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*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 JUL 1980 0522-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #1
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Tuesday, 1 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 1

  Today's Topics: TZone Episode Guide, Physics Imaginary - MT, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 July 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Twilight Zone Episode Guide [ approx. length = 73K chars ]

The Twilight Zone Episode Guide is now ready for distribution.
And just in time for the people going to the TZFF.  Copies of
the Guide have been established in files at the sites listed
below. Everyone should obtain the file from the site which is
most convenient for them. If you are unable to do so, please
send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to
make sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods for providing
space for the materials on their systems, to Jon again for Rutgers
logistic support, and to Saul and Lauren for the labor that went
into preparing the episode guide. 

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI        AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS TWZNEG
PARC-MAXC     [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLovers-TZGuide.Txt
Rutgers       PS:<Solomon>Twilight-Zone.Episode-Guide
SU-AI         TZGUID[T,DON]
MIT-Multics
   >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>twilight-zone-episode-guide

 [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

ALAN@MIT-MC 06/30/80 12:29:18 Re: Matter Transmitters

The distinction has been made between matter transmitters that
actually transmit the matter and those that just transmit the
necessary information.

Presuming for the moment that we aren't going to violate (or make
convenient modifications to) any familiar conservation laws, like
conservation of mass/energy, then just how might the former mode of
transmission (matter mode) operate?  Well, we already have several
such transmitters already, like cars, trains, planes and even feet. I
presume these don't interest us very much at the moment, so I will add
the restriction to the definition of "matter transmitters" that we all
almost certainly have in mind: transmission must take place at (or at
least near) the speed of light.  There is this problem with traveling
at the speed of light: you cannot be carrying any mass with you. So
it would seem that the only way for a matter transmitter, that we
would really feel was transmitting matter, to work would be for it to
convert the mass of the object to be transmitted into energy, transmit
that (don't stand in the way!), and reconvert the energy to mass at
the other end.

How about the other mode (information mode), how could that work?
For one thing it takes a certain amount of energy to transmit any
information; and there is a limit to just how much information you
can send using a given foot-pound. I would guess that to send all
the information in something as complex as a human would take a fair
amount of energy. Perhaps the same amount as was necessary in the
last paragraph?

My physics fails me here, but perhaps someone might be able to provide
some real insight here.  My intuition is that there really is very
little difference between these two modes of matter transmission. In
information mode, you might still have the original object in your
hands after you have sent its information to Alpha Centauri, but you
have the problem of how to produce enough energy to send all that
information (Hmmm... I have this worthless object that I have to
dispose of, and I seem to remember that E=mc^2, and this object
feels pretty heavy...).

Perhaps in information mode you don't have to send ALL the information
in a person, perhaps you can send a fairly high-level description
(somewhere between "5'2'', blue eyes" and "1 pink quark at location
69.105, 00.123...") and still be certain that the person emerging at
the other end will remember his own name.

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 06/30/80 19:28:22 Re: matter transmitters

OK, I'll bite.

There may be no way to distinguish between (1) actually sending the
matter from one place to another, and (2) breaking down the matter in
one place and building it up at another using different particles. It
seems to me that there is no way to "tag" an electron or a proton so
that you can later see whether such-and-such an electron is the "same"
one as the one that was in the original matter.  In Lisp jargon,
perhaps particles do not have EQ-ness in some sense.

If you want to worry about whether a new human being, created by
a teleporter that works by scanning, passing information, and
rebuilding, is the "same" person or not, you may wish to consider
the related (but certainly not identical) problem of what happens
when you grow a clone of a person and replay a recording of that
person's memories into the clone. John Varley has done a good job of
presenting this, although without too much speculation about "souls";
see the truly excellent short story "The Phantom Of Kansas" (is that
the right name?), as well as his novel "The Ophiuchi Hotline".

I don't much care to debate whether such a new person has a "soul"; I
consider that question pretty meaningless.  An important question is
whether he has *rights*: life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, freedom
of speech, etc. I think the answer is clearly "yes" and I doubt many
people would disagree (maybe I'm wrong about that). A really hard and
by no means ethereal question is what about property?  Think of the
complex laws and customs we have regarding care of children; it is
legally defined that parents take custody of children, but who is
responsible for a newly-created adult who has a full set of memories?
Varley mostly just outlaws them (clones are instantly put to death --
I guess he does NOT think they have rights!), and then has fun with
people who break the law by creating such clones.

Some of the answers to these questions may also apply to artificially
intelligent creations made in AI labs.  Do they have rights?  Who is
responsible for them?  And the real kicker: is it immoral to hurt
them?  (Could a human get a life imprisonment sentence for wiping out
all the software of an AI machine?) Drawing analogies and comparisons
between teleportation, clones plus memory playback, and AI machines
might help clarify the issues. (It also might overflow SF-Lovers for
the next month...)

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/01/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 30 June 1980 10:41-EDT
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  TESB Problems

Problems of scale (ala ST:TMP) didn't bother me as much as outright
post-production flaws in the mattes near the end of the film.  Most
noticeable was the obvious contrast problem in some of the scenes
inside the cloud city which also had exterior backgrounds.

Also, if it does say something like "long ago and far far away," then
what's to say that we are not viewing something from an historian's
viewpoint of our future (as in Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love").
(This might either tend to resolve the technological inconsistences
in the film, or add fuel to that discussion.)

On another note: maybe there should be something done to augment our
rating system...it was probably the cleanest PG film I ever saw - not
one "bad" word in it.  Except for the so-called "violence" in this
fantasy (and in particular the rather bloodless cutting off of Luke's
hand - which turned off my kids), I didn't mind having them see the
film.  On the other side, there are PG-rated films which virtually
demand an adult preview to determine how much "parental discretion" I
should use - namely language and even brief nudity.  Clearly SW and
TESB does not belong with the other PGs I have seen.  Yet this makes
it difficult to refuse a child to view some other PG "because you let
us see SW and TESB and they were PG, why not this one?", etc.  (The
particular child in this case is a nine-year-old girl...) --Frank

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1980 0751-PDT (Monday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: TESB

     In the new issue of, I think, Starlog, Harrison Ford is
interviewed.  Although I only skimmed the interview at the newsstand,
two points caught my attention.  First, evidently Ford is certain to
appear in Episode VI, about which story he claims to know nothing at
all.  And second, it was apparently Ford's own idea to change Han's
last line.  They shot it both ways, and evidently Ford's version was
the one that stuck.  And incidentally, my vote goes for the line as
shown, not as written.  It's more in character, and rounds the scene
off better.
	Mike

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1980 at 1134-PDT
From: chesley at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Parsecs

As I was rewatching "Forbidden Planet" last night on video-tape, I
remembered the origin of my explanation of "in under n parsecs" (from
Star Wars). [ SFL V1 #86 ] When asked what it would take to contact HQ
for further instructions, Captain Adams says, "Fundamentally, it's a
question of crude power: how to short circuit the continuum on a four
or five parsec level." Could the SW quote be an allusion to FP?

	--Harry...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 JUL 1980 0552-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #2
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Wednesday, 2 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 2

   Today's Topics: Physics Imaginary - MT, Movies - Ratings & TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  1 July 1980 2226-EDT (Tuesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: Matter Transmission

hmmm,
it seems to me that irrelevant of whether or not you send the matter
or just the info, you have to worry about how to insure the data gets
there...if you consider that sending something will take lots of
energy, sending (for instance) parity and correction will take lots
more...then you still have problems with that random radiation from
nearby suns etc...EXCEPT...(and I will probably be corrected if this
is wrong, but) why not use neutrino's...the people who are looking for
them don't seem to be able to find very many of them, so there is not
much of a problem due to background pollution, and since they seem to
have no problems passing through most objects there would be not much
of an interference problem either...

now to solve to energy requirements...if you could somehow record
the state info about the object in question whilst simultaneously
converting it to energy, which could then be used either as the
message itself, or to power the message sending device...hmmm...

					Doug

------------------------------

Date: 1 July 1980 01:25-PDT
From: Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Reference on matter transmission

I won't give my two cents worth (if it is that valuable) but rather
point out that Arthur C. Clarke has an EXCELLENT discussion of the
subject (he calls it teleportation) in Profiles of the Future, which
was issued as a revised edition in 1973 (the original came out in
1961) and should be available without much hassle. He approaches the
subject from a variety of angles, including rumors of teleportation
through psychic powers, or the application of will, and a description
of a television as Leonardo Da Vinci might have designed it and the
relationship of this design to the technology of the 15th century. He
points out that any speculations about highly desired but currently
imposssible devices are limited by the technology available at the
time. Imagine James Clerk Maxwell conceiving of the atomic bomb.
Profiles of the Future also discusses a wide variety of possible
developments in the future, including a discussion on artificial
intelligence which is still very relevant 20 years later.

                                                  --  Robert

------------------------------

Date:  1 July 1980 11:25 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  rights of AI programs/systems

And if they sentenced you for wiping the "mind" of an AI machine,
would the judge suspend your sentence if you could come up with a
recent enough backup tape?

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/02/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following 2 messages are the last messages in this digest. The
first message discusses the movie rating system and briefly mentions
an incident in Star Wars. The second message mentions a "nit" about
The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not seen these movies may
not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 01 JUL 1980 1453-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: rating the PG's

  I wonder how many people will point out the allegedly common
knowledge that Lucas was offered his choice of G or PG ratings
for SW 4 and elected to include the shot of a sabered-off arm in
the cantina to be sure of a PG rating, allegedly because everyone
knows that a G is a killer for any movie not primarily targeted
at subteens and the Bible Belt?
  As far as I'm concerned, the problem is not the exact definition
of the ratings but their existence, which represents a surrender to
the forces of censorship that should have died with the Hays Office.
The current system was not intended to fall into the divisions we
now see but the hangovers from the 50's into the mid-60's (when the
rating system was introduced--and some of them, like Jack Valenti,
are still hanging over) made it that way. (If any of you are still
uncertain after that blast about my opinion of censors, especially
when disguised under such titles as Network VP for Standards, see
Ben Bova's THE STARCROSSED, a howlingly funny, thinly-fictionalized
version of the processes by which Harlan Ellison's brainchild, THE
STARLOST, was turned into perhaps the worst piece of SF ever put on
the boob tube.)
   The current rating system works something like this: everything
from LITTLE MURDERS to the latest Russ Myers gets an R, only the
rawest material is stuck with an X (including some items of far less
salaciousness than Myers, such as LAST TANGO IN PARIS) (thus making
X a killer rating --- even FLESH GORDON wiggled and squeezed and cut
13 minutes (roughly) to get an R after its first release), PG is the
dump, and G is almost exclusively restricted to Disney and similar
inanities --- the hypersensitivity of the early raters meant that
only something with Disney's squeaky cleanness could get a G, and
by the time the standards relaxed the prime market (adolescents) had
concluded that G was only for squares, and the marketing "experts"
that run too much of everything now followed suit. In England they
have a system with similar markers, except that they are called
U(nlimited), A, AA, and X (AA limited to 14 and over, A for 5 and
over --- the book of MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL has an amusing
letter concerning the process of getting an AA changed to an A
by deleting certain obscenities while trying to maintain the more
startling or colorful ones); the system is applied with somewhat less
slippage into the middle categories (Russ Myers' latest, here R, are
rated X while SW 4 was rated U). It is ironically amusing to me that
two of our four ratings have become essentially useless, especially
with all of the election-year editorializing about the candidates
trying to occupy the center (and a scathing article in the latest
SATURDAY REVIEW about the process of creating a TV show with no
fragment of excellence but an absolutely minimal level of
objectionability (at least to the average viewer)).
  What we have here, in fact, is rating inflation (the academics among
you may now snicker that someone else has their "problem"). Well, not
quite; grade inflation usually is entirely towards one end (today's
B+, it is alleged, would have been a C- or worse ten years ago) while
the rating inflation has moved toward the center -- but then, school
grades are one of the few scales in which it is still desirable to
occupy an end rather than the center.  The M.I.T. TECH recently
proposed a solution which I think would also work here, with suitable
modifications; given that all these unworthy people (it says here) are
now getting A's, let us subdivide the grade system into A1, A2, A3,
A4, A5; the A's, being observably superfluous, can shortly be dropped,
leaving us a reverse numerical grading system (which may confuse the
hell out of people, since the only other 1-5 scale is the Advance
Placement exams (on which 5 is best), but so what).  When inflation
again overtakes the grading system, with many undeserved 1's, the
system is again subdivided into 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, and in no time
we're back where we started (or \you're/ back where \you/ started;
having taught SF last summer, I'm quite sure that I'll never make a
profession of traditional pedagogy, and I have similar doubts about
becoming a student again).
  The alternate, which I think would be a much better system (and is
therefore virtually certain never to come about), is to go to a twin
system. All of us right-thinking liberals (or nattering nabobs of
negativism, if you don't consider yourself an RTL) hold (in distinct
disagreement with at least the early raters) that violence is at least
as offensive as sex; thus films should be rated independently for both
factors, with at least four divisions in each scale.  (You want an
even number of divisions because otherwise there will be an excessive
tendency to clumping in the middle division; there might also be some
sort of normalizing requirement, i.e. the board would be juggled until
it produced roughly an equal number of assignments to each division
from a year's worth of films.)  How to represent this twin scale is
another matter, though my vote goes for some sort of multiple symbol
(like restaurant or movie quality ratings), awkward as that might be,
because it gets away from the tyranny of words to a supposedly smooth
scale.
  What should the symbols be?  Well, at first thought, the violence
could be rated at 1-3 or 1-5 dripping daggers (or maybe clubs, given
the lack of subtlety in today's flicks) with a dove or flower or a
picture of Bambi (if the rights are available) to indicate a totally
peaceful flick, while the sex could be rated 1-3 or 1-5 nipples, with
Jack Armstrong or a cow in a bra to indicate no overt offensiveness.
Anyone who says this is impossible underrates the ingenuity of the
average newspaper publisher; even the lowly above-mentioned TECH was
using for some time an inverse rating system in which a film was
rated from 5 to 1 turkeys while a terrific film got a no-turkeys sign
(turkey overlaid with circle and bar dexter, the international traffic
negation symbol).  I think they finally gave it up when too many
theaters protested.

------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 07/01/80 14:01:04 Re: TESB bug.

Dear friends, in each of our hearts there lurks the soul of a
nitpicker. Not to be outdone, I have a small nit to pick with
TESB. When Han is about to be "carbon-frozen" (whatever that
means) his hands have been tied in front of him.  But when Han
Solid emerges from the freezing chamber, his hands are held up
to about shoulder level. We were distracted by the Romantic
Dialogue, but you didn't expect to slip that one by us forever,
did you?

   ---Wechsler

P. S. During the ground battle, there were little bipedal walkers
      scurrying around (not people, but machines).  They looked
      pretty useless.  What were they?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 JUL 1980 0507-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #3
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Thursday, 3 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 3

  Today's Topics:   TZFF Short Subjects, SF Books - Dragon's Egg,
                  Physics Imaginary - MT, SF Movies - Ratings & TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1980 1352-PDT (Wednesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: TZFF - short subjects

Special Announcement Regarding TZFF ...

SHORT SUBJECTS

I have arranged for several short subjects to be shown at the TZFF.
These include:

   1) HARDWARE WARS -- the classic satire of "Star Wars" with
                       kitchen utensils.
   2) POWERS OF TEN -- explore the universe via 24 powers of 10.
   3) KICK ME       -- a rather bizarre animated short.

Hope these will make the TZFF even more enjoyable for all.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 02 Jul 1980 0742-PDT
From: James P. McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Nits picked from DRAGON'S EGG

I just got around to reading DRAGON'S EGG.  It is probably one of the
best hard science fiction novels I've ever read.  I thought the human
characterization was weak in places (not enough introspection, lack of
diversity of characters), but clearly Bob knows about the scientific
establishment!  Actually, I thought that the alien characters were
better drawn.

But there is a nit to pick, which I do not believe I have seem
mentioned in SFL. With a very high gauss field, not to mention the
dense atmosphere, would not there be some strange optical effects?
The atmosphere should make for strange refraction patterns, similar
to those on Venus, where the horizon curves UP into the sky. And the
high gauss EM field should make optical effects dependent upon the
direction you are observing them. If this is correct, then the optics
practiced on the DRAGON'S EGG must be far more complicated than were
presented in the book.

The only real mention I recall of strange optics were those at the
poles, which were attributed to relativity. Are they the EM effects
mentioned above?  Or were they effects due to the high gravity
(acceleration) at the surface?  (I believe the distinction here
is between the special and the general realitivity effects).

------------------------------

Date:  2 Jul 1980 2211-PDT
From: Mike Peeler (MDP at SAIL) <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Teleportation

    The ideal teleporter moves things from place to place
instantaneously.  Now, about the best we can hope for is to beam
things at the speed of light, which takes a certain amount of time.
We can do this in two ways: we can either beam the matter itself,
or we can beam a representation of it.

    On second thought, these two ways do not seem to be very different
after all. Because matter cannot travel at the speed of light, we have
to convert the mass to energy and then back again.  This amounts to
encoding and decoding it. Yet, one kind of transporter produces a copy
of the original object, and even if we destroy one of them we still
have two objects at one point, whereas another kind of transporter
destroys the original in the process of sending it.  I am not sure
whether I would be appalled at or consoled by having a backup copy of
me!  Even if we always have only one object, though, there is no way
to make sure that the matter received is precisely the same matter as
we sent. (``Sure it looks like him and acts like him, but is it really
him?'')  Like particles cannot be distinguished.  If two identical
particles collide, we cannot tell which ends up going which way; we
cannot even be sure that we end up with the same particles we started
out with.

     Nonetheless, we can still profit from the distinction as
separating different approaches to the problem.  When we encode
something, there are lots of ways we can go about it. There are
straightforward codes and there are tricky ones, some abbreviate a
lot and some only a little, some codes lose information (which would
have to be reconstructed) and some are highly redundant. In fact, it
is misleading to think of any encoding as sending \the/ information,
because there is an infinite variety of representations. However,
some teleportation systems might concentrate on extracting only
certain ``pertinent'' information, while others would collect it all
indiscriminately. This corresponds roughly to the distinction between
digital and analog.  Possible advantages of digitizing include saving
space that would be taken up by ``irrelevant'' information, and having
great flexibility to manipulate and alter the data in precise ways.
On the other hand, information can often be packaged more compactly
in analog form than in digital, and usually some natural mechanism
makes the analog device easier to perfect than the digital device.

     In the case of teleporting people, I would prefer to be as
inflexible as possible. I want to always end up exactly the same as
I started out, or at least to the extent that I feel no threat to
my identity. We do not yet know what is the ``pertinent'' part of a
person, and I want to take as little chance as possible of omitting
some insignificant detail that sparks me to be me. It is that feeling
of continuity as an entity, me, that keeps my private universe from
flickering out, and it is the only thing that tempers the inevitable
nothingness of nonexistence for me.

     You know, I don't think I'm quite ready to try out that there
transporter just yet, however it works.

(MDP CDR)

------------------------------

KED@MIT-MC 07/02/80 12:25:22

     Enough of this information transfer proposal!!  Time to do a
little physics and a little math. The body consists of about 10^28
particles. It is actualy more, but i am kind today. The position of
each particle will have to be specified to at least 10 significant
digits, as well as the momentum. That is 10 digits in base ten of
course. Anyway, about 10^30 bits of information have to be sent, at
the bare minimum. Does anybody have a proposal for a system that can
do that? Of course not! Enough said?

------------------------------

Date:  2 JUL 1980 1055-PDT
From: AYERS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Movies and 'X' Ratings

I wasn't going to get into this one, but I've got to mention that an
interview with Valenti appeared a while back in which he said that the
movie Clockwork Orange got its 'X' for the sex, NOT the violence!!!

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1980 11:22 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: movie ratings

Indeed, a local paper here also uses pictures of turkeys.  I would
like to see a rating system for different elements too (e.g., sex,
violence, whatever) 'cause I have no desire whatsoever to see
something that's going to make me sick every time I think of it for
the next six months.  A short huzzah for the San Jose Mercury News,
which publishes a movie guide periodically and, in addition to the
ratings, indicates WHY the rating was assigned.

Karen

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/03/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1980 1008-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: TESB problems:  scale & aim

Particularly annoying scale problem: the Millenium Falcon swooping up
from under a huge cloud, nearly as big as the cloud, when we know how
big it's supposed to be from close up: the size of a small house.

Aim: studies done by the Army Medical Corps during and after WW II
showed that American soldiers didn't take three quarters of their
opportunities to fire their guns (not artillery, their own rifles
and handguns) at the enemy when they had him in their sights. I've
read speculation that this reflects our populist tradition, and really
shows how good-hearted the American boy truly is. (I paraphrase.) One
thing our war in Viet-Nam provided us was a proving ground for new
methods of training, and the Army now proudly boasts that they can
turn out a soldier who will fire at the enemy at least two thirds of
the time.

Yay.

But my original point wasn't that they did or didn't fire; it was that
no one seems able to hit anything important ...  and with recoilless
weapons, even!

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1980 10:55 am PDT (Wednesday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: TESB bug

No fair creating your own nits just so you can pick them!  So what if
Han's hands are tied in front of him?  He can still raise them up
(together) in a vain attempt to ward off his doom.  It's not as if his
hands were separated when he emerged.  Sheesh!  Go pick another nit!

	-- Don.  

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1980 at 2221-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB Transcription ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We weren't ignoring MJL at MIT-MC's request for the text of the
roll-up at the beginning of SW-5, but I only got it recorded Sat.
nite, to augment the audio tape of the sound track which the "Texas
Consortium" IS in the process of transcribing.  Already, the duel
scenes, when studied in detail, have raised a conundrum to add to
the "What's the other hope?", "IS Vader Luke's father?" and "How
will the romantic triangle be resolved?" questions.

This new question, for pondering on by those of you who go to see
TESB before I get the relevant scenes fully described, is--

   WHY DOES VADER MAKE SUCH A CAT-AND-MOUSE GAME OF THE DUEL?

Repeatedly he "disappears", Luke goes looking for him, and he
reappears from (usually?) behind Luke, to re-engage in the duel.
More details on this point, another time.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 JUL 1980 0547-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #4
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Friday, 4 July 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 4

       Today's Topics: Physics Imaginary - MT, SF Movies - TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  3 Jul 1980 0630-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-1
Subject: Teleportation/Information Transfer

Yeah, of course we can't send 10^30 bits NOW, and the exact method of
transmitting it quickly enough, and with less energy expenditure than
the output of a sun or two doesn't exist NOW, but we ARE talking about
the *future* and about *fiction* [ and remember never to let the facts
stand in the way of a good story... ]

How about the possibility that you might NOT want to reassemble in
exactly the same way on receipt? If one wants a nose job, one could
perhaps go to the friendly local plastic/information surgeon and
step in and out of the surgeon's special-purpose MT, with the nose
particles rearranged just as desired...

------------------------------

Date:  3 Jul 1980 1229-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: more on matter transmission

No, it's not clear that you would need to send ten to the thirtieth
bits to transmit a human being. The uncertainty principle would
prevent you from knowing the positions and velocities of all the
particles in the body to ten places in any case. Human bodies are
pretty much the same from one example to the next, and a handy
code already exists for describing them in the form of DNA. Add a
few megabits for tans, scars, moustaches etc. and you're all set.
Transmitting the contents of the brain probably requires sending
the state of every synapse in it, of which there are ten to the
fourteenth, give or take an order of magnitude. Sending this to
Alpha Centauri with an Arceibo sized antenna on both ends at 3
GHz with a signal to noise ratio of 1, and with only the galactic
background noise to contend with requires about fifty trillion
joules, which isn't too bad. That's about 14 hours output of your
average billion watt power plant. Sort of rules out commuting,
though. 

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 07/03/80 19:50:55 Re: Matter transmitters

In response to KED: so every time you walk across a room, you have
transmitted 10^30 bits of information.  Yes, it is impractical to
send people in the form of information down a 9600 baud phone line,
but the theoretical limits of information transfer rate, since we
are hardly setting ANY such limits on ourselves in a general
discussion of teleporters, is nothing like that.

The previous letter in yesterday's SF-Lovers said "the speed of
light is the best we can hope to do" in the first paragraph, but
then somehow started assuming in the second paragraph that ANY
matter transmitter must transmit at the speed of light. Why set
this restriction?

I assume that our working definition of a teleporter or matter
transmitter is simply "anything that acts like the devices that
generally get called that in SF books", rather than more technical
definitions involving "no transmission of non-zero-rest-mass
particles is allowed". Arguments based on unjustified assumptions
are never very convincing.

------------------------------

Date:  2 July 1980 1822-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: MT

There is one form of MT I did not see discussed in the last few
issues, which is the actual transfer of the matter, rather than
information. Many stories are either explicit about this
("Dimensional gates" of various sorts; the first one I recall
like this was Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky") and even more just
have it as an underlying assumption ... which may or may not be
relevant to the story. It does have the advantage of eliminating
all those nasty problems, such as bandwidth, redundancy, "soul",
and what to do with the original...
					joe

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Matter transmission - some relevant references

Rogue Moon by Algis Budrys, available in the SF Hall of Fame V2B

  Algis Budrys' story "Rogue Moon" deals with the philosophical
  problems and psychological consequences of a deliberate use of
  an informational matter transmitting aparatus to duplicate people.
  It is a profound and unsettling oeuvre; highly recommended to all
  those who have not read it already.       --  KGH <Sorceror at LL>

All the Myriad Ways by Larry Niven

  I'm surprised no one has mentioned it to date, but I think Larry
  Niven has probably said most of what there is to be said about MT.
  In "All the Myriad Ways" he has an article about it, and in many of
  his short stories it is a central feature (c.f. the floating riot
  clubs, the new types of murders, etc.)    -- Jim <JHENDLER at BBNA>

"One Way from New York" by Lee Robinson (short story),
  available in Analog (July 1979)

  A horrible description in a couple recent stories (I think in ASF,
  but perhaps Galaxy or IASFM), the "originals" are in fact "murdered"
  once the copy is known to have successfully arrived and the MT
  people keep this fact a deep secret. One story is based on this
  sticky metaphysical issue: one of the attendants develops a
  conscience which tells him that this is indeed murder, and...well,
  I don't want to generate a spoiler. -- Joe <Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A>

The Complete Venus Equilateral by George O. Smith (collection)

  This message is really to recommend 'Venus Equilateral' by
  George O. Smith, which is about a group of engineers who spend
  most of their time drinking and designing things on tablecloths.
  There are a couple of stories in the book about matter transmitters
  and their consequences. One idea is that one can record an object on
  something like a disk of metal; bars would keep a record collection
  of vintage scotch etc... The economy falls apart until the good guys
  invent some stuff that blows up when you try to scan it.
                                      -- Larry <LStewart at PARC-MAXC>

"There is a Crooked Man" by Jack Wodhams (short story),
  available in Analog (Feb 67) and Analog 7

  The replication of people by MT devices is a frequent story line.
  One such story is "There is a Crooked Man" by Jack Wodhams (Analog,
  Feb 67, reprinted in Analog 7) but the incident is a minor one in
  one of many scenarios of the story. -- Joe <Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A>

Here's the Plot, What's the Title?

  Also, what was the name of that fine story about the aliens who
  tried to ruin the Earth's economy by introducing duplicators? The
  protagonist is a department store manager who adapts to the new
  conditions by noon.                 -- Larry <LStewart at PARC-MAXC>

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/04/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 1980 2121-PDT
From: Yeager at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: TESB

Some immediate impressions after seeing TESB for the second time:

1. Darth Vader is NOT Luke's father.
   I think that OBK and Yoda both knew that Luke would not complete
   his initial training but that they wanted to teach him as much
   as possible so that he would be able to avoid being turned to
   the dark side of the force.

   The cave scene where Luke saw his own image inside of DV's helmet
   simply said that Luke was very vulnerable to the dark side of the
   force.

2. Leia is the other.
   It simply "feels" like the best way for things to work out. I
   think both she and Luke will return to Yoda and complete their
   respective Jedi training.

   She was tortured and apparently (as someone mentioned) not
   particularly affected by it. Not only does she sense Luke is
   in distress near the end of the film, but knows just where he
   is...a bit more than a hunch.

3. There were at least 4 women on the ice planet.

4. The gunsights had some numeric code on the left side and glyphs
   on the right that could be alien.  Some sort of fallout like
   shelter was marked with apparently alien writing (I think these
   were mentioned before).

----- Not very new observations for sure, but I don't think
      everything is as mysterious as we'd like to believe.

------------------------------

JWP@MIT-MC 07/04/80 00:30:35 Re: Nitpicking TESB

     If ACW was looking close enough instead of being distracted by
"the romance", he would have seen that a guard took off the handcuffs
before Han was put into the chamber.  The glimpse of the guard was
very brief and hard to see. I thought the same thing after seeing
TESB for my first time, but looked for it my second and saw the guard.

			Sorry ACW,
				-JWP-

------------------------------

Date:  3 Jul 1980 (Thursday) 1119-EST
From: DYER at NBS-10
Subject: TESB - 'Cat and Mouse Duel'

     It would not have been as exciting to see Vader walk up to Luke,
flick on his lightsaber, say "Hi, son!", and then lop off Luke's hand
[or whatever].  Personally I thought that, next to the 'Freezing
scene', the duel between Vader & Luke was one of the best parts of the
Movie.  The Cat & Mouse business was A) a lead into the scene in which
Luke discovers the 'truth' [DON'T give me a hard time about that!]
about his father, and B) exciting to the audience.  Admit it, how many
of you were on the edges of your seats (figurtively, anyway...) during
that scene the first time you saw TESB?

     By the by, I am sure that we have all had enough of this "I've
got a new candidate for 'the other hope'", and the "Who is Luke's
father, \really/" stuff.  Face it; George Lucas can do anything he
damn well pleases.  Who says that Lucas has to do something sensible?
Its his universe....

     I would be dissapointed if SW6 were to be completely dependent
on the sort of plot twists that are in SW5. I think that discovering
that "person-x is person-y's father, but is also person-z's clone of
a clone of a . . ." belongs in normal daytime soap opera, and not in
megadollar motion pictures.

-lmd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 JUL 1980 0526-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #5
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Saturday, 5 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 5

  Today's Topics: Physics Imaginary - MT, SF Movies - Ratings & TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  4 JUL 1980 0828-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: WATTS PER BIT.

     In a little side issue on matter transmission:  How much energy
is the theoretical minimum needed to send a bit of information?  I
have a U.S. patent on a device that seems to indicate that there is
no minimum, but I know better than to expect that Mother Nature will
allow me to get away with it.  The basic idea is an extreme form of
pulse position modulation. The transmitter sends two very short pulses
separated by a good fraction of an hour (1000 seconds).  The receiver
measures the time interval between the two pulses in nanoseconds (or
picoseconds if the pulses are sharp enough), then converts that number
of 10^12 or 10^15 into its binary representation, then reads the
number as if it were a message.
     Anyone out there know of some good reference as to a theoretical
minimum for the number of watts per bit?

          Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date:  2 July 1980 0138-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Mike Inners at CMU-10A (C621MI10)
Subject: Matter Transmission

There are a number of methods of matter transmission I can think of
(plausible methods, not known methods!):

1) Transportation of the object (or more likely, the space containing
   the object), exchanging it with the space at the target.  Would
   probably require equipment at both ends. Sort of a 'cut and paste'
   method...
2) Transmission of the information needed to construct the original,
   with or without destroying the original, and using a source of
   energy at the destination to construct a copy. No matter how you
   handle this one, it will be a matter duplicator.  Even if you
   destroy the original, there is nothing to prevent the receiver
   from storing the information and churning out duplicates as
   long as energy is available, perhaps without the knowlege of
   the transmitter. Imagine someone 'pirating' a copy of YOU by
   tapping into a signal you are beaming along...
3) Conversion of an object into energy (directly) and transmitting
   the energy to a receiver which reconstructs the matter. Has the
   important advantage of not requiring a large power source at the
   receiver, but avoiding signal attenuation would be a big problem.
   (Can you imagine what would happen of you lost even 1 atom in
   a million? A good number (most) of your DNA chains would have
   defects or breaks...)  Especially convenient if the breakdown
   of the original can be used to modulate the outgoing energy so
   as to provide the necessary direction for reassembly.

Any method of matter transmission would have to overcome the problem
of errors in transmission.  The number of bits required to describe
even a small molecule, including electronic, nuclear, vibrational,
and rotational states.  If you are going to move a living organism,
and don't want to poison it, you need to make sure that reactions in
progress aren't disrupted.  Cargo probably wouldn't suffer more than
a bit of radioactivity if you don't transmit the nuclear state.

Cut and pasting probably has the fewest unpleasant side effects
and smallest problem with noise, but I can't see a basis in
current physical theory for doing it.

	-- Mike

------------------------------

DMM@MIT-ML 07/04/80 15:09:49 RE: Movie Ratings...

Then there's the rating system used in Dallas...The Dallas film board
assigns their own rating in addition to the usual G,PG,R, or X. This
consists of either "Suitable for all audiences", "Not suitable", or,
"Suitable with exceptions: S,L,V,D,N, and/or P" which stand for Sex,
Language, Violence, Drugs, Nudity, and Perverse Behavior. (Let's hear
it for Perverse Behavior!)

These are generally used only on PG films, as all R films seem to get
an automatic "Not Suitable", and G's seem to always get "Suitable".
Of course, some films seem to get Suitable with exceptions SLVDNP,
which doesn't seem that different from "Not suitable". Of course,
it's still not as bad as the good old Legion of Decency Ratings...

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/05/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  4 Jul 1980 2342-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe <CCIS.JAFFE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Origin of Dagobah

A friend of mine and I uncovered an interesting piece of trivia the
other day while reading a passage from Arthur C. Clarke's "View from
Serendip". In the passage he mentions Buddhist shrines or "dagobas".
This poses an interesting point since "dagoba" means "shrine of
knowledge" and the Buddhist word "yohda" means "learned master".

------------------------------

Date:  1 Jul 1980 at 0114-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^ THE PATERNITY QUESTION: SOME TANGENTIAL DATA ^^^^^^^^^^

As I have said earlier, \intellectually/, I can't accept Vader's
paternity, but the emotional impact of the relevant lines as spoken
by Jones and Hamill is so strong that I fear it is probably true.
(Dave Prowse, according to My Friend The Ultimate SW Fan, thinks
it's true. So does she.) So I modified my original strongly negative
position to maintain merely that whether the claim is true or just a
red herring, it is a RECENT addition to the plot line. If, as we know
from McQuarrie's early drawings, Luke's role was originally that of a
girl, Lucas is capable of making VERY great changes as he goes along.

I have just now come across some support for my "recency" hypothesis.
The idea for raising the paternity issue occurred somewhere between
Leigh Brackett's initial outline of the TESB plot and 4th draft of the
shooting script.  None of the relevant lines (the claim itself or the
"Son...", "Father..." interchange) are in our 4th draft script, but
where the claim should be is a unique note to the effect that further
dialogue is to be added at that point.

That the paternity issue post-dates Brackett's original outline comes
from Bill Warren's film news columns in FANTASY NEWSLETTER #25 & #26,
June & July, 1980. He had been employed by the executors of Brackett's
estate to sort and catalogue her papers, in the process of which he
came across that outline.  There was nothing at all in it about the
paternity--he was as surprised as anybody when he saw it in the film!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SCENES LEFT OUT OF TESB ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Further from Bill Williams' July FANTASY NEWSLETTER film news column:

In Leigh Brackett's outline were scenes of "Luke riding to the rescue
of Han and Leia on the back of a flying manta ray-like creature, and
a glimpse of Darth Vader's palace -- black iron in a sea of lava. ...
Some scenes that were shot but left out of the movie included more
action with the ice monsters. ... Apparently the snow monster suits
didn't work very well.... Also, ... a couple of semi-romantic scenes
between Luke and Leia, and her line commenting on how Luke looks
almost the same after the damage done to his face by the snow monster
-- which was to explain the fact that Mark Hamill actually \does/
look different than he did in the first movie."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "BIPEDAL" WALKERS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Have you ever SEEN a chicken running around with its head cut off? It
DOES happen.  It was a clever touch, I thought, to have that portion
of dismembered Walker scuttle around as mindlessly as the proverbial
chicken.  (Presumably there were separate and independent motors for
the front and back pairs of legs, sort of like 4-wheel drive on a
Terran vehicle, to make them as adaptable as their alternate name
implied -- All Terrain Armored Transport.)

------------------------------

Date:  1 July 1980 2232-EDT (Tuesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: reference of other works in TESB

sometime later in the movie, when C3PO was in the 'con' of the MF and
Chewie was there, though I don't know if anyone one else was as C3PO
was leaving I thought I heard him say:

	What do you expect from an overgrown Muppet

though I can't be sure if the last word was Puppet or Muppet since
it was said very softly...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 JUL 1980 0723-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #6
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Sunday, 6 July 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 6

 Today's Topics:               Physics Imaginary - MT,
                 SF Books - Tech Development Query & Misc Responses,
                    SF Movies - Blues Brothers & Airplane & TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

DERWAY@MIT-AI 07/05/80 06:53:45 Re: Matter Transmission.

Does anyone remember the MAD magazine satire of Star Trek?  At one
point they seem to be having troubles with the transporter, and when
Kirk beams down, he ends up grossly rearranged; his face is where he
normally sits. I don't remember where the appendage that is normally
there was. "You'd better get that transporter fixed soon, Scotty. My
face is getting a tremendous urge to sit down."

Can we achieve immortality this way?  Well of a rather limited
variety. You could protect yourself against accidental death by
making a recording of yourself each night.  (See Varley's story
"The Phantom of Kansas" in his collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION,
for a treatment of this idea, though it is achieved through memory
recording, and cloning).  If you keep backup copies, when you get
cancer or something, the doctor could back you up to where it is
curable, or maybe even to before you came in contact with whatever
caused the disease.  And finally, when you get real old, you can
back up to 24 years old, or whenever and start all over, but of
course, you don't get all that experience that you had accumulated
in the last body. Oh well.

------------------------------

STEVEH@MIT-MC 07/05/80 18:15:39 Re: Matter Transmission

I find it interesting to read all of the hubbub about the feasibility
of matter transmission. Many people say that it denies all physical
laws, etc.  I can point out that there are more than a few points of
history that "knew" all of the physical laws, but Ma Nature keeps
throwing in quirks and quarks to teach her children manners. This
is a SF mailing list and it appalls me to see such inflexibility.
Instead of showing each other how this thing can never happen, I
would have expected more from this audience.  Something along the
line of, "If it is to work, we must solve the <fill in the blank(s)>
problem". An awful lot of progress has come about because we didn't
let our "knowledge" that something isn't possible get in our way.

I'm getting dizzy from being on my high horse so long, so on to
better things.

			Steve

------------------------------

Date:  2 Jul 1980 0722-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: telep>	                >ortation

If matter transmitters work by breaking down/analysing an object and
having it built up again at the other end, I personally wouldn't ride
in one of them.  Trusting your life to something that had to be that
complex and handle that much power would be like putting the national
defense and the administration of justice in the hands of the federal
government. I agree that there wouldn't be much difference in trans-
mitting the actual mass as energy and transmitting all the information
-- remember Maxwell's Demon (ie its information-theoretic solution).
The only rationale I can think of for matter transmission that
strikes my admittedly arbitrary fancy is "tunnelling" -- although
how one would go about it remains obscure. Presumably one induces
all the subatomic particles in the object to tunnel coherently to
the destination ("tunnel coherently?" well...).  Unless you can
assume that this is doable by some kind of catalyst effect, the
amount of power (not to mention information-handling capability)
implied by the feat completely blows away all the "peripheral
technology" I've seen in any story.

That pushes one of my buttons: coherency of technology, and the
fact that few sf writers seem able to grasp any idea of technological
development.  This century has seen the crossover point where the
physical power available to a person via technology surpassed that
of his body (at least, on the average and in this country). I imagine
the next will see a similar crossover with respect to information
handling ability. What happens when you put orders of magnitude
into the equation?

Request: stories with a coherent sense of technological development,
particularly as impacts the individual. Examples: The City and The
Stars by Clarke; (negative example: Childhood's End, by Clarke,
though as a rule Clarke is the sort of thing I'm looking for;) The
Last Question by Asimov (yes.  although the "point" of the story is
a semantic pun, IA had to draw a sketch of technological development
from here to the ultimate in order to make it); the "bridges rusting"
stories by Niven are in the vein, although they focus closely on
(surprise) the transfer booth.  More as I think of them...

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 5 July 1980  02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: More Responses to the Bibliography Queries

Computers in SF:
----------------

The Mightiest Machine by John Campbell

  John Campbell wrote a book about a machine that came and created
  a utopia on earth ( very bad situation ). The book was called
  "The Mightiest Machine".         -- Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

Imaginary Books:  Date: 24 Jun 1980 1220-EDT
----------------

  Jack Vance makes good use of non-existent text books to give
  overviews of worlds he has created.
                               -- Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

PSI with hints of genetic engineering:
--------------------------------------

Cat's Eye by Andre Norton

  Andre Norton's "Cat's Eye" deals with the hero's ability to
  communicate telepathically with specially bred and imported
  terran animals (two cats, a kinkajou, and two foxes).  The
  animals are telepathic and very intelligent...perfect for
  espionage...except that they are a bit too intelligent for
  human comfort...         -- Haruka Takano <Haruka at SRI-KL>

SF Stories referencing SF:
--------------------------

The Silver Eggheads by Fritz Leiber

  I just recalled this morning that in the book "The Silver
  Eggheads," by Fritz Leiber, there exists a large population
  of robots, co-working among the humans. Just as the humans
  had saints, so did the robots. Among them were Saint Isaac
  and Saint Eando. A nice enough way to refer to past masters
  in robotic development.                    -- <LARKE@MIT-ML>

------------------------------

Date: 5 July 1980 06:13-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: FRANK OZ and THE BLUES BROTHERS

I noticed in the credits that Frank Oz played a character in this film
(as did Carrie Fisher), is this the same Frank Oz of YODA/Muppet fame?

For you satirists...I recommend AIRPLANE...it is a crazy take-off
(pardon the pun) on the AIRPORT disaster films.  I know it isn't SF
but I couldn't help myself!  I will try to control myself next time.
The "Force" just wasn't with me.  ---Bill

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/06/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  5 Jul 1980 at 0436-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PRINTED ENGLISH WORDS IN SW-4 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"POWER" and "TRACTOR BEAM" appear on the gauges where Obi-Wan turns
off what's holding the Millennium Falcon.

------------------------------

Date:  2 July 1980 02:29 edt
From:  SALawrence at MIT-Multics (STEVE at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Powerful Jedi => Immunity from Temptation??

Nonsense.

First of all, Lucas is not a total illiterate, and hence he must have
read the Lord of the Rings. Hence, he knows (Tolkien said so, so it's
true) that the more powerful the character is, the greater is his
peril when dealing with the dark forces (or dark side of the force --
it was all the same force in Tolkien as well, I point out, though this
was made less obvious).

Second, it only makes sense. The more powerful the character is, the
larger his rewards would be were he to become corrupted. Hence, even
though he (presumably) becomes more resistant to temptation as he
becomes more powerful and mature, the temptations he is faced with
grow to match, and more than match, his resistance.

Third, it's too useful a hook to hang plot twists on. Though I
strongly doubt that we'll see a powerful character (such as Yoda)
become corrupted in SW6, that possibility, even if never articulated,
provides a perfect rationalization for keeping the big guns in the
rear. Thus, Yoda \cannot/ "kick ass", as has been proposed on this
list occasionally; the risk, save as an ultimate last resort, would
be far too great. If Yoda were to be corrupted, there'd go the whole
ball of wax. He'd make the Emporer look like a piker.

Fourth, Yoda has already pointed this out. When he said the Force must
only be used for defense, he was not just banging his gums. While the
rule can be bent, characters who break it with impunity do so only at
their peril -- that way lies darkness, the more so as the character
can use the force more powerfully.

As a last point, I'd like it to go on record that Vader is obviously
Luke's father. Remember, the correct background here is not Greek
tragedy, but rather Marvel comic books. They have traditions of their
own. In this case, if one throws in a real shocker of a line at the
end of one episode, one does not casually refute it in the next
episode; the relationship may turn out to be something we wouldn't
call "father-son", but to simply claim Vader was lying would be gross
cheating on Lucas's part.  We won't see that. And second, there is a
tradition in comic books of ambiguous heroes and villains who have
children who become heroes. The latter don't always know it, and when
they find out it's a shock; the idea that the greatest character in
the story is the son of the most wicked villain is certainly not new
to Lucas. Nor, I should add, is the need to stretch some of the
earlier occurences a bit to make later ideas fit.

I'd also explain why I very much doubt we could see Vader reform
before the end of SW9, but this has already grown much too long.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 JUL 1980 0640-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #6
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Monday, 7 July 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 7

  Today's Topics: SF Books - Futurians & Covenant & Cure for Cancer,
                   Alien Intelligence - Influence on Human History,
                       Physics Imaginary - MT, SF Movies - TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  6 Jul 1980 1309-EDT
From: CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS

Has anyone read (or am i just late in reading it) "the Futurians"
by Damon Knight?

Also for the fantasy lovers, I noticed that Stephen Donaldson has a
new Thomas Covenant story out, entitled "The Wounded Land".

steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1980 18:30-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: INFO ON "CURE FOR CANCER" WANTED

Could someone comment on what they thought of this book by Michael
Moorcock?  If there are comments in previous SF-LOVERS editions,
could you direct me to those editions?  Thanks --Bill

[ This book has not been reviewed in SF-LOVERS as yet.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1980 at 1134-PDT
From: chesley at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Ancient astronauts

     While considering the idea that the Easter Island statues
were made by "ancient astronauts" (an idea I don't really take at
all seriously), it occured to me that they were probably made by
intergalactic forgers, who were attempting to forge an existing
work of art. Of course, it took them a few tries, and they left
the unsuccessfull attempts behind. Being lazy forgers, they most
likely got the locals to do the work, which is why the Easter
Island inhabitants still know how to make the statues.
     Has anyone else noticed the influence of extraterrestrial
bad-guys on human history? Or any other influence, for that matter
(is the Bermuda Triangle a space warp into the galactic zoo?).

------------------------------

Date:  6 JUL 1980 2301-EDT
From: RWK at MIT-MC (Robert W. Kerns)
Subject: Watts per bit

It would seem from your two-pulse method that a lower-limit on the
amount of power per bit would imply either a limit to our ability
to measure large time intervals accurately (sort of a time-scale
uncertainty principle (if you know what time it is, you must be
lost?)) or that it must take energy to transmit nothing for an
adequately long period of time.  Perhaps one limit would be where
the probability of a noise spike during the interval of interest
becomes significant.  But perhaps this could be made as low as
necessary by replacing a single pulse with a specific sequence
of pulses, thus adding redundancy and noise immunity beyond the
additional cost in energy.

That sounds like an interesting patent.  What is the patent number?

Philosophically speaking, I don't see any reason why transfer of
information should require more than the transfer of one SOMETHING
per transfer. If the SOMETHING can be massless and energyless, then
so could be your transfer.  Absorbing and encoding information
from/for transfer both probably have some minimun, however.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Jul 1980 1309-EDT
From: CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS

Matter transmission, if it ever comes, will most likely rely on
a completely new way of looking at things. Our current scientific
background is not sufficient for it.

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1980 08:11-EDT
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Tunneling as "MT"

Since it was mentioned...several years ago I worked with a quite sane
genius, although you might not believe that after you read what I am
about to tell you.

He was about 22 or so at the time and had obtained a dual bachelors
degree in math and physics and has since gone on directly to his PhD
in nuclear physics.  He had this idea that you can bring up the
tunneling effect to a large enough scale to transport a small
spaceship as follows:

Surround the ship with a very tight magnetic field to protect the ship
and its occupants and help the random nature of the effect along by
causing a medium fusion detonation.  Since the ship in this field
could not move at "normal" speeds to be propelled out of the area, he
concluded that it must be tunneled to another place instantaneously.
There is much more to this, but this is briefly what I can remember.

There are several ramifications to this (given the hypothesis), when
attempting to pop out at stellar distances, namely the navigational
aspects discussed here before with regard to hyperspace drives.
However, in this scheme, it would be very unlikely to pop out in a
star or planet, since the nature of the effect seeks a lower potential
than the one you left...

At least this is no worse (and perhaps more feasible) than the methods
of MT described so far.

(I'd rather not be directly challenged on the physics of this as my
 memory is hazy on all the details.  I offer this only as food for
 thought and discussion.)  --Frank

------------------------------

JDD@MIT-ML 07/06/80 19:31:25 Re: Matter Transmission

Perhaps, while we're on the subject, we can talk about representative
matter transmission ``technologies'' in various SF stories.  For
example:

On Star Trek (the TV show), it seemed to work on a more-or-less
particle level: McCoy once objected to having his molecules scattered
all over the universe, and bad guys (Nomad, Jack the Ripper, others?)
were gotten rid of by beaming them into deep space at maximum
dispersion. The sparkling effect certainly suggests things happening
on a small scale. I always thought it unusual that such a transmission
could take very non-zero time, especially since the transportees are
conscious of their surroundings in the meanwhile.  In the Motion
Picture we see the problems with accidental rearrangements during the
process.  (Note: I've read that the only reason that the transporter
was invented for Star Trek was because their budget wouldn't allow
shots of the Enterprise landing and taking off on a different planet
every week).

The more satisfying stories I've read (sorry -- no names) involve the
cut-and-paste method.  The idea is that once science progresses to
the point where we really \understand/ the reason an object is HERE
instead of THERE, we can make the switch by twiddling the reason, not
the object.

In Niven's World Out of Time, though, the particle mechanism is used
to support a nice side-effect.  On a future Earth, stepping disks
provide both transportation and continuous rejuvenation by failing to
transmit molecular poisons.

One of the most ridiculous matter-transmission-like stories I've read
(but my name-memory is blank today) involved a scientist who solves
a subway system's problem of tracks having to cross each other at
multiple levels by inventing a computerized gizmo that would let
trains pass through each other automagically, thereby letting all of
the tracks be at the same level.  One day, though, one of the trains
gets stuck in the funny state and doesn't come back.  Only then does
everyone discover the awful truth -- that the computer was
accomplishing all of this (totally unbeknownst to the inventor!) by
storing digital images of the trains and reconstructing them on the
opposite sides of occupied intersections.  Unfortunately, its memory
deteriorated with time (why?), so when they finally got the train
unstuck and its occupants waddled/crept/slithered off, they sort of
wish they hadn't.

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/07/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  5 Jul 1980 0845-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Haruka at SRI-KL>
Subject: TESB: some first impressions.

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in...having read much of this
discussion BEFORE seeing the movie, I wanted to see how I would react
to the issues when I actually went to see it.  As a control, I took
along a friend who is not a SW fan - for that matter, I'm no fanatic
myself.

   1.) By gut feeling, we both agreed that Vader IS Luke's father. My
       brother, who saw it a week earlier, and who has no knowledge of
       SFL, also felt that Vader spoke the truth.

   2.) Leia is probably the other hope.

   3.) The light sabre duel was probably the best part of the movie.
       As to why the cat and mouse game, consider:
       a.) Vader did not want to kill Luke if he could avoid it
           - Luke is much more valuable to him alive;
       b.) Vader was testing Luke on the extent of his current
           training as a Jedi;
       c.) Vader wanted to drive home the fact that he was still
           Luke's superior in terms of combat ability.
       What better way to accomplish the above than a cat and mouse
       game?

Oh, well, none of the above is really anything new...which to me
indicates that we've beaten this dead horse to a pulp already...how
about getting on to other topics?

					Haruka

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1980 14:30-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  TESB Bugs

1) Has anyone out there wondered how Luke finds Yoda? I've heard lots
   of people complaining that it was kind of contrived for Luke to
   land within 20 feet of Yoda, but I've yet to hear any complaints
   about how Luke manages to find the *planet* so easily. Just imagine
   yourself in Luke's position. You're told: "Go to the system of Sol.
   There you will find Roger Duffey, who will add you to the SF-LOVERS
   mailing list."  How easy would it be for you to realize that the
   particular planet you were looking for was Earth?

2) With all this fuss about cloning, has anyone ever considered
   the possibility that the reason no one seems to care about the
   stormtroopers is that they're all clones?  Remember, all the
   st's seem to be the exact same size, etc.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 JUL 1980 0724-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #8
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Tuesday, 8 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 8

 Today's Topics:      Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission,
                 SF Books - Title/Plot & Cure for Cancer & Futurians,
                                   SF Movies - TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07 Jul 1980 1920-PDT
From: JPM at SU-AI
Subject: watts per bit

Bob's technique for sending a message is essentially an implementation
for sending a Godel number.  For a good, non-technical description of
Godel number encoding of information see `The Gold at Starbow's End'
by Anderson.

The idea is simple: any amount of information can be encoded with a
very large number whose prime factors give you the message.  This
means that the message is EXTREMELY compact (in the above story the
ratio is roughly a savings of 5 orders of magnitude - better savings
are easily attainable).  However, on reception one has to compute the
prime factors: a non trivial task for a such extremely large numbers.

Bob's technique reduces to transmitting a Godel number by representing
it as a time lapse between two spikes.  The straight transmission of
the number is probably a better technique.  You have to transmit very
slightly more information, but you do not have to worry about
measurement errors when measuring the time lapse between signal peaks.
Also the time spent between the peaks could be used to re-transmit the
message a few times.  With error correcting code the noise loss should
be kept down to practically nil.

So any amount of information can be TRANSMITTED with what is
essentially zero power and in an extremely short time with low
bandwidth.  But the DECIPHERING of the message might take years...
The trade-off here is clear, and I do not think that there is
anyway around it, but who knows?

Jim

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 1037-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: Forward's info transmission scheme

Yes, this two-pulse method is an interesting way of sending
information with very low energies per bit, but it does have a
problem with data rates. The 10^12 number you get by timing the
interval between pulses only gives you 40 bits or so, and takes 20
minutes to get. Taking this idea to the limit, if you could measure
time in increments of 10^-23 seconds (about the time it takes light
to cross a proton) and were willing to wait until the heat death of
the universe (maybe 30 billion years on the outside) for a response,
you could send some 136 bits. The energy cost would be that of two
unmistakably non-noise pulses or sequences of pulses.  Background
noise can be made arbitrarily small by focussing your transmitted
energy into an arbitrarily narrow beam. The noise induced by the
receiver can be lessened by cooling it down to absolute zero, but
even there the atoms are still bopped around by quantum effects.
This zero-point energy probably puts the theoretical mininum on
the amount of energy that you need to send in the pulse. Anybody
out there know what it is?

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 1329-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: 'cheap' data transmission

About the 2-bit data transmission idea.  I haven't looked
carefully into the exact numbers, but;

In sending the 2 bits through anything except a 'perfect'
transmission medium will cause the bits to 'spread', thus ruining
the timing.  For any large bit capacity (10^13) a small bit of
spreading would destroy the least significant bits real fast!
Also, does the Heisenberg Uncertainty principal affect this?

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980  6:04:45 EDT
From: Dan Franklin <dan at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: story answer

That fine story about the aliens who tried to ruin the Earth's
economy by introducing duplicators (V2 #4) is "Business as Usual,
During Alterations" by Ralph Williams. It can be found in Prologue
to Analog, John W. Campbell, ed. (That's where I found it, anyway.)

------------------------------

DERWAY@MIT-AI 07/07/80 10:22:10 Re: A Cure for Cancer.

A CURE FOR CANCER by Michael Moorcock, also available in THE CORNELIUS
CHRONICLES, which includes THE FINAL PROGRAMME, THE ENGLISH ASSASSIN,
and THE CONDITION OF MUZAK, is very enjoyable, but even more bizarre.
I read all four a couple of months ago, and still don't know what to
make of them.  THE FINAL PROGRAMME, and A CURE FOR CANCER are the
best ones, with THE ENGLISH ASSASSIN getting stranger still, and THE
CONDITION OF MUZAK reaching heights of absurdity rarely seen by mere
mortals. It is modern fantasy, (with planes, cars, guns, etc.), and
all four involve the same characters, with Jerry Cornelius the hero,
his brother Frank one of the baddies, and their sister Catherine the
point of contention.  If you like Moorcock's other works, or any of
Stanislaw Lem's stuff, you'll probably enjoy it.  I can't say much
more without spoiling it. THE CONDITION OF MUZAK has the one redeeming
feature that it explains what it's all about.  If you haven't read any
Moorcock before, start with the ELRIC series, which is considered one
of the classics of the swords and sorcery tradition, along with the
CONAN stories by Howard.

				Don

------------------------------

Date: 07 Jul 1980 1754-PDT
From: JPM at SU-AI

I found "the Futurians", by Damon Knight, a highly interesting book.
In many respects I feel Pohl's `The Way the Future Was' was a better
book, but this might simply be because Pohl's work is essentially
auto-biographical, while Knight attempts to document the lives of
many people.

Both books deal with fandom, roughly during the Golden Age (although
both contain material from other time periods). Many of the fans
will actually become pros in times to come (as the authors themselves
did).  If you are interested in the history of the field from a human
viewpoint (as opposed to a literary viewpoint) then I cannot recommend
either book too highly. I believe both are out in paperback.

------------------------------

Date: 07 JUL 1980 1054-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: THE FUTURIANS

  came out something over two years ago, to very mixed reactions.
I enjoyed it; it was a good, personal history without the sort of
pompous idiocy that Moskowitz put into THE IMMORTAL STORM (the
title alone is ridiculous, given that it's about NY fandom in
the late 30's-early 40's).  A lot of people complained, with some
justification, that there was too much in it that could only be
classified as gossip (Frederik Pohl, who was at the Boston GLOBE
Book Festival the subsequent autumn ('78) to talk about SF and his
autobiography (THE WAY THE FUTURE WAS), obviously didn't like the
book but was careful to limit his public criticism). I thought it
was fascinating just to see the kind of seethe that happened when
that much raw (and I mean \raw/) creative talent was tossed together.
I suppose it's also some sort of measure of how slan-like fans
really are; the exclusion at the first Worldcon and the subsequent
infighting have appeared repeatedly, even to the point of supposedly
open-minded fans excluding an alleged pederast from the 1958 Worldcon
(San Francisco; the man was gay but the evidence of child molestation
can charitably be called slim).
  Those of you planning to go to Noreascon II can hear a panel of
former Futurians (I think Knight, Pohl, Lowndes, and Dick Wilson (?)
are confirmed) talking about whatever comes up, probably on Sunday
afternoon.

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/08/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  8 Jul 1980 0212-EDT
From: FISCHER at RUTGERS
Subject: TESB responses (again (recurse (recurse)))

     Some time after SW came out, David Gerrold, who wrote 'The
Trouble With Tribbles' for the original ST, discussed what was wrong
with SW in his editorial column in Starlog magazine. He claimed that
what was needed were scenes of Luke being shown the ways of the force
by Obi-wan. He visualized something like this: Luke and Obi-wan visit
secluded mountain shrine. Luke recieves some training and a few
lightning bolts later he becomes a full-fledged jedi. When the TESB
novel came out I was suprized at how accurate Gerrold's vision was.
He probably just second guessed a very logical need, but...

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 1329-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Luke and Dagobah

As per Dagobah, the planet might not be 'real'. The similarities
between Dagobah and Organia has already been poitnted out, and
several times Luke comments on how 'unreal', 'dreamlike' or
'familiar' Dagobah feels to him.  Yoda is powerful, but ....????

------------------------------

Date: 07 Jul 1980 2241-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <JMA at SU-AI>
Subject: TESB  

In response to DUFTY@MC, (about how in the nine billion names of
god does Luke know where to look for Yoda), he knew the name of the
system, and he DOES have a computer on board; presumably there is
some sort of catalog of systems.  It seems to me that they just name
the system after the habitable planet in it.  Of course, there may be
many different definitions of "habitable"...  But also his catalog of
systems would list the planets of each system and what type of life
they could support.

Judy.

------------------------------

DERWAY@MIT-AI 07/07/80 10:06:03
Re: TESB: Finding Dagobah, and cloned Storm Troopers.

It seems to me that Kenobi refered to the system, by the name of the
planet of interest, so Luke could look it up, and would know it was
the third (or whatever) planet in the system of M-27953.  Perhaps many
systems are known, (to humans), only by the planet(s) of interest to
humans??

I hope the Storm Troopers aren't cloned. If they are, they should be
cloned from some close to super-human warrior, and should be raised
from birth to be good soldiers, but they are CRUMMY!

				Don

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 JUL 1980 0619-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #9
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Wednesday, 9 June 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 9

 Today's Topics:  SF Books - Starbow & Mightiest Machine & Covenant,
                 Prisoner, Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission,
                                   SF Movies - TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 Jul 1980 1155-EDT
From: Moon at MIT-MC, CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS
Subject: The Gold at the Starbow's End

The Gold at the Starbow's End was written by Frederik Pohl,
not Poul Anderson.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 1430-EDT
From: CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS, DErway at MIT-AI
Subject: "The Mightiest Machine"

I was wrong in naming this book.  It appears that the title I was
looking for might actually be "The Machine Passes", Josh pointed
this out to me.  I will have to check up on it.
                                  -- Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at Rutgers>

CCIS.ZEVE mentioned a book by John Cambell called "The Mightiest
Machine". So far, so good, but the story has nothing to do with a
computer creating a utopia on earth. The mightiest machine refers
to stars, and the story revolves around a brilliant inventor who
comes up with a goody which sends some sort of beam out to the
nearest star, and "conducts" gross amounts of energy back to the
ship, or power station or whatever.  It isn't a great story, as
the entire plot revolves around this inventor coming up with a new
miracle every 15 pages or so, to beat the bad guys, figure out FTL
flight, and inter-universal travel, etc. etc. etc. I don't know
what the title of the story he described is. Oh well...
                                        --  Don <DErway at MIT-AI>

------------------------------

Date:  8 Jul 1980 (Tuesday) 1105-PST
From: SHL at MIT-MC, Dave Smith (DWS @ LLL-MFE)
Subject: Convenant Books

I heard that there are 3 new Covenant books (another trilogy) and that
Donaldson is trying for a trilogy of trilogies.
                                           --  $tephen <SHL at MIT-MC>

There will be a reception in honour of Stephan Donaldson's new book
"The Wounded Land" (with S.D. present, no less) at Books, Inc.  420
Town & Country Road, San Jose, CA (Just north of 280), on Wednesday,
July 16, from 8:00 pm to ?                    -- Dave <DWS at LLL-MFE>

------------------------------

KED@MIT-MC 07/08/80 11:01:40

     Does anyone know where the show "The Prisoner" was filmed?  If I
remember correctly it was a hotel in Wales.  I am going to Europe in
December and have to visit the place!

     Next, Heisenberg's "Uncertainty Principle" does says something
about the information transfer problem. For those with a little
expertise in physics, the equation is "delta"E*"delta"t~h/(2*(pi)).
That is for optimum conditions of course. For those who don't know
physics, the equation says that to send information faster you have
to use more energy. Be seeing you.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 2110-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: Time/Energy uncertainty

There is an analogue to the uncertainty principle involving time,
with the other quantity being energy.  Basically, it states that the
uncertainty in the measurement of the energy of something is inversely
proportional to the amount of time spent measuring it.  Consider the
problem of measuring the energy of a photon.  This is proportional to
its frequency.  The frequency can be measured by counting the number
of cycles that occur in a given length of time.  The longer the period
of time, the more accurate the count, if 1 cycle is measured in 1ms,
the frequency could be estimated to be 1kHz, but if the counting time
is extended to 1sec, and 995 cycles are measured, then the frequency
must be close to 995Hz, etc.  Atomic nuclei are bound together by
particles (analogous to photons, but transmitting the "strong" force)
which are created and destroyed in such a short time that the energy
fluctuation cannot be detected.  This is also the loophole by which a
black hole can radiate energy - a "virtual" positron-electron pair is
created in the vicinity of the black hole. Normally they would rejoin
quickly enough that the uncertainty principle covers the energy
necessary for their creation.  However, near a black hole, it is
possible that one particle is "sucked in" and the other is not - thus
the black hole appears to radiate a particle, and the energy for the
electron creation does indeed come from the mass of the black hole,
that being the nearest source.  (Good references are Stephen Hawking's
article in Scientific American a couple of years ago, and a book
edited by Larry Niven, titled Black Holes, containing stories and
fact articles about black holes.)

-S

------------------------------

MOON@MIT-MC 07/08/80 18:35:16
Re: JPM at SU-AI's disinformation about Godel numbers

Actually, Godel numbering is a technique for mapping a sequence of
arbitrary sized integers into a single integer, so that arguments
based on ordering and counting can be used to reason about such
sequences.  If one was mapping a sequence of bounded integers,
e.g. a,b,c,... all less than say 128, one could use the encoding
a+128*(b+128*(c+ ... )). The Godel encoding allows arbitrary sized
integers to be encoded, at the expense of requiring a much larger
number as the encoding. In the above example, the encoding would
be (2^a)*(3^b)*(5^c)*....

It is easy to see that a Godel encoding is not orders of magnitude
more compact than a stream of bits, but is in fact orders of
magnitude less compact. If we have n numbers to transmit, each 0 or 1,
the binary encoding is a number less than 2^n. The Godel encoding of
the same n numbers is a product of some subset of the first n primes.
This will be larger than 2^n most of the time if the 0's and 1's are
randomly distributed, since almost all primes are greater than 4.  If
you put more than one bit in each exponent, the Godel encoding is an
even larger number since the size of the exponents increases much
faster than the size of the primes multiplied together decreases.

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/09/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LPH@MIT-MC 07/08/80 07:40:04 Re: dagobah

Does my memory fail me, or do I remember correctly that Luke tells
R2D2 that he knows that Dagobah is not on the stellar maps?  Then
they wind up at Dagobah, and I conclude that this is a manifestation
of the Force. Or do I have it all wrong?

------------------------------

Date:  4 Jul 1980 12:010:08 EDT
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: star wars heresies

First, to jolt you all in the proper frame of mind:

Star Wars is really about the US involvement in S.E. Asia, with the
U.S. in the starring role as the *Galactic Empire*. (huh?)

Well, its like this, you see -- here we have this mighty technological
war machine unable to cope with this ill-equipped band of rebels. And
the Empire keeps losing because the empire keeps waging a limited war
(why not just bomb Hoth till it glowed?  Sure, the rebels had energy
shields -- so trap them inside their energy shield by stationing one
cruiser in Hoth-synch orbit, dropping one H-Bomb every 30 minutes or
so (at that rate it would take over two years to exhaust just the
American stockpiles (I think, a long time, anyway) of nukes, so I'm
sure the Empire can handle it))).

Though its a shift in the metaphor, I think there are also LOTS of
parallels between the destruction of Alderaan, a quiet, non-military,
relatively defenseless planet, and Hiroshima, a quiet, non-military,
relatively defenseless city, as the first excercise of new
technological weapons.

Anyway, my point in all this is: we really know nothing about this
rebellion.  Are we SURE we want these clowns to win?  After all,
Princess Leia doesn't seem to have dropped her title yet. Sure, Ben
Kenobi is a lovable old man, I'm sure Ho CHih Minh was, too.  Sure
Darth Vader is a baddy, I'm sure everyone huddling in bomb-shelters
in Hanoi thought the same of Walt Rostow (and later Henry Kissinger)
(I've seen film clips that make Walt Rostow come off like a fatherly
(hee hee) Darth Vader...)  Maybe after the victory celebration the
purges will start, with interstellar boat people.

Now, what can YOU say about chocolate covered manhole covers?

****

     Star Wars glorifies War dept:

Obviously. All one needs do is look at the derisive replies
David@UTEXAS got when he first suggested such heresy to see how
thoroughly we accept the violence and killing portrayed in Star
Wars.  Don't forget, in some corner of the Death Star when Luke
blew it up there was an eighteen year-old draftee writing home
to his girlfriend, a drill-sergeant worrying about how he's gonna
cover his kid's orthodontist bill on this measly military pay, and
probably hundreds of political prisoners (they have more than one
prison, evidently, if the line "transfer from cell block 1138"
sounded plausible enough that the officer had to confirm it).

Sure, sure.  "They had no choice."  (after all, there were whole
CIVILIZATIONS on that jungle planet (or at least ruins of them)). The
point is that Lucas has contrived a situation in which there was no
choice.  I don't want to press this issue too hard, however, 'cause
I'm not prepared to go out and make a dramatically pacifist science
fiction film, just yet (mmm, The Dispossessed, maybe, or possibly The
Forever War...).

But after all, science fiction is a genre of *new possibilities*, and
<bang-bang><pow pow> is the oldest possibility there is...

****

     No aliens in Star Wars, or Why do the space-ships rumble? dept:

Its taken me three years (of not really thinking too hard on the
subject) but I have finally contrived an explanation for the lack of
aliens in Star Wars (or actually, the presence of so few). (I mean an
explanation that works in the context of suspended disbelief, not the
mundane one that it was just too expensive to have lots of non-humans
flailing their tentacles in the background, and technically infeasible
to put convincing and alien aliens in the foreground).

Think of Wisconsin in 1760. Lots of indians. Not very many Frenchmen,
fewer Englishmen, and rumors of Spaniards somewhere down south.  So
the aliens you see are the people who live on the edge (ignoring the
missionaries).  They are types you would expect to find as bounty
hunters, or haunting a bar, or hanging around as co-pilot to an
indebted smuggler who won his spaceship in a card-game.

So this isn't REALLY a Galactic Empire, it just has a pretentious
name, as Empires are wont to do (or at least emperors are wont to do).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 JUL 1980 0439-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #10
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 10 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 10

Today's Topics: SF Books - Black Holes & Pilgrim & Covenant, Prisoner,
                   Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1980 15:03 PDT
From: AQE at MIT-MC, Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: The editor of the collection "Black Holes" [ SFL V2 #9 ]

The editor of the collection Black Holes is Jerry Pournelle, not
Larry Niven as mentioned by Thomas at UTAH-20.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1980 10:50 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Here's the story and title, where's the story?

I hardly ever read SF magazines, just paperbacks or hardbacks.  But I
picked up the August issue of Analog a few days ago and read a story
called "The Cloak and the Staff" by Gordon Dickson.  I would swear I
read this story multi-years ago.  Yet I could find no indication in
the magazine that it was a reprint......  Is my mind flaking out, or
is it now customary to use reprints in magazines, or is there a clone
of this story somewhere?  (The story is about a time when earth is
dominated by aliens; the main character goes around marking a symbol
of rebellion at places where the aliens have executed earth people,
etc.).

Karen

[ From the IN TIMES TO COME column of ANALOG (July 1980):

    Six years ago next month, Gordon Dickson introduced the "Pilgrim"
    series, about an Earth and humanity enslaved by the Aalaag -- a
    sinister race of aliens who viewed humans as "cattle" and wielded
    such power that resistance was unthinkable.  But, humans being
    human, it could hardly remain unthinkable for long.  "Enter a
    Pilgrim" was a short story, hinting at a background so big and
    potential-laden that it whetted the appetite for more.  Finally
    more has arrived.  Next month we lead off with Dickson's "The
    Cloak and the Staff", a new Pilgrim story wherein the seeds of
    the rebellion planted six years ago begin to grow.

  Note that the events of "Enter a Pilgrim" play a pivotal role in
  "The Cloak and the Staff" and therefore are described within the
  framework of the new story. However, they are distinct stories.
                                                            --  RDD  ]


------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 07/09/80 09:50:39 Re: Donaldson

Donaldson certainly gets around.  He was supposedly going to be at the
sceince fantasy bookstore in Harvard Square on July 7.  (I didn't go
by) Do you get the feeling that the publishers are pushing something??

	Dan

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1980 0916-PDT
From: Stevan Milunovic <Milunovic at SRI-KL>, LEE.MOORE at CMU-10A
Subject: KED at MIT-MC's query on the Prisoner [ SFL V2 #9 ]

In response to KED@MIT's query regarding the location of the village
in the Prisoner series: the place is called Portmeirion and is in
Wales, according to the McGoohan interview in the series guide called
'The Prisoner Puzzle'.                 --  Steve <Milunovic at SRI-KL>

The last time I was in England, I was told that the Village was really
a resort in or near Portmeirion, Wales. This place is in the Northern
half of Wales and is south of Mt. Snowdon.  Naturally, it is on the
coast.                                  --  Lee <LEE.MOORE at CMU-10A>

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1980 23:35-EDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <AQE at MIT-MC>
Subject: Elaboration on MOON's explanation of Godel numbers

It is true that Godel numbering by itself is not an information
compression technique.  Its purpose is merely to represent a message
as a number so that the message can be operated on with arithmetic
and number theory.  Godel's original use of this device was to enable
statements in number theory to talk about statements in number theory,
possibly even about themselves, unambiguously.

In Pohl's "The Gold at the Starbow's End", some very smart people want
to send a very long message with a very small ammount of energy.  They
Godelized the message, and then converted it to a compact expression
(perhaps by magic - these are VERY smart people) which evaluates to
the original number:

                 354     852    2008   47   9606   88
             1973   + 331   + 17    + 5  + 3    + 2  - 78

The recipients, although they are unable to compute the number and
decrypt the message, are able to estimate the size of the message as
"equal to the contents of a standard unabridged dictionary."
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 09 JUL 1980 1635-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Godel numbers

  I have no direct mathematical background with which to counter
MOON@MIT-MC's description of Godel numbers.  However, from the
way Pohl described them in "The Gold at the Starbow's End" they
do indeed present a way of substantially reducing the information
encoded by accumulating powers, i.e. 2^X1 * 3^X2 * 5^X3 * . . .
(0 < X < 27, if you settle for a simple alphabetical coding) 
which is equal to nnnnn^nnnnn^nn + nnn^nn (plus maybe some more
terms); the point is that once you have this humongous number
the encoding reduces it to a manageable bulk.
  Of course, calculating for either encoding or decoding would
take ridiculous amounts of time and precision, but for the class
of geniuses Pohl portrays that's supposed to be trivial . . . .
  (And there's a distinct suggestion of the reason the geniuses
use Godel numbers in the end of DRAGON'S EGG, although in the
latter case the end is apparently kindness rather than malice.)

------------------------------

Date: 09 Jul 1980 0750-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: JPM at SU-AI's disinformation about Godel numbers

Of course, Godel numbers are not the most efficient representation
of information when limitations are placed upon the character of
the message.  But such alternate techniques are refinements, not
basic alterations of the Godel encoding technique.

   'It is easy to see that a Godel encoding is not orders of
    magnitude more compact than a stream of bits, but is in
    fact orders of magnitude less compact.'
                                   --  Dave <MOON at MIT-MC>

Simply wrong.  You can always take a message, Godel encoded into some
sequence of integers, and `pad' the message with additional characters
of information (say spaces) which the decoder will ignore.  This
padding can always make the long string of digits collaspe into the
sum of various powers of some basis.  Thus we have 321^679 as a number
which may actually encode a message that, transmitted without filler,
would indeed be longer that the original message.

Naturally, this compactness comes at an increased cost of encoding the
message.  I NEVER said that such encoding (and decoding) was simple
(or even practical), only that a trade off between transmission costs
and encoding-decoding costs could be arranged.

Jim

------------------------------

Date:  9 JUL 1980 1942-EDT
From: MOON at MIT-MC (David A. Moon)
Subject: more on Godel codes

What you are saying is the equivalent of the joke about the prisoners
and the numbered jokes.  A bunch of life-sentenced prisoners have been
in prison together for years.  A new one shows up, and in the dining
hall is astounded at the dinner conversation.  One lifer says, 37, and
everyone laughs.  Another prisoner says 151 and they all roll on the
floor.  The person next to him explains that these are page numbers in
a joke book in the prison library; they all know all the jokes by
heart, so there's no need to tell them, they just call out the
numbers.

The key to what you have been saying is the "loss of flexibility" of
the code.  Indeed if you have only a small number of messages to send
you can assign names to them and just send the names rather than the
full text.  This does not help if you have to send an arbitrary
message.  There is no particular advantage to using Godel numbers
rather than ordinary integers or names of cities in South Dakota or
5-letter nonsense words as your code words.

I don't believe your assertion that by inserting filler an arbitrary
sequence of integers can be turned into one whose Godel encoding
collapses into something small.  But I would love to see a reference.

I don't have a copy of The Gold at the Starbow's End on my shelf, but
as I recall for the sake of the story Pohl made the tacit assumption
that all numbers of arbitrary size had names among the characters
on the ship (as English has names for the first 20 numbers), and
therefore any number could be communicated in almost no time by
mentioning its name. Then with their lightning brains the listeners
could factor the number and extract the Godelized message. Of course
this is ridiculous if you fail to suspend disbelief, and think about
it.  Heinlein did it much better in "Gulf", where there is a secret
language in which the number of pronounceable syllables is larger
than in English, so that Speedtalk uses a word to convey a message
that takes a sentence in English.

I can't resist saying a little more about the prisoners.  After
listening to several days of numbered joke-telling, the new chum
decides to try his hand.  54 he calls out, and no one laughs. 88
he says, and there is stony silence.  Says another prisoner, "Ah,
some guys just don't know how to tell a joke". Later the prisoners
are telling jokes, when an old guy says 354, and no one laughs but
the newest inmate.  "I never heard that one before," he explains.
This joke can of course be elaborated indefinitely.  Interested
people could send mail to Greenberg @ MIT-Multics.

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/10/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  9 Jul 1980 0958-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: SW heresies

Yea, you know I thought that jungle planet looked a lot like Cambodia,
complete with Angkor Wat.....

It wouldn't do any good to bomb Hoth until it glowed, 'cause the
transports could still slip out from under the energy field and
flit away into hyperspace.  Besides, your Army guys like General
Veers would get restless unless they got to try out their toys.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Jul 1980 at 2352-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ VERIFYING TESB DIALOGUE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If Doug Philips at CMU-10A will give us a bit more identification
about what scene he thought he heard C-3PO mention the word "puppet"
or "Muppet", we'll try to clear it up.  We suspect the setting may
have been the cage-cell on Cloud City rather than in the cockpit of
the Falcon.

As for what Luke said about finding Dagobah, the FILM had only--

   LUKE:  There's nothing wrong, R2; just setting a new course.
   R2D2:  {bleepity}
   LUKE:  We're not going to re-group with the others.
   R2D2:  {bleepity}
   LUKE:  We're going to the Dagobah system.
   R2D2:  {bleepity}
   LUKE:  Yes, R2?
   R2D2:  {bleepity}
   LUKE:  That's all right.  I'd like to keep it on manual control
          for a while.
   R2D2:  {bleepity}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 JUL 1980 0511-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #11
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 11 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 11

   Today's Topics:     SF Books - Changling & Dune, Prisoner,
                               Physics Imaginary - MT,
                   Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 1430-EDT
From: CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS

For any who are interested Zelazny's new book "The Changling" is a
nice light read.

------------------------------

Date:  9 July 1980 09:58 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Ancestors of Dune

While reading W.H.D. Rouse's prose translation of Homer's Odyssey
(early SF, maybe) I discovered that the last name of Agamemnon was
Atreides. (two dots over the i, a carat over the last e).  Any
relation to the Duke Leto, Paul, and the Dune-royalty?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1980 10:41 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Prisoner query

The complete address of the "Village" is:

     Hotel Portmeirion
     Penrhyndeudraeth, North Wales

Karen

------------------------------

Date:  10 July 1980 18:32 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Watts per bit

I recall an article in Scientific American several years ago on
exactly this topic. It analyzed various then current computer
storage systems and compared them to the theoretical minimum.

The article also contained an interesting refutation of Maxwell's
Demon.  It seems that in order to identify the fast and the slow
molecules, the Demon must extract information, and the energy
value of this information is exactly that wich might be gained
by redirecting them.  Or, put differently, in order to tell the
fast from the slow, the Demon must shine a light on them, and the
energy consumed by the light matches the energy extracted. Either
way, you can't win.

------------------------------

Date:  10 July 1980 14:32 edt
From:  Sibert at MIT-Multics (W. Olin Sibert)
Subject:  Godel at the starbow's end

A moments brief exercise with logarithms reveals that the "Godelized"
number in the story is not nearly as unfathomable as the author would
have us believe; it only has 4584 digits, and could be calculated and
factored quite easily with even a small computer (since we already
KNOW what the factors are, just not how many there are of each).

As for its information content: if we assume (naively) that the 26
letters are evenly distributed between 1 and 26, so their mean value
is 13, this mammoth number suffices to encode 75 characters (using
primes from 2 to 379).  More realistically, if we assume that they
rearranged the alphabet so that the most frequent letters have the
smallest value, and we assume a mean value of 3 for each letter
(this is a completely random assumption, though I rather doubt it
could be made any smaller than 3, it might be somewhat larger),
the Godel number will encode 248 characters (using primes from 2
to 1571). An unabridged encyclopedia, indeed.

Moon is surely right that this is less compact than a stream of bits,
by many, many orders of magnitude. Perhaps someone would care to prove
that the density of "nameable" numbers approaches zero faster than one
can add "filler" ?

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1980 01:19-EDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <AQE at MIT-MC>
Subject: More on the big number in "The Gold at the Starbow's End"

On second glance, that number is far too small.  A five-minute
back-of-envelope estimation says the number is about 15000 bits
long. A minute with a scientific calculator pins it down to 15226
bits. Another minute on MACSYMA confirms that by actually computing
the number, writing it out in binary, and counting the bits.

Now, when Pohl wrote the story, neither MACSYMA nor scientific
calculators were available, but backs of envelopes were plentiful.
Why did he make this mistake, considering that he almost always gets
easy details like this right?  Is it possible that the message is in
fact NOT from the space travellers to earth, but is actually from Pohl
to his readers?  Unlikely, because even though it is far too small to
contain "a standard unabridged dictionary", it is far too large for
Pohl to have computed it when he wrote the story.  Even so, I tried
decrypting it Project Ozma-style by re-arranging it into a 46 X 331
binary matrix, and even adding 3 leading zeros and putting it into a
97 X 157 matrix, but no magic pictures showed up.  If anyone else
wants to try and decrypt it, you can find it in MC:USERS0;AQE POLNUM,
but don't get your hopes up.

It is interesting to speculate, though: 15000 bits could hold about
500 words of english text; what would have been a good message to put
in there, if the computational power had been available?  I think what
I would have done is made the number a little bigger and put the story
itself into the number.  Of course the story contains the number in
magically-compressed expression form.  Taking this to the limit, what
would you say about an expression which when computed into a number
and then unpacked into text via some de-Godelization scheme, yields
itself?  I think a number that does this could actually be derived
today.  Any takers?  If so, please use one of the familiar
Godelization schemes, e.g. Godel's original P1^C1 * P2^C2 * P3^C3...
where Pn are the primes and Cn are some ASCII-like coding of the
characters of the message; e.g. the more compact B1*2^0 + B2*2^1 +
B3*2^2... where Bn are the bits of the message (write out the ASCII
codes of the message in binary, concatenate all the 8-bit groups, and
that whole string considered as a binary number is the Godel number).
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1980 1303-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: more on "Gold..."

   One can work out fairly easily how big the Godelized number quoted
in "The Gold At the Starbow's End" actually is. The largest term in
the sum is 3^9606, which is equal to about 2x10^4583. Since this is
only 4584 digits long it would not be enough to encode the story much
less an unabridged dictionary.
  A much more interesting question is that posed by the story's
theme. As I remember, the idea was that if you put a group of geniuses
(genii?) in isolation with no mundane matters to worry about and no
dullards to slow them down, they would bootstrap themselves into a
higher intellectual plane. In a matter of years they proved Fermat's
last theorem, obtained continuous fusion, achieved telepathy and did
a host of other things that I can't recall.  Now, the reason this is
interesting is because this is the principle that MIT and Caltech,
and to a lesser extent most universities, are based on.  Restrict
admittance to an elite and make sure that, at least for their freshman
year, they live in the company of their fellow elitesees. The ivory
tower isn't quite as remote as a ship en route to Alpha Centauri, but
the concept is the same.  My own belief is that this doesn't really
work except for the narrowest technical matters. Most good engineering
and much good science is done by being in intimate contact with the
outside world, even with that natural enemy of research, the miltary.
Comments?

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/11/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 06 JUL 1980 1741-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Concerning HJJH's remark [SFL V2 #5]:

I wasn't convinced, looking at the two-legged walker, that it was
intended to be the cut-off half of a four-legged walker.  It was
distinctly smaller, and moved much faster --- and I don't see how
the 4-legs could balance with that long snout if they were cut off
just behind the front legs.  2-legs looked like a completely
different type.

------------------------------

Date:  8 Jul 1980 0212-EDT
From: FISCHER at RUTGERS
Subject: TESB responses (again (recurse (recurse)))

     Several people have mentioned the two legged walker(s) that
stomp by in TESB. My fanatic former roomate SF freak tells me that
in the new Joe Johnston portfolio for TESB (J.J. did many of the
design sketches for SW, TESB and other films(?) Anybody out there
know what else he's done?) these were described as two man transport
vehicles.  So much for the 'chicken without a head' theory. Now if
only they'd shown some troopers climbing out of one...

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1980 10:18 PDT
From: LStewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Storm Troopers [ Re DUFTY at MC's message in SFL V2 #7. ]

The storm troopers are deficient clones, that's why they:

  1: Die when hit anywhere.
  2: Always have to wear armor.
  3: Can't seem to aim.

------------------------------

Date: 10 July 1980 13:34-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>

In response to Doug Philips at CMU-10A.  I believe the line C-3P0
used was "What do you expect from an overgrown Mop-head?"

--Dennis

------------------------------

Date:  6 Jul 1980 at 2127-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "I LOVE YOU" ... "I KNOW" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

According to Harrison Ford in STARLOG, the line was to have been "I
love you, too" instead of the "I'll be back" one in the book, and the
idea to make it just "I know" was his, and that was the only version
of the line that was actually shot.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE SHOOTING SCRIPT ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

To someone familiar with scripts for stage plays, the differences
exhibited by a shooting script are fascinating.  There are often,
for instance, descriptions which seemingly casually take for granted
as accomplishable some kind of effect something in a scene should
produce--

   "A dark, ominously finned back breaks the surface. The thing
    swims up behind the little droid and dives, creating a loud
    clunk. Artoo's periscope disappears as he lets out a pathetic
    electronic scream.  The black surface is as still as death
    itself."

This kind of detailed description that reads like narrative rather
than drama sometimes seems to run away with itself, as in The Big
Romantic Scene--

   "With an irresistable combination of physical strength and
    emotional power, the space pirate begins to draw Leia toward
    him...very slowly. He kisses her with slow, hot lips. He takes
    his time, as though he had forever, bending her body backward.
    She has never been kissed like this before, and it almost makes
    her faint.  When he stops, she regains her breath and tries to
    work up some indignation, but finds it hard to talk.  His mouth
    stops her.  A swimming giddiness spins her around until, before
    she knows it, she is kissing him back.  Finally, Han breaks the
    kiss and looks at her.  They stand there for a moment looking
    at each other.  Leia is totally, frantically confused by her
    feelings."

Whew!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 JUL 1980 0359-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #12
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 12 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 12

Today's Topics: SF TV - Lathe, SF Books - Face of the Deep & Starbow,
                     Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission,
                             Physics Tomorrow - MT, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1980 07:30 PDT
From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: lathe of heaven

The PBS movie version of Ursula LeGuin's Lathe of Heaven will be on
Channel 9 (SF Bay Area) on Mon. Jul 21 9pm, also Sun. Jul 27 2:30pm.

Steve

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 07/11/80 16:17:29 Re: Godel randmoness

I offer this quote without comment:

"Attached to the note were a series of hard-copy documents about the
record box the Citadel had left.  The metallic plates were covered
with a numerical code, according to the first report, that could
condense thousands of pages of data into a single symbol. It was an
old twentieth- or twenty-first-century technique called Godelizing
numbers; Rafe had only heard of it, and didn't know much more about
it.  Just breaking the code had taken two weeks."

	--from "The Face of the Deep", by Jim Young (1979)

The novel itself is okay but undistinguished.  Picked it out of a
library stack the other day.

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 07/11/80 07:06:04 Re: Gold at the Starbow's End

Actually, the idea behind this story also depended on the assumption
that if you give a person fewer resources to work with, he will
achieve a better solution.  Pohl cites one experiment, in which
children are told to get across a room using only two planks of
wood and some string, without touching any parts of themselves
to the floor.  The children loop the strings around the boards,
forming two "skis", and walk across.  Then a second group of
children are given the same task, but with only ONE board, and
they solve the problem by forming one ski and sort of scooting
across, faster than the first set of kids had. See, the first
set of kids could have found this superior solution, but didn't
because they had MORE resources.  So by sticking these guys on a
spaceship, they become super-good at doing everything.

Generalizing this example to all of science and technology would
revolutionize government funding of research! The idea seems utterly
ridiculous, as do a bunch of other assumptions in the story.  But I
liked it anyway.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1980 08:46 PDT
From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Maxwell's Demons and the Win/Loss Ratio V2 #11

Schauble's comments about not be able to win when attempting to
separate slow and fast particles reminded me of the layman's version
of the three laws of thermodynamics, as I heard them many years ago:

   1. You can't win.
   2. You can't even break even.
   3. But it's the only game in town, and you gotta play.

Cheryl

------------------------------

WGK@MIT-AI 07/11/80 08:10:31 Re: Godel numbers and Info Encoding

The information in 15226 bits (# per Jef) could be significant.
It doesn't have to translate into a random list of characters. It
would be a waste of channel capacity to have a system which can
carry any random list of characters.  The information a channel
can carry is dependent on the amount of 'mutual information'
which exists.  An example could be that it carries answers to
a long list of questions (15226 guess...)  If you encode words
directly, ...now I can't find it... Oh well, for characters
limited to English language constraints, Shannon estimated that
it requires between 0.6 and 1.3 bits per CHARACTER.  Even if I
can't find the ref, for English words, it takes around 4-5 bits
per word. That works to 3,075 to 3,806 words. Larger, but still
not a dictionary.  Did the senders use a verbose language like
English? 

(ref: Information Theory and Coding, by Abramson McGraw-Hill, 1963)

          //Bill

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 10 July 1980  21:44-EDT
From: SWERNOFSKY at BBN-TENEXD
Subject: compact messages from Godel encodings

SF people,

    It's quite amazing what the invokation of a Great Name can
get people to believe!  It should be clear that the message
compaction which occured in Pohl's "The Gold at the Starbow's
End" is a result of re-expressing the Godel encoding of the
original message into an alternate form. The alternate form
happens to use sums of (number)^(large power) as a way of
expressing the large numbers which result from using Godel's
original method of encodement.

    I don't know any way to do this re-encodement (perhaps the
characters in the story read it with the I Ching), but I do know
that decoding the message should be very easy! After all, just
divide (a^b + c^d + ...) by each prime repeatedly to extract
successive characters of the message.  This can be done easily
by determining (m mod p^i), where m is the message, looping over
prime p and integer i.

    The sample message is divisable by: 2^0, 3^1, 5^0, 7^0, 11^0 ...
After I've built my controlled fusion device, I'm planning a short
vacation on some neat planets around Tau Ceti.  See you there!

					-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1980 12:41 pm PDT (Monday)
From: Kusnick at PARC-MAXC
Subject: MT thoughts

Here's my two cents' worth on matter transmission:

First of all, I am skeptical of any MT system that works by
scanning/rebuilding.  Leaving aside the duplicator aspects of such a
system (see Damon Knight's "A For Anything" for an excellent treatment
of this theme), I don't believe such a system can be made to transmit
a living human.  Carl Sagan has estimated (in "Dragons of Eden") that
the human genome contains some 10^10 bits of information, the human
brain about 10^13.  This puts a lower limit of 10^23 "pertinent" bits
you must transmit -- less than KED's 10^30 but still quite large. Note
that to achieve this compression you must first have BOTH ultra-fast
cloning AND mechanical telepathy.  More to the point, I don't believe
there can be a scanning system fast enough to record 10^13 bits of
brain info within a reasonable interval.  By "reasonable" I mean
short enough to be imperceptible to the brain being scanned. Let's be
generous and call it a millisecond (though even this might be too long
to avoid scrambling a train of thought).  That means a scanning rate
of 10^16 bits/second, i.e. ten million gigabits.  The wavelength of
such a pulse train is around 10^-8 meters, or 100 Angstroms.  You'd
need an X-ray modulator to transmit it.  Like I said, I don't believe
it.

As for "space-warp" systems, I see two kinds: those based on a new
kind of fundamental force, and those that work by tunnelling.  New
forces, needless to say, will tend to shake up current physical
theory a bit -- especially if they can be propagated faster than
light (while we're shaking things up we might as well go the whole
route). I would hesitate to predict what kind of side effects such
a shakeup would have.

I'm not a physicist, but it seems to me that large scale tunneling
involves some violations of probability by arranging for ALL the
subatomic particles in an object to tunnel simultaneously to a
distant point.  Of course, a device that affects probabilities
offers some interesting variations of its own. You could use it to
disrupt the timing of atomic clocks, randomize bits in a computer
memory, make all the air rush to one end of an occupied room, cause
an H-bomb to fizzle or blow Diablo Canyon sky-high...

CONCLUSION: No matter what kind of technology you use to build your
MT system, you end up with something else as well: a duplicator, or
a probability distorter, or a whole new concept of physics. In each
case the technical/social impact of the something else by far
outweighs the reduction in transportation costs gained by the MT
application. As with many new technologies, fulfilling the stated
goal turns out to be the LEAST important result.

			-- Greg

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/12/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!


The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 06 JUL 1980 1741-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: nits, gnats, and other beasties in TESB . . . .

  CCA-TENEX having elected to declare its own independence (by
crashing vigorously early July 3 and staying down some 72 hours)
I have several items to bring up, especially since I saw TESB for
the second time last night.

  Some interesting points I noticed (some of them from my perspective
as a stage , director, tech and designer):

  Kershner (or his photographer, or his film) seems to get off on
darkness, even when it's not particularly expected (as in interiors),
and especially on darkness broken by one or two sources of \orange/
light.  Am not sure whether this signifies much to him, but it gets
tiresome the 4th or 5th time it happens (it may be because any other
strongly-colored light would look terrible on people's faces, even
with good makeup).
  There is one appallingly cheap-looking shot (probably of a glass
painting, possibly a set-piece they didn't have time to finish) when
Luke steps out to see the backs of the crew walking off with Han's
frozen body.  It looks like a flat that somebody painted the primary
design on and forgot to add the edge coloring that gives it the
appearance of having three dimensions.
  I counted at least 3 separate female radar techs in a continuous
shot (i.e., a pan following someone around the room) and saw a fourth
who by the position and timing of the shot should have been another
person but looked like one of the previous three.
  The cheer that went up when it was announced that the first
transport was away was stagey -- everybody lifts his right fist
in unison and gives a half-hearted but coordinated yell.
  I had a little trouble believing the ordinary aluminum ladder that
Luke used to climb into his X-wing when he was leaving Dagobah -- it
was right out of the corner hardware store. I thought I remembered
seeing something more like what is now used (smaller treads and
supports, so it would be lighter and less bulky) just before the
final battle in SW4.
  I got a fair look at the whatever-it-was that fell past Luke when
he was hanging from the bottom of the cloud city. It did not seem to
be either his lightsaber or his hand.  I would describe it as square,
about six inches on a side from where we see it, and metallic blue
in color.  I'm unconvinced that Lukas or Kershner intended it to be
anything but a stomach-dropping warning of how far he'd fall if he
let go.
  A general remark: on the second go-round, I was much less impressed
with some of the matte work than I was at first--although I understand
that they had to invent a new process to make the atmosphere flyers
appear against a white background.  There were some cases where the
perspective seemed funny; I would call it more a matter of uncertainty
as to the match between what we can see of something and its apparent
distance.  The cloud match someone mentions is arguable; as an
instrument pilot I know that clouds come in all sizes.
  I also note that Kershner et al use some very effective indirection
(possibly from K's experience with other movies where certain things
simply couldn't be shown); the best example is the look on the new
admiral's face as he's watching Vader get "dressed", then the cut so
we see just the tail end of the process (that mass of [scar tissue] on
the back of his head).  I don't want to get into a detailed comparison
of directorial skills, but it's obvious that some of the critics have
underestimated Kershner's ability.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 JUL 1980 0551-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #13
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 13 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 13

 Special Issue on Bibliography Query Responses (w/ WORLDcon Reminder)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 JUL 1980 1620-EDT
From: DEE at CCA (Don Eastlake)
Subject: Noreascon II

SF-LOVERS are reminded that a July 15th postmark is the deadline for
joining the 1980 WorldCon by mail at the low $30 rate.  It will be
held August 29 through September 1 at the Sheraton-Boston hotel and
Hynes Auditorium and will cost $45 (for all four days) at the door.
     Noreascon II is the 38th annual World Science Fiction Convention
and there really isn't space here to begin to describe all the things
that will be going on there.

------------------------------

chuck von rospach (chuqui@mit-mc) 07/05/80 15:06:20
Re: humourous SF?

In an attempt to start up a new subject of conversation and pick the
brains of the people and others out there, I would like to ask you all
to run through your collections for me.  I am looking for SF novels,
stories, and other material which was written with a comedic point of
view. Things such as Laumers 'Retief', Harrison's 'Bill, the Galactic
Hero', Bova's 'The Starcrossed', and the Callahan's bar series by
Robinson come immediately to mind. I am not looking for material which
is humourous as an aside as much as written for the humour, and I am
also not looking for material that is humourous because of its writing
(Bester's 'Computer Connection', while a VERY funny book to read, is
not a humourous book, it is just so poorly written that you snicker
the whole way through)

chuck

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1980 10:51 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC, HJJH at UTEXAS
Subject: cats and more cats

HJJH and I are cat freaks and would like to get together a list of
science fiction/fantasy books that have cats (read: EVERYthing from
felis domesticus to mutated cats/cat-like beings to "intelligent"
cat-like aliens....) as prominent characters (not necessarily main
characters, but more than just walk-ons).  Our motives are mixed:
HJJH is working on an article on cats in SF for submission to a cat
magazine, while I just want to pig out on cat books.  So, we would
appreciate your letting us know the titles (and authors if you know
them) of any books that fall in this category. To avoid swamping the
Digest with messages, please send your messages instead to BOTH of
us, and we will send the resultant list along to the Digest after
we eliminate duplicates, etc.  Many thanks.
 
Karen

 ^^^^^^^^^

N.B: Just BOOKS, not short stories.  And, we've already gathered the
     relevant ones by SF's prime "Cat Lady", Andre Norton.  -- HJJH

 ^^^^^^^^^

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Responses on Imaginary Books / Gene Eng Applications / MT

Imaginary Books:
----------------

  Encyclopedia Galactica in "The Foundation Trilogy".
                                     -- Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>

  We forgot a set near & dear to our hearts -> the 4 from Dragon's
  Egg (Sawlinski et al., S-Y Wang, P. C. Niven  and Del Rey's Science
  Encyclopedia, 2064 Edition).   --  David Rossien <ROSSID at WHARTON>


Genetic Engineering Applications:
---------------------------------

"The Winnowing" by Isaac Asimov (short story),
  available in The Bicentennial Man and Other Stories (collection)
  and in Analog (Feb 1976)

  ON the use of man-made organisms, the one story that comes to mind
  initially is Asimov's 'The Winnowing' where an artificially created
  virus is to be used to zap 30% of the world's population (in poor
  subcontinent areas, of course).  This beastie was to be set up to
  infect only people with a certain genetic makeup, thereby saving
  the rich (WASP) folks. The interplay between the outraged scientist
  and the sponsors examines the ethics of triage.
                                             --  chuck <chuqui@MIT-MC>

"I Put My Blue Genes On" by Orson Scott Card (short story),
  available in Analog (August 1978)
	
  I remember a story about some colonists that revisit earth after
  a long time and find nothing but this group engaged in fighting a
  long since over war, the war was fought via genetic engineering (the
  story had a very strange flavor).   --  Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

Babel 17 by Samuel Delaney (novel)

  Babel 17 by Delany doesn't talk about genetic engineering exactly,
  but some of the results are the same.  The book is filled with
  "reworked" humans who have totally different physical forms.
  Getting reworked is about as serious as a trip to the dentist.
  Minor jobs are performed by the equivalent of tattoo artists.
                                   --  Dan Shapiro <DGSHAP at MIT-AI>

"Jerry Was A Man" by Robert Heinlein (short story),
  available in Assignment in Eternity (collection).

  Robert Heinlein's short story "Jerry Was A Man" is a particularly
  apt example in which a planned breeding experiment has produced
  throwbacks to Homo Neanderthalensis.  Due to a patent precedent
  covering created life forms, these intelligent near-human creatures
  are regarded as property and used for slave labor. The story covers
  the legal battles to win civil rights for the throwbacks and make
  them legally people.                 -- Greg <Kusnick at PARC-MAXC>

Methusalah's Children & Time Enough for Love by Robert Heinlein

  The Howard families are the result of genetic engineering if
  we stretch the point to include selective breeding in genetic
  engineering.  Actually it isn't much of a stretch, selective
  breeding is one of the crudest of the genetic engineer's tools.
                                      --  Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

Proteus by Morris West (novel)

  Proteus by Morris West centers around two genetic engineers engaging
  in bootleg experiments on people.  The results are impressive;
  a living asteroid and a chlorine breathing pseudo-human that has
  increased intelligence. It was a good book, I am surprised it hasn't
  been mentioned.                   --  Dan Shapiro <DGSHAP at MIT-AI>


Matter Transmission:
--------------------

The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester (novel)

  My personal favorite teleportation is "Jaunting" in Alfred Bester's
  The Stars My Destination.  Any one want to explain the mechanism?
  The end kind of implies dimension doorways brought around with some
  kind of psi force every one has.   --  Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>

  I am surprised that no one has yet mentioed the more "organic"
  (i.e. non-technological) occurrances of teleportation in SF,
  such as Jaunting (from Bester's "The Stars My Destination"; it was
  "discovered" by a scientist (Jaunte) who was trapped in a fire and
  through gut-reaction teleported out of it. In an effort to reproduce
  the effect, they put convicts, etc. in certain-death situations and
  watched for any of them to jaunt out.)
                                     --  <York.Multics at MIT-Multics>

One Step from Earth by Harry Harrison (collection)

  a Harry Harrison short story collection on matter transmission is
  entitled "One Step from Earth"         -- Steve <Weyer at PARC-MAXC>

  I don't want to get into the battle of possibility of teleportation,
  the article mentioned earlier in Niven's All the Myriad Ways covers
  that quite well, BUT Harry Harrison has a collection of stories
  under the title One Step from Earth.  In each of these stories
  the central theme is teleportation, social, criminal and physical
  problems connected with same.      --  Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>

The Goblin Reservation by Clifford Simak (novel)

  In the book "The Goblin Reservation" by Simak, the main character is
  duplicated during matter transmission.  He shows up at home after a
  trip outsystem (that he didn't expect to take) to discover that he
  arrived a week ago and was killed by particularly disgusting aliens.
  The rest of the book follows his (the professor's) actions along
  with a neanderthaller, a sabertooth tiger, a ghost, several fairies,
  a disgruntled goblin (made angry by being forced to live in drafty
  castles all those years) a dragon, some digusting aliens and the
  everpresent beautiful young maid as they unravel the surrounding
  mysteries.  I liked it alot.              --  Dan <DGShap at MIT-AI>

Way Station by Clifford Simak (novel)

  One of my favorite books is CLifford Simak's Way Station.  Briefly,
  it tells of a single Earthman who operates a relay station for a
  Galaxy-wide matter transportation system. He has done so for over
  100 years, but now Earth is begining to notice him.  The plot does
  not concern us here, instead I quote a desription on the matter
  transmission system:

    For the impulse patterns which carried creatures star to star
  were almost instantaneous, no matter what the distance.
    Moments ago the creature in the tank had rested in another tank
  in another station and the materializer had built up a pattern of
  it - not only of its body, but of its very vital force, the thing
  that gave it life.  Then the impulse pattern had moved across the
  gulfs of space almost instantaneously to the receiver of this
  station, where the pattern had been used to duplicate the body
  and the mind and memory and the life of that creature now lying
  dead many light years distant. And in the tank the new body and
  the new mind and memory and life had taken almost instant form -
  an entirely new being, but exactly like the old one, so that the
  identity continued and the consciousness (the very thought no more
  than momentarily interrupted), so that to all intent and purpose
  the being was the same.
    There were limitations to the impulse patterns, but they had
  nothing to do with speed, for the impulses could cross the
  galaxy with but little lag in time. But under certain conditions
  the patterns tended to break down and this was why there must be
  many stations - many thousands of them. Clouds of dust or gas or
  areas of high ionization seemed to disrupt the patterns and in
  those sectors of the galaxy where these conditions were encoun-
  tered, the distance jumps between stations were considerably cut
  down to keep the pattern true.

  (c) 1963 by Clifford D. Simak, quoted from the Del Rey edition
      ISBN 0-345-28420-8

  In other portions of the book he mentions that the original can
  be stored and sent many times as duplicates are desired, this is
  proposed to supply Enoch (the Station Keeper) with fresh eggs. No
  mention why the scanning process kills the body, but dead bodies
  are destroyed with acids.     -- <JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics>

The World of Null-A and The Players of Null-A by A.E. Van Vogt

  Another "organic" teleportation method is similarizing (? I am
  not sure of the actual term.) It is from VanVogt's Null-A books.
  The main character (Gilbert Gosseyn (sp)) can teleport merely by
  memorizing all of the relevant data about a point ("to 20 places")
  and then can pop around among these memorized points at will.  Of
  course, he DOES have 2 brains...)  --  <York.Multics at MIT-Multics>

[ SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

  The following description of Niven's novel A WORLD OUT OF TIME is
  the last piece of material in this digest. It gives away a major
  element of the plot of this novel. People who have not read this
  book may not wish to read any further.  --  RDD ]

A World Out of Time by Larry Niven (novel)

    The concept of using transporters to achive immortality mentioned
  by Don Erway <DErway at MIT-AI> was the crux of a Larry Niven (I
  believe) book, where the 'hero' is a thawed-out 20th Century (or
  thereabouts) 'corpsicle', who, after a long journey to the galactic
  center and back via ramrocket, returns to Earth to find chaos and a
  search for a 'fountain of youth'.
    Well, after a bit of gnashing around, the hero finds out that the
  'fountain of youth' is a specially tuned transfer booth where they
  seperate your atoms and those of various impurities.  Disposal of
  said impurities causes not only arrestation of aging, but a reversal
  of its effects.
    Interesting concept -- instead of surgery or medication, have your
  atomic pattern run through a filter circuit..  -- <Clyde at UTEXAS>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 JUL 1980 0358-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #14
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 14 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 14

  Today's Topics:     SF TV - Lathe, Physics Today - Neutrino &
                  Forward Info Transmission, Physics Tomorrow - MT,
                  TESB, Cambridge Visit, SF Blooper - Star Trek (TV)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1980 (Sunday) 1330-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Lathe of Heaven

The PBS production of "The Lathe of Heaven" is excellent, but beware:
One of the key paragraphs in the screenplay IS NOT in the book!!! It
occurs during an alien monologue. See if you can spot it.

--Dave

------------------------------

Date: 14 July 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: A brief article on Neutrino [ approx. length = 15K chars ]

The neutrino has been in the scientific news recently because of an
experiment which suggests that the neutrino may have a non-zero mass.
Robert Lasater <Lasater at SUMEX-AIM> has transcribed a short article
from the July 1980 Scientific American which briefly examines the
experiments and their far reaching implications for physics. It also
serves to cast an interesting light on our discussion of scientific
development and the feasibility of matter transmission.

Copies of the article have been established in files at the sites
listed below. Everyone should obtain the file from the site which is
most convenient for them. If you are unable to do so, please send mail
to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make sure that you
get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods for providing
space for the materials on their systems, and to Robert Lasater
for preparing the article.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI        AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS NUTRNO
PARC-MAXC     [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLovers-Neutrino.TXT
Rutgers       Ps:<Solomon>Nutrino-Scientific-American
SU-AI         NUTRNO.SF[T,DON]
MIT-Multics   >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>neutrino-article

 [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 12 July 1980 1253-edt
From: J. Spencer Love <JSLove at MIT-Multics>
Subject: Encoding numbers

I don't want to fool with the actual numbers (I don't have a copy
of them handy), but the general Idea for compressing information as
Godel numbers and then reexpressing the number more compactly as a
sum of otherwise irrelevant numbers doesn't have to be as simple as
was assumed. From the original sum which fit on a tty line (700 bits
max), we got 15,000+ bits to play with. Couldn't we use these, which
are relatively easily derived, to encode a REALLY large number, and
if that number is still too small, repeat as needed? The story didn't
need to state that they had carried this process to the limit of
available computer capacity and were left with a next step that was
orders of magnitude harder.  Remember, we are utterly unconcerned
with the difficulty of encoding; presumably these characters would
be unimpressed by Rivest's code.  After all, if I had 700 bits and
didn't care about the result much I could get MUCH more than 15,000
bits out; the relative inefficiency of the encoding step lends a
minescule credibility to this interpretation.

------------------------------

MOON@MIT-MC 07/12/80 17:00:44

10^13 + 10^10 = 10^23 ??

------------------------------

DANNY@MIT-AI 07/12/80 13:10:15 Re: KUSNICK'S ARITHMETIC

10^13 + 10^10 does not usually add up to 10^23, but I suppose that if
you are going to add together two numbers that Carl Sagan pulled out
of a hat, you might as well multiply them instead.

------------------------------

KED@MIT-MC 07/12/80 14:34:17

Math Notes: 10^13 bits plus 10^10 bits = 10^13 bits, not 10^23 as
claimed in the message from Greg. Also I stand by my estimate of at
least 10^30 bits of information. I am a physicist and could do a more
detailed analysis which would increase the lower bound of the number
of bits needed to be sent. Secondly, we are all not cray-1 computers,
so each person's brain has a unique set of interconnections which
determine what they do with the 10^13 bits of information. Anyway,
if anyone wants a more detailed explanation of my calculation, just
send me a message. Be seeing you.
                                          Keith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1980 (Sunday) 1716-EDT
From: WESTFW at WHARTON (William Westfield)
Subject: Matter transmission

As Greg pointed out [SFL V2 #12], all you have to do is distort the
probabilities involved, after all, there is a finite probability that
you will disappear from HERE and end up THERE without the need for any
machiney, psi, or whatever.  The trick is to fix things so that this
probability approachs 1, while the probability of scattering yourself
all over stays low.  How to do this isn't clear, but the guy from
Mercy Men (author ?) could probably learn it pretty easily.

------------------------------

BATALI@MIT-AI 07/12/80 15:44:29 Re: MT

     I agree about the improbability of using a scanning-rebuilding
type system. Such a setup would require scanning rates and transmis-
sion reliability that would be very difficult. Another problem with
scanning something living and expecting it to recover on the other end
is the mutually defeating requirements of high accuracy (to precisely
duplicate the "state" of the electro-chemical reactions) and the
necessity of using scanning radiation that is of low enough energy
not to destroy the very fragile protein and nucleic acid complexes. I
should point out that transmission electron microscopes can resolve on
the order of tens of angstroms which is barely possible to recognize
certain configurations but not nearly fine enough to record (say) the
state of a sodium channel in a neuron.  But there is no question of
using a transmission electron microscope on living tissue -- and even
the (quite dead) preparations used must be viewed quickly before the
interesting stuff disintegrates.

     Still, a scanning system could be used for cargo -- perhaps
the element ratios of the transmitted matter could be preserved. It
would be useful to bring metals back from the asteroids. But that is
interesting also because, as matter isn't actually transmitted, the
receiver must use a supply of matter which is then "transmuted"
according to the incoming signal. So just make a tape of some gold...

     Certainly, though, all of this depends on future science not
modifying anything we think we know now. A new form of radiation
that obeys a completely new uncertainty principle is certainly not
impossible. But scanning-rebuilding makes me nervous and I would
prefer that something else be used. If we get to dream about the
way science will be in the future, I'll dream about what I would
hope will be discovered.

     A possibility was suggested by the observation that we move
enormous amounts of information around whenever we cross a room. The
reason that this works is that matter is in equilibrium. The reason
that life works is that the interaction between the electronic forces
and the matter in the particles that respond to them is capable of
many stable configurations -- stable enough for evolution to occur.

     Matter takes much energy to get moving, electromagnetic forces
don't.(?) I wonder if some other type of "stuff" exists that doesn't
have momentum but still forms stable configurations with electro-
magnetism. What we would do then is to replace the matter in a body by
this stuff and then send it wherever we wanted to. Hopefully the stuff
would be convertible to/from energy so we could do the replacement a
particle at a time, using the energy from the matter.

     I suggest a field, in which matter converts to this new material
and instantly shoots off in some preferred direction at the speed of
light. A station in the path of the beam neutralizes it and the matter
reappears.

     "Sure," you say, "you can suggest anything."
     "Yes," I say, "this IS science fiction."

				John Batali

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 07/12/80 15:56:26 Re: empire strikes back sketchbook

  Just out is the Empire Strikes Back Sketchbook by joe Johnston and
company. Its not a bad read, although it goes a little too quickly,
for my tastes. In it you can see Yoda as a sort of Santa Claus - gnome
in his early incarnations, see how the snowspeeders were adapted from
Y-wing fighters, see how Boba Fett used to be a "supercommando", see
the rationale behind the two-footed Imperial Walkers,see the....
well, you get the idea. For $5.95 it's not a bad buy, but as I say, it
does go by very fast. Took me only 30 minutes to seriously digest it.
  Also, and I mention it only in passing, is a hardback version of the
novelization, filled with storyboard drawings and concept sketches by
Ralph McQuarrie. Its fair.

------------------------------

Date:  13 July 1980 05:51 edt
From:  Margulies at MIT-Multics, Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Upcoming visit

I will be in Cambridge/Boston for 3 weeks starting Wednesday. I'd
like to meet some of the Boston/Cambridge SF-LOVERS, anyone with
ideas for facilitating same is encouraged to drop me a line.

                        --paul

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/14/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It points
out a blooper in the Star Trek episode "Court Martial", and asks a
question about an actor. People who have not seen this episode may
not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  9 Jul 1980 2144-PDT
From: Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: STAR TREK BLOOPER 

I saw a really nice blooper on Star Trek last night.  In the
"Court Martial" episode, a disgruntled member of the Enterprise
crew is hiding on the ship.  The others find Ben by using the
acoustical recorder of the computer, which can amplify sounds
by a factor of "one to the fourth power".  Not too much power
gain there.

Overall, "Courtmartial" must be one of the poorer episodes. Kirk
is on trial for the supposed death of Ben. The key element in
the prosecution's case is a computer log which shows that Kirk
jettisoned Ben's pod while the ship was on "Yellow Alert". Kirk
claims he ejected the pod while on "Red Alert", and insists the
computer is wrong. Unfortunately, this conflict is never resolved,
even though much is made of a chess program written by Spock which
"logically" should play him to a draw, but actually loses several
times to Spock. Rather, the court reconvenes on the "Enterprise"
where Ben is found using the acoustic amplifier. The final conflict
between Ben and Kirk is (what else) a fist fight. The plot is not
helped by having the prosecutor be a former lover of Kirk's.  Nor
are the discrepancies in what is allowed as testimony believable. 
The prosecution asks Spock several "hypothetical" questions, but
objects when the defense asks a question "which calls for a
conclusion from the witness."

In its defense, there are several interesting references to
information storage and retrieval, including a desk sized
device which indexes centuries of legal cases.

I described the episode in some detail, because the actor who
played the lawyer for Kirk looked familiar.  Does anyone know
his name?  Is he a Star Trek regular?

                                                  robert

[ Kirk's lawyer, Samuel Gogley, was played by Elisha Cook, Jr.
  This part was his only role on Star Trek.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 JUL 1980 0448-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #15
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 15 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 15

 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Hanger 18 & Portraying the Government,
                 Physics Tomorrow - MT, Physics Today - Forward Info
                   Transmission, SF Books, Space Week in LA, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 July 1980 13:29-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: HANGAR 18 and INFO WANTED

HANGAR 18 ... whatever happened to the scientific method? This film
was a very cheap thought out film.  I felt that the audience was
cheated of a potentially good story.  There were many loose ends.
I don't wnat to discuss the film yet, until others have seen it and
want to comment.

Does anyone remember the name of the film (having a similar plot to
HANGAR 18) in which the US Government fakes a manned trip to Mars as
a result of faulty equipment. They leave the astronauts off the vessel
and fake a landing.  The plot revolves around what happens when the
space craft burns up reentering earth's atmosphere.  What do you do
with 3 live astronauts that the world thinks are dead?

I have a general observation about the current trend in representing
the US Government.  I am not thrilled by all that the government
does in real life, but there seems to be a trend to represent the
government as an evil force.  I can't imagine a film that would
represent the government in a good light.  What do people think about
this ... what will the future bring? Will we have more and more films
that take shots at our government?  As I said earlier I have a hard
enough time dealing with what it does in real life whithout having to
leave a theater feeling even worse.
                                 --Bill (please excuse my ramblings!)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 0910-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Matter transmission

William Westfield's message today reminds me that Jeremy Bernstein
had an article on I.I. Rabi in the "New Yorker" some years ago in
which Rabi says something like "there is a finite probability that
the collision of two particles will produce a grand piano."

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 1525-PDT
From: Ken Olum <KDO at SU-AI>
Subject: Magic information encoding   

Any scheme for encoding N bits of information in less than N bits
is going to have some numbers it can't encode.  You can't get more
information out of an encoding scheme than you put in.  If you can
encode a great deal of information in very few bits, then the chance
than the message you want to send can be encoded becomes vanishingly
small.  Searching for a method that will encode it doesn't work
either; you have to tell the recipient which method you used, thus
requiring more information transfer.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 0613-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: TANSTAAFL

Come ON, you guys.  Why is the number 2^504 so vitally expressive
of both of us?  It represents your weight and my IQ -- and is the
maximum number of different messages that can be expressed by 72
ascii characters, no matter how ingenious an encoding scheme is
used. I imagine that one could come up with some proof regarding
the compressibility of giant numbers, but just looking at it from
the front end first, there are only that many messages you can
encode.  I just flipped a coin 4 times.  It came up heads, tails,
heads, and heads.  Now ANY encoding of that last sentence HAS to
contain AT LEAST 4 bits.  (Well, almost any encoding.  I could
always weight the scheme to favor that message.  But given that
I want to report the results of flipping a coin 4 times, I have
to send on the average, at least 4 bits.)  I would be very
surprised to find a compression scheme that retained even the
sketchiest semantics of a piece of text at any better than, say,
a bit per word.
   However, I wander from the point, which is this: if you are
compressing (say) 1000-bit messages into lines of 72 ascii chars,
you can only send one out of 2^496. Even if only one in a trillion
is interesting or worth encoding, you still have a lot of hard
choices ahead of you.
   Conceptualization may be broken down as global or local. The local
is the mode of the builder, putting together known pieces to form new
structure; the global is the mode of the dreamer, drawing the shape of
the possible by universal constraints: For example, we have Malthus
(global) vs Ricardo (local) in economics and Jefferson (global) vs
Hamilton (local) in politics.  However, the doer is to be cautioned
against thinking globally, as he may mistake the possible for the
achievable; equally is the dreamer to be cautioned against thinking
locally, in steps, as he may mistake the plausible for the possible.
I think that Pohl in Starbow's End is guilty of this last.
		--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 10:01 am PDT (Monday)
From: Kusnick at PARC-MAXC
Subject: BLUSH!!

Actually, 10^10 + 10^13 is the Godel encoding of my REAL message,
comprising some 10^23 characters of information -- which NONE of you
apparently bothered to decode and read.  Oh, well, it's your loss...

			-- Greg

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 1053-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "Web of Angels"

    "Web of Angels" by John M. Ford is an interesting new book,
sort of a mixture of Samuel Delany's style and the subject of
"Shockwave Rider". A future galactic civilization has FTL ships,
anti-gravity, life-prolonging treatments etc., but the greatest of
their tools is the Web, a universal communication and processing
system that can reach any part of the Galaxy instantaneously. As a
result, people are graded by their ability to use the system: First
Literacy is the ability to understand symbols, Second Literacy to
run programs, and Third to write code. People without First Literacy
are not allowed to leave their planet.  The book's protagonist has
Fourth Literacy: the power to make unauthorized use of the system
resources in spite of safeguards. He calls it Webspinning. The Bell
Stellar Communications Corporation terminates spinners with extreme
prejudice.  The black-clad agents of CIRCE are constantly hunting
for them.  Far worse, though, are the Geisthounds, semi-intelligent
programs that roam the Web in search of tampering.  While the hero
is teaching his lover to become a spinner she is murdered by them.
    All of this is mixed in with legends, the Tarot, and old
folksongs. The way he scatters these tidbits around shows either
amazing erudition or, if they are all invented, equally amazing
imagination.  His view of computers is perhaps too romantic, but
the glitter of the rest of the story more than makes up for it.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 09:03 PDT
From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: doing more with less

The theme mentioned by DLW@MIT-AI -- "if you give a person fewer
resources to work with, he will achieve a better solution" in
Gold at the Starbow's End (which I haven't read) reminds me of the
situation which was set up on the ship Earthling in Frank Herbert's
Destination: Void, i.e.  stick people far enough out in space with
dead navigation systems and no outside help and they may just have
to invent "consciousness" in a machine to get out of the predicament.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 0531-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: familiar lawyer on Star Trek

     The lawyer on the Court Martial episode, Elisha Cook, Jr., may
look familiar because he has a marvelous history of being a punk
gunman in 1930's and 1940's movies.  One of his best was as a minor
private detective with Bogart in The Big Sleep.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 1538-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Space Week in LA

In commemoration of the 11th. anniversary of the first Lunar Landing
and the 4th. anniversary of the Viking landing on Mars, the American
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), the Organization for
the Advancement of Space Industrialization (OASIS), and the Calif.
Musueum of Science and Industry present:

                              SPACE WEEK
                                  at
              The Calif. Museum of Science and Industry
                     700 State Drive, Los Angeles
                     (Across the street from USC)

Activities include a Getaway Special Workshop, a panel discussion on
the Moon Treaty, and an art contest for students in grades 4-12.  The
Moon Treaty discussion promises to be very interesting; on the panel
will be Lee Ratiner, lobbiest for the L5 society, speaking against the
treaty.  Also, Ray Bradbury, Harry Stine, and astronaut Pete Conrad
are scheduled to speak.

SCHEDULE:

Saturday, July 19                    Sunday, July 20
  9-noon   Getaway Special             9-noon   Getaway Special
             Workshop                             Workshop
   10-4    Art Contest                  1-6     Multimedia space shows
   1:00    Ray Bradbury                         Nichelle Nichols
   2:00    Jim French from JPL                  Astronaut Pete Conrad
   3:00    G. Harry Stine                       Live concert
   4:00    Moon Treaty Panel
             discussion
			

For further info contact me (KATZ@ISIF)
  or call the museum at 749-0101 ext. 228

			Alan

PS. for those who dont know, the Getaway special is an inexpensive
    way to buy a small amount of payload on the Space Shuttle.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/15/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not seen these
movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 06 JUL 1980 1741-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: nits, gnats, and other beasties in TESB . . . .

  First, the nit that people have been picking here and mundanely:
when Han is brought into the freezing chamber, he's wearing \two/ sets
of restraints, one across the biceps, holding the upper arms against
the rib cage, (looking rather like the clamp strapping used on crates)
and one acting like normal handcuffs.  A couple of the repulsive
pint-size types take around 15 seconds to remove this second set (they
aren't exactly inobtrusive about it either) and we see Han flexing his
forearms as he's dropped into the pit.  When he comes out ("Solo on
ice", as TIME put it), the upper strap isn't visible, but his arms are
bent only at the elbow, in the way they could be if, for instance, he
were trying to protect his face but had been stopped by the strap.

  (And while we're talking about tributes, referencing other SF, etc.
--- what \is/ that stuff they freeze him in?  Half the time it sounds
like "carbonite" (which is a bit mundane), and the other half like
"corbomite" (as in the first-season STAR TREK episode, "The Corbomite
Maneuver").)

  Vader is certainly playing some sort of game in his duel with Luke;
it isn't until they come together for the third or fourth time that
he handles his lightsaber with both hands (I could swear I saw waving
a finger of his other hand at Luke when he says how much Luke has
learned of the Force). In fact, I think he doesn't start using both
hands until Luke gets him in the shoulder of the arm he was using.

[ In the novelization of TESB the material that Han is frozen in
  is "carbonite".  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 JUL 1980 0443-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #16
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 16 July 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:  SF TV - Elisha, SF Movies - Capricorn 1 & Hanger 18
                       & Portraying the Government, SF Books,
                Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission, TZFF, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  15 July 1980 11:07 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Elisha Cook

Elisha Cook has become famous as the answer to many movie trivia
questions e.g. "Who played the part of Jimmy (or Johnnie, or
something) in The Big Sleep?".  As a matter of fact, there is a
trivia group that calls themselves the Elisha Cookies.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1980 00:00
From: Tou at PARC-MAXC, SHL at MIT-MC, CHUQUI at MIT-MC

The film about a fake U.S. manned trip to Mars was "Capricorn
One", with Eliot Gould, O.J. Simpson and Telly Sevalas.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1980 (Tuesday) 0838-PST
From: HIRGELT at LLL-MFE
Subject: Capricorn 1 & Hangar 18

To answer Bill Daul's question:

The movie is Capricorn 1. Starred people like James Brolin (one of
the astronauts), Brenda Vacarro as his wife, and Elliot Gould as
the reporter that tracks down the story. It doesn't really paint a
pretty picture of the government.

The group that put out Hangar 18 is Sunn Pictures (or some such).
The seem to have a history of this class of picture, relatively
sensational but apparently low on facts, science and other
reasonable things.  At least that has been my impression.  Its
really a shame since I suspect some people take this thing
seriously. 

Ed

------------------------------

DR@MIT-MC 07/15/80 09:53:22 Re: Bill Daul's movie query

     The movie you're inquiring about is Capricorn One.  As to your
comment about the movies making attacks on the US Government, I think
it is pretty unfortunate that they do that, but that seems to be the
general trend in movies now days: some brave reporter (or something
or other like that) vs the establishment.  And that is true not only
for Sci-Fi movies, but in general a lot of post-Watergate movies seem
to deal with the subject of government corruption. And really, I seem
to recollect having seen some old movies where the government is
portrayed as the good guy, trying to send a man to the moon, Mars or
somewhere else where no man has gone before. These movies are full of
see through heroics and are generally very boring (President Ford's
speech last night reminds me of them), and after you've seen one,
you've seen them all.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 (Monday) 0820-EST
From: DYER at NBS-10
Subject: (More) encoding -- compact languages

     I seem to recall a story by Samuel Delany in which there is
a race of alien beings that supposedly can describe the makeup,
layout (whatever...) of a nuclear power generator (in the book
such a device is about the size of a middlin' big asteroid and
is very, VERY complicated) to the extent that one alien can say
\seven/ words (!) [Note: presumably very small, english like
words] to another alien, whereupon the second alien can go home
and build his own power generator from the description given
by the first.  With a language like that, who needs encoding?
However, I think that Delany pointed out that such a language
would have blank spots in it (like english, even) and would end
up not having words for concepts common among other languages.

     I think that the book was "Babel 17", but it may have been
in one of his short stories instead....

lmd

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 07/15/80 07:26:32 Re: Data compression and coding schemes

We have developed a discussion of how to express N bits of data into
less than N bits.  For purely random data, you cannot do it; however,
you can express a PATTERN of N bits in less than N bits.  A good
example of this is digital transmission of human speech.

If we just digitize speech, we need approximently 6000 eight-bit
samples/sec.  This works out to be 48Kbits/sec.  On the other hand, if
we analyze the speech and break it down into it's component parts, the
information can be transmitted at a rate of 2400 bits/sec.  We have
just achieved a data compression of 20 with no loss of information.

The key to any data compression is to know what patterns have to be
conveyed. If both the originating and the receiving end agree on the
commonality of certain messages, we can achieve a remarkable reduction
in bandwidth required to convey information.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 1617-PDT
From: Steve Saunders <SAUNDERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Compact encodings?

All you guys who want to "represent" a huge number (lots of
information bits) by a smaller number (fewer bits) had better bone up
on information and computability theory, especially Kolmogorov/Chaitin
complexity measures.  Basically you will find that the number of bits
in the message can almost never exceed the bits transmitted plus the
bits agreed upon ahead of time (in the encoding scheme).  In other
words, if you send only n bits your hearer gets to choose among
at most 2**n possibilities for interpretations.  Some of those
interpretations can be very "big", of course ... if for example
the possible messages are the Mersenne numbers, or the powers of a
googol, or whatever. But these are NOT "many-bit messages compactly
represented", in the sense of the SF-LOVERS discussion.  They are
very far apart, very sparsely scattered among the integers; searching
among them for one that begins (say) with the message you want to send
is definitely not a reasonable way to compress your message text!

(Note that the naive "compression ratio" is so disconnected from
 reality that it can easily be made infinite -- let my agreed-upon
 texts be the integers, the even integers, the divisible-by-3's,
 -by-4's, etc.; then a short message from me can be decoded into an
 infinite text, implying that I have achieved infinite compression!)

Kolmogorov and Chaitin show why these simple intuitive impossibility
arguments are really the way things are, and why you can't expect
to find a short representation for your arbitrary message by just
padding it with nulls (or nonsense) until the padded result has a
short representation.  It isn't just these simple tricks that fail;
you can't even win by sending an arbitrary computer program to
reconstruct your message text.

Of course, you CAN get lucky and be able to "represent" some
particular long message under some particular encoding arrangement in
some particularly short way; but you can't do this often, nor can you
predict when it will be worth your while to try.  Maybe the Starbow's
End message is supposed to be such a lucky text?

The basic answer to the proposition that Goedel numbering is a way to
compress information is that, in a very strong sense, there is no such
thing!

		Steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1980 00:17-EDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <AQE at MIT-MC>
Subject: Godel at the Starbow's End

The following is excerpted from "Looking for the Starbow", an
article by Fred Pohl in Destinies, V2 #1 (Feb-Mar 80) which could
be interpreted as an apology for "The Gold at the Starbow's End"
(although it also contains a speculation (threat?) about expanding
the story into a book!):

   "I had given one of those Godel numbers, and incautiously mentioned
    that it was too large for any computer to write out. Thirty people
    wrote me at once to say that it wasn't, and at least half a dozen
    actually programmed computers to write it out. (I keep one of the
    printouts pinned up on my office wall as a reminder of humility.)
    I do have a sort of excuse for that one.  In the first draft of
    the story I had a REALLY big number, but when I revised it I
    had a moment's compassion for the typesetters and left off one
    superscript."

The article also tells about a paper by John M. McKinley and Paul
Doherty, two "meddling physicists" from Oakland University in
Michigan who show that there isn't really a starbow. Pohl continues:

   "One of the best reasons for writing science fiction is the
    science-fiction audience.  They are SMART.  They miss very
    little. They understand almost anything. It is a constantly
    stimulating challenge to find something to say that is both
    new and interesting to them; and when they write in to raise
    a point that has not occured to the author it is like having
    your opponent make an unexpectedly brilliant move in a chess
    game. True, it may cost you the game.  But that's what makes
    it interesting!"
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 0234-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: TZFF Epilogue

I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who came to the
Twilight Zone Film Festival. The peak turnout was around 75 people,
which is pretty respectable, all things considered.

I hope everyone enjoyed the brief visit to the days of early 1960's
television, and the "fifth dimension, beyond that which are known
to man".  Special thanks goes to Mike O'Brien for running off to a
library to pick up the short subjects on very short notice.

I hope to hold another TZFF at some point in the future, though
exactly when is completely unknown at this time.

By the way, I made a special point to look out for any TCCC
representatives who might have been among the crowd.  I am sorry
(or is it glad?) to report that I could find nobody that I could
definitely identify as such an entity. There were plenty of pretty
strange people though.

Once again, thanks!

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/16/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not seen these
movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 at 0122-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB: VARIANT VERSIONS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My Friend The Ultimate SW Fan reports that the 35mm version is not
really a let-down.  In some ways, it seems sharper, and there are
some things in it that weren't in the 70mm print shown in Houston.
When Luke is floating in the bacta fluid, there's a shot of Leia,
et al., watching through the infirmary window, for one.  MFTUSWF
also thinks there's more to the battle with the Walkers. Then, at
the end, when Lando and Chewie are leaving, in addition to:

   LANDO:  Luke, we're ready for take off.
   LUKE:   Good luck, Lando. \*/ I'll meet you at the rendezvous
           point on . . . Tatooine.
   LANDO:  Princess, we'll find Han, I promise.
   LUKE:   Chewie, I'll be waiting for your signal.  Take care,
           you two.  May the force be with you.

Lando has an additional line at the point marked by the asterisk,
"When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact
you,", which makes the reference to the signal fit in better. Austin
is on its 2nd 70mm print, the first having been defective, and the
infirmary window scene and that extra line ARE now in it. (And the
latter is indeed absent from our tape of the sound track made in
Houston.)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB PHONO RECORD: THE STORY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The "Empire" dialogue phono album is out, a single LP at about $5,
and a pretty good job. (Certainly the voices are far clearer than the
surreptitious tape recording we're transcribing from!)  The narrator
is much more dramatic than the one for the SW-4 story album, perhaps
even a bit too much so.  The "big romantic scene" is absent, and the
only major booboo noted on the first listening was the Falcon being
described as clinging to the bottom of the Imperial Star Destroyer
"like a pilot fish on a whale".  The city slicker who wrote that not
only didn't know a pilot fish from a remora, but didn't know his TESB!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 JUL 1980 0514-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #17
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 17 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:  Administrivia, Situation simulation - multi-person,
                Physics Today - Forward Info Transmission, SF Movies,
                SF Books- Destinies & Time Story & Humor, Unicon, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Administrivia: On copyrighted materials

A significant percentage of the material distributed through SF-LOVERS
has always referenced or summarized material from copyrighted, mass
distribution sources.  Recently however I have become concerned about
the increasing number of cases where people have simply transcribed
copyrighted material and the increasing number of suggestions that I
have received for material to be transcribed. Clearly this is illegal.
It is also unnecessary since the material is already available from
other sources.  And further it delays other material by taking up
limited resources. 

Therefore let's avoid creating potential problems by not submitting
copyrighted material. As the saying goes "Its the law!".      --  RDD

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1980 at 2117-CDT
From: david at UTEXAS
Subject: Imagine a..

Computer simulation of ultimate personal vehicle: travel around the
world, at varying scales.  Sensations: sight, sound, smell(?) in
helmet.  Speed, direction controls in hand/foot/vocal/etc.  control.
(No Gs because of anti-gravity, anti-inertial, automatically
compensated drive!)

Imagine situation where several people share a common "vehicle".
Suppose the effect of everyone's control was averaged. Each person
presented with image of their individual ship, as part of group
under average control. What would that be like?

(P.S. I don't always get a chance to check the bboards.  Please
      send me a copy.)

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 07/16/80 14:38:18 Re:  speech compression

It's fine to extract the "meaningful" entities from a stream of
information and transmit only those, but be careful what you regard
as meaningful.  Human speech contains alot more information than the
strings of phonemes which compose words.  A voice contains emphasis,
pitch variations (which aid in parsing sentences) accent, and personal
signatures in the tambor.  If you listen to a synthesized voice (or a
poor tape recording) you are immediately aware of what is missing.
You understand what is being said, but not all of what was said, if
you get my drift.
	Dan

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 07/16/80 09:03:57

I am pretty sure that the movie "Capricorn One" is the one which DAUL
mentioned as simlar to "Hangar 18".  It's about a faked space mission
which backfires in some way.  Incidentally, if you want a ridiculous
task, try justifying space industries to some one who BELIEVED
Capricorn One.....  It's interesting.

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 07/16/80 09:07:54

Has any one seen the new Destinies?  It has a big excerpt for
Heinlein's new book, "Expanded Universe." It is a fact/fiction combo,
and from the excerpt, it looks as though the old master has done it
again. Essentially, it's an anthology edited and enriched by R.A.H.
But there are some really interesting things, like how to survive a
nuclear holacaust, general advice, etc;

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1980 1944-EDT (Tuesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: Answers to queries : Title of a story about a society which
                              uses time as currency  [ SFL V1 #174 ]

Here are the answers (duplicates removed) to my query.
(Thanx to all who replied)

			Doug

       - - - - - - - - - - query replies - - - - - - - - - -

 I think that Playboy ran a short fiction piece with the name "Time
 is Money" or somesuch a few years back. You clasp hands to make a
 transaction, and a computer device records it. The story is about
 one guy who runs out of time...    -- Leo P. Harten <LPH at MIT-MC>


 There was a novel written by a guy called Van Heynk (I know this is
 not correct, I'll give you the correct name tomorrow) named "Where
 were you last pluterday."  It involved a society where people could
 earn time (literally) for a vacation. -- Rich Pattis <REP at SU-AI>


------------------------------

Date: 13 JUL 1980 2239-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: humor

  Much of Leiber's stuff is humorous in a sardonic fashion; THE SILVER
EGGHEADS, A SPECTER IS HAUNTING TEXAS, THE GREEN MILLENNIUM.
  Silverberg's UP THE LINE is alleged to be funny, and also to be
pornographic, although it didn't seem to me to be much of either.
  THE INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER (and sequels, THE CASTLE OF IRON recently
republished by Del Rey with TIC as THE COMPLETE ENCHANTER, a canard
because it did not include THE WALL OF SERPENTS) is a quantified-magic
story, very funny if you appreciate that variety of humor (a mixture
of dry wit and slapstick).  One of the classics, certainly; the line
"Yngvi is a louse!"  is one of the most recognized graffiti in fandom
today.  All by Pratt and de Camp (or de Camp and Pratt, depending on
which source you consult).
  De Camp has done a number of other works which are humorous (or
at least witty, which is frequently not the same thing): THE GOBLIN
TOWER, THE FALLIBLE FIEND, LAND OF UNREASON (also with Pratt).
  THE FLYING SORCERER by Gerrold and Niven is one of the best modern
efforts, although I found it somewhat strained after a long barrage of
snickering at the ignorant natives who believe magic works; it also
has a lovely punch line for a conclusion.
  There are also two anthologies of humorous SF, of which the only
title I can currently recollect is INFINITE JESTS; don't recall
whether that is the one assembled by Haldeman or by Silverberg, but
would say without hesitation that the best story in either one is
"Useful Phrases for the Tourist"--by Joanna Russ, who is the \last/
person I would expect to come up with such a howlingly funny piece
(the humor comes not necessarily from the lines but from visualizing
the situations in which they would be useful--broad slapstick in some
places, but I \like/ \good/ slapstick).  (Also another much older
anthology, collected by Idella (?) Purnell Stone; good attempts but
nothing spectacular.)
  Brunner did three articles, all appearing in his collection
TIME JUMP, allegedly from a galaxy-wide version of CONSUMER
REPORTS --- a perfect parody of the style, but the products tested
(wishing machines, time travelers) are something else, as are the
results they get.
  Randall Garrett (sp?) has just gotten a book out from Starblaze;
called TAKEOFF, it's a collection of his pastiches and parodies from
the last 30 years. The pastiches are average, and the parodies aren't,
overall, up to the very high standard set by John Sladek when he was
writing pseudonymous parodies of various writers for F&SF, but there
are some real gems, especially "Backstage Lensman", which combines a
variety of tomfoolery with just the right touch out of THE CAINE
MUTINY.  (This one appeared in ANALOG within the past few years.)
  Trying to be funny, but not making it (to my mind): EARTHMAN'S
BURDEN and the sequel, STAR PRINCE CHARLIE, by Dickson and Anderson
(or vice-versa); the Hokas, having no sense of the boundary between
fact and fiction, imagine themselves to be various fictional
individuals --- Casey at the bat, Leporello (Don Juan's henchman),
cowboys (with green reptiles instead of Groaci for Indians), and so
on. Very tiresome.
  Somewhat better: Dickson alone, with the Dilbians (intelligent
Kodiak bears, basically) in SPATIAL EXPRESS and SPACEPAW. Characters
(human and otherwise) with rather different--and elastic--moral
systems.
  I think this is enough for the moment.

------------------------------

Date:  16 July 1980 22:03 edt
From:  JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Timelords

A thought provoked by a reairing of a "Peanuts" special.  Both Snoopy
and Oscar the Grouch seem to have interiors to houses larger then the
outside. Perhaps they are Time-Lords?  NOTE - this reference will not
be understood by non-Dr. Who fans, ask a friend.
				<jmt>

------------------------------

Israel@MIT-AI 07/16/80 18:26:05 Re: Unicon

Is anyone going to be at Unicon (the U of Md. SF Society Convention)
this weekend?
- Bruce

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/17/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not seen these
movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  9 Jul 1980 at 1355-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS
Subject: Lucas and his numbers

We all know the history of the 1138, don't we? Of course there was the
movie THX-1138. There was also the movie AMERICAN GRAFFITI where one
of the cars had a California license THX-138 (or 138-THX, I forget
which way Calif. licenses go). And of course, in STAR WARS:

   IMPERIAL OFFICER: Where are you going with this . . . thing?

   LUKE: Prisoner transfer from cell block 1138.

   etc...

Have I left any out?  Does anybody know the story behind the NEW
favorite number? The number is 327.  When the MF is being brought
aboard the Death Star in SW-4, an Imperial voice is heard giving an
order: "Clear bay 327. We are opening the magnetic field." Well, in
TESB, when the MF lands at Bespin, the patrol which escorts them in
tells them "Permission granted to land on platform 327."  Deja vu!
					king

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1980 1038-PDT
From: Dwight E. Cass  <CASS at USC-ISID>
Reply-To: CASS@USC-ISIE
Subject: TESB - The Other One

After quite a bit of discussion, I have come to believe that Leia
is NOT the Other.  I tend to believe that the Other is either an
entirely new character, or Leia's (and Luke's..) yet unborn child.
Reasoning:

  - It seems obivious that Leia and Luke should become close enough
    (if not already), to have a child.  Such a child would allow an
    entirely new character, tied to the rest of the tradition to
    finish the last chapters of the saga.

  - Leia has NOT demonstrated any special ability!  During the
    rescue sequence Luke was simply controlling her mind in much
    the same was as OBK did with the Guards just before the cantina
    scene in SW.

  - As I understand the rumor mill, the only characters which
    survive through all nine SW stories are R2D2 and C3PO, but to
    date, SW has turned out to be "The Skywalker Family Story."
    As corny as it sounds, why should that change?

  - Why is Yoda the only one to see that there is another?  You
    would think that if the Other was in the immediate future that
    OBK would also see...  Is it possible that the Other only just
    popped into the future because Luke picked his course?  If Leia
    was the Other, then both OBK and Yoda should be able to see that
    from the begining.

I know, Lucas can change the story line at any time.  I guess only
time can truly tell.

PS: I take for granted that DV is Luke's father!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 JUL 1980 0508-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #18
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 18 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 18

Today's Topics: Filksongs, Physics Today- Data Compression and Speech,
                Number Jokes, SF Books- Rammer to A World Out of Time,
                SW Radio, TESB, SF TV- Elisha, SF Bloopers- Star Trek
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1980 at 2359-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ FOCUS ON FILKING ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

KANTELE is a filk fanzine with relevant text of the usual zine type,
plus songs, some with sheetmusic.  A "goodie" for active (or even
devoted passive) filkers.  Pub'd quarterly by The Filk Foundation,
(expatriate Texan) Margaret Middleton, ed., PO Box 9911, Little Rock,
AR, 72219.  80 cents per copy; bundle of 10 copies, $3.50. It is the
source from which the following is excerpted.

"MUSICAL CHAS is a fanzine whose (initial issue's) contents are
  filksongs.  14 pages.  Special trial issue for a quarter; regular
  issues will be 75 cents or The Usual.  Editor Charlie Hamilton,
  c/o CHASFANS, PO Box 1287, Washington, D.C., 20013.

"APA-FILK is just what the name implies-- an apa [like SF-L, which
 Ms. Middleton refers to as APA-ARPA] devoted to filksinging. Send
 a SASE to query the price which varies from issue to issue depending
 on thickness. Plenty of room for more contributors; send 50 copies of
 your contribution along with some money for postage costs. Collating
 deadlines are the firsts of Feb., May, Aug., & Nov..  Lyrics are
 swapped, philosophy of filk composition is discussed, some music
 theory is even explained.  Collator is Robert Bryan Lipton,
 5566 Green Place, Woodmere, NY, 11598."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ KANTELE'S RUN-DOWN OF FILK SONGBOOKS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"SING A SONG OF TREKKIN", a group of 20 Star Trek-based songs by
  Roberta Rogow, is slickly bound, professionally printed, and priced
  at $4.95. Has sheet music for all songs and an illustrating cartoon
  for each. From Caterpilllar Music, 8 Yale St., Nutley, NJ, 07110

"The NESFA Hymnal", 2nd ed., has done a careful job on their copyright
  clearances, which no doubt limited their options considerably. There
  is a lot which is noticeably not there, esp from Midwestern singers,
  though there is an infusion from Minneapolis and some West Coasters.

"The HOPSFA Hymnal"'s last edition is more than slightly notorious for
  copyright infringements and general printing without permissions.
  When the University found out about the uproar, it confiscated the
  text material (a set of computer tapes).

"Bruce Pelz' FILKSONG MANUAL was originally printed in 4 parts from
  1965 to 1969; parts 1-3 are combined in one vol. in the current
  edition, with part 4 separate. Much of what is here was picked up
  by NESFA and HOPSFA...only they left out the sheetmusic.  Some of
  what \didn't/ get into the other volumes:
     the 4 main songs from SILVERLOCK: "My Fair Femmefan"; Pelz'
     tunes for "Green Hills of Earth" and "Grand Canal"; "The
     Duke of Normandy" by Randall Garrett; "The Lay of Gil-Galad"
     from LORD OF THE RINGS; etc., etc...
  The set goes for $4 from Pelz at 15931 Kalisher St., Granada Hills,
  CA, 91344.

"THE STANDING SONG STONE BOOK (sic) has Soc. for Creative Anachronism
  songs, most to reasonably familiar tunes.  From Crag "Goodleech"
  Duggin, Columbia, MO, 65201.  No price quoted.

"THE COEUR D'ENNUI LETCHER'S GUILD SONGBOOK, a collection of
  medieval bawdy lyrics, identifies itself as 'definitely NOT
  an official SCA publication", but as a product of the Shire
  of Coeur d'Ennui, PO Box 1931, Des Moines, IA, 50306.  No
  sheetmusic; no price given."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ HERE'S THE SONG, WHAT'S THE MUSIC? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Has anyone the melody (on paper) and chords for the version of "Green
Hills of Earth" in which the verse is the Obi-Wan (or Force) theme,
and the chorus is the Leia theme?

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 07/17/80 07:33:17
Re:  Data compression and human speech. [ see SFL V2 #16 ]

Two days ago I discussed data compression using human speech as an
example.  The example I used comes from the real world.  While at a
military/govt. electronics show, I was treated to a demonstration of
a system that analyzed human speech and transmitted the information
to a receiving unit at 2400bps.  The receiving unit used the data
stream to synthesize the input speech.

The system was amazing in it's ability to recreate small nuances of
the speaker's voice. Not only was it possible to fully understand
what the speaker was saying, but it was possible to identify the
speaker and his/her emotional state.  The quality appeared to be
about 90% that of an ordinary phone line.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date:  18 July 1980 00:59 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  stop me if you've heard this one

The numbering of jokes brings Bernie Greenberg's Einstein jokes to
mind (as opposed to absentminded professor jokes).  These run more
or less:

   the summation of T sub sigma sigma times delta super i sub j
   and the outer product of the Ricci tensor is proportional to
   g sub i super j ...

and so on.  The obvious sequel to this is that Prof. X hears this at
a conference and comes back to the university where he tells it to a
group of other professors and graduate students.  This time no one
laughs but one of the professors explains:

   You forgot to substitute x sub i for the metric times the
   anti-symmetry component Q sub i,j.

or something equally obscure.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1980 2035-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: JBC

I just noticed an odd thing: The name of the protagonist in Larry
Niven's "Rammer" is Corbett.  I read this story N years ago (it's
in "A Hole in Space" amongst other places), and didn't notice later
when I read "A World Out of Time" (of which Rammer is the first
chapter) that it had changed.  The change is significant; "Jerome
Corbett" becomes "Jerome Branch Corbell." The "Branch" doesn't
appear in Rammer. It's nice to see that Niven deals fairly with
his characters...

[ for those who don't know the reference: James Branch Cabell was
  an early 20th century writer of fantasy whose works are full of
  classical references, some authentic.  I recommend him; expect
  less action and more wit than you find in modern fantasy. ]

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1980 1120-PDT
From: BRITT at USC-ISIB
Subject: Star Wars Radio Production

From the Los Angeles Times, July 17, 1980, part VI, page 8:

  The 13-week "Star Wars" radio series, an unprecedented co-production
by National Public Radio and the BBC, is now in production here and is
scheduled to begin airing early in 1981.
  Mark Hamill will re-create his film character of Luke Skywalker for
the series, as will Anthony Daniels as the urbane, fussbudget robot,
See Threepio.
  Other principals include Perry King (Han Solo), Ann Sachs (Princess
Leia), Bernard Behrens (Ben Kanobi [sic]), Brock Peters (Darth Vader),
John Considine (Tion), Keene Curtis (Tarkin) and Stephen Elliott
(Prestor).
  John Madden will direct the 13-week series, with Richard Toscan, the
executive producer.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Jul 1980 at 2352-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LUKE LOOKALIKES? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Likely to be overlooked in the TESB coverage in the current issue of
US because it's on the contents page, is a photo of Mark Hamill with
wife and baby.  Marilou (sp?) looks enough like Mark here to be his
female clone. If, when SW-3 rolls around, the baby looks as much like
its parents as they appear to resemble each other, he'd be a natural
for "little Luke".

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 16:40 CDT
From: Phil Karn via Csvax.JDD at BERKELEY
Subject: SW 4, 5

As long as everybody is making observations of trivial details in
the sets of SW4 and TESB, I might as well throw in *my* observations.
Maybe you guys aren't hardware types, but I found some of these props
and effects somewhat humorous:

In SW4: One of the control panels of the Death Star's planet zapper
is nothing more than a Grass-Valley Group video switcher console. On
the bottom of an opium(?) pipe in the cantina scene is a coax cable
connector, the PL-259, well known to us ham radio types...

In TESB: The most prominent sound effect in the rebel's command center
is the ASCII time-code from Canada's standard-time station CHU.

And you guys didn't notice these things???

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1980 1042-PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Elisha Cook, Jr's role in Star Trek

I could have sworn the same actor also played in the Jack the Ripper
episode, but maybe not.

/Mike

[ Elisha Cook, Jr. did not appear in the episode "Wolf in the
  Fold", the Jack the Ripper episode written by Robert Bloch.
  The guest stars for that episode were John Fiedler as Hengist,
  Charles Macauley as Jaris, Pilar Seurat as Sybo, Joseph Bernard
  as Tark, Charles Dierkop as Morla, Judy McConnell as Yeoman
  Tankris, Virginia Ladridge as Karen Tracy, Judy Sherven as
  Nurse, and Tania Lemani as Kara. The information is taken
  from THE WORLD of STAR TREK by David Gerrold.  --  RDD  ]

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/18/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
bloopers in the Star Trek episode "Court Martial". People who have not
seen this episode may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 14 July 1980 14:08-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>

With reference to the letter by Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
[ concerning "Courtmartial - SFL V2 #14 ]:

1) Let's assume that the Enterprise's speakers and pickup mikes are
   really that sensitive.  Ok, why can we only hear loud heart-beats.
   We should also be able to hear the breathing of the people on
   board, and Kirk's commands should seem like bellows when amplified
   with a gain of "1 to the fourth power."

2) How come McCoy has to go around with a white-sound device anyway?
   After he blanks out the heartbeats of all present, Kirk asks Spock
   to mask the heartbeat of the single crewman in the transporter
   room.  Why didn't Spock just mask out the entire bridge while he
   was at it?

3) In this episode *only* were we shown a visual log kept
   automatically. [We'll disregard the fact that it had multiple
   camera angles, including one that showed nothing of particular
   interest, but provided a nice angle for knowing which button Kirk
   was pressing] If the Enterprise truly kept such logs, why would
   Kirk be required to keep a "Captain's Log?" When his personal
   motives were important, he could add them to the official log,
   but why would he need to describe what was going on aboard ship
   when it was already being filmed? It seems clear that Roddenberry
   & Co had a momentary lapse when filming this episode.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 JUL 1980 0453-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #19
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 19 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 19

    Today's Topics:        Effects of Special Environments,
                     SF Bloopers - Venus Equilateral & Star Trek, 
                    SF Games - Darkover, SF Books - Humor II, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

JTurner.Coop@MIT-MULTICS 07/11/80 22:02:25

Another thing about isolated groups of intellectuals. Did anyone
see 'Simon'?
                                                     <jmt>

------------------------------

Date: 18 JUL 1980 1218-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: VENUS EQUILATERAL blooper

  The current spate of messages about information transmission brings
to mind a question that has been bothering me for some time.
  Somebody recently mentioned George O. Smith's "Venus Equilateral"
stories. While these are mostly entertaining (especially if you can
think like a 40's ASTOUNDING reader), there is one error permeating
the series that I've never been able to figure out: given the
existence of VE (which is definitely needed if you want to avoid
relays or interruptions), why was it necessary for the characters to
sweat over the development of transmission techniques the effects of
which we take for granted?  Unless I'm seriously misled the current
generation of interplanetary satellites are easily able to communicate
over greater distances and at far higher rates than Smith considered
possible.  Was this just shortsightedness on Smith's part (there have
been many cases of writers underestimating the rate of progress of
technology), or could he have been setting up artificial difficulties
for his characters to solve? I'm under the impression that he was, for
his day, a competent radio hacker (although he obviously didn't have
the general science knowledge a good SF writer \ought/ to have; see
my previous remark about his mistake in basic chemistry/biochemistry
in the last VE story), so I'm curious if anyone on SFLovers who knows
more about radio than I do could supply some explanation of how either
Smith was off-base or I am misreading something either in his stories
or the current space technology.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1980 10:19 PDT
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Courtmartial

On the right armrest of Kirk's command chair were five buttons.  The
bottom two were unlabeled, and the others were marked "yellow alert,"
"red alert," and "jettison pod."  Come on!

	Richard

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1980 1233-EDT
From: FISCHER at RUTGERS
Subject: Unusual games

     ...and here is a parting shot from a friend of mine about a
rather fascinating game called "Darkover: Psychic Conflict in the
Ages of Chaos," which is availible from Eon games:

From: Steven Sherman

     Just a small shout from the lips of a Fantasy reader/game player.
Having played through Eon's Darkover many a non-existant night, I feel
that I would be recalcitrant in not giving it a much deserved "plug" .
     Based on the apparently endless novels by Marion Zimmer Bradley,
the game accurately mirrors the fascinating perplexities which can be
found in such works as "Stormqueen" and "The Spell Sword."
     Be forewarned, however \the most interesting aspect of this game
is in the guise of a 'ghostwind',/ a pregame 'dare' (as it were) in
which you write down an action which can be done by all players when
a fatal Ghostwind chit is solemnly drawn. Examples: "describe oral sex
in detail for 2 minutes"; "Take off all clothes and do 13 pushups";
"sing like Deborah Harry for 1 minute", etc. Note that you always
have the option of voting not to perform and can simply move all
those strategic tokens back to their boring home domain.
     In the novels the 'Ghostwind' was a cloud of hallucinogenic
spores which caused the people of the planet Darkover to lose a
large percentage of their self control.
     It behooves you to perform the Ghostwind if you want to win.
     Note that if you're the shy type you may want to go see TESB 29
more times rather than play this game.
     But, if you have guts, definitely give the 'Darkover' game a try!

P.S. - Any Aridani out there wanna play?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1980 at 0108-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ COMEDIC SF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Assuming that "SF" in this context means "speculative fiction" so
as to include fantasy, my vote for the most (purposely) amusing SF
book is WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF by Christopher Stasheff. It has
splendid puns exploding all over the place like roman candles at a
4th of July fireworks.  Fess, the talking robot horse is priceless.
(The first 2 or 3 times I read the book I had the strangest sensation:
I would "hear" the horse's lines in my head while I was reading them,
and he sounded just like HAL in 2001, but FUNNY.)  There is a sequel,
KING KOBOLD.

On the opposite end of the genre from fantasy, H. Beam Piper's A
PLANET FOR TEXANS (re-issued last year as LONE STAR PLANET) was the
most amusing. You don't HAVE to be a "naturalized" Texan to enjoy it,
but it does enhance one's perception of the aptness of the underlying
satire.

Though knowledgeably-written humorous fantasy is one of my favorite
sub-genres (more about THEM another time), I found very few strictly
science fiction books-with-comedic intent on my shelves.

The only definitely qualifying ones were G.C. Edmondson's THE
ALUMINUM MAN (you'll get a tummy-ache from doubling up with laughter),
and Robert Sheckley's THE TENTH VICTIM which might be funnier in the
movie version.

Dickson's SPACIAL DELIVER (not 'SPATIAL EXPRESS', as Hitchcock had it
in [SFL V2 #17]) is almost as greatly adventurous as it is humorous.
Its sequel is SPACEPAW.  (I don't have them, but a lot of people like
the collection of "Hoka" stories, EARTHMAN'S BURDEN, and a related
novel, STAR PRINCE CHARLIE, by Gordon Dickson and Poul Anderson, which
fit, but "too-cutesy" aliens don't appeal to me.)

Beyond those, the adventure predominates over the comedic intent in--

L. Sprague DeCamp: ROGUE QUEEN. An alien "warrior" from a bee-like
culture has to eat "queen's food" to survive, and develops interest
in ess-ee-ex.

James White: STAR SURGEON and HOSPITAL STATION.  A galactic Dr.
Kildare has the most gosh-awful-wonderful patients. His mosquito-like
colleague, Dr. Prilicla, is my favorite alien.  (Also try White's
MONSTERS AND MEDICS collection.)

Murray Leinster's quiet humor leavens the exploits of the dour heroes
of most of his extensive output.  THE GREKS BRING GIFTS with its wry
commentary on human foibles is great fun and prime adventure.  (I'm a
sucker for a good world-saver.)

Laurence Janifer's duo, KNAVE IN HAND and SURVIVOR, have something
of the same flavor but much more derring do. His collaboration with
Randall Garrett (as Mark Phillips) in the "Malone" series, BRAIN
TWISTER, SUPERMIND, and THE IMPOSSIBLES, is closer to the requisite
comedic intent.  The hero, a try-anything gov't agent, foils Enemies
by relying on the telepathic powers of a little old lady found in a
mental hospital, who claims to be Queen Elizabeth... the FIRST.

Harry Harrison's DEATHWORLD pits the macho hero's mere wits against
the inimical flora and fauna of a world whose colonists have had to
develop super-human reflexes just to survive, and in comparison with
whom, he is no better than a toddler.  (Its sequels DEATHWORLD 2 and
DEATHWORLD 3 don't come off as well so I don't have them.  Likewise
Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" series, romping spoofs of the genre.)

And finally, something that is and/or is not SF... and/or soft-core
porn... AND/OR spy story... Rod Grey's LAID IN THE FUTURE (double
meaning is patently intentional) from the "Lady from L.U.S.T."
series. 

------------------------------

JBARRE@MIT-AI 07/18/80 20:29:00 Re: Luke-alikes

     Several months a go, a local program (dallas) ran some interviews
with the TESB stars.  Mark Hammill said at the time that the producers
were very interested in using his son, because they want to go back to
a time when Luke was about eight years old.  In the interview he said
that he told the producers "No way, one actor in the family is
enough!"  But then, who knows what will happen in seven or eight
years???

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/19/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not seen these
movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1980 (Sunday) 1729-EDT
From: WESTFW at WHARTON (William Westfield)
Subject: TESB: storm troopers and bombing Hoth

1) Stormtroopers are obviously the dregs from the nearest low-culture
   planet, who are impressed into service, who then are fanatically
   devoted, similar to friendly troops in the Dorsai books. (there
   are other similarities between these two works - consider Joda
   an exotic, with the Jedi as Dorsai types with ocassional really
   powerful people like Donal Graehm (Luke or Obi Wan) Darth Vader
   could be William of Ceta, and other similarities)

2) The empire can't bomb the bleep out of Hoth, because I dont think
   either the they or the rebellion have nuclear explosives! I haven't
   seen any, at least.  I am not sure why not, since the death star
   reactor made a lovely bang when it exploded. Maybe missles/bombs
   were given up a long time ago, since there is a good chance they
   would be too slow to use against spacecraft.

Bill W

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 07/11/80 12:02:13 Re: are storm troopers clones?

     Given that we know that Vader is no fool, would he want clones
that were the perfect fighting men? I.e., would he want clones that
could always hit their mark, were bright, resourceful, etc?  Just
possibly such a force of troopers would be too much of a temptation
for mischief.  Whoever controlled such a force would be quite
powerful, and although Vader now controls the storm troopers, the
perfect fighting man would be one who would obey ANY order from
ANY superior (if your willing to believe the military mentality).
     So, might not such a force of troopers be difficult to keep in
one's control?  The senior officer that has been made a fool of by
Vader in front of his men: "I'm not goona take this from him any
longer!", he muttered to himself. .. ..
     Of course, someone will point out that it might be better to make
clones that are more intelligent but that are also loyal to only one
person.  But then what of the military hierarchy of command?  Would
Vader have to give each command himself personally in order to insure
his continued leadership?  No, that is not reasonable.
     Well then, maybe one needs intelligent clones that are capable
of deciding for themselves whether or not a given order is actually
coming from Vader (via a subordinate), or makes sense in and of
itself, etc.  Aah, but then what if such a force decides to start
looking out after their own tails and rebel? Or even worse, such a
soldier might actually have to have a CONSCIENCE!!  IMPOSSIBLE!!
UNTHINKABLE!!
     Therefore, maybe the safest force to control are fairly stupid
clones that are totally expendable and that are not very effective in
small numbers.  Then one only has to make as many of them as one needs
for the moment and control the capability of making them (this assumes
that the clones can somehow be produced fully grown, which is exactly
what one would want).
     After all, the only one thing we CAN be sure of is that Vader
is NO FOOL.  Why else would he want to have a force of imbecilic
incompetents at his disposal?

	Just a thought,
	Greg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 JUL 1980 0718-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #20
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 20 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 20

       Today's Topics: Bibliography Queries and Responses, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 Jul 1980 1155-EDT
From: CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS
Subject: Effects of Special Environments

There are a number of stories that deal with what happens when you
take a group of people and force them to treat problems in new ways.
Does anyone know any of them?  (I vaguely recall having read several
but don't remember the titles).

There are two other kinds of related stories:

   1) stories where something supposedly impossible has been
      'demonstrated' to be possible and some person or people
      are required to duplicate it.
   2) stories where a group of children are raised under totally
      controlled (or so it is believed) conditions completely
      separated from the universe except thru the controlled
      contacts of the experiment (these stories inevitably wind
      up with the experimenters getting a lot more than they
      reckoned on).

Does anyone remember reading any stories like these?  There was one
of type 2 in a fairly recent book called SPACE MAIL (should be of
interest to SF-Lovers, all the stories were written in the form of
letters or diaries or memos).  Also Piers Anthony's book Macroscope
assumed that the main character had come out a group from a type 2
story.  I have read many stories like these but as usual have
forgotten when, where, and by who. Oh well, maybe i'll get a list
of interesting stories out of it.

	Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 20 July 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Responses on Telepathy / Self Ref SF / Gene Eng / MT / ?

Telepathy:
----------

Re-birth by John Wyndham (novel)

  Someone's mention of the telepathic hillbillies by Kornbluth
  reminds me of the short novel by John Wyndham called Re-birth.
  An interesting note is that about 5 lines from this novel were
  lifted verbatim by The Jefferson Airplane and made into a song
  called "Crown of Creation" (without a reference, I might add).
                                    -- Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>


SF Stories referencing SF:
--------------------------

Titan by John Varley (novel)

  In John Varley's Titan, the heroine liked fantasy, she dreamed of
  destroying the Death Star!               -- bill <Mazek at MIT-ML>

  John Varley's 'Titan' is loaded with it. It takes place mid next
  century, see, and they have both a 'classic science fiction' fan
  and an old 'flat movies' fan on the crew, so when they hear about
  the sand-worms in the desert its "gee, just like in 'Dune'", and
  "Maybe this whole thing is a generation ship which has broken
  down, just like in 'Orphans in the Sky'". There is also a
  meta-self-reference (one of Hofstadter's tangled hierarchies)
  involving the wizard of oz...
    Varley does it real well, citing films and books that are well
  on their way to being classics, so that the astronaut-types of the
  21st century WOULD know about those things, and it would be funny,
  in fact, if they failed to make the connection...
                                  --  David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>


Genetic Engineering Applications:
---------------------------------

The Warriors of Dawn by M. A. Foster (novel)

  Back in the twentieth century, scientists had been fooling with
  people's genes in order to come up with some super-people who could
  then breed with regular people and improve the race.  Unfortunately,
  the first stable race that came out of these experiments turned out
  to be a different species, so the cross-breeding idea didn't work
  out.  These new people (ler) went off and formed a culture of their
  own.  This story involves a human male and a ler female getting to
  know each other as they chase baddies across the galaxy.
                                    --  Terry <ROBERTS at PARC-MAXC2>

To Live Forever by Jack Vance (novel)

  A couple of people have mentioned Varleys' stories for immortality
  by cloning.  An earlier example of this is Jack Vance's To Live
  Forever, which also covers social problems of this.
                                    -- Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>


Teleportation:  [ short bibliography from Chip <Hitchcock at CCA> ]
--------------

Stories suggesting the actual transportation of the object:

ALL THE COLORS OF DARKNESS by Lloyd Biggle

  also suggests that self-transmission (which is the key to FTL
  spaceships) is a stage in MT development.  First of the five
  (so far) Jan Darzek stories; recommended.

THE WITLING by Vernor Vinge

  Takes Niven's ideas concerning the conservation of various momenta
  and looks at how maps could be drawn to allow for this in a race of
  natural teleports.  Otherwise dull.

Scanning theory:

THE TOWER OF GLASS by Robert Silverberg

  specifically mentions the protagonist brooding over the fact
  that he's being torn down and reconstituted -- which should
  be inconceivable agony, except that it happens too fast.

Mixture:

THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN by Alan Nourse

  Researchers think they are scanning something, memorizing it,
  breaking it down to atoms, shipping the atoms, and reconstituting
  them -- but they're going through another universe to do this and
  destroying it in the process.  Finally, people are simply carried
  instantaneously through the other universe -- which, being
  extradimensional, allows them to go anywhere in no time at all.
  Worthwhile, even though sometimes cataloged as a juvenile.

THE COMPLETE VENUS EQUILATERAL by George O. Smith (collection)

  This collection also has one actual-object-transmission story
  (the last one, written for THE ASTOUNDING MEMORIAL ANTHOLOGY),
  which would be better if Smith didn't blow basic biochemistry.


The almost forgotten stories:
-----------------------------

The computer utopia story [ see SFL V2 #6,9 ]:

  Perhaps the story you are looking for is "The Machine Stops"?
  I leave it as an exercise to the audience to come up with the
  author...                        --  <York.Multics at MIT-Multics>


Computers rebuilding a man from cell plans story [ see SFL V1 #165 ]:

  The story referenced about computers rebuilding a man from cell
  plans may be a Zelazny story called something like "For breath
  While I Tarry". I am very hazy about this tho. I remember the
  story and I think it was Zelazny.  --  Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

  Someone asked about a story with computers re building people based
  on cell plans(?), which sounds a lot like The City and the Stars by
  Arthur C. Clarke.                  -- Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>


And once more for good measure:
-------------------------------

  The correct title for the Dickson novel which [SFL V2 #17]
  referred to as "SPATIAL EXPRESS" and [SFL V2 #19] referred to
  as "SPACIAL DELIVER" is in fact "SPACIAL DELIVERY" as HJJH has
  pointed out. The typo was accidentally introduced during digest
  preparation.                                            --  RDD


------------------------------

Date:  18 July 1980 13:01 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Remake of SW IV

While idly browsing through a magazine (whose title escapes me)
devoted to amateur special effects (especially starships and
explosions) I saw a letter from one of the readers who is
attempting to make his/her OWN version of SW IV!.  Included was
a film clip, showing a white-robed "Luke" kneeling down to talk
to some sand-people.  Also shown were C3-P0 and R2-D2 models.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/20/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 17 July 1980 03:35-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: TESB DARTH (DADDY) VADER

Here is a suggestion a friend made regarding DV being Luke's father...
What if DV is really Luke's father and he is trying to destroy the
empire from within. He would have to prove himself by displaying the
evil side of the force. Perhaps if he can get Luke on his side they
can bring order to the EMPIRE and depose the emperor. The problem I
have with that is that I find it hard to believe he would be so
obsessed with getting Luke (especially cutting one's son's hand
off). Oh well, it isn't my idea. Perhaps DV is the "other" hope?

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1980 13:14-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Cat and mouse

It appeared to me that Vader only started using both hands when
he realized that simply taunting Luke wasn't going to work. To me,
anyway, it seemed that Vader's "game" was to bring out the anger
in Luke.  He said "Release your \anger/...only your \hatred/ will
destroy me." [Remember what Ben said as Luke left: "Luke...don't
give in to hate"] It seemed as if he was just showing off to Luke
just how powerful he was when he gestured with one hand ["You have
learned much"] while still defending himself.  It was only when he
realized that a much better way to release Luke's anger was to
attack, that he started using both hands. He definitely began
using two hands before Luke hit him, tho. Remember, after Vader
falls backwards off the platform [a cunning ploy], how Luke
cautiously walks down a dimly lit corridor [aren't they all?] and
Vader suddenly jumps out from behind something-or-other and barely
misses Luke?  He then starts attacking Luke furiously, with both
hands, pushing him back.  The last step in releasing Luke's anger
was to cut off his hand, but even that didn't seem to work [unless,
of course, he isn't Luke's father].

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1980 10:30 PDT
From: Klose.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: TESB in another Time/Space

I'm suprised nobody has discussed the significance of Luke's
disappearance (or "dream sequence") which occured to him during
the climactic battle against DV. There certainly must be some
explanation of this "temporary transportation" to Tattooine to
talk with his father. As I recall, the dialog went something like
this:

   LUKE:   (suprised) I'm home!
   FATHER: Yes, son. You are home. Come forward, my son.
   LUKE:   Father! Is it really you?
   FATHER: Luke, listen to me. You have a destiny. Follow that path,
           but be aware of the FORCE, Luke.  Beware the FORCE.
           (he fades)
   LUKE:   Father!

Is this man (standing in the shadows of his childhood home) a ghost
of Luke's real father? Maybe his real father is still alive and Jedi
have the power to teleport objects momentarily to great distances?
The man never answers the question Luke asks, so this leads me to
believe that he is not Luke's real father.  I think it was a mental
trick played on Luke by DV as part of a scheme to weaken Luke and
to get him to join DV.

What's wrong with all you SF-LOVERS?  Were you all asleep during this
crucial scene?

A few other comments:

I seem to remember there being a female in the room with DV when we
see the back of his head.

I think that the underwater backgrounds for Araton, the underwater
(underswamp?) city, looked somewhat fake.  I was, however, quite
impressed with the light sabre assembly line.  It looked very
realistic.

The most startling scene has to be when Chewie catches on fire.
That had me at the edge of my seat.

After Luke fell off his taun-taun at the Hoth rodeo, Leia gave
Luke much more attention than Han, even though Han was the winner
in taun-taun roping.  I thought this scene was most humorous.

If it jams, FORCE it!

- Paul

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 JUL 1980 0434-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #21
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 21 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 21

 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Reality factors, SF Bloopers - VE & ST,
                 SF Books - O'Donnell & Brunner & Bester & Timebank,
                 TESB - Lucas Hallmark & Luke's Gender & Alternities
----------------------------------------------------------------------

MARG@MIT-AI 07/19/80 02:14:18 Re: 2001 revisited...(ramblings)...

I just did, for the doubledigit'th time, and I decided that, tech
flaws and all, it is NOT a movie, it is a DOCUMENTARY.

The qualities that make 2001 "real" for me seem to be the same ones
that make some folks bored (yes, there really are some) - time to
think, slow pace, quiet. So far I am the only person I know who liked
the movie SOLARIS, and I liked it specifically because with all of its
implausibility I found myself able to empathize with the first contact
situation. It simply gave me time to think and fantasize around the
obvious questions - What would this really feel like? What would I
really do?

This particularly affecting sense of being there, especially poignant
for me in alien contact situations, usually appears after the fact (of
reading) in written works, not during my initial reading.  It rarely
happens at all in visual works, because they are usually cluttered,
wrong, absurd technically ... you name it.  Thinking it over tonite,
then, SOLARIS and 2001 are the ones that had this effect in real-time,
and yet they seem to be maximally capable of boring other people.  Am
I so strange? In what, if anything, do other SF-LOVERS find themselves
actively, personally involved in alternate worlds?  What about
differences between written and seen works?  Finally, did anyone else
like SOLARIS (movie) for any reason?

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 07/19/80 09:47:18 Re:  1940's radio technology.

In the 1940's, the KNOWN radio spectrum was pretty well limited to the
chunk below 200 Mhz.  At the time, the magnetron was stil top secret
and microwaves were a pipe dream. The concepts of pulse-coded signals
were known mathematically, but practical uses had not been determined.
On the basis of these facts, practical bandwidths were on the order
of 10's of Khz, not the Ghz bandwidths we are familiar with today
(remember there were no such things as electronic digital computers
then so they had no need to send digital data).

					Brian

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1980 00:50 PDT
From: LStewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Communications stuff

About communicating over interplanetary distances.

I think George O. Smith was pretty accurate with his radio information
for his day (late 1940s). One of his stories mentions 'bouncing radar
off the moon' which was done at 400 MHz by the Signal Corps in 1946
(Project Diana). They used umpteen kilowatts but by the the late '60s
and in the '70s, hams were communicating via moonbounce with one
kilowatt. How? Two reasons: higher frequencies/high gain antennas and
better low-noise amplifiers for the receiver.  Smith had to work with
tubes, which are pretty noisy; I think the parametric amplifier (magic
with non-linear capacitors) and the maser amplifier were invented in
the fifties.  Smith's stuff about penetrating the ionosphere was bunk
though - of course no one had yet been above it!

I recall an article about interplanetary communications engineering
in the IEEE Communications Society magazine.  The data rates from the
first Mariner spacecraft were about nine bits per second.  These days,
spacecraft like the Voyagers can run at 10 to 50 kilobits from Jupiter
distances - but it takes a 200 foot receiver dish and a cryogenically
cooled receiver amplifier.  Getting 90 megabits (TV) from a satellite
only 40,000 klicks out is child's play.  Remember, the received signal
runs as the inverse square of the distance.

	-Larry

------------------------------

Date:  19 July 1980 23:22 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Brodie MAXC's Star Trek 'Court Martial' Blooper

Brodie complains that the arm of Kirk's chair contains only five
buttons, two unlabelled, one each for red and yellow alert, and
one to jettison the pod.  Brodie must think that the labels are
too specific, but I say that (given that Kirk pushes buttons
instead of speaking, which he clearly could do, since the
Enterprise computer can recognize voices) the button labels are
dynamic. There are several such technologies used today, so that
the options presented to you are only the reasonable ones.  Most
times there would not even be a pod to jettison, but when a storm
is coming up, the Enterprise knows that jettison is a likely choice,
as is red and yellow alert, so these are the options on his chair.

Now we could all envision better command and control systems than
that. Notice though, that it makes sense to offer Kirk only maximum
of five choices, since this fits within 7 plus or minus 2.

Well, are there any would-be star-ship control designers out there?
Anybody want to survey the various types of star-ship controls in
the literature?

------------------------------

Date: 14 July 1980 23:51-EDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <AQE at MIT-MC>
Subject: Request for material by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr.

I am looking for any information about this man and his writing.
So far I have found only three items by him:

 - "Three Aliens", a novelet in Destinies V1 #5 (Oct-Dec 79);
 - "Judo and the Art of Self-Government", a short story in
   Destinies V2 #1 (Feb-Mar 80);
 - "Mayflies", a novel, published by Berkley, 1979.

All three are very good, but the best part is that this guy really
understands computers and computer networks and their effects on
their users.

If anyone knows of any other stories by Mr. O'Donnell, or even
any personal data about him (i.e. who is he?) please send me the
information. If I get anything interesting, I will forward it to
the list.
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1980 1718-PDT
From: Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: The Shockwave Rider

I just finished reading John Brunner's, *The Shockwave Rider*.  I
found it to be excellent entertainment. It is particularly relevant
for those of use who work with computers and the ARPAnet. We are the
midwives at the birth of a new technology which will affect society
as profoundly as nuclear energy and space travel.  It is important
that information processing technology not be misused like nuclear
power, until many people advocate its removal from our society or
allowed to wither from neglect as space travel has.  The countless
delays in launching the Space Shuttle are the most visible sign of
our declining interest in space travel.

I keep thinking that Precipice is actually Santa Cruz, CA.  Just
look at a map of California. But no, it couldn't be. Precipice was
describe as flat, built on alluvial soil. Santa Cruz is surrounded
by mountains.

I also want to mention that I read this novel, plus Bester's *The
Demolished Man* because of discussions in the SF digest.  Please,
if you read a novel or story collection which is commendable, let
other know about it.

Robert

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 07/17/80 09:18:40

The story about using time as currency [ SFL V1 #174, V2 #17 ] is
entitled "Time Bank" or "The Timebank" (not sure which).

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/21/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  15 July 1980 20:26 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Arms and the Like

So Lucas has discovered that he can maximize profits by cutting
arms off.  The secret with Travolta is to have him hold his left
arm up behind his head as in Saturday Night Fever and Urban Cowboy.
I wonder if this can be described as a "hallmark"?

------------------------------

Date: 17 JUL 1980 1132-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Luke's gender

  There has been a fair amount of discussion grown out of the
suggestion (which from this distance I haven't been able to
track down) of one of the contributors to SF-Lovers that Luke
was originally supposed to be female. I am curious as to whether
any of the people who support this idea have any other evidence
than the McQuarrie sketch in THE ART OF STAR WARS, which sketch
I suspect to have been incorrectly captioned in the book.
  For those who haven't seen the piece in question, it shows a
fairly tall man with a short full beard, holding a light-saber
(not well drawn in, but the handle is obvious and there is a
line or two to suggest the "blade"); a few lines by his left side
suggest a knee-length flaring cloak.  Someone is sprawled at his
feet, leaning on the left elbow and pointing one of the SW-standard
sidearms; the body is more female than male, but the costume includes
a rather emphatic codpiece and the face is thoroughly androgynous.
Looking at other McQuarrie sketches said to be of Leia, I'd say the
person is intended to be female --- which suggests that in fact the
sketch should have been captioned "Luke and Leia".  Certainly there
are discrepancies between this and any of the conceptions which have
been discussed; however, I'm inclined to this view by other published
material which has indicated that Lucas intended Luke as his own
surrogate -- Lucas was "the kid" among filmmakers for quite a while,
apparently, and it has been claimed that Lucas occasionally misspoke
himself and referred to Mark Hamill on the set by the nickname Lucas
had been given when he came to Hollywood.
  Not conclusive, certainly, but I'd like to know what other evidence
people have come across for the Luke-as-female theory.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1980 12:34:55 EDT
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: re: TESB in alternate universes

I thought it was a stroke of genius casting Humphrey Bogart as Han Solo,
even though he looked uncomfortable without a cigarette drooping from his
mouth.

Lauren Bacall as Princess Leia was nice, too.

------------------------------

Date: 20 JUL 1980 1433-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "?"

  It looks like the dark side of the Force of our recent discussion
of SF humor got the better of you [ Klose.ES ]--or else you've found
an unusually effective brand of hash.

------------------------------

ZRM@MIT-MC 07/20/80 15:52:18 Re: American Grafitti strikes again?

I formally introduce the motion to chain Klose.ES to a keypunch
machine and drop him into a trash chute in Bespin.

					--zig

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 JUL 1980 0409-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #22
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 22 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:  SF Movies - Reality Factors, SF Bloopers - ST & VE,
                TESB- Sales & Luke's Gender & SW/Muppets & Alternities
----------------------------------------------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 07/21/80 05:39:20 Re: 2001

I have seen 2001 many times and have never been bored at any point
in the movie.  I think the reason is that I just enjoy seeing that
world, even if nothing is happening in it.  For example, remember
the scene in the space station, just after Floyd has arrived, during
which he has a brief conversation with some fellow scientists in which
essentially no information gets transferred (except that the audience
finds out that Floyd's mission is secret)?  This scene is typical
of what the critics complained about: the human charcters are very
two-dimensional and say boring things. But look at that background,
with the floor curving away and the Howard Johnson (or something)
signs -- it is all very believable. A lot of the lack of action is
made up for by the stunning cinematography, especially in the Dawn
of Man part.  Maybe it really is the slow pacing that makes it so
easy to get into enjoying just watching what is going by.  (I am
told almost universally that this same sort of thing is what makes
Barry Lyndon a loser, though. I haven't seen it, but I suspect *that*
world is one in which I have much less interest in immersing myself.)

I've never seen Solaris, though.

------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1980 20:32-EDT
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject:  SOLARIS

I didn't find SOLARIS boring, however I wasn't able to fully enjoy it
because of its throughly terrible technical aspects.  I don't mean the
SF technical aspects, I mean the movie was simply badly made.  Every
time I would start getting into the movie and really thinking about
it, I would get distracted by not being able to help noticing how the
camera moved abruptly from face to face as each face spoke its lines.
Or a guy stands by a window and suddenly a bucket of water is poured
out outside the window as he says "looks like it's raining" or some
such.  Totally amateurish.  What a waste of a good book.
     I do agree with MARG@AI in that I felt they took the right basic
approach.  They took a "thinking" book and made a "thinking" movie -
they didn't try to spice it up or speed it up or `up' anything.  Now
if they only found a decent director and some decent actors.....

(I am referring to the Russian movie SOLARIS, the one that gets shown
 around MIT from time to time. If there is some other version, I sure
 would like to know about it!)

------------------------------

DR@MIT-MC 07/21/80 15:31:30
Re: Star Trek bloopers (the court-martial episode)

The thing I don't seem to understand about the whole discussion
of this episode, i.e. "bloopers" such as having buttons on Kirk's
armchair labeled, log taking pictures from different angles, a
question of need for captain's log when you have this picture-taking
facility, need for McCoy to walk around with this white thing shutting
off people's heart beats while Spock does it through a computer (for
the crewman not present on the bridge), etc, etc, etc, is why do you
all people fail to understand the necessity for movie theatrics? There
is such a concept in movie production as "a dramatizing effect" and
some of you should become familiar with this concept.  I am surprised
no one brought up the fact that the log camera all of a sudden zooms
in on Kirk's hand right before he jettisons the pod!  Clearly most
of the stuff you people are complaining about were put in for sheer
dramatic effect!!! Without them Star Trek would never have been as
good as it is!

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1980 (Monday) 0851-PST
From: HIRGELT at LLL-MFE
Subject: Enterprise Control Console

From: Ed Hirgelt

Regarding Kirk's console controls:

My complaint with the layout is not the number of buttons, but the
proximity of the two "alert" buttons and the jettison pod button. It
seems like lousy human engineering to me. Why put a command that could
cost a life near buttons that are essentially warning in nature? The
probability that yellow or red alert would occur is relatively high.
Placing the jettison button there is asking for an error. Humans are
fallible afterall.  Oh, I know the real reason, no story line.

Ed

------------------------------

Date: 21 JUL 1980 1314-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: George O. Smith (2nd go-round)
In-Reply-To: Brian Lloyd's and Larry Stewart's msgs on
              1940's radio technology [ SFL V2 #21 ]

  It looks like what both of you are saying is that Smith was
accurately describing his contemporary technology transplanted,
unchanged, some number of centuries into the future --- which I
would consider to be a major failing on the part of a science
fiction writer; to assume that a technology will simply stand
still, especially when he'd seen the advances that had taken place
in his own lifetime, is simply foolish. Obviously he couldn't predict
which direction technology would develop in --- the transistor was
a quantum leap in electronics design, especially for someone as mired
in practicalities as Smith was --- so it looks like he decided to set
up a future about which he could talk knowledgeably in 40's terms
rather than simply saying "this will have happened" and leaving it
at that to concentrate on the rest of the story.  I suppose that's
reasonable, given that the stories were written to an audience that
liked highly technical discussions of the solution of technical
problems, but from current perspective it badly dates not just the
stories but the style and the (sub)genre.
  I have one cavil with the explanations given, however; digital
information was the first to be transmitted over radio (i.e., Morse
code), and in fact Smith does describe the VE system as involving
digitalized transmission. I think I take your intended meaning: that
because digital computers were virtually nonexistent (likewise TV)
the average electronicist would have little reason to think in terms
of the order of data transmission rates we consider routine today,
provided he was (as Smith apparently was) not all that interested
in anything that wasn't right in front of him.

  It's interesting that this also shows up in some of Smith's other
works.  In THE FOURTH "R" (aka THE BRAIN MACHINE, or some such awful
title), he edges toward the typical technician's mistake of assuming
that intelligence is easily quantifiable --- potentially even
measurable in terms of current knowledge (which is all that a lot of
the current standardized tests can do).  He acknowledges in passing
that the boy-hero has little or no judgment but shows him surviving
in situations where judgment --- and its parallel attribute, the
ability to synthesize conclusions from data --- is required. Take
for example the first scene, in which it is stated that he is an
accomplished bridge player at the age of ~6.  Bridge is like chess,
in that attempting to memorize and grade all possible situations
is not the way the masters do it and probably not strictly the way
winning computers will succeed in it; patterns must be recognized and
probabilities calculated (especially in bridge, which has subtleties
such as deliberately playing the "wrong" card in order to confuse
the opponents or reduce their chances of regaining control) to apply
current knowledge to new situations (doesn't this sound more like a
better definition of genius than being a walking encyclopedia?).
  I suppose all this may be taking Smith a good deal too seriously;
I've never seen anything suggesting that most of his stories were
intended as more than light entertainment. But "pure" entertainment
is especially likely to reflect the prejudices and unquestioned
assumptions of its audience (if it doesn't it will be disturbing,
which isn't entertaining to most people), and even if the average
ASTOUNDING reader didn't share Claude Degler's beliefs in SF fans
as \the/ future rulers, there's evidence in many of the most popular
stories of that period of the contempt of the self-defined superior
types for their alleged inferiors (consider the remark in HAVE
SPACESUIT, WILL TRAVEL that anyone who can't use a sliderule is an
illiterate who shouldn't be allowed to vote, or another ASTOUNDING
story (by Smith but never reprinted as far as I can find) in which
literacy itself is a profession, accepted as necessary but considered
by the public to be undesirable in anyone not a member of the guild
(come to think of it, the social situation is similar to that of the
espers in THE DEMOLISHED MAN, except that Smith is taking a didactic
position rather than standing open to argument).

  I know I've got some arguable positions here; I'll be interested
to see what anyone comes up with in the line of corroboration or
opposition.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/22/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 07/21/80 0937-EDT
From: FOCUS at LL
Subject: TESB

Does anyone out there know current sales figures for TESB?

------------------------------

Date: 21 JUL 1980 1302-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: oops!

  In my discussion of Luke's gender I neglected to mention that the
picture in question is captioned "Han and Luke".

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1980 2030-PDT
From: Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Muppet show with our friends from SW/TESB

I saw the Star Wars/Muppet show tonight.  It was a fine show.  The
opening scene has Luke and C3P0 stumbling warily onto the set of the
show.  Luke says, "We seem to have landed on some comedy-variety show
planet."  Two questions:

  1) The show featured appearances from Luke, Chewbacca, R2D2 and
     C3P0, who did a rather attractive dance routine (considering
     his restrictive costume). Were the characters who played these
     roles in the movies also on the show?
  2) Does Mark Hammill have a cousin who looks just like him?  Or
     was this a cute electronic trick?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 at 0056-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHO WAS ON THE SW/MUPPET SHOW ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In re Lasater at SUMEX-AIM's query about who was really on the
Star Wars/Muppet show, unfortunately I've missed that every time it's
played here.  I'd presume that Peter Mayhew was indeed in the Wookiee
suit, but that Kenny Baker was not in the R2 unit.  Hamill was surely
Luke and the lookalike, and I know Tony was Threep. To be on the safe
side, I'll have this all verified by My Friend The Ultimate SW Fan,
hopefully via LARKE at MIT-ML.

------------------------------

Date:  21 July 1980 21:39 edt
From:  SALawrence at MIT-Multics (STEVE at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Re: TESB in another space-time

What space time was this other TESB viewed in, pray tell?  Certainly
not the one I saw it in; the version in Boston didn't have any of the
referred to scenes in it.

Light saber assembly line, indeed. For the use of the remaining 1 jedi
knight, no doubt. If we assume Luke is a jedi.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1980 at 1323-CDT
From: clyde at UTEXAS
Subject: reality effects & TESB

     Come, come, now boys!  Klose is only having a little fun with
you.  Being a heretic can be fun, especially when the believers are
SO serious about the whole thing.
     BTW -- if that was hash, where did you ..... (never mind).

	-Clyde Hoover

P.S. I did like the anti-gravity assembly area in the light saber
     factory.  But how did they generate those quantum black holes,
     much less package them into batteries?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 JUL 1980 0423-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #23
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 23 July 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:       SF Movies - The Works & Reality Factors,
                SF Bloopers - ST & VE, SF Books - Roadmarks & Comedy,
                         TESB - Lucas Numbers & Alternities
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1980 1521-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject: THE WORKS

Saw the promo for \THE WORKS/ (Feature-length Sci-Fi Computer
Animation effort from N.Y.I.T.) at the SIGGRAPH Conference in Seattle.
Has anyone heard about it??  Does anyone know the expected date of
release??  The effects were absolutely dazzling.  Hopefully, though,
more attention will be paid to making the motion of natural forms
look smooth and realistic than was evident in the promo.

------------------------------

BATALI@MIT-AI 07/21/80 12:29:19 Re: First-contact

Let me list four first-contact films for comparison:
  2001; Alien; Solaris; Close Encounters.  (Is anyone snickering yet?)

     I will humbly refer to two of them as the "good" ones and the
other two as the "others".  A fundamental difference between the
two groups is the nature of the aliens. In the others, the aliens are
pretty conventional, predictable **understandable**. The popular idea
of aliens is conformed to nicely by little white creatures with big
heads (for the optimists) or ugly toothy slobbery disgustingly rude
creatures (for the pessimists).
     The good films have aliens that are much more confusing. Their
power is huge but somewhat removed from human interests. (It's not
clear if they want to eat us or study us or mate with us or what)
They certainly satisfy no preconceived notion and even the path (if
any) towards understanding them seems nonexistent. They seem, in a
word: alien.
     This is the reason both for why the good films appeal to me, and
why they would not to those who expect to have films that require no
thinking. (Actually, I'm not being fair. It is perfectly reasonable
to be turned off by an incomprehensible movie -- but it's nice to
find one where the effort at comprehension pays off)
     As has been discussed here before, aliens will indeed be alien
to us. The real value in first contact movies is to illustrate human
nature by placing it in contact with the unknowable.  Kubrick seems
to make his living doing this.
     The alien in Solaris was very troubling to the crewmen and to
the audience.  Did it dislike them or was it just confused about
what humans wanted? Or... The brooding quality of the film emphasized
nicely (to humans at least) the discomfort of a first impression that
is less than pleasant.  The alien kept throwing memories and thoughts
at the humans that they didn't want to think. Certainly not nice. But
if hostility was present why didn't they die instantly, or did it
understand humans so well that it knew how best to make them suffer?
And why would it possibly care?
     I could go on. The film is worth seeing for the questions it
raises -- the same sort of questions that a real alien encounter
would.

btw: Whether documentary, animal film, religious picture, snuff flick,
     drug movie, cartoon or whatever, 2001 is my number-one favorite
     and I'll see it and discuss it forever. What tech errors?  

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 09:27 PDT
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Star Trek bloopers (the court-martial episode)

While I am glad you have familiarized us with the concept of a
"dramatizing effect," and while the farthest thing from my mind is
to contribute to the disillusionment of True Believers in anything,
I must say that the effects you mentioned did little to induce a
sense of drama in me. Instead, they detracted from my suspension of
disbelief. It's difficult to keep your S. of D. going when you burst
out laughing.

Seriously, you must agree that certain other Trek episodes were more
believable than "Courtmartial."

        Richard Brodie

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/11/80 02:29:42 Re:  Starship controls

There seems to be an erroneous idea (at least I think is is erroneous)
that technologically advanced "things" have lots of lights, buttons,
and switches.  We often joke that you can tell how "smart" a computer
is on TV by how many flashing lights and tape drives it has.  I
sincerely hope that the converse is true.

If you look at the capability of todays most complex conveyance,
the jet fighter, the trend is toward building intelligence into the
avionics. Also, targeting and weapon selection is becoming automatic.
The weapons control system on the F-16 is far advanced of the X-wing
fighter.  Take for example the "targeting computer" (SW episode IV,
attack on the Death Star); the pilot had to position a special
display in front of his face.  In modern fighters the sight reticle
and targeting information appears parallax free, located at infinity
(so refocusing of the eye isn't necessary).  Some weapons systems
TODAY are so advanced that all the pilot has to do is arm the system
and LOOK at his target to aim and fire.  I expect that we will see
even greater improvements by the time starships roll around.

If I had to specify the controls of a starship now, I think there
would be NO buttons or knobs at all.  All control inputs would be
by voice or thought.  Information to the pilot would be presented
on an "as needed" basis on a single, multiplexed display (maybe even
directly impressed on the visual and aural centers of the brain). Of
course, the ship itself would be artificially intelligent, requiring
a minimum of input from the pilot.

                                        Brian

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 at 2359-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A KIND WORD FOR GEORGE O. SMITH ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One often comes across reverent and/or glowing references to "Golden
Age" SF (whose vintage varies with the age of the speaker). Every once
in a while I succumb and give it a try.  But even tho I approach them
with more of "an open mind" than contemporary books, so very rarely do
I enjoy any from before the 1950's, that the fact that Smith's VENUS
EQUILATERAL is such a rarity may indicate that for a technologically
naive reader his storytelling skill compensates to some degree for his
lack of speculative endeavor.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1980 1109-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "Roadmarks"

Roger Zelazny's recent novel "Roadmarks" is a worthless retread of
"Nine Princes in Amber".  Here again we have a Road of Mystery that
only a few can travel.  This time it leads forward and backward in
time rather than to alternate universes. We have a hero who longs to
return to a place that he cannot remember, and we have random people
trying to kill him.  The difference is that "Nine Princes In Amber"
did eventually supply motives and answers to its characters and
"Roadmarks" does not.  No reason is ever given for the hero's old
friend to try to kill him or to stop trying to kill him once they
meet up.  No explanation is ever given of what the hero is doing
trundling up and down the Road, and even he doesn't seem to know.
At first you think that he's trying to recreate the circumstances
that lead to America, since he dresses like a truck driver and keeps
trying to smuggle guns to the Greeks so they can win at Marathon, but
later you find that the Road runs right past Cleveland.  Sure, maybe
he'll tie it all together in a later book, but that's no excuse for
making the first installment as incomplete as this.  I also thought
that "The Changeling", his last book, was a skimpy piece of work
(though it didn't help that it was only a novella padded out with
illustrations), so maybe Zelazny's mind just isn't in it any more.

------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: More Responses on SF Comedy & Parody

SF Comedy & Parody:
-------------------

THE DRAGON AND THE GEORGE by Gordon R. Dickson (novel)

  A man and his girlfriend get transported accidentally to a land in
  the middle ages, complete with dragons and magic. Unfortunately, he
  finds himself in the body of a dragon named Gorbash, while she is
  still human.                             -- Bruce <Israel at MIT-AI>

  Don't forget Gordon Dickson's, "The Dragon and The George". A little
  teleportation, a bit of sword and sorcery, a lot of magic, sprinkled
  with nobility, a Quest, and very human (not to mention draconic!)
  lusts. Be sure that your credit with the Auditing Department is good
  before you enter, else the balance between Chance and History may go
  awry.  The Dark Powers love things like that.
                              --  Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>


BILL, THE GALACTIC HERO by Harry Harrison (novel)

  Although it has been mentioned in regard to the Bloater Drive,
  'Bill, the Galactic Hero' by Harrison has to go down on the list
  of classic SF humor.                       --  <Romine at SDAC-Unix>


STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS by Harry Harrison (novel)

  This is perhaps the funniest SF novel I have read. It is a spoof of
  the E.E."Doc" Smith "Lensmen" and "Skylark" series.
                                      -- Brian Lloyd <LLOYD at MIT-AI>

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/23/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1980 15:27-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Lucas and his numbers

In response to ables at UTEXAS's query about the overuse of the
numbers 1138 and 327, I have another. Remember [SW4] how Luke and
Han overpower a guard and then use his uniform to gain entry into
the command center? Well, the command center's supervisor (?) says
"TK-421 ... do you copy?"  and Luke shakes his head.  Well, in the
book, this guard's number was THX-1138!

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 0225-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Hardware Wars and THX

I was just re-watching a tape of HARDWARE WARS, the classic SW satire,
and noticed something I had missed every other time I saw it.

In the scene where they are about to go to "light speed", we see an
old car speedometer "zoom up".  The cute part is that the odometer
reads: 1138.  Not bad!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1980 04:32-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  TESB in other dimensions

I'm surprised none of you have mentioned the climactic scene on Bespin
where Vader insures that Luke is the last of the Jedi by cutting off,
not his hand, but.... [ouch!] [Never fear, those medi-droids can fix
anything]

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 07/22/80 13:23:55
Re:  quantum black holes and light sabers

Hey! My light saber was made in that factory too, and when I opened it
up to look for the quantum black hole, I didn't find a damned thing.
Where'd it go?

        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 at 0918-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS
Subject: Klose.ES's alternate SW

Well, you know what they say . . . That's the way the Wookiee
grumbles! (sorry about that, I didn't make it up).    -ka

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 JUL 1980 0548-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #24
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 24 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 24

 Today's Topics: Today's Date, SF Books - MT & Plot/Title, SF Movies -
                   Works & Reality Factors, Physics Imaginary - FTL,
                     Starships - Control Design, SF Bloopers - ST
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1980 1300-PDT
From: Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: 24-JUL-1980

July 24, 1980 is Julian date 2444444.  Six consecutive identical
digits in the Julian date happens only once every 304 years.

------------------------------

Date: 24 July 1980  02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: More stories involving MT

Matter Transmission:
--------------------

Web of Everywhere by John Brunner (novel)

  "Web of Everywhere" is a short novel by John Brunner about the
  potential sociological implications of MT.  Everyone has an
  "address" on the system.  You get delivered into the home of
  whom-ever you dialed in.  Protecting ones "address" is critical
  due to the ability of muggers, thieves and other unsavory types.
  There is more to the story than this, of course, but it paints
  the dimmer view of low cost, universally accessible MT.  Its
  shorter than most of Brunners works at about half the length of
  ShockWave Rider (for what thats worth).  -- Ed <HIRGELT at LLL-MFE>


And the almost forgotten stories:
---------------------------------

  A few years ago there were some stories in (I think) Galaxy that
  dealt with matter transmitters that transmitted by scanning and
  duplicating, actually this was background to the story. At any
  rate they wound up with a lot of copies of people wandering around
  in different parts of the universe. Each copy chose a new middle
  name so that they could be distinguished by name. James Blish also
  dealt with the question briefly in "Spock Must Die".
                                  -- Steve Z. <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 07/23/80 07:48:42 Re: MT addendum / query

For the first time in a month I've caught up with all the digests.
Maybe now I'll get a chance to contribute something without missing
the boat completely; anyway, perhaps the MT ferry is still close
enough to jump.

Throughout the MT discussion I was expecting someone to mention a
certain story that I always think of whenever the topic comes up.
Unfortunately I cannot recall either the title or the author(s)
-- I'm hoping that someone else will remember and vanquish this
particular tip-of-tongue annoyance.

It was novel-length, I believe serialized in one of the magazines
like Galaxy about 6-7 years ago.  The setup is that there's this
interstellar civilization wherein citizens communicate via tachyon
beams; they have tachyon transmitters wherein an object can be
scanned and the necessary information transmitted to some location
several parsecs distant where a duplicate is constructed.  This
isn't done lightly and there are some interesting rules governing
the transmission of intelligent entities, since the process results
in the existence of (e.g.) two people with exactly the same memories
and thoughts, who begin diverging immediately.

There is no FTL travel, and galactic exploration is done by sublight
robot probes which carry tachyon matter receivers.  The story opens
as one of these probes detects a very strange object that, although
enormously huge, is neither a planet nor a sun and in fact is somewhat
ellipsoid (although my memory may be wrong here).  It is decided to
investigate, so the tachyon receiver on the probe is activated and
various materials & beings (the civilization is fairly cosmopolitan)
are pushed through to construct an observation platform. As an example
of how MT duplication figures in the plot, everyone in the "first
wave" is a volunteer who knows that they are doomed (owing to the
hard radiation generated by probe/station deceleration).  They
volunteer with some trepidation, wondering which fate awaits them in
the transmitter chamber: to remain where they are ("whew!"), or to
step out into the probe ("oh shit!")? Of course, BOTH always happen.

Second, third, and Nth waves finish up the work and begin exploration
of the object (it has a name, but I forget it). All I really remember
is that it harbors some intelligent flying creatures. Another aspect
to the plot, I think, is that people ARE stored "on tape" (i.e.
transmission record) and re-created whenever the current persona is
killed, which happens now and then. (Don't miss your backup dump!)

Another reason for wanting to track this story down is the nagging
feeling that I never did read the concluding section; either I missed
an issue, or the author(s) punted and never did explain the object at
all. (somewhat like the Riverworld, although Farmer does seem to have
reached the finish line; has any other SF book been written up in
TIME?)

--Ken

------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1980 1333-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: The Works

   I was told by a former employee of NYIT that the trailer shown
at SIGGRAPH is something that they are taking around in search of
backers. Thus it is quite possible that the feature length version
will never be made.
   For those who don't know about it, the movie is done in three
dimensional hidden-surface animation. (as opposed to cartoons which
are 2-D) The story is supposed to be about a future Earth in which
the surface has been rendered un-inhabitable. Only robots can work
there.After many years, a space traveler returns to see whats up.
The robots in the story are almost a necessity because everything
(almost) is created out of geometric solids.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1980 1436-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: "The Works"

A slight bit of enlightenment about the forthcoming movie "The Works".
I don't know when it will be completed, but it should be pretty soon.
It is basically Lance Williams PhD thesis from U of Utah (thus the
name).

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1980 1559-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: alien aliens

Most the arguments for the existance of aliens I know proceed from
the assumption that they got there the same way we got here.  Thus
I would be surprised rather than otherwise if they were so alien we
couldn't understand them ... well, at least as well as we understand
ourselves. The weirdest aliens I can more or less go along with are
the ones in Herbert's BuSab stories (Whipping Star, Dosadi Experiment,
etc).  I like Niven's the best -- they're so delightfully human!  (To
point this out graphically: which would you rather have for a friend,
Speaker-to-Animals from Ringworld, or Lucy from I Love Lucy?)

It would be nice if there were a quantitative psychology with which
we could predict what these aliens would be like, the way we can
use physics, chemistry and so forth to reason about their planets
and stars, or even biology to reason about their bodies.

--JoSH

------------------------------

ZRM@MIT-MC 07/20/80 15:47:23 Re: Some thoughts on FTL:

     1) The speed of light is thought to be the fastest rate at which
usable information can be transmitted. Should this belief change we
will be faced with the conclusion that matter contains rather more
energy than we thought it did and so "dematerializing" your spaceship
to FTL transfer it somewhere else will involve the channeling of
energies orders of magnitude (if we are to go, say, across the galaxy
in a matter of days) greater than turning matter into energy under
our present theories.  Considering that turning a pencil into energy
could, if you did it at an explosive rate, level Boston, increasing
the matter to energy ratio a millionfold and then zapping big
spacships around would really be hard and dangerous.
     2) If you did indeed throw "c" out the window then most of
what we know of physics, cosmology, electronics (Seymour Cray would
just love FTL circuitry), information theory (are you listening Ed
Fredkin?), and chemistry would go out the window with it. Ever the
pessimist, I think we are doomed to slowboats.

					--zig

------------------------------

Date:  23 July 1980 16:04 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Starship Controls, AI pilots

Well, yes, the more advanced the technology the fewer the buttons,
the higher the level of input to the starship (the starship becomes
artificially intelligent: "Take me to Dagoba"). Remember Dark Star,
where the ship and the bombs were both intelligent? Star Trek had an
AI on board (it could do voice recognition) but it was claimed that
"real" AI was too hard (M-5 didn't work too well). Clearly HAL could
run the Discovery fine, except for EVA repair (and need for humans to
go through the Gate, except I wish HAL had gone through instead of the
Astronaut (boring clone he was)).

In "Known Space", there are computers smart enough to do translation
(mere autopilots are that smart) but they can't pilot starships
because the Mass Detector is "psionic" so the poor TTL-things can't
tell whether they are about to hit a gravity well.

In the end, I claim, you replace not starships but PEOPLE with the
AIs (plug into your ship and fly, plug into the submarine and swim).

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1980 1026-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: spacecraft controls

  I think LLOYD@AI has the right idea about how controls will
be constructed, but is ignoring the realities of moviemaking.
Verisimilitude, not reality, is the determining factor. A film
can't be any smarter than its audience.  Hence, X-Wings have
a clumsy, obstructive viewfinder because the audience will
recognise it, not because it would be done that way. The same
thing makes them bank into turns.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/24/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
the dramatizing effects of the bloopers in the Star Trek episode
"Court Martial". People who have not seen this episode may not wish
to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 23 JUL 1980 1445-EDT
From: DR at MIT-MC (David M. Raitzin)
Subject: ST bloopers (court-martial episode) [dramatizing effects]

Well then, imagine the script for that episode going as follows: while
Enterprise is being repaired at the star base, Kirk is charged with
jettisoning the pod while on yellow alert. Kirk pleads "not guilty"
and goes on trial. Prosecution's main witness is the computer that
testifies (through some tape and not via a video display, mind you)
that indeed Kirk has committed the crime. The trial proceeds as in the
original episode, without a computer tape though, and we are deprived
of actually seeing Kirk press the jettison button while on yellow
alert, and of hearing him say "but that's not the way it happened!!!"
Oh well, those are only cheap theatrics... Anyhow, Spock ingeniously
figures out that the computer is screwed up, and that Finney might
actually be alive. He isolates all the crewmen's heart beats through
a computer, while the court is waiting for results, (no need for the
court to proceed to the Enterprise, you know), and lo and behold,
Spock finds Finney. A bunch of red-shirts snatch him and bring him
down to the court where he confesses. Everybody is happy, and no
cheap theatrics or "dramatizing effects" necessary!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 JUL 1980 0617-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #25
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 25 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 25

Today's Topics: Yesterday's Date, SF Movies - LA Broadcast of Plan 9,
                SF Mags - Films & Galaxy, Starships - Control Design,
                 SF Books - Starship controls & Title response, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 4:28 am PDT (Thursday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: 24-JUL-1980

Of course, 608 years ago the Julian date contained six consecutive
identical digits for 10 days in a row!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 0944-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Yesterdays date

Foo!  Another clear case of base 10 chauvinism! If the numerologists
in you likes consecutive digits, use binary - or better yet unary.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1980 0214-PDT (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Plan Nine From Outer Space

"Plan Nine From Outer Space", which has been voted the WORST film
of ALL time and in ALL catagories (not just SF) will air tonight
(Friday night/Saturday Morning) in Los Angeles on KCOP-TV 13, at
2:30 AM. A MUST see. Sorry for the short notice; I just discovered
it myself. It is a laugh riot.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 0126-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: from a recent review of current magazines   

By James Warren        (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

     Fantastic Films (September). Not one of the deeper journals, it
features a 12-page interview with the producer of "The Empire Strikes
Back."  Neesa Sweet dissects the phenomenon of Dungeons and Dragons,
an extremely sophisticated game beloved on college campuses. There's
a wonderfully light retrospective on "The Twilight Zone" television
series that includes synopses of nearly all the episodes. ($17 yearly,
1224 Wadsworth, Lakewood, Colo., 80215.)
     This gives me a rare chance to recall my favorite newspaper
headline ever.  Conceived by brilliant, if not tactful, minds at
a Jersey City (N.J.) newspaper, it marked the death of the show's
creator, Rod Serling, and was bannered across page one:

                 "Rod Serling Enters Twilight Zone"

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 1307-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>

Has anyone gotten a copy of the slick version of GALAXY?  I've
just read the last digest version, and thought it was HORRIBLE!
Unfortunately, I have a subscription to the mag, so I will
continue to grin and bear it, hoping for a recovery (although,
given the care with which they handle their subscriptions, I
may not be bothered by them much at all).

Details: the 'stories' in the last issue had little plot, no
worthwhile characters, bad writing, and were just plain DULL.
The new features (such as a SF news column that will ALWAYS be
4 to 6 months out of date due to publishing lags) are worthless
as well.

I've heard the GALAXY will be the little sister of GALILEO.
Although I have always liked the latter mag, it is still nowhere
near the quality of the 'old' (say 3 years old) GALAXY. I think
we (all SFers) lost a lot in the bargain.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 1339-PDT
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Random rumblings on our inability to predict the future    

Pop-up display screens and visual aiming (guiding a missile by looking
at the target) for fighter pilots is discussed in the recent fiction
paperback ``FoxFire.''  The technology for visual aiming is actually
quite old.  It is derived from the device (I'm not sure what it is
called) used by psychologists to measure eye movements.  I have seen
articles in Scientific American which use this device, showing the
sequence of eye movements as a subject looks at some object (a chess
board, for example).  Relating to SW and TESB, is it necessary for a
society that is more technically advanced than ours to be able to do
EVERYTHING that we can do, better than we can do it?

Now on to the main topic.  Predicting anything interesting in the
future is difficult.  I am not sure how one can train for such
a task, and I have very few examples where a really far-seeing
prediction has come true.  Does anyone wish to supply me with some
examples? Of course, the inability of people to predict the future
-- even those people paid to do so, such as Science Fiction writers
-- can be amply documented. My favorite example comes from Heinlein's
``Starman Jones.'' Jones' job is to look up the binary equivalents
of base 10 coordinates so that they can be input to the navigation
computer. While it seemed to Heinlein very plausible that computers
would handle complex navigational calculations -- computers, after
all, only understand binary.  What now appears ridiculous to us,
seemed like a perfectly good logical extension of technology. Do
we, living in a time of accelerated change, have any better idea
of the future?  I say no, the complexity of society is growing
faster than the complexity of the predictions we can make.

Before ending, I would like to plug two enjoyable books.  Both predict
the unpredictability of human endeavours.  They were written pre-World
War II, by Czech writer--and almost nobel prize winner--Karel Capek.
The first is ``R.U.R,'' Rossum's Universal Robots, although the term
androids would better describe these creations.  The book is a fusing
of the Frakenstein legend, with the struggle for ``human'' rights.

The second book, ``War with the Newts'' is a satire (I think it
quitefunny) concerning a similar situation.  I won't give too much
away, but the plot concerns the discovery and exploitation of a large
(the size of a ten year old), intelligent, amphibious newt.  The book
describes, from a global as well as personal viewpoint, the impact of
this new source of labor.  In this sense, it is similar to ``RUR,''
but it paints a darker and funnier picture of the human race.  I
strongly recommend both books.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 11:02 PDT
From: LStewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Starship control

Re: how many buttons on the command chair.

In "Earthman Come Home" by James Blish, there is a remark by Amalfi
that he had three buttons on the bridge, which at times meant various
things.  He had never needed a fourth option in 500 years or so.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 1058-PDT
From: CSD.EADAMS at SU-SCORE
Subject: Starship engineering, TESB.

Heinlein's starship (the slow, cylindrical kind) in the short story
"Universe" which was later novelized (I forget the name) used controls
which required placing a hand over some lights to effect the change.
I think the idea there was that they had all the time in the world to
do it (so no thought- or voice-directed controls were necessary) but
they needed something that wouldn't wear out (even microphones and
speakers will go after a few hundred years!).

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 1149-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: MT Stories

Both Steve Z. and KLH are referring to the same stories, by Fred Pohl
and Jack Williamson, eventually novelized as "The Farthest Star" (if
my memory serves).  Aside from the MT aspect, it's notable for fore-
shadowing some of the themes of Pohl's later "Gateway" and "Beyond
the Blue Event Horizon" (and the shorter "Merchants of Venus"), all
of which I highly recommend.

The best sort of MT is where you warp space in some way (folding it
fourth dimensionally, I suppose?) and just walk to your destination,
as in Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky".  Such MT is really just a
special case of Hyperspatial FTL (or vice versa) and thus kills two
birds with one stone; you need believe only one impossible thing
before breakfast.

        Dave Lebling <PDL@MIT-DMS>

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/25/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 07/25/80 01:01:00
Re: FEMALES IN STAR WARS - WAS LUKE ONE OF THEM?

     Hitchcock has been wondering about the tales of Luke-as-female,
and their veracity.  From the sources I have been able to piece
together, Lucas *did* indeed, in an early draft of the first film,
have a female lead. You can find a number of McQuarrie sketches to
this effect.  In the SW portfolio of McQuarrie paintings, an oil of
"luke" overlooking Mos Eisley indicates that the figure is female -
the explanatory text below the painting says that this was the case
in an early draft.
   There are several unlabeled pix in "The Art of Star Wars" which
also support this theory, beside the one Hitchcock had mentioned.
Early in the book, (page 23 if you have it), there is a doube page
spread of "Princess Leia" sketches. In one she is wearing a costume
which never appears in the final film, but which *does* match the
early "Luke-Leia" costume. And in the color film-poster section
(page 151) there is a shot of the entire cast, which appears to be
a finished version of another McQuarrie sketch. There is a bearded,
baboon-like Wookie, a blonde, bearded Solo-type, and a tomboyish but
definitely female Luke-type. Oh yes, R2-D2 is shown with an extra
arm. All these are consistent as early depictions of the characters.
    It makes some sense. It would seem Lucas just took two characters,
male and female (which would make a very direct love story) and
expanded them into three, which gave him more alternatives...

     Answering another question: the "Muppet Show" episode with guest
Mark Hamill did indeed also star Peter Mayhew as Chewbacca and Tony
Daniels as Threepio. R2D2 was played by a robot. This confirmation
comes from the "Ultimate Star Wars Fan" who adds that Tony Daniels
told her he had to repeat his tap-dance for the cameras five times,
and it damn near sprained his ankle.  What some folks won't do for
showbiz...

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1980 2304-PDT
From: KATZ at USC-ISIF
Subject: Is Darth really Lukes father??

   Aunt Beru:  Luke's just not a farmer, Owen.  He
               has too much of his father in him.

        Owen:  That's what I'm afraid of.

(This was pointed out by Rebecca Roode of Irvine in a letter to the
 L.A. Times Calendar Section.)

				Alan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1980 at 0001-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^ THE PATERNITY QUESTION: CLUTCHING AT A (SODA) STRAW ^^^^^^^^

The indefatigable SW devotee picks up info from any source detectable.
For example, we first found the name for SW-4's "creature in the
garbage chamber" in the sheet of text accompanying the sound track
music album. Now, clutching at a glass, not at a straw, we find an
anti-paternity clue on the "Luke" 'collector series' glass available
at BURGER KINGs during the 4th week of the current promotion:

  "LUKE IS THE SON OF A JEDI KNIGHT WHO WAS KILLED YEARS BEFORE BY
   THE EVIL DARTH VADER. LUKE FIRST LEARNS OF THE FORCE THRU OBI-WAN
   KENOBI, THE LAST OF THE JEDI KNIGHTS, WHO LATER ALSO FALLS TO
   VADER'S TERRIBLE LIGHTSABER."
  (the rest of the text relates to TESB events.)

It's got a Lucasfilm copyright, and what I find particularly
intriguing is the distinction between the outright "WAS KILLED...BY"
vs. the ambiguous "FALLS TO". Why would they bother with such nuances
of expression if they're lying?

------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 07/22/80 20:38:48 Re: TESB in alternate universes

But I really was shocked to find that Obi-Wan was Darth's father...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 JUL 1980 0502-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #26
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 26 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 26

Today's Topics: ADA Comment, Future - Prediction, Hugos - 1980 Voting,
                    SF Bloopers - ST & 2001, SF TV - Buck Rogers,
                  SF Movies - Plan 9, Media on SF - Riverworld, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1980 0647-EDT
From: NIVEN at MIT-DMS (Marilyn Niven)
Subject: chocolate covered manhole covers

     The American Dental Association thinks they are bad for
children's teeth.

Jack Harness

------------------------------

Date: 25 JUL 1980 1351-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: looking forward . . .

  In reply to REP's query, the immediate example of a far-reaching
forecast is Clarke's suggestion, over 30 years ago, of the synchronous
communications satellite (remember, at this point there had been no
successful orbital launches and (so far as I can figure) no radio
communication with anything beyond the ionosphere). The problem with
looking for forecasts much further back is sorting serious forecasts
from amusing societal fictions (Bellamy and Gernsback, to name two
terrible examples, are both \way/ off).  Leonardo da Vinci sketched
helicopters and a bicycle (and someone else well before the Wright
brothers (George Cayley??) actually built a small helicopter [working]
model---but much of this was considered entertainment rather than
serious prophecy.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1980 at 1304-CDT
From: korner at UTEXAS
Subject: predicting the future

     I was struck by the recent flame on our inability to predict
(extrapolate) the future well.
     Without going home to track down the reference, I remember quite
well an anthology of short stories edited by a decent writer (let's
not argue that).  The editor introduced the book with an assault on
our ability to predict what will be possible in the future.  His
chosen tack was a simple what if - a contemporary (early 70's)
airforce robot ramjet engaged in atmospheric sampling over China
(scoop them nasty atomics and see what they're making go bang, etc.)
gets caught in a timewarp and sent back to ~1945.  He apologizes
for the kluge of a timewarp and goes on to describe the wonderful
time that the army air corps would have taking the bird apart (no
reagents pure enough to analyze the semiconductors, no equipment
sensitive to detect a nanosecond pulse- even if they knew where to
look, total incomprehension over waveguides, ramjet principles (it
just seems to squirt kerosene into a strangely shaped tube), etc.).
After an interesting description of the scientific/technological
chaos created by the plane, he asks about the conclusions drawn by
the investigators (is this a product of our culture, from how far
in the is this artifact, etc.)- it is unlikely that they would opt
for a reasonably accurate estimate. How then should we be so cocky
about what will happen in 100 or even 30 years?
     But then we're talking about control systems in a place far,
far away and a time long long ago.....

		Cheers-
		Kim Korner

BTW, who is responsible for the all pervasive "Cheers?"

------------------------------

Date: 21 JUL 1980 1313-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: CHUQUI's dilemma revisited (Noreascon II news)
         [ see SFL V1 #157,158 ]

For those of you who recall my flame on the Hugos and the low numbers
of voters (a few months back), the following: with most of the legal
ballots in (deadline was 15 July postmark) the unofficial count is
just over 1600.  This is much more than either of the past two years,
but in view of the higher preregistration (unofficial approximation
= 5300) it seems to be about the same fraction of people voting.  At
least we're not \losing/ ground; Noreascon I reported something like
730 voters out of 1350 preregistrants, but the voting fraction hasn't
been that high in some time.

------------------------------

Date:  25 July 1980 19:35 edt
From:  SALawrence at MIT-Multics (STEVE at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Star Trek Court Martial episode

Pointing out that nearly everything in this episode was done just for
cinematic effect supports the contention that the episode was really
pretty content free. Since almost nothing which happened on screen had
any real motivation, and most of it was implausible, the conclusion
that the episode stank is really pretty unavoidable -- so why on Earth
are we discussing it?? Let's try to find something to attack which at
least has some redeeming social value.

------------------------------

Date:  25 July 1980 19:35 edt
From:  SALawrence at MIT-Multics (STEVE at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Technical errors in 2001

My last viewing of 2001 was a long long time ago, so I don't recall
a whole lot, but I do remember being somewhat offended by the scene
where one of the astronauts has to pass through a minute or so of
hard vacuum to get back into the ship.

This is certainly possible, but in the film the character HELD HIS
BREATH during and after decompression. Bye, bye lungs. Clarke did
it much better in (I think) Earthlight (anyway, the one about the
war between Earth and the colonies).  Of course, having him puff
out his cheeks and strain to keep every last molecule in his lungs
was certainly more impressive on the screen, and made it very clear
what was going on, even if it would have been fatal in practice...

------------------------------

Date:  24 July 1980 12:52 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Buck Rogers meets Asimov

Speaking of SF that references other SF, consider this.  According to
Ron Miller, of Knight Rider newspapers, (see Boston Globe 24 July 80
page 43) the Buck Rogers TV show is going to change format. Buck will
roam the galaxy, looking for lost colonies of earth.  There will be
some additions to the cast:

     "One is Admiral Ephraim Asimov, a 25th-century descendant of
popular science-fiction writer Isaac Asimov. This may be one of TV's
greats in jokes.  But since Asimov and new producer John Mantley are
old pals, Mantley took the precaution of getting a letter from Asimov
granting permission for this rather unusual homage."

The entire article is good, since Gil Gerard (Buck) has a good sense
of humor about his part.

------------------------------

Date: 25 July 1980 1306-EDT (Friday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: Plan 9

   "Plan Nine From Outer Space" will be shown in Pittsburgh on Sunday
July 27 on Flagstaff Hill in Schenley Park.  The show starts at dusk
and also includes "War of the Worlds".  Free.  "Plan 9" was voted by
somebody to be among the worst films of all time.

------------------------------

Date:  25 July 1980 12:27 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Riverworld review

There is a full-page review of "The Magic Labyrinth" and the rest of
the Riverworld series in the July 28 copy of Time magazine.  It is a
pretty good review from the point of view of someone who has not read
the series.  It has decided me to go out and read them.  But I guess
that the big point is that an SF series got such big press.

------------------------------

Date: 26 July 1980 0220-EDT
From: HJJH at UTEXAS, CSTACY at MIT-AI
Subject: The Making of TESB

Rumor has it that Saturday's (ie. today's) TV broadcast of UNIVERSE
will include a segment on "The Making of TESB".  Please check your
local papers for the appropriate station and time in your area.

UNIVERSE is a television-magazine format program devoted to
science and technology. The show is hosted by Walter Cronkite.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/26/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 1508-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: where is Yoda ??

I've noticed a strange thing of late... In almost all the SW5 (TESB)
items for sale (T-shirts, Burger King glasses, plastic figures, and
the like) that some of the new characters appear (Lando and Boba Fett)
but not Yoda!! Does anyone know the reason??? Does someone else own
his rights? Is Frank Oz pulling a fast one on us??

 This is a shocking situation that must be remedied if our candidate
is going to get enough media coverage to win the upcoming election.

    Jim Hendler 
    Yoda for President Campaign Headquarters
    Dallas TexaS.

P.S. I didn't mind the scenes in the light sabre factory, but Luke
     shooting J.R.??? That was going too far.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1980 (Friday) 0946-EST
From: DYER at NBS-10
Subject: Recall notice - lightsabers made by Damoclese, Inc.

     Those of you who own light sabers with serial numbers that have
a '1138' prefix on them -- WATCH IT!  These are early models with a
couple of bugs still in them, to wit :

  1) The quantum black holes were made too small.  If you don't feed
     them enough they tend to explode in a burst of gamma radiation.
     Keep your sword happy and well-fed, or else!

  2) The gravitic support subsystem (the little red thingy on the
     side) is a lemon -- the field wavers sometimes.  Jedi knights
     have been known to be plastered all over the surface of a black
     hole when the support system on their swords failed. The amount
     of wavering seems to be connected with the mass of the hole --
     so don't feed your sword TOO much....

     If you have such a sword, contact "Vader's Raiders", webcode
VADER1138- SWORD, and for god's sake GET AWAY FROM THE THING!

				Sincerely,
				Ralph Vader, Sec.
cc:bf

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1980 at 0911-CDT
From: clyde at UTEXAS
Subject: TESB realities

     Gee, you were shocked, MJL@MIT-MC?? It's a good thing you
didn't notice the revelation that Chewbacca is an altered clone
of Yoda assigned to keep track of Luke, or that R2D2 is made of
components from Vader's spare parts bin.

     Why, there must be a bunch of blind people out there......
(I guess it comes from scouring over the text on Burger King
glasses in bad light).

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 07/25/80 23:56:56 Re: TESB IN ALTERNATE UNIVERSES

Personally, I thought that the casting of Margaret Hamilton as
Darth Mater, wife of Darth Vader, was a masterstroke.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1980 at 0049-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS
Subject: Alternate TESB Universes...

Ah-h-h-h!  So THAT'S where that platoon of Chinese female Rebel
pilots is!

------------------------------

CSTACY@MIT-MC 07/19/80 12:46:03 Re:  The Ending So Bad

I thought that TESB was kinda short, to have such long waiting lines:

     Luke: (dreamily) "I dunno..I feel like we're....being...WATCHED!"

     Yoda: "Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm."

     Luke: (firing his blaster) "We cant take any chances!"

(the crumpled form of a decrepit little old creature that was once
 Yoda falls into the mud with a thud. Almost immediately, the corpse
 vanishes. A shimmering figure appears behind Luke.)

  Obi-Wan: (hauntingly)  "Luke!   Luke!  You  cretin!"

(another shimmering apparition appears next to Ben.....)

     Yoda: (somewhat annoyed) "Told you I did: reckless is he.
                               Now matters are worse."

                                 -or-

     C3PO: "The odds of successfully navigating an asteriod
            field are....."

     Solo: "NEVER tell me the odd ---BOOOM--- "

   Chewie: "HUgnguahhh Haauhtqqouchfoojkhs"
           (rough translation:"He asked you not to tell him that...")

                                 -or-

    Vader: "<Wcchhooooo-whhheeuhhh> The next time, the boy will not
            escape....The son of Skywalker  WILL join us."

  Emperor: "You have failed me for the last time, Darth Vader."

                         <snap, crackle, pop>

Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 JUL 1980 0602-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #27
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 27 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 27

   Today's Topics: Rating Books, Bibliography Queries and Responses
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07/23/80 1516-EDT
From: FOCUS at LL
Subject: A Suggestion

I suggest that all book or story titles submitted to SFL for inclusion
in a subject list, for instance humorous SF, should include a simple
rating. An example would be:

      ...Dune (r=9)...

With all the lists that have been made lately of various catagories
of books, it is often the case that a brief analysis is not included.
If a review is given, the addition of a rating helps to quantify how
strongly the reviewer feels about the book.

In the example above I have used a rating scale of 1 to 10. If some
other scale is used, such as a star ( * ) scale, an absolute rating
level should be indicated.

Inclusion of ratings in SFL correspondence would serve two purposes.
One, it would help direct other people to new books. Two, it could
generate many interesting discussions as a result of the rating alone
if someone happens to rate a book quite differently than others might.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 (Tuesday) 1010-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: Short Story Series Request

I have flipped through my short story collection and have found that
those stories that I enjoy the most are generally centered around a
common Universe. Examples : Niven's Known Space, Cordwainer Smith's
Instrumentality of Man, Varley's Invaders, etc. What I am interested
in are:

   1) Short stories (not novels, though there may certainly be novels
      included in the Universe [each of the above has at least one
      novel as part of its series]).
   2) Not blatently related, that is no "to be continued" style.
      Reading the stories in random order should be possible (though
      there may be an "approved" order which maximizes understanding).
   3) Preferably more "science fiction" than "fantasy", whatever that
      means.

Send your suggestions to ROSSID@WHARTON and I'll put them together
and ship them out to SF-Lovers.
               Dave

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1980 (Sunday) 1716-EDT
From: WESTFW at WHARTON (William Westfield)
Subject: requests (words and blurbs)

Now that we have gone over fictional references and such, I would
like to complie (have someone compile) a list of fictional or new
words invented by SF writers. (names of planets, etc dont count)
typical examples are: GROK, from Heinlein's Stranger is a Strange
land, Swingle (Swinging single) and Bayquake (totally rearrange or
destroy) from Brunner's Shockwave Rider.

Also, how about some interesting bad blurbs, eg some blurbs for
books are written by people who do not seem to have read the book.
For example:

  Time Enough for Love (heinlein) The blurb says Lazarus Long becomes
  his own ancestor, which he does NOT, at least not within the book.

  Cyborg (Martin Caidin) (the novel version of the $6E6 man -- much
  better than either the movie or TV series better science, and more
  believable personalities) The blurb says Steve gets a powerful
  bionic eye and ear, neither of which is true.  Any others?

------------------------------

Date: 27 July 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Responses on Environments / SF Comedy & Parody / Gene Eng


Effects of Special Environments:
--------------------------------

Macroscope by Piers Anthony (novel)

  The main characters in Piers Anthony's Macroscope were a group of
  selected children raised specially. -- Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>

"The First Men" by Howard Fast (short story)
  available in The Edge of Tommorrow (collection)

  This story is about a secret govt. project to create an environment
  where children with IQ of > 150 are raised with no interference from
  outside. As you might expect, something unexpected happens.
                                     --  Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>

The Dosadi Experiment by Frank Herbert (novel)

  The Dosadi Experiment is about a controlled environment and the
  experimenters certainly did get much more than they bargained for.
                                                    -- <ZRM at MIT-MC>

In the Problem Pit by Frederik Pohl (short story)

  Frederick Pohl's "In The Problem Pit" was explicitly a story
  about bringing together a group of people to work on problems in
  isolation. The twist was that they would be chosen completely at
  random, and their backgrounds would have nothing to do with the
  problem under study. This way they would hopefully come up with
  something beyond a merely technical answer.  The story was in an
  early seventies FASF; I don't know if it's been reprinted.
                                         --  <ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE>


SF Comedy & Parody:
-------------------

So much comes to mind!  How about:
   * any collection of short stories by Sheckley
   * The Best of Henry Kuttner
   * Clarke's "White Hart" stories
   * any collection of short stories by
     Fredric Brown (the O Henry of SF)
   * Martian Go Home (also by Brown)
   * Wasp, by Eric Frank Russell
   * The Cyberiad, by Stanislaw Lem
   * Another Fine Myth, by Asprin
   * Earthman's Burden, by Anderson & Dickson
     (mentioned before in SFL V2 #17,19)
   * The Flying Sorcerers, by Niven & Gerrold
                                           -- Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>

[ and here are a few comments on some of Don's suggestions.  --  RDD ]

EARTHMAN'S BURDEN and
STAR PRINCE CHARLIE   by Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson

  These are two books about Hokas from the planet Toka.  Hokas are
  teddy bear-like creatures who like to read fiction and act out
  those characters to the hilt, getting the humans who associate
  with them into all sorts of messes.    --  Bruce <Israel at MIT-AI>

MARTIANS GO HOME by Fredric Brown (novel)

  Fredric Brown's "Martians Go Home" is deliberately funny.  I read
  it when I was young, it might seem silly now, but then it was good.
  The Martian invasion of Earth is one of nuisance.  The Martians
  are intangible, but not transparent.  They can go anywhere, make
  insulting remarks, get in your visual way, etc.  They are disposed
  of in a way not here to be revealed.
                                 --  <JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics>

Much of Stanislaw Lem's work

  Much of Stanislaw Lem's work is humorous, ranging from semi-serious
  satire to total theater of the absurd.  I believe a fair number of
  his stories have now been translated into English, but all the
  titles seem to be swapped out of my memory at the moment. One of his
  short stories dealt with the invention of a probability machine and
  its consequences.  I remember laughing out loud all while reading
  it.  Anyone remember the title?     -- Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>

FLYING SORCERORS by Larry Niven and David Gerrold (novel)

  A novel about the meeting between a NASA astronaut and the culture
  of a primitive species which believes in magic. It includes a couple
  of brothers named Orbur and Wilville who try to build a flying
  machine. It also has some self-referential SF. One example of this
  is one of the gods they worship.  He is Elcin (read Ellison), the
  god of little nasty creatures.          --  Bruce <Israel at MIT-AI>

[ with some other suggestions.  --  RDD ]

A SPELL FOR CHAMELEON,
THE SOURCE OF MAGIC,
CASTLE ROOGNA
  by Piers Anthony (trilogy)

  Not science fiction, but fantasy: Piers Anthony's "trilogy" of
  A SPELL FOR CHAMELEON, THE SOURCE OF MAGIC, and CASTLE ROOGNA are
  great in that the story is serious, but the descriptions are funny.
  They are extremely well-written with tight pacing, suspense, and
  believable characters and endings.       --  Alan <Katz at USC-ISIF>

WITH FRIENDS LIKE THESE by Alan Dean Foster (collection)

  Alan Dean Foster has a short story called "With Friends Like
  These..." In a collection of stories by the same name. The other
  stories are not as amusing or memorable as "Friends" but it is a
  good collection.           -- <DMM at MIT-ML> and <JBARRE at MIT-AI>

GLORY ROAD by Robert Heinlein (novel)

  I thought Heinleins "Glory road" was hilarious. I think it was
  supposed to be.                         --  Bill <WESTFW at WHARTON>

THE FLIGHT OF THE HORSE - Larry Niven

  This is a collection of stories about a bumbling time-traveler who
  tries traveling to the past, but each time winds up in a land full
  of myths.  One time he travels back to get a horse before they
  became extinct, but the pictures in the history books didn't seem
  to include the long horn on the top of the horses head.
                                          --  Bruce <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>

"Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" by John Varley (short story)
  available in THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION (collection)

  This story is about what happens when a human gets stuck within a
  computer when his body is misplaced.    --  Bruce <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>

COSMIC LAUGHTER (anthology)

  As to humorous SF, there is a hilarious anthology called "Cosmic
  Laughter", which is definitely worth reading.    --  <KWH at MIT-AI>


Genetic Engineering Applications:
---------------------------------

Bordered in Black by Larry Niven (short story)
  available in Convergent Series (collection)

  There's another short story called BORDERED IN BLACK I think, where
  there is a planet-full of humanoids, which were food animals.  I
  don't know if they were engineered to be that way.
                                            --  Don <DErway at MIT-AI>

  This short story can be found in The Shape of Space and also in
  the (easier to find) Convergent Series.  -- Don Woods <Don at SU-AI>

The Instrumentality Series by Cordwainer Smith

  Finally, on the subject of genetic engineering, what about all the
  stories by Cordwainer Smith?       --  Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>

  Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality series (I think this included at
  least one book length work) has all sorts of genetically modified
  animals, C'Mell was a cat-lady of some importance.
                                          --  Bill <WESTFW at WHARTON>

Gladiator by Phillip Wylie

  Building a superman, done thru some kind of serum/formula, I don't
  remember how tho. This story and the previous one are excellent
  works on what would happen to a superman in our world.
                                      --  Steve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>


[ SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

  The following message is the last message in this digest. It talks
  about The Exile Trilogy by Ben Bova. People who have not read this
  trilogy may not wish to read any further.  --  RDD ]


The Exile Trilogy by Ben Bova (novel)

  The Exile Trilogy by Ben Bova deals with a bunch of Genetic
  engineers that are exiled from earth because their work is
  deemed "dangerous to world stability". They modify the space
  station they are shut up in to make it a starship, and take
  off for the stars. I didn't like these books. I found them very
  melodramatic and cliche-ish, with poor science and unbelievable
  people (after reaching a potentially habitable system, they
  decide NOT to genetically modify their children because "they'd
  be inhuman monsters", and risk the ship (which is falling apart)
  to try and reach a better system).  --  Bill <WESTFW at WHARTON>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 JUL 1980 0505-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #28
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 28 July 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 28

   Today's Topics: Future - Prediction, SF Bloopers - 2001, Hugos,
                   SF Books - On Wings of Song, Rating Books, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1980 0344-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: looking forward . . .

Although Clarke was far ahead of his time in regard to synchronous
communications satellites, even here he missed a few beats. Although
I have not read his science article detailing the suggestion, his
early fiction always had the satellites MANNED.  He did not forsee
the fantastic reductions in size of electronics (semi-conductors were
yet to be invented) or their corresponding increase in reliability.

Heinlein is another author who made some good conceptual
predictions.  He broached the concept that nuclear power plants
might entail serious hazards in 'Blowups Happen' (although the
specific danger he was talking about never really materialized). He
also 'predicted' the nuclear stalemate in 'Solution Unsatisfactory',
although here his technical details concering the bomb were off (he
considered radioactive dust, a version of fallout, as the primary
weapon, not nuclear bombs).

Just goes to show that even though people have correctly predicted
a CONCEPT on occasion, they have seldom correctly predicted the
eventual implementation (and thus many of the major economic, social,
and political implications).  As a matter of fact, I cannot remember
a non-trivial prediction that really predicted the full implications
of several novel ideas interacting (like satellites and electronics).
To do so seems to be a task an order of magnitude harder than simply
predicting a single concept.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 26 July 1980 1441-EDT (Saturday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: 2001: A Lung Burster

   It should be noted that the emergency airlock sequence of 2001
was known to be feasible when the movie was made. It was known to
them through an Air Force study on apes.

------------------------------

BATALI@MIT-AI 07/26/80 12:00:36 Re: heavy breathing

It is not altogether clear to me that holding one's breath upon
decompression is a bad thing. The maximum difference in pressure,
after all, is probably less than one atmosphere. NASA used a lower
pressure, higher oxygen mixture and I think that the commies use
higher pressure with a nitrogen component closer to normal air.
So in any case the danger is a rapid decompression of about one
atmosphere.
     My scuba instructor told us that there are two ways to lose
when surfacing: holding one's breath -- which causes the lungs to
rupture and release air embolisms; and coming up too fast from too
deep -- which causes nitrogen fizzies (the bends).
     Although you never decompress as fast as you would in space,
surfacing from, say, 200 ft involves a much greater change in
pressure. (about 30 feet of water is an atmosphere).  And although
air embolisms can form in very shallow water they are usually only
serious when much greater depths are involved, and the treatment
usually involves recompression. The severity of the bends depends
on the speed of decompression and the degree to which the blood
is saturated with nitrogen at the pressure one is rising from.
Treatment also involves recompression but the effects of even
relatively minor cases are fairly unpleasant.
     In any case, the tradeoff is between air embolisms and the
bends. (There also may be a problem with the contents of the stomach
and other organs with a pipe to the outside.)  The most important
factor is the rapidity of the decompression.  It is possible that
embolisms may be even worse if the air passages are left open due
to the difference between the pressure of the blood and vacuum. It
seems to me that the best strategy may just be to get all internal
organs as tense as possible, holding one's breath and using the
chest and abdominal muscles to counteract the pressure change.
This would prevent the bends and minimize lung damage.
     I'm just speculating, of course. Does anyone know what
astronauts or jet pilots are told to do in this eventuality?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1980 1428-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "On Wings of Song"

A paperback edition of Thomas Disch's "On Wings of Song" has come
out, just in time to miss the Hugo balloting deadline.  Although
most of the novels that get nominated seem to be available in
hardback, few seem to hit the mass markets in time for the voting.
The shorter categories are even more inaccessible, particularly
the nominees that appear in hardback anthologies like Orbit that
are only bought by libraries.  Is it any wonder then, that so few
votes get cast?  It's just an example of the fine scientific
attitude of not deciding unless all the data is in.
     Be that as it may, "On Wings of Song" is a well-written
novel with a minimal amount of science fiction in it. It's set
in a near-future America that is slowly going down the tubes. The
Eastern cities are largely in ruins, energy supplies are so tight
that when terrorists blow up the Alaska pipeline the country is
plunged into darkness, industry, agriculture, everything is down.
The only unfamiliar element in the picture is that astral projection
is regularly possible. By plugging into this machine and singing with
sufficient soul, one's mind can leave the body and fly about the world
at will.  The singing is a necessary, though never really justified
condition; if you are tone-deaf or emotionless you'll never make it.
    The protagonist is raised in Iowa, a state that is so fearful of
the religous implications of flying that it has banned the sale of
flying equipment and even frowns upon music in general.  Naturally
it becomes his life's ambition to fly. He lacks real musical talent,
however, and so the book becomes story of his steady degradation in
search of his goal.  Only when he reaches the very bottom, by becoming
a concubine of a castrati opera singer, does he come close to taking
off.
    The reason why this is only barely science fiction is that the
flying part of it is hardly touched on. Any transcendent experience
could be substituted for it and the plot would work out much the
same. Aside from an increase in religous fanaticism in Iowa, no social
implications of it are mentioned.  People in New York refer to it as
casually as if it were a new kind of drink. Disch could be saying that
it'll be business as usual in spite of such changes, but I think that
he just isn't interested in what is basically a ridiculous premise.
Instead he takes a cynic's delight in describing the decay of the
country and the humiliation of his characters.  The writing is funny
and clever enough to pull you through the book, but it leaves a bad
aftertaste.

PS I'm against the idea of rating books we describe in SF-LOVERS
      a) because people's tastes differ so much that the ratings
         will be meaningless and
      b) because you're trying to quantify something, namely the
         quality of a book, that is not really quantifiable.
   If a description here and a few minutes standing in the Coop or
   wherever reading the first couple of pages isn't enough, tough.
 
------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/28/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

DMM@MIT-ML 07/26/80 21:34:51 Re: cinematic effect, etc.

Just so none of you get too carried away in over-analyzing TESB...
The following is an excerpt from the 7/26/80 Universe program in
which George Lucas was interviewed by Walter Cronkite:

"We sort of go off on our imaginations, and whatever we can do
 to entertain ourselves is where we go; whether it's logical or
 scientific or not. The films have sound in space, and we violate
 a lot of natural laws just for sort of entertainment-enjoyment
 effect, which is the prime mover. But it also gives ...young
 people an interest in space generally..."

------------------------------

JBARRE@MIT-AI (Sent by DMM) 07/26/80 21:41:57 Re: Yoda Marketing

     Come, come! You don't expect LucasFilm and Kenner to market
*everything* connected with TESB right away now, do you?  It seems
perfectly logical to me to hold back marketing Yoda until Christmas
since he is obviously a big favorite from the film.  As George M.
Cohan used to say: "Always leave 'em wanting more."
     From what I hear tho, Yoda hasn't been completely left out of
the current round of TESB paraphanellia.  A friend reports that she
has a pair of Yoda sweatsox....

--julie

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 1058-PDT
From: CSD.EADAMS at SU-SCORE
Subject: TESB

The Empire is too smart to use nukes -- you have to wait too long
before you can go have a look at the place you've just conquered. But
the suggestion that this prevents them from bombing the hell out of
Hoth is ridiculous -- look at what happened to Leia's home planet!
(Now, perhaps the Empire didn't have the resources to build another
Death Star...) Also, unless the Death Star was only a one-shot device
(destroy a planet, go home and refuel, destroy another, go home...),
it should have made a hell of a lot bigger bang than it did when it
went. Anybody got any statistics on what it takes to reduce a planet,
say, Earth-sized, to shrapnel?

Final, feminist note: The Other Hope damned well better not be Leia's
SON.  If it's Leia, OK. If it's Vader or even Lando, OK. But it would
be crass for it to be Son of Son of Skywalker.

PS: it ain't Vader. If he's really a good guy trying to destroy the
    Empire from within, he could have found nicer ways to get the
    information he wanted out of Leia than blowing up her planet,
    and nobody would have known the difference.

                                Ernest

------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 07/18/80 21:25:59 Re: Yoda's hope

I don't think that Luke and Leia's future child is going to be the
other hope. There are two situations where Yoda and Ben need another
hope. The first is if Luke dies. If this happens then Luke and Leia
are obviously not going to have a child (this is assuming that Leia
doesn't get pregnant before he dies, a not unreasonable assumption).
the other case is if Luke gets converted by Darth.  Knowing Leia's
feelings about evil, I don't think that she and Luke would get
together in that case unless she didn't know about it.  I don't
think its possible to hide the fact that one has gone over to the
dark side of the force, though.  However, Lucas can do absolutely
anything he feels like; after all, its his universe.

- Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1980 (Sunday) 2133-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Luke's lineage

It would be interesting if Leia turned out to be "the other" by
virtue of being Luke's mother.  Then, in SW-6, Luke could sleep
with his mother and stab his father.  Oh my.

-Dave

------------------------------

JBARRE@MIT-AI 07/27/80 01:19:46 Re: TESB in an alternate Universe

     I agree with LARKE that the casting of Margaret Hamilton was
indeed a stroke of genius.  She stole the movie with the line to
Princess Leia:

       "I'll get you my pretty.  And your little 'droid too!"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 JUL 1980 0524-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #29
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 29 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 29

Today's Topics: Niven Cameo Appearance, Request, Future - Prediction,
                  SF Bloopers - 2001, SF Movies, Rating Books, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

MOON@MIT-MC 07/28/80 11:56:56

Anybody notice the picture of Larry Niven in Sunday's Steve Roper
and Mike Nomad comic strip?

------------------------------

Date: 28 JUL 1980 2326-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: address query

Does anybody know the address of William Rotsler, the famed SF fan
artist?  Please reply directly to RODOF@USC-ECL.

                                 Many thanx, Bob

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1980 2055-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Prophecy

The article dealing with the failure of prophecy was an editorial by
John Campbell in the May, 1968 Analog.  While a verbatim extraction
would violate copyrights, I think a summary of the more interesting
points are worth summarizing (it is one of my favorite articles on
the failure of prophecy):

The aircraft, after being thrown back in a time warp from 1970 to
1930, lands at an airbase in Dayton, Ohio, and it can't possibly
exist.  It's radioactive, and one of the elements is, for goodness
sake, /barium/.  Not only that, but a lot of other elements known
/by direct, positive observation/ to be stable are found to be
radioactive.  Absurd.

It has radio devices, but no vacuum tubes.  A vaguely vacuum-tube
like device has no detectable emission (it is a low-frequency
microwave tube that nothing of 1930 technology could be used to
detect).

Some of the larger power transistors can be analyzed, and are
absolutely pure silicon; the technology of 1930 could not detect
the doping levels of impurities.

The radar microwave plumbing would be unintelligible.

Gallium arsenide laser communications gear would likewise be
unintelligible; they lase only at termendous current densities
and the technology of the 1930s could not produce the microsecond
pulses required so that the /average/ current density was reasonable.

The drone is a ramjet, and uses the classical coke-bottle shape, but
the wings won't lift and the ram won't work at <500mph, and nothing
in 1930 could achieve that speed.

One of the points of the article is that the standard operating
technology of a simple drone reconaissance plane of 1968 or so
operated on physical principles which were totally unimagined
in 1930.

Teflon, silicone rubber, welded(??!!!) titanium (!!!!?????!!!!)

Now, for those of you who have been hacking computers for >10 years:
think about how fast computer technology has changed; if we consider
just hardware, I can now go out and buy a complete processor for $8.00
which is 10 times faster than the processor on my first computer, and
costs less than one day's punched card supply for that beast (remember
punched cards?).  Do you really want to predict where hardware tech-
nology will be in 20 years?  How much is the energy crisis going to
change our basic mode of living---instead of shipping people to work,
ship work to people? This has always been a recurring theme in SF,
but always, it seems, coupled with an energy-abundant environment
(amazing, how most sf writers cannot overcome their cultural biases;
read most mediocre sf of the 50's, then compare with the "classic"
works of the same era, Pohl, Anderson, Asimov, Heinlein, et. al.,
which are much less, if at all, dated by massive changes in our
society). Turns out, there is no motivation to make 2-hour workdays
and home offices when in an energy-surplus economy. But when there
is no gas to get to work, only those services for which physical
presence is absolutely essential will require people to "go to
work" ...and current robotic research, plus existing technology
for sophisticated waldoes, will either reduce the need for people
in such positions, or make it possible for them to work in remote
locations. Although I don't like the idea, I'm afraid that Mack
Reynolds' society is more likely than most of the alternatives
I've seen proposed.

Toffler, you ain't seen /nothin'/ yet!
				joe

P.S. On Words in SF:
     Funny, a word I just used in a previous note: "Waldoes", those
     mechanical hands used in nuclear material handling, were named
     after the mechanical hands described by Heinlein in the story
     "Waldo".

------------------------------

Date:  28 July 1980 22:47 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)

I personally don't think the world has been getting more and more
complex.  Most complicated modern things (e.g. Eurodollars) have
been around in some form or another for a few thousand years.
There is a tendency to simplify the past because we weren't there.

The difficulty in projecting the future is similar to the problem
with figuring out what a program is going to do. The solver is part
of the problem. Furthermore things are not deterministic, there is
always chance. Two good references on predicting the future would be
Godel, Escher and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid and Fractals: Form,
Chance and Dimension.

Martin Gardner had a comment on the future in his Fads and Fallacies
in the Name of Science. He described a game called Stump the Prophet
in which the prophets predict what they want and everyone listens
and then goes home and does exactly what he wants to. The game is
described as simple, but for a simple people quite entertaining.

I would also like to point out that you can't SEE a black hole for
obvious reasons (also for non-obvious reasons).

                                         Seth

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 07/28/80 06:50:41 Re:  Explosive Decompression

I have been through the USAF physiological training and we
were trained to deal with explosive decompression (I even got
to experience it in an altitude chamber that was explosively
decompressed from 8K to 25K feet).  The first instruction is
DO NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH.  The lungs cannot maintain a 1
atmosphere pressure differential without rupturing.

Another interesting piece of information is the estimated time
of usable consciousness.  It ranges from infinity at or below
12K feet to 20 sec at or above 45K feet (a vacuum).

So, if you ever have to "breathe space", don't hold your breath.
Also, don't worry; your blood won't boil until after you are
unconscious.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1980 1514-PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: 2001 air lock scene, and other movies

     In scuba diving, you have to be VERY careful surfacing. If you
hold your breath, coming up from 12 feet can do some real damage
(every 30 feet or so is 1 atmosphere). Thus a pressure change of 1
atmosphere in the air lock could really hurt the guy (was it Bowman?
I forget). The problem isn't just the presure change, though, since
he could let the air out, like you do diving.  When you hit a vacuum
(or close to it), body temperature is well above the boiling point of
water, thus any mucus membrane the comes in contact with the vacuum
(eyes, nose, lungs, etc) is going to get dehydrated like hell. This
isn't to say he wouldn't survive, just get burned awfully bad.  To
say nothing of being cold. Of course, if I were faced with the same
problem, I might be willing to take the chance of surviving a vacuum
for a few seconds. I don't imagine that little pod would make it back
to earth.
     Also it seems to me was one scene with a ship landing on the moon
where you see swirling clouds of dust under the jets.  Since there is
no air, it seems to me the dust (at least around the edges) should
have gone in a parabola.  Its the air presure on the side that would
cause the swirling clouds.  I do realize this would be hard to film,
though.
     As long as I'm on sf movies, I might as well mention Solaris. I
saw it twice, and then read the book.  I didn't like it too much the
first time, but enjoyed it quite a bit the second. The book, however,
was much better.
     As far as favorite sf movies of all time, I have two to
recommend.  One is Silent Running, a surprisingly intelligent
movie about the last bits of forest and natural terrain of earth,
in a somewhat unusual setting.  The second (an oldie, but still a
favorite) is Forbidden Planet.  It has some flaws, but given the
year it was made (1952 or 53 or thereabouts) it is extremely well
done. Intelligent plot, some interesting ideas, and not bad effects.

------------------------------

Date: 07/28/80 0951-EDT
From: FOCUS at LL
Subject: Subjective Book Ratings

I would like to comment on Redford's feelings about the rating
of novels in SFL lists, and to expand on the reasons behind my
suggestion.

First, if all novel reviews in SFL were as well considered and
complete as Redford's review of "On Wings of Song", then I could
easily order books from the publisher sight unseen and not be
disappointed very often.

Note that I purposely did not recommend that all novels mentioned
in SFL receive such treatment, but only those which get submitted
for inclusion in the many subject lists that have been compiled of
late. Often titles of this type fly by all too quickly to receive
adequate comment.  Indeed, it would defeat the purpose of such lists
and over burden SFL if everyone submitted a lengthy review of each
selection. A brief subjective rating would help to float the better
titles to the top for possible further consideration.

Concerning Redford's remark about the unavailability of many SF
titles before awards time, I can only wonder at his lack of belief
in the usefulness of subjective ratings.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1980 0013-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>

On using numeric ratings for comparison:  0

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1980 10:54 PDT
From: Karlton at PARC-MAXC
Subject: More Re: Yoda Marketing

My son (who has purchased all of the Kenner 2 to 4 inch dolls
connected with SW and TESB that he can find) has in his possession a
Yoda doll, complete with robe, cane and "snake" (which wraps around
him lovingly).

PK

------------------------------

Date: 28 JUL 1980 1614-EDT
From: DR at MIT-MC (David M. Raitzin)
Subject: yoda disappeared

It appears to me that it was Yoda who shot J.R. and not Luke,
therefore the police are holding him for questioning and hence
the disappearance of Yoda memorabilia.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1980 1737-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: TESB music

A symphonic suite of the music from TESB has been released as a
digital recording by Chalfont Records.  Support new technology
and buy one (it sounds good, also).  It should be available in
any audiophile shop.

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1980 at 0003-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB: RECORD vs. FILM ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The dialogue in the TESB narrative album differs slightly from the
film.  The record has two extra 1-word lines:

           [Rebel Base, infirmary]
   C-3PO:  Master Luke, sir, it's so good to see you fully
           functional again.
   *LUKE:  Thanks.
   
   .........
   
           [carbon freeze chamber]
    LEIA:  I love you!
     HAN:  I know.
  *VADER:  Begin!

The second may have been necessitated by the purely auditory medium,
but not the first.

Elsewhere, tho I'll not absolutely swear to it until I check one more
time: during the dialog between Luke and Han at the beginning of the
film, Han says (on the record), "...sensors are placed; I'm comin'
back", but our (admittedly scratchy) tape seems to have "I'm goin'
back".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 JUL 1980 0427-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #30
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 30 July 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 30

  Today's Topics: Future - Electronic commuting, SF Bloopers - 2001,
                  SF Movies - SF/F/H awards, SF Books - Dragon's Egg
                  & Roadmarks & Eyes of Amber & Invented Words, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980 at 1010-PDT
From: chesley at sri-unix
Subject: Electronic commuting

     Of course, the surplus of energy didn't allow people to commute
to work rather than the work commuting to them. It allowed people to
live in some place other than where they work.  Thus, without the
surplus, people may go back to living near where they work rather
than commuting electronicly.  I worked in a place where it was an
iron-clad rule that people had to be in by 8:30 (a rule which I was
constantly at odds with), and the impression I always had was that
the company didn't really trust you to work unless they knew you were
at work at least eight hours a day.  That is, they wanted to actually
see you working, or at least not sleeping, read SF, etc., for a solid
eight hours. Research places have always been an exception to this (I
think because people enjoy working there, and would probably be doing
it in their spare time if they had to dig ditches 8 to 5), but for
the bulk of the jobs out there, this I-don't-believe-you're-working-
unless-I-see-you-working attitude will have to be changed (if
possible) before electronic commuting becomes a reality.

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1980 15:51-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>

As long as we're on the subject of 2001 bloopers, has anyone mentioned
the classic scene in which several people begin to eat, and the only
way to eat food is by sucking it up in a straw...  Well, we know that
there isn't any gravity, 'cause they're in free fall, so why does the
liquid fall down the straws after the people have had their sips, hmm?
Someone may mention suction from the container of food, but I got the
impression that these containers were tupperware-like, i.e. not
flexible enough to have that much suction, and besides, it \looked/
like the effect of gravity.

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 07/29/80 23:35:59 Re: FILM AWARDS

  (UPI-Hollywood) - The outer space chiller "Alien" has been voted
  the best science fiction film. "The Muppet Movie" was voted best
  fantasy film and "Love at First Bite" best horror film during
  presentation of the annual Science Fiction Film Awards.
     The winners were selected by 3000 members of the Academy of
  Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror Films.  The presentations
  were made Saturday.
     Special life career awards were given to William Shatner
  and Gene Roddenberry, the star and producer of "Star Trek - the
  Motion Picture." Roger Moore was named top international star.

   Does anyone know what other awards were given out at the
presentation?  And who dares to offer other comments? Myself, I'm
not too happy with the choices, but then, what was the alternative?

------------------------------

Date:  8 Jul 1980 (Tuesday) 1852-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: Dragon's Egg

   Note to Dr. Forward : the book had to be special ordered... how
many are out and why are they so scarce?  Also, do you ever think a
single book will win the Nobel, Pulitzer, Hugo, Nebula, and Moebius
{?} prizes?  Somehow, no matter how good a book it is would seem not
to appeal to at least one of the judging groups!

   Also, how fast is long and short talk?  Does the reference
to acoustic waves mean "sound" speed? The speed of sound seems
fantastically slow communication method to beings a million
times faster than us.

              Dave

------------------------------

Date: 29 JUL 1980 0259-EDT
From: JDD at MIT-ML (John DeTreville)
Subject: Roadmarks

I disagree with ICL.REDFORD's recent analysis of Zelazny's "Roadmarks"
[SFL V2 #23]. Although somewhat related to the Amber series, the style
of writing is very different.  In Amber, Zelazny described everything,
presented everything, left very little to the imagination.  This makes
the books seem very rich but is ultimately disastrous.  By the third
book or so, the setting completely overwhelms any character develop-
ment or plot, everything gets terribly convolved, and when the series
finally ends it's a sort of euthanasia. The Amber series is incredibly
topheavy.

In Roadmarks, on the other hand, Zelazny seems to be reacting to the
sort of writing mess he got himself into in Amber. Oh sure, there's
a Road, and travellers on it, and so forth, but the style has become
much more spare. Zelazny is leaving much more to the imagination. He
doesn't tell what it is that the protagonist is seeking: the important
thing is that he's seeking something.  By leaving out the background
it becomes possible to tell a story comparable to Amber in one book
instead of half a dozen.

It doesn't work all that well, overall, but it's occasionally
brilliant.  The Amber series is better than Roadmarks, but
Roadmarks is better than the nth member of the Amber series.

 -- John DeTreville

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/11/80 02:29:42 Re: a book

I have just finished reading Joan Vinge's collection of novelettes
called "Eyes of Amber and other stories" (Signet-451-J8863). Her
ability to create characters and take technology "for granted" is
well advanced (no hard science here). I recommend it to all who
enjoy "light" SF (I may be prejudiced here as I know Joan and
Vernor. They are now separated so that limits my exposure to Joan.
Vernor still teaches mathematics at San Diego State University.)
                                        Brian

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980 (Tuesday) 2019-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: Question on new books

  Those who have reqd the following "new" books please send ME your
comments.  I am particularly interested in answering the question :
"Is the book worth buying in hardback/tradeback, or should one wait
for the softback, or not get it at all?"

   WIZARD - J. Varley
   THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST - R. A. Heinlein
   BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON - F. Pohl
   THE PATCHWORK GIRL - L. Niven

Also, I would be interested in hearing from people who read "Floating
Worlds {Holland}" and LIKED it because I HATED it and must assume I
missed something. Oh, and did anyone read/like "RISSA KERGULEN" by
F. M. Busby?
                   Dave

------------------------------

Date: 30 July 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Responses on SF Words

Invented Words in SF:
---------------------

  For a whole slew of new words try Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar".
                                     --  <York.Multics at MIT-Multics>

  I imagine there are thousands of such. "Stand on Zanzibar" for
  example is a goldmine for made-up words. "TANJ" from Ringworld.
  "Waldo" from "Waldo". This is an example of words that have passed
  into the language. "hyperspace" is a term from math but surely
  "hyperdrive" is from the SF mass consciousness. "Clockwork Orange"
  has a whole language.  One might also point out phrases which have
  old words but new concepts: "cloaking device", "transfer booth",
  "warp factor seven".                       -- JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>

  I was completely taken by Niven's new word in his latest book,
  "The Patchwork Girl". The police are unable to look at part of the
  surface of the Moon because they are missing a spy sattelite, they
  had requested another but it was "proxmired". The word is not only
  appropriate but has the right flavor due to its resemblance to
  "quagmire"...                                     -- <DLW at MIT-AI>

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980  13:48 PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Language?  Words?

     writertype past Brunner and Burgess, from turn of theme
to structure of sentence, brings us by a commode of viscous
regurgitation back to James Joyce and the Wake.
     James Joyce, violer de mots, raised in Eire and unreturned child
prodigal, taughts to us with a precession of words in all wise scene.
Ah the sham of his shimmerrocks, the lien on his limnaracks! For just
betixt Jute and Mute, the plain dallies and sense of the matter is a
mite gyroscopic (When Earish Eyes are Smelling), what to be listed
in these fellow sages.  Whats a matter to doe when Joyce exposes his
private parts of speech with nouns and thens, (1 + ad)verbs, personal
propositions, conjectives, the jokes of ughs (believing, as do we all,
that the pun is mightier than the surd), intoned groanwails, messes
for the dad sprinkled with wholey water, various millitarried ranks
including Private Parts, Major Incident and General Confusion (alls
fear in law and war), rising sons and fallen knights. This silence
friction will rust your clackwords orange. To fairappraise the mister
hinselbsts, Three Quarks for Germs Choice!
     After alls shed and donned, nose choler of languishins should
leave this dream undrammed, 'cause this clickyclick

/Mike

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/30/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1980 00:31-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Exploding Death Star

C'mon now!  Since when will destroying a powerful weapon cause it to
release its energy?  You think dynamiting Oak Ridge would wipe out
Tennessee?

-- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1980 1129-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Lando and the Carbonite container

A friend claims he saw Lando Calrissian slip somthing into the
controls of the Carbonite container thats holds Han.  Did anybody
else see this?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980 at 0149-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^ 2001'S LUNG-BUSTER & SF FILM REFERENCES IN TESB ^^^^^^^^^^

In TESB when Luke goes seeking Vader between the 1st and 2nd segments
of the duel, he goes thru a brightly-lit "tunnel" which seemed to
me so reminiscent of the setting in the "lung-buster" scene that I 
thought it might be a "cinematic reference" to 2001. Does that seem
likely, to anyone else?

(Did anyone notice what might have been other such "references"? John
 M. has suggestesd that Chewie holding C-3PO's head was modeled on a
 well-known statue/picture of an ape gazing thoughtfully at a human
 skull.  This has some support in the shooting script which says that
 Chewie picks up the head and "barks a few remarks of a philosophical
 nature".)

------------------------------

VAD@MIT-AI 07/26/80 12:44:52 Re: Belated TESB comments

I finally got around to reading the list archive.  I don't know if
anybody brought this out:
     When DV chops off Luke's hand, not one drop of blood comes out,
and a mere squeeze under the other arm seems to keep things dry also.
This sort of got me wondering, is Luke either an insect, or a droid???
I like the way they fixed his hand up, but I had this feeling that it
was just a replacement part for the one he had lost!  Any ideas?
     Another thing I was wondering about is the 'bent' gravity field
passing through that central shaft in the city,which made Luke fall
first 'down', and then sideways and [luckily!] through that hole in
the side into the garbage chutes.
     The inhabitants of that city must have very clean garbage,too....
I noticed no slime on the funny bars that he fell down on to. If you
look at any modern dumpster that's used at all it's pretty revolting
inside!  Actually all the garbage probably winds up in Hydroponics.
oh well, back to the archives......
        -- Hobbit

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 JUL 1980 0525-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #31
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 31 July 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 31

 Today's Topics: Last lines, SF Bloopers - 2001, Future - Electronic
                 Commuting, SF Books - Dragon's Egg & Rating Books &
                        The Number of the Beast & Vinge, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1980 0935-PDT (Wednesday)
From: Lou at UCLA-ATS (Lou Nelson)
Subject: Cheers origin

I believe Vint Cerf of DARPA started using "cheers" about 8 or 9 years
ago. I may be responsible for "regards" and "best regards".

------------------------------

Date: 30 July 1980 1614-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject: Regarding the food scene in 2001

It would seem to me that in packaging food for space, that a
collapsible container is desirable to keep a smooth supply of food
to the straw. Given a tupperware like container, one can not assume
that putting the straw to the bottom of the container will reach
food, as any airspace within would as likely be there. It would also,
though, be desirable to have the container give some resistance to the
collapsing, or else once the user starts sucking food out, it could
continue in a stream that could well prove to be hazardous and messy.
It is, I believe, this resistance at work, and not gravity, that we
see at work in the food scene. (Heinlein's Podykane (sp?) of Mars
gives a good description of the problems of free floating food,
and the potential danger of infantile regurgitation at zero-g)

------------------------------

Date:  30 July 1980 20:19 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  predictions and SF

Jules Verne predicted the Ocean Liner movie, now the Airport movie.
You could even use the modern conventions to pick out who is going
to get it.

------------------------------

Date: 30 July 1980 2258-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Commuting to work

A VP of our local bank observed that the real issue is controlling
information flow.  Since the bank is located in an older downtown
office building, they were having severe space problems for new
personnel; there was no room to expand.  Then the high-level
management discovered that if you give them terminals, you can
move the operation to a suburban building which is cheaper, more
desirable for the employees, and, more importantly, /available/.
With the realization that one does not need physical presence to
adequately supervise work, they have been able to substantially
expand departments which they formerly had restricted in size.
The increase in overall productivity by having /enough/ people
to do the work, rather than a few overworked people, has also
been a revelation.  Of course, the managers in those departments
probably still believe that their employees have to be physically
present, but when an institution like a bank can make such a
fundamental decision at such a high level, it will not take
long before the next level down makes the same discovery.

By the way, if you want a fun b.s. session, think of how a bank
would have to protect its information if people /really/ were
working from home! Especially if one has read/WRITE access to
a financial database! I know of very few stories in which much
attention is paid to the security problem in large multiaccess
databases; for example, in most of Mack Reynolds' stories,
an "access code" is required to obtain details of a person's
dossier.  It might be fun to list a few and explore the
feasibility/credibility/absurdity of the portrayed multiaccess
model. If anyone cares to start a discussion of this, I'll
scratch my head a bit and come up with some titles. 
                                joe

------------------------------

Date: 30 JUL 1980 1052-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Queries by Dave Rossien about Dragon's Egg

     Random House/Ballantine/Del Rey printed 7500 copies of Dragon's
Egg, which according to C. Brown of Locus was a relatively large
printing for a hardcover SF by a first author.  Most bookstores only
stock paperbacks in SF, unless the author is well known, which I am
not, so you will probably have to have them special order DE unless
it is a store that specializes in SF, like the "Change of Hobbit" in
Westwood, CA.

     Pierre's book is a three volume set, one on the physics of the
star, one on the facts of the expedition, and a third which is a
fictionalized history of the cheela, and has chapters in it that go
Prologue, Pulsar, Volcano, God, Trek, Contact, and Interaction.  One
volume won the Nobel, another the Pulitzer, etc. (At least it SOUNDS
plausible.)

     The speed of sound in neutron star material is close to the speed
of light because the crust is so rigid. The P and S waves in tne earth
crust travel at different speeds, so I presume long and short talk
will too, but the exact speed depends upon your model for the material
in the crust.

       Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1980 at 0120-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^ RATINGS & HEINLEIN'S "NUMBER OF THE BEAST" ^^^^^^^^^^^

Count another ANTI vote on the SF-rating proposal.  For one thing,
it would be 'work`, adapting to some scale, and SF-L is for fun.
For another, a rating scale would be unworkable in the flux of the
SF-L situation with correspondents coming and going all the time.
Moreover, a single rating scale, like a bare PG on a movie, doesn't
tell enough to be really useful.

A case in point: I've just finished Heinlein's THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST
and thoroughly enjoyed it hour after hour. I think most SF-L readers
would (tho not Kolling). But it's n-o-t a GOOD book. The structure is
whomperjawed. He starts out with an aliens-after-the-good-guys story,
shifts to emphasis on the socio-psychology of leadership, lapses into
an addendum to TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, and ends up with The Ultimate Con
as a l'envoi. The last two are largely irrelevant, the first gets lost
somewhere along the way, and the 2nd eventually lapses. TIME ENOUGH
FOR LOVE was episodic, but it maintained adequate cohesion in its
focus on and thru Lazarus Long. For most of the book, BEAST...shifts
focus around among the 4 main protagonists with each chapter, then
jumps to Lazarus, and then ends up with nobody in particular.

It was the kind of book one romps thru with gusto, and then when done
starts thinking, "But... but... but...".  No simple, single rating
scale can handle that. (Gil Gyer's scoring, if you're familiar with
what is probably the most ambitious SF rating project extant, it is
workable because he is seemingly more concerned with how well one
enjoyed a book than with its "merit".)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1980 10:14 PDT
From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "The Number of the Beast"

What can you say about Robert Heinlein?  As one of SF's "Grand
Old Men", he commands an awful lot of respect, especially when you
re-read some of his older, highly imaginative and prophetic works.

But "The Number of the Beast", alas, doesn't measure up.  If you've
been keeping up with Heinlein in his post-"Stranger in a Strange Land"
period, you probably know what to expect from his latest novel. More
of the same, ala "I Will Fear No Evil" and "Time Enough for Love",
over and over and over and over again.  Let me say right off that I
liked all of those books, but I was hoping Heinlein would come up
with something new this time around.

Briefly, the story concerns "a mad scientist and his beautiful
daughter" who have a "time machine" in their basement and use it
to explore amongst the universes with their respective spouses.
Needless to say, if you know recent Heinlein, the heroes are
canonically heroic, the women are beautiful, the computers are
cutesy, the villians are nasty, and EVERYBODY is incredibly
oversexed.

This book marks a new high in self-indulgence for Heinlein, as you
will see if you get past the first half of the story. I borrowed the
trade paperback from a friend (the artwork isn't bad) and I'm glad I
was able to read it for free.

-- Bob <Weissman @ Parc-Maxc>

------------------------------

Date: 30 JUL 1980 1321-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Vinge

  Actually, Joan Vinge married her editor (Jim Frenkel of Dell)
last month; I think she'd been separated 3 years or so (and I wonder
whether a factor in the breach was that she was a much better writer
than he was even then).

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/31/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 31 July 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Luke's Hand

On the use of light sabers as a surgical tool:

  Ref VAD@MIT-AI's question about Luke losing so little blood when he
  lost his hand: the amount of blood lost depends on what happens to
  the ends of the blood vessels as a result of the wound.
                                       -- Karen <Kolling at PARC-MAXC>

the majority opinion seems to be:

  Let us note that the light sabers are probably quite hot, and
  thus would quite neatly cauterize such an amputation.  Lasers,
  for instance, have been used to seal bleeding capilaries through
  the lenses of a patient's eye.           -- <Warren.Wake at CMU-10D>

  Yeah, it did look strange for there to be no blood around when Vader
  chopped off Luke's hand.  There was certainly gore in evidence when
  Obi-Wan and Luke sliced off critters' arms!  Regrettably, however,
  there IS a way for this discrepancy to be weasled out of. Those
  gory slashes were not done with Vader's particular light-saber.
  His, as the blackened stubs of the 3 posts he slashed on the gantry
  catwalk (see last month's TESB commercialized poster issue) show,
  is h-o-t. It cauterized the wrist as it cut off the hand. (~sigh~)
  I still haven't been able to spot an honest-to-Gawd blooper in SW5
  unless the odd lack of tauntaun tracks counts.   -- <HJJH at UTEXAS>

and was also mentioned by the following people:

  JHENDLER at BBNA, Drew Powles <DPowles at BBN-UNIX>, and
  David Rossien <ROSSID at WHARTON>
 
On the other hand:

    I assumed mental tourniquets were a simple matter for those with
  the Force. It's not much different than bio-control feats done by
  present-day Earth yoga masters.
    As for the Luke-as-droid hypothesis, a technology capable both of
  creating droids as psychologically human-like as C3PO and prosthetic
  arms as realistic as Luke's might be capable of combining the two
  and making droids which appear human until you cut them open (though
  I'd expect artificial mouths to provide more technological diffi-
  culties than hands). It would almost certainly be illegal, since the
  law apparently distinguishes between the two types of beings (among
  other things, we've seen that droids can be sold, but there is no
  evidence of human slavery), so droids should be recognizable as
  such. Human-looking droids would undoubtably be much more expensive
  to make, also. But the underworld, and possibly the underground,
  would probably not miss the advantages of disguising an almost
  infinitely fixable droid as an ordinary mortal. Still, I seriously
  doubt that Lucas chose to follow up on this interesting implication
  of his fantasy-world's technology in any way at all, let alone in
  Luke.  I won't swear by Luke's humanity, though, until I see what
  happens when he is beheaded.           -- Teri <Pettit at PARC-MAXC>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 AUG 1980 0601-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #32
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 1 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 32

Today's Topics: Costume Query, Physics Tomorrow - Ringworld Dynamics,
                SF Books - Jeppson's Second Experiment/Last Immortal
                   & The Number of the Beast & Dragon's Egg, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  31 July 1980 19:48 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Information request for costumes.

     A friend is producing a costume workshop for the Worldcon. To
help this out, we are looking for books that could be used as setting
for costumes. The best choices would be those that meet all of these
criteria:

  - have enough scope that creation of new characters/costumes
    is reasonable
  - contain major female characters, so that the creation of
    new female characters is also reasonable
  - is well known, but not a cliche, and
  - is set in a climate such that its costumes are wearable
    in Boston in September, i.e. hot and humid.

     Please reply to me directly, and I will summarize the replies
and feed them back.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1980 1134-PDT
From: KATZ at USC-ISIF
Subject: Ringworld unstable??

I have heard that a Niven Ringworld would be unstable.  Does anyone
know of a proof of this fact?  I am looking for either a reference
or an outline of a proof, not a hand waving argument.

                        Alan

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 07/28/80 18:21:01 Re: Completely random review

Just a warning.  Some of you may in your travels encounter a couple
of novels by J. O. Jeppson, to wit "The Second Experiment" and "The
Last Immortal".

                        AVOID AT ALL COSTS!!!!

Worse garbage I have rarely seen in hardcover.  Perhaps they are
simply refugees from the children's section, but they weren't in
large print and the blurbs gave no clue to the requisite MA (Mental
Age). 

I can't really explain why I read the second book. Perhaps I thought
the author would do better next time, or develop some substance to
the framework, or something.  Optimistic jerk, that's me.

In fact, I couldn't even understand why the publishers let them slip
past.  At least not until I took a closer look at the back jacket
blurb of the second book, wherein it claims that JOJ is hitched to
the worthy Isaac Asimov.  Ah so.  SIGH......

On second thought, perhaps the idea is to emulate "Plan 9" and reap
in the receipts of notoriety? Naw, it's not funny enough; my vote for
"worst SF novel" is already committed to Simak's "Cosmic Engineers".
JOJ should place well, though.

--Ken

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1980 1159-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: Heinlein

Another problem with Heinlein's writing, and the reason that I refuse
to read him anymore is that he is *incredibly* sexist.

-Spencer

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 07/31/80 18:01:09

I could not agree more with Bob Weissman's criticism of Heinlein's
"The Number Of The Beast".  This is self-indulgance at its worst.  I
was unable to finish the book.  I recommend that you don't waste your
time trying.

------------------------------

OTA@MIT-MC 07/31/80 01:41:03
Re: Review of Heinleins "The number of the Beast"

I have been meaning to send in a review of Heinleins new book for a
while now so here goes.

I have read the British version which came out in hardback a month
or two ago. I have seen plenty of copies of the american trade paper
back version at the (non) local bookstore so I guess it is out for
real now. The American version was appearently edited down by on the
order of 100 pages.  This is widely considered not to be much of a
loss.

The book, in a word, is "uncontrolled".  Basically Heinlein didn't
exercise much control at all about what he wrote.  There is a story
line.  There is characterization.  There is adventure.  But there are
also long diatribes about such varied topics as: womens rights, wifely
duties, husbandly duties, responsibilities of a military commander and
the like.  The same themes and points of view as come out in most of
his books particularly "Time Enough for Love".

As for you fans of books that reference other books this one has
it in spades. It is partly contrived like as though he heard this
discussion on SF lovers and decided to write a book that would
reference lots of other SF books.

On the whole I enjoyed it but several friends of mine did not
finish it, perhaps I'm incurable but there are presumably quite
a few incurable Heinlein fans out there so I'm not alone.

[ Don't even imagine that RAH has heard about SF-LOVERS.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1980 at 2122-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ HEINLEIN'S "...BEAST" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Would I recommend buying it?  Not unless you do so expecting nothing
more for your money than a few hours of amusing reading.  It \IS/
amusing... lots of puns, and F-U-L-L of SF-self-references such as
have been appearing in SF-L recently.  Ardent SF'ers would have a
ball with the book, just finding and figuring those out.

One has SF-L relevance, and can be shared without spoiling the
story. Lazarus has an SF con, The Ultimate Con, attended by fictional
characters as well as real people.  As he discusses the participants
he says--

 "It turns out that the degree of doctor is so common on that list
  of my special guests as not to be worth noting.  Listen to this:
    'Asimov, Benford, Biggle, Bone, Broxon, Cargraves, Challenger,
    Chater, Coupling, Coster, Dorosin, Douglas, Doyle, Dula, Forward,
    Fu, Giblett, Gunn, Harshaw, Hartwell, Haycock, Hedrick, Hoyle,
    Kondo, Latham, MacRae, Martin, Mott, Nourse, Oberhelman, Passovoy,
    Pinero, Pournelle, Prehoda, Richardson, Rothman, Sagan, Scortia,
    Schmidt, Sheffield, Slaughter, Smith, Stone-- Hazel and Edith
    --Taine, Watson, Williamson-- there are more; that's just the
    add-on printout.'

........

<Nit: In the quote from "my colleague Sam" (Clemens), mis-spelling
      'attar of roses' louses up the pun.>

Numerically, at least, the British edition has 50 more pages.  Does
anyone know if it actually has more text?

------------------------------

Date: 31 JUL 1980 1128-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Availability of Dragon's Egg

I got a message from:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics

   I went to several bookstores, they couldn't find DE in Books In
   Print.  Whatever is needed to order it.  Perhaps SFL would like
   to get this info.

     I talked to my local bookseller, who runs a small one-person
operation here in Malibu.  He said that DE would not be in the
1979-1980 Books in Print, since it was issued in late May and
missed the last edition of BiP.  However, he subscribes to the
Ingram microfieche service and he easily looked it up there under
Random House, Dragon's Egg and Forward, R.L. I guess is just
depends on how good the bookstore is.

     If the bookstore can't or won't get it for you, you can order
it direct from Random House/Ballantine for $9.95 + $1.00 shipping.

     Ballantine Books
     Dept. AL
     201 East 50th Street
     New York, New York 10022

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1980 0903-PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Availability of Dragon's Egg

     At least one sf bookstore around here (Science Fiction - Fantasy
on El Camino in Palo Alto) had two copies of Dragon's Egg, last I saw.
I bought my copy at B. Dalton, which is decidedly not a specialized
science fiction store.  Is there a weighting factor in the
distribution across the country, maybe?

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 30 July 1980 2034-EDT (Wednesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: Dragon's Egg.

Several msgs recently (last week or two) seem to hint that you-ens
on the west coast are having problems finding Dragon's Egg. Here in
Pittsburgh I have run across it in every book store I have been in
(most of them had 3 or 4 copies, that I could see) but I think the
price of HardBack books these days is becoming prohibitive, for I
will NOT fork out that much money for a hardback (I will either wait
for the paper back or the Science Fiction Book Club to carry it.) I
also have seen a couple copies of 'The Wounded Land,' the new Thomas
Covenant story...
                                Doug

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 07/31/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1980 at 2036-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MORE ON BLOODLESS DE-HANDING ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Recall the color difference between Luke's and Obi-Wan's sabers vs.
Vader's?  If instead of thinking of them as red-hot vs. white-hot,
we use the more common color associations of red=hot, white/blue=
cool, that supplies the rationale for Vader's saber cauterizing
but the others merely slashing.

------------------------------

Date: 30 July 1980
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Luke's Fall 

It also seemed to me that the shaft itself bent at the bottom.  But
if Luke was indeed falling in a "hook" trajectory, you can always
attribute that to the Force too, a very convenient catch-all for all
sorts of plot implausibilities.

------------------------------

Date: 30 JUL 1980 1328-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: garbarge chute; carbonite controls

  It was my impression that the chute actually leveled out after the
initial vertical drop, and that Luke fell through a trap in the bottom
of a cylinder with its axis horizontal -- certainly he wasn't in the
middle of the city when he fell through that last door.

  I've heard several people arguing about whether Lando was gimmicking
the carbonite controls, and the conclusion seems to be that he was
simply taking a reading.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980 at 1010-PDT
From: chesley at sri-unix
Subject: The Other Hope

     I think I've got The Other Hope figured out: it's Darth Vader.  I
expect Darth will eventually kill Luke and rape Leia, only to discover
that due to a time warp they're really his parents.  He'll be so upset
over this that he'll kill himself.  It would be just like Lucas to
make a recursive Oedipus complex.
     One question: if Yoda's such a great Jedi master, why doesn't he
just go kill Vader himself?
     And on the subject of unnoticed subtleties, if you take all
the "magic" numbers mentioned here, in the order they appear in the
various movies and books, they form a Godel number which when decoded
tells who really killed J.R.

        --Harry...

[ For some possible answers to why Yoda "doesn't just go kill Vader
  himself", see Steve Lawrence's message in [SFL V2 #6].  --  RDD  ]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980 1309-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: Politics

In regard to Jeff's (DP@MIT-ML) comment in [SFL V1 #132] (5/28/80)
that, at DISCLAVE, "there were enough nominations to get Darth Vader
on the Virginia Presidential Ballot (but there would be some question
as to party...)' --- It seems obvious to me that Darth Vader should be
the Favorite Son from New York State (the EMPIRE State...)  hee hee
hee ....(scuttle off into the darkness)....

Will Martin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 AUG 1980 0541-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #33
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 2 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:       Future - Prediction, SF Bloopers - 2001,
                  SF Books - Mythconception & Dragon's Egg & Beast,
               What happens at a Con?, TESB, Spoiler - All You Zombies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  1 August 1980 22:24 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  rocket probe hits time warp [ see SFL V2 #26,29 ]

I don't think the 1930's is far back enough.  People saw it fly so
it obviously was capable of it.  Quick calculations will show that
it must have been launched somehow.  Remember the V-1 was not that
far beyond technology then and it was more or less a low speed
ramjet.  Lenses imply optics and television research at that point
would prevent ruling out that this device was electronically
controlled and had some kind of television camera in it albeit a
peculiar one.  The wiring, it's still wiring. I imagine they might
lose an IC or two before they get the hang of how to cut them open
and study them under the old phase contrast microscope.  It is
harder for me to figure out what they would make of the microwave
components of the radar system but remember those people would
still be alive today.  They would probably guess that the device
was military in nature, even if they didn't read the labels on it.
If it landed in the U.S. the British Intelligence would have had a
chance to help going over it, Ian Fleming always like gadgets, and
they would have probably spent a good deal of time trying to figure
out how the Nazi's had built it and from where in Latin America it
was launched. The labels in English might cause someone to wonder
if the device was in some way anachronistic but time warp physics
was still pretty far away; they were still guessing about quantum
electrodynamics.

Now if it had landed in Ancient Rome the reaction might have been a
bit different.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 1980 18:01:35-PDT
From: Phil Karn via CSVAX.UUCP at BERKELEY
Subject: More technical goofs in 2001

Here's yet another technical goof in 2001 that I don't think anybody
has noticed yet.

Remember the meeting in the conference room at Clavius?  No one seems
to have any trouble walking around the room.  Think what would happen
if you tried to walk normally in a room where the gravity is 1/6 G.
Your head would be hitting the ceiling.

Of course, maybe the room was in a conically shaped centrifuge so
that the moon's gravity plus the centrifugal force would give 1G, but
considering 2001's detailed showing of every other artificial gravity
scheme, I doubt it.

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1980 2104-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: humor

For those of you who don't know it, the sequel to "Another Fine Myth"
will be called "Mythconception".  It has been "about to come out,
probably next month" for about a year now, so I'm not holding my
breath, but I ask every time I visit any decent sf shop (the answer
has been constant since last March, actually, so it is more than a
year now).
				joe

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1980 1551-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Availability of Dragon's Egg

I just chatted with the owner of Future Fantasy (SF bookstore just
off the Stanford campus). It seems that they only ordered a handful
of copies (first time author syndrome), and have been trying to get
more.  But there seems to be a decided time lag.  It is also highly
possible that since Bob is a first time author, the major bookstore
chains initially ordered NO copies of the book. At least that appears
to be the case in this part of the Bay Area (based on my own random
sampling).

Given the lack of a track record, I am actually NOT surprised that DE
is not all over the place. As a matter of fact, I am a little shocked
that some major book chains would order copies INITIALLY from the
publisher.  That looks unusual to me.

Jim

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 08/01/80 07:54:04 Re:  R.A.Heinlein

Come on folks.  If I hadn't gotten hooked on Heinlein's books as a
youngster, I wouldn't be here right now (whether that is good or bad
is a different story).  R.A.H. has written some pretty fair books
in his life. I don't think that "Number of the Beast" deserves the
vehement put-down I have seen in this medium.

I agree with most of the criticisms, but I don't agree that it is
in the same category as "I Will Fear No Evil".  IWFNE was written
when RAH was having problems mentally (the problems were physically
induced).  "...Beast" does not (to me) have the same flavor.  It
looks like Heinlein was having a bit of fun with his readers.

As for him being sexist, I'm not too sure that is true.  Let me point
out that there are indeed physical differences between men and women.
These differences do lead to biases in the area of familial duties.
As for his characters being oversexed, I don't agree.  I have been
known to enjoy extended periods of sexual activity and noone has
branded me "oversexed" (come on now, it's not that funny).

Let's not use too broad a brush to paint this book "BAD". I agree,
it's not his best, but I did enjoy it.  If you are looking for
something really bad, read Murry Leinster's (SP?) "Pirates of Zan".
It is so bad, it is hilarious.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

DP@MIT-ML 07/23/80 00:42:02 Re: CONventional topics

Warning: This article is quite SMOFish, Roscoe has determined
         that SMOFing may be hazardous to your ego.

Balticon: 

GOH: John Varley                        Hotel: Hunt Valley (the usual)
Rooms: $32. gets you 4 keys.            Flyer: available in October
     (none of this nonsense about number of people in the room.)

   Baltimore has had problems with townies showing up to get drunk,
and make general nuisances of themselves. They are considering not
having bheer in the con suite. This should make the obnoxious go away.
For the realfen there will be an alternate suite sponsored by the
Baltimore in 83 bid. It will be semi-private, admission to reasonable
people and/or members of Denvention. (the con where the bid voting
takes place)

Con report.

Unicon.... Silver Spring, MD. It was held in a Sheraton designed to
accommodate lots of small non-connected meetings.  The hotel was
also designed to be located in Alaska, with no sundeck, and air
conditioning that lost when the parties started to fill up. As is
traditional for a con hotel the elevator's and ice machines were
not up to the load. It was 4 blocks from the Metro so it had a few
redeeming points.

  We left at 11 pm Thursday with me, RMS [Richard Stallman], a neo,
and one of Boston's few Marklander's [The Markland Medieval Mercenary
Militia].  The trip was rather uneventful, we spent 1 hour lost in
Baltimore, trying to find breakfast, arriving at about 8:30 AM.  I
checked in, (single, $44, yetch...) the four of us went up, and
crashed until around 1.  We took the subway into the city and spent
the afternoon at the Museum of History and Technology.  We returned
about six, and I set up my huckster table. sold very little and the
room closed at 9. (Despite what it said in the program book.)  Two
other huckster's took me up on my offer of crash space, making it 6
to the single.
  I put 10 hymnals in my pack, (I sell them) and set off to find
Filthy Pierre and start a filksing.  I found him, we set up in
the hall, and filked from 10 till about 1 AM.  I wandered around
partyhopping, till the shaved gorilla in the double knit suit told
us at 3:30 to get to a room or leave the hotel. Explanations about
dawn as the time for good parties to end were not understood. The
idiot then began to drop hints about police (to a guest !!). Since
I had to be at my table at nine if I was to afford the convention,
I did not take him up on his offer.

  On Saturday I was up at the incredible hour of 9 am to go deal and
spent the day at my table trying to sell stuff and SMOFing with Scott
Dennis, a very political Baltimore fan. Saturday night dinner in a
giant group, and then the closed Baltimore party/Moose's (Robert
Lovel) 33 1/3 birthday party. This was going well, when some of the
twits discovered that the breaker boxes weren't locked. The party was
in one of the rooms blacked out. 20 min later, when the hotel turned
things back on, we decided the light hurt, and turned them back off.

  Thing's were starting get friendly at the party, when Scott walked
in and informed us that someone had thrown a dud smoke bomb into an
elevator. 5 of us left to go walk halls. We closed the Con suite, and
cleared some of the halls (our orignial (pre smoke bomb) plan was to
have a 4 am SMOF in to protest to the double knit gorilla.)

  Things were calming down, I was waiting on the 8'th floor for an
elevator to return to the party, when I saw some femfan (femtwit?)
pull the fire alarm at the other end of the hall.  She ducked down
the stairs, passing one of the others who was coming up to investigate
on the 6'th floor stairway. this was at 4:30 am. the fire department
arrived and spent 3/4'ths of an hour trying to shut the alarm off.
They had to enter the hotel engineer's office with an axe. They shut
thing's off (including the two alarmed roof doors) and I got to sleep
at 6:30 - 7:00.
  Up again at 9:30, I ran the table till noon. We were to leave then
but one of the people in the car was missing. They were off saying
goodbye to the member of opposite that they had met at the con. They
showed up about an hour later and we went off to find some steamed
crabs.

  We finally left Washington at 4:30 for the 10 hour drive north.
Things went well until we hit the Tappan zee bridge. 14 cars were
stalled at about 1/4 mile intervals.  We did the obvious, we filked.
The reaction of the cars around us was good. As we approached the toll
booth, we sang "My God How The Money Roll's In" with people in 5 cars
joining in the chorus. Arrived home at 2 AM 8 pounds lighter from tne
heat (it was in the 90's all the time)

--- Jeff DP

------------------------------

JBARRE@MIT-AI 08/02/80 00:50:32

In Friday's comics, John Darling was interviewing George Lucas about
his upcoming basebal movie. It's name?

                      "The Umpire Strikes Back"

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/02/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It invites
discussion of the ending of Heinlein's short story "All You Zombies".
People who have not read this story may not wish to read any further,
especially since it is the ending that gives the story its power.

People who would like to read this story may find it in the Heinlein
collection, 6 X H, and also in the more recent hardcover collection,
The Arbor House Treasury of Modern Science Fiction (compiled by
Robert Silverberg and Martin H. Greenberg).


------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1980 10:39 PDT
From: Shipper.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "...All You Zombies..."

I just read "zombies" after seeing its title in SF-LOVERS a number of
times. I think I understood what the ending is supposed to imply, that
the "zombies" were all of the narrator's other selves that he "had"
encountered in time.  Also, I was not sure how the Mistake of 72 fit
in. If anybody disagrees with me and/or has their own interpretation
of this (too hip) story, I would appreciate your thoughts.

/Steve.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 AUG 1980 0339-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #34
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 3 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 34

          Today's Topics: Bibliography Queries and Responses
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1980 at 1110-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: Books on networks

     I was just going to mention the new release "Web of Angels", by
John M. Ford, when someone reviewed it in SF-LOVERS even before I'd
finished it.  I went off and thought for awhile, and then decided to
ask what other books have been written which were a) based on computer
technology; b) not outrageously incorrect; and c) based mainly on
HUMAN characters, not cardboard cut-outs.  The only three books or
novellas I can think of that satisfy all of these criteria are "The
Shockwave Rider", by John Brunner, "Fireship", by Joan D. Vinge, and
now, "Web of Angels", by John M. Ford.  The last is not up to the
first two but is certainly a VERY impressive first showing.

     Note that "When Harlie Was One" is not included since by my
lights it violates both (b) and (c). "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
violates (b), somewhat.

[ Please note that this is a much more restricted query than
  the earlier Computers in SF bibliography query.  --  RDD   ]

------------------------------

Date: 3 August 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Responses on Words / Blurbs / SF Comedy & Parody
                           /  Cats  /  Environment

Invented Words in SF:
---------------------

  I first encountered "TANSTAAFL" in Heinlein's "The Moon is a
  Harsh Mistress" --- I don't know if he invented it or not, but
  it certainly is part of the common vocabulary of a large number
  of computer scientists of wide acquaintance.
                                      -- joe <Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A>

  Brunner's STAND ON ZANZIBAR has so \many/ inventions in it that the
  words stand out less than they might (also because of the sheer size
  of the book).  THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER seems to have at least as much
  new vocabulary, much of it strongly visual (sanding, deevee'd,
  veephone, bayquake [previously mentioned] and so on).
                                 --  Chip Hitchcock <HITCHCOCK at CCA>


SF Blurbs:
----------

  I seemed to recall that the blurb on the back of "Star Smashers of
  the Galaxy Rangers" mentioned a "crusty old pop" who never appeared
  in the story.                              -- <Lee.Moore at CMU-10A>


SF Comedy & Parody:
-------------------

PROSTHO PLUS by Piers Anthony (novel)
  (rating: 8, but not if taken seriously)

  In which a "conservative, successful twentieth-century bachelor
  prosthodontist" gets kidnapped by an alien who needs some dental
  work, and continues on to treat some pretty bizarre mouths. Lotsa
  fun, esp. at the planet-sized University of Dentistry. Anyone who
  ever had braces should love this.                -- <LEOR at MIT-MC>

"Author, Author!" by Isaac Asimov (short story)
  available in THE EARLY ASIMOV (collection)

  When I think of humorous Sci-Fi, Asimovs "Author, Author!" comes to
  mind.  I thought it was really funny.             --  <DR at MIT-MC>

BUY JUPITER AND OTHER STORIES by Isaac Asimov (collection)

  For humorous SF I prefer anything by Lafferty, most of Laumer, and
  some Asimov, notably Asimov's short story collection "Buy Jupiter".
                                  -- Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>

"Shah Guido G." by Isaac Asimov (short story)
  available in BUY JUPITER AND OTHER STORIES (collection)

  How about Shah Guido G., by Asimov? I can't remember what the story
  was about, just the title (for some strange reason).
                                                    -- <SLH at MIT-AI>

"The Holmes-Ginsbook Device" by Isaac Asimov (short story)
  available in OPUS 100 (collection)

  This is the last story in OPUS 100 by Asimov. It is a parody of THE
  DOUBLE HELIX by James Watson. This book explains how scientists are
  simple souls, desiring only women, fame and wealth, in that order.
                                           -- Bruce <Israel at MIT-AI>

"What Mad Universe" by Frederic Brown (short story)

  Frederic Brown's "What Mad Universe", one of the best parallel-world
  stories around.            --  Michael Urban <Mike at UCLA-SECURITY>

  [ Also mentioned by JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>.  --  RDD ]

THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT,
THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S REVENGE,
THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD,
THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT WANTS YOU
  by Harry Harrison (series)

  A good collection of funny novels is Harry Harrison's Stainless
  Steel Rat series. They are parody in the sense that they include
  everything that anyone has complained about in SF: Paper-thin
  characters, stories centered around action and plot, instead of
  theme and character development, ridiculously absurd shifts in
  plot, unreasonable gadgetry pulled out of thin air to save the
  day... things of that nature. (Sort of like watching "The Wild,
  Wild, West.")                             -- Alan <Katz at USC-ISIF>


Cats in SF:
-----------

[ Here is (1) a condensation of the results of HJJH's and my recent
  request for books (other than by Andre Norton) featuring cat-like
  beings, and (2) some flaming about Heinlein:
                                    -- Karen <Kolling at PARC-MAXC>

  When reading the Heinlein commentary, please bear in mind that
  it was written BEFORE the TNotB reviews began to appear in SFL.
                                                         --  RDD  ]


THE STONE GOD AWAKENS by Philip Jose Farmer (novel)

  THE STONE GOD AWAKENS deals with a man who awakes in the distant
  future (having accidentally suspended himself in a petrified,
  stonelike state, hence the first part of the title) to find himself
  an idol for one of the dominant mutant species (human sized bipedal
  cats) (hence the rest of the title).   -- Matt Lecin <MJL at MIT-MC>

  [ KK: also mentioned by David Rossien <ROSSID at WHARTON>. ]

GODSFIRE by Cynthia Felice (novel) -- Haruka Takano <Haruka at SRI-KL>

The Known Space series by Larry Niven

  Any Larry Niven story with Kzinti in it.
                                     -- David A. Moon <MOON at MIT-MC>

  [KK: Kzinti were also mentioned by Dan Shapiro <DGSHAP at MIT-AI>]

THE DOOR INTO SUMMER by Robert A. Heinlein (novel)

  Probably the biggest role for a cat outside of Norton is in
  Heinlein's A DOOR INTO SUMMER --- the hero talks more to his
  cat than he does to the woman he ends up marrying.

  [   KK: That doesn't surprise me; Heinlein seems to hate all human
          females over the age of 12.
    HJJH: Sorry, Karen, but for a long time I've maintained that
          R.A.H.'s supposed anti-women stance is a base canard
          perpetrated unjustifiably by many loud-mouth Libbers in SF.
          (Finally Spider Robinson has come to R.A.H.'s defense about
          it in the latest issue of DESTINIES.)  How any fair-minded
          woman can read ROLLING STONES and yap at Heinlein is
          incomprehensible!
      KK: well, I got this idea all by myself, no input from anybody
          else. I base it on his prediliction for 12-14 year olds,
          the presence of a literally castrating female in which book
          I forget, plus, as I recall, Podkayne turning into a dummy 
          when she developed hips, etc., etc., etc.  ]

  Heinlein talks a lot about cats and his characters are usually
  sympathetic to them, but this story has a much bigger role than
  usual for them.
                                 --  Chip Hitchcock <HITCHCOCK at CCA>

  [ HJJH: TDIS was also mentioned by ISRAEL at MIT-AI,
          McJones at PARC-MAXC, and WESTFW at Wharton.
      KK: Pete from THE DOOR INTO SUMMER is HJJH's and
          my nominee for Best Fictional Cat Of All Time. ]

THE GREEN MILLENIUM by Fritz Lieber (novel)

  This novel involves cats as magical beings.
                                     -- David A. Moon <MOON at MIT-MC>

  In ...MILLENNIUM, something which everyone thinks is a cat isn't
  quite, but it behaves like one.
                                 --  Chip Hitchcock <HITCHCOCK at CCA>

"Space Time for Springers" by Fritz Leiber (short story)

  Only novels?  well, that rules out "Space Time for Springers", one
  of the all-time great cat stories in SF. [HJJH: Amen!]
                                 --  Chip Hitchcock <HITCHCOCK at CCA>

THE WANDERER by Fritz Leiber (novel)

  THE WANDERER has the aliens which eat the moon being feline
  derivatives.  Lousy book in my opinion, although redeeming
  qualities.                        --  Dan Shapiro <DGSHAP at MIT-AI>

DECISION AT DOONA by Anne McCaffrey (novel)
                               -- Haruka Takano <Haruka at SRI-KL>
                               -- Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>

THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (novel)

  Authors have theorized that because cats couldn't fall and land on
  their feet the way they are used to, that zero gee would confuse
  them. If I remember, Niven/Pournelle mention it in THE MOTE IN GOD'S
  EYE, and use ferrets instead of cats to catch mice/watchmakers.
                                  -- David Rossien <ROSSID at WHARTON>

"Tobermory" by Saki [H. H. Munro] (short story)

  "Tobermory" though not everyone would agree that it is science
  fiction.                           -- David A. Moon <MOON at MIT-MC>

THE UNIVERSE AGAINST HER by James Schmitz (novel)

  Though Tick-Tock isn't exactly a cat, it \is/ a feline creature.
                                   --  Bruce Israel <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>

THE GOBLIN RESERVATION by C. Simak (novel)

  THE GOBLIN RESERVATION has a sabertooth tiger as a major character,
  tho it is just a normal pet sabertoother.
                                    --  Dan Shapiro <DGSHAP at MIT-AI>

"The Game of Rat and Dragon" by Cordwainer Smith (short story)
  available in THE BEST OF CORDWAINER SMITH (collection)

  Cat lovers should read "The Game of Rat and Dragon", available in
  THE BEST OF CORDWAINER SMITH.  It is worth making an exception for
  this one.                       -- David Rossien <ROSSID at WHARTON>

NOSTRILIA by Cordwainer Smith [aka Dr. Paul Lindbarger] (novel)

  In NOSTRILIA the protagonist is given a cat/human form, and travels
  with a cat who has been mutated with human germ plasm (or was that
  vice versa).                    -- David Rossien <ROSSID at WHARTON>

SUPERNATURAL CATS by <author unknown> (novel)

  ...contains many short stories by many authors ranging from humorous
  to serious.  This was just so obviously the right book I had to
  ignore your "no short story, please" restriction.
               --  Peter J. Castagna <PC at MIT-MC> via <GZ at MIT-MC>


  SPECIAL EDITION by Charles DeVet has some pretty rough feline
  aliens. BODELIAN (sp?) WAY, author forgotten, has a spoiled feline
  alien major female character, as I vaguely recall.  (Neither are
  "nice kitties", such as you and I like.)       --  HJJH afterthought


[ P.S. from HJJH: Karen is NOT a "loud-mouth Libber", but
                  a \very/ nice lady (even if misled). ]


[ SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

  The following review is the last review in this digest. It discusses
  Ian Watson's THE EMBEDDING in response to the Effects of Special
  Environments query. People who have not read this novel may  not
  wish to read any further.  --  RDD ]


Effects of Special Environments:
--------------------------------

The Embedding by Ian Watson (novel)

  An interesting novel that deals (partly) with a group of children
  raised in a lab is "The Embedding" by Ian Watson.  The kids here
  are the subjects of an experiment in linguistics; they grow up
  hearing nothing but artificial languages. The title refers to one
  with (so far as I could make out) a completely recursive grammar.
  The experimenters move among the kids wearing masks that convert
  their speech to that under study by means of a computer, so the
  kids still had normal human contact. They all eventually go crazy,
  the kids because their normal mental processes have been warped
  and the scientists because of guilt.   --  <ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 AUG 1980 0443-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #35
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 4 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:   SF Books - RAH sexism and The Number of the Beast
                & Flying Sorcerers & Budrys Review, TESB - Play Ball!
                              Spoiler - All You Zombies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 03 AUG 1980 1212-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: sexist?

  I hate to restart a topic that everyone may have thought was safely
buried, but the conjunction of Heinlein, Spider Robinson, and THE
ROLLING STONES provides too provocative an opportunity for comment.

  THE ROLLING STONES happens to be a fascinating example of degener-
ation --- Grandma quit engineering because three less-competent men
were promoted over her, Mother is a competent but very womanly doctor,
and Daughter (what little we find out of her) is mostly hormones.  I
think it's also fair to say that TRS is the most liberal portrayal of
women that Heinlein has ever created. Granted, Heinlein is a hack who
wrote most of his famous material to well-defined audiences (THE STAR
BEAST, complete with tiresome mother and conniving female chum, might
have been written to order for BOY'S LIFE, but my copy doesn't mention
any serialization (means nothing, though; I have the Ace reissue and
they are among the worst at crediting prior publication) ). Not even
Anne McCaffrey, perhaps the most conservative serious female SF
writer, has a good word for Podkayne --- calls her "that unbelievable
minx".  As for JoAnn Eunice Smith --- when Laumer included a short
piece (in THE TIME TRAP) assuming that attitudes were the result of
biology, at least he made it \funny/.
  As for Spider Robinson --- well, both of the Robinsons are friends
and I value them, but Spider's literary judgment simply isn't of the
highest or most balanced (someone put it very neatly: "Spider worships
the ground Heinlein walks above.")  For a good example, see his vitri-
olic review of Nicholls' SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA in the latest
(well, latest but one by now) ANALOG; having read the sections he
bitches about, I'll grant that Disch may be over-praised but Heinlein
is not treated nearly as brutally as Spider claims. The author of the
RAH article is quite right that RAH has difficulties with sex (even
though he fills books with it).  Look at Time Enough to Screw Around:
a man bedding his mother is a classic fantasy; a man being tripped
into bed by his daughters is becoming a stock modern fantasy (the
"funny uncle" is a much smaller part of child molestation today than
the father after his daughter; there's even a substantial slice of the
porn market devoted to this appetite); and his claim that a woman is
at her most beautiful when she's 8-9 months pregnant is the result of
his own bile at never having had kids --- in this direction, strangely
enough, the closest author thematically (although both of them would
probably deny it furiously) is Spinrad, who has written several books
in which the leading woman is there mostly because she has a thing for
strong men's implements.

  Oh well, enough flaming (well, almost). Probably some of you
will consider this ridiculously puritanical of me, but I think
the strongest condemnation of NUMBER OF THE BEAST was the monstrous
advance paid for it. Most of us started reading SF because it offered
entertainment on a level completely removed from both the "literature"
beloved of schoolteachers and the sludge that winds up as popular
fiction; that Fawcett saw such a goldmine in this that they were
willing to advance $600,000 is an indicator of how far towards the
trivially marketable RAH has gone.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1980 0013-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: SF Comedy and Parody

Those who have mentioned "The Flying Sorcerers" may have missed
the point:  The story is on at least 3 levels:  the top level
as taken literally from the narrator's point of view (ie, belief
in magic, etc.  It is self-consistent at this level and better
than most magic-type stories I've seen.)  Then there is the level
where we "really" know what is going on, and we know Purple's
magic to be technology and Shugar's to be mostly biochemistry 
and some psychology and luck.  Then, and succeeding primarily 
because it's not necessary or obvious, the set of puns mostly on
SF writer's names, but also relating to various bits of history
of science and technology.  The only really terrible groaner is
Purple's real name.  The first time I read the book, I missed
most the fun.  It's definitely worth rereading.

------------------------------

Date:  3 Aug 1980 0342-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
      Don Woods <Don at SU-AI>
 
By Algis Budrys        (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

     A rich variety of science fiction is represented by our various
entries this time.  All but one are paperbacks, so what we have is
an inexpensive sampler for those who'd like to increase their
acquaintance with the breadth of the field.  Old buffs will also
recognize that most of the writers listed below are among the best
at doing the kind of thing they do.
     Roger Zelazny, for instance, has a deft, charming touch with
fantasy.  In the case of ''Changeling'' (Ace trade paperback, $6.95,
copiously and beautifully illustrated by Esteban Maroto), what we get
is science-fantasy: A 40,000-word compressed novel set in a universe
where magic long ago triumphed over technology.  It's a medieval,
rather stable culture, with the evil magicians destroyed, their
castles ruined, and all their dragons and trolls slumbering under a
good magician's spell. Well, you know that can't last, and it doesn't.
     Out of mercy, the principal black magician's infant son wasn't
killed after the climactic battle. Instead, he was taken away to an
alternate universe-our own time and place-and, to keep the mystical
balance, surreptitiously exchanged for the infant son of an engineer.
Adopted by a peasant family in the magical kingdom, the Earthly infant
soon grows into an inquisitive, energetic, tactless tinkerer with the
forbidden science.
     Only one desperate measure can save the world: the other
child-who has grown into a cafe folk balladeer with a mysterious
ability to hold an audience-must be brought back to fight him. I
will say no more; Zelazny knows how to do this sort of thing very,
very well.
     In ''Naked to the Stars,'' (Ace paperback, $1.95). Gordon Dickson
tells the story of Cal Truent, invalided spacewar veteran, who is put
into the Contact Corps.  The Corps is non-combatant.  More than that,
its members are present at the interplanetary battles while they are
taking place.  Their job is to make contact with the alien enemy,
shorten the war as much as possible, and as quickly as possible
establish relations on which a lasting peace can be founded. That's
a proposition met with suspicion and anger by almost everyone outside
the Corps. It might well take several additional centuries before any
such thing could be put into actual effect. But Dickson makes it seem
possible.
     ''Star Driver'' (Ballantine-Del Rey, $1.95), is by ''Lee
Correy,'' the fiction pseudonym of maverick engineer Harry Stine.
Stine is among the hard-headed technologists who sincerely feel the
Establishment is check-reining potential major lines of development
for politico-economic reasons.  His fictional presentation of the
case involves the invention of a reactionless-non-rocket-space drive
in the engineering labs of an old-line New England company.  NASA,
with its huge investment in conventional aerospace, might not welcome
it with open arms. More important: Will the company's own conservative
board of directors accept this piece of wild boat-rocking? At the very
least, a highly readable piece of rich fiction is one result.
     ''The Best of Destinies'' (Ace, $2.25), is itself a sampler
of the best selections from Ace editor James Baen's paperback
''magazine.''  ''Destinies,'' which appears on the racks every so
often with new fiction and illustrations by topflight contributors.
Among the collected authors are Zelazny, Joe Haldeman, Larry Niven,
Poul Anderson, Spider Robinson and Jerry Pournelle.  Nonfiction
pieces include essays by Charles Sheffield and Frederik Pohl, as
well as Harry Stine. Good stuff, much of it, wide-ranging and
thought-provoking.
     The late Tom Reamy was a highly original writer who might have
grown into a noteworthy figure in American letters. But before dying
in his 40s, Reamy produced some outstanding and award-winning science
fiction stories with an uncommon touch that readers of his posthumous
1979 novel, ''Blind Voices,'' will prize.  That short fiction-and an
outstanding introduction by Harlan Ellison-is now collected from major
magazine sources as ''San Diego Lightfoot Sue and Other Stories.''
It can be ordered in a beautifully made trade edition ($14.95, $25
slipcased) from Earthlight Publishers, 5539 Jackson, Kansas City, Mo.
64130, through your bookstore.
     We would also like to note the passing away of Dr. Joseph
Samachson of Oak Park, Ill., in June. He was an ornament to research
medicine and husband of critic Dorothy Samachson.  As ''William
Morrison,'' this gentle, brilliant man wrote some of the best short
science fiction of the early 1950s, a time when memorable work was
being done.

------------------------------

Date:  2 Aug 1980 at 1304-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: The Umpire

Regarding JBARRE's report on the comics [SFL V2 #33]:

     The Westercon art show had a rather good painting, titled "The
Umpire Strikes Back", with Yoda on the mound, DV at bat in ump's
outfit (since it was all black it was hard to see that anything had
changed), Chewie catching, and all the rest of our friends in the
bullpen.  The back of Yoda's uniform was a patch for "Yoda's Zen
Forceball Team".  You can imagine the path followed by the ball, as
shown by a dotted line.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/04/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss the ending of the Heinlein short story "All You Zombies".
People who have not read this story may not wish to read further,
since it is the ending that gives the story its power.


------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 08/02/80 07:35:42

Regarding the query about the meaning of the end of "All You Zombies",
here is what I have always assumed he meant.

No; read it again.  The line is something like "I know where I came
from; but where did all you zombies come from?"  He is addressing the
rest of the world.  It is a nice incongruity; the reader is initially
struck by the feeling that the character's origin is peculiar, and
then the character tells you that, in his opinion, *his* origin makes
perfect sense; it's the rest of the world that's peculiar.  The
zombies are everybody else *but* the various versions of himself.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1980 6:04 pm PDT (Sunday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: All You Zombies

One would think that Shipper hadn't actually read the ending at all.
I thought it was fairly clear: the "zombies" are everyone ELSE. The
narrator says that he (she?) knows where HE comes from, but doesn't
understand how all the OTHER people in the world came to be.

I have no thoughts on how the "Mistake of 72" fits in, except that
maybe it doesn't.  (I guess that would be a shame, but then again,
there do have to be SOME things in the story that aren't directly
associated with the narrator, or the story would lose all its punch.)

	-- Don.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 AUG 1980 0538-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #36
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Tuesday, 5 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:       SF Bloopers - Asimov & VE, Rating Books,
               SF Books - RAH and Sexism & NYT on SF & Final Countdown
               & Tolkien & Recursion, SF Movies - TESB & CE3K Revision
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1980 1933-EDT
From: Steve Lionel (via Paul Young <YOUNGP at DEC-2136>)
Subject: 1940's Radio Technology

Please forgive me if my submissions to SF-LOVERS seem a bit out of
date; I only get to see SF-LOVERS every two weeks and it can take
another two weeks to submit any contributions.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Venus Equilateral stories, even though the
technology (vacuum tubes) was obsolete. Many pre-semiconductor authors
filled their spaceships with the bright orange glow of filaments.
Isaac Asimov, in his autobiography, says that the name for his master
computer, Multivac, came from the mistaken assumption that Univac
(TM?) meant one-tube (Uni-Vac), so naturally, his computer had LOTS
of tubes, hence its name.  I dare anyone to say that Asimov hasn't
always been up on his science!

The last story in *The Complete Venus Equilateral* however, has at
least one serious flaw (other than the ones previously mentioned
in SF-LOVERS).  The son of Walt Franks, (who married Don Channing's
daughter), chides his father-in-law saying something like "Back in
your time, all you had were vacuum tubes. Today, we have transistors."
Assuming that Channing and Franks didn't wait several centuries before
having kids, the time frame for the series of stories HAS to encompass
the 1950-1960 era. Therefore, the only possible explanation is that
Venus Equilateral exists in a parallel universe where spaceships
wandered around the solar system in 1950.  Either that, or in that
alternate universe transistors weren't invented until sometime in
the 23rd century. Flaws aside, though, I still love the stories.

------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 08/02/80 03:51:41 Re: ratings

I'm not particularly adverse to digitized ratings accompanying
reviews...  after all, I know (as everyone should) that these ratings
will be totally SUBJECTIVE. That is, simply a terse statement of "how
much I liked it".  It does not CLAIM to be a Godel encryption of the
entire contents of the work, and shouldn't be interpreted as anything
other than the arbitrary value judgement it represents. Just because
there may not be any overwhelming reason TO have ratings doesn't imply
there SHOULDN'T be ratings. Let's try 'em.
        -leor

------------------------------

Date: 04 Aug 1980 1317-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject : RAH and Spider

The latest issue of 'Destinies' has 100 pages oof exerpts from RAH's
latest non-fiction work and a critical (of RAH haters) essay on RAH.
Although I do not agree with all his points, I feel that Spider puts
on a worthy defense of RAH.  I would even go so far as to say that
this essay is the best I've seen on the subject from a pro-RAH
prospective.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 08/04/80 1026-EDT
From: FOCUS at LL
Subject: Point of Information

The Sunday New York Times had reviews (see the NYT Book Review) of
the following books (with the reviewer's reaction):

       HAWK OF MAY, by Gillian Bradshaw           (high praise)
       LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE, by Silverberg        (poor)
       THE EXPERIMENT, by Richard Setlowe            (mixed)
       THE SNOW QUEEN, by John D, Vinge              (mixed)

The reviewer was Jack Sullivan.

------------------------------

Date: 2 August 1980 14:30-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: THE FINAL COUNTDOWN (the book)

THE FINAL COUNTDOWN written by Martin Caidin
  based on a story by Thomas Hunter, Peter Powell and David Ambrose.

  I have found it to be quite interesting.  I read it in one sitting.
  I had problems with the time paradox at the end. It did present an
  interesting thought or two about the powers of the military 1980
  versus 1941.  I look foward to the movie...for better or worse.

--Bill

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1980 1148-PDT (Thursday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: New/Old Tolkienia

From the Houghton Mifflin Fall 1980 announcements...

Unfinished Tales
J.R.R. Tolkien
Edited by Christopher Tolkien

   "Unfinished Tales" is for those who have not yet sufficiently
explored Middle-earth -- its languages, its legends, its politics,
and its kings.
   Here are narratives ranging in time from the Elder Days of
Middle-earth to the end of the War of the Rings and comprising such
various elements as Gandalf's lively account of how it was that he
came to send the Dwarves to the celebrated party at Bag-End.  The
book contains the only story that survived from the long ages of
Numenor before its downfall and all that is known of such matters
as the Five Wizards, the Palantiri, and the legend of Amroth.
   The collection has been edited by Christopher Tolkien, who
explains in his introduction the variety of treatments these
writings have demanded and has provided a commentary on each of the
tales. He has redrawn the map accompanying "The Lord of the Rings"
on a larger scale and with the addition of new features and names
and has reproduced the only map of Numenor J.R.R. Tolkien ever made.

CHRISTOPHER TOLKIEN has, like his father, taught at Oxford and now
devotes himself full time to editing the papers of J.R.R Tolkien.

October $15.00   Fiction   368 pp. 6x9   6 maps   ISBN 29917-9
 _____

Goshwowoboyoboyoboy.
      Mike

PS Anyone else out there seriously interested in Elvish Linguistics?
   This should be a minor goldmine.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1980 1309-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: Recursive SF

Whew! Over the past few weeks I have read ALL the SF-Lovers archives
and can now consider myself up-to-date and may make a comment or two.

Regarding the far-past discussion of "recursive SF": DAW published
(1974) a book by Gerard Klein, titled "The Overlords of War",
translated from the French by John Brunner. I'd rate it about 3-4 on
the just-discussed rating scale. This is very consciously recursive,
and the main character discusses and ruminates on the recursive
actions he performs, in looping back through time to guide himself
and do things to make the past come true, as it were.

------------------------------

Date: 08/04/80 1026-EDT
From: FOCUS at LL
Subject: .Yoda for V.P.?

There was a very humorous article in yesterday's New York Times
Magazine by Ellis Weiner entitled:

      "On the Campaign Stump with Yoda"

It has an interview with Yoda who is out campaigning for
vice-president as a part of John Anderson's ticket.

------------------------------

Date:  4 August 1980 20:02 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  JBARRE's report on the comics

     As usual, John Darling only has half of the story. Lucas' next
film is about a major symphony orchestra that, through a series of
events I won't go into here, find themselves playing in the World
Series.

     The title is "The Umpire Strikes Bach".

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 at 2306-CDT
From:  AMSLER at UTEXAS, HJJH at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE "SUPPRESSED" SW PHONO RECORD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A year ago (7/6/79), in THE [Comics] BUYER'S GUIDE (#294) was a half
page ad about a phonograph record by "The Rebel Force Band", with the
following information--

  Album title:  "Living in These Star Wars"
Songs include:  "A Respirator for Darth"
                "Don't Fall in Love with an Android"
                "The Ballad of Obi-Wan"
                "Leia"
                "Chewie the Rookie Wookie"
                     And Many More!

  Produced by: Bonwhit Records 
               under license from 20th Century Fox Film Corp.
        Price: $6.99 + $1.00 for shipping and handling

      Address:   Theta-Force Marketing
                 Dept. BG-1
                 1610 Argyle Ave.,
                 #102,
                 Hollywood, Ca  90028

In last month's BUYER'S GUIDE there was just a small ad--

   "20th Century-Fox does not want you to read this ad! The 'other'
    Star Wars record is still available but in limited quantities
    since 20th ordered its production stopped.  Find out more about
    this rare collector's item and why 20th doesn't want you to hear
    it.  SASE to: TFM, 1610 Argyle #102A, LA Calif. 90028"

Does anyone on SF-L know anything about the record or "TFM"?

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/05/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in the digest. It compares
the recently released, revised version of Close Encounters of the
Third Kind with the original version. People who have not seen either
version of the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 08/03/80 23:20:53
Re: CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE REVISED KIND

   Nano Review -- More or less better.

   The biggest faults in Speilberg's revision of CE3K are two - 
      First: the alien at the end doesn't give his little
             half-smile to Lacombe.
     Second: Speilberg still didn't have the guts to insert
             the original Disney version of "When you wish
             upon a Star."

     These glaring omissions aside, the revision is better for his
changes.  For the most part the story moves without interruption
toward the climax, without a few of the diversions of three years ago.
Gone are scenes of Roy Neary inside the power plant; gone are scenes
of the offial 'debunking' of UFO reports; gone is most of the comedy
surrounding Neary's wife and kids deserting him.
     Added are scenes where Lacombe visits a ship found high and
dry in Mongolia; added are scenes establishing Neary's love for
"Pinocchio" (ironic since the song still doesn't appear) ; added
is a highly emotional confrontation between Neary and his wife; and
added of course are some scenes of Neary seeing the *inside* of the
Mothership.

     Speilberg also made tens of minor revsions - little additions
and deletions and changes in the soundtrack which can for the moment
be skipped over.

     So what is the effect of the changes? The story moves forward
with better rhythm towards the meeting at the tower. The obession to
get there becomes more obvious and understandable. Thus , the story
is made even simpler - less mysterious. (Have you ever noticed what
an unusual plot this film has?  All there is is a tale of people
going to a single focal point for something to happen.)
     The payoff is nearly as strong as last time, but this is hard
to evaluate since the sense of wonder that comes with seeing for the
first time is now gone.  Neary's entrance *inside* the mothership is
pretty obviously new footage, but once the transition from old to new
has been made, the new stuff stands up pretty well. What we see inside
the ship is an extension of what we see on the outside: all sparkling
and pretty (and if I were a cynical type, looking like V'Ger from Star
Trek.). I really do miss seeing that alien smile.

   Can someone who is going to see CE3K for the first time please
   comment on what you thought of it. Nearly half the folks in the
   theatre seemed to be seeing it for the first time.  Curiously,
   the theatre was barely half-full (this being Sunday 7 pm) while
   the line for TESB was as long as ever!Granted, CE3K *is* being
   shown at 18 houses in Houston, but I would think that the lines
   would still be a little longer than they were...

And most importantly: yes, you can still see the little R2D2 model
hanging on the mothership. Check out the film for yourself: look
quickly!

     Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 AUG 1980 0500-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #37
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Wednesday, 6 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 37

   Today's Topics: SF TV - NBC Plans, SF Books - TANSTAAFL & TNoTB
                   & RAH and Sexism, TESB, SF Movies - CE3K Revised
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 05 Aug 1980 1953-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>

From the AP news wire:

NBC is planning to produce several hour long specials aimed at younger
audiances. Some may be of interest to SFLers.  Details below:

... The ''Project Peacock'' series will begin in January, and will
continue on an every-other-week basis through the year. Programs will
be broadcast weeknights at 8, and Sunday evenings at 7. The schedule
will include 20 specials.

    There are several programs in the series in various stages of
development, including:

    - ''Alice in Wonderland,'' a new two-hour adaptation of the Lewis
      Carroll classic, starring Miss Streep and produced by Papp, the
      Broadway entrepreneur.
    - ''The Electric Grandmother,'' a one-hour fantasy-drama adapted
      by science fiction writer Ray Bradbury from his own short story,
      ''I Sing the Body Electric.''
    - ''Ghost Story,'' an hour-long classic ghost story from Norman
      Lear, producer of ''All in the Family'' and other prominent
      series.

...

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 05 Aug 1980 0142-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: SF coinages: Tanstaafl  

I, too, first encountered "Tanstaafl" in "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress", and wondered for some time whether that was its
first appearance. Since then I have found earlier references; in
particular, Paul Dickson's "The Official Rules", a collection of
interdisciplinary laws, refers to it as "Crane's Law", crediting
it to Burton Crane in "The Sophisticated Investor" (Simon and
Schuster, 1959).  That predates "Mistress" by a good six years.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1980 0948-CDT
From: map at CCTC (Mike Padlipsky)
Subject: 666 and all that

Gee, based on the rash of stuff last week I assume somebody out there
might well be grateful to me if I were to offer to take the english
edition of "The Number of the Beast" off their hands for 25 cents on
the dollar...just to be sporting, though, I'd go as high as 50 cents
on the dollar if you pay postage.  First to send me name and US mail
addr, first to get my check and US mail addr. 

                                                  Cheers, MAP

P.S. Better cite price, too; us old RAHphiles tend to be pretty out
     of touch with the new reality.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Aug 1980 at 0234-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^ \MUST/ HEINLEIN BE FAIR GAME TO ANY ATTACK? ^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not particularly a Heinlein fan. I've probably read most of his
work, but there are only 3 of his books I've kept to enjoy reading 
again.  I've kept more than 3 of a LOT of other authors, such as 
Leinster, McCaffrey, Dickson, James White, and even Philip E. High.
Nor did I "cut my teeth" on RAH, so I've no sentimental associations
or long-standing loyalties. To me, he's just another SF-writer, tho
more competent than most.

The strongly emotional negativism RAH and his books engenders in
certain readers is strange. Now, what Spider Robinson worships, if
anything, is no concern of mine, but unlike the emotional attacks,
his article in DESTINIES struck me as a reasonable, straightforward
presentation of indeed familiar anti-RAH statements, each rebutted
by cogent evidence.  Read it for yourselves, and decide.

While I am in complete agreement with Chip that Spider's criticism of
the entry for Heinlein in Nicholls' SF ENCYCLOPEDIA is unwarranted, I
have not found any such error in the DESTINIES article.

From background arising out of my collection and study of SF books
with female protagonists, the accusation of Heinlein being "sexist"
seems more than strange.  If by this it is meant that R.A.H does not
subscribe to the theory of the equality of the sexes, then -- Yes,
he and Ashley Montague (anthropologist-author of the classic THE
NATURAL SUPERIORITY OF WOMEN) are a pair of them.  (And they make
any PRO-female position a lot more palatable than Joanna Russ'
bludgeonings in THE FEMALE MAN!)

As I read it, H's message that so galls Libbers is that a female has
a right to be womanly.  There is a regrettable strain of self-hate
underlying the sexism of virulent Libber-hood.

Chip's initial sentence about THE ROLLING STONES [SFL V2 #35]
doesn't make sense. Nothing he says about the 3 women exemplifies
degeneration.  His 2nd sentence seems a common ploy of anti-RAHers:
points of evidence counter to their position are dismissed as
exceptional.  But whether or not "TRS is the most liberal portrayal
of women that H. has ever created" is immaterial beside the fact that
he DID create it.  See \in particular/ H's portrayal of the attitudes
and behavior of Mr. and Mrs. Stone when there's an epidemic aboard the
space liner.  It IS exceptional!  But what's exceptional about it is
that this is in a juvenile, a juvenile written in 1 9 5 2 !!!

Hilda's role in ...BEAST has distinct parallels with Mrs. Stone's in
the epidemic segment.  Of the 4 central protagonists, she is the one
best equipped by experience and personality to be leader.  Her worst
trouble is from her husband.  In fact, insofar as that dreadfully
structured book has a main plot or central theme, it concerns the
problems of leadership.  (And if it weren't so badly structured, it
might have qualified as H's 2nd book with a female protagonist.)

But what about his FIRST such candidate, poor PODKAYNE, who is ever
advanced as a Horrible Example of H's portrayal of a female character?
As a specialist in SF books with female protagonists, I get darned
peeved at the ignorance this displays.  Sure, compared to the later
Lessa's and Rissa's, it might seem so, but is it fair to assay it out
of its temporal context?  If you except the "Golden Amazon" stories
from the pulps and a Utopian novel of 1880, PODKAYNE is the 10th genre
science-fictional book ever to have a female protagonist.  Now, there
are over a hundred.  Give the old gentleman credit for doing something
so daring in 1963.  And let sf-writers not look down on their literary
ancestors -- on whose shoulders they are standing.

The sexual mores of societies H depicts often repulse me, but so
do those of the Trobriand Islanders and some contemporary mating
patterns in Austin, TX.  I do see, however, that his distinction
between liberty and license is a thoughtful one, with a strong
emphasis on personal responsibility.

Chip's references to child molestation and the porn market are smears
by inference.  His reference to "a man being tripped into bed by his
daughters" is (probably) equally culpable error.  I say "probably"
because I may have forgotten an actual instance in the H corpus.  But
of the two possibilities which come to mind-- both from TIME ENOUGH
FOR LOVE-- in no case is physical paternity involved.  (Good grief!
this is getting as bad as TESB!)  The 3 girls stood in a \social/
relationship of daughter, but Dora's was adoptive, and Laz and Lor
were genetic SISTERS to Lazarus.

As for Chip's finding it objectionable that RAH made a lot of bucks
off of ...BEAST, I somehow can't find it a bad thing for \any/ SF
writer to be well paid.

------------------------------

Date:  1 Aug 1980 1729-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: politics

  It is quite obvious from recent mail that not enough members of the
SF community are aware of the Yoda for President campaign.
  It is clear from hints in the movie that Yoda is not only old enough
to run, but as a Jedi could be considered a "citizen of the universe"
(or some other such loophole in the elections law that will enable him
to meet the citizenship requirements)
  We need a "man" in office with his clear cut qualifications, an
ability to tell good from evil, a no nonsense approach, the ability to
force an issue (ok I'm sorry about that one) and the ability to teach
us how to deal with our nations enemies.
  Further, running on the ticket of Yoda and Organa (we clearly could
use a female vice-president - it is about time) the votes would flow
in.  And his choice for secretary of State -- Obi-wan of course!
(imagine the benefits of a discorporate secy of state)
  So vote :

                YODA IN 80, DEFEAT THE FORCES OF EVIL!

         (send your tax free (more or less) contributions to:

                      Jim Hendler
                      Yoda Campaign Headquarters 
                      Dallas, Texas 
   
                 and support the force of the future)

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/06/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in the digest.  They
review the recently released, revised version of Close Encounters
of the Third Kind. People who have not seen either version of the
movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  5 Aug 1980 1140-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: CE3K

Why should anyone go to see this? the original version was (in my
opinion) a dreary piece of rubbish that shouldn't have been released.
The first contact theme has been handled better many times in sf. In
my eyes (cynical I admit) Speilberg is merely trying to cash in on
Star Wars again. He knows that the original CE3K was rubbish so now
he hopes to entice us back by adding a a scene that promises to be
full of highly creative makeup, costuming work, and special effects
(or so I guess).  but these things can't change the fact that the
basic work simply fails to stir my (or very many others) sense of
wonder. Why should I go to see a work by someone who has clearly
demonstrated his incompetence with SF?  I think I will be better
off spending my money on some more Darkover books.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1980 11:33 PDT
From: Pugh.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Revised Kind

The newly released & revised version of CE3K turned out to be much
more entertaining than I thought it would be. The story did seem to
move more smoothly with the power-plant, Air Force investigation,
and tree branches through the window sequences edited from the new
version.  The opening scenes and the special effects sequences still
retained their impact! Sorry Larry -- the alien did smile to Lacombe
at the end!.

/Eric

------------------------------

Date:  5 Aug 1980 (Tuesday) 1317-EDT
From: LANGR at WHARTON (Robert Lang)
Subject: Special Addition of Close Encounter OTK.

Having seen the new edition (for a total now for both versions 3
times) I got the impression that Neary was transformed into the
alien at the end. I realize this sounds crazy, but the last scenes
were Neary entering the craft, the insides opening up with the
(?droid) crafts entering and then all kinds of glitter coming down
on top of Neary.  The very next scene is the alien walking down the
ramp and looking around (admittedly not smiling - but close). The
two scenes were so close it gave me the impression of deja vu with
the end of 2001 and the star child - with alien/Neary coming out
to visit humanity.

Any one else get this impression??

                                                Rob Lang
                                                LANGR @ WHARTON

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 AUG 1980 0709-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #38
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 7 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 38

      Today's Topics:       Replies - Invented words in SF,
                      SF Books - RAH and Sexism & CPU Wars, TESB 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  6 Aug 1980 1039-PDT
From: Rounds at OFFICE-1
Subject: Coined & Invented Words in SF

The recent discussion of the coined SF word came to mind as I was
rereading the opening of Niven's Ringworld. It brought to mind what I
suppose is a pet peeve (actually, I have so many peeves that they are
more in the category of herds of livestock than pets, but, anyway...):
Coined words are great for technical subjects and professional jargon.
They eventually migrate into the general language if appropriate,
useful, or otherwise deemed worthy (radar, laser, microwave, etc.).
They DON'T replace really important uses of language like swearing!
"TANJ" as a curse derived from an acronym (There Ain't No Justice!)
is ridiculous!  First off, it's an English slang acronym, and just
before it is first defined, the book explicitly states that Terran
languages were replaced by "Interworld" in the general conforming
tendency of the transfer booths. Secondly, curses come from the gut
and core of human emotion and experience; all I can think of, aside
from Elizabethan literary constructs, come from sex and religion,
prime motivating factors of human behavior. No acronym can possibly
be so internalized in human feelings to become an emotional outburst,
which is usually what prompts a curse.

As a practical matter, I guess made-up curse words certainly help
an author sell his books to libraries and such censored markets.

Regards, Will Martin (ROUNDS@Office-1)

------------------------------

RMS@MIT-AI 08/07/80 05:05:41 Re: TANSTAAFL

I always thought that TANSTAAFL was what one says when all the lines
on the computer are in use.

------------------------------

Date: 08/06/80 1019-EDT
From: JSOUTH at LL
Subject: RAH sexist !?

Heinlein; sexist??!  The author of Podkayne, and Glory Road?  Is
anybody going to claim that Star isn't the BOSS in Road?  Isn't
Heinlein the one who put adventure in adventuress?  So I sprang
the question on my wife over dinner.  Mark me down for an MCP
(and I didn't think I had it in me).

   She says "Chomp, chomp, Yes, I think so."
   "But, but, but, why?", sez I.
   "All his women get pregnant first thing in his recent books"

   Silence.

And this from a female mathematician who has just become eagerly
pregnant with my very reluctant cooperation.

So I accept the gauntlet.  RAH's recent women get pregnent quickly
because he's trying to get it into some thick skulls out there that
a society or family that doesn't think that an 8 month pregnant
women is the most beautiful sight around (so to speak), has just
about joined the dinosaurs.  Of course if women find it too much
of an inconvenience to bear children (I personally think its an
inconvenience to even help raise them) and if our society makes
it clear (and it most certainly does) that having children is a
crushing burden to our instant gratification, consumer and "me"
oriented ethic, then our ethics are counter-survival.

NUMBER OF THE BEAST is poor writing for all the reasons given in this
network before, but it is not sexist and I can prove it.  The second
theme of NOTB is not "the problems of command", but the inability of
some men (otherwise able) to accept that a women can be the best in
what they have been brought up to believe is "man's" work. It is this
theme that is unresolved (Jake thinks he's in line, but he still has
and is a problem). Lazarus and Zeb have adapted: one by resolving to
avoid Sharpie except where the situation is limited by aquaintance to
aquaintance protocol, and the other by accepting her leadership. Jake
hasn't done either.  The men also get their ears pinned back over
who's going to do what once the children are born - they're not going
to get to leave the women and children home.  Heinlein can't resolve
these problems short of making them all Howards and Howards have all
the time they need for all the activities they want (ie. time enough
for screwing around and time enough for love).  It's because he isn't
a sexist that:
    1) he raises these ideas
    2) can't resolve them.

Enough of flaming (really), but does anyone know what
"floccinaucinihilipilificatrix" is supposed to mean (NOTB p 134).

As Schlafly would say if she were a man, "I have my wife's permission
to write this".

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1980 1933-EDT
From: Steve Lionel (via Paul Young <YOUNGP at DEC-2136>)
Subject: "CPU Wars"

A not-too-long time ago, in an office not very far away, there worked
a DEC Technical Writer named Charlie Andres. Charlie was involved with
the documentation for VAX/VMS V1 and is partly responsible for the
now-classic VAX-11 Common Run-Time Procedure Library Reference Manual.
Other than being a technical writer, Charlie was also an amateur
cartoonist. In his spare time, he created a series of cartoons which
told the story of how IPM (Impossible to Program Machines) decided
to take over an upstart firm named Digital Equipment Corporation.
Initially entitled "Corporate Wars", then retitled "CPU Wars",
Charlie's saga followed the exploits of Virtual George, Belynda Bliss
and Digital Dog as they attempted to overthrow the usurping IPM. From
its modest beginnings in 1977 to its conclusion in 1979, "CPU Wars"
had hundreds of DEC-ites world-wide hanging around their inter-office
mailboxes eagerly awaiting the next episode.

In early 1980, Charlie decided that it was time that the world learned
of this heroic struggle.  He expanded the page-size to 11x14, added
a lot of new artwork, and had copies bound with full-color covers.
However, to keep DEC's legal folks happy, he thinly disguised all
direct references to DEC. Therefore, you will be reading about HEC
(Human Equipment Corporation) which is based in Barnyard, Mass. and
which has a super-duper new computer named the VEX-11/1978.

Charlie is unfortunately no longer with DEC, (no, not because of "CPU
Wars"), but you can still get your very own copy of "CPU Wars".  If
you are at all familiar with DEC, you'll be laughing your head off
on every page.  If you want a copy, send $2.95 plus $0.50 postage to
CHTHON Press, 77 Mark Vincent Drive, Westford, MA 01886.  It's worth
it.

                                -- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1980 1918-PDT
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow <GEOFF at DARCOM-KA>
Subject: JHENDLER's message on politics wrt to Yoda for President.

You stated:
        
   "We need a `man' in the office with his clear cut qualifications,
    an ability to tell good from evil, a no nonsense approach, the
    ability to force an issue and the ability to teach us how to deal
    with our nations from enemies".
                
I think these qualifications are more fitted for a mogul like your
fellow Dallas Texas neighbor, J.R. Ewing.  Perhaps next time you're
in the vicinity of Dallas General Hospital, you might drop by and pay
ol' J.R.  a visit.  I think he'd make a much better president than a
Jedi myself.  Perhaps he could put Yoda on his payroll as one of his
henchmen.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/07/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1980 at 0003-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB'S TOKEN ORIENTAL ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Like predicting a new planet and having one turn up where you said
it would be, I can't help gloating a little when my prediction of a
token Oriental in SW-5 is borne out unmistakably.

I reported earlier the black-moustached Cloud City guardsman among
those that waylay the Imperials when Lando rebels, who might or
might not be Oriental (I've seen similarly Oriental-looking Chicanos,
possibly due to Amerindian genes (which are essentially Oriental)).
But there can be no doubt about the guardsman on the right-hand side
immediately behind Lando's bald aide when they first go out to meet
the people from the Millennium Falcon.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1980 1517-EDT
From: Paul Young <YOUNGP at DEC-2136>

There seems to have been some controversy over why Darth Vader puts
up with the ineptness of the storm troopers. I think the answer is
simple; Darth Vader is just as dumb as they are. Granted, he controls
the Force, but does that make him intelligent? There are many people
who are gifted with photographic memories whose I.Q. are well below
average. Maybe the emperor only puts up with him because he's the
only evil Jedi around.

Consider how DV commands. Is killing off subordinates after a single
error (and not allowing them to learn from their mistakes) the sign
of a wise leader? And his clumsy trap for Luke. And how Leia and Luke
(and Chewbacca, R2D2, and C3PO) have escaped from him twice...

                        -- Paul (YOUNGP@DEC-2136)

P.S. What would be the effect of splitting a planet in half? would
     gravity pull it back together? or would centripetal acceleration
     cause it to fly apart?

------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 08/03/80 23:27:22 Re: Luke's Hand...

An interesting thought is this: would not a master of The Force,
which Luke is yet to become, not be able to regrow a missing limb? We
see Obi-Wan incredibly agile for the age he must be. (He was a master
of The Force at least 30 years before, in the Clone Wars - and was a
teacher with a YOUNG pupil, so we assume he was over thirty THEN;
and possibly older...)  We see a MUTILATED Vader be incredibly agile
- yet NOT able to regenerate, but perhaps this is the one weakness
of the Dark Side? (Yoda's comment that the Dark Side is NOT stronger
means it is weaker, or would Luke be the Only Hope of destroying an
equal enemy?)
     I say, that when Luke is done with his training and is a Jedi,
there will be mention or actual visuals of him regenerating, from
the perfectly sheared stump, a new hand.  If not, no other mention
will EVER be made of the bionic hand.
     Lets discuss this - sort of interesting, to me anyway.  If
anyone has any comments they feel aren't worth sending to the list,
send them to me and I will compile a message in the next few days
to SF-L.

                                                        {Matt}

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 07/28/80 22:04:40
Re: TESB IN ALTERNATE SPACE/TIME

     I don't know about any of you out there, but it seemed to me
in that scene where they took off Darth Vader's helmet...wasn't it
marvelous how it turned out to be Woody Allen behind the mask?

------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 07/28/80 12:07:58 Re: TESB university scene

Does anyone know why Yoda kept his job as full professor of Jedi
Science at Dagobah State University instead of getting a lucrative
job consulting with industry, as obviously Luke is planning on doing?
Could it be the pretty female students in his classes? I thought his
article in the JAJK (Journal of the Association of Jedi Knights)
was absolutely brilliant!  Also, what did everyone think of Luke's
game-winning 95 yard touchdown run in the homecoming game, without
even touching his feet to the ground once?

- Bruce

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 07/26/80 15:05:36 Re: star wars in alternate universe

FLASH!!! The evil Darth Vader is a transsexual.  "Not Luke's father",
educated sources reveal.

        Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 AUG 1980 0705-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #39
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 8 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 39

    Today's Topics:        Replies - Invented words in SF,
                    SF Books - RAH and Sexism & Lens Series, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Derivation of floccinaucinihilipilificatrix

  I don't know what "floccinaucinihilipilificatrix" means but I have
  heard of a similar word, "floccipaucinihilipilification", used by
  Sir Walter Scott in one of his works. It means something like "the
  art of estimating as worthless".               -- <Tou at PARC-MAXC>

  Floccinaucinihilipilification Is the longest word in the Oxford
  English Dictionary. Flocci, Nauci, Nihili, and Pili all mean
  worthless in Latin, and are apparently taken from some rote in
  a well known Eton schoolboy's grammar. It means to estimate as
  worthless. A floccinaucinihilipilificatrix is therefore a women
  who does that.                                  --  <MMCM at MIT-AI>

  [ Thanks also go to Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND> and to
    <Bliss-10 at CMU-10A> for responding to this query. --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date:  7 August 1980 11:26 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Acronymic Curses?

How many of you have said "Foo!" or "Foobar!" in a moment of pain or
anger?  Surely you know that Foobar comes from Fubar - Fucked Up
Beyond All Recognition (or Repair).  So, acronym-derived curses are
already in use.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Aug 1980 1011-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: not that I blame Heinlein, but......

I should remind people that Heinlein's ethos is intended for
circumstances that no longer exist, or might yet exist, but are
certainly not the case now. "Keep your clothes and weapons where
you can find them in the dark" would be good advice on the American
frontier (though not on say the Canadian frontier) or in the midst of
a headlong expansion into the galaxy, but is ridiculous today.  More
than ridiculous, for ready availability of guns turns a lot of rages
into murders. Heinlein might well think that women are most beautiful
when eight months pregnant, but the Mexicans and Indians and Chinese
probably disagree.  He, or rather his mouthpiece Lazarus Long might
well believe that it's best to move on when the neighborhood goes
sour, but we are not living in a world where you can really do that,
because we are living in only one world. And friends, in spite of G K
O'Neill, this is the only world you and I are ever going to inhabit.
We make it here, and with each other, or we don't make it.  Heinlein
is not interested in this situation, and has nothing to say about it
except get out while you can.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1980 15:58 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: RAH/population

Ref JSOUTH at LL: So if our society discourages having children it
is counter-survival, hmm?  Because of the population deficiency, no
doubt. Thank goodness we have that problem, instead of a population
explosion, which would lead to wholesale pollution and destruction
of the environment, extermination of other species, poverty and
overcrowding, etc.

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 07 AUG 1980 1041-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RAH & sexism (short comment)

 Sorry; any society that \does/ believe that "an eight-months-pregnant
woman is the most beautiful thing around" is already on the Malthusian
skids.  If you take a historical perspective on Heinlein's writing
(compare this attitude with, say, Star's (GLORY ROAD) in 1963) it
seems obvious that what is speaking is Heinlein's growing bile at
never having had kids of his own; I think he's become a bit bent on
the subject.

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1980 1450-EDT (Tuesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: Lensm(a/e)n Series by E.E.(Doc) Smith

After reading references to these and on recommendations from some
friends, I decided to read the series...so my problem is What is the
prescribed order?  I picked up 'Children of the Lens' (paraphrased)
but when I started reading it I felt as though I was reading a book
later in the series...The reason I felt that Children was the first
was that it was listed first on the inside cover...(I premptorily
check for alphabetical ordering, and reverse alphabetical, but no
luck, they appeared to be listed in chronological <whatever that
means> order)

   Thanx, Doug

[ Nicholls (via HJJH) gives the internal sequence for the Lens
  series as:

    1. TRIPLANETARY, 2. FIRST LENSMAN,        3. GALACTIC PATROL
    4. GRAY LENSMAN, 5. SECOND-STAGE LENSMAN, 6. CHILDREN OF THE LENS

  Also in the "Lensman" universe, but not dealing with the central
  conflict, is a 'fix-up', MASTERS OF THE VORTEX aka THE VORTEX
  BLASTER, which might be pseudo-numbered 5.5 for best placement.
  
  Thanks go to HJJH for this information.  --  RDD  ]

------------------------------

MOON@MIT-MC 08/06/80 04:33:27 Re: Lucas next film jokes

This brings back to mind an F&SF competition of a few years ago which
included a remake of "Attack of the Crab Monsters" (remember that?) as
3 films, directed by Isaac Asimov.  The films concern themselves with
a group of giant crabs which emerge from the ocean to win the world
series, and are called Crustacean, Crustacean and Umpire, and Second
base-Crustacean.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/08/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 07 AUG 1980 1058-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: LARKE's comment

  In one of the spinoffs from MAD magazine this month there is a
\terrible/ parody of TESB; in the last panel Darth Vader is revealed
to be Mork from Ork.

------------------------------

Date: 07 AUG 1980 1055-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: regrowth

  In "Lost Legacy" (Heinlein novella in his collection ASSIGNMENT IN
ETERNITY) one of the characters has an induced vision of \ancient/
history.  In his symbology it comes out as the rebellion of the
younger gods (Greek pantheon); at one point "Zeus" tells "Vulcan"
(a rebel) that Vulcan could heal the twist in his leg if he would
straighten out the twist in his mind.  Don't know whether Lucas was
actually thinking about this but it makes a fascinating parallel to
Matt (MJL@MIT-MC)'s comments.

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/07/80 13:07:18 Re: blown apart planets

I expect that gravity would pull a "temporarily inconvenienced" planet
back together IF the individual particles (landmasses) were not pushed
away with more than the required escape velocity (about 5 miles per
second for earth). Assuming the mass distribution remains spherically
symmetric, the expanding system should still behave as if the
attraction comes from a point mass at the cloud's center. e.g.,
the full initial velocity is still required.
     This is a lot of kinetic energy.  Even if the planet manages to
congeal again, the death star's blast, ought to heat it up a tiny bit
(anyone want to do the calculation?).  Also note that from the vantage
point of the Death Star, they had plenty of time to casually leave the
scene of the crime before the refuse arrived, probably on the order of
10 minutes.  In fact, the explosion should have appeared gracefully
slow (and barely perceptible at the start), assuming D.V. and chums
were employing the minimum amount of energy necessary to complete the
task.
        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1980 1933-EDT
From: John Burns (via Paul Young <YOUNGP at DEC-2136>)
Subject: TESB bugs

How in GALAXY's sake could the seen that took place on the asteriod
in TESB actually occur?

  1) How could a 'monster-like worm creature' get enough food to
     survive. The odds that enough, or even any, space ships will
     pass through are small.  Reduce those odds by the fact that
     ships (except when being chased) usually avoid asteroid
     fields, and multiply those odds by the probability of a
     monster catching one, and you have one starving monster.

  2) That is assuming the 'monster' can survive, for asteriods
     don't have enough mass to hold an atmosphere (witness our moon).

  3) Where did the gravity inside the monster come from?  I didn't
     notice the asteriod spinning.

  4) HAN, LEIA, & COMPANY had to wear oxygen masks when they left the
     ship while inside the monster, but with no atmosphere why didn't
     they simply explode?

  5) My final complaint regards the sound effects of the asteriod
     scene which in space are not audible.  However the chase, etc.
     wouldn't be as exciting without them, and if the ENTERPRISE in
     STAR TREK can make a whoosh as it goes by, the <-> |+| imperial
     ships certainly have the right to explode in stereo.

                                                John Burns

P.S. Does anyone have reasonable explanations or more BUGS?

------------------------------

Date: 01 AUG 1980 1636-EDT
From: GFH at CCA
Subject: Star Wars, Hope, ets

The "Other" Hope is really R2D2.  He's calm, cool and collected (at
least more than the humans in the movie and doesn't Yoda say that the
force permeates everything.  Now if that little 'droid can only learn
how to use the force...
        
------------------------------

Date: 07 AUG 1980 1517-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)

  DGSHAP's alternate universe is reminiscent of a piece called STAR
WARS ROOTS, performed at the 1978 Disclave. Darth Vader (played by
Avedon Carol, noted LoCcist) was a woman who paralyzed men by flashing
them, thereby saving on use of the force; Skywalker Sr. was the one
man she couldn't dazzle, which was how Leia was born. The show had a
number of good bits, such as the Storm Troopers' March (with GoH Bob
Tucker bringing up the rear; "Darth VADer was THERE when you LEFT"
"you(')r(e) RIGHT!" etc., ending with "DOOOOOOOOM" as the chorus
performs a famous cabalistic gesture) and Vader's fury when she
found the nurse in the lying in ward hadn't run the baby down the
Dispos-All: "You gave it to a gypsy woman? What do you think this
is. . . an opera?"(nurse chokes and collapses).

------------------------------

Date:  7 Aug 1980 0946-PDT
From: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI (Craig W. Reynolds )
Subject: Ineptness of Imperial Storm Troopers

See what happens when you reinstate the Draft?  Ah, for the good old
days of the All Volunteer Imperial Forces.  Why I remember one time
during the Clone Wars, must be 30 years ago now ...

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/07/80 13:14:42

I was trying to track down a copy of the JAJK (Journal of Associated
Jedi Knights) to find that ad for zen-chips (the snack that you never
want to eat) but I couldn't locate a single issue.
     Does anyone know where I can pick up a copy?

        Dan

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/07/80 16:20:52 Re:  zen-chips and the JAJK

Never mind, I found out the problem.  The JAJK is never published at
all (in corporeal form).  All the subscription holders already know
what would have been published, and they seem to have great fun not
debating it over the aether.
     These Jedi Knights are a very confusing people.

        Dan

------------------------------

DAUL@MIT-MC 08/02/80 04:19:20 Re: SW's Alternate Universe

If you remove the D, T, one of the As, V and E, and then add the
letters ICH NIXON in the right order....you get the name of an
ex-president of the United States.  Amazing!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 AUG 1980 0643-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #40
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 9 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:           Replies - Invented Words in SF,
               SF Books - RAH's Ethos & Lens Series & Floating Worlds,
                       SF Bloopers - Leave it to Beaver, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 AUG 1980 1436-EDT
From: DR at MIT-MC (David M. Raitzin)
Subject: acronymic curses

   From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics

   How many of you have said "Foo!" or "Foobar!" in a moment of pain
   or anger? Surely you know that Foobar comes from Fubar - Fucked Up
   Beyond All Recognition (or Repair). So, acronym-derived curses are
   already in use.

Actually, it was derived from Fucked Up Beyond All Recognizable Form,
but then Form was dropped...

------------------------------

Date:  8 Aug 1980 0925-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: RAH comments

Funny. Actually, many of the Heinlein dictums which sound the most
rough-and-ready, such as putting your weapons where you can get
them in the dark, and not sitting with your back to a door, are
more appropriate for "over-civilized" milieus where population
pressure is high and life is cheap (Dune; Stand on Zanzibar;
Newark, NJ); these are precautions against >people<, not
lions-and-tigers-and-bears. 

Furthermore, if you want to increase the population, you would want
to make the >impregnable< females look the most irresistible, and
vice versa, which is what evolution has done.  Then you make the
baby irresistible so it will be well cared for.  This, too, is the
way things work.

What is the usual lag time for a book out in trade paperback to
reappear in m.m.? (I refuse to pay a 200% premium to have my books
look like they were produced for third-graders, with pictures and
large print.)  (Besides, they don't fit in my shelves.)

------------------------------

Date:  8 Aug 1980 11:38:28 EDT
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: lensmen

I also picked up a couple of the Lensmen books after reading
about them here in the SF-Lovers newsletter. Umm, as one of those
narrow-minded types who happens to think the Golden Age of Science
Fiction is right now, I recommend that anyone else who is tempted
to do so scour your local used book stores before laying out real
cash money for them.

The Lensmen books have all those neat features that gave Sci-Fi
its good name among middle-aged High School English teachers. All
the problems that arise in the book (in this case, First Lensman)
threaten to End Civilization before the end of this chapter, if
not by the next page. Oh My!  But not to worry, our heroically
heroic heroes (HHH's) have foreseen this very circumstance,
allowing them to deus-ex-machinate a solution in the next
paragraph.  Whew.

The dialogue is, well, juvenile (oh but the descriptions are
vivid, "the valiant war-machine turned suddenly, thrusters blazing. 
Suddenly from all gun-ports a brilliant cone of orange destruction
spewed forth, sundering the armored hull of the startled pirate ship.")
Ships are boarded with grappling hook and sword, and space battles are
concluded by hand to hand combat, in a fine swashbuckling tradition,
though accompanied by the complication of taking place in free fall
(this, incidentally, is not a problem for our HHH's, due to their
swift reflexes and superior strength).

Well, it was okay when I was ten years old, but I only got halfway
through the book before my strength gave out.

Actually, I think the Golden Age of S.F. is actually the extended
present -- including all the good stuff from years gone by (Stanley G.
Weinbaum, Cordwainer Smith, etc.). Not including Doc Smith, however.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1980 1456-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: "Floating Worlds"

"Floating Worlds" by Cecilia Holland is a terrific book, and I'm
surprised it hasn't gotten more attention. Maybe the reason a lot
of people don't like it is that the world and the characters it
portrays aren't at all nice; the book isn't for kids, because it's
full of the grime, confusion, and unpleasantness of real life.
That's what I liked so much about it: it seemed very realistic --
not the technology (although it seems to me that Holland handles
that very well) but the human interactions. As I read, I kept being
happily surprised at how deep the characters were. They kept doing
things I didn't predict that were both perfectly consistent for them
in that universe, and realistically complex. I sure wouldn't want to
live in that world, but then, some of what I found so unattractive
about it I also find unpleasant in real life.

I read "Floating Worlds" because of a review in SFReview in 1978 or
1977, can't remember which.  Dick Geis and I agree that a work of art
should pick you up by the throat and shake you. "Floating Worlds" did
that to me, and I loved it.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1980 10:34 PDT
From: Richard R. Brodie <Brodie at PARC-MAXC>
Subject: More technical errors

I noticed a glaring error in this morning's episode of Leave it to
Beaver.  Eddie Haskell says that there must be 1000 murders a year
"in California alone," implying that they live in California. This
observation is borne out by their referring to the "Department of
Motor Vehicles." However, it a later episode, June is upset when she
finds out that Wally's girlfriend's parents live in California! "I'd
feel better if they lived in Ohio," she says.

There is no excuse for this kind of inconsistency!  In the episode
before, Wally is in the eighth grade while Beaver is in second.  But
at the end of the series, Wally is graduating high school while Beaver
is finishing eighth grade!  Where did those two years go?

C'mon, guys!  It's just as easy to get these things right in the
first place. The comic effect of an otherwise excellent scene can be
instantly ruined by one of these careless blunders.  Let's hope that
sitcom writers in the future read this and become more careful when
it comes to blatant blunders like these.

        Richard Brodie

------------------------------

Date:  4 Aug 1980 at 0157-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SW/TESB PHONOGRAPH RECORDS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The jackals are at it again...

After SW-4, 9 phonograph records with at least one full side of SW
material were issued and had conventional distribution. (There was
that other "unofficial" one I described a few days ago, but it
obviously wasn't a normal, commercial record.)  A variety of
commercial producers were involved.

So far (counting the "digitized" version which hasn't reached here
yet) there are 6 comparable records based on TESB.  \This/ time,
predictably, the principle of -- "If ANYbody's gonna make any bucks
offa SW, it's gonna be \US/!" has been in effect. Except, presumably,
for the digitized one (reported to have been re-orchestrated by John
Williams himself and conducted by Gerhardt) all have been issued
under the "official SW" RSO label. Good ol' free enterprise produced
a mixed bag, but over-all, the output was enjoyable.  Monopolies (to
coin a new 'law' if it doesn't already exist) encourage mediocrity.

As just a TESB fan without any background in audio reproduction,
I found the 2 based on the sound track adequate, but others have
reported negatively.  My own disappointments (in order of
increasing glumness) concern the 3 spin-off platters:

   MECO Plays Music from TESB
   BORIS MIDNEY -- Music from TESB (synthesizer)
   EMPIRE JAZZ

The devoted TESB fan who enjoys hearing the various melodic themes
given different treatments will too often find so much emphasis on
treatment that the themes get lost in the razzmatazz... even in the
MECO, the least flawed in this regard. The cover on the jazz record
is amusing, and the altered but readily recognizable presentations
of the themes at the beginning and end of each band are distinctly
intriguing.  But the rest of the time the musicians don't touch base
enough for a listener to determine w-h-i-c-h theme is, supposedly,
being developed.  This last is too often true of the synthesizer
version, also. A jazz buff I checked with damned the quality of the
jazz with faint praise.  A synthesizer-record-collector panned that
version as "Muzak-level, with out-moded, would-be pyrotechnics".

DON'T buy before listening.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/09/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  8 Aug 1980 1013-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: planet-busting

It's not hard to figure out how much energy it takes to disassemble
a planet. Don't worry about the escape velocity, which changes with
distance from the center, anyhow.

Just calculate the energy needed to remove the outer layer and
integrate from zero to the planet's radius.  Assuming constant density
throughout the number comes to 1.6 x 10^32 joules for the earth.  This
is a lot.  For comparison, the power output of the Sun is 2.7 x 10^23
watts.  If the Death Star took one second to destroy Alderaan then
during that time it was putting out almost 600 million times the
power of the Sun, minimum.  Fairly hefty hunk of hardware, there.

------------------------------

Date: 08 Aug 1980 1402-PDT
From: William Gropp <WDG at SU-AI>
Subject: Nuclear Weapons in SW   

There have been several opportunities for the use of nuclear weapons
in Star Wars.  First was when Leia's ship was captured in SW4.  This
was a perfect opportunity to use a fusion bomb to destroy the Imperial
ship and give the droids a better chance of escaping.  Hoth in SW5
has already been mentioned. I propose two possible rationalizations.
First, since this is a long time ago, perhaps the laws of physics
are different. Secondly, there is precedent in science fiction for
a "nuclear reaction supressor". The Mule in "Foundation and Empire"
had such a device; he used it (in part) to defeat the Foundation
Navy.  One of the stories in "Hammer's Slammers" (Drake) mentions
a nuclear damper which is used to render a nuclear bomb almost
powerless.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1980 1:01 pm PDT (Friday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: TESB bugs

I agree with John Burns that the asteroid monster was the least
believable part of the movie, though it WAS entertaining. I can
explain away some of the bugs in it (or whatever those energy
vampires were); maybe other people can tackle the rest.

  (1) The monster's diet certainly consists of more than spaceships.
      It probably eats various minerals, and for the most part dines
      on asteroids, which it can find in abundance.  That might also
      explain why it waited so long to close its maw; it was surprised
      enough at having a tidbit fall in of its own accord (usually the
      asteroids just wander nearby and it grabs them), and certainly
      it never expected the morsel to try to escape!
  (2) I'm willing to conjecture that a living creature can be built
      so as to withstand vacuum. 
(3-4) I too would like to know where the gravity and pressure
      originated. (The former would account for the latter, of
      course.)
  (5) As has been pointed out several times with regard to Star Trek,
      Star Wars, TESB, etc., the producers are well aware of their
      "error" in having sound effects in space, but they had to put
      them in in order to get the proper audience reaction. This is
      entertainment, not a documentary!

        -- Don.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 AUG 1980 0804-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #41
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Sunday, 10 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 41

 Today's Topics:        New Bibliography Query and Responses,
                 SF Books - Plot/Title Request & Ringworld Engineers
                               & Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1980 1456-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: bibliographic query (language in SF)

Bibliographic query: SF works in which language or linguistics is a
serious element; it needn't be the major theme.  Reply directly to
me. I'll republish in SFL after a decent interval.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Responses on Invented Words / SF Comedy / Imaginary Books
                      Cats / SF Series / Self Ref SF / Gene Eng App


Invented Words in SF:
---------------------

  Did Niven invent "droud"?          --  Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>

    "bayquaked" is one of my all time favorite coinages, because of
  the teriffic way it was written into the story.
    In most coinage, the word is introduced and explicitly explained,
  rather like ( but usually not so crudely as ):
                    ... as you know, a widget is ...
    The aspects of The Shockwave Rider that make "bayquaked"
  intelligible are examples of absolutely top quality writing.
                             --  William Westfield <WESTFW at WHARTON>


SF Comedy and Parody:
---------------------

Work by Ron Goulart or R.A. Lafferty

  My belated comments on this subject are: Check out just about
  ANYTHING by R. A. Lafferty or Ron Goulart.
                                              --  Zellich at OFFICE-1

STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS by Harry Harrison (novel)

  So you don't like the Lensmen? For a real treat, plow through one
  or two or all of the Lensmen series, and then read Harrison's STAR
  SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS. Ol' Harry H. musta cut his eyeteeth
  on a "crystal solidified from the very substance of the ether
  itself."                                        --  RODOF at USC-ECL


Imaginary Books:
----------------

Ralph von Wau Wau Series by <author unknown>

    There are countless examples of imaginary books being referenced
  in stories, but how many times has the imaginary book then shown up
  in the bookstore?  I can think of one, a recursive series.  I don't
  remember all the names and titles, so maybe someone out there can
  fill in the blanks.
    In several of Kurt Vonnegut's novels, <titles?>, one of the
  characters was Kilgore Trout, who was an author of SF. Sometime
  later, a paperback by "Kilgore Trout" named "Venus on the
  Half-shell" showed up.  (I once read that the book was really
  written by Philip Jose Farmer.)  The hero of the story was a
  character named Simon Wagstaff (the Space Wanderer).  Simon liked
  a series of stories by <author?> which revolved about a character
  named Ralph von Wau Wau.  Ralph was a super-intelligent dog who
  was a detective somewhat like Sherlock Holmes.
    Well, sometime later, Ralph von Wau Wau stories started showing
  up in F&SF!  I saw two, maybe there were more. The titles were
  puns on Sherlock Holmes stories.  I'm sorry I don't remember them.
    Q: At what point will we need to use LISP to describe SF stories?
                                          --  Steve Lionel of DEC

  [ For some earlier comments on Farmer's involvement with Venus on
    the Half Shell and other imaginary books see [SFL V1 #157].
                                                           --  RDD  ]


Cats in SF:
-----------

"Polesotechnic League" Series by Pould Anderson

  Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic league stories: The Trouble Twisters,
  Satan's World, Mirkheim, etc. often feature Chee Lan the Cynthian -
  a cat-person if there ever was one...  -- Ly <LStewart at PARC-MAXC>


SF Short Story Series:
----------------------

"Polesotechnic League" Series by Poul Anderson

  Poul Anderson's "Polesotechnic League".  A good introduction to this
  universe is the collection "The Earth Book of Stormgate".  There are
  several short stories and a few novels as well (such as "Satan's
  World") in this series.                     --  <Woods at PARC-MAXC>

  Also note that "The Earth Book of Stormgate" includes a timeline and
  list of all the stories in this series.       --  <Duffey at MIT-AI>

THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW by Robert A. Heinlein (series collection)

  Heinlein's "Future History". Originally published scattered across
  several books, this is a bargain when picked up in the single volume
  "The Past Through Tomorrow".  There are several excellent stories
  in the collection. Though there is a timeline worked out for the
  series, there aren't as many cases of overlap as in the other
  series that have been mentioned -- that is, there aren't as many
  cases where characters are found in multiple stories, or where
  events or background from one story turn up in another; still,
  there's enough of this sort of thing to qualify the series under
  ROSSID's criterion. "The Past Through Tomorrow" also includes
  "Methuselah's Children" (or is it stepchildren -- I always confuse
  it with the "Plato's mumble" Star Trek episode title), which is
  part of the series and touches back on much of the earlier material.
  "Time Enough For Love" is more a sequel to "Methuselah's Children"
  than it is part of the history.             --  <Woods at PARC-MAXC>

  [ The STAR TREK episode is entitled "Plato's Stepchildren". The
    Heinlein novel is indeed entitled "Methuselah's Children".
                                                              -- RDD ]


Self Referential SF:
--------------------

WHO WAS "WOODROW WILSON SMITH"?

  That's "Lazarus Long's" natal name, but also perhaps an SF
  self-reference since it was one of the early pseudonyms used
  by Henry Kuttner.                                -- <HJJH at UTEXAS>

THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST by Robert A. Heinlein (novel)

    I just read 'The Number of the Beast' by Heinlein.  Forget about
  the fleeting references to other works (like references to "Dune" in
  Varley's 'Titan') -- this book not only manages to make references
  to Star Trek, the Lensman series, Alice in Wonderland, the Land of
  Oz, Stranger in a Strange Land [and Heinlein trashes himself here
  by saying, "'My God, the things some writers will do for money!'"],
  Known Space, the Foundation Series, Poul Anderson, SF critics, but
  it also \recurses/!  I think this wins the prize.
    Since the book is about 90% conversation, it is probably only for
  die-hard Heinlein fans....  And there are some \weird/ illustrations
  in the trade-paperback....               --  Landon <DYER at NBS-10>


Genetic Engineering Applications in SF:
---------------------------------------

A WAR OF SHADOWS by Jack Chalker

  This involved a virus (?) that had to have created by genetic
  tinkering, the story is mostly figgerin' out who-dun-it
                                 --  Steve Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

THE WEB OF THE CHOSEN by Jack Chalker                   --  Steve Zeve

THE WELL OF SOULS series by Jack Chalker

  This is stretching it a lot!!                         --  Steve Zeve

A JUDGEMENT OF DRAGONS by Phyllis Gottlieb

  Entire race of main characters was created by what amounts to a
  genetic tinkerer.  This may be stretching it a little.
                                                        --  Steve Zeve

THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS by Ursula K. LeGuin (novel)

  The Gethinian race (is that the right race?) was created by
  genetic tinkering.                                    --  Steve Zeve

LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE by Robert Silverberg (novel)

  The references are to things done long ago.           --  Steve Zeve

THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE by John Varley (novel)

  Most of the information coming down the Ophiuchi Hotline is on
  genetic engineering.                      -- Charles <CEH at MIT-MC>

SUPERBABY by <author unknown>

  This involved collecting genes from people who were the best in
  their fields and recombining them to create a new human being.
                                                        --  Steve Zeve

------------------------------

Date:  8 Aug 1980 0925-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Title/author request

I have the vaguest recollections of some story (novel, I think)
which begins with a scene of cat-burglar sabotage (blowing up a
factory, I think) and ends with a gunfight in a temple. Somewhere
in the middle there is a girl on the prostitute staff of some
hotel, who is a fan of some general, whom she recognizes one of
her customers to be in disguise, so she runs off with him. I
think his mission has something to do with re-establishing the
lost supremacy of Earth, though I'm not sure.  Ring any bells?

------------------------------

Date:  5 Aug 1980 (Tuesday) 0836-PST
From: HIRGELT at LLL-MFE
Subject: The Ringworld Engineers 

Review: The Ringword Engineers by Larry Niven (novel)
Rating: 7 (out of 10)

This is the sequel to Ringworld. We meet up with Louis Wu 23
years after his return from the first expedition to Ringworld.
Speaker-to-animals is involved, but earned the name Chmee based
on his exploits on Ringworld. Nessus' spouse kidnaps Louis and
Chmee to go to the Ringword. Read the book to find out why and
what happens. We do find out who built Ringworld and what happened
to them and their civilization.

All in all, a reasonable sequel, even after 10 years. I was sort of
lucky, I just read Ringworld 2 weeks ago, so everything was fresh in
my mind. Niven does intersperse references back to the previous story
to keep you informed. They really don't interrupt the flow. The book
was quite enjoyable and well worth reading.

Enjoy it, 

Ed Hirgelt

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/10/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
some apparent anomalies between Niven's "Protector" and some of the
other Known Space stories/novels. Spoilers for "Protector" and other
stories in the series are involved. People who are not familiar with
the series may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 07/29/80 07:44:38
Re:  Some apparent anomalies in Niven's "Protector"

I am reasonably comfortable with Larry Niven's "Known Space" universe,
however I have just finished rereading "Protector" for the umteenth
time and I am somewhat disturbed by the apparent incompatibility with
other "Known Space" stories.

In "Protector" Roy Truesdale seeks out Brennan and they leave Sol for
Home with the Pak scouts close behind. Brennan infects Truesdale with
the modified Tree-of-Life virus just before they get there.  After
they arrive there, the virus spreads to all members of Home.  The
net result is that you have a planet full of childless protectors.

Many years later ("Known Space" time) I believe We Made It buys the
hyperspace shunt from the Outsiders.

How come I have never seen reference to Home being wiped out by plague
(that would be a likely story for the protectors to send to Earth) or
reference to protectors on Home (I have not read "Ringworld Engineers"
yet and I understand that protectors have something to do with
Ringworld).  With the advent of the hyperspace shunt, someone should
have visited Home.

Sometimes I read so fast that I miss things.  If so, could someone
please cite examples to get me back on track.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 AUG 1980 0658-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #42
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Monday, 11 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:  What happens at a Con?, Global 2000 Report Reviews,
               SF Books - Dragon's Egg & Ralph & SF Best Sellers, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 09 AUG 1980 1033-EDT
From: DEE at CCA (Don Eastlake)

Noreascon II, the 38th World Science Fiction Convention, will be
held in Boston in under three weeks. SF Lovers in the area who are
interested in helping on the convention should call its office at
923-8998 most any afternoon or evening. There is lots of work to do.

------------------------------

Date:  9 AUG 1980 1237-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Light Reading

     The ending of DRAGON'S EGG in the original draft sent to
Ballantine/Del Rey was a long, rambling discussion on the future
of intelligent life.  It was full of philosophy on robotics and
the nature of intelligence, space, time, and the universe.  It
encompassed all of space and time and contained zero plot,
characterization, and action.
     Fortunately Lester del Rey got to me before the readers had
this rambling letdown ending imposed upon them.  HOWEVER, those
masochists among you who would like to plow through 4000 words of
the stuff (cut from 7000 words) can send me their NETMAIL address
and sometime next week I will inflict a copy on you.  As you will
see, it is not publishable by itself, but it will be the text that
I will read from in the Author's Forum at NOREASCON II in Boston
around Labor Day.

         Bob Forward (FORWARD@USC-ECL)

------------------------------

MOON@MIT-MC 08/10/80 15:41:27 Re: Ralph von Wau Wau stories

They are by "Jonathan Swift Somers III", who is surely Philip Jose
Farmer.  See "A Scarletin Study", F&SF March 1975, and "The Doge
Whose Barque was Worse than his Bight", F&SF November 1976.  It's
pretty good stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1980 2252-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: SF books popular with the masses

From the New York Times News wire, this week's Bestseller list had:

MASS MARKET PAPERBACKS
    9 THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, by Donald F. Glut.
      (Ballantine-Del Rey, $2.25.) Novelization of the current film.
      [there since the movie release]

TRADE PAPERBACKS
   10 THE NUMBERS OF THE BEAST, by Robert A. Heinlein.
      (Fawcett-Columbine, $6.95.) A journey through an alternate
      universe: science fiction.  [first week on the list]

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1980 20:58-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: GLOBAL 2000 REPORT
To: NATURAL-DISASTERS at MIT-MC

The GLOBAL 2000 report has now been released (766 pages). It doesn't
appear to paint a very rosy picture of the world environment by the
year 2000.  There is a brief mention of the report in Science News
(August 2, 1980 Vol. 118, No. 5).  Here are a few details:

1. World food production should increase 90% from 1970 to 2000, but
   world population will swell more than 50% - from about 4 billion
   in 1975 to 6.35 billion. As a result, food production per person
   will increase only about 15% and most of that increase will be
   consumed by those who already are fairly well fed. People in the
   poor countries of South Asia, the Middle East and Africa will
   have little more food, or less, than now.

2. Land used for agriculture will increase only about 4 percent and
   soil deterioration will continue, so most of the increase in food
   production will rely on higher yields through techniques depending
   on costly oil and natural gas.  As a result real prices for food
   are expected to double by 2000, and underdeveloped nations may
   depend more heavily on food from exporters like the US.

3. Extinctions of plants and animal species will increase
   dramatically. Hundreds of thousands of species - perhaps as many
   as 20 percent of all species on Earth - will be irretrievably
   lost as their habitats vanish, especially in tropical forests.

4. Regional water shortages will become more severe as forest
   destruction reduces the water-holding capacity of land while
   demand for water increases with population growth.

5. Mineral resource cost will increase with rising energy prices.
   There will be fewer resources to go around.  Resource based
   inflationary pressures will continue and intensify.

The report said the study's findings point to increasing potenial
for international conflict and increasing stress on international
financial arrangments.  Even the panel that created this report says
that it may be too optimistic.

One more added note:

   Under current trends, the globe will lose 40 percent of its
   remaining forests. In fact, the July 28 World Development Letter
   by the US AID pegs world wood harvest at 50 ACRES OF FOREST PER
   MINUTE.

You can write to the Council on Environmental Quality in Washington
for more information.  The above excerpts are from the mentioned
Science Weekly and also an article from the Indianapolis Star 7/24/80.

--Bill

PS. I apologize for sending this to SF-Lovers also...I just thought
    that it might be appropriate.

------------------------------

Date: 11 AUG 1980 0447-EDT
From: POURNE at MIT-MC (Jerry E. Pournelle)
Subject: President's Gloom report
To: NATURAL-DISASTERS at MIT-MC, ENERGY at MIT-MC

1. The man in charge of the Big Gloom Report on the Year 2000 was Gus
   Speath.  You may glean a measure of his scientific competence from
   his paper presented at the AAAS Annual Meeting in Houston, in
   which he worried considerably about the "Problem of nuclear wastes
   contaminating vast areas in the event of re-glaciation of the North
   American continent."  This caused me to ask if, given that my house
   was under 40 feet of ice, I would give a damn about nuclear wastes;
   and also to ask him if he knew that after 600 years the only wastes
   to worry about were the actinides, all the fission products having
   long since decayed to insiginificance. He didn't know that; indeed,
   didn't know what an actinide was.

2. The report uses a number of unconnected models. What it doesn't
   do is look at the effect of large investments in new sources of
   energy, such as Solar Power Satellites.  Any system that models
   only one Earth will inevitably predict doom and gloom; indeed, it
   MUST, since, given only one Earth, on some time span we are indeed
   finished. But there is no reason why the human race cannot outlive
   the Earth and the Sun, providing only that we get the hell off
   this ball.  We could take the first steps in that direction this
   generation. We won't, of course; Carter has successfully cancelled
   the $5 million appropriation for continued study of the Solar Power
   Satellite concept, and the L-5 Society has not been able to get
   Congress to ram it down Carter's throat.  Thus we have lost at
   least a year; possibly longer.

3. Given models that can accomodate breakthroughs in energy
   technology, you can get dramatic differences from the Gloom and
   Doom results Carter's Council on Environmental Quality comes up
   with.  Notice also that new sources like SPS are required to
   justify themselves on narrow economic grounds -- while the
   CEQ can fling in the cost of extinct species and various other
   disasters in defense of their efforts. This is double standard
   budgeting with a vengeance. It is obvious that we CAN save many
   of those species, and increase human standards of eating and
   living; we need only take bold (and somewhat expensive in
   investment capital) steps, get out of the mire, and look to
   the heavens.

We won't do that, of course. Thus maybe the new report is right.

        J. E. Pournelle

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/11/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 0025-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: sw4 and planet busting.

Are you sure about that 10^32?  Don't forget that the planet itself
will be helping you.  The inside of a planet is under a fair amount
of pressure, as a result the planet will have a tendency to explode
when you take some of the pressure off. (after all isn't a volcanic
eruption vaguely akin to a planet letting off pressure?)  I do admit
that I don't know how much pressure you would have to release.

        steve z.

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 08/06/80 23:50:55
Re: STRIKING BACK AT THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

     I have a friend with whom I was speaking the other day about
TESB.  She had just seen it, and was very upset at it and its
implications. Her arguments have some merit, so I asked her to
write them down. I repeat them here .

     "There is no question that George Lucas is creating the mythology
which will color the subconscious of the growing generation, just like
Walt Disney's characters are forever a part of my psyche.  That's why
The Empire Strikes Back makes me so angry.  It is merely a rehash of
old war movies, with all their worst cliches and pat killing intact.
But even John Wayne and Frank Sinatra, in all their male-buddy
kill-the-Krauts (or Injuns) showed some compassion - if for nothing
else than their horses.  But the Taun-Taun in TESB doesn't rate such
compassion.  It has the audacity to freeze to death and stink in the
process.  The whole film just glorifies killing.  To be a true man of
grit, one must kill without flinching, it says. You need no justifi-
cation for your killing.  We aren't told why the empire is so bad and
the rebel forces so good; The only bad thing we can be sure about the
empire is they all speak with British accents, all wear Mao jackets,
and Darth Vader has a disturbing habit of choking up incompetent
subordinates.  But we never see why the empire is bad government,
or who the people are who are paying for all those high-tech rebel
spaceships. We are only shown one group of men killing another, for
the glorious Sam Pekinpah Hell of it.
    "And there are never any consequences to this killing! No one ever
weeps for the dead. Luke's hand is chopped off-tragic-but in the next
scene it's all sewed up again. See, war doesn't really hurt!

    "Ah, but there is the Force. A power of Life. Bull. The Force is
only mental power used for killing. You do it with extreme prejudice.
The purpose of the lightsaber is to kill.  How does Yoda demonstrate
the Force?  By raising up a vehicle of war. Luke's own Forcetest is
to kill someone in a cave.  No life (other than a large slug) lives
on the the planet where the supreme teacher of life-force lives. No
light, sunshine, flowers, children, women, young things growing. Just
a wizened old Yoda and a dead swamp. The Force is nothing but a cheat.

    "Now I wouldn't be so angry about this conscienceless war-
glorification film if Lucas and his crew weren't so talented with
the FX and the fantasy, thereby capturing the psyche of my kid so
effectively.  Militarism doesn't need this glorification.  But life
certainly does. If Lucas could turn his talents to glorifying living
and loving and making society function peaceably. That's why the bar
scene in the first film showed such promise.  It was a wonderful
combination of strange creatures enjoying one another, engaged in
peaceful activities - at least until Lucas introduced the destruction
and killing into this wonderful scene. If Lucas could turn his talents
from this rut of warmongering, he could contribute to the making of a
generation concerned enough with life to prevent a World War Three."


     I am still a bit taken aback by all the above. She makes a
powerful statement.  What is this here, the most popular films of
all time...is there something wrong with them, or something wrong
with us?

          Your comments?
              Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 AUG 1980 0643-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #43
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Tuesday, 12 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 43

 Today's Topics:         Ride for NorEasCon II, Global 2000,
                 SF Books - A Step Farther Out, TESB - Glorifies War?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 08/11/80 10:21:44 Re: Ride to Noreascon II

Is anyone driving to Noreascon II from or through the Washington D.C.
area?

- Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 at 2318-CDT
From: david at UTEXAS
Subject: Abandoning Earth.
To: Energy AT MIT-MC

The kind of person who would use up and then discard a planet strikes
me as worse than a slovenly wastrel who would throw a six-pack by the
side of the road.

Planet Earth is a nice place to live (with notable exceptions); not
just someplace to visit on the way to the next galactic conquest by
humans. Most of us I think grew up here.  We depend on a remarkable
set of circumstances where Earth alone in our solar system supports
life as we understand it.

Barring nuclear war or unforeseen catastrophe, and if humans begin
using the earth more wisely, humans can expect to live here many
years.  We could probably even survive long enough to allow us
to develop the knowledge and systems to send explorers, perhaps
colonizers into space.  But even then, few would be willing to
abandon the home planet.

The most important issue for now and the near future is whether
we can control humans' effects on our planet so as to provide a
future we can live with for many years.

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 08/12/80 03:40:51 Re: Pournelle's 2000 view

There is a collection of JEP's essays titled "A Step Farther Out"
which I would recommend to anyone who has any expectation (hope?)
of being around 20 years from now. I rarely feel any urge to spend
cash for the stuff I read (I visit at least 2 libraries a week),
but on occasion I'm sorely tempted; in this case not to review it
for myself, but to push in front of other people.

Basically the book looks at hard-science possibilities for the near
future, especially with respect to escaping the gloomy predictions
of reports such as the "Global 2000".  I'd rather let JEP elaborate
on the details if he choses.

The only problem is that the technological optimism is frequently
swamped by political pessimism. It's easy to snipe at legislative or
public short-sightedness, but harder to figure out the appropriate
methods for changing the situation. After my first reading I had
the distinct feeling that a sequel was in order, to chronicle
whatever efforts have been made and to chart clearer channels
for active lobbying.

On a somewhat related topic, there was a recent news item to the
effect that some military intelligence folks are convinced the
Soviets have developed such a lead in laser/particle-beam weapons
research and construction that they will have a first-strike
capability (i.e. immunity to incoming warheads) by perhaps 1985,
certainly 1991.  If you suspect the worst, all ruminations about
2000 will probably remain academic.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/12/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss whether Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back glorify war.
People who have not seen these movies may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 at 1044-CDT
From: clyde at UTEXAS
Subject: Strking at.......

        Well, there is something to be said about the  criticisms
voiced  about  how  cheap  life  is  in that galaxy far far away.
However, I have great trouble dealing with those criticisms  when
they are clothed in a broadside against modern civilization.

        My reaction to the assertion that there is no  compassion
in  The  Empire  Strikes  Back, a la John Wayne's feeling for his
horse, is that such compassion in those flicks was a  myth,  part
of  the  American  hero  that  could  kill  a  hundred  marauding
Indians/Krauts/Japs/Gooks but adopt a frightened child  or  puppy
who  was  orphanged  by  his very actions.  This was the romantic
view of the American hero. That part of the mythos was very badly
damaged  in  Vietnam.  What  we  see here is a post-Vietnam, less
romanticized hero image. The heros in Lucas' universe are NOT cut
from  the  John  Wayne cloth -- I dare say there is little of the
romantic hero in the Han Solo character  (except  where  Leia  is
concerned). 
	Second,  in  the  Lucas universe, one does what one
needs to for survival. If the Taun-Taun freezes to death  and  it
needs to be gutted to use the body cavity for warmth, it needs to
be done! And there is no reason to be romantic about the  details
(smell, etc).

        The Lucas universe is one in turbulant change,  with  the
order  of  the  Empire  apparantly  having been imposed in recent
times, (and BTW, I feel that SW4 gave us a reasonable  background
about  the  ethics  of  the Empire), with a struggle under way by
those who  represent  the  old  deposed  order,  (as  opposed  to
fighting  for a new, never-tried order). It is not all a universe
at war, but the part that is warring (the rebel alliance and  the
Imperial  navy) is 'where the action is', and hence the focus for
the fantasy.

        Finally, on the criticism  that  Lucas  should  turn  his
talents  to  the  support  of  life and not violence, I think the
criticizer has got her signals VERY crossed. The Star Wars mythos
is  one  of  conflict  -  a classic good vs evil battle, with the
guarantee that good will eventually  triumph.   I  am  sure  that
Lucas  would  be  gratified  to  hear that someone thinks that HE
could turn mankind aside from the path to war. However, he  would
probably  react  as  'What? Me? I just make films.' Methinks that
the damsel expects too much from the filmic art.

        I do not wish to ad hominum the friend  of  LARKE@MIT-ML,
but  it  appears to me she is a slightly naive, highly idealistic
pacifist who is  taking  the  whole  thing  much  too  seriously.
Children  will  go  for  the  fantasy,  and  play  Star Wars. But
children are smarter than the average adult gives them credit for
--  most of them know the difference between fantasy and reality,
though they may ignore that difference when playing out the roles
of Skywalker and Vader.

        In  this  world,  cuts  bleed,  explosions   mangle   and
frostbite  victims  loose limbs. For anyone who thinks otherwise,
the reality of such a situation  should  adjust  their  reference
frame to realize the difference.

        There are a number of things wrong with the world  around
us.   We  may indeed be tripping down the primrose path to WWIII.
But our popular media fantasies can neither  damn  us  faster  or
save us from ourselves.

        And lastly, I would like to  remind  all  involved,  that
while  we  may  get  drawn up in the excitement of the story, and
speculate as if the entire thing was/is real, that  this  is  all
the creation of the mind of eorge Lucas. In short folks, it ai'nt
real. If you want to treat it seriously as  a  story  or  mythos,
that's  fine,  but  if  you  want  to act like it is real and has
significant impact on this world, you are welcome to, even though
it is misguided and self-delusory.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 1124-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: SW attack

Larry's friend is right all the way down the line about the militarist
attitude of SW 4 and 5.  As Mankins@BBN-UNIX noted previously, we do
know nothing about who is right and who is wrong in this conflict.
This however is irrelevant, for this is Adventure and Adventure is
best when played for high stakes, meaning war. Think of Luke back on
the farm on Tatoonie.  He had love and peace and even security if he
kept out of the way of stormtroopers, but he still had this itch for
something more.  This country today is prosperous and at peace, but
the fact that Americans will pay hundreds of millions of dollars to
see these movies indicates that they are far from content.
    Further example.  Just a couple of days ago I saw "The Final
Countdown", wherein a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier with 106
aircraft and 6000 crew is swept back through time to the day before
the attack on Pearl Harbor.  The acting was bad and the effects
mediocre, but the machinery was gorgeous.  There is a real glee in
seeing these Tomcats, planes like living swordblades, play cat and
mouse with Japanese Zeros.  You become eager to see the USS Nimitz
take on the entire Japanese fleet, and not because it will save
lives in future battles.
    Looked at rationally these hankerings are crazy, and real
soldiers lose them very quickly. They are real however and will not
be dissipated by movies or books filled with sweetness and light.
Navy recruiting films like "The Final Countdown" ARE dangerous, but
Star Wars channels these desires into pure fantasy, the safest place
for them to be.

  Ta, John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 1329-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: TESB, SF, and War 

     To Larke's closing comment, "is there something wrong with
them [the films that purportedly glorify war], or something wrong
with us?"  there is a third alternative, that there is something
wrong with an immature, naive, view of war and the place of conflict
in literature and art. I use the terms immature and naive carefully,
even though many who hold those views are mature and sophisticated
in areas removed from a discussion of conflict and violence.
     In fact, SF-Lovers is just about the one place that I would not
have expected to see that set of attitudes.  SF has long been reviled
in the mainstream for being too concerned with war, empire, violence,
conflict, etc.  Those, criticisms, too, are misplaced.  There are
(at least) two problems with the view expressed in Larke's friend's
comments.
     First, unless done explicitly, art and literature that portray
some aspect of war do not necessarily glorify war. This is a classic
canard.  Few people or philosophies have ever glorified war for its
own sake; even the most vile prefer a peace under their control, to
war for its own sake.  Even the current academic demonology in which
businessmen are held to be the ultimate embodiment of evil by being
willing to make money selling war supplies to governments, agrees that
where nonviolent profits are available, they will be pursued instead.
     No, TESB does not glorify war for its own sake.  Rather it does
what people of good will have long done: it glorifies the just war,
the war fought against tyranny, the war to end all wars, etc.  The
fact that the evils of the Empire are not spelled out is strictly
from artistic necessity.  It is made clear that, for the sake of
the film's argument, the Empire is to be regarded as "the bad guys."
Since most people accept war against certain classes of bad guys as
being legitimate, the story requires the viewer to accept the premise,
and then goes on to make its literary point. This leads directly to
the second issue.
     Simply stated, literature needs conflict of some kind. Certain
kinds of conflict are classical forms: one is war. The point of nearly
all war stories to to present studies of people under a particular
kind of extreme stress.  I can understand a child not understanding
that the literary use of war is a vehicle for telling a story. Fine.
That is what parents are for -- to tell the kids what is happening.
What I can't understand is adults who don't understand the difference
between art and life.  Writing about war is not the same as fighting
one; enjoying a war movie is not the same as voting for someone who
will get you into a war because he or she was too stupid to be
sensitive to other \real people's/ needs and problems. It just
doesn't work that way.  Literary conflicts are not real conflicts,
and the mindless, automatic transference of one to the other just
doesn't make sense.
     This is probably more of a response than the stimulus requires.
TESB had its problems, but for goodness' sake, glorifying war was
not one of them.
		Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 AUG 1980 0652-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #44
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest     Wednesday, 13 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 44

Today's Topics: What happens at a Con?, SF Books - A Step Farther Out
                      & The Dracula Tapes, TESB - Glorifies War?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 0058-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Worldcon SFL party!

Sometime during Worldcon SFL will have its second convention party
(Westercon was the first).  I've been nominated to inform those
interested via NET mail about the particulars BEFORE we all go to
Boston.

To do that I would like to create a mailing list of Worldcon going
SFLers and keep those people informed as to goings on.  If you will
be attending Worldcon, just drop me a line (jpm@SAIL).

When you send that note in, give a preference as to what day you would
like the party to be held.  Friday and Saturday are the best bets, as
Thursday and Sunday evenings might not find us all there.  Friday has
the regional parties (all evening) and the GoH speeches (8:00pm),
while Saturday has the Masquerade (8:00pm).

We have provisional hold on a suite (whose room number I hope to give
you BEFORE Boston). It should be free Friday.  On Saturday it will be
tied up in the early evening with Masqurade things.

Enough for now.  Send you names once, send your names often!

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 1644-PDT
From: Stuart M. Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: A Step Farther Out

I also recommend this highly.  For those of you who have read (or have
been forced to read in school) the Club of Rome report THE LIMITS TO
GROWTH, ASFO is a fine rebuttal.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 0135-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: "The Dracula Tape" by Fred Saberhagen

     At last, the Count himself tells his own version of the shocking
events of 1891, to clear the noble name so vilely slandered by Bram
Stoker.  He eloquently points out the inconsistancies and transparent
falsehoods in the story as related by his enemies, and his version of
what occurred is far more believable.

     Who can deny the nobility and honor of a vampire who -- at great
personal risk to himself -- stages an elaborate show of his own
destruction rather than killing his tormentors? Who with the greatest
reluctance made Lucy a vampire in a futile attempt to save her life,
doomed by Van Helsing's quackery? (Alas that Van Helsing achieved her
murder anyway!)

     From the teaser:

     'True, the Count is capable of murder in self-defense or even for
vengeance.  True, also that he is not one to waste blood once it has
been spilled.  But consider the nobility of his actions in attempting
to preserve his beloved Mina from the vile and almost certainly fatal
attentions of the demented "Professor" Van Helsing (who as a matter
of routine attempted blood transfusions in complete ignorance of
blood types, and blamed VAMPIRISM when --surprise!-- his victim
died. Compare the restrained and civilized behavior of the Count with
that of the stake-wielding, superstition-ridden humans who attempted
to hound him and all that he loved to their deaths.

     'Let Count Dracula tell his side of the story. He asks only that
you listen with an open mind--and only then decide.'

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/13/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss whether Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back glorify war.
People who have not seen these movies may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 0922-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: more on SW criticisms

But literary conflicts ARE real conflicts, because they are the only
ones most of us will ever see. Few of us have ever fought in a war;
all we know about such things comes through what we read and see. For
people who don't read much SW could have a lot of influence. Look at
the amount of space that we've devoted here to something that barely
qualifies as SF.  Larry's friend is not naive in believing that this
stuff can go deeper than merely diversion, rather the opposite.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 at 0934-CDT
From: david at UTEXAS
Subject: Reality versus fantasy in SW n.

I must take exception to my friend Clive's point of view of reality
versus fantasy as portrayed in SWn.  The point is that in non-SF war
stories the death and destruction is portrayed in a realistic fashion.
You are shown the blood and guts and other horrible aspects of war.
Not so in SWn.  There, for instance, it makes no difference if you
lose an arm in battle, you can easily get it replaced by one even
better than the original.  So if you have no personal loss to fear,
why hesitate to fight the glorious fight?

Unlike Clive, I see little reason for optimism regarding the ability
of people, whether they be children or adults, to clearly distinguish
fantasy from reality.  I believe SWn will have, in fact has already
had, a bad influence on the way people view war, space, science
fiction, and relations with other cultures.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 14:53:27-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: SW4, killing

As regards the comments on the glorification of war, I agree that
TESB (and SW) both do that. This seems to be an effect, rather than
a cause, of the attitudes of our (adult) society. Witness the "Nuke
Iran" and similar attitudes.  It would be nice if the ethics of the
situation (specifically WHAT is wrong with the Empire, and what the
rebels are advocating to replace it) were more fully discussed, and
thereby the justification (rationalization?) for the violence would
be clear. I suppose, however, given the rest of the film, that they
are really fighting for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, and
probably favor a representative government with two houses, a
judicial and executive branch, and probably free football games. I
do, however, feel that Yoda lifting up a warship is a poor example
of militarism.  It was a demonstration that what Luke wanted to do
could indeed be done.  If Luke had been trying to lift a boulder,
Yoda would have lifted that instead.
                Ken Arnold

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/12/80 13:57:01 Re:  war, movies, fantasy

It seems to me that 80% of the reason why people enjoy TESB is BECAUSE
it is an escapist fantasy. What better way to take a deep breath than
to live through a fantasy where the forces of good (non-realistic
heroes) battle the incredibly evil forces of evil (de-humanized char-
acters that "deserve" to die) in a titanic struggle (that glorifies
war), with tremendous -but temporary- setbacks (effortless tragedy)
that nevertheless lead to the inevitable, staggering victory (falsely
manifest destiny) for the forces of good and the total eradication of
evil (violence without consequence) from the land ???

Hell, I'd buy it in hardback.

        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 at 0215-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MISREPRESENTATION IS ALSO "CONSCIENCELESS" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

First, a personal statement: In theory (and in the hands of masters
such as Gandhi and King) I have serious respect for the principles of
Non-Violence and Passive Resistance. In practice, though (and this was
the flaw I was trying to point up in regard to a similar message from
David@UTEXAS some weeks ago) they can readily support manipulation of
the naive by the unprincipled -- i.e., turn out to be just a mug's
game.

   -----

I was tempted to just smile at LARKE's friend's (let me call her "F")
flaming about TESB.  After all, as has often been stated on SF-L, and
without contradiction, it's ONLY a movie.  Moreover, however popular,
it is still only a miniscule segment of the whole complex of media
impact in our culture.

But if, however unlikely, readers might really see it as indeed a
"powerful" argument against SW/TESB, THAT misconception I can refute.

For, how much credence can be placed in any appraisal of SW/TESB
which contains glaring inaccuracies?
 
   "No life (other than a large slug) lives on the planet where
    the supreme teacher of life-force lives... a dead swamp."

F may be ignorant of the proliferation of life in a swamp, but she
might have paid attention to when, on approaching Dagobah, Luke told
R2 of "massive life-readings".  But, obviously, F's inattentiveness
led her to confuse the Space Slug's asteroid with the swamp planet.
In fact, it looks suspiciously as if she didn't really see TESB at
all but just read her kid's comic book -- or else how could she have
overlooked all those lovely, slithery snakes!?
 
   "Luke's own Forcetest is to kill someone in a cave."

To the contrary!  Luke was abjured NOT to take his weapons, and his
handling of the encounter there was referred to as a "failure".
 
   "No one ever weeps for the dead."

Admittedly Leia is made of sterner stuff, ("We have no time for our
sorrows, Commander"), but what is Luke doing when the camera returns
to him after slowly panning the Tattooine homestead to rest on those
two smouldering skeletons?  Or, when he sits huddled in grief at the
loss of Ben, as the Falcon is leaving the Death Star?  Was it shown
as a matter of no concern to Obi-Wan when it felt "as if millions of
voices suddenly cried out in terror... and were suddenly silenced"?

   "The purpose of the lightsaber is to kill."

Then it has certainly proven singularly inefficient so far, having
scored merely 2 arms, one hand, one dematerialization, and the
evisceration of a dead taun-taun to SAVE a life.

   "See, war doesn't really hurt!"

Oh, go see the film!  And watch Luke out on the gantry as he cradles
the stub of his lost hand in his other arm.  Look at that face, ugly
with pain.  Doesn't hurt, hunh?!  (And remember those skeletons.)
 
   "The only bad thing we can be sure about the empire is they
    all speak with British accents, all wear Mao jackets,..." etc.

No Sandcrawler-full of Jawas exterminated?  No innocent homestead
devastated?  (And, of course, no smouldering skeletons!)  Oh, well,
that was just a little My Lai incident, nothing to really signify.
Yeah... and Earth-like Alderaan still sails blue and serene through
the heavens of that faraway galaxy.

(Incidentally, for any who share F's Anglophobia, the "bad guys" with
 British accents are only Tarkin, Ozzel, Piett, Veers, and Needa.
 Vader's, over all that wheezing, is "stage speech", but nevertheless
 American. And if British accents are marks of evil, we'd better be
 plenty suspicious of that Obi-Wan fellow!)

   The cantina scene "was a wonderful combination of strange
   creatures enjoying one another, engaged in peaceful activities"

Well, as a hangout of pirates, smugglers, hit men, and mean drunks
who relish picking fights with green farm kids, Ben's "This place
can be a little rough" was at best an understatement. But "peaceful"
is nonsense.
 
.............................................................

More could be said, noting lines such as "Wars do not make one great"
or "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge or defense, never for attack"
or "Don't give in to hate!" (and Luke's crucial vulnerability when he
does).  The only line supporting F would be in SW-4, "I can't get
involved", and John Donne has answered that one.

If indeed "Lucas is creating the mythology [which] will color the
subconscious of the growing generation", F's kid might be better
off than s/he would have been without that influence.

Purdue social psychologist Robert Baron, author of HUMAN AGGRESSION
(1977), has pointed out that children's games and fantasy life in
other eras had no question of who were the good guys and who were
the bad guys.  But today the combination of violence as shown on
television and of criminals often being depicted "almost as heros"
in the news media has changed all that.  He cites movies such as
DEATH WISH, with its vigilante justice, and the DIRTY HARRY type
of films which could confuse the young in their assessment of
what's right and what's wrong.
 
BAMBI is sweet, but Godzilla has awfully big feet.
 
And even the STAR WARS series may have 'redeeming social values'.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 AUG 1980 0642-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #45
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Thursday, 14 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 45

Today's Topics: What happens at a Con? - Party, SF Books - Title/Plot,
                 SF Movies - Final Countdown & Another Horrible One, 
                          TESB - Who's Who & Glorifies War?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 AUG 1980 1139-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: party

  I will of course be going to Noreascon, although I make no promises
as to being anything but asleep when I'm not working. I would strongly
suggest Friday, as the GoH speeches are likely to be over by 9:30
while the masquerade will run close to midnight.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 0216-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: My title request [SFL V2 #41]

The story was "To Die in Italbar" by Zelazny. Thanks go to KLH, GSB,
DYER, and AYERS.  Upon being reminded of the title, I remember it,
(not too well) and I thought I had it so I was going to reread it
and send in a review.  Now I can't find it...  Oh well --JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Reviews of the FINAL COUNTDOWN

   Brief: pretty, but the plot logic is thin.  Better than, but in
          the same class as, the Black Hole.
   For some 'good' reviews by the critics, see the files at the sites
   listed below. All reviews were taken from the New York Times and
   AP news wires.                       --  Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>


Everyone should obtain the file from the site which is most
convenient for them. If you are unable to do so, please send mail
to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make sure that
you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Jon Solomon, and Jim McGrath for providing
space for the reviews on their systems, and again to Jim McGrath
for compiling the material.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI        AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS FCNTDN
PARC-MAXC     [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLovers-Final.TXT
Rutgers       Ps:<Solomon>Final.Countdown
SU-AI         FINAL.NS[1,jpm]
MIT-Multics   >udd>PDO>Lamson>sf-lovers>final-countdown-reviews

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1980 0305-PDT (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: a BAD movie

In my never ending search for the poor, the awful, the truly BAD
science-fiction films, I am continually amazed to find that however
far down in the muck you search, there are always more "gems" waiting
to be uncovered.  Something like turning over logs in a forest --
there are always more disgusting creatures waiting under the logs
to say hello in their own special way.

Tonight I was "treated" (to use a term from the Spanish Inquisition)
to a FINE film: "Mars Needs Women".  This 1964 thriller consists
largely of dramatic shots of a FEDTRO loudspeaker mounted on a wall.
(I know it was FEDTRO, because the name was prominently placed where
it was continuously visible.) We would then hear all sorts of fasci-
nating communications between Earth government and the Mars invaders.
I would like to tell you more, but my stomach has been bothering me
since the film started (apparently a direct effect), and further
discussion will probably make it worse. I can only suggest that if
this amazing movie appears in your area (probably at around 0400
hours), it is certainly worth watching if you are interested in
reaching a low exceeded in depth only by "The Creeping Terror"
and "Plan Nine From Outer Space".

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 at 0727-CDT
From: clive at UTEXAS
Subject: David@UTEXAS' recent message to SF-Lovers

   "I must take exception to my friend Clive's point of view of
    reality ... Unlike Clive, I see little reason for optimism..."

Sorry, but I can't take credit for the point of view and the optimism!
If you check yesterday's digest, you'll find that the message you were
responding to was sent by CLYDE, not CLIVE. Don't worry--I've spent my
entire life answering to "Clyde", "Cleve" and even "Olive", and I've
long since resigned myself to the fact that if I ever hope to hear
people get my name right, I'll probably have to go live in England,
where the name is a little more common.  But I bet this is the first
time Clyde has had his name converted to Clive!

(Clyde, maybe you'd better hurry up with that implementation of full
 names in the "From:" field!)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 at 0906-CDT
From: clyde at UTEXAS
Subject: Reply to Clive@UTEXAS' recent message to SF-Lovers

     Well, Clive, as a matter of fact I have been called Clive on a
number of occasions, especially just after coming to work at the UT
Computation Center.  It's enough to make a guy use his middle name
........

        Clyde (Bill) Hoover

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/14/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss whether Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back glorify war.
People who have not seen these movies may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 at 1406-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS (King Ables)
Subject: Re: LARKE's friend's comments ([SFL V2 #42] 11-Aug-80)

I, too, am a bit "taken aback" by these comments. However, her strong
statement does make a point. Even though the Star Wars series started
out to be more or less innocent fantasy adventure, the second of the
group is much more grim than the first (or 5th than the 4th if you're
counting). I think she takes the story too seriously, though,
differently than the way I take it too seriously.  Maybe in our
entertainment, we do crave violence to some degree, but humans are
barbarians and will continue to be for quite some time.  It's the
nature of the beast, so to speak.  While there is something to think
about in what she has said, I would much rather sit back and enjoy
the story for what it does to my imagination. Even if I feel it really
is happening somewhere and feel like I'm part of it, I don't get it
confused with my reality (even if I am referred to as a "Star Wars
Trekkie" by one of my friends). Deep down, I know it's just a story,
and violent stories have been a part of human existence all along
(Mythology, much old European literature, etc.).  If we don't mix
our reality and fantasy, we'll be OK.

                                        -ka

P.S. And yes, I know it's partially aimed at kids, but wasn't anyone
     ever scared by The Wizard of Oz?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 1015-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-1
Subject: Re: STRIKING BACK AT THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

No, but there's something wrong with your friend -- she overreacted,
to put it mildly. The comments ARE valid, but are much too strongly
stated and, at least in a couple of cases, she apparently misunder-
stood the intent -- for instance, "Luke's own Forcetest is to kill
someone in a cave" - remember, he FAILED his test by killing the
person he encountered there; also, the freezing (and smelling) of
the Taun-Taun -- it was understood when Han left that the Taun-Taun
couldn't survive the exposure, and the animal was deliberately
sacrificed that a (supposedly important) HUMAN life could be saved.
And how much compassion would YOU give a Taun-Taun, anyway!? And as
for the bar scene in the first film, that was a piece of pure fluff,
and as likely to misguide anyone's psyche as anything else in either
film. Your friend should visit an East St. Louis bar some night, and
see just how well a "combination of strange creatures" gets along
together in REAL life! It can make Sam Pekinpah look like Disney
...speaking of which, it just goes to show that ANYTHING will be
flamed at by SOMEBODY -- you should hear my ex- flame about how
racist and sexist the old Disney movies are! (actually, they are,
kinda...but again, an OVERreaction)

Besides, there is no obligation on the part of every single
movie-maker to turn out an "All Quiet on the Western Front" -- If
Lucas wants to make a piece of schmaltz, he has a perfect right to.

Rich Zellich

------------------------------

Date: 11 AUG 1980 1318-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Striking Back at TESB

  LARKE's friend raises some interesting points, but I'm inclined
to feel that she overstates her case. Attempting to step aside from
some of my own strong feelings (mostly) in favor of TESB, I'd make
the following answers:

  The taun-taun is not treated compassionately, true; but I'd rather
have protagonists who can show compassion to people (Luke trying to
pull his buddy out of the wreckage, for instance).  Han's remark
about the animal's smell is uncouth for a drawing room, but he's
out in a blizzard and is still playing his own role of hard-shelled
wisecracker.

  A valid point about the question of the evilness of the Empire,
although it shouldn't be necessary for them to blow up a peaceful
planet in every film to establish their villainous credentials. The
Empire's commander is quite sufficiently evil, though; Vader tortures
Han and turns him over to a bounty hunter (a debatable act from a
legal standpoint as well, since Han is wanted because he dumped a
smuggled cargo rather than getting through with it).

  Hand or no hand, I don't see Luke as particularly triumphant at
the end of the movie. Hopeful, yes, but with the chief villain for
a father he's not exactly happy--and how long would you want the
scenes of him suffering to go on? We get a sufficiency of closeups
of his anguished face just before he drops.

  There is a \complete/ misreading of the scene of Luke in the cave
on Dagobah. Lucas/Kirshner couldn't have made that more obviously
an illusion in Luke's mind if they'd included pink clouds and
perfume --- and Yoda makes it quite clear that by resorting to the
light saber \instead/ of the Force (which should be able to abolish
the illusion) Luke failed an important part of the training.
  And the swamp on Dagobah is far from lifeless if you're paying
attention --- although I'd call it a valuable lesson that "Life"
isn't necessarily pretty by our standards.  Who are we to judge
what an elvish gnome finds homey?

  And if all the creatures in the bar were enjoying each other
peaceably, why didn't some of them object when a couple of randoms
started picking on an obvious tenderfoot (Luke)? If you pay attention,
the sequence is obvious: one of the randoms draws, the bartender yells
"No blasters!" (and is that any indication of peace?  It sounds more
like the typical western bar where you can beat each other to a pulp
if you don't hurt the bystanders) and Obi-Wan cuts in --- and note
that Obi-Wan doesn't go for the body (a much easier target when the
opponent doesn't have a sword, as any other fencer will tell you)
even though he has almost no time to act.  Hell, it's \announced/
that the bar is a rough place!

  I think LARKE's correspondent is simply overimpressed by the
violent aspects of the film (which, if you recall my recent remarks
on censorship, were partly in response to the unrealistic rating
system in this country). Obviously it would be better if the Empire
could be shut out by judicious use of the Force --- but why do you
think Vader and/or the rest of the Empire wiped out the rest of the
Jedi knights? (The implication of SW4 is that Vader did most of this
personally, through treachery.) Again, the severest weakness in TESB
that this points to is the assumption of background on the part of
the viewer --- and I'm not sure that that is a weakness, since there
are other, written series I'm familiar with which are annoying
specifically because of the amount of background they repeat
(often verbatim) in each story.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 14:010:42 EDT
From: Drew Powles <dpowles at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: SW criticism

Bravo for HJJH at UTEXAS and levelheadedness. What was needed was
a logical, point-by-point examination and refutation of each of
LARKE's friend's statements on SW and TESB. HJJH has given us this.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 AUG 1980 0559-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #46
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Friday, 15 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 46

 Today's Topics:     SF TV: Dyson, D&D Revisited, Query - Fusion,
                  SF Bloopers - Space Sound, SF Books - Golem^100 &
                Dragons, TESB - Glorifies War?, SF Movies - Countdown
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 1254-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Dyson on Cavett show

Dick Cavett's show tonight (Friday August 15) at 7pm on your local
PBS station will have Freeman Dyson, physicist and astronomer, as
the guest.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 1635-PDT
From: Mclure at SRI-KL
Subject: Egbert update ( also see [SFL V1 #93-99] )

A spokesman for the hospital where Egbert (the Dungeon kid) is
currently suffering from a self-inflicted gun wound now says he
has suffered "irretrievable brain damage and he will never recover
a meaningful existence." They don't know if and when they'll pull
the plug on the machines supporting him.

------------------------------

Date: 14 AUG 1980 2336-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Help on fusion power article for Omni

     I have been given a contract by Ben Bova to write an article on
fusion power for a future issue of Omni.  The article will cover the
impact of fusion power on the future course of society, ultimately
leading to the launch of a fusion powered interstellar spacecraft.
In the course of the 3000 word article, I am supposed to explain how
all the present candidate techniques for fusion work (in non-techical
language), as well as bring out some unusual possible side effects of
a fusion society.

   1. If any of you know of some unusual side-benefits of a fusion
      society, I would appreciate Journal name, year, page, and
      author.

   2. If any of you feel you are a "local (in either space or time)
      wizard" on some aspect of fusion, I would appreciate your
      volunteering as a critic of the next-to-final draft. I don't
      like to get my physics wrong, especially for the
      technically-interested readers of Omni.

 Thanks,

            Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date:  14 August 1980 03:36 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  sound fx in space

Think of them as navigational aids.  You can use sound to tell where
things are and in a situation in which many things need to be looked
at the computer system driving the "window" (you didn't think it was a
piece of glass) could calculate trajectories, watch your eyeballs and
let your hear any important things happening.  We did stuff like this
at the Arch Mach all the time - you could even yell at the computer
and have it insult you back or sing new wave ....

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 2214-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Bester's latest (no spoiler)

It's probably safe to say that Alfred Bester's latest book GOLEM^100
(Simon and Schuster) is the ultimate Freudian SF novel. He has gone
far beyond the Freudian overtones in THE DEMOLISHED MAN and THE STARS
MY DESTINATION with an extremely vivid tale of a quest for the Id.
However, a major difference is the lack of a central anti-hero char-
acter rebelling against society as there had been in his two earlier
famous works.  This change detracts somewhat from the tale. Instead,
we are given three characters: a Black woman with extraordinary
vision, a highly-paid chemical-sniffer, and a police investigator.
Their headlong search for a murdering 'monster' takes them hither
and thither through a near-future gigantic city.

As is usual with Bester, the tale is fairly straightforward. But once
again, his writing style takes grip of the reader like few SF authors
can. Also present are many gruesome scenes and explicit language not
found in his earlier works. Some may find this offensive.  However,
the story is enriched a great deal.

The B&W illustrations by Jack Gaughan intertwine the text in several
places, being more essential to the narrative than is the case with
most other illustrated SF novels. And in places, they extend for
upwards of 40 pages and are quite well done. Several scenes involve
a stream-of-consciousness writing style that Bester hasn't practiced
before, and it is quite refreshing.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 1009-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: Mythical books and a new strange book

I was just browsing in the St. Louis Public Library today and
ran across a book in the new-books shelf which I realized I must
immediately bring to the attention of SF-Lovers.  I haven't read
it yet, just skimmed through, and find it rather interesting, in
several regards.

The book is DRAGONS, by Pamela Wharton Blanpied, 1980, Warner Books.
It purports to be "An Introduction to the Modern Infestation".  The
book is described as a monograph on the "habits, anatomy, psychology,
and lifestyles of the elusive quadruped", the dragon.  Full of
photographs, charts, drawings, maps, and footnotes, it includes
five pages of bibliography, which is where the subject reference
to "mythical books" comes in.

I find it hard to believe this.  This is well-written, in the
traditional style of pop-science monographs, and obviously took
quite some effort.  A notable achievement in the history of spoofs,
I would say.  The library classified this as Dewey #398.469; any
librarians out there care to say what that category is defined as?
I would consider this to truly be SF -- check your local libraries
for it, but don't expect to find it under the SF section.

In the "Suggestions for Further Reading" section, before the
bibliography, there is a sentence, "LeGuin's work from the East
and West Reaches may be read with profit." LeGuin is not listed
in the bibliography, so I do not know if the reference truly is
to Ursula K. LeGuin, which would qualify this as an
SF-book-referencing-another-SF-book.  I expected to find some
reference to Anne McCaffery in the bibliography, but it is all
spurious entries.

Simply amazing.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 14 AUG 1980 2143-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL

     As a matter of interest for those who are arguing "Empire's"
glorification of war and violence, I heard on the news this morning
that both Sweden and Norway have banned the film for viewing by anyone
under the age of 15.  The reason?  Too violent. Norway also plans to
cut ten minutes of the film.

Stan Forward

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 11:34 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: poor ole' taun-taun

In the discussions of violence and TESB, the point has been made
that compassion towards humans is more important than towards
the taun-taun. So, that motivates me to ask a question that has
bothered me for a long time: To wit, I never have understood the
almost-universal attitude that a human life and the feelings of
a human are supposed to be more important than those of another
creature. About the only justification I can see for this attitude
is if the other creature is incapable of pain or thought or is
attacking. Otherwise how on earth can anyone have a right to harm
it?  How can people justify killing animals for food, when many
plant sources are available, for example (and when the experiments
that indicate that plants "feel" have been thoroughly discredited)?
Is it all based on the belief that our species somehow has the right
to rule the universe and everything else is expendable? Or what?????
Explanations would be appreciated.

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1980 1020-EDT (Wednesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: latest tesb murmurings.

Ta throw in my few pennies worth:

     From what Larry's friend had to say, then reading HJJH's and
others 'rebuttals' I have a feeling that even if Larry's friend saw
these messages, little would be taken with an open mind (I hope I am
wrong) we hardly see children and women running around monestaries???
(after all these are the closest real world analogies I could come up
with for Yoda and his planet. No, no-one ever comes out and says that
the empire is bad because so and so and the Rebellion is good because
of so-and-so, but by observing the behavior of the characters on both
sides, I would rather see the rebellion win.
Remember SW: (paraphrasing liberally)

   Now that the emperor has disolved the Senate, the local
   governments will/can be ruled with fear.

(I am not sure if this is from the book or the movie)...in any case
not my kind of people. I could flame for pages and pages, but I would
not be saying much more that others have.  Decide for yourself, it
matters little, what has been done has (probably) already been done,
for better or worse.
                                Doug

P.S. If you are worried about America's youth, I see the problem
     as lack of Discipline by Parents and not movies per se.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 10:16 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC

Many have mentioned that they think that SW and TESB should go into
more detail on the causes of the conflict and "the ethics of the
situation" are. SW and TESB are parts 4 and 5 of a 9 part epic. I
suspect that by the time the last flick in the saga has appeared,
we will have found the answers to that question. Of course, at the
present rate of one SW saga every 3 or so years, the justification
for all the conflict may not be known until our kids are grown up
into fanatic war-mongering devils as feared by 'F'.

Why is it that people like 'F' seem so out of control of the lives
of their children that a fun movie like SW or TESB is expected to
have more influence on their values than they themselves as parents?
For that matter, is a story about 'Good' knocking the hell out of
'Evil' necessarily bad for them?  I have been reading SF since I
was very young, seeing violent movies (blood and guts horror movies,
Jaws, etc.) and I still claim to value life as sacred, reject war
as the solution to the world's problems, and fight violence with
non-violence. My opinion is that parents have been failing in their
job of instilling values in their children and using sociological
studies on the effect of violence on TV and in the movies as excuses
for the lack of parental guidance that gives children the ability to
distinguish between escapist fantasy and reality.  When was the last
time you heard of mommy and daddy talking to Johnny about the right
and wrong of the bloody massacre he just saw at the Bijou last
Saturday?

        --   Larry   --

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 1546-PDT
From: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI (Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand))
Subject: The Final Countdown

Since there was some traffic on SF-L lately on this film, I thought I
would pass on this piece from "The Hollywood Reporter" (a film and TV
trade publication) Aug 14 '80:

   $6 MIL "COUNTDOWN"

      "The Final Countdown" a suspense drama set aboard the nuclear
       carrier USS Nimitz, continues its run with a 10-day gross of
       $6,100,000 at 630 theatres, announced Gene Goodman, United
       Artists senior vp for domestic sales.

-your Tinsletown monitor

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/15/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
The Final Countdown.  People who have not seen this movie may not wish
to read any further.


------------------------------

MASEK@MIT-MC 08/05/80 19:47:45 Re: The Final Countdown

Last Saturday I made the mistake of going to see the Final Countdown.
It is a Turkey.  The science is mediocre and the story is bad.  Its
high points were 1) the theatre was air conditioned, 2) the Japanese
pilot's reaction to Nimitz's knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack,
and 3) the missle attack on a Japanese Zero.  I would give it a 3.

In the story the USS Nimitz goes thru a time warp to December 6, 1940.
After they realize what is happening (and they shoot down 2 Zeros using
2 F-14(?)'s) they decide to destroy the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
However just before they intercept the attack the Nimitz goes back to
our time.
                                                Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 AUG 1980 0630-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #47
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Saturday, 16 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:  SF Movies - Countdown & Twonky, SF Books - L of L,
                  & Leguin & Ringworld & Ratner's Star & Golem^100,
               What happens at a Con - Schedule, TESB - Glorifies War?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1980 0756-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>

The Final Countdown: it's ok.  See CaddyShack a second time if that's
your alternative.  Still, it's a whale of a lot better than the last
Kirk Douglas film I mentioned here (ie, Saturn 3).  Let's just hope
they keep improving at this rate.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 at 0955-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: The Twonky

     How many of us remember the classic Henry Kuttner short, "The
Twonky"?  Well, imagine my surprise when the Sherman Theater's SF
Film Festival dug out a full-length feature film titled "The Twonky"!

     It was made by Arch Oboler.  Unless you're a trivia expert (I'm
not) you'll need to be told that it was he who started the classic
radio program "Lights Out".  The movie starred Hans Conreid in a 1951
role.  It was rather faithful to the story, but much lighter in tone;
in fact, it was a comedy with a happy ending, which in fact given the
production values they were forced to work with was a much better
choice than a faithful rendition would have been.  I had never heard
of this film before, and I cannot understand why not.  It was VERY
funny and everyone had a great time.

     As an interesting sidelight, the film was introduced by Arch
Oboler in person, and Hans Conreid was in the audience.  Neither of
them had seen the film in 29 years.  This was the first commercial
film to use magstripe sound recording, and the sound was VERY good
for a film of that age.

     If you ever have a chance to see this film, don't just regard
it as a curiosity.  It's worth seeing on its own merits.

------------------------------

Date:  9 AUG 1980 0923-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL

     By the way, I finally got a hold of "Lord of Light". Overlooking
the fact that I HATE multisyllabic names, especially in a large cast,
and ESPECIALLY when the first three syllables are almost identical,
and REALLY REALLY ESPECIALLY when everybody has three or FOUR
polysyllabic names which are frequently exchanged -- the book was
okay.  But if they make a movie out of the thing, they can have it.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1980 1441-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: dragons

The reference to LeGuin seems to be a clear pointer to the Earthsea
Trilogy, an excellent set.

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 1821-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: Ringworld stability (see [SFL V2 #32])

Some time ago, a question was raised about the stability of Niven's
Ringworld.  This question is resolved in "Ringworld Engineers" (it
is unstable - with disastrous consequences).

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 1341-PDT
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: From the NYT Book Review

Paperbacks: New and Noteworthy

Ratner's Star, by Don Delillo. (Vintage, $3.95)

A 14-year-old mathematical genius who is a Nobel Laureate is summoned
to a computer-radio-telescope complex called Space Brain to decode a
radio message from a distant star, and while there he encounters such
a motley collection of weirdos that all reason goes awry.  A surre-
alistic staire on the modern scientific mind, very funny in a nervous
kind of way.

--If you don't know why there is no Nobel prize in mathematics, ask a
  friend its a great story.

--In passing: Stanislaw Ulam (I believe) was on a recent Nova, where
  he explained that Teller was not the father of the Hydrogen Bomb.
  He said Von Neuman impregnated Teller with the idea, at which time
  Teller worked out the details.  I guess this makes him Mother of
  the Hydrogen Bomb.

--And...I have frequently seen Carl Djerassi referred to as the Father
  of Birth Control.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1980 (Friday) 0851-EST
From: DYER at NBS-10
Subject: Golem 100 -- *Y*E*C*H*H**!*!*!*

     Some months ago (at Disclave '80) I made the mistake of
purchasing a copy of Alfred Bester's GOLEM-100.  I quickly found out
that the only redeeming feature of this book is the art inside, and
you can get that for free by simply opening the book at the bookstand.
I have never finished GOLEM-100, I got 150 pp or so into it, gave up,
and went back to reading ATTACK OF THE ANT MEN (don't ask....) which,
by comparison, is almost decent reading.

     There are some 'cutesy' things about GOLEM-100.  The art inside
(which is, unfortunately, wasted on this book.) The murder scenes near
the beginning of the book (which are \very/ original.)  The way in
which (almost all of) the main characters get killed off, one by one.
The surprise ending (yes, I skipped ahead....but it wasn't worth it.)

     I very much enjoyed Bester's earlier works.  THE COMPUTER
CONNECTION (also called EXTRO and THE INDIAN GIVER) I read through
in one sitting.  THE STARS MY DESTINATION is a classic of sf. It is
too bad that Bester could not equal his previous acheivements with
GOLEM-100.  It is too bad that I bought the book....

     Anybody want a very slightly used hardback copy of GOLEM-100?
*Cheap*?

                -Landon-

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1980 (Friday) 0844-EST
From: PALEVICH at NBS-10
Subject: Golem^100

I read Golem^100 a month ago, and was very disturbed by the ending.

Never the less, I seem to recall reading the first half (or third)
of the book (the part about Mr. Wish, but without any of the Golem
or Hive scenes) several years ago. Can anyone tell me what shorter
story Bester has incorporated into Golem^100?

                                Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Date:  15 August 1980 11:37 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Golem^100

Sounds like an expansion of Bester's "The Four Hour Fugue" - same
characters, same plot.  The short story was great.

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Editor
Subject: Programs for NorEasCon II

Chip Hitchcock has provided a copy of the General Interest and
Fannish Programs, and the schedule of Guest of Honor appearances
at NorEasCon II.  Copies of the programs have been established
in files at the sites listed below. Everyone should obtain the
file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you are
unable to do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and
I will be happy to make sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods for providing
space for the materials on their systems, and to Chip Hitchcock
for making the programs available to us.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI        AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS WRLDCN
PARC-MAXC     [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLovers-WorldCon.TXT
Rutgers       PS:<SOLOMON>WORLD-CON.GUEST-SCHEDULE
SU-AI         WRLDCN.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics   >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>worldcon-program

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date:  16 August 1980 00:56 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  TESB opens in Sweden

     Today is the first day that TESB will be shown in Sweeden. 
Unfortunately, it opens under a cloud.  The Swedish Film Board has
decided that the film cannot be seen by those under 15, claiming that
the film contains excessive violence and is too scary.  This will, of
course, affect the box office receipts. The promotors were expecting
that 15% of the audiance would be from this age group.

(Source: local radio news program)

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/16/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
continue the discussion about the taun-tauns and whether Star Wars
and The Empire Strikes Back glorify war.  People who have not seen
these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1980 0756-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Killing the poor taun-tauns

The two major sources for ethics that I know about are (a) religious
and (b) philosophical.  Religious ethics are generally given as
exegesis from some holy writ; philosophical ethics are generally
elucidated as moral norms from the prevailing ethos. In a majority
of the cases I am aware of, both kinds make a drastic distinction
between (say) killing a person and an animal. If you want to throw
out the accepted ethics of the society and reason from first prin-
ciples as Karen seems to, I don't see anything to keep us from
killing >people< as well as animals (cogito ergo sum. So what?).
[Besides, it was my understanding that the taun-taun had just died
from exhaustion+exposure by the time Han sliced it open. Of course,
that does mean he ran it to death...]

------------------------------

Date: 15 August 1980 17:09-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  pore 'ole taun-taun

Seemed to me that Solo didn't sacrifice the Taun-Taun, he merely used
its dead body.  We weren't that repulsed by 'ALIVE', the story of the
people who ate their friends in order to survive, so why should we be
angry at Han here? True enough, Solo was warned that his Taun-Taun
might die, but again he also knew that *he* might die, too. Using the
Taun-Taun was the only way that he could reach his friend. I'm sure
that Solo would have never intentionally sacrificed the Taun-Taun,
but, who can blame him for using its body to give life?

------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 08/15/80 23:57:27 Re: poor ole' taun-taun

Poor Old Taun-Taun?

     Solo sacrifices an animal to save one of the Alliance's
most NEEDED `warriors'.  We know from other NON-ENGLISH speaking
intelligences having been seen that the Taun-Taun is ONLY an ANIMAL
or SOMEBODY would have been talking to it!  Solo also KNOWS it will
die, and comments on seeing the officer to which he spoke in HELL.
As in HE KNOWS THAT HE MIGHT DIE TOO.

     For Solo to be expected to be concerned about an animal, must we
assume he is not more concerned with his own life?  And that in going
out to save Luke, he is WILLINGLY laying his life "On the line"?  Does
he expect to find one small human type out there in all that pretty
snow?  And what if Solo meets up with one of those things (Wampa Ice
Creature Indeed!) that tried to have Luke for dinner?

     I think (from what an over-the-shoulder observer just said) I can
rest my case.

                                                        {Matt}

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1980 1605-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject: And DIRTY HARRY Too

So what's all this then about TESB not having been specific enough
about the nature of the baddies?  To borrow from D.H., If someone
blows up my home planet, and kills my aunt and uncle, and then comes
running out of an alley towards me, with a light saber in his hand,
I don't stop to ask him if he's collecting for the Red Cross-

I BLAST THE F___ER!!!

-W.W.

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 08/15/80 09:11:49 Re: TESB

    I hope over the weekend to have my friend respond to the comments
published so far answering her charges against TESB. You should be
able to see them Monday or Tuesday. Thanks to all of you who have
added to this discussion. 

Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 AUG 1980 0231-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #48
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Sunday, 17 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 48

Today's Topics: Landmark SF Bibliography Query, Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 1620-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>

     I would like to put together a list of the most important SF work
of the last 50 years.  Obvious candidates are the recipients of the
various awards: Hugo, Nebula, Jupiter.  However, some very good works
have had to compete against each other for these awards, and a number
of worthwhile books are necessarily overlooked.  These nominees make
excellent candidates for the list. This list would be a particularly
useful document for readers who would otherwise spend an enormous
amount of time discovering the works on their own accord, even if
they had that much spare time.

Here are the eligibility criteria for this bibliography query:

1. The work should be considered classic: landmark novels, single
   author collections, collaborations, or series that established
   new categories within SF or substantially altered older ones.

   Single author collections are included so that authors who are
   far more talented at shorter works are not excluded. For example,
   Ellison's "Alone Against Tomorrow: Stories of Alienation in
   Speculative Fiction" and Varley's "The Persistence of Vision"
   could be considered since both Ellison and Varley are better at
   writing short stories than novels and these represent their best
   collections as well as being considered very significant works.
   
2. Strict fantasy works are not eligible.

   All of the works nominated should have a strong SF flavor. They
   may include elements from fantasy, provided that those elements
   do not overshadow the SF nature of the work. Saberhagen's "Empire
   of the East" is an example of a novel which includes magic and
   demons but retains the nature and assumptions of an SF work.
   Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" series, and Le Guin's "Earthsea
   Trilogy" are examples of ineligible fantasy works.

3. Juvenile books are not eligible.

   By juvenile are meant books that were aimed strictly at the
   juvenile market (and received as such). For example, Asimov's
   "Lucky Starr and The Oceans of Venus" would not be eligible.
   One that was originally intended as a juvenile but received
   as non-juvenile is Heinlein's "Starship Troopers.", which
   would be eligible.

4. A story or novel series is eligible in itself.

   There is a distinction between nominating an entire series, and
   nominating only one book from a series, because the remainder of
   the series is not particularly notable.  For example, you can
   nominate only Herbert's novel "Dune" and exclude "Dune Messiah"
   and "Children of Dune", or you can nominate the series as the
   "Dune Trilogy". Also note that a series does not have to consist
   only of novels to be eligible.  For example, Niven's Known Space
   series, or Asimov's positronic robot series are both eligible,
   although they have never been collected in a single book.

This poll will be run somewhat differently from the earlier
bibliography queries, because of the potential for a very large
number of responses. The poll will consist of three steps:

  1. An initial list of nominations is being distributed through
     SF-LOVERS today.  For the next week people are invited to
     nominate other works for inclusion in the list by sending
     the title and author of the work to POLL@MIT-AI. You may
     include commentary or a review of the work if you wish,
     but that is not necessary to nominate the work.
  2. The following week the final list of nominations along with
     any commentary will be made available for FTP distribution.
     People will then be invited to review any of the works or
     to comment on whether or not specific works that have been
     nominated should be included in the final list.
  3. Lastly, the list will be pruned based on the comments that
     everyone has submitted.  The final list and representative
     reviews will be made availble for FTP distribution and
     included in the archives.


     The following list of initial nominees was culled from three
sources: the various awards and nominees, del Rey's book "The World of
Science Fiction", and Nicholl's "The Science Fiction Encyclopedia."


                    Initial List of Nominations
                    ---------------------------

Aldiss, B.  Greybeard
-----.  Hothouse
Anderson, P.  Brain Wave
Asimov, I.  The End of Eternity
-----.  The Foundation Trilogy
          (1) Foundation
          (2) Foundation and Empire
          (3) Second Foundation
-----.  The Gods Themselves
Ballard, J.G.  The Crystal World
Bester, A.  The Demolished Man
-----.  The Stars My Destination
Blish, J.  A Case of Conscience
Brackett, L.  The Long Tomorrow
Bradbury, R.  Fahrenheit 451
-----.  The Martian Chronicles
Bradley, M.  The Heritage of Hastur
Brunner, J.  Stand on Zanzibar
Budrys, A.  Rogue Moon
Cherryh, C.J.  Brothers of Earth
Clarke, A.  The City and the Stars
-----.  Rendezvous with Rama
Clement, H.  Mission of Gravity
Clifton, M. and Riley, F.  They'd Rather be Right
De Camp, L.  Lest Darkness Fall
Delany,	S.  Babel-17
-----.  The Einstein Intersection
Del Rey, L.  Nerves
Dick, P.  The Man in the High Castle
Dickson, G.  Dorsai!
Disch, T.  Camp Concentration
Ellison, H.  Alone Against Tomorrow:
               Stories of Alienation in Speculative Fiction
Farmer, P.  To Your Scattered Bodies Go
Haldeman, J.  The Forever War
Harrison, H.  Deathworld
Heinlein, R.  Double Star
-----.  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
-----.  The Past Through Tomorrow
-----.  Starship Troopers
-----.  Stranger in a Strange Land
Herbert, F.  Dune
Hubbard, L.R.  Fear
Keyes, D.  Flowers for Algernon
Knight, D.  Turning On
Laumer, K.  A Plague of Demons
Le Guin, U.  The Dispossessed
-----.  The Left Hand of Darkness
Leiber, F.  The Big Time
-----.  Gather, Darkness!
-----.  The Wanderer
McCaffrey, A.  Dragonflight
McIntyre, V.  Dreamsnake
Miller, W.  A Canticle for Leibowitz
Niven, L.  Ringworld
Niven, L. and Pournelle, J.  The Mote in God's Eye
Panshin, A.  Rite of Passage
Pohl, F.  Gateway
-----.  Man Plus
Robinson, S.  Stardance
Shaw, B.  A Wreath of Stars
Silverberg, R.  Dying Inside
-----.  A Time of Changes
Simak, C.  A Heritage of Stars
-----.  Way Station
Smith, C.  The Best of Cordwainer Smith
Smith, E.E.  First Lensman
Spinrad, N.  Bug Jack Barron
Stapledon, O.  Star Maker
Sturgeon, T.  More Than Human
Tubb, E.C.  The Winds of Gath
Vance, J.  The Durdane Trilogy
             (1) The Anome
             (2) The Brave Free Men
             (3) The Asutra
Van Vogt, A.E.  Slan
Varley, J.  The Persistence of Vision
Wilhelm, K.  Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang
Williamson, J.  The Humanoids
Wyndham, J.  The Day of the Triffids
Zelazny, R.  This Immortal
-----.  Lord of Light

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/17/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss some apparent anomalies within Niven's Known Space series.
Spoilers for PROTECTOR and other stories/novels in the series are
involved. People who are not familiar with the series may not wish
to read any further.


------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 08/10/80 15:08:12 Re: LLOYD's query about Protector

I believe Home is never mentioned in any other part of the known space
series.  Ringworld Engineers does not illuminate this problem at all.
A cheap but viable excuse that Niven could give is that the protectors
on Home carefully hide themselves or go away or something, as they
feel that is most beneficial to the humans in the rest of Known Space,
and that they are Out There Somewhere.  However, I don't think Niven
has ever tried to make any excuse for their fate.  The Known Space
universe has gotten quite big and involved, and even someone as
top-notch as Niven is bound to have trouble holding it together.

Now, what I *really* want to see is a novel set on Wunderland. Niven
has dropped all sorts of hints about the interesting social structure
and revolutionary activities going on there; I want to see it up
close!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 at 2137-CDT
From: clyde at UTEXAS (Clyde Hoover)
Subject: Known Space, Ringworld and the Pak

     While I don't offhand see any complications within the Protector
storyline, the comments by LLOYD@MIT-AI on that led me to think some
more about the role of the Pak in the construction of the Ringworld.

     One thing that did bother me in reading The Ringworld Engineers
was that here were these Pak, who apparently upon seeing the fate that
the galaxy was about to have visited upon it, built the Ringworld and
populated it with the beings of many planets, including Earth, Kzin,
and Mars.

     What disturbs me is the time frame:

     1. A group of Protectors and breeders set out along the galactic
arms looking for yellow dwarf stars in their hollowed out asteroid
slowboat, which moves about .06 lightspeed.
     These find Sol and its evolving ape men, and decide to set up
shop. They are shocked to find that the tree of life will not grow
properly.  They are stranded on Earth because they used almost their
last resources to land there.  And they have no guarantee that any
other planet in that region will grow tree-of-life.  Hence the
protectors die and the breeders intermingle with the nascent humans
already there.
     Thinking about it, these protectors almost certainly could not
have built the Ringworld, for if they had the technology to build
the Ringworld, then they certainly could have refitted their ship
to travel to another system to try again or figured out something
as simple as lack of thallium in the soil.
     In any case, they really would have to posses hyperdrive in
order to get out TO the worksite, much less move the mass of material
involved.  Again, if they had hyperdrive (it is possible that the
Outsiders swept through the galactic vicinity before), they could
have looked for new planets to establish themselves on.

     2. Two and one-half million years later, Phssthpok finds the
record of this ill-fated expedition, including a 2 million year old
distress call.
     Then many of the resources of the Pak homeworld are cranked up
to produce another interstellar ship (which leads to the plethora of
ships which follow Phssthpok), and off he goes, having adopted these
long lost breeders as his children.
     Now, in "Protector", we are told of the considerable resources
mobilized to build that one ramrocket. Although it is not impossible
that another expedition also went out along the galactic arms in
search of suitable planets, they would have left a record of at
least the collection of resources needed to do it.
     In a century or two, other ships leave the Pak homeworld, with
more childless protectors looking for a piece of this new world.
     It appears evident that the Pak had no idea of the existence of
humanity or even of the planet Earth, in that there is no record of
any other expeditions into the galactic arms other than the ill-fated
one to Sol.

     3. 700 years later, the Ringworld is discovered and it's origin
traced back to the Pak.
     Taking the age estimate in "The Ringworld Engineers" as a good
working range, that places the age anywhere from 2 million to 500,000
years.  Now, 500,000 strikes me as too young, for Phssthpok had not
even gone to the Library yet to discover the lost colonization effort.
Two million would be consistent with this colonization flight being
responsible, but they didn't have the technology to even save them-
selves, much less any other races of the region (and a large region
at that -- Kzin is some distance from Earth).

     To get to the final point:

     If the Pak knew enough about Earth (and Mars), to put maps of
them on the Ringworld (even going as far as putting the control center
in the map of Mars), and populate them with the creatures of the era,
why didn't they know and do something about the lost colony of Pak on
Earth and therefore there would have been no Pak version of the Lone
Ranger to ride across the interstellar void to rescue them?

     I know this seems a bit overboard, as Niven himself writes that
the whole thing just sort of came to be and the pieces just sort of
fell together, but it seems that a book that took as long to write
as The Ringworld Engineers would allow time enough to create some
mechanism to fill in this gap.

	Comments?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 AUG 1980 0357-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #49
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Monday, 18 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 49

   Today's Topics: SF Books - Landmark SF Query & A World Between,
                       SF and Violence, TESB - Glorifies War?,
                                Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1980 1559-PDT
From: Roger Duffey, Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Some reminders about Landmark SF query

The one day response to the Landmark SF bibliography query has been
very good.  However, some reminders are in order:

   1. Single short stories are \NOT/ eligible for nomination. A
      later query may focus on them if there is enough interest.
   2. Please be specific with your nominations. We cannot do much
      with suggestions like "Oh, throw in one of Lem's novels."
      or "Why not one of Anderson's series?".
   3. Please do \NOT/ send in why you disagree with some of the
      preliminary nominations now.  Mixing the new nominations
      with the disagreements makes it extremely difficult to
      organize the responses.  You will have the opportunity
      to send in your arguments pro and con during the next
      phase of the query.

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 08/12/80 04:34:41
Re: Sexism and computer networks - A WORLD BETWEEN

     At last, a good excuse to stick in a plug for a book nobody's
mentioned yet!  Norman Spinrad has come out with a recent novel called
"A WORLD BETWEEN" --- the crux of the story is a "Pink and Blue War"
between men and women.  Stated like this, it seems rather implausible.
In fact, the cover blurb isn't encouraging, and at the checkout desk
I wondered what sort of stuffing this turkey would have.
     Pleasant surprise... it's a good yarn, and Spinrad is a good
enough story-teller to carry things off, even if you don't quite go
along with everything he says.  One particularly interesting aspect
is the planet's world-wide computer communications net, which is an
integral part of practically everything.  In fact, the world's economy
is based on its role as an entertainment center for other star systems
(information transmission is supralight, matter travels sublight, so
interstellar trade is principally based on information flow).  He
postulates a society, democratic to the core, based on total freedom
of access to this global network. As it turns out, its strengths are
also its weaknesses...
     It's interesting; after you finish the story and forget about the
sex-conflict plot details (which are fun, incidentally) the world as
a whole lingers in the mind...  How would YOU set up a worldnet?  How
are access rights of citizens compatible with an information-based
economy?  What could be done better?  In short, how much of it would
work?
     By the way, all uses of computers/nets portrayed are accurate;
none of this nonsense about artificial consciousness, biological
analogies (tapeworms, viruses, etc), or logical conundrums blowing
pyrotechnic fuses.  For this alone I was impressed.

--Ken

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 at 2313-CDT
From: david at UTEXAS
Subject: Killing in a science fiction setting.

I am angry that science fiction is being exploited as a medium where
killing is "acceptable"; where it is "okay" to kill an "evil" alien.

Last night I saw part of an episode of "Galactica 1980".  It was
grotesque -- not just the miserable acting, sets, and story line,
but the reckless "killing".  There were "aliens" dropping right and
left. Funny thing though, they acted and looked and sounded like
humans. And even though it was only a colored beam of light instead
of the explosion of a gun, the result appeared to be death after a
brief moment of pain.

I thought some progress had been made in keeping that crud off
television. But here it is, disguised in science fiction and made to
look like comics, and it is even worse because it also disguises the
horrible reality of killing and death. Does anyone know about groups
opposing violence in television?  I want to join.

Are there creative people who produce entertaining, exciting,
and interesting stories based on themes of caring, concern, and
cooperation with other creatures: alien, human, foreign, plant,
animal, and whatever?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 2146-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: violence on TV

I am afraid that most of the organized groups that oppose violence
on TV (and/or films) are these religious mania types who essentially
propose censorship and also are against any aspects of human love
(sex) and similar "non-wholesome" subjects.  I doubt if you would
really be interested in joining up with them.

The national PTA organization is involved with TV violence issues,
though to what extent I don't know.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 12 AUG 1980 0058-EDT
From: JBARRE at MIT-AI (Julie A. Barrett)
Subject: Violence

     It seems that science fiction is not the only medium in which
it is ok to go about killing people (or aliens) just for the sake of
doing it. How many cop shows have you watched lately? There are plenty
of producers and writers who want to put out decent science fiction
(and TV shows in general) but the networks, studios, etc.  are the
ones who insist on putting out the crap we see day after ever loving
day on the tube. You might read Harlan Ellison's THE STARLOST because
he talks about that kind of activity by studios, networks, etc.  Also
his GLASS TEAT series might be interesting reading.

     But in a nutshell, the reason that this garbage permeates into
our living rooms is because the executives (praise A.C. Nielsen) think
that we want to see that kind of drivel.  There's not much you can do
except turn off the set.  If you want to join a group that is opposed
to violence on TV, go to your local PTA. They sponsor a national list
of "good" and "bad" programs. Of course, that is just "good" and "bad"
in the view of the PTA, but they have genuinely tried to do something
about the violence on TV.  Also try local church groups in your area.
These may be somewhat of a turnoff to some of you, but the fact is,
they seem to be the only ones who are trying to do anything about the
issue.

     I think that right now the reason that science fiction is getting
a lot of attention in the violence area, is because that is the
current trend (or a current trend) in TV.  BS Dyslexia and other Star
Wars/Close Encounters clones are on the air to make a buck, and let's
face it, gang, violence is what sells. It's a sad, but true commentary
on our way of life.

--julie barrett

P.S.  That's what makes certain games sell, also--violence.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 (Tuesday) 1433-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: Comments

I happen to consider myself pretty much of a pacifist.  I am not
"good" enough to get C.O. status {A pacifist with a brown belt in
Judo seems a bit strange to the Feds} but I would rather switch
then fight. However, I really enjoy the Dorsai novels by Dickson,
and various other stories which clearly glorify war.  I am not
altogether sure what this means though.  Any comments?  It seems
it is possible to enjoy such stories, just so long as it is "the
other guy" or something.

                   Dave

------------------------------

JTR@MIT-MC 08/16/80 22:20:01

Concerning the discussion on TESB and its content being a
glorification of war, one should be reasonable in examining the
film's plot line and where such a plot line must take the film. The
main subject of the film is a war.  As such it is very war centered.
You must keep in mind however, that neither the rebel forces or the
empire desires the war. Both would rather have peace, only they want
peace on their own terms (i.e. without the other around).  I am very
surprised at the very low casualty counts in both Star Wars and TESB.
The storm troopers can't hit the side of a wall with the blasters,
even when given the best of targets, there is very little blood when
someone does get hit ( notice that the storm troopers could very well
be droids for all the 'human' signs you will see from them, no blood,
no talking, etc. ). TESB went a little farther toward correcting the
above 'problem' than Star Wars, as you actualy see several people get
wounded in the film.  I really can't see where the film 'glorifies'
war any more than your average T.V. show or War monument. Through the
entire film, I heard no character say 'Gee, this is fun'.

JTR

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 1305-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject:  Known Space Stories

Would someone please send in a recommended reading sequence for
the entire group of Niven's "Known Space" stories?  I would think
that some sort of chronological order would be the best, but other
approaches are also welcomed and discussions encouraged.

I've noticed several similar requests lately, and I think that this is
one of the most excellent and rewarding functions of a confederation
such as SF-Lovers, whereby those familiar with certain authors/areas
can enlighten others just becoming familiar with them. What would the
practicality be of establishing some sort of multi-author database,
with each branch consisting of each author's universe (selecting those
authors who have created a consistent background for many stories)?
These branches could contain a list of all relevant publications, in
the best possible sequence for reading (admittedly a subjective judge-
ment in many cases) and, perhaps, some other background info, such as
cross-references to other authors who have shared the construct (such
as the group that grew up around Lovecraft), and maybe some general
description/introductory remarks.

This looks like an ideal project for the world's first computerized
fanzine/discussion group.

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/18/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss some apparent anomalies within Niven's Known Space series.
Spoilers for PROTECTOR and other stories/novels in the series are
involved. People who are not familiar with the series may not wish
to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 11 AUG 1980 1232-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: PROTECTOR anomalies

  It has been alleged that Niven quit writing Known Space stories
specifically because his universe had become too crowded -- he
kept inventing new species for a relatively small volume of space,
producing unresolved paradoxes such as the one mentioned.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 08/17/80 21:30:59 Re: Pak and Outsiders.

The Pak wouldn't have bothered with the outsiders as long as they
didn't pose a threat .  Pak are notoriously non-inquisitive.

                                        Brian Lloyd
                                        LLOYD @ AI

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1980 0012-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Ringworld Engineers

I think the protectors would never have built the ringworld in its
apparent form, even if they had the technological capability.  Ask
yourself why a protector would populate his Eden with Kzin?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1980 0819-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Who built the ringworld

Hmm. I had gotten the idea that the planetful of human protectors from
Home had done it. In a brief rescan of RwE the only evidence I see one
way or the other is an implication that the ringworld is much too old.
Am now more confused than before.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 AUG 1980 0438-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #50
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Tuesday, 19 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 50

      Today's Topics:       Global 2000, SF and Violence,
                       SF Books - Dorsai & Known Space Series,
                     Physics Tomorrow - Ringworld Dynamics, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 08/12/80 1315-EDT
From: JSOUTH at LL
Subject: Malthus, population, doom and gloom, etc.

It is not surprising that science fictioneers should take guidance
from Malthus, he provided a simple mathematical relationship between
population (exponential growth, or geometric as he put it), and food
production (constant growth). Such a formula is extremely useful since
it can be applied to any society or time.  Oh, for younger days before
I was awakened from my dogmatic slumbers. I too once believed that the
world was becoming overcrowded, and that poverty, starvation, disease,
and war were due in large part thereunto.  Historical study, current
observation, or theoretical considerations (if you're a pure Marxist
or pure capitalist at least) show things are not so simple. Starting
arbitrarily with a million, let us construct a list of areas con-
taining a million people ordered by density. Let us do likewise with
10 million, 100 million, 1 billion, and downwards too if you like.
Correlate this with starvation.  It won't.  Likewise historically.

The practical and theoretical joker is Malthus' food production model.
I suggest that he was observing the beginnings of exponential growth
in productivity, and not having a model for it (as he did for repro-
duction), he assumed linear growth.  Seventy years ago, conventional
wisdom would have insisted on unlimited exponential growth.  Today,
in spite of only minor, if any, setbacks, it is stylish to insist on
low and immediate absolute limits.

Let me suggest another model, seemingly unrelated: that innovation
transfer can be considered as a gas diffusion process. [*1] This would
indicate that in order to increase our production, we require a denser
if not a greater population.  I think this was true in the jump from
hunter-gatherer to agricultural.  It would be interesting to try to
figure out whether the population increased before or after the start
of the industrial revolution in G.B., but I suspect they didn't keep
good enough statistics.  (Exercise for the reader - try to apply this
model to the difficulties of central and southern Africa in their
attempt to industrialize, or even feed themselves).

[*1] I ought to credit somebody, but I can't remember the name.

I'm glad J.E.P. put in his ounce of gold on the recent doom and gloom
model before I got in my 2 cents (which would have been on the Club of
Rome LIMITS TO GROWTH model anyway).  I have a question though, how
does one model breakthroughs anyway?

I just had an ironic thought. I got to this point via RAH, and now I'm
on the other side of prof's position in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.
There, if you recall, prof forced Mike to predict famine in n years
(where n was a small integer), as opposed to Mike's original position
which included a technological breakthrough. The rest of the plot
stems from this prediction.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1980 1234-PDT
From: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI (Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand) )
Subject: TV network programming (good vs. bad vs. ratings)

To respond to comments by David@UTEXAS and Julie Barrett@MIT the issue
of what goes on TV is not a matter of what is good or bad since those
decisions are made for "business" reasons. Dow Chemical makes (made?)
napalm not because it was good, but because it sold.  The TV networks
are run by the same kind of people, responsible to the stockholders,
not to the artistic tastes of the viewing public. Of course there are
creative people out there that want to do good stuff, but it is not up
to the individuals. The network people know that their income is based
on ratings (via their fee schedule which is based on viewership),
hence it is irreponsible to let issues like "taste" to enter in.

Perhaps when better communication techniques allow lots and lots
of bandwith (1000's of times what is available now) it will become
feasible to program to smaller audiences.

	- Craig

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1980 1743-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: dorsai and known space

The Dorsai books don't glorify war so much as humanity. Dickson claims
to be describing the growth of a social consciousness.  One of the
major hallmarks of the Dorsai soldiers is that they win wars with the
minimum of bloodshed. And that they honor their contracts, debts, and
obligations. This extends to all phases of their lives.  They also
don't seem to hassle you for being whatever you are, unless you hassle
them. Read the story "The Lost Dorsai".

I believe that the book "Tales of Known Space" has a timeline in it.

(by the way i am never absolutely positive about titles of things
so.... but i think that the titles i have given here are right.)

	steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1980 1:38 pm PDT (Monday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Known Space Stories

I suggest "Neutron Star" (collection) first, to give you a good
background of the various races and history that comes up elsewhere,
and probably "Tales of Known Space" (collection) next, since it covers
a wider time range and also includes a chronology listing where the
novels fit in. Most of the rest can be done in just about any order,
though chronological (in the history) is probably best.  However,
"Ringworld" and "Ringworld Engineers" should almost certainly come
last, since they refer back to so much of the rest of the series.

	-- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1980 0957-PDT
From: William Gropp <WDG at SU-AI>

A short analysis of the (in)stability of a ringworld

Let the ringworld have radius r, mass m, and mass/length p.  Let
the parent sun have mass M.  Put the center of the ringworld at the
origin, with the axis of rotation along the z-axis.  Now, place the
sun at dr along the x-axis (a small perturbation in the plane of
the ringworld).  Call the distance from the sun to the part of the
ringworld at angle t, R(t).  By one of the triangle formulas, we
know that

     R(t) = sqrt(r**2+dr**2-2*r*dr*cos(t))

Using the well known formula for the gravitational potential energy
between two masses, we find that the potential energy in the
ringworld-sun system is:

              / 2 pi
              |               r dt
     U    =   | --------------------------------- * (-GMp)
              | (r**2+dr**2-2 r dr cos(t))**(1/2)
              / 0

This beast can be integrated exactly in terms of elliptic functions of
the first kind; if you are interested, look in "Tables of Integrals,
Series, and Products" by Gradshteyn and Ryzhik, page 154 (4th ed).
However, for dr small compared to r, we can expand the integrand in a
taylor series in dr about dr=0 and integrate term by term. The result
is

             4 pi r**2 + pi dr**2              -GMm       dr**2
     U    =  -------------------- * (-gMpr) =  ---- *(1 + ------)
                     2 r**3                      r        4 r**2

Note that as you move offcenter, the potential energy of the system
decreases; thus the system is unstable.

Note that the rotation of the ringworld does NOT affect the motion
of its center of mass.

A similiar analysis shows that for motion along the axis of the
ringworld, the potential energy is:

             -GMm r
     U    =   --- -
               r  R

Here R, the distance from the sun to the ringworld, is constant.  Note
that as the ringworld moves offcenter ALONG ITS AXIS, R is larger than
r, so the potential energy increases (becomes less negative), and the
system is stable (to perturbations along the axis of rotation)

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/19/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss whether Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back glorify war.
People who have not seen these movies may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1980 at 2153-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^ THE \REALLY/ BAD THING ABOUT THE "RAISING THE X-WING" SCENE ^^^^

It's not that the X-wing is a 'vehicle of war'. Ken Arnold has
demonstrated that reasonably. But David Gerrold in the Sept. STARLOG
argues convincingly that the handling of that incident in Luke's
training in the Force is a real flaw in the film.  Here is the gist
of his argument.

When Luke fails in his attempt to raise his X-wing from the swamp
by using the Force, he complains 'It's impossible!' and stalks off
to sulk.  He obviously hasn't finished growing up.  Yoda's initial
assessment of Luke's primary weakness, 'I cannot teach him. The boy
has no patience', was not far out.

You know how the scene ends:

   'I don't believe it!' .  .  .  '\That/ is why you fail.'

Then Yoda goes and raises the plane \for/ Luke, denying him a motive
for learning.  Getting the X-wing 'handed to him on a platter' is
certainly no way to teach Luke patience.  As Gerrold puts it:

  "In fact, when we next cut back to Luke and Yoda, Luke is ready
   to drop everything to fly straight into Darth Vader's trap. And
   it has yet to be established that Luke has learned how to use
   the Force for anything more than lifting rocks while standing
   on his head -- a skill of somewhat limited usefulness."

Calm, control, patience -- we largely HEAR about these rather than
seeing Luke developing them.  For Yoda to be \effective/ as a Jedi
m-a-s-t-e-r, in the sense of 'one who teaches', after he has raised
the X-wing out of the bog to show it can be done, he should let it
drop right back in, telling Luke, 'When you believe you can do it,
then do it you will.'

  "And the next time we cut back to Luke and Yoda, it would be enough
   to see the fighter out of the swamp again, cleaned off, and Luke
   grinning like a man who's just discovered he can run the 4-minute
   mile in 3 and a half."

It would have been just as audience-effective.  It would show Luke
actually progressing in learning about the Force and maturing from
the scatty adolescent we saw him on Tattooine.  And his subsequent
impatience and final catastrophic loss of emotional control would
become even more poignant.

\That/ is where Lucas failed.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1980 13:28:02 EDT
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: war and tesb

Well, I must admit that every so often I find myself swaggering down
the street, imagining a light-saber at my belt.

My own pet fantasy when SW first came out was that the "next one"
would show the rebel victory, and after effects, at which time we'd
see Leia elevated to the thrown as Emperess (it still disturbs me
that she hasn't dropped that "Princess" -- Gen. Whosits addresses her
as that in the early scenes, as Han Solo is usually being sarcastic),
Luke heads up the Imperial KGB, and we see scenes with Leia before
the Revolutionary Council denouncing Han as a counter-revolutionary,
shortly before he gets axed in a resort in Mexico...

In the alternative universe TESB, I thought it oddly ironic when OB1
appears on Hoth in front of Luke, and says: "Luke, you don't need a
weatherman to tell which way the wind blows."

Sure, Yoda's lines were a good example of Right Thinking, as far as
I am concerned, but somebody decided to cut most of them in favor of
lots of zap-pow-booom. [ They could have shown the months Han & Leia
had to take getting to Bespin with no hyperdrive, if they thought
it was going to look like Luke spent more time on Dagobah than H&L
spent bopping around, though I guess that would have complicated the
romance a bit--they'd be sick of one another by the time they got to
Bespin... ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 AUG 1980 0341-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #51
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Wednesday, 20 August 1980   Volume 2 : Issue 51

   Today's Topics: SF Books - Last Visions & Atlantis, Global 2000,
                     TESB, Physics Tomorrow - Ringworld Dynamics,
                                Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1980 1235-PDT
From: Lasater at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: request for information

Many years ago, when "Again, Dangerous Visions" came out, Ellison
promised us a final sequel to the Dangerous Visions series, "The Last
Dangerous Visions".  Nine years have now passed since the publication
of ADV.  The only thing I have heard about the sequel is vague rumors
to the effect that it was supposed to come out sometime in 1976.
Apparently it did not.  Does anyone have any information as to the
ultimate fate of the sequel?

Robert

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 1245-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: DANCER FROM ATLANTIS Recommended

A fellow worker here asked me to pass on to the group her enthusiastic
recommendation for Anderson's DANCER FROM ATLANTIS. It falls into the
recursive time-travel category discussed earlier, but she is just
enthusiastic about the book for its own sake, not just because it
is about such a subject.

I have not yet read it myself, but would read anything by Poul
Anderson just because of his authorship.

Will Martin

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 08/19/80 18:44:10 Re: Global 2000 food

About the nature of the food production curve -- I ran across an
interesting item in the paper a couple days ago. It mentions that
the threat of large-scale starvation in Asia is drawing closer in
spite of "miracle" strains of food crops. The reason is that those
plants need lots of fertilizer, and 2/3 of the energy consumed in
SE Asia is already devoted to the production of fertilizer.  Energy
is becoming more expensive & harder to get, therefore they have less
fertilizer, therefore less food. (It doesn't help that they continue
to make deserts by chopping up any burnable wood in sight).  The
article didn't cite a source, but it certainly adds some weight to
JEP's essays.

------------------------------

Date: 19 AUG 1980 1349-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: doom and gloom?

  Pournelle's virulently infectious optimism is severely misplaced.
Other people have already pointed out that his strategy involves
the probable abandonment of Earth and the bulk of its population
(whatthehell, they're just gooks anyway); I'll just add that even
RAH saw this approx. 30 years ago (in FARMER IN THE SKY a character
acknowledges that even with the huge ships in use they can't possibly
take off more than a fraction of the population increase -- or absorb
it in a colonial world; they're simply hoping to have some racial
survival after Earth is ruined).

   Addressing the question of a breakthrough:

  There are a number of intended-to-be-humorous laboratory "rules"
which many computer people are familiar with even though they are less
applicable in the terminal room (I got a full dose of them because I
used to be a chemist). Aside from the 1001 permutations of Murphy's
Law, there are such gems as "First draw your curves; them plot the
data." and "Don't just believe in miracles--rely on them." I contend
that this latter is what JEP, JSOUTH, etc. are in fact doing because
a technological breakthrough fits many of the usable definitions of a
miracle, of which the most important is unpredictability under known
physical laws. It's all very well to treat such laws as temporary and
superable obstacles in research, but to \expect/ to defeat them is
foolish.
  Looking at the specific example of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS,
there is proposed a particularly miraculous breakthrough: the
transmutation of lunar rock into food and water. (I suspect that
Heinlein may have been deliberately Biblical at this point, since
by other evidence he's quite familiar with that overrated book.)
The computer which assumed any such breakthrough in even the most
optimistic current modeling system would be thought squirrely, and
Mike himself admits that he is looking for a breakthrough on the
order of 50 years (i.e., 5-500 years, says Manny) away --- and he
expects cannibalism (not given this breakthrough) in less than 20[*1].

  Treating the rest of JSOUTH's message:

  Without more statistics than can conveniently be transmitted, I'm
not prepared to accept either of his simple models ("dogmatic" or
"enlightened").
  Malthus' food production model was in fact optimistic. Granted,
certain technologies (hardly breakthroughs either; most are over-
application of ancient practices) have increased productivity per
acre, but such gains have been near zero in recent years --- in fact,
we have to keep producing new insecticides (and sometimes herbicides)
to keep pest populations under control as they evolve to deal with
current methods. I find the figures recently given for rate of loss
of arable land quite credible, especially in view of this month's
SMITHSONIAN, which carries an article from someone surviving on a
farm that is useless according to current high-technology agricultural
standards; the best estimates show a loss of 3 to 5 \feet/ of topsoil,
the accumulation of over a hundred millennia, in the past 150 years.
Nor have I seen any challenges to the assertion of the 1959 edition
of the World Book encyclopedia, hardly a gloomy publication given the
date and audience, that since the arrival of white men in America the
countrywide average depth of topsoil has gone from 9" to 6".
  The gas diffusion model of innovation, like many simple models,
leaves out a few important factors --- such as the fact that labora-
tories require substantial amounts of space.  Technologists would
hardly be immune to the debilitating effects of population pressure
--- does anyone believe that a researcher in the world of MAKE ROOM,
MAKE ROOM would be as effective as one now, given the effects of
poor nutrition, bad air, simple lack of personal space, etc.? (The
geniuses in cubbyholes have commonly been those who worked best
alone.)  Statistics suggest that despite our slowly increasing
population this country is producing fewer and fewer people capable
of contributing to even the basic drudgework of research from which
a breakthrough is most likely to come.
  Recall that the first portion of the industrial revolution in
Britain had relatively little to do with farming --- I wouldn't be
surprised if any increase in the rate of population increase could be
attributed to the fact that Britain was producing more manufactured
goods which could be traded for food (my recollection is that Britain
has been a net importer of food for some time).  In any case we are
now dealing with a qualitatively different problem; it was trivial,
then, to say that if food could be harvested faster and stored better
there would be less spoilage, but the total loss today in the fields
and in storage (especially if we discount spoilage of grain stored
for several years because of policies which encourage the continued
production of unusable surpluses, further removing trace nutrients
from the land) is small.
  I would suggest that believers in ultimate salvation by technology
consider the modern tomato as a measure of that potential salvation.
Bred to a consistent size and ripening time and to a consistency
suitable for mechanical harvesting, it is picked green and gassed
to make it turn red (which \does/ \not/ ripen it); the result is
something not worth the energy to throw it out. The problem with any
technological "progress" is choosing the parameters; as SCIENTIFIC
AMERICAN pointed out 6 1/2 years ago the traditional choice in energy
has been to spend a lot of [energy] finding new sources and very
little conserving.

  I personally am not expecting doom (although I \am/ hedging a few
bets) --- unless the people who believe that there just isn't a
problem at all get their way.

                Eat, drink, and be merry,
                                                Chip

[*1] I recall at least 3 different numbers given (of which at least 2
     must be wrong) but all of them were under 20 years).

------------------------------

ZRM@MIT-MC 08/09/80 12:57:39 Re: TESB records

     The Coop record department (in part of its recent downhill
slide) doesn't have the digital TESB suit yet but I did get the
TESB soundtrack album: Music, great; Recording, fair; Surface,
printed on vinyl recycled from Neil Sedaka 45 rpm's with some
melted down Frisbee's thrown in -- RETCH!  I had to return 8, no
exaggeration, copies before I got one with less than 30 big pops
and grunged grooves per side. DOWN WITH RSO!
     Aside from the annoyance of returning 8 copies of a disk I
had to admit to myself that most people who buy this disk own record
players that do more damage to a disk than RSO built in to it in one
playing and so wouldn't notice the crappy vinyl. This is depressing.
It looks as though decent vinyl is goin the way of prime beef.

                                        --zig

------------------------------

Date:  8 Aug 1980 0724-PDT
From: CSD.TUCCI at SU-SCORE (Christopher Tucci)
Subject: TESB

Now I know how out of proportion this whole TESB craze really is!
Just yesterday I was listening to the radio and I heard a commercial:
starting with a catchy tune, it ended with "Oh-oh-oh-oh, what a
feeling to buy --- a toy Yoda!"  When I called to inquire, they
turned out so expensive, too...

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 08/19/80 05:32:10 Re: Stability of the ringworld

For those of you who shy away from equations, here is a summary of
the instability of the ringworld without the equations to prove it.

Suppose you build a ringworld and put it around the sun. Now, suppose
there is a little perturbation, or that you didn't place the sun
EXACTLY in the center; instead, the sun is closer to some point X on
the ringworld than to any other point on the ringworld. That is, the
sun is slighly off center, pushed a bit towards point X.

If you calculate the graviational force between the sun and the
ringworld, you find that there is a net force tending to pull the sun
and point X closer to each other.  That is, the sun moves closer to
point X.  Thus, it moves farther off-center: things get worse.  The
closer it gets to point X, the more it is attracted to point X, and
things will just get worse and worse until they crash into each other.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1980 0801-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: Ringworld Engineers

It seems pretty obvious to me that Niven really didn't want to write
RWE, but was pressured into it by agent/publisher/fans/whoever. This
seems clear on reading the introduction. It was just a money-making
venture, as opposed to the joy of creation which permeated the
original Ringworld. Consequently, it's not surprising that there are
inconsistencies to be found. Niven's basic skill keeps it from being
hackwork, but RWE can't stand up against Ringworld. Ringworld is a joy
to read; RWE is interesting, but definitely inferior. The inexplicable
anomalies outlined by others are the result of churning out something
to meet the demand, not lovingly crafting a precise construct, as a
writer may do when SELF-driven. Outside pressure can never equal a
writer's desire to perfect his creation. In short, I'm a little
surprised that RWE is as good as it is.

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/20/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages is the last message in this digest.  It
discusses an apparent anomaly within Niven's Known Space series.
Spoilers for PROTECTOR and other stories/novels are involved.
People who are not familiar with the series may not wish to read
any further.


------------------------------

DP@MIT-ML 08/18/80 17:19:36 Re: Pak

  The one obvious hole I see, is that people are assuming only one
planet full of pak.  It would be reasonable for a group to set up a
colony without the rest of the races knowledge (remember war secrets
are kept. Since this colony was of one clan, it would not continually
war, and might have time to develop hyperdrive, ringworlds, etc.

                                        ---jeff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 AUG 1980 0413-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #52
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Thursday, 21 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 52

Today's Topics: SF Books - Last Visions & Ringworld & Bailey Trilogy,
                                  Global 2000, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 1143-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Ellison's "The Last Dangerous Visions"

According to the latest SF Review, it's due out in December 1981.
Yes, 1981.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1980 1557-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: TLDV

When Ellison was here a few years ago, he claimed "It's five volumes
and is going to cost $60".  Later rumors were that his publisher
thought it too expensive; Ellison balked at any cutting; a second
publisher screwed up on some contract points and it was stalemated;
that Ellison had too many commitments and couldn't finish it on
schedule; that it was too big to do any sooner; etc. For a long time,
some sf shops I patronized in various cities had a "set of standard
answers to standard questions" taped to the cash register, or front
of the E shelf, or whatever, reporting the status of TLDV; most people
have just stopped asking, and expect that it will happen someday or
just be forgotten about. The last time I asked someone who I knew
to follow the gossip, I got a response which can be described as a
mournful look, a shrug, a pained expression, and an obscene word, in
about that order. No information, and I concluded that (a) it is too
complicated to explain and (b) I was the 237th person that month to
have asked for an explanation.
				joe

------------------------------

Date: 20 AUG 1980 1454-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Last Dangerous Visions

  Is going to be a very expensive boxed two-book set with some
monstrous amount of material in it (something like three complete
novels, including one by John Christopher, and >50 shorter pieces).
LOCUS and SF CHRONICLE said in January that it was due this December;
a later but less certain source says late 1981. (It seems that Harlan
is changing publishers again; he is shifting to Boston's own Houghton
Mifflin, along with Kate Wilhelm, and will be at Noreascon for a few
hours specifically as part of a tour.)  If the book could have been
assembled earlier, it probably would have been published by Doubleday,
but with Lawrence Ashmead's departure there was probably nobody there
who could work with Harlan.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 0302-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: The Reasons for Ringworld sequels

Now we're going to argue the reasons for sequels?  It's straight-
forward here. Niven obviously doesn't need the money (although it
can't hurt too badly).  It's those damned readers who keep begging
for more and pawing after him at every convention, in every fanzine,
in all his letters, etc. ad infinitum.  He's got to do *something*
to shut them up, else go insane, bug-nuts. And also, remember that
Ringworld, no matter how much we may like it, is an essentially
incomplete story, with no real beginning, a middle, and no real
ending. The 'resolution' is the strangest one I've ever seen, but
a really clever ending for a series. So, its sequel, if reasonably
done, can at least attempt to fill out the idea with more concrete
information, not to mention satisfying those maniacs out there.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1980 0157-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: (1) The Caves of Steel  (2) The Naked Sun  (3) ???

Does anyone know if Asimov ever plans to write the third book in the
Elijah Bailey saga?  "The Caves of Steel" and "The Naked Sun" are
obviously the first two books of a trilogy.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 20 AUG 1980 0843-EDT
From: KLH at MIT-AI (Ken Harrenstien)
Subject: Hitchcock 1999??

Are we talking about the same book?  Did you read it?  I'm confused.
If technology is no salvation, and topsoil is disappearing, where is
the logic connecting that with your non-expectation of doom?  You
just didn't mention any alternatives, and I have only vague ideas of
what you might be assuming; surely there is no point to a completely
negativist attitude?
  (I don't know what Heinlein has to do with it, unless it all means
that you plan on inviting your friends to a joyful discorporation
ceremony in the near future.)

------------------------------

Date: 20 AUG 1980 1135-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "Hitchcock 1999??"

  I confess to having seen only published fragments of the report that
started this uproar --- but I'm annoyed when people who may or may not
have read it dismiss it for spurious and invalid reasons.  Many of the
conclusions published are only quantitatively different from those
which the more foresighted people have been warning of for 20 or 30
years (cf the recent "discovery" that in the early 50's the United
Automobile Workers [union] warned management that more small cars
should be built).
  My message was a specific response to JSOUTH (having been involved
with clashes with Pournelle in other forums I doubt it's worth arguing
with him), which is how Heinlein specifically got into it.  As it
happens, I had been thinking about some of Heinlein's work in regard
to Pournelle's recent message; from my perspective Heinlein and
Pournelle are virtually indistinguishable politically (though I don't
claim they'd be comfortable with each other's beliefs) but Heinlein
was seriously considering the problems we now face (and Pournelle now
denies) when Pournelle was in school.
  I do tend to wander in essays which haven't been formally drafted
(you should read some of my apazines if you want to see some really
random paths) so I hope this clarifies the matter.
  As for the coming doom, note my specific words:

     I personally am not expecting doom (although I \am/ hedging a
     few bets) --- unless the people who believe that there just
     isn't a problem at all get their way.

Again, this could have been expressed more precisely, and it's
possible I'm attributing more to Pournelle than he would acknowledge.
My impression (based on reading several of his essays and skimming
several others, and on his recent reply) is that he believes that the
only social change needed for us to survive is to persuade government
to spend the money in the right places and get rid of "useless" regu-
lations --- technology will take care of the rest.  I see our only
chance as a major revision of social priorities --- but looking at
postwar Japan and Germany (which, with worker participation in
management, is arguably closer to "democracy" than we are now despite
its largely autocratic history) I see no reason, despite the fact that
they had outside help, why "salvation" should not begin with such an
effort of personal will. Remember "Let the word go forth . . . that
we will pay any price, bear any burden. . . "?  It's a lot easier
to be inspired than to actually take the individual steps, make the
potentially temporary sacrifices necessary to break ourselves out of
this rut --- but it \is/ \not/ impossible, and may be a lot easier
than finding a technological miracle.
  (I see I'm getting perilously close to the
poverty-chastity-obedience line of some of the really fanatical
"environmentalists" so I'll sign off -- hope this clarifies my
opinions somewhat.)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 at 1024-PDT
From: chesley at sri-unix
Subject: Dloom & goom

     Peter Vajk expanded the Club of Rome study to include space
colonies, and got a much more optimistic prediction.  Only a small
part of this was due to a part of the population moving to space. The
larger part was due to increased availability of energy (via solar
power satellites), which increases the rate at which underdeveloped
nations develop, which decreases the birth rate (for those of you
who didn't know, developed nations have a much lower birth rate than
undeveloped nations). A breakthru in fusion research would have much
the same effect, I'd expect.
     Of course, the future of space colonies and solar power
satellites is fuzzy at best.  It requires either substantial initial
funding by the Govt. or some other large organization or consortium,
or a breakthru in cheap launch systems.
     So there's two areas where a breakthru would help greatly.
Fusion research seems to be going as fast as it can, with no practical
results expected this century, but we can keep our fingers crossed.
Cheap launch systems may be given a boost (excuse the pun) by the
ever-almost-present unified field theory when it arrives.
     In the area of food production, genetic engineering holds great
promise, and is growing (oh no, two puns in one letter) like anything.
     The point being that when we talk about breakthrus, we don't have
to hypothesize something totally unexpected: there are at least a few
within sight.  (Anyone with more expertise in the areas mentioned
above, or others, who can make more detailed comments?)
	--Harry...

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/21/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1980 2044-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject: Hjjh's commentary

T'would seem to me that If Luke had developed to a stage where he
could lift his own X-wing, he might also have kept his hand.
-w-

------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1980 1451-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: David Gerrold's Analysis

    Not only does Yoda's lifting the fighter hurt Luke's schooling but
it enables Luke to run off and encounter DV earlier.  This should be
something that Yoda doesn't want (or does he?)...

	-Lee

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1980 23:44-EDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <AQE at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Lifting the X-wing in TESB.

Like most people, I also interpreted that scene as Luke failing to
lift the X-wing, and Yoda showing him that it is possible by doing it.
If that is what really happened, then the objections of Gerrold and
HJJH (see SFL V2 #50) may be valid.

However, my friend JoAnn, whose thought-paths are often orthogonal
to mine, came up with a significantly different interpretation, with
which I now agree.  In her view, Yoda INTENDED for Luke to fail, at
which point Yoda would yank the X-wing out of the muck and teach Luke
not only that it was possible, but that Luke was still a novice and
should have more patience. But something went wrong: Luke was actually
starting to lift the thing! (Remember Yoda's raised eyebrows?)  This
could not be allowed - Luke might get wild ideas like going off and
fighting Darth Vader single-handed (sick).  So Yoda MADE Luke fail by
pushing the X-wing back down!

I don't think the evidence is conclusive either way, but JoAnn's
interpretation seems to me to fit better.  I think there was a lot
more going on in this scene than just weightlifting. However, Gerrold
and HJJH may have the same or similar objections; I don't want to
comment on them because I haven't read Gerrold's piece yet.

Other opinions?
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1980 1300-PDT
From: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI (Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand) )
Subject: lifting X-wing out of swamp

Perhaps as HJJH@UTEXAS suggested it would have been better to let Luke
lift the X-wing out of the swamp again rather then "handing it to him
on a platter". The real problem as Luke and Yoda knew was that if you
get too much water in the Revelstrad Anti-Quampus pumps on the top of
the X-wing you are sure to suffer a poorly formed jorkex field at low
velocities.

Hence they were just anxious to keep the hardware in good shape.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 AUG 1980 0551-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #53
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Friday, 22 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:         Current Events, WORLDcon Rider Wanted,
                SF Books - Ringworld & Landmark SF Query, Global 2000,
                            TESB, SF Movies - CE3K Revised
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 0227-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Gdansk, Poland: MYOB!  [eom]

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1980 2326-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: Rider wanted

I will be driving round trip to the WorldCon from Rochester, NY.
I am looking for a rider to split usual.  Non-smoker preferred.

        -Lee

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1980 1551-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: RWE

I don't understand why I was disappointed in Ringworld Engineers; I
have some conjectures which I offer which may help others who felt
the same:

. It is mostly a travelogue, and much of the travel and description
  does not contribute to the plot

. In Ringworld, which I recently re-read to make certain (and the
  re-reading pleasantly confirmed my memories) I was completely
  blown away every few pages by yet another totally marvelous idea.
  The description of how the puppeteers migrated is something I
  found to be one of the most memorable incidents in sf. I didn't
  find anything comparable in scope or vision in RWE.

. There seemed to be almost an effort to bind together a lot of
  the previous Known Space stories.  While one expects that such
  autonomous stories would not be amenable to this, the attempt
  seemed unnecessary except to allow the author to say "Look,
  it's all there, and explained, so quit asking me why the
  inconsistencies".

. I did not find the characterization to be done as well as in much
  of Known Space; in particular, I thought Louis Wu to be too wearied
  of life and never really rallying back.

I had similar reactions to Clarke's next-to-last novel, and PJF's last
Riverworld book. I don't need the here-is-a-marvellous-new-environment-
and-it-looks-like-this-and-now-we-take-the-train-through-the-jungle
type of sf unless there is something fundamental to the plot (for
example, the "travels" in "Mote" present a subtle set of social
pheonomena among the descriptions).

Partly, I think it was a disappointment in expecations; we /expect/
Niven to do something completely devastating, and when he merely
writes good sf, it is a bit of a letdown.
                                joe

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1980 at 2323-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "LANDMARK" NOMINATION ADVICE REQUESTED ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd like to nominate the \first/ or the \first major/ SF book with
a female protagonist as a landmark. The problem is "which?"... and,
whether my assessment of the status of SF books of 30 years ago is
reliable.

The 'first' was Judith Merrill's SHADOW ON THE HEARTH from Doubleday
in 1950 (revised 1966).  WAS it ever widely enough known among SF-
readers to be considered a landmark?  Did it, for instance, have SF
Book Club distribution?  I do know that it's unusual in not ever
having had a paperback edition.  All the other "fempro" books
by notable authors in the 50's have had.  But, as Nicholls' SF
ENCYCLOPEDIA says, "her studies of individuals facing unprecedented
situations are unrivalled in the sf of the period; she was perhaps
a little before her time".

If SHADOW... is not a good candidate, the next question is which of
two from 1951 could best be characterized as \first major/? From our
vantagepoint in 1980, it would surely be DeCamp's ROGUE QUEEN rather
than Sam Merwin, Jr.'s, HOUSE OF MANY WORLDS. But from what I read,
it seems that back in the 50's, Merwin was much better known than
today. ROGUE QUEEN has had a better track record in editions and
reprints, in the long run, but HOUSE's record is not all that bad.

I would appreciate others' appraisal of this situation, either in
SF-L or directly to me.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1980 at 0220 EDT
From: Roger Duffey <DUFFEY at MIT-AI>
Subject: First as a criterion in the Landmark SF Query

I am afraid that HJJH's dilemma arises from a problem with the term
"landmark" which I chose as the title for this query. I am responding
at large, because some of the other responses appear to reflect the
same dilemma. I did not intend for anyone to use the title term as
an unstated criterion for the query. The query is seeking series and
novels that had a major impact on the field, that opened new areas
or refined old ones. The intention was to create a list of references
that would trace the evolution of the field over the last 50 years.
There are two problems with using "first" or "first major" as an
additional criterion for this query:

[1] The body of work that eventually comes to characterize an area or
    theme in SF may not include the work that was first historically.
    As an example consider robots in SF. Prior to 1930, Frankenstein
    and R.U.R. characterize the plight of the robot: robots are
    created and destroy their creator.  The major body of work that
    defines modern science fiction's view of the robot is Asimov's
    positronic robot series.  However, Asimov was not the first to
    write about robots that were "machines designed by engineers,
    not pseudo-men created by blasphemers. ... [that] reacted along
    rational lines that existed in their `brains' from the moment of
    construction". [*1] The "Adam Link" stories by Binder precede
    Asimov with this kind of robot and even foreshadow parts of the
    3 laws.  While Binder with a few others such as Lester Del Rey's
    Helen O'loy preceded Asimov, I doubt if anyone can argue that
    the "landmark" defining work is not Asimov's.

[2] The body of work that eventually comes to characterize an area or
    theme in SF may include several novels or series.  Using "first"
    as a major criterion would tend to discourage consideration of
    later important work in the area.  For example, consider the
    "post-holocaust" area. There are at least three important works
    that characterize it: Pangborn's DAVY, Miller's A CANTICLE FOR
    LEIBOWITZ, and Stewart's EARTH ABIDES. I would not like to see
    any of these eliminated on the basis that they were not the
    "first" in this area.  Similar remarks can probably be made for
    the "female protagonist" area. I would be very surprised to find
    that a single novel characterizes this development. [ HJJH? ]
    
In short, using "first" as a criterion will tend to distort the
query's viewpoint of the field and neither Stuart nor I intended
you to use it in that way.

[*1] From Asimov's introduction to THE REST OF THE ROBOTS.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1980 1436-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Facts on Economic Development

The September issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN is devoted to Economic
Development. I just got my issue, so have not read the articles.
However, the general topics (PEOPLE, FOOD, WATER, ENERGY) look
interesting, and there are many 'case study' articles (focusing on
China, India, Tanzania, Mexico). Seems like a good source of hard
information on present development efforts and pathways to the
future.

Jim

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 08/21/80 11:12:14 Re: Doom & Gloom and fusion research.

     Without having the documents to prove it at my immediate
disposal, it has long been my understanding that fusion research is
not progressing as rapidly as possible as CHESLEY@SRI has indicated.
     According to a spokesman for a government funding agency for
fusion (unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the agency) that
gave a seminar here at MIT about a year ago, the largest bottleneck
in fusion research is FUNDS! (not surprised, eh?) This gentlemen was
claiming that the amount of money being spent on fusion research in
this country could be increased by a factor of TEN before the next
bottleneck to progress would gum up the works. (after all, a bottle
without a neck might well BE progress in this case)
     Naturally, one must always listen to such claims with tongue in
cheek, especially when they are being made by someone who has more
than a passing interest in seeing the funds for fusion increase.
Nevertheless, he is supposed to be in a position to know, and I tend
to believe him qualitatively if not quantitatively. If for no other
reason, I have yet to see an area of research that did not necessarily
require a major theoretical breakthrough that could not get a speed
improvement by the application of large doses of fiscal salve.
     I couldn't agree with CHESLEY more when he indicates that one of
the best ways to avoid having the "doom and gloom" predictions come
true would be to perfect practical fusion power.  Therefore, I will
risk standing on a soap box long enough to say, "MORE CASH FOR
FUSION!!".  And now I will sign off before I fall off. . .
        Greg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1980 1022-PDT
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Pot-shots at Imperial Storm Troopers   

On a recent TV interview, a pentagon official gave the following
statistic: "There were 800,000 rounds of smallarms fire for each
person killed in WWII." Although I am not quite sure of how the
components of this statistic were computed, this might be a partial
vindication of the Imperial Storm Troopers.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1980 0807-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Steve Byrne at CMU-10A
Subject: TESB

Two things have I to say:

1) In the closing scene of TESB, we see a large mass of stars
   (apparently a galaxy) ROTATING IN REAL TIME.  I did some calcu-
   lations in high school that indicated how often a galaxy such as
   ours rotates, and it doesn't do so real time. It was fun to watch,
   though.

2) Not being a student of English, it occurred to me that Yoda might
   be speaking in 'passive' voice, which would account for his odd
   patterns of speech.  Anyone out there know for sure?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1980 1757-PDT
From: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI (Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand))
Subject: SW names: TNH and TESB

It should be pointed out that the initials that have been used in this
Digest for the 4th film in the Star Wars Saga is not really correct,
the full name of #4 is: Star Wars: The New Hope
              as #5 is: Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back

The subtitle and chapter of #4 was left off so as not to confuse
the masses. In rerelease the full title will be restored.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/22/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in the digest. It discusses
an observation made by Robert Lange in [SFL V2 #37] about the revised
version of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and the in-jokes of
the mothership. People who have not seen either version of the movie
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 11 August 1980 23:55-EDT
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: CE3K -- an 8 year olds observation

This 8 year old came out of the film and made the same observation as
one of our other readers here on SFL.  He thought that the alien who
came out just before the mother ship took off was actually Neary. He
thought that Neary had been transformed inside the ship, when the
glitter fell from the inside of the spacecraft.

In the CINEFANTASTIQUE (vol. 7 no. 3) page 90 there are four pictures
of in-jokes that were incorporated into the exterior of the mothership
(R2D2, Darth Vader's TIE fighter, a mailbox, and a WW 2 fighter from
1941).  Has anyone seen any of these?  And is R2D2 seen just as the
mothership turn upside-down on the ship's outer rim?

--Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 AUG 1980 0408-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #54
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Saturday, 23 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 54

 Today's Topics: What happens at a Con? - Party, SF Books - Mechasm,
                                  Global 2000, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 1980 0811-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Worldcon Party

There will be a SFL party at WORLDCON.  Time: 10:00pm friday, 29 Aug.
Place: a room has been arranged, but its number is not known at this
time.  A blurb in the daily sheet at the Con will give you this
information.

Bring: whatever you want. Beer, soda, munchies, are always needed.

There will also probably be a tour of MIT given that weekend for SFL
people.  Time yet to be determined.  It should be determined by the
party friday, and will probably be sometime saturday.

Questions?  Mail to me and I should reply tuesday afternoon (I will
be gone from a computer till then).

Jim

[For those who asked - WORLDcon runs from 29 Aug thru 1 Sept. -- RDD]
  

------------------------------

SBL@MIT-AI 08/18/80 08:43:25  Subject: MECHASM

A few years back, I picked up John Sladek's "Mechasm" as part of a
special series of "forgotten classics" by some publisher. (this series
also included L. Frank Baum's delightful "The Master Key"). "Mechasm"
has been reprinted in paperback, so I thought I'd review it here.

"Mechasm" is a story of a toy company, which has made the same style
of doll since the 1930's. Finding itself going bankrupt, it decides
to get money for doing government research. They come up with "The
Reproductive System", a machine which reproduces itself and self-
mutates. Inevitably, the system gets out of hand of its creators.
"Mechasm" is very funny, with some interesting characters and
situations.  Sladek writes something like Laumer, but the quality
is somewhat uneven.  You will have to suspend your disbelief for
this book, since some of the situations and coincidences are just
TOO unbelievable.

I liked this book, and believe that many will enjoy it as light
reading. It's only $1.95; a bargain at today's prices.

		-- Steve Lionel

------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 08/13/80 23:57:44 Re: Only One Earth???

Mama Terra sure is a nice place, BUT if for some reason the human
race manages to mismanage itself to the point where the only possible
futures are: a) to burst Earth's seams and die, or b) get OFF and give
the poor planet a breather, I would think the latter is the better
choice. And so would, of course, Jerry Pournelle...A Step Farther Out
(non-fiction) and The Endless Frontier (mostly fiction) make some good
points.
	-leor

------------------------------

ZRM@MIT-MC 08/12/80 22:57:14 Re: Using up planets

     Do I really need to get into thermodynamics? EVERYTHING wears
out.  The whole universe will eventually be a cold, homogeneous,
inert, "colloid" of all the matter and all the energy in it, whether
or not the universe oscillates or is overdamped. This planet will wear
out alot faster because it supports highly organized structures that
require energy to be maintained and therefore generate more entropy
around them. This ain't ecology, it's physics. Since we havn't found a
way to get around Einstein, much less Newton, we had best start
thinking about either cutting down on the complex assemblies on this
planet (of which humans are the most complex, and I don't think anyone
wants to stand by and just watch the starving starve) or get on with
reaching out for the resources of the rest of the solar system.
Perhaps the no nukes crowd will think twice when the countries that
rely on the green revolution start accusing them of genocide.

					--zig

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 1980 1132-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Gloom and Doom

Let me quote verbatim the abstract of a report.  This abstract
appeared in the 7/22/80 issue of NTIS's Behavior and Society
Newsletter, p. 364.  I have not read the full report.  Has anyone?

Title: "On 1012: A Check on Earth Carrying Capacity for Man"
Author: C. Marchetti
Affiliation: International Institute for Applied Systems
             Analysis, Laxenburg [sic]

"The report examines the issue of how much human population the earth
can tolerate. The result of this analysis is that from a technological
point of view a trillion people can live beautifully on the Earth, for
an unlimited time, without exhausting any primary resource and without
overloading the environment.  The global view of the problems and of
their solutions makes the difference, and shows that most of the
physical limits to growth stem from an inappropriate frame of
reference."

Comments?
		Mike

------------------------------

Date: 21 AUG 1980 1407-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: modeling against disaster

  My chief objection to models which suggest we will be much better
off with satellites beaming down power to the ground comes in several
pieces:
  1. I have been told that solar flux in the bands used by solar
cells is no more than twice as high in orbit as in, for instance, the
American Southwest.  Granted, there is some advantage to having the
power available for longer periods but even a synchronous satellite
would be shadowed for ~2.3 hours a day which would not be at the
minimum demand time.
  2. The question of the effects of the huge amounts of microwaves
has never been adequately dealt with. What kind of leakage would there
be from a beam carrying a useful amount of energy? (Would you believe
Heinlein also considered this ~30 years ago? See WALDO (in book form
as WALDO & MAGIC, INC.).) Presumably safeguards would cause the beam
to shut down at once if directional control were lost, and air traffic
could be rerouted (which would put a greater strain on an already
fouled-up air traffic control system) to avoid the receiver sites.
  3. The energy that will be beamed down is ~90% energy that otherwise
would not have been captured by the Earth at all.  No matter how the
energy is used, most of it will end up as waste heat.  I do not know
of anyone who has calculated what the effect would be of continually
supplying a significantly greater amount of energy to the earth's
\surface/ than it would otherwise receive but I have severe misgivings,
especially considering that there are meteorologists who say that we
are nearing the end of a period of optimally equable climate.  If
Phoenix becomes uninhabitable, we'll survive; if Los Angeles has to be
evacuated (a far from impossible prospect, given its water dependence)
we may have problems.

  These are inquiries from a relatively lay perspective; I suspect
anyone with direct experience and without a stake in the matter
could find others. I would also be interested in hearing what answers
to this come from knowledgeable people who again have no stake in
the matter.  I'm not unbiased myself; I confess to an enchantment with
the devices Jesco von Putkamer has proposed to build the satellites,
and I share the opinion of many SF writers and fans that it was
foolish to go straight for the moon rather than building intermediate
space stations, but there are questions which I just don't think
have been asked.

------------------------------

Date: 22 AUG 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Moderator <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: Energy systems

This discussion began with reviews of the Global 2000 report and
A Step Farther Out.  In part it has developed into a discussion
of energy systems and in particular SPS.  While I do not want to
artificially constrain the discussion, I do want to mention that
there is a special mailing list devoted to the discussion of energy
problems and proposed solutions: ENERGY@MC. A prolonged discussion
of energy systems is more appropriate for that list than for SFL.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/23/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 22 August 1980 15:07-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  SW Titles

I thought the title of SW4 was Star Wars: 'A' New Hope, but I could
easily be wrong...

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1980 1944-MDT
From: FISH via THOMAS at UTAH-20
Subject: Re: Jef Poskanzer : Lifting the X-wing in TESB.

Interesting, but I think the plot was intended as the surface reading
would show: Luke tried and partially succeeded, gave up, Yoda yanked
the X-wing so Luke could get on with the confrontation w/DV.

Now as to hidden motivations and conflict: Yoda deliberately foiling
Luke, Yoda as a lousy teacher (giving it to him instead of having
Luke keep trying, with the attendant gain in strength for said
confrontation), etc., I think they make very interesting alternate
movies which \could have/ been written, but weren't. (Does the book
shed any light as to motivation?)

I think real works of fiction (much less fact) have to be accepted as
having minor inconsistencies and lapses which come out later.  Movies
are made, not born.

-Russ

------------------------------

Date: 21 AUG 1980 1118-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)

  Frankly, I get the feeling that Yoda and Vader may \both/ be
playing Luke like a fish on a line.
  It's quite believable that Luke, for all his defense of the Force
against real skeptics like Han, doesn't have the slightest grasp of
the magnitude of the powers he's dealing with (the most spectacular
\physical/, as opposed to sensory/mental, thing he's seen anybody do
with the Force is his own calling of his lightsaber) and needs a
vigorous demonstration. It's also possible that Yoda knows Luke has
made sufficiently little progress that he can't keep his mind on his
[work] when he knows his friends are endangered (sounds callous when
it's phrased that way, doesn't it?) and sets him up for an "I told you
so" that may crack that thick skull and let a little light in. It's
also obvious from our first sight of him that there is a streak of
playfulness in Yoda at odds with the traditional vision of a Buddhist
master; he's 800 years old and completely isolated, and he may think
this whole hoo-raw is a joke.
  However, in terms of the \story/, I do suspect that Gerrold has
caught a point where pedagogy was sacrificed to the plotline.
   But do you really think someone who \could/ lift an X-wing would
be beaten by someone whose greatest achievements with the Force are
choking admirals from a distance and throwing around the furniture?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 1980 1037-PDT
From: Craig Milo Rogers  <ROGERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: TESB Closing Scene

Perhaps the rotating nebula in the closing scene of TESB is a
reference to The Black Hole.

				Craig Milo Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1980 at 0139-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB PARALLELS AND ALTERNITY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Non-computer-person JOHN M. reports:

To date, no one seems to have noticed the parallels between Han Solo
in SW-4 and Harry Morgan, Bogart's character in TO HAVE AND TO HAVE
NOT.  Both Han and Harry have a ship for hire | need money | engage
to ferry 2 people from 'here' to 'there' | (the people are connected
with a resistance movement) | have to be persuaded to undertake the
trip | shoot a 'black hat' from under a table | are 'cynics with
hearts of gold' | and eventually end up in the resistance themselves.

(This obviously explains that business, as Han was leaving the
 cantina, where Leia was leaning against the door jamb asking,
 "Anybody got a match?")

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 08/08/80 10:45:22 Re:  SW's in alternate universes

     The casting of Cheech and Chong to play the parts of Hans and
Chewbacca was a stroke of pure genius!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 AUG 1980 0505-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #55
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Sunday, 24 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 55

  Today's Topics:  Bibliography Queries and Responses, Known Space
                  Anomalies, Original SF?, SF Books - 4 Hour Fugue &
                  Female Protagonist & Asimov's Robots & Lens Series
----------------------------------------------------------------------

DERWAY@MIT-AI 08/18/80 22:40:31 Re: Dickson's Universe.

I have only read Dorsai!, but I understand that it is part of a
series of about 12 novels, called the "Childe" cycle, and dealing
with a history of the human race. What are the other stories, and
what is the order? Thanks...
                                        Don
------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 1813-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Language/linguistics in SF

I'd like to expand my original request for SF material in which
language or linguistics is a serious element, because there were
so few responses. (As yet I haven't looked up the SF encyclopedia
entries.) I don't want to overdefine what I'm interested in, but it
includes the Earthsea trilogy by Ursula Leguin.  The way she deals
with language constitutes a serious inquiry into language and the
relationship between language and reality. Examples: (1) with a spell
you can conjure up food and eat it, but it won't nourish you, since
it's only words.  (2) To use a true name to change something's true
nature changes the entire universe. (3) In the original (true) tongue,
humans cannot lie -- but dragons can.  Leguin doesn't just \ask/ these
questions; she goes into them, in a way integral with the theme and
action of the works.

Does that stir any ideas?  Same idea as before: reply directly to me,
and I'll republish when appropriate.  Thanks in advance, and thanks
again to those who've already suggested works.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 24 August 1980 02:20 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Responses on Invented Words / Cats

Cats in SF:
-----------

The King of the Cats by Saki

  Something no one mentioned is the short story, The King of the Cats,
  by (I think) Saki. Not as good as Tobermory, but bizzarre enough to
  be worthwhile. The references to myths of the King of the Cats were
  also rather intriging, I thought.  -- <SALawrence at MIT-Multics>

DOORWAYS IN THE SAND by Roger Zelazny

  One of Zelazny's tales featured an alien disguised as a cat. I
  believe it was 'DOORWAYS IN THE SAND'. -- Dave Mellinger <DKM at MC>


Acronymic Curses:
-----------------

    During my youth in the gutter, we always thought that fuck was
  an acronym. According to the story, it used to be placed on a sign
  in front of people in the stocks. This was done to describe their
  crime.  In this case "for un-lawful carnal knowledge". Thus these
  people were known as fuckers.
    I can't prove that the above is true but the etymology is known
  to people that come from various parts of the country.
                                             -- <Lee.Moore at CMU-10A>

------------------------------

MCTESQ@MIT-MC 08/21/80 03:32:43 Re: Known Space

     I just re read "World of Ptavvs" and a thought occured to me.
Could the Pak be the Tnuctip?
                                Michael Toy
                                mctesq@mc

------------------------------

ZRM@MIT-MC 08/12/80 23:36:03 Re: magazine

     As all of you know, this telezine has been a big success in
promoting dicussion on subjects from the obvious SF topics to
sociological and hard science topics. SF-L, and the other digest
mailing lists, have also been pioneers in electronic publications,
tools for experimentation.
     The logical outgrowth of this success is a fiction magazine.
Whereas SF-LOVERS is a forum for discussions **ABOUT** SF, this new
entity will be a vehicle for sharing original SF material.
     New authors who want to test the waters might find the SF-L
readership a good group to try things on. Anonymity will be main-
tained for those who wish it.  Please send any material you might
have on line to me, ZRM@MC, for consideration. I already have some
material on hand as the result of MARG's earlier query.
     Some details of the final form of this telezine will be
filled out as the volume and quality of material become apparent.
Distribution will be via FTP, in the same way that larger tracts of
material related to the SF-L digest are distributed, and a table of
contents will go out with the SF-L digest that contains an
announcement of distibution.
     I hope some dormant creativity has been awakened and I look
forward to reading your submissions.

                                        skoal
                                        --zig

------------------------------

Date: 18 August 1980 1330-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Bester

"The Four-Hour Fugue" was first published in Analog in 1974; it was
reprinted in at least:

   Bester, A.: Starlight (Doubleday, 1976; SFBC)
   Wolheim, D.A.: The 1975 Annual World's Best SF (DAW, 1975; SFBC)

------------------------------

Date: 21 AUG 1980 1138-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)

Re: female first [SFL V2 #53]

  I haven't read SHADOW ON THE HEARTH, but I would be much more
inclined to support it than either of the other two, which I have read
and don't consider to be good examples of the female lead; in both the
female is ridiculously typed and one-dimensional. The real question is
what book first gave a woman a non-traditional role \in/ \all/ \its/
\aspects/ --- i.e., not necessarily even THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS,
in which the heroine outmasses the hero but is described as thinking
"...that an electron is something the size and shape of a small pea."
  I have further comments on some of the specific choices in the
current list which I'll be sending directly to POLL.

Re: (1) The Caves of Steel (2) The Naked Sun (3) ??  [SFL V2 #52]

  At the end of THE REST OF THE ROBOTS, which contains 8 short robot
stories and both the mentioned novels, Asimov notes that the second
novel was finished at just about the time he began writing extensively
in the fields of science and other fact.  He says there was obviously
a third novel to be written, probably on Aurora (where there is the
proper ratio of robots to humans, as opposed to Earth (too few robots)
and Solaris (too many)). This postlogue was written around 1960, and
although I'd like to see the third book of the trilogy I suspect it
would be a wrench because of the >20-year gap and because he probably
has never had the necessary inspiration for it and would be writing
out of duty, which, as argued in the current discussion of RINGWORLD
ENGINEERS, does not make for a good piece of SF.
  There \has/ been at least one Bailey-and-Olivaw short story since
then; it appeared in ANALOG in the early 70's and involved a theft
of a research idea on board a spaceship --- and of course there's
"The Bicentennial Man"; but there is little if anything else I can
recall that he's done with the positronic robots since 1957. (vague
recollection of a story in which two robots conclude they have a
quasi-religious "duty" to man, similar to the idea of Williamson's
"With Folded Hands", and "Segregationist", in which humans consider
the robot form so desirable that they have themselves [converted])

------------------------------

Date: 22 AUG 1980 0220-EDT
From: Roger D. Duffey, II <DUFFEY at MIT-AI>
Subject: The Positronic Robots of Isaac Asimov

Asimov notes in IN JOY STILL FELT, that the 3rd Bailey-and-Olivaw
novel was to be entitled THE BOUNDS OF INFINITY to balance the
title of his earlier novel THE END OF ETERNITY. He began the novel
soon after he terminated his teaching duties at Boston University.
Although started with enthusiasm, the writing of the novel moved
very slowly and only with great effort.  At the same time his
science writing was going quickly and well with several books and
the beginning of his monthly science column for F&SF.  He dropped
the novel in October 1958 so he could devote more time to science
writing, which he enjoyed and felt to be important.

Asimov has added 6 stories to the robot series since 1957/58:

[1] "Segregationist" is a brief viginette of a world where humans
    desire metal replacements for their organs which make them more
    like robots and robots desire fibroid replacements for their
    components which make them more like humans. First published
    in ABBOTTEMPO, Book 4 (1967), the story is also available in
    Asimov's collection NIGHTFALL AND OTHER STORIES.

[2] "Feminine Intuition" is about a feminine robot developed for
    intuition and specifically to develop guesses about which suns
    have habitable planets. The 80 year old, retired Susan Calvin
    plays a brief but essential role in this story. It was first
    published in F&SF (October 1969).

[3] "Mirror Image" is the only other Bailey-and-Olivaw story that
    has been written to date.  It is a short story centering on
    a disagreement between 2 scientists who both claim to have
    developed an important mathematical technique and then told
    the other about it.  The problem is complicated when each
    scientist's robot confirms his master's story. This story was
    originally published in ANALOG (May 1972) and has since been
    reprinted in THE BEST OF ISAAC ASIMOV (Sphere Press, 1973).

[4] "That Thou Art Mindful of Him" centers around the question of
    how can robot judge whether or not to obey an order, especially
    on Earth where people who are not familiar with robots may give
    them irresponsible orders. In essence what is a human being that
    robots should be mindful of them?  This story was originally
    published in FINAL STAGE (1974), an anthology of the "ultimate"
    stories on several common SF themes.

[5] "The Tercentennary Incident" returns to the theme of a robot in
    the guise of a political leader, which Asimov first explored in
    the 1946 "Evidence" (see I, ROBOT). Here a secret service agent
    thinks the President of the US may have been assassinated and
    replaced by a robot. This story first appeared in Ellery Queen's
    Mystery Magazine (August 1976).

[6] "The Bicentennial Man" again returns to the theme of what
    distinguishes a robot from a human being, and provides what
    appears to be Asimov's final answer. A very important story
    and in my personal opinion one of the best science fiction
    short stories ever written.  This story was published in
    STELLAR SCIENCE FICTION #2 (edited by Judy Lynn DelRey).

Stories 2, 4, 5, and 6 are also available in the Asimov collection
THE BICENTENNIAL MAN AND OTHER STORIES.  Anyone interested in a
complete bibliography of the 29 positronic robot/MULTIVAC stories
should see James Gunn's critical review "On Variations of a Robot"
in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine (July 1980).  My single
complaint about the article is that he has failed to distinguish
between the MULTIVAC and positronic robot series.  Also you should
be aware that the article gives spoilers for virtually all of the
stories.

                                                Cheers,
                                                   Roger

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/24/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
the appropriate reading order for E.E. (Doc) Smith's Lens series, and
contains spoilers for THE VORTEX BLASTERS.  People who have not read
that novel may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 08/12/80 0849-EDT
From: JSOUTH at LL
Subject: Lensman series ordering [SFL V2 #39]

Ref: ordering of Lensman series (also something of a spoiler). For
some reason, when I read the Vortex Blasters (long, long ago), I
got the impression that it took place after the Children of the
Lens.  I don't recall any dialog to that effect, but Storm Cloud's
abilities seem to fall into the 2 and 1/2 stage area and he doesn't
go to Arisia, and he doesn't fight Boskone.  Furthermore the whole
atmosphere, execpt for the vorticies, seems peaceful; and that
problem is just mutual error by beings of essentially good will.
I thought that this was the natural development of mankind, as
opposed to the forced development practiced by the Arisians.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 AUG 1980 0752-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #56
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Monday, 25 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 56

     Today's Topics: Global 2000, SF Books - Female Protagonist
                     & Landmark SF Query, Acronymic Curses, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 August 1980 1117-EDT (Thursday)
From: Mike Inners at CMU-10A (C621MI10)
Subject: Resource Exhaustion

Have any of the studies cited considered the problem of 'resource
capital' in developing new technologies?  Any 'save the world'
technology will require massive deployment to have substantial
effect. The amount of resources needed, for example, to replace all
of the oil, coal, and uranium burning power generators with fusion
generators (if there was a breakthrough tomorrow) would be staggering.
Not to mention building new support facilites, such as deuterium
separation plants, etc. Plus undoubtedly political problems - after
all, who wants an H-Bomb in THEIR city? [ not that I think fusion
plants are dangerous, but many current 'no-nukes' fanatics might,
also oil companies and coal mining states would be a bit upset ]
With many third-world countries struggling as fast as they can to
become 'developed', they will undoubtedly want to be the same kind
of resource hogs that the US has been for many years.  They might
even stop exporting their resources to the US and decide to keep
them at home.

The result could be that when the 'breakthrough' occurs, the initial
resources needed to implement the technology may be unavailable, used
up or politicaly inaccessable.  You need to keep some reserves around
to build for the future.  We don't seem to be doing this, and
developing nations don't seem to be interested either. The 'reserves'
kept by agencies such as the US Gov't won't amount to much - they are
only a few months of current usage and would not last long under a
heavy load.  And protests are growing about 'locking up' resources --
people want them NOW.  Mining & energy companies are squeezing every
last drop out of already developed sites, and new discoveries are
almost always what was once considered 'low grade' ore.

The conclusion is that unless we are willing to save and build up some
reserves, when the breakthroughs occur later this century we may not
have the initial investment.  As the old saying goes, 'it takes money
to make money'.  Without some change in attitude and policy, we won't
have it.  Note that this doesn't make doom inevitable, just very
possible.

I'm sure there are some holes in the above reasoning, so criticism is
welcome and will be taken in the spirit delivered.

------------------------------

Date: 24 AUG 1980 1530-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: getting off or bursting
 
But this is just the sort of question SF is supposed to ask! Is
it moral/ethical/whatever to \leave/ \behind/ most of the human
race --- I don't know any of the current dreamers who are willing
to claim that more than a small fraction of people could actually
be gotten off unless something like Clarke's space elevator is
developed --- and once they were off Earth how many of them would
survive? Panshin, in RITE OF PASSAGE, addresses this peripherally;
one of ~20 massive transports (not necessarily generation ships,
since they have FTL capability) now has about 27,000 inhabitants
(from voting totals given) and was much more crowded when it left
earth --- say 200,000 at the outside. That's 4,000,000 out of a
population between 5 and 10 billion --- and even getting that
many people up to the ships (I assume they wouldn't try to land a
hollowed-out asteroid) would require huge amounts of energy. As a
last-minute attempt to save \something/, that's reasonable, but I
call planning for it to happen evil. (This is of course ignoring
the possibility that Earth could be stabilized, without the more
dangerous sources of energy, at somewhere near the current
population.)

------------------------------

Date: 24 AUG 1980 1627-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: disappearance

  The cluster of messages I got off earlier today are likely to be
the last thing you see from me for the next week and a half (which
comprises the month of Claudius in a useful parallel time band) due
to Noreascon. Y'all come, and wave if you see a blur go by; it's
likely to be me.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 at 0746-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SF "LANDMARKS" AND "FEMPRO'S" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In reply to Chip's comment yesterday and Roger's previous one to the
effect that he would expect the history of female protagonists in SF
to be similar to that of robot or holocaust stories--

Au contraire, the histories are quite different, probably because
robotics and holocaustics are \themes/, while female protagonists are
part of story-engineering rather than primarily intellectual concepts
as the others are.

Even borderline SF books with a fempro earlier than that cluster in
1950-51 are so rare (perhaps 3 in a 70-year span) that that sudden
appearance of SHADOW ON THE HEARTH, ROGUE QUEEN, and HOUSE OF MANY
WORLDS all at once strikes me as a breakthrough in the history of
the genre.

If the focus of the Landmark project is only on theme, then this is,
of course, immaterial. I don't think it should be, but that's not my
decision to make.

I certainly agree with Chip's qualitative appraisal of Iroedh and
Elizabeth Marriner -- the latter is not only cardboard, but a gross
caricature of the "lady poet".  But, Merril's housewife protagonist
can hardly exemplify a woman in "a non-traditional role in all its
aspects".

Moreover, "the real question of what book first gave a woman" such
a role, regardless of whether or not she is the protagonist, is a
whole 'nother bucket of worms.  I originally took up the study of
fempro's because I got tired of Libbers (even or perhaps especially
academic ones) carping about the female characters in SF and basing
their arguments on a few repeated examples without ever doing any
honest-to-Gawd research.  Since mine would be a first such study
-- and was NOT a bloody dissertation -- some restriction on the
"population" I would analyze was a practical necessity.  Rather
than ALL female characters, I chose just those who were THE main
character in a book. I assure you that the annelids in my present
pail are quite squirmy enough!!!

For a SF book to have a female protagonist at all was a giant step.
Getting a fully non-traditional one was: a) done in slow increments,
and, b) not as gigantic a step, in my opinion, even if it had
happened all at once.

Historically, there was a breakthrough, and it happened around
1950-51.  After that there was a decade-long hiatus with 3 near-
borderline candidates, until, starting in 1960, there has been at
least 1 per year.

There weren't any really half-way respectable female leads until
1964, with Gotleib's SUNBURST (probably ineligible by Chip's
standards because the heroine is a child), and Andre Norton's ORDEAL
IN OTHERWHERE... (which as something of a Norton specialist I would
be more than pleased to consider as the best-earliest fempro).  But,
move up just a couple years and there is not-quite-as-early-but-even-
better Rydra Wong in BABEL-17.

With the data in front of me, I see no reasonable candidate outside
that 1950-51 cluster of 3.

[ The landmark SF query is \NOT/ limited to theme development in SF.
  We are seeking the longer SF work that marked the development of
  the field.  The criteria were stated at an abstract level to
  encompass the many different ways that a work could be important.
  The development of the FEMPRO is one of many possible dimensions.

  I did not mean to imply that the FEMPRO development would parallel
  the development of the examples. The point was that the importance
  of any work which approaches a new theme or employs a new technique
  depends on how SF developed along that dimension. In the case of a
  breakthru the first is a landmark. In other cases, later work may
  mark the field's development better.                   -- RDD     ]

------------------------------

John Batali@MIT-AI 08/24/80 13:54:31 Re: Dirty word

From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1980): Etymology of FUCK

[perh. of Scand. origin; akin to Norw. dial.: <fukka> to copulate,
 Sw dial.: <focka> to copulate, strike, push, <fock> penis; perh.
 akin to L <pugnus> fist, <pungere> to prick, sting, Gk <pygme>
 fist]

Linguistic thought of the week: Given enough thought, an appropriate
acronym can be found for almost anything.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 18:30 PDT
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Acronymic curses

Actually, "fuck" has very old Anglo-Saxon roots.  It is thought to
come from the word "fucken," meaning "to strike" (That would make
an interesting warning for matchbook covers . . .).

	Richard

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/25/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1980 0051-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <JMA at SU-AI>
Subject: TESB rotating galaxy.   

Has anyone given any thought to the idea that it may be the SHIP which
is rotating, not the galaxy?  

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 1856-EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Yoda's Speech Pattern

  Passive voice makes the object of an action the subject and the doer
  of the action (if mentioned at all) an object, as opposed to active
  voice in which the doer is the subject and the object is the object.
               Active: Yoda raised the X-wing fighter.
               Passive: The X-wing was raised by him.
                                        -- Spencer <THOMAS at UTAH-20>

  In technical terms, most of Yoda's lines have the subject and the
  predicate noun or adjective reversed (a predicate noun or adjective
  is tied to the subject of the sentence by a descriptive verb such
  as "to be" rather than an action verb); "He is reckless" becomes
  "Reckless is he".  (There is no passive voice in predicates).  I
  seem to remember that some of the action verbs are in the order
  they take in German, i.e. subject-object-verb.
                                  -- Chip Hitchcock <HITCHCOCK at CCA>

  Yoda doesn't speak in the passive voice.  He merely has a strange 
  syntax and grammar.  We find Yoda saying things like "Impatient is
  he" as opposed to "He is impatient", and "told you I did" instead
  of "I told you so didn't I?".  Passive voice would be more like
  "Impatience is his" or "it was told to you".  In passive voice we
  find the subject being acted upon rather than doing the acting.
  (This is pretty good for someone that nearly flunked HS english).
                                   --  steve z. <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

  Yoda, as far as I can recall, always talked in the active voice,
  but switched the normal word order ( "Help you I can, um hm" ) or
  used slightly unusual words ("Away with your weapon, I mean you no
  harm").  As I think back on it, he usually put the verb towards
  the end the clause, and sometimes switched the subject and verb
  ("Luminous beings are we").  You often get this kind of speech
  pattern with someone not speaking their native language.
                                      --  Mike <Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM>

    What Yoda is probably doing is trying to force the speech pattern
  of another language onto English. Is there anybody out there who
  can comment on the possibility that his speech pattern is modelled
  on an Oriental tongue? I know a little Japanese, and most of the
  grammar is reversed -- the verb is \always/ at the end of the
  sentence, 'prepositions' (particles) follow their 'object', etc.
  (I put part-of-speech names in quotes because there is not a 1-to-1
  correspondence with English grammar concepts.) If not that, perhaps
  he is trying to remove 'I' from the position of prominence at the
  beginning of the sentence in an effort to reduce the 'importance
  of self'.  Of course, this is also an Oriental concept.
    (Of course, we can't discount the notion that Lucas was merely
  trying to make him 'cuter' and more memorable.)
                                        -- Spencer <THOMAS at UTAH-20>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 AUG 1980 0424-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #57
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Tuesday, 26 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:  PSI - TK Results?, Vehicle Guidance - Speculation,
               SF Books - Cybernetic SF & Short-Shorts & Donavon Who?,
                 SF Bloopers - ST & TESB, TESB - X-Wing & Alternity
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1980 at 1927-CDT
From: wilcox at UTEXAS 
Subject: Laser ESP

Apparently reported in Science News, Vol 116; Dr. Robert Jahn
(Dean of Engr. and Applied Sciences, Princeton)...developed a LASER
Inferometer which serves as a positive feedback training device for
Telekinetics experiments...with widespread and repeatable results.

Anyone got any info. on this?  Breakthrough, or some pop. science
writer's need for a dramatic story?  Reply to me.  tnx

------------------------------

VAD@MIT-MC 08/23/80 17:11:20 Re: Thoughts on surface travel

Recently, on a highway near me, they put in all these low-profile
surface reflectors on the lane boundaries. These are angled glass
things mounted in a H-shaped bracket and pounded into the road. They
look really wild at night under high beams, orange ones on the left
and white in the middle.  Anyway, when rolling late at night between
home and Rutgers, I sometimes get to thinking about autoguidance
systems for cars [if of course by the time they implement something
like this transit hasn't taken to the air anyway!]
     Something like this would involve rows of little microwave
reflectors, like those described, and antennas and detectors on the
vehicle. Of course it would have front and rear speed/range detectors
to take canonical actions based on the movements of other vehicles
nearby.  The whole thing naturally is processor-controlled and is
inspected to make sure it is running.  I can see it now: At the
inspection station, an interface plug to attach to a test port on
the cars, and a CRT that types "Win!" or "Parity errors!" or "Broken"
depending on the results of the diagnostics.  Any ideas on all this?
     Additional safety features would include the following: In case
of software wedging, there is a large red RESET button mounted on the
front bumper so that if the system should die, it reboots upon impact
with foreign objects.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 1980 at 1008-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: Response to my bibliographic query

     A couple of weeks ago I inquired as to what books people
had found which a) were well written, with good characters, and
b) involved computers which were correctly depicted.  I mentioned
John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" and Joan Vinge's "Fireship" as
examples.

     I think it's interesting that there was NOT ONE response,
either to me, or to SFL.  That says something about the sorry
state of our professional field in our hobby field, doesn't it?

------------------------------

Date: 23 AUG 1980 0104 EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  Response to Obrien's Bibliographic query

I think the main reason that there were no responses to the "realistic
computers in SF" query is that it is very close to the "computers in
SF" query that ran in early June.  However, you are quite right that
cybernetic SF is in a very "sorry state".  Warrick's "The Cybernetic
Imagination in Science Fiction" is a comprehensive study of computers
and artificial intelligence as portrayed by science fiction.  In her
introduction she states:

  "A comparison of the fictional worlds of computers and robots with
   developments in the real world reveals a sharp discrepancy.  Much
   of the SF is dystopian, but no such negative attitude prevails
   in the field of computer science.  How is this discrepancy to be
   explained?

       . . .

  "This study demonstrates that much of the fiction written since
   World War II is reactionary in its attitude toward computers
   and artificial intelligence.  It is often ill informed about
   information theory and computer technology and lags behind
   present developments instead of anticipating the future. Only a
   small number of the later works demonstrate the sound grounding
   in science that is characteristic of writers during the golden
   age of SF in the 1930s and 1940s."


Her study is well worth reading. In it she develops a view of the
SF cybernetics literature that appears to extend to the rest of
SF as well. Her final conclusion is one I find extremely intriguing,
and I offer it for discussion here: that technology is becoming too
complex for the literary imagination to deal with easily.

					Enjoy,
					   Roger

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1980 0350-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dr A's 100 great SF short short stories

A great collection of short-shorts, averaging 3 pages, mostly
marvelous, some splendid, a few fantastic, a handful hideous, etc.
I recommend. It starts with A Loint of Paw, by Asimov, and contains
stories by, eg, Ambrose Bierce and Martin Gardner as well as most
recognized science fiction and fantasy writers.  I can only think
of two short shorts that ought to be in it, and aren't. What other
anthology covers an entire story form so well?  A must for lovers
of wit.		--JoSH

------------------------------

Date:  20 August 1980 06:34 edt
From:  SALawrence at MIT-Multics (STEVE at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  ?? Donavon ??

In reading Zelazny's story of the first manned ship on Venus (I
can't recall the title -- the one wherein he refers to Venus as a
"searing black calm" and as "boiling maple syrup"), the note at
the end of the story is signed "Donavon's Brain".  This is the
first mention of the name of the ship's brain's name, and looked
as though it was supposed to have some significance to the reader.

Some time before that I ran across a rather strange vignette of an
old spaceman dying of cancer of the spine. I don't recall the author
or the title; he's lying in bed throughout the story.  At one point
he gets a little drunk and halucinates; at another point in the
story he's had them put his space boots (an old story) on his
feet, but they don't fit him any longer (they're too big). Fairly
straightforward stuff. The odd part of it was that the character's
name was Donavon, and it appeared that the author attached some
significance to this detail.

And, of course, there's that old gem of disgustingness, Donavon's
Brain, by someone who should not have been an author (private
opinion).

Would anyone care to guess if (a) I'm seeing connections where there
aren't any, or (b) if these references are all just references to
the story Donavon's Brain (which is old and original enough to be
a classic), or (c) there's some starting point I'm not aware of
to which all three refer?  I'd also be mildly interested in other
stories wherein the main character is named Donavon (if this appears
to be significant).  Stories by Lafferty (such as The Devil is Dead)
probably don't count, as his inspiration most likely comes from Joyce
rather than old SF.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1980 09:56 PDT
From: Hammer.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Star Trek Blooper?

During an episode of Star Trek called "The Menagerie" (part 1), an
injured Captain Pike communicates by blinking a light once for 'yes'
and twice for 'no'. When Spock tells him privately that he intends
on hijacking the Enterprise to Talos 4, Pike signals disapproval by
continuously repeating the 'no' signal.  Later Scottie notes that
something is wrong but it would take "weeks or months" of coaxing
to determine what Pike is trying to say.

What ever happened to Morse Code? If forgotten, it seems they could
have invented a code to interpret Pike's distress in a short period
of time. Comments?

Bruce

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/26/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  9 August 1980 21:48 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Asteroid fauna

Well, since someone brought up this silly scene, let me say that it
was my opinion that Han won the "Twit of the Movie" award at that
point. After he very cleverly deduces that they have landed and are
standing inside a enormous living creature, he decides to test out
his theory by firing a blaster into the creature's stomach lining.
If you were in a dark jungle, and had figured out that you were
probably standing on a sleeping tiger, would you kick it, just to
be sure?

------------------------------

Date: 25 August 1980 1613-EDT (Monday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject: TESB

I don't think that it was the ship that was turning since the MF
didn't turn as well, that is to say the Galaxy kept turning but the
MF was not being rotated as well.  I haven't seen TESB for a while,
but, I seem to remember that he said things like: Reckless he is,
yes. As opposed to Reckless is he. or He is Reckless...
				Doug

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 1856-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve
Subject: And last but not least TESB.  

I think that Yoda raises the fighter craft because he feels Luke
has reached a plateau in his learning. Yoda wishes to demonstrate
that what he says is true ie the fighter CAN be lifted by the force
and he also wishes to ease the pressure on Luke.  Perhaps he thinks
that getting beaten will be good by DV will be good for Luke.  Who
knows what thoughts run around in Yoda's brain, I certainly don't
and I bet the shadow doesn't either.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1980 14:46 PDT
From: STOGRYN.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Raising the Titanic....X-wing

There are less orthogonal explanations why Luke could not raise
the X-wing fighter from the muck and mire teeming with life:

Expanding on W. Wake's truism . . .

Despite Luke's age and field promotion to the officer's ranks, he
is still a "kid". He even admits that he has not finished his Jedi
training (stating that he will return to finish it) and has proved
this by failing on several occasions (in the tree, losing his
concentration while balancing Yoda, and at lifting the X-wing).
Yoda isn't trying to prevent his successes.  The raising of the
X-wing is another test for Luke, an example of Luke's inability,
and a demonstration showing that the power of the Force does not
depend on one's size.  If Luke has to run off to save his friends,
Yoda wouldn't stop him by leaving the X-wing in the mud; he wants
a willing student. Yoda doesn't want to demand that Luke learn the
Force.

Thus, Luke's proficiency is still limited to doing the small things
. . . jumping fifteen feet high, snatching a light saber from
one foot away, aiming at an exhaust port without computer guidance,
etc. He only sees his friends in danger when he questions Yoda about
being able to "see the future", but Yoda has to guide him through the
process.  He does not have the full use of the Force; he is not yet a
Jedi, consequently, he essentially loses the physical battle against
Vader.

Yoda only took on Luke's training at Ben's insistence. Yoda knew
better.  He could see that Luke was impatient - but so was Ben at
his age.  Yoda gives it a try, but later comes up against Vader's
long-distance influences.  This combined with Luke's immaturity
causes him to fly away to fight his archenemy.  There upon, Ben
regrets Luke's failure, proclaiming, "He is our only hope".  Yoda
corrects him, however, "No, there is another".

A more important question is: Who could that other be?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 23 August 1980 0802-EDT (Saturday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject: SW's in alternate universes

What surprised me most was when Leia, torn between Luke and Han, ran
off with Chewbacca, giving birth to \the last hope/.  I still think
the little critter is really Yoda in a furry suit.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 AUG 1980 0416-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #58
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Wednesday, 27 August 1980   Volume 2 : Issue 58

   Today's Topics: George Stewart, Vehicle Guidance - Speculation,
                    SF Books - Cybernetic SF & Donavon Who?, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 1841-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Obituary

George Stewart, author of the sf classic EARTH ABIDES, died last
Friday. He was 85.

------------------------------

Date:  26 August 1980 15:55 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  automobile autopilots

The closest publicly-installed thing to autopilots for cars that I
have heard of is a system currently running in and around Berlin.
It is basically a box in your car which is capable of tracking its
location in the city and providing directions to the driver.  Its
primary function currently is to allow traffic officials to direct
cars during heavy traffic periods.  This way you don't have to get
stuck in a traffic jam before you can begin to find a way around it.
However, they have future plans along the lines of an on-board road
map ("How do I get to the sports arena?"  "Well, turn right, then
left, then...").  I am not sure what the input-side of that user
interface will be like, but it is still interesting.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 1029-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Comment on lack of good computer stories.

    I think that we must also take note of when computers really began
to get powerful.  They really begin to be recognized in the 60's, at
the beginning of the "New Wave" in SF. You must admit that in the 40's
and the 50's there wasn't a really great state-of-the-art in computer
science.
    It is to be noted that much of the "New Wave" took pride in
its anti-technological attitude and its lack of understanding of
technology. It also took pride in its inability to write, a situation
that wasn't corrected until the "Old Wave" writers took pen in hand
and wrote good "New Wave" fiction.  I think you will find that much
of current SF doesn't depend on the writer having a good working
knowledge of any state of the art science.

        steve z.

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/26/80 15:42:28
Re: too complex for the literary imagination

Now wait a minute.  This idea that science is "too complex" to
understand is not only a complete fallacy, but it is a mislaying
of blame for the dubious state of the art of science fiction.

It is entirely possible that PARTICULAR literary imaginations find
science too complex to deal with in a reasonable way. But then again,
what kind of background do most science fiction writers have?  There
are very few serious scientists in the field.  There are a few more
people who are acquainted with some area of technology and are doing
a good job at thinking through the books that they are writing. There
are probably a number of authors who have turned to science fiction
for the freedom that the genre allows. And then, there is an abundance
of hacks who couldn't get a book published in any other area even if
they bribed the entire staff of a printing company.  The fans of sf
do not have an excellent record for demanding high quality literature.

The other thing which bothers me about the "too complex for the
imagination" argument is that it invokes this frightening image of
technology as the cornucopia of details which are too numerous to
hold in the mind. (Imagine struggling with a tough synthesis problem
in organic chemistry when WHAM! you pass out from over-exposure.) If
a person doesn't have the background to understand the technology
then I am certain that it can appear as an amorphous mass of details
with no organizing principles.

In truth, there is so much organization to this writhing mass that us
magicians routinely communicate with one another by way of abstracts,
one page summaries and the like.  The beauty of a powerful conception
in science is in its simplicity, not its complexity.

Now a science fiction author is in the hard position of imagining a
technological innovation and then predicting its consequences. This
problem is harder than making a reasonable stab at understanding
yet-to-be-invented technology.  There are more variables involved.
It requires writing skill as well as scientific know-how.  Still,
the author has a great deal of liberty to chose among the alternate
worlds that are constrained by the "facts" involved.  The mark of a
good science fiction author is that he/she carries off the task with
grace.

This melodrama, that science is "too complex for the literary
imagination" seems to me to be way out of line.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Donovon

  Practically all instances of disembodied brains controlling some-
  thing contain a reference to Donovans Brain. Even Larry Niven in
  one of early "Known Space" collections refers to it ("The Coldest
  Place" and one other set on Venus).           -- Brian <Lloyd at AI>

  In Tuesdays Digest, SALawerence briefly describes Niven's "Becalmed
  in Hell", and attributes it to Zelazny (in this story a human
  astronaut is teamed with a cyborg-spaceship/balloon/ramjet as they
  explore Venus. I have always assumed that when the cyborg sends a
  message to the astronaut and signs it "Donovan's Brain" that the
  cyborg is referring to the old (Crichton?) story as a joke, although
  there is some chance I guess that the cyborg was named Donovan...
                                     -- JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics

  There seems to be some confusion here. The story being related
  sounds suspiciously like "Becalmed in Hell", by Niven (not Zelazny).
  In this story, the ship is controlled by a disembodied brain which
  has been integrated into the controls.  The brain is referred to
  throughout the story as "Eric". The letter at the end of the story,
  which reads (the following is an exact quote):

       HOWIE COME HOME ALL IS FORGIVEN
                                DONOVANS BRAIN

  was sent by Eric to the other character in the story. It is clearly
  a humorous reference to the story/movie by Eric himself.  Any other
  interpretation would seem unlikely.    --  <Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY>

[ Thanks also to Dave Rossien and Dave Dyer for pointing out that this
  story was written by Niven.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/26/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 (Tuesday) 1937-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)

   Concerning the ability of Storm Troopers... remember in SW4 when
Obi-wan and Luke fint the Jawas (or whatever those little creatures
were called) have been ambushed.  Luke thinks the sandpeople did it,
but Obi-wan remarks "No... look at those blast points, they are too
accurate for anything but Imperial Storm troopers" [possible
paraphrasing but you get the point...]  Are these the same accurate
storm troopers we find throughout both movies????????????????
         Dave

------------------------------

Date: 26 August 1980 02:37-EDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <AQE at MIT-MC>
Subject: Lifting the X-wing in TESB: to be more specific.

First, I have to explain my understanding of the force. (This will
probably spawn a separate discussion.)

There are at least two dimensions to a Force-user: "power", and
"control".  "Power" measures how much brute strength the user can
muster; "control" measures how precisely the user can direct the
Force.  Tasks like telekineticizing a light sabre or lifting boxes,
droids, and X-wing fighters take varying degrees of power, but
almost no control. Instant hypnosis of a storm stooper, or dropping
a proton bomb into a small target takes very fine control, but very
little power.  For purposes of discussion, let's set up an arbitrary
scale for these attributes: two numbers between 3 and 18. 3 is very
low, 9-12 is about average, 18 is superhuman.  The distribution of
these numbers for the general population is a bell curve centered
on 10.5, and with a very small standard deviation.

Furthermore, it seems from various clues that power is inborn talent,
while control must be learned.

                               *   *   *

So, what is going on in the "lifting the X-wing" scene?  If power
is indeed inborn (genetic!), then Luke has a lot of it - Obiwan,
Yoda, AND Vader have been watching him since childhood. His control
however, is erratic (or perhaps non-existant: maybe Obiwan actually
controlled the bombing of the Death Star, and just needed Luke to
calm down and relax so he could take over).  And so he is sent to
Dagobah to learn the finer art of controlling the Force.  However,
he does not yet understand the difference between power and control,
and the necessity of the latter.  If he got an idea of how powerful
he was, he would be likely to quit school and run off to fight Vader.
So Yoda has a dilemma: he needs to impress Luke with the Force to keep
him interested, and the only aspect of the Force likely to interest
Luke is an exhibition of power; but at the same time he must keep Luke
unaware of Luke's own power. So he tells Luke to lift the X-wing. He
is sure Luke will fail and claim it's impossible; then Yoda will lift
it out, showing (1) the Force can be very powerful, (2) Luke is not
yet powerful, (3) Luke will be very powerful if he practices enough.
Perhaps Yoda even plans to put the X-wing back into the swamp, as
Gerrold suggests, to give Luke a very visible incentive.  However,
Luke concentrates, bubbles rise, the fighter shifts, begins to rise...
Yoda gets very alarmed and MAKES Luke fail according to plan by
pushing down. Then Yoda gives the big demo. BUT: he can't very well
put it back in the swamp for Luke to lift, because Luke WILL lift
it the very next time he tries.

So if Yoda is the little trickster JoAnn and I think he is, Gerrold's
objection goes away.  From reading Gerrold's article, he seems to have
decided early on that TESB was just a comic book, and was not going to
have any subtleties worth looking for.  Well, I disagree, but we will
really have to wait for more of the series to come out before we can
pass judgement. As it stands, the only real evidence is Yoda's facial
expressions. When the X-wing starts to rise, his eyebrows lift in
surprise; but is there alarm there, too?  When it starts to sink
again, Yoda's head sinks with it; is this dissappointment, or a
gesture accompanying a use of the Force?  And afterwards, is he
resigned to more teaching, or tired from struggling with a
powerful Force-user?

Only Lucas knows for sure.
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 2001-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: TESB: "traditional vision of Buddhist masters"

     There is lots of playfulness in some of the Buddhist masters.
Try anything, anything at all in Japanese Zen Buddhism, for instance.
(Read "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones", e.g.)  Also, Yoda's not forcing anyone
to do anything is characteristic; when Luke confronts him in the next
episode to find out about the father/Vader business, Y probably won't
answer his question, because that is not Y's way.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 1943-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: TESB IN ALTERNATE UNIVERSALS

It became clear what the point of lifting the X-wing was when, after
Yoda lifted the fighter, all the little rotoscoped chipmunks popped
out of the slime and sang "When you wish upon a star."
                Mike

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 08/26/80 07:16:06 Re: The Last Hope (Alternate Universe)

Princess Leia into Beastiality?  I always knew she liked the strong,
silent type.  Say guys, the Princess and a guy like me?  Whaddya
think?
                No?!?!? (snicker)
                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 AUG 1980 0653-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #59
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Thursday, 28 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:        D&D Revisited, SF Books - Cybernetic SF,
                Vehicle Guidance- Speculation, SF Bloopers - ST & All,
                SF Movies - Dr. Strange & TESB, Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 August 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: News stories on James Dallas Egbert III

Last fall James Egbert was in the news because of a suspected
connection between his disappearance and his obsession with D&D.
Two weeks ago he was in the news as an apparent suicide victim.
Now he is dead. Stuart Cracraft has provided copies of the three
newswire stories about Egbert.  Copies of the stories have been
established in files at the sites listed below.  Everyone should
obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them.
If you are unable to do so, please send mail to
SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make sure that
you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods
for providing space for the materials on their systems, and to
Stuart Cracraft for making the stories available to us.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI        AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS EGBERT
CMUA          temp:egbert.sfl[a210dp0z]
PARC-MAXC     [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLovers-Egbert.TXT
Rutgers       Ps:<Solomon>Egbert.Sf-Lovers
SU-AI         EGBERT.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics   >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>egbert.text

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 08/27/80 0955-EDT
From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject: Science and Literary Imagination

     Re DGSHAP's comments on the notion that science and technology
have become too complex to be encompassed by the literary imagination:
Strong backgrounds in both science/technology and literary tradition
are required in order to produce high quality SF.  The state of the
art in SF depends on the ability of the authors to master both fields.
Probably very few people are capable of achieving this double mastery.
(Think of the investment of time and resources that would be required
to earn both a B.A. in English and a Bachelor's degree in a technical
field, and then consider higher degrees in both areas.  I don't mean
to imply that formal education is the only way of acquiring the
background needed to produce worthwhile SF, but the amount of work
required is comparable.)  The state of the art in SF is still quite
primitive, in my opinion, and I think that this difficulty is a good
part of the reason. Most SF have attained higher than average levels
of "literacy" in both some aspects of science/technology and the
humanities, but are masters of neither. Some are stronger in one area
and correspondingly weaker in the other. The lack of intelligent,
realistic, treatments of computer science in SF is explained by
the fact that nobody who has invested the energy to become a fully
competent "computer scientist" has also had the time, energy, and
inclination to pick up the humanities background and writing skills
needed to write high quality SF.

                                      Regards,
                                           KGH

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 27 August 1980  13:06-EDT
From: John A. Pershing Jr. <JPERSHING at BBNA>
Subject: Thoughts on surface travel <VAD at MIT-MC>

I, personally, wouldn't want to depend on the reliability of everyone
else's automobile's guidance processors -- particularly coming back
from the Cape on a Sunday evening.  Imagine the traffic jam when one
car gets a "parity" error and HALTS (even if only for a minute or
two).  Considering how reluctant people are to even fix a broken
headlight (in spite of semi-annual inspections), I'm sure nobody
would bother to have their autopilots repaired.  A mix of 50%
autopilot and 50% manual during heavy traffic conditions would be
disastrous, causing gross oscillitory behavior between the basically
conservative autopilots and the vicious, tail-gating humans.

  -jp

------------------------------

Date:  26 August 1980 16:07 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  communicating with Capt. Pike

This reminds me of the cross-country trip I took in a caravan of three
cars, all equipped with CB radios.  Early on one of the radios broke
and ceased to transmit for the duration of the trip, although it was
still able to receive.  We finally arrived at the "solution" of
flashing turn signals to indicate responses to inquiries from other
cars. Thus, communication became like a game of 20 questions: "Do you
want something?"; <flash left signal for "yes">; "Is it important?";
<flash right for "no">; "Do you need gas?"; <right signal>; "Do you
want to stop for something to eat?"; <flash left>.  And so on.

We also developed a method for spelling: divide the alphabet up into a
5x5 matrix, then index it by flashing the left n times for the row and
the right m times for the column.  "Z" was indicated by hazard lights.
Needless to say, all this worked much better in the dark.  Oh well, I
guess that this is a bit off of the point, but it does show that
communication is possible with limited resources.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 (Tuesday) 1255-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: More StarTrek Bloopers

At the end of a random episode, as the Enterprise is about to fly off
happily into the sunset, Kirk turns to Spock and says, "Take us out
of orbit, Mr. Spock.".  Coincidentally, Spock is manning the scanner
controls, and Sulu is at the helm.  I don't recall ever having seen
the Enterprise controlled from Spock's station (other than the self
destruct sequence), and it occurs to me the dialog might as well have
been:

   Kirk:  "Take us out of orbit, Bones".
   McCoy: (approaching Kirk with hypodermic):
          "This should make you see stars, Jim old boy".

Or something similar.  I believe it was the same episode in which
the Enterprise was shown in orbit about some planet with the stars
whizzing by at about warp 3.  - Dave

------------------------------

Date:  27 August 1980 13:24 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Nits, Inconsistency/Calibration

Many flaws have been detected in SW.  Is this because there are
an unusually high number in SW, or because we've given it so much
thought?  (Any estimates as to number of person-years devoted to
SFL alone?)  Probably the latter, but to test this, what say we all
criticise some other work, and see.  Maybe EVERYTHING is broken. I
suggest Herman Melville's "Moby Dick".  Any takers?

------------------------------

CTD@MIT-AI 08/27/80 02:59:02

The other evening, the CBS late movie was a show called "Dr. Strange"
(not Strangelove!) That was a pretty fair fantasy/SF thriller. It had
many dungeons and dragons type overtones such as travel on the astral
planes, etc., and overall, I really liked it.  What I am wondering is
that judging from the way the movie ended, it must have been a pilot
for some series that never made it.  Does anyone know anything about
this show more that that?  Thanks-
    ___
  / * * \
 <       >
  \ \_/ /
    ---

   CTD

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 at 0300-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS

^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...FROM MY FRIEND THE ULTIMATE SW FAN... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Heard from sound effects superstar Ben Burtt (boy! it sure helps when
you can identify yourself as `a friend of Tony Daniels`) about that
`Ee choo ta` his twin snaps at C-3PO right after they've landed at
Cloud City.  Burtt says it's `too horrible an insult to put in writing
in this letter`.  He refers to similar droid insults in SW-4, citing
droid `racial prejudice` in the galaxy far far away.  Any guesses as
to the `rude` meaning of the remark?  I have several interesting ones,
all of which would embarrass our hero, Goldenrod, no end."

[How about, `Oh, go recharge yourself!`?  HJJH]

"Another funny nickname for Threep, which didn't make it through the
final cut of the film, was `Bronze Britches`.

"Tony says the radio version of SW-4 has a lot of good new lines, even
better than the original movie's.

"Added 4 EMPIRE coloring books to the TESB collection.  They would
probably shock some over-protective mothers -- drawings of Chewie
strangling Lando, Luke in anguish and pain, Vader killing admirals.
The only concession is that Luke keeps \both/ his hands!

"Was watching my videotape of THE LITTLE PRINCE and realized why the
name of Clive Revill (voice of the Emperor) on the TESB credits was
familiar.  He does the role of the businessman in TLP.

"My regards to your computer friends, and I am NOT the ultimate SW
fan!  Mark Hamill's collection MUST be far better than mine!"

Carlotta Barnes

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/28/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss apparent anomalies within Niven's Known Space series. Spoilers
for some of the stories and novels within this series are involved.
People who are not familiar with the series may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 AUG 1980 1519-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: tnuctip & Pak???

  I don't think so; the Tnuctip slave in WORLD OF PTAVVS fit into a
man-size slaver space suit along with a lot of equipment. I also think
the dates are wrong because the Pak were an ancient civilization 2.5
million years ago (though I can't remember the estimated age of the
"sea statue" that turns out to be the Thrint (slaver)).  Also the
Tnuctip are said to have disappeared without a trace along with the
slavers as a result of the revolt---people discover occasional caches
of Thrint/Tnuctip goods which are fantastic finds.  The personality
profiles even for immature Pak seem too far from the Tnuctip.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 08/24/80 15:46:43 Re:  Known Space, Pak and Tnuctipun

I sincerely doubt the Pak are the Tnuctipun. The Tnuctipun were
masters at genetic engineering but the Pak who led the first
migration to Earth were unable to deal with the problems with
Tree-of-life virus. It wasn't until Brennan that a Pak (in this
case I include Brennan) solved the problem.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 26 AUG 1980 0220 EDT
From: Roger Duffey <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: Speculation on the Ringworld engineers

The speculations about Known Space anomalies are interesting. However
I think they point to a conclusion that everyone is overlooking:
          The Pak are not the original Ringworld engineers.

Remember that all our knowledge of the Ringworld comes from the
observations of 2 small exploration parties and the conclusions Wu
and Ch'mee draw from them.  They could be wrong and the anomalies
seem to indicate that they are.

Instead consider the following outline which accounts for what we now
know.  Long ago there was yet another race within Known Space.  They
may be unknown to the current cultures within Known Space. They built
the Ringworld for reasons that we can only guess at with the evidence
at hand.  (For some interesting speculation see the article on large
structures in Niven's ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS.) Then they disappear. They
may have died out, or they may have dispersed.  Again we can only
speculate with the evidence at hand.  At some later point in time the
Pak discover the Ringworld which they colonize.  In time they proceed
to adapt parts of the Ringworld to themselves creating the evidence
which Wu uses to conclude incorrectly that the Pac were the Ringworld
engineers.

There are many different ways of filling in this outline.  I think
it may be possible to extend it to account for all of the anomalies.
It is guesswork at this stage. However, there may be further evidence
on the Ringworld or elsewhere in Known Space.  And perhaps Niven will
tell us one day.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 AUG 1980 0514-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #60
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Friday, 29 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:         What Happens at a Con?, D&D Revisited,
                    Space - Colonization, SF Books - Cybernetic SF
                              & Wizard, SF Bloopers - ST,
                SF Movies - Dr. Strange & TESB, Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1980 0220 EDT
From: Richard Stallman
Subject: Of possible interest to Con goers

The L5 Society will host an open party at NorEasCon II. Guests include
Poul Anderson, Jim Baen, Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and James Hogan
among others. The party will be held in Hynes Room 204, from 5 to 7 PM
on Sunday, 31 August.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 1402-PDT
From: CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE
Subject: Deja Vu

One more strange addition to the already strange and sad story of
James Dallas Egbert, if such would be possible:

     The poem "Final Destination", written by Egbert and found
during his 1979 disappearance, is almost certainly a rewrite of
the song sung by Bobby Joy in "The Law of Conservation of Pain",
included in Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, by Spider Robinson. It
was a very strange feeling to come across it in the collected news
stories on Egbert - obviously Spider's themes of communication vs
loneliness related to Egbert's personal problems.

     Unfortunately, only the story had a happy ending.

                                        -Barry Eynon

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 at 1310-CDT
From: david at UTEXAS 
Subject: Good Reading for the Discussion
To: energy at mc

Just back from vacation, I haven't digested all 174 mail messages
waiting for me. On vacation I got a chance to read many interesting
books. Three in particular seem most germane to recent and current
discussions in these distribution lists.

And I, for my part, will read Pournelle's book to see what insights
it might offer.

The references are:

  AN INCOMPLETE GUIDE TO THE FUTURE, by Willis W. Harman,
  The Portable Stanford, Stanford Alumni Association, 1976.

  SMALL IS BEAUTIFUL (Economics As If People Mattered),
  by E.F. Schumacher, Harper & Row, 1973.

  SPACE COLONIES, edited by Stewart Brand, Penguin, 1977.

In SPACE COLONIES there is a beautifully expressive letter from
Wendell Berry (pp. 36-37).  I wish I could reproduce the whole
thing for you, since it responds so well to the "unlimited growth"
advocates.  To titilate your thinking on the subject, consider
Berry's opening paragraph...

  Mr. Gerard O'Neill's space colony project is offered in the Fall
  1975 'CoEvolution Quarterly' as the solution to virtually all the
  problems rising from the limitations of our earthly environment.
  That it will solve all of these problems is a possibility that,
  even after reading the twenty-six pages devoted to it, one may
  legitimately doubt.  What cannot be doubted is that the project
  is an ideal solution to the moral dilemma of all those in this
  society who cannot face the necessities of meaningful change. It
  is superbly attuned to the wishes of the corporation executives,
  bureaucrats, militarists, political operators, and scientific
  experts who are the chief beneficiaries of the forces that have
  produced our crisis.
  . . .

Yours in learning,
DAVID m phillips @UTEXAS

------------------------------

RMS@MIT-AI 08/26/80 05:31:26 Re: It can't be THAT easy to criticize

The study of space development and its consequences is being
undertaken by lots of serious scientists. There are plenty of places
where an insurmountable problem might still conceivably turn up. But
there aren't any obvious problems, so anything obvious that looks
like a problem isn't really a problem.

To refute one example: according to the scenarios, 1) space colonies
would accept more people than one might think, and 2) prosperity from
space investments would reduce the Earth birthrate to much less than
today, so that space colonies could absorb it.  So where does the
moral question of "abandoning Earth" come in?

There is a lot of handwaving in all economic models, so perhaps
a careful investigation would unveil many problems, but that's
a different story from saying "Well, I can't see how it could
possibly..."

If a flaw in space colonization plans were THAT obvious, people would
not be taking them seriously.  I wish that the people who see such
glaring, obvious faults in space colonization (or anything else) would
give the people working on it credit for enough intelligence to have
seen the faults themselves, if they were so obvious.  And check with
them in private to see if they have an answer, before going public.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 0544-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: Info for various references

Re the Computers in SF query:

This may not qualify strictly, as the computer/program/AI aspects
are important to the plot and structure, and are discussed in depth,
but I hesitate to characterize their treatment as realistic, as they
are so anthropomorphic and advanced.  In any case, they are worth
mentioning --

Frederik Pohl, GATEWAY, and it's sequel, BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT
HORIZON. In both of these books, AI programs are referred to
over and over, and form some of the most important "characters".
Mini-review is that GATEWAY is a better book than BEYOND..., but I
have not yet finished the latter -- just read GATEWAY a few days
ago and am following it with BEYOND... immediately. Perhaps sequels
always suffer when so immediately compared?

For what its worth...

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 (Tuesday) 0852-EST
From: DYER at NBS-10

     Anybody out there read John Varley's WIZARD yet?  (In case you
didn't know about it, WIZARD is a sequel to TITAN, and is the second
book of a \trilogy/ following the basic theme (that of a 'living
world') set forth in TITAN.) (For reasons that become obvious as you
reach WIZARD's ending, I think that the third book is going to be
called DEMON...I guess....)
     WIZARD is a \good/ book -- I couldn't put the book down. I think
this one is gonna win....

zemon

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 2:04 pm PDT (Thursday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Dr. Strange

CTD failed to mention (perhaps wasn't aware) that the movie "Dr.
Strange" was based on the Marvel comic book character.  The movie
was about the way Dr.  Strange came to acquire his supernatural
powers; I don't know whether the movie matched the comic book in
this regard.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 1003-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dr. Strange movie.

To CTD@MIT-AI whoever (whomever?) you are, the Dr. Strange thing you
saw was probably the pilot for a show called Dr. Strange which never
got off the ground.  It was one of several things done due to the
success of the Hulk on television.  The show was to be a spinoff(?)
of the Dr. Strange comicbook produced by Marvel comics.  Compared to
the current general quality of the comic the movie was poor. Try to
pick up a copy of the comic book. I will be happy to supply background
material on Dr. Strange if you wish.

        steve z.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 08/28/80 08:23:48 Re: Dr. Strange and other Delights

Dr. Strange is an obscure comic book hero.  The movie "Dr. Strange"
was a pilot around the time when super-heros were the rage.

When I was an undergrad at San Diego State University about eight
years ago, several of us built a mail system on the statewide
timesharing system ( also called ITS).  One of the things we did was
to have a signature contest.  Everyone created a signature file and
appended it to each message.  After a month, we voted on the best
one.  Patterns and catchy phrases were acceptable (one guy signed
his "the cunning linguist" which not everyone thought was in good
taste).  I suggest signatures be kept to five lines or less.

                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 28 August 1980 21:40-EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Pike's inability to use morse code

My rationalization of that is that Pike did not have on-off control of
the light, but the light just showed his emotional state.  I could see
it being VERY hard to do Morse code by changing your emotional state.

------------------------------

Date: 26 August 1980 2114-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Mike.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E)
Subject: Computer Hindered dog fighting

     The other day I saw a short piece on the network news about an
airplane that couldn't be tracked by a computer.  Apparently the shape
of the plane tended to give false radar echoes, and the plane itself
was covered with a paint that didn't reflect radar.  If this sort of
technology was used by the Star Wars characters, it would explain why
they are always aiming by hand and missing so much.

     By the way, all these spoiler warnings are getting to me.  Is
there anybody out there who hasn't seen TESB?

                -mike fryd

[ It is not enough to ask if all of the current readers have seen
  TESB, because that readership is constantly changing with new
  additions to the list. Further, complete archives of SFL are being
  kept.  The future readers of the archives certainly include people
  who will not have seen TESB.  The spoiler warnings give everyone
  the opportunity to choose whether to read material that may spoil
  a work for them if they are not familiar with it.  Its important
  that the criteria be applied as uniformly as possible.      -- RDD ]

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/27/80 14:30:00
Re:  chipmunks bursting into song (what's a song?)

No no no no, those weren't chipmunks. That was a phalanx of captured
empire drive animals singing a freedom chant. (Who do you think powers
all those big ships anyway?)

By the way, the little critters can also be modified to fuel
light-sabers, which makes them very important to the jedi (remember
Yoda's astonished look?!).  If your saber ever runs out of juice in
the middle of a tight spot, all you have to do is cram in a couple
of fresh gerbils and you're ready to rip.

                Dan

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It
discusses apparent anomalies within Niven's Known Space series.
Spoilers for some of the stories and novels within this series
are involved.  People who are not familiar with the series may
not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 0749-EDT
From: VAF at MIT-DMS (Vincent A. Fuller, III)
Subject: Pak=Tnuctip? etc.

In response to the idea that perhaps the Pak were actually tnuctip,
I think it very unlikely. The Pak date back about 2.5 Million years,
while, according to World or Ptavvs, the 'Sea statue' (Kzanol, last
of the Thrint [slaver] race) dates back about 2 Billion years. Also
according to World or Ptavvs, the tnuctip were wiped out in the war
with the Thrints some 2*10^9 years ago (Specifically, the Thrint
were said/speculated to have build a telepathy amplifier that would
bring the entire galaxy under control at one time.).

   In response to the idea that the Ringworld was not built by the
Pak, this seems reasonable to assume--there was never any mention,
in any Known Space novel or story, of a transmutation device known
to the Pak.  Such a device would seem to be a necessity in forming
the 'scrith' that the Ringworld was constructed of. After all, why
would the Pak have been using nuclear radiation based weapons when
warring at home if such a protection was available?

   Another comment (unconnected). Upon reading parts of World of
Ptaavs again, I notice a statement to the effect that the female
Thrint is non-sentient. The only other race mentioned possesing this
trait is the Kzinti race...  From supplied illustrations, one can
see that the physical forms are roughly similar...Could the Kzinti
be a surviving branch of Thrint or semi-Thint? Comments? 

Vince

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 AUG 1980 0732-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #61
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest    Saturday, 30 August 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 61

 Today's Topics: D&D Revisited, Here's the Plot - What's the Title?,
                    SF Books - Niven and Pournelle Collaboration,
                           SF Movies - Dr. Strange & TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 08/29/80 23:37:40

     In the name of decency let the poor child rest in peace!  Why is
that all the morbid people start yammering when somone dies?  We all
know about his adventures in the steam tunnels and his death from LACK
of D&D.  Yes, LACK.  They made him STOP.  SO let him sleep!

                                                        Matt

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1980 0412-PDT (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: story query

Can anyone out there identify the following story?  A spaceship
has landed on a bizarre planet where all the various lifeforms are
connected into the group "mind" of the planet.  Various creatures
have tried all sorts of tricks to gain access, and finally a small
worm-like creature does.  It is waiting to get back to Earth, at
which time it can mentally send a signal that will cause all future
Earth births to be integrated into a similar group mind. It disguises
itself as a piece of wire by knawing out a piece of a real wire and
connecting itself between the two ends. When the ship reaches Earth,
it is all set to send its signal, when suddenly it vaporizes.  Turns
out it had attached itself into the airlock circuit and got zapped
when they opened the door.

Ring a bell for anyone?  Thanks much.

--Lauren--

[ The story is Green Patches (originally entitled Misbegotten
  Missionary) by Isaac Asimov.  --  Richard Brodie ]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 2035-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Niven & Pournelle

             Niven and Pournelle
By AUDREY V. IRWIN     Associated Press Writer

    STUDIO CITY, Calif. (AP) - Robert Heinlein, the dean of modern
science fiction, called the first collaboration between authors Larry
Niven and Jerry Pournelle - "The Mote in God's Eye" - "possibly the
finest science fiction novel I have ever read."
    Their latest collaboration, "Lucifer's Hammer," spent 10 weeks
on the best-seller list. It was nominated for science fiction's top
two literary awards, the Hugo and the Nebula. More than a million
copies of the novel, printed in seven languages, have been sold.
    Sitting on the shady patio outside Pournelle's home in this Los
Angeles suburb, the authors explained how they got together.
    "I tracked him down and made him an offer he couldn't refuse,"
said Pournelle, who had written two science fiction novels, two
detective novels (under the name of Wade Curtis) and numerous
magazine pieces before teaming up with Niven.
    The 47-year-old Pournelle said he had seen some of Niven's
work (six novels and five short story collections before their
collaboration), liked his style and decided to offer him a writing
partnership.
    Pournelle's "unrefusable" offer was to rewrite collaborated
works from cover to cover to eliminate any inconsistencies. Niven,
who was to have final veto power on their work, took him up on it.
    "We then set out to write the book we wanted to read when we
started reading science fiction," said the 42-year-old Niven, "the
ultimate space opera."
    Niven and Pournelle first sit down and discuss the general outline
of a proposed novel and decide who's going to write the first draft.
The partners later divide up characters and scenarios.
    "The crazy ideas are generally mine.  When a character gets
hysterical, its mostly mine," Niven said explaining what would seem
to be an encroachment into Pournelle's territory.
    Pournelle usually writes about the characters that "bull" their
way through one situation after another, "and Jerry designs the evil
characters," Niven added.
    When the manuscript of "The Mote" was completed, Niven and
Pournelle mailed a copy of it to Robert Heinlein, one of the most
respected writers in the field of science fiction and the author of
30 novels. By return mail, the pair received a 60-page, single-spaced
letter from Heinlein suggesting changes in story line and characters.
    "It was the longest letter I ever got," Pournelle said. "We
looked at it and it all made sense so we went through and did it."
    They sent a revised manuscript back to Heinlein. Apparently the
author was amazed, no one had ever followed his advice before, the
writing team said.
    "The Mote in God's Eye" finally hit the book stores, with
Heinlein's endorsement, after a three-year effort.
    The team then began work on the still-unfinished "Oath to
Fealty."  Work on that novel was interrupted when Niven came up
with another idea.
    "Suddenly, I said there's something that I wanted to do and we
went for it," he remembered. The team began work on a modernized
version of Dante's "Inferno."
    The authors' next collaboration was the best-selling novel,
"Lucifer's Hammer." Like "The Mote," "Lucifer's Hammer" was
long, well researched and had a plethora of characters - the three
ingredients that are needed to write a best selling novel, according
to Niven.
    "Our books are superbly researched," said Pournelle. The latest
information available on scientific and astronomical phenomena, such
as the cometary halo in "Hammer," is used and presented to the
reader so fact can be distinguished from fiction, the author asserted.
    The authors, who received more than $1 per word each for
"Lucifer's Hammer," compared to about 1.5 cents per word when they
were first published, said they began collaborating because they
needed each other's skills.
    "Phrasology is slightly more my thing than his," Niven said of
his partner. "But, I plot better than he does," Pournelle quickly
inserted. "I tend to write logically and tightly."
    "There is no excuse for writing a book (together) unless neither
one of you could do it alone," said Niven. "Collaborating is real
hard work."
    Besides teaming up on novels, the two authors also have worked
together as consultants on a screenplay. Following the short-lived
release of Disney Studio's "Watcher in the Woods," Niven and
Pournelle were called in to work on a new ending for the film,
which should be re-released this fall.
    The pair would work as technical advisers (or write the screenplay
"if they would ask us to") on films based on their collaborations.
Their works have been optioned by movie studios, but neither seemed
optimistic that they would see their stories on the big screen.
    Citing the enormous cost involved for special effects, Pournelle
said, "One paragraph could cost them a million dollars."

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1980 0701-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dr. Strange.

The story in the movie followed the original close enough to be
recognizable but changed enough to be annoying to Dr. Strange's
following.  Dr. Strange is one of those characters with a small
but very faithful following.  I suspect that his comic book is
marginally profitable.

        steve z.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/30/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1980 0317-PDT (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: my thoughts on TESB (finally!)

Many people have been questioning why I have not made any comment
concerning TESB to SF-LOVERS.  Well, it took me awhile to get around
to seeing it (I hate watching movies when half the audience yells out
lines before they are spoken, when I have never seen the movie before,
so I waited for awhile). I also did not want to send a message until
the mainstream of discussion had died down, so I have waited until
now even though I saw the film quite some time ago.

Just about everything that CAN be said about TESB seems to have
already been said, so I will just make a couple of short comments:

1) Vader (my favorite character in the films by far) is Luke's father.
   No clones, clowns, or ice cream cones.  Anything else would be too
   complex for Lucas' universe to manage.

2) We have not met "the other" yet.  Lucas has a lot of hours to fill
   in yet, and he will surely save such a goodie for a later episode.

I should add that this is all based on the erroneous assumption that
the SW universe is a "fixed" entity.  Obviously, Lucas can change
anything he wants whenever he wants, so all speculation is clearly
little more than an academic exercise.

Oh yeah, about the special effects.  They were pretty good, but matte
lines were clearly visible in several places and the stop-action
animation was really pretty bad.  Still, they do great "door" effects
(SLAM!), which I have always liked.  Overall, I liked the film more
than SW, simply because it was less comic-booky and had a bit of real
character development.  I look forward to the next chapter.  By the
time it comes out, the entry fee to a theater should be around $7.50.
Sigh.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1980 at 0643-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LUKE'S VISION-- AND DECISION ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Steve's analysis of the X-wing raising scene was a very cogent one.
Personally, I'd only quibble about one point: his saying Luke "only
sees his friends in danger when he questions Yoda about being able
to 'see the future'".  Here is that scene (with line-initial dots
marking what's in the dialog album)--

.YODA:   Concentrate.  Feel the Force ...flow.  Yes.

.R2-D2:  {bleepity}<scared at being elevated by Luke>

.YODA:   Good.  Calm, yes.  Through the Force, things you will see
.        ...other places, the future, the past, old friends long
.        gone.

.LUKE:   <becoming distressed, loses concentration>  Han?  Leia!
.        <lets objects drop, including R2>

.R2-D2:  {bleepity}{screams}

.YODA:   Control, control, you must learn conTROL!

.R2-D2:  {bleepity}

.LUKE:   I saw -- I saw a City in the Clouds.

.YODA:   Hmm.  Friends you have there.

.LUKE:   They were in pain.

 YODA:   It is the future you see.

 LUKE:   Future?  . . . <suddenly quietly resolute> Will they die?

 YODA:   <concentrates>  Difficult to see.  Always in motion is the
         future.

.LUKE:   I{'ve} gotta go to them.

.YODA:   Decide you must, how to serve them best.  {But} if you leave
         now, help them you could, but . . . you will destroy ALL for
         which they have fought ...and suffered.

..............................

To switch to the point of whether Luke should have gone to Bespin...
TESB's director views that question in much the same way as it has
come to seem to me -- as a ranking of moral obligations.  Of Luke's
need to decide between remaining to gain powers that could save the
galaxy, or leaving to try to save his friends, Kershner says:

  "This decision is the element of ambiguity that makes the picture's
   content so rich.  Whatever Luke decides can be interpreted 2 ways.
   His decision can be seen as a character strength or a character
   weakness, depending on how you look at it. What is more moral: to
   try to save the world or to attempt to rescue the friends closest
   to your heart?  That is the moral dilemma at the heart of the
   matter."

[This quote, by the way, is from Alan Arnold's ONCE UPON A GALAXY, the
just-out pb about the making of TESB, which I'll review as soon as I
get a chance.  (In brief: only fairly interesting reading, except to
us TESB buffs, of course.)]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 AUG 1980 0813-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #62
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Sunday, 31 August 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 62

 Today's Topics: SF Article Ref, Bibliography Queries and Responses,
                                Locus Award Results,
                    SF Books - Female Protagonist & Cybernetic SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1980 0927-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: SF IN THE MAINSTREAM

     The "BOOKWORLD" section of the Washington Post's Sunday edition
(8/24/80) is evidence of SF's passage into the mainstream.  Not only
was there a full page review, by Lupoff, of three real SF novels
(Number of the Beast, bad; Songmaster by Card, good; Wizard by Varley,
bad), but Tom Disch and Leguin each reviewed totally non-SF works.
Neither was identified as SF-oriented, although Disch was credited
as having received the Campbell award.

                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 1856-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dorsai

On the question of Dickson's Dorsai or Childe cycle: I understand
that originally there were to be 9 books. 3 historical fiction, 3
present day fiction, and 3 SF. I also read that publishers were
unwilling to put out SF books of the size of the 3 proposed so they
were each split in half. So far only 4 books have been published (or
so I believe, correct me if I am wrong).  These are "Necromancer",
"Tactics of Mistake", "Dorsai!", and "Soldier Ask Not". That is the
order of their internal chronology (ie read them in that order), not
the order of their publication.  Dickson is said to be working on at
least two more books in the cycle at this time.  I don't know about
anyone else but I EAGERLY await these two books.
   In addition to the books there are several short stories
associated with the cycle. Three of these are gathered together with
a thin connecting tissue in "Spirit of Dorsai" (I'm not positive of
the title, it should be in books in print though), one of these is
the very strong story "Brothers" from the collection "Astounding"
published in memory of John Campbell.  The related stories also
include "Lulungomeena", "The Lost Dorsai" (published recently in
Destinies), and "Man of War" (as usual I'm not sure of the title,
this is an older story and I'm not sure where to find it).
    Two other Dickson books, "Home From the Shore" and "The Space
Swimmers", deal with a theme/subject (I don't know which word to
use) similar to that of the Childe cycle.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1980 0220 EDT
From: Roger D. Duffey, II <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: Dickson's Childe Cycle

Listing the future segment of the Childe Cycle is a confusing task.
Over the years that Dickson has been writing it, he has published
material from the cycle in a variety of forms, from short story to
novel, and under several names.  Now as the future portion of the
cycle nears completion the various pieces are being brought together
with the appropriate framing material.  The confusion comes in
determining out how older work has been rearranged, expanded, and
retitled.

According to an Ace advertisement, they will bring out the 5 books
of the future segment of the Childe cycle in trade paperback form.
Currently, 4 of the 5 books are available.  They are DORSAI!;
SOLDIER, ASK NOT; THE SPIRIT OF THE DORSAI; and LOST DORSAI. LOST
DORSAI includes excerpts from the fifth book to be entitled THE
FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA. Steve has explained THE SPIRIT OF DORSAI. A
cursory bookstore examination of LOST DORSAI indicates that it
is a minor reworking of the Destinies novella. The excerpt and
illustrations fill it out to full size.

I am not sure how all of the earlier titles which Steve lists will
map into the 5 Ace books, if indeed all of them will.  However, I
have one speculation to offer on the basis of the framing material
in the SF Book Club's THREE TO DORSAI, a single volume collection of
"Necromancer", "Tactics of Mistake", and "Dorsai!".  I suspect that
THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA will include the material in "Necromancer"
and turn the future segment of the Childe Cycle into a non-recursive
time loop.

						Cheers,
						   Roger

------------------------------

Date: 24 AUG 1980 1513-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: acronymic curses

  That came up in the PLAYBOY adviser (which I confess to reading
during my borading-school youth); their etymologist claimed that it
was in fact not an acronym but came from German "ficken" (roughly),
"to beat" (compare w. English synonym "to bang").

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 08/29/80 09:15:41

Donavan's Brain is a classic by Clifford Simak about a disembodied
brain which controls his doctors into homicide and crime through
mental commands.  The thesis is that since he cannot excercise his
arms, he exercises those other parts of his brain - telepathy.  I
suspect that Niven was making a sci-fi internal reference, as we've
been talking about recently.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1980 12:23 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: On Computers in SF.

Don't robots count?

Other books: The Two Faces Of Janus (James P. Hogan)
             A few flaws, but the author knows his CS
                (He is a DEC employee)
             Colossus (D.F Jones) and its attendant
                movie, "The Forbin Project".

There are others, but I don't remember a lot of names.

[ The Hogan book is entitled THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW. Hogan quit his
  job with DEC to become a full time writer.  COLOSSUS is the first
  book of a trilogy. The other books are entitled THE FALL OF COLOSSUS
  and COLOSSUS AND THE CRAB.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1980 2236-PDT
From: Andrew Knutsen <knutsen at SRI-KL>
Subject: info

     What about making an SF INFO node? Cross-treed by author, title,
topic, etc, and filled with all the reviews this bibliography thing is
generating (among others)... (with optional rating). Could even be
open-maintained...

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 1307-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: 1980 Locus Award results

                          1980 Locus Awards

BEST SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL                           Votes/Points/1sts
1) TITAN, John Varley (Berkley/Putnam)                 305  1982   87
2) JEM, Frederick Pohl (St. Martin's)                  202  1288   46
3) THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE, Arthur C. Clarke         192  1221   53
     (Harcourt)      

BEST FANTASY NOVEL
1) HARPIST IN THE WIND, Patricia McKillip (Atheneum)   189  1314   87
2) THE DEAD ZONE, Stephen King (Viking)                146  1046   85
3) TALES OF NEVERYON, Samuel R. Delany (Bantam)        113   767   44

BEST NOVELLA
1) "Enemy Mine", Barry B. Longyear (IA's, Sept. '79)   172  1242   95
2) "Songhouse", Orson Scott Card (Analog, Sept. '79)   174  1206   84
3) "Palely Loitering", Christopher Priest              150  1043   64
     (F&SF, Jan. '79)

BEST NOVELETTE
1) "Sandkings", George R. R. Martin (Omni, Aug. '79)   203  1445  107
2) "Options", John Varley (UNIVERSE 9)                 132   896   53
3) "Fireflood", Vonda N. McIntyre (F&SF, Nov '79)      118   743   29

BEST SHORT STORY
1) "The Way of Cross and Dragon"                       122   838   52
     George R. R. Martin (Omni, 6/79)
2) "giANTS", Edward Bryant (Analog, Aug. '79)           99   632   26
3) "Quietus", Orson Scott Card (Omni, Aug '79)          58   375   14

BEST ANTHOLOGY
1) UNIVERSE 9, Terry Carr, ed. (Doubleday)             143   985   62
     orig. works
2) THE BEST OF NEW DIMENSIONS,                         118   797   39
     Robert Silverberg, ed. (Pocket) reprint
3) THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #8,             93   603   25
      Terry Carr, ed. (Del Rey) reprint

BEST SINGLE AUTHOR COLLECTION
1) CONVERGENT SERIES, Larry Niven (Del Rey)            140   952   56
2) EYES OF AMBER, Joan D. Vinge (Signet)               138   929   53
3) THE STARS ARE THE STYX, Theodore Sturgeon (Dell)    108   725   41

BEST ART OR ILLUSTRATED BOOK
1) BARLOWE'S GUIDE TO EXTRATERRESTRIALS,               189  1363  106
     Barlowe & Summers (Workman)
2) H.R. GIGER'S NECRONOMICON (Big 0)                    87   569   26
3) ALIEN LANDSCAPES, Holdstock & Edwards (mayflower)    80   558   34

BEST ARTIST
1) Michael Whelan                                      159  1141   81
2) Stephen Fabian                                      124   828   44
3) Boris Vallejo                                        83   559   30

BEST MAGAZINE
1) F&SF                                                348  2476  196
2) Locus                                               289  1927   92
3) Analog                                              241  1576   50

BEST BOOK PUBLISHER
1) Ballantine/Del Rey                                  275  1923  120
2) Ace                                                 261  1716   73
3) Berkley/Putnam                                      232  1503   75

BEST RELATED NON-FICTION BOOK
1) THE SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA,                   331  2304  206
      Peter Nicholls ed. (Doubleday)
2) IN MEMORY YET GREEN, Isaac Asimov (Doubleday)       184  1246   80
3) A READER'S GUIDE TO SCIENCE FICTION,                 74   471   15 
      Baird Searles et al. (Avon)

Rating system: Carr Count, 8 for 1st place, 7 for 2nd place, etc.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1980 1724-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: 1950s female protagonists

What's wrong with Dr. Susan Calvin?  Wasn't she in the late 50's?  I
never felt that she was any more of a caricature than any of Dr. A's
other protagonists.
		Mike

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 at 1858-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ OVERLOOK DR. SUSAN CALVIN?  NEVER! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dr. Susan Calvin is indeed often cited as an archtypical female main
character, yet she is not really \the/ protagonist in all the stories
in any of the robot books.  Often she just serves an expository
function rather than being involved in the plot, e.g., "Satisfaction
Guaranteed".  For a true fempro in a collection, cf.  Helva in
McCaffrey's THE SHIP WHO SANG, and the difference in roles is readily
evident.  Dr. Calvin was unusually "strong" for a female character of
the 40's & 50's, much more so than the early fempros, but she wasn't
one of them.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 08/31/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It gives
away the ending of Asimov's positronic robot story "That Thou Art
Mindful of Him". People who have not read this story may not wish to
read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1980 1856-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Positronic Robots.

Roger, I believe that you have missed one robot story, unless the
one I am thinking of is "That Thou Art Mindful of Him".  There is a
positronic robot story where US Robots asks one of their experimental
robots to come up with a way to make robots more accepted on Earth.
This robot the 9th (I think) refinement in the series and its prede-
cessor the 8th refinement come up with a way to do this. They suggest
the replacement of various extinct or dying portions of the eco-system
with robots, ie robot bees, flowers, birds, etc.  The end expected
result is that having become accustomed to these lower orders of
robots humans will also accept that higher order robots, the ones
US Robots want to produce. Only one glitch in this scheme, the two
experimental robots have reached the conclusion that they owe repect
only to each other.  They find that only they measure up to the
definition of what a human being is.
    By the way, I agree with Roger's remark about "The Bicentennial
Man".  It may well be the best piece of fiction writing that Dr. A.
has ever done.

[ The story you describe is "That Thou Art Mindful of Him".  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

End of HUMAN-NETS Digest
************************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 SEP 1980 0531-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #63
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 1 Sept 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 63

   Today's Topics:     Sorting F/SF, SF Books - Budrys Reviews,
                   SF Movies - Sneak Preview Review of Flash Gordon
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1980 at 1922-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "LANDMARK" CRITERIA AND FEMPRO'S ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

McLure's eligibility criteria for his Landmark project were of
particular interest.  Tho his object in assembling such a list
differs from mine in making a study-collection of genre-SF-books-
with-female-protagonists ("fempros" refer to either the books or
their heroines), the 2 projects have similar needs for selection
criteria, and, surprisingly similar criteria.

I, too, stick to just books, including single-author collections.
While his collections' stories do not need to be inter-related,
mine do.  (What have actually turned up are covert collections
masquerading as novels, e.g., the Telzey tales in THE UNIVERSE
AGAINST HER; or "fixups" with some narrative "glue" in them,
e.g., McCaffrey's THE SHIP WHO SANG.)

McLure's restrictions on juveniles, too, is similar. Since certain
juveniles ARE widely read by adults, I hit on marketing practice
as a useful criterion. Something published \only/ by Atheneum, or
Scholastic, for instance, tends not to be widely known beyond a
juvenile readership.  But if such a book gets a mass market pb
edition (e.g., H.M. Hoover's RAINS OF ERIDAN), its accessibility
qualifies it.  Of course, there's always a troublesome borderline
situation -- in my case, the Dell Laurel Leaf's. Originally school-
related, they are now found at least in major chain-bookstores and
in SF ones.  And perhaps even more widely.  ~sigh~

The wording of his fantasy restriction is what caught my attention
most strongly.  I, too, have a restriction: I want to exclude it,
which means I have to have a workable definition of the distinction.
Believe me -- until you face 150 sf&f books and tried to sort the SF
from the F in a reasonable, reliable, and consistent way, you don't
truly perceive the inadequacy of seemingly acceptable definitions!

Having some background in folklore, I took as the decisive factor
the functional operation of element(s) of any \traditional/ mode
of the supernatural. As there's no real distinction between "magic"
and a lot of "psi" (e.g., the preternatural in the Deryni vs. the
Darkover universes), the author's evident stance sometimes has to
serve to determine which was intended.  But, McLure's reference to
"a novel which includes magic and demons but retains the nature and
assumptions of an SF work" leaves me wondering -- just what does he
consider THAT NATURE and THOSE ASSUMPTIONS to be?!!!!

I am not challenging, I am curious.  If he (or other brave SF-Lers)
can express what those characteristics are, that may enable me to
better define my own criteria.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1980 0237-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>,
      Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Budrys Reviews

By Algis Budrys        (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

     Robert Heinlein's agent had hoped to get $1 million for his
latest novel, "The Number of the Beast." What he had to settle for
was half that, and not from his accustomed publisher nor from any of
the houses with heavy SF publishing programs.  The U.S. book rights
went to Fawcett Columbine, and the resulting trade paperback is $6.95
per copy. Is it worth it? Very likely not.
     It's full of science fiction community in-jokes.  Its payoff
depends heavily on your being able to recognize not only the bylines,
but also the principal characters and personalities of a fair number
of other science fiction writers.  No casual reader or newcomer to
sci-fi can possibly hope to understand what's going on; taken simply
as a narrative reading experience, it's at best inconclusive and
frustrating.
     It begins in Heinlein's classic action mode of the 1940s and
early '50s.  It has the expectable utterly competent hero in deadly
peril as the result of an attack on the world's entire social system.
The explicit promise to the reader is that the hero will, as he always
has, solve his personal problem by saving the world.
     But the hero has access to a machine that lets him shift out of
this reality into any other reality-including fictional realities. So
he slips into the Land of Oz, into E. E. Smith's classic "Galactic
Patrol" sci-fi series, and then into Heinlein's own "Lazarus Long"
series. The deadly peril is swiftly forgotten. A major purpose of this
shifting seems to be to allow everyone to make love to everyone else.
. . sometimes expanding these possibilities by having the characters
undergo sex changes.
     This latter feature is very much in keeping with the "new"
Heinlein who appeared in the late 1950s, when the back half of
"Stranger in a Strange Land" suddenly became like nothing so much
as a talky Jack Woodford novel. This new Heinlein is sometimes on,
sometimes off, setting up extended sociophilosophical dialogues
against rudimentary action backgrounds.  Never has he been as
excessively verbal as he is in Number, or as prone to killing a
point after it's been made.
     Finally, Heinlein simply throws a party; a vast, rip-roaring
fantasy assemblage to which he "invites" those writers for whom he
has developed a personal affinity as a member of the West Coast
science fiction community. At that party, we are told incidentally
that the hero and the world were never in any sort of peril at all.
It was all a joke on the reader.
     Well, you pays your money and you gets your laughs, all the
way from the bank.

     -o-

     John Varley's "Wizard" (Berkley-Putnam, $11.95) is a sequel to
last year's excellent "Titan," and obviously the middle book in a
trilogy.  Many of the leading characters return.  The most engaging is
Gaea, the nearly omnipotent alien intelligence who evolved into a vast
biomechanical space station in orbit around Saturn. Gaea contains vast
landscapes and scores of wonderfully imagined alien races.  She's also
getting a little frumpy, old and feisty.
     Gaby Plauget and Scirocco Jones, two female astronauts from
Earth, continue as leading human characters.  Rocky Jones is now
the wizard supervising fertility distribution in the complex
centaur culture.
     Two new characters -- a young man from Earth, and a young woman
from a fanatically anti-male space colony -- also figure prominently.
Both are incurably ill.  Only Gaea can pass the necessary miracle.
Because she demands they first qualify by "doing something heroic,"
they join Rocky and Gaby on a particularly dangerous odyssey through
Gaea's interior.  Varley fans will know that things will be (a)
strikingly ingenious and (b) not necessarily what they might seem.
     Not as fully satisfactory as "Titan," this is nevertheless a
very nice development of the basic situation, and a promising bridge
to the concluding book.

    -o-

     Librarians take note: At $200 retail, the five-volume "Survey
of Science Fiction Literature" is a bargain from Salem Press of
Englewood Cliffs, N.J. Its 513 essays, with supporting data, cover
the work of 230 SF authors since 1818. In addition to English-language
works, novels and story collections from 18 other nations are covered.
A total education in SF; no other reference set can even approach it.

    -o-

    "The Berkley Showcase," Vol. II ($1.95), is Berkley Books'
paperback "magazine," offering short, new work by Berkley novelists
and other notable writers. In this second "issue," old reliables R.
A. Lafferty, Edward Bryant and Thomas M. Disch are joined by several
promising newcomers, and there is an interview with Barry Longyear,
this season's hot new name.

    -o-

     Another recommended paperback is "What If?," Vol. I (Pocket
Books, $2.95), edited by Richard A. Lupoff. These are stories which
in his knowledgeable judgment should have won the Hugo Award for
excellence in their respective years of first publication, but somehow
didn't.  They ARE very good stories.  This volume covers 1952 through
1958, and includes Lupoff essays on the history of the Hugo and his
reasoning on what went "wrong." Doesn't include any of MY nominated
losers, mind you, but what the hell.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/01/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
review a sneak preview of DeLaurentiis' FLASH GORDON and give away
some aspects of the plot.  Some people may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

JBarre@MIT-AI 08/17/80 22:34:46 Re: "Flash Gordon" movie.

     ("Flash Gordon" was sneaked over the weekend in Dallas)

     Dino De Laurentiis has jumped on the science fiction bandwagon
and produced "Flash Gordon," a cosmic rip-off of the old movie
serials.

     Sam J. Jones plays Flash, an all too cute quarterback for
the New York Jets (sounds familiar) who manages to bulldoze his way
through saving the universe. Melody Anderson plays Dale Arden, Gordo's
beautiful companion.  The fabulously photogenic couple meet during a
"natural" disaster orchestrated by Ming, Emperor of Mongo (Max von
Sydow).  Their plane just happens to crash into the laboratory of
Dr. Hans Zarkov, an ex-NASA scientist who is convinced that the earth
is under attack.  Zarkov tricks the pair into his rocket ship, which
just happens to be standing in the middle of his laboratory, and they
blast off, only to be captured by the evil emperor.

    The rest of the plot is cliche'd -- Ming wants to marry Dale,
Ming's daughter is after Flash's body, Flash fights his way out of
almost every situation, Ming's subjects decide to revolt, and of
course, the good guys win out in the end. The only character that was
not a stereotype was Dale.  Instead of cowering in the corner when a
fight would break out, she would go in and throw punches with the best
of them.  She was also a pretty good shot, and able to get herself out
of almost every hairy situation.  Flash on the other hand, had to be
rescued a couple of times.

     The script was written by Lorenzo Semple, Jr., who wrote a lot of
the "Batman" episodes.  Upon viewing this film, it seems that Semple
wrote a campy script, but after the producer and director got through
with it, the whole thing became just plain corny.

     As far as special effects go, the ones in this movie must have
been made on a shoestring budget. You can see matte lines everywhere
(most of the mattes look like bad chroma keys), and most of the
rockets, cities, planets, etc. did not look realistic at all.  My
companion tells me that a lot of the characters, sets, etc. were
stolen from "Barbarella," a De Laurentiis flick starring Jane Fonda
in a role she would rather forget.  The only redeeming quality in
this department was the sound.  Sound exploded from all directions
during the battle scenes.  Dialogue would come out from a speaker
corresponding with where that person was standing on the screen.
Too bad that they could not have done that well with the visuals.

     The sets and costumes retained a lot of the period flavor of the
original serials.  Ming's palace was full of art deco, and the rocket
ship had very few controls and no one wore space suits.

     The film would not have been so BAD if the bad were intentional,
like "Batman," or "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes," but De Laurentiis
seems to be taking himself all too seriously. In the words of Leonard
Pinth-Garnell: Truly bad.

("Flash Gordon" opens this Christmas at some unfortunate theatre
  near you)

--julie barrett

------------------------------

JBARRE@MIT-AI 08/20/80 01:45:27 Re: Addendum to "Flash Gordon" review

     The Dallas Morning News reported that a lot of MCA and Universal
bigwigs were at the Dallas screening, including De Laurentiis.  They
also report that the film's budget is $35 million, and that the
effects (six hundred -- count 'em!) are supposed to be much better
by Christmas.

--julie barrett

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 SEP 1980 0558-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #64
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Tuesday, 2 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 64

       Today's Topics: What Happens at a Con - WORLDcon Wrapup
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1980 0154-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Worldcon blurb

By David Michael Ettlin  (c)1980 The Baltimore Sun (Field News Sevice)

    BOSTON The science fiction boom fueled by the likes of "Star Wars"
movies and a growing visibility on the book shelf lured more than
5,500 persons - and an occasional bug-eyed monster - here this Labor
Day weekend.
    The largest SF convention ever held on this planet, it was a
chance to meet and talk with the writers and editors, to watch
dozens of movies ranging from the very good to the very bad and
go broke buying books, magazines and original works of art.
    "I always knew there was a world science fiction convention, but
I didn't know anybody could go," said Sharon Foster, a 29-year-old
computer programer from Danbury, Conn., and a veteran of one smaller,
regional gathering several months ago.
    Ms. Foster said she fell into the lure of science fiction while
growing up in Texas and discovering the literary realm of fairy tales,
a surprisingly common way to become a fan.
    Writer and critic Damon Knight also started with fairy tales,
growing up in a small Oregon town with "no one who would talk to me"
but a library full of worlds awaiting discovery.
    Honored here (along with writer-wife Kate Wilhelm) as guest of
honor, Knight recalled first the fairy tales and then the early
science fiction of the 1930s in his keynote talk.
    "The idea of another fascinating world somewhere . . . this
excited my imagination," said Knight, who has written eight novels
and some 81 short stories but is better known as editor, critic,
teacher and founder of the Milford Science Fiction Writers
Conference.
    Though he has made a career of science fiction, Knight could
provide only his personal definition of the genre: "This is my
theory: Anything I like is science fiction."
    Ms. Wilhelm, who met her husband at Milford, does not like to
think of herself as a science fiction writer, though the fans and
writers have accorded her their highest honors. She titled her talk
"The Uncertain Edge of Reality."
    "This is my subject matter when I write," she said. "I am asking,
what actually do we mean by reality, and are we stuck with the one we
have."
    The reality that humankind seems to accept - the one reflected in
newspaper headlines of war and ecological ruin - disturbs Ms. Wilhelm.
"I maintain that we deserve better," she said. "We have the wisdom of
hindsight, and the magic of foresight. We know, if we will only admit
it, that we are capable of truly magnificent things on the face of the
earth."
     Spider and Jeanne Robinson, coauthors of the award-winning novel
"Stardance," have their own magnificent dream - one which inspired
their story - of modern dance performed in zero gravity.
    Their story seems fanciful at first look: a troupe of dancers in
space who use their art to save the world from alien invaders. But
there was a message, Mrs. Robinson said, that "the earth is womb."
    With a dream of a real zero-G dance, the Robinsons are planning to
apply for a slot on the space shuttle and envision how a performance
with a backdrop of "the endless beauty of space" would inspire
mankind's birth from the womb.
    "We've got to get people off this mud ball before it's too late,"
Robinson said. He allowed that their application for the space shuttle
might not be accepted, but viewed it as "great publicity" for their
philosophical thoughts.
    As for their novel, he added, "It's selling like God's hot cakes."
    Mrs. Robinson, a professional in Halifax, Nova Scotia, performed
a specially choreographed multi-media work at the convention. Titled
"Higher Ground," it was intended to "reflect the course of the natural
evolutionary trend which will take man into space."
    The science fiction fans provided some of their own entertainment
at a masquerade competition, dressing as favorite characters ranging
from Luke Skywalker to Mickey and Minnie Mouse, or drawing on the
imagination to create their own alien creatures and, naturally, bug
eyed monsters.
    Other convention highlights included a film program ranging from
the likes of "Star Wars" to the 1950s version of "Invasion of the Body
Snatchers." And for those who survived the parties held most of each
night, there were a few films just perfect for hangovers - "The Blob"
and "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes."
    Several motion picture studios gave previews and slide
presentations on forthcoming projects, including a mammoth-budget epic
called "Clash of the Titans" based on myths of the Greek gods and due
for release by MGM next summer.
    Gary Kurtz, producer of the first two "Star Wars" pictures, showed
a film on how the box office record motion pictures were made.
    Saying he believed movies like "Star Wars" are likely to have an
influence on "the kids growing up now," he added: "It's nice to think
that the men who will walk on the moon were influenced by wookies."
    The climax of the convention is the awarding of science fictions's
achievement awards for best stories, writers, artists and dramatic
presentations. The award is called the "Hugo," in memory of Hugo
Gernsback, founder of the first science fiction magazine.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1980 2040-EDT
From: Bruce Israel <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>,
      Richard R. Brodie <Brodie at PARC-MAXC>
Subject: Noreascon II Special Report

                            *** FLASH ***

Live from WorldCon central, your intrepid reporters are speaking to
you now from Boston's historic John B. Hynes Civic Auditorium, named
for the famed mayor of Boston, father of Channel 5 anchorman Jack
Hynes, and grandfather of Harvard hockey star John Hynes III.

WorldCons have always been newsworthy events, and this one is no
exception.  First, the most important event of any WorldCon: the
parties.  The SF-Lovers party was a huge success, with such notables
as Robert Forward, Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven, Roger Duffey, the
nameless JPM, and these noted reporters meeting for the first time
face to face (with certain exceptions, of course).  Bob Forward
brought his terminal, which was promptly labeled "The TTY of Geoffrey
S. Goodfellow," and used to print the past three issues of the world's
largest APA (We @;i[are];\i@ addicted, aren't we?).

Several bathtubs of drinks later, and amid untold ritualistic and
orgiastic goings-on far too unmentionable for a family APA, the party
recessed until the next con.  Thanks go to Sheila Oranch and Paul
Schauble for supplying the host site, to Jim McGrath for organizing
the party, and to all those who donated edibles and bathtubables.

On a less serious note, the awarding of the Hugos took place Sunday
evening.  Robert Silverberg hosted the affair, which lauded Arthur C.
Clarke's THE FOUNTAINS OF PARIDISE as best novel. Other winners were:

best novella: "Enemy Mine," by Barry B. Longyear
best novelette: "Sandkings," by George R. R. Martin
best short story: "The Way Of Cross and Dragon,"
                  by George R. R. Martin
best non-fiction: THE SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA,
                  edited by Peter Nicholls
best dramatic presentation: ALIEN
best professional artist: Michael Whelan
best professional editor: George Scithers
best fanzine: LOCUS, edited by Charles Brown (LOCUS's fifth Hugo)
best fan writer: Bob Shaw
best fan artist: Alexis Gilliand

Other awards:

John Campbell Award: Barry B. Longyear
Gandalf Grandmaster of Fantasy: Ray Bradbury
First Fandom Award: George O. Smith
Pat Terry Award (for humor in SF): Douglas Adams

When presenting the Hugo for best novel, Issac Asimov added a touch of
humor to the ceremony. When ascending to the stage, he kissed the two
beautiful women adorning the stage stairs on the mouth, and then to
the delight of the audience did the same to Robert Silverberg.

The 1982 WorldCon will be held in Chicago.

Total attendance exceeded 5700, making this by far the largest
WorldCon in history.

Craig Miller gave a slide presentation on SUPERMAN II.  We learned
that the movie will come out in some of Europe and Australia in
December 1980, in England at Easter 1981, and in the Orient in time
for Chinese New Year.  We will not see in in the good old USA until
June 1981, when the producers feel they can make the most money from
poor children and senior citizens on a fixed income.

Miller said the movie would concern

SPOILER WARNING!!! SPOILER WARNING!!!  THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH GIVES
AWAY SOME PLOT DETAILS OF SUPERMAN II.  THOSE WHO HAVE NOT YET SEEN
THE MOVIE, EXCEPT EMPLOYEES OF PARAMOUNT PICTURES, THEIR SPOUSES AND
IMMEDIATE FAMILY, MAY NOT WISH TO READ THIS PARAGRAPH

the menace of villains who escape from the Phantom Zone after being
put there by Marlon Brando. As punishment for his incompetence in
this matter, he will not appear in this or subsequent SUPERMAN films.
The audience greeted this news with much applause.  All other major
characters, including Gene Hackman, will appear in SUPERMAN II.
Christopher Reeve has already signed a contract for SUPERMAN III.
Miller implied that Clark Kent and Lois Lane have some form of
intimacy in the film.  He also responded, in answer to a question,
that the producers have in fact read Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of
Kleenex."  However, he did not explain how the producers intended to
overcome the problems posed in that story.  He also assured us that
Supie does not reverse time once again, and that the Phantom Zone
villains are not released by a nuclear explosion, but in fact by an
exploding elevator. Lois Lane makes numerous attempts to discover if
Clark has in fact got Kryptonian blood, and really throws herself into
this endeavor. One sharp fifteen-year-old asked why Superman did not
fly back in time and shake hands with Clark Kent in front of Lois,
proving once and for all that they are two different people. Miller
responded "Just because the guy has super powers doesn't mean he's
bright." Miller said that the movie would once again deviate from the
comic mythos with the approval of DC Comics.  He declined to specify
the manner of deviation, but said that it concerned the climax of the
film.  He revealed that Darth Vader was neither Superman's father nor
a clone of Jor-El.

END OF SPOILER

Other tidbits:
Marvin Minsky gave an interesting talk on the direction of AI research
and on AI in SF.  Spider Robinson will release another collection of
Callahan stories entitled TIME TRAVELERS, STRICTLY CASH.  It will
contain four Callahan stories and four others.  Spike McPhee's table
was overflowing with DRAGON'S EGGS at the start of the convention,
though presumably not at the finish. Marion Zimmer Bradley will soon
release a new Darkover book entitled SHARRA'S UPRISING.  Brodie at
PARC-MAXC, et al, tied for fifth place in the first Claude Degler
Memorial Scavenger Hunt with 83 points to the winners' 115, after
failing to persuade any of C.J. Cherryh, Harlan Ellison, or three
other pros to accompany them to the second floor. Jeanne Robinson's
multi-media dance presentation, HIGHER GROUND, was a smashing success,
and Spider announced the next day that rumbles were heard from CBS.
CLASH OF THE TITANS will be released June 19, 1981, and looks like a
serious effort with many big-name stars and expensive special effects.
The masquerade was won by a pair of people in Aztec costumes; other
costumes included Disco Klingons, Jedi Stooges, a Dr. Who wearing
only a scarf, and a Luke and Yoda pair which had Luke doing standing
forward and back flips and handstands.

In all, the convention ran quite smoothly with the exception of the
hotel elevators. Next year's glorious gathering is Denvention II, to
be held in Denver.

	Until then,

	Richard Brodie
	Bruce Israel

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/02/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It reports
on an interview with Gary Kurtz, the director of TESB.  It discusses
The Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Jedi. People who have not
seen TESB may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1980 2040-EDT
From: Richard R. Brodie <Brodie at PARC-MAXC>,
      Bruce Israel <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>
Subject: SF-LOVERS interviews Gary Kurtz

Gary Kurtz, director of The Empire Strikes Back, granted an exclusive
interview to a screaming crowd of 600 fans.  Your intrepid reporters,
scribbling notes in the front row, learned the following important
tidbits about the Star Wars saga:

"Revenge of the Jedi," the sixth chapter in the series, will appear
in theaters in the spring of 1983. Every major character will return.

Kurtz gave no help in the area of Luke's paternity, answering the
obvious question with a resounding "What do you think?" He seemed
to resolve the X-wing question by answering Bruce's complicated
reconstruction of our theories on the subject with "That's an
interesting idea."  He added that Luke was meant to fail in his
attempt, and that Yoda lifted the X-wing out of the swamp to give
Luke the option of leaving or staying.

Kurtz said we will learn more of Boba Fett's history, but will
probably not see him unmasked, since "he is a pretty mysterious
fellow."  Kurtz does not know who shot J.R.

Kurtz had an interesting reaction to the question asking why Obi-Wan
said that Darth killed Luke's father, and if they could possibly be
clones.  When repeating the question, he repeated the first portion,
but carefully avoided saying anything about clones.  His answer was
that we would learn more in the future.

The major part we gleaned from Kurtz's talk was in regard to Yoda's
mention of "another."  Flatly, Kurtz stated that "the other" is
someone we have NOT YET MET.  Kurtz made a mysterious statement: he
said "We'll learn who 'the other' is in the future, but we won't see
him for a while."  Experts disagree on the interpretation of this
statement.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 SEP 1980 0555-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #65
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 3 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 65

 Today's Topics: What happens at a Con, Review Library, Sorting F/SF,
                 SF Books - Childe Cycle & Card's Songhouse & Donovan
                  & Bug Wars & TNotB Quote & Linguistics & One Tree,
                      Space Information, Spoiler Warnings, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1980 11:29 PDT
From: Roger Duffey <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: SF-LOVERS at Noreascon II

The names of the local arrangements volunteers for the party were
accidentally left out of yesterday's message. Special thanks also
go to John Delaney <Delaney at LL>, Susan Rajunas <SRajunas at BBNC>,
and Margaret Minsky <Marg at AI> for their help with the party.


------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1980 11:29 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC

Hear, hear! for Andrew Knutsen's idea of a way (or any way) to
organize reviews from the Digests in an easily retrievable form.

Karen

------------------------------

Date:  2 Sep 1980 2335-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dorsai, fantasy/sf, Songhouse

Dorsai books (or the Childe cycle).

I stand by my naming of books. I too was confused by the Ace ad. Since
the advertisement confused me I took my courage in hand and asked Mr.
Dickson about the series and the order of books (I was at Noreascon
which is why I was able to ask him).  Dickson essentially said that
Ace didn't know what it was talking about in the ad.  The order he
gave is the same order I mentioned.  Dickson said that "Spirit of
Dorsai" and "Lost Dorsai" were illuminations of but not part of the
main cycle, he indicated that Ace tended to get confused about this.
He also indicated that there is one more illumination coming, a short
story about Ian Greame. He claims that he has to avoid the temptation
to do the illuminations and get to work on the rest of the books.  I
hope that we are all straightened out on the order of the Childe cycle
now. ("Final Encyclopedia" is due out relatively soon I gather).

Next topic, Fantasy/SF.  The following books can be classified as
fantasy due to their use of magic but due to the treatment they
deserve a classification as SF, in my opinion:

  1) Conjure Wife -- Fritz Leiber
  2) Magicians -- James Gunn
  3) Incomplete Enchanter -- L. Sprague DeCamp and Fletcher Pratt 
     (did Pratt work on these? I can't remember offhand)

Yet another topic: If you can find copies of the Orson Scott Card
stories "Songhouse" and "Songbird" read them.  If you like the same
kind of stories I do you'll love these.  If not they are still good
stories.  They were in Analog a while back.

        Steve Z.

P.S. I thought the Robinsons' "Higher Ground" was awful. Mrs. Robinson
     didn't impress me as a dancer.  Her movements seemed, somehow, to
     be unsmooth.  I also kept seeing her brace herself against her
     clear plastic prop and against the floor. Maybe I'm just unappre-
     ciative of ballet, I do tend to bore easily.  My dislike may also
     have been helped on by the distracting and annoying slide show
     behind her and also by the fact that I had to stand, with an
     aching back, for the part of "Higher Ground" I stayed for.

        sjz

[ Pratt did indeed co-author THE INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER with DeCamp.
  There were two sequels to THE INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER: THE CASTLE
  OF IRON and THE WALL OF SERPENTS. Also note that "The Incomplete
  Enchanter" and "The Castle of Iron" were recently reprinted in
  the book THE COMPLETE ENCHANTER, a misnomer since publisher
  problems prevented including THE WALL OF SERPENTS.  --  RDD  ]

------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1980 0042-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Donovan's Brain

According to my copy of Donovan's Brain, it was written by one Curt
Siodmak in 1942.  (It is, by the way, the source of the nonsense
jingle I advertised a free dinner for the source of a couple of
years back on some ITS bboard, with no takers. The jingle was used
by Cory (the doctor)'s assistant as a "tenser, said the tensor"
style brain-baffle against Donovan.)

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1980 1600-EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Rating

Asprin's "The Bug Wars" is a definite turkey.  Not at all the quality
of his other work, and just plain bad writing, no plot to speak of,
and the key blurb on the cover around which the story would appear
to center is a side incident taking up only a couple paragraphs, and
never developed; without development, it is a trick of the same class
as the two people finding themselves on a new planet, and being
informed that their names are (or phonetic equivalents of) "Adam"
and "Eve".  Avoid this one.

------------------------------

Date: 08/27/80 1239-EDT
From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject:  Heinlein Biblical reference

     On a lighter note, I just ran across a Biblical quote which
obviously is the source on which Heinlein drew for the title of
his latest ouevre. I thought I'd share it with everyone who reads
SF-LOVERS.  I have not read that work yet; perhaps someone who has
can comment whether the quote has any relevance to the story.

     "This calls for wisdom: Let him who has understanding reckon
the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is
six hundred and sixty-six."

     It appeared in a short Boston Globe article about a woman who
insisted on changing her license plates because the plate number
666 signified that she had pledged herself to the Devil.

                                  Enjoy,
                                       KGH

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 0544-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-1
Subject: Info for various references

Re the inquiry about books heavily involved with linguistics:

I have received a second-hand referral to JUNIPER TIME, by Kate
Wilhelm, as getting heavily into language concepts.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1980 1636-EDT
From: VAF at MIT-MC (Vincent A. Fuller III)
Subject: Donaldson - new book?

 All:

Does anybody know when Donaldson's next book (The One Tree) will be
coming out? I recently finished The Wounded Land, and am looking
forward to the sequel.

 Vince

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1980 1140-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Space information

From the letters section of the July OMNI, some information people
may be interested in. ie the names and addresses of some Washington
people with a great deal of influence over NASA's budget.  If you
are interested in space (either pro or con), they would be both good
sources of information (just write to them requesting information on
a particular topic - like the text of the Moon Treaty - and they will
be happy to comply) and people to bitch to if you disagree with
current policy and/or have something new to add.

   Advisor to the President on Space Affairs
   Benjamin Hubberman
   Executive Office Building
   Washington, DC 20500

   Director of Space Science and Applications; House Subcommittee
   Don Fuqua
   Room 226, Rayburn Office Building
   Washington, DC 20515

   Director of Science, Technology, and Space; Senate Subcommittee
   Adlai E. Stevenson, U.S. Senate
   Washington, DC 20510

You can also get factual information from non-government sources.
Probably the best organized group to go to is the L-5 Society. Like
all such groups, they are hard put for funds and time, so you might
have to wait awhile.  By joining the L-5 itself you can get their
newsletter, a monthly publication that is full of interesting
articles. You can also just subscribe to the newsletter. For
more information write to:

        The L-5 Society
        1060 E. Elm
        Tucson, Arizonia 85719

Jim

------------------------------

Date:  1 September 1980 2322-EDT (Monday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Spoiler warnings

Keep them in; they are a courtesy I appreciate. I have not read
some of the newest SF which is discussed, and, believe it or not,
I have not yet seen TESB.  Something to do with the intersection
of space-time events, such as spare time, adjacency to a theatre,
willingness to put up with disgusting theatre audiences (does
anyone watch a movie without talking?), etc. The last time I made
the attempt, in Los Angeles, the line at the theatre was 6 blocks
long. By the time I found the end of it, I was back at the parking
lot, so I left.
                                joe

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/03/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. People who have not
seen these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1980 11:29 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Luke: friends vs. world

I think it was Forester (sp?) who said, in more or less these words:
"If I have to choose between my friends and my country, I hope I
would have the guts to choose my friends."

Karen

------------------------------

Date:  19 August 1980 01:57 edt
From:  SALawrence at MIT-Multics (STEVE at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Star Wars, TESB, & Nuclear Weapons

With respect to most minor details of these films, I'm as willing
as anyone else to meditate on possible rationalizations behind the
structure of the film universe.  However, with respect to nuclear
weapons I find it very hard to ignore the most serious of the "real"
reasons I'd expect them to be avoided: these films are supposed to
be, in some sense, escapism.  The characters in the films spend a
lot of time throwing very heavy weaponry at each other; if nukes
were used at all, they'd have to be used a LOT, and the question
of what to do about the Empire coming in and nuking heck out of
whatever rebel base we're seeing would always need to be
considered.

I dunno about any of the rest of you, but I would think twice about
going to see a "fun" film which spent something like 30% of its time
considering defenses against nuclear bombs. Exploding Leia's world by
magic (which is essentially what was done) was neat; had they thrown
a giant nuke at it, or bombed the surface into glass, it would just
have been sickening. It would seem MUCH too real.

Rather than look for reasons for the lack of nukes in the
time/location placement of the universe, I'd be inclined to go at it
the other way around: I would not be at all surprised if one of the
big problems Lucas faced was how he could set things up so that he
could make a science fiction war film without ever mentioning nuclear
weapons, and that this probably had a LOT to do with setting it in the
past rather than the future. Once he'd made it clear, in the script at
the start of SW, that the technology in the film had nothing to do
with ours, he could sit back and relax and ignore nuclear weapons for
the rest of the series.

I really doubt the film could possibly have been so successful had
they thrown giant H-bombs at each other rather than just shining red
flashlights here and there.

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 08/27/80 14:36:01 Re:  fuzzy last wishes

If Leia and Chewie are the parents of the Yoda's last hope, does
that make the kid a charm born of hairy union?

                just musing,
                Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 SEP 1980 0603-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #66
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 4 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:       SF Books - TNotB Quote & Yet Another TNotB
                & Barbie Murders & Clement's Starlight, Sorting F/SF,
                TESB - Glorifies War? & Effects, Known Space Anomalies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1980 1343-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Number of the Beast

Just to get the record straight: the number of the beast is from
Revelation 13:18:

"Here is wisdom.  Let him that hath understanding count the number
 of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six
 hundred threescore and six."

Like most of Revelation, this verse is in code.  Most biblical
scholars agree that it refers to Nero (AD 37 - 68), the first
Roman emperor to persecute Christians.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1980 (Wednesday) 1020-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: 666 in fact and fiction

For another treatement of "the number of the beast" see a \short/
story titled, appropriately, "The Number of the Beast".  It appears
in a collection of works by (?) Gordon R. Dickson titled (something
like) "The Mind Spider and other stories". It's essentially a piece
of detective fiction.

-- Dave

------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1980 2027-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Varley's THE BARBIE MURDERS

Varley's latest collection consists of nine stories, three of which
are fairly routine (by Varley standards), and the other six of which
range from good to smashing. The title story, 'The Barbie Murders',
is a detective story about trying to find the proverbial needle in
the haystack and is quite good. I felt that 'Equinoctial' (about
symb/human relationships), 'Beatnik Bayou' (another one of his Luna
stories), and 'Good-bye, Robinson Crusoe' (another Luna story, with
a different edge) were the best and completely up to par with the
stories of his earlier collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION.
However, the overall average of the other stories is not as high.

For anyone who hasn't read any of Varley's short stories, grab one
or both of these books. His characterizations are the best I've come
across.

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1980 (Wednesday) 1946-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: Various and Sundry things

1) Was looking/buying books this week.  I highly recommend Varley's
   new anthology "THE BARBIE MURDERS", which in general continues
   his "Invaders" universe.  As a matter of fact, I am so used to
   the universe that when I hit a story which is not part of it,
   like "Manikins" I really take a while to sort things out. In the
   anthology are stories on Cathay and Parameter/Solstice from "The
   Ophiuchi Hotline", and various other works.

2) I also note that there is a sequel to Hal Clement's "MISSION OF
   GRAVITY" called "STARLIGHT" which evidently has been out since
   '71, but which I just noticed.  I enjoyed "MISSION", though I
   found "DRAGON'S EGG" a much more interesting discussion of much
   the same problems.  A major difference between the two is that
   Clement assumes the Mesklinites run on real-time (e.g.  "human"
   time), and the cheela run on mega-human time (1 million times
   faster).  It Is interesting that Clement did think of this, as
   witnessed by his character remarking "We knew things would fall
   faster here, but we just assumed you (Mesklinites) would
   therefore have faster reaction times."

                   0  Dave

------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1980 at 0114-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE SF vs. F MUDDLE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Steve Z. says that certain items of speculative fiction "can be
classified as fantasy due to their use of magic but due to the
treatment they deserve a classification as SF".

Lists of `mixed SF&F' I've got, already! As with McLure's unspecified
"nature and assumptions of SF" -- what IS that \treatment/ which can
override the use of magic?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1980 at 0025-CDT
From: Dewey Henize (via HJJH at UTEXAS)
Subject: TESB/war glorification controversies

Some general observations on the TESB/war glorification controversies.
I don't, so far at least, find myself in either of the current camps
as far as the all or nothing, complete influence vs "just a movie"
positions.  Therefore, the following food for thought (fuel for
argument?).

SW and TESB are fantasy entertainment, and were definitely planned
that way.  I personally don't think they are all that great, but
enjoyed them when I saw them (once each was enough for me - catholic
tastes that I am cursed with).  There's much more involved here than
just the films themselves, however.

I still remember clearly the upheavals in our "culture" when four
rather uncouth foreign musicians suddenly took over the consciousness
of the young American public. Their music wasn't really profound, but
the time was right for them to be chosen as leaders and spokesmen,
whether they had anything to say or not.  You don't have to be a
sociologist to know that everything changed rather rapidly for a
while - and I won't argue whether it was for good or bad (that's
another two week discussion in itself).

This I would call a catalytic effect - dissatisfaction suddenly became
open and adamant, "rebellion against authority" was something done by
more than hoods and punks, etc.

SW/TESB seems to catalyze the public to the same degree.  This seems
more than a fad, more like a release of tensions that we have all seen
building for the last several years.  I don't know how it's all going
to come out, and I certainly don't believe anyone else does either,
but the effects on our perceptions will very probably linger for a
long while.

More to the point of this rambling disertation, while SW/TESB were
designed to simply entertain (and make money), I believe the phenomena
has moved beyond that now.  I ALSO BELIEVE THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD BE RECOGNISED IN THE NEXT FEW EPISODES. No one
knew what would happen when the first two came out.  Now, however,
there is a prepared audience waiting, who will be bringing children
also.  Lucas can't be just a filmmaker for the next few episodes -
whether he likes it or not he WILL have a lot of influence.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone too severely, just my own naive
observations.

Dewey Henize 

------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1980 0109-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Matte lines in TESB

In reply to Lauren's comments about the noticable matte lines in TESB,
yes but give the LucasFilms folks some credit, they tried to do the
most demanding sort of a matte in the Hoth battle sequence.

A lucky fact for space-fiction film buffs is that it is much easier
to matte onto a black background (eg space) then onto a "positive"
background (eg snow). Basically this is because it is easy to make
the matte line go dark, since the forground image (spaceship) is
shot against a black or blue "limbo" which is processed to black.

The other problem which contributes is the poor handling of "motion
blur" on the leading and trailing edge of moving objects.

Optical printing as the basis of special effects is at best a hack,
and is on the way out as soon as the better technology is perfected.
More than one group is currently working on better more modern (read
computer based image processing) techniques for this applications.
Hint: one of them is NOT LucasFilms.

PS Yes, the stop-motion animation was a little lame, this looks like
   a job for (da da dah) Computer Animation!

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/04/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss apparent anomalies within Niven's Known Space series. Spoilers
for several of the stories and novels within this series are involved.
People who are not familiar with the series may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date:  2 Sep 1980 2335-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>

At (I think) the Noreascon panel on world building Mr. Niven
indicated that while he really liked the puppeteers he had come to
the conclusion that they could never have evolved because they had
no way to defend themselves.  I would like to rescue the puppeteers
from this plight.  Anyone else want to help?  I will start with the
following piece, but we will need more.

In one short story involving a mad puppeteer (I can't remember his
name, was it nestor by any chance?) the puppeteer killed someone by
kicking with a hind leg, very powerful blow and very effective.  One
of the other characters, a human, speculated that attempting to get
this hind leg into play may be where the puppeteers got their
(in)famous cowardice.  They weren't necessarily just fleeing, they
were also bring their most powerful weapon into position so it could
be used.  As I recall the story involved finding a slaver stasis box,
I also believe that this was the story that Niven "adapted" for the
Star Trek cartoon show, replacing the puppeteer with Mr. Spock. Can
anyone else come up with any other useful ways of getting the
puppeteers evolved or even helping to advance this idea?  I don't
remember the Known Space series well enough to search my mind for
details.

------------------------------

MCLURE@MIT-AI 09/03/80 03:34:43 Re:  mad puppeteer

The story CCIS.ZEVE@RUTGERS refers to is 'The Soft Weapon', collected
in Niven's NEUTRON STAR collection. A \very/ good story. The puppeteer
is Nessus.

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 08/30/80 04:02:35 Re: Pak building ringworld

Now, wait a minute, VAF.  Didn't Ringworld Engineers establish that
there WASN'T any transmutation device?

But the previous set of arguments about inconsistencies in the Pak's
building the ringworld are very good.  If it took a major effort to
build one spaceship, they aren't all that wonderful.

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 08/29/80 09:15:41

  Just looking at my backlogged mail, and have noticed two things
which I may be able to add to.  First off, I think that Kzanol had
taken a racarilaw (save my spelling) slave, which I don't think was
tnuctip. Supposedly, all sentient life (excluding bandersnatchi) was
wiped out by a massive telepathic "DIE" command, in a Pyhrric victory
for the thrints.... Incidentally, what happened to Greenberg/Kzanol's
memory of how the Thrint hyperdrive worked (actually tnuctpin, but who
cares).  Greenberg is presently (future context) falling across the
Galaxy at some portion of light speed.  (In "Elephant", Bey Shaeffer
is told the fact by an outsider, the ship is the "Lazy Eight II"
originally bound for Jinx - that was Greenberg's ship.
  Greenberg seems to be a loose end, just like Alice Jordan (from
Protector). What happens when a belter goldskin cop comes back from
searching for Brennan with a flatlander - And she is pregnant, without
the husband, and with Brennan's antique, much-improved ship....  And
what happens to Roy and company.... Are they utterly defeated (another
Pyrhhic victory) or is Niven holding back on us.  Idea - What if the
Protectors MANIPULATED the puppeteers into manipulating the Kzin
and human races. Other ideas: After Home fails, people are going to
explore it (they don't know that the planet is full of Tree-of-life),
and presto!  Protectors.  The protectors might still be around, but
wiser in working with "new" humans.  But the whole book "Protector"
is not known in "Known Space" - In Ringworld Engineers, Louis Wu
didn't know about it...
   Incidentally, is Louis Wu Bey Shaeffer's stepson (actual son of
Carlos Wu and Sharrol)? The dates fit perfectly - But why didn't
Niven mention it in regard to the "Long Shot" in Ringworld...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 SEP 1980 0654-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #67
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 5 Sept 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 67

Today's Topics: SF Books - Yet Another TNotB, Higher Ground Reactions,
                Known Space Anomalies - Puppeteers, Space Information,
                       TESB - Glorifies War? & Digital Record,
                  SF Movies - Battle Beyond the Stars & CE3K Revised
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1980 at 2200-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 
Subject: "The Number of the Beast" short story reference

The story referred to by DWS as possibly being by Dickson is probably
the one by Fritz Leiber.  It (also?) appeared in THE SIXTH GALAXY
READER, ed. by H.L. Gold, 1962.

------------------------------

Date: 09/04/80 1356-EDT
From: DELANEY at LL
Subject: Higher Ground at NOREASCON II

   I would like  to add my comments on  Jeanne Robinson's "Higher
Ground" to those  of Steven Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at  RUTGERS>.  It was
disappointing,  especially  given Jeanne  Robinson's credentials.
Let me add,   though,  that I have some stylistic  biases when it
comes to  dance.  I most enjoy,   and have been most  exposed to,
modern 'classical' ballet a la Ballanchine. In such dance, fluid-
ity of motion  is considered a mark of expertise.   One could say
that a skillful  dancer never makes a jerky  movement;  they just
flow from one place to another at differing speeds. Jeanne Robin-
son moved  jerkily.  Perhaps that  was intentional,  but  it dis-
pleased me.  Also, the slide show was annoying and out of place.
                              ___

   It is good  that people are trying to  synthesize science fic-
tion and dance, but the quality will have to be better before the
synthesis can be called effective.

------------------------------

Date: 04 SEP 1980 1418-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Higher Ground

Modern dance (which "Higher Ground" is related to --- it is definitely
\not/ ballet) is not necessarily supposed to be smooth.  I admit to
knowing very little about it myself, but it seemed to me that one of
the "jerkiest" sections of the dance was a deliberate reference to
the description of "Mass Is a Verb" in the first part of STARDANCE.
The slide show was part of the \performance/ of "Higher Ground", which
was never proposed as a solo dance work; the viewer's problem was not
to ignore one or another facet but to fit them all (music, lights,
screen visuals, and dance) into a whole (I won't get into the cliche
and argument about "great XXX" demanding something from the audience).
Certainly it wasn't entirely successful; zero-gee dance is not easy
to simulate under earth-normal gravity, and to compress the history
of several years of dreaming about what a zero-gee dance could be
into a 20-minute performance is difficult.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1980 at 1038-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: Puppeteer Survival

     I find it difficult to understand Larry Niven's claim that
puppeteers could not defend themselves.  They seem, to my mind,
very close to the ostrich in terms of evolution, and the ostrich
has no problems at all. As someone who has recently completed an
exotic animal training course, I can assure you all that lions,
tigers, bears, etc. are no problem at all, compared with the sheer
physical effort and stamina involved in taking two other people,
going into a corral, and TRYING to catch an ostrich!  These were
relatively tame, and did not try the famous disembowling kick, but
the effort damn near killed me anyway.

     The point is that they are large, powerful, well-armed, and
fast as the dickens. If they had intelligence I'd never ever consider
coming anywhere NEAR them.  The only thing that makes it possible is
that they are even dumber than chickens, if such a thing is possible.
(The formidable-looking beak is a pussycat.  They can't do a damn
thing with it.)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1980 1832-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: SIODMAK, CONGRESS, TESB

Just a few short comments on some of the recent digests.

1) Does anyone know how to pronounce Siodmak (as in Curt Siodmak).

2) When writing to Congresscritters, even those who chair
   committees and subcommittees, it is probably best to address
   them as "Representative" AND "Senator", rather than "Director."

3) Re the effect of SW and TESB on the populace, can anyone point to
   any evidence that they had the effect on any substantial part of
   the population that Dewey claims for them. I suspect that 'Star
   Trek' has had a much greater effect on shaping attitudes than SW
   and TESB ever will, but that is just a guess.
		Mike

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1980 14:42 PDT
From: STOGRYN.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Who is to censor whom?

I hope I don't seem off the current track, but . . .

     Even among the pacifists writing in to this SF-Lovers digest,
there is are differing points of view: those who feel violence is bad
but sex should be allowed, those who feel that the PTA has all the
answers, but that any religious affiliations tend to turn people off.
(I hear tell a few very religious people were pacifists of the highest
caliber).  Most objections seem to be about the extremes on the scale
of emotions. Too much violence and hate is bad, but so is too much
love - "liking" tends to be acceptable.

     I am able to judge for myself: what I should be able to read, the
meaning of what I do read, and what values I place on that material. I
don't want anyone telling me what I can or cannot read, see, eat, or
like.  If I want to read a novel that glorifies a war, I will.  That
doesn't mean that afterwards I will be a warmonger; most likely just
the opposite will happen. War movies make me appreciate peace all the
more. No matter how much fun it may seem in the context of a movie,
I know it is NOT reality.  People such as Dave can enjoy a movie
containing violence, know the difference, and still not realize it.

     I think that there is a silent majority out there that is
reluctant to speak up for its right to read what it wants. Adults
are capable of their own censorship.

     BUT if, as an adult, you are not able to make decisions for
yourself, a multitude of sources (newspapers, magazines, TV, radio,
and others) contain reviews of each of the other media. Movies are
reviewed; books are reviewed; so are TV programs.  Not just by one
person; everybody (from religous groups to Playboy) publishes reviews.
If you want someone to tell you what is right or wrong, there are
many people out there willing and waiting and wanting to guide you.

     Parents should be the censor for their children, not the FCC.
They should teach their children what is right and wrong, what to
question as right or wrong. Parents should teach their children to
censor themselves. SHOULD, I say; not that it is easy.

     Censorship is the enemy of freedom.  In America the First
Amendment guarantees us freedom of speech . . . this should include
the freedom of sight and reading. There should be no censorship of
the right to make movies with any subject matter (when I say movies
it could just as well be books, or any other media), so that those
of us who know reality can experience the multitude of human and
alien adventures.

     If you don't like movies with violence, don't go see them, don't
let your kids see them, but, also, don't censor them for those of us
who can take it.

     In any artistic endeavour, there is no right or wrong, whether
the art be audio or visual, the genre be science or fiction.

             Steve

------------------------------

Date: 04 SEP 1980 1425-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Luke: friends vs. world

  I think the quote referred to is more accurately rendered as "If
I were required to choose between betraying a friend and betraying
my country, I hope I should have the decency to betray my country."
  I think the shift from choice to betrayal is significant here, as
is the fact that the individual in question (if memory serves) had
no reason to waste enthusiasm on his country.

------------------------------

ZRM@MIT-MC 09/04/80 22:29:22
Re: Review of The Empire Strikes Back Orchestral Suite

     I recently purchased the Chalfont digital (Soundstream)
recording of the TESB suite. Don't. The sound is hollow, the hall
it was recorded in sounds like a gym. The pace is too slow, lacking
the brisk and concise sound of Williams's soundtrack version. All in
all this recording is an example of how not to do a digital recording.
It sounds like it was done in one take for each cut with no editing
or remix as is now possible with digital sound editing machines. It
seems, from the end product, that neither the musicians nor the
recordists were up to doing this "live" recording properly. Now if
only the Mobile Fidelity people would remaster the soundtrack...

Performance:FAIR
Recording:FAIR
Surface:EXCELLENT

------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1980 at 1038-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: "Battle Beyond the Stars"

     I went to see Roger Corman's latest, "Battle Beyond the Stars",
the other day, and was very pleasantly surprised indeed.  This is by
far the highest-class picture he's worked on to date, and is worth
every penny.  Those who remain staunch fans of "The Little Shop of
Horrors" will be pleased to learn that all of the Corman touches that
leave you in slack-jawed amazement at the audacity of the man are here
and plentiful.  It is a VERY funny, up-front space opera of the 30's
mold, a la Ron Goulart. Think of "The Seven Samurai Meet Darth Vader"
and you'll be pretty close.  Do not look for a serious moral, or a
message, or great plots, or anything like that; just sit back and
enjoy.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/05/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in the digest. It discusses
observations made by Robert Lange in [SFL V2 #37] and Bill Daul in
[SFL V2 #53] about the revised version of Close Encounters of the
Third Kind, and the in-jokes of the mothership. People who have not
seen either version of the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 08/26/80 00:18:47 Re: Close Encounters with Roy Neary

    As much as I like the idea of Roy Neary "turning into" an alien
at the end of CE3K, some evidence a friend brought before me tends to
deny the incident. He visited the FX center shortly after the filming
of the new interior mothership sequences, and tells me that there was
some footage omitted from the interior shots because it was too poor
in quality.
     According to him, the motherships acts (so he was told) as an
energy sponge - which is why all objects it passes over lose their
power.  Apparently the "glitter" burst at the end of the scene is an
absorbtion or release (I never quite got it straight) of energy from
a smaller craft which had spiralled up the central core in a previous
shot. The platform Neary was on was supposed to do the same, but they
couldn't get the fx work to look good enough. So the end result we
now see is largely serendipitous.
   My friend now has one of the original blueprints of the mothership
interior, gleaned while they were throwing them out. He also got to
step inside the model, and came away with one of the little plastic
aliens which you can see lining the sides of the core. Each alien
silhouette stood about one half inch tall. He adds that the folks at
the Glencove facilities added little in-joke figures inside the ship
just like on the outside. He mentioned a miniature "1941" airplane
ramming into some palms, and a girl levitating over a bed.
  Of course, this doesn't compare in number to the little objects
glued to the *outside* of the mothership. Besides R2D2 (the only
visible one) they attached a shark, a "1941" fighter plane, a
mailbox, Darth Vader, King Kong, some phalluses, a graveyard,
sailing ships, and a Tie fighter.
    What? No Robby the Robot? No Klaatu? Oh well.
   
         Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 SEP 1980 0816-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #68
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 6 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 68

  Today's Topics: Space Information, Known Space Anomalies - Kzinti,
                   TESB - Digital Record & Light Sabre Speculations
----------------------------------------------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/05/80 07:24:28
Re: Proper address for representatives and senators

A representative or senator whose last name is 'X' would be
addressed as 'Mr. X'. It is also correct to address a representative
as 'Congressman X' and a senator as 'Senator X'.  Committee and
subcommittee chairmen should ALWAYS be addressed as 'Mr. Chairman'.
For instance, if you are going to write to Jim Lloyd the chairman
of the Science and Technology Subcommittee for Investigations and
Oversight, you would address the letter as follows;

     The Honorable Jim Lloyd
     222 Canon House Office Bldg.
     Washington, DC 20515


     Dear Mr. Chairman:

        Etc. Etc.

It is considered to be a great honor to be elevated to a chairmanship
so, to make a good impression (they are probably as vain as Hollywood
movie stars), be sure to recognize the title.

                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date:  5 Sep 1980 0934-PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: If the opposite of pro is con ...

Then the opposite of progress is congress.

This gem thanks to Casey Quayle.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 04 SEP 1980 1450-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Thrint --> Kzin ??

  I don't think Larry Niven would have intended that extreme a
biological assertion, especially since he knows Bonnie Dalzell,
who did several anatomical drawings for his books and is an expert
speculator on potential alien creatures. Specific examples: the bone
structure of the two species is not even vaguely homologous, and no
species has either maintained itself for 2+ billion years or revived
in a recognizable form over that interval after declining. (That's a
weak phrasing of the argument, but I think you can see what I'm
driving at.)

  As it happens, that casual remark about non-sentient females is
one of Niven's more glaring casual errors --- not like the earth
rotating backward in the first edition of RINGWORLD, which was
simple carelessness, but an item tossed off for effect which he
never considered the implications of.  There were many pages of
discussion about the question in APA:NESFA and/or APALOOSA a few
years ago covering this from several angles:

-- Wouldn't a non-sentient creature raising potential sentients
   produce only "feral children"? That has been the result here;
   Kipling's JUNGLE BOOK is no more than an amusing fairy tale
   against a rather horrifying reality.

-- Or would a non-sentient mother simply be so exasperated with
   the mischief capacities of intelligent offspring that she'd
   offhandedly throttle them? (This from the one participant who
   actually was raising an ambulatory child at the time.)

-- Parenting requires training and practice; look at the recent
   case of a female panda, isolated in a zoo from her peers, who
   accidentally rolled over and squashed her 8-day-old offspring.
   Would the raising of sentients be within the capacity of a
   nonsentient?

The discussion culminated in an astounding article from Mark Keller,
one of Bonnie's colleagues who is now thesing in history, about how
such a society might come about (diseases associated with the onset
of puberty) and what the results might be.  Anyone in the vicinity
of MITSFS is encouraged to drop in and read the article in PROPER
BOSKONIAN, in the fanzine files; unless there is great demand I
won't put it in the online files since it runs around 30K characters.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/05/80 07:42:50 Re: Digital recordings

The problem with the Soundstream Mastering recorder is that it
doesn't allow editing or mixing after the fact (I consider this
to be a blessing but there are those who don't share my rather
puritannical audiophile tastes).  In my opinion, the new digital
mixing systems ARE NOT HI-FI.  The Soundstream system approaches
my standards (16 bit X 56Khz sample rate/channel) but I feel that
the sample rate is still too slow. The new digital mixing systems
are only 14bits wide, causing loss of definition at low levels.
There is more to recording than just low noise.  Low noise is
unimportant psycho-acoustically if all the other parameters are
correct.  If you don't believe me, go to a concert with a sound
pressure level meter and measure the signal/noise ratio.

The comments about the hall sound are well taken.  The idiots who
pass themselves off as recording engineers today have no idea how
to record a live orchestra.  They forget that in order for a hall
to sound right, you have to have bodies (sound absorbing material)
in the seats.  As far as the performance goes, you just have to
argue that with the conductor.

                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/06/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.  People who have not seen these
movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  12 August 1980 22:07 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Light sabre speculations

   OK, Here it is:
      Question: Why do Jedi Knights carry light sabres??
      Answer is \NOT/ to get across the street.

   Consider:

1. Vader, Ben Kenobi, and Yoda, after revealing himself as Yoda, show
   little, if any, fear of rifles, guns, blasters, and whatever. In
   fact, when Solo shoots Vader, Vader deflects it with a mere wave
   of his hand. We must assume that this is an extension of his
   ability to manipulate (ta-da-da-dahh) THE FORCE.

   In support, it is established that one skilled in using the Force
   has control over material objects. It seems reasonable, although
   I cannot think of direct evidence, that this extends to being able
   to manipulate electromagnetic energies, as well. This would account
   for the ineffectiveness of the blasters.
   
   [ Speculation: could a group of skilled Jedi use this ability
     to shield more than just themselves? How about a whole base?
     A planet? ]
   
2. During the light sabre battle, Luke manages to strike Vader. Vader
   appears to be injured. Thus, the light saber is effective where a
   blaster is not. The most reasonable explanation for this is:
   
3. The light saber's operation is based on manipulation of The Force.
   It seems that it is really a form of mechanical aid to a certain
   type of use of The Force, i.e., a psionic amplifier. Now, if this
   seems hard to take, consider:

   a. Vader's and Kenobi's light sabre colors were different and
      \consistent/.
   b. From STAR WARS through TESB, Luke's sabre color changes, in some
      cases according to apparent emotion. Notice the colors in "Luke
      in the tree", "Luke & Vader, rounds 1 and 2", and that the snow
      monster's wound bled while Luke's and Vader's were cauterized.
      But mostly, the color changes are due to practice and improved
      ability.

4. There have been several (if not many) Jedi or potential Jedi that
   have gone over to the (hiss) Dark Side of the Force.  Consider
   that both Kenobi and Yoda know a great deal about the Dark Side
   and those who serve it. Vader may be the only extant example, but
   he is by no means unique.
   
5. The Force is also an instantaneous (or nearly so) information
   carrier, i.e., one can see via use of The Force. Thus it would
   be difficult, if not impossible, to plan a trap for a Jedi.
   
6. Nevertheless, there must be a way to kill an aberrant Jedi... So,
   only an extension of The Force can defeat The Force. This comes
   back to the light sabre operating through The Force.
   
     This explains a number of otherwise loose ends.

1. Why Vader fears light sabres, even when wielded by unskilled
   hands, such as Luke.
   
2. Why all Jedi knights, even "Dark" knights, carry them.
   
3. Why no one else, in the middle of a war, carries or uses such
   a powerful weapon.
   
     This last point raises some very interesting questions.
   
     The first of which is "Who is 'The Other'?".
   
   My nomination is Han Solo.
   
   "Why?" You say...
   
   "Why? Because I like him..."  uh...oops.. Wrong Universe. But,
   consider:

1. Han Solo's remarkable piloting ability, evasively (in both
   films, especially the trick to get away from the battle
   cruiser), defensively, and offensively (they keep knocking
   off Tie fighters and generally suffer only an exhausted
   shield).
   
2. The general degree of success he has had in staying in front
   of the law while conducting a successful career in smuggling.
   
3. His remarkable ability to find Luke:
   a. at the Death Star, to find his little X-wing amidst a rather
      large battle, and then to have the relatively large, slow,
      and non-maneuverable Millenium Falcon cover for one of those
      fast, fast X-wings. Not to mention actually hitting Vader's
      ship, something that none of the multi-hundred fighters, which
      were designed and trained for that purpose, had managed to do.
   b. On Hoth, to find him in zero visability when even his
      instruments were freezing. [I suggest that Solo stepping out
      of Kenobi's image is because Luke was aware of someone using
      the Force to find him, but just associated it with the wrong
      person.]
      
4. Solo's ability to use a light sabre and have it cauterize the
   wound, as well as being a bright "experienced" color. There was
   no blood when he killed the Tauntaun. 
   
   Notice this in particular, we see \nobody/ but Jedi, or potential
   Jedi as with Luke being given the sabre by Kenobi (who already
   knew that Luke had the ability) \ever/ use a light sabre. This is
   despite opportunity and need. Han Solo is the \only/ exception.
   
5. His utter calm (at the last second) when he is faced with the
   freezer. It seems sort of a "Oh well, let him do it, it doesn't
   matter." He wasn't afraid because he "knew" The Force would
   protect him when he used it at the last second. Vader wouldn't
   be monitoring him, not with Luke, 'Bacca, and Leia all there.
   
   Calrissian's long check of the controls on the case can be used
   to either prove or disprove this:
   
   a. Disprove: he was making sure that Solo was OK, and (maybe)
      setting something to break him free in flight, then saying
      "He's frozen (for now))."
      
      After more thought, I don't like this theory. Anyone as
      suspicious as an experienced bounty hunter would notice and
      suspect and therefore guard against the possibility by either
      re-adjusting the controls or by stowing the "ice cube" in a
      vacuum or behind locked doors in case "the fix was in".
      Besides, I wouldn't trust Vader not to double cross me also.
      
   b. Prove: Calrissian realized that according the the instrument
      readings Solo should not have survived. Yet, according the the
      readings, he did. His survival must have been due to something
      outside of the freezing process itself. With the audiance he
      has, he couldn't afford to show a reaction, but it still took
      several seconds to convince himself of what he had seen.
      
      Perhaps it is this anomaly that started his "conversion"
      against Vader.
      
     All in all, I think there is more evidence for Solo having a
great potential in using The Force than there was for Luke before
Kenobi started training him.

     Now, since STAR WARS is supposed to be the Skywalker family
story, it may just turn up that Luke and Solo are related. It would
be an interesting twist if Vader turned out to be Solo's father also.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 SEP 1980 0900-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #69
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 7 Sept. 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 69

  Today's Topics: SF Movies - Flash Gordon & Battle Beyond the Stars,
      SF Books - Sorting F/SF & Misc. Responses & Pliocene Earth,
 Known Space Anomalies - Non-sentient females & Puppeteers & Genealogy
----------------------------------------------------------------------

MASEK@MIT-ML 09/07/80 02:42:04 Re: The new Flash Gordon

I saw the movie at a sneak preview in Boston last Friday night.  It
seemed like an art deco version of the story.  Most of the music was
by a restrained (I believe) Queen (the rock group).  The costumes
were very nice.  The special effects were mediocre at best.  I don't
believe they took themselves very seriously.  Overall I liked it, but
I don't believe it's a great film.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 1980 09:59 PDT
From: EmbarassedAnonymous at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "Battle Beyond the Stars"

I find myself forced to disagree with Mike O'Brien's review of
BBtS. Not being familiar with Roger Corman's work in general, I'm
not qualified to say whether it's his "highest-class picture", but
compared to other medium-budget SF films, this is *low* class stuff.
It is by no stretch of the imagination science fiction. It is comedy,
and as such, succeeds only partially.  Some of the jokes, visual and
verbal, are very funny, but many are so predictable you'll groan out
loud.  The effects are incredibly uneven; some are completely
believable, but some, especially mattes and models, are ridiculously
fake-looking.  The "acting" is miserable.  Richard Thomas apparently
doesn't know how to play any character except John-Boy Walton, and,
except for the non-human characters, this movie is a marvel of
miscasting.

Go to see it if you must, but don't forget to bring a paper bag or
newspaper to hide your face on the way out.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Sep 1980 1740-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: mixed sf/f.

As to mixed sf/f. To HJJH, have you read "Conjure Wife"?  If you had
I think you would know what I mean.  One author once said that every
science fiction story is allowed to make one assumption to make the
story work, for instance that FTL exists.  In "Conjure Wife" the
assumption is that what we call magic exists and works by rules
we don't understand yet.  All of the books I mentioned make the
assumption that magic exists and works by rigid mathematical laws.
Ie. you can't do just anything, you must follow the rules. Perhaps
the best example of this is Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories
(although Garrett has made several assumptions, the first of which
is that Richard the Lion-Hearted didn't die from the Crusades but
lived to be a superb king and the last of which is that magic works,
by strict mathematical laws, and that one must have a talent for it).

	steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 1980 13:01:45-PDT
From: Cory.kalash at Berkeley
Subject: One Tree, and Incomplete Enchanter Series

I was at an autograph party for Donaldson in mid-July, and he said
that he was in the first rough draft of "The One Tree".  It looks
like it won't be out until next year, at the earliest.

Speaking of The Incomplete Enchanter series, I hope nobody has
forgotten "The Green Magician", the last in the series (they
finally get to medieval Ireland).

			Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1980 (Wednesday) 1946-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)

What was the name of the Dorsai short story about Ian Graehme
coming back to Earth to avenge the death of one of his men. He
confronts the man's brother, who "killed" his brother by making
him feel like a coward, causing him to get himself killed.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Sep 1980 1740-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Childe Cycle

The Ian Graeme story in question is "Warriors", it originally
appeared in the December 1965 issue of Analog. This is the story
I mistakenly referred to as "Man of War".

------------------------------

Date:  1 September 1980 2300-EDT (Monday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Computers in SF

I've missed a couple issues, so this may be redundant:

	Algis Budrys - "Michelmas"

------------------------------

MASEK@MIT-ML 09/07/80 02:27:57 Re:  Novels about Cats

I recently read the novel Magnifi-cat.  It was about a cat who went
to heaven as an ultimate saint and the problems this causes.  It is
not a `great' novel, but it is amusing. I believe it was written by
a bishop who was having fun.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1980 1459-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: The Many-Colored Land by Julian May

During the 1980 WorldCon, reproductions of the first 64 pages of the
manuscript of The Many-Colored Land by Julian May were distributed as
souvenirs.  The Many-Colored Land is volume I of The Pliocene Earth
Trilogy, and is scheduled for publication in the spring of 1981 by
Houghton Mifflin.  Presumably, this release is to drum up some
business early in the game.  From the author's teaser:

     In A.D. 2034, Theo Guderian, a French physicist, made an amusing
but impractical discovery: the means to use a one-way, fixed-focus
time warp that opened into a place in the Rhone River valley during
the idyllic Pliocene Epoch, six million years ago.  But, as time went
on, a certain usefulness developed. The misfits and mavericks of the
future -- many of them brilliant people -- began to seek this exit
door to a mysterious past.  In 2110, a particularly strange and
interesting group was preparing to make the journey -- a starship
captain, a girl athlete, a paleontologist, a woman priest, and others
who had reason to flee the technological perfection of twenty-second-
century life.

     Thus beings this dazzling fantasy novel that invites comparisons
with the work of J.R.R. Tolkien, Arthur C. Clarke, and Ursula Le Guin.
It opens up a whole world of wonder, not in far-flung galaxies but in
our own distant past on Earth -- a world that will captivate not only
science-fiction and fantasy fans but also those who enjoy literate
thrillers.

     The group that passes through the time-portal finds an unforseen
strangeness on the other side.  Far from being uninhabitated [sic],
Pliocene Europe is the home of two warring races from another planet.
There is the knightly race of the Tanu -- handsome, arrogant, and
possessing vast powers of psychokinesis and telepathy.  And there is
the outcast race of Firvulag -- dwarfish, malevolent, and gifted with
their own supernormal skills.  Taken captive and transported through
the primordial European landscape, the humans manage to break free,
join in an uneasy alliance with the forest-dwelling Firvulag, and
finally launch an attack against the Tanu city of light on the banks
of a river that, eons later, would be called the Rhine.

     Myth and legend, wit and violence, speculative science, and
breathtaking imagination mingle in this romantic fantasy, which is
the first volume in a series.  The sequel, titled THE GOLDEN TORC,
will follow soon from Houghton Mifflin.

From what I read there are the germs of an interesting yarn here.
It is a bit hard to tell, as there are several quite obvious rough
spots which will need smoothing out.  I'm also not too sure about
the author's writing style; but I'll suspend judgement until the book
comes out.  Did anybody else get this package at WorldCon, and if so,
what were your comments about it?  Has anybody read anything else by
May?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 1980 3:09 pm PDT (Saturday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Thrint --> Kzin ??

With regard to Hitchcock's remarks concerning non-sentient
females caring for sentient offspring [SFL V2 #68], I call foul!
His analysis makes the blatantly sexist assumption that only the
female is qualified to raise young. Why can't the father raise the
sentient children?  In fact, Greenberg/Kzanol's memory of when he
first demonstrated the Power might be taken as a slight indication
that the sons tended to stay with the fathers.

	-- Don.

------------------------------

Date:  5 Sep 1980 (Friday) 0845-PST
From: HIRGELT at LLL-MFE
Subject: Pierson Puppeteers

A comment on Mike O'Brien's concerning the ability of Pierson
Puppeteers.

In RingWorld Niven makes a point of the ability of Puppeteers to
defend themselves. There was a comment about their always turning
their backs to fight so that they could get their powerful third
leg involved in the fight. I was struck by this because a great
deal had been said prior to this about their lack of courage. They
do have fighting ability and if suitably motivated (or insane) they
will fight.

I'm not familiar with the Known Space stories to know if this is
brought out there as well.

Ed

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/07/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
some apparent anomalies within Niven's Known Space series.  Spoilers
for several of the stories and novels within this series are involved.
People who are not familiar with the series may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 09/04/80 17:22:18

Niven has linked many of the Known Space stories with genealogy.

In "World of Ptavvs" and some other stories focussed on the Belt,
we meet Martin Schaeffer, nicknamed "Little" or "Lit" because he
is around seven feet tall. He has some marital problems: his wife
doesn't get to Confinement Asteroid in time and the baby she is
carrying hypertrophies and has to be aborted.  Lit promises her
that she can stay in Confinement until she gets pregnant again.

Beowulf Schaeffer belongs to a later era. I don't know whether he
is Lit's son: perhaps more intervening generations are involved.
Bey is a seven-foot-tall albino, a native of We Made It (or
"Crashlander"). He is the hero of several short stories but to
my continuing disappointment does not have his own novel.

In "Flatlander", Bey meets Sharrol Janss and they fall in love. In
"Grendel", we learn that Sharrol cannot tolerate space travel. Bey
is willing to relocate to Earth for her sake, but the Fertility
Board refuses to grant him a Birthright because he is an albino. He
and Sharrol both want children, so they "impose" on a mutual friend,
a mathematical genius named Carlos Wu. Carlos lives with Sharrol for
two years, fathering two children, Louis and Tanya.  For those two
years, Bey stays away from Earth, having an affair with a starship
pilot named Margo something. Then he returns to Earth and presumably
lives happily ever after with Sharrol and his two foster-children. 
No stories come from this period of his life.

It has always struck me as peculiar that Louis Wu had never heard of
the Long Shot, nor of Bey's odyssey to the galactic core in "At the
Core".  As a matter of fact, Louis only remembers that the galaxy is
exploding as a vague fact from college.  You would think that he would
be more familiar with his foster father's exploits.  Oh, well: I don't
know in what order the stories were written, but I do appreciate how
hard it is to hold a universe together.  (One look at modern particle
physics is enough to convince you that God is having a hard time with
this one.  "Oh, no, what am I going to do about THAT cludge?  Maybe
another meson...")

   ---Wechsler

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 SEP 1980 0636-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #70
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 8 Sept 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 70

 Today's Topics:          Future - Breakthru Speculations,
                 SF Books - Sorting F/SF & 2 Plot and Title Queries,
                         Known Space Anomalies - Puppeteers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  7 SEP 1980 1455-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: musings

Recently, some friends of mine and I were sitting around discussing
the affairs of the world in our usual all-knowing way, and we got on
the subject of where technology would go in the future. The point was
made that it seems that, at the moment, there haven't been any really
stupendous breakthrus in the scientific world -- ones with the effects
of, for instance, the steam engine or the transistor -- effects like
greatly improving the way many things are done at the moment, and
also capable of great further refinement to inspire thousands of
new inventions. The transistor, for instance, has been refined to
the point that we can now make calculators so small you can't push
the damn buttons.
    So we postulated what might be next.  Suggestions included force-
fields, antigravity (it wasn't TOO scientific a discussion), a great
new battery or power source, and everybody dying in a nuclear war. The
most interesting idea, however, was based on the new recombinant DNA
research. Ideas borrowed from Larry Niven (carpet-grass, housecleaning
animals) and Cordwainer Smith (underpeople) might soon be possible
through selected genetic manipulation.  Houses grown from mutated
trees, a mutated breadfruit that supplies all the basic requirements
for life, an intelligent horse that can read maps, watchdogs with
opposable thumbs and who carry guns...  and all the developments from
plants are solar-powered.  It would radically change the way we live.
Anyone else find this interesting enough to talk about? 

Stan Forward

------------------------------

Date:  8 Sep 1980 at 0154-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SF vs. F ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The crucial drawback to Steve Z's proposition is that if the
existence of magic is allowed as the one gratuitous assumption
an SF story is permitted -- THE SF vs. F DISTINCTION IS LOST.
  ________

Of COURSE there are rules to magic just as there are in science.
For the aim of magic (using and changing nature) approximates
that of science, which is itself an outgrowth of magic. I am not
referring to just the minor operations like the effects of cold
iron, or running water, or silver bullets, or the wooden stake
through a vampire's heart, but the major Laws of Sympathy and
of Contagion well known to folklorists and anthropologists and
pervasive throughout most human cultures' engagement in magic.
Cf. Frazer's classic THE GOLDEN BOUGH.

\Good/ fantasy (i.e., the kind *I* like best) is that in which the
author abides as meticulously by the Laws of Grammarie as he would
the laws of physics in penning a comparable SF story.  Not all our
authors -- whether of F \or/ SF -- do this, but Garrett is certainly
a prime example of an expert at this particular style of fantasy. The
more one knows one's Grammarie, the more one can appreciate just what
he has done.  (Other outstanding instances are Stasheff's WARLOCK IN
SPITE OF HIMSELF and Anderson's OPERATION CHAOS.  I'd also recommend
Simak's THE GOBLIN RESERVATION and Koontz' THE HAUNTED EARTH.  These,
along with Garrett's TOO MANY MAGICIANS and MURDER AND MAGIC, are all
books I never got around to writing up as fantasy examples in response
to the query of some time ago about comedic SF<&F>.)

------------------------------

Date:  8 September 1980 0040-EDT (Monday)
From: Lars.Ericson at CMU-10A (M200LE60)
Subject: Does anybody remember?

A story, possibly by Clifford Simak, possibly called Journey into
Eternity, but probably not on both counts.  Involves a man and a
woman, who travel through time (strictly Earth context), and meet
each other in various guises.  One context involves Hanging Gardens
in Babylon; another around Stonehenge times; a third has pyramids.
I can't remember the ending, but I think it involves them joining
in some sort of union, entering a new plane of existence, etc. Ring
any bells???

Lars.Ericson@cmua

------------------------------

Date:  8 September 1980 0220-EDT (Monday)
From: Roger Duffey <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: Here's the Plot, What's the Title?

     I am trying to find a series of light SF stories that deal
with religion and terraforming.  In this series an ancient alien
race has an elaborate set of ethics regarding revenge and a
religion which worships many different gods.  Their pantheon is
clearly an SF adaptation of the far East pantheon. After suitable
devotions you can be chosen by one of the god's as his represen-
tative.  When chosen you gain the ability to use certain natural
forces. One of them is a power pull, which is a natural upwelling
of force in a certain location.  When near one you can manipulate
its power.  The series centers around the activities of the one
human adept who uses his abilities to terraform or manipulate the
ecology of planets for hire.

     There is one image that sticks in my mind from this series.
The human adept is about to leave a planetoid that he has recently
worked on.  As he does all the animals begin to follow him and
prevent him from leaving in his ship because they know him as
their "god".

     I believe the stories were by Zelazny, in particular because
the religion for these stories also forms part of the background
of Zelazny's TO DIE IN ITALBAR.  However, I could be mistaken.
Does anyone know anything about this series?

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1980 1305-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: Puppeteers defense ability

The only story I know of in which a Pierson's puppeteer actually
defends itself (against a Kzin, of all things!) is "The Soft
Weapon", which is anthologized in *Neutron Star*.  He (Nessus)
is quite successful, but almost goes (more) insane as a result.

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1980 1626-PDT
From: CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE
Subject: NET joke

The following was taken from the ITS BBoard:

How many NET people does it take to screw in a light blub?

Well I lost count. First off, someone proposes that a light blub
needs changing. Three more send replies agreeing with this position.
Nine more object to the whole idea. Four others think that DCA should
supply light blubs.  One sends a message saying that light blubs are
not an appropriate topic for the ARPANET. Two arise in defense of
light blub discussions. One forwards all this to SF-lovers which is
where I lost count because of the overlap in interests.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 SEP 1980 0727-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #71
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 9 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 71

   Today's Topics:   Future - Breakthru Speculations, Known Space
                    Anomalies - Non-sentient females & Puppeteers,
                   SF Books - Sorting F/SF & Plot and Title Queries
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1980 15:20:11-PDT
From: CSVAX.horowitz at Berkeley (via RODOF at USC-ECL)
Subject: contemporary technology

Dear Stan,
     I submit, contrary to your contention, that the laser is a
recent technological breakthrough worthy of "transistor" status,
and that we have not yet realized its full potential. This potential
includes extensions to "X-ray-sers" and "gamma-ray-asers" capable of
concentration of and penetration by an enormously powerful coherent
energy beam (of course, we'll need to discover new sources of energy
to run the things continuously).  In fact, a blurb in this week's
Newsweek claims that British scientists have tested a working
X-ray-aser.  Naturally, the US military will meet with them to
ascertain the warfare applications...
     Another major society-shaping breakthrough will be in-vitro
gestation.  This will give us so-called "bottle babies" a la Brave
New World, but more importantly, will allow genetic engineering to
produce new mammalian life in the laboratory.
     Last, but not least, is the continued hope that an advanced
extraterrestrial sentience saves us from the impending mess, brought
on by technological advances coupled with human emotional and social
immaturity (you've heard that one before, no doubt!)...

                                                Yours in the future,
                                                Steven Horowitz

----------------

Date: 8 Sep 1980 15:20:11-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL

Dear Steven,

    Your message is of interest, although I wish you had sent it to
SF-L, because I am hopeful of starting a discussion on the subject
that I can use both as a matter of my own interest in the concept
and as a basis for dialogue in a story I'm trying to write in which
the characters discuss the same thing.  However, let's discuss your
points.

    #1: I don't agree about the laser.  It was ballyhooed greatly
about eight years ago as the device that would practically save the
world and restore decency eveywhere, but it really hasn't (with the
notable exception of holography and those neat little scanners in
supermarkets) graduated much beyond the stage of an advanced welding
torch.  As a matter of fact, a number of processes that switched to
laser technology during the fever of the "race-to-the-moon" sixties
have switched back because lasers just don't work well for cutting
cloth or wood, stripping bark off trees, or even (yet) as portable
hand weapons.  Even new advances in the technology such as X- or
Gamma- lasers (if such are possible -- I recently read an article
that claimed they were not, but articles have been wrong before)
may not be better weapons than a charged-particle beam.

    #2: As for babies in bottles, that, even though the technology
for it is real possible in the near future, the stupendous hell of
a controversy THAT would stir up would probably result in enough
legislative redtape to set genetic research back 50 years.  I hope
the scientists will have the sense to leave people alone and stick
to plants and lower animals for a while.  I'd love a second set of
arms, or a tail, but I'd be willing to bet that I'll have to make
do with an altered intelligent monkey manservant first.

    The last point here is that I don't mean something new and neat
that can make a few things easier, I mean something that will upset
the economy, throw thousands out of work, be applicable to thousands
of daily tasks, and after everthing has settled down, leave the world
tremendously changed. That means something like portable cheap fusion
"batteries", easy-to-do antigravity, a truly intelligent robot... or
Rover getting up on his hind legs and demanding the right to vote.

    If you don't mind -- I'll leave the close encounter alone. The
variables are many and widespread, and they have been dealt with
many times before by better men than I.

    See you in a hundred years,
           Stan Forward

P.S. -- You must understand, here, that I don't claim to know a
great deal about what I'm talking about. If you have, for instance,
a degree in laser dynamics and can shower me with facts that SHOW
the laser is going to set the world on it's ear in twenty years,
then by all means, rain curses down upon me and accept my apologies.
I'm just trying to write stories, and all's I know is what I reads
in the papers.  (Or ask my father about -- but he never DID tell me
why the sky is blue)

------------------------------

Date: 08 SEP 1980 1503-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: Thrint --> Kzin?? and sexism

  Oof! a very palpable hit! --- although I would offer that the fault
is more in the condensation of several months' lengthy discussions of
nearly four years ago than of a sexist bias.  I think I misquoted one
of the arguments proffered by someone who was at the time raising a
5-year-old; her suspicion was that the male Kzinti temperament could
not stand the aggravation of offspring (will you grant that they can
be \very/ aggravating?  With 6 or more of various ages running around
NESFA just now I frequently find them so) and would be more likely to
claw an annoying underage Kzin than to tolerate it.
  I also recall that at some point in the Known Space series
someone specifically states that the Kzin survived despite the loss
of ca. 2/3 of each male generation to war because the (non-sentient)
females weren't involved; since the Kzinti even after "taming" were
highly individualistic ("If the Patriarchy were to introduce forced
population control, the Patriarchy would be exterminated for its
insolence") they probably used labor-intensive child-rearing
methods rather than high-efficiency forms (such as creches, BRAVE
NEW WORLD-style), which means that there would not be enough males
to \raise/ (i.e., not just teach) the children.
  There's also the question of exactly how children were brought up
in \human/ societies in Known Space; aside from Confinement Asteroid
and glancing references in A GIFT FROM EARTH I recall very little to
suggest that the pattern differs from that of Earth in the late 60's
--- i.e., the women have \at/ \least/ half the responsibility.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1980 3:57 pm PDT (Monday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Puppeteers' defense

In reply to THOMAS@UTAH-20, Nessus defends himself similarly at one
point in Ringworld.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/08/80 07:32:42 Re: SF vs. F

Let us not forget Clarke's third law:

"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Given that, I think that in some cases, magic should be allowed in SF.
As long as we violate no physical principles (known or unknown), why
not?  As far as I am concerned, FTL, teleportation, telepathy, is just
as much magic as someone waving his/her hand and something appears or
disappears.

                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date:  8 September 1980 1914-EDT (Monday)
From: Lars.Ericson at CMU-10A (M200LE60)
Subject: Yet another plot without title

These people land on this planet (which they may want to take
advantage of, I'm not sure).  The natives make them their governors:
they have to wear a seal of government office.  The catch is that if
any native goes to a polling-place and votes against them for some
reason, the seal blows up and kills them.

Anybody remember this one??

------------------------------

Date:  9 September 1980 0220-EDT
From:  The Moderator
Subject:  Here's the Plot, What's the Title?


Does anyone remember the story about the man and woman time
travellers who meet in various guises at different times?

"The Path Beyond the Stars" by Emil Petaja

   The story to which you refer might be "The Path Beyond the Stars",
   by Emil Petaja. It is loaded with astrological symbolism. The two
   characters are named Jon Wood and Venus Trine.  They finally get
   together "at the end of time", with this ultimate descendant of
   the human race who has been watching the universe die, and decides
   to give them the opportunity to start anew, and sends them off to
   be Adam and Eve.          -- W. Olin Sibert <Sibert at MIT-Multics>

   That's the one.              --  Lars.Ericson at CMU-10A (M200LE60)


I am looking for a series of stories about a polytheistic alien
religion involving terraforming.

ISLE OF THE DEAD by Roger Zelazny (novel)

   I can recall only one story dealing with the described subject;
   it's a full-length novel (although somewhat disjointed) by
   Zelazny.  I believe the piece in question is ISLE OF THE DEAD,
   which is the location of the final battle between the hero and
   a conservative member of the religion in question who is outraged
   at someone not of his own species being able to take on the aspect
   of one of his gods.  (This leaves me hunting for the title of the
   novel which is based on Egyptian mythology and which begins in
   the House of the Dead, ruled over by Anubis. TODAY WE CHOOSE FACES,
   perhaps?  Anyway, it contains the Shoe Litany, one of Zelazny's
   more entertaining bits of whimsy.)
                              --  Chip Hitchcock <HITCHCOCK at CCA>

   Roger is correct, the stories are by Zelazny.  The human trained
   as a planet former is Francis Sandow (sp?). He also makes a minor
   appearance in TO DIE IN ITALBAR, where people think they have
   killed him (but have not).  As I recall, his offstage movements
   were crucial to the story, although he was not the main character.
   I believe the scene Roger described was from ISLE OF THE DEAD
   (title refers to the religion of the aliens who taught the art of
   planet forming).  I'll check my collection tonight to verify the
   title. It's been too long since I read it...but I know how some of
   Zelazny's images stick in one's mind...maybe I should re-read it.
                                  --  Susan Rajunas <SRajunas at BBNC>

     The additional descriptions all agree with my other memories
   of these works.  I suspect that some parts of the IotD may have
   also appeared as short stories in one or more of the SF magazines
   leaving me with the impression of a series.  In any event it is
   light, entertaining reading.
     Thanks also go to Glenn Burke <GSB at MIT-ML>, P. David Lebling
   <PDL at MIT-DMS>, Mike O'Brien <OBrien at Rand-Unix>, Allan
   Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>, and Steve Zeve <CCIS.Zeve at Rutgers>
   for responding to this query.   --  Roger Duffey <Duffey at MIT-AI>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 SEP 1980 0712-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #72
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 10 Sept 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 72

Today's Topics: Future- Breakthru Speculations, SF Books- Sorting F/SF
                   & Plot and Title Queries, Basic fantasies of SF,
                Known Space Anomalies - Non-sentient Females & Thrint
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  9 SEP 1980 0824-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Future Breakthroughs

     A very simple breakthrough that would have an effect on the
whole world by increasing everyone's productivity 50% and breaking
us from time-belt by time-belt day-night slavery would be a method
for eliminating the need to sleep.
     Which brings up an interesting question. Why do we sleep when
it is obviously bad for your survival? (Tigers can sneak up on you
easier.)
     I have read the thought-provoking suggestion that sleep is
necessary for garbage collection and reprogramming of the brain's
software, or perhaps for turning some of the new software into
firmware, but has anyone developed any proof of these hypotheses?

------------------------------

Date:  9 Sep 1980 (Tuesday) 1918-EDT
From: WESTFW at WHARTON (William Westfield)
Subject: Technology breakthroughs....

I would tend to agree that the LASER could qualify as a
significant breakthrough, although not in the guise of high power
cutting tools as was suggested by someone else. There are currently
surgical techniques that rely on the properties of lasers, but the
most significant impact has been that of semi-conductor LASERs on
communications technology.  Video-phones and extremely high speed
data communications become quite possible, though they havent yet
appeared in commercial markets. (more on this in a few sentences).
There was also the related developement of thin film optics to go
with this, although I havent seen anything on this recently.  The
Josephson junction is another earth shattering discovery, now that
practical circuits are being built with them.  However, I tend to
fear that although technological breakthroughs still occur, society
has gained such effective mass that it has too much momentum to
be changed by even greater technical breakthroughs than I have
mentioned.  This is obvious in the case of something like bottle
babies. If there were cheap fusion batteries, they would be held
back by anti-fusion battery groups, not to mention oil companies,
people with interests in fission, and so on.  A lot of currently
viable technology is being (supressed) because it would displace
too many workers [this is currently being discussed on HUMAN-NETS].
4 billion people just can't reshape their views overnight, at least
not without seriously deranging many of them - see FUTURE SHOCK
(Toffler) and the SHOCKWAVE RIDER (Brunner).

Bill Westfield (WESTFW@WHARTON)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1980 12:51:21-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: technology breakthroughs

RODOF at USC-ECL proposes that there have been no really "stupendous"
breakthroughs in the scientific world recently. I might propose that
s/he consider the silicon chip, especially as applied to computer
technology.  With it's capabilities barely scraped, it has already
changed the way we play, write, create video programs, cook meals,
enroll for classes, produce films, diagnose medical problems, and
in many ways, the way we approach problem solving.  This applies
not just to computer scientists, but to the entire society.  One
can hardly claim an inferiority to the changes wrought by the
steam engine or the stirrup.

However, I am intrigued by the idea of genetic engineering as the
next one.  Certainly we have already seen its possibilites in the
medical world, and that's probably also just a drop in the bucket.
How about chairs, pillows, and beds which mold themselves to fit
your body? Alarm clocks that gently waken you with mild shakes and
soft sounds, instead of raucous bells, buzzers, and commercials
on the radio?  The only problem I can see is if the things have
to be intelligent enough that they become petulant and, possibly,
revolutionary due to their slave state. That could cause some
interesting problems. Beware the SPCF (Society for the Prevention
of Cruelty to Furniture)!!!

		Ken Arnold

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1980 0938-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Magic vs Technology

   Actually, Randall Garrett's Darcy stories and Anderson's
"Operation Chaos" stories represent the converse of Clarke's Law,
i.e. "Any sufficiently developed magic is indistinguishable from a
technology". There are probably other stories on this theme. Marion
Zimmer Bradley's Darkover stories, nominally marketed as SF, deal
with this idea (the "Matrix Technology" is the hypertrophied magic).
   This shouldn't be surprising when you consider the history of
science on our own world. Copernicus and Newton both had intimations
of the occult in their writings.  Mathematics was long considered
a form of magic.  A very credible thesis could be formed that our
present technology IS simply a sufficiently developed form of magic.

	Mike

------------------------------

Date: 09 SEP 1980 1301-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)

While I do not recall any light SF dealing with the topic, I believe
that what you are looking for is the "prequel" to To Die On Italbar.
The novel is The Isle of the Dead, by Zelazny and deals with Francis
Sandow and his immortality. (As an aside sometimes I wonder if Sandow
and Conrad are the same person, but the two universes do not jib well
enough for it to be serious speculation).  This novel is anything but
light since it deals with death, "reincarnation" and how an immortal
reacts written.  The Planetoid he leaves, is not a planetoid, it is
a full sized planet he created as his home many years previous to
the story's beginnings. He is the reincarnation, human manifestation
whatever of Shimbo of Darktree, the "lord of thunder".  Shimbo seems
to be a combination of various chinese(?) and hindu gods.

I retract my first statement, I can think of a lighthearted novel,
clearly not the one you were thinking of, which does not really deal
with gods, but you might enjoy it.  Another Fine Myth, by R. Asprin.
A magician's apprentice gets involved with a demonsional traveller (a
Demon, for short) and goes off with him to see the worlds.  The book
is full of puns and tongue in cheek humor and I highly recommend it.
What brought it to mind is that the apprentice uses "force lines" to
work his magic.  (There is also a sequel Mythconceptions due out any
time now).

Gail Hormats (gfh@CCA)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1980 0915-EDT
From: SRAJUNAS at BBNC
Subject: request for title

The title Chip was seeking is CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS.  I
checked my copy of ISLE OF THE DEAD last night; Chip is correct that
it was the scene of the showdown between Francis Sandow (alias Shimbo
of Darktree, Shrugger of Thunders) and the being who holds the name of
Belion, Shimbo's traditional enemy in the pantheon (he and Sandow have
never met).  The title refers to a painting by Boecklin (I've no idea
if he exists) which inspired Sandow to create the world where the
showdown occurs.

Susan Rajunas

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1980 1342-EDT
From: Dan Hoey at CMU-10A
Subject: Zelazny terraforming

I think the major work in the series is Isle of the Dead, but
there were a few short stories.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Sep 1980  9:06:43 EDT
From: Drew M. Powles <dpowles at BBN-UNIX>

The title of that Zelazny novel that begins in the House of the
Dead is, of course, CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS, which was,
incidentally the novel that started me as a Zelazny.

Drew

[ Thanks also go to <JoSH at RUTGERS> and Steve Zeve
  <CCIS.Zeve at Rutgers> for supplying the title to
  Chip's novel description.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date:  9 Sep 1980 1139-PDT
From: Fanning at SRI-KL
Subject: Name for Novel, Hitchcock's request

The Egyptian-mythology-based Zelazny novel is CREATURES OF LIGHT AND
DARKNESS (novel name only--it may have appeared under other names).
It's interesting in that it represents the furthest extreme it the
direction of pure fantasy that Zelazny came up with until the Amber
series.  Highly recommend it for those who occasionally enjoy those
gods'-eye views ("You think we have it easy here in the Pantheon
-- well, let me tell you.....") which Zelazny has more or less taken
out the copyright on.  This one is clearly NOT science fiction, and
doesn't contain even the mild sops (like "resurrection machines" in
LORD OF LIGHT) Zelazny often throws in for the harder SF audience.

Since I am a sucker for this kind of pseudo-science fantasy, and
since I believe there is an underlying fantasy being tickled and
satisfied by even such hard-science SF as DRAGON'S EGG, I'd like
to propose yet another identification effort for SF-LOVERS:

WHAT ARE THE BASIC FANTASIES THAT SF APPEALS TO?  Can we identify
a small list of them (just as some claim that there are 3, 7, or
13 basic plots for any story)?  Are they different from those in
other genres (I think they are to some extent: fantasies of
godlike omnipotence and omnicompetence seem to fit in SF better
than in Westerns.) Can we come up with non-obvious examples of
novels/stories for these basic fantasies?  Or does it all boil
down to Gershon Legman's general statement that ALL American
literature concerns itself with homosexual bondage and
necrophilia?

Any ideas out there?

------------------------------

Date:  9 Sep 1980 0951-PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: kzinti childrearing

     I seem to recall that in both Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers
it was pointed out that the Kzinti become putty in the hands of
children (I recall an instance where some child jumps on the back of
Chmee, and he purrs).  This would seem to indicate that male kzinti
like children, probably an evolutionary insurance to make sure there
are adult kzinti.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date:  8 Sep 1980 1617-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Thrint --> what

I have the idea, from hints thrown out in some story or another,
that the thrint had devolved into grogs after the ultimate weapon
had killed off all the slave species.  One may assume that the 
weapon killed most but not all thrint, or killed all the male
thrint (which a male thrint might think of as all thrint), etc.

[ The theory that Grogs are a devolved form of Thrint is advanced
  by Garvey in "The Handicapped" (see the collection NEUTRON STAR).
  Garvey is the (someday to be) owner of Garvey Limited, a company
  which supplies aids and works with sentient beings who evolved
  "with minds but with nothing that would serve as hands"
  (eg. cetaceans and bandersnatchi).                      --  RDD ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 SEP 1980 0648-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #73
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 11 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:           SF Books - Plot and Title Query,
                Future - Breakthru Speculations, Space - Colonization
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 0455-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Title for a plot [reply to SFL V2 #71] 

The story Lars.Ericson describes (in which a populace has the ability
to remotely explode its governors' seals of office) sounds like "A
Ticket to Tranai", by Sheckley.  It can be found in the collection
"Citizen in Space".  The exploding seal is only one small aspect of
a typically strange (for Sheckley) society.

------------------------------

Date: 10 September 1980 1253-EDT (Wednesday)
From: wilcox at UTEXAS (forwarded by Lars.Ericson@CMUA)
Subject: SF query

It's not a book, but (as I recall) a short story.  Our intrepid hero
gets 'elected' Mayor (President?) by virtue of willingly accepting the
medallion of office from the incumbent.  He then discovers the problem
of a 'vote of no-confidence'.  As I recall there is also a scene where
he is in a shop talking with the owner when the owner suddenly grabs a
gun, runs to the door, and shoots a passerby. 'Potential criminal', he
explains, 'It is my civic duty to prevent crime whenever possible.'

Couldn't find the story in my collection, unfortunately.  Either my
memory is faulty, or I read it in a borrowed book.

                                   --Jim

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/10/80 07:35:49
Re: LASER as a major technological breakthrough

Yes the LASER is a marvelous tool, but it doesn't qualify as a
"breakthrough" in technology.  The first thing we have to ask
ourselves is, "does this item (LASER in this case) markedly change
what is POSSIBLE.  In the case of the LASER the answer is NO.  In
almost every situation where a LASER is utilized, we could manage
without it (so some things wouldn't be easy or practical, we could
still do them). 

On the other hand, let's look at an item that IS a major technological
feat.  The vacuum tube made electronics possible.  If we had no other
amplifying device, electronics as we know it WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE!

So, let us not confuse significant state-of-the-art advances with
major tech. breakthroughs.

					Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 14:13:55-PDT
From: CSVAX.horowitz at Berkeley

Dear Stan,
     Perhaps according to your economic/social upheaval criteria,
the laser fails to rank.  However, I disagree with your putdown. 
The transistor was invented in the late 1940's, and it's impact to
society wasn't felt until the mid 1960's. Also, many of the original
applications merely replaced existing technologies, such as radio
and TV (much more important in shaping modern society than pocket
calculators). You judge lasers on their deflated destructive merits,
however just as transistors increased the throughput, miniaturization,
and inexpense of computers, so has the laser improved telecommuni-
cations via lightguides. With the advent of efficient fiber optics
and solid state micro-lasers, we may see a copperless as well as
paperless society in the future.
     Another biological advance related to genetic engineering that
you did not mention concerns immortality.  If we conquer the aging
process, how will we ever achieve a steady-state population? This is
another sticky ethical problem akin to bottle-babies and supermen!
     If you're looking for some REAL upheaval, how about the advent
of technologies to enhance our nascent psychic abilities!  The
impact would be proportional to the scope and power of the abilities
unleashed: instant communication without physical devices, knowledge
of the future (with all the paradoxes), psychokinesis as a new energy
source, etc.  Imagine, in the extreme case, a society without privacy,
its members remotely viewing any scene, or reading your thoughts at
will.  Well, I could go on and on with this line of musing, but I've
got to get back to my levitation exercises...

                                       May your biogravitons multiply,
                                                Steven Horowitz

------------------------------

Date: 9 SEP 1980 1615-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL

    You get me wrong. I think lasers are great things.  I even have
a small He/Ne.  But using them for communications will be a little
impractical until they figure out how to repair a broken fiber-optic
line.  And they don't bounce off ionization layers like radio, so
you can't use them over horizons or thru buildings. They are hard to
eavesdrop on, however.  They may cause great changes in the future,
but only, I think, in a supporting role; i.e. as the energy input
for fusion, for instance.

     I like your other suggestions there -- it's more what I'm looking
for.  Of course, I wish (again), that you'd sent it to the newsletter,
but c'est la vie.  Immortals are a good possibility, given cancer
research; it could be discovered accidentally.  Cancer cells are
immortal, in their way, though normal human cells stop fission for
some reason after about 150 goes.  I'm not sure what present research
would lead to psychic amplifiers, though. That may be a little further
off.  Given one, though, we may be around to see the other.  And given
both, we may make it to Alpha Centauri yet.  Stan

------------------------------

Date: 09 SEP 1980 1122-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: It can't be THAT easy to criticize

[ Our earlier discussion on space colonization was interrupted
  by NorEasCon II. This message is a reply to a message from
  Richard Stallman in [SFL V2 #60] which asserted: "It can't be
  THAT easy to criticize...If a flaw in space colonization plans
  were THAT obvious, people would not be taking them seriously."
                                                          -- RDD ]

In blunt fact, it can; everybody has a set of prejudices which blind
them to faulty reasoning in certain areas.  The spacies have their
dreams, the eco-freaks have their dreams, the so-called
Right-to-Lifers have their dreams --- and in each case the assumptions
the dreams are founded on are unquestioned.  Selective blindness is
endemic --- try looking at Brunner's THE STONE THAT NEVER CAME DOWN,
which is a less-biased discussion of what would happen if the ability
of people to ignore facts was removed (the results are startling, even
if you feel that Brunner is overoptimistic.  Of course, it depends on
what you define as "facts" --- but when few are available I'm wary of
touted panaceas.)

  In the case at hand, a particularly vocal exponent of a view
opposing my own (I won't say "an opponent", since the wight in
question is not a participant in SF-Lovers and probably wouldn't
recognize me or my name) has shown himself incapable of applying the
scientific method to his own prejudices, especially his prejudices
about people. (See back issues of MYTHOLOGIES, a local fanzine, for
extensive details; I won't talk here about his behavior when he found
himself bested in fair debate because I don't have absolute evidence
for some of the incredible but believable allegations.)  I have no
evidence that his reasoning capabilities are generally defective when
he is sober; in fact, he seems a bit more stable than a less-well-
known character who commonly refers to his opponents as "peasants
with torches" regardless of the merit of their arguments. Nor do I
deny that there are similarly irrational people on the "other side"
of the question.  They simply share the world's disease.

  I use the term "the world's disease" advisedly. Look at Sturgeon's
essay at the back of VENUS PLUS X, in which he quotes a survey in
which 64(?)% of the people polled said it was true that all men
were equal, but only 4% would acknowledge that blacks were the
equals of whites.  I doubt that the remaining 60(?)% would claim
to see more resemblance between blacks and apes than between blacks
and (putatively human) whites; they were merely discarding evidence
that didn't fit into their world model. (This is also effectively
dramatized in a flashback in ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST (the
book, not the movie).)  The talent for self-delusion is similarly
described by Damon Knight in HELL'S PAVEMENT ("If I, officiating
at High Services, were to stick my tongue out at the [holy symbol],
half of the people wouldn't begin to believe their eyes, and if any
in the other half spoke up it would be him taken for a demon and not
me", someone writes in his diary (very loose quote).) I don't pretend
to exclusive knowledge; in fact, reading SFLovers has frequently been
eye-opening. It is those who refuse to listen, who deafly mock those
who disagree with them, who are most likely to be wrong.

Addressing your specific ideas:

1. How many is "more than one might think"? Is it as many as 20
   million in 14 years (which is less than the population growth
   in the US alone)? And HOW WILL THEY GET UP THERE? To repeat an
   earlier contention, what propulsive system in the conceivable
   future will get a significant number of people off the earth
   without consuming all of the energy available, of which we are
   already short?  Theoretically, to teleport somebody to lunar
   orbit would take around 4 x 10^6 btu's in the change in potential
   energy, which is trivial next to current consumption of 10's of
   quadrillions of btu's--but given the recent discussion here, how
   many take teleportation seriously as a near-term opportunity?

2. Prosperity from space is a hypothetical, and the reduction of
   birthrate is equally hypothetical (given the above figures, the
   fact that the experience of the last countries to industrialize
   is severely unlikely to be like that of the first countries, and
   the time it would take that we don't have) leaving an extremely
   frail reed to lean on. Right now, when someone promises me wealth
   and health from space I feel like the Feiffer cartoon: "I am a
   technician/I design the new cars/I planned New York City's power
   system/.../Soon I will build a nuclear reactor near your home
   town/Trust me." Looked at realistically rather than optimistically,
   are the payoffs really there? Recall my analogy of two weeks back:
   when you treat such auxiliaries to Murphy's Law as "Do not depend
   on miracles; rely on them" as humorous, they're funny; when you
   start believing in them seriously they are tragic.

  Instances of such blindness (whether willful or not) are constantly
available to anyone following current events. I was almost as much
amused as appalled recently to read in the letter column of CHEMICAL
AND ENGINEERING NEWS somebody's claim that a "limited nuclear war"
had already been fought and won (in response to the uproar following
the contention that it would be possible to fight a limited nuclear
war at all); the writer's example was World War II, which fails the
test (at least to my inspection) because only one side had nuclear
weapons. (The letter got a torrent of response; I sometimes wonder
which mundane editors follow the common SF fan editors' practice of
including really off-the-wall letters whenever the general written
response begins to flag.)

  For a really good example of how people can ignore evidence that
doesn't fit their case, read L. Neil Smith's Libertarian novel, THE
PROBABILITY BROACH. He ignores huge chunks of history, including the
probability that Britain, which regarded the 1783 peace as anything
but final, would have destroyed the American steel industry by
flooding it with imports had there not been tariffs; the small
portion of pure science (as opposed to technology) that has not been
done under patronage of the wealthy (individuals or government); and
the difficulty of maintaining not two but three metals in a constant
value relationship to each other.  It's a good read if you jump over
tracts of 5-10 pages and concentrate on the adventure and gadgets,
but infuriating in its smug self-righteousness.

------------------------------

Date: 5 September 1980 03:16-EDT
From: Richard M. Stallman <RMS at MIT-AI>
Subject: It can't be THAT easy to criticize

I don't think that I should send SF-LOVERS a detailed discussion
of whether SPS would work or would be desirable. But I do want to
repeat that anyone who would like to argue against SPS should find
out what, in fact, the proponents of it are actually saying, by
reading "Doomsday Has Been Cancelled" and Heppenheimer's book.
There may be some reasonable argument to make against what they
say.  But you must direct your arguments against their specific
proposals, not vague guesses about them.  This cannot be
reasonable, even if BY COINCIDENCE you are right.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 SEP 1980 0724-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #74
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 12 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:          Alien Intelligence - Nobody there?,
                Future- Breakthru Speculations, Basic Fantasies of SF,
                 Known Space Anomalies, SF Books - Breakaway Station,
                         SF Movies - Battle Beyond the Stars
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 September 1980 0141-EDT (Friday)
From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01)
Subject: Galactic Loneliness

Recently, I read an article that reported on a school of thought
that holds that humankind is probably the only intelligent race in
the Galaxy.  There was apparently a recent conference with this as
its thesis.  Unfortunately, I do not recall where I read the article,
nor do I recall the names of any of the scientists who were reported
to espouse this point of view. Can anyone out there fill me in?

     The article reported that one major argument advanced by this
school is that if there were a large number of intelligent races
about, then a non-negligible fraction of them could be expected
to be sufficiently advanced technologically that several would
have contacted us or have become apparent to us by now.  I find
that particular argument rather weak, and can't believe that it
convinces too many people.  Does anyone know if these folks have
something more substantial up their sleeves?

--Paul Hilfinger

------------------------------

Date: 09/10/80 1444-EDT
From: FOCUS at LL
Subject: An interesting reference on Technological Breakthroughs

The latest issue of IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics
Engineers) Spectrum is a special edition entitled

   They Said It Couldn't Be Done.....
      and it hasn't been, at least not yet. A study of 11 wanted
      projects requiring technical, economic, or institutional
      breakthroughs before fruition is possible.

The 11 cited areas, each the subject of a separate article, are as
follows:

 1. The 'no-downtime' computer...
      Superreliable computers are on NASA's drawing board now.
 2. An electronic advisor/companion...
      Computers able to function as personal consultants are sought.
 3. The global video conference...
      User acceptance and cost block broad use of video conferencing.
 4. The technologist's own 'supercomputer'...
      Information, computation, and simulation capabilities will rise.
 5. The blue-collar robot...
      The machine shop and the assembly line will be beneficiaries
      of robotics
 6. Superconduction power cables...
      Both technological push and demand pull are needed to spur
      progress
 7. Magnetohydrodynamic power...
      The road to an operational magnetohydrodynamic power
      plant is paved with formidable engineering obstacles.
 8. A computer center for the homeowner...
      Information data banks are a key to 'intelligent' home
      terminals.
 9. An electric car in every garage...
      This optimistic goal is far off; progress hinges on
      high-performance batteries.
10. 'Collision-proof' airspace...
      Reducing the risk of midair collisions is the goal of an
      air-traffic control system proposed by the FAA.
11. An electronic 'human eye'...
      Artificial vision based on stimulating the visual cortex
      of the brain is still far in the future.

------------------------------

BATALI@MIT-AI 09/10/80 08:29:01

My neurophysiology instructor had three suggestions for why sleep is
necessary:

   1) For collecting and organizing the new information of the day;
   2) To replenish some chemical or other;
   3) It's better than being scared all night long.

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 09/10/80 12:59:08 Re: How necessary is sleep?

There are various studies which show that people adopt radically
different sleep patterns when they are removed from their normal
environments.  For example, deep in a mine shaft with no daylight,
the subject(s) of one study were awake for 36 hours and then asleep
for 12.

There is also a wide variety in the amount of sleep each individual
requires.  I need 8-9 hrs, a certain local and frenetic professor runs
on 4 per night, and I had a friend in college who got about 4-5 every
two nights.  I also had a roommate who was happiest if he never woke
up.  (He would literally spend sixteen hours in bed on weekend days.)

Physiological factors are also important.  I hear that people in
excellent condition (long distance runners for example) tend to
require far less sleep than other humans.

The presence of all this variance bothers me. Maybe there really is
a 3:1 ratio in the physiological need for sleep, but then again, it
could be that sleep habits are largely a matter of conditioning. It
seems possible that we have all been taught (by our society, by our
parents, etc.) to take, and then to physically need 8 hours of sleep
per night in order to function.  (If this is true, we have all been
robbed in a very serious fashion.)  The opportunity for conditioning
is certainly there. The question is if there is any way to test this
hypothesis?
                Dan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 (Wednesday) 0901-PST
From: HIRGELT at LLL-MFE
Subject: Survival Functions of Sleep

In my undergrad days (> 10 years ago, however) I worked as a faculty
aid for some sleep researchers at Ohio State.  I remember reading a
journal article about the function of sleep.  The premise was that
dreaming is necessary as the reprogramming, batch processing phase
of our minds.  Studies were done of dream deprivations as opposed
to sleep deprivation that resulted in the same symptoms for a dream
deprived subject as a sleep deprived subject. These included paranoia
among other things (I can't remember).

It seems that dreaming is the critical factor. There are lots of
other studies about dreams and our need for them.

Ed

------------------------------

Date: 11 SEP 1980 1520-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Technologies and breakthroughs

In [SFL V2 #72], the question arose concerning the removal of the need
to sleep as a breakthrough technology.  the specific question was, was
there any evidence as to how sleep affects the transfer of software to
firmware.  (Paraphrased).

While my knowledge of physiological psychology is slightly outdated
and the notes and books I should be referancing are all buried in
boxes in my attic, I will attempt to address the question.

Defining software to mean that which is short term memory and firmware
as being much of what is in long term memory, the answer seems to be
that sleep is necessary to the proper conversion of short to long term
memory.

The evidence arises from studies done on LSD trips, sleep deprivation
and various forms of psychoses.  All three of these areas have two
things in common - impaired memories of recent events (or at least
extremely strange views in the case of the psychoses) and evidence
of serotonin imbalances in the brain biochemistry.  Serotonin is a
necessary chemical in the sleep cycle (not to mention in other areas)
and, if I recall what I was taught quite a few years ago now - I
apologize if my memory is false and if there are those who know out
there a refresher would be appreciated - it (seratonin) is in fact
one of the neuro-transmitters in the brain.

Now, if software is the new pathways of neurons firing in the brain
and firmware is a more worn (more familiar, so to speak) pathway
(line of least resistance, if you will), and my memory about
Serotonin is correct, it would seem reasonable that dreams (that
which seems to be the important part of sleep) are the non random
firing of neurons, forging and familiarizing new pathways.

As a practical experiment, undergo sleep deprivation for several
days and then try and remember what you really did, wrote, etc.

As for sleep being necessary to handle "Garbage".  Define Garbage.

One thing I do not recall which might be worth researching to further
address the question (or someone may know the answer) is Do people
with good memories (e.g. better than average, photgraphic, eidetic,
etc) have more or more vivid dreams?  Does this group of people have
better memories of their dreams?

gail (gfh@CCA)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 1003-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: Various

According to at least one theory I've heard, we sleep precisely
because it's dangerous out there at night. Better to tuck yourself
away in a hole all night than wander around.  A pre-technological
human (no fire, no weapons, etc.) is pretty vulnerable blundering
around in the dark.  I believe this theory is discussed by Sagan
in "The Dragons of Eden". As I recall, the "overnight brain garbage
collection" theory is not as popular as it once was.  Some people
get by with no sleep at all, for example; perhaps they never cons?

The query about "basic fantasies" recalls Bester's story "5,271,009".
It tears the fig leaf off of several of the more blatant adolescent
fantasies disguised as SF plots.  Very amusing story.

        Dave

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 (Wednesday) 1630-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE

I seem to recall that the Kzinti "Speaker to Animals" liked to be
scratched behind the ears, but did not like to be called "cute".

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 at 2031-CDT
From: Dewey Henize (via HJJH at UTEXAS)

It may not be completely germane to the Donavan discussion, but a good
story with an interesting interface with such an organic controller is
"We All Died at Breakaway Station", I think by Simak (never remember
authors names - makes book purchases more interesting.)

Dewey

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1980 21:09:46-PDT
From: nelson (via menlo70!daul at Berkeley)
Subject: Battle Beyond the Stars

   The critics say "It's not as bad as you'd think it would be",
but who listens to critics?  It's bad, so bad that it should
become popular for being 'camp'.
   The plot is thin and stupid, the acting and dialogue insipid.
Robert Vaughan does excellent Mt. Rushmore imitations; the close-ups
give us good views up his nose, and show the pores of his skin so
well that you might think you were looking at sandstone. John Boy
still acts like a hick, and the movie supplies the usual sex objects
(liberated for the modern screen by the addition of intelligence).
   The special effects are what we've come to expect, and OK in
places. The music is awful, an imitation of Star Wars of course.
In many ways the film makes cheap attempts to imitate.
   But now for the good part. 'Battle' suceeds best in imitating not
Star Wars, but 'Queen of Outer Space', Zsa Zsa's Saturday afternoon
Creature Feature favorite!  The audience loved it, and so did I. It
is so bad that it transcends being junk.

Go see it in a drive-in and get really twisted for this one.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 SEP 1980 1220-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #75
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 13 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 75

  Today's Topics:   SFL Calendar Feature, Basic Fantasies of SF,
                 Future Breakthrus - No-downtime Computer & No Sleep
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 14:51 PDT
From: Richard R. Brodie <Brodie at PARC-MAXC>
Subject: SF-Lovers event calendar

I have agreed to maintain a calendar of upcoming events of interest
to SF-Lovers.  I expect that almost all of these events will be
conventions; however, since there are many members of various con
committees in our membership, we should be able to provide more
information of personal interest to ourselves than do Locus,
Starlog, Asimov's, etc.

To this end, I ask those of you who are involved in the planning
of events you think would interest SF-Lovers to send me whatever
information you think is appropriate. I will keep a chronological
list and send out highlights periodically to the membership.

In addition to its obvious function, the SF-Lovers Calendar will
give us an opportunity to plan in advance for more of the highly
successful parties we have had at previous conventions.

If you have any ideas about the Calendar, please feel free to
share them with me by sending mail to Brodie@PARC-MAXC.

        Richard Brodie

------------------------------

Date: 12 SEP 1980 1235-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: basic fantasies

  In HARVARD magazine a couple of years back, somebody wrote about
identifying in STAR WARS several of the \hundreds/ of elements that
have been systematically abstracted and numbered from traditional
fantasies (e.g., "fairy tales").

------------------------------

Date: 10 SEP 1980 1316-EDT
From: DGSHAP at MIT-AI (Daniel G. Shapiro, via Fanning at SRI-KL)

I would say that one theme (fantasy?) is the concept of the great
human destiny (manifest destiny might be too strong a phrase).
It might be a theme that relates more to the domain of selling
literature than to sf/fantasy, but the concept underlies almost
all of sf.  The entire genre is built of stories where humans
accomplish ever larger and greater things. It is extraordinarily
rare to find a book where humans are losing at very turn.
(exception: all recent Brunner).

Possibly the grandeur of sf/fantasy appeals to a form of immortality
urge in the readers. I.e., that we are all connected to the events
being described, or in more physical terms, our descendents will
live to see the day that X (in the book) comes to pass.
        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1980 2300-PDT
From: Fanning at SRI-KL

I liked what you picked as an under-fantasy for much SF. I tend to
think in too cynical channels, and your comments sort of swept me
back to the days when I found a Pocketbook (that's the trademarked
name, not the generic) called NEW TALES OF SPACE AND TIME on the
racks in our local 5&10, plunked down my 35 cents, and got COMPLETELY
blown away on SF. Talk about sense of wonder, talk about the Golden
Age--! It seems to me that what blew me away at the age of 11 was
precisely what you were talking about. Since then I've forgiven a
lot of wretched writing (even E. E. Smith) if the SF only tickled
that continuity/immortality fantasy.

I wonder if kids growing up under the Cold War/Civil Defense
Alerts/Tips for When the Bomb Falls pall were particularly
susceptible to this SF promise that THERE WOULD BE A FUTURE,
even if the future wasn't necessarily pretty.

Since receiving your msg, I have recalled a Bester short story
which bears on the topic of underlying fantasies.  Bester's
protagonist is crazy, and his fantasies take the form of trite
science-fiction plots.  In each situation, he is beset by some
stock dilemma which he eventually overcomes by virtue of "a
strange mutant strain" which allows him to triumph over the
figure in his fantasy who represents the shrink trying to
cure him.  A large number such as 5,207,691 or close to it
also figures in this.  Damned if I can remember the title,
but if you're interested in underlying fantasies, this story
sure tells what Bester thought they are. It's also hilarious.

Thanks
Tony

PS Can anyone name that plot? --- Tony

[ This is the same short story that was mentioned by P. David
  Lebling <PDL at DM> in Friday's digest: 5,271,009.  One of
  Bester's best known stories, it has also been adapted for
  the CBS Radio Mystery Theater.                      --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 11:13 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Technological Breakthroughs:
         The 'no-downtime' computer and sleep

I haven't read the IEEE issue on "it hasn't been done" yet, but a
suitably connected bunch of computers at least one of which is always
up is as good as a 'no-downtime' computer.  For example, Tymshare's
network supervisor is really four (the last I knew) machines, with
three of them waiting in the wings just poised to take over the net
if the primary one goes down.  Also the last I knew all four had
NEVER been down at once since the net was activated multi-years ago.

Are there actually people or animals that never sleep? I had a friend
who once claimed to get along on three hours of sleep a night, but he
spent hours a day "meditating".....  And while we're on the subject,
does anybody know why some people are "night people" and others "day
people"?  That seems to be contrary to the "it's safe asleep in the
cave at night theory".

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 1118-PDT
From: Stevan Milunovic <Milunovic at SRI-KL>

I recall reading about the causes of sleep in a Scientific American
article which appeared a few years ago. A substance (called Substance
S for lack of a better term at the time) is apparently secreted by
the reptilian complex of the brain and this causes the cortex to go
"numb", inhibiting motor responses to protect the body while the
conscious mind is temporarily not functioning.  Stimulant drugs like
amphetamines or caines act to inhibit the action or secretion of this
substance to keep one awake. I know of no widely accepted reasons for
sleep now that we are the hunters rather than the hunted; i.e. there
is no evidence that the brain activities occuring during sleep
couldn't be performed as background tasks while awake.  Sleep can
therefore be considered a vestige of our reptilian heritage when it
was necessary to sleep for basic survival.  Most species of sharks do
not sleep, but this can also be attributed to the fact that they must
move constantly to pass water thru their gills for breathing, rather
than that they do not have many enemies so don't have to sleep for
protection. -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 0933-PDT
From: Yeager at SUMEX-AIM

A note on sleep: Nova had a show 2 or 3 years ago on sleep.  The most
interesting observation for me was that there are people who never
sleep, and are none the worse for it.  The amount of sleep required
appears to have a genetic factor and one British couple, both of whom
did not sleep, had a child, and guess what!!! You guessed it. Imagine
having a baby that NEVER slept.

A humorous side note is that one fellow would hold a spoon in his hand
and "drop off" to sleep.  When it hit the floor he awakened, and that
was about all he required two or three times in a 24 hour cycle!

This is making me very...yawn...zzzzzzz

Bill.

------------------------------

Date: 12 SEP 1980 1215-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: need for sleep

  The classic tests on this subject were done something like 25 years
ago, and became sufficiently well known that by the late 60's they
were turning up (in cut-down versions with animal subjects) in high
school science fairs.
  The test was fairly simple: a sensor was rigged to detect Rapid Eye
Movements (characteristic of the deepest (fourth) level of sleep and
generally simultaneous with dreams) and attached to various devices to
wake up the sleeper whenever REM began. Other than this, the subjects
were allowed to have whatever they considered a normal sleep period.
Within a few days the number of attempted REM periods went from ~4 to
>20 and the subjects were reported as becoming extremely irritable.
John Brunner wrote a story around this idea in one of the SPECTRUM
anthologies (about what happened when someone didn't react with
irritation and what happened when they stopped preventing him from
dreaming) and has brought up the idea intermittently since then,
particularly in THE STONE THAT NEVER CAME DOWN.
  Unfortunately, no one at the time thought to do the obvious
control of waking people at completely random intervals, beginning
with ~4/night and working up to >20 per night; when this was done
the behavioral results (to the extent that behavior can be quantified
and compared) were reported as being basically the same as in the REM
experiments.  At about this time, however, it had been found that for
many people 2 3-hour periods of sleep separated by a short period of
activity were as effective as one 8-hour period.
  It seems that regularity is as important a factor as duration in
measuring the value of sleep. The one person I know who consistently
gets by on ~5 hours seems to take basically the same 5 hours
(0300-0800) every day, both at slack periods and during SF
conventions.  (He may be helped by the fact that he's basically a
very tranquil type, though there is Shapiro's example of the frenetic
type who survives on 4 hours.  There are a number of cases of non-
circadian patterns being adopted for various reasons; I have only
apocryphal information on the person who allegedly converted his week
to 6 28-hour days (his sleep period cycled completely around the day
every week) but Frederik Pohl in his autobiography describes deciding
that he just didn't have enough time for writing and going on a
48-hour "day", thus getting both time to deal with mundanes during
their active periods and quiet periods in which to write undisturbed.
  There are also some developments which I've just seen the first
glimmerings of; it seems that researchers have pinned down two nuclei
in the hypothalamus as being potentially responsible for circadian
rhythms (specific hormone release cycles corresponding to activity
cycles have been found). I've gone through so many magazines in the
post-Noreascon catchup that I've no certainty of where I found this
or who was involved; has anyone seen any more detailed information?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 1824-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand) <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Sleep, garbage collection, and the brain

In Gail's (gfh@CCA) reply to mumble's comment on sleep as a time for
garbage collection in the brain, she asked "What is garbage?".  I
think she was implying, and I agree, that in an intelligent memory
system, there is no garbage, just information of varying amounts of
usefulness.

This brings to mind a story told at the recent 1980 Lisp Conference
at Stanford by JONL @ MIT-AI (Jon L White).  Since I am not sure if
JONL is one of us SFLs I will try to retell it.

JONL's paper was on using HUGE memories to allow GC to be put off for
long periods of time (once a year maybe), but he pointed out that in
many Artificial Intelligence applications data bases only GROW, they
don't shrink. He told about the Russian Encyclopedia. Apparently he
worked at one point for the Library of Congress which has a copy of
(everything including) the Russian Encyclopedia. At one point after
his death Kruschev was in the process of being vilified (just one
step above nonpersonness). The library got a letter from the Soviets
requesting that pages N through M of the encyclopedia were to be
removed and replaced with certain other supplied text. Well the
library certainly didn't want to remove the old version, so they
just added the new version, and the letter requesting the
replacement, to the encyclopedia before the old version.

What is garbage?
                                - Craig

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 SEP 1980 0755-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #76
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 14 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 76

Today's Topics: X-Ray Laser Bibliography Query, Known Space Anomalies,
                     SF Books - Witch World & Breakaway Station,
               Basic Fantasies of SF, The Probability Broach - 2 views
----------------------------------------------------------------------

OTA@MIT-MC 09/11/80 03:47:35 Re: X-Ray Laser reference request

I have a friend who is working on a PhD on X-Ray Lasers.  He is
interested in finding references on the use of X-Ray Lasers in SF
stories.  So far he has two:

The meteor defense system of the Ringworld

and, the hand guns used in The Mote in God's Eye.

Can anyone think of any others?  In particular, interesting
applications are being looked for.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 18:42 PDT
From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "Your cute" (DWS@LLL-MFE [SFL V2 #74])

You are quite right!. "Speaker to Animals" was introduced to Louie
Wu's birthday party (at the beginning of Ringworld), and became
acceptable as a member of the party when he accepted Louis
suggestion, couched very carefully to assure that Speaker did not
take offense, that he . . . (the following is an interpretation of
what must have followed next in the conversation, since Larry very
cleverly left things with the elipsis above and then went on to
write the next scene) let his ears be scratched by others attending
the party, the philosophy being that he would thus appear much less
formidable and more like a big "pussy cat."  Speaker apparently
agreed to this, since the next scene in the book finds him very
contentedly relaxing with two lovely ladies on either side of him,
one to an ear.  However, when Teela Brown says he's cute at the
same party, he reacts very negatively.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 11:13 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC

There is a brand new Witch World out, whose name I have forgotten,
I think it is something like "Lore of the Witch World".

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 12 SEP 1980 1150-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION

WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION was by Richard Meredith, the late,
lamented, intelligent libertarian who also wrote THE SKY IS FULL OF
SHIPS; RUN, COME SEE JERUSALEM; AT THE NARROW PASSAGE; NO BROTHER,
NO FRIEND; and others. Not one of the best writers, but consistently
capable and occasionally thought-provoking; generally very
pessimistic in tone.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1980 2112-MDT
From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ)
Subject: Breakaway Station

"We All Died at Breakaway Station" was written by Richard C. Meredith.

As Dewey Henize mentioned, [V2 #74] one of the main characters was
a disembodied brain, or rather a person who had lost his human body
in warfare, and was re-fitted with a spaceship or space station to
control. (My memory is not completely clear on the details.) Extensive
use was made throughout the story of highly developed prosthetic and
electronic implant technology, as well as "cold sleep" (hibernation)
for transporting injured people.

The technology was not really a main focus of the story, however. The
narrative desribes a group of people in a supporting role in a rather
desparate survival-type interstellar war between humans and an alien
species. "Breakaway Station" is a medical, communications, and supply
facility which accidentally achieves an important role.

Warning: "Breakaway Station" is a strong and vivid book about people
at the limits of stress, and as such, can be quite stressful to read.

*----------------*

Side Issue, intended to provoke further discussion:

I remember very little of the plot of "Breakaway Station" which
\vitally/ \depended/ on the medical or spaceflight technology for
motivation of the personal interactions of the people portrayed.
(Okay, so the disembodied starship pilot is an extreme case...)
It seems to me that the same general situation could have been
set up under other, non-SF, circumstances, such as an aircraft
carrier in the South Pacific during WW-2.  Many of the same
conditions of technological warfare: bodily damage, difficult
(long-range) communications and logistics, etc. would apply, and
the psychological reactions could be similar, although occurring
in a different cultural setting.  It seems to me that "What If"s
in the medical and interstellar technologies were in a separate
layer of the novel from the issues of warfare and personal
interaction while under stress.

The issue I want to raise is:

    What themes can be dealt with in SF, that are not mappable to
    historical fiction, fairy tales, "westerns", "war stories", etc.

The mapping consists of being able to imagine a similar story where
similar characters and actions would be motivated by circumstances
acceptable to the particular genre.

Several possibilities come to mind:

- "rivets" stories where the primary topic is a hypothetical
  engineering or technological idea which can only be developed in
  a future setting requiring extensions of our present technology,
  and where the people in the story are not strongly characterized
  and exist to operate and explain the technological goings-on to
  each other while we (the readers) listen.

- "soft rivets" stories which are primarily concerned with the
  "What If"s of peoples lives in an environment based on a
  different technology, such as space colonies.

- "time travel/paradox" stories. (Some overlap with fairy tales,
  fantasy.)

- "alien culture" stories, which explore the limits of what it is
  to live a life truly different from ours (not just green skin),
  or of interactions of a culture similar to ours with an alien one.
  Involved are issues of what gives a life meaning and what gives a
  culture stable existence.

I keep having the feeling that if a writer managed to space out far
enough to imagine a culture \truly/ different from ours and novelize
it, the story would be totally incomprehensible to us. (Seemingly
random actions.)

-Russ Fish (FISH@UTAH-20)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1980 0923-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Libertarian prejudices in PROBABILITY BROACH

     While I totally agree with Hitchcock's basic premise about how
all of us have blinders, the example of Smith's libertarian ones
misses the boat quite thoroughly, and introduces a favorite flame
topic of mine: SF people still feel that screwing up social-science
facts and theories is less offensive than screwing up hard-science
facts and theories.
     It certainly is true that Britain considered the 1783 peace
as nonfinal. It is not true that the political leadership had the
wherewithal to "destroy the American steel industry by flooding it
with imports," any more than they could have flown zeppelins across
the ocean and bombed it to the same effect.
     Political authorities didn't have the necessary degree of
positive control over their own economies to tell their merchants
where the trade had to go, much less what to charge.  Mercantile
policies could tell people where they couldn't go, and could
certainly set up local monopolies by restraining competition, but
the degree of positive control that would permit trade to be used
as a weapon in the way Hitchcock suggests, just wasn't there.
Basically, it hadn't been invented as a political-economic weapon.
Sure, some British trade would have gotten in, but in the absence
of shipping costs, even the fledgling metals industry, unhampered
by its own controls, and unprotected by tariffs, would have
survived quite nicely.  The \fact/ is that while tariffs can have
the desired short-term goal (protection), the long-term effect is
necessarily an inefficient market, with all that that implies.
     But, of course, this just proves Hitchcock's basic point: even
traditional liberals and conservatives have blinders that permit
them to "ignore evidence that doesn't fit their case."

                Mike

P.S. In a libertarian society like Smith's, the government
     wouldn't even attempt to maintain "three metals in a
     constant value relationship to each other."  The market
     would determine the relationship, and you can be sure it
     wouldn't be constant.

------------------------------

Date: 12 SEP 1980 1420-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Libertarian [prejudices] in THE PROBABILITY BROACH

  I think we are in agreement at least on what we object to; I'm just
claiming that Smith managed to screw up both his social "science" and
the interface between the social and the hard sciences.

  It is arguably true that the British \government/ did not have,
in and of itself, the power to destroy the nascent American steel
industry (although I have no evidence that they could not/would not
have subsidized exports the way many countries now do). I have been
told, however, that it is a matter of record that the British steel
industry was sufficiently far ahead of the American steel industry
(at one point, the absolutely worst quality of steel rails was
"American" grade) that it could deliver steel to useful points within
the US at a lower price than American steel manufacturers could (owing
at least partly to the fact that Bessemer was being knighted when the
locals were still snickering at his American counterpart).  In the
absence of reliable citations I won't carry that part of the argument
further. I never said that I supported tariffs in general, and happily
acknowledge that in the absence of contrary factors (such as the
subsidies the Japanese are currently alleged to apply to most exports)
tariffs are basically useless \given/ the ability of people to move as
freely from country to country as they now can within a country when
the economic balance between regions shifts (a rather large given).
  There is in fact substantial question as to who was controlling
whom in Britain at that time; let's finesse the question by saying
that there was a great deal of cooperation between the government
and mercantile interests---witness the British East India "Company".
My major point was that there simply was NO WAY that America could
have come out of a Gallatinite revolt as well as it did; there are
too many factors that were arrayed against the new country. I also
think Smith both over- and underestimates people in several places,
but the arguing of these differences via the net would probably take
more time and space than they are worth.
  As for the matter of keeping three metals in synchronization ---
how many kinds of chaos would there be if there were no constant
relationship between the penny, the dime, and the dollar, and no
other way of providing multiples or fractions of a given size of
money?  I contend that the setup of the story \assumes/ that gold,
silver, and copper pieces maintain constant values relative to each
other; since coinage is simply an option for whoever discovers
minerals it would be trivial for speculators to play hob with the
exchange rates.
  And here's a real unanswerable: if technological progress in that
alternate world was so far ahead of ours, why wasn't transmutation of
elements available to destroy the bulk of the worth of all precious
metals?  Heinlein was willing to accept that as a given for 2000 from
1957 our time (see THE DOOR INTO SUMMER). (I could be nasty and say
that the real answer is that it would ruin the story.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 SEP 1980 0358-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #77
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 15 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 77

 Today's Topics: Charlie and Algernon, SF Movies - Videodiscs and FX,
                   Future Breakthrus - Biotech & No sleep & Lasers,
                                Basic Fantasies of SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1980 1535-EDT
From: PAIGE.ZEVE at RUTGERS
Subject: Flowers for Algernon

Flowers for Algernon has now been made into a musical, opening in NY
either soon or just has.  The show is called "Charlie and Algernon".
The commercials make it sound like trash to me, but I am with-holding
final judgement.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date:  14 September 1980 14:31 edt
From:  Frankston at MIT-Multics (BOB at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Video Disks

Now that video disks are standard consumer items (the Panasonic one is
for sale locally for $749) what is going to be the effect on special
effects? Wherein it used to be easy to "slip something by", the video
disks have a very good single frame technology.

------------------------------

Date:  14 September 1980 16:14 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Technology that Will Change Us

Some of us have been looking for the next technological break-
through that will cause as much or more upheaval as the transistor.
I submit that our biological technology will soon offer great control
over human thought and behavior, and this will come before genetic
tailoring of humans.  Mind you, I know nothing of this, so any
biologists out there should correct me.

My head hurts trying to think of what it means to my "sense of
personal continuity/integrity" if I can more or less dictate my
emotional state. I hurt even worse when I think of this control
being in other people's hands (over me).

This has been in quite a few stories. Stanislaw Lem's "Futurological
Congress", Ira Levin's "This Perfect Day", Lucas's "THX1138", I
suppose that "soma" is a big enough piece of "Brave New World" to
count here, too.

I suppose that non-drug technologies are pretty interesting, too.
By which I mean some extension of TM/?biofeedback?/Zen, such that
in not too much time and effort you can learn to do interesting
things to your consciousness reliably.  The effect is the same as
powerful drugs, just a little more under your personal control.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1980 7:57 pm PDT (Sunday)
From: guest at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Sleep, lack of it

Addendum to Yeager@SUMEX's message: I also recall the Nova program
of a few years ago, and was going to mention it if no one else did.
In answer to the inevitable question, yes, it was actually verified
that these people never slept at all by having researchers take
shifts accompanying them for a period of some weeks. The researchers
had actually found several people who got by on anywhere from zero
to fifteen minutes of sleep a day.  One woman who was interviewed
was asked if she ever regretted not sleeping, and if she had trouble
finding things to do with all that extra time. She replied that sleep
seemed a waste of time, and felt sorry for people who have to spend a
third of their lives unconscious. 
        -Randy

------------------------------

Date: 13 September 1980 17:29-EDT
From: Daniel L. Weinreb <dlw at MIT-AI>
Subject: Sleep, Nova show about

An amusing thing I remember from the aforementioned Nova show about
sleep: A sleep researcher was asked "What is the purpose of sleep?"
He replied that at the present time, he could not answer that
question any more readily than he could answer the question "What
is the purpose of wakefulness?".

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1980 1338-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Why sleep 

I think this entire discussion of why we sleep has been a little one
sided.  We keep trying to figure out why we would (evolutionarily)
take time out from our valuable waking hours for something as mundane
as sleep.

Perhaps the waking state is just a utility (food, shelter, and mate
finding time) to support the all important sleep phase.

[I hope this is taken with a grain of seriousness, I am one of those
 who think that altered states of consciousness (dreams, orgasm,
 meditational visions, drug highs) may well be THE point of existence
 for a consciousness. But then, I also think that the pleasure center
 of the brain is the seat of consciousness ...]

                                - Craig@LotusLand

------------------------------

Date:  13 September 1980 01:04 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  sleep and lasers

I do my most creative and globally productive work in my sleep!
The entire concept of forests (as opposed to trees) was probably
invented in someone's sleep 500,000 years ago or something.

Breakthroughs are kind of strange.  People could have come up with
calculus and Newtonian (and possibly Einsteinian) mechanics without
the telescope.  But the telescope provided a renewed interest in
astronomy and by providing additional clues (phases of Venus, moons
of Jupiter) sped up its development.

The laser works a lot like that.  Planet and star positions had been
measured for thousands of years with astrolabes or sets of sticks but
it took a breakthrough to put things together.  The laser has advanced
surgery and optics, is used in manufacturing and will probably have an
impact on communications and energy production.  It may even provide
the next generation of computers which will make Josephson junction or
GaAs semiconductors look slow.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 09/14/80 12:15:09 Re: What is SF?

I don't think it is possible to say that a book is or is not SF.  To
me, SF is fiction in which "Science" takes a part.  The only problem
with that definition is the the definition of "science" changes with
context.  SF set in the 19th century (ie. Verne) could be classified
as ordinary adventure stories, but is there anyone here who doesn't
think that Jules Verne falls into the SF catagory?

                                        Brian lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1980 7:41 am PDT (Sunday)
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Manifest Destiny fantasy [DGSHAP: SFL V2 #75]

For a good story based on the assumption that most other intelligent
races are better than humans (not just technologically, but ethically,
morally, etc.), see "The Earth Quarter" by Damon Knight.  It can be
found in the collection "Rule Golden and Other Stories".

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1980 1204-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: basic themes of sf

James Blish discussed this mapping of sf stories into other kinds
somewhere in "Issues At Hand". He called it the "smeerp" method:
you call a rabbit a smeerp, put it on Mars, and presto it's science
fiction.
    I don't know if I would call the alien culture story an exclusive
preserve of sf. As Philip Farmer pointed out at one of the Worldcon's
panels, you can meet a dozen aliens by walking down the streets of
your town.  The bestseller "Shogun", about an English sailor ship-
wrecked in Japan in the 1700's, deals with a confrontation between
cultures more different than many in sf.  Where sf wins is in its
power to change more than just language and tradition, to change a
race's biology and environment. No mainstream novel could talk about
historical cycles in as direct a way as "The Mote In God's Eye" did
because they couldn't conjure up a race that could build itself up
from nothing in a matter of generations the way the Moties could.
    I don't think I buy the idea that a truly alien culture would
be incomprehensible either.  At the minimum we would share physics
and chemistry and certain parts of biology (everything eats, for
instance).  Their actions would seem random only because we didn't
know enough about their motives. This comes up a lot in the novels
of C. J. Cherryh.  The human characters are constantly baffled by
the actions of the alien ones, but the reader can listen to the
omniscient author to find out what's going on.  Why are the last
pair of mri in "Kesrith: the Faded Sun" so intent on going up this
valley to commit suicide? Duncan Sten is in the dark, but the reader
knows that the valley is the ancient burying place of the mri.
    It may well be that if we ever did meet aliens we would be
unable to communicate well enough to figure out why they did what
they did.  This is a matter of a lack of data, though, and not an
inherent problem.  There may be fundamental limits to understanding
in something like physics, but I can't see them in the higher order
sciences.

------------------------------

Date: 14 SEP 1980 1432-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: unmappable themes

  It could be argued that the "rivets" type story as Russ describes
it is mirrored in the "strange lands" stories of past centuries
(Plato's REPUBLIC, More's UTOPIA, GULLIVER'S TRAVELS, etc. (and of
course WALDEN TWO in our own time).  The similarities include the
aforementioned shortage of character development and tendency of
the story to be built around the exploration of the society rather
than what we would recognize as a plot.  (The firmest example of
this in SF is RALPH 124C41+, which for these reasons is nearly
unreadable today.) (I can also see this overlapping to some extent
with a strict "alien culture" story --- but then, such are rare in
SF, especially good recent SF; the best examples, such as Cherryh,
show the boundaries between several different cultures instead of
the heart of a single isolated one.)
   I see the sharpest division in mappability coming around the "soft
rivets" stories.  Magic is commonly an external force accessible only
to a few people; the interaction between mage and mundane provides the
conflict that drives both traditional and modern fantasy.  A techno-
logical breakthrough (when not taken simply as a marvel to "Ooh!" and
"Ah!" over) can hit \everybody/ where they live --- videt the effects
of organ transplants in several of Larry Niven's works.  Silverberg
has done some of the best studies of the \personal/ effects of a
technology.  (Traditional fantasy (and bad examples of modern
fantasy) tends not to look at the effects of the supernatural on
people as \people/ rather than markers on a game board.)  Examples:
TO LIVE AGAIN (personality storage and transfer from the recently
deceased to the living; earlier treated in the Brunner short, "The
Last Lonely Man"), THE SECOND TRIP (reconstruction of a socially
acceptable personality in the wiped brain of a criminal), THE TOWER
OF GLASS (slaves from the laboratory --- looks at the personal where
R.U.R. was societal and didactic).  LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE, by
contrast, is an obvious and traditional fairy tale with an altered
vocabulary.
  "Time travel/paradox" stories also have an occasional counterpart
in fantasy; Aslan aside, there are some pieces considering the "what
might have happened if? . . ."/"what if I could change that decision?"
Of course, as we discussed a few months back, paradoxes tend to be
their own punishment/reward.
    I suspect Russ is right that a totally different culture would
be incomprehensible --- but that might also mean that it would be
impossible for the author to imagine it or, having imagined it,
to describe it in the languages currently available.  Certainly
most of Cherryh's cultures have many elements recognizable to an
anthropologist; her genius lies in the combinations of elements
from several cultures and in imagining the interaction between
cultures which never did meet on our world.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 SEP 1980 0636-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #78
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 16 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:         Sorting F/SF, Basic Fantasies of SF,
               SF Books - Here's the Plot/What's the Title? & Moderan,
               Future Breakthrus - No Sleep & Secret Accomplishments,
                                Charlie and Algernon
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  13 September 1980 01:04 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  sympathetic magic

Was it Harvey who proposed that things are drawn to Earth as flecks
are drawn to a charged sphere?  Straight sympathetic magic which is
closely related to analogy.  Perhaps "science" will again put the
two forces into the same basket in another 10-30 years.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1980 1834-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: what can SF do others can't

Back in school I did a term-paper on the issue of stories which dealt
with the central question "what separates man form \animals/" (where I
mean the philosophical question of what the determining characteristic
of humanity is.)  I developed the thesis that with the exception of
poetry and theology, science fiction was the only form of literature
that could handle this.  For those who will argue let me point out
that I had to include some famous works of "horror" (like Frankenstein)
and "philosophy" (like VerCours "And Ye Shall Know Them") and say that
they were SF.  This conjecture is based on the fact that to establish
the difference between humans and non-humans you need a non-human
intelligence (be it animal, alien, monster, or computer).  At the time
I wrote the paper I wasn't sure I agreed with the conjecture, but now,
after a few years of thought, I think I'll be willing to defend it.

  -Jim Hendler.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1980 1018-PDT
From: Steve Saunders <SAUNDERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Incomprehensible Aliens

Try "The Dance of the Changer and the Three" (by Terry Carr?) for
an exploration of the "incomprehensible aliens" theme.  Good story; I
found it troubling (but I've always wanted to understand EVERYTHING).
                Steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1980 0219-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: plot/title query

Anyone remember the novel about a man who "dies" in an auto accident
only to find himself alive again in a different body many years later?
By this time, the concept of "body-changing" is a technologically
simple feat, and people can even be technologically "strengthened"
so that their minds will survive after death and can communicate
(via mechanical means) with the living.  In fact, there is a busy
market in hijacking bodies.

  ----

Though it is clearly unrealistic, when I think of man biologically
"improving" himself, I cannot help but think of "Moderan".  Anyone
remember it?  Does anyone know if it is still in print anywhere?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 09/15/80 1041-EDT
From:  gnc at mit-ll (j.baldassini)
Subject: dreaming

For an interesting treatment of dreaming (sleeping) and consciousness
(waking) see THE KIN OF ATA ARE WAITING FOR YOU by Dorothy Bryant.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1980 1040-PDT
From: Steve Saunders <SAUNDERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Longer days

In reply to: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)

       There are a number of cases of non-circadian patterns being
     adopted for various reasons; I have only apocryphal information
     on the person who allegedly converted his week to 6 28-hour days
     (his sleep period cycled completely around the day every week)
     but Frederik Pohl in his autobiography describes deciding that he
     just didn't have enough time for writing and going on a 48-hour
     "day", thus getting both time to deal with mundanes during their
     active periods and quiet periods in which to write undisturbed.

  I may be the subject of that apocryphal information: several years
ago, while working as a programmer for MIT during the summers, I
found that my natural tendency in the absence of social phase-locking
(one project meeting every Friday, other communication on-line or
catch-as-can) was to run on about a 30-hour cycle.  This was a bit
longer than the ideal for a 6-"day" week, but that's how it seemed.
There was lots of noise in the observations, of course; the period
was maybe 30+-2 hours. I haven't been able to run my life like that
since, but there is evidence that I still would work better on a
long cycle if I could.

  Perhaps most "night people" are really "long-cycle" people, slow to
rise and slow to get sleepy, whose phase-locking with the world has a
DC phase bias due to the offset in natural frequency?  And conversely,
might "morning people" really be phase-locked short-cyclers?  There
are folks who live on a 12-hour cycle, achieved by taking a nap in
the afternoon.

                Steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 September 1980 0158-EDT (Monday)
From: Mike.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E)
Subject:  Future Technology

Whats makes everybody so sure that a major breakthrough hasn't
happened?

If our government knows how to teleport things, what makes you
think they are going to publicize it?


Personally I suspect that they have figured out how to do it, but
haven't worked out all the bugs yet.  I suppose it might use high
voltage (greater then 100K volts) electricity.  A little research
shows that high voltage equipment is much more readily available
today than 10 years ago, yet I can't think of anything that uses
big volts (except of course for particle beam weapons).

But then, I'm paranoid, so what would I know?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1980 0901-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI (Attn: Don)
Subject: Charlie & Algernon

In response to Steve Z. (V2, #77), Charlie and Algernon has been
playing at the Kennedy Center in DC for a while (It just left for
NYC).

I've seen better.

Don Desrosiers

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 09/15/80 22:29:18

"Charlie and Algernon" had its first run in Washington, and though
I did not get a chance to see it, I have heard very bad reviews.
FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON is a brilliant tragedy, and I would have a
difficult time imagining a musical comedy (which the play is
purported to be) being drawn from it.

                                Ken 

------------------------------

Date: 15 SEP 1980 1223-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: CHARLIE AND ALGERNON

  CHARLIE AND ALGERNON was mentioned by me in SFL several months ago,
following its opening at the Kennedy Center in Washington DC.  I was
appalled by the idea at the time, but the reviews from some critics I
would trust were quite good.  (It may amuse some of you to know that
the story was made into a stage play, probably before the movie came
out; a friend who is a collecting nut found in some out-of-the-way
bookstore an acting edition put out by Sam French, the leading
publisher of scripts for use (as opposed to study) in this country.)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1980 1157-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: waiting for the other shoe

Now I know how a lexical scanner feels, I read all the way through
Chip Hitchcock's letter in yesterdays SF-L waiting for the final
close parenthesis, which never came.  Chip - please supply the
closer or I'll never pop my stack.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 SEP 1980 0605-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #79
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 17 Sept 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:    SF Books - Plot/Title Response & Alien & Dreams,
                Future Breakthrus - No Sleep & Secret Accomplishments,
                     Charlie and Algernon, Basic Fantasies of SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 1346-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Book identity

"Immortality Incorporated" by Robert Sheckely

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 13:04 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: The Dance of the Changer and the Three

The "incomprehensible aliens" story Saunders mentioned [SFL V2 #78]
is indeed by Terry Carr; I've mentioned it in at least one long-ago
SF digest.  It can be found in the excellent collection "The Light
At the End of the Universe".

	-- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 11:39:34-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: dreaming stories

Yet another story dealing with dreams as an interesting and integral
part is "The Word for World is Forest" by Ursula LeGuin.  Otherwise
just a moderately competent work (quite a bit too analagous to
Vietnam), the planet's native population deal with dreams as equally
important as waking state activities.
		Ken

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 0808-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Sleep and dreaming

Two thoughts.  One: "The Lathe of Heaven" (Ursula LeGuin) is an
excellent treatment of dreaming, and handles cogently the relationship
among sleep, dream, and reality.  According to an article (letter?)
I recall seeing in "Science" years ago, there are peoples who regard
their dreams as being just as real as ordinary waking reality.  That
might be worth looking up.

Two: sleep -- this is just a personal observation, mind you -- is very
relaxing in a physical way.  Loosens the old muscles right up.  Could
that have anything to do with it?  Maybe people who sleep are those
whose physical constitutions require that time for physical recovery;
then dreaming might be an adaptation to make bearable the time spent
in necessary sleep.

---Pete

------------------------------

AUTHOR@MIT-AI 09/17/80 02:48:48

     As far as I'm concerned (if anyone cares), sleep is all a matter
of physical discomfort.  I have found almost no trouble staying awake
for up to four days at a time -- the reason I eventually do sleep is
due to overwhelming physical fatigue rather than "mind-flakiness".  I
have often wondered if I would require less sleep if I were to get rid
of some of my "equatorial bulge" and get myself in better shape...

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 1013-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: sleep cycles

I remember seeing a paper somewhere that came to the conclusion that
some insomiacs were that way because their natural cycle was like 26
hours long rather than 24.  This one schoolteacher was killing himself
trying to get up at the same time each morning, but slept normally if
he let his cycle drift.  I like the idea of "morning people" being on
12 hour cycles.  Maybe this comes from the need for siestas in hot
climates?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 0820-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI
Subject: Longer days

The discussion on non-circadian patterns reminds me of a series of
experiments performed at the US Army laboratories in Natick, Mass
in the mid-60's (if memory serves me right.)

For the most part they were studying why some people preferred warmer
climates to colder, but they also got into why some people need more
or less sleep than others.  They were primarily interested in being
able to predict these preferences so that they might more easily match
persons with jobs.

The study went into a great many physical, psychological, hereditary,
etc. factors in order to determine these facts. Many bucks were spent.
In the end it was found that the best way to find out this information
was to simply ask the person.

don

------------------------------

Date: 16 SEP 1980 1041-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: future technology (Mike.Fryd's msg)

  It's a marvelous idea, but the question is --- \what/ \kind/ of
high-voltage equipment?  Simple transmission equipment has become
much more available because of the improved economics of transmitting
at higher voltages.  I've read that long-distance transmission lines
routinely operate at >300kV and that a >700kV line is the subject of
much argument from the people who live near the proposed right-of-way;
I suppose a megavolt line is likely within the next few years.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 1006-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "Flowers for Algernon"

The whole "Flowers for Algernon" thing is a depressing reminder of
how closed sf is. Can anyone remember anything else that Daniel Keyes
ever wrote?  As far as I know he was a complete outsider and yet his
one sf short story became a book, a play, a movie, and now a musical.
The only one of us who went anywhere near that far was Arthur C.
Clarke, and he was largely carried along by Stanley Kubrick.  And
what are easily the most widely taught sf books in high school and
college? "1984" and "Brave New World".  Why is this?  Because they
tell us something about the human condition, to use that favorite
phrase of English teachers.  In Charlie's fall from genius to idiot
Keyes found a good modern way of telling the fall from grace, and
so touched people who care nothing for science or the future.  Does
Ringworld have anything as universal? Or "Dune" with its melodramatic
intrigue and bogus ecology? I would say that a story like Tom Godwin's
"The Cold Equations" does, or LeGuin's "The Dispossessed".  They'll be
remembered when Asimov and Heinlein are as archaic as Verne.
    
------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1980 03:55-EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at MIT-MC>
Subject: Mapping stories

There is a class of SF stories that I would call 'Reality stories'.
OX (the concluding book of Piers Anthony's series including Omnivore
and Orn) involves a hexaflexagon of realities, some of them quite
bizarre.  I really cannot think of any reasonable mapping for such
as these.  Then there's stories such as 'Susie's Reality', which
appeared about 6 years ago in one of the mags.  This hypothosized a
monkey who was raised in an artificial 'faked' reality with different
rules (by trikery), who escapes, and continues to manipulate reality
by her rules.  Zelazny's Amber series, while in many respects being
an adventure/fanatasy, also could not have been written in another
genre, because of the freedom to manipulate multiple realities in
one story. 

Closely related are all the stories which make use of the flexibility
SF has to offer to provide unusual structure for the stories
themselves.  Many non-SF stories feature flashback and flashforward,
but I've never seen any do it in such an integrated and extensive
fashion as Slaughterhouse Five.  P. K. Dick's UBIK I can't even begin
to classify, but it's a cinch it wouldn't make sense outside of SF.
I've never read a recursive story outside of SF, although I suppose
it is possible.

I think it's clear that SF provides a very broad base for
experimentation in story structure that you just won't find in, say,
Gothic Novels, or Westerns, or Detective, or Spy stories.  I also
think that one of SF's strengths is that it can INCLUDE these genres,
bringing a fresh viewpoint.  The much maligned 'space western' is no
worse, and usually better than your typical Western.  Many detective
and spy stories border on SF just to provide an unusual situation,
with special technologies invented just for the story.

------------------------------

Benson I. Margulies <Margulies.Multics@MIT-Multics> 09/16/80 15:49:37
Re:  Story Transference

     Much discussion has  come along  lately of the  reasons for,  and
limits of, the setting of  certain stories in certain settings.   This
whole subject began long before science fiction. In particular, Samuel
Taylor  Coleridge's  writings  about  drama  introduced  "The  Willing
Suspension of Disbelief."  To Coleridge, this was the magical state of
mind that  allowed  an  audience,  faced  with  a  really  quite  poor
illusion, to enter into the  world of a play  for the duration of  the
performance.  The crucial feature of a play that succeeds in inspiring
this state is  "Sufficient familiar  detail" to anchor  the mind,  and
provide a foundation from which it  can extend its imagination to  the
unfamiliar or fantastic.

     Much the same analysis can be applied to literature.  A novel  is
not a  movie. No  novel can  possibly convey  enough information  to
compete with real sensation.  But  the reader is prepared to  "suspend
his disbelief"  if  the  novel  provides the  detail  to  support  her
imagination.  For science  fiction novels, the  familiar detail  often
comes by using concepts  that the reader is  expected to have seen  in
other science fiction.

     Thus an author, in  trying to tell a  story with a very  unlikely
feature, must choose a setting that will ease the load on the reader's
imagination.   For  an   author  "raised"  in   the  science   fiction
"tradition" (wow, look  at all  the quotes, mommy)  alien culture  may
provide the most  familiar situation  in which to  propose a  personal
conflict. The reader will have already  "met" aliens, but the sort  of
contrived situation  neccessary to  create the  same conflict  in  our
existing society may be harder to believe than little green men!

		--benson--

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/17/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
how to classify SF using Clavell's SHOGUN and Niven's "The Jigsaw Man"
as examples.  In doing so, it gives away the major surprise element of
Niven's story.  People who have not read this story may not wish to
read any further.


------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 09/16/80 19:11:28 Re: classifying SF, SHOGUN

This week NBC is showing the mini-series SHOGUN, from the James
Clavell book of the same name.  About two years ago, I sat down
with the book, and 1200 pages and 5 days later, finished it.  After
I read it, I came to the conclusion that SHOGUN is science fiction. 
For those of you who haven't read it and are totally oblivious to
all the TV hype, SHOGUN is the story of an English pilot whose ship
crashes on the reefs of Japan.  He learns the Japanese culture and
eventually rises to the position of samurai (warrior) and advisor
to the chief warlord of the then-feudal Japan.  What the story
actually is, however, is the story of a man who gets catapulted
into a society far more alien than any he's ever known, and his
experiences in learning the ethics, mores and values of this
culture. In this story, James Clavell presents to us a culture
very different from western civilization.  His portrayal of it
is in great detail and internally self-consistent (believable).
These features of SHOGUN are the same features that made DUNE a
classic.  DUNE was extremely popular because it presented a full
alien culture in detail that was very believable. In my opinion,
the Japanese culture of SHOGUN is more alien to us than is the
fremen culture of DUNE.  Many SF cultures are harsh, but very
few writers would create a society where bad manners was a crime
meriting the death penalty.  In SHOGUN, people can be and are
beheaded for failing to bow to a superior.  Larry Niven treated
this idea briefly in his story "The Jigsaw Man".  In it, the
death penalty was meted out for traffic violations.  However,
this is different because 1) the death penalty was given for
different reasons (the general public benefited by having the
convicted criminals organs going into the organ banks) and
2) lack of proper manners is more trivial a matter than are
traffic violations.

One unique feature of SHOGUN is that much of the dialogue is in
untranslated Japanese, and the viewer has to get the meaning of
it from expressions, delivery, and situational context, much
the same as the protagonist does.  Creating an alien language
and sprinkling it liberally around is another technique many SF
writers use to lend believability to their works. DUNE had a 20
or 30(?) page appendix giving definitions for colloquial
expressions and terms of the fremen language.

The only reason I can see for not classifying SHOGUN as science
fiction is that !!WE ALREADY KNOW THAT THE CULTURE AND LANGUAGE
ACTUALLY EXIST!!  If SHOGUN was given to someone four or five
hundred years ago, a time period when Japan was believed to be
a legend or a myth, then it could be classified as science fiction.
In fact, if SHOGUN was given to someone of our own time period, but
who had no knowledge of the existence or history of the Orient,
then he too could probably classify it as science fiction.

- Bruce

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 SEP 1980 0708-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #80
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 18 Sept 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 80

 Today's Topics:           SF Movies - Videodiscs and FX,
                 Future Breakthrus - No Sleep, Charlie and Algernon,
                        Multi-media SF, What is SF? - Shogun,
                                Basic Fantasies of SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 September 1980 0108-EDT (Thursday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10A
Subject: Video Discs and EFX

VIDEO DISCS & EFX:
   While the virtue of VD's is their virtually infinitely variable
speed (even backwards!), note that their resolution, to date, is
only as good as video. The far greater effect to be seen in EFX is
in Computer-graphics, as will be demonstrated in NYIT's upcoming
"THE WORKS" and upcoming SW films, featuring Ed Catmull's (et. al)
CG wizardry.  VD-tech, though, should facilitate CG-EFX systems,
by allowing the CG frames, which are created one at a time, (often
taking an hour or more to compute), to be stored and reviewed in
real time.  Companies developing CG-EFX, such as DIGITAL EFFECTS
in N.Y.C. must presently rely on Video Tape and Frame-buffer tech-
nology, or else convert the images to 35-MM film (DICOMED-type
technology) in order to review their work.  They look forward to
VDs as a way to relatively quickly review their work, allowing
examination at any speed, and catching glitches by reviewing single
frames with ease. Subsequent editing for the final film output may
then be done by altering the CG program/sequence -- there is little
need to affect the VD images, since for the appropriately high
resolution (eg 5000 lines/inch) the film image is derived
"directly" from the computer, rather than from the VD unit.

-ww-

------------------------------

Date:  17 September 1980 10:35 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Dreaming as reality

I think the "Science" article referred to desribed the Sonoi people
of New Guinea.  These folks have complicated rules for dealing with
dreams in waking life.  They may not treat "dream-life" exactly the
same as "waking-life", but the two interact strongly.  I don't know
how much of this is rumor, or lies (told by the Sonoi to the
anthropologists) or exaggeration, but they were supposed to be
something like this:

Children are taught how to behave in dreams. For example, rather than
run from a frightening object, they should approach it.  If they are
falling, they should try to fly.  If a Sonoi hurts them in a dream,
they should give the hurter a present in "real" life.  In the morning,
everybody tells of their dreams.  Allegedly, in time, the adults have
totally lucid dreams.  Also, there is supposed to be no violent crime
among the Sonoi, and the neighboring tribes don't bother them because
they think they are "magic" or something like that.

I have some vague recollection that in Castenada's Don Juan books
there is another view of dreams as reality, with some guides on how
to control your dreams.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1980 0342-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Keyes' Flowers for Algernon

Fall from grace?  I didn't interpret the book/story at all like
ICL.REDFORD@SCORE did. I don't think Keyes intended it to appeal
to anti-scientific types either. Other than conveying a sense of
what makes up the 'guts of intellect', the book is merely trying
to get across the notions that intellectual achievement is useless
without compassion and that some scientific methods applied to human
subjects are immoral at best, which are obviously true. To take this
as an indictment of all science is going far beyond what I feel Keyes
intended; however, I'm afraid that many readers did take it this way.
As far as the 'treatment of the human condition' is concerned, it is
obvious that anything that sf produces which could be considered as
warranting study in schools would have to treat the human psyche in
some way.  A complicated story about gadgets just doesn't fill the
bill.  I've come across remarkably few full-blown studies of human
emotions in sf.  More often than not, the author catapults himself
into another world and spends the majority of the book creating new
characters, more scenery and the like, with a liberal sprinkling of
gadgets.  Also, the standard sf device of 'creating wonder' doesn't
fill the bill either.  There's only so much wonder that one can
stomach.  The Algernon story struck me as one of the better psycho-
logical studies I've read, sf or otherwise. I agree that the endless
re-hashing of a story into multiple media is pointless.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1980 1016-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <CCIS.ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Daniel Keyes.

Daniel Keyes was not a total outsider to SF, only almost.  He did
write some other things, I saw them mentioned last time I read
"Flowers for Algernon".  I think it was in "Space Mail" that I saw
the mention of other works.  There are anumber of other authors who
have been "forgotten" except for one work.  Consider Walter Miller,
Jr. and "Canticle for Liebowitz", Stanley G. Weinbaum and "A Martian
Odyssey", or even Edgar Pangborn.  These were not outsiders but I
would bet that most people can't name more than one work by these
people. Keyes wasn't an outsider, he just wasn't prolific. He may
also have found other ways to occupy his time, he wouldn't be the
first.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1980 1044-PDT
From: Craig Milo Rogers  <ROGERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Multi-media SF

     There's at least one other SF (read "speculative fiction")
writer out there whose works have gone the short story, book, play,
movie, musical, etc. route: Ray Bradbury.  His "Fahrenheit 451" was
what I read in high school (rather than "1984", etc.).  A second
author would be Jules Verne; haven't several of his works appeared
as books, movies, and plays?  Conceeded, the attribute "concern for
the human condition" applies to help distinguish these author's works
from "run of the mill" and "less successful" SF, but that is not my
point; rather, I query: What SF works have appeared in several (at
least 3) different forms (short story, novel, play, movie, opera,
etc.)?  How "successful" were they, and why?

                                        Craig Milo Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1980 0917-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: SHOGUN as sf

Yea, I'll go along with the idea that SHOGUN would be sf if we didn't
know of feudal Japan.  I'd like to draw a finer distinction, though.
Sf deals with alien cultures that COULD exist, but are not known to,
whereas fantasy works in settings both unknown and impossible.  If the
characters in SHOGUN had to battle werewolves as well as each other it
wouldn't be sf even if it took place on Alpha Centauri.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1980 09:58:03-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: SHOGUN and sf

In response to Bruce's comments on SHOGUN being sf, there is one
thing which he did not (in print at least) consider, and that is
that presenting a culture as internally consistent as the Japanese
culture is requires good technical skill, but no creativity. Clavell
didn't create the culture, he described it, and since the society
functioned for hundred's of years, it should come as no surprise
that it is consistent.

And while I agree that few sf stories have a death penalty for bad
manners, manners were (and are) an integral part of the Japanese
society, as important to them as, say, our past (and, sadly, often
present) powerful disapproval of homosexuality was to us; i.e., it
was a basic societal value.  Our forefathers and foremothers saw
nothing wrong in dealing out some of our harshest penalties to
homosexuals and letting people who failed to show proper respect
go, and the Japanese saw nothing wrong with doing the inverse. 
Bruce's contention that bad manners are trivial is a peculiarly
modern western viewpoint that fits in not at all with Japanese
civilization, or, for that matter, earlier western civilizations.
Peasant's were often killed during the Middle Ages for failing to
bow in the presence of a knight or higher lord.

All in all, although I did enjoy reading SHOGUN, I couldn't conceive
of it as sf, unless Clavell knew nothing of Japanese civilization and
created it from scratch.  As fiction it's entertaining, but if any sf
writer you respected took a known culture and simply transplanted it
without modification, I suspect you would be disappointed.

                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 17 SEP 1980 1239-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: SHOGUN as SF

  That's an interesting idea. I would say it matches my internalized
idea of SF with one exception: those books from past centuries that
are classified as SF (such as GULLIVER'S TRAVELS) tend to describe a
society that is literally non-human, i.e. not just the structure but
the people themselves are physically different from anything we know
(though this is admittedly a small distinction). I think some of the
trouble in distinguishing SHOGUN would come from the fact that SF was
not recognized as a separate genre from the general adventure tale
until this century (look at Verne, who wrote both indiscriminately).
  I would question, though, the statement that fatal manners have
never come up in SF. Consider the following:

--in DECISION AT DOONA, the society on Earth is so crowded that an
  elaborate code has sprung up in which (among other cute details)
  flatulence is an offence punished by substantial reduction in
  calorie allowance.

--in BEYOND THIS HORIZON, duels are considered an appropriate method
  of dealing with relatively trivial affronts---and a person who does
  not duel is expected to take whatever rudeness is handed out to him.

--both Laumer and Dickson, as confirmed militarists (I can just
  imagine the uproar \that/ aside will cause), have shown societies
  in which everyday manners are a form of ritualized combat; there
  are prescribed mock-valiant responses to specific actions, which
  responses the cowardly diplomats fail to make because they are too
  polite!  (thereby precipitating assorted trouble; see especially
  Dickson's NONE BUT MAN and the first story in RETEIF: AMBASSADOR
  TO SPACE (the one about the Yill).)

  These last contrast interestingly with SHOGUN; while Laumer and
Dickson both show that an equal or inferior should deliberately
challenge to offer an "opponent" the chance to claim status by
"standing up to the challenge", in SHOGUN it is the failure to
begin by acknowledging one's subordinate position that produces
an irrevocable demonstration of that position.  I'm not sure
whether "manners" is exactly the right term for this; is a
western military salute manners?

------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1980 04:23-EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Recursive SF and fictional authors

In P. K. Dick's 'The Man in the High Castle', there is much reference
to a fictional book 'The Grasshopper Lies Heavy' by one Hawthorne
Abendson.  'The Man in the High Castle' is a fictional story about
society after World War II, with certain differences from ours, like
the US lost to Japan and Germany.  'The Grasshopper Lies Heavy' is
about society after World War II, with certain differences from theirs
... (we won, but it's not identical with our reality either...)

I wonder if 'The Grasshopper Lies Heavy' has a fictional book in it
about society altered by a somewhat different outcome to World War II.

By the by, this story seems to defy mapping for yet another reason:
Where else are you going to map it to?  It doesn't have much of any
connection to Science, it is a spy story, a deeply psychological
novel, a political satire.  It very briefly and ambiguously touches
on the idea of alternate realities in one scene and in the ending
(which I don't understand...).  But it's really SF because it
hypothesizes 'something different' and explores the consequences,
and no other genre provides for an examination of an alternate
situation this fundamentally different.

   The mapping consists of being able to imagine a similar story where
   similar characters and actions would be motivated by circumstances
   acceptable to the particular genre.

This story provides the characters with motivations and actions
acceptable to any number of different genres: They're PEOPLE facing
their daily lives, in a society with problems.  But the story depends
on making a fundamental change in society, and showing the differences
and frightening similarities with ours, and SF seems to be the best
place to explore fundamentally different societies.  Swift's
'Gulliver's Travels' and Orwell's 1984 have very similar requirements
for their exploration of fundamental societal questions, and I think
they have a strong SF flavor as well.

This, to me, is the central idea behind SF, what makes SF different
and special.  SF does not require any great correspondence between
the reality of the story and our reality.  As such, it expands our
horizons.  Given this very general criterion, I don't see any point
to the endless SF/Fantasy debates and distinctions.  Is the magic
technological or not?  Who cares?  The whole POINT of SF is that
stories DON'T have to fit into tiny boxes!  When you can fit
everything nice and neat, each to it's own cubbyhole, what you
have is a series of coffins for a dead genre.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 SEP 1980 0528-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #81
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 19 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:  Original SF Telezine, SF Movies - Videodiscs and FX,
                SF Books, Charlie and Algernon, Basic Fantasies of SF,
                        What is SF? - Shogun, Stack Discipline
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 September 1980 0220 EDT
From: ZRM@MIT-MC
Subject: SF telezine

Now you can have science fiction at your fingertips. The networking
technology that brings you SF-LOVERS now brings to a file near you
an SF fiction magazine. This new magazine is made up of contributions
from network people and seeks to stimulate and entertain an actively
contributing audience. The first issue contains the following stories:

Atom & Eve...............................................Judy Anderson
Turn-About..........................................Stuart M. Cracraft
MPEIII version 768.43 login please:..............................Anon.

Plus a special section that should strike fear in the heart of anybody
who has ever edited anything.  Critiques of the material in this
magazine are encouraged and should be directed at SF-LOVERS.  

A copy of the current issue has been established at the sites listed
below.  Everyone should obtain the file from the site which is most
convenient for them. If you are unable to do so, please send mail to
SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and Roger will be happy to make sure that
you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be added
to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Many thanks to Richard Brodie, Roger
Duffey, Doug Philips, Olin Sibert, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods for
their help in distributing the magazine.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI        AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS OSFMAG
CMUA          TEMP:OSFMAG.SFL[A210DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC     [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLOVERS-OSFMAG.TXT
Rutgers       PS:<SOLOMON>OSFMAG.TELEZINE
SU-AI         SFMAG.1[T,DON]
MIT-Multics   >udd>PDO>Lamson>sf-lovers>original_sf_telezine

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1980 1254-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Video disks and EFX

In reply to Warren Wake's comments on the wonders of video disks -
three points and a grump:

* Yes, video disks are just the right thing for assembling computer
  generated animation (at low (500) res), and the currently existing
  magnetic technology (both high class hard disks and dip-shit floppy
  video disks) has been used in this application. Both types have real
  problems: hard disks (eg an Ampex SloMo) are INCREDIBLY hard to keep
  "tweeked" up - they seem to require a full time mechanical/ analog
  hacker to stay operational, and the floppy disks are - well - floppy
  (I haven't seen one that can take the punishment of a production
  environment).

* Currenly available optical disk systems are essentially read-only,
  because the mastering process is very complex/ expensive.  Hitachi
  and others keep talking about a more resonable write-once unit
  which could master a single disk from a "blank" (I think the
  notion is to burn in the data with a killer laser).

* Regarding the use of a video disk during the editing stage of
  production - the Architecture Machine Group has shown systems (eg
  The Aspen Project (a participitory "map")) which do real time, on
  the fly editing of sequences randomly spread around the disk. They
  use (at least) two drives with two copies of the same disk to allow
  a pre-seek of the desired video.

Grump: We seem to get left out of such lists very often, so I will
  point out that Information International Inc ("triple I") is another
  (the first?) hot spot of computer-animation-for-the-movies/TV work.
  For some recent examples see current issues of Back Stage (Business
  Screen) - our cover art - and the new Discover magazine. By the way
  we don't use DICOMED film recorders - we use III equipment.

                                        - Craig

------------------------------

AUTHOR@MIT-AI 09/17/80 02:48:48

     I am interested in collections of Zelazny's shorter (non-novel)
works.  I am aware of two: Four For Tomorrow, and The Doors of His
Face, The Lamps of His Mouth (after the story of the same name), but
I am wondering if there are more.  I recently thumbed thru a 'zine
and saw almost 60 shorts by Zelazny listed.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1980 1851-EDT
From: ROBG at MIT-DMS (Rob F. Griffiths)

Has anyone out there read Stephen King's new book, \FIRESTARTER/?? Is
it as good as it is reputed to be?  Is it a horror book so much as a
book about the way the government covers things up? (Or something
along those lines [as I heard from a friend])
  Also, does anyone know when the movie version of 'The Stand' is
supposed to come out?  It says 'soon' on the back cover, which can
mean two months up to two years.
                Thanx in advance;
                -ROB.

------------------------------

Date: 18 SEP 1980 1212-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: recursive^n SF

  To make matters even more convoluted, THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE
(or at least the uchronic version of it) is mentioned in Kingsley
Amis' uchronia, THE ALTERATION (brief summary: Martin Luther was
co-opted and became Pope Germanian, followed by Thomas More (?) as
Hadrian VII, and there are virtually no Protestants; thus, in 1976,
Hubert Anvil, talented boy soprano, is being prepared for castration),
in which "Time Romance" and "Counterfeit Worlds" are not respectable
but are widely read in secret.  Amis, however, gets even cuter; he
mentions a book by Keith Roberts, but it's called GALLIARD instead
of PAVANNE, a useful pointer showing the false sight of the reviewer
in TIME who called THE ALTERATION a pastoral story marred only by
Lyall's murder.

------------------------------

Date: 18 SEP 1980 1221-PDT
From: HAAS at USC-ECL
Subject: SHOGUN, ETC.

Greetings!

This is my first time on the net mailing list, and I found reading
SF-LOVERS mail quite interesting. Has anyone ever done a study
correlating the number of computer-type people to the number of
science fiction fans who are computer-types? Seems to me that we
have more than our share......

.....But that's what makes life interesting. I may have a little
catching up to do, but here are my views (for what they are worth)....

SHOGUN as SF. I really do not think so; I would view it more as a
historical-fictional story, although many an SF story does that
also. Seems to me that there is no basic difference between what
happened in Japan in the 1600s and what happens in SHOGUN, except
that a white man was made SAMURAI.  I do not know if a white man
ever achieved that singular honor. As far as capital punishment
for offenses, I can think of any number of stories that dealt with
that.....MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS springs to the top of my mind
("throw him out the airlock!").

I know that I am missing earlier elements of this discussion, but
please bear with me.

Daniel Keyes and FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON was definite SF, and good SF,
even though there were no TIE fighters or other starships zapping
everything in sight.  All it did was take a basic premise (intel-
ligence) and expand a little on it.  John Varley's PERSISTANCE OF
VISION did much the same thing, and I hope you agree that that was
SF, (it won a Hugo award....)/

Enough for now.... I hope you all will be merciful with my initial
comments and ignorance of matters that have occured before me.

Ray Haas

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1980 0923-PDT (Thursday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Shogun, etc.

  Well, of course the "explorer discovers an unknown and rather
unusual civilization" stories have been at the borderline of F
and SF for quite a while.  Consider some of H. Rider Haggard's
stories, or those of A. Merritt. These have been marketed both
as "mainstream" (under the heading of "romances") and as "fantasy"
(recently by Ballantine and Avon).  The most you can say about
"Shogun" is something pompous like "it follows many of the
narrative conventions of science fiction."
   Of course, what pure SF can do with the first contact theme,
that the historical or "lost civilization" story can't, is come
up with a different species entirely, with the intention of
shedding light on the nature of human thought and behavior by
contrasting it with something quite non-human.  C.S. Lewis does
this (with heavily Christian overtones) in Out of the Silent
Planet, and one of the nicer touches in "Mote in God's Eye" by
Niven & Pournelle was the Moties' bemusement at the humans'
nearly religious faith in the proposition that every problem
has a solution.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1980 1838-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Shogun

I have to agree with Bruce about Shogun being SF (although I do
not believe that politeness is trivial - when in Rome, etc...). 
To me SF is LITERATURE (ie well written material) that takes some
sort of ABNORMAL concept (in the sense that I do not experience
it in the real world) and uses it in the story (either for fun or
to make some sort of moral/political/social point).

Thus a lot of GOOD historical fiction falls into my definition
of SF. To me all you have to do to make it 'real' SF is to make
an earth-like world and set your story there.

Creativity is not really a good criteria.  Most good regular SF
borrows alot from history. DUNE's Freeman culture has many traits
of real earth desert cultures. Jerry Pournelle's stories relating
to the military uses many concepts and details from real earth
engagements. Asimov based his galactic empire on many historical
empires (the Roman one dominating). I can cite more examples, and
I am sure others can too.

Writers write from experience, so they will often use real events
and societies in thier stories. Thus the line between fiction and
fact can often be very thin.

Historical writers use more facts than average, but they are often
allowed to alter things to fit the story line better. This is done
in Shogun, although the central historical facts are correct.
Japanese society of the 17th century is very strange to me, far
outside my normal experience.  (Although I am well versed in
Japanese Political, Economic, and Military history, the culture
is still very alien).

Of course, experiences are relative.  What I call SF you may think
is simply mainstream.  But has not that always been the case.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 16 SEP 1980 1033-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: waiting for the other shoe

  Sorry about that; I sometimes have trouble getting in enough right
parentheses. (Somebody once proposed a "superparenthesis" which would
pop the entire stack of left parentheses but I don't recall what it
looked like and can't see a reasonable way of doing it on a
non-graphic terminal.) Herewith the corrected section:

  It could be argued that the "rivets" type story as Russ describes it
is mirrored in the "strange lands" stories of past centuries (Plato's
REPUBLIC, More's UTOPIA, GULLIVER'S TRAVELS, etc. (and of course
WALDEN TWO in our own time)
                           )
                            .  The similarities include the aforemen-
tioned shortage of character development and tendency of the story to
be built around the exploration of the society rather than what we
would recognize as a plot.  (The firmest example of this in SF is
RALPH 124C41+, which for these reasons is nearly unreadable today.)
(I can also see this overlapping to some extent with a strict "alien
culture" story --- but then, such are rare in SF, especially good
recent SF; the best examples, such as Cherryh, show the boundaries
between several different cultures instead of the heart of a single
isolated one.)

P.S. Should I mention that a lexical scanner might also have problems
     with your msg? The first comma should be a semicolon or period.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 1400-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: stack bondage and disipline

Chip - thankx for the correction.
       (some Lisps use "]" as the supercloser)

unnamed person @OFFICE-1 who sent me mail containing one closer -
     - my stack thankx you.

And no comments abouts unmatched brackets in this message.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 SEP 1980 0827-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #82
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 20 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 82

 Today's Topics: Future Breakthrus - No Sleep, SF Fans and Computers,
                 Horrible SF Movie, SF Books - Zelazny & Firestarter,
                        What is SF? - Shogun, Stack Discipline
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 SEP 1980 1305-EDT
From: DEE at CCA (Don Eastlake)

At least one person who lived a week of 6 28 hour days a week for some
months was Peter Samson.  This was when he was at MIT 10+ years ago.
Last I heard he was working for Systems Concepts in SF CA on a more
normal schedule.

------------------------------

Date: 19 SEP 1980 1036-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: computers and fans

  A "Habitat" poll was run at Disclave (Memorial Day weekend
convention in DC) in 1978 (I think) to see whether the fans in
attendance had enough talents/skills/career experience among them
to staff a closed system (e.g., L5). The results were surprising,
especially considering that Disclave is a relatively laid-back
convention; I recall that something like half of the people who
answered the questionnaire (which was most of the people there)
were doing something with computers, (i.e., programming, managing,
selling, etc.).

------------------------------

Date: 19 SEP 1980 1053-PDT
From: HAAS at USC-ECL
Subject: computers and fans, continued..........

  As part of an organization for the advancement of space
industrialization and settlement, I have made an informal
survey, coming from the other direction. There are many
engineers, scientists, computer programmers and analysts,
etc. involved in this group. I find that most of them (not
surprisingly) are SF fans. But usually not at a fanatical
(no pun) level. They enjoy SF, and the usual comment is
that it "expands my perception of myself and my environment,
and the possiblities of the future."  Again, this is not
surprising, for by and large, the plans that we have for
the future can easily be considered SF (by any standards).
But this particular section of SF can indeed be made into
reality. Which brings up an interesting question.....

...... If an SF story deals with a future possibility, and,
when the future rolls around, it turns out that that particular
prediction did not happen, does the story stop being SF? This
is probably not a valid question, as the story deals with what
could have been, and I think I just answered my own question.
Oh well....

 till next time, then

Ray Haas

------------------------------

Date: 19 September 1980  07:50-EDT (Friday)
From: Andrew G. Malis <MALIS at BBNE>
Subject: Bad movie

I can't remember if this film made the original all-time bad SF film
list, but last night Ch. 38 in Boston played "Santa Claus Conquers the
Martians".  It was such a loser, it was great!  The acting, writing,
and direction were uniformly BAD, and the Martians were men wearing
shiny jump suits and helmets with vacuum-cleaner hoses sticking out.
A real must for all able to catch it in the future.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 19 SEP 1980 1023-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Zelazny collections

 The only one I can think of offhand is MY NAME IS LEGION, which
contains his three novellas about the man who managed to stay off
the system when information about everyone else in the world was
put online, thus allowing him to assume whatever identity is
appropriate for each bit of derring-do.  There must be others
in MITSFS.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1980 1107-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Firestarter

Rob Griffiths asked about "Firestarter" - I haven't read it
yet either, but I believe it was condensed (or something) in
the previous issue of Omni magazine. There is talk about a
movie version of Firestarter also, but that is in the very
early discussion stage.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1980 (Friday) 1135-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: "Firestarter" and a query

Two chapters from Stephen King's new work "Firestarter" appeared in
fairly recent issues of OMNI.  I have yet to read the book, but the
plot seems to be a variation on the "secret agency in the government
sets out to capture/kill innocent individual" hype.  To wit, a man
and a woman are subjects of an experiment to test the effect of a
drug.  The drug, it turns out, imparts on the imbiber telekinetic
abilities. The couple marry and have a daughter who is born with
the ability to start fires sans matches.  The government, ever
watchful for new weapons, tries to capture the girl and kill the
father.  So much for what appeared in OMNI.

I didn't notice any of the supernatural horror which seems to mark
a number of King's other works, but it does seem to be good escape
fiction.

Now, has anybody read Phillip Jose Farmer's "Magic Labyrinth"?
Does he really tie all of the loose ends together?

-- Dave Smith

------------------------------

Date: 19 SEP 1980 1040-PDT
From: HAAS at USC-ECL
Subject: FIRESTARTER,SHOGUN, ETC.

To Rob Griffiths and other interested parties....

FIRESTARTER, in my opinion, is one of the best books so far by Stephen
King. From the start to the finish, it keeps you going, and wanting
more. Extremely well done. There is no horror in the classical sense,
but there are definitely certain sections of the book that are quite
eerie. It also makes a commentary on the power that some of the secret
organizations of the U.S. Government has, but it is not overbearing
about it, and frankly, quite realistic. Again, a beautifully written
entirely believable book about ordinary people caught in not so
ordinary circumstances. Recommended to all.

Even though the debate on whether or not SHOGUN is SF or not will
continue, I must make the comment that *whatever* it is, it is an
excellent piece of filmmaking. Acting and production are great. I
have not been quite so entranced with any movie made for television.
Good Stuff! I have come to realize the the primary disagreement point
on whether much of what we discuss is SF or no, can be traced to a
basic definition of what exactly SF is. I know that this has probably
been addressed in the past,and it would most likely be redundant to
go over it again. There are several excellent reference works on the
subject, written by SF writers, which attempt to define: the genre.
If anybody wishes, I will provide a list of the better ones.

till next time...........

ray

------------------------------

Date: 09/18/80 1155-EDT
From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject:  Remarks on classifying SHOGUN as SF

     Some of Samuel Delaney's views on the issue of what distinguishes
SF from mainstream literature may be relevant to the recent suggestion
that SHOGUN can be classified as SF.  Delaney's position may be
summarized as:

     The setting of a story is set of premises about the physical,
social, and psychological facts and laws which are true in a ficti-
tious world or universe. SF and "literature" differ because SF aims to
depict developments of plot and character which are rigorous logical
consequences of the setting and initial situation, while "literature"
aims to express insights about the "human condition".  SF studies the
abstract structure of worlds; literature does not.  Internal consis-
tency is high up on the list of virtues for SF, but is a minor value
in literature.  It is not necessary that the setting of a story be
radically different from known reality, to classify the story as SF.

     Delaney has said that Emma Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, one of
the old chestnuts of high school English courses, is SF.  He might
very well agree that SHOGUN is, too.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1980 1224-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: RWK's "who cares"

Robert Kern's dismissal of the SF vs. fantasy question sounds good to
me. It has always seemed to me that "regular" literature is a subset
of SF, and I guess in that scheme SF is a subset of fantasy. If that
is true, we might better discuss when you can say "this has no element
of pure fantasy" or "this has no element of science fiction".

It would be hard to find a work of fiction which has no touch of
fantasy.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1980 1009-PDT
From: Mike Peeler (MDP at SAIL) <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: SF is everything

    What snobs these are who think the name of Science Fiction can
lay claim to any work they happen to fancy!  Unusual circumstances
may make a story interesting, but they do not make it \ipso facto/
science fiction.  Tomorrow, a hundred people will propound that THE
ADVENTURES OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN is Science Fiction, and what is worse,
they will believe it.

------------------------------

Date: 18 SEP 1980 1202-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: debates and distinctions

  I enjoy them occasionally; the playing with ideas, including "What
exactly are we arguing about, anyway?" is part of the fun of SF.
  But I support RWK's parting sally,

       The whole POINT of SF is that stories DON'T have to fit into
     tiny boxes!  When you can fit everything nice and neat, each to
     it's own cubbyhole, what you have is a series of coffins for a
     dead genre.

with loud bravos and the Dena Brown Memorial Award ("Let's get SF out
of the classroom and back in the gutter where it belongs!").

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1980 1014-PDT
From: Mike Peeler (MDP at SAIL) <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Brackets tax

    All right, Craig (Reynolds), no comment "abouts unmatched
brackets" in your message.  You mentioned that some LISPs use "]"
as a super-parenthesis.  While that may work fine for LISP, it
would not work well in text.  Use "=" instead.  Some calculators
use that.

    Chip (Hitchcock), I'll put it bluntly.  You did mention "that a
lexical scanner might also have problems" with Craig's message.  You
shouldn't have.  A lexical scanner does not parse, it scans input for
items it recognizes from its lexicon.  It would recognize ")" and ","
but would not notice their absence.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 SEP 1980 0758-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #83
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 21 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 83

  Today's Topics:       Original SF Telezine, SF TV - Shogun,
                  SF Books - Firestarter & Budrys Reviews & Moderan
                       & Alien Way, News Events - Elf Invasion
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 SEP 1980 1414-PDT
From: The Moderator

The first issue is now available at USC-ECL from the file:
[USC-ECL]<HX>SF-LOVERS.OSFMAG;1  12 pages.  Thanks go to
Jim <JMCHUGH at USC-ECL> for establishing the file.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1980 0521-PDT (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: SHOGUN

Just thought I'd mention that I too really liked SHOGUN. It was the
finest piece of television drama which I can remember since "Golden
Age" productions, and certainly more massive than any of those.

I might note that of the 12 hours of the production, 2 hours were
dedicated to commercials.  That is, 1 minute out of every 6 was
advertising.  I was really getting tired of seeing the Bell phone
store ad EVERY night.  Still, it's better than Harlan and Madaline
of DIAL Chevrolet out here. They sponsor alot of late night movies,
and they are usually more horrifying than the movies.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1980 0058-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Firestarter's position in the real world

BESTSELLERS HARDCOVER FICTION  (from The New York Times)

FIRESTARTER, by Stephen King. (Viking, $13.95.)
  Eight-year-old Charlie can look at anything and turn it into flames.

                Date                  This  Last   Weeks
                                      Week  Week  On List
            14 September                2     2      4
            21 September                2     2      5

------------------------------

Date: 19 SEP 1980 1030-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: FIRESTARTER

  I feel very equivocal about it; it's borderline SF in the popular
tradition, like CARRIE and THE DEAD ZONE, but in some ways I found
it weaker than either --- unlike THE DEAD ZONE, FIRESTARTER wasn't
convincing enough to keep me from arguing with it every few pages.
King seems to be "discovering" writing techniques gradually and
putting them to work one at a time to make each book a little more
complicated than the previous one.  I also thought the ending was
an awful copout, but there was just enough surprise in it that I
won't spoil it here.

P.S. The government coverup is important, but it's not the sole
     motivation of the book; given the treatment, I'd say "horror"
     is as good a description as "SF".  The government coverup is
     in effect part of the horror (there's this homicidal seeker
     after truth, see . . .).

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1980 0057-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: SF reviews

   Stephen King, "Firestarter"
   William Sloane, "The Edge of Running Water"
   Gene Wolfe, "The Island of Doctor Death and
                Other Stories, and Other Stories."
   "100 Great Science Fiction Short-Short Stories,"
      edited by Isaac Asimov, Martin Greenberg, and Joseph Olander
   "A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction,"
      edited by Baird Searles, Martin Last and Beth Meacham
 
By Algis Budrys        (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    The popularity of "occult" novels haunts the science fiction
community.  We of all people are expected to pay serious attention
to stories based on semiliterate misreadings of religious apocrypha.
Not based, mind you, on either testament of the Bible, but on super-
stitions which Catholic, Protestant and Jewish theologians can tell
you are mostly transformations of ancient pagan beliefs that have
not yet been shaken off the skirts of genuine religion.
    Books like "The Other" and "Rosemary's Baby" are exploitation
novels at a level undreamed of by even the editors of Spicy Space
Stories or Gruesome Demoniacal Monthly. And literarily they haven't
the faintest connection with any form of the Speculative Fiction
genre. So now you're expecting me to say something bad about Stephen
King's "Firestarter" (Viking, $13.95).  And I could - it's sloppily
written, it's plotted to wring every hair-raising potential out of
creaking stairs, branches tapping on windows in deserted houses,
lurking watchers in the shadows and all that other Gothic stuff -
and it drags its feet.
    But those are details. Go get it. Tell 'em I sent you. It's good.
    King is a bright young man who has figured out how to become a
consistent best-selling author. That objective has caused him to bend
his appreciable writing talent to the writing of books filled with old
horror-movie cliches, in the correct expectation that this would sell
them to makers of new horror movies.  But underneath it all, he's
fundamentally different from the other "occult" wordsmiths, whom he
has outdone in popularity with earlier novels like "Carrie," "Salem's
Lot" and "The Shining."  He is a Speculative Fiction writer, which
means that though he throws in the horror scenes with unabashed
persistence, he is in the meanwhile asking hard, logical questions
and offering at least partial answers.
    I don't mean to scare anyone away from him, but the fact is that
King is obviously too good for the trash bestseller market.
    The story in this case centers on "Charlie" McGee, a little girl
who can start fires just by wanting to.  The daughter of two former
college students who volunteered for a hallucinogen-testing program,
she and her father are hunted through a long hide-and-seek sequence
by The Shop.  The Shop is a clandestine federal agency which makes
the worst excesses of the CIA look benign.  The Shop has already
killed her mother in an overanxious attempt to interrogate her.
After it captures Charlie and her father, it ruthlessly handles
them in ways that eventually force her to bring out her powers
in a violently melodramatic climax.
    But under all that page-turning foofaraw are some very sharp
characterizations, and some relatively deep considerations of power
and its uses.  There's also a portrait of a relationship between
Charlie and her father that goes quite a bit farther into
parent-child love-fear that you will ever see in the eventual movie
version. Readers won't find much new in the "scientific rationale,"
but they might find something more in the book than they expected.
    For how it's really done when your only concern is with being
literate and entertaining, however, Del Rey has reprinted William
Sloane's "The Edge of Running Water" as a $2.25 paperback.  Copy-
righted in 1939, it is the classic novel about a man who turns his
scientific training to attempted communication with his dead beloved
wife.  Readers of Del Rey's earlier Sloane reprint, "To Walk The
Night," will have no trouble believing this is a must-read.
    The new "100 Great Science Fiction Short-Short Stories," edited
by Isaac Asimov, Martin Greenberg, and Joseph Olander (Avon, $2.50)
pretty much lives up to the adjective. Not all these ultracompressed
creations from some of science fiction's brightest stars are truly
"great," but with a hundred to choose from, you'll find plenty to
justify your purchase. A notable absence is that of the late Fredric
Brown, without question the master of the snapper ending.  However,
that's probably not the editor's fault; I understand that the Brown
literary estate is in an unfortunate tangle.
    Pocket, at $2.95, has brought out Gene Wolfe's short story
collection - now pay attention - "The Island of Doctor Death and
Other Stories, and Other Stories." (cq) It includes the title story,
as well as "The Death of Dr. Island" and "The Doctor of Death Island,"
and eleven other small gems of various waters from the author of that
stunning recent novel, "The Shadow of the Torturer."
    Facts on File has issued a hardcover edition, at $12.95, of "A
Reader's Guide to Science Fiction," edited by Baird Searles, Martin
Last and Beth Meacham. This is an update as well as a library-useful
edition of last season's Avon paperback first edition, which was
recommended highly here for being exactly what the title promises,
and a much-needed item indeed.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1980 at 1043-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: David R. Bunch's MODERAN

     Those stories were collected in a book not too many years ago.
I have not seen it in print for some time.

     When I was much, much younger, and more suceptible to flashy
technique than I am now, I thought David R. Bunch was the greatest
SF story writer who ever lived, not excepting Frederic Brown. When
I grew old enough to tell ability from technique I gave up this
thesis, especially when I finally tumbled to the heavy Christian
subtext pervading the stories.

     For those who like their SF served up weird, though, these
stories are well worth the reading.

------------------------------

Date:  16 September 1980 15:54 edt
From:  Spratt.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Moderan, Alien Way

Lauren, I was pleased to see your query about Moderan (by David R.
Bunch).  You are the only person other than myself that I know to
have read it.  The book has always been a favorite of mine for the
sheer stylistic boldness.

As regards stories in alien cultures, since this seems to have
metmorphosed into a story request, "Alien Way" by Gordon R. Dickson
is set entirely (almost) within a very different and alien culture. I
felt it was very well done both in terms of presenting a consistently
"different" culture and in making same understandable to the reader.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1980 10:05 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Invasion

I thought this might be of interest.

     ----------

     Date: 18 Sept. 1980 9:45 am PDT (Thursday)
     From: JimDay
     Subject: Invasion

       A woman recently called the police to report that her home
     was being invaded by elves. However a search of the premises
     by the Elf Squad revealed nothing amiss.  When asked how the
     elves gained entrance, the woman replied, "They came in
     through that window."
       "But that's a blank wall," the officer in charge remarked,
     "There's no window there."
       "Not any more, there isn't," the woman agreed, "They took
     it with them when they left."

     ----------

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 SEP 1980 0525-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #84
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 22 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 84

     Today's Topics: SF TV - TESB Special & LA Area Syndication,
                       What is SF? - Shogun & Mysticism in SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 at 0220-CDT
From: HJJH at UTEXAS 

Rumor hath it that a television special on the making of TESB will be
broadcast on Monday, 22 Sept, at 7 PM CDT. (Please check your local
newspapers for date and time of broadcast in your area.)  Narrator,
this time is said to be Mark Hamill.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1980 1325-PDT (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Outer Limits and LIS

While I realize that mentioning the television situation in L.A. does
not benefit the whole of SFL, I feel that there are enough readers in
the Southern California area and others who get our local channels
piped in to make the following announcement worthwhile:

KTTV (11) in Los Angeles has apparently again begun rerunning "The
Outer Limits" in strict chronological sequence, as specified in the
"Outer Limits Episode Guide" available through SFL.  It is running
at 2PM on Saturdays.  Currently they are up to episode #2.

On another note, KTLA (5) appears to have begun rerunning "Lost in
Space"!  I don't know whether this will continue for long or not.
For now, they seem to be on at noon on Sundays.  They appear to be
in the middle of the series, but once before (about 6 years ago)
they ran the whole series in chronological sequence, so maybe they
will again.

[As many of you know, I am a big fan of LIS, considering it to be
 the ultimate in SF camp. They KNEW they were making a comedy after
 awhile.  The first five or six episodes, however, were relatively
 good SF.]

--Lauren--

------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 09/19/80 19:52:13 Re:  Shogun & SF.

Those who try to define science fiction carefully and rigorously
seem to be seeking a way to categorize a work using only internal
evidence. No such definition exists: none can possibly exist.  It
is not even possible to distinguish fact from fiction in this way:
one must have external, objective knowledge of what is really true
about the universe in order to make that distinction.

We might debate about Churchward's "Lost Continent of Mu" series:
is this fact or bad fantasy?  One who knew nothing about history and
geology might suppose from this work's earnest tone that it was true.
Even a moderately knowledgeable reader, however, gags after the first
three chapters, or else gleefully tears through the whole series,
depending on his sense of humor.

I read Michener's "The Source" in my teens, accepting it as historical
fiction until my mother, who grew up in Palestine and Israel and knows
a lot of the area's history, told me that in many places the novel is
just fantasy, vaguely inspired by history and archaeology.

I simply don't know enough about Japan to tell whether "Shogun" is
historical fiction or fantasy.

My "definition" of SF is cultural and extensional.  A good parallel
is concert or "serious" music, what some people still call "classical"
music.  How can you tell a piece of modern concert music from certain
modern jazz?  You look at the program notes or the record jacket and
see who wrote it, who is performing it, what their background is.
Concert music is music written by a certain set of composers -- a
list of perhaps a couple of thousand names.  Why do we lump these
composers together?  What do Webern and Crum have in common with
Schubert and Dvorak and with Palestrina?  Simply that they are part
of a long cultural sequence, a progression.  It is easier to connect
Crum with Palestrina than it is to connect him with Brubeck, although
Crum and Brubeck are contemporaries and Palestrina has been dead for
almost 500 years.

Similarly, SF is the kind of fiction that a certain group of people
write and read (a list of a few million names inserted here) and
talk about to each other and have a common vocabulary about.  SF
is an ethnicity, no easier to define than Macedonia.  By this kind
of thinking, I don't think Shogun is SF, because Clavell doesn't
know, speak to, read, or learn from Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Del Rey,
Eklund, Farmer, Goulart, Harrison, ... , and you can tell he doesn't.
On the other hand, much of Amis' "mainstream" fiction reads and feels
like SF.  If this is really literature, then we should be tying the
genre together with common style and experience, and common concerns
and interests, which Le Guin shares with Zelazny but neither do with
Clavell.  Just defining SF by its content is not penetrating enough,
lacking a certain essential insight about what the SF community is.

I have rambled longer than I intended, and don't know if I have made
my point at all.  I apologize if I have bored anybody.

     ---Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1980 2027-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: F, SF, & F

     On the subject of inventing distinctions between F and SF,
etc: First of all, please don't forget that, for the purposes of this
discussion, the "underlying reality" consists of the books themselves.
If you want to create a distinction so as to separate the books into
different subsets, just as people create distinctions between living
and dead objects and between plants and animals, thats ok, it may be
useful to do so -- but don't be surprised if your subsets are not well
defined (just as there are borderline living/dead and plant/animal
examples).  We have all heard a variety of criteria suggested as the
basis for distinguishing sf from fiction and from fantasy; some of
these can be useful at times, but I have never found a criterion that
was supposed to be objectively applied which created well defined
subsets (whose application was not at some times ambiguous).

     Second, I think that many people have a personal feeling as
to what is SF, what is Fantasy, and what is Fiction (someone a few
days ago talked about his "internal definition" of SF, for instance).
This feeling is not a formal definition, it is a recognition; that
is, when you read Foundation you know it is SF, when you read The
Hobbit you know it is fantasy, and when you read Bleak House you
know it is fiction. Most of the ideas for "objective" distinctions
are attempts to make objective and thereby universal the personal
subjective process of recognition.  (They come \after/ the
recognition.)  Of course different people have different personal
judgements; moreover, you can read a book and "know" that it is a
mixture of two genres.  Thus a person's unconscious judgement does
not necessarily (if ever) make a clean separation either... One of
the best definitions of fantasy and of fiction I know was touched
on by Bruce@MIT-AI during the Shogun-SF discussion: fiction is
about things that the reader thinks do not exist or did not exist
(are not known to exist), a book is fantasy to the reader who
thinks the things and events could not exist ("unknown and impos-
sible"). I find this definition a useful one because it often seems
to match people's internal definitions.  For example, we have had
people here dismiss books with magic as mere fantasy and not true
SF because the magic is impossible (they think it is, since it
goes against our current scientific paradigm).  Notice, however,
that when a book with magic incorporates a scientific sounding
explanation of the magical powers, such as psi powers, or when
the magic is treated in a scientific, logical, and consistent
manner (The Stars My Destination, many Heinlein books, etc. etc.)
more readers find such powers believable and there is a lot more
popular support for calling the book SF rather than fantasy.
That's enough for now, 

                                        enjoy your reading,
                                                cat
------------------------------

MASEK@MIT-ML 09/20/80 15:42:15 Re: SHOGUN as Science Fiction

Science fiction is a story from another universe.  The universe may be
very similar to our universe, it may just be some time in the future,
but there is something different.  SHOGUN was a very good story, but
it was set in this universe at an earlier time.  I call those stories
historical fiction.  Good fiction is good fiction regardless of how we
classify it.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/22/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It extends
our discussion of speculative fiction by considering the debt certain
elements of speculative fiction owe to mysticism.  It uses TESB and
the Castenada books on Don Juan as examples.  In doing so, it includes
a spoiler for TESB.  People who have not seen the movie or read the
book may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 1980 0220-PDT
From: Robert Blum <RSBLUM at MIT-AI>
Subject: The mystic parts of SF

     I realize I may be late in contributing now to the (magic) and
mystery of SF started Paul Schauble <Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS>
on his talk about light saber speculations, but I felt it was time I
said something.

     In stories of this nature, the Empire etal etc, a power like
force of some kind is used. In Star Wars we accept it because it is
internally consistant, but such "forces" are not the domain of just
SF, or fiction for that matter. Someone in recent days mentioned the
five Don Juan books by Carlos C...these are a good example. In the
report, laid out somewhat like a novel (causing controversy even to
this day whether or not it is fiction) we learn that the Yaqui source
of magical power actually stems from an understanding of the
dreamstate...supposedly mastering the chaos existing there and using
it in the real (real should be quoted as the distinction is thin)
world.  Such thinking is common to most shamanistic "religions"
stretching from North Asia and Europe, the pre-Christian Lapps for
example, into the great civilizations of the pre-Hispanic New World.
In the latter, the evidence for such things as spirit flight and other
shamanistics can only be gleened from archeological remains, but the
evidence is convincing (at least to some art history people here at
UCLA /do not scoff until you have read the reports by these people/).

      The fact that we are getting at is that a medium of magic other
than our familiar European type magic with its mythological references
(trolls, brownies, witches, fairies) and powers outlined in spells and
classifiable objects (such as infamous cold iron) does exist and it is
very eastern in flavor. Have read all the Don Juan books --- the first
is not representative, all have to be read --- and having read all I
can get on studies of shamanism (Robert Furst being a good reference
for the Huchoi indians of Central America), I was not repeat *** not
*** surprised to see that scene in TESB where Luke does the flying
stunt to escape from Darth's (HSSSSS) trap. He had come to the point
where he, Luke, could manipulate, somewhat by reflex, the stuff of
reality. Carlos, in the last two Don Juan books can do this with
difficulty, but in almost the same fashion as Luke.

     I would not be surprised if Leigh Brackett read the 5 Don Juan's
before writing her screenplay, or was influenced from a past reading.

Think About This Though:
     If the Don Juan books are not fiction, what then?

     Also, the writers amongst you: think of using the shamanistic
complex in your fantasy writing.  It is a demanding request, but
well worth the effort for la difference. (I am doing so.)

     -- RSBLUM@MIT-AI (UCLA-Dec10)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 SEP 1980 0653-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #85
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 23 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 85

Today's Topics: Alien Intelligence - Communication, SF Movies - BBtS,
                   SF TV - Lost in Space, SF Books - Cat/Psi Book
               & Mother Goose Query, What is SF? - Shogun & Mysticism,
                             News Events - Elf Invasion
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 10:50 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: communications with aliens.

John Lilly and others claim that there exists at least one other
intelligent species on the earth - dolphins. Lilly has written a
series of books on the subject. The one I have in mind is "The
Mind of the Dolphin". In this book, he describes and experiment
in which a woman and a dolphin live together in a specially
designed amphibious environment. The woman became convinced that
the dolphin had an intelligence similar to, and as advanced as
her own. Others have claimed (less convincingly perhaps) that
whales are at a similar or greater intelligence level. We have
already shown in our relationships with these (sentient?) beings
that communication can occur, but that even so, many people may
not realize it for what it is. I think that we have the answer
to the problem of communication with another species within our
grasp when we realize that right here on our own planet is the
opportunity to find out about a (possibly) sentient species with
an extremely different evolutionary heritage.

        --      Larry   --

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 1920-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Battle Beyond the Stars

Saw BBtS last weekend, with some trepidation since a friend who had
just seen it told me it stank.  However, he is the type who takes
Star Wars seriously, so I figured maybe it was satirical enough to
turn him off. This proved to be the case. What's-his-face (John-Boy)
made a marvelous straight man at whom to throw all the hoary old
sci-fi (!) cliches.  The fact that someone was acting poorly became
apparent enough during tESB to break in to consciousness twice; it
didn't happen during BBtS (although maybe maybe I had higher expec-
tations for the former). BBtS succeeds at being melodrama better
than tESB succeeds at being drama.  See it instead of Airplane.

(ps: I couldn't find it in NJ, I had to go to Fairfax, VA
     {it's also playing in Alexandria})

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 12:42 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Lost In Space

This show was a perfect example of how Irwin Allen would take a
relatively interesting theme and bastardize it for the kiddies.
Virtually all of his TV stuff went this route, including Voyage to
the Bottom of the Sea, Land of the Giants, etc. My personal reaction
to anything with his name on it is to see if it was one of the first
10 shows in the series.  If so, I'll watch it; otherwise, I'll call
in the neighborhood rug-rats. (Please excuse my flaming, I was never
into "camp".)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 17:06 PDT
From: Coleman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Cat Stories

     I have been a little behind on SFLovers lately, because of
work, but I wondered if the book "A Judgement of Dragons" by Phyllis
Gotlieb was mentioned as a book concerning cat-like beings.  I just
finished the book, which is a collection of short stories loosely
tied together. I enjoyed it very much although it is a little offbeat.
It would also qualify as a book concerning Psi powers and their uses
in a galaxy-wide, multi-species society.

     As an aside, I wonder if anyone out there has heard of or has
access to a book called "A Spacechild's Mother Goose".  I have heard
a few of the rhymes from this book and would like to obtain a copy
for myself, but it has been out of print for quite a while.

                                TTFN,
                                Michele

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 11:22 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: misc.

EMMA????....Austin??????  What happened to poor old JANE?????

And re Lauren's message about commercial time in SHOGUN, let me tell
you folks that there are about TEN MINUTES of commercials in EVERY
prime time hour, and it gets worst in non-prime time.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1980 14:51:19-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: SHOGUN, creativity, &c

One can, of course, define a term any way one wishes, and without
stretching things too far, follow a definition of sf which includes
both good and bad historical fiction, but that seems to defy any
normal understanding of the genre distinctions.  Certainly there
are similarities between sf and histfict, and between sf and gothic
novels, and sf and westerns.  They all take people in situations,
project a change in that situation, and follow the consequences.
In other words, they all tell stories.  This is a somewhat self-
evident, and rather mundane, way of looking at things.  Therefore,
we create titles for genres, and attach distinguishing character-
istics. Some works will always borrow heavily from more than one
set of characteristics, and therefore possibly defy exact labelling.
However, SHOGUN does little of this, swiping only a bit from gothic
novels.  Clavell takes a real event in history (the arrival in Japan
of an English pilot on a Dutch ship) at a real time (one of struggle
for supremacy in Japan) with real results (the pilot becomes central
to plots and counterplots, becomes a samurai, educates the Japanese
about the Portugese...) and fictionalizes it somewhat so he can take
more liberties with what really happened. That sounds like a variant
of historical fiction to me.
                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 1202-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA

Well, this discussion about Shogun as SF astounds me.  I always
thought that the S stood for Science, and that at least a little (and
often a very little) of the story should deal with something at least
vaguely related to science.  The closest Shogun comes in this respect
is when the Anjin-san (aka Blackthorne) attempts to build a boat...

Maybe I'm a purist, but I just can't see any way of counting this as
SF.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 12:42 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Don Juan

Most people I know who have read the Don Juan series believe the
beginning to be entirely factual, the latest entirely fictional,
and no clear point anywhere in the series where the changeover
is. My personal opinion is that the first two books are probably
entirely factual, and that the fiction starts creeping in there-
after.  Or perhaps fiction isn't quite the word for it.  Much of
the series has to do with an attempt to realize altered states of
consciousness, and to use these states to gain power over reality.
Maybe parapsychology, or perhaps theology, or even anthropology
(the author's original specialty)? Carlos isn't talking.

------------------------------

Date: 22 SEP 1980 1227-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: defining SF

  Allan's first paragraph makes an important point that applies to
any attempt to define the boundaries of a category.  Unfortunately,
the extension of this gets us into a narrow, even ingrown definition
of SF.
  This definition creates severe limits both spatially and temporally.
SF was not recognized as a separate genre until perhaps the middle
1920's (the founding of AMAZING in 1926 is a commonly-used marker).
This would seem to exclude both the obvious (Wells, Verne) and the
less obvious (Shelley, Munchausen, de Bergerac, all the way back
to Lucian of Samosata) examples which have been included in recent
definitions of SF --- although the latter seem frequently to have
been included as much to gain academic respectability as to define
SF itself.
  On the other hand, using the " 'cultural' or 'extensional' "
definition, these could legitimately be included, under the argument
that there have always been those who spun tales of that which the
audience did not know of but could believe in; modern SF simply draws
a different set of beliefs from the audience. Certainly there are some
SF writers --- Poul Anderson comes to mind despite the incursions of
hard science into fantasy (flesh turned to stone is dangerous because
the silicon produced will be radioactive) --- who are descendants of
the talespinners of other times and who might survive in a more
primitive society by telling stories.  Even Asimov mentions making
up stories as a child to entertain his playmates.
  I think this again reaches toward the question of intentions.
Many contemporary authors who would call themselves (and are called)
"mundane" have none the less written works that are claimed for SF;
consider Joyce Carol Oates, Marge Percy, Isaac Bashevis Singer. (Or
consider, while controlling an impulse to gag, the indubitably
stfictional "Canopus Archives" books of Doris Lessing.)  Certainly
mundanes are acknowledged as influences by some of our best SF
writers, ranging from Ellison to Spider Robinson.  To extend Allan's
example, contemporary composers will deliberately cross or confuse
the boundaries between "serious" and [popular?] music --- consider
Deep Purple(?)'s Concerto for Group and Orchestra or David del
Tredici's inclusion of jazz groups in concert pieces.  Brubeck
happens to be an example of this I'm familiar with, since I now
sing with a concert chorus (Chorus pro Musica, oriented largely
toward "modern" "serious" music) which performed with him pieces
he'd written for piano, orchestra, and chorus; the only thing that
could set these off from "serious" music was the inconstant nature
of some of the piano solos.
  Intent also draws the line this side of Churchward and his ilk, all
of whom believe that what they say is \true/. I had quite an argument
on the other side of this point with the Noreascon proofreader, who
was incensed at my inclusion of von Daniken in the In Memoriam section
of the program book ("His believers don't think it's fiction and SF
fans don't call it SF!").  Our final decision was based on influence
and cross currents, however regrettable (John Campbell was one of his
partisans).
  The inclusion of Amis makes an interesting point; he has written
three novels which fit at three widely-separated points just within
acceptable boundaries of SF, but much of his "mundane" work concerns
an individual who is out of place in his own culture --- a variation
on the reasons given for accepting SHOGUN as SF.  Amis does in fact
share common concerns with the SF field (consider his mid-fifties
lectures at Princeton, collected as NEW MAPS OF HELL), so much so
that I was very disappointed not to find him on the program at the
Worldcon in England last year.
  In sum, defining SF by its community is potentially necessary
but not sufficient, although it is more verifiable than trying to
guess the author's intent.  This definition is in some ways not
just internal but incestuous; the cancerous extension of it has
been given as a reason for leaving the field by some of the better
writers of SF.  As one of the buyers for the world's largest SF
library I have a practical interest in locating the boundary of
SF; realistically I find such a boundary sufficiently subjective
that developed judgment is the best available guide.

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 09/22/80 14:12:37 Re:  invasion of the elves

I saw them too!!!  They came in through the electrical outlet in the
living room, and ran into the kitchen, and picked up the refrigerator,
and lashed it to their little backs and pulled it down the drainpipe
in the sink.  Then they all jumped in after it, and dissappeared.  I
turned on the disposal to stop them, but it didn't work.

I don't know, but I'm not gonna let the little buggers do it again.
Next time I cover the refrigerator with flypaper.  Or maybe I'll fill
the disposal with glue.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 SEP 1980 0658-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #86
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 24 Sept 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 86

  Today's Topics:             SF Books - Mother Goose,
                         Alien Intelligence - Communication,
                 Future Breakthrus - No Sleep, Charlie and Algernon,
                              News Event - Elf Invasion
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1980 1025-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: "The Spacechild's Mother Goose"

This came out about fifteen years ago, at the then-unheard-of
paperback price of $2.25.  It's essentially SF pastiches of
nursery rhymes; some are wonderful, some are pretty lame. But
I still remember enough to give the flavor of the book, so I
guess it stuck with me...

        "The hydrogen dog and the cobalt cat
         Side by side in the armory sat.
         Nobody talked of fusion or fission,
         They only spoke of their peacetime mission
         ..."

        "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief,
         Taffy made a living telestealing beef.
         ..."

The book is illustrated by somewhat outre line drawings.

Unfortunately my copy isn't here in Massachusetts...

	Dave

------------------------------

Date: 23 SEP 1980 1100-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Hickety-Pickety My black hen

     Hickety-Pickety my black hen
     She lays eggs in the probable when
     She doesn't lay eggs in the possible now
     As she is unable to postulate how.

The above is a misquote (I don't think I recalled it exactly
correct and my book is at home) from the first poem in "The Space
Child's Mother Goose". This book is currently in print in paperback
for about 3.50 (I believe - it may be as much as 4 or 5 dollars.)
Speak to your local bookstore of the Walden, Paperback Booksmith,
Wordsworth, Dalton variety (e.g. extensive paperbacks, fairly good
collections usually) They may have it among the children's books
(though it is not a children's book since to appreciate this book
you need to know economics, nursery rhymes, science, etc.  A very
eclectic book) or they may be able to order it for you. I received
it as a Saturnalia present two Decembers ago but recently saw it
forsale (say within the last six months) in the Harvard Coop, here
in Boston.

Another sample:

     Little Miss Muffett sat on her Tuffet
     Eating her curds and whey
     With her force field around her, 
     The spider the bounder,
     Is not in the picture today.

     This is the theory that Jack built
     This is the flaw that lay in the theory that Jack built
     This is the postulate that hid the flaw ....

The drawings through out this book are as enjoyable and well done
as the poems and the footnotes and glossary of terminology are even
better than that.  This has to be one of most favorite books (I was
brought up on it) and was pleased when I discovered it back in print.
I hope everyone reading this goes out and finds a copy to read, if
not to buy.  It is well worth it.

Gail (gfh@CCA)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1980 (Tuesday) 2213-EDT
From: WESTFW at WHARTON (William Westfield)
Subject: Dolphins...

Niven also has inteligent dolphins in a number of his works, But I
have a serious question here.  IF dolphins are intelligent, would
we ever be able to understand them?  After all, in theory, human
intelligence developed along with our capacity to make and use
tools, and dolphins obviously lack this capacity -- what kind of
intelligence would develop in this case. In the case of the Moties,
we had a very difficult time understanding them, and they were also
tool users (even more so than us). Would dolphins develop any analogs
of ANY of our sciences (maybe psychology, pure math?) that would give
us a common basis for communication/understanding?  Has anyone written
anything concerning this problem (I keep thinking I should try, but I
dont have the time, and probably dont have the ability (just look at
the spelling in this letter)).  Does anyone else have any thoughts on
this matter?

Bill W  (WestfW @ Wharton)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1980 1346-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: dolphin intelligence

The claim that dolphins are as intelligent as human beings has been
around for some time now, and yet as far as I know no one has been
able to decipher anything of the dolphin language or even proven
that there is one (that is a language beyond calls for help and the
like; one that has a grammar).  Does anyone know if they have tried
to teach dolphins some mapping of a human language like they did
with chimpanzees and sign language?  Even those experiments have
been called into doubt recently.  Simply living with a dolphin, as
that woman did, and coming to believe that they are intelligent is
hardly proof; lots of pet-owners think their dogs/cats/canaries
understand them.  They are said to have large and complex brains,
but since we don't know what most of the human brain is for it's
not a good idea to generalize.  Besides, why would a dolphin need
intelligence?  It's pretty obvious why human beings need it, but
lots of fish live the way dolphins do without needing any brains.
Sonar processing maybe?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 1019-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer)
Subject: Sleep time

I have just returned from a week in the Grand Canyon, and am catching
up on discussions.  When I had a summer job with a DP (ugh!)  firm
several years ago, the hours were fairly loose and I was basically
able to set my own schedule.  I moved into a 48-hour 'day' consisting
of 24 hours awake, about 6 hours asleep, 10 hours awake, and 8 hours
asleep.  Weekends were spent on the 'normal' 24 hour schedule.  I was
able to maintain this without strain for the summer.  I think this was
the best compromise I could work out between the 24 hour day and my
natural cycle of about 28 hours.

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 12:42 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Dreaming

I am not familiar with the "Science" article mentioned by JRDavis,
but I recall another article ("Dream Theory in Samoa") which
presented the same belief structures as a part of the primitive
Samoan tribes.

I find it interesting that our folks at Stanford have not yet
mentioned Stanford Prof. William Dement, whose experiments and
writings on Dream Theory are well known in the field of psychology.
(Perhaps he is no longer there? - He used to teach an extremely
popular course on the subject when I was there 5 years ago).

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1980 1347-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "Charlie and Algernon" review

          "Scientists Who Play God Are Going Too Darned Far"
                     From the 9/22/80 New Yorker

  The new musical at the Helen Hayes is called "Charlie and
Algernon."  Charlie is a retarded adult white male human being,
and Algernon is a white mouse.  They are being used in a medical
experiment by a couple of over-ambitious scientists, who believe
that by dint of certain chemical tamperings with the brain they can
radically improve the intelligence of both man and mouse.  Charlie
has an I.Q. of sixty-eight and is just barely capable of holding
down a job as a sweeper in a bakery; Algernon is an unexceptional
laboratory animal, whose skill at running a maze is much improved
in the course of the experiment and who then begins to falter and
regress.  Charlie responds so well to the synthetic proteins that
have been spooned into his brain that he soon attains the level of
genius - indeed, one of the doctors describes him as the smartest
man in the world -- but then he, too, falters and regresses. Alas,
by this time he has fallen in love with Alice, the pretty young
teacher who helped him to learn to read in his retarded condition
and who, with some misgivings, turned him over to the men in white.
Charlie and Alice have been contentedly living together in spite of
the fact that Charlie has far surpassed her in intellectual capacity
and has been telling her some excruciatingly tiresome things about
Bartok and other new acquaintances of his; now, his genius ebbing,
he seeks feverishly to find some means of making the experiment
succeed for retardants "in generations yet unborn." (Curiously,
Charlie at his peak has developed a prose style not unlike that
of the late General Douglas MacArthur.)
   It appears tha "Charlie and Algernon" began as a novella by
Daniel Keyes and then was made into a successful movie before its
metamorphosis into a musical.  David Rogers has written the book
and lyrics of the present work, to music by Charles Strouse, and I
have to report that have gone to the well once too often; at every
turn, they have vulgarized and sentimentalized what I would have
supposed was already a sufficiently vulgar and sentimental tale.
A clue to the nature of their enterprise may be found in the fact
that the show-stopper of the evening is a dance executed by Charlie
and Algernon.  They may not be Fred and Adele Astaire, but surely
their pas de deux is a "first" on Broadway and as such isn't to be
sneezed at (though the lady seated behind me on opening night
uttered a highly audible "Ugh!" when Algernon started crawling up
Charlie's chest, and a sneeze might well have seemed a more civil
comment).
   The difficult role of Charlie is played by P. J. Benjamin, whom I
admired for his equanimity in co-starring with a mouse and for the
conviction with which he uttered some of the most leaden prose to be
encountered this side of a box of breakfast food.  Alice is played by
Sandy Faison, who is indeed as pretty as called for and who sings more
winningly than they deserve a number of lyrics that in simplicity of
scansion and rhyme scheme are almost a match for "Tea for Two."  The
modest, wokable scenery is by Kate Edmunds, the costumes are by Jess
Goldstein, the lighting is by Hugh Lester, the choreography is by
Virginia Freeman, and the direction is by Louis W. Scheeder. "Charlie
and Algernon" is subtitled "A Very Special Musical."  I wonder whose
lack of confidence that abject-sounding "special" betrays?  It is
an adjective that through constant misuse has achieved nullity; to
describe something as special nowadays is almost to guarantee that
there is nothing special about it.

                      ----Brendan Gill

------------------------------

Date: 23 SEP 1980 1044-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Elves

It's not true!!!!! Those weren't elves you saw...they were gremlins (a
related species.  Same genus (Mythius) but a different species. Elves,
my studies have shown me belong to Mythius Elvicus, and do not steal
things that aren't nailed down - Thus I believe they took the window,
but come now, anything as mundane as a refrigerator simply isn't worth
the time and effort.  Gremlins however, belong to Mythius Gremlineus
(excuse the misplace capitals, the gremlins are at work.  They stole
my editor and I can't correct this letter.) and will steal anything,
period.  While the descriptions you have reported are not very clear,
I can safely rule out both Mythius Trolus and Mythius Dwarf-Us, since
neither of these species is currently found around windows, fridges
or houses.  Trolus is commonly found haunting his favorite feeding
patches found under a rapidly growing plant called Arches Aureus or,
locally, the Golden Arches.  Le Grandes Mac et les pommes de terre
(deep fried) are the Troll's favorite food.  Dwarf-Us, on the other
hand, is mostly found around basketball players lockers.  Further
observations on the various creatures of the genus Mythius, the genus
Forgotus and the genus Unbelievabilious, all of the family Enchanteaed
will be forthcoming.  (I also notice that the gremlins have stolen my
knowledge of the proper endings for families, genuses, etc.  Ah well,
perhaps before I write further, I will be able to steal it back.  Or
front or sideways or.... (gfh@cca-gail hormats)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 SEP 1980 0851-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #87
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 25 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 87

Today's Topics: SF Books - Firestarter & Riverworld & Roadside Picnic,
                          Future - ATMs Query, What is SF?,
                 TESB - Luke's Training, Habitats - Elves & Gremlins
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 August 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Firestarter and Stephen King

Stuart Cracraft and Jim McGrath have provided copies of a newswire
review of Firestarter and a related story on King and his success.
Copies of the material have been established in files at the sites
listed below.  Everyone should obtain the file from the site which
is most convenient for them.  If you are unable to do so, please
send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make
sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods
for providing space for the materials on their systems, and to
Stuart and Jim for making the material available to us.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI       AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS SKING
CMUA         TEMP:SKING.SFL[A210DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC    [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLOVERS-SKING.TXT
Rutgers      <SOLOMON>SKING.SFLOVERS
SU-AI        SKING.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics  >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>stephen-king.text

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1980 13:07:52-PDT
From: Cory.kalash at Berkeley
Subject: Firestarter by King

    I have read Firestarter by King (in the Phantasia limited edition
with the beautiful Whelan dust-jacket). It is an excellent book, and I
can highly recommend it.
    It is more a horror story then a tretise on Goverment interference
(although the goverment comes off VERY bad in the end).

			Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 16:47:18-PDT
From: C.dasilva@Berkeley
Subject: The Magic Labyrinth

     I have read PART of TML (Specifically the last 40 pages), and it
does indeed wrap it up in that small amount of space. I was informed
by someone who I regard as reliable in the field that this was all I
needed.
						Peter da Silva.
						(c:dasilva@berkeley).

------------------------------

DR@MIT-MC 09/23/80 15:19:50 Re: Roadside Picnic

Has anybody out there read "The Roadside Picnic" by A. Strugatskii
and would claim to have understood it?  I read it in English and
in Russian, and it didn't actually make sense in either language.
I also spoke to people who've read it, and they said (in general)
that the book probably was not supposed to make sense.  On the
other hand I know that the book was the first runner-up for the
Nebula award the same year Pohl's "Gateway" won it, so the book
is supposed to make sense (probably).  Anyhow, if there is anyone
that has both read it and understood it, I would be interested in
hearing from you.

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 09/23/80 19:04:05 Re:  Auto-tellers

     In "Door into Summer," Heinlein predicts the comuterized teller
(in passing) I'm wondering if this is original, or if another writer
preceded him.  Is this another development to put with waldoes, and
the waterbed?

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1980 15:23 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: S for Science?

In reply to JHendler@BBNA ["I always thought that the S stood for
Science"], note that many of the people in the field of SF (cf Algis
Budrys's columns that have appeared in SF-Lovers) consider the "SF"
to stand for "Speculative Fiction".  This allows it to cover stories
that take place in realistic though thoroughly fictional settings,
whether or not any "science" is used in the story.  In LeGuin's THE
DISPOSSESSED, there is very little science, unless you want to count
a rocket shuttle trip that is practically irrelevant to the story;
do you claim it's not SF?

	-- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1980 1849-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: dolphin intelligence

REDFORD said that "It's pretty obvious why humans need it
[intelligence]" but couldn't see why dolphins would.

It's not obvious to me - why do humans "need" it?  I had the
impression that it was an accidental evolutionary effect, which
was self-enforcing since it had some slight survival value (at
least in the short run - Clarke says "the survival value of
intelligence has not yet been proven").

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1980 10:42 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC

Thoughts on dolphins.

To Bill W., check out John Lilly's books on dolphins, particularly
the one I mentioned recently, "The Mind of the Dolphin".  Lilly has
spent years trying to answer just those questions you have raised.

To ICL.REDFORD, read the book mentioned above. You will find the
arguments for dolphin intelligence much more clearly stated and
documented than I was able to do in one short paragraph.  It also
shows clearly why there is a difference between the 'understanding'
of a dog or cat and that of a dolphin or chimpanzee.

The conjecture that man's ability to use tools is a major cause of his
evolutionary success has a lot of merit.  However, to assume that this
is the only way intelligence (as we know it or otherwise) can develop
is a rather parochial way of viewing things.  Communication is also an
arguable measure of intelligence, and many animals have this ability
to varying degrees.  Before we ask "Are dolphins intelligent?" we must
ask "What is intelligence?".  Doug Hofstadter, in his book "Godel,
Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid", presents a way of looking at
intelligence that is not as restrictive as most current definitions.
(I highly recommend this book to anyone, by the way.  It is published
by Basic Books in hardback, and is worth whatever you may pay for it.)
He makes a good argument for the claim that intelligence is a conse-
quence of the complexity of organization of the nervous system of an
organism.  This would imply that dolphins and whales may be (in some
sense) MORE intelligent than we are (although - read on) since it has
been shown that these mammals have brains that are more complex than
our own.  In fact, most current definitions of intelligence tend to
describe it in such a way that only humans have it.  This I believe
to be due to an inability to "step outside the system" and be truly
objective about what it is that separates us (if there is indeed
anything) from the other inhabitants of this planet.  In my view,
"intelligence" is a continuum, and not necessarily one-dimensional
at that.  Looking at dolphins from this perspective, it is ludicrous
to compare them to us and say "Are they intelligent?".  That's like
asking Flipper to take the Stanford-Binet. It ignores the possibility
of a universe outside our own in which values may not match our own.
It is precisely this possiblity that is addressed by the question
"Can we communicate with other 'intelligent' beings?".

Personally, I suspect that we will have common ground with most
'intelligent' species in the area of formal mathematics.  That field,
more than any other, derives from an attempt to distill the essence
of the universe from what we observe. And, more than any other field,
it is truly a product of the mind only.

------------------------------

Date: 24 SEP 1980 1004-EDT
From: DEE at CCA (Don Eastlake)
Subject: Yoda's instruction of Luke

     I recently saw The Empire Strikes Back again and listened to
the various statements about the force make by Yoda (and to a much
lesser extent by Ben) to Luke while attempting to train him. Having
in the past been the subject of instruction in various skills, such
as flying an airplane, where developing reflexes, avoiding getting
nervous and freezing up, and the like may be a life-and-death matter,
I have found instructors saying whatever they think will produce the
correct resultant when combined with what they think I already have
in me head.  Thus it was not that uncommon for diametricaly opposed
unqualified statements/commands to be made to me in the course of
one lesson.
     I would say that all of Yoda's statements were aimed at
producing certain attitudes and mental states in Luke and should not
be considered to be literally true.  For example, it is probably true
that if Luke thinks he will fail, this will cause him to fail, but I
doubt that size of object to be manipulated is really insignificant or
that confidence will conquor all.  Thus I think much on the discussion
in SF-LOVERS based on a literal interpretation of these statements was
misled.
     (Note also the various myths/principles of karate such as a
belief that the damage is done from a striking fist by the speed of
its withdrawl and that one should imagine a target beyond the actual
object to be struck such as aiming to hit someone's backbone from the
front.  These beliefs are probably not "true" but belief that they are
true might increase someone's speed and causes them to mentally fixate
on a point beyond the initial and possibly painful impact.)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1980 (Wednesday) 1123-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: Gremlins

  If I remember correctly, Gremlins are generally found only on
airplanes and other aerospace contraptions.  They were "invented"
by Air Force personnel to explain mysterious problems with their
planes. I suggest we invent creatures, akin to Gremlins, which are
found in computers, to explain why programs don't work when they
just did, why disk crashes necessarily occur on the one disk that
can't be backed up, etc.

Perhaps we can call them FOOs?  (That's funny... they don't LOOK
FOOish...)

            0           Dave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 SEP 1980 0817-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #88
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 26 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 88

 Today's Topics: SF Books - GEB, Alien Intelligence - Communication,
                       Habitats - Elves and Gremlins and Bugs
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1980 02:20-EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: GEB, an EGB

  Is now in paperback (trade).  -- DP@MIT-ML

  Reed.ES at PARC mentioned Doug Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher,
  Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" recently, saying it was availible
  in hardcover.  Actually, it has just come out in softcover!  I
  recommend this book extremely highly to everyone: it is thought-
  provoking, imaginative, and a LOT of fun.
                                 --  Daniel L. Weinreb <DLW at MIT-AI>

  I strongly second Reed.ES's recommendation of 'Goedel, Escher,
  Bach...', and would like to add that it is now available in trade
  paperback (Vintage Press) for *only* 8.95 (the hardback is currently
  20.50).  Beg, buy, or borrow a copy and read it.  It will change the
  way that you look at almost everything.  The only caveat I have is
  that the book will *make* you think.  If this is uncomfortable for
  you, then you should definitely read it, you need the exercise.
                                       --  Spencer <THOMAS at UTAH-20>

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 11:29 PDT
From: Dolbec at PARC-MAXC
Subject: dolphin intelligence

In reply to REDFORD's comments about dolphin and human intelligence:
I don't think it is obvious why humans need intelligence. I think it
is obvious (?) that we have some form of intelligence that is more
developed relative to other animals.  This fact does not imply that
we need it.  Natural selection would imply that we are a successful
species because we have an advanced intelligence, not that we evolved
intelligence because we needed it to survive.

The dolphin brain IS large compared to other mammals, but the ratio
of brain to body weight is about equal to man's. The motor areas are
much more developed in dolphins, in order to handle orientation in
three space and sonar navagation.

Consider the problems of trying to communicate with an alien intel-
ligence whose brain evolved to help it traverse and survive in a 3 D
world.  The difficulty arises because our own brains have evolved in
a 2 D world, we are a land based intelligence whose locomotion has
been restricted from flight until recently. I propose that the basic
selection forces are different between a 3 D world and a 2 D world
and that the "way" 3 D intelligences "think" about things might be
fundamentally different "way" 2 D intelligences "think". Consequently,
we could have a rough time trying to map our 2 D knowledge structures
to their 3 D knowledge structures and vice versa.  This will make
communication very difficult.

--Mike  

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 1234-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Intelligence

Intelligence is probably the result (in humans) of increased
development of the brain to facilitate tool-using and communi-
cation, and notably in the interaction between these two areas of
development.  Now while I wouldn't go so far as Julian Jaynes ("The
Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"), I
do think that the tool-using impetus gave rise to certain skills of
the geometric mold, eg space visualization, and communication gave
rise to certain algebraic skills, like language parsing.  If this
is true, dolphins, if intelligent, have a purely algebraic intel-
ligence, and our formal mathematics might be partly a closed book
to them, since it is heavily dependent on the geometric intuition
as well as the algebraic one.  On the other hand, there may be some
other factor than communication which may give rise to intelligence
in the case of a dolphin, (navigation?) which could supply other
mental raw material to the mix.  I think that ability, or perhaps
necessity, to translate concepts from one internal representation
to another is crucial to intelligence. I suspect that a navigation-
based intuition of space would be a better point to start out than
a tool-use one for understanding things like general relativity
(and non-Euclidean math in general).  Rigidity might be a hard
(urk) concept for such a mind. Enough rambling--any comments?

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1980 21:45-EDT
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject:  math and intelligence

In regard to Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC's comments that formal mathematics
is the most likely common ground with other intelligent species, I
would think that still doesn't get us away from tool-making type of
development of intelligence.  I am not up on history of mathematics,
but I believe applied math came way before pure math.  Engineering
type knowledge was needed to build better tools.  Of course the step
from simply making a better tool to thinking about its properties
in abstract is a sign of intelligence.  So given a tool-making
society/being one might look for abstract math (or the ability
to `abstract' in general, whatever that means) as one sign of
intelligence.  But given a society with totally different external
characteristics from our own, I'd be hard pressed to think of what
to look for as far as intelligence goes.

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 09/25/80 13:39:42
Re:  formal math and reasons for its development

     I would like to make a comment or two in response to the comments
made by Reed.ES concerning the sharing of formal mathematics with most
or all of other "intelligent" beings.  It is not clear to me that that
is necessarily the case.  I think an important distinction to make
is not whether or not the beings are tool users but a more general
although related distinction; namely, whether or not the beings are
interested in manipulating their environment be it by tools or any
other means.
     If the species is interested in manipulating the environment,
then it seems to me that they will need the ability to model the
environment in some way so that "mental" experiments can be done
and predictions made.  On a society wide basis, Homo Sapiens use
formal mathematics for this modelling.  (Your guess is as good
as mine concerning what an individual is using to predict the
trajectory that a ball will follow after leaving the individuals
hand; it certainly is not formal mathematics in the usual sense.)
     The component of the human mind that has this passion for
manipulating the environment has been labeled by Gunther Stent as
"Faustian Man" (merely a coincidence, I assure you!).  It is those
individuals in society that are interested in expanding the ways
in which man can manipulate the environment, (scientist, engineers,
etc.) that are familiar with formal mathematics.  I wonder if you
are assuming that all "intelligent" humans know formal math; an
assumption that would be patently false.
     But to get back to the point, I am willing to grant you that any
SOCIETY that as a whole has a desire to manipulate its environment,
will have ON THE SOCIETY LEVEL something very akin to formal math.
Don't expect every (Dolphin or Alpha Centaurian) to know math. This
is not really a problem, though, because we can assume that what is
desired is a SOCIETAL communication that just happens to have to take
place via individuals.
     Creatures that are just as happy to enjoy their environments
in a more passive manner, whether they are intelligent or not, may
have no need for formal math or anything of its type.  Although they
may develop formal math in an attempt to increase their aesthetic
appreciation of their environment, this seems to me to be less
likely.  I am not sure about this, but it seems to me that much less
formal math, if any, was developed by humans that were interested in
passive appreciation of their environment, for example Zen Buddhists
or Taoist.  And much more, if not all, of it was developed by very
environmentally aggressive types like the ancient Romans and
especially the Greeks (not to mention modern Western developed
nations).  Anybody care to comment on this point?
     To sum up, expecting all intelligent creatures to develop math or
its analog seems to also be a bit parochial.  This is not to say that
I am a die hard pessimist about the feasibility of communicating with
other intelligences, but I AM disturbed about what the possible common
ground will be.  As a parting example, I know an industrial artist
that works for DEC with whom I have fairly lengthy discussions and
we can almost never understand each other.  This in spite of the fact
that we are native speakers of the same language, and that he works
for a computer firm while I am a computer scientist.  Simply no common
concepts from which to build.
	Sorry for the lenghty ramblings,
	Greg Faust

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 1037-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: dolphins and math

It seems to that a lot of mathematics is driven by real world concerns
that dolphins probably wouldn't share.  Calculus and gravitational
theory went hand in hand, for instance.  Theories of computation were
pointless without computers, as was most numerical analysis.  Math
and science both seemed to take off together after the Renaissance;
it's probably no accident that the math of non-technical cultures is
child's play compared to ours (excepting the Greeks, of course, but
then the Greeks were good at everything.  A lot of geometry went
into making Greek temples, but that was probably a side effect.)
    Another problem with communicating with dolphins through math
is that, like most fields of human interest, most of it is stored in
writing.  Among human beings perhaps arithmetic could be preserved
by means of an oral tradition, but not much more.  It could be that
dolphins have the perfect memories and high speech bandwidth (and
interest) needed to preserve a significant body of knowledge.  If
they are sentient, then who knows their capabilities.  For that
matter maybe they could each figure out these things by themselves.
I wouldn't bet on it though. It's probably safer to stick to things
like "How've the tuna been running this year?" or "Say, cute kid
you've got there."  Or even "I'll teach you how to sing Mozart/warn
you of sharks/stop catching you in fishing nets if you find Russian
submarines for me."  Everybody's environment has some intersection
with everybody else's.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 09:45:58-PDT
From: C.dasilva at Berkeley
Subject: Gremlins and "bit decay"

   Computer errors are obviously not caused by Gremlins/fu's/whatever,
except in so far as they may be caused by the little elves with the
candles often found behind consoles making the lights blink. It seems
more to me that they are caused by the well known Finagles Third Law
("The perversity of the universe increases to a maximum"), and
bit-decay.  Bit decay is the effect that makes old programs less
workable than new ones.

   Similar to "bit decay" is the effects often caused by "idiot bits",
which exist on all files in a computer system and are gradually reset
as the file is accessed more and more often (ostensibly to perform
symbolic activity such as "bug fixes"). Idiot bits sometimes even
counteract the effects of bit-decay and vice versa, as they are
themselves subject to bit decay.

			Peter da Silva

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1980 15:22-EDT
From: Daniel L. Weinreb <DLW at MIT-AI>

To David Rossien: We already have little creatures that cause problems
in computer programs.  They are referred to as "bugs".

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1980 2046-EDT (Thursday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: Gremlins

    Well Dave, I don't know what you all call them at Wharton but
we call them "bugs".  They are less intelligent than Gremlins but
just as vicious.  Some of the species include Loopus Foreverus,
Deaditis Locktosa, and the deadly "Black PLA".  Beware!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 SEP 1980 0837-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #89
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 27 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:         Computer Cartoons, Future - No Sleep,
              Alien Intelligence - Communication, What is SF - Shogun,
                        Causes of Bugs - Gremlins & Astrology
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 21:58 PDT
From: lakin at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Collaborating on cartoon strip

Anyone interested in collaborating on a computer-oriented science
fiction comic strip??  A friend of mine is a veteran cartoonist
(20 years experience) and science fiction fan who conjectures that
the time might be ripe for such a venture . . . however, he does
not know that much about computers, and wishes to join forces with
a writer who can provide sound technical foundations, zany insights
and basic entertainment for the computer-oriented scifi fan.

Previous fiction writing experience would help, but the primary
requisite is interest and enthusiasm.  Contact me for further
details, and if you're really interested, send plot ideas, scripts
and/or story boards (with rough sketches of how you think things
might look).  I will put you in touch with my friend.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 1301-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>

From TIME, July 3, 1978, page 23:

Psychologist Wilse Webb of the University of Florida has found that
people sleep less than they use to.  After 20 years of study, he
reports that the national average is 7.5 hours of sleep per night.
60 years ago it was 9.0 hours.

Also, Will Dement still is at Stanford and is engaged in research.
His course, Sleep and Dreams, was one of the two most popular courses
given here (the other one? - Human Sexuality).  However, the grant he
was using to pay for the course ran out, as did alternate funding.
Thus a very worthwhile course could become extinct here. 

Any people here who have taken the course? (or a similar one
elsewhere?)

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1980 1357-EDT
From: SRAJUNAS at BBNC
Subject: Evolution of Intelligence

What about the ideas expressed in Leakey's "People of the Lake"
concerning the evolution of intelligence?  There is a claim that
during the long period between the earliest stone-age "tool kit"
and the first "tool kit" to show any significant advances over
it humans made tremendous evolutionary strides (such as greatly
increased skull size).  The theory of tool-making as the stimulus
for the evolution of intellignce is set aside.  The growing com-
plexity of human society and the need for cooperation (definitely
a survival skill) is suggested as a better fit to the "facts"
(guesswork by anthropologists).  I have no idea if Leakey's
theories are currently accepted.

Susan Rajunas

------------------------------

Date: 26 SEP 1980 1106-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Greeks, Romans, and math

  With regard to environmental aggression, the traditional view is
just the other way around: that the Greeks were theoreticians whose
work was applied by the Romans (e.g., the Greeks invented the arch
and the Romans built aqueducts). There is even the traditional legend
of a student being thrown out of one of the great Greek schools of
geometry for having the gall to ask what use all these proofs were.

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1980 2227-EDT (Friday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject: Intelligence & Survival

Contrary to "Mike's" point of view, I do believe that our intelligence
has been a matter of survival. Indeed our resourcefulness is often all
that is between us, and becoming someone else's dinner.  Let's face
it... in such cases, its think, or be eaten.  I doubt, however, that
something so trivial as dimensional navigational skills are going to
become a primary barrier to communication with other species.  The
difference between beings who had and had not developed intra-being
communication, verbal or otherwise, for instance, should prove a
profoundly more significant barrier.  Let us not be too cocky, though.
Our intelligence hasn't made us any more successful as a species than
a cockroach.  In fact, the latter has, by all indications, been around
a lot longer than us, is currently thriving, and will probably be
inheritor of the earth, once we've decided that "since we can't have
it all, we're going to blow it up."

     Another note on the same line... Recall the Trouble with
Tribbles...  Didn't McCoy say that more than half of their bodily
systems were reproductive in nature?  Consider the tape worm...
Something like 99% reproductive sructures.  It doesn't even have
need for a digestive track, as its host takes care of that for it.
No need for eyes, no need for intelligence, no need for locomotion,
or communication.  Ahh, the easy life of passive consumption and
reproduction.  Of course, though, when we go, they go.  Long live
the CockRoach !!!

-warren

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 19:14:17 EDT
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: dolphin intelligence

I once heard that cetaceans (dolphins/whales) were the only species
(other than humans) know to be sexually active all the time.  Maybe
that's an indication of their intelligence...

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1980 at 1923-CDT
From: wilcox at UTEXAS 
Subject: alien intelligence

There is a quote (author forgotten at the moment) to the effect that:

     No alien being will ever be found by mankind with an intelligence
greater than our own.  We made up the test!

                                   --Jim

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 0800-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI
Subject: SHOGUN, Historical basis

The story covered in SHOGUN is based, more or less, on historical
fact. As the old DRAGNET series said, only the names were changed.

The character of Blackthorn represented an Englishman named Adams who
was shipwrecked by a typhoon in 16 something.  He became a samuri and
an advisor to one of the local warlords.  He is regarded as something
of a minor legendary figure in Japanese history and his grave is
visited by pilgrims on the anniversary of his death (sometime in May.)

Adams' "Lord" did indeed become Shogun.  Unfortunately I do not
remember his name, although it did begin with a "T".  The character of
the interpreter is a fabrication of Clavell.  Her presence is totally
inconsistent with Japanese culture, as may be evidenced by the status
of women in Japan today.

Clavell has taken Japanese history and liberally applied poetic
license.

For those of you who are interested (and have the opportunity)
The WASHINGTON POST had a very good article on this same subject
on Sept. 17.

The question of course remains, does this historic basic make
SHOGUN any more or less SF ? Does the fact that many of Jules
Verne's "predictions" have come to pass make his literature
less SF ?

We seem to be playing semantic games.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1980 1010-PDT
From: Alan at LBL-Unix (Alan B. Char (BKY))
Subject: SHOGUN

I think all of the argument around SHOGUN and SF is amusing, but I
think that the perspective is about as one-sided as that in the movie.
Ask someone in Tokyo (where both a shorter 2.5 hour movie as well as
the five-day/twelve hour TV series showed) if s/he thought SHOGUN was
Science Fiction or not.  You'll probably get laughed in the face. Many
Japanese do not even consider SHOGUN good fiction.  It overemphasizes
the violence in feudal Japan.  Westerners should not think that
beheadings and seppuku were regular occurances, much the same as the
western frontier was not all shoot-outs and fighting off Indians,
although it did go on.  The affair between Mariko and Blackthorne was
a useful literary tool, both as a crossing point between cultures and
adding to the plot, but many Japanese consider it totally unrealistic
for that period of time.  The TV series took these (and other) minor
mistakes and magnified them about twelve-fold.  Because they never
did any translating or sub-titling, you never got a good view of the
Japanese perspective.  Also, the intrigue got very confusing if you
had not read the book ahead of time.  I personally was much disap-
pointed in the series, since I had already read the book.  I felt
that you never really got to know the Japanese characters (in spite
of the fact that they effect more drama with there eyes than most
American "actors" do speaking), and that there personalities and
motivations were unclear.  Toronaga and Mariko were exceptions in
that they both lived up to my expectations, but I wonder how much
I was filling in from my vivid memories from the book and how much
was actually presented by the series.  One thing that bothered me
about the "Blackthorne" perspective of the series is that he seemed
too much in control, when in the book it was obviously the other way
around.  Another interesting point on the SF/HistF question: SHOGUN
was based on the rise of the Tokugawa regime in Japan, so it is much
more HistF than presenting a historical setting.  It actually uses
events from history, like other historical novels.  At any rate, I
just thought I'd throw in some other viewpoints of the series, since
while you people cannot seem to agree as to whether SHOGUN is SF or
not, you all seem to agree that (a) it was good fiction, and (b) the
Japanese culture of the time was adequately presented.  Other people
would not agree.  One thing about SF: You're not about to run into a
Fremen who will differ in your opinion about DUNE.

--Alan Char

------------------------------

Date: 24 SEP 1980 1158-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Re: Gremlins

Still It may be that Foo's (if you will) are only a sub-species of
Gremlins and not yet a distinct and seperate species.  Many species
are known to readily adapt to new environments, learning new behaviors
and new foods, etc.  Thus (yes, I knew the origin of gremlins) I still
contend that what is bolluxing me are gremlins.  (Greebles are another
sub-species of gremlins also.)  Gail (gfh@cca)

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1980 1657-EDT (Thursday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A

One does not need gremlins; this implies a malicious or at least
intelligent force acting to screw things up.  Personally, I have
always felt that astrology, although not applicable to people,
probably is more relevant to computers.  The erratic behavior of
some is probably due to the positions of stars rather than any
intelligent influence.

I have also seen necromancy practiced by our support staff; reading
the future of the processor from the entrails of a dead interface
board or power supply has been fairly reliable.

The astrology idea may not be far off; energy beams from black
holes could be sweeping across our computers regularly.
                                        joe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 SEP 1980 0540-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #90
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 28 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 90

 Today's Topics: Halloween Yoda, Future - Blood and "The Jigsaw Man",
                 SF Books - Plot/Title & Picnic & Keyes & Zelazny
                 & Pangborn..., What is SF? - Shogun & Purity League,
                              Causes of Bugs - Gremlins
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 1414-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Yoda masks

     I recently found a very good looking, hard rubber, full-head
covering Yoda mask at a costume store.  The mask was selling for
$45.00.  Does anyone know whether this is a good price?  At that
rate, it probably isn't worth it for Halloween, but if one were
available for just a bit less . . . .
                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 2011-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: First steps to 'The Jigsaw Man'

A jail in Chicago has a new (controversial) program imported from a
couple other states that had been doing it for a while. The program:
paying prisoners to give their blood.  Those of you Niven fans out
there might remember a short story by him called 'The Jigsaw Man'
in which the organ banks don't pay the prisoners for their organs.
Maybe that'll be the next step.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 23 September 1980  15:46-EDT
From: John A. Pershing Jr. <JPERSHING at BBNA>
Subject: What's the Title?

I have an orphan plot in search of its title.  It is the story of a
future society in which absolute equality has been legislated [by
congress].  The implementation consists of artificially handicapping
"normal" people to bring everyone down to a common-denominator level.
E.g. folks who are faster-than-normal runners must wear sandbags to
slow them down.  Someone has suggested that this is a Kurt Vonnegut
short story.

Also, was this ever made into a movie?  I seem to remember WATCHING
it as opposed to reading it.

  -jp

[ This story recently came up during a discussion in HUMAN-NETS. Joe
  <Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A> and Dan <DGSHAP at MIT-AI> identified it
  as "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut. It is also available in
  the Vonnegut collection WELCOME TO THE MONKEY HOUSE, Crispin's
  BEST SF 7, and Boardman's AN ABC OF SCIENCE FICTION.       --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1980 12:42 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC

Re: Lauren's Plot Query [ SFL V2 #78 ]

I recall a novel called "Why Bring Them Back From Heaven?" by Clifford
Simak (or perhaps R.A.Lafferty?).  The details are vague (it's been
over ten years), but I seem to remember something about the hijacking
of bodies, etc.

Re: Moderan

I too have read it, and enjoyed it.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1980 at 0930-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: Nebulas & WRHN

     In response to DR@MC's comment about Strugatsky's book, I
started composing several flames in my head, and decided upon the
low-key observation that the members of SFWA (who vote on the Nebulas)
often do unusual things, and Nebula vote patterns are sometimes not
easily explained.  The same is true of the Hugo, of course, but the
oddball decisions there are usually due to crowd-pleasing while Nebula
votes are just plain strange.

     Those who are familiar with fanzine fandom might be interested
in Rich Bergeron's Warhoon 28.  This is the Walt Willis Issue, and
is actually a hardbound book of about 500 pages: one of the most
staggering fan publishing events I've ever seen.  It is well worth
the $25 as it contains some of the finest fan writing I have ever
seen. His two trip reports on his two trips to America are some of
the best travel writing you'll find outside of "Innocents Abroad".

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1980 2333-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Keyes, Zelazny, SF classification, Farmer, and Pangborn

Having been to my parents' house I have been able to consult my SF
collection (this is usually a feat along the lines of consulting
the Oracle at Delphi for all the good it does me)

Daniel Keyes also wrote the following stories:

   1) Crazy Maro
   2) The Quality of Mercy

according to my copy of "Space Mail" they both appeared in 1960 and
were both good, or so the book says.  Is this proof that Keyes wasn't
a one shot outsider?

Other than the three Zelazny short story collections already mentioned
I don't know of any.

I don't know about any one else but I think we should stuff fantasy
into a box somewhere under SF on the organizational chart.  And after
doing that we should forget trying to classify and just enjoy our
reading.  We should leave classifying to the English majors.  They're
going to do it anyway and will just ignore our comments (they have all
along that's why SF has always been in the sub-genre class somewhere).
Unless we can convince William Tenn to do the classifying.  By the
way the oldest story I have ever heard claimed for SF is by Lucien of
Samsota. I don't know the date of the story but it goes back ancient
Greece.

Farmer's "Magic Labyrinth" does indeed tie up all the loose ends,
except maybe for one.  While the book does do all the tying up it
doesn't do it in a satisfactory way, well I and some friends didn't
like it.  It probably would have been better if the series had been
finished several years ago while Farmer was still in the original
frame of mind about it.  I think the book had the same problem that
Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love" had, to much time had passed since
the earlier material wa written and as a result the author lost the
original perspective on the work.

Last but not least, did anyone else notice that a Pangborn book
has been reissued.  "Mirror for Observers" something like that.
Pangborn fans forgive my ignorance, as I have said before I can
never remember titles correctly.  Maybe we will get a reissue of
"Davy" soon.  I hope so, I've heard lots of nice words about it.
I also noticed a story by Mary Pangborn in "Universe 10", I don't
know if this is her own story or her polishing and finishing of
one of Edgar Pangborn's.

Well I've finally run down so, so long for now.

     Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 27 SEP 1980 1211-EDT
From: DEE at CCA (Don Eastlake)
Subject: SHOGUN

     I have relatives in Tokyo that I visited after the book had
come out.  They certainly didn't think much of it as regards
historical accuracy, particularly the prevalence and distribution
of priests. etc.
     On the status of women: I was in Tokyo to present a paper at the
VLDB conference.  About 80% of the attendees were Japanese, the rest
mixed from all over though most North American.  Of the relatively
small number of people presenting papers, only one from the USA was
a woman.  Of the much larger audience of non-presenters, only one
Japanese woman was ever present and that was at one talk during
which she surrendered her seat to an older Japanese gentleman.
                                                Donald Eastlake

(PS: My great-great-grandfather, William Clark Eastlake, was the first
     western dentist in Japan, arriving shortly after it was re-opened
     by Commodre Perry.  He is buried in Aoyama cemetery in Tokyo.)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1980 1124-EDT
From: KERN at RUTGERS
Subject: LEAGUE FOR THE PURITY OF SF....

     Here are two comments about Chip Hitchcock's essay 'defining
SF' of 9/23. I know that this comes late, but certain overtones to
the message kept bothering me.  Somehow I get the idea that there
is a 'League for the Purity of SF' out there that doesn't appreciate
fiction in general.

1) Are there any SF fans other than myself who enjoyed Doris Lessing's
   Canopus in Argos series? These books seem to disgust SF reviewers
   (besides Mr. Hitchcock, the reviewer in F&SF).  I found the first
   2 books elegantly written, imaginative in their use of archetypes,
   and fully committed to the the examination of being that Olaf
   Stapledon did so well.  (Lessing claims that she was influenced
   by Stapledon; while I wouldn't say that her Canopus books were as
   good as his, they're certainly in the same league.)  It seems to
   me that hardcore SF fans are most upset that she doesn't follow
   certain SF conventions. (I feel that she made a few gaffes but
   that these don't detract from the themes of the books.)

2) Whence came the expression 'mundane' in reference to "non-SF"
   authors? This sounds like some elitist term from the depths of
   the SF ghetto.  Look, all fiction springs from an act of the
   imagination.  Most fiction in any category will not arise from
   any deep plumbing of the imagination, but in every field there
   is fiction that rises above the designation 'mundane'. (I know,
   you're trying to use 'mundane' to mean 'earthbound', but it
   really only is lack of imaginative depth that keeps fiction
   on the ground.)

Forgive my flaming. I hope there are some other SF Lovers around who
share my opinions about fiction.

-K B Kern

------------------------------

Date: 26 SEP 1980 1508-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Gremlins, bugs, et. al

Bugs are clearly caused by Gremlins passing in the night.  If you
sense - the mark of the individual maker) of whichever gremlin was
around.

------------------------------

Date: 25 SEP 1980 1024-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: gremlins

GREMLINS DO NOT EXIST!
                        /Yang TN

------------------------------

Date: 25 SEP 1980 1354-EDT
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Re: gremlins

In response to your message sent  25 SEP 1980 1025-EDT

Gremlins Do TOO EXIST !!!!  ET/AE449

p.s What does YTN know?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 2022-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: GREMLINS AND BUGS

It's all quite simple, really.  Gremlins are the new species of
super-bug.  Gerry Weinberg provided this perspective several years
ago in a paper in The General Systems Yearbook that demonstrated
quite conclusively that the principles of natural selection applied
to the survival of bugs in complex software.  Only the strongest
survive. And like boll weevils that develop resistance to DDT and
become super-weevils, gremlins are the bugs that have developed
resistance to computational DDT.
                Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 SEP 1980 0736-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #91
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 29 Sept 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:   SF Movies - Horror Express, SF TV - Vonnegut,
            SF Books - Scavengers, Alien Intelligence - Communication,
            What is SF - Bible, Causes of Bugs - Gremlins & Astrology,
                      TESB - Hamill's accident & Who's who?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 at 2114-CDT
From: wilcox at UTEXAS 
Subject: Horror Express

Just saw on TV a movie called Horror Express (1972, Peter Cushing,
Christopher Lee, Telly Savalis).  Our intrepid heros are aboard a
Russian train from China with a prehistoric alien from outer space
that sucks intelligence out of its victims through their eyes (and
leaves their brain smooth, no convolutions).

Strictly grade-B, but funny.  See it with someone wierd!

                        --Jim

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1980 0220-EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron

  The general plot from "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut was used
  in a movie called "Between Time and Timbuktu" which I believe was
  made for PBS quite a few years ago (over 7).  It is often shown
  on college campuses and I highly recommend it.  It is a collage of
  segments from various of Vonnegut's works, mostly short stories.
                                     --  Dwight Hare <DHare at SRI-KL>

  Yesterday someone mentioned that they remembered watching the short
  story Harrison Bergeron by Vonnegut.  This was included in the movie
  Between Time and Timbuktu which was made for TV I think.  Lots of
  other pieces of stories appeared in this movie.
                                  --  <JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics>

  For those who have never seen "Between Time and Timbuktu", there is
  a tradepaperback book version of the script which includes photos
  from the PBS television production.           --  D. DuWayne Rodgers

  The theme of equality through handicapping also appeared in
  Vonnegut's "Sirens of Titan" as part of the teachings of "The
  First Church of God, The Utterly Indifferent".
                                            --  Jim <Wilcox at UTEXAS>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1980 1119-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: review of "Scavengers"

"Scavengers" by a newcomer named David Skal is good stuff.  Maybe
a little overheated, but that only shows that there's fire inside.
Remember those old experiments where they cut up flatworms and fed
them to other flatworms to see if any memories got transferred?
(Aside: you might want to find "The Wormrunner's Digest" in the
periodical section of your local library.  It'll be way in the
back next to the "Journal of Irreproducible Results") The thesis
here is that the same process can be extended to human beings. By
grinding up someone's brain and injecting bits of it into your own
you can almost become that person for one night.  So what happens
is that the most creative and most adventurous people get beheaded
in the night and their brains are fed to the colorless masses. It's
highly illegal, of course, but it's the ultimate escapism: better
than television, better than LSD, better even than science fiction.
In a way, too, it's the ultimate art form, direct contact between
the artist's mind and that of the audience.
   The protagonist is in love with an artist who is fascinated by
these "brainstormers".  She (the artist) gets taken by them, but he
is not about to let a Mixmaster stand between him and his love.  He
searches the city for the syringes containing her and then finds a
girl roughly like her physically.  He plans to inject the girl with
enough of his old lover's memories that she will be recreated in a
new body.  The girl is a brainstorming addict and so doesn't mind,
at least not at first.
   Gruesome, eh? Yep. It's a fresh idea, though, on an old piece of
science.  He gets into a lot of kind of sophomoric discussions of
spontaneity vs preservation in art, but, hey it hasn't been so long
since I was a sophomore.  Recommended.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1980 1156-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: intelligence and survival

Up until about ten thousand years ago it was clear that intelligence
did have survival value.  Humanity was following the well-worn path
of the successful new species of mammal, spreading out into new areas
and new ecological niches and diverging into separate species in the
time-honored way. Oh, there were intimations that something was wrong
(right); bears and wolves didn't go crawling into caves to paint
buffalo or carve figurines of fertility goddesses.  But people were
wandering around this planet for tens, maybe hundreds of thousands
of years before it became clear that a complex brain was different
from a sharper claw or a faster pounce.  All of a sudden they started
manipulating and molding plants and other animals, a perogative Nature
had reserved for herself.  Nature hasn't been too happy about it ever
since.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 13:37:45-PDT
From: C.dasilva at Berkeley
Subject: Dolphin Intelligence and 3-D vs 2-D thinking, Bugs, etc...

     It seems to me that the latest phase of BOTH human and dolphin
intelligences occured in a 3-D environment, even if it was more so
for them. According to one theory the last two "recent" phases of
human evolution occured in trees (3-D), and sea shore (2-D/3-D)
habitats. It may be that Intelligence REQUIRES a 3-D (more complex
than 2-D) environment to develop. I think that I originally read
somthing about this in "Manwatching" by Desmond Morris.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 1621-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: pickiness about english

I realize that my english isn't perfect but.... 
Surely we sf readers should know enough about english not to use
the word "there" when we mean the word "their".  No wonder so many
mainstreamers regard SF as a ghetto.  Wiliam Tenn would be ashamed
of us.

	steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1980 1120-EDT
From: SHULMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: Earliest SF & gremlins

In regards to the earliest SF known:

Has anybody considered the Bible as a candidate?  If you're considering
Shogun, why not the Bible?  After all Moses must have used the 'force'
to split the Red Sea?

In regards to gremlins:

      Who/what do you think empties the 'bit buckets'?

                                            Jeff

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 09/27/80 11:19:31

This talk of gremlins does not recognize the fact that almost all
of the species cited are sub-families of Maxwell's Demons, which
"enforce" the laws of entropy.  Their universal abhorence of order
cannot abide correctly running programs, neat desks, or clear ideas.
The damn things get into *everything*, wreaking havoc and muddle
throughout the known universe(and the unknown as well....)  We poor
mortals may only lie in frenzied hacking (also known as debugging)
to fight the undending curse of these beasts.  So join their battle
for disorder!

			UNITE FOR CHAOS!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 1050-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: Computers and Astrology

Certainly computers are influenced by cosmic events.  In fact,
there was a recent Scientific American column on the interaction
between cosmic rays and the new memory chips (64k bits).  It seems
that the number of electrons that represent a bit is only half the
number produced by an alpha particle interacting with silicon.
Charged particles are produced by cosmic rays or radioactive decay
in the trace uranium or thorium in the chip package.  This failure
mode "is characterized by elusive and evanescent errors, which
appear at random only to show up again somewhere else."

It is also well-known, at least at MIT, that the phase of the moon
has a strong effect on the behavior of programs.  Bugs which cannot
be reproduced are characterized as "phase of the moon" bugs. It was
for this reason that program listings include the p.o.m. on the
title page.

	Dave

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss some behind the scenes details about The Empire Strikes Back.
People who have not seen this movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 1028-PDT
From: Geoffrey C. Mulligan <GEOFFM at RAND-AI>
Subject: Rumor

   I was wondering if someone could confirm the rumor I heard about
TESB and Mark Hamill.  I heard that right before the shooting of TESB
Mark had a motorcycle accident.  He required some plastic surgery to
reconstruct his face.  Although the surgery was fairly successful, it
wasn't perfect and as a result they added the scene with the snow
monster to cover for his slightly changed face.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1980 at 2351-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB: Who Dueled Whom When/Where? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you saw the "Making of TESB" special last week, you will have
noted that the dueling was 'choreographed' and, in part, actually
performed by the dueling master rather than by Dave Prowse.  My
Friend The Ultimate SW Fan and I knew this quite a while back and
have been arguing desultorily as to \which/ segment of the duel
has what we loyally refer to as "the fake Vader".

There are 3 segments to the duel which can be roughly identified
by major locale--
   in the freeze-chamber
   in the room where Luke gets blown out the window
   from a room, out onto the gantry Luke falls from.
We are agreed that the middle segment is NOT the one.  But both the
initial and the final segments are shot from angles neutralizing
the height distinction between the tall "fake Vader" and the very
tall "real Vader".

One of us says the first segment has the "fake Vader" because he
not only duels so effortlessly, but often even singlehandedly.
The other argues that it's the last segment because there "Vader"
changes his cat-and-mouse tactics to a savage attack, and it takes
an expert to "pull his punches" without it being obvious.

MFTUSWF is going to ask Dave, the next time she talks to him, and
I'll relay the answer as to which and who was right.  Meanwhile...
like Gary Kurtz at NOREASCON... what do YOU think?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 SEP 1980 0529-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #92
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 30 Sept 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 92

Today's Topics: Reporters Wanted, SF Books- Davy & ... & Dragon's Egg,
                         Alien Intelligence - Communication,
                        What is SF? - Shogun & Purity League,
                 Causes of Bugs - Gremlins,  TESB - Hamill's Accident
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1980 1356-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Asimov and TREK at MIT

From the AI BBOARD I gather that Gene Roddenberry and Issac Asimov
will be lecturing at MIT very soon (Oct 1 and 13 respectively).

I know that many Boston area SF-LOVERS will be attending.  So could
someone possibly cover these talks for SF LOVERS?  (like Bruce and
Richard covered the Worldcon - ie a write up of what was done and
said, critical comments, etc...).

Many thanks from all those SFLers far, far away (like me in the
Bay Area).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 29 SEP 1980 1233-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: DAVY

  I seem to recall that it was reissued relatively recently. I
remember the reissue primarily because of the cover, which was
an excellent painting but a lousy match for the story; Davy was
shown as a 300+-pound mesomorph, looking like a heavy-duty Arnold
Schwarzenegger when the book repeatedly describes him as wiry.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1980 2054-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: latest Clement

Has anyone read the latest Hal Clement book? Is it worth buying?

[ The title of the book is Nitrogen Fix ... - RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1980 at 1448-CDT
From: wilcox at UTEXAS 
Subject: equality

Would someone check on that "Why Bring Them Back From Heaven"
reference?  I too have read it, but can't find it in my collection
at the moment.  Which leads me to believe that the title may be
wrong. I do remember that the above phrase was carried on signs by
protesters trying to stop the re-awakening of frozen "corpsicles".

              --Jim

------------------------------

Date:  28 September 1980 19:12 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics

"Why Call Them Back From Heaven" dealt with storm of controversy over
advanced medical technology capable of resuscitation.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1980 at 2259-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NEW SF AVAILABILITY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Chalker's TWILIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS, the last in the series,
is out in p/b from DelRey.

DRAGON'S EGG is available as an alternate SFBC selection! Not as
much of a mark-down as usual, but SUPPORT SF-L'ers!

------------------------------

Date:  30 September 1980 03:46 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Greeks and Romans

The Greeks did not invent the arch; they didn't even use the arch,
they used the pillar and lintel (uprights and cross pieces).  The
Roman arch (along with most of the physical characteristics of
their civilization) was an Etruscan invention.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1980 10:26 PDT
From: Klose.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SHOGUN and KUNG FU

If you consider SHOGUN to be SF, then why not include the TV series
KUNG FU?  Obviously Carradine plays a Chinese monk who is stranded
in an alien culture with customs and ways which are strange and
different than his own.  Or how about A MAN CALLED HORSE or LITTLE
BIG MAN; two movies which deal with a white man having to learn and
adjust to Native American culture.  There's also the movie WALKABOUT,
which takes place in Australia and has a boy and his sister, stranded
in the outback, who meet up with and are helped by an aborigine. Both
parties experience the culture gap which exists between them.  The
point is, that just because a story deals with the clash between two
cultures, it doesn't have to be classified as SF.  If one or more of
the cultures has been invented by the author, then it most likely
can be classified as SF (meaning Speculative Fiction). Applying this
criterion, 1984 (life in totalitarian England) is SF and ONE DAY IN
THE LIFE OF IVAN DENISOVICH (life in prison under totalitarian Russia)
isn't.  The society of 1984 is the invention of the writer, the second
society really existed.

- Paul 

------------------------------

Date: 29 SEP 1980 1346-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: league for the purity of what?

  An admittedly less-than-thorough examination of Lessing's work leads
me to conclude that her primary faults are bad (i.e., clumsy, awkward,
[difficult without the extra levels that make Joyce, etc. difficult])
writing, excessive moralizing, and trite plotting with no refreshing
elements (SHIKASTA in particular strongly resembles what Bova called
the "tomato surprise story").  On the other hand, I admit that I've
never been very impressed with Stapledon, either; I'll acknowledge
that this may be a matter of taste while observing that various
mundane reviewers also seem unimpressed with the Canopus Archives.
  In fact, I expect that most "hardcore SF fans" (however few of
them are left) will simply ignore Lessing. I don't care whether she
"follows conventions"; anyone who is \good/ at an artform will break
the rules and make you see why it is as right and necessary to break
rules in the given context as it is to hold fast to them otherwise.
(Granted, this is easier to see in formal music than in writing,
but the frangibility of rules holds true for all artforms.)  The one
convention whose breakage annoys me is that the characters should be
drawn in such a way that I can care what happens to them; obviously
this is a subjective test, but it is the factor in which several
authors (e.g., Christopher Priest) consistently fail my expectation.
(I also think the authors who claim they aren't competing for the
readers' beer money are fooling themselves, and maybe snobs to boot;
maybe their readers spend beer money on Glenfyddich instead, but
it's still a competition for their recreational money and attention.)
  As for "mundane" being an insulting term, that depends on where
and how you use it. If you call people at an SF convention "mundanes"
you'll probably annoy some of them; there the term tends to mean the
people who gape at the costumes and wander away tapping their heads.
When the term is used of writers it can simply mean those who \by/
\their/ \own/ \definitions/ do not write SF --- I specifically said
in the msg in question that there was a matter of intent.  (I think
I'll officially christen this Garrett's criterion, after Randall
Garrett's TOO MANY MAGICIANS: "Black magic is a matter of symbolism
and intent.")  There are wide enough gaps dividing "literature"
(Saul Bellow?), popular writing (Jacqueline Susann?) and SF that
it is possible to draw, not a line, but a zone showing some authors
bridging the gaps and others definitely in one of the divisions, and
it is convenient to many of us to have the zones drawn.
  If you're thinking I don't appreciate fiction in general, you're
right; I find the incidence of self-indulgence, navel-scanning, and
limitation of imagination even higher in mundane writing than I do in
SF.  I don't deny -- in fact I celebrate -- that some of the material
I like on both sides of the gap reflects a bridging of the gap by a
specific author; Kuttner and Kornbluth both had substantial mundane
reputations, and John D. MacDonald wrote a \lot/ of SF in his youth
(the recently-published collection is less than half of his shorter
work).  But I do see that many of the principles of mundane writing
--- principles whose following gains the writers favorable criticism
and/or good reviews and sales --- are tangentially or diametrically
opposed to what I and many of the SF readers I know enjoy.  Aside
from my practical interest as an SF librarian, I don't believe in an
SF Purity League, and I snicker at the J. J. Pierces who try to form
them; the field doesn't deserve that kind or direction of effort.
(Damon Knight, considering the charge that there is grown out of
his writers' conference at Milford a "conspiracy to rig awards and
elections, worship turkeys, and so forth", quotes P. G. Wodehouse
hearing the accusation that he was planning to subvert the French
government: " 'But one has so little time.' ")
  Now \I've/ gone into an over-long flame; let's see if there's
anyone else who doesn't think we've beaten this to death yet.

------------------------------

ZEMON@MIT-AI 09/27/80 14:23:04

     Seeing Bottoms-10 work correctly and not crash for a week,
even with the system choking for lack of disk space, is enough to
make a person believe in magic.  Could there be \helpful/ gremlins
inside that machine?  Perhaps there are two factions; one fighting
(naturally) for Good, and the other siding with the dark side of
the Force.
     When next I hear that <thump> SCREEEEEECH! near the disk drive
that's being backed up, I know that if I lift the cover and look
inside the cabinet, that I will find two Gremlins fighting each
other over the controller board, one trying to put +Vcc and the
other trying to put Gnd onto the infamous CRASH_HEAD line.
     Excuse me, but I gotta go mash some Gremlins.

------------------------------

Date: 28 September 1980 2126-EDT (Sunday)
From: Jeffrey.Lomicka at CMU-10A (C621JL12)
Subject:  Bugs and Gremlins

Mike has got to be off the track, Super Bugs were made by
Volkswagon, Gremlins are made by American Motors.......

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 09/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
some behind the scenes details about The Empire Strikes Back.  People
who have not seen this movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 29 SEP 1980 1215-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Hamill's new face

  I recall reading about this quite some time before the date
given for the beginning of filming for TESB, and doubt that the
snow monster was added; Hamill was in fact quoted shortly after
SW4 opened as saying that he was supposed to get substantially
older in the course of the three films, specifically that he was
supposed not to have attained his full growth at the time of SW4
"but this is as far up as I'm growing!" (he is mid-late(?) 20's,
I think).
  Also, there is other evidence (such as the TESB illustrated
storybook and the diary-format MAKING OF TESB by the publicist)
that the snow creatures originally had a much larger role; they
infiltrated the base and at one point came crashing through one
of the ice walls that made up the corridors.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 OCT 1980 0741-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #93
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Wednesday, 1 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 93

 Today's Topics: SF History - Clarke's Law & Asimov/Clarke Agreement,
                  SF TV - Vonnegut, SF Books - Why Bring Them Back,
                       Causes of Bugs - Gremlins & Astrology,
                        TESB - Hamill's Accident & Who's Who
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1980 23:40:12-EDT
From: D. DuWayne Rodgers <DUWARS at MIT-AI>
Subject: SF Lore

     In looking through back issues of SFL, I noticed an account of
the circumstances that led to Sturgeon's Law.  I am now wondering
about the circumstances that gave us Clarke's Law (Any sufficiently
advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.) and the
Asimov/Clarke Agreement. Can anyone explain or provide a pointer
to the appropriate references?

Thanx,
DuWayne

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1980 0914-PDT (Monday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Vonnegut Story

   The Vonnegut story in question was dramatized on public television
as part of a rather weird program called "Between Time and Timbuktoo"
which was a hashing together of elements of a number of Vonnegut
stories.
        Mike

------------------------------

MOON@MIT-MC 09/30/80 22:50:16

Since people seem to be confused, it is worth pointing out that
Why Call Them Back from Heaven is by Philip Jose Farmer.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1980 13:37:45-PDT
From: C.dasilva at Berkeley
Subject: Bugs

     As for Gremlins, I agree with Joe's argument that it does not
require a malevolent force to cause "bugs" or "bit decay", although
such a force would be necessary to explain "idiot bits".  The big
problem is that people really think that "bug fixing" is a physical
activity, when it is obvious that it is purely a set of symbolic
rites using the Laws of Similarity and Contagion.  For further
information on these laws read "The Complete Enchanter" by L.
Sprague de Camp, or "Too Many Magicians" by Randall Garret.

                                Peter da Silva.

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 09/29/80 16:58:37 Re: Were-programs

     Regarding PDL's description of a certain class of bugs which
are jokingly said to depend on the phase of the moon...

     Don't laugh.

     I know of at least one confirmed bug that did, in fact, vanish
and re-appear with the waxing and waning of the moon.

     It turned out that the date/time calculation subroutine was also
computing a variable-length "phase-of-the-moon" string into a space
that was just a little bit too small, and at maximum elongation some
variable or pointer would be clobbered.  Thus, as the string waxed and
waned, likewise the program would crash and run.  I forget who finally
discovered it.

     And let ITS readers not forget that, in times of trouble, their
hopes for a healthy system must indeed be pinned upon the phase of the
(David A.) MOON.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 September 1980  10:31-EDT
From: John A. Pershing <JPERSHING at BBNA>
Subject: ZEMON@AI's Botoms-10 System

Actually, in this case it is probably astrological factors at work,
rather than helpful gremlins.  For the past week, the moon has
been waning (from full to 3rd qtr.), and moving into a position 90
degrees from Jupiter.  Definitely a time for being well-disciplined
and orderly.

  -jp

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/01/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss some behind the scenes details about The Empire Strikes Back.
People who have not seen this movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1980 0321-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Hamill's face

My (usually good) sources tell me that Mark did indeed suffer a rather
serious accident before filming began, and reconstructive surgery was
not entirely successful.  In fact, if you looked closely during the
"SPFX" TV show that discussed Empire (and other film) effects, you
could see that his face was indeed pretty marked up, even through
makeup.

By the way, I liked that show.  Someday I hope to get to the point
where I watch shows like that without searching to see if they show
anybody I know...  Is there any escape from Hollywood?  Nope.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 29 SEP 1980 1228-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: duel substitute

  I suspect that the short, savage section on the catwalk (just
before Luke loses his hand) is the only section likely to have been
done with a "fighting double" for Vader. It is nearly impossible to
"pull punches" in a weapon duel, especially a duel with light sabers;
if what you meant was deliberately missing while seeming to intend
to hit, it's easier to do that by completely choreographing the
bout rather than by trying to hit only where your opponent will be
defending. (This latter is done by the Markland Medieval Mercenary
Militia, a group of anachronists who "fight" with metal weapons and
armor instead of rattan and padding, but they fight sword + shield
and the shield is a much easier target.)  Choreography, however, does
take a lot of time even if you're doing something like MACBETH (heavy
weapons mean fewer movements required to fill the time; think of the
Black Knight in MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL.)  Replacing Prowse
with a dueling master would have reduced the time needed to rehearse
when the filming was significantly behind schedule.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 OCT 1980 0634-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #94
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Thursday, 2 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 94

 Today's Topics: SF History - Asimov/Clarke agreement & Clarke's Law,
                    SF Books - Keyes & Nebulas & Queries & WCTBfH?
                 Causes of Bugs - Astrology, TESB - Hamill's Accident
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01 OCT 1980 1133-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Clarke

  The Asimov/Clarke agreement is described in the preface to the
Clarke anthology TIME PROBE: The Sciences in Science Fiction. As
I recall, it was concluded in a New York City taxicab, and can be
diagramed as follows:

     BEST SCIENCE FACT WRITER     BEST SCIENCE FICTION WRITER
       1. Isaac Asimov              1. Arthur C. Clarke
       2. Arthur C. Clarke          2. Isaac Asimov

   The quoted law is actually Clarke's \Third/ Law; the First is
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist says that something is
possible, he is very likely right; when he says that something is
impossible, he is almost certainly wrong," and I never can remember
the Second. The laws have been listed in a number of places,
including an article in the NEW YORKER in the early 70's.

------------------------------

Date:  1 October 1980 1733-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A

Two of Clarke's Laws:

Clarke's Second Law: When a distinguished, but elderly, scientist
   says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right.
   When he says something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is
   indistinguishable from magic.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1980 0607-EDT
From: NIVEN at MIT-DMS (Marilyn Niven)

     According to the NESFA Directory, Daniel Keyes had 8 stories
published in SF magazines between 1952 and 1964.  That's sounds
more like an unprolific writer than an outsider to SF.  Does
anyone know of any non-SF work of his?

     Does anyone remember the title and author of a story about a
character whose time is being stolen?  It's been feeling that way
lately and I thought it might be fun to reread the story if I could
find it.

     On Nebulas: the SFWA membership is not large and the number of
those who vote is not nearly 100% of the membership.  Therefore, it
is possible for a small active block of members to determine the
winner of a Nebula.  This can be a very bad thing for the reputation
of the award, but no workable solution has been found.

                    --Fuzzy

------------------------------

Date:  1 Oct 1980 (Wednesday) 2341-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON (Steve Platt)
Subject: "The Wizard of Speed and Time"

     Does anyone know where we can rent or otherwise obtain a copy
of "The Wizard of Speed and Time"?  If noone knows directly, what
about a net or otherwise address for MITSFS, or for that matter,
anyone from the NOREASCON II committee?  Thanx.

        [Steve Platt]

------------------------------

Date:  1 October 1980 1737-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject:  Scientific Magic

Has anyone collected together good books on "Scientific Magic",
wherein the laws, although different from our conventional
universe, can be understood?  Heinlein's Magic Inc., Niven's
Wizard series (ending with The Magic Goes Away) come to mind.

I believe that the only reason the Graphics Display Processors work
here is because of the chalk marks inside the cabinet.  Some people
claim this is manufacturing or shipping data which has never been
erased, but I believe that if they are ever erased, the GDPs will
stop running.  Only Brian Rosen and Stan Kriz know how to put these
marks back; it involves some programs which draw pentagrams, and
goes from there...
                                joe

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1980 0220-EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Why Call Them Back From Heaven?

    Sorry; it's by Simak.  (skimpy novel, published by Ace (H-42) in
  early/mid 60's.)  No other use of the title, by Farmer or anyone
  else, shown in several indexes.
    Farmer \might/ base a book on Ettinger (the wight who
  popularized the idea of freezing the fatally damaged until they
  could be healed), but he wouldn't include a favorable view of
  Christian mysteries, as WCTBfH did.      --  Chip <Hitchcock at CCA>


    Sorry, but Why Call Them Back From Heaven is by Clifford D. Simak,
  originally published (copyrighted) in 1967, and now an Avon paper-
  back with first printing listed as June 1980.
    It is a disappointing book.  The reason for that statement would
  require divulging a spoiler and is not worth the effort.
                                             --  Frank <FJW at MIT-MC>


    Why Call Them Back From Heaven IS by Clifford Simak, it is a full
  length novel, and is pretty good. (not as good as much of his other
  stuff) I got a paperback copy a few years back from Panther books
  (I think they were the publishers, some english publisher anyway).
    Clifford Simak is my second favorite author (Heinlein is the
  first).  I recommend Way Station and the Goblin Reservation highly.
                                           --  Alan <Katz at USC-ISIF>


     "Why Call Them Back From Heaven" is by Clifford Simak.
     "Traitor to the Living" is by Philip Jose Farmer.
     "Recalled to Life" is by Robert Silverberg.
     "Counter-clock World" is by Philip K. Dick.
  I think that is most of the "dead coming back to life" stories
  I can remember.  The titles and plots are often similar, which
  perhaps explains Dave Moon's error.        --  Dave <PDL at MIT-DMS>

------------------------------

Date:  1 Oct 1980 1146-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: POM bugs

I remember a story about a classic phase-of-moon bug, but I heard
it Nth hand, so you will get it (N+1)th hand. It was when one of
the radar systems which watch for incoming Russian ICBMs from the
North Pole was being first tested (I don't know if it was DEW or
BMEWS or what). As the story goes, almost as soon as the system
was put on-line (within seconds) it found a target. Now, everyone
was a little suspicious, but a possible nuclear attack is a possible
nuclear attack. The strange part about the detected target was that
no expected-point-of-impact could be calculated. Eventually someone
realized that the radar was tracking the moon!

Apparently, these systems now have a phase-of-moon patch to ignore
this type of target.

        - Craig

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/02/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Hamill and The Empire Strikes Back.  People who have not seen this
movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 01 OCT 1980 1141-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Mark Hamill's injury

  As it happens, the subject came up randomly last night at the
MITSFS.  Much of the following is Nth-hand but seems reasonable.

  Hamill was in a serious car accident shortly after SW4 opened; he
has said that it happened when he was driving down an LA freeway at
70mph in his brand new BMW and, realizing that he was about to miss
his exit, attempted to cross abruptly from the leftmost to the right-
most lane, causing the car to roll over. (He's also said that part
of the problem was that that was the first car he'd ever had with a
decent engine in it.)  Apparently he had no ID on him at the time
and it was a while before anyone, including Lucasfilms, found out
why he hadn't gotten wherever it was he was going.
  I also heard that Gary Kurtz told (during the presentation at
Noreascon) of going up to Hamill during the Nth take of the scenes
in the snow after he has gotten away from the wampa's cave, pointing
to one of the "scars" on his face, and wondering whether maybe the
makeup man hadn't overdone it --- to which Hamill replied that what
Kurtz was pointing to was one of Hamill's own scars.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 OCT 1980 0708-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #95
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Friday, 3 Oct 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:           Contacting MITSFS/Noreascon People,
                 SF History - Asimov/Clarke Treaty, Literature Query,
                SF Books - Anderson & Stealing Time & Scientific Magic
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 02 OCT 1980 1214-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Oops!

   The Asimov/Clarke treaty is \not/ explicated in TIME PROBE, which
means I don't know where I got that info from (presumably some Asimov
intro to a Clarke piece).

------------------------------

Date: 02 OCT 1980 1144-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Jittlov query

        Addresses:

   Noreascon II                 MITSFS
   Box 46, MIT Branch PO        W20-421
   Cambridge  MA    02139       84 Massachusetts Ave.
                                Cambridge  MA    02139

There are assorted MITSFS and Noreascon people on the net, but none
of them are likely to know the answer to your specific query; if
you \write/ to Bill Carton (our film programmer) c/o Noreascon II
he should be able to tell you where to find it. (Noreascon tends
to prefer messages through the mail because there's one person
specifically responsible for seeing that all the mail gets to
everyone who should see it.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1980 10:44 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "Literature"

Speaking of "literature", I would like to get together a list (not
another list!) of everybody's extra special favorite NON-SF books or
short stories, and then perhaps the list could get distributed like
some of the larger info the Digest has dealt with in the past, i.e.,
put on a few accessible systems for a week or so, so that the Digest
doesn't get swamped.

These are the books you would take to the proverbial desert island;
please don't recommend more than about three "items" apiece; but
items like "everything by P.D. James" are okay and count as one.
Add a sentence or two about the book, if you would.

Send your entries to me, obviously, not to the Digest.

Karen

------------------------------

Date:  2 Oct 1980 0834-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: Anderson the prolific

Poul Anderson has yet another book out.  It seems like another
one comes out every three months or so.  Does anyone know why
this sudden outburst?  Has his doctor told him he has an
incurable disease? They're not up to his best work; I couldn't
finish "The Avatar" and didn't get past the cover of "The Golden
Slave".  He seems to be going into Norse bard mode a lot recently.

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 10/02/80 08:59:08 Re: time stealing

Well, I know of one novel called "Keeping Time", by David Bear, in
which a private investigator is hired to discover who is stealing
"time" from a variety of rich folks.  It was a very dull book, set
in a very dull society; the "time" in question has more resemblance
to a Klaatu scam than a speculative invention forming a story base,
and consequently the only reason to call it SF is its setting in a
future post-crash New York.

If you haven't read it, don't bother.

------------------------------

Date:  2 Oct 1980 at 2342-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "SCIENTIFIC" MAGIC ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                               or,
                       Grammarie Made Easy 

Just out from Del Rey is MASTER OF THE FIVE MAGICS by Lyndon Hardy
(who "became interested in fantasy while wandering through the
fringes of fandom as an undergraduate at Caltech").  My skepticism
was challenged by the cover blurb's claim, "one of the most logical
detailings of the laws of magic ever to appear in fantasy".  But
said claim-- mirabile dictu! --turned out to be legitimate.  Can't
say how much, if any, he regularized or imposed structure, for he
went well beyond what was in the folklore and anthro courses I've
had.  A lotta things make sense, now, that were just sort of a
mishmash, before.

(I particularly appreciated the little covert jokes, not just
 the now-not-unusual employment of Maxwell's demon, but the use
 of painted-daisies in a magical preparation to rid a barbarian
 of lice, and willow bark in one to relieve pain.)

Definitely recommended for a real good overview of traditional
Western European magic, wrapped up in a reasonably well done
story.

------------------------------

Date: 02 OCT 1980 1212-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: scientific magic

    Isn't that a wonderful oxymoron?  Aside from Niven's 2 shorts
and a novella ("Not Long Before the End", "What Good Is a Glass
Dagger", and the aforementioned "When the Magic Went Away") the
following spring to mind:

  Randall Garrett's Lord D'Arcy series (TOO MANY MAGICIANS, plus
several novelettes of which 5 were recently collected by Ace;
another was in Asimov's SF Magazine): also a uchronia. Richard I
survived Chaluz and the underlying laws of magic were discovered
a century later; in the mid-20th a Plantagenet rules (not just
reigns over) Britain, western Europe, and most of the western
hemisphere while his primary antagonist is Casimir Nth of greater
Poland.  Detective stories with lots of tuckerisms (the greatest
magical theoretician is Sir Edward Elmer, Th.D.).

[ The ACE collection is entitled MURDER AND MAGIC.  --  RDD ]

  Pratt and de Camp's Howard Shea series (2 novellas collected as THE
INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER; THE CASTLE OF IRON; 2 more novellas published
under the title of the first, THE WALL OF SERPENTS): syllogistically
attune yourself to a world with different rules (Norse myth, Irish
and Finnish legend, etc.); the rules obey the classic ones for magic
and are further controlled by higher math. The first 2 were recently
republished under the misleading title of THE COMPLETE ENCHANTER; the
third is still tied up in a mess of estate copyrights.

  Poul Anderson's Operation series (3 short novelettes and a novella
from 50's F&SF, collected as OPERATION CHAOS): the rules of magic
were discovered in the early 20th century and are now taught in
universities and researched by major corporations.  Typical Anderson
well-done adventure.  The mixing of science into magic spills over
into some other Anderson work as explanations of magical effects,
notably THE BROKEN SWORD and THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS.

\Very/ much on the fringe:

    THE FLYING SORCERERS (Gerrold and Niven): funny natives think
that science is magic and explain it in those terms; some of the
magic (fire balls, itching powder, aphrodisiacs) actually works.

[ SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!  - The following mini-review
  of THE FOURTH PROFESSION is the last part of the digest. It gives
  away the surprise element of the story.  People who have not read
  this story may not wish to read any further.  --  RDD ]

    THE FOURTH PROFESSION (Niven): included in the aliens' kit of
learning pills (made up of tagged RNA) is one that makes you a
disciple/apostle (work miracles, speak in tongues, preach \really/
convincingly, etc.).

    All of the above are well worth reading.


------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 OCT 1980 0646-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #96
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Saturday, 4 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:
                          Charlie and Algernon,
         SF Art - Centaur Query, What is SF? - Delany's Opinion,
   SF Books - Anderson & Landmark SF Query, Causes of Bugs - Astrology
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 02 OCT 1980 1218-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: CHARLY AND ALGERNON

  Recently closed on Broadway after only 17 performances, according
to the Boston GLOBE's lead reviewer, Kevin Kelly.  Kelly also came
out with a truly vicious criticism\M\S\I\C\I\T\I\R\C pan of the show
(no explanations, just expletives); on the other hand, several other
critics have said things about Kelly that shouldn't be published. (He
also hated CHARLY, but since he talked about a dumb premise I'd say
that's a comment on him as much as on the movie.  Meanwhile, Cliff
Robertson continues casting in Boston for CHARLY II.)

------------------------------

Date: 3 October 1980 21:01-EDT
From: Chiron of Thessaly <NEAL at MIT-MC>

     Howdy! I am seeking any information about modern artwork
depicting centaurs.  I am looking for titles of art books, or
names of artists and where I can find the works of those artists
who have centaurs as subject material.  I am not, repeat not,
looking for books that have pictures of ancient drawings of
centaurs, but I am seeking art works as are on the covers of
Piers Anthony's books for example. However, I am not interested
in paperback book covers, but in something larger, possibly an
art print or poster, or a book with large color pictures which
could be blown up.  You can send replies to NEAL@MIT-MC. I'd
really appreciate any help you give me.

                                        Centaurly,
                                           Chiron of Thessaly

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1980 08:36 PDT
From: hoffman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Recognizing Science Fiction

For those arguing about \Shogun/ and all the rest:
   Nebula and Hugo winner Samuel R. Delany has a 1977 collection
of essays titled \The Jewel-Hinged Jaw: Notes on the Language of
Science Fiction/.  One of these essays, "About 5750 Words" says
that reportage, naturalistic fiction, fantasy, and science
fiction are separated by distinct levels of subjunctivity.
Reportage corresponds to "This happened."  Naturalistic fiction
to "This could have happened."  Fantasy reverses this with "This
could not have happened." And science fiction's objects, events,
and situations "have not happened."  I suppose this still leaves
some fuzzy borderline cases, but it's a characterization that has
stuck with me.  -- Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: 03 OCT 1980 1054-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Anderson spate

   A burst of books such as you describe usually happens at least
partly because different publishers take different amounts of time
to actually print and release a book.  I think he has stepped up
his output somewhat over the baseline; in the last year+ another
Flandry book (A STONE IN HEAVEN) and a [fantasy] (THE MERMAN'S
CHILDREN) have also come out, along with 2-3 books in the "Last
Viking" series, but this may represent the abrupt release of work
spanning 2-4 years. (Even a single publisher can get a schedule
entangled; Orson Scott Card has repeatedly complained about the
critics who called HOT SLEEP a giant step backwards, saying that
it was written some time before other books in that future history
that were released earlier.)
   This has happened to Anderson before, and I personally feel it
hurt him. In 1974 he had 4 books published (FIRE TIME, A MIDSUMMER
TEMPEST, A KNIGHT OF GHOSTS AND SHADOWS, and one other) and the
best of them (AKoGaS) didn't make it onto the Hugo ballot (AKoGaS
may also have been hurt because it came out late in the year, but
that's an iffy argument); FIRE TIME, which I felt was good but
not as good as AKoGaS, was on the ballot, along with Priest's THE
INVERTED WORLD and Niven&Pournelle's THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE. The
winner was Le Guin's THE DISPOSSESSED, which might have beaten
anything else.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Oct 1980 0220-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Landmark SF Poll - Final Voting

The nominations are in and final vote-casting time is here.
"Landmarks" are "classics", but accepted "classics" are not
necessarily "landmarks".  A "landmark" is a work that has had
a significant impact on the genre.  A "classic" may simply be
a work that has been enjoyed by a great many people.  In this
poll we are looking for "landmarks", not simply popular
"classics".  Given the large number of nominations five people
who had expressed opinions about the poll's criteria were asked
to review the preliminary nominations.  To help organize your
responses, the panel divided the list into three sections: a
likely landmark list, an unlikely landmark list but good for
filling out the genre (and non-landmark classics in general),
and finally an unlikely candidates list which the panel felt
consisted of books that were really not eligible.

The panel did an excellent job in presorting the nominations.
Now we want to collect your opinions of the works in question.
There are two types of vote at this stage. The first vote is a
NEGATIVE vote AGAINST a work you see on the list.  Perhaps you
think that a work is not a landmark (or good filler), did not
affect the genre (or was not enjoyed by many), and does not
deserve to be in its category.  To vote AGAINST, simply send
the name of the work, the author, and the word AGAINST in a
message to POLL@AI.

The second type of vote is a POSITIVE vote FOR a work you see on
the list.  Perhaps you think the work is more important than the
panel thought it was and want the work raised from one class to
another. In that case, to vote FOR, simply send the name of the
work, the author, and the word FOR in a message to POLL@AI.

There is no limit to the number of votes you can cast, but please
try to keep the distinction between of "landmark" and "good filler"
works in mind.

Lastly, thanks go to the members of the review panel: Malis at BBNE,
Don at SU-AI, OTA at MIT-MC, PKaiser at BBND, and HJJH at UTEXAS, for
their time and help and also to Richard Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug
Philips, Jon Solomon, and Jim McGrath for installing the SF Poll Final
Ballot in files at the sites listed below.  Everyone should obtain
the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you are
unable to do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and
Roger will be happy to make sure that you get a copy.  Please obtain
your copies in the near future however, since the files will be
deleted in one week.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI       AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS LNDMRK
CMUA         TEMP:LNDMRK.SFL[A210DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC    [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLovers-Landmark.TXT
Rutgers      <SOLOMON>SF-POLL.LANDMARK
SU-AI        SFPOLL.SFL[T,JPM]
MIT-Multics
         >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>landmark-poll-results

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date:     2 October 1980 2128-edt
From:     Paul Schauble <Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics>
Subject:  Computer astrology

I have noticed, from my experiences working on various geographically
separated machines, that the odds of finding more than one machine
down at the same time seem to be much larger than chance. This applies
to machines located in different states, even when there is no network
connection. Has anyone else noticed this?  Is there any data available
for the ARPANET comparing observed vs. expected multiple host
failures??

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 OCT 1980 0520-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #97
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Monday, 6 Oct 1980       Volume 2 : Issue 97

      Today's Topics:     Administrivia, SF Art - Centaurs,
                      SF Movies - The Wizard of Speed and Time,
                      Causes of Bugs - Accursed Data & Astrology 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Administrivia : No Missing Digest

   This is SFL V2 #97, distributed on Monday, 6 October.  It follows
   SFL V2 #96, distributed on Saturday, 4 October 1980.  No issue of
   SF-LOVERS was distributed on Sunday, 5 October 1980.      --  RDD

------------------------------

Date: 05 OCT 1980 2116-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: centaurs+

  One of the best currently-active portrayers of centaurs and other
allegedly mythical or extraterrestrial beasts is Bonnie Dalzell.
Part of her skill comes from her training in zoology (an almost-Ph.D.
at Berkeley(?)), which allows her to draw creatures with believable
skeletons and muscles underlying the visible surface (one of her most
widely known drawings is a pair on the inside covers of one of Larry
Niven's books; front is a kzin, and back is the kzinti skeleton. She's
also drawn most of Niven's other creations.) She's also done a series
of drawings for the Air and Space Museum (part of the Smithsonian)
showing what animals might look like after evolving under differing
conditions of temperature, atmosphere, and gravity, into which series
she slipped a puppeteer and a cthulhu larva (unfortunately these
drawings are not a part of the current set of exhibits).  Not very
well known (perhaps because she does relatively little color, which
is where the big money and notice is) but very good.
    My personal favorite is a pen-and-ink of two centaurs, male and
female, entitled "Missionary Position". I bought a print and hung it
in my office, at a job I detested, as a gauge of the randoms coming
in (nobody actually went into hysterics but there were a few who
choked and left quickly).  Much of her work is available in prints
and even stationery at very reasonable prices; she publishes as
Sleepy Lion Graphics, located in Rockville, MD, and is frequently
seen in huckster rooms at east coast conventions.

------------------------------

Date:  4 October 1980 1511-EDT (Saturday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject:  Jittlov's films

Mike Jittlov doesn't rent his films but you can buy them from him.  I
seem to remember that TWOSAT cost between $125 & 150.  Jittlov is the
only one by that name in LA.  Look him up in the phone book and give
him a call.  (It works) As an additional hint, I believe he lives on
Maltman St. He only sells good prints and when those are gone, that's
it!

        -Lee

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 10/05/80 13:16:39 Re: The Wizard of Speed and Time

Assuming no one has mentioned this already...

      In the August issue of "Starlog", there is a non-interview with
Mike Jittlov concerning his "Master of Speed and Time" film, dropping
hints on how it was done and the problems getting it aired... It also
mentions that you can order your own print (sale, not rent) by writing
off to Mike Jittlov

                        The Starlog Special
                        902 Maltman Ave.
                        Los Angeles, Ca 90026

------------------------------

Date:  4 Oct 1980 at 1839-PDT
From:     Mike at Rand-Unix (Michael Wahrman)
Subject:  Computer Astrology vs. Accursed Data

When I was an undergraduate, I noticed a relationship between school
and computer downtime: as exam week approached computer failure became
inevitable.  I believe that the key to the failure was not exam week
per se, but rather the presence of Accursed Data, such as late papers,
reports, labs, etc, on the file system.

I, for example, who never turned a paper in before it was due in my
life, would desperately type my paper at three in the morning the day
before the final deadline and, as a precaution, spread versions of my
paper throughout the ARPAnet: one copy local, one at CMU, one at MIT,
one at Parc (this was in the early days, my local machine was UCSB).
My paper of course brought doom to one, more, once ALL of these
systems causing system failures, disk crashes and power failures.

More recently, a graduate student from Stanford was in the LA area
typing up his PHD thesis on our 11/45.  The thesis had to be done
and in the hands of his committee within days.  Inevitably the
system crashed with a bizarre floating point failure and was down
for 24 hours.

        Michael.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Oct 1980 2123-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Computer Astrology

I also have noticed that computers tend to go down in bunches, but I
suspect the phenomenon is related to the famous "lost object" law:
" A lost object is always found in the last place you look for it. "

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 OCT 1980 0625-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #98
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Tuesday, 7 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:    SF History - Clarke's Laws, Future - No Sleep,
              SF Books - Blockbuster Complex, SF Film - Jittlov Films,
                   SF TV - Cosmos Reviews, What is SF? - Dallas,
                             Personal - See you in CA?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 06 Oct 1980 1149-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Clarke's Laws 

On behalf of the Murphy Center for the Codification of Human and
Organizational Law, I feel obligated to set straight the record
regarding Clarke's Laws.  (I would have done this sooner but was
on vacation and just now am catching up on mail.)  According to
"The Official Rules", by Paul Dickson, the following set of laws
are as stated in Clarke's "Profiles of the Future" (Harper & Row,
1962).  Asimov's corollary is from the good doctor's article,
"Asimov's Law", in the February 1977 F&S.

Clarke's First Law:
   When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something
   is possible, he is almost certainly right.  When he states that
   something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

   Corollary (Asimov):
      When the lay public rallies round an idea that is denounced by
      distinguished but elderly scientists, and supports that idea
      with great fervor and emotion -- the distinguished but elderly
      scientists are then, after all, right.

Clarke's Second Law:
   The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go
   beyond them into the impossible.

Clarke's Third Law:
   Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
   magic.

-- Don.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Oct 1980 0716-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: Dreams, Dement, and LeGuin

     Prof. William Dement is alive and well at Stanford.  For those of
you who are interested, the Dements had Ursula LeGuin over to dinner
last year because she had put one of his oldest and most favorite
theories -- that people solve problems in their dreams -- in her book
"The Word for World is Forest".
     LeGuin, being the daughter of an anthropologist, may well have
gotten the idea from studies of the tribe mentioned in the digest a
week or two ago.  You can find an article about the tribe in
"Sources", edited by Roszak (sp?).
                                        --cat

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1980 1334-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: The publishing business

The three issues of The New Yorker beginning 29 September 1980 contain
a very interesting series of articles, "The Blockbuster Complex", on
the workings of the publishing industry.  The articles discuss, among
other things, what effect is had on the marketability of books by the
displacement of small booksellers by huge chains like Waldenbooks and
B. Dalton.  The articles are highly relevant to SF books.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date:  6 Oct 1980 1156-PDT
From: Rounds at OFFICE-3
Subject: Jittlov films

A message from an ARCHON V (St.Louis) committee member:

Jittlov wrote ARCHON V to offer himself and his films for a showing at
ARCHON V for $300 plus  expenses.  If you didn't  want to buy all  the
films, but wanted to  see them, this may  be a cost-effective  option.
If anyone wants further  details, please send a  message to ROUNDS  at
Office-3, attn Will Martin,  and I'll arrange  to get the  information
from ARCHON to you.

Will

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1980 0538-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI (Attn: Don)
Subject: Cosmos (on PBS)

I have been watching Carl Sagin's "Cosmos" series on PBS.  It
seems a shade elementary, but interesting and informative enough.

Anyone out there seen much of it (the two episodes so far) and
have any impressions ?

------------------------------

APPLE@MIT-MC 10/07/80 00:32:36 Re: "Cosmos" on PBS

     Have any of you been watching Carl Sagan's TV series "Cosmos" on
Public Television?  The first episode (Sep 28) was not really all that
interesting, and much of what was said came from his book speculating
on the origin of intelligence (The Dragons of Eden) but in the second
episode there were definately interesting things said.  For one, it
went into considerable detail in describing the process of evolution,
and there were some sequences that looked suspiciously like computer
animation that were really good.  Some fundamentalists may be slightly
distressed at Sagan's statement "Evolution is not a theory: it's a
fact."
        
     Continuing with the topic of evolution, the program described
three hypothetical creatures that might have evolved on Jupiter:
"floaters", "sinkers", and "hunters".  These creatures were depicted
creatively in several interesting pictures by artists.

     In sum, so far the series has maintained a very high level of
quality, and is well worth watching as much for the irrepressible
optimism and enthusiasm that Sagan injects into the subject as for
the content per se.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Oct 1980 1202-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Computer Animation and "Cosmos"
cc: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY, Mike at RAND-AI,
    Wescourt at RAND-AI, DDyer at USC-ISIB

I'm not sure if the series is being played concurrently around the
country, but I would like to draw the attention of FX fans the #2
show in the Cosmos series by Carl Sagen. This is the current show
this week in LA (on KCET), and will be repeated Saturday if you
missed it Sunday. Episode 2 is about the common thread of all life
forms on this planet, basically its about the evolutionary process.

If you put aside Carl's strange speech patterns, and the dopey
look of AWE-OF-THE-COSMOS that he affects when in his "spaceship"
(he looks like just dropped a lot of 'ludes), this is a good series.

The two sequences I wanted to point out are (1) the "evolution
of humankind" sequence by Pat Cole and (2) the "DNA replication"
sequence by Jim Blinn (both currently at JPL, but LucasFilms is
so close and so fun...)

Pat made automatic interpolation of line drawings of each major
step in the evolutionary path to us, so that is almost "flows"
from one form to the next, its fun they run it by in 40 seconds.

Jim's DNA sequence is just incredible, the molecule itself is very
effectively depicted (with "soft-gushy" atoms) but we also see the
DNA unzipping and replicating with the aid of the mediating enzymes.

Also - the first 7 seconds of the show - the new KCET logo is also
computer animated, sythetic imagery done here by III.

                - Craig

------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 10/06/80 19:08:39 Re: DALLAS as SF

From the Nov. 1980 Playboy interview with DALLAS star Larry Hagman:

   Playboy: What do you think of the show?

   Hagman:  I'm pretty pleased with it. ... It's exactly what it's
            designed to be: entertainment.  It's a real good comment
            on a mythical country.

   Playboy: Mythical?

   Hagman:  Absolutely.  A lady I know here in Dallas who's right in
            there socially, told me the first time she saw DALLAS,
            she thought it was "the cutest little science fiction
            story she'd ever seen."  And she's right.

------------------------------

Date:  7 October 1980 05:15 edt
From:  JSLove.PDO at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love)
Subject:  Trip

I will visit San Francisco for 4 days from October 16th thru 19th.
I would be interested in contacting fellow APA-ARPA subscribers,
and seeing the campus of at least one well known technical school
in the area.  I expect to be renting a car.

I can be reached as JSL at MIT-Multics; I will start on October 11th,
so I may not read my mail after the 10th, unless I can find the
ARPAnet after I get there.  Any suggestions or offers would be
appreciated.
                                Thanks,
                                    Spencer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 OCT 1980 0743-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #99
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Wednesday, 8 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 99

    Today's Topics: SF TV - One Step Beyond & More Cosmos Reviews
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1980 2322-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: "One Step Beyond"

For television viewers in the Los Angeles area, and those viewing our
local channels via microwave/cable hookups across the country, I have
a special announcement.  KCOP (13) has begun running the old "One Step
Beyond" series on a regular basis (weeknights at 11 PM).  This fine
program, which I believe completely predates "The Twilight Zone" was
presumably the first speculative fiction series on television.  John
Newland, our host, in the same manner that we have come to associate
with Rod Serling, introduces and concludes each episode, often walking
right into the action just as Rod later did.  The programs seem to
hold up very well even after all these years -- I definitely recommend
them.

Now -- a request.  I am somewhat confused as to the exact time frame
into which "One Step Beyond" falls.  Does it actually predate both
"Science Fiction Theatre" and "Twilight Zone"?  Are there any overlaps
between the series?  Was OSB actually first?  The copyright notice on
the program itself was too small to interpret, even when I grabbed the
frame and applied various techniques to magnify and clarify the image.
It MIGHT have been 1959, but it also might have been 1956, I could not
tell with any degree of confidence.

Any information would be appreciated -- this is the first time OSB has
appeared in syndication out here in a long, long, long time.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1980 1919-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: THE PERSONAL COSMOS OF CARL SAGAN

After watching the first episode, I figured the rest would be more
of the same, and as a result decided not to bother with them.  After
reading a few SFL comments, I will be happy to give it another chance.
My problem with #1 was not exactly Sagan's "dopey look," but rather
the sense that he, personally, was bringing this all to us and we
should be grateful.  That's not the *show* about the universe, mind
you; it was the universe, itself, that DR. S had created and was
bringing to us.  As long as he didn't invent (not discover)
evolution, I guess I can see what he has to say!
		Mike

------------------------------

Date:  7 Oct 1980 0819-PDT
From: Amy Newell (Via Will Martin <ROUNDS at Office-3>)
Subject: COSMOS Critique

"Cosmos"  is boring.  Granted, the animated sequence on evolution in the
second show was decent, if overlong, and perhaps, if you'd never seen it
before,  the DNA section was good.  WHAT I can't believe is that the man
had the gall to use the calendar explanation twice,  and  in  succeeding
weeks to boot.  How anyone could offer college credit for a course based
on a series that seems to be aimed at 6th graders  is  beyond  me.   (If
this  isn't  universal,  our  local educational TV station is repeatedly
proclaiming  the  availability  of  college  credit  through  the  state
university for this telecourse.)  There were much better explanations of
"floaters" and "hunters" in "Jem", and as far as the Japanese fable, the
whole point of outside influences on the process of selection could have
been done more effectively in a much shorter time.  In fact,  change  my
6th  grade  level  estimate  --  most  grade  school  kids  pick  up  on
information faster than Sagan is putting it out.

My  background  may be more sociology/anthropology oriented than that of
most of the people on the net, but it seems to me that  the  information
in the first 2 programs could have been presented in one hour, with time
left over, if Sagan weren't so impressed with himself  that  we  had  to
spend  20  minutes  a show looking at his teeth, and if he'd let someone
else do the talking.  While it's true that the sciences  in  general  do
need  to  communicate more with the rest of the world, Carl Sagan is not
the man to do it.

End  of  tirade.  Now if I can just get all those damned dandelion seeds
out of the living room!

-- Amy Newell (through Will Martin--ROUNDS at Office-3)

------------------------------

Date:  7 Oct 1980 1149-PDT
From: Rounds at OFFICE-3
Subject: COSMOS, or, Carl Sagan as Cheshire Cat

I earlier sent a critique by someone else; this is my own:

(NOTE: Check your libraries for the Washington Post of Sunday,
       28 Sept, for a long article on this program. It's worth
       reading.)

I have characterized this program as consisting mainly of Carl Sagan
"gazing raptly".  My wife leans more toward "grinning inanely".  In
any case, its better than most TV (damning with faint praise?) but not
worthy of all the ballyhoo and hoopla which preceeded it.  It is much
too thin, at least so far. The worthwhile parts (some of the animation
and fact) from the first two hours will fit easily into a one-hour
slot with room left over.

So far, all the scenes with the cathedral/spaceship have been a waste.
You read (in TV Guide & elsewhere) how there was such a huge invest-
ment in special effects.  The travels-through-the-galaxies bits were
cruddy, in that it made no vestige of an attempt to really depict what
inter-galactic travel might look like.  (Before the physicists pounce,
let me say I am sure that "look like" is a misnomer, as you really
can't SEE anything at trans-light speeds, I guess...)

In any case, the effex in COSMOS have been super-imposed moving
painted images, as far as the star-travelling goes.  The depicted
galaxies have been far too close together, and everything is shown
through a haze of star-like light points drifting off the screen
edges. Unless I am quite mistaken, between galaxies there should be
velvet blackness, with only the distant smudges of other galaxies
in the cluster to relieve the dark.  Maybe a rare wandering star,
but not a view similar to looking out through a spiral arm, as we
do from here.

I would think that such really good images could be computer-
generated, so that coming into a galactic arm could be depicted so
much more effectively than this "various views of painted images"
business and that the animation used so well in the evolution
sequence could be utilized to really show zooming in on our solar
system from outside the galaxy.  Wouldn't this really be cheaper
than what they did?  I would imagine that video-taping off the
computer would always be less expensive than manual/mechanical
special effects.

Where this series shows most promise is stuff like the combination
scanning-electron-micrograph/artwork exploration of the white blood
cell. This sort of thing is where the visual worth of television far
outstrips the printed page. Yet, the lack of detail in the commentary
which accompanied those images left me quite disappointed. I know that
they can't give enough attention to the myriad complexities inside
that cell; you could do a program for years without exhausting the
wonders to be found inside a cell. Yet, there could have been more
than they gave. As it is, we zipped in, looked at the DNA, and zipped
out, with no further discussion. Rats!

I was pleased and disappointed with the enzyme/DNA animation. Pleased,
because the discussion of the enzyme unzipping the nucleotide bonds
was interesting and informative; disappointed, because nothing was
said about WHY or HOW it happens! Why does that enzyme hang on the
DNA and unzip? What keeps it from just drifting away? How does the
unzipping work? The animation just ignored all the supporting details,
and showed no reason for the blue blob of enzyme to be there and move
and do what it does. If we don't know the answers to these points,
why not just say that? They neither stated nor showed any rationale
for this all happening the way it was depicted.

Am I expecting too much? It just doesn't seem to make any sense to
spend all that money to do it badly, when the same amount of money
could have done it right. Or am I overestimating the capabilities
of the industry and the people?

Resignedly, Will Martin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 OCT 1980 0525-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #100
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Thursday, 9 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:        Alien Intelligence - Communication,
           SF Mags - Skeptical Inquirer, SF Movies - Jittlov's TWOSAT,
           SF TV - Body in Question & Cosmos, Space - Search for Life,
           Time Travel - Recreating 20th Century, What is SF? - Dallas
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1980 0936-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: dolphin communication

The most recent Smithsonian magazine has an article discussing dolphin
intelligence.  Apparently some groups are trying to teach dolphins to
speak the same way that apes were taught. One dolphin has learned some
25 words and the rudiments of grammar (it can distinguish between "put
the pipe on the ball" and "put the ball on the pipe").  An interesting
idea that was mentioned was that with their advanced sonar abilities
they could perhaps look inside one another by means of ultrasonic
imaging. Humans communicate non-verbally by means of facial expression
and body movement; this could be much more direct.

------------------------------

Date:  9 October 1980 00:24 edt
From:  Frankston at MIT-Multics (BOB at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  The Skeptical Inquirer

I just got my latest issue.  Since it is not a well known publication,
but one of interest to some of the people on this mailing list, I
thought I'd mention it.  It "is the official journal of the Committee
for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of Paranormal".  The list
of committee members and staff members is fairly impressive such as
Asimov, Martin Gardner, Sagan etc.

Subscriptions: The Skeptical Inquirer, Box 29, Kensington Station,
Buffalo, NY 14215.  $15/year.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Oct 1980 0011-EDT
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Mike Jittlov

     The short feature, The Wizard of Space and Time, is available
for rental in 16mm from Budget Films, 4590 Santa Monica Blvd., Los
Angeles CA 90029.  The rental cost is $7.50. The MIT Lecture Series
Committee, which runs the campus film program, will be showing this
short sometime this fall. (It will be advertised later.)

                                Mike Dornbrook
                                LSC

------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1980 at 1103-PDT
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: "The Body In Question"

     Those who are complaining about "Cosmos" may be interested in
taking a look at another new PBS series, "The Body In Question", which
has been done by Jonathan Miller of BBC comedy fame.  Miller is also
an M.D., and this series is the best thing I've ever seen on the human
body.  It is the first one which has not flinched from showing what we
REALLY look like inside, without overdoing the gore.  His background
in "the other field", as you might say, also assures a welcome
leavening of humor.

     If you can't stand "Cosmos", give this a try.  You might be
pleasantly surprised.

     I'm not sure what all this has to do with SF, but...

------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1980 1754-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Cosmos FX

In reply to Will Martins comments about the 2nd Cosmos show:

As a matter of fact most of the effects sequences in COSMOS were
bid on by many groups using various techniques. For the most part
computer animation is much more expensive than a "similar" image
made with older techniques (eg matte paintings).  Sagen used
Computer animation only when nothing else cheaper would work. (In
fact III has done such images, it can look great, but painters are
still cheaper.  Matte photography and compositing can be done much
better than it was in those sequences also.)

On the lack of details during the DNA unzip/replicate sequence,
I believe that that is a fairly accurate representation of the
current state of ignorance in this area, I think we just don't
know. Jim Blinn mentioned that the shape of the enzymes were just
approximations based on function, and that the actual shape of the
blue blobs was generated with a stochastic fractal.

                - Craig

------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1980 1013-PDT
From: Yeager at SUMEX-AIM

My initial method of trying to decide whether the Cosmos was well done
was to cajole my 11 year old daughter into watching the first episode
(beg is actually more accurate!).  After 10 minutes she was writhing
in agony with a terminal case of "boringitus."  Not being a sadist by
nature, I admited that she was right on, and she fled the room to go
read something interesting!

My wife woke me at 9pm (it started at 8pm).  Funny thing is that I
fell asleep during the second episode too.  I was wondering if this
program had the financial backing of the American Association of
Orthodontists?  The guy has beautiful teeth!

Bill

------------------------------

Date:  8 October 1980 1319-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Dave Ackley <David.Ackley at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  More Reactions to "Cosmos"

My own feelings about the show have undergone some changes since
the hype started, about 340 degrees all told.  Initially I was very
excited about it, expecting to get some background that I perhaps
didn't know, and then the sort of free-wheeling speculation that
Sagan likes to emit and I like to absorb.

It wasn't very far into the first episode that I realized my hopes
were not being fulfilled and that what with the pace and the apparent
level of the program, they were not likely to be.  My feelings tended
towards disgust that they had spent all that money and come up with
obsolete effects (in final appearance if not in technology) that
failed to thicken the thin gruel of facts that were being presented.

At this point I decided I was being unfair.  My feeling now is that
"Cosmos" is not aimed at such as me, nor, probably, such as you.
Regardless of the increased scientific and technical awareness in
this country and the world, it is my untested feeling that there is
a large body of people for whom terms like "DNA" and "enzyme" are
bucketed into the "Science Words -- Misc" portion of their memories
with no useful links to anything.  I feel this way in spite of
cognizance of the risk of intellectual or scientific "elitism" that
is run; this thesis, it seems to me, is far closer to the truth than
the assumption that, for the contemporary viewing public as a whole,
the stuff of which "Cosmos" is made is old hat and of no interest to
anyone.

Consequently, my current feeling after two episodes is that there
is indeed a place in the cosmos for "Cosmos", and that I'm willing
to sacrifice some of my own enjoyment for a potentially far vaster
crowd of people who stand to gain much more from it anyway.

A few random comments and I will conclude.  As regards the "crab
segment" for highlighting artificial selection and leading into
evolution, I found it quite interesting and not catastrophically
overlong. (And coming on the heels of Shogun, well, it's topical
to boot!)  Just be thankful you were all spared yet another
exposition on the white moths and the grey moths in industrial
England.  The fact that the "facts" of artificial selection could
have been presented in fifty-seven seconds is of absolutely no
consequence: Sagan's fundamental purpose, I think, is to get
people interested in the universe around them, not to cover
large-value-of-x material in small-value-of-n shows.

I think the much ranted about AWE OF THE COSMOS shots are a mistake,
but one that isn't too hard to forgive.  Unfortunately, the feeling
of wonder at the majesty of the universe is a peculiarly personal one,
and looking at someone else (supposedly) entranced by it does little
at best.

Finally, on more practical matters, I think the time slot that
"Cosmos" is getting, at least in Pittsburgh, is excellent.  Hot on
the heels of "60 Minutes" can't hurt matters at all.  I've wondered
sometimes at the vast audience that "60 Minutes" draws, and I have
the hope that lots of those people may flip over to PBS and check
out "Cosmos".  (And then forgot to turn the channel afterwards and
catch a reasonable production of "Crime and Punishment" immediately
following.)
                -Dave

------------------------------

Date: 10/08/80 1142-EDT
From: Robert Kelner <NATE at LL>
Subject: COSMOS

  My impressions of COSMOS were similar to many already given.
However, I'm almost willing to forgive Sagan's dopey look in
Episode 1. After all, he isn't a trained actor. He was probably
looking at a blank wall, with cameras all around, and someone
said "look in AWE-OF-THE-COSMOS".
  A much more serious criticism I have of Sagan (and one which I
suspect many people on this list would NOT share) is that he really
believes in LIFE OUT THERE.  My feeling is that there probably is
life, maybe even within tens of thousands of light years.  However,
I don't think it should be mentioned except in passing.  COSMOS
is supposed to be science, not SF.  As far as I know, there is no
evidence for life - just a belief that it could be.  That sounds
to me like a definition of SF. In any event, I really don't care
to be bombarded with Sagan's opinion on it.
  As I see it, astronomy and the space program are interesting
and awe inspiring enough in their own right, and don't need any
speculations like LIFE to help keep them fun.
   However, Sagan's constant harping on LIFE (for years, not just
on this show) does more harm than merely annoy me. I think there's
a real danger that, by pushing the exploration for LIFE as a major
reason for space research, we run the risk of public support
collapsing when no life is found. I'm sure we'll eventually find
evidence for other life, but it's way premature to do it now. Our
technology just isn't ready. We should keep our eyes open, but not
let a major purpose of a space probe be "THE SEARCH FOR LIFE".

  One other topic brought to mind by COSMOS:

  While watching the library in Alexandria sequence I became
depressed.  I imagined myself transported to that era, and going
in to ask for a library card.  When they learned I was from the
20th century they wanted me to bring them up to date on our
knowledge.  I can't begin to do it!
  Perhaps I could show them how to make a telescope, and bring them
somewhat up to date in physics (my field) and math, but even simple
lab. demo's would be impossible. I can't make an oscilloscope.  I
couldn't make an engine because I can't refine metals. I can't make
gunpowder because I don't know how to find Saltpeter. (perhaps it's
just as well, but you've got to admit, if I provided the king with
gunpowder he's likely to let me work in the library for as long as
I want, with all the money I need.) Anyway, I doubt many people
could do this but then I got to wondering how few people it would
take to remake 20th century civilization. And a second question:
How many people off the street (your average citizen) would it take?

  In any case, COSMOS wasn't so bad -- I'll certainly watch the rest
of it.

------------------------------

Date:  8 October 1980 14:46 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Dallas as SF

It is natural that Larry Hagman should think of "Dallas" as SF, after
all, his previous TV show was also SF.  I mean "I Dream of Jeannie",
of course (\/\/\/).

P.S. to CWR: Kimball greets you

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 OCT 1980 0735-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #101
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 10 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 101

   Today's Topics:          SF TV - Connections & Cosmos,
                         Alien Intelligence - Communication,
                   Space - Search for Life, Future - Transportation
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1980 12:47:51-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: Cosmos and yet better

     I have seen the first episode of Cosmos, which was moderately
interesting, but hardly something to rave about.  However, as regards
things to rave about, a much more interesting series "Connections" is
being rerun here and possibly elsewhere. For those of you who have not
seen it, it's a real must; a fascinating look at how technology causes
subsequent technology. It is subtitled "an alterative view of change",
and is a fast paced, engrossing look at world history through it's
evolving technology.  Don't miss it.

                Ken

------------------------------

APPLE@MIT-MC 10/09/80 22:45:24 Re: COSMOS yet again...

     I think one of the things that all you scientific/technical
people have been missing in COSMOS is its name: cosmos.  As Sagan
says, cosmos is "all there is, or ever was, or ever will be."  How
can anyone hope for the nitty-gritty details on everything discussed
in this series.  One critic, in particular, wanted to know the "how
and why" of DNA replication.  Well, I'm sure there are many technical
books on this subject, and it's silly to expect a show as general as
this to provide as involved a description of it as one of these.

     Secondly, you have to consider the purpose of the show.
Certainly no one intended the evolution sequence, for example, to
be valuable instruction for a biologist.  It is aimed at those who
know nothing more about science than what most people learn in high
school.  Sagan's "sense of wonder," artificial and "dopey" as it may
be, at least makes people believe that science is capable of inducing
that feeling in some.

     One last point: the correct spelling of Carl Sagan's name is with
two a's, and not "Sagin" or "Sagen".  If you're going to criticise the
man, you should at least spell his name right!

                                        - Jim Cox

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 10/09/80 21:43:51

     Two points: First, on COSMOS, I have watched both shows, and have
not been enlightened as to the "mysteries of the Cosmos."  What I have
been watching was the way in which Sagan aimed his own feelings about
science at the public.  He is, I think, doing a damn good job at re-
lating some of the "Romance of Science" to the lay public.  I think
that I feel some of that same "romance", but Sagan expresses it more
clearly than I can.  I think that, by relating the basics of science
to the public, he is giving them much of the same *spirit* of science
that I feel when I read that it is presently believed that the
universe has been relatively homogenous for the first 10^-25 seconds
of its existence. (From Scientific American - Imagine explaining that
in ancient Alexandria).  I watch Sagan much more for aesthetic/public-
presentation reasons than for learning facts which I get in more depth
in school anyway.
     Secondly, on cetacean intelligence. A few years ago, in Hawaii,
a researcher was working on dolphin-human communication using an
intermediate language.  A lab assistant, after being fired, came and
released the dolphins to the ocean.  The assistant claimed that he
aimed to stop the "slavery" of dolphins, who as intelligent beings,
should not be imprisoned.  I don't recall what the verdict was, but
I heard that "the defense was hopeful".

Ken Haase

------------------------------

Date: 09 OCT 1980 1153-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re-reaction to COSMOS

    David Ackley has managed to put into coherent form something
I haven't been able to say without sounding hopelessly elitist
(possibly because I usually am a hopeless elitist).  A friend from
the MITSFS who is also one of the few people in the world with a
Ph.D. in Planetary (rather than Earth) Sciences has described Sagan
as doing more damage to orderly scientific investigation than anyone
since Percival Lowell (1); I think this is ignoring the valuable
service he renders of reducing the common but erroneous perception
that science is incomprehensible to the average man.
    (Sagan with his frequent public appearances also helps to deal
with another important factor: the linked perception that scientists
not only are incomprehensible but also have motivations so different
from that of the general public that they are ipso facto dangerous. A
recent article (source unrecollected) missed this point, decrying the
attempts to portray scientists as ordinary human beings; scientists
must neither be socially deified (as doctors frequently are) nor
despised as invaders of "things man was not meant to know".  (Does
anyone remember Niven's "Unfinished Story #2", of which the entire
text is "There are things man was not meant to know" (from A HOLE IN
SPACE, I think).))
  Having said this, I will add that my personal reaction to COSMOS was
very negative; aside from the fact that I almost never watch TV anyway
(I prefer the higher information transfer rate of skimmed magazines
and books) I couldn't stand the endless mugging and head-tilting which
seemed to be the best he could do to convey sincerity.  Surely he
doesn't speak slowly and pose like that in class; he'd lose all his
students!

(1) Percival Lowell determined the existence and approximate position
    of Pluto, although he died before it was actually discovered.  He
    was also something of a sensationalist --- although he didn't
    always gush on command; when William Randolph Hearst sent him a
    telegram saying IS THERE LIFE ON MARS CABLE THOUSAND WORDS the
    reply was NOBODY KNOWS repeated 500 times.

------------------------------

Date: 09 OCT 1980 1214-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Sagan's Search for Life

    I agree that it could ultimately hurt [research, the space
program, etc.]  if wild promises were made about our finding life
elsewhere in the universe.  BUT, looking at the available evidence
from almost a layman's point of view, I would say that there is
\very/ little reason to argue that Earth is the only site of life. 
This admittedly is negative evidence, but it's sufficiently strong
that I think calling speculation about life on other worlds purely
stfictional isn't reasonable.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Oct 1980 1131-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer W. Thomas)
Subject: Life out there / Space program

<begin flame>
As an example of how much it is possible for the *SEARCH FOR LIFE*
to distort the space program, one need only look at the Voyager space
probes. Somebody (I think Sagan had a lot to do with it) decided that
Titan was the most likely place left in the Solar System for life.
Therefore, a large part of the Voyager program will be devoted to
Titan.  This is alright, but there is a chance for Voyager II to be
re-routed in order to encounter Uranus (and Neptune? - I'm not sure
about this).  If this is done, it won't come anywhere near Titan. A
tentative decision was made to go ahead with this, provided that we
either don't get enough data about Titan from Voyager I, or the data
from Voyager I is too tantalizing, and they want more information.
Thus, we could possibly be throwing away our chance to learn more
about a planet (or planets) we know almost NOTHING about, just on the
off chance that there might be *LIFE* on Titan.  This is because one
of the overriding goals of the space program so far has been to find
*LIFE* (assuming we would recognize it when we saw it).
<end flame>

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1980 1422-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-3
Subject: Public Transportation

Gentlepeople:

I'd like to start a discussion on a new topic: sensible methods
of transport in the future.  We had a brief "matter-transmission"
discussion some time back, and I'd like to keep away from that
topic in this exchange.  What I am trying to get is some idea of
better methods of transport for people and goods, which would
avoid the problems inherent in what we have now.  Let me first
fill in some background/personal bias:

I think that the basic concept of transport we now use is wrong.
We have "quantal" or discontinuous methods, mostly various kinds
of cans on wheels or wings, which are moved by various propulsive
methods in order to move the people or goods contained therein.
I don't think that this is right.  We expend energy to move the
containers -- in many cases, more energy is expended to move the
enclosure than is used to move the payload.  (The obvious example
of this is the person alone in an automobile, shoving 3000 lbs +
of car around in order to transport 200 lbs of person from point
a to point b.)

No matter how efficient mass transport gets, it still is this same
sort of quantum method.  A bus or a train or a ship or a plane,
it still is one discrete chunk, or string of chunks, of transport
capacity, moving on its route.  Of course no one wants to give up
their car and take a bus -- if you don't subject yourself to the
bus's schedule, you miss it, and have to stand there and wait for
the next one, if there is one.  People who can afford, are able,
and are used to controlling their own schedule by driving their
own car resent giving up their freedom to control their actions,
and subjecting themselves to the schedules of the transport
authority.  So it takes vast efforts to move them out of cars
into public transit, even if the latter is well-run.  Sadly,
most are wretchedly run, by self-serving incompetents who don't
use their own product, and who therefore cannot even apply
enlightened self-interest to improve it.

SF has, over the years, proposed alternative transit, notably the
moving road.  Heinlein wrote "The Roads Must Roll", Asimov used
moving roads or slidewalks in "The Caves of Steel" and the like,
and the concept has become common in SF.  I am not sure that this
is reasonable or viable.  I've thought about using such systems,
and I wonder: Do you have to stand for long distances, or are some
sort of seats provided at intervals or on certain strips?  What
about carrying things, or moving heavy stuff?  What about access
for the handicapped? (SF mentions the agility developed by people
in shifting from slow to fast strips, for example.  How will you
do this in a wheelchair?  Or will all handicapped people be in
anti-gravity floater units or some such wonderfulness?)  Anyway,
the sheer mechanical complexity of such devices, especially
considering that they will be the size of superhighways, leads
me to doubt that they will work.  Our technology seems to have
problems keeping escalators and little, simple moving slidewalks
at airports in a consistently operating mode.  What will be the
engineering problems and maintenance nightmares of an interstate
multi-speed moving road?  It's interesting that the archetype of
the story of this genre is about a failure!  (Heinlein's The
Roads Must Roll)

Now, I know that this is supposed to be the future, and things will be
better -- materials will be stronger, controls will be more reliable,
and people will be smarter.  Hmmm...  Anyway, it just doesn't grab me
and make me believe in it.  I want it, but I doubt it.  So, what else
is there?

This is what I want to see discussed.  Let's postulate and describe
(generally) alternative forms of transport that permit the continuity
we need to have public transit really work. I don't think any quantal
type of concept (little efficient electric cars, computer controlled;
personal helicopters or flyers; monorails; pneumatic tube trains;
whatever other concepts SF has produced) will work, when it really
comes down to it.  I always come up with matter transmission as the
only way to better get stuff or me from here to there.  As I said
above, let's just ignore that for now; we've discussed it before,
and we come up with pretty definite opinions of possibility or
desirability.  I just can't think of anything else!  It upsets me.

There also is the question about the density of population needed to
make some methods worthwhile.  A moving road system is fine for New
York, maybe, but how about one person per square mile in Nevada?  Do
we HAVE to mix personal vehicles to the main system at its periphery
in order to feed into and out of it?  My ideal is the scattered popu-
lation and personal isolation possible with a society like that
in Asimov's The Naked Sun, with a sparse population allowing each
individual to have his own vast estate.  Is the very concept of
"public" or "mass" transit even applicable then?  But, given that we
have to put up with a highly-populated world, what is a really good
way to move around?  I want concepts that will cover everything from
going to the grocery store for food, to going out to dinner for an
evening, through going across the country for a visit to mother (even
if these concepts are inapplicable in a given future society).  What
do you say?  How do we do it?

Wonderingly, Will Martin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 OCT 1980 0916-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #102
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 11 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 102

  Today's Topics:      Space - Search for Life, SF TV - Cosmos,
                  Future - Transportation, SF Books - Bicycles Query
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 OCT 1980 0853-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Flaming Titan!  (What a great swear word)

     I just checked with Alan Wood at the JPL public information
office.  Voyager II is definitely on a trajectory that will take
it to Uranus. They will only redirect it if there is a catastrophic
failure of Voyager I.

------------------------------

Date: 10 OCT 1980 0834-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Cosmos

     It may be that Cosmos is not a good show, I certainly thought
that it dragged.  However, it also may be that we know too much to
appreciate it.  We have had reviews from SF-LOVERS.  How about
collecting a few reviews from the general public, and putting them
in the newsletter.  p.s.  By the general public I don't mean your
friends.  You have probably chosen them because they are like you
(even though you don't think so) and they will have the same biases
you do.  A better subject would be someone you know well because you
are stuck with them, like your parents and siblings (provided they
aren't also SF-LOVERS).
     Lets hear it from the masses.  Is Cosmos a hit or a flop?

[ And please remember NOT to tell the general public about SFL.
                                                        --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1980 0831-PDT
From: ROUNDS at OFFICE-3
Subject: COSMOS and CONNECTIONS

Don't want to belabor this, but...

I think there may have been an misunderstanding of my criticism of
the animated DNA unzip business, in that APPLE@MIT-MC thought that
I would have preferred a technical and detailed explanation of all
we know about the process.  I don't expect that in a TV show, of
course.  What I objected to was that the animation depicted a blue
enzyme blob unzipping DNA helices, with nothing at all else, in the
picture or narration, to give it any rationale for doing so. If the
voice-over had said at that time "...We don't yet know why this
enzyme does this in this fashion, but we are sure that this is what
it does..."  or if it gave some brief or simplified explication of
what makes the enzyme DO what it does, or if the picture had somehow
indicated some form of attractive force holding the enzyme on the
DNA; any of these would have satisfied! (I'm no biochemist -- I don't
know this stuff, but I would like to see it explained on a superficial
level.)  The problem was that no rationale was given at all.  It was
magic. The important thing about science is the reasoning, the chains
of cause-and-effect behind everything.  THAT is what must be driven
into the minds of the non-scientific viewers. Everything has a reason.
It all follows logically from what preceeds it.  That attitude is what
has to be gotten across.  Science is all about finding these links and
chains and explaining them.

What is poor about these parts of COSMOS is what is great about
CONNECTIONS.  It may be really more engineering than pure science,
but nothing wrong about that.  I, too, am glad CONNECTIONS is being
re-run.  Watch both.  I'm sure you'll find CONNECTIONS to be much
more satisfying and informative than COSMOS.  (Skip the discussion
sessions following CONNECTIONS, though.)  CONNECTIONS, as expressed
in its title, has the delineation of these chains of causality as
its motive, and that is why I like it so much, and think it is so
worthwhile.  If the cause and effect is not emphasized, and the
magic is, the science goes away.  Sagan should be promoting under-
standing instead of awe.  Sure, the universe is beautiful and
wondrous, but it is still a mechanism, and can be explained
and the questions can be answered.  It is not something to be
mesmerized by, just because we don't know the answers yet.  What
we know can be detailed, as can the limits of our knowledge.

Just an aside, about this TV Science Industry: Could someone on
the net, who is more familiar with the intricacies of the TV world,
please explain this?  When CONNECTIONS was first shown, it was on
once during the week (Sunday 7PM Central, here in St.Louis, KETC,
Ch.  9 -- same time as COSMOS now is on).  No repeats at all; if
you missed it that night, too bad.  Now, COSMOS is being shown
and repeated TWICE during the following week.  Essentially, these
programs are for the same audience.  Why would the scheduling be
so different?  Are there contractual/licensing agreements that
control this?  Is it totally up to my local ETV station, or does
PBS control this?  Any explanatory revelations available?

(Hell, its all still better than Charlie's Angels, isn't it?)

--Will Martin

------------------------------

DLW@MIT-AI 10/10/80 18:04:16 Re: transportation

The arguments Rounds gives for the desirability of continuous
transportation mostly apply to moving people; I don't see how
they apply to freight.  It seems to me (purely "intuitively")
that "quantal" transportation is more efficient, requiring
less energy and maintainance (those roads are consuming power
and wearing themselves down even when nobody is riding at the
moment), and so such methods should only be used where they
are really valuable.  Of course, maybe this discussion will
reveal a more efficient continuous method.

------------------------------

Date: 10 October 1980 1930-EDT (Friday)
From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01)
Subject:  Re: Public Transportation

Friends,

In response to Will Martin's call for comments (SFL vol 2, #101), I'd
like to put forth a counter-argument, just to make things interesting.

Just what is wrong with quantal methods (personal cars, et al.)? There
appear to be three main things: inefficient use of energy, inefficient
use of materials, and traffic problems (including parking.)  These
days, the first, energy inefficiency, is probably the most serious;
at least, it seems to be the prime motivator behind all the various
calls I've heard for better public transportation.  But suppose that
within the next four or five decades we succeed in harnessing some
effectively inexhaustible energy source--solar or fusion power, for
example--as we hope.  It seems to me that when that happens, energy
conservation will become a false economy, and the primary reason for
wanting extensive short-range non-quantal public transport would fade
away.

Now, of course, these considerations don't apply right now; energy
is at a premium and will remain so for quite some time.  Some might
consider it a little silly to think now about technologies that won't
be sufficiently developed to make a difference for many years.  On the
other hand, I suspect that anything on the scale of Heinlein's Roads
(which were solar powered, for what it's worth!)  will be overtaken
by an energy glut before they are well-established.  Perhaps public
transportation is a medium-term stopgap, just as synthetic fuels from
coal are supposed to be.

Frankly, I think that I'd prefer quantal methods, assuming that the
other two objections I listed can be overcome (although give me a
good matter transmission system any day).  For traffic problems,
there is computer control (that wind from your terminal comes from
my rapidly waving hands.)  I'll forego comment on the materials
problem until I'm convinced that it really IS a serious problem.

Having said all this, I might as well admit that I don't own a car
and am not likely to for a while yet, even though I can certainly
afford it.  However, for the sake of truth and all that, I didn't
want the contention that "Public transportation is OBVIOUSLY the
wave of the future" to get by totally unscathed.

--Paul Hilfinger

------------------------------

Date: 10 OCT 1980 1059-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: rolling roads . . .

    To push off the discussion, I'll note a couple of points about
Will's msg.
    First, both of the stories he mentions ("The Roads Must Roll"
and THE CAVES OF STEEL) show extensive provisions for seating on the
strips.  Asimov specifically mentions that being seated on the strips
is the prerogative of higher (job) classifications, while there is a
chain of steakhouses on the rolling roads.
    Unfortunately, neither of them considers the problems of getting
a material tough enough for the job and flexible enough that it can
be brought around in a loop rather than simply brought under for the
return trip the way an ordinary conveyor belt is. (It could be argued
that such a reversal is not necessary in Asimov's design; the seats
could collapse like the steps of an escalator --- but that would make
a mess of one of Heinlein's steakhouses, to say nothing of requiring
twice as much material (from internal evidence Heinlein's road runs
in a dog bone layout).
   Also, tRMR is not the story of a mechanical failure, although
mechanical failures are mentioned in the story; he specifically
states that when shutdown of all of the driving rollers in one
of the twelve sectors caused excess tension on the belt, safety
interlocks caused the belt to come to a smooth stop (although he
does note the absence of an obvious safety device to force the
speed of any belt to approximate that of its immediate neighbors).
tRMR is the story of a management failure, which is a horse of a
different color (which has been proved to be impossible by means
of the pejorative calculus (- )).

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1980 1227-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Moving roads & other transportation    

It seems obvious to me that moving roads, slidewalks, and the like
suffer from the same problems that ROUNDS@OFFICE-3 was complaining
about in cars and other current forms of transportation: Energy is
expended moving the road as well as the people, and the road almost
certainly weighs more!  In general, any form of transportation will
be one of two types: Either it will be something that carries the
person/object with it (e.g., cars, moving roads, jet packs, antigrav
belts) or it will be something that transports the person/object with
no intervention required once the trip is begun (e.g., teleportation,
cannons).  We've already discussed teleportation to death, and any
other form of transportation will, by definition, require time roughly
proportional to the distance traveled.  I for one do not like the
idea of traveling large distances with no mechanism available for
correcting my course or handling emergencies (e.g., you've been
ejected from a cannon and are hurtling several miles toward some
sort of landing net, and a large bird flies into your path).  Thus
I conclude that any reasonable form of transportation other than
matter transmission will require a "vehicle" that must transport
itself as well.  This vehicle can be quite small, of course -- how
large does an antigravity device (plus small propulsive jet) have
to be?

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 October 1980  10:25-EDT
From: John A. Pershing Jr. <JPERSHING at BBNA>
Subject: Public Transportation

Can anyone provide/guesstimate the actual mass of the belt in a moving
sidewalk/road?  It seems that, if it is going to go much farther than
the other end of the airport, then you end up moving just as much
"container" as with a bus or trolley.  Not to mention the orders of
magnitude more bearings/gears/pulleys which are constantly wearing
out.  (It's also probably hard to keep a few spare moving sidewalks
on the maintenance lot for when other walks have to be brought in
for repairs.)

For relatively urban areas, the bicycle is a very efficient mode
of transport for most people.  Particularly if existing mass
transit systems are retrofitted to accomodate bicycles, so that
I can, say, bicycle into the local commuter train station, hop
the train to Providence, and then bicycle to my destination. As
to the passenger-weight to vehicle-weight ratio, I outweigh my
bicycle/pump/spare-tube/wrench by over 4-to-1.  Now, if we can
just eliminate all of those damn rush-hour drivers trying to run
me off of the road.

Sigh... too bad that efficient transportation is so mundane.  Has
anyone ever written an SF story featuring bicycles/cyclists?

  -jp

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1980 1325-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: more on transport

I saw a very efficient mode of transport this morning - a guy on a
moped towing another on roller skates.  I can just see a great snake
of commuters trundling down the highway each morning, each one holding
on to the previous guy's belt with one hand and reading the Times with
the other.  Cities would have rope tows like in ski resorts running
down each side of the street.  People with groceries or whatever would
tow them along on skateboards.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 OCT 1980 0937-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #103
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 12 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 103

Today's Topics: SF Art - Centaurs, Alien Intelligence - Communication,
                       SF TV - Cosmos, Future - Transportation,
                    Filksongs - SF Anthem, Star Trek on TV (maybe)                
----------------------------------------------------------------------

NEAL@MIT-MC 10/09/80 22:03:44 Re: Sleepy Lion Graphics

Howdy!

I previously mailed SF-LOVERS seeking Centaur artwork. I believe
I have found the graphics company I am looking for, but need an
address.  The company is called "Sleepy Lion Graphics" and it
should be listed in a Noreascon II Dealer's Room Directory. This
place should be somewhere near MD.  Reply to NEAL@MIT-MC.  Any
help would be appreciated.
                                        --Chiron of Thessaly

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 10/11/80 11:11:35 Re: dolphins, etc.

I read that the dolphins, though not totally un-wild (I don't want
to use the term "domesticated") were Atlantic dolphins, let loose
in the Pacific.  Hmmmm.... a cetacean Shogun?

Also, Niven's "Unfinished Story #2" is in his anthology ALL THE
MYRIAD WAYS.

    Ken Haase

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1980 11:54 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: dolphins, etc.

With regard to the dolphins who were "released", I never heard the
outcome of the trial either, but I do recall that the two idiots who
"released" them did so in an area where they couldn't possibly survive
(heavily shark infested, etc. and the dolphins had been raised from
infancy in captivity so they had no experience in finding food on
their own.).

A while back I initiated a mostly offline discussion about why humans
think they have the right to kill other animals for food, etc., and
in connection with that I ran across a neat word the other day: a la
sexist and racist: speciesism.

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1980 1637-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Cosmos, 'flexible belts'

I found Cosmo's not only dull, but was offended by Sagans bombasity.
Many of the things that were presented on Cosmo's as -> FACTS <- are
theories, and several are already in doubt.  For example, have you
ever tried to unravel a rope, especially one thats already loosly
coiled?  As you unravel it, you must twirl either the ends or the
rope along the long axis.  If the rope is long, this twirling
requires a lot of energy, and can easily lead to tangles.  However,
this is exactly what Sagan pictured the DNA as doing.  Recent
experiments have shown that DNA can adopt a second form, called the
Z form, which places the base pairs near the surface of the chain.
Then, the splitting enzyme could come along, and the two strands
could relax away from each other, requiring rotation of 1 base
around two chemical bonds, a simple thing.  The new bases are
added, and the two new strands are magically sitting side by side
with no need to twirl LONG strings of DNA.  This mechanism also
accounts for tha ability to reproduce circular DNA, and DNA with
complex tertiary structures.  DNA 1, Cosmos 0.

However, I am glad Cosmos is around so that junior high kids can
watch it. Seems just right for pre-pubescent budding science majors.

As per the question of material flexiable to loop around in a flat
loop versus a typical belt loop.  I remember seeing somewhere a
luggage moving belt that did just that.  It consisted however, of
rigid metal plates that overlapped, rather than abutted.  When it
came time for them to go around a corner, the part of the plate
near the inside radius just overlapped more, while the outside
portion stayed constant.  It would be little tricky to stand on,
but I imagine standing on a streaching rubber band would be tooo.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1980 (Friday) 1404-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Future transportation

Taking up the transportation flame...  

One of the most efficient,  (and still underused), methods of  getting
from place to place  within a small environment  is the bicycle.   The
bicycle is  so \simple/  that it  is rarely  dealt with  in SF.   (The
Wright Bros.  in Niven's "Flying Sorcerers" are a notable and humorous
exception).  Why?  Because our  visions of the  future are always  too
blasted full of hi-techinous.

For a book  (loosely bordering  on SF)  that sketches  out a  low-tech
future, I recommend  Ernst Callenbach's "Ecotopia".   He draws a  very
interesting picture  of  what  might happen  if  Northern  California,
Oregon, and Washington were  to cede from the  Union.  When the  aero-
space firms in  Washington collapse, they  are taken over  and put  to
work making electric  trains.  Bicycles are  distributed freely  about
population centers (an  idea already  taken up  by a  number of  large
companies for inter-lab transport).  Etc Etc Etc.

You needn't agree with  Callenbach's ideas about  Utopia to enjoy  the
book.

Now:  Any other incidences of bicycles in SF?  

-- Dave Smith 

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1980 1220-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer W. Thomas)
Subject: Efficient transport

The most efficient (well, almost - Only exceeded by some soaring
birds, I think) mode of transportation known is ... A person on a
bicycle!  Efficiency here is defined in terms of energy expended
per useful mass moved (I.e., the person - the bicycle doesn't
count).  Think about it - what other transport do you know that
can reach 30mph easily with a 1/4 (max) horsepower motor?  Now,
if they could only figure out some way to keep dry....

-Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 11 OCT 1980 1051-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: Some thoughts on transportation

     For sheer efficiency, very few modes of transport beat the
bicycle, especially on a downhill slope.  But bicycles are only good
transport for the person pumping the pedals -- they are troublesome
for groceries, impossible for furniture and severely affected by bad
weather.  The addition of a small engine gives you a moped, which at
least permits distance and uphill motion for those not in excellent
shape.  Not to mention enough speed to permit being a reasonable part
of traffic, rather than an impediment.  Add an enclosure and you are
protected from weather -- another wheel and a basket permits limited
furniture transport.  But now you have to increase engine size.

     Still, take this basic three wheel vehicle and make it of
fiberglas with a stroke engine, and it won't weigh much more than
the passenger.  Then supply with it additions, like extra seats
and a trailer or two, removable roofs and doors, etc, and you have
a vehicle for which you can maximize efficiency dependant upon the
job at hand.  You'll need a lot of garage space, though.

     My own opinion is that if the Postal System would get reasonable
and computer terminals were commonplace in the home, a good deal of
the need for transport of the human being would be removed.  This is
not a new idea, but I think it is valid. 

Stan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1980 0909-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: transportation

A while ago the NY times had an article about what they called
"Phase III" bicycles.  The main diferences between them and
ordinary bikes are a shell to cut wind resistance and a more
efficient use of leg motion.  Even the experimental models are
enormously faster than regular bikes; a two man job went at 40+
mph for 50 miles down a California highway.  So here is one way
to go if energy efficiency is what you're worried about.  If we
have the energy I see nothing wrong with private transport, be
it car or helicopter with computer control for takeoff and
landing.  Urban planners always seem suspiciously eager to
bring people under control by stuffing them into
buses/monorails/slideways.

------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1980 at 2348-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ COMPUTERS AND FILK SONGS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Even if, from what more experienced hacker-filkers have told me,
it's not feasible to write out a melody with a line-printer, it
seemed to me there OUGHT to be something related to filking one
can use a computer for, beyond just typing out the words.

Here's a system I've come up with which does go beyond just the
words. Not much, but a bit-- enough that for a person who learns
new songs slowly, like myself, it's worth the bother.

IN TEXT:
Hyphen or blank separate syllables sung on different notes.
Underscore connects same-note syllables in different words.
Wavy line marks syllable sung on more than one note.

IN CHORDS:
Capitals signify major key.
Lower case followed by ~ signifies minor key.
  But lower case b after another letter is a flat.
Apostrophes mark seventh chords.
Number signs, of course, would be sharps.
Slashes mark options.


Here's part of "Hope Eyrie" by Leslie Fish (and, according to
one of my sources, Mary Froman), the "SF National Anthem".

g~      d~   g~       d~        D
Worlds grow old and~ suns grow cold,

       g~       F'        Bb  D
  And Death we nev-er can doubt.

 g~          F             Bb       F'
Time's cold wind wail-ing down the past

      Bb       D        g~    F  D
  Re-minds_us that all flesh is grass,

     g~          d~          g~
And His-to-ry's lamps blow~ out.  But...

        Bb         F       D                  g~  D/F
   The Eag-le has landed, tell_your chil-dren when~.

    g~         F/D      g~     d~/D      g~
   Time_won't drive_us down_to dust~ a~-gain!

------------------------------

Date:  9 Oct 1980 0412-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>,
      Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: For any trek people out there

         "Star Trek" Creator Says New TV Episodes May Be Made

    CONWAY, Ark. (AP) - Devoted fans of "Star Trek" - grieved when
the five-year mission of the USS Enterprise was cut short, not by
marauding Klingons or Romulans but by earth-bound ratings - may be
in for a treat.
    Gene Roddenberry, creator of the 1960s science-fiction television
series, says talks are under way to produce new television episodes
featuring Capt. Kirk, Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy.
    Roddenberry told an audience at the University of Central Arkansas
at Conway Tuesday that he had been negotiating with Paramount Pictures
about the possibility of producing the new series.
    After his speech, Roddenberry said Paramount executives had
contacted him several times last week and had arranged to meet
with him when he returns to Hollywood next week.
    The release last December of "Star Trek - The Motion Picture,"
which he produced, apparently spawned the interest in a new series,
Roddenberry said.
    "We currently have a recession in Hollywood that has kept us
from doing a sequel" to the movie, he added.
    "Paramount has called me a couple of times during the last week
while I've been away from the city, saying that they don't want to
keep 'Star Trek' on the shelf while we're waiting to do a sequel and
they want me to talk to them immediately when I get back to town about
finding some way to bring 'Star Trek' back to television," he said.
    The original series, which went on the air in 1966, acquired a
cult following although it had only a three-year prime-time run on
NBC.  Ten years later, reruns of the show, which featured one-hour
encounters between the valiant Enterprise crew and a host of cosmic
villains, were being carried on more than 140 stations and in 47
other countries.
    Conventions of Trekkies, as devotees are known, drew thousands
to hear speakers affiliated with the show and trade in Star Trek
memorabilia.
    Roddenberry said he would not be interested in making a weekly
series like the original, but would favor "six or eight 90-minute
or two-hour shows each year."
    He said he thought the original cast of the show - including
William Shatner as Kirk, Leonard Nimoy as the half-Vulcan Spock and
DeForest Kelly as "Bones" McCoy - would not be receptive to anything
but the 90-minute to two-hour schedule.
    Roddenberry also said the production costs for the new episodes
would be much higher than the costs of the series in 1966 when each
episode cost a few thousand dollars to produce. He said the cost of
a new series would exceed $1 million per two-hour episode.
    The original series was by Norway Productions in association with
Paramount TV and NBC.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 OCT 1980 0743-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #104
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Monday, 13 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:
               SF Books - Bicycles, Future - Transportation,
            What is SF? - Willy Wonka, SF Film Trailer Marathon,
      SF TV - Connections & Cosmos, Alien Intelligence - Communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 10/12/80 14:15:57 Re: Bycycles in SF

R.A.H. in "Rolling Stones" had prospectors using 'sandcycles'
(bicycles fitted with large flotation tires).

                                Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

ZEMON@MIT-MC 10/12/80 21:58:06 Re: Bicycles in SF and Transportation

     Two stories bought to mind here.  One is called (I \think/) THE
SCHWARTZKIND RADIUS, author unknown, all I can remember about it is
that it was a short story in an Analog many years back, and that it
is rather weird.

     The other is RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA, by Arthur C. Clark, in which
use is made of a bicycle based low-gee flying machine to explore the
interior of a gigantic 'generation' starship.  This is a good book .
. . .

     Pretty much all of the transportation methods I can think of
involve machines or little boxes that move around the countryside,
and that necessarily weigh more than the passenger does.  (I do not
consider a bicycle to be transportation in the sense that I would
want to ride one from New York to Boston in mid-winter.)  But has
anyone thought of using genetic engineering (assuming it is
possible...) to create living transportation?  I can just imagine a
beast modeled after Niven's 'Racing Viprin' (a creature used by the
Slaver race for gambling purposes, and specially bred by the Tnuctip
to be \fast/), only built for 50 passengers and running on waste
paper and krill.  Or what about a blimp-beast filled with hydrogen
(remember the Hindenburg?)  al la John Varley's Whistlestop?

     Note that all you have to do is feed these beasts in order to
make them work, and since you have to engineer them to begin with,
you can fix it up so they can eat all kinds of wondrous by-products
of civilization (leftover tin cans?  Non-returnable bottles?).  Also
note that you don't need to have big, smelly factories in order to
make more of them . . . .

     Remember, the idea is that we are running out of power and
resources to fuel (or even construct) personal vehicles as
expensive as cars.  Think cheap.  Get a horse!

                -Landon-

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 10/12/80 14:22:18 Re: More on bicycles

I am a regular bike rider (in our house, 5 bikes for 3 people) and it
is very difficult for a rider on a single bike to hit 30 mph on the
flat.  I am in good shape and can only maintain 18-20 mph on the flat.

On the other hand, my wife and I on our tandem can maintain 25 mph
with peaks of 30 mph.  Why?  Here mass is unimportant (unless we are
going uphill and are converting kinetic to potential energy).  A
tandem has the wind resistance of 1 bike/person with the power of 2
people.

                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 11 OCT 1980 2134-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: More thoughts on transportation

     Given that the main objection to "rolling Roads" is all the
excess road that has to be transported, how about roads that are
stationary of themselves, but move the object to be transported?
I can think of several ways -- a road of numerous computer-
controlled electromagnets and a steel cart to sit in, for
instance -- the cart could be moved from one side of the road to
the other, adjusted for other carts, and sent down offramps, with
the only power expended going entirely toward transportation of
the cart.  That would involve a hell of a lot of wiring, though.
    Or how about a liquid approach?  A standing wave, like, a
flexible survace under the cart, rows of plastic tubes beneath
and them connected to hydraulic pumps -- the cart would "surf"
a continuous "wave" generated beneath it, and could either be
steered by the front wheels or guided by wave variation.  Again,
you wouldn't have to move a lot of excess road, but I"m not sure
whether it's all that efficient.  Just playing with ideas... 

Stan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1980 1134-PDT
From: Andrew Knutsen <knutsen at SRI-KL>
Subject: cheap mass transit

     It seems to me that the primary inefficiency of most current
tranportation methods isnt shoving the 'box' around, but shoving
the engine+fuel around. However, if you talk about 'rolling roads',
then the 'box' becomes the entire road which is indeed rather heavy.
     Thus, I think a better system would be a compromise: individual
cars, collectively powered (with individual power available for
convenience or emergency). One possiblity would be a roadway with
room-temperature-superconducting cables laid in it to form a linear
motor, and the car containing only a magnet or superconducting loop
of some sort. Room temp superconductivity is being researched now,
and things dont really look too hopeless. The car could then be
reduced to a seat, or even a platform to stand on, which you might
rent from the transit authority. Or, you could have your old Rolls
modified....

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1980 0947-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: TRANSPORTATION

In our discussions, I think we would benefit from considering two
points very seriously.  First, let's not use the term "efficient"
(or its variants) without being extremely clear about what kind of
efficiency we are talking about.  In some contexts, thermodynamic
efficiency is appropriate; in others, human use of time and energy
is more important.  Telling me about the inefficiency of moving a
2K kg container to get me around is no more useful than telling me
that you don't like it.  Rather, tell me about the overall energy
usage, and the cost of producing that energy.

Second, while I'm sure we will have some very useful discussions
about some plans violating physical constraints, I hope we can
discuss violations of basic economic constraints (and, in this
society, their political determinants).  For example, considering
the costs of "quantal" transportation, let's not forget the multi-
hundred billion dollars of tax money (current dollars) spent on
developing and maintaining that system.  Tanstaafl is fundamental
to both thermodynamics and economics.  What are the costs?  Who
pays them?  Who benefits?  are questions that must be asked about
any seriously considered new technology.
                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1980 at 0600-CDT
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Willy Wonka / Connections / SF Marathon

Several items:

1) Would anyone out there consider the film "Willy Wonka and the
   Chocolate Factory" to be SF?  I just saw the film again and I
   still think it's great on numerous levels.  Any other fans of
   this flick out there in the gloom?

2) CONNECTIONS is a superb program.  It is one of the few shows
   (other than "The Prisoner") that I actually altered my schedule
   around to avoid missing segments. This time around, here in L.A.,
   it is closed captioned. If I manage to throw together an interface
   between the closed captioning box I am experimenting with and my
   micro I may be able to collect transcripts of the program, which
   could be pretty interesting!  By the way, the oddness of PBS rerun
   scheduling is due to a combination of factors, including agreements
   with member stations, copyright considerations, and a host of other
   things that interact in complex ways.

3) I have been told that on Dec. 11 here in L.A., the famous NUART
   theatre will be holding an almost 5 hour "marathon" of SF billed
   as "the history of SF movies as seen via the trailers and previews
   for such films."  I am a real trailer fan, so I'll sure be there.

4) I have not been able to stomach COSMOS, but I guess it is better
   than nothing given the crap that makes up 99% of the television
   schedule.  The "look of awe" was enough to turn me off at the
   start...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1980 2338-EDT
From: SHULMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: Cosmos and the General Public

Here is a view on Cosmos from my girlfriend who has no great
scientific or computer background, but is a science fiction fan:

     For those of you that dislike Carl Sagan's Cosmos and who
are either scientists or have a scientific bent, keep in mind some
important things that if not heeded, may prove to be seeds to your
own destruction.
      Why is the space program not popular now as it was in the
1960's?  I say that the general public, "the unenlightened," "the
simple," "the worker," "the uneducated," "the masses," do not see
it to their advantage to put money into it.  If they did see that
the space program could do them and their families benefit now and
in the foreseeable future, it would be active much more than it is
currently. Funds have been and continue to be slashed on any
extraneous expenditures.  Why is it seen by the "public" that the
space program is in fact extraneous?  Partly because the scientific
community looks down upon the scientist amongst themselves that can
communicate with that "public" in a cohesive, professional, non-
derogatory, lucid manner....the manner that every teacher must have
in order to be truly a good teacher.  Carl Sagan is one hell of a
good teacher, not to say anything about his ability to deal with
the black abyss of a camera lens staring down his throat in order
for his knowledge of the universe to be put into the brains of us
"ignorant," "unenlightened" folk such as myself, merely because I
do not give lip service to science when all the experiences of
science and scientists have made me feel like a pion, a nothing.

      Make sure that before you criticize and otherwise put Carl Sagan
down, that you be as good at relating science as he is, and that you
have acquired a moral consciousness, and have acquired a holistic view
of science that Mr. Sagan has.  You should appreciate that he is doing
more to help scientific endeavors get funded by us pions than you
"elite" will even do in your lifetimes, including the space program.

      Where does the money come from?  Us.  So make sure that you know
exactly where you want science to go before you turn on such a talent
in communication as Mr. Sagan, and that you do all in your power to
make sure this program stays the high-quality program it is now. That
you have a responsibility to us, the financiers of your dreams, to
make sure that your energies go also into making us understand what
the hell is going on in your thoughts on a popular media like TV,
unlike a scientific journal that we never see, nor do we ever want to
see, nor should we ever be expected to see.  You have your interests,
talents, and brains and we on this side have our interests, talents,
and brains.  I, for one, am very tired of being looked down on by
scientists because I want to understand science in my own terms,
and not in a jargon that blows me out. Carl Sagan gets to the people
in their own terms, and i think <God damn it> that you should not
look down on him or what he symbolizes for that reason. If so, kiss
scientific research goodbye, because I, and everyone else, want to
know about what's happening in the field of life that has made our
world materially abundant and morally sick as since the renaissance,
and if we do not, it is out of mind, and out of funds.  So I ask you
to rethink your commitments if you have made up your mind that you
cannot see any positive reasons why Carl Sagan should stay on the
air. So you feel embarrassed that he is kissing our asses?  Tough.

      We are the quality control group, us pions, the control group
that either likes what it sees because it is spoken in a language
we can understand, or will get rid of things we have no interest in.
It is your business to make sure we understand the things that are
obvious to you, your responsibility, not ours.  Popular science has
its place.  Don't degrade its worth.  It is valuable.  Maybe not to
you per se, but to your cause.

                                   Laura
                                      via Jeff at RUTGERS

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1980 21:18:07-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: dolphins, &c.

As I remember, in the case of the released dolphins, the judge
ruled against the two who released them, but did not give them
maximal penalties.  It could be looked up for certain in the
papers.  I'm not sure myself how I feel about this.  After all,
those two assistants who "freed" the dolphins, although they
botched the specifics, could well be right.  What gives us the
right to imprison and/or experiment on other intelligent beings?
But how can we tell if they're intelligent without scientific
study and attempts at communication? Is this a case of ends vs.
means?  Boy, I'm glad I'm not God, who (might) have to reach
decisions on questions like this.

The ethical question raised by Karen about humans killing other
animals to survive raises points about which, in contrast, I have
resolved my own doubts.  As animals, we are natural creatures, and
thus exist within Nature's laws.  We are not unique in omnivorism.
Other omnivores also kill others to eat, so I feel no compunction
in killing to eat.  (Killing for sport, however, seems to be
generally a human perversion.)  We tend, since we analyze the food
chain, to consider ourselves outside of it, sort of living off it
at other animals' expense.  While we certainly have the power to
abuse our dependency, we are part of the natural process; indeed,
we are a result of it.  Our participation the creation/destruction
cycle, recognized by the Hindu mythology, is as natural as the
bear's or the orangutan's, and therefore no less (or more) valid.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 OCT 1980 0728-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #105
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 14 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:
          Landmark SF Query Reminder, Filksongs - Milieu Query,
       Candidates on Technology, SF Books - Masquerade & Bicycles,
   Future - Transportation, SF TV - Cosmos, Alien Intelligence - Sport
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 1955-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: final notice for poll

For all of you procrastinators out there who haven't sent in your
votes for the landmark poll, FRIDAY IS THE LAST DAY FOR ACCEPTANCE
OF YOUR VOTES. Please be sure to send them in to POLL@MIT-AI prior
to this deadline.  And for those of you who don't think your vote
counts, please DO vote.  The more informed people who vote, the
more people can rely on the list to give them an accurate guide
to excellent reading.

[ Note the poll ballot can still be obtained from the file
  DUFFEY;SFLVRS LNDMRK on MIT-AI, or by sending a message
  asking for it to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI.       --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 at 2220-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MIGRATIONS OF PERSECUTED PEOPLES IN SF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROC-KON, which is coming up this weekend, is strong on filk.
(It's a nice, cozy, relaxed little con. Compared to others in this
area -- not as much program activity as AGGIECON, but more than
OTHERCON and ARMADILLOCON, and the authors are nicely accessible.
There's usually a few other than the official ones <Offutt and Jo
Clayton this year>, such as Lee Killough and Suzette Haden Elgin
that I know of so far.) (Hotel rate for the con rose 15% over last
year -- to $22 for a single. Tsk tsk!)

Anyhow, I've got a potential filk song I'm looking for an SF book
to apply it to.  I had planned it for Dickson's Dorsai universe,
as an emigration hymn to the Friendly planets, but according to
Margaret Middleton, there are already 37 Dorsai filksongs that she
knows of, so I'm looking for some other less heavily filked fictional
SF milieu. The words could be adapted, if it would help.  (The melody
is Tchaikovsky's "Marche Slav", but based on a folk motif found in
Jewish, Spanish, Basque, and Slavic songs. This version of the words
is not original, but a Zionist hymn.)  The persecution or the reason
for migration needn't be religious for the filk adaptation.

          Lo we walk a narrow way,
          Far from sun or light of day.
          Sought by foes on every hand
          March we thru a darkning land.
            God of mercy, God of might,
            Hear the prayer we raise tonite:
            Out of sorrow bring us gladness;
            Out of darkness bring us light.

          Humbled we and bound in chains,
          Yet our trust in Thee remains,
          For Thy promise is secure,
          Ever faithful, ever sure.
            God of mercy, God of might...

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 at 0854-CDT
From: david at UTEXAS 
Subject: Presidential candidates views on technology and engineering

For all you technology buffs who are planning to vote; in the
October issue of IEEE's "Spectrum" (pp. 53-58) there is a special
report of questions asked of Anderson, Carter, and Reagan on their
views on technology and engineering issues.  (Wonder why, as with
the "Sierra Club Bulletin", Reagan alone chose not to reply to the
questionnaire?  His views are reported from his official policy
statements.)

Speaking of SPS and space exploration in general, I read in "Science
News" that John B. Anderson has a significant space research plank in
his Presidential campaign platform.  Anderson appears to be the only
Presidential candidate with an interest in promoting space.  There
are many specific points in the space plank; two that I recall are
continued and increased exploration of the solar system, and increased
research to determine whether or not we should proceed with SPS.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 1056-PDT (Monday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Masquerade

   "Masquerade", that mysterious children's picture book with clues
for a $20000 buried treasure, has been published in the USA.  If you
like this sort of thing, it's probably worth the $10 price-tag for
the spectacular artwork alone.  Knowing that there are clues hidden
within makes it all the more fascinating (is the honeycomb signifi-
cant? Why is there a broken doll on the beach?)
   It seems to me that someone in SF-Lovers wanted to start a
"Masquerade" discussion a while back.  WHat became of that?

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1980 1431-MDT
From: THOMAS at UTAH-20 (Spencer W. Thomas)
Subject: Bicycles as transportation

Not an example of bicycles in Sci-Fi, but an interesting proposal for
the use of bicycles in the National Parks is put forward by Ed Abbey
in his book *Desert Solitaire*.  He feels (felt - the book is already
over 10 years old) that the National Parks are overcrowded with mecha-
nized transport, and that people don't get enough appreciation of the
parks by zipping from one viewpoint to another in self-propelled metal
shells.  The idea, then, is to park all vehicles at the entrance, and
issue everybody a bicycle (camping gear, etc.  would be trucked into
the campground by park employees). Not only would traffic congestion
go way down (ever been to Yellowstone, Yosemite or Grand Canyon in the
middle of the summer?), but people would get exercise, appreciate the
park better because they would be in it, rather than looking out at
it, and in general get more out of the experience.  He presents the
idea in much more flaming detail in the book (which is excellent
anyway), along with some comments on how to accomodate those who
couldn't handle the effort, etc.

-S

------------------------------

Date: 13 OCT 1980 1701-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: 'flexible belts'

Dolata's msg reminds me of seeing an airport luggage belt that went
around corners without the need for an overlap.  To visualize, take an
ordinary belt and cut into a series of equal-size segments by drawing
arcs with diameter ca. 1.2 x beltwidth slightly farther apart than the
arc radius; each piece is attached to the one behind by an arm which
allows the piece to pivot around the center of the arc that is its
trailing edge.  This is still seen in several smaller airports (vis.
Washington National).

------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 10/13/80 19:33:32 Re: Future Transportation

-- TRANSPORTATION --

People have complained about roads as conveyor belts as represented
in Heinlein's THE ROADS MUST ROLL as being an inefficient means of
transportation because of a number of reasons, some of those being
energy efficiency and the problems of handicapped people using them.
Instead of building them as a single conveyor belt, how about building
them as a variable speed conveyor belt (by this I mean a conveyor belt
that at different locations on it can have different speeds). This can
be done by building them as a number of small conveyor belts, each of
them having its own speed and controls.  This immediately eliminates
the problem of expending lots of energy dragging the whole road behind
you.  I don't know if the energy needed to drag lots of little roads
is less than that of dragging one big road. Anyone with more knowledge
care to speculate?  These smaller belts could be sensor controlled,
operating only when there is a chance that someone is close enough
to use them.  This could be done by stopping any belts with people
too far away to use them, and when people get somewhat close start
speeding the belts up to a waiting speed, and if people are very
close speed the belt up to its normal running speed.  This should
save a lot of energy at nighttime or for places such as the middle
of Kansas with very small people to area ratios.
  An analogous construct to on-ramps on freeways coulld be developed
by creating on-belts which would gradually speed the rider up to the
speed of the lane that he was entering.  If this was done gradually
enough, the rider should not even notice it and handicapped people
in wheelchairs should have no problems using it.  This would preclude
needing the agility to ride the walkways that was demonstrated in
Asimov's THE CAVES OF STEEL.  Off-ramps could be done the same way
but on- and off-ramps could only be unidirectional (come to think
of it, they already are on freeways.)  This setup of multiple belts
might preclude on-line steakhouses.  Seats could be done as portable
affairs, picked up upon entrance to the roadway and dropped off on
leaving it.  Balance however might be a problem with non-fixed chairs.
An interesting thought just occured to me.  What if you rode a bicycle
on one of these roads?  Think of the speed-up that would give you.
Another advantage of a multiple belt roadway is that it is a simple
matter to curve the path of belts to get a curved road without needing
a special material.  One safeguard necessary for one of these roads
is for the situation (a la tRMR) of one belt somewhere in the middle
stopping.  Belts leading to that belt should have a gradual slowdown
so that passengers don't go flying because of accumulated momentum.
Belts leading away from that belt should gradually speed up so that
the passengers are brought back up to standard cruising speed.  This
feature would also have the effect of stopping any problems such as
those that arose in tRMR.

 - Bruce

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 10/13/80 21:19:22 Re: Rolling roads

Once you get the road rolling, the only energy you have to put into it
is to accelerate the load (or 'box' or 'car' or whatever) and energy
to overcome frictional and other losses.  As I pointed out yesterday,
on our tandem bike we can go faster for the same energy input as we
have the power of two with the losses of one.
                                        Brian Lloyd

P.S. The bicycle is a very viable form of transportation.  I ride 30mi
     round trip to work every day and I love it (except when it snows,
     then I drive).

------------------------------

JGA@MIT-MC 10/13/80 10:26:48 Re: how large?

Q. How large does an antigravity device (plus small propulsive jet)
   have to be?

A. As big as a four dimensional breadbox.

------------------------------

Date: 13 October 1980 23:47-EDT
From: Daniel L. Weinreb <dlw at MIT-AI>

In reply to Laura via Jeff at Rutgers: I, and my group of friends
here at MIT, all feel that clear presentation of science to non-
scientists is extremely important and valuable.  Our objection
to COSMOS is precisely that it is doing a BAD JOB at presenting
science. We are afraid that it will mislead people and bore people.
We are disappointed that Sagan does not seem to be doing his job
well.  You seem to feel he IS doing it well and that the show is
interesting; maybe we're wrong about those things.  But we
certainly have no basic differences with you.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 10/13/80 21:40:21 Re: Several goodies

1) Here is my vote for "Willie Wonka" as SF.

2) Carl Sagan and Cosmos; The response I have seen from my
   "unenlightened" friends is 'Ho Hum'.  No matter how good
   Sagan is, he didn't cut it on this one.

3) People and the space program: People generally are too dumb
   to follow the links from space program to microwave oven. The
   only links they see are from their paychecks (tax witholding)
   to rockets disappearing in the blue (if they go up and don't
   come down, we lost something).  What do you expect from a
   society that pays it's sports idols millions and allows it's
   children to grow up ignorant (I don't think too highly of our
   public education system).

4) Is a pion a subatomic particle?

5) There are examples of other creatures hunting for sport.

Until tomorrow, this is Brian Lloyd saying,

        "Keep those cards and letters coming folks!"

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 11:14 PDT
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: dolphins, &c.

Any one who has ever seen a cat torture a mouse will dispute the
contention that "Killing for sport ... seems to be generally a human
perversion".  In fact, as we study our mamalian and other friends in
the animal kingdom, we find that many are capable of using tools and
language (depending on your definition thereof), engaging in homo-
sexual behavior, and generally doing the sorts of things that people
do, "perverted" and otherwise.  The main difference seems to be that
they don't get neurotic about it all, unless they're cooped up in a
cage or some such.  Or if they do get hang-ups or weaknesses, they
find that they (the animals) won't be around for long to worry about
them, in their dog-eat-dog world.

--Bruce

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 10/13/80 20:43:05

There is evidence that humans are not the only race which demonstrates
the "hunt for sport" complex.  There is some evidence that playful
cruelty is a province shared by man and dolphin (and who else?) as
well.  There is an account of the following episode taking place at
a commerical aquarium (maybe Marineland).

     A dolphin was playfully chasing a moray eel around the pool.
The eel, irritated, swam into some coral, leaving only a small part
of himself exposed.  This was in a cranny too narrow for the dolphins
to reach.  After futilely trying to reach the eel, the dolphin got a
fellow dolphin to "help".  The other dolphin took a scorpion fish (a
stinging, sometimes poisonous spined fish) by the singular safe grip
spot on its underside, and poked at the eel with the fishes spines.
The eel startled, rushed from its crevice, to be caught by the first
dolphin, who started the chase again.

     Of course, the dolphin was simply "pulling a prank" as opposed
to man's hunting of animals.  While I don't hunt, I think that the
hunter doesn't look at his hobby as a prank on some less intelligent
creature.  Any comments?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 OCT 1980 0749-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #106
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 15 Oct 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:       SF Books - Masquerade & Unfinished Tales,
                 Future - Transportation, Alien Intelligence - Sport,
                SF TV - Cosmos & New StarTrek Episodes, StarTrek novel
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 09:23 PDT
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Masquerade

I was the one who asked (on June 16) if anyone was interested in
collaberating on solving Masquerade puzzles thru SF-LOVERS.  I only
got ONE reply, from Clive, who said it sounded "very intriguing", but
who hadn't seen the book.  Not a very broad base for collaberation. I
still think it could be fun, if we can get a critical mass together.

        /Teri

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 1039-PDT (Monday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: "Unfinished Tales"

  The new Tolkien book is out.  While I haven't read even half of it,
I think I've read enough to produce a helpful review, so here goes.

   This book ("Unfinished Tales" by JRR Tolkien, $15 from Houghton
Mifflin) is definitely not a book for a general readership, nor even
for the mass Tolkien consumer, who thinks that Lord of the Rings is a
swell story, but all that linguistic and historical stuff is just a
lot of window-dressing.  Rather than a narrative, it's really a sort
of organized memory dump of Tolkien's filing cabinet.  It includes
a much longer version of the tale of Turin, a large fragment of the
story of Tuor, substantial information on Numenor and the line of
kings, various versions of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn,
some fascinating fragementary material on the Five Wizards, and
jillions of footnotes and appendices to all, which describe variant
versions, point out apparent contradictions, and provide fascinating
supplementary information.  Because of its fragmentary nature, you
can pretty much start anywhere in the book, which has its advantages.

   For the true Tolkien fanatic, the sort of person who wants the
names for the other two Istari, who is fascinated by the explanation
of the Teleri dialect of Elvish, or who was curious as to just why
the cats of Queen Beruthiel were proverbial, this book is an absolute
gold mine, even more "fun" in its way than the Silmarillion.  For the
reader interested in a dramatic narrative, "Unfinished Tales" will be
somewhat of a disappointment (although what narrative there is is
quite good).  The $15 tag will probably deter all but the hard-core
anyway, however.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 OCT 1980 1053-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: rolling roads

   The question then becomes "HOW MUCH energy is lost to friction,
compared to the energy costs of acceleration?" (I have heard that
fairly effective regenerative braking systems (i.e., brakes which
slow the vehicle by acting as generators, converting kinetic energy
into electromotive energy) are available, but I have no figures for
their net efficiency.)
   With regard to wheelchairs, it seems to me that motorized models
can already go fast enough to make a smooth transition --- and
unmotorized ones (admittedly rolled by people in good condition)
have in the past few years been beating the best times on foot for
the Boston Marathon.  A bigger problem would be people on crutches
(my guess is that a large fraction of these are temporary rather
than permanent, but that would mostly affect the social (as
opposed to technical) factors of the problem); a short, parallel,
accelerating belt would help these onto the slowest conveyor but
after that there'd be problems.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 13:27 PDT
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Rolling roads

Guess what: the SAME conveyor can be moving at different speeds
at the same time. All that is required are elastic links. Consider
that the requirement for equilibrium is simply that the speed
in LINKS-PER-SECOND be the same for every point on the conveyor.
Thus, if we want to go twice as fast over one section of conveyor,
we simply double the length of the links!  Of course this implies
that objects such as chairs, freight pallets, steak joints, etc.,
can only be fastened down at one end.  I've seen this phenomenon
employed somewhere or other; it may have been in a baggage-
handling system.

--Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 2340-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: future transportation

a) Note that the closest current technology to "rolling roads" is
   railroads, and that they are more efficient than cars and trucks.
   If you could get theoretical mechanical optimality, the rolling
   road would be more efficient than any vehicle that has to start
   and stop.  A good way to get on and off is to have the road mesh
   with the edge of a, say, 1000 foot radius circular platform turning
   at 1 rpm.  you come down onto the middle of the platform and move
   out to the edge, where you have a minute to step over the invisible
   line (the road goes around the loop, and disengages near where it
   engaged).

b) My personal favorite for short-range personal transportation would
   be a jetbelt or antigrav equivalent.  I commute 8 miles and one
   would be ideal for this.  Build another one into my suitcase and
   I'll be all set to hop over to the nearest RR (rolling road).

c) I am given to understand that the most dangerous activity commonly
   engaged in is bicycle riding (on streets where there are cars).
   Now danger of death or maiming may add spice to your commuting,
   but my last two bikes were stolen, so I don't do it anymore.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 at 2018-CDT
From: wilcox at UTEXAS 
Subject: intelligent 'pranks'

About a year ago a TV special on the marine iguana of the Galapagos
islands had a sequence with a baby otter (seal?) 'playing' with an
iguana.  It was under water and the otter wouldnt let it ashore.
If it simply sat on the ocean bottom clutching a rock, the otter
couldnt do anything.  But whenever it would try to swim ashore the
otter would grab it by the tail and drag it back out to sea.

I've seen similar events between cats and birds, and between squirrels
and birds (the Grackle birds around here are about as big as cats!).
They will keep the animal from getting to cover (or a tree) by diving
on it.  When it stands still it can defend itself.  But whenever it
tries to run, its airraid time.

                  --Jim

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 2313-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Peony, the state of being a peon

    In speaking of killing for sport, Bruce (Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC)
said the following about "perversion" amongst animals.

        . . . as we study our mammalian and other friends in the
        animal kingdom, we find that  many are capable of  using
        tools  and  language   (depending  on  your   definition
        thereof), engaging in homosexual behavior, and generally
        doing the sorts  of things that  people do,  "perverted"
        and otherwise.   The main  difference seems  to be  that
        they don't  get neurotic  about it  all, unless  they're
        cooped up in a cage or some such.

    I understand that homosexuality arises in animals only after  they
have heavily overpopulated  their environment.  I  once heard a  claim
that it occurs "naturally" in a certain species of desert lizard,  but
that hardly makes  it common.   The point  is that  our society  often
drives us to extremes of behavior.

                                 * * *

    Brian Lloyd (at MIT-AI)  wanted to know if  a pion is a  subatomic
particle.  Indeed it is.  Pion is short for pi-meson.  Laura (Shulman,
I take it),  friend of Jeff  (at Rutgers), meant  "peon", which  comes
from the Latin for "foot soldier" and is used to refer to a member  of
an inferior class.  She might be  interested to hear that "pion"  also
happens to be French for "pawn".

------------------------------

GRUDIN@MIT-AI 10/15/80 00:24:04 Re: COSMOS

For those who gave up early, the third episode is the best to date,
with no AWE and no cosmic calendar (apologies to anyone who read
this before).  -- jonathan grudin

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1980 0220-EDT
From: Duffey at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject: COSMOS

The cover story for the 20 Nov 1980 issue of TIME is entitled "Showman
of Science - Astronomer Carl Sagan".  Good, if nothing particularly
new.  In a boxed section entitled "A Gift for Vividness" TIME lists a
number of Sagan's sayings on various subjects. The one for SF is:

   [It] does very well in attracting youngsters to science but not
   in sustaining that attraction. Over the years, science fiction has
   become less and less intriguing to me. It turns out that science
   itself is much more subtle and intricate, with the added virtue
   of being true.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 0354-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Unseen STAR TREK episodes (?)

A few minutes ago, I was wandering around the Math Science building
here at UCLA on my way back from a snack and a "every cup individually
brewed" cup of vending machine coffee.

On a random bulletin board I found the following rather odd
announcement.  It was offset printed on an 8 1/2 by 11 inch piece
of paper, all in a simple elite typeface except for a banner line
drawn in with red marking pen.

  -----

                          BELIEVE IT OR NOT
                          -----------------

How would you like to see NEW, NEVER BEFORE SHOWN EPISODES OF ........

                             STAR   TREK 

That's right, you've read correctly
--- STAR TREK --- The Real Thing --- The Original ---.  Our Field
representative will be in the Los Angeles Area to answer your
questions about this most unusual offer, so don't let skepticism
keep you away.  This offer IS LIMITED so call right away for further
information.  Phone 874-6700 Ext. 123 and ask for Mr. Om.  If busy
or unavailable, please leave your name and telephone number. There
is no obligation, and you'll be happy you called, Promise!!!

Written inquiries:

        The United Federation of Star Trek Fan Clubs, Ltd.
        "A closely held corporation"
        International Headquarters
        P.O. Box 20227
        Chicago, Illinois  60620
        Phone: (312) 783-3850

Field Rep in your area now so Check Us Out, and you'll say
"Now That's Incredible".

  -----

Hmmm.  Whadaya think, gang?  As far as I know, the only "lost"
episode of Trek might be considered to be the original pilot,
"The Cage".  I saw it once locally, in B&W (supposedly all the
color prints are "missing".)  It was later chopped up and redited
into the two-part "The Menagerie" episode.

I am not what could be considered a diehard Trek fan -- I am not in
touch with Trek fandom at all. Does anyone know anything about these
United Federation people?  I wonder if they are for "real"?  Anyway,
maybe I'll give them a call tomorrow.  This oughta be REALLY
amusing...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 1105-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: UPDATE on United Federation

So I called the L.A. phone number listed for "Mr. Om".  It turned out
to be a motel, and Mr. Om had "checked out".

Cough.  Choke.  Wheeze.  Sounds pretty fishy to me.  If anyone out
there cares to check with the Chicago number for "United Federation"
in my last message, I'm sure we'd all be curious as to what you learn.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/15/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It talks
about a new Star Trek novel by Vonda McIntyre and gives away an event
in the plot.  People who prefer to read novels without foreknowledge,
may not wish to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1980 0204-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: spoiler warning?   

    EDMONTON, Alberta (AP) - Page 113 of Vonda McIntyre's latest novel
could make the award-winning science fiction writer unpopular with
Star Trek fans around the globe.
    It is on that page of the new Star Trek novel, due to be released
next June, that the Seattle writer kills off the handsome Captain
Kirk, leader of the USS Enterprise for 15 years.
    Ms. McIntyre, 32, gave a sneak preview of the novel over the past
weekend at Norcan, a regional science fiction convention.
    P.S., it is actually Dr. McCoy who pulls the plug on Captain
Kirk's life-support system.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 OCT 1980 0812-EDT
From: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Sent-by: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #107
To: (@FILE [DSK:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DISNMS]) at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 16 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:
                         Asimov on Tomorrow,
     SF Books - Bicycles & Military sexuality & Plot/Title Query,
   SF TV - New StarTrek Episodes & Cosmos, Future - Transportation,
                        SF at the World Series
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 1980 at 0410-CDT
From: Lauren at UCLA-SEC*$(2@PBjdJ\@.JR\fhJR\R&jDTJFht@&,@B\H@($$.h@B``JBdf@XRVJXr@hPBh@fBBF@fRZ^l@nRXX@B``JBd@Bf@B@NjJfh@^\@hPJD(^Z^dd^nD@fP^n@hPRf@JlJ\R\N@P(PjdfHBr@JlJ\R\N^dRHBr@^d\R\NR\@fBr@DXRVJXrD@DJFBjfJ@@^\Xr@FBjNPh@hPJ@hBRX@J\H@^L@B\@B\\^j\FJZJ\hF^\FJd\R\N@LjhjdJ@`d^NdBZfX@B\H@(,@*
@H^Jf@\^h@NRlJ@fjLLRFRJ\hHJhBRX@h^@FPJFV@ZZ@Rh@^\Xr@XRfhf@hPJ@LRdfh@^L@fJlJdBX@NjJfhf\\@B\y case, it might be worthwhile to watch if you are interested.
The program runs from 12:30-2:00am.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 13 OCT 1980 1637-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: bicycles in SF

   "Or All the Seas with Oysters", Avram Davidson
   GREMLINS GO HOME!, Ben Bova and Gordon R. Dickson

(but nothing comes to mind concerning the bicycle of the future.
There was a recent LoC claiming that the 10-speed was inefficient
and outmoded next to the folding bike, but this is true only for
bicycle+something else transport as you describe, since folding
bikes are usually heavy.)

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1980 2130-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01)
Subject:  Plot identification request

Does anyone recall the author/title of a story concerning a star-
hopping doctor who is accompanied by a small, furry, telepathic
creature called (as I recall) a "fuzzy"?  (No relation to Piper's
creatures of the same name).  This doctor, it seems, is a member
of a race of traveling traders who use their fuzzies to influence
the minds of prospective customers.  It's been a VERY long time
since I read the story, and I suspect that it was intended for a
young audience (at least, I was too young to be able to tell the
difference).

                Paul Hilfinger

------------------------------

Date:  13 October 1980 11:12 edt
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Armed Forces Sexuality in SF

I've just been reading the SF-LOVERS Telezine, and it occured to me
that much of the SF I've read about the Military differs strikingly
from contemporary armies in the matter of sexuality of the soldiers.
In todays armed forces, people's (men's) sexualities are deliberately
twisted and manipulated (to make them better soldiers, I assume).
Accounts of military training stress that soldiers are insultingly
called female or gay (this puts it too mildly).

Compare this with the chela army in Bob Forwards DRAGONS EGG,
Haldeman's FOREVER WAR, and in JEM, where the soldiers have free
sexual conduct with each other.

One difference is that in two of the above, the army is made up of
men and women, but in FOREVER WAR (not a spoiler:) much of the sex
is gay.

I don't remember what happens in Heinleins's STARSHIP TROOPERS (but
R.A.H.  generally likes sexual characters).  I think all the Dorsai
(Gordon Dickson) are celibate.  On the other hand, Kate Wilhelm's THE
KILLER THING addresses this explicity: her soldiers are perverted
killers.

Other examples of Military Mentality in SF, esp. with regard to
sexuality?  Any veterans out there?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1980 1405-PDT
From: Dwight E. Cass  <CASS at USC-ISIE>
Subject: Re: Star Trek Episodes

After reading the message about UnSeen Star Trek Episodes, I gave
the Chicago Number a Buzz.  It turns out to be an Answering Service.
While they have no idea who the "United Federation of Star Trek Fan
Clubs" is, they do have a Mr. Om as a customer, and will pass my
number onto him.  I will let you know what I find out.

Enjoy,
DEC

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1980 2336-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Cosmos   

Episode #3 is indeed an order of magnitude better than the first two.
It reminds me much more of some of the "documentary" science shows
such as Nova, though at a more elementary level.  The closing lines
give a good indication of the overall tenor of the show:

  "As a boy, Kepler had been captured by a vision of cosmic splendor,
   a harmony of the worlds, which he sought so tirelessly all his
   life. Harmony in THIS world eluded him. His three laws of planetary
   motion represent, we now know, a real harmony of the worlds, but to
   Kepler they were only incidental to his quest for a cosmic system
   based on the perfect solids--a system which, it turns out, existed
   only in his mind. Yet, from his work, we have found that scientific
   laws pervade all of nature, that the same rules apply on earth as
   in the skies, that we can find a resonance, a harmony, between the
   way we think and the way the world works.  When he found that his
   long-cherished beliefs did not agree with the most precise
   observations, he accepted the uncomfortable facts; he preferred
   the hard truth to his dearest illusions.  That is the heart of
   science."

------------------------------

JGA@MIT-MC 10/13/80 12:31:48 Re: Transporation (long - 72 lines)

I think, in this transportation discussion, we are quickly realizing
that all the requirements of transportation are too diverse to be
covered by one or two mechanisms.

People have pointed out that bicycles are great (efficient in terms
of energy cost per person-kilometer) for personal, short distance
transport, but they hardly win when large bits of mass have to be
moved.  Likewise convenience usually works against (energy and
economic) efficiency when you try to optimize for all sorts of
distances.  (This is how we got the present-day automobile.)

My personal suggestion would have bicycles (rickshaw/tricycle equi-
valents for the elderly and infirm) for personal short distance
transport, electric buggies - slow but capable of carrying big
loads - for short distance bulk transport, and maglev trains for
long distance freight and passenger transport.

The electric buggies would be highly modular - different purpose
bodies on the same chassis for carrying different loads, different
motors and power sources for different duty cycles - and could be
owned by government, industry, and private individuals if they
wished.

Maglev (magnetic levitation) vehicles don't need magnets or even
super-conductors in the road.  All you need is essentially an alu-
minum-lined ditch and all the electric stuff goes in the vehicle.
The train or whatever rides on a magnetic wave created by eddy
currents in the aluminum, the currents are induced by magnets in
the vehicle. [ SEE NOTE BELOW ]  One of the worst things about
19th century railroad technology (which we are still using) is we
have all this load - tons and tons - of engine etc. concentrated
on two narrow strips of metal, and then all the ties, cinders etc.
to spread the load out again on the ground.  A maglev scheme, like
above, spreads the load out over as much, or as little, area as
you desire.

My own opinion about moving roads (a la Heinlein) is that they're
one of the more ludicrous creations of sf that I can think of.  Go
out on the nearest highway and estimate the density of trucks on a
day when traffic is moving at close to the limit.  Define "truck" any
reasonable way you want. Put the density in "trucks per truck-length",
that is what fraction of the road is occupied by truck.

OK, now it isn't the only criterion, but the amount of extraneous
mass on the road is a good thing to look at to judge some sort of
efficiency.  (Cost, certainly, probably energy as well.)  Imagine
your trucks spread evenly over the length of the road and decide
how much cost-paying freight could be moved by any machine you
could make out of that material.  I did this on a weekday afternoon
on two lanes of Highway 2 outside Boston.  I had to spread 1/30 th
of a truck over the area of an eighteen wheeler.  That's about half
a tire, a quarter of one cylinder of an engine, well... you get the
idea.  And new technology doesn't get you anything either cause I'd
bet you could apply it to discrete trucks for about the same
improvement too.

Vroom....  John.

Neat Experiment To Do If You Don't Believe Magnetic Levitation.
(Although I believed it in my head, I didn't believe it in my
 guts till I tried this.)

Get an aluminum disk, 1/4 inch thick, about a foot in diameter. 
Spin it on its axis with a 1/4 hp washing machine motor or the
like (1800 RPM).  PLEASE be careful to mount it well - it could
be as dangerous as a power saw without a guard if you don't watch
it.  Bring a permanent magnet (Alnico 2" horseshoe magnet will be
fine) close to the flat (moving) surface.  You will feel a strong
repulsive force between the magnet and the aluminum, and also a
drag force in the direction of rotation.

For those of you at MIT - go see Henry Kolm in the Magnet Lab
(NW-16) - he's got one of these that I played with at a seminar
last IAP.

 jga@mc

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1980 0943-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: rolling roads and crutches

I seem to recall reading an article about an accelerating belt that
took you from a standing start, and accelerated you up to speed while
turning you 90 degrees at the same time.  It worked by some form of
sliding plates. I think it was in Popular Science several years (many
years ?) ago.  This could solve the problem for all those lacking
athletic agility permanently or temporarily.  Of course this means
that you can't get on the rolling road wherever you feel like it
though.  It would be more like freeway onramps.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1980 09:47 PDT
From: Stewart.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Belts

I've always felt that moving belts should move faster in the middle
than at the ends.  That does imply that they should stretch.  It
seems to me that a belt could stretch either by getting thinner, or
by getting narrower.  It should be ok (up to a point) for the belt
to become narrower, because, as Bruce points out, the same number
of links (people) per second are passing any point, but on a longer
piece of belt.  Muscles can do this over (guess) nearly a 2-1 range,
just a bioengineering job for some Master's student...
        -Larry <Stewart.PA@Parc>

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1980 1508-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Free Transportation

 Shame on you all for your earth-bound thinking!  Is this the
SF-LOVERS or a convention of retired (unsucessful) city transpor-
tation engineers?  I can think of two "free" transportation systems,
both entirely practical given the right circumstances.  They suffer
the minor handicap of not being practical on the Earth, but who cares?

 The first is featured in "The World is Round" a novel about an
artifact ranking with Ringworld in its size and originality: a world
constructed as a hollow shell "only" the size of a sun, surrounding a
massive black hole.  In this universe, the major form of long distance
transport is via tube trains under the shell.  Since all points on the
surface have equal potential energy with respect to the central hole,
the trip is free.  As an amusing side effect, all trips take the same
amount of time independent of the distance traveled.
 Similar ideas have been proposed for the earth, for instance as a
transcontinental tunnel, but the engineering problems are a bit much
for current technology.

 The second example is both completely practical and inevitable for
transportation among points in free space (i.e. space colonies).  A
centrifugal sling can provide free transportation between any points
in free space. Any difference in potential energy of the origin and
destination is exactly regained on the return trip.  All you need is
sufficiently accurate aiming.

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1980 2159-EDT (Wednesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  The Umpire Really Strikes Back.

For those of you who don't watch much TV and may have missed it:

Just for the start of the 2nd World Series Ball Game today the Network
had this "THE UMPIRE STRIKES BACK" little flick.  They had some really
short scenes from the movie by a similar title.  There were also some
classic scenes from Baseballs yesteryear.  Quite an amusing flick, the
umpire who was hosting the thing was dressed as a Quasi-Darth Vadar.
                                Doug

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 OCT 1980 0815-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #108
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 18 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:           SF Books - Bicycles & Lambda I,
             Future - Transportation, SF TV - Prisoner Query & Cosmos, 
               Alien Intelligence - Sport & Communication, Star Wars 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Administrivia:

 Due to machine difficulties, there was no Friday issue of SF-LOVERS.
 Today's issue is the next issue following SFL V2 #107 ( Thursday,
 16 Oct 1980 ).                                                -- RDD

------------------------------

Date: 16 OCT 1980 1203-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: more bicycles in SF

  The latest-but-one-or-two of Chandler's John Grimes novels
has Grimes and a woman shepherded by bicycles on a planet that
a mechanical intelligence thinks should be a new Eden.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 0225-PDT (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: TAU transportation system

Since the subject of transportation has come up, I thought I'd
recommend the short SF story, "Lambda I", by Colin Kapp.  It
appears in an OLD anthology I have around here (1964) called
"Lambda I and Other Stories", edited by John Carnell.

The story involves a transportation system (called "TAU") which
managed to wipe out virtually all other forms of medium to long
range transport systems.  The TAU technique involves taking very
large ships, and "resonating" them in such a way that they can
pass right through sub-atomic spaces.  Thusly, TAU ships "slide"
through ordinary matter. They are given a "push" at the originating
terminal and travel in a straight line through the earth to their
destination.

The plot involves the major disaster that occurs when a large TAU
craft becomes trapped in TAU space, and the possibility appears of
its power failing before it could be freed (in which case it would
return to normal space sitting inside solid matter.)

I recommend it highly.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 10/16/80 16:18:45 Re: MagLev transport

     Has always seemed winning to me, but there are a couple of
bothersome things. Suppose the "train" stops, for whatever reason;
how would it get started again?  This implies that the magnetic
fields created by the train will have to be anything but static,
which implies considerable expenditure of mechanical or electrical
energy, at least when getting underway.  Remember it won't always
stop in a station...
     I also wonder what sorts of stray EM "noise" would be generated.
It's bad enough when an aircraft goes by and the TV signal throbs
its little heart out.  In this case, the cargo itself might need
shielding.

     I haven't yet seen any mention of the quite serious environmental
factors.  I'm not talking about keeping cute bushy-tailed rats from
being run over; I refer to the various manifestations of Murphy's Law,
as expressed by snow (several feet), ice (thick), hail (heavy), rain
(lots), heat (140 F), wind (cross, 50 mph plus), and other such uglies
of the nasty real world.  Don't forget the proverbial large ungulate
encountered in rural areas.

     Now, it seems that the simplest way to solve these problems here
is to extend the maglev ditch into an aluminum tube.  However, I think
at this point you have something considerably more expensive than the
two-steel-rail bed.  Boring view, too.  Foo.

        -------

     Randomness: railroads could be considered one of the first packet
switching systems!  Also, what's so bad about air transport?  There
have been some serious proposals to revive lighter-than-air craft, on
really huge scales.  Dunno what they'd do about weather, though, other
than run from it.

--Ken

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 10/15/80 10:49:26 Re: glass eaters

     In response to ZEMON's fantasy about producing glass or tin can
eating beasts of burden using genetic engineering; I say good luck!
I say fine to plans of using genetic engineering to produce beasts
that eat garbage, but not glass. The food source has to be such that
it contains a viable source of chemical energy.  React the goo with
something from the environment and produce a chemical system that
has a global configuration that has a lower energy potential.
     I suppose that it is possible to eat tin cans.  The tin can be
oxidized to release energy.  If the beasty could only figure out how
to speed up the normal oxidation process.  Maybe a catalyst(enzyme)?
But glass I do not believe.  If anyone can figure out the reaction
that glass will undergo that makes this statement false, I would
like to hear about it.

        Greg

P.S.  The idea of having huge beasties that can run at forty with
      fifty people on its back and that eats SOME sort of waste is
      still an interesting proposal!

------------------------------

Date: 16 OCT 1980 1201-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: stretchable belts

  In THE CITY AND THE STARS Clarke tosses off a remark about
apparently solid moving belts which move faster in the middle than
at either the edges or the ends, but this is more to convey (sorry)
a sense of how far technology has advanced than to offer a serious
current idea.
  The problem with duplicating a muscle cell is the microstructure
involved: each individual molecule flexes to pull itself up past
its neighbors.

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 10/17/80 01:00:35 Re: The Roads Must Roll

It just occurred to me that if we were to design a self repairing,
solar powered road with variable speeds, and so forth, we would end
up with a river!

And for one way travel, rivers are quite economical. . . . Ergo,

                       "The Roads Must Flow"

     Jack

------------------------------

ISRAEL@MIT-AI 10/13/80 21:47:06 Re: Prisoner query

A PBS affiliate here in Maryland has started broadcasting episodes of
"The Prisoner".  They broadcast two episodes a week on Saturday 11-12
and 12-1 at night (actually since its PBS without commercials its
11-11:50 and 11:50 to 12:40).  Up until its been mentioned on SFL I'd
never even heard of the show (is that Lauren I hear shuddering out
there?) and I'd like to know a little bit more about it.  When did it
run and for how long?  Is there an episode guide someone is willing to
type in? (Lauren?)  So far I've watched four episodes which is all that
they've broadcast.  The episodes are as follows (by subject, not title)
1) Arrival at the Village, 2) Big Ben (attempted escape to England),
3) Dream Manipulation, and 4) Election (he ran for the #2 postion).
Are they broadcasting them in chronological order?  So far in each of
the different episodes there has been a different no. 2.  According
to the fourth episode that I saw, No. 2 is elected for a twelve month
period.  What is going on with that?
- Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 1980 10:38 PDT
From: Karlton at PARC-MAXC
Subject: More Cosmos

I have seen episodes 2 and 3 of Cosmos now and I have found the shows
to be interesting.

Yes, in episode 2 almost all of the information was old to me and was
presented at a slow pace, but it allowed me to @i(think) about what
was being said. I was able to review a lot of things I once knew more
about. If you watched the show with the expectation of being able to
sit back and be dazzled you would have been disappointed, I took it
as an opportunity to once again drag myself out of the sloppy habit
of only focusing on that narrow part of life that is immediately
affecting me.

I have always felt a little guilty about my cursory knowledge of
science history.  Episode 3, addressed a piece of it, and I enjoyed
it. I learned that Kepler was willing to trust Tycho Brahe's obser-
vations (made without the aid of a telescope) enough to conclude
that planets are in elliptical orbit, not circular.  The difference
in observed vs. predicted sky positions was 8'.  That took real
courage.

PK 

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 09:45:27-PDT
From: sdcsvax!davidson at Berkeley
Subject: Characteristics we share with animals

I don't know about Mike Peeler's desert lizards, but homosexual
behavior in natural, uncrowded situations is normal in Dolphins,
many Primates, cows and other species.  Various explanations have
been suggested by Sociobiologists for this behavior. Some of these
explanations can be found in Edward O. Wilson's book Sociobiology,
but take his arguments with a grain of salt.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1980 18:42 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Dolphin Intelligence

Sorry to take so long to reply, but there were many interesting things
said, and I have had no time until today to think and reply.

I don't really consider us to live in a 2-d world, but a 3-d one, and
not just because of the airplane. Have you ever climbed a mountain?
Do you imagine that our ancestors never did?  Our supposed precursors
lived in trees, which is every bit a three dimensional environment as
is water.

Actually, the dolphin's necessary specializations of perception
(sonar and hearing) probably correspond fairly well to ours
(visual acuity). My point was that I agree with Hofstadter that
intelligence is probably the manifestation of the complexity of
organization found in our brains. The form of that intelligence
is another matter, as he adroitly points out in the fable about
Aunt Hillary.  Surely tool-building is a manifestation of intel-
ligence, not a pre-cursor to it.  Perhaps tool-building was our
ancestors method for arriving at geometrical intuition, but might
not there be other ways?  For example, geometry could easily arise
from the investigation by smart dolphins of the propagation of
sound. I do not think that our formal mathematics 'depends heavily'
on geometric intuition, at least not in the sense I made of the
term.  (My roommate points out that I was incorrect in using the
term 'formal mathematics', but should rather have used the term
'formal lanquage theory'.) In fact, much study has gone into making
mathematics as independent of 'geometric intuition' as possible.
This is not to say that geometric intuition is not worthwhile,
but rather that the mathematics should, as much as is possible,
be independent of the intuition which allowed the mathematician
to discover it.

With regards to formal language theory (I hereby correct my
terminology), I meant only to say that it is most likely to be
one subject that any communicating species is likely to get into
sooner or later, independently of its particular specialization
of intelligence since it is merely the embodiment of the process
of reasoning that we call intelligence.

The key thing is that ability to abstract and generalize, and
to transmute such ideas into other forms, whether they be tools
or dolphin communications or what.  Proof already exists that
chimpanzees have this ability to a limited extent, and Lilly's
studies prove (to me at least) that dolphins are similarly capable.
I suspect that sound-oriented creatures such as dolphins are more
likely to have a verbal tradition much beyond ours.  Perhaps that
is a hindrance (it really helps to be able to go to a library for a
book some times!), but perhaps not.  Perhaps dolphins have evolved
(culturally and/or physically) acute memories and mental reasoning
abilities.  This has not been studied much as yet.

Even if the being we are trying to understand is not itself a
particularly bright specimen, if the species as a whole has the
kind of abilities we call intelligence, then it should be possible
to communicate in some reasoning manner.  I am really making a
definition of intelligence here, by saying that intelligence
involves the creation of new perceptions through the use of
reasoning.  I interpret 'formal language theory' as the
formalization of this reasoning process.

I think the above comments apply as well to philosophic reasoning,
not just mathematical reasoning. For that matter, 'formal language
theory' applies just as well to the study of philosophy, which
places a heavy emphasis on logical reasoning.  I would expect a
highly intelligent animal whose perceptions are largely verbal
to be very much into philosophy.

        --      Larry   --

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 at 1729-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STAR WARS-- La Triviata ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now that he's had such wide exposure as the warlord in SHOGUN,
it's interesting to speculate what SW might have been like if
20th Century Fox hadn't vetoed Lucas desire to have Mifune in
the Obi-Wan role.

TESB Problem: how to get the right type of fur for the miniature
Tauntaun, since any that was too long or too thick would look
coarse and unrealistic.  Solution: (Kolling will hate this)
tanned baby calf leather, as they have very fine and small-
napped hair.

The "Luke" role WAS indeed originally intended to be a girl, and
it was her brother that she was trying to rescue.  (It says so in
a recent kiddie book on "The Making of Star Wars".)  This sounds
like the story (in THE PRINCESS BOOK [?]) about the handsome prince
who was captured by the wicked sorcerer, with the intrepid princess
promised his hand if she'd go rescue him, which she does, but he's
such a ninny that she runs off with the wicked sorcerer instead.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 1980 at 0404-CDT
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: STAR WARS and DRUNKS

I caught an amusing PSA (public service announcement) on the tube
this morning.  It started off with some cuts from the Star Wars
cantina sequence.  It then switched to some (well integrated)
new footage, showing one bizarre alien helping another who is
obviously smashed.  We then see a ship (the M. Falcon?) speeding
off. 

The punchline?  "Real friends don't let their buddies drive when 
                 they are drunk."

Of course.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 OCT 1980 0500-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #109
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 19 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
Original SF Telezine, What Happened at a Con - Kudos for Noreascon II,
      SF Books - Upcoming from ACE & Queries & Miltary Sexuality
 & Plot/Title Responses, SF TV - Prisoner, What is SF? - Willy Wonka
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     13 October 1980 0451-edt
From:     Mednieks.SIPBADMIN at MIT-Multics
Subject:  I am in Austria

     I thank the many people who contributed to the first issue of
the SF-L telezine. I also must apologize for the slow turnaround
in editing contibutions to the second issue as I am in Austria and
cannot TYMNET to the U.S. very frequently.

     I expect the second issue to be ready in about a month.
Contributions for this and future issues are still welcome and
encouraged.

                                                  cheers
                                                  --zig

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 at 1729-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ KUDOS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LOCUS says: "Noreascon, without a doubt, was the best
             organized [SF] convention ever held".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ UPCOMING FROM ACE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Their early-1981 list looks real promising:
   Feb.  R.A. Heinlein: EXPANDED UNIVERSE
         H. Beam Piper: FEDERATION
   March Gordon Dickson: THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA
         Lynn Abbey: THE GUARDIANS
   April Niven & Barnes: THE DREAM PARK BUILDERS.

------------------------------

Date: 18 October 1980 2140-EDT (Saturday)
From: Mark.Sherman at CMU-10A
Subject:  Request for novel title/author

Does anyone remember the title/author of a novel where the sole plot
is cloning people (who are sentient) for replacement parts?  I know
there are lots of novels which have this situation, but I'm trying to
find the story where the discovery of this fact is the book's climax
(like cannibalism in the movie Soylent Green).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1980 (Wednesday) 2348-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: "Number of the Beast" query

I am interested in comments concerning the allusions at the end
of "The Number of the Beast".  I have read same, and don't really
recommend it much, but since I started SF with RAH I felt obliged
to get it.  At the end he has several chapters which consist of
allusions to various other fictional works.  I can get most of
them, but was interested in some of them I missed:

1)  "Both Heinleins." p492
2)  "Ginnie and Winnie and Minnie... and Holly and Poddy and
     Pink"  Winnie -> "I Will Fear No Evil", Minnie -> "Time
     Enough for Love", Poddy -> "Podkayne of Mars".  Holly ->
     "{some short story about "the creature from earth", 
     Holly lives on Luna}", that leaves Ginnie who is "a witch", 
     and I ASSUME Pink is "Persistence of Vision", but RAH says
     "Fuzzy {Pink?} is a computer artist?" p504
3)   "Dr. Bone" p 504
4)   "Jerry and Ben are covering it for their various journals...
      but must clear it through Charles" {Who is Charles?} p506
5)   "Andre. Kat Moore. Fritz. Cliff. The Gordfather..." p507
6)   "Bishop Berkeley" p508
7)   "'King' John and 'Queen' Penelope" p509
8)   "Professor Wogglebug" p510
9)   "Mellrooney! The worst troublemaker in all the worlds."

I am not a CON person, and have been told that it is required to
get a good number of them. Oh well, if you know them, send to me
and I'll compile for people interested.

             -Dave

P.S. "The Barbie Murders", anthology, J. Varley, is REAL good!

------------------------------

KWH@MIT-AI 10/17/80 18:05:14 Re: Starship Troopers

     In Starship Troopers, the primary mention of sex is the "Wow,
girls are great" (which I won't dispute), but in a book written for
juveniles, you don't expect homosexuality (or any sexuality) to be
blatantly portrayed.  Steven Disch, I think made a swipe at homosexual
symbolism in Starship Troopers, but his arguments seem weak (but I
read them paraphrased by Spider Robinson, in a defense of Heinlein.)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 1980 (Thursday) 1239-EST
From: RUBENSTEIN at HARV-10
Subject: Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS

There was quite a bit of sex (well, sexual relations) in this novel,
mostly of a fairly mundane sort.  For instance, the boot camp cadets
going into town after not seeing a woman for many weeks, and the
honor of going forward of the bulkhead seperating the all male army
from the all female navy.  Not the most imaginative or unusual part
of the novel.

------------------------------

Date: 16 OCT 1980 1149-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: military sexuality

  In THE FOREVER WAR, the military becomes primarily gay (along with
the rest of society) only in the last full section (there's a short
epilogue after the last battle episode).  However, the expeditionary
force is still made up of similar numbers of men and women.
  In STARSHIP TROOPERS the hero is incredibly naive; reading it from
today's perspective, rather than from the assumptions which more
strait-laced minds would have made, it's perfectly possible to believe
that he's still a virgin at the end of the story.  The military is
co-ed but most of the women in the front lines are pilots; there is
no suggestion that any of the infantry/marines are women either here
or in SPACE CADET (though the latter was more obviously written for
pre-pubescent males; the attitude and perspective are close to those
of his other juveniles (THE STAR BEAST, FARMER IN THE SKY, STARMAN'S
SON, THE ROLLING STONES, etc.) In fact, most of Heinlein's characters
\aren't/ sexual in books written before 1960; the sexiest thing about
THE DOOR INTO SUMMER was Kelly Freas' cover painting for the seriali-
zation (in F&SF, of course; Kay Tarrant wouldn't have allowed even an
artfully veiled nude on the cover of ANALOG).
  I'd be surprised at Dickson's leaving women out of the Dorsai, were
it not in line with his usual relegation of women to supporting roles.
The only story of his I can think of in which a woman is a leader is
the one recently published in LOST DORSAI, describing the defense of
the Dorsai homeworld against Dow delCastries under the leadership of
Amanda Morgan.
  Poul Anderson's stories usually show women taking a role in
guerilla warfare; he very rarely brings the regular army onstage
but from various remarks I would guess that it is all male (though,
unlike Heinlein's army, it is obvious that Anderson's soldiers head
for the red light district (rather than a chaste social center) when
on leave.
  Leigh Brackett, in PEOPLE OF THE TALISMAN, has a black-helmed
warlord who turns out to be female leading a barbarian horde
against the city where she was born; her reasons are a strong
feminist statement even today (PotT came out in 1965).
  Chandler's federated space navy seems to have women on most of its
ships, although they are almost always "purser" or "supply steward"
(i.e., maid or cook); his hero, Grimes, usually gets as much as he
wants (especially in the more recent books) but Chandler never really
resolves the question of the tension caused in a small ship by having
a small fraction of the crew female and putting out (under the circum-
stances, that vulgarity is the best description) for select members of
the male crew.  (In recent books any trouble has been the fault of a
sluttish woman or a generally slovenly crew; perhaps the crews on the
larger or more tightly run ships mostly abstain?  Chandler will be
GoH at Chicon IV (1982 Worldcon); must remember to ask him if I get
a chance.)  After getting settled in the Rim Grimes marries a former
Federation spy who subsequently travels with him, but what the Rim
has hardly counts as an organized military.  Chandler may be getting
his consciousness raised; in his latest book [not a spoiler!] a woman
is a sky marshall who takes command of Grimes' ship for the federation
after G has "turned pirate" and been caught.

------------------------------

Date: 18 OCT 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Plot/Title Request about a Doctor and his fuzzy

Most agreed that:

   The book about the star-travelling doctor and fuzzy companion
   is STAR SURGEON by Nourse.  The doctor is from a race which has
   empathy with a small fuzzy creature, and through this empathy, can
   (by some psionic phenomenon) influence the feelings of others. Its
   a good book, centering on this doctor (who is an alien) trying to
   break into the Terran monopoly on medical care.  -- <KWH at MIT-AI>

   The story is STAR SURGEON; like much of the medical SF recently
   available, it's by Alan Nourse.  I first came across the book
   around age 11, and recall very much enjoying it then; like most
   of Nourse's novels, it's usually filed as a juvenile in libraries
   that have a separate section for kids, but I flipped through it
   recently and was still entertained.     --  Chip <HITCHCOCK at CCA>

   It's juvenile (no sex or drugs or rock or roll) but pretty good,
   especially for its treatment of predjudice (the good doctor is a
   furry humanoid. . .)             --  Jack Palevich <TANG at MIT-AI>

   I seem to remember liking it when I read it back in junior high. He
   is a M.D., and most of his stories have a medical orientation, with
   a great deal of realism.                         -- <HGA at MIT-MC>


Others mentioned similar stories:

   Paul Hilfinger's lost story was, I believe, entitled "Zozzle", and
   the creatures were similarly named.  It was a short story in Analog
   during the 60's.  Pleasant, and evidently memorable.
                                 -- Mike Urban <Mike at UCLA-SECURITY>

   The 'migrant doctor with companion critter' I believe is "The
   Mutant Weapon" by Murry Leinster. I have it in my collection as an
   Ace double book (two tacky SF stories for the price of one).  The
   critter was a Tormal named Murgatroyd.  Tormal's (according to the
   author) have the ability to create human antibodies against almost
   any offending virus. As you can guess, this is a Bio-warfare type
   story.                                  --  Brian <LLOYD at MIT-AI>



   My thanks to those who responded to my plot identification request.
   The book was "Star Surgeon" by Alan E. Nourse (at least, this seems
   in accord with my flaky memory; I haven't managed to scrounge up a
   copy of the book to make absolutely sure.)
                                       --  <Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A>

   [ Thanx also to Drew <DPowles at BBN-UNIX>, Dan <Tappan at BBNG>,
     and Tom Spencer <CSD.Spencer at SU-SCORE> who also identified
     the story as Nourse's Star Surgeon.  -- RDD ]

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 10/18/80 13:42:56 Re: Who is Number 6?

     To answer some questions on "The Prisoner"-

     This rather unique 17 episode series was first shown on CBS
as a summer replacement series in June of 1968 (and rerun again
the next summer.) It has undergone a real revival in the past
coupla years thanks to stations like your PBS affiliates picking
up on the syndication rights.
     The series was conceived, created, pushed into being by
Patrick McGoohan, who also wrote a fair share of the episodes.
It was filmed at the resort hotel (!) of Portmeirion in Wales.

     The four episodes Israel saw (by title - "Arrival", "The
Chimes of Big Ben", "A, B, & C", and "Free for All") are indeed
the first four episodes.  In "Free For All", McGoohan is indeed
elected to the post of Number 2, but holds the job just long
enough for those thugs behind the scenes to rough him up and put
him back in his place. In the next episode ("The Schizoid Man")
McGoohan is once again just Number 6, with yet another Number 2
to do battle against.
    Many parts of the puzzle will be wrapped up in the final
episode - a two parter which reveals, among other things, who
the mysterious Number 1 really is...

           But that would be telling, wouldn't it?

The Prisoner is one of, if not the finest examples of fantasy
Metaphor ever to make it to television.

     Larry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 2313-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>

    In case  anybody counts  up the  votes on  "Willie Wonka  and  the
Chocolate Factory"  as science  fiction,  I vote  no.  The  movie  was
rather juvenile, but I enjoyed it anyway.  I have an excuse.   ("Sure,
buddy, sure!")  I read "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" when I  was
little, and the movie was a  nostalgic experience.  I liked that  book
long before it ever occurred to me that most of the books I liked were
science fiction or fantasy, and most I disliked were not.  To this day
I cannot put down  in twenty-five words or  less what I think  defines
science fiction, but I can surely  tell you whether I would apply  the
label to a book I have read  or a movie I have seen.  Neither  "Willie
Wonka" nor "Charlie" fit my notion of science fiction.

    Rather than succumb to the  temptation to expound at great  length
upon the true nature of science fiction, I shall relinquish the torch.
I have at least a little sense -- of mercy, that is!

Mike Peeler

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 OCT 1980 0336-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #110
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 20 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:             Games Request,
 SF Books - Darkover & Dreamsnake & TNotB Trivia & Military Sexuality,
  Alien Intelligence - Sport & Communication, Future - Transportation
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1980 1508-PDT
From: MIKE at RAND-AI
Subject: gaming request

Folks,

     I am thinking about writing an intelligent rule agent to play a
computer-based conflict simulation game.  The problem is to find an
appropriate game to use as a base. There does not appear to be an
appropriate list for this question, so I have chosen SF-Lovers due
to the high number of gamesters.

Criteria

   not too complicated  (thus the Peter Langston Empire is out)
   source available     (undoubtedly modifications will be necessary)
   somewhat interesting (subjective, alas)

Example

   Dec 10-20 Empire.  It is a reasonably simple game which can be
   played in several hours.  It consists of one user playing against
   the computer, thus it is excellent for multiple runs to evaluate
   the effectiveness of a rule agent.  Its major deficiency is the
   lack of any source to the program (so far as I can tell).

     Thus I would appreciate suggestions or advice from the community
at large and, of course, please pass this message along to anyone who
might be able to help.

        Thanks,

                Michael Wahrman

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 10/16/80 22:35:58

     By the way, what is this Darkover series about?

                Jack Palevich

------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 10/19/80 23:42:39 Re: Doctors + companion creatures

I'm reminded by this subject of Vonda McIntyre's "Dreamsnake", in
which itinerant doctors employ several snakes in their treatments.
One of the snakes (the Dreamsnake) induces euphoria in terminally
ill patients, to ease their pain. Although the plot in this book
was rather predictable, the characterizations were really excellent.
        -leor

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1980 1434-EDT
From: ERIC at MIT-XX
Subject: Heinlein esoterica

Ginnie is Virginia Heinlein, Robert's wife. Same answer for "the
two Heinleins".  Robert has much unpublished material stored away
in his file cabinets, and his last N books have been published
largely through the efforts of Virginia. By the way, his brother
Rex was a "mustanger" in the Army...he entered as a private, and
exited as general...VERY difficult. His brothers sword is the
"Lady Vivamus" of Glory Road. I have been privleged to be a house
guest at their Santa Cruz home, most of which they designed. Very
cultured and charming people. Broadminded.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1980 1919-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Heinlein and sex.

In reference to RAH's works I must point out that RAH is reputed to
have once said that juvenile fiction should be written just the same
as regular adult fiction except that you should remove all the sex. I
suspect that is the reason why there is no sex in Starship Troopers.
Considering some of the junk I've seen that had nothing in it but
sex, maybe that would be a good idea for many writers to follow in
their regular works.  Of course it would make some books an awful
lot shorter.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1980 0018-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Gay animals

    Those homosexual  desert  lizards  are not  mine!   I  was  merely
reporting  hearsay.   At  the  time,  it  was  the  only  instance  of
homosexuality in  nature I  had  ever heard  of.  Since  then  several
fellow SF lovers have reported other instances.

    I must admit that "homosexuality arises in animals only after they
have heavily overpopulated  their environment"  was an  overstatement.
However, I  have read  somewhere of  an experiment  on the  effect  of
crowding on laboratory rats.  I was  led to believe that lab rats  are
not normally  homosexual  even  without sexual  mix,  but  that  under
crowded conditions they showed all kinds of abnormal behavior (for lab
rats), including homosexuality.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1980 18:51:13-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: Dolphin Communication

On the discussion of dolphin communication, let me throw in
something I picked up in a Linguistics class.  When dolphins are
communication with each other, they face one another.  The one
"speaking" sends his/her sonar message, and the "listner" (insert
italics here) sends single pulses to the speaker (end italics).
There has been much speculation as to why the listener sends these
signals to the speaker, ranging from a "I'm listening" idea to the
following fascinating theory: with the sonar waves, it is possible
for the listener to "see" (more italics) the internal organs of the
speaker (end italics).  Under this theory, there could be the equi-
valent of human facial expressions and/or hand motions performed by
voluntary muscle control by the speaker. Now isn't THAT an interesting
idea? If true, maybe that's why we can't understand what's going on;
we could be only getting one part of the communication process...

                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 18 October 1980 2006-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: moving belts

Dolata's mention of metal plates overlapping occurs at the LA
airport.  A flat version occurs in Pittsburgh.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1980 1225-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Maglev transport (in reply to KLH)

The train needn't have any great amount of equipment for getting
under way again should it stop between stations.  All it needs is
some sort of transmitting equipment (it could even use telegraph
through the rails) so it can report the problem, and a special
self-powered engine could be dispatched to get it going again.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1980 1215-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: MagLev Transport

I didn't keep a copy, so can't redistribute it to SFL, but a message
to the RAILROAD list yesterday (or Thursday?) dealt extensively with
the current Japanese efforts with MagLev trains.  They are talking
about a 240 mph MagLev train using today's technology (if they can
get the "track" land away from the loudly-protesting farmers).

Roger, maybe you can find a copy of yesterday's message sent via
RAILROAD at MIT-MC?  I don't know if anyone maintains an archive
of RR or not.  [ The article follows below.  --  RDD ]

--Rich

               ----------------------------------------

      Noiseless 240 MPH Magnetic Train Possible by 1990 in Japan
             By BRYAN BRUMLEY     Associated Press Writer

    TOKYO (AP) - The Japanese, who have been riding the 125-mile-an-
hour "Bullet Train" since 1964, can look forward to riding one in the
next decade that goes almost twice as fast - virtually without a sound
or vibration. It will float on a magnetic cushion.
    Japanese engineers began designing the magnetic train two years
before the Bullet Train was inaugurated and a prototype designed by
the Japan National Railways (JNR) is to undergo a new phase of tests
in December.
    The prototype of a slower model, designed for urban transit, is
being tested by Japan Air Lines, at Higashi Ogijima, a man-made island
on Tokyo Bay. The sleek eight-passenger high speed surface transport
(HSST), called a "wingless airplane" by its creators, makes a sound
not unlike "hsst" as it travels at speeds up to 186 mph.
    "The most important factor is the ability of the (JNR) train to
carry large numbers of people quickly, with very little noise," says
Yoshiro Kyotani, director of technical development for the National
Railways.
    Kyotani predicts that magnetic levitation vehicles (Maglevs) could
be shuttling passengers at 240 mph between major Japanese cities by
the early 1990s to supplement the Shinkansen (Bullet Train), which
has carried more than 1.5 billion passengers in 16 years.
    Last December, a Maglev set a new speed record for trains, 320
mph.  The new prototype is designed to carry passengers and move
along a more efficient track.
    Further development of either the National Railways or the Japan
Air Lines systems will require government money. The railway, con-
trolled by the Transport Ministry, is virtually assured funding, but
the airline must compete with another design developed five years ago
by the Japan Locomotive Association.
    "The JNR system is already established," says Jiro Hanyu of the
ministry's urban division. "The most important thing now is to reduce
the cost," he said, estimating that it would take more than $1 billion
to build a line between Tokyo and Osaka, Japan's second largest city
180 miles to the west.
    "If it is developed, it will be used for long distance transport.
The other two are designed for urban transit, especially between the
city and the airport," Hanyu said.
    Japan, 75 percent dependent on imported oil for its energy supply
and consisting of a series of narrow mountainous islands in which
only 20 percent of the land can be farmed or inhabited, already relies
heavily on rail transport. Proponents of the magnetic train argue that
it is more land and fuel efficient than other means of transportation.
    "It would take less land, for example, than a highway or airport,"
says Kyotani.
    Airline officials say construction of a Maglev line between
Tokyo and Narita International Airport 40 miles away could cut
transportation time from the current 90 minutes to 15 minutes.
They say the main problem is neither the money nor technology,
but land.
    "The main obstacle in building the system is securing the right
of way," says Akira Hayashi, general manager of the airline project.
    Construction of the airport and related facilities has been
plagued for years by opposition, some of it violent, from farmers
and anti-government militant groups protesting the taking of land.
    Irate citizen groups also threaten to sidetrack a prposed
expansion of the Bullet Train, on grounds that existing lines
exceed lawful limits on noise.
    Other nations are moving ahead with high-speed trains.  France
plans to open its very-high-speed, 260-mile Paris-Lyon route next
October.  The French claim it will be the world's fastest train,
with a top speed of 156 mph, but it will ride conventional rails
rather than a magnetic cushion.
    To achieve high speeds, the JNR design employs a linear
synchronous motor in which a superconductor aboard the train is
cooled to 269 degrees below zero centigrade using liquid helium.
    The train is lifted by repulsing forces between the magnets
on the train and others in a slot-shaped track.  Forward motion is
achieved by passing electricity through coils in the track ahead of
the train, creating an attractive force for a second bank of magnets
on the vehicle.
    Kyotani claims the super-conductivity and the electrification of
the magnets in the track make his system faster and more efficient
than other designs developed in Japan or elsewhere.
    The airline's HSST system employs a simpler linear induction
motor, in which current passes only through magnets on the train,
inducing an attractive and propulsive magnetic force on a reactive
rail on the track. The HSST is lifted by attractive forces between
magnets on arms which extend from the train and tuck under magnets
on the underside of the monorail-type track.
    
------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1980 1121-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: biological transportation techniques

I was thinking about ZEMON@MIT-MC's concept for genetically engineered
transportation critters such as the runner-beast- built-for-50. It was
mentioned that with such a system there would be no need for "big,
smelly factories in order to make more". Instead, I presume, we would
have big, smelly runner-beasts to make more ("whats the matter, you
never saw a runner-bus in love?").

Q: Where does a 50 seat runner-bus nest?
A: Anywhere it wants!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 OCT 1980 0313-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #111
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 21 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:
                        SF Music - Lunar Pops,
 SF Books - Darkover & Military Sexuality, What is SF? - Budrys View,
         Alien Intelligence - Sport, Future - Transportation
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 October 1980  13:13-EDT (Monday)
From: Andrew G. Malis <MALIS at BBNE>
Subject: New John Williams & Boston Pops album

John Williams and the Boston Pops have a new album out, "Pops in
Space" (Phillips 9500 921).  The album is the Pops' first with
Williams as conductor and is Phillips' first digital recording.
The album contains selections from "Star Wars" (the title music
and "Leia's Theme"), "The Empire Strikes Back" ("The Asteroid
Field", "Yoda's Theme", and the "Imperial March"), the March and
Love Theme from "Superman", and a suite from "Close Encounters",
which includes new music for the re-edited version of the film.
The Boston Globe gives the album an excellent review.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 20 OCT 1980 1349-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Darkover

  Boy, are you going to get answers to \this/ query! (Darkover tends
to arouse very strong opinions).
  The Darkover stories comprise about a dozen novels and a few
shorts by Marion Zimmer Bradley, plus a lot of (fortunately) mostly
unobtainable fan fiction. Darkover is a harsh world with a few cities
and a basically feudal/manorial social structure complicated by the
presence of psionic faculties ("laran") in most of the aristocracy
and many of the commoners.  (Bastardy is common not much thought
of, especially since there are two Saturnalia-like festivals, at
midsummer and midwinter, so the abilities get well spread but are
frequently unrecognized or untrained.)  Much of the tension of the
stories comes from the fact that laran and sexual energy derive
their power from the same inner resources; this means that use of
laran is bound up with a variety of social codes and patterns of
behavior --- Darkovans are a long way from Campbell's wise psionic
supermen.
   The driving force in most of the plots is the conflict between
Darkovans (who, Bradley has decided, were shipwrecked from a Terran
colonial vessel some 2000 years before most of the stories and
crossbred intermittently with the elusive natives) and the Terrans
who have established a foothold on Darkover; frequently a Terran is
called upon to bridge the gap of bilateral ignorance and misunder-
standing. There are also tensions within Darkovan society, which is
visibly evolving; the mysticism and strict codes surrounding laran
are gradually disintegrating and the bloodlines of several of the
aristocratic families are thinning.  There is also a wild card:
the comii'letziya ("Free Companions" (feminine form), vulgarly
called Amazons), who are self-sustaining feminists.  A large
number of readers of uncertain stability find this world
attractive (especially for this last feature) and do their
best to live in it.
   Bradley puts a great deal of herself into all of the books,
and her improvement over the 20+ years she's been writing them
is visible. Several of the later ones (HERITAGE OF HASTUR, THE
FORBIDDEN TOWER, THE SHATTERED CHAIN, TWO TO CONQUER) are well
worth reading.

------------------------------

Date: 20 OCT 1980 1306-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: women in STARSHIP TROOPERS

   The navy in ST was a \long/ way from being all female! (evidence:
Sky Marshals must have risen through both the army and the navy; the
MI sergeant, instead of reaming out his men, tells them that in the
navy they'd look good ("...it being an article of faith that navy
men never washed below the neck...."); etc.)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1980 0653-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: "What is SF?" 

Probably little remains to be said on this topic, but since it came up
recently with regard to Willie Wonka, and since I just recently read
Varley's collection "The Persistence of Vision", I figure I'll mention
that I think the opening two paragraphs of Budrys's introduction to
that book summarize the matter pretty well.  Among other things, he
distinguishes between "SF" and "science fiction".

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1980 0418-PDT
From: Admin.Kanef at SU-SCORE (Bob Kanefsky)
Subject: Homosexual laboratory rats

Why assume that homosexuality is an abnormal reaction to overcrowding,
Mike? It makes more sense to think of it as a normal response to over-
crowding, just as heterosexuality is a normal response to having room
to expand the population.

About those desert lizards -- they wouldn't be of the species commonly
known as "horny toads", would they?  I used to play with the little
buggers when I was growing up in Arizona.  You don't suppose....

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 10/20/80 17:15:12 Re: MagLev trains

$1 billion just for 180 miles?  I know this includes R&D and the
trains themselves, but really...

Maglev trains can certainly be made to operate more efficiently
than conventional iron horses, but I doubt you're going to get
a cheaper roadbed.  You still need right-of-way (harder to get
nowadays), suitable drainage, sufficient support, etc; a monorail
is a lot better than a ditch from the viewpoint of reliability and
safety. (I assume you don't want a canal network after each rain).

Can the same principles be applied to current roads?  For example,
suppose the next time your local street was re-paved, they included
a buried layer of aluminum foil.  Would that allow car-sized maglev
vehicles?  What about maglev "bikes" such that the two/three wheels
(for "off-road" pedalling) fold flat, like pancakes skimming over
the road?  Can a microcomputer hold the vehicle on a steady course
over a flat metal bed (compensating for wind, etc)?  I assume that
if acceleration/deceleration is possible in any direction, that
provides a sufficient "grip"... one of the long-standing problems
of hovercraft.

But then, what do I know about magic?

--Ken

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 0601-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Future transportation

Bicycles aren't the transportation of the future because two classes
of people, who collectively probably constitute the majority of the
population, won't use bicycles.  Most people won't use them because
they're too much work. If there are no alternatives, obviously, they
might be used, but most people would pay much more than they are now
paying to keep their covered boxes.  The other group is the people
who don't want to be bothered with the process of transportation,
and would rather read or sleep during commuting trips. I'm in both
categories.
     Rolling roads aren't the transportation of the future
because the current transportation infrastructure would have to
be scrapped, and that just won't happen.  It will simply be too
expensive, no matter how cheap the operating costs are likely to
be, and there are no groups in sight that would have an interest
in pushing for it.
     Assume that petroleum-based energy will level off at about
$2.50/gallon (1980 $s) as a result of the heavy government-based
investment in fuel sources.  Also assume that electricity for
running private vehicles will be substantially cheaper than this
on a per-mile basis.  What will the private cars of the next 25
years look like?  Lighter?  Probably.  More electric?  I don't
know -- how's new battery technology progressing?  What else?
Lower speed limits are likely also, since the lighter boxes will
lead to an increase in serious injury rates at current speeds.
Urban rush hours are likely to get worse, even with increased
mass transportation, so we will be spending more time on the
road.  As a result, more creature comforts are likely in the
small light cars (see the revolution in "auto sound".)  How
else can luxury be improved?
     Does anyone really think that something other than automobiles
will be an important mode of transportation before then end of the
century?  If so, I would love to know how we are going to get there
from here.  If there are any surprises in store for us, I would bet
that they result from new uses of micros.  How come nobody has
suggested any?  (I can't think of any either, but certainly there
are some hardware types who can work through present applications
to future ones.  Aren't there??)
     Bicycles and rolling roads are fun to speculate on, but the
transition to the point where they are serious possibilities eludes
me.
        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1980 1056-PDT
From: Amy Newell (through Will Martin at ROUNDS at Office-3)
Subject: Bicycles

I like bicycles as much as the next person, but despite the fact  that
they are good transport for persons and objects in certain situations,
there are problems none of you have mentioned.

1.  Most buildings, at least here  in St.Louis, have no provision  for
storage - they  do not allow  bikes in  the lobby of  our office,  let
alone on  the elevators  or in  the offices  themselves.  The  parking
garages won't take  them either,  as they are  too hard  to watch.   I
don't know about any other cities, but downtown SL is not a good place
to leave your ten-speed chained to a parking meter.

2.  Now you guys may  not perspire, but I find  that riding a bike  at
any speed for any distance  leads to a severe case  of BO, not to  put
too fine  a  point  on  things.  Here  again,  most  offices  have  no
provisions for showers and such, and  if you've ever tried to get  GSA
to replace a light bulb, you know the chances of getting them.

3.  If you have any distance to cover (work to home for me is app.  15
miles)  the  time  factor  also  gains  importance.   For  two-wheeled
transport to  be  effective, almost  all  American cities  would  need
drastic redesign.  While  bikes were  fine in  my home  town of  about
1,000, and my college town of about 16,000, in St.Louis, it's just not
workable.

4.  While we  did grocery shop  and take things  to the laundromat  on
bikes, it wasn't what you would call a pleasant experience.  Now, part
of that was because we procrastinated  heavily and ended up taking  30
to 40 pounds of stuff to wash at once - not an easy thing to  balance,
but such loads do have to be handled and I don't know an effective way
to do it.

5.  Most of  us would retain  cars for distance  journeys anyway.   It
takes me at least twice  as long to get to  my mothers in Iowa on  the
bus as driving.  To get there on a train , you go to Chicago, then  to
Ottumwa, where you still have to be  picked up and driven 30 miles  to
hit goal.  Air transport would involve 20 miles to the airport for  me
and about 120 miles round trip for someone to pick me up and the  same
distances in reverse.

These are just  the few things  I came up  with in about  a 10  minute
span, and I'm sure there are many more and also solutions that are  so
obvious I'm overlooking them, but they are enough to make me feel that
a bicycle is just not practical for most of us.

--Amy Newell

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 10/16/80 02:40:38
Re: Pions vs. Peons / Bicycles - are they safe?

Yes, I was aware that pions were pi-mesons.  I was just making a
subtle comment on Laura's (I think that was her name) misspelling
of peon (I'll never try subtlety again).

Yes, biking can be dangerous.  Drivers of automobiles have been known
to inflict extreme bodily damage upon bicycle riders.  I, however,
have discovered several things to extend a bicycle rider's
life-expectency;

   1) Wear a helmet.  It not only protects your grey matter, but it
      seems to have a positive effect on drivers' responses.

   2) If the road is narrow and there is insufficient room for an auto
      to pass, ride in the MIDDLE of the road.  Even stupid drivers
      realize that they can't safely pass.

   3) Use hand signals (My wife ties a red scarf to her wrist to make
      her hand signals more visable).

   4) establish eye contact with idiot drivers before you execute any
      maneuvers.

   5) Become paranoid when you ride (yes they are out to get you).

As for theft prevention, I have two methods.  My nice, expensive bike
NEVER is out of reach.  I have had some problems with this technique
(it seems that some building security people have very narrow minds).
The other is the anti-theft paint job.  My commuting bike (not-so-
expensive) was attacked with a chain and three different cans of
paint before it left the bikeshop.  We even bent up the rods holding
the fenders on.  The bike now appears to be 50 years old.

I am sure that this isn't the proper forum for Bicycle discussions,
but it just sorta happened.
                                        Brian lloyd

------------------------------

DP@MIT-ML 10/13/80 21:40:03 Re: Bicycle built for N.

   In the town where I used to live (Marblehead), there was held
each year a race between bicycles and canoes. All finishers were
disqualifed as they crossed the finish line, which entiled them
to the consolation prize provided by a local beer distributor.
As a publicity hack our local bike shop a bicycle buit for 8. It
was constructed out of motorcycle components. We figured it had
the drag of twice the fattest/tallest person but the power of 8.
It was fitted with a fairing of sorts, and was capable of speeds
in the 50 mph range.  Its maneuverability left much to be desired
however, so we were unable to enter. (strange bikes are a tradi-
tion in this race, a double deck, quad beer cooler VW chassis with
pedals and fringed top enters every year.)

                                enjoy,
                                jeff.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 OCT 1980 0355-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #112
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 22 Oct 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 112

Today's Topics: SF Books - Troika Incident & Darkover & TNotB Trivia,
                      Future - Transportation, SF TV - Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 October 1980 0706-EDT
From: William Sholar at CMU-10A
Subject: The Troika Incident . . .

Does anyone know where I can lay my hands on a copy of James
Brown's The Troika Incident, a SF/Utopian novel published (and
apparently remaindered) by Doubleday in 1967 or 68?  Pointers
appreciated . . .

Bill Sholar

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1980 0057-EDT
From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS
Subject: Darkover, etc.

You got a fairly good answer on the SF lovers list, so I will just
add three things that may not be clear from it:

- Darkover isn't really a series.  No book depends upon your knowing
    the others, and characters and/or features of Darkover change
    between books.
- It is harder than it sounds to tell what books are part of Darkover
    and what aren't. Pieces of her SF that have no apparent connection
    with Darkover still use Darkovan mythology as the basis for their
    idioms (most commonly Zandru's nine hells). And one novel ("Door
    Through Space" ?) took place on a planet that was essentially
    Darkover (complete with the "dry-towns" and their characteristic
    attitude towards women), but the planet was called something else
    (Wolf, I think).
- Bradley has a preoccupation with sex (most of it unconventional,
    e.g. explicit sex scenes between human and alien, group sex, and
    homosexuality). I find it all tasteful, and I am a Puritan (in
    the technical sense - Calvinist theology and traditional Christian
    ethics). But if you are very sensitive about these issues you may
    consider some of it pornographic. (But if you are looking for
    traditional Christian views in science fiction you unfortunately
    will have a very short reading list - about the only thing
    recently is the very fine portrait of the Friends in "Still
    Forms on Foxfield".)

If you like her writing (as opposed to liking it because of its
science fiction aspects), you might also want to look for "The Catch
Trap" which is a long novel about two male homosexual trapeze artists
during the 1940's and 1950's.  Presumably it will not be filed in the
science fiction section of your friendly bookstore. (Indeed my usual
local bookstore didn't have it at all.)

------------------------------

Date: 20 OCT 1980 1322-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Heinlein esoterica

    2. Marilyn "Fuzzy Pink" Wisowaty Niven (the nickname comes from
her undergraduate years at MIT; she's also sent an occasional msg
to SFL). As ERIC noted, Ginnie is Heinlein's wife; I'm told she had
bright red hair when younger and appears as heroine in a number of
his books (spec. THE PUPPET MASTERS).  Poul Anderson's OPERATION
CHAOS (q.v.) stars a werewolf (Steven Matuchek) and a redheaded
witch (Virginia xxxxx Matuchek), and is dedicated "to Robert
Heinlein, who has his own redheaded Virginia".
    3. There is a J. F. Bone who wrote some Laser Books; this
\might/ be him.
    6. Bishop Berkeley is publicly credited with the philosophical
proposition that things don't exist and events don't happen without
witnesses ("If a tree fell in the forest when there was no one around
to hear it, would it make a noise?"); I don't \think/ he was the one
who calculated (from biblical evidence) that the world was created in
4004 BC (on an afternoon in late October).
    7. Were John and Penelope the first King and Queen of Narnia?
    8. The Wogglebug is a character in several of the Oz books.

------------------------------

Date: 21 October 1980 1512-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: cost of roadbeds

A billion for 180 miles of track plus R and D doesn't sound too bad.
Plain old freeways (the LA kind) certainly cost more than $5 million
a mile (they were a million a mile when I was a kid).  If you account
for the R and D, freeways probably cost more. The subway that's going
to be built in the Wilshure corridor will cost hundreds of millions
for only a few miles, so its WAY more expensive.  Nothing's cheap
nowadays.

People complaining about 15 mile trips to work or whatever should
consider another means of transportation that we'll probably see a
lot more of in the future.  It's called moving closer to where you
work. It's going on right now.

------------------------------

Date:    22 Oct 1980 0014-EDT
From:    WARREN.WAKE at CMU-10D 
Subject: Survival on a Bike

Re: Brian Lloyd's comments-

    Personally, I've found helmets to Identify one as a particularly
tempting target to a certain malicious class of motorist.  I've been
assaulted by the same on several occasions... I admit it may not be
too wise to ride on a Saturday night... the only effective way for a
cyclist to deal with this class of motorist is with Hand Grenades.
In terms of riding strictly defensively, though, I find riding on
the left side to be the safest.  While riding on the right, on one
occasion a motorist deliberately pulled over in front of me, and
jammed on his brakes, on another occasion I was (accidentally?)
sideswiped, and on yet a third occasion, I was hit from behind by
a waving fist.  If you're riding on the left, a motorist only has a
fraction of the time he'd otherwise have to plan a malicious attack,
and obviously you can watch for him coming.  Clearly, an ounce of
paranoia is worth a pound of cure... Is it really sane to trust
ANYONE with a car to drive up BEHIND you and safely pass?  Hmmmm.

-Warren Wake-

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 (Friday) 1131-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Humour for the day

From the Fall '80 issue of "Family Safety":

   Georgia police think their state has the most creative motorists.
   In a recent issue of the Georgia State Lodge of the Fraternal
   Order of Police, officers swapped stories about the best excuses
   they've gotten from errant drivers. One officer told of pulling
   over a speeding motorist and, "As I approached the driver's
   window, he flipped open his wallet and spoke to it, saying, 'Kirk
   to Enterprise, Kirk to Enterprise, beam me out of here fast'."

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1980 (Monday) 1955-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON (Steve Platt)
Subject: The Prisoner

Concerning "The Prisoner" - last episode...

     After considerable thought about the entire series and the last
episode, running through more and more general theories as to exactly
*what* was happening, the only conclusion I was capable of coming to
was that nothing was certain, nothing was concludable.  There was no
solution to this puzzle, unlike most of TV, this show is not shallow
- it is bottomless.
     The last episode confirmed this, in fact in a limited extent,
it conclusively demonstrated that any ideas you may have about
*anything* were total folly, without support.
     In fact, most of the presuppositions you may have are probably
invalid...

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/22/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It includes
comments on the final episode of the Prisoner series.  In doing so it
describes the events of the resolution to the series.  People who are
not familiar with this series may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1980 1838-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Prisoner last episode

The Ontario Educational Communications Agency prepared a fairly
extensive guide and commentary to the Prisoner series a few years
ago. Its comments on the final episode are reproduced here:

   "In my end is my beginning." And both, as in T.S. Eliot's poem,
    are in a wasteland. Is the Prisoner on his way to resign his
    stressful, top-secret job, as he was when the series started?
    Was his whole Village experience a prolonged nightmare, a
    nervous breakdown that preceded, or accompanied, his resolve
    to quit? "I know too much. I know too much."

   "Fall Out" is like the last chapter of ALICE THROUGH THE LOOKING
    GLASS, which ends with Alice crowned, applauded, cheered, and
    resorting to violence to get herself out of that world. The
    eerie trial, with its judges and prisoners and shifting
    identities, also has masterly echoes of Kafka, of Pirandello,
    of Orwell, of Beckett. But Carroll said it all first.

   It's a shrewd Establishment ploy, when faced with a maverick, to
   give that maverick a position of power. "We need you. We are all
   yours." It's hard to resist that plea, and the sellout is often
   accomplished. But what is it after all, to be a king or queen, if
   you are only a king or queen of chessmen? The king is a pawn as
   well, only a less active one.  No. 6 sees this final temptation
   for what it is, and fights it out with his various personified
   identities, and wins clear.  It is not worth anything to be
   No. 2 in this world; it is not even worth it to be No. 1.

   Can These Bones Live?

   Why does the Kid revolutionary keep singing "Dry Bones" and why
   do the others take it up? It is practically the theme song of
   this last installment.  Read Ezekiel, chapter 37; verses 1 to
   14. In fact, read all of Ezekiel up to that point. It expresses
   Patrick McGoohan in this series. The world he sees is a valley
   of dry bones. Son of man, can these bones live? He sees himself
   as a watchman over a new Israel, a prophet giving warning.  An
   end is come.  The end is come.  "Oh hear the word of the Lord."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 OCT 1980 0544-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #113
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 23 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:
 SF Books - Glass Tower & TNotB Trivia & RAH's Juvenile/Adult Fiction,
 Alien Intelligence - Stress, SF Movies - CHARLY II, SF TV - Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 10/22/80 11:08:19 Re: Silverberg books

     Some of you may recall that about 6 months ago I made a
title/author request for which the winning answer was "The Man in
the Maze" by Robert Silverberg.  Recently, I reread the book for
the first time since I was 10. The book was still excellent. Good
plot, execution, even good sociological commentary.
     However, to appese my curiosity about the general quality of
Silverberg books, I then read "The Glass Tower" which happened to
be the only other book by him that I happened to have on hand.  I
was severely disappointed.  He raised several conflicts early in
the book (the messages from space; his own ensuing mental break-
down; the building of the tower; his differences with his son;
and the android equality issue) that led me to a point of eager
anticipation.
     However, he then spent the next 100 pages continuing with
characterizations that were not getting any deeper as well as
several (read "too many") somewhat boring sexual encounters.
     And then as the topper, he finishes up with an ending that
only resolves one and possibly two of the conflicts.  The others
are simply sidestepped as if to say, "they really weren't
important ones anyway".
     I am not the type that objects to sex in SF.  I am even
willing to have a lot of sex in the book and enjoy having it there.
(for example, Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"). However, I am not
willing to have another boring sexual encounter on every other page.
I began to feel as if I was reading a gothic romance!  The sexual
encounters should ADD something to the characterizations, or should
be an integral part of the plot, in order to justify their existence.
     I realize that this is not a new book by Silverberg, but I felt
so strongly about this one that I just had to comment.  I will not
take this as a final comment on Silverberg, either; I intend to read
more in the hopes that other of his works will be better.
        
        Greg

P.S. As a bottom line on "The Glass Tower", if you must read it
     at all, stick to the first 20 pages and then to the last 5.
     Everything in between is better utilized as toilet paper!
     (I'll no doubt hear some flaming for that comment)

------------------------------

SHL@MIT-MC 10/22/80 22:06:06 Re: Creation of Earth

It was Archbishop James Ussher in 1658 who calculated from the bible
that the earth was created at 8 P.M. October 22, 4004 B.C.

                        Stephen Landrum

------------------------------

Date: 22 October 1980 12:47-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>

I find it easy to believe that RAH's 'juvenile fiction' is just
de-sex-ified adult fiction, as I have found several of his juvenile
works shelved in the 'adult' section of my local library (and found
them entertaining, too).

------------------------------

RUSSEL@MIT-AI 10/23/80 01:20:32 Re: Lizards of the Southwest

I seem to recall reading an article on a peculiar species of Arizonan
lizard not too long ago in Nature (the UK's version of Science). The
article related that all members of this species discovered to date
had been female, and in fact - when kept in captivity, they reproduced
by aspermatogenesis (aka Virgin Birth) to a woman.  Could this be the
homosexual lizards we've been looking for of late?  Apparently, during
times of environmental stress, selected members of the population will
change sex to mix the genes up a little.  Naturally, this assumes that
there is more than one genotype floating in the gene pool.  Anybody
else read the article and can give a pointer?

-- Dan Russell @ Rochester

------------------------------

CSH@MIT-AI 10/23/80 00:13:47

If anyone is interested in Charly II, the sequel to Charly, a handout
was passed out today (10/22) at Draper Laboratory. It seems that they
have decided to film some footage of the lab and use it to represent
their medical research and treatment facility.

Anyone feeling curious might like to know that the filming takes
place starting tomorrow morning. Since film crews are notorious for
disliking having people underfoot, anyone who wants to watch should
probably keep some reasonable distance away.

                                     ---csh

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1980 16:43:23-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: The Prisoner

Steve Platt has voiced one of the more common conclusions about The
Prisoner series, but one I cannot subscribe to, since I have heard
Patrick McGoohan speak on the subject, and he says (and he should
know) that the answer is given in the last episode.  Since I don't
want to get delegated to the spoiler warning section of the bulletin,
I will leave his explaination out, but people should know that such
an interview exists, which is often played after the last episode
when our local PBS station (KQED) runs the series.
                Ken

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/23/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss some of the ambiguities in the Prisoner series. People who
are not familiar with this series may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1980 1133-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: prisoner (spoiler warning)

Some thoughts on the prisoner volunteered by my prisoner fan friends:

  1) We are all familiar with the following piece of dialog:
     #6: Who is number 1.
     #2: You are number 6.
     My friends ask "what if the correct punctuation is actually
     'You are, number 6.'"

  2) In the episode where he escapes back to London and gets to his
     own house, we can see very clearly the address on the door. It
     is "1."

If all this has been discussed before, then I'm sorry to bring it up,
if not, well food for thought?

 -Jim

------------------------------

Date: 22 October 1980 1206-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Dave Ackley <David.Ackley at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  Prisoner conlusion question

I haven't seen the final episode in many years (since the original
run, I think), and there is a question that I've always hoped to
resolve about it: perhaps others have noted it or know that it is
a bogus memory:
     As I recall the (very) end, MacGoohan walks back into his flat
in London.  My memory tells me that the door to his flat CLOSED BY
ITSELF.  If it did occur, it was a throwaway, in the background of
a shot from in the flat with MacGoohan approaching the camera. Can
anybody (dis)confirm this?
                -Dave

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1980 1425-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: in reply to David.Ackley at CMU-10A

What happens is that McGoohan and the dwarf butler arrive at his
London apt. and see the car out in front. McGoohan climbs in and
zooms off. The butler turns around, and the camera watches as he
steps up to the door which automatically opens. He walks inside
and it then automatically closes. Then we cut to McGoohan zooming
around, and finally the barren road scene which is in the opening
credits of most of the episodes, and finally the end.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 OCT 1980 0432-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #114
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Friday, 24 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 114

Today's Topics: SF Books - TNotB Trivia & Engine Summer & Silverberg,
                     Causes of Bugs - Daemons, SF TV - Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1980 08:51 PDT
From: Monahan.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Heinlein esoterica

7. The first King and Queen of Narnia were named Frank and Helen.
   There are no characters in the Narnia books named John or
   Penelope (as far as I recall).

John

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 1980 0848-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "Engine Summer"

Has anybody else out there read "Engine Summer" by John Crowley?
Of the class of books that use a post-collapse setting to get a
perspective on our times, it is by far the most interesting.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 1980 1019-PDT
From: Yeager@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: "Glass Tower"

Well, "The Tower of Glass" is not one of Bob Silverberg's better
novels, but I found pages 21 to end-5 a bit more entertaining than
Faust did.

In fact, It is rather amusing that he thinks those (end - 25) pages
of "boring sexual encounters" are appropriate for TP!  Gee, I don't
even remember them as being boring...but I am from the SF Bay Area.

I have read nearly all of his post 1965 stories, and there are a
good number of them, and have found that he tends to use sex as
padding when there is nothing better to do, or, when he just wants
to get a book off to the publisher. Some other authors use meaning-
less encounters with random structures (Niven did that frequently in
"A World Out of Time," and it was obvious he was padding there...but
what the hell, authors have got to eat too!), or endless chase scenes
(those bore me), and I guess if one is going to pad a story to make
a novel, sex is as good as anything.

As an anecdote, I was talking to Bob Silverberg one afternoon at a
book store when someone came up to him and said, "would you sign
this book for me." Bob didn't recognize the title, read the first
few pages, and didn't recognize those either!  We all had a good
laugh! 

Bill.

PS. Sorry for any bad puns (I don't think they were intended, but
    then again...)

------------------------------

Date: 16 October 1980 1450-EDT (Thursday)
From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01)
Subject:  Gremlins (again)

In the discussion of gremlins a couple of weeks back, I don't recall
any mention of an article by P. Bentoni which appeared in Galaxy some
years back. The article concerned Murphy's Law. Not having back copies
of Galaxy, I rely on the following review by E.  L.  Robertson, which
appeared in Computing Reviews, Sept. 1977.

 "Bentoni, P.
  Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
  Galaxy 37, 6 (Sept. 1976), 119-144.

      The notion of `software physics' has recently received some
  attention, but this is the first article, to this reviewer's know-
  ledge, that concerns itself with software metaphysics.  The topic
  investigated is the well-known empirical law first recognized by
  Murphy ....  Rather than investigate the application of this law
  in the complicated context of software bugs, it is equated to and
  investigated with the simpler phenomenon of sticky-side down (SSD,
  a generalization of the more familiar jelly-side down phenomenon).
  
      The author has discovered that Murphy's Law is due to the
  action of Maxwell's daemons, whose existence had previously been
  hypothetical.  Unfortunately, the author explains in detail the
  relationship between these daemons and the SSD phenomenon, but
  does not elaborate on how they induce bugs and generally cause
  disorder in this world, providing an increase in entropy which
  is used to decrease entropy elsewhere -- in particular, to feed
  the fires of Hell.  This actually lends credence to programming
  managers' comments such as: `If you don't get those bugs out, all
  Hell will break loose.'
  
      The article is a welcome investigation of this little-known
  phenomenon -- so little-known that Satan himself was unaware of
  these daemons until recently.  One hopes that future investigation
  will yield connections between the chief-daemon team and aspects
  of software engineering."
  
--Paul Hilfinger

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/24/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
some of the ambiguities in the Prisoner series.  People who are not
familiar with this series may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 1980 14:21:15-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: Prisoner

(a) Thoughts about who #1 is should be flagged with spoiler warnings.
    That's the major mystery of the series!
(b) The door does indeed close by itself at the end of the last
    episode.  McGoohan says that this is to show that he may have
    gotten out of the village itself, but he has taken it with
    him, including the persona of the butler.
                Ken

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 OCT 1980 0500-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #115
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 25 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:
                   DEC Recipients, New Outer Limits Guide,
      SF Books - Engine Summer & Silverberg, SF Movies - Flash Gordon,
                       Causes of Bugs - Daemons, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Administrivia: A Note to SF-LOVERS recipients at DEC

For the last few months SFL has been redistributed to people at DEC
by Paul Young.  Paul has asked me to remind you, that anyone at DEC
who wants access to SFL should send mail to ABRAMOWITZ at BABEL, or
to YOUNG at KL2137.
                                                             -- RDD

------------------------------

Date: 25 October 1980 0220 EDT
From: The Moderator
Subject: Outer Limits Episode Guide ( new version )

Due to numerous recent requests for his Outer Limits Episode Guide,
Lauren has taken the time to re-edit the Guide. For the many people
who joined the list after the Guide was distributed in January, and
anyone who wants the revised version, copies have been established
at the sites listed below. Everyone should obtain the file from the
site which is most convenient for them. If you are unable to do so,
please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to
make sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the
files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods
for providing space for the materials on their systems, and to
Lauren for his work in preparing the Guide.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI       AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS OLEG
CMUA         TEMP:OLEG.SFL[A210DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC    [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLOVERS-OLEG.TXT
Rutgers      PS:<SOLOMON>New-Outer-Limits.Episode-Guide
SU-AI        OUTER.LIM[T,DON]
MIT-Multics  >udd>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>outer-limits-episode-guide

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 10/24/80 14:36:13 Re: Engine Summer

I found the book to be very good.  It has a floating type of a
fantasy feeling where you (the reader) are never exactly sure
about what is going on.  I think the reason is that the culture
and the vocabulary of the characters is never explained to the
reader; it is like you are listening in on a story being told
by one character to her contemporaries. (This makes it a little
hard to read at first.) In the end, I really enjoyed Crowley's
writing style, and by the time I finished the book I felt at
least one or two heartstrings get twinged.  The book is well
worthwhile.

------------------------------

Date: 23 October 1980 14:33-EDT
From: Daniel L. Weinreb <dlw at MIT-AI>
Subject: FAUST@MIT-ML's message about Silverberg books

You are right about Silverberg.  I was about ready to give up on him
when a friend recommended "Man in the Maze" and "Dying Inside", both
of which I liked.  So you might want to try "Dying Inside". But a lot
of the rest of the Silverberg has been disappointing for the reasons
you mention.  His sexual encounters are SO boring and SO devoid of
any semblance of warmth or caring that I find them not just a waste
of time but positively disturbing.  "The Stochastic Man" and "Up The
Line" and the one about the "urban monads" whose name I can't remember
are particularly bad this way.

------------------------------

Date: 10/25/80 02:06:13
From: Jim Cox <APPLE at MIT-MC>

     In reply to FAUST's message about Robert Silverberg, I too have
found that the quality of his work varies considerably.  For example,
I thought that "The World Inside" and "Shadrach in the Furnace" were
exceptional.  However, I also read a book of his which, I believe,
was called "Recalled to Life."  This book was abysmally bad, ranking
with some of the worst fiction (SF or otherwise) that I've ever read.

     About the first two books, though, it is clear in these
that Silverberg knows how to craft serious SF when he wants to.
The characters are well-rounded, the action is well-plotted, and
both stories have interesting things to say about a future society
which could arise from today's.  "The World Inside" is about a future
Earth that is so overcrowded that everybody lives in gigantic hi-rise
buildings: a not uncommon SF theme, but Silverberg really takes these
well-worn ideas down imaginative paths.  "Shadrach in the Furnace" is
about the black doctor who takes care of the aged world dictator, who
thinks himself descended from both Ghengis Khan and Mao Tse-tung. This
last book is one of the best SF books I have ever read. Both books are
written, curiously enough, in the present tense.  Both, too, are well
worth reading. But if you ever buy an unfamiliar Silverberg book, you
are really taking a chance!

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 10/24/80 11:34:24 Re: Silverberg and TP as padding

     I object to the use of padding in novels, be it sex, chase
scenes or whatever.  If the author has only a small contribution
to make with a small idea, there is a form of fiction called short
story that should be used.
     Contrary to Yeager's belief, I do not find sex boring, but only
the use of sex as padding boring.  Should I wish to read of sexual
encounters, boring or otherwise, there are several other popular
sources for such literature that at least are more direct in their
announcement of their intended subject matter.  I need not spend
time reading random SF novels for it.
     Related to the fact that authors need eat too; not at our
expense!  Payment should be received for value provided.  Luckily
in the case of "The Glass Tower", I bought the book with the front
cover removed for 30 cents; barely the price of a peanut butter
and jelly sandwich these days. I'd say that that was a fair trade.
Presumably, had the book sold well, I would not have been able to
make such a purchase.  Note that a roll of TP goes for about the
same price.
     I will make no comment as to what constitutes an exciting
sexual encounter in the SF Bay area.
        Greg Faust

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1980 2320-PDT (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Flash Gordon

Well gang, I just saw preliminary footage from the upcoming remake
of "Flash Gordon", to be released around Xmas time, supposedly.

Frankly, it looks awful.  The whole thing appears to have been done
as a joke.  Disco music seems to abound.

The best comparison I can give would seem to be with the worst of
Battlestar Dyslexia and Buck Rogers (TV version).

Sorry about that, folks.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 10/24/80 14:48:28 Re:  Maxwell's Gremlins

Excuse me, but how does one contact these little critters?  Just
the other day, I got approached by this somewhat unsavory looking,
glassy-eyed physicist who wanted to ask a gremlin about a theore-
tical relationship between the Judeo-Christian concept of the soul
and the thermodynamics of entropy. For some reason he thought that
I (or sf-lovers) would be able to contact these daemons.  Do you
suppose there is some odd kind of a business proposition going on
here that I ought to avoid?

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/25/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
suggest yet another solution to a puzzle posed by TESB.  People who
have not seen TESB may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1980 23:11:45-PDT
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: TESB and the Last Hope

An interesting speculation based upon a revelation in sf-lovers that
the lead role for Star Wars was supposed to be a female who was trying
to rescue her brother, to whit: maybe Lucas will get his wish with the
last hope being an unknown sister of Luke.  Remember, kiddies, you
heard it here first.
                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1980 0853-PDT
From: Geoffrey C Mulligan (at The Pentagon) <GeoffM at RAND-AI>
Subject: TESB...  the OTHER...

Perhaps the "OTHER" could be Luke's sister?  Maybe Luke and his
sister were separated at a very very young age, when Luke's father
was killed.  Lucas could very well get his female lead.

        geoff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 OCT 1980 0324-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #116
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 26 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Landmark Poll Results & Landmark Poll Commentary
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 October 1980 0220-EST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Landmark SF Poll Results

The landmark poll is finally finished. Our thanks go to the 40+ people
who responded with over 120 messages. The list has been divided into
two parts. The first is the actual landmark list, and the second is
a larger list consisting of classics and filler for rounding out the
field. In no way do we claim this to be final, or even objective, but
we do feel it is a reasonable sampling of the better and more
interesting works of sf.

The landmark and filler lists have been placed in the files listed
below. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since
the files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material
will also be added to the SF-LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Jon Solomon, and Don Woods for
providing space for the materials on their systems, to Malis at BBNE,
Don at SU-AI, OTA at MIT-MC, PKaiser at BBND, and HJJH at UTEXAS, for
their special help in sorting the initial nominations, and of course
to everyone who responded to the poll.

[ And lastly, a reminder: Please do not distribute the Poll outside
  the SFL community, because it could attract bad publicity to us
  and more generally to the net itself.                     -- RDD  ]

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI       AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS FLNDMK
CMUA         TEMP:FLNDMK.SFL[A210DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC    [Maxc]<Brodie>SFLOVERS-FLNDMK.TXT
Rutgers      PS:<SOLOMON>Results-of-Landmark.Query
SU-AI        LNDMRK.FIN[T,DON]
MIT-Multics  >udd>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>landmark-sf-query

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 1980 0900-EDT
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Landmarks Poll - Final Ballot

The results already seem to me somewhat skewed by our short memories
and limited perspective.  How well I recall some years ago when a San
Francisco rock radio station took a poll among its listeners to find
the 300 best rock numbers of all time; the results reflected heavily
that the main listeners to (and buyers of) pop singles are young
teenagers, whose memories didn't extend far back -- about 40 weeks,
in fact.  How could we have "War with the Newts" here, and not "Brave
New World"?  Makes me feel old.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1980 0220-EST
From: The Moderator
Subject: Background Discussions to the Landmark Poll

Several background discussions took place among the panel members
and others during the formulation of the Landmark Poll.  A few
concerned the nature of SF (some of which have appeared in the
digest under the WHAT IS SF? heading) while others focussed on
the nature and merit of particular works. Here is the text of the
discussion about Zelazny's AMBER series which the Poll stimulated.
We hope that you will find this interesting of itself, as well as
answering a few of the more common questions about the Landmark
Poll.
                                                           --  RDD

     ---------- Is Zelazny's Amber Series an SF Landmark? ----------

     Date:  6 Oct 1980 2258-PDT
     From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
     Subject: Amber series aside

     I, for one, am amazed that the experts didn't see fit to demote
     Zelazny's Amber series from the landmark category. For one, it
     ain't sf. I just finished reading it and it falls in quality so
     much after the 3rd book, I had to force myself to finish. So at
     least \I'll/ cast a vote against it, for whatever it's worth.

     --------------------

     Date:  8 Oct 1980 at 1958-CDT
     From: hjjh at UTEXAS 

     ^^^^^^Amber mis-handled?  Nowwww WAAAAAIDUH MINNNN-UTTTTT!^^^^^^

     Right there in my evaluation it said:

          \Is/ it SF?  Or a landmark?  I'm open to conviction.

     What more did you want?  It's not SF by \my/ female-protagonists-
     collection definition, but y'all never did clarify that fantasy-
     but-with-"the-nature-and-assumptions-of-SF" double talk.  And
     since I'm not "into" Zelazny, even tho it did not seem like a
     landmark to ME, I was willing to entertain any arguments put
     forward by anyone more knowledgeable about Zelazny's work and
     its impact.

     DON'T blame "the experts".

     --------------------

     Date: 8 Oct 1980 2152-EDT
     From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
     Subject: Amber

     There may be a point there.  Let me give you my argument (which
     is post hoc, since I merely looked at the entry and sort of said
     "Of course").  It seems to me that the powers, abilities, milieu,
     etc.  of Amber are basically the same as Zelazny's standard "Lord
     of Light", "Creatures of Light and Darkness", etc. "men as gods"
     schtick.  I.e., the only difference is that the technical backup
     is less explicit (mostly references to Dworkin's artifices). It's
     all very much in the telepathy/powers-of-the-mind genre.  In
     addition, the series is a landmark in that it has been incredibly
     influential.  Farmer's World of Tiers series is one example that
     comes to mind immediately (and one that is much more explicitly
     SF).  On the other hand, Farmer's series is not the landmark, it
     was always (at least in my mind) derivative of the Amber series.

     I vote to leave it in.  Cast aside the Fantasy doubts (as it is
     not explicitly fantasy) and vote for the landmarkness.  Which
     brings up another gripe of mine about the whole process; why
     votes for series as a whole?  No series is of uniform quality...
     Oh well, probably too late for that quibble to matter.

          Dave

     --------------------

     Date:  9 OCT 1980 0220-EDT
     From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
     Subject:  The AMBER Series - An Opinion

     1. The Amber series has had a great impact on the field.

     I have serious doubts about whether that is true.  I will leave
     someone else to develop those arguments.  However, in any case
     Farmer's WORLD OF TIERS series does NOT support this contention.
     The AMBER series is derived from the WORLD OF TIERS series. (see
     message by AQE@MC in [SFL V1 #52]) The primary difference is that
     TIERS uses a technological background for the basic structure of
     the universe and AMBER uses a magical background.

     2. The AMBER series is technology/para-psychic abilities
        presented as magic.

     Zelazny's work often includes a technological underpinning for
     the traditional concepts of magic. Indeed his work raises the
     throwaway pseudo-science/technical explanation of the 1940's
     pulps to high art.  LORD OF LIGHT with its automated prayer
     wheels, native aliens as demons, and electronic mental encoding
     as the essence of a soul is one of the best examples. So is the
     juxtaposition of magic with technology in JACK OF SHADOWS and
     the marriage of magic with technology in the recent CHANGELING.
     However, the technological underpinning for AMBER is not merely
     less explicit, its non-existent.  In AMBER we have the pattern,
     the Jewel of Judgement, Tir'na Nogth, Rebma, and the cards all
     without any type of background justification such as we see in
     his other mixed works. Indeed, it is the WORLD of TIERS series
     that provides a technological underpinning to the background.
     In AMBER we have the exact opposite of TIERS and Zelazny's
     other works. Here technology does not masquerade as magic, but
     magic masquerades as technology.

     Neither can I readily accept parapsychic abilities as the
     non-magical "science" justification. AMBER differs widely from
     the customary assumptions of this class of works.  For example
     compare AMBER with Bixby's IT'S A GOOD LIFE. Further, even if
     we accept the parapsychic abilities argument, it only covers
     the ability to manipulate Shadow.  What about Rebma, Tir'na
     Nogth, and of course the Unicorn?


     I consider NINE PRINCES IN AMBER (Book 1 of the series) an
     excellent fantasy.  It is an entertaining reworking of the story
     of "the lost monarch in search of himself and his place" using
     a modern setting.  Unfortunately the rest of the series does not
     match NPIA.  THE GUNS OF AVALON is a simple action/adventure
     fantasy. SIGN OF THE UNICORN improves over TGOA in that it begins
     to examine events more closely.  However, it never comes close to
     equalling NPIA. THE HAND OF OBERON and THE COURTS OF CHAOS simply
     elaborate a more complex background of motivations and abilities
     which are never fully developed. Instead they are brusquely tied
     up and chopped off in TCOC. Too long in length and the time taken
     to write it, Zelazny would probably have done better if he had
     started with FOUR PRINCES IN AMBER.


     In summary, the AMBER series is neither science fiction nor a
     landmark and I vote against it with Stuart.

                                                         Enjoy,
                                                           Roger


     PS Regarding series versus single work - In the call for
        nominations it was clearly stated that you could nominate a
        series or individual works from a series at your discretion.
        Amber was nominated by three people.  Each one nominated it
        as a series.

     --------------------

     Date: 9 Oct 1980 1013-EDT
     From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
     Subject: [Re: The AMBER Series - An Opinion]

     Okay, I yield.  Amber is not SF.  In any case, "Lord of Light"
     is earlier, explicitly SF, and better written. Actually it was
     "This Immortal" that was the first of Zelazny's works to explore
     this territory.  You're absolutely right about Farmer's "World
     of Tiers" series, although I think Farmer has admitted borrowing
     from Amber once it got started. Of course Farmer's series remains
     uncompleted in the usual Farmer fashion...The influential concept
     in both of these (to defend against another comment) is the
     "pocket world". You see a lot of them around these days; Varley's
     "Titan" series is the current example.

        Dave

     --------------------

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 OCT 1980 0542-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #117
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 27 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:
           JPL Recording on Voyager Encounter with Saturn,
 SF Books - Landmark Poll Commentary & SF Aliens & COSMOS (the book),
    SF TV - Prisoner, Future - Transportation, Star Wars - Trivia
----------------------------------------------------------------------

GNU@MIT-MC 10/25/80 20:44:52
Re: 2-minute recording from JPL: 213-354-7237

It's usually updated Tuesday and Friday.  Voyager will
pass Saturn on November 12.  (Found via PCNET BBS.)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1980 1703-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: landmark poll

No Wells and no Verne, not even as fillers.  Did no one
nominate them or were they scratched by nay votes?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1980 2039-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: no wells/verne

If you will recall, the original specification said
'within the last 50 years'.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1980 at 1809-CDT
From: glenn at UTEXAS

LAUREN's recent OUTER LIMITS guide reminded me of an inexpensive book
that I have. It's called "Science Fiction Aliens" compiled and written
by Ed Naha, a Starlog Photo Guidebook published by Starlog Magazine.
It gives brief summaries of movies and TV shows that contain aliens.
The coverage appears to be complete - old, new, good, bad, foreign
and domestic.  Each entry gives a plot summary, date, and information
about actors, writers, etc. It avoids commenting on whether something
is good or bad, even Japenese monster flicks.  At $5.95 (1979 price)
it has been an indispensible reference.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1980 2249-PST
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow <GEOFF at DARCOM-KA>
Subject: Cosmos Book Review
 
             COSMOS. By Carl Sagan. Random House. $19.95.
    
By William Hines       (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

            (William Hines is the Washington-based science
                specialist for The Chicago Sun-Times.)

   This handsome book, Carl Sagan's tenth, was intended as a sort of
course syllabus for his current Public Broadcasting Service science
series of the same name. With the exquisite sense of timing for which
the book industry is famous, Random House officially published it
Friday (Oct. 24), just in time for the fifth show in the series.
   Sagan has become justly famous in a very few years as a popularizer
of science, one who is dedicated to raising the consciousness, and
the enthusiasm, of the public about the scientific method and what
it has given us since mankind's earlier intellectual stirrings. As
a practicing scientist with a university institute of his own, who
needs all the public financial support he can get, Sagan might be
accused of conflict of interest, but we can let that pass.
   What Sagan has done in this book, is to review the history of
science from the very earliest times and to engage in speculation
about where scientific inquiry may lead us in times to come.
   No one who has read widely in the literature of science will
learn much from this book. Isaac Asimov's "Intelligent Man's Guide
to Science" comes to mind as a much more comprehensive treatment of
the general theme, and on specialized aspects of science history
there have been scores of better books, among them Willy Ley's
"Rockets, Missiles and Space Travel" and James R. Newman's four-
volume anthology, "The World of Mathematics."
   The strong point of Sagan's book is precisely the same as the
TV version: the graphics.  The book is lavishly, one might even
say fulsomely, illustrated, largely with frames from the PBS
series. But some of the graphics are rather old hat, the artists'
conceptions of other worlds being more than vaguely reminiscent
of Chesley Bonestell's paintings for Collier's magazine a
generation ago that became enshrined in hard covers under
the title "Across the Space Frontier."
   Sagan, a practicing astronomer, has excellent scientific
credentials, and his ability as a writer speaks for itself in
the cogent prose of both "Cosmos," the book, and "Cosmos," the
TV show.  But in some ways I found the book a disappointment.
To deal with the planet Mars, for instance, without mentioning
Asaph Hall as the discoverer of its two moons, Deimos and Phobos,
is simply inexcusable.
   Similarly, he discusses the scientific method from the ancient
Greeks to the present with no mention of William of Ockham, who
taught in the 13th century that the simplest explanation of any
phenomenon is usually the best one. "Ockham's razor" survives to
this day as a test of scientific truth, and its omission from
this book is puzzling.
   Also, I fear Sagan is at times too caught up in his own role in
science to remember history as it actually happened. In the foreword,
for example, he records that "in the summer and fall of 1976, as a
member of the Viking Lander Imaging Flight Team, I was engaged, with a
hundred of my scientific colleagues, in the exploration of the planet
Mars.  For the first time in human history we had landed two vehicles
on the surface of another world." In a single sentence, Sagan manages
to brush off six manned lunar landings in Project Apollo - all before
1976 - to say nothing of five unmanned Surveyors that had reached
"another world" (the moon) eight to 10 years before Viking.
   As Sagan clearly indicated in the first episode of the TV "Cosmos,"
he has a fascination with antiquity that borders on mania and that
most science buffs share.  No one can question the seriousness of
the loss of the Alexandrian Library.  But it seems to me that Sagan
minimizes (without actually ignoring) the thickness of superstition
that overlays ancient science.
   I was curious, too, about Sagan's statement, in a discussion of
the Pythagorean view of the universe, that "the cube is the simplest
example (of the regular solids), having six squares as sides." I am
open to correction, but it would seem to me that the tetrahedron,
having four equilateral triangles as sides, is at least 25 percent
simpler than the cube.
   These are perhaps quibbles because, as story-telling, "Cosmos" is
well done, as one has come to expect from Carl Sagan. As a topic, it
couldn't be bigger; Sagan says at the start of the TV series and in
the opening sentence of Chapter 1 of the book, "The cosmos is all
that is or ever was or ever will be," and this, too, we have come to
expect. Sagan by now must be the most famous popularizer of science
the world has ever known, and he deserves a good, strong B-plus for
effort.
   But like a brand-new car with a dent in its fender, this book
has its shortcomings. And one should recognize that this is largely
recycled material: You've seen the movie; now read the book.  The
$20 price tag seems hardly justifiable, unless you are looking for
something new for the coffee table this fall.
    
------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1980 1541-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: THE PRISONER

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but there is an
interesting Prisoner 'zine entitled "The Prisoner newsletter"
(surprise) available from The Prisoner Newsletter, P.O. Box 1327,
Midland, MI 48640.  Trial issues appear to be free; the complete
list of at least 17 issues was available, last time I looked.
I'm not enough of a fan to subscribe, myself, but for those
interested . . . .
                Be seeing you,
                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1980 20:59:31 EDT
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: prisoner

I distinctly remember that the number on #6's door at the end of
the final episode was "6".

------------------------------

Date: 26 October 1980 1340-EST (Sunday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10D (N680WW60)
Subject:  supplem. on bike safety

Clarifying a couple of points on my last commentary as far as riding
on the left hand side of the road - I don't recommend breaking any
laws - I'd prefer to change present laws for greatest safety.  I
personally believe that NOT getting hit head on at 45mph is by far
preferable to GETTING hit from behind at 15mph. Personally, I don't
think one has much of a chance in either case. Riding in the middle
of the lane, though, is exactly what has inspired most vicious
attacks by irate motorists that I've encountered. I think that all
those concerned should write their state legislatures encouraging
bike safety programs - bike lanes, etc.

-Warren-

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/25/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Star Wars trivia and in doing so includes a spoiler for TESB.  People
who have not seen TESB may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1980 at 1951-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STAR WARS: La Triviata ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

According to STARLOG, when Lucas was asked what would have happened
if Hamill had been killed in the car accident that occurred between
SW-4 and SW-5, he said that, "There'd be a script change that would
have found a long-lost brother or sister, something genetic, so that
the Force would be with them".

Early plot changes: Not only did the prototype (female) "Luke"
character evolve into Luke AND Leia, but a prototype middle-aged 
mentor character developed into a younger Han and an elderly Ben.

The Emperor's face was only partly that of an 80-year-old woman -- a
monkey's eyes were superimposed.  And Hamill, also, feels there must
be \something/ to the fact that the Emperor looks and sounds a bit
like Obi-Wan.

In the radio series (due on FM stations in March), there is a segment
where Leia is on Alderaan with her father.

Due as a November release from Ballantine, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
NOTEBOOK, containing the full screenplay.  $5.95, a welcome decrease
from the corresponding book for SW-4.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 OCT 1980 0642-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #118
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 28 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 118

Today's Topics: SFL Proposal, SF Books - Silverberg & Coverless PB's,
                 Self-replicating Machines, Future - Transportation,
                              SF TV - Cosmos & Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 OCT 1980 1203-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: A proposition

     Since it is probably rare for anyone in SF-Lovers to know
what many other people in SF-Lovers look like, and the necessity
for secrecy prevents advertising over the loudspeakers, it must be
difficult for anyone at Cons to find out if someone else contributes
to our underground newsletter.  However, I have just learned that it
is possible to obtain color Xerox's on heat-transfer paper, and if
anyone is interested, I am a semi-pro cartoonist.  I could design a
logo of some sort (which would be carefully made so as not to give
away the origin -- it may or may not say SF-Lovers on it, depending
upon reaction) and have them printed and mail them out. You can iron
them on your own tee-shirts or whatever. Thus could you spot another
contributer without having to give that silly SF-Lovers Secret
Handshake which is effective, but somewhat embarassing, especially
in mixed company.
    If you like this idea, (or really hate it) please send me a
message saying so.  If enough people are interested, I'll get on
it, and we'll discuss designs.

RODOF@USC-ECL

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1980 0953-PST
From: Yeager@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Silverberg.

     Gee, Greg, I don't recall saying you don't enjoy sex, but,
"please don't squeeze the Charmin!"

     More to the point, I found Daniel L. Weinreb both saw and missed
the point of the "boring sexual encounters." To Wit:

   "His sexual encounters are SO boring and SO devoid of any semblance
    of warmth or caring that I find them not just a waste of time but
    positively DISTURBING."

     You see, that is precisely the point!  "The Tower of Glass,"
and "The World Inside," both describe a FUTURE devoid of any really
personal caring, and, consequently, sexual encounters are simply for
the sake of sexual satisfication - between consenting adults - and
given the empty existence of the characters in the environment in
which Bob portrays, "boring sex" just might not be so boring for
THEM.  It goes without saying, that one might find this POSSIBLE
future very disturbing, and, if so, the "boring sexual" episodes
have indeed succeeded doing exactly what they were intended to do.

     And, of course, if Greg prefers to use as TP pages covered with
detailed descriptions of boring sexual encounters, and apparently,
shreded in flaming rage from the innards of a COVERLESS paperback
no less, well, who am I to deny him such delights...shred on!

Enjoy,
Bill

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1980 1514-EST
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Stolen Merchandise

With regard to the comments made by Gregg Faust in the October 25 SFL:

        Related to the fact that authors need eat too; not at our
   expense!  Payment should be received for value provided.  Luckily
   in the case of "The Glass Tower", I bought the book with the front
   cover removed for 30 cents; barely the price of a peanut butter
   and jelly sandwich these days. I'd say that that was a fair trade.
   Presumably, had the book sold well, I would not have been able to
   make such a purchase. Note that a roll of TP goes for about the
   same price.

More likely, you were purchasing stolen merchandise.  Certain
publishers allow the return of unsold books for credit, and all allow
returns of damaged books. To save postage, often the cover is returned
and the body of the book is discarded.  Many disreputable bookstores
sell these coverless books, thus ripping off the publisher and the
author and undermining the industry which is their livelihood.

                                Mike Dornbrook

------------------------------

Date: 27 OCT 1980 1212-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Self-Replicating Machines

   I recently asked some questions about self-replicating machines.

1. What was the NASA conference recently held that looked into
   the subject of self-replicating machines for use in developing
   factories on the moon and other planets? Who attended? Is there
   a report available?

2. Has anyone come even close to a self-replicating system, even
   given a unique environment (e.g. a hardware store.)

   So far I have found out:

1. There was a NASA summer conference at Pajoro Dunes that discussed
   self-replicating systems and telefactor devices (waldos). Some of
   the attendees: Robert Frosh and David Criswell of NASA, Marvin
   Minsky and Danny Hillis of AI, Jerry Pournelle, Tom Binford of
   SAIL, Raj Reddy of CMUA, and others.  The conference report is
   not available yet, but there are discussions of the meeting in
   MC:POURNE;OPPORT > and AI:MINSKY;SRS >.

2. The only examples of self-replicating machines reported to me are
   the rocking mechanical models developed by Penrose (the elder)
   many years ago, and the self-replicating gliders of the computer
   game LIFE by Gosper, et al.

     As far as the NASA conference goes, I am willing to wait for the
report.  However, I would still like to hear of any other examples of
self-reproducing systems that have actually been made to operate.

     Thanks,

                  Bob Forward  (FORWARD@USC-ECL, FORWRD@MIT-MC)

P.S.  My daughter-in-law, Marie Laurin, has a guest spot on the TV
      show, "Three's Company" Tuesday night on ABC.  IF the public
      reaction is good, they will use her in more shows.  So watch
      the show, and if you like her performance and want to see
      more, WRITE to "Three's Company", c/o your local ABC station.
      Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 27 October 1980  09:47-EST
From: John A. Pershing Jr. <JPERSHING at BBNA>
Subject: Bike Safety

Apologies to all for [apparently] starting this non-SF discussion.
I have kept quiet since my original comment (on transportation, I
think it was), but I must clear up a bit of misinformation before
somebody gets themself hurt.

PLEASE, before anyone out there starts cycling on the left or
lobbying for new laws, get a copy of John Forrester's book 
"Effective Cycling", available at your local bike shop.  It is
well worth the price, and filled with facts and good ol' common
sense.  Forrester has made a career out of cycling safety -- he
knows a lot more about the topic than all of us combined.

Now, lets get back to SF...

  -jp

------------------------------

Date: 27 October 1980 1324-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: cosmos

I've finally watched a couple of episodes and it seems okay.  It's
true that Sagan looks dumb when trying to look awed, but what the
hell, he's not an actor.  The science may not be 100% correct or
detailed enough to suit this crowd, but there are masses of people
out there that Cosmos is good for.  Remember, the goal is to get
lots of people to be pro-science, technology, engineering, etc,
not to educate them.

I think Connections is a lot better than Cosmos.  Burke is more
enjoyable to listen to, and it covers lots of little-known facts
(at least little known to me).  I recommend it to everyone.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1980 0754-PST (Monday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: The Prisoner

   Anything can be exploited.  Witness a product in the local computer
store: The Prisoner microcomputer game.  Evidently an Adventure clone
in which the object is to escape from this island.  The documentation
is deliberately vague, and in fact consists mostly of quite extensive
information about the television show.  I can get further information
if anyone is actually interested in such things.

        Mike

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/24/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss some of the ambiguities in the Prisoner series.  People who
are not familiar with this series may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1980 10:47 PST
From: The Moderator
Subject: The Prisoner's Door

In [SFL V2 #117], David Mankins noted that the number on the
Prisoner's door in the last episode was "6".  However,...

   David Mankins is wedged.  The door in question even appeared in an
   earlier episode, and the number was the same both times, and NOT
   "6".                                    -- Don <Woods at PARC-MAXC>

   You are wrong, video breath!
   The number was definitely, absolutely, positively "1" (one)!
                                           --  <Weissman at PARC-MAXC>

   A check of a videotape of the last PRISONER episode clearly shows
   that the apartment door is marked "1".
                                  --  Lauren <Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 OCT 1980 0629-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #119
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 29 Oct 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 119

   Today's Topics: SF Books - Landmark Poll Commentary & BAD Series
                   & Silverberg & Holiday Boxed Sets, SFL Proposal,
                        SF Calendar, SF Books - Ellison's Lies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 0632-PST
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI
Subject: Landmark poll

With regard to the SF landmark poll, and the exclusion of some of my
favorites, I realize that I have only myself to blame for not voting.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 (Tuesday) 1758-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: query

In introduction of Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, S. Robinson recounts
an anecdote "which concerns a writer who be a friend that it was
literally impossible to write a book so B*A*D that no one could be
found to publish it.  As the story goes, this writer proseeded to
write the worst, most hackneyed novel of which he was capable -- and
not only did he succeed in selling it, the public demanded better
than two dozen sequels." Robinson doesn't mention who, since he says
he is afraid of law suites from the estate, but notes "Ask around at
any SF convention; it is a reasonably famous anecdote".

Well, not being at a convention I thought I'd ask... Anybody know the
author is is talking about?
                 -Dave

------------------------------

Date: 28 October 1980 19:57-EST
From: Daniel L. Weinreb <dlw at MIT-AI>
Subject: Silverberg

Bill (Yeager at SUMEX-AIM) has a good point: the careless sexual
encounters in "The World Inside" (I have not read "The Tower of
Glass") would make a valid point about that society, if that were
what Silverberg had in mind.  But consider "The Stochastic Man".
We are told how much the main character loves and treasures his
wife, and so on, but the encounters are STILL the same. You might
say this is to tell us something about the main character; could
be, but as far as I can tell, Silverberg is ALWAYS like that.  So
it is my suspicion that he isn't doing it to make points; he just
always writes them that way. I could be wrong, of course.

-- Dan

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 2313-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: boxed sets of books

A recent AP news story discusses the boxed sets of books that will be
on sale for the holiday season.

   'There are, in all, 227 boxed sets this Christmas, including 70 new
titles. The most extensive categories are books for children and young
adults (62 in all); science fiction and fantasy (38 sets, 13 new), and
fiction (31 sets, nine new.) Other categories are cookbooks, classics,
games and puzzles, humor and cartoons, occult, Westerns, mystery-
suspense and, of course, reference.'

Naturally, however, of all the 40 sets named in the article, the only
reference to science fiction or fantasy (about 18% of the sets to be
on sale) was

...For science-fiction fans, there are two Frank Herbert sets - the
Dune trilogy (Berkley, $7.75), and the five-volume "Worlds Beyond
Dune" (Berkley, $9.85).

It shows that the field is still perceived to be trashy. Only proven
bestsellers seem to merit mention.  *sigh*

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 07:22 PST
From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-Lovers logo (SF-L V2 #118)

I think it's a great idea, but you might consider making badges
instead of or in addition to the color Xerox's for tee shirts.
Badges or buttons are very common phenomena at cons, and although
not quite as visible as tee shirts, they are transferable when you
change clothes (which I do at least once a convention (tongue-in-
cheek, but I know some people who DON'T change clothes at a
convention. They like to travel light.)).

Cheryl

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 at 2158-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SO I'LL KNOW YA WHEN I SEE YA! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I really like RODOF's idea of a means of identification!  (But have
it something amenable to reduction to a round 2-inch badge for those
of us who eschew T-shirts, and also to last into future years' cons
after the T-shirts would have worn out.)

As for not knowing what other SFL'ers look like, even when we do
recognize the name -- Dr. Forward must come as the greatest shock.
I had visualized him as looking rather like the mature John Campbell
until my SFBC copy of DRAGON'S EGG arrived. Would you believe a
"jolly Old St. Nick" without the beard, or a cheery, round-faced
"Old King Cole" with a thick crown of beautiful, wavy white hair?

------------------------------

Date: 28 OCT 1980 0847-PST
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: SF-L I.D.

    The proposal has been made for buttons in addition to (or even
instead of) tee-shirts.  I will look into this.  As for the design,
the proposed concept at the moment is a spiderlike BEM sitting in
its "web" (symbolizing the NET -- a good idea from our moderator)
at a computer terminal, with the caption "HACK!"
    Any other ideas or suggestions?

          Rodof

------------------------------

Date: 28 October 1980 2024-EST (Tuesday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject:  Identifing fellow lovers

   Instead of the tee-shirt idea, I have photos of many FAMOUS
SF-LOVERS that I took at the last WORLD-con. Now if you all have
the right display devices and can accept ARPA standard format
images THEN the problem would be partly solved.  Just think, SFL
goes multi-media!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 0618-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: loscon sched?

Any Californian out there know what the Loscon program looks like?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1980 12:54 PST
From: Richard R. Brodie <Brodie at PARC-MAXC>
Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events

Here is the first SF-Lovers event calendar. If you have information
about any events you would like to see added to the calendar, or are
associated in some way with one of the listed events and would like
to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC.

                  Calendar of Science Fiction Events
                        As of October 27, 1980
          --------------------------------------------------


     October 31-November 2, 1980
SIXTH WORLD FANTASY CON. GoH: Jack Vance; Artist GoH: Boris
Vallejo; MC: Robert Bloch. Marriott-Hunt Valley Inn, Cockeysville,
MD. Cost: $25. Registration limited to 750. 6th World Fantasy Con,
Chuck Miller, 239 N 4th St., Columbia, PA 17512.

     November 7-9, 1980
ICON V. Pro GoH: Gordon R. Dickson.; Fan GoH: Bob and Anne Passovoy.
Holiday Inn, Cedar Rapids, IA. Cost: $10. P.O. Box 525, Iowa City,
IA 52244.

     November 7-9, 1980
SCI-CON 2. GoH: Manly Wade Wellman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas.
Chamberlin Hotel, FT Monroe, VA. Cost: $10.  M.E. Tyrrell,
414 Winterhaven Dr., Newport News, VA 23606.

     November 14-16, 1980
ORYCON '80. GoH: Fritz Leiber; Toastmaster: F.M. Busby. Hilton Hotel,
Portland, OR. Cost: $10. Oregon SF Conventions, Inc., P.O. Box 14727,
Portland, OR 97214.

     November 14-16, 1980
PHILCON '80. GoH: Ben Bova; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas;
Editor GoH: Robert Sheckley. Sheraton-Downtown, Philadelphia, PA.
Cost: $6. Joann Lawler, 2750 Narcissa Road, Plymouth Meeting,
PA 19462.

     November 28-30, 1980
LOSCON 7. GoH: Larry Niven. Sheraton-Anaheim, Anaheim, CA.
Cost: $12. Loscon, c/o Los Angeles SF Society, 11513 Burbank Blvd,
North Hollywood, CA 91601.

     November 28-30, 1980
DARKOVER GRAND COUNCIL MEETING 3. GoH: Katherine Kurtz. Radisson
Wilmington Hotel, Wilmington, DE. Cost: $8 till 11/1/80, $10 after.
Armida Council, P.O. Box 7501, Newark, DE 19711.

     January 23-25, 1981
LASTCON. GoH: Hal Clement; Fan GoH: Jan Howard Finder. Albany Ramada.
Cost: $9 till 12/25/80, $12 till 1/16/81, $15 after.  Maria Bear,
216 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180.

     February 13-15, 1981
BOSKONE XVIII. Pro GoH: Tanith Lee; Official Artist: Don Maitz;
science speaker TBA. Sheraton-Boston ($57/single, $69/double).
Cost: $12 until 1 Jan 1981, then $15 to N.E.S.F.A., Box G,
MIT Branch P.O., Cambridge MA 02139. Films, program, seminars,
art show, hucksters room, filksinging, games, costume party,
Glamor and Sparkle.  Info on dealers' tables and art show will
be available soon; dealers' room will probably be larger than
in past years as we now have more of the hotel. Registration
limit of 3000.  (We aren't happy about the room rates either,
but there isn't a usable hotel with significantly better rates.)
SFL liaison: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock).

     April 3-5, 1981
FOOL-CON IV. Confirmed guests: C. J. Cherryh, Lynn Abbey,
Robert Asprin.  Johnson City Community College, Kansas City,
MO. Johnson County Comunity College, Overland Park, KS 66210.

     July 10-12, 1981
ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant. Chase-Park
Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO. Soliciting program ideas and/or people
who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names
to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art
show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold
works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show
space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing
art show rules and would welcome suggestions. 
SFL liaison: ROUNDS at Office-3 (Will Martin).

     September 3-7, 1981
DENVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention.
Pro GoH: C.L.  Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin.
Cost: $25 till 9/15/80; $15 supporting till 9/15/80.
P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO.  80211. (303) 433-9774.

     September 2-6, 1982
CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention.
Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH:
Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL.  Cost: $20 till 12/31/80,
$30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120,
Chicago, IL 60690.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It raises
questions about the novella "All the Lies that are My Life" by Harlan
Ellison.  In doing so it gives away some events in the story.  People
who are not familiar with this story may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 10/28/80 22:27:06
Re: ALL THE LIES THAT ARE HARLAN'S LIFE...

  Who has read the new Harlan Ellison novella, "All the Lies that
are My Life", published in the November issue of Fantasy and Science
Fiction?

     If so , venture some opinions...

     <Spoiler Warning, Spoiler Warning!>

  Does it appear, as it does to some of us, that the "intensly
personal" aspect of the story means that Harlan himself is
masquerading as one of the main characters?  And if so, does
anyone feel, like several of us do, that Harlan is actually
Kercher Crowstairs, (the deceased...) Among the evidence, aside
from the descriptions of Crowstairs which seem to fit Ellison
quite well, is the fact that Ellison <really> did have a maid
who wore a transistor radio which looked just like a hearing
aid, just as it is in the book.

  Well, if you assume that the Crowstairs character *is* more-
or-less Harlan Ellison, that leaves one disturbing question ...
Is he trying to tell us that someone else actually ghosted
several of his books?
  O.K.   Who?   And which ones?

             Or then again, is Harlan just foolin'?

     Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 OCT 1980 0734-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #120
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 30 Oct 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
       SF Art - Varley's Vision Cover, Future - Transportation,
     SF Books - Bicycles & Silverberg & BAD Series & Bestsellers,
      SF Calendar, Which is Forward?, SF Books - Ellison's Lies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

MCLURE@MIT-AI 10/30/80 01:08:08

Who did the nice cover painting for Varley's Persistence of Vision
short story book?  I don't see any credit given in the paperback
version and don't have a hardcover to check.

------------------------------

Date: 28 October 1980 03:00 est
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Phase III bicycle

Can anyone provide a specific reference or more information on the
phase III bicycle? Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 29 October 1980 23:40-EST
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Bicycles in SF

There is: "A Short History of The Bicycle: 401 B.C. to 2677 A.D.",
a short story by Michael Bishop in an anthology ("INTERFACES") of
original "speculative" fiction (read: weak fantasy) edited by
Ursula K. Le Guin and Virginia Kidd, first printing February 1980.

This piece attempts to be humorous with several footnotes referencing
actual contemporary authors by their initials for first/middle names,
except for H. G. Wells.  Probably the only worthwhile story in the
collection, with maybe one or two exceptions.

Noted in the printing history and on the cover that the first "mass
market edition" was printed in October 1980. Is "mass market edition"
the new term for paperback these days?

--Frank

[ The term "mass market edition" ( or "mass market paperback" )
  refers to the small, roughly 4" by 7", paperback books. The term
  "trade edition" or "trade paperback" refers to the larger soft-
  cover books.  Other than size, the major distinctions between a
  trade and a mass market paperback are the better quality binding
  of the trade paperback, and of course the price.          -- RDD ]
                                                
------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 10/29/80 11:40:39 Re: The Silverberg debate

     If it is in fact Silverberg's intention to make the sexual
encounters uncaring in order to give an indication of the inter-
personal encounters of the society in general, then why attribute
them to the androids in "The Glass Tower" since it seems that he
is trying to make the point that the androids CAN care and that
they should therefore be considered equal to the humans?  Is this
contradiction his intention? Has he thought things out far enough
that he even notices the contradiction?  Or is this whole idea
about his concious decision to make the encounters uncaring simply
a rationalization made by certain parties who would not like to
see this type of cheap filler taken out of certain SF novels.
     In any event, I will admit that certain authors have used the
technique of including uncaring sexual encounters in SF novels in
order to show just the type of decadent society that considers such
encounters typical. A notable example is "Brave New World". However,
in order to make such a point, the number of such encounters need
not be inordinately high.  I highly doubt that this is what
Silverberg had in mind when he wrote "The Glass Tower".
     My thanks go out to MD@XX for his remark about the coverless
paper-back rip-off (no pun intended).  I was not aware of this
practice.  The place at which I purchased this and other books
in the same condition is not a book store at all, but merely a
corner convenience store.
     My parting comment is that this discussion of "The Glass Tower"
is rapidly becoming more boring than the material in the book that I
was initially remarking about.  Let us cease and desist and get on
with another discussion.

        Greg Faust

[ Brief addenda: The Silverberg book about "urban monads" mentioned
  by DLW in [SFL V2 #115] is THE WORLD INSIDE, a collection of 4
  or 5 novelettes. Thanks go to George Flynn, Hitchcock at CCA, and
  HJJH at UTEXAS for the identification.                    --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 29 OCT 1980 1253-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: crud query

  Spider Robinson is a nice guy, but he is not one of the most
accurate people in SF. I've never heard the anecdote mentioned and
I've been to a couple of dozen conventions, mostly on the northern
East Coast (where he lives).
   The anecdote may be a borrowing from similar stories in related
fields. "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" (I am told) was written to be
so revoltingly saccharine that no one could stand it, but it became
a hit; the genesis of NAKED CAME THE STRANGER by "Penelope Ash" (a
collaboration of 14 authors headed by an editor who, revolted at the
success of Jacqueline Susann and her ilk, vowed that "any semblance
of literary merit will be quickly blue-penciled into oblivion") was
publicized in the summer of 1969, after the book had been a critical
and popular success.
   I will check this with a friend of mine who knows a lot about
pulp fiction, but I'm not betting on finding anything.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 2258-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: bestsellers (FOR RELEASE SUN NOV 2, AP news wire)

MASS MARKET BOOKS

    3 SHOGUN, by James Clavell. (Dell, $3.50.) An Englishman in
      16th-century Japan: basis of the recent TV mini-series.
      (I call it SF!)
 
TRADE PAPERBACKS

    6 GODEL, ESCHER, BACH, by Douglas Hofstadter. (Vintage, $8.95.)
      A scientist argues that reality is a system of interrelating
      braids. (It beat out Joy of Sex, which was number 7)
   10 THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST, by Robert A. Heinlein.
      (Fawcett-Columbine, $6.95.) A journey through alternate
      universes: science fiction.  (dropping down in the list,
      but still on it after all this time)

------------------------------

Date: 29 OCT 1980 1244-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: convention listing

  I suppose it's my fault for opening my mouth first, but I wonder
what the Boskone XVIII chairman (GFH@CCA) is going to say when she
sees me listed as the contact.  (Especially after I said I really
didn't want a post of responsibility with the con; this will be
the first Boskone in years that I will actually attend.  On the
other hand, I've already surveyed two function rooms to provide
accurate info for the hucksters' room and art show --- so much
for disengagement.)

------------------------------

Date: 29 October 1980 0920-EST (Wednesday)
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A (C410DW60)
Subject:  Marie Laurin

I didn't catch the credits on "Three's Company" last night.
Was your daughter-in-law:

  a) Denise, the (fake?) French beauty in Larry's apartment?
  b) Dorene, the girl who can't say no (the blond nurse)?

Either way, your son's a lucky man.
The show was better than the debate.

------------------------------

Date: 29 OCT 1980 0855-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Marie Laurin

     Marie Laurin was the French girl, Denise.  She is a genuine
certified French beauty since she was Miss Quebec of 1979 and
runner-up for Miss Canada. This was her first acting job and her
future on the show depends strongly on the amount of her fan mail.
     Yes, my son is a lucky man.  He is none other than RODOF, our
cartoonist and tee-shirt painter.

As for the other comment about me in issue 119 of the Newsletter:

               "Ho! Ho! Ho!  Pass over that pipe and
                bowl and you three strike up a jig!"

                           Bob Forward

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 10/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
the Ellison novella "All the Lies that are My Life".  In doing so it
gives away some events in the story.  People who are not familiar with
this story may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 10/29/80 23:28:24 Re: Ellison's "All the lies..."

At WorldCon, Harlan discussed this story a bit, and read an hour's
worth of it to us.  The story is pseudo-autobiographical; i.e.,
bits and pieces of Harlan's and Bob Silverberg's personalities and
lives are entwined into both of the "main" characters (Bedloe and
Crowstairs).  For example, we all know Silverberg's books to be
rather "restrained and conventional" compared to Ellison's stuff,
but in the story Crowstairs says to Bedloe:

   "You know I'm a better writer than you, don't you?  Not just
    sales... BETTER. There's heat in my stuff; it works, it pulls
    the plow. BETTER.  For Christ's sake, Larry, there's nothing
    but cold dead air blowing through your books. They ought to
    hand out wooly mittens with every copy of your stuff."

Now, Bedloe is the narrator and thus should supposedly correspond
to Ellison if the story were purely autobiographical ... yet the
roles seem to be reversed here, with Bedloe's writing more like
Silverberg's. Thus, the ghost writer theory might apply to either
Silverberg or Ellison or both; more likely, neither ... I think
it's just something Ellison threw in to spice things up.  Just
because there are bits of real people in the story doesn't mean
that EVERYTHING in the story is based on reality.  Ellison is a
"fantasist", remember?  As a fantasy/character study, the story
is spellbinding even if the reader doesn't follow Ellison the
Real Person and his escapades.
        -leor

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 OCT 1980 0629-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #121
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 31 Oct 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 121

 Today's Topics: SF Books - Riverworld, SF TV - Connections & Cosmos,
                     TESB - Droid Designations, See you at ICON?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1980 1702-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Farmer's metrics

Has anyone ever asked Farmer why he constantly converts metric and
American measurements in the Riverworld series?  It's aggravating
as all what-not.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1980 0931-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Connections vs. Cosmos debate

I agree that Connections is definitely better and more interesting
than Cosmos, but still, I found many of the analogies Burke (sp?)
made to be ludicrious. I think he's got a good idea, but he just
tried to squeeze a bit too much out of it. Many of his causes and
effects were far from completely reasonable.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1980 18:22:51-PST
From: menlo70!daul at Berkeley
Subject: COSMOS

Cosmos:

Nov 2:    Episode 6.  Travelers Tales
          An imaginary spaceship cruises among the planets, examining
          each.  The scene then shifts to NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab
          in July 1979 where important new knowledge about Jupiter
          arrived almost hourly from the Voyager 2 spacecraft.

Nov 9:    Episode 7.  The Backbone of Night
          This segment asks the question: "What are the stars and
          how far away are they?"  We examine human thought about the
          heavens through history, the ubiquitous constellations, and
          attempts to organize what is seen above us.

Nov 16:   Episode 8.  Travels in Space and Time
          The concept of the light-year is explained, along with
          the relativistic limitations on travel between the stars,
          Doppler shifting, and plans for interstellar spaceships.

Nov 23:   Episode 9.  The Lives of the Stars
          Discussion of molecules, atoms, and subatomic particles
          leads to an examination of stellar interiors.  Different
          stages in stars' development is presented, showing the
          collapse of some into neutron stars and black holes.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1980 1214-PST
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow <GEOFF at SRI-KA>
Subject: C3PO or is it C3P0?

 Here at SRI we have a host on the net called SRI-C3PO (we also
have one called SRI-R2D2, but thats another story..);  Until now
these hosts have been internet gateways (i.e. they haven't had an
NCP in them), but shortly, thru SRI Built Port Expanders (which
allows you to put more than one Internet host on an IMP port,
but only one NCP host tho), we will be bringing up NCP hosts on
both R2D2 and C3PO.  What I need to know, is C3PO "C3PO" (with
the letter "O" after the "P"), or is it C3P0 (with the number
"0" (zero) after the "P")?  It is quite common for people to
pronounce zero as "oh" (such as in phone numbers..); that is
why I'm questioning what it really is...

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who can solve this question
for me.  I suspect it is going to be difficult to tell from books
or documentation, since Zero's and Oh's look so much alike.  Maybe
the only way to solve it is to ask Lucas himself?

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1980 0220-EST
From: Roger Duffey <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: Another question about the names of the SW Droids

To extend Geoff's TTY's query, can anyone fully explain what each
character in the designation means?  We do know that they are not
simply unique serial numbers, since we have heard the characters
talk of "R2 units" among other things.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1980 1150-PST
From: Amy Newell (through WMartin at Office-3)
Subject: Attending Cons

As of now, I'm planning to attend ICON in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, on
at least November 8th, and maybe more, and am also planning on
Con Centric in Columbia, MO 14-16 Novemeber.  If any other net
people will be at these cons and would be interested in getting
together, please send a message to me through WMARTIN@Office-3.

I'm also interested in possible roommates to cut room costs
at either con. Let me know ASAP if anyone or any group is so
inclined.

--Amy Newell

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 NOV 1980 0713-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #122
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Saturday, 1 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 122

Today's Topics: SF Art - Varley's Vision Cover, History - Connections,
                       SF TV - Cosmos & Prisoner, SFL Proposal,
                       TESB - Droid Designations & 2 New Books
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1980 1720-PST
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: ARTIST ON PERSISTENCE OF VISION

My SF book club edition jacket says (on the back flap):
   Jacket illustration by Jim Burns
   Jacket design by Holly McNeeley

------------------------------

Date: 31 October 1980 1341-EST
From: Paul Hilfinger at CMU-10A
Subject: Dubious Connections connection

I agree that at least some of the assertions made on this program
tend to have an elevating effect on my eyebrows.  For example,
on the last segment I saw (dealing with clothing, paper, the
Black Death, and computers, among other things) there was a most
interesting assertion to the effect that the printing press caused
specialization -- that the generation that lived at the time that
printing really became widely used was the last to be equally at
home with carpentry as with weaving or music composition (or words
to this effect).  Now this seems a little counter-intuitive to me.
However, I admit that I am neither a student of intellectual history
nor of anthropology.  Can anyone enlighten me?

        --Paul Hilfinger

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1980 1417-PST
From: Dolata@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Cosmos music

Personally I feel the most redeeming features about Cosmos are the
Pretty Pictures and the music. I have always loved electronic spacey
music. I own some of these records can identify some pieces, however,
I would like to know what all of it is.  The following is a far too
brief list of snippets I have recognized, if you can identify others,
please send me a message (Dolata@SUMEX-AIM), and I'll compile a list
and send it to SF-LOVERS

Artist(s), Album Name, track title

   Vangellis, Albedo 0.39, snippet from song titled Alpha
   Tangerine Dream, Rubycon, snippet from side titled Rubycon
   Klaus Schultz, Stratosphere, I forget the song title
   Edger Froese, Ages, increadably brief bit from Metropolus
   (?)Kraftwerk, Autobahn, chunk from Sequent in C (maybe?)
        
Dan Dolata (Dolata@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1980 09:11 PST
From: JimDay.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Prisoner Game

The November issue of SOFTALK magazine has an advertisement for
The Prisoner, a game inspired by the TV series of the same name.
The game, created by David Mullich for Apple II computers, "puts
you in a nightmare 1984 world whose rulers seek to break you down
by an extensive array of brainwashing techniques, while you are
armed only with your intelligence and sense of individuality. Can
you escape to freedom ...."  The game costs $29.95 plus tax and a
dollar for shipping, and is available from:

                    EDU-WARE SERVICES, INC.
                    22035 Burbank Blvd. #223
                    Woodland Hills, CA 91367

--Jim Day

------------------------------

Date: 29 OCT 1980 1238-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: SFL i.d.

  I strongly support the idea of a button; for one thing, Xerox
transfers only work on t-shirts that are woven of mostly synthetic
materials and such are not nearly as comfortable as cotton t-shirts.
   Possible overlaps: there is a group of Spiderists (worshippers of
the Great Spider) based in Minneapolis fandom (which is so crazy the
inhabitants of Lookout Mountain Canyon seem mundane by comparison);
the motto of MIT East Campus is "Hackito ergo sum" (this is much less
of a problem). Suggestion; if the button is settled on, whoever draws
it should do at 2-3x size, pen-and-ink (no charcoal, pencil, or very
fine lines) and relatively open drawing (i.e., a fair amount of white
space; reduction conceals a variety of flaws but it does tend to make
a drawing seem denser than its original).

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 11/01/80 01:48:31 Re: A DROID BY ANY OTHER NAME...

    Well, it took some digging.

    C3P0 is a droid with a zero for a last character, not a letter.
I had to plow through several books and scripts before I finally
located a non-phonetic reference to Threepio in the middle of the
original tyewritten script for TESB: and by comparing the zeros as
typed to the ohs as typed, it was determined that the spelling uses
the number. Several other books and scripts had zeros and ohs looking
alike, but this original script showed up just enough difference to
be discernable...

    Question Two: It is my understanding that R2's and C3's have
never actually be explained as meaning anything in particular. Of
course, there *is* a story about the origin of R2's name (call
letters?) You haven't heard it? Well, back when Lucas was mixing
the soundtrack for American Graffitti - taking all the separate
reels of sounds and blending them all into one - somebody asked
him to go to the files and pick up Reel 2 - Dialogue 2.  Lucas
goes over to the files and finds the reel labeled R2-D2, and
thinks to himself , "What a cute name: I might could use that
some time."
    It's possibly apocryphal, but quite plausible none-the-less.

    If you asked me, R2 would stand for a certain basic body type or
function, and the D2 would be some more specific subclass.  All the
other R2 units we have seen also have short cylindrical bodys, but
with various different color schemes and top pieces.  There has been
only one labeled example of the C3 class (Threepio himself), although
one other similar droid turned up in the Death Star unnamed.  We have
also see the Bounty hunting 'droid IG-88, and the medical tech 2-1B.

    One final note - when it was mentioned this week that the TESB
script was being published this month at a *cheaper* price, it was
not mentioned that simultaneously 'The Art Of The Empire Strikes
Back' was also being published - and at a *higher* price! ($15.95!
Gasp. Choke.)  It is a fine book, packed with photos, sketches,
drawings, paintings, and no script.  It is a beautifully done
layout, but you may find the price too steep for something which
can be "read" so quickly. Nonetheless, the developmental concept
sketches of early Yodas may almost justify the price.
   The TESB Notebook - which has the script and storyboards, is
as solid but at $5.95. The script follows the finished film almost
exactly.

     Larry

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1980 1530-EST
From: SCRIMSHAW at MIT-XX
Subject: C3P0 or C3P0

Since people in Luke and Leia's Galaxy don't really speak English
and aren't truly familiar with either Hindu-Arabic numbers or the
Phoenician alphabet; it probably doesn't matter whether you make
it 'oh' or 'zero.'
                                        David Scrimshaw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 NOV 1980 0336-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #123
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Sunday, 2 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 123

   Today's Topics: What Happens at a Con - GOH Query, SFL Proposal,
                         TESB - Droid Designations, IBM Humor
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  1 Nov 1980 at 2030-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CON GUEST-OF-HONOR QUERY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Having recently been among those canvassed for GoH nominees for
a future con, it occurred to me that this might make a useful
and discussion-productive topic for SF-L:

 | THE PRESENCE OF WHAT sf AUTHORS WOULD INFLUENCE YOU TO TAKE |
 | IN A CON IT WOULD REQUIRE SOME BOTHER TO MANAGE TO ATTEND?  |

For various reasons, to keep things minimally within the realm
of possibility let's eliminate 5 "Biggies" -- Bradbury, Asimov,
Clarke, Heinlein, & Norton -- from consideration.

You might also want to disqualify but mention writers with whom
you have already had adequate personal contact, however much you
might previously have wanted to meet them.

For a starter, here's my own set...compiled after a thoughtful
scanning of the spines of some 40 linear feet of SF paperbacks
on my shelves.

DISQUALIFIED: Lynn Abbey, Poul Anderson, M.Z. Bradley, Jo Clayton,
A.D. Foster, Lee Killough, Damon Knight, Andy Offutt, John Varley.

There were 4 others simply too interesting to disqualify, despite
previous contact: Ann McCaffrey, Gordon Dickson, Katherine Kurtz,
and Robert Asprin.

My "wish list" ended up with the above 4 and --

     Busby, F.M.                     Laumer, Keith
     Butler, Octavia                 McKillip, Patricia
     Cherryh, C.J.                   Niven, Larry
     Clement, Hal                    Nourse, Alan
     Cooper, Susan                   Reynolds, Mack
     Edmondson, G.C.                 Schmitz, James H.
     Elgin, S.H.                     Stasheff, Christopher
     Forward, Robert                 Tall, Stephen
     Garrett, Randall                Vinge, Joan
     Hogan, James                    Wallace, Ian
     Hoover, H.M.                    Wells, Robert
     Kapp, Colin                     White, James
                    Zelazny, Roger

If you have just simply a list, reply directly to me -- HJJH at
UTEXAS-11 -- and I'll compile those along with any relevant items
appearing on SF-L, and make a comprehensive report.

------------------------------

Date:  1 NOV 1980 1432-EST
From: JNC at MIT-MC (J. Noel Chiappa)
Subject: Motto

     "Hackito Ergo Sum" is the hall motto of the Third East Hall of
East Campus, not the whole dorm; I fear they would be rather put out
to discover that they had been annexed to 3E without warning.  Also,
3E would be greatly put out to discover that you had annexed our
motto; it is part of our hall logo, which is copyrighted.  May I
suggest you try something else?
                        Noel

------------------------------

Date: 1 NOV 1980 0919-PST
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: proposition

     All right, if the spider idea has been used already, how about a
button that says something like the "I (valentine) NY" buttons -- but
ours would say "I (valentine) SF" SF-Lovers, in other words.  And
just for further disguise, a picture of Godzilla eating the Golden
Gate bridge...
     I am also going to do transfers, Xerox ones, for those who want
them.  I'm having one made to test them on various kinds of tees.
     Any feedback on design ideas?  They should have SOMETHING to do
with the subject matter, but remember, the important thing is that
nobody else will be able to get ahold of them except thru SF-L, thus
making them an exclusive I.D.

------------------------------

Date:  1 Nov 1980 at 2133-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ APA-ARPA BADGE DESIGN ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I, too, was dubious about the very likely confusion with Spidey
webs.  And a concentric web with a central BEM would seem to be
too much drawing for a 2-inch button.  Why not something along
that general line, but a little more esoteric, like --
     an at-sign in the center of a SQUARE-meshed NET?

WE know the significance of the @, and our contacts are almost as
readily with each other as they are thru Our Admirable Editor. It
has the further advantage that -- at necessity -- anybody could
make up one of their own, even without a printout device, e.g.,
imagine something like the following with the underscore lines
overprinted on the lines with the vertical bars:

                               | |
                            _________
                             | | | |
                          _____________
                           | | | | | |
                        _______ @ _______
                         | | | | | | | | 
                          _____________
                           | | | | | |
                           ___________
                             | | | |
                            _________
                               | |


------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 11/01/80 14:36:56

Ah, but LARKE is wrong. There are at least 2 more C3 models seen.
First, in the underground base on Hoth, we see a white, ceramic
looking C3 in the "main command center" - and then, in the cloud
city of Bespin C3P0 meets another C3, who appears to say something
in a gutteral language Threepio understands - to which he comments,
"How rude!"  Anyone notice any others?

                                                        Matt

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1980 0705-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3
Subject: Virtual Universe Operating System "announced"

Excerpt from the October 80 issue of IEEE COMPUTER Magazine, where
it was listed as reprinted from COMPUTING, Vol. 8, No. 23, 5 Jun 80,
p. 68.

**********************************************************************

  Someone in IBM  has managed to  preserve their sense  of humor.   My
reporter at the NCC discovered that an anonymous subversive  contrived
to issue a release, on company notepaper, which might be described  as
visionary.
  It reads: "Because so many users have asked for an operating  system
of even greater capability than VM, IBM announces the Virtual Universe
Operating System, OS/VU."
  The release, circulating around the West Coast of the US, goes on to
explain that the individual user  running programs under OS/VU has  an
entire universe of his own, in which  he can set up and take down  his
own programs, data  sets, systems networks,  personnel, and  planetary
systems.
  He need only specify the universe  he desires, and the OS/VU  system
generation program, IEHGOD, does the rest.
  The release  exlains that  in conjunction  with OS/VU,  all  systems
utilities have been replaced by one program, IEHPROPHET, which resides
in SYSI MESSIAH.
  In true paternalist  style, the release  claims that: "IBM,  through
it's wholly-owned  subsidiary,  the United  States,  is working  on  a
program to upgrade the speed of light."
  This piece of research appears to be intended to reduce the overhead
of extraterrestrial and metadimensional paging.
  Concluding with the  giant's future plans,  the release claims  that
research is  underway  to  develop an  even  more  pewerful  operating
system, designated Virtual Reality.
  Presumably IBM itself will "refuse  to speculate on products  before
they are announced" as usual.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 NOV 1980 0623-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #124
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Monday, 3 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:
       SF Books - BAD Series, Space - SPS, History - Connections,
   Future - WORLDnet, Campaign '80 - An Interview with Yoda, IBM Humor
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 02 NOV 1980 1950-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: David Rossien's crud query

    I have asked a friend with a wide knowledge of pulp material and
he said he'd never come across the anecdote Robinson describes and
hasn't the vaguest idea who it refers to.  If someone will volunteer
to remind me about this near Boskone I'll ask Spider where he heard
the story.

------------------------------

Date: 15 OCT 1980 1454-EDT
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: solar power

  I have just read an interesting article (CHEMICAL & ENGINEERING
NEWS, October 6, p. 37) listing a number of advances in photovoltaic
technology including the recent cracking of the 10% efficiency
barrier. The figures in general look very good, especially in terms
of the possibility for scaling up the process and the estimated costs.
  This brings up a recent question that I don't recall being answered:
realistically, what are the economics of a solar-powered satellite
compared with those of a ground-based plant, given such factors as:
   -- % of down time due to [night]
   -- cost of getting the materials up to a synchronous orbit
   -- efficiency above and below the atmosphere, including
      losses in the microwave beam
  I am somewhat less pessimistic about ground-based photovoltaic power
than I have been, particularly considering that even an immense solar
power "farm" would take up less space than is currently expected to
be ruined by the MX missile project.  I also admit to a lingering
affection for the idea of giant solar screens in space (maybe a hang-
over from my first Tom Swift Jr. (& his Repellatron Ray (?) --- the
one where he adds huge solar power array "sails" to his space station
to get enough power to supply an energy-to-matter converter)) --- I
just don't like the cost picture the Space Shuttle is building up.

------------------------------

Date:    2 Nov 1980 2322-EST
From:    KAMESH.RAMAKRISHNA at CMU-10A 
Subject: The following message

I just sent a long message, and I realized that I did not place it
in the context of the question I wished to raise. Since HUMAN-NETS
discusses this kind of stuff a lot and SF-LOVERS tend more towards
fantasy than reality, I may well be directing the message to the
wrong group. In any case, it is a response Paul Hilfinger's question
and that was raised in SF-LOVERS.

The question is: What is the real possibility that this technology -
communication nets with millions of people on them - will come in
our lifetime and what effect will it have on it. My own beliefs tend
towards looking for indications in the economy or at system failure
modes to see a way for this to become commonly used.  The result is
that I am largely pessimistic that it will come, or that if something
did come along, it wouldn't be a crock.

Kamesh

------------------------------

Date:    2 Nov 1980 2315-EST
From:    KAMESH.RAMAKRISHNA at CMU-10A 
Subject: Connections and networks

A discussion  occasioned by  Paul  Hilfinger's comment  that  printing
presses  caused   specialization   --   an   analogy   with   computer
communication nets.

                           ****************

Subject:  Printing presses cause specialization

Paul, Isn't it obvious?  The development of the printing press  caused
a boom in the paper industry, thus increasing the rate of exploitation
of wood and forestry resources.  Before a rational system of organized
exploitation could  be evolved,  the price  of "raw  wood", the  basic
input to the carpentry industry had  shot up.  The printing press  had
only marginal effects  on other  industry, so that  many marginal  and
near-marginal carpenters found that they could no longer pursue  their
trade.  Only the specialists remained.

The surplus carpenters  (and there  were many), found  their way  into
music, and the other artistic enterprises.  After a short period  when
the presence of  these newcomers resulted  in a dramatic  drop in  the
average quality of  a musicians life,  the "bad money  drives out  the
good" phenomenon  resulted  in professional  musicians  leaving  their
profession, if  not their  avocation, in  droves.  This  period  (also
termed the baroque, I believe), was soon (a century or so) followed by
massive public rejection of  the "new music"  created by those  former
hack-saw wielders.  The ultimate result of this massive social zig-zag
was the development of specialization in music.

You may  wonder what  happened  to the  musicians?   The tale  is  not
pretty,  but  Connections  just  lifted  the  edge  of  Pandora's  box
(incidentally,  a  proposed  but  rejected  name  for  Doug   Jensen's
co-operating system).   The entire  phenomenon of  specialization  and
professionalism in post-Renaissance Western  culture can be traced  to
the printing press.  In keeping with the analogy, there is still  hope
left.  You guessed it, the computer network revolution.  After we have
accomplished our task, the hackers can go back to carpentry.

Cheers, Kamesh

                           ****************

Kamesh,

A very elegant theory.  Unfortunately, the main ingredient of paper in
those days was discarded linen.

--Paul

                           ****************

Paul,

Discarded linen!!  That would explain the dramatic degeneration in the
sartorial art as the proliferating  and desperate printers ranged  far
and wide in  their search  for old linen.   Oftentimes, the  printer's
agent would  arrange the  kidnappings  of people  (probably  depressed
carpenters making  their rounds)  off the  street for  the clothes  on
their back.  This would also  account for the large-scale exodus  from
the  villages  into  the   cities  and  thence   to  the  New   World.
Undoubtedly, the  discovery that  pine wood  was excellent  for  paper
manufacture was  discovered here  by  immigrants concerned  about  the
possibility that the European technique for harvesting discarded linen
would make its way across the Atlantic.

Also, are  you  sure about  this  business of  discarded  linen.   The
quantity of genuinely "discarded linen" would seem very small compared
to the input  requirements of the  exploding industry.  Just  consider
the number of Bibles that were  printed, the number of revisions  that
were being generated daily by reformers and counter-reformers, and the
requirement that  the industry  support large  numbers of  out-of-work
carpenters, violinists and other sawyers (or should it be seers?).

              ********** End of comic relief **********

        What does this have to do with the computer revolution
             that we HAVE been awaiting so breathlessly?

On a more serious level, I would guess that in the post-Gutenberg era,
being also post-America, and the initial flush of European colonialism
and emigration, specialization in certain trades was the last gasp  of
a dying guild  system left over  from feudalist days.   Specialization
was a mechanism to  keep certain jobs safe  and within the control  of
the older  aristocracy.  An  associated phenomenon  would be  that  of
aristocratic  patronage,   used  as   a  mechanism   for   maintaining
specialization  and  for   breaking  into  existing   specializations.
Increased specialization would also support increased emigration, thus
providing cheaper labour in  the new colonies.   Thus, one would  also
find that the new central authorities  (a king, no longer first  among
peers)  would  promote  specialization  --  the  foreign  lands   were
typically crown-controlled and were a source of power for the king  as
against his lords.

In England, for example,  the rise of  a legal profession  (advocates,
solicitors, and barristors) was a  creation of crown-courts that  took
over judging from local  lords.  (I remember reading  that one of  the
reasons why Henry  the Nth initiated  this reform was  that fines  and
other court  levies accumulated  to the  judge; and  Henry needed  the
money!)

I think there are good precedents and analysis that indicate that many
of the phenomena in early capitalist  Europe were a result of  primary
economic and production conditions and  not from ephemera such as  the
development  of  printing  techology.   The  analogy  to  the  current
"computer revolution" is of some  interest.  I think that the  current
pop-computer revolution will be driven  more by concerns about  energy
costs, raw material resources and access to jobs than by the  hobbyist
market, or  even by  the public-network  market.  The  public  network
systems will, I  think, go  ineluctably (i.e.  like Ulysses  returning
from one  disaster)  down the  centralized  advertising-system  route.
(Except for Prestel which being controlled by the British Post  Office
will generate the philately of the next century.)

It would  appear that  the  calculator phenomenon  of five  years  ago
belies my claim.  I do  not think so.  I  claim that between 1974  and
1979 almost any novelty, priced right, would have succeeded in the  US
market.  And given the fast positive feedback potential represented by
this market and the  calculator industry, it is  no surprise that  the
calculator industry swamped all competitors so dramatically.

I back  my claim  with reference  to articles  that have  appeared  in
recent NY Times, Atlantic, etc.,  that indicate that between 1974  and
1979 consumer  buying was  increasing rapidly,  probably a  result  of
Federal government policies that  subsidized petroleum purchases  from
abroad and kept the price of gasoline low, from which I infer that  it
was beneficial to  buy and  sell, rather  than save  or invest.   This
would explain why the American public did not make a beeline for small
cars a few  years back  when the coming  crisis was  visible, but  are
doing so now.  Going further afield, this would explain the phenomenon
of diminishing capital investment in  the past few years,  diminishing
"labour productivity", the current automobile industry crash, and  the
current office automation boom.

None of this suggests that we  are heading into a period of  increased
specialization.  I suggest  that the  same holds  for bs  explanations
about the  role  of  printing in  increased  specialization  in  16-th
century Europe.

(At 7000+  characters this  makes it  1/3rd the  typical message.   If
people are interested I will continue in smaller chunks.  If I  manage
to get my references organized, I can probably provide a few  pointers
to real-life studies as opposed to flames about the background  behind
specific technological developments in the past.)

------------------------------

Date:  2 Nov 1980 2344-EST
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Yoda for president 

The Dallas chApter of the Yoda for president campaign, wants to thank
All those who have lent us their support.  With the cooperation of
Imperial communications we Are happy to make public the following
interview with our candidate from his campAign headquarters on
Dagobah:

I: I have with me tonight the pcesidential candidate for the Jedi
   party, Mr. Yoda.  He has consented to answer some questions for
   me tonight.  Mr. Candidate, would you care to comment on your
   competition? What do you think of governor Reagan?
Y: HE IS OLD, YES, TOO OLD TO BEGIN THE TRAINING.
I: And President Carter?
Y: TOLD YOU I DID, RECKLESS IS HE. NOW MATTERS ARE WORSE.
I: Well what about John Anderson?
Y: HMMM, WILL HE FINISH WHAT HE BEGINS?
I: Onto the issues: What about Iran? Should we intervene militarily?
Y: A JEDI USES THE FORCE FOR KNOWLEDGE AND DEFENSE. NEVER FOR ATTACK.
I: What about inflation and unemployment?
Y: STOPPED THEY MUST BE. ON THAT ALL DEPENDS.
I: In the past you have supported the SALT I treaty. If you were
   president what would you say to Brezhnev to help disarmament?
Y: AWAY PUT YOUR WEAPONS. I MEAN YOU NO HARM. WARS NOT MAKE ONE GREAT.
I: And to the other countries of the world?
Y: YOUR WEAPONS, YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM.
I: Who will be your chief advisor?
Y: MY OWN COUNCIL WILL I KEEP.
I: Your opponents say you have no chance of beating them.
   Do you reAlly intend to try?
Y: NO. TRY NOT. DO. OR DO NOT. THERE IS NO TRY.
I: Thank you Mr. Candidate. Your words will be an inspiration
   to all of us looking for a candidate for whom we can vote.
Y: LOOKING? FOUND SOMEONE YOU HAVE I WOULD SAY, HMMM? 
I: Uhmm, err, thank you Mr. Candidate.

     *************************************************************

                        VOTE YODA IN 1980

                       THERE IS NO OTHER!!

     *************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:  2 NOV 1980 0830-EST
From: MJL at MIT-MC (Matthew Jody Lecin)
Subject: Virtual Universe Operating System "announced"

Small correction.  It happened to be the SYS1.GODLIB - as ANY 370
hacker should recognize...

                                                        Matt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 NOV 1980 0702-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #125
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 4 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:
   SF TV - Twilight Zone Special, What Happens at a Con - GoH Query,
      TESB - Droid Designations, IBM Humor - Product Announcement
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1980 11:51 PST
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Twilight Zone Special, San Francisco Bay Area

No matter who wins the election Tuesday, Northern Californians can
drown their sorrows afterwards by watching the Twilight Zone Special
at 11 p.m. on KBHK-TV, ch. 44. The advertisements claim the show will
contain the best scenes from the series, as well as clips from shows
featuring famous actors.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Nov 1980 at 0226-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CON GoH REMINDER ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   THE PRESENCE OF WHAT sf AUTHORS WOULD INFLUENCE YOU TO TAKE  
   IN A CON IT WOULD REQUIRE SOME BOTHER TO MANAGE TO ATTEND?   

Reply to-- HJJH at UTEXAS-11 

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 11/02/80 22:53:10 Re:  C3 Bingo

I remember that in SW:ANH (the '76 one) there was a white metal 'droid
that lurched down the corridor and took a left behind R2-D2 and C3-P0
during the opening Imperial takeover of the Rebel Blockade Runner.


                        Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Date:  3 Nov 1980 1716-PST
From: Sumex BBOARD and SCHOEN via <Dolata at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: Who says IBM doesn't make good operating systems???

===  ======   ===      ===
 =    =    =   ===    ===
 =    =====    ====  ====
 =    =    =   ==  ==  ==
===  ======   ===      ===
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Data Processing Division                        Date: January 30, 1979

                        PROGRAMMING ANNOUNCEMENT

New Operating System

Because so  many users  have asked  for an  operating system  of  even
greater  capability  than  VM,  IBM  announces  the  Virtual  Universe
Operating System - OS/VU.

Running under OS/VU, the individual user appears to have not merely  a
machine of his own, but an entire universe of his own, in which he can
set up and take  down his own programs,  data sets, systems  networks,
personnel, and planetary systems.  He  need only specify the  universe
he desires, and the OS/VU system generation program (IEHGOD) does  the
rest.  This program will reside in SYS1.GODLIB.  The minimum time  for
this function  is  6  days  of  activity and  1  day  of  review.   In
conjunction with OS/VU, all system utilities have been replaced by one
program (IEHPROPHET) which will reside in SYS1.MESSIAH.  This  program
has no parms or control cards as it knows what you want to do when  it
is executed.

Naturally,  the  user   must  have  attained   a  certain  degree   of
sophistication  in  the   data  processing  field   if  an   efficient
utilization  of  OS/VU   is  to  be   achieved.   Frequent  calls   to
non-resident galaxies, for instance, can lead to unexpected delays  in
the execution  of  a  job.  Although  IBM,  through  its  wholly-owned
subsidiary, The United States, is working on a program to upgrade  the
speed of light and  thus reduce the  overhead of extraterrestrial  and
metadimensional paging, users must be careful for the present to  stay
within the laws  of physics.  IBM  must charge an  additional fee  for
violations.

OS/VU will run on  any IBM x0xx equipped  with Extended WARP  Feature.
Rental is twenty million dollars per cpu/nanosecond.

Microcode assist will be available for all odd-numbered processors  to
allow the use of non-contiguous CPU clock times.  This feature will be
a prerequisite  for  the  implementation  of  the  Rutgers  University
virtual date package.

Users should be aware that IBM  plans to migrate all existing  systems
and hardware to OS/VU as soon as our engineers effect one output  that
is (conceptually) error-free.  This will give us a base to develop  an
even more  powerful operating  system,  target date  2001,  designated
"Virtual Reality".  OS/VR is planned to enable the user to migrate  to
totally  unreal  universes.   To  aid  the  user  in  identifying  the
difference between  "Virtual  Reality"  and  "Real  Reality",  a  file
containing a  linear  arrangement  of multisensory  total  records  of
successive moments  of now  will  be established.   Its name  will  be
SYS1.est.


For more information, contact your IBM data processing representative.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 NOV 1980 0632-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #126
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 5 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:
                  Population - Technology/Birth Rate,
  Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox, What happens at a Con? - GoH Query,
              SFL Proposal, Campaign '80 - Anderson/Yoda
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 04 NOV 1980 1308-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: population

   Anent the discussion of disasters this past summer, the latest
issue of SCIENCE '80 discusses research challenging the traditional
assumption that an increase in the technology available to a society
will drive down the birth rate.  Basically, someone analyzed the
various statistics describing populations in Western Europe and
found that this belief was an example of the "following this, there-
fore because of this" fallacy; several factors were implicated, and
many of them would not be applicable to currently developing nations.

------------------------------

Date:  5 November 1980 01:30 est
From:  JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics
Subject:  I've returned!

Hello, world. This is the voice of Amherst computing posing the
question, is there life after using a Cyber?  Anyways, I think I know
how to make time travel work. The problem with time travel if that the
user always ends up with a 'grandfather paradox', that is, he kills
his own grandpa, or changes the future he has observed.  Well, suppose
you can travel anywhere a receiver is set up. The first thing that is
apparent is that you are limited to the future. Let us assume further
that there is an overhead required to get you into the warp, an energy
cost. In addition, the user must pump enough energy when returning to
the past to change all the things needed so that the universe will
still end up the same way it was observed by the traveler.  In other
words, if you take back a stone from the future, the energy involved
in returning will be that of accounting for the extra mass of the rock
that wasn't there before, as well as the energy need to keep the future
the same with a rock that wasn't in the original scenario. In addition,
if you observed too much, the energy required to keep the future the
same with this preknowlage may be too great for you to return, and
so you would be stuck in the future!  Note that while this is not a
'Try to Change the Past' plot, that may be the cheapest way for the
universe to solve the problem. Well, I'm not going to explain any more
due to the fact that I am using an Adds 580 and on Multics, that means
having to use a \ for shifting. As to the 'recent' IBM announcement,
I saw a copy of that on the 5th floor of AI nearly 6 months ago.
Speaking of computers, anyone know when Zork for the (dare I say
it) Trash-80 will be released?

                                Hackito ergo sum,
                                James Turner

Note: I picked that up from a button at Boskon, finders keepers...

------------------------------

Date:  4 Nov 1980 at 1953-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SORRY ABOUT THAT! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Someone has sent me a query as to why I disqualified certain writers
from my personal GoH wish-list.  I apologise for not making it clear
-- these were ones I had already met and had no need for additional
interaction with.  It would be one thing to omit Varley from one's
wish-list because you'd never had an inclination to talk to him; it
is another to omit him because he HAS already heard my plea to "let
us have our beloved Earth BACK!" in his universe.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1980 11:48 PST
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF-Lovers ID

You can buy an "I Love SF" button/T-shirt anywhere in San Francisco,
so I don't think that particular logo would be very distinctive.

How about a BEM peering over the top of a CRT?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1980 09:49 PST
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF-Lovers LOGO

Yes votes: I like both the "I <valentine> SF" and the "@ in a square
net" ideas.  The former captures the SF-Lovers idea, and the latter
the Arpa-net idea. Since both are essential attributes of our fanzine,
maybe they can be combined by using the "I love SF" as a caption to
the net.

No votes: Any picture with a computer terminal or Godzilla would be
too busy, especially for use on a button.  Logo designs should be
clean and simple.  Any caption about "hacking" is inappropriate,
since hacking or whatever else we SF-Lovers do on the net is very
peripheral to our SF-Lovers activity.  It's NOT a Computer Club.

        /Teri 

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1980 0207-PST (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: SF-LOVERS identity buttons

Gee whiz people, are we getting a bit esoteric with some of these
designs?  Why not say it like it is?  Nobody is going to read in
mysterious computer networks!  They will only see what they wish
to see...

How about something simple along the lines of:

                FROM: SF-LOVERS

in a nice Gothic font?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 2 November 1980 18:40-EST
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject:  buttons

I would prefer if the button didn't actually have any written words,
just some picture.  The problem with buttons which say something is
people always ask, and you always have to explain...

------------------------------

Date:  4 NOV 1980 2228-PST
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: Tee shirts and buttons (alive, alive oh...)

     Because of the limited space on a button, I have decided to
merely have a logo, different from the tee shirt, with the logo I
decide I will be the most effective. It will probably be something
simple, with the letters SF-L or something, that you can explain
away as you see fit. Or it could say "SF Lover" which is a reasonable
sort of thing to see at a con, and superimposed on a net.
     The tee shirts may be voted on.  Here are some candidates.

1. Your basic well-endowed woman and muscular man, standing close
   together, wearing futuristic clothing, with an S on the woman
   and an F on the man, and underneath, the caption "Lovers"
2. Same as above, but the woman has green skin and the man an
   extra set of muscular arms.
3. A BEM shyly smooching a sensuous Latino, caption "SF Lovers".
4. A BEM at a TTY, no caption.
5. A stereotyped computer-whiz type dude, (acne, horn-rims, etc)
   cuddling his TTY in a Norman Rockwellian-type heart background.

     Send in your vote, folks, and remember, in this election, your
vote COULD make all the difference!  You may include write-in ideas,
and we'll have a run-off vote including them. 

                                        Huzza!
                                        Rodof

------------------------------

Date:  5 November 1980 00:46 est
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS  at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Yoda for President

According to the New York Times he was Anderson's original choice
for VP.  The August 3rd issue had an amusing article on this.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 NOV 1980 0645-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #127
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Thursday, 6 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:            SF Books - Eight Worlds Series,
               Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox, MicroZork, SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  6 Nov 1980 0001-EST
From: G.NESSUS at MIT-EE
Subject: Varley's universe and time travel

     Let us have our beloved Earth back???  And resentence the
dolphins (who are considered more sentient than Humans in Varley's
universe) to be slaughtered for the sake of StarKist Tuna.  There
is good reason why we were thrown off.

     And about James Turner's method of time travel: It doesn't
solve the 'Grandfather Paradox.'  For example, you could go into
the future only to be killed by your own grandson (the 'Grandson
Paradox'), or perhaps a clearer example, once you arrived in the
future, someone could steal your time machine and go back in time
to kill his grandfather.

                                 --Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1980 1224-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: time travel

In response to JTurner's idea.  Interesting, unfortunately you
haven't eliminated travel to the past.  At some point in time, call
it T, someone invents the receiver; at any point in time after T,
perhaps T+delta, it is now possible to travel to time T which is
in the past. Why is it possible to travel to the past you ask? Well
its because there is a receiver there. If your grandfather invented
the receiver then you could use his receiver to get to the past to
kill him.  Oh well.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1980 (Wednesday) 1038-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: Time travel -- there is no paradox!

There are several ways of thinking about time travel that permit us to
avoid paradox altogether.

1- The Zelazny paradigm of branches in the network is most attractive.
   Whenever anyone transmigrates (coin your own words!) there are a
   series of "side-paths" created in the time highway. Thus there is
   no interference with current "reality" since it is simply one of
   many paths.  Martin Gardner wrote about this, I think, in Scien-
   tific American many years ago showing that there are, in theory,
   an infinite number of paths created whenever ANY single change is
   made in history. I do not recall the way he argued that point.
   (Implicit query!)

2- (My personal favorite) Time travel to the past simply puts
   the traveler into a different future (one that presumably
   "looks like" the past). Whether this effect is localized to
   the traveler or whether the entire universe gets switched
   around is to be determined empirically I think. Again sighting
   Scientific American on reversal of time (not quite as long ago)
   it is possible (although statistically unlikely) that the proper
   physics would occur to make time APPEAR to be going in reverse
   (they used the example of fumes escaping from a perfume jar
   and showing how certain sequences of collisions might bring
   the fumes back to the jar in liquid form).  It is this type of
   "changing the current world to look like a shifted time" that is
   most attractive to me. (It would also be one hell of a CPU hog).

-= Jeff (Abrqx) Shrager
   A new reader/user

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1980 1538-EST
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: James Turner Zork Query

     In response to James Turner's question asking when Zork will be
available on TRS-80s: "Usually reliable sources" have told me that it
should be out in computer stores by Thanksgiving.  The Apple version
should be out by Christmas. A new PDP-11 version is already available.

                                Michael Dornbrook

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1980 1207-EST
From: Jon Solomon <Solomon at RUTGERS>
Subject: logo for CON's, etc.

     I realize this has nothing to do with SF, but it is a sure fire
method to recognise someone who has been on ITS (which I would assume
everyone on this list has done at least ONCE!). I was going to have a
tee shirt made up with this on it so when I went into the AI lab at
MIT (those few times I visit up there), no one would doubt who I was
and I would always get let in the door. Here is, for your approval,
my vote for identifier (substitute your login name in its place)

For The Front:
 
                                                      $$$
JJJJJJJJJJJJJ    SSSSSS       OOOOOO     LLL          $$$    UUU      UUU
     JJJ      SSS      SSS OOO      OOO  LLL       $$$   $$$ UUU      UUU
     JJJ      SSS      SSS OOO      OOO  LLL       $$$   $$$ UUU      UUU
     JJJ      SSS          OOO      OOO  LLL       $$$       UUU      UUU
     JJJ         SSSSSS    OOO      OOO  LLL          $$$    UUU      UUU
     JJJ               SSS OOO      OOO  LLL          $$$    UUU      UUU
     JJJ      SSS      SSS OOO      OOO  LLL             $$$ UUU      UUU
JJJ  JJJ      SSS      SSS OOO      OOO  LLL       $$$   $$$ UUU      UUU
  JJJ            SSSSSS       OOOOOO     LLLLLLLLL    $$$       UUUUUU
                                                      $$$

And The Back:

      $$$          $$$
      $$$          $$$       UUU      UUU
   $$$   $$$    $$$   $$$    UUU      UUU
   $$$   $$$    $$$   $$$    UUU      UUU
   $$$          $$$          UUU      UUU
      $$$          $$$       UUU      UUU
         $$$          $$$    UUU      UUU
   $$$   $$$    $$$   $$$    UUU      UUU
   $$$   $$$    $$$   $$$    UUU      UUU
      $$$          $$$          UUUUUU
      $$$          $$$



--- well you get the idea.                              /JSol

------------------------------

APPLE@MIT-MC 11/05/80 20:48:43 Re: Deviant BEM's?

     One of RODOF's choices for the SF-LOVERS' T-shirt was "A BEM
smooching a sensuous Latino ..."  Well, in addition to being bug-
eyed, this BEM had some interesting habits, too.  A "latino" is a
MALE latin person.  A female one would be a "latina."  (That's
assuming, of course, that the adjective "sensous" applies to women
only.)  !Vivan los hispanoparlantes!

                                - hasta la proxima vez ...
                                        Jim Cox

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 NOV 1980 0657-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #128
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Friday, 7 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 128

     Today's Topics:          "5000 Fingers" in Boston,
                     SFL Proposal, Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 1980 1740-EST
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Free movie

"The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T." came up a while ago in SFL; Boston-area
SFL may be interested to know that there will be two free showings
of the film: Wednesday 12 November at 3:30 PM at the Waban Branch
Library, and Thursday 13 November at 3 PM at the Nonantum Branch
Library.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1980 0220-EST
From: The Moderator
Subject: Specism/Sexism - On the subject of deviant BEMs

The question is:

   Why does APPLE assume that BEM's are male? 
                                   --  Robert W. Kerns <RWK at MIT-MC>

   Who said it was a male BEM?        -- Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>

   Waydaminit!  Whos said BEMs had to be male?  Maybe BEMs are female
   and get a charge out of male humans of Latin descent.
                                      -- Brian Lloyd <Lloyd at MIT-AI>

   Presumably a female [or just non-male] BEM...
                                             -- Pete <PKaiser at BBND>

------------------------------

APPLE@MIT-MC 11/07/80 01:15:09 Re: What are little BEMs made of?

     RWK asked why I assumed that BEMs are male.  Well, if you look
closely at my message, you'll see that I based my conclusion on the
reasonable premise that 'sensuous' only applies to women. Therefore,
a 'sensuous latino' is incorrect.  If you think that sensuous can be
applied to men, then, of course, there's nothing to argue about.

     However, now that I think about it, BEMs must be male. Since
most of them keep chasing after human women, there must be great
shortage of females of their own species.  Why, there's nothing
in the world like a juicy Fay Wray type to really set a healthy,
green-blooded BEM's heart to beating.  Many human beings seem to
disapprove of this, however.  As Mr. Wray, Sr. said, "BEMs are
okay, I guess, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one."

                                hasta la proxima vez,

                                        Jim Cox

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1980 0220-EST
From: Roger Duffey <Duffey at MIT-AI>
Subject: Specism/Sexism - On the subject of deviant BEMs

But for that matter, why is everyone assuming that BEMs are either
male OR female?

------------------------------

CSTACY@MIT-AI 11/06/80 15:42:54 Re: SFL Tee Shirts

Being the proud owner of a CSTACY$U / $$U T shirt, I disagree with
Jon Solomon's idea of using this for an SF-LOVERS logo. Many of the
people on the list have NOT been on ITS, and probably wonder what
we are talking about. Moreover, the alt-you T shirt has nothing
to do with science fiction.  And above all: this is an ARPAnet
discussion group -- the key word is NETWORK -- not an ITS group.

The logo should somehow combine SF and communication via network.

Cheers,
Chriodels, it discusses Hogan's "Thrice Upon A Time"
and gives away a significant element of the plot. People who are not
familiar with this novel may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 11/06/80 21:37:58  Re: time travel

The most well thought out model of time-travel I have ever seen in a
novel was in Hogan's "Thrice upon a time". This book ascribes to the
"reset" theory of world-lines; if you send a message into the past
(no matter travels cross-time in this book but it doesn't seem to be
ruled out) that says "kill me, I am about to do something very rude
in the present, and I should really be stopped", then the people back
then get to act on the information while you wait in the present, with
your teeth clenched, for the effects of your message to ripple forward
and absolve (dissolve?) you.

Time travels at several rates herein.  From your point of view you are
waiting for the world-line to readjust (a somewhat faster process than
normal forward running since only the new ripples have to be worked
in).  From the point of view of your cohorts in the past, they are
living just like they normally would.

What bothered me about this model is that it made actions free, with
no consequences. For example, X makes a boo-boo that will ultimately
destroy the world, and sends a message into the past to warn the
earlier version of X not to make that mistake.  It turns the whole
universe into a big experiment.  You don't like the results, you
change it before it happened.  (Imagine the amusement parks.  You
can become "torturer for a day" and can even tell yourself about
all the fun you had before that version of you gets erased and
the normal reality gets reinstated.)

I would add the following wrinkle: Rather than have realities
disappear, let them stay around. What I am getting at is a bubble
theory of reality. There is a time-line (call it supertime) which
numbers all possible moments in the universe. Life progresses from
one number to the next just as we are used to.  If you go back in
time from moment 55 to moment 23 and kill your grandmother, great.
She's dead, and a bubble starts moving up from 23 in which a you
is never born.  Meanwhile, up at time 55, your home reality is
happily progressing, complete with a confused and guilty you in
it who has preformed this sickening deed and has returned to find
the same old grind.  You don't have her inheritance. In fact, the
old bag is still hopping around. (The effects don't propagate that
way.)

This doesn't mean that one bubble can't effect another. You can
communicate with the future (or the past) by just setting your
transmitter to T+22,000 (or to T-22,000).  For as long as you
talk, the same guy will be at the other end of the line.

One curious thing about this model is that past becomes a resource
which is constantly consumed. The reason is that whenever a bubble
gets started, it gradually overwrites each successive moment of
super-time.  Once overwritten, their old contents are gone, and
your precious past has been consumed as though in a fire.

Maybe I should write to Hogan about a new book.  Then again, is
he on the net?

        Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 NOV 1980 0809-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #129
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Saturday, 8 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:
       SF Books - Strange Wine, Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox,
              Technology - Superconductors, SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov. 1980 11:32 am PST (Friday)
From: AWells.PA at PARC-MAXC (via Hamilton.PA at PARC-MAXC)
Subject: Television, Reading, and Harlan Ellison

I was reading a book by the name of 'Strange Wine' by Harlan Ellison
recently. The book is very good, but that is not what I want to talk
about. He has an introduction titled "Revealed at Last!  What Killed
the Dinosaurs!  And You Don't Look So Terrific Yourself."  I would
like to tell you a few things from this introduction.

   According to an HEW study, only 8% of the American population buy
   books.  Furthermore, only 2% buy more than one book per year.

   Harlan once said, in front of a university audience, that he had
   thought up the words that Spock had said in a Star-Trek episode.
   A student jumped to his feet, with tears in his eyes, screaming
   that Harlan was a liar.

   The average American watches between 3-8 hours of TV PER DAY. In
   some of the lectures he gives at Universities, Harlan found this
   to be true in University audiences as well.

   Harlan tells about a friend of his who is a High School media
   teacher.  She had students who would not read books because they
   were 'not real'. TV was considered real.  She had normal 17 year
   old students who could not tell the difference between a TV
   dramatization and real life.  She found that if she turned a TV
   monitor on in an unruly classroom, WITH NOTHING BUT SNOW ON THE
   SCREEN, that the entire class would quiet down and watch the
   screen.

   He tells about an experiment where a monitor was set up one one
   side of a lecture hall and the lecturer stood on the other. The
   monitor carried a picture of the lecturer. Everyone watched the
   monitor.

   He tells about a case where a mother was being raped and her 7
   year old child walked in. The rapist told the child to go watch
   TV.  The child watched TV for 6 hours while his mother screamed
   repeatedly.

I highly suggest reading the book, or at least the introduction.
Perhaps the 'glass teat' is worse than we think.

                                        Allen

------------------------------

Date:  6 Nov 1980 0923-PST
From: Moock@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: scientific american article

     I must have missed a vital digest. A couple of people have cited
a Scientific American article about time travel.  Could someone send
me the reference for it?

                                  ----- T. Moock -----

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 1980 0220-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject: Scientific American article on Time Travel

In [SFL V2 #127], Jeff Shrager briefly mentioned a Scientific American
article that discussed the time travel.  The short article, entitled
"On the Contradictions of Time Travel", was the main topic in Martin
Gardner's Mathematical Games column for the May 1974 issue. See pages
120-123.

This article should be of special interest to SF-LOVERS because it is
a thumbnail sketch of the history of "time travel" theories in science
fiction, philosophy, and physics. Here are some of the more interesting
citations included in the article:

  1. The first story about a time machine was not Well's THE TIME
     MACHINE, but rather "The Clock That Went Backward" by Edward
     Page Mitchell.  It was published anonymously in 1881.

  2. Seven years later, Wells wrote the first version of the story we
     know as THE TIME MACHINE, an inept novella entitled "The Chronic
     Astronauts".  The revised version, entitled "The Time Traveller's
     Story", first appeared in 1894.

  3. David R. Daniels first used infinitely branching worldlines to
     avoid time travel paradoxes in the story "Branches of Time",
     published in a 1934 issue of WONDER STORIES.

  4. A metacosmos containing infinitely branching worldlines has been
     seriously proposed in "'Relative State' Formulation of Quantum
     Mechanics", the PhD thesis of Hugh Everett III.  (See REVIEWS OF
     MODERN PHYSICS, V29, July 1957, p. 454-62.) Here each branch is
     formed from a permissible combination of quantum events.

  5. In "It Ain't Necessarily So" (see THE JOURNAL OF PHILOSOPHY, V59,
     25 October 1962, pp. 658-71) Hillary Putnam's argues that looping
     worldlines do not have to be contradictory.

  6. The cited story Jeff referred to which assumes "If there are
     infinite universes, then all possible combinations must exist.
     Then, somewhere, everything must be true." is Fredric Brown's
     "What Mad Universe".  Many authors have wrung many different
     variations on that assumption of course.

							Cheers,
							   Roger

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 1980 10:59 PST
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Room Temp. Superconductivity

The October 9 issue of ELECTRONICS magazine has an article announcing
the discovery of a substance (titanium boride or titanium bromide,
the article isn't clear on that) which, when structurally deformed in
some manner, becomes superconducting at room temperature.  This is an
immensely important discovery, and the researcher who discovered it
claims the substance is easy to make.  This could solve our energy
problems, information problems, etc.

I have a transcription of the article on-line.  Message me as
Reed.ES@PARC-MAXC if you want a copy.

        --      Larry   --

------------------------------

Date:  7 Nov 1980 1531-PST
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF
Subject: Re: logo for SFLs

If the logo should combine SF and communication, how about a
postage stamp design with a (crude) picture of, say, Saturn on
it?

Bleepity, Martin <Feather at USC-ISIB>

P.S.  Any other BEM's out there who share my opinion about
      how awful humans' piggy little eyes look...?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1980 09:23 PST
From: JimDay.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Specism/Sexism - On the subject of deviant BEMs

Alien creatures don't have to be male (some of them have several sexes
-- does anyone happen to know the maximum number of sexes for a single
species in published SF?).  But, as everyone knows, a female BEM is a
FEM.

--Jim Day

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1980 09:33 PST
From: HOFFMAN at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Heterosexism and 'deviant' BEMs

Who said it had to be heterosexual?  For that matter, who said it
had to be sexual? -- Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date:  7 November 1980 1223-EST (Friday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A

Duh, What's an "ALTMODE"?  

Since, I believe, 1967, the character whose octal bit pattern is 33
has been called "escape". I know of no keyboards around except some
obsolete "Stanford" kludges which have any keys labelled "altmode",
although I suspect the compulsion to live in the past must be over-
whelming for some people.  SF-LOVERS, of all people, should live
somewhat in the future.
                                        joe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 NOV 1980 1147-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #130
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Sunday, 9 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:
                    Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox,
    SF Books - COSMOS & The Devil's Game & The Avatar, SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 1980 0822-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: TIME TRAVEL-INFINITE UNIVERSES

               "If there are infinite universes, then
                all possible combinations must exist."

     Not necessarily.  My vague remembrance of college math suggests
that there are different levels of infinity.  The set of integers is
infinite, but there are no reals in it. The fact that there may be an
uncountable number of universes (one kind of infinity) does not mean
that all possible universes exist.  Can somebody derive the class of
infinities that the branching universe generates? I suspect that one
can always fit an uncountable number of universes in between any two
existing universes.  New possibilities are still endless, yes?
        Mike

------------------------------

Date:  8 Nov 1980 1534-PST
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Time Machines

  There is a nifty article in Aug. 28, 1980 NEW SCIENTIST that
discusses time travel in the context of Physics-as-we-know-it.
It seems there might be a way ...

------------------------------

Date: 8 November 1980 1040-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: popularity of COSMOS

The people have spoken: the COSMOS book was number 1 on the New York
Times Best Seller List.  I guess that means lots of the public like
it enough to go out and buy the book to follow along.

------------------------------

Date: 9 November 1980 0220-EST
From: RDD at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject: Review of THE DEVIL'S GAME (w/a comment on THE AVATAR)

THE DEVIL'S GAME of course, is "follow the leader" played by seven
people in a South American paradise for a prize of 1 million, tax
free dollars.  The prize will be split among everyone who lasts
through the game. The challenge for each player is to devise tasks
which will force the other players out of the game, either through
failure to perform the task, refusal to perform the task, or death
resulting from the task. 

The game's sponsor is Sunderland Haverner, a fabulously wealthy man
who has come to depend on the whispering voice of Samael.  A voice
which has helped him amass his fortune, designed the game, and which
may be demon, alien, or the product of Haverner's own mind. The point
of the game is to observe how each of the following carefully chosen
contestants of "this mongrel species called man" evolves in the game:
a terrorist revolutionary, a god fearing military subcontractor, a
flower child turned housewife, a playboy sportsman, a small time
hoodlum, a would be boatbum, and a mother fighting to save her child
who needs enormously expensive, advanced medical care.

At this point it should be obvious that THE DEVIL'S GAME, like
Anderson's THE AVATAR, is just another exercise in simply drawn
stereotypes mouthing an author's arguments.  However, where THE
AVATAR incorporated an excellent novelette dealing with Joelle
and mind/computer linkage with a universe spanning subway system
to divert the reader's attention throughout the rest of the novel,
THE DEVIL'S GAME has only the well drawn characterization of the
amoral Haverner to redeem it. The contestants remain cardboard
cutouts which relate the story in first person during their turn
as leader. Unfortunately, the lack of characterization is crucial
because it leaves the novel's resolution implausible, without
which Anderson fails to make his ultimate point.

In brief, THE DEVIL'S GAME is a mixture of Monty Hall's LET'S MAKE
A DEAL with William Golding's LORD OF THE FLIES.  Superficial and
disappointing.

------------------------------

Date: 11/05/80 1039-EDT
From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject: Suggestion About One Proposed Solution to the
Subject: SFL Identification Friend or Foe Problem

Dear Rodof,

     My vote on the SFL identification logo is cast for the first
entry on the list which was presented in the November 5 edition of
the SFL Digest; the design with a muscular man and voluptuous woman.
I hope that you will consider a suggestion on the implementation
of that idea. This suggestion is that you use the design for the
"LOVERS" card from a standard published Tarot deck, putting an "S"
on one figure, an "F" on the other, and omitting the word "LOVERS".
The "LOVERS" card from the Rider-Waite Tarot deck seems made to order
for what you described, or you might want to use the one from Bruce
Pelz's Fantasy Showcase Tarot deck, which was designed specifically
to address concerns and images of SF fandom. In addition to saving
the work of producing new drawings, this idea appeals because the
symbols of the Tarot traditionally have been thought to contain
hidden knowledge which was only understood by initiates of covert
groups of occultists.

                                  Sincerely,
                                        Karl G. Heinemann

------------------------------

Date:  6 November 1980 17:20 est
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  T-Shirt design

I could do without the "well-endowed" female, whatever her skin color.
I'm also not so keen on the "computer nurd" type.
I don't want to encourage people to think in stereotypes.
You will say, perhaps, "This is only in fun."
I don't think it matters.
I don't want to start a discussion on Sexism here.
I just want to give my opinion.

By the way, how do you know that the "BEM" kissing the "latino" isn't
a female?

------------------------------

Date:  8 Nov 1980 1703-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3
Subject: Button design

Personally, I liked the idea of the at-sign on a grid/net - although
I think the grid should be a round/spoked one instead of "square"
(see the Darrell Sweet cover for "Dragon's Egg" for what I mean).
As a matter of fact, I like the idea of the stars scattered around
the grid on that cover - a round button, with a round "net", a FEW
stars - the buttons gonna be small, remember - and our ubiquitous
"@", sounds like a good combination to me.  Simple, fits a button
well, relatively pertinent, recognizable, and not likely to be
picked up on by anyone else (and maybe not interesting looking
enough to have to explain over and over).

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date:  8 Nov 1980 (Saturday) 1438-EDT
From: WESTFW at WHARTON (William Westfield)
Subject: What's an ALTMODE....

ALTMODE has survived because it sounds much better to say
'ALT-ALT-YOU' than 'ESCAPE-ESCAPE-YOU'.

Bill W

------------------------------

DP@MIT-ML 11/08/80 22:47:28 Re:  Altmode. is ascii 176. (octal)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 NOV 1980 0554-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #131
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 10 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:
SF Movies - Alien, SF Mags - Galaxy & Galileo, SF Awards - ABA and SF,
  SF Books - Number of Sexes & Vulgar Unicorn & Budrys, SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 09 Nov 1980 2236-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: SF News

A.E. Van Vogt has just received a cash settlement of $50,000 from
20th Century Fox arising from his claim that 'Alien' was based on
the 'Discord in Scarlet' section from his novel 'Voyage of the
Space Beagle.'                          SF Chronicle, November 1980

   The story line was similar, although Fox did not know it.  They
   simply did not research the idea properly.  sigh.  However, a
   settlement was FINALLY reached because of the author's age (and
   thus disinclination for a long court fight).

                              - - -

Galaxy and Galileo magazines are dead, according to the magazines
publisher.  Rapid expansion of Galileo, cutting profit margins,
and the lack of a reliable group of people to mail out the issues
contributed to low renewals and thus bad cash flow problems. Galaxy
has spent a lot of money promoting it's next issue, but has now run
out of the money needed to distribute it.       LOCUS, October 1980

   I want my paid for issues!

                              - - -

The American Book Awards has cut the SF category for its awards since
the genre has its own awards.  The total number of categories was cut
from 33 to 17.                                  LOCUS, October 1980

   About time this happened.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Nov 1980 1027-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: number of sexes

Re the inquiry regarding the maximum number of sexes in an alien
species, the most I've heard of is in William Tenn's story "The
Seven Sexes" about a race on Venus.  The problem here is not to
get some arbitrarily large number but to make each sex's function
plausible. I thought Asimov did a good job with three in "The Gods
Themselves", but it's hard to think of a biological reason why you
would want more than two.  Asimov also wrote a story (for Playboy,
I think) wherein single-sex alien invaders can't figure out why
there are so many species on Earth.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 at 0008-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Beware THE VULGAR UNICORN ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The cover says, "If you liked THIEVES' WORLD, you'll love TALES
FROM THE VULGAR UNICORN".

Doncha believe it!

In this sequel, likewise edited by Asprin, the authors seem to be
trying to outdo each other to see who can incorporate the most dirt,
ugliness, and misery.  The sense of fun and fantasy of the original
is sadly missing.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Nov 1980 1046-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Budrys' Book Review

                              BOOK REVIEW
                            By Algis Budrys
            (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

           Isaac Asimov and Martin H. Greenberg, editors
              "Isaac Asimov Presents the Great SF Stories,"
               Vol. 4: 1942 (DAW Books, $2.50)
           George O. Smith's "The Complete Venus Equilateral"
              (Del Rey, $2.25)
           Craig Strete's "If All Else Fails...."
              (Doubleday, $8.95)
           John Varley's "The Barbie Murders"
              (Pocket, $2.25)

    Let me tell you a brief tale, if not about a ghost, then about a
spirit-a geist, if you will; a zeitgeist, the spirit of a time, and
how it lingers....
    "Isaac Asimov Presents the Great SF Stories," Vol. 4: 1942, Isaac
Asimov and Martin H. Greenberg, editors (DAW Books, $2.50), is heavy
freight for one title to bear.  But it turns out to be a thick, new,
handy paperback anthology of just exactly what it claims to be.
    Collected here are 13 stories first published in 1942 by nine of
the great names of SF-Frederic Brown; Lester del Rey, who is now half
of the Del Rey imprint from Ballantine Books; Isaac Asimov, who not
only actually participated heavily in the editing of this volume but
also actually works, hard, on each monthly issue of Isaac Asimov's
Science Fiction Magazine; Alfred Bester, who went on to write the
classic "The Demolished Man" and "The Stars My Destination"; A. E.
van Vogt, who had already written "Slan"; Hal Clement, who would
write "Mission of Gravity" and "Needle"; Anthony Boucher, who would
found "The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction"; Lewis Padgett,
who was the pseudonym of Henry Kuttner and Catherine L. Moore, in
her day the first lady of sci-fi; George O. Smith, of whom more
later, and Donald A. Wollheim, now publisher of DAW Books, with
one of the most memorable, snap-ending SF stories ever published.
    The stories are either really first-rate or at least unforget-
table - Brown's "Star Mouse," del Rey's "Nerves," van Vogt's "The
Weapons Shop" - and if some now read crudely, that's not as important
as the vigor with which they brim. The year 1942 lay squarely at the
heart of the golden age of magazine SF; a time when a young pantheon
of highly intelligent and, as it turns out, remarkably talented
amateurs had been recruited by a Promethean editor named John W.
Campbell Jr.
    They were busy inventing a new professionalism whose imperatives
toward excellence still drive even the youngest, latest neophyte in
the field. More important, they were writing the fundamental stories,
laying down the ideas and exploring the modes that now lie at the
core of contemporary science fiction. The field has gone farther and
wider since then, and in literary terms it has gone deeper, but there
is no way it could go deeper in the thing that counts most in art -
the boundless creative confidence that comes from being at the heart
of a time of major discovery.
    If, in the above volume, part of a series that will march up
through the Golden Age year by year, you respond well to George
O. Smith's "QRM-Interplanetary," then you will surely want "The
Complete Venus Equilateral" (Del Rey, $2.25). "QRM," published at
exactly this time of year in 1942, was the first of Smith's 1942-
1945 series about the interplanetary communications satellite from
which the series got its name. An Arthur C. Clarke introduction
stresses Smith's technological predictions; fair enough.
    In his daytime job, Smith was responsible for major radar
research developments. But he wrote before the days of solid-state
electronics, so all his vast vacuum tubes, and his electronically
driven spaceships, now seem quaint to the average reader.  But
it wasn't so much the futuristic electronics that made "QRM" an
overnight sensation. And it wasn't his prose style, which remains
to this day less highly evolved than his imagination. It was the
immense joy of living, the energy, optimism and good humor that
permeated his work and that still radiate enormous, para-physical
power.
    In his introduction to Craig Strete's collection, "If All Else
Fails...." (Doubleday, $8.95), Jorge Luis Borges also speaks of
power, "the power of genius." It may be the same power. In these
tales, whose copyrights run from 1974 through 1976, we see it at
the hands of one of the new writers to whom the Golden Age is a
tradition, not a memory. Actually, there's more to it than that
- the author is a Cherokee Indian who uses other pen names as
well, and this collection originally appeared in Europe in 1976.
    "Strete" is the author of such stories as "Who was the First
Oscar to Win a Negro?" and "To See the City Sitting on its
Buildings." At first blush, you would think him no relative of
Smith's at all, or Asimov's or del Rey's. But that is not so;
they are his ancestors, nonetheless so just because they are
still alive and well and working. Our generations traverse
swiftly, and we are all still in sight of each other.
    And if you doubt that, try John Varley's "The Barbie Murders"
(Pocket, $2.25), yet another anthology that comes at a time
when all the SF publishers are saying they're not doing books
of stories. Varley's particular expertise is in biology, and he
was born in 1947.
    Otherwise, when you peel away the difference in prose styles
and vocabulary, you are struck by the perpetuity of the thing that
was essential to Smith's success: stories that, whatever their
scenario and technological decorations, set out directly, and in
the joy of exploration, to fine-comb the question of what's the
most satisfactory way to live. We all have different answers, but
if we are in SF at all, we all search. And even the pessimists
among us are optimistic about the eventual results - still, after
all these years, and, I think, forever.
    
------------------------------

Date:  9 Nov 1980 2103-PST
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: the SFL identification logo

My vote would be for using "THE LOVERS" card from Bruce Pelz's
Fantasy Showcase Tarot deck.  How fannish!!

------------------------------

OAF@MIT-MC 11/09/80 14:41:53

Naw, altmode is octal 33, not 176.

Button design - men and women (possibly one of each) fondling a
BEM. After all, we're the lovers, right?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 NOV 1980 0541-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #132
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 11 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:
                SF Books - Roadmarks & Number of Sexes,
  SF TV - Lost Land Writers & COSMOS, Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox,
              Technology - Superconductors, SFL Proposal,
                     Voyager Encounter with Saturn
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 (Monday) 2308-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: A potential BUG in Zelazny's Roadmarks novel:

I am confused, perhaps someone can explain this apparent error to me:
(See pg 147 (Del Rey edition)): Randy and Leila are talking at a bar
with "Leaves of Grass" (the book/microprocessor) on the table.
However, Zelazny appears to get confused and bring "Flowers of Evil"
(the other book/mp in the story) into the scene from out of nowhere
and then it just as mysteriously leaves the scene; "Flowers said..."

Am I confused or is Zelazny?  Roadmarks is a pretty confusing book
and so I can easily imagine having missed a scene someplace.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 1136-PST
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Number of Sexes    

The National Lampoon ran a small comic a coupla years back titled
something like, "The bar pickup scene on Venus, where there are 18
sexes."  The comic described the difficultly of "getting lucky".

Rich

------------------------------

APPLE@MIT-MC 11/10/80 20:35:20 Re: Land of the Lost

     The TV happened to be turned on one day when <<Land of the Lost>>
came on.  Now I have seen episodes of this show before and I was not,
to say the least, very impressed with them. Even though it is directed
at children, I thought the show confused; it seemed that everything
was sacrificed for adventure, and this adventure was pretty bad. And
to add to that, the special effects were horrendous.  But, to get to
the point, I noticed that the author of this episode was none other
that Ben Bova.  Another episode was written by Larry Niven.  How did
the producer of this show get such illustrious SF writers to write
for such a trashy (really) show?  Anyone out there know the answer?

                                HLPV,
                                    Jim Cox

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 1116-EST
From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: Sagan

        One of the pieces that seems to get played whenever Sagan is
talking about the history of human exploratory effort is Hovahness's
neoclassical symphony ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS.  The music is very slow
and majestic with oriental and slavic elements, so if you recall
snatches of strange orchestral music that's probably it.  I think
it's one of Hovahness's better works, and the best recording ( not
the one used on the show ) is on Poseidan records, conducted by
Hovahness himself.
                P. Hardy

------------------------------

Date: 10 November 1980 1246-EST (Monday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject:  Time Travel & Infinite Universes

   The question of the cardinality (in orders of infinity) of
all universes is an interesting one. One school holds that a new
universe is created at every sub-atomic choice point.  In other
words, when some quantum action could go one way or the other
from our point of view, it is actually not making a choice but
spawning of a new universe for each possibility. Now, if at each
choice point there are a finite number of possibilities, then the
set of universes could be no worse than aleph-null in cardinality.
Otherwise, it would be no better than aleph-null. There is a fence
post problem here because we don't know if time has been around for
an infinite length of ticks or even if ticks can be considered a
basic unit of time.  (ie is time quantized)

        -Lee

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 0913-PST
From: Steve Saunders <SAUNDERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Room-temp superconductor

There was a blurb in Chemical and Engineering News 8-Sep-80 p.36
about the same "discovery".  This one at least didn't confuse
bromine with boron (boron is the one), but mentioned "negative
voltages or resistances ...".  It quoted Vahldiek as promising
to publish his results in the "Journal of the Less-Common Metals"
which our librarian says actually exists. But something is wrong:
neither Science News, Physics Today, nor any of the other quick
scientific news sources, nor even the Wall Street Journal (surely
the business implications are obviously great) has seen fit to
publish notice of it. This could mean that
  - Vahldiek is a hoaxer, or has a reputation for unreliable claims;
  - someone (USGovt?) has prevailed on those sources to keep it quiet;
  - the scientific community is much much slower with its internal
    communications than we thought;
I don't have enough data to distinguish these hypotheses.  Any more
information, stories, or guesses would be welcome. We can hope that
this topic will move out of the province of SF-Lovers!
                Steve

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 07:58 PST
From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Button design (SF-L V2 #130)

I agree with Zellich. I think some kind of grid with an "@" in the
middle would be the best. I already voted for one of the suggested
designs, but I would like to switch my vote to a grid-@ if that is
possible.

Cheryl

------------------------------

Date:  9 Nov 1980 at 2310-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SF-LOVERS' LOGO ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Whether the T-shirt design and the button design should be the same
is an open question.  My only interest is in the button.  As more
than one of us has observed, for a 2-inch button, the design should
be open -- lots of empty area, and no element requiring a verrrrry
close look to perceive clearly.  You couldn't get a decent BEM (or
an indecent one, for that matter) drawn in the center of a net on 
such a small space and have an effective button.  Similarly, a 
line-printer-size at-sign would be too small.  It would be better
to have the at-sign either be hand-drawn or done on a graphics 
printer (or DEC-writer?) so as to be 2 or 3 times the size of a 
line-printed one.

I suspect that a "round/spoked" grid would be more likely thought of
as a "web", while a "net" would imply a square grid.  While I think
the star-chart design on the DRAGON'S EGG cover is quite handsome,
it has disadvantages:

   potential confusion with Spiderman-fan design
   similarity to certain windows in the STAR WARS universe
   the stars would be "clutter" on the small area of a button

The final decision lies with RODOF, since the initial idea and the
offer to implement it was his. Darnit, I STILL like the idea of a
design so simple that anybody c-o-u-l-d make one of his/her own if
necessary.

------------------------------

Date: 10 November 1980 1413-EST (Monday)
From: R.Kamesh <Kamesh.Ramakrishna at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  SF-Logo
Message-Id: <10Nov80 141329 KR10@CMU-10A>

This isn't just a compromise, its an idea!

Mechanical looking BEM in the  middle with 8 arms (connectors,  limbs)
sprawling out  in  to  the  distance.  Tiny  (small?  depends  on  the
perspective) human-looking mites vigorously fondling this link.

This logo  captures  the net  analogy  (all your  favourite  spiders),
brings BEMs, robots, computers  and lovers into  the picture in  eight
swollen feet.

To add  poignancy to  the tale  told  by the  logo, the  eight  humans
fondling the  lIMP-TIPS could  be back  to  back on  the back  of  the
T-shirt.  This touch is not possible for the button, though one  could
consider a simple topological transformation that projects the BEM out
to the edges of the  button, keeping the eight  users back to back  in
the middle.   There  is the  small  problem of  how  to keep  the  BEM
coherent while it is being blown inside out; we should be able to find
some hints from  some of  the inner-worlds type  of stories  (Varley's
TITAN maybe).

Kamesh

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 1010-PST
From: William Gropp <WDG at SU-AI>
Subject: The end of ALTMODE 

To end all debate on what is an altmode, below is ...

                            Standard ASCII

                      0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7

                 000  NUL SOH STX ETX EOT ENQ ACK BEL
                 010  BS  TAB LF  VT  FF  CR  SO  SI
                 020  DLE DC1 DC2 DC3 DC4 NAK SYN ETB
                 030  CAN EM  SUB ESC FS  GS  RS  US
                 040  SP  !   "   #   $   %   &   '
                 050  (   )   *   +   ,   -   .   /
                 060  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7
                 070  8   9   :   ;   <   =   >   ?
                 100  @   A   B   C   D   E   F   G
                 110  H   I   J   K   L   M   N   O
                 120  P   Q   R   S   T   U   V   W
                 130  X   Y   Z   [   \   ]   ^   _
                 140  `   a   b   c   d   e   f   g
                 150  h   i   j   k   l   m   n   o
                 160  p   q   r   s   t   u   v   w
                 170  x   y   z   {   |   }   ~   DEL

I should point out that octal 136 and 137 have two different printing
representations. 136 is either caret or up-arrow; 137 is either back-
arrow or underscore.

Note that THERE IS NO ALTMODE!  It is true that ESC used to be
ALTMODE, but no more.  Some strange systems like SUAI and MIT have
used a lot of the drek in octal 39 and lower for useful printing
codes; SUAI has actually rearranged two printing characters!!
                                                Bill Gropp

------------------------------

Date: 08 Nov 1980 1210-PST
From: TAW at SU-AI
Subject:     Voyager flyby of Saturn
Subject: [ Final message of this issue ]

               1 9 8 0 : A   S A T U R N  O D Y S S E Y

     You are invited to a two day journey through time and space on
NOVEMBER 11 and 12, 1980 at the SAN FRANCISCO PALACE OF FINE ARTS. If
you are daring enough to attend this epic adventure, you'll experience
SATURN and its mysterious moons relayed directly to the Palace of Fine
Arts as if you were traveling on board the starship Voyager.

     Your tourguides for the journey will be:

                               BEN BOVA
                      science fiction author and
                  executive editor of OMNI magazine.

   JAMES "SCOTTY" DOOHAN                       BARBARA MARX HUBBARD
of the Starship Enterprise.                  Committee for the Future.


     In addition there will be films, slides, and video reports on
the space programs' dramatic saga accompanied by synthesizer music
and laser special effects.

                                A N D

     The first COLOR pictures from the mysterious moon of TITAN.
These images will be EXCLUSIVELY at the Palace of Fine Arts and
are UNAVAILABLE anywhere else on Earth.

   Exhibit hall opens at 11 a.m. at no charge.  Show time 7:30 p.m.
 For information, phone: (408) 741-1189 or ARPAnet mail to TAW@SU-AI.


                      VOYAGER ENCOUNTERS SATURN 

                            Presented by
      San Francisco Section of the American Astronautical Society
                                and
                          The Viking Fund
                        in association with
                           OMNI Magazine

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 NOV 1980 0620-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #133
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 12 Nov 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:
 Voyager - TV Coverage & AP/NYT Stories, Technology - Superconductors,
  SF Books - Here's the Plot & Butterfly Kid & Uncommon SF & TAKEOVER,
  SFL Proposal, SF Calendar - Loscon Schedule, SF Movies - ERASERHEAD
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1980 0129-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Voyager tonight!

                               NEWSBEAT

"Voyager One" (Public TV Wednesday from 5 to 8 p.m.)  Watch public
TV for NASA's live coverage of Voyager's encounter with Saturn.
What you'll get on commercial TV are the usual "gee whiz" excerpts.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1980 0132-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Voyager News file  

A file containing all AP and NYT news wire stories about the voyager
flyby is being maintained at SAIL. The file is VOYGER.NS[T,JPM]. The
file can be FTPed from SAIL even if you do not have a SAIL account.

The file will be updated twice a day (approximately every morning
and evening, PST) until the probe has flown by.

Jim

[ The Voyager news stories will also be available from the file
  AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS VOYGER.  Arrangements are being made to make
  the file accessible to people from our other customary FTP
  sites. They will be announced promptly.  --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1980 2155-EST
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Re: RT superconductors

What piqued my interest was that the crystals supposedly super-
conducted in one direction only.  Is this a "reasonable" phenomenon?
If so, one might see a great difference in the magnetic properties,
ie, you couldn't get induced currents except in that direction. Thus
it might only exclude magnetic field components perpendicular to the
direction of superconductivity...

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 1936-PST
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: Here's the plot...; The Butterfly Kid; favorite uncommon sf

     Can anyone identify the following fragment of a plot from a
short story? -- A crime of some sort is committed and a couple of
human characters get the help of an alien Sherlock Holmes to solve
the mystery. I think the alien lives on a world which has absorbed
19th century British literature to the point that the aliens there
live the lives of various characters in these books.  Hence, there
exists a Sherlock Holmes....  This story may or may not have been
in a collection of Holmes-in-SF pieces; (I recall reading some
other Holmes in the future mysteries at the same time I read the
above).
     I have been reading The Butterfly Kid (by Anderson), and have
heard that it is part of a trilogy, each book written by a different
person (all of whom are friends).  One of the authors is Michael
Kurland, and I think the third book is by Waters and is titled The
Probability Pad.  Kurland, incidentally, has written The Infernal
Device, a very good Moriarty book, and also The Whenabouts of Burr,
which I thought only fair.  Does anyone know for sure the other
titles, whether they are in print, etc?
     I would find a poll of people's favorite uncommon sf and fantasy
books much more interesting than the landmark poll.  This seems to be
the right kind of group to ask -- almost everybody has a few favorite
books that they think are relatively unknown -- and it could lead to
quite an interesting booklist.  Has such a poll been taken already?
Comments?
                                
                                good reading,   
                                                cat

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1980 1821-EST
From: ROBG at MIT-DMS (Rob F. Griffiths)
Subject: Another one of...

I have heard a rumor that Stephen King has got another new book out by
the title of "TAKEOVER".  Does anyone know anything about this book?
Not as in the plot, but as in availability? I heard that if I wrote to
his hard-back publisher I could get a copy.  Does anyone know how much
money I should enclose? Or who his hard-back publisher is?

[[Please reply to me, not the list, as I'm NOT on SF-LOVERS.]]

                -Rob F. Griffiths
                        ROBG @ DM

------------------------------

Date: 11 NOV 1980 2239-PST
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: tees and buttons

     Hokay, folks, the two big winners were VERY close, with the BEM
at a TTY narrowly edging the green-skinned, multi-limbed lovers. The
scattering few other votes could swing the election either way, so if
you don't mind, we'll have a runoff between just those two.

     I response to a few other things -- I LIKE female BEMs, and
"sensuous" was never defined as exclusively female...  I think the
Tarot card Lovers idea was interesting, but I know I'd never have
understood it, so there must be others who'd object.  The buttons
will have a square net pattern, if only because it doesn't look so
bad if it gets a little off-center in printing -- besides the other
implies a center to the net. I have no objection to a superimposed
@, as long as no one else uses a $ or something for the same thing.
Otherwise, I'll design a cute SF-L logo...


   VOTE FOR ONE:
                  1. BEM at a TTY
                  2. Alien Lovers

   YES OR NO:
                  Is the @ sign an acceptable symbol?
                  (if no, why)

              SYOS
             (See You On System)
                Rodof

------------------------------

Date: 11 November 1980 0943-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: ASCII

I believe that backarrow and uparrow were for an old version of ASCII
and have officially been replaced by underscore and caret.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1980 11:20 PST
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Loscon schedule and RFP

Here's a short summary of the Loscon schedule, courtesy of Cheryl
Chapman <Chapman.ES at PARC>.  Films, Hucksters, Art Show will
generally run all day and into the evening every day.  A list of
confirmed guests appears at the end of the program.

                  * * * Request for Party * * *

I'll be there. Anyone else who plans to go to Loscon and is interested
in another of the highly acclaimed SF-Lovers parties please send me
<Brodie at PARC> mail indicating what day you prefer (Friday looks
plausible), and I will put you on PARTY.DIS[1,RRB] or whatever. Life
is short.

    -------- Schedule of Loscon 7 (November 28-30, 1980) --------

Fri morning (from 11 on) - Opening ceremony

Fri afternoon (from 1 on) - "How to attend a Con"; Slide show of
   "Altered States" and "Superman II"; "The Regency - What Was It?
   (Background info for Regency Dancing in the evening); "Extra-
   terrestrial phsychology"; Auction; "Sex in Fandom Panels - Why
   are they so popular?"; David Gerrold reads "A Matter For Man";
   Dr. Who fandom meeting

Fri evening (from 8 on) - Regency dancing; Filk singing

Sat morning (from 10 on) - "The Occult in SF"; Fantasy Role Playing in
   Theory and Practice (i.e. a room has been set aside for D&Ders);
   "Science Fiction Criticism"; "LASFS Book 1 - Genesis to Exodus,
   1934 to 1948" (LASFS history); Slide show of "Clash of the Titans";

Sat afternoon (from 1 on) - "Masquerade Techniques"; "Larry Niven, an
   interview"; "Galaxy magazine - a 30-year perspective"; "SF Radio";
   "The Films of Jack Arnold"; "Music and SF"; Filksinging;

Sat evening (from 8 on) - Masquerade; Jack Arnold film "The Fiend
   without a Face"; Filksinging;

Sun morning (from 11 on) - "The Happy Media - newish outlets for
   SF, photography, vanity pressess, etc."; Whatever happened to
   genzines?"; "The Best Unsung SF Films";

Sun afternoon (from 1 on) - "Collaborating with Larry Niven - Jerry
   Pournelle and Steve Barnes give us insight"; "Physics X - Robert
   Forward"; Steve Barnes reads from "Dream Park"; "We want Infor-
   mation" (Prisoner Fandom); "The Action Story"; "Science Fiction
   Consultants" (a company of fans that are influencing (or at least
   trying) the media to produce better SF products); "Gandalf and his
   Staff"; Closing Ceremony;

Sun evening (from after the Closing Ceremony on) - Dead Dog Party

Confirmed Guests - Craig Miller, Bjo Trimble, Elayne Pelz, Marilyn
   Niven, Jack Martin, Larry Niven, A. E. Van Vogt, Greg Chalfin,
   David Gerrold, Mel Gilden, Alan Winston, Fred Patten, Mike Glyer,
   Bruce Pelz, Alva Rogers, Gus Willmorth, Marjii Ellers, H. L. Gold,
   Mike Hodel, Bill Mueller, Bill Warren, Paul Edwin Zimmer, Bill
   Rotsler, Marty Cantor, Dennis Fischer, Jerry Pournelle, Steve
   Barnes, Robert Forward, Phil Castora, Joyce McDaniel, Rusty Dawe.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/12/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
similarities between the aliens in ERASERHEAD and ALIEN.  People who
are not familiar with these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 10 November 1980 2016-EST (Monday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10A
Subject:  SPEAKING OF ALIEN . . .

Having just seen "ERASERHEAD" for the first time, I was surprised
that noone has commented on the similarity of their "alien" and the
one in ALIEN. Not only are the headforms very similar, but also the
beansprout-shaped body idea. When "eraserhead's" head pops off, and
the "alien head" pops out, the imagery is unmistakable.  Has anyone
else noted this?

-warren-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 NOV 1980 0614-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #134
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 13 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - Uncommon SF & Here's the Title & Number of Sexes,
      Time Travel - Avoiding Paradox, SF TV - Lost Land Writers,
     Technology - Superconductors, Voyager Encounter with Saturn,
                             SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1980 at 2350-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SOUNDS LIKE A FUN PROJECT...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE's suggestion for compiling a list of people's
favorite uncommon SF and fantasy books.  Especially with annotations
whenever possible.  I hope "cat" offers to collect and report them.

(I say "whenever possible" because sometimes you just can't account
 for why some particular book turns you on specially. Like Garrett's
 ANYTHING YOU CAN DO probably isn't greatly out of the ordinary, but
 it really made me tingle. It was the kind of book that makes you go
 around pressing it on people because you want to share the joy.)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1980 1208-PST
From: The Moderator 
Subject: Fiendish plot for an "alien Sherlock Holmes"

   There are probably more than one "alien Sherlock Holmes", but
   OR.TOVEY's involves aliens that base their lives on human books,
   and that sounds like the Hokas from Toka, in EARTHMAN'S BURDEN
   by Anderson & Dickson. The other stories in the collection are
   not Holmes-related, but are based on Hokan imitation of other
   literary genres.  A good, but not great, collection.
                                     -- Donald R. Woods <DON at SU-AI>

   The story OR.Tovey was refering to is in the collection EARTHMAN'S
   BURDEN by Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson. It is a collection of
   hilarious stories about Hokas, aliens from the planet Toka with
   less than a firm grasp of reality and who love reading human
   fiction and then living the characters that they read to their
   upmost ability.  It was the only story in that collection about
   an alien Sherlock Holmes.
                                             -- Bruce <ISRAEL MIT-AI>

   The Sherlock Holmes story is The Adventure of the Misplaced Hound
   by Poul Anderson and Gordon R. Dickson. It appeared in Earthman's
   Burden, an Avon paperback, copyright December 1979.
                           -- Alan Frisbie <Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC>

   Anyone interested in the Hokas should also look up Anderson and
   Dickson's novel about them, STAR PRINCE CHARLIE.  For other
   opinions about these stories see the results of the SF Comedy
   Query in [SFL V2 #17,19,27].           -- Roger <Duffey at MIT-AI>

------------------------------

Date:  12 November 1980 02:01 est
From:  JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics

Greetings from Amherst Mass,

   Boy, leave you people alone for a week and you get into cantorial
and branched universe! Anyway, my form of time travel does work! The
energy required to go back is thhe energy required to keep the uni-
verse the same given the fact you've gone back. So if you go back to
kill grandma, you will only succeed in going back if:

     a) you weren't going to get her anyway.
     b) you can pump in enough energy to stop
        the paradox from happening.

Anyway...on to other things.

As to numbers of sexes in books, in 'Have Space Suit, Will Travel'
by Heinlein (sorry), he has 12 (count them, 12) sexes involved in
copulation.  So there!  As to writers who worked for less than
notable TV. Niven used the plot of 'The Soft Weapon' for a Star
Trek animated show!  Speaking of Niven, he has done some stuff
with infinite universe (All the Myriad Ways). He came up with
the famous mathematical beer song at Noreascon II:

        aleph null bottles of beer on the wall,
        aleph null bottles of beer,
        and if one of those bottles should happen to fall,
        aleph null bottles of beer on the wall.

This was the same session that he explained how to get a hollow world.
Thanks for the info on Zork. As to the design, how about something that
would give the field, but not the specific topic. a BEM devouring punch
cards...
                                hackito ergo sum,
                                repeal entropy in our lifetime,
                                fandom is a way of life,
                                james turner @ umass-cyber

P.S. Any Elf-quest fans out there?
     Sorry about spellings, I'm still on the same terminal.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1980 0915-PST
From: Steve Saunders <SAUNDERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: 1-dim superconductor

If the superconductivity is truly one-dimensional (and not, as in
Type II in a magnetic field, due to parallel filaments of isotropic
superconductivity) then a local supercurrent loop is impossible and
magnetic fields (in ANY direction) would not be rigorously excluded!
The field expulsion experiment would have to use a ring of the super-
conducting material with the preferred direction formed in place so
that there would be superconducting loops.  Note that failure to
superconduct "laterally" means that the current must be in precisely
the preferred direction at every point along any superconducting path
including a loop. It might be quite difficult to get a ring with its
crystal structure oriented in such a way that the super-path ever
closed!
                Steve

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1980 1713-PST
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: See the new Saturn pictures from Voyager I!


                          VOYAGER AT SATURN

                              A talk by
                          Dr. David Morrison
                      Jet Propulsion Laboratory

                         (sponsored by OASIS)

Date:   Saturday, Nov. 22, 1980
Time:   7:00 pm
Place:  Kinsey Auditorium, Calif. Museum of Science and
        Industry 700 State Dr., L.A.  (across from USC)

The newest pictures of Saturn, its rings, and its moons (including
Titan) taken by the Voyager I spacecraft will be presented.

For more info, contact KATZ@ISIF

                                Alan

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1980 1559-EST (Wednesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A

A BEM at a video terminal strikes me as a reasonable choice.

I went back thru the last half-dozen messages and can't find one that
explains why an @ is significant or has any recognizable value.  I
have been on the Arpanet for as long as CMU has been on the Arpanet,
and I haven't ever seen the @ except as a qualifier to a network site,
e.g., @CMU-10A, @MIT-ML, which hardly qualifies it as "ubiquitous".
Therefore, unless you come up with a cute "network site" name for an @
to qualify, I think it is much too obscure (about the same obscurity
as the tarot cards, which once they were explained were clever).
                                        joe

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1980 18:34-EST
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject:  tees and buttons vote

T-shirt: BEM at a TTY (better yet, BEM looking OUT OF a TTY...)

Button: I'd prefer some SF-specific frob in the net.  @ would make
        more of a HUMAN-NETS logo than SF-LOVERS.  Maybe we could
        put something else in the net, and HUMAN-NETS could put @
        (and INFO-MICRO could put a micro and ...)

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1980 1550-EST (Wednesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A

The character ascii 176 is a tilde.  How a ~ would be mistaken for
an altmode escapes me...

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1980 10:21-EST
From: Matthew Jody Lecin <MJL at MIT-MC>
Subject: ASCII

Back-arrow and up-arrow are QUITE still in use.  Anyone out there
reading this on a Datamedia-2500 (Elite?)...  I bet you all see
this "^" as an ARROW up, and this "_" as an arrow left, or a BACK-
ARROW.

                                                        Mjl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 NOV 1980 0647-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #135
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 14 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:
       Voyager - AP/NYT Stories, Technology - Superconductors,
      SF TV - Lost Land Writers, LucasFilms Offer, SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1980 0220-EST
From: The Moderator
Subject: How to obtain the Voyager newswire stories

The arrangements to make the Voyager newswire stories available at
our customary FTP sites are now complete.  Due to the large volume
of material, RUTGERS has chosen to make it available from a BBOARD
rather than simply from a file.  The stories are available from
the files listed below at the remaining sites.

These files will be updated daily as new stories become available.
(Twice daily for SU-AI and RUTGERS.) A copy of this material will
also be available from the SF-LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Richard
Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, and Jon Solomon for providing
space for the materials on their systems, and to Jim McGrath for
taking the time to make them available to us.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI       AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS VOYGER
CMUA         TEMP:VOYAGE.UPD[A210DP0Z]
MIT-Multics  >udd>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>voyager-news.text
PARC-MAXC    [Maxc]<Brodie>Voyager.TXT
SU-AI        VOYGER.NS[T,JPM]

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

Rutgers      At Rutgers the Voyager material will be available from
             the <HACKS>VOYAGER BBOARD. This BBOARD is being updated
             automatically twice daily. Rutgers people interested in
             keeping abreast of the Voyager I results should execute
             BBOARD <HACKS>VOYAGER in their customary way (ie. in
             your LOGIN.CMD, BBoard.CMD, manually, etc.)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1980 1849-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: UNI-DIMENSIONAL SUPERCONDUCTORS

Since this is SFL rather than physics-net, can anyone construct a
mechanism for the following: Uni-dimensional, Uni-directional (not
the same thing?)  cryogenic superconductors are used in a factory
to create and bottle magnetic monopoles (probably in a zero-gee
factory), that are then used for powered spaceflight.
        Mike

------------------------------

RWK@MIT-MC 11/13/80 06:16:33
Re: Why Larry Niven and Ben Bova write cartoon episodes

I believe the reason they do this is *MONEY*.  The producers don't
care about quality, in fact often excise it.  But they do pay good
money for small work. I seem to recall Larry Niven saying something
about this when he was here at MIT last winter.  Does anybody
remember more specifically?

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1980 1353-EST (Thursday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject:  Finite numbers

A version of the beer bottle song heard in our lounge...
     A googolplex bottles of beer on the wall
     A googolplex bottles of beer
     If one of those bottles should happen to fall
     A ... <long pause, followed by some appropriate punt,
            such as "Oh, the hell with it....">

It is the only version of this song that I know of that terminates
at the first verse.
                                joe

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1980 17:13 PST
From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Work for LucasFilm?

Just the thing . . .

     Date: 13 Nov. 1980 4:35 pm PST (Thursday)
     From: Boggs
     Subject: Work for LucasFilm?

     LucasFilm, the people who brought you Star Wars, is looking
     for a hardware designer. He/she would design and build special
     purpose hardware for the computer graphics system they are
     building.

     LucasFilm is located in Marin county.  Rumor has it that they
     have lots of money and are building a mind-boggling system.
     Alvy Ray Smith and Jim Blinn, known to many people at Parc,
     work there.

     If you know of a hardware type with a good track record who
     is looking for a job, refer him/her to:

          Alvy Smith
          LucasFilm
          (415) 499-0239

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1980 10:35-EST
From: Matthew Jody Lecin <MJL at MIT-MC>

For the uninformed, I believe this is the meaning behind the "@"...

Most of us have net sites we can either call over the fone, or login
on hardwire terminals as our homesite (Mailbox, if you will) on the
Net.  There is that Unfortunate few, however that must use a TIP to
get where they want to go.  The default intercept character (like
ctrl-^ in telnet) is @ to a TIP.

                                                        Matt

------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 11/13/80 14:37:44

     For myself, buttons and tee-shirts don't appeal.

     For the pure love of flaming, however, I'll suggest that all
of the controversy can be avoided by adopting an attractive but
purely abstract logo.  Make it distinctive, but AVOID any real
world connotations altogether.  This is sort of a Zen idea. Make
the symbol be the important thing, shifting emphasis off the
thing symbolized.  I suggest a blue circle centered in a gray
or silver equilateral triangle, worn point down.

     At one stroke, we eliminate argument about the relative merits
of various symbolisms, as well as protecting our secrecy. Of course,
people will invent meanings for the symbol, but let them do so LATER,
after it is adopted.

     (This was inspired by the Esperanto-speakers' green star.)

        ---Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1980 1357-EST (Thursday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject:  Logo

What about "@Terra" or "@SOL-III" somewhere on the net...?
                                        joe

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1980 0809-PST
From: Dolata@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: BEM looking out of a terminal

Very clever idea Gail, the BEM looking OUT of the terminal is
excellent.  That has my unqualified vote as BEST.

Dolata@sumex-aim

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1980 at 1101-PST
From: chesley at sri-unix
Subject: alt-mode etc.

     Well, I can't resist putting in two bits here, tho I was hoping
that someone with more accurate knowledge would say something: left
arrow and up arrow did get officially changed to under-bar and cir-
cumflex.  Whether this was a change in the standard, or part of the
process of standardization, I'm not sure. It happened (near as I can
recollect) about seven or eight years ago. As to alt-mode, I remember
hacking some TTY driver code several years ago which converted 176
(and I believe one other 17x code) to ESC (33); I had to take this
out to get the corresponding printable characters. My interpretation
at the time was that originally there were separate ESC and alt-mode
characters, but alt was dropped in favor of just ESC.  Of course,
there are still some (usually older) terminals, like the DM-2500,
that still have left and up arrow, and some that still have alt-
mode. (Amusingly, my own terminal (a DM-3025) has an alt-mode key,
but it's used for local functions such as changing the baud rate.)
        --Harry...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 NOV 1980 1043-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #136
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 15 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Number of Sexes & Journal of Irreproducible Results,
                     Technology - Superconductors,
        SFL Proposal, What Happens at a Con? - GoH Query Results
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1980 1347-EST
From: KERN at RUTGERS
Subject: Species with maximum number of sexes in SF.

     My nomination is the Last Men in Olaf Stapledon's LAST AND FIRST
MEN.  There were 96 distinct sexes among the Last Men. (Most of them
being basically male or female type sexes).  For more details, see
the book.

-K B Kern

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1980 (Friday) 2048-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: Stuff'n'fluff

"FFF K-core of rom in the box... FFF K-core of rom...
 you or one out and shunt it around... FFE K-core of ram..."

(I do not recall where I read/heard the following:)

    "The philosophers think that it's drab
     That astronomers think that it's fab
      That when all time is ended
      Relitivly expended
     The BIG BANG will become a GIB GNAB"
 
(If it was out of Omni consider me duely embarrasserd)

More on the creation and destruction (destructuring?) of the
universe in "The Creation Clarified" by Albin Chaplin reproduced
in "The Journal of Irreproducible Results -- Selected Papers" Any
interested in knowing how to order said journal?  It is one of the
few really good journal buys left ($4.50 for a year -- quarterly).

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 14 November 1980  10:41-EST
From: John A. Pershing Jr. <JPERSHING at BBNA>
Subject: Uni-Directional [Super?]Conductors

Are people perhaps confusing room-temp superconductors with linear-
chain (vanilla-flavored) conductors?  The latter were described in
fair detail in "Linear-Chain Conductors" by A. Epstein and J. Miller,
in the October '79 Scientific American.

Linear-chain conductors conduct only along one axis (almost as well as
most metals) and insulate in all other directions.  For the most part,
they become semi-conductive at low temperatures.  They are composed of
doped crystalline polymers [essentially].

  -jp

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1980 09:13 PST
From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Symbolism of "@" [SFL V2 #135]

Since the very first SF-Lovers party was held in my room at Westercon
this year, here is the significance I attach to the "@".  In order
to gain admission to the party, a potential attendee had to respond
appropriately to the question "Do you have an at-sign in your name?"
We didn't care if someone made up an appropriate name, if they knew
enough about the ARPA net to do so, although we had enough people
from all over the country at the party that a bogus site name probably
would have been detected. Since everyone who gets SF-Lovers has an
at-sign (sometimes printed as "at") in their Net Address, I feel this
is an appropriate symbol for our logo.

Cheryl (Chapman.ES@PARC-MAXC)

P.S. I'm surprised that there is any question about the significance
     of the "@" or of it's appropriateness as potentially part of our
     logo.

------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1980 1807-EST (Friday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  SFLovers Button and Tee Shirt Design

As for the Actual Design I prefer the Tarot Version, though
it may be hard to get onto a button.  However, moving on to
more philosophic points, the design should have a meaning other
than the identification of SFLovers so that it can be explained
cleanly, and secondly, it should be strange, weird, crazy, or
bizzarre enough in both meaning and design that non-SFLovers
would make copies of it. It might be pretty embarrassing to
walk up to someone whom you thought was an SFL only to find
out that they didn't know what the hell you were talking
about.
     (flame off)
                                        -doug

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 at 0018-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

   ^^^^^^^^^^^^ MOST ATTRACTIVE GoH QUERY RESULTS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

SUMMARY: A very wide spread, with 3 predictable main vote-pullers,
         and a highly predictable topcat.

Because my own preferences were so esoteric, I omitted any authors
that ONLY I voted for.  So H.M. Hoover, Colin Kapp, Stephen Tall,
etc., are not included since no one else voted for them.

x      Anderson, Poul
x      Bellairs, John
         If you haven't read THE FACE IN THE FROST, do so \at/
         \once/!  It's a remarkable book. <HITCHCOCK at CCA>
xx     Bester, Alfred
x      Biggle, Lloyd
         He's by far the best at mixing the senses of wonder
         of music and SF. <HITCHCOCK at CCA>
x      Bova, Ben
xxx    Brunner, John
x      Card, Orson S.
xxx    Cherryh, C.J.
         Got to talk to her for about half an hour at a Balticon
         and was fascinated. <HITCHCOCK at CCA>
xx     Clement, Hal
x      Coney, Michael G.
xx     Cooper, Susan
         I know her slightly and think she'd make a fascinating GoH,
         but she's not con oriented (we've never been able to get her
         for Boskone) and tends to be very busy. <HITCHCOCK at CCA>
x      Crichton, Michael
x      DeCamp, L. Sprague
xx     Dickson, Gordon
         Gordy is a LUV of a man!  Happily for us down here, he has
         accepted for OTHERCON next fall. <HJJH at UTEXAS>
xx     Elgin, S.H.
         Probably an artifact, all 3 of us being "card-carrying
         linguists". <JOHN M. and HJJH at UTEXAS>
xxxx   Ellison, Harlan
x      Ford, John  (see extensive comment below)
xxxxxx Forward, Robert
xxx    Garrett, Randall
xx     Gerrold, David
         Put him in the same room with Ellison and see what happens!
         <LARKE at MIT-AI>
x      Harrison, Harry
x      Herbert, Frank
xxxx   Hogan, James
x      Klass, Philip (aka Wm. Tenn)
x      Laumer, Keith
x      Lee, Tanith
         I normally DO NOT read fantasy in any form - a HARD CORE
         NUTS & BOLTS hacker.  Yet her books capture me.  I want
         to be Parl Dro!  <MJL at MIT-DMS>
xxxx   LeGuin, Ursula K.
x      Leiber, Fritz
x      Martin, George R.R.
x      McIntyre, Vonda K.
xx     McKillip, Patricia
xxxxx  Niven, Larry
x      Nourse, Alan
xx     Pournelle, Jerry
x      Robinson, Spider
         Because there IS a tavern I frequent called Callahans
         that, altho in NJ and not NY, he might just WANT to
         have a drink in sometime... <MJL at MIT-DMS>
xx     Schmitz, James H.
x      Sheffield, Charles
x      Simak, Clifford
x      Stine, G. Harry
x      Tiptree, James, Jr.
xxxx   Varley, John
xxx    Vinge, Joan
x      Wilhelm, Kate
x      Williamson, Jack
xxxx   Zelazny, Roger

Assuming that Forward, Hogan, and, p-o-s-s-i-b-l-y Niven, wouldn't
pull so many votes if it weren't for their association with our
mutual bond, computers, my advice to a con committee pondering
GoH's would be, "Try to get Ellison, LeGuin, Varley, or Zelazny!"

                    ------------------------------

<DAUL at MIT-MC> comments:

   * I first came across Ford in the SF-Lovers editions.  He
     is the author of WEB OF ANGELS, Pocket Books, July 1980.
   
     It is a rather good book about a universe completely connected
     and run by computer (the web). There are four levels of literacy
     in the web.  The hero is on the 4th level.
   
     "He was a genius in a computerized universe...and they wanted
      to kill him for it."
   
     1st Literacy: To use the Web as a communications device only.
   
     2nd Literacy: Ability to retrieve and store data in open Web
             storage.  To use existing precoded programs in normal
             access patterns.

     3rd Literacy: Ability to change the structure of existing Web.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 NOV 1980 1201-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #137
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 16 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:
 Technology - Superconductors, SF Music - Day the Earth Stood Still,
    SF TV - Lost in Space, SF Books - Congo & Bradbury Collection,
                             SFL Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 0930-PST
From: Donald R. Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Unidirectional vs Super 

According to the article in Electronics magazine (Oct 9, 1980),
the crystals have zero resistance along one dimension, not just
low resistance.  From what I can determine from the article, I
gather that there are two reasons for the current [hm] lack of
interest on the part of the more widely read scientific journals.
First, the crystals have not yet been shown to repel magnetic
flux, which is a second necessary property for a superconductor.
(The discoverer, Fred W. Vahldiek at Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base, is reported to be setting up a test for this effect. Some
people are dubious that a one-dimensional superconductor can
interact properly with magnetic fields.)  Second, and probably
more important, is that nobody else has independently confirmed
the results.  The process for creating the crystals is "patent
pending", so perhaps noone else has even been told how it's
done.  The article doesn't even say that anyone else has tested
Valhdiek's own crystals.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 1334-PST (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: music from "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

Somewhere, there exists an album of the original soundtrack music
from the above named movie.  It may well be long out of "print".
Does anyone know anything about the existence of this album? 
Publisher and availability are of particular interest.

If nobody knows, it will be necessary to search through a pile
of old album quarterlies, which will be quite a job.

Thanks much.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 1336-PST (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Asimov meets "Lost In Space"

So I was sitting here watching the Saturday running of Lost in Space
locally (no snide remarks, there is no funnier show on television,
short of Dragnet), when I caught a cute little exchange.

Professor Robinson (remember him?) and Don were about to embark on
a rather dangerous journey into another dimensional system.  Before
they left, they asked the robot what their chances were of returning
safely.  The robot replied that: "The primary directive of robotics
would not allow me to let you go if I did not consider it possible
for you to return; a robot may not allow a human to come to harm."
The funny part was that the robot pronounced robotics RO-BOE-TICS.
I almost couldn't figure out what the word was until I thought about
it. Oh well, getting close.

--Lauren--

P.S.  That does not compute, you bubbleheaded boobie.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 2252-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: SF or mainstream?

It looks to me like CONGO is SF, although this review treats it as
mainstream.  Anyone read it?

                     An Excerpt from Bookreviews
                          By ANATOLE BROYARD
                   c. 1980 N.Y. Times News Service

        CONGO. By Michael Crichton. 348 pages. Knopf. $10.95.
 
    Here is how Michael Crichton describes Amy, the principal love
object in "Congo": "She could be coy, she responded to flattery, she
was preoccupied with her appearance, loved make-up, and was very fussy
about the collar of the sweaters she wore in the winter."  Although
she is quite short, Amy weighs 140 pounds.  She has a vocabulary of
620 words, which is remarkably good for a gorilla.
    Karen Ross, the other female in "Congo," is almost six feet tall,
attractive but ungainly. She is a mathematical prodigy, brilliant but
insensitive, determined to succeed at any cost.  Her feminine wiles
have been confined to technology.
    Peter Elliot, a young professor working in the field of primate
communication, has taught Amy to talk - not in words, but sign lan-
guage. His whole life is dominated by Amy.  By the time you have read
this far in "Congo," you will be wondering how Peter and Karen are
going to be brought together, and how this will affect Amy.
    Crichton is the Alvin Toffler of suspense fiction, and "Congo"
might be described as a romance of technology.  Computers and all
kinds of electronic equipment are pitted against the primeval, in
the form of gorillas, the rain forest of the Congo, and a volcano.
    Crichton is a virtuoso of research. He can describe the look
and feel of a rain forest as well as the latest safari gadgetry.
When Karen and Peter go to the Congo with Amy, their equipment
suggests an L. L. Bean catalog of the next century.
    Readers of suspense novels seem to be willing to absorb any
amount of information in the process of being entertained, and
Crichton has quite a lot to say about theories of communication,
about the information industry and technology, about computers,
the warfare of the future, and other such arcane subjects.  He
also describes a typical Pygmy meal, the current status of canni-
balism in Africa, shooting rabbits in a rubber raft and fighting
off a murderous attack by hippos.  At one point, Amy saves Peter
from a male gorilla by treating him as her infant.
    "Congo" also includes an ancient city buried in the jungle and
guarded by a tribe of "missing links" who talk by sighing and crush
intruders' heads between stone spoons.  We've come a long way from
Tarzan.
    It would not be fair to tell you who wins the battle of the
sexes. It is enough to say that both Amy and Karen are formidable
females. For these and all the usual reasons, "Congo" is very
amusing reading, even if, in its originality, Crichton denies us
some of the vulgar gratifications of the genre.

.....

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1980 0109-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: Budrys review of Bradbury collection
    
             THE STORIES OF RAY BRADBURY. Knopf. $17.95.
    
                           By Algis Budrys
           (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

      (Algis Budrys writes Book Week's science fiction column.)
    
    There are two ways to look at the work of Ray Bradbury.  One is
to remember how it was: to return to the old friends of youth, when
these stories were beautiful, perceptive and spoke of important
things.  The other is to look at them as they are now: elegant, but
a little shallow; obvious; sentimentalized.
    To do the latter is to deny the child still within us.  Not to
do it is to deny the child's long struggle to become an adult. What
to do?
    Bradbury peers quizzically out of the jacket photo, and, start-
lingly, displays a strong resemblance to James Thurber's customary
expression. Correlations: Thurber, out of Columbus, Ohio, with his
stories of put-upon, soft-spoken, dreaming men preserving few traces
of simple goodness in the face of management directives from bulky,
sensible women.  Mother-and-son stories.  Bradbury, out of Waukegan
and the part of Southern California that's like Waukegan, with his
Mars that's like an adolescent boy's room.
    The parents see the room as cluttered and come barging in to
institute reform. The boy sees each object as precious and beautiful,
like shells on a beach, though eroded by time and use.  Cast there
by wind and water, they lie where they ought to be.  Move even one,
call it ugly, one of them ugly, and the entire beach is ruined.
Parent-and-child stories.
    There are a hundred of them here, beginning with the 1943 stories
that became the early Bradbury books - "The Martian Chronicles," "The
Illustrated Man," "Dark Carnival."  Uncle Einar, with his leathery
wings, his dreadful power, and his affectionate kindness, from the
1946 "Mademoiselle." The Mexican stories, such as "The Next in Line,"
in which the American tourist wife realized that she has failed to
acquire the rights of an adult; that her husband and, more important,
great arbitrary managerial forces will pluck her from her own dreams,
kill her, wither her and embed her in a catacomb mosaic.
    How can we say there's no true art and no force in these stories?
When we found them as children, they spoke to the thing parents never
visibly grasp, just as Thurber speaks to the same thing: we spend most
of our lives as pawns.
    Thurber's aging men are no longer adult-past it, if they were ever
in it; manipulatable objects.  Bradbury's children not only are not
yet adult but may, unless they are very resourceful and especially
adamant, be pipelined directly into becoming Thurber men or Thurber
women trapped into lives in which their own dreams must be subordi-
nated to the task of supervising Thurber men.
    And the great horror on whose brink the Bradbury children poise
is that the apparent only choice is to bow down and let oneself be
arranged or else to become a heedless, insensitive arranger. To give
up childhood is to opt for becoming the keeper of a catacomb.
    And they are we.  Only in part, of course.  Life is too various,
too flexible, too multifarious for a child to have appraised it all.
We are not all advancing toward becoming Walter Mitty, with his errand
for puppy biscuit, and Mrs. Mitty, with her errand for keeping Walter
Mitty from wandering out into the traffic.  Right?  Can we all see
that?  It's not simplistic, as Bradbury makes it.
    But when we are a little older, perhaps it will be, again.
    There's no one for whom to review this book. Adolescents are not
concerned whether Bradbury is an important figure of some importance
in "belles lettres." It's evident to them that he is. And he's one of
the few who is their friend, and you don't analyze your friends.  As
for you and me, poised here in the hiatus between the initiatory and
the terminal stages of helplessness, each of us works out his or her
own appraisals of what's useful and what's not. And those old gaffers
over there, whom we love, respect and tend - what does it matter what
they think?
    Bradbury is an overblown stylist, an sentimentalist whose work
is better remembered unre-read.  And remembered, and remembered.
He is a showy and euphuistic storyteller who is forever making
tempests out of zephyrs, who plays on anguishes doomed to be seen
for the simple glandular secretions they are, just as soon as the
glandular secretions slow down. None of those in power over their
own lives will find much to approve of in these stories.
    So don't ask me what Bradbury's doing these days. He's beginning
to look like James Thurber. He's out there looking for the perfect
parent and the perfect child. He's doing whatever we're doing. It's
no longer 1943, and we're all engaged in serious business.

------------------------------

LLOYD@MIT-AI 11/15/80 11:24:12 Re: SF-Lovers Logo

Good communications involves the maximum transfer of information while
utilizing minimum bandwidth (this is also the concept in white space
ads).  Based on this premise, I suggest a button with nothing but an
'@' sign on it.  It is too plain to attract too much attention from
non-involved parties, but it very clearly announces net involvement
to those in the know.

                                        Brian Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1980 1801-EST (Friday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  Altmode

Re: Escape-Escape-foo as opposed to Alt-Alt-foo.

Now that it is a moot point:

First:
    Escape, due to the proliferation of Emacs I think, has come to be
pronounced Meta. Therefore, Meta-Meta-foo is now as easy to pronounce
as Alt-Alt-foo.

Second:
    I have heard people use the Meta pronounciation in place of the
Escape even in conversations not related to Computer Science.

                                -Doug
P.S. Let sleeping dogs lie.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1980 0929-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Alts (a la mode)

     I have just become the proud possessor of a new IBM 3101
terminal.  This has introduced a totally new meaning to the
ALT key.  On this baby, what the rest of the world knows as the
CONTROL key is labelled "ALT". And to make life interesting, for
the otherwise bored typist, it is located just to the right of
the space bar. I don't want to hear any comments along the lines
of "people who get IBM terminals deserve whatever they get," if
you please.
        Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 NOV 1980 0715-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #138
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 17 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:
               LosCon Ride, SF TV - Cosmos & Star Trek,
  What Happens at a Con? - Comics Con, SFL Proposal, TESB - Bloopers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

RMS@MIT-AI 11/16/80 19:57:39 Re: Share ride to LOSCON

LOSCON is a science fiction convention in LA on Thanksgiving weekend.
I'd like to find people in the San Francisco area to share the ride
with.  We could go in your car or mine, or I could rent a plane.

------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 11/17/80 00:09:06 Re: Vangelis's music on TV, and Cosmos

The music of one of my favorite synthesizer artists, Vangelis, has
been used in several PBS productions: most recently Cosmos (parts
from the albums "Albedo 0.39" and "Heaven and Hell") and earlier
on Death of a Princess (Albedo 0.39).  What puzzles me is that
there were no credits given for the music on either of these shows.
Does anybody know why that is?  I can think of three possibilities:
1) ripoff, 2) Vangelis didn't WANT credit (?), or 3) the music
isn't "important" enough to deserve credit (again, ??)

Some thoughts on Cosmos itself: I've come to really enjoy this
show, despite Sagan's sometimes infuriating hand gestures (at
least his "cosmic awe" of the earlier installments has ebbed).
While the technical information is 99% old hat to SF types, Carl
has managed to present the historical aspects of science in a
way cohesive enough to keep my attention. Names like Kepler,
Copernicus, and Democritus haven't meant much to me before; I'd
read about them, be suitably impressed for a little while, and
promptly forget everything. I think Sagan's visuals and constant
tying-together of everything make it easier for the audience to
associatively recall the information in the series.  And the
music's real good, too.

        -leor

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1980 0141-EST
From: Jon Solomon <Solomon at RUTGERS>
Subject: Voyager Vs. Nomad.

     Does anyone remember the episode  of STAR TREK with Nomad,  which
was a "Space probe" sent out by Earth in perhaps the mid '60s or  '70s
(I don't remember if they gave an  approx date so close, or just  "end
of the  20th century"  which leaves  everything open)?  It  supposedly
became "merged"  with an  alien probe,  and it  thought Kirk  was  its
master (Creator was the term, I think).

     The recent Voyager activity  brings this episode  to mind, and  I
wonder how  much information  about  such plans  as Voyager  that  the
writers of the  STAR TREK episodes  had to work  with?  Did they  just
dream about such things that just "Happen to come true"??

(JSol)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 2254-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Comics convention

                 Two Thousand Expected at Convention
                          By JOHN J. MULLINS
                       Associated Press Writer

    BOSTON (AP) - It takes more than inflation to increase value 1,200
times in 40 years. It takes superheroes.
    A copy of "Movie Comics," published in the early 1940s and sold at
the time for 10 cents, was offered for $120 Saturday at the seventh
annual New England Comic Art Convention Captain America Superheroes'
Festival.
    Other books that once sold for 10 or 12 cents were available at
$60 and $70.
    "It's a comic book and nostalgia convention," said Don Phelps of
Plymouth, co-chairman of the event, adding it also embraced science
fiction, films and cereal box prizes.
    In addition to comic books, there were bubble gum cards, coins,
posters, small hardcover books and original comic book art for sale
or trade in a suite of rooms at the Sheraton-Boston Hotel.
    Martin Greim of Dover, the other co-chairman, said more than
2,000 people were at the two-day convention, which also includes
panel discussions by comic book artists and writers and a super-
heroes costume contest with a $50 prize.
    Those attending "range anywhere from kids 9 and 10 years old
right up to old adults, and I mean old adults," said Greim. "I've
seen guys 80 and 90 years old."
    Sitting behind a table of his own work was Howie Chaykin, a New
York artist and writer who works in science fiction and adult comics.
    "These people read the stuff because they have the same sort of
emotional addiction I have," he said. "I love the form and tolerate
the content."

------------------------------

Date: 16 November 1980 15:27-EST
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Alts (a la mode)

ALT on IBM equipment refers to "ALTernate", not "ALTmode".

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1980 0824-PST
From: Mike Peeler <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: ASCII

    Official schmofficial.  Being standard doesn't make ASCII perfect.
The Sail character set is a modified version of 1963 ASCII, and it has
its deficiencies.  Having neat characters like left-arrow and up-arrow
in place  of  underbar and  caret  is not  among  those  deficiencies.
Almost everyone uses the  caret as up-arrow,  simply because it's  the
closest ASCII comes to it.  In fact, without fancy graphics the  caret
(hacek, circumflex, or what-you-call-it) cannot be used in its  normal
ro^le because most terminals cannot place it above other letters.

    Underbar, on the other hand, is wunderbar.   Establishment-buckers
like MIT and  Stanford need not  do without it.   Standard ASCII  gets
very little mileage out  of ^X, normally only  good for taking up  the
space of two characters  on the terminal, but  the Sail character  set
recycles that code as underbar.  Isn't  it amazing what you can do  by
deciding to turn something useless into something useful?

    On another topic, the existence  of an infinity of universes  does
not imply the existence of all possible universes.  It has nothing  to
do with cardinality.   It's just  the way infinity  is, any  infinity.
That there are  an infinity  of odd numbers  does not  imply that  all
numbers are odd.   Some numbers, the  even numbers, were  left out  of
that infinity, the odd numbers.  So might some possible universes  get
left out of the infinity of universes realized.

    See y'all  in  the  next universe  over!   (Slower  traffic  merge
right!)

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/17/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
incongruities in TESB.  People who are not familiar with these movies
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1980 1627-EST
From: MJL at MIT-DMS (Matthew Jody Lecin)
Subject: now who are they trying to kid?

A dedicated SW fan and myself have noted the following:

Scene setup: Vader and Luke are dueling.  Luke leaps (^^^^) from the
pit and is making all kindsa wonderful NOISE hanging on the pipes.
Vader slashes and is rewarded with a face (does he have a face?) full
of steam. Augh! (Quote. Unquote.) Luke retrieves his sabre and swings
around CLOCKWISE toward HIS right and meets Vader's blade.  Luke's
sabre is on the LEFT of Vader's. They exchange a few blows. ("Obi-wan
has taught you well.  You have controlled your fear."  (Clash Clash
Clash))...Lukes sabre is STILL on the left.  THEN you get a change in
perspective from the right of Vader. The hum of sabre contact DOES NOT
change.  They do not break contact.  Lukes sabre is now on the RIGHT
side and Luke is pushing the OPPOSITE way from which he just was.

Taking the changes of perspective into account, this is STILL true:

   They went to lunch, came back and forgot EXACTLY how they were
standing.  They resumed fighting and were in the wrong positions!
This (the assumption they went to lunch) is mere speculation. But
there was a "cut" there and they do mess it up royally. Sigh. Did
anyone else notice this? I think a discussion of such incongruities
is in order...

                                                Mjl at DMS
                                                Anm at AI

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 NOV 1980 0705-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #139
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 18 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:
 SF Muzak - TESB, SF Books - Stan Lee Comic? & Another Alien Sherlock,
    Technology - Bussard Ramjet, SF TV - Cosmos & Lost Land Writers
             & Shogun & Star Trek, SF Movies - Star Trek
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1980 1905-PST (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: SW hits the big time!

So there I was sitting in my local eating establishment, when
the Muzak suddenly impinged on my consciousness.  It took me a
few seconds to figure out WHY I had suddenly noticed it, when I
realized I was listening to "Luke's Theme" from SW, arranged in
typical Muzak style. Amazing.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

RUSSEL@MIT-AI 11/18/80 01:09:39

A Quick Query -- 

Rumor control has it that Stan Lee (you know Stan Lee, wizard of
Comic Book Land) has just brought out a new series starring Saint
Francis of Asissi.  Does anyone know if this is fer real?  (Think
of the possibilities!!!)

- Dan

------------------------------

Date: 17 NOV 1980 1638-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Sherlock story

   There's also Anderson's "The Martian Crown Jewels", in which
a Martian named Syalock is consulted (\very/ privately, to avoid
embarassment to Earth) by two Earthmen whose names are similar to
Gregson and Lestrade. As trivial as the Hoka stories, but also as
amusing.

------------------------------

Date: 17 November 1980 1735-EST (Monday)
From: Jeffrey A. Lomicka <Jeffrey.Lomicka at CMU-10A> (C425JL12)
Subject:  Bussard Ramjet & Cosmos

It seems that @i(Cosmos) is giving us just enough information to
read science fiction.  Mr. Sagan has described to us the concept of
scooping up interstellar hydrogen into a fusion reaction chamber as
a means of fueling an interstellar spacecraft.  Such a craft would
accelerate toward the destination for half the journey, turn around,
and run in reverse the rest of the way.  Larry Niven's Known Space
was explored this way.

The problem, which neither Carl Sagan or Larry Niven has approached,
is that the ramscoop is "looking the wrong way" to pick up any fuel.
Presumably, the reaction chamber must be turned independent of the
ramscoop, or something, so that the ramscoop is still looking forward
when the engine is running in reverse. Ideas?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1980 at 0010-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ COSMOS COMMENTS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've been only mildly enjoying it, and then I sat thru 2 1/2 hrs
of pre- and early Saturn flyby last Tuesday night -- and realized
how poorly appreciative of Cosmos I'd been!

My favorite so far might have been the Martian one, except for
2 things: wondering if the simulated Valley of the Mariners was
accurately proportioned... it didn't \feel/ right; and, the *%#$&
sitting beside me who shouted as Sagan's 'ship' went careening
down that canyon, "Use the Force, Luke!"

But from the very 1st show, it's been the music which has most
impressed me -- so VERY right for what's on the screen that one
has to almost consciously attend to it to appreciate how right
it is.  It's great having knowledgeable SF-L'ers identify it.
Just which of the recordings mentioned is the "impressiveness
of the starry universe" one, with those gorgeously sonorous
piano chords?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1980 20:00:02-PST
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: Cosmos

I, too, have found myself increasingly interested in Cosmos, mostly
for the conceptual simplicity on things I already understand and, more
importantly, some fantastic visual data.  I have to mind a nonce when
he showed a sequence of shots by Voyager approaching Jupiter, which
gave an animation of Jupiter turning in the sky and its moons orbiting
it.  That was lovely.
                Ken

P.S. Boy, it's good to be back. Somebody up at LBL hit the baud-rate
     switch on our IMP and we were listening at the wrong rate for
     quite a while, until somebody thought to check it.  Sometimes
     I'm embarassed to be around here.
                KCA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1980 2025-PST
From: Alan at LBL-Unix (Alan B. Char (CC))
Subject: Ben Bova and Larry Niven writing cartoons

I had read that Larry Niven inherited some independent wealth, and
didn't NEED money. This affected his writing (either positively or
negatively).  I forget exactly where I read this, but I believe it
was BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS, edited by Spider Robinson. Now, I
don't know what Ben Bova's financial situation is like, but he does
seem to occupy a lucrative position with OMNI (admittedly after the
cartoon episodes were written).  --Alan

------------------------------

Date:  18 November 1980 01:27 est
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS  at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Shogun

The Nov. 17 New York Times had an article on the Japanese
reception of the 2.5 hour movie which recently opened there. It
is not doing better than 1/3 as well as Kagemusha but is seen as
a sign of heightened foreign interest in Japan and that some of
the worst Japanese stereotypes are vanishing.  (They weren't the
good guys in WWII.)  On the other hand many Japanese feel that
the film is both hard to follow and misunderstands many Japanese
customs.  It also overplays the bloodiness a bit.

On the other hand trading companies are sending their employees to
see it because, "Knowledge of the plot is a must for conversations
with foreign businessmen coming here."

                              - sas

P.S. Does anyone know if the new translation of The Tale of Genji
     is better than the old one?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1980 1219-PST (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Trek and Empire

I think any intelligent person could have predicted the unmanned
probes we are now seeing would occur about now -- at least if you
were doing your predicting in 1968 or so. There is a joke I could
put in this space, but I will restrain myself.

As for the Empire spatial problem.  Oh well, Continuity blew it
again.

--Lauren--

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/18/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
"The Changeling" episode of TV's Star Trek and Star Trek:TMP.  Anyone
who is not familiar with these shows may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 11/17/80 11:01:38
Re: Star Trek Nomad episode (spoiler for STtMP?)

     In the episode referred to by Jon Solomon, the earth probe which
was originally sent out to search for simple life forms, has merged
with an alien probe (whose original mission I can no longer remember).
The merged probe now thinks that its mission is to seek out life forms
and "sterilize" out all imperfections (which of course includes the
"carbon units"(man)).
     The probe does think that Kirk was its creator; it seems that
the person who originally designed the probe had the last name Kirk
also. When Kirk finally realizes what is going on, we are "treated"
to another unfortunate example of a computer going ape shit when
confronted with a paradox as Kirk talks it into hysteria.  After
Kirk convinces the probe to "sterilize" itself, it is transported
into "deep space" just before it self-destructs.
     I do not know if the writers of this episode knew of the Voyager
project when they wrote it, however we can see that this plot (the
merging of a earth based probe with alien hardware) is reused in
STtMP.  In the case of the later, it is obvious that the Voyager
project was in the minds of the writer (in this case, Roddenberry
himself).
     Even though parts of the plot of STtMP were a rehash of the
episode described above, I enjoyed the movie IMMENSELY.  Anyone
who thought that the movie should be other than a good Roddenberry
episode combined with a production budget far in excess of anything
possible in the TV series was, in my opinion, expecting too much.
     This reminds me, does anyone know the status of the NEW Star
Trek episodes that were supposed to be filmed for TV?
        Greg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 NOV 1980 0751-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #140
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 19 Nov 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:
     Stan Lee Comic, SF Music - Cosmos, SF TV - Lost Land Writers,
    SF Movies - ST:tMP, What happens at a Con? - GoH Query Results,
            SFL Proposal, SF Books - TESB & Mythconceptions
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1980 08:36 PST
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC

The St. Francis comic book is not a series; it's a largish one shot
75 cents comic book, mostly sold to Catholic schools.  Religious
comics books have been around for a long time, purportedly this
one's only special because it's of a much higher quality than your
usual educational or advertising comic. I haven't seen it -- just
happened to read a full-page article about it in a Sunday San
Francisco Chronicle. The City's patron saint and all. Personally,
I think the implications are just about NIL.
                        Teri

------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 11/18/80 21:08:45 Re: Cosmos/Vangelis

For HJJH, and any others who might be interested: The opening theme
music for Cosmos comes from the Vangelis album "Heaven and Hell"
(check both imports and domestic). It's the part right before Jon
Anderson comes in with his vocal.
        -leor

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1980 0644-PST
From: Mike Peeler <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Why Larry Niven writes

    No doubt he craves fame, glory, prestige, and a place in history,
but--whether he needs it or not--he's in it for the money.  Just ask
him.

------------------------------

Date: 18 NOV 1980 1242-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Niven & money

  Larry Niven dedicated one of his early books (I think the first
collection of short stories (NEUTRON STAR?) to a rich relative who
left him enough money that (as Niven put it) he was able to quit
work and make in a year all the mistakes that learning writers who
have to have other work take several years to make.
  I have heard that David Gerrold was connected with LAND OF THE
LOST; as he's on good terms with both Bova and Niven (the last I
heard) it would have been less difficult (as well as smart) to get
them to write for the show.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1980 at 1228-PST
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: "Stolen" plot of STtMP

     It is distressing for a classicist such as myself to discuss
the public media but...

     I attended a seminar given at the Sherwood Oaks Experimental
College in Hollywood, just for grins. It was about a 6-parter, and,
in the typical Sherwood Oaks tradition, was short on content and
long on stars.  One of the sessions had Alan Dean Foster, who gave
out that he had, in fact, seen only about ten ST episodes in his
life before (or after!) writing the 30-page "story treatment"
which became the nucleus of the script for STtMP.

     Now, this man is a professional writer, of the "read-ten-and-
write-one" school.  None of the episodes he saw (and there were
about three with vaguely similar plots) happened to be one which
touched on the plot elements of the movie.  It seems to have been
a case of "great minds run in the same channel, and so does muddy
water". Whatever else you might think of Foster's abilities as a
writer, I don't think he's a plagiarist.

     By the way, after grilling everyone from the director to the
special effects crew, I finally decided that in fact, the picture's
lack of quality was no one's fault in particular, with the possible
exception of the scriptwriter's.  This combined with the "blind-
bidding" system, which forced Paramount to say, on several occasions,
"How many more millions do you want? You can have it all, but not one
more day added to the schedule!"  Which, of course, is Paramount's
fault.  But then, if they hadn't had a new president who loved ST,
there would never have been a picture at all, now would there?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 at 0017-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^ MOST ATTRACTIVE GoH RESPONSE, REVISITED ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A couple late lists came in, resulting in the following configur-
ation when (Elgin and) the names with only one vote were removed.

(Don't send any more, tho!)

   xxx    Bester, Alfred          xxxxx  Hogan, James
   xxxx   Brunner, John           xxxx   LeGuin, Ursula K.
   xxx    Cherryh, C.J.           xx     McCaffrey, Anne
   xx     Clement, Hal            xxx    McKillip, Patricia
   xx     Cooper, Susan           xxxxx  Niven, Larry
   xxx    Dickson, Gordon         xx     Pournelle, Jerry
   xxxx   Ellison, Harlan         xxx    Schmitz, James H.
   xxxxxx Forward, Robert         xxxxx  Varley, John
   xxxx   Garrett, Randall        xxx    Vinge, Joan
   xx     Gerrold, David          xx     White, James
                    xxxx   Zelazny, Roger

As is evident, there're no great changes, but a con committee
pondering GoH's might find it somewhat more illuminating. The
surprising thing is that Herbert still got only a single vote
from the about 20 people who cared enough to respond.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1980 at 2226-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CARET = HACEK?  NYET! NYET! NYET! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In re Mike Peeler's discussion of ASCII:

Caret = circumflex, yes.  But not the hacek (pronounced HOTcheck).
A hacek looks like an UPSIDEDOWN caret.  (It is a diacritic used,
mostly in Eastern European languages, some transliterations of
Cyrillic, or phonetic scripts, typically to indicate a "slushy"
quality.  An S, C, or Z with a hacek would sound pretty much like
what we would spell with SH, CH, or ZH in English.)

------------------------------

Date: 18 NOV 1980 1231-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: diacritics

  The caret (up-arrow, circumflex, etc.) is \not/ a hacek!  The
hacek is a wedge with the point \downwards/.  (As I remember too
well after having to sing a mass in Old High Slavonic.)

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/19/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Mythconceptions and a TESB cartoon book.  It discussing the book it
includes a spoiler.  People are not familiar with TESB may not wish to
read any further.


------------------------------

DP@ML 11/18/80 01:23:25 Re: Tesb Pop-Up, Mythconceptions

  I Just returned from Philcon. I saw two rather amusing things at one
of the book dealers tables.

1. A pop up cartoon book for TESB. It was rather ridiculous, and made
   real attempts at cute. It was rather inaccurate however, in the now
   famous fall scene, Luke has all four appendages.

2. The good thing at the con, was mythconceptions, by Bob Asprin is
   now finally out from Starblaze..(1 year late) It is as funny as
   the previous Another Fine Myth [see SFL V2 #27,33,72], Skeeve now
   has a job as court magician in a nearby. Aahz is now disquized as
   the assistant, and of course they have a reasonably impossible
   task to do. I enjoyed it.
                                        jeff

PS. Another new item, Ozzie has towels with "DON'T PANIC" in large
    friendly letters imprinted on them.....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 NOV 1980 0947-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #141
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 20 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:
 SF Books - Stan Lee Comic & Uncertainty Principle & Dr. Lao & Varley,
       SF TV - Lost Land Writers & Cosmos, Filksongs - Star Wars,
                          SF Movies - ST:tMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  20 November 1980 00:25 est
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS  at SAI-Prime)

St. Francis comics are supposedly real.  I was more impressed by
the Messalina strip which has been coming out in Italy.

------------------------------

Date: 19 NOV 1980 1414-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: St Francis comic book

   According to a squib in yesterday's GLOBE, this is indeed a series
rather than a one-shot, and is a collaboration between Stan Lee and
one of the leading creative lights of the governing organization of
the Franciscan monks (would you believe Franciscans Inc.?  Well, it
was something like that).

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 1108-PST
From: Achenbach@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: book review

     The Uncertainty Principle -- Dmitri Bilenkin

     This collection of short stories was released with a series
called "Best of Soviet SF".  It contains 18 stories of very mixed
quality.  About half of the stories have such a predictable twist
at the end its almost embarrassing.  Unfortunately, the title story,
"The Uncertainty Principle" is one of these. Several of the stories,
however, are very good.  "Intelligence Test" offers an interesting
(though implausible) alternative to evolution.  "The Man Who Was
Present" is a variant of a PSI story.  A couple of the stories are
funny and clever. "Modernized Hell" has the devil done in by Hell's
own bureaucracy.  My favorite story is "Time Bank", an innovation
that allows you literally to save time (you think "half hour
deposit" and disappear for half an hour).
     All in all, if you can find this book for a couple of bucks
like I did, its worth it.  Don't be discouraged by the first few
stories. 

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 (Wednesday) 2100-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: I read one of the most bizarre books that I have ever read

last night... The Circus of Dr. Lao (by Charles G. Finney).

Circa 1935(4?) this fantasy involves a circus which visits a hick
town in Arizona. The circus is run by a weird little Chinaman and
is comprised primarily of mythical beings (Unicorns, Chimeras,
Mermaids, etc).  It just has to be a metaphore for SOMETHING --
I wish I could figure out what it is meant to represent [indirect
question].  Among one of the more interesting features of Dr. Lao
(scratch the "among") is that when he is telling someone off he
uses broken English with a Chinese lilt -- however, when he is
speaking of his animals or telling an anecdote he uses very
clear English.

The book also has a rather long complete cast of characters at
the end some of which are extremely peripheral to the story and
the biographics accompanying each is very strange -- also very
peripheral.

I hear that there is a film of the same name (probably of the same
topic). The copy that I have has some drawings whose flavor matches
the text (like the author/artist has been smoking funny little
cigarettes).  I would indicate the artist and book publisher but I
don't have the copy here.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 10:54 PST
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Cosmic Head Crash?

                    ------------------------------

   From: Horning.PA

   Surely it can't be just coincidence that, the more detailed the
   images of Saturn's rings become, the more they resemble a magnetic
   disk surface that has had a "close encounter of the worst kind"
   with its flying head!

   I can think of several explanations, all of them sinister.

   MORAL: If you care about your data, back it up on Jupiter.

   Jim H.

   * G E B fans: Note the significance of the "eternal braid" found
        in the F ring of the Golden Planet.

   * Ringworld fans: Note that a circular ring cannot be both gravi-
        tationally stable and rigid.  (I presume this is the problem
        Niven addresses in The Ringworld Engineers, which I haven't
        read yet.)

                    ------------------------------

All this Voyager/Saturn activity has a Varleyesque feel to me.  It
really resonates with both Titan and the Ophiuchi Connection stuff.
I wonder if it will show up in his future work.  Speaking of Titan,
it surprised me when I read it that he had ventured a specific number
for the count of Saturn's known moons as of 2025 --- especially a
number as low as 11.  It seemed likely to me that Voyager would turn
up more moons, as it has, making his book dated almost as soon as
it appeared.  That kind of specificity on real-world statistics is
usually a bad idea in sf.

------------------------------

Date: 19 NOV 1980 1412-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: correction

   The book in which Niven describes the source of his money is
A HOLE IN SPACE, which is dedicated to Edward Lawrence Doheny.
I have no idea whether this is a relative or the same Doheny as
in the Teapot Dome mess under Harding (can't even remember the
first name of the Doheny that was involved in that).

P.S.  \I've/ never heard him say he was in it for the money; I
      suspect that if he ever did he was simply giving a short
      answer to a complicated and invasive question.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 18:55:24-PST
From: E.jeffc at Berkeley
Subject: COSMOS and Carl Sagan

A lot of talk has been going on about the flaws in Carl Sagan's
COSMOS series. These flaws center on either Sagan's unusual speaking
style and acting(?) abilities, or the show's contents.  I certainly
agree that he looks stupid when displaying the "awed" look; however,
the complaints about the content of his shows are not justified. Yes,
he is short on reasons and long on visual effects, and, yes, he talks
as if the viewer did not know the obvious. What we are all forgetting
is this: the average person doesn't know what we would consider
"obvious". We should realize that Carl Sagan has his work cut out for
him making science digestible for the average person.  A big gripe
is his lack of explanations and providing all information as "given".
This is due to the belief that science involves explaining why things
are as they are.  Certainly, COSMOS ignores this premise, but that
doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose: a person must be aware of
something's existance before he can wonder "why".  COSMOS makes the
public aware of the existance of the world around us as scientists
see it.  Once they are aware and wondering, then they will seek to
find out "why".

        - Jeff Cohen

------------------------------

DP@MIT-ML 11/20/80 01:10:16 Re: new filk

   This is a new filksong that I heard at Philcon. the tune is the
theme from Star Wars, the title and author are unknown.

        C C  CC
        Star wars

        F       C C    C
        made me a rich man

        CF        C C   C
        bought me a new car

        A#           GGGG
        paid off the house

                                enjoy
                                jeff

The chords are from an old Boskone song contest. I found 2 different
versions, so I picked one.  If someone has a better set, or sheet
music, a copy would be appreciated.

------------------------------

BARMAR@MIT-MC 11/19/80 21:09:20 Re: "Stolen" plot of STtMP

    From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)

         It is distressing for a classicist such as myself to discuss
    the public media but...

         I attended a seminar given at the Sherwood Oaks Experimental
    College in Hollywood, just for grins.  It was about a 6-parter,
    and, in the typical Sherwood Oaks tradition, was short on content
    and long on stars.  One of the sessions had Alan Dean Foster, who
    gave out that he had, in fact, seen only about ten ST episodes in
    his life before (or after!) writing the 30-page "story treatment"
    which became the nucleus of the script for STtMP.

Alan Dean Foster is not that unfamiliar with Star Trek. Several years
ago, there was a Saturday morning Star Trek cartoon, and Foster wrote
a series of books that short-storyized them (like James Blish did with
the real episodes).  He had to have seen about fifteen or sixteen of
them, as there were nine books, and most had two or three stories in
them.  I read a few of them, and he tried to delve further into the
characters than either the real series or the cartoons ever did.  I
think that Foster was full of BS when he spoke to that seminar, unless
he doesn't count reading scripts as seeing an episode, or he doesn't
count the cartoons (many people don't).

                                Barry

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 0915-PST
From: TAW at SU-AI
Subject: ST and Alan Dean Foster 

My erratic and (admittedly) poorly organized memory won't let me
believe that Alan Dean Foster's only association with Star Trek was
watching 10 episodes and then writing the STMP script (though from
the script itself I am tempted to believe). Didn't he write (edit?)
a bunch of the Star Trek Log books??  James Blish did a bunch, but
I lost track of the whole thing after that.
     A word about the STMP book.  I just read it, having borrowed
it from a friend.  I usually don't like movie novelizations, but
I found the book to explain a LOT of things that I didn't get
from the movie.  Had the movie followed the book (as it clearly
was intended to do.  There were no deviations from the book, only
editing omissions) I would have enjoyed it a lot more. An example:
the Transporter incident, which occured very early in the movie,
was in chapter 3 of the book. And the OTHER person in the trans-
porter (not the Vulcan) was a reasonably important character in
the book!!!  How about a STMP Special Edition???
 -- Tom

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/20/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It compares
the plots of ST:TMP and the TV episode "The Changeling".  People who
are not familiar with these shows may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 11/18/80 10:36:24

Actually it was Jackson Roykirk, who invented NOMAD. NOMAD was hit
or hit an asteroid and was severly damaged.  It met with TAN RU,
who managed the fusing of the hardware.  NOMAD's original mission
was to seek out planetary bodies, take soil samples, sterilize
them and return to Earth - something it OBVIOUSLY wants to do in
"The Changeling."  NOMAD refers to TAN RU as "the Other" and it
was in the Vulcan Mind Meld that Spock gets into with NOMAD that
the name TAN RU emerges.

In ST:TMP, VoyaGER Six (V'GER) according to Spock "falls into what
used to be known as a black hole". It emerges on the "far side of the
galaxy" and finds (drifts into/onto) the world of mechanical creatures
we hear about from Spock's retelling of what he saw in V'GER and the
one real clear picture of this metal planet all covered in lights when
Spock takes his little jaunt in the spacesuit.  This mechanical planet
repairs the now worn/torn V'GER and gives it enough power to fullfill
its task: ACCUMULATE ALL THE KNOWLEDGE IT POSSIBLY CAN AND RETURN TO
EARTH.  Which V'GER does.  V'GER becomes "aware" during the process
- and seeking the only knowledge it seems not to have - what it means
to be ALIVE, it comes back to Earth, seeking its long gone NASA
creators. 

{Matt} [Trekkie]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 NOV 1980 0906-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #142
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 21 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Stan Lee Comic & Mother Goose & Dragon's Egg & Dr. Lao,
        SF TV - Carson Cosmos & LA is SF & Lost Land Writers,
                          SF Movies - ST:tMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  21 November 1980 01:22 est
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  St. Francis

Supposedly he is being billed as Little Brother of the Universe
and the artwork is being done by the guy who drew or draws the
Conan strip (something with a B). I can just see Little Brother
right now.  "Unhand that snail darter and take your dam with
you.", he says menacing with his hiking stave. The construction
workers advance on him as long time Senators loom in the back-
ground watching the confrontation.  He swings his staff and
demolishes a bulldozer sending it careening into the river ...

------------------------------

Date: 20 NOV 1980 0923-EST
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: St. Francis of Assissi

According to my local Boston comic store - the Million Year Picnic,
yes, Stan Lee (That is Marvel) will be publishing a St. F of A
"Superhero" comic. (Shades of SHAZAM) in which St. F gains powers
via, what else, prayer.

Awhile ago a discussion arose about the Space Child's Mother Goose
and I replyed to (I believe) Harris at someplace, I forget where,
which is ;why this is going via SF Lovers that I would get
publishing Info.

Space Child's Mother Goose was most recently published by Simon and
Schuster, Rockefeller Center 630 Fifth Ave.  NY NY 10020.  (this is
the 6th paperback printing and hopefully, is still available.

It was written by Fredrick Winsor and Illustrated by Marian Parry.

My apologies to Harris for losing his address and for taking so
long to dig out the info.

from gfh@cca (gail hormats)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1980 at 2310-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ DRAGON'S EGG Cover, Revisited ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A while back, I was taken to task over my suggestion that the web-
like design on the dustjacket of DRAGON'S EGG, also used in ads,
bore a ver-r-r-r-ry suspicious resemblance to the window in the
Millennium Falcon's cockpit, and the one Luke got blown through
in TESB.

"No, no," I was told, "You dummy, that's a standard polar projection
map!"

But, the version of the map on p. 261 (presumably supplied by Dr.
Forward himself) has spokes continuing within the inmost circle,
so there is not the resemblance to SW/TESB windows.  The one on
the cover and used in ads has NO spokes in the center circle.

Even tho the evidence indicates Dr. Forward's innocence, might not
the jacket's designer or artist have been shrewdly taking advantage
of STAR WARS' aura in a subtle way?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 0038-EST
From: LARKE at MIT-DMS (James L. Groebe)
Subject: Dr. Lao

Indeed, Dr. Lao served as the basis for a movie - George Pal's
'The Seven Faces of Dr Lao.' Directed by Pal for MGM in 1964,
it starred Tony Randall. I haven't actually seen it, so I can't
comment on how faithfully it reproduced your book's atmosphere.
Script adaptation by Charles Beaumont.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1980 0816-PST (Thursday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Dr. Lao, I presume?

   The film "The 7 faces of Dr. Lao" from the book "The Circus of
Dr. Lao" starred Tony Randall and, I seem to recall, Ray Harryhausen
effects.  It's a worthy film in its own right, but very different in
flavor and theme from the book, having been simplified and cleaned up
to turn it into a suitable-for-kids flick.
        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 November 1980 18:38-EST
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Carl Sagan

The other night Johnny Carson indicated that he almost had his
Sagan imitation down and gave a few devastatingly funny examples.
Apparently a take-off of COSMOS is in the works.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 0011-PST (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: KTLA goes bonkers

In two of the most bizarre programming decisions I have ever
witnessed, an independent station here in L.A. (KTLA - 5), has
gone SF bonkers.

This is the same station that for awhile was running three
Twilight Zones every weekday, and now runs Lost In Space on
Saturday and Sunday.  They still run Twilight Zone on a less
frequent basis, and also run Star Trek on weekends.

But get this: On Thanksgiving day, they will be having a Twilight
Zone Marathon! Solid Twilight Zone from 9 AM to 5 PM. 16 episodes.

But that is only half of their strangeness. That same evening, after
they've deluged us in Serling's masterpieces, they come right back
with the Science Fiction Marathon -- 19 hours of solid SF movies.

Below I include a listing of the included movies (in order) for those
of you in Southern California or on microwave/cable hookups (such as
those in parts of Texas).

THURSDAY -- 11 PM

Godzilla, Godzilla's Revenge, The Return of Giant Majin, Twilight
Zone (yeah, they stick an episode in at 3:45 A.M., according to TV
Guide. This may be an error, however), Magic Serpent.

FRIDAY -- 5:30 AM

(we continue): Attack of the Monsters, Destroy All Planets, Gamera
vs. Monster X, Monster Zero, War of the Gargantuas, Rodan, Mothra.

By now you may have detected a pattern in the films! Yes, indeedie,
they are all Japanese!  So if you have access to KTLA and are a
Japanese SF fan, YOU GOT IT MADE.

I might also mention that other stations, not to be outdone, are
scheduling other SF material, on a more sporadic basis, over this
same interval.  In fact, in an unbelievably cruel move, KCOP - 13
has scheduled a movie for Thursday night (Friday morning) at 2:30
that cuts right into the middle of KTLA's "The Return of Giant
Majin": "THE CREEPING TERROR" itself!  Sigh, such abundance: a
true Cornucopia of Cellulose.

I have a feeling that after Thursday/Friday, I may find myself
walking around in a daze (well, more of a daze than usual)
repeating:

"There is a fifth dimension, beyond that which is known to man.
It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science
and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears, and
the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination,
it is an area which we call 'The Twilight Zone'." Except that I'll
be saying it in JAPANESE.

Ta Tah.

--Lauren--

P.S. By the way, L.A. really IS the place to be for SF.  Loscon
     coming up, the KTLA SF spectaculars, and perfect weather
     (today was 80 degrees, clear, blue, no smog (at least where
     I am) ... a beautiful day.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 0058-PST (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: FLASH!  It's not PLAN 7, it's not PLAN 8, it's:

PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE. Yes, the original full-length film, voted
the worst film (of any kind) of ALL time, will appear this coming
Friday at 3 AM on KCOP - 13 in the Southern California markets.
You'll marvel to pie tin spaceships hanging from threads. You'll
be amazed at sophisticated aliens who have lines like: "All you
Earth people are idiots.  IDIOTS!"  You'll see Bela Lugosi in his
final movie performance, a performance which is so BAD it made the
REAL Count Dracula turn over in his coffin.

So don't miss it.  PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE.  It'll make you wonder
if outer space is all it's cracked up to be.

--Lauren--

I have this horrible feeling that some sort of SF-MOVIE-TV database
is becoming almost a necessity.  It is becoming too damned easy to
miss good (bad) films.  Comments?

--LW--

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 11/20/80 10:26:44 Re: changeling plot

     Thanks go to MJL@MIT-MC for his correction of my plot
description.  I have always been an avid ST fan, and have seen
every episode many times (as I am sure almost everyone reading
this list has) but my memory fails me at times.
     Hmmmm, now I'm sure I wanted to say something else in this
message, but WHAT was it?
        Oh well,
        Greg

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/21/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
A. D. Foster and some of the production problems of ST:TMP. People who
are not familiar with this movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1980 at 1151-PST
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: Foster and ST

     Yes, everyone at the seminar knew that Foster did a lot of
work on the animated ST, and no, no one (including Foster) was
counting that.  He mentioned the well-known adaptation of "The
Soft Weapon" and a deal of verbiage was spent by him and some
trekkers on this area, but it never came up when the story treat-
ment was being discussed. No one there ever considered whether or
not the treatment might have stolen from the animated series. And
yes, he really only did see ten episodes of the live series (or
so he said) at the time he wrote the treatment (which, remember,
was some time before the movie was filmed).

     The film editors were fun to talk to. They said that they
only got the special effects sequences for the fly-by of the
Enterprise in drydock and of V'Ger about two weeks before the
final cut was to be in the theatres.  You can imagine how much
sleep they got those two weeks.  They were so overjoyed to see
the footage that they couldn't bear to cut enough of it out;
hence the rather slow pacing of those two scenes.

     Hence, also, the choppiness of the rest.  Lots of the byplay
about the Deltan went out, and, you may recall, in front of V'Ger
Bones says "Hurry, Jim!  We only have ten minutes!"  This rather
mysterious remark has to do with the fact that on the cutting room
floor is a sequence where Kirk arms the Enterprise' engines to blow
in X minutes after they leave the ship, to try to take V'Ger with
them if they all get offed.  It ain't all the scriptwriter's fault,
you see. No human could have made a polished version in two weeks'
time.  Blame Robert Abel for sitting around in a race condition
when they should have been generating effects.

     That's why I attended the seminar, by the way: because I
had a very peripheral involvement with the film.  I was called
in to try to break (one part of) the deadlock at Abel. I failed.
Nothing can overcome bad management.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 NOV 1980 0752-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #143
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 22 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:
      Books - Dragon's Egg, SF TV - Lost Land Writers & Cosmos,
  What is SF? - Japanese Monster Movies, SF Music - Star Wars Xmas,
                SF Movies - Star Wars & Making ST:tMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 NOV 1980 0837-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: DRAGON'S EGG cover ripoff

     The cover design for DRAGON'S EGG was sent to me for approval
by the publisher in the fall of 1979, and the book was released in
hardcover in May 1980, while if my memory serves me, TESB didn't
come out until the summer of 1980.
     I notice that the spoked window with stars in it was stuck in
at the end of TESB, sort of like an afterthought. Do you suppose....

       Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date: 21 NOV 1980 0843-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Cancel last message

     I was thinking about the rotating galaxy scene in TESB, but
HJJH is right, there were plenty of scenes in SW of stars through
the cockpit window of the Millenium Falcon.  Will ask Judy-Lynn
del Rey next time I talk to her, and let you know what she says.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 09:44 PST
From: HOFFMAN at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Niven and Doheny

   The first time I heard Niven talk was about 1973 to a group
of about 20 in a classroom at USC within a few feet of the Doheny
Library on that campus.  Because of that building's presence, Niven
did mention he was related to the Dohenys (like I think he even said
he is a Doheny and was using his mother's maiden name, but I'm not
sure of that), and that he had indeed inherited money from them. Yes,
they are the Teapot Dome Dohenys.  -- Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1980 1339-EST
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Niven's Wealth

     In response to Chip Hitchcock and all the others who have been
speculating about Larry Niven's wealth:

     As Larry Niven or his business manager, Jerry Pournelle, would be
happy to tell you, yes Larry is related to the man who was behind the
Teapot Dome scandal of the Harding Administration.  I take it that he
was Larry's grandfather, since Larry is known for his quote about
"choosing your grandparents well."

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 0038-EST
From: LARKE at MIT-DMS (James L. Groebe)
Subject: Land of the Lost

Not only did David Gerrold work on 'Land of the Lost' (as a
story editor), but so did Star Trek's D.C. Fontana, as - if I
recall correctly - one of the show's producers. With some sci-fi
oriented talent such as that working for the show, it is no wonder
usually skeptical folks such as Niven might be willing to write
for kidvid. Actually, the show didn't seem that bad to me, given
the awful constraints of budget and time prevalent on Saturday
mornings.  They did manage to keep a very consistent universe
working on a weekly basis, and if it were looked at again these
days, in the aftermath of the D & D explosion, it might fit in
very well.
   In a recent Starlog column, Gerrold seemed to chalk up his
work on the series as most usefully a learning experience.

------------------------------

Date: 21 November 1980 12:10-EST
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Carson, Sagan, and COSMOS

Well, what can I say, The Mighty Carson Art Players had their shot
at Sagan last night.  If you missed it, you didn't miss much...

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 16:54:17-PST
From: E.jeffc at Berkeley
Subject: Japenese monster movies

   When I heard that KTLA was running 19 straight hourse of Japenese
"science-fiction" monster movies, it struck a nerve.  Is anyone here
willing to defend Godzilla as science fiction?  To my defense, I can
quote Isaac Asimov, who, in one of his editorials in Isaac Asimov's
Science Fiction magazine (yes, he has one), decried the use of
"sci-fi" as an abbreviation for "science fiction" and preferred the
use of "SF".  Sci-fi, he said, was a term for trashy stuff such as
Godzilla, and SF for stuff like Star Trek.  Unfortunately, I don't
have the issue with me so I have to rely on memory on what he said.
Any comments?

        - Jeff Cohen

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 0038-EST
From: LARKE at MIT-DMS (James L. Groebe)
Subject: How the Droid stole Christmas

Well, I suppose it was bound to happen. If the Muppets can have their
own Christmas album, if Alvin and the Chipmunks can get one too, it is
high time that there was delivered unto us a Star Wars holiday album.
I saw it tonight - 'A Star Wars Christmas', featuring Anthony Daniels
as C3P0 leading a large cast in the singing of holiday songs, old, and
- oh no - new. ('The First Christmas Sighting', for example.) Cute for
the kids, perhaps, but I'll sit this one out.

Deck The Halls with Advertising, as Stan Freberg used to say.

                  Larry

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 03:05:39-PST
From: sdcsvax!davidson at Berkeley
Subject: SW and TESB

One thing which bothers me greatly about both these films is the lack
of lip synchronization in most of the scenes, or avoidance of showing
the face of the speaker. Both movies seem to have been plotted in the
cutting room, and this is shown by the lack of consistency from cut
to cut, and the lack of local clues to what's supposed to be going on
(other than the dubbing).

I've been noticing this with more and more movies lately.  Such
movies seem to be mere collages with a soundtrack slapped on.  One
is penalized for active viewing. If the trend continues, those who
prefer not to turn their minds off will simply have to give up going
to movies. But then, I understand that its becoming customary to get
high before going to see a movie.  I wonder if film makers have
started taking that into account?

Greg (sdcsvax!davidson@berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1980 1232-PST (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: As the Enterprise sinks into the deep blue sea...

Mike O'Brien indeed did his best to break the Abel deadlock.  But no
force, however formidable, could have helped.  I know -- I'm the one
who called him in!

At the time, I was computer facility manager for Abel.  Not that I
had any computers to manage.  I was hired to manage a large UNIX
system which would be the heart of the effex operation.  The main
PDP-11 would download the various micros which controlled the actual
cameras.  At one point, even script control was planned to go through
the UNIX system. An E&S Picture System II graphics processor was also
to be included.

The problem is that there were continual delays in getting a real
machine. First it was going to be an 11/60 (yuchh!). Then I convinced
them an 11/45 would be better.  Then an 11/70.  But the damned things
never showed up! During this interval, they hired a FORTRAN programmer
from New Jersey who tried to convince management they didn't want an
advanced system like UNIX, they wanted a STANDARD like RSTS-E.  THAT
way they could use standard FORTRAN for everything! What a win! Also,
they could try talk DEC into giving them RSTS-E in exchange for a film
credit.

I called Mike in to try re-convince management that UNIX was the
way to go. By this time, the shop had broken into two factions: one
pro-UNIX (supporting me) and one pro-FORTRAN (supporting New Jersey).
I finally left in disgust.  A few months later, Abel was fired by
Paramount for a variety of reasons, but mainly because they had
gotten nothing done.  There is SOME justice in the world!

--Lauren--

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/21/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
RAH's THE ROLLING STONES and the Star Trek episode THE TROUBLE WITH
TRIBBLES. People who are not familiar with the novel or the TV episode
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1980 (Thursday) 0915-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON (David Rossien)
Subject: More ST plagerism(?)

I have always found the similarities between RAH's "Flatcats" in
THE ROLLING STONES and Gerrold's "Tribbles" in THE TROUBLE WITH
TRIBBLES to be more than just coincidence.  For the uninitiated,
Flatcats look EXACTLY like tribbles, except that they have three
tiny eyes in their fur.  They purr when stroked in a pleasing
manner, and, most importantly, they REPRODUCE like... well like
tribbles. The ROLLING STONES have an interesting time when they
bring one aboard their spaceship and then take off on a long
trip... it produces 8 little'uns, which in turn quickly produce
8 each... which...  Anyone who knows Gerrold, can you find out
if he knew about RAH's book... and in any event, if I was RAH I
would have screamed bloody murder....

                   -Dave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 NOV 1980 0810-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #144
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 23 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:
       SF Books - Stan Lee Comic & Sundered Realm & Dreammakers
       & Fall of Worlds & Divine Madness,  Corrections - hacek,
             SF Music - Star Wars Xmas, SF TV - Star Trek
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PCR@MIT-AI 11/23/80 03:35:22 Re: St. Francis Comic

I've read the St Francis Comic book.  It is a (reasonably) straight
telling of the life and times of St. Francis. It tells of his life as
what we would refer to as a "playboy" (spending his parent's money on
parties for his friends) until he gets a couple of visions and then
convinces the Pope to let him start a new religious order.  I'm not
ordinarily a religious type, but I did find it interesting reading.
Artwork was so-so, and the story seemed to skip over large chunks of
time.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1980 at 2356-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 
Subject: Books reviewed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ BEWARE: The Sundered Realm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   ...a pb recently out from Playboy Press, by Vardeman & Milan.

Of the "heroic fantasy" ilk, it's ridiculous and disgusting.  For the
princess to be rescued by the hero and make their way thru the alleys
of the Bespin-like city, mount her roc-size eagle to go to the ground,
and engage in an aerial archery battle, is fairly run-of-the-mill for
doughty heroines, but -- to do so right after having been raped by a
giant demon whose mere \teeth/ were as big as a man's fist???!!!


^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A (yawn) NEW NON-FICTION SF PAPERBACK ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 DREAM MAKERS -- The Uncommon People Who Write Science Fiction.
        Interviews by Charles Platt.  Berkeley.  $2.75.

Whether you'll like this, $3-worth, probably depends more on your
orientation within SF than on its merits.

I made my way through it, but sometimes it took some self-prodding.
The lack of interest-arousal may have been due to the interviewer's
selection of authors, few of which I had any particular prior
interest in.  Platt being of the British "New Worlds" coterie, the
high proportion of his fellow-countrymen is probably expectable.
But, the emphasis in selection was too much on the New Wave and
psychology-oriented authors for my taste.  (I go along with one of
remarks from Silverberg's interview, "We were all trying to use the
material of SF and carry it closer to [the literary].  I don't see
any reason why that should succeed; it seems almost folly to think
that it should, since SF is basically a mass-market category of
entertainment and we were trying to make something elitist".)

The authors interviewed are: Asimov, Disch, Sheckley, Vonnegut,
Stine, Spinrad, Pohl, Delany, Malzberg, Bryant, Bester, Budrys,
Farmer, VanVogt, Dick, Ellison, Bradbury, Herbert, Knight &
Wilhelm, Moorcock, Ballard, Tubb, Watson, Brunner, Benford,
Silverberg, Aldiss, Kornbluth's associates, and Platt himself.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt when he claims not to be
sexist, his personal preferences leave him with just the one
token woman, and she as an appendage to her husband.  He says
he tried to get more, but LeGuin declined. Too bad he couldn't
find any women of the august caliber of Stine (sorry, Roger)
or Bryant!

The interviews are accompanied by 2-1/8 x 1-3/4 inch photos,
except Platt's own, which is 1/4 in. larger in both dimensions.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ \WHO/ IS THIS FRANCINE MEZO? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  THE FALL OF WORLDS by Francine Mezo.  Avon.  November.  $2.50.

When you see a pb cover with the author's name in bright red letters
over an inch high, and the title letters in white, only a quarter of
an inch in height, but you never heard of the writer, it makes you
wonder. (The story doesn't read like a translation, nor is there any
entry for Mezo in Nicholls' SF ENCYCLOPEDIA, so this is seemingly
not an import.)

It looked like something for my SF female protagonists collection,
so I got it despite one of the most ridiculous cover pictures for
that type.  It's a fairly straightforward galactic-war story, the
first of 2 or more in a series.  It's flawed by what I suspect was
excessive editorial deletion of background data.  Particularly in
the big space battle at the end where you're not quite sure what
all those maneuvers are, what they accomplish, or how. Yet, there
was still something distinctly intriguing about the story. Partly
it may have been the groups of identical clones with conditioned
restrictions akin to Asimov's "Laws of Robotic".  Or perhaps it
was the clone-protagonist's development toward a sense of being
a human person despite those inbred restrictions.  The ending is
a downer, but with a sharp corruscation of hope.

\My/ hope is that UNLESS SHE BURN, "coming soon by this author" is
the sequel, and really does come soon.  Unaccustomedly, I ended up
really caring about that heroine.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1980 (Saturday) 2349-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: Zelazny and the mind/body dichotomy

   In the short story "Divine Madness" makes clear his belief that
there is a "mind" distinct from the chemical object -- the "brain".
It is clear that not only is the physics of his character's local
environment running in reverse but the physics of his body is doing
the same. He becomes less and less drunk, he goes back thru hangovers,
etc.  At the same time, the character's memory remains intact! He can
recall future experiences (those that he has just seen replayed in
reverse).  Thus, either he is dreaming in which case this all is
trivialized, or else his memory is not a direct function of the
physics of his body (brain).
  There is also, an interesting psychol-linguistic phenomonon assumed
in the same story -- the wholism of words during reading remains. That
is, in reading text backwards, the individual words are not reversed
phonetically, alphabetically, or otherwise.  This is probably correct
within PLing theory.
   For two brownie points, what was the character reading when the
story opens?

-- Shrager Jeff (Pennsylvania of University)

------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 11/19/80 19:26:22

            v
The word "hacek" is one of my favorite words.
I once had a conversation that went:

                           v,
She:  How do you spell "Dvorak" ?
                         v
Me: Dee, vee, owe, are-hacek, ey-accent, kay.

She: "Hock..." "hotch..." What was that?  How do you spell it?
                    v
Me: Eych, ey, see-hacek, ee, kay.


Also, far be it from me to miss out on correcting Chip Hitchcock,
even if it was a trivial mistake. The language you sang in, Chip,
was Old Church Slavonic, not Old High Slavonic, of which there is
no such. (yes...  I know...)  The stari slavonski name for this
language is "stari slavonski".

     --- Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1980 0738-PST
From: Mike Peeler <CSD.PEELER at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Dire critics

    My thanks to HJJH (UTexas)  and Chip Hitchcock (CCA) for  pointing
out that a hacek points down, instead of up like a caret does.  I knew
it all along --  I was just testing  you!  Actually, I (blush)  lapsed
for a moment and confused the hacek with the hat.  I use the hat a lot
more, you  see, and  uh, well,  if you  were to  pronounce hacek  like
hat-check...

    That reminds me of a singer I know who sight-reads flawlessly  and
has never failed to render -- not rend! -- any song we presented  her,
with the one exception  of, "I say  potato and you  say potato, I  say
tomato and  you say  tomato,  let's call  the  whole thing  off?"   We
explained the song to her, but, not right away...

    'Nuff said.  Read on!

------------------------------

RWK@MIT-MC 11/22/80 12:57:26 Re: SW and certain religious holidays

Wasn't Star Wars set in a time long, long ago, in a place far, far
away?  About the only connection possible between the SW universe
and Christmas is if that star the wisemen saw were related to the
destruction of Alderon, far, far, away, a long time ago.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/23/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss RAH's THE ROLLING STONES and the Star Trek episode THE TROUBLE
WITH TRIBBLES.  People who are not familiar with the novel or the TV
episode may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1980 1216-PST
From: Donald R. Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Flatcats and Tribbles [spoiler warning!]    

Gerrold addresses this question in his book about the writing of the
show.  (The book is called, of course, "The Trouble With Tribbles".)
He says he had read The Rolling Stones about 15 years earlier, but
was not consciously thinking of it when he wrote his story. Heinlein
was notified before the episode was filmed, and asked for nothing
more than a copy of the script, which he got.  See page 252 of
Gerrold's book for more.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1980 13:39 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: ROSSID at Wharton comments on Flatcats vs Tribbles

As I recall, before The Trouble With Tribbles was released (filmed?)
the studio's legal department sent a copy of the script to RAH.  He
replied that he didn't see any plagerism. I'm not sure if who pointed
out the similarities between the two to the studio, or if they just
make it their business to remember the plots of all SF ever published.

Alan Frisbie

------------------------------

PCR@MIT-AI 11/23/80 03:35:22 Re: Gerrold vs "Rolling Stones"

In his book "The Trouble With Tribbles", Gerrold does note that,
after the episode was written, somebody pointed out the resemblence
to "Rolling Stone" and the flatcats. He also says that the Paramount
legal beagles contacted RAH about the matter. Heinlein allowed as the
idea seemed to come from an old (50's) short story called "Pigs is
Pigs", and let the ST folk use it with no royalties (except for a
signed copy of the script).

                                 Phil Reed (PCR@MIT-AI)

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 11/22/80 18:32:29 Re: The trouble with tribbles

     According to David Gerrold's book, "The Trouble With Tribbles",
Heinlein was happy that the tribbles were used, and that he wished
he had good enough TV reception in his area to see the show when it
aired.
     Actually, I believe there was another Gerrold plot that was a
blatent rip off of Orphans in the Sky. . . .  But Gerrold claims
that he never read (and / or forgot) both books.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 NOV 1980 0607-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #145
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 24 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:
                Physics Today - Forward Info Transfer,
    SF TV - LA Twilight Zone Schedule, SF Books - Stan Lee Comic,
                    SF Movies - ST:tMP & Star Wars
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 NOV 1980 1140-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Joules per bit  [also see SFL V2 #5]

     A few months ago I asked if anyone knew of the minimum amount
of energy needed to transfer a bit of information. There was a lot
of discussion, but no one could point me to an answer.  I have
researched the problem and the closest I could come was Shannon's
original work in 1948.  I have been able to derive the answer from
one of Shannon's theorems.
     The energy efficiency of information transfer is:

                             E = kT ln 2

Where k = 1.38x10^-23 is Boltzmann's constant, ln is the log to
the base e, and T is the effective noise temperature of the system.
     If the noise is that of the 2.7 degree background radiation,
then E = 2.6x10^-23 Joules/bit. That means that the entire contents
of the Library of Congress could be transmitted by a few microjoules.
     Surely such a simple answer has been derived before.  I would
appreciate pointers to such a derivation.

        Bob Forward (FORWARD@USC-ECL, FORWRD@MIT-MC)

------------------------------

Date: 23 November 1980 23:08-EST
From: Ian G. Macky <GREN at MIT-MC>

Thursday morning, November 27th, starting at 9:00 am KTLA chnl 5 in
Los Angeles will run 7.5 hours of the best of the Twilight Zone.
Episodes to be shown (in order) are: "Odyssey of Flight 33", "Eye of
Beholder", "The Dummy", "The Hitchhiker", "Little Lost Girl", "Long
Live Walter Jameson", "Nick of Time", "The After Hours", "Nothing in
the Dark", "Living Doll", "People Are Alike All Over", "Uncle Simon",
"Nightmare at 20,000 Feet", "To Serve Man", and "The Invaders".
...and thurday's a holiday! Calooh, calay...

[ For your ease of reference, the SF-LOVERS Twilight Zone Episode
  Guide by Saul Jaffe and Lauren Weinstein has been restored to
  the file AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS TZEG.                          --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1980 1700-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: St. Francis

   I too have just finished the St. Francis book.  While I don't
know much about the lives of the saints, I would go along with PCR's
analysis of the book. It looks typical for such things. I would like
to note a few things though.  There were no ads anywhere in the book,
looks like Marvel really took it seriously. Although it does seem to
skip large chunks of time, what can you expect in a 45 page comic
book?  And last but not least, the book claims to have the official
backing of the Franciscan order (or least part of it), story line
and dialogue are attributed to Fr. Roy Gasnick, O.F.M., Director of
the Franciscan Communications Office of NY.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1980 13:56 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Lauren's comments on Abel's problems

Lauren is sooooo right about Abel having problems.  In early 1978,
I received a call from DEC asking if I was interested in doing some
consulting for Abel.  Abel had contacted them about putting together
their mass of DEC and Non-DEC (brand-X replacement) equipment into
something that would work. When DEC declined, Abel asked if DEC would
recommend someone, which is when I was called. I almost jumped at the
chance to work on STtMP, but after hearing how screwed-up they were I
decided there was little hope for them.  I don't mind difficult jobs,
but disasters are no fun at all and don't look good on a resume.

Alan Frisbie

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/24/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
Clarke's short story "The Star" and Star Wars - A New Hope. People who
are not familiar with the story or the movie may not wish to read any
further.


------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1980 1700-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Destruction of Aldaran

   For my money, Arthur C. Clarke shows the true origin of the star
over Bethlehem in the short story "The Star".  So, I can't see any
connection between SW and X-mas.
   I don't believe the destruction of the planet Aldaran would have
produced enough energy to effectively outshine all the rest of the
heavens.  Unless it was a total conversion of mass to energy, which
we know darn well it wasn't.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 NOV 1980 0854-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #146
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 25 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:
    Physics Today - Forward Info Transfer, SF Books - Uncommon SF,
                 SF TV - Star Trek's Tribble Troubles
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 November 1980 1014-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: information theory

I seem to recall that the probability of correct transfer is a
function of the S/N ratio, and so a function of the energy per
bit relative to the background noise.  The equation you quoted
must be for some probability level (50% ?).

------------------------------

Date: 25 November 1980 0220-EST
From: Roger Duffey <RDD at MIT-AI>
Subject: An entry for the Uncommon SF Query

APEMAN, SPACEMAN: Anthropological Science Fiction
   edited by Leon E. Stover and Harry Harrison

APEMAN, SPACEMAN is a "classroom use" SF anthology. "Classroom use"
anthologies are designed to use SF stories to interest students in
particular subjects.  APEMAN, SPACEMAN covers cultural, physical,
and archaeological anthropology. It is divided into eight sections
entitled "Fossils", "The Hairless Ape", "Dominant Species",
"Unfinished Evolution", "Prehistory", "Archaeology", "Local Customs",
and "Applied Anthropology".  Each section begins with informative
and well written introductions by the editors and anthropologist
Carleton Coon providing a springboard for thinking about the story
as it portrays anthropology.  The anthology contains 26 stories
including Clarke's Science Fiction Hall of Fame classic "The Nine
Billion Names of God".  All of the material is at least enjoyable
and many of the stories are excellent.

"Classroom use" anthologies have been tried for a number of different
subject areas including the physical sciences, psychology, political
science, sociology, and history.  Many of them have not been very
well done. APEMAN, SPACEMAN is an exception. It is one of the earliest
of these anthologies and, in my opinion, one of the best. Uncommon and
recommended.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/25/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss RAH's THE ROLLING STONES and the Star Trek episode THE TROUBLE
WITH TRIBBLES.  People who are not familiar with the novel or the TV
episode may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 NOV 1980 1219-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: tribble troubles

  I'm amused to see that several people immediately jumped on
ROSSID's contention of plagiarism in THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES
but no one caught a small error of fact at the end of his msg.
Tribbles and martian flat cats are \not/ identical; the flat
cats are darkish red (one character comments that it would be
trivial to lose a flat cat in the desert (this was \long/
before Viking sent back pictures showing Mars as pinkish at
ground level)) and are spherical only when [dormant] (they
are finally contained by evacuating the ship, which causes
them to curl up and stop moving, so they can be "harvested"
(Heinlein describes them as resembling furry grapefruit)
and dumped in an unheated hold).
   \Somebody/ in Roddenberry's organization was knowledgeably
watching for possible (even if inadvertent) plagiarism; the
tribbles were originally "fuzzies", which was ruled out the
first time the script went through Legal because of Piper's
LITTLE FUZZY, which was hardly a well-known book at the time.
(Piper's Fuzzies were intelligent and humanoid, but Legal was
being thorough.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 NOV 1980 0731-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #147
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 26 Nov 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:
            Space - Voyager AP/NYT Stories & NASA Shuttle,
 SF Books - Shuttle Down & Uncommon SF, SF Movies - A Star Wars Xmas
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1980 0220-EST
From: The Moderator
Subject: How to obtain the Voyager newswire stories

The flood of newswire stories on Voyager I has now tapered off.
Therefore Jim McGrath has asked me to remind you that copies of
the newswire stories are directly available at each of the sites
listed below. Due to the large volume of material, RUTGERS has
chosen to make it available from a BBOARD rather than simply
from a file.  The stories are available from the files listed
below at the remaining sites.

These files will remain available through 1 Dec. A copy of this
material will also be available from the SF-LOVERS archives.
Again thanks go to Richard Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips,
and Jon Solomon for their efforts to maintain the material, and
to Jim McGrath for making the stories available to us.

   Site          Filename
  
MIT-AI       AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS VOYGER
CMUA         TEMP:VOYAGE.UPD[A210DP0Z]
MIT-Multics  >udd>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>voyager-news.text
PARC-MAXC    [Maxc]<Brodie>Voyager.TXT
SU-AI        VOYGER.NS[T,JPM]

[Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.]

Rutgers      At Rutgers the Voyager material will be available from
             the <HACKS>VOYAGER BBOARD. This BBOARD is being updated
             automatically twice daily. Rutgers people interested in
             keeping abreast of the Voyager I results should execute
             BBOARD <HACKS>VOYAGER in their customary way (ie. in
             your LOGIN.CMD, BBoard.CMD, manually, etc.)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1980 1125-PST
From: TAW at SU-AI
Subject: Shuttle landings (real and fictional)  
To: Space@MC

     If I am not mistaken, the Columbia will be landing at Edwards
AFB (near L.A.) after her initial launch (supposedly on Mar 14) and
3 day mission. Does anyone know if there is some place near Edwards
with a reasonable view of the landing field, where normal human non-
military, non-press types are allowed??  Since it is unlikely that
I will get to KSC for the launch, I would at least like to see the
landing, if possible.  Anybody else want to go???
     Regarding Shuttle landings, there is what appears to be an 
excellent story in the current issue of ANALOG magazine, called
'Shuttle Down'.  (I say 'appears to be' because it is the first
part of four, so be warned.)  It concerns a post-launch engine
malfunction and emergency landing of the Atlantis.  I recommend
it.

-- Tom

[ Note, "Shuttle Down" was written by Lee Correy, the fiction
  pseudonym for G. Harry Stine.                            --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1980 at 1829-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MORE UNCOMMON sf RECOMMENDED ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hooray for Roger, for starting off responses!  Hopefully this will
be an on-going topic, with lots of SF-Lers eventually putting their
2-cents-worth in from time to time.

One of mine is an old (1966) novella by John Brunner that for some
reason to do with wrong length for the category it was nominated
for, got disqualified for the Hugo (Nebula?) of its year, so you
never hear about it: A PLANET OF YOUR OWN, Ace (double) G-592.

It's a simple, straightforward little story, from before his switch
to more sophisticated material.  The "Renaissance-man type" heroine
defeats the evil machinations <pun!> of the villainous corporate
executive by driving a computer half bonkers with the intricacies
of space law. It has an intriguing water-world ecology. A fun book,
it's the kind of story that leaves you feeling goo-o-o-o-o-d.

Another, by a lesser but fairly prolific author of Ace doubles in
the late 60's, is THE DOUBLE INVADERS (G-623) by John Rackham (John
Phillifent).

The nasties are conquering planet after planet and coming in Earth's
direction.  On their way is this almost Utopian world of peacable,
technologically undeveloped, but otherwise highly inteligent people.
It's almost a stock situation, you KNOW those Goodies are gonna whip
ass. But it's the \way/ that is brought about that is the delightful
twist.  Like the Brunner, it's a real "upper".

Unfortunately these are both surely out of print, and so many
people are collecting even the blue-&-white Ace doubles simply for
collecting's sake, that they'll be hard to find.  But, if you have
any sight-impaired friends who dig SF, copies of both are in the
state libraries for the blind of Texas and Iowa. (The Iowa library
sort of "specializes" in SF.)  I am not sure if materials for the
blind from individual state libraries are accessible on any sort
of Interlibrary Loan, but they were read by me, so I probably have
the tapes still around and ought to be able to find someone to make
copies if sent blanks (reel-to-reel or cassette), specifications,
and suitable SASE.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/26/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss Christmas and Star Wars - A New Hope.  People who are not
familiar with the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1980 09:44 PST
From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Destruction of Aldaraan

Hmmm.  Just how long could something the size of the earth shine
with supernova brightness?

I recall that the sun eats 4e6 mass tons / second = 8.8e9 kg/s,
and there are (maybe) 1e8 stars in a galaxy and supernova shines
as brightly as a galaxy.

The earth is 6450 km in radius, with average density 7 (I think),
so contains about 7.9e21 kg of mass.

Dividing 7.9e21/8.8e17 gives 8.9e3 seconds of "operation", or 2
hours and 29 minutes....  Seems a bit short for guiding the wise
men.

Of course there is no way the thing could hold together!

        Larry

------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 11/24/80 20:13:28 Re: SW and certain religious holidays

Not quite. Like maybe the destruction of the Death Star was the
birth of a whole world of Christians? Argh!

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

JimH@MIT-AI 11/24/80 22:09:46 Re: christmas in far off galaxies

Maybe that wasn't Alderan being destroyed that was seen by the
wise men. Clearly it was the destruction of the Deathstar!
  -let's blow this thing and go home.
  Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 NOV 1980 0840-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #148
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 28 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:
                  What Happens at a Con? - Loscon 7,
    SF Books - Uncommon SF & Legal Computers Query & Shuttle Down,
                           TESB - A review
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1980 11:24 PST
From: Brodie.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Loscon

This is a reminder that Loscon 7 occurs this weekend (Friday through
Sunday) at the Sheraton-Anaheim Hotel in (you guessed it) Anaheim.
We'll be having an SF-LOVERS party Friday night; look for the message
giving the room number under "S" on the bulletin board.

        Richard Brodie

------------------------------

MARG@MIT-AI 11/26/80 15:35:25 Re: Uncommon SF

Definitely OutofPrint, but there's THE FLAMES by OLAF STAPLEDON,
poignant short novel about flame creatures who are happy in stars.
I enjoyed it when I read it a long time ago at the MITSFS. It also
in an ancient hardback that also contiains 2 other short novels or
novellas by Stapledon (not really SF) but I don't remmember the
title or publishing details.

------------------------------

Date: 26 NOV 1980 1106-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: A PLANET OF YOUR OWN

   I \just/ read that! It was lying around MITSFS because some lazy
clot hadn't reshelved [his] books and I realized it was a Brunner I
hadn't read, so I took it to Philcon, where it relieved an otherwise
tedious convention.  I do object, though, to the phrase "driving the
computer bonkers", as that has become a STAR TREK cliche and is
inaccurate; she simply supplies the legal citations necessary to
prevent the computer from doing what its owners (who were sticklers
for the letter (but not the spirit) of the law) had intended it to.
   And here's another subject query; can you think of any other
stories in which a computer is capable of interpreting the law?
This is a minor facet of Pohl & Kornbluth's GLADIATOR AT LAW and
consistent background in Biggle's MONUMENT (the book, not the short
story).  Brunner uses a computer-killing legal paradox assembled
by \another/ \computer/ in TIMESCOOP, and I'm sure there are other
examples I don't remember and haven't read.  But I doubt there are
any written by people who are familiar enough with law to give the
affair the appropriate detailed complexity.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1980 11:45 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Shuttle Landings

For several months, a friend of mine at Rocketdyne (sp?) has been
telling me about all the horrible problems that NASA would have if
the shuttle ever came down anywhere other than KSC or Edwards. As he
described it, the #1 (#2?) person on the "Go Team" is a government
contracting officer with a briefcase full of purchase-order and
contract forms.

When I saw the story 'Shuttle Down', my first thought was that my
friend had written it. After all, he had already told me essentially
the entire plot of the story.  I am sure he is now kicking himself
for not trying to sell it to Analog.

As for watching the real landing, I intend to drive up to Edwards if
there is any chance at all of seeing the first real SPACESHIP land on
earth.

Alan Frisbie

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/27/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last messages in this digest.  It reviews
TESB.  People who are not familiar with the movie may not wish to read
any further.


------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1980 0220-EST
From: KLH at MIT-AI
Subject: Yet another TESB review

Well, I finally did it.  After reading hundreds of TESB "spoiler"
messages (and the book -- from library of course), I went to see
TESB with a couple of friends.  I've enjoyed seeing the reactions
of various SFL people, so perhaps mine will be halfway interesting
as well.

My friends, who didn't know anything about the plot but had seen SW,
felt vaguely cheated by the incompleteness of the movie... "that's
ALL?".  I guess it didn't bother me because I was expecting it.  We
agreed another viewing might be reasonable (particularly at 1.75 per
ticket); like SW, too many fascinating little background details
missed the first time.

In general, I'd say that TESB has the same merits and deficiencies
as SW. It's an entertaining look at a robots-and-spaceships sort of
universe, but you still have to perform a mental brain-disconnect
operation greater than seems reasonable.

Two things in particular keep bothering me.  They aren't nitpicks,
because they strike me DIRECTLY at a very low level, where I am
unable to fiddle with my programming.

First, the spaceship flight paths and perspectives are wrong too many
times.  I'm not asking for scientific realism, I'm asking for decent
3-d to 2-d mapping.  Particularly in the chase scenes, it's impossible
for my eyes (much less my brain) to believe that the Tie fighters are
really where they're supposed to be. In fact, this is a case where my
reasoning faculties must be RE-ACTIVATED in order to stay in the Star
Wars world! ("Let's see, the Falcon is pointed thataway, so the Tie
over there is probably going thisaway...")  Likewise, energy bolts
(especially in space) keep going in the "wrong" places; they would
be much more effective visually if they narrowed down and faded,
like railroad tracks.  And their "line" should be oriented exactly
along the line of the ship/muzzle they're supposedly originating
from. This was worse in SW with all the dogfighting. Lucas' braying
about watching all the great WWI/II dogfight movies (and extracting
the "best" features) makes me sick.

     I know those problems aren't insoluble.  And they have everything
to do with looking "natural", no matter how unscientific.  So why....?

     The second problem is harder to explain, since I think it comes
from an instinctive reading of body positions and movements. Several
times a situation just won't feel right.  This happens often with
storm troopers; they don't act at all the way you'd expect trained
military forces to behave.  Their "combat" style seems clumsy and
their reactions non-existent.  Maybe just bad acting.  At any rate,
there are quite a few places where my guts don't agree with what the
director is trying to show.

So, on to the nitpicks.

    The light-saber fight this time was MUCH better; in fact it
stands out as the most "real" acting I remember for Luke. (C'mon,
show those teeth!)  In retrospect, though, it still wasn't the
kind of lightning-like exchange you'd expect of such weapons,
with nearly zero angular inertia.  (by the way, this is one of
the reasons handguns are more dangerous than rifles -- they're
too damn easy to wave around!!)
     And why is it that a light-saber will chop through anything
EXCEPT another l-s beam?  Why not make a "shield" of interlocked
l-s beams, instead of relying on your offensive weapon to defend
as well? Genteel fencers don't use shields, but I can't think of
any REAL sword-warrior in history who hasn't.  Also, since a l-s
can be switched in and out of existence, by flickering the beam
you can bypass any obstacle to the beam-sweep -- if your opponent
makes the mistake of defending without simultaneously attacking
(so that you needn't worry about the blocking capability of your
own beam), it should be trivial to blip past his counter and
through his neck.
     The whole issue of light-sabers is strange, anyway; clearly
it needs more explanation to make sense.  This sort of thing was
set up much better in DUNE, with drag-inducing "shields".

* I wish, just once, a storm trooper would hit something.
     I wonder why we haven't seen the equivalent of grenades?
     Gas?  Their helmets look just like futuristic gas masks.
* Best actor: Yoda.
* Best other special effect: Taun-tauns. BIG hit with friends.
* "walkers": totally absurd, more than I imagined.  However
     friends loved it, particularly the "mouth-guns" and
     ponderous toppling of unlucky walkers.  I admit the
     effects had great visceral impact, however ridiculous
     the concept.
* Worst scene: inside the asteriod-worm.
     (a) Dumb eek-reaction from rebel force commander,
     (b) Dumb tactics to leave safe warm ship,
     (c) gravity??
     (d) atmospheric pressure???
     (e) teeth??????
* Asteriod-worm theory: asteriods exist because giant worms
     made swiss cheese of original planet. Giant worms exist due
     to breeding as combo air-raid shelters (w/ self-contained
     air system) and garbage disposals.  Sometimes the worm gets
     its mode confused.

Lastly, about some of the Fundamental Questions:

* Is Vader Luke's father?
     Our impression: YES.  There may prove to be some funnyness
     afoot (cloning etc) but gut feelings are all in support. The
     problem is how to explain prior behavior on Vader's part.
* Who is the "other hope"?  
     Most likely a new character.  Of all those seen so far, the
     consistently most level-headed and capable has been R2D2.
     For what it's worth, R2D2 is still mysterious and was also
     on Dagobah; perhaps during Luke's training, Yoda perceived
     the watching R2D2 absorbing the skills of force-manipulation?
     At any rate, I have another theory, which I'll bring up in
     another message.  Heh, heh.

* What's the point of the whole thing?  To make money.

     Clearly there is a lot of history and background missing that we
need for figuring out the SW universe, but I doubt most of it will be
"revealed" -- if in fact Lucas has even thought about explaining any-
thing.  Why light sabers?  Why a "ghost-Kenobi"?  Mostly, they look
good.  Their implications were probably never considered, as they
would be for a serious SF story.  Unless I or a friend were to work
for Lucas, I won't really bother trying to rationalize everything,
and by now I've already given it up as a bad job. The thing to do
is pop out of the story confines and figure out how the PRODUCERS
think; they do have an eye for details, but which ones are signi-
ficant?  Frankly as long as they fix the damn low-level bugs I'll
let them get away with almost anything.

--Ken

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 NOV 1980 0800-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #149
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 28 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:
 SF Books - Stasheff & Edmondson & Busby, Robots - Safety and People
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1980 at 0105-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (Fairly) RECENT AND READABLE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Out in July from DAW, the first new Stasheff book in years -- A
WIZARD IN BEDLAM, doesn't match his classic WARLOCK IN SPITE OF
HIMSELF, but while not corruscating with puns which would make
even an Asimov groan with delight, as WiSoH was, there's still
plenty of the typical Stasheff wit.  Reminiscent of Offutt's
MESSENGER OF ZHUVASTOU.

Similarly out in July, from Ace, G.C. Edmondson's THE MAN WHO
CORRUPTED EARTH didn't throw me into spasms of chortling, as his 
ALUMINUM MAN still does, but it was more satisfying than most.
There are elements in the book strongly reminiscent of Anderson's
Trader Van Rijn, the Varley short story about the fellow and the
girl in separate 1-person spaceships, and Murray Leinster's THE
WAILING ASTEROID.

Not so new, F.M. Busby's ALL THESE EARTHS, from Berleley in Sept. 
of '78, is quite different from the above.  In fact, it's quite
different from any other of Busby's, which tend toward seaminess.
...EARTHS is an alternate time-track story in which travel at FTL
speeds shifts you into a different timeline; the faster, the 
further removed. There are some nice touches of poignancy instead
of his usual downright painfulness, and it leaves you with a glow.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1980 1316-PST (Thursday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Acceptance of technology (robots?)
To: HUMAN-NETS at MIT-AI

The following news story, by its very existence, indicates that we
may have more than a few problems in gaining acceptance for future
"servo mechanisms". It's unfortunate that such things are considered
to be "news".  Maybe if we told everyone about Asimov's Three Laws
of Robotics...

                    ------------------------------


                       UF Robot Self Destructs

    GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) - An experimental robot shaped like a human
arm went haywire and attacked itself, dislocating its shoulder, says
the University of Florida student who was operating the robot at the
time.
    Harvey Lipkin, a graduate student in the mechanical engineering
department blamed a "hardware failure" for the malfunctioning robotic
arm and said the incident "pointed out the dramatic need to use
robotic safety devices.'
    Lipkin, 29, said he was controlling the $50,000 aluminum arm a
few weeks ago when it slammed itself into its supporting stand. "It
happened before I could hit the kill switch," Lipkin said Thursday.
"Luckily, nobody was in its reach or grasp." The incident was made
public this week.
    The arm, about five feet long and weighing 70 pounds, was
constructed for research purposes, but is similar to those used
in manufacturing processes and "to do things where the human can
be replaced," Lipkin said.
    "As of now, there's really no way to prevent injury if there is
failure," he said. "They are essentially very stupid or dumb devices.
If something comes into the work area, like a person, it (the robot)
would probably plow right through it."
    While the arm is back in operating order, it hasn't returned to
work, Lipkin said.
    "We are going to install an elementary safety device so at least
if it rams into its stand, it will shut off," he said.

                    ------------------------------

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 NOV 1980 0811-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #150
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 29 Nov 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:
           Robots - Safety and People, SF Movies - Dr. Lao,
    SF Books - Warlord of the Air & Legal Computers & Uncommon SF,
                         TESB - Plot theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 November 1980 0958-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: robot self-destruct

Another problem with the story is the fact that the grad student
has his foot in his mouth. He may have been quoted out of context
or misquoted, I know I have.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1980 1745-EST
From: OSTROFF at RUTGERS
Subject: 7 Faces of Dr. Lao

Not particularly relevant, perhaps, but one of the major points of the
movie (at least as I remember the advertising) was that Tony Randall
plays six or seven parts - including himself as a quick walk-through
in the main circus tent who looks directly at the camera and shrugs
his shoulders.
                        Jack Ostroff

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1980 2207-PST (Friday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Presidential SF?

   Now that the election has blown over, someone should mention
that a parallel-world version of Ronald Reagan has a ludicrous
role in Michael Moorcock's 1970-or-thereabouts fantasy story,
The Warlord of the Air.
   Consider it mentioned.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date:  29 November 1980 00:23 est
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS  at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Computer Law

The Telzey ESP stories seemed to mention a portable law library
which obviously used some form of advanced technology to make it
easy to tie together references to build a brief.  I have only
read one of these stories in the anthology Tomorrow's Children.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1980 at 0107-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STELLAR SENTIENTS AND SIMILARITIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

MARG at MIT's Stapledon story with "flame creatures who are happy
in stars" sounds like Blish's THE SEEDLING STARS.  TSS reads like
a juvenile, and a much more old-fashioned one than its 1957 pub-
lishing date, is hokey as heck, but for some unaccountable reason,
I still somehow enjoy it whenever I reread it.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1980 1955-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: uncommon sf

Another old Ace double that's a favorite is "Space Chantey" by
R. A. Lafferty.  It's sort of a retelling of "The Odyssey" in sf
terms, but in typically crazed Lafferty fashion. Odysseus becomes
Space Captain Roadstrum, the land of the lotus eaters becomes a
planet where (shades of Tennyson) it is always afternoon, the
clashing rocks become an asteroid belt and so on. I think this
was the first Lafferty I ever read, and I was taken by the style
even if I didn't know what was going on.
  There's a lot of good Jack Vance books that you don't see very
often.  One of his first was "The Many Worlds of Magnus Ridolph",
a collection of short stories about a genteel, goateed adventurer
who consistly outwits his brawny, space-tanned adversaries.  I
think it was reprinted recently; I recommend it.
    Mark Geston doesn't write much and isn't strong on plot, but
if you like apocalypses he's your man. "The Lords of the Starship",
"In the Mouth of the Dragon" (very hard to find) and "The Siege of
Wonder" all contain final battles of one kind or another.  "The
Siege of Wonder" is probably the best; it concerns a confrontation
between the forces of magic and those of science: griffins vs.
tanks and the like.  His style might be too poetic for some, but
I'd pick him as my favorite unknown author.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/29/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It presents
some more theories of TESB. People who are not familiar with the movie
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 11/29/80 03:17:26 Re: Some theories about TESB

Under the dubious assumption that seeing the movie qualifies one to
extemporize at length about Lucas' plans in general, I can't resist
throwing in some of my own thoughts about the general plot evolution.
As far as I know, no one else has seriously proposed these theories,
which means either that they know something I don't, or my thought
patterns are even more bizarre than I think.

             Ready?  Hang on to your keyboards, folks...
                       -----------------------

KLH Theory #1: The "other hope" is none other than Darth Vader!

   This makes perfect dramatic sense.  Among all the mysteries, Darth
   Vader is, I think, the key mystery. Who, or what, is Vader?  Where
   are his real loyalties?  And I think I can guess...

KLH Theory #2:  Darth Vader is none other than Luke Skywalker!

   No, I haven't lost ALL my marbles.  Think about it.  All this
   requires is that Luke be transported back into time.  And that,
   from the SF movie viewpoint, is a trivial operation. What could
   be more suitable for an interstellar oedipal myth?

     Just to make things more concrete, let me furnish a scenario
that incorporates both of the above theories, although they are
actually fairly independent of each other, and I'd bet slightly
more on the first than the second (like about 2 mills).

     Leia and Luke get married (or the equivalent).  With Leia very
pregnant, they set out for a new home, base, or whatever; by accident
or attack of Imperial forces, their hyperdrive glitches or rams them
into a black hole.  The ship emerges in the past; Leia is fatally
injured (producing extremes of revenge or embitterment?) but the
baby lives.  One way or another only Luke Sr. and Luke Jr. make
it to Tatooine (perhaps they were heading there in the first place).
Luke meets Obi-Wan (disturbance in Force, etc) but doesn't tell him
what is really going on, and Kenobi simply accepts this promising
young pupil at face value.  After absorbing some more teaching, and
doing his bit in the trenches, he sees the opportunity to stop things
before they start; off he goes to find Vader... and he BECOMES Vader.
His son grows up as Luke Skywalker.  Luke is his own father, his own
son, his own enemy.  The Dagobah cave scene makes perfect sense,
literally as well as symbolically.

     From this point on, the possibilities are the same whether or
not the Vader = Luke theory is correct, although the mythos is a lot
stronger if it is.  I'll just use the term "LF" for "Luke's Father",
whoever that really is.  Note, by the way, that Luke may be a clone
of LF, which avoids genetic variation between Sr and Jr -- useful for
time loops, if the producers actually bother to think about it.  And
to be sure, the clone theory (which others have suggested I believe)
is almost as good as the time-jump one; it wins for the cave scene as
well as absence of Luke-mother, although it's not quite as forceful.
Anyway, if timetripping is ruled out, I vouch for clones!

     So, why is Vader the "other hope"?  Well, there are a number of
ways this can come about, but all have their roots in Vader's origin;
the key is accepting the assumption that Vader is indeed LF, one way
or another.  Let's consider three subtheories about that:

     (A) <Luke = LF> meets the Emperor during his search for the young
Darth, and mistakes his evil aura for Vader's.  The emperor doesn't
know what he's talking about, but knows a worthy enemy when he senses
him.  Another great duel, which Luke loses again, horribly injured;
but the Emperor doesn't kill him, rather he warps the Jedi's mind to
the "dark side" (to which Luke may already have resorted during course
of battle).  Note that brain injuries (remember Vader's head?) can do
all kinds of amazing things, including partial amnesia.  Furthermore,
the Force is known to be usable for mental persuasion (cf Kenobi).
The Emperor avails himself of the powerful services of this nameless
vassal, and as a macabre touch gives him the very appellation which
was applied earlier...  Darth Vader.  The Emperor doesn't dare cure
Vader of his injuries, since that may release his hold on him.
Consequently, the perpetual black helmet for aesthetic as well
as intimidation reasons.

     (B) A real Vader existed.  LF hunts him down and wins the fight.
But then he is caught in a web of circumstances (eg Emperor is nearby,
and LF is weakened or not strong enough to fight him yet) which compel
him to assume Vader's name, announce that LF died in the battle, and
don a disguise. He decides that he can be more useful to the rebellion
as a mole, and continues to play the role; the mask is a convenient
way to shield his identity from anyone who might betray him.

     (C) LF simply sold out -- seduced by the allures of the "dark
side", et cetera.  This may or may not have happened with the help
of the Emperor, as per subtheory A.

     So, Vader could be either a passive instrument of evil, a secret
ally of the rebels, or an active bad guy.  In any of these roles he
can be seen as the "other hope".

     The notion of Vader as a secret rebel is probably wrong, if only
from the dramatic viewpoint.  However, why else would he continually
let rebels escape, strangle off the best Empire commanders, and pull
his punches in fighting Ben and Luke? (Come on, we KNOW he could have
squashed Luke like a fly, and Ben's fight was obviously staged).
Isn't it suspicious that only one person escaped from the Death
Star's demise?  Why does he use such incompetent storm troopers? If
memory serves me right, Vader himself did not order the destruction
of Leia's planet; that was the commander's decision, after Vader's
methods (obviously non-permanent) failed.  Still, there are holes.
For example, Vader supposedly hunted down most of the other Jedi
knights; was LF the last one (aha) or the first one (oops)?

     And the other possibilities are more interesting.  Clearly LF
used to be a "good" Jedi; he still has great potential.  For Vader
to reject the dark side and rebel against the Emperor would be
perfectly consistent with many other return-to-grace tales, and
Luke himself will probably be the catalyst for Vader's conversion.
Near the end of TESB as the Falcon escapes into hyperspace, Vader
is obviously moved. His relationship with Luke will either manuever
him into a situation where he is "cured" of his mental/physical
chains, or will simply force a re-examination of self (Vader in
a mid-life crisis??).

     At any rate, Vader will join the rebels openly or covertly,
abandon the "dark side" if he hasn't already, and will be the
downfall of the Emperor in the final, epic battle.  If Vader
is Luke, then Luke as such is no longer around (the black hole,
remember?)  and Vader/LF/L will live to a ripe old age, having
come full circle.  Otherwise, in the climax Vader will again be
faced with the choice of using the dark side (against the emperor,
a big mistake), but this time will reject it and will take the
Emperor down with him in a mutual blaze of glory, achieving
self-redemption.

     Neat, huh?

                         --------------------

Random other suspicions:
     I think there's something funny about the term "Clone Wars";
probably the movies "prior" to #4 will have more to say about that.
     E.G. I think it's correct to surmise that the storm troopers
are clones, probably by-products of the Clone Wars.  There has got
to be a reason why we never see their faces and why they're mostly
so much cannon fodder.  And isn't it odd that they're always white?
What's their armor for, if it never stops energy bolts?  Are they
Vader's personal troops only?
     Which reminds me, any theory about Vader has to explain why he
wears that outfit.  Simple mutiliation isn't very plausible, because
we just saw that their medical science is good enough to give Luke a
new hand -- prosthetic, but still equivalent.  That's one reason for
subtheories A and B.  Clearly we're not SUPPOSED to know who or what
Vader is... yet.  Nor are the other characters -- the Emperor is the
only one who SHOULD know.
     Remember the artificial hand in Zelazny's Amber?  I wonder if
Luke's will serve a similar role... of course, there's always R2D2
for that.
     Kenobi's statements about Luke's father are puzzling.  And
why would Ben still have LF's light saber, no matter what the
circumstances?  On the other hand, Ben doesn't necessarily know
everything; Yoda can apparently see farther or deeper.
     Lucas doesn't care about scientific accuracy; does he care
about plot accuracy? Or just whatever keeps the masses hanging on?

                         --------------------

     Interestingly enough, Theory #2 ties in very well with a
possible filming schedule:

   Film #6: More of TESB.  Hans rescued?
   Film #7: Vader gets religion.  Luke & kid hit black hole.
   Film #1: Luke & kid emerge, Luke aids in Clone Wars.
   Film #2: Luke hunts for Vader
   Film #3: Luke becomes Vader
   Film #8: Vader joins rebellion, mounts campaign vs Emperor
   Film #9: Vader meets Emperor

In other words, the chronological jumping-around becomes an integral
part of the story's time-stream!  This also technically satisfies
Lucas' constraint that only R2D2 and C3PO will appear in all episodes,
since Vader isn't in the early ones and Luke isn't in the late ones.
But I don't know how much to believe Lucas, anyway.  I guess what
I'm basically getting at is that it would be disappointing if the
characters remained fixed in their roles; there are already too many
movies pitting unmitigated evil versus absolute good.

                     ----------------------------

Oh well, an amusing speculative exercise.  There are any number of
loose ends (which the real films may or may not tie up).  Who
knows, if Lucas really is keeping his options open and his eyes on
the various absurd theories floating around, this one might tickle
his money bone...

--Ken

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 NOV 1980 0843-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #151
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 30 Nov 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Uncommon SF & Legal Computers & Venus on the Halfshell,
                         TESB - Plot Theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 NOV 1980 1832-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Blish's THE SEEDLING STARS

   is still worth while reading, if only because Blish's remarks about
some of the ridiculous excesses committed in the name of education are
valid even today (the museum piece described at the beginning of the
book, a spoon bent at a 90-degree angle so infant left-handers would
be forced to use it righthanded, is a good example).

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1980 1322-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: COMPUTERS AND LAW
 
     This is not exactly a propos Computers and the Law -- it is more
SF and the Law.  A reasonably good "classroom collection" is a volume
entitled "Criminal Justice through Science Fiction," edited by Joseph
D. Olander and Martin Harry Greenberg (New Viewpoints, New York,
1977).  It contains the following stories:

        The Undercity                 Dean Koontz
        Guilty as Charged             Arthur Porges
        Shock Treatment               J. Francis McComas
        A Jury not of Peers           Pg Wyal
        10:01 A.M.                    Alexander B. Malec
        Bounty                        T. L. Sherred
        Hawksbill Station             Robert Silverberg
        The Cage                      Bertram Chandler
        December 28TH                 Theodore L. Thomas
        Two-Handed Engine             Henry Kuttner
        And Keep Us From Our Castles  Cynthia Bunn
        The Public Hating             Steve Allen
        The Modern Penitentiary       Hayden Howard

Most of them are quite good.  The ones that really stuck with me were
"Hawksbill Station," "The Cage," "And Keep Us From Our Castles," and
"The Public Hating." "A Jury not of Peers" and "Two-Handed Engine"
seem to be most directly concerned with computers (unless I have
forgotten some details).
     Mike

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 11/28/80 10:17:05 Re: computers that can interpret law

     In response to Chip Hitchcock's query about computers that can
interpret law, I just finished "Why Bring Them Back from Heaven"
by Clifford Simak.  Although a minor feature of the story, the law
of the land dictates the use of jury trials in which the jury is a
machine.  A couple of paragraphs is devoted to a discussion of how
the use of machines has caused lawyers to stick strictly to the
letter of the law and objective facts instead of the "sympathy
tricks" and other appeals to emotion that are often used in modern
day jury trials.  (I once sat on a jury for a civil suit and was
amazed by the fact that noone in the courtroom seemed to want the
jury to hear the actual FACTS of the case.  A lot of mumbo-jumbo
about if this or that information was admissable without the jury
finding out what the information was. Also, seemed that the lawyers'
chief job was to KEEP certain info from becoming known!!  And oh the
theatrics of the lawyer for the plaintiff!! Truly a thing to behold.)
     Anyway, this gives me as good as excuse as any to give a mini
review of WBTBfH.  (a book I picked up after reading the name in
this list) All in all I thought it was pretty good.  It did a better
job of describing a possible future world than it did in character-
izations. In this sense it reminded me of "The Man in the High Castle"
(correct name?) by Philip K. Dick.  The world that was described was
a very interesting one.  In general, I like SF that attempts to be
philosophically thought provoking instead of merely portraying a lot
of action in an alien environment (space westerns, for example). The
greatest shortcoming of the story, in my opinion, is that the reader
is asked to believe some rather unbelievable coincidences that just
happen to bring the main characters back together at unpredictable
times. Also, the ending wraps up all the loose ends in about 2 pages
that needed 170 pages to lead up to. All in all, though, RECOMMENDED.

     I would like to finish this message with a totally unrelated
query.  Can anyone point me in the direction of "Venus on the Half-
shell"?  Is this a real book?  And if so, who is the author and what
is the publishing firm, etc.?  I have read just about everything by
Kurt Vonnegut and would like to tie up this loose end in my reading.

        Cheers,
        Greg

[ "Venus on the Halfshell" by Kilgore Trout is a science fiction
  novel mentioned in several of Vonnegut's novels.  At the time
  that Vonnegut wrote those novels, VotH was simply a prop from
  his imaginary universes.  Since then however, P.J. Farmer has
  written a book published as "Venus on the Halfshell" by Kilgore
  Trout.  It follows the descriptions and situations given by
  Vonnegut quite closely.  It is also part of general series of
  realizations of "imaginary" books and references being done by
  Farmer.  For more information about "Venus on the Halfshell"
  and the imaginary book series see [SFL V1 #157].      -- RDD  ]

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 11/30/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
some theories about the plot of TESB. People who are not familiar with
the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 29 NOV 1980 2137-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: some theories about TESB

  That the other hope is Darth Vader seems possible (a group of
us full of Thanksgiving dinner came up with a similar speculation,
since if Vader is Luke's father he may come crunching in on the
Emperor to prevent his son from being wiped out.
  However, the L=LF idea fits badly with SW4, since I can't see
an insular type like "Uncle Owen" accepting a brat off someone who
literally blew in from nowhere.  Furthermore, the timing seems off;
from evidence in SW4, LF died before L was old enough to remember
him, which doesn't fit with Obi-Wan having taken time to train him
--- though I can see Obi-Wan being devious enough not to remark on
the kind of semblance between [father] and [son].
  Also, your schedule doesn't fit at all with the 3 trilogies
announced and the schedule they are announced for; parts 7-9
are supposed to be substantially removed from 4-6.
  Also, I think some of what you outline is much too good for
Lucasfilms, Inc., to plan on; it requires depths of character and
plot they show no signs of plumbing.  (With the way the Force has
been puffed up as the solution to everyone's troubles, I can also
see Gordon Dickson claiming that such a plot line was taken from
his Childe cycle, in which it is assumed that the Genetic General
is also the founder of his line of supermen.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 DEC 1980 0734-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #152
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Monday, 1 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - Legal Computers & Chameleon Trilogy & Pussyfoot,
  SF Music - Cosmos, SF TV - Cosmos, TESB - How much & Plot Theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1980 0950-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: COMPUTERS AND THE LAW

For those who wish to pursue the Computers and the Law idea
a bit further, there is a new list: INFO-LAW at AI.  As usual,
INFO-LAW-REQUEST at AI takes care of administrivia.  This list
has people interested in "legal computers," privacy, software
protection, and quite a few other topics.
        Mike
 
------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1980 (Sunday) 2335-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: For those who love puns...

    I highly recommend the series by Piers Anthony consisting of
"A Spell for Chameleon", "The Source of Magic", and "Castle Roogna".
Strictly Fantasy, but the puns come so fast and on so many levels
that any appreciator of good sick humour will love it.  At one point
in the story a minor protagonist is one Magician Murphy, whose talent
is making plans go wrong.  Beyond the usual plays on words the humour
gets \really/ sick.  Love it.

-- Dave Smith

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1980 0019-PST (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Pussyfoot and the Joymakers (obscure enough subject, eh?)
To: SF-LOVERS at AI

   --------------------------------------------------------------

 The topic matter of this message falls squarely between two separate
 mailing lists, so I am mailing it to both -- I apologize in advance
 to anyone who has to wade through this thing twice!

   --------------------------------------------------------------

For several years, there has been sitting on a shelf in my SF
collection a book called "The Age of the Pussyfoot", by Frederik
Pohl (1969). Somehow I never got around to reading it, but I saw
it sitting there pouting and decided to give it a run through.
The story was rather amusing.

It involves a man "frozen" in 1969 after dying in a fire, who
is brought back to life 500 years later. Everyone (well, almost
everyone) in this society carries around little units called
"Joymakers". These gadgets are actually little super-terminals
that connect by radio to a massive computer complex in each
metropolitan area. They are something of a mixed blessing. They
are continually telling you that you have 3 priority messages,
2 personal messages, a pending communication, a request to play
tennis, a solicitation from a law firm, an impending personal
visit, an overdrawn bank account, etc., etc...  They are the
only way to organize the MASSES of data that this society has
available; you'd never even be able to figure out what to watch
on television without a Joymaker to filter out the stuff it
knows you want from the umpteen thousand channels.  They even
spray you with tranquilizers and dispense contraceptive pills
when required -- and can deliver realistic kisses and hugs to
you from remote callers via direct neural stimulation.  Quite
a gadget.  Note that they are nothing in themselves but a link
to a central facility. Many of the various servo-mechanisms are
telling our hero throughout the book that "we are all the same"
-- that is, talking to any of them is the same as talking to
your own unit -- they all connect with the same machine buried
in the central city somewhere.

As I worked my way through the novel, I began to feel oddly
uncomfortable.  This poor guy is continuously being bombarded
with messages, communication requests, data inputs, etc., and
you have to be an expert just to tell the Joymaker how to filter
out the stuff you WANT to know about. In fact, our hero is rather
inexpert at this, and gets killed as a consequence (no matter,
he gets brought back again, too).  As I sat trying to figure out
exactly what it was that was bothering me, my nearby terminal
flashed with three [You have new mail] messages, a SEND message
delivered directly to my terminal from an ITS system, a local
user requesting communication via a local link... and two of
my phone lines started ringing.

Egads!  We have met the Joymaker and it is us!  While my Teleray
terminal has not (yet) begun dispensing contraceptives, the rest
of the parallel is strikingly clear. It brings up some interesting
questions concerning how a WORLDNET will function. With the amount
of netmail, messages, informational data and similar niceties
flying about this VERY LIMITED POPULATION network, what would a
"real" WORLDNET be like?  Clearly we would NEED "Joymakers" to
filter things out, and if they did not do a REALLY good job of NOT
filtering out the WRONG things, alot of people could get fouled up
very fast! It brings up an interesting question of whether a "bad"
filter is better than no filter at all in such a situation.  One
thing's for sure, if we have a true WORLDNET and no good filtering
mechanisms, we definitely WILL need our "Joymakers" to spray the
tranquilizer around!

--Lauren--

P.S. There is one more element to this novel that must be
     mentioned. At the end of the story, there is a note from the
     author concerning the genesis of the book.  He tells how the
     basic idea of the "Joymaker" was derived from some (limited)
     exposure he had to the MIT Project MAC in 1969!  He goes on
     to describe the amazing 7090 systems (cough, wheeze, gasp)
     with their remote terminals dialing in on (amazing!) phone
     lines!

     One can only imagine what he'd say if he saw what that
     technology has "evolved" into.

     Where's my Joymaker? ...

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1980 20:23:54-PST
From: Phil Karn (ihnss!karn @ berkeley)
Subject: Music in Cosmos

I haven't been getting issues of SF-LOVERS too regularly, so I don't
know if anyone else has identified the music used in Carl Sagan's
COSMOS.  Aside from Vangelis, he has used bits of the following:

   1. The Planets - Holst (of course!)
   2. Sequencer, Synergy - Synergy
   3. You are Not Alone - Roy Buchanan
   4. Meddle - Pink Floyd

I have to agree that his choices of music are among the best points
of the show.  I recently bought Albedo 0.39 by Vangelis just to see
the reaction of my sophisticated non-believer roommate...

   --Phil

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1980 2341-PST
From: Dolata@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Cosmos Music, Carl Sagan almost 'gets his' on live TV.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the question, "What is the
Cosmos Music".  I am sorry if anyones contribution is not mentioned,
I seem to have lost some of the messages. Also, I cannot promise that
the list is correct, I have tried to purchase each album and verify,
but I couldn't find them all.


Artist     Album               Cut Name           When in Cosmos

Vangelis   "Heaven and Hell"   not-given          Theme piece

Vangelis   "Albedo 0.39"       Alpha              several times

Synergy    "Electronic Realizations for Rock
            Orchestra" OR "Sequencer" (not sure)  Retrograde motion

Froese     "Ages"              Metropolis         Spherical Flatland

A song done originally by Paul Winter Consort     Arizona Indian ruins
called "Icarus", apparently redone by some
other (unknown) group


     On a second, slightly related note, Carl Sagan almost got "RF-ed"
on live TV about 2 weeks ago!  Just before the Voyager flyby, I was
at Cal Tech, when a bunch of CIT undergraduates heard that there was
to be a live, televised symposium at Baxter Audatorium with several
notables, including Carl Sagan.  Several events were planned to
commemerate the presence of such a distinguished super star amoung
us mere puny mortals.  There was a Sagan worship service, where a
bunch of students stared in AWE at his book, a Carl Sagan sound
alike contest, and the capping event was to have been the Watch
Carl Blush event.  The plan was;

As Carl sat on the stage, a series of students were going to sneak
into the back of the aud using a purloined aud key. They would then
dash across stage in the following order.  First, a student carrying
a largish model of Saturn, hotly pursued by another carrying a
cardboard model of Voyager exclaiming "BEEP BEEP BEEP". Immediatly
after that, a bikini clad frosh of the female persuasion would run
over, tossle his hair, and give him a big kiss.  Two more students
would complete the train carrying a big sign saying "WE LOVE YOU
CARL", and all would then exit stage left, out the other backstage
door, and be given a chance to escape by a crowd of milling "by
standers" who would be in the way of any pursuers (hee hee hee).

Alll went as planned until the time came to open the aud door. The
decoy student "tripped" down the stairs nearby, luring the security
guard away.  The group ran from the bushes, opened the door and
prepared to dash into history, only to be confronted by 4 California
Highway Patrolmen, with guns, clubs, and implements of brutality.
The cops pulled the door back shut, and the students quickly turned
tail, and beat it into the night.

Turns out that Jerry Brown had decided it was time to make some
political hay and so had showed up to deliver a 'suprise' speech
announcing some flakey drivial.  As governer of Cal, he gets a
honor guard of four CHP.  And so, Sagan escaped this live public
TV debacle.

Too bad.

------------------------------

Date:  1 December 1980 0204-EST (Monday)
From: Lars.Ericson at CMU-10A
Subject:  TESB Profitability

Does anybody know how much money was made, and how many people saw,
TESB and SW respectively?  Also, what time of year was each one
released?  Thanx, Larswe

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/01/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss some theories about the plot of TESB.  People who are not
familiar with the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 1 December 1980 01:31-EST
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  TESB -- Darth Vader as other hope

This doesn't detract from the possibility that Darth is the other
hope, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that only one of the
two (Luke, Darth) will emerge from SW7.  This seems to imply that
if Darth is the "other hope" that he will die in saving the "galaxy
far, far away..."

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 12/01/80 01:56:29 Re: Surely there are bigger holes?

In reply to Chip's comments:

    "I can't see an insular type like "Uncle Owen" accepting
     a brat off someone who literally blew in from nowhere."

Farmers tend to be hard up for cheap labor.  Certainly Owen doesn't
want Luke going anywhere.  I have no trouble imagining a reasonable
scenario whether LF was a life-long buddy or a shipwrecked random.

Furthermore, the timing seems off;

    "from evidence in SW4, LF died before L was old enough
     to remember him, which doesn't fit with Obi-Wan having
     taken time to train him --- though I can see Obi-Wan
     being devious enough not to remark on the kind of
     semblance between [father] and [son]."

Can you remember your father from when you were 1 year old?  Or even
two?  A year seems long enough for all sorts of things to happen --
training, farming, leaving for the wars...  also, Obi-Wan and others
have many times remarked on how much Luke is like his father.  When
there is a minimum of talking in a movie, you have to wonder why
those particular comments are put in.  Not accidentally, I bet.
Again, I think L = LF one way (time) or another (clone)...

    "Also, your schedule doesn't fit at all with the 3 trilogies
     announced and the schedule they are announced for; parts 7-9
     are supposed to be substantially removed from 4-6."

I don't see what the problem is at all.  I think it's a pretty good
guess considering I didn't even know what the "announced schedule"
was.  Just have one less "more of TESB" movie, and one more "Vader
unbound" movie; the main point was the way a time-jump fits neatly
into the required flashback.  Of course, given the info that there
are three coherent trilogies, you don't need anything else to figure
out that the most likely sequence is 6,1,2,3,7,8,9, whatever the
connections between them.

    "Also, I think some of what you outline is much too good for
     Lucasfilms, Inc., to plan on; it requires depths of character
     and plot they show no signs of plumbing."

Alas, this is probably the best argument.  The other thing that makes
me skeptical of the theory is that it's not a whole lot to spread over
that many episodes... on the other hand, Godzilla has starred in how
many movies to date?

By the way, has anyone ever summarized all the "announced" info?
People keep saying things like "you know of course that Lucas says",
which of course I don't.  I get all my dope through SFL, and forget
much of it.

--Ken

P.S. I just realized that it's quite possible Lucas will re-edit
     previous episodes to jibe more closely with whatever the final
     results are.  In fact, that's what I would do myself.  Besides,
     just like "Close Encounters", it might draw a few more people
     than a simple re-release would...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 DEC 1980 0707-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #153
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 2 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:
        SF TV - Ellison on Tomorrow Today & Most Violent Show,
                 TESB - When it began & Plot Theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 0146-PST (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Ellison on Tomorrow

My sources, in their usual timely fashion, have informed me that our
friend Harlan will appear on the Tomorrow show (NBC -- 12:30 AM) on
the night of Dec. 2 -- that is, Tuesday night / Wednesday Morning.

My sources for such things are USUALLY accurate, but you NEVER KNOW.

Sorry for the short notice.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date:  1 Dec 1980 at 1211-CST
From: david at UTEXAS-11 
Subject: TV violence

A Washington UPI report says NBC is the No. 1 network for prime
time violence this year, and NBC's "Buck Rogers" is the most
violent prime time series, averaging 26 violent acts per hour,
according to a survey conducted by the National Coalition on
Television Violence.

------------------------------

Date: 1 December 1980 1013-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: SW and TESB release dates

SW was released in early June (senior ditch day at Caltech). I fondly
recall standing in line for 7 hours at the Mann's Chinese to see it.
By the way, Caltech is NOT spelled Cal Tech.  TESB was released in
June (July) of last summer (this is all the distant past to me). TESB
is still making money.  Is money defined as box-office gross or toys,
etc too.  The number of people who saw them will probably never be
known due to the large number of repeat customers (5 for me).

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/02/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They
discuss some theories about the plot of TESB.  People who are not
familiar with the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1980 19:52:51-PST
From: E.jeffc at Berkeley
Subject: Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader

There is only one flaw, as far as I can see, as to the proposition
Darth Vader is Luke's father.  At one point in the film, we see
Vader's helmet being placed on his head. The back of that head did
not look very human to me.  The way I interpret them, the laws of
genetics say that Luke cannot be the son of Darth Vader. Why, then,
does Vader claim that he is?  Simple!  It's all an attempt to get
Luke to crack. Wouldn't you if you heard that Darth Vader was your
father? And of course, Darth Vader would feel no guilt at having
lied about the relationship. In any case, the claimed relationship
will serve its purpose soon enough: it will make you see the next
movie in the Star Wars saga.

------------------------------

Date:  2 Dec 1980 0458-EST
From: Doug Alan <LS.Nessus at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Darth Vader's head and Time travel in TESB

     The reason that Vader's head is weird is almost certainly because
he was badly injured by accident or through misadventure - not because
he is an not human.

     I have my own theory about Luke's ancestry.  In it Luke's
hyperdrive glitches, he goes back in time, and he decides that he can
defeat the future empire if he makes a bunch of clones of himself, all
of whom can use the force well.  These clones become the Jedi knights.
Before these clones grow up, Luke is influenced by the dark side and
becomes the emperor. One of the clones grows to be Obiwan Kenobi, one
becomes Darth Vader, and one other one falls through a black whole,
pops up millions of years in the past, and begins a hereditary line
that evolves into Yoda's species. Before Darth turns over to the dark
side, he decides to have a clone son, who becomes Luke.

     Therefore, Luke is the Emperor, Vader is Luke's father and
Obiwan's brother, Obiwan is Luke's and the Emperor's son (ever
notice that the Emperor looks a little like Ben?), Yoda is Luke's
Great^1000000 grandson, and Luke has no mother.  The other hope is
the Emperor (who Ben and Yoda know are Luke) who might, through by
being sent the frozen body of his old friend Han Solo, be moved
into converting back to his old goodness.

     More seriously, I truly hope they don't bring time travel into
Star Wars. Backwards time travel is messy. It involves either gross
paradoxes, or preditermination (parallel universe travelling is not
included because it is really sideways in time -- not backwards).
Since paradoxes are unacceptible (at least to me), this means that
in order to travel back in time, the universe must be preditermined.
Cosmic Censorship and no free will!  Ick!!!  I'd rather have free
will than be just a puppet on the strings of fate.

                                --Doug Alan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 DEC 1980 0910-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #154
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 3 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:
        SF Music - Cosmos, SF TV - Most Violent Show & HGttG,
             SF Books - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
               What Happens at a Con - Loscon 7 Party,
       Time Travel - Reward and Paradoxes, TESB - When it Began
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  3 Dec 1980 at 0149-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ COSMOS' MUSIC ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In this past Sunday's chapter of Cosmos (about the "Big Bang") the
music I particularly would like to identify comes at the point where
the picture first shifts from some white field-flowers against the
sky, to the group of radio telescopes. That's when those deep, moving
piano chords erupt.  Is \that/ by Vangelis, and if so, which album?

------------------------------

Date:  2 Dec 1980 at 1006-CST
From: clyde at UTEXAS-11 (Clyde Hoover)
Subject: Ultraviolence on the telly.

     Interestingly enough,  this  group also  rated  Saturday  morning
cartoon shows  on the  amount of  violence. The  winner was  The  Bugs
Bunny- Roadrunner Hour, with, as I recall, one violent act per minute.

     It is  also interesting  that  those Chuck  Jones (Bugs  Bunny  &
Roadrunner) cartoons of 20+ years ago  (the era of REAL animation  and
ingenuity) happen  to be  the  only ones  worth watching  on  Saturday
morning, the rest of the fare being psuedo- animated  'super-teenager'
crap.

     But then, I always liked 'Space  Ghost', one of the more  violent
cartoon shows of the 60s.   I always love to  see the baddies get  the
ever-loving crap blown out of them 20 times in a half-hour.

And, David, it hasn't affected me at  all.  I mean I haven't used  the
M-16 hanging over my desk on anybody that didn't REALLY deserve it.

P.S. Didn't that group also mention that comic books lead to  juvenile
     deliquency and sexual perversion?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 1709-EST
From: STEVE LIONEL at STAR via <YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

When I saw "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" advertised in the SF
Book Club, it looked interesting enough to make me order it.  After
reading it, I wish I hadn't bothered.  Not being plugged into fandom,
(except for reading SFL), I hadn't ever heard of HGttG before, but
the book jacket says that it is a popular radio show in England and
will "soon" be presented as a TV series in the US.

The book reads like a disconnected set of children's bedtime stories,
with frequent ramblings about subjects which have no connection to
the story. I can see that this sort of thing is supposed to be funny,
and I noticed that the author used to contribute to Monty Python,
and I can even see that adapting a book from radio material could be
difficult, but if the radio show is anything like the book, I don't
think I'd enjoy it.

Since there is at least ONE person out there in SFL land who is
familiar with the series (a towel imprinted with "Don't panic"
was mentioned), I'd like to ask:

   1. Is the radio show any good/any better than the book?
      What is the book missing that makes the difference?
   2. Does anyone have more details on the proposed show in
      the US?  I assume that it would be a PBS show, ala
      Dr. Who (whom I adore).
   3. Is there anyone who LIKES the book? If so, please tell
      me why.

                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date:  2 Dec 1980 (Tuesday) 2122-EDT
From: DREIFU at WHARTON-10 (Henry Dreifus)
Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

fantastic reading.  Suggest it to all those who have not read it.
-- Doug Adams, Harmony books, New York.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 1709-EST
From: ALYSON L ABRAMOWITZ via <YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

I've not read the SF Book Club book yet (it just came on Monday) but
I have very fond memories of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
radio show. I remember it as a show with Monty Python-like humor and
science fiction combined. But then I only heard two (?) episodes a
couple of years back when I was in England.

I'll echo Steve's request for information about the TV show in the
US. We generally seem to get British shows 3 to 5 years after they
show in England (for example, Monty Python and Dr. Who) so I was very
surprised to read on the dustjacket for the Bookclub edition of HGTTG
that that it will soon exist on both sides of the Atlantic. I believe
that the British version of the show was scheduled for next season.

Do we have any British fans getting SFL?

I don't like Dr. Who, tho, (the plots are dumb) so perhaps it's just a
case of different tastes.

                Alyson L. Abramowitz

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 09:56 PST
From: Brodie.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Loscon 7, Anaheim CA, November 26-30, 1980

    "Loscon was a great success I mean that most sinceeeeeerly!
     The site was just fantastic and the programming was manna---
     Oh, by the way, which one was Ana?"

            ^^^ "Literary" allusion

Death to all runners. Galacticon jackknifed, resulting in massive
spillage.  Hordes of drobes, war and otherwise, roled through the
halls. A convention is what you make of it.

APA-ARPA (that's us) met in Paul Schauble's cube on Saturday night;
not a great praty as such, and the bathtub was full of y.t.'s drinks
at the end of the evening. Alan Frisbie.EOS at PARC brought plentiful
munchies, but the mind of the group was not on food; neither was it
on what it had been on during the first party at Westercon; no, we
had an absorbing (no, really!) discussion of networks and security,
dominated to a great degree by the lovely and sequined Toni TMP at
MIT but-really-at TRW, who told us all kinds of unclassified details
about MX and No Such Agency. DAVE at UCLA-Security was there, as was
of course Cheryl Chapman.ES at PARC, JPM at SAIL, and several others
who didn't stick it out and so I will return the insult by not
mentioning them. Larry Niven and Fuzzy wandered in, read a magazine,
stayed long enough not to appear bored, then left, bored.  It broke
up around 1 a.m., and we left in various clusters, but anyone who
tries to figure out Southern California social relationships without
the LOSFS org(y) chart is doomed to failure.

The film program included Inc Shr Man, The Invisible Boy, I Was a
Teenage Werewolf, and other noted works, the focus being on Jack
Arnold, who directed many of the films they showed, including the
classic (why?) It Came From Outer Space, a movie truly not worth
seeing, even in 3D, period, I found the programming, while
interesting, to leave little room for choice, but who goes to
programming anyway, question mark

The big highlight of the con was the atsign buttons Frisbie.EOS at
PARC came up with.  For $.75, a huckie made buttons out of Frizz's
Xerox- printed atsigns.  Boyoboy, what fun. Everyone should own one.
The best feature of the hotel was that you didn't have to take the
elevators; there were only three floors, and it was split level. The
smog was bogus par usual, supplemented by ash from the big burnout
underway in Southern. What a bummer, man, my car got dirty.

All in, it was the expected convention, a jaunt out of reality,
through the Twilight Zone festival and Godzilla marathon, past the
orgiastic Con suite activities, the amazing and incredible Southern
California (insert here sexist remarks to your taste) and lack of
(insert here proper combination of moralistic/intellectually elite
pap), then back on I-5 and by the Olive Tree Restaurant in Kettleman,
where 50 ml of lasagne goes for $3.95, and back to the fantasy of
reality in the ivory cloud-towers of Palo Alto, where you can see
the horsies talking each to each while you eat lunch.  I do not
think that they will talk to me.

        Richard

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 09:51 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: $$$$ for Time Travel

The Los Angeles Times for Sunday, November 30, had an interesting
classified ad (First page of ad section, lower-right corner):

     "Will pay large reward to anyone to show me
      how to go back in time to July 30, 1980.
      7 Trojan Dr.,  Bridgeport, Conn. 06610"

I don't know how large "large" is, but I don't think it would pay
for the idea I heard mentioned at Loscon by, I believe, Dr. Forward:
First take a 100 solar-mass black hole and spin it so the surface
approaches the speed of light...

Happy reward hunting,
Alan Frisbie

------------------------------

APPLE@MIT-MC 12/02/80 22:59:40 Re: Doug Alan on Time Travel Paradoxes

     I don't see why Doug says that, when dealing with time travel
backwards, either the universe is "preditermined" (sic) or there
are paradoxes.  One can conceive of a non-predetermined (post-
determined?) universe where paradoxes cannot exist.  One such
universe was described by Isaac Asimov in his novel "The End of
Eternity." In this universe, any change in the past is immediately
reflected in all future times.  So, using a well-worn example, if
you were to go back into the past and kill your grandmother, then
you would cease to exist in any time period, and no one would have
any memory of your existence.  People in the future, looking at
police records, would see "Woman killed by unknown assailant,"
because the fact of her death exists.
        
     Note that I am not talking about creating parallel universes.
Parallel universes, if they exist at all, cannot have any influence
on this one, so their existence is not significant. If you say that
whenever history is changed, a parallel universe is created, then
you might as well say that the present one is changed because only
one universe can "exist" at a time: one's own.

     Some people might say that this is really pre-determinism, but
it's not.  Although is is possible to see all history at once, a
"time line," and see, for example, that at point x Mr. Jones goes to
the bathroom, and afterwards (at point x + e) he washes his hands,
the ability to SEE what happens is not the same as DETERMINING what
will happen in the future.  So if at point x - e, Mr. Jones looks
into the future and sees that he is going to be in the bathroom in a
few minutes, and decides NOT to go to the bathroom, then at the moment
of his decision the past is changed, and if we (the neutral observer)
now look at point x-e we shall find that Mr. Jones saw that he was NOT
going to to bathroom, and following the time line from that point, we
see that Mr. Jones acts on that basis.  At point x, we do not have Mr.
Jones in the bathroom, but instead Mr. Jones is wherever he decided to
go after seeing that he was not going to go to the bathroom.  (Perhaps
he is cleaning up a mess on the living room carpet.)  So the universe
always remains consistent.

        All for now.  HLPV.

                        - Jim Cox

------------------------------

Date:  3 Dec 1980 0732-EST
From: Doug Alan <G.Nessus at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Apple's Version of Time Travel

In this theory, if one goes back in time, he changes the time line.
(Since there is a sequence of different time lines, there is implied
a `hyper-time' that governs the changes in the normal-time line.  I
could rave about whether the hyper-time line changes or whether one
may travel into the past of hyper-time [What about hyper-hyper time,
etc.?], but I won't for now.  In any case....)  Since the time-line
he leaves is not the same as the time line in which he reappears, he
has not travelled into the past of his own original time line, but
into the past of some other new time line.  This time travel is not
travel backwards in time, but travel sideways and backwards in time.
This is significantly different.
     I still maintain that one cannot travel into the past of his own
time line without paradox or predEtermination.

                                --Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date:  2 Dec 1980 0929-PST
From: Achenbach@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Puppet on the strings of fate?

        How about in the hands of Frank Oz?

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 0637-PST
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI  (Attn: Don)
Subject: SW and TESB release dates

TESB was released in May of 79.  I saw it first on 6/6 after it
had been out about two weeks (at least.)

Somehow I thought that SW was released earlier in the year than
June. That was a long time ago so details get fuzzy sometimes.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 2 December 1980 14:53-EST
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Dates of release of SW, TESB

Star Wars was released on May 25, 1977.
The Empire Strikes Back was released during the equivalent week
in 1980.  (May 27 ?)

[ The SF-LOVERS series of special issues on Star Wars and TESB
  began on 23 May 1980, which I believe was the national release
  date.  There was some variation in first showings across the
  country due to sneak previews, openning night benefits, etc.
                                                        -- RDD  ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 DEC 1980 0756-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #155
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Thursday, 4 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:
            SF Books - Legal Computers & Cyberiad & HGttG,
               What happens at a Con? - Loscon 7 party,
   SF Movies - Film questions, TESB - Begin again? & When it began,
                 SF TV - Star Trek's Tribble Troubles
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1980 0851-EST
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Computers/SF & Law

Sigh ... after having to move again (only two months in the last
place) my books are once again snuggled in boxes in a drafty attic,
where I can't look up this memory: a story by William Tenn in which
an Earthman kills a Venusian and is tried and convicted by a Justice
Machine.  Vintage Tenn.

---Pete

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1980 11:02:46-PST
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: "Hitchiker's Guide" complaint

Steve Lionel's complaint about "The Hitchiker's Guide to the
Galaxy" is reminiscent of a friend's complaint about Stanislaw
Lem's "Cyberiad: Tales for a Cybernetic Age".  He thought it
was just a series of disconnected tales that were "everything
that sf is ridiculed as being", petty, and demeaning. Then one
day I snuck up on him and read him the start of the story on
Dragons and Probability, and he bust out laughing.  Then he
reread the book and enjoyed it immensly. All this is presented
for just two reasons: (1) Maybe Steve was looking for too much
or something the book was not intended to be (I found the little
I've read of it to be rather humorous), and; (2) This seemed like
a splendid opportunity to plug a great book. The only book I know
of which makes jokes about the Laws of Thermodynamics, computers,
robotics, atomic physics, and still is funny and very philosophical
politically (Stanislaw Lem is a Polish author who's works are
translated into English brilliantly).

                Ken

P.S. I should warn that none of the other four books of his I've
     read have even come close, and most aren't even worth buying
     (though the intro to "Memoirs Found in a Bathtub" is quite
     good).  If you've been disappointed by his other works, don't
     let that stop you from reading "Cyberiad"

P.P.S. The story about the electronic bard is probably the best.

------------------------------

Date:  3 Dec 1980 1023-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: "Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy"

There was a review of HGttG in the Sunday San Jose Mercury by
Richard Lupoff.  He too thought it sophmoric and dull.  Me, I
loved it. I heard the full radio show (there is another set of
episodes where they visit the Resturant at the End of Time) at
Seacon in Brighton, and although you don't get the voice char-
acterizations in the book (Marvin, the depressive robot, is
particularly good) the flavor is the same.  It was nominated
for the Hugo for best dramatic presentation, but lost (to
"Superman") in spite of wild applause at the ceremony from
patriotic Englishmen.

------------------------------

Date: 03 DEC 1980 1220-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy"

  --The material is definitely a matter of taste.  If you disliked
BEDAZZLED and hate Monty Python (some of the later representatives
of a specific strain of lunatic British humor) you won't like HGG;
it takes a certain sort of sense of humor that is commoner among
fans than among mundanes.  (I'd say a skewed sense of humor, but
looking at what most of this country thinks is funny ("Three's
Company"???) I think that's a misnomer.)
  --I recently read a Britisher's review of the book version; he
said flatly that there was no way a book could match the sound
effects, etc. of a radio show, and offered the SFBC issue as
evidence.
  --So far as I know, there is no expectation of HHG becoming a
television show; moving from radio to TV is bloody difficult to
do at well (to say nothing of being incredibly expensive, given
the number of effects that they get away with simply describing
on the radio).
  --According to the latest sales flyer from VIA OZ (a phone phreak's
private business; sells the aforementioned towels, and 10-oz. coffee
mugs labeled "Programming Fluid" in Moore Computer typeface), HHG will
be heard in this country (I think on National Public Radio) starting
in May 1981.  NPR includes WGBH-FM in Boston and a number of other
radio stations around the country.
  --The show is \immensely/ popular among English fans; the roar that
went up at the Hugo Award ceremony last year when it was listed among
the nominees for the Dramatic Presentation award caused Chris Reeve
(who was there to represent the winner, SUPERMAN (theoretically the
winners are well-kept secrets, but I'm told that Seacon told the
studio that SUPERMAN had won in order to get \somebody/ to show up))
to wonder whether the votes had been counted correctly. (Suspect there
were other factors in that noise, though; a lot of European fans feel
that the U.S. wields a disproportionate influence in SF and bitch
about it constantly.)
  --\I/ was mildly entertained by the book (but then, I've frequently
been told I have a warped sense of humor) and am looking forward to
the broadcasts.

------------------------------

Date:  3 Dec 1980 1304-PST
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  I have heard 8 or 9 episodes of the British program.  It is
worth hearing.  The quality is uneven but generally pretty good.
The humor consists of about equal parts of absurdity and dry
satire; definitely British, recognizably pythonesque. The plot
line is improbable.
 I believe the series is available on tape to fan club members.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1980 20:02 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

If you should come across the record album of HGttG, BE WARNED:
it is drastically cut! In an effort to squeeze 6 radio shows onto
four record sides, all sorts of things got dropped on the cutting
room floor.  I don't know what the original length of the radio
show was, but I'll play the album tonight and let you know tomorrow
how long it is.  Can anyone out there supply us with the length of
the radio version?

Alan Frisbie

  (Aside to Brodie.PA:   Watch out, Richard, or I'll tell 'em the
      REAL reason you liked LOSCON so much!   Also, the name is
      LASFS, not LOSFS.   And I doubt my buttons were the hit of
      the con, just SF-Lovers.)

------------------------------

Date:  3 Dec 1980 2324-EST
From: Doug Alan <G.Nessus at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Literary Allusion

Tired of lying in the sunshine
Decided that that's no fun
You are young and life is long
And there's time to write some literary puns
But then one day you find
You've wasted all your time
And a reader who hates puns has shot you with a gun

[There are no allusions, really.]
[Matter of fact, everything's an allusion.]

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1980 1119-PST
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: Questions about SW & TESB, and films in general

Could someone who is familiar with the inside news about the
release/scheduling/plans of SW and TESB tell us if there is a
projected date for the release of SW and TESB as a double bill
or double feature nationwide?  I would assume that this won't
happen until the gross for TESB by itself falls below a certain
level of income, but that releasing them as a double feature
would create a new surge of income and also help heighten
interest in the next film being released in the saga.

Could any such insiders also tell us if there is any chance that
such a paired release would be on the wide film, or would it
invariably be on the narrower film for smaller theaters?  (Are
those 70mm and 35mm or what?  I seem to have forgotten whatever
details I used to know about such things.  That also brings to
mind a separate question: How many showings does a film print
last before it gets all scratchy? I always get irritated when I
pay lots of money these days to see a current film, and am sub-
jected to a scratchy and damaged print. It spoils the illusion,
and might as well be on TV.  When a print gets scratchy and/or
damaged in appearance, does the distributor or filmmaker replace
it free, or does the theater owner have to pay for a new print
somehow?  I'm trying to figure out if there is some financial
incentive for a theater operator to keep a bad print going for
as long as he can, or if it wouldn't cost them anything more to
show a good print instead, and they're just mean.)

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date:     3 December 1980 1950-est
From:     LeBlanc.Student at MIT-Multics
Subject:  TESB release

TESB was released on May 21, 1980. Doesn't anyone remember the
SW information number that was active last May.  It played this
awful recording of Hans Solo and C3PO talking about their SW
adventures and encouraging everyone to see their new movie TESB.
The recording ended with a promise of a new message next month
but the number was quickly disconnected. WELL, ANYWAY, the phone
number ( 1-800-521-1980 ) had a special significance. When parced
5/21/1980 it gave the opening date for TESB.  Isn't that clever.
 
[ Thanks also go to MJL at MIT-MC, Rubenstein at HARV-10, and
  Hank.Walker at CMU-10A for correcting the date.     --  RDD ]

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/04/80 00:00:00  Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses
RAH's THE ROLLING STONES and the Star Trek episode THE TROUBLE WITH
TRIBBLES. People who are not familiar with the novel or the TV episode
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 02 Dec 1980 2217-PST
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: tribble troubles

I talked to David Gerrold down at LOSCON and he mentioned how
tribbles came about.  Apparently he was thinking of the plague
of rabbits in Austriala when he wrote it, but realized the
similarity to RAH's flat cats.  He sent the script to him,
seeking his approval, which was granted. Thus, although flat
cats may have influenced the development of the tribbles,
there has never been any question of David plagiarizing RAH's
work.

However, David himself has been ripped off by dealers selling
tribbles at SF and Trek conventions without paying the proper
royalties to him.  He has largely given up active enforcement
of his rights, since it is simply too difficult to police cons.

Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 DEC 1980 0644-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #156
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Friday, 5 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:
   Galacticon Info Query, SF Books - Lem & Legal Computers & HGttG,
   SF Movies - Film Questions, TESB - Plot Theories & When it Began
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  4 Dec 1980 at 1434-PST
From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien)
Subject: Galacticancelled?

     Does anyone out there know what happened to Galacticon?
Cancelling a big-city con that close to the con date seems
rare. I was looking forward to seeing Mike Jittlov's films
there, since that was to be his last show for awhile. (He's
disappearing into "Elves' Park", his first feature.)

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1980 08:57-EST
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Stanislaw Lem

I beg to disagree with CSVAX.arnold@Berkeley's comment that Lem's
other books aren't good.  "Cyberiad" is pretty good but I found it
tiresome after a while.  His "Star Diaries" I liked much better. 
It's also a collection of short stories, but they tend to be more
developed than the ones in "Cyberiad".  The 'Seventh Voyage' story
is one of the funniest time travel stories I've seen (I still
chuckle when I think of "I reached my destination safely, thanks
to the courage and resourcefulness I had displayed when only two
children...")

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 1709-EST
From:   STEVE LIONEL at STAR via <YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Telzey Amberdon stories

A little while ago, SSteinberg referred to the Telzey Amberdon series
of stories (where a "portable law library" was mentioned).  I've been
a fan of Telzey since I was a teen-ager, probably because I liked the
combination of a beautiful 16-year-old blonde with psi powers.  James
Schmitz wrote those stories, which appeared in Analog in the 70's.
I have two books about Telzey, "The Telzey Toy" and "The Universe
Against Her".  This latter is really a loosely connected series of
short stories from Analog.  There was also another Schmitz book about
a friend of Telzey's named Trigger Argee.  Can anyone help me with the
title?

These books are fun to read; I'd recommend them as examples of good
psi stories.
                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1980 17:58:10-PST
From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley
Subject: HGttG

About the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. A friend of mine just
bought the book, having had the LP for a long time.  If you have
the book (or record), don't buy the other.  The book is just a
transcription of the record (which is why it probably reads so
badly).

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1980 18:21 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

I played the HGttG records last night and timed them.  Wow, are
they ever cut!  The results were (Chapter & page references are
to the Pan paperback):

Side 1   24m 24s  From the beginning TO the Vogon's order to throw
                  them out the airlock (middle of chapter 7, page 56).

Side 2   21m 11s  History of Earth and the Ejection from the airlock
                  TO going into orbit around Magrathea (end of
                  chapter 14, page 88).

Side 3   23m 46s  History of Magrathea TO the Factory Floor scene
                  (middle of chapter 24, page 122).

Side 4   27m 28s  Explanation of the mice TO the computer explosion
                  (end of chapter 32, page 154), followed by an ad
                  for THE BOOK.

These times are plus-or-minus a few seconds due to including about
two seconds of silence at the start and finish of each side.  If the
original radio episodes were each 30 minutes long (which I suspect is
correct), then ALMOST HALF THE SHOW IS MISSING!  Obviously, the next
step is to get tapes of the show and identify the cut segments.  Any
volunteers?  (That's spelled: s-u-c-k-e-r-s).

Alan Frisbie

P.S.   If you do decide to buy the records, inspect them carefully!
       Most of the ones at Change of Hobbit (West L.A.) had minor
       scratches.   My set also has a lot of noise, clicks & pops.

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1980 22:16-EST
From: William B. Daul <DAUL at MIT-MC>
Subject: QUERY

1.  Anyone know when or if the Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy
    is on the radio in the SF bay area (San Francisco)?

2.  No number 2.

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1980 09:16-EST
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Questions about films in general

Nowadays, with all those 4x and 6x shopping mall closets that are
being passed off as movie theatres, the advent of xenon lamps (at
least 15 year old technology), and reels so large that it takes a
block and tackle to move them, the amount of (man)handling of the
film has been reduced considerably.  However, in a lot of cases,
all this automation means one projectionist per 4x or 6x, and the
care and maintenence of the equipment (and thus the film) suffers.
(One plus to all of that is you'll no longer see a missed changeover
in those theatres, with the attendant refocusing, mirror adjusting,
and whatnot.  The graininess typically seen approaching normal
changeover is also gone.)

Now the catch: all the automated works is for 35mm film.  Properly
handled 35 mm film should last about 4-6 months on two showings a
day before becoming unplayable. However, if you want to see a clean
print, go see it in the first week, two at the most - and see it in
a first-run theatre if you can. They generally get the film with the
magnetic (as opposed to optical) soundtrack, notwithstanding Dolby.
Same holds for seeing any film shown in the 70mm version.  See that
one over a later showing in 35mm, especially if it was originally
shot on 70mm film.

Depending on the relationship between the theatre chain and their
distributor and the number of prints (fresh or otherwise) available,
the volume of business, etc., determines whether or not a paricular
theatre opts to try to get a fresh print.  Since they are rented
copies, there is no incentive to keep a bad print going - in fact,
it is the other way around.  Generally, a print is considered bad
based on the number and quality of the splices in it, eventually
considered unusable when the "rain" obliterates the picture.

But, let's not compare anything to TV "presentations" until we get
the aspect ratio changed.  I was prepared to be disappointed when
2001 finally made it to TV, and it came off surprisingly well.
The same can be said for most of the movies-by-satellite.  What
was disappointing was making the mistake of showing off two of
my all-time favorite films - which I originally saw in their 70mm
and Cinerama versions with multiple-channel magnetic soundtracks,
in a revival several years later in 35mm with optical soundtracks.
The impact was gone - so was the color.  The first TV showing of
each of those films came off better...

As for the double-bill, don't hold your breath, but my guess is
that that won't happen until a year (or less) before the next
episode is released - as a refresher.

--Frank

------------------------------

Date:  4 Dec 1980 1809-EST
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Motion Picture Industry Policies

In response to Will Martin's questions concerning poor prints of
films, etc.:

     I've been heavily involved in the MIT film series for over 6
years.  Since most of the films we show are 35 mm, we usually deal
with the same film bookers (the people who take orders for playdates
and make arrangements for prints, they work for the film companies)
as regular theaters. The industry is very bizzare, with many practices
which would be considered illegal elsewhere (for instance, we have to
pay significantly more for a film than a theater simply because they
know that college groups have lower overhead than theaters).  The
quality control on prints is almost non-existent.  We screen every
print we receive and return about half as unshowable. The companies
consider us insane and say that no theaters are so picky (even so,
many of the prints we show are barely acceptable to our audience).
Most theaters don't go through the effort of checking prints. There
is no extra charge for a different print, just a lot of hassle (we
often pay to fly them Federal Express from other cities - this can
cost $100 a print).  You can't have a new print made, generally new
prints are never made except for a major re-release (this is a real
shame; the industry lets most of its great old films deteriorate
until they are unshowable - all they seem to care about is their
upcoming major releases, the theatrical market for great old films
is very small (mostly, I think, because of the hassles in getting
good prints)).

     When a film such as SW is first released, about 1000 prints are
made.  The downtown theater which has the premiere run pays several
hundred thousand dollars guaranteed and 90% of their net after costs
(this is why they make all their money on the concessions stand).
They can replace a print that is wearing out by purchasing one of
the uncirculated prints (35 mm prints cost about $2000, 70 mm prints
cost more than 4 times as much). General-release theaters don't have
that option, they can trade if other prints are available (the print
of Star Wars shown at Worldcon was made up of the best reels that
could be found in several dozen prints, but no theater gets that
kind of treatment).

     There is no excuse for the quality of prints.  However, in
most cases the studios can't make more prints - for some reason
the contracts which are drawn up allow only a specific number to
be made (possibly this prevented one avenue of cheating by the
companies against producers, actors, and others with a piece of
the pie). It's annoying, because we pay a $500 to $1000 guarantee
versus 65% of the \gross/ (and we even have to pay for shipping
the print out of our share) for showing films which came out a
year or two ago for \one night/.  They should be able to provide
reasonable prints!

     I hope this clarifies things a bit.  Sorry to go on so long
about this, but I have hundreds of horror stories concerning film
companies.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/05/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss some theories about the plot of TESB and the release dates
for episodes 4 and 5.  People who are not familiar with the movie
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1980 1504-EST
From: Saul Jaffe and Joe Zitt via Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Forwarded comments on StarWars

1. The time loop concept for the pretzel logic version of the Star
   Wars nonology (I think that's the word for a triple trilogy)
   is balderdash. For one thing, it's suspiciously similar to the
   historical loop in The Planet of the Apes mythos.  Would Lucas
   REALLY be able to get away with that?

   Picture Luke Sr./Luke Jr./Darth Vader doing a hat and cane
   version of I'm My Own Grandpa.

2. Star Wars 4 was released May 21, 1977 
   Star Wars 5 was released May 21, 1980
   ( a subtle pattern begins to emerge...)

                                          Saul Jaffe and Joe Zitt

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1980 0650-PST
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI (Attn: Don)
Subject: My previous message on SW and TESB release dates

Of course TESB was released in 80 (not 79 as I had typed.) I can't
subtract seven months from December and still get the same year
until after I've had my morning coffee.  Sorry about that.

Don

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 DEC 1980 0837-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #157
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Saturday, 6 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:
     SF Movies - Film Questions, SF Books - Lem & Telzey & HGttG,
   Physics Today - Forward Info Transfer, SF TV - Cosmos and Sagan,
                         TESB - Plot Theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 December 1980 0950-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: Re 2001 on TV

I read somewhere a long time ago that many films are shot with a TV
showing in mind.  They keep most of the action towards the center of
the screen so that the sides can be chopped off to fit the TV aspect
ratio.  The problem with titles still exists of course.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1980 15:15 PST
From: HOFFMAN at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Lem's works

   From having read a half dozen books by S. Lem, I concur with
most of the recent comments, but I have some additional notes: The
"brilliant" translations of his work are, in my opinion, only those
translated by M. Kandel, whose work is absolutely beyond compare.
For translation pyrotechnics (replete with wonderful scientific and
etymological puns) try Lem's "Futurological Congress" tr. by Kandel.
Unfortunately, other translators have done some of Lem's best known
titles, like "Solaris".  I would love to see Kandel try them.  In
fact, I would love to send an encomium to Kandel if I knew where to
reach him.  --Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: 05 DEC 1980 1343-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Trigger Argee

 Appears in at least one Telzey story, which caused some of us at
the MITSFS to refer to "The Adventures of Telzey Lumbertion and
her horse Trigger".  (Also, several of us felt that while Telzey
was marginally acceptable by feminist standards, Trigger was too
hormone-controlled to be a believable competent heroine.

 Trigger appears on her own in A TALE OF TWO CLOCKS (recently
republished by Ace as LEGACY), which I think was originally
published long before the first Telzey story.

------------------------------

Date:  5 Dec 1980 1711-PST
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF
Subject: HGttG

The British paperback edition of The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy
contains some small amount of material in neither the record/tape nor
the original radio program, e.g. the workman supervising demolition
of Arthur's house is, we discover, related to Attila the Hun. No true
hitchhiker can afford to overlook any source of such information.

Martin Feather

------------------------------

DP@MIT-ML 12/05/80 21:46:44 Re: HGG

  I have a set of the records. If any Boston area people would
like to listen, drop me a line.
				-jeff

------------------------------

Date:  5 December 1980 08:58 est
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Energy and Information

The revival of this topic has finally moved me to look up my reference
on the subject [Scientific American, Sept 1971, pp 179-188].  This
article ties information measures not to energy as such, but rather
to changes in entropy.  Any equivalent of an information transfer
can't be measured using energy units alone.  Some excerpts follow:

                     :::::::::::::::::::::::::::

     From Maxwell's time on many leading investigators pondered the
relation between observation and information on the one hand and the
second law of thermodynamics on the other. For example, in 1911 J.D.
Van der Waals speculated on the relation between entropy change and
the process of reasoning from cause to effect.  In 1929 Loe Szilard
commented on the intimate connection between entropy change and
information. In 1930 G.N. Lewis wrote "Gain in entropy means loss
of informatio; nothing more."
                                 ...

    The unit of information is determined by the choice of the
arbitrary scale factor K in Shannon's entropy formula.
                     { s(Q|X) = -K SUM(p*ln(p)) }
If K is made equal to 1/ln(2), then S is said to be measured in "bits"
of information. A common thermodynamic choice for K is kN, where N is
the number of molecules in the system considered and k is 1.38e-23
joule per degree Kelvin, Boltzmann's constant. With that choice, the
entropy of statistical mechanics is expressed in joules per degree.
    The simplest thermodynamic system to which we can apply Shannon's
equation is a single molecule that has an equal probability of being
in either of two states, for example, an elementary magnet.  In this
case, p=.5 for both states and thus S=+k ln(2). The removal of that
much uncertainty corresponds to one bit of information. Therefore, a
bit is equal to k ln(2), or approximately 1e-23 joule per degree K.
This is an important figure, the smallest thermodynamic entropy
change that can be associated with a measurement yielding one bit
of information.
                                 ...
     ... Brillouin was led to investigate the relation between
the entropy of an observation and the thermodynamic entropy, and
he concluded that one bit of information requires k ln(2) thermal
entropy units.  As Dennis Gabor once put it: "You cannot get
something for nothing, not even an observation."

  ::::::::::::::::::::::: End of quoted text :::::::::::::::::::::::

     The article also contains a table giving joules per bit for
various information recording techniques, ranging from keypunching
(5 joules per bit) to a television frame (.00002 joules per bit).
I wonder where the current computer memory devices fall. Perhaps I
can get some figures for a future issue.

------------------------------

Date:  5 DEC 1980 1622-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Final answer to question, "How many joules to send a bit?"

     The amount of energy needed to transmit a bit of information
when limited by thermal noise of temperature T is

                      E = kT ln 2  (Joules/bit)

This is derived from Shannon's initial work (1) on the capacity of
a communications channel in a lucid fashion by Pierce (2), although
it is not obvious that he was the first to derive it. This limit is
the same as the amount of energy needed to store or read a bit of
information in a computer, which Landauer derived (3) from entropy
considerations without the use of Shannon's theorems.
     Pierce's book is reasonably readable.  On page 192 he derives
the energy per bit formula (Eq. 10.6), and on page 200 he describes
a Maxwell Demon engine generating kT ln 2 of energy from a single
molecule and showing that the Demon had to use that amount of energy
to "read" the position of the molecule.  Then on page 177 Pierce
points out that one way of approaching this ideal signalling rate
is to concentrate the signal power in a single, short, powerful
pulse, and send this pulse in one of many possible time positions,
each of which represents a different symbol.  This is essentially
the concept behind the patent (4) which led me to ask the original
question.  My thanks to those who helped with their replies.

REFERENCES

1.  C. E. Shannon, "A Mathematical Theory of Communication", Bell
    System Tech. J., Vol. 27, No. 3, 379-423 and No. 4, 623-656
    (1948);  reprinted in:  C. E. Shannon and W. Weaver, "The
    Mathematical Theory of Communication", University of Illinois
    Press, Urbana, Illinois (1949).
2.  J. R. Pierce, "Symbols, Signals and Noise", Harper, NY (1961)
3.  R. Landauer, "Irreversibility and Heat Generation in the
    Computing Process," IBM J. Res. & Dev., Vol. 5, 183 (1961).
4.  R. L. Forward, "High Power Pulse Time Modulation
    Communication System with Explosive Power Amplifier Means",
    U.S. Patent 3,390,334 (25 June 1968).

------------------------------

Date: 2 December 1980 06:48-EST
From: Joe  Decker <JEDCSH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Carl Sagan RF [ also see SFL V2 #152 ]

     In order to clear up any  misconceptions  about  the  recent
attempted  "RF"  of  Carl Sagan at Caltech, we, the perpetrators,
would like to present the TRUE story.

     We  were  watching  the  "Saturn  and  the  Mind   of   Man"
presentation  on the campus TV, live from Beckman Auditorium, not
Baxter, and decided to liven up the event.  This was  mostly  due
to Carl Sagan's reaction to Phillip Morrison, in which Carl edged
away  from  Dr.   Morrison as far as possible without leaving his
chair, and  the  general  hysteria  this  induced  in  the  group
watching  the show.  We thought the show needed SOMETHING, but we
weren"t quite sure what.  The first  idea  of  quickly  streaking
across  the  stage  was  quickly  dismissed  as  embarrassing and
impractical.  Given the limited amount of time we had  (about  90
minutes), there was a limit to what could be achieved.  There was
certainly  no  time to coerce a "bikini clad female" into kissing
Carl, especially the one we  had  in  mind.   We  settled  for  a
"smallish"  model  of  Saturn  made  from  a  dead tetherball and
cardboard, appropriately painted, a small but accurate drawing of
Voyager (incidently, there was no intention of saying  BEEP  BEEP
BEEP...   in  its passage across the stage, although the idea had
been suggested.), and a "WE LOVE YOU CARL!" sign.  Upon  reaching
the  auditorium,  our  decoy ploy worked perfectly, (there was no
need for a "purloined" aud key, we already had several),  and  we
reached  the outside of the building by the back door.  Our knock
was quickly answered and the door was quickly shut in our face by
an usher, not by  4  CHiPs,  as  incorrectly  stated.   A  campus
security  guard wandered over and disposed of us.  We left the RF
paraphenalia in front of the auditorium where Carl  was  sure  to
see it and left, muttering under our breath.  We did not "quickly
turn  tail  and beat it into the night," rather we stayed outside
the auditorium for some time to see the reaction.

     After discovering that Jerry Brown was the reason our RF did
not succeed, we thanked him appropriately in tones not acceptable
over computer networks.

     We hope this clears up any misunderstanding of the events of
the Caltech / Carl Sagan RF.

     In addition, we do like COSMOS.

			       (signed) Joe Decker <JEDCSH@MC>
					Jon Leech <LEECH@MC>
					Keith Hughes <HUGHES@AI>
					Clare Waterson
					George Karas


P.S.  We still love you, Carl.

P.P.S.  In the last episode of COSMOS, one of the pieces of music
played was from EQUINOXE by Jean Michel Jarre, and I believe  the
song  was  Equinoxe Pt.  5, and it was played in one of the dying
sun sequences.  (Good Stuff) --JED

P.P.P.S.  If you have any good "RF" stories, please send them  to
us.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/06/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
discuss some theories about the plot of TESB.  People who are not
familiar with the movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1980 17:58:10-PST
From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley
Subject: light sabers

I'm still a few days behind in my reading of SF-LOVERS so excuse
anything that's already been said.

CONCERNING the use of light sabers and the lack of shields. Shields
actually did disappear in human history with the change from heavy
weapons (broadswords, maces, etc.) to lighter rapiers and sabers.
Having fought both "genteel" foil and saber, I can say that the best
shield against a fast easily manuevered weapon is your own weapon.
It is almost impossible to move a shield as fast as an opponent can
move his sword. I have few doubts that a shielded broadsword fighter
would be killed by a saber fighter (barring good armor that is).  I
believe this is in reply to KLH@MIT-AI.

Remember the old commercial, "Light Sabers, a part of living....."

				dave

------------------------------

PCR@MIT-AI 12/06/80 03:39:48  Re: Some TESB notes.

<1> In regards to Yoda's statement about "...there is another", the
    thought occurred to me that in both SW and TESB, at various times
    both Leia and Han make statements similar to "...I've got a bad
    feeling about this".  I take this as some indication of the
    presence of some undeveloped Force.
<2> In regards to the back of Vader's head, it seems that I read
    a story or two (in the distant past) where some reference was
    made to sorcerers who had tapped the source of "black" magic
    (the Dark side?).  These magicians used the magic to excess,
    and their physical bodies had become corrupted. Perhaps overuse
    of the Dark side of the Force causes physical changes in the
    user?
			...phil

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 DEC 1980 0915-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #158
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Sunday, 7 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - SF Comm/Comp Query & Legal Computers & Amber Arm &
       Farmer's VotH & Comedy/Parody SF & Uncommon SF & Busby,
     What Happens at a Con? - Galaticon Info & SF Events Calendar
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  5 Dec 1980 1545-PST
From: Steve Saunders <SAUNDERS at USC-ISIB>
Subject: pocket communicator/computer survey

Now that Lauren has brought it up, how about a survey of descriptions
of personal computer/communications devices in SF?  I'm interested in
descriptions from serious projections, too.  Of course, such things
are brushed over lightly in many stories, but there are some good
descriptions.

Please send entries directly to Saunders@USC-ISIB

As is the custom, I will collect references for a period of time and
submit the results to SF-Lovers.

Just to start things off, there's

   Imperial Earth               Clarke
   The Mote in God's Eye        Niven&Pournelle.
   Foundation                   Asimov
   The Age of the Pussyfoot     Pohl                 [Lauren]

I haven't read Pussyfoot yet, but of the other three Imperial Earth
has the most thorough description of how a full-scale HumanNet might
get used.  This is the kind of thing I am looking for.

Thanks in advance!

                Steve

------------------------------

Date:  4 Dec 1980 1504-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Comments from JAFFE

I have been asked to forward the following remarks to SF-L.  I will
let Saul know of any replies he garners.
        steve z.
                    ------------------------------

1. In regards to computers and law in SF, several stories come to
   mind off the top of our heads:  

   Varley:
      Picnic at Nearside, in his collection The Barbie Murders.
      The Phantom of Kansas, in Terry Carr's Best SF of the Year #6.
      note: in both these stories, a character named Fox discusses
            law with the central computer for Luna, a friendly, 
            talkative machine called CC.
                        
   Heinlein: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
      Mike, the computer runs everything on Luna and has good
      grasp of local and international law.

   Clarke: In 2001:A Space Odyssey, HAL has some knowledge of
      the law which he discusses in a scene with Dave.

   Nolan and Johnson: Logan's Run.
      The computer is judge, jury and executioner.

   Boucher: The Quest for St. Aquin.
      The robot donkey knows law.

   Gerrold: When Harlie Was One.
      Harlie quotes some law near the end of the book.

   Zelazny: Lord of Light. 
      A computer controls not only birth and death but
      reincarnation and karma.  

   Chalker: Well World series.
      In these books the computer controls the laws of the universe.

   D.F. Jones: Colossus, the Forbin Project.
      The computer hijacks the law.


2. Could somebody clarify or explain the reference to the hand
   in Zelazny's Amber series? [ see SFL V2 #150 -- RDD ]

3. Venus on the Half-Shell was released in paperback by Dell books
   after being serialized in Fantasy and Science Fiction.  F&SF
   has since run stories probably also by Farmer but by-lined by
   names that I think were characters in Venus on the Half-Shell.

4. With respect to pun books, several other SF works pop into mind.

   Niven and Gerrold: The Flying Sorcerors AKA the Mispelled Magician.
      Most of the names of the characters are take-offs on well-known
      SF personalities such as Elsin, the angry god of fire whose
      curse it is to strike you in the kneecap is Ellison.

   Asimov: Many of his stories hinge upon or end with particularly
      heinous puns.

   Briarton( Reginald Brentnor): Who can forget the series Through
      Time and Space with Ferdinand Feghoot?

        
5. Also with respect to rare SF books, has anybody read M. K.
   Joseph's The Hole in the Zero?  It is a very strange book
   which came out in paperback from Avon circa 1967 and which
   no one else on Earth seems to have read.

   While I am thinking about it, could we get up a campaign to
   nudge a publisher preferably Del-Rey to reprint The Garden
   of the Plynck? This book, which inspired Sturgeon to go into
   writing, was published only once by the Harvard U. press in
   1920.  The only extant copy seems to be a fragile edition
   kept under tight security at the main branch of the N.Y.
   Public Library.

   [ Whatever you do as individuals is fine. However it would
     be a very BAD mistake to mention or allude to SF-LOVERS
     in any type of campaign.                         --  RDD ]

                                       Saul Jaffe and Joe Zitt

------------------------------

Date:  3 Dec 1980 at 0134-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ BUSBY BUSINESS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    From: ROSSID at WHARTON-10 (David Rossien)
    Subject: Busby
    To:   hjjh at UTEXAS-11

    I note you utilized the pronoun "his".  Are you certain 
    that is the correct one?  I have no idea, but wouldn't be
    surprised to find he is a she... there is a certain savage
    streak to some of the books, along w/ the fact that J. Russ
    said she liked on (Rissa) which from what I know of Russ,
    means Busby is probably female...  but I defer to you for
    comment.
                -Dave

This is not the first time I've run across the suspicion expressed
above.  In fact, I thought so, myself.  In contrast with the typi-
cal known-male authors' handling of female protagonists, Busby's
fempro's are not merely competent, but distinctly ROUGH AND TOUGH!
They are indeed more like Joanna Russ' than anyone else's. But, to
give Russ the credit she is due, her liking for Rissa Kerguelen is
not dependent on the author being female, for I had it on the best
authority that Busby is indeed "he".

(In contrast with Russ, I've heard Marion Zimmer Bradley express
the opinion that Busby does a lousy job in depicting female
characters.)

Oh, reference works can err, of course.  (I recall somebody in
the biography section of Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY
LITERATURE who gleefully described having submitted various quite
different "life histories" to different publications.)  So, the
entry in Nicholls' SF ENCYCLOPEDIA, with "he" and mention of a
wife named Elinor, could be wrong, and even tho unlikely, the
pictures of a grey-white bearded "F.M. Busby" in LOCUS a few
months back c-o-u-l-d have been mis-captioned.

But, a couple years ago when I happened to mention my suspicion
about Busby to MZB, I expressed continuing doubts even after she
had told me Busby was male.  To which she retorted in her peremp-
tory fashion, "I ought to know!  I've been to bed with him!!!"

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1980 10:52 PST
From: Frisbie.EOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Galacticancelled

I talked to Craig Miller (L.A. in '84 hotel relations) about the
Galacticon cancellation and this is the story he gave me:

The Galacticon committee says that the hotel simply cancelled the
convention with no reason given (This is also what their flyers
say).

The hotel (Bonadventure (sp?)) claims the following, according
to Craig: The hotel required the committee to furnish two things:
   1) A liability insurance policy.  (I understand this is
      standard for almost any convention these days).
   2) A performance bond to cover the committee's contractual
      obligations, etc. (This was because the committee was new
      and did not have a proven "track record".  This bond is
      similar to an insurance policy and is often available
      from the same companies).

The committee missed at least two deadlines to supply these to the
hotel.  On Monday, the hotel asked for the name of the committee's
insurance company so the hotel could contact them directly and
confirm that the committee was insured.  The information was not
given to the hotel, so the hotel cancelled the convention and
attempted to notify the people with reservations of this fact.

NOTE: The above is based on my memory of my conversation with
      Craig and some of the details may not be exactly correct.

Alan Frisbie

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1980 10:07 PST
From: Brodie.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events

Here is the SF-Lovers event calendar.  If you have information
about any events you would like to see added to the calendar,
or are associated in some way with one of the listed events and
would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC.

                    ------------------------------

                  Calendar of Science Fiction Events
                        As of December 2, 1980

     December 5-7, 1980  (Tennessee)
KOOKA KHAN TOO. Quality Inn Parkway, Nashville, Tenn ($25.00 to
$30.00).  Cost: $5 advance, $6 door. Banquet $6-$8.  Khen Moore,
647 Devon Drive, Nashville, TN 37220.

     January 16-18, 1981  (Tennessee)
CHATTACON 6. PO Box 21173, Chattanooga, TN 37421.

     January 23-25, 1981  (New York)
LASTCON. GoH: Hal Clement; Fan GoH: Jan Howard Finder. Albany Ramada.
Cost: $9 till 12/25/80, $12 till 1/16/81, $15 after. Maria Bear,
216 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180.

     January 30-31, 1981  (Ohio)
OSU CON. Ohio State University. Julie Washington,
OSU Union Program Office, 1739 N. High Street, Columbus, OH 43210.

     February 6-8, 1981  (Florida)
OMNICON II. Guest: Kerry O'Quinn (Starlog).
PO Box 970308, Miami, FL 33197.

     February 12-16, 1981  (Southern California)
AQUACON. Disneyland Hotel, Anaheim, CA ($56 single).
PO Box 815, Brea, CA 92621.

     February 13-15, 1981  (Massachusetts)
BOSKONE XVIII. Pro GoH: Tanith Lee; Official Artist: Don Maitz;
science speaker TBA.  Sheraton-Boston ($57/single, $69/double).
Cost: $12 until 1 Jan 1981, then $15 to N.E.S.F.A., Box G, MIT
Branch P.O., Cambridge MA 02139. Films, program, seminars, art
show, hucksters room, filksinging, games, costume party, Glamor
and Sparkle.  Info on dealers' tables and art show will be
available soon; dealers' room will probably be larger than in
past years as we now have more of the hotel. Registration limit
of 3000. (We aren't happy about the room rates either, but there
isn't a usable hotel with significantly better rates.)
SFL liaison: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock).

     February 14, 1981  (Florida)
STONE HILL LAUNCH II.
Ann Morris, 1522 Lovers Lane, Riverview, FL 33569.

     February 14-16, 1981  (Northern California)
DUN DRA CON VI. Gaming. 386 Alcatraz Avenue, Oakland, CA 94618.

     February 27-March 1, 1981  (North Carolina)
STELLAR CON VI. University of North Carolina.
David Allen, Box 4-EUC, University of N.C., Greensboro, NC 27412.

     March 6-8, 1981  (Texas)
OWLCON II. Rice Program Council, PO Box 1892, Houston, TX 77001.

     March 6-8, 1981  (Wisconsin)
WISCON 5. SF3, Box 1624, Madison, WI 53701.

     April 3-5, 1981  (Kansas)
FOOL-CON IV. Confirmed guests: C. J. Cerryh, Lynn Abbey, Robert
Asprin.  Johnson City Community College, Kansas City, MO. Johnson
County Comunity College, Overland Park, KS 66210.

     July 10-12, 1981  (Missouri)
ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood;
Toastmaster: Charlie Grant. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO.
Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them
out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list
for soliciting contributions to the art show.  This was successful
at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying
to expand.  There will be more art show space and display panels
this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and
would welcome suggestions.
SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell).

     September 3-7, 1981  (Colorado)
DENVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L.
Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin. Cost: $35 till spring
1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO.  80211. (303) 433-9774.

     September 2-6, 1982  (Illinois)
CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention.  Pro GoH: A.
Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas.
Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL.  Cost: $20 till 12/31/80, $30 till
6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion.  PO Box A3120,
Chicago, IL 60690.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 DEC 1980 0527-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #159
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest       Monday, 8 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:
            SF Books - HGttG, SF Music - Cemetary Girls?,
            SF Plays - Rocky Horror PS & Film Questions,
  Time Travel - Paradoxes, TESB - When it began & Obi-wan's Sayings
----------------------------------------------------------------------

TLD@MIT-MC 12/07/80 08:42:37 Re: HGttG

A reliable source has informed me that National Public Radio has
purchased copies of the original radio programs and intends to
broadcast them starting this March.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 1980 1853-PST (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: New Wave SF

Currently popular in the New Wave rock world is an album by
"Barnes and Barnes" called "Voo Ba Ha".  While the entire album is
exceptionally bizarre and "high-tech", one cut in particular should
be of interest to SF-LOVERS readers.

This cut, entitled "Cemetery Girls" really caught my attention.  The
song is basically involved with necrophilia, but has some particularly
interesting lyrics.  Phrases like "you sent him to the cornfield",
"things are good, really good!", and "you're a bad man!  A BAD man!"
abound.  In fact, brief snatches of the song consist of dialogue not
spoken by the group, but apparently taken from somewhere else and
dubbed in over the music.

Well, by now you should have figured it out.  The song is based on
the classic SF story "It's a Good Life" by Jerome Bixby.  And the
"outside" dialogue was recorded directly off of "The Twilight Zone"
episode of the same name.  Yes, Billy Mumy is enshrined forever in
"Cemetery Girls".  (Where IS Billy Mumy you ask?  My sources tell
me he plays guitar for some punk group that mainly works out in the
Encino area (an L.A. suburb in the San Fernando Valley.)  Ah well,
better than Peter Noone (Remember him?  Remember "The Monkees"?).
Noone now is a waiter at a local restaurant called the "The Great
American Food and Beverage Company").  But I digress.

I thought it was definitely amusing to hear pieces of a Twilight Zone
in the midst of a New Wave song.  I wonder how many other people have
realized what they were listening to.... or where the idea for that
song had come from?

By the way, if you like the bizarre, the twisted, the insane, the
truly WARPED in music, I recommend "Voo Ba Ha" highly.  (Needless
to say, I love it.)

--Lauren--

P.S.  Did you hear the one about the necrophiliac who fulfilled
      his lifelong ambition by becoming coroner?  Ta ta.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date:  4 Dec 1980 1852-PST
From: Geoffrey C Mulligan (at The Pentagon) <GeoffM at RAND-AI>
Subject: The Rocky Horror Picture Show

   I just saw the RHPS \PLAY/ a couple of Tuesdays ago.  It was
excellent.  I have seen the movie a few times and the play was
much better in some respects.  The actors interacted well with
the audience and the music was fantastic, load and LIVE.  The
play was supposedly the original play from England. There were
a few songs in the play that weren't in the movie but on the
hole they were very much alike in their content.  It is well
worth seeing, if you have the chance.  One thing, don't plan
on bringing any paraphernalia to the show (no rice, no bread,
no water pistols, no newspapers).  This might have been just
rules for that particular theater.
                Geoff

Also...  Did anyone happen to see the TESB trading cards.  Has
anyone collected any of them or all of them.  Supposedly they
had information on them that wasn't brought out in the movie.

------------------------------

Date:  7 DEC 1980 0418-EST
From: APPLE at MIT-MC (James A. Cox)
Subject: Movie Making

     Someone said in yesterday's SFL that movie makers try to put the
action at the center of the screen so that if the picture ever gets
to TV and they cut off the edges to make it fit, it won't look too
bad. Well, up until a week or two ago, I hadn't even thought about
that problem.  Then, I was seeing "Casino Royale" up at Harvard (you
know, that small liberal- arts college up the river) and it was in
16 mm. I said to my friend that the titles sure did look funny, real
elongated. He told me that they have to make the picture smaller for
16 mm, and they usually cut the edges off, but of course for titles
they can't do that.  And now that I thought about it, I could see
that there were times that people were just right off-screen and
talking.  Now that I knew this, it bothered me.  Question: I don't
know anything about movies, but why would anyone make a movie filmed
with "ordinary" sized film and cut it down to 16mm?  Are 16 mm films
cheaper for college organizations to get?  What's the story?

                - Jim Cox

------------------------------

Date:  4 Dec 1980 1355-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: SW film format, scratchy prints

I can't answer Will Martin's questions about SW and TESB rerelease
but ...

Both films were shot in Vistavision, which is not a wider film format
(the strip is 35mm), but a wider frame format. The frame is "sideways"
on the film (more like the frame of a "full frame" 35mm still camera).
This means that the film moves horizontally through the camera and
projector, rather then vertically as in a "normal" camera.

The bad news about prints (or negs, or film in general) is that they
are very expensive to make (just a print from a neg) and they scratch
VERY easily.  Every time the print goes through a projector it picks
up some new scratches, and if you are picky (as Will must be) you can
spot them.  A week's run at a theater will beat a print to shit, and
its all down hill from there.

When we deliver a print, we tend to look at it ONCE out of such fears.
Of course, video disks don't have these problems.

        -Craig

------------------------------

Date:  4 December 1980 00:39 est
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS  at SAI-Prime)
Subject:  Free will

Free will as usually defined is a mid-size effect and is not
definable at either the microscopic or macroscopic levels
otherwise you are reduced to arguing that one's inability to
levitate a pumpkin is a refutation of the existence of free
will.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1980 20:18:05-PST
From: E.jeffc at Berkeley
Subject: Time travel

There is yet another possible method of time travel which was used
in a book, whose name I cannot remember.  This version takes time
travel to its logical conclusion when you take quantum mechanics
into account.

At any given point in time, there are several possible "futures".
Each of these futures has a certain probability attached to it. As
"time" progresses, one of these possible futures approaches 100%
probability, and thus becomes "reality". The concept of hyper-time
could be applied here and in this case is about the same as normal
time.

Naturally, things start getting complicated when people start
travelling in time.  Now, hyper-time no longer follows normal time.
In the book, our heros lives in the 20th century and is confronted
by time travellors from two possible futures: one in which an evil
woman runs a cruel dictatorship in a ruined world, and the other in
which everyone is happy and so on.  Both possibilities were made
possible by the invention of a device which I think had something
to do with energy, but I'm no longer sure.  The difference between
the two is when and by who the device was invented.

It turns out that in the time line of the evil person, there was a
plague which would have killed her if it were not for an injection.
One of the hero's, who lived in the 20th century and also happened
to have invented a time travelling ship, had stolen the vaccine
before it was injected, and thus the evil person would have died --
EXCEPT that because it was POSSIBLE for the vaccine to be restored,
she still lived. If the vaccine were destroyed, she would, of course,
have died as a child, thus making the world a better place.  There
were quite a few plot complications that explain why the vaccine was
not destroyed immediately, but you get the picture.

Now for the paradoxes. The main "time wars" battle was the time and
place where the two possible futures forked off. Neither of these
two futures were certainties, and yet it was possible for both of
them to go back to the past and attempt to influence events (and
the more "certain" an event was, the more energy it took to try to
change it.  In this case, the trigger was nothing more than a stone
lying on the ground which a child would pick up, thus setting into
action a chain of events which will years later lead the child to
invent the device.)  It was, of course, possible for someone to go
into a possible future, and, in doing so, increasing its probability
of occurance.  However, it was not possible for someone in a possible
future to go into another one, because they can't both exist at the
same time.  Thus, they had to fight over their existance in the past.

I think the book was called "the Legions of Time", but I am not
sure.  It had two novels in it and this was the second one.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Dec 1980 0644-EST
From: Doug Alan <G.Nessus at MIT-EECS>
Subject: E.JeffC's Version of Time Travel

     I think that this too cannot exist without paradox or
predetermination.  E.JeffC says, "At any given point in time,
there are several possible 'futures.' .... As 'time' progresses,
one of these possible futures aproaches 100% probability, and
thus becomes 'reality'."  This implies that there is some "real"
present -- that there is a distinct, single point on the normal-
time-line that is occuring at a particular moment in hyper-time.
At this point, the future is undetermined (if we assume free will)
and the past is determined.  If the past is not determined, then
this point cannot be the real present because it would only be a
possible present, which would make it a possible future for the
past.
     If a person goes back in time from the real present, then
he cannot change the past, or then the past would not have been
already determined, the future would be changed, and the real
present then could not have been the real present.  But if in
the past someone from the real present appeared, then in the
real present the person must go back, or the past will be
changed.  If he doesn't there is a paradox.  This theory will
only work if the time-traveller has no free will and must go
back.
     If we do not assume that there is a real present, then there
can be no real reality.  In this case, we would have a system of
alternate realities--parallel universes--very similar to Apple's
system.

                                --Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date:  6 Dec 1980 2329-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: subtle pattern

Saul Jaffe and Joe Zitt point out the "subtle pattern" in the
release dates for the SW nineths:

        SW 4 rleased May 21 1977
        SW 5 released May 21 1980

Hence it is obvious that the first three were released on May 21
in 1968, 1971, and 1974!

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/08/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It asks a
question about the sayings of Obi-wan in SW4 and SW5.  People who are
not familiar with these movies may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

MJL@MIT-MC 12/06/80 09:14:27 Re: Some TESB notes.

Didn't Obi-wan ALSO say, "I've got a bad feeling about this."

I recall 3 examples of the phrase used:
   1) Solo when they spot the Death Star.
      (Chewie hit the auxiliary power!) (SW4)
   2) Luke in the garbage dump when it starts compressing. (SW4)
   3) Leia when they look outside the ship for mynocks [sp?] (SW5)

Any others? I'm SURE I remember Obi-Wan saying it SOMEWHERE.

{Matt}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 DEC 1980 1007-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #160
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 9 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 160

Today's Topics:
               SF Books - Davy, SF Radio - SW4 & HGttG,
      SF Movies - SF History (Trailer) Festival & Film Questions
                   & When TESB began & Flash Gordon
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 Dec 1980 1816-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: DAVY

Sometime ago I asked about Pangborn's work, and about "Davy" in
particular.  I have since then found two copies (one in a used book
store).  After reading it I agree with whichever reviewer (I think
it was Spider Robinson) who said it was the best post-holocaust ever
written.  I gave the second copy to a friend as a present, I think
I regret it.  She has read it at least once since then (only a week
ago), any idea how to handle a Pangborn fanatic?  "Davy" is being
quoted back at me.

In case anyone is interested in getting "Davy" re-issued again,
Ballantine seems to have the rights.  The latest edition I have
heard of is the 1976 Ballantine edition, copies of which must
still be at warehouses somewhere.  I say this because I found
one on a bookstore's shelves within the last two weeks.

        steve z.

[ Again a reminder, if you choose to write to Ballantine please
  do not mention SF-LOVERS.                             --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 08 DEC 1980 1218-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: NPR schedules

  The info I have is that HGttG starts in \May/; March will see
the beginning of a simulcast (i.e., instead of playing taped copies
stations in this country will relay (after the appropriate frequency
shift) satellite signals sent out by the BBC at the same time as its
local broadcasts) of a 13-part radioplay of SW4, with Mark Hamill as
Luke (the other principles will be played by substitutes).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1980 2341-PST (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Reminder -- History of SF marathon

This is a reminder to Southern California SF-LOVERS that the NUART
will be having their almost 5 hour SF marathon this coming Thursday,
starting at 7 PM.  The program is billed as "The History of Science
Fiction and Horror films as shown by film previews and trailers".
Should be a good one.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date:  8 December 1980 1227-EST (Monday)
From: Mike.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E)
Subject:  frame formats

I saw part of the movie Semi Tough on TV the other night.  During a
few scenes, every minute or so I would see the boom mic at the top
of the screen.  It was almost as if they expected the top of the
screen to be cut off so they weren't worried about it.

Question: Do they film in one strange format, then crop one way for
theatre and one way for TV?

                        -mike fryd

------------------------------

Date:  8 December 1980 21:41 est
From:  Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Cinema and Television

     First of all, I believe that the "squeezing" you noticed during
the titles has nothing to do with the size of the film (i.e. whether
16, 35 or 70MM) but instead with trying to show a Cinemascope (or any
slightly different named equivalent) film on a screen that is too
narrow.
     It isn't the width of the film that causes trouble, but the
ratio of height to width of the PROJECTED image. Cinemascope is much
wider than it is high, and television (and many theaters) don't have
the equipment to deal with this.
                        - Mike Greenwald

Also, as far as I know to get a 16MM copy of a 35MM film, you don't
simply cut off half the film....

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1980 0513-PST (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: film and disks

This will be a gross simplification, but here it goes anyway.

The "standard" theatrical film size for many years was 35mm.  A
35mm projector is a very bulky instrument, and for that reason
(and plain old COST), 16mm is the standard for "small" showings
-- schools, homes, military bases, etc.  A 35mm film costs MUCH
more to duplicate than a 16mm, and is comparatively difficult to
handle.

Various techniques (such as Cinemascope, etc.) were developed
to squeeze more out of a 35mm format.  All of these formats were
distinguished by a changed picture aspect ratio -- the screen
stayed much the same in height but got much wider. Special lenses
were used to squeeze more information onto the film in the first
place, and similar lenses on the projectors stretched things back
out again. This technique can be applied to 16mm film as well, but
never was used too frequently with 16 (though I know a collector
who regularly gets prints in various stretched 16mm formats, and
has special lenses to play them back).

More recently, large theatres have been going to 70mm formats.
Virtually all these films were shot on some sort of 35mm and
then enlarged to 70... until recently there were few 70mm
cameras around for the original shooting.  And talk about a
BIG camera... Star Trek was one of the first to try shooting
completely in 70, instead of doing a 35 blowup.

I guess I should mention Cinerama as well.  The original Cinerama
films ("The Seven Wonders of the World", "How the West was Won",
etc.) were shot with three separate cameras, and projected with
three separate projectors.  At the theatres, you could clearly
see the demarcation lines between the three images, though there
was a slight overlap to make the effect non-obvious.  Later on,
Cinerama dropped the three camera system and went to a stretched
format.  Todd-AO is another system that uses a stretched format.
(By the way, the original Cinerama system involved three 35mm
cameras.)

As for credits and field cutoffs, well things ARE a little messy.
Obviously if you are going to make a film for the large screen, you
often want to use the WHOLE screen.  When the film is transferred
to video, a decision needs to be made as to how to handle the aspect
ratio problem.  At the transfer houses and such, you can frequently
see films that have been tranferred initially by placing a black (or
green) bar at the top (or the top and bottom) of the screen, and
just reducing the size of the main movie image.  This preserves the
aspect ratio of the original film and allows the whole image to be
shown, with the penality being a smaller active picture size.  This
is generally considered unacceptable commercially, so the transfer
houses try to concentrate on the "action" in the film whenever
possible. That means that the telecines used to transfer the film
are "pointed" at the action to the exclusion of "quiet" parts of
the picture.

Usually this effect is not too noticeable, but there are exceptions.
Many transfer houses set up punched tapes for sophisticated telecine
units that instruct them where in the image to center the video.
Whenever possible, they try to change positions at scene cuts, but
sometimes it is necessary to shift position during a particular cut
(like when the speaker moves from one end of the screen to the other).
At these times, the telecine is programmed to very smoothly pan across
the image.  This pan has a very "artificial" look to it once you know
what you are looking for, and can almost always be recognized.

When "How the West Was Won" ran on television, you could still clearly
see the demarcations between the three images, and I got quite a kick
out of watching the demarcations lines pop back and forth as they
tried to keep the action within the field of view.

While it is true that some films are shot with TV in mind from the
start, many still are not.  And indeed, the one place where the "pick
the best action" technique does not work is with credits.  There are
three ways to handle this situation, two of which are frequently used.
The first way is to just squeeze the whole image down so the credits
fit on the screen.  This results in skinny people too, but at least
you can read the credits.  The other technique is to put borders at
the top and bottom as mentioned above, but only during the credit
sequences.  Usually the transfer houses put little squiggles or
something in the borders so that dim-witted viewers don't think
their TV's height control needs adjusting.  The third system I
have only seen used once.  I saw one film where the telecine kept
panning back and forth so that you could read the entire width of
the screen.  It would start at the left, then pan right -- then
the credits would change, it would pan left, etc.  Bizarre.

Anyway, that's the quick story.  The various elements of film
technology from 8mm to Pananvision to Todd-AO could (and do)
fill books.  Hope this answers some questions though.

--Lauren--

P.S. About videodisks.  Yeah, in THEORY the laser-scanned versions
     will not degrade (the needle-in-groove ones will, however).
     But the quality of the laser videodisks has been generally
     atrocious. When you see these things demo'd, you can bet that
     they went through 10 or 15 disks to find one that was not
     defective in some way.  They are having major quality control
     problems with the disk manufacturing. That is one reason the
     price for disks has gone up substantially over the super-low
     prices once quoted.  There is such an emphasis on squeezing
     more time onto a given surface that there is little wonder
     the quality degrades.  As far as I am concerned, most of the
     home videotape formats are worthless for quality recording.
     I keep important stuff on broadcast U-MATIC (3/4") tape,
     myself.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date:  8 Dec 1980 (Monday) 0938-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Subtle pattern again

Then SW 0 must have been released on May 21, 1965.  Hm...  must have
missed it.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/09/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last messages in this digest.  They
review the new movie Flash Gordon.  People who are not familiar with
this movie may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  9 Dec 1980 0213-EST
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Flash Gordon

FG just opened here and the intrepid Rutgers hackers braved the crowds
to get the real scoop.  Some crowd.  The late monday night showing
played to <10 people.  Unlike some of the critical bombs amongst the
less-favored SF flicks noted in these annals, however, I don't think
I was cheated at the box office. I went expecting to see comics, and
comics is what I got.
  I've seen pieces of the old Flash Gordon movies and also Flesh
Gordon, the racy version full of high-school style dirty jokes.  The
new FG was the equivalent of either of the other two with the frosting
shifted to a different flavor: the slightly better fx make up for the
lack of the dirty jokes.  The old FG had a beautiful period-piece-ness
to it impossible to recapture fully (my favorite old SF movie scene
has the captive Flash shoveling radium like coal into a blazing atomic
furnace) but outside of the Queen music the new FG could easily have
been made in the 30's -- the effects, though gaudy, are mostly colored
clouds and costumes; indeed, you will note a number of steals from
Wizard of Oz, up to and including melting witch.
   All in all, pure comix/period piece.  But I thought reasonably
decent with those stipulations.

--JoSH

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 12/08/80 20:01:23

     I just saw 'Flash Gordon' (the movie).  I liked it.  It is, as
you might have guessed from the adds, more of a fantasy than a science
fiction story -- there are a few internal inconsistancies. . . .  But
even the 'silliest' scene (wherin Flash Gordon, quarterback for the
NY Jets, rushes the whole imperial guard clutching a green football,
well, you get the idea.) is done so that it does not really insult
one's intelligence.

     The villians are evil, the heroes are courageous, the heroines
are beautiful, and the rocket ships are finned.  And the special
effects are special, and the music is inspiring.

     And any film with a wedding scene wherein space ships trail
signs reading:
                'All Beings Are Ordered To Make Merry'
                        'Under Pain of Death'
can't be ALL bad.

     For the record, parents might find it hard to explain several of
the lines/scenes/sound effects to their kids, but not t-h-a-t hard.
Sort of like Keith Laumer's stories, but with more paletable women.

                        Ah well,
                        hackerjack

P.S.  Since somebody else will inflict this if I don't, the sequel
      (you didn't think Ming REALLY died, did you?) will probably
      be called 'Flash Back'.  Have a Nice Day (In Joke)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 DEC 1980 0651-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #161
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 10 Dec 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:
SF Books - Uncommon SF & Shatterday & HGttG, SF Radio - HGttG on WETA,
    SF Movies - Flash Gordon & First Color Film? & Film Questions,
Shuttle Landing, For those who liked "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenix"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

MARG@MIT-AI 12/09/80 21:21:00 Re: uncommon? sf

Has anyone read Gerald Kersh (for instance NIGHTSHADE AND DAMNATIONS).
All shorts, good stuff.

------------------------------

LEOR@MIT-MC 12/10/80 03:39:05 Re: Shatterday arrives

Houghton Mifflin finally delivered a receptacle for the Shatterday
limited edition book plate Ellison signed for me at Noreascon: the
book itself. I definitely approached the book with a pro-Ellison
prejudice, but even normalizing for that leaves me in awe of this
guy. Half way through, every story so far has captivated me--even
the funny ones have their punch. The book is 332 pp., 16 stories
including "Jefty is Five", "Count the Clock That Tells the Time",
"All the Lies That Are My Life", and the story MIT-ers will remember
Harlan read during his lecture a few years back, "The Man Who Was
Heavily Into Revenge". (Note: Harlan said he wrote that one "just
for us", but I've been told the very same story was read at an
earlier lecture at some other Univ. earlier.)  The quality of the
physical volume is startling, compared to the cardboard-like nature
of "Dragon's Egg" (binding only, Bob!  The book was great!) and
"Beyond the Blue Even Horizon", the other hardcovers I've recently
purchased. Shatterday's binding is close to Gregg Press durability,
paper heavy, and there are nice frills like tinted intro-pages to
each story. There is an interesting continuity to the intro's this
time, revolving around the phrase "Writers take tours in other
people's lives".

Cripes. Doesn't the Lennon ordeal sound like something out
of "The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart of the World" ?
             aaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

        -leor

------------------------------

Date:  9 December 1980 1852-EST (Tuesday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  HGttG

Personally, I found the book very enjoyable, however, I was expecting
comedy (British) and knew it had been radio...sigh.
                                Doug

P.S.  If you liked HGttG, you will probably also like
      'Another Fine Myth...',
      ...but then again, maybe not...

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1980 1035-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: HGttG and Dr. Who info

For Washington DC-area people, I called our friendly programming
people from WETA about Hitchhikers' Guide and Dr. Who to see what
their plans are for airing them. Dr. Who is not planned; I had the
feeling that the person (I never got her name) I talked to was not
real interested in the topic.  More luck with HGttG: I talked with
Martin Goldsmith, the Program Director, who had a cassette of HGttG.
He was not thinking of using it in the near future, but I get the
feeling that my nudging him might have changed his mind.  If other
DC area people were to call (998-2790) (not mentioning SFL, of
course) over the next few weeks, I think we might see an effect.
        Mike

------------------------------

Date:  9 Dec 1980 (Tuesday) 1219-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Non-Spoiling Flash Gordon Review

I went into Flash with low expectations, (I needed \something/ to
take my mind off what the dentist had done), and was not at all
disappointed.  A friend who expected more pure SF was a bit let
down, but admitted that it was good escape (and was even caught
repeating the jokes afterwords).

The film is pure camp. The villains are hissably villainous, the
good guys are generally cheerable, and the action (when not too 
outrageous) is straight out of an old swashbuckler.  The special
effects are nothing to write home about, but mesh well with the
scenery and action.  Mings right hand man (?) is one of the best
soft-spoken, low-key meanies I've seen in many moons.

A suggestion yelled from the audience: Imagine that one of the
backlit buttons in the openning scene was labeled 'Ronald Reagan'.

-- Dave Smith

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 1980 0522-EST
From: MJL at MIT-DMS (Matthew Jody Lecin)
Subject: Forbidden Planet

One of our favorites, naturally.

Query: is it the FIRST major SF film in color?
       If not, what came before?
                                        {Matt}

[ Forbidden Planet (MGM 1956) is noteworthy for several reasons,
  but it is not the first SF film produced in color.  At least
  the following 6 color SF films preceeded it:

         20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (Disney 1954)
         This Island Earth (Universal 1954)
         Riders to the Stars (Ivan Tors/United Artists 1954)
         War of the Worlds (Paramount 1953)
         Invaders from Mars (NPC/20th Century-Fox 1953)
         When Worlds Collide (Paramount 1951)

  I believe George Pal's When Worlds Collide is the first, major
  studio, SF film produced in color, but I may be in error.
                                                        --  RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 09 DEC 1980 1434-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: formats

  I'm a bit surprised by your statement that most 70-mm films
until recently were magnified from 35-mm originals.  As far as I
know, there is no economic advantage to this, since there aren't
any theaters with \only/ 70-mm projectors (such a theater would
die quickly in the current market); I would also expect a net
loss of image quality.  Were there actually theaters so large
that with less advanced equipment they couldn't get enough light
through the 35-mm film?  (I know that the Sack Charles, Boston's
largest theater, shows mostly 35-mm and seems to do quite well in
that format.) Perhaps you meant that older wide-screen films were
shot in Vistavision or a similar kluge, in order to have a large
enough image on the original film?  2001 may have been the last
film to be done in a Cinerama-type format; I don't know if the
print I saw in late 1967 was actually coming from 3 projectors
but it was shown on the characteristic near-semicircular (160-
degree?) screen.  On the other hand, a recent newspaper ad
described the reassembling of a 1927 multi-projector film,
NAPOLEON, which will reopen at Radio City in late January.
(Most of the film is actually in normal format; only the
last 18 minutes, presumably at Waterloo, use the full width
of the screen.)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1980 0017-PST (Wednesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: formats

I will admit the 35mm blowup business is sorta bizarre, but it IS
true.  I can't remember exactly, but I think it has something to do
with 35mm vs. 70mm resolutions at different points in the production
sequence.  I really don't recall the details.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 08 DEC 1980 1302-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: film formats

  The reasons for current film formats (and incompatibilities) are
similar to the reasons for audio cassettes running at a flaky speed
like 1.875"/sec, namely history.
  The earliest movie formats were based on an aspect ratio (image
width divided by image height) of 1 1/3; this is still standard for
8 and 16 mm film and for video. The current standard a.r. for 35mm
is roughly 1.5; I \think/ that this does not involve the use of
anamorphic lenses (i.e., lenses that alter the aspect ratio).
  It could be argued that there are specific reasons having to do
with the mechanics of seeing for expanding the picture only hori-
zontally, but there's a more obvious economic reason: given the
structure of the typical hall it's much easier to widen the screen
that it is to increase the height. A typical proscenium (the square
archway between the stage and the audience) can have an a.r. as high
as 3.  There is the further factor that humans, being without wings,
are basically two-dimensional creatures; thus a great spectacle can
be made by increasing only the width of the screen, and this was what
happened starting about 30 years ago. So that filming and projection
equipment wouldn't have to be rebuilt, the width alterations were
produced by the above-mentioned anamorphic lenses, in standard
proportions. These lenses are now a standard part of the equipment
of any 35mm projector; one of the typical stunts in prep schools
which both own such projectors and have a darkroom (i.e., most of
them) is to mount an anamorphic lens on a 35mm still camera or
developer, producing distorted images like those of funhouse
mirrors.
  What does that have to do with 16mm formats?  Well, colleges aren't
exactly a huge market; there's only so much that can be demanded for
rental of a 16mm film. (Example: TIME AFTER TIME went recently for
$125). This means that reductions to 16mm are less likely to concern
the filmmakers (although this may change with the widespread legiti-
mate sale of videotapes of movies). 16mm can be made in Cinemascope
(a.r. ca 2), just like 35, but a lot of small groups don't think to
buy the extra lens and many have only portable screens which are
designed for the low a.r. (There's also a lot of simple incompetence
in the small-format field; the abovementioned TAT print, which I saw
at Philcon, included a few minutes of an anamorphic print, and at the
Drekcon in Boston 4 1/2 years ago the anamorphic lens couldn't focus
the image at the projector-to-screen distance in the room, so they
showed the print with an ordinary lens, treating us to the spectacle
of the four spokes of the space station lengthening and shortening
as it turned.) There are even some Cinemascope 16 prints which don't
require the lens; instead, the wide image is printed, undistorted, at
less than the usual height on the film and the remaining area of the
standard frame (as defined by projector specs) is blacked out. (I saw
DEMON SEED in this format at Balticon a few years ago and walked out
after a few minutes because the image was incredibly dim and grainy.)
  In response to your specific final question, the ease and cost
of getting a given film in a given format depends on a \lot/ of
variables.  (It would be my guess, for instance, that LSC, the
movie group at MIT, would have to pay about the same (for 16 vs
35) since they show so many new films which can't be gotten from
a small local distributor.)  For a typical school or college, 35mm
has \big/ problems: the equipment is hellaciously expensive either
to rent or to purchase, it usually has to be fixed in place because
of power and ventilation requirements (thus reducing its versatility
compared to 16mm projectors, which are almost all portable) and in
several states (such as Massachusetts) there are not only laws making
it even more expensive to set up a 35 (or an arc 16 for large halls,
such as LSC uses when they can't get a 35mm print) but requiring that
there be a licensed projectionist on site when the machine is running.
At your typical prep school this is worthwhile as a social control (to
keep the inmates on campus on Saturday night); for most colleges the
hassle just isn't worth it.
  If you have any further questions, I expect that Mike Dornbrook will
be seeing this within a few days and have some more specific answers.

------------------------------

Date: 09 Dec 1980 1548-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at SU-AI>
Subject: Spaceship watching 

        Getting into Edwards AFB for the Space Shuttle Landing

     The Public Affairs Office at Edwards will be mailing out
"Shuttle passes" that allow the bearer to enter the gate with
ONE vehicle. That vehicle may contain any number of people.
Passes may be obtained by writing a letter to:

                NASA Dryden Flight Research Center
                Public Affairs Office
                P.O. Box 273
                Edwards, CA  93523

     If you are planning to charter a bus, you should tell them how
many buses will be in your party and the total number of people in
your letter.  They will get the appropriate pass(es) for you and
provide you with a Person to Contact when you arrive.

     Pass distribution will begin in February, and passes will be
sent out in the order that requests are received.  Approximately
30,000 passes are available (30,000 x 4 people per car is a LOT
of people!!!) and as of Dec 9 there were only 200 requests. They
don't care as to corporate or academic affiliation for the most
part.

     My partially reliable sources tell me that it will be HOT on
the tarmac so plan accordingly.

     Better information will follow as I get it.

-- Tom

------------------------------

RMS@MIT-AI 12/07/80 02:55:54
Re: How Superman and Lois Lane can mate safely

Superman has to fabricate a condom out of his invulnerable baby
costume, and tie it on with straps made from more of the same.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 DEC 1980 0703-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #162
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 11 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:
                     SF Music - Body in Question,
     SF Books - SF Crime & Herbert & HGttG and Another Fine Myth,
SF Movies - Flesh Gordon & Film Questions, Real Life Computer Capers,
         For those who liked "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenix"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1980 1027-EST
From: KERN at RUTGERS
Subject: MUSIC QUERY - THE BODY IN QUESTION.

Does anybody know what music is used in THE BODY IN QUESTION? I'm
especially curious about the music that sounds like a synthesizer
simulating a human chorus.

-kbk@r

------------------------------

Date:  8 Dec 1980 1805-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Law

On the question of law in SF, again I forgot to check but I remember
the existence of a couple books on crime in SF.  And the Gordon
Dickson "Spatial Delivery" and "Space Paw".  The aliens here had an
interesting way of interpreting the law, obeyed the letter precisely.
Actually they applied the same attitude to everything.  I can't
remember what they were called though.

        steve z.

[ 80:12:10 - The aliens I'm thinking of are the Dilbians.  -- SJZ ]

------------------------------

Date: 12/09/80 1042-EDT
From: GNC at LL
Subject: New Dune Book

One of my roommates said he saw an ad for another installment of the
Dune saga.  I know Herbert has a new book out, but its a mass market
edition and contains little text.  Anyone know anything about this ?

[ 1. Excerpts from Book 4 in the Dune series appear in the current
     issue of Playboy.
  2. Herbert has a "new" illustrated TRADE paperback out entitled
     DIRECT DESCENT.  It contains two short stories, one of which
     was first published in 1954. Copiously illustrated with very,
     very little text for the price.                        -- RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 10 DEC 1980 1355-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: HGttG and ANOTHER FINE MYTH

  I disagree; the two represent very different strains of humor
--- at the least, as far apart as they could get and still be called
"fannish".  One of the reasons I disliked chunks of AFM is that the
humor was barely removed from a genre I would call "American Sitcom".

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 12/10/80 10:04:33 Re: Flesh Gordon

     Since Flash Gordon came out recently, and someone has mentioned
Flesh Gordon in the list, I would like to say a few words about this
movie.  I saw it several years ago when it first came out.  It was
then rated X but I don't know if it was cut or they ratings have
changed or what, but I know it was rereleased recently (probably
to help peak excitement for flash gordon) and I think it was rated
R (could be wrong on this).
     Anyway, Flesh Gordon was without a doubt one of the funniest
movies I have ever seen.  If you wish to fully enjoy it, get together
a group of people, get into a wacky mood, and go.  You have to see
the film in the correct light to enjoy it.  The sex, I thought,
was not really objectionable at all.  It was so RIDICULOUS!!!! (no
sensuality at all).  This is sex in the great tradition of National
Lampoon and has to be viewed as such.  Also, the use of four letter
expletives lends a certain air of realism to the emergency scenes.
My favorite character by far is the gargoyle that is brought to
life by the villian toward the end of the film.  HYSTERICAL!
     Anyway, I know that the film might not be for everyone,
(don't take the kids), but I recommend it to anyone who sees humor
in complete ridiculousness and folly.  This one is RECOMMENDED. 
See it if you get the chance.
        Greg Faust

------------------------------

RWK@MIT-MC 12/10/80 08:57:13 Re: Print size and scratches

Well, since dirt particles and such remain the same size, if you
double the film's linear size, you only have to blow it up half
as much when you project it.  Your scratches will be 1/2 the size.

Also, you will get less grain contribution from the print.  If the
negative was of very fine grain (perhaps a more expensive film than
for the several hundred prints), then you may well be eliminating
MOST of the grain by going to a 70mm print over a 35mm print.

I'm just reasoning from first principles, I don't actually know
their reasons for things.

------------------------------

Date: 10 December 1980 09:43-EST
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  formats

The last true Cinerama film was "How the West Was Won".  The film
that followed it was shot in UltraPanavision 70, a variable aspect
ratio for the curved screen on 70mm film, called "It's A Mad, Mad,
Mad, Mad World". It was the last film meant for the Cinerama screen.
Other films which were shot in Panavision (similar to CinemaScope
in the resulting aspect ratio, but using 70mm film) and were post-
processed into UltraPanavision 70 format for those theatres with
Cinerama screens, but were not meant for those screens as "Cinerama"
films. "2001" was post-processed into an Ultra Panavision version,
and played well in the old Cinerama theatres first, but it was not
a Cinerama film. Strickly speaking, IAMMMMW was not a true Cinerama
film and I think the public knew they were no longer getting the
"real thing".

For those of you who have never seen a true Cinerama film, and such
a theatre near you revives "The Windjammer", by all means, go see it.
The first 10-15 minutes of the film is shown in regular 35mm format
and then the screen explodes into the full Cinerama format when the
first Windjammer is shown. (I doubt this will ever happen as most, if
not all such theatres converted to 70mm equipment to show IAMMMMW.)

--Frank

------------------------------

Date: 03 DEC 1980 1242-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: hacking

  For all of you who dismiss stories of "virus" programs, people
taking over the net, etc., as fiction with bad science, there is
a story in today (December 3)'s Boston GLOBE (morning edition)
describing the holding for ransom of DePaul University's admini-
strative computer by a couple of teenagers who used a home computer
to break the security code, then reinstructed the computer not to
accept a new code from the owners; they then shut down the system
during registration and sent in a message threatening to do it
again unless they were given a (unspecified) valuable computer
program.  The stunt is estimated to have cost DePaul $22,000 in
downtime and reprogramming.
  This does \not/ sound like a hoax; they named the kids and officer
who arrested them. (The story is attributed to a Chicago \Tribune/
writer named Crimmins.)

   A factor which amused me is that the story spoke of a three-digit
access code. I figure there's a pretty high probability of error in
such a story (it seems to have been written for "human interest", not
for a science section) but it strikes me that a university with that
bad a security setup deserves what it gets --- especially since there
are likely to be confidential student records (for which they are
maybe legally and certainly morally responsible) online.
  The idea of the code being that simple also recalls the furor a
couple of years ago over a new encoding standard for private concerns
to use for confidential material.  The code sequence was apparently
just short enough that a moby government computer could crack it by
exhaustion, which brought a number of complaints that the addition
of another byte or so would have been trivial to do and would have
made the code effectively uncrackable.  There were claims of severe
pressure from the National Security Agency both to keep the code
short and not to argue about or discuss it in public.  I haven't
seen anything about the fuss in the last year and a half (except a
sideways mention of how such codes would also provide authentication
of personal messages (in DISCOVERY, I think)); does anyone else know
what (if any) resolution there was?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1980 0438-PST
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: super-mating  

Haven't you read Niven?  Your solution still doesn't do anything
about the loss of muscle control at the moment of ejaculation:
Lois would still be crushed in his arms and "gutted like a trout"
(I believe that was Niven's description).  And of course, using a
supercondom defeats (one of) the main purposes, namely guaranteeing
that the race of Kryptonians on earth does not die out.

        -- Don.

P.S.: What brought this on, anyway?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1980 0517-PST (Wednesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Super Prophylactics

Golly, I wonder if K-Y would try get an endorsement from the happy
couple?

--Lauren--

P.S.  This discussion is degrading fast!

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 10 DEC 1980 1350-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Woman of Kleenex

   That's only how they can \screw/ safely, not how they can \mate/!
The question in Niven's essay was how to \breed/ Superman; Niven
began with the assumption that one of the things DC doesn't show
is Superman's "periodic trips to Kandor to get his ashes hauled".
   There's also the fact that his costume is knit or woven, rather
than poured like the material for a condom; a sock isn't a reliable
contraceptive even for ordinary humans.

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 12/10/80 18:27:18 Re: 'super' condom

     Alas, Superman's cape and baby clothes are made out of an
infinitely strong but very stretchable material.
     All Clark has to do is buy a RedSun lamp, of course, since
he loses his super-powers in the light of a red sun.
     Which is obviously why we have red light districts.

                                Jack

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 DEC 1980 0642-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #163
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 12 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - HGttG and Another Fine Myth & Budrys Xmas Column,
   SF Movies - Flesh Gordon & Film Questions & Digital Techniques,
 What Happens at a Con? - SF Events Calendar, Ref to "Hand in Amber"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 December 1980 1420-EST (Thursday)
From: The Twilight Zone <Doug.Philips at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  Re: HGttG and Another Fine Myth

I did not say that the two books (AFM and HGttG) were the same type of
humor...only that if you liked one of them you might like the other.
                        -doug

------------------------------

Date: 09 Dec 1980 0753-PST
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: Algis Budrys column (reformatted for readability)

                         By Algis Budrys
         (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

     It's that wonderful time of the year when nobody has the
leisure to read books, but you have to reach decisions on what
books to buy for your literate friends.  You wander through the
stores, opening and closing, skimming the blurbs, trying to
recall snatches of reviews, attempting to parse out how much of
what you've heard was meretricious.  In fact, what you're going
through is what I go through all year 'round.  So, trust me
. . . I know what you're feeling. 
     For your graphics-oriented friends, Putnam's has started a
new line of eye-popping art books called Perigee Books, within
which occurs something called the Paper Tiger series.  These are
beautifully produced 8 three-eighths inches x 11 three-eighths
inches paperbacks of 96 full-color pages each, each $10.95, and
worth it.  There are four of them so far: "Solar Wind" displays
the SF art talent of Peter Jones, an unusually various master of
technique whose broad range of subjects extends from crisp, hard-
edged space battle to the classic blue-skinned ape carrying off
the green but otherwise clearly nubile maiden.
     Philip Castle's "Airflow" is something else: impeccably
rendered airbrush fantasies in which voluptuous mechanical
Valkyries vie for airspace with F-14s, Marilyn Monroe is
nipped daintily in the teeth of a grille fit for two Hudson
Hornets back to back, and Dolly Parton is not to be believed.
     Then there's "Rick Griffin," by Rick Griffin, one of the
masters of druggie pop, memorable for surfer art, album covers
and underground comics.  And finally there's "3-D Eye," by
Michael English.
     "3-D Eye" contains what I think is the most draftsmanly, most
assertive airbrush work I've ever seen.  English delights in the
bravura performance-crumpled cigarette packages, floating ketchup
bottles, a discarded candy wrapper windborne across a stone slab.
His highlights, particularly on liquid, are super-glossy; just
this side of cartoony, and sometimes closer than that.  He's in
the business of riveting the onlooker's attention.  If you want
one book to stop its recipient cold during the package-unwrapping,
look no farther.
     For your word-oriented friends, there's "The Ghosts of the
Heaviside Layer and Other Fantasms," a new collection of stories
by Lord Dunsany from Owlswick Press ($20).  Illustrated by Tim
Kirk and introduced by Darrell Schweitzer, it is a new compilation
of short work and two plays by this classic fantasist.  To give it
is to flatter your friend's taste.
     For stocking stuffers, Del Rey has just released, at $2.50 each,
the paired paperbacks "Gateway" and "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon,"
by Frederik Pohl.  "Gateway" of course won every available award; the
other is its sequel.  Both are hardcore contemporary science fiction
by an uncommonly good writer and dazzling thinker.
     At $6.95, Ace's trade paperback "Direct Descent" had better
be reserved for diehard Frank Herbert fans.  It's two stories - one
of them from a 1954 Astounding Science Fiction magazine - and both
are classically "modern" SF as that term was then understood.  But
even with Garcia illustrations (which seem to feature Paul Newman
in the leading role), this is a purchase to weigh carefully.
     For an SF sampler, there's "The Great Science Fiction Series,"
(Harper & Row, $16.95), edited by Frederik Pohl, the prolific and
ingenious Martin Harry Greenberg, and the indefatigable Joseph
Olander.  It's a terrific idea for an anthology - one story each
from 20 different story series, ranging across the board from
Brain Aldiss' "Hothouse Planet" on through James Blish's "Cities
in Flight" and "Pantropy" series, through Ferdinand Feghoot and
Gavagan's Bar, Simak's "City," McCaffrey's dragons, Cordwainer
Smith, Fritz Leiber, Larry Niven - on and on; something for
every taste, every mood, every level of involvement in the
field.  This one goes in my basic library, for its own sake
and as a species of index.  For your friend who's wondering
if this SF thing might be of interest, it's perfect.
     Finally, there's "Dream Makers" (Berkley, $2.75), for those so
wrapped up in this field that they actually care what the authors
look like and how they live.  It's a collection of interviews by
Charles Platt with 29 contemporary SF writers.  (Well, one is a
reconstruction on Cyril Kornbluth, who is indeed still contemporary
in many of our minds, and who, if he had lived, would now be one of
the grand characters of the field).
     Platt, a figure of considerable consequence in the English SF
establishment but a long-time American resident, simply laid out a
course across the country here and zig-zagged from house to house,
calling on figures as diverse as Kurt Vonnegut, Samuel R. DeLany,
Philip Jose Farmer and Harlan Ellison.  These are by no means
complete biographies; they're house calls, from each of which
Platt has taken away a literal snapshot and a little vignette.
The results range from the engaging to the jaw-dropping.
     We really are all crazy, of course.  And I do not have dead
washing machines and coils of old rope in my basement; they're coils
of heavy-duty electrical extension wire, and the washing machines are
not dead.  See, what I do, is I put file cards with characters on them
in one machine, load another one with plot complications, a third with
settings, a fourth with dialogue, a fifth with narration, and then I
start them all going and re-ink my typewriter ribbon with the mixed
effluent.  We all do that - I was just dumb enough to let Platt catch
me at it.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1980 11:46 PST
From: Betsey at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: FLESH GORDON

I, too, highly recommend flEsh Gordon as an excursion into the
ridiculous.  I've seen both the X and R rated versions.  They are
essentially the same, tho the r is minus some of the more "explicit"
sex scenes. (not surprising) It's a good thing to see when you want
mindless, humorous entertainment. ( hmm -- sounds very like reviews
of the new release of flAsh gordon!)

<Betsey> summers @ Parc-Maxc2

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 12/11/80 10:02:09 Re: Flesh Gordon

As an addendum to my last message, I just noticed that Flesh Gordon
is being shown this Saturday, 12/13, at 7:00 and 9:30 at MIT's Kresge
auditorium.  If the crowd in Kresge is anything like the usual crowd
in 26-100 (and I have no reason to think that it won't be), then this
should be an excellent opportunity to see this film.
        Greg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1980 1101-PST
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Film formats

 Speaking of wide screens, the only worthwhile "industrial" pavillion
at Disneyland is the Bell Telephone exhibit: A 360 degree theater.
There are rails to lean against rather than chairs, the show is short,
but flashy.  The one I saw featured a swoop through the Grand Canyon
in a small plane, and believe me, when the plane banked into a turn, I
got DIZZY!  If you can stand the wholesome atmosphere, or are dragged
there against your will, be sure not to miss it.
(P.S.  It is also free)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1980 at 1842-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^ HERESY!  BLASPHEMY!!  Off with his head!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^

It takes at least as much guts as a tauntaun to dare suggest that
LAUREN could be guilty of a factual error in matters cinematic.
But if what he said in the DEC 09 issue of SF-L--

         "Star \Trek/ was one of the first to try shooting
          completely in 70, instead of doing a 35 blowup."

isn't eggregiously erroneous, I'll turn all my nine Darth Vader
buttons to the wall!

------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 12/12/80 04:20:24 Re: Movie query

This seems like an appropriate question for a group of SF/computer
people:

     How many bits do you need to digitize a film?

After all, one of the big wins with digital storage/transmission/etc
is that the signal can be regenerated easily over long stretches of
time or distance.  This would, for example, go far to solving the
problem of old, wornout films that simply fall apart; ditto dirt,
scratches, etc.

But I really have no idea what sort of resolution is required, not
being familiar with the sort of grain on film negatives/prints.  Or
perhaps the right approach is to determine the resolving power of
human eyes confronted with typical movie screens.

     I would expect that at some point in the future, all this lens-
switching and frame-clipping nonsense will be replaced by completely
general on-the-fly digital conversion methods. 10 years? 15? Someday,
if we live that long.  In fact, why bother with film? Just pop in a
giga-PROM cube...

     (By the way, I believe Lucasfilms plans to digitize most of their
shots in order to use computerized film editing techniques, although
this only determines the order in which the REAL negatives are strung
together, rather than producing the actual film.  I don't remember the
exact # of bits/frame, but it's huge).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1980 13:47 PST
From: Brodie.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events

I just received information on Westercon 34, in Sacramento.
Westercon is the big West Coast convention.  Since registration
rates go up January 1, I am passing the dope now.

If you have information about any events you would like to see added
to the calendar, or are associated in some way with one of the listed
events and would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at
PARC-MAXC.

     July 2-5, 1981 (California)
WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Cornfield. Red Lion
Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8
addl person.  Party wing. Cost: $15 till 12/31/80, $20 till 6/14/81,
$25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/12/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It
explains KLH's reference to the "artificial hand in Zelazny's Amber"
in [SFL V2 #150].  People who are not familiar with the Amber series
may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:  8 Dec 1980 1805-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Amber (spoiler on amber)

The reference to hand in the Corwin of Amber series.  I assume that
Saul doesn't mean the book title "Hand of Oberon" that one is obvious
(after several years of non-concious deliberation).  In that case we
must then be typing about Benedict's mechanical arm (I guess), at
least I think Benedict is the one with the mechanical arm (I forgot
to look everything up over the weekend).  Corwin stole the arm for
Benedict.  As I recall the arm was stolen from Benedict's "shadow"
in Tir-na Nog'th a reflection of Amber.  As I further recall, it
turned out that Tir-na Nog'th was actually a future version of Amber,
thus the arm wound up being stolen from Benedict at a future time
and givento Benedict.  It was never really built, it only exists in
a timeloop.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 DEC 1980 1052-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #164
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 13 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 164

Today's Topics:
           LA HGttG Event, SF Books - HGttG & Budrys Quiz,
           SF Movies - Digital Techniques & Film Questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 1500-PST
From: g.eldre at SU-SCORE (Tim Eldredge)
Subject: HHGttG Presentation

Sorry for the short notice, but PENSFA will be playing both of the
HHGttG tapes (off the air recording) on Dec. 13 at 8:00 PM in Palo
Alto.  Call Doug Faunt at 494-2920 for the location and details.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 1013-EST
From: Steve Lionel via <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

The comments from many of you regarding "The Hitchhiker's Guide
to the Galaxy" has helped me to clarify my own opinion of the
book. In my original note, I complained that the book read "like
a disconnected set of children's bedtime stories".  That didn't
really sum up my feelings, however, so I'd like to go into a bit
more detail.

First of all, I thought that many of the situations were hilarious.
What I object to is the way that they are strung together.  Comments
from others make it plain that the book is essentially a straight
transcription from the radio show.  This is a dangerous course to
take since, unless the writer is very skilled, the book will just
not have the effect that the original medium did. I recall purchasing
the book based on the movie "Young Frankenstein".  I loved the movie,
and was eager to read the book.  Unfortunately, the writer was a hack
who simply copied the screenplay, trying unsuccessfully to put into
words the numerous sight gags that made the movie what it was.  This
is apparently what has happened to THGttH.

My coworker Alyson, who had heard two of the shows, and had liked
them a lot, agreed with me that the book is unreadable by itself.
Responses from others in SFL land leads me to a proposed theorem:
If you are familiar with the radio show or records, then reading
the book allows you to fill in the details in your mind, since you
know what is SUPPOSED to be there.  People like me who have never
heard the show, who don't have friends extolling the virtues, find
that the book is simply poorly written.  For example, the book has
footnotes that span two or more pages that explain in detail some-
thing totally irrelevant to the story as it stands.  What is apparent
is that the radio show had this information presented in some useful
way, but that the writer was unable to include it smoothly into the
story.

I'll rephrase my request: Is there anyone, who hasn't heard the
series, who read the book and found it enjoyable?  CSVAX.arnold
suggested that I was looking for too much from the book; I can
only say that I was looking for a fun book to read.  Alyson will
be supplying me with some tapes of the show, so I can hear what
it is really like.  Then I will be better able to tell what it
was that bothered me.  I suppose I should mention that I do like
a lot of Monty Python, though I prefer the Firesign Theatre.

On the subject of distribution in the US, TLD@MIT-MC says that NPR
will be broadcasting the series next spring.  However, the book
jacket does say "soon to be a television spectacle on both sides
of the Atlantic Ocean".  Does anyone know more about the TV show?

                        Steve

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 10:53 PST
From: Brodie.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Algis Budrys column (SFL V2 #163)

     You wander through the stores, opening and closing, skimming
     the blurbs, trying to recall snatches of reviews, attempting
     to parse out how much of what you've heard was meretricious.

Quiz for the day: what does "meretricious" mean? (Hint: it does NOT
mean "having merit.")

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 0447-PST (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-ATS (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: digitizing films and 70mm

There are massive efforts now in progress by several firms (including
LucasFilm, Abel, and III I THINK...) to produce digital printers for
commercial film use.  Building a high resolution digital film printer
is no small task.  Somewhere I recall hearing the number of pixels
required for a 70mm image with no visible degradation; it was not
really as many as I had expected, but I do not recall the figure.

One thing is for sure, it will take A LOT of bits.  The problem is,
even if you have the whole movie digitized, how are you going to
show it?  Digital projection technology is not terribly advanced
at this time, and certainly is nowhere near the quality of a big
70mm projector in a modern theater!  Obviously though, they would
be IDEAL for production and post-production work.

                    ------------------------------

TO:  HJJH

"No 9000 series computer has ever made a mistake or distorted data..."

I have never claimed this distinction, but this is a bit confused. I
distinctly remember meetings, discussions at private screenings, etc.
where various members of the production staff were discussing the
massive problems they were having with the new 70mm ... but that this
was to be expected since nobody had ever tried do an entire film on
70 before.  Seems to me I heard Gene R. and Bob Wise blabbing about
something to that effect once.

-- As an aside, I recall asking Wise once whether he was a big Trek
fan.  He claimed that he had never really watched the show at all,
and that he had been spending alot of time up in an office watching
tapes of old episodes that Gene had provided so he could get the
"atmosphere" of the show.  By the way, while I did not have that
much contact with him, I got the impression that Wise was a really
nice fellow.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

RUSSEL@MIT-AI 12/12/80 08:03:24

It is pretty tough to find a screening of "The Windjammer" these days
that supports all of the special format effects.  On the other hand,
you can see the same kind of explosive shift in scale at the National
Air and Space Museum's theatre.  They were showing two movies when I
was last there (September); one of which (title unremembered, sorry)
also starts out in what appears to be standard 35mm style showing a
balloon launching (hot air).  Just after liftoff, the viewpoint shifts
to above the balloon, looking down and rotating; at the same time the
screen expands by a factor of 10 or so...  certified to give vertigo.
(The name, I just remembered, is "To Fly".)  If you're in DC, you'd
be silly to miss the museum -- even sillier to miss the movies.
Spectacular!  (They also looked to be great prints -- no scratches
or dirt; an achievement in a theatre that shows the same movies
forever...)

-- Dan

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 2354-EST
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Setting the Record Straight

     Although I'm fairly certain that this discussion is out of the
realm of Science Fiction, I can't stand seeing partial truths and
misinformation spread about, so I'll have to set the record straight
(Chip Hitchcock was right about that.  By the way, I apologize for
answering several days worth of SF-L at once, but my mail file was
scrambled by a system crash.)  After seven years as an officer of
LSC (the MIT film group), I've picked up a lot of film information.

     Star Wars may have been shot in VistaVision, but the release
prints are standard (they don't run through the projector sideways).
Properly maintained (and cleaned!) projectors can run a print 100
times without noticable wear, and hundreds more with only minor
scratches.

     To answer the question about cost of 16mm films - No, they are
usually no cheaper to rent than 35mm prints, however there are many
older films for which 35mm prints are not available.  There are many
reasons why 16mm films are so prevalent at college film series.  For
one thing, few colleges have 35mm projection facilities.  There are
many regulations concerning 35mm which date back to the days when
prints were nitrate and flammable/explosive (therefore you generally
must have licensed projectionists (in most places that also means
union projectionists)).  There are also twice as many reel changes
to miss (MIT people are familiar with this problem).  But a good 35mm
print is far superior to 16mm.  The film image area is about 4 times
as great.  The sound track is significantly wider and moves about 2.5
times as fast, so the sound quality is much better.  Also, 35mm films
are available with Dolby Stereo soundtracks and 4-Track magnetic
soundtracks.

     To set the record straight on aspect ratios - A little history
is in order.  The original silent 35mm films had an aspect ratio of
1.33:1 (width to height).  When the sound track was added, the image
area was decreased to 1.16:1, which was generally cropped top and
bottom to the historical 1.33:1 (i.e. not all of the frame was used).
Some of the great old films for which replacement 35mm prints are
still being made, including Gone with the Wind, Casablanca, Wizard
of Oz, etc., were made in the 1.33:1 format.  When 16mm and tele-
vision were introduced, they used the then-standard film aspect
ratio of 1.33:1.  Wider image formats became popular in the early
1950's.  1.66:1 became standard.  It was achieved by cropping yet
more off the top and bottom of the frame, resulting in a slightly
dimmer, grainier projected image.  Cinemascope was introduced in
the early 50's by 20th Century Fox.  It was a clever idea - the
entire 35mm frame is used and lenses which do a 2 to 1 horizontal
compression are used when filming and a corresponding 2 to 1 hori-
zontal expansion is done when projecting.  Thus the 1.16:1 frame
becomes a 2.33:1 image on the screen.  Since the whole frame is
used, more light can be transmitted and the relative grain size
is smaller.  [The generic term for Cinemascope is anamorphic.
Cinemascope is a brand name of 20th Century Fox.  The original
Cinemascope films were done with 4-Track magnetic sound, by far
the best 35mm sound ever.  The quality is excellent because the
film is moving at 18 inches per second.  Unfortunately, this
process has mostly died due to expense and problems with stray
magnetic fields destroying the recordings on the prints.]  Other
companies came out with similar anamorphic processes.  Cinemascope
lenses are big, complex, and fairly expensive.  When 16mm cinema-
scope was introduced, the technology of optics was at a stage where
it was considered too difficult to design the lens necessary to
expand 1.33:1 16mm frames to the 2.33:1 image standard set by 35mm.
Instead, another 2:1 horizontal expansion was used, yielding a 16mm
cinemascope image of 2.66:1, which means that the top and bottom
of the original 35mm image get cropped.  This means that with any
modern film some part of the image area is cropped in 16mm prints.

     To bore you yet further and hopefully lay this subject to rest,
I will finish up with a few more tidbits:

     70 mm - Almost all recent 70mm films were shot in 35mm.  The
quality would be higher if shooting were done in 70mm, but the cost
is very high (Lawrence of Arabia was shot in 70mm in the desert.
The cameras were huge and had to be air conditioned.  There were
infinite problems with dust.)  It does make sense to blow up from
35mm originals to 70mm release prints.  The film quality of the
master prints is much higher than that of release prints so there
is some advantage with grain size.  However the major reasons are
brightness and sound.  Large theaters are often at the light flux
limit, if they tried putting any more light through the film it
would buckle too much and the emulsion would degrade.  Also, 70mm
film has room for 6 magnetic tracks, and the film moves 25% faster
than 35mm, so the sound is tremendous! (LSC has been dreaming of
installing 70mm for years, but the equipment won't fit in any of
our projection booths.)
     Cinerama - The original Cinerama process was ridiculous.
Running three projectors simultaneously leads to bizarre problems
- any missing footage in one print has to be compensated for in
the others. The Cinerama name was later attached to an anamorphic
version of 70mm (I may be wrong, but I think that 2001 was done
this way.)
     1.85:1 aspect ratio - The modern standard aspect ratio for
"flat" (i.e. not anamorphic) 35mm is 1.85:1.  This means that for
most films 40% of the 35mm frame is not used.  Most theaters do
not have the lenses, projector aperture plates, or screen masking
to show flat films other than 1.85:1, so when they show an old
1.33:1 classic, it gets cropped.  Now you know why all the heads
are cut off.

     Once again, sorry for the length of this discussion.

                                Mike Dornbrook 

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 DEC 1980 0638-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #165
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 14 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 165

Today's Topics:
                    SF Art - Picture/Poster Query,
SF Books - Who is Balfour? & Zelazny Collection & HGttG & Budrys Quiz,
     SF Movies - Film Questions & SF History (Trailer) Festival,
     Real Life Computer Capers, Query - Does MITSFS still exist?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 12/14/80 02:10:19

     What is a good picture to paint on a wall?

     My dorm has a blank bulliten board, about the size of a door,
that we want to paint/poster with a fantasy theme.  So has anybody
seen a good painting lately?  I guess we are looking for either a
sexy lady (with optional hero) or a dramatic landscape.  The picture
must be in portrait format, however, 'cause that's the way the board
is nailed to the wall.

     In other words -- what is your favorite sf/fantasy drawing/
painting/picture, and why?

     If there is any sort of response to this question, I'll be sure
to tabulate the results and return them to SF-lovers.

                        Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Pete Seissler@MIT-MC (Sent by PS@MIT-MC) 12/13/80 17:15:06

Is anyone familiar with the works of Brad Balfour.  He has suppposedly
written some stuff for OMNI, but has also published on his own.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 0938-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: new Zelazny book

"The Last Defender of Camelot" is not really a new Zelazny book,
but is a collection of short stories and novellettes from the very
beginning of his career til now.  I didn't much care for the title
story (Merlin, not Lancelot was always my favorite Arthurian char-
acter), but they're all worth reading unless you have them in other
collections.  Zelazny likes to put his off-hand heroes in situations
that are the stuff of legend, and this gets out of hand cases like
"Damnation Alley" where the hero is basically a motorcycle thug
(aside: everybody, but everybody smokes a lot in his books.  Is
he himself a chain smoker?), but usually it's just to let you know
that he doesn't take this stuff too seriously.  He does take it
seriously in "He Who Shapes", the original from which the novel
"The Dream Master" was derived, and the best story in the book.
But then, I'm a sucker for erudition; other people might find
the story pretentious.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1980 0929-PST
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIB
Subject: Good book, better footnotes

Part of the  enjoyment of  listening to  the HHGttG  derives from  the
audio footnotes  -  in  fact, it's  a  pity  that there  are  so  many
intervening minutes (pages) of story that explain in detail  something
totally irrelevant to these footnotes...

------------------------------

Date: 13 DEC 1980 1524-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: HGttG, again

  Well, \I/ liked the book and have never heard the tapes (except
for ~5 minutes from episodes beyond the book) --- but then, I've
been told my imagination is entirely too vivid for my own good.
I also rather liked the "footnotes" (actually, I think they were
printed as parenthetical remarks); the dramatic aside is such a
marvelously hammy device if well-done.
  Speaking of theatrical conventions, any of you in San Francisco
are urged to see FOOTLIGHT FRENZY, sponsored by the American
Conservatory Theater at the Marine (?), near Union Square.  Not
really SF or fantasy, but incredibly funny in a lunatic fashion.

------------------------------

Date: 13 DEC 1980 1527-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: meretricious

  Come on!  Anyone who's had O. Henry shoved down hir throat in high
school should remember that one without a dictionary; it means tawdry,
especially flashy-looking but worthless.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1980 2031-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE-2
Subject: NEW FILM TECHNIQUES?

Somewhere along the line I thought I read something about a new way
of filming that entails either speeding up the camera or slowing it
down.  I believe it is speeding it up.  The result is more of a three
dimensional feeling than standard techniques.  There would have to be
new projectors built etc.  Does anyone know of this?  I will try and
search some of my old mags for info.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 0504-PST (Friday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-ATS (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: trailers

I went out and saw the "History of SF and Horror via Trailers" show
last night... all 5 hours of it.  It was excellent.  I had seen only
about .1% of the trailers before.  They ran from Bela's "Dracula" to
TESB.  Alot of really obscure ones too.  There were even trailers
for "The Robot Monster" and "PLAN NINE FROM OUTER SPACE"!  This guy
really did his homework, and really covered the entire genre well,
even including some little known works like "Thunderbirds are GO",
"Vampire Lovers", and "Werewolves on Wheels" (the latter is about a
gang of Hell's Angel types who are werewolves, of course.)

There were obviously a number of films missing, but damned few that
I could think of offhand, at least relatively. He DID miss one of my
favorite obscure films: "Murder by Television", done in the 30's by
Lugosi.  I'll bet that NOBODY out there has ever seen this one other
than me.  It involves an early spinning disk type television system
which killed the people who went "on camera" (under Bela's control
of course).

I have forgotten the name of the guy who put the trailer show together
(he was there and rapped to the audience a bit before the film and at
the intermission), but he apparently shows up at alot of Cons, so if
you hear of some guy with a 5 hour trailer show, go see it.

--Lauren--

P.S.  If you ever want to see an interesting group of people, try
      go to an event like this in the L.A. area.

--LW--

------------------------------

TANG@MIT-AI 12/11/80 14:44:56

     The encoding standard in question was the 64bit NBS Data
Encryption Algorithm.  (I work as a computer aid for NBS, but
that's no guarantee I know what I'm talking about.)

     Supposedly, one could, for $100 zillion dollars, build a 'sooper'
computer that could decode any encrypted message in about a day.  Now
when I heard this I got all excited and ran into the office of my
boss' boss' boss and asked him about it.

     He pointed out that, if one was worried about securety, one could
run the message through the encoder 'n' times, to give it 64*n bits of
encryption.  That seemed reasonable to me, as I haven't got the math
background to prove/disprove it.

     And remember that the NBS DES was designed to give reasonable
amounts of protection to very large ammounts of data, so it had to
be FAST, rather than SECURE.  One time (bit) pads are the ultimate
in security, but require both the sender and the receiver to have
the pads before a message can be sent. . . .

     If you want to break security on a time sharing system, do
systat to find out who's logged in, then try to log in as them, using
a) null passwords, b) all 1&2 letter combinations, c) common female
first names, d) english words.  Several years ago, someone used the
word dictionary, the encryption algorithm, and the encrypted password
file to break 70% of the accounts on a Unix system.

     And one Chicago youth watched the police officer's demonstration
of the police departments computer, went home to his teletype (this
is an old story) and put his teachers on the most wanted list. *Sigh*

				Jack

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1980 17:58:10-PST
From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley

When I was at MIT I used to be a member of MITSFS.  I seem to recall
the ability to become a life time member by paying some large amount
of money (i.e. $100, which when you're still a starving student is a
lot of money).  Since I end up at MIT for two or three weeks a year I
was wondering if such still exists?

				dave

[ For those that don't know MITSFS = MIT Science Fiction Society.
  Their library is the "world's largest open stack SF collection."
  It still exists.                                          -- RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 07 DEC 1980 1137-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: MITSFS memberships

  The MITSFS has elected to scale its annual membership fee according
to the price of books (i.e., 2x the cost of an upscale paperback).
This gives renewable fees now ranging from $4.50 for one year to $16
for 4 years.
  MITSFS offers two species of life memberships, both of which require
the approval of the Skinner.  (The president's only chores are to
appoint the Skinner and take all the glory; the Skinner does all the
work. Of course, president and Skinner are usually one and the same,
but there have been exceptions.) There is the traditional inheritable
lifetime membership @ $1000, including a plated membership card and
(allegedly) a full-length nude photograph of the Skinner, clothed
in glory and wielding the gavel (a wrench suitable for opening fire
hydrants) (no, you don't \have/ to accept the photograph).  One of
these was recently sold.  There is also a non-inheritable lifetime
membership, without any of the glitter but still good until you are
ruled permanently dead; this costs $100, and we've sold several of
them.  Approval of the Skinner is usually nominal; the problem is
just that in a group of 400+ members there turn up a few who we'd
just as soon not renew.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 DEC 1980 0615-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #166
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 15 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 166

Today's Topics:
 SF Books - The Patchwork Girl & Here's the Plot! What's the Title?,
 Real Life Computer Capers, SF Movies - Film Questions, SFL ID Badge
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 December 1980 2145-EST (Sunday)
From: R.Kamesh <Kamesh.Ramakrishna at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  The Patchwork Girl

I just read  this book  by Niven;  it looks  new (first  printing
April 1980), and features Gil the ARM.  Standard Niven with  some
new psychic hand  abilities.  (Would you  believe searching in  a
hologram like dowsing over a  map).  Also, another laser  murder,
however nothing so creative as the one where the light originated
in a time-retarded field.

One thing he never explains -  why are lunar ("lunie") courts  so
quick to mete out justice?  He provides some kind of  explanation
for both  Earth  and  Belter  customs, both  here  and  in  other
stories.  Aside from quick remarks about the lunies being between
Earth and the Belt in their approach there is no explanation  for
the conduct of the particular trial in the story.  Is there  some
story elsewhere that I missed?

Another confusing point are lunar sexual and marital customs  His
hero gets a bit  confused, apparently; so  did I.  My  confusion,
unfortunately, did not terminate in bed.

An unrelated issue: when I first came to this country, I remember
paperbacks of this quality (gummed  binding likely to fall  apart
after the first reading,  mediocre printing quality) being  about
$0.95 or  so.  That  was '74.   This book,  an ACE  "Mass  market
edition" was $2.50, which implies that inflation has been 150% in
6 years.  Seems  a bit excessive  as I can't  think of any  other
consumer item that has gone up  by that much.  Has the  economics
of the book industry  changed more drastically  than that of  the
rest of the country?  (Not at all rhetorical, if anybody has some
information, I would like to know it.)

Kamesh

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 (Monday) 0126-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Please identify this story! (Short story)

  If anyone out there can identify the following story (plot
and author), I'd be much obliged.  I seem to recall reading
it sometime between 2 and 5 years ago, if that helps place
it any...

  Scene: The home planet (I believe) of the "Galactic Empire",
     a somewhat repressive imperialism.  This planet is the only
     one with anything approaching freedom, as they let crazy
     people run around the streets.
  Plot: Our hero (we'll call him John) is a member of the Imperial
     Police or whatever).  He's finally wangled an appointment
     to the home planet, apparently a prestigous position.  He
     wanders around, and
        (1) sees workmen digging up the street (for no apparent
            reason), exposing a sewer pipe with both fresh water
            and sewage running in it, separated by some mystical
            means...
        (2) he also meets and falls in love with a citizen, let's
            call her Jane.
     In any case, it seems Jane's uncle is missing, he is crazy
     even by local standards.  Pages go by, and John decides
     to join Jane's secret organization... first he must "pass
     a test" proving he's crazy, something about performing 5
     crazinesses.  He passes, and it is revealed to one and all
     that the crazies are all the brilliant scientists, they
     *really* are running the Empire secretly, and they have
     recruited him.  The end thought was if they were thought
     crazy by the empire and they in turn ran the empire, what
     of people they believed crazy, such as Jane's uncle?

------------------------------

Date: 14 December 1980 2327-EST (Sunday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: Encription

On the NBS (aka IBM) DES algorithm: I have yet to see
anything on whether DES composed with DES is closed.  If
it is, then running it though "n" times doesn't give one
any more protection.

        -Lee

------------------------------

Date: 14 December 1980 11:16-EST
From: Frank J. Wancho <FJW at MIT-MC>
Subject:  NEW FILM TECHNIQUES?

Well, there was TODDAO, developed for "Around the World in 80 Days",
as I recall.  One of its features was filming and projecting at
120 fps instead of the normal 90 fps.  The idea was to smooth the
jitteriness of panned shots and people moving across the view in
a stationary shot...

------------------------------

Date: 14 December 1980 2327-EST (Sunday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject:  New Film Techniques

In responce to DAUL's note: the idea of speeding up film to
increase the illusion of reality is not new.  In the old days,
silent films ran at 16 fps (frames per second) because it was
felt that this was fast enough for the mind to fuse adjacent
images and create the illusion of motion.  Sound films run
at 24 fps because the sound strip must run by the head so
fast. One might think if 16 fps was good enough, 24 ought
to be perfect.  Unfortuately, this is not true.  Scenes that
have a lot of light still flicker badly.  (for example, the
beginning of Superman) But even in the normal case, the film
only moves fast enough to produce a concious sense of motion.
The mind is not completely fooled.  To increase the illusion,
one can crank up the frame rate and the number of times a
single frame is exposed.  Normally, each frame is exposed
twice.  Various systems have tried to increase both these
numbers.  For example, at the Air & Space Building of the
Smithsonian, the movie "To Fly" is shown at (I believe) 48
fps and 3 exposures per frame.  (The system is called IMAX)
The projection speed is partly why the film appears so
intense.  I have heard Douglas Trumbull say that he wanted
to put out movies at 64 fps and four epf.  He said that he
was going to test it around the LA area but I haven't heard
anything since then (~ 3 yrs ago).  Clearly, any conversion
to this sort of system will cost.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1980 2302-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds (at III via Rand)  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: New film technology

Two questions came up just recently about new filmmaking
technology, I've got one answer and one "stonewall".

To Daul (@OFFICE-2)'s query about a new system involving
higher frame rates, I bet he is thinking of "Super 70" a
new (experimental?)  70mm format which runs at 60 frames-
per-second (as opposed to 24 for normal film or 30 for NTSC
video).  From Nth hand reports I hear that the sharpness
and (related) lack of motion-blur/stobing/time-aliasing
is spectacular.  Just don't be in the projection booth
when that baby breaks!  But our Creative Director (Richard
Taylor) says that the image is SO real and sharp that you
can't get away with any of the usual "tricks", eg: an actor
usually made up to look better on camera, on Super-70 looks
like a person with make-up smeared all over their face.

About a year and a half ago Doug Trumbull said he was going
to be involved with the first film shot in Super-70, but I've
not heard anything since.

To Lauren's comments and questions about digital film printers,
since it is supposed to "burn before reading" stuff, I can't
talk about it, except to say "yep" to everything Lauren said
(does that count as a leak?)

        -Craig

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1980 1627-EST
From: Alyson L. Abramowitz via <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: The problem with atsigns

Apparently the "@" was used as an identifying symbol at Loscon
the other week and at Westercon last year.  However, no one has
bothered to mention one problem with having an atsign in one's
"name": namely, not all of us have one.

I suppose not all of you may be aware that SFL has a significant
distribution outside of the ARPAnet.  For example, here at DEC
we distribute it across a 60+ computer network which encompasses
multi-sites at many different physical locations.  While most,
if not all, of the people getting SFL at DEC know about the
ARPAnet, to respond to SFL people use our own internal DECnet
and mail systems.  While ARPA has atsigns, we have colons.  By
asking if SFL users have an atsign in their name or creating
a button with an atsign, you are excluding readers, and often
active participants, of SFL who don't happen to be directly on
the ARPAnet.

Now I, personally, happen to have an ARPAnet account, but
it doesn't seem reasonable to me to have everyone getting our
distributions on the ARPAnet.  So the use of the atsign doesn't
seem very fair to me. At least here at DEC we've tried very hard
to not make it a problem to get SFL material 'second hand'. We've
not always succeeded (I think I've gotten a fair idea of how Roger
Duffey must feel sometimes -- maintaining a SFL mailing list is
a lot of work!) but the system has slowly been refined.  Please
don't treat us as step-children.

                alyson l. abramowitz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 DEC 1980 0651-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #167
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 16 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 167

Today's Topics:
SF Books - Rissa & Wizard & Plot/Title Query/Responses & PB Inflation,
           SF Movies - Horrible SF Movies & Film Questions,
            Real Life Computer Capers, MITSFS Corrections
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 (Monday) 2006-EDT
From: ROSSID at WHARTON-10 (David Rossien)

I once asked about a couple of books which I was thinking of buying.
I didn't get to many interesting responses, but I have finished
reading Rissa Kegurlan (sp?) and liked it (as alluded to previously,
the protagonist is a tough free-spirited woman who has escaped from
"Total Welfare" (e.g. slavery) to lead an Underground fight against
her enslavers.  I am about half through "Beyond the Blue Event
Horizon", now in paperback, and I am pretty happy with it thus far.
I am still interested in knowyng whether Varley's "Wizard" is any
good?  Takers anyone?
                        -Dave

------------------------------

RMS@MIT-AI 12/15/80 05:39:35

Can anyone tell me where to find the Telzey Amberdon story in
which her mind is completely taken over by a villain, and she
can't do anything except what he wants, and she manages to get
into a situation where he finds it necessary to let her go?

In case you're interested, I'm trying to write a song to be
entitled "The Streets of Orado".

------------------------------

Date: 16 DEC 1980 0220-EST
From: The Moderator
Subject: Plot / Title Responses on an Empire's Lunatics

   The story with a set of methodical madmen on the home planet (in
   charge of the home planet I believe) of a galactic empire is, I
   believe, an Ellison story. It so happens that I have forgotten
   the title (I think it was something to do with Guggle-Fishes ...
   one of the insanity tests).  -- Peter da Silva <c.dasilva@BERKELEY>

   The story Steve is looking for is "The Crackpots", by Harlan
   Ellison, available in "Paingod and Other Delusions" (Jove, 1978).
   What struck me most about this story is how it seems to be done
   in the style of a Philip K. Dick story.    -- Leor <LEOR at MIT-MC>

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 0956-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: Ace printing quality

I recently bought a book published by Ace, "Journey to Aprilioth"
by Eileen Kernough.  Not only was it riddled with misprints, but
thirty pages were duplicated.  That is, pages 280 to 310 were
replaced by copies  of pages 250 to 280.  The bookstore, "Future
Fantasy", was good about taking it back; apparently a lot of
them were like that.  The book itself is ok, though it's kind
of misrepresented by the cover blurb.  That makes it out to be
Tolkienesque fantasy, when there is no magic (though lots of
mystery) in it and the setting is Europe around 1000 BC.  I
guess it fell into the crack between sf and historical novels.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 1110-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: book prices

Apparently it is true, paperbacks have gone up that much.  Or rather,
some of them have.  Not all paperbacks have hit the $2.50 mark yet,
it depends on the size of the book, the publisher, and the name of
the author.  I suspect that at least part of the price rise is a
"what the market will bear" attitude, but there have been some real
rises in costs.

Production costs like paper, printers union members, authors
royalties, and buying the rights to the book have driven the cost
up quite a bit.  At least the cost is still below the high-water
marks being set by mainstream stuff, like "Thorn Birds" and the
others setting record prices for the rights to the book (a few
years ago they paid so much for the rights to that book that they
had to charge $2.50 for the book, everything else was at the $1.50
stage I think).

I realize that this isn't chock full of hard facts, but I hope
this points you slightly in the right direction to find the facts.

        steve z.

P.S.  If you think the rise from $.95 to $2.50 is bad, I started
      collecting when they were $.50, so I've seen a 400% increase
      (in about 11 years).  And comic books, oy-vaysmir, they've
      gone from 12 cents to 50 cents!  With a corresponding decrease
      in size.

------------------------------

Date: 15 DEC 1980 1230-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: book inflation

  Well, for a large publishing house there are several significant
factors in the retail price of a book.
  First among these for a book with a large print run is the cost of
paper, which is the largest portion of those costs which are the same
per book (fixed costs, like editing, press setup, and so on, become a
small fraction of the total when you have as large a print run as Ace
typically does).  Paper costs have grown monstrously because of the
high price of even the lousy wood that goes into their paper.
  Also, your memory may be a bit off; for a book that size $.95
would have been a very good price 6 years ago; from my digging into
the MITSFS stacks that was the price for DAW books that far back,
and DAW's have typically been the last prices to rise.
  And the book in question is illustrated, even if the illustrations
are second-rate and terribly printed; this, they feel, entitles them
to charge more. An important factor in pricing decisions is what the
public is believed to be willing to pay; hence, SMILEY'S PEOPLE, the
conclusion of a Le Carre trilogy is g^R\N@L^d@Hf\j`\@P& @Rf@XBdNJL^d@B@`B`JdDBFVX@Djh@\^@XBdNJd@hPB\X@fBrX@*
X@nPRFP@Rf@FjddJ\hXrBlBRXBDXJ@L^d@dBhPJd@XJff\RZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZBhJt@bj@JF@brp`@bbtjb@ &(d^Zt@^XXR\N\ @Bh@ $Z0&jDTJFht@`B`JdDBFV@D^^V@bjBXRhr(PRf@Rf\Nh@&X@Djh@@FB\Nh@dJfRfh@fJ\HR\N@hPRf@R\L^@BX^\NX@R\@dJf`^\fJh^@BZJsh's remark about paperbacks with "gummed bindings likely to
fall apart after the first reading", etc.  I just subscribed to the
Quality Paperback Book Club and haven't received any books yet so
can't verify it, but they won my heart by their ad which said, "just
because books are made from trees is no reason for their leaves to
turn yellow and fall to the ground."

Karen

------------------------------

FAUST@MIT-ML 12/15/80 10:23:49 Re: does anyone remember??

  I saw a very strange (and hilarious) "horror" film about fifteen
years ago but have never again heard anything about it.  I believe
the name of the film was "Uncle was a Vampire".  It is about this
guy who gets a crate from his "dead" uncle.  The crate turns out
to be the uncle in a coffin.  The protagonist then begins to turn
into a vampire.  The levity is provided by the interaction of the
nephew and a so called vampire expert who is staying at the same
resort attempting to take a vacation.  The constant pestering of
the expert by the nephew (as he attempts to understand his own
malady) and the expert's reaction becomes increasingly comic.
There are no real thrilling or intensely frightening scenes (or
even attempts at frightening scenes) and I believe that this one
was DESIGNED to be a comedy.  (As apposed to a film like "Night
of the Living Dead" which we laugh at, not with.)  Anyone ever
seen this film, or know anything about it?
        Greg

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 0820-PST
From: URBAN at RAND-AI
Subject: Film Technology

   Can someone confirm or correct the rumor that the special effects
in the upcoming film, "Altered States" were partially accomplished by
digitizing the film image and then, well, altering its state?

        Mike Urban

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 20:00:09-PST
From: Cory.conde at Berkeley

On the inquiry about that new film technique to speed film up to
create a 3-d effect, I believe it is Douglas Trumbull's ( CE3K ,
etc. ) SUPER-70 system. A brief 'hint' is given on page 72 of
January 1978 issue of the American Cinematorapher.  The original
version of Super-70, as I heard somewhere, required someone to
look in a small `peep show` viewer, but later versions are
supposed to be projected.  I think Media Scene had something
on it too.

Dan Conde

P.S. Apparently, it is one of those 5-year projects, so wait....

------------------------------

HGA@MIT-MC 12/16/80 02:04:56 Re: Data Encryption Standard

In the late 60's, IBM started a research project on ciphers
that has produced a lot of good literature and several important
cryptosystems.  The effort concentrated on a family of ciphers
that lent itself to high-speed implementation in hardware (one
can imagine the fun second source memory manufacturers will have
when the Series H uses an encryption protected fiber optic bus).
In January 1976, one of these systems was adopted by the National
Bureau of Standards (NBS) as the federal Data Encryption Standard
(DES) on sensitive but unclassified data.

Cryptanalysis by Whit Diffie, Martin E. Hellman, and others has
not found an algorithmic attack any better than a 50% computational
savings over an exhaustive search of the keyspace.  Unfortunately,
the key is only 56 bits, and Diffie and Hellman have calculated that
for only 20 megabucks, a computer could build around a million LSI
chips each testing a key per microsecond.  This system could search
the entire keyspace in approximately a day, at an average cost of
$5,000.  This was calculated in 1977, and needless to say it would
be much cheaper today, not to mention in the future.

There have been some fairly believable allegations that the National
Security Agency (NSA, or No Such Agency), which is responsible for
foreign communications intelligence and codebreaking, brought pressure
to bear so that the key would be small enough for them to search in
the eventuality a foreign power were to use the DES.  On the other
hand, this indicates that the NSA was not able to cryptanalyticly
crack DES, and that those desiring really secure communications can
merely use a larger key.  Both Diffie and Hellman, and IBM have
suggested that multiple enciperment could also improve the security
of DES, but it is pretty obvious that its preferable to improve the
standard.

Fortunately, between the IBM research, and the recent public
key cryptosystems by Diffie and Hellman, and Ron Rivest, enough
technology exists so that anyone desiring to create a secure
system should be able to do so.


[ For more information about modern cryptography techniques see:

    Diffie, W. and M. Hellman, "Privacy and Authentication: An
    Introduction to Crytography", Proc. of the IEEE, vol. 67,
    no. 3, pp. 397-427, March 1979.

  This paper is a tutorial introduction to modern cryptography
  and contains one of the best bibliographies of work in this
  field.                                                  -- RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 15 DEC 1980 1249-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: MITSFS

  Please, no quotes around "world's largest open stack SF collection".
Until the Ackermann collection (which was recently given to the City
of Los Angeles) becomes publicly available (which may well be never)
we \are/ the largest library (i.e., open stack collection).  Aside
from our global fannish connections to find out if anyone is near, we
published an ad in SEACON '79's second progress report (in response
to the British SF Assn. which had claimed the title with a mere 3000
books) proclaiming that we were the largest and have yet to hear from
anyone challenging that assertion (although there's this type in
Antwerp at the national university who keeps sending us requests for
obscure material).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 19:09:36-PST
From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley

Just to set the record straight (after all the flack I got for the
mere mention of the possibility), I wasn't asking if MITSFS still
existed.  Noone in his right mind could possibly in even his most
delirious moments conceive of such an occurance as the termination
of such an institution.  I was just wondering if the life time
memberships were still available.  Thanks for the replies though.

                                dave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 DEC 1980 0745-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #168
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 17 Dec 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 168

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Correction & Plot/Title Response & Wizard & Zelazny
     & PB Inflation, SF Radio - HGttG, SF Movies - Film Questions
           & Horrible SF Movies, Real Life Computer Capers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 0857-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: whoops

Eileen Kernaghan, not Kernough, wrote "Journey to Aprilioth".
Looks like Ace isn't the only one to have misprints......

------------------------------

Date: 16 DEC 1980 1023-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Telzey story query

The story in question sounds like "The Telzey Toy", which I think
has come out either as a book in itself or as the lead novella in
a collection of Telzey stories.

------------------------------

ZEMON@MIT-MC 12/17/80 06:56:39 Re:  Varley's Wizard

      . . . continues the story that Varley started in TITAN,
and is the second book of a \trilogy/.  It introduces more
complications into the plot of the TITAN series, and clears
up some nagging items as well; ever wonder what a satellite-
brain looks like?  What happens when \tourism/ hits Gaea?
What composers does a Titanide like?

      I enjoyed the book very much -- I read it three times the
week I bought it.  I would recommend WIZARD to anyone who has
read TITAN.  If you have not yet read TITAN, I also recommend
that very highly.

-Landon-

------------------------------

Date: 12/16/80 1105-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Varley's Wizard

   In response to Dave Rossien request for info on "Wizard."

   Not a real review here, just what I remember from reading "Wizard"
out of MITSFS last summer.  If you read "Titan", "Wizard" is a must
read and in some ways I found it better.  Varley's writing style is
definitely showing signs of improving.  I felt him to be fairly rough
and simplistic in his early works. 

   "Wizard" definitely picks up where "Titan" left off.  Rocky has
been "wizard" for many decades and has become tired of life.  The
story is of her and Gabby joining on a quest with two visitors who
have come to Ghea to be cured of incurable illnesses and must prove
themselves worthy of the "god's" notice.  Of course, Gabby and Rocky
have their own secret plans to take care of along the way, which is
why they have joined this perticular quest.

I found the book to be a good read, but since it is obviously
the second book of a trilogy, borrow the hardcover to read or
wait for the paperback to come out. (Unless you prefer to collect
hardcover.)
                                     Good reading,
                                        Greg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 1934-EST
From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan)
Subject: `Wizard'

     I just finished reading `Wizard' by John Varley (at the cost
of getting an incomplete in Philosophy because I was supposed
to be writing a paper and of not studying for my Physics final
tomorrow).  `Wizard' was better than `Titan' and `The Ophuichi
Hotline' (which are very good), but not as good as Varley's short
stories (which are great).  I don't know what that makes the book
(excellent perhaps?), but in any case it is is definitely worth
reading!
     It is the sequel to `Titan'.  (I realize the period should
be inside the quotes, but it looks really bad that way.  Anyone
interested in starting a movement to have puctuation placed
where it should go and not where English books tell us it should
go?) I suggest that you read `Titan' first if you want to read
`Wizard' and haven't read `Titan'.  From the end of `Wizard' it
is obvious that it too will have a sequel called `Demon'.
     `Wizard' is the story of two humans, Robin (an epileptic)
and Chris (a schizophrenic), who are two out of the ten people
that are picked that year by Gaea - out of all humans - to be
granted miracles.  Robin and Chris want to be cured, but they
find out that there is a big catch.  They have loads of fun
with Rocky, Gaby, and Gaea (who has gone somewhat bonkers).
There is love, violence, sex, and buzz bombs.  There are loads
of neat creatures, new ideas, and wonderful imagination.  To
find out more, read it for yourself!

                                --Doug Alan

P.S.  I read the serialized version of `Titan' in `Analog'.
      Does anyone know if the book is any different?

[ There are very substantial differences between the ANALOG
  version of "Titan" and the actual novel.  A major subsection
  was simply eliminated from the novel in the serialization.
  Unfortunately that section plays a major role in Rocky's
  development.  In my personal opinion, if you have only read
  the serialization you have not read "Titan".          -- RDD ]

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 1140-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Zelazny, cost of paperbacks

For those who like Zelazny, the new collection (at least I think
it's new), "The Last Defender of Camelot" looks very good.  I'm
about half way thru and it has almost all been good.  The book
includes such things as "For a Breath I Tarry", "The Game of
Blood and Dust", and the original of "Damnation Alley".

To Chip, I really think that the increased cost of buying the
book rights and the increases in the author's royalties are a
big factor in the rise of paperback book costs.  You really do
pay for the author's name.

To Kamesh, now that I think about it, $.95 books go back more
like 9 years, than 6 years, I remember paying $.95 when I was
in High School.  As I recall prices went $.50, $.60, $.95, and
$1.25, all while I was in High School, or shortly thereafter,
which is 8 years back.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 0731-PST
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: Book prices

You young whippersnappers!

Why, I recall, back in the REAL old days, when I collected
(accumulated) every SF book I could lay my hands on, the normal
price was 35 cents!  And a few were still around at 25!  (And
I walked 39.87 miles to school each day through blizzards, and
fought sabertooth tigers at the cave mouth...)  None the less,
when you look at the change over the past 30 years or so, it
is Astounding (and Amazing and Fantastic, too...)!

You don't read the complaints about getting 1/2 cent per word
or so that authors always used to gripe when discussing SF
sales, but I'm still sure that the author's cut is the least
of the excuses for the price jumps.  The answer is, of course,
simple.  Don't buy.  I apply what I probably misnomer as "value
engineering" to most things; figure out what it is worth to you
and don't pay more.  I haven't bought a new paperback at cover
price for at least 5 years now, and probably more.  I can't
recall the last one.  It helped that I stopped collecting and
gave my collection to a friend in 1970 or so (whom I haven't
seen since.....hmm, may be significant...).

But it is obvious from the quality of workmanship and material
costs that books are not worth their price.  (The content may be
priceless, but that's another matter.)  However, they will cost
that much if you pay it.  You make your own bed...

Curmudgeonly, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1980 1724-EST
From: Paul Dickson via <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide

I was looking at a recent SFL mailing and saw some discussion of
the Hitchhiker's Guide on radio here.  It is true that it will be
on PBS starting in March, but in the meantime WCLV in Cleveland
will be playing the records.

For those in the Cleveland area, the program on which it appears
is called "WCLV Saturday Night", which is broadcast sometime on
Saturday nights, obviously.  Not so obviously, it is repeated on
Wednesday afternoons, at which time it is called "WCLV Saturday
Night on Wednesday Afternoon".  This is a generally humorous
program lasting an hour or so.

Listeners in the Boston area should listen to WCRB (102.5) on
Saturday nights after the symphony broadcast (generally over
about 10pm).  The program is called "WCRB Saturday Night", and
lasts about an hour and a half.  Unlike the Cleveland program,
it is NOT repeated.

Due to the similarities in their programs, WCRB and WCLV exchange
program material each week.  On odd weeks listeners in Boston will
hear about 30 minutes of the WCLV program, and on even weeks here
a full 1.5 hours of WCRB program.  In Cleveland the procedure is
reversed.

So every other week in Boston you hear one episode of the Hitchhiker's
Guide.  I don't know if the Boston listeners will be missing anything
on the other weeks or not - the exchange is by mailing tapes back and
forth, so they could arrange it.

For fans of British radio programs, there are other reasons for
listening to these programs: WCRB plays old "Goon Show" and "I'm
sorry, I'll Read That Again" programs, both BBC productions from
several years ago.  The latter program has a bunch of Python and
Goodies people in it (including John Cleese).  The puns fly fast
and furiously.  These BBC programs are generally included in the
tapes sent to Cleveland.

I explain all this in such detail because WCRB (and maybe WCLV) are
not your typical radio staions: they are COMMERCIAL classical music
staions.  Tastes in music are hard to predict, so I don't know who
among the SFL people may have stumbled across them.  WCRB announcers
sound like they are trying to talk like BBC announcers, but they just
come off sounding stuffy.  The guy who does the "WRCB Saturday Night"
program is not like this, however.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 1643-EST
From: Alyson L Abramowitz via <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: More guides to Hitchhikers

Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy is apparently also on in another
place in Boston. According to a co-worker of mine, it is on WBCN
104.1 Boston Sunday Review (Sunday mornings) for four weeks
beginning yesterday.

    Alyson L. Abramowitz

------------------------------

Date: 15 DEC 1980 1234-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: film techniques

There's another development, although I don't know how recent it is,
if you move in the other direction: I've been told that most of the
effects in SW4&5 were filmed at about 1fps, with the camera motion
appropriately reduced.  This allows them to get an adequate exposure
without excessively bright lights and still get the depth of field
that comes from using a small aperture.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 1343-PST (Tuesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-ATS (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Vampires and Cryptography

(Vampires and Cryptography????  Oh well)....

I can very vaguely recall "Uncle was a Vampire".  It used to run
on the late night TV horror movies out here, but I have not seen
it in at least 8 years.  It was definitely a comedy, planned as
such.  In the same genre is the equally bizarre "My Son the
Vampire", which has an opening sequence done by Allan Sherman
(one my favorite funny song types).  He also performs the title
song for the film:

          My son the vampire,
          He's a total loss,
          Whenever he gets a look at you,
          He gets out his dental floss....

          BLOOOOOOOOOOD!  He wants ... BLOOOOOOOOOOOD!

Anyway.  It goes on from there in a typically amusing fashion.
The story involves a robot that Dracula (yes, Bela played Dracula
in this comedy!) which accidently gets sent to an old woman who
is expecting a crate of artifacts from a dead relative's estate.
Truly bizarre and hilarious.

                    ------------------------------

I can't let the concept that the Diffie/Hellman/Rivest code
systems are "secure" go by at face value.  There are a number
of problems with public-key cryptosystems (which is what we
are talking about here, really).  They range from mundane
issues such as security of key distribution and the centralized
directory of "public" keys, to issues regarding the viability
of the algorithms used in the face of possible advances in
theoretical mathematics which could CONCEIVABLY break the
security wide open by massively reducing the search space.

Just wanted to mention that there are potential problems with
this as well as the other encryption systems.  The only REALLY
secure methods are "one-time pad" techniques, which are the
techniques used for all really important communications.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 16 December 1980 0323-EST (Tuesday)
From: Mike.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E)
Subject:  security and passwords

     A friend of mine, a few years back, managed to print out a
listing of all the passwords on a particular tops-20 machine. It
turns out that by far, the most popular password is 'susan'.

     My friend proceeded to become respectable and got a job
working for the computer center, answering questions from users.

     Well one day, while I was visiting him at work, a student
came in claiming that someone had guessed his password and deleted
all his files.  We explained to him that this was very unlikely,
unless, of course, his password was 'susan'.

     The student, wide eyed with amazement, replied
     "How did you know my password was 'susan'?"

(I wish I could think of a cute moral for this story)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 DEC 1980 0649-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #169
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 18 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 169

Today's Topics:
SF Radio - HGttG,SF Books - Wizard/Titan & PB Inflation & Survey Ship,
       SF Movies - First Color Film?, Real Life Computer Capers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

TLD@MIT-MC 12/17/80 11:30:45 Re: More guides to Hitchhikers

Yes, WBCN (in Boston) is doing HGttG on Sunday mornings.  They
said that they would broadcast an episode at 0930 for the next
three Sundays.  I assume that they are using the records that
have been mentioned in a previous issue of SFL.

"The guy" who does the WCRB Saturday Night show is the station
manager, and definitely not stuffy!  He's very fond of British
humor and uses his professional connections to get hold of all
sorts of good stuff.  Definitely worth trying!

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 11:59:55-PST
From: Cory.cc-06 at Berkeley
Subject: HHgttG

     I enjoyed the Guide (HHGttG is incredibly unwieldy abbr.)
immensely, and all I heard of the radio show was the final
episode (which wasn't part of the book anyway).

                        -- Peter da Silva (c.dasilva@berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 0714-PST
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: Wizard

Re the request for Wizard evaluations: A reasonably good book,
but disappointing, not in the writing or the crafting, but in
the characters and situation themselves.  What has happened to
Gaea, and the carried-over characters from the earlier book,
is just as upsetting to the reader (at least me) as Louis Wu's
becoming a wirehead in Ringworld Engineers.  When you enjoy a
book, and like the personae of the characters, it is just as
real as the people living down the street.  (To me, MORE real
than those in the next block I don't know.)  So, when things
happen to them, without sufficient internal justification for
you to feel it is deserved, you feel bad about it.

I think I'm getting more Pollyanna-ish in my old age, but more
and more, I am feeling that there isn't much excuse for fiction
to have anything unpleasant or disappointing in it; there's
enough of that in the world around me.  If an author is going
to go into all the trouble of creating a universe, which every
author does, some more successfully than others, why put in evil
or irritants?  Yes, I know the necessities of plot developments
and tension and all the stuff that makes fiction worth reading
require a struggle of good-vs-evil or some sort of adversity,
but it gets to me sometimes...

It all boils down to the fact that the only reality to you is
what you perceive.  If you read and internalize a book world,
it is real.  But in this case, you can get to God (or at least
to his agent).  I have no real path to the God (or mindless
dance of atoms, or whatever) of this external cosmos to complain
and in some way punish Him (or IT, or Them) for creating tooth
decay and depression, say, but I can go to author X and blow
him(her) away for making my favorite character get killed off.
I haven't done it yet, but the fact that its possible makes it
easier to reconcile oneself with the book world.  After all,
the author can revive that character, just as A. C. Doyle
brought Holmes back after trying to kill him off.  You can't
do that here (yet?).

Better a universe under control than one that controls you.
(But the responsibility is awesome!)

Confusedly, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 09:52 PST
From: Stewart.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Varley notes

News item and a comment for Varley fans:

I heard yesterday that Voyager 1 will leave the system in the general
direction of Ophiuchus.

At the end of Titan, the room where Rocky and Gaby meet Gaea (Louis
Quinz furniture and lighted floor panels) sounds just like the room
at the end of 2001.  Wonder what other SF references I missed?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1980 11:46:33-PST
From: Cory.conde at Berkeley

While on the subject of paperback book prices, I am noticing that
the sudden increase of SF paperback book sections in stores around
1977 has now gone sour at SOME places.
    Happily, many places have retained thair larger sections, but
some places have cut them back below the pre-1977 levels.  Perhaps
the inundation of the not-so-good-early-books-by-famous-authors did
not sell well.
    How is the availability at other places?  I am refering to
"general" book stores, and not the SF specialties shops...
                        Dan Conde

------------------------------

Date: 17 DEC 1980 1208-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: book costs and qualities

  Even if you ignore half of Norman Spinrad's LOCUS column,
"Staying Alive", as typical Spinrad flaming, it doesn't seem likely
that authors' payments have gone up nearly as fast as the price of
books --- and for the average SF author those payments are \still/
a small part of the cost.  Even though Niven and Pournelle got a
monstrous advance for the paperback rights for LUCIFER'S HAMMER,
Niven isn't getting similar $$ for his other work, and most other
authors aren't getting within a couple of orders of magnitude what
was paid for LH.  (Incidentally, Spinrad advises writers to go for
a lower advance and a better royalty agreement (technically, most
payments to authors before publication are advances against expected
royalties rather than flat fees) since this will help the average
author survive a fallow period.)
  Certainly there isn't much money spent on advertising; one of
the things Harlan was flaming about at Noreascon was that lack of
advertising for LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE and the poor quality of
the scripts when radio advertising was done.  Similarly, I've seen
virtually no advertising for SF (outside of panels for the stuff
that got monstrous advances (e.g., THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST)) since
a couple of summers ago when there were these awful radio ads for
the trade edition of Niven's WHEN THE MAGIC WENT AWAY ("10,000
years ago, the world was facing its first energy crisis. . . .")
THE PATCHWORK GIRL only got a share in Ace's "Super October"
splash in the Noreascon II Program Book, which cost them (total)
around $1400.
  It is worth while noting, though, that there is a monstrous
markup in the book business.  MITSFS pays 25% off cover price
on \everything/ since we get stuff shipped from a jobber; it's
my guess that he pays >40% off and a large chain might pay as
much as 60% off for ordering in quantity.  The figures are even
worse in other branches of publishing: last summer, while I was
working on getting out the Fantasy Showcase Tarot Deck, I had
some discussions with the character who publishes most of the
specialty decks done in this country, both directly and through
the printer.
  I should also point out that there have always been publishers
and lines known for selling at standard prices books that were
very badly assembled.  (Lancer, a defunct 1960's house, is most
noted for this in the MITSFS, which has an active book-repair
[program].)  There are also instances of particular runs coming
out badly because the high-speed print-and-assemble line hasn't
been tweaked properly, and individual lemons even in a good run.
My experience with Ace the past few years has been that they are
at least up to the average (perhaps better, if the average is as
low as some think) in durability of the finished product.  Of
course, the printing is poor (thanks largely to the terrible
paper they use) and the typeface is painful (at least to me --
Zapf Book really isn't suitable for text unless set relatively
small in proportion to the page) but those are separate problems.

P.S. Speaking of the products of Ace's "Super October", I've just
     read Marion Zimmer Bradley's SURVEY SHIP and rate it ALP
     (= "Avoid Like Plague").  It's riddled with factual errors in
     science and music and with contradictions about the characters,
     and it's written like a juvenile with an extra-large helping
     of sex thrown in.  Badly constructed, with assorted random
     events and a "solution" that doesn't solve anything (unless
     (Ghu forbid!) she intended that this be a series . . .).

------------------------------

Date: 17 DEC 1980 1411-EST
From: OAF at MIT-MC (Oded Anoaf Feingold)

To Will Martin:

I'm confuzzed by your comment regarding paperback prices, namely
"don't buy."  If I don't buy, how do I get to read?

I'm a member of MITSFS, true, but new stuff is hard to get cuz
everyone wants it and there aren't infinite copies.

Anyway, look at it realistically.  Even if you're a student coolie
somewhere, $2.50 isn't worth more than 45 minutes of your earning
capacity.  And presumptively an SF book well chosen will provide
you with several multiples of that time in pleasure (or at least
distraction so you don't spend MORE money during that time).  A
sub costs at least $1.50, a movie ....  You can make up the
difference by forgoing 4 pax of cancers, or by for once making
dinner at home rather than going out to eat.

The same damn $2.50 is also not out of line considering how long
ago paperbacks cost $1.25 or whatever.  But rather than worrying
that point, note that if you get together with four friends you
can each buy a book which everyone reads and it's 50 cents apiece
like in the good old days.  Maybe the answer is to have friends.

Then if you want to perform a mitzvah, send the publisher a letter
telling him his books are low quality and as long as he doesn't
make them right he'll only have 20% the sales he would otherwise
among YOUR army of acquaintances.  If he gets a few hundred he
might pay attention.  But don't hold your breath.

I take a back seat to nobody in curmudgeonliness, but this pattern
of undirected fulmination against low paperback quality coupled
with high prices is gonna get you NOwhere, so why indulge?  If
people get together they can do something, but they're not going
to do it the way it's getting done here.  Maybe the answer is to
have friends.  (As Lech Walesa might have said.)

Oded

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 05:12:05-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley

How Soon They Forget:

I believe "From Earth To Moon" was the first major studio science
fiction film ever produced in color.  One doesn't see it much any
more as by contemporary standards it is fairly dull.

Byron C. Howes
University of North Carolina Computation Center
Chapel Hill, North Carolina  27514

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 05:13:41-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley

How Soon They Forget (and How Soon I Forget):

The first major studio color SF film was "Destination Moon" based
on Heinlein's "Rocketship Galileo" directed by Irving Pichel for
Universal International in 1950.  In 1951, "When Worlds Collide"
based on the novel was directed by Rudolph Mare for Paramount.
Haskins directed "War of the Worlds" for Paramount in 1953.

Byron Howes
University of North Carolina Computation Center
Chapel Hill, N.C.  27514

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1980 0924-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: cryptography

I don't know if this is really relevant to sf, but since people
are discussing it, I'll throw in my two bits.  It's always seemed
to me that a basic problem with public-key cryptosystems is not so
much that they can be broken but that you don't know who a message
is coming from.  Your enemies may not know what your friends are
telling you, but they can still tell you something else.  If you
get a message saying "Buy Swizzlestick Industries at 25", it could
be a real tip or it could be a plant.  You could arrange a sort of
code within a code for communication with your friend; something
like "if the message contains the word Cthuhlu, you'll know it's
from me", but if the bad guys guess that that is what you're doing
they can send you a similar but bogus message.  One way or another
you have to get some information from your friend that you can
absolutely identify as being from him, and that ultimately gets
you back to mutual-key cryptosystems.

------------------------------

Date: 17 DEC 1980 0826-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Susan

     I know better than to use my wife's name for my password so
I got smart and used my wife's sister's name.  Guess what it is.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 DEC 1980 0801-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #170
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 19 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 170

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Telzey & Fempros & Unpleasant Universes & PB Inflation,
     SF Movies - Vampire Killers & Flash Gordon & Film Questions,
           Real Life Computer Capers, TESB - Plot Theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 December 1980 0629-EST (Thursday)
From: R.Kamesh <Kamesh.Ramakrishna at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  Telzey

The story is the  "The Telzey Toy"  and it is in  a collection of  the
same name.  There  are about 3-4  stories in the  novella. It was  the
second time I had encountered the lady  and it took some time to  make
the connection.  I thought  that the first story  I had read was  much
better.  I dont recall  its name, but  it was the  story in which  she
first realized  that She  Had  Powers.  There  was a  large,  cat-like
creature that  was  her pet,  till  she discovers  that  it is  of  an
intelligent, telepathic species that had chosen her as a candidate for
developing a comm-link with humans.

Kamesh

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1980 at 2215-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TELZEY (AND OTHER FEMPRO'S) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, the story RMS is asking about is probably THE TELZEY TOY.

By the way, when Telzey tales were under discussion some days
ago, no one mentioned THE LION GAME.

While Telzey (and Trigger Argee) are okay, my favorite Schmitz
heroine is Nile Etland of THE DEMON BREED.  No psi, but an
intriguing water-world ecology, and a smart, level-headed, very
competent fempro.

Schmitz has consistently led the field since the mid '60's, in
having more SF books with female protagonists than any other
writer, 5 at present.  But if he doesn't have a new one in the
works, he's surely going to be matched by Barbara Paul, who has
had 4 between 1978 and 1980.  (Joanna Russ and Anne McCaffrey
have each had 4, also, but over 11-year spans.)

Spotting new fempro paperbacks isn't so much of a problem for
those put out by the usual publishers, it's the off-beat ones
that are hard to come by.  Where new Manor books are sold I
have no idea -- certainly not in our local SF-oriented emporia,
nor in any of the supermarkets I've checked.  Yet I've found 2
Manor fempro's in 2nd-hand SF racks, which leaves me worried
at what others might have been issued that I've missed.  For
a collector, it's no consolation that SF from such sources is
almost inevitably 3rd rate at best... about like what you'd
expect from a vanity press.

But, at least I've heard of Manor, but has anyone ever run across
Carlyle Books, published by Siena Pub. Corp. in NYC?  I just found
a perfectly normal looking SF '80 paperback of theirs, THE PEOPLE
EXCHANGE by an unknown, Robert F. Baylus.  The plot structure is
quite similar to Lee Killough's DOPPLEGANGER GAMBIT, i.e., a sort
of detective story with the point of view alternating between the
villain and the fempro.  The most amazing thing is that it's just
as good as the Killough!  The heroine is reminiscent of Varley's
and the future history scenario which features prominently as
background is credible. There are 2 sentient automata, a house-
hold unit and a central time-shared computer (which is castigated
as "bubble brain"), both of which are referred to as "'droids"
(complete with apostrophe, reflecting either the influence of
STAR WARS, or the supposition that the word will have established
itself in the language in that form).

If you run across THE PEOPLE EXCHANGE, give it a try.  Maybe it
just seemed better to me than it is because my expectations were
so low.  But it struck me as a distinctly competently handled
story.
                 ..............................

By the way, does anyone know if there has been a sequel to David
Gerrold's MOONSTAR ODYSSEY (1977)?  There was \going to be/ one,
and I seem to recall reading something about its plot, but I've
not seen any.  Not that I cared for MOONSTAR..., but again, after
WHEN HARLIE WAS ONE, my expectations were probably too high...,
however, it \was/ a fempro, and its sequel is likely to be, too.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1980 1412-PST
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: re: nasty fiction

Reading Will Martin's complaints about unpleasant events in sf (eg
Louis Wu becoming a wirehead in "The Ringworld Engineers") reminded
me of an article in Analog some time back.  It was written by a
founder of a company that would keep you in cryogenic storage until
a cure was found for your disease, or the Messiah came or a John
Bircher became president or whatever was your heart's desire.  He
had harsh words for science fiction writers.  All this pessimism
about the future could only do harm.  People are only going to work
hard if they think that tomorrow is going to be better than today;
progress is fueled by delayed gratification.  Stories of doom and
gloom are only going to convince people that they better get theirs
while the getting's good, thus bringing on the collapse.  Besides,
who is going to pay him to be frozen if no one believes in the
future?  He proposed a national campaign for the writing of sunny
sf.
     Me, I say smoke dope if you wanna feel good; that's not what
art is about.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1980 (Friday) 0123-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: How to read without buying -- off the shelf advice:

1- Have you ever heard of a library?  I know that some of us pride
   ourselves on having private versions thereof but the public ones
   are still with us and at quite reasonable prices (like: free)!
2- Try book swap: Here's the deal; you take them 1 used paperback
   in at least covered shape and pay about 60 cents (someone's got
   to pay the rent).  You get one "new" used book (or should I say
   "novel" used book -- just as bad!) ready to read.  I don't know
   about Boston etc, but there is a book swap at 21st and <some
   street between Chestnut and Walnut> in Philthadelphia that has
   a top notch SF section.

------------------------------

Date: 18 December 1980 2354-EST (Thursday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject:  Vampire film [ film query from SFL V2 #167 ]

   I would like to put forth "The Fearless Vampire Killers" as the
film title requested earlier.  It was made in the late sixties by
Roman Polanski.  It tells the story of vampire hunter staying at a
hotel where there (accidently) happens to be a vampire convention.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 11:11 PST
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF Lovers - Flash Gordon

I saw the new Flash Gordon yesterday. It was pretty good, although it
tended (like a lot of remakes these days) to 1980's camp. All in all,
I found it entertaining.  In this incarnation, Flash is (of course!)
a football star.  (I don't recall his profession in the original - can
anyone help me here?) This fact is made use of later in a rather silly
scene in Emperor Ming's palace, but otherwise is rather irrelevant.
Max von Sydow does a rather lousy Zarkov, and in fact doesn't seem
to play as much of a role as I seem to remember from the original.
Animation is pretty good, and the sets were lavish.  Lots of pretty
women and manly men.  (My girlfriend says that the Prince is the
cutest.  Maybe we should have a poll...)  And, finally, the end of
the movie presents us with a question mark.  Will the movie be
successful enough to warrant a sequel?  Only time will tell.

     --   Larry   -- 

------------------------------

LARKE@MIT-ML 12/17/80 23:54:43 Re: FILM TECHNIQUES, OLD AND NEW.

     Doug Trumball has indeed been kicking around a new film format
for some time. You can call it Super-70 or Showscan (an earlier name).
In a addition to using a high taking speed to eliminate residual
flicker, it also goes in for widescreen framing to get Cinerama-style
peripheral vision in the act.  Trumball has had several plans for the
format (including, of all things, turing it into a 'ride': everyone
enters a little theatreCar and is taken for a 'ride' down some rapids)
but has had in particular one filmic idea in mind, which he has been
trying to sell for years - a film called 'Brainstorm', which , from
the brief description I got from Bruce Dern a year ago, it would seem
to be a tale in the Westworld Futureworld vein.
     In the future sometime there exists a giant 'amusement park',
which is essentially a giant computer complex which allows the user
to be whatever heShe wants to be for one-half hour.  We follow three
people who live the machine out.  One man wants to be president -
and gets assasinated.  Another wants to be a CIA agent.  He has a
heart attack, and Dern tells me ''You will feel it.''
     The third person to try out the park ends up living an experience
that lets her purchase it...
     Bruce Dern felt that Paramount wouldn't give Trumball a
go-ahead, beacuase those folks with the money wouldn't trust him.
But didn't I see an announcement just the other day (but here,
dammit?) that announced that some film company was proud to add
a new property for filming - Doug Trumball's "Brainstorm".
     It wasn't  Paramount.

     In other areas...the big innovation in the shooting of SW's
effex was not so much the slow shutter speeds (which has been done
before) but the motion control camera, which allowed them to make
smooth, realistic movements of camera and subjects at those slow
speeds.
     Actually, Close Encounters must hold the record for long
exposures - for shots of the Mothership the lens was open for as
much as 80 secondsFrame, which means some of the shots took as
much as 8 hours to film.

     Larry

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1980 13:36:25-PST
From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley
Subject: encryption

What is fascinating to me about the NBS encryption standard is
the response given by the Federal Gummit to a mathematically
clear and provable public encryption algorithm.  If their DES
is really basically impenetrable, why do they care if someone
else comes up with another one?  But they do care very much
indeed, enough to make noises about legal repercussions for
those publishing. Conclusion?  The gummit can break DES if
they really want to, but they can't break the public key
encryption, and it scares them s--tless that people would
really be able to say things without them being able to
find out what it was.  I am not normally a conspiracist,
but in this case the actions of NBS and other agencies
seems to speak rather loudly.

                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1980 04:15:03-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: NSA vs. the People

I am much more convinced that NSA is not monitoring all calls by the
feasibility argument than I am by the assertion that "the government
has better things to do."  We learned too much during Watergate about
how nosy some officials are to be sanguine about what they will or
will not do.  And the Heritage Foundation, in a transition report
to Reagan, suggested resuming (expanding?) use of mail intercepts,
warrantless wire-taps, and "black-bag jobs".  For most people, the
question is academic; for some, it most definitely is not.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/19/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  In it KLH
amplifies on his suggestion of using something like the "artificial
hand in Zelazny's Amber" as a plot device in SW. (see [SFL V2 #150])
People who are not familiar with the Amber series or with TESB may
not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

KLH@MIT-AI 12/17/80 20:31:19 Re: Hand in Amber/SW

     I must admit I hadn't thought about the Amber time-loop angle.
Not bad.  What I actually had in mind when I made that reference
was the scene where Benedict is struggling against the enemy and
is somehow rendered immobilized and helpless -- except for his
mechanical arm, which is unaffected and in fact appears to take
action on its own, thus saving the world and so forth.
     Granted a hand is a pretty small thing, but since it's normally
used to hold a light-saber, who knows?  It may simply lend Luke the
necessary dexterity and responsiveness to slip past a baddie's guard.
Or vice versa, if it turns out that Vader can use the Force more
easily on plastic than on living blood and bones -- Dr Strangelove I
presume?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 DEC 1980 0925-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #171
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Saturday, 20 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 171

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Telzey, SF Movies - Horrible SF & Flash Gordon,
 SF Events - The Sky is Falling (REALLY), Real Life Computer Capers,
             Spoiler - Pohl's BtBEH & The Jesus Incident
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1980 1005-PST
From: William Gropp <WDG at SU-AI>

The first Telzey story mentioned by R. Kamesh is "Novice" which was
reprinted in an Analog collection (I think that it was "Prologue to
Analog").  It has recently been reprinted with another Telzey story
in "The Universe Against Her".  The cat-like creature is a Crest Cat.
I too thought the first story was better, though I did not like it as
much when I re-read it recently.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1980 2032-PST
From: DHARE at SRI-KL (Dwight Hare)
Subject: vampire movie

The movie put forth, "The Fearless Vampire Killers or: Pardon Me, But
Your Teeth Are in My Neck" is a GREAT, though relatively unknown movie
that came out of Britain in 1967 which was directed and included in
the cast Roman Polanski.  Unfortunately, the plot of this movie does
not meet the description nor did it have a hotel hosting a convention
of vampires.  What was incorrectly remembered was that after the old
professor and his assistant (Roman himself) were imprisoned in the
old castle, they attended a once a year ball in which all of the old
vampires rose from the castle graveyard to drink some fresh virgin
blood (ironically belonging to Sharon Tate, Roman's wife and Manson's
victim).  I recommend this movie highly, although it requires a
certain kind of mood to really enjoy.

Dwight

------------------------------

Date: 19 DEC 1980 1105-EST
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: To Reed.ES re Flash Gordon. 

I saw the movie recently, with friends.  I found the acting,
the animation and the script appalling.  The only redeeming factor
involved was the group I was with -- we had a great time, hacking
the film as it occured.  I will grant that the original serial has,
by current standards, poor special effects, but the new version had
nothing better -- after what has been done with such films as SW,
TESB, and even CEoTK, there is no, repeat, NO, excuse for such lousy
special effects -- the winged men for example, fly even worse than
in the original -- they look like the winged monkeys from OZ, and I
don't believe that was deliberate.

Flash's profession in the original serials was "Polo Player" (horses)
and he should have stuck with it, "Go, Flash, Go!"  Good grief -- Can
any self respecting woman of the '80's even picture herself as Dale
Arden?  And mind you, the essence of good literature, films, etc.
must involve the reader/viewer being able to, in some way, identify
with the major protagonists (or antagonists for that matter.)

-- Enoough flaming at the film -- suffice to say, I was disappointed
with Flash Gordon -- (Flesh Gordon was much better, both in humor and
in special effects.

------------------------------

DGSHAP@MIT-AI 12/17/80 18:56:15

MIT has an inter-semester activities period (IAP) which boils
down to essentially a free month for scientists-at-play.  I
am offering a course during IAP which I thought members of
SF-LOVERS might be interested in.  If you are in the Boston
area, I exhort (extort?) you to come to the class, if you
are not, then maybe with luck I can get you interested in
the topic.  Any/all help and comments are appreciated.

[ All IAP courses are free (tho technically open only to MIT
  affiliates), and enrollment (in this class) is accomplished
  by showing up to the first meeting. ]

The following is a blurb about the course:

   ------------------------------------------------------
          What REALLY happens when worlds collide?
   ------------------------------------------------------

The purpose of IAP course #1169b, entitled Creating Worlds
or The Sky is Falling (really), is to create a theoretically
sound model for a highly unusual planetary environment, which
will then become the setting for a new science fiction novel
by Dr. Robert L. Forward, the author of Dragon's Egg.

The book, which will be entitled "Roche World", involves
two planets, Roche and Eau, which are in an extremely tight
orbit about one another.  (Roche is made of dry rock, while
Eau is covered with water.)  This orbit is so small that the
resulting tidal forces distort the surfaces of the planets
into egg shapes which are on the verge of gravitational
disruption.  Because Roche and Eau follow a highly elliptical
path about their sun, the solar tide eventually becomes severe
enough to initiate the catastrophe, which begins with a huge
interplanetary waterfall.  As the planets continue to orbit
each other, the orientation of the solar tide changes, forcing
the ocean (and atmosphere) to cycle from lobe to lobe.  The
process stops when the two bodies pass beyond a critical
distance from the sun.

Since there are two entire worlds to design, there are an
enormous number of topics which can be investigated.  These
include (but are not limited to); the orbital dynamics and
geology of the system, the chemistry and behavior of the
atmospheres and oceans, the restrictions on the life forms
native to the environment, and the visual appearance of the
planets from different perspectives.  In addition, there are
a number of questions which can only be solved with computer
modeling techniques.

The seminar will meet in the Artificial Intelligence Playroom,
on the eighth floor of 545 Technology Square, Mondays and
Thursdays from Jan. 5-22, at 3:30 PM.  Regular attendance is
preferred.

   -------------------------------------------------------
          On Monday, January 12th, Dr. Forward will
             give a guest lecture to the class.
   -------------------------------------------------------

If you have any questions, please contact Dan Shapiro, at
(617) 253-1728 (or DGSHAP@AI for this crowd).

------------------------------

Date: 15 DEC 1980 1239-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: sexism in language

   I had half-forgotten that "meretricious" is derived from the Latin
word "meretrix", a prostitute, and when I was reminded of this decided
to chase it down. The obvious first choice ("mere" meaning something
vulgar, since -tor/-ter (fem. -trix) means one who does) was a dead
end, except for Merriam-Webster's definition of "meracious" as akin to
salacious; Oxford denies this but derives several words from the Latin
"mereri", to work for hire --- and of course the only thing a Roman
would hire a woman for would be sex.  Charming customs, some of these
ancient people had.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1980 1506-EST
From: Jeff Shulman <SHULMAN at RUTGERS>
Subject: Susan

Maybe they all read Asimov's Robot stories?

        jeff and Steve Z.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/20/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It reviews
"Beyond the Blue Event Horizon" and "The Jesus Incident". It includes
a hint about what happened to the Heechee.  People who have not read
BtBEH may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 18 December 1980 0629-EST (Thursday)
From: R.Kamesh <Kamesh.Ramakrishna at CMU-10A> 

I just spent another (sigh) $5+tax and bought Pohl's Beyond the Blue
Horizon, as well as "The  Jesus Incident" by Herbert and  <Whoever>.
Pohl  does  a  good job,  but, following the  trail blazed  by P. J.
Farmer, provides phony endings to perfectly good stories.  The story
is a sequel to Gateway, and explains all about the Heechee who built
the Gateway  system.  The  explanation has  nothing to  do with  the
story.  The Heechee  are a deus  ex black-hole-ina (I  dont know  if
that makes any sense, but  it is pig-Latin for  the "god in a  black
hole"), and  they stay  there.  There  is even  time-travel, but  it
stays put too.  I enjoyed the main plot.  Pohl writes good adventure
stories.

About "The Jesus Incident".  I wish Herbert would stop it.  I  refer
to his characters' periodic  blasts of hot  air laden with  Meaning.
The stuff of plots and counter plots.  It worked in the Dune Trilogy
but was wearing thin  towards the end.  It  worked sometimes in  the
"Dosadi experiment" too.   But in all  the rest of  his books its  a
miserable failure.  Especially here.

The real problem with that kind of  approach is that it sets up  the
reader to accept ANY  ending to the story.   Anything goes when  the
major content of the first few conversations in the book consists of
"Ahhh.  I understand."  and references  to complex lies.  There  are
some really good  sections to the  novel.  Where Pohl  had one  god,
here there  are two  (that means  it must  be twice  as good,  eh?).
Fortunately, one dies, the other  leaves, leaving the Son.  Lots  of
excess verbiage (do novel  writers really get paid  by the word?   I
thought that was only for short  stories in magazines).  What can  I
say - I  read it all  in one  sitting after having  returned from  a
dentist, who worked me over.  A lot of the excess is placed for easy
skipping like in the old programmed texts.

I am going overboard.  Its not really all  that bad, just not  worth
2.50+tax.  The Pohl book, maybe.

Kamesh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 DEC 1980 1038-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #172
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 21 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:
         SF Books - PB Inflation, On Writing SF (2 queries),
           Real Life Computer Capers, TESB - Plot Theories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1980 1813-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: paperback books (yet again).

A few of the stores I frequent still have a decent selection of SF.

I think several things killed the big SF boom.  The reasons
probably include the rash of old bad books by established stars,
although I suspect that a bigger factor was the plague of new
awful books by newcomers to the writing business, and the new
bad books by established authors.  Prices probably helped too.

Mentioning prices reminds me, could one or more of our
"local/resident" professional writers drop SF-L a note on the
financial arrangements of writing?  I guess that question is
directed to Pournelle, Niven, Forward, and Gerrold, I'm not
trying to pry into your affairs people, I'm more interested
in knowing if payments to authors are in general keeping up
with increases in book costs, going down relative to book
costs, or what.  (It would be nice if someone could explain
to me what advances really are, and paperback rights [which
I believe are an entirely different thing from advances] are).

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1980 0220-EST
From: RDD at MIT-AI
Subject: An extension to Steve's query

While on the subject of writing, I would like to ask if anyone
has comments on Bova's "Notes to a Science Fiction Writer" or
any of the other "How to Write SF" guides by SF people that
are sometimes mentioned in the literature.
                                                Enjoy,
                                                   Roger

------------------------------

Date: 21 December 1980 0220-EST
From: The Moderator
Subject: Digital Signatures in Public Key Cryptosystems

In [SFL V2 #169] ICL.Redford at SU-SCORE raised questions about
verifying digital signatures in public key cryptosystems.  This
sparked a number of descriptions of the same published algorithm
for handling signatures. I am only distributing 2 of the responses
in the digest to avoid needless repetition.  The other responses
have been collected in the file DUFFEY;SFLVRS CRYPTO on MIT-AI.
Anyone interested in reading them may obtain a copy of that file
by FTP or by mailing their request to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI.

Anyone interested in pursuing a discussion of computer security
and personal ID further should note that the HUMAN-NETS mailing
list is currently discussing those topics.  People interested
in joining that list should send forward their request to
HUMAN-NETS-REQUEST@MIT-AI.

Lastly, our thanks also to ACW at MIT-AI, CSD.BOTHNER at SCORE,
David.Lamb at CMU-10A, Eric at Berkeley, Faust at MIT-ML, JGA
at MIT-MC, Shrage at WHARTON-10, TAW at SU-AI, and York.Multics
at MIT-Multics for their responses on this topic.
                                                        -- RDD

------------------------------

Date: 18 December 1980 1602-EST (Thursday)
From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01)
Subject:  Public key cryptography

There've been  a couple  of comments  recently on  potential problems
with public  key encryption,  specifically on authentication  and key
distribution.  There are published  solutions (well, at least partial
solutions) to these  problems.  I'm too lazy to  look up the sources,
so just bear in mind that none of what follows is original with me.

1. Authentication: Suppose that A wishes to send a message to B, and
   B wishes to have some assurance that the message is indeed from A
   (or in general, from whomever the message claims as its  sender).
   One solution is to use a system in which the encryption  function
   commutes with the decryption function, that is where E D = D E  =
   the indentity, where E is the (public) encryption function and  D
   the (secret) decryption function.  Now A can send the message

              EB("... I am from A" || DA("I am from A"))

   ( EB is B's encryption  function, DA is A's decryption  function,
   || is concatenation.)  B decrypts this to get "...  I am from  A"
   followed by some garbage, call it  Q, which is the decryption  of
   the plain  text "I  am from  A".  Only  A could  have produced  Q
   (feasibly, that is).  B now computes EA(Q), which is:
           EA(DA("I am from A")) = "I am from A".  Voil'a!

2. Key distribution: Well, public keys are public.  One could simply
   publish everybody's encryption algorithm in a sort of phone book.
   This, however, has the problem  that scoundral S can perhaps  get
   to some copies of the  phone book and modify  the entry for A  to
   have S's encryption algorithm, with obvious results.  So, we  can
   set up a central information agency,  call it C, that has a  well
   advertised (and  thus hard-to-substitute)  encryption  algorithm,
   which also has the  property that it  commutes with the  (secret)
   decryption algorithm for C.  Each client comes to C and gives his
   encryption algorithm,  and  C  employs  some  reasonable  set  of
   standard authentication procedures  to insure the  lack of  fraud
   (note  that  this   is  an  easier   problem  than   broadcasting
   information far  and  wide  and  assuring  that  it  is  received
   everywhere without interference.)  Now when  B wants to know  the
   encryption algorithm for A, he asks C and C sends him DC("This is
   the algorithm for  A" ||  algorithm for  A).  Only  C could  have
   generated this message, as only C knows DC.  B now applies EC  to
   the message he receives, and again, Voil'a!

( I hope no one has been  confused by my use of encryption "algorithm"
  for "key".  A key is just one way of describing an algorithm. )

--Paul Hilfinger

------------------------------

Date: 12/18/80 1423-EDT
From: POHLIG at LL
Subject: Letter on "cryptography" by ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE

   The author has obvously missed one of the major benefits of
public-key cryptosystems.  These systems can be used to provide
digital signatures which are unforgeable.  Thus, by using the
proper protocol, one could verify the originator of a cryptogram
which deciphers into a message to buy a certain type of stock.
This example is one which is frequently mentioned by Diffie and
Hellman.  For more information on the subject, see the article
by Diffie and Hellman in the March 1979 issue of the Proceedings
of the IEEE, titled "Privacy and Authentication:  An Introduction
to Cryptography."  In particular, page 401 contains a discussion
on digital signatures.  The article also references works by
Merkle, Diffie, Hellman and others on the subject of public-key
cryptosystems.

[ Another reference of interest is Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman's
  article "On Digital Signatures and Public Key Cryptosystems",
  published in the Feb 1978 issue of CACM.  Thanks to Shrage and
  JGA for mentioning this paper.                          -- RDD ]

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/21/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

    The following message is the last message in this digest.  It
    discusses the "artificial hand in Zelazny's Amber" as a plot
    device for Star Wars.  People who are not familiar with the
    Amber series or with TESB may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 19 DEC 1980 1105-EST
From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Re The Hand of Amber, so to speak.

While this likely will not apply directly to TESB, it may amuse
those people out there who speculate.  In Celtic mythology,
(which Amber draws heavily on) there was a king who lost a hand
(I can't locate the story in my books right now, so names are not
included). The rules of the time and place dictated that the King
of the country had to be WHOLE, and a person who did not have all
his limbs intact could not rule.  He had a mechanical hand made
for him (by the gods?) which he wore in an attempt to win back,
the throne.  I cannot remember off hand where he won the throne
or was still denied it.  If, as I think happened, he won it and
was found out and killed, the parallel with Amber is nearly
complete (Benedict is not killed, but is also denied his right
to rule.)

As to how this tale applies to TESB -- I hope Luke gets killed
off.  He really is a mealy mouthed, holier then thou farm boy.
Han and Leia would make a much better ruling couple (Though Han
would never sit still long enough to be an Emperor or president
or senator or what ever.)  He makes a rotton Ceaser.  I would
like to see some of the center of the empire, court and all, as
I believe it is very romanesque (time of the ceasers.)  Except
for the missing barbarians at the gate...(I guess the rebels are
the equivalent.)

Enough ramblings for now.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 DEC 1980 0529-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #173
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 22 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:
   Writing SF - Contracts & Writer's Guides, SF Games - Magic, TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 DEC 1980 1001-PST
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Financial arrangements of writing

     I  don't   know  about   the  more   complicated   financial
arrangements of well-known authors, but I can say something about
a typical first-author contract with a good publishing house.
     My contract  with  Ballantine  for  DRAGON'S  EGG  pays  the
following royalties:

     10% of the retail price for hardcover copies
      8% of the retail price for the first 150,000 paperbacks
     10% of the retail price for paperbacks above 150,000

     It gets more complicated as we get into trade editions, book
clubs, foreign publications, and other rights  that  Ballantine's
staff  sells  to  others.  Typically Ballantine keeps 50% of book
club license fees (the SF Book Club is paying  a  royalty  of  30
cents  or  about  5%  of  their price.  I get half of that.), and
keeps 25% of foreign rights, which vary widely with  country  and
difficulty  of  translation.   There will be English, German, and
Japanese versions of DE.
     In order to keep beans on the table of the author  while  he
is  finishing  off  the  manuscript  and waiting the typical year
between delivery of MS and publication of book, and an additional
year before the sales are counted and the royalty calculated, the
publisher makes an estimate of the minimum  amount  of  royalties
that can be expected and gives the author a portion of that as an
advance  payment  against  the royalties.  If the book does well,
then the advance is paid off in the first year and from  then  on
the  author gets royalty checks.  If the book does poorly, it may
never sell enough copies to pay off the advance.
     As an author becomes better known and  gets  better  agents,
then  the  agents keep the foreign and other rights and sell them
separately, the percentages rise, the advances become larger, and
other clauses dictating print run sizes and  advertising  budgets
start to appear.
     In  answer  to  Steve  Zeve's  specific  question, since the
payment is based on a percentage of the retail selling price, the
payments to the authors have been in general keeping up with  the
increases in book costs.

     Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1980 2354-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: how to write sf guides.

For what its worth, I have on occasion seen the deCamps'
"Science Fiction Handbook, Revised" highly praised as a guide
to the business of writing.  When I read the book, I found it
really was a guide to the business of writing.  Not being a
writer by trade (or craft or skill) I can't really judge it's
value, but it looked very good to me.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date:  20 December 1980 14:05 est
From:  JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Back Again

Shade and Sweet Water to you all,

Just wanted to drop a note to reassure you that Amherst SF is still
extant. If anyone is interested in FR(Sounds so much more dignified
then D & D, doesn't it?), there are several people up there working
on variants including yours truely, and would be happy to pass their
modifications on (and take feedback). I am personally working on
a basis for magic similar to Niven's but with a renewable source
of mana.  Drop me a note if you're interested. I can't guarentee
response imediately but will drop you a line when I read my mail,
which is about once a month.
                                             Hackito ergo sum,
                                     Wipe out entropy in our lifetime,
                                          Fandom is a way of life,
                                                James Turner

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1980 1534-PST (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-ATS (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: TESB

I hope that Darth wins in the end.  All the other people are not
the sort of people I'd really care to know too well.

Darth though -- now there's a person with character!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 DEC 1980 0708-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #174
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 23 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:
        SF Books - A Midsummer Tempest & Wizard in Paperback,
                  SF Games - Magic, Shuttle Landing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 12/22/80 23:13:41 Re: A Midsummer Tempest

Has anybody noticed that almost all the dialogue in Anderson's "A
Midsummer Tempest" is in loose iambic pentameter?  Did he intend
the book as a play?  There are Shakespeare references all through
it, although (so far... I haven't finished the novel) Anderson is
careful to avoid mentioning Shakespeare's name.

   ---Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 12/22/80 1015-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Varley's "Wizard"

For those people in the Boston area, Varley's "Wizard" is out in
paperback.  I purchased a copy at The Science Fantasy Bookstore in
Harvard Square (18 Eliot St.)  on Saturday and am told that Barnes
and Noble also have it.  The Coop (both MIT and Harvard) did not
have it in as of Saturday.  Might be on the shelf there today.

                                              Enjoy,
                                                Greg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1980 1122-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Renewable Mana

I have yet to see any truly renewable source of energy.  most of the
so called renewable sources depend input from outside the system being
considered.  In general they seem to rely on good old Sol.  Sol itself
seems to be non-renewable, in a few billions of years Sol itself will
run down and then where will we be?  But anyway back to renewable,
Niven supplied a renewable source of Mana, it was through the use of
necromancy though.  Personally I have no desire to be the source of
that renewable supply of mana, but it was there.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1980 1558-PST
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: More Shuttle-butt  

I sent away for some passes to get in to see the space shuttle land.
The response was a formletter saying that they have not been printed,
but they will forward them to me when available.

Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 DEC 1980 0845-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #175
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 24 Dec 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 175

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Xanth Trilogy & A Midsummer Tempest & Yolanda,
                          TESB - Alternities
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1980 1224-PST
From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE
Subject: Anthony trilogy

Has anyone read Pier Anthony's trilogy: "The Magic of Xanth" (or
reviews of it). (I am asking because it is a January book club
selection.)
                -- Per Bothner

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1980 1204-PST
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: A Midsummer Tempest

I've never read "A Midsummer Tempest", though I've often seen it
in stores.  But judging just from the title, I'd be surprised if it
WEREN'T full of Shakespeare references and written in Shakespearean
style!  I do have one quick question for anyone who's read it: can
you tell me whether it directly follows the plot of a particular
play (as opposed to being a general Shakespeare imitation), and if
so which one (there being two obvious choices based on the title,
and they could even be combined into a single plot without too much
effort)?

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1980 1352 EST
From: Steve Lionel via <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SF Porn

The recent talk about "fempros" (feminine protagonists, I take it)
brings back to mind a book I happened across in the SF section of
a bookstore some five years ago.  Although it was indeed "sci-fi",
it really belonged in the "adult literature" section.  The book
was "Yolanda: The Girl From Erosphere", a medium-core porn novel
with an SF plot.

As best as I can remember, Yolanda was a "sexologist" who, with
another female and two males, were sent on a rocket journey to be
the emissaries representing Earth to a newly-discovered alien race
who communicated via sex, or something like that.  As in most porn
books, most imaginable sexual situations, and some unimaginable
ones, are explicitly documented.  At the end of the book, the crew,
along with two of the aliens, gets captured by some different aliens,
who aren't nice at all.  The new folks force various indignities on
Yolanda and her friends.  The book ends in the middle of this, with
a promise of a sequel.  I never saw the sequel.

I found "Yolanda" rather humorous, much like Flesh Gordon. The
"sci-fi" was of the 1940s vintage, and was fairly well done,
considering.  I don't recall the author's name except that it
was French, although undoubtedly a pseudonym for some hack in
Los Angeles.  If you liked Flesh Gordon, you'll probably like
"Yolanda", if you ever run across it.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/24/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It makes
a suggestion regarding Vader's origins.  People who are not familiar
with TESB may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1980 1941 EST
From: Bill Todd via <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subj:   SFL comments on Vader...

The obvious explanation of Vader's strange appearance is that he
is, in reality, an Orc.  Subsequent episodes in the SW saga will
doubtless capitalize on the spreading D & D mania...
                                                        - Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 DEC 1980 0649-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #176
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Thursday, 25 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:
            SF Books - Bored of the Rings & Xanth Trilogy,
   Future - Lazy Lawns & Telephone Numbers & Tea, SF Games - Magic,
                    Spoiler - A Midsummer Tempest
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 1146-PST
From: Alan at LBL-Unix (Alan B. Char (CC))
Subject: Bored of the Rings

I just finished reading the book, which was pretty funny, and
I noticed a couple of lines: "a plover's egg the size of an
emerald" and "an occasional spelunker".  Is this related to
the game "adventure" in any way, or are this just a case of
great minds, etc.?  Who first thought of comparing emeralds
to plover's eggs, anyway?

Also, on the subject of THE MAGIC OF XANTH, I'll take this
opportunity to yet again suggest that everyone go out and
read it.  It's hilarious!  Good fantasy, lots of character
and charm, great storylines, and most of all: a plentitude
of puns.  It's great fun to read.  It's been reviewed a
couple times in SF-L, and none of them have been bad reviews.
I haven't seen any "public" reviews, except the ones on the
book cover, and those were good, naturally.  The titles are:
A SPELL FOR CHAMELEON, THE SOURCE OF MAGIC, and CASTLE ROOGNA.
They are also available in paperback for people who aren't in
the bookclub.  --Alan

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 (Wednesday) 1026-PST
From: DWS at LLL-MFE
Subject: Anthony's Xanth trilogy  [ See SFL V2 #152 ]

The trilogy is Anthony's excuse to use every pun and play on words
that he's ever heard.  I wouldn't try approaching it as a "serious"
fantasy work, but it makes a welcome break from such readings.  The
plot(s) are fairly simplistic, but the settings and characters are
very well done.

The setting is the kingdom of Xanth, where each being possesses
one magical talent.  Xanth is rich with Centaurs, Harpies, Dragons,
(all intellegent with suitable personalities), and such nasties as
nickelpedes (like centipedes, but slightly larger).  Such problems
as "where do you hold on to a female centaur when riding" are posed.
Some of the humour tends towards the bawdy, but never gets out of
hand.

The trilogy is also \full/ of ammo for D&D types.

Happy Solstice. -- Dave Smith

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 1344-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Xanth trilogy

Xanth is on a par with most of Anthony's work.  It isn't as strange
as some (like the Kirlian (spelling?) trilogy, or the Tarot trilogy).
If you like bad puns you will probably enjoy the books, I did feel
that the third book was pushing the matter a bit.  For what the SF
book club gets for hard covers, it is hard to wrong with their
offerings.  Buy it, you might like it.

        steve z.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 (Wednesday) 2016-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Xanth review

  Xanth -- I read all three a few years back.  If you enjoy books
that are as much a plot (weak) as a collection of silly puns, you'll
enjoy these.  I liked the first, but they began to drag by the third.
Anthony has done better punning/writing, "Prostho Plus" for example.
 
             --Steve

------------------------------

Date:  24 December 1980 14:58 est
From:  Sibert at MIT-Multics (W. Olin Sibert)
Subject:  The Magic of Xanth
Sender:  Sibert.Multics at MIT-Multics

I recently read the first book of the trilogy, A Spell for Chamaeleon,
and, though I found it a bit heavy-handed in spots, overall, I liked
it.  For what it's worth, I liked it enough that I plan to purchase
the set.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 1547-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE  
Subject: ODDS AND ENDS FROM THE FEBRUARY ISSUE OF NEXT MAGAZINE

  Lazy Lawns.  The 3M Corp. of St. Paul, Minnesota, has developed
EMBARK, a product that is sprayed on grass in the spring, slowing
down its growth so much that you can mow your lawn as infrequently
as twice a year.  (now only available to commercial users, such as
golf-course caretakers)

   A phone number for life.  The number, says Susan Aames of Pacific
Telephone, would accompany you wherever you moved, much like your
Social Security number.

   Contraceptive tea.  Biochemist and Chinese herbalist Y. C. Kong of
Chinese University in Hong Kong believes he has found an herb that,
when brewed and drunk as a tea the morning after, wards off pregnancy.
His research on the herb is funded by a $300,000 grant from the World
Health Organization.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 (Wednesday) 2016-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Renewable mana

  ...concerning a renewable source of mana...  it seems possible,
that like energy, mana is neither created nor destroyed.  Rather,
it is moved from one place to another via magic.  So it would *not*
be possible for all the mana to disappear.  It *would* be possible
for a region to be temporarily drained of it.
  Consider a mage as a "packager of mana".  He is capable of
manipulating and controlling it, but cannot create nor destroy it.
If he (or she, for that matter) were to build a flying castle, he
would do it by "constructing" an anti-gravity field out of mana.
This would have the affect of draining the locale of mana, and
packaging it in some rocks.  If the castle were moved, so would
the mana.  And of course, when his packaging spell wore off or
was cancel|ed (by the magu's death?), the mana would be released
into the *current* environment....  entropy also comes into
question, as mana sources would tend to leak into mana sinks.
  ...or perhaps mana is converted into another substance, and
merely awaits the learning of mages as to how to convert it
back?  But this sounds like the old energy-matter equasions
coming back...)

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/25/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

   The following message is the last message in this digest.  It
   reviews Anderson's A Midsummer Tempest and explains the nature
   of its Shakespearean references with a spoiler.  People who are
   not familiar with this novel may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 0812-PST
From: URBAN at RAND-AI
Subject: Midsummer Tempest (with spoiler)

   The nature of the Shakespearean references in Midsummer Tempest,
aside from the literary imitation (much of the dialogue scans, key
scenes end with the dialogue in rhymed couplets, and Shakespeare-
like puns abound) lies in the fact that it takes place in a parallel
world in which W. Shakespeare wrote all the same plays...as factual
histories.  Thus, since clocks strike in Roman times (Julius Caesar)
technology must be somewhat ahead of our world, and so on.
   The revelation takes place in an inn, the Old Phoenix if I
remember, in which the hero meets the main characters from "Three
Hearts and Three Lions" and "Operation Chaos".  There are other
interesting types visiting the inn, too, but I won't spoil it for
you.

        Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 DEC 1980 0600-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-ML (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #177
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Friday, 26 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:
                 SF Games - Magic, TESB - Alternities
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PCR@MIT-MC 12/25/80 23:05:55  Re: mana...

If we want to look at mana usage as converting one form of energy to
another, then when a mage uses mana for a spell, the most likely end
result is heat, just like now. If that would be the case, than trying
to restore the mana would be like trying to un-burn coal.

                           ...phil

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/26/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It makes
another suggestion regarding Vader's origins.  People who are not
familiar with TESB may not wish to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1980 1030 EST
From: Steve Lionel via <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Will the real "Luke's Father" please stand up?

The long-standing (since May, anyway) furor about "Is Darth Vader
Luke's father?" bears a remarkable similarity to a recently-answered
question that tantalized millions around the world.  I am referring,
of course, to the musical question "Who shot J.R.?".  It occurs to me
that this may not be entirely a coincidence and that there is a case
to be made for saying that Darth Vader started out life as J.R. Ewing
and that Luke is the illegitimate son of J.R. and Kristin.  Consider
these items:

     J.R. is mean and evil, and happily destroys anything or
        anyone who gets in his way.
     It's only a small step from being "king of oil" to ruling
        the Galaxy.
     Darth Vader's current condition could have been caused by
        an explosion at an oil well J.R. was visiting.
     One of the proposed time-warps could have transported J.R.
        to that galaxy "a long time ago and far, far away".
     DV's helmet is merely another form of 10-gallon hat.
     Luke's being illegitimate would certainly bother his "uncle".

Can anyone come up with more evidence?  I must admit that I have only
seen two episodes of "Dallas", so I may not have all the facts.  I
also can't see why this mania about J.R. was so important to people
when questions of real importance were being ignored, such as "Would
Jessica live?".
                                Steve

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 DEC 1980 0825-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #178
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Sunday, 28 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:
                        SF Movies - Scanners,
     SF Books - Xanth Trilogy & Master of the 5 Magics & Yolanda
        & Unpleasant Universes, Humor - Gifts for all Seasons
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 1980 (Saturday) 1537-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: A query about the film "Scanners":

I had the inopportunity to see the trailer for a new SF-thriller
called 'Scanners' last evening.  Extremely bloody.  In any case,
does anyone know what this is about?  The billing reads 'Their
thoughts can kill!'  Is there any connection between these
scanners and the scanners from (is it?) Niven?  They had the
power to use their minds like guns.  I don't really recall where
the scanner term was used but Niven comes to mind (pun).

------------------------------

Date: 26 DEC 1980 1501-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Anthony's Xanth trilogy

  is a tolerable piece, if you don't mind lots of second-rate puns
and an overflow of magic that can only be described as "silly".  The
closest thing to it is one of L. Frank Baum's lesser-known works, THE
MAGICAL MONARCH OF MO.  The chief difference is that the Baum is a
group of short stories while the Anthony is 3 full- length adventure
novels.  The first and third of these are reasonable --- certainly as
good as his PROSTHO PLUS, namely mild entertainment with an acceptable
moral added subtly; the second gets rather wordy in describing the
source and causes of magic and digs a horrendous logical pit in doing
so.  I would be half-inclined to encourage purchasing the paperbacks,
which are now available as a boxed set, unless the book club version
is significantly cheaper, since the author gets more and the paper-
backs will last about as long (SFBC editions are made absolutely
abominably nowadays).

------------------------------

Date:  26 December 1980 23:05 est
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Master of the Five Magics

 Master of the Five Magics, by Lyndon Hardy.
 Ballantine Del Rey Fantasy paperback Oct 80. $2.25
 ISBN 0-345-27635-3

     This book was mentioned in an earlier SFL, so I read it.  It
was touted as "one of the most logical detailing of the laws of
magic ever to appear", so I bought it.  Save your money, and buy
Ursual K. LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy.  The story concerns one Alodar,
who, in quest of regaining his noble title, learns the fundamental
principles of all five schools of magic (thaumaturgy, alchemy, magic,
sorcery, and wizardry).  This gives him an advantage over those who
Master only one school, since he can use his powers in one school to
more easily work the spells of another.  All the laws are expounded
on the title page, one or two maxims per school.  Most of the laws
are familiar to us, and none are expounded in novel or unexpected
ways.  Meanwhile, the plot is your basic young-man-gains-power-
defeats-demons-withs-lady.  Ho hum.

------------------------------

Date: 26 DEC 1980 1509-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Yolanda

   Book two does indeed exist; the MITSFS copy may even have
arrived through normal channels, since our resident expert
(the world's greatest expert in SF porn) refuses to call it
SF porn or make a special search for it since it doesn't come
from a sleazy publisher. The author is called Dominique Verseau
(don't recall if a translator is mentioned); the second book is
YOLANDA: SLAVES OF SPACE.
  The book does indeed get its characters into a variety of
mildly sadistic positions (sorry); I didn't find it either
funny or particularly erotic, which put it a half-step down
from the first book (which occasionally succeeded in being
arousing).

------------------------------

Date: 26 DEC 1980 1532-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: grungy universes

      "If an author is going to go into all the trouble of
       creating a universe, which every author does, some more
       successfully than others, why put in evil or irritants?"

  The obvious answer to this is that very few people will find such a
universe believable --- and believability is the primary requirement
of a constructed universe.  I know that \I/ wouldn't believe in such
a universe outside of a children's fantasy; that's one of the reasons
I disliked THE PROBABILITY BROACH (see recent discussions) --- the
author just assumed that everything would work out for the very best
over 200 years of history.
  Certainly the failings of a universe help drive the plot.  Consider
Heinlein's description of how he writes a story: "I put interesting
characters into serious difficulties, and by the time I can hear them
talking the story is done." (quote >20 years old). I'll further point
out that if matters hadn't gone downhill from first book to sequel
neither WIZARD nor RINGWORLD ENGINEERS could be anything more than
\another/ travelogue --- and I'd rather travel myself than read
somebody else's rehashing of the same territory, however imaginary.
  If a character is not in some tight place, hir choices can be no
more significant than the choice of orange or grapefruit juice for
breakfast; it's only when penalties are attached to all possible
choices that the situation is interesting.  (David Gerrold described
this in his book on what was right and wrong with STAR TREK, saying
that the best episodes [with the possible exception of the two
comedies] could be summarized as "Captain Kirk has to make a
choice between
  -- Earth's history and the woman he loves
  ..." (can't remember the other examples offhand).)
One of the reasons I flatly state that A KNIGHT OF GHOSTS AND SHADOWS
is Poul Anderson's greatest book is the kind and degree of conflict
that Flandry faces: there are no longer obvious right choices, or
problems that can be gotten through with mere dash and ingenuity.
(This is also the reason I downrate his latest, A STONE IN HEAVEN;
the writing is acceptable but Flandry has neither dash nor choices.)
  Unfortunately, I would guess that a majority of fans agree with you;
I was appalled at seeing the Hugo given to THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE,
which is undoubtedly the best SF novel of 1954, when the technocrat
was supreme in SF.  Clarke has had at least some sense of social
context (witness the lead's argument and final decision to oppose
his own position and support a halt to killing whales in THE DEEP
RANGE), which is the only reason his work is still readable today,
but I would have put even ON WINGS OF SONG, badly constructed as SF
as it is, ahead of TFoP.  This would no doubt annoy Poul Anderson,
who in an disgusting breach of his usual courtesy casually declared
(in the foreword to NEBULA AWARD STORIES 4) that straight SF
adventure, preferably universe-spanning, was far more interesting
than the problems of a "sniveling faggot" (sic); I suspect that Sir
Bela of Eastmarch (Anderson's alter ego in the Society for Creative
Anachronism) would apply that term to many of us bookworm types
regardless of its literal truth or falsehood.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 1980 2204-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE  
Subject: Gifts for all seasons
 
Item #98666 CONTINENTAL DRIFTWARE  A completely matched set of
     tectonic plates.  Serves 12.

Item #59862 GIANT BIRD FEEDER Ust before the major automobile
     company that designed these high impact tubes went out of
     business, we bought the entire remaining stock:  5,000 of
     these 20-foot beauties, then we drilled openings at 4-foot
     intervals.  Now we offer them to bird lovers who have always
     wished they could feed the Giant Birds, but until now had no
     way to attract Golden Eagles, California Condors and Large
     Albatrosses.  Just fill up your Giant Bird Feeder with our
     special formula (3 parts seed to 2 parts dessicated fish
     bone) and watch those rare birds flock to your feeder miles
     away!  Isn't it assuring to know you can help keep one of
     the endagered species alive?  (Caution: feeder should be
     placed at least 40 feet from house.)
 
Item #74936 VOICE OPERATED DOORMAT  Plush doormat, available in
     wide range of colors, ask "Friend or Foe" when stepped on.
     If password is not quickly given, electrocutes unwanted
     visitor.
 
Item #551 A SOLAR ECLIPSE  Please specify duration and type (full
     or partial) of eclipse desired.  Prices vary according to
     season and latitude.  Write for details.  (NASA approved)
 
(From CARRION HOUSE'S World of Gifts)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 DEC 1980 0641-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #179
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Monday, 29 Dec 1980      Volume 2 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:
      SF TV - Dr. Who on in CA, SF Books - Unpleasant Universes,
                 SF Movies - Popeye, SF Games - Magic
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1980 17:46:27-PST
From: Cory.kalash at Berkeley
Subject: Dr. Who will be shown

Dr. Who will be shown in the San Francisco Bay Area on our public
broadcasting station KQED (channel 9) starting on Jan. 7 (wed) at
8:00. I understand that it is the current Dr., but I am not sure.
                                Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 28 DEC 1980 1414-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: grungy universes revisited

The choices, correctly quoted from David Gerrold's THE WORLD OF
STAR TREK (copyright 1973) p. 235, are:
  "...saving the woman he loves or allowing the past to be changed.
  "...risking his ship or saving Spock's life.
  "...being a diplomat or being a soldier."

  He credits most of the argument of this section to Gene
Roddenberry, whom he quotes on p. 220:
  "\Every/ story starts with a need.  A need for something to
happen or something not to happen.  That need must be closely
and deeply associated with the main character.  Perhaps he
needs a thousand dollars to pay off a gambling debt to keep
the mob from killing him.  Or perhaps he needs \not/ to have
himself placed in the electric chair tonight at 12:01 A.M. and
the switch pulled which will execute him for a murder he never
committed.  Whatever need you propound for the character in your
story, it is absolutely necessary that that need get more and
more pressing, also more and more difficult fo fulfill, as the
story progresses.  In a good story, you finally get the reader
or viewer clawing at the pages or the screen in his anxiety to
get fulfillment since he has become the hero and fells all the
jeopardy, frustration and agony which is building and building
toward the story climax.  When the need is resolved in the story
climax, the reader or viewer feels fulfillment."

  Certainly this is an excessive statement, but the frame of an
important idea is there and applicable in even the apparently
most cerebral work.  Why does Shevek [in THE DISPOSSESSED] leave
his home for the world his ancestors were political refugees
from?  Because he \needs/ to get away from political restraints
so ritually egalitarian that they interfere with dedicated
research!  And so on. . . .

  (Incidentally, Gerrold's book is, in its own way, fairly
penetrating in the few sections where he starts analyzing the
good and the bad about STAR TREK.  He also offers a sample
universal 3rd-season plot, "Green Priestesses of the Cosmic
Computer", which I swear would have been better than what
they ended up using for STAR TREK: THE MOTIONLESS PICTURE.)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1980 1126-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: grungy people and grungy universes

     As for me, conflict of all kinds is a most important part of
what I look for in a story.  This certainly includes good (or even
just "passable") vs evil, so I agree with Chip to that extent.  But
denigrating FOUNTAINS because it was a classic "engineer vs problem"
story seems to show an awfully limited set of preferences.  There
certainly is conflict in the "engineer vs problem" story; it's just
not "person vs person" conflict.  The real world (being neither evil
nor good) can interfere with the best laid plans, and this conflict,
and its resolution, can fascinate me for hours.  Similarly, social
systems pose conflicts, and stories than have people going up against
those systems pose conflicts that are not necessarily "good vs evil,"
but rather personal values vs values that are alleged to be
supra-personal.
     I can understand the feeling that a society that does not
create those conflicts must be, in some sense, artificial.  That
same feeling must exist for the kid who never lived outside the
South Bronx who is shown a book that takes place in Scarsdale.
The kinds of problems that exist in Scarsdale are both unbeliev-
able and uninteresting to the kid from the other environment.
This, however, does not make that environment and those problems
really unreal or universally uninteresting.  Somehow, the slum
kid has got to be shown that there are other worlds, before that
kid can deal with the problems of those worlds.  That's the way
comments that belittle stories with "societies that work" strike
me.  SF lets us look beyond the problems of our wretched little
societies to see that societies portrayed in books like the
Probability Broach are potentially real and interesting.  And
that's a major reason why I read SF.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date:  26 December 1980 21:14 est
From:  JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Star Wars and Popeye

I have recently seen the new movie Popeye and it, too, has similar-
ities to the Star Wars Saga.  In this movie Popeye (Robin "Mork"
Williams) searches for his father (Ray Walston - from "My Favorite
Martian") while battling Bluto.  Bluto, like Darth, possesses
fantastic strength, and has noisy breathing (he snorts and snarls
a lot).  Popeye, like Luke, suffers because of his disobedience.
Eventually the father and son combo defeat Bluto, but he escapes,
possibly for a sequel.  Perhaps the most significant difference is
that Olive Oyl (Shelley Duvall) is almost completely helpless, a
marked difference from Princess L.

The two main characters do a fine job of acting the way the cartoon
figures do.  Likewisee, the set looks like a cartoon set made of
real-world stuff, without looking like a cartoon.  The film suffers
from the presence of many inane, cloying songs, all by Harry Nillson.
The plot seems weak to me, but it does give the characters room to
act like the comic figures.  It could have been worse.

One minor irritant: there are numerous joking references to the
names of the characters.  This seems to violate some concept of
comedy naming - Popeye and Olive Oyl are deliberately given funny
names (in the comic) for our (reader's amusement) and the char-
acters in the comic world don't notice.

Two additional points: the movie opens with a self referential
Popeye quote.  I'm sorry they didn't incorporate the "Jeep"
into the movie.

------------------------------

Date: 26 December 1980 1216-EST (Friday)
From: R.Kamesh <Kamesh.Ramakrishna at CMU-10A> 
Subject:  Mana

Most descriptions  of  mana  that  I  see  in  fantasy  give  it  both
energy-like (conservation,  flow,  radiation,  etc.)   properties  and
entropy-like (order) properties.  One possible  model would be to  say
that mana is to entropy as entropy is to energy.  That is, just as you
can use free energy  to perform work and  induce order into a  system,
you can  use `free  order' to  perform  work and  induce mana  into  a
system.  So you  can transfer  mana from  one place  to another  while
transferring entropy between two other places.  This would account for
places where magic does  not work.  Its not  that they lack mana,  but
that they lack sources of disentropy.

From this  picture certain  laws  follow: no  magic in  an  isentropic
universe; both death  and life use  up mana; mana  can only  decrease,
even in open systems.

There is one possible physical interpretation: mana is the fundamental
source of  time flow  (not  the same  as  chronons).  Magic  works  by
speeding up local time.  Places that  lack mana are dead because  they
have reached the state that the rest of the universe will reach in the
far future.   Entering  a  mana-poor region  can  be  a  death-causing
experience as time flows  slower and slower.   Magicians who use  mana
are reducing the ability  of a region  to last out to  the end of  its
natural life.   If they  do not  find some  way of  getting mana  from
elsewhere, a  magician lives  a short  life and  kills everybody  else
around him as well.  Since  mana is necessary to  die, a few of  these
people will not  die.  They  become mana-vampires that  seek death  by
draining enough  mana from  other creatures.   However, they  have  so
deeply drained their  mana reserves,  and obtaining  mana by  drinking
blood is so wasteful of mana that  thet never ever get enough to  die,
but just to sleep for a few hours or nights!

When a large enough region is  completely drained of mana, it  behaves
like a black hole - no energy  can get out, nor can you determine  the
entropy of the system, and  time is extremely retarded.   Relativistic
time-dilation is a mana-sic phenomenon.  At the speed of light, system
uses up no mana at all; at FTL speeds it generates mana, but along  an
imaginary axis.  Imaginary mana can only be used for dreaming.  Dreams
are caused  by local  accumulations  of imaginary  mana that  must  be
drained.  Magical illusions similarly use  up imaginary mana.  One  of
the side-effects of the performance  of illusions is that people  stop
dreaming for a few days.  Note that imaginary mana can be generated by
tachyons and other particles while  real mana cannot be.  This  argues
that the world is becoming more of  an illusion day be day, and  could
well be why Heinlein's "The Number of the Beast" had to end the way it
did.

You can recognize  an illusionist  by the fact  that he  is a  nervous
wreck.  He hasn't  dreamt in ages  and his sleep  has been  dreamless.
The result is that he is full of problems that normal beings deal with
during dreams.  The  same is  true of story-tellers  and other  liars.
They drain imaginary mana.  SF  and fantasy writers in particular  are
walking drains.  One of the reasons why artists like to congregate  in
particular places is because  for unknown reasons  a lot of  imaginary
mana is generated there.

Let me stop here for now.  I thought about this some time ago and  was
really taken with the idea of imaginary mana and black holes.

                        Kamesh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 DEC 1980 0657-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #180
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest      Tuesday, 30 Dec 1980     Volume 2 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:
SF Books - Unpleasant Universes & Future History & Bored of the Rings,
        SF Radio - HGttG, What Happens at a Con? - Galacticon,
  SF Movies - Film Questions, SF Games - Magic, A Midsummer Tempest
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 DEC 1980 1232-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: the grungies?

  You miss my point about THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE; the "engineer
vs. problem" story is so limited a form (like the classic ghost
story, or the Lovecraftian horror story) that preferring it above
the wide variety offered by the other nominees is what shows "an
awfully limited set of preferences".  That's why I specifically
said tFoP was the best SF novel of 1954; before and immediately
after that time, that particular form was done to death.  Since
then, SF has immensely broadened its horizons; engineering
problems, though no smaller (have you seen (in the latest NEXT)
the plan to put a huge island off New York City near the edge of
the continental shelf?), are either soluble or not, while human
problems offer a huge array of possibilities (note how in tFoP
the one human problem (persuading the monks to allow the project
to begin) is solved by an engineering trick (causing a storm that
makes an ancient prophecy happen)).
  I like your South Bronx/Scarsdale comparison; its fulfillment
is one of the strong points of C. J. Cherryh's work ---- the
demonstration of the reality and importance of alien problems
confronting alien beings.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1980 1057-PST
From: WMartin at OFFICE
Subject: future histories

Hi!

I don't know if anybody remembers this, but, back a few months or
so, we had a discussion of various authors' future histories and
a suggestion of establishing a database to contain the correct
chronological sequence of books and stories which are all related
in some way to a coherent (or at lest intended to be somewhat
coherent) future universe or world.  Apropos of that, I just
happened to run across just such a chrononlogy, relating story
titles (and citing publisher) to the intended year (or century)
when it was (will be) placed.  This one is in the opening of "The
Earth Book of Stormgate", a Poul Anderson book containing some of
the Polesotechnic League stories.  It ties the Flandry stories in
with these (the Polesotechnic ones preceed the Flandry ones by a
few millennia). I was reminded of this by the recent reference to
a Flandry story here. 

Though the introduction to this list explicitly states that this
is NOT by Anderson himself and that he has not bound himself in
any way to adhere to it, it still is interesting.  Heinlein did
the same kind of thing some years back; I wish all authors would
do this.  (Good Grief!  Could you just imagine Asimov's?!?!)

A last note.  How is Poul Anderson's first name pronounced?  Is
it "pawl", "powell", "pool", or "pole" (or something else)?

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 28 DEC 1980 1420-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: BORED OF THE RINGS

  To the best of my knowledge, this book antedates the invention
of D&D (identified as 1974 by the latest DISCOVER) by several
years; I think it comes from that same manic period (in the life
of the Harvard Lampoon, which produced BotR) that produced several
remarkable magazine parodies and the loonies who went on to
establish the National Lampoon.
  I suspect that the comparison of precious stones to bird eggs
dates back well into the time when jewels were simply made into
smooth polished lumps rather than being faceted --- try NNNN B.C.

------------------------------

RVS@MIT-AI 12/28/80 04:03:30 Re: HGttG and Galacticon

     I happen to have a set of tapes of the first season of the
Hitchhiker's Guide.  Each season seems to consist of six episodes,
each approximately 25 minutes long.  There was also a 'bridge'
episode of about the same length.  I got these tapes from a
friend, and the audio quality is VERY good (stereo, not mono!),
and if anyone in the area (I live on campus at Caltech) would
like to listen to them, give me a call.  I will probably be
getting the second season tapes in a couple of months.

     News of Galacticon's cancellation, incidentally, did not even
reach the bride and groom (yes, there was going to be a real science
fiction wedding at the con) until the night before the first day of
the con.  Most people that arrived at the Bonaventure for the con
went to Anaheim for Loscon.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1980 0902
From: Larry Jones via <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Film digitization

I am far from an expert in the field but I have seen some examples
of digital type pictures (i.e. Viking, Voyager and magazine
preparation) and I believe that a minimum would be around 1 million
pixels per frame per color and at least four bits per pixel for gray
scale.  This works out to be 12 x 10^6 bits per color frame.  At 24
frames per second this would be a transfer rate of 288 x 10^6 bits
per second.  Current memory transfer rates for medium scale computers
are around 32 x 10^6 bits per second.  Magnetic tape storage technics
fall even farther from the required transfer rate.  It would take a
very expensive computer system to be able to handle digital images
at the required speed.

--Larry Jones

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1980 1437-PST
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: entropy and mana

If entropic is the adjectival form of entropy, doesn't that make
manic the appropriate adjective for mana?
        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 26 DEC 1980 1506-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST

   The use of iambic pentameter is just as Shakespeare used it,
namely in the speech of upper-class characters in upper-class
situations.  In the Old Phoenix, or when he's talking with Will,
there is no meter.  Anderson also ends many of the chapters as
Shakespeare ended scenes, with a rhymed couplet.  As I said in
a review for the Tech almost 6 years ago, the book struck me
as a gimmick that didn't quite come off, particularly since
the forced use of iambic got on the way of Anderson's own
skill with wordspinning.

------------------------------


DUFFEY@MIT-AI 12/29/80 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last message in this digest.  It comments
on the nature of the Shakespeare references in Anderson's A Midsummer
Tempest.  People who are not familiar with this novel may not wish to
read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 26 DEC 1980 1452-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST

  has only glancing references to the two obvious plays; in fact,
a point of the book (spoiler?) is that all the plays have \already/
happened --- Shakespeare is a historian rather than an independent
playwright.  (Bear in mind that this was written just \before/
"docudramas" started becoming popular.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Date: 31 DEC 1980 0726-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #181
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 DEC 1980 0726-EST
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V2 #181
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS AM Digest     Wednesday, 31 Dec 1980    Volume 2 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Bookstore SF Query & The Mysterious Asimov & Dhalgren &
        Future History & Poul Pronunciation, SF Games - Magic,
                SF Movies - Scanners & Film Questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1980 0850-EST
From: Peter Kaiser <PKaiser at BBND>
Subject: Help with new SF book section

A friend of mine has just been made manager of the SF books
section of a large non-chain suburban bookstore.  She's not
a SF person, and she came to me for help in deciding what
current titles she should stock.  Naturally I have my
prejudices, which I've made known to her, but now I come to
SFL with these questions: (1) What current titles should be
stocked?  (2) How can my friend decide what hardcovers to
stock?  (3) What titles should be kept in stock?

The whole basis of these questions is that the bookstore is a
general bookstore.  The SF section doesn't exist to service
SFanatics (they all come into the city to the better-stocked
SF bookstores), but for people who read \some/ SF, or who may
have heard of a particular book.

Responses directly to me, please, no later than January 9. If
anyone is interested in the results of this inquiry, send a
stamped, self-addressed net message....

---Pete

------------------------------

ACW@MIT-AI 12/30/80 07:39:20
Re: Asimov's "Authorised Murder"/"Murder at the ABA"

I know this two-titled book is not SF (not very, anyway) but I
have just read it, and it is so engaging and amiable a murder
mystery that I must recommend it heartily.  Of course I can
tell you nothing of the plot without being a spoiler, but even
people who do not usually read murder mysteries (I am one such)
are urged to try it.

And please, don't anyone else give away the plot.  The spoiler
warnings don't help: have YOU ever stopped reading SF-lovers
when you reached the spoilers?

    --- Wechsler

------------------------------

Date:  30 December 1980 18:37 est
From:  Benson I. Margulies at MIT-Multics
Subject:  DONT READ THIS IF YOU HATED DHALGREN

[  Don't read this message if you did not like Dhalgren.  ]

If, perchance, you are reading this, and would like to start an
informal discussion (no new mailing list on ITS) about all the
material Delany worked with, interpretations, etc., send me a
line. 

(Benson I. ) Margulies @ MIT-Multics

------------------------------

Date: 30 DEC 1980 1509-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: uchronologies

  The ones I've seen for Poul Anderson's universe place Flandry
and van Rijn less than a millennium apart, and rationalize this
quite well; I haven't seen the table in THE EARTH BOOK OF
STORMGATE so can't comment on it.
  The best description I've seen of the pronunciation of Poul is
"halfway between 'pole' and 'powl' ".

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1980 0941-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Poul Anderson pronunciation

According to Asimov, "There is a secret to the pronunciation of
Poul Anderson's first name that only Scandinavians know." ...
"I distinctly heard the pronunciation *he* gave it (a delicate
perversion of the vowel which must be heard to be believed) but
all I could come up with was 'Pole.'  Poor Poul gave up at last
with a smile of forbearance on his face and admitted that
everyone said 'Pole.' "

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1980 11:10 PST
From: Pugh.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Poul Anderson pronunciation

Shall we take a POLL? (yuk, yuk!)  I've mostly heard "pole" for
pronunciation of Anderson's first name.

/Eric

------------------------------

Date: 29 DEC 1980 1217-EST
From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: mana

But it's specifically stated in two of the three Niven stories
that death (at least violent death) \produces/ mana, and that
it is the exhaustion of mana in a particular area which causes
magical creatures (i.e., creatures sufficiently strange that
their metabolisms require mana to continue functioning) (e.g.,
centaurs, trolls, dragons, etc.) to die -- or at least to stop
functioning (apparently irreversibly, though Niven fudges this;
there's a scene in which a magic statue, which was built to
protect the city (though it hasn't actually been awake for some
time) speaks briefly to Warlock.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1980 14:40 PST
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: The Movie "Scanners"

I saw the film about a month ago at a screening by the Academy of
Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Films, here in LA.

The exploding-head trailer is a bit misleading.  The film is really
a suspense thriller about how a CIA-type agency tries to stop a group
of about a dozen people with psi powers.  These "scanners" had been
created when their mothers took an experimental drug during pregnancy,
some 25 years before.

The plot continuity was a bit thin, although the producer said there
would be some re-editing before general release.  Some of the special
effects were quite impressive, particularly the bulging veins as two
scanners try to kill each other with their psi powers.  And there are
some cute father-brother-son angles (shades of TESB!).

--Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 12/30/80 12:56 PM-EST
From: Byron Howes <decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley>
Subject: Scanners

I haven't seen header or trailer of "Scanners" (nor would I con-
sidering the description).  However, the concept of the "scanner"
definitely \not/ related to the film, comes from Cordwainer Smith
(Dr. F. Linebarger.)  You guys make me feel like an S-F antiquarian!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1980 1143-PST
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: movie digitization

 The resolution mentioned yesterday ( 1 Million pixels, 12 bits per
pixel ) is nowhere near the information content of a typical motion
picture frame, either spacially or in color resolution.

 The "original" frames for high-res computer generated pictures is
of the order of 10^8 pixels at 24 bits per pixel ( 10,000 x 10,000,
8 bits per color.)

 Even at this resolution, gigaflops of computation have to be invested
to squelch digitization artifacts (such as aliasing, false contours,
and rastering).

 Commercial work for use on TV and film is currently done at much
less than this resolution, but not because the lower resolution is
satisfactory; rather because it is economically "impossible" to
invest more than a few minutes of elapsed time per frame.  Consider
that if it takes 5 minutes per frame to produce film, it takes 2
hours elapsed time to produce 1 second of film.

------------------------------

Date: 30 DEC 1980 1738-EST
From: HEROT at CCA (Christopher Herot)
Subject: Film digitization

While 1 million pixels would probably be inadequate as a substitute
for 70mm theatrical projection, it is certainly within the realm of
moderately priced commercial display hardware.  Several companies
offer display systems in the $50K-$100K range which can refresh a
color CRT from a 1024x1024x12 bit (or larger) memory.  The required
memory speed is achieved through interleaving - word lengths of 128
bits are not uncommon.

How you get these pictures into memory in real time is another
problem.  There you are limited by the transfer rate of your
secondary storage device.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************