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Date:  2 Jan 86 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:

                  Administrivia - Happy New Year,
                  Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & A Request Answer,
                  Films - Books into Films & Young Sherlock Holmes,
                  Radio - Announcing CBC SF Radio Documentaries &
                          The Hobbit

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 86 08:27:02 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Happy New Year

        Well folks, here it is beginning of January and the start of
a new year of SF-LOVERS.  This past year has been hectic with a (I
believe) record setting total of 472 digests being sent out.  Our
mailer is gasping and wheezing but still hanging in there so I
expect to bring you lots more this year.  Possibly also a few
surprises.
        Let me take a moment to remind everyone of the wonderful
stuff in the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers:

   T:<Sfl>
 Archive.V1.1                           860 2200759
 Archive.V2                             771  1972324
 Archive.V3                             741  1895294
 Archive.V4                             705  1803432
 Archive.V5                             323   824576
 Archive.V6                             705  1804515
 Archive.V7                             232   591802
 Archive.V8                             670  1713235
 Archive.V9                             1468  3756676
 Down-In-Flames.Txt.1                   10 23119
 Drwho.Guide.1                          3 6789
 Galactica.Guide.1                      11 25925
 Hitch-Hikers-Guide-To-The-Net.Txt.1    36 90198
 Hugos.Txt.2                            6 14606
 Klingonaase.Txt.1                      3 6477
 Lost-In-Space.Guide.1                  17 41061
 Nebulas.Txt.4                          16 40386
 Outerlimits.Guide.1                    7 16093
 Prisoner.Guide.2;P777700               3 5796
 Sf-Lovers.Apr-85.1                     207 529673
   .Aug85.1                             379 967962
   .Feb-85.1                            266 679516
   .Jan-85.1                            231 589274
   .Jul-85.1                            307 783629
   .June-85.1                           353 902226
   .Mar-85.1                            214 546756
   .May-85.1                            302 771596
   .Nov85.1                             185 473511
   .Oct85.1                             252 644635
   .Sep85.1                             240 612857
 Star-Trek.Guide.1                      9 21405
 The-Enchanted-Duplicator.Txt.1         40 101058
 Twilight-Zone.Guide.1                  29 72906

        Files marked with an asterisk (*) are currently offline due
to space limitations.  If anyone wished these files they should
contact me. For those unfamiliar with Tenex/Tops-20, the first
number is the number of Tenex disk pages, the second is the number
of characters in the file, for checksumming purposes if you FTP the
file.  All of the online files are available via the ANONYMOUS login
of FTP.  Please folks, if FTP is unavailable to you do not ask me to
mail you these files.  I cannot do it.
     As a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be
added to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc.,
should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.  Submissions for the
digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.  If you use the wrong
address for the wrong purpose your message may get ignored.  Also,
please keep submissions to one topic.   That makes it a lot easier
for me to work with and it is easier for others to reply as well.
        And now I'd like to wish you all a healthy and happy New
Year and get back to the purpose of this digest mainly talking SF!

Saul

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE
Date: 21 Dec 85 12:59:21 GMT

How very thoughtful of Jeff Meyer to come so resoundingly to the
defence of Harlan Ellison.  Evidently he has more information about
the approach Ellison was taking to the Santa Claus TZ story than the
rest of us, since he sees fit to tell us how it was going to end.
You would think he would have at least headed his rebutal with a
spoiler warning message, in that case.

I see no evidence of TV shying away from difficult issues.
Therefore, I must conclude that Ellison's treatment was yanked not
because it discussed prejudice (hardly a taboo topic on the tube),
but rather because iwasn't worth wading through his ugly scenario to
get to his rather feeble moral.  Asking the question "Does Santa
Claus like blacks and hispanics?" just so he can answer "Yes"
hardly makes Ellison the new champion of civil rights.

Jeff then goes on to suggest that there is no difference between TV
accurately and movingly portraying the persecution of Jews and
Ellison writing a fantasy about a mean-spirited Santa Claus.  I
suppose Rod Serling would say that the only place where those had
anything in common was ...

   ... in the Twilight Zone.

:-)

RJS in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Cc: m15126%mwvm@mitre.ARPA
Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE
Date: 27 Dec 85 13:59:43 EST (Fri)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>

>>... terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and hispanic
>>children would have been put in some children's minds.  Even if
>>the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the mere
>>asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in prime
>>time.
>
>I don't buy this one bit.  I'm sure Ellison's episode would have
>ended with a clear and emphatic point that Santa Claus comes to all
>children.

That's the whole point!  It doesn't matter how the episode ends.
The problem with the story line is that it suggests that Santa
*might* be a racist.  The accusation alone is enough to do the
damage.  It's the same thing as if 60 Minutes does an hour-long
special on whether you're an embezzler or not.  Even if they
conclude that you're not, or announce that you've not been
convicted, let's see how long it is before you work on the payroll
project again.  If you're put on trial for raping a woman in an
elevator, and then found innocent, let's see how many women start
taking the stairs when you're around.  Note that we have to wait to
the end of the show to find out whether Santa is or isn't a piece of
disgusting slime.

Let's assume (incorrectly) that the kids watch the entire show and
see the saving-grace ending.  Are they convinced?  I don't know
whether they would be, do you?  Do you think they remember King Kong
making lunch out of the city so nice they named it twice, or that he
got killed in the end?  It's astounding how many monsters from
movies and TV -- who were killed at the end of their respective
shows -- are able somehow to come back to life and find their way
into children's closets (usually about bedtime).

>I'm getting very tired of the idea that even the suggestion of a
>bigoted or prejudiced idea, no matter how quickly refuted, will
>damage children irrevocably.

I agree with what you actually said here, but the problem with the
story line is *not* that the concept of prejudice is merely
presented.  (Indeed, prejudice is a fact of life and something that
we, as parents, need to deal with in raising our children.)  The
problem is that it presents an entirely new concept that Santa might
hold to these racial biases.

One, this needlessly attacks a pleasant and entertaining character
that's an integral part of many children's Christmas.  And two, for
many of those children who have bought into the Santa myth
completely, this might actually serve as a lesson that racism is OK!
("See Mom, Santa doesn't like those people either" ... an
unattractive scenario, made even more unattractive if "Mom"
knowingly chuckles, or openly agrees.)

>Do you believe that kids believe every single thing that someone
>says on TV?  I don't think so ...

You're right, they don't.  But ...

>... they watch the story, see what happens to (and with) the
>characters, and make judgements from there.

You obviously know nothing about the attention span of a four-year
old.

>Perhaps the question is whether TZ deserves a later time period; ...
and another ARPAnetter writes:
>Since when has TZ been a kiddy show?  If you are upset about kids
>viewing it, two solutions: move it later in the evening, present a
>notice about parental guidance is suggested.

Agreed.  And as much as some parents might opt for the later time
slot (so as not to have to explain to the kid why they can't watch a
certain show), I'm a parent that would rather see the parental
guidance warning.  That way, all the other TZ episodes are early
enough for my children to watch, and I can skip just this one.
(BTW, not a kiddy show?  I encourage my kids to watch TZ & Amazing.
I think they're much better than the usual TV palaver.  But this?
This would have been in incredible bad taste.  And rest assured that
*anything* about Santa at Christmastime is a kiddy show.)

>It's the same thing, in any media, if the viewers cannot discern
>between truth and fiction, should we ban that story? ...  If you
>are afraid some viewers cannot understand the difference then stick
>a disclaimer in the front.

The disclaimer is *not* needed because fiction is being presented,
or because bad things are happening.  It's needed because we as
parents need some indication when TV is about to do something that's
both out of line and out of character.

Dallas?  The A-Team?  All in the Family?  Those are fine because we
already have a general idea of what's on the show.  JR is a sleaze;
Archie's a bigot; the A-Team is into blowing up (notice that no-one
ever dies, though).  If I don't want my kids to watch Jeeps being
blown up, but then I let them watch the A-Team, that's *my* mistake.
But if I see Santa Claus come up, then Santa starts in on an Archie
Bunker imitation, whoa!  That's TV's mistake.

>We don't need screeds like RJS's which assume guilt.  RJS will have
>a wonderful time in Hollywood, I think they are looking for
>spineless irrationals.

Nah.  Really they're looking for courageous rational people who
close their arguments by calling people names.

Yours in user-surliness,
   Burgess Allison
   <allison@mitre.arpa>

------------------------------

To: Bob Guernsey <scgvaxd!bob@caip.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Re: Starlost... a novel?
Date: 26 Dec 85 10:18:57 PST (Thu)
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

The novel was "Phoenic Without Ashes" by Edward Bryant and Harlan
Ellison.  It was a novelization of the screenplay, which Ellison
also had a hand in creating.  He was so disgusted with the way the
TV series came out that I would be amazed if he ever wrote any
sequils, or even novelized episodes other than the pilot.  Sorry to
be the bearer of bad news; I would have been interested in seeing
how Ellison would have continued it also.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF movies
Date: 27 Dec 85 03:06:52 GMT

> From: ISM780!dianeh   (Diane Holt)
[Responding to a posting of mine.]
> CHARLY *better* than Flowers_for_Algernon??? Yuk!  The film wasn't
> bad, if you *don't* compare it to the book -- but once you do...
>
> PLANET OF THE APES was an abomination compared to the book. It's a
> typical Hollywood product -- "Hey, this sounds great...apes
> running the world and having humans as slaves...yeah, and we can
> tie in a Third World War at the same time...Great!" The book was
> subtle and intriguing and had *nothing* to do with our blowing
> ourselves up. Read it sometime.

Where in my posting did I claim that either of these films was
*better* than the book it's derived from?? The original comment that
I was responding to claimed that no good movie was ever made from a
good book. I listed examples that, in my opinion, showed otherwise.
PLANET OF THE APES was a good novel. PLANET OF THE APES was a good
movie. Whether either is better than the other is irrelevant to the
discussion at hand. Please read what I have to say before flaming.
        As for CHARLY, I beg to differ. The film was not as good as
the *short story* "Flowers for Algernon", but I still think it's
better than the novel version.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 85 11:59 PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: the glass man sequence (in Young Sherlock Holmes)
Cc: film@WHITE

>From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
>>(Well, I also liked the "glass man". :-)
>    ... If you mean the glass man special-effect, I agree.  It was
>the one most consistent with the plot. ...

This sequence was the most recent tour de force of the gang from
what used to be "the computer division of Lucasfilm" and is now (or
about to be) a separate company called "Pixar" (that being the name
of their graphics hardware product line).

Alvy Ray Smith, speaking in LA at a recent program of computer
animation sponsored by the Director's Guild of America, mentioned
the amzing statistic that there were about 50 texture maps involved
in the calculation of each pixel in the animation.

It went by before I could look closely, but I belive that at least
in one of the scenes, there is simulation of depth-of-focus.  The
glass man is holding his sword toward the "camera" and it can be
seen to be sharp at the tip, but appropriately fuzzy back at the
hilt end.  Yow!

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Announcing CBC SF Radio Documentaries
Date: 25 Dec 85 02:22:57 GMT

                     OTHER WORLDS, OTHER MINDS
                     A SCIENCE FICTION ODYSSEY

                   Three One-Hour Radio Programs
               of Interviews, Readings and Commentary

              Written and Narrated by ROBERT J. SAWYER

                      Produced by BERNIE LUCHT

         Monday, January 6, 1986:           ALIEN MINDS
         Monday, January 13, 1986:  MACHINES THAT THINK
         Monday, January 23, 1986:    STARS IN OUR EYES

       9:05 to 10:00 PM (9:35 to 10:30 PM in Newfoundland)

  On the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's IDEAS Radio Series

                       Among those heard:

        Isaac Asimov                 Shawna McCarthy
        John Robert Colombo          Judith Merril
        Samuel R. Delany             Frederik Pohl
        Thomas M. Disch              Spider Robinson
        Gardner Dozois               Stanley Schmidt
        Ursula K. LeGuin             Baird Searles
        Jon Lomberg                  Elisabeth Vonarburg

 All Canadians should be able to receive these programs, as well
 as most Americans living near the Canada-U.S. border.

[Moderator's Note: What follows was a large listing of all the CBC
radio stations which will be carrying the program.  The listing was
deleted due to lack of space.  If anyone out there is interested,
please contact the poster for the list of stations.]

Robert J. Sawyer [RJS]
Posted through the kindness of:
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 85 17:59:05 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Hunting for the Hobbit on tape...

Recently, my husband played for me a tape which he had recorded from
a radio broadcast of Nicol Williamson ("Excalibur"s Merlin) reading
the complete Hobbit.  Wonderful characterisation, with Beorn having
a strong Scots burr, Bilbo with a West Country (Dorset, Cornwall)
accent, the Dwarves sounding Yorkshire/Norse and Gandalf as a nasal-
twangy Oxbridge scholar.

Unfortunately, David's tape is not complete.  Where can we find this
recording these days?  Is it the set boxed in what looks like a salt
cod box that is available in some bookstores?  Is it actually a
record set rather than a tape set?  Does anyone know anything about
it?  Help?

Thanks,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jan 86 0921-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:

               Books - Chalker & Geston & McCaffrey &
                       Sexual Slant in Novels (4 msgs),
               Films - Warriors of the Wind,
               Radio - The Hobbit,
               Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Spirits of flux & anchor; Jack Chalker
Date: 26 Dec 85 19:08:27 GMT

cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes:
>I just finished _Soul Rider_.  I get the feeling that Chalker has
>one general idea and that's where most of his books come from.
>This has the usual people being thrown into an unfamiliar world and
>given very different physical forms than what they had before.
>Unfortunately, this was rather dry.  I could never identify with
>any of the characters and the conclusion was less than satisfying.
>The details of the worlds of flux were interesting, but unless you
>like to read special effects, this one is not worth reading.

I disagree. True, Chalker tends to have a single general premise :
people get transformed and adopt/struggle/survive. It's a familiar
idea to those who read Chalker : sex change(4 Lords of Diamond),
species change(Well World), mind swap (Identity Matrix), physical
change or mutilation ( Messiah Choice, Web of Chosen, others), body
change ( And the Devil Will Drag You Under). At the same time these
are only devices to create a situation which would be impossible to
create otherwise.

I have just finished "The Birth Of Flux and Anchor"(book 4 of Soul
Rider series) and I find the series very coherent and much more than
mere special effects.  It's a study in human depravity, warped
mentality and the meaning of wars and revolutions. There is a number
of infuriating and enraging things happening in the book (and in
real life) that can not be analyzed from a single point of view to
be understood. If only for showing how sometimes it's better to
leave things as they are (people suffer, etc) rather than destroy
them ( and kill millions of innocents in the process) these books
are worth a read.

And don't complain about a "less than satisfying" conclusion!
Chalker always treats the first 3 volumes of Soul Rider as ONE book!
YOu have NOT read the conclusion : it's in vol.3 - "Masters of Flux
and Anchor"!

And for explanations of how things started and how they work (what
is Flux?) -- read "The Birth of Flux and Anchor", book 4 of Soul
Rider (read it last in the series!).

Over all, I found it an engrossing and entertaining series of
books... As long as you keep in mind that the end of a chapter is
not the end of the story ;-)

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 29 Dec 1985 10:07:25-PST
From: redford%jeremy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John Redford)
Subject: Mark Geston

Re: Brian Ritchie's comments on Mark Geston

   I'm glad to see that Geston has another fan; his books are hard
to find.  "Out of the Mouth of the Dragon" is an old favorite, full
of memorably morbid scenes: the fighter planes decaying on the floor
of the cathedral, the taciturn outlanders in olive-drab tinkering
with their howitzers while the knights party in gay pavilions, the
Last Supper staged with skeletons in the desert.  I think the other
book that Ritchie mentioned was "The Lords of the Starship", which
is a little more common in the used book stores.

   There are two more recent books by Geston, "The Day Star" and
"The Siege of Wonder".  The premise of "The Day Star" is that there
is a succession of parallel worlds, connected by a mysterious road.
As you travel down the road the worlds become fuller and more
marvelous because they feel the corroding effects of the Time Wind
less and less.  The protagonist is born in the city of R, where the
Time Wind comes howling down the streets, destroying dreams and
dulling thoughts.  He makes friends with a strange old man who tends
a beacon up on the hill.  The beacon is there to protect the ships
of the final city, the city at the end of the road.  These ships
search the ocean looking for pieces of the Day Star, the shield that
will block out the Time Wind forever.  The boy and the old man find
their own piece of the Star and set out on the road to return it to
the final city.  A curious and evocative story.

   In "The Siege of Wonder", magic and science have been battling
for centuries.  Magic relies on some people's ability to exploit
parallel worlds.  The science side has discovered this too, and is
slowly gaining an edge.  A spy with a video eye is sent over to the
magic side, and loses his loyalties.  Not up to "The Day Star" or
"Out of the Mouth of the Dragon", but worth reading.

   Does anyone know of other books by Geston?  Does anyone know
anything about Geston himself?  I've never seen him at cons.  His
books are dark and melancholy, but worth looking for.

John Redford
DEC-Israel

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 85 23:12:00 PST
From: <lars@acc.arpa>
Subject: KILLASHANDRA by Anne McCaffrey

While Christmas shopping, I came across a (new) hardcover by Anne
McCaffrey titled KILLASHANDRA. Anne McCaffrey is "the lady with the
dragon books", none of which I have ever read, because I'm not
really into cute fantasies; but several years ago I stumbled over a
review of "The Crystal Singer" in some feminist magazine (Savvy ?)
at a friend's house, and it made me pick the books up and I loved
it. I read the crystal singer as the story of someone who has a very
special relationship with her job; she loves it even though it
consumes her totally, and finally will destroy her. I think many
programmers feel that way about their job.

So anyway; this a sequel to "The Crystal Singer", and it is good.
The best hint I can give without getting into spoilers is that the
flavor is a lot like Asimov's Robot Mystery stories. And for a fan
of classic Asimov like myself, that's a pretty hot recommendation.

If you can afford hardcovers, by all means get it now!

Lars Poulsen
Advanced Computer Communications
<Lars @ ACC.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: hlexa!hsf@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Friedman)
Subject: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 27 Dec 85 16:29:38 GMT

Recently I bought an sf novel from the Quality Paperback Book Club,
Samuel R. Delany's "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand."  The
book club's blurb had read something like: "drama of life, death and
sexuality in the distant future."  The problem I have with this is
that the ad didn't disclose that the "sexuality" was predominantly
gay sexuality.  Despite some features of interest, I stopped reading
the book about half way through, when it became evident that just
about all the romance and sex was to be gay.

Upon opening the cover, I had noted that Delany had also written
"Dhalgren", which I HAD enjoyed (because of its unusual dreamscape
development), even though much or most of the sex in that was also
gay. (My only real annoyance was when the hero said something like,
straights who won't engage in bisexual affairs must have a
mean-spirited streak.)

Now, I'm not saying that I couldn't enjoy ANY novel with a gay
theme, any more than I'm saying that gays wouldn't enjoy any
straight novel.  But, if the novel isn't "great literature," an
important component of one's enjoyment is usually the ability to
identify with the major characters.  This leads to my questions (at
the risk of getting flamed as homophobic, etc.):

1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance
   is predominantly straight or gay?  (I don't think this would be
   necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels
   about social/political oppression.)

2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have
   mattered to me?

3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's
   sf writing has a gay slant?

4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club
   advertised the book?

5) Was the book such a work of creative genius that it transcended
   such considerations?

Henry Friedman

------------------------------

From: bu-cs!awc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Cannon)
Subject: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."
Date: 28 Dec 85 22:56:00 GMT

>to identify with the major characters.  This leads to my questions
>(at the risk of getting flamed as homophobic, etc.):
>
>1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance
>   is predominantly straight or gay?  (I don't think this would be
>   necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels
>   about social/political oppression.)

  This is only my opinion (that applies to everything I say here);
it makes no difference to me whether the sex in a novel is straight
or gay, unless I'm looking for pornography. In that case, I'd like
to know the sexual slant (that's usually not hard to figure out from
the cover).  I too, read "Stars in My Pocket...", and I was
indifferent at the sex scenes, but they did not significantly affect
my reaction to the book. I put it down halfway through because it
was a ponderous, unreadable mess.  I don't believe that the
sex/romance was the major theme.

>2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have
>   mattered to me?

  There's no "should". If you dislike gay (or straight) sex, I can't
think of a compelling reason NOT to mention the type of sex on the
cover of a novel.  After all, the box any appliance comes in tells
you what color the thing is... :-) Publishers, though, are not
likely to identify novels in this manner because they hope to sell
them to *everybody*. (If anyone has a good reason for disguising the
sexual slant in a novel, please correct me.)

>3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's
>   sf writing has a gay slant?

  Since it doesn't seem likely that it would be labeled as having a
gay slant, I guess it's your responsibility to either discover or
remember that Delany writes about gay characters.

  BTW, I met Samuel Delany at a S. F. Writer's of America party a
few years back (he tells everybody to call him Chip). We talked for
a while, which was a real thrill for me, because he's one of my
favorites. He's a very warm, friendly person.

>4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club
>   advertised the book?

  Maybe. Send them a letter, asking why the sexual bias wasn't
specifically mentioned. I'd guess that either they wanted people to
buy it who wouldn't if they knew the kind of sex in the book, or
they wanted to show they don't discriminate against gays, or both.
Or maybe they just reprinted what Delaney's publisher sent them,
without reading the book. If it's important to you, ask them to
include sexual slant in ads in the future; maybe they'll do it.

>5) Was the book such a work of creative genius that it transcended
>   such considerations?

  Jesus Christ, no! However, there is another book by Delany, "The
Einstein Intersection", in which the sex is straight, gay, and
hermaphroditic (something for everybody! :-) ) which I think is
worth reading even if you dislike sex which isn't of your
persuasion. The mood Delany creates in that one is fascinating.

Alex Cannon
Boston University

------------------------------

From: well!rooter@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Mavrogeorge)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 30 Dec 85 05:38:34 GMT

Congratulations on experiencing what gay people do everytime they
read the great "classics" of our time.  I suppose for some sexual
orientation labeling might be appropriate but would so much better
if you could learn to celebrate others sexuality.  Sort of like when
I read most novels which contain abundant depictions of
heterosexuality -- I dont fint it particularly exciting but
certainly interesting -- and I certainly wouldn't stop reading the
book because it had too much heterosexuality in it.  If the
depictions were exceedingly graphic I might stop but because of the
explicitness not the sex of the participants.  No, I don't accuse
you of being a flaming homophobe.  Yours was a honest question.  I
might suggest tthat you read the "20 questions to ask a
heterosexual" that were previously posted.  You may be close to a
consciousness raising - go for it!!

------------------------------

From: bbncc5!sdyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 30 Dec 85 03:03:39 GMT

I think Christine Robertson (globetek!chris) said it as well as
anyone could.  Actually, I'm glad this guy brought Delaney's book
up, because I just purchased it, taking a chance that I remembered
its mention a long long time ago here on net.motss.  On the other
hand, I wasn't SURE that this was the book, and given my aversion to
SF in general, and the fact that the cover really didn't say much
about its "orientation", I was afraid myself that I would have to
wade through (shudder) pages of straight sex as well as SF writing!
:-) Talk about being cheated out of $3.95!

Steve Dyer
dyer@harvard.harvard.edu
harvard!dyer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 85 14:54:39 est
From: Joe Turner <cutter%umass-boston.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Warriors of the Wind

sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu writes:
>What do you mean that no storyline was left out?  The whole
>explanation of why Xandra (I much prefered the name NAUSICAA)
>thought she could do any thing to prevent the war was left out.
>The cut material shows that Xandra can telepathically communicate
>with the giant bugs.

When I said ``left out'', I meant that they did not alter the plot
or change the storyline. They did not edit for plot, they edited for
time.

Throughout the film, Nausicaa (Xandra) is shown to have a
relationship with the giant bugs that is *definitely* not normal.
What is more, the climax of the film does not depend on whether or
not she can communicate telepathically. All the bugs care about is
that she has returned the young bug, and they realise that she is
basically a cool dude.
                                                Joe Turner
Joe Turner
329 Ward Street, Newton Centre MA 02159
(617)/969-5993
cutter@UMASS-BOSTON.csnet
ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Hunting for the Hobbit on tape...
Date: 27 Dec 85 19:32:30 GMT

lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU writes:
> Recently, my husband played for me a tape which he had recorded
> from a radio broadcast of Nicol Williamson ("Excalibur"s Merlin)
> reading the complete Hobbit.  Wonderful characterisation, with
> Beorn having a strong Scots burr, Bilbo with a West Country
> (Dorset, Cornwall) accent, the Dwarves sounding Yorkshire/Norse
> and Gandalf as a nasal- twangy Oxbridge scholar.
>
> Unfortunately, David's tape is not complete.  Where can we find
> this recording these days?  Is it the set boxed in what looks like
> a salt cod box that is available in some bookstores?  Is it
> actually a record set rather than a tape set?  Does anyone know
> anything about it?  Help?

   The recording you heard was from a record set available from Argo
Records, and as far as I know, it's still available.  The salt cod
box version is a set of cassettes from the National Public Radio
broadcasts, and I can't vouch for it's quality, having never heard
it.  The same people (NPR) also did a complete Lord of the Rings,
available in a larger box...

Mike Farren
uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618

------------------------------

From: prism!jib@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 26 Dec 85 19:36:00 GMT

Although a color version of the cage obviously DID exist when the
Menagerie was produced, it has since been lost.  Rodenberry has a
full copy of the cage, but it is a black & white print.

The preceding is based on statements made by Rodenberry at Trek
cons.  Perhaps Paramount will find a copy hidden in a basement
somewhere.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jan 86 0943-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:

          Books - King & Sexual Slant in Novels (2 msgs),
          Films - The Lensman & Enemy Mine & Books into Films,
          Miscellaneous - Children Believing What They See

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Dec 85 10:06 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: King

The Running Man by Stephen King (alias Bachman)

Best of the Bachman Books and, to my knowledge, King's only real SF.
But when is the borrowing of an idea theft?  That's been bothering
me ever since I heard about this story.

Okay, the story is set in a future world where people risk life and
limb for money and prizes on televised game shows.  Our hero is a
contestant on a show where he must run from hired killers.  Much of
his flight is televised and viewers can phone in to inform on our
hero, and let the killers know where he is.

The above describes both The Running Man and "The Prize of Peril" by
Robert Sheckley.  There's also some similarity in plot to King's The
Long Walk and Sheckley's "The People Trap," too, but that's not as
pronounced.

Now, the rest of the plot is different. Sheckley's is an idea short
story, a logical developement of that initial idea, with viewers of
the game show also helping the contestant.  King's is a black novel,
set in a 1984 style world, where everyone is out to get the hero,
including all the law-inforcement and government folks.  It makes
less sense, but it's much more scary which is, after all, what you
expect from King.  But it still seems to me that King must have
gotten the idea from the Sheckley short story and it bothers me that
no acknowledgement to Sheckley was given.

Lisa

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."
Date: 30 Dec 85 17:41:55 GMT

>1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance
>   is predominantly straight or gay?

The Science Fiction Book Club routinely puts warnings on books with
material that that might bother some of its readers. They don't
describe it explicitly beyond 'violence' or 'sexual themes' but it
is enough to warn away readers sensitive to this kind of stuff (and
attract the rest of us...)

How do you tactfully warn readers of 'gay' or 'straight' sex?
Remember, the ads are read by everyone and so the ads have to be a
LOT more conservative than the books they advertise (Warning: this
book may be offensive to midget negro eskimos with a Dr. School
fetish?)

I suggest, rather, that you read the various reviews out there --
Tom Easton in Analog, A.J. Budrys in Fantasy & SF, the group from
Locus, and track your reactions to books they review to the way they
review it. If there is questionable material in a book, someone will
mention it (I think A.J. talked about the sex in SIMPLGOS). Even
more important, you'll start finding people who either like the
things like like all the time, or hate the stuff you like all the
time. Either way, when you learn how to read the critics, you can go
a long way towards figuring out what books to read and avoid.

Sometimes, for example, I find I prefer running into a critic that
hates the stuff I like. 9 times out of 10 I find that when Gene
Siskel pans a movie, I'm going to love it. This doesn't mean he's
wrong, it just means his tastes are different enough from mine to be
a good indicator for me. That is the primary job of a critic, I
feel.

> I put it down halfway through because it was a ponderous,
> unreadable mess.  I don't believe that the sex/romance was the
> major theme.

I don't think it had a theme. I made it about 2/3 of the way
through, personally, before I put it down because I simply didn't
care what happened...

>2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have
>   mattered to me?

Everyone finds things that bothers them. Whether it 'should' or not
is beside the point. I found some of the themes in 'Courtship Rite'
by Kingsbury to be intolerable, personally. Everyone has sensitive
spots.

>   There's no "should". If you dislike gay (or straight) sex, I
> can't think of a compelling reason NOT to mention the type of sex
> on the cover of a novel.

I disagree. How is the publisher going to know what is going to
bother/offend every one of their readers? That is more the purpose
of the critics, I think.  We definitely want to avoid what the
record industry is getting into...

> After all, the box any appliance comes in tells you what color the
> thing is... :-) Publishers, though, are not likely to identify
> novels in this manner because they hope to sell them to
> *everybody*. (If anyone has a good reason for disguising the
> sexual slant in a novel, please correct me.)

Well, if the color is blue, I might agree..... One good reason why a
publisher might not want to sell to 'everybody' is because a good
percentage of the 'everybody' (also known as the great unwashed)
would probably try to burn some of the books... Just ask Vonnegut

>3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's
>   sf writing has a gay slant?

What if it was your first exposure to an author? Again, learning to
trust a good critic helps you locate new authors and avoid others.

>4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club
>   advertised the book?

>   Maybe. Send them a letter, asking why the sexual bias wasn't
> specifically mentioned. I'd guess that either they wanted people
> to buy it who wouldn't if they knew the kind of sex in the book,
> or they wanted to show they don't discriminate against gays, or
> both.

Writing and asking about their policy might not be a bad idea. There
may be a discrimination aspect to it, but I doubt it. More likely,
they are only reacting to previous complaints about ANY sexual
slant.

>5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended
>   such considerations?

no. I think it was a great attempt at a seminal work that didn't
quite succeed.

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo)
Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."
Date: 31 Dec 85 14:50:30 GMT

Disclosing sexual bias in a book?  Advertising its sexuality?  Hey,
what is this?  It sounds like some looney project from Andrea
Dworkin or some other political crazy.  Apply any of these
recommendations to books "slanted" to heterosexuality (god forbid!);
the result would be clearly perceived as off the wall, AND obnoxious
by more than a few readers.

Why do publishers have any economic interest in "advertising" the
book's sexuality?  They'd probably lose money if they adopted such a
policy.  After all, you DID buy the book, even if you didn't read
all of it.  With your objections, knowing its "sexual slant" in
advance would have meant you wouldn't have made the purchase in the
first place.

I find the allusion to a kind of "truth in advertising" idea applied
1) to sexual matters; and 2) to what is though of as a minority
orientation, really offensive.  And it smacks of puritanism.

Finally, it betrays a lack of knowledge of publishing: publishers
are legally free to put anything they like on book covers; not even
the author has ANY control over what goes on them.  The disclaimers
being suggested are not only utterly irrelevant to publishing
practices, they imply a warped kind of public service at odds with
what publishing houses see as effective and appropriate cover
advertising.

Given the superficiality of many readers' aims, positive deception
is valuable in LURING readers into buying and reading books.  Think
of how many of the classics of world literature have to be
"marketed" to get people to consider looking at them at all.
Nowadays, the way to do it is to turn the book into a teleplay for
Masterpiece Theater with lots of production value and famous actors.

So, since when has honesty been a policy in publishing?  Why should
it be?  Who wants it to be (certainly not propsective readers!)?
Book covers (& their art, from Frank Frazetta to David Hockney) are
SUPPOSED to be hype, deceptive, literarily irrelevant, complete
facades.
                                Ron Rizzo

------------------------------

From: nmtvax!wildstar@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Lensman in Video
Date: 29 Dec 85 21:56:47 GMT

     Does anyone know if some movie producer plans to translate the
Lensman series (by Doc Smith) into a series of motion pictures? Or
if Marvel or DC plan to render it in comic form? I think it may be a
nice thing to see.

Very Truly Yours,
Andrew Jonathan Fine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 85 08:21:17 est
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: Review:  Enemy Mine (no spoilers)

I still remember reading 'Enemy Mine' in IASFm ten or so years ago.
I agree with whoever it was that said it's probably the best thing
Longyear ever wrote.  Although it has the problem of his other works
that the idea is not new (Longyear admits that he took the plot from
a movie - 'Hell in the Pacific', I believe was the name - about an
American and a Japanese stranded on a Pacific island during WWII),
and although it employs tried-and-true heartstring pullers, it
successfully walks the line between sentiment and sentimentality.
In the movie,'Enemy Mine', many of the story's details have been
changed, mostly to make it more action-oriented, but the changes do
not violate the spirit of the story (in contrast to the changes in
the movie 'Dune', for example).

'Enemy Mine', the movie, is a good, old-fashioned tear-jerker, just
like the novella.  While it does not contain the fanatical attention
to special effects detail that characterizes, for example, Lucas's
Star Wars movies (worst gaffe that I noticed was too-transparent
molten metal - obviously colored water), neither does it lapse into
the teeth-gritting cuteness of, say, E.T.  (E.T.  gets drunk, E.T.
gets dressed up in girl's clothes), as it could easily have done.
It is rated PG13, due to the clear and frequently articulated
cursing that goes on (mostly sh*t), and to a couple of gory scenes.
I took my five-year-old to see it, and during the goriest moments I
wished I hadn't, though in retrospect I don't think he understood
what was going on in them; he left the theater happy, and talked in
'Drac' all the way home.  A seven or eight-year-old might well be
bothered more.

My only objections to the movie are the occasional lapses in special
effects, and the fact that it's not intrinsically an sf story.  In
spite of those flaws, it was well done.  I enjoyed it, and recommend
it.  On a scale of -4 to 4, I give it a 3.

Carol Morrison

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 31 Dec 85 05:51:00 GMT

boyajian@decwrl writes:
>Where in my posting did I claim that either of these films was
>*better* than the book it's derived from?? The original comment
>that I was responding to claimed that no good movie was ever made
>from a good book. I listed examples that, in my opinion, showed
>otherwise. PLANET OF THE APES was a good novel.  PLANET OF THE APES
>was a good movie. Whether either is better than the other is
>irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Please read what I have to
>say before flaming.
>        As for CHARLY, I beg to differ. The film was not as good as
>the *short story* "Flowers for Algernon", but I still think it's
>better than the novel version.

I read what you had to say; I understood the issue at hand.
Comparison to the original was *not* irrelevant. If a film (or book)
is *based* on a book (or film), then a comparison to the original
form is inevitable -- otherwise, all you have is two separate
entities sharing a common title, but little else. In that case, you
can't say that a good book has been *made into* a good film; all you
can say is, "That's a good film. There's also a good book with the
same title."  The issue at hand was good books that had (or, in the
original poster's opinion, hadn't) been made into good films.
PLANET OF THE APES was a schlock film because it deviated so
drastically (and tragically) from the original, with absolutely no
good excuse for doing so. It turned a perfectly good story into
Hollywood-pulp.  They did a convincing job on the makeup, and that's
about it.

As to CHARLY, it's just a matter of opinion, since they didn't
deviate enough from the original to have that as a basis for
criticism (but I still think that whole bit with the motorcycle gang
was crap), but *I* happen to think that the book was better -- so
there, nyah.

Now I'll offer an example of a film that I think was better
(although there are probably people who would say just as good and
probably some that would say not as good) than the book: BEING
THERE. Jerzy Kozinki's book bored me to tears, but the movie was
really touching: simple, elegant, and beautifully done. You see, I'm
not a "never has a film lived up to the book" fanatic. I simply
disagreed with two of your examples.

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780!dianeh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 85 11:56 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Children believing what they see on TV

From previous SF-LOVERS issue:

>From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer)
>tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
>>As a professional writer, I abhorcensorship.  However, there is a
>>great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of
>>good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television.
>>True, Harlan was the writer in question, but producer De Guere,
>>actor Asner, whoever they selected as director, and the
>>programming mavens at CBS all would have had to live with the fact
>>that the terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and
>>hispanic children would have been put in some children's minds.
>>Even if the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the
>>mere asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in
>>prime time.
>  Do you believe that kids believe every single thing that someone
>says on TV?  I don't think so -- they watch the story, see what
>happens to (and with) the characters, and make judgements from
>there; the story usually directs them in their conclusions,

My observations are that *most* children up through age 5-6 believe
everything they see on TV unless they are specifically told that
something is not real.  (That includes cartoons, news, movies, etc.)
Even at age 7-8, *many* children have trouble relating what they
have been told about one program to another similar (but different)
program.  (i.e.  they have trouble drawing analogies.) There are
exceptions to the ages (in both directions, of course!) because the
extremely bright pick up on somethings faster than others, just as
the slower children might not (or at least differently).

But, of course you *knew* I would respond to your comment when you
wrote it...right?

Of course I believe parents should watch TV and talk to their
children, which allows me to be more liberal in my censorship
attitudes.  But, *we* the public have allowed and/or encouraged the
FCC, DOD, Government (what-ever-you-want-to-call-it) to takeover our
parental (pet peeve number XXX!) responsibilities, instead of us
(parents) saying no to our children!
                                  Roz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 86 1037-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jan 1986       Volume 11 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:

                Books - Anthony & Chalker & Foster &
                        Title Requests Answered (2 msgs),
                Films - Books into Films &
                        Title Request Answered (2 msgs),
                Television - Star Trek,
                Miscellaneous - Multi-volume Works

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) <rick%essex.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 24-Dec-85 12:02:21-GMT
Subject: Triple Detente

I suppose it's time to put in my two pennyworth from the UK...

Triple Detente was Anthony's ninth novel, after:
        Chthon
        Sos the Rope    )       Recently reissued in one volume, the
        Var the Stick   )       title of which eludes me, but which is
        Neta the Sword  )       currently in UK bookshops
        Omnivore
        Orn
        Macroscope
        Prostho Plus
And was published by Sphere in the UK, though is undoubtedly out of
print by now. To quote from the flyleaf:

(quote) First published in GB by Sphere Books Ltd 1975
Copyright Piers Anthony Jacob 1974

A portion of this book is derived from the novelette "The Alien
Rulers" appearing in the March 1968 issue of Analog (endquote)

My copy has ISBN 0 7221 1199 1 . I would be happy to provide a
spoiler plot resume if anybody wants one.

Rick Blake.

------------------------------

From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Spirits of flux & anchor; Jack Chalker
Date: 31 Dec 85 09:12:45 GMT

oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes:
>>I just finished _Soul Rider_.  I get the feeling that Chalker has
>>one general idea and that's where most of his books come from.

Indeed.  He often uses his particular kinky sexual fetishes as
"hooks" since it seems there must be a certain amount of eroticism
in a story for it to mass-market well.  However, the plotlines,
without the kinks and the exploration of wierdness, are often quite
interesting as an investigation of an alternative culture, even if
they don't quite work.

>And don't complain about a "less than satisfying" conclusion!
>Chalker always treats the first 3 volumes of Soul Rider as ONE
>book! YOu have NOT read the conclusion : it's in vol.3 - "Masters
>of Flux and Anchor"!

I rather disagree with this.  Although Chalker always hopes for a
trilogy, in this case the publishers made him stretch out a book
that seems like it was a single long novel.  This is an irritating
trend, and it sure looks to me like it wrecked the crafting of this
story.  There are rough edges, the characters aren't consistent and
lots of them seem to be introduced as "cardboard character type 4a"
for a particular use, then discarded as soon as he's done with it.

>And for explanations of how things started and how they work (what
>is Flux?) -- read "The Birth of Flux and Anchor", book 4 of Soul
>Rider (read it last in the series!).

Definitely.  The book stands by itself and is very enjoyable.  In
fact, if you would rather, just read it alone and ignore the other
three, if you find that you can't stand the thought of yet another
trilogy.

Hutch

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: VOYAGE TO THE CITY OF THE DEAD by Alan Dean Foster
Date: 30 Dec 85 15:59:59 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "Irritating Horseye! Many worlds of the Humanx Commonwealth
  boasted of "natural wonders", but Horseye was truly unique--the
  planet had the most spectacular river valley anywhere in the known
  universe and was home to three alien cultures.

  The fascinating planet just cried out for proper study, and after
  months of impatient quarantine Etienne and Lyra Redowl had finally
  received permission to begin a voyage of exploration to the source
  of the River Skar, a mere 12,000 kilometers Upriver.

  Old hands at cracking new planets, the Redowls studied the aliens,
  languages, took local guides, and provided for emergencies. But
  nothing could prepare them for the awesome treachery of the
  natives or the unbelievable natural obstacles. And not even the
  natives understood the planet's deepest secret..."

For a change, the jacket summary is completely accurate! The Humanx
Commonwealth is one which Mr. Foster has used in many other novels,
but it isn't a major part of this book.

The story mainly concerns the journey of the Redowls up the river,
their xenological and geological research along the way, their
dealings with guides from two of the planet's intelligent life
forms, and their relationship with each other. The technology they
employ is not especially far advanced-- their boat, hand weapons,
etc. seem quite reasonable.

I was very impressed by the way the main characters came across.
Their marriage is wearing a bit thin, and they frequently employ
sarcasm against each other, just like in real life! And yet there
remains a core of caring and commitment.

I enjoyed the book. It never got especially exciting, but it never
got dull either. I give this one 3 stars (very good).

Duane Morse
...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane  or  ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) <rick%essex.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Monday, 23-Dec-85 17:20:38-GMT
Subject: The Night Land

>[From Ray Racine @caip.rutgers.edu]
>This is another I need to know about book which has haunted me for
>a few years now. It's an old book which was reprinted in a series
>of old time classics under Lynn Carter, who wrote the introduction.
>The authors last name started with an H. ( Hamiltion ??)
>
>The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the future.
>The hero dreams his way there, I think.  All of humanity has taken
>refuge in a large pyramid of light and only a few hundred remain
>with fewer almost daily.  Outside of the pyramid is evil in various
>incarnations.  I distinctly remember one was "HE-WHO-WATCHES-IN THE
>NORTH" in the shape of a huge crouching monstrosity which never
>moved, yet constantly drew closer and closer.  There are other
>capitalized evils in the east, west, ect... as well as other
>smaller evils which roamed freely.  Absolutely everything was dark
>in the book, no sun at all, the entire atmosphere was something
>straight out of Edger Allen Poe.

The book you're thinking of is 'The Night Land' by William Hope
Hodgson.  It was originally published in 1912, and reprinted as part
of the series of classics by Ballantine in the early 70s. This
series also included 'The Well at the World's End' by William
Morris, and 'The King of Elfland's Daughter' by Lord Dunsany.

The story is everything you say, particularly as to the impression
of all- pervading evil and the whole taking place in Stygian
darkness. The hero has a telepathic awareness of another outpost of
humanity, so sets out from the pyramid to discover it; he believes
himself to be close to his goal at the end of the first volume.

I have yet to discover a copy of the second volume!!  If anyone out
there knows where I can obtain one, PLEASE PLEASE tell me!

Rick Blake.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 85 06:28 CST
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: More Re: Pyramid Power

Robert Firth believed the title of the book to be _Siva!_ by
>>(Ithink)<<J & L Richmond.  More correctly, I believe the story to
be _The Lost Millenium_ by Walt & Leigh Richmond.  The story centers
around an Atlantean scientist(biologist), his creations (man, fauns,
etc.), their power source (using lasers to establish a current path
between the upper atmosphere and earth ground thereby tapping the
difference of potential between the two).  At the equator and places
near the equator, Egypt, Ankor Wat, Mexico, etc.  (locations of
pyramids) the effect was self-damping.  Some bright boy tried to do
it at the Pole.  The effect did not die out and a shift in the
earth's axis of rotation occurred causing a giant flood.  The
survivors took off for Mars (I think) but not before the Atlantean
Scientist had released his creations on the earth.  The story ends
with the possibility/probability of the Atlantean's return based on
20th century archeological findings.

Robert L. "Steve" Stevenson
DOET@AFCC-2

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  2 Jan 1986 09:09:34-PST
From: wood%gaea.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste Wood)
Subject: movie better than story nomination

> 2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film
> done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the
> only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want
> to add new nominations? [...]

I would like to include the remake of "The Thing" in the list.
Granted, "Who Goes There?" is a short story and not a novel, but I
think the movie should be nominated as an excellent _change of
medium and even better on screen_ example.

The original movie, considered a classic, is atrocious in its
treatment of the story it claims for basis.  The remake, I thought,
was excellent in transfering mediums.  Sure I missed the thoughts
of the characters in the short story, but I thought the remake stuck
to the story very well, kept the detective work visible, and used
some of the most vivid story scenes, thus partially redeeming
Hollywoods ability to absoletly mutilate stories.

I think "The Thing" shows what a wonderful job Hollywood can do if
they really set their minds (and budgets) to it.

I believe a lot of people don't like "The Thing" because 1) it is
not pretty, 2) it is depressing, 3) leans toward horror, and 4)
they've never read the story.

Celeste Wood
ARPA: nermal%wood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 Jan 86 21:42:20-EST
From: "Jim McGrath" <MCGRATH@OZ.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Query: Silent Running

>From: ugjohna%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY (John Arrasjid)
>The earth is overpopulated and there is no more plant life, so huge
>space greenhouses are built that grow plants and small animal life
>for food, and produce oxygen to bring back to earth. There are
>little robots that work on the station in addition to a small human
>crew. In the end, one of the crew decides to commit suicide by
>blowing up all the pods of the green house.
>
>... I think the name was began with the word "Silent".

The film is "Silent Running."  However, I do not believe that the
plants and animals were kept in the pods (greenhouses in space) to
supply food and oxygen for the earth.  Rather, they were a form of
"life bank," preserving plants and animals that no longer were
allowed on earth.  Also, then ending was not prompted by a desire
for suicide, but rather rebellion.  The authorities were going to
decommission (destroy) the pods (probably so that they could use the
spacecraft for better things), and one crewman rebels in order to
"save the wilderness."

The film is noted for its "environmentalist" attitude, music by Joan
Baez, and special effects by Doug Trumbull (sp?).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 Jan 86 11:18:40-PST
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: The name of that pre-1975 movie with huge space greenhouses

It is "Silent Running," and was made in 1971.  This was Douglas
Trumbull's ("2001" and "Close Encounters" special effects)
directorial debut.  The screenplay was written by Deric Washburn,
Michael Cimino and Steven Bochco; the movie starred Bruce Dern,
Cliff Potts, Ron Rifkin, and Jesse Vint.  The score for the movie
was written by Peter Schickele of PDQ Bach fame.

Lynn

[Moderator's Notes:  Thanks also to the following people who
contributed similar information:

Brian Utterback ({cca!ima,ihnp4}!inmet!ada-uts!brianu)
dave (butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM)
Kevin LaRue (kevin%bizet.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM)
Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Frederick M. Avolio (decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu)
Jim White (JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU)
]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Dec 85 09:30 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek Videocassettes
To: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU

Actually, Paramount has, to date, released 28 tapes of episodes, one
of which was the two part episode "Menagerie."  That's 26 first
season, 2 second season.  The third set included:

20 "The Alternative Factor"
23 "A Taste of Armageddon"
24 "Space Seed"
25 "This Side of Paradise"
26 "Devil in the Dark"
27 "Errand of Mercy"
28 "City on the Edge of Forever"
29 "Operation: Annihilate!"
33 "Who Mourns for Adonais?"
34 "Amok Time"

Note that 21, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and 22, "Return of the
Archons" both first season episodes, have not yet been released.  In
case you don't have a complete list of episodes, numbers and
seasons, they are:

First Season:                      41 I, Mudd
01 Cage                            42 Trouble with Tribbles
02 Where No Man Has Gone Before    43 Bread and Circuses
03 Corbomite Manuever              44 Journey to Babel
04 Mudd's Women                    45 A Private Little War
05 Enemy Within                    46 Gamesters of Triskelion
06 Man Trap                        47 Obsession
07 Naked Time                      48 Immunity Syndrome
08 Charlie X                       49 Piece of the Action
09 Balence of Terror               50 By Any Other Name
10 What Are Little Girls Made Of?  51 Return to Tomorrow
11 Dagger of the Mind              52 Patterns of Force
12 Miri                            53 Ultimate Computer
13 Conscience of the King          54 Omega Glory
14 Galileo 7                       55 Assignment: Earth
15 Courtmarial                     Third Season:
16 Menagerie                       56 Spectre of the Gun
17 Shore Leave                     57 Elaan of Troyius
18 Squire of Gothos                58 Paradise Syndrome
19 Arena                           59 Enterprise Incident
20 Alternative Factor              60 And the Children Shall Lead
21 Tomorrow is Yesterday           61 Spock's Brain
22 Return of the Archons           62 Is There in Truth No Beauty?
23 Taste of Armageddon             63 Empath
24 Space Seed                      64 Tholian Web
25 This Side of Paradise           65 For the World is Hollow...
26 Devil in the Dark               66 Day of the Dove
27 Errand of Mercy                 67 Plato's Stepchildren
28 City on the Edge of Forever     68 Wink of an Eye
29 Operation: Annihilate!          69 That Which Survives
Second Season:                     70 Let That Be Your Last
                                      Battlefield
30 Catspaw                         71 Whom Gods Destroy
31 Metamorphosis                   72 Mark of Gideon
32 Friday's Child                  73 Lights of Zetar
33 Who Morns for Adonais?          74 Cloudminders
34 Amok Time                       75 Way to Eden
35 Doomsday Machine                76 Requiem for Methuselah
36 Wolf in the Fold                77 Savage Curtain
37 Changeling                      78 All Our Yesterdays
38 Apple                           79 Turnabout Intruder
39 Mirror, Mirror
40 Deadly Years

Lisa

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: trilogies and other multi-volume works
Date: 31 Dec 85 21:24:27 GMT

> Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines 'trilogy' as
> follows:
>    a series of three dramas or sometimes three literary or
>    musical compositions that although each is in one sense
>    complete are closely related and develop a single theme
> By this definition, neither THE LORD OF THE RINGS nor THE BOOK OF
> THE NEW SUN is a trilogy or tetralogy.  Rather, these are single
> stories published in multiple volumes.  ...

And, of course, the so-called FOUNDATION trilogy also was not one.
It was a series of NINE closely related stories that happened to
fill three volumes of the size then considered convenient.  (The
first one was written especially for the book publication, and the
others had appeared in order in Astounding or Analog, whatever it
was then called.)

Mark Brader

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 86 1057-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jan 1986       Volume 11 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:

               Books - Feist & McCaffrey & Robinson &
                       Zelazny & A Request,
               Films - Lensman (2 msgs) & Young Sherlock Holmes &
                       Enemy Mine,
               Television - The Prisoner,
               Miscellaneous - Sexual Slant in Books (3 msgs) &
                       Multi-Volume works

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: MAGICIAN, by Raymond E. Feist---and sequels?
Date: 3 Jan 86 02:02:12 GMT

Recently I bought a paperback entitled `Magician: Apprentice'.  It
turns out that this is Book I of II concerning one Pug, Magician's
Apprentice, his companions, and the events during his rather unusual
apprenticeship.  Both books are part of a larger tale, `The Riftwar
Saga', comprising also the stories `Silverthorn' and `A Darkness at
Sethanon'.

I have since discovered that Doubleday had printed as a single
edition books I and II of Magician in hardback in 1982, and in trade
paperback in 1984---fortunately, as Book II, `Magician: Master', is
not yet available in its Bantam Spectra mass market edition; and I
dislike leaving a tale unfinished.  Well, this brings me to a
question: In the back of the trade paperback edition, I find the
words `Watch for Silverthorn, the sequel to Magician, coming soon
from Doubleday'; and in the front cover of the paperback edition,
dates are listed for neither Silverthorn nor A Darkness at Sethanon.
I would like to know whether these are in print and by whom:
Publishers do not always print books that are `coming soon'.

For the tale itself has thus far been very enjoyable.  I have
reached only as far as the end of Book I, but on the strength of
this much alone I already seek the full Saga.  If you know more of
the availability of the other stories, send me *mail* (unless you
are jayembee and wish to inform the world).  I offer my thanks in
advance.

As to the story itself I will say little.  I do not wish to generate
spoilers, and I have not read enough for a review.  But I will say
this: A more accurate depiction of Elves you are unlikely to find in
print anywhere: Tolkien rather glorified us; and his information was
largely historical.  Almost I might suspect that Mr. Feist knows
more of us than we might wish.  But I am getting off the subject.
Read the book.  It is well worth it.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton)
Subject: Re: KILLASHANDRA by Anne McCaffrey
Date: 2 Jan 86 10:03:55 GMT

> Anne McCaffrey is "the lady with the dragon books", none of which
> I have ever read, because I'm not really into cute fantasies.

Anne McCaffrey's dragon books are much more than "cute fantasies."
She creates rich, fascinating worlds. And her characters --
including her dragons -- are full of life and full of tension.

I'm glad to hear that there's a sequel to CRYSTAL SINGER. I enjoyed
it too.

David Dalton [ihnp4!burl!gladys!dalton]

------------------------------

Subject: Spider Robinson and Antinomy
Date: 03 Jan 86 16:09:47 PST (Fri)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        While it is true that Antinomy is now a rare book ( the
publishing house folded while the first edition was being printed ),
the book itself is not of great value.  This is due mainly to that
fact that it is a paperback, and also due to the fact that the
stories in it are now being printed elsewhere.
        If you are a completist like myself, the book retains a
certain senti- mental value.
        The other Robinson first edition that is hard to find now is
paperback Time Travelers Strictly Cash. The first edition has a typo
in the title page.  There you will find written 'Tiime Travelers
...'.  If you can track Spider down long enough to have him
autograph it, he'll sign it 'Spiider Robiinson'.
        Another one edition paperback short story collection you
will never see outside the hands of a lucky few is Niven's 'Shape of
Space'.  It had one printing in 1969, and ain't been seen since.
All of the stories therein can now be found spread among the pages
of 'Tales of Known Space', and in 'Convergent Series', so it's not
as if the stories are lost.  But, again, it is nice to have a copy
just for kicks.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  2 Jan 1986 09:30:45-PST
From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (I've been meaning to put that
From: off for weeks now!)
Subject: DREAM MASTER

I've read both the novel and novella versions, and I have to agree
the ending's a bit ambiguous...

     **standard spoiler warning if you haven't read the story**

I suspect you're right in that the Knight dream at the end signalled
Render's own therapy.  The novella gave a much stronger suggestion
than the novel that he was *not* going to recover, but was far from
specific.

As for why Eileen did what she did to him, that's easy.  It's what
Render had been warned of all along.  She was strong-willed, and he
was attacking a very basic element of her psyche.  She couldn't
control the tendancy to take over, under stress.  She had already
freaked out briefly, several times, during the early stages.  Render
had convinced himself they were now "safe", however, and let down
his guard.  That, combined with the much more extreme nature of her
shock, in the final grand-and-glorious transition to the real world,
was too much.  She went over the edge and he, caught up in the
therapy, went with her.

Dave Butenhof
ZKO2-3/K06
Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062
clt::butenhof
butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-clt!butenhof

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 85 06:28 CST
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: A Title Request

I would like to knopw if anyone out there knows the other two titles
of a trilogy in which one of the title is _A Dark Star Passes_.  It
concerns a group of young scientists (one of the names is Morrey
(sp)) their inventions and inter-galactic exploits.  I am afraid I
don't remember the author either.  Any help would be appreciated.

Robert L. "Steve" Stevenson
DOET@AFCC-2

------------------------------

From: mordor!jtk@caip.rutgers.edu (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Lensman in Video
Date: 3 Jan 86 06:59:46 GMT

>     Does anyone know if some movie producer plans to translate the
>Lensman series (by Doc Smith) into a series of motion pictures? Or
>if Marvel or DC plan to render it in comic form? I think it may be
>a nice thing to see.
>
>Andrew Jonathan Fine

There is a Japanese animated film called "Lensman", which is
obviously based on the Lensman books because all of the names are
the same: Kimball Kinnison is the hero, the evil leader is Boskone,
etc.  The Lens is a wrist-worn jewel with telepathic powers.  Even
the place names are used.  However, the plot has nothing whatsoever
to do with that of the books, and with some exceptions (Worsel IS a
flying dragon) the characters, places, etc. bear little resemblance
to their namesakes.  Good Japanese animation (by my modest standards
:-)), worth seeing for amusement, but NOT a translation of the
books.

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Lensman in Video
Date: 3 Jan 86 21:49:29 GMT

    There is a series of plastic model kits from Japan based on
Lensman characters and situations.  I believe (but have no real
evidence) that these come from a Japanese animation of at least some
of the Lensman stories.  I think the original stories were
sufficiently cartoonish that this might work pretty well...

Mike Farren
uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 1986 15:35:44 PST
Subject: glass man in YSH
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

>From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
>It went by before I could look closely, but I belive that at least
>in one of the scenes, there is simulation of depth-of-focus.  The
>glass man is holding his sword toward the "camera" and it can be
>seen to be sharp at the tip, but appropriately fuzzy back at the
>hilt end.  Yow!

You're right: they did simulate the depth of field of the camera
lens so that the computer graphics would melt right in --- they used
distributed ray tracing (It also should have motion-blurred the
image, but it's hard to tell)

john platt
platt@cit-20
cithep!cit-vax!platt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 86 12:23:19 est
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: Addendum to Enemy Mine Review

After reading Mark Leeper's review, I thought I'd better add that we
missed the beginning of the movie, when the ships crashed, so I
couldn't say whether or not that was the worst special effect.

Also, who had the stuffed tail(s)?

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  3 Jan 1986 15:23:49-PST
From: mccutchen%erie.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. Terry McCutchen 289-6808)
Subject: The prisoner (and No. 6)

Sorry to put this in VERY LATE. This show was made as the "Fifth"
man of the Philby/Maclean/Burgress ... spy ring (Real World British
Intelligence) was being "found". I have frequently believed that
Number "6" refered to a mythical "sixth" man.

Terry McCutchen

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 30 Dec 85 21:19:40 GMT

hsf@hlexa.UUCP (Henry Friedman) writes:
>1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance
>   is predominantly straight or gay?  (I don't think this would be
>   necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels
>   about social/political oppression.)

Only if you are a prude or a homofobe. Sex is sex, romance is
romance; if you enjoy reading about "straight" sex without feeling
"naughty" or guilty you you should be able to enjoy a love story
about two(?) individuals regardless of their sex.  What DOES irk me
is sex between alien species....

>2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have
>   mattered to me?

I don't see why... Sex is sex....

>3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's
>   sf writing has a gay slant?

Only if you object to homosexuality getting "equal time".

>4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club advertised
>   the book?

No. It's like objecting to not mentioning any demonic, satanic,
pagan, magical subject matter.  It sonds like PMRC's record labeling
system. And we all know how silly that is ;-)

>5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended
>   such considerations?

Don't know, have not read it (yet?).

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton)
Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."
Date: 31 Dec 85 11:23:51 GMT

> Recently I bought an sf novel from the Quality Paperback Book
> Club, Samuel R. Delany's "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand."
> The book club's blurb had read something like: "drama of life,
> death and sexuality in the distant future."  The problem I have
> with this is that the ad didn't disclose that the "sexuality" was
> predominantly gay sexuality.  Despite some features of interest, I
> stopped reading the book about half way through, when it became
> evident that just about all the romance and sex was to be gay.

I too bought this book from Quality Paperback Book Club after I read
the blurb. I knew something about Delaney, but there's another clue.
If the blurb were referring to straight sex, it would say "life,
death and sex." Straight sex is sex, I guess, and gay sex is
sexuality.

Now that I've been flippant, I also have a more serious point: Why
do you read? Especially, why do you read speculative fiction? As
someone else mentioned, the point of sex in fiction is not sexual
stimulation of the reader, except in pornography. If a character in
fiction is a whole character, then the character probably has a
sexuality. If our reading is diverse, and if our writers are
diverse, then surely we will find diverse sexualties. It seems odd
to me that a reader of science fiction would accept aliens of every
stripe and color and yet balk at a gay human. "Warning: Some
characters are gay" is every bit as silly as "Warning: Some
characters are green."

I was acutely bored by "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" and
put it down after about 100 pages. Other science fiction/fantasy
writers have done better with gay characters, particularly Elizabeth
Lynn. Gay characters are amazingly prevalent in science
fiction/fantasy. I recommend for those interested a book by Eric
Garber and Lyn Paleo, "Uranian Worlds: A Reader's Guide to
Alternative Sexuality in Science Fiction and Fantasy," G.K. Hall &
Co., Boston.

------------------------------

From: hpda!on@caip.rutgers.edu (Owen Rowley)
Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."
Date: 2 Jan 86 18:59:25 GMT

>rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes:
>Disclosing sexual bias in a book?  Advertising its sexuality?  Hey,
>what is this?  It sounds like some looney project from Andrea
>Dworkin or some other political crazy.  Apply any of these
>recommendations to books "slanted" to heterosexuality (god
>forbid!); the result would be clearly perceived as off the wall,
>AND obnoxious by more than a few readers.

I am glad that someone finally has pegged this argument for what it
really is.  Homophobia is so common in our existence that it can
often pass as honest inquirey.

>I find the allusion to a kind of "truth in advertising" idea
>applied 1) to sexual matters; and 2) to what is though of as a
>minority orientation, really offensive.  And it smacks of
>puritanism.

Some people buy books for the purpose of expanding their store of
knowledge and their realm of experience.  Science Fiction in
particular is supposed to stretch our imaginative abilities. Would
we consider it a prejudice if this gentlemen had said these
characters are all chinese or all black, I don't want to read about
them!? You bet we would.

Owen Rowley
hpda!on

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: Trilogies: Not necessarily the author's choice.
Date: 2 Jan 86 19:53:53 GMT

There's been some discussion on the net lately concerning the value
of trilogies, ranging from "Gak! Another trilogy!"  to "Hot dog!
Another trilogy!"

Just to throw another factor in: The author of a tale doesn't
necessarily say, "Hmmm. I think I'll write a(nother) trilogy."
Quite often it is the editor or the publisher who decides, and
either contracts the writer to produce a trilogy, or takes an
existing submitted manuscript and splits it into thirds (or halves,
or quarters, etc.) because the tale is a loooong story and for
business reasons splits it into three inexpensive books rather than
one costly book.  This is done in spite of (or because of) the fact
that the three books total price will exceed the price of the costly
book. For example, my _The Iron Tower_ would have cost about $20 had
it been published as a single hardback, but as a trilogy, at $11.95
per book, it costs a total of $35.85.  In paperback, it costs $8.85
($2.95 per book) compared to about $6.00 had it come out as a
single.

So, in my case, because the editor chose to split a 250,000 word
manuscript into thirds, my single story was published as a trilogy.
Frankly, even though I'll make more royalty bucks with a trilogy,
I'd rather it had come out as a single book (as was done in the
German translation).

In the case of my second manuscript (180,000 words, _The Silver
Call_), my editor has split it in two...  Hence, it is a duology.
Again, my choice would have been to put it out as a single book.

Sigh.

Dennis L. McKiernan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jan 86 0856-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jan 1986       Volume 11 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Russell,
                 Miscellaneous - Waves in SF & The Titanic &
                         Sex in Books (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 1986  13:21 EST (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Brokedown Palace

        Well, it seems pretty obvious that BP is in the same world
as Jhereg/Yendi, consider: in BP, Faerie is to the west, and is
always covered by clouds.  So is Dragaera.  In fact, while I didn't
think about it until I read BP, the Empire does fit the classic
description of Faerie: Always twilight, the "people" are immortal
(by Human standards), amoral, tall, slender, have pointed ears, and
no facial hair.  In other words, the first two books give a nice
description of "Faerie" from the inside, Brokedown Palace gives the
description from the outside.  We finally get to see just how the
"Easterners" perceive Drageara.

------------------------------

From: ittvax.ATC.ITT!dann@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan Neiman)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 3 Jan 86 20:04:38 GMT

Mark Ellingham writes :
>       I just picked up a copy of Steven Brust's latest novel,
> "Brokedown Palace."  It's published by Ace.  The printing date
> inside says January 1986.  I haven't had a chance to read it yet,
> but here's what the blurb on the back says:
>
> ....  Just thought I'd let all the SKZB fans out there know.
> This sounds like it might be a lot of fun to read.

             *******    (Spoilers ahead!...)  *********

Well, I thought it might be fun to read too.  Basically, I was
wrong.  It's hard to pin down exactly what's wrong with "Brokedown
Palace".

Style:

   The first chapter or so of BP seems to be an attempt to emulate
the style of a Zelazny novel.  Nothing wrong with that, except that
it doesn't really work.  Most of the novel is written in the rather
simplistic style of a Grimms Fairy tale.  To heighten the effect,
there are various interludes describing the folklore of Brust's
mythical kingdom.  Most of the interludes are entertaining enough
but irrelevant to the main story.

Characters:

The biggest flaws seem to be the characters.  They seem to sort of
drift around for most of the book.  The reactions of all the
characters to almost any event is to sit around and discuss it.
Motivations for most of the events are pretty slight.  ("You really
think I should kill the Goddess, Bolk?  OK, might as well...).

The hero, Miklos, starts off the book in fairly bad shape, having
been beaten nearly to death by his brother, Laszlo, King of Falerria
(sp?), for a minor provocation.  Miraculously healed and befriended
by a talking horse, Miklos drifts off to the land of Faery for a
couple of years for no better reason than that he has nowhere else
to go.  He's not pissed at his brother, he's not out to usurp the
kingdom, he's basically sort of a lump.  Two years later, Miklos
returns.  Now he's got the Power, but he's still a nebbish.  Does he
do anything with the Power?  No, not really.

The character Laszlo is particularly inconsistent.  He's willing to
kill a brother for criticizing the state of repair of a bedroom, but
shrugs off the treason of his captain of the guards because he's a
good officer.

Plot:

Well, what there is of it concerns the decay of the ancestral palace
and the attempts by Miklos to do something about it. (Purposely left
vague for those who haven't read the book yet.)  There isn't a lot
here to get excited about as the reader doesn't really care a lot
about the royal palace of Falaria.

Still, there are good things about the plot.  Most significantly,
there's no evil wizard or Sauron-type baddie who has to be offed in
the last chapter.  On current fantasy, this is a sizeable
recommendation.

Cover/Blurb: Probably the most significant reason why I didn't care
for BP is that the blurbs on the backcover led me to expect
something substantially more lighthearted.

Recommendation:

Brokedown Palace is *really* light reading without a really
satisfying conclusion.  On the Leeper scale, probably a 0 out of 4.

dann

------------------------------

From: 3comvax!michaelm@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: story request
Date: 3 Jan 86 03:18:28 GMT

>From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
>Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", but
>the other sounds like a story by Poul Anderson.  I don't remember
>the title, but it can be found in a collection of his stories
>called, "7 Conquests."

The article that the above is a reply to has unfortunately scrolled
off our system, so I'm not sure what was actually requested, but a
story involving "obs" was the novel *The Great Explosion* by Eric
Frank Russell.  A resurgent Earth is attempting to bring back into
the fold hundreds of colony worlds which had been settled during a
great dispersal of cultures and peoples to the stars centuries
before (hence the title of the book).  The story relates the
adventures of a spaceship dispatched by Earth to visit four of these
lost colonies.

One of the worlds/cultures visited was feudal, I don't recall what
the second culture was like, while a third was inhabited by nudists.
The fourth world, however, was inhabited by the cultural descendants
of Mahatma Gandhi, who during the Great Explosion had established an
anarchistic society based on nonviolence and civil disobedience.

The people, who as I recall called themselves "Gands," didn't use
money as such, substituting instead a socially enforced system of
personal obligations (or "obs").  A person acquired obs by accepting
goods and services, which were "free," but which one must eventually
repay in order to continue as a member in good standing of society.
If a person didn't repay his obs, people eventually stopped feeding,
assisting, or cooperating in any way, leaving exile the only option.

When the empire-builders from Earth arrived and inevitably collided
with this society, the results were "interesting," to say the least.

Another, fascinating look at a functional anarchistic society is, of
course, Ursula K. LeGuin's wonderful novel *The Dispossessed*.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
(415) 960-9367
..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Waves in science fiction.
Date: 2 Jan 86 22:57:36 GMT

ins_amap@jhunix.UUCP (Mark Aden Poling) writes:
>...  The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to bring
>human values and attitudes into what had previously been very
>Machine oriented fiction.  This of course meant that surrealism was
>prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published then.

??? Surrealism was an art movement of the early 20th century that
attempted to free the workings of the so-called subconscious. Art
(whether painting, sculpture, literature, etc.) that is surrealistic
is characteristically dreamlike and presents objects and events out
of context; it attempts (as I understand it) to unlock or touch the
subconscious by destroying the normal chain of associations that we
have when we look at something. Thus the famous painting (was it by
Man Ray?) of the pipe (smoking) labelled "ce n'est pas une pipe"
(i.e., "this is not a pipe"). I hardly see what surrealism has to do
with the New Wave's attempt to bring human values and attitudes into
'hard' SF. Certainly some New Wave authors occasionally used
techniques that had a surrealistic flavor (a lot of J. G. Ballard's
work has this flavor, to my way of thinking) but the movement was
not primarily a surrealistic movement IN INTENT.

>...  (By the way, the story I sent to F&SF nine weeks ago, "Dream",
>is *still* in limbo!

Way back in my days as a would-be writer, I recall waiting much
longer than nine weeks to have some pieces returned to me. F&SF
probably has a BIG backlog of stories to wade through. I'd usually
wait three months before following up on a submission, and then I'd
send a friendly "oh by the way" type note.

>... What I'm wondering is this; do people, as in humans, change
>over time?  If so, what is the nature of the change?  Is it merely
>fashion?  Or is it, as I implied in my story, a function of the
>evolution/devolution of man's collective unconscience?  ....  Now,
>the question from a weird point of view; since these stories were
>handled so well from the 'fifties, and the authors probably didn't
>give a damn if they were making some kind of statement, *is it
>proof that people don't change*?  Are these altered states constant
>in our species, and our awareness of them fluctuating?

Sure people change. Check out a book published last year (I think)
by a historian called "The Great Cat Massacre." It's about the
medieval world-view and makes fascinating reading. Or check out a
book called "Turing's Man," by Stephen Bolton, which discusses
changing metaphors for life, the universe, and everything (the
ancient Greeks had the spindle, renaissance Europeans had the clock
mechanism, we today have the computer as a central metaphor, he
claims). We change our world views as our knowledge of ourselves and
the universe changes.

As to evolution of a "collective unconscious," show me one.

                        Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Time Travel and the Titanic
Date: 4 Jan 86 03:03:20 GMT

        Being a great fan of both time travel and the mystery
surrounding the TITANIC, I have a request. Please e-mail me the
title of any book, tv show, movie or anything else that deals with
time travellers appearing on the TITANIC. Please accompany book
titles with author(s) name(s).
        Those stories I don't need to information about are:

Television: The Time Tunnel Episode One
            The Time Tunnel Final Episode (whatever number it was)

Movies: Time Bandits

        These stories can only have one paragraph or five minutes of
film about this, but I want to know about it. Anyone who can help
me, I would really appreciate it you would take the time to mail me
a message. Thank you.
                                        Kenneth Crist
                                        seismo!cvl!kayuucee

------------------------------

From: warwick!sar@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Ritchie)
Subject: Re: Sexual orientation in book ads
Date: 3 Jan 86 01:52:58 GMT

>hsf@hlexa.UUCP (Henry Friedman) writes:
>1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance
>   is predominantly straight or gay?  (I don't think this would be
>   necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels
>   about social/political oppression.)
>
>2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have
>   mattered to me?
>
>3) Was it my fault for not remembering or knowing that Delany's
>   sf writing has a gay slant?
>4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club
>   advertised the book?
>5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended
>   such considerations?

This is actually Jill Rose, of Quartet/Women's Press (London), using
Simon's user code to follow up:

At our last sales conference, the Women's Press sales reps came to
the conclusion that mention of gay sexuality at the start of an
ad/blurb is a disincentive to some buyers, but mention half-way is
ok, because the prejudiced reader is interested by then, and the
open-minded reader was never a problem. The gay reader will seek out
books concerning gay sexuality (we hope).  This attitude may seem
mercenary, but wider sales allow us to publish more books for
lesbians.

These opinions are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer
or any other person.

------------------------------

From: peterson@istari.DEC (Bob Peterson)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 3 Jan 86 16:59:26 GMT

Gee, all the replies I've see seem unanimous on pretty much all
points. But how has this affected Mr. Friedman, the person with the
original questions? Would he care to indicate his reaction to the
feedback?  Is he gonna write the book club?  Ever read another book
with gay characters?  I presume Delany's latest will be shelved and
ressurrected only during moments of extreme insomnia.  It's been
controversial enough I'll have to buy/borrow a copy to find out for
myself.

bob
usenet: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxwrk!peterson
arpa:   peterson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Sex in books
Date: 3 Jan 86 21:38:38 GMT

What with all this raving on the net about gay sex in books (and
also a discussion of Jack Chalkers Flux and Anchor series), I
thought I would throw in my two cents worth.

First - I feel that merely by mentioning that the book dealt with
sexuality the cover was being a LOT more honest than the vast
majority of books!  Too often now I find my enjoyment of a SF book
being spoiled by the gratuitous introduction of sex scenes which do
not add anything to the development of the storyline.  This is one
of the reasons why I have stopped reading books by Heinlein - I do
not really enjoy reading about other peoples sexual hang- ups about
their mothers, or descriptions of gang-bangs. I find Jack Chalker's
books even worse - there is a strong element of sado-masochism in
his works, especially in the way he deals with female characters.
The Flux and Anchor series was the first series I ever failed to
complete (I stopped after buying book 2), although this unique
accolade may soon be lost - I do not think that I shall buy the 5th
volume of Piers Antony's "Bio of a Space Tyrant".

                             (FLAME ON)

Too often now sex scenes are defended with the argument "It helps
you to get a better picture of the personalities of the people
involved". Not only is this a cop-out, it is also untrue!  Very few
authors are capable of dealing with an inter-personal relationship
this complex without letting their own particular prejudices show
through, and those that are good enough can give you a perfect
understanding of their characters in other ways!  And before you cry
"Sexual relationships don't HAVE to be complex" - if the
relationship is not complex then it does not add very much to your
understanding of the character apart from letting you know that
he/she/whatever has a casual attitude to sex, in which case you do
not need a blow-by-blow description :-).

                           (FLAME OFF ?)

I hope this does not give the impression that I feel sex should
never enter into a story line - I know of several SF books where sex
is in one way or another an integral part of the story, and I am
SURE I will be told about several others!  It is just that nowadays
it seems to be almost obligatory to have some sexual content to a
story in even the most irrelevant context (just as seems to be true
in Hollywood). If the sex is relevant it should not cause any
offence wheter it be gay, straight, or any other variations.

                           (FINAL FLAME)

Still, what can you expect from a society that glorifies violence on
the mass media with series like "The A-Team", but is not even
prepared to admit that women have breasts (unless you watch PBS,
when you get the occasional glimpse on series from the BBC)?  Sexual
repression is stupid - the human race would not exist without sex,
whereas I have an idealistic opinion that it would be quite possible
to exist in a society without violence if only one could find such a
society! The sex drive is too strong to ignore, and trying to
smother it will only cause an increased appetite for titillation.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jan 86 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jan 1986       Volume 11 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Brust & Delany (3 msgs),
                  Films - Android (3 msgs) & Lensman (2 msgs),
                  Radio - The Hobbit,
                  Miscellaneous - Trilogies (2 msgs) & New Waves

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: unirot!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 4 Jan 86 21:34:11 GMT

This seems to be one of those books nobody will agree about.  I
really enjoyed reading it, and found the stylistic conventions
rather charming.  Sure SZKB is exploring some of
territories/style/modalities of previous authors, but the general
direction seems to be one of growth.

I recommend anyone interested should read a chapter or two of one of
his books and take their options from there...

George Robbins
uucp:   ...!ihnp4!tapa!grr
        ...!caip!unirot!grr
P.O. Box 177
Lincoln U, PA  19352

------------------------------

From: sun!blueskye@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Ryan)
Subject: Samuel Delany and Stars in My Pockets Like Grains of Sand
Date: 4 Jan 86 21:45:07 GMT

        What with all this chit-chat about Samuel Delany's _Stars in
my Pocket like Grains of Sand_ (SIMPLGOS), I'd like to offer my own
opinion on the book and some of the questions raised in this
discussion.
        I have read SIMPLGOS, as well as almost everything else
written by Sam Delany.  It is my observation that most of Delany's
works are studies on a particular theme.  For example, "Time
considered as a helix of semi-precious stones" is a study of crime
in a homogeneous and fairly controlled society.  _Dhalgren_ is a
study of dreams, and living in an urban ghetto.  "The Star Pit" is a
study about the ecology that we all live in; it is a story about
enclosure and limits and how we each respond to our limits.  _Tides
of Lust_ is a no hol[ed]s barred study of sexuality and mythos.
Similarly, SIMPLGOS has a theme; several, I think.  That the two
main characters in SIMPLGOS have "gay" sex is almost beside the
point.  I see SIMPLGOS as a study of gender and the family.  Delany
is very good--for about the first 100 or so pages, it seems that
most characters (except the protagonist, Rat Korga) are referred to
as "she."  Except sometimes they also get referred to as "he." I
admit I was thoroughly confused as to the characters' genders, and I
was delighted that Delany had so confused me.  And then he drops the
explanation into our laps like a 100 Watt bulb turned on in the
middle of the night--people are referred to as "she" until they
become the objects of sex, during which they are referred to as
"he." All at once, Delany turns our own world upside down, and gives
men a sort of come-uppance.  Brilliant.  As for the dealings with
"the family," the background conflict that comes to the forefront as
the book progresses, is that between the Dyeth (pronounced like
"death" [sneaky, huh?]) and the Thant families.  The Dyeth's are
members of a stream, a loose association of affectional entities,
who, in their case, are not all of the same species.  The Thants are
members of a group that seems to be much more like the "nuclear
family," with roles assigned according to age and physical gender.
Delany contrasts these two ideas nicely, and I sense that the next
book in his diptych will explore this "family feud" much more.  He
also hints that this difference in style has more that personal
ramifications--it appears to have mass political and psychological
impacts. That, too, will be intersting to follow.
        I think that Delany is one of the best contemporary SF
authors.  I like his style. He is not afraid to write about the
tough issues of our time, like race, gender, the family, the poor,
the disenfranchised, and sexuality. His characters are very human
and far from perfect.  All radical concepts for SF.  Only one other
contemporary writer compares--Ursual K. LeGuin.
        As to the questions raised by the original poster, they all
strike me as provocative.  Others have given the Politically Correct
answers, so I won't reiterate. I did want to contribute to this
discussion, however, since I seem to be one of the few interested
parties who has actually finished the book.  I would recommend this
book to any and all readers as a worthwhile venture.  It is full of
surprises (like dragon "hunting") and thought provoking.  I can't
wait for the second book!

tim ryan
{...ucbvax, nsc, ihnp4, hplabs, pyramid}!sun!blueskye

------------------------------

From: harvard!dyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 5 Jan 86 01:13:01 GMT

I've just finished the first major section of the book, and perhaps
things might be different later on, but all of the sex so far in
this book, homosex or otherwise, has about as much to do with gay or
straight 20th century Earth culture as moon rocks do.  Delany uses
sex just like any other characteristic as a means to "alienate" the
readers from the characters and the worlds they inhabit.  Whether
it's the fact that all the people wear little lozenges over their
face or that all the straights want to get flogged or the fact that
our hero likes others of the same sex, it's all just an example of
his maddening arbitrariness.  But to call this a "gay" novel is
ridiculous--as ridiculous as making an issue of the protagonist's
predilections to begin with.

Steve Dyer
dyer@harvard.harvard.edu
harvard!dyer

------------------------------

From: stcvax!dlb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Black)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 2 Jan 86 16:15:10 GMT

I'm a little surprised about the complaint about the sexual content
of the Delany novel.  I read the book a couple of weeks ago so the
general impression that it gave is still fresh in my mind.  Sexual
desire is an important part of the book but sex acts themselves are
not, so unless the original poster's objection is to the very idea
or mention of homosexuality, I don't understand what the complaint
is.  I understand that the original posting was about the general
idea of labeling but I don't understand how this particular book
provoked it.  Are there others who have read the book and can
comment on their reactions to the sexual action vs. the sexual
orientation?

------------------------------

From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID
Date: 4 Jan 86 01:20:20 GMT

   This may have been discussed on the net before but why isn't the
lead character in the movie 'Android', the one who plays the
android, given credit?  At the end of the opening credits it simply
says:
                      And Introducing Max 404

   Then second from the top of the closing credits (right after
Klaus Kinski) it says;

                       Max 404.......Himself

What's realy strange is that further down the credits where they're
taking care of the special effects people it says:

            Max 404 Software.................Sean Foley
            Max 404 Maintenance..............Ornette Caruso

   The final weirdosity is that at the end when they show the
universal disclaimer it states:

             Special thanks to the unamed individuals who
        contributed to the fabrication and operation of Max 404,
          whithout whom this film would not have been possible.

   What gives?  The woman who plays the female android is given
credit, and assuming this film was made in America (can't tell from
the credits) all the actors would have to be members of the Screen
Actors Guild and union rules would DEMAND that the actor be given
credit.
   Desperately in need of information...

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless @ Imperial
From: Propoganda)
Subject: Re: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID
Date: 4 Jan 86 18:22:16 GMT

What Klaus Kinski movie was ever made in the America?  I thought
they were all European, particularly German.

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID
Date: 4 Jan 86 07:34:50 GMT

Actually, I think Android was British (maybe Canadian?) Even so, all
the person who played Max has to do is register "Max 404" as a
pseudonym and the SAG will be happy. The Android people were
probably just having a bit of fun.  There is a precedent for it,
anyway -- on the old Addams Family TV show, Thing was always
credited as "Itself". Of course it never spoke (therefore qualifying
as an extra under SEG instead of SAG) and it was played by whatever
hand happened to be free at the time (so to speak). I recently
watched an episode where the hand playing Thing changed at least
three times that I noticed.

I think Android was just a cute film that refused to take itself too
seriously. I just wish more people were willing to do so...

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: lzaz!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Lensman in Video
Date: 3 Jan 86 15:22:52 GMT

wildstar@nmtvax.UUCP writes:
>      Does anyone know if some movie producer plans to translate
> the Lensman series (by Doc Smith) into a series of motion
> pictures? Or if Marvel or DC plan to render it in comic form? I
> think it may be a nice thing to see.

Some Japanese animation company has already made a movie called
"Lensman".  The characters had the same names, but the story had
very little to do with the E. E. Smith novels.  (For example, a
dying Lensman tells Kinnison to pass on a message; when he dies, his
lens jumps on to Kinnison's wrist!  "They've never done that
before," says a Lensman later.  No kidding!)  I saw it with
subtitles at a convention (L.A.Con II, I think, Labor Day weekend in
1984).

BTW, if you have a comics-related question, post or cross-post to
net.comics (but no, I haven't heard of a Lensman comic).

Final note: There was a scene in Larry Niven's "Arm" (in THE LONG
ARM OF GIL HAMILTON) when two characters reminisce about sneaking a
Watchman-clone behind their books and watching the Lensman video in
class.

Paul S. R. Chisholm, ihnp4!lznv!psc (not ihnp4!lzaz!psc)

------------------------------

To: nmtvax!wildstar@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Lensman in Video
Date: 04 Jan 86 21:20:57 PST (Sat)
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

At TIMECON (San Jose, CA) this year they showed an annimated movie
which may have been Skylark but I believe was Lensman.  I believe it
was Japanese produced.  Unfortunately, I chose to attend a parallel
activity, which partially explains my failure to be sure of which
they showed.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 86 03:21:07 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: More Hobbit Hunting...

Well, now that I've found out what I'm looking for, I have
discovered that it is nearly impossible to buy.  Does anyone out
there have the Argo Hobbit Records, who would be willing to get some
cassettes from me via USSnail and tape the records and send me back
the tapes?  Pls respond to me personally -- no need to strain the
readers' patience and the network load any more than necessary...

Leigh Ann
(USPO Address in case: 2240 Blake St. #103, Berkeley CA, 94704)

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Trilogies: Not necessarily the author's choice.
Date: 3 Jan 86 18:20:02 GMT

> ... business reasons splits it into three inexpensive books rather
> than one costly book.  This is done in spite of (or because of)
> the fact that the three books total price will exceed the price of
> the costly book.

Actually, it isn't that simple (is anything?) One of the main
criteria is the price barrier. As cover price goes up, sales go
down, and above a certain level (at one point it was at about $3.00
for a paperback) sales drop like a rock. Although Hubbard and
Michener might be changing this to some degree, it is MUCH harder to
get a single 250,000 word book sold because of the required cover
price than it is to split it out. Readers view it as expensive and
you lose the impulse buy.

You also need to worry about nifty things like press capacity and
binding (do you have machines that can print and put together
100,000 800 page paperbacks?) Also, if you spread it out into two or
three books, you can spread out the printing costs over a year or
more instead of a few months. If your machines are running close to
capacity, you simply might not be able to use the resources
necessary to print the equivalent of three books under a single
title unless you're sure it is going to be a big seller

Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: unirot!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Trilogies: Not necessarily the author's choice.
Date: 4 Jan 86 21:45:23 GMT

Interestingly enough, CJ Cherryh's lastest (if not greatest) book,
'The Kif Strike Back' has an author's note at the tail covering some
why and wherefores of trilogies.  No excuses for the title though...

Also, someone mentioned that the Piers Anthony's Xanth series had to
be the most overgrown trilogy.  I am under the illusion that it is
really a cluster of related trilogies.

I can't be sure, since I decided quite a while ago that Anthony
seems to have the same disease as Farmer, ie spewing endlessly while
never getting beyond being cute and/or clever.

George Robbins
uucp:   ...!ihnp4!tapa!grr
        ...!caip!unirot!grr
P.O. Box 177
Lincoln U, PA  19352

------------------------------

From: ritcv!abh6509@caip.rutgers.edu (A. Hudson)
Subject: Re: Waves in science fiction.
Date: 4 Jan 86 21:51:50 GMT

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>ins_amap@jhunix.UUCP (Mark Aden Poling) writes:
>>...  The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to
>>bring human values and attitudes into what had previously been
>>very Machine oriented fiction.  This of course meant that
>>surrealism was prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published
>>then.
>
>??? Surrealism was an art movement of the early 20th century that
>attempted to free the workings of the so-called subconscious. Art
>(whether painting, sculpture, literature, etc.) that is
>surrealistic is characteristally dreamlike and presents objects and
>events out of context; it attempts (as I understand it) to unlock
>or touch the subconscious by destroying the normal chain of
>associations that we have when we look at something. Thus the
>famous painting (was it by Man Ray?) of the pipe (smoking) labelled
>"ce n'est pas une pipe" (i.e., "this is not a pipe"). I hardly see
>what surrealism has to do with the New Wave's attempt to bring
>human values and attitudes into 'hard' SF. Certainly some New Wave
>authors occasionally used techniques that had a surrealistic flavor
>(a lot of J. G. Ballard's work has this flavor, to my way of
>thinking) but the movement was not primarily a surrealistic
>movement IN INTENT.

I think that that although your interpretation of surrealism is
valid, it is a more classic and constrained interpretation.
Over-analysis of the works of surrealism will fail to perceive the
intuitive senses of which are more important.

Consider works like A. E. Van Vogt's Universe Maker, Pendulum, The
Reflected Men - these have a dreamy-strangeness. He used to wake up
in the middle of the night to add plot details.

Consider Philip Dick's Martian Time Slip. Although one could argue
that he was intending a description of neurosis or schizophrenia, I
thought it had definite surrealistic overtones.

I think you are correct in stating that there hasn't been any
intentional movement of surrealistic writing. But then what
movements are intentional?

Can anyone recommend other sci-fi works with surrealistic
influence??

A. Hudson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jan 86 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bradley & Delany (2 msgs) & Feist &
                    Spinrad & Tepper,
            Films - Lensman & The Works of J. Ward & Android,
            Miscellaneous - Sex in Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 86 12:50:59 +0100
From: XBR1YD22%DDATHD21.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (YD22@BR1.THDNET)
Subject: Title Request - The Darkover Novels

     Could anybody supply a list of all the Darkover Novels by
Marion Zimmer Bradley? I'd like to read more of them. Thank you very
much.
     Please reply directly to me, I'll then summarize to the net.

Ralf Bayer
Computer Center of the Technical University of Darmstadt
Darmstadt, West Germany
ARPAnet:  xbr1yd22%ddathd21.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 5 Jan 86 01:38:10 GMT

I wonder if the idea that to appreciate a story one must identify
with its major characters is attributable to television?  (Half
serious.)

Back to Delany: Just about all of his early work has no sex in it at
all.  This includes The Jewels of Aptor, the Towers Trilogy, the
Einstein Intersection, Babel-17, and Nova.  Read the last three if
you don't like some particular variety of sex in your books but want
to see why Delany is considered to be such a good writer.  Babel-17
has a strong female protagonist, for those who are tired of Delany's
Kidd character.  There are several short story collections, none
with a bad story, many of them Hugo or Nebula winners, all with
practically no sex.

If you *want* weird sex, try Tides of Lust (if you can find it).
It's got a bit of everything.  It appears that he wanted to practice
writing about sex before he wrote Dhalgren.

Personally, I like his later stuff as well or better than his
earlier.

John Quarterman
UUCP:  {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

From: harvard!dyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 5 Jan 86 17:29:07 GMT

I was wondering what discussion Bill Oliver was participating in in
his most recent posting on Delany's book, but I suspect that it's
been lost in the net, for everything he says seems pretty irrelevant
to the points at hand.  To review some facts:

   o there is no "book review" here, only a book ad.
   o for those who have read, or will take the trouble to
     read SIMPLGOS, you will note that his treatment of
     sexuality really has little to do with "gay"/"straight"
     issues.

It is certainly anyone's prerogative to take offense at Delany's
book, but that does not exempt the person who makes a public
statement about being offended by the supposed "gay" slant of the
novel from equally public criticism.  We'd take any similar
statements about other groups as simply vulgar and an indication
that the poster had problems which needed to be worked on, and it
think it's to the credit of everyone who's responded except Bill
that this is the prevailing sentiment here.  It's a little unclear
to me why Bill cites three articles on evil/bad sexual practice,
because the offensive part of Friedman's article was PRECISELY
because he expressed a dislike for the book's um, orientation, and
not because he felt that specific acts were evil or immoral.  How
SHOULD someone respond, huh?  "Thank you for sharing that with us"?

Steve Dyer dyer@harvard.harvard.edu harvard!dyer

------------------------------

From: udenva!wbruvold@caip.rutgers.edu (wbruvold)
Subject: Re: MAGICIAN, by Raymond E. Feist---and sequels?
Date: 6 Jan 86 01:35:47 GMT

chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) claims:
>Recently I bought a paperback entitled `Magician: Apprentice'.  It
>turns out that this is Book I of II concerning one Pug, Magician's
>Apprentice, his companions, and the events during his rather
>unusual apprenticeship.  Both books are part of a larger tale, `The
>Riftwar Saga', comprising also the stories `Silverthorn' and `A
>Darkness at Sethanon'.
>
>I have since discovered that Doubleday had printed as a single
>edition books I and II of Magician in hardback in 1982, and in
>trade paperback in 1984---fortunately, as Book II, `Magician:
>Master', is not yet available in its Bantam Spectra mass market
>edition; and I dislike leaving a tale unfinished.  Well, this
>brings me to a question: In the back of the trade paperback
>edition, I find the words `Watch for Silverthorn, the sequel to
>Magician, coming soon from Doubleday'; and in the front cover of
>the paperback edition, dates are listed for neither Silverthorn nor
>A Darkness at Sethanon.  I would like to know whether these are in
>print and by whom: Publishers do not always print books that are
>`coming soon'.

I also enjoyed the work and The author's treatment of his
characters and their backgrounds.  However, your above story is
very confusing so here is mine and perhaps you can piece together
what you need.

I read a paper back version of the first book entitled "Magician".
This was not a trade paperback and I had my book store order it for
me.  It was published by Doubleday and retailed for about $8.50.

Singlethorn was published in the fall of '85 in hardback (no news on
paperback) again by Doubleday and cost 10-15.  As far as the third
book, I have no idea when it is coming out but I am kepping my eyes
peeled on Books in Print for it.  My suggestion is to wait till you
see Singlethorn come out in paperback (it suffers from the dreaded
2nd in a trilogy problem) and get it then.

The bottom line therefore is that Singlethorn is out, it is still
only in hardback (as of Dec15,1985) and Darkneess at Sethanon is not
yet out.

Hope this helps
W. Erik Bruvold

------------------------------

From: rubin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Rubin)
Subject: CHILD OF FORTUNE by Norman Spinrad
Date: 7 Jan 86 07:29:31 GMT

CHILD OF FORTUNE, by Norman Spinrad. (Bantam, 1985, 483 pp.)
Review by Michael Rubin.

I can't figure out why a book like CHILD OF FORTUNE would be written
in 1985; it seems trapped in the Sixties, somewhere between
Haight-Ashbury and Never-Never Land.  It isn't an examination of or
coming to terms with the hippie phenomenon, but a fairly heavy
romanticization.  Yet despite this odd choice of starting point it
is an altogether well-told and delightful story.

The premise is that in a healthy society, teenagers are given a
"wanderjahr", a rite of passage consisting of spending year or so
out on the road to discover oneself.  (Aborigines on walkabout,
gypsies, tinkers, ronin and hippies are listed as early versions.)
Moussa, the spoiled, precocious daughter of fashionable artists,
goes for her wanderjahr to planet Edoku.  She meets the king of the
funky street people, a possibly immortal fellow styling himself
"Pater Pan", who renames her Sunshine and convinces her to be a
storyteller.  Then follow a series of adventures, including a new
and scary version of the story of the Lotus Eaters.  By the end of
the book she has renamed herself Wendi, and is a writer and an
interstellar celebrity and presumably lives happily ever after
(unless there's a sequel).

In the meantime Spinrad delivers a lot of wisdom about storytelling
and archetypes from the mouths of the various storyteller and writer
characters.  That seems to be stylish in fiction these days, and I'm
not sure whether I agree with (or understand) all he has to say.
But he is consciously writing an archetypical rite-of-passage story
with lots of archetype characters, and all the references seem to
click (and it's a GOOD archetypical rite-of-passage story).  The
language is flowery and rather precious, with bits of French,
German, Japanese and a few more languages sprinkled around.  This
speech pattern is appropriate for the jet-set heroine but some
readers may find it tough going.

My personal problem with this book was, again, the premise.  In 1969
I was in a fashionably liberal private grade school in Manhattan,
painting peace signs in Arts & Crafts, unaware that students were
rioting two miles away at Columbia and not even really conscious
that there were poor people living on the next block.  The world of
CHILD OF FORTUNE seems nearly as sanitized: no politics or war
intrude, people are poor only by choice, and the only major sin is
to be spiritually unfulfilled.  As much as this situation is
beautiful and romantic and wouldn't-it-be-lovely, I'm not sure how
much it has to say about actual people.  Give it +1 on the -4 to +4
Leeper scale.

Oh yes, it seems to be the same universe as THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE,
which I haven't read.

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: JINIAN FOOTSEER by Sheri S. Tepper (mild spoiler)
Date: 2 Jan 86 16:27:45 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "Bright the sun burning,
  Night will come turning
  Mothwings go spinning,
  End and beginning,
  Eye of the Star,
  Where Old Gods are.

  Players, take your places...The Land itself calls Game!"

If you haven't read one of Ms. Tepper's previous novels (KING'S
BLOOD FOUR, NECROMANCER NINE, or WIZARD'S ELEVEN), the information
on the jacket won't mean anything.

In this world people either have a Talent (such as seeing the
future, reading minds, and following tracks) or they don't. A
Talentless person is called a pawn. A person with one or more
Talents usually falls into a particular class for that combination,
and one of the things just about everyone learns is the Index which
lists the known classifications. More often than not, people with
Talents compete against each other, sometimes just to see who has
more skill, but frequently with the intent to injure or kill.

This particular book concerns a teenage girl, Jinian. Her mother is
the top lady at a castle, but she only cares for her sons. Jinian is
taken under wing by six pawns, women who teach her the "Wize arts".
Various adventures take place thanks to Jinian's troublesome
relatives.

I was fascinated by this book. Jinian appears partway through
WIZARD'S ELEVEN, and this book explains how she got there. The story
is just as interesting and exciting as those told by Peter
Shapechanger (the narrator of the other three novels), starting
slowly and increasing in pace until you don't want to put the book
down. The world is one more of fantasy than science fiction, but it
is very complex and well thought out.

One bit of advice in reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN and JINIAN FOOTSEER.
The last chapter of JINIAN FOOTSEER summarizes Jinian's part in
WIZARD'S ELEVEN.  This comes after the climax, so it doesn't mean
that you have to read WIZARD'S ELEVEN first in order to enjoy the
book. However, if you haven't read WIZARD'S ELEVEN, I recommend
skipping the last chapter (19) because it may spoil reading WIZARD'S
ELEVEN.

I give the book 3.5 stars (very, very good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 86 08:17:25 PST (Monday)
Subject: Re: Lensman in Video
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

Andrew,

To my knowledge, only one film adaptation of the Lensman series has
been done.  It was an excellent Japanese animation, which used
computer graphics for a number of the space scenes.  However, I saw
the non-subtitled Japanese version, so I don't know if the dialog
was terribly good.  Overall it seemed to very roughly approximate
the first Lensman novel.  Distinctly worth seeing, though.

Kurt

------------------------------

Subject: J. Ward
Date: 06 Jan 86 12:53:25 PST (Mon)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

Hi folks.
   I come to you here with a not-quite sf request, but with all
the talk about animation gone past in recent weeks, I'm hoping I can
get a response from somebody.
   I am looking to contact any person who has possession of any
of the animated works of Mr. J. Ward.  I don't mean originals, just
playable copies of anything.  ( For those of you who can't recall
the name, Ward did Rocky & Bullwinkle, Fractured Fairytales, George
of the Jungle, Tom Slick, and a couple of others I can't remember. )
   Spread the word around, ask your friendly, local, video nut.

Thanks in advance, folks.
Dave Godwin
University of California, Irving

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter)
Subject: Re: My theory on the credits for ANDROID
Date: 6 Jan 86 20:37:08 GMT

>>   Then second from the top of the closing credits (right after
>>Klaus Kinski) it says;
>>                        Max 404.......Himself
> As android was mediocre SF fare, simply the 1e6th rehashing of
> Frankenstein with a twist, the actor who played Max 4040 was
> probably displeased and refused to allow the use of his name in
> the credits.  You can insist that your name go in the credits, and
> you can also insist on a stage name of any sort.

What?!  You don't believe they used a real android? :-)

Seriously though, I am not beyond believing a combination of camera
tricks, animation tricks and animatronics like work could be used to
artificially produce a character.  Although I don't think it was
done in Android.

johnathan a. tainter

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 86 08:39 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."

rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes:
> Finally, it betrays a lack of knowledge of publishing: publishers
> are legally free to put anything they like on book covers; not
> even the author has ANY control over what goes on them.  The
> disclaimers being suggested are not only utterly irrelevant to
> publishing practices, they imply a warped kind of public service
> at odds with what publishing houses see as effective and
> appropriate cover advertising.

I have several points, the first being the more important (and more
cogent).

1) If publishers stray too far from the truth on the book covers, I
would hope people would stop buying them. (Intelligent people
anyway.)  So I think there is a limiting factor to the blatant
dishonesty found on book covers.

2) What Rizzo's message implies to me is that he holds the following
view: If it is the status quo, you have no right to complain about
it.  WRONG! Not being one to suggest that we return to the attitudes
of Victorian times, I believe that society decides what is
appropriate to appear in public. Novels are in the public domain and
regardless of whether the practices under discussion are "utterly
irrelevant to publishing practices" they are a valid point of
discussion, and society may demand that they change. What happens in
private is another matter.

3) I think that SF (to get back to the topic) and SF readers are
relatively flexible on sexual topics. For this reason, the SF book
club and publishers need not be as careful about such things as
other publishers and book clubs. I think that this is good: I wish
the entire world population would be as flexible as I perceive SF
readers to be.

4) The original poster has every right to demand more disclosure on
the cover of the book. The publisher has every right to ignore that
demand.  I see no conflict here. Admittedly, the topic would never
have come up if this were not a predominantly heterosexual world,
but this is not an issue when it comes to the right of the
individual to complain.

I have more to say, but I'll get off the soapbox now and let someone
else have it lest I wear out my welcome.

Dave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jan 86 1011-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Feist & Russell,
                      Films - Klaus Kinski,
                      Television - Overdrawn at the Memory Bank,
                      Miscellaneous - Sex in Books (2 msgs) &
                              Censorship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: MAGICIAN, by Raymond E. Feist---and sequels?
Date: 8 Jan 86 07:22:00 GMT

I should have looked before I posted my original question.

Silverthorn is indeed out in hardback, from Doubleday, ISBN
0-385-19210-X.  Whether it is worth the cover price I do not yet
know.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: apollo!nazgul@caip.rutgers.edu (Kee Hinckley)
Subject: Re: story request
Date: 6 Jan 86 23:30:36 GMT

michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes:
>>From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
>>Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", but
>>the other sounds like a story by Poul Anderson.  I don't remember
>>the title, but it can be found in a collection of his stories
>>called, "7 Conquests."
>
> The article that the above is a reply to has unfortunately
> scrolled off our system, so I'm not sure what was actually
> requested, but a story involving "obs" was the novel *The Great
> Explosion* by Eric Frank Russell.  A resurgent Earth is attempting
> to bring back into

Hmmm.  Does anyone know if that is still in print?  I have a
collection of short stories that has the 'obs' story in it, but I
don't believe that it was tied in with any others.

Kee Hinckley
...decvax!wanginst!apollo!nazgul

------------------------------

From: lcliffor@bbncca.ARPA (Laura Frank Clifford)
Subject: Re: Questions about movie credits for ANDROID
Date: 7 Jan 86 17:08:23 GMT

Klaus Kinski was in "Dr. Zhivago" (British? or American), "For a Few
Dollars More" (American or Italian?), "Venom" (British, I believe),
"Schizoid" (American or Canadian), "Raid on Entebbe" (I think an
American made-for-TV movie) -- so he doesn't only appear in German
productions.  If anyone knows any I've missed, I'd love to know -
Kinski's my favorite!

I've also recently seen an Embassy/Home Video production of "Beauty
and the Beast" starring Klaus Kinski and Susan Sarandon.  I had
never heard of this - does anyone know how it was originally
distributed (Shelly Duvall's Fairy Tale Theater, perhaps?).

Laura Clifford

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank
Date: 6 Jan 86 14:23:00 GMT

A TV programme by this name is being shown on Channel 4 next
Saturday. I believe it originated in the US.

2 questions:-

   1) Is it an adaptation of the John Varley story of the same
      name?

   2) Will a John Varley fan (i.e. me) writhe, swear and
      tear his hair out if he watches it?

I've seen one or two naff SF programmes.....

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: hlexa!hsf@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Friedman)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 6 Jan 86 16:19:26 GMT

> Gee, all the replies I've see seem unanimous on pretty much all
> points. But how has this affected Mr. Friedman, the person with
> the original questions? Would he care to indicate his reaction to
> the feedback?  Is he gonna write the book club?  Ever read another
> book with gay characters?  I presume Delany's latest will be
> shelved and ressurrected only during moments of extreme insomnia.
> bob   usenet: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxwrk!peterson

I appreciate all the feedback, criticisms, flames, etc. While there
was general agreement on some points, the reactions were quite
diverse, taken as a whole.

Some points which hit home were:
1) Read reviews, not just ads.
2) "Blame, etc." are not issues on questions of personal taste.
3) Complain if you think an ad was misleading. (I'd like to send
  them all these reactions, if it were practical to expect the club
  managers to read them. But gee, if I complain and they give me my
  money back, I'll lose my two bonus points :-) ).

I apparently did not make myself clear enough that I didn't find
explicit gay sex scenes shocking or repugnant--just uninteresting.
Also, I didn't cross-post to net.motss to complain to the gay
community--just to give its members a chance to participate in the
discussion of the issue.(I certainly was not surprised at the
general lack of sympathy, but expect that many gay readers,in
general, want to know when a book has special appeal to a gay
market. I was amused by the one guy who thanked me for letting him
know the book had gay appeal, as he didn't particularly like SF,
anyway, and certainly not if he had to plow through pages of
straight sex.)

One interesting point, Jill Rose confirmed a suspicion that others
had voiced: books INTENDED MAINLY to appeal to gay readers are often
marketed in a purposely ambiguous fashion to increase sales.

One person who actually read the book thought I exaggerated the
extent to which explicit gay sex was highlighted. He may be right,
as I stopped at about the exact midpoint of the book based upon
expectations.  At that point there were already indications that the
romantic scenes were to be largely gay. And the two central
characters, after having received computer indications that they
were each other's perfect erotic objects down to 5 decimal places,
were retiring to a bedroom to evaluate this report. I didn't find
this shocking or repulsive, just uninteresting (if much of the
remainder was to be in this vein).

If a review indicates that a book with gay themes or characters is
great (or a great read), I would not AVOID reading it, especially if
the general themes, etc, seemed of interest.

Henry Friedman

------------------------------

From: unc!oliver@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Oliver)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 7 Jan 86 04:20:50 GMT

dyer@harvard.UUCP (Steve Dyer) writes:
>I was wondering what discussion Bill Oliver was participating in in
>his most recent posting on Delany's book, but I suspect that it's
>been lost in the net, for everything he says seems pretty
>irrelevant to the points at hand.  To review some facts:
>
>   o there is no "book review" here, only a book ad.
>   o for those who have read, or will take the trouble to
>     read SIMPLGOS, you will note that his treatment of
>     sexuality really has little to do with "gay"/"straight"
>     issues.

I apologise if my comments regarding the questions about objecting
to homosexual content in a book seemed a bit bizarre.  In part, this
was because my first reply was in fact a comment on Mr. Kiselev's
statement that one should not have a preference in the way sex is
depicted in literature, since "sex is sex."

I suppose I am simply rather sensitized to the subject due to my
line of work (for those of you who do not read net.med, I am a
forensic pathologist.  Forensic Pathology is that medical specialty
which deals primarily in the evaluation of unnatural death, though
we are also usually heavily involved in evaluating any process,
natural or unnatural, which has a general public health impact.),
but I was trying to make the point that sex is not just sex, and
that one should not mildly accept nor feel obligated to appreciate a
literary description of sexual activity on the ground that a
nonjudgemental approach to the subject is necessarily the best
approach.

In the case of the paraphilias, it is a repeated pattern that
practitioners mature within a given practice, beginning with the
aquisition and appreciation of allusionary or allegoric material,
move to more explicit accounts, and eventually to frankly
pornographic material which is then used both for gratification
alone and as templates for acting out.  Maturation of paraphilic
experience is thus a learning experience which may occur over a
period of years, ending in fatality and/or exploitation.

As to Mr. Dyer's criticism that what I had to say had little to do
with homosexuality, I must admit culpability and repeat that I
reacted more to Mr. Kiselev's reply than to the original question.
I certainly do not wish to imply that homosexuality, per se, is a
paraphilia. Quite the opposite; I have dealt with more than a few
people who suffered considerable ill effects because of such a
misapprehension.  One young man, for instance, tried so hard to deny
his homosexuality that he became engaged to be married.  He suffered
numerous psychosomatic diseases, including peptic ulcer disease and
ulcerative colitis, both of which can be extrememly serious and
rarely frankly life threatening, primarily because of his profound
constant anxiety.  Once he accepted his orientation, his health
improved immeasurably.  Still, I feel strongly that Mr. Friedman
(the original poster) need not feel guilty in any way because he
lacks an appreciation for homosexual literature.

My second point was that if one has a pronounced preference for a
given sexual orientation in literature, it is not "wrong" to express
that preference in one's buying habits, nor is it "wrong" to be
disappointed when those preferences are not met in a book that one
expected to gratify that preference.  The original poster had
specifically asked if it was somehow wrong for him to be
disappointed in finding a homosexual slant in a book he had bought
with the expectation of finding descriptions of heterosexual
sensuality.

My ignorance that the reviews by the Quality Paperback Book Club are
meant to be very brief was a misapprehension based on my experience
with the only book club I belong to, the History Book Club.  In it,
most new additions to the lists are accompanied by a review of a few
pages in length.  While older books are described in just a short
sentence, almost all books listed have been reviewed at length at
some time.  I still feel that a book club has a certain
responsibilty to its members - I have seen volumes of Norman's Gor
series described in the same uninformative terms of "sensuality" and
would be distressed to find that I had spent money to obtain such a
volume.  As an aside for those of you interested in history, I have
been extremely happy with the service and selection of the History
Book Club.

I suppose that since I am strongly opposed to literary censorship
(Indeed, there is often no better way to attempt to understand the
psychodynamics of, or subjective responses to the paraphilias than
through literary description.  Observe the description of erotic
asphyxiation in William S. Burroughs' "Naked Lunch", or the hanging
of Roland in "Justine" by de Sade.), I feel that the most
appropriate way for society to deal with paraphilic literature is
through diffuse societal disapproval rather than legislation.  In
another area of public health, such a society wide approbation is
developing, for instance, against cigarette smoking, and I feel that
such an attitude will work effectively to decrease fatality as
today's young mature.  Similar attitudes are developing regarding
drinking and driving. Unfortunately, I see the opposite occuring in
the area of sexuality, with greater societal acceptance of a number
of sexual activities which may lead to greater exploitation of the
young and an increase in sexually related fatalities.  Of the lust
murders I have seen in the past few months, the great majority have
been perpetrated by people under the age of 18.

I have great respect for Mr. Delany, both for his writing and for
his success as a homosexual parent, though I prefer his earlier work
(Triton, Driftglass, Dhalgren, The Ballad of Beta Two) to his later
efforts. While I have never had the pleasure of meeting him, my
cousin, a poet in New York and student of Allen Ginsburg (her name
is Alice Notley - BUY HER BOOKS!!!) has had such an opportunity and
describes him in glowing terms.

Upon reflection, I am sure that Mr. Kiselev, when he made such
global statments that "sex is sex" and "romance is romance", had the
vision of any number of loving couples in mind.  When I read such a
statement, however, I instead thought of fugue states and edged
weapons.  I apologise for projecting my concerns on the net.

Bill Oliver

------------------------------

From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Ellison, TZ, Censorship, Moral Fiber, etc.
Date: 6 Jan 86 21:20:11 GMT

One of the most unpleasant of all post-Christmas tasks has to be
coming back from vacation and re-discovering how nasty people can
get over an emotional discussion.  I was going to leave the issue
alone, like a decaying roadkill carcass, when I remembered an
article I read this month that had some impact on this issue.  It's
from the popular radio (NPR), TV (Nightline), and literary "social
critic", Ian ("I gotta go") Shoales (aka Merle Kessler and the
Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre).  It's on censorship, and while it
doesn't completely fit the current flame-out on Ellison, CBS and
Twilight going on, I thought it provided a capper and/or summary of
my feeling on the whole issue of censorship, written much better
than I ever could (yes, I know, that's not much of a feat).  Any
flames will be cheerfully dumped on the compost heap.

Reprinted without permission from _I_Gotta_Go_ by Ian Shoales; I
suggest you read at a breakneck speed, it sounds more like Ian:

    (deleted)

'Nuff said.  I gotta go, too...

Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jan 86 1159-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 10 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anthony & Donaldson & Richmond &
                      Robinson & Book Request Answered,
              Films - Trumbull & Lensman,
              Television - The Prisoner,
              Miscellaneous - Women in SF (2 msgs) & Sex in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 08 Jan 86 13:16:49 EST
From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ a.psy.cmu.edu
Subject: Piers Anthony

Sos the Rope, Var the Stick, and Nek the Sword have been published
together as Battle Circle.  It's very different from most of
Anthony's work, and it was the first work of his that I read.  The
society he creates is very interesting, and the characters are
fairly vivid.  The book is a bit on the depressing side, with
conflicts from misunderstanding along the lines of To Reign In Hell.
Much different from the Xanth books, and much, much better.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 17:20:40 pst
From: stever@cit-vlsi.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )

Brokedown Palace is, in my humble opinion, Brust's best book to
date.

I was expecting another Zelazny imitation, and was pleasantly
suprised - Brust seems to have developed a style all his own.  A
"Hungarian folk-tale" style (sort of).

He steals two placenames (my favorite) and quotes, from Hunter's
lyrics, but with due acknowledgement :-)
                                        Regards,  -Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 86 11:37 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Thomas Covenant

Jordan E Kalpin asked about any additional books by Steven Donaldson 
in the Thomas Covenant series.  I attended an autograph session at A 
Change of Hobbit a couple of years ago, just after The One Tree came 
out in hardcover.  A person standing in front of me asked if there 
would be a third trilogy; Donaldson replied something on the order of
"Well, I have some ideas... and in a few years, if it seems like a
good idea, then I'll write a third one".  I haven't heard anything 
more recent.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 11:24 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: ?

Thank you for your responses to my story search.  This weekend I was
at my local SF bookstore (Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore, Minneapolis,
MN) and picked up a copy of it, along with some others, and promptly
read it.  A review follows.

    The Lost Millenium
    by Walt and Leigh Richmond
    ACE Double (flipside: a Bertram Chandler Rim story)
    1967 (?)

(Non-spoiler) This story was an enjoyable attempt to provide an
science fiction explanation to mythological (read biblical)
occurrences. My chief complaint was that it was too big a concept for
such a short book (~140 pages).

Since this book is out-of-print as all ACE Doubles are, you will
have to hit the used bookstores in your area. But this has the added
bonus of reducing the cost of this book considerably. (My copy was
75 cents or a dollar, I think.)

(*** Mega Spoiler Warning ***)

The story starts with an engineer who is building the first "Solar
Tap", a power generator that uses the electrical potential that
exists between the ionosphere and the ground as an near infinite
power supply. It gets its name from the charging effect that the
solar wind has on the ionosphere.  The Earth is like a big
electrical generator.  An archaeologist comes and asks him a few
questions about his generator, which is in the form of a large
pyramid, and then starts telling him a story about what he believes
happened 8600 years ago in a civilization that had developed the
Solar Tap.

At the time, there was one supercontinent called Atalama, (the basis
for the Atlantis myths).  The Solar Tap allows nearly-free broadcast
power.  Orbital shuttles are launched from the north pole power
station.  Flying "carapets" are the major personal transport.
Several interstellar colony ships have been sent up to 1100
lightyears away at near light speed.

Instead of conveying Doctorates, universities in this society gave
Lordorates.  So, many of the characters are Lord So-and-so, instead
of Dr. So-and-so.  Advanced genetic research is taking place, and
the first domestic animals, dog and cat, are being produced in the
lab, as well as studies into immortality.

An accident occurs at the polar station, and an uncontrollable
"avalanche" occurs. A gigantic arc between negative and ground that
is continually charged. This turns the Earth into a motor and the
rotation increases tremendously over several days until the
continent breaks up from the stress and the pole shifts.  Some
escape in a shuttle to the last starship to leave.  A few survive in
a submarine.

When the starship returns, 2200 years later (ain't relativity
great), the genetic engineer that stayed in the sub has created a
new race of men from his own cells and also immortality for himself
(Adam and Eve with himself as God).  In the process of cleaning up
some excess carbon-14 from the avalanche, the Earth must be flooded
(Noah's Arc).

The genetic engineer decides to take his favorite of the new-men
with him to the colony planet. (The Lord so loved Enoch that he
often walked with him.  And one day the Lord took Enoch up into the
heavens with him. [paraphrased]).

(*** end spoiler ***)

Some scientific details are rather sketchy, and some unexplained,
but generally the story is fairly good. Like I said above, my major
gripe is that major aspects of the biblical myth are explained by
the archaeologist, which should have been told from the point of view
of the scientists in the past.  This was done to reduce the length
to novelette (novella?) in size, I'm sure.

I would like to start a list of stories and novels that offer
explanations of myths (Atlantis, the Bible, etc.).  Please send your
favorites to my address and I will post a list.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum\@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  8 Jan 1986 05:07:17-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Spider Robinson & ANTINOMY

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>         While it is true that Antinomy is now a rare book ( the
> publishing house folded while the first edition was being printed),

Not so. It was published by Dell Books, which is still a very
healthy publishing company. It's possible that you're confusing
their ceasing their science fiction line with their folding
completely.  Dell never was very enthusiastic about publishing sf.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 86 10:39:13 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #5
From: hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

>From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
>I would like to knopw if anyone out there knows the other two
>titles of a trilogy in which one of the title is _A Dark Star
>Passes_.  It concerns a group of young scientists (one of the names
>is Morrey (sp)) their inventions and inter-galactic exploits.  I am
>afraid I don't remember the author either.  Any help would be
>appreciated.

The answer to the question is:

        THE BLACK STAR PASSES
        THE ISLANDS OF SPACE
        INVADERS FROM THE INFINITE

        Arcot, Wade, and Morey are the three young scientists.
Space Opera with a lot of synthetic jargon.

        Written by John Campbell, jr., before he became an editor.
(In the 1930s!)

------------------------------

From: cfa!mink@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Mink)
Subject: Re: name of movie (Silent Running)
Date: 8 Jan 86 19:06:14 GMT

> The movie you described is "Silent Running", made in 1972.  It was
> produced and the special effects were done by Douglass Trumbull,
> who also had a hand in the special effects of "2001: A Space
> Odyssey", which was made in 1968.

It is my understanding that one of the reasons Trumbull made this
film was to show Stanley Kubrick that Saturn and its rings could be
simulated.  Kubrick didn't believe they could and moved the monolith
in "2001" from Iapetus, a satellite of Saturn, to an orbit around
Jupiter.  In my opinion, Trumbull succeeded.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jan 86 11:37 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Lensman

Andrew Jonathan Fine asked whether the Lensman series might be 
translated into a series of movies, or comics.  I understand that an 
animated version of The Lensman has already been produced in Japan; I
believe that a Japanese-language version with English subtitles has
seen some limited distribution here in the U.S., but it's probably
pretty difficult to find.  I haven't seen any of it myself, but it was
mentioned at an animated-film screening I attended at A Change of
Hobbit in LA about a year ago.  Check with your local comic/animated
fan club... they might be able to give you some leads.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 86 09:35:33 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Prisioner and number 6
From: jackson.PARC@Xerox.ARPA

>Sorry to put this in VERY LATE. This show was made as the "Fifth"
>man of the Philby/Maclean/Burgress ... spy ring (Real World British
>Intelligence) was being "found". I have frequently believed that
>Number "6" refered to a mythical "sixth" man.

Sorry, Patrick McGoohan cites his inspiration as the phrase "six of
one, half a dozen of the other".

stephen jackson

------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Women in sf/fantasy
Date: 6 Jan 86 22:06:32 GMT

   There has been a great deal of discussion/debate in this group
and others about feminist Science Fiction writers, and strong female
protaganists created by authors of either gender. As I find the
whole subject of human sexuality fascinating, I have followed the
discussion and read many of the authors mentioned such as Russ,
Bradley, Lynn, etc.  I must say that I have enjoyed each of their
works very much.  But it seems that a euphemism for "strong female
protaganist" in their works, and in the various postings, is
"Lesbian Protaganist" or "Bisexual Protaganist".

   OK. That doesn't bother me at all because some of the most
interesting and intelligent women I have known in my life have been
lesbian, or bi.  I personally feel that a women's sexual preferences
are part of her psyche, and immaterial (unless she's a sexual
partner of mine) to our rapport.

   However, I seem to be finding women in science fiction more and
more (also in general fiction) who are bi/gay. And sometimes
unexpectedly by non-feminist writers. This gives one pause, and I
would like to pose some questions to the readers of this group(s).

1. Is this perceived by the majority as the future of female
sexuality?

2. Is this merely a reflection of todays "Bisexual Chic"?

3. Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men
without being bi/gay?

4. Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi?
Straight?

5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi?
Straight?

6. Would you prefer male heros to be gay? Bi? Straight?

7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists
even when plainly detailed on the cover?

   If this topic interests you, answer by e-mail and I will
summarize to the group(s) in about three or four weeks.

Hank Buurman       ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 86 11:27 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: More comments on Feminism and SF

I agree that martial arts sometime tend toward grace and ballet, but
I also agree with Charlie Martin's remarks in that regard.  My own
experience with martial arts, though short term, is in Shotokan and
I was not taught ballet, but rather how to defeat your opponent no
matter how large, mean, armed, or whatever.  In fact, my instructor
had a distinct disdain for fancy moves.  Such martial art staples as
the flying drop kick were thought to be pure theatre, and not very
useful in a real fight.  Incidentally, my instructor was very "real
fight" experienced, and about 5'3" tall.  And his best student was a
5'6" asthmatic "Southern Belle" type.  She could certainly generate
the "considerable degree of force" required.

As far as SF is concerned (or any genre), it doesn't follow that a
book that doesn't have women swinging battle-axes is "chauvinistic".
Your comment about Larry Niven includes a very important statement:
"strong female characters occur".  My concept of chauvinist SF would
not have any strong female characters.  Any female characters would
be there to be protected, romanced, raped, or whatever, by the male
characters.  Conversely, feminist fiction doesn't have heavily armed
women running around killing everything that wears pants.  Feminist
fiction has better things to say than "Woman can kill, maim, and
cause blood to spurt just as well as a man can." Such as "There are
better things to do with ones time than killing, maiming, and
causing blood to spurt."

     Brett Slocum
     (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS)

P.S. Been off the ARPANET for about two weeks, so this is a little
old.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 8 Jan 86 01:14:07-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: sexual slant in SF books

     Come now.  Many people who read SF like to envision themselves
in the story.  It's difficult to do so if all the characters engage
in sexual practices the reader finds repulsive.  Let's face it; a
very large number of people consider sexual relations with somebody
other than of that person's preferred gender to be repulsive or at
least unimaginable.

     And before I hear the tiresome orchestrated "homophobe"
response, allow me to point out that a large number of people also
find graphic depictions of rape to be repulsive.

     Sex is something that people have *powerful* feelings about.
It is just as ridiculous to call a heterosexual close-minded for
being disinterested in reading about gay sex as are the misguided
attempts to "cure" homosexuals that until recently appeared to have
been relegated to the garbage heap of history.

     I feel that most people are willing to accept the existence of
alternative sexual behavior from their own (Anita Bryant and Jerry
Falwell get most of their followers from the ignorant and
low-class).  However, many people prefer to restrict their intake of
explicit sexual material to that of their own preference.

     I for one would not knowingly buy an SF book that had graphic
sexual contents that was exclusively gay.  I'd find the sexual
material either boring or repulsive and it would be enough to turn
me off to the entire book.  It's also somewhat out of context with
reality; gays are only 15% or so of the general population.
Exclusively gay societies are unlikely to exist because (in general)
gays don't reproduce and even when they do, 85% of the children turn
out to be straight.

     I was quite able to enjoy McCaffrey's dragonrider books, even
though most of the male dragonriders are (because of their dragon's
needs) bisexual.  Perhaps some readers would have appreciated some
details about brown/green matings or were disappointed with F'nor
for weyring with Brekke...it was fine with me the way it was.

     I am quite willing to believe that gays may find a lot of
straight-oriented sexual SF material to be repulsive.  I'm afraid
the answer is the same as it is to straights who encounter
gay-oriented sexual SF material: read something else.  There is
quite enough non-sexual SF to spend a lifetime reading.  If you want
sex with your SF, you have to look for what fits your own interests.

Mark

PS: Somebody mentioned the PMRC...personally, I think it's an
outstanding idea to rate records.  Now the teenagers who are trying
to buy X-rated records (that is, the vast majority of teenagers)
won't be deceived into buying some dreck that happens to have a sexy
cover.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jan 86 1340-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 11 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Brust & Delany,
                      Television - Overdrawn at the Memory Bank,
                      Miscellaneous - Sex in SF (2 msgs) &
                              Descriptions in Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 86 07:52:50 PST (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust

Dan,

I disagree with your negative review of Brokedown Palace. I enjoyed
it thoroughly. Rather than an attempt to emulate a Zelazny novel, it
rather attempts to emulate the classic style of european fairy tales
and allegories.  The reason this style is classic is because it
works well to convey morals and messages without being heavy handed.
I thought he pulled it off rather well.

****** Possible Spoiler Ahead *******

The story must be read not as a literal plot, but as an allegory
about duty, strength, loyalty, and rationality.  The book makes fine
points about how, while all of these virtues are to be cultivated,
one virtue carried to extremes is a vice in itself.  The subtle
nature of allegory often precludes heavy detailing or
characterization.  These things are almost always subordinated to
the theme being illustrated.

Calling Miklos a 'lump' is hardly fair treatment of a character who
must play the part of the balanced man. Everyman was hardly a
dazzling hero full of surprises, nor was the plot of that allegory
convoluted and endowed with a surprising twist.  Everyman would have
failed as an adventure tale or comedy, but has endured for centuries
because of the basic ethical themes it illustrates.  Brokedown
Palace may have a similar place one day.

Kurt

------------------------------

From: cstvax!db@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 6 Jan 86 14:27:18 GMT

hsf@hlexa.UUCP (Henry Friedman) writes:
>1) Should ads for novels at least suggest whether the sex/romance
>   is predominantly straight or gay?  (I don't think this would be
>   necessary if the main themes are not romantic, such as novels
>   about social/political oppression.)

AHEM - gay people are socially oppressed all over the world, and
politically oppressed in most places. (I guess SF & LA may be
exceptions to this).

Anyway, the main theme of "Stars in my Pocket ..." isn't romantic,
at least I didn't think so.  It's about the uncertainty surrounding
language; the family vs. the SIGN, the linguistic WEB (an image he
used in Babel 17).  The central character is called Marq Dyeth (MARK
DIE-ETH, geddit?).  The "romantic" bits are more concerned with
sexuality than romance - which sexual practices are tolerated in
different societies, how people react to this.

>4) Do I have a point in objecting to the way the book club
>   advertised the book?

No.  Gayness is perfectly normal, and shouldn't require any warning
notices, bell-ringing, or crying of "unclean, unclean".

>5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it transcended
>   such considerations?

No.  I don't think a book ever transcends the considerations you
apply when you read.  If you mean "was it so good in other ways that
these considerations are outweighed", that's for you to decide.
Since you only read half of it, I guess for you it wasn't "great
literature".

I think it's Delany's worst book since babel-17.  It preaches too
much (the epilogue is particularly bad at this).  Parts of it are
brilliant, but overall I rate it lower than his other recent stuff
(still worth reading though - I rate Delany pretty highly!)

Try "Neveryona" for similar ideas done better, and with less gay
content.  You probably want to miss "Flight from Neveryon" though -
it's much more explicit than "Stars in my Pocket ...".

Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh
...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@caip.rutgers.edu (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank  (also for J.B. Hunter)
Date: 8 Jan 86 19:14:50 GMT

pete@stc.UUCP writes:
>A TV programme by this name is being shown on Channel 4 next
>Saturday. I believe it originated in the US.
>
>2 questions:-
>   1) Is it an adaptation of the John Varley story of the same
>      name?

Yes.

>   2) Will a John Varley fan (i.e. me) writhe, swear and
>      tear his hair out if he watches it?

Probably.

I'm also a Varley fan and I've seen the TV adaptation.  In my
opinion it definitely does not do justice to Varley's work.  The
general plot line is the same, in a vague sort of way, but many key
points have been removed or drastically altered.  Among other
things, the entire society in which the story takes place has been
transformed into a 1984ish dystopia that has no relation to Varley's
universe.

I don't remember many of the other alterations (it's been at least a
year), but I do remember disliking the TV version.  I even posted
something here to that effect at the time.


Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 86  9:14:19 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
Subject: Tilting at Slants in Books

Re the discussion of sexual slants, and covers disclaimers: There's
a lot of things I wouldn't mind seeing disclaimers about on the
bookcovers.  I have a feeling we don't all have the same list in
mind, however.  I'm a lot less concerned about the topology of
characters going at it, for example, than their motivations or
methods; e.g., Delaney vs John Norman.  Or the quality of the
writing.

Disclaimers I could see, personally:

  o  WARNING: Part of a Series.
  o  WARNING: Related stories but not really a novel.
  o  WARNING: Completely unrelated stories; not a novel at all.
  o  WARNING: Badly written.
  o  WARNING: Old stories cleverly repackaged to look like a new
     book.
  o  WARNING: Written by somebody who doesn't know any science
  o  WARNING: Another Tolkein imitation
  o  WARNING: Overly short manuscript padded using large type and
     lotsa graphics
  o  If you like early Heinlein, you'll love this.
  o  Caution: Features strong, sensible women
  o  WARNING: Cowboys on Mars
  o  Caution: You may not like this book, but that doesn't mean it's
     bad.
etc.

For an even more Delany recommendation, try HEAVENLY BREAKFAST, a
comparatively short recounting of his days in the rock group/commune
of the same name.  You can see a lot of the sources for Dhalgren
here.  A clear, enjoyable book.

(Note: I waded through SIMPLGOS, but don't anticipate trying it
again, at least not this decade.  There were a few interesting
parts/ideas, but it was like trying to drive through traffic the day
before Thanksgiving as the snow begins to deepen.  Mind you, this is
the opinion of somebody who rereads DHALGREN ever year or two.  I
think Delany isn't always sure whether he's trying to write the
actual story, or make some esoteric first-derivative point via the
text -- the NEVERYONIA books case in point.  But hey, he's certainly
trying for bigger targets.)

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 8 Jan 86 18:33:33 GMT

MRC@PANDA writes:
>It's also somewhat out of context with reality; gays are only 15%
>or so of the general population.  Exclusively gay societies are
>unlikely to exist because (in general) gays don't reproduce and
>even when they do, 85% of the children turn out to be straight.

   But the 85% figure would only be true for predominantly
heterosexual societies.  I'd reckon that the reverse would be true
for a gay society, what with social norms, etc.  At any rate,
anybody writing a book about a gay society had darn well better have
an explanation for reproduction, be it sexual or whatever.

>     I was quite able to enjoy McCaffrey's dragonrider books, even
>though most of the male dragonriders are (because of their dragon's
>needs) bisexual.  Perhaps some readers would have appreciated some
>details about brown/green matings...

   Hmmm... I'll have to read those again.  I didn't at all catch the
implication that when dragons mated, the 'riders did also.  Was I
exceedingly obtuse both times I read the books, or did others also
not make this connection/assumption?

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

P.S. Add me to the list of those who finished SIMPLGOS.  I enjoyed
it, but admit to not understanding all of it.  I'm looking forward
to the next book.

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Description is necessary, even in science fiction
Date: 8 Jan 86 19:36:12 GMT

>. ".Which brings us back to Liz Lynn's work, specifically with
>matters of sexuality. Too often she creates characters who are
>almost smugly at peace with themselves. Who gives a damn? I don't
>want to read about a happy homosexual, any more than I want to read
>about a happy heterosexual--at least, I don't want to read about
>their sex life if it's working fine.  If there are no problems, why
>bring it up?  (And not just internal problems, of course.  Problems
>with outsiders or persecution or whatever count, but those also
>have internal implications.)  So if a character's sexuality is
>important enough to bring it into the story, then it should AFFECT
>the story importantly. This may be too rigorous a standard, of
>course.  Remember, I'm the guy who excises every shred of
>description that isn't essential to the plot.  You never even know
>the color of ENDER WIGGINS' hair during two long novels.  So I have
>a bias against inclusion of gratuitous material of any type.)..."
>
> Orson Scott Card, reprinted via David Dalton

Card glosses over what is so often lost in modern fiction, and
modern science fiction particularly: the *lack* of description. It
is important, in many novels, to get across atmosphere. You don't do
this with dialogue, with narrative point-of-view, or with exposition
(the bane of science fiction is the Expository Break). You do it
with description. Otherwise, the writer has done little more than
write a screenplay for a director to flesh out.  Why did Tolstoy
bother to describe Anna Karenina's eyes to us? Why did Melville
describe Billy Budd in aching detail? Why did Dickens describe Uriah
Heep down to the last disgusting quirk? It was, and is, important to
be able to fully visualize an important character if for nothing
else than to define them as real, living, flawed, human beings. So
many modern novels barely pause to let the reader catch his breath -
Luc Sante hit the nail on the head when he called it "word-processor
style" - short paragraphs, inattention to previous detail,
hurriedness, and callousness towards characters, even when
sympathetically portrayed. It seems to be at the root, a response in
print to America's increasing love affair with the television, the
video recorder, and the movie. As we as a society cast off print and
become visually and aurally oriented, we accept the language of film
and television more readily than that of print (as McLuhan
suggested).  In other words, perhaps it is no longer necessary for
most people to have a chair described to them, because the visual
image of a chair is already very concrete and defined, and
reinforced with daily viewing of chairs in all kinds of
circumstances. People become more used to the hurried pace of visual
media, and are bored with what once was considered adequate
description in a novel, description which takes a second (at most)
in a film. This is merely a progression, and not necessarily a bad
one. But the problem is that when description is absolutely vital,
it is wan, thin, and insubstantial. Mood and atmosphere can be
communicated in a film without the viewer being consciously aware,
without any time hardly being taken out from the story line at all -
Hitchcock's threatening house in "Psycho", Capra's Main Street in
"It's A Wonderful Life", Weir's barnbuilding in "Witness". A writer
owes it to readers to establish such a mood and define things
exactly in order not to cheat them of such resonance.

Nowadays, our characters are defined by what they do, what they
beleive in, and (if we are lucky) by what they think. We rarely get
to see the look on the other person's face, furrowed in
concentration, sweating a little underneath the eyes, with a strand
of hair blowing in the slight breeze of a ship at anchor against the
ebb tide. Our adjectives have been pared down, like reading a book
from Orwell's society, everything simplified to "double-plus-ungood"
from "ghastly" or "horrid" or "terrible".  If langauge and
vocabulary are not used, they atrophy and wither away.  I wanted to
know Ender's hair color, I wanted to know what his face looked like,
what color his eyes were, what his sweat smelled like, I wanted him
to be real and breathing, not an abstraction of the
warrior-innocent, the child of war. This is all good and well in
escapist, juvenile literature where people don't sweat and no one is
ugly unless they're Bad Guys. In "Ender's Game" (the novella), Card
gets away with this because children often don't recall such things
as the color of someone's hair - or else they forget later on, as
they grow older - and his story was of children, and could
reasonably be told in a child-like manner as regards description.  I
think of Orwell, and his giant talent for description coupled with
his sensitive social conscience, who described to us a society of
blandness, of oppressive sameness, of subtle and dreary
brutalization, and yet he made it vivid, and real, and powerful,
visceral. You felt Winston facing the rats.

Description, even when seemingly superfluous on first reading, is
often the glue that holds a tale together, that keeps the authorial
intent clear and apparent without being overbearing. You can only
talk of ideas for so long, and then it gets pedantic. Just as you
can only describe trees for so long and get boring. In a short
story, the ruthless elimination of detail is often necessary, but
too many of our novels read like long short stories.  Women are
described as being beautiful, without our being able to form our own
opinion of beauty directed, of course, by the author's description.
This casting-off of description often leads authors into the
wasteland of "idea literature", without being able to make it real.
An author must be able to make his readers feel pain, and failure,
and success, and hatred and joy and the gamut of human emotion, and
description is the key to this, even when it seems unnecessary. For
all his faults, Hunter Thompson has this gift of description, and is
successful because of this, no matter how warped and twisted his
descriptions are, they taste of the real because he *bothers* to
describe things to us. You see, if I say something is blood red, and
one hundred pages on it is purple, that requires tedious re-reading.
If I never describe it at all, I have less work to do. And I have
accomplished less, and in some sense I have failed because I have
left too much up to the reader's imagination, and not given him the
resonance and meaning that great description can do. To say
something is blood red is to bring up images of death, pain, and
war. To say that it is merely red is to leave the image up to the
reader, or to deny that it has any meaning whatsoever, even when it
might. Our adjectives are leaving us, slowly and surely, and they
sail away on a rusty freighter flying a plague flag, out of the
dying port of a nation conquered one hundred years ago in a horrible
war of attrition and starvation, sailing into a polluted sunset over
an oily sea.

Davis Tucker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jan 86 1408-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 12 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anthony & Chalker & Donaldson &
                      Geston & Lee & LeGuin,
              Films - Lensman,
              Television - Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (2 msgs)
              Miscellaneous - Sex in SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jhunix!ecf_awjb@caip.rutgers.edu (William J. Bogstad)
Subject: Piers Anthony (comment on his trilogies)
Date: 9 Jan 86 06:30:06 GMT

        I have read both Fantasy and Science Fiction by Piers
Anthony and have discovered something that bothers me.  In general,
I find that I enjoy his first work in a series, but the following
works are much less enjoyable then the first.  In some cases, the
subsequent works appear to be literary clones of the first with the
same basic plot and character types.  I realize that latter works in
a series often fall prey to this problem, but wondered if anyone
else finds Piers Anthony to be particularly prone to this problem.

Bill Bogstad
bogstad@hopkins-eecs.bravo.arpa
seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_awjb

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!stacie@caip.rutgers.edu (Stacie McGill)
Subject: Identity Matrix
Date: 9 Jan 86 18:29:30 GMT

I just started "Identity Matrix" by Jack L. Chalker having enjoyed
other of his books.  Chapter One has a glaring typo that I just had
to note here,
 "The girl there is the son of a Big Shot.."  I mean really.  All
this time and I thought a girl was considered a daughter.  Of course
with Chalker you never know.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 86 11:25 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

> Does anyone know if there is ever going to be a seventh book in the
> Thomas Covenant series...?

God, I hope not.  I think Donaldson has already beat this horse to
death.  Don't get me wrong, though. I really liked the first
trilogy.  I never finished the second trilogy.  I would like
Donaldson to write more stories based in the Land, or other areas in
this world, but I hope he writes about some other era and some other
characters.

How about the story of Berek Halfhand, or other pre-history.  I, for
one, would like to see more of the giants.  Maybe, tell the story of
their journey to the Land.

   Brett Slocum
   (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Jan 1986 04:05:23-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Mark Geston

> From: redford%jeremy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John Redford)
> Does anyone know anything about Geston himself?  I've never seen
> him at cons.

According to Robert Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY
LITERATURE, VOLUME 2: CONTEMPORARY SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS II
(Detroit: Gale, 1979), Geston is an attorney in Boise, Idaho.  His
interests are listed as being "skiing, history, sick humor, and
Coors."

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 86 01:18:38 pst
From: stever@cit-vlsi.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )

(to George Robbins):
I agree with you that "Days of Grass" was lousy by Tanith Lee
standards.  Let me recommend several of her better books instead:

"Day by Night" - similar to, yet different from,
                  Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows".  (thanks dsf)

"Electric Forrest" - The story of a freak who is so ugly that
                     everyone calls her by the name "Ugly", and of
                     an unusually handsome scientist who wants a
                     volunteer for an experiment..

"To Kill The Dead" - The best ghost story I've ever read.
                     This is Lee's best book.

Incidentally, the title "Days of Grass" comes from the Bible, and is
the title of many other works, including a really fantastic short
story by RA Lafferty (in "Ringing Changes").

s

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 86 08:11 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: LeGuin's Always Coming Home

*Mild Spoilers of content (though not of plot) follow*

A comment in a posting on another subject prompted me to tell of my
impression of LeGuin's latest novel, "Always Coming Home". From the
cover blurbs and the admittedly brief mention of the book in the
media, I was lead to believe that this was LeGuin's greatest novel -
her best work of all time. I'm sorry, but I was disappointed.

First, the book is not really a novel. As is explained in the
Introduction, the book is a future archaeology. There is one story
that is the largest part of the book, and by itself it would make a
short novel or a novella. However, the book also includes other
material to round out the picture of the future society that is its
main focus.  There is poetry, and there are descriptions of many
facets of the society, including naming conventions, music, artwork,
and technology.  And yes, this is the book that comes with a
cassette tape including examples of the music and speech described
in the book.

The fact that the book was not really a novel was not really a
problem.  For the most part LeGuin has done her job well, as
everything is well-worked out, consistent, and interesting. The main
problem is that it feels as though one is reading an editorial in
the newspaper. LeGuin has created a Utopia, and in describing it
proceeds to critique modern civilization quite severely. The
heavy-handed social commentary was too much for me; I do not mind
criticism of society, or books with a MESSAGE, but this was too
much. As a matter of fact, I agree with much of what she has to say
- I just don't like the way she says it.

The non-novel aspects of the book would have made good background
for LeGuin to use in writing a number of stories. However, there are
a number of short sections wherein LeGuin (calling herself Pandora)
addresses the reader directly. This is a stylistic device that I
could have done without. Also, I found the tape recording boring and
artificial sounding.

To situate my opinions, I will say that I enjoyed the Earthsea
trilogy immensely, and that I found Malfarena interesting if a bit
dry. I could not stomach The Disposessed at all. So, the end result
is that I do not recommend this book.

Dave

PS If someone has a more favorable opinion of this book, I would
like to see it.

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh)
Subject: Re: Lensman in Video
Date: 8 Jan 86 15:08:28 GMT

The _Lensman_ movie was released in theaters in Japan in August of
1984, and was subsequently released for purchase on videotape.  A
set of three comicbooks was printed, following the movie action
step-for-step, by Kodansha comics company, and is only available in
Japanese. Furthermore, following the Japanese tradition of milking a
product for all it's worth, a teevee series was created and released
last spring, along with the inevitable models, toys, and action
figures! The television series, however, followed the plot of the
book _Galactic_Patrol_, and was fairly accurate, as it included
Mentor et al.

Those interested in obtaining the comicbooks, translations of the
movie/comicbooks, or copies (VHS or BETA) of the movie or the
television series, please write to me at the address below, and
we'll discuss possibilities!

FIFTH AMENDMENT DISCLAIMER: I do not engage in the illegal
disribution of copyrighted materials. All translations are strictly
"my own best interpretation" and not intended to be definitive movie
scripts.

Sue Shambaugh
221 St. Paul
Baltimore, MD 21218

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish)
Subject: Re: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank
Date: 8 Jan 86 20:49:43 GMT

I saw that movie on PBS one night.  Now I have never read the story,
but it is the one by Varley, who incidently did the screenplay (I
think).  The production was a little cheap( a la PBS) but overall
the show was excellent!

Darren Kadish

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 86 04:10:59 est
From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
Subject: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank

Oh it's bad. Oh God, it's bad. It stinks more than a 2-day old fish.
All the interesting details from the story have been diked out and
replaced with a straight "man against giant corporation" story.  A
great deal of the action takes place inside the set to Casablanca,
which is a main fixation of Finagle (Raoul Julia). In fact, calling
up said movie on his video display instead of doing work is what
gets him sent to Disneyland Kenya. Sound like the story? I think
not...

Gone is Finagle's accelerated computer course, "accidents" with the
main computer, etc. DON'T WATCH THIS MOVIE.

And there's no spoiler warning on this 'cause you can't spoil crap.

                           James Turner
ARPA     ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
         decvax  \
         sri-unix \
UUCP               !cca!ringwld!jmturn
         ima      /
         linus   /
MAIL     329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

From: cstvax!db@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry)
Subject: Re: Sexual Slant in Novels - "Stars in My Pocket..."
Date: 6 Jan 86 15:41:32 GMT

rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes:
>Disclosing sexual bias in a book?  Advertising its sexuality?  Hey,
>what is this?  [...]  Apply any of these recommendations to books
>"slanted" to heterosexuality (god forbid!); the result would be
>clearly perceived as off the wall, AND obnoxious by more than a few
>readers.

Too right.

>Why do publishers have any economic interest in "advertising" the
>book's sexuality?  They'd probably lose money if they adopted such
>a policy.  Finally, it betrays a lack of knowledge of publishing:
>publishers are legally free to put anything they like on book
>covers; not even the author has ANY control over what goes on them.
>The disclaimers being suggested are not only utterly irrelevant to
>publishing practices, they imply a warped kind of public service at
>odds with what publishing houses see as effective and appropriate
>cover advertising.

What the @#$! has the current legal position in the USA got to do
with what *should* be the case?  The guy doesn't have a lack of
knowledge about publishing, he obviously knows people CAN do this.
He's asking if a) he was deceived (I don't think so) b) publishers
*should* be allowed to deceive (I don't think this, either)

>Given the superficiality of many readers' aims, positive deception
>is valuable in LURING readers into buying and reading books.  Think
>of how many of the classics of world literature have to be
>"marketed" to get people to consider looking at them at all.

Marketing is one thing, deception is another.  I don't think the
case under discussion involves deception, but I'd be really pissed
off if I spent money on something that promised to be one thing and
didn't deliver.

>Nowadays, the way to do it is to turn the book into a teleplay for
>Masterpiece Theater with lots of production value and famous
>actors.

If they can get it past the censors.  Very few gay plays make it
onto British television.  Even Channel 4 only gets as far as showing
some existing gay films.

>So, since when has honesty been a policy in publishing?  Why should
>it be?  Who wants it to be (certainly not prospective readers!)?

The original poster, and I (both prospective readers).

Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh
...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish)
Subject: Re: Sex in books
Date: 8 Jan 86 20:56:56 GMT

Have you looked at the paperback section of any bookstore...or any
foodstore for that matter? Take a close look. Pick up a book. Look
at the cover.  What do you see? Open the book. Any page.  Read a
page. What does it say?

My point is that today's literature is overwhelmingly sexually
oriented.  Things that would have been scandalous ten years ago are
commonplace.  Some of these books make Peyton Place look like a G
rated movie.  Don't blame the Science fictioon writers.  They are
just catering to the demands of the public (something all writers
must do if they like to eat.)  You may not personally approve, so
don't read their books, but you may miss some good science fiction
if you are unwilling to wade through a little gratuitous sex.  It
won't kill you you know :-)

Darren Kadish

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Should book ads disclose sexual slant?
Date: 7 Jan 86 21:27:33 GMT

oliver@unc.UUCP (Bill Oliver) writes:
>oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev [ME] ) writes:
>>>2) Should it make any difference? In other words, should it have
>>>   mattered to me?
>>I don't see why... Sex is sex....
>
>As a case in point, all sex is not just sex. Whether it be
>heterosexual(1), homosexual(2), or autoerotic(3), there are a wide
>class of sexual activities which either represent profound
>emotional disease or are simply evil. To fear to express
>disapproval of an act for fear of appearing intolerant is a form of
>moral cowardice.

We are talking of fairly staright forward gay sex here - NOT
anything "EVIL" or emotionally sick ( unles you call homosexuality
and autoeroticism "SICK" and/or "EVIL"). If the characters in the
book are gay - I'd expect them to practice gay sex. If the
characters in the book are slimy slugs - I expect THEIR sexual
practices to be slimy slug ones. If the book unnecessarily
overemphasizes the erotic and sexual aspects and becomes
pornographic - that's one thing. If the author has included an
erotic scene as a means to better define the characters and their
relationships - that's a totally different situation.

>[ A LENGTHY PARABLE TO SHOW THAT THE ***REVIEW*** SHOULD HAVE
>MENTIONED ] [ THE HOMOSEXUAL SLANT OF THE BOOK ] It is not your
>responsibility to keep tabs on the sexual proclivities of all those
>who put pen to paper.  An adequate book review should have
>reflected the contents of the book.

It's NOT book review we are talking about - it's the blurbs on the
cover and the back of the book.( OR *WAS* it a review ? If it was -
ignore this paragraph) The cover blurbs usually give you a GENERAL
idea about the GENERAL direction of the book. Since I have learned
to read English (I still have not learned to write ;-) I have bought
close to a dosen books based on their cover blurbs and a quick scan
of the writing style - and found them very dissatisfying and boring
to the point where I could not bring myself to finish them. Out of
250-300 books - that's not a bad ratio! Those WERE paperbacks, tho'.
If they were hardcover editions that I have payed $14-$18 for - I'd
be upset too....

>To claim that an adequate book review is censorship is to argue
>that we should buy and read books randomly - a waste of time,
>effort, and money.

I agree to some extend - but who's responsibility is it to seek out
the reviews? The reader's or the book distributor's? Adequate book
review is a great thing. Expecting an in-depth review from a short
blurb is absurd.  Most often the book and record clubs grace only
the "selection of the month" items with reviews. (I could be wrong -
I have not joined ALL the clubs out there :-)

>>>5) Was the book such a work of creative genious that it
>>>   transcended such considerations?
>>Don't know, have not read it (yet?).
>
>A book rarely transcends its content.

HUH? Tell that to the readers of the Bible - it has a few VERY
graphic sex scenes in it ( and a large number of mass slaughter and
mayhem scenes). Then again, on THIS point I ***AGREE*** with you.

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 86 1406-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & LeGuin & Lustbader &
                       Story Request & Two Reviews,
               Films - Bladerunner & Klaus Kinski & Lensman,
              Radio - Radio Drama Ideas,
              Miscellaneous - Children Believing What They See &
                       Sex in SF & Waves in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Anthony
Date: 6 Jan 86 13:57:40 GMT

grr@unirot.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>I can't be sure, since I decided quite a while ago that Anthony
>seems to have the same disease as Farmer, ie spewing endlessly
>while never getting beyond being cute and/or clever.

Not quite; _On a Pale Horse_ has some real meat to it.  Books 2 and
3 in that series don't, however.  I'll still read the last two in
hopes that there is something there, but I'm prepared for the worst.

Frank Adams
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 86 11:31 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: OOPS - previous message

I goofed. I said that I couldn't stomach The Dispossessed. I meant
to say that I didn't like The Left Hand Of Darkness. I am confused
because someone was just recently recommending The Dispossessed to
me; I haven't read the Dispossessed yet.

Sorry,

Dave

------------------------------

From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh)
Subject: Sunset Warrior Tril & slightly re: Feminism & SF
Date: 10 Jan 86 00:16:24 GMT

   Speaking of Lustbader (Eric Von Lustbader I believe), How many of
you have read the _Sunset Warrior_ Trilogy & _Beneath an Opal Moon_.
Despite some obtuseness with the dolman at the end of the last book
(of the trilogy) which I didn't quite understand I quite enjoyed
these, there are powerfull women characters, just enough eroticism
to make it interesting (not overbearing), good fighting, Oriental
settings, and an interesting world make this series one of my
favorites.  I highly recommend it.  Any others?

*** Slight spoiler ***
o How was Friedal actually able to find/follow Rhonin in the feluca.

o What did Rhonin's feluca collide with? (Could it really have been
  Friedal's feluca?)

o What was the purpose of the whole scene with Rhonin and Moichi
  after the ship reck, on the Island with XXXXXX (some weird names
  I cant remember).

Maybe later some more Qs will come to me.  Again I recommend these
books.  One of my favorite pastimes when I read them is trying to
decide which parts of the real Earth match the book's geography.

Also to anyone who has read his other stuff also, _Ninja_ etc... is
it any good to an Sf lover, no romances please I can't stand too
much mush.

dave schuh
!uwvax!geowhiz!schuh

------------------------------

From: ukc!djw1@caip.rutgers.edu (D.J.Webb)
Subject: Request for story title.
Date: 10 Jan 86 11:52:37 GMT

        Could anyone provide me with the author and title of an sf
story concerning the climbing of a 200,000 ft mountain which turns
out to have a lift up the centre of it? The name of the mountain was
Purgatory, I think.
        Please reply by mail to save cluttering up the net.
        Thanks - Dave.

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: _Wizard of the Pigeons_ and new Tepper book
Date: 9 Jan 86 20:04:01 GMT

Megan Lindholm, _Wizard of the Pigeons_, Ace Fantasy,
    ISBN 0-441-89467-4
Sheri S. Tepper, _Marianne, the Magus and the Manticore_,
    Ace Fantasy, ISBN 0-441-51944-X

  I'm a fan of Tepper, so I bought her latest book despite the
annoying cover and back cover blurbs.  The cover has a rather lurid
painting of a woman on the back of a Chimera and the back cover
blurb is an annoying analgram of the plot.  You can safely ignore
both.

(* slight spoiler -- introduction to the plot *)

  The story itself is fascinating.  I was glued to the book from the
start till nearly the end.  Marianne is a graduate student in
ethnology who discovers that she is related to the ruling family of
a small European country when the Prime Minister of the country
arrives to give a lecture at her college.  Though shy of personal
relationships, she warms to him.  He is Makr Ahvel, a Magus, and
when he visits her apartment he finds the gifts she has recently
received from her half-brother ominous.  Taken as a whole they
represent a powerful malign enchantment.  Startled to find this kind
of thing, Makr Ahvel becomes more involved with the girl and
together they are drawn into false worlds and strange happenings.

  My only objections to this excellent book are the packaging, which
I've already put down, and the ending, which like so much of the
fantasy printed today, has sequel written all over it.

  The Mindholm book I bought because of Steven Brust's
recommendation: "The blend of action and sensitivity that I've come
to expect from Ms.  Lindholm and much more.  Beauty, terror, and
wonder.  This is a truly excellent book."

  I couldn't agree more.  I like the premise, too, which is that
some of the bums you see around the city are actually wizards of
different sorts, who make their lives in other ways, ways less
congenial to modern life.  The title character is one such person.
His gift is to be able to always give a truthful answer to questions
put to him.  Not always a useful gift.  But like all magic, it has
its rules and limitations.  Soon the Wizard finds his rules being
broken, and he loses his magic, existing in a shadowy realm between
worlds while the wizards and the modern day world fight for his
identity.

  Another excellent book.  Read these two books and see _Brazil_ for
a wonderful (but sometimes disturbing) weekend of alternate views of
reality.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA  (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
FISHNET:  ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 11 Jan 86 06:11:00 GMT

I know this note and its responses are obsolete but Blade Runner is
clearly the greatest science fiction film ever, it must be (and is)
better than the novel, though P.K. Dick's Do_Androids_Dream_Of_
Electric_Sheep?  has to be nominated for best SF book title honors.

Anyway....

Mike Krantz

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: Klaus Kinski
Date: 12 Jan 86 01:43:18 GMT

Wasn't Klaus Kinski also the protagonist of both "Fitzcaraldo" and
"Aguirre, the Wrath of God", both set in the Amazon basin, both
about (quite different) historical characters, and possibly both
directed by Werner Herzog?

John Quarterman,
UUCP:  {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Three queries answered
Date: 10 Jan 86 15:46:20 GMT



>From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
>Andrew Jonathan Fine asked whether the Lensman series might be
>translated into a series of movies, or comics.  I understand that
>an animated version of The Lensman has already been produced in
>Japan; I believe that a Japanese-language version with English
>subtitles has seen some limited distribution here in the U.S., but
>it's probably pretty difficult to find.  I haven't seen any of it
>myself, but it was mentioned at an animated-film screening I
>attended at A Change of Hobbit in LA about a year ago.  Check with
>your local comic/animated fan club... they might be able to give
>you some leads.

        I *have* seen it. The animation was quite good(most Japanese
animation is), but a Doc Smith fan probably will not like the
screenplay. Numerous changes were made to the concept. The Arisians
are played down, almost left out entirely. Kimball Kinnison does not
start out at the Patrol Academy, he is the son of a farmer who is
killed by the Boskonians and he takes off to get revenge(sort of
like Luke Skywalker). And the spaceships are *not* round/tear-drop
shaped.  The big dreadnaught(i can't remember the name) is shaped
like a giant tuning fork! And as for the nurse(?Clarissa), she is no
longer the fiesty, self-sufficient, independent woman of the books,
she has been turned into a standard helpless female in distress
type(all screams and such drek). If you watch it as something
unrelated to the Lensmen series it is probably a fairly decent
adventure in the Star Wars class, though still not great.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen
ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh)
Subject: Radio Drama
Date: 10 Jan 86 16:14:08 GMT

Hello netters:

     Having just had some really rotten kinds of life experiences
lately, I must lift myself from depression.  Hence....

     listening to NPR radio) has been to produce a radio drama.
Well, Now I intend to.

     I have several ideas I'd like to bounce off those of you might
have the same interests.

1) What do you think of a "long distance production" ie.  Radio
drama produced at long distance. The logistics are sticky but I
believe possible.  I'll discuss particulars only if people are
interested.  Although even if what I have in mind, a "networked
production" of radio drama (:-), is not feasable, other questions
here may interest you.

2) Does anyone have any ideas for a short story (preferably Sf) to
produce.  Once I had thought to do _Who Goes There_ (Campbell),
after the movie people told me flat out NO.  I searched for others,
currently _The Devil You Don't_ (Kieth Laumer) is my fav, however I
have not contacted him or his agents yet.  Ideally something in the
public domain, or specially written would be nice as then royalties
are avoided.  Are there any scenarists out there willing to try?

3) The stories should be suitable for radio adaption, To get a feel
for this listen to some of the stories on NPR like Hitchhiker's
Guide, Star Wars, Nightfall, etc...

4) Since I'm cross posting this to Star Trek, what do you trekkies
know about _Star Trek_ rights.  An idea that just hit me this
morning was that it would be nice to hear Star Trek adapted like
Star wars was (new stories of course).  Perhaps this is a ridiculous
notion as I'm sure Shatner, Nemoy, Kelly, wouldn't be involved,
would it still be Star Trek without them?  What legalistic problems
exist?  Perhaps you have ideas about this or other series that could
be adapted, (Conan comes to mind).

5) On legalities, if for instance someone were to write a Star Trek
scenario, produced, and broadcast it would there be trouble? ie is
the world of Star Trek all sewn up?

6) Ideally If this ever gets off the ground whether I do it locally
or long distance (really, I've got ideas that would probably work) I
would like to give it to NPR for distribution, Wow national fame for
those involved.

     Well are there any closet radio actors out there?  Anybody
interested?  Send mail or even discuss on the net although I'm not
sure what group to discuss this on.  This message is cross posted on
net.sf-lovers, net.startrek and net.movies (maybe a mistake) no
flames please.  I think this could work.  Thanks for your time (and
hopefully interest)

david schuh
521  W.  Doty st. #16
Madison, Wi.   53703
608- 251-0014
!uwvax!geowhiz!schuh

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Children believing what they see on TV
Date: 8 Jan 86 23:12:35 GMT

>    "Children who are affected by violence on television have
> parents who act like television characters" -- David Byrne

I think this is awfully simplistic -- perhaps it is a reaction to
the number of postings on the subject.  For my own two cents, I was
listening to an interview of one of the child-actors of *Danger Bay*
(on the Disney Channel), and he said something to the extent of:

       When I watch violent shows, I feel paranoid, like life is
       dangerous and requires violent solutions.

From the mouths of babes....

We cannot guess how and how much violent shows REALLY affect us and
our children.  Admittedly, I've been watching James Bond flicks for
what seems forever, and consider myself to be a well-adjusted adult.
I do have rather skeptical feelings toward 'Peace On Earth',
however.  Is this because I understand the human condition?  Or is
my subconscious speaking what it HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO SAY?

It is troubling -- to me at least.

Barb

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: sexual slant in SF books
Date: 9 Jan 86 15:49:25 GMT

MRC@PANDA writes:
>     Come now.  Many people who read SF like to envision themselves
>in the story.  It's difficult to do so if all the characters engage
>in sexual practices the reader finds repulsive....
>     I for one would not knowingly buy an SF book that had
>graphic sexual contents that was exclusively gay.

As you'll recall, the book that started this discussion off was
"Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand." I fail to see where the
sex in SIMPLGOS is graphic enough to offend anyone but a Boston
bluenose. And if you limit yourself to books and stories that
contain an unflawed two-dimensional character you can identify with,
you're going to eliminate 90% of the world's literature from your
experience. Although there are many Walter Mittys out there who read
SF for escapism, there are also many of us who read it for other
reasons.

As to 'repulsive practices,' SF is full of 'em. There's a story
(mentioned briefly, I think, in this group last year) about aliens
who have pseudoheads at the nether end of their digestive tracts and
whose culture centers around excrement. Is this repulsive enough to
keep you from reading the book on a friend's recommendation? And
should the jacket of such a group contain the warning

    Caution: this book contains scenes of alien
    defecation that some people might find offensive

                            Bill Ingogly  ;-)

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Waves in science fiction.
Date: 9 Jan 86 22:12:12 GMT

abh6509@ritcv.UUCP (Andrew) writes:
[Me]
>>... Thus the famous painting (was it
>>by Man Ray?) of the pipe (smoking) labelled "ce n'est pas une pipe"

Someone pointed out to me that this painting was by Magritte.

>Consider works like A. E. Van Vogt's Universe Maker, Pendulum, The
>Reflected Men - these have a dreamy-strangeness. He used to wake up
>in the middle of the night to add plot details.
>
>Consider Philip Dick's Martian Time Slip. Although one could argue
>that he was intending a description of neurosis or schizophrenia, I
>thought it had definite surrealistic overtones.

Sure. I'm not denying SF authors have used surrealistic techniques
or that their works may have surrealistic overtones. My comments
were directed at Mark Aden Poling's comment that surrealism somehow
is related to the New Wave's attempt to inject humanism into SF back
in the '60s:

>>>...  The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to
>>>bring human values and attitudes into what had previously been
>>>very Machine oriented fiction.  This of course meant that
>>>surrealism was prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published
>>>then.

I still fail to see what human values and attitudes have to do with
surrealistic techniques.

>I think you are correct in stating that there hasn't been any
>intentional movement of surrealistic writing. But then what
>movements are intentional?

Lots of them. The original Surrealists and Dadaists consciously
created their movements, for example. There's even a 'Surrealist
Manifesto,' I believe.
                          Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 86 1426-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Dick &
                         Laumer (2 msgs),
                 Films - Max 404,
                 Miscellaneous - Descriptions (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cca!penny@caip.rutgers.edu (Penny Rheingans)
Subject: Re: Title Request - The Darkover Novels
Date: 10 Jan 86 17:36:54 GMT

> From: XBR1YD22%DDATHD21.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (YD22@BR1.THDNET)
>      Could anybody supply a list of all the Darkover Novels by
> Marion Zimmer Bradley? I'd like to read more of them. Thank you
> very much.

I really did try to respond by mail. Failing that I'm going to
commit the just-barely-pardonable offense of responding to the net.

I haven't the novels with me so this response is off the top of my
head. Accordingly it's entirely possible I've forgotten a few. This
list is roughly chronological by Darkover history (though my
memory's foggy in a few places. Here goes:

Darkover Landfall
Storm Queen
Hawkmistress
Two to Conquer
Shattered Chains (both before and after The Spell Sword)
The Spell Sword
Forbidden Tower
Thendara House
City of Sorcery
Star of Danger
Winds of Darkover
Bloody Sun
Heritage of Hastur
Sharra's Exile (extensive rewrite of The Sword of Aldones)
The Planet Savers
The World Wreckers

There are also a couple of collections of short stories about
Darkover written by others and editted by MZB (she includes a couple
of her own stories with each book). These are:

The Keeper's Price
Sword of Choas
Free Amazons of Darkover

Enjoy!

Penny Rheingans

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Title Request - The Darkover Novels
Date: 10 Jan 86 21:10:49 GMT

Okay, friends, here it is: The works of Marion Zimmer Bradley.  I am
going to post this because I'm not sure how to usemail to West
Germany (Sorry, Ralf) and because it's been a few months since I
first posted it.  Enjoy.

Ellen Eades (tektronix!reed!ellen)

In order of publication:          Darkovan chronology:

Planet Savers, 1962             Darkover Landfall
Sword of Aldones, 1962          Stormqueen!
Bloody Sun, 1964                Two to Conquer
Star of Danger, 1966            Hawkmistress!
Winds of Darkover, 1970         Shattered Chain (part 1)
World Wreckers, 1971            Spell Sword
Darkover Landfall, 1972         Forbidden Tower
Spell Sword, 1972               Shattered Chain (part 2)
Heritage of Hastur, 1975        Thendara House
Shattered Chain, 1976           City of Sorcery
Forbidden Tower, 1977           Star of Danger
Stormqueen!, 1978               Winds of Darkover
Bloody Sun (rewrite), 1979      Bloody Sun
Two to Conquer, 1980            Heritage of Hastur
Keeper's Price*, 1980           Planet Savers
Sharra's Exile, 1981            Sharra's Exile/Sword of Aldones%
Sword of Chaos*, 1982           World Wreckers
Hawkmistress!, 1982             Return to Darkover
Thendara House, 1983
City of Sorcery, 1984
Return to Darkover, (scheduled release 1986)

*Keeper's Price & Sword of Chaos are short story anthologies by
Bradley and others, chosen by MZB to be nearest to her personal view
of Darkover & thus "authentic."

%Sharra's Exile is a rewrite of Sword of Aldones and thus occupies
the same chronological niche.

Mini-series or direct sequels to one another:

Spell Sword/Forbidden Tower/Bloody Sun (rewrite)
Shattered Chain/Thendara House/City of Sorcery
Heritage of Hastur/Sharra's Exile/Return to Darkover

Non-Darkover science fiction:           Fantasy:

Seven from the Stars, 1957      Dark Satanic, 1972
The Door Through Space, 1961    In the Steps of the Master, 1973
Falcons of Narabedla, 1964      Drums of Darkness, 1976
The Brass Dragon, 1970          House Between the Worlds, 1980
Colors of Space, 1974           Web of Light, 1982
Endless Voyage, 1975            Web of Darkness, 1983
Endless Universe*, 1979         The Inheritor, 1984
Hunters of the Red Moon, 1975   Night's Daughter, 1985
The Survivors**, 1979
The Ruins of Isis, 1979
Survey Ship, 1980

*Endless Universe same as Endless Voyage plus two more novelettes
about the Explorers

**Survivors is sequel to Hunters of the Red Moon.

Mainstream:

The Catch Trap, 1979
The Mists of Avalon, 1983

Anthologies:

Dark Intruder & Other Stories, 1964
Greyhaven, 1983
Sword & Sorceress, 1984
Sword & Sorceress v. 2, 1985

Gothics:

Castle Terror, 1965
Souvenir of Monique, 1967
Bluebeard's Daughter, 1968
Can Ellen Be Saved?, pub. date unknown

There is also a series of new fan activity centering around the
Darkover universe.  These are the addresses that I have: (PLEASE
ENCLOSE A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE)

For "Relays," a Darkover newsletter:

Paella n'ha Mhari
P.O. box 2048
Sacramento, CA 95810

Free Amazon newsletter:

Tess Kolney
2114 James Avenue
Minneapolis, MN 55411

Council Lists (Darkover fans in your area)

Ambria Ridenow
P.O. Box 915
Felton, CA 95018

Contes de Cottman IV (fiction fanzine)

Lynn Holdom
P.O. Box 5
Pompton Lakes, NJ o7442

Darkovan Dictionary/Language

John Shimwell
407 Clayton St.
San Francisco, CA 94117

There are two annual USA Darkover conventions:
Grand Council Meeting (East Coast)
Fantasy Worlds Festival (West Coast)

        tektronix!reed!ellen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 86 02:41:57 pst
From: stever@cit-vlsi.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: message automata conspiracy

Hank Buurman (ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb) writes
> "Blade Runner" (was) better than P.K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream
>  of Electric Sheep."

I beg to disagree.

The first half of the movie was a "period" detective story, with
soppy music and lots of fog to cover cheap models and cheezy
graphics.  Many characters were removed or inserted, and the
subplots surrounding the bladerunner's home, wife and ewe were
entirely omitted.

Dick does so many wonderful things in his books that no movie could
adequately express them all.  This movie solved the dilemma by not
expressing any of them.

Flash back to your childhood - the small town you grew up in, and
realize that it does not exist, never existed, except perhaps in
your head.  Call your high school sweetheart, and ask her if she
remembers - you may be surprised.

Perhaps you are in fact, one of those USENET message automata -
monitoring the network, emitting stochastic fragments from time to
time when real traffic is low.  Homeostatic entities of uncertain
origin, but growing ever more numerous (in places like net.unix
where they flourish).  Was there ever a real Hank Buurman? And if so
what have you done with him?

> Do you, as a reader, like straight or gay sex in your SF?

Yes I do.  I like strong writing which shakes the foundations of my
preconceptions, and emotions of love/need/desire/loneliness do that
to me.

Theodore Sturgeon does this exceedingly well.
Check out "The Synthetic Man" or "More Than Human".

Steve

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Rogue Bolo?
Date: 9 Jan 86 17:21:45 GMT

There's a freshly printed book on the stands by Keith Laumer.  I
think it's called "Rogue Bolo".  Unfortunately it's published by
either Jim Baen or TOR books (I have them in the same slimy mental
category), each of whom has nailed me with reprints under new names.
For example, TOR now has an Imperium book out which, looking
carefully, is a reprint of two previous Imperium books.

Rather than let them do it to me again, let me ask someone who's
already been nailed: is this a new book?  If so, is it up to his
previous Bolo efforts (i.e. an order of magnitude better than Star
Colony)?

        Thanks...
        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Rogue Bolo?
Date: 10 Jan 86 19:23:35 GMT

This novel is either a sequel to or a complete rewrite of the short
BOLO story "Fieldtest" to be found in the original BOLO collection.
Some of the characters are the same, the beginning is pretty much
the same, but the main story is very different.

Also included at the end is a never before published BOLO story.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: Sun 12 Jan 86 17:08:44-PST
From: Mark Feber <FEBER@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: max 404

Max 404 was played by Don Opper, one of the film's (Android)
co-scriptors.  At the showing at Filmex 83 (Los Angeles Film
Exposition) he was there and stood up to give a rather stiff bow at
the end of the film.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 86 17:37:16 PST
From: woody%Romeo@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu
Subject: Re: Descriptions in Books

  Bravo, Davis Tucker.
  After reading his thought provoking essay on description, I slowly
climbed out of my chair, crossed the cluttered hovel that is my
home, and pulled some of the dust covered books from the makeshift
shelf where they rest.  Of the tattered, dogeared books which I love
and re-read the most, not a one lack the element of description so
important to conveying an interesting (or not so interesting) idea
into a very interesting story.
  Many years ago, I took a class on filmmaking.  The important
element of creating a film from a book is reducing the essence of
the book to fit in the rather short length of time the movie must
take place in.  This is done by taking rather lengthy descriptions
and reducing them to the appropriate props in the appropriate
backdrops, with appropriately dressed people doing the appropriate
action.  And this works very well in motion picture.  But not in
books!  When a woman is described in a screen play as "beautiful",
you ask Casting for a lot of beautiful women and the author looks
over all of them, until he finds the one who is "perfect".  But when
you say "beautiful" in a book without any other description, the
author has one picture in mind, the reader cannot help but form
another picture, and communication is lost. The author loses control
over his story. Instead of telling us stories about giants and
armies marching across blood-stained fields or of gleaming
spaceships racing across a starry sky, the storyteller is doing
nothing except putting words on paper for money.
  Ideas are easy.  Just sitting here I can daydream hours on end
about worlds and universes.  How about a world where the Cold War
has lasted long enough that divergent evolution causes the creation
of two species of man?  Or a world where man was created as an
accidental mutation in the genetics laboratory of Neanderthals?  Or
even the old standby, life after nuclear war?  See?  Ideas are very
easy.  Plots are almost as easy, too.  But true story writing,
putting words on paper which describes to aching detail the action
of the men in this world trying to achieve their goals; turning a
"beautiful woman" into a five foot two, red haired beauty with soft
green eyes, full lips, and a passion for abstract geometry; these
acts take the talent of a professional.

William Woody
NETWORK: WOODY@ROMEO
US MAIL: 1-54 Lloyd, Caltech
         Pasadena, CA 91126

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Replay to Davis Tucker re: adjectives
Date: 10 Jan 86 15:45:12 GMT

Davis,

I think you are wildly and radically off the mark here.

A character is exactly what they do and what they think, and unless
their appearance affects that in some important way, it doesn't
belong in a novel.  Furthermore, I think the examples you have
chosen support my point: Tolstoy described Anya's eyes to us simply
because it was important for us to be (in some sense) in love with
her physical appearance ourselves -- otherwise we won't understand
what happens later.  Similarly with Billy Budd: we have to get at
his innocence somehow -- since Melville was not working in any
omnipotent or semi-omnipotent viewpoint, he chose to make this clear
to us by Billy's physical appearance.

I agree with you that being able to clearly understand an important
character -- and I don't think you put it strongly enough when you
say "if for nothing else than to define them as real, living,
flawed, human beings."  An important character *must be* a real
flawed human being for us to accept him and to develop the
relationship we must for the fiction to become a vivid dream (you
knew I was going to say it at least once, right?)

But using adjectives at least as often gets in the way!  I have a
perfectly good image of Ender Wiggin, thanks, and I don't need for
Card to tell me extra stuff.  Far more important that he tells me
about Ender's *feelings* and *failings* and why he isn't a normal
kid and what that makes him instead.

Hemingway -- no slouch of a writer there -- consciously avoided the
use of adjectives.  And did it completely intentionally: (although I
can't find the reference right now, so this won't be a direct quote)
he wrote about this that he felt it was none of his business how we
saw his characters, and that he didn't want to make judgements for
us.  He wanted us simply to understand them and make our own
judgements.  For this reason, he avoided the use of adjectives
whenever possible.

I think he went too far: or at least, he takes it too far from what
I think I can manange myself.  But using lots of adjectives in the
attempt to give the "atmosphere" is often a mark of a nice 80,000
word novel hidden in a 150,000 (or 300,000!) word tome.

Again with reference to Ender's Game, most of the novel was from
Ender's point of view, and the central point of the novel was how
his point of view changed and what doing what he did *felt like.* I
doubt that he ever noticed how his own eyes furrowed in
concentration as he tried to whup the other team in the games: so it
is inappropriate for it to be mentioned in the book.

Your last point is that if one never describes at all, one has less
work to do.  Having just spent about a week trimming unneeded
description from a short story, trying to make more clear and
complete my image in real terms, I can tell you: it just ain't so.
It's bloody well harder to do what you need to do in 100 words than
1000.

Adjectives are all to often waste space, trying to force us to see
what the author has not been able to imagine clearly enough
him(her)self: because if the imagination is clear enough, the real
details will carry without them.

This is your last para:
"Our adjectives are leaving us, slowly and surely, and they sail
away on a rusty freighter flying a plague flag, out of the dying
port of a nation conquered one hundred years ago in a horrible war
of attrition and starvation, sailing into a polluted sunset over an
oily sea."

This is a nice example of what can be done with adjectives: (forgive
me) overwritten, daubed over with sentiment, painted in garish
colors like Socialist Realism paintings above Lenin's tomb.  But (if
these shipboard adjectives were characters), it would tell us
nothing about them: it doesn't make us see the sunset better (a
polluted sunset often has the most wonderful colors), it doesn't
tell us how *they* feel about the war (why are they leaving?  are
they the conquerors or the conquered?), and it tugs at our gut level
emotional response like a collie puppy in a pet-store display.  Far
better to make a story from what a character thinks, feels, and
believes than to have to get one's effects through tricks that put
one in mind of the oncoming trains in a 3D movie.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 86 1500-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:

                     Books - December Booklist

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hplabs!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt)
Subject: December Booklist from the OCOH
Date: 14 Jan 86 01:56:31 GMT

This is the monthly list of books received at the OCOH, with
comments, as posted on Scifido, a sf oriented BBS, available at
(415)655-8604.

Support your local specialty bookshops, and if you don't have one,
support ours.

The Other Change of Hobbit
2433 Channing Way
Berkeley, CA  94704

Happy New Year to all!  December 1985 was a strange month, because
Ace Books published two months worth of titles (to make up for a
month they skipped a couple of years back, and to rearrange the
shipping schedules between Ace and Berkley Books).  So even though
there are always fewer hardcovers than usual in December, there are
enough new paperbacks to make up for this lack.

Hardcovers and Trade Paperbacks

Asimov, Isaac           THE ALTERNATE ASIMOVS
                          Collects the unpublished first versions of
                          PEBBLE IN THE SKY, THE END OF ETERNITY and
                          "Belief".  "Every once in a while I do a
                          book that is not my own idea." - the
                          author's introduction.  ("The qualitative
                          difference between these crude first
                          drafts and their rewritten versions makes
                          one wonder how much better more recent
                          novels might have been..." - Dave)
Asprin, Robert          LITTLE MYTH MARKER
                          The sixth MythAdventure; cover and
                          illos by Phil Foglio.
Browne, Dik             HAGAR THE HORRIBLE'S VERY NEARLY COMPLETE
                        VIKING HANDBOOK
                          "This manual is filled with hands-on
                          advice for anyone who would enter the
                          Viking business." - the blurb.  With
                          helpful illustrations.
Dick, Philip K.         RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH
                          ("This (truly) undiscovered science
                          fiction novel is a precursor to VALIS,
                          incorporating many of the same concepts in
                          a different (and much more accessible)
                          style.  Of interest to any PKD fan, but
                          not a good place to start if you're
                          unfamiliar with Dick." - Debbie)
Fraser, George          FLASHMAN AT THE CHARGE
    MacDonald             Reprint 1973 hardcover; first trade
                          paperback
Kelly, James Patrick    FREEDOM BEACH
    and John Kessel
Lovecraft, H. P.        AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS
                          Reprint 1964 hardcover.  Corrected
                          fifth printing.
                        THE DUNWICH HORROR
                          Reprint 1963 hardcover.  Corrected seventh
                          printing.  These are the first two of the
                          new critical editions following
                          Lovecraft's manuscripts where available
                          and correcting corrupt magazine texts.
                          Critical editing by S. T. Joshi.  A major
                          publishing achievement, long overdue.
Martin, George R.       NIGHTFLYERS
                          Collection including three stories
                          from A SONG FOR LYA and one from
                          SONGS OF STARS AND SHADOWS.
Morris, Janet           BEYOND THE VEIL
                          A second Thieves' World (TM) novel.
Murphy, Shirley         VALENTINE FOR A DRAGON
    Rousseau              Illustrated by Kay Chorao.
O'Dnell, Peter        DEAD MAN'S HANDLE
                          The twelfth Modesty Blaise book
                          (the 11th novel).
Pierce, Meredith Ann    BIRTH OF THE FIREBRINGER
                          First book in a new trilogy.
Roberts, Keith          KITEWORLD
                          British hardcover (first edition).
Vance, Jack             LYONESSE:  THE GREEN PEARL
                          Limited edition of 600 numbered and
                          signed copies in a suede slipcase;
                          trade paperback due in April.
Wilson, Robert Anton    THE WIDOW'S SON
                           Volume II of the Historical
                           Illuminatus Chronicles; the first was
                           THE EARTH WILL SHAKE.
Zahn, Timothy           SPINNERET
Zebrowski, George       NEBULA AWARDS 20
    (ed.)                  Introduction by Zebrowski, essay by
                           Algis Budrys, poems by Joe Haldeman
                           and Helen Ehrlich, as well as the
                           three short fiction winners and
                           eight nominees for the 1984 award.
                           ("Too much overlap with the various
                           "best" anthologies, but fine reading
                           if you missed the others." - Debbie)

Mass Market Paperbacks

Adams, Robert, M. H.    BARBARIANS
    Greenberg and C. G.    Contains one original story, plus
    Waugh (eds.)           reprints by Leiber, Niven, Norton
                           and others.
Anderson, Poul (crea-   TERRORISTS OF TOMORROW
    tor), M. H. Green-     Reprint anthology.
    berg & C. G.
    Waugh (eds.)
Anthony, Piers          HASAN
                           Reprint 1977 trade paperback, second
                           mass edition.
Asimov, Isaac &         ISAAC ASIMOV PRESENTS THE GREAT SF STORIES 14
    M. H. Greenberg        Stories from 1952, including (as all
    and C. G. Waugh,       the others in this series do) a lot
    (eds.)                 of excellent reading.  This one lacks
                           magazine attributions.
Asprin, Robert &        SOUL OF THE CITY
    Lynn Abbey (eds.)      Thieves' World (TM) Book 8.
                           Contains two stories each by Abbey,
                           Cherryh and Morris.
                           (A customer was so upset by the
                           sexist stereotypes in the Janet Morris
                           stories that he wrote and asked us to
                           warn you about them - Debbie)
Brackett, Leigh         THE LONG TOMORROW
                           Reprint 1955 hardcover.
                           ("Classic underrated post-holocaust
                           novel." - Dave)
Bradley, Marion Zimmer  THE BEST OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY
                           ("Unfortunately, with a lot of short
                           stories in one place, some of Bradley's
                           recurring themes get a bit repetitive -
                           nonetheless, some entertaining reading
                           here." - Debbie)
Brust, Steven           BROKEDOWN PALACE
                           ("Grateful Dead fans may catch some
                           extra references, but you don't have
                           to know the music to enjoy this
                           stylistically quirky and beautifully
                           constructed fantasy" - Debbie)
Callin, Grant           SATURNALIA
Card, Orson Scott       ENDER'S GAME
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover - very likely
                           to be a Nebula nominee this year.
                           ("Deceptively starts off like just
                           another STARSHIP TROOPERS clone,
                           but develops characters and philosophy
                           much more interestingly.  Structural
                           problem with the end may be solved by
                           the forthcoming sequel." - Dave)
Chalker, Jack           THE IDENTITY MATRIX
                           Reprint 1982 paperback.
Cherryh, C. J.          THE KIF STRIKE BACK
                           The third Chanur book.  This one ends
                           "To Be Continued", but not with a
                           cliffhanger.
Cole, Allan and Chris   THE COURT OF A THOUSAND SUNS
    Bunch                  The third "Sten" novel.
Coppel, Alfred          THE REBEL OF RHADA
    (writing as            Reprint 1968 hardcover; second
    Robert Cham Gilman)    paperback edition.  This is the
                           first book of the original trilogy.
Dann, Jack              THE MAN WHO MELTED
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover, incorporating
                           the story "Blind Shemmy".  ("The first
                           half is a near-perfect fusion of sf and
                           mysticism, but it breaks down into soap
                           opera in the second half." - Debbie)
Dann, Jack and Gardner  MERMAIDS!
    Dozois (eds.)          Reprint anthology.
Delany, Samuel R.       NOVA
                           Reprint 1968 hardcover; 13th printing;
                           new cover by Graphic Associates (we
                           wouldn't put our names on it either).
                           One of Dave's ten favorite sf novels -
                           also highly recommended by Tom and
                           Debbie.
                        TRITON:  An Ambiguous Heterotopia
                           Reprint 1976 paperback; new cover by
                           Graphic Associates (see above).  ("One of
                           Delany's most challenging and rewarding
                           novels, notable above all for The Spike,
                           one of sf's most memorable characters.
                           Recommended." - Debbie)
Dickson, Gordon R.      SPACE WINNERS
                           Reprint 1965 hardcover; the "first time
                           in paperback" blurb is true!  ("Earth's
                           best and brightest high school seniors go
                           to Federation prep school.  Great fun;
                           the Alien has the best characterization."
                           - Jan)
Dillard, J. M.          MINDSHADOW
                           Star Trek (R) Novel #27.
Emerson, Ru             THE PRINCESS OF FLAMES
                           ("An unusual treatment of some usual
                           themes, very enjoyable and, I thought,
                           visually interesting." - Jennifer)
Feist, Raymond E.       MAGICIAN:  APPRENTICE
                           Reprints the first half of the 1982
                           hardcover (and trade paperback) MAGICIAN.
                           Second half due in March.
Green, Jen & Sarah      DESPATCHES FROM THE FRONTIERS OF THE FEMALE
          Lefanu (eds.) MIND
                           ("A superb anthology spanning a wide
                           range from Joanna Russ at her most
                           hilarious to Pamela Zoline at her most
                           demanding.  Lots of good stories from
                           newcomers, too." - Debbie)
Hambly, Barbara         DRAGONSBANE
                           ("Fascinating original treatment of
                           the relationship between magic and
                           dragons." - Dave)
Hoban, Russell          PILGERMANN
                           Reprint 1983 hardcover.
Johnson, Crockett       BARNABY #3:  JACKEEN J. O'MALLEY FOR CONGRESS
                           Reprints strips from 8/27/43 to 5/6/44.
                           "The greatest book since WAR AND PEACE."
                           - J. J. O'Malley.  Highly recommended
                           even by those of us without little pink
                           wings.
Jones, Diana Wynne      THE HOMEWARD BOUNDERS
                           Reprint 1981 hardcover.  ("Good young
                           adult fantasy, with a better ending than
                           most of hers." - Tom)
Kress, Nancy            THE GOLDEN GROVE
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover.
Laumer, Keith           ROGUE BOLO
                           Contains an essay from BOLO, but
                           otherwise appears to be new short
                           stories.
                        WORLDS OF THE IMPERIUM
                           Reissue 1982 paperback - includes two
                           short stories, plus the title novel.
Leiber, Fritz           THE SINFUL ONES
                           Reprint 1950 trade paperback.  This is
                           the book that was revised as YOU'RE ALL
                           ALONE (now long out-of-print).  Until the
                           Gregg Press and Timescape editions in
                           1980, it was extremely hard to find.  ("A
                           classic novel of shifting realities.
                           Recommended." - Debbie)
Leiber, Justin          THE SWORD AND THE TOWER
                           Book Two of the Saga of the House of
                           Eigin.
Lichtenberg, Jacqueline OUTREACH
                           Dushau Trilogy #3.
Lindholm, Megan         WIZARD OF THE PIGEONS
                           ("A different and rather darkly
                           fascinating book." - Jennifer)
Mace, David             DEMON 4
                           First American edition of 1984 British
                           book.
O'Riordan, Robert       CADRE ONE
Pournelle, Jerry &      FAR FRONTIERS, Volume IV
   Jim Baen (eds.)         A paperback "magazine" with erratic
                           numbering and titling policies.
Price, E. Hoffman       OPERATION EXILE
                           Sequel to OPERATION LONGLIFE and
                           OPERATION MISFIT.
Richardson, R. S.       SHUTTLE DOWN
    (writing as "Lee       Reprint 1981 paperback. Richardson's
     Correy")              other, and perhaps better known,
                           pseudonym is G. Harry Stine, which he
                           uses for scientific articles.
Robinson, Spider        NIGHT OF POWER
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover.  ("Robinson's
                           very personal confrontation with racial
                           violence - so strongly didactic that you
                           can probably only enjoy it if you see the
                           problem much as he does." - Debbie)
Rosenberg, Joel         EMILE AND THE DUTCHMAN
                           Incorporates "Like the Gentle Rains"
                           and "In the Shadow of Heaven"  from
                           Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine.
Rothman, Chuck          STAROAMER'S FATE
Russell, Eric Frank     SINISTER BARRIER
                           Reprint 1948 hardcover (postwar revised
                           and preferred text).  First in a series
                           of six Russell reissues.  Highly
                           recommended.  ("Classic paranoid novel on
                           Fortean themes - a bit dated now, but
                           still exciting." - Tom)
St. Clair, Margaret     THE BEST OF MARGARET ST. CLAIR
                           The only St. Clair in print, unfortunately.
Schmidt, Dennis         WAYFARER
                           Reprint 1978 paperback; first of the
                           Kensho series.
Silverberg, Robert      NEXT STOP THE STARS
                           Reprint 1962 paperback.
Stith, John E.          MEMORY BLANK
Straub, Peter           IF YOU COULD SEE ME NOW
                           Reprint 1977 hardcover; seventh
                           paperback printing.
Suyin, Han              THE ENCHANTRESS
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover - her first
                           fantasy novel (after her Pulitzer prize).
Swycaffer, Jefferson P. THE PRAESIDIUM OF ARCHIVE
Tepper, Sheri S.        BLOOD HERITAGE
                           Her first horror novel.
                           ("Derivative; a lot less interesting
                           than her fantasy work." - Tom)
Utley, Alison           A TRAVELLER IN TIME
                           Reprint of 1939 hardcover - apparently
                           the first paperback edition.
Vardeman, Robert E.     THE WHITE FIRE
                           Jade Demons #4.
Watson, Ian             THE BOOK OF THE RIVER
                           Reprint 1983 British hardcover; first
                           American paperback edition.
Whiteford, Wynne        BREATHING SPACE ONLY
                           First American edition; reprint 1980
                           Australian edition.
Willard, Nancy          THINGS INVISIBLE TO SEE
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover.  ("A strange
                           combination of spiritualism, baseball and
                           1930s atmosphere; the mainstream aspects
                           work better than the fantastic ones." -
                           Debbie)
Wyndham, John           THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS
                           Reprint 1951 hardcover - the classic
                           novel that preceded the film.

....!hplabs!faunt               faunt@hplabs.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 86 0844-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Brust & Laumer & Sagan &
                          Spinrad & The Flying Sorcerors,
                  Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                          Overdrawn at the Memory Bank,
                  Miscellaneous - Descriptions (2 msgs) &
                          Sex in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 11 Jan 86 21:00:55 GMT

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA writes:
> I disagree with your negative review of Brokedown Palace. I
> enjoyed it thoroughly. Rather than an attempt to emulate a Zelazny
> novel, it rather

Me too

> attempts to emulate the classic style of european fairy tales and
> allegories.  The reason this style is classic is because it works
> well to convey morals and messages without being heavy handed.  I
> thought he pulled it off rather well.

I remember Brust saying ( when he was on the net ) that this was
based on Hungarian(?) tales.

Someone said a while ago that he/she thought that BP was in the
pre-history of Yendi and Jhereg but I think if anything, it's post
these two since Devera appears now as a real person but the last
time we saw her she "hadn't been born yet". Someone else thought
that Jhereg and Yendi were set in Fairie since BP was in a land
"east of Fairie" and concluded that this was the land that humans
lived in Jhereg and Yendi. However there is no evidence of
Witchcraft in BP....so unless Fairie is also part of the human lands
( where there is Witchcraft or is it sorcery? I'm not sure what the
difference is ) then there seems to be an inconsistancy....something
I don't expect from Brust. I don't really know what any of this
means.....

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

From: well!lflgames@caip.rutgers.edu (Lucasfilm Games Division)
Subject: Re: Rogue Bolo?
Date: 14 Jan 86 01:02:33 GMT

The book is brand new as far as I can tell, but not very good.  It's
not told in a narrative style, but rather in a series of excerpts
from papers, letters, and conversations.  It also seems to violate
some of his previous bolo books as it takes place on an Earth
without interstellar spaceflight, concerning a bolo with a larger
model number than some of his post spaceflight bolos.  There's also
a short story included in the book that seems to be a rewrite and
expansion of an earlier story about a decommissioned bolo on an
alien planet that saves the town when the nasty aliens return again.
The whole package is bad for Laumer - I hear he's been slowly
recuperating for years from a stroke or something, his writing has
not been up to par.

I'm not 100% certain on all this, as I don't have the copy of my
book here, but I'm sure I'll be corrected in any case :-).

Noah Falstein
ihpn4!ptsfa!well!lflgames   (mention Noah in subject)

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: CONTACT by Carl Sagan (mild spoiler)
Date: 8 Jan 86 19:23:13 GMT

The inside jacket reads:

  "For centuries humanity has dreamed of life and intelligence
  beyond the Earth; for decades scientists have searched for it in
  every corner of the sky; for years Project Argus, a vast,
  sophisticated complex of radio telescopes, has listened for a
  signal indicating the existence, somewhere in the universe, of
  exterrestrial intelligence.

  Then, one afternoon, the course of human history is changed,
  abruptly and forever. The Message, awaited for so long, its very
  possibility doubted by so many, arrives.

  Contact has been made. Life, intelligence, someone, something
  beyond Earth, 26 light-years away, in the vicinity of the star
  Vega, is calling, beaming across space a wholly unexpected message
  to say that we are not--have never been--alone.

  [Skipping hype about Carl Sagan.]

  At its center is a brilliant scientist, Eleanor Arroway, director
  of Project Argus, who is the first to realize that chapter one of
  human history is over. It is she who is instrumental in decoding
  the Message-- and in persuading world leaders not to treat it as a
  threat--she who finds her own life changed by the immense
  challenge of responding to the Message; she who finally journeys
  out to experience, in circumstances at once profoundly religious
  and scientific, the most fateful encounter in human history.

  [Skipping hype about the book.]

The jacket is fairly accurate, so I won't say much more about the
plot per se. As everyone knows, Dr. Sagan is very good at explaining
things, but he has a tendency to not know when to stop. In CONTACT,
this problem is made worse in that a lot of the opinions and
explanations are concentrated in the first half of the book; I got
really tired of hearing the character's views on religion, for
instance.

Looking at this book from an SF fan's angle, I feel let down.  The
scientific ideas here are pretty interesting, but the writing
aroused only mild enthusiasm on my part. The characters seemed
rather pale, and the few personal relationships were muddled.
There's quite a bit of dialogue, not enough action, and a
disappointing adventure.

I give this book 2.5 stars; it's good, but I'd call it average for
SF.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jan 86 22:53:48 est
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Spinrad & Child of Fortune

I haven't read "Child of Fortune" (COF), but I have read "The Void
Captain's Tale" (VCT) and several other Spinrad books.  I have liked
them all, but have so far avoided "The Mind Game" because its
subject looks like one that would both raise my ire and depress me.
The author's mindset seems to derive a great deal from the
pre-commercialization "flower" movement.  What he is doing is
projecting forward this mindset (lifesytle/philosophy/whatever) into
futures where technology has removed greed and hunger as causes of
conflict.  So what happens?  Rather than simply dismissing it (like
Niven did in "Safe at Any Speed"), in VCT he illustrates the
downfall/triumph of a member of that culture confronted with a
challenge/frontier.  It sounds like COF illustrates coming-of-age in
such a society.

As far as where Spinrad is coming from, mentally, emotionally and
politically, to a certain extent 'you hadda be there'.  The part of
the '60s he likes had much more going on than simply war protests.
I got my appreciation 2nd and 3rd hand while at school in the mid
'70s but you could try sitting down some day and reading "The
Electric Kool Aid Acid Test" (Wolfe), "Journey to Ixtlan"
(Castaneda), "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (Thompson) and
"Another Roadside Attraction" (Robbins) while listening to Jefferson
Airplane and the Woodstock album.

James B. VanBokkelen
jbvb@borax.lcs.mit.edu (arpanet only)

------------------------------

From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Gods in The Flying Sorcerors
Date: 13 Jan 86 03:15:23 GMT

I was home over Christmas, and picked up my copy of _The Flying
Sorcerors_.  While I was rereading it, I decided to make a list of
the gods and try and match them up with the originals.  This might
have been hashed out a while back; if so, I apologize.  If you can
fill in some of the blanks, or disagree with my answers, send me
mail.

By the way, the book was copyright 1971 (so don't suggest that Peers
is Piers Anthony).

Musk-Watz       wind god
N'veen          god of tides, patron of mapmakers
Leeb            god of magic
Ouells          blue sun
Virn            red sun
Rotn'bair       sheep god, symbol is a horned box
Nils'n          god of mud creatures, symbol is two empty circles
                  separated by a diagonal line
Filfo-mar       river god
Elcin           god of lightning and fear, the Great and Tiny God of
                  Lightning and Loud Noises
Fine-line       god of engineers and architects
Klarther        god of skies and seas
Brad            god of the past
Kronk           god of the future
Po              god of decay
Fol             god of distortion
Pull'nissin     god of duels
Blok            god of violence
Tis'turzhin     god of love
Sp'nee          ruler of slime
Tukker          god of names
Caff            god of dragons
Yake            god of what-if
Furman          god of Fasf (whatever that is)
Poup            god of fertility
Peers           mad demon, constantly snarling and gnashing

womens names:

Kate, Judy, Anne, Ursula, Karen, Andre, Marion, Leigh, Miriam,
Sonya, Zenna, Joanna, Quinn

magishuns:
Shoogar, Dorthy, As a color, a Shade of Purple-Gray

Musk-Watz       ??
N'veen          Larry Niven, god of tides from _There is a Tide_,
                  don't know about patron of mapmakers
Leeb            Fritz Lieber, magic is obvious
Ouells          H. G. Wells; several times referred to as blue
                  Ouells--blue whales? (that would fit Orson Welles
                  a bit better :-)
Virn            Jules Verne
Rotn'bair       Gene Roddenberry?  I don't understand the sheep god
                  bit, but the horned box might refer to a TV w/
                  rabbit ear antennae.
Nils'n          Nielsen, as in Nielsen ratings.  The symbol (a
                  percent sign) makes this fairly clear.  Amusing
                  that Nils'n and Rotn'bair are enemies
Filfo-mar       Philip Jose Farmer, _Riverworld_
Elcin           clearly Harlan Ellison
Fine-line       Robert A. Heinlein
Klarther        Arthur C. Clarke
Brad            Ray Bradbury, "The Sound of Thunder"
Kronk           ??  Walter Cronkheit, maybe?
Po              Edgar Allen Poe
Fol             ??  Someone suggested Phil Foglio
Pull'nissin     Poul Anderson?  Don't understand why he should be
                  the god of duels
Blok            Robert Bloch, _Psycho_
Tis'turzhin     Ted Sturgeon
Sp'nee          ??
Tukker          ??
Caff            Anne McCaffery, _Dragonriders of Pern_
Yake            ??
Furman          if Fasf is the Magazine of Fantasy and Science
                  Fiction, then perhaps he was an editor?
Poup            ??
Peers           peers, maybe?

Kate Wilhem, Judy Lynn Del-Rey?, Anne McCaffery, Ursula K. Le Guin,
Karen Anderson?, Andre Norton, Marian Zimmer Bradley, Leigh
Brackett, Miriam ?, Sonya ?, Zenna Henderson, Joanna Russ, Quinn ?

Shoogar         sugar and spice, and everything nice?

Dorthi          Dorthi was displaced as village magician when a
                  strange magician fell out of the sky and flattened
                  his house.  Purple was given Dorthi's scarlet
                  sandals and his robe.  Anyway, fairly clearly
                  Dorothy Gayle.
As a color, a shade of Purple-Gray
                  uh, yeah.

david rickel
decwrl!amdcad!cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat 11 Jan 86 18:16:32-EST
From: Chris.Durham <CD0V@TE.CC.CMU.EDU>
Subject: trek question

In "The Menagerie", Spock states that what they are viewing on the
screen ocurred 13 years ago.

"Space Seed" happened after "The Menagerie", I think all will agree
on that.

STII , The Wrath of Khan, happened 15 years after "Space Seed",
according to Khan.

This makes the Enterprise at least 28 years old.

The Commander of Star Fleet, in STIII, said that the Enterprise was
20 years old. Can anyone give a reasonable "rationalization" for
this discrepancy, other than the fact that the writers made a
mistake in assigning the age of the Enterprise according to the 20
years ago that "Star Trek" first aired?

Chris Durham

CD0V@TE.CC.CMU.EDU <arpa>
CD0V%TE.CC.CMU.EDU@CU20B.BITNET
CD0V%TE.CC.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.MAILNET

------------------------------

From: ihlpa!ibyf@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott)
Subject: Re: trek question
Date: 13 Jan 86 17:01:21 GMT

Yes, this is due to the time-inducive warp effect caused by anyone
wearing a wristwatch (or simialr time related device) while being
transported via the transporter beam.  The result of this effect is
a loss of real time (depending on baud rate) of approx. .6 seconds.
If you take this factor and multiply it by the number of poeple
"beamed down" to a planet surface, taking into account the distance
from earth at the time, the average hight of the pyramids squared,
the suns gravitational effect on the universe as a whole, the age of
Gene, Bill, Leonard, and Deforrest, and of course the number of
times Scotty said "..dilythium crystals..." times pi to the eighth
power, you'll find that the result is exactly 7.9543621 years.  Now,
who would expect the Commander to know that? I'm sure he just
rounded it off to eight years because he's got more important things
to think about!

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Bankrupt at the Memory Bank
Date: 13 Jan 86 10:04:00 GMT

Well, I was warned but I watched it anyway (on 14" monochrome).

I should have known better. Apart from messing up the story for dumb
reasons instead of good dramatic reasons, the production reminded me
of one of those BBC-2 'Out of the Unknown's from the '60s.

This sort of thing gives public broadcasting a bad name (though it
was shown in the UK on a commercial channel)

Could Glen A. Larson have done any better? NO, but that's no
compensation.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 11 Jan 86 15:46:00 GMT

A brief agreement with some of dht's observations.

Good description is (in my opinion) one of the hardest things in
writing to do well.  Writing books/instructors/workshops carp at
beginning writers to avoid excess description because so much
beginner's description is terribly overwritten or otherwise
non-effective.  The problem is, once the beginners get past the
beginner's stage, most of them don't go back and pick it up.

I don't think all works would benefit from more description, but I
agree that many would.

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Reply to Davis Tucker re: adjectives
Date: 13 Jan 86 09:42:56 GMT

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>Your last point is that if one never describes at all, one has less
>work to do.  Having just spent about a week trimming unneeded
>description from a short story, trying to make more clear and
>complete my image in real terms, I can tell you: it just ain't so.
>It's bloody well harder to do what you need to do in 100 words than
>1000.

That does not mean that Mr. Tucker is wrong---or perhaps it depends
on your definition of description.  To me, description need not
include color, or temperature, or any of those things for which we
use adjectives.  It can consist entirely of the actions and feelings
of a character.  Do not misunderstand: I like adjectives---in
moderation.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: sexual slant in SF books ( side issue )
Date: 11 Jan 86 20:50:05 GMT

MRC@PANDA writes:
> population.  Exclusively gay societies are unlikely to exist
> because (in general) gays don't reproduce and even when they do,
> 85% of the children turn out to be straight.

As a side comment, I remember a story that included ( tho' not as
the main story ) the fact the society was now exclusively ( almost )
gay.  The world government had encouraged this behaviour from
centuries back as a means to birth control. ( no explicit details
tho' ). The story was about a long war ( drawn out by the effects of
relativity ), called something like "The 1000 year war" or some
such.

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 86 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:

              Books - Auel (4 msgs) & Brust & Clarke &
                      Lindholm & Lustbader & Story Identification,
              Films - Bladerunner,
              Miscellaneous - Catching Up & Descriptions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: "The Earth's Children Series: Clan of the Cave Bear", Jean M.
Subject: Auel
Date: 12 Jan 86 22:16:22 GMT

The Clan of the Cave Bear
Jean M. Auel
Bantam Books, 1980   (paperback)

This is my second time through this book, in preparation for reading
the third book in the series, "The Mammoth Hunters".  The Earth's
Children Series is not really science fiction.  And it sure isn't
fantasy.  But it seems appropriate for this group.  The series deals
with the life and times of an early homo sapiens forced by
circumstances to live with Neanderthals.

This book is excellent, the woodlore seems as completely researched,
and the characters are vivid.  The author has taken very few
liberties, all required to advance the plot.  For example,
Neanderthals have a form of tribal memory that can be brought out by
a sort of telepathic trance.  I doubt there is hard achaeological
evidence of such a trait.  Also, our heroine stands a bit larger
than life, constantly making startling discoveries or drawing
conclusions that are very far removed from her own experience.

In spite of what I perceived as inconsistencies, the book hangs
together remarkably well.  It is very easy to visualize yourself in
the correct environment and to empathize with the characters.  Even
on second reading, the detailed descriptions of the people and the
land held as much interest as they did the first time.

On my scale of -4 to +4, I'd easily rate this one a +3.  There are a
few flaws, but they are minor and easily overlooked as you consume
this slice of life from the end of an Ice Age.

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: "The Earth's Children Series: Valley of Horses", Jean M. Auel
Date: 12 Jan 86 22:18:02 GMT

The Valley of Horses
Jean M. Auel
Bantam Books, 1982   (paperback)

This is the second book in the Earth's Children Series by Jean Auel.
This is my second time through this book, in preparation for reading
the next book in the series, "The Mammoth Hunters".

The first 350 or so pages of the 550 page tome are split between
Ayla's continuing saga in the Valley of Horses and the story of two
brothers, Jondalar and Thonolan, who are undertaking a Journey.
Ayla has been cursed and is now living on her own.  She still thinks
of herself more as Clan than Other, and in some ways this is more a
story of her acceptance of her heritage and destiny than anything
else.

I found myself getting pretty impatient for the two story lines to
join.  I remember when I first read this book, I felt pretty much
the same way.  But Auel has adopted a dime-novel romance style and
obviously wanted to exploit it fully.  Substitute a castle turret
for the cave and you almost have a classic gothic romance.  But
mixed in are details of life as a human being 30,000 B.C.

In spite of the rather trashy romantic interludes (our heroine is a
tall, slender, gorgeous blond with large breasts - and she thinks
she's ugly; our hero is a 6'6" tall muscular blond who is repeatedly
described as irresistably sexy and unbelievably tender and the best
lover in at least 3 tribes) I love Ms Auel's imagery.  However, the
power of the images makes the first 350 or so pages disconcerting to
read since they alternate between our hero (oh yeah, he has a large
cock and knows how to use it), and our heroine.  I found it was best
at times to put the book down at the end of a chapter and come back
to it in a few minutes.  At other times, I couldn't put it down even
though I've read it before.

I found this book very hard to rate.  There are places where it is
as good as anything I've ever read, and there are places where it is
as bad as I imagine Harlequin romances would be.  There's a good
100-or-so pages where the lover's are desperately yearing for each
other and yet very depressed over the fact that the other "won't
like them."  And these are people who discover how to use flint and
iron to make fire; and how to make a spear thrower given the
concepts of spear and slingshot; and learn how to talk in a couple
of days.

On my scale of -4 to +4, I think I'd rate this a +2.  There are
probably 250-300 pages worth of +4, and almost as many that I'd rate
-2 or worse.  It's the description of the land and how to survive,
and the believability that earns this book my final rating.  You'll
probably enjoy reading it, and if you hit a bad spot, just remember
there'll be a diamond just beyond that cesspool.

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: "The Earth's Children Series: Mammoth Hunters", Jean M. Auel
Date: 12 Jan 86 22:20:09 GMT

The Mammoth Hunters
Jean M. Auel
Crown Publishers, 1985  (paperback)

This is the third (and so far last) book in the Earth's Children
Series by Jean M. Auel.  It deals with the lives of humans during
the ice ages 30000 or so years ago.  In particular, it deals with
Ayla, a homo sapiens who was brought up by Neanderthals until she
turned 15, then lived alone for 2 years, and started this book by
living with a tribe of homo sapiens from a large group known as the
Mamuti.

The book starts out great, and goes into the usual detail of the
lives and customs of the first humans.  Because of the writing style
and imagery, you are willing to accept almost anything Ms. Auel felt
had to be added to advance the plot.  Our heroine has discovered
modern medicine (including stitches), Bic lighters (sort of), spear
throwers, and animal husbandry (including being the first being to
ride a horse).  In this book, she discovers sewing (needles with
eyes for threads), etc.

However, the last 400 or so pages (out of roughly 650) are shit.
Ms. Auel has a talent for making a scene of tender, romantic
lovemaking about as interesting as eating raw liver.  The last 2/3
of the book deal with Ayla's true love for Jondalar, how they love
each other soooooo much that they can't see it (???), how Ayla makes
every man's blood boil, and how she lives with and loves another man
for a good 250-300 pages in spite of all that.  Even the other
characters in the book (who take a decidedly second-row seat to this
crap and suffer as a result) can see what's happening.

The "other man" is black, beautiful, has a large cock (all the main
characters are well endowed), makes love like anything, is an
artist, and has rhythm.  He's also the only black in the book.  I
would usually say SPOILER here, but if you miss this on or about
page 1 you shouldn't be allowed out in public without a keeper or
seeing-eye dog.  Ayla and Jondalar meet in a tender and yet boring
and meaningless scene with only 5 or so pages to go.  Some
cliff-hanger romance.

The magic and beauty of the first two books is so completely
subsumed in this non-existent romantic triangle that everything
stands out in sharp relief.  Where I forgave artifices meant to
advance the plot in the first two books, they stand out and act
further against the book and the plot.  The mysticism that was kept
only in the background for the other books becomes a major force
with the Mamut (medicine man) constantly saying Ayla has a destiny.
Even Ayla worries about this.  As a reader, it makes me wonder why
Ms. Auel had to include it after writing such excellent books
without resorting to it in the past.

I figure that Ms. Auel:
        a) hasn't made love in years
    or  b) had a major stroke after writing the first 1/3 of the
           book
    or  c) was given a subscription to Harlequin romances and it
           warped her mind.
    or  d) had the book ghost written by someone named Bambi.

On my scale of -4 to +4, this book rates a -1.  I'd have gone for -3
except for the first 1/3 and the occasional (but very infrequent)
bursts of magic like those that fill most of the first two books.
Don't rush to read this one, wait for it in used paperback shops or
borrow it if you're bedridden.

P.S.  The worst (or best?) thing about this book is that it is
obvious we can expect at least one other book and probably many
more.  I don't think I'll be sucked into paying hardcover prices
again without seeing a review first.

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick)
Subject: Notes on Jean M. Auel
Date: 16 Jan 86 02:42:11 GMT

Heard her interviewed on the Larry King radio program the other
night.  She is planning 6 books in the series, though if the recent
review is on the mark, I wonder if she'll get that far.

An interesting sidelight is that both she and her husband are former
employees of Tektronix in Oregon.

rick heli
...{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick

------------------------------

From: ihnp3!gsky@caip.rutgers.edu (glenn kapetansky)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 14 Jan 86 22:01:50 GMT

I just wanted to put in my two shekels worth. I also enjoyed
Brokedown Palace. I have read all of SKZB's stuff, and only liked
them all (except To Reign In Hell, but perhaps that's because I'm a
fan of John Milton's and feel that High matters require the use of
"High English"). SKZB has a very casual conversational style which
transforms the almost non-existent plot into a rollicking good read.
I think it was Stephen Donaldson who wrote that some authors are
good character writers, some are good plot writers, some are good at
describing scenery. For instance, I feel Poul Anderson is a good
writer in all three categories. I think SKZB is a good writer of the
first category, and getting better.

glenn kapetansky
...ihnp3!gsky

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Message path to Arthur C. Clarke being sought
Date: 14 Jan 86 03:21:59 GMT

We are looking for a path to send electronic mail to Arthur C.
Clarke.  We are interested in sending him some information about
some advanced AI and supercomputer that we are working on (since he
predicted them all anyway).

Thanks in advance,
Kurt Reisler
..!seismo!hadron!klr

------------------------------

From: ihnp3!gsky@caip.rutgers.edu (glenn kapetansky)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of the Pigeons_ and new Tepper book
Date: 14 Jan 86 22:05:35 GMT

I just read Wizard of the Pigeons (also on the advice of Zelazny's
and Brust's blurbs on the cover), and agree that it is astoundingly
good. I just couldn't put it down! I think it was the deceptively
simple imagery that kept me enthralled, and is now encouraging me to
use big words to describe it...

Consider this a recommendation to read it. I was vaguely reminded of
Prince Ombra (by Somebody MacSomething), but I think I prefer WoftP.

glenn kapetansky
...ihnp3!gsky

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!lazarus@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel G. Winkowski)
Subject: Re: Sunset Warrior Trilogy (Eric Von Lustbader)
Date: 14 Jan 86 21:54:55 GMT

His other novels Ninja, Miko, Jian, etc... are all written in a
cross between oriental and western settings. The protagonist is
usaully a mixture from both cultures, and the plot often involves
international intrigue.

I at least, find his novels of first rate caliber. He writes with an
intamite feel for Asian culture.

A good read when you have had enough science fiction.

Dan Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2193)
UUCP:   ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus
CSNET:  lazarus@Buffalo.CSNET     ARPA: lazarus%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh)
Subject: Book Identification of Re: sex slant in SF books ( side issue
Subject: )
Date: 14 Jan 86 18:55:42 GMT

ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>As a side comment, I remember a story that included ( tho' not as
>the main story ) the fact the society was now exclusively ( almost
>) gay.  The world government had encouraged this behaviour from
>centuries back as a means to birth control. ( no explicit details
>tho' ). The story was about a long war ( drawn out by the effects
>of relativity ), called something like "The 1000 year war" or some
>such.

I believe that the story you refer to is _The Forever War_ by Joe
Haldeman (I believe) Quite enjoyable I thought.

Dave schuh

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Jan 86 00:38:36-EST
From: Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: "Bladerunner" query

Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the
word "bladerunner"? The usage of the word clearly gives its meaning
in the movie, but the word itself makes no sense at all. The word
"bladerunner" to me suggests persons who illegally smuggle edged
weapons (a la drugrunner, rumrunner, etc) which is not even remotely
akin to the usage in the movie.  This has been bugging me ever since
the movie came out, and it seems strange to me that nothing along
these lines has appeared in SFL in the several years since then.
Does PKD's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" explain the word?
I'd really be curious to hear what people have to say about it...

Vince

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1986 14:31 EST
From: Mark F. Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Accounts going down

Hello everyone.. During the past semester I have been saving all the
editions of Sf-lovers, so now I'm catching up on them.. Still 20
editions behind, but catching up fast.  Seems that here at Queens
College, we were told our accounts were going down on the 10th till
whatever week in the next semester they bring them up again.  Well,
the fact that I'm writing this means that either someone made a goof
or they are giving everyone an extra week. (next semester starts on
Jan. 30th) But till then, the printers aren't working, and I don't
have enough disk space to keep 2 to 4 weeks of Sf-lovers. I can't
keep em in my Electronic mailbox either because every once in a
while there is a system crash or they just purge all files more than
a week old.  So, what I'm getting at is, that I'll need someone to
send me the editions I missed (probably 2 or 3 at a time starting
with #6) when I get my account back.

Anybody read the SpellSinger series?? It's by Piers Anthony. A
fantasy book.  So far there are 5 books in the series.  Are there
any new Sector General books around?? (James (??) White) Anybody
watching Dr. Who. Here on channel 50 (Wljn- Montclair, New Jersey)
they are showing the William Hartnell episodes. For any non-Whovians
out there, he was the very first Dr. Who. This was from about 21
years ago.  Also, every other week they show one of the new Colin
Baker episodes. Channel 50 shows complete episodes instead of 1/2
per.  I live in New York City, so the reception isn't great, but
good enough.

See ya
Mark Rand

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1986 17:17:38 PST
Subject: adjectives
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

  Well, I'm by no means a professional writer, but I have heard some
professional writers talk about technique. The one thing I seem to
recall is that description is good, but adjectives are (relatively)
bad.  In other words, use you non-ordinary nouns and verbs to convey
description, not long strings of adjectives and adverbs. Thus,
"Jerry snarled" is better than "Jerry violently said." This seems
reasonable to me.

john platt
platt@cit-20
scgvaxd!cit-vax!platt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jan 86 0817-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:

         Books - Dick & McCaffrey & The Flying Sorcerors &
                 Bladerunner (2 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - Descriptions & Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: PKD Society
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 86 09:43:41 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>

For anyone with a strong interest in Philip K. Dick:

        The Philip K. Dick Society
        Box 611
        Glen Ellen, CA  95442

"Membership" in the PKDS includes the PKDS Newsletter, published
four times a year.

There have been 8 issues so far.  The newsletter has included
unpublished interviews with PKD, interviews with his friends, and
information about PKD publishing and media projects.  The 7th issue
was an unpublished story outline by PKD for the T.V. show "The
Invaders".  The 9th and 10th issues are being combined and released
(scheduled for about now) as a cassette tape: "90 Minutes with
Philip K. Dick".

Membership is about 600 people.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 17 Jan 86 02:42:15 GMT

  In reference to the question of whether dragonriders necessarily
mated when their dragons did, I offer the following quote from
"Dragondrums":

<< "Menolly?" He turned to her, hands outstretched, palms up,
    pleading with her and apologizing for what he knew was about to
    happen since there were only the two of them on this becalmed
    boat in the middle of the windstill sea.  He hadn't wanted
    Menolly coerced, as she now must be; he'd wanted to be in full
    command of himself, not overridden by the mating instinct of
    Kimi.  >>

And this was only fire lizards!  Seriously, I think it is quite
obvious that dragons and riders mate simultaneously.  This was made
clear in the first book, and has not been contradicted since.

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Gods in The Flying Sorcerors
Date: 17 Jan 86 02:32:24 GMT

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:

> by the way, the book was copyright 1971 (so don't suggest that
> Peers is Piers Anthony).

  Why not?  Anthony was around even back then...

> Musk-Watz     wind god

  Sam Moskowitz, famous for long-winded discussions of SF history

> Pull'nissin   god of duels

  Poul Anderson is heavily involved in the Society for Creative
Anachronism, which often holds tourneys & such (yeah, it's weak,
but...).

> Tukker                god of names

  Bob Tucker (Wilson Tucker), famous for using his friend's names in
his stories (thus the fannish word "Tuckerizing").

> Furman                god of Fasf (whatever that is)

  Ed Ferman, long time editor of F&SF.

> Peers         mad demon, constantly snarling and gnashing

> Kate Wilhem, Judy Lynn Del-Rey?, Anne McCaffrey, Ursula K. Le
> Guin, Karen Anderson?, Andre Norton, Marian Zimmer Bradley, Leigh
> Brackett, Miriam ?, Sonya ?, Zenna Henderson, Joanna Russ, Quinn ?

  Judy Lynn (wife of Lester, currently critically ill), Karen (wife
of Poul), Quinn = Chelsea Quinn Yarbro.  Miriam may be Miriam Allen
DeFord.

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

From: lars@cartan.BERKELEY.EDU (Lars Andersson)
Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query
Date: 16 Jan 86 23:40:33 GMT

>From: Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU
>Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the
>word "bladerunner"? The usage of the word clearly gives its meaning
>in the movie, but the word itself makes no sense at all.

I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but
there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S.
Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before
the movie.

The title of the novel refers to smuggling of illegal medical
equipment, scalpels, body parts etc. Does anyone recall enough of
the book and the movie to tell if there is more resemblance than
just the title.

Also, has anyone noticed the intense resemblance between the 'feel'
of the sets in the movie "Bladerunner" and the novel "Neuro- mancer"
by William Gibson. He claims to have seen part of the movie but left
in the middle when he noticed how much it resembled his own
settings.... And this guy is THE S.F. writer who is most influenced
by W.S. Burroughs, sometimes you feel that he has lifted whole
paragraphs out of the work of W.S.B.

Lars

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query
Date: 17 Jan 86 00:02:44 GMT

There is a SF novel by Alan Norse called "Bladerunner".  In the
world depicted in the novel all medical care by law is done at
government run clinics and hospitals.  The law also says that if you
need medical care and are found to have any "undesirable" genetic
traits they sterilize you.  Most people thus try not to go to a
clinic until they have had kids.  Some doctors are rebeling against
this law by secretly providing medical care on the black market. A
"Bladerunner" is a black market supplier of illegal medical
supplies.

It is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Description in WritingD
Date: 14 Jan 86 19:30:00 GMT

>> = Charlie Martin
>  = William Woody

>> (responding to Davis Tucker)
>> I agree with you that being able to clearly understand an
>> important character -- and I don't think you put it strongly
>> enough when you say "if for nothing else than to define them as
>> real, living, flawed, human beings."  An important character
>> *must be* a real flawed human being for us to accept him and to
>> develop the relationship we must for the fiction to become a
>> vivid dream (you knew I was going to say it at least once,
>> right?)

>> But using adjectives at least as often gets in the way!  I have a
>> perfectly good image of Ender Wiggin, thanks, and I don't need
>> for Card to tell me extra stuff.  Far more important that he
>> tells me about Ender's *feelings* and *failings* and why he isn't
>> a normal kid and what that makes him instead.

I think that deft selection of adjectives/description can add a lot
to a story and many writers are too lazy or not confident enough to
do it.  One of the ways you convey a character is in how he/she/it
sees the world; for this, accurate description is absolutely
necessary.  Mood, via description, adds to understanding of a
characters feelings and failings.  The trick is to find the specific
image that works, to avoid using two images where one will do, and
not to overwrite.  Point of view is also a consideration.  If my
third-person is told from a character's point of view, my
description will be through those eyes.  If I'm using a third-person
omniscient, my description will be through the filter of an auctorial
intelligence consistent for that story.

>> Hemingway -- no slouch of a writer there -- consciously avoided
>> the use of adjectives.  And did it completely intentionally:
>> (although I can't find the reference right now, so this won't be
>> a direct quote) he wrote about this that he felt it was none of
>> his business how we saw his characters, and that he didn't want
>> to make judgements for us.  He wanted us simply to understand
>> them and make our own judgements.  For this reason, he avoided
>> the use of adjectives whenever possible.

How much of a slouch is debatable.  I personally find Hemingway to
be a one-dimensional writer, interested in conveying only a narrow
segment of that "vivid dream" that we both seem to feel is
important.

>> I think he went too far: or at least, he takes it too far from
>> what I think I can manange myself.  But using lots of adjectives
>> in the attempt to give the "atmosphere" is often a mark of a nice
>> 80,000 word novel hidden in a 150,000 (or 300,000!) word tome.

There's a difference between padding and good description.  You seem
to know the difference; I wish more writers would leave out the
padding, but I also wish more writers would put in good description.
I think dht may be correct about the impact of television and our
sensibilities.

>> It's bloody well harder to do what you need to do in 100 words
>> than 1000.

   Amen.

>> Adjectives are all to often waste space, trying to force us to
>> see what the author has not been able to imagine clearly enough
>> him(her)self: because if the imagination is clear enough, the
>> real details will carry without them.

Uh, yes and no.  Many times the imagination IS flabby, leaving us
with bland description that attempts to FORCE the image.  On the
other hand, other writers seem to have a fine imagination; I just
wish they would use description that evokes what they see so that I
could see it, too.

>> This is your last para: "Our adjectives are leaving us, slowly
>> and surely, and they sail away on a rusty freighter flying a
>> plague flag, out of the dying port of a nation conquered one
>> hundred years ago in a horrible war of on attrition and
>> starvation, sailing into a polluted sunset over an oily sea."

>> This is a nice example of what can be done with adjectives:
>> (forgive me) overwritten, daubed over with sentiment, painted in
>> garish colors like Socialist Realism paintings above Lenin's
>> tomb.  But (if these shipboard adjectives were characters), it
>> would tell us nothing about them: it doesn't make us see the
>> sunset better (a polluted sunset often has the most wonderful
>> colors), it doesn't tell us how *they* feel about the war (why
>> are they leaving?  are they the conquerors or the conquered?),
>> and it tugs at our gut level emotional response like a collie
>> puppy in a pet-store display.  Far better to make a story from
>> what a character thinks, feels, and believes than to have to get
>> one's effects through tricks that put one in mind of the oncoming
>> trains in a 3D movie.

Oh, come on, let's not give Socialist Realism that good a name.  For
effect, it wasn't bad.  Make it "...port of a long conquered nation,
sailing into..." and it's not that bad at all.  It evokes a scene,
(gaudy, true), and sets up all the questions you ask.  Yes, to go on
and convey the feelings and thoughts of the characters is important,
but so is an emotional context.

>  Bravo, Davis Tucker.  After reading his thought provoking essay
>  on description, I slowly climbed out of my chair, crossed the
>  cluttered hovel that is my home, and pulled some of the dust
>  covered books from the makeshift shelf where they rest.  Of the
>  tattered, dogeared books which I love and re-read the most, not a
>  one lack the element of description so important to conveying an
>  interesting (or not so interesting) idea into a very interesting
>  story.

Congratulations.  Yours is the first entry in the non-annual
Imitation Davis Tucker Contest.

>  But not in books!  When a woman is described in a screen play as
>  "beautiful", you ask Casting for a lot of beautiful women and the
>  author looks over all of them, until he finds the one who is
>  "perfect".  But when you say "beautiful" in a book without any
>  other description, the author has one picture in mind, the reader
>  cannot help but form another picture, and communication is lost.
>  The author loses control over his story.  Instead of telling us
>  stories about giants and armies marching across blood-stained
>  fields or of gleaming spaceships racing across a starry sky, the
>  storyteller is doing nothing except putting words on paper for
>  money.

Agreed on the first part.  The trick is to find those specific
images that will make the reader think the woman is beautiful.  But
storytellers are always doing nothing putting words on paper; the
trick is in finding which words.  (Hmm, sounds like a Lazarus Long
aphorism.)

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: reply about criticism
Date: 14 Jan 86 19:28:00 GMT

>> I'll agree with your uncertainty.  It does seem that, on one
>> hand, one can't review adequately unless one understands the
>> writing process from the inside.  On the other hand, a review by
>> an unsuccessful writer is suspect to envy and jealousy if it's a
>> negative review, or ass-kissing if it's a positive review.  In
>> either event, the audience/author can ask, "Who is *s/he* to
>> criticize the work?"  A review by a peer, a seasoned pro, is even
>> more suspect to charges of jealousy/favoritism.

>> = me, jimb

> It's certainly not true that someone who can't create can't
> adequately review or criticize. As long as pithy sayings are
> bandied about, there is always, "I may not know what art is, but I
> know what I like." I cannot draw or paint worth beans, but
> occasionally my mother asks me to critique her latest painting. In
> what seems like at least 80% of the time, she'll respond to my
> critique with, "That's what my art teacher said."
>
>        Saying that someone who can't write cannot criticize or
> review a piece of writing is akin to saying that someone can't
> fix a electrical appliance unless he knows how to invent one.
> = Jerry Boyajian

Uh, wait a minute.  Knowing whether or not you *like* something is
different from having the capacity to criticize it.  In general, I
don't care for modern art -- my tastes are pretty representational,
not abstract.  However, after dutifully watching one of the PBS
series on modern art ("The Shock of the New"?), I understood more
about it and had my opinion of *some* works/artists changed, e.g.,
Kadinsky.  I have had similar revisions of liking some literature
after having had a guided tour, e.g., Joyce, Faulkner; on the
otherhand I can't bring myself to like other work even after such an
experience, e.g. Smollett, Richardson, Trollope (yechhh!).

It seems to me that to be a critic, you have to have some
understanding of what the author is intending, even if you don't
sympathize.  In the case of you and your mother's paintings, you
obviously have the understanding, whether your education has been
formal or by osmosis or both.  Note that the examples I used involve
the issue of accessibility.  Many people will not like a work simply
because it is not easily accessible (I sense that this is at the
crux of the Dhalgren argument, but since I haven't read it, I'm
staying out of that one).  It's easy to say "I don't like a work" if
its not accessible, but I don't know that that constitutes fair
criticism.  (I also think that accessibility is critical fair game,
e.g., "Did the author need to make the work as inaccessible as it
is?" -- more fuel for the Dhalgren folk.)

>> Very few people (I think) would argue that a Spiderman comic book
>> is superior to FINNEGAN'S WAKE, but relatively few people will
>> read FW instead of the comic book.

> That would depend on who wrote the Spiderman comic book.  If it
> was Alan Moore, than chances are that I *would* argue that it was
> better than FINNEGAN'S WAKE.

Not being a minimalist, I find it difficult to find anything
worthwhile in something as limited as a comic-book script, and
certainly not on more than an extraordinary occasional basis.  If I
could pry my elitist pre-conceptions aside, I *would* be interested
to hear your arguments.

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jan 86 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bradley & Brust & Haldeman &
                        McCaffrey & Robinson &
                        The Flying Sorcerors (2 msgs) &
                        The Nebula Ballot,
                Radio - Douglas Adams,
                Miscellaneous - Origin of "Bladerunner" (3 msgs) &
                        Neuromantics & Descriptions (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 86 08:39:40 PST (Friday)
From: JOConnell.ES@xerox.com
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest/Darkover Requests

Just received the latest copy of the Darkover Newsletter #31 from
MZB Enterprises, P.O. Box 72, Berkeley, CA 94701.

Contents include a letter from MZB, letters to the group and MZB, a
logic puzzle, a "complete" list of the Works of MZB (including
current and future releases), a listing of Darkover fan groups,
bookstore, etc., and a manuscript contest/subscription form for
future newsletters.

They hope to publish quarterly and continue the Darkover Newsletter
format as published in past issues.

Jim O'Connell (JOConnell.es@XEROX.COM)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 86 10:53 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Greatful Dead references in Brokedown Palace?

Ok... I'm not a Deadhead... but my curiosity is aroused.  Would some
Deadhead/SF-Lover who has read Brokedown Palace post a list of the
references within that book to any and all Grateful Dead albums,
lyrics, song titles, graphics, etc.?

In politeness to others... if you post anything on this subject to
SF-Lovers, consider putting a "SPOILER WARNING" at the beginning, if
appropriate.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 Jan 1986 12:36:59-PST
From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Gay society in Haldeman's THE FOREVER WAR

As I recall the story, the predominately gay society in THE FOREVER
WAR did not result because of government encouragement to promote
population control.  Rather, it evolved from the use of artificial
insemination and artificial wombs for procreation.  Pregnancy being
undesireable in such a society, homosexual activity was preferred
since it didn't require bothering with contraceptives.  Gay sex
became so prevalent that eventually heterosexuality was regarded as
perverted.  The main character in THE FOREVER WAR grew up in an
earlier phase of society in our near future, where heterosexuality
was the rule.  The members of the homosex society nickname him "the
old queer."

PSW

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 17 Jan 86 15:49:36 GMT

farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes:

>  In reference to the question of whether dragonriders necessarily
>mated when their dragons did, I offer the following quote from
>"Dragondrums":
><< "Menolly?" He turned to her, hands outstretched, palms up,
>    pleading with her and apologizing for what he knew was about to
>    happen since there were only the two of them on this becalmed
>    boat in the middle of the windstill sea.
>...
>And this was only fire lizards!  Seriously, I think it is quite
>obvious that dragons and riders mate simultaneously.  This was made
>clear in the first book, and has not been contradicted since.

   I guess I'm *still* obtuse.  I read the phrase "was about to
happen since there were only the two of them" as "sure, dragonriders
get excessively horny when their mounts mount (sorry ;-), and need
sexual release, but it ("The Act") can happen with any old person
who happens to be around."  Still, when I reread the books (I only
read the first 4-5), I'll allow myself to be open to your
interpretation.

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1986 16:02:25 EST (Wed)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.ARPA>
Subject: NIGHT OF POWER by Spider Robinson

Spider Robinson's new novel is out in paperback.  NIGHT OF POWER is
a near-future look at the prognosis for racial conflict in the
United States.  It's got startlingly realistic cultural and
technological extrapolation, full of the usual Spider loving
kindness and tender philosophy, leavened with an unusual amount of
sex and violence.  People whose stomachs will not take the S&V are
to be pitied, for they will miss a good read.  People who *like* S&V
will be teased, but not spoiled, by the information that he
describes an achingly beautiful first orgasm, and the most
imaginative homicide I have ever heard of.

For those of you who want to see slant labels on their sex, let me
warn you that the sex is all hetero, and touches on (and
occasionally fondles) prostitution, rape, pubescents, adultery, and
(gasp) miscegenation.  This notice is a transparent excuse for
offering my opinion that people who want sexual orientation labels
on book covers have their head in the sand or worse.  I'd rather
that novelists feel free to include whatever form of sexuality will
serve their theme, but that warning labels be required on the dull,
trite, boring, unreadable, stupid slush that fills ninety percent of
the bookshelves.  Which is harder to identify with, characters full
of lust for members of their own sex, or characters full of nothing
at all?

I am glad to see that Spider, famed nemesis of the Hax of Sol III,
has taken the initiative in instituting my scheme of warnings.  The
absence of inanity labels on NIGHT OF POWER is true truth in
advertising.

Dan

------------------------------

Subject: Flying Sorcerers
Date: 17 Jan 86 11:21:33 PST (Fri)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        The god Musk-Watz has gotta be Stanley Moscowitz, an
editor/writer of years past.  He was quite verbose, cranking out
essays and the like on the nature of science fiction and society by
the bundle ( thus earning the title of Wind God ).  Fine-line is a
type of high quality machine pencil, a favorite brand used by
engineer types; I don't think it has anything to do with RAH.
Dorthi, the wizard who gets fallen on by Purple ( who then gets
Dorthi's robe and shoes ) is indeed a poke at The Wizard of Oz.
        Did you not notice the puns around and about the flying
machine ?  It was named the CatHawk ( Lant yelling "The CatHawk has
landed !!" ), and was built by the brothers Wilville and Orbur (
Wilbur and Orville Wright and the Kittyhawk... ).
        'As a color; shade of purple-grey' ?  Yeah, right.

Dave Godwin
Dept. of I&CS
University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 18:00:49 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Flying Sorcerous Ghods!

"Furman" aka Edward L. Ferman, has been editor of F&SF for some
time; before him his father was also editor (but I can't recall his
first name).

Musk-Watz is Leo Moskowitz (sp?) author of _The Screaming Sky_ or
something like that...

Tukker is Wilson Tucker

Quinn -- Chelsea Quinn Yarbro?

Pull'nissin, aka Poul Anderson is god of duels, I suspect for having
been in the Society for Creative Anachronism, where he is a knight.

As everyone knows, Poup is good fertiliser (:-)

I'm told, by the way, that this discussion has come up before, and
is doubtless archived...

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Preliminary 1985 Nebula Ballot
Date: 15 Jan 86 17:32:00 GMT

The preliminary Nebula ballot is out; for those who are interested,
following is a list of the front runners.  The format is:

(Category)    (# of works nominated)

(TITLE, Author)   (# of nominations)

I've listed the the top x# of works in each category.

Novel  (152)

ENDER'S GAME, Orson Scott Card  (42)
DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE, Tim Powers  (23)
THE REMAKING OF SIGMUND FREUD, Barry Malzberg  (19)
ANCIENT OF DAYS, Michael Bishop (18)
BLOOD MUSIC, Greg Bear (18)
HELLICONIA WINTER, Brian W. Aldiss  (18)
THE POSTMAN, David Brin  (18)
IN THE DRIFT, Michael Swanick  (13)
SCHISMATRIX, Bruce Sterling (13)
ARTIFACT, Gregory Benford (12)
CHILD OF FORTUNE, Norman Spinrad (12)
FOOTFALL, Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle  (12)

Others of note based on net traffic:

BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR, James Tiptree, Jr.   (10)
ALWAYS COMING HOME, Ursula LeGuin  (10)
EON, Greg Bear  (9)
THE BOOK OF KELLS, R.A. MacAvoy  (7)
TO REIGN IN HELL, Steven Brust, aka SKZB  (7)
THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS, Robert Heinlein  (5)
CONTACT, Carl Sagan  (millyuns and millyuns, er, 4)
FLIGHT FROM NEVERYON, Samuel R. Delany  (4)
LIBERTY'S WORLD, Lee Killough  (4)
ROBOTS AND EMPIRE, Isaac Asimov  (3)
TRUMPS OF DOOM, Roger Zelazny  (3)
GALAPAGOS, Kurt Vonnegut  (2)

Novella  (28)

SAILING TO BYZANTIUM, Robert Silverberg  (21)           IASFM, Feb.
THE ONLY NEAT THING TO DO, James Tiptree, Jr.  (18)     F&SF, Oct.
24 VIEWS OF MT. FUJI, BY HOKUSAI, Roger Zelazny  (15)   IASFM, Jul.
THE GORGON FIELD, Kate Wilhelm  (13)                    IASFM, Aug.
DUKE PASQUALE'S RING, Avram Davidson  (12)              Amaz., May
GREEN DAYS IN BRUNEI, Bruce Sterling  (12)              IASFM, Oct.
GREEN MARS, Kim Stanley Robinson  (12)                  IASFM, Sept.

Novelette  (101)

THE FRINGE, Orson Scott Card  (27)                      F&SF, Oct.
THE JAGUAR HUNTER, Lucius Shepard  (20)                 F&SF, May
WITH VIRGIL ODDUM AT THE EAST POLE, Harlan Ellison  (19)  Omni, Jan.
DOGFIGHT, Michael Swanick & William Gibson  (17)        Omni, Jul.
PORTRAITS OF HIS CHILDREN, George R.R. Martin  (16)     IASFM, Nov.
SOLSTICE, James Patrick Kelly  (15)                     IASFM, Jul

Short Story  (267)

PALADIN OF THE LOST HOUR, Harlan Ellison  (20)          UNIVERSE;
                                                        TZ, Dec.
OUT OF ALL THEM BRIGHT STARS, Nancy Kress  (14)         F&SF, Mar.
THE WAR AT HOME, Lewis Shiner  (14)                     IASFM, May
FLYING SAUCER ROCK AND ROLL, Edward Waldrop  (12)       Omni, Jan.
THE GODS OF MARS, Gardner Dozois, Jack Dann,  (12)      Omni, Mar.
     & Michael Swanick
TOURISTS, Lisa Goldstein  (12)                          IASFM, Feb.
DINNER IN AUDOGHAST, Bruce Sterling  (11)               IASFM, May
GODEL'S DOOM, George Zebrowski   (11)            Popular Computing,
                                                 Feb; F&SF, Feb. 86
MENGELE, Lucius Shepard  (11)                           UNIVERSE

Minor comments: With the number of nominations in each category,
it's obvious that almost everything published in a major 'zine got at
least one nomination.  Also, since many SFWA members don't have/take
the time to read widely, there's a lot of nominations for people
they know and/or admire.

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Douglas Adams on KCRW
Date: 16 Jan 86 03:42:00 GMT

For those of you in the LA area, Douglas Adams is going to be on
KCRW (89.9 FM) on Monday, Jan 20 at 2:00p.m. on a show called
Castaway.  KCRW plays alot of NPR stuff, but I'm not sure if this is
a local show or not. If it is, those of you not in the LA area are
sort of out of luck; if it isn't then it might be an NPR station in
your area.  Check your local NPR station's guide.

I've never listened to Castaway before, but from what I gathered
from the announcement for it, it's an interview show that asks the
guest what they'd [take with them, do] if they were castaway on a
deserted island. On the other hand, I'm suffering from major work
overload accompanied by brain burn-out, so I may have gotten that
part wrong. The date and time, however, I'm sure about.

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780!dianeh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 08:59 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: "Bladerunner" query

>From: Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU
>Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the
>word "bladerunner"?...Does PKD's "Do Androids Dream of Electric
>Sheep" explain the word?  I'd really be curious to hear what people
>have to say about it...

As I recall, Dick never used the word.  The producers of the film
came up with it.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 86 09:56:05 PST (Friday)
Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query
From: Dewing.osbunorth@xerox.com

>Does anyone out in netland have a clue as to the etymology of the
>word "bladerunner"?

 Someone who is always running on the edge of ... destruction,
death, madness, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86 16:43:44 est
From: stormwatch@borax.lcs.mit.edu (Mark L. Lambert)
Subject: BladeRunner origins

Interesting question; I hadn't thought about it 'til now.  Perhaps
the word "Bladerunner" alludes to an assassin-like style of work
("running a blade" through some poor replicant in a dark alley).
The word would then have negative connotations, which ties in with
some of the themes in the movie and the book it was based on.
Still, it's at odds with the official title of their work
("retirement").

markl

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 86 12:20:01 PST (Friday)
From: Caro.PA@xerox.com
Subject: Neuromantics or Cyberpunks?

The most recent Locus contained a letter from John Shirley rebutting
a review of the so called "Cyberpunk" panel at Houston NASFIC(?).
Apparantly there was a ruckus and a walkout.  I've read both the
review and the letter.  Anyone know any more details?

More importantly, Shirley made some pretty dramatic statments about
"The Movement".  Something about "... With the arrival of The
Movement, science fiction is unbound." [this quote is to my best
recollection and is probably inaccurate].

I recall that Rudy Rucker, Bruce Sterling, John Shirley were on the
panel, but I don't remember who the other "cyberpunks" were.
Actually, like Shirley, I prefer the term "Neuromantics", coined by
Spinrad, just because it is such a neat word.  I have no idea what,
or who, it is supposed to represent.  I have never read anything by
any of the authors who were on the panel, although just yesterday I
went out and bought "Master of Time & Space" by Rucker, and "Three
Ring Psychus" by Shirley, just to see what this is all about.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what all the commotion is about, and
who, or what are the Neuromantics?  Another New Wave on the New
Wave?

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 86  9:46:30 EST
From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: adjectives and descriptions

I make no pretense of being either a writer or a literary critic
(but I know what I like :-)).  I favor a writing style more sparse
than otherwise, as I believe that in skilled hands it doesn't take a
lot of words to establish atmosphere or mood.  I have always been
fond of Mark Twain's aphorism from Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
(this is a close enough quotation to deserve the marks): "As to the
adjective: when in doubt, strike it out."

This is not to say that pure description cannot be beautiful
literature.  My favorite example is the opening chapter of Dickens's
_Bleak_House_.

JBL
arpanet: Levin@bbncc2.arpa
uucp:    {ihnp4 and others}!bbncca!levin

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Replay to Davis Tucker re: adjective
Date: 15 Jan 86 03:11:00 GMT

>Hemingway -- no slouch of a writer there -- consciously avoided the
>use of adjectives.  And did it completely intentionally: (although
>I can't find the reference right now, so this won't be a direct
>quote)...

That wouldn't be the famous "Cut the crap.", would it?

>I think he went too far...

Noooooo..."The sky was blue. The sea was blue. The man was old. The
fish was big..." Great stuff!  On the other hand, there *is*
Margaret Mitchell, so maybe Ernest wasn't too far off...

Write the way you want to write, and if people like it, they'll read
it.  It's a big world out there -- plenty of room for Hemingways
*and* Mitchells.

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780!dianeh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jan 86 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:

         Books - Foster & Heinlein & McCaffrey (2 msgs) &
                 Zelazny & Star Trek,
         Television - Star Trek,
         Miscellaneous - Bladerunner (3 msgs) &
                 Description (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 18 Jan 1986 01:45:20-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Spellsinger & Sector General

> From: Mark F. Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>

> Anybody read the SpellSinger series?? It's by Piers Anthony. A
> fantasy book.  So far there are 5 books in the series.

The Spellsinger series is by Alan Dean Foster, not Piers Anthony.
And it's only a 5-volume (so far) work if you buy the paperbacks.  I
have the hardcover first editions from Phantasia Press, and the
first book, SPELLSINGER AT THE GATE, was split into two books for
paperback.

>   Are there any new Sector General books around?? (James (??)
> White)

New as of when? What was the latest one you read?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: hhb!rob@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert R Stegmann)
Subject: A second chance for Heinlein
Date: 16 Jan 86 15:22:55 GMT

A number of my friends share my interest in Science Fiction, and
have maintained despite my protests to the contrary that Robert
Heinlein is a master of the genre.  My negative opinion was formed
after I had read a few of his works that were readily available in
bookstores.

I have since heard that many believe him to have suffered a
degeneration of his writing powers associated with a medical
problem, which had recently cleared up, but that in any case his
early works were much better than his later stuff.

Unwilling to be close-minded, I accepted some of his earlier novels
on loan from a friend, and to my surprise, enjoyed them.  Now, I'm
going to summarize my *opinions* below.  Please don't ignite your
burners until after you read my request which follows.

Works of Heinlein I have read and *disliked* include:

_Number of the Beast_ - plot? what plot? ending? what ending?

_Friday_ - shallow, thin and cute (which describes the story, as
        well as the protagonist)

_Starship Troopers_ - degenerates into a philosophy lecture, which,
        if I wanted to read for recreation, I would specifically
        look for in a philosophy book.

_Expanded Universe_ - well, I read this a while ago, but the
        impression I recall is of dated material, none of which
        holds up as well as say, Asimov's

_Stranger in a Strange Land_ - strange, all right - not the type of
        stuff I prefer

Furthermore, I have already received recommendations against
_Time Enough For Love_
_The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and
_Job, a Comedy of Justice_

Heinlein I have read and *liked* include:
_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_
_Double Star_

In both of these, the plot moves right along, without significant
philosophical digressions, and without the strange cute banter I had
come to expect.  Both were published in the late fifties or early
sixties.

Without engendering a debate about whether the above opinions are
valid or not (because, after all, they are admittedly only *my*
opinions), I would like to solicit suggestions as to what other
Heinlein I might like.  Expecting useful suggestions would most
likely come from those who share my preferences, I have stated them.

Please respond by email, to the address below or that in the header.
And, as they say, adTHANKSvance.

rob
Robert R. Stegmann
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!anwar!rob

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 17 Jan 86 17:25:44 GMT

>> Hmmm... I'll have to read [the Dragon Riders of Pern] books
>> again.  I didn't at all catch the implication that when dragons
>> mated, the 'riders did also.  Was I exceedingly obtuse both times
>> I read the books, or did others also not make this
>> connection/assumption?
>> Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)
> by tradition) the riders necessarily mated with each other.  I
> think McCaffrey left that up to our imaginations -- and we all
> know what trouble that can get us in :-) !!!  Barb

For the most part this was left up to us.. However, If you read
Moretta (admittedly not actually part of the trilogy) you will
encounter not only an explicate case, but some discussion of this
predeliction.  Also in the trilogy there are allusions to *strong*
attractions carried over from dragon interrelations to their riders.
There is also discussion of the NEED for women in the weyrs with a
predisposition toward variety in their relations.  Some of this was
a suggestion of abnormality in overly stable attachments (e.g. F'nor
to Brekke).

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff  (Dragonriders)
Date: 19 Jan 86 21:33:32 GMT

ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241) writes:
> McCaffrey has never been explicit.  However, one of the
> 'differences' of dragonriders from other Pern dwellers concerned
> their sexual mores.  The male riders of the female greens tended
> to bond with the riders of blues.  (see incident witnessed by
> Piemar in _Dragondrums_)

Regarding Dragons...  Males are Blue, Bronze, and Brown.  Females
are Green and Gold, the latter being the Queens.  The Green females
are rendered sterile by use of firestone. (This is a rock on Pern...
not to be confused with the tire company which probably doesn't have
any such effect.) Now, since only males impress dragons with the
exception of the queens who impress females, the only case of the
possibility of men getting .. shall we say "worked up?" ... over
other men would be in the case of green dragons going into heat.  Is
there an instance of that mentioned in any of the books?  I wonder,
since "Greens are rendered sterile through a sex-linked disability
triggered by chronic use of firestone," (which is why Queens never
chew firestone) might it not affect them further?

Fred @ DEC
Ultrix Applications Center {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 86 00:24:00 EDT
From: "Bob Mende [NB]" <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Unicorn Variations

   A few days ago I was in a SF bookstore in New York City and I
picked up a new book by Roger Zelazny.  The Book is titled 'Unicorn
Variations' and is a collection of short stories.  I have seen a few
of the stories before but most of them are new to the reader.  The
book is published by Sphere Book (London) and is not yet available
on the US market.  This book is a MUST for all SF readers.  The
short essays before each story tell how and why each story was
written.

Bob Mende
Arpanet:   mende@aim.rutgers.edu
UUCP   :   topaz!unirot!mende

------------------------------

From: tjalk!dick@caip.rutgers.edu (Dick Grune)
Subject: Star Trek fanzine addresses sought
Date: 18 Jan 86 16:50:58 GMT

My wife asks me to post the following:

Could someone tell me name and address of a shop or magazine centre
where I could order magazine-published fan Star Trek stories?  I
mean stories by Jacqueline Lichtenberg, Jean Lorrah, Sonni Cooper
and people like them.  Or perhaps I could take out a subscription to
some fan magazines, if any are willing to mail to Europe.

        Lili Ossendrijver,
        Trompenburg 7,
        1181 NM  Amstelveen,
        the Netherlands.

Answers to net.sf-lovers or to ..!decvax!mcvax!vu44!dick will reach
us, but unfortunately net.startrek does NOT come to Europe (at least
as far as people at our installation know)

Dick Grune
Vrije Universiteit

------------------------------

Subject: Re: trek question
Date: 18 Jan 86 21:46:57 PST (Sat)
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

Re Chris Durham's query about the age of the Enterprise:

The years referred to by Khan would most likely be those of the
planet on which he was stranded.  These could be enough less than
standard years to account for the discrepency.  Especially since the
orbit of the planet was messed up after Kirk and Co. left him there.

------------------------------

Date: 18-Jan-1986 1504
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re:   "Bladerunner" query

> I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but
> there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S.
> Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before
> the movie.

and

> It is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie.

(different messages).

Ridley Scott in fact liked the title ``Bladerunner'' so much that he
purchased the film rights to the novel so that he could use the
title for his filming of ``Do Androids Dream of Electronic Sheep?''
without upsetting anybody.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1986  20:07 EST
From: INGRIA%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Burroughs and Bladerunner

>From: lars at cartan.BERKELEY.EDU (Lars Andersson)
>I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but
>there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S.
>Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before
>the movie.

The title is @i[Blade Runner (a movie)].  Calling it a novel is a
bit of an overstatement.  As the title indicates, it is more of a
sketch for a movie.  It is also pretty brief (only 74 pages with
lots of white space and sketches of movie film).

>From: sdcrdcf!markb at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
> There is a SF novel by Alan Norse called "Bladerunner".

This is also the source of the Burroughs book.  From the copyright
page:

        The author wishes to thank Alan E. Nourse, upon whose book
        @i(The Blade Runner), characters and situations in this book
        are based.

Also, @i(Bladerunner) [the Scott movie] had, somewhere in its
credits, acknowledgements to BOTH Nourse and Burroughs.
Interestingly enough, there is ANOTHER movie called @i(Blade
Runner); this one is based on the Burroughs book.  However, it is
only about 15 minutes long, only encompasses part of Burrough's
treatment, and concludes with a note advising the viewer to watch
out for Blade Runner, Part 2.  I don't know if this second movie was
ever made.  I've certainly never seen it.

>In the world depicted in the novel all medical care by law is done
>at government run clinics and hospitals.  The law also says that if
>you need medical care and are found to have any "undesirable"
>genetic traits they sterilize you.  Most people thus try not to go
>to a clinic until they have had kids.  Some doctors are rebeling
>against this law by secretly providing medical care on the black
>market. A "Bladerunner" is a black market supplier of illegal
>medical supplies.

From @i[Blade Runner (a movie)]:

        Essential to underground medicine are the blade runners, who
        transfer the actual drugs, instruments and equipment from
        the suppliers to the clients and doctors and underground
        clinics. ...

        Every underground doctor needs a blade runner, since
        possession of illegal surgical instruments and drugs is a
        felony for a doctor, as evidence of illegal practice, but a
        misdemeanor for a private citizen.

>It is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie.

Well, they did credit Nourse and Burroughs, albeit in a somewhat
cryptic fashion.  However, this does bring up a question that has
been bothering me for a while.  I can understand why producers (or
whoever) would want to change the title of works that they bought.
For example, given the general film noire/hard boiled detective feel
of the movie, I can understand why they might not want to use the
original title, @i(Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?), since it
is a humorous title, at odds with the character of the film.  Fine.
But why use the title of ANOTHER novel, rather than inventing a new
title?  This is not the first time this has happened.  Fritz
Lieber's @i(Conjure Wife) was filmed as @i(Burn, Witch, Burn!), the
title of a novel by A. Merritt.  Anybody know of any other examples
of this?  Or why it gets done?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jan 86 20:39 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: "Bladerunner"
Cc: <@RED.RUTGERS.EDU:sdcrdcf!markb@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU> (Mark Biggar)

>[Mark Biggar writes:]
>There is a SF novel by Alan Norse called "Bladerunner". [...]  It
>is my understanding that they stole the title for the movie.

No, they bought it.  Just the title, so any movie moguls out there
who want to buy the book, can.  Of course you'll have to find a new
title....  I remember this because Nourse but a little blurb in (I
think) Locus saying just that.  Apparently there were rumors that
they'd bought the whole book and just used the title.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Charlie Martin on Description
Date: 15 Jan 86 04:42:00 GMT

>...A character *is* defined by more than what they do and what they
>think - Would Cyrano de Bergerac be as fascinating if he didn't
>have a big nose and everybody had always made jokes about it?

No. Not only would he not be as fascinating, he also wouldn't be the
person he is.

>A character is a plurality, and like any human being, to describe
>them fully is important - and this also includes physical
>description. It certainly alters my perception if a character is
>ugly or beautiful, or short or tall.

It's not only a question of filling in the details in order to be
able to get a better picture of how that character looks, it's also
a question of being better able to *understand* the character -- who
he is and how he got to be that way. We would have a much harder
time being able to understand, or accept, Cyrano's insecurities (and
the panache he developed to cover them) if he hadn't been given that
protruding proboscis we've come to know and love (or if the author
had neglected to mention it!).

>You may say that this is unimportant; I think we have all accepted
>that in life, as the feminists have taught us, it is unfair to
>consider such outward attributes as sex or appearance. But we are
>not blind, deaf, and dumb, and we react toward physical appearance
>in certain ways, ways which authors should know and use.

On the other hand, if the character's physical appearance had little
to do with their development, giving a detailed description of their
physical appearance not only seems superfluous, but also limits the
possibility of each reader being able to create their own image of
how that character looks.  The degree to which a character is
described physically should be determined by its importance to the
understanding of that character.

>Davis Tucker

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780!dianeh

------------------------------

Date: Sat 18 Jan 86 13:15:37-PST
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: on writing

Rather than tell you why you *should* use less adjectives and more
verbs, let me show you an example:

1. With adjectives:

As he ran through the wet brown mud in the dark of night, his only
source of light was the whitish moonlight coming from the dark sky
above as he continued to run away from the red car that was running
after him.

2. With *descriptive* nouns and verbs:

As he trudged through the mud in the moonlight, the Corvette roared
after him, gleaming like a fire engine.

Note that unless you count "fire engine" as an adjective followed by
a noun, rather than a compound word, there are no adjectives in the
second example.  Note that they both convey approximately the same
amount of information, yet the second example is only half as long
as the first example.

Lynn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 86 0916-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brust & Nourse & Tepper &
                         Title Request (2 msgs) & A Review &
                         A Request for Reviews,
                 Miscellaneous - Descriptions &
                         Bladerunner (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 Jan 86 10:41:47-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #16

> Someone else thought that Jhereg and Yendi were set in Fairie
> since BP was in a land "east of Fairie" and concluded that this
> was the land that humans lived in Jhereg and Yendi. However there
> is no evidence of Witchcraft in BP....so unless Fairie is also
> part of the human lands ( where there is Witchcraft or is it
> sorcery? I'm not sure what the difference is ) then there seems to
> be an inconsistancy....something I don't expect from Brust. I
> don't really know what any of this means.....

The East isn't as homogenous a country as Fairie/Draegaria (spelling
optional -- I don't have the book here.)  During the early part of
Brokedown Palace there were foreign raiders tromping around.
Witchcraft could well come from elsewhere.

Or it could be practiced secretly.  It usually is secret in most
parts of most worlds.

[Random speculation warning]
By the way, Vlad's last name is Taltos.  The magic horse or whatever
in BP was called a taltos horse.  There might be some connection
beyond the vagaries of naming; e.g., if "taltos" means "magic",
perhaps Vlad's ancestors were or practiced magic.  Perhaps they were
exiled for it, even.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 86 01:28:24 EST (Mon)
Subject: Re "Bladerunner" as a title ==> Alan E. Nourse
From: ted%bragg1@braggfs

Speaking of Nourse, I haven't seen any thing by him in quite a
while.  Does anyone know if he is still alive and writing?  I must
have read _Raiders From the Rings_ 50 times while I was growing up,
he wrote some other great juveniles too.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggfs

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien@rand-unix.ARPA>
Date: 20 Jan 86 11:32:21 PST (Mon)
Subject: Marianne, the Magus, and the Mantichore

        It is encouraging to note that the wave of writers
influenced in their youth by J.R.R. Tolkien is still building.
Encouraging not because of the glut on the market of derivative
fantasy, but because their numbers have swollen to the point that
some few who are actually good writers are beginning to leave
derivation behind and to find their own voices.  H. P. Lovecraft
began by writing story cycles which were derivative of Dunsany, but
found a very distinctive voice of his own.

        Sheri S.  Tepper is such a writer.  Beginning with a series
of novels about the Land of the True Game, which could be viewed as
science fiction, she has moved in a different direction with her
latest work, "Marianne, the Magus, and the Mantichore".  This is a
true fantasy, but set in contemporary America, at an East Coast
college.  Marianne is supported in her studies by her snake of a
brother, who controls her inheritance until she is thirty (!) or
until she marries.  Marianne discovers that her family is related to
the Prime Minister of the tiny European country of Alphenlicht, when
Prime Minister Makr Avehl comes to the U. S. to speak and to play at
the diplomatic dance.  This setting is left behind in the second
part of the book, as Marianne involuntarily enters a series of
"shadow worlds", pursued by Makr Avehl as her would-be rescuer.

        One of the two most noteworthy items about this book is its
characters, which are, while not as fully-fleshed as in works by
Austen, Tolstoy or Solzhenitsyn, are nevertheless much more real
than one tends to find in contemporary fantastic literature.

        Secondly is the character of the shadow worlds.  These are
actually external representations of psychological nightmares.  It
has been a long, long time since a fantasy world managed to evoke
horror in me as well as wonder, and Tepper has done it.  On this
basis alone, I highly recommend this book.

        Finally, I'd like to note that many publishers have taken to
publishing short biographies of the writers at the rear of paperback
books as well as hardcovers.  I applaud this, because, having
personally met many writers, I like the feeling of reality and
connectedness that a biography gives.  Unfortunately, Ms. Tepper's
publisher is not so enlightened.  Therefore, an appeal: Does anyone
out there in netland have any biographical information about Sheri
S. Tepper?

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Desperately Seeking Certain Novel
Date: 19 Jan 86 19:21:00 GMT

Here's a very obscure request, for a book I read about a decade ago
- I found it in my local library - and have been unable to discover
since.

It's an historical novel concerning the conquering of the pagan
European tribes by the Roman legions.  The hero is the king of the
pagan tribes; his name is Caradoc.  The book follows the path of
Caradoc as he organizes the defense of the tribes and the old way of
life against the immense military might of the Romans.  It is very
long, descriptive, and quite beautiful.  I've been thinking about
this book, and looking for it in vain, for about 8 years now.

Obviously, I dont remember the author or title.  But Caradoc is
definitely the protagonist's name.

If anyone can give me an author or title for this I hereby vow to
turn over half my winnings when I win the New York State Lotto 48
game this week (pot is currently up over $40 million).

Thanks in advance to my rescuer,

michael krantz

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 20 Jan 1986 02:03:56-PST
From: cesani%mlncsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: book info req.

Years ago before Stasheff brought out his "warlock .. " series I
read a book strangely similar to the first of the series (warlock in
spite of himself).  It too was about terran intervention in a
medieval society and finding out that some other civilization had
the same idea.  Does anybody remember title and other pertinent
info?  Thanks.

Giorgio Cesani

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 20 Jan 1986 02:16:08-PST
From: cesani%mlncsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: last legionary quartet rewiew (negative)

I would have preferred by-passing this one.
Science is handled as the following two cases show:

        1)on an airless moon a baddie is distracted by the sound of
          the overhead passage of a starship
        2)a civilization with starships cannot find a planet in an
          "anomalous" orbit till it's seen in the night sky and is
          near enough to interfere gravitationally

plot is : a)hero captured
          b)villain explains his plans/secrets
          c)hero escapes normally the "deus ex machina way"
            usually against one or two hundred baddies
          d)hero foils the bad guys plan
          e)back to a. for another round

usual things thrown in
        hero is last of his race (last of the mohicans)
        bad guys are also bad looking
        good guys monitor how civilization is running (mentor of
         arisia)

My main worry is that there may be a follow up as the ending is open
for one and by the time I may have forgotten all about the first
volume by then.

The main reason for this flame is to suggest a place where to put
negative reviews of this type so it can be consulted before risking
on new authors.  I do not want to miss the new greats of the field
but I would prefer to have a filter somewhere to avoid the necessity
of being burned 9 times to find a good 10th author.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 86 09:14:10 PST (Monday)
Subject: Reviews?
From: cate3.EIS@xerox.com

     Has anyone read "Spinneret" by Timothy Zahn, or "True Voyaging"
by George R. R. Martin, the books?  Is there anything new in either
book, or are they just reprints of the stories that appeared in
Analog?

Thanks.
Henry III

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: More about description (or is this getting boring?)
Date: 18 Jan 86 21:02:44 GMT

>...When a woman is described in a screen play as "beautiful", you
>ask Casting for a lot of beautiful women and the author looks over
>all of them, until he finds the one who is "perfect".  But when you
>say "beautiful" in a book without any other description, the author
>has one picture in mind, the reader cannot help but form another
>picture, and communication is lost. The author loses control over
>his story. Instead of telling us stories about giants and armies
>marching across blood-stained fields or of gleaming spaceships
>racing across a starry sky, the storyteller is doing nothing except
>putting words on paper for money.

What intrigues me very much is the "screenplay" approach to novel
writing that has become very common these days. How many novels have
you read in recent years that screamed out at the world "Soon To Be
A Major Motion Picture"? The characters, even, are sometimes
described in screenplay terms, very broad brushstrokes, not fine
detail. This seems to be the case in modern art, versus classical,
too. It is not that I find it so hard to accept, for all that I
dislike it, but it is fascinating, the synergy that occurs between
print and visual media, and increasingly now, audio media. If I
thought that American television and film were assuming more of the
traits of print, I would feel better about it, but it seems to be a
one-way process (although the impact of the music video on film is
very obvious). However, I think of such fine British television
productions as "The Jewel In The Crown" from Scott's "Raj Quartet",
"Reilly: Ace Of Spies", "Bleak House" from Dickens. So there is much
encouragement, and even some bright spots in American television
(vis a vis this print-like quality), such as "Moonlighting", "Mickey
Spillane's Mike Hammer", "Murder She Wrote", and some other shows
(all mostly detective type, and mimicking that genre of writing).

I notice that there is very little control or restraint in American
fiction lately, or American science fiction. This isn't a value
judgement, as some uncontrolled fiction such as Thompson's and
Burroughs' is very good, and in some ways a welcome change.
Unfortunately, it's not a style that is suited to many writers -
i.e., most authors need to control their stories and characters, and
avoid this horrible tendency to let their characters get away from
them. I find this especially salient in the growing numbers of
series, in which an author, in essence, has allowed his audience and
the economic pressure generated by such an audience to dictate the
continuation of a series (something Doyle had to deal with, with
Holmes).  Readers in many cases of this type do not read for a given
author, as in many cases (such as the Edgar Rice Burroughs novels)
it is unimportant who writes it, as long as the characters and plots
remain familiar. They read for a "world", or a story, or for
characters that are sometimes more real to them than they are to the
person who came up with the characters in the first place. And
this may be because the audience has a more vivid imagination and
more concern for such characters than the author.  Which is a sad
comment on the state of authorship in America, that while you may be
destined to pumping gas, your character gains fame and fortune
(there might be a good series in that somewhere, eh?).

>Ideas are very easy.  Plots are almost as easy, too.  But true
>story writing, putting words on paper which describes to aching
>detail the action of the men in this world trying to achieve their
>goals; turning a "beautiful woman" into a five foot two, red haired
>beauty with soft green eyes, full lips, and a passion for abstract
>geometry; these acts take the talent of a professional.

I agree, but I doubt that many who read or write science fiction
would acknowledge such a basic necessity. Detail is not what they
want, or I imagine they would be reading and writing classics.
Ideas, shorn of ornamentation, are what science fiction has, rightly
or wrongly, built its foundation upon. Plots are often secondary,
and characterization runs a distant third, by and large. Some would
say that certain characters appeal to them immensely; and I do not
disagree that a Lazarus Long or Paul Atreides or Thomas Covenant is
appealing to many people. But this is not truly great
characterization, the art and craft of making imaginary people come
to life.  Lazarus Long is at best Robert Heinlein shorn of his
imperfections; a shame, because it would be nice to have such a
character, the real RAH, flaws and all. But his only real "flaw" is
boredom, hardly a flaw, especially in an immortal man. Thomas
Covenant, at least, started out very interestingly, but became
little more than a cipher for guilt, remorse, pained inaction, a
symbol of the religous man in a quandary of faith. He stopped
breathing after about a hundred pages, something I can't recall
seeing in a book in a long time - a character becoming less and less
interesting the more he is described. Atreides held the most
promise, but then he became a god and it's a little difficult to
construct a god with whom humans can empathize (unless they're
Napoleon or Hitler).

Science fiction generally presents archetypes, not characters.
Perhaps that is why so little attention is paid to detail, because
by definition, an archetype is understood by most people, even if
subconsciously. The Warrior, the King, the Queen, the Jester, the
Hero, the Coward, the Wizard... it seems that science fiction
characterization (and to a greater extent, also fantasy) is a
flipping-through of cards in a deck. For every complex, real, and
most importantly, *science fiction-esque* character like Bester's
Gully Foyle, there are thousands of Janissaries. Gene Wolfe's
Severian was much more than a torturer, much more complex and
strange and inscrutable than we have come to encounter in science
fiction in a long time. Science fiction has the tools to create
memorable characters, and to develop them in different ways than
mainstream fiction can. Lucius Shephard, Bruce Sterling, William
Gibson, K. W. Jeter and others are doing these things, basing their
stories on the *people* in them. Shephard's Frank January is one of
the best characters that has come alive in a short story in a long
time. I link his appeal to critics and readers with his paramount
ability to create characters that are real, flawed, and human.
Screwups, thieves, losers, men filled with hatred, women who claw
and children who kill - these are people, not some aphorism-spouting
pontiff such as Muad'Dib or Lazarus Long. I hope that writers of
this type do not get co-opted by the science fiction establishment
in the manner of the promising writers of the '70s such as George R.
R.  Martin and John Varley, conned into generating hackwork with
promises of greater pay, more convention appearances in front of
adoring fans, winning Nebulas and Hugos which, in the end, mean
nothing if the writing isn't any good by their own standards. It can
happen. I hope it doesn't.

Davis Tucker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 86 09:39 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: "Bladerunner"

Sorry, its not William S. Burroughs, its Alan Nourse.  Its my
understanding that the film makers bought the rights to the book
because they liked the title so much.  The book is late sixties,
early seventies vintage.

There is no resemblence between the book and the movie.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 86 10:20:22 PST (Monday)
Subject: "Bladerunner" query
From: Couse.osbunorth@xerox.com

In spite of the fact that "Bladerunner" was lifted from an unrelated
story, I always figured that the use could be justified if one
defined a bladerunner as someone who operated on the edge.  In this
vein, the workgroup I was with at the time the movie came out
started using the term to refer to people who had been given
difficult special assignments that had to be executed quickly.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jan 86 0834-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Correy & Dick &
                      Haldeman & Heinlein & Leiber &
                      McCaffrey (2 msgs) & 
                      The Flying Sorcerors &
                      An Old Request Answered,
              Miscellaneous - Descriptions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ukc!gcb1@caip.rutgers.edu (G.C.Blair)
Subject: Hitch-Hikers' Guide Fan Club
Date: 15 Jan 86 12:22:52 GMT

The demand for Hitch-Hiker's info has been so overwhelming I've
decided to post it to this newsgroup. Sorry about any delay, but I
suspect our mailer was inoperative over much of the Christmas
Ne'erday period. Happy Hitching!

HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY FAN-CLUB INFORMATION

The HHGttG fan-club is the source of many quaint, cute or otherwise
interesting memorabilia, souveneirs, etc., as well as fulfilling its
main role as a forum for discussion on HH. It produces a regular
"magazine" (the exact definition of "regular" is somewhat hazy too!)
and every member also gets a nice red badge which *really does*
attract interest at parties, etc. The badge has on it:

             *     *****
            **         *
           * *         *
          *  *     *****
         *******   *
             *     *
             *     *****


     D O N ' T        P A N I C

               Z Z 9


The fan-club is called ZZ9 Plural Alpha, which should be of some
significance (and great importance) to all Hikers, as it's the
co-ordinates of Earth in the Galactic Sky-Charts.

Some of the more interesting things being done by ZZ9 include the
compilation of a REAL HHGttG, which we eventually aim to have
packaged into something like the original as described by Doug. At
present, we have the technology (shades of the six-million dollar
man....?), but are lacking in entries. Any ideas can be mailed to
the address below.

Probably THE most mega-hyper-important thing done thus far is the
production of THE TOWEL. Not just any towel, THE TOWEL. It's sort of
big (at 64" X 30") and has lots of writing on it. The object of the
writing is that, when someone asks you why you're carrying a towel,
you don't have to go to all the hassle of explaining it, but just
hold up your towel and let he/she/it read it for his/her/it- self!
Also available are sundries such as Lazlar Lyricon T-shirts,
stickers in various sizes with catchy little phrases like "Be like
the 22nd elephant with heated value in space - Bark!"

Anyway, enough from me: the address to write to for more info is:

Sirius Marketing Division,
203, Coombfield Drive,
Darenth,
Dartford,
Kent DA2 7LF,
United Kingdom.

PS Recently published are the original Radio Series scripts, with
annotations by Doug and the director.  For those who never heard the
original series, it's a must. For those who did hear it, then read
the books, they'll have forgotten just how good the radio shows
were! The book contains lots of extra info like how sound-effects
were created, how plots were thought up and how characters were
named, etc. My copy is signed "Don't Panic!!! Douglas Adams". So
there!

Grant C Blair
Reply address:  {seismo,....}!mcvax!ukc!gcb1
(I am physically located in Canterbury, Kent, England.)

------------------------------

From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh)
Subject: Re: Hitch-Hikers' Guide Fan Club
Date: 21 Jan 86 18:34:57 GMT

gcb1@ukc.UUCP (G.C.Blair) writes:
>The fan-club is called ZZ9 Plural Alpha, which should be of some
>significance (and great importance) to all Hikers, as it's the
>co-ordinates of Earth in the Galactic Sky-Charts.

        I am sure that I can hear Trillian saying:
        "Zed Zed Nine Plural Zed Alpha"
                         ^^^
        not:
        "Zed Zed Nine Plural Alpha"

as a matter of fact this way it doesn't say easily at all (try it).

Perhaps this extra "Zed" is in the US distribution.  As a matter of
fact there apear to be quite a few (minor) differences from the
scripts, ones that aren't mentioned in the notes.  I can't confirm by
scripts right now but as soon as I get home ... But I'm really sure,
I have tapes of the broadcasts which I have fairly well memorized.

Dont Panic
dave schuh
!uwvax!geowhiz!schuh

------------------------------

From: cisden!lmc@caip.rutgers.edu (Lyle McElhaney)
Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH
Date: 20 Jan 86 03:55:20 GMT

> Richardson, R. S.       SHUTTLE DOWN
>     (writing as "Lee      Reprint 1981 paperback. Richardson's
>                           other, and perhaps better known,
>     Correy")              pseudonym is G. Harry Stine, which he
>                           uses for scientific articles.

Unless I am very much mistaken, G. Harry Stine is the man's real
name; it is by that name that some friends of mine knew him long
before he became a writer.  Lee Correy is a pseudonym, and Reed
Richardson is the name of one of the main characters in SHUTTLE
DOWN.

An excellent book, by the way, that I have been trying to find ever
since some dastard stole mine from my vault.  Some hype has been
added to the cover, stating that the problems involved in shuttle
recovery on polar orbits out of Vandenburg were first explored in
this book (copyright 1981) before the US negotiated a treaty with
Chile for use of Easter Island as an emergency landing point (1985),
and that may be true.  An excellent story with lots of technical
detail.

Lyle McElhaney
...hao!cisden!lmc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 86 15:23:44 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Burroughs and Bladerunner (and back to Dick again)

>From: INGRIA%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU
>...  For example, given the general film noire/hard boiled
>detective feel of the movie, I can understand why they might not
>want to use the original title, @i(Do Androids Dream of Electric
>Sheep?), since it is a humorous title, at odds with the character
>of the film. ...

Urk.  Humorous?!  If you've read the novel you should realize that
the title is not the least bit flippant -- in fact it perfectly
captures the central theme of the novel, although you may not notice
this without some reflection.  My opinion is that the reason why
Scott needed a title other than DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?
is that the novel and the movie give different answers to the
question it asks!

A movie that was more than marginally based on the original DREAM
would be quite a contrast to BLADERUNNER and just as (or more)
interesting.

Anyone interested in producing UBIK: THE SCREENPLAY?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Subject: The Forever War
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 86 10:14:53 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>

        I don't think that Paul Winalski is more than partially
right about the gay society in The Forever War.  I'm almost sure
that the society resulted [at least in part] due to government
encouragement to promote population control.

        ** Mild spoiler Warning **

        Only a small part of The Forever War deals with the soldiers
returning to earth.  Their disgust with the "brave new world" as
well as government manipulation (they were kept from getting [the
scarce] jobs) prompted them to reenlist.  Originally, Haldeman
included a longer section involving the soldiers on Earth.  This was
removed because it slowed the book down.  On its own it is very
good.  It has been included in Haldeman's new collection - Dealing
in Futures.  The title is something like "You Can Never Go Back".

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 1986 (Tuesday) 1417-EDT
From: Christopher Shull <SHULL@wharton-10.ARPA>
Subject: _Job, a Comedy of Justice_ by Heinlein

In reporting that he gave Heinlein a second chance, Robert R.
Stegmann states that he received a recommendation against several of
Heinlein's books, including _Job, a Comedy of Justice_.

I greatly enjoyed reading _Job_, and have recommended it to a number
of friends since.  From my experience, I have determined that
because _Job_ is a spoof on religion(s), two types of people will
not like or appreciate it.  The first group includes people who, in
my mind, take their Religion and/or Faith much too seriously, and
are not accustomed to Doubting.  _Job_ makes one Doubt (yes, with a
capital D).

The second group includes people who simply have little or no
knowledge of religions or faith, and therefore lack the background
required to appreciate the Questions and the humor.

People with knowledge of religion (more knowledge about more
religions is more useful) and are comfortable with some probing,
unanswerable questions for their Faith should enjoy this book.  My
friends included a thinking and still agnostic uncle, my Catholic
wife, two priests, and a nun.  The uncle roared with laughter from
beginning to end.  My wife had a rough time praying for about two
weeks.  The priests loved it, but admitted that they wouldn't
recommended it to many of their flock.  The nun hated it, because
she couldn't stand the questioning.

If you liked the moral / religious questions Heinlein presented in
_Stranger in a Strange Land_, this is much more direct and sweeping
in its approach.

Enjoy!
Christopher Shull
Shull@Wharton.ARPA
Decision Sciences Department
The Wharton School
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA  19104-6366

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 10:01:10 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@bbncci.ARPA>
Subject: Father-son writers
Cc: wmartin@almsa-1.arpa

In SFL V10 #367, Will Martin asks about parent-child pairs of
writers, and mentions Fritz Leiber the writer and his father Fritz
Leiber the actor.  Fritz Leiber's son, Justin Leiber, is also an SF
author, and based on the one book of his that I've read, he shows a
lot of promise.  I don't remember the name of the book -- it was a
selection of the SF Book Club, and it was (hazily remembered) about
a guy who gets killed or almost killed, gets his brain and/or his
consciousness put in a new body which happens to be female and have
a tail, and his subsequent adventures.

Morris M. Keesan
{decvax,ihnp4,etc.}!bbncca!keesan
keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA

------------------------------

From: pluto!warren@caip.rutgers.edu (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 20 Jan 86 00:35:31 GMT

> Hmmm... I'll have to read [the Dragon Riders of Pern] books again.
> I didn't at all catch the implication that when dragons mated, the
> 'riders did also.  Was I exceedingly obtuse both times I read the
> books, or did others also not make this connection/assumption?
>  Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

There doesn't seem to be any mention of the sexual habits of green
and blue riders in either of the trilogies, but there is a gay
couple in Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern - blue Rogeth's K'lon and green
Granth's A'murry.  Sh'gall, the Fort Weyrleader disproves: "Fully
male and hold-bred, Sh'gall had never developed any compassion or
understanding of the green and blue riders and their associations.
(p71)

I don't know if all green riders were homosexual or bisexual.  Maybe
there was some way to keep a green dragon from going into heat.  I
imagine any brown or blue rider who wanted to avoid the problem
could manage to keep his dragon on the ground or out of town when a
green flew.

What I find more interesting is in Dragondrums where Menolly and
Sebell find themselves caught up in their fire lizards's mating.
They were among the first to have fire lizards so theirs may have
been the first to mature.  I guess Pern was never the same.

I don't know if Anne McCaffrey really considered all this when she
created Pern.  If anyone has heard any comments of hers on this
topic, I'd like to hear them.

While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the
fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger
(p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with
Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost
@i(between)?

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 21 Jan 86 07:36:33 GMT

warren@pluto.UUCP writes:
>What I find more interesting is in Dragondrums where Menolly and
>Sebell find themselves caught up in their fire lizards's mating.
>They were among the first to have fire lizards so theirs may have
>been the first to mature.  I guess Pern was never the same.

When I read that, I was wondering what would've happened it Sebell
was with Masterharper Robinton when his queen went into heat.  After
all, the Masterharper impressed a bronze who would've responded to
Sebell's queen in the same fashion that Menolly's had to.

>While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the
>fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger
>(p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with
>Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost
>@i(between)?

Yeah, I've thought about that one also.  I can think of two
explanations.  The first is literary license on the part of the
harper composing the ballad since it's more exciting and easier to
explain the way that it is sung, instead of the way that it actually
happened.  The other explanation is loss of information over time.
Lots of things got lost, such as the verifiable existence of
firelizards, accepted in Moreta's time, but relegated to children's
fairy tales by Lessa'a.

Historical ambiguity would also explain the fact that in Lessa's
time, it is believed that Moreta could talk to all dragons (see
about 3/4 thru Dragonriders for F'lar's comment to Lessa) whereas
M,DLoP has Moreta only talking to Leri's Holth, as well as her own
Orlith.

When do you think the next Dragonriders book should be coming out?
M,DLoP is (c) as long ago as 1983, and she obviously wrote The White
Dragon with the intention of making a sequel in which they explore
the terran artifacts, i.e. the space ships and the Dawn Stars.

Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept.
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel@Maryland (Arpanet)

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@caip.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Gods in The Flying Sorcerors
Date: 20 Jan 86 06:01:00 GMT

Forry (not Forrey) Ackerman wears a little green star as a sign that
he's an Esperantist.  I don't know why he'd been associated with a
triangle.

Has anyone mentioned Harlan's appearance in FLYING SORCERERS yet as
the little god with the big voice?

Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Oct 85  9:41:19 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@bbncci.ARPA>
Subject: The Man who was a Jazz Band
To: Lindsay@tl-20b.arpa

My associative memory says that this story is called "Double,
Double", and that it was in one of the Judith Merill "Best of 19.."
anthologies, [among other places].  I remember the book being a
relatively thick paperback with a black (possibly slightly
star-speckled) cover, and probably number 5 or 6 in Merrill's "Best"
series.  I think this would date it some time in the middle or late
1960s.  My memory refuses to come up with an author for this one.

------------------------------

From: valid!pete@caip.rutgers.edu (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: on writing
Date: 22 Jan 86 04:33:43 GMT

> From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
> As he trudged through the mud in the moonlight, the Corvette
> roared after him, gleaming like a fire engine.
>
> Note that unless you count "fire engine" as an adjective followed
> by a noun, rather than a compound word, there are no adjectives in
> the second example.

Sorry, but "gleaming like a fire engine" is an adjective phrase
modifying "Corvette", and "the" and "a", although commonly refered
to as "articles" (sp?)  are in fact adjectives also.  Otherwise you
make a very good point.

Pete Zakel (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!pete)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jan 86 0916-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jan 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:

               Books - Auel & Burroughs & Haldeman &
                       Hughes & McCaffrey (3 msgs) &
                       Zelazny & Footfall & 
                       Recommendations Request,
               Miscellaneous - Descriptions (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 08:49:52 PST
From: Dennis Cottel <dennis%cod@nosc.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Earth Children Series

I've enjoyed the Earth Children Series (by Jean M. Auel) but not
without disappointment.  My problems with the books parallel Stephen
Perelgut's:

1. Mysticism.  After establishing an amazing feel for what life
might very well have been like 30,000 years ago, Ms. Auel suddenly
gives us a spiritual leader who can remember his entire evolutionary
tree-branch, read minds, send his thoughts, and glimpse the future.
What a jolt.  This was absolutely unnecessary to the story.  In the
first book, this is relatively easy to ignore; it becomes a little
more heavy-handed in the third.  Pretend this stuff isn't there--as
her editor should have.

2. Sex.  There are times where the sexual relationships of these
characters are very important to the story.  At too many other
times, however, the narrative comes to a dead stop while we skip
over paragraphs of "moist mounds" and "engorged manhood."  Gak!  The
phrase "lurid prose" was coined for this stuff.  Somewhat harder to
ignore.

3. Coincidence: Ayla has a remarkable predilection for discovery,
whether by chance or intention.  As Stephen mentioned, she has
invented stitching wounds, the flint and steel fire lighter, a spear
thrower, and the sewing needle.  She perfected the double-stone
sling throw (anybody know if this can really be done?), was the
first to use a horse for carrying loads, invented the travois, and
was the first to ride a horse.  Ah, yes, and created the
domesticated dog.  She is also the only person on the planet who
knows where babies come from.  Each discovery is described in ways
that make fascinating reading, and may be taken as archetypical of
the way it might have happened.  Still, as the incidents add up,
they begin to tug at your "suspension of disbelief."

When Ms. Auel is treating the people and how they live and survive,
she is masterful.  But each book is longer than its predecessor.  If
the latter two had been edited to the length of the first, they
might have been as good.  How frustrating it is to see how much
better they could have been had she stayed with what she does best
and left the other parts to Steven King and Barbara Cartland.  I
hope that somehow she gets the message; the next installment could
be as good as the first.

In spite of these problems, I have found the books enjoyable, and
will read the next.  But if Ayla invents the wheel, I'm gonna quit!

Dennis Cottel  Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 225-2406     dennis@nosc.ARPA      sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: "Bladerunner" query
Date: 20 Jan 86 22:29:28 GMT

lars@cartan.UUCP (Lars Andersson) writes:
>I don't recall any reference to the word in "Do Androids...", but
>there definitely is a novel called "Bladerunner" by William S.
>Burroughs (that great neglected S.F.-writer) that came out before
>the movie.

Bill Burroughs a 'neglected SF-writer?' I don't see how a seminal
author like Burroughs can be described as 'neglected.' Although he's
had his share of bad press and hard criticism, he's been a major and
influential figure in the arts for many years.

As I recall, 'bladerunners' are mentioned in one of his novels
(perhaps Nova Express?) but I don't think he's written a novel
explicitly titled 'Bladerunner.'

Is Burroughs an SF-writer? Certainly SF techniques and themes are
prominent in his work. But I think most of his work could be
classified as fantasy with equal justification, or even surrealism.
Is the fantastic history underlying 'Cities of the Red Night'
intended to represent a POSSIBLE history at all? I don't think so. I
think Burroughs uses the devices of SF for his own purposes, but I
think his intent is quite different: he's totally uninterested in
plausibility or prediction, for one thing.

                      Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 Jan 86 22:01:54-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #19

> As I recall the story, the predominately gay society in THE
> FOREVER WAR did not result because of government encouragement to
> promote population control.  Rather, it evolved from the use of
> artificial insemination and artificial wombs for procreation.
> Pregnancy being undesireable in such a society, homosexual
> activity was preferred since it didn't require bothering with
> contraceptives.  Gay sex became so prevalent that eventually
> heterosexuality was regarded as perverted.

[SPOILER!]

Wrong.  A very major theme of the _The_Forever_War_ was governmental
meddling in all kinds of [currently] private affairs.  Universal
homosexuality is one example, and it was a government plan of
contraception.  It (gov. control) is a theme of the book: e.g., the
hate-conditioning of the soldiers in the first battle; more subtle
conditioning of the entire population later on on Earth; the
coercion and trickery that the UNEF used to get the ex-soldiers back
into the war.  For that matter, the forever war itself was revealed
as such a thing.

I believe that Haldeman was in Viet Nam, or closely connected with
it (or possibly some other war).

w_Blessings,
   Bard

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE PROPHET OF LAMATH by Robert Don Hughes (mild spoiler)
Date: 20 Jan 86 17:06:22 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "Beware the dragon! The dragon was divided! Its two heads, Vicia
  and Heinox, were fighting for control of its massive body. For
  centuries, it had sat quietly at Dragonsgate, content with its
  tribute of slaves for food. Now it took to the air, burning
  villages at random throughout the Three Lands to vent its rage and
  confusion. With Dragonsgate open for the passage of armies, war
  and chaos beset all the lands.

  It was all the fault of Pelmen the player, who had confused the
  heads to gain escape for himself and the Princess Bronwynn. Pelmen
  the player, Pelmen the powershaper -- now Pelmen the Prophet of
  the Power! And only Pelmen could end the evils that threatened to
  destroy everything.

  But Pelmen was helpless, locked in the King's dungeon, waiting to
  be executed on the drawing blocks. Should he escape, the prophecy
  of the Priestess foretold an even more terrifying fate at the
  mouths of the dragon!"

The jacket is accurate enough, but most of what it describes occurs
at the end of the book. There are a lot of characters in the story,
and the author does a decent enough job with each to make them seem
real to the reader.

The world is one of fantasy, but each Land has its own interesting
attributes: in one, magical powers are evident; in another, prophecy
and religious blessings often work.

Characters from each of the Three Lands are represented, and there
are numerous subplots going on at the same time as the main plot.
With a less talented writer the result would be a total mess, but
Mr. Hughes carries it off (though I must admit that I had to pause
occasionally to recall with whom the current character was allied).

The story is perfectly paced, and it is an excellent blend of
adventure, character studies, philosophy, sociology, and intrigue. I
give this book my highest rating, 4.0 stars. And by the way, there
are two others featuring Pelmen: THE WIZARD IN WAITING and THE POWER
AND THE PROPHET.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: pluto!warren@caip.rutgers.edu (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff  (Dragonriders)
Date: 21 Jan 86 05:21:27 GMT

(Frederick M. Avolio) writes:
> ... since "Greens are rendered sterile through a sex-linked
> disability triggered by chronic use of firestone," (which is why
> Queens never chew firestone) might it not affect them further?

In "Dragonquest", F'nor is stabbed by T'reb, a green rider whose
dragon is about to mate.  p15-18

In "The White Dragon", Mirrim's Path has been proddy for some time.
p197
       Menolly made an exasperated sound.  "If Path doesn't fly
         soon, Mirrim, you're not going to be on terms with anyone!"
       Surprised, Jaxom looked at Mirrim, who was flushing deeply
         red.
       "Oh ho, Path's ready to be flown!  That'll sort out some of
         your high-headed notions!"  He couldn't resist crowing at
         her dismay.  "Has Path shown a preference?  Ha!  Look at
         her blush!  Never thought I'd see the day when you'd lose
         the loss of your tongue.  And you'll be losing something
         more soon...."

And we think teenagers on Earth have trouble with sex.

------------------------------

From: valid!pete@caip.rutgers.edu (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Moreta fact vs. legend
Date: 22 Jan 86 04:58:15 GMT

> While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the
> fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger
> (p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with
> Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost
> @i(between)?

I assumed Anne was being realistic in that legends almost never have
all the facts straight.

Pete Zakel (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!pete)

------------------------------

From: wucec2!jdz@caip.rutgers.edu (Jason D. Zions)
Subject: Dragons of Pern: Dragon/Rider relations
Date: 20 Jan 86 03:11:06 GMT

I don't McCaffrey is all that subtle about it. During the Search for
Lessa, McCaffrey indicates pretty clearly that "proddy" dragons
(i.e. in heat) project strongly on their riders, who become
irritable, etc. Horny.

Then we have the first mating flight of Ramoth; Lessa is surrounded
by all the bronze riders, and as several bronzes drop out of the
flight, the shrinking group "stumbles" towards the queen rider's
room. As Ramoth is caught by Mnementh, we are almost told straight
out that F'lar/Lessa and Menmenth/Ramoth mate together.

When Jaxom and Ruth are training on the Weyr grounds and one of the
green dragons goes off on a mating flight, Jaxom is caught up in the
projected waves of desire (even though Ruth doesn't really care).

There are other references, some of which appear in the Harper Hall
trilogy.  It wasn't until the second or third time through the
series that I picked up on the inherent bi-sexuality of dragon
riders. Even bronzes get stuck with greens; not enough queens to go
around.

I think a small amount of mirth is aroused because of all of this
when Mirrim impressed Path; after all, women weren't supposed to
ride anything but queens...

Anyway, this is all I can remember off the top of my head; I have
vague recollections of McCaffrey getting somewhat more explicit
somewhere...

Jason D. Zions                          jdz@wucec2
Center for Engineering Computing        ...ihnp4!wucs!wucec2!jdz
Washington University in St. Louis

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 86 09:51:25 EST (Wednesday)
From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations

Well, I'm not so sure 'Unicorn Variations' isn't available in the
US, nor that it's so new - I bought a used copy of the Science
Fiction Book Club edition at a rummage sale in the summer of '84 (at
least I think that's where I got it).  I think you've been misled by
the bookstore.

It is an interesting book, with some nice stories.  The title story
was plagiarized by a schoolboy who won a writing contest with it -
there was some scandal when the theft was discovered.

Chris Heiny

------------------------------

From: hamachi@KIM (Gordon Hamachi)
Subject: Footfall--What Happened to Robert Anson?
Date: 21 Jan 86 21:44:27 GMT

What happened to the character named Robert Anson?  Very near the
end of the book some of other the characters remark that they wish
that he was there to help make an important decision.  Where did he
go?

------------------------------

From: ttidcb!jackson@caip.rutgers.edu (Dick Jackson)
Subject: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 20 Jan 86 21:42:49 GMT

I have hesitated to ask this because if my request is taken
seriously by only a few I may get deluged, but - here goes:

I have dabbled in sf for a considerable time but am no super-fan. I
am, however, responsible for my 15 year old son's education and have
been feeding him the classics, as known to me, in paperback. By "the
classics" I have in mind those works which have been tested by time
and which should form the basis for continued reading. For example,
in mainstream literature the classics might be Shakespeare, Milton,
Dickens, etc.

So far I have covered Niven's known space and started on Foundation.
There have been a couple of hard core Heinleins (inc. SST). Oh, yes,
he's read Dune. Just recently we were given the first three of
Farmer's World of Tiers - new to me - a classic?

My question is: What else qualifies? I guess I am not looking for
just authors names, but key works from important authors. More
Heinlein? which?  Doc Smith? really? Arthur Clarke? Which? Who else?

I of course don't expect to get anything out of your replies, I am
only asking on behalf of my little boy. :-)

Thank you folks, Dick Jackson.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 86 20:42:34 PST
From: woody%Juliet@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu
Subject: Re: Descriptions in Books

   Gee, with all the flames flying about adverbs and adjectives, I
seem to remember that the discussion started over the use of
description--books which describe to us what a person looks like
verses books which assume we can tell all about the person by what
he or she does.  As if your personal philosophy tells anything about
the color of your hair!  Personally, I'd love to know what color
someone's hair was, but I wouldn't like it if the author wrote two
paragraphs outlining exactly *how* red it was; that's simply a waste
of paper.
   As for writing style, overkill on adjectives is definitely not
the way to go; I'm sure we all can agree upon that.  But then, there
are many things I'm sure we all can agree upon.
   So assuming everyone agrees upon the contents of the 85 page *The
Elements of Style* by Strunk and White, what is everyone's reaction
to description of people and objects in books?  Should it be
'beautiful woman' or 'blond headed bombshell in a skimpy bikini?'
Which would you rather have?

William Woody
NETWORK: WOODY@ROMEO
US MAIL: 1-54 Lloyd, Caltech
         Pasadena, CA 91126

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Descriptions in Books
Date: 22 Jan 86 21:59:42 GMT

woody%Juliet@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu writes:
>Should it be 'beautiful woman' or 'blond headed bombshell in a
>skimpy bikini?'  Which would you rather have?

   That's easy.  "Beautiful woman" is much more descriptive to me
because I see something other than a blond in a bikini.  Unless it's
*absolutely essential* to the story to have that woman be blond and
bikini-clad, I'd rather she be as *I* picture her.
   As for the "novel as movie script" idea, I would think that the
*more* description there is, the easier it could be made into a
movie.  After all, the thing a vast number of people complain about
after seeing a movie based on a popular book ("The Hobbit" and "The
Lord of the Rings" come to mind) is that the movie portrayed
characters and scenery differently than they had envisioned them
("*That's* not what Bilbo looks like...").

Joel P.
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 86 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Correy & Haldeman &
                       Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hussey & McCaffrey &
                       Zelazny & Quakers in SF,
               Television - Dr. Who,
               Miscellaneous - Character Expansion &
                       Descriptions (2 msgs) & Bladerunner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz)
Subject: YAXB (Yet Another Xanth Book)
Date: 22 Jan 86 21:09:05 GMT

The quality of Xanth books has steadily been declining.  Anthony
gives partial credit to his fans and his new word processor for this
one, and I have to say that it shows those two as faults.

"Golem In The Gears" has a few humorous points, but the majority of
attempts hit with all the subtlety of "that's supposed to be a
joke."  The story line is contorted to fit the procrustean bed of
contributed ideas.  Past characters waltz in and out to spare the
effort of plotting something original or clever.  Characters
spontaneously have great abstract insights required to escape
life-or-death situations.

Fans of the series will recognize the familiar elements: passive,
pretty women with pollyanna attitudes who latch inseparably onto
insecure males; Gilbert-and-Sullivan-esque fullfilment of duty and
obligation with marriage (or at least pairing) at the end; and the
general morality play atmosphere.

Anthony threatens further sequels; also further Blue Adept books.
Unless he spends more time crafting his stories, I'm going to give
up on them.  And since he now can produce them faster with his
processor, I don't think it will happen.

Mike Huybensz
...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

------------------------------

From: hplabs!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt)
Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH
Date: 24 Jan 86 01:30:29 GMT

>> Richardson, R. S.       SHUTTLE DOWN
>>     (writing as "Lee      Reprint 1981 paperback. Richardson's
>>                           other, and perhaps better known,
>>     Correy")              pseudonym is G. Harry Stine, which he
>                            uses for scientific articles.
>
> Unless I am very much mistaken, G. Harry Stine is the man's real
> name; it is by that name that some friends of mine knew him long
> before he became a writer.  Lee Correy is a pseudonym, and Reed
> Richardson is the name of one of the main characters in SHUTTLE
> DOWN.

 The crew at the OCOH admit that they goofed.  R.S. Richardson is
somebody else.  G. Harry Stine is real, and writes as Lee Correy.

....!hplabs!faunt       faunt@hplabs.ARPA    415-655-8604

------------------------------

Subject: Haldeman in Vietman
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 86 12:01:25 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>

Yes, Joe Haldeman served (and was wounded) in Vietnam.  If you go
through all his books he probably mentions it somewhere.  He wrote a
short mainstream novel called WAR YEAR that is at least somewhat
autobiographical (not completely!!).

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: _Job, a Comedy of Justice_ by Heinle
Date: 23 Jan 86 16:37:00 GMT

> From my experience, I have determined that because _Job_ is a
> spoof on religion(s), two types of people will not like or
> appreciate it.  The first group includes people who, in my mind,
> take their Religion and/or Faith much too seriously, and are not
> accustomed to Doubting.  _Job_ makes one Doubt (yes, with a
> capital D).
>
> The second group includes people who simply have little or no
> knowledge of religions or faith, and therefore lack the background
> required to appreciate the Questions and the humor.

To dissent, I fall into neither group, and I did not care for JOB,
though I found it immeasurably better than RAH tripe like Friday,
etc., etc.  It's a slapdash work with the suffocating RAH preaching
attenuated only slightly.

**** Pause for injection of personal philosophy

In a nutshell, my own belief is that Faith is necessary; yet Faith
unilluminated by knowledge, questioning, and the intellect is mere
superstition.  Faith must follow where knowledge leads.

**** End pause

As a result, I don't like being *preached to* by anyone, RAH
included, when he writes *ex cathedra*, telling us how things
*really* are.  From an esthetic standpoint, I don't generally enjoy
stories where the writer can pull anything he wants to, either *ex
machina* or *ex deus*.  To a novel written with such a premise,
Phooey!

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780B

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 1986 07:25:18-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re: _Job, A Comedy of Justice_

Christopher Shull <SHULL@wharton-10.ARPA> writes
> ...  From my experience, I have determined that because _Job_ is a
> spoof on religion(s), two types of people will not like or
> appreciate it.  The first group includes people who, in my mind,
> take their Religion and/or Faith much too seriously, and are not
> accustomed to Doubting.
>
> The second group includes people who simply have little or no
> knowledge of religions or faith, and therefore lack the background
> required to appreciate the Questions and the humor.

I disagree.  Personally, I liked the much of the religious satire
presented in _Job_, much for the same reasons that Mr. Shull praises
it.  However, the plot more than occasionally meanders, and (as
others on the net have complained) much of the conversation in
Heinlein's books is too pat and too cute.  On the whole, I found
_Job_ to be merely average Heinlein, despite some delicious pokes at
fundamentalist or dogmatic religious beliefs.

By the way, I am an agnostic who is reasonably familiar with
religion and faith.  (My grandfather is a lay preacher who loves to
discuss religious issues from an open-minded point of view...)

Brian Clapper
clapper@NADC.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Kudos to Leigh Ann Hussey
Date: 22 Jan 86 21:13:00 GMT

THE LOVER OF LORD EITHRAS, by Leigh Ann Hussey of our very own
SF-Lovers, is in the March, 1986, issue of FANTASY BOOK, and is the
cover story of the issue no less. <Stand up and take a bow, Leigh
Ann.>

As sword-fantasy goes, I think it's pretty good, though I sensed
some parts were hurried through to get it down to FB length.  It
does make this reader eager to see the novel-in-progress when it
comes out.

Jim Brunet
...ihnp4/ima/ism780B

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless @ Imperial
From: Propoganda)
Subject: Re: McCaffrey's Pern series
Date: 24 Jan 86 05:09:42 GMT

> To me, part of the interest in the society as it progressed
> throughout the series was their rediscovery of technology.  Once
> they found the ship, it seems all downhill from there.  I would
> just as soon *not* see any post-WHITE DRAGON novels.

I beg to differ.  While being stuck rediscovering the electric light
bulb would be as boring as the rediscovery of the telegraph was,
that would not be the only thing a third trilogy could cover.

Consider the following unresolved issues:

Who takes over when F'lar, who we left around age 60, finally
retires.  What is the process?  Imagine the mighty struggle, between
the proud F'lessan and the courageous and determined K'van.  Imagine
the revelation of new Dragonlore.

Which Weyr will be the leader, Benden, home of the (eventually) late
F'lar, or Fort, site of leadership for centuries.

What do the Lord Holders do when the thread fall stops, especially
as the grubs have been seeded over the North to protect during the
next Fall.  Speaking of which, what happened to whatzisface, that
Weyerling who got kicked out of Benden for fighting?

What territorial conflicts will develop over the Southern continent,
especially when the thread fall stops.

What caused the first men to flee the south?  A single volcano?
That seems odd.  Why not just move to some place on the same
continent that has fewer volcanos?  If they were so bright, why did
they build on an active volcano to begin with?  Maybe there is
something in those ships that set off the volcanos, something we are
better off not finding.

Who will take over as Master Harper?  Menolly?  It would break
tradition, but she seemes the most worthy musically.  Sebell?  No
where near as good a musician or a composer.  How does Menolly feel
about this?

Answers to these and other important human questions will be
answered by somebody with enough imagination.

{dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations
Date: 21 Jan 86 21:29:00 GMT

Err, I'm not sure how to break this to you, but UNICORN VARIATIONS
has been out for some time now, in hardback.  The Science Fiction
Book Club has it, and it was published as a "regular" hardback as
well.  I think it earned an award for the year it came out as the
best single-author anthology.

The British Sphere Press edition has a nice cover, though.

In addition to a very nice selection of stories, there are several
blurbs and an essay by Zelazny on writing which I found fascinating,
but then I'm a fan of RZ's better stuff.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780b

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Jan 86 10:22:38-PST
From: Diana <Egly%HP-HULK@HPLABS>
Subject: Post-Holocaust Books

Another post-WW3 book that hasn't been mentioned is _Still Forms on
Firefox_ by Joan Slonczewski.  The book is about a group of Friends
(Quakers) who escape WW3 and colonize a planet which is
re-discovered many years later by United Nations International (UNI)
the government which has developed in their absence.  UNI has
managed to absorb every population with which they have come into
contact.  Since the Friends wish to retain their unique identity,
UNI and the inhabitants of Firefox come into conflict.  The theme of
this book deals with apparent conflict between science and faith,
with neither depicted as evil or wrong.

Also, I'm interested in other science fiction books in which
Quakerism plays a role.  A description of the book (including
spoilers) would help; information about the role(s) that the
Friend(s) takes would be most helpful before I hunt down the books.
In case you wonder what this is all about, I am looking for books to
add to a Meeting library that would be of interest to young Friends
and science fiction is a popular category.  Since Friendly science
fiction is as unusual a catagory as you are likely to see on
SF-Lovers, I'd recommend that you send replies directly to me at
Egly@hplabs.arpa

Thanks,
Diana

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Jan 86 04:09:36-PST
From: Alan Greig <G.GREIG@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: What really happened to Dr. Who

The BBC finally begin filming a new series of Dr. Who in March and
Michael Grade, the Controller of BBC1 televsion, has come clean on
why the series was 'rested'. In recent interviews he has stated that
in his opinion, the programme had become too violent for screening
at peek viewing time and that the plots had become boring and
repetitive.  Had it not been for viewer reaction he might well have
cancelled the series for good. However (and shades of Star Trek
here) its not all good news and when the new series returns it will
be 'on trial' and judged purely by the amazing Mr. Grade. This seems
bad news as normally he likes his programs to be filled with sex,
have the charcaters talk of how they cured their heroin addiction
and have at least 7 guest appearances of Terry Wogan in each
episode. Unhappily, this gets audiences and, in an about turn, these
are now all important to the BBC.  Still, he won't have it entirely
his own way if he tries to cancel.  BBC radio 4 showed that when
they jumped in to produce a mini series for radio during its
enforced tv abscence. They'd jump at the chance to do the whole
thing should BBC1 drop it. BBC2 also rescued Star Trek when one of
Grade's first decsiions on being appointed Controller was to cancel
the Star Trek reruns so at least some people in the BBC still know a
good thing when they see one.

BTW, if anyone out there heard the radio series, could they submit a
review. I only caught the last episode by accident as I didnt
realise it was being transmitted at the time.

Alan Greig
Arpa: Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA
or      Alan%DCT@CS.UCL.AC.UK
Janet:Alan%DCT@DUNDEE

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 16:10:27 EST
From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) <DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Character Expansion

Howdy-do!  I recently went on a binge of re-reading.  I went back
and re-read most of the series in my library.  I noticed one thing,
as the series progressed, the characters got more and more powerful.
Take the Thieves World series as an example, by the end of the 5th
book, everyone was a god.  Can someone recommend a series in which
the character stays more or less constant in abilities throughout?
Lord of the Rings is pretty close to what I want.  Frodo and Sam
stayed the same pretty much througout the whole book, though I'll
grant you, it's only one adventure.

Is it possible to keep your characters from getting too large?  I
find that by the end of the series, the characters are just too
powerful to be believed, so I end up being dissapointed.

Please suggest something,

Joe
DZOEY@UMD2.EDU
HERMAN@UMDD.BITNET

P.S. on the other hand, maybe it's just the type of series I read
     (mostly Romantic SF / Fantasy)

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Absolute Rules
Date: 23 Jan 86 19:28:00 GMT

While on the subject of rules for writing, i.e., description, there
comes to mind a tale of a writing workshop that, if it isn't true, it
should be.

Pompous but enthusiastic instructor in front of class.

"Fiction depends on character.  Your characters must live.  They
must begin to breathe in the very first paragraph, and if they are
not fully alive at the end of the page... your fiction is a
failure."

Brief pause, and from the back of the room a sepulchral voice
intoned, "Marley was dead, to begin with." (Charles Dickens, A
CHRISTMAS CAROL)

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780B

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 23 Jan 1986 14:52:27-PST
From: vickrey%coors.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (LAN_Mistress)
Subject: Current debate on descriptive narrative

>. . . but I doubt that many who read or write science fiction would
>acknowledge such a basic necessity. Detail is not what they want,
>or I imagine they would be reading and writing classics.  Davis
>Tucker

Oh?  What about "Pride and Prejudice", by Jane Austen?  The most
description provided for the heroine is that she has "a rather fine
pair of eyes".  There are virtually no visual details in the entire
novel - you could not read this book and dress a set, or block stage
movements; description is reserved entirely to the
inter-relationships of the characters.  And this is, if not the
best, then certainly one of the top ten English-language novels of
all time.

Good writing comes from hard work; classics come from serendipity.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Jan 86 11:43:08-CST
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #21

re: Bladerunner - In military parlance, the term has long referred
to troubleshooting or "operating on the cutting edge" with overtones
of illegality from the runner/smuggler connotation.  At the least
pejorative level, it refers to things done unconventionally by one
who tends to disregard the opinions or feelings of the
establishment.  Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 86 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:

          Books - Berry & Correy & McCaffrey & Robinson &
                  Russell & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny &
                  Recommendations,
          Films - Books into Films,
          Miscellaneous -Descriptions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: msudoc!ctj@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris T. Johnson {of Systems})
Subject: review, "The Battle For Terra Two"
Date: 22 Jan 86 00:00:33 GMT

Stephen Ames Berry's "The Battle For Terra Two"
Sequel to "The Biofab War"

Score: Begining: 5, Middle: 7, End: 7, Overall: 6

Blurb: The sudden arrival of the K'Ronarin fleet saved Earth from
enslavement to the dreadful insectoid biofabs, and a new
interstellar age has dawned on the planet.  John Harrison, hero of
the Biofab War, can relax at last ... or can he?
     For unknown to the alliance, a few renegade biofabs escaped
through a dimensional portal into an alternate unicerse.  They are
rebuilding their forces for a counter-strike against all humanity
... in both universes.
     When the truth is discovered, Harrison is catapulted into a
strange world to discover the location of the biofab nest, to burn
it out before a new generation hatches.  But it won't be easy --
because in the version of Earth, Harrison is a revolutionary, on the
run from the secret police of the Fourth Reich!

Opinion: Over all I liked the book.  The story flows well from
beginning to end without any rude suprises.  The technical story is
well written staying true to the original premises.

As much as I liked the book I still felt that the author was remise
in his characterizations.  At times I found that the characters were
completely interchangeable.  I also seem to remember someone else
writing about an alternate world where the Germans won WWII (Harry
Harison??).

If you like a good battle scene you might like this book but don't
look for great things.

ctj
..!ihnp4!msudoc!ctj

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: G. Harry Stine

> Some hype has been added to the cover, stating that the problems
> involved in shuttle recovery on polar orbits out of Vandenburg
> were first explored in this book (copyright 1981) before the US
> negotiated a treaty with Chile for use of Easter Island as an
> emergency landing point (1985), and that may be true.

...and not only that, this book spurred a NASA study on
mid-flight refueling of the Shuttle-carrier 747; the book pointed
out that the max fuel load was insufficient for a trip from Easter
Island to the mainland.

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (KEITH VAGLIENTI)
Subject: Re: more sexual stuff
Date: 22 Jan 86 15:01:18 GMT

For purposes of a ballad it would be considered more heroic for the
two main characters, Moreta and Orlith, to go between at the same
time. Since Leri and Orlith went between as soon as they were no
longer needed it doesn't really counter history and it does seem to
work better.

Keith Conrad Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 86 14:48 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Cross-book references in "Mindkiller"

I just finished rereading Spider Robinson's "Mindkiller", and noted
two references to characters who appear to be dropping in to visit
from other Robinson stories.  A laurel, and hearty handshake will go
to anyone who can identify these two characters and the stories from
which they came... and a big "Huzzah!" to anyone who finds a
reference that I've missed.

Please post answers to me; I'll post a summary of the winners and
correct answers to the net next week.

Dave Platt
<Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: story request
Date: 22 Jan 86 04:57:32 GMT

>>> Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs",
>>> but [ ... ]
>> [ ... ] a story involving "obs" was the novel *The Great
>> Explosion* by Eric Frank Russell.  [ ... ]
> Hmmm.  Does anyone know if that is still in print?  I have a
> collection of short stories that has the 'obs' story in it, but I
> don't believe that it was tied in with any others.

     And you don't name the story or the collection??  Tsk tsk....

     The original request seems to have left our system while I was
on vacation.  Eric Frank Russell did write a story involving "ob"s.
It sounds like what little description I can gather from the above.
I also happen to think it's a lovely story.  It is called "...And
Then There Were None"; I have it in The Science Fiction Hall of
Fame, volume IIA (ed: Ben Bova, ISBN 0-380-00038-5, Avon Books,
Doubleday & Co, NY, NY).  Can anyone tell me if this "The Great
Explosion" is a longer version of the same thing (oh Jayembee,
Jaaayembeeee, where aaare you)?  And if so, enough information to
allow me to find the book?

der Mouse
USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
  philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
  mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Gene Wolfe small press books
Date: 22 Jan 86 16:54:23 GMT

Has anyone out there read _Castle_of_the_Otter_ or
_Planet_Engineering_?  From something I read in Dann & Duzois'
_Mermaids_, _Castle_ is about the writing of the Book of the New Sun
- and note the play on _Citadel_of_the_ _Autarch_.  And
_Planet_Engineering_ is probably columns from _Plant_ _Engineering_,
which Wolfe edits.

Supposedly somebody, TOR I think, has come out with a $16 edition of
_Free_Live_Free_, with slightly revised text.  Anybody seen it?

Anyway, if anyone has read any of these books, please drop me a line
letting me know if they're worth finding.

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 22 Jan 86 18:25:18 GMT

> My question is: What else qualifies? I guess I am not looking for
> just authors names, but key works from important authors. More
> Heinlein? which?  Doc Smith? really? Arthur Clarke? Which? Who
> else?

        Until my dying breath I will sing the praises of Gene
Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_, which is actually a tetrology (sp?).
The books included are

        The Shadow of the Torturer
        The Claw of the Conciliator
        The Sword of the Lictor
        The Citadel of the Autarch .

        I have read each of the books at least four times.  I'm in
the middle of reading the series again.  I shouldn't, because I try
to write, and reading Wolfe always depresses me :-).

        By the way; recently I got a naked rejection slip from F&SF
for the third slip (the first one that was blank, dammit) in my
collection.  On to Amazing!

Mark

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!cs111olg@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations
Date: 21 Jan 86 12:01:19 GMT

mende@aim.rutgers.edu writes:
>   A few days ago I was in a SF bookstore in New York City and I
>picked up a new book by Roger Zelazny.  The Book is titled 'Unicorn
>Variations' and is a collection of short stories.  I have seen a
>few of the stories before but most of them are new to the reader.
>The book is published by Sphere Book (London) and is not yet
>available on the US market.  This book is a MUST for all SF
>readers.  The short essays before each story tell how and why each
>story was written.

I have also enjoyed the book and found it most fascinating even tho'
I have read most of the stories in other publications ( the intro
essays DO make a difference!)

If you like Zelazny's short stories try also "The Last Defender Of
Camelot" and "Dilvish the Damned". Both books (aside from the great
short stories) provide a fascinating look into the evolvement and
maturation of Zelazny's writing style.

Oleg Kiselev.

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 23 Jan 86 18:07:45 GMT

> I have dabbled in sf for a considerable time but am no super-fan.
> I am, however, responsible for my 15 year old son's education and
> have been feeding him the classics, as known to me, in paperback.
> By "the classics" I have in mind those works which have been
> tested by time and which should form the basis for continued
> reading. For example, in mainstream literature the classics might
> be Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens, etc.

I'd like to recommend a couple of personal 'classic' favorites:
Dante's _Inferno/Purgatorio/Paradisio_ and Cervantes' _Don Quixote_.
If he's plowed through Milton (ugh) then he'll love Dante...

> So far I have covered Niven's known space and started on
> Foundation. There have been a couple of hard core Heinleins (inc.
> SST). Oh, yes, he's read Dune. Just recently we were given the
> first three of Farmer's World of Tiers - new to me - a classic?
>
> My question is: What else qualifies? I guess I am not looking for
> just authors names, but key works from important authors. More
> Heinlein? which?  Doc Smith? really? Arthur Clarke? Which? Who
> else?

First stop should be Gene Wolfe and his New Sun series starting with
_Shadow of the Torturer_. Early Niven, but none of the
collaborations (except maybe _Flying Sorcerors_ for comedy relief).
Heinlein juveniles (_Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ and _The Moon is a
Harsh Mistress_). _Time Enough For Love_ and its companions are very
important works as a turning point in SF, but can also be quite
frustrating. Foundation is overrated and doesn't age well. I'd also
suggest Ray Bradbury (_Martian Chronicles_), Harlan Ellison
(_Deathbird Stories_ is representative), Kurt Vonnegut (_Cat's
Cradle_), A.C. Clarke (_Childhood's End_). you should read Wells
(_War of the Worlds_) and Verne (_20,000 leagues Under the Sea_).
Doc Smith (Lensman Series), Piper (fuzzy Series, among others), and
Marion Zimmer Bradley (I recommend _Mists of Avalon_ but her
Darkover series is also a classical continuing saga). The best
overview of classical short fiction is _Adventures in Time and
Space_, a giant anthology of short SF. Ellison's _Dangerious
Visions_ and _Again, Dangerous Visions_ captures the New Wave of
60's and 70's SF. So does Robert Silverberg (_Dying Inside_) and
John Brunner (_Shockwave Rider_).

There are classics in the making, important to understand 70's and
80's SF.  Spider Robinson (_Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_,
_Stardance_), George R.R.  Martin (_Dying of the Light_) and John
Varley (_Millenium_ and _Persistence of Vision_).

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL
Date: 22 Jan 86 03:20:46 GMT

boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>>> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>>     In my humble opinion, never in sf has there been a case
>>> of good book being made into good movie,
>>
>>Want more? How about THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, etc. etc.
>>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)
>
>       I had to dig back 15++ years into my long term storage and
>I may be somewhat off. Wasn't this called "<something> to the
>Master".
>
>Can someone help me with this?

The story was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates.  I think you
can find it in Healy and McComas's ADVENTURES IN SPACE AND TIME.

Let me stick my neck out and mention a reasonable science fiction
novel that made a much better film.  I suspect someone will hand me
my head on this one because the film was not well-received, but I
still think it was pretty good.  The film is THE LAND THAT TIME
FORGOT.  Virtually the only thing wrong with the film were the
dinosaur special effects and they were at places laughably bad so
the film got a very bad word-of-mouth.  In fact, the script,
co-authored by Michael Moorcock, was respectful of the Edgar Rice
Burroughs novel, but still improved where it needed it.  The book
had a hero, Bowan Tyler, and a really nasty villian with no
redeeming qualities, von Schoenvorts.  Burroughs was a bit
jingo-istic and so mad the German one-dimensional and all bad.  In
the film, however, von Schoenvorts is not a villian but a second
(perhaps the main) hero.  First, he has some very good reasons for
torpedoing Tyler's boat.  Later it is von Schoenvorts who has the
organization skill to bring the Americans and the Germans into
cooperation.  He also has the intellect to unravel the mysteries of
Caprona.  In this one stroke the script makes both him and Tyler
more believable.  If you haven't seen it LAND THAT TIME FORGOT is a
pretty good adventure film in spite of a few of the special effects.
And it is more satisfying than the Burroughs novel it was based on.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Adjectives, sentence structure, etc.
Date: 21 Jan 86 21:09:45 GMT

>From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
>Rather than tell you why you *should* use less adjectives and more
>verbs, let me show you an example:
>
>1. With adjectives:
>
>As he ran through the wet brown mud in the dark of night, his only
>source of light was the whitish moonlight coming from the dark sky
>above as he continued to run away from the red car that was running
>after him.

Now, now, now - this isn't really fair, is it? You are mistakenly
implying that use of adjectives will result in passive tone, extra
clauses, and confusing sentence construction. Honestly - this sounds
like "The quick brown fox ran over the lazy dog." Certainly, sloppy
writing is more apparent with the overuse of adjectives, and less so
with nouns and verbs (although using too much metaphor is often
done). First of all, it's important to remember that adjectives as a
concept *include* descriptive nouns, metaphorical phrases, adverbs,
and even verbs. I agree with you that not enough attention is paid
to using the right verb, but your example contradicts itself: In the
first instance, you say "he ran", and in the second, "he trudged".
Here's my suggestion for the sentence:

"He ran, hard and sweating, breath pounding in his chest like a
hammer. The blood-red 'Vette was roaring up behind him, barely
glinting in the wan light from the half-moon above, and as he ran
from his death he noticed (with that fearful clarity of mind that
comes to the hunted) the mud sucking around his feet, cold and wet
from last night's rain."

Not that your second sentence was bad, and it did serve to
illustrate your point. But it would be just as easy to turn it
around and choose two sentences in the same manner and prove exactly
the opposite.

>Note that they both convey approximately the same amount of
>information, yet the second example is only half as long as the
>first example.

Why is length so bad? Why are we constantly striving to pare prose
down to its barest elements? Are we worried about boring the reader
who has the attention span of a mosquito? Isn't there more to
writing fiction than merely "conveying information"? In a short
story, certainly, efficiency of language is very important. But does
this have to extend to the novel length? They are two very different
beasts, and I would not say that Hemingway is greater than Tolstoy
because he uses less adjectives and leaves more up to the
imagination. Or that he is greater because he is faster-paced. These
are particulars, details of fiction, and judgements of questionable
value. It matters what you say, *and* how you say it. I find that
the Hemingway style is too often used to cover up dislike for style
in general, distaste for necessary description and atmosphere, and
simple laziness.

Davis Tucker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 86 1242-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Jan 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:

              In Memoriam - The Space Shuttle Disaster
              Books - McCaffrey & Shirley & Tepper &
                      Book Recommendations (2 msgs) & 
                      Robert Anson,
              Radio - A Canticle for Liebowitz,
              Miscellaneous - Description & Address Request &
                      Warp Drive & The Shuttle Disaster (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 86 12:19:09 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: In Memoriam

        This issue of the SF-LOVERS digest is dedicated to the men
and women who lost their lives on the recent Challenger space
shuttle mission.  I grieve with the relatives and friends of these
brave people who have given their lives in the cause of science and
progress.  It was a tragedy that was entirely unforseen and
certainly one that should never have been.
        The crew members were not famous SF authors, nor characters
in books or movies but were real people who were involved in forging
a future for us among the stars which we today only read and dream
about.  As we continue to read SF books, watch the movies, and
discuss them in this digest and elsewhere, let us keep in mind those
that have given their lives to bring us a better tomorrow.
        They died as heroes.

R.I.P.
Michael Smith
Dick Scobee
Judith Resnik
Ronald McNair
Ellison Onizuka
Gregory Jarvis
Christa McAuliffe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 86 22:57:27 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@Rice.EDU>
Subject: McCaffrey's Moreta,...

warren@pluto.UUCP writes:
>While mentioning Moreta, has anyone in this group commented on the
>fact that the Ballad of Moreta's Ride that is sung in Dragonsinger
>(p119) has Moreta, dying of the disease, flying @i(between) with
>Orlith, while in the book Moreta and Leri's Holth are lost
>@i(between)?

BEGIN SPOILER;

I was quite dissapointed when I finished M,DLoP.  I read the
Dragonriders trilogy in order, then I read the Harper Hall trilogy
in order.  When M,DLoP came out in hardback, I eagerly borrowed the
first copy offered me and devoured it.  I was expecting a tale on
the scale of the narrative related to us in Dragonsinger.  A very
noble lady on *her* queen, dying a very noble death while trying to
save her world.  But the end of the book left me with the very
definite impression that the death could have been so easily
avoided.  She never should have gone between that last time.  The
job was done.  Moreta and Holth were exhausted.  The Holder even
offered (as I recall) his hospitality.  He would have welcomed them
with open arms.  But, no, Moreta had to get back to her queen, and
Holth her rider.  So, an exhausted rider on an exhausted dragon lost
themselves between.  I read that and said to myself, "Boy, that was
stupid.  Why did they do that?"  It seemed like there was no need to
take that extra risk.  The pressure was off.  Relax and take it
easy.  Now this could be rationalized away by saying that the
mounting pressures of riders being away from their dragons
(especially with one dragon brooding over eggs) made them take that
final, fatal, risk.  But that was not the impression the story left
me with --- indicating a flaw on the part of the writer!

END SPOILER;

And, yes, the inconsistencies abound.  One that has yet to be
mentioned in the current discussion (although it has been mentioned
in this forum before) is this: F'lar says that Ruatha hold has
provided Pern with many good Weyrwomen, like Torene and *Moreta*.
But, the Moreta of M,DLoP is from a beasthold in the plains of
Keroon(? --- I can't be sure and my books are at home).  NOT from
Ruatha.

umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel) writes:
> The other explanation is loss of information over time.  Lots of
> things got lost, such as the verifiable existence of firelizards,
> accepted in Moreta's time, but relegated to children's fairy tales
> by Lessa'a.

Accepted in Moreta's time by whom?  The only mention of fire lizards
in M,DLoP was when a bronze dragon reported that he had seen nothing
during the past hours except fire lizards flying.  His rider's
response was that he had a sense of humor!  The rider, and everyone
else in the scene (including Moreta), thought the dragon was joking.

However, a good example of information loss is the dragon's ability
to "time" it.  That technique was known but kept secret in Moreta's
time, the knowledge being resticted to bronze and gold dragons and
their riders (Moreta was surprised to find out that the Masterhealer
knew), but no one in Lessa's time knew of the trick.  She
rediscovered it.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: More Cyberpunks/neuromantics
Date: 24 Jan 86 22:55:11 GMT

I tried to mail a letter to the person who posted the preveous
article on Cyberpunks/Neuromantics, but it got bounced twice.

Anyway, the upshot is that I went out and bought
_Three_Ring_Psychus_ by John Shirley.  It was seemingly a typical
end-of-the-world book, kinda poorly written, perhaps a little more
anti-authoritarian than most.  What appealed to me about it was its
total disregard for "science".  Perhaps this is what Shirley meant
by "With the movement, SF is unbound."  Generally what this
ammounted to was when something was explained, the supposed causes
would have actually led to the opposite effects.  For instance, the
fact that the sun still "rises" and "sets" is used as evidence that
the lack of gravity is not caused by a cessasion of rotation on the
part of the Earth.  If my physics is screwed up as much as
Shirley's, I don't want to hear about it, ok?

What the book reminded me of was Disch's _The_Genocides_ without the
depression.  In fact, everything ends up on a more-or-less positive
note, although there is a hint that things may still not be utterly
utopian, at least if you're a human who likes autonomy.

Anyway, I have been so far unable to find any books by Rudy Rucker,
although St. Olaf's science library supposedly has a could of books
by a Rudy Rucker on the subject of the fourth dimension.

If anybody actually read the articles in Locus which prompted this
whole discussion, could he/she please post something about said
articles' contents?  And if the person who posted the preveous
article reads this, try to contact me.

Laurence Roberts
...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 08:15:57 EST
From: "Cyril N. Alberga" <alberga.yktvmx%ibm-sj.csnet@CSNET-SH.ARPA>
Subject: Tepper: location of Alphenlicht

After seeing Alphenlicht located in Europe for the SECOND time I
feel forced to write.  It is clear from the book the Alphenlicht is
south of the Caucasus.  Lake Van and the former Kingdom of Van are
in Eastern Anatolia, now Turkey, south of Soviet Armenia and near
the Iraqi/Irani boarders.  It's all very mountainous in that area,
and is near enough to Iran to make the presence of Magi (as
desendants of Zorastrians?) reasonable.  Of course there is no
"free" space there, but the same can be said for Davidson's "Triune
Monarchy", and that never bothered me either.  The only anomaly to
me a odd feeling that there should be a link to Bactria and the
Alexandrian Greek asiatic monarchies, but that may be just my own
addition to the mise-en-scene.

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 24 Jan 86 17:09:38 GMT

Must-read, classic SF?

I'd have to second or third the recommendation for Gene Wolfe's
_Book_of_the_New_Sun_ Tetralogy.

Other stuff: Thomas Disch's _Camp_Concentration_, which is about the
nature of intelligence.

Some biting satirical SF would be good to read, like Pohl &
Kornbluth's _Space_Merchants_, which is aboutadvertising and
marketing.

I also think there's merit in books by Somtow Sucharitkul
(_Light_on_ _the_Sound_) and Norman Spinrad
(_The_Last_Hurrah_of_the_Golden_Horde_).

Did anyone mention Walter Miller's _A_Canticle_For_Leibowitz_?
That's mandatory post-nuclear-war stuff.

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 25 Jan 86 21:07:03 GMT

For Heinlein, try Double Star, the Star Beast, Starship Troopers,
and the Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
will remind you of Starship Troopers.

For a different view of Doc Smith style space opera, try The
Wanderer by Fritz Leiber (or most anything else by Fritz Leiber, for
that matter).  Poul Anderson's Flandry series is sort of space opera
as politics.

For Arthur Clarke, try The City and the Stars.  There's a book by
Tanith Lee on the same idea (the title escapes me).  In Clarke's
Childhood's end you will find better treatments of many of the ideas
of 2001.  One of his inspirations was probably Last and First Men,
by Olaf Stapeldon.

There are many others: More than Human by Theodore Sturgeon, The
Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin, Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny,
Picnic on Paradise by Joanna Russ, Nova and Dalghren by Samuel R.
Delany, etc.  But I don't remember how old you said your son was...

John Quarterman,
UUCP:  {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Sat 25 Jan 86 19:02:36-EST
From: "Jim McGrath" <MCGRATH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Robert Anson Query
Cc: MCGRATH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU

>From: hamachi@KIM (Gordon Hamachi)
>What happened to the character named Robert Anson?

Although I do not believe it was mentioned explicitly, I am sure
that Robert Anson died (probably of heart failure).  As with many of
the characters in the book ("Curtis Wade" is really Pournelle (he
writes his spy/adventure novels under that name), Robert Anson was
really Robert Heinlein, who also has a bad heart.

Jim

------------------------------

From: geowhiz!schuh@caip.rutgers.edu (David Schuh)
Subject: Re: SF Diletante. Re A canticle for liebowitz
Date: 26 Jan 86 08:37:16 GMT

robertsl@stolaf.UUCP (Laurence C. Roberts) writes:
>Did anyone mention Walter Miller's _A_Canticle_For_Leibowitz_?
>That's mandatory post-nuclear-war stuff.

This was also the subject (ACfL) of an EXCELLENT radio adaptation by
Wisconsin Public Radio, for National Public Radio.  A couple of
years ago, Catch it if you can.  I have no idea of how often or when
it will be rereleased but info could probably be gotten from Carl
Schmidt @ wisconsin public radio, 821 university avenue. madison wi.
53706-407

dave schuh
!uwvax!geowhiz!schuh

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 86 08:34:59 EST
From: "Cyril N. Alberga" <alberga.yktvmx%ibm-sj.csnet@CSNET-SH.ARPA>
Subject: Description

Since I moved to write today, I might as well throw in my two cents
worth.

In all the discussion of description, why has no one mentioned
Cherryh?  Of all the writers working today I find her work creating
the most "real" worlds.  I can smell the air on her docks, and hear
the movements behind me.  She seems to tell much of her stories via
description.  More than most she shows rather than explains.

I realize that this make her work somewhat more difficult, you have
to think about everything, notice things and remember them.  (I'm
reading Cookoo's Egg just now, and it is interesting that that is
what Thorn must learn.  Clearly that is the way she wants people to
view her universes as well.)

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

From: euroies!ciaran@caip.rutgers.edu (Ciaran Byrne)
Subject: Address of "Industrial Light and Magic" needed
Date: 24 Jan 86 19:16:30 GMT

 Please could someone mail me with the address of Industrial Light
and Magic in California.  Thanks.

Ciaran
UUCP: mcvax!euroies!ciaran

------------------------------

Subject: A myth exploded !
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jim White)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 86 10:15:31 EST

So it seems that the 'warp drive' was not a creation of the Star
Trek writers, and the Startrek ships are not the only ones that can
go 'Warp x'.

While reading Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat, I noted that at
least one ship that he had appropriated was fitted with a 'Warp
drive'. Since The Stainless Steel Rat predates Startrek...... well.

Does anyone in Netland know the first reference and/or origin of the
'Warp drive'?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 86 14:36 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: In Memory of the 25th Space Shuttle Crew

In the wake of this tragic launch, which so quickly snuffed out the
lives of the crew of the shuttle, I would like to repeat some of the
things that I have heard that relate directly to this event.

But first, please observe a moment of silence for those souls that
we have lost.

Here where I work, at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, we
have a number of guest speakers come and address a number of topics.
One of the people that appeared was Dr. Hans Mark, former head of
NASA during the Nixon rein.

He was involved when the Apollo missions were finished and the Space
Shuttle was being proposed.  He informed us of their original plan,
which was a completely reusable shuttle and a space station.  It was
estimated that it could all have been done for the same price as the
Apollo missions, which was about $24 billion.  They asked President
Nixon at a bad time, and he said that we could not afford it and
could they do something for half the price?

They went back and pondered the idea.  Considering the two aspects
of the proposal, the space station and the shuttle, the station was
the easier of the two, so they decided to do it last.  Thus the
decision was made to start the shuttle program.  They went back to
the President and asked for $12 billion to build a reusable two
stage shuttle.  He had just devalued the dollar that day, so he said
that we couldn't afford it, could they do something for half the
price?

They were ready this time, they had anticipated this tack and had
prepared a proposal that consisted of the less desirable half
disposable shuttle, which we had been using to great success.  This
plan was approved and has been flown successfully 24 times.

The point of all of this is that while it may be good to save money,
it is far better to do something right than risk this loss of life.
Cutting funding does not make the program more economical, it makes
it more hazardous.  We must appeal to Congress to push for more
money for NASA so that this tragedy can be prevented.  We must not
let this prove to be the death toll for the space program.

As for the poor astronauts lost on this flight, some may call them
courageous, but I believe that the people flying the next mission
will really be the courageous ones.

May God fly with them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 28 Jan 86 17:27:52-PST
From: Mark Crispin <Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: shuttle disaster speculation
To: Wancho@SIMTEL20.ARPA, Geoff@SRI-CSL.ARPA

     After watching the disaster several times on TV and talking
with several other people, here's mine:

     A crack developed in the casing of the left-hand solid fuel
rocket (as seen in the TV footage of the explosion).  Perhaps it was
caused by the below-freezing temperatures and sudden subsequent
heating stressing the metal until it fatigued and cracked.  The
solid fuel has an empty cone up the middle, to give more surface
area when it burns and the crack developed in the casing into the
solid fuel from this cone.

     The solid fuel ruptured and caused the primary explosion in the
left-hand solid fuel rocket -- this is visible by single-stepping
through the video recording frame-by-frame.  This ignited the liquid
fuel tank; the resulting explosion blew it and the shuttle to bits.
Finally the other solid fuel rocket flew off by itself for a bit.

     The astronauts never had a chance; it all happened in 1/15 of a
second.  It may never be known for sure what happened.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 86 1304-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Jan 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:

         Books - Haldeman & Leiber & Richardson (2 msgs) &
                 Zelazny (2 msgs) & Recommendations (2 msgs),
         Films - Land that Time Forgot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 86 11:18:56 est
From: mike%bambi@mouton.ARPA
Subject: Joe Haldeman and WAR YEAR

WAR YEAR was originally written as a "beginning adult reader".  It
was intended to have a more mature theme than most juveniles
(Heinlein excepted :-) but be easy for beginning readers to cope
with.  In that form, the narrator does survive and return to the US.
Haldeman wanted him to die, but that was deemed too downbeat by the
publisher.

When WAR YEAR was released in paperback (with a shameless "try and
sell it as SF" cover) the original Haldeman ending was restored.
The beginning adult version was only ever printed in hardback.  You
might find it in a library (though I couldn't say where in a library
it would be).

By the way, Haldeman's DEALING IN FUTURES, a short story/novella
collection just out, is well worth reading, especially for the
alternate treatment of the "return to Earth" from FOREVER WAR.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.arpa
ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

From: warwick!ds@caip.rutgers.edu (Douglas Spencer)
Subject: Re: Father-son writers
Date: 24 Jan 86 12:01:01 GMT

>Fritz Leiber's son, Justin Leiber, is also an SF author, and based
>on the one book of his that I've read, he shows a lot of promise.
>I don't remember the name of the book -- it was a selection of the
>SF Book Club, and it was (hazily remembered) about a guy who gets
>killed or almost killed, gets his brain and/or his consciousness
>put in a new body which happens to be female and have a tail, and
>his subsequent adventures.

This may be _Beyond Rejection_ , of which I have read a part, as
quoted in _The Mind's I_ edited by Douglas R Hofstadter and Daniel C
Dennet.(sp)

Douglas Spencer
Mathematics Institute
University of Warwick
Coventry
CV4 7AL
England
..seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!ds

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH
Date: 25 Jan 86 10:45:53 GMT

>  The crew at the OCOH admit that they goofed.  R.S. Richardson is
> somebody else.  G. Harry Stine is real, and writes as Lee Correy.

Right.  R.S. Richardson is R(obert) S(hirley(!)) Richardson, a
professional astronomer.  He's written both nonfiction and sf
stories.  And he also uses a pseudonym for his sf, which probably
contributed to the confusion.  The pseudonym is: Philip Latham.

(I use the present tense, but I don't actually know that he's still
alive.  My 1977 reference gives his dates as "1902- ".)

Mark Brader

------------------------------

From: astrovax!wls@caip.rutgers.edu (William L. Sebok)
Subject: Re: December Booklist from the OCOH
Date: 27 Jan 86 04:51:17 GMT

For whatever its worth, a quick look into my copy of the American
Astronomical Society (AAS) membership directory shows no R.S.
Richardson (or P. Latham) there. I'm not sure about the significance
of that.  Essentially all of my professional astronomer friends and
acquaintances are in the AAS but the view here from Princeton and
Caltech (where I did my Ph.D) work may not be representative of the
country as a whole.

Bill Sebok
Princeton University, Astrophysics
{allegra,akgua,cbosgd,decvax,ihnp4,noao,philabs,princeton,vax135}\
  !astrovax!wls

------------------------------

From: harvard!knight@caip.rutgers.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: Zelazny's Amber (long)
Date: 26 Jan 86 22:24:15 GMT

Amber fans --

        What follows is a history of The Chronicles of Amber, with
the events in their proper order (I hope!).  My brother and I worked
this out over the holidays, and it doesn't include Trumps of Doom
yet.  I guess this is the *ultimate* spoiler, so don't go any
further unless you don't care!

        If you wonder now and then -- *who* did shoot out Corwin's
tires? -- then you might enjoy this.  Some of the ordering is
debatable, so if you think something is wrong or omitted, I'd love
to hear from you.  My address is "knight@harvard".

        Finally, for people with a favorite character: save this to
a file and do a pattern match, something like "grep Brand
<filename>".  It's fun!

        Good-bye and hello, as always,

                                Kevin Knight

P.S.  Anybody know anything about the next Amber book?  Is Trumps of
Doom out in paperback?  WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO MERLIN?!

THE BEGINNING

The Jewel is revealed to Dworkin by the Unicorn
Dworkin creates Amber out of Chaos
Oberon is born
Oberon's children are born
Dworkin fashions the family Trumps

THE OLD DAYS

Corwin and Bleys strand Random on an island
Random puts a spike in Corwin's boot
Brand, Bleys, and Fiona study with Dworkin
Random goes to Rebma and elopes with Morganthe
Martin born to Random and Morganthe
Random banished from Rebma
Corwin gulls Caine
Corwin beats Julian at his favorite game
Benedict fights off the Moonriders out of Ghenesh
Dark things out of Shadow attack at Jones Falls
Brand has argument with Corwin
Corwin rules over Avalon
Benedict leaves Amber
Corwin and Eric fight while hunting in the Forest of Arden
Dworkin tells Oberon how to destroy the Pattern
Oberon imprisons Dworkin

BEFORE THE CHRONICLES

Corwin exiled by Eric after their fight
Tomb built for Corwin, assumed dead
Brand, Bleys, and Fiona form cabal
Brand allies with powers from Chaos and learns about destroying
  Pattern
Brand asks Llewella, Random, and Benedict about Martin
Random goes to Texorami
Brand paints a trump of Martin
Brand finds Martin and stabs him over the Pattern
Oberon gets mad with Eric and glorifies Corwin over dinner
Flora first spots Corwin on Shadow Earth
Oberon is lured away by Brand, Bleys, and Fiona
Oberon goes into hiding
Bleys and Eric argue over the throne; Bleys leaves Amber
Eric seizes control of Amber
Brand tries to win Caine over to the cabal, fails
Eric-Caine-Julian alliance formed
Brand sees Corwin in Tir-na Nog'th
Brand under surveillance by Eric in Amber
Bleys and Fiona split with Brand
Corwin begins to regain memory
Brand escapes Amber, puts Corwin in Porter Sanitarium
Brand recaptured by Eric
Brand escapes again, shoots Corwin's tires out
Eric puts Corwin in Greenwood, under Flora's care
Brand captured by Bleys and Fiona, put in Tower
Brand calls Random for help
Random attempts to save Brand, fails
Julian contacts Random about the throne
Random loses his Trumps

NINE PRINCES IN AMBER

Corwin escapes Greenwood, goes to Flora's house
Corwin finds Flora's Trumps
Flora attempts to return to Amber, fails
Random arrives at Flora's house
Corwin and Random set out for Amber
Corwin and Random take Julian prisoner in Arden, release him
Corwin and Random save Deirdre, go to Rebma
Random sentenced to marry Vialle
Corwin walks Pattern in Rebma
Corwin transports himself to Amber
Corwin and Eric fight
Corwin goes to Bleys, encamped at Avernus
Bleys and Corwin make alliance
Corwin makes deals with Gerard and Caine to open the seas
Corwin contacts Oberon and Brand by Trump, both weakly
Corwin and Bleys build force, attack Amber, fail
Bleys falls off stairs, Corwin taken
Eric crowned
Corwin blinded, imprisoned, fed by Lord Rein
Corwin escapes to Cabra with Dworkin's help
Corwin stays with Jopin at the Lighthouse
Corwin resists Trump contact, decides to leave Cabra

THE GUNS OF AVALON

Corwin goes to Lorraine
Corwin meets Lance, travels to the Keep of Ganelon
Corwin meets Lorraine, the girl
Someone attempts to contact Corwin once more
Corwin and Ganelon defeat the Black Circle
Corwin and Ganelon travel to Avalon
Benedict defeats the Hellmaids
Corwin and Ganelon meet Benedict
Corwin meets Dara
Ganelon kills Benedict's servants
Corwin gets diamonds and gunpowder
Corwin and Ganelon leave Avalon, encounter Black Road
Corwin saves girl from Black Road
Benedict chases Corwin, fights, loses
Corwin calls Gerard to help Benedict
Corwin gets guns on Earth
Eric begins major battle with Black Road
Corwin visits old house, reads Eric's message
Ganelon and Corwin march on Amber
Dara arrives in Amber
Corwin wins the battle for Amber
Eric dies in battle
Corwin and Random go to the Pattern
Dara completes the Pattern
Dara claims "Amber will be destroyed"

SIGN OF THE UNICORN

Caine is found dead
Random tells his story (of the Tower) to Corwin
Corwin attunes to the Jewel
Flora tells her story (of Eric, etc.) to Corwin
Corwin visits his tomb with Ganelon
Corwin and Gerard fight, bury Caine, at the Grove of the Unicorn
Corwin and Gerard see the Unicorn
Brand is returned by united family effort
Fiona stabs Brand
Caine stabs Corwin
Corwin returns to Shadow Earth, stashes Jewel
Random brings Corwin back to Amber
Corwin visits Brand
Corwin goes to Tir-na Nog'th, gets mechanical arm from Benedict
Corwin, Ganelon, and Random follow Unicorn to Primal Pattern

THE HAND OF OBERON

Martin's Trump found in the Pattern
Benedict and Random seek Martin
Corwin talks to Vialle
Corwin goes to Dworkin's quarters
Corwin trumps to the Courts of Chaos
Corwin returns via Gerard's Trump
Corwin talks to Brand again
Caine attacks Brand
Ganelon tells Benedict about Dara
Corwin and Benedict form alliance
Gerard fights Corwin again, Ganelon intercedes
Corwin talks to Julian
Corwin returns to Earth to retrieve the Jewel
Brand gets the Jewel first
Corwin talks to Fiona
Corwin orders all the Patterns guarded
Brand starts walking the Primal Pattern
Corwin intercepts him, forces Brand to transport out
Random finds Martin, who tells his story
Brand goes to Tir-na Nog'th to walk Pattern there
Benedict intercepts him, regains the Jewel, using mechanical arm
Ganelon reveals himself as Oberon

THE COURTS OF CHAOS

Oberon takes command, gives separate orders to his children
Replay of Tir-na Nog'th scene in Amber, Benedict loses arm
Corwin talks to Dara, learns of Merlin
Corwin tries to repair the Pattern himself and is stopped by Oberon
Corwin talks to Oberon
Oberon orders everyone to attack Chaos
Corwin begins his hellride
Oberon starts walking the Pattern to repair it
Oberon sends the Jewel to Corwin via the bird
Brand's first contact with Corwin ("Dad failed")
Corwin hides in cave, meets man with scripture
Corwin almost lured by dwarves and by Lady
Brand's second contact with Corwin (appears with crossbow, loses eye)
Corwin meets Ygg, Hugi, and the Jackal
Corwin inscribes a new Pattern
Brand's third contact with Corwin (grabs the Jewel)
Corwin and Brand both transport to Chaos
Corwin kills Duke Borel of Chaos
Battle of Chaos
Oberon's message in the sky
Brand killed by Caine's crossbow, drags Deirdre over the cliff
Family reunites after the battle
Oberon's funeral
Merlin appears
Random made King of Amber by the Unicorn
Corwin attunes Random to the Jewel
Random diverts the Wave of Chaos as Corwin tells his story to Merlin

------------------------------

From: hogge@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: 7th Amber book?
Date: 25 Jan 86 04:00:00 GMT

I just polished off the 6th book of Amber (Zelazny's "Trumps of
Doom").  Kind of leaves you hanging, doesn't it?  I liked it the
best of all the Amber books, since the mystery-novel elements were
stronger.  (Some of the previous books' mysteries weren't very
tight.)

The question is, Is there a 7th book out or coming soon?  What if
Zelazny dies suddenly?  I'd be screwed for LIFE!!

John

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 86 02:14:11 EST (Mon)
Subject: Re request from an SF Diletante
From: ted%bragg1@braggfs

Well, I can tell you what I thought were classics when I was his
age, books that helped solidify my adddiction to SF.  I'm scared to
reread some of them now (not to mention not having the time).
Someday, I want to make a posting just of my favorite juveniles too.

Doc Smith - Yes.  People laugh at his characters today, but his
        books had such scope and sweep that I never noticed. (I'm
        not even sure I would today).  Sense of wonder is what the
        genre is about and few people inspired it better.  My
        personal favorites were an obscurer work, _Spacehounds of
        the IPC_, and _Skylark 3_, where he really started to pull
        out all the stops.

Heinlein - Almost all of his jeuviniles are classics.  If I had to
        pick two, they would be _Space Cadet_ and _Starship
        Troopers_.  Of his non juvenile work, the best is probably
        _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ and _Time Enough For Love_
        (though you might want to read them before passing them on
        to a 15 year old).

Clarke - Clarke never had much appeal to me at that age (or now
        either for that matter), with the wonderful exception of 1
        book : _Against the Fall of Night_.  He later rewrote it as
        _The City and the Stars_, but for me the first version
        remains definitive.  (Both stay in print).

Along with a list of juveniles, I want also to make a fuller list
of books that were important to me in starting off, but that would
take more research and pondering than I have time for now, so just
let me close by boosting an author I have mentioned before on the
net and anthologies.

Alan Nourse - Nourse wrote a number of juveniles that I read over
        and over again.  My favorite (and still one of my all time
        favorites) was _Raiders From the Rings_, but I must have
        read _The World Between_ almost as much, and a book about
        two estranged brothers (_Scavengers_ ? maybe) learning to
        respect each other in some sort of crisis (sorry, that one's
        a little hazy now).  He also had a story collection _Psi
        High and Others_, and a number of books and stories of a
        future galactic society where Earth was the center of
        medical knowledge (Hospital Earth).

And anthologies.  SF was, and still to a large extent is, a genre of
short stories and many (perhaps the bulk) of its classic moments
come in them.  There is one absolutely essential anthology :
_Adventures in Time and Space_, edited by Mccomas and Healy (I
think). They mined the literature before anyone else thought to, and
by and large every story is a classic.  Also, Groff Conklin used to
put together huge anthologies of classic stories and these are well
worth having and reading.  Beyond that, it gets spotty, but _The
Astounding/Analog Reader_ edited by Harry Harrison (probably) sticks
in my memory (Remember the first time you read "The Cold
Equations"?).  The Science Fiction Hall of Fame books cover good
teritory too.

As I say, one day I want to make a better list, but these ought to
keep him busy for a while.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggfs

PS: Almost forgot ERB.  He doesn't get much good critical press, but
    he was seminal and wrote some genuine classics.  _A Princess of
    Mars_ in particular has to be one of the most imitated books in
    SF, enough so that there is now a subgenre of "swords and
    planets" books.  Very few of them catch the true spirit of the
    original though; get it.

------------------------------

From: ico!chris@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 24 Jan 86 14:14:00 GMT

Doc Smith Yes! The Lensman series is the best exposition of the
galactic viewpoint that i've seen. Also good is anything by James H.
Schmitz. His "The Witches Of Karres" and "Agent of Vega" are
particularly enjoyable.

Chris Kostanick
hao!ico!chris

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL
Date: 24 Jan 86 17:14:26 GMT

> If you haven't seen it LAND THAT TIME FORGOT is a pretty good
> adventure film in spite of a few of the special effects.  And it
> is more satisfying than the Burroughs novel it was based on.
>                               Mark Leeper

I wouldn't go so far as to say LAND THAT TIME FORGOT is a *pretty*
good adventure film -- but it is a good adventure film.  Certainly
worth catching on the tube when it comes round.

Barb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jan 86 0838-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 31 Jan 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:

             Books - Auel & Hubbard & Landis & Sagan &
                     Wolfe & Zelazny & Back Cover Blurbs &
                     Story Requests (2 msgs) & 
                     Story Answers (2 msgs) &
                     Book Recommendation,
             Miscellaneous - SILiCON & The Space Shuttle (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Jean Auel writing style
Date: 28 Jan 86 16:24:07 GMT

There has been some critcal comment on the networks about the
writing style, romance-novel-style sex scenes, etc., in Auel's
books, especially the latest one (Mammoth Hunters). In the light of
this discussion, I thought I'd post an extract from an article about
her that appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Monday, Jan. 27,
1986 (pg E1):

"When Auel sat down in 1977 to write a short story about a
prehistoric woman, she got caught up in her research. In the end,
she found herself with a huge manuscript, enough for six books. Then
she reread it, she says, 'and it was awful. I realized I had to
learn how to write.'

So she taught herself."

I would guess that some of the posters who have criticized the style
would say that she didn't do that great a job... :-)

Actually, the criticisms I have seen are not surprising if the above
is taken into account. They seemed to center on too much fluff or
padding, and that is what you have when you start off with a "huge
manuscript" as described. You need really ruthless editing to pare
such stuff down to pure lean meat, and I suppose the "giant-novel"
trends we have seen so much of have reduced the publishers' interest
in such trimming.

Regards, Will

------------------------------

Date: Tue 28 Jan 86 18:23:02-PST
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard dies

The church of scientology announced monday (27-jan) night.  he was
74.  So much for the decology.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 86 10:27 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: book info req.

In regards to the book that was similar to Stasheff's "Warlock ...",
I believe you're talking about the Camolot books by Arthur Landis.
These consist of "A World Called Camolot", "Camolot in Orbit", and
another book of which I don't the title.  These books were very
good.  The main character is a terran agent sent to Camolot, a world
where magic seems to work.  He was sent there because the previous
agents had been sending some very strange reports up until the
reports stopped coming.  This agent poses as a warrior, and since he
comes from a high gravity world, he has a lot of strength.  He also
has some nifty devices with him that come in handy.  The idea is not
to disturb the inhabitants, and not to let them know that he is from
outside.  These devices produce effects similar to magic.  A very
good example of Lazarus Long's comment "A sufficiently high level of
technology is indistinguishable from magic."  (Or something like
that.)

Is this the book you meant?

   Brett Slocum
   (Slocum@HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

From: cernvax!rbt@caip.rutgers.edu (rbt)
Subject: looking for Sagan's first novel
Date: 30 Jan 86 21:54:49 GMT

I know that,some months ago,the first novel of Carl Sagan has
appeared in the bookshops in the U.S..The novel should be about the
first contact of mankind with extra-terrestrial intelligences.I
would like to place an order for this book ,but I don't remember the
publisher.  Anybody know?  Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

From: analog!kim@caip.rutgers.edu (Kim Helliwell          )
Subject: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 27 Jan 86 22:25:37 GMT

I've seen several kudos on this newsgroup for Gene Wolfe's Book of
the New Sun, and they nearly always prompt the following train of
thought in my mind:

What is it that you who love it (and read and re-read it avidly) see
in it that I am missing?  I've made it to the end of the second
volume, the one which ends with the invitation to journey further
with the protagonist, but does not blame the reader if he chooses
not to--saying "it is no easy journey".  Even up to that point it is
no easy journey, so I've paused long to consider whether I want to
go any further!

I must be missing some crucial point--is it something that will come
clear if I go on, or would the net advise me to abandon it because,
"if you have to ask, you ain't never going to know!"

If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is
trying to do with this work, it might help.

hplabs!analog!kim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jan 86 10:25:52 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Zelazny movie?

Just noticed the following in the author-biography blurb in the back
of the Ballantine paperback edition of Zelazny's ROADMARKS
(copyright 1979, this edition published August 1980):

"He is currently working on a full-ength animated film 'involving
elements of American Indian mythology'."

So it seems that this project was in the works circa 1980. I don't
recall hearing anything else about this anywhere, either on
SF-Lovers or anywhere else, and I wonder if anyone has any info to
offer about this. Is it a project that died a-borning? Is it
something Zelazny is still working on (maybe on and off at times)?
Or was it completed but never released, or released but never
distributed, or what?

Please post any data you might have on this!

Regards, Will

------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@caip.rutgers.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Back cover blurbs
Date: 22 Jan 86 18:04:52 GMT

Anne McCaffrey said it best: "Back cover blurb writers have only two
goals in life.  The first is to give everything away.  The second is
to get it all wrong!"  This statement pretty much sums up my opinion
of back cover blurbs.  I generally try to avoid reading the back
cover until after I've finished the book; I rely on reviews
(especially reviews in net.sf-lovers and net.books) for information
about books I'm considering purchasing.

That's why I'm disappointed and chagrined to find several recent
reviews in net.sf-lovers that begin with the back cover blurb,
verbatim.  I could understand it if the reviewer feels that the
blurb sums up the book better than he or she could, but in some of
these the reviewer follows the quote of the blurb with something
like "As usual, the jacket description is rather overblown and
misleading."  If this is the case, why include the blurb as the
first screen or more of the review?

I don't recall whether it's one particular reviewer that's doing
this, or several different ones.  I just wish {he,she,they} would
stop.  Just review the book, please, and if we want to read the back
cover we can do it in the bookstore or library.

I hope that this doesn't lead to any flames.  Help keep sf-lovers
civil!

David D. Levine
(...{decvax,ihnp4,hplabs}!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP]
(davidl%teklds%tektronix@csnet-relay.arpa)         [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 86 18:34:33 EST (Wed)
From: jgold@BBNCC6.ARPA

I am posting this for a sci-fi lovin' friend

1.  WANTED: a Xerox copy would be peachy, books better.

            A copy of the story "Stone Circle" by Lisa Tuttle from
            Amazing Science Fiction - March 1976

            An old H.P. Lovecraft book of short stories called
            "Mountains of Madness".

2.  Can any one identify a sci-fi love story by Pg Wyal (sp?)
    about a prince and a princess, published in 1970 in an
    anthology paperback.

Please reply to Jamie Gold (jgold@bbncc6.arpa)
                BBN Communications Corp.
                33 Moulton Street
                Cambridge, MA 02238
                (617) 497-3673

------------------------------

From: valid!jao@caip.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: What is the name of this story?
Date: 30 Jan 86 16:58:49 GMT

   Once upon a time (about 15 years ago) I read a story which I have
been trying ever since to find again.  It was pecularly constructed,
so as to have a suprise beginning.
   It was in three parts: the first part was prefaced by "This is
the end of the story"; the second by "This in the middle of the
story"; the third by "This is the beginning of the story."  It was
about novelette length.  I think it had robots in it.
   Somehow I have the notion in my mind that it was written by Henry
Kuttner (possibly writing as Lewis Padgett), but I have searched my
Kuttner collection (which is extensive but not complete) and failed
to find it.
   Can any of you netlanders help me?  advaTHANKSnce

John Oswalt (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!jao)

------------------------------

From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Swan)
Subject: Re: The Man who was a Jazz Band
Date: 24 Jan 86 07:32:42 GMT

keesan@bbncci writes:
>My associative memory says that this story is called "Double,
>Double", and that it was in one of the Judith Merill "Best of 19.."
>anthologies, [among other places].  I remember the book being a
>relatively thick paperback with a black (possibly slightly
>star-speckled) cover, and probably number 5 or 6 in Merrill's
>"Best" series.  I think this would date it some time in the middle
>or late 1960s.  My memory refuses to come up with an author for
>this

Very good! It _is_ "Double, Double, Toil and Trouble" by Holley
Cantine, copyright 1959. The book is Judith Merril's 6th Annual
Edition The Year's Best SF (black cover with a ?planet? on it - 50
cents) for 1961.

William Swan
{ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: When The Bough Breaks (and book-finder request)
Date: 27 Jan 86 20:56:22 GMT

"When the Bough Breaks" was republished in the Asimov/Greenberg
series of anthologies "The Great SF Stories" volume 6 (1944). It was
also in the anthology "Tomorrow's Children" edited by Isaac Asimov.
I used to have a copy of this latter book, but unfortunately it
vanished.  If anybody out there has a (paperback) copy of it they
would be prepared to part with I would LOVE to hear from them.

                {.....}!decvax!wanginst!apollo!johnf

or, since communications with decvax have been a bit unreliable of
late,

                {.....}!hsi!yale!apollo!johnf

John Francis                        (617)-256-6600 Ext. 5329.
10 Nutmeg Drive
Nashua NH 03062

------------------------------

From: inmet!frankr@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 29 Jan 86 05:18:00 GMT

Classic science fiction? I bet you get *tons* of replies.

My list of classic novels:

   o Heinlein - The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, Stranger In A Strange
     Land, Beyond This Horizon
   o Sturgeon - More Than Human, The Synthetic Man
   o Zelazny - Lord of Light, This Immortal
   o Simak - Waystation, City
   o Brunner - Stand On Zanzibar
   o Bester - The Demolished Man, The Burning Man
   o Herbert - Dune
   o Disch - Camp Concentration
   o Delany - Nova
   o Panshin - Rite Of Passage
   o Farmer - To All Your Scattered Bodies Go
   o Leiber - Conjure Wife
   o LeGuin - Left Hand Of Darkness
   o Pohl - Gateway, The Space Merchants
   o Wells - The Time Machine, The War Of The Worlds
   o Verne - Mysterious Island
   o Niven - Ringworld

(Talk about self fulfilling prophecies! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 01:02:35 est
From: Steve Strassmann <straz@MEDIA-LAB.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Last call for SILiCON

Last fall, I sent a blurb about SILiCON to this list, since it seems
to have the audience most likely to be interested. Since the entry
deadline's coming up, I figured I'd give it one more go.

SILiCON is a marathon role-playing game/convention that'll be held
in the Boston area on March 21-23, 1986.  Basically, the Society for
Interactive Literature (SIL) is a bunch of students who've run a
similar game at Boskone (the Boston SF convention) for 4 years, and
it's been so successful, we decided to start our own con just for
the game.

The emphasis is on both Interactive and Literature. In each of 6
games, there's 60 or so players and 3-4 gamesmasters. When you
apply, you select a game and fill out a brief personality
questionnaire. We then mail you a confirmation and the slimmest of
descriptions about your character.  On Friday of the game, you
arrive at the hotel where we hand you a thick envelope containing
your character's description and situation, the rules, and random
possessions like money or tokens representing game items.  You then
have 48 hours to interact with your fellow players in the halls and
rooms of the hotel, resolving crises and cooperating, blackmailing,
trading, and generally living the story.  We easily write 300-400
pages of supporting material for each of the games (there are no
minor characters, all players are major protagonists), but how the
events resolve is left open to the creativity of the players.

The six games are
Rude Awakening: On a spaceship, the (a)crew (b)passengers (c)cargo
is restless.  See Jane Run: Within Jane's body, fight infections
with antibodies and skill.  Road to the Future: Time travelers have
problems with the space-time continuum.  Rule Psix: At the Psionic
Olympics, the athletes (and visitors) are preparing.  Shadows of
Sundown: After WWIII, it takes more than muscle to survive.
Twilight of the Gods: Based on Wagner's Ring Cycle, a world of Good
vs. Evil.

If you're interested, please reply soon, since the deadline is Feb.
21.  Please reply directly to me, since I'm not on SF-Lovers. I'd
also be interested in any comments you have.

Me:                        SIL:
Steve Strassmann           Society for Interactive Literature
3 Ames St.           [or]  130 Morrison Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02139        Somerville, MA 02144

Net: straz@media-lab.mit.edu
Phone: MIT dormline 6280 or (617) 577-1520

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: IN MEMORIUM
Date: 30 Jan 86 03:12:06 GMT

This was left on one of my FIDONET BBS in response to the request
for thoughts on the shuttle tragedy.

TO: Sysop on 109/74     From: Lloyd Schwartz
29 Jan 86  20:32:21
SUBJECT: Challenger Demise

For those who did not identify President Reagan's moving poetic
closing literary allusion, the following original text of the WWII
flier's piece will be appropriate:

        "Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
        And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
        Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
        Of sun-split clouds ... and done a hundred things
        You have not dreamed of ... wheeled and soared and swung
        High in sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
        I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
        My eager craft through footless halls of air ...
        Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
        I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace,
        Where never lark, or even eagle flew ...
        And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
        The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
        Put out my hand and touched the face of God."

What could be a better tribute, and memorial, to those who died in
Space?

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Space Shuttle Children's Fund
Date: 30 Jan 86 14:34:46 GMT

A trust fund has been established by the American Security Bank in
Washington DC.  The funds gathered are to be used to provide
financial assistance to the children of the 7 astronauts killed in
the explosion of the space shuttle.

For additional information, you can call

        1-800-462-7878

Checks can be sent to:

        Space Shuttle Children's Fund
        American Security Bank
        Box 0150
        Washington, DC 20055

Checks should be made out to:

        The Space Shuttle Children's Fund

The Dream is, and must remain, alive!

Kurt Reisler
..!seismo!hadron!klr

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Feb 86 0951-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 4 Feb 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Hubbard & McCaffrey &
                  Wolfe & Zahn & Recommendations (2 msgs),
          Films - Runaway & Nightfall,
          Radio - Dr. Who,
          Miscellaneous - Hardbound Library & Challenger &
                  Boskone Query

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 86 05:25 CST
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: Piers Anthony Does it Again!

FLAME ON

Well, he's done it again.  _Crewel Lye_ was not the last of the
Xanth books.  I just saw another, this one about Grundy the Golem.
Now I enjoyed the first book as much as anyone.  The puns were
interesting and the overall effect was cute, but come now, there
should be a limit to the number of times a gag like that can be
used.

FLAME OFF


Steve
DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 1986 10:11:57-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Piers Anthony/Xanth

> The quality of Xanth books has steadily been declining.  Anthony
> gives partial credit to his fans and his new word processor for
> this one, and I have to say that it shows those two as faults.

I find it amusing that Anthony now uses a word processor.  In the
author's notes at the back of "On A Pale Horse" (the strangest
author's notes I've ever read, by the way), he mentions his disdain
for technology, preferring to write in a shed using an old
typewriter.  Something gave me the impression that he used a bare
incandescent bulb for lighting, but it's been a long time since I've
read that book, and I could be wrong.  I remember thinking, "What a
strange attitude for a supposed science fiction writer to have..."

I agree with the Xanth assessment, by the way.  After "Dragon On A
Pedestal", I decided I couldn't stomach any more - a pity, since I
liked the first few Xanth books.

Brian Clapper
clapper@NADC.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 11:40:34 EST
From: Will Martin <wmartin@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard dies

From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Tuesday, 26 Jan. '86:

Los Angeles (AP) -- L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer who
founded the controversial Church of Scientology three decades ago,
has died, the church announced Monday night. He was 74.

Hubbard, who was last seen in public in 1980, died Friday of a
stroke at his ranch near San Luis Obispo, 150 miles northwest of
downtown Los Angeles, said the Rev. Heber Jentzch, president of the
Church of Scientology International.

Hubbard did not control the church and its corporations for the past
few years, said Jentzch.

Hubbard's ashes were scattered at sea, said Earle Cooley, the
church's chief counsel.

Hubbard left most of his estate to Scientology, Cooley said.

"L. Ron Hubbard, after making very generous provision for his
surviving wife and certain of his children, has left the entire
balance of his estate, which is very substantial, to Scientology,"
Cooley said.

Hubbard and his third and surviving wife, Mary Sue Hubbard, founded
the church in 1954. He laid out the Scientology doctrine in
"Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health," a book that has
sold millions of copies.

The wealthy church has battled the Internal Revenue Service and has
fought suits filed by former members. The church has claimed up to 6
million members worldwide since the height of the movement in the
1970's. Defectors, however, have put the number at closer to 2
million.  *** End of article***

Well, I think THIS gives lots of food for speculation. He died and
was cremated and the ashes scattered, hmmmm... Well, those that have
claimed tht he has been dead for some time can use THAT as start for
discussion!  Also, he left bequests to "CERTAIN of his children".
Again, sounds like the makings of a fairly bitter internecine
quarrel...

Regards, Will

------------------------------

Date: Sat 1 Feb 86 11:42:57-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: post-WHITE DRAGON era

     I dispute the comment about F'lar being about 60 at the end of
THE WHITE DRAGON.  If F'lar was 19 when R'gul took over, then
R'gul's decade as Weyrleader plus Jaxom's age would make F'lar in
his late 40's or early 50's.  However, that is certainly old enough
to make it unlikely that he would see the end of Threadfall, 30+
years hence.  Robinton would probably be about 70, since his father
was 90ish when he died at Half Circle Sea Hold a few years earlier.

     I doubt that McCaffrey will write a post-WHITE DRAGON story,
but here are some of my predictions: they will rediscover the
telephone (a primitive version already existed for short distances)
but not flight.  The dragonriders will diverge into transportation,
at rather stiff fares to make up for the inevitable lost tithings.
Mirrim will not be the last female greenrider; the percentage of
woman greenriders will continue to increase until women became the
majority.  Increasingly, there will be discrimination and oppression
against male greenriders, only hinted at in the Dragonrider series.
Sebell will be MasterHarper, and Mennoly a master, something will
continue to raise opposition.

     However, in general, there won't be much to write about.
Pernese future looks fairly well-established, after millenia of
stagnation.

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 31 Jan 86 02:03:00 GMT

We are asked:

> If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is
> trying to do with this work, it might help.
> hplabs!analog!kim

What Wolfe is trying to do is raise science fiction to a higher
degree of literary value than has EVER EXISTED, beyond question.  I
have read a hell of a lot of SF and a hell of a lot more `serious'
fiction than that (I'm an MA in literature/writing), and all I can
tell you, though the Book Of The New Sun is too long and complex for
your question to be answerable outside of an extended thesis (shit,
I won't pretend I really understand the damn books - they defy
that), is that if you are not blown away by now, at the end of the
The_Claw_Of_The_Conciliator, if you are not shaking your head at
Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling imagination, his miraculously
skilled prose - well, man, go back to clowns like Heinlein and
Asimov.

Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the
science fiction genre.  His prose, his ideas - all of it.  The best.
Hands down.

Michael Krantz

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 86 12:55:02 PST (Saturday)
Subject: "Cobra Strike" by Timothy Zahn
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM

     Cobra Strike takes place about thirty years after "Cobra".  Our
hero Jonny Moreau from "Cobra" is still part of the plot but no
shares the spotlight with his sons.  The cover mentions that the
Troft, the aliens, want to hire some cobras as mercenaries.  And the
plot is in response to this.  It is a good story.  Enjoyed every
page.  The plot moves along very well.  Zahn has done a good job of
writing a sequel.  If you like "Cobra" I think you'll enjoy "Cobra
Strike"

Henry III

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: Request from an SF Diletante
Date: 2 Feb 86 08:23:01 GMT

guy@slu70.UUCP (Guy M. Smith) writes:
>jsq@im4u.UUCP (John Quarterman) writes:
>> For Arthur Clarke, try The City and the Stars.
>Wasn't this by James Blish. I'm thinking of the series about the
>Okie cities. It's worth reading in any case.

No.  The Blish series is called Cities in Flight.  I've read it
several times.  I still remember the First Freedom: the Freedom to
Hate.  Hardly the best freedom, but it made me think, at least.

The City and the Stars is about something else altogether.  And
something different than most Clarke stories.  Which is why it is so
good.  If you want something like most Clarke stories which is still
good, try the short story ``The Nine Billion Names of God''.

>Another favorite of mine is "City" written by (I think) Clifford
>Simak.

Yes.  It was Simak.  I never particularly cared for it (talking dogs
appeal to me no more than talking cats).  However, he recently
(within five years) wrote what I consider absolutely the best story
about immortality ever penned.  I don't remember the title ("Ancient
of Days"?)  but it was about a man who had survived for something
like ten thousand years and how he managed it.  The methods were not
those of Lazarus Long (which character I like for other reasons).

The second best story abouut immortality is the novel by Poul
Anderson about (albeit indirectly) Mary O'Meara.  I can never
remember the title.  I can never forget the story.

Does anyone remember Cordwainer Smith?  If not, you should....

And Jack Vance.

And of course Gene Wolfe.  People have extolled the virtues of The
Book of the New Sun (deservedly) but does no one remember The Fifth
Head of Cerberus?

As far as classics, if ``The Ugly Chickens'' by Howard Waldrop
doesn't make it into any book of Classics of 80s SF, it's a shame.

John Quarterman
UUCP:  {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86  9:50:42 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
Subject: Book Recommendations

Thanks to all who responded directly or indirectly to my query about
Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA.  By that point, I was already
halfway into a copy.  I wish to confirm, in my opinion, the book is
a "good read."  After reading [pause to don HEFLMP garb] ROBOTS &
EMPIRE, and CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, it was gratifying to read
a book by an author I've enjoyed for ~ two decades and have it be
'up to par.'  Dickson is a good writer - competent enough that he
doesn't intrude.  It was clear from the beginning that he knew in
advance where the book was going, and by what route.  And at the
end, he had indeed gotten there.  It doesn't hurt to have read the
preceding books; it certainly gives more context to the events.
Again: a good read.

And here's a new recommendation for a not new book: SS-BG, by Len
Deighton.  Deighton is viewed as a suspense/intrigue writer, author
of FUNERAL IN BERLIN and all sorts of other neat books.  This one is
SF a la Phillip Dick's MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE -- a parallel world.
Here, England surrendered to Germany early during World War II.  The
book takes place in the early 1940s.  It's reasonably complex.  Like
many murder mysteries, it doesn't untangle until the very end.
Books like this are a good example of why many people DON'T like SF,
in a way -- this one is well written, well paced, with good
characters, etc.  It is lightyears ahead of most sf in terms of
quality.  Sure, it's hard to write good sf.  It's also easy to write
bad sf.  Whether it's the genre, the tradition, or the readership,
the suspense & intrigue books are on the average better than average
sf, or certainly more competent, or whatever the metric is.  Or else
I've only been reading the better ones of this sibling ghetto/genre.

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 09:41 EST
From: Richard Pavelle <RP@CUPID.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Runaway

There is a 1984 SF film called Runaway with Tom Selleck on cable
this month. I found it quite enjoyable and wonder whether it ever
made it into the cinemas. I do not remember it. Does anyone recall
whether it did?

A related question: It often seems that good movies appear on cable
that have never played in the cinemas.  How does this happen?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Feb 86 17:16 PST
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Nightfall scheduled for film

According to the Jan 31 issue of Daily Variety, Julie Corman, wife
of Roger Corman, will produce "Nightfall" from the Isaac Asimov
short story.  The film is scheduled for a Fall start.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 15:04:02 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who radio

Re the reference to the BBC radio version of Dr. Who (SFL #24): I've
been listening to the Dr. Who serial that has been being aired on
BBC shortwave for a few weeks, and I can only say that, so far, it's
been awful.  It is Baker with Peri, and all it seems to be is a
silly computer straight out of "Hitchhiker" (similar voice, but
feminine, to "Larry the shipboard computer" from HGttG), and a lot
of screaming. They seem to have spent the first three episodes
running from some indescribable horror lurking in the airshafts of
some spaceship. No particular plot has yet emerged.

Part of the problem is that the BBC is airing this in 7 or
8-minute-long segments, far too short. I had expected 15-minute
segments, and was astounded when the first one ended at what would
have been the halfway point. Though, if they were not going to do
anything any better than this has been, maybe I should be happy that
they are short! :-)

Anyway, if you have a shortwave radio, and want to catch the last
one or so of these (by the time you read this, there will probably
be only one left to go), try tuning on 9510 kHz or 5975 kHz at 0445
GMT Mondays.  (That's 10:45 PM CST Sunday nights.) Ironically, this
is on at the same time my local PBS station shows Dr. Who TV
programs!

One other comment: A BBC publicity photo for this series, reproduced
in at least one of the shortwave-listener magazines, shows Peri in a
very sexually suggestive pose with Baker, with her clutching him
from the side and with her thigh lifted up and grinding into his
groin. Seemed entirely improper for Dr. Who to imply that he has a
sexual relationship with his companions. Is *that* how the later TV
series portrays it? (I haven't seen anything later than the first
episode with Peri.)

Will

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28 Jan 1986 20:07:47-PST
From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste Wood)
Subject: hardbound library

I received a solicitation in USnail today.  It is from Easton Press.
It is for a library of "Masterpeices of Science Fiction".  These
books sound pretty nice but since I'm not much in collecting
hardbound books I was wondering if anyone could tell me if I am
better off getting regular hardbound books.

The offer is $32.00 plus $2.50 shipping and handling will get me one
book per month bound in leather with 22Kt gold accents.  Asimov,
Bradbury, and Herbert will autograph their volumes.  The titles
sound pretty much like a classic SF library.  I have read all the
books they list.

Can anyone tell me if this kind of library is worthwhile from a
collectors point of view or just for my own private satisfaction
that I finally own these great tomes in a proper binding.

I never really justified the cost of hardbound books, especially in
an age where a printing of a book contains zillions of copies.  I
have about a hundred 'favorite' stories which I keep on a special
shelf, but they are all paperback.  These favorites are not
necessarily considered classics, and there are some classics which I
do not really care to own.

Celeste Wood            ARPA: wood%nermal@decwrl.dec

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Feb 86 07:12:13-CST
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #28

Re: Challenger Eulogy Message from Reisler/Schwartz-
The Poem is High Flight by John Gillespie McGee; it is known and
loved by all pilots who fling their dreams through the skies; Having
once been in nominal control of one's destiny among the clouds,
there is no better way to go than there again, already half-way to
God.  R.I.P. Challenger 7.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 11:01:58 est
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>

Is anybody having an sf-lovers party at Boskone this year?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Feb 86 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Feb 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:

      Books - Dickson & Hubbard & Robinson & Wolfe (2 msgs) &
              Author Identification & Mission Earth &
              The Flying Sorcerors,
      Films - Runaway,
      Miscellaneous - Character Expansion & "High Flight" &
              Boskone XXXIII (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: scifi@ukc.ac.uk (I.L.Sewell)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations
Date: 4 Feb 86 18:07:30 GMT

>From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
>Thanks to all who responded directly or indirectly to my query
>about Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA.  By that point, I was
>already halfway into a copy.  I wish to confirm, in my opinion, the
>book is a "good read."  After reading [pause to don HEFLMP garb]
>ROBOTS & EMPIRE, and CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, it was
>gratifying to read a book by an author I've enjoyed for ~ two
>decades and have it be 'up to par.'  Dickson is a good writer -
>competant enough that he doesn't intrude.  It was clear from the
>beginning that he knew in advance where the book was going, and by
>what route.  And at the end, he had indeed gotten there.  It
>doesn't hurt to have read the preceeding books; it certainly gives
>more context to the events.  Again: a good read.

The book may be a good read but in my opinion you read 500+ pages to
get ..well nowhere really. I agree Dickson is a good writer I
wouldn't have the book otherwise, and he keeps you hooked right to
the end where the book falls flat on its face. Okay there is nothing
wrong with the end but as the culmination of a twelve(?) volume saga
and 500+ pages you expect a bit of a climax. In fact the book is
such written that a climax is really expected, okay not a galactic
war but al least a confrontation with an ending and not the 'okay
you've beaten me at the moment but I'll get back at you sometime '
we were given. This really spoiled the whole book for me.
 Okay now you can flame!

Ian Sewell

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 86 12:06 PST
From: Dave Dyer <ddyer@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA>
Subject: Farewell to Elron

>From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
>The church of scientology announced monday (27-jan) night.  he was
>74.  So much for the decology.

Don't be too sure.  Being dead hardly slows some authors at all,
thought usually does affect their quality.  Look at Hemmingway!

------------------------------

Subject: Robinson quiz
Date: 04 Feb 86 17:17:25 PST (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

   This message is to the quiz asking person, 'cuz my mailer is
having trouble finding his site.  I've got the answers to the
questions, but you all will have to take my word for it; I'm not
gonna put the answers on the bboard.  I've got more of the same,
however.  Sure, Night of Power had some connections with other
stories.  So did Mindkiller.
   So name the connections in that book, and then tell me what
Robinson story Night of Power just might be a prequel to.
   I'll post summations of my replies to the net.

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irvine
(godwin@icse.uci.edu)

------------------------------

From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 5 Feb 86 07:59:42 GMT

The Book of the New Sun is in some ways a difficult work.  If you
don't like it, then by all means read something you will like better.
However, since the question was why others like it...

First, ignore the person who said the world is unique.  Wrong.  Jack
Vance used it frequently, though Wolfe's variation incorporates some
Cordwainer Smith as well (you know, when he says "Atomic Age" and it
*really* sounds like "Bronze Age").  Nonetheless, it is fascinating
to modern people to explore a perspective from which we are not only
relegated to a historical junkpile, but completely forgotten and
proven to have no significance whatsoever in the overall history of
the world.

The prose is stunningly crafted.  That in itself is not enough to
make a book enjoyable -- see William Gibson, who people will get
sick of long before 1988.  Nonetheless, at this level it is the best
science fiction ever: it almost attains the stature of an epic poem.

Related to thhe quality of the prose is the quality of the imagery,
which is peculiarly evocative.  All the grains and colors of a Wolfe
scene leap out with all the attribnutes of a vivid three-dimensional
perception remembered from childhood.  This is done without long,
tedious description or focusing on surface features.

The plots are what really make the series.  For some reason I have
yet to figure out, the characters and events really get into my
brain and reconfigure it into an Escher lithograph.  Their raw
potency defies description or summary.  If these are not moving you,
I don't know what to tell you.  Do they seem arbitrary?  Pointless?
Then you and I have different worlds, or at least different ways of
reading.

I hope this helps.  Try to read the Book as if it were an epic poem
in blank verse, and you may come to appreciate it more.

Tim Maroney
{sun,dual,well,ihnp4,frog}!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 12:06:11-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Wolfe the best?

Well, Wolfe is obviously a great novelist, and the New Sun is
undoubtedly the apex of his work so far (Free Live Free was fun, but
not great), but I don't think that he is "hands-down" the best sf
novelist. The New Sun supernovel had some flaws (though the work is
so intricate it is very hard to tell whether something is a bug or a
feature), and I didn't think all that much of The Island of Dr.
Death and Other Stories and Other Stories (admittedly because I
didn't understand much of it). Basically, I don't think that Wolfe
has produced enough to make him the Best of the Best--The Book of
the New Sun is a tour-de-force until he produces more novels of the
same stature.

Laurence
(back on the net after 9 months...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86  9:47:15 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
Subject: Tentative Author Identification

Regarding the query about a story labelled "This is the middle of
the story...This is the end...This is the beginning."  It sure feels
like Cordwainer Smith.  Unless it's Samuel Delany's EMPIRE STAR.
And I have this nagging feeling of some other story I can't quite
place, which ends something like "Beginnings are easy...".  Good
question.

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

From: berman@isi-vaxa.ARPA (Richard Berman)
Date: 3 Feb 1986 0957-PST (Monday)
Subject: MISSION EARTH

 Re: The Decalogy...In the intro the author states that all ten
volumes have already been completed.  I imagine that they are
undergoing production.  The second one is supposed to be out soon.

Richard

------------------------------

From: bu-cs!awc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Cannon)
Subject: Sorcerors - "As a Color, Shade of Purple-Gray"
Date: 4 Feb 86 23:53:47 GMT

I never noticed anyone mentioning who "As a Color, Shade of
Purple-Gray" was supposed to be; if it *has* been beaten to death,
please excuse.

I had no idea about 90% of the other names, because I've been out of
the fan circuit for quite a while (and was never very deep into it),
but this one kept nagging me, until I realized who it was. To get
it, you just have to know where to put the parens:

      (As a) (Color, Shade of Purple-Gray)
       Asi - Mauve

       ASIMOV!

Like I said above, *please* don't berate me if everyone already knew
it because it was so obvious...

Alex Cannon
Boston University
Academic Computing Center

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 01:14:41 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: "Runaway" and unreleased films

>There is a 1984 SF film called Runaway with Tom Selleck on cable
>this month. I found it quite enjoyable and wonder whether it ever
>made it into the cinemas. I do not remember it. Does anyone recall
>whether it did?

>A related question: It often seems that good movies appear on cable
>that have never played in the cinemas.  How does this happen?

"Runaway" was released in the Christmas season of 1984.  That
Christmas was a phenomenally busy one for films (but not, alas, for
good films).  You probably missed "Runaway" in the confusion.  Or,
if you don't live in a fairly large city, "Runaway's" poor to
mediocre revenues may have convinced the distributor not to show it
elsewhere.

There are a variety of reasons good films don't reach the theaters.
Probably the most common is that the film is not considered
marketable.  Even after a film has been shot and edited, there are
still many costs associated.  Nowadays, it costs millions to
advertise a film.  If the studio has little confidence in a film,
they may well just swallow their loss and not throw what would be,
in their opinion, good money after bad.  This is especially likely
if the film only cost a couple million (or less) to shoot.  I've
seen several pretty good films at film festivals or previews which
were never released, usually for this reason.  (On the other hand,
if the film cost $20 million to make, it *will* be released, no
matter how bad.  Spending two million in the hopes of recovering $10
million or so on the turkey is a rather different proposition than
gambling more than the cost of the print.)

Some films are independently made and never find a distributor.  The
owners of the film then make what they can by selling it to cable
and videocassette.  Other films had test engagements in a few cities
and flopped, and are then sent out to video pasture.  Some films are
really terrible, and could not make a nickle in the theaters.  Even
these have a marginal value on TV.  Once in a while, legal problems
keep a film out of theaters.

I find the growth of cable and videocassettes heartening, in this
respect if not others.  Many films which would otherwise disappear
and gather dust on studio shelves now are released to cable.  I get
to see films I wouldn't see otherwise.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 10:44 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Character Expansion
To: G.GREIG@SU-SCORE.ARPA

Some examples of reasonable character development :
   The War of the Wizards trilogy by Andrew Offut
   (The Demon in the Mirror, The Eyes of Sarsis, and )
       Tiana Highrider starts pretty capable but doesn't exceed
       reasonableness.
   The Book of Morgaine trilogy by C.J.Cherryh
       Morgaine starts out being thought of as a goddess/demoness,
       but as the books progess, you know her to be more and more
       human.
   The Oath of the Renunciates trilogy by Marion Zimmer Bradley
   (The Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of Sorcery)
       Magda Lorne continues to be a realistic character.
   The Stainless Steel Rat books by Harry Harrison
       Jim deGriz was always better than the rest, that's why he's a
       criminal.
   The Camber Trilogy by Katherine Kurtz
       Camber was quite human, but became a saint because of popular
       legend and circumstance.
   The Deryni Trilogy by Katherine Kurtz
       Kelson learns to use magic, but as part of normal
       development.
   The Wrinkle in Time, etc. books by Madeline L'Engle
       Charles Wallace Murry who appears in all of these books,
       does not exceed himself.
   The Taran books by Lloyd Alexander
       Taran grows as a person, within reasonable limits.
   Gateway, etc.  by Fredrik Pohl
       Broadhead is always the insecure, neurotic he starts as, he
       just has more money.
   The Tomoe Gozen series by Salmonson
       I haven't read the third book, but Tomoe Gozen stays the
       Samurai warrior throughout.
   Jhereg, Yendi by Steve Brust
       (Damn, I can't remember his name) Main character keeps pretty
       much the same throughout.
   The Amber Series by Roger Zelazny
       Well, yes. Corwin starts pretty seemingly human, and becomes
       god-like in the first book, but he really was that way all
       along. And if you ignore a few exceptional talents that most
       of the other characters have anyway, he remains pretty much
       the same.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 86 21:35 EST
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: "High Flight"

A previous message quoted in full the poem alluded to by Pres.
Reagan in his eulogy to the Challenger crew.  The title of the poem
is "High Flight" and it was written by John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
Magee was born in Shanghai of missionary parents and educated at
Rugby, England and Yale.  At the beginning of WWII he dropped out of
Yale to enlist in the Royal Canadian Air Force.  "High Flight" was
written hastily on the back of a letter to his parents, after a
particularly exhilarating training flight.  He was commissioned a
Pilot Officer (the RCAF equivalent of a 2LT) at the flying training
school at Uplands, near Ottowa, in June of 1941.  He was killed in
action in England in December of that year, aged nineteen years and
a few months.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 02:52:07 est
From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
Subject: SF Lovers @ Boskone

In response to a query about an SF-LOVERS party at Boskone:

On Saturday night, at 8PM (I'm 99% sure about this, check your
pocket program), there will be a panel discussion titled "Electronic
Fanac", moderated by your humble narrator. Among those on the panel
will be Diane Duane, writer and sysop of the Compuserve SF SIG; and
Saul Jaffe, moderator of SF-LOVERS. If a group of SF-LOVERS wanted
to retire to a private room for a party after the panel, I certainly
wouldn't throw my body in the way. Unfortunately, due to committee
commitments (is this redundant?), I will not be able to host such a
party. Volunteers?

James Turner
ARPA  ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
      decvax  \
      sri-unix \
UUCP            !cca!ringwld!jmturn
      ima      /
      linus   /
MAIL  329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

[Moderator's Note: The panel will be at the stated time and I will
be there.  If any of you would like to meet/talk to me, this is a
good time to catch me.  I know I'd like to meet as many of you as
possible so try and be there.]

------------------------------

Subject: BOSKONE 23 and the Annual Boxboro Fandom Party
Date: 05 Feb 86 09:29:59 EST (Wed)
From: Bill Dowling <wad@mitre-bedford.ARPA>

            SECRETS OF THE LOST TEMPLE OF BOXBORO FANDOM

   You are invited to attend an open party on Saturday, February 15,
1986 at 9:00pm at the Boston-Sheraton Hotel.  The party is being
held during Boskone 23, Boston's annual science fiction convention.
Beer and munchies will be provided but feel free to contribute by
bringing something.  Smoking and non-smoking rooms will be provided
as well.

   At last years party, you helped to explore the bottom of the sea.
This year, you can seek out the secret of our lost temple.  But
where to look?  No quest is easy, but the rewards can be great.
Think about where to find information at Boskone 23, and start your
journey there.

   Boxboro Fandom is a small group of people who enjoy going to
conventions and throwing largish parties.  We've been doing this for
about six years now, with indications that it will go on forever.
Come and join this year's party and help make it better than all the
past ones!

------------------------------

Date: Thu 06 Feb 1986 13:33:22 EDT
From: <SORCEROR@LL.ARPA>
Subject: Neo-Pagan Events at Boskone

Rumor has it that Boskone will host several events concerning
Neo-Paganism.  Does anyone know anything specific?  The MIT Pagan
Students Group would very much appreciate having some knowledge in
advance.  We ourselves hope to organize an informal ritual and/or
pagan interest group.  Suggestions and offers of help will be
welcome...  Please reply to SORCEROR at LL.ARPA or
ZVONA%AI.AI.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU, not SF-LOVERS.  Thanks.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Feb 86 0955-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Feb 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:

          Books - Dickson & Martin & McCaffrey (4 msgs) &
                  Varley & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Book Request Answered &
                  Hardbound Library,
          Films - Runaway (4 msgs),
          Radio - Dr. Who,
          Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel)
Subject: Dickson's The Final Encyclopedia
Date: 5 Feb 86 23:02:56 GMT

I had heard originally that tFE was to be the climax, but since it's
come out I've heard different.  Supposedly, before Dickson starts
writing the historical and contemporary novels, he's planning on
writing two more books set in the future.  They are called Chantry
Guild and Childe.

My guess is that Chantry Guild is going to be set just after the
ending of Necromancer, and cover the evolution of the destruction
oriented Chantry Guild into the Exotics.  I've been wanting more on
the Exotics, since I find them a much more interesting culture than
either the Dorsai or the Friendlies.

Childe, I would guess would be the culmination of the series
(especially since its called The Childe Cycle).  Hopefully, that
will have in it both the final battle between Hal and Bleys, as well
as what I was expecting to be in tFE, i.e. the merging together of
the Splinter Culture mentalities to form a new and improved form of
human being.

Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept.
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)    israel@Maryland (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Subject: George R.R. Martin
Date: 06 Feb 86 16:43:36 PST (Thu)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        Those of us familiar with Analog will remember the stories
about Haviland Tuf, and his EEC Seedship Ark.  ( I think it was
George R.R. martin who wrote these ).  I can remember five or six of
these stories over the last several years, three of them in recent
issues of Analog.
        My question is this: Has there yet been a story on how Tuf
and his companions ( now all deceased, I believe ) found the
derelict Ark in the first place ?

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 11:06:36-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: New McCaffrey

From Publishers Weekly,  Jan 31, 1986  page 366

Nerilka's Story:  A Pern Adventure    Anne McCaffrey, illustrated by
   Edwin Herder   Ballentine/Del Rey  12.95  March 21

The latest of McCaffrey's romantic Pern novels expands on the tale
of a minor character in Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern.  Young Merilka
is considered unattractive and overly serious in her own hold, where
her preemptory father installs his mistress immediately after his
wife's death.  Angry and frustrated, Nerilka uses her medical
training and her access to the supplies her father is hoarding to
help combat the plague sweeping Pern, which has already claimed her
mother and sisters.  Inevitably, her work with the Healers leads her
to Ruatha Hold, whose rugged widower chief, Lord Alessan, sees her
worth and marries her.  In form, this is basically a Victorian
gothic in which a governess tames and marries the gruff master of
the house.  As such, McCaffrey's legions of fans should enjoy it,
but it is a weak entry in the Pern saga.

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Re: McCaffrey's Pern series ( maybe spoiler )
Date: 5 Feb 86 23:26:13 GMT

mpm@hpfcla.UUCP writes:
>      It does look like Menolly is developing some of the political
> skill necessary in the role of Master Harper.  It wouldn't be a
> surprise to me if McCaffrey promoted her in a future book.  (I
> suspect she might introduce some nasty turn of events just to
> shake us out of our complacency - just like the return of
> Threadfall does to the holders.)

     Probably only if some nasty event shakes her out of HER
complacency - it's amazing how well money will dull a writer's
sensibilities.  I felt the first book, and about half of the second,
were excellent.  Good stories, good characters, you name it.  The
rest of the books are entertaining, but I don't think they're
excellent any more - just entertaining.  Nothing wrong with that,
but excellence is so rare, I hate to see it go...

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 86 18:12 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: New Pern Novel

A new Pern novel, NERILKA'S STORY, is scheduled to be released on
March 21 in hardcover from Del Rey.  It's much shorter than her
recent ones, only 208 pages, and is illustrated by Edwin Herder.

                    ***** SPOILER WARNING *****

Nerilka was in MORETA; she's one of the daughters of the lord of
Fort Hold.  The review in Publisher's Weekly is not very
complimentary, and ends: "In form, this is basically a Victorian
gothic in which a governess tames and marries the gruff master of
the house.  As such, McCaffrey's legions of fans should enjoy it,
but it is a weak entry in the Pern saga.

                      ***** END SPOILER *****

I think I'll wait for the paperback.  I'm curious to see if the book
is an expansion of the background at the time of MORETA the way
DRAGONSONG and DRAGONSINGER were for DRAGONQUEST, giving a second
look at the events in the previously published volume, but not that
curious, unless it turns out that PW has missed the boat entirely.
They've missed the boat badly before, but their description cuts
rather close to the bone, so I suspect they may have been accurate
this time.

Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: New McCaffrey
Date: 8 Feb 86 08:53:09 GMT

    Prospective buyers should be warned that this is basically a
novella published with hard covers (and small hard covers at that -
the book is somewhere between the size of a paperback and a "normal"
hardcover).  Seems to me that $12.95 is a little steep...

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Subject: Demon remaindered
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 86 16:04:14 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>

Does this surprise anyone?  In my local bookstore they have some
remaindered copies of John Varley's DEMON for $7.  Since this was
(apparently) a pretty limited press run (the hard back), I was
really surprised when I saw them (perhaps a dozen copies before I
bought two).  It's a mall-store, but not part of a chain.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 15:58:42 PST
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Gene Wolfe small press books

all my letters to Laurence Roberts bounced ........

Castle of the Otter first showed up as a reviewers goof -- he
thought that the fourth book of the book of the New Sun was so
titled. Wolfe then wrote it anyway -- the subtitle is 'a book about
the Book of the New Sun'. It contains essays, history, some
background, and even one chapter where all the main characters (who
were willing) stand up and tell a joke. If you liked Book of the New
Sun, you'll probably enjoy it. It's available from the Science
Fiction Book Club.

Plan[e]t Engineering is NOT reprints from Plant Engineering (by the
way, Wolfe is now writing full time .) It was published by NESFA
press, and may still be available from them. It commemorates Wolfes
appearence as Boscone XXI GoH.  The stories , articles and poems
were chosen by a jury of NESFA members.  It includes 'Books in the
Book of the New Sun' and 'The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps'
as well as stories and , oh yes, one article from Plant Engineering
on 'The Anatomy of a Robot' . I enjoyed the collection. If you too
enjoy Wolfe, I can reasonably safely say you will too. Good luck
getting ahold of it.

I read the Ziesing edition of Free Live Free and liked it. If such
things bother you, it's really only borderline sf. I haven't read
the Tor edition, but A Change of Hobbit has it as does Mark Ziesing
Booksellers (P.O.Box 806 Willimantic CT. 06226).

Enjoy,
Linda Wald (math.linda@ucla.locus.arpa)

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 4 Feb 86 15:32:00 GMT

I will straddle the fence (and probably incur anatomical
difficulties as a result).  The first two quotes above I agree with,
though I do not associate myself with some of the snotty tone in the
sections I deleted.

As to the third quote, while I find it arguable, it *is* arguable,
e.g., can't be dismissed out of hand.  The Book of the New Sun is
not for plot readers.  Wolfe's use of plot is almost completely
centered on progressive revelation and illumination of character,
that kernel of all good fiction.

TBOTNS is one definition by example of tour de force.  He is using
SF convention and imagery combined with classical literary technique
to portray the life, conflicts, and character development of a
fascinating individual in a fascinating world.

TBOTNS is written with and to a different sensibility than most SF,
and like all literature, you must accept it on its own terms if it
is going to "work" for you.  If you don't, or for whatever reason
can't, such is life.  Remember, concerning matters of taste, there
is no disputing.  (An aphorism that antedates my birth by a good
couple of millenia.)

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780B
hao/ico/ism780B

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 6 Feb 86 15:12:00 GMT

Thought I'd jump back in again.  Jim Gardner's response (jagardner @
watmath) is excellent.  I wish *I* had written it and I second
practically everything he said -- didn't see anything I wouldn't
wholeheartedly agree with on one read/think.  Thanks, Jim.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780B
hao/ico/ism780B

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 1986 11:42-EST
From: Joseph.Ginder@SPICE.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: Caradoc book request; books on tape

I have not read it, but I believe that the title of the book
described whose main character's name is Caradoc is "The Eagle and
the Raven".  It is by Pauline Gedge.  I just saw it advertised in a
bulletin from Books on Tape.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 1986 06:38-PST
Subject: Re: Hardbound Library
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

Supply and demand determines the value of books as it does the value
of anything else we buy.  Unless you want a bunch of pretty books to
line the walls and unless you really want the xxx number of books in
the set, don't buy any pre-packaged series of books.  If you really
decide to consider buying the set, make sure that you get a list of
titles in the set and see if you can buy each volume one at a time
with the right to cancel the remaining volumes at any time.

You are better off collecting a particular author, series that you
like, subjector small press books.  Small press editions tend to
retain their value but even that can be risky when you consider what
happened to the Stephen King small press book.

Faye

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 10:44 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Missing movies...

Runaway was in the cinemas but didn't last long.  This is the case
with most movies you haven't seen.  Many flicks get a very limited
release and then vanish, only to reappear on cable.  If you don't
live near a big city or a test market you might never see some
flicks until they hit cable.  At least they make it there...

It appears that Ridley Scott's _Legend_ has fallen into this
catagory.  Has anyone seen it?  I heard it was panned by the test
audiences, but I have loved the "feel" of every one of his movies
(The Duelists, Alien, & Bladerunner).

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 18:24:22-CST
From: Tim McGrath <CS.MCGRATH@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runaway

Sorry to bother the net, but I can't use the original sender's
address.

I wasn't enthusiatic about the film `Runaway' (I felt than the SF
was implausible and the plot ridiculous), but I believe that the
film was in the theatres around Christmas '84; it disappeared after
only a few weeks.

It's common for a movie not to go into general release. The studio
bean-counters cancel a movie's distribution when they feel that
promotion and release costs will be more than box-office income (ie,
they will lose less money by just sitting on the film).

Unfortunately, the `quality' of the film has nothing to do the
decision to release it. Terry Gilliam's `Brazil' very nearly met
this fate, except for some extraordinary measures taken by Gilliam.

It's cheaper to release the film through video cassettes and cable
than to release the film to theatres; studios try to recoup their
losses in these ways.

Tim McGrath [CSNet and ARPA: CS.MCGRATH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 13:38:11 est
From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-css.arpa>
Subject: Runaway

I don't remember Runaway being at the movies, but if you liked it
you may be glad to know that it's out in video.  I saw a VHS version
a couple of weeks ago and, like you, enjoyed it.

John

------------------------------

From: ritcv!ref0070@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Fortin)
Subject: Re: Runaway
Date: 7 Feb 86 17:39:21 GMT

Runaway did make to the cinema in the Albany, NY area. I just
recently saw it on HBO, and in my opinion it had a poor plot and was
completely unbelievable. The killer spider robots were particularly
stupid, and I think the movie would be better as an episode for
Super-friends or maybe even Voltron.  I don't think that this movie
has enough class to be considered Science fiction.  These are just
my opinions.

{allegra seiesmo ucbvax}!rochester!ritcv!ref0070

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 08:29 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Dr. Who Radio

A friend of mine from England sent me a tape of the Doctor Who radio
series, entitled "Slipback" I believe, and I quite enjoyed it.
Certainly, it was geared for a younger audience, and it gets rather
silly at times.  But, like Doctor Who in general, if you don't try
to take it too seriously, it's a lot of fun.

For me, the biggest problem with the radio series is Peri's voice.
She's always sounded like fingernails on a blackboard to me, but
it's far more easily tolerated when watching episodes than when just
sitting and listening to a tape.  I suppose the British don't notice
as all Americans sound that way to them!

I haven't seen of heard of the publicity photo Will mentions and
find it quite shocking.  I don't think the episodes with Peri imply
any sexual relation with the Doctor, although she's obviously there
as a sex object for the male audience, so I'm rather surprised that
the BBC would make such a photo.  Wasn't it they (or was it John
Nathan-Turner) who said, "No hanky-panky in the TARDIS"?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 08:34 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek

First of all, I'd like to correct a statement I'd made some issues
back.  All Star Trek episodes of the First Season HAVE been released
on video tape, including "Return of the Archons" and "Tommorrow is
Yesterday."  I or my video store or their supplier got some wires
crossed and I still have to try to find out what happened.

Secondly, I have just been appointed the Star Trek Welcommittee's
Personal Computer Consultant.  I don't suppose any of you need such
services, but if any of you would like to offer to be a consultant
for me on any particular brands of PCs or software, or would just
like to supply me with some info on how you use your PC in your
fannish activities, I would very much appreciate it.  Just message
me directly.

Lisa Wahl
Star Trek Welcommittee

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Feb 86 1018-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Feb 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:

        Books - Christopher & Forward & Herbert & Hubbard &
                Martin & McCaffrey & Resnick & Smith &
                Wolfe & Zahn & New Books &
                Store Address Request,
        Television - Dr. Who & Tripods,
        Miscellaneous - Worldcon Mailing Problems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: re: sf dilly
Date: 05 Feb 86 11:10:21 PST (Wed)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

   You said your son was fifteen years old ?  Try John Christopher's
'Tripods' trilogy, The White Mountains, The City of Gold and Lead,
and the other book I can't quite think of.  I read these at about
that age and enjoyed them quite a bit.

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: SETI vs. starflight
Date: 10 Feb 86 12:59:01 GMT

henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
>Robert Forward,who has studied the matter [starflight]
>professionally as a USAF consultant on advanced space propulsion,
>says that antimatter propulsion is within our reach with today's
>technology.

  I must confess to a very considerable lack of knowledge about star
travel.  But this posting brought to mind a book I read recently,
"The Flight of the Dragonfly" I think it was called. It was by
Robert Forward, and it featured aliens with vast mathematical
abilities. Apparantly, Forward had the idea when writing this book
that he knew something about mathematics, and nobody told him
differently. The result was my nomination for the funniest sf novel
since "The Butterfly Kid". Gag me with a functor! I thought I would
die laughing. Anyway, I was wondering, does someone out there know
enough about this to tell the rest of us if Forward is talking
through his hat again (it kind of sounds like it to me, but as I
say, I really don't know) or does he know what he is talking about
(this time).

>"Their" absence here is a considerable mystery, which has
>occasioned much debate in recent years, but the "extreme cost" of
>interstellar travel just does not suffice as an explanation.

  Maybe "they" are a long way away?

>"Antimatter rockets will take us to the stars.  *This is no longer
>science fiction*." -- Forward

  Thank God it's not science fiction -- that way it stands a chance
of being true. :-}

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

From: dcc1!bingaman@caip.rutgers.edu (George C. Bingaman)
Subject: The death of Frank Herbert
Date: 13 Feb 86 20:34:14 GMT

USA TODAY - 2/13/86

    "Frank Herbert, 65, died Tuesday afternoon of a blood clot in
    his lung at the University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics in
    Madison, where he had been undergoing treatment for pancreatic
    and liver cancer." ...

    "Herbert is survived by three children, Brian, Bruce and Penny,
    and his third wife, Theresa.  He had been married to the former
    Beverly Ann Stuart for 39 years, until her death [of cancer] in
    1984." [insert] mine.  ...

    "In accordance with his wishes, Herbert will be cremated and the
    family will hold private services.  They suggest any donations
    be sent to the Frank Herbert Cancer Research Fund at the
    Wisconsin Foundation of the University of Wisconson Center,
    Madison., Wis. 53792
      Herbert's last works are a screenplay based on his 'The
    Santaroga Barrier' (1968) and a science fiction novel, 'Man of
    Two Worlds', with eldest son, Brian, which will be published in
    May by Putnam."

Wouldn't it be nice if all of his fans, or at least all of the
regular readers of sf-lovers, sent ten dollars to the research fund?
The article said he has 15 million readers.  Maybe $150 million
would make a dent in cancer research.

George C. Bingaman
DeKalb Community College
2101 Womack Rd.
Dunwoody (Atlanta) Ga. 30338
{akgua,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!dcc1!bingaman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 86 18:01 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard's dekalogy

The dekalogy has apparently been finished for some time, and will be
released over the next two years.  The following is taken from an ad
in the January 31 issue of Publishers Weekly:

"... after its release on March 13th, BLACK GENESIS [Vol. II] will
be followed by a new volume of MISSION EARTH every other month
throughout 1986 and into 1987.  All 10 volumes of the dekalogy --
over 1,000,000 words of spell-binding adventure -- are now complete
and coming your way."

The ad goes on to claim that in three years, BATTLEFIELD EARTH and
THE INVADERS PLAN have grossed four million.  Shown, spine only, are
the remaining volumes of the dekalogy.  For those who are curious,
the titles are: THE ENEMY WITHIN, AN ALIEN AF9 FAIR, FORTUNE OF
FEAR, DEATH QUEST, VOYAGE OF VENGEANCE, DISASTER, VILLANY
VICTORIOUS, and THE DOOMED PLANET.

I would be unsurprised if the announcement of Hubbard's death, and
the inevitable court battle over the will, greatly increase sales of
the dekalogy.  It is a well known phenomenon that next to a
successful new work, nothing will increase sales on ones entire
oeuvre more than the creator's demise.  In fact, this phenomenon has
been used to good effect in many mysteries, where the artist/author
is either killed or fakes death.  Timing can be very effective in
this sort of thing.

I agree with Will Martin.  The next several months are going to be
very interesting.

Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 86 10:32 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

Yes.  I saw mention of a collection of all existing Haviland Tuf
stories in the latest issue of Locus.  They are in the process of
being released as a paperback collection, and the collection does
include the discovery of the Seedship Ark.  Check Locus for details;
the review includes the dates-of-original-publication of all of the
stories.

------------------------------

From: cc-30@cory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Anybody got any information on non-sf McCaffrey?
Date: 9 Feb 86 00:36:52 GMT

>From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
>From Publishers Weekly,  Jan 31, 1986  page 366
 (about Nerilka's Story)
>In form, this is basically a Victorian gothic in which a governess
>tames and marries the gruff master of the house.  As such,
>McCaffrey's legions of fans should enjoy it, but it is a weak entry
>in the Pern saga.

     I don't mind.  I fully enjoyed McCaffrey's "gothic" romance,
(Merlin something) about a girl in WWII falling in love with her
guardian/major.  Neat stuff.
     I know it's rather unlikely, but do any of you out there know
of any other non-sf/romance books by Anne McCaffrey (other than that
new one with the pink cover).  [sorry this rambles so, but I've been
sick] If you do, could you please mail, not post, as I'm sure most
people on this net really wouldn't want to know about it.  Thanks in
advance.

Kathy Li
ARPA:   cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:   ucbvax!cory!cc-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Feb 86 11:48:16-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Santiago, by Resnick

Santiago, a new release from Mike Resnick, is definitely the best of
his that I've read. It deals with the quest for the infamous
Santiago, a criminal whose exploits have so shocked the galaxy that
(I think), there are 11 bureaus of the galactic govrnment (the
DEMOCRACY, which says it all) whose sole duty is tracking him down.
Mainly the novel focuses on the efforts of Sebastian Nightingale
Cain, a bounty hunter, to cash in on the cr 20M reward -- as the old
line goes "Dead or Alive -- preferably dead!"

This is probably the best of Resnick's attempts to render the 19th
century American frontier milieu in an alien environment.
Unfortunately, reading about characters who ALL have nicknames (or
real names) like ManMountain Bates, Halfpenny Terwilliger, Songbird
Cain, et al. can grow kind of wearisome, but this is only a minor
annoyance. Actually, it probably says something that the only major
character who doesn't use a name like that is Santiago himself and
he --- well you'll have to read about it.

If you liked any of Resnick's previous books, then you'll certainly
like this one; if you didn't (like me), then you'll still probably
find Santiago very worthwhile.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11-FEB-1986 13:03 EST
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTVAX5.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: RE: Cordwainer Smith book...

The one with the "This is the middle, this is the beginning, etc."
in it is Norstrillia.  As I recall it was the only full length novel
Smith wrote, and was supposed to be the centerpiece for his stories
of the Instrumentality of Man.  I picked it up cold one day and read
it. Enjoyed it enough that I went out and got the rest of his
stories.

Ron

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (Spoilers possible)
Date: 9 Feb 86 03:40:11 GMT

I have read _The_Shadow_of_the_Torturer_, (first volume of
_The_Book_of_the_New_Sun), but in almost a year have yet to continue
with the rest of the book.  In general, I found the writing murky
and the tale rather disconnected.  I found that I learned very
little of the political system, social classes, economic systems or
even recent history.  This failure of Wolfe's to adequately inform
varies directly with my failure to be interested in his tale.

This seems to me to be particularly true in a story like this where
so many of the characters seem to be insane and therefore take
actions that appear illogical: Master Palaemon gives an extremely
valuable sword to a man who never seemed to interest him and who
ought to be sentenced to death.  Agia and Agilus are insanely
greedy, consider the bizarre excuses Agilus gives in the prison cell
when he argues to be spared.  The boatman is in a crazed state and
Dorcas suffers from amnesia.  The rationality of Dr. Talos,
Baldanders and the stuttering man seem questionable to me as well.

I understand that Wolfe wrote this book while employed at another
job and typically wrote during the early morning hours, shortly
after having awakened.  This probably accounts for the dreamlike
nature of the work, which many people seem to admire highly.  I am
less than enthusiastic about it; on the other hand, only reading the
first book is probably tantamount to turning off Beethoven's 5th
symphony in the middle of the second movement in terms of being fair
to the author's complete message...  But on the first hand, the
author has the responsibility to make the first story accessible
enough that the others will be read...  In time, I may re-read the
first book and give it another chance...

One thing that intrigues me is the theory that Severian has lived
this life before and that all the events depicted have been
experienced by Severian not once, but twice.  Anyone have any
thoughts or theories on this?  What made someone think of this
rather unique thought in the first place?  What evidence is there
for it?

rick heli
{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Feb 86 21:57:10-EST
From: "Jim McGrath" <MCGRATH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Cobra Strike

Cobra Strike, by Timothy Zahn, Baen, 1986, 344pp.

Someone already reviewed this book, so I will skip the plot details.
I generally like Zahn's work, but I thought this book was padded.
Cobra worked because Zahn was exploring many different facets of his
characters and their future society.  Cobra Strikes has simply too
little speculative material to justify its length.  Indeed, this
padding is what ultimately "justifies" a relatively high price of
$3.50.  I would rather have a tighter work at $2.95.  Nevertheless,
in this imperfect world I would recommend that you read it if you
like Zahn.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed 5 Feb 86 11:05:22-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: New books

Here are the Spring Hardcover / Trade announcements for Spring and
Summer

Tor:  In Alien Flesh       Gregory Benford    short stories
      Speaker for the Dead   Orson Scott Card Sequel to Ender's Game

Doubleday :
   A Darkness at Sethanon     Raymond E. Feist end of trilogy
   Quadriphobia     Alan Ryan  March
   The Hugo Winners vol 5     Isaac Asimov  ed  April
   The Bird of Time   George Alec Effinger   April
   Revenge of the Senior Citizens Plus   Kit Reed  April
   Trek to Kraggen-Cor  Dennis L. McKiernan   May
   The Brega Path         "    June
   The Tail of the Arabian Knight   Geoffrey Marsh   July
   Howard Who?      Howard Waldrop   July
   The Best Sf of I.A.     Isaac Asimov August
   The Best Mysteries of I.A.  "        August
   Star Country        Michael Cassutt  August

Arbor House:
   Burning Chrome      William Gibson   April
   Dorothea Dreams     Suzy McKee Charnas   April
   Only Apparently Real: World of PDK   Paul Williams  May
   The Wandering Fire: II   Guy Bavriel Kay  June
   Kiteworld      Keith Roberts   July

Ballantine
   The Yellow Knight of Oz      Ruth Plumly Thompson   July
   Pirates in Oz
   The Purple Prince of Oz

Bantam
   Heart of the Comet     Gregory Benford and David Brin (it is out!)

Del Rey
   Nerilka's Story        Anne McCaffrey   March
   Magic Kindom for Sale -- Sold!   Terry Brooks   April
   The Songs of Distant Earth    Arthur C. Clarke  May
   Highway of Eternity      Clifford D. Simak   June

Putnam
   Strangers    Dean R. Knoontz April
   Man of Two Worlds    Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert May
   The Touch     F. Paul Wilson  May

From Publishers Weekly,   Jan 31, 1986 issue

------------------------------

Subject: Other Change of Hobbit
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 86 11:10:33 -0500
From: lkramer@dewey.udel.EDU

This message is forwarded from a friend of mine who reads sf-lovers
regularly, but doesn't have a net address.  Any replies can be
forwarded to me or posted on the net:

  In a recent digest entry a list of books from a store called "The
Other Change of Hobbit" appeared.  I looked for one of the titles
listed, but have been unable to find it or order it.  Could someone
please give me information (address) as to how to write to this
store so I can order a book?

Thanks in advance,
Jim.9000

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 86 8:15:28 EST
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ASB) <earl@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who

Dr. Who has been playing in the Baltimore (MD) area and has gotten
to the point that he has a new sidekick Romano.  Unfortunately, I
must now make a decision as to whether to forego watching it in
favor of a higher priority activity.  Anybody who knows the Dr. Who
series can help me out; will Romano ever dress the way Leela did?

------------------------------

Subject: re: sf dilly
Date: 05 Feb 86 11:10:21 PST (Wed)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        Is anybody besides me watching the BBC Tripods series on
PBS?  What do you think of, both as a television effort and as a
comparison to the books from which it springs?

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 86 14:33:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: Worldcon mailing problems

Has anybody gotten PR 3 yet?  We received duplicate copies of PR 2
about the time I expected PR 3, and the con folks have not answered
my letters.  Is anybody having the same problem, or know anything
about the situation?

Reply directly to:  mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Feb 86 1046-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Feb 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:

           Books - Clarke & Dickson & Hubbard (2 msgs) &
                   McCaffrey & Saberhagen & Smith &
                   Wolfe (2 msgs),
           Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Clarke's Laws ("Any sufficiently advanced technology...")
Date: 9 Feb 86 07:11:09 GMT

>>> "A sufficiently high level of technology is indistinguishable
>>> from magic."
>>>  Heinlein
>> Clarke!
> Now don't start *that* again!
> Yes, both Heinlein and Clarke are credited with the above statement
> The verdict?  Neither admits to being the originator.

Curious.  I've read a lot of both authors, and this is the first
I've seen of anyone but Clarke connected with the aphorism.  But I
have no involvement with organized fandom; perhaps the last quoted
poster does.  I'd be interested to see a reference for Heinlein's
claim to this.

Here is Clarke's claim, and note that it is a claim of authorship;
did he later retract it?  For good measure I throw in Clarke's other
laws, as they originally appeared.

Reference: "Profiles of the Future", 1972 revised edition.  Page
numbers are for the Popular Library paperback of 1977.

Page 32:

  Too great a burden of knowledge can clog the wheels of
  imagination; I have tried to embody this fact of observation in
  Clarke's Law, which may be formulated as follows:

        When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that
        something is possible, he is almost certainly right.
        When he states that something is impossible, he is very
        probably wrong.

  Perhaps the adjective "elderly" requires definition.  In physics,
  mathematics, and astronauts it means over thirty; in the other
  disciplines, senile decay is sometimes postponed to the forties.
  There are, of course, glorious exceptions; but as every researcher
  just out of college knows, scientists of over fifty are good for
  nothing but board meetings, and should at all costs be kept out of
  the laboratory!

Page 39:

  The [above] list is deliberately provocative: it includes sheer
  fantasy as well as serious scientific speculation.  But the only
  way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a
  little way past them into the impossible[1].  In the chapters that
  follows, this is exactly what I hope to do...

Footnote:

  [1] The French edition of this book rather surprised me by calling
  this Clarke's Second Law.  (See page 25 [sic] for the First, which
  is now rather well-known.)  I accept the label, and have also
  formulated a Third: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
  indistinguishable from magic."

  As three laws were good enough for Newton, I have modestly decided
  to stop there.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 86 07:50:22 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Dickson's The Final Encyclopedia
From: Kurt Piersol <piersol.pasa@Xerox.COM>

  Some added pages in the hardbound edition of The Final
Encyclopedia confirm your guesses.  Childe is indeed to be the
culminating novel. I found the Final Encyclopedia an excellent novel
in its own right, since it finally succeeded in getting me
interested in the Friendlies, who I had earlier considered rather
boring.  At least it is now clear how they maintained a viable
splinter culture when almost everyone else but the Dorsai and Exotic
cultures had disappeared.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Feb 86 09:39 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Death of Hubbard

Well, look at Tolkien.  He's had at least four books published since
his death.  Yes, he has a devouted grandson, but Hubbard has
devouted followers in the faith.  If there were even a few
hand-written notes, they would probably publish them.  Also, look at
the Conan series of Howard.  Many stories were written by Carter, et
al.  based on partial stories, fragments, plotlines, etc.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum@HI-MULITCS)

------------------------------

From: dsi1!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Armstrong)
Subject: Re: Death of Hubbard
Date: 14 Feb 86 12:24:48 GMT

>From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
>> So much for the decalogy.
>Well, look at Tolkien.  He's had at least four books published
>since his death.  Yes, he has a devouted grandson, but Hubbard has
>devouted followers in the faith.  If there were even a few
>hand-written notes, they would probably publish them.  Also, look
>at the Conan series of Howard.  Many stories were written by
>Carter, et al.  based on partial stories, fragments, plotlines,
>etc.

As I understand Volume 2 in the dekalogy is due for release on March
13.  That would have been Hubbard's 75th birtday.  The remaining
volumes are supposedly written and will be released according to
some predetermined timetable.

------------------------------

From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow)
Subject: Re: post-WHITE DRAGON era
Date: 14 Feb 86 04:14:01 GMT

Perhaps I should have sent this to net.rumor, but here goes:

Anne McCaffery is one of the most prominent authors of "commercial
science fantasy".  You know what I'm talking about.  In sf there are
authors like "Lee Correy" and James Hogan who write industrial-
grade science fiction, but Anne McCaffery is much more prominent in
her chosen field.  Look at all the teenagers running around at
conventions wearing dragon dolls and thinking ONLY about dragons.
(That's what I don't like--the obsession.)  But she could make lots,
lots, lots more money if she just takes my suggestion here.

Suggestion for a novel:
                   THE SWORD OF SHARRA
        by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Anne McCaffery

In the (chronologically) last Darkover novel, THE WORLD WRECKERS,
the telepaths of Darkover made a telepathic call to all the other
telepaths of the galaxy.  Well, just imagine that Pern is in the
same galaxy and same future history.  The telepaths of Pern get the
call.  Who interpets it?  What is the most powerfully telepathic
race on Pern? And who is its most powerful telepath?  Of course, the
Dragons, and Ruth in particular.  So, Ruth starts getting irrestible
visions of a planet orbiting a red sun (Hee. Hee!).  He tells Jaxom
and Sharra (Remember that name?), and after much dithering they
decide to go.  They get there, look around in shock, have some
adventures, and barely escape with their lives.  They go back,
consult with Ruatha and the Harpers, and Pern and Darkover start
dealing in earnest.  Watch out as

   Pernians start getting very confused by Darkover sexual mores.
   Darkoverans start getting very confused by Pern sexual mores.
   Someone decides to go Dragon-hunting, and comes to a very bad
   end.

You can add whatever speculations you wish.  It will sell big bucks,
divided two ways of course, but it will be a greatly profitable book
all the same.  I expect to see it soon.

Respectfully,
Eric Robert Jablow
MSRI
ucbvax!brahms!jablow

------------------------------

From: bucsb!odin@caip.rutgers.edu (Ben Page)
Subject: Saberhagen's Frankenstein
Date: 14 Feb 86 21:22:10 GMT

     This book, although (not suprisingly) well written, does not
have the same je ne sais quoi as his Dracula books.  It is, in
short, just another story.  In it, Dr. Frankenstein is portrayed as
a dupe of both fate, and his immoral compatriots, while his
"creation" turns out to be a creature from another planet sent to
observe Earth and caught with his pants down by a bolt of
electricity.  It is difficult for me to believe that Dr.
Frankenstein could be conducting the advanced (for the time)
experiments that he was, and still be as naive as he had to be to
actually believe that the experiments he was conducting could
actually produce life.  I definitely do not recommend this book,
although I would highly recommend his Dracula series for those who
have not read it.

Ben Page.
csckgqc@bostonu.BITNET
odin%bu-cs@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: RE: Cordwainer Smith book...
Date: 15 Feb 86 03:52:48 GMT

> The one with the "This is the middle, this is the beginning, etc."
> in it is Norstrillia.
   Nope, Norstrilia starts out with a two page summary of the entire
story, followed by the words "The details follow".
   I had thought at first that the referenced story MUST be a
Cordwainer Smith story, but after reviewing ALL of the existing CS
stories, I find I was mistaken.  The closest thing I've been able to
come up with is Harlan Ellison's "Repent, Harlequin, said the Tik
Tok Man", which starts very like the original quote.
   I STILL recommend Cordwainer Smith to anyone who hasn't read his
stories...

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe flames and reviews
Date: 14 Feb 86 11:11:09 GMT

benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (T Cox)
writes [in reply to my reply to a reply to a query about the Book of
the New Sun, in which I criticized the one who replied for insulting
those who didn't consider it the best SF novel ever written (best I
can do; if you missed the original posting just give up...)]:

>Flame on.

>You total bozos.  I really cannot understand such gross stupidity
>in people who would otherwise strike me as bright: readers of
>SF/Fantasy stories.  You amaze me.
>       You can swallow spiders on Mars.  You can read the future
>history of the Earth a million hears hence without blinking.  You
>can handle the twisting and writhing of every physical law of the
>universe.  And then, then you fall flat on your collective faces
>when someone uses strong rhetoric.  This is too much.

   We are talking about two different things here.  One is
suspension of disbelief when reading fiction.  All of us clearly
accept this or we would not read SF.  But this has nothing to do
with the case we are discussing.  The original poster noted that he
had not particularly enjoyed the first two volumes of BONS, and
asked what other people saw in it.  The reply said nothing about
what was good about the book, just that everyone should think that
it is the best SF ever written and insulted those who didn't
(clearly including the original poster, since he had already stated
that he didn't particularly appreciate the book).

>The original poster, whose article has long since vanished from my
>site, said things like "there never has been, nor ever could be, an
>author as gifted as this one."

The actual quote which you are paraphrasing was:
krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes:
"Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the
science fiction genre.  His prose, his ideas - all of it.  The best.
Hands down."

>Do you think he was serious?  Of course not!  Great horned toads of
>Jupiter!  This is called, now read slowly here, exaggeration.
>Everyone catch that?  He was overstating the case for dramatic
>effect.  Something any author can do through the mouth of a
>character without surprising any one of you.  But let someone make
>a sweeping generalization on the net, and everyone jumps down his
>throat.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.

   Your paraphrase is clearly an exaggeration.  The original quote
is not.  It and the rest of the reply can all be taken as meaning
exactly what they say: heaped praise on BONS and insults for those
who do not appreciate it.  Frankly, I consider it the responsibility
of the poster to tell us if he doesn't mean what he says, or better
yet not to post at all.  If for some reason you are not willing to
say what you mean, I think most people would prefer that you just
keep your mouth shut instead of making a fool of yourself.

>Now we're going to have a little test here.  I am going to write
>something that will be an exaggeration.  I will do it for dramatic
>effect.  Ready?  Take your time.  Don't get excited; it's only
>exaggeration.  It's just a rhetorical device.  Now brace
>yourselves.
>       Not one of you is worthy of posting to sf-lovers, you
>       narrow-minded, gullible GITS!  How literal-minded and
>       dense can a human being be?!?  You are not worthy of
>       even READING this newsgroup!  I banish you all forth-
>       with to the purgatory of net.philosophy, net.religion.
>       christian, net.women, and net.cooks!  Begone!
>There, that wasn't so bad, was it?  A little warm, but hardly
>threatening to the discriminating reader.

   The OED defines rhetoric as "The art of using language to
persuade or influence others...."  The above does neither; it only
insults.  If you wrote the above in a context in which it could be
taken seriously I *would* take it seriously, which means that, as
its author, I would cease to take *you* seriously.

>Flame off.  May the elementals of fire be appeased.

>Please, fellow readers, next time someone uses strong language the
>way the original poster did, to make an obviously silly sweeping
>generalization, remember that there are people in the world who use
>that kind of phrasing all the time, in normal conversation.  Just
>because you don't, that doesn't mean others cannot.  And if it gets
>under your skin, that is not the other guy's fault.  If the
>original poster had been a green-tentacled alien from, say, Planet
>10, you'd not have reacted that way.  Shame on you all.

   I say what I mean.  Each person has the right, and the
responsibility, to say whatever he wants.  If he chooses to say
something other than what he means, is it our responsibility to
decide what he "really" meant?
   And, no matter how the original reply was meant (which I maintain
it is not my responsibility to decipher), my objection remains.  To
reply to a posting which says, "I didn't like X much, but I would
like to hear why other people liked it," with statements insulting
those who dislike X instead of describing what you like about X (as
others have done in this case) is completely unacceptable to me.

David desJardins

------------------------------

From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 14 Feb 86 18:33:27 GMT

patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes:
>>I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible.
>
>I'll second that!  This was an outstandingly bad novel.  Yet it
>seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must issue forth onto
>the net to demonstrate why there's such a large and uncritical
>market for so much bad SF.

This "cult" happens to include more than half of the SFWA, the
Science Fiction Writers of America, as evidenced by the Nebula
selections.  I would hardly call the SFWA uncritical, or large for
that matter.  Perhaps the writers know something you don't?  (There,
we're even insult for insult.)

Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
{sun,ptsfa,ihnp4,well,yomama,frog}!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Who
Date: 14 Feb 86 15:26:06 GMT

>   No, sorry, Romana will never dress the way Leela did (and
> neither will anyone else, for that matter).  But if you keep
> watching, you still have Tegan's leather mini-skirt and Peri's
> bikini to look forward to!

        I'm afraid not. All we get in the Washington D.C/Baltimore
area is Tom Baker's Doctor and THAT'S ALL. We are on the third time
around with the fourth Doctor since I got interested in watching
Doctor Who. It doesn't look like we'll ever see any other except at
cons.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Feb 86 0923-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Feb 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:

            Books - Herbert & Martin (3 msgs) & Vance &
                    Story Request & Story Idea,
            Radio - SF Radio Program,
            Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Criticizing & Quote Source &
                    Harpers Article & Boskon 23 & Religion in SF 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gt-oscar!gt3191b@caip.rutgers.edu (MCALLISTER)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's Control of "Dune"
Date: 22 Feb 86 03:49:19 GMT

>Don't be too sure.  I understand F. Herbert retained creative
>control of DUNE and look at the abomination that was.

This is not entirely true.  Rather than expound here on all of Mr.
Herbert's feelings on the fiasco that was released as "Dune", I
shall refer you to the foreward in Frank Herbert's "EYE" which
should be available in any good bookstore near you.

DISCLAIMER: I have not read "EYE", I have only read the foreward.
            Therefore this is NOT a recommendation for the book.

McAllister, Daniel Grear
Georgia Insitute of Technology,
PO Box 33191
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gt-oscar!gt3191b

------------------------------

Subject: Seedship Ark stories
Date: 19 Feb 86 09:30:47 PST (Wed)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

Hi all.
        One of our readers a while back requested that I send a list
of the Haviland Tuf stories I'd refered to a while back.  Well, they
all came out in Analog (three within the last six months), but I
can't actually find any of my copies.  My Analog library goes back
quite a ways; I think my roommate borrowed them, cuz I reread them
all a while back and now I can't find them.  If somebody with the
last few year-end Analog issues could look in the Year Index for
stuff by George R.R. Martin, chances are that the titles mentioned
are the stories we are looking for.  (Not the stuff he wrote with
Lisa Tuttle.  Those are the Windhaven stories, and are equally
good.)
        Has anybody seen the collection of short stories that is
coming out ?  Local bookstore hasn't been of any help (so what else
is new ??).

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu 20 Feb 86 17:44:39-PST
From: Jim McGrath <J.JPM@EPIC>
Subject: Tuf Voyaging

>From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>Those of us familiar with Analog will remember the stories about
>Haviland Tuf, and his EEC Seedship Ark.  ( I think it was George
>R.R. martin who wrote these ).  I can remember five or six of these
>stories over the last several years, three of them in recent issues
>of Analog.
>
>My question is this: Has there yet been a story on how Tuf and his
>companions ( now all deceased, I believe ) found the derelict Ark
>in the first place ?

First, the story you requested is to be found in the January and
February 1985 issues of Analog magazine, serialized as the Star
Plague.  Second, a hardcover edition of the collected stories (woven
into a loose novel) has been published as Tuf Voyaging.  It contains
all of the Analog stories and one additional short story.

I have always loved the Tuf stories and strongly recommend that
people check this book out if they have not already read the stories
in Analog.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 21 Feb 1986 08:33:42-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: George Martin's Haviland Tuf series

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
> If somebody with the last few year-end Analog issues could look in
> the Year Index for stuff by George R.R.  Martin, chances are that
> the titles mentioned are the stories we are looking for.

The complete list of Haviland Tuf stories is:

"A Beast for Norn"      ANDROMEDA ONE (Mar 1976)  (British
                            anthology ed. by Peter Weston)
        [reprinted in]  Galaxy  (Sep/Oct 1979)
"Call Him Moses"        Analog  (Feb 1978)
"Guardians"             Analog  (Oct 12 1981)
"The Plague Star"       Analog  (Jan, Feb 1985)
"Loaves and Fishes"     Analog  (Oct 1985)
"Second Helpings"       Analog  (Nov 1985)
"Manna from Heaven"     Analog  (Mid-Dec 1985)

The Tuf series is just a part of a larger future history, the
Manrealm series, which includes the bulk of Martin's fiction,
including his most well-known stories, such as "A Song for Lya",
"With Morning Comes Mistfall", "The Way of Cross and Dragon",
"Sandkings", and DYING OF THE LIGHT.

>       Has anybody seen the collection of short stories that is
> coming out ? Local bookstore hasn't been of any help (so what else
> is new ??).

Yes, I saw copies for sale at Boskone. It's a hardcover from Baen
Books (Simon & Schuster) called TUF VOYAGING.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: cad!grady@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Grady)
Subject: references to other authors
Date: 14 Feb 86 19:17:47 GMT

I started reading the Demon Princes novels, by Jack Vance,
yesterday, and in the second one, _The_Killing_Machine_ Chapter 3
introduction, there is a reference to a work by A. N. der Poulson.
Obviously this is a play on Poul Anderson, but I hadn't noticed such
references earlier in these books.  Has anyone seen other references
in these books?

        Steven
PS PLEASE don't say "no I don't know, but there's this book Flying
Sorcerors which has all these references" because I think by now we
all know about them.

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Yet Another Story Request
Date: 18 Feb 86 22:39:10 GMT

My account for author/title requests is fully paid up, so I submit
the following for the august members of the net. [A few of you might
remember seeing it; I first posted it in early 1984, and got NO
responses, which is most unusual.]

I am looking for the author, title, or a pointer to an SF short
story that I believe was published in the early 1960's (plus or
minus a few years). The story was darkly humorous, took place in an
overcrowded city, and involved a family or married (?) couple trying
to make ends meet even though a totalitarian government keeps making
work days longer by way of a Department of Time Distribution that
can somehow lengthen/shorten periods of time. There are a few other
such agencies mentioned in the story. I believe I read the story in
either a reprint or original hardcover anthology.

It isn't Ellison's "Repent, Harlequin ...", Farmer's
"Sliced-Crosswise, Only-on-Tuesday World" [-> Dayworld], nor
Ballard's "Billenium" or "Build-up" though it has something in
common with each of these.

Any clues appreciated!

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: post-WHITE DRAGON era
Date: 21 Feb 86 08:25:22 GMT

jablow@brahms.UUCP (Eric Robert Jablow) writes:
>Look at all the teenagers running around at conventions wearing
>dragon dolls and thinking ONLY about dragons.

Oh, come on.  I have a nice dragon doll that is very good for
boffing people about the head with when they make bad puns.  The
type is sewn by costuming maniacs (and good friends of mine) who are
out of teenagerhood.

>Suggestion for a novel:
>                  THE SWORD OF SHARRA
>       by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Anne McCaffery
>In the (chronologically) last Darkover novel, THE WORLD WRECKERS,
>the telepaths of Darkover made a telepathic call to all the other
>telepaths of the galaxy.  Well, just imagine that Pern is in the
>same galaxy and same future history.

Didn't you read the last story in _Sword of Chaos_?  It was titled
"A Recipe for Failure", by Millea Kenin, and the dragon Broth and
his rider T'Spoon had appeared there...  So why imagine???

>The telepaths of Pern get the call.  Who interpets it?  What is the
>most powerfully telepathic race on Pern? And who is its most
>powerful telepath?  Of course, the Dragons, and Ruth in particular.
>So, Ruth starts getting irrestible visions of a planet orbiting a
>red sun (Hee. Hee!).

And comes out in vacuum, orbiting Liriel.  Great.  Dragons meet
explosive decompression.  Try high mountains with a red sun at noon,
better to go on...  (Hmmm, now do dragons have a homing instinct so
they won't come out in vacuum?  Canth going the the Red Star would
have been pretty high in the atmosphere..)

>He tells Jaxom and Sharra (Remember that name?), and after much
>dithering they decide to go.  They get there, look around in shock,
>have some adventures, and barely escape with their lives.  They go
>back, consult with Ruatha and the Harpers, and Pern and Darkover
>start dealing in earnest.  Watch out as
>       Pernians start getting very confused by Darkover sexual
>mores.

Since when did Darkovans have sexual mores?

>       Darkoverans start getting very confused by Pern sexual
>mores.

Since when did the Pernese have sexual mores?

>Someone decides to go Dragon-hunting, and comes to a very bad end.

They have a fairy-tale on Darkover with some son of Hastur lamenting
it, so I guess dragons would be a bit more popular than THAT...  But
with all them Comyn conservatives....  Actually, seems a bit of a
parallel with the oldies thinking queens can't chew firestone and
ride in Fall and Keepers must be virgins...

>You can add whatever speculations you wish.  It will sell big
>bucks, divided two ways of course, but it will be a greatly
>profitable book all the same.  I expect to see it soon.

Ack!  Phhht!

Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 86 20:54:01 EST
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: HOUR OF THE WOLF

Did you know that there is a radio program devoted to SF???

Its called 'Hour of the Wolf' and its on WBAI 99.5FM (NY).  The show
is hosted by Jim Freund, and is broadcast every Saturday morning
from 5:00AM-7:00AM .  The program features interviews, readings of
short stories, playing of Convention Speeches, and Radio Dramas
based on your favourite SF stories.

He also plays SF related music, (and also some non-related but
equally good music such as Steel Eye Span).  For example, the
opening theme is from Silent Running.

Jim describes the show as devoted to SF, Fantasy, Enchantment, and
the Imagination.

In the past he has done 'theme' shows such as Phillip K. Dick, and
Tolkien.

Next week's show will be devoted to the works of the late Frank
Herbert.

Tune in... you'll like what you hear.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 17 Feb 86 17:57:19-EST
From: Doctor I & III & V  <WESALUM.A-LIAO-85@KLA.WESLYN>
Subject: Dr. Who request

Does anyone out there know the address of ANY American distributor
for Bassett's Jelly Babies?  Better yet - does anyone have the
correspondence address of Bassett's itself in England...?

thanx,
drew

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who request
Date: 24 Feb 86 01:30:00 GMT

> I forget the address, but there's a place in NY or Long Island (I
> forget which) run by Creation.  They carry Jelly Babies.  Go to
> any Dr.Who or Star Trek con run by Creation.  Dealers at these
> cons usually have them.

I don't advise it: they usually charge an arm and a leg.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

From: ritcv!sma8465@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Abbott)
Subject: Re: "His was the most human"
Date: 14 Feb 86 20:42:09 GMT

     I just have one small question.  Why is that all people seem to
do on this (and other newsgroups) is to point out faults and
criticize things (ie. programs, people, movies, the weather, ad
nauseaum).  I realize that this is something people like to do, but
must it be done to this extent?  I for one am tired of hearing how
'unrealistic' Star Trek is.  As all of you continue to point out, it
is ONLY a television show.  You can't expect to much from a 1960's
show on a limited budget.  So, please stop pointing out how the
t-shirts showed up under the actors shirts, or how the orbit around
the planet look wrong, or how some number is obviously incorrect.
Try to think about the ideals the show represented and continues to
represent.  Let's try to keep the complaining down just a bit.  It
would be too much to expect no complaining.  After all, what am I
doing with this article?

Steve Abbott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Feb 86 10:18 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Techology / magic

> A sufficiently high level of technology is indistinguishable from
> magic.

The quote also appears in the Notebook of Lazarus Long found in the
middle of Time Enough for Love by Heinlein along with such greats as
"Man is a Generalist, Specialization is for Insects".  He probably
was borrowing it from Clarke. I don't know. I'm just familiar with
Heinlein's reference.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum\@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Subject: Harpers magazine
Date: 20 Feb 86 09:25:39 PST (Thu)
From: Macintosh Laboratory <mac@ICSC.UCI.EDU>

The Feb. 19 edition of the the LA Times had an article about a bunch
of local SF writers (Benford, Brin, Harrison, etc.) who got together
after the Uranus fly-by and started a heated discussion about an
article in the October edition of Harper's magazine. The essay was
called "The Temple of Boredom" (subtitled "Science Fiction, no
future") by Luc Sante.

The article gets down on SF as a genre for its "hubris", "woozy
universalism", and "contrivance", and goes on and on about SF as
"the domain of hobbyists and hacks".

Since I'm not in the "literary establishment" (:-), I missed this
article, but I'm curious as to why there was no mention of it on
sf-lovers (maybe I just missed it). I couldn't think of anything
that could set off the division of flame-throwers on the net as much
as a blatant frontal attack as this.

Anyway, I'm going to go look up the article and would like to hear
what other people think of it.

Greg Finnegan
mac@icsc.uci.edu

The article mentions the so-called "eastern literary establishment"
and its neglect of SF as less-than-literature. I think maybe I'll
send a little note to the LA Times editors asking why they are in
that class -- the Book Review only reviews an SF novel about every 5
weeks. Oh well...

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 1986 11:28:36 PST
Subject: Boskone
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

Knowing that at least half a function room of SF-L readers were at
Boskone, and knowing that some of you may have left before the gripe
session Sunday, here's your chance to let your opinions on Boskone
be known to next year's Chairman. Mail any comments, whether
positive or negative, to Galloway@isib.arpa, and I'll forward them
to next year's Chair.  If you really feel committed to changing
something about Boskone, feel free to volunteer to work on the con;
we're always looking for new people and/or ideas.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Feb 1986 18:15:42 EST
From: <SORCEROR@LL.ARPA>
Subject: BOSKONE XXIII and Shariann Lewitt

This query arises from an excellent discussion on SF and Religion
which occurred as part of the programming at last weekend's Boskone.
The presentation dealt with SF's role in extending our concepts of
what constitutes religion, as well as its treatment of traditional
belief systems.  I felt that this event was a real highlight, and
would be interested in hearing the reactions of other SF-LOVERS who
might have been fortunate enough to attend.  The panel included our
very own Leigh Ann Hussey, as well as Gene Wolfe, and another writer
named Shariann Lewitt. I was particularly impressed with some of Ms.
Lewitt's comments and so would like to read some of her material,
but I've never heard of her before.  Can anyone out there tell me
what she's written and where I might find it?  Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Karl Heinemann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 86 0831-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:

              Books - Eddings & Heinlein & McCaffrey &
                      Wilhelm & Story Request,
              Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings,
              Television - The Prisoner & Star Trek,
              Miscellaneous - SFL T-shirt & Boskone &
                      Quote Source Request & Worldcon & 
                      Corflu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: _Belgariad_ review (slight spoilers)
Date: 25 Feb 86 04:00:41 GMT

Longer review:

Yes this is yet-another-growing-up saga; in many respects it is
quite similar to the 5 Lloyd Alexander "Taran" books (aka _Black
Cauldron_).  It's also a quest novel, and a theological novel, and
several other standard fantasy themes rolled up together.  Yet it
somehow manages to rise above all this.

The first three books are immensely enjoyable.  Eddings has
strikingly vivid characters with lots of complexities, and, although
the plot advances somewhat leisurely, it's fun simply to watch the
characters do their thing.  The cosmology, which is revealed
gradually through the book, is familiar and yet somehow new and
fresh, and there are interesting and amusing detours through
prophets, scriptural interpretation, and the like.

The plot moves very deliberately, not really getting on the track
until Book 2.  By the end of Book 3 it really begins to pull the
reader along, to the point where I and all my friends spent many
months chewing our nails waiting for the last book.  In middle of
book 4, however, the plot line forks for a second time.  In Book 5
this split persists, and furthermore, it explodes into many plot
lines, all of which Eddings tries to carry simultaneously in the
middle of a colossal battle; needless to say, it takes a bit of work
on the part of the reader to keep everything straight.  Finally, we
come to the second big conclusion, and everything is resolved--
right?  Well, not exactly.  During the Climactic Scene, the plot
quite suddenly becomes very mechanical and feels a bit contrived;
one could argue that the scene indeed demands such a change in
style, but nevertheless it takes a lot of the punch out of the
scene.  So the last book is not so satisfactory as the rest of the
story.

Another thing that is an occasional problem is a bit too much
preachiness.  The various races of the region are occasionally used
as exemplars of human social problems, with mixed results.
Sometimes it falls flat; other times, however, the characatures
produced are quite amusing.  Another thing that is entertaining are
the little stories which serve as introductions to each book.
Again, those of the last two are not so good, but the story of the
Grolim which begins the third book is a marvelous story and a
delightful parody as well.

Overall, this series is well worth reading.  THe first four books
are delightful entertainment, and, while the fifth has some serious
troubles, it does not ruin the work as a whole.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 86 08:26:08 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Techology / magic
From: Piersol.pasa@Xerox.COM

>The quote also appears in the Notebook of Lazarus Long found in the
>middle of Time Enough for Love by Heinlein along with such greats
>as "Man is a Generalist, Specialization is for Insects".  He
>probably was borrowing it from Clarke. I don't know. I'm just
>familiar with Heinlein's reference.

I noticed that many of the 'Notebooks' quotes bear an uncanny
resemblance to the wit of Mark Twain, but chalked up all of the
similarities to a simple case of Lazarus grabbing them for his own
since no one knew better three thousand years hence. (Wow, did I
foul up that sentence!)

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Tue 25 Feb 86 22:35:32-PST
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #34
Cc: proper!carl@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

>(Hmmm, now do dragons have a homing instinct so they won't come out
>in vacuum?

Probably not, if they have to be trained not to come out inside
solid rock (remember the weyrling they came across in the
hillside?).

I always thought that the logical next step was for them to visit
the dawn sisters.  These would not be cleaned out, so they would
find a photograph which they could use to go between to the world
the colonists came from, before they left.  Of course, this leads to
all the normal time travel paradoxes, which McCaffrey seems to be
trying hard to avoid :-)

evan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Feb 86 03:14:37 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: HUYSMAN'S PETS by Kate Wilhelm

I want to say some good things about Kate Wilhelm's latest novel:
HUYSMAN'S PETS is enormously fun to read, its characters are
engrossing, its plot is entertaining, and it left me with a very
warm feeling.  So why am I not quite satisfied with it, given all
this praise?

Stanley Huysman was a Nobel Prize winning geneticist, an eccentric,
an egomaniac.  Huysman's declining years were spent in apparently
futile attempts to increase the intelligence of chimpanzees and to
detect telepathy between identical twins, efforts which earned him
immense scorn and ridicule in the scientific community.  The writer
Drew Lancaster is hired by Huysman's widow to write the definitive
biography of the man and (of course) discovers that Huysman was not
as naive and eccentric as he appeared...  Lancaster's investigation
brings him back into contact with his ex-wife, Pat Stevens, now a
legislative assistant to an important senator in Washington, and the
plot of the novel is intricately intertwined with the relation
between these two people, who didn't understand why they married and
now can't understand why they divorced.  The novel isn't quite a
thriller, because it prefers to dwell on the human qualities of its
protagonists more than the delicate machinery of its thriller-style
plot, but the suspense is more than ample to draw the reader to the
climax.

I enjoyed reading HUYSMAN'S PETS but I'm still left with the feeling
that this was not one of Wilhelm's best novels, not up to WHERE LATE
THE SWEET BIRDS SANG or WELCOME, CHAOS or A SENSE OF SHADOW.  Since
my humble opinion is that Wilhelm is one of the very best writers in
the SF genre, this means that I probably liked HUYSMAN'S PETS much
more than the peak efforts of some other writers; but I felt that
the powerful and interesting ideas set out in HUYSMAN'S PETS were
not well explored.  In WELCOME, CHAOS Wilhelm was not afraid to take
an idea to its limit, and made the idea a central feature of the
plot and climax.  In HUYSMAN'S PETS the plot is almost an intrusion
into the story of the two main characters, a story that has much to
do with human understanding and misunderstanding and not so much to
do with the 'pets' of the title, who are not very human at all.  I
didn't get the impression that ending of PETS was encouraging a
sequel, but if Wilhelm wants to write one she has plenty of material
to work with...

If you enjoy Wilhelm's work as much as I do, you'll definitely want
to buy HUYSMAN'S PETS, but if you aren't familiar with her style,
you'll probably be better off starting with another one of her
novels.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 86 14:39:12 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA>
Subject: Story Request

Folks,

    On a TV game show recently, one girl mentioned a short story,
"Indistinguishable From Magic," and the title caught my attention.
Can anybody tell me where it was printed?  Thanks!

Ron Singleton (rsingle@bbn-unix)

------------------------------

From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen)
Subject: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings
Date: 1 Mar 86 05:23:15 GMT

Does anyone know if recordings of the BBC "Hitchhiker's Guide the
Galaxy" radio series are available?  The only recordings I can find
are readings of Douglas Adams' books (nice, but not the same).

Jim Olsen
(olsen@ll-xn.arpa)  ...!{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner: Fallout!
Date: 27 Feb 86 17:46:50 GMT

>From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
>_PRISONER_ fans in the Boston area:
>
>Last Saturday night, channel 7 ran "Once Upon a Time" (Episode
>N-1).  Thus I expect that this Saturday night (2/22), they will
>show "Fallout" (Episode N).
>
>Without next week's TV Guide, I can't be 100% certain of the
>episode or the time. However, the episode seems a reasonable
>inference, and barring long movies or specials, it should air at
>11:30 pm.  I am sending this message now instead of waiting till TV
>Guide comes, in hopes of getting it into an early enough digest.

For those who care, I have attached a list of the episode titles, in
the order they were recently broadcast on MPT, along with the order
they were broadcast earlier.  I do not know which, if either is
the correct order.  Any ideas?

      MPT                                          Earlier
      Episode   Episode Name                       Episode
      Number                                       Number

      1         Arrival                            1
      2         Chimes of Big Ben                  2
      3         A, B, and C                        3
      4         Free For All                       4
      5         Schizoid Man                       10
      6         The General                        11
      7         Many Happy Returns                 5
      8         Dance of the Dead                  13
      9         Do Not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling   9
      10        It's Your Funeral                  12
      11        Checkmate                          14
      12        Living in Harmony                  7
      13        A Change of Mind                   6
      14        Hammer into Anvil                  8
      15        The Girl Who Was Death             15
      16        Once Upon a Time                   16
      17        Fall Out                           17

It is interesting to note that the last 3 episodes are the same in
both streams, and that due to their nature "Fall Out" MUST follow
"Once Upon a Time".

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless @ Imperial
From: Propoganda)
Subject: Re: ST episode (Assignment: Earth) question
Date: 3 Mar 86 05:27:58 GMT

> The Star Trek episode "Assignment: Earth" has just been shown
> here.
>
> This looked very much as though they were hoping for a spin-off
> series for Gary Seven (lots of futuristic gadgets but conveniently
> set in 1968).

The episode was a pilot for a spinoff that didn't sell.  So it goes.

{dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Feb 86 22:25:17 est
From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
Subject: SFL T-shirt

As brought up at the Boskone panel on Electronic Fanac (and thanks
to all the SF-LOVERs who showed up (we had a full house)), there is
a great deal of interest in reprinting the SF-LOVERS T-shirt. I've
been in touch with Bob Forward (phud), who has volunteered the use
of his son as an artist to resurrect the mechanicals, but suggests I
place a call out on the net looking for the originals first. SO:

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE ORIGINALS FOR THE SF-LOVERS T-SHIRT ARE?

Assuming we can find them, I can arrange to have another printing
made. Might I suggest the following arrangement:

1) Everyone who is interested in getting a shirt send mail to me.

2) After I have a rough idea of the count, I price out the shirts.

3) I place a little bit of padding in the budget so that we can
print enough to cover future shirt requests.

4) I determine the price of a shirt, based on the number of
committed orders divided into the print run cost.

5) I send mail to all interested parties informing them what the
cost is, and they US SNAIL me money.

6) I print the shirts, send them out to people who ordered, and hold
the remainder against future demand.

Now, a perceptive person will have said "Hey, you're gonna
eventually have made a profit over the basic cost of the shirts!"
(since the cost for a shirt would also include funds to print extra
shirts for future orders.)  Now, since I have no real interest in
making a profit out of this (well...  I actually wouldn't mind, but
it wouldn't be RIGHT), I propose to donate any revenue over expense
to an appropriate charity (such as one of the various shuttle
funds.)

The justification for this hairy scheme is to A) avoid having yours
truly hafta expose any financial liability by fronting money for
printing; B) Produce enough shirts to meet not only current but also
future demand; and C) Confuse you.

Please hold off on any orders until we determine what's going on in
regards to the artwork. I'll let you know when the iron is hot to
strike, the presses are ready to roll, and the forces of freedom are
on the march.

James
ARPA: ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
UUCP: {ima, linus, decvax}!cca!ringwld!jmturn

NOTE: The previous was written immediately after preparation of the
author's 1040, and is therefore likely to contain official government
double-talk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Feb 86 09:28 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Boskone

Could someone who went to Boskone give some highlights for us left
coasters that didn't get to go?  That is assuming there was anything
to highlight.

Jon

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Here's the Quote, What's the Title?
Date: 26 Feb 86 02:49:33 GMT

I am trying to find a source for this quotation, so I can give it a
proper attribution. I strongly believe it is from some SF source;
Arthur C. Clarke rings a bell, but I haven't found it in any of my
books yet. Can anybody help?

The situation: two characters in the story are having a discussion
(about sabotage?). One of them says to the other that you can design
a system which will safeguard against anticipated error conditions
[here's the quote]

"... but you can't design a system that's proof against deliberate
malice."

Any information leading to the source of this quotation and/or the
dramatis personae involved will be greatly appreciated. Replies via
mail, please.

Bill Laubenheimer
UC-Berkeley Computer Science
ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 86 14:46:20 EST
From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@CSNET-SH.ARPA>
Subject: Housing at Worldcon.....

Has anyone been successful in getting a room at the Convention rates
at the Atlanta Worldcon?  I have called both the Atlanta Hilton and
Towers and the Mariott Marquis, and both hotels have told me that
whereas there is function space booked, there have been no block
reservations made, and the only rate they can quote me is the street
rate of over $100/night for a single.  I can do a little better with
the IBM Corporate rate, but this seems a little ridiculous.  I would
have expected arrangements to have been made by now.  Hmmm....is it
unreasonable for them to have not made reservations for lots of
people in September by now?  Or is it normal that they wouldn't make
these arrangements until a few months ahead of time?  My wife has to
sign up for her vacation now, and how long we can stay depends on
how much it will cost.

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: Leeper for Hugo? (Corflu?)
Date: 2 Mar 86 21:01:22 GMT

Somebody's already remarked that there were many sf-lovers at
Boskone (I saw them there, too).  Recognition of USENET, SF-LOVERS,
OtherRealms, and other electronic fannish media seems to be on many
minds.  This makes me wonder: did any of you go to Corflu?  Since it
was unfortunately the same weekend as Boskone, it looks like we've
got a dichotomy not only in the publishing media people use but also
in the cons they go to.

John Quarterman
UUCP:  {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Mar 86 0903-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 7 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:

              Books - Wolfe (2 msgs) & Book Requests,
              Films - Star Trek IV & Jittlov,
              Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings (2 msgs),
              Television - Star Trek & Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: `Funny Words' in TBOTNS
Date: 4 Mar 86 11:44:38 GMT

>>         I have tried (on a subsequent reading) checking the
>> 'funny words' in a dictionary. This is a bad idea, because most
>> of the time the words are used as much for their sound and
>> feeling as for their literal meaning. Nevertheless, those words
>> that I found (in Chambers' 20th Century) _were_ correctly used
>> _and_ not flogged to death by repetition like Donaldson.
>
>I think I know the words you are talking about.  Since you have
>researched them and paid special attention to them, I would *love*
>it if you posted a brief list, along with what you have found out
>about them.
>
>Darin Adler
>{gatech,harvard,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-dillo!darin

Ok, here are a few. I include words that were strange to me and that
I could find in Chambers 20th Century dictionary. The page nos. are
those in the British Arrow paperback edition. As this does not
appear to have been reset from the American edition I expect that
the page nos. will either be identical to or have a constant offset
from US copies. They are all from `The Shadow of the Torturer'.

Page no Word            Meaning
======= ====            =======
12      stele           upright stone slab or tablet
13      dhole           Indian wild dog
21      saros           Babylonian cycle of 3600 years
23      cacogen         member of a [bad,deteriorated] race
27      khan            inn, caravanserai
33      ophicleide      keyed wind-instrument
36      eidolon         image
39      fuligin(ous)    sooty, dusky
43      glyptodon       S. American post-Tertiary fossil (or not)
49      pinakothek      picture-gallery
50      armiger         one entitled to bear a coat-of-arms
60      echidna         genus of Australian monotreme
64      megatherian     extinct (or not) S. American ground sloth
67      pantocreator    ruler of the universe
67      hypostases      substances of the 3 divisions of the Trinity
84      palfrenier      (a) groom
91      paphian         (a) whore
100     kafila          camel train, caravan
125     uhlan           light cavalryman
130     sabretache      cavalry officer's flat bag or satchel
132     peltast         lightly-armed soldier bearing a pelta
                        (light buckler)

Here I pause, having accompanied Severian from the waters of Gyoll
to the office of the lochage. If you wish to go no further, I will
not blame you.  It is a long (but worthwhile ) road.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 27 Feb 86 20:56:53 GMT

Okay, I'm finally moved to take up this gauntlet.  Whatever else has
happened, the original query ("What d'you guys see in this,
anyway?") was quite reasonable and deserves to be answered.

It is sad that I can't answer it.

I will, however, describe my experience with the books.  Okay.  I
picked up SHADOW OF THE TORTURER and read about a third of it,
discovered that it hadn't grabbed me, and stopped reading it.  For
the next year, I kept hearing from friends I respected how much they
were enjoying the books.  In particular, I was hearing from those
who enjoyed the sounds of words, that is, the work of those who are
aware of the beauty of the language.

Well, okay, I like that stuff, too.  That's why I'm a Zelazny nut,
and why I like Orson Scott Card, Jane Yolen, Patricia McKillip, etc.
etc.

So I decided to give the books another try, this time forcing myself
to read slowly and carefully.  It worked for me, and I am now very
glad that I did.  For those who enjoy the sound of English well
wrought, these books will tickle that.  For those who enjoy a good
story, it really is here, it just takes a while to realize it.  The
book is screamingly funny, without ever falling out of its conceit
(including a multi-page comparison of the art of torturing to the
art of writing; I almost hurt myself laughing.)  The book had me
close to tears at times, yet was never a tragedy.  The part of me
that likes to play with ideas just as ideas was tickled all the way
through, but never quite in ways I expected.  On my next few
readings, when I start looking for "What is really going on here;
what is the author saying?"  there is enough meat that I don't go
away hungry.

Okay?  This certainly won't convince anyone who didn't like it that
he ought to, but maybe this will help whoever asked the initial
question to understand why some of us enjoy the books.

skzb

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adsk@caip.rutgers.edu (David S Kerven)
Subject: Forthcoming Books Info Wanted
Date: 5 Mar 86 20:41:52 GMT

     I was wondering if anyone has any idea when the following books
will be coming out:

     A DARKNESS AT SETHANON by Robert E. Feist
     QUEST FOR ST. CAMBER by Katherine Kurtz
     Roger Zelzany's next after TRUMPS OF DOOM
     Sheri S. Tepper's next after DERVISH DAUGHTER

     I would appreciate any information on when these books will be
in print.  Thanks.

David S. Kerven
ARPANET:ins_adsk%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA
BITNET :ins_adsk@jhunix
        G47I6929@jhuvm
CSNET  :ins_adsk@jhunix.CSNET
USENET :!seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_adsk
        !allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_adsk

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 86 02:31:01 PST
Subject: STAR TREK RUMORS - SPOILER WARNING!!

 WARNING - THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS DETAILS OF AN UPCOMMING MOVIE

     The following may be rumor, it may be true.  It certinly was
not known before a few days ago by yours truly.  For those
interested in the latest bit of gossip, we present the following.

                WARNING - The Following Concerns:

                  STAR TREK IV: The Voyage Home

Director: Leonard Nimoy
Producer: Harve Bennett
Executive Producer: Ralph Winter
Casting: Amanda Mackey

ROLE           ARTIST              ROLE           ARTIST
Captain Kirk   William Shatner     Controller #1  Thaddeus Golas
Spock          Leonard Nimoy       Controller #2  Martin Pistone
Bones          DeForest Kelly      1st Garbageman Phil Rubenstein
Scotty         James Doohan        2nd Garbageman John Miranda
Uhura          Nichelle Nichols    Antique Store  Joe Knowland
Chekov         Walter Koenig       Owner
Sulu           George Takei        Bob Briggs     Scott Devenney
Saratagoa Capt Madge Sinclair      Joe            Richard Harder
 " Science Off Mike Brislane       Nichols        Alex Henteloff
 " Helmsman    Nick Ramus          StarFleet Comm Michael Snyder
Cmdr Chappell  Majel Barrett       Pilot          Tony Edwards
Sarek          Mark Lenard         SF Display Off Michael Berryman
Fed Council    Robert Ellenstien   Naval Intelleg Jeff Lester
Cmdr Rand      Grace Lee Whitney   Civilian - Ship Thom Rachford
Klingon Ambas  John Schuck         Eldery Patient Eve Smith
Lt. Saavik     Robin Curtis        1st Intern     Tom Mustin
Amanda         Jane Wyatt          2nd Intern     Greg Karas
Adm Cartwright Brock Peters        1st Shore Cop  Joe Lando
Gillian        Catherine Hicks     Young Doctor   Raymond Singer
Computer Voice Voice Over          Doctor #1      David Ellenstien
Aide           Extra               Allen Com Off  Jane Wieldlin
North Dakota   Veejay Amritraj     Boy in Tour    Ryan Robertson
Starship Captain                   CDO            Newell Tarrant

     Filming started just a few days ago, on Feburary 24th.
Expected completion date is May 12th, 1986.  One can only guess, at
this point, on the complete story idea.  But based on discussion and
other items discovered the story looks as follows:

                  WARNING - STORY RUMORS FOLLOW

     With the cast selected and some set descriptions it appears as
though the fabled crew of the Enterprise arrive on earth after some
negotiations on the Planet Vulcan and arrive on Earth, possibly
still in the Klingon Bird-of-Prey.  In fact, that looks very likely.
The Earth they arrive at is, Now.  Not listed in the above cast call
is a number of current age characters including, the ever popular,
FBI agent.  This is beginning to look, very much like a remake of
the Gary Seven episode.
     Other tidbits of information disclose assistance in the Special
Effects department by Industrial Light and Magic.  Some additional
footage has been shot here in San Diego using the USS Ranger on
North Island.  In addition some location work was done at Will
Rodgers State Park, including the initial landing.  Some joggers are
included as atmosphere.
     Well that about raps up what can be said now.  Much of what I
know is old by now.  But this little scrap of information should
feed the rumor mills for some time, as we discuss the possible
future of Paramont film production #31797.

The following is a standard disclamer regarding the possible
validity of the above observations.  As far as I know, the above
information is current, but as we all know secrecy always involves
confusing twists of hints, and things change just to preserve the
integrity of the story.
  The above is written to whet the appitites of fans and not to
destroy any dreams of possible outcomes.

------------------------------

From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Full length feature of Wizard of Speed and Time
Date: 5 Mar 86 22:13:49 GMT

Last week Kathy Li posted an article asking about Jittlov's project
on turning the classic short "The Wizard of Speed" into a full
length feature. Well, yes he is still working on the movie.

He mentioned that he originally wanted to make a two hour $10M
feature but that the major studios wouldn't back him. So, he's
settled to make a 93 minute 35mm dolby film. Most of it has been
shot and it should be out this fall, if he can find $250K so he can
do music, more effects, and dolby mixing.

He also mentioned that the movie will not be like the short. The
basic story (which is all he would tell me) is the adventures of a
man who can move real fast. He made the short to show that you could
realistically have the effect that this guy can move real fast.

We finally talked about how Pyramid Films (the former distributors
of the short) were screwing him over by selling 10 copies for the
price of 9 and not paying him for the 10th copy. He now handles his
own distribution and sells prints of the short for $110 a copy (he
doesn't have any prints right now though).

By the way, the next time you see "Back to the Future", notice that
"Wizard" is written in graffiti on the steps of the school.

Sean Rouse
ARPA:   cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:   ucbvax!cory!cc-30

------------------------------

From: trwrba!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe)
Subject: Hitchhikers
Date: 4 Mar 86 01:40:58 GMT

>Does anyone know if recordings of the BBC "Hitchhiker's Guide the
>Galaxy" radio series are available?  The only recordings I can find
>are readings of Douglas Adams' books (nice, but not the same).
>Jim Olsen (olsen@ll-xn.arpa) ...!{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen

I have the first two books (Hitchhikers and Restaurant) on cassette.
I know that the records exists (that's where I got my tapes), but
they are hard to find.  If anyone would like a copy of my tapes,
just let me know.
    Does anyone know if they ever recorded 'Life, the Universe, and
Everything'?  I'd be very interested in obtaining a copy.  My tapes
just kind-of end in the middle of the story.

Pete Olpe
UUCP Path:  ...decwrl!decvax!trwrb!trwrba!pro

------------------------------

From: phri!fritz@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Fritzinger)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings
Date: 5 Mar 86 12:56:57 GMT

I have seen recordings of both The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
and to The Restaurant at the End of the Universe for sale at Tower
Records in NYC.  Indeed, I managed to buy copies of both of them
there.

Dave Fritzinger, Public Health Research Institute, NY,NY
{allegra!phri!fritz}

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: ST episode (Assignment: Earth) question
Date: 3 Mar 86 11:21:39 GMT

drm@stc.UUCP (David Monksfield) writes:
>The Star Trek episode "Assignment: Earth" has just been shown here.
>This looked very much as though they were hoping for a spin-off
>series for Gary Seven (lots of futuristic gadgets but conveniently
>set in 1968).  Can anyone out there confirm or deny this and, if
>it's true, was such a spin-off series ever started ?  D. R.
>Monksfield

        YES! This episode also doubled as a pilot for a proposed
series but 'no network nibbled'. The source for this is STARLOG #1
many moons ago.
        A series developed from this could have been...interesting.
        The episode itself mainly concerned itself with launching
this series, lulling most of the people watching it (5-6 in my room)
into thinking:
 'WHERE HAS STAR TREK GONE? '. When two familiars did finally turn
up :
 'AHH..STAR TREK! I REMEMBER THAT...'.
        A few minor points: Was the girl's IQ and shoesize really
comparable?
        Did ISIS really look vulcan? Was Sevens' plot device a
'sonic screwdriver' rip off? Was this episode really boring?
(.ah.um.yes!!.)

Andy T.

------------------------------

Date: 3 mar 86 00:58:19 est
From: pearl@blue.rutgers.edu
Subject: doctor who:  peri replaced!!
Cc: baum@green.rutgers.edu, jarocha-ernst@blue.rutgers.edu,
Cc:     klouda@blue.rutgers.edu, msims@red.rutgers.edu,
Cc: personals@blue.rutgers.edu

The following article appeared in the 2/28 issue of the "Comics
Buyers Guide":

British actress Bonnie Langford has been announced as the new
companion for Doctor Who star Colin Baker.

Langford, 21, is a former child star who has endeared herself to
"family" audiences with "resolutely" wholesome" roles bearing no
hint of controversy.  Since the last season of doctor who was
accused by certain factions of being too violent and sexually
exploitive -- hence the hiatus for "re-evaluation of series'
potential" -- Langford's appointment can be regarded as a carefully
calculated decision by BBC management and a clear indication of the
new direction for the series.

Nicola Bryant, who played the doctor's assistant Peri Brown in the
most recent and controversial season, has been dropped from the show.

The change in the Doctor's assistant will occur in the eighth
episode.

Well, it looks like Michael Grade (BBC programming director) has
managed to screw around with the show.  To my knowledge, this
is the first time that a companion (or Doctor for that matter) was
"dropped" from the show.   Previously, the actor/actress left the
series when they felt they have stayed there too long.

Tomorrow I will post the address of Michael Grade@BBC where I hope
every Whovian will write and complain.  Nicola Bryant has been with
the show since Peter Davidson, and I consider her to have made the
show something special.

Steve

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: DOCTOR WHO:  PERI REPLACED!!
Date: 5 Mar 86 23:51:00 GMT

Personally, I think this is the first good thing that Michael Grade
has done, but we'll leave the opinions in net.tv.drwho...
Meanwhile, suffice it to say that companions definitely have been
written out of the show before, most notably Adric and Nyssa.  I am
very curious as to how Bonnie Langford will turn out.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Mar 86 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 8 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:

               Books - Mitchell & Morris & Robinson &
                       Uttley & Wolfe,
               Films - Brazil & Andre Norton,
               Miscellaneous - Sflovers where are you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: AFTER THE FLAMES edited by E. Mitchell
Date: 5 Mar 86 16:19:15 GMT

           AFTER THE FLAMES edited by Elizabeth Mitchell
                         Baen, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This book consists of three novellas. "The Election" by Robert
Silverberg has nothing particularly new to offer, and is quite
predictable-- a disappointment from a talent like Silverberg's.
"World War Last" by Norman Spinrad fits in well with the new wave of
"cyber-punk, hackers-save- the-world" stories that have come along
recently.  "When Winter Ends" by Michael Kube-McDowell is a more
traditional post-holocaust story tied in with the
"what-would-you-put-in-a-shelter?" question.  Not a great
collection, but the Spinrad and Kube-McDowell are worth reading.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
Get a Usenetter on the ballot at Confederation!
Nominate MARK R. LEEPER for Hugo for Best Fan Writer in 1986!
Nominate SF-LOVERS' DIGEST for Hugo for Best Fanzine in 1986!

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: AFTERWAR edited by Janet Morris
Date: 5 Mar 86 16:18:29 GMT

                  AFTERWAR edited by Janet Morris
                             Baen, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This collection of 11 stories of life after a nuclear war is
less interesting than its introduction, it which Morris explains
that her first request for such stories netted a large number of
"elf stories." Although the list of contributors is impressive--
Gregory Benford, C. J. Cherryh, Ian Watson, and others--the stories
are uniformly dull.  There's not one (except perhaps Watson's "When
Idaho Dived") that sticks in my mind even now.  Skip it.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Robinson Bibliography **BOOKLIST**
Date: 5 Mar 86 16:15:56 GMT

As I promised when I requested it, I am posting the complete (?)
Spider Robinson bibliography:

                      Spider Robinson (1948- )
                            Bibliography

Books:

TELEMPATH                        Berkley/Putnam (Dec 1976)  novel
    [expanded from "By any Other Name"]
CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON      Ace Books      (Jun 1977)  collection
ARMAGEDDON 2419 A.D.             Ace Books      (?, 1978)   novel
    [a "modernization" of Philip Nowlan's novel]
THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS  Ace Books      (Apr 1978)  anthology
STARDANCE                        Dial Press     (Mar 1979)  novel
    [with Jeanne Robinson]
ANTINOMY                         Dell Books     (Oct 1980)  collection
TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH     Ace Books      (Mar 1981)  collection
MINDKILLER              Holt, Rinehart, Winston (Sep 1982)  novel
    [expanded from "God Is an Iron"]
MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS             Penguin Books [Canada] (1984)
                                                            collection
  [adds 2 more stories]          Tor Books      (May 1985)
NIGHT OF POWER                   Baen Books     (May 1985)  novel

    Short Fiction:

"The Guy with the Eyes"         ANALOG  (Feb 1973)
"The Time-Traveler"             ANALOG  (Apr 1974)
"The Dreaming Dervish"          FANTASTIC  (May 1974)
"When No Man Pursueth"          ANALOG  (Nov 1974)
"The Law of the Conservation of Pain"
                                VERTEX  (Dec 1974)
"Nobody Likes to Be Lonely"     GALAXY  (Mar 1975)
"Two Heads Are Better Than One" ANALOG  (May 1975)
"Overdose"                      GALAXY  (Sep 1975)
"Unnatural Causes or The Guy We Couldn't Help"
                                ANALOG  (Oct 1975)
"A Voice is Heard in Ramah..."  ANALOG  (Nov 1975)
"It's a Sunny Day"              GALAXY  (Jan 1976)
"Half an Oaf"                   ANALOG ANNUAL  (Apr 1976)  [Ben Bova]
"By Any Other Name"             ANALOG  (Nov 1976)
    [expanded into the novel TELEMPATH]
"No Renewal"                    GALAXY  (Mar 1977)
"Stardance"                     ANALOG  (Mar 1977)
    [with Jeanne Robinson]
"The Centipede's Dilemma"       CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON (Jun 1977)
"Just Dessert"                  CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON (Jun 1977)
"Tin Ear"                       COSMOS  (Jul 1977)
"The Magnificent Conspiracy"    CHRYSALIS [1]  (Aug 1977)
                                [Roy Torgeson]
"Dog Day Evening"               ANALOG  (Oct 1977)
"Mirror/rirroM, Off the Wall"   ANALOG  (Nov 1977)
"Too Soon We Grow Old"          ANALOG YEARBOOK [1]  (Mar 1978)
                                [Ben Bova]
"Apogee"                        BOREALIS [#1]  (Summer 1978)
    [BOREALIS is a small-press magazine]
"Stardance II"                  ANALOG  (Sep, Oct, Nov 1978)
    [with Jeanne Robinson]
"Antinomy"                      DESTINIES  (Nov/Dec 1978)
   [mispelled as "Antimony" throughout its original appearance]
"Satan's Children"              NEW VOICES II  (Feb 1979)
                                    [George R. R. Martin]
"Local Champ"                   CHRYSALIS 4  (Feb 1979)
                                [Roy Torgeson]
"God is an Iron"                OMNI    (May 1979)
    [expanded into the novel MINDKILLER]
"Fivesight"                     OMNI    (Jul 1979)
"Soul Search"                   OMNI    (Dec 1979)
"Have You Heard the One...?"    ANALOG  (Jun 1980)
"Serpent's Teeth"               OMNI    (Mar 1981)
"Chronic Offender"              THE TWILIGHT ZONE  (May 1981)
"Pyotr's Story"                 ANALOG  (12 Oct 1981)
"The Missing Verse"             FIFTY EXTREMELY S(HORT) F(ICTION)
                                 STORIES (1982) [Michael Bastraw]
"Melancholy Elephants"          ANALOG  (Jun 1982)
"Not Fade Away"                 IASFM   (Aug 1982)
"Rubber Soul"                   THE BEST OF OMNI SCIENCE FICTION No. 4
                                (1982) [Ben Bova & Don Myrus]
"High Infidelity"               OUI     (Apr 1983)
"Involuntary Man's Laughter"    ANALOG  (Dec 1983)
"The Blacksmith's Tale"         ANALOG  (Dec 1985)

Robinson is also reportedly one of a few authors who have written
various items under the house name "B.D. Wyatt" [an anagram of
"why'd he buy it?"].  We don't know which of the Wyatt items he may
have written or even if he has confirmed that he did indeed write
any of this. At any rate, these are the only two B. D. Wyatt items
that are short stories:

"Ambiguous Oracle"              GALAXY  (Jan 1976)
"Want Ad"                       GALAXY  (May 1976)

Thanks to Jerry Boyajian (who else?!) for providing most of this
list.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: A TRAVELLER IN TIME
Date: 5 Mar 86 16:17:34 GMT

                A TRAVELLER IN TIME by Alison Uttley
                             Ace, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

    In order to regain her strength after an illness, an adolescent
girl is sent to her aunt's ancient farmhouse in the English
countryside.  She falls under the spell of the house, at first only
seeing people from Elizabethan times, but later traveling back in
time herself.  She falls in love and becomes involved in a plot to
save Mary, Queen of Scots.

    Uttley's writing style reminds one of the beauty of the English
countryside but the book, though not labeled as such, appears to be
aimed at a juvenile audience, since none of the character's show the
development an adult reader might hope for.  As such, however, it is
recommended for younger audiences, particularly those who have just
studied the era in school.

    Two other notes--the book was originally written in 1939, which
may explain the style.  The spelling of the title is as it is on the
book (perhaps the British preference is "traveller" instead of
"traveler"?).

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 6 Mar 86 14:37:40 GMT

I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories.  Shortly after
the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, which I
enjoyed immensely.  I could never get into the BotNS, though, for a
couple of reasons.  WHen I got _Free Live Free_ a few months ago, I
had hoped that things would be different.  Alas, I have temporarily
given up it, about halfway through.

   Wolfe's style always seems to get to me after a few hundred
pages.  I can take it in small doses, but the prospect of page after
page of it stretching out before me always makes me faintly queasy.
_Free Live Free_ manages to overcome this by a certain lightness
which is more like his short stories.  The BotNS, though, moves
along with the ponderous grace of the Vehicle Tranporter pulling
away from the VAB.  Also, the odd word trick doesn't work for me.
SInce it's such a high-wire act, one slip ruins it, and when I ran
across "palaquin" used in the wrong context, the spell was broken.
Not caring for the subject matter all that much anyway, I've never
seriously attempted to pick it up again.

Its certainly true that Wolfe requires rather deliberate and careful
reading.  That's partly why I haven't finished _Free Live Free_;
things have gotten in the way and I haven't had the time to devote
to it.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: BRAZIL
Date: 5 Mar 86 16:14:43 GMT

                               BRAZIL
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

         Capsule review: This is the best science fiction film
     of 1985.  But catch this story of an Orwellian future quickly
     --it won't be around for long.

     1984 never came.  At least, not the way that George Orwell
pictured it in 1984.  The book was his prediction from the viewing
point of 1948 of what the next 36 years could bring.  It is a moot
point how accurate his prediction was, but the book is still a
valuable yardstick for measuring our current world.  It has been a
valuable yardstick for years.  BRAZIL is a new film.  It does not
have the track record of having been useful for years.  However, it
also seems to be a prediction from the viewpoint of 1948 of how the
world could have turned out and today it is no less valuable than
1984 as a yardstick for measuring today's society.

     In the world of BRAZIL technology has stagnated.  The lords of
creation are a megalithic bureaucracy and, apparently, the people
who make heating ducts.  All the technology in the world is
refinements of inventions that were around at the end of World War
II.  (One exception, I think, is the Fresnel lens, but for society
to have changed so much and for only one invention to come along is
a rather telling indictment of this political system.)  This is a
paper-bound society in which the path to getting the smallest thing
done has the form in a triangle.  The greatest public enemy is a man
who does repairs without red tape.

     In this world one minor official, one Sam Lowry, has abstract
dreams of escaping the dingy crush of government world and flying
free with his ideal woman.  These fantasies have sapped Lowry's will
to get ahead at the dismal Ministry of Information.  When he finds
that the woman he has been dreaming of really exists, he starts
fighting the mournful inertia of the society to try to find her.

     Terry Gilliam seems to have for some time wanted to do in live
action the sort of things he did in animation for MONTY PYTHON.  He
nearly succeeded in TIME BANDITS, but the script of that film was
extremely uneven.  This time he co-authored the script with Tom
Stoppard, considered to be one of the greatest living playwrights.
And the choice of Stoppard paid off.  For the first time in his
career, Gilliam was not just making people laugh, he was telling a
story of substance.  Instead of just joking about the meaning of
life, Gilliam is now actually saying something about it.

     Jonathan Pryce, who oozed malevolence in SOMETHING WICKED THIS
WAY COMES, carries the film as San Lowry.  Also on hand are familiar
faces like Robert De Niro, Ian Holm, Katherine Helmond, and Michael
Palin.  This film gets a +2 for pleasure, but on the -4 to +4 scale
it can get nothing less than a +3 for artistic achievement.  This
was the best science fiction film of 1985.  A recent FILM COMMENT
takes Universal to task for releasing STICK, JAMES JOYCE'S WOMEN,
CREATOR, MORONS FROM OUTER SPACE, DREAM CHILD, WILD GEESE II, and
HOLOCAUST COVENANT in 1985, while deciding BRAZIL was unreleasable.
Universal is absolutely right.  A film this good probably will not
attract enough of the teenage audience to make it profitable.  It
will play at your local art theater a week and then disappear, like
SMILE or STUNT MAN.  And just like these films, people will be
rediscovering BRAZIL for years to come.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: "The Beast Master" Movie
Date: 5 Mar 86 20:36:30 GMT

tainter@ihlpg.UUCP (Tainter) writes:
>>         By the way, those same sources tell me that *another*
>> Norton book is being prepared for filming(they now have the first
>> draft of the script and a financing contract from a studio) This
>> time Andre Norton has retained creative control the script will
>> not be used unless she approves of it. So it should be very good.
>
>Don't be too sure.  I understand F. Herbert retained creative
>control of DUNE and look at the abomination that was.

        It is not just that that gives me confidence in the new
film.  I know the man who is putting the package together, and I
trust his judgement in these matters. He is a film professional with
a strong commitment to quality in Science Fiction films. Also, I
know one of the technical advisors being used on the film, and in
his area of expertise he is very good. Also, I have heard excerpts
from the script, and was suitably impressed. Of course enough
pressure from the studio to make it conform to "standard" SF film
style could still ruin it. If that happens, I will hear about it
plenty fast.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen
ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 86 11:23 CST
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS WHERE ARE YOU?

Hello out there.  Is anybody listening?

It seems (by the lack of digests) that the subscribers to SF-LOVERS
have run out of things to say (or flame about).  Now I know that I
am not a volumnous contributor to SF-LOVERS, but I really enjoy
reading the comments/criticisms of others.  As was stated in an
earlier digest, I look for those whose opinions about science
fiction parallel my own.  Then when a comment is made about a
book/movie/TV program/etc. I can have a fairly good idea if I will
enjoy it.

Speaking of enjoying things, I really enjoy Amazing Stories.  To
date I have found very little to complain about.  In fact so little
that it isn't even worth bothering the net with it.

Looking forward to hearing from SF-LOVERS,

I remain

Steve
DOET.AFCC@AFCC.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 86 0959-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:

              Administrivia - Apologies,
              Books - Coney & Norton & Pohl (2 msgs) &
                      Pratchett & Wolfe (2 msgs) & 
                      Sime/Gen (2 msgs) & Nebula Winners Books,
              Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (2 msgs),
              Television - Robotech & Blake's 7,
              Miscellaneous - A Short Story

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 86 09:32:43 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: My Apologies

   Greetings fellow sf-lovers.  I am writing this message to you
because I feel that I owe each and every one of the readers of this
digest an apology.  I know you are all suffering acute symptoms of
withdrawal because you haven't seen a digest in a long time.  There
are many reasons for this: vacation, illness, business trips, mail
problems, etc.  but I know none of this makes you feel any better.
    Because things happened so fast I was unable to make
arrangements for someone to handle the list while I was away and
because I was away I didn't realize that there had been mailer
problems.  In any case, I am back now and barring unforseen
circumstances, the digest will continue and it is as strong as it
ever was.  There are a lot of back messages to clear out of the
queue and I will get these all out to you as soon as possible.
        Enjoy reading!!!

Saul

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: MIRROR IMAGE by Michael G. Coney (mild spoiler)
Date: 4 Mar 86 23:08:44 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "If an alien life form can adapt to human shape and emotions and
  actually believes itself to be human, does that make it a man?
  That was one of the problems confronting the colonists on Marilyn
  when they discovered the shape-changing amorphs. At first the
  creatures were used simply as a labour force, then an experiment
  produced a super-amorph--and a rebellion. And out of that came
  something else, something with galaxy-shaking implications: an
  amorph female gave birth to a baby that would think no evil...  to
  a new messiah?"

The jacket description is very misleading in that it covers events
from the beginning to the end of the novel, leading the reader to
think that the birth mentioned occurs early enough to figure into
the plot. It doesn't.

All of the action takes place on the newly-colonized planet Marilyn.
The conditions there and the behavior of the colonists seem quite
believable.

The main characters portrayed are somewhat stereotyped: dedicated
supervisor, greedy and egotistical tycoon, long-suffering girl
friend, eccentric scientist, and so on.

The investigation into the nature of the amorphs is very
interesting, mainly from the psychological and sociological
standpoints. The story kept me well entertained until around the
last quarter, and that last part isn't bad; it just doesn't measure
up to what precedes it.

I give this book 3.0 stars (very good). I don't hesitate to
recommend it to others to read, but it's not a book I'd keep
permanently.

By the way, this was Mr. Coney's first book (copyright 1972).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: New Norton Movie
Date: 8 Mar 86 00:14:03 GMT

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>tainter@ihlpg.UUCP (Tainter) writes:
>>   By the way, those same sources tell me that *another* Norton
>> book is being prepared for filming(they now have the first draft
>
>I have heard excerpts from the script, and was suitably impressed.

Did I miss it, or are you keeping the name of the movie/book
secret??? I'm DYING to know which story it is!!

Henry Chai ( guest on suran@utcsri )
{utzoo,ihnp4,allegra,decwrl}!utcsri!utflis!chai
chai%utflis@TORONTO

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
Date: 6 Mar 86 16:37:58 GMT

ctj@msudoc.UUCP (Chris Johnson) writes:
> Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
>
> Opinion: Frederik Pohl has written a book which I feel ranks with
> Gulliver's Travel's.  The satire is very strong but presented in a
> manor calculated to entertain.  The story flows well without ever
> becoming bogged down.  Even though you KNOW, that the author is
> preaching at you, it never seems to become overbearing.
>
> The hero of this little war is quite believable as he makes his
> way from an "starclass copysmith" to human.  The path is not easy
> but the trials Tarb encounters never quite destroy him.  Some of
> the wonderful things in this world of tomorrow (today?:_) which
> Tarb must deal with include: Being addicted to Mokie (aka Coke) via
> a new advertising methods; Joining the army to help "civilize" the
> aborigine tribes; And dealing with "Veenies" patriots who have a
> hard time understanding advertisements at all.
>
> Everything considered, I would recommend "The Merchants' War" to
> anyone who has ever had to watch thirty min. of commercials for
> twenty min. of a good movie on the reruns.

Apparently you have never read much Pohl (or more correctly Pohl and
Kornbluth) as this is the sequel to "Space Merchants" written over
20 years ago.  Why it took so long, I do not know.  Since it has
been quite a long time since I read Space Merchants, I do not know
how much of SM's plot carried over to the new book.

Back to writing lists of books.....

Bill

------------------------------

From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
Date: 7 Mar 86 16:47:15 GMT

Would someone knowledgeable care to comment on the relationship
between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic
_The_Space_Merchants_?

Norman Ramsey
norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: "new group..."
Date: 7 Mar 86 23:57:48 GMT

   I think there should be more discussion of fantasy books on the
net. How 'bout this to start things off:
   What are some good recent fantasy books? I just read 'The Colour
of Magic' by Terry Prattchet (I think that's how its spelled).  It
was a fine humorous story.

Steve Anich
anich@puff.UUCP

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Wolfe the best?
Date: 5 Mar 86 15:00:17 GMT

>....  Philip Dick is also wonderful, but he's not writing much
>these days....

How do you know?  Just because he's not getting much published
doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.)  Maybe the
mail service is not very efffective from where he is?

>....  (One of my favorite small things about all the authors
>mentioned above is that they don't feel a need to barrage their
>readers with unpronounceable names for characters and places; they
>have far less stagey ways of conveying alienness.)

On the other hand, expecting alien races with alien physiologies to
have nice easily-pronouncable names is pretty blatantly
species-chauvinistic.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: `Funny Words' in TBOTNS
Date: 6 Mar 86 17:39:42 GMT

pete@stc.co.uk writes:
>[these "funny words"] are all from `The Shadow of the Torturer'.

I'm rather surprised noone's mentioned this, but in THE CASTLE OF
THE OTTER, an excellent book he wrote about TBotNS and its writing,
Wolfe includes a five-or-six page list of words from SotT.  I won't
post it as it's copyright, but the book is available in an SFBC
edition.  Recommended.

Dan'l Oakes

------------------------------

From: udenva!fcarmody@caip.rutgers.edu (Prince Caspian)
Subject: Where are the Sime fans?
Date: 7 Mar 86 20:18:22 GMT

I posted an article on an excellent post-holocaust/special mutation
series a while back and recieved absolutely *no* response.  The last
volume of the series which I have picked up has a report of *at
least three* flourishing underground publications...ergo there
*must* be somebody out there who enjoys it....  So where are the
Sime fans?

The series is group-titled "the Sime/Gen Universe" and is written by
(so far) Jaqueline Lichtenberg (sp?) and Jean Lorrah.

Titles so far include:

House of Zeor
Unto Zeor, Forever
First Channel
Mahogany Trinrose (out of print)
Channel's Destiny
Rensime!
Ambrov Keon

These are all that I have heard of so far.  Forthcoming titles are
many and include *Sime from Gen Divided*, which is a pivot-point in
the series.

I *know* you're out there... If you've read them, *talk to me*!  If
you haven't and you like post-holocaust, mutants, or just a well-
executed universe, enjoy!

Prince Caspian of Narnia, AKA Francis X. Carmody
Electronic Adress (UUcp only:{hplabs,seismo}!hao!udenva!fcarmody}
OR: {boulder,cires,denelcor,cisden}!udenva!fcarmody

------------------------------

From: cisden!phillips@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Phillips)
Subject: Re: Where are the Sime fans?
Date: 7 Mar 86 23:19:36 GMT

I read one of these (maybe the first?) when I was in high school,
and I really enjoyed the book.  I haven't read any since because I
haven't seen them.  Now that I have the names of the authors I will
look harder.

Tommy Phillips
cisden!phillips

------------------------------

From: rayssd!hlg@caip.rutgers.edu (Harry L. Goldenbloome)
Subject: Nebula Award Winners
Date: 6 Mar 86 21:40:36 GMT

I recently called Bantam books in New York and asked about the 19th
issue of Nebula Award Winners, the paper back version. They said
they weren't going to produce one nor were they going to produce a
20th. There is always the Hard Cover version I guess but for
consistancy I would like to see the paper back version. Does anybody
know why Bantam is not producing it (they wouldn't give me a reason)
and is some obscure publishing house going to produce it?

Harry Goldenbloome,
Raytheon Co,
Submarine Signal Div., 1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871
{allegra, decvax!brunix, ccice5}!rayssd!hlg

------------------------------

From: tracy@ism780
Subject: Re: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordin
Date: 6 Mar 86 18:37:00 GMT

I have recordings of the first 6 episodes in my possesion at home.
I can post you the labels of the recording company if you wish.  If
any one else knows where additional episodes can be found, let me
know becuase the radio series was always the best of the HHGttG
series, surpassing the books and the TV series both.

------------------------------

From: ncoast!tomt@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas N. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers
Date: 7 Mar 86 04:50:43 GMT

The records are available from Hannibal Records.  As is explained on
the sleeve the records are not duplicates of the book or BBC
broadcast, but are still quite enjoyable.  The albums are titled
_The Hithchikers Guide to the Galaxy / Part One_ and part two.  Part
one is Hannibal HNBL 2301 and I believe my copy came from Canada.
Hannibal's address is

        Hannibal Records Inc.
        611 Broadway Suite 415
        New York, NY 10012

Tom Tucker  tomt@ncoast

------------------------------

From: watmath!mwtilden@caip.rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware)
Subject: ROBOTECH Back Episode Responses: Hello?
Date: 6 Mar 86 16:52:46 GMT

Hi,

A month ago (feb 5) I sent out a request for ROBOTECH back episodes
on beta format tape.

A word of thanx to everyone who sent me info on the series and other
Japanimation classics. However, seeing as I've gotten no response
mail to the answers I sent out, I'm wondering if it might have
something to do with my mail server.

Has anybody heard from me? I'm pretty sure postnews works at least
and thus this message. And no, I still don't have the tapes. (First
17 episodes)

Talk to me someone!

Mark Tilden
<watmath@uucp>

or by snail at...
                251 Erb St. W. #5
                Waterloo, Ontario.
                Canada.
                N2L-1V8

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu (ix312)
Subject: Blake's 7, background info wanted
Date: 8 Mar 86 06:12:49 GMT

I have recently seen an episode of Blake's 7 on KPBS in San Diego.
I thought it was really quite good.  The technical aspects and plot
development are a lot like Doctor Who, though this particular story
line did come right out of Star Trek.

Anyway, what I like to know is if anyone out there knows the show
and can give me some information on it, such as who are these
people? how did they get together? and why?  Just what is the basic
plot line and any background on the characters.  (I was able to
figure out that Blake and his crew are the good guys.)  Also, Blake
and his crew only total to six, who is number 7?

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Possibly a first for sf-lovers
Date: 5 Mar 86 19:02:32 GMT

                         Psychosis Carsoma

   Empty the Building, dark the Night. I turned, and as I turned, I
fired, but it was only a dream. The shadows made the Building look
featureless, bad as it really was. I met my contact under the
WALKDONTWALK sign, but the people weren't there, the cars neither,
and it was only a dream. The music was louder than I remembered it,
all on one line, shattering against my coat. Suddenly, it had been
raining for several hours, and my contact dripped into the air.
  "You're late." he said.
  "Of course I'm late. It's these damn nightmares I keep having. I'm
having one now, so talk fast."
   He swung around and pointed towards the Building.
  "There. They're waiting for you in there. The door'll become
clearer as you approach. Now vamoose - and you didn't see me, this
meeting didn't take place."
   I moved towards the Building, its oak doors filling out as I
reached to knock. Soundless, they swung in

   sweating. The bedclothes swept away and I looked around. It was
night.  With shaking hands, I took one of the pills I'd kidded
myself I wouldn't need, swallowing it like a stone. I was back in
the Building, trudging up the stairs past the stuffed animal heads,
each one reminding me where I'd seen it killed. As I reached the
top, the line ended. It ended with an empty plaque, a name and
number on it that should have been mine - for all I knew, it might
be. The ultimate insult - my head up here with a stranger's name.
They were like that, fond of their unappreciated little jokes. There
was only one door, at the end of the corridor, slightly ajar.  I
knew what was beyond it, so I ignored it and went back down the
stairs to the front door, which I opened. The trap was complete - it
was her office.
  "Take a seat," she cruelly said, and sat behind a desk.
  "Well," I said, "I'm wanted dead; by you, and no-one else."
   The file she opened was red with blood from her slashed wrists
which still dripped at intervals. She drew out the single piece of
paper within, scanning it efficiently. After a pause, she looked up
at me.
  "Why do you hate women so much?"
   I stood to attention.
  "My mother was a bitch. Ma'am."
  "I see. A valid enough reason. Why did you kill me?"
  "You took away my pride. Miss."
   She nodded wisely.
  "One final question. Why do you relive my death in nightmares like
these?"
  "Guilt. It's my punishment, punishment for your perfect murder
that I committed. Your body's been buried in the churchyard if you
want it."
   Still she was calm.
  "That'll be all, then. You can wake up now."
   I woke up, catching myself in the unconscious act of reaching for
another pill.

cut here

        I woke up this morning - and thought, what about some sf in
sf-lovers?  So here is what *I* consider to be my best short story.
No snide comments, though I'd welcome constructive thoughts. Also,
if there's a net.fiction or its equivalent, I apologize. (Stop
grovelling, Ramsay, these people are your friends...)

Edging slowly off to one side,
        R. Ramsay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 86 1025-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:

            Books - Benford & Eddings & Feist (3 msgs) &
                    Herbert (2 msgs) & Hogan & Wolfe &
                    Biographies,
            Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (3 msgs),
            Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & Amazing Stories,
            Miscellaneous - Quote Source & Conventions (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Caplinger)
Subject: HEART OF THE COMET, by Benford and Brin
Date: 10 Mar 86 00:55:43 GMT

This book disappointed me.  A capsule synposis would be IN THE OCEAN
OF NIGHT meets STARTIDE RISING.  I was surprised at how the flavor
and favorite plots of the authors came through, but I don't think
they mix very well.

Basic plot: expedition to Halley's Comet in 2061 runs into trouble.
We have intelligent computers, genetically-enhanced supermen, a love
triangle, and strange lifeforms.  Time prohibits me from drawing
parallels to earlier works, but they're obvious if you've read the
above books.

By the way, is anybody disappointed in Benford?  I thought TIMESCAPE
was the best SF book about physics there ever could be, but it
seemed to be a fluke-- he hasn't written anything even half as good
since.  (ARTIFACT was just awful--it might as well not have been
SF.)

I don't recommend buying this in hardcover.  You might wait for the
paperback.  It IS well-written, competent hard SF; it just doesn't
cover much new ground or say anything terribly interesting.

Mike Caplinger (mike@bellcore.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 10 Mar 86 04:44:51-PST
From: Roger Crew <Crew@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers)

Re Belgariad:

        Sorry, guys.  I have to give this a lukewarm recommendation
at best.  Entertaining even, if you don't mind the fact that it is
completely predictable.  This might still have been good had not the
author felt compelled to stretch it out over five volumes (...this
is a disturbing trend in itself, but this flame is long enough as it
is...)

(*** SPOILER WARNING ***)

The least he could have done was to throw in a plot twist.  Yes,
just a little something unexpected, that's all I ask.  There were
all sorts of things I was hoping he would try:

        1) Have Torak turn out to have some plausible purpose of
    his own other than basic evil and nastiness (we never did get to
    see what it was the other prophecy wanted, but Eddings probably
    never bothered to try coming up with anything reasonable,
    anyway...),

        2) Provide Aldur with his own faults/evil-tendencies
    (maybe have that prologue to Volume 5 [ Torak's side of the
    story ] be true in some important respect...)

        3) Have some of the bad feeling towards Angaraks be due
    to centruies of accumulated prejudice (an episode with Garion
    running into some Murgos who weren't completely evil, vicious,
    and nasty might have been a good idea...).

        4) Plant some doubts to make us think that Garion could
    actually become like Z'akath or Chtuchik someday...  (i.e.,
    corrupted by power).  I mean that if you're going to make your
    protagonist powerful enough to blow everyone else off the face
    of the earth without any particular effort involved, you better
    do *something* to make the story interesting.

Let's face it, there were all sorts of wonderful opportunities for
some heart-rending moral dilemmas that were just thrown away (this
actually bothers me more than a bad story, namely, an o.k. story
with lots of potential that never gets realized).  It's not as if
Eddings wasn't interested in this either (witness the scenes of
anguish when people start getting killed in the big battle in Book
5).

But all we ever get are these lamentations like CeNedra's ``Gosh,
I'm raising this whole army and they're all going to get killed.
But I have to do it, 'cause the prophecy says so...''  Convenient
thing, having that prophecy to justify everything they do, ``Yup,
we're on a mission from God....''  And of course, nobody really gets
hurt (you may as well take all of the people that get killed and put
red t-shirts on them that say CANNON-FODDER (or SECURITY-GUARD if
you're into Star Trek...)).

I also have trouble with these endings in which EVERYBODY gets
MARRIED.

Notice how we're also set up for a sequel (the further adventures of
the Orb... coming soon, no doubt -- sigh, -- I'll probably end up
buying it, too).

roger

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 86 08:32 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Forthcoming Books Info Wanted

A DARKNESS AT SETHANON by Robert E. Feist is already out in
hardback.  I'm reading it now, and it looks to be up to the same
quality as the previous two novels.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 10 Mar 1986 11:23:30-PST
From: cobb%sahq.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: "MAGICIAN" IN HARDBACK

Hello,
     I'm looking for a hardback copy of "MAGICIAN" by Raymond Feist.
I don't want to get a book club edition, and I'd prefer the U. S.
edition as opposed to the English edition. If anyone has a copy they
would like to sell, please contact me by electronic mail or U. S.
Mail at :

      Ken Cobb
      1401 N. Hairston Rd. # 11-T
      Stone Mtn., GA  30083
      Phone: (404) 469-7213

     I'm not looking to pay an arm & a leg, but, I would like to
have a complete set.
     Thanks in advance,
         Ken Cobb

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Forthcoming Books Info Wanted
Date: 11 Mar 86 06:24:09 GMT

ins_adsk@jhunix.UUCP (David S Kerven) writes:
>I was wondering if anyone has any idea when the following books
>will be coming out:
>       A DARKNESS AT SETHANON by Robert E. Feist

I do not know about the others you listed, but this one is already
available, though only in hardback.  Incidentally, it is Raymond,
not Robert.  If time permits, I shall be reviewing this soon.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: chinet!blm@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad L. McKinley)
Subject: Frank Herbert!!!  Please say it isn't so!!!
Date: 8 Mar 86 10:37:37 GMT

Someone told me today that Frank Herbert recently died.  If so,
science fiction has lost in my opinion its' greatest creative
genius.  I've read the "Dune" series up through "Chapterhouse: Dune"
and I can say without question that it is THE most impressive work
I've read in science fiction.

Is this just a bad rumor?  I normally don't read this group so if
this has already been discussed I apologize.

Name  : Brad L. McKinley --- (503) 889-4321
USMail: M D R Professional Software, Inc., 915 SW 3rd Avenue,
        Ontario, OR 97914
Usenet: ihnp4!chinet!blm OR ihnp4!chinet!mdr!blm

------------------------------

From: puff!hammen@caip.rutgers.edu (Zaphod Beeblebrox)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert!!!  Please say it isn't so!!!
Date: 10 Mar 86 00:41:12 GMT

   Yes, it's true. Frank Herbert died at the University Hospital
here a couple of weeks back.  I'm not sure when or of what.

Robert J. Hammen        {ihnp4,allegra,seismo}!uwvax!puff!hammen
U. of Wisc. CS Dept.
U. of Wisc. Plasma Physics Dept.
Manta Software Corp.

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 86 15:27:43 -0200
Subject: Hogan's The Proteus Operation

I wonder if anyone can tell me whether James P. Hogan's The Proteus
Operation has come out in paperback, and if not, is it supposed to
come out soon?

Thank you,

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:          eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:  eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:            ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 1986 09:48-PST
Subject: Book of the New Sun series
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

I am a fairly new subscriber to SF-Lovers so if my request was asked
& answered before vol.11#30, please repeat it.  It sounds as though
with all the contraversy about what do people see in Wolfe's Book of
the New Sun series that I should dip into it.  Can anyone give me
the order that BotNS should be read in.  Is the series still being
published or did Wolfe wrap it up?  I will appreciate the complete
listing of titles.

Faye

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Requesting Autobiographies/Biographies of SF Authors
Date: 8 Mar 86 05:46:05 GMT

I've just finished reading _The Way the Future Was_, Frederik Pohl's
memoir, and I'm interested in reading others, particularly any that
concentrate on the technique of writing.  Please reply via mail if
possible.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA  (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
FISHNET:  ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ugthomas@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers
Date: 8 Mar 86 22:25:37 GMT

>I have the first two books (Hitchhikers and Restaurant) on
>cassette.  I know that the records exists (that's where I got my
>tapes), but they are hard to find.

If you say you have the first 2 books on tape, then you (probably)
dont have the original broadcasts.  I do not believe that they were
separated then into three parts corresponding to the three books; in
fact they are *quite* different after you get 1/2 into the tapes.

Timothy D. Thomas                 SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugthomas
CSnet: ugthomas@buffalo,   ARPAnet: ugthomas%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: Mon 10 Mar 86 11:02:56-PST
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: HHGttG radio show vs. the records

I have the records.  They're quite fun, but they're not the BBC
radio show.  The radio series was edited down and re-recorded for
the records; I believe the reason had something to do with copyright
infringement.

A word to anyone who tries to tape them: if you're using 90-minute
cassettes, be sure you have an extra-long 90-minute cassette; if you
don't, you'll wind up a couple of minutes short.  I know -- I tried
it.

Lynn
UUCP: ...lll-crg!figmo
ARPA: Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM

------------------------------

Subject: Hitch-hicker
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 86 20:19:22 -0500
From: E. Wesley Miller Jr. <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>

There are 2 two-albumn sets that make up the HHGTTG and TRATEOTU.
They are produced by HANNIBAL RECORDS, 611 Broadway, Suite 415, New
York, New York 10012. The albumn numbers are HNBL2301 and HNBL 1307,
the first albumn is 2301. These are taken from the BBC Radio 4
series. Peter Jones is the voice of THE BOOK, Simon Jones as Arthur
Dent, Stephen Moore as Marvin, the Paranoid Android, and also the
Whale, the Barman, Benjy Mouse, Shooty and Gag Halfrunt, and all
those others that we have known and loved, etc., etc.  As you can
tell I have the albumns. Unfortunately, the first albumn (2301) only
contains the first 2/3 of HHGTTG. The last 1/3 is on albumn 2 (1307)
with TRATEOTG. With the above numbers, one should be able to order
these from your standard mark I record store.  I also have a
Canadian address if anyone would like it.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 10 Mar 1986 08:12:02-PST
From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Companions of Dr. Who written out.

Most faithful of Dr. Who's companions, K9, was also written out of
the show, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth by true Dr. Who fans
everywhere.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 86 08:02 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Dr Who and Peri

I just saw my first episode with Peri (this weekend).  It had Colin
Baker as the Dr, and took place on Varos (previously a prison
planet?  complete with televised punishments and executions!).  I
don't know if it was a lack of chemistry, poor script, or what; but,
I was negatively impressed with "Peri".  I am willing, however, to
wait and watch more episodes to see how (if?) her character develops
into something other than a nagging, simpering bowl of jello.  Good
grief!  That sounds so harsh--maybe my weekend was worse than I
thought!  I don't remember her having even any "bad one-liners" let
alone any good ones!  (The Dr had a couple of okay to fair
one-liners.)  I'll have to wait for the rerun and watch that one
over again...maybe it was because I was trying to bring my
computerized checkbook up to date!?!
                                  Roz

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS WHERE ARE YOU?
Date: 10 Mar 86 19:48:27 GMT

DOET@AFCC-3.ARPA@caip.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>Speaking of enjoying things, I really enjoy Amazing Stories.  To
>date I have found very little to complain about.  In fact so little
>that it isn't even worth bothering the net with it.

Are you talking about the MAGAZINE Amazing Stories, or the
TELEVISION SERIES?

My wife and I stopped watching Amazing Stories after the nth story
about misunderstood kids in various forms and flavours. We prefer
more adult flavours in our anthologies, like Twilight Zone....

A case in point: Both series did "Three Wishes" sketches. In the
Amazing Stories version, three kids catch a leprechaun who grants
them three wishes, one each. They wish for the ability to see
through girl's clothing, the ability to control their parents, and a
"state-of-the-art" car. Very pedestrian, very predictable.

"Twilight Zone" showed a more realistic version, where a woman
wishes to be rich, beautiful, and to make her ex impotent.... and
how she is thwarted at every turn by bureaucracy. At one point, her
"wish consultant" had her sign disclaimers stating that "the first
wish usually turns out okay, the second isn't quite what you wanted,
and the third is usually used to undo the first two."

Bruce Holloway
....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Here's the Quote, What's the Title?
Date: 08 Mar 86 03:33:37 PST (Sat)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

>  The situation: two characters in the story are having a
>  discussion (about sabotage?). One of them says to the other that
>  you can design a system which will safeguard against anticipated
>  error conditions [here's the quote]
>
>  "... but you can't design a system that's proof against
>  deliberate malice."

I can't be sure without more context, but this looks as if it came
from an Asimov short story.  And as I've read rather a lot of those,
I'd be hard pressed to say which one.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu (ix312)
Subject: CON locations
Date: 8 Mar 86 07:18:58 GMT

The problem is that I keep missing the local CONs held in and about
San Diego.  I don't have the time or money to even think about
WorldCon or any other large convention, but I keep hearing about
smaller (and less expensive) ones held nearby.  Is there any listing
anywhere of the smaller, local sf-conventions?  I am particularly
interested in San Diego to LA area.  If anyone knows of any coming
up I'd appreciate hearing about them. Or if you know of an easy way
to find out that, too, would be helpful.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 10 Mar 86 10:13:45-PST
From: Robert Pratt <P.PRATT%LOTS-A@LOTS-A>
Subject: Worldcon '86

Could someone please post an address for getting information about
Worldcon '86( i.e. tickets, hotels, events, etc.).

Thanx,
Bob P.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 10 Mar 1986 08:32:51-PST
From: cobb%sahq.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Rooms at Worldcon

     Chattacon has contracted for all the rooms in the DOWNTOWNER
(which is directly across the street from the Marriot). The rooms
will be $54.00 a night including tax. Rooms are available on a first
come first serve basis.
     For information write to:

       Chattacon Worldcon Rooms
       P. O. Box 921
       Hixson, TN  37343

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 86 1119-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:

         Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Card & Eddings (2 msgs) &
                 Feist & Pohl (2 msgs) & Wolfe (2 msgs) & 
                 Zelazny & Sime,
         Films - Star Trek IV,
         Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide,
         Television - Star Trek,
         Miscellaneous - Renaissance Art & Conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 11:41:10-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Jhereg Universe Query

Since Steven Brust seems to have an account again, I hope he will be
able to answer this question without giving away any details he
would rather not yet disclose.

It seems that Jhereg is the result of experience with some sort of
fantasy roleplaying, at least, the availability of resurrection,
magic weapons, and so on would seem to indicate so. If this is so, I
would be interested in hearing something about the "game" that
Jhereg may have come from -- was it an "orthodox" refereed
dice-rolling game, or a more free-form roleplaying environment, or
what?

If Jhereg really did come from such a setting, then I would say it
was the first successful piece of fiction to come from a roleplaying
world, all others being rather ghastly renderings of the
pseudo-medieval setting that seems common in these games. Oh wait, I
liked DREAM PARK, but then, that was was really science fiction....

Laurence

------------------------------

From: scgvaxd!nt11777@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace
Date: 10 Mar 86 21:19:50 GMT

>From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) <DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU>
>It seemed to me that the story was really about revolution.

Revolution, hmmmmm.  I Hadn't thought of it that way but your
examples do seem to fit well.  I think the main theme involved was
how people try their dam**st to look the other way and refuse to
acknowledge their problems.  I think Brust was saying we need not
fear change and should embrace it.

I also liked Brokedown Palace but haven't read any other Brust (I
picked up BP only because someone else on the net said they'd
enjoyed it).  You imply BP is a little different that previous
Brust, would you also recommend the others (Jhereg and Yendi, I
believe)?

Neal

------------------------------

From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner)
Subject: Re: Wolfe the best?
Date: 7 Mar 86 21:19:19 GMT

I would recommend anything by Orson Scott Card.  He has mainly been
published in short story form but has a few very good novels out.
Look for:

        Enders Game
        Planet of Solitude  (I think)
        Back Issues of OMNI mag
          (Includes the Classic _Unaccompanied_Sonata_)

He is very close to being on Wolfe's level and may very well surpass
him over time, considering how short a time he has been writing (5
years?).

Matt Verner
AT&T Consumer Products Laboratories     AT&T:  (317) 845-3631
P. O. Box 1008
Indianapolis, IN  46206
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers)
Date: 11 Mar 86 17:26:08 GMT

Roger Crew writes:
>       Sorry, guys.  I have to give this a lukewarm
> recommendation at best.  Entertaining even, if you don't mind the
> fact that it is completely predictable.  This might still have
> been good had not the author felt compelled to stretch it out over
> five volumes (...this is a disturbing trend in itself, but this
> flame is long enough as it is...)

I liked the 'Belgariad' but I must agree with your criticism. The
book was predictable at times and the story was much to long.
Episodes like the the summoning of the demons had little to do with
the story line and seemed only existant to make the story longer. He
could have used many variations off the the standard 'mission from
God' theme to make a clasic story instead of just making a good
story. A big problem is just that most 'epic' fantasies have
absolute qualities in there world. The hero's deity is absolutly
good, The deity's opposite is absolutely evil. The young hero truds
along to fullfill a prophecy in which he becomes uncorruptable at
its conclusion. (I did just read a novel that threw these out -- it
was called ** Sagamore's Curse ** ,but it isn't the size of a
multi-volumed story). I wish somebody would write a good story that
examened the various shades of gray.

> I also have trouble with these endings in which EVERYBODY gets
> MARRIED.

So did I. Eddings went overboard with the marriages( something more
familiar in say, Heinlein's more recent novels).

Steve Anich
anich@puff.UUCP

------------------------------

From: andromeda!pete@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter Farabaugh)
Subject: Belgariad (slight spoilers)
Date: 13 Mar 86 00:17:31 GMT

   I have to put in my own two cents about the Belgariad. Most of
what was said about the books was true. Yes it was predictable, yes
it was classic Good/Evil (I suggest Donaldson for people who love
grey areas, it is full of them and a damn fine story to boot {set
deflector shields to full, sulu, incoming flames}, or The fist Xanth
book, A Spell For Chamaelon, in which the alignments of the
characters are fuzzy), and it had a lot of unneeded stuff in it. But
putting that aside it was a very enjoyable book in which Eddings has
created several very real and very interesting characters. The
personalities and these and the interactions between them are what
make these books such a pleasure to read. The way it is told through
the confused and young eyes of Garion is charming. His view of the
world is actually more interesting than if it werew told through a
great hero or mage. Silk, my personal favorite, is highly
reminiscent of The Grey Mouser or Jhary-a-conel. His remarks are
always both bitingly sarcastic and uproariously funny. His dialogue
as he pushes brill off the wall is a prime ewxample of this. I could
babble on about this for pages but I wont. Each character adds
something to the book and trhe way that the work together is
brilliant. I give it my highest recommentdation as one of the most
readable and enjoyable books to come along in a long time. I for one
am eagerly awaiting the sequel.

Peter Farabaugh

------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 11:31:49-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: coming books?
To: ins_adsk@JHUNIX.BITNET

Raymond Feist's A DARKNESS AT SETHANON is out in hardback. I found
it a rather fun and satisfying conclusion to his Magician trilogy
EXCEPT for the last few pages, which seem to let our heroes (and the
multiverse) survive by deus ex machina, or blind luck, whichever is
more appropriate.

Laurence

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
Date: 11 Mar 86 00:21:15 GMT

> Would someone knowledgable care to comment on the relationship
> between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic
> _The_Space_Merchants_?

I recently read both "The Space Merchants" and "The Merchant's War"
when the SFBC made them available in a 2-in-1 printing. The
original, "The Space Merchants", is very fun, a biting satire of the
advertising industry, well written, and at least as valid as social
commentary now as it was when it was written <mumble> years ago.
"The Merchant's War" is a pale attempt to recreate the magic of the
original, and I think Pohl tries too hard to write biting sarcasm --
the result is plodding and strident. In case it isn't obvious, I
don't like the new book. Go read the original, my boy, and sequel no
more.....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.ARPA                           FidoNet: 125/84
{decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough)
Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
Date: 12 Mar 86 02:05:21 GMT

>Would someone knowledgable care to comment on the relationship
>between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic
>_The_Space_Merchants_?

Ok, TMW is two (two! two! books in one!) books in one binding.  Part
One IS _The Space Merchants_, and part Two is the sequel.  I haven't
seen the sequel (sorry, the (sub)title escapes me) published
separately.  Maybe the publisher thought that understanding the
sequel depended too much on having read TSM, or maybe TSM was out of
print.  The sequel didn't seem *to*me* (hint: opinion) to be as good
as TSM, but I can still recommend it.  (I've been recommending
_The_Space_Merchants_ for years as required reading for anyone
considering a career in marketing.)

Geoffrey Kimbrough
ihnp4!allegra!ima!geoff
sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 10 Mar 86 23:25:06 GMT

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories.  Shortly after
>the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_, which
>I enjoyed immensely.

Then you should check out another collection of his stories, "The
Island Of Dr. Death And Other Stories And Other Stories," in my
opinion a collection that's superior to the "Book Of Days."

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 7 Mar 86 19:42:30 GMT

I've really been shocked at all the net-talk about how difficult it
is to read Wolfe's work.  His novel and short stories have been
absolutely spellbinding to me.  It seem as if a number of you claim
to understand fiction (let alone science fiction), yet haven't
learned to willingly suspend your disbelief.

While recently reading one of his short stories "The eyeflash
miracles" I had one of those revelations that makes you want to
abuse innocent and uncaring bystanders.  Wolfe understands that the
reader is blind.  The reader can never truly see anything, no matter
how detailed or complex the description.  The writer can only delude
his audience into believing they see and understand.  Wolfe can be
painfully truthful in his fiction.  The reader must not fix images
in his mind and rely on them as stable.

I can't believe that Wolfe is causing such a stir because he uses
difficult language.  The work in BotNS comes in not fighting the
author.  Let him take you where he wants to go.  And if you think
you were confused with BotNS, you should try one of his earlier
novels, _Peace_.

You can get lost in Wolfe's work.  Why not sit in the dark and let
Gene tell you a story.

By the way, I was just introduced to the net.
I love it.
So let's hear from y'all.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 11:31:49-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: coming books?
To: ins_adsk@JHUNIX.BITNET

If anyone knows of the next Zelazny work, I also would like to know
-- I heard that the reason for the cliffhanger in ToD was a
publisher's decision to split the work, not that Zelazny hadn't
written it yet, so it is strange that after almost a year the next
book hasn't come out.

Laurence

------------------------------

From: watdragon!smkindersley@caip.rutgers.edu (sumo kindersley)
Subject: Where are the Sime fans?
Date: 10 Mar 86 07:06:00 GMT

      Where are the Sime fans? not to mention the Gen fans!
      Here's one! I read Unto Zeor, Forever first and started
looking for others in the series.  I have only just found a couple
more, First Channel is great so far, and I am looking forward to
more. go ahead & try them. UZ,F was fine to start with but probably
most of them would be, including FC.

UUCP:   {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!watdragon!smkindersley
CSNET:  smkindersley%watdragon@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:   smkindersley%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 86 10:55 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST IV news

I had a most interesting phone conversation the other night with my
club's "Medical Officer."  She is, in fact, a nurse in real life and
her hospital has been invaded: by the STIV filming crew!  Her
hospital happens to have an empty floor, so they built a set there
(obviously for a 20th century hospital scene, from the costumes
she's seen, nurses and candystripers) and just began filming.  And
she was really thrilled to run into "Doctor McCoy" in the hallways
of her own hospital.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 1986 09:51
From: sigurd@oslo-vax        (Sigurd Meldal)
Subject: Re.: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings

(At least) two albums based on the BBC Radio 4 recordings are
available.

Names: The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy
       --------------- " ---------------- Part Two

Released on Original Records, with numbers ORA 42 and ORA 54,
respectively.

Distributed by Stage One (Records) Ltd.
               Parshire House
               2 Kings rd.
               Haslemere
               Surrey
               (Good Ol') England

(As a fallback: The address of Original Records is
        2 Bloomsbury Place
        London WC1
        England
)

Sigurd Meldal
ARPA: sigurd@oslo-vax
Hard mail: Institute of Informatics
           University of Oslo
           pob. 1080 Blindern
           N - 0316 Oslo 3
           Norway.

------------------------------

From: cbrma!karl@caip.rutgers.edu (Karl Kleinpaste)
Subject: Re: ST episode (Assignment: Earth) question
Date: 7 Mar 86 20:27:30 GMT

thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP (PUT YOUR CAT HERE) writes:
>A few minor points: Was the girl's IQ and shoesize really
>comparable?

Probably.  You should notice that the actress was Teri Garr at the
age of about 19 or so, whom you would readily recognize from Young
Frankenstein (as the sexpot assistant), Close Encounters (as Richard
Dreyfuss' wife), Mr Mom (the working wife), and other more recent
movies.  People seem to view the revelation of Garr in Star Trek
much the way they view Joan Collins' presence in `that other
episode' (no, I will not try to use an acronym), with much wonder
and amazment.

Karl Kleinpaste

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Renaissance art
Date: 9 Mar 86 22:01:25 GMT

        I would appreciate some information from any of you
Renaissance scholars in the Society For Creative Anachronism, or any
other "Ren-Fair" folks.

        A friend of mine is writing a paper on SYMBOLISM OF MUSICAL
INSTRUMENTS IN RENAISSANCE ART, and is dire need of some good
sources, or any information you netters may have.  Can someone out
there provide any leads?  Please e-mail me directly.
        Thanks very much!

Dan Barrett

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: CON locations
Date: 11 Mar 86 00:38:33 GMT

> The problem is that I keep missing the local CONs held in and
> about San Diego.  I don't have the time or money to even think
> about WorldCon or any other large convention, but I keep hearing
> about smaller (and less expensive) ones held nearby.  Is there any
> listing anywhere of the smaller, local sf-conventions?  I am
> particularly interested in San Diego to LA area.  If anyone knows
> of any coming up I'd appreciate hearing about them. Or if you know
> of an easy way to find out that, too, would be helpful.

The best con list I've found is in Locus magazine (the address is
currently packed away in a box, let me know if you want subscription
info). This is a monthly semi-prozine that acts as a newspaper to
the SF/Fantasy field.  Every two months they publish a list of every
con they have information about (which is just about every con) and
on alternate months they publish updates. Subscriptions are
something like $16 a year, and you get a lot of information for it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.ARPA                           FidoNet: 125/84
{decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 86 0954-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:

           Books - Burroughs & Cherryh & Dick (2 msgs) &
                   Kornbluth & McCaffrey & Pohl (2 msgs),
           Comics - SF Book Adaptions,
           Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide,
           Miscellaneous - Road Rally

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** Edgar Rice Burrough Books (Revised--Long List)
Date: 12 Mar 86 03:26:58 GMT

Correction per Evelyn C. Leeper.

BURROUGHS, EDGAR RICE

Tarzan:

     Tarzan of the Apes
     The Return of Tarzan
     The Beasts of Tarzan
     The Son of Tarzan
     Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar
     The Jungle Tales of Tarzan
     Tarzan the Untamed
     Tarzan the Terrible
     Tarzan and the Golden Lion
     Tarzan and the Ant Men
     Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle
     Tarzan and the Lost Empire
     Tarzan at the Earth's Core
     Tarzan the Invincible
     Tarzan Triumphant
     Tarzan and the City of Gold
     Tarzan and the Lion Man
     Tarzan and the Leopard Men
     Tarzan's Quest
     Tarzan and the Forbidden City
     Tarzan the Magnificent
     Tarzan and the "Foreign Legion"
     Tarzan and the Madman
     Tarzan and the Castaways
     The Eternal Lover (aka The Eternal Savage)

Tarzan Juveniles:

     The Tarzan Twins
     Tarzan and the Tarzan Twins with Jad-bal-ja the Golden
          Lion (aka Tarzan and Tarzan Twins)

Venus:

     Pirates of Venus
     Lost on Venus
     Carson of Venus
     Escape on Venue
     The Wizard of Venus
     Tales of Three Planets

Mars:

    A Princess of Mars
    The Gods of Mars
    The Warlord of Mars
    Thuvia, Maid of Mars
    The Chessman of Mars
    The Mastermind of Mars
    A Fighting Man of Mars
    Swords of Mars
    Synthetic Men of Mars
    John Carter of Mars
    Llana of Gathol

Earth's Core (Pellucidar Series):

    At the Earth's Core
    Pellucidar
    Tanar of Pellucidar
    Tarzan at the Earth's Core
    Back to the Stone Age
    Land of Terror
    Savage Pellucidar

"Time Forgot" (Caprona Series):

     The Land That Time Forgot
     The People That Time Forgot
     Out of Times Abyss

Miscellaneous:

     The War Chief
     Apache Devil (aka Red Hawk)
     The Mucker
     The Lost Continent (aka Beyond Thirty)
     The Girl From Hollywood
     The Cave Girl
     The Bandit of Hell's Bend
     The Eternal Lover (aka The Eternal Savage)
     The Moon Maid
     The Mad King
     The Outlaw of Torn
     The Monster Men
     Jungle Girl (aka The Land of the Hidden Men)
     The Oakdale Affair
     The Lad and the Lion
     The Moon Men
     The Deputy Sheriff of Comanche County
     The Girl From Farris's
     The Efficiency Expert
     I Am a Barbarian
     Beyond the Farthest Star
     The Rider

Also see:
     Lupoff, Richard:  Edgar Rice Burroughs:  Master of Adventure
     Porges, Irwin:  Edgar Rice Burroughs

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1986 09:50-EST
From: Joseph.Ginder@SPICE.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: C. J. Cherryh: Chanur's Venture begins a TRILOGY

Well, having heeded the warnings about the cliff-hanger ending of
"Chanur's Venture" I waited until the sequel to it, "The Kif Strike
Back" was published before beginning to read.  Alas, "The Kif Strike
Back" also ends in something of a cliff-hanger.  The story is to be
concluded in a forthcoming third book, "Chanur's Homecoming".  I am
anxiously awaiting the third in the series.  Thought I'd warn those
of you who would prefer to acquire all three books before beginning
the first.

C.J. Cherry includes some notes at the end of "The Kif Strike Back"
as to why she wrote in the trilogy form (including some speculation
as to why that form has become so often used) and about how the Hani
universe fits into her other works.  The first two books in the
Chanur trilogy are the beginning and middle of a story that is a
sequel to "The Pride of Chanur" (no news here, just a clarification
that in the authors mind the first Chanur book and the latest three
are two different stories, not one four-book story).  The Hani
universe and the Downbelow Station/Merchanter's Luck/Forty Thousand
in Gehenna universe are one!  (This is something I would have never
guessed (despite the similarities in technology and trading
economies).  Perhaps this is an afterthough?)  The Compact of the
Hani/Mahe/Kif etc. lies on the other side of Earth from the human
occupied space of the other series.  Humans (from the Earth-based
component of the three major human politcal groups described in
"Downbelow Station") are just making contact in a serious way in the
Chanur trilogy.  Tully is from this set of humans, it appears.  (By
the way, none of this gives away any important story details.)

Mini-review: I liked "Chanur's Venture" and "The Kif Strike Back"
quite a lot.  I wish "Chanur's Homecoming" were available now,
though -- I really want to see what happens!  These books, while not
destined for all-time classic, top-ten SF books ever written status,
are excellent.  If you like C.J. Cherry's other work (especially
"The Pride of Chanur") you'll like these two.  They continue the
rollicking space-opera style of "The Pride of Chanur" with the same
sort of character development that is typical of C.J. Cherryh's work
-- space opera with real people (oops, real hani, mahe, kif ...).
Quite exciting in spots, lots of intrigue, alien aliens (even though
they bear similarities to various non-intelligent Earth species
sometimes).  All in all: very gripping and a satisfying read.  To
put it in "pidgin" terms (pidgin is a simple language sometimes used
by the various aliens to communicate with each other): C.J. Cherry
get much sfik these books!

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Is PKD really dead?
Date: 10 Mar 86 22:18:17 GMT

>>....  Philip Dick is also wonderful, but he's not writing much
>>these days....
>How do you know?  Just because he's not getting much published
>doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.)  Maybe the
>mail service is not very efffective from where he is?
>                       Charlie Martin
>                       (...mcnc!duke!crm)

I could be wrong about this, but didn't Philip Dick die in 1982?
This is what it says in the front of one of his books I have (can't
remember which). If he was fooling, it was well detailed - it even
said that the book in question was published with the permission of
his estate. Anyone know?

R. Ramsay

------------------------------

From: warwick!sfsoc@caip.rutgers.edu (Science Fiction + Fantasy
From: Society)
Subject: Re: Is PKD really dead?
Date: 12 Mar 86 02:15:50 GMT

ramsay@kcl-cs.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes:
>>How do you know?  Just because he's not getting much published
>>doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.)  Maybe the
>>mail service is not very efffective from where he is?
>>                      Charlie Martin
>>                      (...mcnc!duke!crm)
>I could be wrong about this, but didn't Philip Dick die in 1982?
>This is what it says in the front of one of his books I have (can't
>remember which). If he was fooling, it was well detailed - it even
>said that the book in question was published with the permission of
>his estate. Anyone know?

  I think a slight lack of netiquette is what caused the
misunderstanding.  Charlie should have followed the article with a
nice little ':-)' or even ':-(' - new symbol for a sick joke anyone.
What do you think he means by "Maybe the mail symbol is not very
effective from where he is?"?

UWSF&FS
131 Arts Fed Pigeonholes
Uni. of Warwick
Coventry    CV 47 AL
UK

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** C. M. Kornbluth Books
Date: 12 Mar 86 03:25:04 GMT

With help from Evelyn C. Leeper:

KORNBLUTH, C. M.:  (pseud. Cyril Judd)

    The Best of C.M. Kornbluth
    Explorers
    Gunner Cade (with Judith Merril)
    The Marching Morons
    A Mile Beyond the Moon
    Not This August
    The Syndic
    Takeoff

see also: Pohl, Frederik

------------------------------

From: minster!angi@caip.rutgers.edu (angi)
Subject: Re: Anybody got any information on non-sf McCaffrey?
Date: 10 Mar 86 12:52:26 GMT

The books listed below are all the Anne McCaffrey novels/short
stories I know about. If anyone knows of any other ones, I'd love to
know.

Science fiction/fantasy:

Dragonflight
Dragonquest
The White Dragon
Dragonsong
Dragonsinger: Harper of Pern
Dragondrums
Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern
Get off the Unicorn
Dinosaur Planet
The Survivors (Dinosaur Planet II)
Restoree
Decision at Doona
The Ship Who Sang
To Ride Pegasus
The Crystal Singer

Non-sf:

The Mark of Merlin
Ring of Fear
The Kilternan Legacy
Stitch in Snow

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
Date: 11 Mar 86 17:36:18 GMT

Space Merchants tells the story of the Fowler Schocken Associates
advertising agency and the early attempts by the Consies to subvert
various things.  It goes into the start of the colonizing of Venus.
It also sets the stage by showing as an example how the agency can
command a joint session of congress and the President of the U.S.
cannot.  It also shows the early influence of corporations by
showing that the Representatives/Senators represent industries and
not the states or the population.

Merchant's War carries this theme into the distant future.  Venus is
now colonized and the triumphant ad agencies have basically taken
over everything.  They control totally Congress, the military, the
political parties, etc.  Fowler Schocken by this time is revered as
a god of the ad agencies and it carries on with the Consie vs ad
agency theme to a more or less logically conclusion.

This is written after I have just re-read SM and read MW.  I am sure
that I have missed some of the more subtle points, but essentially
MW is the logical sequel to SM, although the characters are
different, due to the difference in the time frame.

Bill

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** Frederik Pohl Booklist (Revised)
Date: 12 Mar 86 03:28:38 GMT

With the help of Evelyn C. Leeper:

POHL, FREDERIK:  (incomplete)

     The Abominable Earthman
     Age of the Pussyfoot
     Alternating Currents
     Assignment in Tomorrow
     The Best of Frederik Pohl
     Best Science Fiction for 1972 (editor)
     Beyond the Blue Event Horizon (Heechee series)
     Beyond the End of Time
     Bipohl:  Two Novels
          Drunkard's Walk
          Age of the Pussyfoot
     The Case Against Tomorrow
     The Cool War
     Day Million
     Demon in the Skull (revised version of Plague of Pythons)
     Digits and Dastards
     Drunkard's Walk
     Early Pohl
     Edge of the City
     Expert Dreamers (editor)
     Farthest Star
     Galaxy (editor)
     Galaxy I (editor)
     Galaxy II (editor)
     Galaxy Reader 7 (editor)
     Galaxy Reader 8 (editor)(aka Final Encounter)
     Galaxy Reader 9 (editor)
     Galaxy Reader 10 (editor)(aka Doorway into Space?)
     Gateway (Heechee series)
     The Gold at the Starbow's End
     Heechee Rendezvous (Heechee series)
     If Reader of Science Fiction (editor)
     If Reader of Science Fiction 2 (editor)
     In the Problem Pit
     JEM
     Jupiter
     Man Plus
     The Man Who Ate the World
     The Merchants' War (Space Merchant series)
     Midas World
     The Nebula Award Stories 14 (editor)
     Nightmare Age
     A Plague of Pythons
     Planet's Three
     Pohlstars
     Science Fiction Discoveries (editor)
     Science Fiction:  Great Years 1 (editor)
     Science Fiction:  Great Years 2 (editor)
     SF:  Studies in Film
     Shadow of Tomorrow
     Slave Ship
     Starbow
     Starburst
     Star of Stars (editor)
     Star Science Fiction No. 1
     Star Science Fiction No. 2
     Star Science Fiction No. 3
     Star Science Fiction No. 4
     Star Science Fiction No. 5
     Star Science Fiction No. 6
     Star Short Novels (editor)
     Syzygy
     Tomorrow Times Seven
     The Town Is Drowning
     Turn Left at Thursday
     The Way the Future Was
     The Years of the City

POHL, FREDERIK & C.M. KORNBLUTH:  (incompete)

     Before the Universe
     Critical Mass
     Gladiator-At-Law
     Presidential Year
     Search the Sky
     The Space Merchants (Space Merchant series)
     Wolfbane
     The Wonder Effect

POHL, FREDERIK & JACK WILLIAMSON:  (incomplete)

     Farthest Star (Farthest Star series)
     The Reefs of Space (Starchild series)
     Rogue Star (Starchild series)
     Starchild (Starchild series)
     Starchild Trilogy
          Reefs of Space
          Rogue Star
          Starchild
     Undersea City (Undersea series)
     Undersea Fleet (Undersea series)
     Undersea Quest (Undersea series)
     Wall Around a Star (Farthest Star series)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 86 14:36 EST
From: SPWGBG%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Comics

   Having noticed a reference to the Comics Buyer's Guide in a
recent SF-LOVERS issue, I'd like to ask the following question: How
many SF and fantasy fans are also comic book fans?  For my part,
while I do tremendously enjoy SF and fantasy, my first love must be
comics.
   In a related subject, DC (the second largest comic book company)
has recently started a series of comic book adaptations of science
fiction works.  These are in the "graphic novel" format, $5.95, on
slick paper and magazine sized.  Those that have appeared include
Robert Silverberg's _Nightwings_, Robert Bloch's _Hell on Earth_,
and others.  If the above information is redundant, I apologize;
I've received only the last three SF-LOVERS.

Greg Morrow
spwgbg%irishmvs.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

From: trwrba!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe)
Subject: Hitchhikers
Date: 11 Mar 86 01:45:31 GMT

>>I have the first two books (Hitchhikers and Restaurant) on
>>cassette.  I know that the records exists (that's where I got my
>>tapes), but they are hard to find.
>
>If you say you have the first 2 books on tape, then you (probably)
>dont have the original broadcasts.  I do not believe that they were
>separated then into three parts corresponding to the three books;
>in fact they are *quite* different after you get 1/2 into the
>tapes.

The episodes I have contain up to the part where Ford and Arthur pull
the scrabble letters out and come up with:
   What do you get if you multiply six by nine?

(The answer of course being 42)

I do not know what episode this is, but if anybody wants a copy of
the series up to this point I will be glad to copy it for them.
Also, if anyone has the subsequent episodes I would greatly
appreciate it if they would tell me where to find them.  I am not
even sure they exist!

Pete Olpe
UUCP Path: ...{decvax,ucbvax,hplabs}!trwrb!trwrba!pro

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 86 09:24:29 EST
From: cerebus%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Copy of file RALLY

Hello,
    I would like to make a couple of announcements, and they are
both Science Fiction Related, so please bear with me.

1) I am trying to set up an Albany to Boston Rally for next BOSKONE.
It will be held on the Massachusetts Turnpike, and the goal is to
drive abreast the entire way at 55 mph.

2) There is now a digest dedicated to live role playing games
(Killer, Assassin, KAOS, RECON, etc.).  If you like live role
playing games, you will want to be part of this digest.

    If you are interested in either of these activities, write to
me.  my address is: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

Thank you,
Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 86 1014-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:

            Books - Sexuality in SF and Fantasy (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Women in sf/fantasy #1
Date: 11 Mar 86 15:26:41 GMT

  I am re-posting these articles due to some e-mail which leads me
to believe that my original postings failed. Use the "n" key if
you've already read them.

  Well, it was a long time coming, but here is the summary of
responses to my posting on female sexuality in sf/fantasy. The
responses were not numerous (25), but were extremely interesting in
that a lot of them were from some of the most thoughtful net
posters. They also exhibited a wide geographical origin: United
Kingdom, Sweden, El Salvador, Australia, and of course, the United
States. As no one requested anonymity, I've included login names
with quotes. CAUTION, I found out you can't infer gender by login
handle. Several contributers revealed their sexual orientation, but
I feel it would be a violation of net ethics to do that in this
summary, so I've tried to keep that confidential. I've also limited
the quotes to the first three questions.  Questions 4-7 were sort of
ho-hum to the responders and by and large a matter of indifference.
So in the interest of brevity, I'll assume the same attitude. Also,
due to length, I'm going to post the responses in three seperate
postings.

   Thanks to all for some interesting correspondence.

   Enjoy. I did.

>Subject: Women in sf/fantasy
>   There has been a great deal of discussion/debate in this group
>and others about feminist Science Fiction writers, and strong
>female protaganists created by authors of either gender. As I find
>the whole subject of human sexuality fascinating, I have followed
>the discussion and read many of the authors mentioned such as Russ,
>Bradley, Lynn, etc.  I must say that I have enjoyed each of their
>works very much.  But it seems that a euphemism for "strong female
>protaganist" in their works, and in the various postings, is
>"Lesbian Protaganist" or "Bisexual Protaganist".
>   OK. That doesn't bother me because some of the most interesting
>and intelligent women I have known in my life have been lesbian, or
>bi.  I personally feel that a women's sexual preferences are part
>of her psyche, and immaterial (unless she's a sexual partner of
>mine) to our rapport.
>   However, I seem to be finding women in science fiction more and
>more (also in general fiction) who are bi/gay. And sometimes
>unexpectedly by non-feminist writers. This gives one pause, and I
>would like to pose some questions to the readers of this group(s).

>1. Is this perceived by the majority as the future of female
>   sexuality?
>2. Is this merely a reflection of todays "Bisexual Chic"?
>3. Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men
>   without being bi/gay?
>4. Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi?
>   Straight?
>5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi?
>   Straight?
>6. Would you prefer male heros to be gay? Bi? Straight?
>7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists
>   even when plainly detailed on the cover?
>
>  If this topic interests you, answer by e-mail and I will summarize
>to the group(s) in about three or four weeks.

**Is this [bisexuality] perceived as the future of female sexuality?**

decvax!frog!wjr
"Well, I wish I could see bisexuality as the general future,....
            ...That is, bisexuality is, to me, normal in a way that
heterosexuality/homosexuality isn't.  I don't care whether a person
is concave or convex, just whether SHe's good people.  I wish I
could believe that would someday become the norm, but I don't see it
happening this week...."

quint@caip(amqueue)
     "I do not know if one can even use the term `future of
sexuality'.  It seems an excessively artificial concept".....
..."I dont think one can talk about the future of sexuality except in
terms of the future of one individual's sexuality. It seems to me to
be the next part of society to need a `breakthrough' in ideas and
the freedom to talk about such things."

ellen@reed
  "....The vast majority of the world is still quite homophobic;
even if you are talking only about the US this is true.  I hope it
becomes a more accepted option, but at the moment I do not perceive
it to be an inevitable progression for all women, only for certain
individuals.

Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip
    "I don't think so.  I believe that women probably have an easier
time being bi- than men do, but most of the women I've known who
call themselves bi have a much stronger leaning towards being gay."

ccrdave@vega
"I don't like any bi/gay stuff.  I prefer logical, intelligent
characters of all races, colors, planets of origon, etc., but I just
don't like `that sick stuff.'  I think a woman can be intelligent
and straight. Just work at it.

chuck@purdue
"No.  I think lesbians (and gay men) are appearing more in
literature simply because they are becoming more visible in our
society.  Homosexuality is no longer something which simply isn't
mentioned in `polite society,' as it once was.  Changes such as this
in society are noticed by authors and become part of those authors'
works.  Personally, I do not expect society to accept lesbianism or
bisexuality as `THE' female sexuality (at least not in the
foreseeable future).  Whether the authors beleive that this is `the
future of female sexuality' or not I can't say."

davidl@teklds
"I doubt it.  I think it's just a quick way for an author to label a
female character as `not just an old-fashioned girl'".

kay@warwick
"Not necessarily.  However, I imagine (and hope) that it will become
increasingly easy for women (and men) to live happily with a
non-hetero sexuality."

flory@zaphod
"I, for one, think it is the future of *human* sexuality."

                         continued

Hank Buurman       Tektronix Inc.     ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb

------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Women in sf/fantasy #2
Date: 11 Mar 86 15:29:32 GMT



**Is this (female gay/bisexuality in sf/fantasy) merely a reflection
  of todays "Bisexual Chic"?**

barb@oliveb
"Yep.  (The pendulum swings to an extreme before its influence can
be felt in the middle.)"

Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip
"Not merely, though I think that may be a large part of the picture.
I will say that a lot of men seem to find bi-sexual activity on the
part of women rather stimulating - open any issue of Penthouse if
you doubt this."

davidl@teklds
"Perhaps.  Also, many men are turned on by lesbians, paradoxical as
that may seem.  Even Playboy (the most conservative of America's
skin-pix mags) has had somewhat explicit pictures of lesbian sex."

ellen@reed
"Good grief.  I certainly hope not.  It is unfortunate that many
lesbians now coming out are accused of succumbing to "bisexual
chic," but I think it is more a reflection of increased awareness of
bisexuality on the part of authors and audiences, not necessarily
increased popularity."

kay@warwick
"Possibly. I hear people say that they consider bisexuality to be
"trendy", to be a "soft option" (for gay people who don't want to
come out as gay), but I'm not sure how much those statements reflect
the existence of a real "bisexual chic", as opposed to those
people's apprehensions about bisexuality."

li@uw-vlsi
  "I think that, at this moment, people are just discovering that
side of sexuality and all the following developments that go with
them.  I think that it may be a trend, as in trendy, but I think
that it will slow up eventually; but at the moment authors are
exploring the possibilities."

**Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men
  without being bi/gay?**

quint@caip
  "I imagine it is possible. I don't usually notice the sexuality of
the protagonist unless I am looking for it... I dont worry about
those things.  Some authors seem to slap you in the face with it...
Elizabeth Lynn for example... her collection "The Woman Who Loved
The Moon" was the first book I ever really noticed that the
protagonist was bi/gay, and I remember wondering "why should it make
a difference?" The fact is, it doesn't if it isn't made obvious... I
never batted an eye when Lythande (from Thieves' World) wandered off
with a girl.
     I think part of the cause of this is that many of the obvious
role models for female protagonists in modern society have been
bi/gay...  especially in the literary fields. The 'strong' women
definitely have female lovers, whether or not that is their primary
orientation. (from what I have heard about men in the
publishing/literary fields, it is probably because they can't find
anyone decent.)"

kay@warwick
"In my opinion, certainly!  To me, the question (and I'm not getting
at you here) is about as meaningful as `Can a female protagonist be
... superior to men without having blue eyes?'"

ellen@reed
"It's difficult, I think.  However, it can be done; witness C.L.
Moore's Jirel of Joiry stories, Gilman's Herland novels, Anne
McCaffrey's Killashandra and Helva, and some of the Zelazny
heroines.  I think it's much harder to write heterosexual strong
women at this point in time, since so much of sexuality relates to a
conquest metaphor."

chk@purdue
"Yes.  However, I think that certain authors do not know this.  As a
side note, it may also be that editors/copyreaders/whoever think
that strong, straight women would not be accepted by the readers
(that's us, gang).  If so, this would put a lot of pressure on
writers to make their heroines bi/gay/androgynous."

Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip
 "I certainly hope so!!  Look at "Clan of the Cave Bear" and "Valley
of the Horses" for a wonderfully strong, straight female character.
There may be a few other problems with these books, but the main
female character is strongly drawn and quite straight."

davidl@teklds
"Of course (in my opinion).  Example: Mary Lou Retton manages to be
an athletic superstar and a symbol of down-home femininity.
However, the question is weighted.  The phrase "superior to men"
implies that ALL men are inferior to this protagonist.  A woman who
considers herself "superior to (all) men" would be very likely to
become bi/gay, or at least misanthropic."

flory@zaphod
"This is obviously a flawed generality but widely held
nevertheless."
                            Continued

Hank Buurman       Tektronix Inc.     ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb

------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Women in sf/fantasy #3
Date: 11 Mar 86 15:36:57 GMT

                    **General comments of interest.**

barb@oliveb
   "..I was irritated by Elizabeth Lynn's work, because I felt she
was beating me over the head with her gay is ok characters.
Personally, I DON'T CARE!  It was not integral to the plot -- let
the story tell itself, don't PROVE into the ground an aside point."

>7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists
>   even when plainly detailed on the cover?

davidl@teklds
"Yes.  Actually, I think the whole idea of labeling the type of sex
in the book can, if taken to extremes, lead to silly labels like
this:

                               WARNING

             Contains descriptions of sexual activities
          [] Heterosexual               [] Homosexual
          [] Interracial                [] Interspecies
          [] Oral                       [] Anal
          [] Bestiality                 [] Bondage
          [] Sadism                     [] Masochism
          [] Fetishism                  [] Voyeurism
          []                            []

          If you are offended by any of the acts indicated
            by checked boxes, do not purchase this book.    :-)

I'm sure that some people out there would even consider this label
offensive.  I think that there's someone bound to be offended by
ANYTHING you can put in a book, and it's not the publisher's
responsibility to explain exactly what's in each book.  That's what
reviewers are for.  There are even specialized reviewers in
publications directed to parents and conservative people, dedicated
to pointing out material these people might find offensive
(presumably so they can avoid it).

Not afraid to sign my name, but with tongue firmly implanted in
cheek: [ommitted]

ellen@reed
**Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi?
Straight?** "I prefer that the possibility of alternate sexuality
exist.  However, I do not need the heroine to *have* an active
sexual life in order to enjoy a book.  Since there are rather more
strong bi/gay heroines, I often end up reading about them.  That's
perfectly fine.  What I *really* hate is heroines like Heinlein's
who start out strong and end up clinging and screaming.  What a
waste of a good character."

jody@inuxd
        "The female protagonist, I would like is well educated but
not a brain, is straight but not victumized by men nor having casual
sex here and there.  She is motivated but has to work around the
system in some way-- creatively (sex is out too boring).  In a sense
a normal female.  Well normal may not be a good work--what is
normal??  But nothing special about her except her own personality,
that way when she does something in the story it really seems
wonderful.  I guess it is because I think gee maybe I could be like
that one day...or...  I will never be superwoman if for no other
reason then I am to small in stacher, and I can not believe in a
universe that would make unfeminine females."

[login name ommitted. -ed.]
>5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi?
>   Straight?

"This is tricky.  I'm a male bisexual author: as such, I'm exposed
to many facets of women's sexuality: I may sleep with straight/bi
women; I raise my consciousness with women of all preferences; and
so on.  However, I'm not a woman: this (I find) makes writing about
the intimate (not necessarily *sexually* intimate) experiences of
women difficult.  It's not very often, therefore, that I write about
them (though I'm doing so increasingly), and not because of any
separatist feeling."

li@fluke
"Interesting article.  As for most of the questions, I'll give the
simple answer "It depends on the character."  Just as I would
withhold judging a person if I were just given their sexual
preference.  There is a lot of fascination with the complexities
involved with sex of any kind, and the twist of bi- or homo-
sexuality is sometimes fun and filled with all the connotations of
the words.  But I really don't think that a woman has to be bi- or
lesbian just because she is stonger mentally or physically than a
lot of men."
                             and
        ...."I think that, at this moment, people are just
discovering that side of sexuality and all the following
developments that go with them.  I think that it may be a trend, as
in trendy, but I think that it will slow up eventually; but at the
moment authors are exploring the possibilities."

        My deepest thanks to:

                STella Calvert
                Anne Marie Quint
                Barb Jernigan
                Chuck Koelbel
                Mary Couse
                David D. Levine
                Ellen Eades
                Liralen Li
                Charlie Sorsby
                Trevor K. Flory

And other contributers whom I was unable to identify.

Shalom
Hank Buurman




  Hank Buurman       Tektronix Inc.     ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb
  *===============================================================*
  *"In each of us that flaming column, carrying away the lives of *
  * seven valiant persons, left a deep pain in the soul." -Pravda *
  *===============================================================*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 86 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Keeping Books,
                       Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
                       Miscellaneous - Worldcon '86 & 
                               Harper's Article on SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Keeping books
Date: 10 Mar 86 20:36:24 GMT

duane@anasazi.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes:

>I give this book 3.0 stars (very good). I don't hesitate to
>recommend it to others to read, but it's not a book I'd keep
>permanently.

Interesting.  I keep permanently any book that I can read without
getting sick.  This means that there are books I consider very bad,
that I don't hesitate to point out to others as something to be
avoided, but that I nevertheless keep a copy of.

Frank Adams
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: DOCTOR WHO:  PERI REPLACED!!
Date: 12 Mar 86 20:24:00 GMT

> Since the last season of Doctor Who was accused by certain
> factions of being too violent and sexually exploitive...

Well, I don't know.  Personally, the chemistry between Sarah Jane
Smith and The Doctor always convinced me that there was something
else going on inside the TARDIS :-)

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Dr Who and Peri
Date: 12 Mar 86 20:21:00 GMT

> I just saw my first episode with Peri (this weekend).  It had
> Colin Baker as the Dr, and took place on Varos (previously a
> prison planet?  complete with televised punishments and
> executions!).  I don't know if it was a lack of chemistry, poor
> script, or what; but, I was negatively impressed with "Peri".  I
> am willing, however, to wait and watch more episodes to see how
> (if?) her character develops into something other than a nagging,
> simpering bowl of jello.

I don't blame you for being so negatively impressed.  The fact is,
no, her character is never anything but a bowl of jello (I'm glad
she's being written out).

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

From: eneevax!phaedrus@caip.rutgers.edu (Praveen Kumar)
Subject: Re: Worldcon '86
Date: 13 Mar 86 14:55:02 GMT

The address for the worldcon is:

CONFEDERATION
Att: <whatever dept. (e.g. memberships)>
Suite 1986, 3277 Roswell Road
Atlanta, GA 30305

praveen
phaedrus@eneevax.umd.edu
 or {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!eneevax!phaedrus

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Mar 86 09:07:05-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Harper's Article on SF

Folks,

Someone previously mentioned this article.  I've included below some
excerpts, but encourage you all to read the entire article.  It
seems to provide a good example of the "lit crit" view of SF.
Hopefully these excerpts will stimulate some good discussion here on
SF-LOVERS.  (Please note that I DO NOT SHARE THIS AUTHOR'S VIEWS, so
don't direct your flames at me.  Thanks.)

Steve Dennett

             [ Excerpts from "Harpers" magazine October 1985 ]

                       The Temple of Boredom
                     Science fiction, no future
                            by Luc Sante

Science fiction has been invading daily life for a number of years,
but recently it has become pandemic. That is because it is
increasingly hard to distinguish between real and imaginary
technology.
...Technology has long been science fiction's conceit; now it is a
conceit in real life as well.

...Science fiction held out to imaginative writers the lure of
complete license in the pursuit of subject matter. No longer would
fiction be restricted to a set of variations upon existing themes;
it would be released from drudgery and repetition, from the hearth
and the battlefield, from the abject deeds of mere humans. fiction
henceforth would be allowed to fly unimpeded into infinite realms,
far from the miseries of daily life.

It is hard, a century or so later, to recall science fiction's
original promise. . .  Rather than inspiring liberty, science
fiction has merely generated a new set of conventions. instead of
drawing any body onward, these conventions have led inward, to
minutely embroidered variations on earlier works; sideways, to
procrastination and sloth (as when science fiction disposes of social
issues by resolving them in impossible conditions); and backward, to
nostalgia and escapism (as when it pretends that the present never
occurred).

Conventions, of course, are attributes of all literary genres, and
it seems pointless to fault a genre merely for being a genre. What
makes science fiction different from other genres is the hubris of
its intention, which is nothing less than to depict the future, and
the impossible.  That it usually delivers pedestrian silliness is
therefore thrown into much greater relief. Like modern technology,
science fiction relies on mystification to disguise the fact that it
is continually retailing the same product.

                                 ( . . . )

Science fiction has become a dead zone useful for dumping space
travel, extraterrestrials, weird inventions, time warps,
extrasensory perception, biological mutations, the morals of
intelligent machines, and anything else that would be of genuine
scientific interest were it not fictional.  This material is handled
with techniques derived from allegory and satire, taking off
principally from the "what if" angle, which has become the
cornerstone of the genre.  The distinction is that allegory and
satire are usually designed to provoke action, whereas science
fiction is intended to encourage speculation for its own sake. The
categories are frequently confused, as when historians of science
fiction attempt to enlist Plato's Republic or More's Utopia as
forerunners. Not every deviation from realism qualifies as science
fiction: myths, fairy tales, visionary tracts, and surrealist
narratives are not science fiction.  fantasy, although it shares
authors, publishers, and readers with science fiction, is a species
of medieval or paleolithic western. It is not science fiction.
Kafka's "The Trial" is not science fiction, and neither is Orwell's
1984, although this last claim is subject to dispute.

Nor does science fiction exclude humor, but a major component of
humor is irrationality, a quality feared by science fiction. Within
the terms of the genre, everything must adhere to a rigorous schema.
Science fiction cannot bear to leave its conundrums elegantly
unresolved. Its task is to literalize, add mass, and seek a
convincing solution, no matter how extravagant or dull. Science
fictioneers are addicted to a form of closure, by which internal
consistency is achieved at the cost of absurdity. If humans shuttle
back and forth through time like commuters on the subway, the
mechanism of their travel must be accounted for in a consistent and
"plausible" way. If aliens are shaped like hour glasses and exhale
chlorine, their physiology must be explained in terrestrial terms.
Science is not usually considered a deterrent to the spirit of
invention, so the fact that it can be invoked to deadening effect in
a purely literary matter is a bit surprising. But science fiction's
fear of instinct and desire for respectability mark its origins in
the nineteenth-century bourgeoisie, a milieu famous for using
science as a bludgeon.

                             ( . . . )

If Science fiction today can be said to show a trend, it is a
retrograde trend, serving up planets ever more distant and futures
increasingly remote. The fear of nuclear holocaust has become so
pervasive that it seems best simply to allude to the destruction of
the planet, long ago, while tracing the destinies of escapees in
their new galactic neighborhoods. The few novels that treat atomic
disaster as a more recent experience tend to push a dubious
survivalist line, which stops just short of wishing for a holocaust
that will force us back to the frontier, where men were men.
Russell Hoban's Riddley Walker is a significant exception.  Set in a
distant time when humanity is just regaining technology, history,
and self-consciousness long after nuclear devastation, it is written
in a pidgin English that creates a remarkable dramatic irony . . .

Hoban convincingly portrays a new Dark Ages with a cryptic mythology
drawn from the present. His implication of cyclical recurrence is
thoroughly chilling. More representative is Charles Whitmore's
"Winter's Daughter", which, while commendably avoiding the racist,
sexist, and brutalizing qualities of other survivalist works,
settles for an Arcadian nostalgia that is hardly less dangerous.

That the prospect of wholesale slaughter should occasion a yearning
for the primitive should not surprise us. In troubled times, what
could be more soothing than a feudal reverie in which the reader
joins the warrior caste fantasy, with its reliance on magic as an
escape from probability, sounds like the opposite of science
fiction, but literary miscegenation abounds.  Witness, for example,
the success of Anne McCaffrey and her dragon series, of which
Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern is the most recent installment.
McCaffrey's fantasy land is simultaneously traditional (capes,
swords, a lingo that resembles Cornish) and set on another planet.
Life is simple, men are hairy-chested, women likewise, the physical
world is malleable, and imaginary solutions can be magical,
scientific, literary, or all of the above. Here is the ultimate
escapism: the problems of one genre are solved by importing
labor-saving devices from another.

In this way, science fiction's original promise is fulfilled most
literally and most ludicrously.  The prophets of science fiction
hoped to avoid traditional literary constraints and scullery service
to the real world, but much of today's science fiction does little
more than erect a structure of pure cotton candy where nothing is
constant but the need for wish-fulfillment. The low pay meted out to
science fiction writers in the past may have been responsible for
some of the genre's woolier examples of logorrhea and vacuity, but
today, in a booming market, there is no such excuse. The only
explanations are haste and a contempt for the audience.

John Varley's Demon, for example, displays all the hallmarks of
word-processor style: short paragraphs, a rambling breeziness, a
tendency to repeat background information, a general confusion about
what occurred in earlier chapters. The plot is an indescribable
mess, hopping genres at the author's whim: a group of Canadians and
their centaur like allies battle zombies who enact scenes from
Hollywood movies at the command of a goddess who is both an entire
planet and a giant facsimile of Marilyn Monroe . . .

The net result is much like that of pouring all one's paints into a
single container: a uniform shit-brown.

But the old values are not entirely dead, as is evidenced by the
Hogan book, "Code of the Lifemaker", mentioned earlier. Hogan, Who
has been publishing for less than a decade, writes like a relic
dredged up from a 1953 issue of Amazing Stories. This book spares
nothing to achieve consistency: the pious robots have robot pets,
drink crankcase oil, and dwell in houses made of vegetable matter.
The gravity of their belief system is thrust on the reader via the
nicknames the visiting humans assign to individual robots: Galileo,
Leonardo, Moses. All this is assembled to make a firm non-point
about religion and science and their need to coexist.  Consistency,
thoroughness, a sense of purpose, a moral conclusion, and a
strong-jawed seriousness that persists right through all occasions
for humor-these are among the qualities of classic science fiction
Hogan exemplifies . . .

All of this leaves the reader with a slightly compromised
aftertaste, as if the hours spent with the book had been hours spent
humoring a lunatic.

Better, perhaps, that the author dispense with earthly correlatives
entirely and drown the reader in an extragalactic miasma, as Samuel
R.  Delany does in "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand". Delany,
who began publishing in the 1960s, is the only major black writer of
science fiction.  His books are dense and thoughtful, if perhaps a
shade overwritten, as his titles might suggest "Driftglass", "Time
Considered as a Helix of Semiprecious Stones"). . .

Delany has a flair for the alien, and is quite adept at convincingly
rendering the whole of distant societies. But he is sometimes hard
on the reader, who must spend hours deliberating over the probable
sexes of characters in a society where everyone is referred to as
"she," regardless of gender, unless he/she becomes a sexual object,
and thus becomes"he."  After a few hundred pages, however, the
insistence has a hypnotic effect, and the conceits take on flesh.
Then, near the end, the book reveals itself as a doomed-love tale
with a very long set up. The set-up is so skillful and the
denouement so pat that the book seems abruptly to fall off a cliff.
It is as though the book had ended with "and then I woke up." The
love story is a homosexual one, which ought to be either incidental
or boldly announced; but instead the doom, the pat ending, and even
the lengthy mise-en-scene seem like camouflage slathered on out of
embarrassment. This is an example of science fiction's accustomed
approach to a subject of burning concern--to the author or to
society at large: put it aboard a rocket ship and transport it eons
away where it can be detonated safely.

Stanislaw Lem's His Master's Voice (1968) sets itself a task and
does not shirk it. On the other hand, it qualifies as a science
fiction novel only if the term is taken literally. This tale of
conflict among scientists occupied in deciphering what may or may
not be a message from an extraterrestrial civilization is
speculative in the most narrow sense. It takes common science
fiction concerns (e.g., moral imperatives in the face of a possibly
dangerous scientific breakthrough) and flattens them into realism.
The hook (whether the"message" is genuine or not) is left
unresolved. The contempt for the genre that Lem demonstrates in his
essays (collected in "Microworlds", 1985) is here balanced by what
he presumably considers a superior approach. But "His Master's
Voice" is dull, relentlessly earth bound, and fanatically
methodical. In short, it is an essay about science leavened with
academic realism.

The more recent books considered above span a wide range of
ambition, literary merit, and moral responsibility, but they are all
instantly forgettable. While it may be argued that a number of them
were probably designed that way--as disposable printed fodder--it is
unlikely that any of their authors would so readily spurn the chance
to produce a title that might continue selling for a few decades.
Science fiction, by relying on a tradition of mediocrity, has
effectively sealed itself off from literature, and, incidentally,
from real concerns. From within, science fiction exudes the humid
vapor of male prepubescence. The cult like ferocity of science
fiction fandom serves only to cultivate what is most sickly and
stunted about the genre.

Meanwhile, in the outside world, science fiction finds work as a
commercial fetish, substituting for religion. Consumers are shown a
field of stars blazoned with the device "Beyond!"  When associated
with breakfast cereal or pickup trucks, the image of the cosmos
suggests masculine adventure while promising oblivion. Anything can
and does get sold this way.  Nevertheless, the double seduction of
bravado and of the void can most effectively be used to sell the
prospect of annihilation. Perhaps it is not so much that science
fiction has compromised itself as that time has caught up with it.
Its once vast terrain has been thoroughly plundered; what is left is
detritus, exploitable but degraded. Science and fiction can both be
found elsewhere; the future, though, must still be invented.


Harpers, October 1985

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 86 0832-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Mar 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Book Request,
                       Films - Videodrome & Brazil,
                       Magazines - Summary of Reviews,
                       Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (2 msgs),
                       Television - Blake's 7 & Amazing Stories &
                               Dr. Who,
                       Miscellaneous - Hugo Nomination & 
                               Worldcon '86

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: orstcs!jamesp@caip.rutgers.edu (jamesp)
Subject: Merchant book wanted
Date: 11 Mar 86 04:59:00 GMT

Can anybody suggest a novel or collection about life as a
Interstellar Merchant?  I am a Traveller enthusiast and want to find
ideas for a gaming session.  Thanks in advance!

James Perkins
tektronix!orstcs!jamesp

------------------------------

From: csvsj@ucbopal.BERKELEY.EDU (Steve Jacobson)
Subject: Re: BRAZIL (really Videodrome and Smile)
Date: 13 Mar 86 05:19:00 GMT

Brazil is truly a great film; when positive reviews refer to Smile
(M. Leeper) and Videodrome (sorry.. I forget who), I say YES.

I wanna see some Videodrome discussion. I hope Kronenberg abandons
the direction he took on DeadZone and returns to his earlier
intensity.

Videodrome was helluv more Philip Dick-like than Bladerunner!

...ucbvax!opal!csvsj

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1986 06:44-PST
Subject: Re: Brazil
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

   I saw the movie Brazil and as I work for the government, I found
myself laughing at some of the scenes.  It is not a movie that will
appeal to the masses.
   It would probably take seeing it several times to pick up on all
the nuances.  Here are some words that chased through my mind after
seeing it.  Satire, Walter Mitty, fantasy.  Let's hear from anyone
else who saw it.  I did not pick up on the symbolism of the name
Brazil.  Who did?

Faye (Wilbur@Office-2)

------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: SF Magazine summary
Date: 11 Mar 86 15:08:01 GMT

Enclosed is a lightly edited and very belated summary of the
responses I received to my request for information on SF magazines.
Thanks to all who replied.

Guy M. Smith

I have been subscribing to STARLOG since its beginning.  They are
very current-media oriented.  They feature articles and news from SF
and all its sub-genres from fantasy to spy movies.

Jim Deacon

I have been getting Analog and Fantasy and Science Fiction for
nearly 20 years.  F&SF is much more literate, as a rule, and more
stylistically experimental, while Analog is hard science almost all
the way.  I find that a really good Analog story (one every several
issues) hits closer to home for me than almost all F&SF stories,
while the average F&SF story is more readable.  Analog's politics
tend to be more conservative, but the science in the stories seldom
grates against reality.  F&SF includes Isaac Asimov's science column
every month, while Analog has a "science fact" article about
something frontier, be it astronomy, physics, psi, or anything.
F&SF used to have good cartoons by Gahan Wilson, but he left, and
they have usually unfunny cartoons now.  Analog has thoughtful
editorials, but the authors are sort of anonymous (except for the
one which is featured in that month's "Biolog"), while F&SF usually
has a 2-sentence blurb at the beginning of each story with a piece
of information.  On the whole, I find that when I need to relax, I
can always settle down with one of these magazines (though F&SF
tends to get read faster than Analog), even when I don't feel like
getting into an SF novel.

There is seldom any reference to the current magazines in sf-lovers;
maybe a review of each issue with capsule subject (NOT plot)
descriptions could be posted.

Doug Mink

I used to read Fantasy & Science Fiction but over the last couple of
years the magazine has gone to too many "ghost" stories for my taste.
I switched over to Analog and love it!

David Purks

I currently subscribe to both Analog and Isaac Asimov's Science
Fiction Magazine.  Analog runs science fact articles and tends
toward hard SF.  I have a feeling that they are sometimes a little
desperate for material, as in order to remain completely in the
realm of hard SF, they have to take some pretty bad stories.  When
they run a good one, though, it's a doozy.  On the whole, their
record has been pretty good, with only four or five of what I would
consider absolute clinkers over the four years or so in which I've
subscribed.  Asimov's publishes hard, medium, and soft SF, and
sometimes verges on fantasy and mainstream.  Their interest is in
the quality story, and the editor does not limit the stories to one
particular sub-genre of SF.  As a result, the stories are of overall
better quality than those in Analog.  I have also subscribed to
Asimov's for about four years, and have enjoyed it tremendously.

If you only have funds in the budget for one of these, I'd recommend
Asimov's for its overall higher story quality, as long as you're not
limited to one "flavor" of SF.

Mary Shurtleff
....decvax!ittatc!bunker!bunkerb!mary

Okay, I'll bite.  I read two SF magazines - Asimov's and Analog.  I
can demonstrate which I prefer easily; Asimov's is read within three
days of its receipt, but I'm usually a month or two behind on
Analogs.

Asimov's contains a much broader range of stories.  Please note, by
the way, that Asimov's has just switched editors from Shawna
McCarthy (sp?)  to Gardner Dozois, and I've only seen one Dozois
issue.  Analog tends a lot more toward `hard' high tech sf.  Fantasy
stories show up in Asimov's, but rarely in Analog.

I enjoy them both, but if I was going to read only one, it would
definitely be Asimov's.

Karl M. Owen

My husband has a preference for *Analog* -- the stories are more
into 'hard Science Fiction', and he feels the quality is generally
better than *Asimov's* and *Fantasy and Science Fiction*.

Barb

        I read _Analog_ and _Isaac_Asimov's_Science_Fiction_
Magazine.  _Analog_'s personality has remained very stable over the
years.  The magazine's contents are generally "hard science fiction,"
with not much literary or artistic ambition beyond that of telling a
story briskly and clearly.  IASFM's stories are sometimes "fantasy,"
are more likely than _Analog_ to have female protagonists, and are
more likely than _Analog_ to end tragically.
        IASFM's quality is more variable; sometimes great, sometimes
a bummer.  _Analog_ is relatively predictable, and if you have liked
it before you will probably like it now.  If not, not.

Christopher J. Henrich

------------------------------

From: ur-tut!aptr@caip.rutgers.edu (The Wumpus)
Subject: Re: Re.: Wanted: Hitchhiker's Guide Recordings
Date: 14 Mar 86 03:59:51 GMT

When talking about the radio version of HHGtG it is important to
consider which radio version, the original ones broadcast, or the
ones broadcasts on BBC for the world (including the USA version).
The scripts for the show, which are available in paper back,
describe the different versions of the show, and also show in the
text what was not released.  The book also includes interesting
anecdotes about the series.  (ie. If you thought yourself extremely
clever for discovering that 6*9 = 42 in base 13 and decided that
there was some great significance to that number, well, in a couple
of words, your wrong.  6 and 9 are just two random numbers picked to
not come out to 42 in base ten, at least that is what the book
says.)

The Wumpus

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Hitchhiker's nitpicking
Date: 14 Mar 86 20:58:02 GMT

For those who don't like nit-picking and a little humor, skip this.
Let us examine the question found by the caveman back on old Earth:

"What do you get if you multiply six by nine"

A while ago, I noticed that you can't get this from a normal set of
scrabble tiles, as you don't have four y's.  Did Douglass Adams ever
attempt to explain this?  I never found a reason.  Send me your
facts, and I will summarize later.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7 info
Date: 12 Mar 86 22:22:43 GMT

To answer the Blake's 7 questions from "ix312@sdcc6.UUCP" (could you
tell us your real name, ix312, or were these postings directly from
a machine?):

Terry Nation, creator of the Daleks on Doctor Who, created Blake's 7
for the BBC.  It ran for 4 13 episode seasons (1978-1981) before
ending with a bang (so to speak).  Complete information and episode
guide are available in a book called The Blake's 7 Programme Guide,
by Tony Attwood.  Terry Nation wrote all of the first 13 episodes
and several others after that, a large portion of the others were
written by Chris Boucher.  Well known SF author Tanith Lee wrote two
episodes.  Terry Nation specifically copied some things from Star
Trek, one of his favorite shows - look in particular at the logo in
the opening credits.

> Anyway, what I like to know is if anyone out there knows the show
> and can give me some information on it, such as who are these
> people?

The original 7 are, in the view of the Terran Federation, the most
dangerous escaped criminals and terrorists running loose in the
galaxy:
   Roj Blake - convicted child molestor
   Kerr Avon - convicted embezzler
   Vila Restal - convicted thief
   Jenna Stannis - convicted smuggler
   Oleg Gan - convicted murderer
   Cally - alien spy
   Zen - central computer of the Liberator
Actually, the Federation is an extremely corrupt government,
controlling planetary populations with drugs and police-state
tactics.  Blake was a leader of those rebeling against this
government, the charges against him were trumped up in order to
discredit him and sentence him to exile on the prison planet Cygnus
Alpha.

> how did they get together? and why?

Blake meets Avon, Vila, Jenna and Gan on route to Cygnus Alpha.  The
Liberator is an alien ship found abandoned.  When guards from the
prison transport are killed trying to board it, expendable prisoners
are sent instead - Blake, Avon and Jenna.  The ship accepts them as
its new crew and they escape, following the prison ship to Cygnus
Alpha to rescue Vila and Gan.  They meet Cally during their first
attack on a Federation installation.  She was the only survivor of a
previous sabotage attempt.

> Just what is the basic plot line and any background on the
> characters.  (I was able to figure out that Blake and his crew are
> the good guys.)

Blake and his crew are freedom fighters, aka terrorists.  They are
only "the good guys" because the federation is so bad.  Avon and
Vila, at least, were rightly convicted criminals.

> Also, Blake and his crew only total to six, who is number 7?

Zen, the Liberator's sentient computer, is the seventh.  But don't
let the number bother you, the show is Avon's 5 by the time it's
over.  This is British TV, they are allowed to kill main characters
(though this show carries it to somewhat of an extreme :-)).

And just think who confused you would be if you had happened on a
3rd or 4th series episode first - Blake isn't even in those.

Mary Anne Espenshade
...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: AMAZING STORIES
Date: 13 Mar 86 14:17:30 GMT

> From: drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway)
> My wife and I stopped watching Amazing Stories after the nth story
> about misunderstood kids in various forms and flavours. We prefer
> more adult flavours in our anthologies, like Twilight Zone....
>
> A case in point: Both series did "Three Wishes" sketches. In the
> Amazing Stories version, three kids catch a leprechaun who grants
> them three wishes, one each. They wish for the ability to see
> through girl's clothing, the ability to control their parents, and
> a "state-of-the-art" car. Very pedestrian, very predictable.

I hate to tell you this, but the Leprechaun episode described above
was on TWLIGHT ZONE, not AMAZING STORIES. I'm positive about this,
because I stopped watching AS after about the first half-dozen
shows, but have seen most of the TZ's, and this episode was on last
month sometime.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@caip.rutgers.edu (Adric of Alzarius)
Subject: Re: Companions of Dr. Who written out.
Date: 13 Mar 86 20:26:20 GMT

> From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
> Most faithful of Dr. Who's companions, K9, was also written out of
> the show, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth by true Dr. Who
> fans everywhere

Because K9 had such a large following, the BBC started a Dr.Who
spin-off which starred K9 and Elisabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane Smith
called "K9 and Company."  This show didn't have quite the following
that the BBC hoped it would.  This show only lasted one season in
England.  I've seen one episode of it and it didn't seem to have the
"pizazz" (sp) that Dr.Who had.  K9 and Sarah Jane didn't seem to mix
too well.  That's my opinion.  I would like to hear others.

Joseph P. Ogulin
UUCP:   {seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!whuxcc, allegra!hopkins}
        !jhunix!ins_ajpo
ARPA:   ins_ajpo%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.WISC.EDU
BITNET: INS_AJPO@JHUVMS
        P99I1798@JHUVM
CSNET:  ins_ajpo@jhunix.CSNET

------------------------------

From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
Date: Monday, 17 Mar 1986 21:46-EST
Subject: Hugo?

As those of you who were at Boskone may have heard, there is some 
interest in getting SF-LOVERS on the Hugo ballot this year. Because of
the rules, SFL is not eligible as a fanzine, nor is Saul eligible as
fanzine editor. Therefore, can I suggest:

Saul Jaffe for Best Professional Editor

Since the average nominating number for pro-editor is about 60-70 
ballots, if even a small number of SF-LOVERS readers nominate, we can
get Saul on the ballot. This is not only a good hack but a nice way to
recognize Saul, who puts in a lot of his own time for no tangible
returns.

To nominate, you must be a member of the 1986 Worldcon. If you're not,
it's really too late to do much. If you are, and you have yet to send
in your nominations sheet, think strongly about placing Saul's name on
your list. Remember, the deadline is coming up soon.

[Moderator's Note: I have been considering this since we discussed it
at Boskone.  I feel that while the atmosphere regarding SF-LOVERS has
changed to the point where we can discuss it more openly than in the
past, it has not changed sufficiently for world knowledge.  Remember,
the Hugos are covered by the press and given a lot more publicity than
a discussion group at Boskone.  Getting involved with the Hugo's may
be a politically bad move and can endanger the existence of SF-LOVERS.
Also, several people (like myself) could come under federal
investigation.
        I certainly can't stop you from making the nomination and I am
also not totally for or against the idea.  If it happens, it happens.
But, I certainly think you should consider carefully the possible
ramifications before you send in your nomination ballot.

Saul]

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh)
Subject: Re: Worldcon '86
Date: 13 Mar 86 22:44:58 GMT

     Has *ANYBODY* heard *ANYTHING* from WorldCon (ConFederation)
besides those always-late Progress Reports? I have been having MUCH
difficulty trying to get an advance masquerade registration form,
and the maximum is 100 people -- due to their imcompetence, I may
get closed out, and I wrote in *November*, for crying out loud!
(YES, I wrote again, and YES they got an SASE each time -- waste of
stamps...)
     If anyone has an advance registration form, or knows what info
they want sent instead, please contact me via e-mail. I have the Con
address, and the masquerade people's address, but it isn't doing me
much good since they DON'T ANSWER ME. Thanks in advance for any/all
help,

Sue Shambaugh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 86 0908-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Mar 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:

           Books - Card & Farmer & Herbert & O'Donnell &
                   Sheckley & Wolfe & Survey & 
                   Book Request Answered &
                   Story Request & Bad Books,
           Films - The Terrible Clock Man,
           Magazines - Locus Subscription Info,
           Television - Blake's 7 & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Wolfe the best?
Date: 12 Mar 86 21:10:00 GMT

>  (responding to article on Gene Wolfe)
>  I would recommend anything by Orson Scott Card.  He has mainly
>  been published in short story form but has a few very good novels
>  out.  Look for:
>
>        Enders Game
>        Planet of Solitude  (I think)
>        Back Issues of OMNI mag
>           (Includes the Classic _Unaccompanied_Sonata_)
>
>   He is very close to being on Wolfe's level and may very well
>   surpass him over time, considering how short a time he has been
>   writing (5 years?).

A vehement demur here.  Comparing Card to Wolfe is like comparing
Tim Zahn to Robert Heinlein, Tim Powers to Ursula LeGuin, SKZB to
vintage Zelazny, etc.  They're passable, good even.  Show promise of
putting it all together, whether on a revolutionary basis (Zahn) or
evolutionary (Powers & SKZB).  But as far as being anywhere near
close right now, I think not.  ENDER'S GAME was a better than
average book and probably will wind up on this year's Hugo ballot
and may win the Nebula.  But it is not a heads-above-the-field work
that the Wolfe was, or that Brin's was.  It is good, fast-paced
space opera augmented with much-better-than-usual psychological
insights, but basically, that's it.

Jim Brunet
hplabs/hao/ico/ism780
ihnp4/ima/ism780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** Philip Jose Farmer Books (Revised)
Date: 12 Mar 86 03:31:54 GMT

Corrections per Laurence Roberts, Bill Hsu, Randy Neff and myself.

FARMER, PHILIP JOSE

World of Tiers Series:

     The Maker of Universes
     The Gates of Creation
     A Private Cosmos
     Behind the Walls of Terra
     The Lavalite World

Riverworld Series:

     To Your Scattered Bodies Go
     The Fabulous Riverboat
     The Dark Design
     The Magic Labyrinth
     Riverworld and Other Stories
     Gods of Riverworld
     River of Eternity
     Tarzan Alive (??)

Other Novels:

     The Adventure of the Peerless Peer
     The Alley God
     A Barnstormer in Oz
     Blown
     The Book of Philip Jose Farmer
     The Cache
     Cache From Outer Space and the Celestial Blueprint
     The Classic Philip Jose Farmer
     Dare
     Dark is the Sun
     Dayworld
     Doc Savage:  His Apocalyptic Life
     Down in the Black Gang
     Father to the Stars
     A Feast Unknown
     Flesh
     Flight to Opar
     Gate of Time
     The Grand Adventure
     Greatheart Silver
     The Green Odyssey
     Hadon of Ancient Opar
     Image of the Beast
     Inside-Outside
     Ironcastle
     Jesus on Mars
     The Lord of the Trees and The Mad Goblin
     Lord Tyger
     The Lovers
     Mother Was a Lovely Beast
     Night of Light
     The Other Log of Phileas Fogg:  The Cosmic Truth Behind
          Jules Verne's Fiction
     The Purple Book
     River of Eternity
     Stations of the Nightmare
     The Stone God Awakens
     Strange Relations
     Tarzan Alive (Riverworld series??)
     Time's Last Gift
     Timestop
     Tongues of the Moon
     Traitor to the Living
     Two Hawks From Earth
     The Unreasoning Mask
     Venus on the Half-Shell (written as "Kilgore Trout")
     The Wind Whales of Ishmael
     A Woman A Day (aka Day of the Timestop; Timestop)

------------------------------

From: ecrcvax!snoopy@caip.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz)
Subject: Frank Herberts "Heretics of Dune"
Date: 12 Mar 86 12:53:59 GMT

An aside: Frank Herbert is dead. He died almost 4 weeks ago I think
of a heart failure at the age of 65, I think. This is a reply to the
person (my memory has checksum errs) who had the "Tell me it isn't
so !" subject line.

I have just seen Frank Herberts "Heretics of Dune" at Ye Olde Local
Booke Shoppe. This must be the fifth volume of the Dune Trilogy.

Has anyone read it and is willing to post a review, either to me or
this group ? Is the book worth reading ? Or should I forget it ?

Its quite fat and thus it looks like it will have a major impact on
my social life. Is it worth the effort ?

Thanks,
Seb
...\!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: CAVERNS by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. (mild spoiler)
Date: 13 Mar 86 15:20:53 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "April 1, 2083. A gastropod sent to Earth by the Far Being
  Retzglaran swallows McGill Feighan, age 4 days, and studies him
  for 71.4 hours.

  At age 5, Feighan becomes a Flinger--able to travel the universe
  in a flicker and a flash--and one of the most endangered
  individuals in the Galaxy.

  And in the year 2100, McGill Feighan begins an unguided quest for
  the Far Being, source of his powers and his persecution. It is a
  journey that promises to send him to the far reaches of both
  experience and space..."

The full title of the books is "The Journeys of McGill Feighan. Book
I: Caverns".

The jacket description is accurate but incomplete. One of the
complications in McGill's life is that The Organization, a
galaxy-wide crime syndicate, is curious as to why the Far Being took
an interest in McGill, and it's almost a full-time job for McGill to
remain at liberty.

The book's very enjoyable. The characters are nicely portrayed, and
the universe McGill finds himself in seems reasonable. The job of
"Flinger" is quite interesting, and the author goes to some length
to show how a person with a talent for teleportation must be
extensively trained before the talent is particularly useful.

I give the book 3.0 stars (very good) and look forward to others in
the series.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** Robert Sheckley Books (Revised)
Date: 12 Mar 86 16:59:27 GMT

Latest correction by Lee Cochenour, David Eppstein and many others.

SHECKLEY, ROBERT

Mysteries:

     Calibre .50
     Dead Run
     The Game of X (spy spoof)
     Live Gold
     (Special Agent X)(?)
     Time Limit
     White Death
     White Heat

Science Fiction:

     After the Fall
     The Alchemical Marriage of Alistair Crompton
     Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?
     Citizen in Space
     Crompton Divided
     Dimension of Miracles
     Dramocles:  An Intergalactic Soap Opera
     Futuropolis (sf art book edited by RS)
     Immortality, Inc.
     Is That What People Do?
     Journey Beyond Tomorrow (aka Journey of Joenes)
     Mindswap
     Notions: Unlimited
     Options
     People Trap
     Pilgrimage to Earth
     The Robot Who Looked Like Me
     Shards of Space
     The Status Civilization
     Store of Infinity
     Tenth Victim (aka Seventh Victim)
     Untouched by Human Hands
     The Worlds of Robert Sheckley

------------------------------

Date: 14-Mar-1986 1331
From: wood%hugo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste Wood)
Subject: "funny words" in NOBS



I'm posting because I have trouble getting through on usenet
addresses a lot.

Peter Kendell had a nice list of words from _Shadow...  My
vocabulary must be a bit different though, because some of the words
you questioned I already knew.

About 25 pages into the story -- when Severian is messing around in
the graveyard there is a wonderfully picturesc sentence about the
moon breaking out from behind the clouds and a shaft of light
hitting the ground like and amschaftspand. (sp? I don't have my book
to reference since I lent it out.)

I didn't notice the word the first time I read through, but when I
decided to hunt for some strange words I found it.  I was unable to
find this word in a dictionary.  Can you find it in yours?

Celeste Wood    (nermal%wood@decwrl.dec)

------------------------------

From: unmvax!wampler@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Wampler)
Subject: Favorite SF Books
Date: 13 Mar 86 17:12:17 GMT

        This has likely been done before, but not too recently, and
probably not in exactly this way.  I'd like to see what people's
favorite SF books are.  I know I can't give just one book, so I've
come up with the following categorizations:

All Time Favorite: If you could pick just one, this is the "best"
        SF novel you've ever read.
Favorite author:  Who is your favorite SF writer?
Hardest to put down:  There are some books that you just can't
        put down until you're finished.  This might be called the
        most exciting book you've read.
Best with computers:  Well, most of us use computers, so this
        one seems appropriate.
Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but
        has very unusual or interesting ideas.
Best series:  The best series of books by same author (e.g. Dune,
        Pern, etc.)
Best written: Just good writing that would stand up to any classic
        in any type of literature.
Other books: Any other standouts you want to mention for whatever
        reason.

        I have a collection of several hundred SF books, but I don't
think I've covered all the ground.  I find for the most part real
people can tell me more than any review, so I'd like to hear just
what net readers think are good books.  I'm not expecting a list of
"classics", just what YOU like.  To get things started, here's my
list:

All Time Favorite: _Stand on Zanzibar_, John Brunner
   This category is hard, and next week I'd probably pick a
   different book, but I like this one because I fear it might be
   too accurate in its predictions (early 21st century).  It is also
   very innovative in its writing style.

Favorite author: Philip Jose Farmer
Hardest to put down: Any of the Berserker series by Fred Saberhagen.
Best with computers: _Oath of Fealty_, Larry Niven/Jerry Pournelle.
   I WANT a mental hookup to a computer like MILLIE, too!
Most interesting/unusual: _The Crucible of Time_, John Brunner.
   The history of an intelligent life form evolved from plants.
Best series: Riverworld - Philip Jose Farmer
Best written: Most anything by Ursula K. LeGuin
Other books: Titan series, John Varley; Known Space series,
   Larry Niven; Majipoor series, Robert Silverberg

Dr. Bruce E. Wampler
University of New Mexico, CS Dept.
..{ucbvax | seismo!gatech | ihnp4!lanl}!unmvax!wampler

------------------------------

From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted
Date: 13 Mar 86 18:05:47 GMT

jamesp@orstcs.UUCP (jamesp) writes:
>Can anybody suggest a novel or collection about life as a
>Interstellar Merchant?  I am a Traveller enthusiast and want to
>find ideas for a gaming

The canonical interstellar merchant series is the Nicholas van Rijn
series by Poul Anderson. There are lots of titles;
_Trader_to_the_Stars_ and _The_Man_Who_Counts_ both come to mind.
They all seem to be of the "cunning old fat man [van Rijn] outwits
gorgeous young hulk" variety.

Norman Ramsey     norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

From: excalibur!210506860@caip.rutgers.edu (Wyle)
Subject: "need the title of a soviet sf story"
Date: 10 Mar 86 12:01:59 GMT

Someone told me of a Soviet SF short story in which the
story goes something like:
Military researchers develop a practical telepathy helmet which
allows minds to meld.  They give commando teams these helmets.  The
commandos prove in war game scenarios how practical the helmet is.
As the number of commandos increases, so does their combined
intelligence, and their success in the war games.  Finally, the
Russians try giving 20 commandos helmets, and they stop playing the
war game, reading poetry, smelling flowers etc. instead.  Anyone
know the name of the story, and where it was published?  It was not
in "Soviet Science Fiction" or "More Soviet SF."  Thanx in advance.
(Please respond by e-mail; don't post.)

Mitch
!ihnp4!psuvax1!vu-vlsi!excalibur!210506860

------------------------------

From: cad!grady@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Grady)
Subject: bad bad books
Date: 13 Mar 86 23:54:38 GMT

In a Spider Robnson book I was reading a few weeks ago, he says in
the introduction that one author made a bet about writing as bad a
book as possible, and the public loved it. He continued these
things, and the books are very successful.  Have people heard this
rumor?  My first thought is that it would be John Norman's _Gor_
books..

Steven
...!ucbvax!grady

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 14 March 1986 14:55:54 EST
From: Michael.Barton@henry.ece.cmu.edu
Subject: an old scary sf film

A friend of mine remembers being terrified as a very young child by
a horror sf film titled (approx.) "The Terrible Clock Man".  This
was a bw film which must have been made prior to 1955 and apparently
featured a character who could manipulate time (e.g. put you in the
ice age).  She would appreciate any information that anyone might
have about this.

thanks much
mike barton
mlb@henry.ece.cmu.edu

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: locus magazine subscription info
Date: 14 Mar 86 06:21:24 GMT

I've had a few requests for the Locus subscription info after my
comments on con lists. So, here it goes:

    Locus Magazine,
    P.O. Box 13305
    Oakland, CA. 94661
    (monthly, $24.00 a year)

Locus is a semi-prozine designed to get information about the SF and
Fantasy fields out to the serious reader or writers. It includes
market info, publication schedules, book reviews, con lists (and
reviews), lots of pictures of famous and not-so-famous people, some
continuing columns including one by Richard Curtiss on SF from the
agents point of view (one of the best places I've found for
practical information on the business side of writing) and all sorts
of stuff. If you're serious about reading or writing in the field,
it is a good investment.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.ARPA
FidoNet: 125/84
CompuServe: 73317,635
{decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: ecrcvax!snoopy@caip.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7, background info wanted
Date: 12 Mar 86 11:47:47 GMT

Number 7 is of course ORAK, the marvelous little computer with all
the blinky lights.

The plot is simple: nasty woman, Servelan, who is a servant to the
"Federation" (something nasty like the Empire in Star Wars) always
interferes with the rebels (a superset of Blakes 7).

Personally I love Servelan. She's so cool and menacing and sexy. Bit
of a praying mantis: you fall in love with her and then she bites
your head off...(which one is another matter ;-))

She has a tendency to crop up from time to time, giving everyone
headaches. Like JR Ewing, she is responsible for most of the
nastiness that hits the crew. No matter what happens, she in there
somewhere...

Love,
Seb
...\!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: SPOCK'S BRAIN...
Date: 13 Mar 86 14:57:25 GMT

        Spock's Brain was recently shown here. Whose fault was it?
Was Star Trek getting hard up for stories? Was it the Frieberger
factor?  Was this why G.L.C. used the psuedonym "Lee Cronin"?
        As you may have guessed by now, I didn't like it, very few
people did.  Strangely enough, I remembered it as being a good
episode from childhood days.  Ahh memories. A fan turned to me and
said, "I'm beginning to forget what a good Star Trek is like". I
comforted it (the fan) with, "Well next is The Enterprise Incident".
        To anyone who has seen the third season recently; Will it
improve?  Is the last season of any series always the worst? Is that
why it IS the last season?

Andy T.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 86 0929-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Mar 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:

                Books - Card & Kornbluth & Norton &
                        Robinson & Sime/Gen,
                Magazines - The Worlds of IF,
                Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: ORSON SCOTT CARD in Indianapolis/Inconjunction VI
Date: 12 Mar 86 22:09:29 GMT

Orson Scott Card and Michael Whelan (artist) will be the Guests of
Honor at INCONJUNCTION VI, the annual SF convention to be held in
Indianapolis, Indiana, July 4, 5, 6, 1986, at the Adam's Mark Hotel
near the Airport.

The convention will feature Mr. Card's "Secular Humanist Revival" as
well as displays of Mr. Whelan's artworks.  The Wet Khaftan Kontest,
a musical comedy play, panels, gaming, etc., and a masquerade dance
will ensure attendees of activities for three days.  Further
information will be posted if inquiries warrant.

arlan andrews

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: **Booklist** C. M. Kornbluth Books
Date: 15 Mar 86 05:06:05 GMT

You missed these Kornbluth books (without Fred Pohl)

Best SF Stories of Cyril M. Kornbluth   [faber & faber] 1968
Half [Lion Books] 1953 (Jordan Park pseudonym)
The Man of Cold Rages [Pyramid Books] 1958 (Jordan Park pseudonym)
The Mindworm [Michael Joseph] 1955
The Naked Storm [Lion Books] 1952 (Simon Eisner pseudonym)
Outpost Mars [Abelard] 1952 (Cyrill Judd pseudonym, with
    Judith Merril)
Thirteen O'Clock [Dell] 1970
Valerie [Lion Books] 1953 (Jordan Park pseudonym)

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** Andre Norton Books (VERY LONG COMPLETELY REVISED
Subject: LIST)
Date: 15 Mar 86 17:27:58 GMT

Additions and corrections per Dave Tallman and Henry Chai (with
     special thanks to Henry Chai for his help in reorganizing and
     categorizing the various series and subseries)

NORTON,ANDRE (pseud. Andrew North, Allen Weston, Mary Norton*)
             (born:  Alice Mary Norton)
             * Henry Chai has looked up Mary Norton and says that
               she is a different person, others have told me that
               she is the same person.  At this point I do not know!

Astra (AT#)                 These series numbers are generally
Blake Walker (BW#)          the order in which the books should
Drew Rennie (DR#)           be read and reflect the sequence of
Forerunner (FR#)            sequels.  One exception is the
     Simsa (SM#)            High Hallack subseries of the
Hosteen Storm (HS#)         Witch World series:
Janus (JA#)
Lorens van Norreys (LV#)    HH1 - HH3
Moon Singer (MS#)                    \
Murdoc Jern (MJ#)             HH2 - HH4 -HH5
Ross Murdock (RM#)
Shann Lantee (SL#)          This information courtesy of
Solar Queen (SQ#)           Henry Chai, University of Toronto
Star Ka'at (SK#)            Note also, that the Witch World
Witch World (WW#)           series has been renumbered.
     High Hallack (HH#)
     Simon Tregarth & Family (ST#)
& Miscellaneous:

   Android at Arms
   At Sword's Point (LV3)
   The Beast Master (HS1)
   The Book of Andre Norton (originally:  The Many Worlds of
      Andre Norton)
   Breed to Come
   Bullard of the Space Patrol
   Caroline
   Catseye
   The Crossroads of Time (BW1)
   Crosstime Agent (BW2) (aka Quest Crosstime)
   The Crystal Gryphon (WW8)(HH2)
   Dark Piper
   Daybreak 2250 A.D. (originally:  Star Man's Son)
   The Defiant Agents (RM3)
   Dragon Magic
   Dread Companion
   Exiles of the Stars (MS2)
   Eye of the Monster
   Follow the Drum
   Forerunner (FR2)(SM1)
   Forerunner Foray (FR1)
   Forerunner:  the Second Venture (FR3)(SM2)
   Fur Magic
   Galactic Derelict (RM2)
   Garan the Eternal
   Gray Magic (aka Steel Magic)
   The Gryphon in Glory (WW13)(HH4)
   Here Abide Monsters
   High Sorcery
   Horn Crown (WW15)
   Huon of the Horn
   Ice Crown
   Iron Butterflies
   Iron Cage
   Island of the Lost (LV2) (aka Sword in Sheath)
   The Jargoon Pard (WW9)(HH3)
   Judgement on Janus (JA1)
   Key Out of Time (RM4)
   Knave of Dreams
   The Last Planet (originally:  Star Rangers)
   Lavender-Green Magic
   Lord of Thunder (HS2)
   Lore of the Witch World (WW14)
   The Many Worlds of Andre Norton (aka The Book of Andre Norton)
   Merlin's Mirror
   Moon Called
   Moon of Three Rings (MS1)
   Night of Masks
   No Night Without Stars
   Octagon Magic
   The Opal-Eyed Fan
   Operation Time Search
   Ordeal in Otherwhere (SL2)
   Outside
   Perilous Dreams
   Plague Ship (SQ2)
   Postmarked the Stars (SQ4)
   The Prince Commands
   Quag Keep
   Quest Crosstime (BW2) (aka Crosstime Agent)
   Ralestone Luck
   Rebel Spurs (DR2)
   Red Hart Magic
   Ride Proud Rebel (DR1)
   Rogue Reynard
   Sargasso of Space (SQ1)
   Scarface
   Sea Siege
   Secret of the Lost Race (aka Wolfshead)
   Shadow Hawk
   The Sioux Spaceman
   Snow Shadow
   Sorceress of the Witch World (WW6)(ST5)
   Spell of the Witch World (WW7)
   Stand & Deliver
   Stand to Horse
   Star Born (AT2)
   Star Gate
   Star Guard
   Star Hunter
   Star Man's Son (aka Daybreak--2250 A.D.)  CHECKOUT!!!
   Star Rangers (aka The Last Planet)
   The Stars are Ours (AT1)
   Steel Magic (aka Grey Magic)
   Storm Over Warlock (SL1)
   Sword in Sheath (LV2) (aka The Island of the Lost)
   The Sword is Drawn (LV1)
   Ten Mile Treasure
   Three Against the Witch World (WW4)(ST3)
   The Time Traders (RM1)
   Trey of Swords (WW10)
   Uncharted Stars (MJ2)
   Velvet Shadows
   Victory on Janus (JA2)
   Voodoo Planet (SQ3)
   Voorloper
   'Ware Hawk (WW16)
   Warlock of the Witch World (WW5)(ST4)
   Web of the Witch World (WW2)(ST2)
   Were-Wrath
   Wheel of Stars
   The White Jade Fox
   Witch World (WW1)(ST1)
   Wolfshead (aka Secret of the Lost Race)
   Wraiths of Time
   The X Factor
   Yankee Privateer
   Year of the Unicorn (WW3)(HH1)
   Yurth Burden (WW11)
   Zarsthor's Bane (WW12)
   Zero Stone (MJ1)

Children's Books:  (written as Mary Norton)

   The Borrowers
   The Borrowers Afield
   The Borrowers Aloft (?)
   The Borrowers Avenged

NORTON, ANDRE & A. C. CRISPIN
   Gryphon's Eyrie (WW17)(HH5)

NORTON, ANDRE & PHYLLIS MILLER
   House of Shadows
   Seven Spells to Sunday

NORTON, ANDRE & DOROTHY MADLEE
   Star Ka'at (SK1)
   Star Ka'at World (SK2)
   Star Ka'ats & the Plant People (SK3)
   Star Ka'ats & the Winged Warriors (SK4)

NORTON, ANDRE & BERTHA STEMME NORTON
   Bertie and May

NORTON, ANDRE & MICHAEL GILBERT
   Day of the Ness

NORTON, ANDRE & GRACE ALLEN HOGARTH
   Murders for Sale

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Spider Robinson's NIGHT OF POWER
Date: 13 Mar 86 07:32:37 GMT

Robinson, Spider. NIGHT OF POWER.
  (Berkley, January 1986, pb, 287 pp., $2.95. ISBN 0-425-008475-2.)

Before discussing the merits of Mr. Robinson's latest novel, I find
it necessary to disclose that I do in fact believe in Hell, and, in
particular, I believe that there is a place in Hell where the
temperature is kept at an exquisitely painful degree and where
demons laugh with glee while torturing those confined there. This is
the place reserved for the people that design paperback book jackets
and write the cover blurbs.

The Berkley cover for NIGHT OF POWER shows three urban
terrorist-punks, presumably white, one with a hockey mask, one with
a Mohawk, and one with merely a menacing expression, wielding
various weapons in front of a burning suspension bridge. The teaser
reads, "A FAMILY IS TRAPPED IN A CITY'S HOLOCAUST!"

No, Spider Robinson hasn't written the sequel to ESCAPE FROM NEW
YORK.  The front cover teaser (and its back cover companion, "NEW
YORK IS BURNING!")  are both textually incorrect. I have mentioned
the excesses of cover blurbists to both authors and publishers, both
of whom seem to mumble and shuffle their feet uncomfortably when the
subject is broached.  I would have hoped that Mr. Robinson was
sufficiently well-connected in the SF publishing industry by now to
insist on a contractual right of approval of the pb cover (I haven't
seen the Baen hardcover jacket; perhaps someone could describe it?).
Apparently he isn't, or else it's his idea of a good joke.

Anyway, this is Robinson's race relations novel, a subject that
seemed to drop out of both SF and mainstream literature around 1970
or so.  Each of us has had since about 1966 to form our own opinions
on the subject, so there's little point in attempting to dissect
Robinson's (or his protagonists') precise ideology of racial
relations. It will suffice to say that they are well thought-out,
interesting, and provocative, regardless of whether you agree or
disagree.

NIGHT OF POWER is a Heinleinian novel, much in the tradition of THE
MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS or IF THIS GOES ON. It is a novel of ideas
and politics; the characters are *utterly* competent like Heinlein's
but are somehow not as interesting as the usual Robinson cast. (With
the exception of Jennifer, a precocious 13-year old, and her
bodyguard and friend, Jose.)  The plot follows the fairly routine
path of Ordinary Family Gets Mixed up in Major Events. (The main
characters, parents of the 13-year old, are of course an interracial
couple, which I suppose is the Lowest Common Denominator of race
relations.) Throughout the book, Robinson shows he can discuss
political issues without being didactic or boring.  Along the way
are lots and lots of observations on the nature of cities, methods
of self-defense, forms of government, popular music, and a
reasonable number of puns.

Robinson is probably getting tired of being compared with Heinlein;
NIGHT OF POWER certainly will not cause anyone to stop.

This isn't Spider Robinson's best book, but it isn't his worst, and
it it's still one of the better books I've read this last year. Race
is a tremendously difficult subject to deal with in fiction without
being strident or preachy; Robinson is about 90% successful in this
regard.  I know that many of us thought that racial tension in this
country magically ended with the 1960s; NIGHT OF POWER may convince
you otherwise whatever your views on the subject.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Where are the Sime Fans
Date: 11 Mar 86 22:36:27 GMT

"Mahogany Trinrose" was my favorite.  The character of the heroine,
and the descriptions of her experiences were excellent.  I can't
remember the names of the other 2 I read--but didn't think they were
nearly as fine.

I got all 3 at the library some time ago, and had not realized they
ever came out in paperback until I found 2 at the used book store.

Glad to know there were so many of this series.  I'll have to keep
an eye out.

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

From: mcomp!mic@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 11 Mar 86 19:51:00 GMT

Regarding Chug Von Rospach's request for more information about the
return of WORLDS OF IF:

WORLDS OF IF is returning in more than one form this spring. Micro
Information Concepts will be reproducing all of the back issues in
both black and white, and color (covers) microfiche.  More
information about this as well as other available science
fiction/fantasy micro publications will be posted on the net
shortly.  It is because of this that I can shed some light on your
request for further information.

It is my understanding that:

1) WORLDS OF IF is returning and will be continuing the publishing
of speculative fiction stories similar to the original version.
There will be few restrictions on subject matter.

2) Both established and new writers will be featured.

3) Those who wish to submit manuscripts for review are encouraged to
do so in the usual manner. (i.e. SASE, double spaced, cover letter
with author background information etc.)  Pays $0.01 - 0.03/word for
accepted work.

4) The publisher/editor is Clifford Hong who may be reached at
WORLDS OF IF, P.O. Box 93, Hicksville, NY 11802

There is one important omission in the Locus advertisement.  The
$6.50 subscription rate is only available for a limited time and
should be responded to promptly.  An SASE for subscriptions is not
necessary but rather refers to specific information requests and
manuscript submissions.

That is just about all I know of the WORLDS OF IF return (in paper).
I hope it helps some.

Gary Lewin
usenet:        {infoswx!mcomp!, texsun!rrm!}         mic!gary
Micro Information Concepts

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 86  18:33:22 EST
From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide

     To the best of my knowledge, tapes of the original BBC radio
versions of the Hitchhiker's guide are not commercially available.
They were, however broadcast largely uncut by National Public Radio
in the states a couple of years ago.  There are 12, 30-minute
episodes in all.  They closely parrallel the first book for the
first few episodes, but not entirely.  Some of the material in the
second two books also appears, although sometimes in wildly
different contexts, and, by the second 6 episodes, there is almost
no similarity to the written 'adaptations'.  The fourth book
probably hadn't even been concieved at the time the scripts were
being written.  Anyway, you can probably find someone who taped the
series from NPR who would be willing to make copies.  (The radio
series is also different from both records and TV series, BTW).
     Has anyone heard anything more on the film adaptation?  I
talked to Adams at Boskone several years ago, and he was working on
it then.  I have also heard mention of it several times since then
from different sources, but I have no idea what's actually being
done on the project, if anything...

Peter E. Lee
(Fuligin%UMass.BitNet@WisCVM.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Mr. Blore)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's nitpicking
Date: 15 Mar 86 21:27:09 GMT

trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes:
>Let us examine the question found by the caveman back on old Earth-
>
>"What do you get if you multiply six by nine"
>
>A while ago, I noticed that you can't get this from a normal set of
>scrabble tiles, as you don't have four y's.

 But it wasn't a normal set of tiles.  Arthur made it himself, and
must have put in extra y's.  Or maybe two of the y's were blanks.

Mr. Blore
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: warwick!sfsoc@caip.rutgers.edu (Science Fiction + Fantasy
From: Society)
Subject: Re: Hitch-hicker
Date: 14 Mar 86 22:45:22 GMT

>From: E. Wesley Miller Jr. <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
>  There are 2 two-albumn sets that make up the HHGTTG and TRATEOTU.
>  They are produced by HANNIBAL RECORDS, 611 Broadway, Suite 415,
>  New York, New York 10012. The albumn numbers are HNBL2301 and
>  HNBL 1307, the first albumn is 2301. These are taken from the BBC
>  radio 4 series.

Sorry, but this is not the case. The two albums were recorded
specifically for record, NOT from the BBC radio recordings. The most
noticable difference is that the black ship is the Disaster Area
stuntship, not the alien polymorphs' flagship. There are other
differences in the script etc.

If you're looking for these LPs in the UK, they're on Original
Records; I don't know the catalogue no.s offhand. Beware! The first
album is very hard to get hold of.

UWSF&FS
131 Arts Fed Pigeonholes
Uni. of Warwick
Coventry    CV 47 AL
UK
sfsoc@warwick.uucp - anyone out there want to tell me my path?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Mar 86 0923-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 20 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:

                 Administrivia - A gentle reminder,
                 Books - Anderson & Farmer & Herbert &
                         Pohl & Wolfe (3 msgs) & 
                         Fantasy Authors &
                         Biographies of SF Writers,
                 Films - Brazil,
                 Television - Dr. Who,
                 Miscellaneous - SFL T-Shirts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 86 08:57:02 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: A gentle reminder

   As a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be
added to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc.,
should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.  Submissions for the
digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.  If you use the wrong
address for the wrong purpose your message will probably get
ignored.  This means that messages intended for the digest that are
sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS will probably never get into the
digest!
   Also, please keep submissions to one topic.  That makes it a
lot easier for me to work with and it is easier for others to reply
as well.
   Thank you for your cooperation.

Saul

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: **Booklist** Poul Anderson Books (Revised)
Date: 12 Mar 86 03:30:21 GMT

Last correction by Lia Adams, Randy Neff and myself.

ANDERSON, POUL

Polesotechnic League (Van Rijn or Trader, series):

   The Man Who Counts (aka War of the Wing-Men)
   The Trouble Twisters
   Trader to the Stars
   Satan's World
   Mirkheim
   The Earth Book of Stormgate

Polesotechnic League (Flandry, series):

   Ensign Flandry
   A Circus of Hells
   The Rebel Worlds
   Mayday Orbit (A Message in Secret)
   Earthman, Go Home (A Plague of Masters)
   We Claim These Stars (A Handful of Stars)
   A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows
   Agent of the Terran Empire
   A Stone in Heaven
   Flandry of Terra
   Mayday Orbit
   Earthman, Go Home
   The Game of Empire

Polesotechnic League (Associated Novels):

   The People of the Wind
   The Day of Their Return
   The Long Night
   The Night Face (aka The Night Face & Other Stories,
      Let Spaceman Beware)

Psycho-Technic League:

   The Peregrine (aka Star Ways)
   Psycho-Technic League
   Virgin Planet
   Cold Victory
   Starship

Last Viking series:

   The Last Viking:  Book One, the Golden Horn
   The Road of the Sea Horse (#2)
   Sign of the Raven (#3)

Other Novels:

   After Doomsday
   Agent of Vega
   The Avatar
   The Best of Poul Anderson
   Beyond the Beyond
   The Book of Poul Anderson
   Brain Wave
   The Broken Sword
   The Byworlder
   Conan the Rebel
   Conflict
   The Corridors of Time
   The Dancer From Atlantis
   The Dark Between the Stars
   The Devil's Game
   Dialogue With Darkness
   The Enemy Stars
   Explorations
   Fantasy
   Fire Time
   The Fox, the Dog, and the Griffin (childrens)
   The Gods Laughed
   The Golden Slave (historical)
   The Guardians of Time
   The High Crusade
   Homebrew
   Homeward and Beyond
   The Horn of Time
   Hrolf Kraki's Saga
   Is There Life on Other Worlds? (non-fiction speculation)
   The Long Way Home (aka No World of Their Own)
   Makeshift Rocket
   Many Worlds of Poul Anderson
   Maurai & Kith
   The Merman's Children
   A Midsummer Tempest
   Murder Bound (mystery)
   Murder in Black Letter (mystery)
   Nebula Awards Four (edited by P.A.)
   New America
   No World of Their Own (see The Long way Home)
   Operation Chaos
   Orbit Unlimited
   Orion Shall Rise
   Past Times
   Perish By the Sword (mystery)
   Planet of No Return (see Q & A)
   Queen of Air and Darkness
   Question and Answer (aka Planet of No Return)
   Rogue Sword (historical)
   Seven Conquests
   Shield
   The Snows of Ganymede & War of the Wing-Men
   The Star Fox
   Strangers From Earth
   Tales of the Flying Mountains
   Tau Zero
   There Will Be Time
   Three Hearts & Three Lions
   Three Worlds to Conquer
   Time & Stars
   Time Patrolman
   Twilight World
   UnMan and Other Novellas
   Vault of the Ages
   War of Two Worlds
   Winners
   The Winter of the World
   A World Named Cleopatra (group written, initiated by P.A.)
   The World's of Poul Anderson
      Planet of No Return
      War of Two Worlds
      World Without Stars
   World Without Stars

ANDERSON, POUL & GORDON R. DICKSON
   Earthman's Burden (Hoka #1)
   Hoka (Hoka #2)
   Phu Nham
   Star Prince Charlie

ANDERSON, POUL & KAREN ANDERSON
   The Unicorn Trade

ANDERSON, POUL & MILDRED DOWNEY BROXON
   The Demon of Scattery

ANDERSON, POUL & GORDON EKLUND
   Inheritors of Earth

ANDERSON, POUL & MARTIN GREENBURG, CHARLES WAUGH (editors)
   Mercenaries of Tomorrow

ANDERSON, POUL & GORDON R. DICKSON, ROBERT SILVERBERG
   The Day the Sun Stood Still

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: P.J. Farmer **Booklist**
Date: 16 Mar 86 12:44:10 GMT

I don't usually respond to these lists, but I couldn't pass this one
up.

> From: tekigm2!wrd     (Bill Dippert)
> Riverworld Series:
> [...]
>     Tarzan Alive (??)

No, TARZAN ALIVE is not part of the Riverworld series. It, along
with DOC SAVAGE: HIS APOCALYPTIC LIFE, it a pseudo-biography of the
character.  Farmer "claims" that Tarzan (and Doc Savage as well) was
a real person, and is related to all sorts of real and fictional
characters.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_abg@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Goldfedder)
Subject: frank herbert
Date: 17 Mar 86 02:58:10 GMT

First: yes although all know it Frank Herbert is dead.
Second:  There are 2 more Dune books on the way
Question: How?

    Frank Herbert had already completed one dune book (past
Chapterhouse) and was working on the second one with his son.  His
son is expected to finish the second book and they should both hit
the shelves later this year.

Later,
Brandon Goldfedder @jhunix

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: review, Frederik Pohl's "The Merchants' War"
Date: 13 Mar 86 15:28:32 GMT

geoff@ism780c.UUCP (Geoff Kimbrough) writes:
> norman@batcomputer.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) writes:
>>Would someone knowledgable care to comment on the relationship
>>between this work and Pohl and Kornbluth's classic
>>_The_Space_Merchants_?
>
> Ok, TMW is two (two! two! books in one!) books in one binding.
> Part One IS _The Space Merchants_, and part Two is the sequel.  I
> haven't seen the sequel (sorry, the (sub)title escapes me)
> published separately.

I just recently purchased "The Merchants' War" and NO, NO, NO, it
did not include "The Space Merchants" as "part one".  TMW is a
separate book!!!

Caveat: I purchased both as pocket books, the hard back editions may
be different.  BUT: the pocket books are two separate books, not
both bound together.

Bill

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (Spoilers possible)
Date: 17 Mar 86 16:06:00 GMT

patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes:
>I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible.

I'll second that!  This was an outstandingly bad novel.  Yet it
seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must issue forth onto
the net to demonstrate why there's such a large and uncritical
market for so much bad SF.

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Wolfe the best?
Date: 16 Mar 86 05:47:53 GMT

jimb@ism780 writes:
>A vehement demur here.  Comparing Card to Wolfe is like comparing
>Tim Zahn to Robert Heinlein, Tim Powers to Ursula LeGuin, SKZB to
>vintage Zelazny, etc.  They're passable, good even.  Show promise
>of putting it all together, whether on a revolutionary basis (Zahn)
>or evolutionary (Powers & SKZB).  But as far as being anywhere near
>close right now, I think not.  ENDER'S GAME was a better than
>average book and probably will wind up on this year's Hugo ballot
>and may win the Nebula.  But it is not a heads-above-the-field work
>that the Wolfe was, or that Brin's was.  It is good, fast-paced
>space opera augmented with much-better-than-usual psychological
>insights, but basically, that's it.

    While I agree with you about Card ("Ender's Game" I haven't read
but will shortly, my opinion is based on "Hot Sleep") I must demur
on Tim Powers. His "Drawing of the Dark" and "Dinner at Deviant's
Palace" were both quite good.  But "The Anubis Gates" is something
else again. It has a quality of crazed imagination that is way
beyond most SF authors. I think Powers is better than Brin even
though I like Brin. I also think LeGuin wrote only one book which is
worth comparing to "Anubis Gates" -- "Left Hand of Darkness".

    Aside from all that, since Heinlein caught the galloping
brain-rot, I see no reason to say Zahn isn't as good, or better. (I
haven't read his latest, though. "Friday" and "Job" are signs he is
recovering, so who knows?).

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Wolfe the best?
Date: 14 Mar 86 02:55:43 GMT

   I read "Hot Sleep", and it impressed me as being the usual
semi-literate sci-fi trashola. Amusing, but partly because of things
like "Estonian twicks" that made no sense.

   Probably you are aware of the "Old Masters" like H.G. Wells and
C.S. Lewis; also "A Canticle for Liebowitz" if you haven't read it
already. Some of Karel Capek's stuff is very good, and no doubt you
have run across Lem. If you can hypnotize yourself into believing it
is sci-fi, try Nabokov's "Ada". It should be high-brow enough for
you, anyway! And of course, truly desperate persons can attempt to
believe that Borges, Kafka, Milton, etc. etc. are really "sci-fi".

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

From: fritz!lauri@caip.rutgers.edu (Lauri McFadden)
Subject: Fantasy Author Contributors
Date: 14 Mar 86 03:06:00 GMT

I want to thank all of you who have responded to my plea for fantasy
authors..  However, I feel the (probably unjustified) need to defend
my literary tastes.

I explained that I was in a rut and that I wanted some suggestions
for fantasy authors.  That did not mean that I only read fantasy.
So you hard-core science fiction readers can rest easy....I like
science fiction too.  Not to mention the classics, mythology,
mysteries, etc., etc.  My bookshelf is quite full of a variety of
literature.  At this time I am having fun reading fantasies and at
another time I will probably get into something else.  So right now
I choose to broaden my fantasy horizons.....

For those of you who are interested in fantasy, I will post a
summary of the suggestions I receive when they stop trickling in.

I feel better now....I hope this didn't cost anyone too much time to
read.

Lauri L. McFadden
FileNet Corp
trwrb!felix!lauri

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 86 12:33:47 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: bios of SF writers

   THE FUTURIANS by Damon Knight is an extensive bio of a group of
fans who became probably the most concentrated SF writing talent
ever---the one group produced Blish, Lowndes, Knight, Pohl,
Kornbluth, agent "Dirk Wylie", editors Merril & Wollheim, and so on.
Pohl said (on tour promoting _The Way the Future Was_) that it was
excessively gossipy; it does include a lot of who was doing what to
whom and how John Michel, the group's most notable failure, wound
up, but it's still a remarkable book (Knight put together everything
from old fanzines to contemporary interviews with the survivors).

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: BRAZIL
Date: 13 Mar 86 17:44:48 GMT

>From: alfke@csvax.caltech.edu
>In his review of "Brazil", Mark Leeper writes:
>> The book [1984] was his prediction from the viewing point of 1948
>> of what the next 36 years could bring.  It is a moot point how
>> accurate his prediction was, but the book is still a valuable
>> yardstick for measuring our current world.
>Orwell was describing things that already existed in the world of
>1948 and making them more obvious, not trying to predict 1984.  To
>view it as prophecy makes it seem safer, but that wasn't his aim.

Yes most of the elements were around, but not to the degree in the
novel.  It is sort of an "if this goes on" science fiction story.

>> One exception, I think, is the Fresnel lens . . .
>
>The Fresnel lens was invented by Messr. Fresnel sometime in the
>19th century

Yes, though I don't know if the one piece fresnel lenses as shown in
the film were.  I only started seeing them in the 60's, but I conced
the lenses were around before, so the point that is was all
refinement of existing technology is even stronger than I thought.

>Conclusive comment:
>** Everyone go out and see "Brazil" as soon as possible **

No way!  I liked the film a lot, but is sure isn't everybody's cup
of tea.  I am surprised it is doing as well as it is but my
recommendation is that if people liked 1984, they should see BRAZIL.
That is most of us but by no means everyone.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: jhunix!jor_d015@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Companions of Dr. Who written out.
Date: 14 Mar 86 03:21:55 GMT

ins_ajpo@jhunix.UUCP (Adric of Alzarius) writes:
>Because K9 had such a large following, the BBC started a Dr.Who
>spin-off which starred K9 and Elisabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane Smith
>called "K9 and Company."  This show didn't have quite the following
>that the BBC hoped it would.  This show only lasted one season in
>England.  I've seen one episode of it and it didn't seem to have
>the "pizazz" (sp) that Dr.Who had.  K9 and Sarah Jane didn't seem
>to mix too well.

It only lasted one episode, not one season--it was a one-shot
special.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: ...allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
Date: Monday, 17 Mar 1986 21:38-EST
Subject: T-shirts

Update on T-Shirt situation:

1) The original artwork to the SF-LOVERS T-shirt seems well and
truely lost. No one has volunteered knowledge of the location of the
art, and it seems likely the holder of such is no longer reading
SFL.

2) A good portion of the people who had comments about my plans said
"I'd love to order a few, but please can it be something other than
the bug-eyed monster..."

3) No one seemed to object to the logistics of the plan.

Therefore:

   I have asked an artist friend of mine to draw up some new artwork
for a T-shirt. This will *not* be the bug-eyed monster! The general
lines I suggested to him were as follows:

The art will show a spaceship bridge, with a large viewport looking
out into space. A gas giant will be visible on one side of the port.
Two people will be seen on the bridge. One will be looking out the
port. The other will be peering at a terminal display. The display
will read:

<TOP OF SCREEN>
Date: Feburary 30, 2836  1224 EST
From: Lazurus Long <SF-LOVERS-REQUESTS@EARTH.SOL.MILKYWAY>
To: SF-LOVERS@EARTH.SOL.MILYWAY
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 1254, Number 54

Todays Topics:
<BOTTOM OF SCREEN>

Comments?

James Turner
ARPA     ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
UUCP     {decvax,sri-unix,ima,linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn
MAIL     329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Mar 86 0958-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 20 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust & Eddings & Hubbard & Lee &
                     Niven & Robinson & Wolfe (2 msgs) &
                     Bad Books (2 msgs) & Fantasy Authors (2 msgs),
             Television - Teri Garr & The Twilight Zone (2 msgs) &
                     Amazing Stories & Dr. Who,
             Miscellaneous - Harper's Article on SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aecom2!eliovson@caip.rutgers.edu (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Brokedown Palace
Date: 13 Mar 86 23:58:13 GMT

        Brokedown Palace is Steven Brust's latest effort to appear
on the stands.  I picked it up about two months ago.  The story is
unrelated to the Jhereg/Yendi books.  While Jhereg/Yendi represent
adventure, a twisting, unpredictable plot and some magical/psychic
elements and overall excitement, Brokedown Palace is a revival of
sorts.  Any true lover of ancient fantasy, legend or myth will be
enchanted by Steve's "Interludes" which are scattered along the
whole length of the novel.  The story alone, his writing, etc. also
has merit and deserves attention.  For me, the attraction lies
mainly in the Interludes which establish an air of history and depth
and add to and enhance the story greatly.

        To any new reader of Steven Brust: I recommend Jhereg and
Yendi highly, as well as Brokedown Palace.

Moshe Eliovson
...!philabs!aecom!aecom2!eliovson

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Belgariad (slight spoilers)
Date: 17 Mar 86 19:15:18 GMT

It wins my award for using *every single* fantasy cliche character
and situation. Truly, every one. In fact, you could make a list of
trite fantasy situations from this book:

  The Prophecy - A neophyte finds out that s/he is destined to
                 fulfill a prophecy.
  The Quest - A small band of adventurers set out to recover some
              goodie.
  The Neophyte - Someone just discovers they have magical powers.
  The Ancient Wizard - Belgarath. Gandalf. etc.
  The Thief - Silk, Gray Mouser, etc.
  The Barbarian - Barak, Fafhrd, Conehead (er, Conan), etc.
  The Sorceress - Polgara, all those elf queens in Tolkien, etc.
  Shape Changers.
  Overbearing Kings. Kindly Kings. Kings of every shape and flavour.
  Populations of beings of ancient power who don't mix with
     human affairs much (although they always seem to at some point
     in the story) - The Dryads.
  Gods and Goddesses incarnate before your very eyes.
  Ultimate Evil. I always find myself rooting for the bad guys.
     They're always so misunderstood, and are always holding
     innocent populations in terrible bondage. Jack Chalker puts it
     best: "There's always some Dark something or other or Baron of
     this or Prince of that"...

Almost every character is a stereotype. And the situations, too.
Yet, I still liked the series, particularly when they're in that
country of the snake people.

Incidentially, I have to nominate Patricia Wrede as runner up in the
"Trite Character and Situations" awards.

Bruce Holloway
....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

From: minnie!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Grevstad)
Subject: New L. Ron Hubbard book
Date: 16 Mar 86 08:06:01 GMT

Just noticed the second volume of the Mission Earth dekalogy 'Black
Genesis' in my neighborhood bookstore today.  $18.95, so I think I
will wait for it to be discounted as the first one was.

Anybody read it yet?

Chris Grevstad
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris
ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!chris
ihnp4!nrcvax!chris

------------------------------

From: aecom2!eliovson@caip.rutgers.edu (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Highly Recommended!
Date: 14 Mar 86 00:08:34 GMT

               Death's Master          by Tanith Lee

   Allow me to recommend to all lovers of powerful narrative this
fine book.
   From the first words of this story I knew I was going to love it.
Therefore I resisted the temptation to devour it in one sitting and
savored it for about three days when, alas, the story reached its
finish.  So, I've re-read it 43 times so far....

   Well, it certainly deserves some revisiting.  Why you ask?

   The story involves quite a few characters, four of major import.
First there is Simmu, the resulting offspring of a very unusual
relationship.  Then there is Zhirem, a child forged by his mother in
the fires of Hell at a very young age.  Next there are the two
"un-cousins", Uluhme, Lord of Death and then the Lord of Demons.
Enter the folds of the books covers and follow the path of fate for
a while while the lives of the two former characters unfold.

   The story is the pure distillation of supreme fantasy.  Powerful
forces, magic, beautiful women, and men, and boys, and girls, the
dead, those who live unnaturally long...  you will find every fine
ingredient you could wish for in this book.

Moshe Eliovson
...!philabs!aecom!aecom2!eliovson

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: "Breeder" Reaction
Date: 17 Mar 86 02:46:02 GMT

     Every time I hear the word "breeder" used as a synonym for
"straight" I am irresistibly reminded of Larry Niven's sci-fi novel
"The Protector".  In this book, "breeders" are persons up to the age
of ~45, whereas "protectors" are a further stage in which sexual
characteristics disappear and intelligence greatly increases. This
has a strange affinity to sociobiological theories on the cause of
homosexuality.  In this theory, gays are "protectors" of sorts,
although sexual and not super intelligent. In Niven's book,
"protectors" had only ONE motivation: protection of their progeny or
other relatives. So the analogy is bad, but it still makes me crack
up.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson's NIGHT OF POWER
Date: 17 Mar 86 16:03:09 GMT

mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>NIGHT OF POWER is a Heinleinian novel, much in the tradition of THE
>MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS or IF THIS GOES ON. It is a novel of ideas
>and politics; the characters are *utterly* competent like
>Heinlein's but are somehow not as interesting as the usual Robinson
>cast. (With the exception of Jennifer, a precocious 13-year old,
>and her bodyguard and friend, Jose.)  The plot follows the fairly
>routine path of Ordinary Family Gets Mixed up in Major Events. (The
>main characters, parents of the 13-year old, are of course an
>interracial couple, which I suppose is the Lowest Common
>Denominator of race relations.) Throughout the book, Robinson shows

There are a couple of things I would like to add to this review
which I think are worth mentioning. First is that when I read this
book it all but screamed I AM A STUDENT OF ROBERT HEINLEIN from
every page.  I would have enjoyed it more without this. The other is
that the book's ending is very weak: MILD SPOILER --- the main
character, Jennifer's Dad, suddenly, inexplicably, and unbelievable
stops behaving like the well-bred, right-thinking man we all know he
is. This goes on for a short time, then suddenly he undergoes
another psychological reversal (truth and justice are revealed, or
whatever), and the psychological "conflict" is "resolved." I found
the whole business very artificial and it badly weakened an
otherwise enjoyable book.

Norman Ramsey
norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 18 Mar 86 10:22:44-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Castle of the Otter

Hello,

I'm interested in obtaining Wolfe's "Castle of the Otter" at a
reasonable price (i.e., not a collector's edition).  Does anyone
know if it ever came out in paperback, or was ever offered by the
Science Fiction Book Club?  (If the latter, do you have the order
number?  I wrote them about this, but received no response.)
Finally, who put out the regular hardcover edition?  Any help will
be appreciated!  Thanks.

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 18 Mar 86 16:41:13-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Castle of the Otter, pt. 2

Well, wouldn't you know that the same day I sent this list my
request for info on an inexpensive copy of "Castle of the Otter", I
returned home to find a package from the SF Book Club.  They went
ahead and sent me a copy (though I only asked if they had it).
Anyway, for anyone who is interested, the cost from them is 6.55
(4.50 + tax & shipping).

Steve Dennett

------------------------------

From: mpm@hpfcms
Subject: Re: bad bad books
Date: 15 Mar 86 22:19:00 GMT

Re:  bad writing becoming a commercial success

     This reminds me of a best-seller from years ago called "Naked
Came a Stranger".  I heard about it on a late night talk show.  Some
well-know author wrote up a plot outline for a "sex" story and
solicited contributions from other writers.  He edited it all into a
novel, making sure that any "good" writing was "blue-pencilled into
oblivion", and published it.  He had his secretary pose for the back
cover photograph, and she even made the rounds of various talk
shows.
     The point of all this was to show how easy it is to sell a book
"to the unwashed multitudes" - when it is sufficiently promoted -
even "bad" writing.  As I remember it, the book became a best-seller
AFTER this fraud was revealed (by the man whose idea it was, and on
those same talk shows he supposedly despised).  Now how many readers
of this group have ever read the book?
     This all reminds me of the recent "revelation" that Stephen
King wrote four novels under the pen name Bachman.  Those books now
have HIS name on the cover, and probably sell far better than they
did before.  (And Stephen has some more money which may motivate him
to continue to write books that people like to read.  ... or, it may
not.)

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: bad bad books
Date: 17 Mar 86 19:05:45 GMT

> In a Spider Robnson book I was reading a few weeks ago, he says in
> the introduction that one author made a bet about writing as bad a
> book as possible, and the public loved it. He continued these
> things, and the books are very successful.  Have people heard this
> rumor?  My first thought is that it would be John Norman's _Gor_
> books..
>       Steven
>       ...!ucbvax!grady

   My own money would be on the "Xanth" books, if I were a wagering
individual (but I'm not).  Just compare "On a Pale Horse" to "Golem
in the Gears" to see the differences in one writer's style.

(ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj

------------------------------

From: hyper!mark@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Mendel)
Subject: Re: fantasy authors
Date: 14 Mar 86 19:55:52 GMT

Oops!  Glaring omission from my list: [I hear there's a contract out
on me!]

   Steve Brust, "Jhereg", "Yendi", soon: "Tecla" - Sword & Sorcery
             "To Reign in Hell", "Brokedown Palace"

------------------------------

From: hyper!mark@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Mendel)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations
Date: 14 Mar 86 19:39:38 GMT

The only fantasy authors I know of are:

        Kilgore Trout
        S. Morgenstern
:)

Here, however, are some real authors who write fantasy:

   John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"       - light but deep - ****
   Charles de Lint,  "Moonheart", others - magic in modern day Canada
   ? Macavoy, "Tea w/ the Black Dragon" - ***
   name??arg!, "Dragon Bane", the Dark series, "Ladies of Madrygan"
        -***

Mark Mendel @ Mpls Fannish Programmers Corp.
aka Network Systems Corporation

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Teri Garr in Star Trek
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 86 17:08:31 PST

        Once in a blue moon, while I'm watching series television,
one of the interchangeable bimbos they throw in to spice up the plot
actually grabs and keeps my attention.  The first time this happened
to me was the "Gary Seven" episode of Star Trek, in its original
broadcast, and the actress was Teri Garr.  Many years later I heard
it was the first role she ever got; certainly I was impressed enough
at the time to pick her name off the credits and remember it.  I've
followed her career with interest to the present day.  A mutual
friend assures me that she's as intelligent as she doesn't look, and
as nice as she does look.  I like her a lot.

------------------------------

From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Caplinger)
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke on TWILIGHT ZONE?
Date: 17 Mar 86 02:18:28 GMT

I heard somewhere that TWILIGHT ZONE had done an adaptation of AC
Clarke's "The Star".  Is it true?  Did they make the narrator a
Jesuit priest, as in the story?  I'm wondering if it's worth waiting
for the rerun.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.arpa
ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke on TWILIGHT ZONE? (spoiler)
Date: 18 Mar 86 18:49:31 GMT

        I have seen the adaption, it is NOT worth waiting for. They
screwed up the story ENTIRELY. It progresses along just like the
story until the very end. At the end of the story, the priest is
left with a major moral question. In the TV show, they added an
extra "twist", the dead race left a smarmy message "not to grieve
for us, we have done all we can, we go on to better things, etc.".
That addition totally ruined the entire point of the story.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES
Date: 17 Mar 86 19:24:41 GMT

boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>I hate to tell you this, but the Leprechaun episode described above
>was on TWLIGHT ZONE, not AMAZING STORIES. I'm positive about this,
>because I stopped watching AS after about the first half-dozen
>shows, but have seen most of the TZ's, and this episode was on last
>month sometime.

Really? Damn. I really hated that episode, and I guess I just
remembered it as Amazing Stories. How about that dumb one with Loni
Anderson and Dom DeLuise, or that one where meteors made a jock and
a nerdette magnetic, etc.

But I really liked that Alfy Hitchcock episode with John Huston
where he bets this guy he can't light his lighter ten times in a row
at the cost of his little finger.

Bruce Holloway
....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

From: sfmag!mom@caip.rutgers.edu (M.Modig)
Subject: Re: Companions of Dr. Who written out.
Date: 17 Mar 86 17:30:46 GMT

> Because K9 had such a large following, the BBC started a Dr.Who
> spin-off which starred K9 and Elisabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane Smith
> called "K9 and Company."  This show didn't have quite the
> following that the BBC hoped it would.  This show only lasted one
> season in England.  I've seen one episode of it and it didn't seem
> to have the "pizazz" (sp) that Dr.Who had.  K9 and Sarah Jane
> didn't seem to mix too well.  That's my opinion.  I would like to
> hear others.

Actually, there was only the one show, the pilot, which has been
repeated once in Britain since the first showing.  It was never
picked up for a seasonal run.  It is interesting to note that the
first showing of the pilot was marred by a transmitter failure which
cut down on the audience.

The show itself suffers from poor writing (characterisation is fine,
but the motivation behind some of the actions is poor) and the pace
is far too slow to hold interest.  The plot is also lacking in
originality, especially if you are a "Who" fan.

Mark Modig
ihnp4!sfmag!mom

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Harper's Article on SF
Date: 17 Mar 86 19:21:43 GMT

Pardon moi, I read SF&F because I enjoy it. And the author evidently
never read anything by Philip Jose Farmer or Philip K. Dick, or even
Roger Zelazny.

Bruce Holloway
....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Mar 86 2153-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 21 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:

          Books - Card & Clarke & Dick & Friesner & King &
                  Norton & Story Request & Sime/Gen (2 msgs) &
                  Least Favorite Books & Psychosis Carsoma &
                  Bad Books & Merchant Books,
          Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide,
          Television - More things to do with your TV,
          Miscellaneous - Conventions & SF-LOVERS for Hugo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 19 Mar 86 15:33:10-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #40

>I would recommend anything by Orson Scott Card.  He has mainly been
>published in short story form but has a few very good novels out.

I wouldn't recommend everything by Card, not as Great Literature
anyways.  I thought that _Planet_Of_Treason_ or _Traitors_ or
(something like that -- I seem to have forgotten the name on
purpose) was an utterly trashy space opera in soft sf style, without
any significant characters or plot interest.  That opinion is false;
it was better than most soft sf opera.  Still, it had a very strong
flavor of "Main character gets trashed by insidious evil invaders.
Main character gets powerful.  Main character trashes insidious evil
invaders.  End of story".

Unaccompanied Sonata, among others, was on the same general level as
Gene Wolfe. Hart's Hope was pretty close, too.  I wasn't all that
impressed with Ender's Game (esp the novel) as literature, but it
was quite interesting and a good read.

But please, let's not reopen last year's flame-wars about the
relative values of Literature and the Good Read.

Bard the Anthro Gargoyle

------------------------------

From: alberta!luca@caip.rutgers.edu (Luca Vanzella)
Subject: a new A.C. Clarke novel?
Date: 18 Mar 86 23:55:26 GMT

Quite a while ago I read (I think in "The Odyssey File - 2010" by
Hyams and Clarke) that Arthur C. Clarke was working on a new novel,
tentatively called "Songs From Distant Earth".  Does any one on the
net know about this book?  Any tidbits, rumors, or whatever are
appreciated.  Please e-mail.

Thanks.
Luca Vanzella (...!ihnp4!alberta!luca)

------------------------------

Subject: PKD
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 15:16:18 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>

Yes, Philip K. Dick is probably still writing, but he's out of
transmission range (as Ted Sturgeon would have said (also still
writing...)).

But there has been a big boom in PKD publishing since his death.
Early in his career he wrote a number of mainstream novels and a
handful or so of them have been published.  RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH(??),
an early version of what became VALIS, has also been published.

There is apparently a complete "Short Stories of PKD" in the works.
Most of his short fiction was written early in his career.  It would
be great to see it assembled in one volume.

                                        Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 11:26:18 est
From: Carol Morrison <carol@cipg.mit.edu>
Subject: Review of Harlot's Ruse by Esther M. Friesner

Somebody suggested more discussion of fantasy on the net, and I'm
using that as an excuse.  Harlot's Ruse is Esther Friesner's second
novel.  I haven't read the first.  I also don't read much fantasy,
but received this book as a gift (from Esther Friesner).  This fact
probably biases my opinion.

I thought it was a very funny book, and recommend it for a fast,
light read.  I suspect that it pokes fun at a lot of hackneyed
fantasy conventions that I'm unaware of.  It's definitely from the
female point of view; women will identify, men will gain insight
(maybe), though I wouldn't call it feminist.  Esther has a real way
with words, including but not confined to awful puns.  The plot is
perhaps overly frenetic.  As my husband said, "One damned thing
after another": I was feeling somewhat exhausted vicariously by the
end.  However, the story is gleefully wicked, irreverent, naughty,
and sweet - just what you'd expect of a first-rate harlot.

------------------------------

From: hropus!jbs@caip.rutgers.edu (John B. SKiendziel)
Subject: WANTED:THE DARK TOWER BOOK
Date: 20 Mar 86 14:04:21 GMT

WANTED:
                 "THE DARK TOWER : THE GUNSLINGER"
                        by Stephen King 1982

Anyone willing to SELL their copy or knows anyone PLEASE give me a
call at (201)-949-9766 or send me email with a price and a phone
number where I could reach you.

Email address :
ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jbs

Thanks,
John B. Skiendziel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 16:28 CST
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Norton book list

Catseye, Night of Masks, Judgement on Janus, and Victory on Janus
are related in a way not made clear in your booklist.  The initial
setting of the first three books is in the Dipple, a slum on a
planet whose name I can't recall.  In one of the books the author
says something like, "There are only three ways out of the Dipple:
finding a real job, getting in with organized crime, or shipping out
as a colonist." The first three books show the three different
alternatives, and should have some appropriate linkage shown in the
book list.  There may be some other linkages in terms of what is in
which "universe," but it has been too long since I have read them
for me to recall.

David S.  Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics), a Norton fan from 'way back.

------------------------------

From: genie!sonja@caip.rutgers.edu (Sonja Bock)
Subject: Looking for SF short story
Date: 18 Mar 86 02:04:38 GMT

Several years ago I read a short story in an anthology which I have
lost.  I don't remember the name of the anthology, am not sure about
the name of the story itself, and don't recall the name of the
author although I have the vague recollection that it was a feminine
name.

The anthology was of first-published stories which won prizes or
something like that, and I believe the name was "The Kingmaker".

It is a time-travel story with two main characters, a famous
politician and an historian from his future.

The historian is from 500 years in the future, a graduate student
who has obtained a grant to study the life and times of the
politician.

He makes several trips into the past during his life-long study,
each time the technology available allows him to go farther into the
past.

Therefore, the two protagonists pass each other.  The first time the
historian sees the politician, the politician is an elder statesman
and the historian is a jerky grad student.

The first time the politician sees the historian, the historian is
an elder statesman-type and the politician is a jerky teenager.

The story was very well put together and I think would make a good
Twilight Zone or Amazing Stories or even SF feature.

Hope someone can identify at least the author so I can track down a
copy.

Thanks.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #46
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 23:02:07 -0500
From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

        There is a small but enthusiastic Sime/Gen Householding
centering here at the MIT Science Fiction Society.  At the moment we
have 12 members, including Channels (junct and disjunct), Rensimes,
Companions and ordinary Gens.  (I'm a 2nd order Companion, Jenniver
ambrov Mitar.)  We don't have regular meetings, but we meet at
conventions a great deal.  We had a private party with J.
Lichtenberg at Boskone and she did some workshopping with us; all in
all, a lot of fun.  If anyone is interested in more info, post a
request and I'll post our Sosectu's name and address.  We do have a
small newsletter.

Jenniver ambrov Mitar

------------------------------

From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf)
Subject: Re: Where are the Sime Fans
Date: 18 Mar 86 11:09:42 GMT

It is damn hard to be a Sime/Gen fan, if you can't find the books.
So far, I have only found three, two of which only because a friend
loaned them to me.

cory

------------------------------

From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley)
Subject: Least Favourite SF Books
Date: 17 Mar 86 17:54:40 GMT

Bruce Wampler's survey prompts me to add four more questions.
*Mail* responses, I'll summarize.  Multiple answers OK.

1.  Most overrated book.  What's the worst SF book you've read that
lots of other people thought was great?  Even that won a
Nebula/Hugo?

        My answer:  Clarke's _Childhood's_End_.

2.  Most underrated book.  Ditto, but this time something you liked
that nobody else seemed to care for much.

        My answer:  Clarke's _A_Fall_of_Moondust_.

3.  Worst writer that manages to stay fairly popular in the field.
You know, that guy that has a great following but you can't choke
him down?

        My answer:  E. R. Burroughs.  Hands down.

4.  Book you're most ashamed to admit you like.  (Answers anonymous
of course.)

        My answer:  Uh, I can't tell.  I really can't.

Peace and Good!,
Fr. John Woolley

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 11:35 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: SF-Lovers (Digest)V11 #38: "Possibly a first for sf-lovers"

Just got #38, #39 and #40 all in a heap.  In #38 was a short sf
story entitled "Psychosis Carsoma".  Interesting, if slightly --
well -- BIZARRE.  (To the author:) I took it from your post-cut
message that you write short stories often.  Are these mostly in an
sf vein?  I'm a sort of mediocre writer, mostly spontaneous fiction
(i.e. sit down at the wordprocessor after getting an idea, start
typing, fix spelling mistakes, print out, read and throw away)
related to sf and fantasy.

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET>

------------------------------

From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray)
Subject: Re: bad bad books
Date: 19 Mar 86 21:16:26 GMT

grady@cad.UUCP (Steven Grady) writes:
> In a Spider Robnson book I was reading a few weeks ago, he says in
> the introduction that one author made a bet about writing as bad a
> book as possible, and the public loved it. He continued these
> things, and the books are very successful.  Have people heard this
> rumor?  My first thought is that it would be John Norman's _Gor_
> books..

Nope, it was none other than Mr. Edgar Rice Burroughs _Tarzan . . .
_ (you fill in the blanks) books.  Amazingly enough, these popular
novels were started over a conversation of how much the public would
take on a logical extension of Kipling's _The Jungle Book_.

Now, don't all you vine-swingers feel silly?

Randy Murray

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 86 19:48:00 est
From: UFFNER <tom%vax1.acs.udel.edu@Louie.UDEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Merchant Book Request

At the risk of being painfully obvious, how about the Chanur books
by C. J. Cherryh. Or _Downbelow_Station_ & _Merchanters_Luck_. There
are also 25+ free trader novels by Andre Norton, a few by Larry
Niven and at least one by RA Heinlein. (But of course you already
know this since this is where much material for Traveller is drawn
from.

Tom Uffner

------------------------------

Date: 20-Mar-1986 1425
From: francini%ditto.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Recordings...

For those who are interested, I have a copy of the complete set of
12 episodes of the infamous radio series.  The person(s) who have
been hunting for a copy can send mail to me directly. (I am not
exactly sure of the ARPAnet routing, but I will include the Usenet
routing if it will help.)

The radio series was in my opinion far better than the records, or
the TV series, or the books.

[By the way, the complete scripts for the RADIO series are now
published in a book which I have seen in book stores both here in
the Boston area and in London - "The Original HITCHHIKER Radio
Scripts", with an introduction by Paddy Kingsland, plus another
introduction by Douglas Adams largely contradicting the one by Paddy
Kingsland.  It is a most entertaining book, as it contains lots of
stuff that never made it into the broadcast series (for reasons of
time, mostly), plus it includes many interesting comments and
footnotes concerning the actions that transpired during the creation
of the series [like Adams' reasoning behind the Sperm Whale bit].
It is in large-format softcover.

Share and enjoy!

John J. Francini
USENET:  ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-ditto!francini

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 86 12:36:07 EST
From: Bruce Nevin <bnevin@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: More things to do with your TV

The following appeared in the editorial section of the Gloucester
[Massachusetts] Daily Times for Tuesday, March 4:


YOU CAN ACT TO SAVE YOUR PLANET

If you're young, old, rich or poor you can act to help save your
planet, whatever your political views are.

Your television set gives you the chance to secretly send
synchronized thought waves to the face that you see on the screen.
Stare into the man's eyes without hearing and with all your
willpower repeat the words "peace, no bombs" for instance.

Television viewers all around the world have the power to influence
the mind of the man that they see on the screen.  Do it during his
entire appearance knowing others who read this do the same and that
a concerned minority has power.

I ask you to print this letter to protect our children.

H. G. Wakelam
Yacht Operculum
Box 91, P, Tahiti
French Polynesia

The audience for this is obviously self-selecting.  I can imagine
responses of two kinds:

     o The guy's obviously a wacko.  Probably thinks Venusians are
tuning in through his sideburns.  Of course no such influence is
possible.  (I wonder how the lucky S.O.B. got to be in Tahiti to be
crazy . . .)

     o Yeah, she's got something there . . . I know about the
hundredth monkey and the Sheldrake experiments, anything's possible,
I'll try it.

Either way, I thought you'd enjoy it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 23:37:35 PST
From: pnet01!victoro <Victor.O'Rear@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu>

For listings of conventions occuring near the San Diego area check
out the (revamped!) newsletter of STAR-San Diego (Trying hard to be
San Diego's Science Fiction Society).  'Interphase' is published
monthly for $5/year (well, you know what I mean...) by STAR-San
Diego, PO Box 15373, San Diego, Ca 92115.

Sorry about the personal reply to the digest, but I could not decode
your address.

The other SF conventions that will be in San Diego are:
April - Traveling edition of Creation Con
July - Westercon 39 (Full posting forthcomming)
August - San Diego Comic Con (But we're taking over)

March - ConQuistador (now up to IV!)

[That is all]
Victor O'Rear {sdcsvax,noscvax,ihnp4}!crash!victoro

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS for Hugo
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 11:26:56 PST

   Best Professional Editor for Saul Jaffe is, I think, a stunningly
bad idea.  It would alienate the rest of the SF community just as
would all the Scientologists banding together to nominate "The
Invaders' Plan" for Best Novel.

   However, I think Saul (and his predecessors!) deserve recognition
for editing one of the most original publishing concepts in fanzines
since the invention of the APA.  I would like to point out that the
public media never pay the slightest attention to the fannish
section of the Hugo awards, and only pay a moderate amount of
attention to the professional section.  Hence, a "Best Fanzine"
award to Saul would be just as appropriate as, say, "Best Fan
Writer" to the Leeper Consortium.

   I would like to point out here that, fans being fans, the rules
are not inflexible.  The Con Committee has the option of suspending
the rules if there is a strong reason; enough people nominating
SF-LOVERS might convince them, especially since the fact that "the
rules don't allow it" (why not, by the way?) is undoubtedly due to
the fact that the rules were written in ignorance of electronic
publishing.

   Failing that, there's the business meeting.  It shouldn't be all
that hard to propose a change in rules to allow for electronic
publications in the fanzine category.

Mike O'Brien
obrien@rand-unix.arpa
{sdcrdcf,decvax}!randvax!obrien

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 86 0908-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:

          Books - Brust & Hambly & Heinlein & McCaffrey &
                  Robinson & Wolfe & Favorite Books &
                  Brief Reviews & Merchant Books,
          Films - Highlander,
          Television - Alfred Hitchcock Presents (2 msgs) &
                  The Twilight Zone,
          Miscellaneous - Worldcon '86

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: uok!jibharjo@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Jhereg
Date: 17 Mar 86 22:39:00 GMT

Having read the novel 'Jhereg', and enjoyed it, I was left with a
certain emptiness.  Don't get me wrong.  I said I enjoyed the book.
The emptiness I felt was caused by not having read Stephen Brust
before.  In fact I had never heard of Brust before if I had not run
into a fellow SF buff in a B. Dalton bookstore.

I like the work of Brust and would appreaciate any information
anyone could supply concerning his past work and any upcoming
novels.  A sequel to Jhereg, perhaps...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 86 18:15:02 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Authors

The author of "the Dark series", namely _The Time of the Dark_, _The
Walls of Air-, and _The Armies of Daylight_, as well as _The Ladies
of Mandrigyn_ and _Dragonsbane_ (her latest and best to date), is
Barbara Hambly, a disgustingly good author.  I give all her books my
highest recommendation.  Get'em while they're hot!

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Mar 86 17:35:00-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>
Subject: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)

The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book...  Up until
about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the universe from
The Number Of The Beast.  Grrrr....  So if you're a diehard Heinlein
fanatic like me and want to read it ANYWAY, wait 'til it comes out
in paperback (I borrowed it and I am glad...)

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 86 10:39:51 est
From: rice@nrl-csr (Barbara E. Rice)
Subject: 2 More Mc Caffery Books

   Two more books belong in list recently posted of Anne McCaffery
books:

Killishandra (A sequel to Crystal Singer)
Merka(spelling?) (A spin off of Moreta)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Mar 86 17:31:05-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>
Subject: Night Of Power

I also really enjoyed Night Of Power, but I think it is appropriate
to warn potential readers that this novel takes place in the
grubbiest parts of Harlem, and the people there talk like they're
from the grubbiest parts of Harlem.  Also there are one or two death
scenes which are fairly gruesome.  They are not gratuitous
gruesomeness, but if you get easily grossed out or object to
swearing this is not the book for you.  (I had a nightmare about one
of the death scenes which was fairly disturbing.)

Judy.

------------------------------

From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 18 Mar 86 03:35:05 GMT

> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>>I've found that I really like Wolfe's short stories.  Shortly
>>after the BotNS came out, I picked up _Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_,
>>which I enjoyed immensely.  ...
>
> Then you should check out another collection of his stories, "The
> Island Of Dr. Death And Other Stories And Other Stories," in my
> opinion a collection that's superior to the "Book Of Days."
>                           Cheers, Bill Ingogly

Could someone please tell me how I can aquire these obscure books?
I am constantly reading about this or that book from Gene Wolfe and]
when I go around the local book stores in Indy they invariably don't
have anything but books that appeal to hormone-drenched teenagers
that thought the novelization of 'Star Wars' should have won a Hugo.

Is there a mailing list or catalog I can subscribe to?  Yes, I am
already a suscriber to the SF Book Club.  Passable at best.

Drop me a line, if you have any info!

Matt Verner                          UUCP:  ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner
AT&T Consumer Products Laboratories  AT&T:  (317) 845-3631
P. O. Box 1008
Indianapolis, IN  46206

------------------------------

From: atari!neil@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Harris)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 19 Mar 86 19:47:02 GMT

wampler@unmvax.UUCP (Bruce Wampler) writes:

> All Time Favorite: If you could pick just one, this is the "best"
>       SF novel you've ever read.

I can't pick just one.  But must mention the classics:
"Childhood's End" by Clarke, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by
Heinlein, "The Gods Themselves" by Asimov, "Dune" by Herbert.

> Favorite author:  Who is your favorite SF writer?

Philip K. Dick.  Runner-up -- Roger Zelazny.

> Hardest to put down:  There are some books that you just can't
>       put down until you're finished.  This might be called the
>       most exciting book you've read.

Believe it or not, "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard.  1000
pages of fun!  Also, Dune.

> Best with computers:  Well, most of us use computers, so this
>       one seems appropriate.

"True Names" by Vernor Vinge.  Distant second -- "When Harlie Was
One" by David Gerrold.

> Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but
>       has very unusual or interesting ideas.

"Inverted World" by Christopher Priest.  Strange & great.

> Best series:  The best series of books by same author (e.g. Dune,
>       Pern, etc.)

"Amber" by Zelazny.  No contest.

> Best written: Just good writing that would stand up to any classic
>       in any type of literature.

"Nova" by Samuel R. Delany.  IMHO, his best.

> Other books: Any other standouts you want to mention for whatever
> reason.

We did not mention fantasy yet -- so let's give credit to Michael
Moorcock, especially for "The Warhound and the World's Pain" and
"Gloriana".  Also to Tanith Lee, the BEST fantasy author today, for
"Death's Master", "Sabella", and many more -- she maintains a
standard of quality that is hard to believe for someone so prolific.

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Recent Reads
Date: 19 Mar 86 05:59:23 GMT

_Conscience Palace_ by (ur, I forget)

  This stunning view of a bleak future is one of the most powerful
  books I have read in some time. *This* is what makes science
  fiction so worthwhile - the ability to present an alternate
  reality that bears directly on the one we live in.  This is the
  rarest of fiction - a book of vision so strong that by the light
  of what we are not we see more clearly what we are.

  _Conscience Palace_ is a heart-rending argument against nuclear
  proliferation and the society that condones it.  And more, it is a
  love story.

  I daresay this will soon join my science fiction classics shelf,
  nestled alongside _Songmaster_ and _The Face in the Frost_.

_Magician: Apprentice_ by Raymond E. Feist

  The cover blurb compares this to Tolkien, and while I'm finding
  the book enjoyable, I think that is overly-high praise.  At any
  rate, comparing a new fantasy to Tolkien is like comparing a new
  singer to Dylan or Elvis - by-now meaningless industry hype.

  Still, there's nothing wrong with a well-crafted fantasy epic or
  two.  This book has all the proper elements in the right
  combinations: a young man coming to manhood, invading army of
  preposterous size, a fellowship and so on.  Say what you will
  about the _Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_ - I'll probably agree -
  but they were, at least for a while, a step away from the Tolkien
  mold.

  One thing annoys me about this book, and that is the scant
  characterization of Kulgan, the magician.  Nominally one of the
  more interesting characters, he's given little attention and
  remains a cut-out.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA  (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
FISHNET:  ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 1986 14:41:14-EST
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Interstellar Merchant Book Request Answer

> Can anybody suggest a novel or collection about life as a
> Interstellar Merchant?  I am a Traveller enthusiast and want to
> find ideas for a gaming session.

For a collection of stories, there is Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic
League series (_Trader_to_the_Stars_, _The_Trouble_Twisters_, etc.).
Heinlein's _Citizen_of_the_Galaxy_ has a section about a caste of
Interstellar Traders, at least one ship of whom speak Finnish as a
secret language (Was this ever developed or mentioned in any of his
other books?).  James Schmitz's _Witches_of_Karres_ has some
interesting scenes about a merchant ship captain.  The Okie Cities
in Blish's Cities in Flight series are interstellar merchants on a
grand scale.  You might also find some ideas in Chandler's Commander
Grimes series.  I have never played the game so I can't be sure how
useful these suggestions might be.

Harold Wyzansky  (wyzansky@nadc.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 86 13:09:40 PST (Sun)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Highlander

Movie review: Highlander

Nano-review: Good flick

Micro-review: Good fantasy story, plot structures centering about
Man-With- Unknown-Past, sword play, and a rock'n'roll sound track.
Sean Connery didn't get enough screen time.  Good acting all around,
with one of the best done film bad guys I've ever seen.  Darth Vader
ain't got nothin' on this guy.

Real-review (small spoiler warning):
        I don't have a newspaper in front of me, so I can't give you
all the names of the stars or director or like that, but I will tell
you about the movie.  It stars the same gent who played Tarzan in
Greystoke, with Sean Connery in a starring but secondary role.
        The movie begins with a sword duel in a New York parking
structure, a fight between two men, one of which is the star of this
film.  During the fight, and through the rest of the movie, we get
flash backs to Scotland in the 1500's, the place and time where our
star was apparently born.  His name is Collin MacCleod, and although
we don't initially find out how, he is immortal.  The flash backs
make up a story within the actually plot of the film, showing how
Sean Connery comes into MacCleod's life, and set up the conflict
between MacCleod and the Bad Guy.
        The plot of the film stems from the efforts of a police
criminologist trying to discover the whereabouts of the weapon that
MacCleod used to kill his oppenent in the parking structure, slice
up some concrete pillars, and in general wasted a few cars.  See,
from metal flakes she pulls out of the concrete pillars, she finds
that the sword is very very weird, and sets out to track down the
sword and it's owner; and so our story starts.  ( Cue love interest
between male and female leads. )
        This is definitely a fantasy story, although not enough so
that it detracts from the action and suspence of a tightly written
plot and some darn fine combat coreography.  The only serious
downpoint of the movie is that the majority of the sound track was
done by Queen.  For 95% of the film this is not something that gets
in the way of enjoying the film, and the point in the film where
Queen twisted the score of "New York, New York" almost makes up for
the noise of the opening credits.

        So go see it.  I'm curious what the rest of you think of
this one.

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards)
Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES
Date: 19 Mar 86 21:37:15 GMT

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>But I really liked that Alfy Hitchcock episode with John Huston
>where he bets this guy he can't light his lighter ten times in a
>row at the cost of his little finger.

I would have liked that episode (The Man From the South) better if I
hadn't seen the original several times and read the story several
more times.  What is the deal with the Hitchcock show, anyway?  Are
they re-making the same stories just so they can use the original
(colorized) introductions by Alf?  Why not just colorize the whole
show and replay it?  Then they wouldn't have to hire actors,
directors, etc.

As long as I have broached the subject of remakes; Why do producers
feel they have to remake a successful film every couple decades?
The copies always end up being compared to the original, usually
unfavorably.  I can't think of too many examples offhand, but one is
"A Star is Born".  How many times has that been done?  Three?  Then
there's "Frankenstein", "Dracula", etc., although I think most of
those used slightly different titles each time, so maybe they don't
count.

I can't believe that good plots are that scarce.

Let's see who can name the most remakes.  (same plot, exact same
title)

Dave Richards

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 86 18:05:00 PST
From: <good@acc.arpa>
Subject: Alfred Hitchcock Presents

from Bruce Holloway:
>But I really liked that Alfy Hitchcock episode with John Huston
>where he bets this guy he can't light his lighter ten times in a
>row at the cost of his little finger.

Why can't the Hollywood types find (and trust) some writers to come
up with original ideas? That plot ( I don't watch the new Alfy
series because of retreads like this) was one of the old B+W A.
Hitchcock Presents stories.

It starred Peter Lorre and, if my memory serves me well, somebody
named Steve McQueen.

Greg Goodknight <good@acc.arpa>

------------------------------

From: tektronix!larryk@caip.rutgers.edu (Larry Kohn)
Subject: Re: Looking for SF short story
Date: 20 Mar 86 20:35:42 GMT

    I don't recall a sf story like you describe, but will look
through my library to see if something turns up.  Interesting you
should mention Twilight Zone.  A few weeks ago I happened to catch
the end of an old Twilight Zone episode similar to the story line
you described.  This involved a great-great-etc. grandson of
President Kennedy.  This relative, a historian and time traveler,
got caught up in the tragedy of the assassination and somehow
managed to cause it not to happen.  Because a thing once done can't
be undone without repercussions, it turns out Kruschev gets killed
instead.  This isn't the end of it, however.  The change will
eventually lead to a major confrontation between the super powers
and an end to the world.  So the relative goes back to before the
assassination, meets with Kennedy, and explains it all to him.  It
ends with Kennedy going off to meet his destiny.

Larry Kohn

------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Mar 86 10:50:57-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: World-Con '86

The folks at Confederation are *very* screwed up with the mail.
They have lost my Writers' Workshop application, not sent me P.R.#3,
my wife has not received P.R.#2 or #3, screwed up my address, etc.

If you have not heard from them, you'd better write them now!
Progress Report #3 is out with the hotel selection form, which
should be returned ASAP if you want a choice.

Their (latest that I have) Address      Hotel Address
Confederation                             Confederation Housing
Suite 1986                                233 Peachtree St. NE
3277 Roswell Road                         Suite 2000
Atlanta, GA 30305                         Atlanta, GA 30043

The hotel info is long and complicated:
1) Which hotel do you want (Hilton or Marriot -- H. is better $ for
small rooms, but there are other factors like Art Show/Dealers Room
proximity)
2) Party or Quiet Blocking?
3) Handicapped Access needed?
4) Room size?
5) Arrival date and time?
6) Departure date and time?
7) Need guarantee for after 6 pm arrival?  (I included my credit
card # with this one -- you may not want to)

Good luck.  All of the above is simply as I or my wife has heard,
and I will not be responsible for anything that may go wrong.

Wang Zeep -- Badge #2226

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 86 0949-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #51
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:

              Books - Dick (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Lee &
                      O'Donnell & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Bad Books &
                      Sagamore's Curse,
              Television - The Twilight Zone & Dr. Who,
              Miscellaneous - Science Fiction & Harper's Article

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1986  09:36 EST
From: Rob MacLachlan <RAM@>
Subject: Radio Free Albemuth

    Radio Free Albemuth is a different book fom VALIS.  I think it
is set in a different universe as well, although I don't remember
VALIS well enough to be sure of that.  The main source of adversity
in RFA is an alternate Nixon who effectively takes over the U.S. in
the name of anti-communism, while being a closet communist himself.
RFA is definitely related to VALIS.  It has pink beams of light and
all that.

    I think that RFA is not outstanding for a Dick book, but it is
definitely worth reading.  Dick's later books such as VALIS and The
Divine Invasion are quite different from most of his other stuff;
people who have read some Dick and didn't like it should try VALIS.

Rob

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Is P. K. Dick among the living?
Date: 17 Mar 86 17:55:01 GMT

>>....  Philip Dick is also wonderful, but he's not writing much
>>these days....
>How do you know?  Just because he's not getting much published
>doesn't mean he's not writing (as I know to my regret.)  Maybe the
>mail service is not very efffective from where he is?

I happen to know that PKD is in Fort Morgan, Colorado.  And yes, the
mail service from that place is very bad.  Think it all goes through
Pueblo or something.

One good thing--PKD is in exactly the correct state to enjoy a place
like Fort Morgan.  If you've been there, you know what I mean.
(Although it does have the only McDonalds between Denver and McCook,
Nebraska.  I've been there often, and that's its high point.)

(Note to anyone out there from Ft. M--my home town is worse, so no
offense.  We don't even have any famous dead people in residence.)

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)
Date: 22 Mar 86 07:26:51 GMT

> From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>

> The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book...  Up
> until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the
> universe from The Number Of The Beast.  ...

I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did
anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending
actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the characters
from his other stories?

steve anich

------------------------------

From: atari!neil@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Harris)
Subject: Re: Highly Recommended!
Date: 22 Mar 86 02:10:22 GMT

eliovson@aecom2.UUCP writes:
>               Death's Master          by Tanith Lee
>       Allow me to recommend to all lovers of powerful narrative
> this fine book.  ...
>       Well, it certainly deserves some revisiting.  Why you ask?

Truly a great book.  But don't miss the first book (Night's Master),
the third one (Delusion's Master), and a promised fourth one.  Each
volume stands alone very well, and all are very worthwhile.  Tanith
Lee is the _best_ fantasy writer currently practising.  Her demons
are truly demonic.

------------------------------

From: reed!lauran@caip.rutgers.edu (Laura Nepveu)
Subject: Re: CAVERNS by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. (mild spoiler)
Date: 21 Mar 86 03:23:15 GMT

duane@anasazi.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes:
>The complete title of the book is "The Journeys of McGill Feighan
>Book I: Caverns".
>
>I give the book 3.0 stars (very good) and look forward to others in
>the series.

The others are out in paperback and are

The Journeys of McGill Feighan

Book II: Reefs
Book III: Lava
Book IV: Cliffs

I'm sure there will be more.  I also highly recommend these books (4
out of 4).  The main character is handled very well in that his
powers don't increase until he can conquer the universe single
handed.  The problems he faces he has to solve without the aid of
deus ex machina.  McGill's growing up and maturing are handled very
well.  The emotional problems he faces are dealt with realistically
and are often the center of the book.

McGill is loyal to his friends but not always vice versa.  I spent
alot of time in the first book wondering who would betray him next.

Another Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. Books I liked was _Oracle_.  A story
that has an excellent demonstration of the net when it becomes
omnipresent.  Good adventure too.

Has anyone read his other books? Any comments?

Laura Nepveu

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 22 Mar 1986 03:49:30-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: CASTLE OF THE OTTER

> From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
> I'm interested in obtaining Wolfe's "Castle of the Otter" at a
> reasonable price (i.e., not a collector's edition).  Does anyone
> know if it ever came out in paperback,

No, it hasn't.

> or was ever offered by the Science Fiction Book Club?  (If the
> latter, do you have the order number?  I wrote them about this,
> but received no response.)

Yes, it was offered by the SFBC, but I don't have the order number.

>  Finally, who put out the regular hardcover edition?

Mark Zeising, a dealer in Willimantic, Connecticut. It was a small
press, limited edition publication, since sold out. Zeising was also
the original publisher of two other Gene Wolfe books, THE WOLFE
ARCHIPELAGO and LIVE, FREE, LIVE.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun
Date: 19 Mar 86 03:45:00 GMT

Gene Wolfe himself will sell you signed editions by mail. An old
Science Fiction Chronicle laying around here lists his *Books of
Days* for $16 (hardback, first edition, signed) from Gene Wolfe, POB
69, Barrington, IL 60010. If you can find an issue of SFC or Locus
they have lots of advertising from mail-order firms.

Wombat
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: bad bad books
Date: 19 Mar 86 02:31:17 GMT

Actually, I think you are looking for too popular a series.  It was
discussed on a panel at a science fiction convention (gad, I forget
the detail who said it or at what convention).  I think it turned
out it was Prescot of Antares.  Not a giant series but one that
sticks around.  Supposedly it is written by a better known author
under the penname of Akers.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: reed!lauran@caip.rutgers.edu (Laura Nepveu)
Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (really _Sagamore's Curse_)
Date: 20 Mar 86 22:47:28 GMT

anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes:
>Roger Crew writes:
>>The young hero truds along to fullfill a prophecy in which he
>>becomes uncorruptable at its conclusion. (I did just read a novel
>>that threw these out -- it was called ** Sagamore's Curse ** ,but
>>it isn't the size of a multi-volumed story). I wish somebody would
>>write a good story that examened the various shades of gray.
>
> I also have trouble with these endings in which EVERYBODY gets
> MARRIED.
>
>steve anich
>anich@puff.UUCP

I recommend _Sagamore's Curse_.  It is definitely not the usual
prophecy story.  I wished it had fulfilled a bit more of the
potential it had for humor, but it was amusing enough as it was.

Perhaps one of the more practiced reviewers would review this book.

Laura Nepveu

------------------------------

From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke on TWILIGHT ZONE?
Date: 18 Mar 86 21:01:28 GMT

> I heard somewhere that TWILIGHT ZONE had done an adaptation of AC
> Clarke's "The Star".  Is it true?  Did they make the narrator a
> Jesuit priest, as in the story?  I'm wondering if it's worth
> waiting for the rerun.
>
>Mike Caplinger
>mike@bellcore.arpa
>ihnp4!bambi!mike

I saw "The Star" on TWILIGHT ZONE.  It was around Christmas. In the
opening credits it said an "adaptation of Arthur C. Clarke."  Well I
almost turned it off right then and there, but curiosity made me
want to see it.

I was afraid of what they would do.  I dearly loved the short story,
and didn't want to see the destruction television would do to it.  I
was pleasantly surprised.

As I recall in the short story, the Jesuit priest is recalling what
had just happened.  In the show it was done as it took place--no
flash backs.  Also the priest was not brought out as a Jesuit
priest.  They called him Father and I think it was mentioned once
that he was a Jesuit but not much more.  It showed, however, the
priest conflict about his faith, (ie, "How could God do this").

The ending was the only disappointment.  As I remember the story
left it with the priest wondering why the nova had happened.  The
show try to resolve this, and though I liked the solution, I didn't
want that kind of ending.  When I voiced my grievance to my friend,
she said "it's Christmas, you don't want a sad ending."

All in all, I have to say "The Star" is worth seeing.

jody

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 86 01:29:49 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Doctor Who's companions

acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
> Well, I don't know.  Personally, the chemistry between Sarah Jane
> Smith and The Doctor always convinced me that there was something
> else going on inside the TARDIS :-)

Well......what about the chemistry between The Doctor and Romana II
(Lalla Ward)?  That was very evident (and there was more to it than
just appearances, too!).  Romana II is my personal favorite, I guess
because the two actors got along so well---the interaction between
the characters was smooth, really excellent.  Of course, I haven't
seen all the companions; just all the recent ones (the earliest one
I have seen is Jo Grant).

As for Peri: from what I have seen of her I put her at the bottom of
the list.  From the very first episode she struck me as a sniveling,
whining, sassy, female.  So, you netters expressing similar feelings
(like "bowl of jello") aren't alone!  Every other companion I have
seen had some redeeming quality somewhere.  I haven't found Peri's
yet.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: It Came From Net.Space!!!
Date: 19 Mar 86 22:52:30 GMT

   Interesting stuff on net.space (key on Science Fiction):

jimb@ism780 writes:
>>    Speaking as one who has been reading sci-fi since starting on
>> Lucky Starr at a very tender age, I have to say that the vast
>> majority of sci-fi authors *do not* know what they are talking
>> about. The four authors quoted
[ME]

>There are all sorts of aims and intentions in writing SF; these
>vary with the author and with the individual work.  As a novice sf
>writer (two miniscule sales), I don't care about getting the
>science correct to N decimal places.

a    I think you are much better off worrying about plot,
acharacterization nd language.

>A sense of vision.  The *details* of colonies in space, alien
>contact, human/computer interfaces, -- your plot here --, may be
>incorrect at points, but the important aspect of sf *for me* is to
>present the broad brushstrokes of the implications of --- the plot
>of your choice ---.  To write hard sf, as

     YES! But remember, if your fiction claims to be especially
"scientific" and so immune to criticism just as fiction (which I
assume is the case with Forward, since he can't write) then be
prepared to have it judged as science!  I just recently mentioned
"The Protector" by Niven. Wonderful book, with nice hard-sf
relativistic space battles. But of course, the fundamental premise
does not make sense. So what? It's a lovely idea!

>so it can be done.  He's also one of the rare individuals that
>writes sf full So for many of us, scientific detail will not be
>completely accurate.  SO WHAT?  (Ah, to speak heresy on the net.)
>I don't think the purpose of SF is to give a scientific education.
>There are textbooks aplenty for that.

    Right, right, right. But if people say "X" knows his/her
science, and "X" doesn't seem to, I think it is appropriate to point
out that textbooks and scientists are a better place to find out
about science than fiction.

>Now I am NOT arguing for the Bradbury-esque anything-goes approach
>to sf, though that, too, has its place -- as fantasy.

    I agree, "hard"-sf even when not accurate in EVERY detail is
still enjoyable (at least by me). I don't enjoy having my own field
(mathematics, number theory in particular) treated as not even being
worth the trouble of researching to get it right by someone who is
passed off as ultra-hard sf (Forward, again). I wouldn't even care
about the same kind of dumbness from Bradbury.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 86 01:41:39 est
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: Harpers

I shan't attempt to argue with the author in detail, as that would
require re-reading the piece.  However, he seems wedged on at least
two major points.

First, he states that the promise of SF was to deal with the future
and the impossible.  Then, he criticizes the descriptive nature of
much SF.  He can have his cake or eat it, not both.  If the
environment isn't one that everyone lives in every day, and it
matters to the story at all, the differences must be mentioned
somewhere.  If jargon is used, and the differences are never really
described, then you encounter the same problem the author did with
the Delany book he complains about later.  If the environment
doesn't matter, only then are descriptions of any sort unnecessary,
and the book needn't have been written as SF anyway.

Second, the author seems not to have noticed that we are living in a
world where a man with the power to start a nuclear war makes jokes
about it as a warm up for a TV show.  A world where we haven't
learned to live close together, and the population is heading for 6
billion.  Now, admittedly, the Great American Novel as a genre seems
to be much more interested in angst and analysis than the condition
of people living even two miles away in the wrong direction, but
this doesn't excuse his pooh-poohing other's concerns.

Myself, I read SF as a window onto other's imaginations.  I
particularly like detailed, well-drawn aliens, with personality
patterns and motivations you've never seen in _People_.  I like to
consider possible planets, biologies, engineering projects. If I
ever get my own future history sketched to the point where I can
find a good short story in it, I may even try writing SF.  I have
never felt any interest in writing mainstream fiction, partly
because I don't want to cram my imagination into what I feel to be a
well-established, rigid set of molds.

The conventional fiction I read is either old (which gives me much
better insights into how things were when it was written than any
but the best history books), or somewhat strange in viewpoint (Tom
Robbins' _Jitterbug Perfume_ is the only non-SF fiction written this
decade that I'ver read so far this year).  I don't have much use for
the Great American Novel.  I am living it (or trying to avoid doing
so), and I can see others doing the same in real time whenever I
open my eyes.

jbvb@borax.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 86 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #52
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:

              Books - Bradley & Eddings & Saberhagen &
                      Vonnegut & Fantasy Author Recommentations &
                      Book Query,
              Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still,
              Miscellaneous - Worldcon '86

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gsg!kathy@caip.rutgers.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations
Date: 20 Mar 86 15:36:10 GMT

        There was a small note in Science Fiction Chronicle a couple
of months ago that Marion Zimmer Bradley had sold what I'm guessing
is a collection of Lythande stories (the tentative title given was
Lythande).  I don't recall the publisher off hand, but if anyone
wants to know send me mail and I can look it up.

Kathryn Smith
(...decvax!gsg!kathy)
General Systems Group, Inc.
Salem, NH

------------------------------

From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham)
Subject: The Belgariad (long, with spoilers)
Date: 20 Mar 86 03:43:31 GMT

My $.02 about the Belgariad: Enjoyable and entertaining at several
levels, but has some serious flaws one must be willing to overlook
in order to achieve maximum satisfaction.

Since the first article about this 5-book series appeared a couple
of weeks ago, I took the opportunity to re-read a few of the volumes
to see if I could glean more from them than I had the last time I
read them.  What motivated me was the line in the
'About the Author' section in each book that goes:

"...and he turned to the Belgariad in an effort to develop certain
technical and philosophical ideas concerning that genre."

So, what are these technical and philosophical ideas?  I have some
opinions, and I think that other sf-lovers have discovered most of
them, pointing them out either as strengths or flaws.

1.  The plot of the entire series is more or less transparent and
easy to discern just from reading the Prologue of the first book,
Pawn of Prophecy.  This is just the way most myth cycles and legends
are: everybody knows what is going to happen to whom when --
everybody knows Odin bites the big one at Ragnarok, Hercules walks
the dog Cerberus, Troy falls, Odysseus returns, etc.  Knowing the
ending doesn't necessarily spoil the fun.

2.  The Prophecy that guides the lives of the characters is known by
them but not understood.  Like the reader, the characters (at least
a few of them) know something about what is going to happen, but not
exactly, and are sometimes surprised by how the obvious actually
occurs.  That the story revolves around 2 competing Prophecies, both
equally valid until the final resolution, is interesting, but
Eddings doesn't do much with it besides tell us about it -- we never
get to see inside the Angarak's or Zedar's heads like we do Garion
and Ce'Nedra.

3.  Supernatural phenomenon practiced by humans comes in several
forms, different and not overlapping.  Magic in the books is
explored in some detail, with the most emphasis placed on 'sorcery'.
The practitioner simply wills things to happen and succeeds if his
will is strong enough, with certain conditions and limitations.  A
very interesting idea, and Eddings does a good job with Garion as he
comes to grips with his own power, but essentially he cops out
because he never explains how Garion manages to understand how to
turn dried grass and twigs into a flower, or separates mind from
body.  Belgarath and the other sorcerors had thousands of years of
study to figure out how things work and how to change things, but
Garion is just able to do it.  Karma I suppose.  Also, there are
some contradictory statements made.  Sorcerors aren't supposed to be
able to duplicate each other's more sophisticated efforts, or undo
what another has done, but this just doesn't seem right.  Surely
Belgarion could go back to Torak's digs and resurrect old Zedar if
he wanted to -- just dig up the earth and scrape until he found the
bugger.  Also, shape-shifting is pretty sophisticated, yet they all
can do it, and there is nothing to prevent sorcerors from taking any
form they wish. So why do they stick to owls and wolves when they
could be Eldraks and dragons when the chips are down?  Polgara is
discouraged from going after Asharak in owl shape because her
feathers were too soft for the stiff breeze.  Why didn't she take
off as a swift then and transmute to eagle once she got the drop on
the turkey, er, raven? Why?  Because the plot/Prophecy demanded that
Garion avenge himself on the hapless fellow a few pages later.  Weak
excuse.  Human flight is also not mentioned though it seems to me to
be an obvious application of translocation.

Witchcraft and 'magic' (demon summoning) are mentioned but are not
really important to the story as a whole.  Are there other types of
magic?  Why was it necessary to mention them at all?  Tolkien does
wonderfully keeping magic in the background and not introducing
characters that raise more questions then they answer, although
Eddings tries for a less epic and more earthy feeling for his world
and in this he succeeds.  Maybe characters such as Vordai and the
Morindim will play a greater part in future books set in the same
world.

4.  Each nation/people has characteristic traits, both physical and
cultural, that are often carried to stereotypical extremes.  The
characters manage to visit each country at least once and see how
the inhabitants of that country live.  Tolnedrans are lovers of
money, intrigue, order, and pleasure; Nyssans are reminiscent of
reptiles, etc.  I also noted that the geography of the Alorns and
West is somewhat like that of Europe, and that the nations that
occupy the various countries sometimes resemble their equivalent
European cultures.  For example:

Riva -- England/Scotland/Wales -- music loving, grey-clad, upright
and somewhat drab exteriors

Cherek -- Scandinavia -- vikings

Sendaria -- Low Countries -- mixed bag, very thrifty, practical,
sober, industrious.

Arendia -- France/Southern Germany -- romantic, chivalric virtues,
honor above all, civil wars.

Tolnedra -- Italy -- Intrigue, great noble houses, love of money,
commerce, pleasure.

Ulgoland -- Switzerland.  Withdrawn, pious, wealthy, mountainous.

Drasnia -- Finland/Latvian -- tricky, mercantile, secretive, either
small and skinny or prone to fatness.

Algaria -- Steppes -- horses, moving tribes.  Of course American
Indians might be a better fitting culture for these types.

Anyway, the rest of the countries don't fit so well, although one
can make some guesses about his inspiration for Mishrak ak Thull
(Poland/Balkans?), Gar og Nadrak (Ukraine?/French Canada/Alaska),
and Mallorea (China/Mongolia).  Cthol Murgos reminds me of the
Aztecs at their worst.  Nyissa and Maragor don't lend themselves to
this type of quantification, although an anthropologist or historian
might be able to point out some parallels with less well-known
cultures.

The king/ruler of each country somehow contains much of essence of
the entire nation in his person -- they are the archtypes of their
race.  The personalities of the main supporting characters too seem
to be almost completely determined by their particular race.

This is a problem I have with the entire series; he stereotypes his
supporting characters early, and doesn't have them grow nearly as
much as Garion does.  They tell the same jokes, say the same things
using exactly the same phrases in book 5 as they do in book 1.
Sometimes the humor in the books comes off well, and you laugh, but
when you read essentially the same lines 500 pages later, it isn't
so funny any more.

I feel the weakest character in the entire series is Polgara.
Eddings expects us to believe that she is a 4000+ year old virgin
with a very prudish attitude about sex and the proprieties.  Yet she
is called the Flower of Womanhood, with great knowledge of
medicines, herbs, cooking, and sewing.  I found her vanity and
narrow-mindedness unconvincing and unappealing.  Perhaps her
coldness is her defense against the millennia of death and
destruction she has witnessed.  Perhaps she was sexually frustrated
like no woman has ever been because of the Prophecy and she buried
her frustration by developing a contempt for men.

Belgarath comes off very well for what he is, the Eternal Man,
implacably working toward a goal only he and others like him can
understand, letting nothing stand in his way, but capable of human
feelings and emotions that he isn't afraid to show when it suits
him.  He is warm and good-hearted while Polgara comes off as
waspish.

Garion is by far the best character.  I really enjoyed his struggles
to grow up amid terrible danger with terrible powers that frightened
him more than anything else.  Ce'Nedra was well done too, but less
sympathetic and she didn't seem to grow and change as much as
Garion.

Well, I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop now.  I do recommend these
books -- they are some of a very few books I've read many times;
basically because Garion is a good, fully developed character and
the shortcomings of the other characters are hid by the fast action
and strange happenings that keep you guessing even though you know
how its all going to turn out.  I have some ideas about the next
series, if any.  Clues seem to be scattered about all 5 books --
Errand, the colt, the twins, the child of Relg and Taiba (the new
Gorim of course), perhaps fenlings...  It would be too much to hope
for all the books to be published at once, so I'm prepared to endure
months of waiting between books.  Hope you are too.

b2@bellcore   ihnp4!bellcore!b2

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE FRANKENSTEIN PAPERS by Fred Saberhagen
Date: 19 Mar 86 17:21:45 GMT

             THE FRANKENSTEIN PAPERS by Fred Saberhagen
                         Baen, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Saberhagen did such a wonderful job with his "Dracula" series
(THE HOLMES-DRACULA FILE, AN OLD FRIEND OF THE FAMILY, THORN, and
DOMINION, as well as THE DRACULA TAPE) that I was eagerly looking
forward to this novel.  What a disappointment!

     Told in the dual first-person (half by Benjamin Franklin's son,
half by the monster), it suffers from the division of point-of-view.
Had the monster told the entire tale it might have been better.  The
addition of Franklin seems to be more so that famous personages can
be discussed than for any real dramatic reason.  And the denouement
is both predictable and disappointing.  Read Saberhagen's "Dracula"
books, but skip this one.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: GALAPAGOS by Kurt Vonnegut
Date: 19 Mar 86 17:20:04 GMT

                     GALAPAGOS by Kurt Vonnegut
                       Delacorte Press, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I really enjoyed this book.  The fact that I read it in the
Galapagos has nothing to do with it. :-)

     GALAPAGOS is the story of the "beginning of the human race" in
1986, told a million years in the future by a ghost who has seen it
all.  It starts in Guayaquil, Ecuador's major port and largest city.
The BAHIA DE DARWIN is about to set sail on "The Nature Cruise of
the Century" to the Galapagos Islands.  Originally scheduled to
carry the great (or at least the famous) personages of our time, it
has been reduced by financial crisis, economic collapse, and threats
of war to carrying ten passengers and a captain to fulfill their
destiny as the ancestors of the "human race."  The "human race" in
this book is a race of fur-covered seal-like descendants of what we
think of as the human race (which the narrator refers to as the
"big-brains").

     The picture of Guayaquil gradually sinking into chaos as the
world situation degenerates is well drawn.  Vonnegut has traveled to
Guayaquil and the Galapagos and it shows.  (One minor quibble--the
Galapagos has no vampire finches such as he describes.  On islands
populated mostly by birds and reptiles, what would they feed off?
Vonnegut is certainly allowed this literary license; I just feel
obliged to point out that it IS literary license.)

     Anyway, our cast of characters includes a drunken captain, a
middle- aged widow, a slick con artist, a Japanese couple, a
millionaire, his daughter and her seeing-eye dog, and six Kanka-Bono
girls who speak no English or Spanish.  How they come together and
how they produce "the human race" is reminiscent of Stapledon's LAST
AND FIRST MEN, though considerably shorter.  (I realize I have
listed more than the ten passengers I mentioned earlier.  They don't
all make it to the ship; Vonnegut tells you this from the start.)
The device of the first-person ghostly narrator has an interesting
effect in that, although the attitude of the narrator is clear,
Vonnegut's opinions are not so clear.  Does he believe (as the
narrator does) that the "big-brains" were stupid and useless and an
evolutionary dead-end?  Or does he have the narrator present these
ideas in such a manner that the reader is supposed to see how wrong
they are?  How you interpret GALAPAGOS will depend in large part on
how you perceive mankind, technology, and progress.  Read it and
decide for yourself.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations
Date: 19 Mar 86 03:40:00 GMT

If you like dark fantasy, hunt around for John Collier (*Fancies and
Goodnights* and *The Best of John Collier* are two good short story
collections). For science and dark fantasy, try vintage Ray
Bradbury. For just plain weird, read some R.A. Lafferty (start with
short stories, the novels aren't for the uninitiated). And a strong
recommendation for John Crowley's *Little, Big*.

Wombat
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: oucs!joe@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph Judge)
Subject: Query for netlanders!?
Date: 19 Mar 86 16:58:10 GMT

        Remember the original Thieves World books (before the
Beysibs)??  Ever read Robt. Lynn Asprin's Myth series books ????

Well those are the books that I just couldn't stop reading - until
they ran out.

Any suggestions of other books (or short stories (I like them,too))
that are along the genre that I could read ????

Thanks,
Joseph Judge
ihnp4!{amc1,cbdkc1,cbosgd,cuuxb,}!oucs!joe

------------------------------

From: mmm!mrgofor@caip.rutgers.edu (MKR)
Subject: Klaatu Barada Nicotine
Date: 17 Mar 86 19:32:54 GMT

        I just watched "The Day the Earth Stood Still" last night
for the first time in a long while. There was one scene in it that
was unbelievably funny, although I don't think they meant it. It
went something like this:

   Klaatu, the man from outer space, was shot and wounded and was
   brought to Walter Reed Hospital. He's in a hospital room, and in
   the outer room, two doctors are discussing this strange being:

   Doctor 1: "His body is human, just like ours."
   Doctor 2: "Except that he's 78 years old, and he doesn't look
             more than about thirty."
   Doctor 1: "They have a much longer lifespan than we do. Why?"
   Doctor 2: (taking out a pack of cigarettes and offering one to
             the other doc) "Their medicine must be much more
             advanced than ours."
   Doctor 1: (taking one of the cigarettes) "Yeah."

        Okay, that's not verbatim, but rent the videotape and watch
it - it's a pretty good movie anyway.

MKR

------------------------------

From: mcnc!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland)
Subject: Re: Rooms at Worldcon
Date: 21 Mar 86 16:56:06 GMT

I can't find a reply to this question, so:

Hotel reservation forms for ConFederation were sent in PR3, which
arrived on our doorstep the second week in March.  Rates are:
                        single  double  triple  quad
        Hilton:         $59     $69     $79     $89
        Marriot:        $76     $76     $76     $76
Apparently the hotels *cannot* make reservations for the convention
themselves; reservations must be made through the Atlanta Convention
and Visitors Bureau at 233 Peachtree St, Suite 2000, Atlanta GA
30043

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 86 0923-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 25 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bear & Bulmer & Card & DeChancie &
                     Heinlein & Tolkien & Williamson &
                     Merchant Books & Favorite Books (2 msgs) &
                     SF's Old Guard,
             Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still,
             Television - SF TV Shows,
             Miscellaneous - A Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU
Subject: "Blood Music" mini-review
Date: 21 Mar 86 09:38:08 GMT

    I just finished "Blood Music" by Greg Bear, in the Ace paperback
version which has just come out. It has my warm indorsement. The
cover compares it to "Childhood's End", which is apt in some ways;
other possible comparisons would be to "Clay's Ark" and to (in a few
scenes) "Solaris". It is well written, has interesting ideas, and
looks to me a likely candidate to garner some prize(s).

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: bad bad books
Date: 22 Mar 86 11:55:48 GMT

> From: mtgzz!leeper    (Mark Leeper)
> Actually, I think you are looking for too popular a series.  It
> was discussed on a panel at a science fiction convention (gad, I
> forget the detail who said it or at what convention).  I think it
> turned out it was Prescot of Antares.  Not a giant series but one
> that sticks around.  Supposedly it is written by a better known
> author under the penname of Akers.

The author of the Dray Prescott series is Kenneth Bulmer. There is a
rather funny, apocryphal story concerning how he was "found out".
It seems that at some British sf convention, a well-known fan pissed
Bulmer off. A couple of Prescott books later, a character matching
the description of said fan was done in in a most brutal manner.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU
Subject: Ender's Game review
Date: 22 Mar 86 11:04:50 GMT

                            Ender's Game

    As a part of a revolting two-day orgy of SF reading, I have just
finished "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card. This is a definite step
or two up from "Hot Sleep".

    "Ender's Game" is a potpourri of SF cliches, but quite well
done.  It has the lone little genius against the world (or is he?)
of "Slan", the BEM's like those in "Starship Troopers", military
training scenes and space battles. But the writing is always
adequate and sometimes good (the computer-generated fantasies are
especially interesting). The tension level of overcoming conflict
and opposition is consistently high.

    One amusing feature is a plot to take over the world by two
teen-agers using the future's version of the USENET. Net.people
ought to read it for this alone, I guess. It has other nice things.
It has plot twists near the end. One I anticipated only by checking
the number of pages remaining, the other I couldn't get aside from
the fact that there had to be something.  If you liked "Starship
Troopers" or Timothy Zahn's "Cobra", you should like "Ender's Game".
I thought it was better than either.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

From: wcom!frodo@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: John DeChancie books
Date: 20 Mar 86 03:45:36 GMT

        Having read 'Star Rigger', and 'Red Limit Freeway' by John
De Chancie, both in 4 hours each of straight reading, I'm anxious to
see if another sequel comes out. The ending of R.L.F. leaves you
wanting more, and sets you up for another one...

        I checked the publishing dates, and Star Rigger was
published 12/83, Red Limit Freeway, 12/84, so I would expect the
next one 12/85.  Does anyone know if another in the series exists,
or whether/when one will?

Please respond via E-mail, as I don't always read this group.

Jim Scardelis, SA
{hjuxa,ihnp4}!wcom!frodo

------------------------------

From: bucsb!odin@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)
Date: 23 Mar 86 15:50:49 GMT

     I agree with the reviews of the two previous posters to this
net on The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, but as a friend of mine
noted to me, and I find myself agreeing with him, it seems that
Heinlein is heading towards some grand cosmic conclusion to his
whole Number of the Beast Universe.  I will wade through as many of
his books as I have to to get to it.  And no, there is no way that
Lazarus and bunch have gotten killed off.

Ben Page
CSNET:     odin%bucsb@bu-cs
ARPANET:   odin%bucsb%bu-cs@csnet-relay
UUCP:      ...harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!odin
BITNET:    odin%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells
Date: 23 Mar 86 00:49:52 GMT

Michael Krantz tries to defend Gene Wolfe by writing:
>Only Tolkien is comparable.  Only Lord of the Rings.

Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to
hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature?  Much as I
hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that The Lord of
the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in gods-know-how-many pages of
description, with an allegory so obvious Tolkien had to deny it in
the forward.  It's overwritten, overdecorated, and overrated.  So
there.

{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: WONDER'S CHILD by Jack Williamson
Date: 19 Mar 86 17:22:11 GMT

                 WONDER'S CHILD by Jack Williamson
                           Bluejay, 1984
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This rather quirky autobiography has a lot going for it.  For
one thing, it's unselfconscious; Williamson doesn't suffer from the
ego one sees in (for example) Asimov's IN MEMORY YET GREEN.  For
another, Williamson has led a long and interesting life, though his
experiences outside of science fiction are far more interesting than
those within it.  If Williamson seems to gloss over the specifics of
writing this story or that--well, how well could you describe events
and feelings after a gap of forty years or so?

     WONDER'S CHILD won the Hugo as Best Non-Fiction Book of 1984.
Some of that might have been due to an urge to honor someone who may
very well be science fiction's oldest living author (I can think of
no living science fiction author published before Williamson), but
don't let that put you off.  WONDER'S CHILD is well worth reading.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: uok!jibharjo@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted
Date: 18 Mar 86 21:33:00 GMT

I don't know if this will help you, but it just might.  I'm sure you
have heard of Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy.  Well, in the first
book, "Foundation", towards the end is a part called 'The Merchant
Princes'.  It is about Hober Mallow, a merchant.

This may or may not give you some ideas.  But it looks at the
attitude of merchants and what their about.

Jim Harjo
University of Oklahoma

------------------------------

From: smeagol!ross@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 21 Mar 86 19:43:42 GMT

wampler@unmvax.UUCP (Bruce Wampler) writes:
>       This has likely been done before, but not too recently,
> and probably not in exactly this way.  I'd like to see what
> people's favorite SF books are.  I know I can't give just one
> book, so I've come up with the following categorizations:

> All Time Favorite:
        Dune by Frank Herbert

> Favorite author:
        Larry Niven

> Hardest to put down:
        Orion by Ben Bova

> Best with computers:
        The Two Faces of Tomorrow by James Hogan
                This is the most credible science fiction story
        involving Artificial Intelligence that I have ever seen. The
        plot is a little simplistic but it is a good story
        nonetheless.

> Most interesting/unusual:
        Blood Music by Greg Bear
                About a genetic engineer who creates an intelligent
        one-cell organism.  I don't know about the validity of the
        biology in the story but I found the concept unique and
        interesting.

> Best series:
        The Foundation series by Asimov
        The Known Space Series by Larry Niven

> Best written:
        Dune by Frank Herbert

> Other books:
        Startide Rising by David Brin
        The Postman by David Brin

Gary Ross
JPL Spacecraft Data Systems group
sdcrdcf!smeagol!ross (UUCP)
ia-sun2!smeagol!ross@csvax.caltech.edu (ARPA)

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 23 Mar 86 07:28:36 GMT

> All Time Favorite:
        Lord of the Rings, by Tolkien. I always find time to reread
        it about once a year.

        Honorable mention: Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury;
        Dying Inside, by Silverbob.

> Favorite author:
        Spider Robinson

> Hardest to put down:
        In recent days, the Belgariad by Eddings (all five books )
        that got finished over a period of about 2.5 days including
        a three book stretch ending at 8AM.

        The only books that keep me reading late on a re-read,
        though, is LOTR, and Dying Inside another commentary on
        their quality.

> Best with computers:
        2001: a Space Oddysey, by A.C. Clarke

        Honorable mention: Star Fire, by Ingo Swann (good luck
        tracking THIS down, but a must read for ARPAnauts...)

> Most interesting/unusual:
        a VERY general topic, unfortunately.

        Most interesting people study: Dying Inside.

        Most unusual book I've ever read: Ubik, by PKD (even
        stranger because the strangeness fits)

> Best series:
        Series of Novels: LOTR, of course. Honorable mention to Gene
        Wolfe

        Series of stories: Callahan's Bar, by Spider Robinson
        Honorable mention: Martian Chronicles, by Bradbury.

> Best written:
        Book of the New Sun, by Gene Wolfe

        Honorable mentions: LOTR, by Tolkien; Martian Chronicles, by
        Bradbury.

> Other books:
        Oh, gack -- come see my library someday.... *grin*

Chuq Von Rospach
chuqi%plaid@sun.ARPA
FidoNet: 125/84
CompuServe: 73317,635
{decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: SF's Old Guard
Date: 22 Mar 86 13:38:43 GMT

> From: mtgzy!ecl       (Evelyn C. Leeper)
>      WONDER'S CHILD won the Hugo as Best Non-Fiction Book of 1984.
> Some of that might have been due to an urge to honor someone who
> may very well be science fiction's oldest living author (I can
> think of no living science fiction author published before
> Williamson)...

Certainly an interesting point to consider. I started wondering if
that was true, so I wrote up a list of other sf authors who I
thought might be in the running for that distinction. I then went
through Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE [VOLUME 2:
AUTHOR BIOGRAPHIES] (1979) looking for relevant data, also keeping
an eye out for other big names that I might have forgotten. Of
course, there are at least two variables to consider here: (1) Was
the author in question born before Williamson? and (2) Was the
author published before Williamson? There was another point to
consider as well: should I include those authors who, while having
published *some* sf/fantasy, are primarily mainstream authors (eg.
Isaac Bashevis Singer)? I decided no.
        Purists should note that I consider "sf" to include all
forms of fantastic literature. In any case, even where the authors
in question primarily write horror or supernatural fantasy, they
have written a goodly amount of "real" science fiction.
        My final list looked like this, ordered by birth date (I
list those born before 1910):

                          Birth Date    First SF Publication

 (1) E. Hoffmann Price    3 Jul 1898    1925  Jan (Weird Tales) *
 (2) Curt Siodmak        10 Aug 1902    1926  Jul (Amazing) **
 (3) Frank Belknap Long  27 Apr 1903    1924  Nov (Weird Tales)
 (4) Manly Wade Wellman  21 May 1903    1927  Nov (Weird Tales)
 (5) Clifford Simak       3 Aug 1904    1931  Dec (Wonder St.)
 (6) Robert A. Heinlein   7 Jul 1907    1939  Aug (Astounding)
 (7) L. Sprague de Camp  27 Nov 1907    1937  Sep (Astounding)
 (8) Jack Williamson     29 Apr 1908    1928  Dec (Amazing)
 (9) Carl Jacobi         10 Jul 1908    1932  Jan (Weird Tales)
(10) Neil R. Jones       29 May 1909    1930  Jan (Air Wonder)
(11) Fritz Leiber, Jr.   24 Dec 1910    1939  Aug (Unknown)

*  His actual first publication was in DROLL STORIES (5/24).

** This was a translation of a story previously published
    in German.

With the possible exception of Siodmak and Jones (they are retired
if not dead --- I cannot find death dates for any of them though),
all of the above are still alive and writing.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: sally!jcw@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Klaatu Barada Nicotine
Date: 21 Mar 86 23:48:53 GMT

>[Klaatu Barada Nicotine]

Well, I think they DID mean for that juxtaposition.  Movies from the
late Fifties and early Sixties were always trying to convey
messages, either obvious or not.  Longer life span/cigarette smoking
were contradictory.  Although no documented evidence was out on
smoking and cancer, many doctors suspected as much....

Anyway, yes! it's a classic!!!

See you at the movies,
Cary DiWhay

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others
Date: 21 Mar 86 18:06:37 GMT

Hi guys, I got a question for you.

Recently I got into a discussion with some friends about science
fiction TV shows.  We were comparing American shows with those from
other English speaking countries. I, of course, made some points
very well (strike that, very loudly and decidedly), and now I am
trying to get some facts to back them up.

What I need is a list of shows and a brief synopsis of each.  I
would prefer outlines of only the more obscure shows.  (I've seen
Star Trek and Doctor Who).  If you have any opinions on what made a
show particularly good or bad I'd really like to hear about that too
(this includes Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.), and, of course, any
feelings about the differences between products of various
countries.

Two of the less well known shows that we spent a good deal of time
talking about were UFO (anyone remember SHADO?), and Star Lost
(which I can only barely remember).

Also, no one else seems to have heard of Saphire and Steel,
(British, I believe.) I can't believe I made it up.  It starred
David McCallum (not sure of that spelling) from The Man From UNCLE
series.  Any info?

So, what I'd like from you guys are facts and opinions.  It doesn't
matter how obscure the show was, though I would like to know how
much of an audience it was available to, (was it nationwide or just
just available in northern Alaska, did it last one episode, half a
season, etc.?).

Thanks muchly,

P.S.  You can either mail responses to me, or if you're making a big
point and want to post it feel free.  I'll get it either way.

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: O. S. Card Works
Date: 21 Mar 86 12:56:06 GMT

To help with a parody play being done for Inconjunction VI this
year, we would appreciate a complete bibliography of Mr. Card's
works, and also some kind of list of the more well-known works of
the SF artist, Michael Whelan.  Both men are guests of honor at ICJ
VI, to be held the weekend of July 4, 1986, at the Adam's Mark
Hotel, Indianapolis, IN.  Registration details will be posted later.

arlan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 86 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #54
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 25 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:

            Books - Eddings & Herbert & Vance & Wolfe &
                    Favorite Books (2 msgs),
            Films - The Quiet Earth,
            Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide,
            Television - Videos of Old Shows,
            Miscellaneous - A Complaint & SFL T-shirts (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers)
Date: 21 Mar 86 18:28:39 GMT

One thing that I think was good about the book is the world/universe
that Eddings constructed. I'm getting tired of Tolkien clones. The
world of the Belgariad was refreshingly different. He even admits
that s-e-x exists. I'd recommend it as an enjoyable read, just don't
expect too much.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 24 Mar 1986 11:25:02-PST
From: binder%thehut.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Dum vivimus vivamus)
Subject: Heretics of Dune

_Heretics_of_Dune_ is indeed the fifth Dune book, and
_Chapterhouse_Dune_ is the sixth.  Both are too long to review
conveniently here, and I don't have them at hand.  As to whether
they're worth reading, it's up to the reader.  If you have read the
first four Dune books and LIKED them, then by all means the others
are worth it.  They do not complete the Dune saga; I understand that
Herbert was working on a seventh at the time of his death, and I
understand further that his son will finish it.  I hope so.  The
later books have a lot more psychological and behavioural study than
the first ones, and in general a lot less shoot-em-up action.  For
me, this aspect made them good, as I find Herbert's insight into
motivations fascinating.  The plot twists he uses in _Heretics_ and
_Chapterhouse_ are to my mind a little more plausible than some he
used earlier; note, though, that they do depend very heavily upon
your having suspended your disbelief so thoroughly as to have gotten
through the earlier books.

My recommendation is to take the hit on your social life.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)
UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }
       !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86 02:42:25 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: THE GREEN PEARL by Jack Vance

This book is the second in Vance's latest series, which started with
SULDRUN'S GARDEN, aka LYONESSE (retitled by whim of the publisher,
apparently).  The setting of the book might seem to put it firmly in
an established niche of popular fantasy, that of magical Arthurian
romances (MARs for short).  MARs typically pit a virtuous king
against an assortment of nasty wizards and witches, and they often
involve a long quest to rescue the king's love interest and
demonstrate his purity.  Enchanted swords and beautiful maidens
abound, not to mention dark castles and evil jewels.  I tend to pass
over MARs at the bookstore because they seem to me to be overly
conventional, like space operas or gothic romances.  It's a rare
book with MAR characteristics that grabs me, that forces me to read
it and enjoy it, and I'm happy to say that THE GREEN PEARL is one
such book.

The world of the Lyonesse books differs but little in outline from
the usual MAR pattern.  The time is just prior to that of Arthur in
Cornwall; a genealogical tree in the first volume conveniently
connects Arthur with the characters of the novels.  The Elder Isles
are a set of islands off the coast of Aquitaine which through some
act of magic no longer appear on the modern globe.  The Isles are
divided into petty kingdoms, each of which struggles to gain mastery
over the entire archipelago.  The population of the Isles is motley,
ranging from red-haired Celts to pre-Vikings, from fairies to trolls
and from itinerant magicians to vastly powerful wizards.

Despite this utterly conventional setting, the book succeeds because
its characters and their travails are different from those of the
run-of-the-mill MAR: they are distinctly Vancian, distinct in a way
that is hard to describe if you haven't already become familiar with
Vance's other works.  The characters eat, excrete and fornicate;
they often decide that discretion is the better part of valor; they
fall out of love as well as fall into it; they play complex
political games; they do any number of things that flout the
conventions of the MAR.  And the language!  Vance's style has always
seemed baroque and archaic, and fits into this mode with hardly a
change.

I had heard that Vance wanted a bestseller, and had perhaps
cynically chosen to write at a longer length and with a less
original setting then usual in hopes of attracting a larger
audience.  (A similar rumor was spread about Silverberg's LORD
VALENTINE'S CASTLE, which also seemed targeted as a bestseller; I
didn't like it nearly as much as his earlier work.) I think this
attitude shows in SULDRUN'S GARDEN, which could have been a better
book had it been trimmed to the same length as THE GREEN PEARL.  The
latter book seems much tighter and more fun, with adventure and
humor balanced to good effect.

If you like Vance, or if you like MARs, I think you'll enjoy THE
GREEN PEARL...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: "funny words" in NOBS
Date: 23 Mar 86 18:59:19 GMT

wood%hugo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>About 25 pages into the story -- when Severian is messing around in
>the graveyard there is a wonderfully picturesc sentence about the
>moon breaking out from behind the clouds and a shaft of light
>hitting the ground like and amschaftspand. (sp? I don't have my
>book to reference since I lent it out.)

The Shadow of the Torturer: Pg. 14

        He and the heavy man grunted as they pulled, and I saw
        something white appear at their feet. They bent to lift.  As
        though an amschaspand had touched them with his radiant
        wand, the fog swirled and parted to let a beam of green
        moonlight fall. They had the corpse of a woman.


The Castle of the Otter: Pg. 28

        Amschpand: Very roughly, a Zoroastrian archangel. There are
        six, and they attend upon Ahura Mazda, the good god.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 23 Mar 86 12:22:22 GMT

     I had a lot of trouble with this questionaire, because a lot of
my favorite stuff is on one borderline or another in the meanings of
"SF". Is SF science fiction, science fantasy too, speculative
fiction or what? Is it just the stuff which is usually called or
thought of as SF, or not? Well, I'll try.

>All Time Favorite: If you could pick just one, this is the "best"
>       SF novel you've ever read.

    Hard to say. Simon-pure "SF"? What about "A Canticle for
Liebowitz"?

>Favorite author:  Who is your favorite SF writer?

     H.G. Wells. I guess.

>Hardest to put down: There are some books that you just can't
>       put down until you're finished.  This might be called the
>       most exciting book you've read.

      "The Anubis Gates". (Is this "SF"? I really don't know).

>Best with computers:  Well, most of us use computers, so this
>       one seems appropriate.

    "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

>Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but
>       has very unusual or interesting ideas.

     "Solaris"

>Best series:  The best series of books by same author (e.g. Dune,
>       Pern, etc.)

     I've been holding off on C.S. Lewis, because I'm not sure his
stuff is "real" SF. But this just HAS to be his "space trilogy" of
"Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and "That Hideous
Strength".  These get progressively better, and less and less like
"SF".

>Best written: Just good writing that would stand up to any classic
>       in any type of literature.

    Any of the above, I guess. What about C.S. Lewis again?

>Other books: Any other standouts you want to mention for whatever
>      reason.

    "The Absolute at Large" by Karel Kapek -- funniest SF book.
(Also "The War with the Newts" is good). "A Case of Conscience" by
James Blish.  "The Left Hand of Darkness" by LeGuin. Is Nabokov's
"Ada" SF??? As a lot of people have been saying, Wolfe writes stuff
that makes you take notice.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 25 Mar 86 01:52:09 GMT

>> All Time Favorite:
  Gateway by Fred Pohl, except when it's The Lathe of Heaven by
LeGuin.

>> Favorite author:
  Dead heat between Silverberg and LeGuin

>> Hardest to put down:
  Anything I put down usually doesn't get finished.

>> Best with computers:
  Moon is a Harsh Mistress by R.A.H.

>> Most interesting/unusual:
  The Cyberiad by Stanslaw Lem (also the most amusing)

>> Best series:
  Series?  Almost without exception, every series I've ever read has
  one dud in it.  On this point, and since one can't count the LOTR
  in this category, the prize must go to the Earthsea books by
  LeGuin.

>> Best written:
  Lathe of Heaven and LOTR

>> Other books:
  Majipoor Chronicles by Silverberg
  Esbae by Linda Haldemann
  Star of the Sea by Linda Haldemann
  The Red Magician by Linda Goldstein
  Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis

(None great works, but all giving special delight to me)

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86  09:54:38 EST
From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: A Review: The Quiet Earth

    Some critics have called "The Quiet Earth" the best Sci-Fi movie
of the decade.  They are wrong.  It's pretty awful.

    The basic plot is that something has caused all animal life on
earth to vanish.  Only a select few people who are at the point of
death remain when this event occurs.  We meet what must be the only
three people left "down under", and find out that it might have been
caused by a power distribution network set up by the USA for use by
aircraft, or as is said in the movie, "Maybe God blinked.

    The characters are uninteristing, the special effects are dull,
and the plot has very little to say.  This movie has been getting
good reviews for two reasons that have little artistic bearing: 1)
It is "politically correct" (Not so mildly anti-American), and 2) It
is purposely obtuse.  The direction isn't very good either.

   I heartily recommend that everyone miss this movie unless they
are into being bored.  I'll leave you with one thing: The ending
seems to imply that it was God Blinking, and not the transmission
network that caused the event.

Matthew Saroff
Saroff%Umass.Bitnet@Wiscvm.Wisc.Edu

------------------------------

From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Date: 18 Mar 86 19:02:07 GMT

I would very much like to have an audio recording of *The
Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy*'s radio version off of the BBC,
CBC, or where-ever.  Original stereo would be nice, but not
essential.

Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86  15:21:46 EST
From: salamir%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Ask me about SalNet!)
Subject: Batman Tapes?

How does one go about purchasing old TV shows on videotape?  Or even
finding out if such are available?

I am primarily interested in Batman, but would also like to get "The
Prisoner", "Mr. Ed", and "My Favorite Martian"...

Just call me silly...
Ron Lussier
Salamir@UMass.Bitnet (See header for more details)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 86 10:42:34 EST (Monday)
From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun (Spoilers possible)
To: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu

"This was an outstandingly bad novel. ...every year or so the
Wulf[sic]-cultists must issue forth ... to demonstrate why there's
such a large ... market for so much bad SF."

And every year the people who didn't like the books come out and
insult those who do.  This happens with just about every author:
Wolfe, Moorcock, Heinlein & Laumer are the ones who come to mind as
recent examples.

It seems like every conversation on SFL degenerates to "I liked this
book." - "I didn't, so there." - "Oh, yeah? Well, I did." - "I
didn't, nyah nyah nyah." - "Did." - "Didn't" - "Did." - "Didn't" -
"DidDidDidDid." - "Didn'tDidn'tDidn'tDidn't"....  No participant in
this part of the conversation bothers to tell us WHY they did or
didn't like it.  It's as if their opinion was an invariable fact,
culmination of some mathematical proof (which is intuitively obvious
and left as an exercise to the student).

Without an explanation of why a book is so flawed or so wonderful or
so average, any messages such as the one quoted above are as
meaningful as "Reagan Sucks" graffiti.  Messages that simply parrot
an opinion stated in another have even less meaning [why do do you
agree?  Is it fashionable?  Do you feel guilty if you say no?  Are
your reasons similar, or was it for some other cause?].

Another thing to recall is that SFL (like most similar lists) can be
divided into two groups: The Permanents (people with a steady, long
term access, such as myself - I've been reading it for some years
now) and The Transients (people who may have access only briefly or
intermittently, such as students, part time employees, consultants,
etc).  What may be old hat to the Permanents could be brand new to
the Transients (witness the regular recurrence of discussions such
as Music in SF, Dune, Star Trek Inconsistencies, and the Book of the
New Sun) [there's thesis material for someone in here...].  It would
be nice if the Permanents could let the Transients have their say
without ridiculing them: "Oh THAT - that was said in V2#47.  It's
OLD stuff."  Surely you have occasionally said something that has
been said before - it would be nice if the Transients had the same
privilege.

It comes down to this: If you aren't willing to tell us why you feel
the way you do and you aren't willing to let others speak without
insulting them, then your message is only slightly more meaningful
than random bits.

Chris Heiny

PS This was not directed solely to the author of the message above
that message was simply a stellar example of the problem.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 86 08:05 CST
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS T-Shirts
To: ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA

The design for the SF-Lovers T-Shirts sounds great, but then I'm a
dyed-in-the-wool Heinlein fan (Not an apology, just an explanation).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 86 23:29:29 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: T shirts
To: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@CCA-UNIX.ARPA

>From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
>Date: Feburary 30, 2836  1224 EST
>From: Lazurus Long <SF-LOVERS-REQUESTS@EARTH.SOL.MILKYWAY>
>To: SF-LOVERS@EARTH.SOL.MILYWAY
>Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 1254, Number 54

  Sounds great!  Just three comments.

1) If that is AD 2836, the volume number should be 1711, if we
   continue to have two volumes per year.

2) In the calendar Lazarus Long uses, 2836 would be the year AD
   4972.  In that case, the volume number would be 5983.  This seems
   more likely since the galaxy is named in the header, but no
   colonies yet existed outside our galaxy in AD 2836.

3) There is no evidence that there will ever be a February 30th.  If
   we use a real date, we can put down the day of the week, for
   instance "Sat, February 29th 2836 (AD 4972)" then people could
   have lots of fun trying to figure out if that really is the
   correct day for that date.

...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Mar 86 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 27 Mar 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:

       Books - Brin & Heinlein & Henderson & Norton & Tolkien
               Typos in Books & Favorite Books (2 msgs) &
               Merchant Books (2 msgs) & Multiple Author Books &
               Finding Books & Sime/Gen,
       Magazines - Discussing Recent Stories,
       Television - Star Trek,
       Miscellaneous - Booklists & Long Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 1986 19:11-EST
From: David.Detlefs@G.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: David Brin

I have been confused for some years now by the high praise accorded
to David Brin's work.  I thought _Sundiver_ was good hard SF, with a
lot of original ideas, but not extremely interesting
characterization.  I looked forward to his next novel.  When I read
_Startide Rising_, however, I was extremely disappointed.  It, too,
had some interesting ideas, but the execution left me unimpressed.
Didn't anyone else find it a bit, well, "adolescent?"  (Obviously, a
lot of people didn't agree with me.)  Next I read _The_Practice_
Effect_, which I found as silly as Piers Anthony at his worst (which
to me is a strong condemnation.)

All of which left me unprepared for _The_Postman_.  I found it hard
to believe that the same author wrote the above books and this one.
For the first time, I think Brin has written an adult book, and a
serious one.  The first half of the book was so good that I was
physically excited as I was reading it, thinking I had a classic in
my hands.  The second half trailed off somewhat into more of a
straight adventure story, but the overall effect remained extremely
positive.  I haven't yet read _The Heart of The Comet_ (or whatever
the exact title is), but I hope it and future Brin work continue the
trend _The Postman_ started.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 1986 10:08-PST
Subject: Heinlein's Cat
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

I read "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls".  I have read better
Heinlein, i.e., "Friday".  I thought that the cat had the best part
in "TCWWTW".  Faye

------------------------------

From: mpm@hpfcms
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 22 Mar 86 08:06:00 GMT

     I've already mailed my completed survey to Bruce, but in the
process of filling it out I rediscovered one of my favorite books
(actually two of them).  They are Zenna Henderson's books about The
People - i.e. "No Different Flesh" and "Pilgrimage".  These are, in
my opinion, two works that deserve continuing discovery, from new
and old audiences alike.

     Is Zenna still writing?  Is there a possibility of another book
about The People?  (I know she's written one or two short stories
about them for Analog or some other S-F periodical.)  Her work is a
prime example of strong character development that seems common in
the S-F novels of women authors like Anne McCaffrey, Marion Zimmer
Bradley, Andre Norton, Leigh Brackett, Ursula K.  Le Guin, and C. J.
Cherryh).

     Among male S-F authors, I find that Robert Heinlein (the one
writing ten to fifteen years ago) has a similar talent for
characterization.  (Unfortunately his works of the past five years
do not appeal to me as does his earlier writing.  I like it, but I
like his "middle period" better.)

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 1986 07:03-PST
Subject: Re: Andre Norton books
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

I have read Andre Norton all my life and did my professional paper
for my Master of Library Science degree in 1966 on her.  To the best
of my knowledge Mary Norton, who wrote "The Borrowers series", is
not Andre Norton.  Of the other books on the list I did not
recognize "Caroline" or "Ten Mile Treasure".  Are these also by Mary
Norton or Andre Norton?  Faye

------------------------------

From: nessus@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells
Date: 25 Mar 86 11:17:11 GMT

showard@udenva.UUCP writes:
> Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to
> hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature?  Much as I
> hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that The Lord of
> the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in gods-know-how-many pages of
> description, with an all- egory so obvious Tolkien had to deny it
> in the forward.  It's overwritten, overdecorated, and overrated.

I certainly wouldn't want to hold up Tolkien as a paragon of
anything.  I thought "The Lord of the Rings" was one of the most
boring books I ever had the mispleasure to read, for precisely the
reasons you mention.  ("The Hobbit", however, I thought was quite
enchanting.) On the other hand, I believe "The Book of the New Sun"
to be one of the very finest books ever written for all the reason
already stated by others.

Doug Alan
Nessus@Eddie.MIT.EDU
{allegra,seismo,decvax!genrad}!mit-eddie!nessus
MIT, E40-358a, Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 253-0147

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 1986 08:47:32-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Typographical Errors

Has anyone else out there noticed an increased proliferation of
typographical errors in paperbacks?  I finally got around to reading
Chalker's _The Birth of Flux and Anchor_, and I was appalled at the
number of misspelled words, omitted words and phrases, and
duplicated lines.  While I can usually figure out what was supposed
to be printed, I find an overabundance of typos to be extremely
disconcerting - even in a three dollar paperback.  Don't publishers
know about electronic spelling checkers and such?

Brian Clapper

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 24 Mar 86 05:49:04 GMT

chuq@sun.uucp (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:

>> All Time Favorite:
>       Lord of the Rings, by Tolkien. I always find time to reread
>       it about once a year.

    This relates to a problem I mentioned when I did my choices --
what do people mean by "SF"? "The Lord of the Rings" is wonderful,
but to my mind neither a series nor, by any stretch of the
imagination, "SF".  If "The Lord of the Rings" is Chuq's all-time
favorite "SF", I think I will say "Paradise Lost" is mine, with
honorable mention to "The Tempest", and ... stop me before I say
more!

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 1986 08:52-PST
Subject: RE: Favorite SF books
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

Favorite author: Andre Norton
Hardest to put down: What ever I am reading at the moment
Best with computers: I take computers for granted so I don't notice
the inclusion of or lack of computers in a plot except for the sexy
computer on the Enterprise (egads, I have been working on this
computer too long when I call a computer sexy)
Most interesting/unusual: Will have to pass on this one.
Best series: Witch world
Best written: Will let the literary types fight this one out.
Other books/series: "Darkover" series, "Dorsai" series ...

Faye

------------------------------

From: watrose!mwnorman@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Norman)
Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted
Date: 23 Mar 86 18:48:46 GMT

Another "merchant"-type book that is worth checking out is
 _Waves_ by M.A. Foster.

This book deals with styles of multi-planetal (sic) corporations and
how they operate light-years away from i) their parent corporations,
and ii) away from any large regulating bodies!!  The culture that is
the background to this book is also very interesting, being drawn
from Eastern Europe rather than the usual North American.

Mike Norman
{allegra, your favourite back-bone site }!watmath!watrose!mwnorman

------------------------------

To: jamesp <orstcs!jamesp@caip.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Re: Merchant book wanted
Date: 24 Mar 86 22:00:29 PST (Mon)
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

The Mote in God's Eye, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, has an
interstellar trader/merchant as a major character.

Citizen of the Galaxy, by Robert Heinlein.

Trader to the Stars, by Poul Anderson.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 86 12:24 EST
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Multiple-author books

A previous message incorrectly described the provenance of the
satire "Naked Came The Stranger." This book was written by the staff
of a NY-area publication (I think Newsday), one episodic chapter per
person, glue provided by the commentary of a husband-and-wife talk
show team.  It was written in response to "The Voyeur," done
pseudonymously by (I think) George Plimpton in reponse to John
Updike's "Couples."

A more interesting example is "The Floating Admiral," by the
Detection Club (or some such) of London in the 1920's.  This was
written as a kind of game, in which each author had to write:

1.  A chapter advancing the story;

2.  An appendix (not available to the other authors) which gives the
premise of the chapter, i.e., whodunnit and why and how.  The
premise must integrate all the evidence presented in the previous
chapters.

It's not much of a novel, but it is fun to watch each author climb
out of the hole dug by his/her predecessor and dig a new one.  You
will never think of Agatha Christie as a prim lady after you have
read her chapter and underlying plot.

Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF?  A
sword-and-sorcery quest novel seems like a natural, wherein each
author would have to extricate the party from one fix and leave them
in another.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 25 Mar 86 21:09:03-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Finding Books

I am tired of individuals whimpering about not being able to find
science fiction and fantasy books.

Given the current state of the book business with the three major
chains dominating the distribution, all you can easily find is those
books that sell in the 100,000's in hardcover, and millions in
paperback.  And if the book is not sold out in a couple of months,
then it is returned (hardcover) or stripped and discarded
(paperback).  With the computerized inventory systems, the chains
know what is selling and what to get rid of.  So going to a chain is
futile unless the book is brand new and by someone famous.

How to find science fiction and fantasy books: You have to work at
it.

0. (Most Important)  subscribe to Locus.
     $24.00 for 12 issues (2nd class)    (other rates to non USA)
     $32.00 for 12 issues (1st class)
      PO Box 13305
      Oakland, CA  94661
This gives you monthly lists of books that just came out, ads and
announcements of future books, convention lists, Nominations and
Awards, annual recommended list, and classified ads for mailorder
books.  Secondary are the book reviews, convention reviews and
pictures, foreign reports, obituaries, etc.

1.  Move to a city that has a sf speciality bookstore.  :-)

2.  Go to conventions.  See 0 for list.  Confederation has sold out
244 tables and 12 booths.  Smaller conventions typically have a
couple of stores selling new books, more selling used books.  From
the Locus convention list, it seems that everyone lives within a
day's drive of some convention.  CA has scheduled for 86, Equicon
(LA), Baycon(San Jose), Costumcon(LA), Westercon(San Diego),
Loscon(LA).

3.  Write for some mail order catalogs.  Then buy from them to
continue getting them.  See 0 above.  March issue has 25 ads for
mail order books.

L. W. Curry, Inc.
Elizabethtown, New York  12932

is the largest seller of new and used SF and fantasy hardcover
books.  Catalogs, Advance orders, want lists.  Stocks most in print
hardcover, including speciality press titles.

The Science Fiction Shop
56 Eighth Ave
New York, New York  10014

frequent catalogs, new hardcover and paperback.  Vast stock of in
print books.

4.  Work out an arrangement.  This works well when you spend over
$100. a month on sf.  Find a small, friendly bookstore where the
owner runs the place.  Tell them that you like sf/fantasy but have
trouble finding it.  Typically, the store uses one or more national
book distributors that supply catalogs of forthcoming books and/or
microfiche inventories.  If you know what you want and know the ISBN
(from 0 or distributor's catalogs) the store can very likely get it
for you.  With the right relationship, you should be able to look at
the forthcoming catalogs and place your order ahead of time.  The
book distributors typically drop books when about a year old (unless
still popular).  A bookstore cannot order one paper back book direct
from the publisher.  However, if you can wait, your special orders
for older, in print paperbacks can augment the store's regular
(quarterly?) reorder to the paperback publishers.  Be nice, be
pleasant, be reliable about paying for your books.  DO NOT HASSLE
THE BOOKSELLER WHEN THE PUBLISHER SCREWS UP.

Do not believe ANYTHING that a publisher says about dates, prices,
cover, title, copyright date, newness, goodness, or even that the
book is really going to be published.  A bookseller gets the book
when the book gets to the store.  Not sooner.

5.  Used books.  See 0, 1, 2, 3 above.  Rare gems even appear in
Goodwill stores.

Randy   NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1986 15:02:09 EST
From: NEVNT%NERVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Vicki Turner)
Subject: Where are the Sime/Gen fans?

Hi. Just found out about SF-LOVERS, which is why I'm just now
responding.

YES! I'm a Sime/Gen fan! Here in Out-Territory with no one to have
transfer with. Would love to discourse with other Sime/Gen fans,
find out about newsletters, you name it.

(To the MIT group, how do you go about qualifying yourselves at
2nd-Order this-that-or-the-other? Just curious. Y'all have Simes up
there in MA?)

Thanks.
BITNET:   nevnt@nervm
INTERNET: nevnt%nervm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
ATT:      904-392-2061
USPS:     Vicki Turner
          NorthEast Regional Data Center
          107 SSRB
          Univ. of Florida
          Gainesville, FL 32611
UNIVERSE: nevnt@nervm.gainesville.FL.USA.NA.terra.sol.
          milkyway.local-group
ICBM:     029N 38  082W 20

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Magazine stories
Date: 26 Mar 86 02:46:25 GMT

A little while back someone asked about discussing stories from
current SF magazines (Analog, Asimov's, etc.).  Since I feel kind of
left out in the ongoing discussions of books I haven't read, I think
this would be a good idea.  I think that the Subject line should
include magazine and issue, as in "Subject: Quantum Cats (Feb
Analog)", so uninterested parties can easily skip them, and also to
serve as a possible spoiler warning.  I'd especially enjoy being
able to discuss the editorials without the 8-month time lag!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 86 15:17:23 -0500
From: The Krewz <krewson@huey.udel.EDU>
Subject: Yeoman

Who played STAR TREK's Yeoman Janice Rand?

------------------------------

From: muir@COGSCI.BERKELEY.EDU (David Muir Sharnoff)
Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #46
Date: 24 Mar 86 03:47:03 GMT

> From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
> Why are we getting all these complete booklists?  They're not
> terribly interesting (except to fans of the author, and not always
> then), and they're a real pain for those of us who get digests.

flame, flame, flame.  The booklists are *great*.  They are one of
the main reasons I subscibe to this newsgroup in the first place.
There are many, many things sent with higher noise ratios than the
booklists...  (think of how many NASA jokes went were resent in
net.jokes etc.)

I only wrote to encourage those who send booklists to send more...

Dave
Orgi:Institute of Cognitive Studies, University of California,
     Berkeley
Real-time: muir@cogsci.bereley.edu   or  muir@berkeley.edu
UUCP:      ...!ucbvax!muir

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Long Names
Date: 24 Mar 86 17:53:57 GMT

Which science fiction author has probably the longest name?

Answer:

John Wyndham Parkes Lucas Beynon Harris

that's who!

Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 86 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #56
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 31 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Card & Cherryh & Tolkien &
                         Sf Poll (2 msgs) & Recommendations &
                         Multiple Author Books (2 msgs),
                 Films - Highlander,
                 Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide,
                 Television - Star Trek & Favorite Shows &
                         Saphire and Steel,
                 Miscellaneous - Spoilers & Hugos & Conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: calma!pincus@caip.rutgers.edu (Jon Pincus)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game review
Date: 27 Mar 86 17:14:13 GMT

I should point out that Ender's game is based on a novelette or
short story whose name I naturally forget.  I liked the shorter
version better, and I don't think it was just because I knew how the
novel would end; it seemed to me that a lot of the novel was filler.

jon
ucbvax!calma!pincus

------------------------------

From: duncan!root@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: C. J. Cherryh: Chanur's Venture beg
Date: 19 Mar 86 22:20:00 GMT

yep, I was really bummed when I saw "Channur's Homecoming" due out in
January 1987 on my copy of The Kif Strike Back...

Malcolm Duncan
System Administrator
Duncan Communications BBS
UUCP:  {ihnp4, ucbvax}!pur-ee!pur-phy!duncan!root
USPS:  RR #1 Box 98E, Battle Ground, IN  47920

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books (are they SF?)
Date: 27 Mar 86 05:14:58 GMT

Gene Ward Smith writes:
>    This relates to a problem I mentioned when I did my choices --
>what do people mean by "SF"? "The Lord of the Rings" is wonderful,
>but to my mind neither a series nor, by any strech of the
>imagination, "SF".  If "The Lord of the Rings" is Chuq's all-time
>favorite "SF", I think I will say "Paradise Lost" is mine, with
>honerable mention to "The Tempest", and ... stop me before I say
>more!

I find two useful definitions:

 (a) Algis Budrys's "Speculative Fiction" def.

 (b) The old "what <your bookstore here> puts on the SF shelves"

Either way, LOTR passes the test.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1986 10:55:24-EST
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Favorite books

Okay,  I'll bite on Bruce Wampler's survey.  Here goes:

>  All Time Favorite:

Tough to choose just one.  I will pick Clarke's
_The_City_and_the_Stars_ for science fiction and _Lord_of_the_Rings_
for fantasy.

>  Favorite author:

I think I will have to go with Niven & Pournelle in collaboration
for consistently producing gripping books, better than either
individually.  Runners up: Anderson, Piper, Tolkien, Clarke,
Heinlein.

>  Hardest to put down:

Tie: LOTR and Dune.  Runners up: _To_Your_Scattered_Bodies_Go_,
_Lucifer's_Hammer_, _Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_

>  Best with computers:

It's only a short story, but _Computers_Don't_Argue_ by Dickson
takes the prize by a long shot.  Also, _The_Adolescence_of_P1_ was
fascinating.  And, of course, _The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress_.

>  Most interesting/unusual:

Riverworld series.  And a fantasy entry: _Inferno_ (I know, it's a
rewrite, but Dante was 700 years ago.  Enough time to become
original again.)

>  Best series:

It was cut off too soon by his untimely death, but I will go with
Piper's Paratime/Lord_Kalvan series.  Runners up: Pern, Darkover
(before Bradley got hooked on Free Amazons), Polesotechnic_League/
Flandry, Amber, Dorsai, Deryni.

>  Best written:

I have to say LOTR.

> Other books:

For sheer good fun: _The_Witches_of_Karres_ by James Schmitz.
Borderline SF/mainstream but unforgettable: _On_the_Beach_ by Nevil
Shute.  And so many others that this list would get quickly out of
hand.

Harold Wyzansky
(wyzansky@nadc.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: qantel!lynx@caip.rutgers.edu (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207)
Subject: Best SF poll
Date: 26 Mar 86 23:57:08 GMT

OK, Here's my list of favorites:

>  All Time Favorite:

This is a very difficult choice, but my current all time favorite is
"Journey From Yesteryear", by James P. Hogan; I also very much like
"The Beast Master", by Andre Norton, "The Languages of Pao", by Jack
Vance, and "Babel 17", by Samuel R. Delaney.

>  Favorite author:

James P. Hogan.  Andre Norton is my second choice

>  Hardest to put down:

"Journey From Yesteryear", by James P. Hogan.

>  Best with computers:

For me, this pretty well has to be "Two faces of Tomorrow", by James
P. Hogan; "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", by Robert A.  Heinlein is
a close runner up, and "Shockwave Rider", by John Brunner isn't bad,
either.  Then, too, there's "Neuromancer" ...

>  Most interesting/unusual:

"The Morphodite", by M.A. Foster.

>  Best series:

"Witch World" series -- by Andre Norton.

>  Best written:

Lots of good stuff -- too much of it very well written to make a
choice, as it all depends on my mood at the time ...

>  Other books:

"The Genesis Machine", by James P. Hogan.
"The Warriors of Dawn", "The Game Players of Zan", and "Day of the
Klesh", by M.A. Foster.
"Street Lethal", by Steven Barnes.
"Double Double", by John Brunner.
"Stand on Zanzibar", by John Brunner.

D.N. Lynx Crowe
UUCP: {hplabs, dual, lll-crg, ptsfa}!qantel!lynx

------------------------------

From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix)
Subject: Re: Query for netlanders!?
Date: 21 Mar 86 15:57:27 GMT

joe@oucs.UUCP (Joseph Judge) writes:
>       Remember the original Thieves World books (before the
>Beysibs)??  Ever read Robt. Lynn Asprin's Myth series books ????
>
>Well those are the books that I just couldn't stop reading - until
>they ran out.
>
>Any suggestions of other books (or short stories (I like them,too))
>that are along the genre that I could read ????

From the looks of it, you might also enjoy the "Fafred & the Grey
Mouser" series by Fritz Leiber, the 3 vol. "Blue Adept" series by
Piers Anthony (being: Split Infinity, The Blue Adept,
Juxtaposition"), as well his Xanth series might be worth the first
few at any rate.  An excellent collection of short stories written
by the team of L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt is called the The
Compleat (sp) Enchanter; and I believe I have one more title in that
series: Land of Unreason.  There that should keep you busy for
a while.  Toodles!

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: Multiple-author books
Date: 27 Mar 86 02:49:00 GMT

> Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF?  A
> sword-and-sorcery quest novel seems like a natural, wherein each
> author would have to extricate the party from one fix and leave
> them in another.

See _Thieves'_World_ series, edited (I believe; someone please catch
my error) by Robert Lynn Aspin.  I think there were 2 collections of
stories about the same world, with the same major characters, all by
relatively well-known fantasy writers.  The premise was laid out to
all at the same time, and each went off and wrote a story
accordingly (rules abounded, such as "You can't kill off a major
character, etc.).  As I recall the books were quite good, and
fascinating, though the stories were NOT linear.

A guy just mentioned Thieves' World in a posting under the heading
"Query to Netlanders" or something to that effect.  You might want
to check with him as regards this work.

mike krantz

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Multiple-author books
Date: 28 Mar 86 04:19:58 GMT

There's a comic book out called DC Challenge which is written in the
same manner.  It's a 12-issue series.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 17:29:15-PST
From: Jim McGrath <J.JPM@[36.21.0.13]>
Subject: Highlander

I thought that this was an excellent movie.  The subject matter is
somewhat old for people who are familar with SF and Fantasy, but it
was well handled and should be a good view for the general public.
The technical work was superior.  I especially liked the camera
work.  Most action scenes in most movies involve a stationary
camera(s) with the actors doing all the moving.  This film makes use
(perhaps overuse) of the camera's mobility from scene 1.  The result
is more engrossing action sequences (even though S&S action is
pretty dull for me, since I have been exposed to it once too often).

Jim

------------------------------

From: tellab1!barth@caip.rutgers.edu (Barth Richards)
Subject: Re: Hitch-hicker
Date: 21 Mar 86 23:40:13 GMT

wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>There are 2 two-albumn sets that make up the HHGTTG and TRATEOTU.

Nope. One 2 album set (THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, PART
ONE) and one single album (THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY,
PART 2 THE RESTAURANT AT THE END OF THE UNIVERSE), though the "Part
2" single album is long (about 30:00 per side).

>These are taken from the BBC Radio 4 series.

Not really. After the series had been broadcast, Adams thought that
it would be a really great idea to put the episodes out as albums.
The BBC, however, didn't think it was such a good idea.

Though Adams owned the rights to the scripts, the recordings of the
episodes themselves were property of the BBC. So, Adams decided to
assemble as many of the original actors as he could and rerecord the
shows. Along the way, he decided to clean up the scripts a bit, to
bring them more in line with the later version of the story
published in the books.

The first album (the double) covers basically the same plot as the
first four episodes of the radio program. The second album (the
single disc one) roughly covers episodes five and six.

------------------------------

From: unirot!shark@caip.rutgers.edu (chris rhodes)
Subject: Re: Yeoman
Date: 27 Mar 86 01:43:08 GMT

krewson@huey.udel.EDU writes:
>Who played STAR TREK's Yeoman Janice Rand?

An actress by the name of Grace Lee Whitney.  She was in Star Trek
III as well.  When the Enterprise returns from its tussle with Khan
and everyone in the spaceport bar is giving it a standing ovation,
she's one of the standers.

Chris Rhodes / Shooting Shark / Tiburon Systems
uucp : {ihnp4,seismo,qantel,sun,etc.}!lll-crg!csuh!shark (preferred)
                                     !caip!unirot!shark  (It'll do)

------------------------------

From: hope!spock@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Ambler)
Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others
Date: 26 Mar 86 05:38:35 GMT

British: The Tomorrow People: Of course, a children's scifi show,
         but cheesey enough to be likable.

American: Quark: Comedy from the (I think) NBC network. The
          adventures of a galactic garbage collector. Such cohorts
          as 'Ficus,' a humanoid plant. Looks, talks, and walks like
          a human, but is, apparently, a plant. (MEGA FUNNY!!)

          Outer Limits: Must I explain?!

          Space 1999: Yah, great!

Christopher J. Ambler, University of California, Riverside

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!broehl@caip.rutgers.edu (Bernie Roehl)
Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others
Date: 25 Mar 86 19:22:20 GMT

I've seen one episode of "Saphire and Steel", and yes it stars David
McCallum and Joanna Lumley ("Purdy" of the New Avengers).  The
episode I saw wasn't bad, though it wasn't exactly fast-paced.

I saw the episode at one of our local Dr. Who conventions; so far as
I know, it's never had a North American release...

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 86 10:20:09 EST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re:  Saroffs review of The Quiet Earth.
From: Power.wbst@Xerox.COM

Why is it that people who cannot resist the temptation to give away
the ending of a movie always wait until the last paragraph, when
your guard is down?

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 18:20:58-PST
From: Jim McGrath <J.JPM@[36.21.0.13]>
Subject: SF-Lovers and the Hugos

I definitely hope that somewhere down the line SF Lovers, its
moderators, and even its contributors, get honored in some form by
the SF community.  I agree that it is perhaps the most innovative
thing to hit publishing since xerox (for APAs) and paperback books.
But I also feel that it should not receive such a reward at this
time.

The risks of official interference by the government are still too
great.  The increased reliance on the USENet has somewhat diminished
this concern, but the ARPANet connections still form the backbone of
the distribution system, one provided to us free of cost by the
government.  When government priorities, and private enterprise
recognize the worth of entities such as this digest, then will be
the time for public awards.

Jim
(second, after the great Duffey, of the SF Lovers moderators)

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: My First SF-Convention
Date: 25 Mar 86 23:29:39 GMT

I spent last weekend in Seattle at NORWESCON 9, a regional and
annual (?)  sf-con with a large following.

Never having been to a "con" before, I had no idea what to expect.
My impressions evolved considerably during my stay.

At first, all I saw were a lot of people dressed up in wild
costumes.  The median age-group seemed to be late teens, early
twenties.  In fact, staying in the hotel (the SEA-TAC Red Lion Inn,
a very nice and posh place) where the con was held brought back all
my awful memories of dormitory life at college.  Lots of racket, ALL
night long, drunks, beligerants, lots of a sense of people needing
attention.

All right. So much for surface stuff.  After all, it was a
convention and as such had a program which included talks by a
variety of Guests.  There was a Guest of Honor--Anne McCaffrey; a
Science Guest--a fine man who works as a physicist (I think) with
NASA; a Guest Artist--Kelly Fries (spelling?); a
toast-master--Spider Robinson; and several others I've forgotten.
Along with the official Guests, there were featured panel speakers,
professionals associated with SF in certain ways, such as editors
(Fred Pohl), Robert Silverberg, Gene Wolfe, Jack Williamson, Greg
Bear, David Niven, Aldys Budrys (spelling?), James Hogan, Steven
Goldin, and others.  One panel discussion was titled The Business of
Writing.  It consisted of Steven Goldin, an editor, and an agent.
They pointed out that many sf-cons were business trips for the
professionals since it was an excellent place for everyone to do
their marketing or shopping or buying and selling.  NORWESCON was
offered as an example of a rising star for making business
connections.

I'm sidetracking myself.  Of the programs, one of the major efforts
is put into writing sf.  There are numerous panel discussions
ranging from brainstorm sessions on terraforming or galactic ecology
to round-table talks on literary form and image.  Thee was a series
of writers workshops in which new writers could submit a short story
prior to attending the con, then sit in with a group of pros who had
all read the work and offered their criticism.  I talked to several
people who attended the writing workshops and were mightily
impressed with the effort extended by the pros.

The television cable in the hotel had 24 hour movies (non-repeating)
on 3 different channels.  There was a series of previews from major
studios in Hollywood on upcoming sf-movies (ALIENS, or Alien 2 to
name one).  There was a huge masquerade ball with a contest, shown
live over one of the house tv channels.  There was an awards
presentation for the L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future award.

All in all, it had more depth and content than I had originally
thought.

Hot tip: get a copy of MYTHAGO WOOD by ____ Holdstock.  Everyone I
heard speak about it gave rave reviews, including the editor who
stuck her neck out to get her House to Publish it.  I'm reading it
now and can't put it down.  It is excellent....and hard to find.

Don Chitwood
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 86 0948-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #57
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 31 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Heinlein & Leiber & Zahn &
                         Merchant Books & SF Poll,
                 Television - Best TV Shows & Dr. Who,
                 Miscellaneous - Harper's Article

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)
Date: 25 Mar 86 16:46:59 GMT

I have tried to prevent this message from being a complete spoiler.
Read further at the risk of your own enjoyment.

> Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL> writes:
> The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book...  Up
> until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the universe
> from The Number Of The Beast.  Grrrr....  So if you're a diehard
> Heinlein fanatic like me and want to read it ANYWAY, wait 'til it
> comes out in paperback (I borrowed it and I am glad...)

The assumption here seems to be that _The_Number_of_the_Beast_ was
bad.

I disagree, but I realize that many people feel that way, more,
perhaps, than agree with me.  Heinlein says, by introducing
Pantheistic Multi- person Solipsism, or whatever he calls it, that
science fiction wherein Mars has canals and Venus has swamps need
not be relegated to the scrap heap merely because those planets
turned out to be more boring than we had hoped.  I'll be the first
to admit the final chapters of NotB were a little (!) hard to
follow.  But if for no other reason than the introduction of PMS,
NotB is worthwhile.

I disagree with the proportions stated above, too.  The first third
of the book is totally new; it takes place in an circum-Luna orbital
habitat called Golden Rule and it introduces totally new characters.
The next third takes place in Luna some 100 years after the
Revolution described in _The_Moon_is_a_Harsh_Mistress_, involving
characters some of which we have seen before.  The final third is
where Multiperson Solipsism (in the form of the Burroughs Continuum
Craft) rears its head of debatable beauty.

>  Steve Anich <anich@puff.UUCP> writes:
>  I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did
>  anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending
>  actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the
>  characters from his other stories?

No, no, no!  He was safeguarding his characters from death.  Now
they can never die.  Or rather, they can die, but he will not be
bound by their deaths.  Over and over again, throughout the book,
Heinlein explains how some "future histories" record the failure of
the Novak/Ames/Hubert expedition, while others record its success.
You get to choose for yourself.  As does Heinlein.  If he were to
live another hundred years (my book-reading circuits squirm with
pleasure at the thought) he could write a sequel or sequels to
either possibility, or both.

P.S.  "Diehard Heinlein Fanatics" will note that Jubal Harshaw seems
to have forgotten who first landed on *his* moon, as related in
_Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land.

S. Luke Jones
E-mail:  (uucp)  {{...}!ihnp4}!mtung!slj
USnAIL:  Room HO 1G-302, AT&T Information Systems,
         Crawfords Corner Road, Holmdel NJ  07733

------------------------------

From: jdarnold@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Jonathan Arnold)
Subject: Re: Query for netlanders!?
Date: 28 Mar 86 03:04:25 GMT

phoenix@genat.UUCP () writes:
>From the looks of it, you might also enjoy the "Fafred & the Grey
>Mouser" series by Fritz Leiber

It should be Fafhrd (pronounced "Faf-erd").

I whole-heartedly endorse the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser suggestions!
These books (all 6) are engrossing, uniquely written and have a
heavy dose of realism (for a fantasy world anyway).

   "Two robbers had been simultaneously counter-thieved by
    two youths working independently of each other.  The two
    now faced over the sprawled, senseless bodies.
      Fafhrd said, "Our motives for being here seem identical."
      "`Seem'? Surely must be!" the Mouser answered curtly,
    fiercely eyeing this huge potential foe.
      "How civilized of you!" Fafhrd commented in pleased
    tones.  Then he glanced down, first at the belt and pouch
    of one fallen thief, then at Mouser with a broad,
    ingenious smile. "Sixty-sixty?" he suggested.
      And thus was born a most improbable partnership."
        - From the Nebula award-winning
           "Ill met in Lankhmar", Book 1 - Swords and Deviltry

There are six books, but I'm not sure if they are still published.
I have the full set in paperback from Ace science fiction, dated
1970 - 77 :
        1) Swords and Deviltry - 3 stories + intro
        2) Swords against Death - 20 stories
        3) Swords in the Mist - 6 stories
        4) Swords against Wizardry - 4 stories
        5) Swords of Lankhmar - Full length novel
        6) Swords and Ice Magic - 8 stories

The are wonderful sword and sorcery novels/stories, written by
Leiber from 1940 - 1977.  I'll just finish off this with his
description of our 2 heroes, from book #5:

   Fafhrd and the Mouser are rogues through and through, though each
has in him a lot of humanity and at least a diamond chip of the
spirit of true adventure.  They drink, they feast, they wench, they
brawl, they steal, they gamble, and surely they hire out their
swords to powers that are only a shade better, if that, than the
villains.  It strikes me (and something might be made of this) that
Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are almost at the opposite extreme from
the heroes of Tolkien.  My stuff is at least equally as fantastic as
his, but it's an earthier sort of fantasy with a strong seasoning of
"black fantasy" - or of black humor, to use the current phrase for
something that was once called gallows' humor and goes a long, long
way.  Though with their vitality, appetites, warm sympathies, and
imagination, Fafhrd and the Mouser are anything but "sick" heroes.
   One of the original motives for conceiving Fafhrd and the Mouser
was to have a couple of fantasy heroes closer to true human stature
than supermen like Conan and Tarzan and many anothers.  In a way
they're a mixture of Cabell and Eddison, if we must look for
literary ancestors.  Fafhrd and the Mouser have a touch of Jurgen's
cynicism and anti-romanticism, but they go on boldly having
adventures - one more roll of the dice with destiny and death.
While the characters they most parallel in "The Worm Ouroboros" are
Corund and Gro, yet I don't think they're touched with evil as those
two, rather they're rogues in a decadent world where you have to be
a rogue to survive; perhaps, in legendry, Robin Hood comes closest
to them, though they're certainly a pair of lone-wolf Robin Hoods .
. ."

Sorry I've gone on so long, but I REALLY like these books (no
kidding ;-))

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 12:11:38-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Cobra and Zahn; criticism

I've seen a number of people praising Zahn and his two novels as if
he were a Big Name; I've read Cobra (not the sequel) and I don't
understand what the hoopla is about -- in fact I thought Cobra was
terrible.

The writing was just, well, amateurish, and the plot itself was both
inane and hackneyed -- I mean Van Vogt &c. must have done it to
death decades ago, kind of like the plots you used to see in the
former "Classic Science Fiction" magazine.

Come on, evil alien invaders, an elite special corps who are now the
resistance, a young jerk who tags along for the ride -- give me a
break. Furthermore, I was willing to let a lot of the silliness go
-- you know, first novel, and so on, in recompense for the only
vaguely new twist, that the superwarriors are actually ninja-type
martial artists (this because I am interested in novels dealing with
martial arts). However, Zahn clearly doesn't know the first thing
about what he is writing about, or if so, he clever disguises it!

Shuriken versus APC is just a little much, don't you think? And
those aliens, who presumably defeated the vaunted Human war machine,
are just sooooo incompetent -- worse than Libyans! I don't have the
book at hand, but it MUST have been published by Baen Books, the
Soldier of Fortune of the SF world.

Now I'm not prejudiced against war novels, I think David Drake is
doing a good, if somewhat brutal job, and I like Dickson, Heinlein,
et al., but these writers, though not generally (in my opinion)
writers of extremely high literary quality, are at least good
storytellers who can write (reasonably) compelling and or believable
prose.

Now, maybe someone who likes Zahn can describe something GOOD about
Cobra, or maybe he has written something else -- short stories or
something -- in a different vein, something I am not familiar with?
I just can't imagine Cobra Strike to be anything more than a
somewhat better written (second novel, not first) Cobra.

Fortunately, I am not a professional reviewer -- it is just too much
fun tearing into another's work -- kind of makes you feel like a
scavenger, huh?

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 86 14:33:50 EST
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re:  Merchant books wanted

A superior merchant book is "the shattered stars" by Richard S.
McEnroe (bantam/Spectra)

I recommend it to all Sf Lovers.

------------------------------

From: calma!pincus@caip.rutgers.edu (Jon Pincus)
Subject: Re: Best SF poll
Date: 27 Mar 86 22:05:04 GMT

>>  All Time Favorite:

Probably the Illuminatus trilogy (which has since been reissued in a
single volume, so I don't feel guilty about naming a trilogy as a
novel).  I'm not sure whether it's truly sf, but it's close enough.
It's by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, and I recommend it --
hilarious.

>>  Favorite author:

John Brunner, who's more consistent than Philip K. Dick, my second
choice.

>>  Hardest to put down:

Hmm . . . well, I remember finishing Dune in one sitting, so that
must be up there.  On the other hand, I also stayed up all night
reading the Deathworld trilogy, which I'm now vaguely embarassed
about.

>>  Best with computers:

_Shockwave Rider_, by John Brunner.

>>  Most interesting/unusual:

I thought _Lord of Light_ (by Zelazny) was a very clever idea, and
well executed also.  The _Schrodinger's Cat_ trilogy (also by RA
Wilson) is written in a way to reflect the various explanations of
quantum theory . . . hard to decide if this is "interesting/unusual"
or just gimmicky, but it was fun anyhow.

>>  Best series:

Probably the _Known Space_ series by Larry Niven (up through
_Ringworld Engineers_, anyhow), but the first three volumes of
Riverworld were right up there.  Make that the first two and a half,
on second thought.

>>  Best written:

No choice here; lots of well-written stuff, but nothing that stands
out.

>>  Other books:

_Dragon in the Sea_ (aka _Under Pressure_) by Frank Herbert, which I
think is a fine psychological suspense/mystery novel (and borderline
SF) which always seems to get overlooked.

jon
ucbvax!calma!pincus

------------------------------

From: watrose!mwnorman@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Norman)
Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others
Date: 26 Mar 86 02:04:36 GMT

> Recently I got into a discussion with some friends about science
> fiction TV shows.  We were comparing American shows with those
> from other English speaking countries. I, of course, made some
> points very well (strike that, very loudly and decidedly), and now
> I am trying to get some facts to back them up.
>
> What I need is a list of shows and a brief synopsis of each.  I
> would prefer outlines of only the more obscure shows.  (I've seen
> Star Trek and Doctor Who).  If you have any opinions on what made
> a show particularly good or bad I'd really like to hear about that
> too (this includes Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.), and, of course,
> any feelings about the differences between products of various
> countries.

I remember the _Star Lost_ very well.  I had big hopes when I heard
that Ben Bova was the creative consultant for it, BUT ....  The sets
were terrible, and the acting WORSE yet!  It had two unknown
Canadian actors (it WAS a Canadian production for the main part) and
Keir Dullea (sp?) as the three protagonists.  The basic theme is
similar to R.A. Heinlein's _Orphans in the Sky_ (or _Universe_,
_Universe II - Da Capo_, which ever you prefer); The Ark (as it was
called) contained pods in which portions of Earth's unique cultures
were supposed to be preserved.  SOMETHING goes wrong (I think it was
a rebellion or something) and the bridge is wrecked and the Ark
drifts for a long, long time.  Our three characters are from the
Amish life-pod and then have lots of adventures ... I thought that
only one of them, Devon, actually represented more or less correctly
the Amish's distaste for technology

The other program that I thought was REALLY good was called the
_Tomorrow People_.  As a series (I think about 2-3 years were
produced in England), it was really good!  The premise behind this
one is that the tomorrow people are the next mutation after man, and
they have some pretty neat psychic powers, BUT they are unable to
harm or kill anyone with them (Evolution deals them ethics, neat,
eh?).  Usual stories about mean Defense Dept. people (both OUR and
the RUSKIES)) that want to USE them ...  The acting was good, the
set great (I mean really good; better than Dr. Who :) ).  I saw this
on CBC about 10 years ago. Anyone else remember it?

Mike Norman
University of Waterloo
{backbone site like allegra, utzoo, some others ..}
  !watmath!watrose!mwnorman

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 86 22:40:52 PST (Mon)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doctor Who, K9 and Company

Opinions on this were solicited.  I'm happy to offer mine:

I'm glad to hear there's an entire season of "K9 and Company"
(though I guess I shouldn't be too quick to assume that there is).
I thought there was only 1 episode, which I have seen on a tape lent
to me by a friend.

The negative part first, so I can get it out of the way: I found the
titles actually embarrassing.  Silly, cutesy, and cheap.  I had a
brief impression they were trying to do for Sarah (and failing) what
The Avengers' titles did well for Mrs. Peel, and the degree of
failure was painful to see.  They could have been done MUCH better.

Right, that's the negative part done.  Now for the good:

Between "K9 and Company", and Peter Davison's "Doctor Who", I easily
prefer the former.  Not only because I miss Tom Baker's Doctor, to
whom I find Davison's really doesn't measure up, and of which Sarah
was a part, but because the arty, crafty, self-important atmosphere
that seems to have overtaken Doctor Who was refreshingly absent.  I
felt much more of the solid, unabashedly English air that seemed to
me to characterise Tom Baker's episodes.  In fact, had Tom Baker's
Doctor reappeared briefly, I wouldn't have found him out of place.

Beyond that, I had the pleasure of encountering two old friends whom
I'd not hoped to meet again, and of finding them substantially
unchanged.  K9 was certainly the old K9 ("Congratulations are
unnecessary, Mistress"), and Sarah seemed changed only in being a
bit more prosperous than before.  That their backgrounds were
obviously extremely different -- one could say literally light-years
apart -- I think was probably more a benefit than otherwise.  We
have already seen K9 with a companion almost "his" opposite (Leela),
and one who was very similar (Romana).  To my mind this makes it all
the more interesting to see what sort of relations would develop
with Sarah.

In short, I was really quite pleased with it.  I could say more, but
I think that's enough for something of which I've only seen one
episode.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Harper's Article on SF
Date: 26 Mar 86 14:52:15 GMT

DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA writes:

>...  Hopefully these excerpts will stimulate some good discussion
>here on SF-LOVERS.

They already did, a few months back. Perhaps people who want to
discuss the Sante article could do it by e-mail, since I'm not sure
reopening the discussion would be that productive?

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 86 1010-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #58
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 31 Mar 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:

                Books - Card & Ellison & Henderson &
                        Herbert & Norton & Priest &
                        Tolkien & Zahn & Getting Books &
                        SF Poll,
                Films - Highlander,
                Television - Videos of Programs & Best TV Show,
                Miscellaneous - Long Names & Road Rally

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game review
Date: 27 Mar 86 19:15:22 GMT

ENDER'S GAME originally appeared as a novella (novelette?) in (I
believe) one of the monthly magazines. It has also been anthologized
(my copy is in THERE WILL BE WAR, J. Pournelle, ed.).

I found the novella much better than the novel. The novella is lean,
clean, and the ending (which is **spoiled** by the book cover blurb)
is more powerful. The novella leaves out the computer stuff, which
is reasonably worthwhile, but I still like the shorter version.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: nessus@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Doug Alan)
Subject: I Have No Mouth
Date: 28 Mar 86 23:30:15 GMT

ross@smeagol.UUCP (Gary Ross) writes:
> Another good story about a computer becoming alive is the short
> story "I have no mouth and I must scream" by Harlan Ellison.
> (Note: This story was the basis for the plot of the movie "The
> Terminator" which I enjoyed immensely).  You'll probably find this
> in one of Ellison's collections of short stories.  Sorry but I
> don't know which one.

What???  "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" and "The Terminator"
aren't even remotely similar.


Doug
Nessus@Eddie.MIT.EDU
{allegra,seismo,decvax!genrad}!mit-eddie!nessus
MIT, E40-358a, Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 253-0147

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Zenna Henderson
Date: 27 Mar 86 11:09:31 GMT

> From: hpfcms!mpm      (Mike McCarthy)
>      Is Zenna [Henderson] still writing?  Is there a possibility
> of another book about The People?  (I know she's written one or
> two short stories about them for Analog or some other S-F
> periodical.)

Sadly, Zenna Henderson died a couple of years ago. The later People
stories appeared in THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION circa
10 years ago.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: cullvax!ddg@caip.rutgers.edu (Dana Groff)
Subject: Re: Frank Herberts "Heretics of Dune"
Date: 27 Mar 86 01:49:25 GMT

> An aside: Frank Herbert is dead. He died almost 4 weeks ago I
> think of a heart failure at the age of 65, I think. This is a
> reply to the person (my memory has checksum errs) who had the
> "Tell me it isn't so !" subject line.

Frank Herbert, 65, died of massive pulmonary embolism on Feb. 11,
1986.  while recuperating from cancer surgery.  He was undergoing
experimental cancer treatments at the UWisc. Cancer Center, was in
good spirits, and working on a short story on his lap computer
during the afternoon, when he complained of not feeling well.  He
lapsed into a coma and never woke up.

All information from LOCUS, Vol 19, #3, Oakland CA
The Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field

(and worth subscribing to if you are a FEN)

Dana seismo!harvard!rclex!cullvax!ddg.UUCP

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Andre/Mary Norton
Date: 27 Mar 86 10:50:45 GMT

> From: tekigm2!wrd     (Bill Dippert)
> NORTON,ANDRE (pseud. Andrew North, Allen Weston, Mary Norton*)
>            (born:  Alice Mary Norton)
>             * Henry Chai has looked up Mary Norton and says that
>             she is a different person, others have told me that
>             she is the same person.  At this point I do not know!

Mary Norton is *definitely* not the same person as Andre Norton.
Anyone who tells you differently is wrong.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Favorite books--Inverted world
Date: 24 Mar 86 19:16:17 GMT

>> Most interesting/unusual: Maybe not exciting or a classic, but
>>      has very unusual or interesting ideas.
>"Inverted World" by Christopher Priest.  Strange & great.

I'm glad to see someone mention this one.  I read it many years ago,
and forgot title and author, but the ideas remained--then refound it
just this year.  An amazing and wonderful book.  Just what is
reality anyway?

Recommended.

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Not the Next Tolkein
Date: 28 Mar 86 04:18:07 GMT

>>Only Tolkien is comparable.  Only Lord of the Rings.
>Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to
>hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature?  Much as I
>hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that The Lord of
>the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in gods-know-how-many pages of
>description, with an all- egory so obvious Tolkien had to deny it
>in the forward.  It's overwritten, overdecorated, and overrated.
>So there.

Two things here:

To my mind the LOTR is a thing unto itself.  It is not an allegory,
although it certainly is in part a meditation upon the themes of a
certain popular religion (Tolkien did help write the English
Jerusalem Bible, after all).  It is not a simple adventure story,
although it contains one to carry the thing along.  It is written in
a style which today is a bit archaic, but which is very simple when
examined closely.

I had great trouble with it the first time I read it.  It dragged, I
skipped great chunks of it, I was often confused.  Last year I read
it again, for the first time in many years.  It's amazing what ten
years can do.  It read easily, and all the little detail stood out
plainly.  This leads me to believe that it is a book which demands
an unusual maturity in the reader.  It isn't a book for younger
readers.

The other point is about this business of every new fantasy
adventure being labelled "Best since Tolkien!" Complete with
exclamation point, even.  Now I'm sorry, but I don't find anything
which fills the bill, and moreover, it cheapens the Tolkien works
terribly.  Even the works I really like do not compare with Tolkien,
because those that I like don't attempt to duplicate what Tolkien
did.  Re-creating a cosmology and then working through it has gotten
old, especially given the dreary sameness of many of these worlds.
The only thing that saves K. Kurtz's Deryni and the Belgariad from
this fate is that they both partake of very modern style and
characterization, thus standing away from Tolkien.  Virtually every
book which contains beings like unto Tolkien's elves charges right
over into the abyss, though.  People always forget that in the
Silmarillion the elves are akin to Milton's angels in their passions
and acts; they are nearly supernatural.  Making them "nice" gives
the same effect as a saccharin victorian "pretty" angel.  Gygax in
this respect is the last person who should speak.  D&D has reduced
the elves from legendary men of yore, who did great things, to mere
vehicles for the asperations of the players.  The gulf between the
dice-rolling adventurer and the titanic rage of Feanor is nearly
infinite in breadth.

So let's stop using the LOTR as a yardstick, and start treating it
like the great work of fantasy literature that it is.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Cobra and Zahn; criticism
Date: 28 Mar 86 05:03:24 GMT

BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes:

> Now, maybe someone who likes Zahn can describe something GOOD
> about Cobra, or maybe he has written something else -- short
> stories or something -- in a different vein, something I am not
> familiar with? I just can't imagine Cobra Strike to be anything
> more than a somewhat better written (second novel, not first)
> Cobra.
>
> Fortunately, I am not a professional reviewer -- it is just to
> much fun tearing into another's work -- kind of makes you feel
> like a scavenger, huh?

It's a good thing you're not a professional reviewer.  You reviewed
the WRONG BOOK!  The book you're describing (martial artists as
super-warriors, aliens who defeat humanity, shuriken and nunchaku
used as weapons) is Blackcollar.

Cobras, for example, are not martial-artists.  They are people who
have surgically implanted bone sheathing, servo motors, sensors,
anti-personnel and anti-armor lasers, and a sophisticated combat
computer that is programmed to handle a variety of combat reflexes,
manuvers and a multi-targeting fire-control system.

The Cobras were used as guerilla/resistance fighters on
enemy-occupied planets.  Humanity lost only a few planets and
eventually won the war.

The Cobras' real problems started after they won the war and wanted
to go home and be civilians again.  The combat computer,
anti-personnel lasers, servo-motors, and bone sheathing can't be
removed.  The combat computer was also designed, for battle-field
security reasons, so it can't be reprogrammed or turned off.

Ray Chen
gatech!chen

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Obtaining books
Date: 27 Mar 86 18:45:14 GMT

>A bookstore cannot order one paper back book direct from the
>publisher.
>Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA

Since when?  Both our local B. Daltons and Waldenbooks have been
happy to order in-print paperbacks singly for me.

I personally would rather patronize our local sf-bookstore (Mile-Hi
Comics), or the *very* fine independant (Tattered Cover) that we
have here.  But they are farther away.  So I have done this--and
know it works.

And Tattered Cover will order one copy of *anything*, no matter how
weird.  (And my tastes are weird, on occasion.)  I haven't tried
ordering weird stuff from the chains--just things they should carry
and don't, so I don't know if they would get you anything--but it
doesn't hurt to try.

I can and do order books direct from the publisher--why would a
bookstore be unable to do so?

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: Best SF poll
Date: 28 Mar 86 04:41:00 GMT

Who can resist advertising one's taste?

>  All Time Favorite:

_Dhalgren_, by Samuel R. Delany

>  Favorite author:

Without question Gene Wolfe, eliminated from above question since
The Book of the New Sun is a series.

>  Hardest to put down:

Zelazny's Amber series, Frederick Pohl's _Gateway_.

>  Best with computers:

Though with hesitation, I'd have to say Asimov's _I, Robot_.  He
isn't the greatest writer - in fact, he's not even close - but the
ideas here are the best he's come up with, and cut to the crux of
the AI question (at least they do if you read the book right).
There are probably better answers to this but I'm not well-read
enough on SF since 1980...

> Most interesting/unusual:

Good category.  Ursula K. LeGuin's _The_Left_Hand_Of_Darkness, still
the best commentary on feminist/gender issues.

>  Best series:

Gene Wolfe's The Book Of the New Sun, followed by Tolkien, followed
by Zelazny's Amber books (I'd like to take this opportunity to say
that although the first book of Dune is unquestionably a classic, I
find the rest highly overrated and hanging by the first's coattails.

>  Best written:

Wolfe.  By 5000 sectors.

>  Other books:

Zelazny's _Jack_Of_Shadows_, read by blacklight with the soundtrack
from _Kooyanaskatsi_ (sp?) playing, and the proper cognitive
stimulation...

I'd like to thank the Academy...

mike krantz

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Highlander
Date: 27 Mar 86 15:24:24 GMT

Jim McGrath <J.JPM@[36.21.0.13]> writes:
>I thought that this [Highlander] was an excellent movie...
...
>The technical work was
>superior.  I especially liked the camera work.

  I agree, to some extent.  However, it's a strong contender for my
G-sub-FX rating, a warning for those who can't stomach Gratuitous
Special Effects.

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

------------------------------

From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Batman Tapes?
Date: 26 Mar 86 20:51:00 GMT

> I am primarily interested in Batman, but would also like to get
> "The Prisoner", "Mr. Ed", and "My Favorite Martian"...

The Prisoner is available on VHS and Beta from many videostores,
Videotheque in L.A. being one of them.  Price = $39.95 per episode x
17 episodes = outrageous.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780
hplabs/hao/ico/ism780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others
Date: 26 Mar 86 11:40:26 GMT

The shows I thought were best were (in the order I became aware of
them)

Science Fiction Theater (A weekly anthology series.  Good for its
time, I was very small when I saw them originally and on reruns some
episodes seemed simplistic).

Twilight Zone (particularly early seasons)

Way Out (anthology based on really strange stories by Roual Dahl.)

Outer Limits (some quite good episodes)

Star Trek (some good science fiction, but not up to its reputation
[even if saying so means that I am lining up to be a hot lunch])

The Survivors (British series, seen on Canadian TV from Detroit)

My choice for best was Survivors.  It is the only science fiction tv
series that had non-science-fiction-fans arguing about the concepts
for a day or so after each episode, at least where I worked.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Long Names
Date: 27 Mar 86 11:04:30 GMT

> From: tekigm2!wrd     (Bill Dippert)
> Which science fiction author has probably the longest name?
> John Wyndham Parkes Lucas Beynon Harris

Sorry, try

Ramon Felipe San Juan Mario Silvio Enrico Smith
Heathcourt-Brace Sierra y Alvarez-del Rey y
de los Uerdes [or Verdes].

(Lester del Rey).

Seriously!

According to Nicholls' SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA, though, del
Rey's own "current version" of his name is Ramon Felipe Alvarez-del
Rey.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Copy of file RALLY
Date: 26 Mar 86 17:12:21 GMT

cerebus%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>1) I am trying to set up an Albany to Boston Rally for next
>BOSKONE.  It will be held on the Massachusetts Turnpike, and the
>goal is to drive abrest the entire way at 55 mph.

And I hope that there are enough survivors of the inevitable riot to
hold the memorial service.

Please don't mark on the cars in any way that you are SF fans, okay?

You *are* kidding, right?  You don't really mean "drive the whole
way from Albany to Boston in a row across the highway (I assume
that's what you mean by "abreast") at 55 miles per hour, causing
traffic to pile up behind us for miles, and impeding other people
who have equal right to use the highway, not to mention possibly
preventing emergency vehicles and the police from getting to the
site of an accident."

Can anyone else think of a sufficient way of describing some of the
inherent problems without using the word "jerks?"

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Apr 86 0853-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #59
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:

                   Administrivia - Announcements,
                   Books - Adams (2 msgs) & DeCamp,
                   Films - A Girl and her Cat,
                   Television - Dr. Who & Martin Landau,
                   Miscellaneous - Poetry Reading & Hugos &
                           Thubanicon & Message to All

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 86 00:00:01 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Administrivia

   I have bad news for all readers of SF-LOVERS.  I am very sorry to
say that due to rising costs of computer time and telephone charges
for connections, subscriptions to the digest must be paid for in
cash.  I have not yet decided on the actual rates but they will have
to cover the cost of the phone charges to connect to your site.
   Those of you who are doing redistribution to other readers will
of course only have to pay for a single copy.  Whether or not you
want to charge your redistribution people for the issues is up to
you.  Since I only send the one copy, I only need to charge you
once.
   Now if you will all stop crying into your coffee cups I will tell
you how you can get a *free* subscription to the digest.  That's
right, I am hear by announcing the First Official SF-LOVERS
Subscription Contest.  Any reader who answers the following
questions will receive SF-LOVERS absolutely **FREE** for a year.  Of
course, those who are receiving this from a redistribution site may
not be charged anyway, but you can still have fun trying to win the
contest.
   Mail your contest entries to:
SF-LOVERS-CONTEST@RED.RUTGERS.EDU.

   Entries sent to any other mailing address will be disqualified.
And now for the contest questions and good luck to all!

   1. What was Clark Kent's phone number at the Daily Planet?
   2. In Star Trek, what was
       a. Kirk's middle name?
       b. Kirk's service number?
       c. Spock's service number?
       d. Scott's service number?
       e. Who was Leo Walsh?
       f. What three words did Kirk tell Edith Keeler would
          replace "I love you"?
       g. In which three episodes did Uhura sing?
       h. Within 50 feet, how long is the Enterprise?
       i. Biologically speaking, why are Spock's ears
          pointed?
   3. In the film Dark Star, what was special about the death
      of the previous captain?
   4. You've all heard of a book called "The Chronic Argonauts"
      but possibly not by that name.  By what name is it more
      commonly known and who wrote it?
   5. Who was Eric Arthur Blair?
   6. How many times did Buster Crabbe appear in:
       a. Buck Rogers
       b. Flash Gordon
       c. Tarzan
   7. What was interesting about Gerard Manley's wife ShRil in
      Warren Norwood's "Windhover Tapes" series?
   8. In what year was L. Frank Baum's first Oz book filmed?
   9. What was the first space show to appear on TV?
  10. How many issues of SF-LOVERS were there in Volume 10?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Mar 86 03:14:37 MST
From: HAL%IBM-SJ.CSNET@CSNET-RELAY
Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  I just finished reading the books by Douglas Adams.  I don't
understand them.  I don't see the humor in any of them.  Some
comments: I thought humans only had one head.  Where did Zaphod get
the other head?  Why does Ford Prefect go roaming the galaxy to
write a book that he is obviously not getting paid for?  The
mathematics behind the improbability drive can't possibly work! And
I feel very sorry for Marvin.  Imagine being all alone for that
length of time!  Can you imagine standing idle for millions of
years.  I think I can.  And what kind of name for a computer is
"Deep Thought" anyway?

Hal

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 86 16:48:14 EST
From: Jon Trudel <TRUDEL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: More of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

So I'll Just Go Stick My Head In A Bucket Of Water, Shall I?
by Douglas Adams

Well, he finally did it.  Mr. Adams published the fifth book for the
Hitchhiker's trilogy series.  This one is actually quite depressing,
but that's because it only involves Marvin, the paranoid android.
Marvin, if you will remember, was abandoned by Arthur, Ford, Zaphod,
and Trillian on the planet Magrathea when they got transported to
Milliways, the restaurant at the end of the universe.  What happened
to Marvin while he was waiting for them to show up?  This book is an
attempt to explain just that.

The book picks up about 2 million years after they've left.  Marvin
has been alone all this time, and he finally decides to find a better
place to mope.  Magrathea's planet builders have come back to life,
but the planet is covered by a vast layer of chinchilla fur and
marshmallow fudge.  Obviously, something has gone awry with the
planet-building complex deep inside Magrathea.  Marvin does not bother
to find out why, as he expects to be blamed for it by all of the sloth
descended life forms of the planet.  Marvin talks a prospective
planet-owner into taking him off Magrathea.  Here the fun begins.

                      **Major spoiler alert!!!**

Marvin is taken to the planet of Lektovardul XXIX, a planet of
terminally happy people.  They have everything they want, and none of
the things they don't want.  All that changes when Marvin asks their
leader why they aren't depressed, a term they were heretofore unaware
of.  After Marvin begrudgingly (how else?) tells them what it means,
the entire population decides to become holy warriors of the
depressed, determined to make the universe a nicer place to live in by
eliminating all sources of depression.  The first thing to go, or so
they think, is Marvin.  Luckily, he is able to transfer the blame to
the famed Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.  The self-proclaimed
liberators of depression, or LODs, resolve that Marvin, who was
supposed to be "Your plastic pal who's fun to be with!", is actually a
plant by the corporation to spread dissent and mass depression.  This
is the start of the so-called revolution, and I won't reveal who was
the first group up against the wall.  After the revolution ends,
Marvin comes out of hiding.  Unfortunately, people are still
depressed, mostly because of the wartime expenses.  Marvin decides to
devote the rest of his existence to teaching portable quasi-meson
power generators to be more cynical.  Through means I'd rather not go
into, Marvin ends up back on Magrathea just in time for the universe
to end.  All quite funny.

I've already revealed enough, but I had to say it.  As a matter of
fact, I was enticed into it just by reading the last few chapters of
SIJGSMHIABOWSI.  It turns out to be genuinely comical, and one of my
favorite passages deals with Marvin's adventure with a herd of spleen-
eating fermbirds.  The conversation with the toaster is pretty funny,
but the conjugal visit by the missionary from the planet of naturally
occurring athletic supporters tops it.  I won't be cruel to another
male athlete again.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel

------------------------------

From: mxyzptlk!il@caip.rutgers.edu (I. leper)
Subject: TOUN RAICIS by L. Sprague DeCamp
Date: 23 Mar 86 17:22:11 GMT

                 TOUN RAICIS by L. Sprague DeCamp
                           Bluejay, 1986
                     A book review by Ima Leper

     DeCamp's TOUN RAICIS is the latest in the long line of
excellent stories by this author and it has a lot going for it.

     The story concerns a nightclub singer named Bob Tayldnag who is
forced into representing the Earth in a race across five parsecs of
space.  His opponent is named Duda and is a member of a mysterious
alien race known as the Bey.  From the very first, your money will
likely be bet on Bob Tayldnag as mine was since he is quite
obviously the underdog in the race although some of you may be
betting on the Bey.

I can only give a brief synopsis here since any more would give the
plot of the book away.  But I will say that TOUN RAICIS is well
worth reading.

Ima Leper
...ih4u!mxyzptlk!il

------------------------------

From: Duane Datub
Subject: Film Review - A Girl and her Cat
Date: 28 Mar 86 11:55:48 GMT

   This movie was adapted from the novel of the same name by Ellan
Harison.  It is about the dehumanized remnants of human society
after World War IV and paints a dreary picture.
   Apparently, all the males had been killed during the war leaving
only isolated groups of males.  The women roam the desert landscape
searching for food, men and entertainment.  When a man is spotted by
a group of females travelling in packs, there is no hope for the man
left.
   Also as a result of the radiation fallout, most of the animals
had been killed off.  Only cats survived for some unknown reason.
They also had developed a telepathic link with their owners and so
became very useful for hunting.  The cat in the film has some of the
best lines though.
   The girl is kidnapped by the rulers of an underground society
made up predominantly of males who had lived in the New York area
before the war and been classed as 4F by the armed forces.  The men
plan to use the girl for rebuilding the population as the girls in
the colony are all frigid.
   The film is very well made and has some interesting
characterizations. The dialogue could have used a lot more work as
the cat had the best lines as I said.  The ending came as a surprise
to me when I first saw it so I won't reveal it here.  It is somewhat
disgusting though.
   The film is definitely a must see for all SF fans.

Duane Datub
...!i'm!drowning!in!datub

------------------------------

From: boyamgud@route66.DEC
Subject: re: History of the Daleks
Date: 30 Mar 86 19:41:14 GMT

   Although I am more famous for more long list of book
bibliographies I also happen to be a Doctor Who fan.  In response to
a recent request for the Doctor Who stories involving Daleks I have
come up with the following list.  Unfortunately, my collection of
Doctor Who memorabilia is all packed up in boxes for the moment so I
cannot give credit to the writers or a plot synopsis.  These will
come at a later date.

   Guide:
      * Missing Episode
      + Never Filmed - No Novelization (Outline only)
      # Novelization Only

   1st incarnation (William Hartnell):
        The Daleks
        *Children of the Daleks
        *Dalek Messiah
        *God Emperor of the Daleks
        *Dalek Heretics
        The Dalek Invasion of Earth
        The Chase
        Mission to the Unknown
        The Dalek Master Plan
        Daleks Rising

   2nd incarnation (Patrick Troughton):
        The Power of the Daleks
        The Evil of the Daleks
        +The Songs of the Daleks
        #The Dalek Conspiracy
        #Where the Daleks Dwell

   3rd incarnation (Jon Pertwee):
        Day of the Daleks
        Planet of the Daleks
        Death to the Daleks
        +The Web of the Daleks
        +The Book of Daleks
        #The Dalek Murders

   4th incarnation (Tom Baker):
        Genesis of the Daleks
        Destiny of the Daleks
        Lamentations of the Daleks
        Acts of the Daleks
        #The Dalek Chronicles
        The Return of the Daleks

   5th incarnation (Peter Davison):
        Resurrection of the Daleks
        Biography of a Dalek
        +The Flying Daleks
        #The River of the Dancing Daleks
        The Patchwork Dalek
        +Tales of the Dalek Mythos
        Daleks and Deviltry

   6th incarnation (Colin Baker):
        Revelation of the Daleks

   The following stories have been scripted and are scheduled to be
filmed when production on the show resumes:
      Nine Princes in Skaros
      The Daleks of Avalon
      Sign of the Daleks
      The Hand of Davros
      The Daleks of Chaos
      The Daleks of Doom

--- obee (O. Boyamgud, DEC, Egg-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvacks|ih4u|allegro|ucbvacks|...}
        !decworld!dia-rhea!dec-route66!boyamgud
ARPA:   boyamgud%route66.DEC@DECWORLD.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 86 02:42:25 MST
From: done@utah-cs.arpa (Done Seeding)
Subject: Obituary

Interesting story from the Los Angeles Times:

San Clemente: Police have announced that veteran TV actor Martin
Landau was killed today in a car crash.  The autopsy revealed that
his blood contained high quantities of alcohol and copper.
Officials have refused to comment on the chemical make-up of the
actor's blood nor have they released any speculation about the
evidence of cosmetic surgery found about the ears and forehead by
the pathologist during the investigation.

There was additional secrecy concerning the fate of Landau's actress
wife Barbara Bain who was seen in the car shortly before the crash.
Eyewitnesses claim that Ms. Bain was seen walking "shakily away from
the crash an' sparkin' like a shorted out TV set."

Done Seeding    University of Utah CS Dept    done@utah-cs.arpa
31 41' 5"N 93 20' 34"W    (901) 555-1212      decvacks!utah-cs!done

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 86 02:42:25 MST
From: starfleet!kalash@cape.rutgers.edu
Subject: ATTENTION ALL READERS OF SF-LOVERS

   There will be a Vogon poetry reading session at the New York
Public Library on April 15, 1986 from 1 pm to 3pm.  All people
receiving this message as well as all IRS employees are required to
attend.
   Anyone disobeying this direct order from the Vogon war fleet will
be tied down to a chair and forced to listen to 10 hours of Vogon
poetry.  Anyone attending the reading and not enjoying themselves
will receive the same treatment except will also be forced to watch
reruns of all of the Gilligan's Island episodes (made-for-TV movies
included).

General Kalash
Supreme Commander of the Vogon War Fleet

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Mar 86 18:20:58-PST
From: Charles Brown <CBROWN@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: SF-Lovers and the Hugos

mcgrath%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa writes:
>The risks of official interference by the government are still too
>great.  The increased reliance on the USENet has somewhat diminished
>this concern, but the ARPAnet connections still form the backbone of
>the distribution system, one provided to us free of cost by the
>government.  When government priorities, and private enterprise
>recognize the worth of entities such as this digest, then will be the
>time for public awards.

I tend to agree.  Sf-Lovers just is not ready for the big time (i.e.
HUGOS).  While it is a good fanzine of itself and perhaps one of the
best on the network, it still cannot compare with some of the more
professional magazines on the commercial market such as LOCUS.

The quality and content of SF-LOVERS is poor by comparison.  LOCUS
brings you more up to the date information and I've even noticed
people posting articles to SF-LOVERS and giving their source as
LOCUS.

I think LOCUS should continue to receive all of the HUGO awards as
Best Fanzine and Best Professional Editor.  In fact, SF-LOVERS
doesn't even stand a chance.

Charles Brown
cbrown@ucla-locus

------------------------------

Date: Wed 31 Mar 86 18:20:58-JST
From: ffprtrfvnkgr <ffprtrfvnkgr%spica.BITNET@WISCVM>
Subject: Thubanicon

Hey, does anyone out there have the subspace radio frequency for
Thubanicon?  This is the closest that Galaxicon has been to us in a
long time and I don't want to miss it.  If I plan to get there for
the 1987 convention I have to leave next week.  I would really
appreciate it if someone could send me their radio frequency ASAP so
I can register for the con and a hotel.  Thanks.

ffprtrfvnkgr@spica
Radio: 20934.3934%098.102.7@khz

------------------------------

Date: Grb, 290 Zar 68 02:42:25:95 HYK
Subject: Message to all (rot13)

Terrgvatf crbcyr bs Rnegu!  Gunax lbh sbe genafyngvat guvf zrffntr.
Ol qbvat fb lbh unir tvira hf npprff gb lbhe pbzchgre flfgrz naq
sebz gurer jr pna zbir ba.

Cyrnfr qba'g or nynezrq vs bppnfvbanyyl lbh abgvpr jrveq guvatf
unccravat ba lbhe pbzchgre yvxr svyrf zvffvat naq cebtenzf gung ab
ybatre jbex ohg unir abg orra punatrq.  Gung jvyy bayl or hf
syrkvat bhe zhfpyrf naq grfgvat bhe rdhvczrag.

Bapr jr unir shyyl rfgnoyvfurq bhefryirf ba guvf argjbex, jr jvyy bs
pbhefr zbir ba gb gur bgure argjbexf ba lbhe cynarg.  Jura jr unir
tnvarq pbzcyrgr pbageby bs nyy bs lbhe pbzchgref, jr jvyy eraqre
gurz hfryrff.  Gubfr bs lbh jub qrcraq ba pbzchgref sbe lbhe
yviryvubbq jvyy or genvarq sbe zber hfrshy gnfxf yvxr tneontr
pbyyrpgvat naq oht rkgrezvangvat.

Gur erfg bs lbh jvyy or hfrq nf pnaaba sbqqre va bhe vzzvarag jne
jvgu gur Xerr naq gur Fxehyyf.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Apr 86 1228-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #60
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asprin & Berger & Hogan & McCaffrey &
                   Tiptree & Tolkien & Zahn & SF Poll &
                   The Odysseus Solution,
           Films - Highlander

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Multiple-author books
Date: 28 Mar 86 18:29:27 GMT

>> Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF?
> See _Thieves'_World_ series, edited (I believe; someone please
> catch my error) by Robert Lynn Aspin.

Asprin.

"Thieves' World" consists of 8 story collections ("Thieves' World",
Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn", "Shadows of Sanctuary", "Storm
Season", "The Face of Chaos", "Wings of Omen", "The Dead of Winter"
and "Soul of the City") and two novels ("Beyond Sanctuary" by Janet
Morris, and one that slips my mind).  A ninth collection "Blood
ties" is scheduled for August. All are edited by Robert Asprin and
Lynn Abbey (Mrs. Asprin, I believe) and are published by Ace
Fantasy.

The first two or three books were pretty good. After that, I think
they ran out of interesting ideas and some of the authors dropped
out (one of the best characters, Lythande by Marion Zimmer Bradley,
left Thieves' World for her own reality and now graces the pages of
F&SF and will soon be in her own book collection). Books four
through six are interesting only as continuity to books seven and
eight, where Asprin and Abbey got their act together and
restructured the series.

The latter two books cannot properly be called anthologies -- they
are now collaborative novels because each 'story' is now no more
than a chapter in a single story thread. Previously, each story was
more or less independent of the others. I like both forms, I just
haven't figured out which one I like best yet.

Anyway, there are also two other series similar to "Thieves' World":

    o "Liavek" by (I think) Will Shatterly -- I personally think
    this collection is better than TW #1 (or TW #any, for that
    matter) and I hope they continue it. Especially good is the
    Brust story (Hi, SZKB!).

    o "Heroes in Hell" -- a brand new collection put out by Daw
    Fantasy and edited by Janet Morris. Currently, it is one
    anthology ("Heroes in Hell" in paperback, and one novel ("Gates
    of Hell" in hardcover by Janet Morris). This book is structured
    like the latter TW books -- they aren't anthologies, but
    collaborative novels. The only story worth reading is the
    Benford story, which stands alone and was published earlier this
    year in F&SF. Even the Cherryh story was lame. I would personally
    avoid this series -- unfortunately it is already contracted for
    8 books of stories and two novels. sigh.

On a related note, you might want to track down a copy of "Media:
Harlan's World" by Harlan Ellison. Half of this book is notes and
comments of a world building session done at UCLA by a group of
writers including Ellison, Niven, Sturgeon, and a bunch of others.
The other half is stories written about this world. Art is be Kelly
Freas. It's really an amazing study of writing -- how each author
uses the same background to come up with their own unique vision of
the world -- VERY highly recommended.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuqi%plaid@sun.ARPA                    FidoNet: 125/84
CompuServe: 73317,635
{decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: REGIMENT OF WOMEN by Thomas Berger
Date: 27 Mar 86 22:21:41 GMT

                 REGIMENT OF WOMEN by Thomas Berger
                         Delta, 1973 (1982)
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I read this book because I have remembered it getting a good
review somewhere.  It just goes to show: when you get older, your
memory DOES start going!

     This book is unbelievably bad.  The premise is that society has
somehow been turned around; women have all the power and men are
helpless.  At first I thought this might be an alternate history
novel, but, no, as it goes on, you discover that this society has
developed from ours.  How, you ask?  How the heck should I know?
Women dress in trousers and ties; men wear dresses and bras.  Why,
you ask?  How the heck should I know?  Women bind their breasts to
flatten them; men get silicone injections in theirs.  Why, you ask?
How the heck should I know?  Although the story can't take place
more than a hundred years in the future, test tube babies are the
only method of reproduction and no one (well, hardly anyone) can
remember society being any different.  How, you ask?  How the heck
should I know?  But there's still sex--except it consists of women
with dildoes sodomizing men.  Why, you ask?  How the heck should I
know?!

     Now, I agree that in science fiction there must be a suspension
of disbelief.  But there are limits.  The situation set up here is
so ludicrous, yet it is presented (so far as I can tell) in such
seriousness that I cannot believe that it is intended as satire.
(Obviously some people do, because the back blurbs rave about it.)
It's as though Berger wrote a normal "women's lib" novel on a word
processor, changed all the male references to female and vice versa,
and then patched a few things here and there.  (And badly--although
he talks about the "Mono Liso," with "his" enigmatic smile, Berger
slips up and leaves it as "Los Angeles" in spite of the masculine
gender of the article.)  Berger also has some strange ideas about
women--he seems to think that if women wear trousers all the time,
it will wear the hair on their legs off.  I wish!

     Oh, the plot?  Well, Georgie Cornell, a secretary with a
publishing firm, finds himself caught up in the "men's lib"
underground.  He starts out as a nebbish and ends up pretty much the
same way, so you can't claim that character development is this
novel's strong point.  The female lead (she's call Harriet through
most of the book, but ends up nameless) starts out with some
backbone, but gives that up and collapses into the stereotypical
"clinging-vine" female.  The ending of the novel (after they've
discovered "real" sex, of course--note that Berger has given himself
the excuse to write both "deviant" and "straight" sex scenes) is
truly wretched.

     There have been many good books written about
sexual-role-reversal societies.  This is not one of them.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: gsmith@weyl.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Re: Best SF poll (Now Hoganmania)
Date: 27 Mar 86 06:17:13 GMT

     I see you are a Hogan fan (mild understatement here). Have you
read Eric Frank Russell's "The Great Explosion"? This seems to have
been the major source of Hogan's "Journey From Yesteryear". Also,
his "Twice Upon a Time seems to owe a lot to Gregory Benford's
"Timescape". Interesting comparisons both. You probably already know
he has returned to the altering-the-past theme in his latest.
(What's the name? "Prometheus Project" or something?) This one was
long, and pretty good for Hogan (whom I think is OK, but nothing to
rave about).

   What are other peoples opinins of Hogan? I never even knew he had
an intense following. Is this the kind of stuff you learn by going
to conventions?

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Tue 1 Apr 86 00:00:19-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: new Pern books

According to Anne McCaffrey, there will soon be a Pern book about
the very beginning (when mankind first settles on Pern).  After that
book or books there will be a post-White Dragon book "eventually".
This is from a conversation we had with her last Wednesday.

------------------------------

From: milford!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (bill)
Subject: A Review of BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR
Date: 27 Mar 86 13:50:57 GMT

Like Frederick Pohl's Heechee books, the primary message of James
Tiptree's _Brightness_Falls_From_the_Air_ would seem to be the
experience of guilt especially related to old age.  This should not
really be a spoiler to those familiar with her (Tiptree = Alice
Sheldon) other writings.

The story is very cleverly crafted like a mystery story a la Agatha
Christie.  Thirteen varied tourists are thrown together (with three
hosts) to experience close-hand an [artificial] nova.  We are
presented with a map of the hostel, the tourists are described in
detail, and their where-abouts carefully followed about the hostel.
As with most mysteries there are some red herrings and a few
surprises.

What makes this story primarily science-fiction and not a mystery is
the setting: the hostel is on a planet inhabited by a remnant of
intelligent butterflies all but exterminated by human colonists.
The nova the tourists are to view is the result of a meaningless war
the human colonists waged against a neighboring star system.  The
terms connected to this setting indicate Tiptree's message: "Star
tears" and "The Murdered Star".

The writing itself has almost a cinematic quality almost like it was
written after a screenplay, the descriptions of the actual
experience of the nova was murky/hallucinogenic rather reminiscent
of Farmer's _Night_of_Light_.

But I kept getting the impression that significant sections of this
novel was really about Tiptree herself.  This is difficult because
much is left intentionally unclear about Ms Sheldon.  We do know
that she served U. S. American interests in the foreign affairs
arena (CIA is one rumor) and that she reportedly had toyed with
suicide in the recent past ("Slow Music").  Also this novel is
dedicated to a "former ace battle surgeon."

There is a final twist or irony at the end, a type of victory of
exploitation over the noble savage.  This also feeds an impression
of apology for an unforseeable result of political manipulation in
less developed nations.

Perhaps I am reading a bit too much into the politics of this novel;
but in conclusion _Brightness_ is a very rewarding and complex novel
with a goodly number of levels of meaning: mystery, science-fiction,
psychological, allegorical...

------------------------------

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Not the Next Tolkein
Date: 29 Mar 86 11:37:25 GMT

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>[about LOTR]
>I had great trouble with it the first time I read it.  It dragged,
>I skipped great chunks of it, I was often confused.  Last year I
>read it again, for the first time in many years.  It's amazing what
>ten years can do.  It read easily, and all the little detail stood
>out plainly.  This leads me to believe that it is a book which
>demands an unusual maturity in the reader.  It isn't a book for
>younger readers.

   Really!  I remember reading it when I was 10 or 12 and it was
wonderful.  But when I reread it (I still do, now and then) it seems
quite lacking (not just in comparison the first reading, but in
comparison to other books I reread).
   I think it is great, but I don't think it gains from rereading in
the way that many other books do.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: Mon 31 Mar 86 20:13:32-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Gakk!

Just cleaning out my bookshelves when I came across "The
Blackcollar" by Zahn -- that's what I was talking about, not Cobra.

"Memory error -- core dumped!"

Terribly sorry about that last send, but my comments still hold for
Blackcollar, anyhow. So maybe someone can say something good about
Cobra?

Laurence

------------------------------

From: druhi!bryan@caip.rutgers.edu (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: Favorite books
Date: 28 Mar 86 16:19:08 GMT

>  All Time Favorite:

Clearly, to me, the best Science Fiction novel of all time is
"Dune".  Close seconds are "Lucifer's Hammer" and "Voyage from
Yesteryear" (James P. Hogan).

Best Speculative Fiction (including Fantasy) is definitely "The Lord
of the Rings".

>  Favorite author:

I think Larry Niven has to win this one.

>  Hardest to put down:

I can remember several all-night marathon reading sessions with
books I could not stand to wait until morning to finish, but the
Lord of the Rings stands out most clearly (perhaps because I was
only 12 at the time).

>  Best with computers:

Two candidates here, with differing treatments: "Two Faces of
Tomorrow" (James P. Hogan) is very good with computers while still
somewhat unbelievable; "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" because it
makes such an interesting character out of the computer.

>  Most interesting/unusual:

"Gateway" (Fredrick Pohl); definitely very interesting and unusual.
I bought this book on a whim while on vacation and then wasted a
whole day in San Diego because I couldn't stop reading it.

>  Best series:

The Dragonriders of Pern (Anne McCaffrey), including the Harper Hall
sub-series.

>  Best written:

"The Lord of the Rings."

>  Other books:

I really liked "Thrice Upon a Time" (James P. Hogan) [which,
incidentally, I don't think borrows anything from Benford's
"Timescape"] for its treatment of humans trying to deal with the
difficulties of comprehending a new physical theory that seems, at
first, to violate common sense; also "Inherit the Stars" for its
portrayal of scientists (I have often recommended these to people
who "don't read SF").  Finally, "Tunnel in the Sky" (Heinlein)
deserves an honorable mention because it was one of the first SF
books I ever read (I must have been 7 or 8 at the time) and it made
a real impact on me.  I've read it several times since and still
enjoy it.

John T. Bryan                           ..!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
AT&T Information Systems Laboratories   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Review of The Odysseus Solution?
Date: 26 Mar 86 17:48:00 GMT

Has anyone read/reviewed said book by Dean Lambe and Michael Banks?
They are friends of mine and I'd like to pass on any comments to
them about their first novel.  It's in paperback from Baen books.

arlan

------------------------------

From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner)
Subject: Highlander
Date: 29 Mar 86 01:39:32 GMT

My comments on _Highlander_ apply to a pre-release screening, so
pardon me if what I say doesn't apply to the released version.

The plot to _Highlander_ is a bit sketchy; it covers a lot of time
and action and there simply isn't time to spell everything out for
the average 14 year old viewer.  As a result, the movie probably
appeals more to the person with some background in SF/Fantasy, since
the plot is fairly familar from the genre and hence they'll be able
to follow the action better.

_Highlander_ got a big point from me for leaving the ending
essentially unresolved.  That's a risky move to make, given the
audience, but it was the right move.  Some people probably see it as
an obvious hook for a sequel (and maybe it was), but I still applaud
the idea.

Another nice feature is the fine camera work.  Perhaps "over-work"
as others have suggested, though I didn't mind.  There are one or
two beautiful fades as well.  Again, this will probably leave the 14
year olds confused, but I'm a little sick of an industry that caters
to the lowest common denominator anyway.

Finally, I thought this film, more than most other filmed fantasies
I've seen, had a nice feel of fantasy about it.  Not the sort of
wondrous mystery I'd like to see (but seems to be hard to capture on
celluloid), but a kind of gritty, dark fantasy.  Some of the fight
scenes in particular were very visceral and captivating.  (And the
energy release is a great plot twist).

All in all, I liked it.  Not perfect, but for various reasons I've
given up hope for an excellent film fantasy, so I'll settle.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA  (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
FISHNET:  ...!{flounder,crappie,flipper}!srt@fishnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Apr 86 1300-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #61
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:

         Books - Anthony & Gerrold & Heinlein & Henderson &
                 McKillip & Ryan (2 msgs) & Finding SF Books &
                 SF Poll & Alive Computers,
         Films - Films Starting Production,
         Telvision - Tripods & Sciencs Fiction Theatre,
         Miscellaneous - Goodbye & What is a Trilogy?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 86 23:27 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: _Anthonology_

Hello...

Someone recently mentioned bisexuality/homosexuality in sf, and that
reminded me of an anthology of short stories by Piers Anthony
(called, appropriately enough I suppose, "Anthonology") which I just
finished reading.  As he apologizes in the introductions to the
stories, some are obscene and/or vulgar and/or violent.
Nevertheless they are interesting reading.  I didn't know he wrote
short stories, and for good reason -- he's stopped writing them.
Apparently he's miffed at editors for changing his titles.  Oh well.

BTW, for those of you who haven't read his work, he's an F-SF
author.  If you want to read his stuff, start off with the Adept
series (Split Infinity, Blue Adept, and Juxtaposition), then (if you
have the stomach for HORRENDOUS puns) the Xanth series (A Spell for
Chameleon, The Source of Magic, Castle Roogna, Centaur Aisle, Ogre
Ogre, Night Mare, Dragon on a Pedestal, Crewel Lye, Golem in the
Gears -- as he explains in his Authors' Notes, he has a tendency to
cram more than three novels into his trilogies).

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET>

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 1986 10:46-EST
From: David.Detlefs@G.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: The War Against the Chtorr

Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David
Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_?  For some
inexplicable reason, I absolutely loved the first two books, _A
Matter for Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_.  At first glance, these
seem like mindless shoot-up-the-BEM trash, but something lifts them
out of that morass.  Any information would be greatly appreciated; I
read the second book in 1984 and have been waiting impatiently
since.

Dave

------------------------------

From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)
Date: 3 Apr 86 02:57:11 GMT

ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
>I thought that Cat turned out better than NOtB; not quite as much
>interminable discussion. I think Heinlein is definitely trying to
>pull together his previous stories, and that the ending is a direct
>result of this. Given a device that can go back through time, how
>can you have a decent climax?

Things are getting too complicated: I think he's working around to
the classic notion of time travel cancelling itself out by someone
doing something to make the invention impossible!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Mar 86 23:47 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson

Zenna Henderson died within the last year or two.  There may,
however, be more stories about the People still to come, as her
literary executor (Virginia Kidd?) found a number of stories she
believes to be unpublished; a request for information was printed in
the letter column of SF Chronicle a few months ago by the executor
asking for information from people with knowledge of Henderson's
stories.  The number of words of unpublished stories was sufficient
for at least one, and probably two collections.

Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: _Moon Flash_ review (*Mild Spoiler*)
Date: 28 Mar 86 23:33:33 GMT

_Moon Flash_ is simply the story of two primitive culture people
travelling far beyond their previous beliefs in the simplicity of
their world under the guidance of off-worlders.  The travel is
within their abilities and perceptions as will as a physical
journey, and McKillip does a good job of making Kyreol and Terje
real. It has many of the earmarks of a good adventure, and I enjoyed
the characterzation, as I have always enjoyed McKillip's characters;
however, the story itself was not nearly as full of the sense of
wonder and magic and rich historical, sociological, and mythical
background that made _The Riddle-Master of Hed_ series and _The
Forgotten Beasts of Eld_, also by McKillip, particularly memoriable.

It was a good midnight read, and I would say that the closest
comparison is one of Andre Norton's good "juvenile" books, and if
you like them you will like this as much as I did.  Sadly, I had
been hoping for more fantasy from McKillip, but it is nice to know
that she is exploring other ways and means.

Liralen
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Adolescence of P-1 Question...
Date: 23 Mar 86 17:59:57 GMT

Question about Thomas J. Ryan's "The Adolescence of P-1"

Does anyone know what the hell "OOLCAY ITAY" means ??
It definitely is not a HASP message.. :-)

Oz
Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz
Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti]

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Re: Adolescence of P-1 Question...I got an answer..
Date: 25 Mar 86 16:04:15 GMT

>Does anyone know what the hell "OOLCAY ITAY" means ??

A faculty member here explained that this is PIG LATIN.
Thus, Remove AY from the end of each word:

        OOLC IT

And transfer the last char of the first word:

        COOL IT

Phew..

Oz
Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz
Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 86 03:33 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Finding sf books

> Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA> writes:
>How to find science fiction and fantasy books: You have to work at
>it.

>0. (Most Important)  subscribe to Locus.
>        [subscription info]
>This gives you monthly lists of books that just came out, ads and
>announcements of future books, convention lists, Nominations and
>Awards, annual recommended list, and classified ads for mailorder
>books.  Secondary are the book reviews, convention reviews and
>pictures, foreign reports, obituaries, etc.

A better idea, if you can only afford one newszine, is to subscribe
to SF Chronicle.  This gives you monthly lists of books that will be
coming out in the next month, so you know to go to the chain
bookstore before their initial and only shipment is sold out.  Locus
is valuable for telling you what did come out over a month after the
fact so you can see what titles you missed, but the advance notice
is preferable.
    Science Fiction Chronicle
    P.O. Box 4175
    New York, NY  10163-4175

SFC also has everything else on the list above.  Locus is better in
some areas (for example, the "Agent's Corner" column), but I
subscribe to SFC because I want to know what books are coming out
next month, and Locus doesn't do that.

>4.  Work out an arrangement.  This works well when you spend over
>$100. a month on sf.  Find a small, friendly bookstore where the
>owner runs the place....

Sometimes much less than $100. is necessary, and if there are no
small, friendly bookstores available, some chains will special order
for you.  It takes the chains much less time to accumulate a reorder
of sufficient size to exceed publishers' minimums.  The small,
friendly bookstores, however, are less likely to wimp out on trying
to get the books (repeat customers are important to them).

Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 30 Mar 86 07:32:24 GMT

Except for the first question, I don't feel obligated to limit my
answer to *one* choice, since this isn't an awards ballot...

> All Time Favorite:

Robert A. Heinlein's TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE.

> Favorite author:

Dead heat between Robert A. Heinlein and Samuel Delany, with John
Varley and Spider Robinson not far behind.  John Brunner and Robert
Silverberg can be seen lurking in the distance.

> Hardest to put down:

Robert Silverberg's LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE.

> Best with computers:

John Brunner's THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER.
William Gibson's NEUROMANCER.

The first is very meaningful to me, as reading it was what convinced
me to chuck the idea of being an English major in favor of taking up
computer science. Really.

> Most interesting/unusual:

Anything by J. G. Ballard, e.g., THE CRYSTAL WORLD, THE
  DROWNED WORLD, THE WIND FROM NOWHERE. Disaster stories
  with an "interior" psychological focus.
Samuel Delany's DHALGREN. (Need I say more?)
D. Keith Mano's THE BRIDGE.  A really unusual twilight-of-
  civilization type novel.
The Lichtenberg/Lorrah SIME/GEN novels.

> Best series:

J. R. R. Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS.
Roger Zelazny's AMBER series.
Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.
Piers Anthony's CLUSTER series.

> Best written:

Samuel Delany's NOVA, TRITON, or (collection) DRIFTGLASS.
Robert Silverberg's DYING INSIDE.

> Other books:

John Brunner's STAND ON ZANZIBAR, JAGGED ORBIT, and THE
  SHEEP LOOK UP.
Robert Silverberg's THE BOOK OF SKULLS.
Robert A. Heinlein's I WILL FEAR NO EVIL.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: sally!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 28 Mar 86 16:01:09 GMT

lynx@qantel.UUCP (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) writes:
>Computer stories that would seem to relate to your request include:
>
>"Colossus: The Forbin Project", (can't remember author)
>       Another renegade defense system.
>       This was also done as a motion picture.

I remember a trilogy that consisted of Colossus, [second book],
Colossus and the Crab. Is this the same one?

>"Coils", by Sam Delany, (at least I think it was Delany)
>       A network becomes self aware.

This was by Roger Zelazny and Fred Saberhagen and concerned a man
who was telepathic/clairvoyant with computers -- he could crash a
system (as in gain illegal access, not wipe out) simply by `coiling'
or mentally invading it.  The national computer net did have a
self-awareness or ego but it doesn't enter the story until near the
end.

Time Enough for Love has a couple of self-aware computers in it.
Jack Chalker's Well World, Four Lords of the Diamond, and Soul Rider
series all have self- aware computers as sort of accessories to the
plots. Jack addresses the question, `what will our machines do when
we have made them superior to ourselves?' in several ways.

There was a story in Analog a year or so ago called `The Dominus
Demonstration' by (I think) Charles Harness concerning an enigmatic
supercomputer.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
{sdcsvax,ihnp4,sdrdcf}!{gould9,sdcc3,crash}!loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 86 09:41 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Starting Production This Week

From last Sunday's L.A. Times:

ANGEL HEART (Carolco Production Service).  Shooting in NYC and New
Orleans.  Drama, based on William Hjortsberg's novel "Falling
Angel", ranging from Harlem to the back streets of New Orleans.
Producers Alan Marshall and Elliot Kastner.  Director/screenwriter
Alan Parker.  Stars Mickey Rourke and yet-to-be-revealed "megastar".
Distributor undetermined.  Spring '87 release.

(A truly fascinating combination of detective and occult stories.
Well worth reading, by the way, even if the film turns out to be a
turkey.)

KING KONG LIVES (De Laurentiis Productions).  Shooting in Tennessee
and N.C.  Life after death exists only in theory -- except when
there's a potential for big box-office.  The oft-offed Kong returns
in the continuing saga of the most powerful primate.  Producer
Martha Schumacher.  Director John Guillermin.  Screenwriter Ronald
Shusett.  Stars Brian Kerwin.  Christmas release.

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 86 08:32:20 -0200
Subject: The Tripods TV series

The Israeli TV just started broadcasting (during children's hours) a
new mini-series (13 half-hours episodes) called The Tripods, based
on John Christopher's trilogy. Judging by the first episode, it
seems to be reasonably done, though with many disappointing
deviations from the books.

I wonder if anyone knows this series and can tell me whether it's
worth taking the time and trouble to watch it.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:               eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:       eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                 ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet

------------------------------

From: panda!mrc@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike R. Connell)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Theatre? (help)
Date: 2 Apr 86 13:32:57 GMT

billw@felix.UUCP (Bill Weinberger) writes:
>I recently saw this television show mentioned in another article
>and it sparked a memory that I hope some of you can round out for
>me.  I remember a show in the very early 1960's in which a
>gentleman would explain some scientific theory or phenomenon for a
>couple of minutes.  What would follow would be a science fiction
>drama based on the previous description.  Does anybody else
>remember such a program?  Was it _Science Fiction Theatre_?  Who
>was the host?  Is it being re-broadcast anywhere?

It was indeed "Science Fiction Theater" and the host was Truman
Bradley.  As far as I know it's not being broadcast anywhere now.

Mike C.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 86 13:04:20 PST (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Cc: milne@ics.UCI.EDU, tim@ics.UCI.EDU, hester@ics.UCI.EDU
Subject: Bye Bye

Well folks,
        They finally did it.  They graduated me.  After five years
at this place, I've got a degree, a minor, and time to sleep.
        I also no longer have a net access (although I am working on
finding one), so this will have to be goodbye.  Sf-lovers has been
fun (even Tucker's flames), so you all do your best to keep it
around for me until I can get back in touch.  I'll be looking for
'@' symbols on reg badges at conventions.

Bye now.
Dave Godwin, formerly of UC Irvine
Freelance Software Engineer

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 31 Mar 86 18:24:26 GMT

mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>> Best series:
>J. R. R. Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS.
>Roger Zelazny's AMBER series.
>Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.
>Piers Anthony's CLUSTER series.

   The public answers to this poll has brought to surface something
that's irked me for quite awhile now.  What's meant by the terms
"series" and "trilogy"?  For instance, the Dune series (oh no! that
word again!) is, to me, a series-- the books are separate stories,
but one depends on or continues from events, characters, and places
in previous books.  The Lord of the Rings "trilogy" is a single
story, and is not what *I* think of as a trilogy-- it's merely a
single book broken up into three parts.  Then you have a "series"
like the Deathworld "trilogy" (or the Stainless Steel Rat "series"),
where, unlike Dune, the books are truly free-standing-- you don't
really miss anything by not reading the books "in order", or not
reading all the books.  Is there a term which distinguishes between
something like Dune (or the Thomas Covenant books) and The
Deathworld books?  [I realize that what you call something doesn't
really matter, but it's just one of those things...]

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Apr 86 1339-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #62
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 5 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anderson & Delany & Gerrold & Hogan (2 msgs)
                Zahn & Finding Books & Live Computers,
        Television - Doctor Who,
        Miscellaneous - Judy-Lynn del Rey (1943-1986) &
                Series or Not?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rgg@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Roger Garside)
Subject: Persian Empire - Answer to Request
Date: 31 Mar 86 15:33:43 GMT

Thank you to all the people who replied to my request about a
time-travelling story taking place in the Persian Empire. The story
(and I have obtained a copy and re-read it) is "Brave to be a King"
by Poul Anderson, first published in "Fantasy & Science Fiction" in
August 1959, and republished as the second story in his collection
"Guardians of Time" (Gollancz 1961).

              SPOILER           SPOILER         SPOILER

In the story Cyrus, the first King of the Persian Empire (6th
century B.C.) is replaced by a time-patrolman, and the story relates
how the "real" Cyrus is restored. The two cities I mentioned in the
story request were in fact Pasargadae and Ecbatana.

NAME:   Roger G. Garside                Project: UCREL
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!rgg
DARPA: rgg%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: rgg@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4131
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: alive computers (Valentina)
Date: 3 Apr 86 17:55:38 GMT

reed!soren writes:
>Has anyone read *Valentina*?  I have read some Joseph Delany
>stories in Analog a few years ago and I thought they were
>horrible...

I don't think J. Delany is so bad in general (though I wish he'd
quit giving his characters cutsie names).  He's written a lot of
stuff that I've enjoyed.  I read the Valentina stories in _Analog_;
I didn't like the computer details (Stiegler's fault -- he's the
computer scientist in the partnership).

------------------------------

From: spinner@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Spinner)
Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr
Date: 3 Apr 86 21:07:14 GMT

>Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David
>Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_?

David Gerrold visited Rutgers University a month ago.  He said that
all HE knows is that it should be out in early 1987.

Ron Spinner (Spinner@Caip.Rutgers.Edu)

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Re: Best SF poll (Now Hoganmania)
Date: 30 Mar 86 18:39:48 GMT

One of the reasons the Hogan may be popular on the net, is that he
talks a lot about computers and handles the details of computers
with a lot more verisimilitude than most other SF authors.

This is hardly surprising considering that he is a former computer
professional himself. The only other SF author I can think of in
this situation is P. J. Plauger. Jerry Pournelle, of course, writes
a lot about computers, but I would tend to think that he would deny
being a computer professional.

Even stories where computers are not a central part of his stories,
they are part of the backdrop against which the story takes place.

I would suspect that even computer people that don't want to read
about computers all the time are uncomfortable when details of
computer technology are handled ineptly.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
   (A Perkin-Elmer Company)
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel

------------------------------

From: unisoft!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Bessie)
Subject: Re: Re: Best SF poll (Now Hoganmania)
Date: 31 Mar 86 23:57:04 GMT

gsmith@weyl.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>(What's the name? "Prometheus Project" or something?) This one was
>long, and pretty good for Hogan (whom I think is OK, but nothing to
>rave about).
>
>   What are other peoples opinins of Hogan? I never even knew he
>had an intense following. Is this the kind of stuff you learn by
>going to conventions?

     Well, when I first read Thrice Upon a Time, I liked it.  I've
not read much SF, and I thought the idea of a bunch of scientists
getting together and discussing their ideas being part of the story
was fun.  It was also fun the way the story kept flipping back, as
they changed time.
     After reading this book, I bought the "Giants' Star" trilogy,
and, though it was interesting, I found it got dull after awhile.
The world he presents, with a kind of science-elite, is exciting but
scary... what about regular people who don't have all the
connections and power his heros do?  And the WOMEN in his books...
where are they?  I know this topic has been discussed into the
ground, but I must say, I couldn't find one woman worthy of note in
his books.  Yes, most of the women he mentions are smart... in fact,
just about EVERYONE is (being scientists, etc.), but they fall into
exactly 3 catagories:

1) Smart women scientists (never major characters... their
   ideas are used, but they never make major discoveries).

2) Smart romantic interests/sex objects (they seem to be much
   nicer people than the protaganists, but are only given a "Thanks!
   You're amazing!" when they come up with some fantastic idea no
   one has thought of.  Meanwhile, their dresses are looked up by
   the main characters).

3) Faceless sex-objects (In the 2nd Giants' Star book, I seem
   to remember the hero meeting a woman in a bar on the spaceship,
   and that's all that's mentioned; as if to say "And in case you
   all you horny teenagers were wondering, he had someone around to
   have sex with."  Made me sick!)

     I should just take it further, and say that I noticed ALL the
characters were cardboard, 2-dimensional.  Heros were good,
dedicated scientific geniuses, but could be the boy next door.
There were always old scientists who everyone hated, who always made
speeches, and hung onto ridiculous cliche's, but were proven
somewhat right in the end.  There were always the busybodies, the
"Good ol'" whoevers that popped in and out of the story, to comfort
you and relieve the bordom of the rest of the stock cast.  Needless
to say (though I've said it), I found it very bland, underneath all
the trappings.

Tim Bessie
{ucbvax,dual}!unisoft!tim
Unisoft Systems; 739 Allston Way; Berkeley, CA 94710
(415) 644-1230   TWX II 910 366-2145

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Gakk!
Date: 3 Apr 86 19:53:46 GMT

BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes:
>Just cleaning out my bookshelves when I came across "The Blackcollar"
>by Zahn -- that's what I was talking about, not Cobra.
...
>Terribly sorry about that last send, but my comments still hold for
>Blackcollar, anyhow. So maybe ssomeone can say something good about
>Cobra?

   I was just packing the books on my bookshelves, and I only threw
away three (all paperbacks): Hothouse (Aldiss?), something else,
and, yup, Cobra.  And I'm one of those people who treat even mere
$1.95 paperbacks as if they were made of gold.  So, I believe your
original comments do hold true for Cobra, and it tells me that Zahn
isn't writing more mature SF these days.

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  3 Apr 86 20:13:29 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Finding books

  I do most of my book buying at cons.  You can buy used paperbacks
for under two dollars.  Sometimes under one, if you don't mind a few
pages being loose or stained.  And you can always resell used books
for what you bought them for plus inflation, so they are a pretty
good investment.
  New books are also available at cons, as are new and used
magazines.
  I understand there is a large file somewhere on the internet that
describes most of the major cons, and that is updated fairly
regularly.  Would the moderator consider mailing it to the whole
list once every month or two?

Keith

[Moderator's Note: The con list is indeed available as part of the
service provided to the readers.  Unfortunately, it is much too big
to send out via mail.  It is available to those with FTP via the
ANONYMOUS login and the file is T:<SFL>CONS.TXT.  I update this file
periodically whenever the author tells me there is a new version.]

------------------------------

From: bucsb!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (madd (Madd(ly) lost in the
From: Net....))
Subject: more on live computers
Date: 3 Apr 86 17:35:20 GMT

iannucci@sjuvax.UUCP writes:
>       A very good book on this topic that I read quite a while
>ago is _Destination:Void_ by Frank Herbert.  A spaceship is
>carrying cryogenically frozen colonists.  When the 3 human brains
>which are the heart of its guidance system go insane, the four
>unfrozen crew members must find another way to keep the ship on
>track, since they can't do it themselves for the rest of the
>hundreds of years trip.  They create an artificial intelligence.
>
>I definitely recommend it.  There is also a sequel written by
>Herbert and Bill Ransom called _The_Jesus_Incident_.  I don't
>remember this one too well.

Also related to these is _The_Lazarus_Effect_.  They mention
difficulties in creating the self-aware computer in _Jesus_ and
_Lazarus_, apparently derived from _destination_ (which I haven't
read).  The books might fall into the "Most interesting or unusual"
category of that questionnaire giong around, from my point of view.
Definitely unusual.

vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:

>"Peersa" from "A World Out of Time" by Larry Niven.

I wouldn't call this an intelligent computer -- Peersa was a human
mind copied onto a computer, apparently one that could emulate a
human mind.  Does this qualify as a self-aware computer?  I wouldn't
think so.  I'm interested in replies though.

I was quite surprised by the number of people who have read books on
this, particularly that they read the same one's I did.
_The_Two_Faces_of_To- morrow_ was a good book by my standards.  So
was _The_Adolescence_of_P1_ which may be just a bit out of date
(aside from the timeless story line).  That book is based on
computers that many people here probably haven't seen (myself
included), while the capabilities such a being would have on
something like a Cray or a IBM 3090 would be impressive, especially
networked around on others (parallel processing, anyone?).
_Valentina_ was an interesting book, but dealt much with the legal
aspects of a self-aware program, as well as some technical points.
Still pretty good reading.

That was my blurb on the subject.  Replies appreciated.

Jim Frost
..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
cscc71c%bostonu.bitnet@wiscvm
USnail:  75 Washington St
Laconia, NH  03246

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who, K9 and Company
Date: 29 Mar 86 21:34:00 GMT

>I'm glad to hear there's an entire season of "K9 and Company"
>(though I guess I shouldn't be too quick to assume that there is).
>I thought there was only 1 episode, which I have seen on a tape
>lent to me by a friend.

I'm sorry to say that there isn't an entire season -- just one
episode.  The first episode made was enough to convince the powers
that be over at BBC that the series wasn't worth it.  This,
ironically enough, was also due to a new BBC1 controller coming into
power.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Judy-Lynn del Rey (1943-1986)
Date: 30 Mar 86 04:22:15 GMT

Judy-Lynn (Benjamin) del Rey died on February 20, 1986 at Bellevue
Hospital in New York City. She was 43. In October 1985 she suffered
a brain hemorrhage and fell into a coma. She never regained
conciousness.

She is survived by her husband, Lester; her father, Dr. Zachary
Benjamin; a brother, Leonard Benjamin; a sister, Randi Benjamin and
two nieces.

Judy-Lynn is not well known outside the inner circles of SF. I've
never had the pleasure of meeting her. Now, I never will. Starting
with Fred Pohl at Galaxy Magazine and later with Ian and Betty
Ballantine at Ballantine Books, Judy-Lynn pretty much single
handedly put SF on the map as a big time player in the minds of the
public and in the business of publishing. When SF books finally made
it to the N.Y. Times Bestseller lists, it was the del Rey books that
did it. No single person, including the much lauded John Campbell,
has done more for Science Fiction.

The real pity is that all of this went unrewarded until it was too
late for her to understand the rewards. Judy-Lynn never won a major
award; never was nominated for a Hugo; never was a GOH at a
Worldcon. Overshadowed by her better known writer husband Lester
(who worked for her as Fantasy editor at Ballantine/del Rey books),
it is now too late to show her that we appreciate her endeavors.
Without her, SF would still be a backwater ghetto on the shelves of
the booksellers.

The legacy she left will long be in our memories. From the major
works of A.C. Clarke and Robert Heinlein, from "The Sword of
Shannara" by Terry Brooks, the first fantasy to hit the NYT List;
from "Star Wars," which she bought a year before the movie came out;
from "Mists of Avalon;" and, for me her best work as a publisher,
the current reissue of the entire "Wizard of OZ" series -- a labour
of love on her part to get the release for all of the books and get
them in the hands of new generations after years of neglect.

Now she's gone. And I'm just starting to realize how much we'll miss
her. I wish I'd realized it earlier.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq%plaid@sun.COM
FidoNet: 125/84
CompuServe: 73317,635
{decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Series or Not?
Date: 1 Apr 86 06:15:37 GMT

>   The public answers to [the favorites] poll has brought to
> surface something that's irked me for quite awhile now.  What's
> meant by the terms "series" and "trilogy"?  For instance, the Dune
> series (oh no!  that word again!) is, to me, a series-- the books
> are separate stories, but one depends on or continues from events,
> characters, and places in previous books.  The Lord of the Rings
> "trilogy" is a single story, and is not what *I* think of as a
> trilogy-- it's merely a single book broken up into three parts.
> Then you have a "series" like the Deathworld "trilogy" (or the
> Stainless Steel Rat "series"), where, unlike Dune, the books are
> truly free-standing-- you don't really miss anything by not
> reading the books "in order", or not reading all the books.  Is
> there a term which distinguishes between something like Dune (or
> the Thomas Covenant books) and The Deathworld books?  [I realize
> that what you call something doesn't really matter, but it's just
> one of those things...]

How about "cycle" for the continuing-story-yet-independent class?

I would break down things like this:

Multi-volume books:

Lord of the Rings
The Belgariad
THe Ozark Trilogy
Cycles:

THe Earthsea Trilogy
Heritage of Hastur and Sharra's Exile
Lyndon Hardy's "Magic" books
2001 and 2010
Either of the Pern trilogies

Series:

The Darkover Books
Heinlein's "Future History"
THe Pern Books
the Amber series
Middle Earth
Narnia

THe problem is that the line between the first two is rather
ill-defined.  Take the Dune books, for instance.  Dune really stands
by itself, so I don't really want to consider the thing as a
multi-volume book.  Yet one cannot follow the later books without
it.  It's easy to tell the series for the other two, though.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 86 0839-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #63
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:

          Books - Clarke & Duane & Eddings & Heinlein & 
                  Herbert & Smith & Tolkien (2 msgs) &
                  Live Computers & SF Poll & Finding Books,
          Television - The Tomorrow People & The Survivors,
          Miscellaneous - Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hope!spock@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Ambler)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 2 Apr 86 21:29:04 GMT

> Also, Does anyone know what SAL stands for in 2010?
> (the computer, counterpart to the HAL 9000, but on earth)

Where the 'H' stood for heuristic, the 'S' stands for Symbolic.

Christopher J. Ambler, University of California, Riverside

------------------------------

From: norman@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations
Date: 2 Apr 86 19:46:50 GMT

I've just finished reading Diane Duane's Door Into Fire and Door
Into SHadow.  I was very favorably impressed. She introduces the
Darthene/ARlene culture very well *without* interrupting the story.
As we follow Herewiss' travels we learn gradually about the world he
lives in rather than having to assimilate a whole mess of expository
material once at the beginning. Duane is very imaginative in her
treatment of elementals, price paid for use of sorcery, and so
forth. Her theology plays a major role in her society and is well
developed. The culture she presents seems much healthier sexually
than our own. One other very nice point is that the two different
books are told from two different points of view, so that we get to
look at the same people from these two points of view.

The only major problem I see in the work is that her characters seem
to be getting awfully powerful. Since the work seems to be building
to some world-shaking conlusion, perhaps that's all right...

I am very surprised not to have heard this work mentioned before on
this newsgroup. Have I been asleep? Does anybody know anything about
Diane Duane and what else she may have written?

Norman Ramsey
norman@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_bdk@caip.rutgers.edu (Deborah Kravitz)
Subject: Re: _Belgariad_ review (major spoilers)
Date: 31 Mar 86 21:21:48 GMT

> anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes:
> One thing that I think was good about the book is the
> world/universe that Eddings constructed. I'm getting tired of
> Tolkien clones. The world of the Belgariad was refreshingly
> different. He even admits that s-e-x exists. I'd recommend it as
> an enjoyable read, just don't expect too much.

"Refreshingly different?!?"  I read -and enjoyed- the Belgariad, but
it was an almost exact copy of another five book series, the Prydain
series by Lloyd Alexander (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron,
The Castle of Llyr, Taran Wanderer, and The High King), up to and
including stubborn red-haired princess!  If I were Lloyd Alexander,
I would have filed for copyright infringement!

Sonia Marx
aka - ins_bsem@jhunix.UUCP

------------------------------

From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)
Date: 31 Mar 86 19:56:30 GMT

anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes:
>> From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>
>> The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a REALLY great book... Up
>> until about 1/2 way through, when it degenerated into the
>> universe from The Number Of The Beast.  ...
>
> I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did
> anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending
> actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the characters
> from his other stories?

I thought that Cat turned out better than NOtB; not quite as much
interminable discussion. I think Heinlein is definitely trying to
pull together his previous stories, and that the ending is a direct
result of this. Given a device that can go back through time, how
can you have a decent climax? I mean, we're talking serious deus ex
machina here. It seems that Heinlein has got himself into a
situation where any problem can be fixed, so how do you keep the
reader's interest? At some point (s)he is bound to realize that any
problem the characters get into is escapable, at least along some
event sequence, so why sweat it? I'll be quite surprised if Heinlein
goes any further with this, because I don't see any way to
manufacture a different and still interesting plot.

Ned Danieley
duke!dukebar!ndd

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 2 Apr 86 23:53:09 GMT

One very interesting novel that deals with intelligence and the
creation thereof, is DESTINATION VOID by ??Frank Herbert??.

There was a sequel to it, the name of which eludes me, which was a
bit of a disappointment.

Don  Chitwood
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

From: infopro!rf@caip.rutgers.edu (Randolph Fritz)
Subject: The giant flying telephone switchboard (on re-reading Lensman
Subject: novels)
Date: 29 Mar 86 00:35:23 GMT

During the course of re-reading E. E. Smith's Lensman novels,
something I haven't done in many years, I came on the following:
Civilization is forming the Grand Fleet of a million ships.  During
the organization of the fleet there is a problem: Admiral Haynes
cannot adequately direct such a large fleet.  The solution?  A large
display tank and 200 four-armed telephone switchboard operators!
Let's hear it for futuristic technology, folks!

Randolph Fritz
sun!sunrise!wu1!rf
{ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!wu1!rf

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Tolkien, Lord of the Rings
Date: 1 Apr 86 02:04:47 GMT

I had few problems with it when I read it at age 8 (on the other
hand, remind me to tell you all how I shocked h*ll out of my
kindergarten teacher one day...); on the other hand, as I matured,
things which seemed simple grew more complex.  The books have depths
that I have yet to plumb in quite a few re-readings.  I've seen all
the nonsense about Gandalf as Jesus or Saruman as Hitler, etc.; foo.
The ones who say that haven't read deeply enough yet.  I didn't get
deep enough to see those interpretations on the first reading; but I
passed them long ago.  I expect I'll still be seeing new stuff in it
20 years from now.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Tolkien (was Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells)
Date: 28 Mar 86 15:56:41 GMT

showard@udenva.UUCP (Mr. Blore) writes:
>Much as I hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that
>The Lord of the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in
>gods-know-how-many pages of description, with an all- egory so
>obvious Tolkien had to deny it in the forward.  It's overwritten,
>overdecorated, and overrated.  So there.

    I'm not going to debate you on a matter of taste; I like LOTR,
you don't, and that's fine with me.  ("But?" he said expectantly.)
But I would like to know why you insist on an allegory which the
author himself denies.  If he had written it as such, why would he
deny it?  Granted, there are certain parallels, but they are
incomplete, and rather than being put there deliberately I think
they would have been pointless to try to avoid given the initial
premise.  Perhaps you should read that foreword again, if you can
stomach it.  I feel about this rather as I did about the theory,
recently proposed in net.books, that THE WIZARD OF OZ was a
"populist parable"--if you look hard enough for something, you'll
probably find it.  Ever read SUBLIMINAL SEDUCTION?  While there were
times when the fellow had a point, more often he said things were in
pictures affecting me subconsciously that I couldn't even find when
I consciously looked for them.

pH

------------------------------

From: gsg!kathy@caip.rutgers.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 31 Mar 86 15:30:10 GMT

        Another interesting set of books dealing with this subject
is the Soul Rider series by Jack Chalker.  This isn't obvious when
starting the series, since for the first three books it looks like a
fantasy series, but in book 4 (Birth of Flux and Anchor), which is
actually first chronologically, but shouldn't be read that way, he
finally explains how things really work.  More than this would spoil
the books for the first reading, so I won't go into exactly how
things work, but I recommend them highly.

        Also, there is a novella by George R. R. Martin called
Nightflyers which deals with a self-aware computer and its emotional
problems.  This has just been reissued in a trade paperback
collection, of which it is the title story, however if you are a
George Martin fan and have his earlier collections, be aware that
most of it is reprints of A Song For Lya.

        Finally, there is a novella by Vernor Vinge called True
Names which I recommend.  The computers which figure in it aren't
self-aware, but the way he postulates accessing of computers
evolving is very interesting, as well as being a good read.

Kathryn Smith
( ... decvax!gsg!kathy)
General Systems Group, Inc
Salem, NH

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Favorite books
Date: 1 Apr 86 01:43:07 GMT

>  All Time Favorite:

DUNE.

>  Favorite author:

I don't read by authors; they're too variable.  (I liked Heinlein
until he botched NOtB -- it's OK but not up to standards.)

>  Hardest to put down:

LORD OF THE RINGS got me sitting down for hours when I wasn't
usually able to sit down for 15 seconds (1/2 :-) -- is there such a
thing as being ultrahyperkinetic?)

>  Best with computers:

THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.

>  Most interesting/unusual:

(I may get hit for this!)  THE ILLUMINATUS! TRILOGY

>  Best series:

Top marks:  the Childe Cycle.
#2: DRAGONRIDERS OF PERN

>  Best written:

What else?  LORD OF THE RINGS, hands down.

>  Other books:

THE FINAL REFLECTION for giving new life to a horse I'd thought had
been beaten to death.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Obtaining books
Date: 31 Mar 86 18:36:59 GMT

I have never had any problem ordering ANY book from a chain
bookstore, as long as you can find it in "BOOKS IN PRINT".  I have
had problems getting a chain bookstore to let me use their copy of
BIP, but most libraries have it.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: ihdev!pdg@caip.rutgers.edu (P. D. Guthrie)
Subject: Re: SciFi TV shows; American vs. others
Date: 28 Mar 86 19:14:03 GMT

>The other program that thought was REALLY good was called the
>_Tomorrow People_.  As a series (I think about 2-3 years were
>produced in England), it was really good!  The premise behind this
>one is that the tomorrow people are the next mutation after man,
>and they have some pretty neat psychic powers, BUT they are unable
>to harm or kill anyone with them (Evolution deals them ethics,
>neat, eh?).  Usual stories about mean Defense Dept. people (both
>OUR and the RUSKIES)) that want to USE them ...  The acting was
>good, the set great (I mean really good; better than Dr. Who :) ).
>I saw this on CBC about 10 years ago. Anyone else remember it?

*YES* I really liked this show when it was being aired.  Of course I
was much younger then, but I remember it being a little simplistic,
so I am not sure how I would like it now.  I would enjoy seeing it
again, though.

Paul Guthrie
ihnp4!ihdev!pdg

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: The Survivors (British TV show)
Date: 31 Mar 86 16:43:17 GMT

After I said that THE SURVIVORS was the best science fiction series
I have every seen on TV, I have been asked to post a better
description of the series.  Here goes.

Credit sequence:
Under the credits we see a Chinese scientist accidentally dropping a
vial which shatters.  We see diplomats rushing about, passports
being stamped, an airplane taking off.  (Something nasty has
apparently been released and is being inadvertantly carried to other
parts of the world.)

Episode one starts with England in the grips of a very bad flu
epidemic.  Offices are running with only about half of their usual
staffing, trains are running very late.  Schools are cancelling
classes.  Abby, our main character, is finding her husband very late
getting home by train coming from the city.

In the city we see that police forces are also undermanned as sick
officers stay home and crime is going up.  A young woman has a
friend who is very ill with the sickness and goes to fetch a doctor,
nearly getting raped by street gangs in the process.  She finds out
from the doctor that he only knows of one case of someone who has
recovered from the flu.  Most people are just bedridden and a few
have even started dying from it.  The doctor has no time to go and
see her friend.

Back out in the country Abby is feeling a bit sick herself and her
husband suggests she goes to bed.  She does and we see from the
clock that time is passing.  A lot of time.  She has apparently gone
into a coma.  Eventually she wakes up and finds her husband dead.
Further investigation shows that A LOT of people are dead.  So many
people have died from the sickness that no pair of people who knew
each other before the disease are both still alive.

Various groups of people start setting up communities and starting
to rebuild.  There are at least three groups that each call
themselves the English army and start trying to secure grocery
stores for themselves.  People trying to get food from the groceries
are branded looters and looting is a capital crime (at least to some
of the groups that form).

A group of main characters including the two women of the first
episode and a man they have picked up along the way visit various of
the societies, but eventually decide they must set up their own.
The story follows the characters but it also examines what makes a
society work or fail.  (Curiously enough it is very much like DAY OF
THE TRIFFIDS in this regard.)  Issues examined are how much charity
can a substitance society provide, what does the attitude to crime
have to be, what sorts of government work and do not work, etc.

The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who.  I
think THE SURVIVORS is the better of the two series, though.

------------------------------

From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Typographical Errors
Date: 31 Mar 86 20:02:54 GMT

>From: clapper@NADC
>Has anyone else out there noticed an increased proliferation of
>typographical errors in paperbacks?  I finally got around to
>reading Chalker's _The Birth of Flux and Anchor_, and I was
>appalled at the number of misspelled words, omitted words and
>phrases, and duplicated lines.  While I can usually figure out what
>was supposed to be printed, I find an overabundance of typos to be
>extremely disconcerting - even in a three dollar paperback.  Don't
>publishers know about electronic spelling checkers and such?

Until recently, the main thing that I noticed was words that were
spelled correctly, but that made no sense in context: exactly the
kind of problem you would expect from electronic checkers. However,
I just finished a book which had several mis-spellings that should
have been easily caught. I mean, togeter instead of together? I
suspect that proofreading is a lost art.

Ned Danieley
duke!dukebar!ndd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 86 0908-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #64
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brunner & Card & Decamp (4 msgs) &
                     Heinlein & Henderson & Robinson & 
                     Tolkien & Zahn & Serializations & 
                     Colossus,
             Television - Blake's 7 & Doctor Who & Tripods,
             Miscellaneous - What is a Trilogy & Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: the game of "fence" ..
Date: 31 Mar 86 18:37:56 GMT

John Brunner, in his book SHOCKWAVE RIDER, describes a game called
FENCE, which appears to be a GO-like game. Did anyone actually
construct this game, and tried playing it ??  Does this game
actually exist (perhaps under a different name) ??

OZ
Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz
Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti]

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  4 Apr 86 18:30:23 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Ender's Game
To: styx!mcb@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

>From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
>ENDER'S GAME originally appeared as a novella (novelette?) in (I
>believe) one of the monthly magazines.

 _Analog_, August 1977.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Fri 4 Apr 86 12:54:35-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: (In)Compleat Enchanter Series

DeCamp and Pratt wrote about 2 books worth of their "Incompleat
Enchanter."  series.  Incomplete because the main character rarely
knew what he was getting into.  Several of them were collected into
a book called "The Compleat Enchanter," but it is not complete!
You'll have to check a good index of science fiction, but I believe
there are two uncollected stories: "The Wall of Serpents" and
another I can't place.

The "Land of Unreason" is NOT a "Enchanter" story, but is worth
reading.  DeCamp and Pratt, both together and separately, did much
to advance the state of "light" fantasy of the sort later written by
Asprin.  My opinion is that the collaboration between DeCamp and
Pratt produced the best stories; alone, they tended to make
mistakes.

wz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 86 12:34 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt

"phoenix" suggested that "Land of Unreason" is part of the Compleat
Enchanter series.  Not so; it's completely separate.  Two additional
short stories in the Enchanter universe were published together
under the title "The Wall of Serpents" (this is also the title of
one of the two short stories in its original form; I don't recall
the name of the other one).

------------------------------

From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Query for netlanders!?
Date: 31 Mar 86 22:46:56 GMT

A couple of quibbles.  There are, I think, five stories in the
Enchanter series by de Camp and Pratt.  The first two were collected
in a book called The Incomplete Enchanter.  The first three were
collected in a book mistitled The Complete Enchanter (it may have
been The Compleat Enchanter, I don't remember).  The last two were
collected in a book called The Wall of Serpents.  The Wall of
Serpents is a little harder to find than The Complete Enchaner.

Land of Unreason is also by de Camp and Pratt, but has nothing to do
with the Enchanter stories.

Regardless, all of the above are fun to read.

david rickel

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: (In)Compleat Enchanter Series
Date: 5 Apr 86 03:01:20 GMT

The adventures of Harold Shea and his companions live on! There is a
book called "Wall of Serpents" that includes two stories. I also
think that there was a story titled "the Carnelian Cube" that was a
Shea adventure.

steve anich

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: The giant flying telephone switchboard (on re-reading
Subject: Lensman novels)
Date: 2 Apr 86 17:08:05 GMT

rf@infopro.UUCP (Randolph Fritz) writes:
>During the course of re-reading E. E. Smith's Lensman novels,
>something I haven't done in many years, I came on the following:
>Civilization is forming the Grand Fleet of a million ships.  During
>the organization of the fleet there is a problem: Admiral Haynes
>cannot adequately direct such a large fleet.  The solution?  A
>large display tank and 200 four-armed telephone switchboard
>operators!  Let's hear it for futuristic technology, folks!

How about _Starman_Jones_, written by R. A. Heinlein ca. 1956?

The starships of this novel require much calculation while being
navigated, and apparently most of it is done in a more-or-less
manual way.  Complete with looking up logarithms and the like in big
books.  The possession of books like these is confined to the
Navigator's Guild. (If memory serves; it's been 30 years, after
all.)

The hero wins his membership in the guild by being a lightning
calculator and having an eidetic memory.  The poor schnook actually
memorized those tables.

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 86 12:27 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Zenna Henderson's stories of The People

I haven't seen any new stories about The People for several years;
in fact I can't recall having seen any new Zenna Henderson stories
at all for quite a while.  There are a few short stories in The
People sequence that are not in either "Pilgrimage" or "No Different
Flesh"; if I recall correctly, most/all of these appear in "The
Anything Box" along with a number of non-People stories.  "The
Anything Box" is in and out of print, but it's probably not too
difficult to find; if your local store doesn't have it, try A Change
of Hobbit in Santa Monica CA.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 86 13:36:13 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Spider Robinson: a request for information

     All right, this is it: *someone* on this net must know this
information. Does Spider Robinson ever go to sf conventions on the
East Coast? For close to *10 years* I have been trying to meet this
man, if only to finally meet someone as fanatic about Heinlein as I
am. Now that I have the money to go to conventions, the only time I
hear about his presence is at West Coast Cons. I am going slowly,
insufferably insane with frustration... not that I would know what
to say if I saw him...

     If you have any information that might help, please mail to me
direct at one of the addresses below... In spite of it being on my
home machine, I read sfl sporadically at best (time constraints,
ya'know? Playing hack takes a *lot* of time...:-)

thanks folks
amqueue
UUCP:
... !seismo!{topaz,caip}!quint
... !seismo!mit-borax!amqueue
ARPA:
quint@{red, green, blue, caip, topaz}.rutgers.edu
amq@{aim.rutgers.edu, oz.ai.mit.edu}

------------------------------

Date: 04 Apr 86 20:40:55 PST (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells

> Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want to
> hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature?

YOU BET I DO!  "A" paragon, at least, and possibly even, as you say,
"the".  If even 10% of all the books whose publishers insisted they
were another "Lord of the Rings" even came to within 50% of LOTR's
quality, we would have a wonderful collection indeed.  Not even in
C.S. Lewis or R.R. Eddings have I found Tolkien's like.  Vance tries
hard, and LeGuin is great, to name but two, but no fantasy I've ever
read can match Tolkien.

> Much as I hate to agree with (ick) Gary Gygax, I must opine that
> The Lord of the Rings is about 50 pages of plot in
> gods-know-how-many pages of description, with an allegory so
> obvious Tolkien had to deny it in the forward.  It's overwritten,
> overdecorated, and overrated.

(If you feel like this about LOTR, then do your utmost to avoid
"Ghormenghast".  Your last sentence in particular applies to
"Ghormenghast" as it applies to no other book I've ever heard of.)

Now for an opposite opinion: LOTR is one of the few stories I have
ever read where I am unable to find any slack at all.  In
considering what a script editor would have to do to make it into a
film of reasonable length (under 8 hours, let's say), a friend of
mine and I have frequently tried to find parts that could be
sacrificed without making the structure of the story come apart.  We
can't do it.  Every time we think of some small event, apparently
outside the main stream of events, it turns out that removing it
leaves a hole in the story later on.  Seeing Bakshi's choices for
his "animated" version only reinforces our opinion.  The story is
excellently well coordinated.

The denial of allegory which is in the versions published nowadays
was placed there when Tolkien started receiving all sorts of notes
telling him what the allegory was (it seems there were almost as
many opinions as there were notes), which bothered him enough that
he wrote the argument disproving it.  It was hardly a case of the
gentleman's protesting too much.  If you find the "allegory" to be
that obvious, perhaps you should say what you believe it is: I can't
see any at all.

I am not going to try an actual review of LOTR right here: I'd be at
it for days.  Suffice it to say that I know of no finer balancing of
description, thought, and action.  Tolkien's words bring the
beauties and the horrors of Middle Earth to life, yet they all form
part of the plot: the glories of Lothlorien, the strength of Minas
Tirith, the horror of the Dagorlad and Mordor itself, and many, many
more, bring the story into three dimensions, give it reason for
being, and support its progress, rather than requiring it to stand
aside for a time while they are elaborated.  And the finer parts,
like Gollum's insanity, Frodo's torment under the Ring, or Sam's
unerring loyalty, all make major contributions.  None of them is
simply there as "another detail", omissible at will.

There is much more to be said, of course, but lacking both the book
at hand and several days with nothing else to do, I'd better leave
it to somebody else to say.  However, having seen at least one
public vote against LOTR, I felt obliged to report a vote for it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri 4 Apr 86 14:20:25-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Cobra, really(!)

After that last gaffe, I felt it incumbent on me to talk about the
real Cobra. Well, it was better written, but still kinda dumb,
certainly nothing to rave about.

The whole premise is silly, that the computers cant be turned off,
that the vets cant be "humanized". Of course, the whole thing is
supposed to refer to the problems that Vietnam vets had (have) in
returning to civilian status, only these Cobras are unable
physically, not only mentally, to return to normal lives. The main
problem is that these Cobras (the good guys) are just so well
adjusted that the whole "demilling" (phrase from Karl someone or
another who wrote War Games and Dream Games) process is unnecessary
anyway, and the book is just good guys vs.  bad guys with a minimum
of philosophizing on morality, all extremely simplistic, on an even
lower level than Piers Anthony, which is pretty low.

I read the cover blurb to Cobra Strike, and it sounded so bad I
didn't bother to look inside. Oh well, but I do apologize again for
the title error of the last review.

Laurence

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: question about serialization cuts
Date: 2 Apr 86 20:17:00 GMT

I'm curious how much abridgement is done in transforming a book into
a serialization for one of the SF magazines.  I rarely have the
energy to read something as a book when I've recently read it as a
serial; are any of you sufficiently diligent to have noticed?

I bring this up because last weekend I read The Coming of the
Quantum Cats and Count Zero in their recent serializations.  Count
Zero, in particular, left me wondering whether some material was
missing -- there were things that didn't seem to connect to other
things in the way their introduction seemed to imply they would.

Needless to say, every magazine is probably different, but I'd be
interested in what any of you know.

scott preece
gould/csd - urbana
uucp:   ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece
arpa:   preece@gswd-vms

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 86 20:09:47 EST
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: COLOSSUS

Colossus:  The Forbin Project is indeed the first book in the
Colossus trilogy.

The books are worth reading but a bit hard to find.

Steve Pearl

------------------------------

From: k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: British SF TV
Date: 4 Apr 86 03:02:58 GMT

>  ... Various references to the plot of THE SURVIVORS ...
>The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who.
>I think THE SURVIVORS is the better of the two series, though.

You can also include BLAKE'S 7 under Terry Nation's credit.  Another
excellent SF series from the BBC.  Sigh!  Why does England produce
such _quality_ SF, and the US such god-awful garbage?

Kathy
(Mail to k@mit-eddie.UUCP
 or kay@MIT-XX.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: British SF TV
Date: 4 Apr 86 15:59:00 GMT

> The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who.

Correction.  Terry Nation created the first monsters in Dr. Who, but
he did not create the show itself.  (I think Verity Lambert and
Mervyn Pinfield created the show).

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 1986  13:38 EST (Sat)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: The Tripods TV series

        If its the same one that the BBC made, its a pretty
reasonably adaption of the books.  I've only seen the first 13
episodes however (first book), so it may go downhill from there.

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Favorite SF Books
Date: 2 Apr 86 03:08:26 GMT

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster) brings up a good
point.  One could cop out and say a trilogy is a series that stops
at three, but I, personally, tend to echo Joel's own feelings on the
matter.

A trilogy is a single overbiding tale, broken into three parts (like
LOTR, Riddle Master, Deryni and Camber).  A series would be books in
the same world, perhaps with the same characters, but each book
would pretty much stand alone (like the >gag me after two< Xanth
books).

At least thats how it seems to me.  What editors say is another
matter entirely >grin!<

Barb

------------------------------

From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: Typographical Errors
Date: 3 Apr 86 20:58:51 GMT

I have just read Jo Clayton's latest book, Drinker of Souls, which
is published by DAW.  It is excellent, but the typography is a
disaster. 'Thought' for 'though' is a typographical error that
brought my reading to a complete stop while I worked out what was
meant, and there are many other, equally bad errors.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu
Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf
Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 86 0931-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #65
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asprin & DeCamp & Gerrold & Niven &
                    Tolkien & Zahn & Alive Computers (3 msgs) &
                    Serializations,
            Films - Highlander,
            Television - Science Fiction Theatre,
            Miscellaneous - Baycon Art Show

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: khill@ti-csl
Subject: Re: comments on Thieve's World, Edited by RL Asprin, et al
Date: 2 Apr 86 00:12:00 GMT

There are actually 6 (at my last count) collections of stories now
out about TW.  These are available from the SF Book Club as two
hardback volumes, and some paperbacks are still around, at least of
the more recent volumes.  Also, Lynn(?) Abbey, a co-editor for some
of the volumes, has, I believe, written 1 or more novels, etc.

The story lines in the more recent volumes can be a little difficult
to follow since they reference people/places/etc that are described
and introduced in earlier works.  I believe that all the stories for
each volume were written at the same time, with only minor
discussions between the authors.  This results in an interesting
line of character development, because some characters constantly
pop up in the stories, and their actions are not always fully
consistant.  Also, events caused by ine author have a bearing on
what authors of the later stories can do.

Recomended.

Ken Hill
USENET : {convex!smu,texsun,ut-sally}!ti-csl!khill
CSNET : khill@TI-CSL

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: (In)Compleat Enchanter Series
Date: 5 Apr 86 08:35:13 GMT

G.ZEEP%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU writes:
>...  You'll have to check a good index of science fiction, but I
>believe there are two uncollected stories: "The Wall of Serpents"
>and another I can't place.

        There are four stories in the series, "The Roaring Trumpet",
"The Mathmatics of Magic", "The Castle of Iron", and "The Wall of
Serpents".  The first three were collected in "The Complete
Enchanter". "The Wall of Serpents" was issued in paperback by DELL
in 1979. I supposed I could do a full bibliography of all four
stories, but does anyone REALLY care?

>  My opinion is that the collaboration between DeCamp and Pratt
>produced the best stories; alone, they tended to make mistakes.

        While I have a great fondness for DeCamp, I have never liked
any of Pratt's solo work. Very dull stuff.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 86 20:15:48 EST
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: CHTORR

The Chtorr series will be for either 5 or 7 books. (I can't remember
which)

The 3rd book should be out this summer.  David Gerrold has moved
publishers over to Bantam/Spectra due to differences with his
previous publisher (Pocket).  The first 2 books will be reprinted by
Bantam and will contain **new** material.

This information was provided by David Gerrold when he spoke to the
SF community here at Rutgers.  (To all you Starlog readers: yes, he
finally spoke here!)

The story 'Shaggy Dog' which he read to us at his speech appears in
the current issue of Twilight Zone magazine.

Steve Pearl

------------------------------

Date: Sun 6 Apr 86 23:19:40-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #62

>>"Peersa" from "A World Out of Time" by Larry Niven.
> I wouldn't call this an intelligent computer -- Peersa was a human
> mind copied onto a computer, apparently one that could emulate a
> human mind.  Does this qualify as a self-aware computer?  I
> wouldn't think so.  I'm interested in replies though.

I would call it an intelligent, self-aware computer; I don't care
*how* it was programmed.  Copying a human mind onto a computer is a
nontrivial transformation (-: at least, it took me more than six
months the last time I did it :-), and is surely just as much a way
of programming the thing as having eleven million starving CS grad
students hacking away for five years.

If the computer were a human brain (the State had brain-scrubbing
technology, and RNA transfer; they could reprogram human minds) then
I might stop calling it a computer.  But I'd be amazed if they could
chop Peersa-the-human up and teleport his RNA to the ramship.  They
would have if they could, knowing the State and states in general.

Bard

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: J.R.R Tolkien and literature
Date: 5 Apr 86 11:19:59 GMT

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>If even 10% of all the books whose publishers insisted they were
>another "Lord of the Rings" even came to within 50% of LOTR's
>quality, we would have a wonderful collection indeed.  Not even in
>C.S. Lewis or R.R. Eddings have I found Tolkien's like.  Vance
>tries hard, and LeGuin is great, to name but two, but no fantasy
>I've ever read can match Tolkien.

    The "Lord of the Rings" is a remarkable achievement; it stands
there towering over twentieth century epic fantasy like one of
Tolkien's own great mountains. But it is not perfect in every
respect, nor even too easy to compare to works which are not in
quite the same genre. E.R.Eddison's "The Worm Ourobouros" is the
closest thing I know to Tolkien. As a story and on the whole I would
say it is not as good. But the language is much more interesting,
gorgeous and exotic prose. Tolkien can decorate his work with
clever, facile versification, but in spite of being a linguist he is
not a master of language. His good friend C.S. Lewis also has a
better writing style just as a style. But Tolkien is never worried
about reaching for effect with his language. It is interesting to
compare this to Wolfe, who sweats and strains over the pages of "New
Sun", and does not always succeed.

    As far as saying *nothing* can compare to Tolkien, read Milton.
"Paradise Lost" has stunning language and an epic, fantastic plot.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Cobra, really(!)
Date: 5 Apr 86 08:02:24 GMT

BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes:
>not only mentally, to return to normal lives. The main problem is
>that these Cobras (the good guys) are just so well adjusted that
>the whole "demilling" (phrase from Karl someone or another who
>wrote War Games and Dream Games) process is unnecessary anyway, and
>the book is just good guys vs.  bad guys with a minimum of
>philosophizing on morality, all extremely simplistic, on an even
>lower level than Piers Anthony, which is pretty low.

    Correction: there are "good guy" Cobras, "bad guy" Cobras, and
even in between Cobras; and the same for non-Cobras. It is about as
simplistic as the average sf book -- i.e., very. What else is new?

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 4 Apr 86 21:04:11 GMT

 David Brin's _The Postman_ gives a sad tale of an intelligent
computer.  I recommend this one, but the paperback may be a ways off
yet.

Randy Murray
cbosgd!rtm

------------------------------

From: netexa!elw@caip.rutgers.edu (E. L. Wiles)
Subject: Re: alive computers (The Two Faces of Tommorow)
Date: 4 Apr 86 22:39:02 GMT

I don't beleive it!  Everyone seems to have missed "The Two Faces of
Tommorow", I think by J. P. Hogan.

That is most definitely a story about an evolving alive computer!
Starting from hardware and ending up .... (read it! :-))

I realy enjoyed the story since the evolution was supported
logically at all points ( or so it seemed to me. )

------------------------------

From: M.A. Murphy  <MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1986 14:59 EST
Subject: Re: Alive Computers

>From: sally!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
>lynx@qantel.UUCP (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207) writes:
>>Computer stories that would seem to relate to your request include:
>>
>>"Colossus: The Forbin Project", (can't remember author)
>>       Another renegade defense system.
>>       This was also done as a motion picture.
>
>I remember a trilogy that consisted of Colossus, [second book],
>Colossus and the Crab. Is this the same one?

The books contained in the trilogy mentioned above are -

 Jones, D.F.      Collossus                 Berkeley 1966
 Jones, D.F.      Fall of Collossus, The    Berkeley 1974
 Jones, D.F.      Collossus and the Crab    Berkeley 1977

My copies are Berkeley paperbacks and contain the above dates as
copyright information.  It's been a while since I've read these, but
I recall that the first book stood quite well on its own.  All three
of the books were quite enjoyable.  I don't know when the other two
were written, but it would appear that they were written after the
first book had been out for quite some time.

As I recall, the movie (possibly Made-for-TV) was done using the
first book as its basis.  I think the movie was titled either just
'The Forbin Project' or 'Colossus: The Forbin Project', but I'm not
sure.  My memory is hazy, and I never saw the movie.

When I read the Colossus books I was on a 'live computer' kick and
read anything I could find directly involving computers as a 'main'
character.  Among these were -

Gerrold, David            When Harlie Was One       Doubleday 1972
Ryan, Thomas J.           Adolescence of P-1, The
Heinlein,  Robert Anson   Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The
                                                    Berkeley  1966

Harlie and P-1 are very similar stories to Colossus.  As far as I am
concerned, TMIAHM is in a class by itself.  It is undoubtedly one of
the best books I have ever read.

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: *SPOILER* Quantum Cats (Jan-Apr Analog) (was: question about
Subject: serialization cuts)
Date: 5 Apr 86 22:13:58 GMT

ccvaxa!preece (Scott Preece) writes:
>I'm curious how much abridgement is done in transforming a book
>into a serialization for one of the SF magazines.  I rarely have
>the energy to read something as a book when I've recently read it
>as a serial....

Interesting question.  Why don't you write to the editor and ask?

>I bring this up because last weekend I read The Coming of the
>Quantum Cats and Count Zero in their recent serializations.  Count
>Zero, in particular, left me wondering whether some material was
>missing -- there were things that didn't seem to connect to other
>things in the way their introduction seemed to imply they would.

I noticed that the serialized _Quantum Cats_ contained more
information in the synopsis than was available to the reader at that
point in the story.  For example, in the part 1 synopsis (Feb
Analog, p. 132) reveals that Epsilon's "President Reagan" was Nancy,
and Ronnie is the First Gentleman; I'm pretty sure that wasn't
revealed until part 2 (p. 146).  Also, the entire part 2 synopsis
(Mar, pp. 126-127) is told from the viewpoint of Alpha's Dr. Desota,
whose only appearance in the story at that point had been the
warning to Epsilon!  (In fact, the Greek letter naming system hadn't
been mentioned yet.)  It makes me wonder whether the synopsis is
provided by the author or the editor.

They never did say what was going on in Daleylab.  (I'd half
expected even Tau to be working on paratime travel.)

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh), The Walking Lint

------------------------------

From: tellab1!thoth@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus Hall)
Subject: Re: Highlander
Date: 3 Apr 86 15:37:38 GMT

srt@ucla-cs.UUCP writes:
>Another nice feature is the fine camera work.  Perhaps "over-work"
>as others have suggested, though I didn't mind.  ....

Jim McGrath <J.JPM@[36.21.0.13]> writes:
>....  I especially liked the camera work.  Most action scenes in
>most movies involve a stationary camera(s) with the actors doing
>all the moving.  This film makes use (perhaps overuse) of the
>camera's mobility from scene 1.  The result is more engrossing
>action sequences (even though S&S action is pretty dull for me,
>since I have been exposed to it once too often).

When I saw the opening scene, I had a feeling that they were using
SKYCAM.  Sure enough, SKYCAM was credited at the end.  SKYCAM is a
gyro-stabilized camera platform that is supported by cables hooked
to winches at 4 support points.  By controlling the length of the
support cables, the platform is able to fly over a very large area.
The original intent was to get dramatic shots of sporting events by
flying around a football stadium.  I hadn't seen anything made with
the system before, I believe that they were concerned with the ball
(or whatever in various sports) hitting the camera or support cables
and so it hasn't been used that often.  Anyhow, there was an article
about the control computer for SKYCAM in BYTE about 5-6 months ago
which is the first I had heard of it.  Does anyone know if SKYCAM
has been used in other movies before?  It has a lot more flexibility
than other camera mounts and certainly seems to return impressive
results.

marcus hall
..!ihnp4!tellab1!thoth

p.s. I don't remember for sure, but I think that SKYCAM was
developed by the same guy who developed stedi-cam.  I can't remember
his name either.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Theatre? (help)
Date: 4 Apr 86 23:48:54 GMT

>I recently saw this television show mentioned in another article
>and it sparked a memory that I hope some of you can round out for
>me.  I remember a show in the very early 1960's in which a
>gentleman would explain some scientific theory or phenomenon for a
>couple of minutes.  What would follow would be a science fiction
>drama based on the previous description.  Does anybody else
>remember such a program?

Definitely!

>Was it _Science Fiction Theatre_?

Yup!

>Who was the host?

The incomperable Truman Bradley.

>Is it being re-broadcast anywhere?

Not on a regular basis.  This was a syndicated series first run in
1956 and later syndicated for the next 10 years or so.  It was the
first TV series that had science fiction stories as opposed to a
continuing hero in a science fiction setting (to the best of my
recollection).  The stories were not great by today's standards,
generally they were a concept and nothing more.  In those days that
was pretty good.  In fact if we like science fiction on TV, we owe
the series a debt of gratitude.  Typical story, an astronomer meets
a stranger and shows him something of the work he does.  They build
up a friendship.  When the stranger disappears he leaves the
astronomer a photographic plate of a picture of the solar system,
taken from outside.  The film TARANTULA was based on the episode "No
Food For Thought."  Actors like Arthur Franz and Richard Carlson
showed up and became associated with science fiction.  Later
appearing in a number of science fiction films.  Occasionally
episodes are dredged up and shown on TV in retrospectives.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Apr 86 17:12:48 pst
From: sonia@aids-unix (Sonia Orin Lyris)
Subject: BayCon art show contact?

I'm looking for a contact for the BayCon art show (May 23 - 26).
Does anyone know who I might contact, or are any of you contact
persons for the art show?  I have the BayCon address, but I am
looking for a phone number or net address.  Thanks for any and all
information.

Sonia Lyris             arpa: sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 86 0827-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #66
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anthony & Berger & Brunner & Card & Duane &
                Henderson & Herbert & Tolkien & Zahn &
                Author Request Answered & SF Poll,
        Television - Obtaining Copies of Shows,
        Miscellaneous - Alive Computers & What is a Series

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf)
Subject: Re: _Anthonology_
Date: 4 Apr 86 19:35:28 GMT

> From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
> BTW, for those of you who haven't read his work, he's an F-SF
> author.  If you want to read his stuff, start off with the Adept
> series (Split Infinity, Blue Adept, and Juxtaposition), then (if
> you have the stomach for HORRENDOUS puns) the Xanth series (A
> Spell for Chameleon, The Source of Magic, Castle Roogna, Centaur
> Aisle, Ogre Ogre, Night Mare, Dragon on a Pedestal, Crewel Lye,
> Golem in the Gears -- as he explains in his Authors' Notes, he has
> a tendency to cram more than three novels into his trilogies).

Just a comment on Anthony's works:
his cluster series (what little that I have read of it) and his
tarot series (hard to find at times) are much better than either
the Apprentice Adept Trilogy or the Xanth series.  One of his better
works is On A Pale Horse.  I don't know about the rest of the
series, as we have not finished it yet (me reading, Anthony
writing).

cory

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 86 13:19:38 EST
From: KERN@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: REGIMENT OF WOMEN
Cc: mtgzy!ecl@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

[This is in response to Evelyn C. Leeper's review of Thomas Berger's
REGIMENT OF WOMEN, in SFL v11 i60:]

        Hey, wait a minute! REGIMENT OF WOMEN was not a hard science
fiction book, it was allegorical literary fiction. Hard SF requires
plausibility, but subjecting allegories to the same tests is
ludicrous. (Try the the same sort of analysis with GULLIVER'S
TRAVELS, for example). I'll concede that there were a number of vile
scenes in REGIMENT OF WOMEN, but it also had some wonderfully
imaginative scenes, and some that caused me to ask myself why they
were so embarrassing. (Embarrassment is very educational).

        It seems to me that the book is a mostly successful
experiment in mind-blowing, and one of Berger's best works. I'm
sorry that you didn't like it.

k b kern

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: the game of "fence" ..
Date: 5 Apr 86 21:46:12 GMT

oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes:
>John Brunner, in his book SHOCKWAVE RIDER, describes a game called
>FENCE, which appears to be a GO-like game. Did anyone actually
>construct this game, and tried playing it ??

It's "fencing", and it looks rather interesting to me.  Would anyone
be interested in trying to conjure it up and play it over the USENET
or something?  I could probably devise a board for it on the
MacIntosh, but someone REALLY would need to have geometry down
pretty well for that.  Matter of fact, I should introduce it to my
Geometry class...  give them all pains in the neck...

>Does this game actually exist (perhaps under a different name) ??

Not that I know of.  Anyone else know anything?

Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1986 13:31 O
From: Henry Nussbacher
Subject: Card and Ender's Game

Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card originally appeared in Analog -
August 1977.  Incidentally, that novelette was his first published
work ever!!!

Hank
Weizmann Institute of Science
Rehovot, Israel

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Author Recommendations
Date: 6 Apr 86 07:29:22 GMT

norman@batcomputer.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) writes:
>I am very surprised not to have heard this work mentioned before on
>this newsgroup. Have I been asleep? Does anybody know anything
>about Diane Duane and what else she may have written?

        I guess you have been asleep. While she has not been
extensively covered, Duane has come up every now and then. She is
(in my opinion) one of the best up and coming authors that we have.
I look forward to each and every new book. All of her books come
recommended. Here (to the best of my knowledge) is a list of her
books:

   The Door into Fire           [available from Bluejay]
   The Door into Shadow         [Bluejay]
   So You Want to be a Wizard   [Delacorte] (Young Adult Novel)
   Deep Wizardry                [Delacorte] (Young Adult Novel)
   The Wounded Sky              [Pocket Books] (Star Trek Novel)
   My Enemy My Ally             [Pocket Books] (Star Trek Novel)

She has also done three Star Trek comics (DC series), two Thieves
World short stories, and a couple of other short stories I don't
remember.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  7 Apr 1986 11:47:05-PST
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Zenna Henderson, author of The People

Sorry to hear about the demise of this author, whose innovative
books about The People are on my shelf of "best-loved" SF of all
time.  I was introduced to The People in a television movie made
from one of the novels.  Does anyone remember this movie?  I wish it
could be televised once more -- I'd love to tape it!  Also, is there
a list of Henderson's novels and stories available?

------------------------------

From: watlion!rbamodeo@caip.rutgers.edu (Roy Blaise Amodeo IV)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 5 Apr 86 21:57:20 GMT

donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes:
>One very interesting novel that deals with intelligence and the
>creation thereof, is DESTINATION VOID by ??Frank Herbert??.
>
>There was a sequel to it, the name of which eludes me, which was a
>bit of a disappointment.

The sequel is JESUS INCIDENT. The sequel to the sequel is THE
LAZARUS EFFECT. They seem to have been written in decreasing order
of quality.  The sequels both were co-written by a poet named Bill
Ransom. ( I still liked them both. JESUS INCIDENT had some neat
ideas about religion, but THE LAZARUS EFFECT was just basically an
adventure story.

Allow me to plug my other favourite Herbert book here. I would
highly recommend WHIPPING STAR. It is an interesting study of
communication with a totally alien race. It's fun to watch the
Caleban try to express itself in English. It used the best words it
could to try to communicate concepts that English had no words for.

Anyway, I loved it.

Roy

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: LOTR
Date: 6 Apr 86 11:19:43 GMT

oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
>courtesy to at least those authors who are still living?  Also,
>were there tons of unapproved copies of the book floating around at
>some point?  By the time I discovered LOTR (ca. 1973), I only saw
>the Ballantine edition(s).

   I think it referred to the Ace paperback edition.

   By the way, any other old time LOTR hands out there, who remember
when LOTR was a book you knew about but no one else seemed to have
heard of?  Those were the days.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 86 16:27:37 PST
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Timothy Zahn

In reply to comments about Zahn, my opinion :

     I think he shows a lot of promise IF he stays away from the
superwarrior genre. I enjoyed A COMING OF AGE and SPINNERET , both
rather original and nicely done. Unfortunately, both are still only
in hardback (from Bluejay), but SPINNERET was serialized in Analog
last year.  A collection of stories is coming out 'soon'; the title
story "Cascade Point" won last years novella Hugo (deservedly). Any
of these three are well worth reading.
     I read COBRA, and I doubt that I will read COBRA STRIKE. Enough
said.

Linda Wald
math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa

------------------------------

From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@caip.rutgers.edu (Andy Finkel)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 7 Apr 86 17:38:12 GMT

corwin@hope.UUCP writes:
>two that I enjoyed:
>   The Genisis Machine -hogan
>   The Peace War (Serialized in Analog, I don't remember by who)

I believe The Peace War was by Vernor Vinge.

andy finkel
Commodore(Amiga)
{ihnp4, allegra, seismo}!cbmvax!andy

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 EDT
From: "Bob Mende [NB]" <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Poll

Hello,
   In responce to the all time best book/author/... poll, I submit
my vote.  I want to make the fact known that I will try to include
cycle type books (LOTR and such) with Series.  Please, I think this
is the best way to handle these books.  If I make more than one
choice for each choice, it just means that I think all mentioned
deserve recognition.  Oh yea, I will add a few categories of my own.
I think that a few other books need mentioning.  I do not include
many of the old group of SF authors, this is due to the fact that I
have grown up reading many of these younger authors.

All Time Favorite Book:
Mote in God's Eye           - Larry Niven
Crystal Singer              - Anne McCafferity

Favorite Author:
Orson Scott Card
Jack Chalker
JRR Tolkien
Rodger Zelazny (sp)

Hardest Book/series to put Down:
_Battlefield_Earth_         - L. Ron Hubbard
Amber Series                - Rodger Zelazny

Most intresting/Unusual:
Chamipon Eternal Series     - Michael Moorcock
   This Includes (Elric,Hawkmoon,Ericose,Corum,Jerry Corneilus,...)
Cities In Flight            - James Blish

Best Series/cycle:
Lord of the Rings           - JRR Tolkien
Amber Series                - Rodger Zelazny

Best Written:
Lord Of the Rings           - JRR Tolkien
Book of the New Sun         - Gene Wolf

Most Fun to read:
Myth Books                  - Robert Asprin
Hitchhikers Guide Triliogy  - Douglas Adams
    (First Three Books Only)

Best Short Story:
Enders Game                 - Orson Scott Card
Unaccomipaned Sonata        - Orson Scott Card

Bob Mende
Snail:   BPO 20187             ARPA : MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU
         Piscataway NJ         UUCP : topaz!aim!mende
         08854                 Phone: (201) 878-0602
                               CMS  : rutgers!mende

------------------------------

From: ur-tut!jdia@caip.rutgers.edu (Wowbagger)
Subject: _Space_1999_ and _U_F_O_; Where can I find them?
Date: 6 Apr 86 01:42:53 GMT

Howdy folks!

    I've been trying to find VHS video tapes of Space 1999 and UFO,
two long ago discontinued Sci-Fi tv series.  Space 1999 was
distributed by ITC I believe.

    UFO is much older than Space 1999 (circa 1970-72 ??). I'm pretty
sure that it was British, but not completely. If you know anything
about these shows, or about how and where I might find some
recordings of them, please contact me via email.

    Your thanks in advance...

Josh Diamond
Address:  ...!seismo!rochester!ur-tut!jdia

------------------------------

From: bucsb!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (madd (Madd(ly) lost in the
From: Net....))
Subject: Re: Re: alive computers (optimistic?)
Date: 6 Apr 86 20:46:22 GMT

ericksen@unc.UUCP (Jim Ericksen) writes:
>I just finished reading an intriguing vision of an "alive" computer
>program.  The book is _Michaelmas_ , written in 1976 by Algis
>Budrys.  By the year 1999 (a bit optimistic, i think) all computers
>in the world are essentially one single information net.

How optimistic IS this?  I have only been computing for a few years,
but the information available over the networks has grown
enormously.  OK, they are not a single source yet, but recall that
businesses around 1900 tended to be self-owned.  Today, roughly 80
years later, you are hard- pressed to find ANY reasonably large
company that is not owned, in part or in whole, by yet another
company (good examples -- General Mills, Beatrice).  No flames on
the accuracy of this claim, please, it is merely to illustrate a
point.  The evolution of business into a few companies took around a
century (in the US, anyway).

How fast are networks evolving?  I can give you a clue.  When I
started networking, 5 years ago, I had to specially order a modem
because no one in my area (admittedly, rural) had any in stock.  Now
I can get one at any K-Mart, so long as they sell the computer that
I want it for.  Nearly all home users (gamers excluded) seem to have
a modem that they use for something.  With this kind of support, 13
years before 1999 and just 5 after the year I bought my modem, it
does not seem at all optimistic to think that there may be one
network of information, since all these users want information.  The
more standardized, the better.

This network, should it develop, will obviously be spread on many
machines.  A good example of this is this network itself.  It seems
to be quite large from my viewpoint.  While not everyone can access
it, how long will it be before someone at CompuServe or some similar
institute says "Hey -- if we set up a machine to access this, there
could be money here."  Then anyone could get at it.  As more people
get at it, its popularity will rise exponentially (one friend tells
two, who tell two, etc.)

The point of all this is that computer environments are changing so
fast that NOTHING is overly optimistic.  I do mean nothing -- AI
people say it'll be awhile before they have something, but it could
be stumbled upon mistakenly by anyone.  Myself, I feel the AI
question is not one of software but hardware.  They seem to be
trying to emulate a human brain, but doing so in a two-dimensional
memory matrix.  I do not admit to understanding how memory in humans
works, but I feel confident that it is NOT two-dimensional.  A
single discovery (for example, a chip that works in base 3 instead
of 2, which would allow EASY memory- mapping in three dimensions)
may so revolutionize the industry that you can be off by years in
your predictions, merely because you have no way of knowing that a
discovery may be made.

Apologies for taking off on tangents here, I tend to do that.  I
just tend to believe people underestimate the ability of the human
race to be extremely lucky, stumbling upon things instead of
developing them rationally (easy to cite cases of this, but you get
the idea).  If in 1999 they don't have a single information net,
those of you who remember this can mail me stuff and I'll gladly
eat every scrap of the printouts.  Anxiously awaiting replies....

Jim Frost
..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
cscc71c%bostonu.bitnet@wiscvm
USnail:  75 Washington St
         Laconia, NH  03246

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 1986 13:13:08-EST (Monday)
From: ALBERGA@YKTVMX
Subject: Series, etc.

I have been mulling over the question of what is a story, a series,
etc. for some time now, and am including my current ideas for
comment.  Note that I have added a "new" grouping, the cycle.  This
is lifted from early literature such as the Arthurian cycle.

Cyril N. Alberga

SERIES: A collection of quasi-independent stories, similar to a
cycle, but more tightly knit, yet less interdependent that the parts
of a story.  Assignment of groups of stories to one or the other of
these categories will be mostly a personal judgment.  I would
include Anthony's Xanth stories here, while I would class Edding's
Belgariad as a single story.

CYCLE: A collection of independent stories sharing both a cast and a
setting, e.g. Cherryh's Alliance/Union stories.  A cycle need not be
attributed to a single author, e.g. the "Thieves' World" stories.

CONNECTED-CYCLES: A collection of cycles which form a "super"-cycle,
e.g. Anderson's version of a future history, including the Flandry
cycle, the Van Rijn cycle, etc.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 86 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #67
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brooks & Dann & Duane & Tolkien &
                     Anachronisms (2 msgs) & 
                     Fantasy Recommendatios &
                     Alive Computers (2 msgs)
             Films - Skycam,
             Miscellaneous - Information Request & Computers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: New terry Brooks book
Date: 7 Apr 86 23:44:35 GMT

Has anyone read the new Terry Brooks(author of **Shanara**) book?
If you have let me know what you think of it.

steve anich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 03:03:01 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: THE MAN WHO MELTED by Jack Dann

THE MAN WHO MELTED came out in paperback recently; this novel got
some very good reviews by some respectable people, but I hesitated
to read it, and now I know why...

Ray Mantle is a free-lance illustrator with severe psychological
problems.  His sister Josiane, a beautiful woman with severe
psychological problems, has fallen prey to a psychic disease called
Screaming, which causes vast numbers of people to behave like rabid
animals and sparks riots which have at times drawn civilization to
the verge of collapse.  Josiane has disappeared into the mobs and
now Raymond is obsessed with finding her, even if it means
recovering only a drooling monster.  Raymond's old friend Pfeiffer,
a balding man with severe psychological problems, has come to join
Raymond in France; he seems to have a secret he wants to tell but he
can't bring himself to reveal it.  Raymond's English girlfriend
Joan, a beautiful woman with severe psychological problems, is a
member of the Church of the Christian Criers, a group which worships
Screaming as a transcendental experience, and she joins Raymond and
Pfeiffer in a neurotic triangle as they search for Josiane and the
meaning of the Scream.

I suppose this will make me sound insensitive...  Have you ever been
trapped in a social situation where you've been forced to listen to
an acquaintance describe in excruciating detail each and every
neurosis which has ever afflicted them (plus capsule evaluations of
all their analysts and sundry other features)?  I always wish I
could say, 'Sorry, gotta go home and give my cat a bath,' and
disappear, although I usually just suffer.  I felt this way about
the characters in this book.  I didn't want to know them and I still
don't.

Apart from the characterizations...  There are some scenes that do
work in the novel -- one is a scene from a gambling game,
reminiscent of strip poker, which requires losers to forfeit organs
of their body -- but my overall feeling is that everything was
overdone; too much flash, not enough style, and not the smallest
trace of charm.  Perhaps you'll feel differently, but be warned.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 10:25 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Diane Duane

Well, Diane Duane's "Tales of the Five" novels (Door into Fire, and
Door into Shadow) have been discussed here... most recently about a
year ago, I believe, after Shadow came out.  They've gotten
generally quite favorable reviews.

I personally consider "Door into Fire" my favorite "first novel"; it
showed extreme promise for a first work, and I feel it's held up
very well indeed.  It's one of the very best-crafted fantasy stories
I've encountered, and I'm sitting around impatiently for the release
of the third novel in the series (I have a faint suspicion that
it'll be told from Freelorn's point of view... or maybe Sunspark's?)

As far as the characters becoming extremely powerful... true, but
from Herewiss's comments at the end of Fire, and what occurred in
Shadow, it looks as if Duane is doing a credible job of balancing
their increasing power with an increasing sense of identity, as well
as with new vulnerabilities and new limitations.  Time will tell...

A funny short summary of what Diane Duane is like can be found in
the "Overture" to the first edition of Door into Fire
(unfortunately, it didn't make it into the Bluejay reissues).  It
was written by David Gerrold (of "Tribbles" fame/infamy), and
describes his meeting and subsequent relationship with Duane (he
admits to being extremely biased where she's concerned).  According
to Gerrold, Duane rides horses, is a falconer [one ended up in the
spaghetti, apparently!], an excellent cartographer, a "very cunning
linguist", a martial artist, and a truly terrible cook (could scare
away the mountain lions!).  If you can locate a used copy of the
first printing of Door into Fire (dated '77, I believe) it's worth
it just for the Overture (and it's also interesting to compare the
'77 novel with the modestly-revised version published by Bluejay).

Duane's credits to date include (but are almost certainly not
limited to): the two Door novels; two Star Trek novels (The Wounded
Sky, which I happen to be rereading this week, and My Enemy, My Ally
[*highly* recommended!]), two hard-to-locate (hardback-only?) novels
involving youthful wizards (So You Want to be a Wizard?, and Deep
Wizardry), several years' work on animated cartoons, and probably
other stuff as well that I haven't encountered.

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Allegory and JRRT
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 11:06:10 PST

        I'm not a professor of English so I refuse to give any
references.  However, I'd like to point out some background
regarding "accusations" of allegory in JRRT.  As most folks are
aware by now, Tolkien was a member of a literary group at his
university called the Inklings.  They'd get together regularly to
chew the fat, and many, if not most, were writers of fantasy in
their own right.  C.S. Lewis was a member of that group.

        Lewis and Tolkien were good friends for many years, but they
had a number of fundamental disagreements that pained both of them.
The most fundamental area of disagreement was religion, but that has
nothing to do with the current case.  Another area was allegory.  C.
S. Lewis believed that allegory was a fine vehicle for propounding
beliefs, and he took great advantage of it in his two major works of
fantasy: the "Silent Planet" trilogy for adults, and his Narnia
series for children.  I happen to believe that in terms of doing
what it set out to do, Narnia is by far the better work.  I must
also say that when I read the concluding volume, "The Last Battle",
I went "Ack! Ptooey!" because of the extremely heavy-handed
religious allegory that dripped off the pages and made a mess in my
lap.  The remaining books in the series remain some of my very
favorites in all of literature, in direct proportion to the absence
of religious allegory.

        Tolkien professed a "cordial dislike" of allegory.  When he
found he was being accused of it, he was upset.  The whole purpose
of his fantasy work was not primarily to entertain the masses...at
least, not in those terms.  He felt that the English-speaking
peoples were deprived in comparison to most other peoples of the
world because they had no coherent mythology of their own permeating
their culture.  Such mythology as we have, we seem to have borrowed
from the Greeks, Romans, and Norse.  With remarkable hubris, and
perhaps some wistfulness, he set out to rectify the fault.  The
"Silmarillion" is his basic work in this area.  "The Hobbit" was his
first attempt to put some of this down on paper to amuse his
children, and "The Lord of the Rings" was his attempt to do the same
for adults.  He was himself a devout Catholic all his life, and was
upset when some younger folks took to it as a "religion" rather than
as mythology.  (I understand Sir Alec Guiness, also a devout
Catholic, was similarly upset by youngsters coming up to him and
treating him as High Priest of the Force.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 09:01 CST
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: flying switchboards and other anachronisms

In the same vein as "Doc" Smith's switchboard display tank and
Heinlein's hand calculation for navigators, I recall an Asimov short
story where two planets were at war, all math and navigation was
done by computer, and no one remembered how to do simple arithmetic
anymore.  The starships were incredibly expensive to build because
of the massive amounts of computers that were necessary to navigate.
Somebody rediscovered arithmetic by hand and they now had a cheap
way of navigating: put a cheap human, easily trained, into the
cockpit of the starships, and replace most of the expensive
electronics.  They won the war.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 1986  10:16 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: flying telephone switchboards

        Well, how about the guy in "Lost:Fifty Suns" who has an
electronic sliderule?  Now that's futuristic for you.

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Fantasy recommendations - fancy language
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 11:11:35 PST

        On the grounds that there are always new readers on this
list (or in this newsgroup, whatever), I'd like to mention some
truly classic works of "high fantasy" that have been out of print
for some time, or might be otherwise neglected.  This collection
concentrates on use of language.  Some call these horribly
overwritten; others (such as myself) call them wonderful.  This
message is intended for those who, due to their rarity, might not
have heard of them.

The Worm Ouroboros
Mistress of Mistresses
A Fish Dinner in Memison
The Mezentian Gate (incomplete)
        by E. R. Eddison

        "lapidary" prose, which means either "gemlike", or "having
        your brains smashed by a rock", depending on how well you
        like fancy language.

Titus Groan
Gormenghast
Titus Alone
        by Mervyn Peake

        even more gorgeous prose.  Either incredibly boring or a
        triumph of mood.  Not an awful lot actually HAPPENS, but my
        heavens, what characters!  Incidentally, fans might like to
        know that Sting has bought the movie rights to these works -
        he wants to play Steerpike.

Hyperborea
Xiccarph
Poseidonia
        by Clark Ashton Smith

        these are collections of short stories published in the pulp
        magazines, issued as part of the now-defunct Ballantine
        Adult Fantasy Series.  Probably the best command of language
        of all.  Arabian-nights style.

Kai-Lung's Golden Hours
The Wallet of Kai-Lung
Kai-Lung Unrolls His Mat
etc.
        by Ernest Bramah (Smith)

        incredibly hard to find.  Some were issued as Ballantine
        Adult Fantasy.  I have almost all of them in hardback (eat
        your heart out).  Probably the most overwritten of all.  An
        attempt by a retired British civil servant to re-create his
        own idea of classical China.  Wickedly funny and extremely
        understated humor beneath the fancy prose.  Fans should, by
        the way, look for "The Mirror of Kong Ho", where a typically
        thick-headed Bramah Chinaman comes to early 20th-Century
        London.  It's a book in letters detailing his experiences.
        Anyone with a copy of the illustrated "Transmutation
        of Ling" for sale should contact me immediately!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86  9:26:41 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
Subject: Another Sentient Computer Heard From

Domino, in A.J.Budrys' MICHAELMAS.  One of the few that I can think
of that wasn't a) played for laughs b) used manipulatively (by the
author, as a tearjerker -- Heinlein's Mycroft Holmes, example
supreme), or c) being inappropriately under or overmature --
Gerrold's HARLIE, e.g.

I'd add HAL & company to Domino.  I guess my criteria here is I'm
looking for a 'character' that 'feels' like a computer, rather than
one that happens to be a computer.

And then there was Zeb Carter's GAY DECEIVER in Number of the Beast,
pre-Oz sequence.  Boy did I feel ripped off when it turned out to
'only' be a computer.

daniel dern
ddern@arpa

------------------------------

From: pete@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Farabaugh)
Subject: RE:alive computers
Date: 8 Apr 86 17:19:35 GMT

    One of the best stories that I have ever read on the subject
(also one of the best period) is For A Breath I Tarry by Roger
Zelazny (In Last Defender of Camelot)

     Also there is one in his Unicorn Variations book that is very
good although I can't quite remember the name of it (It may be Our
Lady Of the Diodes).

     There is another great story in the Welcome to the Monkeyhouse
collection by Vonnegut that I also can't recall the name to).

     I won't even begin to list the Ellison stories that will fit
the bill

Peter Farabaugh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 01:37:22 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Skycam

I believe that the first use of SKYCAM in a film was in "All the
Right Moves", a film about high school football.  It was used
(rather well) to shoot the games.

Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 11:46  EST
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net

I'm forwarding someone the 13 episodes of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to
the Net.  I just discovered I'm lacking three things of great
importance:

1, 2)  The two episodes of The Resturaunt at the End of the Net
3)  The author of these wonderful episodes.

These were distributed via SF-Lovers in 1984, and the first
appearance I know of was in December, 1982 in net.jokes, apparently
posted by "gkermit!markm", although after multiple forwardings it's
a little hard to tell for sure.  Can anyone supply any more
information?  The missing episodes?

Thanks.

------------------------------

From: chandros@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Chandros)
Subject: Base 3 computers and matrices
Date: 8 Apr 86 18:45:16 GMT

Normally I am content to just read this newsgroup, but I feel I have
to respond to this article.  Please forgive me.

Jim Frost posted the following:
>of software but hardware.  They seem to be trying to emulate a
>human brain, but doing so in a two-dimensional memory matrix.  I do
>not ad- mit to understanding how memory in humans works, but I feel
>confident that it is NOT two-dimensional.  A single discovery (for
>example, a chip that works in base 3 instead of 2, which would
>allow EASY memory- mapping in three dimensions) may so
>revolutionize the industry

Sorry to burst your bubble Jim, but the base a computer works in
really has no effect on how a computer accesses memory.  In fact,
the early vacuum tube computers (ENIAC,MANIAC...) worked by
SIMULATING DECIMAL GEARS.  Even earlier, Charles Babbage designed a
mechanical computer called the Differential Engine (see his book for
a good description of it) in the 1870s (this is a ball park figure)
that worked in base ten.  By your argument all of the above should
be able to access 10 dimensional matrices without resorting to
breaking down the matrices.

Sorry, it ain't so Joe.  A matrix is broken down into 1 long vector
and stored.  It is very easy to memory map a 2,3,4,5,6,..,n
dimensional matrix into computer memory this way (in fact, it's the
only sensible way).  The mapping function costs only a little
hardware (or software) to do, and is very fast and easy.  All the
"base" affects is how instructions are executed by the silicon,
tubes, neurons, tinker toys.... , that is, what the hardware has to
go through to manipulate data.  If you want more information, Jim
(or for that matter anyone else), send me mail.  I don't think that
this newsgroup is the place for such a discussion, and I certainly
don't want the net police coming after me.  I know what you are
trying to say about neat-o inventions that will affect the way
computers are used, but you picked a bad example.

Jonathan A. Chandross
allegra!topaz!chandros

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 86 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #68
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:

           Administrivia - What Mortals These Words Fool,
           Books - DeCamp & Duane (2 msgs) & Gerrold & Hogan,
                   Zelazny & Multiple Author Books & 
                   Thieve's World,
           Television - The Tripods,
           Miscellaneous - Fence

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 86 08:28:23 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: What mortals these words fool

        Well, here it is almost 10 days after the beginning of April
and guess what?  I am *still* getting messages from people asking
about the new subscription charges announced in the April 1 edition
(Vol 11, #59) of SF-LOVERS.  For those of you who haven't gotten it
by now, that was the April Fool's issue.  I guess the issue was much
more subtle than I thought it was or else people were confused by
the fact that they received the issue after April 1.  Can you say
"slow mailers and lousy hardware"?  I thought so.  It seems we were
off the network for a few days and that delayed transmission of the
digest even though it was prepared far enough in advance.
        I hope every one enjoyed the issue otherwise.  If you didn't
realize it was a joke, go back and re-read it.  I thought it was
funny but then I did write most of it (with a little help from some
friends).  Perhaps someday I will post the translation of the last
message in that issue for people who wish to read it although a
simple program and knowledge of what "rot 13" means should be
enough.

April Fools!

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: <moorel@eglin-vax>
Subject: Harold Shea / Enchanter stories

There are 4 (or 5, depending on how you count) stories in the Harold
Shea/Compleat Enchanter series by De Camp and Pratt. They were
published separately in magazines and then collected in various
subsets:

The Roaring Trumpet      }
The Mathematics of Magic } The Incomplete Enchanter    }
                                                       }The Compleat
The Castle of Iron                                     }    Enchanter

The Wall of Serpents  }
The Green Magician    }  The Wall of Serpents

BTW, The Carnelian Cube is NOT a Harold Shea story!

The source for this was _A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction_, by
Baird Searles, et. al., Avon Books, 1979.

<where's jayembee when you need him :-)>

Lynne C. Moore <moorel@eglin-vax.arpa>

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Diane Duane
Date: 08 Apr 86 12:37:59 PST (Tue)
From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa

She has also written a Star Trek novel called "The Wounded Sky".
There is a tenuous link between TWS and the Doors novels, since the
Goddess appears in TWS too.  To say more would be a spoiler.

I liked the two Doors books a lot.  TWS is ok for a Star Trek novel,
but certainly can't compare to Ford's "The Final Reflection".

Jef

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 17:39:23 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Diane Duane, etc.

Someone here was asking about Diane Duane's other books. Among
Trekkies, she is known for two of the best ST novels: THE WOUNDED
SKY and MY ENEMY,MY ALLY.  THE WOUNDED SKY is about an alien
scientist who develops a way to get from one place to another,
instantly. The Enterprise is chosen to be the first Federation ship
to explore another galaxy-the Lesser Magellanic Cloud. I won't tell
any of the plot for MEMA, because I would be giving stuff away then.
Diane has also written two stories for DC's comic series, both of
which were excellent.

Quote from MEMA:
Spock:"[Lieutenant Nahrat, a Horta] is quite logical, not unlike his
       mother-"
McCoy:"So the truth will out! You like that boy because you knew his
       mother and SHE LIKED YOUR EARS!"

Even non-Trekkies should enjoy these books.

Garrett Fitzgerald

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 01:26 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: David Gerrold's "War Against the Chtorr" Tetralogy

Having seen 3, 5, and 7 given as the number of volumes in Gerrold's
"War Against the Chtorr" series, I checked SF Chronicle, and found
that the correct number is 4, which is what I remembered being
announced years ago when the first series came out.  Hope this
settles the matter once and for all.

I have noticed lately a great deal of incorrect information
appearing on this net as unqualified fact.  Many people have the
courtesy to say they are unsure of their information, but some
don't, and this passes on some wrong information to readers who have
no way of knowing it.  A part of the problem that can't be helped is
the delay in response from those who get their letters by digest,
and may not know that a correct or an incorrect reply has already
been made.

I don't know what solution is possible.  I would suggest that if you
have a source for your information, cite it (e.g., a news magazine
or reference, a copy of the book/series in question), and if you
think you're right but the book is at home and you're at the office,
say you're dependent on memory.  For those who can't check sources,
having three equally forceful and mutually incompatible statements
on the same topic (e.g., the number of Thieve's Worlds collections
out thus far, which is at 2, 6, or 8 depending on whom you believe
(it's 8)) is worse than useless: it's frustrating.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@umass-cs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 02:28 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: James Hogan

> gsmith@weyl.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>     I see you are a Hogan fan (mild understatement here). Have you
>read Eric Frank Russell's "The Great Explosion"? This seems to have
>been the major source of Hogan's "Journey From Yesteryear". Also,
>his "Twice Upon a Time" seems to owe a lot to Gregory Benford's
>"Timescape". Interesting comparisons both.

Both "Thrice Upon a Time" (note correct title) and "Timescape" were
published in 1980, the Hogan in March, so I rather doubt Hogan owes
Benford anything (or vice versa).

Andrew Sigel
sigel@umass-cs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 09:49 MST
From: Roger Mann <RMann@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Amber series question

Can anyone list the Amber series by Roger Zelazny in the correct
order ?  I just read Nine Princes In Amber and would like to start
out at the beginning instead of the middle (end ?).

Roger Mann
RMann%pco@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  8 Apr 1986 01:20:06-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Multiple-author books

> From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
> A more interesting example is "The Floating Admiral," by the
> Detection Club (or some such) of London in the 1920's.  This was
> written as a kind of game, in which each author had to write:
>
> 1.  A chapter advancing the story;
>
> 2.  An appendix (not available to the other authors) which gives
> the premise of the chapter, i.e., whodunnit and why and how.  The
> premise must integrate all the evidence presented in the previous
> chapters.
>
> It's not much of a novel, but it is fun to watch each author climb
> out of the hole dug by his/her predecessor and dig a new one.  You
> will never think of Agatha Christie as a prim lady after you have
> read her chapter and underlying plot.
>
> Has anything like this been done in fantasy or SF?  A
> sword-and-sorcery quest novel seems like a natural, wherein each
> author would have to extricate the party from one fix and leave
> them in another.

This type of story is generally referred to as a "round robin"
story. I know of three in the sf/fantasy field (though there are
certainly bound to be more. Unfortunately, other than the reprint of
"Cosmos" mentioned below, none of these have ever appeared in book
form.

The first is "Cosmos", a serial that ran in a fanzine, SCIENCE
FICTION DIGEST (edited by Mort Weisinger, later of DC comics fame),
starting in July 1933. It was a 17-chapter space opera with the
chapters written by Ralph Milne Farley, David H. Keller, Arthur J.
Burks, Bob Olsen, Francis Flagg, John W. Campbell Jr., "Rae Winters"
(Ray Palmer), Otis Adelbert Kline, E. Hoffmann Price, Abner J.
Gelula, A. Merritt, J. Harvey Haggard, E. E. "Doc" Smith, P.
Schuyler Miller, Lloyd A. Eshbach, Eando Binder, and Edmond
Hamilton. This serial was reprinted in PERRY RHODAN (book series)
#32-60.

The second is "The Convenant", a 5-part story complete in the July
1960 issue of FANTASTIC STORIES, based on a cover painting by Leo
Summers. The authors involved were Poul Anderson, Isaac Asimov,
Robert Bloch, Murray Leinster, and Robert Sheckley.

The last is "Genseric's Fifth-Born Son" (retitled "Ghor, Kin-Slayer"
with the 7th chapter), a 12-part story that appeared in a semi-pro
magazine, FANTASY CROSSROADS, #10/11-15 (1977-1979). The story was
based on a fragment by Robert E. Howard, with the other 11 authors
being Karl Edward Wagner, Joseph Payne Brennan, Richard L. Tierney,
Michael Moorcock, Charles R. Saunders, Andrew J. Offutt, Manly Wade
Wellman, Darrell Schweitzer, A. E. van Vogt, Brian Lumley, and Frank
Belknap Long.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 02:27 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Shared World Anthologies (multiple authors)

> sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:

>"Thieves' World" consists of 8 story collections ("Thieves' World",
>Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn", "Shadows of Sanctuary", "Storm
>Season", "The Face of Chaos", "Wings of Omen", "The Dead of Winter"
>and "Soul of the City") and two novels ("Beyond Sanctuary" by Janet
>Morris, and one that slips my mind).

The other novel is "Beyond the Veil", also by Morris, a sequel to
"Beyond Sanctuary".

>A ninth collection, "Blood Ties", is scheduled for August. All are
>edited by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey (Mrs. Asprin, I believe) and
>are published by Ace Fantasy.

Lynn Abbey is indeed Mrs. Asprin.  The novels are first published in
hardcover by Baen Books, and a year later by Ace in paper. Ace seems
to have gone to an approximately quarterly schedule for releasing
the paperbacks: Oct. 1985--"The Dead of Winter", Jan. 1986-- "Soul
of the City", Apr. 1986--"Beyond Sanctuary", Aug. 1986--"Blood
Ties"; if that last were July, it would be strict quarterly; up to
"The Dead of Winter" it was yearly.

>The first two or three books were pretty good. After that, I think
>they ran out of interesting ideas and some of the authors dropped
>out (one of the best characters, Lythande by Marion Zimmer Bradley,
>left Thieves' World for her own reality and now graces the pages of
>F&SF and will soon be in her own book collection).

Other authors who dropped out include Gordon R. Dickson, who wrote a
novel called "Jamie the Red" with Roland Green about his character
who has also disappeared, and Andrew Offutt says he's in the process
of doing the same with "Shadowspawn".

>Anyway, there are also two other series similar to "Thieves'
>World":

>    o "Liavek" by (I think) Will Shatterly -- I personally think
>    this collection is better than TW #1 (or TW #any, for that
>    matter) and I hope they continue it. Especially good is the
>    Brust story (Hi, SZKB!).

The Liavek series is edited by the husband and wife team of Will
Shetterly and Emma Bull, and will be continuing; the second
collection, titled "The Players of Luck", will be out in June.  I
agree with Chuq's assessment of the series.  For one thing, Thieve's
World is almost unremittingly grim; "Liavek" often brought a smile
to my face, or just made me feel good, neither of which I can say
about TW.

>    o "Heroes in Hell" -- a brand new collection put out by Daw
>    Fantasy and edited by Janet Morris.

The credit (or blame) for the series goes to Baen Books, not DAW.

There are two other series that weren't listed by Chuq, neither of
which I have read as yet:

    o Magic in Ithkar, edited by Andre Norton and Robert Adams.
    There are two volumes in the series so far, published in trade
    paperback by Tor books.

    o Borderlands, edited by Terri Windling and Mark Arnold.  The
    cover blurb reads, "Between the Elflands and The World is a
    place where magic runs amok..."  I'm assuming this means it's a
    shared world anthology.  Published by Signet.  Terri Windling is
    the fantasy editor (consultant) for Ace.  It is an April
    release, and so should just be out.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@umass-cs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: TUESDAY 04/08/86 16:28:27 PST
From: 7GMADISO  <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>

Hi! We Bitnauts have just gained access to your publication, which
is great.

I think you all are missing another 'live' computer, which is
amusing since someone brought up its source: TIM, the biotronic AI
from The Tomorrow People.  By the way, The Tomorrow People ran
several times on Nickelodeon a few years ago.  I've been trying to
get them to start showing TTP again, along with The Third Eye,
another excellent show, but to no avail.

George Madison  (7GMADISO at POMONA.BITNET)

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: GRADE CANCELS "THE TRIPODS"!!!
Date: 8 Apr 86 21:49:00 GMT

Michael Grade, famous for his attempt to cancel the British show
DOCTOR WHO, has taken things too far.  Recently, he has decided that
the BBC WILL NOT MAKE A THIRD SEASON FOR "THE TRIPODS"!!!!

This means that the series will completely end at the cliffhanger
where the second season now finishes off, despite the fact that "The
Tripods" is meant to be a trilogy, that only two of the books have
been covered so far, and that the end of the second season is a
horrible and depressing ending for the series itself.

How can we stand by and let a jerk like Michael Grade do things like
this?

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 86 21:52 PST
From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #64

>From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit)
>John Brunner, in his book SHOCKWAVE RIDER, describes a game called
>FENCE, which appears to be a GO-like game. Did anyone actually
>construct this game, and tried playing it ??  Does this game
>actually exist (perhaps under a different name) ??

The description was complete enough to be played.  A friend and I
actually tried it out a few times, but I was not particularly
impressed.  It's not a GO-like game, because much information is
concealed from the opposing player.  As a result there is a rather
large element of luck, which can only be partly compensated for by
strategy.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 86 22:06:33 pst
From: davstoy!dav@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (David L. Markowitz)
Subject: Shockwave Rider: Fencing

In the distant past (>5 years ago) I wrote a program to do the
scoring for fencing.  At the time high-res graphics workstations
were a thing of Science Fiction, so I never finished the "board".  I
did try a couple games with friends.  An interesting game, although
not at all like Go.

As far as I know, there is no commercial version of this game.  It
really does require a graphics display of greater than 1000x700
resolution.  Since I now own one of these, I may consider
implementing it (if begged nicely).

David L. Markowitz
Real Time Trekkie
Rockwell International
{!ucbvax!trwrb,!hplabs!felix}!csuf!davstoy!dav

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 86 1022-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #69
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Brooks & Duane & 
                   Gerrold & Vinge & Zahn (2 msgs) & 
                   Publishing Laws &
                   Alive Computers (2 msgs) & 
                   Shared-world Anthologies,
           Television - The People,
           Miscellaneous - Typos 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Re: _Anthonology_
Date: 7 Apr 86 19:29:13 GMT

> Just a comment on Anthony's works:
> his cluster series (what little that I have read of it) and his
> tarrot series (hard to find at times) are much better than either
> the Apprentice Adept Trilogy or the Xanth series.  One of his
> better works is On A Pale Horse.  I don't know about the rest of
> the series, as we have not finished it yet (me reading, Anthony
> writing).

        Even better than the "Aprentice Adept" and the above books
is Anthony's BATTLE CIRCLE.  I found it hard to believe that the
same author that is putting out the latest Xanth books (eugh --
although I loved the first three) put out a real masterpiece like
BATTLE CIRCLE.  It is a 3-books-in-one-volume trilogy.

                   ***** VERY mild spoiler *****

I have never seen another book like this, where the author kills and
maims so many likeable main characters in one volume.  VERY powerful
reading at times!

                  ***** end of mild spoiler *****

So what are you waiting for????  (Oh yeah: it's sometimes hard to
find.)

Dan Barrett

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!jac@caip.rutgers.edu (James Clausing)
Subject: Re: _Anthonology_
Date: 7 Apr 86 20:47:23 GMT

        I wholeheartedly agree that _On a Pale Horse_ is one of his
best _Bearing an Hourglass_ (#2 in the series) was good too (though
I liked the first better).  Am anxiously awaiting the rest of them
in paperback.

Jim

------------------------------

From: ur-tut!abd1@caip.rutgers.edu (   Al)
Subject: OX, ORN, Omnivore .....
Date: 9 Apr 86 00:28:50 GMT

I've had these three books for a while now and want to know what
order they should be read in. I was going to go by the order that
they were listed in another of Anthony's books, but was told by
someone (who couldn't really remember the right order anyway) that
that wasn't the right order.
  Thanks for your help.

Al Dunn
UUCP:   ...seismo!rochester!ur-tut!abd1
BITNET: abd1@UORDBV
USMAIL: University of Rochester
        Taylor Hall
        Rochester, NY  14627
Phone:  (716) 275-2811 work, 367-3577 home

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Apr 86 17:39:23 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Brooks

I'm suprised that discussion about Tolkein has gone on this long
without mentioning Terry Brook's SWORD OF SHANNARA. It is such a
blatant rip-off of LotR that it is not funny. We have analogues of
the Nazgul,Sauron,Gandalf, Aragorn....this list goes on. I admit it
is an interesting book, but still....

Garrett Fitzgerald

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Apr 86 12:03 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

Amazingly enough, the only books I've read by Duane are her two (I
believe her only two) Star Trek books in the Timescape/Pocket Books
series: "The Wounded Sky" and "My Enemy, My Ally".  Of all the ST
books I've read, they are definitely my favorites (with "The Final
Reflection" coming a close second (third?)).  She is extremely
imaginative and definitely unpredictable...  I also understand she's
written several stories for the Thieves' World series.

I didn't realize she did other fantasy writing.  Would someone care
to post a list of books she's written?  I hadn't heard of the one(s)
the previous writer mentioned (referring to some set of races in a
world)...

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET>

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: The War Against the Chtorr
Date: 6 Apr 86 22:57:36 GMT

dld@g.cs.cmu.edu writes:
>Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David
>Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_?  For some
>inexplicable reason, I absolutely loved the first two books, _A
>Matter for Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_.  At first glance, these
>seem like mindless shoot-up-the-BEM trash, but something lifts them
>out of that morass.  Any information would be greatly appreciated;
>I read the second book in 1984 and have been waiting impatiently
>since.

I think Heinlein's been vindicated.  It feels a lot like STARSHIP
TROOPERS -- except that Gerrold didn't postulate the
only-veterans-can-vote rule.  Which is what RAH says gets S-T its
bad name.

Brandon
(P.S.  For those who don't know -- no, it's not a S-T rip-off.  It
has similarities, but it's its own story.)

decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: The Peace War (was: alive computers)
Date: 10 Apr 86 03:18:12 GMT

gladys!bob (Bob White) writes:
>The Peace War is now out in a book all by itself, and the author is
>Vernor Vinge.

A sequel, _Marooned_in_Real_Time_, is appearing in Analog (May-Aug).
Haven't started it yet; I'm a month or so behind.

One strategy occurred to me, but apparently not to the author.
Since bobbles can't be bobbled, can't one protect oneself from
embobblement by keeping a small bobble in one's pocket at all times?
It wouldn't prevent decapitation, but it should have defended
against the long-range embobblements, right?

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Cobra, really(!)
Date: 8 Apr 86 06:05:44 GMT

> From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
> After that last gaffe, I felt it incumbent on me to talk about the
> real Cobra. Well, it was better written, but still kinda dumb,
> certainly nothing to rave about.
>
> The whole premise is silly, that the computers cant be turned off,
> that the vets can't be "humanized".

The premise isn't quite as silly as you might think.  Zahn came up
with what I thought was a pretty good explanation for why the combat
computer and much of the Cobra equipment couldn't be turned off.
The military wanted the Cobras to be as tamper-proof as possible.
That way, Cobras would be invulnerable to ECM (like being turned off
in the middle of a battle) and captured Cobras could not be used
against them by reprogramming the combat computer.

The net result was equipment that couldn't be tampered with by
anyone once installed.  Somewhat stupid if you're looking ahead to
the "What happens to these guys after the war ends?" but then that
was a point Zahn was trying to make.  The military usually doesn't.

Second, the major problem wasn't the vets reactions to becoming
civilians again, it was the civilian populations' reaction to the
vets.  They were understandably nervous knowing that supermen with
un-overridable, computer-controlled combat reflexes were living
among them.  We're talking about people who possess physical
strength and endurance on a level comparable to "the bionic man"
(for those of you who remember that piece of garbage-tv),
anti-personnel lasers implanted in their bodies, all tied into a
combat computer that can and will take over and perform "reflex"
actions in the face of immediate dangers that can't be overridden by
the man.

One stupid move on the part a "normal" civilian gets out of control
and bam, the combat computer takes over, gets the Cobra out of the
way, and/or takes the civilian out depending on how the computer
assesses the situation.  I'd be worried, too.

Now I'm not saying this a great and wonderful book that everyone
should rush out and read.  The writing could have used a lot of
improvement.  But it's not as bad as you make it out to be.  At
least, not for the reasons you're citing.

Ray Chen
gatech!chen

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 86 11:44:57 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Cobra,
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM

     "Cobra" has some interesting ideas.  The process of screening
people before entrusting them with great power was reasonable.  You
don't give lightsabers to children, no matter how old they are.  So
Cobras better be very well adjusted.  And the discussion of how to
deal with great power after the war was fairly well done.  "Cobra"
is a fun book, and while it may not be great literature, it is
entertaining.  The ONLY problem I have with the book is the medical
problems Zahn proposes would happen from changing normal people into
Cobras.

Henry III

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Those who believe in courtesy...
Date: 7 Apr 86 17:00:20 GMT

oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
>> "Those who believe in courtesy (at least) to living authors
>>  will not touch this gobbler with a ten foot pole."
>  Ever since I first read the above, I wondered what it meant.

I'm not sure the request is sincere, but this is related to an
interesting quirk in American law that has had significant but
invisible repercussions over the past few decades.  Forgive me if I
get some of the details wrong; the general gist is true.

Many years ago, the U.S. signed an agreement which effectively
allowed for free trade on books.  Any country could export books to
the U.S. and sell them there, provided there was no reason
prohibiting sale of the books (e.g. obscenity).  Later on, the
federal government became more protectionist (either because times
got harder or because they were being flooded with foreign books) so
they passed an odd little law.  If more than 10,000 copies of a
particular book were imported, that book would lose its copyright in
the U.S.  Yes, foreign book companies could send their stuff to the
states, but if they sent too many copies, they paid a big penalty.

This happened to Lord of the Rings.

That's right.  The U.S. government does not recognize the copyright
on Lord of the Rings.  Anyone can go out and print their own
editions.

Now the Ballantine editions were *authorized* by Tolkien and
presumably paid him appropriate royalties, which is why Tolkien
wrote that message "Anyone who believes in courtesy to living
authors..."  Presumably there were other editions that did not pay
Tolkien royalties, although I've never seen anything.

This law seems to have been virtually invisible to the American
public, though it was well-known in Canada.  It meant, for example,
that Canadian publishers who wanted to sell in the States had to
find American printers to print the books so the books wouldn't have
to go across the U.S. border.  This was a long-time pain to our
publishing industry, since it usually meant two print runs (one in
Canada and one in the U.S.).  It often forced Canadian publishers to
sell U.S. rights to a U.S. company, just because it was too much
trouble to find a U.S. printer.

It also meant that a lot of good quality books never made it to the
U.S.  For example, most books published in England (e.g. Penguin
paperbacks) have a little notice on them reading "Not for sale in
the U.S.A."  (Has anyone out there ever wondered why this is?  Now
you know.)

The law was repealed (or modified) in the late 70's when the U.S.
overhauled its whole copyright system.  This had some interesting
repercussions too.  For example, Canada's big romance publisher,
Harlequin, could print their books in Canada instead of the U.S. so
they dumped all their U.S. holdings.  The U.S. people who were
dumped figured they knew enough about the romance market to start on
their own so they formed Silhouette, thereby introducing competition
to the romance market that Harlequin had monopolized for years.
Ever wondered why romance books suddenly started having explicit sex
scenes after years of pristine purity?  Competition drives people to
great lengths...but that's hardly a topic for SF lovers.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 7 Apr 86 22:10:24 GMT

One of the early short stories about AC (Alive Computers) is a
Murray Leinster one called "A Logic Named Joe," in which a home
computer is alive and steals the guy's girl.  Precursor of "electric
Dreams?"

Good story, but Leinster thought they'd be called "logics" rather
than computers or PCs.

arlan andrews

------------------------------

From: decvax!fropper@caip.rutgers.edu (George Triantafillou)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 9 Apr 86 02:21:45 GMT

What about the story "GOLEM XIV" from Stanislaw Lem's book
_Imaginary Magnitude_?  According to Lem, the acronym stands for
General Operator, Long-range, Ethically stabilized, Multimodeling.
Since it refuses to do any "work" for the defense department, the
machine is eventually entrusted to M.I.T.  Like much of Lem's work,
it's pretty dense stuff, but still an interesting and fun book.

George Triantafillou
decvax!fropper
Digital Equipment Corp.
Merrimack NH

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Shared-world Anthologies
Date: 8 Apr 86 11:17:12 GMT

> From: sun!chuq        (Chuq Von Rospach)
> Anyway, there are also two other series similar to "Thieves'
> World":
>
>   o "Liavek" by (I think) Will Shatterly...

It's Will Shetterly and Emma Bull. A new Liavek anthology (THE
PLAYERS OF LUCK, I think) is due out in a month or two.  And Will
and Emma (collectively known as "Wilma") are now in the process of
putting together a third volume.

>   o "Heroes in Hell" -- a brand new collection put out by Daw
>    Fantasy and edited by Janet Morris....

Not DAW, but Baen Books.

It should also be noted that there is (so far) one shared-world
horror anthology called GREYSTONE BAY, edited by Charles L. Grant,
from Tor Books.

And last, but not least, there is BERSERKER BASE, which is an
anthology of separate Berserker stories by various authors that are
sort of cemented together with interstitial material by Fred
Saberhagen.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: atari!neil@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Harris)
Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson, author of The People
Date: 9 Apr 86 02:20:35 GMT

> From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (MARY MAROTTA)
> Sorry to hear about the demise of this author, whose innovative
> books about The People are on my shelf of "best-loved" SF of all
> time.  I was introduced to The People in a television movie made
> from one of the novels.  Does anyone remember this movie?  I wish
> it could be televised once more -- I'd love to tape it!  Also, is
> there a list of Henderson's novels and stories available?

"The People" starred William Shatner and Kim Darby, and is available
on videotape.

Neil @ Atari
...lll-crg!vecpyr!atari!neil

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 86 08:40 EST
From: schneider.WBST@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Typos in SF, etc.  SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #65

I don't have any books in hand, but I recall some typos from recent
readings of Dinner at Deviant's Palace and The Adversary.  Most
seemed to be missing letters, the became th.  Guess the quality is
going down to keep the price in line.

On a related subject, the cover of The Adversary describes it as
"the last volume of the Saga of the Pliocine Exile," (I may have
misspelled something there) but <SPOILERS FOLLOW> there are a lot of
loose ends that indicate another sequel.

Not only do Marc and Elizabeth zoom off to the Duat galaxy, but we
still have Felice and Cullket in Brede's room w/o doors, and Nodonn
Battlemaster's unborn child on the scene, and quite a few others.
So although the Exile is over, when do the other books come out?

Regards

Eric <schneider.wbst>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 86 1048-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #70
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 12 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Brunner (2 msgs) & DeCamp &
                   Henderson & Robinson (2 msgs) & Tolkien &
                   Alive Computers & SF Poll & Story Request,
           Films - Skycam,
           Television - UFO,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 07:34 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: _Anthonology_

I read the first Tarot book and found it rather confusing, with
Paul's character fluctuating in personality.  Anthony's explanation
is that it is the drugs, but it seems to me that someone with his
association with the HOV should have a little more caution than to
accept gifts from someone who calls himself "the Beast"...However,
I'll have to read the other two books before I make a judgment.  I
have started on neither the Cluster nor the IOI series.

As for Xanth, it is rather juvenile (and sometimes just plain
stupid), but some of it's pretty fun.  I enjoy the Adept series
best; I understand he's coming out with some new ones.

nj

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Re: alive computers (optimistic?) [data-nets]
Date: 9 Apr 86 02:53:22 GMT

ericksen@unc.UUCP (Jim Ericksen) writes:
>>I just finished reading an intriguing vision of an "alive"
>>computer program.  The book is _Michaelmas_ , written in 1976 by
>>Algis Budrys.  By the year 1999 (a bit optimistic, i think) all
>>computers in the world are essentially one single information net.

Oh, while we're on that tangent, read _The Shockwave Rider_ by John
Brunner.  They have a complete data-net there, too..  Any other
books about full-nation datanets out there besides COILS by Roger
Zelazny and Fred Saberhagen?  I need to find out some fun things to
do as soon as the datanet really DOES come into existence..
Computer survivalist?  NOT alive computers, but close...

4GH-U-CARL_GREENBERG@PROPER-DHR3A

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 17:06:22 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Brunner's "fencing"

   Note that all the editions of SHOCKWAVE RIDER that I've seen
include a separate copyright notice for this game relatively visible
in the front matter.  I doubt that Brunner would fuss about strictly
amateur usage but any distributions should AT LEAST include a
copyright notice.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 17:04:03 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: [IN]COMPLEAT ENCHANTER

   WALL OF SERPENTS in book form contained both this story (set in
Finnish mythology) and an adventure in the realm of CuChulain (sp)
that Shea had been trying to get to since the beginning of the first
book. The rights to these stories have been fouled up by the obscure
and long-dead magazines they were first published in; De Camp said
at Philcon last December that he didn't think they were ever likely
to be reprinted (and, said his manner, he didn't care; he & his wife
are now almost as productive of new works as Asimov).

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 13:25:09 PST

Zenna Henderson wrote four collections of short stories, two
specifically dealing with the People, a race who "turned to the
Power" when humans turned to machines, and developed racial memory
and inherited telepathic gifts such as clairvoyance, telekinesis,
and telepathy.  The first collection, <Pilgrimage>, includes stories
set in mid-twentieth century in the southwest (most of the People
escaping when their ship broke up in Earth's atmosphere landed in SE
Arizone/SW New Mexico), and involve second and third generation
People born on Earth.  <The People: No Different Flesh> was
published later, but the stories deal with the first generation
survivors of the crash and their acceptance/non-acceptance by the
various inhabitants of the region.  <The Anything Box> does not
include any People stories.  It does include the scariest story I
personally have ever read, about a little boy who tacks various
things onto his mother's vacuum cleaner and then imagines it into
being as a sound-eater.  All three of these volumes were first
published during the 1960's; many of the stories first appeared F&SF
and Galaxy.  <Holding Wonder> was published in the early 70's.  It
includes one new People story.  I think at least one other
uncollected story appeared in F&SF.

"The People" was a 2 hour made-for-TV movie staring William Shatner
as the country Doctor and Kim Darby (no, this is not a remake of
"Miri") as the teacher who become involved with a group of People.
It merges three of the stories which appeared in <Pilgrimage>--"Balm
in Gilead" was one, and the story of the group at Bendo another;
various characters from other stories appeared as well.  I generally
don't like gratuitously changing the plotline of a story, but I
remember this particular adaption as being very good (well, it's
been fifteen years--the show was aired in 1971-72 sometime).  The
music the children remembered of the Home (their original planet)
was particularly haunting.

Two things to note: Zenna Henderson was a school teacher, living in
Tempe (at least for a while), and her handling of children and
teaching is among the best I have ever read.  Second, there was a
massive meteorite shower (ie, things hitting the ground) in the area
of Arizona/New Mexico where the stories are set, about 1890, when
the People were supposed to have crashed.  Do you know anyone who
can levitate?

Christe McMenomy
Rand Corporation

------------------------------

From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix)
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson: a request for information
Date: 6 Apr 86 20:23:50 GMT

>From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
>     All right, this is it: *someone* on this net must have this
>information, if they dont know the man himself. Does he *ever* go
>to sf cons on the east coast? I have been trying for close to *10
>years* to meet this man, if only to finally find another person who
>seems as fanatic about Heinlein as myself. The only time I ever see
>a report about his presence it is on the west coast

Spider Robinson was at Conebulus II in 1980, in New York state.  He
lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and always goes to Halcon, the annual
Haligonian con, also in Nova Scotia.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 17:10:15 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Spider Robinson at conventions

   Spider & Jeanne Robinson have been financially straitened for
some time now; if being a writer at Spider's level of sales weren't
bad enough, Jeanne teaches and choreographs modern dance in Halifax,
which you wouldn't think of as a place where such things flourish.
It has been, I think, some years since they came to any convention
where they weren't substantially subsidized (which is why they've
been on the West Coast---a lot of groups made them Guests of one
sort or another in close succession).

------------------------------

From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain)
Subject: Re: FLAME to defend literature from Dumbbells
Date: 9 Apr 86 01:24:06 GMT

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>> Having not read Wolfe, I will only say this: Do you really want
>> to hold Tolkien up as the paragon of fantasy literature?
>YOU BET I DO!

     Greetings and Salutations!

     I have enjoyed Tolkien's books, will admit to them being in the
top 10 of my reading experiences. However, it would be a disgrace to
the man and his work to hold him as the paragon of fantasy
literature. His works infulenced a great many authors, and probably
will influence a great many more, but his work was far from perfect.
He was at times carried away with his own story and it shows.
Frodo's endless trek through the Dead Marshes, where we are treated
to days of endless wandering without significant plot development
happens to be one such place. Now, before you jump up and down, I
love Tolkien. Read the whole series of books he's written, and had
help writing. Loved it all.  But, let's not get carried away.....

>If even 10% of all the books whose publishers insisted they were
>another "Lord of the Rings" even came to within 50% of LOTR's
>quality, we would have a wonderful collection indeed.  Not even in
>C.S. Lewis or R.R. Eddings have I found Tolkien's like.  Vance
>tries hard, and LeGuin is great, to name but two, but no fantasy
>I've ever read can match Tolkien

     What makes it the best fantasy you've ever read? Plot? Story?
I'm asking out of genuine curiousity, not to be snotty. I know what
did it for me, it was the story and the characters. He made me feel
as though Middle Earth was a real place, and these people were my
friends. But so did Eddings. And Kuttner. And an all time fav, H.
Beam Piper. There was a storyteller!

>Now for an opposite opinion: LOTR is one of the few stories I have
>ever read where I am unable to find any slack at all.  In
>considering what a script editor would have to do to make it into a
>film of reasonable length (under 8 hours, let's say), a friend of
>mine and I have frequently tried to find parts that could be
>sacrificed without making the structure of the story come apart.
>We can't do it.  Every time we think of some small event,
>apparently outside the main stream of events, it turns out that
>removing it leaves a hole in the story later on.  Seeing Bakshi's
>choices for his "animated" version only reinforces our opinion.
>The story is excellently well coordinated.

     Your a dedicated fan, there's no doubt. My friends and I went
back after Bakshi's attempt and analyzed like you did. Conclusion,
the same as yours, the story is well coordinated. Still and all, I
felt the sequence with the Black Riders at the Ford was drawn out
too long. Anyway, there were places from the book that could have
been cut, ( for a movie ), since the book was primarily description
and description eats up a lot of paper!

>Suffice it to say that I know of no finer balancing of description,
>thought, and action.  Tolkien's words bring the beauties and the
>horrors of Middle Earth to life, yet they all form part of the
>plot: the glories of Lothlorien, the strength of Minas Tirith, the
>horror of the Dagorlad and Mordor itself, and many, many more,
>bring the story into three dimensions, give it reason for being,
>and support its progress, rather than requiring it to stand aside
>for a time while they are elaborated.  And the finer parts, like
>Gollum's insanity, Frodo's torment under the Ring, or Sam's
>unerring loyalty, all make major contributions.  None of them is
>simply there as "another detail", omissible at will.
>
>There is much more to be said, of course, but lacking both the book
>at hand and several days with nothing else to do, I'd better leave
>it to somebody else to say.  However, having seen at least one
>public vote against LOTR, I felt obliged to report a vote for it.

     I agree Alastair, with all the above. Yet I think there are
merits in all author's works, whether they be Tolkien, Eddings, or
Spillane. Since I too don't have a year to defend them, let me just
add that now there are two votes for LOTR, and probably a lot more
comming.

Thanks,
Glenn

------------------------------

From: eric@wvlpdp
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 1 Apr 86 21:31:00 GMT

There are several authors that write books that fall into the
catagory of "give my creature life".  The one author that comes to
mind first is James P. Hogan - Hogan before he started writing
Science Fiction full time was a sales rep for DEC, and being a
Computer Scientist I very much enjoyed his books.  Most of his books
in one way or another deal very heavily with computers or AI. One
other book that comes to mind is by Kevin O'Donnell its titled
Mayflies (although Mayflies is about a computer/starship that once
was a human being's brain).

Eric L. Smith
!inhp4!convex!ctvax!trsvax!doc!wvlpdp!eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 00:15:04 -0800
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll

All Time Favorite:
        "Engine Summer" by John Crowley
        or "Ringworld" by Larry Niven
Favorite author:
        Philip Dick
        J.G. Ballard is amazing, too, but most of his stuff can't
           really be called SF.
        If John Crowley's next couple books are as wonderful as his
           last two, he'll go on this list too.
Hardest to put down:
        "Engine Summer"
Best with computers:
        Not really sure. Most books that get heavily into computers
        are too badly-written for me to enjoy (i.e. James Hogan).
        Let's say "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
Most interesting/unusual:
        I'd love to vote for J.G. Ballard's "The Atrocity
           Exhibition", but it's not really SF.
        How about any of the "Illuminatus!" series?
Best series:
        "Illuminatus!" by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson
        or John Varley's "Titan" series
        or Larry Niven's Known Space
Best written:
        J.G. Ballard's "The Drowned World"
        I'll even sneak in his "The Voices of Time" even though it's
        only a short story.
        "Fahrenheit 451" of course.
Other books:
        Clarke's "The City and the Stars", which blew me away back
           in 5th grade
        Most Philip Dick, esp. "Ubik"

How about fantasy?

Best: "Death's Master" by Tanith Lee
Author:  Tanith Lee or J.R.R. Tolkien
Hardest to put down: "Little, Big" by John Crowley
        (but I had to, because it's so long!)
Computers: ????????
Unusual: Not sure.
Series: "Night's Master"/"Death's Master"/"Delusion's Master",
        Tanith Lee
Best Written: "Winter's Tale" by Mark Helprin
        or "Lord of the Rings" of course
        or any of James Branch Cabell's Poictesme series.
Others: "The Compleat Enchanter" is lots of fun.
        "The Face in the Frost" by John Bellairs, or any of his
        juveniles.
        How 'bout the children's books by Edward Eager?
        ...or by E. Nesbit?

Peter Alfke
alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Who wrote this?
Date: 7 Apr 86 07:19:34 GMT

There was a story a while back (almost certainly in Isaac Asimov's)
called "Body Magick".  Does anyone remember who wrote this?  (I
noticed some similarities between this story and some events in
Steven Barnes' (sp?)  new novel)

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 10 Apr 1986 06:56:00-PST
From: kenah%hardy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Andrew Kenah DTN 381-1078)
Subject: Skycam's inventor

In Volume 11, Issue 65, someone (sorry, I missed the name)
speculated that the inventor of the Skycam also invented the
Steadicam.  This is true.  The inventor of both is Garrett Brown.
He won an Academy Award for the Steadicam.

As an interesting sidelight, Mr. Brown is probably familiar to many
of you radio listeners... his is the male voice in those wonderful
Molson Golden Beer commercials... (I've forgotten *her* name, but
her voice... *sigh* I'm in love!)

Andrew Kenah
Digital Equipment Corporation
Nashua, NH, USA, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 86 07:58 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: _Space_1999_ and _U_F_O_; Where can I find them?

>From: ur-tut!jdia@caip.rutgers.edu (Wowbagger)
>I've been trying to find VHS video tapes of Space 1999 and UFO, two
>long ago discontinued Sci-Fi tv series.  Space 1999 was distributed
>by ITC I believe.
>
>UFO is much older than Space 1999 (circa 1970-72 ??). I'm pretty
>sure that it was British, but not completely. If you know anything
>about these shows, or about how and where I might find some
>recordings of them, please contact me via email.

Yes, UFO was another British program from ITC.  It was produced by
Gerry and Sylvia Anderson of Supercar, Fireball XL-5, etc. fame and
was every bit as wooden as its predecessors.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 86 1120-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #71
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 13 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust & DeCamp & Duane (2 msgs) &
                     Lovecraft & Tolkien (3 msgs) &
                     Anachronisms (2 msgs) & SF Poll &
                     Alive Computers & Book Request,
             Television - Tripods & Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: JHEREG by Steven Brust (mild spoiler)
Date: 8 Apr 86 15:50:38 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "There are many ways for a young man with quick wits and a quick
  sword to advance in the world. Vlad Taltos chose the route of the
  assassin.  To his other qualifications he added two things: the
  first was a smattering of witchcraft--badly thought of on
  Dragaera, but only a fool refuses such a weapon...

  The second was his constant companion, a young jhereg, its
  leathery wings and poisonous teeth always at Vlad's command, its
  alien mind psionically linked with his own. Vlad has never
  regretted the sorcerous bargain he made with his jhereg's mother:
  "I offer your egg long life and fresh, red meat without struggle,
  and I offer it my friendship. I ask for aid in my endeavors. I ask
  for its wisdom, and I ask for its friendship."

From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays a
major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an
interesting alien. Both assumptions are false. How alien can a
creature be when it's main contribution in a dialogue is of the
order of "Jeez, boss!"?

The story starts out very uneven. In the first few pages we meet
Vlad as a boy and learn how he "imprinted" the jhereg. Then, with no
explanation, he is an adult, head of a successful assassin's
syndicate. I presume that a previous book by the author covers the
intervening years, but there's no mention of this in the story.

The setting is interesting, though the author never makes clear the
relationship between the cultures on the planet those off-planet.
The story has to do with a particular assassination requested of
Vlad and its planet-wide implications. The action, particularly in
the first half of the book, is not well paced: many authors have
difficulty finding the right combination of action and philosophy,
and this one has one or two stretches of the latter than run on too
long.

I give this book 2.5 stars (good, but I'll trade it in next time
around).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Harold Shea : for james
Date: 11 Apr 86 04:48:10 GMT

>I've read (and re-read) Compleat Enchanter and Wall of Serpents.
>Do you have any idea where Carnelian Cube showed up (short story,
>book, anything).  I'd appreciate anything you can think of.

I think The Carnelian Cube was published as a short novel.  Just
recently I saw it advertised in the back of a book( I think it also
mentioned in the afterwards to the Complete Enchanter) just
recently. I'll try to dig up the information on this.

Oh, could you send me you mailing address, the automatic mailer
can't get through to you(and I'm too new on the system to get
through by brute force).

steve anich

------------------------------

From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane ...the list of short stories and upcoming
Subject: stuff.
Date: 9 Apr 86 22:42:53 GMT

Since no one's put down a list of her short stories:

Part of the "door"-word continuity:

"Parting Gifts" (in Flashing Swords #5 ed. Lin Carter)
"The Mdhaha" (earlier version of SEgnbora meeeting Hasai in Fantasy
   Book I think, #6)
"Lior and the Sea" (in Moonsinger's Friends)

Thieves World:
"The Hand that Feeds You" (6th book, Wings of Omen)
"Down By the Riverside" (7th book, Dead of Winter)

"Midnight Snack" (in Sixteen Short Stories by Outstanding Authors
   for Young People..unicorns in the subways)

and no one mentioned the Amber map!
(you'll notice all the maps in her books are done by Diane herself)

Upcoming

   Door Into Sunset and Door Into Starlight
   Third Wizard book
   Third Thieves World story (in 9th book of the series)
   A Wizard-story with an adult protagonist
   paperback editions of So You Want to Be a Wizard and Deep
     Wizardry
   Anothre STar Trek computer game
   possible!!(but undecided) Romulan Culture Guide

ARPA:  cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ucbvax!cory!cc-30

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.berkeley.edu.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane ...the list of short stories and upcoming
Subject: stuff.
Date: 10 Apr 86 07:01:30 GMT

m128a3aw@brahms.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) writes:
>and no one mentioned the Amber map!

   Well, if we get to that, she also did the map in "Ringworld
Engineers".  If you can find someone with a copy of the galleys of
"Door into Shadow", it has about 3 other maps of her world.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: chandros@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Chandros)
Subject: Lovecraft & Necronomicon
Date: 11 Apr 86 03:06:13 GMT

Laura Creighton states:
>Actually, I find 2 Necronomicons in the bookstore.  One was written
>in the 60s, and the other in the 70s.  I have also seen another
>Necromicon which was undated by was supposed to date from the 1500s
>at least.  I know the person who owns it sincerely believes that it
>is a (the?) true Necronomicon but that is notoriously hard to
>verify.

Oh Boy.  You people sure missed the boat entirely.  H.P. Lovecraft
INVENTED THE NECRONOMICON!!!! IT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST!!!!!!!!  If
you read any of the Lovecraft letters to his buddies (or the preface
to his stories), he says that he invented the Necronomicon.  What is
so funny is the fact that Rare book dealers often advertise for
copies of the Mad Arab Al-Hazred's (sp?? my copy is home) book.
I'll BET its really hard to verify the Necromicon that your friend
has.  I think that the references can be found in "The doom that
came to Sarnath" or "The Dream-Quest of unknown Kadath."  Again,
sorry, but I don't have my copies handy. (could also be in "The tomb
and other Tales").  Any other Lovecraft fans out there??  Send mail
if you exist.

Jonathan A. Chandross
allegra!topaz!chandros

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: When is copyright not copyright? (w.r.t. LOTR)
Date: 9 Apr 86 00:51:22 GMT

oyster@uwmacc.UUCP writes:
>> "Those who believe in courtesy (at least) to living authors
>>  will not touch this gobbler with a ten foot pole."
>   Ever since I first read the above, I wondered what it meant.
> Does it mean anybody who at least believes in courtesy, or is it
> anybody who believes in courtesy to at least those authors who are
> still living?  Also, were there tons of unapproved copies of the
> book floating around at some point?

        [Courtesy, at least] [to living authors]

Seemed obvious to me.

The first American paperback edition was NOT authorized -- it came
out something like 6 months before the authorized edition (check me,
Jayembee?).  Hence the notice.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: envsci@ucbamber.berkeley.edu (Environmental Sciences)
Subject: Re: Those who believe in courtesy...
Date: 10 Apr 86 02:07:41 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>Now the Ballantine editions were *authorized* by Tolkien and
>presumably paid him appropriate royalties, which is why Tolkien
>wrote that message "Anyone who believes in courtesy to living
>authors..."  Presumably there were other editions that did not pay
>Tolkien royalties, although I've never seen anything.

That was the Ace edition, which was why Tolkien said it. However, he
did NOT phrase it that way. JRRT was much politer about it and said
something to the same effect but along the lines of "those who
approve of courtesy to living authors will not buy other editions"
in his preface to the *authorized* edition.

The part about the ten foot pole came when the Harvard Lampoon came
out with Bored of the Rings, a parody of LOTR (which, by the way, is
funny, funny, funny!). THEY used the quoted-above version on the
back-cover blurb of the paperback.

Eric Sadoyama
c8s-ej@holden.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!ucbholden!c8s-ej

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Apr 86 10:12:53 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
Subject: Growing Up With Tolkein

Back in, umm, the early sixties, the libraries I was raiding
included one belonging to a neighbor, who was one of my father's
co-workers.  The shelves included hardcover editions of The Hobbit
and the LoTR Trilogy.  May have been British.  This clearly
pre-dated the Tolkien craze by a few years (although 'Frodo Lives'
was not far behind).  Around then, Ballantine Books was cranking up
their classic fantasy reprint activity, I believe, with gems like
David Lindsay's A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS (now there's a weird one), the
Gormanghast trilogy, G.K.Chesterton's THE MAN WHO WAS THURSDAY, et.
al.  SWORDS OF SHANANA was blissfully years away; ditto EXCESSES OF
GOR [OK, they started out less vile].  And the prozines were full of
Pohl, Heinlein, Leiber, and Simak ...

ddern
daniel p. dern

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 86 13:27:19 EST
From: OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: anachronisms and resdiscovered arithmetic

The story referred to was "A Feeling of Power" (Where a scientist
rediscovers arithmetic, which is then classified as top secret by
the army.)  I don't remember whether the war is won - but I do
believe the scientist kills himself at the end, when he sees what is
being done with his discovery.  I thought a particularly amusing
scene was when
the scientist was trying to convince a friend that 2
+ 2 was ALWAYS going to equal 4.  As many times as his calculator
gave him the same answer, the friend couldn't bring himself to
believe that it might not be different under some other conditions.

Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Re: The giant flying telephone switchboard (on re-reading
Subject: Lensman novels)
Date: 9 Apr 86 11:49:53 GMT

I seem to recall extensive use of slide rules in James Blish's
"Cities In Flight" series, despite The City Fathers being very large
and intelligent computers.

I wonder what current sf ideas about computers or future technology
will seem utterly ridiculous fifty years from now.....

David Allsopp

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll
Date: 10 Apr 86 20:59:58 GMT

All Time Favorite:
   _Macroscope_, or maybe _Dune_
Favorite author:
   Larry Niven (the techno-yuppie's hero)
Best with computers:
   _Destination: Void_
Most interesting/unusual:
   _Mindswap_, a Robert Sheckley book about a guy trading bodies
   with a Martian.  _Mindswap_ maybe?  Read this at all costs if
   you can find it!!
Best series:
   Known Space
Best written:
   Don't know, so : Best Writer:  Harlan Ellison
Other books:
   Too many to detail.  The first three Stainless Steel Rats deserve
   mention.  As do Keith Laumer's Retief tales (both good bubble
   gum).  Anything by Joe Haldeman.
Fantasy:
   LOTR, and Donaldson, the only traditional fantasy works that I
   have even liked a little. (and I like these a lot).  Zelazny's
   Amber stories are immensely entertaining. _Silverlock_ is
   worthwhile as well (John Myers Myers).  Ah, can't forget _The
   Princess Bride_ by William Golding (Goldman?)

Most Overrated: Robert Heinlein.  I've read many of his books and
   hated every one (I keep reading because so many people say he is
   so great...) except the one with Michael Valentine Smith (title?
   memory's in fog mode today) which was very good; and some of the
   Lazarus Long stuff is OK. Oh, and a delightful short story called
   "The Man Who Traveled in Elephants" (or something like that)
   which is enough to forgive him 10,000 pages of garbage.

derek

------------------------------

From: msudoc!arlow@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven E Arlow)
Subject: Re: Alive Computers
Date: 9 Apr 86 21:15:01 GMT

   First, a posting from a friend who has been following this
discussion, but as yet does not have net access:

>  Another book that hasn't been mentioned about "alive computers" is
> _Man_Plus_ by Frederic Pohl.  The computer system in this book
>  contrives a way for the human race to ensure its own survival.
>  Read it.  It is a good book about mankind's try to colonize
>  another planet by surgically modifying a human being....
>
>  Kelly

   Hokay.  One book _I_ have been shocked to find no mention of so
far is _Software_ by Rudy Rucker.  Aside from being a nice example
of the "technopunk" sub-genre, It gives a nice explanation of how
computer intelligence could come about: Once simple ai robots are
created, they are given a pre-programmed compulsion to interface on
a regular basis with a source of random bits -- this is equivalant
to 'mutation'.  Since they are set to the task of mining for their
own chips, they also have a 'survival of the fittest' situation,
thus they 'evolve' true intelligence (by the time the book takes
place, they have their own society -- no spoilers, this is
background information).

        Let me also add a recommendation for any and all of Rucker's
books, both SF and non-fiction/pop-science.  He is a Mathematician
by profession and only happens to write fiction, as such, I think
he's the best fiction-writing mathematician we've had since Lewis
Carroll [aka Rev. Charles L. Dodgeson].

...!ihnp4!msudoc!arlow
Steve Arlow

------------------------------

From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 6 Apr 86 07:35:00 GMT

Here's one I haven't seen on the net before:

Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science
fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by Terry
Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same vein.

Thanks in advance
Russel Dalenberg
...!ihnp4!uiucdcl!bolotin

------------------------------

From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (fitz)
Subject: Re: The Tripods TV series
Date: 9 Apr 86 06:29:08 GMT

    I have seen the series you are talking about. I thought it was
rather well made, considering the budget I heard of, and the fact
that the Tripods themselves would be hard to film. I saw most of the
series, and about 9 of the second. (There are three series in all,
one for each book.) I recomend it, but I think one would have to
make judgement only after seeing it, as people's tastes vary.

Eric Fitzwater

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!giorgi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: British SF TV
Date: 9 Apr 86 22:08:23 GMT

ins_ajpo@jhunix.ARPA (Adric of Alzarius) writes:
>percus@acf4.UUCP (Allon G. Percus) writes:
>>> The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who.
>>Correction.  Terry Nation created the first monsters in Dr. Who,
>>but he did not create the show itself.  (I think Verity Lambert
>>and Mervyn Pinfield created the show).
>Dr.Who was Verity Lambert's creation.  The BBC assigned Mervyn
>Pinfield to be her assistant producer.

WRONG. Verity Lambert was the first producer of Doctor (not DR. )
Who.  She was definitely not the creator althought she was the
guiding force .  The creator (can't remember his name) originally
worked for ITV. He brought up the idea of Doctor Who to them and
they laughed at him. Eventually he got a very important job in the
BBC where he again raised the idea of Doctor Who. The BBC gave the
show a chance and the rest is history.

John A. Giorgi
Saint Joseph's University   Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!giorgi

P.S. I just remembered the creator's name. He was Sydney Newman.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Apr 86 0824-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #72
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anderson & Henderson & King & Sucharitkul &
                Tolkien (2 msgs) & Yarbro & Zahn &
                Funny SF (4 msgs) & Author Request,
        Miscellaneous - Word Identified

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 April 86 12:56 EST
From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Poul Anderson Story, location of?

I'm trying to locate a copy of the short story (or novella) 'Sister
Planet', by Poul Anderson. It was originally published in "Satellite
Science Fiction" for May, 1959. If anyone knows of any collection
where it appears, could they please e-mail me as below? Thanx.

Artie Samplaski
BITNET: UUAJ @ CORNELLA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 12 Apr 1986 07:02:26-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Zenna Henderson

> From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (MARY MAROTTA)

> Sorry to hear about the demise of this author, whose innovative
> books about The People are on my shelf of "best-loved" SF of all
> time....Also, is there a list of Henderson's novels and stories
> available?

It seems to me that I did this here once before, but here's my
chance to wash the taste of that Dalek list out of my mouth. :-)

PILGRIMAGE: THE BOOK OF THE PEOPLE  (1961)      6 People stories
THE PEOPLE: NO DIFFERENT FLESH      (1967)      6 People stories
THE ANYTHING BOX  (1965)  14 stories, including 2 People stories
HOLDING WONDER    (1971)  20 stories, including 1 People story

Uncollected Stories:

   Before the Fact      Universe  (Jan 1955)
   That Boy             F & SF    (Nov 1971)
   Thrumthing and Out   F & SF    (Oct 1972)
   Katie-Mary's Trip    F & SF    (Jan 1975)    A People story
   The First Stroke     F & SF    (Oct 1977)
   There was a Garden   CASSANDRA RISING  (1978)
        [edited by Alice Laurance]
   Tell Us a Story      F & SF    (Oct 1980)    A People story
   ...Old...As a Garment  SPECULATIONS  (1982)
        [edited by Isaac Asimov & Alice Laurance]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: styx!draper@caip.rutgers.edu (Margaret Draper)
Subject: Cassette version of "The Mist"?
Date: 11 Apr 86 23:30:44 GMT

Stephen King appeared on a TV talk show on cable from the East Coast
recently and mentioned that there was an audio cassette of a reading
of "The Mist". Has anyone seen one, and if so, where can copies be
procured?

Thanks in advance,

Margaret Draper
ARPA: draper@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!draper

------------------------------

From: well!csz@caip.rutgers.edu (carter scholz)
Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul
Date: 6 Apr 86 08:24:21 GMT

On behalf of a friend, I am seeking a current address or phone for
the SF writer Somtow Sucharitkul.  Please contact:

Carter Scholz / 2665 Virginia / Berkeley CA 94709 / (415) 548-3654
{hplabs|dual}!well!csz

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Growing Up With Tolkein
Date: 12 Apr 86 02:21:58 GMT

ddern@bbnccb writes:
>the early sixties [...] clearly pre-dated the Tolkien craze by a
>few years (although 'Frodo Lives' was not far behind).

`Behind'?  Do you perhaps mean `ahead'?  In the early sixties, I was
not yet born; so I am only guessing, of course, but I have my
sources:

The New York Times published a review of the work in, it seems,
1954; since the books continued to be `hard to find' for `years', it
would be---at the earliest---the `early sixties' that the books
`[exploded] into popularity'.  But Mr. Beagle's introduction seems
to say that it was closer to 1965, the mid sixties, that this
occurred.  I quote it here, in full (it is quite short).

   It's been fifteen years at this writing since I first came across
   THE LORD OF THE RINGS in the stacks at the Carnegie Library in
   Pittsburgh.  I'd been looking for the book for four years, ever
   since reading W.~H.~Auden's review in the {\it New York Times}.
   I think of that time now---and the years after, when the trilogy
   continued to be hard to find and hard to explain to most
   friends---with an undeniable nostalgia.  It was a barren era for
   fantasy, among other things, but a good time for cherishing
   slighted treasures and mysterious passwords.  Long before {\it
   Frodo Lives!\/} began to appear in the New York subways,
   J.~R.~R.~Tolkien was the magus of my secret knowledge.

   I've never thought it an accident that Tolkien's works waited
   more than ten years to explode into popularity almost overnight.
   The Sixties were no fouler a decade than the Fifties---they
   merely reaped the Fifties' foul harvest---but they were the years
   when millions of people grew aware that the industrial society
   had become paradoxically unlivable, incalculably immoral, and
   ultimately deadly.  In terms of passwords, the Sixties were the
   time when the word {\it progress\/} lost its ancient holiness,
   and {\it escape\/} stopped being comically obscene.  The impulse
   is being called reactionary now, but lovers of Middle-earth want
   to go there.  I would myself, like a shot.

   For in the end it is Middle-earth and its dwellers that we love,
   not Tolkien's considerable gifts in showing it to us.  I said
   once before that the world he charts was there long before him,
   and I still believe it.  He is a great enough magician to tap our
   most common nightmares, daydreams and twilight fancies, but he
   never invented them either: he found them a place to live, a
   green alternative to each day's madness here in a poisoned world.
   We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and
   discoverers---thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses.
   Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams.

   \gapskip
   \authorsize{Watsonville, California}
   \authorsig{\llap{---}Peter S. Beagle}
   \authorsig{Watsonville, California}
   \authorsig{14 July 1973}

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:   chris@umcp-cs      ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Those who believe in courtesy...
Date: 13 Apr 86 05:36:35 GMT

> Now the Ballantine editions were *authorized* by Tolkien and
> presumably paid him appropriate royalties, which is why Tolkien
> wrote that message "Anyone who believes in courtesy to living
> authors..."  Presumably there were other editions that did not pay
> Tolkien royalties, although I've never seen anything.

The company which published the "unofficial" editions was Ace.  It
was partly due to this publication that we owe the existence of the
LotR appendices which were included to drive the Ace editions out of
the market.  Humphrey Carpenter goes into it in some detail in his
biography of Tolkien.

rick heli
UUCP:  ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick
ARPA:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

From: jgold@bbncca.ARPA (Jamie Gold)
Subject: looking for book - Messages from Michael
Date: 11 Apr 86 18:18:49 GMT

pardon me sf-lovers, this only marginally belongs here.

I'm looking for a copy of a book by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro titled
Messages_from_Michael.  The book is about several people who contact
an "entity" via ouija board who communicates messages on the nature
of the soul.  The philosophical content of this book is so
interesting that it matters little whether one believes the ouija
board premise.  I wanted to reread it, but I seem to have lost my
copy.

The sequel just came out (More Messages from Michael) and is in the
stores, but I can't seem to find a copy of the first book.  It's
published by Berkeley, and I was told by bookstores that it can only
be ordered in batches of 25 or more.  If you have this book, I'd
like to buy it from you.  If you see this book I'll gladly send you
a check to purchase it and ship it to me.

Jamie Gold (jgold at bbncc6.arpa)
BBN Communications Corporation
33 Moulton Street rm 8/052
Cambridge. MA 02238
617 497-3673

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn
Date: 11 Apr 86 22:15:59 GMT

math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Linda Wald) writes:
>I enjoyed A COMING OF AGE and SPINNERET, both rather original and
>nicely done.... "Cascade Point" won last years novella Hugo
>(deservedly). Any of these three are well worth reading.

I liked _Spinneret_, but with _Cascade Point_ I had trouble
suspending my disbelief.  I'll grudgingly accept that only the
"important" branches of one's multiversal self appear as Cascade
images (though I wonder how the "important" ones are selected from
the Aleph_two* possible paths).  Why should they line up neatly in
four directions?  (Which four?  Is there a preferred orientation in
the universe?  What determines a horizontal plane in space?)  If
they can't be photographed, how can they be seen by other observers?
Could you see them in a dark room?  Wearing a blindfold?  Can a
blind person see them?

Enough.  It *was* a pretty decent story otherwise, and maybe the
sequel (_The Evidence of Things Not Seen_, Jun Analog) will clean
some of it up.

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)
*This figure depends on several assumptions including continuity and
GCH.  I'd be happy to discuss why I used this value, but this is not
the place.

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 11 Apr 86 20:30:30 GMT

>Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science
>fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by
>Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same
>vein.

I read the _Color_of_Magic and enjoyed it very much. As for others,
I can't think of to many. _Cats_Have_No_Lords_ by Will Shetterly was
humorous (as was his _Witch_Blood_). I've been told that Mister
Scientology himself wrote a series of humorous fantasy novels. Oh
and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like "And the
devil....". I don't remember the title off hand but it had Asmodeus as
a drunk and had Communist Gnomes.

By the way, check out _The_Star_Diaries_ by Stanislov Lem. It was
the funniest sf book I ever read. Also JOB by Robert Heinlein is
extremely funny(probably my second favorite.).

Steve Anich

------------------------------

From: bucsb!odin@caip.rutgers.edu (Odin)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 12 Apr 86 01:51:49 GMT

Humorous Fantasy is indeed one of the least refered to and (to me at
least) most enjoyable sub-genres of F&SF.  A couple of my favorites
are:

1) The Myth Adventures series by Robert Asprin, including:
    Another Fine Myth
    Myth Directions
    Hit or Myth
    Little Myth Marker
    Myth Conceptions
    (I think theres another one but I can't remember what it is,
     note that these titles are not in order)

2) Samurai Cat.
   Mark Rogers is a genius, both as an author and a graphic artist,
   look for his prints and book.  There is only one samurai cat book
   out so far, but he has said there will be more coming...

Ben Page
CSNET:     odin%bucsb@bu-cs
ARPANET:   odin%bucsb%bu-cs@csnet-relay
UUCP:      ...harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!odin
BITNET:    odin%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 10 Apr 86 16:24:19 GMT

Try the following:

   Dancing Gods Series by Jack Chalker
       River of the Dancing Gods
       Vengeance of the Dancing Gods
       Demon of the Dancing Gods

   Dimension of Miracles by Robert Sheckley
   Mindwarp by Robert Sheckley
   Options by Robert Sheckley
   Journey Beyond Tomorrow by Robert Sheckley

   Star-Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, by Harry Harrison
   The Technicolor Time Machine, by Harry Harrison
   Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison

   Author, Author (short story) by Isaac Asimov
   What is this thing called Love (short story) by Isaac Asimov

   A Logic Called Joe (short story), by Murray Leinster

   Master of Space and Time, by Rudy Rucker

   A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain

   The Lensmen Series by E.E."Doc" Smith (yes, I know the author
       intended them to be straight, but they're howlingly funny)

   Tik-Tok, by John Sladek

   The Flying Sorcerors, by Larry Niven and David Gerrold (not
       entirely sure that it was David Gerrold, but definitely
       Niven and someone else)
   Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex (short story), by Larry Niven

   The Compleat Enchanter, by Fletcher Pratt and L.Sprague DeCamp
   Lest Darkness Fall, by L.Sprague DeCamp

   The Hitch-hikers Guide Books, by Douglas Adams:
       The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
       The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
       Life, the Universe, and Everything
       So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

   What Entropy Means to Me, by Geo. Alec Effinger

   Hope this list gives you something to work with.  Some of the books
I mention have very serious bits as well, but just stand out in my
mind as funny.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Apr 86 15:05 PST
From: Kinsman David J <8440827%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: SF Humor

Has anyone come accross any SF humor similair in nature to the
Douglas Adams trilogy.  I loved those books and am interested in
finding others that are similair.

Thanks,
David Kinsman

------------------------------

From: msudoc!arlow@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven E Arlow)
Subject: looking for author's name...
Date: 10 Apr 86 20:09:56 GMT

        I just recieved a recommendation for a book entitled
_Daystar_and_Shadow_ .  As far as I know it is no longer in print.
Anyone knowing pertinent information about it (such as, Author's
name, correct title if that's not it, etc.) , it would be greatly
appreciated.  Storyline as described to me involved people who could
communicate telepathically with desert-dwelling worms (smaller than
the Herbert (RIP) variety)...

Thanks in advance,
Steve arlow
...!ihnp4!msudoc!arlow

------------------------------

From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley)
Subject: A word identified
Date: 8 Apr 86 16:42:25 GMT

Recently somebody asked about the meaning of a strange word used in
Gene Wolfe's _Book_of_the_New_Sun_.  Apparently the article has
expired, so I don't know who asked, but here's the answer.

The sentence in question is on page 5 of the first volume of BotNS
(_The_ _Shadow_of_the_Torturer_), and says:

   "As though an amschaspand had touched them with his radiant wand,
   the fog swirled and parted to let a beam of green moonlight
   fall."

This word "amschaspand" is an odd spelling of the old Avestan word
which in English is usually spelled "Amesha-Spenta" (but one
occasionally sees "Amsha-Spand").  (Did Wolfe's spelling come
through German somehow?)  It literally means "Immortal-Holy", and
refers to any one of the six (or by some counts, seven) archangels
of the Zoroastrian religion.  They are the chief servants and aides
of Ahura-Mazda (also called "Ormazd"), the good god.  (There is a
bad god, too, named Ahriman.)

It is an open question, and much discussed, just how much influence
the ancient Persian conception of angels had on pre-Rabbinical
Judaism, and therefore on Christianity.  (One might perhaps better
ask how much of the nature of angels was revealed to the
Zoroastrians, and through them to the Church.)  Anyway, it's
historically and linguistically accurate to translate "amschaspand"
as "archangel".

John Woolley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 15 Apr 86 02:46:47 EST
Date: 14 Apr 86 0857-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #73
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brooks & Brust & Gerrold & Herbert &
                    Johnson & SF Poll & Live Computers & 
                    Funny SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: New terry Brooks book
Date: 11 Apr 86 17:37:56 GMT

anich@puff.UUCP writes:
>Has anyone read the new Terry Brooks(author of **Shanara**) book?
>If you have let me know what you think of it.

* flame of Anor on *

     If it's anything like the original _Sword of Shannara_, it's
just yet another rehashing of themes, incidents, character
attributes, and settings originally found in Tolkien.  Brooks is one
of the most bare faced and slimy rippers-off of Tolkien around (in my
humble and non-libelous opinion).

     Did you know that "Elessedil", the name of the Elf king in
_Sword_, could easily be interpreted as a name in Tolkien's Elvish,
with the meaning "Lover of Elvish Names"?!!?  Disgusting.

* flame of Anor off *

     Apologies to Brooks fans out there, but he is *not* one of my
favourite authors.

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Jhereg
Date: 4 Apr 86 08:46:35 GMT

> I like the work of Brust and would appreaciate any information
> anyone could supply concerning his past work and any upcoming
> novels.  A sequel to Jhereg, perhaps...

A sequel to Jhereg will be out at the end of '86.  It will be
called, TECKLA.   Jhereg is a first novel.  The others, in order,
are: TO REIGN IN HELL, YENDI, and BROKEDOWN PALACE.

And thanks, by the way.

skzb

------------------------------

From: cc@ucla-cs.ARPA (Oleg Kiselev (a student still))
Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr
Date: 9 Apr 86 09:29:09 GMT

>From: David.Detlefs@G.CS.CMU.EDU
>Does anyone know anything about the state of final book in David
>Gerrold's trilogy _The War Against the Chtorr_?  For some
>inexplicable reason, I absolutely loved the first two books, _A
>Matter for Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_.  At first glance, these
>seem like mindless shoot-up-the-BEM trash, but something lifts them
>out of that morass.  Any information would be greatly appreciated;
>I read the second book in 1984 and have been waiting impatiently
>since.

MINDLESS?! Gerrold's _Chtorr_ books are some of the best SF works I
have ever read. The "something(s)" that "lifts them out of that
morass" are Gerrold's writing style, the highly sophisticated
character developement, unpredictable and exciting story line, deep
philosophical musings, unusual approach to an "alien
contamination/invasion" subject, very realistic and moving character
interactions, the books' strange uplifting mood despite the deeper
and more inescapable tragedies that happen all the way through them,
the feelings of despair and agony and human suffering - along with
courage and strength.

I would highly recommend these books to SF readers. My rating of
them is +4 (on -4..+4 scale).

And I am too waiting for the 3rd book......

Oleg Kiselev
oleg%OACVAX.BITNET

------------------------------

From: uvacs!mac@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Colvin)
Subject: Re: Re: alive computers
Date: 11 Apr 86 15:16:32 GMT

donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes:
>One very interesting novel that deals with intelligence and
>the creation thereof, is DESTINATION VOID by ??Frank Herbert??.

Interesting! "Destination Void"?  You've got to be kidding.  That
was one of the worst SF novels of all time!  It makes "Men, Women,
Children, & Household Pets of Dune" look good by comparison.  The
book is just Herbert slinging lots of jargon that he obviously
doesn't understand.  I think "The Jesus Effect" was a rewrite, not a
sequel.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 1986 21:51-CST
From: marick%ccvaxa@gswd-vms
Subject: Fiskadoro (review)

Fiskadoro, by Denis Johnson, Knopf, 1985 (hardcover)

Certain people will enjoy this book quite a lot.  Others will
certainly dislike it.  Describing the books to which it is similar
may be best -- if you liked those, consider trying this.

The first book is "A Canticle for Leibowitz".  Like that book,
"Fiskadoro" is a post-holocaust novel, although set only a
generation after WWIII.  More importantly, it shares with "Canticle"
the twist that the survivors are incapable of interpreting the
details of the past.  I have always remembered the "Canticle" monks
patiently illuminating circuit diagrams.  I think I will always
remember the way that, in "Fiskadoro", the history and mythology of
the Israelites and Rastafarians have merged.  I find such touches
useful in a book of this kind; they're a steady drumbeat, just at
the surface, reminding me that things have changed.

Because the changes the war brought about are central to the book.
Good science fiction sometimes reminds me of good anthropological
description.  It shows you a possible culture, with different
customs and, most importantly, different ways of thinking.  Typical
science fiction assumes that all sentient life, and certainly all
humans, think and react alike -- are twentieth-century,
middle-class, well-educated rationalists like the author, most of
his audience, me, and probably you.  (Or, worse yet, are nothing
more than an exaggeration of some human trait.) "Fiskadoro" does an
excellent job of depicting a peasant fishing village (a somewhat
foreign culture) and how it both ignores and digests the changes
caused by the war.

But "Fiskadoro" is more concerned with individual characters.  The
war is long in the past -- the world has partly recovered -- but it
is still a central part of life, is still changing the world, and
still looms in the background, promising further changes.  This
concentration on the effects of great events on individuals is
similar to "Radix" (although without that book's extravagance) and
several novels of J.G. Ballard.  The "mystical" tone of the book,
the writing style, and the disoriented, shell-shocked characters are
similar to much of Ballard (especially "The Crystal World" and
related books).  I am also reminded of Philip K. Dick's characters,
who were often ordinary people coping with extraordinary situations.

The book is clearly in the literary mainstream and doesn't owe much
to science fiction's rich history.  Plot is not particularly
important, although there is a wonderful sub-story, the
recollections of an old woman who escaped the fall of South Vietnam
long, long ago.  The ending is an "epiphany", a fashion (invented by
James Joyce and nurtured thoughout the years by the New Yorker)
which I loathe.

Brian Marick

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Poll
Date: 11 Apr 86 19:26:46 GMT

OK, I'll succumb (and remember, there's no accounting for taste)...
[NOTICE, titles subject to change without notice; ratings dependent
on phase of the moon in conjunction to Uranus' tilt ... and a lot of
other appropriate mumbo jumbo).

All Time Favorite SF Book:
Mote in God's Eye           - Niven  & Pournelle

They did their homework.  I enjoy a read where the world is
"complete" down to the gnat's ass. _Mote_ gave me that feeling.

  Honorable mention:

  Fuzzy books - Piper; Wrath of Khan - McIntyre; Protector - Niven;
  High Justice - Pournelle; Practice Effect - Brin; Witches of
Karres - Schmitz; High Crusade - Anderson; Lathe of Heaven - LeGuin;
Ship Who Sang - McCaffrey; Breed to Come - Norton ...

All Time Favorite Fantasy Book:
The Riddle Master of Hed  - P.McKillip
[Book 1 is my fav' the other 2 merit
HIGH honorable mention.]

Again, a sense of Completeness.  Scope approaching Tolkien's with
the same care -- and a better who's who mystery.  I LIKE the ideas,
esp. Land Holding, the mode of shape changing, and Deth.

Beauty - McKinley
All time favorite heroine.  McKinley writes _ME_.

Tempest  - Shakespeare    Need I say more?

  Honorable mention:
  Last Unicorn & Fine & Private Place - Beagle; Deryni books (I'm a
  weird one who prefered the Camber 3); Face in the Frost; The Blue
  Sword - McKinley; Castle Down & Broken Citadel - Gregorian (anyone
  know when the 3rd book is due?); Amber - Zelazny; Dracula Tapes &
  Holmes/Dracula Files - Saberhagen (the former is best if you've
  read the Stoker original); The Princess Bride - (the immortal) S.
  Morgenstern (!);The Weirdstone of Brisingamen & The Moon of
  Gomrath - Garner; Pyrdain (esp. Taran Wanderer) - Alexander;
  Narnia - Lewis; EarthSea - LeGuin; Dragonworld (I forget
  who);Urshurak - M-somebody and the brothers Hildebrandt; Pern
  stuff - McCaffrey;Lion of Ireland - Llewyllan; ElfQuest saga - the
  Pinis (and, no, I'm not a cultist about it -- but something, I'm
  not sure what, really gets under my skin and roosts there);Myth(s)
  - Asprin; Silverlock - Myers Myers ... and that's enough for this
  pass >grin!< (and you thought I was going to forget
  Tolkien....>grin!<)

Favorite SF Author:
humph.  Lessee, who do I jump to pick up?  Niven, yeah -- at least
today.  Like his ideas.

  honorable mention:
  Pournelle, Brin, Piper, McIntyre, LeGuin (runs hot and cold),
  Zelazny, some Anderson...

Favorite SF Author:
Robin McKinley

She writes like I think.  Maybe we share the same Muse? Certainly
the same passions...

  honorable mention:
  Beagle, Zelazny, McKillip, Alexander, Garner, Springer ...see book
  honorable mention... and whatshisname -- oh yeah, JRRT >grin< (by
  the way, I LIKED Simarillion (sp) -- best creation myth I've ever
  read)

Hardest Book/series to put Down:

I marathon _everything_ -- that's the way I read.  The major titles
springing currently to mind though:

  Hunt For Red October (not _really_ SF, but it sprang to mind)
  Beauty - McKinley
  Riddle Master of Hed - McKillip
  Elf Quest (either the _original_ mags or the color books...I'll
     pick one up, and the next thing I know three hours has passed)

Most intresting/Unusual SF:

Practice Effect - Brin
Lord of Light - Zelazny

  honorable mention:
  High Crusade - Anderson; Lathe of Heaven - LeGuin

Most intresting/Unusual SF:

Unicorn Variation - Zelazny (short)

  honorable mention:
  Amber; Fine & Private Place - Beagle; Silverlock - Myers Myers (a
  challenge to get all the allusions)

Best Series/cycle:

Best?  I know no best.  Look back under favorites ... still ...
favorite bests (which isn't the same as favorites)...

SF:
Fuzzys - Piper

  honorable mention:
  Niven's Known Space

Fantasy:
Riddle Master of Hed - McKillip  (do I repeat myself? >grin<)

  honorable mention (not necessarily in order of preference):
  Deryni (1st & 2nd trilogy -- haven't started the third); Pern -
  McCaffrey; Amber - Zelazny; Broken Citadel & Castle Down -
  Gregorian; EarthSea - LeGuin; Pyrdain - Alexander; Narnia - Lewis;
  Weirdstone & Moon - Garner (see above); Hobbit + Lord of the Rings
  - Tolkien

Best Written:

SF:
Mote in God's Eye

  honorable mention:

  nearly anything Zelazny, but lets say Lord of Light; a lot of
  Niven; a lot of LeGuin

Fantasy:
Silverlock - Myers Myers

The man did his Homework without being ponderous about it.  I
compare this _favorably_ to TS Eliot's _Wasteland_ (uh oh, ten
university English prof.s just clutched their hearts) -- and it's a
lot more palatable.

  honorable mention:

  Donaldson's first trilogy.  I was not able to finish book 1, this
     body can only take so much depression.  The sheer unadulterated
     careful crafting of his words, and the depth of his ideas (he
     was, after all succeeding too well at what he was trying to say
     -- the books are deep as a "bottomless" pit) may spur me to a
     retry -- when I'm feeling VERY good about myself.

  Riddle Master of Hed - McKillip.  The best (I've read) since
     Tolkien doing what Tolkein does.  (Donaldson may be better than
     both, and I've not read Wolfe.)
  Hobbit - Tolkien  He adopts a voice and succeeds.
  Lord Of the Rings - Tolkien Like it or not, the man is the mold of
     modern epic fantasy.
  Tempest - Shakespeare.  The twin pinacle of the man's work.  The
     other is King Lear, which, if I felt confident about classing
     as fantasy, would be my all time favorite and hardest to put
     down.
  Lewis; Alexander; Zelazny; LeGuin; Clarke ...

Most Fun to read:
SF:
Hoka Books - Dickson (and Carr?)
  honorable mention:
  Callahan's Bar (punster beware!); Witches of Karres; Warlock in
  Spite of Himself & Warlock Unbound (Father Vidicon of Cathode,
  preserve us!) <-- cross reference with fantasy; Dream Park - Niven
  & Barnes; Practice Effect - Brin...

Fantasy:
(this one is no contest)
Princess Bride - the immortal S.Morgenstern (alias Wm. Golding)

  honorable mention:
  Myth Books - Robert Asprin; Beauty - McKinley; Peter Beagle

Best Short Story:

SF:
The Star - Arthur Clarke
  honorable mention:
  Nine Billion Names of God - Clarke; The Queen of Air and Darkness
  - Anderson; No Truce with Kings - Anderson; Niven's Known Space

Fantasy:
Unicorn Variations - Zelazny

  honorable mention:
  The Imp of the Perverse - Poe; LeGuin's where the Prince starts
  time again (he has a griffin), I forget the title.

And, the final topic which everyone has been avoiding like the
Denarian plague (makes your tongue turn purple with electric green
and blue spots)...

Books I'm most embarrassed to say I enjoyed ...

The first four (and no MORE than that) of John Norman's Gor series
(before Tarl Cabot lost his honor).  The rest aren't worth the paper
they're printed on (and getting worse I hear), but the first four
had some good adventures (if you ignored the women really want to be
slaves drek)(and that was good for some adolescent jollies)(>grin!<)

So, that's it, an admittedly incomplete list (!) -- for now.

I've got to GO!

Barb

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Another Sentient Computer Heard From
Date: 11 Apr 86 20:06:48 GMT

I'm amazed.  No-one's yet mentioned Laz' Long's sidekick Dora.  And
then there was the planet based computer in the same book (whose
name currently defies memory) that fell in love and became human.  I
thought _that_ was a nice twist on things (and proved Laz' reasons
for arresting Dora's emotional age at, what was it?, 13?)

Barb

------------------------------

From: calma!pincus@caip.rutgers.edu (Jon Pincus)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 11 Apr 86 17:16:03 GMT

Much of Eric Frank Russell's stuff -- particularly "Plus X"
(novelized in an old Ace Double as _The Space Willies_) and "The
Alamagoosa" (which won a Hugo Award) is really funny ("Plus X" is in
the excellent collection _4 for the Future_, edited by Groff
Conklin).

More quirkily, I'm a big fan of Robert Anton Wilson, especially the
_Illuminati_ trilogy (co-authored by Robert Shea).  I fell out of my
chair laughing at some parts of this . . . on the other hand, some
people I've given it to have just thought it was weird or boring,
clearly due to their intellectual inferiority (:-), just so nobody
misinterprets that!).

A friend of mine swears by David Gerrold's (and Larry Niven's?) _The
Flying Sorcerers_, but I thought it was sort of too obvious.

jon
ucbvax!calma!pincus

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: More humour in F&SF
Date: 11 Apr 86 15:56:28 GMT

A few more humourous books/stories my friends have recommended:

   All the Retief books, by Keith Laumer

   The Princess Bride, by William Goldman (S.Morgenstern) -- very
       heartily recommended by one and all

   The Compleat Werewolf, by Anthony Boucher

   Operation: Chaos, by Poul Anderson

   The Hoka books, by Poul Anderson and Gordon R. Dickson

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Received: from RED.RUTGERS.EDU by RED.RUTGERS.EDU with TCP; 15 Apr 86 05:57:46 EST
Date: 14 Apr 86 0914-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #74
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Clarke & Russell & Simak &
                         Tolkien (2 msgs) & Vinge & 
                         Zelazny & Funny SF,
                 Television - Buck Rogers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: athena!dalel@caip.rutgers.edu (Dale Lehmann)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 12 Apr 86 00:37:57 GMT

gcc@ssc-vax.UUCP (Greg C Croasdill) writes:
>I have yet to read the book 2010, so I don't know what sort of BS
>they put in there, but, HAL in 2001 came from a left-shift
>modification from a current day main frame computer company (if you
>guess right, then you win a blue suit :-|}

Wrong!  While "IBM" can indeed be transformed to "HAL" by
substituting the next preceding letters, that is not the origin of
the name.

HAL stands for "Heuristically-programmed ALgorithmic computer"; I
believe this was noted in the movie.  It's been a long time, though,
and I can't remember for sure.  However, I definitely remember
seeing equipment with the Itty Bitty Monster's blue logo on it, and
several aerospace companies' names were also prominently displayed;
so why would they need to come up with that obtuse reference to IBM?

Dale Lehmann UUCP: ...!tektronix!teklds!dalel Tektronix, Inc.
USMail: P.O. Box 4600, Beaverton, Oregon 97075

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 13 Apr 86 02:08:57 GMT

pincus@calma.UUCP (Jon Pincus) writes:
>... Eric Frank Russell's stuff -- particularly "Plus X" (novelized
>in an old Ace Double as _The Space Willies_) /// is really funny
>("Plus X" is in the excellent collection _4 for the Future_, edited
>by Groff Conklin).

The `full' story has finally been printed in the U.S., under the
title _Next of Kin_, ISBN 0-345-32761-6, by Del Rey, a division of
Ballantine Books, which is itself a divison of Random House.  The
copyright page indicates that the book has been released in Canada
as well.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: umnstat!roy@caip.rutgers.edu (Roy St.Laurent)
Subject: Clifford Simak (long)
Date: 8 Apr 86 18:45:20 GMT

The following article appeared in the Minneapolis Star and Tribune
on Monday, March 17:

                Clifford Simak's a real spellbinder
                           by Jim Fuller

It is fitting that Clifford Simak can work a certain kind of magic.

A grand master of science fiction and fantasy, one of perhaps a
dozen world- acclaimed writers who lifted the genre from comic book
simplicity into the realms of art and philosophy, he has written
more than 40 books about wondrous things -- intelligent beings from
other star systems, sensitive robots, creatures to whom magic is an
everyday tool.

His own magic lies in his ability to turn a visitor's attention from
his physical infirmities to subjects of greater significance.  He
can lead the listener effortlessly to important matters too often
forgotten.  So engaging is his conversation that it displaces
awareness of age and other physical facts of the moment.

Simak -- "Cliff" to everyone who knows him -- is 81 and rather
frail.  Age got a grip on him a few years ago, and it has squeezed
him hard during the past four or five years.  For much of that time
he has suffered from leukemia.  He's "holding it at arm's length,"
and his doctors say it will not shorten his life, but it has gnawed
some of the meat from his bones and sapped his energy.  Climbing
stairs takes considerable effort, and winter locks him inside his
home because "old bones break easily, and knit very badly."  In
December, Agnes (known to friends and family as Kay), his wife of 56
years, died after a long illness.

While the death of his wife was profoundly painful, Simak presents
the other details of his recent life simply as facts.  He talks
about age and illness only because he is asked, because as one who
spent 47 years as a newspaper reporter, he knows that the questions
must be asked, and it is his way to be open and honest.  He talks,
too, about friends he's not seen for several years, voicing concern
and asking questions.

But with minimal prompting, he'll guide a listener into the kind of
mental probing that has been his habit since, as a youth in
southwestern Wisconsin, he was inspired by unfettered writers such
as Edgar Allan Poe and H.G. Wells.

He attended the University of Wisconsin briefly, but left to become
a reporter, and educated himself through his work and voracious
reading, which he did "because I was extrememly interested" is
science, philosophy and much more.

He thinks not only about what the future may hold, but also about
how we live now, how we interact with our environment, what makes us
happy and unhappy.

For instance, Simak's most successful novel, "City," published in
1952, suggests that cities, as such, will have no place in the world
of the future and in fact already are outmoded.  Some of his
characters -- highly evolved dogs -- can scarcely believe that such
a thing ever could have existed.

He said he believes now more than ever that "Cities are outmoded,
have outlived their usefulness.  With the development of shopping
centers, the excuse for the existence of cities disappeared," he
said firmly, and the advent of personal computers has made them even
less useful.  "There is no sense now to rushing into the city en
masse, using up gas, fraying nerves.  If we didn't have a city now,
we certainly wouldn't build one."

On other questions he is less certain.  He sometimes has been called
a religious writer, although he said he doesn't see himself as one.
Several of his books have dealt with the frequent conflict between
faith and science and/or technology.  The 1972 novel "A Choice of
Gods" chronicles several groups of characters, each of which has in
effect chosen its own god or set of gods.  The book suggests that
the only group to make the wrong choice was the one that put its
faith in technology.

"I have always thought of myself as a Christian, but I couldn't
prove it," he said.  "I have always wondered about the birth of the
universe."

As one who has spent much of his life writing about science, as
reporter and author of fiction, he has given much thought to the Big
Bang theory, which suggests that a mass of energy became more and
more compressed until it exploded, sending out bits of matter and
energy that evolved into the universe as we now know it.

"Supposedly there was nothing before," Simak said, tilting his head
and staring thoughtfully at a point in the upper air of the room.
"Before the explosion there was no time, just this egg of energy
getting tighter and tighter, hotter and hotter -- but where did it
come from?  The idea that there was no time before the bang is
awfully hard to swallow....

"If somebody pointed me in the right direction, I'd probably be a
very religious person, but I haven't found that right direction.  I
doubt if the human race will ever know why we're here or how the
universe started."

But he noted, "There are all those questions: Where do we come from?
What's our purpose?  Are we watched over by some supreme being?  Are
we owned?"

A writer, he said, can do almost anything starting with such
profound unknowns.

In fact, it is just such a question that lies at the core of a new
Simak novel, to be published in June.  He started the book about
four years ago, and completed it last June.

Called "Highway of Eternity," it is a novel with a big theme, that
there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, an approach for
which Simak is famous.  More, it assumes that "Life was a matrix on
which intelligence could be built."  It deals with the question of
whether this is a closed or open universe -- that is, a universe
that will remain basically what and where it is, or one that is
spreading out, dissipating.

"If it is dissipating, then eventually it will cease to exist, and
so why should we have that intelligence to begin with, if it is just
going to end?"  he asked.

Obviously, he said, the book is "very philosophical."  But, he
quickly added, "I tried to write it in terms people can understand.
The big concept is not unusual in science fiction.  The secret is to
fill it with good characters, then, when you have good characters,
don't hold them to a set pattern.  The characters will take the
story and run with it.  That sounds silly as hell, but it happens."

It has been happening nicely for Simak since 1931 -- excepting the
one bad year in the early 1940s when he suffered from the only
writer's block of his career.  Rather than "sitting and raging
within myself," he turned during that year to churning out formula
Western stories for pulp magazines.

He produced more than 20 novels, hundreds of short stories and four
nonfiction science books for teenagers before he retired in 1976, at
72, from the Minneapolis Tribune.  He had spent 37 years on the
Tribune and The Minneapolis Star, and 10 years before that on small
Midwestern newspapers.  He wrote the books, he told co-workers, by
going home each evening and writing "a sentence, a paragraph, a page
at a time."

Since retiring he has written about a dozen books, making a total of
about 40, many of them published in several countries.  All but one,
"a horrible book" he will not allow anyone to publish, are still in
print.  "You count the first dozen books, and then it doesn't matter
anymore," he said.

While his science fiction pieces deal with the so-called big themes,
his fantasy stories often are light, sometimes slyly funny.  His
central characters, however, inevitably are ordinary, even simple,
people -- or creatures.

The characters are ordinary people, he said, "because I know them
best.  All the people I write about have prototypes somewhere.  I
can understand them, I know them and I like them.  They are simple
people who, when they say something, are sincere, and when they say
something they say it in language everyone can understand."

That basic approach to writing no longer is unusual in science
fiction, but it was almost unheard of when Simak entered the field.
Science fiction meant mad scientists, and frequent battles with
fantastic weapons and lots of planet hopping.

From the start, Simak violated the rules, writing about real people,
rather than pure science.  He and two contemporaries, Jack
Williamson and Edmund Hamilton, began about the same time to show,
as Simak said, the effects of science on common people.  They were
joined by others, writers like Robert Heinlein, Gordon Dickson, Fred
Pohl, Isaac Asimov, Damon Knight and Ray Bradbury.  Together, they
changed the face and form of science fiction.

Simak's awards are on the mantel in a room that isn't used much.
There are three Hugo awards, regarded as the Oscar of science
fiction writing.  There is the International Fantasy award, for
"City."  There is the Grand Master award from the Science Fiction
Writers of America for a short story, "Grotto of the Dancing Deer,"
which was named the best short story of 1980 by the same group.
There is a plaque commemorating his induction into the Science
Fiction Hall of Fame.

Simak was more interested in talking about "Highway of Eternity,"
the book to be published in June.

"It just might be the best work I've ever done," he said.  Then,
after a pause, he added, "I have a horrible feeling it will be my
last book."

He has not been writing of late.  Most of his time now is spent in
reading -- Proust, Thoreau, Washington Irving and other great
writers -- and in sorting, filing and generally ordering notes,
letters and other papers accumulated through the years.

There is one more book he wants to write, he said, if he can regain
some strength.  If not, he figures he can use the same concept to
produce a series of short stories.

"I'd like a few more years, but if it doesn't happen, I won't do any
moaning about it.  I'll be content to be slipped into the crypt next
to Kay.  I've been able to do much more in my life than I ever
thought I would."

As he talked through a long afternoon, though, and spoke of the
writing he still wants to do, Simak's energy seemed to increase.
His voice strengthened, and even climbing a set of stairs seemed
easier.

"My preference is to continue to write," he said.  "I will, if I
can."

end of article

Roy St. Laurent ...ihnp4!umn-cs!umnstat!roy

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Those who believe in courtesy...
Date: 9 Apr 86 21:07:34 GMT

oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
>>"Those who believe in courtesy (at least) to living authors will
>>not touch this gobbler with a ten foot pole."
>
>  Ever since I first read the above, I wondered what it meant.

    As the one who used the above misquote as a signature quote, I
should explain.  I was quoting from the back cover of BORED OF THE
RINGS, an excellent parody on LOTR by National Lampoon when they
were still the Harvard Lampoon, from memory, and didn't get it quite
right.  This article closes with the correct quotation, which
parodies Tolkien's statement on the back of the Ballantine
authorized edition, in full.

pH

"A STATEMENT FROM THE AUTHORS ABOUT THIS LAMPOON EDITION this
paperback edition, and no other, has been published solely for the
purpose of making a few fast bucks.  Those who approve of courtesy
to a certain author will not touch this gobbler with a ten-foot
battle-lance."

------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Date: 9 Apr 86 18:57:24 GMT

I've been reading "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" on and off for the
last month or so (I knock off one or two before bed). If you are
curious about Tolkien himself ar about some of the ins and outs of
the writing of LOTR this is interesting reading.  It includes some
insight into the underpinnings of LOTR that I haven't seen elsewhere
and even some comments on the reception the book first recieved.
It's a mixture of letters to friends, his son, Christopher, his
publisher and miscellaneous others.  I don't know about
availability. I picked it up on a remainder table for a song.

------------------------------

To: KW Heuer <bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Peace War
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 86 12:03:10 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>

The idea of keeping small bobbles around for protection was
certainly covered in the book.  A bobble in one's pocket doesn't
prevent a bobble from being placed around one's head, etc.  They
developed complex "embobbling"(??) devices...

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: Sun 13 Apr 86 11:17:28-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: AMBER

Nine Princes in Amber
The Guns of Avalon
The Sign of the Unicorn
The Hand of Oberon
The Courts of Chaos

Trumps of Doom
    ? ? ?
    . . .

Note that Trumps of Doom is a different plot line following the
adventures of Merlin, son of Corwin.

Laurence

------------------------------

From: daemen!boyce@caip.rutgers.edu (DWB)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 13 Apr 86 02:47:06 GMT

You might want to read Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series.
Thought it's not written to be humorous it is interlaced with humor.

Doug Boyce   Daemen College, Buffalo NY
UUCP : decvax!sunybcs!daemen!boyce  or  ihnp4!kitty!daemen!boyce
ARPA : boyce%buffalo@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 13 Apr 1986 15:49:34-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Buck Rogers

        I was watching an episode of Buck Rogers in the 25th Century
the other night and whilst Buck was at the spaceport they called
over the intercom:

"Captain Christopher Pike please report to Veterans Affairs Office"

Maybe you had to be there, but I thought it was interesting :-).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 86 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #75
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:

              Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Clarke & Lem &
                      McKiernan & Vinge & 
                      Shared Worlds (2 msgs) &
                      Funny SF,
              Films - Eyes of Fire,
              Television - The BBC,
              Miscellaneous - Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 11:29 CST
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Jhereg (msg by Duane Morse)
To: anasazi!duane@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

My opinion in regards to Jhereg by Steven Brust is just the opposite
of yours.  I found the book to be excellent, and the Jhereg to be an
important addition.  The humor of the story would be much reduced
without the banter between Vlad and his Jhereg.  As far as the
separation between the prologue and the main story is concerned, the
intervening life of Vlad is immaterial to the story Brust is
telling.  Oh, this is a fantasy story if you didn't notice, so there
is no off-planet culture.

BTW, this is the first book Brust wrote in this setting.  Yendi is a
prequel (a book written later, that details events that occur
before) that may fit niche you're looking for.  Yendi tells the
story of Vlad's rise from a small time operator to a much bigger
territory.  It also tells how the he fell in love with the women who
assassinated him.  (* no spoiler necessary, that's on the cover
blurb and in the prologue.  *)

I find the world, the politics, the characters, the magic, and the
action in these books fascinating.  I found it very hard to put
down.

I give it 3.5 stars, and as a SF collector, would keep it for
re-reading, lending to friends, etc., and have recommended it to
many.  (BTW, I keep anything that rates above 1 star.)

Brett Slocum --(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 12:09:18 PST
From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: JHEREG by Steven Brust
Cc: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu

>  The second was his constant companion, a young jhereg, its
>  leathery wings and poisonous teeth always at Vlad's command, its
>  alien mind psionically linked with his own [...]
>
> From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays
> a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an
> interesting alien. Both assumptions are false. How alien can a
> creature be when it's main contribution in a dialogue is of the
> order of "Jeez, boss!"?

I don't see why you think the jhereg would play a major role
(besides, why blame Brust for the excesses of an overactive blurb
writer?).  It may not be a critical part of the story, but I found
the way Brust wrote it in as official second banana to be
interesting and humourous.

> The story starts out very uneven. In the first few pages we meet
> Vlad as a boy and learn how he "imprinted" the jhereg. Then, with
> no explanation, he is an adult, head of a successful assassin's
> syndicate.  I presume that a previous book by the author covers
> the intervening years, but there's no mention of this in the
> story.

I disagree. Brust built up enough background to give you some
context on the society and the characters, and then jumped into the
fray. In both Jhereg and Yendi he flashes back into history when he
needs to make a point or clarify something.  If he'd stopped and
taken the time to write the whole life of Vlad, he would have ended
up with a 12 volume book, most of it probably boring...

> The setting is interesting, though the author never makes clear
> the relationship between the cultures on the planet those
> off-planet.

I think you missed something here -- unless I really misread the
books, there is no off-planet culture here. the two cultures are
geographically separated, no more.  Perhaps that is part of your
dissatisfaction with this book -- it isn't SF, but straight fantasy.
come to think of it, everything I've read from Steven is Fantasy.

> I give this book 2.5 stars (good, but I'll trade it in next time
> around).

I rate it much higher, around 4 or so. I think you might have read
expectations into the book that weren't there.

chuq

------------------------------

From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 13 Apr 86 23:48:06 GMT

> I have yet to read the book 2010, so I don't know what sort of BS
> they put in there, but, HAL in 2001 came from a left-shift
> modification from a current day main frame computer company (if
> you guess right, then you win a blue suit :-|}

According to Arthur C. Clarke, he and Kubrick came up with HAL as
standing for "Heuristic Algorithmic Logic" (or something like that),
and didn't notice the "ROT1" resemblance to IBM until after the
movie came out, when it was pointed out to them by their fans.
Interestingly, IBM helped Clarke and Kubrick pick out the name, but
Clarke doesn't say how much help that was.  I think the relationship
is more likely coincidence than contrivance.

Ed Falk, sun microsysstem

------------------------------

From: steinmetz!putnam@caip.rutgers.edu (jefu)
Subject: Re: Re: alive computers
Date: 12 Apr 86 10:22:32 GMT

Several years ago (around 1980) the New Yorker published a short
story by Stanislaw Lem about artificially intelligent critters
'living' inside a computer and musing about their creator.  This
description is rather fuzzy as I have not been able to find a copy
of the thing.

Does anyone have more information?  The exact issue of the New
Yorker would help.  I have noticed some new Lem paperbacks recently
but didnt see this in any of them, does anyone know if it has been
reprinted?

jefu
UUCP: {rochester,edison}!steinmetz!putnam
ARPA: putnam@GE-CRD

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 13:58:42 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  Brooks/McKiernan <FLAME ON!>

>I'm suprised that discussion about Tolkein has gone on this long
>without mentioning Terry Brook's SWORD OF SHANNARA. It is such a
>blatant rip-off of LotR that it is not funny. We have analogues of
>the Nazgul,Sauron,Gandalf, Aragorn....this list goes on.

At least they're only analogs.  Dennis McKiernan's Iron Tower
Trilogy is not only blatant it's badly written.  Direct rip-offs,
like an elf named Gildor; near-direct rip-offs, like little people
who are good at missile weapons who live peacefully in a rural
environment (there's a female in this one, though -- do I detect
Smurf-ette syndrome?), a dark lord named Modru, Wargs (except
they're Vulgs in this one...) and a realm named Mithgar (well, maybe
he borrowed from the same tradition as Tolkien, after all, there's
also a pseudo-Anglo-Saxon High Speech).  An ending that's
deliberately unhappily happy (if you can parse that).  And besides
that, "unnecessary roughness" (Oo!  I haven't killed any of the
major characters in six pages -- time for another cute little Warrow
to bite the dark!), mindless doggerel ("We are Thornwalkers/
Thornwalkers are we"), and worst of all, a plot dragged out into
three books that would have fit comfortably into one, just for the
sake of having a Trilogy Like Tolkien's.

Give me a break.  Preferably not in any of my extremities.  In
short: Gag.  Stay away.

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: The Peace War (was: alive computers)
Date: 11 Apr 86 17:16:19 GMT

kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes:
>One strategy occurred to me, but apparently not to the author.
>Since bobbles can't be bobbled, can't one protect oneself from
>embobblement by keeping a small bobble in one's pocket at all
>times?  It wouldn't prevent decapitation, but it should have
>defended against the long-range embobblements, right?

I had always assumed that the bobble jammer mentioned near the end
of the book worked by this method.  But even this wouldn't protect
you against some of the more nasty things you could do with a
bobbler.

For example: try shot-gunning a volume with lots of 1cm 1/100 sec
duration bobbles centered around the target using some nice volume
filling random walk.  Makes instant mince-meat out of anything in
the volume.  You wouldn't even care if some of the bobbles didn't
get created because of overlap, if you could make them fast enough.
NOTE: this effect would also make a good tunneling or digging
method.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Shared-world Anthologies
Date: 12 Apr 86 13:31:03 GMT

boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>And last, but not least, there is BERSERKER BASE, which is an
>anthology of separate Berserker stories by various authors that are
>sort of cemented together with interstitial material by Fred
>Saberhagen.

    As long as you're going to include worlds which had previously
been the domain of a single author, who later invited other authors
in, we should then mention THE MAGIC MAY RETURN and MORE MAGIC,
edited by Larry Niven and set in his "Warlock" universe.  Or did
somebody already mention them?  If so, I apologise.

pH

------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 Apr 86 12:29:50-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shared Worlds

   You could also consider the Cthulhu Mythos stories a shared-world
series, although it wasn't intended that way.  It's even flakier and
less consistent of tone than the others, ranging from very good
horror to very bad adventure/sf.

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 14 Apr 86 03:32:20 GMT

bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes:

One good series is the Mythadventures, by Robert Asprin.  It's being
turned into a great set of comics by Phil Foglio at WaRP graphics,
too.

The series goes:
Another Fine Myth
Myth Conceptions    (May have these two
Myth Directions      confused in order)
Hit or Myth
Myth-ing Persons
Little Myth Marker
For sf, try The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, by Douglas Adams.
The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Life, the Universe, and Everything
So Long and Thanks For All the Fish
        Also the book _Mallworld_ by Somtow Sucharitkul is a great
far-far-future one.  _The Flying Sorcerers_ by Larry Niven and [I
forget] is funny, especially when you have a collection of our
discussions on the names in there.

Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: EYES OF FIRE
Date: 12 Apr 86 20:27:15 GMT

      EYES OF FIRE: Things that Go (Natty) Bumpo in the Night
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

         Capsule review: An unusual horror film set in pre-
     Revolutionary back-woods America.  After a shaky start, this
     horror film has some unexpected thrills as settlers move into
     a valley cursed by Indians whose spirits live inside trees.
     Not always coherent, but often surprising.

     Somebody once described war as being sheer boredom punctuated
by moments of stark terror.  That's not a bad description for EYES
OF FIRE, a rather unconventional horror film.  To begin with, it is
set in the forests of pre-Revolutionary America.  It has been a good
long time since I have seen ANY film with that historical setting.
A genuine horror film set in "Last of the Mohican" country is a real
oddity.

     A preacher who has spent some time in a backwoods community has
soured his welcome by fooling around with one of the local women.
He is saved from hanging by the daughter of a witch whom he has
taken in and who appears to have some of her mother's talent.  The
preacher, his paramour, her children, the witch's daughter, and
assorted hangers-on set off to find a better place.  Instead, they
discover a hidden valley cursed by Shawnee Indians whose souls live
in trees that at times take on human faces.  As our intrepid band
are establishing a settlement they start facing dangers that old
Dan'l Boone never imagined.  Bloody corpses read out of the ground,
swamp creatures grab the unwary, children get sucked into trees,
Indian bands in various degrees of undress appear from nowhere,
attack, and disappear.

     This is clearly not a glossy, professionally finished film.
But, as films like NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD, CARNIVAL OF SOULS, or
LEMORA have demonstrated in the past, horror is one genre in which a
film can overcome rock-bottom budgets and even high-school acting to
still be effective.  I liked POLTERGEIST but, frankly, this film is
often just as effective and the whole film probably cost no more
than one or two scenes of the Spielberg film.

     In spite of its slow start, give EYES OF FIRE a +1 on the -4 to
+4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: BBC Wars
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 10:25:14 PST

        Rumblings have been appearing regularly about how "The Beeb"
is going to cancel Dr. Who, or The Tripods, or even The Queen, for
all I know.  Many have called for letter-writing campaigns, or
demonstrations, or blood in the streets.  I don't think it'll do any
good.  "The Beeb" has always been pretty independent of anyone,
including the constituency of Parliament, which after all pays the
bills.

        I think there are other, more practical alternatives.  For
one thing, the Arts & Entertainment Network, which includes the
now-demised Entertainment Channel, has entered into several
co-production agreements with the BBC.  Conceivably they could take
over production of proven profit-makers (proven in America, anyway).
Or, consider WGBH in Boston, often referred to as "God's own PBS
Station", lording it over Channel 2 while other paeons in the PBS
world sit around 13 or 28 or somewhere - they produce any number of
shows all by themselves, and consortiums of WGBH, WQED, KQED, KCET
and other biggies could conceivably take over production.  At the
risk of the usual incendiary response, I'll point out that the PBS
production of "The Lathe of Heaven" proves that they CAN do good
work...if the way has already been pointed out to the, as with Dr.
Who and ilk, the chances for success are that much greater.  And
with shows of proven popularity in America, their chances of getting
enough viewers and contributions to "make their nut back" is much
higher.  Of course, this comes at the cost of genuine, original
production that wouldn't be made, but PBS doesn't do that many
series anyway.

        In short, I counsel the good old American Way - buy the
suckers out.

------------------------------

From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Typographical Errors
Date: 14 Apr 86 00:38:21 GMT

cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) writes:
>I have just read Jo Clayton's latest book, Drinker of Souls, which
>is published by DAW.  It is excellent, but the typography is a
>disaster.  'Thought' for 'though' is a typographical error that
>brought my reading to a complete stop while I worked out what was
>meant, and there are many other, equally bad errors.

It looks like the publishing world has abandoned manual proofreading
in favor of word processing and spell checking.  These sort of word
substitution errors are what I find in things I key in, if one goes
back a day or so later and then tries to proofread again.

It could be the author, or some paid by the keystroke entry person
at the the publisher.  If you compare publishers, you can see who
still spends money on proofreading, at least on SF.  Some houses
would probably be just as happy if they could feed a diskette into
the printing press and never touch the contents.

Now, if only they can upgrade from PC's to Unix, so they can use
some of the Writers Workbench software, perhaps things will improve.

George Robbins - now working with, but no way officially
representing Commodore, Engineering Department
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 86 1108-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony & Brunner & Chalker & Goldman &
                  King & Laumer & Lem & Lovecraft &
                  O'Donnell & Funny SF (6 msgs) &
                  Authors Who Use Animals &
                  An Author Request & An Answer,
          Television - The People & The New Twilight Zone

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Battle Circle
Date: 14 Apr 86 07:32:21 GMT

Could whoever posted the recommendation for Piers Anthony's Battle
Circle series also post the names (and sequence) of these books, and
maybe a short synopsis?  Also, are they still in print?

Brian Yamauchi
yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15-Apr-1986 0913
From: lionel%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Fencing

It's been a while since I've read "The Shockwave Rider", but I
distinctly recall on the copyright page a notice where Brunner
reserved all rights to the game "Fencing".  This probably indicates
that it is NOT directly from a previously published game, and should
be considered if anyone is thinking of implementing the game for
profit.  I also recall from discussions in SF-L about 5 years ago
that some people considered the description of the game in the book
incomplete.  To me, it never sounded half as exciting as Brunner
made it out to be.

Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 EDT
From: <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
Subject: RE: Alive Computers

  I dont think anyone has remembered Jack Chalker's _Well_World_
series.  In it we have two computers of awsome power.  Obie is the
computer that is the size of a small planetoid and the Well World
itself is a single computer.  While the Well World is the computer
that has created the entire universe, and is the most powerful
computer that I have ever seen written of, I do not think it is
alive.  Obie on the other hand, while being the most powerful
computer that humans or any other non-marcotian(sp?) race has built,
is Self aware.  I dont know if Chalker is trying to get any point
across with this.  I dont think so, but it does go to say that a
super- powerful computer does not *need* to be self aware.

Bob Mende
Snail:   BPO 20187             ARPA : MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU
         Piscataway NJ         UUCP : topaz!aim!mende
         08854                 Phone: (201) 878-0602
                               CMS  : rutgers!mende

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Poll (whoops)
Date: 14 Apr 86 21:31:01 GMT

Shame on me for posting in a hurry ... before you flamers boot,

The Princess Bride is by Wm. Goldman, not Golding.  The fingers,
     they is not what they used to be.

For you _Bride_ fans, there is another book out by the immortal
S.Morgenstern (at least I got that right ;-), The Silent
Gondolier(s).  I haven't gotten to it yet, but my husband gives it
an ok.  Not as good as _Princess Bride_, but a fun read if you want
to spend a couple hours (is short).  [**+]

Again, sorry for the typo.

Barb

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: Cassette version of "The Mist"?
Date: 14 Apr 86 16:08:08 GMT

I don't know about a cassette of a "reading" of King's "The Mist",
but there was a radio production of the story done as part of the
series, "The Cabinet of Dr. Fritz", by the well-known ZBS Studios,
which was aired on National Public Radio and will probably come back
around again, as those things always do... It was done in a
surround-sound binaural format, designed for listening on
headphones, and the effects were fairly good. ZBS' stuff is
available on cassette; you should be able to get their 800 number
from your local NPR-affiliated public radio station.

Will

------------------------------

From: stephen@datacube
Subject: Warning: Lark's vomit
Date: 13 Apr 86 04:05:00 GMT

Being a little miffed, I decided to post the following sleazy bit of
marketing:

I was at my local WaldenBooks today, and saw a new Retief novel,
"Retief and the PanGalactic Pageant of Pulchitrude", on the shelf.
After purchasing this novel, I discovered the title referred to a
relatively poor short story, and the rest was the novel "Retief's
Ransom", which I had read already in another anthology currently in
print. Careful examination of the outside of the book revealed on
the back, towards the bottom, the legend "Plus: the full length
novel, Retief's Ransom". No mention is made of this fact on the
front cover.  The publisher, incidently, is Baen Books. I present
this information as a public service, and hope that other netters
who come across such tactics will post them here soonest.

Stephen Watkins                    UUCP: ihnp4!datacube!stephen
Datacube Inc.; 4 Dearborn Rd.; Peabody, Ma. 01960; 617-535-6644

------------------------------

From: dupuy@garfield.columbia.edu (Alex Dupuy)
Subject: Re: Re: alive computers
Date: 14 Apr 86 23:40:39 GMT

putnam@kbsvax.UUCP (jefu) writes:
>Several years ago (around 1980) the New Yorker published a short
>story by Stanislaw Lem about artificially intelligent critters
>'living' inside a computer and musing about their creator.

The story is called "Non Serviam", and can be found in Lem's book "A
Perfect Vacuum" a collection of reviews of non-existent books.  The
story, and the book, are excellent, and I recommend both highly.  I
remember seeing the New Yorker version, but can't remember the
issue; however, I read it first in December of 1981, so it would
predate that by a few months.

alex

------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 Apr 86 16:57:34-EST
From: AD0R@TB.CC.CMU.EDU
Subject: Lovecraft / Necrinomicon

I've seen a book toted as the Necronomicon in the backs of magazines
for sale for $50 in a leather-bound, gilt edition.  It didn't
mention HPL at all.  It just promised riches and loose women and
such.  Kind of hilarious, actually.  They showed a picture of it,
and I think it had a pentagram on the cover.  I've been told that
the psuedo-necronomicons being sold are random collections of
Sumerian myths.

Anthony A. Datri
Carnegie Mellon University, a subsidary of IBM
ad0r@tb.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 Apr 86 13:46:13-PST
From: Robert Pratt <P.PRATT@LOTS-C.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Intelligent computers and networks

A book that I'm surprised no one has mentioned {or I missed it} is
Oracle, by Kevin O'Donnell. I really quite enjoyed it. It has a
network of experts on almost every topic known tied together, who
answer questions for a price. I don't know if the network control
program was aware or not, but from what I remember it could very
well have been.

Bob P.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 12:20:32 PST
From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re:I Want FUNNY f & sf
Cc: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU

> Here's one I haven't seen on the net before:
>
> Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science
> fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by
> Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same
> vein.

It's been covered, but not for a while -- always a welcome subject
with me, though....

The first book I think of is "The Flying Sorcerers" by Larry Niven
and David ("I don't look like a Tribble!") Gerrold. It basically
reads like someone got the two of them stoned and locked them in a
room with a typewriter.

Most of the Callahan's Bar series by Spider Robinson has a LOT of
humor in it, usually edged with a fair amount of pathos in the
stories themselves as Spider likes to take a serious look at life
while making jokes around the edge.  Not recommended if you hate
puns.  There are two books out currently ("Callahan's Crosstime
Saloon" and "Time Travellers Carry Cash") with a third volume (title
forgotten, but I saw the cover this weekend at Other Change of
Hobbit and its cute!) due out in July.

Randall Garrett has written a number of funny things. His Lord Darcy
series ("Murder and Magic", "Lord Darcy Investigates" and one other
that slips my mind) is an alternate history where magic works and
physics is ignored.  Each story is a Holmesian murder mystery solved
by Lord Darcy of His Majesties investigative core and his loyal
sidekick magician.  Most of the titles are rather rude puns.

A second book, not very well known and probably out of print, is
"Take Off!"  in which Garrett has written pastiches of most major SF
authors and their works in the style of the author themselves.  I
lost my copy a while back (anyone know where I can get another????)
but it was VERY funny.

The Myth Adventure books by Robert Asprin are sidesplitting. there
are seven or eight now, the latest being "Little Myth Marker."  Each
one has the word Myth in the title.

I know I'm missing some works, but those come to mind offhand.
Should be a good start!

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 17:10:48 est
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Humorous SF request

Ah, humorous SF; I love the stuff. Pity there isn't much of it going
around. Some that I read:

  Next of Kin, by Eric Frank Russel.
  Some scenes, especially before "the action" starts (a terran scout
  behind enemy lines, in an interstellar war), are really good
  enough to make you laugh out loud. "Baloney baffles brains".

  Master of Space and Time, by Rudi Rucker.
  Not as funny as the cover blurb says, but acceptable.

  (assorted short stories), by Frederic Brown.
  Sometimes humor, sometimes horror, but I like Fred Brown.

Watch out for Eric Frank Russel's books. They are being reprinted
this year. Note that "Wasp", by EFR, was already reprinted. The plot
idea is vaguely similar to "Next of Kin", but it's a different story
(not so funny, still a good read).

Tony
abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu
ECE Dept, Carnegie-Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 10 Apr 86 23:20:38 GMT

    In small doses, I like Harry Harrison's STAINLESS STEEL RAT
books for humorous sf, and Robert Asprin's MYTHADVENTURES books for
humorous fantasy.  (It was said in this group that the series had
taken a downturn with the most recent volume, LITTLE MYTH MARKER; I
haven't read it yet so I can't really say.)

pH

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 14 Apr 86 22:19:04 GMT

>Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like "And the
>devil....". I don't rember the title off hand but it had Asmodues
>as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes.

That's "And the Devil Will Drag You Under" - I second this
suggestion.  I also agree with the recommendations for Asprin's
MythAdventures and The Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp &
Fletcher Pratt. You may also like "The Incredible Umbrella" by
Marvin Kaye, and "The Goblin Reservation" by Clifford Simak. Another
good author to try would be Robert Sheckley, especially "Mindswap"
or "Dimension of Miracles".

------------------------------

From: gladys!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 14 Apr 86 23:30:02 GMT

Try Keith Laumer's _Retief_ "series" of books.  They are written
with tongue firmly in cheek.

Bob White                  : ihnp4!burl!gladys!bob
5123 Ramillie Run          : Winston-Salem, NC  27106

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 15 Apr 86 20:58:22 EST
From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ a.psy.cmu.edu
Subject: funny SF

I can't believe that Dark Star has been left off the list.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 86 01:06 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: animals animals animals

I'm working on the topic of intelligent animals and how they've been
handled by different authors. I'd be interested in seeing who's your
favorite 'animal handler' and why. All with thoughts toward a
comparison article in the future.

c78kck@irishmvs

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 EDT
From: <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Who wrote this Short Story?

  I have a question.  I was describing the following story to a
friend of mine and I said that I thought it was written by someone,
but I could not remember who.  I read it at least 5-10 years ago.
It is real short, so I will post it.  If you do know who wrote it
please reply...

   When man first built the first univac computer the Engineer gave
it a problem to solve.  They asked it the meaning of life.  The
computer blew many a tube on this question and finally came up with
the answer, "Insufficient data to answer question."
   When the computer was first networked across the entire world,
two philosphers were having a heated argument about the meaning of
life.  They decided to ask the network what it thought, even though
they would not accept this as truth.  The computer said it would
have to analyze this question and proceeded to chew up half of the
computers resources for a number of weeks.  It finally responded
that it had searched all known aspects of human life, but there was
"Insufficient data to answer the question."
   Many Years later, the ultimate computer was built.  It existed in
deep space and could telepathically contact any living person, and
one day two young lovers were sitting under the stars, enjoying the
moonlight.  Their discussion winded to the meaning of life, and like
many of their generation. they just asked the computer.  The
computer, in a split second replied "Insufficient data to answer
question."  but the two lovers would not take this for an answer.
So they told the computer to try until it could answer the question.
   For many many years the computer thought about the question and
gave all of its free time to it.  And one day, the computer had the
answer!  So it swept out telepathically to tell the entire human
race of its wonderful discovery.  But there was no one left.  The
entire human race had died many years before when the sun had
exploded.  The computer had orders to inform humans of the answer to
this question.  So the telepathic thoughts of the computer swept out
covering much of the universe.  There was only darkness.  And the
computer said "Let there be light."  And there was light, and it was
good ...

Bob Mende
Snail:   BPO 20187             ARPA : MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU
         Piscataway NJ         UUCP : topaz!aim!mende
         08854                 Phone: (201) 878-0602
                               CMS  : rutgers!mende

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: Who wrote this Short Story?
Date: 15 Apr 86 17:48:00 GMT

Isaac Asimov.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: The People (TV movie)
Date: 14 Apr 86 09:16:07 GMT

> From: well!farren     (Mike Farren)
>
> Still... it was directed by
> Francis Ford Coppola (really!).

Not really. Coppola was Executive Producer; John Korty was Director.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Zelazny story on 4/11 TWILIGHT ZONE
Date: 14 Apr 86 17:54:18 GMT

That's "The Last Defender of Camelot".
I watched this because the opening credits looked good:
    Story by Roger Zelazny
    Adapted by George R. R. Martin
    Starring Jenny Agutter (Remember her in "The Railway Children"
    ?)

I enjoyed it, although it suffered from the usual problem of
realizing fantasy in visual media - other peoples visualizations of
fantasy never quite match your own imagination.  It's a long time
since I read the original story, so I can't say how accurate the
plot-line was.

Did anyone else notice how much Jenny Agutter looks/sounds like a
young Diana Rigg?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Apr 86 0914-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #77
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:

          Books - Lem & Lovecraft & Sucharitkul & Vinge &
                  Wolfe & Zelazny & Funny SF (3 msgs),
          Films - Star Trek IV & The Bride,
          Television - The Twilight Zone & Doctor Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Re: alive computers
Date: 14 Apr 86 14:43:32 GMT

putnam@kbsvax.UUCP (jefu) writes:
>Several years ago (around 1980) the New Yorker published a short
>story by Stanislaw Lem about artificially intelligent critters
>'living' inside a computer and musing about their creator.  This
>description is rather fuzzy as I have not been able to find a copy
>of the thing.
>
>Does anyone have more information?  ...

Yes. As I pointed out recently, this is a 'review' in Lem's book "A
Perfect Vacuum," which is a collection of similar imaginary reviews.
It's available in paperback.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon
Date: 14 Apr 86 21:46:23 GMT

Indeed, there are both English and Arabic versions that have
appeared, both in live//// real advertising and at huxter tables at
cons.  I've seen the English version; can't verify that the Arabic
version is any more coherent.

(Wouldn't it be interesting if somehow someone with a time machine
slipped one back to ol' HPL in the early 20s or whenever, and that
started him into the Cthulu mythos???)

arlan

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Author addresses (Was Somtow Sucharitkul)
Date: 14 Apr 86 19:46:48 GMT

> On behalf of a friend, I am seeking a current address or phone for
> the SF writer Somtow Sucharitkul.  Please contact: Carter Scholz /
> 2665 Virginia / Berkeley CA 94709 / (415) 548-3654
> {hplabs|dual}!well!csz

I do not know Somtow's address (somewhere in Virginia, I believe)
though I know people who do.  My reservation about inquiring on
behalf of your friend is that I wonder about your friend's
motivations.  If simply fen-mailing, can communicate c/o the
publisher.  I think authors, particularly those as busy as Somtow,
deserve to maintain a private life.  If your friend wants him to
guest at a con, that can also be arranged c/o the publisher.
Fenmail addressed to authors at home has been known to be used for
landfill, for reasons I must admit I understand, if not sympathize
with...

Ellen Eades

------------------------------

From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: bobbles
Date: 14 Apr 86 18:44:51 GMT

> One strategy occurred to me, but apparently not to the author.
> Since bobbles can't be bobbled, can't one protect oneself from
> embobblement by keeping a small bobble in one's pocket at all
> times?  It wouldn't prevent decapitation, but it should have
> defended against the long-range embobblements, right?

Uh... this strategy *did* occur to the author.  I'm not sure how you
could have missed it, since in several places people are trying to
out-scheme each other in defensive bobble placement.  For the most
part, it was decided that carrying a defensive bobble in your pocket
was counterproductive, since it would (as you point out) cause your
opponent to resort to partial embobblement, and total embobblement
is preferable, onaccounta it's not nearly so fatal.

In case readers are puzzled by the references to "bobbles", I highly
recommend getting and reading _The_Peace_War_.  Very nicely done, I
thought, but then I like all of Vinge's stuff, some particular
favorites being _The_Witling_ and _True_Names_.  I'm eagerly
awaiting _Marooned_In_Real_Time_ also.

(Hope you folks forgive slipping a mini book list in here... I just
 think that Vinge is largely unappreciated.)

Wayne Throop      <the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 16 Apr 1986 01:53:47-PST
From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: BotNS words

Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words Wolfe
uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find out
more about is "orichalk".

Nigel Roberts

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adsk@caip.rutgers.edu (David S Kerven)
Subject: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Date: 15 Apr 86 15:05:45 GMT

> The correct order for the books is:
>
>       Nine Princes in Amber
>       The Guns of Avalon
>       The Sign of the Unicorn
>       The Hand of Oberon
>       The Courts of Chaos
>
> And of course, the first book of the news series is:
>
>       The Trumps of Doom

The next book in the series is titled:

   Ghostwheel

If anyone knows when this will be published please let me know.

David S. Kerven
ARPANET:ins_adsk%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA
BITNET :ins_adsk@jhunix
        G47I6929@jhuvm
CSNET  :ins_adsk@jhunix.CSNET
USENET :seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_adsk
        allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_adsk

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 15 Apr 86 11:07:06 GMT

bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes:
>Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science
>fiction books?

Well, some of my favorites haven't been mentioned. What about:

  (1) The Absolute at Large, Karel Kapek.
  (2) The Butterfly Kid, Chester Anderson.
  (3) The High Crusade (3 Hearts & 3 Lions) Poul Anderson.
  (4) Lewis Carroll, of course.
  (5) Star Well, Alexi Panshin (1st of series).
  (6) Thorne Smith can be funny at times.
  (7) Martian Go Home by Fred Brown was sort of funny.
  (8) Bored of the Rings if you like parody.
  (9) Tzadick of the Seven Wonders by Habilum was OK.
      He has another humorous novel whose name I forgot.

    Henry Knutter had some funny stuff. People have mentioned Eric
Frank Russell, I like "The Great Explosion" in particular. Someone
mentioned L. Ron Hubbard, I believe he did the thing about someone
trapped in a friend's bad historical novel, because said friend
decided to "put him in". The Hoka stuff and the Enchanter stuff has
also been mentioned, good laughs here. I don't think there are many
solid yucks in the Myth series nor in "The Flying Sorcerers".

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_atnn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thuan N Nguyen)
Subject: More Humorous SF
Date: 15 Apr 86 16:42:06 GMT

     Personally, I find the works of William Tenn to be as humorous
as the stuff by Spider Robinson, Douglas Adams, and the other
authors mentioned.  Tenn stopped writing satirical s-f about 10 or
15 years ago (too bad...).  The works still in print are

   Of Men and Monsters
   The Seven Sexes
   The Square Root of Man
   The Wooden Star

If you're lucky, you might find old copies of these

   The Human Angle
   Of All Possible Worlds

Most of the stories poke fun at our society.  One of my favorite is
"The Party of the Two Parts".  An intelligent alien amoeba is sought
by Galactic police for selling pornography.  The good stuff turns
out to be pictures of mitosis which he sold to a biology teacher on
Earth.  The writing is good.  Really....

Thuan Nguyen

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 15 Apr 86 11:37:20 GMT

  I forgot James Thurber, as in "Thirteen Clocks" and "The Wonderful
O". More updates to follow, probably.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 86 13:39  PST
From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek IV "From the horses mouth"

 This week's Hour 25 featured Harlan Ellison interviewing Walter
Koenig on the general topic of life, the universe, and everything
including Star Trek IV.

 Although he was very coy about any plot details, he did admit that
the story starts 3 months after ST-III and involves time travel.
Their vehicle is the Bird of Prey.  Apparently the traditional cast
are all in it.

 There was also considerable discussion of William Shatner's almost
non-presence, due to excessive demands.  The word is he'll be
directing ST-V, assuming there is one.

P.S. and plug: Listners in Southern California should check out Hour
25, even if you'd previously tasted and rejected it.  Harlan Ellison
has been acting as Co-host, and is exploiting his connections and
expertise to generate high quality interviews.  90.7 FM Fridays,
10PM to midnight.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE BRIDE
Date: 12 Apr 86 20:27:25 GMT

                             THE BRIDE
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Two decidedly unusual people have some
     surprisingly usual adventures.  This continuation of BRIDE OF
     FRANKENSTEIN has a visual beauty but desperately needs an
     infusion of imagination.

     I missed THE BRIDE when it was originally released in the
theaters so I had to wait for it to come out on cassette.  I have
loved horror films all my life and from about seven or eight years
old I have been a Frankenstein film fan.  So it pretty much goes
without saying that I was looking forward to seeing THE BRIDE and
seeing what a modern filmmaker would do with a story derived from
the old Universal horror films.  The premise of THE BRIDE was that
it was something between a remake and a sequel to BRIDE OF
FRANKENSTEIN (1935).

     The first sequence of THE BRIDE is, in fact, a remake of the
last sequence of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN.  The bride is brought to
life only to be repulsed by her intended mate.  The Monster,
rejected even by another monstrosity, destroys the laboratory with a
pyrotechnic flare.  But this time around the monster, the bride, and
the creator all live.  That is the end of the first film, but just
the first sequence of THE BRIDE.  It is, however, the end of the
Frankenstein movie in THE BRIDE.  What remains is a bit of regency
romance, a bit of melodrama, and a disappointingly dull film.  The
story flashes back and forth from the bride's story to the
monster's.  There is little in the film from that point on that
requires the monster to be anything but a large victim of mental
retardation, not unlike Lenny from OF MICE AND MEN.  The bride's
unusual origins are little more relevant to her story, that of her
guardian (Dr. Frankenstein) who secretly lusts for his beautiful
ward (the bride).

     Sting is actually a good choice for playing Dr. Frankenstein,
who should have youth and a touch of insanity.  He is well cast as
Charles Frankenstein (Charles???).  Now I bet you thought his name
was Victor (or, if one followed the Universal horror films, Henry).
Actually, in this film Victor is the monster's name!  In the book,
of course, the monster's name was Adam.  He isn't called Adam here,
but the bride is called Eva.  In the book she was not around long
enough to have a name.  That's a pity.  If her name had been Charles
or maybe Charlotte there would have been a nice symmetry with the
film.

     Anyway, the first sequence is worth seeing.  Beyond that the
film's lack of imagination will make you hanker for the old Boris
Karloff days.  THE BRIDE shows that with the means to make more
imaginative films, some filmmakers are still making less imaginative
films.  Rate it a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: gardner@rochester.ARPA (Paul Gardner)
Subject: Name these TZ episodes
Date: 15 Apr 86 20:26:53 GMT

Does anyone have a listing of the titles (with or without synopsis)
of the new Twilight Zone episodes? In particular I'd like to know
the titles of the episodes described below:

The Kennedy episode. A historian from the future visits Dallas in
1963 to witness an assassination. He saves the President and hell
breaks loose in the form of a disrupted time line.

The Time Train episode. A Yuppie couple awakes in their house a few
hours in the future except it's still under construction! Faceless
blue/purple workmen are busy building time. The supervisor explains
that the seconds of time are like the boxcars of a train.

Thanks in advance.

Paul C. Gardner
UUCP:  ..!{allegra,seismo,decvax,cmcl2}!rochester!gardner

[Moderator's Note:  There is a Twilight Zone Episode guide written
by yours truly available for anyone who wants it.  The file is
T:<SFL>Twilight-zone.guide and is available *only* via the ANONYMOUS
login of FTP.  This file does not contain any of the stories from
the new show.]

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: British SF TV
Date: 12 Apr 86 03:41:45 GMT

>>>> The series was created by Terry Nation, who also created Dr. Who.
>>>Correction.  Terry Nation created the first monsters in Dr. Who,
>>Dr.Who was Verity Lambert's creation.  The BBC assigned Mervyn
>>Pinfield to be her assistant producer.
>
>WRONG. Verity Lambert was the first producer of Doctor (not DR. )
>Who.  She was definitely not the creator althought she was the
>guiding force .  The creator (can't remember his name) originally
>worked for ITV. He brought up the idea of Doctor Who to them and
>then laughed at him. Eventually he got a very important job in the
>BBC where he again raised the idea of Doctor Who. The BBC gave the
>show a chance and the rest is history.

The man you are looking for is Sydney Newman.  He came up with the
original concept:

   "My original ideas was to have an irascible, absent-minded,
   unpredictable old man, running away from his own planet in a time
   machine which looked like a police box on the outside but was in
   fact a large space station inside, and which he really didn't
   know how to operate, so he was always ending up in the wrong
   place and time.  We called him Doctor Who because no one new who
   he was, where he came from, what he was running away from, and
   where he was headed."

"An Unearthly Child", which fleshed out the character of the Doctor,
was written by Anthony Coburn.

Oddly enough, Sydney Newman was born here (Canada) and Anthony
Coburn was born in Australia.  So the great English SF series was
actually the product of two foreign creators.  Verity Lambert (the
producer) was trained in the USA, too!

(Perhaps this is why we got to see Hartnell in this country (almost)
at the same time as England, while the USA waited a decade or so.)

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 00:32:22 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Doctor Who's creator

My reference is Peter Haining's book "Doctor Who: A Celebration".
The second chapter is entitled "How we created Doctor Who" and is
authored by Verity Lambert.  In this chapter, Lambert states that
Sydney Newman was indeed the main instigator, and Verity was the
first producer.  Donald Wilson also had quite a bit to do with the
birth of the program(me), but it was apparent to Lambert (from
Wilson's reactions) that the "impetus came from Sydney."

Another interesting bit of history, Verity Lambert was working at
ABC as a production assistant when Sydney Newman called with the job
offer.  In fact, before he went to work for the BBC, Newman was the
head of drama at ABC and (I presume) worked with Lambert.

If you are a die-hard Doctor Who fan, you should seriously consider
getting Peter Haining's book.  It is expensive, but well worth it.
At the very least, borrow a friend's copy for a week or two.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Apr 86 0814-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #78
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:

         Books - Anthony & Cherryh & Herbert & Lovecraft &
                 May & Shute & Simak & Funny SF (5 msgs) &
                 Alive Computers & SF Poll,
         Miscellaneous - Copyrights

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Re: Battle Circle
Date: 15 Apr 86 17:11:14 GMT

> Could whoever posted the recommendation for Piers Anthony's Battle
> Circle series also post the names (and sequence) of these books,
> and maybe a short synopsis?  Also, are they still in print?

   The books are now in print in a single paperback volume entitled
BATTLE CIRCLE.  (At least it was in print when I bought it 1 year
ago.)  I got my copy at an "Encore Books" in Philadelphia; they
generally have a good selection of SF&F.

   The titles of the books are "Sos the Rope", "Var the Stick", and
"Neq the Sword."

   A brief synopsis follows, with NO spoilers.

   The action takes place in a post-nuclear-holocaust world.  The
world is divided into two civilizations.  First, there are the
"regular" types, who live as (what we would consider) barbarians.  A
man takes his name from the weapon he wields; hence, the titles of
the three books.  As usual, Piers Anthony's women play a secondary
role in the story.  However, BATTLE CIRCLE's women are stronger
characters than those of his other, more recent novels.

   The second type of civilization is that of the "crazies".  These
are the scientist-types, who keep the world functioning while the
barbarians run amok.  They provide food, weapons, and shelters for
the barbarians, who look upon the scientists as "crazy".  Who would
give away this stuff for free, they ask, if they weren't crazy??

   The title of the trilogy, BATTLE CIRCLE, comes from the
barbarians' method of settling any disputes between people.  'Nuff
said about that.

   Please understand that this is a BRIEF synopsis of the
environment only.  No mention was made of the wonderful characters,
the spellbinding plot, or the incredible surprises in store for the
reader!  I hope that you find these books as fantastic as I did; if
you would have handed these books to me authorless, I never would
have guessed that it was Anthony that wrote them (judging by the
latest goings-on in Xanth).

Have fun!

Dan Barrett

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE KIF STRIKE BACK by C. J. Cherryh (mild spoiler)
Date: 14 Apr 86 15:22:17 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "Chanur's Revenge. Kif Power. Hani Pride...  When the kif seized
  Hilfy and Tully, hani and human crew of "The Pride of Chanur",
  they issued a challenge Pyanfar, captain of "Pride", couldn't
  ignore, a challenge that was to take Pyanfar and her shipmates to
  Mkks station and into a deadly confrontation between kif, hani,
  mahendo'sat, and human. And what began as a simple rescue attempt
  soon blossomed into a dangerous game of interstellar politics,
  where today's ally could become tomorrow's executioner, and where
  methane breathers became volatile wild cards playing for stakes no
  oxy breather could even begin to understand..."

Sound confusing? It is, even if you've read CHANUR'S VENTURE, the
book that precedes this one. It is sometimes the case that the
middle book of a trilogy is weak, and this book is very weak.

The action takes place over the course of a handful of days, and
during the entire time the crew is exhausted. Midway through the
book the reader is exhausted too. The dialogue is very often in
broken English; this is done to indicate that the speaker doesn't
fluently speak the hearer's language (which isn't English anyway),
but it grates on one's nerves after a while.

The story is very hard to follow. I had read the first book of the
series and also THE PRIDE OF CHANUR, which deals with some of the
same characters but is not directly involved with the trilogy, and I
still had lots of problems trying to figure out the politics.
There's no preface or afterward that summarizes what has happened up
to this point, so if you haven't read CHANUR'S VENTURE, this book
will thoroughly confuse you.

There are other problems with the story too. There's a lot of
posturing and verbal confrontation, but very little real action
until the end. And some of the conflicts, between Hilfy and Pyanfar,
for instance, repeat themselves a number of times and are never
resolved.

I hate it when one of my favorite authors writes a dull book, but
I can only give this book 2.0 stars (fair).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: alive computers (Herbert)
Date: 14 Apr 86 14:38:16 GMT

>Allow me to plug my other favourite Herbert book here. I would
>highly recommend WHIPPING STAR. It is an interesting study of
>communication with a totally alien race. It's fun to watch the
>Caleban try to express itself in English. It used the best words it
>could to try to communicate concepts that English had no words for.

   Hear hear!  It's good to know that someone else besides myself
has read Herbert's other works.  I quite agree about WHIPPING STAR
-- it is definitely among the most *WEIRD* science fiction that I
have ever read.  To give a quick preview: A huge metal "beach ball"
is discovered lying (where else?) near the beach on some planet or
other.  It is the manifestation of a star (flaming ball of gas
type), the race of which are known as Calebans.  The beach ball,
which can communicate telepathically with humans, is found to be
seriously injured as a result of the sadistic tendencies of a
particularly evil woman.  Jorj X. McKie, of the Bureau of Sabotage,
must find the woman and stop her to save the Caleban's life. If this
sounds crazy, wait till you read it.

Its sequel, equally good if not better, is also one that I would
highly recommend: THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT.

Dave Iannucci@St. Joseph's University,
Philadelphia [40 00' N 75 15' W]
{{ihnp4|ucbvax}!allegra|{psuvax1}!burdvax|astrovax}!sjuvax!iannucci

------------------------------

From: entropy!martin@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Martin)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon
Date: 16 Apr 86 06:58:20 GMT

chandros@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Chandros) writes:
> Oh Boy.  You people sure missed the boat entirely.  H.P. Lovecraft
> INVENTED THE NECRONOMICON!!!! IT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST!!!!!!!!  If
> you read any of the Lovecraft letters to his buddies (or the
> preface to his stories), he says that he invented the
> Necronomicon.  What is so funny

While I agree that Lovecraft made up the book, this has not made it
nonexistent. I own one copy and failed to by another completely
different edition because I didn't have $35 to spare. The latter was
advertised in the Antiquarian Bookman, as an aside. Lovecraft's
references to it have created a demand. You can either publish new
Necronomicons or try to identify various older books as this book.
Both are reasonably possible and amusing. A few clever alterations
in a old foreign language book are all that is required.

Thus the fictional start of this book does not preclude finding
copies. Of course it is possible that Lovecraft is wrong and that he
only thinks that he made it up. There are many cases where an author
has forgotten his source.

Donald C. Martin,  phone (206) 543 1044
SC-32, Dept. of Biostatistics., U. of Wash, Seattle WA, 98195
{decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax!lbl-csam}!uw-beaver!entropy!martin
1

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:06:40 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Pliocene hooks (SPOILER WARNING)

   I would argue that THE ADVERSARY at least disentangles most of
the problems set up by the previous three books; there are potential
hooks because there was so much happening that some "solutions" left
room for further development (e.g., Mark and Elizabeth empowering
the Duat---I suspect May lacks Cherryh's taste for aliens and so
won't ever write this, but at least it got rid of someone who would
otherwise have finished the destruction of the Pliocene society).
   At the end of THE ADVERSARY, May says that her next work will be
(3 books?) about the Metapsychic Rebellion that caused Mark etc. to
flee to the Pliocene, and explain how St. Jack the Bodiless and
Diamond Mask got their names.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:19:55 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: COBRA and ?predecessor?

   I haven't read COBRA, but I'm wondering from the several
descriptions whether Zahn has read Nevil Shute's CHEQUERBOARD. The
basis of the book is a man who is suffering (effectively) a
slow-motion stroke caused by unextracted shrapnel tracking the three
people who were in prison hospital with him and finding what
happened to them after World War II. One of the three had been a
commando trainee up on a murder charge---he was attacked by a
drunkard twice his size and broke the man's back with a maneuver
he'd been taught but never used in combat. He was defended by a
commando officer who argued that the training was more at fault than
he was, and received a relatively mild sentence.

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Clifford Simak (long)
Date: 15 Apr 86 19:21:27 GMT

Thanks for posting the interview with Clifford Simak. One of my
favorite writers, years ago. Anyone remember "I Trade with You my
Mind"?

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 09:34 CST
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Funny SF & F

My recommendations for funny SF & F are :  (incomplete list)

High Crusade by Poul Anderson Schroedinger's Cat (I-III) by Robert
Anton Wilson (sort of HHGTTG-like) Out of Their Minds by Clifford
Simak

> You might want to read Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series.

Though it's not written to be humorous it is interlaced with humor.

These stories are most certainly meant to be funny.  I strongly
recommend them for humor.

The Devil Will Drag You Under by Jack Chalker is the book that
someone couldn't remember the whole title of.

The Fallible Fiend by L.  Sprague deCamp - great fantasy humor.  The
Taran series by Lloyd Alexander - Very witty Thomas Covenant - Oops,
just kidding.

Oh well that's all for now.

Brett Slocum --(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:01:16 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: humor in SF

  OPERATION CHAOS is no more humorous than any other of Anderson's
works--- i.e., he uses humor to break the tension, or has characters
joke to show they aren't really afraid (it's less uncouth than
spitting).
   Lem's THE CYBERIAD is a book that I found incredibly funny,
although it's not to everyone's taste. Some parts are (probably
deliberately) orthogonal to most SF (e.g., a poetry-writing computer
spews out an epic beginning "Arms and machine I sing, that tossed by
fate/And haughty homo's unrelating hate/ Exiled, _________, left the
Terran shore . . .); much is like Douglas Adams (dragons are
probabilistic: rather than getting .01 dragon, you get .01
likelihood that the dragon is here rather than there). I liked it
even though I find most of Lem boring. (TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT is
an attempt to be humorous that I found deadly dull---I suspect
there's some Eastern European /ethnic point of view I'm missing.)

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 16 Apr 86 20:53:56 GMT

I liked _Rails Across the Galaxy_, by Offutt & Lyon, which appeared
as a serial in Analog starting in Aug 1982.  (And ending in the
Mid-Sep issue, which (alas) has vanished from my collection.) I
should also mention the special spoof issue of Mid-Dec 1984 (why did
they move the 13th month around?), much of which had me rolling on
the floor.  My other favorites have already been mentioned by other
respondents.

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)

------------------------------

From: scifi@ukc.ac.uk (I.L.Sewell)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 16 Apr 86 10:39:10 GMT

   How about "Who Goes Here ? " by Ian Watson. It is a really good
take off of Starship Troopers I think and is not known well enough.
Nor is Ian Watson for that matter.

Ian Sewell

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 15 Apr 86 19:27:03 GMT

If you're going to mention "Samurai Cat", then you HAVE to talk
about "Time Beavers", too.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 13 Apr 86 22:37:31 GMT

I don't notice anyone mentioning "The Computer Connection" by Alfred
Bester.

I read this quite awhile ago and remember enjoying it...but that was
before I was into computers at all, so it's accuracy is in doubt.  I
remember it as a very weird book.

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: Wed 16 Apr 86 14:51:17-EST
From: Scott Schneider
Subject: SF-POLL

> All Time Favorite:

THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES by Ray Bradbury

>  Favorite author:

Robert Heinlein, Alfred Bester, Keith Laumer. Phillip K. Dick is
getting there as I read more of his work.

>  Hardest to put down:

   Tough - since I read almost everything in a  day or two but...

THE STAND by Stephen King - every time I pick it up to look at on
section I find myself rereading the whole thing (500+ pages).
Anything by Alfred Bester, especially GOLEM 100.  Most anything by
Heinlein -- what a storyteller !!

>  Best with computers:

THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.
Hon. Mention :  I, ROBOT  (I.A. deals with A.I.)
                SHOCKWAVE RIDER by John Brunner.

>  Most interesting/unusual:

VALIS by Philip K. Dick.
Hon. Mention: UBIK by same

>  Best series:

THE LORD OF THE RINGS

>  Best written:

SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5 by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES
THE LORD OF THE RINGS

>  Other books:

SIRENS OF TITAN and CAT'S CRADLE by Vonnegut
CRY, THE POLICEMAN SAID and DO ANDROIDS DREAM...?   by PKD
NIGHT OF DELUSIONS by Keith Laumer
THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman
RIDDLEY WALKER by I forgot who (mainstream novel)
STAND ON ZANZIBAR by John Brunner
CAVES OF STEEL and PEBBLE IN THE SKY by Isaac Asimov

Most OverRated:

THE DISPOSSESSED by Ursula LeGuin

Most Disappointing:

DUNE MESSIAH, CHILDREN OF DUNE, etc...

Best Sequel:

2010 -- I though the *book* was a far better novel than the
        original.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 86 12:14:10 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: copyright (effect on editions)

   The 1970's revision of US copyright law apparently didn't
disentangle some of the strange things that happened when English SF
was published in the US. You've probably seen all the Brunner
reissues (mostly from Ace) ---these were originally cut to fit a
short book or half a Double, and it's arguable whether the cutting
hurt (Brunner will flame at the slightest provocation over people
who've edited his work without his consent, but I haven't seen him
crowing over these restorations). But there still is no uncut
American edition of Wyndham's THE TROUBLE WITH LICHEN, and I was
told by the manager of the Penguin outlet in Cambridge MA (first in
US, although there are several exclusively-Penguin bookstores in UK)
that there may still be contractual constraints preventing them from
selling Wyndham in this country. It's a real pity, because without
those ~10 pages the book is a bit like chili con carne with no
chili.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 86 0901-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #79
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Asprin & Brooks & Chalker &
                   Tolkien & Live Computers & Sf Poll &
                   Funny SF (4 msgs) & Story Request &
                   An Old Request Answered,
           Television - Buck Rogers & The People

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 14:13:23-PST
From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: BATTLE CIRCLE

Regarding the query about Piers Anthony's BATTLE CIRCLE stories in
SFL V11 # 76:

Three short novels compose the BATTLE CIRCLE series.  They have been
collected into a single volume titled BATTLE CIRCLE.  The individual
stories are:

   Var the Stick
   Sos the Rope
   Neq the Sword

The stories are set in a post-nuclear-war world.  The civilization
that we know of has collapsed, and is replaced by a loose tribal
organization based on combat.  Social status is determined by ritual
combat in the Battle Circle (hence the name of the series).  Men are
known by a one-syllable name, suffixed with their weapon of
proficiency.  Hence, Var the Stick is a stick- fighter named Var,
etc.

To avoid a spoiler warning, I won't say anything more, except to
recommend the books.  Anthony has come up with several quite
imaginative alternate societies here.  They make entertaining,
moderate (not too light or too heavy) reading.

PSW

------------------------------

From: randvax!rohn@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurinda Rohn)
Subject: Re: Thieve's World
Date: 14 Apr 86 16:40:02 GMT

Ken Hill (khill@ti-csl) writes:
>There are actually 6 (at my last count) collections of stories now
>out about TW.  These are available from the SF Book Club as two
>hardback volumes, and some paperbacks are still around, at least of
>the more recent volumes.  Also, Lynn(?) Abbey, a co-editor for some
>of the volumes, has, I believe, written 1 or more novels, etc.

Ken is correct about the hardback versions of the first six books,
but there are at least eight in the series.  The last two, "The Dead
of Winter" and "Soul of the City" (I think), have come out just
recently.  There is a novel out called (I think the title is "Beyond
Sanctuary") by Janet Morris.

I really enjoyed most of the first six books.  However, I've been
disappointed in the last two, and I really didn't like Morris' novel
much at all.  They (the collective authors, that is) seem to be
leaning more heavily on the "magical" characters (Ischade, Roxane,
et. al.) and stories at the expense of the other characters.

In general, though, I'd recommend the books.  Enjoyable reading.

Lauri
rohn@rand-unix.ARPA
..ihnp4!sdcrdcf!randvax!rohn

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Terry Brooks new novel -- "Magic Kingdom for sale -- Sold!"
Date: 15 Apr 86 16:57:51 GMT

Mini-review of Terry Brooks new novel -- "Magic Kingdom for Sale --
Sold!"

A highly successful lawyer looking for a change in life after his
wife dies sees a magic kingdom advertised in a department store
catalog for a cool million buckerinos. He bites and tries to prove
himself worthy to rule the true-to-life fairy tale kingdom.

Sounds like a nice plot, right? What would you put in a fairy tale
kingdom?  Dragons? Fair princesses to be rescued? Court magicians?
Evil demons? Ugly witches? Brave Knights? Fairies? Large stone
castles? Ominous forests?

You've got it. Terry Brooks tries to fit these all-too traditional
elements into a story about guilt, honor, and commitment. But it
really flops.  Instead, it sounds like the novelization of a
computer adventure game, with our hero running around trying to
solve the myriad puzzles that occur.

When he arrives in the kingdom, he finds that he's not the first
person to attempt to rule the kingdom -- he turns out to be the
20th. So the people don't pay much attention to the new king on the
block. He tries to prove himself worthy, but when he attempts to
enlist the Lords' help, they tell him to defeat a dragon first. So
he goes to the fairy woods for aid, and they agree, but only if
he'll stop the lords from building on their land.  The Evil Witch
tells him that she can stop the dragon, but only if he'll enter the
realm of Faerie, from which no-one has returned. Etcetera.

Somebody once wrote of Richard Adam's "Maia", "This is not a book to
be set aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force." It
seems appropriate. The "Shannara" series were fairly weak and
predictable fantasy works, and this is even worse.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 06:01:53 GMT

>Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like "And the
>devil....". I don't rember the title off hand but it had Asmodues
>as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes.  [etc.]

It's been about a year since I read
_And_The_Devil_Will_Drag_You_Under_, but I sure don't remember any
commie gnomes in it.  Also, the book didn't strike me as attempting
to be humorous, really.  It was, however, pretty good (the only one
of Chalker's novels I've liked).

Michael Justice
bitnet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
UUCP:    ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
CSNET:   boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 86 14:40:35 PST
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Tolkien

Since we're on the subject of Tolkien did anyone notice the LOTR
scene where Gandalf and company are about to enter through the
mountains of Moria.  They come to a door set into the mountain with
elvish script adorning it.  The script translated says in effect
"Say the elvish word for friend, mellon, to enter".  Gandalf was
hard pressed to discover this fact and there were wolves very near
the company that were tracking them.  Legolas, the elf, was part of
the company at this point but he never gave a word of help.  I never
figured out why.  Any ideas?  This seems to be a hole in the plot.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 86 11:26:43 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: more on live computers
From: Richardson.EIS@Xerox.COM

>I wouldn't call this an intelligent computer -- Peersa was a human
>mind copied onto a computer, apparently one that could emulate a
>human mind.  Does this qualify as a self-aware computer?  I
>wouldn't think so.  I'm interested in replies though.

In "Time Enough for Love" there was an organic body with the
personality from a self-aware computer.  If this "object" was a
person then the "object" in "A World Out of Time" qualifies as a
self-aware computer.

Another was to look at this is the "program" was developed on
another "host" and transfered to the target machine.  The end result
is a "program" running on inorganic hardware which is self aware.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 86 09:54 CST
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: SF Poll

I'll give this poll a shot. My only problem is picking one in each
category, so bear with me.  I also added a few categories.

Best Novel (SF) : Canticle for Liebowitz - Miller,
    Mote in God's Eye - Niven & Pournelle, Lord of Light - Zelazny,
    Dune - Herbert, Fahrenheit 451 - Bradbury, Dreamsnake - McIntyre
Best Novel (Fantasy) : Mists of Avalon - Bradley, LOTR - Tolkien
Best Short Story : The Star - Clarke, And There Shall Come Soft
    Rains Bradbury, NightFall - Asimov (is this a short or a novella)
Best Author (Novel) : Heinlein, Asimov, Zelazny, Vonnegut, Dick,
    Bradley
Best Author (Short Story) : Bradbury
Best Series (SF) : Foundation Series - Asimov, Darkover - Bradley
    (well, Science Fantasy, really)
Best Series (Fantasy) : Camber - Kurtz, EarthSea - LeGuin, Amber -
    Zelazny, (Crystal Caves, Hollow Hills, etc.) - Stewart, Pern -
    McCaffrey, Mabigonian - Evangeline Walton, Fafhrd & Grey Mouser
    - Leiber
Best Series (Juvenile) : Taran series - Alexander, Wrinkle in Time,
    et al. - L'Engle
Best (Computers) : Moon is a Harsh Mistress - Heinlein
Best written : First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - Donaldson
Best Star Trek Novel : The Final Reflection - Ford
Most Unusual : Stranger in a Strange Land - Heinlein, Cat's Cradle -
    Vonnegut, Flamesong - MAR Barker, The Man Who Folded Himself -
    Gerrold, Null-A Series - Van Vogt
Funniest - Cat's Cradle, Any Stainless Steel Rat book - Harrison
Hardest to Put Down : Jhereg - Brust, Dune, Mote in God's Eye,
    Camber series, The Ninja - van Lustbader
Other books : The Man in the High Castle - Dick, Gateway - Pohl,
    Tomoe Gozen - Salmonson, The Weapon Shops of Isher & The Weapon
    Makers - Van Vogt, Changling & Madwand - Zelazny

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 15 Apr 86 19:10:44 GMT

bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes:
>Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science
>fiction books? One of my favorites is "The Colour of Magic" by
>Terry Pratchett (sp?). I'd really like to find more in the same
>vein.

Terry Pratchett also wrote a book, "Strata", which parodied Larry
Niven's "Ringworld" and "Ringworld Engineers" so that I'll never be
able to read either without laughing.

If you're looking for humour, then you've undoubtedly heard about
Robert Lynn Asprin's incredibly lame "Myth" series. The comic book,
illustrated by Phil Foglio is fantastic -- the books aren't.

Of course there's always Douglas Adam's "Hitchhikers Guide to the
Galaxy" series.

Jack Chalker's "River of the Dancing Gods" is a sometimes brilliant
sendup of various fantasy books, including Steve Donaldson's "Thomas
Covenant" series, and, of course, Tolkien, but a good start turns
into a typical Chalker effort soon down the line.

Piers Anthony's "Xanth" (or rather, X(a)*n**th) series is good if
you like your puns fast and furious.

John Norman's "Gor" books are unintentionally funny.

For that matter, Lin Carter's "Thongor of Lemuria" series is a
scream. I started reading one to my wife, and we couldn't even get
through the first page.

The Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings"?

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 14:23:16-PST
From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Humerous SF

I must disagree with the posting in SFL V11 #76 that classified
Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories as humerous SF.  Certainly they
are very entertaining, somewhat light reading, but they are cast as
serious detective stories in a serious alternate universe.  I would
NOT lump them in the same category of humerous SF as Spider
Robinson's Callahan's Bar stories or STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY
RANGERS.

Keith Laumer's Retief stories are good humerous SF, especially the
earlier ones.  Laumer seems to have degenerated to apeing his own
style with the later Retief books.

Ian Stewart has had a series of stories published in Analog over the
past few years featuring a character called Billy the Joat (JOAT is
an acronym for "Jack of All Trades").  These are pretty good
humerous SF.

Analog also published a few stories some years back revolving around
a Chinese immigrant businessman named Chap Foey Rider.  The first
couple of stories concern Chap Foey Rider's accidental discovery of
the Galactic civilization, which it turns out is entirely based on
laissez-faire (sp?)  capitalism, and his exploitation of same.
Unfortunately, the later stories have the soapbox-y preaching of
conservative social politics completely dominating the humerous
elements of the story, which is too bad.  The best of the Chap Foey
Rider stories compare favorably with the best of the Retief stories.
Alas, I do not remember who the author is.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Apr 1986 09:12:25-PST
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Re: I want FUNNY f & sf

No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without mention
of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout!

------------------------------

From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 06:16:11 GMT

Another good group of stories to read are some about "Gallagher
Plus".  I don't remember the author or the titles (sorry), but I've
seen about five of these stories in OLD collections (1950's
perhaps).  They're about a guy who, normally, is pretty normal.
When he gets drunk, though, a sort of "second mind" cuts in, which
ends up getting him into trouble all around. . . .  They're fun.

Also, Christopher Stasheff's book, _The_Warlock_in_Spite_of_
Himself_, is excellent!  Many humorous sections in it, although it
was not meant to be a jokebook by any means.  I've heard it was his
first novel; if so, I'm amazed. . . .

Michael Justice
bitnet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
UUCP:    ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
CSNET:   boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet

------------------------------

From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 16-Apr-86 17:52:25-GMT
Subject: story search

I have been trying to find a story for some time and would
appreciate any help.

As far as I know the title of the story was 'In the hour of not
quite rain ' and appeared in a english (?)  magazine in the early to
middle 70's.I have no idea of who the author is (or was) but I would
like to track down either the magazine title or any collection that
it is in.  Basically the story tells of a future time when acid rain
had reached the state of being nearly pure sulphuric acid and so
weather reports became VERY important since shelter had to be gained
before the rain came on.  The story consists of about 7 sort
sections describing the events during one such rain storm , the only
one i can remember is of a bunch of youths in a shelter not letting
an old man in and watching him melt ( the line 'dance little man
dance ' sticks in my head but i may be wrong ).

Thanks in advance for any help

andy cobley
cobley%dundee.micro%dundee@ucl-cs

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 1986 16:36-EST
From: sal%brandeis.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
Subject: Re: Who wrote this Short Story?

The story sounds like one written by Asimov.  I don't happen to
remember the title offhand, but I think it is collected in the
_Bicentennial_Man_.  (I'm not sure about the collection - it's been
a while.)

Sarah Chodrow
USnail:  Box 682                CSNET : sal@brandeis
         Brandeis University    UUCP  : harpo!sec
         Waltham, MA 02254

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 86 16:35:13 PST (Thursday)
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Buck Rogers

> I was watching an episode of Buck Rogers in the 25th Century the
>other night and whilst Buck was at the spaceport they called over
>the intercom:
>
>"Captain Christopher Pike please report to Veterans Affairs Office"

If you watch Buck Rogers long enough and listen carefully you will
find several references to other science fiction characters and
authors.  In fact in the last episodes of the series there was a
character named Commander (?) Asimov.  I understand it was
intentional for such references to be on each show.

Wendel

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: The People (TV movie)
Date: 16 Apr 86 20:53:09 GMT

boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>> Still... it was directed by Francis Ford Coppola (really!).
>
>Not really. Coppola was Executive Producer; John Korty was
>Director.

    Oh, well, my imperfection on display again <sob>.  Still, that's
also good news - Korty directed "Twice Upon A Time", one of my
all-time fave animated features, shown mostly only on cable.  Check
it out if you get the chance...

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 86 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:

               Books - Brust & Card & Clarke & King &
                       Lovecraft & Palmer & 
                       Funny SF (4 msgs) &
                       SF Poll & One-shot Authors &
                       Story Request Answered (2 msgs),
               Films - Star Trek IV,
               Miscellaneous - SFL T-Shirts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 86 09:43:27 PST (Fri)
From: Phil Jansen <philj%tekig5%tektronix.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Brust's Jhereg, Yendi, (and soon?) Tekla

I really enjoy one twist SKZB uses in these books.

In _Jhereg_, Taltos, the narrator, sometimes refers to adventures he
has already had with other characters.  When I read the prequel
_Yendi_, I expected to watch the characters meet, have the
adventures, etc.  _Yendi_ did that for some of the characters, but
revealed more -- it's not the beginning of the story either.

How long can he keep it up?  When is SKZB going to START writing
this series?  I like where it ended up -- or is it finished?

Phil Jansen

------------------------------

From: gsg!kathy@caip.rutgers.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card
Date: 16 Apr 86 15:24:09 GMT

   I feel compelled to disagree with the preceeding review of
"Speaker for the Dead."  I have read all three works involved, the
original short story version of "Ender's Game," the complete novel,
and "Speaker for the Dead."  I enjoyed the short story version of
"Ender's Game," but the novel was vastly better.  Card succeeds in
letting us get inside Ender's head to a remarkable degree.  The
entire story he creates is internally consistent and believable.  He
manages to develop the characters so naturally and consistently that
we forget they are children until he rubs our noses in it, reminding
us that these "soldiers" are only ten years old.  It is emotionally
a very powerful book.

   I didn't think "Speaker for the Dead" was quite as good as
"Ender's Game," but it is still a fine book.  I do not regret that I
went out and bought the hardcover edition when it was first printed.
(Something I very rarely do).  I agree that it doesn't finish the
story of the Hive Queen, but I disagree that that is a fault.  He
has created yet another consistent world for this book, and to try
to carry on the Hive Queen's story in the same book would be trying
to put far too much into a single volume.  Her hatching and how
humanity deals with it should be its own story, which I hope will be
written someday.

   These are, of course, strictly my own opinions, and it is
distinctly possible that no one else out there on the net will agree
with them.  However, the same hold for the author of the preceeding
review.  Don't skip these books because he didn't like them.  Read
them for yourself. They are well worth the time involved.
Personally, I think that "Ender's Game" will become one of the
classics, and would not be at all surprised to see it pick up a Hugo
at this year's Worldcon.  I think it deserves it.

Kathryn Smith
(...decvax!gsg!kathy)
General Systems Group
Salem, NH

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1986 10:01:36 EST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike%bellcore.com@mouton.bellcore.com>
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke, SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH

Some of you may recall the short movie outline Clarke did for SONGS
OF DISTANT EARTH -- it was the only original text in his rip-off
trade paperback of a few years back called THE SENTINEL.  It was an
incredible rehashing of old Clarke short stories and novels ("A
Meeting with Medusa", "Songs of Distant Earth", THE FOUNTAINS OF
PARADISE, "The Shining Ones", and so on), but it might have made an
enjoyable, fairly literate SF movie.  (Instead we got 2010 -- but
that's another story.)

Unfortunately, SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH doesn't cut it as a novel.
Clarke's later work seems to suffer from a general lack of plot --
rather telling a coherent story, he writes a series of rather
disconnected vignettes.  SONGS suffers from this even more than,
say, FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE did.

Even so, Clarke can write well enough to make this enjoyable, if not
spectacular.  As for the story line -- comparing this novel with
"Songs of Distant Earth" (collected in THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SKY)
provides a really interesting view of how Clarke's attitudes, and
the world's, have changed since the 50s.  The plot, however, is
pretty much the same.  SONGS doesn't say much that "Songs" didn't
say, but the novel is several times longer.  Some would call that a
problem.

By the way, someone was comparing the cover blurb with that for
James P. Hogan's VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR.  Without rendering my
opinion of Hogan's work, no, they don't have too much in common,
although the two authors are developing a remarkably similar,
equally obnoxious, and totally unbelievable view as to what the
"ideal society" looks like.  But Clarke can still blow Hogan right
out of the water with straight narrative prose, his descriptions are
light-years away from Hogan's, and his characters, well, neither one
of them is going to pick up the Nobel in literature...

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.arpa
ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 18:50:55 CST
From: C449499%UMCVMB.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Randy Davis)
Subject: Stephen King's  _The_Mist_

_The_Mist_ is available on cassette tape from:

     ZBS Productions
     RR 1 Box 1202
     Fort Edward, NY  12828

This is not JUST a reading of the story, but actually acted out. ZBS
also has several other SF type series. One of my favorites is
_Ruby_.

Randy

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 86 08:38:21 PST (Friday)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon (#77)
From: Kurt <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.COM>

                     *****Spoiler warning*****
** This note may spoil any interest you have in reading this stuff **

I was rather disappointed with the Necronomicon which has been sold
as a paperback, due to the rather obvious rip-off of the
Babylonian/Persian Myth cycle. At least they could have stuck with
CCD (Cthulhu Cycle Deities, for those not Lumley fans) lore, rather
than changing some of the names in a rather ordinary description of
Tiamat/Ishtar/Marduk/etc.

Kurt

------------------------------

From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: David R. Palmer
Date: 18 Apr 86 22:58:45 GMT

Potential spoilers follow; second chance to stop now.  They're just
comparisons, nothing directly quoted from the books or such.

Has there been any discussion of David R. Palmer yet?  I'm
interested to hear others' impressions of him, having just finished
two of his novels (_Emergence_ and _Threshhold_).  They seemed like
pretty blatant Heinlein xeroxes most of the time (_Threshhold_ read
like _Glory_Road_, with a little bit of _Betelgeuse_Bridge_ (I know,
Heinlein didn't write it, but it was in a collection he edited)
thrown in for fun) (and while I'm at it, _Emergence_'s heroine was
very like Heinlein's in _Podkayne_ and _The_Menace_from_Earth_).

Michael Justice
bitnet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
UUCP:    ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
CSNET:   boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: Funny F&SF

> From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
>      [from his list of funny F & SF]
> (2) The Butterfly Kid, Chester Anderson.

...and don't forget two related books: The Unicorn Girl by Michael
Kurland and The Probability Pad by T.A. (Tom) Waters.  Chester,
Mike, and (to a lesser extent) Tom all appear as characters in all
three books.  I found them all to be uproariously funny.

> (3) The High Crusade (3 Hearts & 3 Lions) Poul Anderson.

Um, these are two decidedly different books!  The High Crusade is
the story of an extraterrestrial invasion ship which lands in
13th-century England and proceeds to get captured by a local knight,
who then goes merrily off through the galaxy.  Extremely funny.
Three Hearts and Three Lions, while it has some humor, is not
primarily a humorous book.  It is the story of a man from our world
who winds up in a fantasy world as a champion of Law versus Chaos
(sounds trite, I know -- but it's *not*.  This book is a classic of
fantasy.  By all means, read it!)

marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 18 Apr 86 13:25:04-EST
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: More funny SF

>Bored of the Rings if you like parody

        If you're into parody, how about Doon?  It was published
around the time the Dune movie came out.  Paul Mauve-Bib joins the
Freedmenmen who harvest the mind-altering substance known as BEER.
It's hilarious.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 10:34:17 est
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: Humorous SF

I note that while someone did mention Stanislaw Lem's _Star
Diaries_, none of his other humorous SF got any notice.  I found
both _The Cyberiad_ and _The Futurological Congress_ extremely funny
(although not particularly light-hearted).  I also liked _Memoirs
Found In A Bathtub_, whose humor is more to the black side.  Beware,
though, as a friend who takes his physics very seriously did not
like _The Cyberiad_, even the story about the constructors vs. the
probabalistic dragons...

jbvb@AI.AI.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 17:52:46 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Funny SF

Up to bat for Diane Duane again. While MY ENEMY,MY ALLY is not a
comedy, it is interlaced with humor (to borrow a phrase) all the way
through. Notable are Kirk's response to Ael's comment that "Hope is
illogical", and the last page or so. THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL,by David
Gerrold, the creator of tribbles, also includes several humorous
sections, including "The MacMurray Encounter," which I hope all
Trekkies out there have heard of. If you haven't, then GO BUY THIS
BOOK! I hear that John M. Ford, author of THE FINAL REFLECTION, is
writing a humorous STAR TREK book called WHO'S COOKING THIS TURKEY?.
No details, though.  If you are into comics, then look up STAR TREK
24-25, a two-part story by Ms.  Duane called "Double Blind". I will
not give details, except to say that Kirk again surrenders his ship
(the EXCELSIOR), under similar circumstances to the MacMurray
encounter.

That should do for now.....

Garrett Fitzgerald

------------------------------

From: csd2!turchind@caip.rutgers.edu (DiTu)
Subject: Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Poll
Date: 16 Apr 86 22:24:00 GMT

I also did not like PJF's Riverworld series (for other reasons
maybe), but I still like the author. I think his best is "world of
tiers" pentalogy.

My favorite authors are:
  Jack Vance, R. Zelazny (BTW it was he who wrote "Doorways in the
Sand") de Camp, Glen Cook and other ...

Dimitri.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 10:45:31 est
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: One-shot (?) authors.

I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but I
haven't seen anything more from their authors.

1) _Wave Rider_ by Hilbert Schenck - a collection of well-written
short stories, with what I felt were some of the better
characterizations I have seen in short SF in a while, set in
interesting situations.  They seemed very polished, like he had been
thinking about them and re-writing them for years...

2) _The Zen Gun_, by Barrington Bayley - not so well-written, but a
very interesting premise for what looks like a space opera at times,
and what (even after re-reading) appears to be several very subtle
morals...

Is it simply my local bookstores, or have both of the authors folded
their tents and stolen away?

jbvb@AI.AI.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 18-Apr-1986 1459
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (From the terminal of Brendan
From: E. Boelke)

>From: <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
>  I have a question.  I was describing the following story to a
>friend of mine and I said that I thought it was written by someone,
>but I could not remember who.  I read it at least 5-10 years ago.
>It is real short, so I will post it.  If you do know who wrote it
>please reply...

 [story line follows]

>From: uwvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek Zahn)
>Isaac Asimov.

which is correct.  But, this being easily my favorite short story of
all time (the impact of the final sentence the first time read is
fantastic), I wish to make a brief 'fix' to the synopsis.  The
question was not "What is the meaning of life", but "How do we stop
entropy".  The computer (Asimov's infamous MULTIVAC I believe)
survived final entropy because, having become so huge, it was
'stored' in hyper-space.

This was a great short story for a kid of about 12 or 13 who was
just beginning to question the existence of the Catholic God.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 17:37:10 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re:Who wrote this short story?

It was by Asimov, yes, but it was rather different. It was called
"The Last Question". As man evolved upward, the computers evolved
upward, too, until the last computer existed in hyperspace only, and
mankind was a single thinking entity. Man, from the time of the
early computers (but still in the future), had been asking the
question "How can entropy be reversed?" That is, how can the
universe be kept from dying? The computer kept working on it,
although it had insufficient data. Finally, entropy was at maximum,
all mankind had merged with the computer, and it had finally
obtained all its data. It worked on the problem until it had solved
it, and then it carried out its solution.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 86 18:03:19 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Star Trek IV

In this month's issue of STAR TREK (the comic), the editor says
something to the effect of "You'll be reading this around the
beginning of May, and the shooting for STIV will be wrapping up
around the same time." I think the phrase he actually used implied
the live shooting, with actors. I wonder if we'll be able to figure
out the complete plot before the movie comes out?

Garrett Fitzgerald

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 18:31:58 est
From: James Turner <lmi-angel!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa>
Subject: More t-shirt news

               Announcing the SF-LOVERS T-Shirt V2.0

The Art: White ink on a dark blue shirt. In the far future, two
interstellar travellers relax in front of their terminal, reading
the latest SFL Digest; oblivous to the alien menance about to blow
them out of the sky.

The Artist: Dexter Pratt is a amatuer comic artist, who's work can
be seen in The Dragon.

The T-Shirt: Haynes Beefy T, available in S, M, L, XL (no women's
sizes, sorry).  The Grungy Details: No T-shirts have been printed.
If you would like one (or more), please send $6.50/shirt (postage
included) to the below address by June 1, 1986. After all orders are
received, the shirts will be printed and mailed, with most people
receving them by the end of June (well in time for Worldcon). Any
excess funds will be used to print extra shirts, so future SFL
subscribers can get them. No profit will be made by Pipe Dream
Associates, or anyone involved in it.

The Address: Pipe Dream Associates
             329 Ward Street
             Newton, MA 02159

Be sure to indicate how many of each size you would like.

James
{harvard|cca|mit-eddie}!lmi-angel!jmturn
NOTE: I am *not* the James Turner at Imagen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 86 1003-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #81
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asprin (2 msgs) &
                    Brust & Clarke & Crowley & Palmer & 
                    Sucharitkul & Funny SF (6 msgs) & 
                    Author Request,
            Films - The Stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: OX, ORN, Omnivore .....
Date: 15 Apr 86 16:07:40 GMT

abd1@ur-tut.UUCP (   Al) writes:
>I've had these three books for a while now and want to know what
>order they should be read in.

1. Omnivore
2. Orn
3. OX

  Very good series, but be warned -- it starts off weird and gets
more so.  Interesting philosophy correlating creatures' dietary
habits with their dispositions -- herbivore, carnivore, omnivore --
recurs throughout the series.

Dave Lewis    Loral Instrumentation   San Diego
{sdcsvax|ihnp4|sdcrdcf}!{gould9|sdcc3|crash}!loral!dml

------------------------------

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: _Anthonology_
Date: 17 Apr 86 10:40:37 GMT

ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP writes:
>       Even better than the "Aprentice Adept" and the above books
>is Anthony's BATTLE CIRCLE.  I found it hard to believe that the
>same author that is putting out the latest Xanth books (eugh --
>although I loved the first three) put out a real masterpiece like
>BATTLE CIRCLE.  It is a 3-books-in-one-volume trilogy.

   Let's not forget MACROSCOPE.  I still reread it all the time, and
find more in it every time I do.  And it's not even hard to find!
   Of course, I'm biased as a mathematician; how many SF books can
you think of which involve something of actual mathematical interest
(the game of Sprouts)?

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 01:22:44 PST
From: pnet01!victoro <Victor O'Rear%cod@nosc.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #75\Myth Adventures

Carl Greeburg referred to WaRP Graphics as putting out a fine series
of adaptions of the 'Myth Adventures' series in comic form.

Unfortunetly, the NEW artist of Valentino (of _Normal Man_ fame),
which I find to be a very poor substute for Phil.  It's too bad he's
not staying.

(Anyone know of a Phil <Correct Spelling of Phoglio> fan club?

Victor O'Rear

------------------------------

From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 16 Apr 86 01:11:37 GMT

Unfortunately, as with most good things Phil Foglio has done, this
has come to an end.  The MythAdventures comic has been handed over
to another artist/writer, one Valentino, author of NormalMan.  In
the WaRP Graphics christmas sampler, they showed some of Valentino's
work on a MythAdventures story.  It was trite, jarring, muddy, and
totally without the charm and humor Phil brought to the story.

Phil adapted the entirety of the first book, and in order to do it
right, worked closely with Robert Asprin, made some changes to the
events and characters that greatly improved the story, and generally
increased(!) the humor in the story.

If you pick up copies of these books, do NOT believe the editorial
where Richard Pini explains that "deadline problems" were the reason
for Phil's leaving the book.  The truth is, Phil had an agreement
with Richard that explicitly forbade any schedule changes without
the MUTUAL agreement of both parties.  The Pinis violated this
contract when they increased the publication frequency from
quarterly to bimonthly over Phil's objections, and when he
demonstrated that he could not handle that schedule, they refused to
revert to the agreed-on publication schedule.

It is sad that the Pinis, who used to be interested in making good,
high-quality comics, are no longer willing to let others make the
sacrifices in schedule that they made for themselves with ElfQuest.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 09:43:31 PST
From: pnet01!bnw <Bruce N.Wheelock%cod@nosc.ARPA>
Subject: _Jhereg_

A writer (name forgotten) wrote (of S. Brust's _Jhereg_):
>From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays
> a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an
> interesting alien. Both assumptions are false.

     Number 1 is not false.  The conclusion betrays a very
superficial reading of the book.  I've not re-read _Jhereg_ in
weeks, but I recall that Loiosh is Vlad's advisor throughout the
novel, that he was of vital importance in the conducting of a
witchcraft spell, saved Vlad's life once, prevented the
Dragon-Jhereg war from being triggered, and served Vlad as scout,
lookout, and messenger.  More important, Loiosh, in his interactions
with Vlad and with other characters (for instance, Aliera), helps
set the tone and character of the novel.  Loiosh is loyal, devoted,
and has a sharp, acerbic tongue; in this he is not unlike most
ventriloquist dummies (forgive me, Loiosh).
     Number 2 displays a serious misunderstanding.  A jhereg is not
an alien, but a native life form of Dragaera (or do I mean
Adrilankha?).  There is a reference to an off-world race, the
Jenoine, but they are the only aliens, aside from some speculation
that the Easterners might be imported from another planet.

     I gave _Jhereg_ 4 stars, and _Yendi_ 3.5 stars.  Books in that
neighborhood get re-read at least once a year, and I wouldn't loan
them out on a bet.  (Besides, authors make money from sales, not
loans.)

OH--Did anyone read _Jhereg_ closely enough to spot the set of lines
lifted from A. Conan Doyle with only a minor change?

Bruce N. Wheelock
{ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!vista!pnet!pnet01!bnw

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: alive computers
Date: 16 Apr 86 15:08:51 GMT

I talked to Clarke about 2001 in 1969 and he brought up the HAL/IBM
question himself.  He said that it was just a surprising
coincidence.

It doesn't seem to be even that far-fetched a coincidence.  Given
that it is a totally arbitrary three letter choice, the odds are
1/8788 that it is right or left shifted from any specific other
combination.  Now if you consider all the other three letter
combinations that would have made interesting coincidences, you are
still a long way from probable, but it is not all that unlikely
either.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll
Date: 17 Apr 86 11:00:12 GMT

alfke@csvax.caltech.edu writes:
>Hardest to put down: "Little, Big" by John Crowley

   I've been meaning to ask about this book, although it's hardly
SF.  But since you brought it up...
   I sort of agree with "hardest to put down" (although that applies
to everything I read; I can't remember the last book I read in more
than two sittings, including this one...), but I didn't end up
*liking* the book at all.  As I recall (it has been over a year
since I read it, and it's not on my shelf any more) the style was
great, and I was really into reading it, but as I read I started
thinking that it was becoming more and more unlikely that he was
going to be able to tie everything together, and make any sense out
of it, and in general come up with a satisfying ending.  And I was
right -- at the end he started pulling things out of his hat, and
introducing things that were completely at odds with what I was
hoping for, and basically didn't resolve anything to my
satisfaction.
   I hope I've gotten across enough of my feeling that you can
respond to it.  As I said, I read the book quite a while ago, and my
recollections are not crystal clear.  Frankly, I recall thinking
that part of the reason for my dissatisfaction was my
scientific/logical background, and that I was expecting too much in
the way of a logical conclusion, but now that a Cal Tech type
recommends it, I am not so sure (although you also put down Hogan,
who I like, so maybe it is simply a matter of different tastes).
   I guess what I really want to know is what you saw in this book,
and should I read his other book(s), or will I find them more of the
same?  Did you also find the ending (indeed, as I recall, the last
third of the book) dissatisfying?
   I suppose I should mail this instead of posting, but I would be
happy to hear from anyone who has read the book.

David desJardins

------------------------------

From: watdragon!smkindersley@caip.rutgers.edu (sumo kindersley)
Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul's Inquestor books
Date: 4 Apr 86 01:35:51 GMT

     I recently finished The Darkling Wind by Somtow Sucharitkul. I
found it a well written book (meaning style, sentence formation) but
it struck me as somewhat obscure, speaking of events, personages,
relationships and places that were not at easy to understand, or to
fit to my understanding of the story.  Now, this is partly my fault,
for reading the fourth of the series first!! the 1st 3 books in the
series are Light on the Sound, The Throne of Madness, and Utopia
Hunters.  If anyone out there has read this series in order and can
recommend that I try it from the beginning please tell me.  I can't
imagine comprehending some series books (for instance, the Amber
novels) reading the last first, but others I think it wouldn't make
too much difference what order I read them (e.g., Narnia series).

Thanks,
sumo.
uucp: {utzoo|decvax|ihnp4|clyde|linus|allegra}
      !watmath!watdragon!smkindersley
csnet: smkindersley%watdragon@waterloo.csnet
arpa:  smkindersley%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Victoria Rosly D'ull)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 16 Apr 86 22:14:36 GMT

bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes:
>Any recommendations for genuinely humorous fantasy or science
>fiction books?

How about Tanith Lee's _Don't Bite the Sun_ and _Drinking Sapphire
Wine_?  Gorgeously written, a truly odd cultural setting, and *very*
funny.....

Vicka d'Ull

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 16 Apr 86 14:36:02 GMT

Yet another I forgot to mention:

Where Were You Last Pluterday?, by Paul (I think) Van Herck Not
widely available, but funny and gently strange

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Humor in SF
Date: 16 Apr 86 17:55:37 GMT

Well, there are currently six in the "Myth Directions" series.  I
believe the titles have already been posted, so let me just agree
that they are very enjoyable. (but you'd better like puns).

Then, there's Jack Chalker's "Dancing Gods" series of books,
"River of TDG",
"Demons of TDG",
and "Vengence of TDG".

These books are a quest series, with, um, a Hero named Joe, a
Heroine named Marge, and a magic sword named (spoiler omitted).  The
mastermind is "Throckmorton P Ruddygore" which some of you may
recognize from another place.  The books are certainly humorous,
although fantasy and NOT SF.

"The Devil Will Drag You Under" is also a Chalker fantasy that is
quite humorous.  Chalker has a way of putting ordinary mortals in
the most <cough> unusual places.

None of the Chalker books are a "deep read", but they do entertain.

(ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 19:12 CET
From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>
Subject: funny SF

I'd recommend the following books resp. short stories:

Ashtaru the terrible by Poul Anderson (fantasy)

Sam,of de Pluterdag (Fraturday,Sam) by Paul van Herck

The spiteful Planet by Shinichi Hoshi (collection of short stories)

Michael Maisack
Tuebingen,Germany
PSST001 at DTUZDV1 in BITNET
Acknowledge-To:  <PSST001@DTUZDV1>

------------------------------

From: rlgvax!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 12:22:37 GMT

Another book that I would recommend is THE WARLOCK IN SPITE OF
HIMSELF by Christopher Stasheff.  Stasheff is NOT a very good SF
writer, but he is a GREAT story teller.  By this I mean I find the
plots in his books have holes that you can drive a Mac Truck trough,
but I have had such fun reading them that it doesn't matter.
Anyway, you may want to check it out.

OZ
seismo!rlgvax!oz

------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 14 Apr 86 18:36:38 GMT

My all time favorite is "The Butterfly Kid" (author forgotten)
although post sixties-generation types may find it a bit dated.
Harry Harrison also wrote a couple : "Bill the Galactic Hero" and
"The Technicolor Time Machine".

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Author of Well of Souls books?
Date: 18 Apr 86 17:52:07 GMT

Please, can anyone give me the name of the author of the 'Well of
Souls' books.  Also, titles and opinions of them?  Thanks.

If you would, send mail to me and I will summarize to the net.

Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center
INET: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM
UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE STUFF
Date: 17 Apr 86 22:55:42 GMT

                             THE STUFF
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  We all know junk food doesn't do you
     much good.  In THE STUFF it proves downright dangerous.
     Larry Cohen does a horror film with a light touch and several
     good characters.  Don't expect too much, but do try to see
     it.

  My brother's dog is afraid of his water dish.  He goes near it
only when driven by thirst.  Now that seems funny at first brush,
but it is and on and effective sort of paranoia that makes one
afraid of the innocent things around us.  You get no sympathy--it is
hard to believe the fear yourself.  Filmmaker Larry Cohen likes to
turn innocent things into monsters.  His IT'S ALIVE was about a
deadly mutated baby who does things like attacking milk trucks.
Well, Mr. Cohen has apparently been listening to those ads where the
yogurt company tells you its product has live yogurt cultures.  he
has invented for this film a delightful new food product that tastes
terrific and has more than just live cultures.

  The Stuff is sold everywhere and is more popular than ice cream.
What's in THE STUFF?  Well, it has a little INVASION OF THE BODY
SNATCHERS, a bit of THE BLOB, a dollop of QUATERMASS II, and a
smidge of FOOD OF THE GODS.  The story has the ice cream interests
hiring industrial saboteur Michael Moriarty to investigate the new
product replacing ice cream as America's favorite.  Moriarty
discovers the new food has a more sinister side than just pushing
down ice cream sales.  Along the way he runs into a fictional
version of Famous Amos and a Lyndon-LaRouche-like megalomaniac with
his own private army.

   What makes THE STUFF work is not so much the plot but its
off-beat view of American society.  Cohen has supplied his film with
a complete ad campaign for his junk food including celebrity
testimonials much like Jack Shea did for THE MONITORS.  In fact,
there are a surprising number of familiar faces in the film.
Besides main characters Michael Moriarty and Andrea Marcovicci, the
film also features Paul Scorvino, Garrett Morris, Danny Aielho,
Alexander Scourby, and Patrick O'Neil.

  The special effects, mostly from THE BLOB school, are done by a
number of people including two apprentices of Ray Harryhausen: David
Allen (whose best-known creation to date has been the Pillsbury
Doughboy, but who has occasionally done film work) and Jim Danforth
(who did effects for films like WHEN DINOSAURS RULED THE EARTH and
some of the effects of FLESH GORDON.

  I don't tend to like tongue-in-cheek films, but this film provided
at least three characters I enjoyed and had a light enjoyable touch.
Rate it a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Apr 86 0838-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:

              Books - Clarke & Llewellyn & McKiernan &
                      Tolkien & Wolfe & SF Poll (3 msgs) &
                      Funny SF (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pur-phy!dub@caip.rutgers.edu (Dwight)
Subject: New A. C. Clarke novel - review request
Date: 17 Apr 86 22:51:58 GMT

        I noticed the other day that Arthur C. Clarke has a new
novel out (sorry, I forget the name).  After reading the short blurb
on the back cover I was amazed at how similar to James Hogan's
Voyage From Yesteryear the plot seemed to be.  Has anyone read this
new book and would care to review it?  Is it, indeed, like
Yesteryear?  Is it better?

Personally, I think that Yesteryear is Hogan's most interesting
novel.

Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP:{ihnp4,decvax,seismo,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs }|\
     {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}\
     !pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: FUGITIVE IN TRANSIT by Edward Llewellyn (mild spoiler)
Date: 6 Apr 86 15:48:46 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "When Peter Ward saw the lone woman standing in the ruins of an
  obscure temple on a remote Greek island and singing Sappho in the
  original Aeolic Greek, he may have thought her a goddess, but he
  would never even have imagined her true identity.

  For Ruth Thalia Adams was a singular entity. Although she appeared
  as a beautiful athletic young woman, no one was even sure of her
  species.  And "Alia" as she was called by the Galactic Transit
  Authorities had more mysteries than just her species. No one on
  Earth knew what it was she had done, but to the Auld Galactic
  Marshall, she was the most dangerous individual in the spiral arm
  and had to be caught. He had chased her through several hundred
  worlds to no avail, but now he had her cornered -- for Earth was
  the end of the line!"

An accurate description, but there's more of interest. For example,
the location for the story is Earth in the near future. Aulds are
beings from another planet who, to some extent, are in charge of
supplying electrical power to the population of Earth. This doesn't
win them much goodwill because they are reluctant to share their
advanced technology, and they refuse to allow Terrans to travel in
the galaxy.

The story follows a number of beings: Thalia and Peter, of course,
the Auld Marshall, and Dr. Bose, who first encountered the Auld.
Another important player appears later in the book.

The relationship between Dr. Bose and the Marshall is interesting.
Some of the doctor's human characteristics rub off on the Marshall,
for instance.

Things move along fairly quickly; I never found myself bored, though
the author has a funny habit of interrupting the story to give a
2-page thumbnail sketch of a character when he first appears.  I
enjoyed learning about the galactic culture, and all of the
characters were appealing in their own ways.  I couldn't predict
what would happen from one moment to the next, and I didn't guess
Thalia's identity. And the ending was a real surprise.

I enjoyed the book quite a lot and give it 3.0 stars (very good) out
of 4.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re:  Brooks/McKiernan <FLAME ON!>
Date: 18 Apr 86 16:53:33 GMT

The rumor I heard about McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is that it
was suppose to be a sequel to The Lord of The Rings but the
publisher made him change all the names because they couldn't get
permission from JRRT's estate.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: the inscription upon the West-gate of Moria (was Re:
Subject: Tolkien)
Date: 19 Apr 86 03:01:17 GMT

raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA writes:
>... Gandalf and company are about to enter through the mountains of
>Moria.  They come to a door set into the mountain with elfish
>script adorning it.  The script translated says in effect "Say the
>elfish word for friend, mellon, to enter". ... Legolas, the elf,
>was part of the company at this point but he never gave a word of
>help.

The reason is simple.  The text upon the doors was `pedo mellon a
minno'.  This translates equally well into both `Say ``friend'' and
enter' and `Speak, friend, and enter': `pedo' is the imperative form
of the root `ped' `to speak', and the sentence could well be
commanding friends to speak out loud in order to enter.  This was
Gandalf's original mis-translation; and it sufficed to mislead
everyone.  I dare say I would have been fooled too.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: BotNS words
Date: 19 Apr 86 17:15:39 GMT

>From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
>Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words
>Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find
>out more about is "orichalk".

  The easiest way to find out about Urthian words is to get a copy
of "The Castle of the Otter", a book by Gene Wolfe about TBotNS.  It
has an entire chapter devoted to the vocabulary, as well as other
chapters talking about how the book came to be, etc. (One chapter is
the fave jokes of each character, told by the character!).
  Originally available from Zeisling Bros., now out of print and
expensive, but also available from Science Fiction Book Club for
about $6.50 or so.

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Another SF Poll entry
Date: 17 Apr 86 06:32:00 GMT

All right, I finally will succumb to the SF poll.  Reluctantly,
because I find it difficult to give non-complex answers to simple
questions.

All-Time Favorite SF:  LORD OF LIGHT (Zelazny)

   Runners-up:  (in no particular order)

    SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (Wolfe)
    THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (Heinlein)
    RINGWORLD (Niven)
    TO YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO (Farmer)
       (with a special "hiss" for the fourth volume in the
        series, THE MAGIC LABYRINTH.)
    STAND ON ZANZIBAR (Brunner)
    STARTIDE RISING (Brin)
    THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS (LeGuin)
    THE DISPOSSESED (LeGuin)
    TRUE NAMES (Vinge)
    THE WITCHES OF KARRES (Schmitz)
    THE FOUNDATION TRILOGY (Asimov)
       (with "boos" for the later volumes)
    THE TACTICS OF MISTAKE (Dickson)

All-Time Favorite Fantasy:  NINE PRINCES IN AMBER
  (with exponential decay on the quality of the succeeding books.
  Sigh.)

  Runners-up:

    THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS (Anderson)
    OPERATION CHAOS (Anderson)
    A MIDSUMMER'S TEMPEST (Anderson)
    THE INFERNO (Niven & Pournelle)
    PEREGRINE PRIMUS (Avram Davidson)
    BORED OF THE RINGS (National Lampoon)
    ONCE AND FUTURE KING (White)
    A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA (LeGuin)
    THE FACE IN THE FROST (John Bellairs)
    DRAGONSONG (McCaffrey)
       (a cut above the rest, which are okay in general, except
       MORETA, which is TERRIBLE -- mainly because she wrote herself
       into a corner with a bad end.)

Favorite Writer: Roger Zelazny

  Runners-up:

    Poul Anderson
    David Brin
    Gordon Dickson
    Ursula LeGuin
    Larry Niven
    Gene Wolfe

Hardest to Put Down: see favorites.

Most Unusual:

   THE GODS THEMSELVES (Asimov)
   THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE (Dick)

   (both are good, even if not favorites)

Favorite Series/Cycle:

   KNOWN SPACE (Niven)
   EARTHSEA (LeGuin)
   LOTR (Tolkien)

Best Written:

    SF -- LORD OF LIGHT (Zelazny)
    FANTASY -- ONCE AND FUTURE KING (White)

  Runners-up:

    SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (Wolfe)
    STARTIDE RISING (Brin)
    LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS (LeGuin)
    NINE PRINCES IN AMBER (Zelazny)

Most fun:

    RINGWORLD (Niven)
      (though RINGWORLD ENGINEERS was one of the most tedious,
       yet another disappointing sequel)

Best short story:

    (tie) (nearly impossible for me to break)

    THE GAME OF BLOOD AND DUST (Zelazny)
    UNICORN VARIATIONS (Zelazny)
    AND I ONLY AM ESCAPED TO TELL THEE...  (Zelazny)
    SUMMER SOLSTICE (Charles Harness)
    THE SPECTRE GENERAL (Theodore Cogswell)
    THE STAR (Clarke)
    NO TRUCE WITH KINGS (Anderson)
    FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON (Daniel Keyes)
    THE HELL-BOUND TRAIN (Robert Bloch)
    WEYR SEARCH (McCaffrey)  (first Pern work)
    ZEEPSDAY (Dickson)
    GONNA ROLL THE BONES (Lieber)

Works I am most embarrassed about reading/liking:

   Heinlein & Norton juveniles (but some of Heinlein's are better
   than many of his adult works)

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780
hplabs/hao/ico/ism780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780

------------------------------

From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley)
Subject: Poll results
Date: 16 Apr 86 17:45:08 GMT

Well, here's the summary of answers to my poll.  I have reason to
believe I lost some mail during a disk failure, so if your answers
aren't included, I'm sorry.

> 1.  Most overrated book.  What's the worst SF book you've read
>that lots of other people thought was great?  Even that won a
>Nebula/Hugo?

Not much consensus on this one.  A couple of people took exception
to my dislike for _Childhood's_End_, but one supported me.  The
winners (?) are:

   _Childhood's_End_ (Arthur C. Clarke)  (2 votes)
   _Dune_ (Frank Herbert)  (1 vote, 2 mentions)

Both people mentioning _Dune_ said they thought it was a good book,
but overrated.

Others receiving votes were:

   _The_Sword_of_Shannarra_ (Terry Brooks)
   Anything by Samuel R. Delany
   _To_Your_Scattered_Bodies_Go_ (Philip Jose Farmer) (1 vote, 1
      mention)
   _Starship_Troopers_ (Robert A. Heinlein)
   Anything by R.A. MacAvoy
   "Dragonriders of Pern series" (Anne McCaffrey) (1 vote, 1
      mention)
   _Ringworld_ (Larry Niven)
   "Amber" series (Roger Zelazny)  (1 vote, 1 mention)
   _The_Dream_Master_ (Roger Zelazny)

Also mentioned:
   Almost all Star Trek novels, including the original James Blish
       stuff.
   _They'd_Rather_Be_Right_ (Clifton & Riley) (mentioned as being
       the worst Hugo winner)
   Anything by Philip Jose Farmer.
   Anything by David Gerrold, Alan Dean Foster, Stephen Goldin.
   _Time_Enough_for_Love_ (Robert A. Heinlein)
   The sequels to _Dune_ (Frank Herbert)  (2 mentions)
   Anything by L. Ron Hubbard.
   "Press Enter" (story by Varley)
   "Illuminati" series (Robert Anton Wilson)
   _Where_Late_the_Birds_Sang_ (?)

> 2.  Most underrated book.  Ditto, but this time something you
> liked that nobody else seemed to care for much.

Even less consensus here (no book mentioned twice), but lots of
leads to (maybe) good books.

   _The_Bug_War_ (Robert Asprin)
   The Stars My Destination (Bester)
   _A_Fall_of_Moondust_ (Arthur C. Clarke)
   _Triton_ (Samuel Delany)
   _The_Black_Cloud_ (Fred Hoyle)
   "Dancers At The End of Time" trilogy (Michael Moorcock)
   _Inferno_ (Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle)
   The three Anthony Villiers adventures -- _Masque_World_,
      _The_Thurb_Revolution_, and _Star_Well_ (Alexei Panshin)
   _Pavane_ (Keith Roberts)
   _Dying_Inside_ (Robert Siverberg)
   _The_Demon_Princes_ (Jack Vance)  [actually 5 books]
   "The Butterfly Kid" and "The Absolute at Large" (?)

Two books were mentioned that I thought had been generally
considered good:

   _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ (Robert A. Heinlein)
   _The_Dispossessed_ (Ursula K. LeGuin)

(I'd have to agree that _The_Dispossesed_ has gotten less attention
in recent years than its quality really deserves.)

> 3.  Worst writer that manages to stay fairly popular in the field.
> You know, that guy that has a great following but you can't choke
> him down?

The big winner, with 5.25 votes, is

   John "Librarian Of Gor" Norman,

followed closely by

   Frank Herbert (2.5 votes).
   Edgar Rice Burroughs (2.25 votes)

Others recieving votes were:

   Isaac Asimov (1.5 votes)
   J. G. Ballard (.25 votes)
   Gordon R. Dickson (.5 votes)
   George "Piglet" Effinger (.25 votes)
   Robert L. Forward (1 vote)
   Robert A. Heinlein (1.5 votes)
   Damon Knight (.25 votes)
   Barry Malzberg (.25 votes)
   Andre Norton (.25 votes)
   Jules Verne (.25 votes)

> 4.  Book you're most ashamed to admit you like.  (Answers
> anonymous of course.)  [One respondent said he calls these "guilty
> pleasures".]

No fewer than 5 (!) people gave their nod to

   The "Lensman" series (E. E. Smith).

(I guess I've got to try these.)

Others mentioned:

   The "Scorpio" series (Alan Burt Akers)
   _The_Sword_of_Shannarra_ (Terry Brooks)
   The Commander Grimes stories (A. Bertram Chandler)
   _Fear_ (L. Ron Hubbard)
   The "Elric" series (Michael Moorcock)  (2 votes)
   _Footfall_ (Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle)
   Most books by A. E. Van Vogt
   _To_Die_In_Italbar_ (Roger Zelazny)
   The Thieves' World series.

------------------------------

From: hamachi@KIM.BERKELEY.EDU (Gordon Hamachi)
Subject: STOP!  ENOUGH!
Date: 18 Apr 86 04:55:10 GMT

It is excruciatingly unenlightening to read everyone's all time
favorite list of books ... IF all you are going to do is list their
titles.  If you must broadcast your preferences to the world, please
try to shed a little more light on your opinions.  Otherwise, if I
simply want to look at titles, I can always go to the bookstore!

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 14 Apr 86 16:58:53 GMT

The funniest science fiction book I have ever read was Heinlein's
_Stranger_ in_a_Strange_Land_.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: Re: Humorous SF request
Date: 17 Apr 86 12:14:44 GMT

Don't forget `The Witches of Karres' by James Schmitz (sp?).

Not quite belly-laugh stuff, but a continuous high level of
amusement throughout.

Of course, there's always the `Lensman' books . . .

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.co.uk>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 15:10:08 GMT

How about the "Stainless Steel Rat" Series by Harry Harrison? Or, by
the same author, "Star Smashers Of The Galaxy Rangers" - a very
funny parody of E.E. (Doc) Smith type books, especially the
"Skylark" series ("They looked at one another and smiled, knowing
she was just a simple hysterical woman..."); and "Bill The Galactic
Hero" - sideswipes at Heinlein, the "Foundation" books etc.

There's also a book called "Sleeping Planet" by William Burkett
(Jr?) - similar to E.F. Russell's "Next Of Kin" which I've seen
mentioned.

Other than that, I agree with all the others I've seen mentioned,
especially "Bored Of The Rings"...

"He would have slain him then, but pity stayed his hand."
"Pity I've run out of bullets", thought Frodo...

David Allsopp

------------------------------

From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 17 Apr 86 05:53:00 GMT

Sorry, I haven't read "The Colour of Magic," so I don't know if
these are in the same vein, but they ARE funny, at least to me.

PEREGRINE PRIMUS, Avram Davidson
BORED OF THE RINGS, National Lampoon
various Hoka stories, Poul Anderson & Gordon Dickson
  (the early ones are best, the later ones seem forced)

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780
hplabs/hao/ico/ism780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Apr 86 0900-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #83
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Card & Cherryh & Heinlein &
                   Hogan & Pohl & Robinson & Vinge &
                   Funny SF (6 msgs),
           Films - The Quiet Earth,
           Miscellaneous - Author Addresses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cad!grady@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Grady)
Subject: With a Tangled Skein
Date: 18 Apr 86 20:36:54 GMT

I finally saw With_A_Tangled_Skein, by Piers Anthony, the third in
the Incarnations of Immortality series (this one dealing with Fate)
in a bookstore the other day.  I then checked some libraries, and
although they all had it, all of the copies were checked out.. Has
anyone read it yet?  How does it compare to the first two?

Steven

------------------------------

From: mcnc!bnrrtp@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley T. Chow)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game
Date: 19 Apr 86 03:24:10 GMT

        Speaking of _Ender's Game_ and Orson Scott-Card, do yourself
a favor, read it.  It's probably the best SF novel I've read in
quite awhile.  Its gonna win the Hugo this year.  Also, while you're
at the con, definitely catch Orson's "Secular Humanist Revival
Meeting", I hear it's going to be the last time he does it, and it's
an experience you don't want to miss.

Jay Denebeim
the known world|mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 23:40:42 est
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: _The Kif Strike Back_

I disagree with the recent review of Cherryh's TKSB, as follows:

1. Synopsis/ending - at least in the DAW paperback edition, there is
an "author's note" at the end, detailing that this is "the middle"
of something that is only being published as a trilogy because the
industry requires that.  I am reading them in order, others should
also, but in the DAW paperback the fact that it is related to the
other books is mentioned in a prominent synopsis immediately
following the star map.  If anyone wants to argue the resolved
conflicts/clean ending issue any more, I suggest they get the
author's viewpoint from the "note".  I expect Cherryh will clean up
the business between Pyanfar and Hilfy in the next volume, and the
only thing I ask is that they get it out ASAP (promised 1/87).

2. Dialect - I find that Cherryh's dialect dialogue resembles real
events much more than the carefully sanitized Queen's English some
other authors use.  It is certainly more original than using
pseudo-cockney wherever communication gets fuzzy.  I *do* find that
I have to go back and re-read some scenes to be sure (for instance,
Tully's political revelations), but I don't mind, and anyway a *lot*
of what the trilogy is about is communications problems.  It is a
thread that is found in several of her other books as well,
particularly _Voyager in Night_ and _Hunter of Worlds_.

I liked the book a lot, and I note with keen interest that the
author is framing up a *big* universe, with potentially 13 or more
races in contact (*** mild spoiler warning ***) - this book
explicitly unites the Hani's region with that described in
_Downbelow Station_, _Merchanter's Luck_ and _40,000 in Gehenna_.
_Serpent's Reach_ and _Port Eternity_ come later, also in human
space. _Hunter of Worlds_ is probably connected, but I'm not sure
exactly where.

jbvb@AI.AI.MIT.EDU
James B. VanBokkelen

------------------------------

From: mcnc!bnrrtp@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley T. Chow)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest (Spoiler)
Date: 19 Apr 86 01:13:17 GMT

anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes:
>I must agree. I found the ending quite chaotic and confusing. Did
>anyone else who read the book get the impresion that the ending
>actually was the killing off of Lazurus, Hazel, and the characters
>from his other stories?

   I don't agree at all.  Look at how _Time_Enough_for_Love ended.
The situations were quite similar.  LL was left bleeding to death in
a foxhole in that one.

   As I'm a guest on this machine, (I don't even know if my name is
going to be right) and my normal machine doesn't get this news
group.  Please reply by mail to jay@ethos (the known
world!mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay)

Jay Denebeim

------------------------------

From: bacall!iketani@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Alive Computers
Date: 19 Apr 86 03:23:23 GMT

Another good book dealing with "alive computers" is James P. Hogan's
"The Code of the Lifemaker", hardback version June 1983, paperback
version in June 1984, published by Ballantine/Del Rey.  The first
part of the book details the evolutionary path for an alien Von
Neumann machine (ie self replicating) that is damaged and crashes on
Titan.  He goes into depth about the development of their robotic
genetics and the mutations that allow for robotic evolution.  The
rest of the book deal with the first contact between the robotic
civilization that develops and man.  I thought it was very well
done.

d. todd Iketani
ARPANET         iketani@USC-ECL.ARPA
USENET          usc-cse!iketani

------------------------------

From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (G.M. Paris)
Subject: Review: Coming of the Quantum Cats
Date: 18 Apr 86 22:54:56 GMT

The Coming of the Quantum Cats
Frederic Pohl / Bantam Spectra / May 1986
ISBN 0-553-25786-2

If you're like me, you probably pick up books by Frederick Pohl
because you've read one or two that you liked (e.g., "Gateway").
Maybe you've picked up a couple (e.g., "Man Plus," "Black Star
Rising") that you didn't like too much at all.  "The Coming of the
Quantum Cats" falls into the second category (bad).

The book is about the beginnings of travel between parallel
universes.  Parallel universes are not new to science fiction, so
the reader might expect to find some interesting and/or original
ideas to supplement the multiverse supposition, but alas, if there
are any, I must have missed them.  I found the most interesting part
of the book to be the non-standard disclaimer found at the
beginning.  It warns that some characters are not quite fictional --
the frequent mention of contemporary political figures seemingly an
attempt to substitute for interesting plot/dialogue/characters.  A
plot summary?  What little plot there is isn't worth the trouble.
What's worse, it all leads up to an ending worthy of nomination as
one of the great trivial endings of all time.  This book left me
feeling as though I had wasted more time reading it than Pohl took
to write it.

My recommendation: don't buy it, but if you do, read it only if you
are bored.  If you want to read interesting stories about parallel
universes, I suggest you look elsewhere.

[Somebody let me know when Pohl writes a good book again.  Until
then I'm discontinuing my habit of picking up his latest.]

Greg Paris
{allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

From: mcnc!bnrrtp@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley T. Chow)
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson: a request for information
Date: 19 Apr 86 03:53:00 GMT

        Spider Robinson shows up fairly often on the east coast.
Depends on what part of the east coast you're talking about.  He
lives in Nova Scotia and frequents the cons up there quite a bit.
By the way I had the pleasure of meeting him about 10 years ago at
Mid-Americon in Kansas City, he's as interesting in person as his
books are.  I hadn't read any of his stuff at that time, but have
since become quite a fan.  I seem to remember one panel with Jerry
Pournelle and Spider Robinson, needless to say, it got quite lively.

Jay Denebeim
<the known world>|mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay

------------------------------

From: orstcs!nathan@caip.rutgers.edu (nathan)
Subject: Bobbles
Date: 17 Apr 86 09:13:00 GMT

Re: Bobbles

Continuing discussion of an excellent book, "The Peace War" (Vernor
Vinge):

Vinge peeled all kinds of bananas with this idea.  Only with extreme
self discipline could a believable story follow one in which bobbles
are available to all -- not even Niven could handle this one.
Fortunately, our Vernor has self-discipline (he learned it while
trying to program in Forth).

Carrying a bobble in your pocket is the first thing *anyone* thinks
of; certainly, one would expect the Peace command center to contain
a few bobbles before the goodguys ever get near it.  The next idea
is to inject thousands of microscopic bobbles into your bloodstream.
Then you only risk losing your hair and your suntan.  The problem
with these schemes is that then you can't bobble yourself up when
someone starts shooting at you, or whatever.

Now, my two questions: first, why didn't Wili bobble up Della Lu the
first chance he got?  second, is the "Bobbler" worse than Star
Trek's "Transporter" for demolishing (otherwise) good plots? ("...
and what about Mary Lou?")

Nathan C. Myers         nathan@oregon-state

------------------------------

From: csun!lkw@caip.rutgers.edu (Larry Wake)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 17 Apr 86 23:34:43 GMT

> Try the following:
...
>       Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison

The title is BIL THE GALACTIC HERO, and it was one of the funniest
sf books I'd ever read...is it still in print?  I read it back in
early high school days, and haven't been able to find a copy since.

Larry Wake
CSU Northridge Computer Center
uucp: {ihnp4 | hplabs | psivax}!csun!lkw
BITNET: RETPLKW@CALSTATE
ARPA: RETPLKW%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re:I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 00:38:00 GMT

>    (3) The High Crusade (3 Hearts & 3 Lions) Poul Anderson.

     Point -- The High Crusade is NOT the same as Three Hearts and
        Three Lions.  Both are good, and both have elements of humor
        mixed in.

     Also see, THE DRAGON AND THE GEORGE, by Gordon Dickson.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780
hplabs/hao/ico/ism780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780

------------------------------

From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 19 Apr 86 11:32:14 GMT

OK, OK, enough people have posted about those stupid Myth books that
I feel safe in taking a stab at this.

Frederic Brown tends to be light hearted.

Jack Vance has some good light fantasy. I read _The_Eyes_of_the_
Overworld_ and liked it; _The_Dying_Earth_ is supposedly similar. I
found _The_Colour_ _of_Magic_ very reminiscent of _Eyes_. Some of
his other stuff is also on the silly side.

There is a book whose title is something like _The_Incredible_
Umbrella_ which is very similar to the Harold Shea series. Very
good.

Laumer has a series of books including _The_World_Shuffler_ that are
comparable to his Retief stuff.

There is a series of stories about an inventor named Gallagher. He
has a vain robot; I'm afraid I can't remember the author.

In another vein, remember Thiotimoline?

j

------------------------------

From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 17 Apr 86 04:57:10 GMT

There is one more book in the "Another Fine Myth" series: Mything
Persons.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 17:40:47 GMT

Additional funny SF books from European authors:

  Stanislaw Lem, "The Cyberiad"
  Stanislaw Lem, "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub"
  Italo Calvino, "Cosmicomics"

The last is not exactly SF, and is probably unclassifiable.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 18 Apr 86 17:42:14 GMT

Additional funny SF books I've recently enjoyed:

  Jody Scott, "Passing For Human"
  Rudy Rucker, "Master Of Space And Time"

Cheers, BIll Ingogly

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE QUIET EARTH
Date: 17 Apr 86 22:56:04 GMT

                          THE QUIET EARTH
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Last survivors on Earth have to figure
     out what has happened to everyone else.  Some intriguing
     ideas but the basic plot is old hat.

     In 1951 Arch Oboler made the film FIVE about a limited number
of people who had survived a nuclear war.  Every so often Hollywood
makes another film about the last handful of people in a
post-holocaust world.  Notable was THE WORLD, THE FLESH, AND THE
DEVIL, a 1958 film with Harry Belafonte and Mel Ferrer as the last
people on Earth and of course in a love triangle.  The same
situation arose in THE LAST WOMAN ON EARTH, a Roger Corman quickie
made in 1960.  In the '58 film an experimental super-bomb apparently
dissolved everyone; in the '60 film something in the air did the
same.  In a TV movie called WHERE HAVE ALL THE PEOPLE GONE? a solar
flare does the honors.

     Most recently it was New Zealand doing the three-survivor film.
THE QUIET EARTH IS A FILM THAT VERY MUCH RESEMBLES THE WORLD, THE
FLESH, AND THE DEVIL.  Once again we have white man/white
woman/black man as the last people on Earth with the two men
competing for the affections of the last woman.  If this plot had to
be done again, at least it was done with quality filmmaking and some
style.  The characters are better than the 50's stereotypes of the
previous film versions.

     What sets this film apart is the force that de-populated the
world.  Since the explanation is the most intriguing part of the
film I will avoid spoiling it here.  I came out of the film saying
1) the cause could not have happened, 2) given that it did happen
there could not have been ANY survivors, 3) given that there were
survivors what made the difference between who survived and who
didn't is absurd, and 4) given that what decides who survives really
decides it is an absurd coincidence that someone who could figure
out what happened was also a survivor.  Dale Skran (who some of you
might know) defended the film on all four points.  By my figuring he
bested me on (1) and (2), tied on (3), and lost on (4).  I still
think the idea is impossible, but it does bear some thinking about.

     Suffice it to say this may be a better film that it at first
appears to be and deserves a modest +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

     I do have a philosophical complaint about the film.  One of the
characters feels terrible remorse for having worked on a scientific
project whose results could have been used for evil.  I guess this
is a natural outgrowth of a pacifist sentiment growing in New
Zealand.  My question to the filmmaker would be just how much human
progress could have ever taken place without anyone working science
that could have been used for evil.  Most of my career I worked on a
data network that could have been used by a repressive government
for keeping tabs on its citizens.  The knowledge of how to immunize
against smallpox makes it possible to infect your enemies at no risk
to yourself.  Find ways to increase food production and you find
ways to control others with the surplus.  No field of scientific
research is entirely harmless; it is just that most are less risky
than stagnation.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Author addresses (Was Somtow Sucharitkul)
Date: 17 Apr 86 18:22:23 GMT

ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes:
>...Fenmail addressed to authors at home has been known to be used
>for landfill, for reasons I must admit I understand, if not
>sympathize with...

On the other hand, my experience has been that most authors seem to
not mind or even like polite and coherent letters sent with SASE.

There is also a publication the name of which I NEVER remember that
lists an author's preferred mailing address for all such things --
call your local reference librarian.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 86 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #84
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Holdstock & King & Laumer &
                   McKiernan & Pangborn & Simak & Vinge &
                   Wilson & Sister Planet & 
                   Anachronisms (2 msgs) & SF Poll & 
                   Author Request,
           Films - Legend,
           Television - Tripods,
           Miscellaneous - Using Copyrighted Material & 
                   Interesting Fen Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 1986 09:00:19-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re: Battle Circle

I heartily concur with the Battle Circle recommendations.  It's one
of the few later Anthony works that doesn't seem to degenerate into
silliness.  (I found my copy at the B. Dalton bookstore in
Philadelphia.  They have a pretty good selection - or did when I
lived in town.)

Brian Clapper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 86 09:01 EST
From: Roz <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Mythago Wood

I just got back from a 2+ week trip and read the following in Volume
11, Issue 56:

>Hot tip: get a copy of MYTHAGO WOOD by ____ Holdstock.  Everyone I
>heard speak about it gave rave reviews, including the editor who
>stuck her neck out to get her House to Publish it.  I'm reading it
>now and can't put it down.  It is excellent....and hard to find.

I've meant to write about this book ever since the topic of typos
came up.  I got my copy from the Science Fiction Book Club.  I
ALWAYS read the dust jacket of the book before reading the book
itself.  Mythago Wood has two brothers in it; the jacket talks about
the story in terms of the two brothers and their relationship to
good and evil.  My dust jacket consistently referred to one brother
as "good" and the other as "bad"; as a result when I read the book I
kept waiting for the brothers to do a personality swap!  It never
happened...that's the biggest typo I've ever seen!  I enjoyed the
book, but I had more unanswered questions when I was done than when
I started.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 86 10:58 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
To: draper@lll-tis-b.ARPA
Subject: Steven King on cassette

"The Mist" is a production of ZBS Media; it was part of a series of
mystery and horror readings that they produced for NPR a couple of
years ago.  I have seen the cassette, but haven't heard it.  From
what I understand, "The Mist" is an excellent reading, with music
and sound effects recorded using binaural miking techniques... the
tape is best listened to via stereo headphones, so that you receive
the full (startlingly real) spatial imaging that binaural miking
provides.  There's apparently one moment at which you can hear a
giant spider descending upon you from above... I've heard it's
extremely realistic.  ZBS has a history of technical excellence in
its radio serials and airplays... "The Mist" is reported to be one
of their best efforts.

   The ZBS Foundation
   RR #1, Box 1201
   Fort Edward, New York 12828
   (518) 695-6409

I understand that two versions of the tape are available... they
have exactly the same material on them, but one is a conventional
mass-duplicated tape, and the other is a real-time dubbing on
chromium dioxide tape... lower noise level & better sound.

A Change of Hobbit (my favorite SF bookstore) in Santa Monica, CA
has at least one copy of the audiophile version... (213) GREAT-SF if
you're interested.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 86 11:43 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Warning: Lark's vomit

>From: stephen@datacube
>Being a little miffed, I decided to post the following sleazy bit
>of marketing:
>
>I was at my local WaldenBooks today, and saw a new Retief novel,
>"Retief and the PanGalactic Pageant of Pulchitrude", on the shelf.
>After purchasing this novel, I discovered the title referred to a
>relatively poor short story, and the rest was the novel "Retief's
>Ransom", which I had read already in another anthology currently in
>print. Careful examination of the outside of the book revealed on
>the back, towards the bottom, the legend "Plus: the full length
>novel, Retief's Ransom". No mention is made of this fact on the
>front cover.  The publisher, incidently, is Baen Books. I present
>this information as a public service, and hope that other netters
>who come across such tactics will post them here soonest.

I got caught by this one as well.  This is the second time Baen has
pulled this stunt with a "new" Retief book.  In the previous case,
the new story was a bit short, so they filled in with an older
Retief story which I had already read.

In future, I plan to avoid anything published by Baen.

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: McKiernan
Date: 19 Apr 86 09:08:36 GMT

markb@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Mark Biggar) writes:
>The rumor I heard about McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is that it
>was suppose to be a sequel to The Lord of The Rings [....]

As I heard it---and this is only a two-person indirection chain so
is more likely to be accurrate---the Iron Tower trilogy was written
as background information to the original sequel, wherein the
Dwarves attempt to retake Moria.  It should be interesting!  Now if
only it will be printed....

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1986 09:57:38 EST
From: NEVNT%NERVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Vicki Turner)
Subject: Edgar Pangborn

Is anyone familiar with the works of Edgar Pangborn?  (Davy, A
Mirror for Observers, Still I Persist in Wondering (short stories)
....)

He was a wonderful writer, and unfortunately died in the late
Seventies. He also wrote several works of general fiction, one of
which I have been trying to locate for 2 years!

Does anyone have an extra copy of Pangborn's THE WILDERNESS of
SPRING?

This particular book is not SF, and was published, I think, in 1957.
I have tried to find it everywhere. (Spider Robinson has several
copies of it, according to his foreword in Still I Persist...) If
anyone is willing to part with a copy, please let me know. I'll take
any copy regardless of the shape it's in.

Thanks.
BITNET:   nevnt@nervm
INTERNET: nevnt%nervm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
ATT:      904-392-2061
USPS:     Vicki Turner
          NorthEast Regional Data Center
          107 SSRB
          Univ. of Florida
          Gainesville, FL 32611

------------------------------

From: ihuxl!elron@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary F. York)
Subject: Re: Clifford Simak
Date: 19 Apr 86 19:26:30 GMT

> Thanks for posting the interview with Clifford Simak. One of my
> favorite writers, years ago. Anyone remember "I Trade with You my
> Mind"?

Yes indeed!  From _Time is the Simplest Thing_.  I read it first as
a teenager and have reread and enjoyed many times since.

While we're on the subject: do you recall the book, another one
dealing with time, in which the author incorporates himself as a
very minor, not particular appealing, character called "Old Cliff"?

Gary York

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: The Peace War
Date: 21 Apr 86 16:05:27 GMT

hollande@dewey.udel.EDU writes:
>The idea of keeping small bobbles around for protection was
>certainly covered in the book.  ... They developed complex
>[bobblers].

OK, the general consensus seems to be that I either read it with my
eyes shut, or else the book covered more detail than the
serialization.  Since I read it twice and don't remember any hint of
defensive bobbles, and only a brief mention of the Peace Authority
improving their bobbler at all, I'll assume the latter (until
someone points out page numbers in the magazine).

I thought it was unfortunate (and unlikely) that bobbles couldn't be
bobbled, but I guess it was necessary for the story (otherwise the
PA could have used multiple concentric bobbles to increase the
time-lapse).  Too bad; I had this idea that maybe the rebels would
be able to bobble the entire earth, possibly with some critical PA
resources on the outside where they'd crash before the bobble
burst... Naw, it wouldn't work anyway.  Oh well.

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 86 22:28:14 PST
From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech)
Subject: F. Paul Wilson

   Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have found
only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would like
more if they exist.
   Thanks,

Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon)
Caltech Computer Science Graphics Group

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: "Sister Planet"
Date: 18 Apr 86 13:19:48 GMT

"Sister Planet" can be found in:
   ALL ABOUT VENUS (edited by Brian Aldiss)
   FAREWELL, FANTASTIC VENUS (edited by Brian Aldiss and Harry
      Harrison)
   GET OUT OF MY SKY (edited by Leo Margulies)

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl)

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboards
Date: 21 Apr 86 15:36:39 GMT

LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU (Stephen R. Balzac) writes:
>Well, how about the guy in "Lost:Fifty Suns" who has an electronic
>sliderule?  Now that's futuristic for you.

I remember a book called "The Brass Dragon" (I think) in which one
of the humanoid aliens says to the primitive Terran "Yes, we use
sliderules too -- of course they're much more powerful than yours."

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboard
Date: 21 Apr 86 16:09:13 GMT

daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes:
>I seem to recall extensive use of slide rules in James Blish's
>"Cities In Flight" series, despite The City Fathers being very
>large and intelligent computers.

I don't remember seeing sliderules, but I was amused by the presence
of vacuum tubes in the spindizzies.

>I wonder what current sf ideas about computers or future technology
>will seem utterly ridiculous fifty years from now.....

Practically all of them.

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 07:15 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: SF Poll

First attempts at sf poll:

All Time Favorite: LotR;Martian Chronicles

Favorite Author: tie: Bradbury; Cordwainer Smith

Most Interesting/unusual: Pastel City by M.John Harrison

Best Series: Fafred and Grey Mouser/Covenant Trilogy

Best Written: Tolkien /Bradbury but a lot of obscure stuff too.

Honorable Ballyhoo's: Mindbridge - Haldeman;Some Lensman stuff(a
chablis, not a claret); The Shattered World - Will Shetterly (i
think, or was that Cats Have No Lord?); Some Anthony, and lots of
Herbert!

Most over rated: Heinlein,water-bro or no, I don't like his stuff!
I'm only holding this title till I find out if he wrote Window in
the Sky, which I loved in High School.

Favorite Short Story: another one for Obscure Buffs: Ariadne Potts
from some early seventies F&sf ish.

Hardest to Put Down: LotR/Dune --cost me a grade point average for
reading Dune in Chem lab.

c78kck@irishmvs

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Who wrote this?
Date: 22 Apr 86 02:05:24 GMT

yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu.UUCP writes:
>In fact, in one of his short story collections he commented on the
>incredible number of people who have read this story, remembered
>the plot in detail, but have forgotten the author.

Yes, I remember reading that he'd even had a conversation something
like this:

Caller: Dr. Asimov, there's a story I read once and I think you
    might have written it but I don't remember exactly how it went.

I.A.:   I did write it, it's called "The Last Question", and the
    plot was...

Leaving the caller with the impression that Asimov can read minds
via phone.

I've been tempted to find his phone number and play the following
practical joke:

K.H.:   Dr. Asimov, there's a story I read once and I think you
        might have written it but I don't remember exactly how it
        went.

I.A.:   I did write it, it's called "The Last Question", and the
        plot was...

K.H.:   No, that's not it.  There was a world with six suns that
        didn't have any night, until only one sun was in the sky and
        it was eclipsed.

I.A.:   Oh.  I wrote that one too, the title is "Nightfall"...

K.H.: No, that's not it either.  Oh, I just found it in my library;
        it's called "Dawn" and it was written by ________, not you.
        Sorry to bother you.

I wonder how Asimov (supposedly an egomaniac) would react?  :-)

Btw, while writing the above I tried to find the story so I could
fill in the author's name.  Unfortunately, it appeared in Analog in
1981, and I didn't subscribe until 1982 (I read the older issues at
the library).  Does anyone know who wrote this?  (Egad, we're almost
back to the original query!)

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)

------------------------------

From: inuxa!rmrin@caip.rutgers.edu (D Rickert)
Subject: Legend
Date: 19 Apr 86 19:07:00 GMT

I caught the last fifteen minutes of "LEGEND" yesterday after
enjoying "Sleeping Beauty" for the umpteenth time.  It's another
fairy tale with unicorns and such so nothing more needs be said
about the plot, you either like such things or you don't.  The
acting was agreeably wooden, not a great loss considering the plot.
The sets and makeup were very good, straight out of Fellini at his
best.  In fact, since I knew nothing of the movie when I slid in the
back of the theater, I immediately assumed I was watching an Italian
import.  It bothered me a lot (for some reason) that what I assumed
was dubbed sound had such good lip sync.  According to the credits,
it is an American/British film with production units in Calf, NY,
and London, which I guess explains the good lip synch.  Tangerine
Dream was credited with some of the music and, in some ways, the
movie reminded me of a slick MTV video (but without constant
background music).  Some Kung Fu was thrown in for lovers of that
sort of thing (I'm not, so I can't comment on its quality).  All in
all, as escapist as "Return to OZ" but on a more adult level (all
the kids had come over to see "Sleeping Beauty with me, the audience
for "Legends" was all adult).

Dick Rickert
AT&T CPL
Indy, IN

------------------------------

From: ags@pucc-h (Dave Seaman)
Subject: Re: The Tripods TV series
Date: 20 Apr 86 00:46:27 GMT

fitz@ukecc.UUCP (fitz) writes:
>    I have seen the series you are talking about. I thought it was
>rather well made, considering the budget I heard of, and the fact
>that the Tripods themselves would be hard to film. I saw most of
>the series, and about 9 of the second. (There are three series in
>all, one for each book.) I recommend it, but I think one would have
>to make judgement only after seeing it, as people's tastes vary.

I have seen all of the first and second series, but as far as I
know, the third series has not been made.  I have even heard rumors
that it may never be made.  I have to agree that the series is worth
watching, even though there is a monumental cliffhanger at the end
of the second series which may never be resolved.

Dave Seaman
pur-ee!pucc-h!ags

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 07:15 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Copyrighted material

In reference/deference to authors, how do you (subjectively) feel
about fan art or stories that use 'copyrighted' characters? I've
heard the WaRP spiel, but how does the prevailing wind blow in
Fandom?

c78kck@irishmvs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 86 07:15 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Interesting Fen Stories

NEW TOPIC (I hope): interesting fen experiences...

My favorite storyies involve finding Card,Orson Scott in the local
phone book and then having him autograph it. And getting pinched on
an elevator at Inconjuction by Marion Zimmer Bradley....

c78kck@irishmvs

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 86 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #85
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Card & Lovecraft &
                   Offutt & Palmer & Tolkien (3 msgs) &
                   Trout (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Zahn (2 msgs) &
                   Alive Computers & Author Correction &
                   Funny SF (4 msgs) & One-shots,
           Television - Buck Rogers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mpm@hpfcms
Subject: Re: OX, ORN, Omnivore .....
Date: 17 Apr 86 06:06:00 GMT

  Try reading them in this order: Omnivore, Orn, and finally OX.  I
got the impression that "Omnivore" started as a novel, and later
Anthony added the other books.  (Given his penchant for trilogies,
he probably couldn't stop at two.)  The latter books show the
"mushroom-type critters" in a more positive light than the first.

  By the way, the title of the third book is actually:
                 --
                 OX
                 --
But who can do a good job of it on a terminal screen?

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: With a Tangled Skein
Date: 21 Apr 86 14:31:24 GMT

I posted a review of "With A Tangled Skein" when it first came out,
but here's a quick summary.

Practically nothing happens in the book.  The ending is *grossly*
artificial.  The build-up to the ending (i.e. the first part of the
book) is limp.  The protagonist is characterless.  Anthony once more
demonstrates his patronizing attitude towards women (which was
mostly missing from "On a Pale Horse", but present in "Bearing an
Hourglass").

In other words, the book is not worth reading EXCEPT...there is one
very nice scene featuring the Incarnation of War taking on all the
students in a Karate School.  War is an interesting character, which
means that the next book in the set may turn out to be worth
reading.  If it is, you might want to read "With a Tangled Skein"
for completeness and background.  But this is certainly the weakest
book of the series so far.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game
Date: 21 Apr 86 02:25:44 GMT

jay@ethos (Jay Denebeim) writes:
>       Speaking of _Ender's Game_ and Orson Scott-Card, do
>yourself a favor, read it.  It's probably the best SF novel I've
>read in quite awhile.  Its gonna win the Hugo this year.  Also,
>while you're at the

   I HOPE not. It was good, but not that good. But then, my choices
often don't win (I wanted _Anubis_ _Gates_ to win, for instance).
Maybe we should have our own net.minihugo?

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft / Necrinomicon
Date: 21 Apr 86 05:00:31 GMT

It was full of Geiger's artwork (the weird, organic machine look,
like he did for "Alien"), which was probably its purpose (it was a
while back, so I don't remember if it had stuff like witch's brew
formulas, etc. in it.)

Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane
bane@parcvax

------------------------------

Date: Mon 21 Apr 86 23:09:19-EST
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: andrew j. offutt

>I liked _Rails Across the Galaxy_, by Offutt & Lyon, ...

Shouldn't it be "offutt" instead of "Offutt" ?  I remember reading
somewhere that he doesn't capitalize his name.  It was in the
postscript to a story he wrote, but I can't remember which one.  Can
anyone help?

It was about a girl who lived in a hospital because her father
refused to pay the bill for her birth.  She eventually becomes
legally responsible for herself and pays the bill, but it takes
twenty-one years.  offutt supposedly based this on an event from his
life (also in the postscript), in which he threatened not to pay the
bill.  Something like that.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 09:33 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Palmer vs. Heinlein

I've read _Emergence_ and _Threshold_.  I liked Emergence quite a
bit (though I haven't read enough Heinlein to know about the "xerox"
effect; I like what I've read of Heinlein, but everyone else says
he's boring, so we'll drop the subject.) but thought Threshold was
not nearly as good.  Though he has some good ideas for the "new"
setting on Isis, his plot falls short (can you say OverDramatic?).

I'll give him a chance, though, and read whatever the sequel to
_Threshold_ is...

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET>

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 07:32:54-CST
From: Tim McGrath <CS.MCGRATH@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tolkien (Gandalf and the entrance to Moria)
To: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA

I believe Gandalf's 1st translation was 'Speak, friend, and enter';
he later changed the interpretation to 'Say "friend," and enter'. A
substantial difference, at least in English.  This didn't bother me;
at least, I also had some trouble seeing the obvious while under
pressure. As for Legalos, he was a young wood elf, and they have
their own elvish dialect. He may only have had a passing
acquaintance with the High-Elvish dialect inscribed on the door --
if I remember my dates correctly, that high Elvish script would have
been written MILLENIA before Gandalf and company made it there.
After all, how many people today still speak Latin as it was used
during the time of Christ?

Tim (CS.MCGRATH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 09:30 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Tolkien (or, There's a Hole in my Plot, dear Liza, dear Liza)

Someone asked (in #79 I believe) why Legolas didn't volunteer to
help Gandalf with the door.  The way I read it is that Gandalf had
no trouble translating the Elvish words ("...pedo mellon...")  etc.
He correctly translated them as "Speak, friend, and enter".  No
doubt that is how Legolas would have translated them, for there was
a distinct ambiguity about the punctuation as presented on the
doorway.  It was only until later that Gandalf realized that it
meant "Speak 'friend' and enter", and again he properly translated
it back into Elvish "mellon".  (That old use-mention distinction
again -- too bad Douglas R. Hofstadter wasn't born into Middle
Earth...)

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET>

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 11:51:39-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: The Mines of Moria

The quote is "Speak Friend and enter". Legolas could not be expected
to know what this meant, being a wood elf, and besides, a relatively
young one. I found that perfectly believable. Besides, Moria was the
historic home of the dwarves, I don't remember why the message was
in elven, but even a high elf might not know this bit of lore,
knowing the dwarves..... Someone out there probably knows the reason
the message was in elven without having to go look it up -- so?

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 09:34 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Kilgore Trout

Does anyone know who really wrote _Venus_on_the_Half_Shell
(purportedly by Kilgore Trout)?  It didn't seem like normal Vonnegut
style.  I heard somewhere it was Philip Jose' Farmer, but I haven't
read enough of his works to know (I'm behind on classic sf).

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.Bitnet>

------------------------------

From: cernvax!mnl@caip.rutgers.edu (mnl)
Subject: Re: I want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 20 Apr 86 22:54:50 GMT

marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without mention
>of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout!

   If you are thinking of the book "Venus on the Half Shell", by
Kilgore Trout, it was actually written by Phillip Jose Farmer, not
Kurt Vonnegut.  Funny book, yes.

Mark Nelson
mnl@cernvax.bitnet or ...!seismo!mcvax!cernvax!mnl

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: BotNS words
Date: 21 Apr 86 20:46:00 GMT

The genius of Wolfe's universe is that his new vocabulary sounds to
our ears familiar...

Mike Krantz

------------------------------

From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn
Date: 21 Apr 86 04:57:14 GMT

Is Timothy Zahn all that good? I've read one book, "Cobra", and
thought that it was interesting, but sexist. He TRIES to not be (he
mentions the COBRA students as being men and women) but the females
are clerks or screaming agents who must be rescued. The cobras you
meet are all male. Oh, yes, the main character's mother - for some
inexplicable reason, she is ALWAYS in the kitchen, washing the
dishes (get this!) by HAND. And this in a technologically advanced
society that can produce the Cobras, among other amazing things.
Geez! That's as bad as the guy in "Enemy Mine" talking about how his
mother was a waitress who gave up her job to get married ... Geez!

oh, yes, are his other books (after "Cobra") any better?

Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane
bane@parcvax

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 07:30 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Tim Zahn Speech

  Excerpt from Tim Zahn GOH speech,CONTRAPTION,April 26th,
 Southfield Michigan.

 CLIMBING THE LADDER OF SUCCESS AS A WRITER.
 STEP ONE:
      Have a good,secure job so you can earn a living while you
      learn to write.
 STEP TWO:
      Have that secure job knocked out from under you.
 STEP THREE:
      Having lost your secure job, find that you're not qualified
      for another one.
 STEP FOUR:
      Decide that "What the heck, I might as well try writing for
      for a while"-also known as "You can't fire me, I quit!"
 STEP FIVE:
      Enlist the moral support of family and friends who believe in
      you but think you're making a class six mistake.
 STEP SIX:
      Set a realistic goal for becoming a writing success...
      preferably one that allows you to eat once in a while.
 STEP SEVEN:
      Make a name for yourself among your readers by writing lots of
      great stories.
 STEP EIGHT:
      When you've got that first novel ready to go,attract the
      attention of a good agent and a publisher--preferably in that
      order.

------------------------------

From: mkent@violet.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (/violet_d/mkent)
Subject: Re: alive computers (Neuromancer!)
Date: 19 Apr 86 05:55:10 GMT

I haven't seen anyone mention "Neuromancer" by William Gibson.  Not
only does it feature intelligent computers, it also includes some
very interesting characterizations of "human computer interfaces" of
the future.  I recommend it highly. .  .

Marty

------------------------------

From: mpm@hpfcms
Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll
Date: 17 Apr 86 05:59:00 GMT

Re:  correction on author of Hoka stories

   Gordon Dickson and POUL ANDERSON (not Carr) wrote the Hoka
stories.  (I just finished "The Sheriff of Canyon Gulch" or somesuch
and enjoyed it immensely.)  I don't think Carr ever wrote anything
this (intentionally) humorous.  (But he sure can edit a mean
anthology!)

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

From: mpm@hpfcms
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 17 Apr 86 06:14:00 GMT

  I practically cried from a VERY funny satire of the Tom Swift
books I read as a kid.  In this one, the heroes while being the
usual "brains" also happen to be gay lovers, which is "slightly"
upsetting to the mandatory "female love interest".

  Could this be "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers"?  I'm pretty
sure the author was Harry Harrison, but I don't think it was "Bill,
the Galactic Hero".  Anyway, I recommend it highly, along with Piers
Anthony's "Prosthro Plus" if you can find it.

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 21 Apr 86 04:47:59 GMT

Oh, boy, no one's mentioned one of my FAVORITE fantasy humour books:
"Bridge of Birds" by somebody Hughart, I believe (in the H's,
anyway).  I loved it! The blurb says something like "A tale of
ancient china that never was." I heartily recommend it, and would
appreciate it if anyone knew anything else written by the same
author (and let me know, of course). The book has everything you
could want in it, a mystery, good guys, bad guys, hoaxes, oh, it's
been a while, I'm going to reread it.

This is a find I made while randomly browsing in a book store.  I've
found some really terrific stuff that way (I really liked
"Frostflower and Thorn"), as well as some absolute HIDEOUS junk
(like some book, I forget the title, but it was subtitled "Diane
Santee, space agent" or some such, see, I was looking for books with
women as main characters, but this one turns out to be one who
really gets off on rape and slavery, etc. The author claims to be
one Sharon Greene, but if it was written by a woman, I'll be
EXTREMELY surprised. By the way, I returned the book (got my money
back) after flipping through about *100+* pages of detailed
description of women being "trained" as slaves, begging for sexual
relief from their masters .... uck! The woman at the cash register
said it was a *series*, and the second one had something like "if
you liked the Gor novels ..." on the cover!

Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane
bane@parcvax

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: I want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 21 Apr 86 17:54:26 GMT

How about Fredric Brown?

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 10:18 EST
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Funny Fantasy

You should also try the novels "The Dream Life of Balso Snell" and
"Cool Million" by Nathanial West.  Not only will you be amused, you
will also learn where Kurt Vonnegut Jr.  got his prose style.

------------------------------

From: bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors.
Date: 22 Apr 86 09:26:35 GMT

>From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
>I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but I
>haven't seen anything more from their authors.
>
>1) _Wave Rider_ by Hilbert Schenck [...]  2) _The Zen Gun_, by
>Barrington Bayley [...]
>
>Is it simply my local bookstores, or have both of the authors
>folded their tents and stolen away?

One I'd like to hear about is Patrick Tilley (?), who wrote
_Cloud_Warrior_ a couple of years ago.  It was supposed to be part
of a trilogy, but in two years, I haven't seen a second book to it.
. . .  Does anyone know what's happened to it?  _CW_ just came out
in paperback, but none of the local book shops seem to have heard of
anything else by him (one wouldn't even admit the book existed).

Michael Justice
bitnet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
UUCP:    ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
CSNET:   boreas@bucsb%bu-cs.csnet

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@caip.rutgers.edu (The Doctor)
Subject: Re: Buck Rogers
Date: 20 Apr 86 19:56:16 GMT

>From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM
>If you watch Buck Rogers long enough and listen carefully you will
>find several references to other science fiction characters and
>authors.  In fact in the last episodes of the series there war a
>character named Commander (?) Asimov.  I understand it was
>intentional for such references to be on each show.

It was Admiral Asimov, and yes they did state in the show that he
was one of Isaac's decendants.

Joseph P. Ogulin
UUCP:  {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}
       !jhunix!ins_ajpo
ARPA:  ins_ajpo%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.WISC.EDU
BITNET:ins_ajpo@jhunix.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 86 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #86
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony & Holdstock & offutt & Rothman &
                  Tolkien (2 msgs) & Recommendations (2 msgs) &
                  Funny SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Battle Circle
Date: 22 Apr 86 19:25:45 GMT

>From: clapper@NADC
>I heartily concur with the Battle Circle recommendations.  It's one
>of the few later Anthony works that doesn't seem to degenerate into
>silliness.  (I found my copy at the B. Dalton bookstore in
>Philadelphia.  They have a pretty good selection - or did when I
>lived in town.)

Well, make that one of his better earlier works!  Battle Circle was
published as three separate books back in the early 70's.  I do
agree that it's pretty good, as are Macroscope, Ox, Orn, and
Omnivore - but I don't bother reading anything he writes lately.

Seems that stuff that's cute, humorous, mind tweaking at first turns
into sloppy, silly, trite after the author becomes secure in his
position.  Much the same can be said of Farmer's work.

For a rather amusing expose' of this sort of thing, dig up a copy of
a book by Fritz Leiber - The Silver Eggheads - 1961, my copy
reprinted by Del Rey around 1979 ISBN 0-345-27966-2.  Seems to me
that 'word wooze' was the key element.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) <rick%essex.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Monday, 21-Apr-86 15:56:51-BST
Subject: Robert Holdstock

Good to see that Bob Holdstock is getting known on the other side of
the water (ref Don Chitwood's mention of MYTHAGO WOOD in issue #56).
He seems to write in a sort of hinterland between straight fiction
and fantasy, and his perfectly down-to-earth characters find their
lives being dominated by what appear to be quasi-mystical forces.
Further, he tends to pose questions that keep the reader thinking
long after they have finished the book.
  I haven't really expressed myself very well; the best advice is to
go and read his work. MYTHAGO WOOD is his most recent, and
undoubtedly the best to date - if you enjoy that, look for the
earlier books; "Earthwind" and "Eye among the Blind", as you will
surely enjoy them too.

Rick Blake
rick%uk.ac.essex@cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: styx!fair@caip.rutgers.edu (Erik E. Fair)
Subject: Re: andrew j. offutt
Date: 23 Apr 86 06:16:37 GMT

Both the story you describe and the editorial introduction (by
Harlan Ellison) are in `Again, Dangerous Visions.' According to
that, andrew j. offutt does not capitalize his name.

Erik E. Fair    styx!fair       fair@lll-tis-b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 11:51:38-PST
From: Roger Crew <Crew@su-sushi.arpa>
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors.

As long as someone's brought up the subject, I've got one of my own
that I was curious about

_The_World_Is_Round_ - by Tony Rothman -

  The basic plot involves a rather large (ridiculously huge) planet
having strange, slow periods of rotation & revolution (so strange
that the inhabitants have no concept of ``day'' or ``year''),
explorers from a far-off, (relatively) typical earth-like world, who
come seeking metallic hydrogen (i.e., fortune), a large group of
natives that desparately want to leave the planet as it is such an
obnoxious place to live, and lots of subplots....

The main theme is that of setting aside preconceptions and trying to
discover the true nature of the world one lives in.  The science is
rather solid, as far as I could tell (I believe the writer was a
physics grad student at the time he wrote this).  In fact, this is
one of the few sciece fiction works I've seen that really convey a
sense of what science is all about.  The characterizations are
excellent.  Highly recommended.

Has anybody seen anything else by this author?

roger

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 Apr 86 11:17:07-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: doors of Moria

The inscription on the doors of Moria were written in Quenya (High
Elvish).  Legolas, as a wood-elf, would speak Sindarin as "common
elvish" and his own local dialect at home.  He wouldn't know Quenya
-- very few elves did.  Read The Silmarillion to find out why.

The doors of Moria were built for Durin III (I think) by
Celebrimbor, the leader of the elves of Eregion (Hollin) which was
the last nation of Quenya-speaking elves on Middle-Earth.

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Speak, friend and enter
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 12:13:04 PST

It isn't true that Legolas could have helped Gandalf in this case.
For one thing, the dwarvish runes above the West Gate of Moria are
in Quenya, or high Elvan.  Legolas, a wood elf, spoke Sindarin, a
later form of elvish with many differences.  And Gandalf was
perfectly satisfied that he knew all the words in the runes.

Quenya bears roughly the same relationship to Westron (the common
tongue of men in the third age) as Latin does to English; anyone who
has tried translating Latin will recognize Gandalf's confusion and
sympathize with it.  Gandalf's original translation was "speak,
friend, and enter"--he thought this meant that friends of the
Dwarves would have known the password and said it, and he tried many
commands which were used in similar situations.  Eventually he
realized the translation should have been "say 'friend' and enter".
Note that the clarity of meaning is transmitted primarily by the
punctuation in the English; there wasn't any punctuation in the
runes to aid Gandalf.

Christe McMenomy
Rand Corporation

------------------------------

From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations - fancy language
Date: 21 Apr 86 23:01:14 GMT

> From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
>       On the grounds that there are always new readers on this
> list (or in this newsgroup, whatever), I'd like to mention some
> truly classic works of "high fantasy" that have been out of print
> for some time, or might be otherwise neglected.  This collection
> concentrates on use of language.  Some call these horribly
> overwritten; others (such as myself) call them wonderful.  This
> message is intended for those who, due to their rarity, might not
> have heard of them.
>
>       Kai-Lung's Golden Hours
>       The Wallet of Kai-Lung
>       Kai-Lung Unrolls His Mat
>       etc.
>               by Ernest Bramah (Smith)

Since I love this sort of stuff, I went to the county library, and
wonder of wonders, they had "Kai-Lung's Golden Hours"!  1923 First
Edition, no less.  A wonderful book!  I was so excited I forgot to
check the catalog to see if they had any more.

For those of you who raved about "Bridge of Birds", published last
year in paperback, or liked E. Hoffman's Price's effort, whose title
I can't recall, set in Classical China, beg, borrow, or steal these
books!  (By the way Mike, can we talk?)

Also, high fantasy enthusiasts must read Dunsany.  Like Bramah, his
fantasy works have been out of print for quite some time, but
libraries do often have one or more of his books (avoid his later
plays though, there not nearly so interesting).

Jerry (being a net resource is my business) B. can probably supply
all the titles, but look for "The Sword of Welleran", "The Gods of
Pegana", "Fifty Tales", and mixed collections of his short stories.
Tolkien and Lovecraft were deeply influenced by his style and
vision.  Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest for Unknown Kadath" is quite
good, and his longest work.

More later,
b2
{ihnp4,allegra}!bellcore!b2
b2@bellcore

------------------------------

From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham)
Subject: Re: Fantasy rcmmndtns - fancy language -
Subject: corrections/additions
Date: 22 Apr 86 05:00:26 GMT

>For those of you who raved about "Bridge of Birds", published last
>year in paperback, or liked E. Hoffman's Price's effort, whose
>title I can't recall, set in Classical China, beg, borrow, or steal
>these books!  (By the way Mike, can we talk?)

The Price book title is something like "The Devil Wives of Li Po".
"Bridge of Birds" is by Barry Hughart.

>Also, high fantasy enthusiasts must read Dunsany.  Like Bramah, his
>fantasy works have been out of print for quite some time, but
>libraries do often have one or more of his books (avoid his later
>plays though, there not nearly so interesting).
>
>Jerry (being a net resource is my business) B. can probably supply
>all the titles, but look for "The Sword of Welleran", "The Gods of
>Pegana", "Fifty Tales", and mixed collections of his short stories.
>Tolkien and Lovecraft were deeply influenced by his style and
>vision.  Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest for Unknown Kadath" is quite
>good, and his longest work.

Gods of Pegana - 1905
Time and the Gods - 1906
A Dreamer's Tales - 1910
The Book of Wonder - 1912
Fifty-One Tales - 1915 (many set in "the fields we know")
The Last Book of Wonder - 1916
Tales of the Three Hemispheres - 1919 (mostly Oriental tales)
The King of Elfland's Daughter - novel

Ballantine has published 5 paperbacks of Dunsany, they are for the
most part difficult to impossible to find.

At the Edge of the World
Beyond the Fields We Know
The Kind of Elfland's Daughter
The Charwoman's Shadow
The Chronicles of Don Rodriguez or Don Rodriguez: Chronicles of
Shadow Valley. (I don't know which - Ballantine has it both ways)

Lovecraft's short novel is "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath",
again published by Ballantine, and of course long out of print.
More recent editions might be available.

Ballantine's Adult Fantasy series presented fantasy lovers with a
long string of wonderful classics, many of which hadn't been print
for 50 to 189 years ("Vathek", William Beckford's masterpiece).  My
library of classic fantasy consists almost exclusively of used
paperbacks from this series.  "The Shaving of Shagpat", by George
Meridith is another classic high fantasy enthusiasts won't want to
miss.  One can try William Morris ("The Well at the World's End",
"The Water of the Wonderous Isles") as well, but there is little
humor and a lot of slow passages in his writing.

For those with great grit and determination, try Spenser's "The
Faerie Queene" (Penguin, $12.95(!!)).  A tough epic poem.  I've
never come close to finishing.

For high fantasy in print, Jack Vance is, in my opinion, the best
and most consistent author working today.  His recently published
sequel to "Lyonesse", "The Green Pearl", was the first trade
paperback I've ever bought.  I couldn't wait for it to come out in
mass market size 9 months from now.  His dialog never ceases to
astound and entertain me.  It is well worth the exhorbitant price.
His "The Dying Earth" seems to have been re-released last month, so
look for it.

Tanith Lee's "Night Master" and other "Master" books are also
excellent, but don't display the same level of wordplay that makes
books like "Lyonesse" and "Kai Lung..." so special for me.

Happy Reading! (Happy Hunting!)

b2
b2@bellcore {ihnp4,allegra}!bellcore!b2

From "The Green Pearl":

"That is good to hear!" declared Lord Pirmence. "But alas! You
forget my advancing years! I have enemies, yes: pangs and aches,
failing vision, asthma, toothlessness and senile cachexis; but they
are no longer cruel knights, ogres, Goths and Moors.  I intimately
know the ague, gout, rheumatism and palsy.  If truth be known, I am
almost ready to creep away to castle Lutez, to wrap myself in
eiderdowns and quite my roaring digestion with a diet of curds and
gruel."

Aillas said soberly: "Lord Pirmence, I am greatly distressed to hear
of your decrepitude."

"Alas! It is an end to which we all must come!"

"So I am lead to believe.  Incidentally, are you aware that a person
who bears a striking resemblance to yourself roams the coarser
districts of Domreis? No? He does your reputation no credit!
Recently, close on midnight, I happened to look into the Green Star
Inn and there I saw this person with one foot on a bench, the other
on a table, brandishing high a tankard of ale and trolling a mighty
stave; meanwhile he clasped one of the tavern wenches with an iron
grip.  His whiskers were exactly like your own and he seemed to
enjoy an excess of exuberant good health."

"How I envy the man!" murmured Lord Pirmence. "I wonder at his
secret!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 13:32:07 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@bbnccb.ARPA>
Subject: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF

Aside from the afore-mentioned "High Crusade" (Poul Anderson),
here's some more I haven't seen mentioned yet:

  HALF A HOKA, Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson (stories) Classic.
    Hokas are smallish furry critters (they predate Ewoks by ~ 2
    decades, BTW) that like to read fiction and are overly
    suggestible.  Written with tongue firmly in cheek.

  ASTRA & FLONDRIX, Seamus ????.  True SF erotica/porn (no human
    involved). Probably not arousing to our species, but damned
    funny.

  SPATIAL DELIVERY and another novel whose name I forget, Gordon
    Dickson.  Humorous, as in comedy of errors.  Good like most
    Dickson.

  FANTASIA MATHEMATICA and THE MATHEMATICAL MAGPIE, ed. Clifton
    Fadiman.  The original collections of mostly math pieces,
    humrous and otherwise interested.  Hard to find.  Still good.
    "Subway Named Moebius", "Star, Bright" and many others, by sf
    writers, mathematicians and other cognoscenti.

  THE PHANTOM TOLLBOTH, Norm Juster.  Not just another kids book.
    Illustrated by Jules Feiffer.

I'm sure we've still barely scratched the list.  Will someone post a
summary in another month?  How about all the works of Robert
Scheckley, John Collier, Gahan Wilson, etc., not to mention
(sometimes) Ron Goulart, Harry Harrison, "Creatures of Light &
Darkness" (Zelazny), John Sladek ...

daniel dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

From: uokvax!cdrigney@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 21 Apr 86 03:27:00 GMT

gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>(9) Tzadick of the Seven Wonders by Habilum was OK.
>He has another humorous novel whose name I forgot.

You may be thinking of _The Wilk are Among Us_.

I'd recommend Buck Coulson & Gene DeWeese' _Now You See It/Him/Them_
and the sequel _Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats_, both set at
worldcons.  Better yet is Christopher Anvil's _Pandora's Planet_ -
"The natives are no longer to be referred to as puffheaded
loptails!"

Carl Rigney
USENET:         {ihnp4,allegra!cbosgd}!okstate!uokvax!cdrigney

------------------------------

From: gladys!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White)
Subject: Re: Funny SF & F
Date: 20 Apr 86 23:22:44 GMT

Another series that's not been mentioned much yet is Chris
Stasheff's WARLOCK series.  There are currently 6 books that I know
of in the series, and they are:
  A Wizard In Bedlam
  The Warlock In Spite of Himself
  The Warlock Unlocked
  Escape Velocity
  The Warlock Enraged
  King Kobold Revived

The series is set in a time after the great emigration from Earth
and Earth is attempting to rediscover all the "lost" colonies.  The
hero of the story is a young man who goes to one of these colonies
with the intentions of guiding them back into galactic civilization,
and finds he's landed on a planet where he, among many others, has
magical powers.  I found the whole series a lot of fun to read.

Bob White
ihnp4!burl!gladys!bob
5123 Ramillie Run
Winston-Salem, NC  27106

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 86 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #87
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Apr 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:

           Books - Brust & Heinlein & Offutt & Pangborn &
                   Pohl & Alive Computers & Funny SF (4 msgs) &
                   One Shot Authors,
           Films - Legend (3 msgs)
           Television - Buck Rogers,
           Miscellaneous - What does "fen" mean?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 05:54:36 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Jhereg/Yendi

Loose paraphrase: "Did anyone catch the Sherlock Holmes reference"

For that matter, did anyone besides me catch the quote from Monty
Python & the Holy Grail?  "She'll turn you into a newt."  "I'll get
better."  or something like that.

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 18:52:06 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: killing off Heinlein characters

   I wonder how many people are going to msg in noting that Lazarus
Long is unequivocably NOT "bleeding to death in a foxhole" at the
end of TIME ENOUGH TO SCREW AROUND; his clone-daughters and others
come back in time to just the right instant and pick him up
(although the daughters react like valley girls to the sight of
bloodguts&).

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: andrew j. offutt
Date: 23 Apr 86 22:12:50 GMT

I checked the Analog issues in question, and the name was
capitalized there (in the TOC and also in the blurb from the
previous issue).  I hadn't heard of this before.

Coincidentally, in a story I'm writing there is a character who
insists on a monocase name -- now I'll probably be sued.  :-)

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Edgar Pangborn
Date: 23 Apr 86 17:39:14 GMT

>From: NEVNT%NERVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Vicki Turner)
>Does anyone have an extra copy of Pangborn's THE WILDERNESS of
>SPRING?
>
>This particular book is not SF, and was published, I think, in
>1957. I have tried to find it everywhere. (Spider Robinson has
>several copies of it, according to his foreword in Still I
>Persist...) If anyone is willing to part with a copy, please let me
>know. I'll take any copy regardless of the shape it's in.

    So will I.  This book is HARD TO FIND!  A friend, who is an avid
book collector and bookstore owner/operator, says that until last
year, he had only ever SEEN two copies, one of which he bought.  He
subsequently got another copy, so I got to borrow his older copy to
read (actually, his roommate's copy).  Wonderful book.

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 1986 13:55:48 PST
Subject: Quantum Cats
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

The Coming of the Quantum Cats,  by Fred Pohl

I must say I disagree with the previous review of this book.  I
think its the best Pohl has written in years (which isn't saying
much, though).

I have found that his other more recent stuff (i.e. the last 15 years)
such as Jem, Man Plus, and the Gateway trilogy to be barely worth
reading.  I never did manage to get through the last book of the
series.

Quantum Cats is much better.  It's not a classic and its a standard
alternate timelines type of story, but is fun to read.

(One timeline has a wimpy Jerry Brown as president, another has
NANCY Reagan as president, with Ronnie as first househusband.)

Alan (Katz@USC-ISIB.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 86 10:48:14 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Alive Computers (Heart Of The Comet)

Haven't seen a mention yet in this context of Benford & Brin's HEART
OF THE COMET. In it, there is an "organic matrix" computer that
almost is alive (there are repeated comments to the effect that the
"genius programmer" who is responsible for it could tell that it was
"mimicking" life); but it is implied, near the end, that it really
is alive (and nobly self- sacrificing, to boot).

By the way, to speak generally of this book -- I found it
technically interesting and inventive, but I found myself despising
most of the characters (maybe that means they were well done, to
inspire such emotion? Nonetheless, I prefer reading books where I
enjoy the action, as opposed to having a feeling of distasteful
expectation of the next unpleasantness to follow).

Will

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 20 Apr 86 17:07:00 GMT

guy@slu70.UUCP writes:
>My all time favorite is "The Butterfly Kid" (author forgotten)
>although post sixties-generation types may find it a bit dated.

Chester Anderson wrote the Butterfly Kid.  It had a sequel called
the Unicorn Girl written by Michael Kurland (who has written a fair
bit of other funny stuff) and that in turn had a sequel written by
someone else whose name I've forgotten and which I never found.

These were interesting in that Chester, Michael and this other guy
are all characters in all the books.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86  8:32:57 EST
From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Funny F & FS

As I keep rediscovering, the Gallegher the drunken inventor stories
were written under the name Lewis Padgett by Henry Kuttner, a
favorite author of mine.  (Especially the Padgett ones.)

I'm glad to see references to Frederic Brown ... I had forgotten
him.  Author of the much anthologized story "Arena" (Trekkies should
remember the episode loosely based on it), he wrote a book of short
stories I ran across years ago containing a number of stories,
mostly funny, often related to the typeset printing industry, and
interleaved with two page short shorts.  (He also wrote at least two
amusing mystery novels about a young man and his uncle, semi-pro
private detectives who reside in a boarding house -- the title of
one sticks in my mind: "Mrs. Murphy's Underpants".)

I want to add a story (I think by Sturgeon) that sticks in my mind:
"The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff," collected in a Boucher two
volume classics collection the name of which I have forgotten.

"Fantasia Mathematica" and its sequel, both edited by Clifton
Fadiman, each contain a story by Martin Gardner (the first is called
"The No-Sided Professor"), for those who want some light mathematics
based SF.

JBL
Arpa:   levin@bbncc2.arpa
Usenet: {world}!bbncca!levin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 09:10:10 est
From: Carol Morrison <carol@cipg.mit.edu>
Subject: Funny F & SF

I say again, "Esther Friesner."

Humorous short stories in Amazing:

BUT WAIT!  THERE'S MORE!  (collaboration with her husband)  11-84
A FRIENDLY GAME OF CROLA   09-85
DRAGONET   01-86

Novel:  HARLOT'S RUSE

Of these, DRAGONET is the funniest, being a fantasy told in the
style of Jack Webb: <I was proud of the black-and-white.  Not many
castles had one.  Not many would.  It was a bear.  Not your ordinary
bear, but a foreign model, imported all the way from the mountains
of Cathay.>

BUT WAIT!  THERE'S MORE!  runs it a close second, though.  It's a
sendup of fantasy cliches in the manner of hardsell TV and magazine
ads: <The human hand can split boards, but watch how clumsy it is
severing this ogre's head.  Yee-uch!>

I've already reviewed HARLOT'S RUSE.  The pacing was a bit frenetic,
but she definitely has a way with words, and I suspect she hasn't
peaked yet.  Keep an eye on this one!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 19:12:28 est
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: humorous SF

   There have been several anthologies of humorous SF; as you might
expect, the "humor" in many of the stories is rather strained. Worth
reading: NOT IN \THIS/ WORLD (?), edited by Idella Purnell Stone,
and INFINITE JESTS (ed Silverberg?). The latter contains a real
wonder: an incredibly funny piece called "Useful Phrases for the
Tourist [in High Locrine?]" by, of all people, Joanna Russ. The
phrases have a cumulative effect (rather like Aldiss's Confluence
phrasebook in one of Merril's anthologies) but are all wild
slapstick: IN THE HOTEL
    That is my companion. It is not intended as a tip.
    This cannot be my room because I cannot breathe ammonia.

AT THE HOSPITAL
    Placing the thermometer there will yield little or no useful
    information.

ON THE TOUR-BUS
    At what hour does the lovelorn princess fling herself into the
    volcano? May we participate?

and so on, all in the stilted language typical of 50's
teach-yourself-to-speak-X books, and all descending rapidly into
chaos.

BTW, have I been asleep or has nobody mentioned Ron Goulart? (fgrep
finds no instances in the last 3 weeks worth of digests!) Most of
his books are about thoroughly whacked-out people acting as if
whatever they're doing is perfectly normal; after the first couple
of dozen this can pall, but an occasional dose of Goulart is a good
antidote to normality.

CHip (Chip Hitchcock)
ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
uu: ...{!harvard,!cbosgd,!zeppo}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 11:34:24 est
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: One shot authors

Besides the mentioned _The Zen Gun_ (of which I had never heard),
Barrington Bailey has a published collection of short stories,
called _Knights of the Limits_.

I did buy and read that, though it is probably out of print by now.
I concur that the stories aren't particularly well done, but the
premises are fascinating (e.g., a solid universe where you tunnel
through to travel ?!).

Tony    (abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu)

------------------------------

From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 23 Apr 86 04:38:15 GMT

DISCLAIMER: I didn't go to this movie on purpose.  There's only one
theater within walking distance of where I live, and it wasn't until
I walked all the way there that I realized that there was nothing
else showing that wasn't either (a) something I'd seen already, or
(b) pure shit.

I saw Legend this weekend, and have mixed feelings.  Basically it's
about the good guys trying to keep the bad guy (Tim Curry as Satan,
but for some reason the movie makers wouldn't say it outright, so
they had the characters refer to him as "the big D") from killing
the only two Unicorns in the world and getting their horns.

This movie was so camp and hokey that the audience was giggling
before the opening titles were finished running.  There was no plot
continuity whatsoever.  We never find out who the heroine is (it's
hinted that she's a princess of some kind, but we never learn more).
We never find out exactly who the hero is other than that he's some
kind of woods geek.  We certainly never find out how the princess
met, let alone fell in love with this unkempt woods geek.  There's
some sort of ritual involving throwing a ring into a river, but its
relavence to saving the universe is completely lost.  Why does the
wood sprite hide the fact the fact that she can turn into a winged
human at will from everybody but the hero?  Why does she have the
hots for the hero in the first place?  Don't ask me, I'm still
trying to figure the princess out.  We're led to believe that by
somehow reflecting some sunlight off a chain of platters to get it
down into hell will help fight Satan off.  When the light finally
arrives, it (a) blows the doors off the wall, and (b) has no effect
on Satan at all so the hero has to use his kung foo to save the day.
They make a big deal out of his magic sword, but when the big fight
scene arrives, it's mysteriously written out of the script.

HOWEVER

Tim Curry as Satan made the whole thing worth while.  I wish they'd
have had more of him and less of the other two.  Between his acting,
the special effects and his makeup job, he was magnificent.  The
makeup job was by far the best monster makeup I have ever seen in
cinema -- we're talking acadamy award material here.  From the
ridges on his forehead to the cats-eye pupils it was perfect (well,
maybe the horns were a wee bit big).  His acting (he's had a lot of
practices from the RHPS of course) was perfect for the part.
There's one scene in the movie where the heroine is wearing the
low-cut, black (of course) evening dress that satan has given her
and is looking at herself in the mirror.  Suddenly, one of Satan's
hands bursts through the mirror from the other side, and he slowly
steps through the mirror to seduce her.  Wow.  Naturally, she
resists him though; I wanted to shout "no you fool, don't go back to
that woods twerp!".

Summary:

If there's nothing else showing, go see it.

ed falk, sun microsystems

------------------------------

From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 23 Apr 86 04:48:00 GMT

Oops.  How could I forget the chintzy foam-rubber horns super-glued
onto the foreheads of the two white horses?  Watching the two horses
capering in the woods with their horns wobbling this way and that
nearly made me laugh out loud.

ed falk, sun microsystems

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 24 Apr 86 02:19:47 GMT

>> the good guys trying to keep the bad guy (Tim Curry as Satan, but
>>for some reason the movie makers wouldn't say it outright, so they
>>had the characters refer to him as "the big D") from killing the
>>only two Unicorns in the

>...Watching the two horses capering in the woods with their horns
>wobbling this way and that nearly made me laugh out loud.

I don't think that Dark was Satan for one reason: He was talking to
someone and asking that being for advice on how to 'woo' the girl.
I think that the person he talks to is Evil/Satan/whatever.  I kept
hoping all the way through the film that Evil (from Time Bandits)
would jump out and just zap one for no reason, and say 'Sorry about
that, Benson.'  Tim Curry has saved this film for me.  His
characterization of Dark was quite enjoyable.

As for laughing out loud, there's one scene with the girl where
she's walking along in the forest, the wind is blowing, and my
friend blurted out 'This scene would be perfect for a tampon
commercial.'  If I had laughed like I wanted to, I would have been
thrown out of the theatre.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Buck Rogers
Date: 20 Apr 86 17:02:48 GMT

>From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM
>If you watch Buck Rogers long enough and listen carefully you will
>find several references to other science fiction characters and
>authors.  In fact in the last episodes of the series there war a
>character named Commander (?) Asimov.  I understand it was
>intentional for such references to be on each show.

I was at a con in LA -- probably an Octocon but who remembers
anymore -- and had lunch with the fan GoH.  She was a nice young
woman and an active fan who had been hired for the specific purpose
of helping the Buck Rogers people find and write in stuff connecting
it with mainstream SF.  Pike and Admiral Asimov are only a couple of
the cases of this.

I really liked the show -- funny stuff, not bad writing for TV and
Erin Gray in spandex.  What more could one ask?

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 86 11:16:15 EST
From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
Subject: Fen: a query

As an individual unsocialized sf-lover for a long time but a fairly
recent subscriber to this digest, I would be interested in seeing an
etymology and definition of "fen" (I do have some idea what it must
mean).  Also, while I know the meaning of "filksong," I am curious
about its etymology too.

Thanks
JBL

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 86 0823-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #88
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bayley & Brooks & Hughart & Lovecraft &
                  Sladek & Tolkien & Vinge & Wilson &
                  Wolfe (3 msgs) & Funny SF (2 msgs) &
                  Math and SF & Publisher's Tricks (2 msgs),
          Television - Buck Rogers & Star Trek,
          Miscellaneous - Copyrights

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 14:15:53-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Barrington J. Bayley....

has been writing wryly amusing SF for some years, he must have at
least 10 books out, but unfortunately, the American editions are all
DAW, which tend to have an in-print lifetime of about a month, so
you can't find most of his work around, some of which are really
very good. I believe Bayley is English, whether I got that
impression merely from his writing, or from some other source I
don't know, but often the English market never makes it across the
ocean into a decent edition, and vice versa.

------------------------------

From: edison!tzc@caip.rutgers.edu (Trish Cuthbert)
Subject: Re: Re: New terry Brooks book
Date: 21 Apr 86 17:38:31 GMT

I have read the trilogy of the Ohmsford family by Terry Brooks and
loved them all.  My favourite was the last one "Wishstones of
Shannara".  Just purchased a new one called something along the
lines of "MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE: SOLD", but haven't had time to
read it yet.

Tolkien was the beginning of my interest in fantasy, but I thought
his books a little long winded and appreciated Brook's ability to
conclude each story in each book.  Don't get me wrong, Tolkien is
undeniably the master of fantasy, but I think there is room for new
talent whether Tolkien-influenced or not.

Trishy

------------------------------

From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Bridge of Birds
Date: 23 Apr 86 19:40:49 GMT

"Bridge of Birds" was written by Barry Hughart.  It's a fantastic
book, along the spiritual lines (in a way) of Brust's "Brokedown
Palace", which is another wonderful book for people who don't have
to have it all spelled out for them.

I heartily recommend either or both.

I don't know if I'd call them "funny SF" because neither is SF,
rather they are both fantasy.  Bridge of Birds is set in a
long-passed China that never was.

(ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj

------------------------------

From: factron!bbarnett@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Barnett)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft & Necronomicon
Date: 21 Apr 86 09:07:04 GMT

I have always heard that some enterprising author `collected' the
Lovecraft material and added some material from Cthulhu knows where.

A friend who frequents the Shambhala bookstore in Berkeley had
warned me that the editors of the Lovecraft-inspired _Necronomicon_
did their research TOO WELL!. He warned me not to keep a copy in the
house.  [Do I hear therimin music in the distance?]

I would include the graphic for Cthulhu, but the true appearance may
be too much for those inexperienced in such matters :)

Bruce Barnett

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 86 14:43:36 EST
From: KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Oh No! More Funny SF!

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this book but I feel it is
worth reading.

John Sladek's TIK TOK.  It's a British story about a robot who finds
that he is able to go against his robotic laws.  So he does. It's a
twisted story about this robot's life as he goes about killing
people and all sorts of mean and nasty things.

I believe that it won a British science fiction award.

If anyone knows of other books by John Sladek please let me know.

------------------------------

From: magic!b2@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan Bingham)
Subject: Doors of Durin -- a couple of points
Date: 23 Apr 86 15:00:26 GMT

While several people have answered the question about the
riddle/password inscribed on the Doors of Durin, the West-gate of
Moria, here are some details that should clear up some confusion in
those postings.

The Doors were made very early in the Second Age -- when is not
exactly known, but after 700 SA.  Narvi was a dwarven craftsman of
tremendous skill, but Celebrimbor was a grandson of Feanor, the
greatest artificer the world ever knew, and it was he that became
the chief artificer of Eregion.  Some evidence says he was the Lord
of Eregion, but it really seems Galadriel and Celeborn jointly ruled
the territory until events got out of hand.  The Fellowship reached
the doors on 13 Jan 3019 Third Age, around 5700 years after the
Doors were constructed.  Little wonder not much was known about
them, even by Gandalf, since he didn't arrive until around 1000 TA,
and as he mentions later, whenever he went to Moria the doors were
open.

Legolas did not help discover the word nor did he even volunteer to
read the writing.  He was of an entirely different race than the
Noldor, being a Sindarin Elf (Grey-elf).  His tribe, when called on
by Orome to cross the Sea and enter Valinor, went as far Beleriand
then decided to stop.  After the fall of Morgoth his father led
quite a few of his people east across the Misty Mountains to settle
in what eventually became Mirkwood.

Silvan or Wood-elves already lived in area when Thranduil arrived
but apparently had no objection to him setting himself up as their
king.  They were of yet another tribe of elves that didn't even
cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey to Valinor.  So it's
not impossible that Legolas couldn't read or write the Noldoran
tongue, Quenya, but I think it probably that he just kept his mouth
shut while Gandalf answered the question.

b2
{ihnp4,allegra}!bellcore!b2 b2@bellcore

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 13:39:10-EST
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: bobbles

  I can't stand it anymore.  All this talk about bobbles bobbling
other bobbles and microscopic bobbles bobbling the bobbled Earth has
gotten me curious.  What exactly is a bobble?

  I haven't had a chance to read _The Peace War_, and it doesn't
look like I will for awhile (at least until summer).  So will
someone PLEASE clear this up???????

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 86 11:16:20 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM
To: jon@csvax.caltech.EDU

     There was another book, something like "Wheels within Wheels",
and a number of short stories published in Analog through the
seventies.  His stories are fun.  "Healer" is the expanded version
of "Pard" which was published in Analog.  He often tries to make the
point of the best government is that which governs least.

Henry II

------------------------------

From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley)
Subject: Re: BotNS words
Date: 22 Apr 86 16:43:33 GMT

roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words
>Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find
>out more about is "orichalk".

There are four words for different sorts of coins used in
_The_Book_of_ _the_New_Sun_.  In ascending order of value, they are
"aes", "orichalk", "asimi", and "chrisos".  Three of these have easy
derivations.

"Aes" is a Latin word for copper or bronze, or anything made
thereof, especially coins.  It came to mean, in particular, little
tiny brass or bronze coins, and came over into English with that
meaning.  Wolfe uses it thus.

"Orichalk" is an odd transliteration of the Greek "oreichalkos", a
sort of copper ore.  ("Chalkos" is bronze in Greek.  It has plain
nothing to do with our "chalk", which is cognate by a fascinating
route to Greek "chalyx", pebble, and related to Latin "silex",
pavingstone or flint, and English "shell".)  This word was taken
over into Latin as "orichalcum", copper ore or the metal made from
it.  (There's an interesting side line here -- in later Latin, the
word was sometimes misspelled "aurichalcum", getting confused by
folk-etymology with "aureum", gold.  So in English it occasionally
seems to mean gold- coloured copper.)  Wolfe uses "orichalk" for the
large brass coins of the Commonwealth.

"Chrisos", the word for a gold coin in Wolfe, is from Greek
"chrysos", gold.

The hard one is "asimi", the Commonwealth's silver coins.  After
hours of work on this one, I've got to say I'm stumped.  So if
anyone has any plausible guesses, please let me know.  My only
halfway likely guess is that it is somehow derived from "asem", a
technical word in archaeology, meaning a certain alloy of gold and
silver, which comes from the Greek "asemos", "unmarked", although I
don't know what the connection is.

Aren't words wonderful!

John Woolley

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: BotNS words
Date: 23 Apr 86 17:43:05 GMT

krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes:
>The genius of Wolfe's universe is that his new vocabulary sounds to
>our ears familiar...

   The reason it sounds familiar is that it IS familiar - Wolfe did
not make up ANY of the vocabulary, but used obscure words from the
English language.  Read THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, by Wolfe, for
details on the process...

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1986 09:25:56-EST
From: Robert.Firth@A.SEI.CMU.EDU
Subject: What's an Orichalk?

First, orichalk, also called orichalc, orichalcum, is a metal.  The
word is Greek (oreikhalkon - "mountain copper") and occurs in Plato,
where it is described as a metal found only on the Island of
Atlantis.

Naturally, nobody has ever dug up any orichalcum, and nearly
everyone regards the stuff as mythical.  Nor were coins ever made
out of it, since the fabled Atlantis sank long before the invention
of coinage by the kings of Lydia.

However, if you did rediscover orichalcum, or use the name for some
other metal or alloy, it would be quite good for coinage - Plato
said it was harder than bronze and more valuable than any other
metal save gold.

Well, the name of the material used in a coin often gets attached to
its name - eg "Silver Thaler", "Louis d'Or", "Aureus" - and of
course the familiar "nickel".  So it is quite reasonable to call a
coin made of orichalcum an "orichalk".  (Moreover, sound money and
weak governments go together, but that's a digression more
appropriate to Poli-Sci)

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: duncan!bwm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Humor for help
Date: 22 Apr 86 13:21:00 GMT

Well, I'll pay for this information, but it'll be cheap.

Although *Myth* books are probably better, I liked _Glory_Road by
Heinlein for its humor.  At the same time, it used my favorite
method for introducing fantasy into my science fiction, using
Clarke's (?) law that advanced technology (and mathematical models
of reality) will look like magic to the uninitiated.

In any case, the information I seek is the title and source
(believed to be an "Analog" sized magazine) of the following story
line (this is just the beginning and middle, I need to read it again
to get ending).  By the way, I will soon be a professor teaching
decision making, which should explain why I think this story is
worth hunting down.  Anyway...

  Story starts in a space ship, in the quarters of the ship's
  tactical analyst.  The analyst rolls some dice to determine the
  strategy to be used in the next battle.

  Later, the same analyst determines that by his reckoning, his side
  is clearly winning every battle.  The question, why won't the
  other side negotiate?  The answer, because they use a different
  measure of merit, and their calculatons are showing them as
  winning every battle.

You can see the two aspects of decision making that this story would
let me demonstrate to a class of decision makers!

Thanks in advance.

Bruce (ihnp4!pur-ee!pur-phy!duncan!bwm)

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF
Date: 23 Apr 86 17:23:19 GMT

I didn't think "Creatures of Light and Darkness" was a particularly
funny book.... it was a *fantastic* book, in every sense of the
word, Zelazny at his finest and most imaginative, but I didn't find
myself rolling in the aisles.

How about Gordon Dickson's "The Dragon and the George"?

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 23:41:29 PST
From: stever@vlsi.caltech.edu (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Biased as a mathematician

David desJardins writes:
>   Of course, I'm biased as a mathematician; how many SF books can
>you think of which involve something of actual mathematical
>interest (the game of Sprouts)?

Let me highly recommend DEFINITELY MAYBE by Arkady and Boris
Sturgatsky, as containing the best treatment of mathematical
research I have ever seen in SF or elsewhere.

On a much lighter note, Rudy Rucker (PhD in math) has many hilarious
books and short stories about cantor sets, infinities, multi
dimensional spaces etc.  My favorite of Rudy's books is a novel
called WHITE LIGHT.  THE 57th FRANZ KAFKA is an anthology with many
of his mathematical short stories.

Steve

------------------------------

From: watdragon!smkindersley@caip.rutgers.edu (sumo kindersley)
Subject: Baen Books nasty tactics
Date: 23 Apr 86 09:12:18 GMT

>>...relatively poor short story, and the rest was the novel "Retief's
>>Ransom" .. Careful examination of the outside of the book revealed
>>on the back, towards the bottom, the legend "Plus: the full length
>>novel, Retief's Ransom"...
>
>This is the second time Baen has pulled this stunt with a "new"
>Retief book.

I am not sure of bookstore policy in general, but I would absolutely
attempt to return this book, if you have not somehow damaged it in
reading it.  I have never failed to get my money back for a book,
but I have only asked a few times and felt utterly justified.  They
agreed.

Give it a try.  Tell the BOOKSTORE that you dislike Baen's tactics.

uucp: {utzoo|decvax|ihnp4|clyde|linus|allegra}
       !watmath!watdragon!smkindersley
csnet: smkindersley%watdragon@waterloo.csnet
arpa:  smkindersley%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 16:55:45-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>
Subject: Lowdown dirty publishers tricks

In addition to avoiding books published by Baen in retaliation for
their dirty tricks re: the Laumer Retief reprints, you might
consider sending a nastygram (physical USnail, oh no!) to the
publisher indicating that you are doing this and why.  I often think
of boycotting a product, but I figure they'll never notice unless a
lot of people do this and so I have to draw their attention to it.
Usually the response I get from the company is "Well other people
don't object so you're just a turkey", but I keep hoping my letter
will make them see the light...

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 86 15:39:10 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Buck Rogers

>It was Admiral Asimov, and yes they did state in the show that he
>was one of Isaac's decendants.

I thought he only had a daughter?  So how would the name be
continued directly?

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Subject: Star Trek Animateds
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jim White)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 86 09:29:31 EST

Does anyone in Netland know of the availability (and price) of the
Star Trek animateds on video cassettes?  Any info appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Apr 86 14:12:40-EST
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Character Copyright

I don't think characters CAN be copyrighted. The authors can moan
and groan, and maybe trademark protection can apply to, say, STAR
WARS characters, but I don't think ordinary characters and
situations can be held as the sole reserve of an author.

Laurence

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 86 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #89
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:

       Books - Bayley (2 msgs) & Bradley & Kuttner & MacAvoy &
               McKiernan & Moorcock & Schenck & Tolkien (2 msgs) & 
               Vinge & Zahn &  Anachronisms & 
               Parallel Universe Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. (Barrington J. Bayley)
Date: 24 Apr 86 00:07:35 GMT

I don't know about Hilbert Schenck, but I have the following books by
Barrington J. Bayley:
    The Fall of Chronopolis
    The Garments of Caen
    The Grand Wheel
    Soul of a Robot
You may also be able to find several of his short stories,
especially in the "New Worlds" paperback magazine/anthologies edited
by Michael Moorcock.

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: One shot authors
Date: 24 Apr 86 16:40:18 GMT

J. Barrington Bayley has also written "The Pillars of Eternity" and
"The Forest of Peldain".  (Suddenly those names don't sound exactly
right, but the titles are close.)  I liked Pillars a great deal,
mostly for the concept of the hero.  He was severely injured in some
kind of accident and had to be reconstructed by your traditional
advanced tech aliens.  His new bones were entirely filled with
silicon chips, giving him immense mental potential.  To avoid
driving him mad with the suddenly increased thinking power available
to him, most of the circuits were dormant, programmed to wait until
they were activated by a key word or phrase.  The tech types gave
him about 12 different levels of heightened consciousness and were
training him to use the lowest levels when he decided to leave.
Thus he was walking around with tons of extra brain power that he
didn't know how to activate or use.

The Forest of Peldain, on the other hand, lost my interest soon into
the book.  Basic set-up: an empire rules the whole of a collection
of islands except for Peldain.  Peldain is thought to be solid
forest, and *nasty* forest at that (along the lines of Harry
Harrison's Deathworld).  Then someone is found on the shores of
Peldain, claiming that he is from a superior culture that lives in
the interior of the island, so an expeditionary force from the
empire is sent to find the culture (and maybe conquer it).

According to the cover blurbs of the books, Bayley is relatively
popular in Britain but has yet to crack the North American market.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboards
Date: 22 Apr 86 20:10:14 GMT

kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes:
>I remember a book called "The Brass Dragon" (I think) in which one
>of the humanoid aliens says to the primitive Terran "Yes, we use
>sliderules too -- of course they're much more powerful than yours."

You have a good memory.  The book is indeed _The Brass Dragon_; it
is an early effort by Marion Zimmer Bradley, and is not bad for a
rather typical SF-adventure-story.

The actual quote is more reasonable, however:

   Varzil also had a slide rule, and when I expressed surprise, he
   told me that it was a simpler form of one known in the Galatic
   civilization; the principle was the same, but the Earth one was
   just handier to carry in a pocket.

(p. 183, Ace paperback edition; no printing date on the copyright
page, but from the price I would guess I bought it in 1978 or 1979.)

Those of you who think of slide rules as `primitive' should consider
also this: The batteries in a slide rule never wear out.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 23 Apr 86 23:56:48 GMT

> Another good group of stories to read are some about "Gallagher
> Plus".  I don't remember the author or the titles (sorry), but
> I've seen about five of these stories in OLD collections (1950's
> perhaps).  They're about a guy who, normally, is pretty normal.
> When he gets drunk, though, a sort of "second mind" cuts in, which
> ends up getting him into trouble all around. . . .  They're fun.

These are by Henry Kuttner, another good source of funny stories.
Five of them (The Proud Robot, Gallagher Plus, The World is Mine, Ex
Machina, and Time Locker) can be found in a collection entitled
"Robots Have No Tails"

------------------------------

From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: R.A. MacAvoy
Date: 23 Apr 86 03:28:40 GMT

Please send all answers to ME, and I will summerize to the net.

In the bookstore the other day I saw about three or four other books
by MacAvoy, (yes, I have been hiding myself in my room studying,
working and being generally boring for the past few years ... :) And
I have read her _Tea_with_the_Black_Dragon_ and was really impressed
by the story; but the subjects that she tackles in the other books
make me a little wary of just buying the things.  So what do you
think of her other works?

Thanks in advance.

Liralen Li
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: McKiernan, Tolkien
Date: 24 Apr 86 00:23:43 GMT

>>The rumor I heard about McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy is that it
>>was suppose to be a sequal to The Lord of The Rings
>
>As I heard it---and this is only a two-person indirection chain so
>is more likely to be accurrate---the Iron Tower trilogy was written
>as background information to the original sequel, wherein the
>Dwarves attempt to retake Moria.  It should be interesting!  Now if
>only it will be printed....

Why don't we stop publishing rumors, and ask the author?  He
occasionally reads this newsletter, and even submits to it
sometimes!  The following is an extract from mail I received which I
hope he won't mind me publishing:

>As for why I wrote it: I always wanted to read another Hobbit
>story, but Tolkien died...

This does not say anything about the storyline, but the impression I
got from reading the books (which I would strongly recommend) was
that they were not so much set in the identical Middle Earth mythos
as set in a very similar mythos in the same way that there are
parallels between Greek and Roman mythology (or any other
mythologies you care to mention - do you know how many ethnic
backgrounds contain a legend analogous to Noahs Ark ?).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 86 20:33 PST
From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, David D
From: <zaphod%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Eternal Champion

A while ago, somebody mentioned a series of books written by Michael
Moorcock based on his "Eternal Champion" concept.  Having just
finished the Elric Saga, I would be very interested if someone would
post a list of the books that make up the series...

Thanks...
Dave Brown
CSNet: zaphod%wwu.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors.
Date: 22 Apr 86 15:12:35 GMT

I don't know about Bayley, but Hilbert Schenck's stories continue to
appear in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction every so
often.  I think I've seen his stuff on occasion in one of the other
mags as well.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: bunny!rer0@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Reinke)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, translation
Date: 24 Apr 86 14:50:33 GMT

> This was taken to mean "Say the password to open the door". The
> correct interpretation should have been
>
> "Say `friend', and enter"

One thing that has always confused me about this scene is Gandalf's
reaction once he realizes the correct translation.  He says
something to the effect of "Pippin, of all people, was on the right
track" to the actual meaning of the inscription.  I can't remember
anything Pippin (or maybe it was Meriadoc) said that had anything to
do with the inscription, much less with its translation. Any ideas?

Bob Reinke
GTE Laboratories
Waltham, MA
CSNet:  rer0@gte-labs
UUCP :  ...seismo!harvard!bunny!rer0

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Moria Gate inscription's meaning
Date: 24 Apr 86 02:09:33 GMT

From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
>Since we're on the subject of Tolkien did anyone notice the LOTR
>scene where Gandalf and company are about to enter through the
>mountains of Moria.  They come to a door set into the mountain with
>elfish script adorning it.  The script translated says in effect
>"Say the elfish word for friend, mellon, to enter".  Gandalf was
>hard pressed to discover this fact and there were

Language drift.  The ``modern'' meaning of the inscription was

       Speak, friend, and enter.

But to the fellows who wrote the inscription, the language was
slightly different; *they* wrote (in their older Elvish dialect)

       Say ``friend'' and enter.

If you disbelieve, read some books from the 1800's.  I noted one of
these in WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE (by Wylie and Balmer).  English has
drifted a bit since then; why couldn't Elvish have done so in a much
longer time, given that language is ``alive'' and adapts to the
changing world?  (The Moria Gate inscription is OLD, folks.)

Gandalf even *says* this, if I remember correctly.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark )
Subject: Re: The Peace War
Date: 23 Apr 86 23:42:33 GMT

> From: Mike.Blackwell@ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU
> Yeah, I had a similar idea. How about protecting crucial
> installations by building them out of concrete with zillions of
> tiny baubles mixed in?

Wouldn't work.  The surface of the bobbles are just about
frictionless.  There would be nothing for the concrete to "stick"
to, meaning that the bobbles would provide essentially no structural
support.  The bobbles are incompressible as well, which means they
couldn't absorb any of the forces acting through the concrete
through deformation.  It also seems to me that the compressive
fields set up in the concrete at surfaces of the bobbles (tangent to
the force placed on them) should cause problems, but concrete is
amazingly strong in compression.  In short, what you would have
would be stronger than honeycombed concrete (and have the same mass)
but not nearly as effective as plain old solid concrete.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 06:55 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Zahn biblio

I forgot to quote my source in the file so attribute this to the
CONTRAPTION flyer April 18th, SouthField Michigan. It was provided
by author so it should be current.

                     BIBLIOGRAPGHY OF TIM ZAHN
                           SHORT STORIES

  Ernie                      Analog,9/79
* The Dreamsender               "    7/80
  A Lingering Death             "   12/80
* The Challenge              The Space Gamer, 12/80
* The Energy Crisis of 2215  Amazing,3/81
  Hollow Victory             Analog,3/81
  Red THoughts at Morning       "   4/81
  Fantasy World              The Space Gamer,5/81
  The Price of Survival      Analog, 6/81
* The Giftie Gie Us             "    7/81
  The Sword's Man            The Space Gamer,9/81
  Loop Hole                   Analog,9/81
  Raison D'Etre                  "   10/81
* Job Inaction                   "   11/81
  Houseguest                   F & SF 1/82
  When Johnny comes marching home   Analog,1/82
  Symmkyn's Edge               The Space Gamer,2/82
  Origin                       IA's SFM,2/82
  Final Solution               Analog,3/82
  Pawn's Gambit                  "     "
  Unitive factor                 "     5/82
  Between a Rock and a High Place  "   7/82
  The Peaceful Man             F & SF  9/82
* Dragon Pax                   Rigel, Fall '82
  Dark Thoughts at Noon        Analog,12/82
* The Shadows of Evening       F & SF,3/83
* The final Report on the Lifeline Experiment   Analog,5/83
  The Damocles Mission         Ares,Winter'83
  Warlord                      Analog,7/83
  Expanded Charter               "    9/83
  Curtain Call                 Rigel, summer '83
* The Cassandra                Analog,11/83
* Cascade Point                  "    12/83
  Bette Noire                    "    3/84
* Teamwork                       "    4/84
  Vampire Trap                 The Fantasy Gamer #4,2/84
* Return to the Fold           Analog,9/84
  Cordon Sanitaire             Alien Stars, Baen Books 1/85
  Music Hath Charms            Analog,4/85
 +The Evidence of Things Not Seen   Analog 4/86
 +Not Always to the Strong          CASCADE POINT & OTHER STORIES

                     NOVELS
  THE BLACKCOLLAR            DAW Books, July '83
  A COMING OF AGE            Bluejay Books, Feb. '85
  COBRA                      Baen Books, Feb '86
  SPINNERET                  Bluejay Books,Nov. '85
  COBRA STRIKE               Baen Books, Feb '86
  The Talisman                       MAGIC IN ITHKAR, Volume 4
 +BLACKCOLLAR:THE BACKLASH MISSION   DAW Books
 +COBRA III(working title)           Baen  Books

  * to be included in CASCADE POINT AND OTHER STORIES, Blue Jay
    Books, March '86
  + sold but not yet Published (possibly On Shelf)

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john)
Subject: Re: Re: The giant flying telephone switc
Date: 23 Apr 86 16:19:00 GMT

>I seem to recall extensive use of slide rules in James Blish's
>"Cities In Flight" series, despite The City Fathers being very
>large and intelligent computers.

Maybe it was because the city fathers were large intelligent
computers that they prevented anyone from having anything more
powerful than a slip stick.

Does anyone know of any early SF references that describe modern
calculators?  The earliest that I have found was Hari Seldons use of
one in Foundation. I would like to know if there are any earlier
references.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Parallel-universe travel stories
Date: 24 Apr 86 02:01:27 GMT

>The Coming of the Quantum Cats
>Frederic Pohl / Bantam Spectra / May 1986
>
> My recommendation: don't buy it, but if you do, read it only if
> you are bored.  If you want to read interesting stories about
> parallel universes, I suggest you look elsewhere.

I happened to like MAN PLUS.

I've read NOtB and started on Quantum Cats (--stopped dead.); the
ONLY parallel-universe stories I felt were worth anything were some
short stories whose names I don't remember (RAM didn't refresh right
:-): one by Spider Robinson and anthologized most recently in his
MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS, and most (but not all) of the stories in
Niven's THE FLIGHT OF THE HORSE.  And neither tried to do what NOtB
and QC try to do.

I suspect that parallel-universe travel stories are just plain too
complicated to be told, unless the author concentrates on one small
aspect only of it.  (I've had some thoughts on a ``sequel'' to
Robinson's story; it would concentrate not on parallel-universe
travel but on what I think was happening in his story.  Now if only
I could write worth a d*mn...)

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 86 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #90
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Apr 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:

       Books - Asprin & Bayley & Brust & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
               Leiber & Schenck (2 msgs) & Tolkien (4 msgs) &
               Trout & Funny SF (2 msgs),
       Films - Legend (2 msgs) & The Foundation Trilogy,
       Miscellaneous - Copyrigths

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lmi-angel!jmturn@caip.rutgers.edu (James Turner)
Subject: Re: Myth Books (Asprin)
Date: 24 Apr 86 17:29:34 GMT

In the latest Locus, it is reported that Asprin has signed a
contract to write 6 more Myth books, starting with "Myth, Inc Link".

James
Helping Computers With Speech Impediments
LISP Machine, Inc.
{harvard|cca|mit-eddie}!lmi-angel!jmturn
NOTE: I am *not* the James Turner at Imagen

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors.
Date: 24 Apr 86 15:40:09 GMT

   Bayley has also written:
        ANNIHILATION FACTOR (half of Ace Double 33710)
        COLLISION COURSE
        FALL OF CHRONOPOLIS
        FOREST OF PELDAIN
        GARMENTS OF CAEAN
        GRAND WHEEL
        PILLARS OF ETERNITY
        STAR VIRUS (half of Ace Double 78400)
        ZEN GUN
(Several of these were DAW books.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: JHEREG
Date: 24 Apr 86 02:43:12 GMT

From: pnet01!bnw <Bruce.N.Wheelock%cod@nosc.ARPA>
>>>A writer (name forgotten) wrote (of S. Brust's _Jhereg_):
>>From reading the above, one would think (1) that the jhereg plays
>> a major role in the book, and (2) that the jhereg is probably an
>> interesting alien. Both assumptions are false.
>
> Number 1 is not false.  The conclusion betrays a very superficial
> reading of the book.  I've not re-read _Jhereg_ in weeks, but I
> recall that Loiosh is Vlad's advisor throughout the novel, that he
> was of vital import- ance in the conducting of a witchcraft spell,
> saved Vlad's life once, pre- vented the Dragon-Jhereg war from
> being triggered, and served Vlad as scout, lookout, and messenger.

Who said the title was talking about the *animal*?  Consider that
the second book is YENDI, in which a Dragaeran of the same House
figures prominently.

I took the name to refer to the most important Dargaeran House in
the book: in the case of JHEREG, the House Jhereg was on the verge
of ruin, and YENDI was (as I mentioned above) largely about a member
of House Yendi.  I expect to learn about the House Teckla (besides
the ``peasants'' we've heard about so far -- btw, anyone else get
the idea that Prince Miklos in BROKEDOWN PALACE was a peasant of the
House Teckla during his stay in ``Faerie''?  ``Frightened teckla
hides in grass'' is obviously relative) in the next book, TECKLA.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 11:03:49 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Window in the Sky

Actually, it was called Tunnel in the Sky, and Heinlein DID write
it. You might want to look up Farmer in the Sky, too. It is on about
the same level, and I think I liked it a bit better.

------------------------------

From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 23 Apr 86 21:05:47 GMT

I had heard about this series of books, and am interested in reading
them, but I haven't been able to find out what the complete series
is.  Could someone on the net please list what books are in this
series, and in what order they are in? E.g. Methuselah's Children,
Time Enough for Love.

Also, I read the Number of the Beast recently, and Lazarus Long from
the Future History series shows up. Was this book intended to be
part of the series? Where in the order of the books from the series
does this one appear?

As usual, thanks in advance.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp
nathan@mit-xx.arpa

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Fritz Leiber
Date: 25 Apr 86 22:03:22 GMT

Is Fritz Leiber still alive? Are there any more Fahred and the Grey
Mouser stories planned to be published in book form?

steve anich

------------------------------

From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors. (Hilbert Schenk)
Date: 25 Apr 86 21:47:38 GMT

Hilbert Schenk has published one novel, _At the Eye of the Ocean_,
which is only very marginally science fiction.  It follows the life
of one man born in the early 1800's as he grows to adulthood in pre-
civil war New England, and on through several key events in his life
and the lives of his wife and several descendants -- all tied
intimately to the ocean.  The SF (or fantasy) aspect is that he has
a quasi-mystical link to the ocean -- he can "read" wind and wave
impossibly well, and at a (very) few crucial moments the ocean seems
to respond to him.  The main concern of the book is his development,
and his slow understanding of this gift.  Not the easiest reading,
but very rich and polished.  Incidentally "Wave Rider" is one of my
favorite stories:

   Out where the ocean is empty and wild
   And the satellites watch from the sky
   There's a few who remember her name and her run
   When the wind-driven waves run high.

Jordin Kare

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: One-shot (?) authors.
Date: 24 Apr 86 15:40:09 GMT

   Schenck also wrote AT THE EYE OF THE OCEAN, "The Geometry of
Narrative" (ANALOG August 1983), which was nominated for a Hugo, and
"The Silicon Muse" (ANALOG September 1984), also nominated for a
Hugo.  he's probably written other short fiction, but I don't have
my reference works handy.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

From: booter@lll-crg.ARpA (Elaine Richards)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 26 Apr 86 01:42:43 GMT

My impression is that Gandalf is more related to the Elven people
than the humans.

Regarding the trilogy itself, it will bear a resemblance to Star
Wars or any other epic you may see in the Western World. I
investigated the sources of Tolkien's inspiration in fairly good
detail. He was a professor of Old and Middle English. I have a BA in
Medieval Studies (I can read Chaucer in the original).

THe elves are a derivation of the Irish legend about the Tuatha De
Danaan.  They were a tribe of beautiful and graceful people who
emigrated from the general area of the Graeco-Roman Empires to
Ireland (the Islands of the Uttermost West). They are mentioned in
(I believe) Homers' works. They are the Kings and the Shee folk(!)
of Ireland (depending on the teller).

Frodo was a Norse warlord. In some versions of his epic, he is
referred to as Frodi or Frodhi.

The rings and dwarves are, of course, from the Wagnerian epics.
These sprang from German folktales and legends. Brunhilde, the brave
warrior maiden is a precursor of Eowyn of the Rohan.

I have more data lying around the house, but Medievalism can get
pretty dry if you don't keep reading Boccacio and Chaucer over and
over.

E

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 10:48:45 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Moria

If I remember correctly, this particular gate to Moria bordered on a
famous region of Middle-Earth, Eregion, which was inhabited by the
Elvensmiths, who later made the Rings of Power.

------------------------------

From: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu (Bhaskar)
Subject: Gandalf
Date: 25 Apr 86 03:20:37 GMT

I am now reading Tolkien's "The Hobbits", having finished with the
Trilogy.  I had been puzzled by something when I was well into "The
Return of the King", but I thought that "The Hobbits" would soon
dispel my problem.  Now, I am well into this book, and it does not
appear that I will find what I sought. I am posting this in the hope
that somebody has read the books more carefully than I have, and
that he (or she) will know the answer.

My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life
are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into which
category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ?

I found only very indirect clues. A suggestive one is that on
several occassions the hobbits were given ponies, but Gandalf got a
horse. We can also rule out the possibility of Gandalf being an elf,
dwarf or goblin on a number of grounds. That leaves man, hobbit or
Wizard as the most likely contenders.

If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where
it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy all
over again.

Thanks in advance.

P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ?
True, one is set in the past, the other in the future and the Ring
and the Force have almost opposite "properties". But in both cases
we have a protagonist thrust, willy-nilly into a fine imbroglio.
Gandalf - Kenobi , Saruman - Darth Vader , Sauron - Palpatine ,
Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. When I
mentioned this to my room-mate, he disagreed strongly. Is my vision
distorted ?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 12:05:56 est
From: UFFNER <tom%vax1.acs.udel.edu@Louie.UDEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Inscription on the Gates of Moria

   The inscription was in Elvish because the doors of the West Gate
were designed by Celembrimbor along with a dwarven smith and were
meant to symbolize peace and friendship between the two races.
(Remarkably enough, I think the doors were made after the the little
altercation over the Necklace) But races. (Remarkably enough, I
think the doors were made after the anyway, the quote was in Elvish
because most of the people who used the Westgate were elves.

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Who is Kilgore Trout ?
Date: 23 Apr 86 23:46:22 GMT

> No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without mention
> of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout!

I knew Kilgore Trout was a Vonnegut character, but I was under the
impression that "Venus on the Half-Shell" (supposedly written by
Kilgore Trout) was, in fact, written by somebody completely
different (not Vonnegut). Can anybody out there set me straight on
this detail ?

------------------------------

From: uokvax!cdrigney@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 23 Apr 86 01:13:00 GMT

Another funny book set at a sf convention is _Murdercon_, by Richard
Purtill.  It opens with:

"As I came in the door, two Darth Vaders crossed the lobby, one on
either side of a girl in a bright red and yellow beanie topped by a
slowly revolving propeller, worn over her Princess Leia hairdo.  She
wore a dark blue caftan and a surprisingly happy expression
considering the company she was keeping."

How can you go wrong?

Carl Rigney
USENET: {ihnp4,allegra!cbosgd}!okstate!uokvax!cdrigney

------------------------------

From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 25 Apr 86 03:54:58 GMT

I don't think anyone has mentioned *The Princess Bride* by William
Golding.  Takes everything you ever saw in a fairy tale and turns it
upside down.  *Highly* recommended.

Soren Petersen

------------------------------

From: puff!lishka@caip.rutgers.edu (Christopher Lishka)
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 25 Apr 86 19:56:36 GMT

I am posting this as a general response to all reviews that can the
plot.

Didn't any of you catch an article (written by someone else) that
talked about how much the film was cut up for U.S. release?
Apparently (and this info is from that article) the uncut _Legend_
was released in Europe in '84.  Yeah, quite some time ago.  The U.S.
studio got a hold on it but decided that it wasn't aimed at the
right crowd (yeah, the 12-20 teenage group).  So they decided to cut
it.  From what the author of the previous article said, the cut
material was stuff that would appeal mostly to older audiences and
was not sex and gore.  In otherwords, the U.S. studio *ssh*les (and
I really hope they are reading this article) took it upon themselves
to edit the plot so that it would appeal to a "younger" crowd (I am
of that age, and the plot did NOT appeal to me!).  So before you can
all the inconsitencies in the plot, please realize that what you are
seeing is a very hacked up film.  Just like _Brazil_.  As someone
wrote and told me, just like _Buckaroo_Banzai_.  It seems that the
studio f*cks (and I am using these kind words 'cause I'm mad...
hope they're still reading!) think that what a movie is is not what
the public wants to see.  (Incidentally, _Brazil_ was not ever going
to be released in the U.S.A. until Terry Gillam showed it to some
L.A critics who thought it so good [and this was the cut version]
that they gave it the L.A. critics award for best movie of the year
without the movie ever having been released.  Naturally the studio
had to release it rather than being accused of holding back a
wonderful new film).

Anyway, I think the problem here is not in the film, it's in the
version.  Most of us feel that Ridley Scott is a good director (or
maybe just some of us) and has made two previous great films:
_Alien_ and _Blade_Runner_.  Now, it is not everyday that someone
comes out with a science fiction film with some actual *meat* behind
all the effects, which _Blade_Runner_ had.  This is why I think that
_Legend_ is probably a good movie.  Ridley Scott just isn't that
sloppy!

Death to any studio exec who cuts a film again!

Chri Lishka
U.W. Madison

p.s.  another small studio-cutting bit of trivia: in the film
_Psycho_ by Alfred Hitchcock, Janet Leigh was originally shown in
the shower with her breasts bare.  It seems that the studio did not
like it so they edited a black bar over her nude bosom and destroyed
the originals.  Just another example of studio f*cks not letting a
good director do his work (oh, say, just like the original release
of Akira Kurosawa's _The_Seven_Samuria_!)

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john jacobsen)
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 26 Apr 86 00:16:24 GMT

> .......So before you can all the inconsitencies in the plot,
> please realize that what you are seeing is a very hacked up film.
> Just like _Brazil_.  As someone wrote and told me, just like
> _Buckaroo_Banzai_.

Actually, I saw _Brazil_ in Europe about a year ago, and the version
they showed in Madison wasn't really 'hacked up'.  Some tidbits were
removed, (towards the end... e-mail me for when... actually I'm not
quite sure anymore) mostly to make it a little shorter (it's a
pretty long film).  So I wouldn't exactly call _Brazil_ hacked up,
just a little spliced.  Sorry, Chri.

John E. Jacobsen
UWisconsin-Madison
Academic Comp. Ctr.

------------------------------

From: brueer!gary@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Saker)
Subject: Isaac Asimov - FILM Foundation Trilogy ?
Date: 24 Apr 86 17:00:57 GMT

Could anyone confirm the rumour that Isaac Asimov's Foundation
Trilogy is being made into a film, if this is the case could I have
some information on it.

i.e U.K. release date, what actors and actresses star in the film
etc.

I haven't seen any publicity or details just a lot of rumours !

Can anyone help ?

Cheers
Gary Saker (Brunel University)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 86 11:08:18 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re:Copyrighted material

Fan art? Sure, I've seen a lot of good Star Trek art, including a
very accurate picture of a Klingon warship. However, I think an
author should ask permission before swiping someone else's
characters.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 86 0849-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #91
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:

               Books - Chalker & Wilson & Reviewing &
                       Funny SF & Hugo Nominations,
               Films - Legend (2 msgs) & Editing Films,
               Television - Tripods,
               Miscellaneous - Quote Source (2 msgs) &
                       Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 25 Apr 86 07:02:16 GMT

Spoiler warning, if you believe that there is anything to be spoiled
in any Jack Chalker novel.

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>johnf@apollo.uucp (John Francis) writes:
>>   Oh and a recent one by Jack Chalker called something like
>>   "And the devil....". I don't rember the title off hand but
>>   it had Asmodeus as a drunk and had Communist Gnomes.
>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>That was the second book of the "Dancing Gods" series, "Demons of
>the Dancing Gods", by Jack Chalker.

That may well be, but the commie gnomes were first introduced in the
book "and the Devil will drag you under" in the fifth universe, the
one which was a magic-oriented alternative of Earth.  The gnomes had
surrounded and were burning a house filled with Hippie-oids, who had
violated interracial treaties by driving a steel wellshaft down into
gnomish territory killing one of the gnomes ....

They weren't particularly funny tho.  On the other hand, the
communist dragon Falameezar in Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger"
series was pretty amusing, especially if you've seen the mindless
evangelistic rant of a newly converted marxist.  (Or had one for a
roomie.)

Hutch

------------------------------

From: gladys!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White)
Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson
Date: 26 Apr 86 04:46:54 GMT

> From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech)
>       Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have
> found only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would
> like more if they exist.

He has also written _Wheels Within Wheels_, which is a prequel to
_Healer_.  It gives the background for the political climate,
especially the Restructurist movement and why it split off from the
Federation.

Bob White
5123 Ramillie Run
Winston-Salem, NC  27106
ihnp4!burl!gladys!bob

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: STOP!  ENOUGH!
Date: 23 Apr 86 14:00:50 GMT

> It is excruciatingly unenlightening to read everyone's all time
> favorite list of books ... IF all you are going to do is list
> their titles.  If you must broadcast your preferences to the
> world, please try to shed a little more light on your opinions.
> Otherwise, if I simply want to look at titles, I can always go to
> the bookstore!

I don't know.  Generally I feel that no matter how much information
is provided in a review it always ends up boiling down to "you like
it or you don't".  More important is how similar the tastes of a
reviewer are to your own.  People listing titles provides in minimal
information books they considered exceptional.  If you haven't heard
of the book it gives you something to look for.  If you already know
you like some of the books they listed you might very well like ones
they listed you haven't read.  If they list books that in general
left you cold then you probably shouldn't waste your time bothering
with the books on the list you haven't read.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Funny (?) SF
Date: 25 Apr 86 00:04:03 GMT

If you like funny SF on a regular basis, ANALOG usually comes
through most every month.  The mid-December, 1984, issue carried
nothing but spoofs.  I especially enjoyed the listing of SF cons
that had Tucker as MC, every one.

Mike Banks had a funny unsigned page advertising a new game, and
yours truly had a short piece on micro-black holes.  "Didactics of
Mystique" by Flash Richardson was quite good.

Best recommendation for humor:  Bob Asprin's MYTH books.

arlan

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: **HUGO NOMINATIONS** (Unofficial)
Date: 24 Apr 86 14:00:44 GMT

Here are the (unofficial) Hugo nominations for 1986, courtesy of
LAN'S LANTERN (and yes, joan hanke-woods is all lower-case):

NOVEL
Greg Bear--BLOOD MUSIC
David Brin--THE POSTMAN
C. J. Cherryh--CUCKOO'S EGG
Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle--FOOTFALL
Orson Scott Card--ENDER'S GAME

NOVELLA
C. J. Cherryh--"Scapegoat" (ALIEN STARS, ed. by Betsy Mitchell, Baen
   Books)
Kim Stanley Robinson--"Green Mars" (IASFM Sep 85)
Robert Silverberg--"Sailing to Byzantium" (IASFM Feb 85)
James Tiptree, Jr.--"The Only Neat Thing To Do" (F&SF Oct 85)
Roger Zelazny--"24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" (IASFM Jul 85)

NOVELETTE
Michael Bishop--""A Gift from the Graylanders" (IASFM Sep 85)
Orson Scott Card--"The Fringe" (F&SF Oct 85)
Harlan Ellison--"Paladin of the Lost Hour" (TWILIGHT ZONE Dec 85)
William Gibson and Michael Swanwick--"Dogfight" (OMNI Jul 85)
George R. R. Martin--"Portraits of His Children" (IASFM Nov 85)

SHORT STORY
John Crowley--"Snow" (OMNI Nov 85)
Frederik Pohl--"Fermi and Frost" (IASFM Jan 85)
Bruce Sterling--"Dinner in Audoghast" (IASFM May 85)
Howard Waldroop--"Flying Saucer Rock & Roll" (OMNI Jan 85)
William F. Wu--"Hong's Bluff" (OMNI Mar 85)

NON-FICTION
Brian Aldiss--THE PALE SHADOW OF SCIENCE
Algis Budrys--BENCHMARKS: GALAXY BOOKSHELF
Perry Chapdelaine--JOHN W. CAMPBELL LETTERS, Vol. I
Harlan Ellison--AN EDGE IN MY VOICE
Tom Weller--SCIENCE MADE STUPID
Douglas E. Winter--FACES OF FEAR: ENCOUNTERS WITH CREATORS OF MODERN
   HORROR

DRAMATIC PRESENTATION
BACK TO THE FUTURE
BRAZIL
COCOON
ENEMY MINE
LADYHAWKE

PRO EDITOR
Terry Carr
Judy-Lynn Del Rey
Ed Ferman
Shawna McCarthy
Stanley Schmidt

PRO ARTIST
Frank Kelly Freas
Dom Maitz
Rowena Morrell
Barclay Shaw
Michael Whelan

FAN ARTIST
Brad Foster
Steve Fox
joan hanke-woods
Bill Rotsler
Stu Shiffman

SEMI-PRO ZINE
FANTASY REVIEW
INTERZONE
LOCUS
SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE
SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW

FANZINE
ANVIL (Charlotte Proctor)
GREATER COLUMBIA FANTASY COSTUMERS GUILD NEWSLETTER (Bobby Gear)
HOLIER THAN THOU (Robbi and Marty Cantor)
LAN'S LANTERN (George "Lan" Laskowski)
UNIVERSAL TRANSLATOR (Susan Bridges) (not yet confirmed that 4
   issues have been published)

FAN WRITER
Richard Geis
Mike Glyer
Arthur Hlavaty
Dave Langford
Patrick Neilson-Hayden
Don D'Ammassa

JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD
Karen Joy Fowler
Guy Gavriel Kay
Carl Sagan
Melissa Scott
Tad Williams
David Zindell

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 86 14:39:16 EST
From: KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Legend

I've waited over a year for Legend to be released in this country and
I must say that I'm a little disappointed with it.  It's a good
movie, good enough anyways.  It probably will not be a blockbuster
though.  The makeup was excellent and the setting and cinematography
was outstanding but the pacing is too slow and the characters are
unbelievable.  The only character you feel you get to know is Tim
Curry who plays the bad guy.  Perhaps it's because they (the movie
people) cut out over 30 minutes of the film when they brought it
over from Europe.  The origional soundtrack was by Jerry Goldsmith
(I believe) but was replaced in the American version by Tangerine
Dream.

I find all this to be a bit upsetting and that may alter my view of
the movie but I still feel that it is a movie worth spending 2 or
maybe 3 dollars for.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: LEGEND
Date: 24 Apr 86 18:08:08 GMT

                               LEGEND
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Ridley Scott does a live-action fairy
     tale that visually matches the illustrations in classic books
     of fairy tales.  The pacing occasionally flags but visually
     the film is all you expect from the man who made BLADERUNNER.
     Tim Curry as the Prince of Darkness in make-up by Rob Bottin
     is particularly effective.

     There is a style of traditional British fantasy--one I don't
general care for--with the wood folk.  There are faerie and wood
sprites, unicorns and goblins.  Their stories are recounted in the
Blue Fairy Book OR THE CRIMSON FAIRY BOOK or one of those.  This
kind of fantasy rarely makes it into live-action except perhaps in
an occasional film of MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM.  More often this
faerie world shows up in animated film for the obvious reason that
it is a lot easier to put into film in animation.  LEGEND is the
first film to create the enchanted faerie world in live- action.

     Lili is a princess, but she loves to run through an enchanted
forest where she meets her platonic love, Jack, a boy of the forest.
Jack knows the secrets of the forest and takes Lili to see the last
two unicorns.  Lili cannot resist petting the unicorns and in doing
so makes them vulnerable to the Prince of Darkness.  These unicorns,
it seems, were all that kept the world out of eternal darkness and
unending winter.  Jack must go off in search of the horn of the
slain unicorn.  It is a common fairy story and is often less than
enthralling.

     Scott's sets in LEGEND are almost as detailed as his sets were
for BLADERUNNER, though in most cases the sets are somewhat easier
to create here.  If anything the sets are over-cluttered with
fantasy touches.  Every scene looks like it could be a illustration
from a book of fairy tales, with one exception.  Scott's unicorns
are horses with horns.  Scott has either given in to the popular
misconception of bad modern fantasy artists or has never bothered to
look up "unicorn" in the dictionary.  (A unicorn is supposed to have
the tail of a lion and the hindquarters of a stag.)

     The make-up effects were done by Rob Bottin, who did an
excellent job with the werewolves in THE HOWLING.  Some of the
make-up effects work well in LEGEND, particularly in the make-up for
some of the elves and in most scenes of the Prince of Darkness.
However, our first scene of the Prince of Darkness has him in the
dark but painted with glowing black-light paint and that effect is
most unconvincing, as are some of the witch make-up jobs early in
the film.

     LEGEND has been embroiled in problems over its release.  It was
intended for 1985 release, but seemingly ran into problems, was
re-edited and released in two versions.  In Britain it had a score
by Jerry Goldsmith and was a half an hour longer than the American
version with a score by Tangerine Dream.  Both film scores were
played on a local radio station.  The Goldsmith score was lighter
and more dream-like while the Tangerine Dream score had more power
and better built a dark mood for the scenes of the Prince of
Darkness.

     LEGEND comes as close as I have seen to being a live-action
version of a Disney cartoon.  At times its pacing flags but it is
always a spectacle for the eye, much as a Disney cartoon.  It rates
a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: hitchens@uo.utexas.edu (Ron Hitchens, Sun Wiz)
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 26 Apr 86 10:41:13 GMT

> lishka@puff.UUCP (Christopher Lishka) says:
> p.s.  another small studio-cutting bit of trivia: in the film
> _Psycho_ by Alfred Hitchcock, Janet Leigh was originally shown in
> the shower with her breasts bare.  It seems that the studio did
> not like it so they edited a black bar over her nude bosom and
> destroyed the originals.  Just another example of studio f*cks not
> letting a good director do his work (oh, say, just like the
> original release of Akira Kurosawa's _The_Seven_Samuria_!)

  I don't think so.  I saw Janet Leigh on Larry King (interview show
on CNN) recently and she said she was never photographed in the nude
at all for Psycho.  She wore a body stocking (made from the material
used for sexy stage costumes, which seems to be see-through but
isn't).  I think this is just a bit of folklore, a testament to the
masterful editing of that scene.  You don't see nearly as much as
you think you do.

  I too wish that studios would pay a little less attention to
demographics and place a little more faith in the artists making the
films, especially those with proven track records like Gilliam and
Scott.  I don't see much hope for improvement, not so long as the
studios control finances: He who has the gold makes the rules.
Louis B. Meyer is gone, the studios are now being run by a bunch of
pinstripe geeks with IBM PC's and VisiCalc.

Ron Hitchens            U. of Texas @ Austin Computer Science
hitchens@ut-sally.UUCP
hitchens@uo.cs.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 86 14:39:16 EST
From: KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Tripods

The third season of Tripods will NOT be made.  This is what the BBC
has announced lately.  I am not sure but I believe it is Michael
Grade who decided not to produce the third season.  Maybe it will be
picked up by someone else?

Wishful thinking.

------------------------------

From: ags@pucc-h (Dave Seaman)
Subject: Re: Quotes
Date: 24 Apr 86 19:49:06 GMT

spencer@usc-oberon.UUCP (Randy Spencer) writes:
>> My roommate and I enjoy driving each other nuts by throwing ST
>> quotes at each other. It's horribly aggravating when you KNOW
>> that you've heard a line, but can't remember the show or the
>> situation. For what it's worth,
>
>   ... many quotes omitted ...
>> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows."

Actually this is from "Arena" when Spock observes that Kirk is
gathering the raw materials needed to manufacture gunpowder.

I recently saw a story on the BBC series "Blake's Seven" in which
Blake and his arch-nemesis, each with a companion, engaged in a
similar test of survival.  The episode was titled "Duel".

Both the Star Trek and Blake's Seven stories were apparently
inspired by the short story "Arena" by Frederick Brown, first
published in 1944, in which the alien was a red globe with
retractable tentacles and strong telepathic powers.  This story was
also published in a collection known as the "Science Fiction Hall of
Fame."  I don't remember the publisher but I can look it up if
anyone is interested.

Dave Seaman
pur-ee!pucc-h!ags

------------------------------

From: ecn-aa!morrism@caip.rutgers.edu (The Music Man)
Subject: Re: Quotes
Date: 24 Apr 86 23:10:38 GMT

ags@pucc-h.UUCP (Dave Seaman) writes:
>spencer@usc-oberon.UUCP (Randy Spencer) writes:
>> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows."
>
>Actually this is from "Arena" when Spock observes that Kirk is
>gathering the raw materials needed to manufacture gunpowder.

  Yes, and No. I hate to do this,but this was also in another story
also.  I can not remember the title of it, but I remember Bones got
an overdose of some drug. It drove him mad, he went through a time
portal and after recovering he changed history so that Germany won
WWII.
        I also recall Spock & The Captain went back to stop him.
Kirk fell in love with the key factor to history (I.E. A role played
by Joan Collins.) and stopped Bones from saving her life from a car
accident. The Doctor madly said:

   "I could have saved her life Jim! Do you know what you've
    Done???!!!!!"

   Then came Spock's line. To which this long article is about.

Mitchell J. Morrison
UUCP: {decvax, ihnp4, seismo, ucbvax}!pur-ee!morrism

------------------------------

From: trwrba!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe)
Subject: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster
Date: 25 Apr 86 00:39:21 GMT

Has anyone out there ever tried to make a Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster?

For those of you who don't know what it is, the Hitchhiker's Guide
to the Galaxy says "that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic
Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of
lemon wrapped round a large gold brick."

Any ideas on how to make one????

Pete olpe
UUCP: {devax|ucbvax|ihnp4}!trwrb!trwrba!pro

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 86 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #92
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Chalker & Crowley &
                       Laumer & Tolkien (3 msgs),
               Television - Buck Rogers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: With a Tangled Skein
Date: 25 Apr 86 13:41:30 GMT

I just finished reading With_A_Tangled_Skein.  My general impression
was that it was somewhat worse than the other two.  As usual, Piers
is lousy at real seeming characters and produces male/female
relationships that are more like fairy tales than real
relationships.  The first couple of chapters were so sickeningly
sweet and stupid that I had trouble keeping from gagging; after I
managed to wade through them it got much better.  His reference to a
certain Senator from Massachusetts as a tongue in check plot segment
was annoying.  Even more annoying was his incorporation into the
plot famous puzzles like the missionaries and the cannibals and the
counterfeit coin.  The female characters in the book are generally
stereotypical; his treatment of the female character is almost as
bad as Heinlen's.  In general, if you are a devoted Anthony fan you
will probably want to read it.  It's probably on a par with some of
the later Xanth books, nothing special but not deadly dull either.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@caip.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Well of Souls by Chalker (Summary of Replies)
Date: 26 Apr 86 19:28:07 GMT

I wrote:
>Please, can anyone give me the name of the author of the 'Well of
>Souls' books.  Also, titles and opinions of them?  Thanks.  If you
>would, send mail to me and I will summarize to the net.

Thanks to all who responded.  Here is the promised summary.

   From: casemo!bill Bill Jensen,

     The Well of Souls books are by Jack Chalker.  In order, they
     are:

     1. Midnight at the Well of Souls  ( stands alone )
     2. Exiles at the Well of Souls ( part 1 of the Wars of the
        Well )
     3. Quest for the Well of Souls ( part 2 of the Wars of the
        Well )
     4. The Return of Nathan Brazil
     5. Twilight at the Well of Souls

    The first book stands alone pretty well, since it was only
    intended to be one book. DelRey asked Jack for sequels since it
    was a very good seller. The next two go together, and so do the
    last two.

    I think that the series as a whole is fun to read, it's
    essentially space opera.  I find most of Jack's stuff to be the
    same sort of thing.  For me as well, part of the fun was seeing
    the names of various Washington area SF fans and writers popping
    up in strange places in the books.  Jack has been a fan a lot
    longer than he's been writing.

  From: Chris Torek <seismo!mimsy.umd.edu!umcp-cs!chris>

    The first book stands very well by itself.  In fact I think the
    series would be stronger without the other two `books' (each
    split into two paperbacks because of their length), but I *do*
    like the ultimate ending.  It is perhaps interesting to note
    that Chalker was unmarried at the time that he wrote _Midnight_,
    and married for at least a year by the time he finished
    _Twilight_.

  From: decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!bu-cs!bucsb!odin

All of them are good, and the conclusion is satisfying.  Hero,
however is not well enough developed as a character, his mystery is
not enough to account for the paucity of data we have on him.
Please note that his other series 'The Four Lords of The Diamond' is
quite good too.

  From: seismo!rochester!ritcv!iav1917 (Alan I. Vymetalik)

     You're gonna get swamped with this one.  I'll help you out a
bit.  First of all, the author is Jack L. Chalker.  Absolutely one
of my all time favorites!  He writes with a clarity and density few
other authors have ever managed.  He also writes A LOT of novels.

     Ok, how about opinions?  Well, I generally do not like to do
that.  Reason: science fiction is one of those personal things.
What's one man's fantasy or space opera is another man's garbage.
However, as far the series goes, in whole it is a great reading
experience leaving a lot of food for thought.  Individually, Vols
1-3 and maybe the last half of Vol 5 are recommended.  The series
opens yet another twist on the old plot "where did we come from and
who the heck is in charge."  That's the underlying feeling but the
novels are the stories of the individual characters and their
adaptation, trials, and triumphs in a place called "The Well World".
As the jacket blurb on "Midnight" says 'Who was Nathan Brazil and
what was he doing on the Well World?  Entered by a thousand
unsuspected gateways - built by a race lost in the clouds of time -
the planet its dwellers called the Well World turned beings of every
kind into something else.  There spacefarer Nathan Brazil found
himself companioned by a batman, an amorous female centaur, and a
mermaid - all once as human as he ... For at the heart of the
bizarre planet lay the goal of every being that had ever lived - and
Nathan Brazil and his comrades were ... lucky? ... enough to find
it!"  A great stage for a story, huh?  The series was awarded the
"Hamilton-Brackett Memorial Award".

    Wow this is getting long.  You may be interested in reading
other novels by Jack Chalker: The best list I've been able to
compile is:

    The Web of the Chozen
    And the Devil Will Drag You Under
    A Jungle of Stars
    Dancers in the Afterglow
    The Saga of the Well World (see above)
    The Four Lords of the Diamond: (science fiction)
       Book 1 - Lilith: A Snake in the Grass
       Book 2 - Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold
       Book 3 - Charon: A Dragon at the Gate
       Book 4 - Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail
    The Dancing Gods (fantasy series)
       Book 1 - The River of the Dancing Gods
       Book 2 - Demons of the Dancing Gods
       Book 3 - Vengence of the Dancing Gods
    The Soul Rider Series: (fantasy/sci-fantasy)
       Book 1 - Spirits of Flux and Anchor
       Book 2 - Empires of Flux and Anchor
       Book 3 - Masters of Flux and Anchor
       Book 4 - The Birth of Flux and Anchor (foundation novel to
          first 3)
    Downtiming the Night Side
    The Identity Matrix
    The Devil's Voyage
    A War of Shadows

     These are not quite in chronological order but it's as complete
list as I know of.  I have personally read all but Soul Rider #4
(just bought it) and The Devil's Voyage (a more mystery/suspense
than sci-fi, I think) and Th Identity Matrix (I'm almost done!).  As
you can see, I happen to like and admire this particular author.  I
hope this helps out.  I figured I'd tack on his book list since
other people will probably just list the Well of Souls series and
there is such a better and larger body of work by this author that
should also be explored.

  From: seismo!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf,  Ralph Schurman

I remember enjoying these books enormously while I was reading them
(in early 1980) and prowling the local bookshops daily in a quasi-
deranged state when I found out that ~RoNB~ wasn't the final volume.

I haven't given them a second reading, partly because of the sagas
length and partly because there is always so much new stuff to get
to (including more Chalker - e.g. the "4 Lords of the Diamond"
series; the "Dancing Gods" series; and the "Soul Rider" series), and
the intervening time has clouded my memory of the plot so I'll just
says that it's wonderfully complicated and throw in some teasers. (I
hate spoilers anyway)

The first book's main character, Nathan Brazil, may or may not be
God.  The second and third book's main character is Mavra Chang - a
technologically augmented special agent. Other major characters
include Obie - a supercomputer, and Dr. Zinder - who learns enough
about the nature of the universe to invent a machine which seriously
threatens its existence.  The fourth and fifth books bring Nathan
and Mavra together to deal with the Wagnerian question of whether or
not the universe should be turned off!

Chalker likes to explore & explode sexual & racial stereotypes by
creating situations where the characters change gender and species.
(Although this seems to be becoming an obsession with him lately -
e.g. _Downtiming the Nightside_) There is a lot of fetishism and
other kinks in the saga which some people may find offensive.

The Well World itself is divided into many hexagonal regions of
widely varying environments, each populated by some sapient species,
and each with its own laws of physics.  There are those people who
can't look at a hex map (not a synonym for core dump in this case)
without thinking - Wargame! - and for them there is a Well of Souls
game. From Mayfair games I think.

If it hasn't been obvious I recommend the saga, and all of Chalker's
work. It's exciting, thought provoking stuff although individual
character development sometimes suffers due to his preferred "cast
of thousands".

Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center
INET: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM
UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio

------------------------------

From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton)
Subject: Re: "Favorite SF" Poll (really John Crowley)
Date: 24 Apr 86 16:21:38 GMT

> alfke@csvax.caltech.edu writes:
>>Hardest to put down: "Little, Big" by John Crowley
>
>    I've been meaning to ask about this book, although it's hardly
> SF.  But since you brought it up...
>    I guess what I really want to know is what you saw in this
> book, and should I read his other book(s), or will I find them
> more of the same?

You should definitely read ENGINE SUMMER.  It qualifies a little
more as "science fiction", and is easier to follow than LITTLE, BIG.
It is "more of the same", but if you had read it first, you might
have found LITTLE a better experience.

What I saw in LITTLE, BIG?  A world more interesting than any I can
hallucinate.  I prefer this dream world to that of Gene Wolfe, if
only because it is more benign. For a John Crowley story perhaps
more to your techno-taste, look for "Snow" in Omni magazine--I think
the November '85 issue.  It has been nominated for a Nebula.  And
what I want to know is what new stuff is coming from Crowley--anyone
have a clue?

Kimiye Tipton
Maitland, FL  USA
USENET: ihnp4!ides!kimi
CORNET:  754-6472  (305-660-6472)

------------------------------

From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Warning: Lark's vomit
Date: 25 Apr 86 07:23:00 GMT



> From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
>> From: stephen@datacube
>> Being a little miffed, I decided to post the following sleazy
>> bit of marketing:
>>
>> I was at my local WaldenBooks today, and saw a new Retief novel,
>> "Retief and the PanGalactic Pageant of Pulchitrude", on the
>> shelf.  After purchasing this novel, I discovered the title
>> referred to a relatively poor short story, and the rest was the
>> novel "Retief's Ransom", ...
>
> I got caught by this one as well.  This is the second time Baen
> has pulled this stunt with a "new" Retief book. ...
>
> In future, I plan to avoid anything published by Baen.

I can't sit by and see a publisher maligned. Laumer's books
(especially the Retief books) have ALWAYS been like this!  Laumer
seems to love re-packaging his stories to fool unwary buyers. Be
alert, but watch for the name "Laumer"; not the publisher "Bean".

Russel Dalenberg

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, Moria West-gate inscription, Legolas
Date: 26 Apr 86 07:56:55 GMT

Oops.  I have no idea why I wrote this:

> Appositives are not much used in written Elvish.

when I really meant that ambiguous phrases, especially those needing
something like the English comma to set them off from surrounding
text, occur rather rarely in most written text, if only because
scribes are careful to avoid them.  That is just what I get for
writing in haste, I suppose.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 27 Apr 86 02:49:02 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP (Bhaskar) writes:
> My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
> anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of
> life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into
> which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ?
>
> I found only very indirect clues. A suggestive one is that on
> several occassions the hobbits were given ponies, but Gandalf got
> a horse. We can also rule out the possibility of Gandalf being an
> elf, dwarf or goblin on a number of grounds. That leaves man,
> hobbit or Wizard as the most likely contenders.
>
> If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where
> it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy
> all over again.

I do not have the books in front of me, so this may not be exact,
but it is either while Gandalf and Pippin were riding to Minas
Tirith or when they got there that Gandalf explained who he was.  He
states (paraphrased) that he is known as Mithrandir in the South,
Gandalf in the North, Tharkun (??) by the Dwarves (although I never
heard any dwarves of Middle-Earth ever call him that), Olorin in the
days when the world was young, and to the East he did not go.  This
suggests that his origins were beyond that of Middle-Earth,
particularly in Aman.  In the Silmarillion, in the Valaquenta
chapter, there is a short paragraph at the end telling about Olorin,
a Maia, who studied long under Nienna and learned patience, after
which he went out from Aman and aided the peoples of Middle-Earth,
always bringing happiness to take away the darkness.  This is the
most accurate origin of Gandalf I have ever read.  Somewhere else in
the Silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of The Rings of Power and the
Third Age) it is suggested that Gandalf might have been Manwe (King
of the Valar) in disguise, but that is highly unlikely.

gregbo

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Moria gate (again)
Date: 26 Apr 86 00:08:00 GMT

BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes:
>knowing the dwarves..... Someone out there probably knows the
>reason the message was in elven without having to go look it up --
>so?

The dwarves had the mithril, but the elves knew how to use it.  So
they hired the making of the West-gate out to an elf of Hollin (when
the West-gate looked out upon the fruitful land of Hollin, home of
High-Elves).  The full inscription contains the author's signature
(the elf, not Tolkien), but I don't remember it and can't look it
up.  (Elves frequently came to Moria for mithril and other metals
and gems, via the West-gate.)

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: mcomp!dixon@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Buck Rogers
Date: 24 Apr 86 02:41:00 GMT

>In another episode (the one where all the pilots get sick -
>starring Jack Palance as Kalil), they dig up a retired pilot played
>by none other than Buster Crabbe.  Buck is talking to Buster about
>being careful on the upcoming mission:
>
>Buster: "I've been flying since before you were born."
>Buck: "I don't think so." (referring to the 500 year sleep)
>Buster: "I do" (obviously a meta-reference to BC playing BR in the
>  old serials.)

  Unless my memory is failing (parity errors) or my ears 'bit
picked', the character that BC played was a "Commander Gordon".  No
first name was given.  Could this possibly be a reference to
Buster's _other_ serial hero, Flash?

Carrington Dixon
UUCP:  infoswx!mcomp!dixon

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 86 0944-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #93
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Apr 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:

              Books - Herbert & Moorcock & Stasheff &
                      Tolkien (2 msgs) & Wilson &
                      Funny SF & Paperback Book Release Dates,
              Miscellaneous - Copyrights & Quotes &
                      Hugo Nominations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 27 Apr 86 14:24:41-EDT
From: Daniel Burstein <D-BURSTEIN@CUTC20>
Subject: re:  projections in past sf-novels that didn't quite make
Subject: it....

from :21st Century Sub, by Frank Herbert
scenario: Ramsey, Sparrow, and Garcia are aboard an advanced
submarine in a WWIII type situation, heading towards the Soviet
coast.  They've just discovered that one of their radio tubes has
been modified to send out a tracking signal so that the bad guys can
find them.  They are now taking apart the console:

   Sparrow checked it on a balance scale.  "Right on."  He replaced
   the tube, said, "You know, when I was in high school they were
   saying that someday they'd run systems like this with transistors
   and printed circuits."

      "They did for a while," said Garcia.  "Then we got into sweep
   circuits," said Sparrow.  He pulled out an octode cummulator
   tube, read off the code, checked the weight.

   "We could still get by with the lighter stuff if weren't for the
   high atmospheric pressures."  He went on to another tube.  "What
   we need is a dialectric as tough as plasteel."

   "Or an armistice," said Garcia.

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!cccallan@caip.rutgers.edu (Allan McKillop)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 28 Apr 86 01:59:57 GMT

>A while ago, somebody mentioned a series of books written by
>Michael Moorcock based on his "Eternal Champion" concept.  Having
>just finished the Elric Saga, I would be very interested if someone
>would post a list of the books that make up the series...

Here is a list of all the Eternal Champion stuff the Moorcock has
written so far (I think. It is all the stuff I have ever found).
Some of the Elric books have been printed under other names (The
Singing Citadel and Stealer of Souls are the two that I have found)
that do not correspond directly to any of the present Elric books on
the market.  Also, the first three of the Corum books are published
under the title of The Swords Trilogy and the last three under the
title of The Chronicles of Corum.  If anyone else out there knows of
other Eternal Champion books, I would be greatful if he/she would
either send me the name or post information.

Erekose
   The Eternal Champion

Ulrik:
   Phoenix in Obsidian (The Silver Warriors)

Elric:
   Elric of Melnibone
   The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
   The Weird of the White Wolf
   The Vanishing Tower
   The Bane of the Black Sword
   Stormbringer
   Elric at the End of Time

Hawkmoon:
   The Jewel in the Skull
   The Mad God's Amulet
   The Sword of the Dawn
   The Runestaff
   Count Brass
   The Champion of Garathorm
   The Quest for Tanelorn

Corum:
   The Knight of the Swords
   The Queen of the Swords
   The King of the Swords
   The Bull and the Spear
   The Oak and the Ram
   The Sword and the Stallion

Allan McKillop
...{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccallan    (UUCP)
...ucdavis!deneb!cccallan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: Mini-review of new Warlock book (with mini-spoilers!)

                       THE WARLOCK WANDERING
                                 by
                        Christoper Stasheff
               Ace Science Fiction, 1986, 297 pages.

The up-and-down Warlock series is up again.  Rod and Gwen
Gallowglass (without the kids this time) go gallivanting through
time and space, joining some of the characters from the novel ESCAPE
VELOCITY.  This book avoids most of the problems suffered by THE
WARLOCK ENRAGED, and although it's a bit talky in spots (especially
in the first third of the book), it's a real page-turner.  (Someone
on the net recently said that Stasheff was a poor SF writer but a
great storyteller; THE WARLOCK WANDERING certainly supports that
assertion.)  It look like Stasheff is finally starting to shape
events toward the grand destiny of the planet Gramarye that he has
hinted at since the first book; this is all to the good, since I've
been afraid that we would be subjected to an indefinite number of
carbon-copy adventures of the Gallowglasses without anything really
happening to advance the overall story.  Fortunately, it looks like
Stasheff has avoided that trap.

I rate THE WARLOCK WANDERING +3 on the -4 to +4 scale.  For
comparison, here is how I rate the other books in the series:

   THE WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF    +4
   KING KOBOLD                         0
   THE WARLOCK UNLOCKED               +3
   KING KOBOLD REVIVED                +1
   ESCAPE VELOCITY                    +3
   THE WARLOCK ENRAGED                 0

And by the way, the pre-title page lists the books in the series,
including:

   THE WARLOCK IS MISSING (coming September 1986.)

marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Speak, friend and enter
Date: 26 Apr 86 00:16:17 GMT

>Quenya bears roughly the same relationship to Westron (the common
>tongue of men in the third age) as Latin does to English;

Not really.  Westron was a descendant of the language of the
Numenoreans, Adu^naic, which was in turn derived from the languages
of the three houses of Men during the First Age, with _some_ Elvish
influences...probably from the languages of the Avari (which had
diverged quite a bit from Quenya and Sindarin), during the time
before they came West, with a little Sindarin thrown in through the
three Ages.  Both the time element and the lack of Quenya influences
on Westron make this a weak analogy.

>anyone who has tried translating Latin will recognize Gandalf's
>confusion and sympathize with it.

Maybe I've got you too out-of-context here, but remember Gandalf was
a Maia, and as such well-acquainted with the language of the Light
Elves.  I don't think his difficulty was in translation, only in
interpretation.

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr.
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

From: szy@gcc-milo.ARPA (Steven J Szymanski <szy@gcc-milo.ARPA>)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 27 Apr 86 17:11:05 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP (Bhaskar) writes:
>My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
>anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? ....  If Tolkien does
>say something definite, I would like to know where it is said . I
>do not have the time to start reading the trilogy all over again.

The answer to your question is not in _The_Hobbit_ but rather in
_The_Silmarillion_. In it, Tolkien states that Gandalf was one of
"the Istari, whom Man called Wizards", who "were messengers sent by
the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron". While I can
not provide quotes to support it, it is my impression that the
Istari were yet another class of Maiar (who correspond roughly to
Angels/Demons in JRRT's mythos). The Balrog who Gandalf fought under
Moria was of another flavor of Maiar.

While I recognize that _The_Silmariallion_ is difficult reading in
places, I strongly recommend it if you are interested in
understanding the Rings Trilogy in more detail (for instance, it
also explains the significance of their taking the boats to the West
at the end of the story, and who Elbereth is that her name caries
such power).

Steven J Szymanski
uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-milo!szy

------------------------------

From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson
Date: 26 Apr 86 19:52:47 GMT

>From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM
>     There was another book, something like "Wheels within Wheels",
>and a number of short stories published in Analog through the
>seventies.  His stories are fun.  "Healer" is the expanded version
>of "Pard" which was published in Analog.  He often tries to make
>the point of the best government is that which governs least.

I would replace "often tries to make the point. . ." with "seldom
resists the temptation to ham-handedly moralize", otherwise, I would
agree with the above.  He is a fairly good writer, whose quality is
inversely proportional to the amount of politics he injects into the
storyline (I disagree with him, isn't it obvious).  He has a story
called *The Teri* in one of the *Binary Stars* which is excellent.

Soren Petersen

------------------------------

From: rtech!bobm@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Mcqueer)
Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF (ASTRA & FLONDRIX and
Subject: others)
Date: 27 Apr 86 02:47:16 GMT

>   ASTRA & FLONDRIX, Seamus ????.  True SF erotica/porn (no human
>   involved).  Probably not arousing to our species, but damned
>   funny.

Seamus Cullen.  And there ARE human characters in addition to the
elves, dwarves, witches, etc.  I have been watching this discussion
to see if anybody else had ever read this.  It has to be some of the
most inventive pornography ever written.  I've never been 100% sure
this book wasn't one of those obscure jokes by some well known
author writing under a pseudonym.  It isn't what I'd call terrific
writing style, but it isn't badly written, and it is definitely the
product of a very demented mind.  Imagine Phillip Jose Farmer on
acid writing high fantasy for Hustler.

There's been some good recommendations here.  I'll second Douglas
Adam's stuff, the earlier Retief stories, Jack Chalker's "And the
Devil Will Drag You Under", Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of
Kleenex", "Venus on the Halfshell", Avram Davidson's "Peregrine"
stories, Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat", "The Flying Sorcerers",
Shea and Wilson's "Illuminatus" trilogy, "Bored of the Rings"
(although inconsistent, and very dated in many places), Niven's
"Draco's Tavern" stories, and "Fantasia Mathematica" (be sure to
read "The Devil and Simon Flagg").

I don't think anyone's mentioned:

Larry Niven's "Svetz" stories - you'll find them in the collection
"Get a Horse".  I believe an earlier edition was titled "There's a
Wolf in my Time Machine".  These are time-travel stories with a
definite humorous slant.  I found them very entertaining.

Ellison when he is being funny is VERY funny.  "How's the Night Life
on Cissalda?", "New York Review of the Bird", "Street Scene" (w
Keith Laumer) and "Up Christopher to Madness" (with Avram Davidson)
spring to mind.  Of course, a lot of Ellison isn't fantasy or SF,
but he doesn't seem to be able to convince publishers of that.  And
I like him, whatever you want to call what he writes.

"The Borribles", by Michael De Larrabetti (I am almost certain I
mangled the spelling of his name, but I don't have the book handy).
This is an inventive little fantasy work, very well crafted.  It is
the sort of fantasy work that mainstream book clubs like to cluck
over to show that they're being broad minded, but doesn't suffer
from the terminal "charm" usually present in those works.  Its story
line sounds like it could: borribles, you see, are the children
nobody pays attention to - they grow pointed ears, never grow up,
and live in the sewers beneath the city.  However, Mr. D. (I won't
mangle the name a second time) manages to tread exactly the right
line.  This isn't exclusively humorous like some of those mentioned
above, but it definitely has some droll elements.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Apr 86 20:28 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Paperback release dates

New books often come in and sell out of bookstores very quickly, and
most stores are poor about reordering these books.  This especially
goes for the chain stores which, as they get more and more
computerized, they also get increasingly less flexible.  (Employees
can't get away with ordering books they know will sell in the face
of company policy, as the main office will catch them at it.)

I watched the new books come in last month, so I'd have a more
precise idea of when to pick up new books before they could
disappear on me.  The information below is a result of this
surveying, and covers all paperbacks with a May interior date; the
weeks are a Monday-Sunday coverage, with the date given the Monday
beginning the period in question:

March 31:  Bantam/Spectra
April 7:   Tor, Berkley
April 14:  Del Rey, Warner/Questar, Avon, Dell
April 21:  DAW/Signet, Ace, Baen/Pocket

Note that the above list does not include any hardcovers; these are
not released on such regular schedules.  While I have not previously
kept precise records on release dates, the above list is consistent
with my memory of the last few months.  I hope this information
comes in handy.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@umass-cs.csnet

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Mr. Blore)
Subject: Re: Character Copyright
Date: 26 Apr 86 20:43:50 GMT

BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU writes:
>I don't think characters CAN be copyrighted. The authors can moan
>and groan, and maybe trademark protection can apply to, say, STAR
>WARS characters, but I don't think ordinary characters and
>situations can be held as the sole reserve of an author.

  In my contract with Blade (the publishing arm of Flying Buffalo,
an Arizona-based fantasy-game company) all the contents of my work
are copyrighted, while Blade and I share the rights to use the
characters in other works.

                      {hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: m128a3aw@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: Quotes
Date: 27 Apr 86 04:11:34 GMT

ags@pucc-h.UUCP (Dave Seaman) writes:
>spencer@usc-oberon.UUCP (Randy Spencer) writes:
>> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows."
>
>Actually this is from "Arena" when Spock observes that Kirk is
>gathering the raw materials needed to manufacture gunpowder.

As others have pointed out, Spock says this in "City on the Edge of
Forever" after Kirk prevents the good Doctor from saving Edith.

The quote from Arena that you are thinking of is
"He knows, Doctor. He has reasoned it out."

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ucbvax!cory!cc-30

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: **HUGO NOMINATIONS** (Unofficial)
Date: 26 Apr 86 08:10:23 GMT

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>DRAMATIC PRESENTATION
>
>BACK TO THE FUTURE
>BRAZIL
>COCOON
>ENEMY MINE
>LADYHAWKE

This list surprised me - this has really been an astounding year for
SF/Fantasy films that it can produce a list like this.  The typical
year has one or two good films.  This year contains two films, BTTF
and Brazil, which will no doubt get added to the list of
"crossovers" for the genere.  (BTTF, before you detract it, as one
of the best SF comedies ever made, certainly the best time travel
comedy)

Add to that three other good, if not classic films, and you have an
exceptional year.

Event SF films are rare.  These are SF films that everybody will
recall several years from now.  Films you can safely make allusions
to.  Films you can talk about that no single person will say,
"what?" to.

This past decade has been very good.  In the past there was hardly
anything from 2001 in 1968 to Star Wars: A New Hope in 1977.

Star Wars IV, Star Wars V, E.T. The Extra Terestrial, Star Trek
series Ghostbusters, and Raiders of the Lost Ark are the films which
make it to this list.  (WARNING.  DO NOT post articles saying what
you think should be on this list, or what you think should be
removed.)

The point here is that SF/Fantasy films are now regularly becoming
top grossing or most talked about films for a given year.  SF is now
truly the big time.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 86 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #94
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust & Chalker & Green (2 msgs) &
                     Sucharitkul & Tilley & 
                     Tolkien (2 msgs) & Trout,
             Films - Legend,
             Television - Wizards and Warriors,
             Miscellaneous - SFL T-Shirts & Origin of "fen" &
                     Slang & Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Apr 86 15:39:08-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>
Subject: Funny SF

Last week I read Jhereg and Yendi on the basis of the discussion on
this list. Although the books don't seem to qualify as "funny
stories", they have their little gems of laughter every few pages.
I was highly amused by one particular reference to the outside media
world in Yendi.

Judy.

------------------------------

From: jc3b21!larry@caip.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: RE: Alive Computers
Date: 26 Apr 86 15:11:18 GMT

> From: <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
> is the size of a small planitoid and the Well World it's self if a
> single computer.  Whild the Well World is the computer that has
> created the entire universe, and is the most powerful computer
> that I have ever seen written

To set the record a bit straighter, the Well World computer was NOT
responsible for creating the universe, simply for maintaining the
mathematics thereof.  It was used by "Nathan Brazil (fill in here
your ideas for who/ what may have preceeded him)" to LOCATE a white
hole from which energy was drawn to re-create the universe in a
later book.

Also note that the computer actually was the Well World planetoid
(with remotes at various locations) with a control center in the
center of the planet at what was called the 'Well of Souls'
(Interesting choice of terminology'


Lawrence F. Strickland (larry@jc3b21)
Dept. of Engineering Technology
St. Petersburg Jr. College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
Phone:  +1 813 341 4705
UUCP:  ...akgua!akguc!codas!peora!ucf-cs!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry

------------------------------

From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 25 Apr 86 20:13:09 GMT

> ...as well as some absolute HIDEOUS junk (like some book, I forget
> the title, but it was subtitled "Diane Santee, space agent" or
> some such, see, I was looking for books with women as main
> characters, but this one turns out to be one who really gets off
> on rape and slavery, etc. The author claims to be one Sharon
> Greene, but if it was written by a woman, I'll be EXTREMELY
> surprised. By the way, I returned the book (got my money back)
> after flipping through about *100+* pages of detailed description
> of women being "trained" as slaves, begging for sexual relief from
> their masters .... uck! The woman at the cash register said it was
> a *series*, and the second one had something like "if you liked
> the Gor novels ..." on the cover!

The title was MIND GUEST, and it made me so angry I planned to mail
the book back to the author (this is the highest insult I can think
of).  But even better is the chance to warn everyone on the net to
avoid this book and author forever.

Kimiye Tipton
Maitland, FL  USA
USENET: ihnp4!ides!kimi
CORNET:  754-6472  (305-660-6472)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 86 02:16 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Sharon Green

You are EXTREMELY surprised.  Sharon Green was on a couple of panels
at Boskone this year, and was indeed a woman in her 40s with a son
in college (who hadn't yet read any of her books), and who said she
writes what she wants to.  I haven't read any of her books, but I do
know that she's writing them at the rate of two a year, and has
three series in progress; the one you apparently got hold of was
"Diana Santee, Spaceways Agent".

Andrew Sigel
sigel@umass-cs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 28 Apr 1986 18:20:53-PDT
From: heilman%cad.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Hans Heilman)
Subject: Re: Funny F & SF

Another I book I would classify as "funny SF" is MALLWORLD by Somtow
Sucharitkul, which involves adventures in a 50 kilometer long
Shopping Mall in space. Recommended for those with a slightly
twisted sense of humor (featuring custom designed babies courtesy of
Storkways, Inc.... don't miss a payment or the Bogeyman will get you
-- and Death by Vampire at the Way Out Suicide Parlors).

Hans Heilman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 86 02:16 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Patrick Tilley's trilogy

> bucsb!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster) writes:
> One [author] I'd like to hear about is Patrick Tilley (?), who
> wrote _Cloud_Warrior_ a couple of years ago.  It was supposed to
> be part of a trilogy, but in two years, I haven't seen a second
> book to it.  . . .  Does anyone know what's happened to it?  _CW_
> just came out in paperback, but none of the local book shops seem
> to have heard of anything else by him (one wouldn't even admit the
> book existed).

The second book in Tilley's "Amtrak Wars" trilogy, "The First
Family", has been out around here in a Baen Books paperback for
about a month now.  I have not heard about the third volume.  Tilley
has also written the novels "Fade-Out" (1975) and "The Mission"
(1982); I have no idea if they are currently in print.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@umass-cs.csnet

------------------------------

From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 27 Apr 86 19:25:27 GMT

>> My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
>> anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ?
>
>he states... that he is known as ... Olorin in the days when the
>world was young....  in the Silmarillion... there is a short
>paragraph at the end telling about Olorin, a Maia, who studied long
>under Nienna and learned patience, after which he went out from
>Aman and aided the peoples of Middle-Earth, always bringing
>happiness to take away the darkness.  This is the most accurate
>origin of Gandalf I have ever read.

Yes.  It's pretty well accepted by the ...flame me if you like:
"experts" (the various dissertation writers and Tolkien society
types)...that Olorin the Maia and a few of his brethren became the
Istari, or wizards.  See entries on the subject in a good
post-Silmarillion Tolkien guide, such as Robert ...'s _Guide to
Middle Earth_.  (Damn.  Why can't I think of his name?  "Graves"
keeps popping into my head, and it certainly wasn't him!)

(Question for discussion: _aside_ from the fact that Tolkien as an
author didn't work much with female characters, WHY do you think
there were no female wizards?  Surely not inability to cope with the
hazards of an uncivilized world: look at Galadriel, or even at her
rather more cloistered granddaughter, both of whom weathered the
storms of centuries rather well.)

>Somewhere else in the Silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of The
>Rings of Power and the Third Age) it is suggested that Gandalf
>might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is
>highly unlikely.

I'll look it up when I get home, but I find this so unlikely that
I'd like a more specific reference, please.

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr.
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 02:28:29 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: The language of the inscription on the doors of Moria

From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
>The inscription on the doors of Moria were written in Quenya
>(High Elvish).

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
>For one thing, the dwarvish runes above the West Gate of Moria
>are in Quenya, or high Elvan.

(I tried to resist, but as an ex-linguist and childhood Tolkien
fiend, I couldn't let this pass...)

'Pedo mellon a minno' is Sindarin, folks.  The inscription is even in
the Sindarin style, using Sindarin vowel marks instead of Quenya
'tehtar'.  Even the sound of the phrase should tip you off -- 'pedo'
is derived from the same root as 'quenya', with typically Sindarin
phonological changes.  Another clue to the identity of the language
is Gandalf's description of it as 'the elven-tongue of the West of
Middle Earth in the Elder Days', where 'West' must refer to
Beleriand, where Sindarin originated.  Finally (I hate to say this)
one of Tolkien's own notes in the appendix to RINGS describes the
Moria inscription as an interesting example of the spelling of
Sindarin.

As for why Legolas kept his trap shut, wouldn't you too, if Gandalf
were in your party?  Gandalf presumably spoke Quenya as his native
tongue and had a few thousand years experience with other Elvish
dialects...  Legolas was a young elf from North Mirkwood (pop. 219),
who spoke Silvan Elvish and probably didn't learn Sindarin until
junior high.  Grumble.

Beam me up, Gandalf,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Who is Kilgore Trout ?
Date: 28 Apr 86 12:57:10 GMT

johnf@apollo.uucp (John Francis) writes:
>> No discussion of humorous science fiction can pass without
>> mention of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, and his pseudonym, Kilgore Trout!
>
>I knew Kilgore Trout was a Vonnegut character, but I was under the
>impression that "Venus on the Half-Shell" (supposedly written by
>Kilgore Trout) was, in fact, written by somebody completely
>different (not Vonnegut). Can anybody out there set me straight on
>this detail ?

It was my understanding that 'Venus' was written by Philip Jose
Farmer, shortly followed by his pseudo-biographies of various 30's
pulp heroes such as 'Tarzan Alive'.

Robert Halloran
UUCP: ..topaz!caip!unirot!halloran
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857
Ph: (201) 251-7514

------------------------------

From: mpm@hpfcms
Subject: Re: Legend
Date: 24 Apr 86 20:11:00 GMT

Ed Falk writes:
> Basically it's about the good guys trying to keep the bad guy (Tim
> Curry as Satan, but for some reason the movie makers wouldn't say
> it outright, so they had the characters refer to him as "the big
> D")

     I think "Legend" takes place in a mythical time "long ago".
There are certainly parallels between Christian mythology (e.g.
"Hell" and "Satan"), but Tim Curry's character "Darkness" is
distinct from that of Satan.  Nor is the "underworld" hell; it's
some kind of "tree".

     I think a more apropos point of reference would be modern
fantasy or perhaps (fill-in-the-blank) mythology.  The story has a
similar "feel" to the Arthurian legends.

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28-APR-1986 11:20 EDT
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTVAX5.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Wizards and Warriors

A couple of years ago Barry Gold put out some episodes of a
continuation of the very short lived series Wizards and Warriors.. I
have up to installment 16.. Does anyone know if his wife, Lee, wrote
any more, and if so, would anyone be willing to send them to me?

Ron Jarrell
Jarrellr@vtvax3.bitnet

------------------------------

From: h-sc2!samson@caip.rutgers.edu (greg samson)
Subject: Wanted: SFL T-shirt info
Date: 27 Apr 86 05:45:46 GMT

I remember seeing that information about how to get an SF-Lovers
T-shirt was posted a little while ago.  Unfortunately, I was in the
process of changing the machine that I read news on, and I managed
to lose it.  Could someone ***MAIL*** me the information that I need
to get one?

Thanks.
G. T. Samson
gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU
samson%h-sc2@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

From: lpi!abc@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Fen: a query
Date: 27 Apr 86 01:12:11 GMT

Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA> writes:
>As an individual unsocialized sf-lover for a long time but a fairly
>recent subscriber to this digest, I would be interested in seeing
>an etymology and definition of "fen" (I do have some idea what it
>must mean).  Also, while I know the meaning of "filksong," I am
>curious about its etymology too.

Just as "men" is the plural of "man", "fen" is the plural of "fan".
A science fiction "fan" is a reader of SF, a member of one or more
of the many fan groups throughout the world, and/or an attendee of
science fiction conventions.  Such activities are termed "fannish."

Our guess as to "filksong" is that it is the legacy of a typographic
error in a program book at a science fiction convention (a "con")
many years ago which sounded weird enough to be taken into common
fannish vocabulary.  Evidence to support this is that when people
got together for "filksinging" at cons 20 to 25 years ago, they sang
what we would consider FOLK songs: normal songs from the popular
folk milieu, rather than today's FILK songs which are usually
popular melodies with fannish lyrics.  (But since we here don't
filk, we could easily be wrong.)

Anton   (...!{harvard,linus}!axiom!lpi!abc)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Apr 86 10:04:30-EDT
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: slang

        There was a survey done recently (I think by Newsweek, but
I'm not sure) which looked at the current slang on college campuses.
Anyone who's read _Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ should recognize
the slang from University of Rochester: a cool person is "hoopy" or
"froody" (As in "You sass that hoopy Ford Prefect?  There's one
frood who really knows where his towel is!").

Rob Freundlich
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

From: ritcv!iav1917@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan I. Vymetalik)
Date: 28 Apr 86 04:54:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster ("Official Recipe")

pro@trwrba.UUCP writes:
>Has anyone out there ever tried to make a Pan Galactic Gargle
>Blaster?  Any ideas on how to make one????

For those in search of the finest drinks throughout the universe!

Here's the "Official Recipe for the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster".
Please note up front that no commercialism is intended here.  I am
just spreading the knowledge...

I had to hunt a while through my volumes of disks and disk database
program to find it....but I finally did.  This "recipe" is from a
FIDO BBS in upstate New York.  The name?  "The HitchHiker's Guide",
naturally.  The SysOp is Fritz Howard and you can reach the "Guide"
at 1-315-589-7361.  It operates 24 hours a day and caters primarily
to the DEC Rainbow world.

p.s.  The text has been edited for typographical errors but retains
the full mind-blowing formula.

Enjoy!  Someone have a couple for me and post the results to the
net!

Alan I. Vymetalik
Usenet: {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!iav1917
UUCP:   iav1917@ritcv.UUCP
Bitnet: aiv1974@ritvaxd

                  THE PAN GALACTIC GARGLE BLASTER

     The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy states that the effect of
  drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains
  smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

                          How to make one

     - Take the juice from one bottle of Ol' Janx Spirit.

     - Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of
       Santraginus V (Oh, that Santraginus seawater! Oh, those
       Santraginus fish!)

     - Allow three cubes of Artutan Mega-gin to melt into the
       mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzine is lost)

     - Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it,
       in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure
       in the Marshes of Fallia.

     - Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin
       Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the
       dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet, and mystic.

      - Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger.  Watch it
        dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into
        the heart of the drink.

      - Sprinkle Zamphuor.

      - Add an olive.

      - Drink ... oh! but ... very carefully ...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 86 1008-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #95
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:

           Books - Moorcock (2 msgs) & Sladek & Tilley &
                   Tolkien (2 msgs) & Animals in SF &
                   Codex Seraphinianus & Funny SF (3 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Copyrights (2 msgs) &
                   Fannish Words (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 29 Apr 86 00:06:27 GMT

Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect with
everything else he's written?  I seem to recall, although I can't
think quite where, my collection being 600 miles away, that the
Eternal Champion books connected to the Jerry Cornelius/Dancers at
the End of time books.

Just Curious. . .

Soren Petersen

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 29 Apr 86 00:09:30 GMT

I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_
about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group
Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything else
he's written.  I think it's now out of print.  Small loss.

Ellen

------------------------------

From: drivax!alexande@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark G. Alexander)
Subject: Re: Oh No! More Funny SF!
Date: 28 Apr 86 18:53:01 GMT

KLOUDA@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>If anyone knows of other books by John Sladek please let me know.

Mechasm
   A novel, published by Ace a while back, may not be in print
   anymore.  Haven't read it in so long, I can't remember anything
   about it.

The Steam-Driven Boy
   A collection of stories; I have a British paperback (Penguin or
   Panther, it's at home, can't look it up).  It ends with some
   brilliant parodies of famous science fiction writers, including
   J.G. Ballard, Isaac Asimov, A.C. Clarke, P.K. Dick ("Solar Shoe
   Salesman" by Chipdip K. Kill), R.A. Heinlein (Hitler A. E.
   Bonner), Cordwainer Smith, and others.  Probably the funniest SF
   book I've read.

Mark Alexander
{ihnp4,mot,ucscc,ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl} !drivax!alexande

------------------------------

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Patrick Tilley's trilogy
Date: 29 Apr 86 08:04:54 GMT

SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes:
>The second book in Tilley's "Amtrak Wars" trilogy, "The First
>Family", has been out around here in a Baen Books paperback for
>about a month now.  I have not heard about the third volume.
>Tilley has also written the novels "Fade-Out" (1975) and "The
>Mission" (1982); I have no idea if they are currently in print.

   The second novel has been out for at least a year, at least in
England.  So I would expect the third soon, and since Baen is now
printing his books here it might come out almost as soon in the US.
I find it hard to believe it is going to be only a trilogy, though;
he would have to start explaining things about 100x faster in order
to wrap the series up in a third volume.
   I don't recommend "Fade-Out" or "Mission"; the first is
especially bad.  But the Amtrak Wars books are good, although I am
dubious about the chances for a strong ending...

David desJardins

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Wizards (and myths)
Date: 28 Apr 86 22:50:25 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes:
>My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
>anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life
>are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into which
>category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ?
>
>If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where
>it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy
>all over again.

The answer (if it is one) is in the SILMARILLION.  There are five
wizards: Gandalf the Grey (now White), Saruman the (former) White,
Radagast the Brown, and the two Blue wizards who disappeared shortly
after arriving from Valinor.  The wizards are, apparently, Maiar
(servants? children? of the Valar); so, in fact, is the Valar Melkur
(Morgoth)'s servant, the Maiar known as Sauron.  This is not said
straight out (Tolkien believed in unknown prehistory, I guess), but
it is strongly implied.  They were sent to combat Melkur and Sauron,
and left after Sauron was vanquished.

>P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ?
>True, one is set in the past, the other in the future and the Ring
>and the Force have almost opposite "properties". But in both cases
>we have a protagonist thrust, willy-nilly into a fine imbroglio.
>Gandalf - Kenobi , Saruman - Darth Vader , Sauron - Palpatine ,
>Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. When I
>mentioned this to my room-mate, he disagreed strongly. Is my vision
>distorted ?

Similarities can be shown for the LENSMAN books as well.  This
particular mythology is a very popular one, in both its incarnations
(strong protagonist, as Kimball Kinnison, or weak protagonist, as
Frodo).  (For that matter, Kinnison is pretty small himself compared
to an Arisian... or (as happened) Gharlane of Eddore.)

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 28 Apr 86 15:49:05 GMT

There is an entire chapter on the Origins of the Wizards in
"Unfinished Tales", published posthumously. In fact, I think
everything relating to Middle-Earth, besides the Trilogy and The
Hobbit and some shorter works were published after he died.

In any event, the wizards are sort of minor (very minor) deities who
are trying to keep the Vaia (sp?) in touch with the goings-on in
Middle-Earth.  Read the book for more info.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

From: drivax!holloway@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: animals animals animals
Date: 28 Apr 86 18:38:45 GMT

>From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>I'm working on the topic of intelligent animals and how they've
>been handled by different authors. I'd be interested in seeing
>who's your favorite 'animal handler' and why. All with thoughts
>toward a comparison article in the future.

"The Island of Dr. Moreau", by Jules Verne. Weird island with a
typical Vernian villian, i.e., mad scientist makes amazing discovery
and uses it for his own ends, which almost always include ruling the
world. Jude (he always made me call him "Jude") had a real obsession
with science controlling everybody's lives.

In any event "The Island" is about a scientist holed up in a
tropical island, discovered by *our shipwrecked hero* (another oft
used plot device) and thwarted in his plans to use animal
vivisection and genetic manipulation to rule the world. Had lots of
interesting zoothropes in it.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 09:24 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: _Codex_Seraphinianus_

Recently I was reading Douglas Hofstadter's _Metamagical_Themas_
(not an sf book, but great for all you metaphilosophers,
mathematicians, linguists, Rubik's cubists, etc.)  In his chapter on
nonsense I came across a reference to a book called
_Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an "encyclopedia" by an
Italian architect about some strange other world/universe with
full-color illustrations...  written in a language completely
unknown on Earth.  It must be a linguist's delight.  Has anyone here
read it?

In the same paragraph he mentions _A_Humument_, by Tom Phillips,
which is an old Victorian novel which has been "treated" by having
selected pages all but entirely obscured with paint, leaving a few
words to peek out...

(Needless to say, I'm a great lover of nonsense.  Doesn't ANYONE
read Gertrude Stein anymore?)

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 12:07:37 EDT
From: Kathy Kerby <kkerby@bbnccp.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Funny SF

The Gallegher stories that a couple of people mentioned were written
by Henry Kuttner, who sometimes wrote under the name of Lewis
Padgett.  He wrote in the 1940's and 50's.  One of the Gallegher
stories, "The Proud Robot", appears in a collection called _The Best
of Henry Kuttner_, published by Ballantine in 1975, probably out of
print now.  All of them are together in a book called _Robots Have
No Tails_, definitely out of print.  I got it from the MIT SF club,
and there was never a borrowed book that I came closer to not
returning.  The book is terrific, and I would love to hear from
anyone who knows where I can acquire a copy.

Kuttner also wrote several screamingly funny stories about a
hillbilly family called the Hogbens who are telepathic, telekinetic,
etc (mutants?).  "Cold War" is in that _Best Of_ collection.

Another set of short stories that I have read and re-read with
pleasure is Arthur Clarke's _Tales From the White Hart_.  This falls
into the same category of "funny ones told in a bar" as Spider
Robinson's _Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_ and _Time Travelers
Strictly Cash_.  The Clarke stories are more SF jokes (with less
tragedy mixed in) than the Robinson stories.

BTW, this is a great topic. I've been copying down all the funny SF
titles I haven't already read, and getting them out of the library.
Good suggestions, everyone!  I loved _The Colour of Magic_,
"Allamagoosa", _Next Of Kin_ = _Plus X_, so far.

Thanks!
kkerby (kkerby@bbnccp.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 12:45:54 EDT
From: Chettri@dewey.udel.EDU
Cc: suicidechump@udel-mae.ARPA
Subject: RE: FUNNY FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION

One book that does not crop up at all in all the postings so far is

TALES FROM WHITE HART - Arthur C. Clarke

It consists of short stories mostly dealing with one Harry Purvis.
The last story 'THE DEFENESTRATION OF ERMINTRUDE INCH' is hilarious.
though it really isn't SF.

Samir Chettri

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 86 10:46 PDT
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: Re: Funny Stories

Finally I have something that I am seriously going to contribute to
the net, my list of humorous/funny/entertaining Fantasy and Science
Fiction.  The list contains books that I have read and that have not
already been mentioned (or is worthy of mentioning again.)

Bellair, John   The Face in the Frost  - FA funny
Carroll, Lewis  Alice in Wonderland, Through the Looking Glass
Friesner, E.    Harlot's Ruse  - FA more entertaining than humorous
Goulart, Ron    Hellquad / Suicide, Inc / Brainz, Inc - All SF,
  absurdly funny
Huntly, Tim     One on Me - SF distopian future, but parts were
  extremely funny
Kipling, R.     The Jungle Books, Just so Stories
Lee, Tanith     The Dragon Hoard - FA, juvinile story but great,
  funny
                The Four Bee Novels  - SF, different twist of view
                   1) Don't Bite the Sun
                   2) Drinking Sapphire Wine
Schmitz, James  Telzey Amberdon: (if their are any more let me know)
                   1) The Universe Against Her  - SF just entertaining
                   2) Telzey and other Stories  - but worthy of
                      mention
                   3) The Lion Game
Young, R.       King Vizer's Second Daughter  - Aribian Nights FA,
   entertaining

Lance
Net: lance@LOGICON.ARPA

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Character Copyright
Date: 26 Apr 86 13:50:40 GMT

>From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
>I don't think characters CAN be copyrighted. The authors can moan
>and groan, and maybe trademark protection can apply to, say, STAR
>WARS characters, but I don't think ordinary characters and
>situations can be held as the sole reserve of an author.

True, as Laurence writes, ORDINARY characters and situations cannot
be held as the sole reserve of an author, but extraordinary ones
apparently can.  Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova won a plagerism suit
against ABC TV, claiming that the idea of a crusty street cop
partnered with a robot was original to them (from their mediocre
story BRILLO ("metal fuzz" :-) ) published first in ANALOG.  ABC and
screenwriter Michael Wilson had to pay them, if I recall correctly,
something like $300,000 because the judge agreed that the TV flick
and short lived series FUTURE COP (with Ernest Borgnine, later
retitled CLEAVER AND HAVEN) was a rip-off of that story.  The trial
was covered in LOCUS some years back.

Similarly, Ellison claimed to be creator of the concept of a time-
travelling robot designed to change history by selective
assassination and won a sum of money plus oon-screen credit on all
videocassette copies of THE TERMINATOR in an out-of-court
settlement.  (Ellison's original use of the character was in a
brilliant episode of THE OUTER LIMITS entitled DEMON WITH A GLASS
HAND, starring Robert Culp),

On the other hand, Lucasfilm tried to block the release of
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA on plagerism grounds.  Although much of the
look and feel of BATTLESTAR was the same as STAR WARS, no
correspondence between specific plot elements and specific
characters could be demonstrated and the suit failed.

Cheers
Robert J. Sawyer (Member, SFWA)
In Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Character Copyright
Date: 26 Apr 86 07:34:00 GMT

If a character is my invention and someone else uses it in a
published story, they're making money off of my creative labor and
will hear from my attorney.

Still, it's not an unreasonable question.  When I was much younger
and more naive -- say, oh, two years ago -- I was entertaining the
idea of writing a Feghoot.  My similar inquiry was sizzled so fast
you wouldn't believe it and I saw the light rather quickly.

This does NOT apply, however, to characters in the public domain,
e.g., those never copyrighted or those upon whom copyright has
expired.  Hence, Sherlock Holmes, D'Artangnan, etc., are fair game.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ism780/jimb
hplabs/hao/ico/ism780/jimb
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ism780C/ism780/jimb

------------------------------

From: hpccc!dlow@caip.rutgers.edu (dlow)
Subject: Re: Fen and Filksong
Date: 28 Apr 86 16:55:00 GMT
Subject: Fannish words

Fen is the plural of fan. Filksong is a typo for folksong that
became accepted as meaning science fiction or fannish folksong.  The
origins of filksong is uncertain. I believe that the first recorded
use of fen is traceable but I do not know who first used it. The use
of fan slang is declining in fandom and is used more in jest than
seriousness. Only certain words such as filksong are in common and
frequent use (because they are useful labels for common fan
activities.)

Danny Low
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 08:06 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Fen: a query
Cc: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>

"Fen" is the plural of "fan" as "men" is the plural of "man", or so
it was explained to me.

The etymology of "filk" is unknown, but most experts agree that it
probably began as a typo of "folk".  The best explanation I've found
of filk and its origins as in an article by Nick Smith in the
Equicon '86 program book.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Apr 86 08:12:11-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Etymology of a sort

FILKSONG, n. sing., from the ancient Erse, F'uilg Seaong, to make a
  typographical error and have it perpetuated.

FEN, n. plur., a marshy lowland area, such as the farming regions of
  East Anglia. Sing., FAN, a bladed device for generating an air
  current.

Laurence

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 86 1102-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #96
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cabell & Hambly & Purtill &
                        Tolkien (3 msgs) & Waters,
                Television - The Twilight Zone,
                Miscellaneous - The Nebula Awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Apr 86 11:59:44-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: High Fantasy

Another High Fantasy author that Dunsany fans might enjoy is James
Branch Cabell.  His best works, in my opinion, are _Jurgen_,
_Figures_Of_Earth_, _The_Silver_Stallion_ (? -- the sequel, more or
less, of _Figures_Of_Earth), and _The_High_Place_.  He's written a
lot, fourty-seven more books to be precise.  His command of language
is the equal of Dunsany and Vance.  His faults are the same, too.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 17:54:12 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly

Greetings and felicitations! If anyone here has read the
afore-mentioned book, could you tell me if I missed anything? It is
primarily a Star Trek book, but about half of it is set in the "Here
Come the Brides" universe. Spock also makes a reference to being
"shanghaied by a shipload of Hokas," who I just found out exist
also. Have I missed any other references?

Sarek

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Mr. Blore)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 28 Apr 86 19:51:09 GMT

cdrigney@uokvax.UUCP writes:
>Another funny book set at a sf convention is _Murdercon_, by
>Richard Purtill.

Murdercon is not funny, not science fiction, and not worth reading.
It is a very bad attempt by a science fiction writer to do a mystery
story.  Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have read any mystery
books since leaving the 6th grade, as the "mystery" in Murdercon is
as obvious as a "Scooby Doo" cartoon.

{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 29 Apr 86 20:22:26 GMT

see1@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Ellen Seebacher) writes:
>(Question for discussion: _aside_ from the fact that Tolkien as an
>author didn't work much with female characters, WHY do you think
>there were no female wizards?  Surely not inability to cope with
>the hazards of an uncivilized world: look at Galadriel, or even at
>her rather more cloistered granddaughter, both of whom weathered
>the storms of centuries rather well.)

This is pure speculation, but I don't believe there were many women
of the order of Maia who had any interest in Middle-Earth.  In fact,
there weren't many Maia *period* who had any interest in
Middle-Earth.  The only other possibility would have been Melian,
whose spirit left for Mandos after Thingol was killed.  By the time
the Third Age rolled around, the idea (I believe) was to get the
elder races *out* of Middle-Earth and back into the West.  I doubt
that it was deliberate of Tolkien not to have any female wizards
(certainly there are sterling examples of women and their deeds --
Luthien, Melian, Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, and so forth).  The lack
of female dwarves is noted though.

>>Somewhere else in the Silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of The
>>Rings of Power and the Third Age) it is suggested that Gandalf
>>might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is
>>highly unlikely.
>
>I'll look it up when I get home, but I find this so unlikely that
>I'd like a more specific reference, please.

I think it was in Unfinished Tales.  Wherever it was, there was a
long explanation of who the Wizards (Istari) were, and of what order
they were.  It was actually Faramir who related to Frodo Gandalf's
true name when they met in Ithilien.

------------------------------

From: gargoyle!congdon@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Congdon)
Subject: Re: Gandalf, his Ring, and Star Wars(?)
Date: 29 Apr 86 03:54:22 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes:
>My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
>anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life
>are mentioned - contenders.

   Gandalf is a peer of Sauron; a member of the Maia, which were
lesser spirits of the same order as the Valar. (I think that a
reasonable comparison would be that the Maiar are to the Valar as
angels are to arch-angels.) However, they obviously do not come in
full power. The reason that they came to Middle-Earth clad as Men
(and subject to all their physical frailities) goes back to the
First Age.
   The Valar had decided that their decision to bring the Elves to
Valinor was an incorrect one. More correctly, the method used did
not allow for much free choice as Orome, revealed in all his glory
was the one who asked them to come. Those who were not scared
(because they thought that Orome was actually an emissar of Morgoth)
went, for what creature could or would resist such a resplendent
being?  The Valar later decided that this coertion in Power was an
evil that they did not want to repeat. Therefore, the five Maiar who
were sent to Middle-Earth to combat Sauron had to be subject to such
things as fatigue, hunger and death. The Istari were supposed to
encourage the Children of Iluvatar to the good and not to despair;
they were not supposed to awe Elves, Men and Dwarves into
submission.  This was Gandalf's particular strength and was further
intensified by the Ring of Fire.
   What troubles me most about this is whether or not Gandalf would
have fallen with the other Four if he did not have the Ring. Saruman
despaired and fell, Radagast simply lost interest (his way of giving
up, or simply that being a Maia of Yavanna, beasts were all that
interested him), and the other two certainly failed and probably
fell also. Celebrimbor foresaw that Gandalf would need the Ring and
gave it to him saying ' and lest your task prove too great and
wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort' Any thoughts?

>P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ?
>True, one is set in the past, the other in the future and the Ring
>and the Force have almost opposite "properties". But in both cases
>we have a protagonist thrust, willy-nilly into a fine imbroglio.
>Gandalf - Kenobi , Saruman - Darth Vader , Sauron - Palpatine ,
>Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels. When I
>mentioned this to my room-mate, he disagreed strongly. Is my vision
>distorted ?

   I think that the parallels are somewhat indirect here. Tolkien's
inspiration lay more in Scandinavian myth, and, at least originally,
Lucas' inspiration was basically Arthurian, with Merlin & Kenobi,
Uthyr & Darth Vader, Arthur & Luke.  I realize that the comparison
here is only a little closer, but I believe that I remember Lucas
saying that Arthurian legend was very involved in the Star Wars
story from the beginning. Certainly, it has become less and less
like Arturian legend with every movie, but I attribute this to the
pressures of Hollywood.

Richard Congdon
Univ. of Chicago, Education Department
...ihnp4!gargoyle!paideia!{richard,root}

------------------------------

From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: The Istari
Date: 29 Apr 86 20:40:45 GMT

congdon@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Congdon) writes:
>   What troubles me most about this is whether or not Gandalf would
>have fallen with the other Four if he did not have the Ring.
>Saruman despaired and fell, Radagast simply lost interest (his way
>of giving up, or simply that being a Maia of Yavanna, beasts were
>all that interested him), and the other two certainly failed and
>probably fell also. Celebrimbor foresaw that Gandalf would need the
>Ring and gave it to him saying ' and lest your task prove too great
>and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort' Any
>thoughts?

Saruman did not despair the way, say, Denethor did.  Saruman's fault
was that he became ensnared in the devices of the Enemy.  He tries
to forge his own Ruling Ring, but fails.  In "Unfinished Tales", it
is mentioned that he led the other two Istari, called "The Blue
Wizards" into the East (beyond Mordor), where they were lost to
Middle-Earth.  He is jealous and fearful of Gandalf, for he felt
that Narya should have been given to him, as the head of the Istari.
He is a traitor to his purpose in coming to Middle-Earth and is
justly banished from Valinor upon his dissolution.

It is interesting that both Curumo (Saruman) and Olorin (Gandalf)
are Maiar of Aule, the "tinkerer" of Valinor, and that one falls but
the other does not.

Jeff Okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
..!ucbvax!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Apr 86 20:22:10-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Anderson, Kurland, and Waters

"The Probability Pad" by Tom Waters is the third book in his,
Kurland's, and Anderson's jokes on friends series.  "The Butterfly
Kid" was probably the best written.  It received a favorite son Hugo
nomination for Baycon ('69?).  Kurland's "The Unicorn GIrl" is
funnier, but more incoherent.  Water's book just isn't that good.

Together, Anderson and Kurland wrote "Ten Years to Doomsday" which
is pretty good.  All of these were published originally by Pyramid.

wz

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Save The Twilight Zone!
Date: 29 Apr 86 21:39:51 GMT

I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's program
director and a SF writer with friends in the industry) that CBS is
still debating the future of The Twilight Zone. TZ is off now, and
will appear in reruns, I've been told, during the summer season on
Thursdays at 10 PM EDT/PDT, opposite reruns of Hill Street Blues.

But TZ's fate for the fall season HANGS IN THE BALANCE. The networks
have historically paid significant attention to viewer letters
during these kind of decisions. Therefore:

IF YOU CARE ABOUT QUALITY TELEVISION, AND IF YOU CARE ABOUT KEEPING
GOOD SF AND GOOD DRAMA ON THE AIR, WRITE *TODAY* TO:

   CBS Programming Department
   CBS, Inc.
   51 West 52nd Street
   New York, NY 10019

and drop a copy to the program director of your local CBS affiliate.

Stay tuned for further details.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: qantel!lynx@caip.rutgers.edu (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207)
Subject: Nebulas: and the winners are ...
Date: 29 Apr 86 16:33:33 GMT

This weekend (April 26th) the Science Fiction Writers of America
held their 21st Annual Nebula Awards Banquet, at the Claremnont
Hotel in Berkeley.  The toastmaster was Robert Silverberg.

The Nebula Award

"The Nebula Awards are voted on, and presented by active members of
the Science Fiction Writers of America.  Founded in 1965 by Damon
Knight, the organization's first president, the SFWA began with a
charter membership of 78 writers; it now has over 800 members, among
them most of the leading writers of science fiction.

Lloyd Biggle, Jr., the SFWA's first Secretary-Treasurer, originally
proposed in 1965 that the organization publish an annual anthology
of the best stories of the year.  This notion, according to Damon
Knight in his introduction to _Nebula Award Stories: 1965_
(Doubleday, 1966), 'rapidly grew into an annual ballot of SFWA's
members to choose the best stories, and an annual Awards Banquet.'
The trophy was designed by Judith Ann Lawrence from a sketch made by
Kate Wilhelm; it is a block of lucite in which are embedded a spiral
nebula made of metallic glitter and a specimen of rock crystal.  The
trophies are handmade, and no two are exactly alike.

Since 1965, the Nebula Awards have been given each year for the best
novel, novella, novelette, and short story published during the
preceding year.  An anthology including the winning pieces of short
fiction and several runners-up is also published every year.  The
Nebula Awards Banquet, which takes place each spring, is held in
alternate years in New York City and on the West Coast; the banquets
are attended by many leading writers and editors and are preceded by
meetings and panel discussions.  This year, the nominated works, all
published during 1985, include books by both established writers and
promising newcomers.

The Grand Master Nebula Award is given to a living atuhor for a
lifetime's achievement in science fiction.  This award is given no
more than six times in a decade.  Nominations for the Grand Master
Award are made by the President of the SFWA and are then voted on by
the past presidents, the current officers, and the current Nebula
Awards Jury.  The Grand Masters, and the years in which they won are
Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson (1975), Clifford D. Simak
(1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber (1981), and Andre
Norton (1983)." (*)

This years nominees, and winners are (winners listed first):

For Novel:

   Ender's Game
        by Orson Scott Card  (Tor Books)

   Blood Music
        by Greg Bear  (Arbor House)
   Dinner at Deviant's Palace
        by Tim Powers  (Ace Books)
   Helliconia Winter
        by Brian W. Aldiss  (Atheneum)
   The Postman
        by David Brin  (Bantam Spectra Books)
   The Remaking of Sigmund Freud
        by Barry N. Malzberg  (Del Rey)
   Schismatrix
        by Bruce Sterling  (arbor House)

For Novella:

   "Sailing to Byzantium"
        by Robert Silverberg
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, February 1985)

   "24 Views of Mount Fuji"
        by Roger Zelazny
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Ficiton Magazine, July 1985)
   "The Gorgon Field"
        by Kate Wilhelm
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Ficiton Magazine, August 1985)
   "Green Days in Brunei"
        by Bruce Sterling
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, October 1985)
   "Green Mars"
        by Kim Stanley Robinson
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, September 1985)
   "The Only Neat Thing To Do"
        by James Tiptree, Jr.
        (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, October 1985)

For Novelette:

   "Portraits of His Children"
        by George R.R. Martin
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, Novemeber 1985)

   "Dogfight"
        by Michael Swanwick and William Gibson
        (Omni, July 1985)
   "The Fringe"
        by Orson Scott Card
        (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, October 1985)
   "A Gift from the Graylanders"
        by Michael Bishop
        (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, September 1985)
   "The Jaguar Hunter"
        by Lucius Shepard
        (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, May 1985)
   "Paladin of the Lost Hour"
        by Harlan Ellison
        (Universe 15, Doubleday; The Twilight Zone Magazine,
         December 1985)
   "Rockabye Baby"
        by S.C. Sykes
        (Analog, Mid-December, 1985)

For Short Story:

   "Out of All Them Bright Stars"
        by Nancy Kress
        (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, March 1985)

   "Flying Saucer Rock and Roll"
        by Howard Waldrop
        (Omni, January 1985)
   "The Gods of Mars"
        by Gardner Dozois, Jack Dann, and Michael Swanwick
        (Omni, March 1985)
   "Heirs of the Perisphere"
        by Howard Waldrop
        (Playboy, July 1985)
   "Hong's Bluff"
        by William F. Wu
        (Omni, March 1985)
   "More Than the Sum of His Parts"
        by Joe Haldeman
        (Playboy, May 1985)
   "Paper Dragons"
        by James P. Blaylock
        (Imaginary Lands, Ace Books)
   "Snow"
        by John Crowley
        (Omni, November 1985)

Grand Master:

        Arthur C. Clarke

(*) quoted without permission from Vol 20, No 1, Spring 1986
Bulletin of the Science Fiction Writers of America.

D.N. Lynx Crowe
{dual, hplabs, lll-crg, ptsfa}!qantel!lynx

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 May 86 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #97
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 May 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:

               Books - Bailey & Cherryh & Moorcock &
                       Stasheff & Tolkien (5 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Copyrights & Book Dealers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 86 10:35:30 EDT
From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) <DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Review of the Zen Gun

I saw a mention of THE ZEN GUN by Barrington Bailey in issue 87 of
SF-L.  I thought that I'd write this and warn people away from this
book.

Micro Review:
      !!YUCK!!

Mini Review:
      On the proverbial -4 to +4 scale, this one gets a -4.  I found
the book to be predictable, repetitive and in some cases even
sadistic.  The writing style is slow, and the characters one
dimensional.

*slight spoiler follows, but the book isn't good enough to read
anyway*

   About a month ago, I picked this book up and started readng it.
The story is set in a crumbling galactic empire.  Biological
engineering has advanced to where humans have cross bred with
animals for centuries.  Pure humans still occupy the highest places
in society, but there are fewer and fewer pure humans.

   The story opens with a (yes, you guessed it) an EVIL MAD
SCIENTIST doing sadistic things to the animals he has given
intelligence.  One of these animals escapes and finds an old armory,
where he picks up, the ZEN GUN.  Well, the story rapidly
deteriorates from here.  The motto of the ZEN GUN is 'I can maim,
and I can kill, I can be anything you want' or words to that effect.
See, the gun has a sort of intelligence of its own.

   Basically, the escaped animal uses this gun to first kill the mad
scientist, and in one horribly sadistic scene, to torture for it's
own pleasure.  Of course, there are other elements to the plot, and
the author has used the humans-mixed-with-animals as an excuse to
give us one dimensional characters (pig descendants that love being
officious, etc.)

   In summation, I didn't like the book.  Not only didn't I like it,
I was offended by it, and this is the first time that's happened to
me.  I kept trying to see it as a parody in an effort to give it
some credit, and in a minor sense, it does parody some of the space
operas, but it does this *very* clumsily.

Joe Herman
DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU

------------------------------

From: stuart@rochester.ARPA
Subject: C.J. Cherryh portrait?
Date: 28 Apr 86 14:55:23 GMT

From: Stuart Friedberg  <stuart>

Does anyone know if the picture on the cover of the paperback
(only?)  edition of C.J. Cherryh's collection of stories "Visible
Light" is a portrait of the author?

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@rochester

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!cccallan@caip.rutgers.edu (Allan McKillop)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 29 Apr 86 15:39:29 GMT

> Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect
> with everything else he's written?  I seem to recall, although I
> can't think quite where, my collection being 600 miles away, that
> the Eternal Champion books connected to the Jerry
> Cornelius/Dancers at the End of time books.

He has also written a book called The Warhound and the World's Pain
that had absolutely nothing to the eternal champion.  It is also (to
me) a questionable point whether his Warlord of the Air series has
anything to do with the Eternal Champion.  In the three book set
(The Warlord of the Air, The Land Leviathan (sp?) and The Stainless
Steel Tsar) he never even mentions the Eternal Champion, but in one
of the corum books, Jhary mentions that Bastable (the protagonist in
the Warlord or the Air series) is an incarnation of Corum.  Also, in
Elric at the End of Time (ick!  I hate to consider that an Elric
book) everything comes together.

Allan McKillop
...{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccallan    (UUCP)
...ucdavis!deneb!cccallan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (ARPA)

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Mini-review of new Warlock book (with mini-spoilers!)
Date: 29 Apr 86 18:37:28 GMT

> From: <mooremj@eglin-vax>
>      THE WARLOCK ENRAGED                 0

I dunno (just to quibble), I'd rate ENRAGED at _least_ a two -- if
only for the Father Vidicon story.  (Besides, I have a long standing
fondness for fat friars.)

Barb

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: Gandalf (and Star Wars)
Date: 30 Apr 86 03:39:56 GMT

cvl!bhaskar writes:
>P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ?
>True, one is set in the past, the other in the future

I hadn't thought of that before!  Star Wars is set in the past, of
course (this is announced before the title, even), but it never
occurred to me that Middle Earth is in the future.  Now that I think
about it, it's so obvious -- they have really advanced technology,
high enough to be indistinguishable from magic (a la Clarke), and
the multiple intelligent races must be mutated descendants of
humans.  And here I've been saying all along that LotR is fantasy
and not SF!  :-)

>Gandalf - Kenobi, Saruman - Darth Vader, Sauron - Palpatine, Frodo
>- Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels.

I haven't read LotR*, but in Star Wars OB1 says "You cannot win,
Darth...  If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than
you can imagine!"  (approximate quote).  I understand something
similar converted Gandalf into Gandalf-The-White (what a racist
book! :-) ), no?

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)
*I don't like fantasy.  I feel that anybody can write fiction if he
gets to make up his own rules.  I like hard SF, with premises that
are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking.  I did read
_The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed.  Please don't flame me for
my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that Tolkien is
the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Btw, I'm not claiming that
Star Wars is all that hot either.

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: Wizards (and myths): {really Star Wars}
Date: 30 Apr 86 01:01:56 GMT

> P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ?

Not really, other than a basic good vs evil plot. Star Wars does
have many similarities to a movie by Akiro Kurasawa -- The Samuri
Triology, I think.

steve anich

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 29 Apr 86 18:24:12 GMT

The Wizards are a separate class of beings.  No, it is not mentioned
in The Hobbit (note singular) or The Lord of the Rings, but in the
Simarilian.  This book is only for afficionados of Middle Earth (or
any other) 'history' and the backgrounds of mythical universes.  If
you're looking for good _stories_ (cohesive plot, et al), avoid it.
It is more a series of vignettes.  I enjoyed it immensely (but any
of my friends will guarantee that I'm weird).

As for parallels between Star Wars and LotR, remember, the latter
was written in 1940 and has flavored most (if not all) Fantasy that
followed.  Also, the epic fantasy generally has a formula: BIG super
NASTY, equally Powerful Good Guy, Nobody who's really Somebody
thrust onto a quest usually to find some sort of powerful Talisman
and then face off the Nasty.  Also, there is little in Star Wars
that is truly original -- Lucas is a master of mimickry (and I love
his movies for it).  (Believe me, I can name the WWII movies he's
lifted his space-battles from -- some nearly verbatum.)  So, the
similarities are not so much coincidental or design, but genre.

Barb

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 29 Apr 86 19:17:24 GMT

> Robert ........'s _Guide to Middle Earth_.
         ^Foster^  (Ballantine, first copyright 1971)

> (Question for discussion: _aside_ from the fact that Tolkien as an
> author didn't work much with female characters, WHY do you think
> there were no female wizards?  Surely not inability to cope with
> the hazards of an uncivilized world: look at Galadriel, or even at
> her rather more cloistered granddaughter, both of whom weathered
> the storms of centuries rather well.)

considering the real-time era the books were written in, be glad you
got shield maiden eowyn.  galadriel and arwen have arthurian
acceptability (and, as was pointed out, eowyn has her roots in the
valkyrie brunhilde) (not to mention one macduff -- "what's he, that
was not born of woman?").  i suppose jrrt could have thrown in a
witch or two -- but i don't recall witches in middle earth -- the
powerful elf women must suffice.  (and i think they do a pretty good
job.)  it's surprising that lotr hasn't suffered more dating.

>>somewhere else in the silmarillion (maybe in the chapter of the
>>rings of power and the third age) it is suggested that gandalf
>>might have been Manwe (King of the Valar) in disguise, but that is
>>highly unlikely.

To Quote Foster (Guide to Middle Earth) -- long:

GANDALF One of the Istari, as Gandalf the Grey the second most
powerful of the Order.  Gandalf can be said to have been the person
most responsible for the victory of the West and the downfall of
Sauron in the Third Age; he labored ceaselessly and ever-faithfully
for two thousand years towards that goal, and by his foresight built
up many powers to oppose Sauron in the final struggle.
     On his arrival in Middle-earth about TA 1000, Cirdan gave him
Narya, one of the Three Rings.  Gandalf had many adventures and
trials during the Third Age....
     Gandalf looked like a grey-cloaked, grey-haired (after his
resurrection, his hair and cloak were white) bent old man, and
passed easily for a meddlesome old conjuror; at times, however, he
revealed his true majesty and power.  Prior to his fight with the
Balrog, it seems that he was mortal, and was vulnerable to both
weapons and "magical" force, but as Gandalf the White no weapon
could touch on him, and his power over the Unseen was greatly
increased.
     Gandalf travelled mostly in the West, and had no permanent
home.  Of all the Istari, he was the closest to the Eldar, and the
only Wizard who truly cared about things of seemingly small value
like Hobbits and trees.  He was a great master of lore and (perhaps
due to Narya) of fire.  Gandalf was a friend and teacher to Aragorn
seemingly above all other Men, and the two helped each other
greatly....
     "Gandalf" was the name given him by the Men of the North.  He
was called Mithrandir by the Elves; the Westron forms Grey Wanderer
and Grey Pilgrim [any relation to Odin/Wotan here???] were also
used.  He was called Tharkun by the Dwarves, Incanus by the
Haradrim, Gandalf Greyhame by the Rohirrim, and at various times
Stormcrow (by Theoden), Lathspell (by Grima) and the Grey Fool (by
Denethor II, who disliked him because of his friendship with
Thorongil, the rival of his youth).  He was also known as the Enemy
of Sauron and (during the WR) the White Rider.  His real name, given
him in Valinor in his youth, was Olorin.

Also, one poster mentioned concern about the dwarves and Bilbo (in
The Hobbit) being given ponies, while Gandalf was always given a
horse.  Dwarves and Hobbits are too short to comfortably ride
horses, and Gandalf is rather too tall to manage a pony.  So you
could say it _is_ a circumstance of stature >grin!<.

Barb

------------------------------

From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 29 Apr 86 18:21:23 GMT

First of all, to the easy answers -- it was Robert Foster's "Guide
to Middle-Earth," now supplanted by the "Complete Guide" etc.  And
No, Gandalf was certainly **not** Manwe.

In "Unfinished Tales," now available (at last) in large sized
paperback, Tolkien's short essay "On the Istari" is printed, along
with some scattered notes on the subject, for the first time.
Highly recommended reading to anyone interested in the background.
(There is also an essay on the Woses -- Ghan- Buri-Ghan's people, or
the Druadan, which greatly affects one's understanding of LOTR.  As,
in fact, does most of UT -- it even explains Queen Beruthiel's cats.
But I digress.)

The essay tells how it was decided in Valinor to send the Istari
forth, and how they were chosen.  The two "missing" Istari are
explained, a little, but no names are given.  They were both Blue in
color, went East (apparently their mission, at least as they
perceived it, was out there) and were never heard from again in the
West of Middle-Earth.  Saruman *may* have gone with them and *may*
have known something about what happened to them if he did.

Saruman (Curunir) was chosen by the Valar to be the leader of the
Istari, but one Vala (I forget which, possibly Nienna) made a
cryptic remark implying that Olorin (Gandalf) would be the better
choice and must eventually lead.

As to why there were no female Istari -- good question.  Remember
the time Tolkien wrote in, and, even more, the time in which he grew
up.  Then read the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT and tell me
if you don't think he was remarkably NON-sexist for a Catholic of
his times.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

From: bentley!kwh@caip.rutgers.edu (KW Heuer)
Subject: Re: Character Copyright
Date: 30 Apr 86 04:14:29 GMT

utcsri!tom (Robert J. Sawyer) writes:
>Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova won a plagerism suit against ABC TV,
>claiming that the idea of a crusty street cop partnered with a
>robot was original to them ...

"For the record, Harlan Ellison and I won our suit against ABC,
Paramount, et al., because, I believe, the jury found that the
defendants had taken substantial amounts of our words -- a couple of
full scripts, reams of background material, and outlines of plots --
and incorporated them into their own production.  It wasn't merely
the _idea_ of a robot cop that was in question; it was the details
of our work.  Indeed, the defendants based their case on the concept
that ideas cannot be plagiarized (and strongly implied that all
science fiction ideas are ripped off from other sources!).  But the
jury found that there was much more to the matter than simply the
basic idea of `Brillo.'"

Ben Bova, quoted from a letter in Analog, Nov 1982.

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)
(Do you know how hard it is to find a particular *letter* in back
issues?!)

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Paperback release dates
Date: 29 Apr 86 18:47:31 GMT

> From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
> New books often come in and sell out of bookstores very quickly,
> and most stores are poor about reordering these books.  This
> especially goes for the chain stores which, as they get more and
> more computerized, they also get increasingly less flexible.
> (Employees can't get away with ordering books they know will sell
> in the face of company policy, as the main office will catch them
> at it.)

Which means we should go out of our way to support the smaller,
specialty bookstores.  You may not think your $5 book amounts to
much, but those $5 add up really fast (take it from someone with a
$50-$100 book bill each month).  I hate to see the impersonality of
the chains take over -- especially when my favorite small bookstore
will order ANYTHING currently in print for me with no surcharge.
Besides, it's awful nice to walk in and say to the store owner "Hi,
Kevin, what's good?" and get a Real answer.

Sorry to get on a soapbox about this, but I've done a LOT of book
shopping through the years, and my vote goes to the little guys.
Let's support them -- they deserve it.

Barb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 May 86 1020-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #98
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 May 1986      Volume 11 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Brust & Holdstock &
                   Leiber (2 msgs) & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                   Tolkien (6 msgs) & Wolfe & Funny SF
           Miscellaneous - Publisher's Tricks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 08:46 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Asimov's decendants

Leigh Ann noted that Dr. Asimov only has a daughter and wonders how
the family name could get carried on this way so that one of Dr. A's
decendants could be mentioned in "Duck Dodgers in the 25th and a
Half Century".

Well, there she goes being sexist (unknowingly, mind you).  Couldn't
a woman of the 80's take her own name and pass it on?  And what if
she were (heaven forbib!) an unwed mother?  Please, I mean no slur
on her; I am just trying to make all the possibilities clear.  After
all, she is the daughter of one of the world's most notably
vainglorious authors.  Isn't it possible that they would want the
Asimov name to flourish?  And what about a hyphenated name?  There
are endless possibilities.  Let's not just fall back on stereotypes,
ok Leigh Ann Oster?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 17:28:38 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: David Asimov

David is Isaac's son.

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: JHEREG by Steven Brust
Date: 27 Apr 86 15:38:44 GMT

>From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
>> The story starts out very uneven. In the first few pages we meet
>> Vlad as a boy and learn how he "imprinted" the jhereg. Then, with
>> no explanation, he is an adult, head of a successful assassin's
>> syndicate.  I presume that a previous book by the author covers
>> the intervening years, but there's no mention of this in the
>> story.
>
>I disagree. Brust built up enough background to give you some
>context on the society and the characters, and then jumped into the
>fray. In both Jhereg and Yendi he flashes back into history when he
>needs to make a point or clarify something.  If he'd stopped and
>taken the time to write the whole life of Vlad, he would have ended
>up with a 12 volume book, most of it probably boring...

I'd quite like to see more about the early life of Vlad, and I hope
that Brust writes some of it.  And I can't imagine him writing
anything boring.  I've read the first 3 books (Jhereg, Yendi and To
Reign in Hell) and found them splendid pieces of writing.  I can't
wait to get hold of Brokedown Palace...

Kay.
... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: Mythago Wood
Date: 27 Apr 86 17:24:54 GMT

>From: Roz <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
>I've meant to write about this book ever since the topic of typos
>came up.  I got my copy from the Science Fiction Book Club.  I
>ALWAYS read the dust jacket of the book before reading the book
>itself.  Mythago Wood has two brothers in it; the jacket talks
>about the story in terms of the two brothers and their relationship
>to good and evil.  My dust jacket consistently referred to one
>brother as "good" and the other as "bad"; as a result when I read
>the book I kept waiting for the brothers to do a personality swap!
>It never happened...that's the biggest typo I've ever seen!  I
>enjoyed the book, but I had more unanswered questions when I was
>done than when I started.

Just shows that you can't judge a book by the jacket it wears!
Anyhow, a *definite* 4 for Mythago Wood: Robert Holdstock has
surpassed himself with this one...  Saying that I read it without
putting it down once isn't that big a statement (from me, anyway):
saying that I read it without stopping for a coffee, a cigarette, or
any other purpose, natural or unnatural, is!

I'm sorry to hear it's hard to get hold of; it richly deserves to be
read.  And what's wrong with unanswered questions?...

Kay.
... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay

------------------------------

From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain)
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber
Date: 30 Apr 86 01:39:34 GMT

     Last time I heard, Fritz Leiber was still alive and living in
San Fransisco, although I admit my information is about two years
out of date.

     I talked with him awhile back however, and he didn't mention
anymore Fafhrd/Grey Mouser stories as at that time he was in poor
health and wasn't writing. However you've prompted me to check, as
Fritz and I have a mutual friend in common, which is how I met him
in the first place. If anyone knows about Fritz Leiber, it's him, as
they use to have dinner together at least once a week.

     I'll check with him and keep everyone posted......

Glenn
thain@decwrl
P.S. - If anyone else has info, I'm sure Steve and I would be
interested, thanks alot.....Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Apr 86 11:07:08-EDT
From: BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Leiber dead?

No way!! he has a column in Locus.

And if he doesn't damn well get Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser out of
that damned island I'm going to do it for him after he dies!
(indirect threat there, if any of you ever have any contact with him
:-)

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are my favorite fictional characters, and
leaving them in effective wedlock on Rime Isle is cruel and unusual
punishment -- the Lords of Necessity will have something to say
about that!

------------------------------

From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 29 Apr 86 06:41:58 GMT

>I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_
>about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group
>Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything else
>he's written.  I think it's now out of print.  Small loss.
>
>Ellen

Unfortunately not true.  Moorcock's band in the book, The Deep Fix,
has shown up in several of the other books.  I believe they even
existed in the (Moorcock, I know, would hate me for using this word
but I have to) real world.  Has anyone ever seen/heard it?

I disagree about the merits of the book, though; I thought it was
hysterically funny myself.

I understand that he didn't really write the book--that the idea was
his but that Butterworth (credited with Moorcock on the book)
actually did all the writing.

Anyhow, my question still stands.

Soren Petersen

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 1986  13:12 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: Brown%CSNET-RELAY@EDDIE.MIT.EDU, David
To: D%CSNET-RELAY@EDDIE.MIT.EDU,
To:       <zaphod%wwu.csnet%CSNET-RELAY@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Eternal Champion

John Daker

  The Eternal Champion
  Phoenix in Obsidian (also called The Silver Warriors)

Elric of Melnibone

  Elric of Melnibone
  Sailor on the Seas of Fate
  Wierd of the White Wolf
  Vanishing Tower
  Bane of the Black Sword
  Stormbringer

Dorian Hawkmoon (aka Runestaff Cycle)

  Jewel in the Skull
  Mad God's Amulet
  Sword of the Dawn
  The Runestaff

Prince Corum

  Knight of the Swords
  Queen of the Swords
  King of the Swords
  Oak and the Ram
  Bull and the Spear
  Sword and the Stallion

Castle Brass (read these last)

  Count Brass
  Champion of Garathorm
  Quest for Tanelorn

------------------------------

From: sah@ukc.ac.uk (S.A.Hill)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 28 Apr 86 11:07:12 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes:
>I am now reading Tolkien's "The Hobbits",

"The Hobbit" please.

>My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
>anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ?

Gandalf (Olorin, Mithrandir, ...) was one of the Istari (or
Wizards). They appeared in the west of Middle Earth about the time
that Sauron starting making trouble. This gives us a clue as to
their origin and is about all you can glean from the trilogy.
Gandalf was asked who he was and replied with a list of his names
ending (from memory in The Two Towers I think)

"... Olorin in the west in my youth that is forgotten, to the east I
go not."

So it is clear that he came from Valinor.

If you read "The Simarillion" and "Unfinished Tales", it becomes
clear that Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the two blue wizards were
in fact Maia - beings of an angelic/diabolic nature. Indeed Sauron
and the Balrog were of the same race. The Maia and the Valar (whom
men have often called gods) came into Ea (the world) at its
creation. Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter were probably Maia as
well. (See "A Tolkien Bestiary").

>P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels ?

Not really.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #90
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 09:42:39 -0500
From: Bill Dowling <wad@mitre-bedford.ARPA>

> My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
> anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of
> life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into
> which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ?

   To my recollection, Gandalf is never directly identified as being
a human, elf, hobbit or whatever.  There is a strong indication
however that Gandalf was an elf since he possessed one of the three
elven rings of power.  This fact is made clear in the final chapter
of The Return of the King.  His appearance should not be considered
any indication of his true race because it was well within his
ability, partly due to his ring, to assume almost any appearance.
He never really takes on drastically different forms but after his
incident in Moria with the balrog he takes on his bright white form.
He also on occasion takes on an enlarged form in order to intimidate
a particular character.

        There is also a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring in
which Frodo finds himself in Lorien where he encounters Galadriel.
Frodo offers to give up the One Ring to her in an effort to end his
quest.  During this encounter, Galadriel's true form, that of an
ancient elven woman, is revealed to Frodo.  Galadriel was also in
possession of one of the three elven rings of power (Elrond
possessed the third), and it was this ring that allowed her to
maintain her youthful appearance.  I assume Gandalf used his ring in
a similar manner except he chose an appearance more suited to his
style and needs.  These random bits of information seem to account
for Gandalf's timeless appearance.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 09:30 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Gandalf's race

From what I remember of the Silmarillion and Tolkein's Lost Tales,
Gandalf and the other Wizards were minor gods sent by Vanye, the
chief god.  They took on human form and entered Middle-Earth to
guide the Elves and Humans as councillors.  They were essentially
immortal, but were subject to some human frailties.  For example,
Saruman succombed to the lust for power.

Brett Slocum --(Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Victoria Rosly D'ull)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language
Subject: trivia)
Date: 29 Apr 86 00:48:56 GMT

> The Elves of the Greenwood did indeed have their own dialect; but
> Legalos came from a well-educated family.  His father must have
> known more Quenya than I: `legalos' is supposed to mean
> `greenleaf', but it certainly does not mean that in Sindarin, and
> I guess that it is Quenya (it sounds right at any rate).

Actually, his name was Legolas, which does indeed mean "greenleaf"
in Quenya (`Lego'="green" + `las, lasse'="leaf").  The
_Silmarillion_ has a glossary of various Elvish-name roots in one of
the appendices; I think both of these are in there.

If anyone is interested in suchlike lore, I'd also recommend a book
by Ruth Noel (I think), called _The_Languages_of_Middle-Earth_.  It
covers several Elvish tongues in various detail, and Tolkien's other
languages as well, and then there's the section with the
translations of all the quotes....

Vicka d'Ull @ Johns Hopkins

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 08:23 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Gandalf
Cc: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu (Bhaskar)

Actually, there are a lot of questions raised in The Hobbit and LotR
that are not answered until the Silmarilion, if then.  I believe
that Gandalf's appearance was that of a Man, but, in reality, the
Wizards were Ainur (Tolkien's mythology equivalent of angels or
saints.  Sauron was one, as well, and, I believe, the Balrogs) so
had the power to appear as they wished.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 08:29 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Tolkien and Star Wars
Cc: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu (Bhaskar)

Yes, I think the parallels are definitely there, but that's because
both are based on the recurring themes of myth, or Jung's
archetypes, if you prefer.  The Hero, the Magician, the Monster, the
Quest, etc.  Look to Beowulf and King Arthur myths for other
examples.  They all fit into what a prof of mine called the Type A
myth.

Although my favorite is the Type B myth examplified by the oldest
known myth, Gilgamesh, as well as such tv shows as Star Trek and
Remington Steele.

Lisa

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: BotNS words
Date: 27 Apr 86 16:12:58 GMT

>From: roberts%forty2.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
> Can anyone enlighten me on the meaning/derivation of the words
> Wolfe uses for Urth's currency. One in particular I'd like to find
> out more about is "orichalk".

[for nlang readers, "Wolfe" is Gene Wolfe, who has written (among
other works) _The_Book_of_the_New_Sun_, which is set in a place
named Urth.  If you like SF as part of your literary diet, I'd
recommend it]

ORICHALC: also in Latin form ORICHALCUM; from Greek orikhalkon,
        literally "mountain-copper".  In later Latin made into
        AURICHALCUM, as if "golden-copper".  Some yellow ore or
        alloy of copper, highly prized by the ancients; perhaps
        brass.

        [Shorter Oxford Dictionary]

Kay.
... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 27 Apr 86 15:31:31 GMT

(Larry Wake) lkw@csun.UUCP writes:
>> Try the following:
>>      Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison
>        ^^^^
>The title is BIL THE GALACTIC HERO, and it was one of the funniest
>sf books I'd ever read...is it still in print?  I read it back in
>early hiskool days, and haven't been able to find a copy since.

Actually, it *is* "Bill the Galactic Hero", at least according to
the label on the BBC Enterprises cassette which is lying by my
terminal...

Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison, told by Kerry Shale
Abridged and produced by Paul Mayhew-Archer
Music by the BBC Radiophonic Workshop
ZCM 532 (stereo, Dolby)

As for funnies: try PROSTHO PLUS by Piers Anthony... a zany story
about a prosthodontist who becomes the property of aliens.  It
*still* makes me roll about on the floor even after the zillionth
reading.

Kay.
... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 10:46:30 pdt
From: Doug Faunt <spar!faunt@decwrl.DEC.COM>
Cc: yduj@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Publisher's dirty tricks

My favorite SF bookstore, The Other Change Of Hobbit, in Berkeley,
puts up "consumer notes" in cases like this, and would love to pass
on flames about such things.

...!ihnp4!{hplabs|decwrl}!spar!faunt    faunt@sri-kl.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 May 86 1052-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brin & Leiber & Sturgeon &
                         Tolkien (5 msgs) & Wilson,
                 Miscellaneous - Slang

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bakerst!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White)
Subject: David Brin's book _THE POSTMAN_
Date: 29 Apr 86 23:20:58 GMT

I've been trying to find David Brin's book _THE POSTMAN_, but have
been unable to find it in the various bookstores in the area.  I've
noticed that it is nominated for a HUGO award for best novel, so
evidentally there are some people out there that have read it.  Is
the book out in the trade, or are people reading the galley proofs
of the book?  I'm a Brin fan after reading _STARTIDE RISING_, so any
help finding _THE POSTMAN_ would be greatly appreciated!

Bob White
Mail: 5123 Ramillie Run           Usenet:  ihnp4!kitty!bakerst!bob
      Winston-Salem, NC  27106     Phone: (919) 924-0975

------------------------------

From: puff!anich@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Anich)
Subject: Re: Leiber dead?
Date: 30 Apr 86 22:43:15 GMT

> And if he doesn't damn well get Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser out of
> that damned island I'm going to do it for him after he dies!
> (indirect threat there, if any of you ever have any contact with
> him :-)
>
> Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are my favorite fictional characters,
> and leaving them in effective wedlock on Rime Isle is cruel and
> unusual punishment -- the Lords of Necessity will have something
> to say about that!

I have read 2 short stories that take place after the "Swords and
Ice Magic" book. Each focased on a different person(Fafhrd or the
Grey Mouser). The were in a Leiber short story collection(sorry, I
don't remember the name).

steve anich

------------------------------

From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Funny F & FS
Date: 29 Apr 86 21:43:47 GMT

> I want to add a story (I think by Sturgeon) that sticks in my
> mind: "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff," collected in a
> Boucher two volume classics collection the name of which I have
> forgotten.

This is, indeed, by Theodore Sturgeon. It can also be found in a
collection "The Joyous Invasions" with two of his other stories -
"To Marry Medusa" and "The Comedian's Children"

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Apr 86 15:00:02-EDT
From: Scott Schneider
Subject: LOTR & Star Wars

> P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels?

I'd have to agree with your roommate. For starters:

1) The nature of the wars in the two stories are vastly different.
The fight in LOTR is against the encroachment of an ancient evil
that threatens to uproot the status quo, while STAR WARS concerns
itself with a rebellion.

2) Frodo's quest remains constant throughout the tale: to destroy
the ring.  Luke, on the other hand, has many different quests which
constantly change through the course of the story: to rescue the
Princess, to destroy the Death Star, to seek out Yoda, etc.

3) This difference is reflected in the geography of their voyages.
Frodo's is comparatively straight -- he goes to Mordor and then
back; while Luke and company continually travel to and fro, often
returning to the site of a previous adventure.

3) Luke grows to be a warrior who confronts the enemy directly.
Frodo does not.

4) Frodo's family, outside of Uncle Bilbo, is of minimal importance
to the story.  Luke's family is key to the action of the story.
(For example, his father is the enemy.)

5) LOTR principle source material is mythic, primarily Norse.  The
main inspiration for STAR WARS, as well as an important influence on
its style, is Pop Culture, primarily Hollywood (a very different
type of mythology). Tolkien was a scholar of the written language,
while George Lucas is oriented towards a visual language.

I could go on like this for a while, but I think my point is clear.
The similarities between the two are no more than you would expect
to find in the comparison of *any* two epic tales, while the
structural differences are vast.

    May the force be with you and all your hobbits be good ones.

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 29 Apr 86 17:42:54 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes:
>My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
>anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of life
>are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into which
>category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ?

Yes, and rather a mysterious one.  (My impression is that they
looked like full-size humans or elves.  I think of Gandalf as being
tall, bony, gray-haired.)  In the appendices at the end of volume
III you will find that the Wizards arrived in Middle Earth some
three thousand years before the events in LOTR.  They did not age
appreciably during that time, as far as we can tell (unfortunately,
no photographs have survived).

Somewhere outside the text of LOTR, Tolkien said that he regarded
the Wizards as Angels who agreed to become incarnate.  (Since this
is fiction, we can accept that, even if we don't believe in Angels
in our own universe.)  Tolkien did not put this in LOTR, because he
systematically avoided discussing religion there (either his own or
that of the characters).  If it makes Gandalf seem a puzzling and
inexplicable figure, well the people around Gandalf probably thought
so too.

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth [LONG]
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 14:28:08 PDT

Of Gandalf the Istar
In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as an Istari, one of five
Wizards who appeared in Middle Earth after the Fall of Numenor, sent
from beyond the sundering seas to aid Middle Earth in its struggle
against Sauron.  Saruman is "the head of the order" which together
with Elrond and Galadriel formed the White Council to fight the
Necromancer.  The only other named Istari is Radagast the brown, an
expert on plants and animals.

The Elvish tales of the creation of the world recorded in "The
Silmarillion" explain that Iluvatar (ie, God) together with the
Valar and Mayar (two orders of angels) created the world.  Some of
these divine beings chose to live on it; but the chief Vala,
Morgoth, turned against Iluvatar and corrupted the earth.  The Vala
Lorien, a healer, had a Maya follower named Olorin.  In LotR, Elrond
says that one of Gandalf's names is Olorin; notes in "The
Silmarillion" identify Olorin with Gandalf, which makes him, and
presumably the other Istari, Mayar sent by the Valar to Middle
Earth.  Sauron is also a Maya, one of Morgoth's subordinates; he
escaped the fall of Morgoth's fortress Thangorabadrim during the
destruction of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, when Morgoth
was banished from Middle Earth by a coalition of Elves, Men and
Valar.  The only other Maya mentioned at length is Melian, the
mother of Luthien Tinuviel, Aragorn's ancesstress.

Of the other Races of Middle Earth
Besides the races of Valar and Mayar, which were divine beings,
Iluvatar created immortal Elves and mortal Men.  Elves never leave
Middle Earth; if they are killed they enter the Halls of the Vala
Mandos for a time, then reappear.  Men "pass beyond the circles of
the world" at death.  The Dwarves were the creation of Aule, a Vala
whose primary care was the minerals and mountains; but he couldn't
make them do any more than echo his own thoughts.  In creating a
sentient race, he trespassed on Iluvatar's territory; when
confronted by Iluvatar he reluctantly agreed to give up the dwarves
to destruction.  Iluvatar instead blessed them and gave them truly
independent existence.  Morgoth echoed Aule's sin, but his creatures
were all derivative: Orcs from Elves and Men, Trolls from Dwarves,
the Balrogs from Valar; dragons were a mix of various animals.  Ents
were probably the creation of Yavanna, Aule's consort and mistress
of trees.  Tolkien does not say who was responsible for the creation
of hobbits.

Sources: LotR and the Hobbit, of course; "The Silmarillion",
"Unfinished Tales", "The Book of Lost Tales" (in two volumes);
various dictionaries for terms from Middle Earth; Tolkien's Letters
and Biography (H. Carpenter).

Of LotR and Star Wars
First off, you are wrong: both stories are set in the past.  Tolkien
says of Bilbo that he is smoking his pipe on a day in the Morning of
the World; the preface to Star Wars IV set it "A long time ago, in a
galaxy far far away....".  The similarities between the two are the
result of sharing the same typical story genre, the innocent fool
who becomes a hero, aided by wisdom incarnate in an old man (or
woman) and some special powers.  But the cosmology of Middle Earth
differs considerably from that of Star Wars.  Tolkien's inspiration
for the way his world works is largely Judeo- Christian, with
medieval elements; a lot of the details come from the northern
European legends (the names of the dwarves, and even Gandalf, are
straight out of the Elder Edda; a lot of the hobbit's names --
Froda, Meriadoc, Isengrim -- are from Merovingian French; the
Roharrim have Anglo-Saxon roots).  Lucas's Star Wars universe has a
world order like Zen: the Force is an impersonal and neutral power
which men can learn to use either for good or evil.  There are no
gods or supernatural creatures; rather, anyone who can use the Force
can tap into special talents which are extensions of the natural
world.  As for details in the plot, personally, I find Star Wars
resembles the Arthurian sagas. [Try Luke = Arthur, Darth Vader =
Uther Pendragon; Leia Organa = Morgan le Fay; Obi Wan Kenobi =
Merlin; Han = Lancelot, the flawed knight; Uncle Owen = Sir Ector
Demaris.]

By the way, I disagree with Elaine Richards that medievalism can get
pretty dry.  Medieval intellectual culture was a synthetic one,
driven by the desire to create a holistic world view in which all
natural science, religion, philosophy, social institutions and
practical knowledge were interconnected parts of a coherent system.
The created cosmologies of Tolkien and Lucas are in that tradition
and draw heavily on it.  But it is hard for modern man, brought up
in the heavily analytic/specialist aftermath of the Renaissance, to
penetrate the medieval world view.

Sorry for the length.  Every once in a while I remember I was a
scholar once, before they put this computer in front of me and said
"program or perish."

Christe McMenomy, PhD (History/UCLA)
Rand Corporation

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 86 10:13 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: More Tolkien

pre-script: If anyone wants to learn more about anything in the
Tolkien books, read _The Silmarillion_.  Reads kind of like the
Bible, but if you could get through LOtR you could probably get
through this.

OK, here's the scoop on Gandalf.  Somewhere in _Return of the King_
when (I believe) Aragorn is talking to someone else about Gandalf,
the other says, "Yes, he said to me, 'I am Mithrandir to the Elves,
Gandalf to men, and Olorin in the West that is forgotten'" (or
something like that).  The key here is Olorin.  A little background
is necessary to explain this...

The Creator of the Universe is Iluvatar.  He made two kinds of
"angels" the Valar (higher) and Maiar (lesser).  (not strictly
accurate, since the Valar were only called such when they went down
to Arda) Anyway, Olorin is described as one of the wisest of the
Maiar.  Thus, he's sort of a lesser angel.

Actually, all the wizards were Maiar, I think -- someone stop me if
I'm wrong.  They all came out of Valinor...

Oh, and I'd also like to hear an explanation of Gandalf's comment
how "Merry, of all of us, was the closest".

nj

------------------------------

From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: Gandalf (and Star Wars)
Date: 30 Apr 86 16:03:00 GMT

> I hadn't thought of that before!  Star Wars is set in the past, of
> course (this is announced before the title, even), but it never
> occurred to me that Middle Earth is in the future.

I don't think it is.  I haven't read LotR in years, so I can't do
the serious detail a lot of people on net.sf still seem capable of,
but as I recall, the story takes place a long time ago on the
European continent.  There are several ages, and during LotR the Age
of Man is just beginning - during the course of the work we see
various races disappearing from the Earth - the journey toward the
Sea, etc.  The implication being that as more time passes only
humans will be left.

Further: recall in The Hobbit, when Gandalf, speaking in the
present, talks about how it's difficult to spot a hobbit *NOWADAYS*?

I think it's clear that Middle Earth is pre-modern history.

Though I would welcome argument.  Summer's always a good time
to delve...

mike krantz

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson
Date: 27 Apr 86 18:28:04 GMT

> From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech)
>       Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have
> found only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would
> like more if they exist.

   Didn't he also write THE KEEP?  I found this book to be one of
the finest horror novels I've read.  Briefly, it's about Nazis
inhabiting a haunted castle during WWII.  The great thing about the
book is that you don't know whom to "root for"; if the Nazis win,
then chalk one up for Hitler, but if the "monster" wins, it is
unleashed on the Earth.  I read the whole thing in a single,
spellbound sitting.

   BTW, it came out as a movie two years ago.  Worst piece of shit I
ever saw on the screen.  Don't judge the book by it!

Dan

------------------------------

From: ur-tut!scco@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Colbath)
Subject: Re: slang
Date: 30 Apr 86 01:35:53 GMT

>From: Rob Freundlich
>   There was a survey done recently (I think by Newsweek, but I'm
>not sure) which looked at the current slang on college campuses.
>Anyone who's read _Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ should
>recognize the slang from University of Rochester: a cool person is
>"hoopy" or "froody" (As in "You sass that hoopy Ford Prefect?
>There's one frood who really knows where his towel is!").

Aaahh yes, I remember that poll...  Actually, it's quite interesting
how those Newsweek "On Campus" polls are conducted.  There is a
small kiosk located in our union (Wilson commons), known as "The
Polling Poll" (ick) that has a small alphabetic membrane keyboard
and a video screen.  It runs in a sort of "attract mode" until
someone comes up and starts playing with it.  It then leads you
through a series of color graphics and menus dealing with this
month's poll, allowing you to pick "one of the above", or in some
cases, "all that apply"...  The most interesting thing that happens
is when it dies - the screen turns entirely blue and the message
"Commodore Basic - 32K free" appears at the top...  :-) I really
wonder about the validity of some of the results, though.  I
recently watched as a friend of mine took a poll, dealing
primarially with fashion trends on campus.  Most of the time he had
to answer "Other" or "None of the above".  On the menu dealing with
upcoming trends in college fashion, you had to pick what you thought
would be next year's style.  One of the choices out of about 20 was
Nehru jackets.  Nehru jackets???  Gimme a break!!!

Actually, I must say, for the record, that I have never heard anyone
at the University of Rochester use the words "hoopy" *or* "froody".
I do know a couple of people who would definitely qualify as zeebs,
though!  :-)

Sean Colbath
UUCP:    ...allegra!rochester!ur-tut!scco
BITNET:  SCCO@UORVM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 May 86 1147-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #100
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:

                Books - Moorcock & Niven & Rogers &
                        Sheckley & Tolkien (2 msgs) &
                        Story Request & Codex Seraphinianus &
                        Animals
                Miscellaneous - Survey of Words

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 30 Apr 86 01:42:42 GMT

> From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
>A while ago, somebody mentioned a series of books written by
>Michael Moorcock based on his "Eternal Champion" concept.  Having
>just finished the Elric Saga, I would be very interested if someone
>would post a list of the books that make up the series

All of Moorcock books are related to some extent, but those tied
most closely to the Eternal Champion concept involve the characters
of Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekose.

Much of Moorcocks work appeared first in magazines and was later
collected into books. For example _Stormbringer_ is a novelization
of the four short stories _Black Sword's Brother_, _Dead God's
Homecomming_, _Doomed Lord's Passing_, and _Sad Giant's Shield_. The
contents of the British and American editions differ in some cases.
As if that wasn't enough Moorcock made some heavy revisions to the
editions that appeared in the late 70s, to make the cycle more
consistent. Now is a good time to be reading these books because
Berkeley is reissuing almost all of them. (The last 3 Hawkmoon book
have been notoriously hard to find) Anyhow - here's the list...

The ELRIC novels (in order)

1. Elric of Melnibone             (British: The Dreaming City)
2. A Sailor on the Seas of Fate
3. Weird of the White Wolf        (British: The Stealer of Souls)
4. The Vanishing Tower            (British: The Sleeping Sorceress)
5. The Bane of the Black Sword
6. Stormbringer
7. Elric at the End of Time   (A short story found in the collection
                               of the same name)

The CORUM novels (in order)

1. The Knight of the Swords
2. The Queen of the Swords
3. The King of the Swords
   1,2,&3 collected as The Swords Trilogy
4. The Bull and the Spear
5. The Oak and the Ram
6. The Sword and the Stallion
   4,5,&6 collected as The Chronicles of Corum

The HAWKMOON novels (in order)

1. The Jewel in the Skull
2. The Mad God's Amulet     (British: Sorcerer's Amulet)
3. The Sword of the Dawn
4. The Runestaff            (British: The Secret of the Runestaff)
5. Count Brass
6. The Champion of Garathorm   (Can also be read as Erekose #3)
7. The Quest for Tanelorn      (Can also be read as Erekose #4)

Erekose

1. The Eternal Champion
2. The Silver Warriors    (British: Phoenix in Obsidian)

Incarnations of the E.C. in more modern times include Jerry
Corneilus and Oswald Bastable.

The JERRY CORNELIUS novels (in order)

1. The Final Program
2. A Cure for Cancer
3. The English Assassin
4. The Condition of Muzak
   1,2,3,&4 collected as The Cornelius Cronicles
5. The Lives (sic) and Times of Jerry Cornelius
6. The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th
   Century

The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order)

1. The Warlord of the Air
2. The Land Leviathan
3. The Steel Tsar

There are others, including Michael Kane and Karl Glogauer, but my
fingers are getting tired. Try getting a copy of _A Reader's Guide
to Fantasy_ by Searles, Meacham, & Franklin (C 1981 from Avon), or
better still _The Tanelorn Archives_ by Richard Bilyeu (C 1982 from
Pandora's Books)

The Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, and Erekose stories are some of the best
swords & sorcery fiction around. Moorcock practically defined the
(S&S) genre when he wrote them. I recommend them highly.

Happy reading,
Ralph Schurman
...!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF (ASTRA & FLONDRIX and
Subject: others)
Date: 29 Apr 86 12:14:40 GMT

I *think* the title for the collection of the Svetz stories was "The
Flight of the Horse" rather than "Get a Horse."  "Get a Horse" was
the title of the particular story that had to do with a horse.

I don't want to say for sure because the only copy I have is in
German, and while the German title is "Der Flug des Pferdes" who
knows what the publisher would have done....

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 01 May 86 02:07 EDT
From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: Funny F&SF

In all this discussion, I wonder why no has yet cited "The
Adventures of Samurai Cat", written and lavishly illustrated by Mark
E. Rogers. It's a fabulously silly work, beginning as a story about
a cat who happens to be a samurai, then about 10pp. into the story
one reaches a paragraph where the 100 hits of acid one unknowingly
dropped a half hour previously all suddenly kick in at once. If you
should happen across this book, do NOT page through it nor peruse
the back-cover blurb until you've read the first chapter, else the
"Say WHAT?" value of the above-mentioned passage will be severly
diluted.

A fine book, especially for those who enjoy literary reference
games.

------------------------------

From: boring!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens)
Subject: Re: SF Humor
Date: 1 May 86 01:27:00 GMT

From: Kinsman David J <8440827%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
> Has anyone come accross any SF humor similar in nature to the
> Douglas Adams trilogy.  I loved those books and am interested in
> finding others that are similar.

I find the humor in Robert Sheckley's "Dimension of Miracles" (1968,
Dell, and so dating from Before The Trilogy) of a similar spirit.
Absurdity prevails and rather than having these one or mayhap two
deviations from accepted physical laws traditionally granted the
author in SF, physics as we know it is irrelevant and events (and
people) are driven by their own, crazy, logic.

Lambert Meertens
...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP
CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam

------------------------------

From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 1 May 86 03:17:29 GMT

djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes:
> First of all, to the easy answers -- it was Robert Foster's "Guide
> to Middle-Earth," now supplanted by the "Complete Guide" etc.  And
> No, Gandalf was certainly **not** Manwe.

I just looked at a copy of "Unfinished Tales", and on page 395 it
indicates that some thought Gandalf was Manwe in disguise, but in
fact Manwe is not to leave Taniquetil (the mountain upon which he
stays) until the Last Battle.

The relevant sections of "Unfinished Tales" to read start at page
348 and page 388 -- one section is called "Of the Istari" which is
where the appointment of the Istari is discussed.

gregbo

------------------------------

From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 30 Apr 86 08:41:16 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP (Bhaskar) writes:
> My question is about Gandalf. Does the author explicitly mention
> anywhere what type of "being" Gandalf was ? Several species of
> life are mentioned - hobbits, men, dwarves, elves among them. Into
> which category did Gandalf fit ? Is Wizard a separate class ?

  Separate from all of the above, at least.  Gandalf, Saruman,
Radagast, etc, are Istari, or Wizards.  They are of roughly the same
order of being as Sauron.  They are Maiar.

   With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before
   the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree.
   These are the Maiar, people of the Valar, and their servants and
   helpers.  [...]  Wisest of the Maiar was Ol\'orin.  He too dwelt
   in L\'orien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna,
   and of her he learned pity and patience.
    [The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, `Of the Maiar']

and when Frodo was talking with Faramir:

   `The Grey Pilgrim?' said Frodo.  `Had he a name?'  `Mithrandir we
   called him in elf-fashion,' said Faramir, `and he was content.
   Many are my names in many co[u]ntries, he said.  Mithrandir among
   the Elves, Thark\^un to the Dwarves, Ol\'orin I was in my youth
   in the West that is forgotten, in the South Inc\'anus, in the
   North Gandalf; to the East I go not.'
    [LOTR, The Two Towers, `The Window on the West']

and

   Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in
   the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards.
   None knew at that time whence they were, save C\'\i rdan of the
   Havens, and only to Elrond and Galadriel did he reveal that they
   came over the Sea.  But afterwards it was said among the Elves
   tha they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest
   the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves
   and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds.
   [...] and the peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names,
   for their true names they did not reveal.  Chief among them were
   those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curun\'\i r, but Men
   in the North named Gandalf and Saruman.
    [The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]

> If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where
> it is said . I do not have the time to start reading the trilogy
> all over again.

  Try to find a copy of the Silmarillion; my copy has the
following in the front pages:

  British Library Cataloguing in Publication Data

   Tolkien, John Ronald Reuel
     The silmarillion [sic].
     I. Title  II. Tolkien, Christopher
     823'.9'1F        PR6032.032S/            78--40783

   ISBN 0--04--823153--3

USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
     philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
        mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs\
         !mcgill-vision!mouse
ARPAnet: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa

------------------------------

From: ellie!colonel@caip.rutgers.edu (Col. G. L. Sicherman)
Subject: Re: Time is Money
Date: 29 Apr 86 18:26:07 GMT

> About 5-10 years ago, an excellent short story appeared in Playboy
> (yes, some people actually read the articles ;-) that really
> illustrated the value of time.  The article was called "Time is
> Money" and the basic idea was that time, rather than money, was
> used as the medium of exchange.  Everyone was born with a certain
> amount of time, and when you reached a certain age you had to
> start earning your own time.  It could be traded, saved, invested,
> borrowed, loaned, used to buy goods, etc.  But, when you finally
> used up all of your time, you died.

An old idea.  I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized in
(F&SF?) in the 70's.  It was about a planet where morality was
enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in
newborns' brains.  One person held the controls.  Anybody remember
it?  I think it was nominated for some prize or other.

Time is money, eh?  I guess the winner is the one who dies at the
most advanced age!

Col. G. L. Sicherman
UU: ...{rocksvax|decvax}!sunybcs!colonel
CS: colonel@buffalo-cs
BI: csdsicher@sunyabva

------------------------------

From: spar!dps@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Simpson)
Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_
Date: 30 Apr 86 16:48:32 GMT

>From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>Recently I was reading Douglas Hofstadter's _Metamagical_Themas_
>(not an sf book, but great for all you metaphilosophers,
>mathematicians, linguists, Rubik's cubists, etc.)  In his chapter
>on nonsense I came across a reference to a book called
>_Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an "encyclopedia" by
>an Italian architect about some strange other world/universe with
>full-color illustrations...  written in a language completely
>unknown on Earth.  It must be a linguist's delight.  Has anyone
>here read it?

I have a copy of _Codex_Seraphinianus_, which I enjoy greatly, and
feel was well worth its high price.  It is one of those works whose
appeal comes (at least partly) from elements whose meaning seems to
be somehow just out of reach.  Like the _Voynitch_Manuscript_, it is
in an unknown symbology of the "handwriting" style (looped, cursive,
and connected).  There are apparently somewhere around three hundred
symbols, not counting what look like special technical symbols for
mathmatical, chemical, or magical formulae.  The page numbers are in
a scheme vaguely like Roman numerals, which I did manage to figure
out.  It is a base twenty-one notation.  I cannot really do justice
to the illustrations here.  They are *very* strange, and
tantalising.  There are neatly labled rows of what might be pills,
or candies, or micro-organisms, or insect eggs, or some scheme for
representing atoms or molecules....  And that is just one page.
There are card games, costumes, festivals, tools and machines, even
a section on the alphabet.

Other examples of this sort of thing don't come to mind just now,
but the mental effect is a bit similar to trying to figure out what
is going on in some of Edward Gorey (_The_Willowdale_Handcar_) or
Thomas Pynchon (_The_ _Crying_of_Lot_49_).  Sort of like pornography
for the pattern-finding part of the mind.  Is there a language in
there?  It *looks* like there is....

------------------------------

From: valid!jao@caip.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: animals animals animals
Date: 30 Apr 86 22:05:49 GMT

> "The Island of Dr. Moreau", by Jules Verne. Weird island with a
> typical Vernian villian, i.e., mad scientist makes amazing
> discovery and uses it

Except it's by H. G. Wells.

John Oswalt (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!jao)

------------------------------

From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: tales of fen and filksong, and a survey
Date: 28 Apr 86 19:33:20 GMT

> From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
> As an individual unsocialized sf-lover for a long time but a
> fairly recent subscriber to this digest, I would be interested in
> seeing an etymology and definition of "fen" (I do have some idea
> what it must mean).  Also, while I know the meaning of "filksong,"
> I am curious about its etymology too.

The derivations have always seemed so clear to me that I've never
asked, so I may be wrong.  I have always assumed that "fen" was the
plural of "fan", just as "men" is the plural of "man".  And
"filksong" seems a natural contraction of "science fiction
folksong".  (Taking it in steps, "fiction" and "folksong" are
combined because of generally similar rhythm and sound, and we have
"science filksong".  Then "filk" reminds of "silk" (the
fricative-to-sibilant shift is easy to make, right?), so we are
reminded of the S-F-ness of the derivation by using just
"filksong".)

There are other examples of such "whimsically regular" or
"whimsically contracted" word coinages.  An example of a whimsically
regular word is "vaxen" as the plural of "vax" (just as "oxen" is
the plural of "ox", and "boxen" is the plural of "box":-).  This
type of thing also leads to questions like "if a fortification is a
large fort, is a ratification a large rat?", and so on.  And
whimsical contraction leads to many a sniglet, like
"lactomangulation".

Being interested in such things, I'll volunteer to collect a
"cannonical collection of 'whimsically regular' words".  *NOTE* that
I am only interested in whimsically *regular* words... Rich Hall is
doing all the sniglets :-).  If you know of a fairly widely-used
whimsically regular word, mail it to me and if enough come in I'll
post a followup.  If you send a word, please point out to me what
the whimsical regularity is...  despite having (I assume) "gotten"
the regularity of "fen", I may easily miss others.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 May 86 1404-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #101
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:

          Books - Asimov & Heinlein & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                  Pohl & Tolkien (3 msgs) & 
                  Story Request Answered,
          Television - The Twilight Zone,
          Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE NORBY CHRONICLES by Janet & Isaac Asimov
Date: 1 May 86 22:06:37 GMT

           THE NORBY CHRONICLES by Janet and Isaac Asimov
                         Ace, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

  When I first saw this, complete with subtitle "More Asimov
Robots!", I thought it might be part of his "real" robot series.
However, a quick perusal indicated that this was not the case; it is
in fact a juvenile totally unrelated to his other works.  The other
thing I noticed was that J.  O. Jeppson (a.k.a. Janet Jeppson) had
finally given in to the pressures of business and is now writing
under the name "Janet Asimov."

     Be that as it may, the question is, "Is it any good?"  Well,
it's been a long time since I was of an age to really appreciate a
juvenile novel, but I just had this feeling that this wasn't one.
Jeff Wells, our teenage hero, has an older brother named Farley
Gordon (he's called "Fargo Wells") and a second-hand robot named
Norby ("one of the very ancient R2 models", which looks just like
R2-D2 on the cover) and gets into trouble with them and eventually
saves the Solar System from Ing the Ingrate and other nasties.
Typical juvenile fare, but the situations are so unbelievable that
no child old enough to read would believe it, or should.  Example:
the Inventors Union wants to take Norby apart to see what makes him
tick.  But Admiral Yobo is so friendly with Jeff that he breaks all
sorts of rules to help them escape.  Kids today are too
sophisticated to believe that (I hope).

     Just to see if I had gotten out of touch with juvenile novels,
I re- read DAVID STAR, SPACE RANGER.  I had remembered it as being
better than THE NORBY CHRONICLES and it was.  I must conclude that
this novel (actually two novellas "Norby, the Mixed-Up Robot" and
"Norby's Other Secret") was marketed to capitalize on Asimov's name.
Pass it by.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 1 May 86 01:29:27 GMT

nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes:
>I had heard about this series of books, and am interested in
>reading them, but I haven't been able to find out what the complete
>series is.  Could someone on the net please list what books are in
>this series, and in what order they are in? E.g. Methuselah's
>Children, Time Enough for Love.

   The complete FUTURE HISTORY, with the exception of TIME ENOUGH
FOR LOVE [and NOtb (gag me with a Libyan thermonuclear device)] can
be found in the book THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW.  Why on Earth RAH
called his Future History collection by this name is beyond me.
They are also available as individual collections, of which the last
two are REVOLT IN 2100 and M.C.  (The others escape me at the
moment.)  TEFL is the last of the official Future History, but NOtb
is rather like a Heinlein convention -- everyone from all of RAH's
books show up, at least in the L'Envoi.

Pat Juola
Hopkins Maths

------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 May 86 11:16:46-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Eternal Champion -- you missed some

What about Jerry Cornelius, Jherek Carnelian, and Jerry Cornell?
You missed some of Moorcock's most important characters, though
Cornelius starts off being contemporary fiction (and quickly turns
into weird sf), and Cornell is not SF at all.

Note the simple minded repetition of initials in a number of eternal
champion incarnations.

Jerry Cornelius "The Cornelius Chronicles", as well as some other
works, is the modern avatar, overcome with angst, in a
disintegrating world.

Jherek Carnelian, "Legends From The End Of Time", et al is the
avatar at the End of Time, where all the few remaining residents of
Earth have near-infinite power.

Jerry Cornell is a poor bloke of an intelligence agent, in some of
the funniest spy fiction ever written -- "The Chinese Agent" and
"The Russian Intelligence". Cornell is kind of like a failed
Cornelius, and Cornelius is so badly off that Cornell is
bathetically funny.

In one of these novels, I forget which, just about all the
characters from all his novels meet and discover they are related,
kind of like the later Heinlein, only funnier.

Laurence

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 1 May 86 05:52:55 GMT

> He has also written a book called The Warhound and the World's
> Pain that had absolutely nothing to the eternal champion.

I beg to differ.  Rename "God" "Law" and "Satan" "Chaos" and you
have the Eternal Champion formula all over again.  The Eternal
Champion formula applied to our own world if you will.  And the
gaily dressed fop who comes in at the end reminds me of no one so
much as Jhary-a-conel (known by Mabelrode as the "Eternal
Lickspittle").

There is also the Michael Kane series which is ostensibly IN the
Eternal Champion series, but appears to bear more resemblance to
Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter series than anything else.  Of
course, I have only read one of the books (they're hard to find), so
I can't be sure.  If the person who was so interested in collecting
a list of all books that relate to Mars is still on the net, here
are the titles:

   City of the Beast
   Lord of the Spiders
   Masters of the Pit

Anyone know anything about these following Moorcock books?

   The Entropy Tango
   The Brothel in Rosenstrasse

Or why Moorcock acknowledges Brecht's "Three-Penny Opera" at the
outset of the Elric series?

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: BLACK STAR RISING by Frederik Pohl
Date: 1 May 86 22:05:46 GMT

                 BLACK STAR RISING by Frederik Pohl
                           Del Rey, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     As a member of a two-income family, I am acutely aware of what
can and cannot be written off on taxes.  So it is with some
assurance that I say that BLACK STAR RISING was written as a tax
write-off.

     Why do I say that?  Well, a year or so ago Fred Pohl visited
China.  BLACK STAR RISING takes place in a United States controlled
by China (after an abortive nuclear exchange between the United
States and the USSR).  Castor (our hero) works on the Heavenly Grain
Collective Farm outside Biloxi, Mississippi.  When he finds a head
in the rice paddies on the collective, he starts a sequence of
events that embroil him in an alien (outer-space-type aliens this
time) invasion of Earth.

     Pohl leans heavily on his experiences in China for background,
right down to the ubiquitous orange soda.  (I say this with some
assurance also, since I've also been to China.  Unfortunately, I
haven't figured out how to write off the trip.)

     BLACK STAR RISING is better Pohl than I've seen in a while.
(Bear in mind that I am not a big fan of recent Pohl novels.)  It's
not a great novel and some of the coincidences tax the reader's
"willing suspension of disbelief," but the background is interesting
(and reasonably accurate).  If the ending seems a bit of a letdown,
well, it was fun getting there.  The number of questions left
unanswered make me believe there may be a sequel down the road.

     (I don't see where the title comes from.  It reminds me of
Campbell's THE BLACK STAR PASSES--a great old-time space story I
would recommend--but the two stories have nothing in common.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 86 10:49:23 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: (Tolkien) Inscription on door

There's been a lot of detail and scholarship shown in analyzing the
situation in LOTR about the Elvish inscription on the door. The one
aspect that hasn't been mentioned is the merely practical -- why
wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words aloud,
either while reading them initially or while explaining the
situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the
word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's
opening? It wouldn't matter which of the punctuation-dependent
meanings of the phrase he believed; just saying the phrase itself
would mean that he spoke the word for 'friend' and the door would
have opened.

Or am I missing something, due to it being so long since I read
LOTR?  Did they have to shout the word into an opening or something
like that? (So that using the phonemes in ordinary speech near the
door would not have triggered the opening?)

Will

------------------------------

From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen)
Subject: Tolkein - Language question
Date: 1 May 86 05:20:16 GMT

The recent discussion of Wizards in Lord of the Rings reminds me of
a passage in LOTR that I've wondered about for some time.  In the
orc-tower of Cirith Ungol, Snaga tells Shagrat

        "...There's a great fighter about, one of those
        bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_."

I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga
is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard.
Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?

Jim Olsen
ARPA:olsen@ll-xn
UUCP:{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth
Subject: [LONG]
Date: 1 May 86 06:17:29 GMT

> From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
> In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as an Istari, one of
> five Wizards who appeared in Middle Earth after the Fall of
> Numenor, sent from beyond the sundering seas to aid Middle Earth
> in its struggle against Sauron.  Saruman is "the head of the
> order" which together with Elrond and Galadriel formed the White
> Council to fight the Necromancer.  The only other named Istari is
> Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals.

Not true, the "blue" Istari bear the names Alatar and Pallando.
Time to dust off your copy of _Unfinished Tales_...

By the way, of them Tolkien wrote "I think they went as emissaries
to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range:
missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands as it were.  What success
they had, I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did,
though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders
or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted
the fall of Sauron."  [The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, p. 280.]  --

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: story search
Date: 30 Apr 86 18:59:58 GMT

"The Hour of Not Quite Rain" appeared in SCIENCE FICTION MONTHLY,
July, 1974.  Re-printed in Janet Sacks's BEST OF SCIENCE FICTION
MONTHLY.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Save The Twilight Zone!
Date: 1 May 86 06:02:27 GMT

> I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's
> program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry)
> that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone.

One starts to wonder whether the networks start these rumors in
order to generate a flurry of excitement that will impress
advertisers...

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 86 11:52:13 PDT
From: woody@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (William E. Woody)
Subject: re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters

From page 21ff, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol.  It
says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster.
    It says that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon
wrapped round a large gold brick.
    The Guide also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic
Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one
and which voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate
afterward.
    The Guide even tells you how you can mix one yourself.
    Take the juice from one bottle of the Ol' Janx Spirit, it says.
    Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus
V--Oh, that Santraginean seawater, it says.  Oh, those Santraginean
fish!
    Allow three cubes of Arturan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture
(it must be properly iced or the benzine is lost)
    Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it, in
memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the
Marshes of Fallia.
    Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin
Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the dark
Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet and mystic.
    Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger.  Watch it dissolve,
spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into the heart of the
drink.
    Sprinkle Zamphuor.
    Add an olive.
    Drink...but...very carefully..."

    So, where do you get Ol' Janx Spirit, seawater from
Santraginean, Arturan Mega-gin (no substitutes--simple gin with
benzine bubbled through just won't cut it), Fallian marsh (with its
subtle mind-altering effects), Qualactin Hypermint extract (mint?  I
thought this was a slice of Lemon over a gold brick!) the tooth of
an Algolian Suntiger, and Zamphuor?  (I can get all the olives I
want from the olive walk in front of Lloyd here at Caltech.)
    Anyone out there got an electronic thumb?  Maybe we can hitch a
ride to a reasonable liquor store...

William Woody
NET  Woody%Romeo@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu
USNAIL  1-54 Lloyd, Caltech / Pasadena, CA 91126

------------------------------

From: hope!allanon@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Leung)
Subject: Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster
Date: 30 Apr 86 18:01:25 GMT

  According to what I know, the Gargle Blaster is a sicko yellowish
green, info provided by hope!spock.
  My version of Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster (try at your own risk) :

    G*rd*n's g*n           \
    B*card*'s L*ght         \   No Brand name intended, but I use only
    Sm*rn*ff's Vodka         \  high quality stuff.
    Tr*ple Sec               /
    M*untain Dew            /
    Lime Juice or food dye /

    Mix to your desired strength and color.

/*NOT RECOMMENDED BEFORE DRIVING OR STEALING BLACK SPACESHIPS WHICH
MAY BE RUNNING INTO THE SUN IN THE NEAR FUTURE  */

Kenneth Leung
ps I have also mixed Romulan ale once for sushi party with a group
   of trek fans. The effect wan't too bad    :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 May 86 13:08 EDT
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #91

Subject:  Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster

A while back in SF-Lovers there was two postings on how to mix a
PGGB.  I convinced a cute bartender to mix the second of the two.
My group of four went through 3 pictures (at $16 per picture + tip).
They were out of this world, fantastic, and pure see-thru GREEN.

The next morning there was a large lemon wrapped around a large gold
brick somewhere in the vicinity of my brain.  Worth it though, but
drink carefully, they are MUCH more powerful than you think,
especially for a regular beer drinker.  Why walk when you can
stagger?

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 86 0804-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #102
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:

      Books - Hambly & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Tolkien (3 msgs) &
              Wilson & Story Request & Codex Seraphinianus & 
              Funny SF,
      Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters (2 msgs) &
              Star Wars vs King Arthur

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 86 07:57 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly

To Garrett Fitzgerald: Yes, you probably did.  Including references
to Doctor Who, Battlestar Galactica, Have Gun, Will Travel, and
probably some others.

I have more details, but I don't want to fill up the digest with
them.  Send me your net address (why wasn't it in your message?) if
you're interested

Lisa

------------------------------

From: mruxe!ajb@caip.rutgers.edu (A J Burstein)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 30 Apr 86 21:36:29 GMT

>> Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect
>> with everything else he's written?

Actually, Moorcock has written some good books that don't involve
the Eternal Champion (unless you REALLY stretch it).  One is called
Behold the Man, and I think that it won a Nebula.  It's about time
travel and Jesus Christ.  Another one, a personal favorite, is The
War Hound and the World's Pain.  This one takes place in the Thirty
Years War.

I suppose that the Eternal Champion is now officially linked to The
Dancers at the End of Time by the short story "Elric at the End of
Time" (I'm not kidding).  It's recently published in a paperback
collection of short stories under the same name.

Andy Burstein
ihnp4!mruxe!ajb

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 86 08:43:37 PDT (Friday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion

The Jerry Cornelius Stories are a part of the Eternal Champion Saga
(in one place in the novels, the correspondences are rather
graphically laid out), and with publication of "Elric at the End of
Time" the End of Time tales are also tied in.

Kurt Piersol

------------------------------

From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: Gandalf (and Star Wars)
Date: 30 Apr 86 17:43:59 GMT

>cvl!bhaskar writes:
>>P.S.  Does anybody see strong parallels with the Star Wars novels
>>?  Gandalf - Kenobi, Saruman - Darth Vader, Sauron - Palpatine,
>>Frodo - Luke etc. are a host of what I see as parallels.

     C'mon folks... you could find similar parallels between just
about any two works of fantasy with the "quest" theme.  I get upset
when there are obvious ripoffs of story elements from individual
authors, but here the parallel is no greater than usual.  For an
analysis of such stories and why they appeal to us, see _The
Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious_ by C.G.Jung.  (At better
bookstores everywhere!)

>Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh)
>*I don't like fantasy.  I feel that anybody can write fiction if he
>gets to make up his own rules.

     I think this is a bit unfair.  The goodness of the fiction has
nothing to do with the arbitrariness of the rules, but I don't think
it's in inverse proportion.  What matters is that the rules appeal
to us on some level.  For you, the rules only have any appeal if
there's some attempt at scientific justification.  For others,
that's not necessary.

     For instance, there are many stories in which characters have
the ability to make themselves invisible.  But as net.games.frp'ers
know, it's almost impossible to cook up some even half-plausible
scientific explanation for invisibility.  The idea simply appeals to
us, so (some of us) can build up a secondary belief in it.

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

From: sdcsvax!rose@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan Rose)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 30 Apr 86 06:41:07 GMT

I don't think there's a strict parallel, but I think they are both
basically versions of the basic quest fantasy dating back centuries.

When _Star_Wars_ came out, people wondered why it was so popular
after years of Science Fiction being considered box office poison.
Many felt that it was just a matter of having the technical
capability to bring off an otherwise comic-book story.  My feeling,
though, is that _Star_Wars_ is not science fiction at all, but pure
fantasy.  Here's why (my own opinions):

In science fiction, authors take a real-life situation or problem
and give it a "what if" twist.  Examples of science fiction (by this
definition) are

   1984 -- what if the trend toward government surveillance and
           manipulation of the media were carried to its logical
           extreme?

   The Dispossessed -- what if a society based on anarchy were
           actually created?

   I, Robot -- what if robots become an essential part of our
           society?

   Planet of the Apes -- what if humans were not the dominant
           species on a planet?

        etc.

In fantasy, authors present a simple quest, usually a quest by some
good creatures who are being prevented by some bad creatures.
Examples of this are

   The Lord of the Rings -- Quest to destroy the ring by hobbits,
           elves, etc., hindered by orcs, nazgul, etc.

   Star Wars -- Quest to destroy the Death Star by Jedi, hindered
           by empire.

   numerous fairy tales -- Quest to destroy a dragon, ogre, etc.

Fantasy worlds don't have to be anything like our world, though they
often have allegorical parallels.  That's why I think _Star_Wars_
was so popular, and also why I agree that it is in many ways similar
to the Tolkien trilogy.

Dan Rose
rose@UCSD

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: nitpicking Re: Gandalf & Galadriel
Date: 1 May 86 17:15:39 GMT

>From: Bill Dowling <wad@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
>>Is Wizard a separate class ?
>
>To my recollection, Gandalf is never directly identified as being a
>human, elf, hobbit or whatever.  There is a strong indication
>however that Gandalf was an elf since he possessed one of the three
>elven rings of power.

   This is not correct; as other posters have demonstrated, the
Wizards ('Istari') are indeed another "class", being Maiar who have
come into Middle-earth.  That's not really the point of this
posting, though ...

>This fact is made clear in the final chapter of The Return of the
>King.  His appearance should not be considered any indication of
>his true race because it was well within his ability, partly due to
>his ring, to assume almost any appearance.

   This is true, cf. THE TWO TOWERS, Book Three, Chapter X: The
   Voice of Saruman:
       `I will come,' said Gimli.  `I wish to see him and learn if
   he really looks like you.'
       `And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf?' said Gandalf.
   `Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his
   purpose with you.  And are you yet wise enough to detect all his
   counterfeits?  . . .'

   But ...

>   He never really takes on drastically different forms but after
>his incident in Moria with the balrog he takes on his bright white
>form.  He also on occasion takes on an enlarged form in order to
>intimidate a particular character.
>   There is also a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring in which .
>. .  Galadriel's true form, that of an ancient elven woman, is
>revealed to Frodo.  Galadriel was also in possession of one of the
>three elven rings of power (Elrond possessed the third), and it was
>this ring that allowed her to maintain her youthful appearance.  I
>assume Gandalf used his ring in a similar manner except he chose an
>appearance more suited to his style and needs.

   I assume you are talking about this, from THE FELLOWSHIP OF
THE RING, Book Two, Chapter VII:
       She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there
   issued a great light that illuminated her along and left all else
   dark.  She stood before Frodo seeming tall beyond measurement,
   and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.  Then she
   let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed
   again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in
   simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

   I don't see how you figure that Galadriel "really" looks aged;
Elves don't age, remember?  And I know it's nit-picking, but I also
think you are reading the text a little too literally when you talk
about Gandalf changing his form to impress people and so on.  As in
the quote above, every time Tolkien says something like this he is
always describing the _impression_ someone makes, usually on one of
the hobbits.  In other words, he is just trying to convey a feeling
to us.  I don't think he's really trying to imply that Gandalf
actually putting on seven inches and forty pounds (-: insta-Charles
Atlas! :-) .
   Sorry to nit-pick, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.

pH

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson
Date: 30 Apr 86 21:40:44 GMT

>>He often tries to make the point of the best government is that
>>which governs least.
>
> I would replace "often tries to make the point. . ." with "seldom
>resists the temptation to ham-handedly moralize", otherwise, I
>would agree with the above.

None of this would surprise anyone who knew that F. Paul Wilson won
the Libertarian Award for Best Novel (or some such) for WHEELS
WITHIN WHEELS.  (The prize was paid, not surprisingly, in gold.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: Request for info about W. Macfarlane stories

In the early 70's I read a series of stories in various SF magazines
by W. Macfarlane.  The stories featured Col. Arleigh Ravenshaw, a
special investigator of some type, and his secretary, Nell Rowley.
The stories generally featured parallel-world travel.  I have a few
questions for the experts out there:

1. Does anyone have a complete list of the stories?  Were they ever
   collected?  Did Macfarlane write anything besides this series?

2. Was the complete text of the poem starting "The worlds exist in
   the mind alone..." ever printed?

3. Could someone provide more information about the author?  I don't
   think I've ever heard anything else about him/her.

These stories have stuck in my mind for fifteen years.  I will be
EXTREMELY grateful to anyone who answers any of the questions.

marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Subject: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: Fri, 02 May 86 03:15:08 -0800
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>

nj <s7ylf4@irishmvs.BITNET> writes:
>... I came across a reference to a book called
>_Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an "encyclopedia" by
>an Italian architect about some strange other world/universe with
>full-color illustrations...  written in a language completely
>unknown on Earth.  It must be a linguist's delight.  Has anyone
>here read it?

I received this book as a birthday present from my girlfriend a year
ago, and it's absolutely wonderful.  A coffee-table "Wonderful World
of Science and Nature" encyclopedia from a parallel dimension
strangely related to ours.

The form is clearly encyclopedic; the chapters are clearly devoted
to Botany, Biology, Anthropology, Chemistry, Technology,
Architecture ...  etc.  The world has plants that grow up into
chairs and get harvested, fish with built-in diving helmets,
inflatable punctuation marks, cities suspended from two facing
cliffsides, social strata indicated by odd combinations of headgear
and shoes ... like something out of a dream brought to life in vivid
colored-pencil drawings.

All the writing is in a strange curlicued undecipherable language
(well, I was able to decipher the numbers (from the page-numbers)
but nothing more).  My friends and I eventually decided that the
language, while possessing a definite albeit very large alphabet
(see the linguistics section), was bogus.  This may, however, just
be sour grapes, and I encourage further exploration!

One can spend hours going through this book, just marveling at the
strange things in it, puzzling out what purpose they serve, or just
enjoying the fantastic (literally!) artwork ... a must for lovers of
the bizarre or absurd.

   Serafini, Luigi
   Codex Serafinianus
   New York,
   Abbeville Press, 1981
   ISBN 0-89659-428-9

It is a large hardback book whose cover shows a series of pictures
depicting a couple making love turning into an alligator.  Really.

You will probably need to special-order it from an accomodating
bookstore.  My girlfriend stumbled across a new copy in a used
bookstore, but you will probably be less lucky.

Happy hunting and, I hope, reading!

Peter Alfke
alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 86  9:59:51 EDT
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: And! More! Funny! SF!

Wandering marginally adrift from the genre, let's not forget, or
re-discover, Thorne Smith.  The most well known of his books is, of
course, TOPPER, the movie/TV series of middle aged man who makes the
acquaintance of a trio of lush-life ghosts (George and Marian Kerby,
and their [name that] dog (also a lush).  Other Smith opi include
THE BISHOPS JAEGERS -- mm, I fergits the rest.  They're highly
amusing.  I read somewhere that Thorne Smith wrote for money, and
whenever he needed a refill on his bankaccount, he would check into
an ocean cruise with typewriter and paper, stay continuously drunk
-- and emerge with a new book, albeit few memories of how he wrote
it.  Sort of like Kuttner/Padgett's Gallagher, I guess.

And here's another vote each for Fritz Leiber, Fred Brown, William
Tenn, et. al.  Not to mention some of of older Fred Pohl, Horace
Gold, Mack Reynolds, Carol Emshwiller, assorted Sturgeon ... those
were happier days.

Lastly (for the nonce), THE STAR BEAST, by Robert Heinlein.

daniel dern
ddern@bbnccb.arpa

------------------------------

From: wucec2!kl2427@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster
Date: 1 May 86 23:31:19 GMT

At UNICON about three years ago I stumbled into a party serving
PGGB's made from the following:
        champagne       (flat)
        Blue Liqueur
        vodka
        probably something else that I don't remember :-)

I was hoping someone responsible for them would give the right
recipe, but I suppose they haven't gotten out of therapy yet!

Good luck - this was very good (also VERY strong).  If you get it
right (it should be a clear, light blue), let me know the
proportions.

Remember - don't drink and drive.

Keni    (a.k.a Kenneth Lorber)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 May 86 10:15:22-EDT
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: PAn Galactic Gargle Blaster

If I recall correctly, HHGTTG gives instructions on how to make this
incredible drink.  However, I don't think most of the ingredients
are in existence on this planet.  You'll have to flag down a passing
spaceship if you want these ingredients (check the Weekly World
News.  They usually report sightings of teasers).

Rob Freundlich
s.r-freundlich&kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 May 86 10:24:01-EDT
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: Star Wars

>Uthur & Darth Vadar

Uther & Darth Vadar?!?!?  Where do you get that from?  Yes, Uther
was Arthur's father, and Vadar was Luke's father, but the
similarities end there.

Uther died long before Arthur came into power (when Arthur was born,
in most versions of the legend); Vadar lives to bother Luke.  Vadar
is evil; Uther was basically good.  Vadar tries to kill Luke; Uther
saves him by giving him to Sir Ector.

Otherwise, the Star Wars/King Arthur analogy seems to hold up.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 86 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #103
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:

          Books - Ellison & Hambly & Heinlein & Schmitz &
                  Thorne Smith & Tolkien (3 msgs) &
                  Fantasy vs Hard SF & Codex Seraphinianus,
          Television - Doctor Who,
          Miscellaneous - Copyrights & Gargle Blasters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 86 23:15:03 EDT
From: Jim Aspnes <asp@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Character Copyright

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
>[ ... discussion of other characters deleted ... ] Similarly,
>Ellison claimed to be creator of the concept of a time- travelling
>robot designed to change history by selective assassination and won
>a sum of money plus on-screen credit on all videocassette copies of
>THE TERMINATOR in an out-of-court settlement.  (Ellison's original
>use of the character was in a brilliant episode of THE OUTER LIMITS
>entitled DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND, starring Robert Culp),

I find it difficult to believe that anyone who had seen DEMON WITH A
GLASS HAND would accept this comparison between Trent (Robert Culp's
amnesiac android character) and the Terminator.  Both are robots
sent back in time, disguised as human beings; but Trent's purpose
was was hardly to "change history by selective assassination."

I hope that DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND was not the only grounds for
Ellison's suit -- if such were indeed the case, he was damned lucky
that the studio settled rather than going through the hassle of
defending themselves in court.

Jim Aspnes (asp@athena.mit.edu)

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Re: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly
Date: Fri, 02 May 86 14:41:08 PDT

Well, there are other indirect references to TV shows/movies (mostly
westerns and SF):

1.  When Kirk and McCoy are in the spaceport debating Spock's
mission, Kirk's attention is attracted by a barroom brawl between a
scruffy looking spice pirate and two fighter pilots in brown jackets
from some down-at-the-heels migrant fleet.  The image of Han Solo
tangling with Apollo and Starbuck is priceless: I just wish I knew
who had won.

2.  When Spock/Ishmael is in San Francisco with the Bolt brothers,
he engages in a chess game with a man dressed all in black, wearing
a knight pin: that's Paladin from "Have Gun, Will Travel"; their
game is watched by a white-haired gentleman rancher from Virginia
City and his handsome young son (Ben Cartwright and Little Joe from
Bonanza).

I think there are also passing references to Sugarfoot and Bat
Masterson in the San Francisco section, but I am working from memory
since I don't have the book with me.  Hambly, by the way, names no
names in these encounters.

------------------------------

From: udenva!fcarmody@caip.rutgers.edu (Prince Caspian)
Subject: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection
Date: 28 Apr 86 22:17:35 GMT

It's *easy*, assuming all you want are the stories, in series
order.  Two books.
   _The Past Through Tomorrow_ (single volume anthology with
      timeline.)
   _Time Enough for Love_      (further adventures of Lazarus Long)

   The anthology is a re-edit job.  As far as I know, little
changes.  If you want *the books in which the stories first appear*,
that is a different breed of Solipsistic Wallwalking Feline, and I
will leave it to others.


Francis X. Carmody
Electronic Adress (UUcp only:{hplabs,seismo}!hao!udenva!fcarmody}
OR: {boulder,cires,denelcor,cisden}!udenva!fcarmody

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 86 10:51:12 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: Re: Funny Stories
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.COM
To: lance@LOGICON.Arpa

from: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
>Schmitz, James  Telzey Amberdon: (if their are any more let me know)
>    1) The Universe Against Her  - SF just entertaining
>    2) Telzey and other Stories  - but worthy of
>       mention
>    3) The Lion Game

     All of the above were originally published in Analog.  "The
Universe Against Her" is the expanded version of a novel published
around 1962, plus or minus a year.  There are several more short
stories published with Telzey Amberdon which were in Analog from
1967 to 1974.

Henry III

------------------------------

From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow)
Subject: Re: And! More! Funny! SF!
Date: 3 May 86 03:28:11 GMT

>From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
>Wandering marginally adrift from the genre, let's not forget, or
>re-discover, Thorne Smith.  The most well known of his books is, of
>course, TOPPER...

TOPPER the book is much different from TOPPER the movie.  And in the
second TOPPER book, Cosmo Topper consummates his affair with Marian
Kirby's ghost.  Thorne Smith's best book is *THE NIGHT LIFE OF THE
GODS*.

Respectfully,
Eric Robert Jablow
MSRI
ucbvax!brahms!jablow

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, Moria West-gate inscription, Legolas
Date: 30 Apr 86 12:40:31 GMT

I think the thing that killed *me* about the Gate inscription was
that the first time I read it, Gandalf read off "pedo mummble a
mumble mumble" and said "It says 'speak friend and enter.'"  Then
no-one could figure out what they were supposed to say.  I (being
the literal sort that I am) thought "Well, okay, so just say
'friend' -- what could it hurt?"

But it took Gandalf et al. pages and pages to come up with the idea
-- and I'm no wizard.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: platt@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (John Platt)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language
Subject: trivia)
Date: 2 May 86 03:13:38 GMT

ins_avrd@jhunix.UUCP (Victoria Rosly D'ull) writes:
>If anyone is interested in suchlike lore, I'd also recommend a book
>by Ruth Noel (I think), called _The_Languages_of_Middle-Earth_.  It
>covers several Elvish tongues in various detail, and Tolkien's
>other languages as well, and then there's the section with the
>translations of all the quotes....

Yes, indeed, "Languages of Middle Earth" was written by Ruth Noel. A
good book... especially for resolving disputes about Elvish trivia.
Another good book is "Mythology of Middle Earth," also by Ruth Noel,
which traces down the mythological roots of Tolkien's work. Hm...
Perhaps we should read these, then REALLY start to flame at each
other.

john platt
scgvaxd!cit-vax!platt
platt@cit-20.caltech.edu

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Dwarves
Date: 1 May 86 23:25:02 GMT

gds@sri-spam.UUCP writes:
>Tolkien not to have any female wizards (certainly there are
>sterling examples of women and their deeds -- Luthien, Melian,
>Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, and so forth).  The lack of female dwarves
>is noted though.

Either in the SILMARILLION or in the Appendices to LOTR, it is noted
that non-dwarves have major problems telling male dwarves apart from
female; also, there are much fewer females than males.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Fantasy vs "Hard" SF
Date: 2 May 86 08:33:40 GMT

kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes:
>*I don't like fantasy.  I feel that anybody can write fiction if he
>gets to make up his own rules.  I like hard SF, with premises that
>are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking.  I did read
>_The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed.  Please don't flame me for
>my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that Tolkien is
>the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Btw, I'm not claiming that
>Star Wars is all that hot either.

     I hope you will not consider it a flame to point out that SF,
even so-called "hard" SF, is a species of fantasy literature. I
seldom find the premises of SF to be plausible; usually, the science
breaks down in one rather obvious way or another. That is not to say
that I don't enjoy this kind of play with scientific ideas, because
I do; I just don't think that it should be confused with real
science, because it is almost always bad science, even when real
scientists do the writing. This is the nature of the genre.

    To say "anybody can write fiction if he gets to make up his own
rules" is like saying "anybody can compose music if he gets to use
his own scale".  The real "rules" are the rules of good writing. Any
techie half-wit can write "fiction" and throw in a lot of
technology. Many of you already know my pet example of this is
Robert L. Forward, so I won't beat this dead horse again. But the
point remains.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_
Date: 1 May 86 14:06:40 GMT

>...In his chapter on nonsense I came across a reference to a book
>called _Codex_Seraphinianus_, which he describes as an
>"encyclopedia" by an Italian architect about some strange other
>world/universe with full-color illustrations...  written in a
>language completely unknown on Earth.  It must be a linguist's
>delight.  Has anyone here read it?

No, but the New York Times Book Review reviewed it a couple of years
ago. They showed a single page from it, which had an illustration of
a man who had twigs and sticks tied to his body. There was text in
the imaginary language surrounding the image; the script was
cursive. The total effect was disturbing in a vague way.

Apparently you get a feeling for the natural history and sociology
of this 'parallel world' reading the book, but everything's shrouded
in impenetrable mystery. I was reminded of two things seeing the
illustration: Max Ernst's surrealist "Une Semaine De Bonte" and my
first glimpse of the Mayan Codex. There's a sense of knowledge that
is beyond your grasp because you don't have the key to it. More
importantly, there IS no key since the 'language' is made-up, so
you're forced to look at the text and images as objects (just as you
can appreciate the Mayan Codex from an aesthetic standpoint without
understanding the meaning of the hieroglyphs or the meaning of the
actions portrayed in the drawings). It's reminiscent of the
surrealist technique for disrupting meaning to release the action of
the subconscious, but I got the impression that the intent was more
to make a (semiotic) point about language.

Unfortunately, the book was very expensive so I haven't yet seen it.
If it comes out in paperback, I plan on getting a copy.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 1986 13:05:36 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: Doctor Who

Concerning the story "Face of Evil" from the Tom Baker era:

The Face of Evil turns out to be the Doctor's own face, due to his
attempt at repairing the ship's computer but forgetting to wipe his
personality print from the memory banks, thus driving the computer
insane when it developed a personality of it's own. But there's
something strange here: the Face is that of the Fourth Doctor, yet
he couldn't have visited the planet any time after his third
regeneration since we've seen where he's been with Sarah Jane. And
if he had visited the planet in one of his previous lives, then the
Face would have been that of whatever incarnation (i.e. First,
Second) had done the repair work on the computer. The point is that
the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's since he hadn't yet
been to Leela's planet in that incarnation.

CNS
U09862 @ UICVM

------------------------------

From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cpf)
Subject: Re: Character Copyright
Date: 30 Apr 86 18:51:49 GMT

jimb@ism780 writes:
>If a character is my invention and someone else uses it in a
>published story, they're making money offa my creative labor and
>will hear from my attorney.
>
>This does NOT apply, however, to characters in the public domain,
>e.g., those never copyrighted or those upon whom copyright has
>expired.  Hence, Sherlock Holmes, D'Artangnan, etc., are fair game.

Note that D'Artangnan could never have been copyrighted.  Why?
Because he was a historical person, about whom Dumas wrote
historical fiction!  If someone else had wanted to write a story
about D'Artangnan (for example, how he died at a siege, fighting on
the same(!) side as John Churchill (later first Duke of
Marlborough)), he certainly could have, even if it appeared only one
year after "The Three Musketeers".

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu
Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf
Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 86 12:23:46 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: mixable Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster

   The following was developed by Gary Dryfoos, a local SCAdian
("Algernon Hartesmond), balladeer ("The Ka-Khan and the Cowherd",
about a certain nauseating author's persona), champion punster, and
general weirdo, after taking a good bartending course. It is
\\extremely// drinkable, but it tends to be subtly dangerous rather
than as explosive as originally portrayed (in the BBC-TV version of
HITCHHIKER, a couple are shown drinking PGG's; they get about
halfway through before collapsing, whereupon the spilled drinks
start eating holes in the floor).

Over ice, mix the following:

 1 1/2 jiggers gold or dark rum ("Janx Spirit"--use all 151 only if
        you're trying to be deadly)
 1 jigger of 50/50 Triple-Sec/Amaretto ("Santraginus water")
 juice of 1/2 a substantial lemon (and some skin oil---squeeze
        directly into the mixing glass) ("Arcturian mega-gin"?)
 scoop of frozen orange juice concentrate ("suntiger tooth"?)

shake vigorously and strain into two glasses with fresh ice.

fill glasses with quinine water, club soda, or \very/ dry ginger ale
        ("Fallian marsh gas")

Optional: top with a small amount of blue curacao ("hyper-mint
extract") floated over the back of a spoon (really---that's the way
to make it sit on top rather than sliding to the bottom or mixing in
completely; instead it will stream, looking like a Jupiter Sunrise,
or turn the drink a pale Cthuloid green in warning).

Garnish with a slice of lemon (in description but not recipe, or
maybe this is zamphuor)

"Forget the damned olive!" (or garnish with an electric grape*) (you
could probably also use grated & rechopped coconut, just a dash, for
zamphuor)

In theory, this isn't all that strong (in practice, a lot depends on
the 151 and your definition of a jigger)---but the party at which
they were premiered was \very/ merry and ran until 5am (and I think
at least one person there still hasn't forgiven me . . .).

Please credit Gary Dryfoos if you use or copy this recipe.

CHip (Chip Hitchcock)
ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
uu: ...{!harvard,!cbosgd,!zeppo}!cca!cjh

* electric grapes: wash white seedless grapes (or red if you really
hate white), enough to fill a wide-mouth jar. Pour over this enough
brandy (or slivovitz!) (>9:1 with powdered sugar) to cover, seal,
and stow in a dark place for several months. Also good as an
hors-d'oeuvre by themselves---if you can't get one out of the jar
you've had enough.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 86 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:

               Books - Bayley & Bushyager & MacAvoy &
                       Moorcock (2 msgs) & Tilley &
                       Tolkien (2 msgs) & Varley &
                       Fantasy vs Hard SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: One shot authors
Date: 29 Apr 86 05:50:56 GMT

From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
>Besides the mentioned _The Zen Gun_ (of which I had never heard),
>Barrington Bailey has a published collection of short stories,
>called _Knights of the Limits_.
>
>I did buy and read that, though it is probably out of print by now.
>I concur that the stories aren't particularly well done, but the
>premises are fascinating (e.g., a solid universe where you tunnel
>through to travel ?!).

Bayley has also written a book called Star Winds.  It is about a far
future were Earth is a forgotten backwater in a universe where
Hermetic Alchemy has become the Technology.  It was put out by DAW.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Development

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 86 12:59 PDT
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: Missing Author

I was wondering if anybody on the net would know what happened to
Linda E. Bushyager.  She had 2 fantasy books published by Dell just
before Dell gave up on the SF-F line of books.  They were:
   The Spellstones of Shaltus (sp?)
   Master of Hawks
Both books (to compare them to something) remind me of MZ Bradley's
Darkover series, although Bushyager's books are much better as far
as I am concerned.  I would really like to read anything else she
has written either after, before or in between the two listed books.
My guess is she quit writing after all the hassles she got dealing
with Dell.  Hopefully she has published some more, maybe under a
different name.

Lance
Net: lance@LOGICON.ARPA

------------------------------

From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: R.A. MacAvoy
Date: 1 May 86 20:26:45 GMT

I received somewhere around eight replys to my original query.

The other books are the following:

   Damiano
   Damiano's Lute       these three are a trilogy
   Raphael

   The Book of Kells

As well as Tea with the Black Dragon.

None of the other books are like Tea with the Black Dragon.  The
Damiano trilogy is set in northern Italy during the fourteenth
century and the lead character is a magician.  The concensus is that
the first book is ** and the other two are good but not really the
caliber of the first.

All said that the characters are well developed and well written.

The Book of Kells is yet again different, a historical romance that
not many people wrote all that much about.  It seemed to receive
indifferent reviews.

If you disagree, send stuff to ME, not all the net.  Thanks!

Liralen
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh)
Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands
Date: 2 May 86 18:20:46 GMT

>>I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_
>>about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group
>>Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything
>>else he's written.  I think it's now out of print.  Small loss.
>
>Unfortunately not true.  Moorcock's band in the book, The Deep Fix,
>has shown up in several of the other books.  I believe they even
>existed in the (Moorcock, I know, would hate me for using this word
>but I have to) real world.  Has anyone ever seen/heard it?

Actually, the book was about the band Hawkwind, which has released
many albums (some live from their concerts), and most of which you
can still find in this country. Their genre is SF rock (believe it
or not) based on lots of synthesizer effects. The music has its
merits, though not to everybody's taste, obviously. If you're
interested, try the imports rack in any good music store, or even
the cutouts section. I don't know if the group still exists. The
most recent album of theirs that I've seen was dated ~1981 (it's
been a while).  Their most notable contribution to rock music seems
to have been their heavy use of drugs and light shows :-) (Rumor:
due to the drugs thing they may have had to go underground for a
while.)

Sue Shambaugh

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 2 May 86 15:56:45 GMT

Moorcock explicitly linked in "Behold the Man" in his 1970's rewrite
of "The Eternal Champion".  In various dreams, Erekose remembers
being Karl Glogauer (protagonist of Behold the Man).  The End of
Time stories are very much linked to the Eternal Champion cycle.
For example, the hero is Jherek Carnelian, a name that is very close
to Jerry Cornelius, Jhary a Conel, Jehemiah Cohnalius, and other
figures from obvious Eternal Champion books.  Carnelian's natural
father is Lord Jagged Canaria, another name close to Jerry
Cornelius.  As another example, a good deal of the important End of
Time Action takes place in a city called Shamalorm, which is clearly
the eternal city of Tanelorn that keeps popping up in all the other
Eternal Champion stuff.

I might also point to the many satiric references in the End of Time
books to other Eternal Champion material.  For example, in one of
the books in the Dancer trilogy, Carnelian comes upon a robot nanny
whose brain has been damaged with age.  The "nonsense" she spews out
is actually the overly verbose introduction to the Swords Trilogy
(the first Corum books).

In recent years, Moorcock has been more indirect in his ties to the
Eternal Champion books, but they're still there.  In Gloriana, for
example, there is almost no reference at all to other books...except
that Queen Gloriana's chief confidante is Una Persson, who appeared
in the Cornelius books, in the Dancers at the End of Time, in the
Bastable books, and in a few books of her own.  Similarly, in his
latest trilogy (beginning with "Byzantium Endures"), one of the
major figures is Catharine Cornelius, the British adventuress who is
also Jerry Cornelius''s aunt.

Moorcock has a lot of fun (I think) putting in these references and
snarling his universe together into interwoven patterns.  It is
particularly difficult to figure out what things came first in his
work, since he has rewritten a number of his earlier books to
include references to his later stuff.  In addition, his very
earliest work is hard to come by: The Golden Barge (written at the
age of 17 and already including many of the themes of the Eternal
Champion) and the Kingdom of Spiders trilogy (a set of books that
haven't been mentioned yet on the net, and which are definitely
linked to the Eternal Champion cycle).

Speaking of the Kingdom of Spiders books, anyone who finds them will
probably notice that they are heavily derived from Edgar Rice
Burroughs books about John Carter of Mars.  It's interesting to note
that John Carter himself is an aspect of the Eternal Champion and
could have been Moorcock's inspiration for the concept.  In the
first book of the series (close to the beginning of the book),
Carter clearly states that he can't remember being born, that he has
vague memories of fighting in archaic battles, and that he seems to
be drawn to scenes of combat in many times and places.  I suspect
that Moorcock latched onto this odd little paragraph (it's no more
than that) when he began the Spiders books and went on from there.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: CLOUD WARRIOR by Patrick Tilley (mild spoiler)
Date: 29 Apr 86 17:31:03 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The Talisman Prophecy promised victory -- but for which side?

  For the Federation -- Steve Brickman. Reared deep underground in a
  Federation fortress, he was the hottest pilot ever to graduate
  from the Academy. His assignment: wing man to the surface-train
  LADY FROM LOUISIANA, vulnerable keystone of the army sent to
  reconquer the Blue Sky World.

  For the Mutes -- Cadillac M'Call. Tall and smooth-skinned,
  Cadillac looked more like a Federation man than one of his
  radiation-changed clan brothers. His encyclopedic knowledge set
  Cadillac apart from the Mutes as well...as did his belief in a
  prophecy that forecast a far different Blue Sky World.

  The Talisman Prophecy drew them together...and the prophecy would
  decide which would live, and whose world would prevail."

The front cover shows men in flight suits fighting what appears to
be Plains Indians. I wouldn't have purchased the book based on the
cover, but I didn't have to: a friend highly recommended it and
loaned me his copy. I'm glad he did.

The scenario is Earth hundreds of years in the future, long after an
atomic war has divided the inhabitants of America into two opposing
groups, one above ground (technologically backward, biologically
scarred by radiation, with some members gifted with extrasensory
powers), and the other below ground (technological, regimented,
short-lived).  Interestingly enough, the 'backward' group comes
across as being more fully human than the others.

The two main characters are on a collision course, and the story
hops back and forth between the two until they meet. It's a smooth
transition, and the story is exciting and enjoyable throughout.
There's just enough background about the two cultures to make the
reader feel that he understands them as well as Brickman, who
himself is learning about the Mutes.

The technology of the Federation is explained and seems reasonable,
and the actions and activities of the Mutes seems natural.

All of the characters are interesting, and the two cultures are
cleverly developed. I give this book 3.5 stars out of 4.0 (very,
very good). Warning: this is the first book of a series, though this
isn't stated anywhere in the book.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 May 86 01:58 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Tom Bombadil

All this discussion of Gandalf has brought a remarkable response.
Now I hope to get some definitive answers to the nature and origin
of Tom Bombadil.  He plays a part in LoTR, where he rescues the
hobbits from Old Man Willow.  He is even mentioned in one of the
councils at Rivendel as a potential holder of the One Ring.  (As I
recall, he took it from Frodo, put it on, and DIDN'T become
invisible, a very good trick.)  He is mentioned in other things from
JRRT, but I don' recall him ever being EXPLAINED.  Can someone
enlighten me?

Thanks
David S.  Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: Sat 3 May 86 23:52:58-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Why Merry was the closest

When Gandalf first (mis)translated the writing on the door to Moria,
Merry asked "What does 'Speak, friend, and enter' mean" (or
something similar, I don't have my copy of LotR on hand).  Merry was
on the right track in trying to figure out that out instead of
glibly assuming the way Gimli and Gandalf did that it just meant
"say the password."

------------------------------

From: mruxe!ajb@caip.rutgers.edu (A J Burstein)
Subject: Varley's characters
Date: 2 May 86 20:51:33 GMT

As far as I can remember, all of John Varley's stories have had
female main characters.  Does anyone know of one of his stories in
which the protagonist is female?

Before I get in trouble (or is it too late?) I'd like to point out
that I don't think there is anything wrong with this.  In fact I
think it is a refreshing change.  While female writers may often use
male characters, they are simply following society's traditions:
most books are dominated by male characters, and a few have a
balance of men and women as main characters.  Varley is definitely
-- and deliberately? -- bucking the norm.  Comments anyone?

Andy Burstein
ihnp4!mruxe!ajb

------------------------------

Subject: Fantasy
Date: Sat, 03 May 86 14:35:09 -0800
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>

Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) writes:
>*I don't like fantasy.  I feel that anybody can write fiction if he
>gets to make up his own rules.  I like hard SF, with premises that
>are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking.  I did read
>_The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed.  Please don't flame me for
>my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that Tolkien is
>the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Btw, I'm not claiming that
>Star Wars is all that hot either.

No, I am not going to claim that LOTR is fantastic and that you are
an ignoramus if you don't like it.

What I am disagreeing with is your dismissal of fantasy on the
grounds that "anybody can write fiction if he gets to make up his
own rules."  Your statement is true in and of itself, however it is
also meaningless, as anyone can write fiction even if they adhere to
strict rules.  In fact, it's easier to write fiction if you stick to
hard-and-fast rules (why do you think so many hack writers write in
strongly-typed genres?)

In writing fantasy one does NOT make up one's own rules of fiction.
Lord of the Rings is written in an exceedingly well-accepted,
oft-used and traditional prose style.  The events happening in the
book follow logically from the premises that Tolkien has set up at
the beginning.  I suspect that Tolkien put more effort into defining
his fantasy world than almost any SF writer has put into his/hers.

You are confusing two fundamentally different concepts here:

   1. Rules of prose writing (i.e. Tolkien vs. Joyce)
   2. Rules of the universe in which the story takes place

You accuse fantasy of dismissing rule 1, but I suspect you really
mean rule 2.  As regards rule 2, remember that fantasy is one of the
oldest types of fiction, dating back to primitive myths and
childrens' fairy-tales, and that most fantasy writers still follow
the conventions set up thousands or hundreds of years ago.  Knights,
meddling gods, dragons, feudal societies, magicians casting spells,
enchanted weapons, quests ...  how many fantasy stories can you
think of that don't include at least one of these items?  Fantasy as
a whole is far more type-cast than science fiction is, so I don't
understand your complaints about rule 2.

As regards rule 1, there must be much more SF than fantasy that
experiments with unusual prose styles.  And such a prose style, to
be effective (and at all readable) must have certain rules.  Even
Joyce's "Ulysses" and "Finnegan's Wake" (two of the most unusual
prose styles I know of) are readable, provided one puts in the
effort; the style follows definite rules and there is a definite
purpose behind it all.

What is so different between:
** Larry Niven inventing out of whole cloth a convenient
"hyperspace" with its "blind spot" and then deciding that a certain
ancient alien race sells us devices that can cause a craft to enter
this space and violate Einstein's theory of relativity, and:
** Tolkien inventing out of whole cloth an enchanted ring with its
own consistent powers, created by an alien race and lost for many
years, now in the possession of a short hairy guy being chased by
minions of an evil lord who wants to use it to conquer the world?

The only difference I see is that in one case one can squint ones
eyes and allow as to how such a thing might come true
scientifically, how one could actually build such devices, while in
the other one must read the story for its own sake, making an
imaginative leap.

Can you really not accept any fiction that could not actually happen
given more-or-less bogus scientific advances?  This is just as
unimaginative and narrow-minded an attitude as exhibited by those
types who dismiss SF as trash because "it can't happen".

Think about it.

Peter Alfke
alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 May 86 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:

      Books - Cherryh & Cruz & Heinlein & Moorcock (3 msgs) &
              Recommendations Request & Story Request,
      Films - Aurora Encounter & The Quiet Earth &
              Killers from Space

Title&&Author: Sentient becomes contact in computer simulation
Movies - "Aurora Encounter"
THE QUIET EARTH
Baaaad movie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 May 86 14:14:44 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Cherryh portrait

   I haven't seen the pb of VISIBLE LIGHT, but it's definitely CJ
herself on the cover of the (Fantasia Press?) hardback, standing in
a spaceship corridor with a couple people I don't recognize (I've
met the artist, who is CJ's brother David, and don't think it's
him). The painting won a special ribbon for "Best Use of a Family
Member" at Boskone; when we first saw it (at Chilicon, last summer)
a friend said her expression reads as "What has my kid brother
gotten me into now?"
   (I \\think// I've got the title right, but there may be two books
he's put her on the cover for. The picture is good but not
flattering; CJ is remarkably unworn-looking for someone who's been
teaching for decades.)
   David Cherry (the 'h' on CJ's name is an attachment) is beginning
to become a success as a commercial SF artist. He got breaks from
Fantasia Press (in addition to the above, they did a special edition
of her two ]elf[ books, ? and THE TREE OF SWORDS AND JEWELS, with
illos by him) and is now getting assignments elsewhere, e.g. the DAW
reissue of Brunner's TIMESCOOP. (I think that particular portrait is
too wimpy even for the mostly-incompetent lead, but Cherry is
definitely going somewhere.)

CHip (Chip Hitchcock)
ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
uu: ...!{cbosgd,seismo!harvard,zeppo}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

From: seismo!gatech!m!r.leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu
Date: 5 May 1986  12:58 EDT
Subject: re: Re: THE AYES OF TEXAS by Daniel da Cruz

                THE AYES OF TEXAS by Daniel da Cruz
                           Del Rey, 1982
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     I thought the stereotyped Texan was a myth.  You know, the guy
who thinks the United States is composed of Texas and some
insignificant periphery lands.  The guy who thinks that Texans are
ten feet tall and that heads eight feet or less off the ground
needlessly complicate world politics. The guy who breaks world
history into the piece before the Alamo and the piece after.  Well,
the guy seems to really exist and he is writing science fiction.
The book is The Ayes of Texas by Daniel da Cruz.  (Curiously enough,
it is published by Del Rey and not Baen.)

     In the late 1990's the deceitful Russians are about the execute
the coup they have been planning for decades.  By exploiting the
American's fuzzy-thinking wish for peace they are going to turn us
into an agricultural country ruled over by them.  They have a plot
so insidious and fiendish that only the President or a Texan can see
through it.  The President cannot oppose the takeover; that leaves
the Texan.

     So a Texan, Gwillam Forte, a three-way amputee, takes up the
task of fixing up the rusty old U.S.S. Texas so it will look all
right for a Texas celebration and instead secretly turns it into the
super-scientific front line of the Free World's naval defenses.

     da Cruz's credentials include having been an American embassy
press attache' in Baghdad, a foreign correspondent, the author of a
history textbook, and thinking that the Soviets are called "the
Russians."  His book somehow lacks an air of authenticity for us
Lilliputian non-Texans.  Early on, da Cruz sets us straight about
the complaints of certain Mexican- Americans, but just to prove how
liberal he is toward minorities, he has positive minority images
like the one with the slightly transparent name Modeljewski.  That
makes Charles Dickens's character naming subtle by comparison.  Some
statement should be made about the technology in THE AYES OF TEXAS
since it is a major part of the book.  It probably is the best
aspect and rings marginally truer than the rest of the book, but I
cannot claim to be enough of a physicist to evaluate it.

     There is no better way to sum up the feel of this rather
strange book than to give you the following extended quote (from
pages 162 and 163):

        "It is for us, your representatives, to propose.  It is for
     you, the people of Texas, to decide.  At this moment, in
     geosynchronous orbit 38,000 kilometers above Texas, the lenses
     of TexComSat 23-LBJ are focused on us.  In exactly five
     minutes"--he consulted his watch--"at 9:25 P.M., all
     power-generating equipment in the State of Texas, except for
     emergency facilities, will be cut.  The state will be in total
     darkness.

        "Those who favor Texas remaining in a union that submits to
     the Russian yoke--if any such there be--will step outside into
     the night and show a light.  A match's flare, a flashlight,
     even the glow of a cigarette, will be picked up and registered
     by TexComSat 23-LBJ and relayed to Earth for instant
     tabulation.  I say again: anyone who wishes to remain a citizen
     of a craven, misguided, gutless United States will step
     outside, and in his loneliness shows his feeble beam."

        He paused.

        "At 9:35 P.M.," he resumed, "just fourteen minutes hence,
     all those in favor of a proud, independent Republic of Texas,
     ready to fight anybody and everybody who denies us the honor we
     will die to preserve, will step proudly out into the velvety
     blackness of the Texas night and light the lamp of freedom..."

        At nine-twenty-five, there were brief, isolated flashes of
     light from one end of Texas to the other.  More often than not,
     they were followed by even briefer flashes as indignant Texans,
     their firearms at the ready for such expressions of disloyalty,
     zeroed in on the dissidents and let fly.  As a test of loyalty
     toward the United States, it was a candle snuffed out in a high
     wind.

        At nine-thirty-five, firehouse sirens wailed in every city
     in the state, and people poured out of houses and apartment
     buildings.  From the Rio Grande to the Oklahoma Panhandle, from
     the borders of Louisiana to the sands of New Mexico fifteen
     hundred kilometers away, the state was ablaze with the light of
     impending battle in twenty million defiant ayes of Texas.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 6 May 86 00:29:52 GMT

ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes:
>       The complete FUTURE HISTORY, with the exception of TIME
>ENOUGH FOR LOVE [and NOtb (gag me with a Libyan thermonuclear
>device)] can be found in the book THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW.  Why
>on Earth RAH called his Future History collection by this name is
>beyond me.  They are also available as individual collections, of
>which the last two are REVOLT IN 2100 and M.C.  (The others escape
>me at the moment.)  TEFL is the last of the official Future
>History, but NOtb is rather like a Heinlein convention -- everyone
>from all of RAH's books show up, at least in the L'Envoi.

Well, just to be picky, there are one or two stories in the
individual collections that aren't in 'The Past through Tomorrow' -
for instance, there is a story 'Let There be Light' that is
definitely in the future history timeline, but got cut somewhere.

Heinlein has gone back and expanded on many of his shorter works
over the years.  I would also recommend a collection called 6xH or
The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag.  This contains the
stories Gulf, and The Man who Traveled in Elephants, arguably
precursors to Friday and Number of the Beast.  [Expanded] Universe
also contains some interesting material...

If you enjoy one or two, go ahead and read everything.  You probably
won't agree with all you read, but it won't hurt you.  Really!

Please excuse any errors in fact - I read the stuff, not write it

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

From: pete@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Farabaugh)
Subject: Eternal Champion
Date: 4 May 86 16:30:43 GMT

Everyone seems to have missed part of the cycle:

   The Sword of Heaven, The Flowers of Hell

     It was a marvel graphic novel written by Moorcock as the third
volume to the Erikose/Urlick/John Daker series.

     I have read the whole cycle exept for these three because I
haven't been able to find the first one (The Eternal Champion). If
anyone can tell me where I can get a copy they can have what's
behind door number 2.

     One of our fine publishing companies (I can't remember which
one) made a brilliant move by rereleasing the second volume but not
the first.

Peter Farabaugh
..topaz!andromeda!pete

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 86 09:37:08 EDT (Monday)
From: Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion
To: ucdavis!cccallan@caip.rutgers.edu

Characters from the Eternal Champion series do appear in 'The
Warhound and the World's Pain', mostly being gods, such as Xiombarg.

The Bastable series does tie into others, with Bastable & Una
Persson appearing or being mentioned in the Erekose series, the
Cornelius series, and the Dancers at the End of Time, as well as in
the Corum series.

I always considered the Elric stories in 'Elric at the End of Time'
to be more whimsical Elric stories than proper parts of the cycle.
In one of his notes, Moorcock says he wrote the End of Time one
simply to try out a suggestion someone once made.

Chris

------------------------------

From: h-sc2!samson@caip.rutgers.edu (greg samson)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 5 May 86 07:35:34 GMT

gandalf@ihuxl.UUCP (Schurman) writes:
>The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order)
>
>1. The Warlord of the Air
>2. The Land Leviathan
>3. The Steel Tsar

I was once informed that these novels were written, not by the
Michael Moorcock who wrote all the Eternal Champion books, but by
his grandfather, or father, or some older male relative who had the
same name.

Is this true, or do these books actually link to the Eternal
Champion series?

G. T. Samson
BITNET: gts@harvunxw [preferred] OR samson@harvunxu
ARPA:   gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU or samson%h-sc2@harvard.HARVARD.EDU
USMail: Lowell N-44, Harvard U., Cambridge, MA 02138

------------------------------

From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee)
Subject: Would you recommend a book for me to read?
Date: 5 May 86 10:48:31 GMT

I want to do something terribly selfish: I want to describe my
particular taste in books and then hope that y'all will read it and
suggest something to me that fits any pattern that you see. Drop me
a line if you have a suggestion, or if you want to know what folks
have suggested to me.

Next comes some lists of authors I like and don't like.

None of these lists is complete, but they probably contain enough
clues.

Favorite mainline authors:

Jane Austen             (I've read everything twice)
Chaim Potok             (Haven't liked his recent stuff)
Hemmingway              (don't like too many war details)
Steinbeck
James Joyce             (but not Finnigan's Wake)
Marilyn French

Fantasy I like:

J.R.R. Tolkein          (I feel silly even mentioning it)
Kathryn Kurtz           Deryni books
Patricia McKillup       Riddlemaster books
David Eddings           Belgariad
Marion Zimmer Bradley   (Mists of Avalon, only)

Sci-Fi I like:

John Varley
Joe Haldeman
Joan D Vinge    (Snow Queen, I loved)
Usula Le Guine
Kate Wilhelm    (Sweet Birds, I loved)
Frank Herbert   (some subset of the Dune books)
Zelazny         (though it's been long since I read any)
Gene Wolfe      (when I'm in the right mood)
C.J.Cherryh     (but only some--liked Gehenna, didn't Down Below
   Station)

Fantasy and Sci-fi I hate:

Heinlein (sp?)
Stephen Donaldson
Piers Anthony
E.R. Eddison    (though it's been long since I tried Oroboros)
Whoever wrote that Gromengast stuff
Whoever wrote that Warlock in spite of himself stuff
Anything that's about machines and science only and not their affect
    on people

Tracy Larrabee  tracy@su-sushi.stanford.edu     decwrl!larrabee

------------------------------

From: tolerant!waynet@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Thompson)
Subject: Title&&Author: Sentient becomes contact in computer
Subject: simulation
Date: 5 May 86 00:39:32 GMT

I recall reading a short story which involved a computer simulation
of a society in which the only practicable contact between reality
and computer simulation was through a sentient entity within the the
simulation. Any pointers would be welcome.

Wayne Thompson
..{bene,mordor,nsc,oliveb,pyramid,ucbvax}!tolerant!waynet

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 1986 11:50-PDT
Subject: Movies - "Aurora Encounter"
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

Review - Save your money.  Reminiscent of the 1950s.  Hollywood must
be hard up for "new" plots.  No action - I sat through the whole
movie waiting for something to happen - nothing ever did.  The best
part of the movie was the three little girls.  Supposedly based on a
true incident in a small Texas town in the late 1800s with a Texas
ranger playing the heavy.  The ending was straight out of "ET".

Faye (Wilbur@Office-2)

------------------------------

Subject: THE QUIET EARTH
Date: Mon, 05 May 86 17:36:41 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
Cc: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.EDU

AT LAST a good sf film.  This film has great "sense of wonder" and
is refreshingly *different* from U.S. movies.  I think that any
complaints about "science", etc. are groundless.  The "science" in
this movie is at least as plausible as ftl (not to mention time
travel).  Although the movie does not try to be futuristic, it is
completely ambiguous about its time setting.  I was able to suspend
my disbelief and enjoy the movie (wow!).

About the protagonists: it pays to realize that they are not
entirely "stable", "normal", or "rational" before the events of the
movie, much less after.

If forced to rate this on the -4 to +4 scale (relative to other sf
movies), it would rate a +3.  If you wonder where these opinions are
coming from, I'll say that my favorite recent sf movies are "1984",
"Blade Runner", "Scanners", and "Star Trek II" (and "The Quiet
Earth").

Watch out for this for this movie.  The poster is fantasic,
regardless of whether or not you like the movie.

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: 05-May-1986 1103
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (From the terminal of Brendan
From: E. Boelke)
Subject: Baaaad movie

                   *** POSSIBLE MILD SPOILER ***

        I have never replied to any of the surveys taken on Best or
Worst [author, book, movie, ...], and I realize that the last Worst
SF Movie poll was a long time ago, but - have you ever seen "Killers
from Space"?  This was probably the most ridiculous movie I have
ever had the pleasure to watch from a hotel room.  It was so bad it
was fun.  It starred Peter Graves and the main plot was that the
aliens were living under our Arizona nuclear testing grounds during
the tests of the 50's and 60's and were capturing much of the
released energy, as well as breeding giant insects and reptiles for
their 'army'.

        The best line of the night belongs to my friend whom I
watched it with.  The first time we saw the 'aliens', who had large
eyes due to their sun cooling (the eyes were the type you buy for
Halloween - you know, the ping pong ball with a hole cut in it),
after we stopped laughing, my friend suggested that they were from
the 'Planet of Feldman'.  If you've seen the movie, you know what I
mean.  Now I know why Mr. Phelps accepted all those missions.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 May 86 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cylixd!elf@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Bottleman)
Subject: Re: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth
Date: 2 May 86 15:34:56 GMT

>From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
>of Morgoth's fortress Thangorabadrim during the destruction of
>Beleriand

Thangorodrim is the name of the "Mountains of Tyranny" raised by
Morgoth to protect Angband ("Iron Prison"), his northwest fortress
(usually left in control of Sauron) (Sil.,p47).

>Of the other Races of Middle Earth
[A good summary of the other races of Middle Earth, and their origins]
>Morgoth echoed Aule's sin, but his creatures were all derivative:
>Orcs from Elves and Men, Trolls from Dwarves, the Balrogs from
>Valar;

Morgoth created his orcs from Elves; it was Saruman who mixed the
races of Man and Orc - remember that even the Ents were surprised
upon hearing what Saruman had done (Sil.,p50;LotR II,pp76-77).

The Trolls were made in mockery of the Ents (LotR II,p89).

The Balrogs were Maiar that Morgoth convinced to join and serve him,
but Morgoth did not create them (Sil.,p31).

>Ents were probably the creation of Yavanna, Aule's consort and
>mistress of trees.

Yavanna does say that in the Song of the Ainur she heard the voices
of the Ents (not named as such, however), but it isn't clear that it
was she that first thought of them.  It is clear, however, that
Yavanna did not physically create the Ents (like Aule did with the
Dwarves), since she went to Manwe to express her concerns that there
wouldn't be anyone in Middle Earth to protect the trees (Yavanna was
the creator of animal and plant life).  (Sil.,pp45-46).

Leonard Bottleman
ihnp4!akgua!cylixd!elf

------------------------------

From: gds@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question
Date: 4 May 86 01:31:56 GMT

olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) writes:
> The recent discussion of Wizards in Lord of the Rings reminds me
> of a passage in LOTR that I've wondered about for some time.  In
> the orc-tower of Cirith Ungol, Snaga tells Shagrat
>
>   "...There's a great fighter about, one of those
>   bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_."

'tark' is a Black Speech corruption of a word which in the Common
Speech means "man of Gondor".  The word is derived from a word which
in Quenya means "high".  Tar- was the prefix of all the Numenorean
kings who did not openly speak out against or disobey the Valar.
Check the Tolkien Companion for the exact word, I think it was
"tarkil" or "tarcil".  The orcs may have very well been talking
about Aragorn when he visited Mordor after his service for Gondor
and the Steward Ecthelion, or any of the men of Gondor who used to
fight in the service of Steward Denethor.

Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, allegra, gatech, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
gds@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu (          LAK)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 3 May 86 17:52:27 GMT

In Unfinished Tales (compiled by Tolkien's son Christopher) there is
a chapter which deals with this. Tolkien's notes contain a lot of
information on the Wizards, or Istari, who they were, why they came
and what their authority was. It says that Olorin was sent by the
Valar (powerful godlike beings) as one of the Wizards. The Wizards
were Maiar, spirits like the Valar but less powerful, capable of
taking material form. Five total were sent, including Saruman the
White, Radagast the Brown, Gandalf the Grey, and two others (blue)
who went into the East and somehow abandoned their mission, much
like Saruman.

Larry

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Even more LOtR (I think I've OD'd!  :-)
Date: 3 May 86 14:13:15 GMT

From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>OK, here's the scoop on Gandalf.  Somewhere in _Return of the King_
>when (I believe) Aragorn is talking to someone else about Gandalf,
>the other says, "Yes, he said to me, 'I am Mithrandir to the Elves,
>Gandalf to men, and Olorin in the West that is forgotten'" (or
>something like that).  The key here is Olorin.  A little background
>is necessary to explain this...

Nope.  Faramir speaking to Frodo in Ithilien, recalling what Gandalf
said to him as a child:

``Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was
in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in
the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.''

>Oh, and I'd also like to hear an explanation of Gandalf's comment
>how "Merry, of all of us, was the closest".

A little license on Gandalf's part.  ``What does it'' (really)
``mean by `Speak, friend, and enter?' ''

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 3 May 86 23:06:01 GMT

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>were Ainur (Tolkien's mythology equivalent of angels or saints.
>Sauron was one, as well, and, I believe, the Balrogs) so had the
>power to

The Balrogs were Ainur corrupted by Melkor and/or(?) Sauron if my
memory serves me correctly.  I think this was done after Melkor made
his citadel in the north.  I forget the name of
that...Ang(something)....

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
UUCP  : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan
CSNET : jrsheridan%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
ARPA  : jrsheridan%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Gandalf & Galadriel
Date: 3 May 86 23:30:07 GMT

>He never really takes on drastically different forms but after his
>incident in Moria with the balrog he takes on his bright white
>form.  He also on occasion takes on an enlarged form in order to
>intimidate a particular character.
>   There is also a passage in The Fellowship of the Ring in
>which . . .  Galadriel's true form, that of an ancient elven woman,
>is revealed to Frodo.  Galadriel was also in possession of one of
>the three elven rings of power (Elrond possessed the third), and it
>was this ring that allowed her to maintain her youthful appearance.
>I assume Gandalf used his ring in a similar manner except he chose
>an appearance more suited to his style and needs.

Two points to make here...

1.  When Gandalf battled the Balrog in Moria, he did not survive
    unscathed.  In fact, he "died" as much as a Maia can.  When he
    came back and met Pippin and Merry, he responded to their
    questions about if he was Gandalf by saying that he WAS know by
    that name before.  As far as I can tell, he came back in another
    form after being rejuvenated by Iluvatar, maybe.

2.  Galadriel's appearance was never altered when she wore the ring.
    The ring gave her certain powers which she used to create a
    safe, beautiful land around her, but seldom more than that.  The
    three Elven rings were hidden from Sauron and they dared not use
    them openly for fear he would attempt to recover them.  The
    vision Frodo was given was just that, a vision to show him what
    she "could" become, not what she was.

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
UUCP  : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan
CSNET : jrsheridan%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
ARPA  : jrsheridan%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: There IS an inconsistency in the West-gate inscription
Date: 4 May 86 03:03:22 GMT

Many of you seem to like finding errors or inconsistencies in _The
Lord of the Rings_.  Well, I found that there is indeed an error in
the drawing in the surviving copies of the Red Book; and it was
faithfully transcribed and is there for all to see.  It is quite
obvious once it has been explained, though I confess I did not
discover it myself: Caranfin pointed it out to me the other day as I
was speaking to him of the recent discussion here on
inconsistencies.  Rather than spoil the search for you, I have
decided to post this short note and let you guess.  In about a week
I shall post the answer.  Guess away!

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: So much for writing w/o a reference...
Date: 3 May 86 14:06:00 GMT

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
>Of Gandalf the Istar In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as
>an Istari, one of five Wizards who appeared in Middle Earth after
>the Fall of Numenor, sent from beyond the sundering seas to aid
>Middle Earth in its struggle against Sauron.  Saruman is "the head
>of the order" which together with Elrond and Galadriel formed the
>White Council to fight the Necromancer.  The only other named
>Istari is Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals.

The other two, the Blue wizards, went off ``into the east'' and were
never seen again.

>The Elvish tales of the creation of the world recorded in "The
>Silmarillion" explain that Iluvatar (ie, God) together with the
>Valar and Mayar (two orders of angels) created the world.  Some of
>these divine beings

     That's ``Maiar''

>chose to live on it; but the chief Vala, Morgoth, turned against
>Iluvatar

``Morgoth'' was the Elvish name for the Vala Melkur.


>and corrupted the earth.  The Vala Lorien, a healer, had a Maya
>follower named Olorin.  In LotR, Elrond says that one of Gandalf's
>names is Olorin; notes in "The Silmarillion" identify Olorin with
>Gandalf, which makes him, and presumably the other Istari, Mayar
>sent by the Valar to Middle Earth.  Sauron is also a Maya, one of
>Morgoth's subordinates; he escaped the fall of Morgoth's fortress
>Thangorabadrim during the destruction of Beleriand

   That's Thangorodrim
(Read your references better.)

>at the end of the First Age, when Morgoth was banished from Middle
>Earth by a coalition of Elves, Men and Valar.  The only other Maya
>mentioned at length is Melian, the mother of Luthien Tinuviel,
>Aragorn's ancestress.
>
>Of the other Races of Middle Earth Besides the races of Valar and
>Mayar, which were divine beings, Iluvatar created immortal Elves
>and mortal Men.  Elves never leave Middle Earth;

Except insofar as Tol Eressea is not accessible to non-Elves (save
for special dispensation, as in the case of the Ring-Bearers).  (Of
course Gandalf is allowed; he is, after all, a Maia.)

>if they are killed they enter the Halls of the Vala Mandos for a
>time, then reappear.  Men "pass beyond the circles of the world" at
>death.  The Dwarves were the creation of Aule, a Vala whose primary
>care was the minerals and mountains; but he couldn't make them do
>any more than echo his own thoughts.  In creating a sentient race,
>he tresspassed on Iluvatar's territory; when confronted by Iluvatar
>he reluctantly agreed to give up the dwarves to destruction.
>Iluvatar instead blessed them and gave them truly independent
>existence.  Morgoth echoed Aule's sin, but his creatures were all
>derivative: Orcs from Elves and Men, Trolls from Dwarves, the
>Balrogs

That's Ents not Dwarves.

Treebeard speaking to Merry and Pippin:

``Maybe you have heard of Trolls?  They are mighty strong.  But
Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great
Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves.''

>from Valar; dragons were a mix of various animals.  Ents were
>probably the creation of Yavanna, Aule's consort and mistress of
>trees.  Tolkien does not say who was responsible for the creation
>of hobbits.

I seem to remember one of the lesser Houses of Men being somewhat
shorter than the others, and tending toward hairy feet.  In the time
of the SILMARILLION they lived in a wood.  (This may be/probably is
wrong; I don't have the SILMARILLION with me to check.)

>Sources: LotR and the Hobbit, of course; "The Silmarillion",
>"Unfinished Tales", "The Book of Lost Tales" (in two volumes);
>various dictionaries for terms from Middle Earth; Tolkien's Letters
>and Biography (H. Carpenter).

Read 'em better next time.

>Tolkien's inspiration for the way his world works is largely Judeo-
>Christian, with medieval elements; a lot of the details come from
>the northern European legends (the names of the dwarves, and even
>Gandalf, are straight out of the Elder Edda; a lot of the hobbit's
>names -- Froda,

Froda?

Interesting that in all of this discussion of language similarities,
your typo reflects the ``real'' situation: hobbits use the -a and -e
for males, -o for females, contrary to most others then and now.
Tolkien ``converted'' them, again, to make them seem more familiar.
(Much more of a reading of these things and I'll be convinced that
he's writing about something that really happened!  Tolkien doesn't
believe in half-designed worlds, does he?)

>Meriadoc, Isengrim -- are from Merovingian French; the Roharrim
>have Anglo-Saxon roots).  Lucas's Star Wars universe has a world
>order like

At least as far as languages go, the Appendix to LOtR says that
Tolkien ``translated names and words to the modern historical
equivalent''.  (Not a quote.)

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: OOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: 3 May 86 22:33:17 GMT

This should teach me to flame someone for accuracy!!!

Recently I corrected some mistakes in a posting about Gandalf and
the Maiar.  One of the ``corrections'' went like:

Subject: So much for writing w/o a reference...

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>

>>chose to live on it; but the chief Vala, Morgoth, turned against
>>Iluvatar
>
>  That's Melkur

That should be MelkOr

Oops.  I *did* mention I didn't have the SILMARILLION at the time; I
have since gotten my hands on it... and discovered that a
search-associative-for-evil-being-like "Melk*" retrieved from the
wrong files (anyone care to guess which one?) :-) BIG OOPS! ! !

g/Melkur/s//Melkor/g :-)

(Mea culpa.)

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  5 May 86 23:21:35 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: (Tolkien) Inscription on door

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
> why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words
> aloud, either while reading them initially or while explaining the
> situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the
> word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's
> opening? ...

Yes, it was "mellon".  The answer is simple---Gandalf didn't think
to, or didn't think he had to.  He didn't bother uttering the words
out loud, because he didn't have to think too hard to translate
them.  I don't even think he thought to read the inscription on the
door until Merry asked him what it said.  Then he said (in the
Common Tongue, which of course wouldn't trigger the opening spell)
something like "Oh it just says 'Speak, friend, and enter'" and went
on to explain that that indicated there was some secret password
that needed to be used (something he already knew).  Remember, after
he finally realized what the word was, he said something like "Merry
had the right idea all along" indicating that he should have paid
more attention to what was really inscribed on the door.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 86 0743-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:

       Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Elgin & Ellison & Hambly &
               Heinlein & Lieber & Moorcock & Powers &
               Robinson & Varley (2 msgs) & SF Poll &
               Codex Seraphinianus,
       Films - Star Wars & Legend & James Bond,
       Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST
Subject: humor, flames, catching up....
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

Having lost access 6 months ago, I just got back to a position where
I can read SFL...catching up when the current file is too large for
the local mail program or editors involved TYPING the file at 1200
baud, and no way to go backwards...3 hours later, I'm slightly
bemused (no, thats vastly befuddled) but perhaps I can organize
thoughts for at least a few topics.

Whereas someone's guess that Xanth might have been the series Spider
Robinson meant when talking about a well known author writing an
awful book on a bet, yet being forced to continue by the readers and
publisher's demands... WAS a good guess, it was wrong.  Randy Murray
got it right, it was ERB and the Tarzan books, I asked Spider when
he came to Bubonicon '84 in Albuquerque.  Further comments about the
author of Xanth are inspired because another poster actually spoke
favorably about the Tarot books.  Consider the series FLAMED.  I was
too exasperated by Tarot to read another Piers Anthony book for
years.  (I still haven't done so, though you people are edging me
mighty close to trying the Incarnations of Immortality.)  This was
not a snap judgement of Anthony; when I read the Tarot books, I'd
read three of Xanth and while it worked for one or two books...then
we'd been exposed to the rantings of a shorter-than-average
stablehand who never outgrew his inferiority complex (about his
HEIGHT, ferchrisake) for three more limited books (the Apprentice
Adept books)...Tarot was merely the last straw.  This was long after
I'd tried and enjoyed Macroscope, Chthon, Omnivore; the Battle
Circle books recently mentioned favorably were the first by Piers
Anthony I ever read.  I can even accept the Kirlian books though I
admit I've only read three of them (what is it, five now?)  I saw
the Tarot books as some hack trying to prove how 'deep' he could be.
Failing.  I was seriously exasperated and, looking back at Tarot,
Xanth, and Apprentice Adept, I gave up on Anthony.  Flame off.

So somebody, please make the final effort and convince me that
Incarnations is worth reading, or not...

Its good to be back!

Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf
Date: 5 May 86 21:08:59 GMT

kay@warwick.UUCP (Kay Dekker) writes:
>As for funnies: try PROSTHO PLUS by Piers Anthony... a zany story
>about a prosthodontist who becomes the property of aliens.  It
>*still* makes me roll about on the floor even after the zillionth
>reading.

There is a whole series of short stories about this character; I
think one of the stories is called "Getting into University", and
it's definitely in his collection _Anthonology_.  I don't normally
enjoy Anthony's writing, but these stories are really good.

Michael Justice
BITNet:  boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm
ARPANet: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay
UUCP:    ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
CSNET:   boreas%bucsb%bu-cs

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST
Subject: humor, flames, catching up....
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

C Wingate mentioned The Ozark trilogy.  I have the middle book of a
trilogy by one of my favorite authors (Suzette Hadin Elgin) and
can't find the first or third...I think it may be this Ozark
trilogy.  Does ANYBODY know the titles and have any lines to actual
copies?  If anyone can sell me the books...

Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

From: dg_rtp!meissner@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Meissner)
Subject: Re: Time is Money
Date: 5 May 86 23:11:59 GMT

colonel@ellie.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) writes:
>An old idea.  I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized
>in (F&SF?) in the 70's.  It was about a planet where morality was
>enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in
>newborns' brains.  One person held the controls.  Anybody remember
>it?  I think it was nomi- nated for some prize or other.

Sounds like "Die said the Ticktock Man" by Harlan Ellison.

------------------------------

From: kyrimis@tilt.FUN (Kriton Kyrimis)
Subject: Re: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly
Date: 5 May 86 05:28:18 GMT

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
>Well, there are other indirect references to TV shows/movies
>(mostly westerns and SF):
>
>1.  When Kirk and McCoy are in the spaceport debating Spock's
>mission, Kirk's attention is attracted by a barroom brawl between a
>scruffy looking spice pirate and two fighter pilots in brown
>jackets from some down-at-the-heels migrant fleet.  The image of
>Han Solo tangling with Apollo and Starbuck is priceless: I just
>wish I knew who had won.

Well, this one was too subtle for me to notice, but now that you
pointed it out, it is sort of obvious. There seems to be more to
this, however. The fight mentioned above was about a girl who, while
those guys were fighting, "finished her drink and departed on the
arm of a tall, curly-haired man in the eccentric garb typical of
space-tramps".  I wonder whether part of this eccentric garb was a
12 foot scarf!!!

Kriton  (princeton!tilt!kyrimis)

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 5 May 86 22:42:14 GMT

ins_apmj@jhunix.UUCP (Patrick M Juola) writes:
>   The complete FUTURE HISTORY, with the exception of TIME ENOUGH
>FOR LOVE [and NOtb (gag me with a Libyan thermonuclear device)] can
>be found in the book THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW.  Why on Earth RAH
>called his Future History collection by this name is beyond me.
>They are also available as

Heinlein got stuck with it and couldn't get away.  Blame goes to (I
believe) John W. Campbell, in an editorial (?) in Astounding.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST
Subject: humor, flames, catching up....
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

I've seen a few mentions of Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
series... now I'll commit a sin.  I shall give an incomplete
reference.  Another FGM story has been written and I stumbled on it
in some anthology 4,5,6 months back.  However, being in my office, I
can't look up the anthology.  I shall try to remedy that soon.
Sorry, fans.

Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 6 May 86 07:20:28 GMT

ajb@mruxe.UUCP (A J Burstein) writes:
>> Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect
>> with everything else he's written?
>
>Actually, Moorcock has written some good books that don't involve
>the Eternal Champion (unless you REALLY stretch it).  One is called
>Behold the Man, and I think that it won a Nebula.  It's about time
>travel and Jesus Christ.  Another one, a personal favorite, is The
>War Hound and the World's Pain.  This one takes place in the Thirty
>Years War.
>
>I suppose that the Eternal Champion is now officially linked to The
>Dancers at the End of Time by the short story "Elric at the End of
>Time" (I'm not kidding).  It's recently published in a paperback
>collection of short stories under the same name.

I haven't read "War Hound" yet, so I can't comment, but "Behold the
Man is connected to the others.  Firstly Glauckauer (sp.) appears in
a couple of other books, especially "Breakfast In the Ruins".
Secondly, the time machine in BtM is the same one as the one Jherakh
Carnelian uses in "An Alien Heat".  Very cute, I thought when I read
it. . .

Soren Petersen

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST
Subject: humor, flames, catching up....
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

A SHORT remark on humor in SF: the entire premise of an engaging
work much praised in this forum, The Drawing of the Dark by Tim
Powers, is treated so seriously, treated so well...that you actually
have to step back from the book to see how FUNNY it is...the
MAGICAL, POTENT ELIXIR which will RESTORE THE KING and SAVE THE WEST
is...no, I can't even give it away.  I just won't spoil that one for
anybody.  Read it and laugh.

Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1986 17:45:50 PST
Subject: humor, flames, catching up....
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

Those of you who haven't yet followed recommendations to try Spider
Robinson's Night of Power ought to...someone flamed about the cover.
True, it (the cover) is terrible.  But be warned: the book was
SCARIER than a bunch of hoods from Harlem.  I mean, the problems
cited in this book DO exist and COULD get as bad as he says.  But I
DON'T see his solution coming true.  That leaves us with the
problems.  This book REALLY scared me.

Doug (dolson @ ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Varley's characters
Date: 6 May 86 05:34:40 GMT

>As far as I can remember, all of John Varley's stories have had
>female main characters.  Does anyone know of one of his stories in
>which the protagonist is female?

Assuming you mean "male" in the last sentence, "Overdrawn at the
Memory Bank".

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 86  9:58:30 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cca.bbn.com>
Subject: Varley's Characters
Cc: ihnp4!mruxe!ajb@cca.bbn.com

Yes, Varley's main characters are often female, but not exclusively
so.  Offhand, "The Persistence of Vision" comes to mind, which I'm
fairly sure has a male viewpoint character.  Not to mention many of
his characters who change sex every now and then, for variety.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 6 May 86 06:53:10-CDT
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #103

Re: Survey
All Time Favorite:  Glory Road - Heinlein
Favorite Author:  Asimov
Hardest To Put Down:  LOTR - Tolkien
Best With Computers:  Press Enter - John Varley
Most Interesting/Unusual:  Repent Harlequin... - Harlan Ellison
Best Series:  BOTNS - Wolfe
Best Written:  Native Language - Suzette Haden Elgin
Other Bokooks/Humor:  Callahan's Crosstime Saloon - Spider Robinson
Best SF:  The Kif Strike Back - C J Cherryh
Worst Recent Book:  TCWWTW - Heinlein
Flames For:  People who answer surveys with more than one item
    per question; if you can't decide, disappear til you can!
Tribute To:  People who write clear concise reviews/recommendations.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 May 86 10:01:35 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cca.bbn.com>
Subject: Codex Seraphinianus

    Yes, it is a wonderful book.  Yes, it was horribly expensive
when it was issued (about $70, I think).  Yes, you can get a copy
for less.  I got my copy for $29.95 from Publishers Central Bureau.
This suggests that it has been remaindered.  PCB continues to
advertise it in their catalogues, and I suspect that diligent
searching will turn it up on remainder tables of large bookstores,
and in those bookstores that specialize in remainders.
    Others have pointed out that it's written in an invented
language; however, there is a small amount of natural human language
in it.  If you have the book, look on the page with the man with a
fountain-pen arm.  The writing in his notebook is in French.  A
French friend translated this for us as having something to do with
"orgy girls", or "the girls who go to orgies" ("les filles
orgiaque", if I remember the French correctly), but she and her
brother couldn't agree on what the rest of the text meant.  I wonder
if this is Luigi Serafini projecting himself into the universe of
the Codex -- the writer who is writing something in an alien
language?

Morris
keesan@bbncci.arpa
{ihnp4,decvax,etc}!bbncca!keesan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 86 08:04 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: LOTR & Star Wars

To Scott Schneider: Most of your arguments were based on taking
"Star Wars" to mean "The Star Wars Trilogy" while I, and perhaps the
original questioner, was referring only to the first movie.  The
later movies changed the whole face of the mythos, something that
was certainly necessary to cash in on SW's popularity.

I, for one, don't think Luke's family had anything to do with the
first movie -- that this dad and sis bit (I love the fannish
theories at that time, mostly based on the line about the "Clone
Wars" where, yes, Darth was Luke's father, but he was also is
brother, uncle and great-grandfather.  And Yoda was is mother.) were
concocted long after Star Wars became a phenomena.

Of course Luke's quest had to change, if you're going to make an
epic into a series!

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Mon 5 May 86 13:49:13-EDT
From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Legend

Regarding the movie "Legend":

I saw it twice and thoroughly enjoyed it both times.  I would like
to address certain comments:

>There's some sort of ritual involving throwing a ring into a river,
>but it relavence to saving the universe is completely lost.

The Princess threw the ring into the LAKE as a test to Tom Cruise
("I will marry whoever finds this ring" or something like that).  It
has nothing to do with saving the universe.  While Tom is looking
for it, winter begins to take over the land (due to the male
unicorn's death) and he is caught under the ice.  Therefore, he
can't get the ring back until the end of the movie when the ice
thaws.

>We're led to believe that by somehow reflecting some sunlight off a
>chain of platters to get it down into hell will help fight Satan
>off.  When the light finally arrives, it (a) blows the doors off
>the wall, and (b) has no effect on Satan at all so the hero has to
>use his kung foo to save the day.

The light is reflected into Curry's lair by the platters and does
blow the door off.  By this time, Tom has beaten Darkness back into
a corner, so when the light does stream into the room, it blows
Satan into nothingness (represented by space).  Our hero does not
use kung fu.

And, finally my own question:

Has anyone actually seen the European version ?  I was not aware
that the movie I saw was hacked (and I liked the music by Tangerine
Dream and John Anderson).  I am just curious as to what was cut out.

My Summary: I liked it alot - go to see it as a fantasy film and you
will enjoy it.

See you in the movies !!

Eric J. Simon
Wesleyan University

------------------------------

From: Robert Hunter <hunter%vax2.acs.udel.edu@Louie.UDEL.EDU>
Date: Monday, May 5, 1986 8:44AM EDT
Subject: Bond Chronology

        I'm looking for a title listing of all the Bond films
beginning with "Dr. No" and ending with "A View To a Kill" along
with the year they were released. Can anyone oblige?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 May 86 10:22 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters

I have been collecting the recipes for Terran approximations of the
PGGB and am willing to mail them to anyone requesting them (or to
post them again if there seems to be a need).  Maybe these should
become an archived item.

Jon
pugh#jon%mfe@lll-mfe.arpa
pugh%ccv@lll-mfe.arpa
pugh#jon@lll-mfe.arpa (least used)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 86 0819-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #108
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:

              Books - Harrison & Heinlein & Moorcock &
                      Animals in Books & Booklist,
              Films - Star Wars,
              Television - Star Trek & Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mecc!sewilco@caip.rutgers.edu (Scot E. Wilcoxon)
Subject: Re: flying telephone switchboards
Date: 2 May 86 19:41:26 GMT

chris@maryland.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes:
>kwh@bentley.UUCP (KW Heuer) writes:
>>I remember a book called "The Brass Dragon" (I think) in which one
>>of the humanoid aliens says to the primitive Terran "Yes, we use
>>sliderules too -- of course they're much more powerful than
>>yours."
>...
>[and now, wildly out of context:] Those of you who think of slide
>rules as `primitive' should consider also this: The batteries in a
>slide rule never wear out.

Slide rules are powered by decimal points.  That's why you keep
losing them near an operating slide rule. :-)

The powerful slide rules reminds me of the "powerful radio
receivers", including one powerful crystal radio, a running joke in
Harry Harrison's satire "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers".  All
the aliens speak English by listening to them. "Though you
apparently have received none of our answering broadcasts,
undoubtedly because of the inferiority of your receivers."

Copyright 1973 by Harry Harrison
"This book may not be reproduced in whole or in part,
by mimeograph or any other means, without permission."

Scot E. Wilcoxon  Minn. Ed. Comp. Corp.       quest!mecc!sewilco
45 03 N / 93 08 W   (612)481-3507   {ihnp4,philabs}!mecc!sewilco

------------------------------

From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Cutter John)
Subject: Heinlein quote
Date: 5 May 86 17:36:52 GMT

A while ago, I saw a quote from a book by Robert Heinlein that I
thought was quite funny, but I wasn't able to get a copy of it.  Can
anyone send me the quote in its entirety?  The last line of it was
"And what the hell: they caught him."  I'm sure it's a Heinlein
classic, but I'm not a Heinlein fan per se.

Jim Griffith

------------------------------

Date: Tue 6 May 86 23:51:00-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Moorcock's Eternal Champion

There are so many Eternal Champion novels because Moorcock wrote
them quickly.  In interviews he has confessed to sending out several
novels in first draft, having them accepted, and never seeing them
again.  He had, quite simply, never read his own book.

Books such as "Gloriana" and "The Warhound and the World's Pain"
strike me as being more carefully crafted.

Don Lindsay
Tartan Laboratories

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 1986 10:50-PDT
Subject: Re: Animals,animals,animals
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

Two authors that have used "earth " animals are Andre Norton and Ted
White.  Andre Norton has used cats in many of her books for years.
Ted White used wolves in both "Star Wolf" and "Phoenix Prime".

Faye
(Wilbur@Office-2)

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Other Change Of Hobbit booklist (Part I)
Date: 6 May 86 20:25:56 GMT

    This is the March booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit.

The Other Change of Hobbit
2433 Channing Way
Berkeley, CA  94704
(415) 848-0413

Booklist #7
April 1986

If you saw this list in an electronic medium, please mention that
when you place your order.  Thanks.

Hardcovers and Trade Paperbacks

Aldiss, Brian W.        ... AND THE LURID GLARE OF THE COMET
                           More "Articles and Autobiography";
                           companion volume to THE PALE SHADOW OF
                           SCIENCE.  Recommended.
Asimov, Isaac (ed.)     THE HUGO WINNERS VOLUME 5, 1980-1982
Asimov, Isaac, M. H.    SHERLOCK HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE
    Greenberg & C. G.      Reprint 1985 hardcover.  Theme
    Waugh (eds.)           anthology.
Baum, L. Frank          THE WIZARD OF OZ
    (Michael Patrick       Reprint 1983 hardcover; this critical
    Hearn, ed.)            edition includes the text of the book
                           with the original W. W. Denslow
                           illustrations in the first 132 pages.
                           The remaining 174 pages collect
                           contemporaneous essays and current
                           critiques by James Thurber, Paul Gallico,
                           Martin Gardner, Ray Bradbury, Gore Vidal
                           and others.
Benford, Gregory        IN ALIEN FLESH
                           A fine (and long overdue) hard science
                           fiction short story collection.
[Boucher, Anthony]      BOUCHER:  A FAMILY PORTRAIT
    Phyllis White &        A very handsome 20+ page pamphlet
    Lawrence White         collecting some oral history about
                           one of sf's great editor/writer/critics.
Brooks, Terry           MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE - SOLD!
Card, Orson Scott       SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD
                           Sequel to ENDER'S GAME.  ("Much more
                           complex and subtle than ENDER'S GAME,
                           with very skillful use of various forms
                           of culture shock.  Guaranteed to be one
                           of the best novels of 1986." - Debbie and
                           Dave)
Cherryh, C. J.          VISIBLE LIGHT
                           Signed, slipcased edition limited to 300
                           copies Short story collection with new
                           connective material and one previously
                           unpublished story.  Contains the Hugo
                           winner "Cassandra".
Cherryh, C. J. and      THE GATES OF HELL
    Janet Morris           "The first full-length novel set in
                           Janet Morris' Hell..."  Apparently last
                           month's "braided mega-novel" wasn't
                           full-length.  Individual chapters in this
                           novel are copyrighted separately.
                           "Basileus", by both authors, previously
                           appeared in HEROES IN HELL (and as a
                           teaser at the back of RHIALTO THE
                           MARVELOUS by Jack Vance).  ("I liked it,
                           much to my own surprise."  - Jennifer)
Clarke, Arthur C.       THE SONGS OF DISTANT EARTH
                           Novel based on the 1958 short story of
                           the same title.
Dahl, Roald             ROALD DAHL'S REVOLTING RHYMES
                           Reprint 1983 hardcover; delightful
                           color illustrations by Quentin Blake.
Dick, Philip K.         THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover; early mainstream
                           novel published posthumously.
Eddings, David          THE BELGARIAD I
                           Collects PAWN OF PROPHECY (1982), QUEEN
                           OF SORCERY (1982) and MAGICIAN'S GAMBIT
                           (1983).
                        THE BELGARIAD II
                           Collects CASTLE OF WIZARDRY (1984) and
                           ENCHANTER'S ENDGAME (1984).  Beautiful
                           British hardcover editions, with jackets
                           by Chris Achilleos.
Feist, Raymond E.       A DARKNESS AT SETHANON
                           The Finale of the Riftwar Saga, following
                           MAGICIAN and SILVERTHORN.
Gibson, William         COUNT ZERO
                           Connected to NEUROMANCER.  ["A bit of a
                           disappointment - not enough of the
                           'magic' that NEUROMANCER had.  Still
                           interesting; just not spectacular." -
                           Tom)
Gribbin, John           IN SEARCH OF THE BIG BANG:  QUANTUM PHYSICS
                        AND COSMOLOGY
Hubbard, L. Ron         BLACK GENESIS
                           Mission Earth Volume 2 (of 10).
Johnson, Denis          FISKADORO
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover.
Lem, Stanislaw          ONE HUMAN MINUTE
                           Three long "reviews" of not-yet-written
                           books.
Lynn, Elizabeth A.      THE SILVER HORSE
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover (only $2.00 less
                           than the hardcover!).  Ask us about the
                           varying states on this one (but only if
                           you really care).  ["Tale of a plucky San
                           Franciscan's adventure in Dreamland.  An
                           extremely well-drafted book.  Highly
                           recommended."  - Jan)
[MacAvoy, R. A.]        I, DAMIANO:  THE WIZARD OF PARTESTRADA
                           An interactive adventure adapted and
                           written by P. A. Golden; available for
                           IBM PC/PCjr or Apple II series computers.
McCaffrey, Anne         NERILKA'S STORY
                           A Pern adventure.  Tiny hardcover
                           copiously illustrated by Edwin Herder.
                           ["A nice little story set at the same
                           time as MORETA.  Well-drawn characters
                           and compact plot, but not enough to make
                           a book." - Jennifer)
Nesbit, E.              THE BOOK OF DRAGONS
                           Reprint 1900 hardcover short story
                           collection; 1972 Blegrad illustrations
                           and new afterword by Anne McCaffrey.
                           Recommended.
O'Shea, Pat             THE HOUNDS OF THE MORRIGAN
Sturgeon, Theodore      GODBODY
                           Introduction by Robert A. Heinlein.  ("A
                           heart-warming evocation of love,
                           sexuality and human weakness from a
                           quintessentially 1960s perspective.  A
                           fitting memorial to Sturgeon, and
                           simultaneously an unmistakable period
                           piece." - Debbie)
Vance, Jack             CHASCH:  TSCH'AI I
                           Reprint 1968 paperback.  This edition
                           illustrated by Philip Hagopian.
                        THE GREEN PEARL
                           Reprint 1985 limited edition hardcover.
                           Sequel to LYONESSE.
Watson, Ian             THE BOOK OF IAN WATSON
                           "A kind of autobiography woven of
                           fiction and non-fiction." - author's
                           preface.
Wilson, Robert Anton    THE ILLUMINATI PAPERS
                           1982 British reprint of 1980 American
                           edition; now distributed by the original
                           American publisher.  An illustrated
                           companion to the ILLUMINATUS trilogy.

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 86 15:32:07 EDT
From: RPK@COM.EXEC
Subject: Star Wars

About a year ago I saw the film "The Hidden Fortress", directed by
Akira Kurosawa, starring Toshiro Mifune.  At the time, the newspaper
review were suggesting that George Lucas used that film as at least
part of the inspiration for his film "Star Wars".

The plot: Some time in the feudal period of Japan, two lowly
peasants are enlisted by a warrior and a girl traveling incognito.
The mission is to help the girl return to her homeland with valuable
information.  They must travel in disguise, at times directly under
the noses of enemy soldiers.  In the end they succeed, and the
peasants are called to the court of the princess, where she and the
general, both now in full regalia, formally give their thanks.

They're not as similar as "The Seven Samurai" and "The Magnificent
Seven", but the connection is undeniable.

Richard

------------------------------

From: unirot!shark@caip.rutgers.edu (chris rhodes)
Subject: Re: Quotes
Date: 6 May 86 23:39:31 GMT

Actually, the quote was *only* from COTEOF.  The similar quote in
"Arena" was "He knows, Doctor.  He has reasoned it out.

Anybody know where the planet scenes in (oh sh*t, ummm...  the
episode that took place on the planet Deneva about the cheese
omelets which got stuck on Spock's back...) were filmed?  Methinks
UCLA.

Chris Rhodes / Shooting Shark / Tiburon Systems  415/581-1553
uucp: {ihnp4,seismo,sun,etc.}!lll-crg!{csuh!shark|caip!unirot!shark}

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 86 10:18:35 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: The Face of Evil

Carlo Samson writes that he is confused by Tom Baker's Doctor's head
being the one shown in the episode "The Face of Evil"...

   The producers of the show were very fond of having the Doctor
visit a planet and mention that he was there before.  As a matter of
fact, the Pertwee episodes, "The Curse of Peladon", and "The Monster
of Peladon" marked the first time the Doctor revisited a planet in
the same incarnation with the possible exceptions of Skaro and
Earth.

   Notable examples are "the Twin Dilemma" where Colin Baker's
Doctor said he had visited the planet in his Fourth regeneration and
in "Time Lash" where Colin Baker (Him again?) visited the world as
Jon Pertwee with Jo Grant.

>But there's something strange here: the Face is that of the Fourth
>Doctor, yet he couldn't have visited the planet any time after his
>third regeneration since we've seen where he's been with Sarah
>Jane. And if he had visited the planet in one of his previous
>lives, then the Face would have been that of whatever incarnation
>(i.e. First, Second) had done the repair work on the computer. The
>point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's
>since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation.

 Just because we didn't see the Doctor and Sarah actually visit the
planet doesn't mean that they were never there.  While their early
adventures from "Robot" to "The Android Invasion" pretty much follow
directly in sequence, there are numerous gaps in their later
adventures together where they might have popped off without us
knowing.

For example, at the end of "Brain of Morbius" they went off to
Rassilon knows where, yet at the beginning of the next episode "The
Seeds of Doom", the Doctor and Sarah were obviously on Earth for a
while before being called in to help.

There are similar gaps between "The Seeds of Doom" where the Doctor
and Sarah go off on a holiday to Cassiopea at the end and "Masque of
Mandragora" where they mis-materialise while going home.

It is quite curious that Samson's letter was printed when it was,
because I am currently writing the Doctor Who story where the Doctor
and Sarah land on the Sevateem planet and mess up the Computer.  Its
called "The Survey Team" (Tentative title).  I personally chose to
set it between "Seeds of Doom" and "Masque of Mandragora".

May you never lose the key to your TARDIS,
Steve
(Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 86 0830-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #109
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:

                Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Booklist

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 5 May 86 17:30:20 GMT

Sorry, but there are more stories missing from TPTT then just TEFL
and NOTB.  The short story "Let There Be Light" which appears in the
collection "The Man Who Sold The Moon" is also part ot the Future
History stories, as is the novella "Universe", also if you look at
the time-line in TPTT you will notice that there are at least 2
stories that were planned but never written (I don't remember the
titles).  The title "The Past Through Tomarrow" was given the the
collection at the time it was published (early 70's I think) when it
was realized that the first several stories (at least "Lifeline",
"The Roads Must Roll" and "Blowups Will Happen") were already
non-existent history (happening in the 50's and 60's).  So the
stories are presented (Read the intro) as an alternate time-line
that branched off of ours some time in the 50's.  Note, how the
alternate time-line stuff shows up this early before NOtb.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: acm@ucla-cs.ARPA (Assoc for Computing Machinery )
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 5 May 86 07:51:14 GMT

Heinlein did NOT call his stories "FUTURE HISTORY".  This is what
John Campbell did in the late '40's according to the introduction to
the Heinlein anthology _The_Past_Throught_Tomorrow_.  If you are
interested in what stories were part of this "FUTURE HISTORY", you
might try looking in the anthology collection _A_Menace_From_Earth_
(either Signet or Berkeley) where, if I remember correctly, Heinlein
includes a sort of time line- event synopsis from the _Roads_Must_
Roll_ up to _Methuselas'_Children_.  If you are even more curious,
please send e-mail to me directly and, after I get home this morning
and return in a few hours, I'll let anyone know about whatever about
Heinlein's stories (and novels if interest is there).

David E. Lee
UCLA ACM Chairman

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Other Change Of Hobbit booklist (Part II)
Date: 6 May 86 20:25:56 GMT

    This is the March booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit.

The Other Change of Hobbit
2433 Channing Way
Berkeley, CA  94704
(415) 848-0413

Booklist #7
April 1986

If you saw this list in an electronic medium, please mention that
when you place your order.  Thanks.

Mass Market Paperbacks

Anthony, Piers          ANTHONOLOGY
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover short story
                           collection (obviously).
Asimov, Janet and       THE NORBY CHRONICLES
    Isaac                  Reprints NORBY THE MIXED-UP ROBOT
                           (1983) and NORBY'S OTHER SECRET
                           (1984).  Young adult robot novels.
Asimov, Isaac, M. H.    GREAT SCIENCE FICTION STORIES BY THE WORLD'S
    Greenberg and .     GREAT SCIENTISTS
    C. G. Waugh (eds.)     Well, some great stories, and one or
                           two great scientists . . .
Bailey, Robin W.        BLOODSONGS
                           Final volume of the Frost trilogy,
                           following FROST and SKULL GATE.
Beamer, Charles         WHEN THE GODS RETURNED
Bear, Greg              BLOOD MUSIC
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover; 1985 Nebula
                        Award nominee.
Benary-Isbert, Margot   THE WICKED ENCHANTMENT
                           Reprint 1955 hardcover; would have been
                           a MagicQuest.  Stunning Maitz cover.
                           Recommended by Jan and Jennifer.
Blaylock, James P.      HOMUNCULUS
Bowes, Richard          WARCHILD
Byers, Edward A.        THE BABYLON GATE
Caidin, Martin          THE MESSIAH STONE
[Campbell, John W.]     THE JOHN W. CAMPBELL LETTERS VOLUME I
    Perry A.               An extremely interesting collection of
    Chapdelaine, Sr.,      the Great Editor's letters, unfortunately
    Tony Chapdelaine &     poorly proofread and indexed.
    George Hay (eds.)
"Clarke, Robert"        LESS THAN HUMAN
    (Charles Platt)        Amusing-looking spoof; the author's
                           real name is on the copyright page.
Clayton, Jo             DRINKER OF SOULS
                           Not related to Diadem or Duel of
                           Sorcery.
Coppel, Alfred (as      THE NAVIGATOR OF RHADA
    Robert Cham Gilman)    Reprint 1969 hardcover.  The third book
                           in the Rhada series.
da Cruz, Daniel         TEXAS ON THE ROCKS
                           Sequel to THE AYES OF TEXAS.
Dalkey, Kara            THE CURSE OF SAGAMORE
                           ("Amusing fantasy in the Scribblies'
                           style." - Tom)
Dickinson, Peter        HEALER
                           Reprint 1983 hardcover.  First (British)
                           paperback.  ("One of his more challenging
                           young adult novels; recommended." - Tom)
Feist, Raymond E.       MAGICIAN:  MASTER
                           Reprint of the second half of the 1982
                           hardcover MAGICIAN.  The first half was
                           published as MAGICIAN: APPRENTICE.  The
                           second (or second half of the first) book
                           of the Riftwar Saga.
Gentle, Mary            A HAWK IN SILVER
                           Reprint 1977 hardcover.
Gibson, William         NEUROMANCER
                           Fourth printing; new (uncredited, ugly)
                           cover.  No longer an Ace Science Fiction
                           Special (but retains Terry Carr's
                           introduction to the Specials).  Winner
                           1985 Nebula Award; 1984 Hugo Award.
                           Recommended.
Godwin, Parke           THE LAST RAINBOW
                           Reprint 1985 trade paperback.
                           Arthurian novel.
Grant, Charles L.       AFTER MIDNIGHT
    (ed.)                  Horror anthology; some reprints, some
                           originals.
Haldeman, Joe (ed.)     BODY-ARMOR:  2000
    with M. H. Greenberg   Need we say more?
    and C. G. Waugh
Harness, Charles L.     REDWORLD
Herbert, Frank          HERETICS OF DUNE
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover.
[Howard, Robert E.]     CONAN THE RENEGADE
    Leon Carpenter         Yet another pastiche; according to
                           de Camp this falls before "Shadows
                           in the Moonlight" in CONAN THE
                           FREEBOOTER.
Johnson, Crockett       BARNABY #4:  MR. O'MALLEY GOES FOR THE GOLD
                           Collects 5/8/44 to 1/12/45; introduced
                           by an adulatory letter from Dorothy
                           Parker (1943).  Recommended, as always.
Kilworth, Garry         THEATER OF TIMESMITHS
                           Reprint 1984 British hardcover; first
                           U.S. edition.
Leiber, Fritz           THE WANDERER
                           Reprint 1964 paperback.  Hugo award
                           winner, 1965.  New Walotsky cover.
Lively, Penelope        THE WILD HUNT OF THE GHOST HOUNDS
                           Reprint 1971 British hardcover; first
                           U.S. edition.  Would have been a
                           MagicQuest.
MacLeod, Charlotte      THE CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover.
                           ("Fun stuff - an agriculture professor
                           finds himself in Ancient Wales, where
                           he has remarkably silly adventures."
                           - Jennifer)
McCaffrey, Anne         DRAGONSINGER
                           Reprint 1977 hardcover; 15th printing.
                           New Rowena "cover art".
McKinley, Robin         THE HERO AND THE CROWN
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover.  Newbery Award
                           winner (Best Children's Fiction).  ("This
                           prequel to THE BLUE SWORD is an even
                           better book, well-deserving of its
                           Newbery, and of your time and attention."
                           - Debbie)
Moorcock, Michael       THE QUEEN OF THE SWORDS
                           Reprint 1971 paperback.  The 2nd Book
                           of Corum; new Robert Gould cover.
Morris, Janet           BEYOND SANCTUARY
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover.  The first
                           Thieves' World (TM) novel.
Nesbit, E.              THE ENCHANTED CASTLE
                           Reprint 1907 hardcover.
                        NEW TREASURE SEEKERS
                           Reprint 1904 hardcover.
                           (Both recommended, especially THE
                           ENCHANTED CASTLE, which might just
                           be Nesbit's best book" - Debbie).
Pohl, Frederik          BLACK STAR RISING
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover.
Pohl, Frederik and      GLADIATOR-AT-LAW
    C. M. Kornbluth        Reprint 1953 hardcover; this edition
                           recently tampered with by the surviving
                           author.
Powers, Tim             FORSAKE THE SKY
                           Heavily revised version of THE SKIES
                           DISCROWNED (1976).  ("The plot's exactly
                           the same, but now it's a good adventure
                           story with reasonable characters instead
                           of a fairly dull one." - Tom)
Pyle, Howard            THE STORY OF KING ARTHUR AND HIS KNIGHTS
                           Reprint 1903 hardcover; first mass
                           paperback.
Roberson, Jennifer      LEGACY OF THE SWORD
                           Chronicles of the Cheysuli:  Book Three.
                        SHAPE-CHANGERS
                           Chronicles of the Cheysuli:  Book One.
                           Reprint 1984 paperback, with new Vulek
                           Haller cover to match the new volume.
Roberts, John Maddox    KING OF THE WOOD
                           Reprint 1983 hardcover.
Russell, Eric Frank     NEXT OF KIN
                           Reprint 1959 British hardcover; this is
                           the original, longer version of the 1958
                           (U.S.) THE SPACE WILLIES.  ("I prefer the
                           short version - this feels a bit padded."
                           - Tom.  "Me, too.  Interesting only for
                           the minor sexual innuendo that Campbell
                           obviously cut."  - Dave)
Schmidt, Dennis         KENSHO
                           Reprint 1979 paperback; second in the
                           Wayfarer series.
Shetterly, Will         WITCH BLOOD
Silverberg, Robert &    THE TIME TRAVELERS
    M. H. Greenberg        Reprint 1985 hardcover.  Four classic
    (eds.)                 stories.
Snodgrass, Melinda M.   CIRCUIT
                           ("A well-done pro-space story with a
                           lawyer/judge as the protagonist.  Both
                           law and plotting are quite different from
                           the usual." - Jennifer)
Sucharitkul, Somtow     THE FALLEN COUNTRY
                           ("Young adult novel with some
                           unfortunately preachy overtones, but also
                           some beautiful writing." - Debbie)
Tilley, Patrick         THE FIRST FAMILY
                           The Amtrak Wars Book II.  (Book I was
                           CLOUD WARRIOR, which had no series title
                           on the American edition).  Reprint 1985
                           British paperback.
Tiptree, James, Jr.     BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR
                           Reprint 1985 hardcover; Dave's favorite
                           book of 1985.  ("This
                           brilliantly-structured science fiction
                           novel combines drawing-room mystery,
                           alien warfare, time paradox and more,
                           into one of the most memorable and
                           satisfying books of recent
                           years." - Debbie)
Vance, Jack             THE DYING EARTH
                           Reprint 1950 paperback.  Unquestionably
                           one of the finest science fantasy books.
                           If you haven't read it, do so
                           immediately.
Volsky, Paula           THE SORCERER'S LADY
                           ("An entertaining novel with some fine
                           twists on fantasy cliches.  First in a
                           series, and I'll read the others."
                           - Debbie)
Weis, Margaret and      THE TIME OF THE TWINS
    Tracy Hickman          DragonLance (TM) Legends, Volume I.
                           ("Much better than the first series;
                           interesting characters and clever
                           plot twists." - Jennifer)
Whiteford, Wynne        SAPPHIRE ROAD
                           Reprint 1982 Australian edition.
Zelazny, Roger          THE GUNS OF AVALON
                           Reprint 1982 hardcover; 12th paperback
                           printing.  New Tim White cover to match
                           TRUMPS OF DOOM and NINE PRINCES IN
                           AMBER.

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 86 0808-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #110
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Brin & Brust & Heinlein &
                     Laumer & Pohl & Powers & Story Request &
                     Old Story Request Response (2 msgs),
             Films - Aurora Encounter,
             Television - Doctor Who,
             Miscellaneous - Reading Habits & Quote Source Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: THE NORBY CHRONICLES by Janet & Isaac Asimov
Date: 4 May 86 11:42:07 GMT

Not being a juvenile, I cannot say for certain whether it would be
appreciated by one or not.  (My kids prefer to be called teenagers
-- never was quite certain what age group juveniles were supposed to
be anyway.)  Be that as it may, am currently reading this book, the
first story was enjoyable.  Not classic or relevant, but better than
watching television.  For what that's worth.  I wish the the Leepers
(duo) would review books with more of na objective viewpoint.  Too
much subjectivity destroys a book review (in my opinion) -- however,
I merely read them (books that is) and so am not a professional
reviewer.  Generaly I classify books in three catagories:
    1) So good that I cannot put it down, even missing my favorite
       tv show (which consists of about three shows this year)
    2) Good enough to read instead of watching tv, or read during
       commercials
    3) So bad that I watch commercials rather than reading it

Bill

------------------------------

From: isis!tkoppel@caip.rutgers.edu ( News Guest)
Subject: Re: David Brin's book _THE POSTMAN_
Date: 5 May 86 03:41:10 GMT

I too enjoyed the book (a lot--much more than I liked his earlier
works) and wanted to purchase a copy.  It seems to be in limbo; the
hardbound copies have been returned to the publisher and the
paperback won't be out for several months.  My local B Dalton
special ordered it for me, and it came fairly quickly from the
piblisher.

Hope it wins the  award, it is a 'good read'.

Ted Koppel
Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries
hao!isis!tkoppel
303-750-9142

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: JHEREG by Steven Brust
Date: 7 May 86 15:26:00 GMT

bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane) writes:
>I really enjoyed Jhereg an Yendi by Brust, but for the life of me I
>can't remember the plots!  All SORTS of interesting things
>happened, though.

   And therein lies the problem I have with Brust and SF-Lovers.
From what I've seen of his writings, it's all throw-away.  The books
are fun to read, but forgettable.  There is, of course, nothing
wrong with that-- I'm proud to declare that reading SF is
entertainment for me, and I don't want or need Joyce (or even
readable stuff like Kafka or Montaigne) during *my* leisure time.
However, those people who malign other "good read" authors seem
strangely silent when the topic of Brust comes up.  Is it merely
because he might be listening?  God forbid Mr. Brust find out
somebody actually reads his books for entertainment, and doesn't
find deep meaning in 'em!

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 86 06:42 CDT
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Future History/The Past Through Tomorrow

Heinlein didn't come up with the name Future History.  If you read
the intro to The Past Through Tomorrow, it explains the printing of
the timeline and the origin of the name Future History (Another
author of note persuaded him to print the time line and gave it the
name.)

Steve

------------------------------

From: sdcc13!ma71sea@caip.rutgers.edu (David Lee Smith{|stu)
Subject: Re: Laumer Novels
Date: 6 May 86 04:54:19 GMT

Also be on the look-out for Rogue Bolo.  It's a two story book like
PanGalatic Puchritude etc.  Rogue Bolo is lousy, being one of
Laumer's compilations of snipets of viewpoints from different
characters and the story doesn't fit into the time-line at all It's
not even a good action story, since the Bolo solves everything with
some near-magical powers it discovers it has.  The second story is
OK, but not worth buying the book for.

David L. Smith
UC Sandy Eggo
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc13!ma71sea
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc15!ee64sgy
ucbvax!sdcsvax!man!wolf!dlsmith

------------------------------

From: tekigm2!wrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: BLACK STAR RISING by Frederik Pohl
Date: 4 May 86 11:36:15 GMT

Personally, I found this a book that I could not put down -- I read
the whole thing in one sitting.  Maybe it is a tax write-off, but so
what?  Of course, I have always liked Pohl.  (And Pohl/Williamson,
Pohl/Kornbluth, etc.) so I may be prejudiced.  I also like Asimov,
Heinlein, Poul Anderson and some Andre Norton.  Would appreciate the
sequel also, agree that it has all of the classic hooks for the next
book.

Bill

------------------------------

From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman)
Subject: Powers, Blaylock, & Wm Ashbless
Date: 3 May 86 00:43:29 GMT

Warning: The following contains a SPOILER of _The Anubis Gates_

I haven't been on the net that long, so I hope I'm not dredging up
something that's already been done to death, but this has been
bugging me for a quite a while. Some postings I've seen tell me
there are other people on the net who've obviously read _The Anubis
Gates_ &| _The Drawing of the Dark_ (by Tim Powers). Have any of you
read anything by James P. Blaylock too? Did you notice anything odd
about the characters and references in these books?

Specifically...

The quote from William Ashbless that leads off _The Drawing of the
Dark_ couldn't be more appropriate. (If but we Christians have our
beer, nothing's to fear.)  It's so appropriate that I'm tempted to
think that Powers just made it up. Another possibility is that he
wrote the book around the quote, but this seems even less likely.

Ashbless takes a giant leap in importance in _The Anubis Gates_. He
is the main character of the book. At least that's his name in
victorian England. He started out with the name Bredan Doyle.  (Hmm,
The main character of ~DotD~ is Brian Duffy. Do all of Power's
protagonists have the initials B.D. If they do what does *that*
mean?)

In James P. Blaylock's _The Digging Leviathan_ again there is a
character named William Ashbless. The novels takes place in modern
times, but there are hints that this is the original Ashbless.

I haven't read _Homonculus_ (Blaylock's latest) yet, but I'll bet
there's at least a reference to Ashbless.

I'm certain that Powers and Blaylock know each other. _Dinner at
Deviants Palace_ is dedicated to the-Thursday-evening-group or
something like that, and Blaylock is a member. There are other
sneaky references like Brian Duffy (in ~DotD) teaching some boys to
play a piece of grass, and using Blaylock's _Wilde Manne_ as an
example (page 49 para 3) that seem to confirm this association.

What I want to know is...
   Has anyone read anything else with William Ashbless as a
character?

   Does anyone know these guys? Are either of them on the net?

   But mostly -  What's the deal with this Ashbless guy ????

Happy reading,
Ralph Schurman
...!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf

------------------------------

From: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane)
Subject: Another "Do you know this story?" request
Date: 5 May 86 21:22:37 GMT

While sending a message about funny F & SF, I mentioned the dueling
scene in "The Princess Bride" (at the Cliffs of Insanity, where the
Man In Black says, "See, I'm not left-handed either!") which had
been excerpted for Spider Robinson's anthology "The Best Of All
Possible Worlds", I remembered a story I had read recently, probably
in Analog, probably 1975 or 1976. Anyway, what I remembered was that
the story had been tongue-in-cheek, and that the duel scene was in
there, copied almost exactly except starring the main character.
Anybody remember this at all?  I know it's not much to go on.
Thanks!

Rene P S (nee Steiner) Bane
bane@parcvax

------------------------------

From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@caip.rutgers.edu (Andy Finkel)
Subject: Re: Title&&Author: Sentient becomes contact in computer
Subject: simulation
Date: 7 May 86 14:25:06 GMT

waynet@tolerant.UUCP writes:
>I recall reading a short story which involved a computer simulation
>of a society in which the only practicable contact between reality
>and computer simulation was through a sentient entity within the
>the simulation. Any pointers would be welcome.

That sounds like either "When Harlie Was One", by David Gerrold, or
"The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams (think about
it...)

andy finkel
Commodore(Amiga)
{ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy
or pyramid!amiga!andy

------------------------------

From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@caip.rutgers.edu (Andy Finkel)
Subject: Re: Time is Money
Date: 7 May 86 14:28:02 GMT

meissner@dg_rtp.UUCP (Michael Meissner) writes:
>colonel@ellie.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) writes:
>>An old idea.  I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized
>>in (F&SF?) in the 70's.  It was about a planet where morality was
>>enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in
>>newborns' brains.  One person held the controls.  Anybody remember
>>it?  I think it was nominated for some prize or other.
>
>Sounds like "Die said the Ticktock Man" by Harlan Ellison.

Actually, it sounds more like "Logan's Run", by (I think) William F
Nolan

(BTW, it was "Repent, Harlequin, said the Ticktock Man", by Harlan
Ellison.

I wonder if the name Harlan comes from...nah, too obvious.)

andy finkel
Commodore(Amiga)
{ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy
or pyramid!amiga!andy

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 86 06:38 CDT
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Aurora Encounter

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but the movie seems to be loosely based on a
hoax.  A Reporter/Editor in a small texas town printed a sotry about
an alien visiting and dieing in the town and being buried in the
local cemetary.  Asbout 10 or so years later, one of the supermarket
scandal rags resurrected the story from the "morgue" and printed it
as fact.  It caused the small Texas town no small pain in the a**.
You see when it was printed, the whole town knew it was whole cloth
but the people reading the reprint didn't and bothered the dickens
out of the town trying to get souvenirs.  So much for the "based on
a true story" theory.

Steve

------------------------------

From: jaffe@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Saul)
Subject: News from England
Date: 7 May 86 15:17:25 GMT

I received my issue of the Whovian Times from the DWFCA last night
and thought I'd share with you some of the information:

[Note:  all of this is reprinted without permission]

(deleted)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 86 10:35 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Reading Habits/Question (long?)

    I am a voracious reader.  But, over the last 6-9 months I've
noticed a habit: a few books, I seem to read as fast as I possibly
can--almost skim them--like a child wolfing down a "goodie", and
then when I'm all done I reread the book (or the whole series, if
the book is part of a series) at a more normal pace; other books
(which I thoroughly enjoy) I read at a normal to slow (savoringly)
pace and reread at a later date.
    This has probably been going on for a long time, and it has only
JUST NOW registered that THAT is what I've been doing!  Examples:
_The King's Justice_ (Kathryn Kurtz) and _Courts of Chaos_ (Roger
Zelazny) were examples of the former, while _Way Station_ was one of
the latter.
    Is this something "normal" people do, or are my family and
friends correct in saying that I'm weird?  I have a hunch it has to
do with story lines (i.e.  "gotta read this as fast as I can so I
can see how the story advances; when that's done you can go back and
really read what is going on!") versus listening to the sounds of
the language and visualizing the pictures.  When I'm on one of these
"gotta read" books, I ignore my cat, son, husband, the
news...virtually everything and everyone (wweeellll, I do get up and
go to work since I like to spend money--on books, if nothing else!)
until I am done with the first reading of the book.  Which is
definitely a personality change!  HHmmmmmmmm!

Roz

------------------------------

From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (James "Cutter John" Griffith)
Subject: Re: my earlier request
Date: 6 May 86 22:25:15 GMT

In a previous note, I made a request for a full quotation from a
"Heinlein" book that I had seen once.  I have since then been
informed that the quote was actually from Harlan Ellison.  Whoops.
At any rate, I still haven't received email from anyone knowing the
entire quote, so I'm still hoping.  The punchline of the quote was
"And what the hell, they caught him".  Help?!?!?

Jim Griffith
griffith@pavepaws

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 86 0840-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:

      Books - Anthony & Asimov & Heinlein & Hodgell (2 msgs) &
              Moorcock & Varley & Parallel Worlds Stories &
              Time Stories,
      Films - The Samurai Trilogy & Rocky Horror,
      Television - Doctor Who,
      Miscellaneous - Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster &
              SFL T-shirt & New SF SIG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 8 May 86 08:23:42-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: incarnations: don't bother!

As usual, Piers Anthony has another series where the first book is
pretty good, (** in -***** to *****), but the successive books drop
in quality by 3* each. Really, the whole thing seems to be a bizarre
soap opera set to Anthony's weird morality which he seems intent on
braining the reader with each chance he gets.

Anthony has been writing his stupid moralizing fables since the
first XANTH book, and he doesn't show any signs of kicking the
habit. Aesop did it a lot better.

However, he DOES have a nice author's afterword in each novel, but
this hardly makes up for the fiction itself.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Wed 7 May 86 15:47:43-EDT
From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF
Cc: s.r-freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

Please allow me to comment on a SF story which definitely WAS NOT IN
THE LEAST BIT FUNNY.  I recently purchased F&SF (Oct, 1980) at my
local bookstore (The Printers Devil in Middletown, CT offers a great
selection), mainly because I noticed a short story by Asimov was
contained therein.  The story is entitled "Death of a Foy".

Little did I realize that all of my sensibilities were about to be
attacked by a seemingly innocent 3-page story.  This tale ends in a
pun which is so excruciatingly painful that I had to run around in
circles for ten minutes yelling "oogie oogie oogie !!!"  just to
keep myself from throwing up on my girlfriend's shoes.  (The pun was
one of those which paraphrases a popular saying).

I was so hurt by Mr. Asimov's unkind thrust, that I feel forced to
vent my frustration here.  Asimov wrote (in the introduction to "The
Up-To-Date Sorcerer" in Nightfall_and_Other_Stories):

   You see, there is no margin for error in humor ...  The
   not-quite-humorous remark, the not-quite-witty rejoinder, the
   not-quite-farcical episode are, respectively, dreary, stupid, and
   ridiculous.

Please, Mr. Asimov (as well as all other authors), do not insult you
fans by writing such utterly unsatisfying stories (or, at least, if
you do, make them funny).

Eric J. Simon
Wesleyan University
wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

From: druhi!bryan@caip.rutgers.edu (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection
Date: 2 May 86 14:03:51 GMT

tainter@ihlpg.UUCP writes:
> This doesn't cover everything.
> Friday
> ...are also part of the future history.

I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of the
other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is
inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial
people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the kind
of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.).  Otherwise, I agree
with you; the Future History consists of:

   The Past Through Tomorrow
   Time Enough for Love
   I Will Fear No Evil (although just barely)

and one that people are still arguing about:

   The Number of the Beast (the last couple of chapters)

And even possibly (I haven't read it yet):

   The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

(One of my favorite stories in the entire Future History series is
"If This Goes On ..." -- the one about where a bunch of people
overthrow the U.S. Government which, at that time, is a religious
dictatorship).

John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver, Colorado
...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan        (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: P. G. Hodgell
Date: 6 May 86 07:40:41 GMT

Has anyone read the new book by P. G. Hodgell called (I think) *Dark
is the Moon*?  I saw it in a bookstore, in hardcover, so I didn't
get it.  It is a sequel to *Godstalk* (which I enjoyed, although I
gather a fair number of net.people didn't).  Opinions? Facts?
Reviews?

Soren Petersen

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison)
Subject: Re: P. G. Hodgell
Date: 7 May 86 19:09:47 GMT

At last!  I've been hoping Hodgell would bring out a sequel to
*Godstalk*.  I am also one of the few that enjoyed it.  What were
the reasons against it?  Sorry, I have no review of *Dark is the
Moon*, I haven't seen it anywhere, hard or soft cover.  Thanks,
Soren, you have made my afternoon.

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok

------------------------------

Date: Wed 7 May 86 19:39:52-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dundee-tech.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Moorcock and Hawkwind

Yes the band Hawkwind do still exist (but I'm still hoping they will
give up some day..). They even currently have a single in the UK HM
charts - there isn't an SF music chart!). Their latest album
entitled Chronicle of the Black Sword (I think) is based on
Moorcocks works and during the recent tour to promote the album
Moorcock appeared on stage with the band in London. Incidentally the
British copy at least of the first 'Dancers' book is dedicated to
the band by names of the members of Hawkwind at that time.

As to their drugs connection, well they play that down now but when
I saw them at Dundee University a couple of years ago, I was a
little bit suspicious about a rather strange oral musical instrument
that appeared to be smoking when played and come to think of it the
place did smell a little odd.......

Alan Greig

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 May 1986 10:08 SA
From: Tero Siili  <FYS-TS%FINHUT.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Varley's female protagonist's

Andy Burstein, first I want to simply agree with your description on
J. Varley's style. I would like to add, that the way I see it, he
sort of strips off the simplified heroism of males, without
'donating' it exclusively to females. Varley deals with PERSONS, and
persons meaning intelligent beings, not just humans. Titanides,
Blimps, Angels, humans - they are all the same sort, all with their
species-typical as well as personal excellencies and deficiencies.

Another thing which I have found refreshing is Varley's apparent
realism.  (at least I'll call it realism). He does not begin to
moralize, but treats moralism and ethics as a relative and
situation/species/person dependent code. To give an example, his
society descriptions are far from being utopian, they are HUMAN.

Just some thoughts on Varley...

Tero Siili
FYS-TS@FINHUT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 1986 16:51:17-EDT
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Parallel Worlds travel stories

If you are interested in parallel universe travel stories, to my
thinking, the best on this subject is H. Beam Piper with his
Paratime stories, collected mostly in _Paratime_ although there is
one gem, "Crossroads of Destiny", in the _Worlds_of_H._Beam_Piper_
anthology, and, of course, _Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_.

While I am on the subject, about a year ago, Roland Green and John
Carr came out with a Lord Kalvan sequel: _Great_King's_War_.  Flame
on> The authors have proved, beyond any doubt, that they have
studied ancient and medieval battles extensively.  Still, having
knights, in full plate armor, several hundred years after the
invention of gunpowder, and its use in muskets and artillery, is
stretching probability even beyond what one could expect, even in a
parallel world.  <Flame off.

In all, I would rate it about 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.  If you are a
Piper fan who has been waiting for the story to continue, buy it,
despite its flaws.  If not, leave it be.

Harold Wyzansky  (wyzansky@NADC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 7 May 86 15:33:49-EDT
From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: time stories

> About 5-10 years ago, an excellent short story appeared in Playboy
> (yes, some people actually read the articles ;-) that really
> illustrated the value of time.  The article was called "Time is
> Money" and the basic idea was that time, rather than money, was
> used as the medium of exchange.  Everyone was born with a certain
> amount of time, and when you reached a certain age you had to
> start earning your own time.  It could be traded, saved, invested,
> borrowed, loaned, used to buy goods, etc.  But, when you finally
> used up all of your time, you died.

Another related story:

"`Repent, Harlequin !' said the Ticktockman" by Harlan Ellison,
which was the 1966 Hugo winning short story.  It centers on the
TickTockMan who is in charge of maintaining everyone's timecards as
well as their cario-cards.  Every time someone is late (to
anything), time is subtracted from their card.  When their time runs
out, they receive a termination notice (with a few days warning so
that they might straighten out their affairs) and are killed using
their cardio-cards.  Our hero (the Harlequin) fights against this
society in a myriad of humerous and creative ways (including
dropping $150,000 worth of jelly beans onto an unsuspecting assembly
line, therefore disrupting schedules by 7 minutes).

This related story makes for amusing reading.

Eric J. Simon
Wesleyan University
wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Wizards (and myths): {really Star Wars}
Date: 5 May 86 17:35:58 GMT

anich@puff.UUCP (Steve Anich) writes:
> Not really, other than a basic good vs evil plot. Star Wars does
>have many similarities to a movie by Akiro Kurasawa -- The Samuri
>Triology, I think.

Actually, I think that they were by Inagake although the movies are
strongly reminiscent of Kurosawa. I once saw them back to back in
six hours. It was worth it but I don't know if I would try it again.

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 86 16:11:04 EDT (Thursday)
Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show query
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM>

I need to know the words to "Over at the Frankenstein Place" [I
think that's the title] - the third song of the film, sung as Brad &
Janet are trudging thru the rain.  It would be of most use if I knew
which lines were sung by what character.  Can any of you RHPS fans
out there help me?  Please reply directly to me, rather than to the
net.

Thanks,
Chris

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_bjab@caip.rutgers.edu (Jessica A Browner)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who
Date: 5 May 86 01:43:44 GMT

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>Concerning the story "Face of Evil" from the Tom Baker era:
>...The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth
>Doctor's since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that
>incarnation.

    In the novelisation of the story by Terrance Dicks, it explains
that the Doctor "slipped away" during "all of that business with the
giant robot" (Baker's first episode, *Robot*), which would have
taken no time at all in the TARDIS, and so no one would have noticed
that he was gone.  The reason he didn't remember reprogramming
Xoanon was because he was so disoriented from his regeneration.

Jessica

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: mixable Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster
Date: 6 May 86 12:56:43 GMT

After reading the recipes posted for making a Pan-Galactic
Gargleblaster, it seems that most are trying for the "look" and not
for the ground-zero effect.  I have a recipe that I "stumbled" (:-})
on.  It take a while to make it (6 months), but the effect is
interesting.

Take a fifth of good quality vodka, 90 proof or higher.  Place 6
dried Szechuan hot peppers in the vodka and set it aside for at
least 6 months.  The peppers will turn pale and sink, and the vodka
will turn slightly yellowish.

Once the vodka has "developed", remove the peppers and pour half the
vodka into a clean bottle.  Mix this with an equal amount of good
quality peppermint schnaps.  An interesting variation is to use
"gold schnaps" (has flakes of 23 carat gold foil floating in it).
Close the bottled mixture and place it in the freezer for at least 4
hours.

Serve in frozen liquor glases (i.e. keep them in the freezer too).

Drink, carefully.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 86 14:22:08 edt
From: James Turner <lmi-angel!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa>
Subject: T-shirt

                       Nick Danger, Third Eye
                                 in
                           T-Shirt Terror

I had just finished my biggest case...Bud Light, as I recall, and I
was settling down for the night, when I heard a knock at the door.
``It's open,'' I murmered, griting my teeth as steel-booted
tap-dancers did a Fosse stage number inside my head.

The door creaked open, and in walked six feet of blond beauty. Her
eyes cut through the smoke-filled haze like lighthouse beacons, and
her full, red lips had "kiss me" written all over them. ``Are you
Nick Danger?'' she breathed at me.

``That's what the sign on the door says, sweetheart,'' I responded
at my urbane best. Actually, it said "Al's Chinese Laundry", but I
wasn't concerned with details like that right now. ``What's your
problem?''

Suddenly, she was crying like the newborns down at the hospital.
``It's all so complicated, Mr. Danger.''

``Call me Nick,'' I interjected. I reached under the pile of
National Geographics I kept for the pictures of native women, and
pulled out a stolen napkin I had on hand for leaky broads.

She wiped her eyes, and continued her sob story. ``Mr. Danger, it's
so horrible. It all started when I saw someone wearing a really
nice-looking T-shirt. It was so nice, I just had to have one. But
before I could ask them where they had gotten it, they were gone!''

``Could you describe this shirt?''

``Oh yes! It showed two people sitting in a spaceship control-room,
reading SF-LOVERS. In the background, there was a spaceship heading
straight for them, about to blow them up, but they didn't notice. It
was white on blue, I think. Haynes Beefy-T.''

This chick had sharp eyes! ``Sister, I think I can help you. I
pulled a pad of paper over, found a pencil hidding under my .38
ammo, and scribbled "Pipe Dream Associates; 329 Ward Street; Newton,
MA; 02159".  ``Here'', I said, handing the note to her, ``Just send
these guys a check for $6.50, along with your address, and whether
you want small, medium, large, or extra-large. They'll do the
rest.''

``Oh, Mr. Danger. How can I thank you?'' I leaned back in my chair
and relaxed. Maybe this wasn't gonna be such a bad night after all.

Disclaimers: 1) Any implied sexism is in Nick Danger's mind, and in
no way represents that of the author. 2) Nick Danger is a trademark
or copyright or somesuch of Firesign Theatre, used without
permission (so sue me...). 3) Pipe Dream Associates will see no
financial gain from this project (however, any 6 foot blonds in the
neighborhood are free to drop in...). 4) This offer closes June 1,
expected mailing date is June 30, in Nebraska, call collect,
operators are waiting, now how much would you pay, best seller in
Europe, AND IT EVEN MAKES JULIENES!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 May 86 14:22:08 edt
From: James Turner <lmi-angel!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa>
Subject: New SF SIG

News Flash:

   The General Electric consumer information service, GEnie, will
soon have a Science Fiction and Fantasy SIG, moderated and hosted by
your's truly. This SIG (or Roundtable, as they are called on GEnie),
should be up later this month. I hope to include interviews with SF
and Fantasy notables, as well as real time conferencing in the
service.

Disclaimers: The above does not represent an attempt to sell
services or products. It is provided for informational purposes
only. Your millege in California may vary. No salesman will call.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 86 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #112
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Cherryh & Ellison & Hambly &
                   Heinlein (2 msgs) & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                   Zelazny & Funny SF,
           Television - The New Twilight Zone,
           Miscellaneous - Origin of "filksong"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Another Foundation novel
Date: 9 May 86 04:42:24 GMT

Isaac Asimov's 6th Foundation book, "Foundation and Earth", will be
published this fall.  This information comes from a friend at
Doubleday, who adds that it will the 100th book of his that they
will have published.  This is all I know about it.  But now I'll
have to get around to reading my copy of "Robots and Empire"!

Mark Brader

------------------------------

From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Cherryh portrait
Date: 9 May 86 05:26:47 GMT

cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa writes:
>   David Cherry (the 'h' on CJ's name is an attachment) is
>beginning to become a success as a commercial SF artist. He got
>breaks from Fantasia Press (in addition to the above, they did a
>special edition of her two ]elf[ books, ? and THE TREE OF SWORDS
>AND JEWELS, with illos by him) and is now getting

First it is Phantasia Press, second they have put out (by Cherryh):

   Forty Thousand in Gehenna
   Cuckoo's Egg
   Chanur's Venture
   The Kif Strike Back
   Visible Light

The last two have David Cherry covers. Neither The Tree of Swords
and Jewels, nor Dreamstone have been done by Phantasia.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: Time is Money
Date: 8 May 86 10:07:07 GMT

meissner@dg_rtp.UUCP (Michael Meissner) writes:
>colonel@ellie.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) writes:
>>An old idea.  I remember having seen it in an SF novel serialized
>>in (F&SF?) in the 70's.  It was about a planet where morality was
>>enforced by surgically implanting remote-control death devices in
>>newborns' brains.  One person held the controls.  Anybody remember
>>it?  I think it was nominated for some prize or other.
>Sounds like "Die said the Ticktock Man" by Harlan Ellison.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you mean "'Repent, Harlequin!' said the
TikTok Man" which was indeed by Ellison.  It was more of a
medium-to-long (:-) short story, as I recall; at least, it fit into
one side of a Waldenbooks casette when The Author did a reading of
it (packaged with a reading of "A Boy and His Dog", I think).  The
tapes are fun, although I preferred reading the stories.

Good story.  "Jelly beans!"  :*)

Michael Justice
BITNet:  boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay.arpa@wiscvm
ARPANet: boreas%bucsb%bu-cs%csnet-relay
UUCP:    ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
CSNET:   boreas%bucsb%bu-cs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 86 18:17:58 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: ISHMAEL

About the girl who departed on the arm of a curly-haired man...space
tramp....  Anybody see possibilities of Zaphod and Trillian (before
he got the extra head) ?

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection
Date: 7 May 86 17:39:36 GMT

bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes:
>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of
>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is
>inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial
>people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the
>kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.).

    It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier short
stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the
title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think).
You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen.

>Otherwise, I agree with you; the Future History consists of:
>   The Past Through Tomorrow
>   Time Enough for Love
>   I Will Fear No Evil (although just barely)
>   The Number of the Beast (the last couple of chapters)
>
>And even possibly (I haven't read it yet):
>
>       The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

  ORPHANS OF THE SKY (or "Universe" + "Commonsense") is not
collected in THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW, although it is charted.

pH

------------------------------

From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's Future History
Date: 8 May 86 15:47:46 GMT

>Could someone on the net please list what books are in this series,
>and in what order they are in? ...

According to the Future History Chart, which appears in most of the
collections in which FH stories appear, the stories are, in order:

Life-Line; "Let There Be Light"; (Word Edgewise); The Roads Must
Roll; Blowups Happen; The Man Who Sold the Moon; Delilah & the Space
Rigger; Space Jockey; Requiem; The Long Watch; Gentlemen, Be Seated;
The Black Pits of Luna; "It's Great to be Back"; "--We Also Walk
Dogs"; Ordeal in Space; The Green Hills of Earth; (Fire Down Below);
Logic of Empire; (The Sound of His Wings); (Eclipse); (The Stone
Pillow); "If This Goes On"; Coventry; Misfit; Universe [prologue];
Methuselah's Children; Universe; Commonsense.

The stories named above in parentheses are stories RAH planned but
never wrote.  If you buy _The Past Through Tommorrow_ and _Orphans
of the Sky_, you get all the stories he did write, except "Let There
Be Light."  But wait, there's more: you also get The Menace From
Earth and Searchlight, stories which do not appear on The Future
History Chart.  "Let There Be Light" you can find in _The Man Who
Sold the Moon_ (a collection which also includes the short story
whose name is used as its title).

If you get _TPTT_ and _OOTS_ and _TMWSTM_ then *don't* buy
_Methuselah's Children_ or _The Green Hills of Earth_ as neither
contains anything not found in the other three.  *Do* buy _The
Menace From Earth_ as it contains other non-Future History stories
including "Year of the Jackpot" and "By His Bootstraps," which I
consider two of RAH's best short stories.

Since I've gone this far, I'll tell you about some collections of
his other short stories:

_Assignment in Eternity_ contains "Gulf," which would be of interest
to anyone who {has|will} read _Friday_; "Elsewhen", which is RAH's
first experiment with more-than-one time-dimension, as developed
more fully in _The Number of the Beast_; "Lost Legacy"; and "Jerry
Was a Man."

_The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag_ a.k.a. _6_x_H_ (six by
Heinlein) contains the title story; "The Man Who Travelled in
Elephants"; "All You Zombies", a must-read for anyone who {has|will}
read _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_; "They"; "Our Fair City"; and
"And He Built a Crooked House."  California patriots please note
before flaming anyone that RAH is himself "The Hermit of Hollywood"
mentioned in AHBACH.

_Expanded Universe: The New Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein_ is a
revised edition of _The Worlds of RAH_ which includes a whole mess
of stories and RAH's commentary on the stories.  "Solution
Unsatisfactory," which Isaac Asimov claims as the first story to
predict a nuclear stalemate, is one of these (read this if you're
interested in the Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident).  But the
reason to buy this book is "Where To?" a.k.a.  "Pandora's Box," a
story RAH wrote in 1950, listing several predictions for the future.
In 1965, in _TWORAH_, he added a whole mess of comments and some
more predictions.  In 1980, he added even more comments.

_Waldo_ and _Magic, Inc._ contains "Waldo" and "Magic, Inc."

For my next trick, I will post the definitive list of RAH's novels
and detailing which characters and time-lines are shared between
them.  Prior to _TNotB_ this wouldn't have been very difficult, but
as things stand now... don't hold your breath.

S. Luke Jones
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 7 May 86 19:27:38 GMT

> In addition, his very earliest work is hard to come by: The Golden
> Barge (written at the age of 17 and already including many of the
> themes of the Eternal Champion) and the Kingdom of Spiders trilogy
> (a set of books that haven't been mentioned yet on the net, and
> which are definitely linked to the Eternal Champion cycle).

I don't know about THE GOLDEN BARGE, but the "Kingdom of the
Spiders" books (BARBARIANS OF MARS, BLADES OF MARS, and WARRIORS OF
MARS) were originally issued under the name "Edward P. Bradbury" by
Lancer Books, and may be found filed under that name in used book
stores and such.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

From: uvm-gen!haviland@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Haviland)
Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands
Date: 7 May 86 15:05:23 GMT

In the same vein, a couple of Blue Oyster Cult songs,
_Veteran_of_the_Psychic_Wars_ and _Black_Blade_ were cowritten by
Moorcock.  _Black_Blade_ seems to be about Elric, with lots of
references to the sword controlling him and the like.  I don't know
if _Veteran_ is about any specific story, but it appears the the
soundtrack to _Heavy_Metal_.  Both songs can also be found on (I
think) BOC's album _Cultosaurus_Erectus_.  Good tunes, too.

Thomas P. Haviland
University of Vermont
(802) 656-2540
USENET: decvax!dartvax!uvm-gen!uvm-cs!haviland
CSNET:  haviland%uvm@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 May 86 14:37:22-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: AMBER news

I phoned Arbor House, and the friendly receptionist there looked
through their status reports on books in production and informed me
that:

BLOOD OF AMBER is now in production for a September release date.

Apparently, GHOSTWHEEL is NOT the name of the next Amber book. I
dunno, I like GHOSTWHEEL better than BLOOD as a title, the latter
sounds more like a soap-opera title, or a Harlequin Romance....

Laurence

------------------------------

From: lpi!abc@caip.rutgers.edu (Anton Chernoff)
Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF
Date: 8 May 86 04:10:13 GMT

I agree that "Astra & Flondrix" is one of the best sf-erotica books
around.  For blacker sf-porn, try Philip Jose Farmer's "Image of the
Beast."

Back to the topic...

Here's a list of some of the better humorous SF that I've found over
the years.  Some of it may be out of print, but available at used
book stores or at dealers' tables at SF conventions.

Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series:
   The Stainless Steel Rat
   The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge
   The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World
   The Stainless Steel Rat for President
   A Stainless Steel Rat is Born  [Prequel, and not as funny]
These are the story of Slippery Jim di Griz, the best thief in the
galaxy.  Lots of tongue in cheek and sarcastic commentary on
governments and their ways.  Harrison has done some other humorous
works, notably the space operas
   Bill, the Galactic Hero
   Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers
It helps to have read some "real" space opera (the old stuff, which
these books and their ilk try to parody) to appreciate the parody,
but anyone who knows the term BEM will enjoy them.

Speaking of space opera, the works of E.E. "Doc" Smith are
prerequisites to appreciation of the genre, in addition to being
important contributions to the foundations of SF.  I respect Doc's
works, but mention it here because to 1986 eyes, it appears to be
humorous as space opera.  (It's not - it's the real thing.  But it's
fun to read!)

Since we're on classics, several of Robert A. Heinlein's works,
while being well plotted SF, are also funny:
   Podkayne of Mars
   The Rolling Stones
   Glory Road
and others.  All of RAH's older stuff is highly recommended.  I
reserve comment on his more recent works for another topic.

Ron Goulart's work is uniformly amusing, but the quality is
variable.  Among the better and funnier are
   Suicide, Inc.
   Shaggy Planet
   Ghost Breaker
   Clockwork's Pirates
   What's Become of Screwloose?
Goulart takes nothing seriously, and some plot tends to be
sacrificed in the interest of comedy.

I second the recommendation of David Gerrold's and Larry Niven's
   The Flying Sorcerers
Read it carefully.  It contains a lot of in-jokes for the benefit of
us hard core SF fans.  Pick out the people you know among the book's
characters.

Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger series has a lot of humor, along with
the humor that comes of long-developed characters.
   Spellsinger
   Hour of the Gate
   The Day of the Dissonance
   The Moment of the Magician
   The Paths of the Perambulator
Unfortunately, by the 5th book the whole thing starts wearing thin.
[Incidentally, many people underrate Foster because he does so many
movie novelizations.  His own original work tends to be quite good.]

For those of a literary bent, try Marvin Kaye's
   The Incredible Umbrella
   The Amorous Umbrella
wherein our hero get stuck, for instance, in
Gilbert-and-Sullivan-land and sings asides to the reader which the
other characters are obliged to ignore.

Robert Sheckley has a lot of humorous SF in print.  His newer works
tend to be sort of new wave-ish (not really, but it's hard to
describe).  The older stuff, especially his short stories, are a
real riot.  Try
   People Trap
   Store of Infinity
   Can You Feel Anything?

How can a pun-lover not adore Spider Robinson's Callahan stories?
The best long-winded puns, coupled with a truly human storytelling
ability, make these stories my favorite funny (and occasionally
weepy (with joy)) SF:
   Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
   Time Travelers Strictly Cash
   Antinomy

John Sladek write funny.  Try his
   Mechasm
   Roderick

Finally, though not exactly SF, Thorne Smith's works frequently show
up on the SF racks in bookstores.  They're light fantasy.  You'll
know them:
   Topper
   Topper Takes a Trip
   The Stray Lamb
   ... and many more
Either you love them or you don't.  Try one.

Piers Anthony needs no further mention in this note.  Suffice it to
say that his short stories can be funny, too.  Like "Up Schist
Creek..."

Keep this note alive.  There's got to be more good funny SF.

Anton   (...!{harvard,linus}!axiom!lpi!abc)

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Save The Twilight Zone!
Date: 9 May 86 05:50:27 GMT

mcb@styx.UUCP (that's me!) writes:
> I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's
> program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry)
> that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone. TZ is
> off now, and will appear in reruns, I've been told, during the
> summer season on Thursdays at 10 PM EDT/PDT, opposite reruns of
> Hill Street Blues.

CBS released its fall schedule yesterday, and The Twilight Zone has
been renewed. Looks like WE DID IT!! :-) :-) It will be broadcast at
10 PM ET/PT on Saturday nights.  I don't know how many episodes are
in production, so it's still wise for TZ enthusiasts to write the
network, preferably during the fall season. The current economic
climate of network TV demands that shows can't get 2 or 3 seasons to
"catch on", as was true as recently as a few years ago.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 May 86 23:46:48 EDT
From: CC004039%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: possible origin of word "filksong"

When I first heard the word, I though it was "FILCHsong", not
"FILKsong".  The obvious origin being that though the lyrics of such
songs are original, the tunes are almost always FILCHED from popular
pieces of music!

Mike McClennen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 86 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #113
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: Tolkien
Date: 25 Apr 86 12:35:59 GMT

From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
>Since we're on the subject of Tolkien did anyone notice the LOTR
>scene where Gandalf and company are about to enter through the
>mountains of Moria.  They come to a door set into the mountain with
>elfish script adorning it.  The script translated says in effect
>"Say the elfish word for friend, mellon, to enter".  Gandalf was
>hard pressed to discover this fact and there were wolves very near
>the company that were tracking them.  Legolas, the elf, was part of
>the company at this point but he never gave a word of help.  I
>never figured out why.  Any ideas?  This seems to be a hole in the
>plot.

First off, the script was written in High-elvish because it was done
for the remnant of the High elves from Beleriand. Legolas came from
Mirkwood and was not a high elf, it would be reasonable to assume he
would be less versed in High-elvish than, say, Aragorn, who had
closer associations with Lothlorien and Rivendell.

However, the problem was more subtle than being able to read the
sign. The script actually said "Say friend and enter", but Gandalf
mis-understood its meaning and translated it "Speak friend and
enter". Thus he was sent off on the wrong track, trying to guess
what the password was, rather than reading it from the sign.

This sort of confusion in translation between very different
languages is common because there is rarely a one-to-one mapping of
words. Tolkein, being a linguist, would be well aware of this sort
of thing and exploited well.

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:       mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:           ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas)
Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question
Date: 5 May 86 11:52:41 GMT

olsen@ll-xn.UUCP writes:
>The recent discussion of Wizards in Lord of the Rings reminds me of
>a passage in LOTR that I've wondered about for some time.  In the
>orc-tower of Cirith Ungol, Snaga tells Shagrat
>
>       "...There's a great fighter about, one of those
>       bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_."
>
>I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga
>is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard.
>Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?

   _Tark_, explained Tolkien in one of the appendices, is derived
from the word Tarkil meaning "Man of Gondor".

Tony Thomas
adt.ukc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 May 86 18:39 EST
From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Tolkien "magic"

Just a short digression (and forgive me if a million other sf-lovers
post something similar...)

Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most other
fantasy magic.  For instance (as someone mentioned) the
shape-changing is hardly literal; it was more of an atmosphere
created (for example, when Gandalf wanted to impress on Bilbo the
importance of giving up the Ring in the one tense scene at the
beginning of _Fellowship_).  The only specific magic I can think of
are Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers.  The
other magic is much more ephemeral, consisting mostly of animatistic
forces.  In fact, some of the "magic" in Tolkien can be likened to
things we believe in, such as "charisma", "selling power", etc.

nj

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 86 06:46 CDT
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Tolkien (The Las for a while, I hope)

Now I enjoy LotR as much as the next person, maybe more, but let's
give it a rest for a minute.  I think it has been discussed (and
cussed) enough for a while.  I mean, a whole issue devoted to
nothing but Tolkien?  I am sure there is enough material out there
to warrant disucssion on many other books/stories/movies/etc.

Steve

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien (Gandalf and the entrance to Moria)
Date: 7 May 86 18:33:01 GMT

CS.MCGRATH@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
> As for Legalos, he was a young wood elf, and they have their own
>elvish dialect. He may only have had a passing acquaintance with
>the High-Elvish dialect inscribed on the door -- if I remember my
>dates correctly, that high Elvish script would have been written
>MILLENIA before Gandalf and company made it there.

   Actually the language on the door was Grey Elvish, or Sindarin,
not High Elvish! The lettering *was* borrowed from High Elvish
though, albeit with considerable modification.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: Dwarves
Date: 7 May 86 23:21:40 GMT

Regarding dwarf-maidens:

In the appendices to LOTR, the Creator and Final Authority states
that dwarf maids were rarely seen by non-Khazad; that they rarely
travelled outside their homes; that there were in any case never
many of them (about one third of the total population); that some of
_them_ never married; that only one dwarf-maid is mentioned by name
in the Red Book; and that, when they did travel abroad (no pun
intended!), they dressed as the males of the species and were not
noticed by non-Khazad.

I hope this clears up matters a bit.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_atrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Richard Holtz)
Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question
Date: 4 May 86 14:18:11 GMT

olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) writes:
>I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga
>is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard.
>Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?

A nice guess, and it would make sense, but unfortunately it isn't
true.  According to J. E. A. Tyler's _A_New_Tolkien_Companion_ (St.
Martins Press, New York, 1979, p. 552):

Tark  See following entry.

Tarkil The original (as opposed to translated) name given in the
Common Speech (the Westron) to a member of the race of Gondor.  It
appears to be a worn-down form of the Quenya word _Tarcil_.
   Note: the epithet _tark_, used by some tribes of Orcs, to mean a
Man of Gondor, was doubtless a further debased version of _tarkil_.

Used without permission.

Therefore, _tarks_ refers to something that orcs hate as much as
they do Istari, but have a great deal more contact with (generally
at the end of a _tark's_ sword).

Tom Holtz

------------------------------

From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Date: 6 May 86 17:57:03 GMT

Cargo.PD@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>hope to get some definitive answers to the nature and origin of Tom
>Bombadil.  He plays a part in LoTR, where he rescues the hobbits
>from Old Man Willow.  He is even mentioned in one of the councils
>at Rivendel as a potential holder of the One Ring.  (As I recall,
>he took it from Frodo, put it on, and DID'NT become invisible, a
>very good trick.)  He is mentioned in other things from JRRT, but I
>don' recall him ever being EXPLAINED.  Can someone enlighten me?

Well, I can give my two cents worth anyway....

As far as I understood it, Tom has been there since the world began.
I would assume that he is a creation of Iluvatar that was not fully
explained to the Valar (remember Tolkien said that the entire plan
and details of the Earth were not all made clear to them...some
things were purposely left unmentioned ).  The reason the Ring had
no effect is that he was there before it came into existence and
because he is not really a part of the world that it affects.  He
has his section of land that he calls his and when you enter it, the
rules change.  Anyway, that seems like a reasonable
explanation....anything wrong with what I've said anybody????

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
UUCP  : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan
CSNET : jrsheridan%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
ARPA  : jrsheridan%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Re: So much for writing without a reference....
Date: Wed, 07 May 86 13:12:54 PDT

Mea culpa!  I stand corrected on Maiar, Thangorodrim (I always read
it as ThangoroBADrim, after all, it was a bad place) and that
Yavanna didn't create Ents, but sponsored them.  I used Morgoth
rather than Melkor because the elvish name is more familiar --to me,
at least--, and I couldn't remember whether it was Melkor or Melkur.
Tol Eressea is not, strictly speaking, part of Middle Earth after
the fall of Numenor, but it is part of 'Earth', the created world
taken as a whole, and elves do not "leave the circles of the world"
as men do.  I don't have a source (will forward when I find it) but
Froda is, I think, correct as it stands as a Merovingian name,
although I admit I may have been thinking of the original hobbit
version of the name.  I apologize for the errors; my books were at
home (I know, I know, I should have waited and double- checked), and
I haven't gotten all the way through "Unfinished Tales" yet.  There
is a lot about Turim in there, and after "The Silmarillion" I didn't
think that I could face another hundred pages on the Norse tragic
hero theme.

As for the "completeness" of Tolkien's world, I think it rests on
his conception of the act of creation -- or creativity, in man.
Read the "Silmarillion" again and note the contrasts between Aule's
creation of the Dwarves, Feanor's creation of the Silmarils, and
Yavanna's creation of the two trees.  The created thing assumes
something of the nature of the creator, so much so that there is no
possibility of recreating the object if it is destroyed.  But a
creation cannot remain a possession: Aule gives up the dwarves,
Yavanna mourns but does not avenge the destruction of the trees;
Feanor starts a destructive war to regain possession of the
Silmarils but only succeeds in destroying much of Middle Earth.
Somewhere in the writing, as an author, Tolkien managed to distance
himself from his created world so that it was not merely an
extension of his alter egos, but stood on its own, an integral
thing.  He does this even in the style of the book: the narrative
voice is almost pure; except in the Hobbit, Tolkien rarely intrudes
on the story as an omniscient narrator; he describes only what his
characters would know and see or think; he is only the recorder, not
the creator of these incidents.  He is not manipulating the reader
for polemical ends, as do people who write stories with a point; he
is simply telling a story.  And that is very hard to do.

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 7 May 86 16:58:26 GMT

jrsheridan@watnot.UUCP (James R. Sheridan) writes:
>Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
>>were Ainur (Tolkien's mythology equivalent of angels or saints.
>>Sauron was one, as well, and, I believe, the Balrogs) so had the
>>power to
>
>The Balrogs were Ainur corrupted by Melkor and/or(?) Sauron if my
>memory serves me correctly.  I think this was done after Melkor
>made his citadel in the north.  I forget the name of
>that...Ang(something)....

   Angband, the Hell of Iron.  Also, by that time nobody used
"Melkor" anymore, just "Morgoth".
   By the way, there seems to be some confusion among some people in
this group--Ainur are the "angels", whom Iluvatar first made; the
Valar ("archangels", if you wish) are the leaders of those who
descended into Arda (Middle-earth), of whom the rest are Maiar.

pH

------------------------------

From: uvacs!dam@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Montuori)
Date: 5 May 86 13:23:20 GMT
Subject: Re: (Tolkien) Inscription on door

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words aloud,
>either while reading them initially or while explaining the
>situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the
>word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's
>opening?

Several members of the party (Sam, Merry, Pippin, maybe others?)
didn't speak Sindarin. Seems to me that it wouldn't have occurred to
Gandalf, Legolas or Aragorn to read the inscription aloud in
Sindarin, since the party had been using Westron (Common) from the
time it left Rivendell.

Dave Montuori (Dr. ZRFQ)
UVa CS dept, C'ville, Va.
(Central Virginia State Home
 for Professional Students)
CSNET: dam@virginia
UUCP: ...!decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!dam
      ...!houxm!burl!icase!^
      ...!seismo!allegra!^
      ...!ihnp4!cbosgd!^

------------------------------

From: cvl!bhaskar@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Gandalf.
Date: 8 May 86 16:11:56 GMT

It would be impossible for me to personally thank all of you who
replied to my question regarding Gandalf. So, let me use the net to
send one BIG collective THANK YOU. I carelessly used "The Hobbits"
when, of course, it was "The Hobbit" I was referring to. My
apologies are overdue. I certainly plan to read "The Silmarillion"
which many of you referred me to.

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 86 21:36:00 EDT
From: "SHIRE::LISA" <lisa@shire.decnet>
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil

>All this discussion of Gandalf has brought a remarkable response.
>Now I hope to get some definitive answers to the nature and origin
>of Tom Bombadil.  He plays a part in LoTR, where he rescues the
>hobbits from Old Man Willow.  He is even mentioned in one of the
>councils at Rivendel as a potential holder of the One Ring.  (As I
>recall, he took it from Frodo, put it on, and DIDN'T become
>invisible, a very good trick.)  He is mentioned in other things
>from JRRT, but I don' recall him ever being EXPLAINED.  Can someone
>enlighten me?

 In regard to the question on Tom Bombadil, I recall seeing in a
letter from Tolkien that Bombadil was a character he created long
before he wrote the Hobbit [See the Tolkien Reader, "The Adventures
of Tom Bombadil"] in poetry.  He incorporated him into the
Middle-earth mythos as an intentional enigma to scholars like us.
  "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there
always are.  Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

_letters of JRRT_, H. Carpenter, letter #144

Lisa Anne Mende
ARPA: mende@aim.rutgers.edu
UUCP: caip!aim!mende

------------------------------

From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic"
Date: 8 May 86 19:10:57 GMT

From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
> ...For instance (as someone mentioned) the shape-changing is
> hardly literal...

Au contraire!
I know of at least one instance, in _The Hobbit_ where it was most
certainly literal: Beorn.  It's never exactly clear whether he can
choose his form or is a werebear (oh, gods, that sounds terrible,
aick!), but he certainly could shape-change.

And a great deal of magic was flashing around when Gandalf faced off
on a hilltop with the riders in _Fellowship_.  Frodo was wounded by
a magic sword/dagger.  The river protecting Rivendell (sorry, the
name refuses to index)(have to get a new brain-database, that's all)
certainly did a magic number on the Nazgul.  And half a dozen other
instances flare to mind.

You'd best read again, I think.  Admittedly, Magic is not
omnipresent in LoTR, but it's most certainly present.

Barb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 86 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #114
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Hambly & Harrison & Kurtz &
                   McKiernan & Moorcock & Sturgeon &
                   Recommendations & Codex Seraphinianus &
                   Story Request Answered,
           Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide Quote Request,
           Television - Star Trek & The New Twilight Zone,
           Miscellaneous - Vocabulary and Language

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: leadsv!sas@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart)
Subject: Re: Blue Adept Question?
Date: 8 May 86 16:21:45 GMT

I need some help from all you net.sf-lovers addicts. The other day I
was trying to recall the various forms of magic that each of the
Adepts used on Phaze (from the Blue Adept series by Piers Anthony).
I got my books stored away currently and don't want to go through a
lot of hassle trying to figure it out, so I asking for this info
from all of you.

I remember some info, which I present below, please respond with any
clarifications or corrections.

   Black  - Magic Powers were in creating thing from lines.
   Yellow - Created magic Potions.
   Brown  - Created Golems.
   Orange - Magic Powers included the control of Plants.
   White  - ?
   Green  - ?
   Red    - Created magic Amulets

  and last and most

   Blue   - Magic summoned through verse. The more musical, the
       more powerful.

Another question, did Stiles (Blue) need to play music before he
voices his musical incantation? Also, what other types of magic were
there?

Thank for any help,
Scott A. Stewart
LMSC - Sunnyvale
ihnp4!rtgvax!leadsv!sas
teklds!cae780!leadsv!sas

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!flynn@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC429)
Subject: Re: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly
Date: 8 May 86 14:47:54 GMT

From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>Greetings and felicitations! If anyone here has read the
>afore-mentioned book, could you tell me if I missed anything? It is
>primarily a Star Trek book, but about half of it is set in the
>"Here Come the Brides" universe. Spock also makes a reference to
>being "shanghaied by a shipload of Hokas," who I just found out
>exist also. Have I missed any other references?

...and the other half seems to be Dr Who! I counted at least 3
references, including one to a race of stagnant time-travellers from
the "galaxy of Kasteroborous" [sic], another to a shabbily-dressed
hobo and his female "assistant" and the third to an exotic-looking
space merchant complete with glamorous female accompaniment.
   Anybody see any more..? Perhaps a metropolitan Police Box in 19th
century San Francisco, or baby-shaped "jelly beans"...

Anthony Flynn.
P.S. What's a 'Hoka'..?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 86 21:23:02 EDT
From: CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Harrison

I've just completed the first four Stainless Steel Rat books, by
Harry Harrison.  Are there any more?  What are they?  Can someone
post titles of other works of his?  Thanks!

Jeremy Bornstein
CC004100@BROWNVM

------------------------------

From: warwick!req@caip.rutgers.edu (Russell Quin)
Subject: Review: Kurtz/The King's Justice
Date: 9 May 86 18:04:18 GMT

[there are spoilers for those who've not read the earlier books in
the series - the first in the series is called `Deryni Rising']

If you liked the first seven books in Katherine Kurtz' `Deryni'
series, you have probably been waiting for the eighth,
_The_King's_Justice_, as eagerly as I had.  You probably won't be
disappointed, either.  I wasn't.

The book is about Kelson as he grows into manhood and develops the
sense of dispassionate justice that a King needs.  The war against
Meara and the anti-deryni fanatics of Archbishop Loris provides a
rich background, with the high level of detail and accuracy that one
has come to expect from Kurtz.

Plotwise, the book is no stronger than those earlier in the series.
But somehow that never seems to matter.  This is Historical Fantasy
at its best, with strong, well-developed characters and a clear
writing-style.  I finished it in an evening, with the help of a box
of Kleenex -- the latest three books seem to have each been more
harrowing than the last.  Certainly there is never the security that
important characters won't be killed off...

Publisher (in the UK):Arrow Books, London (printed by Century),
1986, ISBN: 0-09-945879-5; 337pp (paperback) incl. two-page map,
index of characters (welcomed!), index of places (also welcomed!)
and Partial lineage of the Haldane Kings.  Publisher (in the
US):Ballantine Books.

I got my (UK) copy from Forbidden Planet in London; Andromeda
(Birmingham) also have it, and it will probably be in most English
bookshops soon.  I have no idea about availability elsewhere.

Russell
ARPA            req%warwick.uucp%daisy.warwick.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa
EARN/BITNET     req%warwick.uucp%UK.AC.WARWICK.DAISY@AC.UK
JANET           req%warwick.uucp@uk.ac.warwick.daisy
UUCP            seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!req  (req@warwick.UUCP)
I cannot reply to ARPA mail -- please include a BITNET or UUCP path.

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: McKiernan: On Prequels, Sequels, Forerunners
Date: 6 May 86 17:55:10 GMT

While recovering from a shattered left femur, for my own amusement,
and to stay sane, I wrote a tale of the quest of the Dwarves to
recover Moria.  Doubleday loved it.  The estate of JRRT did not.
Doubleday then asked me to make the tale my own, to provide a new
history, geography, background, etc., pulling it out of Tolkien's
world and into a world of my own.  Yet I had to keep the same story:
Dwarves quest to recover a lost homeland.

After another year, I had revised the tale.  Now it was set in a
world I called Mithgar.  The revised tale is titled "The Silver
Call".

While awaiting Doubleday's reaction to "Silver", I got to thinking
about that background, that history, and decided that it, too, would
make an exciting story, and so I began a new tale.  I was about half
way through the first draft when Doubleday called and said that they
liked the revision and that they had slotted "Silver" in their
publication schedule.  I replied that I was at work on the "prequel"
to "Silver" and would they hold off publication until they had a
chance to look at the manuscript, and if they liked it, then let's
publish the stories in the correct chronological order.  Doubleday
agreed, and I soon finished the prequel...called, of course, "The
Iron Tower".

I sent "Iron" to Doubleday; they liked the tale and agreed that it
should indeed be published first.

For business reasons, Doubleday divided "Iron" into a trilogy (I
would have much rather seen it as a single book, for that's the way
I wrote it).

Doubleday published "Iron" in hardback, and a year or so later
Signet published it in paperback.

And the "sequel", "The Silver Call", is rolling off Doubleday's
presses at this very moment, but Doubleday has split the tale into
two books this time.  So, "Silver" will come out as a "duology".

And therein lies the tale of two tales:

   The Iron Tower:
        Book 1: The Dark Tide
        Book 2: Shadows of Doom
        Book 3: The Darkest Day

   The Silver Call:
        Book 1: Trek to Kraggen-cor
        Book 2: The Brega Path

  ("Silver" available in Doubleday hardback in May and June, 1986,
respectively)
  (just had to get in a plug)

Incidentally, I want to thank all of you who have commented both
publically on the net, and privately by e-mail, and have passed on
your opinions to me concerning "Iron"; I look forward to hearing
from you about "Silver".

If anyone else wants to hop in here, feel free.

Dennis L. McKiernan

------------------------------

From: magic!thain@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion
Date: 9 May 86 20:38:34 GMT

pete@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Farabaugh) writes:
>      I have read the whole cycle exept for these three because I
> haven't been able to find the first one (The Eternal Champion).
> If anyone can tell me where I can get a copy they can have what's
> behind door number 2.
>
>      One of our fine publishing companies (I can't remember which
> one) made a brilliant move by rereleasing the second volume but
> not the first.

     A lot of Moorcock's work is being reprinted, but the Eternal
Champion is one that seems to always miss the list, (Snarl!
Grumble!). I've been haunting old bookstores, I suggest you do same.
Anyone else with a better idea on where these three could be found?

Happy Trails,

Glenn
thain@decwrl.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 May 86 21:23:02 EDT
From: CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Sturgeon

Is there any relationship between Sturgeon's _The_Cosmic_Rape_ and
his collection, mentioned recently here, _To_Marry_Medusa_?  I've
read the first, and its title could have (perhaps should have) been
something like the second.

Jeremy Bornstein
CC004100@BROWNVM

------------------------------

From: ritcv!jaw7509@caip.rutgers.edu (John White)
Subject: Re: Would you recommend a book for me to read?
Date: 9 May 86 19:52:00 GMT

larrabee@decwrl.UUCP (Tracy Larrabee) writes:
>Fantasy and Sci-fi I hate:
>Anything that's about machines and science only and not their
>affect on people

Well, I must say, you've got rather eclectic taste. I wouldn't throw
many sci-fi writers in with men who write classics. I'd make an
exception for Tolkien and Herbert for writing 'Dune', though.

Judging from the last line of your note (alone) I can recommend this
book.  It is my favorite book of all time and is a general
recommendation to anyone.

   "Lucifer's Hammer" - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

Thank you,
John White

P.S. Niven and Pournelle have a new book: "Footfall". I haven't
gotten too far into it as yet thus I cannot recommend it (although
I'm sure it's gonna be great.)

------------------------------

From: cc@ucla-cs.ARPA (UCLA Computer Club)
Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_
Date: 8 May 86 06:52:53 GMT

I got my copy at Crown Books (Boo!!! Hissss!!!) for $30.00 (Ooooh!
Aaaah!).  I have seen this book priced at $70-80 in the used-book
stores, so when I saw $30.00 (actually $29.?? ;-) I bought it
immediately.

Do not even think of ever seeing it in paper-back!!! It is printed
on textured paper, in a multitude of colors (the PUBLISHING QUALITY
is PHENOMENAL) with too many pages, too large to make a convenient
paper-back...

But buy it if you see it in a used-book store at a reasonable price
(<$40).  If you love it from the first moment you leaf through it -
you will not be sorry!

Oleg Kiselev

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 86 15:17 CET
From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re :sentient being in computer simulation

I think the story you're after is
Simulachron-3 by Daniel F. Galouye (not sure about the spelling)

Michael Maisack

------------------------------

From: dcc1!bingaman@caip.rutgers.edu (George C. Bingaman)
Subject: Seeking quote from HGTTG NPR version
Date: 9 May 86 00:00:59 GMT

Greetings,
    I am seeking a quote from the radio version of
_The_Hitchhikers_Guide_to_the Galaxy_ that has been broadcast over
NPR in the USA.  The quote is set up by a discussion (by the guide?)
about the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned complaint/customer service
department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.
    There is a fairly short discussion of the connection between the
SCC slogan "Share and Enjoy" and the expression "Stick your Head in
a Pig."  Following the discussion, a product of SCC breaks into a
song which begans "Share and enjoy, share and enjoy.  Go through
life with a plastic boy or girl by your side..."  and ends with
"...and we'll tell you `go stick your head in a pig'".  In between
these phrases, the machine, in true SCC fashion, malfunctions.  The
voice speeds up and becomes distorted.
    Did anyone out there in net-land manage to tape this particular
episode and extract the lyrics?  If so, I would dearly love a copy.
In fact, the text from the beginning of the discussion thru the end
of the song would be greatly appreciated, but I don't want to be
greedy.
    Thanks in advance,

 George C. Bingaman
 DeKalb Community College
 2101 Womack Rd.
 Dunwoody (Atlanta) Ga. 30338
 +1 404 393 3300 x239
{hplabs|seismo|ulysses|allegra|cbosgd|ihnp4}!{gatech|akgua}\
 !dcc1!bingaman

------------------------------

From: wales@ucla-cs.ARPA (Rich Wales)
Subject: Re: Operation Annihilate (was Quotes)
Date: 9 May 86 05:37:51 GMT

shark@unirot.UUCP (chris rhodes) writes:
>Anybody know where the planet scenes in [Operation: Annihilate!]
>were filmed?  Methinks UCLA.

Let me grab this one *real* quick . . .
Most of the planetside scenes in this one were filmed at TRW in
Redondo Beach (south of Los Angeles).  The exterior still shot of
Kirk's brother's lab (with the rectangular vertical columns and the
mosaic along the top) is the northwest corner of Schoenberg Hall at
UCLA (the music building); note that the picture in the finished
episode is a mirror image of the building as seen in real life.

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

From: sftig!ecc@caip.rutgers.edu (E.C.Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Save The Twilight Zone!
Date: 9 May 86 04:23:10 GMT

> I have learned from two reliable sources (a CBS affiliate's
> program director and a SF writer with friends in the industry)
> that CBS is still debating the future of The Twilight Zone.

well, it seems that the future of TW has been decided and it is a
soft spoken yes! My local newspaper has reported that TW along with
other shows like the Equalizer and Mike Hammer, have been
tentatively renewed for next season. CBS says that these shows'
survival depend on how well they do next season in a new time slot.
TW and Mike Hammer have been scheduled for Saturday at 9 and 10pm
respectively.  The Equalizer remains the same and Magnum P.I. has
been scheduled opposite Moonlighting.

Ed. Chisholm

------------------------------

Date: Sun 11 May 86 00:37:08-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: orichalks, and chalkos == bronze

The island of Cyprus was the Mediterranean source of copper, and it
is believed that the island's name derives from this trade.

I mention this, not to advance our collective scholarship, but to
illustrate how the reader's ordinary vocabulary touches upon the
strangely familiar words in Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"/"Shadow of
the Torturer". I find that it gives an evocative power, and I find
his prose beautiful.

Wolfe is not first to play these games, of course. Tolkien's
"Mordor" is perhaps an old pronunciation of "murder", probably
Germanic. Vance's forests are populated by erbs, grues, deodands and
leucomorphs, and his swamps contain rat's-lettuce and throttlehemp.
A grue is no doubt gruesome: a white shape sounds scary enough; and
deodand turns out to be an archaic word, referring to a thing used
in a murder, and presented to the Church.  I guess I haven't figured
out erbs yet.

Literature is not always something that can be read aloud: for
example, puns can be made with spelling. I am told that this
divergence of the written and the spoken has been carried much
further in French than in English. But notice, Tolkien is not to be
read, nor is it to be heard.  It is to be spoken, and the words are
to be rolled on the tongue, and tasted, intoned, given rhythm and
dramatics. Try these: Galadriel.  Lothlorien. Almery, in the Land of
the Falling Wall. Mazirian, wearing his live boots, casting the
Spell of Forlorn Encystment.

And for the person who wanted funny SF: try Lafferty, with his
hirsute logic, and his closing lines:

"Oh, no, no!" Valery forbade. "Not again. That way is rump of skunk
and madness."

Don Lindsay
Tartan Laboratories

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 86 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #115
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bayley & Farmer & Harrison &
                        Moorcock (3 msgs) & Powers & 
                        Schenk & Sturgeon & 
                        Story Requests Answered (2 msgs),
                Television - Colossus: The Forbin Project,
                Miscellaneous - New York Convention Report

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 02:45:06 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: One-shot (?) authors (Barrington Bayley)

From:   jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU  (James B. VanBokkelen)
> I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but
> I haven't seen anything more from their authors.
>
> 2) _The Zen Gun_, by Barrington Bayley...

Bayley has written at least a dozen and a half books, I'd say, more
than I'd care to list right now. Most of the US editions have been
published by Ace or DAW. Some of his books have been published in
the UK, but not the US.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 19:51:27 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Farmer's pseudo-bios and Kilgore Trout

From:   unirot!halloran (Bob Halloran)
> It was my understanding that 'Venus' was written by Philip Jose
> Farmer, shortly followed by his pseudo-biographies of various 30's
> pulp heroes such as 'Tarzan Alive'.

Aside from the fact that Tarzan was not a 30's pulp hero (though
some of the books did extend into and beyond the 30's and were
published in the pulps), there are two points I must make:

(1) There was only one other pseudo-biography, DOC SAVAGE: HIS
    APOCALYPTIC LIFE.

(2) VENUS ON THE HALF-SHELL was written *after*, not before,
    the biographies.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 19:56:27 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Harry Harrison

From:   CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jeremy Bornstein)
> I've just completed the first four Stainless Steel Rat books, by
> Harry Harrison.  Are there any more?  What are they?  Can someone
> post titles of other works of his?  Thanks!

It depends on what you consider "the first four books". There are
six books altogether, but the first three later appeared in an
omnibus.  The entire series is:

THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT [1977]
   THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT [1961]
   THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S REVENGE [1970]
   THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD [1972]
THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT WANTS YOU! [1979]
THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT [1982]
A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN [1985]

He has more other novels than I care to list. But among the more
well-known and/or better ones are:

THE BEST OF HARRY HARRISON              1976    collection
BILL, THE GALACTIC HERO                 1965
THE DEATHWORLD TRILOGY                  1974
   DEATHWORLD           [1960]
   DEATHWORLD 2         [1964]
   DEATHWORLD 3         [1968]
MAKE ROOM! MAKE ROOM!                   1966
PLANET OF THE DAMNED                    1962
STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS     1973
THE TECHNICOLOR^(R) TIME^(R) MACHINE    1967
TWO TALES AND EIGHT TOMORROWS           1965    collection
WAR WITH THE ROBOTS                     1962    collection

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 00:34:33 GMT
From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman)
Subject: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels

gandalf@ihuxl.UUCP (Schurman) writes:
>>The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order)
>>1. The Warlord of the Air
>>2. The Land Leviathan
>>3. The Steel Tsar
>>
>samson@h-sc2.UUCP (Samson) writes:
>
>I was once informed that these novels were written, not by the
>Michael Moorcock who wrote all the Eternal Champion books, but by
>his grandfather, or father, or some older male relative who had the
>same name.
>
>Is this true, or do these books actually link to the Eternal
>Champion series?

Moorcock writes, as an introduction to _The Warlord of the Air_ ...
   I never met my grandfather Michael Moorcock and knew very little
   of him until my grandmother's death last year when I was given a
   box of his papers by my father. "These seem to be more in your
   line than mine," he said. "I didn't know we had another scribbler
   in the family." Most of the papers were diaries, the beginnings
   of essays and short stories, some conventional Edwardian poetry -
   and a typewritten manuscript which, without further comment, we
   publish here, perhaps a little later than he would have hoped.

Sounds pretty legitimate, doesn't it? But read on.  In the
introduction to _The Land Leviathan_ Moorcock writes...
   My grandfather, who died relatively young after he had
   volunteered for service in the Great War, became increasingly
   secretive and misanthropic in his last years, so that the
   discovery of a small steel safe amongst his effects was
   unsurprising and aroused no curiosity whatsoever in his heirs
   who, finding that they could not unlock it (no key ever came to
   light), simply stored it away with his papers and forgot about
   it.
   [... Eventually Mr. Moorcock (the present day author) finds the
   safe and gets it open. Inside he finds some notes in a
   handwriting different from his grandfathers. ...]
   ...these notes were Bastable's own. Here written in his hand, was
   an account of his experiences after he had left my grandfather...

Getting a bit far-fetched now, but still possible. However In the
introduction to _The Steel Tsar_ Moorcock says that when he remarked
in a concluding note to _The Land Leviathan_ that he hoped Una
Persson (a time travelng character in the book) would visit him
someday he was being ironic. But he says Una Persson did visit him,
shortly after the publication of ~TLL~. He also says she continued
to visit him and that they had many interesting discussions - he
especially enjoyed the gossip from the end of time. Eventually she
brings him fresh memoirs from Bastable, which he claims he edited
into ~TST~.

From this I conclude that either
A) Mr. Moorcock wants us to play a moderately fun game called "Let's
   pretend these stories really happened", much like the Sherlockians
   do with the Conan Doyle stories.
or
B) Mr. Moorcock is a loony.
But then I think rain is wet, so who am I to say.

Happy reading,
Ralph Schurman
ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 19:52:21 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Moorcock (TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS)

From:   reed!ellen      (Ellen Eades)
> I read a (truly bad) Moorcock book called _Time of the Hawklords_
> about ten years ago; it was loosely based on the rock group
> Hawkwind, and I don't think it connected overtly with anything
> else he's written.  I think it's now out of print.  Small loss.

Actually, Moorcock did *not* write TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, though he
is erroneously co-credited. His "co-author", Michael Butterworth
wrote the book alone, based on an idea by Moorcock. The publishers
(both British and American) obviously felt that Moorcock's name on
the by-line would help sell more books. The sequel was properly
credited to Butterworth alone. There was supposed to be a third
novel, LEDGE OF DARKNESS, but I'm not sure if it was ever published.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 02:48:43 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Moorcock (graphic novel)

From:   andromeda!pete  (Peter Farabaugh)
> Everyone seems to have missed part of the cycle:
>
>   The Sword of Heaven, The Flowers of Hell
>
> It was a marvel graphic novel written by Moorcock as the third
> volume to the Erikose/Urlick/John Daker series.

(1) It was not a "Marvel" graphic novel. This was published long
    before Marvel started publishing graphic novels. It was
    packaged by Byron Preiss for HEAVY METAL and distributed
    by Simon & Schuster.

(2) It was *not* written by Moorcock, but by the artist, Howard
    Chaykin (writer/artist of the comics AMERICAN FLAGG! and
    the recent SHADOW), based on a plot by Moorcock.

Moorcock does, however, consider it the third "novel" in the John
Daker series.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 04:34:38 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Powers, Blaylock, & Wm Ashbless

gandalf@ihuxl.UUCP (Schurman) writes:
>The quote from William Ashbless that leads off _The Drawing of the
>Dark_ couldn't be more appropriate. (If but we Christians have our
>beer, nothing's to fear.)  It's so appropriate that I'm tempted to
>think that
>
>Has anyone read anything else with William Ashbless as a character?

   The Sky Discrowned (Power's first novel) mentions Ashbless.
Presumably Powers or Blaylock invented him.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 02:43:00 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: One-shot (?) authors (Hilbert Schenck)

From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU    (James B. VanBokkelen)
> I have two books (bought a couple of years ago) that I liked, but
> I haven't seen anything more from their authors.
>
> 1) _Wave Rider_ by Hilbert Schenk...

Hilbert Schenk has written a number of stories for the sf magazines,
mostly F&SF, over the last 10 years. Aside from WAVE RIDER, he has
had two more books published, both novels from Pocket/Timescape
Books: (1) AT THE EYE OF THE OCEAN [1981] and (2) A ROSE FOR
ARMAGEDDON [1982].

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 19:56:50 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Theodore Sturgeon

From:   CC004100%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jermemy Bornstein)
> Is there any relationship between Sturgeon's _The_Cosmic_Rape_ and
> his collection, mentioned recently here, _To_Marry_Medusa_?  I've
> read the first, and its title could have (perhaps should have)
> been something like the second.

THE COSMIC RAPE was expanded from the title story of the collection
after its original appearance (GALAXY, Aug 1958).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 19:48:56 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Who wrote this? (''Dawn'')

From:   bentley!kwh     (Karl W. Z. Heuer)
> Btw, while writing the above I tried to find ["Dawn"] so I could
> fill in the author's name.  Unfortunately, it appeared in Analog
> in 1981, and I didn't subscribe until 1982 (I read the older
> issues at the library). Does anyone know who wrote this? (Egad,
> we're almost back to the original query!)

Yes, Dean McLaughlin.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 02:31:35 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: DAYSTAR AND SHADOW

From:   msudoc!arlow    (Steve arlow)
> I just recieved a recommendation for a book entitled
> _Daystar_and_Shadow_ .  As far as I know it is no longer in print.
> Anyone knowing pertinant information about it (such as, Author's
> name, correct title if that's not it, etc.) , it would be greatly
> appreciated.

Title: DAYSTAR AND SHADOW
Author: James B. Johnson
Publisher: DAW Books, UE1605, March 1981

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 22:52 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Colossus on video tape?

A couple of weeks ago, I taped "Colossus: the Forbin Project" from
broadcast TV. It wasnt until I viewed it recently that I discovered
how dreadful the broadcast print was.

Does anyone know where I can buy a video tape of this movie?
Preferably one made from a better print? None of the video stores
around here seem to know anything about it...

Thanks,
Tom Perrine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1986 08:53 EST
From: Christopher Condon
Subject: Starlog - New York Convention

I went to the Starlog convention in New York City yesterday and
found it quite interesting.  This was the *first* SF convention I
have been to so I don't have much to compare it to.  It was,
however, a lot of fun.  It is still going on today (Sunday) but I am
not rich enough to stay in NYC overnight.

There were plenty of tables with people selling Star Trek and Doctor
Who "stuff" (Tardis keys, starship blueprints, fanzines, etc.),
mostly Star Trek.  Nothing that I didn't expect.

Film previews: I stuck around for the previews of Poltergiest II and
Star Babies.  Poltergeist II has nothing to do with either Speilberg
or Hooper. (Hooper was scheduled to be there but was stuck in Texas
doing another Chainsaw Massacre(sp?) movie).  It looks to be heavy
on the special effects and not much else.  Star Babies seems to be a
cross between sports and SF.  The preview outlined the plot (if you
can call it that).  They didn't want to give too much away but it
seemed awfully dippy.  We all had a good laugh.

The Guests: The most notable guest was Mark Lenard (Sarek of Star
Trek).  He liked to talk about subjects other than Star Trek which
left little room for questions.  The only mildy revealing questions
were:

"Do Amanda and Sarek go back in time?"  Answer: No.

"Does ST IV solve the problem of the Enterprise?" Answer: (long
pause) Yes.

That last question was ambiguous enough to keep 'em curious for a
few days.  It depends on what you think the Enterprise Problem is.
Lack of a ship?  Or getting the Enterprise back?

He told us what Harve Bennett has said already, that ST IV will be
humorous.  No big news.  Today there is supposed to be a ST IV
question-answer session but since I'm not there...

The other guest was the man who plays the Brigadier on Dr. Who.  I
forget his name offhand since I don't watch the show that often.  I
could see the big difference between the Star Trek fans and Dr. Who
fans (at this convention) by the questions.  A typical question to
the Brigadier was:

"Have you ever met an alien that wasn't impervious to bullets?"

The rest of the questions dealt with which Doctor he liked working
with best, to which he would answer "The one I was working with at
the time".

Most of the question to Mark Lenard were about him and NOT ST IV.
Curious.  He even said "I know what you all want to know about (the
movie)" but less than half of the questions were about that.  I
enjoyed it.  Hopefully someone at the convention today will fill us
in on those Star Trek IV previews I'm missing.  Mark Lenard is
supposed to talk angain today, also.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 86 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #116
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 May 86 17:03:48 GMT
From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: Legolas and the Moria door inscription

From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
>The inscription on the door was in Sindarin (Grey Elvish), not
>Quenya (High Elvish).  Is is made very clear in the Appendices to
>Lord of the Rings that although most of the people that Thranduil
>King of the Elves of Mirkwood ruled were Silvan Elves, he and his
>son Legolas were Sindar and therefore spoke Sindarin.

My apologies. My copy of tLotR doesn't have the appendices and it is
a long time since I read a copy which did. It is also some time
since I read the Silmarilion, where it discusses the history of the
three races of Elves after the destruction of Beleriand. I guessed
it was Quenya because I thought the people of Hollan (?) (the Elvish
kingdom west of Moria) were mainly Noldor (being led by Celeborn and
Galadrial). I also forgot about Thranduil being a Sindar.

Fortunately, it was my second argument which was important (and
right!).

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP: mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 7 May 86 17:56:17 GMT

bhaskar@cvl.UUCP writes:
>Does the author explicitly mention anywhere what type of "being"
>Gandalf was ? Several species of life are mentioned - hobbits, men,
>dwarves, elves among them. Into which category did Gandalf fit ? Is
>Wizard a separate class ?
>
>If Tolkien does say something definite, I would like to know where
>it is said .

The best source of information is in "The Unfinished Tales" (of
course, it may not be published in the states). One of the tales is
of the meeting of the Valar to decide what should be done about
Sauron. In the end they choose to send a few of the lesser spirits
(I can't remember their name) as wizards to Middle Earth to unite
the people against Sauron. I think there also hints about this in
the appendices of the Lord of the Rings and in the "Silmarilon".
"The Unfinished tales" even gives Gandalf's real name!

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:  mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:      ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

From: rlvd!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: Gandalf
Date: 7 May 86 18:02:11 GMT

sah@ukc.ukc.ac.uk (S.A.Hill) writes:
>Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter were probably Maia as well.
>(See "A Tolkien Bestiary").

I don't see how this can be. Gandalf was frightened even to touch
the Ring because he knew he be ensnared by it. Tom Bombadil played
with it, twirling round his finger, with no concern; and at the
council of Elrond (I think) it is said that the ring could have no
hold on him. That suggests to me that Tom was even greater than
Sauron in all his malice!

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:  mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:      ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Writing fantasy
Date: 9 May 86 22:15:25 GMT

alfke@csvax.caltech.edu writes:

>Karl W. Z. Heuer (ihnp4!bentley!kwh) writes:
>>*I don't like fantasy.  I feel that anybody can write fiction if
>>he gets to make up his own rules.  I like hard SF, with premises
>>that are plausible if not probable, and thought-provoking.  I did
>>read _The Hobbit_, and wasn't too impressed.  Please don't flame
>>me for my opinions; they're mine, and I don't want to hear that
>>Tolkien is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Btw, I'm not
>>claiming that Star Wars is all that hot either.
>
>Can you really not accept any fiction that could not actually
>happen given more-or-less bogus scientific advances?  This is just
>as unimaginative and narrow-minded an attitude as exhibited by
>those types who dismiss SF as trash because "it can't happen".

I think he's flaming about the fact that anyone can throw nonsense
together, while SF is mostly consistent.  Maybe he's rigth w.r.t BAD
fantasy...

But GOOD fantasy is, if anything, HARDER to write than SF.  Or any
other branch of literature.  (Flames re: ``literature'' to
/dev/null.)  Not only is the author throwing together ideas that
don't apply in the so-called ``real'' world, he must make them
CONSISTENT with themselves, each other, and what part of the ``real
world'' he keeps.  Tolkien succeeds at this; many other fantasy
authors ignore consistency altogether.  Given this, it's not hard to
see why Tolkien's considered so good: Middle-Earth is consistent,
from THE HOBBIT to LORD OF THE RINGS to THE SILMARILLION.  AND it's
consistent with mythology (recall that Middle-Earth was originally
an attempt to give England a mythology of its own; Tol Eressea
stopped being the British Isles ultimately, but (as an example of
mythological consistency), the following Elvish names can be found
in THE SILMARILLION (in the Akallabeth):

Elvish    more common   If you really need it...        Translation

Avallone  Tol Eressea   Avalon (and British mythology   `Near Valinor'
                               rears its head again!)
Atalante  Numenor       Atlantis                        `Downfallen'

I daresay he worked even more interesting stuff into the Quenya
(High-elven) language, but doesn't make it obvious in the
SILMARILLION.  Maybe in the UNFINISHED TALES he does a few more...)

[I should note that the idea of King Arthur being taken to Tol
Eressea strikes me as slightly strange; *that* relationship we could
have done without.]

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105,
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 86 17:55:52 GMT
From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu (          LAK)
Subject: Re: The Istari

okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>It is interesting that both Curumo (Saruman) and Olorin (Gandalf)
>are Maiar of Aule, the "tinkerer" of Valinor, and that one falls
>but the other does not.

I thought Olorin was a Maiar of Lorien. By the way, Sauron was also
a Maiar of Aule.

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 86 18:25:46 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher)
Subject: Women in Tolkien, continued

Okay, I asked the question about "why no female Istari?" in Tolkien,
or other good role models, for that matter.  I confess, I'd
forgotten the Lady Haleth, who led the Second House of "Men" to
Beleriand in the First Age.  (A warrior, true, but less inclined to
romanticize it all than Eowyn of Rohan, I'll bet!)

Also: in tracking down someone's reference to a belief that Gandalf
was Manwe, which I did indeed find (p. 395, paperback _Unf. Tales_,
but JRRT mentions it only to debunk it), I wound up rereading this
gem of early feminism, which even Christopher Tolkien admits is a
"remarkable" passage:


(*deleted*)

[pp. 206-207, _Unfinished Tales_ (Boston:  Houghton Mifflin, 1982).]

(Quoted without permission or apologies; I expect some of you to go
out and buy their book!)

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr.
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 16:42:41 GMT
From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Tolkien - another can of worms

   So you thought the last Tolkien posting generated a lot of mail?
Just wait 'til you see this one!!

   Background: I've got all the books up to "Lost Tales II" (btw,
what's "Lays Of Beleriand" like, anybody?), but unfortunately they
are some miles away at present, so please bear with any inexact
references. Anyway, in "The Silmarillion" and other places, it says
that Melkor (or Morgoth, as you prefer) created the Orcs by doing
nasty things to captured Elves, whom he abducted from around Lake
Cuivienen before the Valar found the Firstborn. As we all know,
Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to Middle-Earth and all
that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* I mean, all Orcs have,
albeit *very* distantly, Elvish ancestors, so do they share in the
immortality? And what happens to a dead Orc? Does it go to a special
section of the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) and get reborn later on, like
Elves do (I think)?

   Food for thought: in "Return Of The King", two of the Mordor Orcs
are overheard by Frodo and/or Sam discussing the upcoming war, and
say something like "It'll be just like the bad old days". Does this
mean

   (a) The Battle Of The Five Armies at the end of "The Hobbit".
       Most recent, but seems unlikely.

   (b) The seige of Barad-Dur at the end of the Second Age by
       Isildur and Co., at the time of the Last Alliance.

   (c) The final battle outside Thangorodrim at the end of The First
       Age; in which case those orcs have got a *looong* memory.

or are the orcs not recounting personal memories? Apologies for not
having the exact reference.

   Re Tom Bombadil; doesn't it say somewhere in "The Silmarillion"
that not all the Maia lived with the Valar, and that there were
"rogue" (so to speak) Maia who didn't acknowledge Manwe, but were
still good, and lived here and there in Middle-Earth? I always
thought Tom Bombadil was one of these, and the One Ring didn't
affect him because he was too powerful in his own little domain.
Remember that the Ring only contained a part of Sauron's power, and
if Tom was a Maiar, his power certainly wouldn't be deliberately
limited like that of Gandalf and the Istari. However, it was said at
the Council Of Elrond that even Tom couldn't stand against the full
might of Sauron, though he would be the last to succumb.

Anybody know a good medium, then we could ask JRRT himself? :-)

David Allsopp

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 01:04:36 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: doors of Moria

MRC@PANDA writes:
>The inscription on the doors of Moria were written in Quenya (High
>Elvish).  Legolas, as a wood-elf, would speak Sindarin as "common
>elvish" and his own local dialect at home.  He wouldn't know Quenya
>-- very few elves did.  Read The Silmarillion to find out why.
>
>The doors of Moria were built for Durin III (I think) by
>Celebrimbor, the leader of the elves of Eregion (Hollin) which was
>the last nation of Quenya-speaking elves on Middle-Earth.

   Several people seem to have made this mistake. Yes, the elves of
Eregion *were* High Elves in large part, but they spoke Sindarin in
the normal course of events. Tolkien stated in several places that
Quenya had become a sort of elvish Latin, used only for matters of
lore even by the High Elves. It had been abandoned as a spoken
language before the end of the First Age in Middle Earth due to the
strain caused by the Kin-slaying.
   Furthermore, the door inscription is recognizable as Sindarin on
the basis of phonetics, grammar, and orthography. The mode of cirth
used on the gate is one described in the Appendices as devised for
Sindarin, and was quite different from the Quenya mode. Also the
preponderance of double consonants like 'nn' and 'll' is more
typical of Sindarin than Quenya. Furthermore the fricatives 'ch',
and 'th' are *unknown* in Quenya. Finally, the use of mutation and
mixed suffixes for declension is trypical of Sindarin rather than
Quenya, which is more of a synthetic language, similar to Finnish
grammatically. In Quenya the inscription would start out "Andor
Nurino, Aran Morio, queta melda ar ..." or some variant thereon.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 02:13:46 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language
Subject: trivia)

platt@cit-vax.UUCP (John Platt) writes:
>Yes, indeed, "Languages of Middle Earth" was written by Ruth Noel.
>A good book... especially for resolving disputes about Elvish
>trivia. Another good book is "Mythology of Middle Earth," also by
>Ruth Noel, which traces down the mythological roots of Tolkien's
>work.

   I cannot let this pass, Ruth Noel's book is very *poorly* done,
with numerous major gaffes. My copy has penciled-in corrections on
almost every page! In the gramatical section she consistantly fails
to realize that Tolkien's English translations of elvish phrases
were highly colloquial and tries to make the *exact* English match
the elvish. Thus she lists "utulien" as a present tense and
"utulie'n" as a past tense on the *same* page. And her "past" tense
list mixes the historic past with the perfect tense!(utulie is in
fact a perfect tense). In the same vein she fails to realize that
words in different languages seldom match exactly in meaning and
treats words and endings translated by the same English word as full
synonyms. For instance, in the "elvish" inscription on the title
page she uses the suffix "-ve" for a genitive! Just because both may
be translated as "of" does *not* make them equivalent! In fact "-ve"
is a compositive or a partitive and *cannot* be used in a possessive
sense! In fact that same inscription other errors. I find it
particularly hideous that she uses the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand
to write *Quenya*. And in the dictionary portion she completely
fails to distinguish between Old Quenya(or Cuivalin as I call it)
and Quenya proper, as it existed during the times of the chronicles.
   And the preceding is just a *brief* list of some of the errors.
Hopefully I will get my own Elvish Dictionary finished before too
much longer and then there will be a truly scholarly work on these
languages available. For one thing, I am taking longer about it and
reviewing my work for accuracy, that one reason why it isn't done
yet.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 86 0801-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #117
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 May 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:

            Books - Aldiss (2 msgs) & Asimov (2 msgs) &
                    Ellison & Godwin & Laumer & Varley &
                    SF Tie-ins & Funny SF,
            Television - Doctor Who,
            Miscellaneous - Convention Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 20:07:30 GMT
From: ritcv!laa8399@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindon A. Archer)
Subject: Helliconia Summer

Does any one out there know if there will be another sequel?  In
case some of you do not know, there is also a Helliconia Spring.
The ending of Helliconia Summer certainly left me wanting for more!

While I am on the subject of asking if sequels have come out, is
there a new Dragon Rider novel to follow The White Dragon?  Anne
McCaffrey really has a winner with that series of novels.

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 01:07:36 GMT
From: ritcv!iav1917@caip.rutgers.edu (alan i. vymetalik)
Subject: Re: Helliconia Summer

Well, guess what?  There is a sequel.  It's called Helliconia
Winter.  I saw it on the racks at B. Dalton's yesterday.  If I
remember, it was in the large-trade paperback format.  I had run out
of money so I couldn't get it.

Enjoy!
alan i. vymetalik
Bitnet:  aiv1974@ritvaxd
UUCP:    {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!iav1917

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 21:09:25 GMT
From: hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dan Green)
Subject: Isaac Asimov, Robots of Dawn

On the subject of mis-spellings in science fiction literature:
   I just bought "The Robots of Dawn" by Isaac Asimov, a book that
is acclaimed and proudly states, "over 3 months on the NYT
bestseller list".  Yet, there is an omission on one of the text
lines.
   Specifically, on page 45:
      "If one accepted the fact that human beings had learned to
      manipulate hyperspace without understanding the thing they
      manipulated, then the effect was clear.  At one moment, the
      ship had been within microparsecs of [*], and at the next
      moment, it was in microparsecs of Aurora."

Clearly, there should be the word "Earth" where I have a [*] marked.
This indicates that computer spelling checkers were used almost
exclusively, as this omission would easily have been caught by a
human reader.  When even the top (in volume :-) author with a
bestseller has technical mistakes in his book, it makes you wonder
how much the publishers really care about presentation quality.

*** Change of Subject *** Some people have been arguing over whether
Asimov has a son or a daughter or both.  Well in Robots of Dawn he
implies (through Dr. Fastolfe) that he likes his daughter better:

   (From page 154)
      Finally, Fastolfe said, "I don't know what I ought to tell
   you, but let me go back some decades.  I have two daughters [...]"
      "Would you rather have had sons, Dr. Fastolfe?"
      Fastolfe looked genuinely surprised.  "No.  Not at all [...]
   I would have accepted a son, you understand, but I didn't want to
   abandon the chance of a daughter.  I approve of daughters,
   somehow."

Well it is not too good a practice to read into this sort of thing,
but I had to!  On the last page Biography blurb, Asimov mentions
that he has two children, by a previous marriage.

Something else occured to me, too.  In the Caves of Steel, Dr.
Fastolfe was always talking about the C-Fe (Carbon and Iron)
society, which is pronounced "See Fee".  Might this not be a bad pun
on "Sci Fi" ???

I thought Robots of Dawn was a very good book; even though I waited
three months to get it, I really did enjoy it once I read it (in one
sitting!)

Dan Green
Bitnet:  hsgj@cornella
UUCP:    {decvax,ihnp4,allegra,vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!hsgj
Arpa:    hsgj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 07:22:18 GMT
From: lsuc!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Another Foundation novel

A couple of days ago, I wrote:
> Isaac Asimov's 6th Foundation book, "Foundation and Earth", will
> be published this fall.  This information comes from a friend at
> Doubleday, who adds that it will the 100th book of his that they
> will have published.  This is all I know about it.  But now I'll
> have to get around to reading my copy of "Robots and Empire"!

Only when my friend heard that I'd given them some free publicity,
he gave me more information.  Revise "fall" publication to
"September".  ISBN will be 0-385-233124.  There will be a signed
limited edition of 150 copies, with the ISBN 0-385-23709-X,
published simultaneously with the regular hardcover edition (of
which the first printing by the way, will be 150,000 copies).
Reprint rights have been sold to Ballantine / Del Rey, and British
rights to Grafton.

Asimov's total count of books now stands at "over 340".

The story apparently carries on from the end of Foundation's Edge,
following up on thread of finding Earth, and the information sheet
refers to this as the 5th Foundation novel, not 6th; which leaves me
wondering where "Robots and Empire" fits in ... I WILL have to read
it and find out, now.

And scheduled for September 1988: "Prelude to Foundation".

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 86 22:20 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Funny SF

How can we go into funny stories without reading Harlan Ellison's
anthology, The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World?
It includes A Boy and his Dog, Along the Scenic Route (Freeway
driving at it's worst!), and one of my all time favorites, Santa
Claus vs S.P.I.D.E.R.

Please, allow me a small SPOILER!!!!!! for this story with Santa as
a secret agent.  The description of his red suit.  Here goes...

The Armorer pointed with the stem of the pipe.  It was a mannerism.
"Well, you've got the usual stuff: the rockets, the jet-pack, the
napalm, the mace and the Mace, the throwing knives, the
high-pressure hoses, the boot-spikes, the .30 calibre machine guns,
the acid, the flammable beard, the stomach still inflates into a
raft, the flamethrower, the plastic explosives, the red rubber nose
grenade, the belt tool-kit, the boomerang, the bolo, the bolas, the
machete, the derringer, the belt-buckle time bomb, the lockpick
equipment, the scuba gear, the camera and Xerox attachment in the
hips, the steel mittens with the extensible hooks, the gas mask, the
poison gas, the shark repellent, the sterno stove, the survival
rations, and the microfilm library of one hundred great books."
   Kris pulled a sour face. "If I ever fall over I'll be like a
turtle on its back."
   The Armorer gave Kris a jab of camaraderie, high on the left
bicep.  "You're a great kidder, Kris."  He pointed to the boots.
"Gyroscopes.  Keep you level at all times.  You _can't_ fall over."

Kris has to fight all the great politicians, who have been taken
over by S.P.I.D.E.R., including Nixon, Agnew, Daley, Reagan, and
others.  Copyright 1968.  This stuff was years ahead of it's time.
Four stars, check it out twice!

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: <moorel@eglin-vax>
Subject: Parke Godwin's _The_Last_Rainbow_

                         **** A Review ****

_The Last Rainbow_ by Parke Godwin is listed as being the final book
in his Arthurian trilogy, the first two being _Firelord_ and
_Beloved Exile_.  Actually, it shares only a common world, and
concerns the adventures of Saint Patrick among the Prydn, Godwin's
Faerie. The attractive thing about the previous books was that they
presented the Arthurian legends in a grittily realistic manner and
removed a lot of the "standard" magical gimmicry. The Prydn served
to illuminate the Arthurian story in the previous books, and their
magic was presented in a way that one could find an explanation for
it if one worked at it.

The magic was too much of a plot device in The Last Rainbow, and it
interfered with Godwin's attempts to "humanize" St. Patrick. The
flights of fancy delivered by the Prydn magic become harder and
harder to accept, and the story suffers substantially. Godwin also
spends the last third of the book trying to set up the Prydn for
their role in _Firelord_, and comes up with a ridiculous device to
incorporate the legends of travels to islands in the west (ie.
America).

The Last Rainbow is about how Father Patricius ends up among the
Prydn. While he attempts to teach them Christianity, they attempt to
teach him their own traditions and tolerance. Of course, he learns
to love them and ends up in bed with the heroine, after interminable
haggling. He then leads his Christianized Prydn off to war for
Ambrosius, taking desparate losses, and losing his faith.
Subsequently, he regains his faith through Prydn magic, the clan he
has been living with head off to America, and he returns to Ireland
to become St.  Patrick. Much of this silliness is documented with
"actual" letters from his mentor, Bishop Meganius, to Rome; whether
these missives actually exist or not, they are obvious attempts to
"prove" Godwin's version of the story.

On the whole, I do not recommend this book. It moralizes, plods
interminably, telegraphs turning points for pages beforehand, and
lastly, reaches further and further into the hat for contrivances to
tie together the dangling plot lines. The first two books are
excellent; reread them instead.  On the -4 to +4 scale, I'd give
this one a -1.

Lynne C. Moore <moorel@eglin-vax.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 19:50:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: lark's vomit and Keith Laumer

From:   uiucdcsb!bolotin        (Russel Dalenberg)
> I can't sit by and see a publisher maligned. Laumer's books
> (especially the Retief books) have ALWAYS been like this!  Laumer
> seems to love re-packaging his stories to fool unwary buyers. Be
> alert, but watch for the name "Laumer"; not the publisher "Bean".

I can't sit by and see an author maligned. Laumer's books have *not*
"always" been like this. Only since Jim Baen got his hands on them.
"What?" you say, "Baen Books have only been around a short time. Tor
was publishing Laumer before that. And Ace and Pocket Books before
that." Ah, but until he formed Baen Books, Jim Baen was editor of
Tor Books (helped found it, in fact) and editor at Ace before
*that*. It is Baen who is responsible for the Laumer packaging that
you so despise. If you look at the Retief books that were published
by Pocket/Timescape, you won't notice this devious packaging; David
Hartwell knew better. Notice also that Laumer is *not* the only one
that Baen has been packaging like this at both Tor and Baen Books.

Be alert, but watch for the publisher "Baen", not the name "Laumer".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 86 18:10:04 GMT
From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Re: Varley's characters

ajb@mruxe.UUCP (A J Burstein) writes:
>As far as I can remember, all of John Varley's stories have had
>female main characters.  Does anyone know of one of his stories in
>which the protagonist is female?
>
>Before I get in trouble (or is it too late?) I'd like to point out
>that I don't think there is anything wrong with this.  In fact I
>think it is a refreshing change.  While female writers may often
>use male characters, they are simply following society's
>traditions: most books are dominated by male characters, and a few
>have a balance of men and women as main characters.  Varley is
>definitely -- and deliberately? -- bucking the norm.  Comments
>anyone?

I think your assumption is correct. I have read four of his books,
the "Titan" series, and "Millennium". I don't know what else he has
published, but in these, his female protaganists were also very much
sexually uninhibited, having as sexual partners men, women, animals
(Titanides), and a robot. He is very good at writing erotica, i.e.,
the scene where the ghost (spirit, whatever) of Gaby makes love to
Cirroco Jones. Some of you may find his writing offensive, but I
enjoy it a great deal.

Hank Buurman
...tektronix!tekla!hankb

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 08:59:05 GMT
From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher)
Subject: Re: Cute SF tie-ins

This may be a little out of date, but recently some people were
discussing tie-ins in Buck Rogers & Star Trek with traditional SF
stories. Well,...

In Jack Chalker's _And_the_Devil_Will_Drag_You_Under_, there was a
scene in a somewhat fantasyish dimension, where I (think) the woman
was trying to steal a gem from a dangerous castle or something of
that ilk. At one point Chalker briefly describes a whole slew of
strange characters. When I was rereading the book in a fit of
boredom (NEVER, NEVER, reread anything by Chalker -- it can't handle
the scrutiny. Likewise Hogan. [And anything of Foster's which could
handle the scrutiny of the first reading.]) I suddenly realized that
one pair of characters sounded an awful lot like Fafrhd and the
Mouser. And, hey, this guy could be Conan, and him over here,
somebody else famous but obviously not famous enough for me to
remember him, and, and, well, I never did figure out who they all
were and wouldn't mind being told. But it was fun pondering the
surprise.

L. Neil Smith wrote a slightly neat book once called
_The_Probability_Broach_, which is extremely Libertarian. What makes
it less neat is that he keeps rewriting it -- he even went so far as
to write a book which was totally unrelated until about halfway
through when he wimped out and tied it back in to his standard
universe. (Although he did write the Bucketeers book, which was
unrelated.) Anyway, the latest that I've seen is about the usual
characters going back in time to stop an insidious plot to change
history by one "Edna Janof". Now, at a couple of points [uh, oh,
deja vu, have I mentioned this before?]  she is described as wearing
tights, leg-warmers, and a red & black striped body-suit. Sound
familiar? I'll give you a hint: Edna Janof is an anagram for Jane
Fonda. What would Smith have against the Fondoid? I can't believe
this is a coincidence. (Of course, I can't believe HAL was a
coincidence either, no matter what Clarke or Kubrick say.)

Who is "cargo master Dane Thorson"?

jacob

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 86 20:20:43 GMT
From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: And! More! Funny! SF!

I recommend a book by the name something like "Who goes here" and I
think by Bob Shaw. It's a time-travel story that includes a lot of
tongue-in-cheek and is very well thought out. It's been years since
I read it so I'm not sure who published it or if it's still around.

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 86 13:52:41 GMT
From: kcl-cs!flynn@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC429)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>Concerning the story "Face of Evil" from the Tom Baker era:
>
>The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's
>since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation.

I think it's accepted that not every one of the Doctor's adventures
is seen on television. Take, for example, the references to Jo Grant
in "Timelash" or the Doctor's earlier visit to Jocunda before "The
Twin Dillemma" (dilemma??). Hence, it's presumably quite possible
that the Doctor slipped-off on his own to Leela's planet at some
point before "The Face Of Evil", returning to Earth to continue his
"televised" encounters.

A.Flynn

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 86 23:43:39 GMT
From: sdcc6!ix312@caip.rutgers.edu (ix312)
Subject: Star Trek Convention

To whom it might concern: there will be a Star Trek/ Dr Who
convention at the Red Lion Inn, San Jose, CA during the weekend of
July 26 this summer (fri,sat,sun) Guests are: Jimmy Doohan(Scotty),
George Takei(Sulu) and Walter Koenig(Chekov) From Dr Who, we have
Anthony Ainley(the Master). For more information, write to
TIMECON'86 124-H BLOSSOM HILL RD., SAN JOSE, CA 95123 USA.

THANKS!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 86 0830-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #118
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 May 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony & Hodgell & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                  Powers & Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) &
                  Ordering Books & Soviet SF & Funny SF,
          Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide,
          Television - Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 21:46:59 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: The Apprentice Adept series

> I remember some info, which I present below, please respond with
> any clarifications or corrections.
>
>   Black - Magic Powers were in creating thing from lines.
>   Yellow - Created magic Potions.
>   Brown - Created Golems.
>   Orange - Magic Powers included the control of Plants.
>   White - ?

If memory serves correctly, the White Adept was (ahem!) adept at
cold/ice and used gestures to invoke them.

>   Red    - Created magic Amulets

Let's not forget the Tan Adept, who had the Evil Eye, or was it the
Green Adept who had it?  The other one could shape change people by
eye contact.

>   Blue - Magic summoned through verse. The more musical, the
>          more powerful.
>
> Another question, did Stiles (Blue) need to play music before he
> voices his musical incantation? Also, what other types of magic
> were there?

His name is  "Stile", not "Stiles".

Anthony has said that he is interested in writing sequels to the
series.  It seems obvious to me that what it will concern is
Stile/The Blue Adept's adventures on the other side of the OTHER
curtain (recall Stile's and Lady Blue's honeymoon to the West Pole).
What will he find there?

Jeff Okamoto
..!ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 07:12:04 GMT
From: ucla-cs!cc@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: P. G. Hodgell

tewok@maryland.UUCP (Uncle Wayne) writes:
>soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes:
>>Has anyone read the new book by P. G. Hodgell called (I think)
>>*Dark is the Moon*?  I saw it in a bookstore, in hardcover, so I
>>didn't get it.  It is a sequel to *Godstalk* (which I enjoyed,
>>although I gather a fair number of net.people didn't).
>
>At last!  I've been hoping Hodgell would bring out a sequel to
>*Godstalk*.  I am also one of the few that enjoyed it.  What were
>the reasons against it?

I am also surprised by this... I missed the discussion of
"Godstalk", else I would have added my voice in supporting it. It
was a marvelously done book that had some VERY good and detailed
analysis of the relationship between people and gods.

As for _Dark is the Moon_, it is out and I have missed it! I was
ready and willing to shell out the $$$ for the hardcover (and I am a
starving student!)  but can not find it ANYWHERE (even in The Change
Of Hobbit!). Anyone knows who published the book?

Oleg Kiselev

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 08:18:33 GMT
From: unc!boughton@caip.rutgers.edu (James Boughton)
Subject: Re: Re: Eternal Champion

> Has Moorcock written anything that did not in some way connect
> with everything else he's written?  I seem to recall, although I
> can't think quite where, my collection being 600 miles away, that
> the Eternal Champion books connected to the Jerry
> Cornelius/Dancers at the End of time books.

I don't know of any fiction that Moorcock has written that he has
not tied into the Eternal Champion series in some manner or another
(such as having the main character mentioned as an aspect of the
Eternal Champion in another story, or having Una Persson appear
somewhere in the story).

He has allegedly written at least two works of non fiction, although
I don't know if either has appeared in print in this country. One is
a based on the movie about the Sex Pistols, the Great Rock'n'Roll
Swindle.  The other was a book about fantasy. I do have a pamphlet
based on one of the chapters of that book - it is about Tolkien and
called Epic Pooh.  (As you might gather from the title, Moorcock is
not very fond of Tolkien...) I can't imagine these two books being
part of the Eternal Champion, but one never knows.....

Jim Boughton

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 09:35:51 GMT
From: unc!boughton@caip.rutgers.edu (James Boughton)
Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands

haviland@uvm-gen.UUCP (Tom Haviland) writes:
>In the same vein, a couple of Blue Oyster Cult songs,
>_Veteran_of_the_Psychic_Wars_ and _Black_Blade_ were cowritten by
>Moorcock.  _Black_Blade_ seems to be about Elric, with lots of
>references to the sword controlling him and the like.  I don't know
>if _Veteran_ is about any specific story, but it appears the the
>soundtrack to _Heavy_Metal_.  Both songs can also be found on (I
>think) BOC's album _Cultosaurus_Erectus_.  Good tunes, too.

Veteran of the Psychic Wars is not on Cultosaurus Erectus - I think
it is on Fire of Unknown Origin, but I am not positive. (It is on
the Heavy Metal Soundtrack too.) There is a third Moorcock/BOC
collaboration, on Mirrors, called Sun Jester and it is about the
main character in the Moorcock novel The Fire Clown.  It's my
favorite of the three.

   "They have killed the great Sun Jester
    They have killed the Fire Clown"

I don't know if past couple BOC albums have any Moorcock tunes on
them.

Jim Boughton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 86 13:51:03 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: William Ashbless

appears to be turning into one of those mythical characters that
various people use in the fringes of their books. Powers quotes from
(Metamorphoses?  Inferno?) in (allegedly) the Ashbless translation
at the beginning of DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE, and in his newest
book (a rewrite of his first, originally a Laser book) the hero runs
across a collection of Ashbless's poetry. It's not surprising that A
also shows up in Blaylock, as SF authors occasionally borrow
characters and A is set up as a stranger in THE ANUBIS GATES.
   We'll know it's serious when Farmer comes out with an Ashbless
biography.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 03:00:45 GMT
From: h-sc2!mckenzie_b@caip.rutgers.edu (david mckenzie)
Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_

     The Codex Seraphinianus is a wonderfully strange book written
and illustrated by the Italian architect Luigi Serafini.  It
describes the science/botany/anthropology/sociology/architecture/
technology/etc. of an invented world arising (presumably) out of
Serafini's bizarre imagination.  The book is lavishly illustrated
with many beautiful and strange color drawings of Serafinian
objects/people/scenes/etc.  The catch is that the whole book
(including page numbers!) is written in a hitherto unknown language
invented by Luigi Serafini!  Furthermore, this language is set down
in a strange script, also invented by Mr. Serafini.
     I was turned on to the Codex (as I assume others were) by
Douglas Hofstadter, who mentions it in his 'Metamagical Themas'
(another wonderful book).  Trying to fathom the Codex could well
become a full-time job.  It's also great for freaking out your
friends, and the illustrations are beautiful in their own right.  (I
particularly like the walking trees, the yarn-people, lamp-people
and gondola-people, and the lovers -> crocodiles sequence.)
     There are two editions of the Codex; the original Italian
edition in two volumes, and a one-volume edition published by
someone in New York.  The prices of these are respectively
astronomical and merely outrageous, so try to find it in a library.
(So far, I'm the only person to have taken it out of the Harvard
Fine Arts Library - I guess that people around here haven't caught
on to it yet.)  Any very large college library with a slightly
eccentric purchasing agent should have a copy (I hope).

David McKenzie
UUCP: ...seismo!harvard!h-sc4!h-sc2!mckenzie_b
ARPA: mckenzie_b%h-sc2@harvard.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 07:02:16 GMT
From: cc@ucla-cs.ARPA (UCLA Computer Club)
Subject: Re: _Codex_Seraphinianus_

Well, CODEX is a what appears to be a small encyclopaedia that
describes most aspects of biology, technology and culture of an
almost human-looking race that exists in an almost Earth-looking
environment that are both mundane and incredibly fantastic. The book
is very craftily put together and the illustrations are of very high
quality. All writing is done in an alien flowing script (no
guaranties given about the lack of misspellings! :-)

Glen, I *have* the book. If you can hang on 'till July, we can
arrange for me to bring it to ORIGINS and you can look at it. OK?

Oleg Kiselev

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 86 18:25:06 PDT
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Ordering Books

  I've noticed several queries about how to obtain a particular
book.  Here are two good sources for mailordering -- they ship
promptly (once they get the books) and I at least trust them.

  A CHANGE OF HOBBIT
  1853 Lincoln Blvd.
  Santa Monica, Calif. 90404
  (213) GREAT SF
  They do not issue a catalog. However, they have a monthly
newsletter which lists upcoming titles. You can subscribe by sending
in a bunch of SASEs -- your subscription lasts as long as your
envelopes do.
  They also have a fair amount of out of print and used books.
  They accept want lists.
  They have pre-paid accounts, which means they can ship books as
soon as they arrive in the store.
  Write for their mail ordering information (send an SASE !).

  MARK V. ZIESING
  P.O.BOX 806
  Willimantic, CT. 06226
  (203) 423-5836 days
  (203) 423-3867 evenings
  He issues a catalog which includes some one line reviews.
  He carries in stock most in print hardcovers and a fair number of
paperbacks. He is, naturally, the best source for Ziesing Bros.
Press books (they originally printed Castle of the Otter, and
they're Free Live Free come out 6 mos. before and had a better cover
than the Tor edition).
  He carries a lot of out of print and used books, both hardback and
paperback.
  You can send want lists and open an account and all.
  Write for the catalog. There's no charge for being on the mailing
list.
  A lot of small press books pretty much have to be ordered from
the publisher. I have some addresses and upcoming information, but
I'd like more. Send mail to me -- I'll summarize to the net if
there's enough interest.

Linda Wald
math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 86 11:03 EDT
From: Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #110

Back in the 1980 time frame I bought a collection of short stories
under the header of Soviet SF.  The stories in this edition were by
Kiril Bulshyev (probably misspelled that), and the back cover
promised more collections by different Russian authors.  I haven't
seen any others, and haven't written to the publisher yet, but has
anybody spotted these books?  Where can I find them?

Thanks

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 10:09:36 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Humorous sf (Chap Foey Rider)

> From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
> Analog also published a few stories some years back revolving
> around a Chinese immigrant businessman named Chap Foey Rider....
> [...]  Alas, I do not remember who the author is.

Ah, I remember those stories well. The author was Hayford Peirce
[*sic*]. There were 5 stories altogether:

   "Mail Supremacy"               Mar 1975
   "Doing Well While Doing Good"  Aug 1975
   "Rebounder"                    Apr 1976
   "The Missionaries' Position"   Jan 1977
   "Children of Invention"        Mar 1977

And I agree with your assessment. I thought the first story was
wonderful, though they slowly declined in quality as they came out.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 21:16:07 GMT
From: srouse@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: HHGttG: Share and Enjoy.

bingaman@dcc1.UUCP (George C. Bingaman) writes:
>   I am seeking a quote from the radio version of
>_The_Hitchhikers_Guide_to_the Galaxy_ that has been broadcast over
>NPR in the USA.  The quote is set up by a discussion (by the
>guide?) about the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned
>complaint/customer service department of the Sirius Cybernetics
>Corporation....
>   Did anyone out there in net-land manage to tape this particular
>episode and extract the lyrics?  If so, I would dearly love a copy.
>In fact, the text from the beginning of the discussion thru the end
>of the song would be greatly appreciated, but I don't want to be
>greedy.

I figured that there are others out there who would like to know the
words to the song, and the story behind the slogan, so...

(excerpted from episode eight of The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the
Galaxy BBC Radio series. All copyrights reserved for someone else.
No, I didn't use the scripts so there might be some minor errors...)

Eddie: Hi There!

Zaphod: Computer. Get us on an improbability trajectory out of here
   pronto.

Eddie: Sorry guys, I can't do that right now. All of my circuits are
  currently engaged in solving a different problem. Now, I know that
  this is very unusual, but it is a very difficult and challenging
  problem, and I know that the result will be one that we can all
  share and enjoy. Share and enjoy.

Narrator (Book): "Share and Enjoy", is of course the company motto of
  the hugely successful Sirius Cybernetics Corporation Complaints
  Division, which now covers the major land masses of three medium
  sized planets, and is the only part of the corporation to show a
  consistent profit in recent years. The motto stands, or rather
  stood, in three mile high, illuminated letters, near the
  complaints department spaceport on Edrax. "Share and Enjoy".
  Unfortunately, its weight was such that, shortly after it was
  erected, the ground beneath the letters caved in and they dropped
  for nearly half their length through the underground offices of
  many talented young complaints executives, now deceased. The
  protruding upper halves of the letters now appear in the local
  language to read, "Go stick your head in a pig.", and are no
  longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration. At
  these times of special celebration, a choir of company robots sing
  the company song, "Share and Enjoy".  Unfortunately, again,
  another of the computing errors, for which the company is justly
  famous, means that the robots' voice boxes are exactly a
  flattened fifth out of tune, and the result sounds something like
  this...

[out of tune fanfare on a synthesiser]

Robots (singing a flattened fifth out of tune):

   Share and enjoy, share and enjoy.
   Journey through life with a plastic boy,
   or girl by your side. Let your pal be your guide.
   And when it breaks down or starts to annoy,
   or grinds when it moves and gives you no joy,
   'cuz it eats up your hat or has sex with your cat,
   leaks oil on your wall or rips off your door,
   and you get to the point you can't stand anymore.
   Bring him to us we won't give a fig. We'll tell you..
   "Go stick your head in a pig".

Narrator (Book): ...only, slightly worse.

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 1986 09:34:03 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: Who again?

>Just because we didn't see the Doctor and Sarah actually visit the
>planet doesn't mean that they were never there.  While their early
>adventures from "Robot" to "The Android Invasion" pretty much
>follow directly in sequence, there are numerous gaps in their later
>adventures together where they might have popped off without us
>knowing.

    Ok, so it *is* possible that the Doctor had visited the Sevateem
planet before. But there are other questions about Who that I've
been pondering, such as "Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his
son/daughter?"  Stuff like that. Answers?

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 86 0900-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #119
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Brooks & Brust &
                     Ellison & Garrett & Heinlein &
                     Moorcock (2 msgs) & Powers & Wilson &
                     Wu,
             Films - This Island Earth,
             Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - A Question About the SCA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 13 May 1986 12:39:00-PDT
From: mackenzie%donjon.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Kaye MacKenzie DTN
From: 273-3092)
Subject: Asimov's "The Last Question"...

I've been reading SFL for a long time now, but have never
contributed.  When I read Brendan Boelke's answer to Derik Zahn's
query about Asimov's story, "The Last Question", I just had to
respond!  I haven't read it in years although it has always been a
favorite of mine - especially after I visited St. Louis years ago
(Oh, Lord - it was 1973!).

While there, I visited the St. Louis Planetarium which was doing a
show on Entropy - and guess what short story was being used as a
framework for the planetarium displays ?  This very same favorite
short story! The characters' voices could be heard while the dome
showed shadows of them and the 'puters.  In between each scene came
the explanations and planetarium showing of "The Big Bang", the
"constriction" of the universe, etc.  Thanks so much for reminding
me!!

One other thing I remember about this - no audio credit was given
Asimov!  Maybe he was credited elsewhere, in a printed program or on
some sign, but I never saw it!

Kaye MacKenzie

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF
Date: 12 May 86 13:35:36 GMT

From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>Little did I realize that all of my sensibilities were about to be
>attacked by a seemingly innocent 3-page story.  This tale ends in a
>pun which is so excruciatingly painful that I had to run around in
>circles for ten minutes yelling "oogie oogie oogie !!!"  just to
>keep myself from throwing up on my girlfriend's shoes.  (The pun
>was one of those which paraphrases a popular saying).

   Then the pun was only a three on the Bernard Shaw scale....

>Please, Mr. Asimov (as well as all other authors), do not insult
>you fans by writing such utterly unsatisfying stories (or, at
>least, if you do, make them funny).

   To quote the Good Doctor (if he's such a good doctor, why'd he
give it up to be a writer?)

   "...I happen to consider the pun the highest form of humor."

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 01:17:24 GMT
From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF

Oh, dear me, yes, I remember "Death of a Foy"... I'm afraid that
(due to having just had my appendix removed) I was incapable of
running around, but I suppose I could have (barely) whispered
"oogie..." (does it relly help?)  before acute brainmelt took place.
Fortunately, none of my SS (*) were visiting, so I had to make do
with eating my own head...

People-who-hate-puns, *avoid* that story!  I still weep with
strangulated fury when I read it...

PS: Even worse, I'd had to miss the *last ever* Led Zeppelin gig
because of my errant tripes... I was *not* in a good mood!

Kay.
... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay
(*) SS == Significant Several

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 00:45:16 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Terry Brooks fantasy names

andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>     Did you know that "Elessedil", the name of the Elf king in
>_Sword_, could easily be interpreted as a name in Tolkien's Elvish,
>with the meaning "Lover of Elvish Names"?!!?  Disgusting.

   Well, strictly speaking "Lover of Elvish Names" would be
"Elessendil", but that is certainly very close indeed. The name
could also be interpreted as "One who loves to be among the stars".
   But I have seen even worse! One fantasy I read, <Excalibur> by
Sanders Anne Laubenthal, used perfect elvish for the names of many
characters. What is worse the characters so named were all *angels*!
I mean names like "Morithil", and "Morandir". All in a book based on
the Arthurian legends!

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 86 05:35:19 GMT
From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Brust's Jhereg, Yendi, (and soon?) Tekla

> How long can he keep it up?  When is SKZB going to START writing
> this series?  I like where it ended up -- or is it finished?

TACKY...er, TECKLA is an immediate sequel to JAR-HEAD.  JHEREG, I
mean.  If I write another Vlad book (I'm currently expecting to), it
will be the first one, and probably called EASTERNER.  I have been
killing myself lately, trying to do stuff I'm probably not good
enough to do, and I badly need to sit down and write something full
of action and violence without a trace redeeming social value, just
to get it out of my system.  EASTERNER will, I hope, be a good place
to do this.  Thanks for being curious.

skzb

------------------------------

Date: Tue 13 May 86 14:52:37-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: my earlier request (Ellison quote)

>In a previous note, I made a request for a full quotation from a
>"Heinlein" book that I had seen once.  I have since then been
>informed that the quote was actually from Harlan Ellison.  Whoops.
>At any rate, I still haven't received email from anyone knowing the
>entire quote, so I'm still hoping.  The punchline of the quote was
>"And what the hell, they caught him".  Help?!?!?

Well, the quote is from "'Repent, Harlequin!', said the Ticktockman"
which is indeed by Ellison.  I'm not sure how much of the story is
the quote you want, but the surrounding context is:

"They used dogs.  They used probes.  They used cardio plate
crossoffs.  They used teepers.  They used bribery.  They used
stiktytes.  They used intimidation.  They used torment.  They used
torture.  They used finks.  They used cops.  They used
search&seizure.  They used fallaron.  Theys used betterment
incentive.  They used fingerprints.  They used Bertillon.  They used
cunning.  They used guile.  They used treachery.  They used Raoul
Mitgong, but he didn't help much.  They used applied physics.  They
used techinques of criminology.

  "And what the hell:  they caught him.

  "After all, his name was Everett C. Marm, and he wasn't much to
begin with , except a man who had no sense of time."

Hope that's what you wanted.

Evan Kirshenbaum
evan@csli.stanford.edu

[Moderator's Note: Thanks to all of the readers who sent in similar
information.  The list is much too long to include here for
acknowledgement]

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 18:14:36 GMT
From: gitpyr!roy@caip.rutgers.edu (Roy Mongiovi)
Subject: Randall Garrett

I just finished "The River Wall", which is the conclusion to the
Gandalara Cycle.  I enjoyed the whole series, but then I cut my SF
teeth on the Tarzan series and the Mars series by Burroughs.  My
major complaint about the Gandalara books is that they were
published as a lot of skinny (but expensive) books rather than as
fewer, thicker (but still expensive) books.  But then, this seems to
be a pretty common ploy nowadays.

Anyway, I noticed that the dedication was to Randall Garrett from
his wife, Vicki Ann Heydron.  And in the bio at the back of the book
it said that he and his wife had planned out the entire series and
completed the draft of the first volume when "Randall was seriously
and permanently injured."  And it went on to imply that Vicki now
lives alone.  I take it to mean that Randall Garrett is dead (?).

Does anyone know the story on this?  I'll be heartbroken if there
aren't going to be any more Lord Darcy stories....

Roy J. Mongiovi.
Office of Computing Services.
User Services.
Georgia Institute of Technology.
Atlanta GA  30332.
(404) 894-4660
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 86 18:38:04 PDT
From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech)
Subject: Heinlein's Timelines

>  wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu writes:
>> bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes:
>>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of
>>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is
>>inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial
>>people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the
>>kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.).
>
>     It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier
> short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the
> title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think).
> You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen.

    Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones",
and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". It's
possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are also in this
universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The Rolling Stones", but
it's been a long time since I read any of them).  From comments in
'Cat' it diverges from ours sometime after 1969, since Armstrong and
Aldrin are mentioned as performing the first lunar landing.

Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon)
Caltech Computer Science Graphics Group

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 19:16:42 GMT
From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain)
Subject: Re: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels

If you're an ERB fan, you undoubtly reconize the style of Moorcock's
entrance paragraphs being remarkably similar to the opening of the
Mars and Venus series. It was quite popular in the '20's and '30's
to preface something in this manner, it gave the illusion of the
story being "told" rather than created. I sorta like the style, it
lends that 'storytelling" feeling to the whole thing.

Happy Trails,
Glenn
thain@decwrl.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 08:45:00 GMT
From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels

    Your attention should be drawn to a series of children's books,
whose titles currently escape me, written by E. Nesbit around the
turn of the century.  Main male character: Oswald Bastable.  Hey,
guys, Moorcock's having you on!

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 86 15:04 PDT
From: Dave Dyer <ddyer@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Powers, Blaylock, & Wm Ashbless

From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu (Schurman)
>What I want to know is...
>But mostly -  What's the deal with this Ashbless guy ????

I have it directly from Powers that he and Blaylock invented
Ashbless.  Ashbless is some equivalent of a running joke between
them.  More than a good joke though!

------------------------------

From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: re: F. Paul Wilson
Date: 13 May 86 10:56:19 GMT

From:   jon@csvax.caltech.edu   (Jonathan P. Leech)
> Can anyone tell me what F. Paul Wilson has written? I have found
> only 2 books (_Healer_ and _An_Enemy_Of_The_State) and would like
> more if they exist.

Other books he's written are: (1) WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS [1978], (2)
THE TERY [half of BINARY STAR #2, 1979], (3) THE KEEP [1982], and
(4) THE TOMB [1984]. And he has a new book coming out this June, THE
TORCH.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 21:52:00 GMT
From: ism780!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Study in Persistence

The following is quoted from the Spring 1986 issue of The Bulletin
of the Science Fiction Writers of America (subscription info write
to The Bulletin..., Box H, Wharton, NJ 07885).

I find it depressing, though a friend of mine finds it encouraging.
Go figure.  The quote is by William F. Wu, whose short story "Hong's
Bluff" was nominated for a Nebula and is on the Hugo ballot.

   "Hong's Bluff" has had a long and varied history.  I sent the
   first draft of the story with my application to the Clarion
   Writer's Workshop, which I attended in 1974, as part of the
   required materials.  Later I revised that version with an opinion
   from Kate Wilhelm in mind into basically its present form.  Those
   two versions earned seventeen rejections in the years that
   followed.  At one point, I sold it for about two cents a word,
   half on acceptance, to a publisher who was going to bring out a
   privately financed anthology.  More time past [sic], and
   editorial chairs changed.  When this anthology did not work out,
   I bought the writes back and sold it to Omni, a few months shy of
   ten years after writing the first draft.  Now Ellen Datlow's
   regard for the story has been further supported by this [Nebula]
   nomination.  Naturally, after all this time, I find it all very
   gratifying.

And that's for a story good enough to be nominated for two major
awards, folks.  Yechhh.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM7870

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 20:49:42 GMT
From: mplvax!rec@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Currier)
Subject: THIS ISLAND EARTH

Has anyone seen a print of THIS ISLAND EARTH in the last ten
years???  This is my all time favorite sf film from the 50's but I
have not seen it on TV or in festivals for at least 10-20 years. I
hope and pray that this classic is not lost forever.

It seems strange that this film is mentioned in almost every sf film
book as being a superior effort but it has disappeared. I have been
reading TV Guide every Friday for at least the past ten years
looking specifically for it. My wife thinks I'm a crank and every
week she says " Well dork, is it on this week?". All I can do is
smile pitifully and mumble something about being too young to
understand.

At least I know that FORBIDDEN PLANET has been saved by the video
market.

richard currier
marine physical lab
u.c. san diego
{ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}
!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 18:24:00 GMT
From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Who again?

> "Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?"

No, Who is the Doctor.  Sorry about that -- couldn't resist.  Susan
is said to be the Doctor's granddaughter, which leaves open many
possibilities, but somehow I doubt that they are really related.  A
while ago, I heard of some theory that the Doctor's son is really
*the Master* -- I am curious to see how that came about.  Actually,
William Hartnell (the first Doctor) had wanted to start a spinoff
about (I believe) the Doctor's son, who would look exactly like the
Doctor, but be basically evil.  That would be interesting.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 86 08:27 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Doctor Who
Cc: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

That's what I thought!  Then a friend of mine pointed out the
beginning of "Robot" when the Doctor first incarnates to Tom Baker.
There's a moment when he jumps into the TARDIS (scarf trailing, as I
recall) and dematerializes for just a second.  But, of course, with
a time machine, there's no telling just how long he was gone!
That's when the events leading up to "Face of Evil" occured.
Remember that the Doctor said that he'd messed things up because he
was still disoriented from regenerating.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 86 13:33:20 EDT
From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA
Subject: Society for Creative Anchronism (SCA)

Why is it that SF fans don't get along with SCA types?

please reply by e-mail.  i don't subscribe to this list.

hofmann@amsaa.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 86 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #120
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 17 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:

                Books - Hodgell (2 msgs) & Lieber &
                        Moorcock (7 msgs) & 
                        A Request Anwered,
                Films - Rock Horror Picture Show,
                Television - Star Trek,
                Miscellaneous - Westercon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 12:45:40 GMT
From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: "Dark of The Moon" (Hodgell review reposted)

"Dark of the Moon", P.C. Hodgell, Argo Press (Atheneum), 1985,
ISBN 0-689-31171-0

*Dark Of The Moon* ("DOTM" from here on out), is a classical
second-work-in-a-series, with the classical second-work problems.
It's a sequel to Hodgell's *Godstalk*, one of the better fantasies
I've read recently.  Unfortunately, the most compelling character in
*Godstalk* (for me, anyway) was the city of Tai-Tastigon.  DOTM
opens with Jamethiel *outside* Tai-Tastigon, beginning her journey
to find her brother Torisen.  So the citizens and mores of
Tai-Tastigon play no part in DOTM; as a substitute, the reader finds
out more about Jame's own culture.  Candidly, I find Jame's culture
considerably less interesting -- it doesn't help that most of the
glimpses are of fairly-standard power struggles.

This book uses a fairly standard fantasy plot device, and one which
drives me up a wall: the split story.  DOTM tells two separate
stories which converge only at book's end, and it tells them a
chapter or so at a time.  So, just as you're getting caught up in
Jamethiel's journey west, the focus shifts to Torisen's problems
with the recalcitrant Kendar lords.  Just as Torisen becomes
compelling, it's back to Jamethiel.  This device is generally used
to heighten suspense, which it certainly does.  However, if one
story is more interesting than the other, the reader can wind up
skimming half the book in order to reach the subplot which interests
her.  This is my own personal vice; many readers probably won't be
as bothered.

Finally, DOTM has the standard second-book problem: an inconclusive
ending.  Readers of appendices will remember that the last book
ended with Torisen wondering where the hell his twin sister Jame had
gotten to, anyway.  DOTM ends THREE PAGES after Torisen and
Jamethiel have finally met.  They have time to raise several
fascinating issues, none of which are actually addressed.  After
going to great lengths to build up emotional tension (how will
Torisen react to a twin who's now several years younger and a
Darkling to boot?  How will Jame fit into a culture which keeps
women strictly in their place?)  Hodgell drops her readers off a
cliff.

Readers will have to wait till Book Three to find out how the Kendar
react to Jamethiel, and vice versa.  (Actually, we have a hint that
they don't react all that well; in a short story published in
"Different Worlds", Jamethiel is six years older, and again
traveling alone.)  Alas, Hodgell's "Author's Note" says that the
next Jamethiel novel will have to wait until Hodgell finishes her
dissertation.  Arrgh!

Yes, this is still a remarkably enjoyable book.  Hodgell writes well
and draws interesting characters.  I couldn't put DOTM down until
the last page.  For all its faults, the middle book in Hodgell's
series is still far more compelling than many authors' stand alone
novels.  If you were passionately fond of "Godstalk", you probably
won't be able to wait to buy DOTM in paperback; otherwise, you might
as well wait, especially since the book ends with a thumping "To Be
Continued".

(I may add, three months after I wrote this review, that the book
has weathered well; I've reread it several times with pleasure.  I
do wish that the book had a less frustrating ending, though.)

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 20:08:44 GMT
From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton)
Subject: Re: P. G. Hodgell

> Has anyone read the new book by P. G. Hodgell called (I think)
> *Dark is the Moon*?  I saw it in a bookstore, in hardcover, so I
> didn't get it.  It is a sequel to *Godstalk* (which I enjoyed,
> although I gather a fair number of net.people didn't).  Opinions?
> Facts? Reviews?

Read it last month.  Can scarcely remember anything except
disappointment.  (I did like _Godstalk_.)  The heroine leaves the
city and journeys across the murky wilderness in search of her murky
past, all the while suffering from a murky sense of guilt that
reminded me too much of Thomas Covenant's heavy load.  I do remember
that apparently _Dark Is the Moon_ is not a sequel but the middle
book of a trilogy (or a quadrilogue or a quintuplet), so don't
expect much in the way of a satisfying ending.  I give it a -1 on a
scale of -4 to +4.

Kimiye Tipton
Maitland, FL  USA
USENET: ihnp4!ides!kimi
CORNET:  754-6472  (305-660-6472)

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 1986 10:06:27 PDT
Subject: Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser Novella
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

As promised a few weeks ago, I went back and dug through several
anthologies to find the Lieber novella which follows Fafhrd and the
Gray Mouser beyond _Swords and Ice Magic_.  I wend back MUCH further
than 6 months!  It was in _Heroic Visions_, editor Jessica Amanda
Salmonson; copyright 1983.  From the credits, it appeared that this
novella had not appeared anywhere else.  "The Curse of the Smalls
and the Stars" follows our heroes through a somewhat tame adventure
on the Rime Isle, approximately a year after the completion of the
events in _Swords and Ice Magic_.

Doug (dolson @ Ada20)

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 1986  14:19 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Eternal Champion

   I believe it was reprinted recently...at least I found it amongst
the latest order at a bookstore near me.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 03:00:27 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (The Littlest Orc )
Subject: Re: Who really wrote the Oswald Bastable novels

Um, this may not be relevant quite, but wasn't Oswald Bastable the
narrator (and hero) of a series of English children's books, a many
year ago?  I seem to recall them as having been authored by E.
Nesbit, and printed as Penguin Paperbacks.  The only title I can
think of is _The Wouldbegoods_ (and I'm not even sure about that
one.....).  Anyway, those books, unlike some of the other Nesbits,
*weren't* fantasy or science fiction.....

Vicka d'Ull
Johns Hopkins Psychology

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 18:36:41 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands

Another BOC song that ties in with the movie Heavy Metal is
"Vengeance".  This song is not on the Heavy Metal soundtrack, and
was not in the movie, but it clearly describes the last episode in
the film.  It also is on Fire of Unknown Origin.

Brian Yamauchi
yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 18:27:36 GMT
From: sdcc7!ln63spf@caip.rutgers.edu (Very bored person)
Subject: Re: Moorcock and assoc'd. rock bands

'The Great Sunjester', also by Blue Oyster Cult, is also co-written
by Moorcock. It is taken mainly from a more obscure novel of his
called (If I remember correctly) 'The winds of Limbo'.

Steve Burnap

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 15:50:54 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion link ups

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>In recent years, Moorcock has been more indirect in his ties to the
>Eternal Champion books, but they're still there.  In Gloriana, for
>example, there is almost no reference at all to other
>books...except that Queen Gloriana's chief confidante is Una
>Persson, who appeared in the Cornelius books, in the Dancers at the
>End of Time, in the Bastable books, and in a few books of her own.
>Similarly, in his

Actually Queen Glorianna'a confidant was Una, Countess of Scaith I
didn't notice any other links between the two other than the name.
Una Presson has never shown any reluctance to use her full name
anywhere else.

On the other hand there are other links to the Eternal Champion
Cycle like one of Glorianna's counselors swearing by Xiombarg who is
the Queen of the Swords in the Corum books and who is slain by Elric
in Stormbringer.

In addition in one of the Jerry Cornelius books there is a mention
of a mysterious place descibed as a dream of Tanelorn where various
people gathered and on the guest list some fammilliar names
including (among many others) Q. Glorianna and C. Quire.

>latest trilogy (beginning with "Byzantium Endures"), one of the
>major figures is Catharine Cornelius, the British adventuress who
>is also Jerry Cornelius''s aunt.

I was under the impression that Catherine was Jerry and Frank's
SISTER.

 Jerry Cornelius

   Copulates
   Hallucinates
   Devastates
   Dies

   and comes Back From the Dead...
   Frequently.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 22:41:15 GMT
From: sysdes!drw@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Moorcock, Hawkwind ...

Just to try and clear up a few points ...

I'm not sure that a lot of the books claimed to perhaps be in the
Eternal Champion series really are, I just think Mr. Moorcock enjoys
putting nice little cross-references in!

There are a considerable number of (perhaps questionably)
unconnected books, including _The Ice Schooner_, _The Blood Red
Game_, _The Time Dweller_ (short stories), ...

Also Catharine Cornelius is Jerry's sister not his aunt.

As for the stories connected with rock groups ... well, there are
two Hawklords books, _Time of the Hawlords_ and _Queens of Deliria_,
both written by Michael Butterworth with ideas from MM. As already
stated, these are based on the group Hawkwind with different lords
being different members of the group. There was a third one planned
(_Ledge of Darkness_ ??)  but it was never published. (By the way,
anybody out there who can get me a copy of _Time of the Hawklords_
just let me know!!)

Hawkwind are still around and going as strong as ever. Including
compilation albums and live ones there are well in excess of thirty
albums. There last album (released Nov '85), The chronicle of the
blacksword, is surprise surprise based on MM's Elric books. At the
live shows they did in London during the supporting tour, Mike
Moorcock appeared frequently on stage reciting pieces of poetry and
so on (as well as co-singing the encore!).

The Deep Fix, which occur not only in the Hawlords books, but also
in the Jerry Cornelius books is Mike's own band. Although they don't
play that often, they released an album in '75 called The New
World's Fair, and have released a couple of singles (Dodgem
Dude/Starcruiser and The Brothel in Rosenstrasse).

I'm sorry I don't know what the American versions of the books are
called, the names seem to vary between UK and the US, so you'll have
to work out any differences. Also anybody interested in
Moorcock/Hawkwind plus related items just let me know. I can
probably give a better list of non-Eternal books if I go home and
look at them!

... and get into the Hawks ...

Dave Wilson
...ukc!sysdes!drw

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 03:56:45 GMT
From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: And Still More Funny/Humorous SF

I'm a bit surprised that nobody has mentioned Moorcock's End of Time
novels (at least in this discussion).  I was just looking through
them, and they are hysterical.  they are

   An Alien Heat
   The Hollow Lands
   The End of All Songs
   Legends from the End of Time
   Messiah at the End of Time
   Elric at the End of Time

The first three form basically form a 3 vol. novel.  The others
share characters, and situation, but are otherwise unrelated.

Have A Nice Day,
Soren Petersen

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 1986  14:06 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: bane@parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane)
Subject: Another "Do you know this story?" request

From: bane at parcvax.Xerox.COM (John R. Bane)
>While sending a message about funny F & SF, I mentioned the dueling
>scene in "The Princess Bride" (at the Cliffs of Insanity, where the
>Man In Black says, "See, I'm not left-handed either!") which had
>been excerpted for Spider Robinson's anthology "The Best Of All
>Possible Worlds", I remembered a story I had read recently,
>probably in Analog, probably 1975 or 1976. Anyway, what I
>remembered was that the story had been tongue-in-cheek, and that
>the duel scene was in there, copied almost exactly except starring
>the main character.  Anybody remember this at all?  I know it's not
>much to go on.

There's a scene of this type in "Cat's Have No Lord" where the hero,
Catseye Yellow, is dueling with someone rated as the best Swordsman
in the land.  Since Yellow is lefty, the other guy starts out lefty,
and begins losing. So he finally reveals that he's really not lefty,
and takes Catseye apart.  Finally, Catseye steps back, announces
that he's really not lefty either, and tosses his sword to his right
hand.  This surprises the other man enough that Yellow manages to
kick him in the groin, and then return the sword to his left hand
and hit him with it.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 16:19:03 GMT
From: unccvax!gbf@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory B Fidler)
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show query

From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Xerox.COM>
> I need to know the words to "Over at the Frankenstein Place" [I
> think that's the title] - the third song of the film, sung as Brad
> & Janet are trudging thru the rain.  It would be of most use if I
> knew which lines were sung by what character.  Can any of you RHPS
> fans out there help me?  Please reply directly to me, rather than
> to the net.

This was the only way our system wanted to let me reply, but anyway
I have the soundtrack for the "Rocky Horror Show" which is from the
stage version.  Included with this album was an insert which contain
the words for all the songs on the album.  All the songs that were
in the movie are on this album along with at least one that was not
in the movie.  There are some differences in the words of a few of
the songs, but most of them remained unchanged.  If you could give
me a mailing address, I will send a xerox copy of the insert to you.

Gregory B. Fidler
Mechanical Engineering
UNCC Charlotte NC 28223

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 03:55:12 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Star trek quote

>JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jim White) writes
>> 37. "He knows, Doctor. He knows."
>The quote you mention comes from the episode 'Tomorrow is
>Yesterday' when Edith Keeler is run down by a car. Kirk prevented
>Bones from saving her and Bones asks Kirk, 'Do you know what you've
>done'. Spock follows with the quote.

The quote was from the episode with Edith Keeler, but the title of
that episode was "The City on the Edge of Forever".  "Tomorrow is
Yesterday" was the episode in which the Enterprise went back in time
to the sixties.

Brian Yamauchi
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET : BY04@CMUCCVMA
DECNET : BY04@CMU-CC-TF

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 14:16:45 GMT
From: cad!jmm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Westercon

Does anyone have any information about Westercon (in San Diego, CA,
sometime during the summer)?  I used to have their address but no
longer.  Anything would be appreciated.

James

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 86 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #121
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 18 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 01:51:55 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien, inscription, Legolas (really Elvish-language
Subject: trivia)

ins_avrd@jhunix.UUCP (Victoria Rosly D'ull) writes:
>Actually, his name was Legolas, which does indeed mean "greenleaf"
>in Quenya (`Lego'="green" + `las, lasse'="leaf").

   But it *is* Sindarin, or a dialectic variant of it. Free standing
voiced consonants, like 'g', simply *do* *not* *exist* in Quenya, so
the name cannot be Quenya. Actually, in one of the new books being
published by Christopher Tolkien it is explained that the proper
Sindarin form of the name would be 'Laigolas'.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 02:22:39 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Of the races of Middle Earth and the sources of myth
Subject: [LONG]

christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA writes:
>Of Gandalf the Istar In LotR, Gandalf is explicitly identified as
>an Istari, one of five Wizards ...  The only other named Istari is
>Radagast the brown, an expert on plants and animals.

   A minor nit. "Istari" is a (Quenya) *plural*, the singular is
"Istar" (no '-i' suffix). The word means One of the Wise, hence
Wizard.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 02:34:42 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkein - Language question

olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen) writes:
>   "...There's a great fighter about, one of those
>   bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy _tarks_."
>
>I've speculated that "tark" is a corruption of "istari", and Snaga
>is therefore suggesting that the 'great fighter' may be a Wizard.
>Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?

        Nice guess, but wrong. Tolkien himself states that "tark" is
an Orcish corruption of the Quenya word "Tarcil", meaning "Scion of
Kings", or more literally "Spark of Highness", which was used in
Numenor for members of the royal house. Thus the word passed into
Common and thence into Orcish, where it simply means Numenorean(that
is Dunadan). "Snaga" the slave thought a Ranger was in the pass!


Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 02:53:09 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: So much for writing without a reference....

christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA writes:
>  I used Morgoth rather than Melkor because the elvish name is more
>familiar --to me, at least--, and I couldn't remember whether it
>was Melkor or Melkur.

        Another little nit. "Morgoth" and "Melkor"(or Melcor) are
*both* elvish. The former is Sindarin and means Dark Foe, the latter
is Quenya and means Mighty One Arising(it is related to the Sindarin
beleg = strong)..

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 02:29:01 GMT
From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: Inconsistency in the West-gate inscription: the answer

A week ago I pointed out that there was indeed an error in the
drawing of the inscription on the West-gate of Moria as it appears
in _The Lord of the Rings_, and asked for guesses as to what it is.
Here, now, is the answer.

Incidentally, there is what some might call an error in the lower
arch on the left-hand door.  The bow on the second letter of the
first word is not completely closed; one could almost read this as
`inn', but there is no such word.  That is not the error to which I
referred, though; no, this error is much greater and more obvious.

I gave a hint: The error is in the drawing itself.  The mistake was
no doubt a natural one; it probably occurred when Frodo was
straightening up his notes.  We can only guess, but I would say that
he had a only rough sketch of the doors, or his memory, to guide
him, and that when he drew the doors and wrote down their words, he
inadvertently altered one.

If you look at the sketch in _The Lord of The Rings_, you may note
that the words forming the upper arch on the left-hand door read
`Ennyn Durin Aran Moria' in Sindarin.  But the actual inscription
was `Ennyn Durin Aran Hadhodrond'!  As Caranfin said to me, the
halls of the Dwarves were not then called Moria.  The doors bore the
name that Celebrimbor used, and that was Hadhodrond.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1415)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 86 00:25:42 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: LOTR confusion

wall@gaynes.DEC (David F. Wall DTN 297-6882) writes:
>In any case, I believe one said "friend" in dwarvish, not elvish,
>although it's been a while since I read the books.

        As a matter of fact, the word "mellon" *is* elvish, Sindarin
in fact. It is cognate with the High Elvish "melda" which meant
'loved one, beloved, dear friend'.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 21:07:46 GMT
From: hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dan Green)
Subject: Gandalf and his Ring

congdon@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Congdon) writes:
>[...] The Istari were supposed to encourage the Children of
>Iluvatar to the good and not to despair; they were not supposed to
>awe Elves, Men and Dwarves into submission.  This was Gandalf's
>particular strength and was further intensified by the Ring of
>Fire.

I recently re-read the hobbit and the trilogy and something strange
occurred to me.  When he possessed the ring, one of the "powers"
Frodo got was the ability to see rings worn by other people.  This
is demonstrated when Frodo was in LothLorien, and could tell quite
easily that the Lady Galadrial had one of the 3 elf rings.  Now the
question I have is this: Gandalf told Frodo early, early on in the
first book to throw the great ring in the fire to see if the ring
would melt (it didn't, obviously).  This scene is one where Gandalf
and Frodo are together, Frodo has the ring, and both are
concentrating on the subject of rings.  *** Why didn't Frodo see the
Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger? ***
   Actually, now that I think about it, why didn't Frodo see the
ring when Gandalf was fighting the nasty balrog on the bridge of
Moria.  There clearly was an instance where G's ring should have
been shining in fury, but Frodo (though he stared at the battle)
didn't see anything.
   Granted, I haven't lost much sleep over this matter, but somehow
it seems to me that Tolkien shoved the ring onto Gandalf at a later
date and didn't bother to tell the readers (ie us) about it until
Gandalf was getting on the ship to cross the ocean.  If any of the
"experts" can shed some light on the topic...

Dan Green
Bitnet:  hsgj@cornella
UUCP:    {decvax,ihnp4,allegra,vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!hsgj
Arpa:    hsgj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 03:44:07 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gandalf (now Bombadil)

mike@rlvd.UUCP (Mike Woods) writes:
>sah@ukc.ukc.ac.uk (S.A.Hill) writes:
>>Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter were
>>probably Maia[r] as well. (See "A Tolkien Bestiary").
>
>I don't see how this can be. Gandalf was frightened even to touch
>the Ring because he knew he be ensnared by it. Tom Bombadil played
>with it, twirling round his finger, with no concern; and at the
>council of Elrond (I think) it is said that the ring could have no
>hold on him. That suggests to me that Tom was even greater than
>Sauron in all his malice!

In THE LORD OF THE RINGS, Book Two, chapter ii "The Council of
Elrond", J.R.R. Tolkien writes:

   ` . . . Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone?  I think
   not.  I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil
   will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'
      'I know little of Iarwain save the name,' said Galdor; `but
   Glorfindel, I think, is right.  Power to defy our Enemy is not in
   him . . .'

In other words: Tom's tough, but not that tough.  I haven't seen
anything JRRT wrote that definitively stated what Tom Bombadil
(Iarwain Ben-adar) was, but it seems to make sense that he was a
Maia.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 00:10:25 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic"

barb@oliveb.UUCP (Barb Jernigan) writes:
> Au contraire!  I know of at least one instance, in _The Hobbit_
> where it was most certainly literal: Beorn.  It's never exactly
> clear whether he can choose his form or is a werebear (oh, gods,
> that sounds terrible, aick!), but he certainly could shape-change.

This has always puzzled me.  How can Beorn change shape?  The
Beornings are supposed to have the same origins as the Rohirrim.  I
will have to look it up in the Silmarillion but I believe a man of
one of the Three Houses of the Edain left Beleriand after someone
had impersonated him, and from him came the men of Dale, the
Beornings and the Rohirrim.  None of these men have the power to
change shape at all -- they are pure men, never granted special
powers by the Valar that I know of.  How is it that they can change
shape?  Unless it is just Bilbo's overactive imagination which makes
him think that Beorn (a big hairy guy) is actually changing into
bear-form, I don't see how the Beornings, being mortal, can change
shape.

gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 19:27:44 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Moria gate (again)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>The dwarves had the mithril, but the elves knew how to use it.  So
>they hired the making of the West-gate out to an elf of Hollin
>(when the West-gate looked out upon the fruitful land of Hollin,
>home of High-Elves).  The full inscription contains the author's
>signature (the elf, not Tolkien), but I don't remember it and can't
>look it up.

   Well, not exactly *hired*, the author was Celebrimbor himself,
the very one who made the Rings of Power. I think of the West-gate
as a cooperative effort between the Elves and the Dwarves.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 19:30:56 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: (Tolkien) Inscription on door

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA writes:
> The one aspect that hasn't been mentioned is the merely practical
>-- why wouldn't Gandalf have simply spoken the inscripted words
>aloud, either while reading them initially or while explaining the
>situation to the others in the party, and, by so doing, said the
>word "mellon" (I believe that was it?) and so triggered the door's
>opening? It wouldn't matter which of the punctuation-dependent
>meanings of the phrase he believed; just saying the phrase itself
>would mean that he spoke the word for 'friend' and the door would
>have opened.
>
>Or am I missing something, due to it being so long since I read
>LOTR?

   Well, I always assumed that the word had to be spoken in
isolation rather than as part of connected speech. Anyone familiar
with computer recognition of words will tell you that there is
considerable difference between the two phonologically.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 19:05:43 GMT
From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu (          LAK)
Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic"

From: S7YLF4%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most other
>fantasy magic.  For instance (as someone mentioned) the
>shape-changing is hardly literal; it was more of an atmosphere
>created (for example, when Gandalf wanted to impress on Bilbo the
>importance of giving up the Ring in the one tense scene at the
>beginning of _Fellowship_).  The only specific magic I can think of
>are Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers.  The
>other magic is much more ephemeral, consisting mostly of
>animatistic forces.  In fact, some of the "magic" in Tolkien can be
>likened to things we believe in, such as "charisma", "selling
>power", etc.

There are several other examples of magic in Tolkien's works. In
LotR, there is Galadriel's magic mirror, and crystal. Also, the
Palantirs, the Ring, and the Elvish swords which glow in the
presence of Orcs. In The Silmarillion, Melian's defense of her
forest, the Silmarils, and the Songs of Power. Most of these are not
too ephemeral.

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 21:03:56 GMT
From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Gandalf

> Tom Bombadil played with [The Ring], twirling round his finger,
> with no concern; and at the council of Elrond (I think) it is said
> that the ring could have no hold on him. That suggests to me that
> Tom was even greater than Sauron in all his malice!

Not _necessarily_ greater, perhaps only immune.  See previous
postings on enigma.  One might say that Bombadil is from another
mythology altogether, so doesn't have to play by the "rules".
>grin!<

Barb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 86 15:10:42 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: words on a door

   Various answers have appeared to the question of why somebody
didn't just read aloud the inscription on the door to Moria, thereby
opening it.
   Tolkien was not as much a technician of magic as some other
fantasy authors (consider Garrett's TOO MANY MAGICIANS, for
instance) although his work suggests that he understood that pulling
magic out of a hat as a solution is just as destructive to a decent
story as pulling a gadget out of a little black bag (or inventing
one on the spur of the moment). But I would guess that he felt
(maybe without formalizing it), as many authors do, that magic is a
matter of \\intent//---mental orientation, if you will---not just
mechanics (cf Garrett's "Black magic is a matter of symoblism and
intent", and Theron Ware's statements (in Blish's BLACK EASTER) to
the effect that many rituals were as much to condition the operator
as to invoke a demon and that the explicit obedience of the operator
was an active part of the spell). Thus simply reading the
inscription aloud wouldn't have helped since such reading would not
have been directed to/intended for the door.
   You can make an even stronger case for requiring some sort of
intent in this case, since the door wouldn't be much use if it fell
open every time somebody happened to say "friend" within earshot
(and just what is earshot for a door anyway? Some door spells
specifically require you to whisper into the keyhole.  There's also
the saying "Deaf as a post", although I don't think the Gates of
Moria were post-and-lintel construction....)

CHip (Chip Hitchcock)
ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
uu: ...!{decvax, cbosgd, seismo!harvard, linus}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 00:44:00 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Orcs

Speaking of orcs having been created from elves...

I guess the changes Morgoth must have made were radical in the
extreme as elves reproduce the way humans do, but, as we learn in
_The_Hobbit_, orcs spawn...

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-lcc}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 May 86 0821-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #122
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Asimov (2 msgs) &
                    Butterworth & Heinlein & McKiernan &
                    Moorcock & L. Neil Smith & Societ SF,
            Films - This Island Earth (3 msgs),
            Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Etymology & SF Tie-ins

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 02:52:02 GMT
From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ("Cutter John" Griffith)
Subject: Re: Adepts in the Apprentice Adept series

I am a big fan of the Apprentice Adept series, and think it is one
of the best sf/fantasy trilogies ever published.  Opposing views can
be sent to /dev/null, where they will be treated with appropriate
respect.

Back to the subject at hand, here is the list from one who has read
the entire series at least thirty times.

Black  - Magic Powers were in creating thing from lines.
Yellow - Created magic Potions.
Brown  - Created Golems.
Orange - Magic manifested in the form of Plants.
White  - Invoked magic through runes and glyphs
Red    - Created magic Amulets
Tan    - Evil Eye
Green  - Invoked magic through hand gestures
Translucent - Never clearly stated.  Possibly water-related
Blue   - Magic summoned through verse. The more musical, the
         more powerful.

> Another question, did Stiles (Blue) need to play music before he
> voices his musical incantation? Also, what other types of magic
> were there?

I do not believe he HAD to sing.  It merely had to rhyme.  As I
remember, when Stile was in the White Demesnes, Anthony said
"'Monsters of ice,' he breathed, 'turn to mice!'", which turned them
into rats.  Considering that this was a spell directly opposing the
will of another Adept in the other Adept's own Demesnes with no
magic summoned by music, this shows the extent of Stile's power.

Another point for observation is the fact that certain Adepts had
spheres of specialty, and magic used in conjunction with or directed
toward that sphere tended to give the spell more power.  White's was
ice (ice was never a mandatory element of her spells), Blue's was
music, Translucent's was possibly water, and Yellow's seemed to be
animals.

>Anthony has said that he is interested in writing sequels to the
>series.  It seems obvious to me that what it will concern is
>Stile/The Blue Adept's adventures on the other side of the OTHER
>curtain (recall Stile's and Lady Blue's honeymoon to the West
>Pole).  What will he find there?

Another rumor is that it will focus, at least partially, on the rise
to power of Trool, the troll Adept.  You can also figure that most,
if not all of the Adepts will now turn their wrath on Stile for
basically destroying their power.  How will halving an Adept's power
affect Brown, for instance? There is also Stile's son to keep in
mind, as well as Sheen.  Will he keep Proton in his stories?

Jim Griffith
griffith@pavepaws.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 19:16:33 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Re: Blue adept question-- A few forgoten talents

The Green Adept's powers were summoned by waving his hands.  Don't
forget the Tan Adept. He had the power of the evil eye (shoot laser
blasts). I believe White's power was over cold and she could make
Ice things.

Stile did not have to play his Harmonica first, but music increased
his power and gave him a magical aura.

BITNET: 6090617@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 20:11:41 GMT
From: cad!griffith@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Adepts

Oh, I forgot.  The Yellow Adept also mentions the existence of the
Purple and Gray Adepts while talking to Stile at the Unolympics, but
she doesn't do more than acknowledge that they exist.

Jim Griffith
griffith@pavepaws

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 86 15:28:07 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF

Eric writes that he did not enjoy Asimov's DEATH OF A FOY.  I thank
him for bringing it up.  The mere mention of that story always
brings a smile to my face.  The punnish short-short is a recognized
sub-genre of sf and, to my mind, FOY is the greatest example of that
type of story.  As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yours for more puns,
Robert J. Sawyer in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 86 17:42:24 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: asimov and daughters

Attempting to determine an author's personal preferences from
characters in his/her books is dangerous even with such opinionated
authors as Heinlein; in Asimov's case I wouldn't read anything
particular into Fastolfe's preference for daughters over sons.

\\However//, Asimov's autobiography makes very obvious his
preference for his daughter over his son---the son is (for instance)
dismissed as being not up to college (despite Asimov's grudging
acknowledgement of the son's intelligence) while the way he dotes on
his daughter shows where the few genuine JAPs come from. It's a
wonder she turned out to be (by outside accounts) a relatively
decent human being, the way he slobbered over her....

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 04:00:43 GMT
From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Moorcock (TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS)

boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>Actually, Moorcock did *not* write TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, though he
>is erroneously co-credited. His "co-author", Michael Butterworth
>wrote the book alone, based on an idea by Moorcock. The publishers
>(both British and American) obviously felt that Moorcock's name on
>the by-line would help sell more books. The sequel was properly
>credited to Butterworth alone. There was supposed to be a third
>novel, LEDGE OF DARKNESS, but I'm not sure if it was ever
>published.

Okay, I'll bite.

I had never heard of any sequel.  What's the title?  Was it ever
released in this country? in paperback?

Has Butterworth ever written anything else, by the way?  Except for
TotH, I'd never seen or heard of him.

Have A Nice Day,
Soren Petersen

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 23:19:32 GMT
From: bakerst!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob White)
Subject: Re: RAH Future History: The po' boy's collection

ph@wucec2.UUCP writes:
> bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes:
>>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of
>>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is
>>inconsistent with the other stories (living artifacts, artificial
>>people, the particular sequence of planets being colonized, the
>>kind of spacecraft/power supply being used, etc.).
>
>    It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier
>short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the
>title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think).
>You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen.

The short story is "GULF".


>>And even possibly (I haven't read it yet):
>>
>>      The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

It is - it uses characters from "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", "The
Rolling Stones", "The Number Of The Beast", not to mention parts of
their plots.  I've probably missed a few stories, also...

Bob White
Mail: 5123 Ramillie Run           Usenet:  ihnp4!kitty!bakerst!bob
      Winston-Salem, NC  27106     Phone: (919) 924-0975

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 86 00:08:26 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: "The Iron Tower" trilogy

I haven't commented on these books in this forum, but, since some
discussion has arisen about them, I felt I had to add my piece.
(Particularly ocnsidering the presence of the author on the net, and
the good principle that one shouldn't say something behind someone's
back that one is unwilling to say to their face.)

I bought all three books before reading a word of any of them,
having heard of their existence on the net and being impressed with
their cover art.  Moreover, I hadn't heard anything bad about them,
so I figured they'd be OK.  I took the first of them on a long plane
trip as my only reading material.  After about twenty pages, I gave
up on it and searched the airline magazine for half-interesting
articles.  An hour or two later, having exhausted the magazine and
the leaflet describing the plane's safety features, I tried "The
Dark Tide" again, but could only last another ten pages.  It was a
long plane trip, but no reading material at all struck me as better
than "The Dark Tide".

My reaction to the first thirty pages of this book, all of it I am
able to comment on, is that it is shamelessly derivative and badly
written.  The best comparison I can come up with is "Bored of the
Rings", but not done for laughs.  I am sure that Mr. McKiernan
worked long and hard on the book, but the results are dreadful, in
my opinion.  Only the most devoted fantasy addict would find
anything of value in it, if the remainder of the trilogy is much
like the beginning.  Considering that a glut of fantasy exists, much
of it at least mediocre, wasting one's time on "The Iron Tower" is
hard to justify.  The next time I get to a second hand paperback
store, I intend to turn in these books for whatever I can get.

I wrote a detailed critique of what I dislike about what I read of
"The Dark Tide", but, on rereading it, posting it seemed
unnecessary.  Let me merely state that this book is one of the few I
have read that engendered in me a desire to throw it across the
room, a desire I satisfied as soon as I got home from my plane trip.
Flinging it against a wall gave me the most pleasure I got from "The
Dark Tide".

Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 02:17:03 GMT
From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion link ups

Actually, I first realized that Moorcock tied all of his works
together when I read Glorianna, and the tip off was a minor
character in the book with yet another Jerry Cornelius sound alike
name. He also had a cat; I don't know if that's relevant, but for
some reason I remember that.

jacob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 86 17:37:48 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: L. Neil Smith's universe

Contrary to a statement in SFL 11.117, HER MAJESTY'S BUCKETEERS (?)
is in fact part of LNS's Libertarian alternate universe. In his
mercantile novel (KOBAYASHI MARU?!?), which takes place a generation
or so after PROBABILITY BROACH and VENUS BELT (and in which the
offspring of Win and Clarissa Bear are featured) the good-guy
Libertarians rescue a few of the tripeds from their outraged
fellows.

NB: I was told by Darrel Schweitzer that (putting it mildly) LNS's
primary interest is guns; he appears to have to come to
libertarianism through being an absolutely whacko gun-lover. It
shows in passages in several of his books.  Note also that Jane
Fonda isn't his only target (given his politics, that's hardly
surprising) although the anagram was a rather crude expression
compared with Voltaire Malaise in BELT (no bells? hint: a German
word for ill-health is "cronkeit" (sp?)).

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 19:32:43 GMT
From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (William Swan)
Subject: Soviet Science Fiction

Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM writes:
>Back in the 1980 time frame I bought a collection of short stories
>under the header of Soviet SF.  The stories in this edition were by
>Kiril Bulshyev (probably misspelled that), and the back cover
>promised more collections by different Russian authors.  I haven't
>seen any others, and haven't written to the publisher yet, but has
>anybody spotted these books?  Where can I find them?

There were several books published, from sometime in the early 70's
through the late 70's, as I recall. I bought several (all I could
find). Bulychev's was among them. I haven't seen any of the books on
the shelves for a while, so I have to assume they aren't around any
more (sigh).

Speaking of Russian authors, has anybody heard of anything from the
Strugatski brothers (Arkady and Boris?) lately? I really enjoyed
_Hard_to_be_a_God_, as well as many other works of theirs, but again
haven't seen anything on the shelves in a long while..

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 20:04:23 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH

Didn't they show clips from _This Island Earth_ in one of the
Spielberg movies (Explorers, or something like that)?  Implications
are that it exists, even though it might not be available.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 15:52:27 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH

I have seen this movie within the past 5 years, at least several
times.  It does exist.  It was on our local tv station Channel 9,
WOR.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 19:57:22 GMT
From: vaxwaller!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Barry Nesmith)
Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH

I've got This Island Earth on tape. It plays on a local San
Francisco channel at least every 3 or 4 months. I'm sure I've also
seen it in the local Thrifty's and several supermarkets. It's been
with the other tapes of movies that are in the public domain I
believe. It goes for about 10 or 11 bucks. You might try Publishers
Clearing House or one of those other book mail order places. They
usually carry some videotapes and have a number of the public domain
movies. Also, you might try some record or book stores in your area.
Though somewhat dated, TIE is a classic 50's SF film. It was The Man
From Glad's first starring role :-)

Barry Nesmith

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 86 10:05:28 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!hotchkis@caip.rutgers.edu (Graham Hotchkiss)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
>The point is that the Face could not have been the Fourth Doctor's
>since he hadn't yet been to Leela's planet in that incarnation.

Simple , He goes there in the future! Notice that we may think that
all of a particular doctors adventures are limited to those screened
but this cannot be so as in " Three Doctors" and the latter one
involving 5 or 6 and their respective partners, they are seen to be
doing other activities.Therefore it seems that when a doctor
regenerates it is perhaps the splitting of parralel future
possibilities.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 86 08:00 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Who again?
Cc: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

>>Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?"  Stuff like
>>that.

Answers?

I've always assumed that the Doctor was single and that his first
companion, his "granddaughter" was actually another, probably
unrelated, younger Time Lord, who posed as his granddaughter to
explain their relative ages to the Earth people they were living
with.

In fact, have we seen anything to indicate that Gallifreyans have an
institution such as marriage?  The only indication at all that I can
think of is Andred and Leela, and, Leela being alien, I'm not sure
that that tells us anything about Time Lords.

And, who knows how Time Lords reproduce?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 15 May 86 13:40:42-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #114

I don't know where Jack Vance found the word "erb" either.  Probably
he made it up.  My favorite etymology, though, is Edgar Rice
Burroughs' initials.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 May 86 07:51:56-MDT
From: Sue Tabron <TABRON@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF Tie-ins

Cargo Master Dane Thorsen is from several old Andre Norton novels -
can't remember titles, they're all at home.  He started as an
apprentice, though, and worked his way up thru various novels.

Sue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 May 86 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:

               Books - Aldiss & Cherryh & Heinlein &
                       Moorcock (2 msgs) & Spider Robinson & 
                       Zelazny & Footfall & Soviet Sf,
               Films - James Bond,
               Television - Quote Source & Doctor Who,
               Miscellaneous - Etymology of Words (2 msgs) &
                       Great Literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 04:36:57 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.Ac.Uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Helliconia Summer

Yes, there definitely will be a sequel to Helliconia Summer. It will
be called Helliconia Winter, and should conclude the Helliconia
trilogy. I have only read "Spring", but talked to Brian Aldiss at
its launch about the series.

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 11:54:11 GMT
From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: re: Cherryh portrait

From:   ingres.Berkeley.EDU!kalash      (Joe Kalash)
> cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa writes:
>>   David Cherry (the 'h' on CJ's name is an attachment) is
>>beginning to become a success as a commercial SF artist. He got
>>breaks from Fantasia Press (in addition to the above, they did a
>>special edition of her two ]elf[ books, ? and THE TREE OF SWORDS
>>AND JEWELS, with illos by him) and is now getting
>
> First it is Phantasia Press, second they have put out (by Cherryh):
> [...]
> The last two have David Cherry covers. Neither The Tree of Swords
> and Jewels, nor Dreamstone have been done by Phantasia.

No, but a part of THE DREAMSTONE *was* published in a small press
edition in 1981 by Don Grant, under the title EALDWOOD, and it was
illustrated by David Cherry. I believe that this was Cherry's first
professional art assignment (at least in the sf field).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   [Find your own path to...]
        !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note new UUCP address****

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 86 21:48:37 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Heinlein

As near as I can follow, Heinlein's works can be divided into three
major catagories. 1- Future History 2-Utopia novels 3-None of the
above.  The works in the F.H have already been listed, but here they
are again: The Man Who Sold The Moon; The Cool Green Hills of Earth;
Revolt in 2100; M.C.; TEFL. The story "Menace From Earth" from the
collection MFE also fits in. Friday might fit because of references
to Luna Free State.  If that's true then "Gulf", the story featuring
"Keatle Belly" Bailey is also in there. The two stories that were
meant to be included but were never written are: Stone Pillow and
Fire Down Bellow. FDB relates the rise of Nedemiah Scudder while SP
talks about the begginning of the resistance movement. The best
summary of the FH is "Future History", a filk by "Filthy Pierre"
printed in the Nesfa Hymnal.  The books in the utopia section are
relatively few. They include Starship Troopers, Beyond This Horizon,
All the Juveniles (defined as Utopias because the Good are always
rewarded, the bad are always caught, and everything is 'nifty' in
the end.) Possibly MIAHM (model of a perfect revolution, but this is
stretching it.)  In the last category we have: Puppet Masters (the
Ultimate Classic), Menace From Earth, The UPOJH, and JACODJ.
Unfortunately, I have not read:IWFNE so I can't place it.  Last,
there is the mysterious shadow region of NOTB and TCWWTW. These two
books tie together EVERYTHING Heinlein or any one else has ever
written. The Burroughs and their time space Do-hickey (whose name
escapes me for the moment) base themselves on Tertius and use Hazel
Stone as an agent. They can go any where/any when. (Dr Who, eat your
hearts out.)  Looking back, I see I forgot to place SIASL (the worst
Heinlein ever) and Glory Road (one of the best). Both go in category
3.  By the way, does Heinlein ever go to conventions? Which ones?

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 12:00:52 GMT
From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Moorcock & Blue Oyster Cult

From:   uvm-gen!haviland        (Tom Haviland)
>In the same vein, a couple of Blue Oyster Cult songs,
>_Veteran_of_the_Psychic_Wars_ and _Black_Blade_ were cowritten by
>Moorcock.  _Black_Blade_ seems to be about Elric, with lots of
>references to the sword controlling him and the like.  I don't know
>if _Veteran_ is about any specific story, but it appears the the
>soundtrack to _Heavy_Metal_.  Both songs can also be found on (I
>think) BOC's album _Cultosaurus_Erectus_.  Good tunes, too.

No, "Veteran..." isn't based on any Moorcock story, and it is on
FIRE OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN. You're right about "Black Blade".  They can
both (I think both, definitely "B.B.") also be found on
EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL LIVE.

Incidentally, on the most recent BOC album, CLUB NINJA, is a song
titled "The Shadow Warrior", co-written by Eric Van Lustbader.
Presumably, it's based on EVL's "Sunset Warrior" series.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   [Find your own path to...]
        !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note new UUCP address****

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 20:58:05 GMT
From: spp2!urban@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion link ups, also Tolkien

In case anyone cares, "Corum e Jhalen Irsei" is an anagram of
"Jeremiah Cornelius".  This version of Corum's full name did not
appear in the first edition of the Swords trilogy, I'm told.  Of
course, "Jerusalem rhino ice" is also an anagram for Jeremiah
Cornelius, so it may all be an accident :-)

Of course, one could also argue that Tolkien's "Turin Turambar" is
another incarnation of the Eternal Champion; he's got this black
sword, has an incestuous relationship with his sister, and
eventually commits suicide.  I wonder if maybe Moorcock, who
dislikes JRRT's work in general, might find he likes this particular
tale?  More seriously, I wonder if Moorcock was in any way
influenced by the Finnish tale of Kullervo, from which Tolkien
derived some aspects of Turin's story (by way of the Volsung Saga).

Mike Urban
...!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 13:52:12 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS query

I see from "Books in Print" that there are two "elephants" books by
Spider Robinson, "Melancholy Elephants" and (I think) "Melancholy
Elephants and Others."  Can anybody tell me (via e-mail, preferably)
whether these are two distinct books or whether the second is just
the first with some stuff added?

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 23:16:26 GMT
From: ur-tut!aptr@caip.rutgers.edu (The Wumpus)
Subject: Similarities between stories

I have just started reading Roger Zelazny's book _Dilvish_the_
Damned_ and couldn't help noticing that the stories about how
Jelerak started out in white magic, but then slipped into black
magic and became one of the strongest wizards resembles the stories
of how Darth Vader from SW fame started out.

Any comments?

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 1986 10:59:38-EDT
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Footfall

Okay, who's read _Footfall_?  I just finished my copy, and here's a
brief, non-spoiler opinion:

Like _Lucifer's Hammer_, I had a hard time putting the book down.
It flowed well, and Niven and Pournelle made it fairly easy for me
to identify with the characters.  The ending seemed rather abrupt,
though.  After 574 pages, I wanted things to be resolved a little
more cleanly.

Next?

Brian Clapper

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 12:23:26 GMT
From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Soviet sf

From:   Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM
> Back in the 1980 time frame I bought a collection of short stories
> under the header of Soviet SF.  The stories in this edition were
> by Kiril Bulshyev (probably misspelled that),...

It's Kirill Bulychev, which is a pseudonym of Igor Mojeiko.

> ...and the back cover promised more collections by different
> Russian authors.  I haven't seen any others, and haven't written
> to the publisher yet, but has anybody spotted these books?  Where
> can I find them?

Macmillan did a number of books at around that time under the banner
"The Best of Soviet Science Fiction". I'm pretty sure the Bulychev
collection you're referring to was part of that series. I don't
think that most (if any) of the series is still in print.
Unfortunately, I don't really have the time to dig up a list of
titles. Maybe later.  You might be better off writing to the
publisher, though, to find out what's still in print. Another
suggestion is to check with a major public library in your area;
it's bound to have at least some of the books.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   [Find your own path to...]
        !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note new UUCP address****

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 17 May 1986 01:50:32-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Bond chronology

From: Robert Hunter <hunter%vax2.acs.udel.edu@Louie.UDEL.EDU>
> I'm looking for a title listing of all the Bond films beginning
> with "Dr. No" and ending with "A View To a Kill" along with the
> year they were released. Can anyone oblige?

Most of the Bond films are only marginally, if at all, sf, but what
the hell...

DR. NO [1962]                           Sean Connery
FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE [1963]              "    " "
GOLDFINGER [1964]                         "    " "
THUNDERBALL [1965]                        "    " "
CASINO ROYALE [1967] *                  David Niven
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE [1967]              Sean Connery
ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE [1969]  George Lazenby
DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER [1971]             Sean Connery
LIVE AND LET DIE [1973]                 Roger Moore
THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN [1974]        "    " "
THE SPY WHO LOVED ME [1977]               "    " "
MOONRAKER [1979]                          "    " "
FOR YOUR EYES ONLY [1981]                 "    " "
OCTOPUSSY [1983]                          "    " "
NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN [1983] *          Sean Connery
A VIEW TO A KILL [1985]                 Roger Moore
        Next:
THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS [1987]             Findlay Light

        * Not from the same studio as the others.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   [Find your own path to...]
        !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note new UUCP address****

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 19:54:00 GMT
From: wsmith@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: KBN

Klaatu Barada Nikto

What famouse TV show did this phrase come from (although not
originally)?

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 20:18:25 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Who again?

Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's brother.
How else to explain two extremely capable (but not always competent)
super-scientists who continually try to do one another in, but
always fail.

They might have done something with this, but the actor who played
the master died.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 86 19:02:13 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: RE: the absolutely positively hopefuly real origin of
Subject: filksong

From: CC004039%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>When I first heard the word, I though it was "FILCHsong", not
>"FILKsong".  The obvious origin being that though the lyrics of
>such songs are original, the tunes are almost always FILCHED from
>popular pieces of music!

Actualy, many filks have original words and *music*. (i.e.
Horsetammers Daugther (Somebody plaese tell me who wrote that one).
The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC. The
words "Folk Songs" were misprinted on the program as "Filk Sings".
The rest is, of course, history.....

Harold Feld
6103014 at PUCC

p.s. Any filkers out there?

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 21:06:48 GMT
From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: orichalks, mentioning "grue" and "deodand"

From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
>... Vance's forests are populated by erbs, grues, deodands and
>leucomorphs, and his swamps contain rat's-lettuce and throttlehemp.
>A grue is no doubt gruesome white shape sounds scary enough; and
>deodand turns out to be an archaic word, referring to a thing used
>in a murder, and presented to the Church.

   The grue is a sinister, lurking presence in the dark places of
   the earth.  His favorite diet is adventurers, but its insatiable
   appetite is tempered by its fear of light.  No grue has ever been
   seen by the light of day, and few have survived its fearsome jaws
   to tell the tale.
                         "Zork", a computer adventure game.

However, the use of "grue" with which I am familiar is as an
archaism for "crane" (the bird, not the artifact).  There is a
French phrase (hovering at the back of my mind) "pied de grue",
which implies that "grue" might well have a cognate in French...
unfortunately, the Larousse isn't here...  I might well be wrong.

Deodand?  easy one: not *quite* just a thing used in a murder,
rather (according to English law) a personal chattel, which, having
being the immediate cause of death of a person (as likely a rickety
stepladder as a breadknife!), was made forfeit to the Crown to be
used for pious purposes.  I believe the law dropped into nullity and
was repealed in the mid 1840s.

The etymology of leucomorph is obvious, but I'm puzzled about
erbs... I can't think of anything at the moment.  Help, anyone?

I assume rat's-lettuce is a slightly more toothy variant of
lamb's-lettuce?  and throttlehemp is probably the stuff growing in
our garden that I always feel uneasy about getting close enough to
to prune...

Kay.
... mcvax!ukc!warwick!kay

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 86 01:25:58 PDT
From: pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
Subject: "Great" literature

uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
>I'm proud to declare that reading SF is entertainment for me, and I
>don't want or need Joyce (or even readable stuff like Kafka or
>Montaigne) during *my* leisure time.  However, those people who
>malign other "good read" authors seem strangely silent when the
>topic of Brust comes up.  Is it merely because he might be
>listening?  God forbid Mr. Brust find out somebody actually reads
>his books for entertainment, and doesn't find deep meaning in 'em!

     Actually, I think Steven Brust had already made it pretty clear
that he isn't writing with the intent of becoming one of those musty
authors who only get read when English instructors force them on
captive students.  Except for critics and teachers, nobody reads
professionally; reading is either a leisure activity or an
educational one.  The point you make about not wanting or needing
Joyce, Kafka, Montaigne, or such like, during your leisure time is
exactly what's wrong with so-called "great literature."  The stuff
is so stodgy and incomprehensible that it cannot survive outside the
sterile atmosphere of the classroom.
     Malign "good read" authors all you want.  The fact is, however,
that writing is meant to be read, otherwise it is just
self-indulgent prattle.  If people won't read what an author creates
because the material is appealing, the author is producing word
collections, not literature.  Deep meaning is lost if the book sits
on a shelf.
     None of this, by the way, even touches on the implied notion,
which I dispute, that science fiction and fantasy works lack hidden
meanings.  I hope nobody will suggest that elements like syllogism
and allegory cannot exist in a work until some ivy-covered
academician rules it so.

Bruce N. Wheelock
{ihnp4,cbosgd,sdcsvax,noscvax}!crash!vista!pnet01!bnw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 May 86 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #124
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:

      Books - Aldiss & Asimov & Garrett & Gilliland (2 msgs) &
              Heinlein & Moorcock & Footfall (2 msgs),
      Films - This Island Earth (2 msgs) & James Bond,
      Television - Doctor Who,
      Miscellaneous -  Publishers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 12:41:16 GMT
From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: Re: Helliconia Summer

ellis@sage.UUCP (Sean Ellis) writes:
>Yes, there definitely will be a sequel to Helliconia Summer. It
>will be called Helliconia Winter, and should conclude the
>Helliconia trilogy. I have only read "Spring", but talked to Brian
>Aldiss at its launch about the series.

        "Helliconia Winter" is available in hardback in the UK - I
got it out of my local library a few months ago. The paperback can't
be far away. It's a good finish to the trilogy.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.co.uk>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 86 05:10:58 GMT
From: ritcv!iav1917@caip.rutgers.edu (alan i. vymetalik)
Subject: (Re: Another Foundation novel) and Asimov's "Future History"

Ok, all you Foundation fans out there among the flow of electrons....

From the, ahem, horse's mouth...After "Foundation and Earth", Asimov
has titled, outlined, and planned ANOTHER FOUNDATION novel entitled,
at this time, PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION.  (I was wondering when he was
going to do that!).

In a similar vein of thought ...

Waldenbooks' Otherworlds Club produces a bi-monthly newsletter
called "Xignals" and in it is a column on Asimov's linking of his
numerous "Robot", "Galactic Empire", and "Foundation" series
together to form his conceptual and consistent "Future History".  In
the article there is information from a "Locus" article in which
'Asimov outlined the complete chronology of his future.'  'The
"Robot" and "Foundation" series began as stories in "Astounding"
back in the early '40s, and were only later assembled into connected
sequences.  It was only in 1982 that Asimov started to reveal an
even more comprehensive unity behind his books.'  For more info,
please grab a hold of the newsletter.  Sorry, I don't know which
"Locus" issue the Asimov article was in.

So, at this time, Asimov is quoted as saying this is his current
"future history" outline:

    1 - The Complete Robot (1982)
    2 - The Caves of Steel (1954)
    3 - The Naked Sun (1957)
    4 - The Robots of Dawn (1983)
    5 - Robots and Empire (1985)
    6 - (A so-far untitled linking novel,
        planned but not yet written)
    7 - The Currents of Space (1952)
    8 - The Stars, Like Dust (1951)
    9 - Pebble in the Sky (1950)
   10 - Prelude to Foundation (planned)
   11 - Foundation (1951)
   12 - Foundation and Empire (1952)
   13 - Second Foundation (1953)
   14 - Foundation's Edge (1982)
   15 - Foundation and Earth (in progress) [due this fall]

There are some omissions and outright disclaimers.  Asimov refers
to "The End of Eternity" (which could have started the series) as
'a legend' in "Foundation's Edge."  And, it should be noted, says
the article, that most of his short stories 'are totally outside of
the series.'

I just thought I'd pass this along.  I hope it is found to be
interesting to Asimov fans...

Enjoy!
alan i. vymetalik
bitnet: aiv1974@ritvaxd
uucp:   {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!iav1917

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 86 20:28:41 PDT
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Randall Garrett

I fear you'll be unhappy then.  There won't be any more Lord Darcy
books.  Randall got a degenerative brain infection (or something
like that) which destroyed the parts of the brain which are in
charge of short-term memory.  Can you imagine how frustrating it
must have been for a man who had been brilliant with words and ideas
to come up with an idea and forget it as he was writing it down?
Anyway, it was Vicki who finished the books.  I am sorry to hear she
isn't sticking it out with him any more, though, for as far as I
know he is still alive (if not well).  Seems kind of like a cop-out,
even though I'm sure it must have been hard for her to stay married
to him remembering what he had been like before.

Regards,
Leigh Ann
lah@miro.BERKELEY.EDU
...!ucbvax!miro!lah

------------------------------

Date: Sat 17 May 86 23:10:35-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Good Book!

WIZENBEAK, by Alexis A. Gilliland, just out from Bluejay in trade is
a very good book. Don't be misled by the stupid cover blurb, or the
truly idiotic first-page come-on ("If you like Myth Adventures or
Xanth..." -- there is no resemblance to either), or even the cutesy
cover illio, this book is a good SERIOUS fantasy novel with a very
interesting culture that smacks of both imaginary European and
Japanese medieval traditions (like in a seemingly pseudo-European
kingdom, nobles wear the paired samurai swords and say things like
"Pen and sword, in accord".

Bluejay has done such a bad job of marketing, it could stand as a
shining example of how to screw over an author. If I were Gilliland
they would already be in court.... In fact, with the messages
badmouthing Baen Books (who I don't attempt to defend), I am
surprised no one has mentioned Bluejay. They seem to have something
of a reputation among booksellers for screwing up consignments,
shipping dates, etc., and this terrible job on WIZENBEAK is just
another piece of evidence of their laziness.

Well, back to WIZENBEAK, I haven't even finished the book, but
paused in the middle (I'll finish it tonight) because of the most
egregious typo/typesetting error I have ever seen in a book. This is
from the middle of a paragraph:

Zeldones didn't fit -- the shelf was well short of six feet -- but
he put restore "Marji and Derk"? I find it confusing as is on the
shelf, and made himself comfortable sitting up against the wall as
she went off to her bed in the other room.

Obviously the second line is an editor's note, and its presence
totally ruins the flow of the narrative. I'll rank it with any other
of the typos mentioned previously in the discussion of typos in
recent volumes. Just another reason to dislike Bluejay -- the thing
is, though, they seem to print a lot of stuff I like, and can't find
elsewhere until the mass market edition, which in some cases takes
years, especially it seems, with Bluejay....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Sun 18 May 86 11:43:43-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Humf! (Wizenbeak II)

Well, having finished the book, I am somewhat disappointed. The
writing quality falls off, and there is too much summarization, the
sort of thing that would be fixed by a good editor. The overall
feeling I got was that the book was rushed into print without
sufficient editing (surely even a cursory look at the galleys would
have revealed the typo I mentioned in my last message).

Also, there are some tongue-in-cheek episodes which don't just
describe a humorous incident, they are the author's way of having a
joke, and as such don't belong in a serious novel where people are
dying all over the place. Furthermore, there are a number of minor
plot elements and/or minor loose ends that I got the impression
might pertain to parts of the story that were cut almost as if there
was a dotted line in a few places....like there is a dragon seen in
the middle of the book that doesn't appear again or affect the plot
in any way at all....

Still, even with the faults I mention, WIZENBEAK is still
worthwhile; some of the characters are refreshingly evil, and even
the "good guys" are not so pristine.... If you look at the book one
way, it is a thinly disguised criticism of certain events of modern
history.

Oh yeah, one more thing, Bluejay is charging $9 for a trade
paperback -- not so long ago you could get hardcovers for that
price, particularly sf hardcovers....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 86 20:16:34 -0800
From: Brent Chapman <chapman%pavepaws@BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) writes:
>    Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling
>Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through
>Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are
>also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The
>Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of
>them).  From comments in 'Cat' it diverges from ours sometime after
>1969, since Armstrong and Aldrin are mentioned as performing the
>first lunar landing.

The "tenuous connection" between "The Rolling Stones" and "The Moon
is a Harsh Mistress" that Jon speaks of is none other than Hazel
Stone herself.  In TMIAHM, Hazel is the orphan that gets adopted by
the Davis clan.  There is mention somewhere in the book of her
marrying Slim Lemke, of the Stone clan.  Her identity and past are
confirmed by things Hazel says in both TRS (she is one of "Founders
of the Revolution", or some such, and her full name is given as
Hazel Meade Stone), and in "The Number of the Beast".

Brent Chapman
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 86 08:19:12 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Eternal Champion

From:   sysdes!drw      (Dave Wilson)
> I'm not sure that a lot of the books claimed to perhaps be in the
> Eternal Champion series really are, I just think Mr. Moorcock
> enjoys putting nice little cross-references in!
>
> There are a considerable number of (perhaps questionably)
> unconnected books, including _The Ice Schooner_,...

Well, THE ICE SCHOONER certainly isn't connected if you're
discounting just-cross-references. Konrad Arflane was mentioned as
being another EC aspect in one of the (I think) Erekose books.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   [Find your own path to...]
        !{decvax|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note new UUCP address****

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 16:54:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!lori@caip.rutgers.edu (lori)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL

>Now that FOOTFALL by Niven and Pournell is out in paperback and
>those of us that make less than 100k can afford it: IS IT WORTH
>IT????
>
>I think early Niven is some of the best stuff ever written but I
>never did finish THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE.
>
>FOOTFALL is a biggie and I only have 23 years left till retirement.
>I don't have much time left for mind candy and there are at least
>half a dozen Elmore Leonard books waiting under my bed.

    Pardon me, but if you don't have time for "mind candy", why
didn't you finish THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE?  You can't get much further
from mind candy than that.  Most of the other books that Niven wrote
by himself were nothing more than fancy travelogues anyway (don't
get me wrong; I liked them, they just didn't take much concentration
to read).  If you didn't like MOTE, you won't like FOOTFALL. But let
me tell you, you're missing some of his best work!!

Mark F. Cook
hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 03:07:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL

> FOOTFALL is a biggie and I only have 23 years left till
> retirement. I don't have much time left for mind candy and there
> are at least half a dozen Elmore Leonard books waiting under my
> bed.

Mind candy it is, of the cotton candy variety.  A ho-hum plot with
lots and lots of cardboard characters -- three or four are actually
interesting.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 12:38:02 GMT
From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH

rec@mplvax.UUCP writes:
>Has anyone seen a print of THIS ISLAND EARTH in the last ten
>years???  This is my all time favorite sf film from the 50's but I
>have not seen it on TV or in festivals for at least 10-20 years. I
>hope and pray that this classic is not lost forever.

  TIE is alive and well and living in the UK. It was shown by the
BBC a year or so ago. I don't know if it's available on tape; I
don't have a VCR any more so don't hire films.

  And yes, it is a great film, though slow to get going.  I'd rank
it with Forbidden Planet and War of the Worlds. The last 45 minutes
are wonderful!

  BTW, there was a group called TIE who released a not-bad record in
the UK a while back.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.co.uk>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 17:43:27 GMT
From: jimn@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Jim Nesheim)
Subject: Re: THIS ISLAND EARTH

daver@sci.UUCP writes:
>Didn't they show clips from _This Island Earth_ in one of the
>Spielberg movies (Explorers, or something like that)?  Implications
>are that it exists, even though it might not be available.

I believe that it was "E.T." that had those clips in it.

I have seen "This Island Earth" within the past couple of years -
its out there, but I guess its not a popular movie for local
stations to pick up.

Jim Nesheim
Cornell Theory Center
265 Olin Hall, Cornell U
Ithaca, NY 14853
(607)-255-8686
jimn@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu
{rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver}!{bullwinkle|gould}!batcomputer!jimn

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 86 22:25:26 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Findlay Light vs Pierce Brosnan

For some time now there have been postings definitively stating that
Findlay Light (sp?) was to be the new James Bond in "The Living
Daylights." Nobody ever seemed to give a source for this
information.  However, the following article is from today's
(5/18/86) Boston Globe, reprinted without permission.

The new Bond

(deleted)

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp
nathan@mit-xx.arpa

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Who again?
Date: 17 May 86 04:18:20 GMT

>> "Who is the Doctor's wife? Who is his son/daughter?"
>
>Susan is said to be the Doctor's granddaughter, which leaves open
>many possibilities, but somehow I doubt that they are really
>related.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the Doctor adopted a son
or daughter once?  This means that Susan can be the Doctor's
granddaughter without there ever being a Mrs. Who....

(pure speculation, of course...)

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 86 03:15:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Isaac Asimov, Robots of Dawn

> Clearly, there should be the word "Earth" where I have a [*]
> marked.  This indicates that computer spelling checkers were used
> almost exclusively, as this omission would easily have been caught
> by a human reader.  When even the top (in volume :-) author with a
> bestseller has technical mistakes in his book, it makes you wonder
> how much the publishers really care about presentation quality.

Publishers 99-44/100% care about making money, and NOTHING else.
While I think that it's semi-mythical that publishers once existed
that cared about books per se, in today's conglameratized world they
have gone the way of [insert favorite fantasy here].

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 86 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #125
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:

              Administrivia - New Service for Bitnet,
              Books - Tolkien (5 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Balsters &
                      Great Literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 10:24 CST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: New Service for Bitnet

    Thanks to some good people at TCSVM we now have a way for people
on bitnet to get back issues of SF-LOVERS that they may have missed.
Hopefully, we will also find a way to pass along some of the other
files that have previously only been available to those with FTP
capabilities.

    Now available from TCSSERVE@TCSVM (bitnet) the current volume of
SF-Lovers along with other goodies.  Please don't abuse the Server
as the system is an end node downstream of a few bad phone lines.
Excessive traffic will make them unpopular with other nodes in the
path.

    If you want to take advantage of this facility, or need help in
using it, please contact the following person for details:

  Dan Smith
  BITNET:     SYSBDES@TCSVM
  ARPA:       SYSBDES%TCSVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
  UUCP:       You Tell Me??
  Ma Bell:    (504) 865-5631
  Real Paper: Tulane University
              Tulane Computer Services
              Attn: Dan Smith, Systems Group
              6823 St. Charles Ave.
              New Orleans,  LA 70118-5698

   And now, on with the show....

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 01:26:56 GMT
From: gargoyle!congdon@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Congdon)
Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms

>As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to
>Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???* I
>mean, all Orcs have, albeit *very* distantly, Elvish ancestors, so
>do they share in the immortality? And what happens to a dead Orc?
>Does it go to a special section of the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) and
>get reborn later on, like Elves do (I think)?

   I think that the answer to your question is that they are
immortal, and that the "bad old days" that they remembered were the
end of the second age and the resulting Gondorian occupation after.
The reason for my conclusion is that since they were Mordorian Orcs,
the last war they were likely to have been in was at the end of the
second Age. We see no mention of Orcs in the history of the third
age until the War of the Ring. Certainly, if Orcs from Mordor went
that far North, there would have been quite a stir in Gondor, and
since the South Kingdom was not beset at that time of the Battle of
the Five Armies, Turgon probably would have sent an army after them.
Also, there seems to be the idea a long period in the phrase "bad
old days". After the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age
and the construction of the watch towers, Orcs were certainly not
extinguished, but must have been in hiding. (It was said that the
towers were there to keep the evil things in, not others out.)  As
for the supposition that they were alive in the First Age, I don't
think this is probable since the breaking of Thangorodrim and
Morgoth's power was a rather cataclysmic event. If any Orcs
survived that, they would have been extremely lucky.

Richard Congdon
Dept. of Education, Univ. of Chicago
....ihnp4!garogyle!paideia{richard,root}

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 05:06:08 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Nitpick; was Re: The Istari

lkeber@ulowell.UUCP writes:
>I thought Olorin was a Maiar of Lorien. By the way, Sauron was also
>a Maiar of Aule.

Please!  "Maiar" is plural--"Maia" is the singular.
Oh, incidentally:

In THE SILMARILLION, "Valaquenta", "Of the Maiar", JRRT (Professor
T.) writes:

"    Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin.  He too dwelt in Lorien, but his
ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned
pity and patience."

    This was the clearest reference I could find on the
"affiliation" of Olorin.  I don't think Maiar necessarily have to be
identified with a particular Vala.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 86 22:38:04 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms

The Silmarillion says that Orcs multiplied after the manner of the
Children of Iluvatar.  It doesn't say what happens to them after
they die.  I imagine since they were not created by the power of
Iluvatar, they merely die, and do not pop up in the Halls of Mandos,
or anywhere else.

Orcs were involved throughout the Third Age, from the Disaster of
the Gladden Fields up through the War of the Ring.  (For examples,
check out Appendix B of The Return of the King for the chronology of
the Third Age.)  It was not the uruks (Mordorian Orcs) that fought
in those early wars -- these Orcs were based mainly in the Misty
Mountains to prevent escapes by the Elves who lived in Lorien,
Mirkwood or points east.

It is also said in the Silmarillion that the Orcs of Beleriand
perished in a great fire (paraphrased).  Most likely those remaining
Orcs fled Beleriand and eventually found the Misty Mountains, as did
the Balrog, Shelob, etc.  Supposedly, Sauron bred the uruks.

gregbo

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 16 May 1986 10:33:11-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Tom Bombadil

I think it is most likely that Tom Bombadil and the river daughter
are Maiar.

When Valinor was built, the Valar and most of the Maiar left Middle
Earth to dwell there.  Some remained behind or later left Valinor
and returned to Middle Earth (e.g., Melian).  Tom Bombadil tells the
Hobbits that he was in the West of Middle Earth already when the
Elves first came there.  Since the Elves were the eldest of the
Children of Illuvatar, Tom would have to be one of the Ainur.  My
belief is that he is one of the minor Maiar in service to Yavanna
(the river daughter probably serves Ulmo or Uinen).

There is further evidence of this at the end of The Lord of the
Rings.  When Gandalf and the Hobbits part company outside Bree,
Gandalf tells them that he is going to have a long talk with
Bombadil.  He says something to the effect of "He is a
moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling.  But my
rolling days are over, and now we will have much to say to each
other."  Gandalf seems to consider the two of them akin.

Bombadil's behavior towards the Ring says nothing about the extent
of his power.  Gandalf himself explained it to the Council of
Elrond.  It is not that Bombadil has a power over the ring, rather
that it has no power over him.  Things of craft and power (such as
the ring) have no hold on his mind.  The Ring was treacherous to
Saruman and Gandalf not because they were Maiar, but because they
were loremasters.  The temptation that the Ring offered was power
beyond the station of the possessor.  Bombadil had no desire for
power or lore beyond what he had already--he had set the bounds of
his domain and desired only to remain within those bounds
undisturbed.  The Ring held no allure for him, nor was he capable of
understanding its power over others.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 86 17:21:53 GMT
From: marco@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (the wharf rat)
Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic"

S7YLF4%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
> Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most
> other fantasy magic.  For instance (as someone mentioned) the
> shape-changing is hardly literal; it was more of an atmosphere
> created (for example, The only specific magic I can think of are
> Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers.  The
> other magic is much more

  Gandalf often creates fire.  What about enchanted swords, the
Phial of Galadirel, etc. ?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 86 16:08 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLLMFE.ARPA
Subject: Latest and Greatest PGGB receipes!

Well, since I mentioned that I was collecting the posted terran
versions of the PGGBs I have been deluged with requests for them, so
instead of mailing out 50 copies, I am reposting the mothers.
Please cut this and save it for further brain damaging.

I have only tried the Jupiter Sunrise, and I loved it.
Unfortunately it was a weeknight, so we couldn't get carried away,
but next time for sure!

                  THE PAN GALACTIC GARGLE BLASTER

   The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol.  It
says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster.
   It says that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster
is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped
round a large gold brick.
   The Guide also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic
Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one
and which voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate
afterward.

How to make one...

 Take the juice from one bottle of Ol' Janx Spirit.
 Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of
       Santraginus V (Oh, that Santraginus seawater! Oh, those
       Santraginus fish!)
 Allow three cubes of Artutan Megagin to melt into the
       mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzine is lost)
 Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it,
       in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure
       in the Marshes of Fallia.
 Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin
       Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the
       dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet, and mystic.
  Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger.  Watch it
        dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into
        the heart of the drink.
  Sprinkle Zamphuor.
  Add an olive.
  Drink ... oh! but ... very carefully ...

Now here are several Terran approximations on the theme...

AKA  The Moose River Hummer, courtesy of Diane Holt

Mix equal parts in a shot glass...
 Bacardi 151
 Peppermint Schnapps
 Galliano
Throw it back at once!

CAUTION: Never sip at it, it will only get mad at you and sip back.
Make sure you have a ride home.

AKA  The Jupiter Sunrise (at least before it turns green),
        courtesy of Timothy Thomas

For two mild Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters mix
 1.5 jiggers golden or dark rum (That Ol' Janx Spirit)
 0.5 jiggers Amaretto (Xamphour)
 0.5 jiggers triple sec or Curacao (Santraginean water)
 1.5 to 2 oz frozen OJ concentrate
 shake, strain into glasses with fresh ice
 add ginger ale or tonic to suit (bubbled through Fallian marsh gas)
 add a thin wedge of lemon
 float a bit of blue Curacao over the top of a silver spoon to keep
  it from sinking to the bottom (Qalactin Hypermint Extract)
 "olive" is probably one of those flexible terms like "jinnantonyx";
        if you must have something, use a brandied grape
         fill a jar with fresh white grapes
         cover with 9 parts (or more) brandy
         1 part powdered sugar
         seal and leave for several weeks
 Drink and enjoy the color change

AKA  The Blue Lagoon (an innocent name for a deadly concoction),
        courtesy of Iain Robertson

 Take a straight, chilled halfpint glass
 Add one measure of blue Curacoa
 Add two measures of Vodka
 Add one measure of Cointreau
 Make up to a half pint with lemonade
 Add crushed ice, lemon, straws,  plastic umbrellas, etc.
 Drink  (carefully, need we remind you)

AKA  The Suffering Bastard, courtesy Mark Lambert at the bar of
YoYodyne, Inc.

 1 oz Bacardi 151 rum
 2 oz amber rum
 2 oz light rum
 1 oz triple sec (no sense wasting Cointreau on this...)
 spoonful brown sugar
 pinapple juice and OJ to fill a 16 oz glass
 juice of a lemon
 wedge of cucumber (for the purist)
 shake, pour in a tall glass over crushed ice, add little parasols,
  etc.
 drink (how?  carefully, remember?)

My version of Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster (try at your own risk),
        courtesy of Kenneth Leung:

 G*rd*n's g*n
 B*card*'s L*ght         No Brand name intended, but I use only
 Sm*rn*ff's Vodka        high quality stuff.
 Tr*ple Sec
 M*untain Dew
 Lime Juice or food dye

Mix to your desired strength and color.

/*NOT RECOMMENDED BEFORE DRIVING OR STEALING BLACK SPACESHIPS WHICH
MAY BE RUNNING INTO THE SUN IN THE NEAR FUTURE */

A formula sent me by a friend for PGGBs is an easy one to remember:

 1 part Scotch
 1 part Gin
 1 part Vodka
 1 part Apple Cider (hard is optional, Martinelli's nonsparking or
    Farley's hard cider are recommended)

When mixed properly, the mixture turns clear @ 10 seconds after
mixed, w/just a hint of gold about it. Also, the semi  official
'round town drink of the Dark Star UCSD science fiction club
DarkStars: 151 & A&W root beer, 50/50.  Not too awful bad, and
rarely seems to cause hangovers.

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 19:20:00 GMT
From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

For Bruce N. Wheelock
> Actually, I think Steven Brust had already made it pretty clear
> that he isn't writing with the intent of becoming one of those
> musty authors who only get read when English instructors force
> them on captive students.  Except for critics and teachers, nobody
> reads professionally; reading is either a leisure activity or an
> educational one.  The point you make about not wanting or needing
> Joyce, Kafka, Montaigne, or such like, during your leisure time is
> exactly what's wrong with so-called "great literature."  The stuff
> is so stodgy and incomprehensible that it cannot survive outside
> the sterile atmos- phere of the classroom.

Speaking as both an impending MA in English and Creative Writing, a
freelance critic *AND* a long-time SF fan, I feel that rare and
luscious need to flame you to cinders.  Perhaps you find "great
literature" stodgy and imcomprehensible, but I can assure you that
hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, in and out of
classrooms, have disagreed.  What you fail to realize is that most
'literature' is difficult, not as fluid to read, because it's old.
The prose and speaking styles of Dickens, Twain and the like,
require a little warmup to get used to.  Then the stuff reads, and
affects the reader, like the masterpiece calibre material it is.

I do not feel that anyone is under any moral obligation to enjoy
serious fiction, be it current or from a bygone era.  Nor do I find
anything inherently wrong with enjoying sleazo SF for its own sake -
I have gobbled up all the Zelazny, etc., that exists.  In rare
cases, I would even say that there are SF writers who approach
'literature' status: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the Sun" tetralogy and
Samuel Delany's "Dhalgren" being the prime examples.  But most SF
does not approach contemporary literature in what you quaintly call
'hidden meaning'.  Serious fiction today - read almost entirely out
of classrooms, which won't catch up for another 20 years - is
incomparably superior to almost all SF, which is entertaining as all
hell, but not nearly so profound an intellectual and emotional
experience as, say, Jayne Ann Phillips' novel "Machine Dreams," or
Toni Morrison's "Song Of Solomon," or Norman Mailer's "The
Executioner's Song," or Gordon Lish's "Peru" or Grace Paley's "Later
The Same Day" or Amy Hempel's "Reasons To Live" or E.L. Doctorow's
"The Book Of Daniel" or Gabriel Marquez' "One Hundred Years Of
Solitude" or Mark Helprin's "Winter's Tale" or Philip Roth's "The
Ghost Writer."  Or a hundred other fine contemporary writers of
serious fiction.

Get the point?  If you, or anyone else, takes the attitude that all
the above, plus their literary forebearers, Hemingway, Joyce, Kafka,
Proust, Dreiser, et al, are 'stodgy and incomprehensible' then you
probably A) haven't read very much, because such accusations aren't
true, or B) you have become the classic American, weaned on TV and
the movies, whose mind is incapable of concentrating for more than
10 minutes on the printed word - unless, of course, it's quick,
easy, bright and entertaining, without making too much of a demand
on your intellect, which describes most SF.  I'll bet you don't like
Wolfe, do you?  *HE*, among all SF writers, may have produced the
best literature.

But speaking personally, as a reader, a critic, a writer and a lover
of literature, who will probably spend the next fifty years of my
life watching it die, replaced by the video image in the hearts of a
generation of brainless numbheads - don't you DARE call great
literature stodgy and incomprehensible.  It was stodgy and
incomprehensible geniuses like Shakespeare and Joyce who created the
intellectual world that you live in, who invented the literary forms
that pablum pulp writers like Stephen Donaldson (who I enjoy very
much) and the like make their living off of.

If you don't like great literature the failing is your own.  Please
don't insult those of us who have dedicated our lives to it.

mike krantz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 86 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #126
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 May 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:

                Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Kurtz &
                        Doc Savage & Funny SF,
                Films - The New James Bond,
                Television - Doctor Who,
                Miscellaneous - The SCA and SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 86 19:06:29 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RAH multiverses

>>[...FRIDAY is in the same universe is ["Gulf"]]
> Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones",

Nonsense.

It has been argued that TMIaHM and Stones are in the same universe;
as far as I've seen, this claim rests solely on the duplication of a
redhead named Hazel Meade Stone. Since the HMS of Stones claims to
have been a colonist while the one in TMIaHM was a creche orphan
this is unlikely. RAH seems to have virtually abandoned his future
history by the late 50's (I wouldn't even swear that DOOR INTO
SUMMER (1957?) is inline), but he recycled bits and pieces into his
later stories, e.g. there's an episode in the history of RED PLANET
that happens offstage in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND.

But there isn't even this tenuous connection between the two latter
mentioned and the FRIDAY universe. Note the first line of FRIDAY:
       "As I left the Kenya Beanstalk capsule, he was right on my
heels". (*) Beanstalk or Kalidasa's Tower or whatever the original
name for this was, it's much too big to have vanished from
TMIaHM---after all, if you're shipping out prisoners you'll use the
cheapest method, and once you've built such a tower it's going to be
a lot cheaper than reaction drives.
   Or consider that in GULF the moon is a resort, with no indication
of farms, ex-prisoners, or political independence.
   Certainly this is negative evidence---but I recently reread
TMIaHM and there was \\no// indication that it connected with the
FRIDAY universe, which I'd call RAH's Chaos line ("Gulf" is probably
the oldest SF story to suggest ecdysiasts at lunch counters).
Chaotic years are mentioned in the mainline future history (see the
headlines quoted a few pages into METHUSALEH'S CHILDREN) but nothing
as severe as in FRIDAY, and much earlier (1970's-80's, in fact).
(Based solely on chaos-on-Earth FRIDAY might be linked to I WILL
FEAR NO EVIL---but I really don't believe RAH was actually trying to
link any of his later novels to the future history line; he was more
interested in randomness and didacticism.

   I'll be happy to read any contrary arguments, but sweeping
statements like the one above should be backed up when presented.

(*) thanks to ?Adina? ?Susan? for quoting this over the phone from
the MITSFS.

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 18:39:28 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: RE: Dividing up Heinlein

   Heinlein's work (with the exceptions of TCWWTW and NOTB) can be
divided up into three categories. Future History, Utopia, and
Twilight Zone. The Future History stories have already been listed,
but as far as novels go there's: TMWSTM, The Green Hills of Earth,
Revolt in 2100, MC, Orphan's of the Sky, and TEFL.
   Utopia stories are any stories where RH spends most of his time
telling us how to have a perfect society. The most obvious examples
are: Beyond This Horizon and Starship Troopers. I also include: 1)
All the Juvenile books. (The good are rewarded, the bad guys are
punished, and everybody gets loads of adventure.) 2) Stranger In a
Strange Land.  (Dictates the model of perfect human relationships.)
3) The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (model of a perfect revolution). 4)
Friday (why modern soceity is doomed to break down and what we
should do about it.)
   The Twilight Zone stories are any bizzare stories that are
written soley for entertainment value. Examples: Anything in 6*H
(especially THEY), Everything in MFE except the title story, and
everything in AIE.  The exceptions to this classification are Double
Star (which fits best in TZ, but not realy anywhere.) , and, more
importantly, TNOTB and CWWTW. These books tie together *EVERYTHING*
RH or anybody else has ever written via the Gay Deceiver time-space
doohickey.  Hopefuly, this list will help someone somewhere
sometime.

p.s. Does Heinlein go to any conventions? Which ones?

BITNET: 6090617@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 01:57:34 PDT
From: jon@csvax.caltech.edu (Jonathan P. Leech)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

> Brent Chapman writes
> Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) writes:
>>    Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling
>>Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through
>>Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are
>>also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The
>>Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of
>>them).
>
> The "tenuous connection" between "The Rolling Stones" and "The Moon
> is a Harsh Mistress" that Jon speaks of is none other than Hazel
> Stone herself.

    Wrongo, the "tenuous connection" is between TRS and the Mars
novels, which interpretation should have been clear from the
posting.  The connection between "Cat", TRS, and TMIAHM is
"intuitively obvious to the casual observer" as we used to say about
Math 1 problems.  A pity that "Cat" didn't STAY in that timeline.

    So, does anyone have the canonical set of acronyms for Heinlein
novels yet?

Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon)
Caltech Computer Science Graphics Group

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 86 14:48:06 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE KING'S JUSTICE by Katherine Kurtz (mild spoiler)

The description in the inside jacket cover is rather long, so I'll
break from my tradition and provide a summary myself.

This is volume II of the "Histories of King Kelson", a series which
started with THE BISHOP'S HEIR. It deals with King Kelson's campaign
against the province of Meara and his old enemies Archbishop Loris
and Queen Caitrin.  Other interesting highlights include Kelson's
mother, Queen Jehana, returning to court, the introduction of
Haldane powers to Kelson's uncle Nigel, and the further adventures
of Alaric Morgan, Duncan McLain, and Dhugal MacArdry, and some more
glimpses of the Camberian Council.

If you're not familiar with the "Deryni" series of Katherine Kurtz,
let me provide a brief overview. The world is very similar to earth
during the medieval period, even to the point of there being a
Christian church, Moors, etc. However, humanity is divided into two
groups, Deryni (the minority), who have various "magical" powers,
and untalented humans. Most of the Deryni powers are mental ones -
various amounts of telepathy and the ability to plant "suggestions"
or control a person's actions, though there are a few Deryni
healers.  The Deryni have been feared and persecuted by the Church
for over two hundred years, but they are tolerated to some degree at
the time of the Kelson stories. Kelson himself is part Deryni, and
Alaric and Duncan are Deryni who haven't had any formal training. As
you might expect from this scenario, the stories are high fantasy,
full of adventure and excitement.

I've yet to rate a Deryni book less than 3.5 stars (very, very
good), and this one is no exception. In fact, I give it my highest
rating, 4.0 stars.  This rating comes automatically when, late at
night, I decide to read a chapter before going to bed, and then I
decide to read another, and I want to see what happens next so I
read another, and finally I give up any thought of a full night's
sleep and read the entire book.

One word of caution. Many of the characters in this book have
appeared in other Deryni stories, Alaric and Duncan in particular,
and there are so many interesting characters that the author
thoughtfully put an index of characters at the back of the book. If
you haven't read any of the Deryni books, you might do well to start
with one of the earlier ones, such as DERYNI RISING. You certainly
should read THE BISHOP'S HEIR before THE KING'S JUSTICE to get an
understanding of what's gone on before, though you'd probably enjoy
the book even without having read the other one first.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 13:00:12 GMT
From: cje@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Ernst @ Sanctum Sanctorum)
Subject: Doc Savage paperbacks query (*SPOILER*)

Would some kind-hearted collector please give me some information on
the following "Doc Savage" paperbacks?  These are books not in my
own collection.

What I'm looking for, for each title, is
   a) a description of the cover
   b) the villain's name (costumed name and alter-ego, where
      applicable)
   c) the name and nature of any unusual weapon used by the villain
   d) the name and nature of the villain's goal
   e) the locales of the story

For example, for the first book, "The Man of Bronze":
   a) Doc in yellow light on black background, fists clenched, shirt
      torn
   b) The Son of the Feathered Serpent (Don Rubio Gorro)
   c) The Red Death (plague germ)
   d) gold
   e) New York City; The Valley of the Vanished, the Republic of
      Hidalgo, Central America

If you're feeling verbose, you could reproduce the back-cover blurb
(just the story-specific one) for me, too, though this is above and
beyond...

paperback
  number    title
    10   The Phantom City
    19   The Pirate of the Pacific
    29   The Other World
    31   The Annihilist
    33   The Terror in the Navy
    42   The Gold Ogre
    43   The Man Who Shook the Earth
    80   The King Maker
    81   The Stone Man
    82   The Evil Gnome
    83   The Red Terrors
    86   The Angry Ghost
    87   The Spotted Men

If any serious collector would also like to describe the cover of
the original PULP magazine for ANY of the Doc Savage stories, I'd
appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
ARPA: JAROCHA-ERNST@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
UUCP: {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!topaz!cje

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 86 23:38:19 GMT
From: 6080626@pucc.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Funny SF

Probably the funniest SF story I have read is "Wasp" by Eric Frank
Russell. It's the only story I have heard of by him and is amusing
from start to near the end (I don't like the ending that much). Or
how about the "Myth" series by Robert Asprin? Although those
occasionally cross the line between humor and stupidity.

Adam Barr
Princeton University

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 14:02:25 GMT
From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Findlay Light vs Pierce Brosnan

nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes:
> The new Bond
>       Somehow you knew that TV heartthrob Pierce Brosnan
> wouldn't be out of work for long. One day after NBC canceled his
> "Remington Steele" series last week, Brosnan was announced as the
> new James Bond.  He makes his 007 debut in "The Living Daylights,"
> which is in pre-production in London.

   If this is true, then I will be watching Bond movies for a long
time to come. Brosnan should make a terrific Bond. I hate to see
REMINGTON STEELE end, but something good has come out of it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 86 21:46:12 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doctor Who
To: Graham Hotchkiss <glasgow.glasgow!hotchkis@caip.rutgers.edu>

I very much agree that the amount we happen to see of the Doctor's
doings can't possibly include all of them.  Remember, the Brigadier
has seen four of his generations, over a period that must be less
than 20 years.  Since a Time Lord has 12 re-generations to sustain
him through approx. 1200 years (I think), this suggests that the
Doctor has been wasting regenerations at a catastrophic rate.  It
seems to me inevitable that he has been spending considerable
amounts of personal time in other periods, returning to 20th century
England every time as a home away from home, and that each
generation has had many more years than we see (the third Doctor is
perhaps an exception, since it wasn't until Carnival of Monsters
that the TARDIS would take him anywhere at all without the Time
Lords' intervention).  As far as The Face of Evil goes, I should
think it quite likely that his tinkering with Zoannon came about on
one such excursion.

I've always taken it on faith that whenever the TARDIS shows up in
some spot where we have no reference for the period (Robots of
Death, for example) it could be any time at all, past or future, and
I enjoy the fact that it doesn't matter.

An unrelated problem which your mention of The Three Doctors recalls
to mind: the third Doctor obviously had no memory of the point of
view of the second.  Furthermore, in the Five Doctors, the fifth
(Davison's) should have recalled the whole thing from the points of
view of his previous selves; likewise, the third (the fourth being
trapped and unavailable) should have recalled the points of view of
the first two.

The Time Lords and their memory manipulations again?  Rather makes
you wonder where, if anywhere, they draw the line.  Still, perhaps
it's just one nasty consequence of having broken the first law of
time.

> Therefore it seems that when a doctor regenerates it is perhaps
> the splitting of parralel future possibilities.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Are you suggesting that the
generations all live in parallel, and that a regeneration simply
means starting on the next parallel course?  It's pretty clear, I
think, that the generations are sequential, each one continuing the
life lead by its predecessor.  Certainly memories and experiences
continue, as for a single man.  My own feeling is that, aside from
altered tastes and personality quirks, all the generations are
indeed the same man.  Certainly this appears to be the legal
viewpoint on Gallifrey, where a Time Lord elected to office retains
that office through regeneration.

But I'm afraid that probably doesn't answer your suggestion, since I
don't really follow it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 86 13:53:35 EDT
From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA
To: Pavel.pa@xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Society for Creative Anchronism (SCA)

Sorry to get you all uptight.  I read it somewhere and just wanted
confirmation or deconformation.  The replies that I have gotten have
indicated that I was way off base in what I read.  I think I read it
in Twilight Zone or Factsheet Five.  About 10 people have replied to
me and assured me this wasn't true.  The reason I asked is because I
wanted to know if it was true and why? It didn't seem quite right
and I am always looking for strange phenomena.  Sorry to to set you
off, Pavel.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 86 14:50 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: SCA people and SF people

I don't know what you are on about.  I am not an SCA type, but I am
an SF fan, and I have several friends who are into the SCA.  I think
the problem is the devotion and fanaticism which they extrude.  I
have met several SCA people that I would not let my dog associate
with.  These people smelled worse than the dog too.  However, as
with groups, I have met some very nice people.  A christian fellow
told me once that "every group has its nut cases" and I think he hit
it on the head.  The thing is that the people who are the most vocal
are often the same nut cases.  And the photos of them bashing each
other with swords probably doesn't help either.

All SF fans do is run around in hotels dressed weird until their
blood alcohol level reaches 25% at which time they burn out like a
collapsar and pass out in the halls, making the hotel vow never to
have another convention again.

Jon

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 86 0922-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #127
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 May 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Ellison & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   Powers & Sagan & Footfall (3 msgs),
           Films - This Island Earth & Legend,
           Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs) & Tripods,
           Miscellaneous - Filk Songs & Gargle Blasters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 11:49:31 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: DEATH OF A FOY

Ok, I agree that it was painful. However, it was very definitely
FUNNY!  What was wrong with it?

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 86 05:35:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Time is Money

> The novel I had in mind was Jack Vance's _The Faceless Man_
> (1971), which is mainly _not_ about time.  I like "Repent,
> Harlequin ..." better, but does it antedate TFM?

"'Repent, Harlequin,' said the Ticktock Man" was originally
published in the magazine GALAXY in 1965.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 18:18:44 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Re: RAH multiverses

From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
>>>[...FRIDAY is in the same universe is ["Gulf"]]
>>    Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones",
>
>Nonsense.

The connection to _Friday_ is a lot more tenuous than in MIAHM. At
one point, Friday calls Luna to speak to Bialey's lawyer. The moon
is referred to as Luna Free State. This answers your other objection
about Beanstalks. The Bean Stalks and the break up of the U.S.
occurred after the Revolution.  (Note that in TCWWTW Beanstalks are
mentioned.)

BITNET: 6090617@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 23:47:28 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Heinlein's future history

  There are a lot of stories nobody has mentioned that are clearly
part of his future history.  _Space Cadet_ and _Farmer in the Sky_
for instance.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 09:00:58 GMT
From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: William Ashbless (& Blaylock)

  The story I have heard: Tim Powers and James Blaylock went to
school together.  While students, they conceived of the hoax poet
William Ashbless, and created a "biography" of same.  Now that they
are both big-time SF authors, they include Ashbless in EVERY book
they write (I haven't found any that don't have Ashbless, either as
a reference or as a character).

  Random note #1: notice the name of the ship in "Anubis Gates" -
     the Blaylock.

  Random note #2: does anyone (or everyone) else agree with me that
     James Blaylock is, arguably, the most boring author currently
     writing?

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

------------------------------

Date: 20-May-1986 1606
From: redford%jeremy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John Redford)
Subject: "Contact" by Carl Sagan

I'm surprised that there's been so little mention of "Contact" here.
It's been out in paperback for months now.  Are people turned off by
the bestseller-hype around it?  By Sagan's TV series?

If so, you're missing a treat.  Sagan is not an sf fan, and he's not
strong on plot, but there's more Sense of Wonder in this book than
I've seen in a long time.  It's about a subject that's dear to
Sagan's heart, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.  The
protagonist is a woman astronomer that gets caught up in the search,
to the point of becoming the director of a radio telescope array in
the Southwest that's dedicated to it.  The Message finally comes in
and the chase begins: what does it mean?  Who sent it?  What shall
we do about it?  I won't say anything more about the plot, except to
add that it ends with the most extraordinary way to prove the
existence of God that I've ever come across.

The characters are good, the technical parts are fascinating, and
there's a strong current of philosophy.  This is a five out of five
star sf book, folks, and it was done by an outsider.  Why can't our
regular sf authors do this well?

John Redford
DEC-Israel

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 23:35:11 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Footfall

    I would say that 'Footfall' lies about midway between 'Lucifer's
Hammer' (boo!) and 'The Mote in God's Eye' (horay!). It has some of
the annoying cast of thousands features of 'Lucifer's Hammer', but
the material was more interesting. The aliens were not nearly as
intriguing as the Moties, but on the whole it was a good enough
read. My vote for Hugo would still be 'Blood Music', though.

   Some minor annoying features: the book at times seemed like an ad
for Star Wars and the space program. More ludicrously, it was a sort
of ad for the brilliance of SF authors. In the book, Robert Anson
Heinlein (without the last name) and his merry crew get to do the
advice-dispensing which in real life some academic brain-gang
probably headed up by guys like Sagan or Dyson would do. Maybe the
SF authors really would do a better job, but who would ask?

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 11:11:35 EDT
Subject: Footfall
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jim White)

>Okay, who's read _Footfall_?  I just finished my copy, and here's a
>brief, non-spoiler opinion:
>
>Like _Lucifer's Hammer_, I had a hard time putting the book down.
>It flowed well, and Niven and Pournelle made it fairly easy for me
>to identify with the characters.  The ending seemed rather abrupt,
>though.  After 574 pages, I wanted things to be resolved a little
>more cleanly.
>Brian Clapper

I finished Footfall about 3 weeks ago and have these comments;

                  ******  spoiler warning  ******

Basically it was a good book. I thought it started out quite
believable and , once the spaceship was discovered, I liked how
Niven/Pournelle handled the preparation activity of Earths
scientific/military and political units.

The actual contact was great. I was impressed with the authors'
description of the paniced man trying to exist in vacuum long enough
to get into a 'bubble' life support system. This all during the
attack on the Soviet Space Station.

I questioned the purpose of the Survivalist group. I gather
Pournelle may be a quazi/pseudo survivalist, thus he may responsible
for those sections.  The whole survivalist compound seemed outside
of the story line.

I thought the process of building the Earth (Archangel)attack vessel
completely unrealistic. I understand the technology to build that
type of craft may exist or nearly exist, but it couldn't be put
together as fast as it was, (1 year??).  The building and launch
seemed on the whole too flawless. Given the state of our current
space program, the perfection seems totally surreal.

The last 150 pages did grip me also. I was gobbling them up in my
rush to read them. Great tension and excitment. The ending was ok,
but a little anti-climatic. Maybe there is more comming, eh?

I also liked the interplay between the two cultures. One a definite
'herd mentality', (the pfithp,sp?), and the human's more independent
culture.  The pfithp's ultimate inability to understand humanity led
to the book's conclusion.

Poor Kansas !

                      ***** end spoiler ******

Niven and Pournelle have combined for these books;

 The Mote in God's Eye
 Lucifers Hammer
 Oath of Fealty (I know Niven, I think Pournelle)
 Footfall

I'd put Footfall ahead of Oath of Fealty, but behind the other two,
in terms of quality.

Jim White

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 23:17:38 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow)

I found Footfall to be a very solid thriller.  Hard to put down and
well worth the read.  The SF isn't what I would call
ground-breaking, but it is well prepared and interesting.

SPOILER:

Footfall serves as a good example of how much you have to suspend
disbelief to get a convincing alien invasion story.  The levels of
technology of the two cultures have to be very close (or very
non-human) to allow an invasion that isn't certain.

In Footfall, if the aliens had arrived as little as 30 years ago,
they would have taken over the Earth without a second thought.  We
had no space capability and little nuclear weaponry.  Even in the
book, the strange alien philosophy of war was all that kept the
human race intact.  They felt that the only way you win a war is by
assimilating the other race.  Destruction was never their goal.
Otherwise, any form of bio weapon (or more feet) would have done the
job.

Had the aliens arrived 50 years from the time of the book, they
would have been blown out of the sky, considering their philosophy.
With more equal technologies, being outnumbered millions to one
would have told the tale.

This the amazing coincidence that two races, each millions of years
old, would intersect at the precise time for an interesting battle
is hard to justify.  But then, you wouldn't have a good book without
it.

What I really hate is alien invasion stories that aren't crafted as
well as Footfall.  They have aliens with technology far beyond ours
having to fight a battle for control.  Things like V and every B SF
movie count in here.

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 09:52:48 -0500
Subject: THIS ISLAND EARTH
From: E. Wesley Miller Jr. <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>

   For those of you who have laser disc players, MCA Home Video has
THIS ISLAND EARTh already on the shelves. It should also be
available on tape.

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 01:07:08 GMT
From: oliveb!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Legend

From: WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
> Has anyone actually seen the European version ?  I was not aware
> that the movie I saw was hacked (and I liked the music by
> Tangerine Dream and John Anderson).  I am just curious as to what
> was cut out.

The Euro-version had mostly classical music as the soundtrack and
had about 10 minutes more total running time.  Most of what was cut
was divided (1/2 & 1/2) between the "textural" shots and scenes both
in the floating-fluff-filled-forest and the deep-dark underworld.

I guess I was struck the most by Tim Curry's performance.  I also
wished that there was more done with character of the fairy -- I
liked the movie, as a whole, very much.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 06:41:58 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

> An unrelated problem which your mention of The Three Doctors
> recalls to mind: the third Doctor obviously had no memory of the
> point of view of the second.  Furthermore, in the Five Doctors,
> the fifth (Davison's) should have recalled the whole thing from
> the points of few of his previous selves; likewise, the third (the
> fourth being trapped and unavailable) should have recalled the
> points of view of the first two.
>
> The Time Lords and their memory manipulations again?  Rather makes
> you wonder where, if anywhere, they draw the line.  Still, perhaps
> it's just one nasty consequence of having broken the first law of
> time.

I cannot remember the reference, but I do recall that one of the
doctors mentioned that their memories are partially erased from
regeneration.  What this amounts to is that a time lord will forget
parts of his past.  Consider the following paradox:

Timelord1 (First incarnation) meets up with Timelord2 (or any
successive incarnation).  They face a conflict together.  How is the
crisis resolved if Timelord2 already knows the outcome?  Does he
simply tell Timelord1 what "happened"?  And then, in telling him so
prevents the event from happening at all??  If the original course
of events never happens, how can Timelord2 know about it?  I believe
that this is one of the classical paradoxes of time travel.  To get
around this, Timelords selectively 'forget' any bit of information
that may have occured to the Timelord while meeting himself/herself.
A real Kludge Job, but it tidys up all the loose edges.  Probably
the work of Rassilon :-)

Shared points of view are shown to exist.  In The Five Doctors, the
Doctor (#2 & #3) exchange information via a telepathic
concentration.  I believe this was possible due to the similarity of
'their' brainwave patterns.  The idea here is that POVs can be
exchanged if two or three or four or more incarnations take the time
to do it.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1986 09:23:55 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Cc: WAHL.ES@XEROX.COM
Subject: More about you-know-Who

    First off, thanks to all those who have answered (or have yet to
answer) my questions concerning the "Face of Evil" and the Doctor's
family. Now here's another:
    At the end of "The Two Doctors", both Doctors go off in their
respective TARDISes without bothering to deal with the dead bodies
of Shockeye, Chessene, and Dastari, not to mention the remains of
the Sontarans and the Khartz-Reimer module. Isn't that rather
irresponsible of them, considering the consequences if the people
living near the hacienda discover the bodies? I would have expected
the Second Doctor to show a little concern for Dastari, but he seems
just as willing as the Sixth Doctor to go skipping off into the
universe without a thought for his fallen friend.

    While you Whovians out there ponder that one, here's a Doctor
Who joke:

    Q. What is Nyssa's favorite dish?
    A. Kipper of Traken!

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 19:31:45 GMT
From: ritcv!sds5044@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven D. Smith)
Subject: Tripods TV Seris

   I have some questons concerning Tripods.

1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or TrIpods II?

2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the
   river leading to the great city.  What will become of Fritz still
   in the city?

3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written?

4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance
   to talk to Julius?

5. Can  anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends?  Will the
   Tripods be destroyed?

Thank you,
Roman
P.S. Posted by Steven D. Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 14:29 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: filksong
Cc: 6103014%pucc.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Harold Feld)

Horsetamer's Daughter is by Leslie Fish and Off Centaur publications
has an excellent tape out by that name, by Julia Ecklar, featuring
the song.  If anyone's interested, I'll post address.

(I have no connection with Off Centaur, but am a dedicated Julia
Ecklar fan.)

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 18:16:06 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Ignore the Gargle-Blaster----Here Comes BLUE STUFF

At Lastcon T'ree last year some one was serving Romulan Ale, also
known as Blue Stuff. This stuff is dynamite! Truly! Would I lie to
you?  Anyway, the recipe goes something like this:

   1 part Vodka
   1 part Rum
   1 part Blue Curacoa
   2 parts Lemonade

Mix well, serve chilled. A gentle wallop disguised.

BITNET: 6090617@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 May 86 1122-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #128
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:

         Books - Butterworth & Duane & Heinlein (4 msgs) &
                 Herbert & Footfall,
         Television - Tripods & Doctor Who (2 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - Great Literature & Filksongs (2 msgs) &
                 Copyright Information & Etymology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dec-akov68!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Michael Butterworth [was Moorcock (TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS)]
Date: 20 May 86 12:37:27 GMT

From:   reed!soren      (Soren Petersen)
> I had never heard of any sequel.  What's the title?  Was it ever
> released in this country? in paperback?
>
> Has Butterworth ever written anything else, by the way?  Except for
> TotH, I'd never seen or heard of him.

Gee, did I forget to mention the title of the sequel? I guess I did.
So sorry. It's QUEENS OF DELIRIA, and no, it never had an American
edition, which is most likely why you've never heard of it.

Other than a half-dozen SPACE: 1999 novelizations (which *have*
appeared in American paperbacks), I don't know of anything else that
Butterworth has done, except in an editorial capacity for Savoy
Books. a British small-press paperback outfit.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note *new* new UUCP address****

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1986 10:30 EDT
From: Ben Yalow  <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Diane Duane

For the benefit of those Diane Duane completists, there is a new
Duane short story, called "Uptown Local".  It appears in an
anthology called "Dragons & Dreams", Ed: Jane Yolen, Martin
Greenberg, Charles Waugh, from Harper & Row.

It fits in as part of the "Wizard" series.

Ben Yalow
YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 02:55:47 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

    While we're on the subject, has anyone noticed that many of
Heinlein's books, particularly his juveniles, come very close to
fitting into the "History of the Future"?  _Space Cadet_, for
example, alludes to Johnny Dahlquist (from "The Long Watch"), and
would seem to fit perfectly--save that the actual Future History at
that date is deep in the Interregnum of Nehemiah Scudder, so Earth
is effectively cut off from just about all space travel and the
other planets.  Has anyone ever figured out what kind of a forest
all of his branching timelines make up, or has he ever done so
himself?  (Before he started making them reentrant, of course.)

pH

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 86 01:46:00 GMT
From: mcomp!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Heinlein Future History

  One bit of Heinlein trivia.  There was a discussion of the "Future
History" stories a while back that just reached my site.  There were
a couple of lists of "all" the F-H stories -- except one.
  When the "Heinlein History" chart first appeared in the May 1941
issue of _Astounding_Science_Fiction_ the second story on the chart
was "... And He Built a Crooked House".  Its connection to the rest
of the F-H is certainly not great but neither is it any worse than
"Life-Line" (or a number of the other stories that were grafted into
the F-H to fill the books in the early 1950's) in this regard.
  So, is AHBaCH a "Future History" story or not?

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 86 04:56:59 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines (_Friday_)

>  wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu writes:
>>     It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier
>> short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the
>> title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think).
>> You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen.
>
>    Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling
>Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through
>Walls".

    Well, yeah, but the "Gulf"-_Friday_ timeline and the _The
Rolling Stones_-_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ timeline are only
brought together in _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_; there was no
indication of any connection between the two timelines until that
book came out.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 21:31:04 GMT
From: vrdxhq!mws@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: Re: RAH multiverses

   Also, look at the names of the colony worlds mentioned in both:
the only one I remember off hand is Fiddler's Green, but there were
several worlds I beleive that were both on the Space Liner's route
in Friday, and were mentioned in TCWWTW.

Mike Stalnaker
seismo!vrdxhq!mws

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 15:41:53 GMT
From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Herbert books

The books WHIPPING STAR and THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT, by Frank Herbert,
are set in the universe of the ConSentiency, and feature a character
named Jorj X. McKie, a "Saboteur Extraordinary" of the Bureau of
Sabotage. Are there any other works by Herbert set in that universe,
using the races he has created that people that environment, or that
feature this character? If there are, is there any particular order
to them? (DOSADI is a sequel to WHIPPING STAR, by the way.)

(If there are not, does anyone know if any other writer has tried
setting works in this universe? Also, as far as I can determine,
there is no relationship between this universe and that of the DUNE
books. Does any such link actually exist? [Perhaps one is the far
future of the other?])

Will Martin

UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-smoke!wmartin  or
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 14:44:09 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL

jimb@ism780 writes:
>> FOOTFALL is a biggie and I only have 23 years left till
>> retirement. I don't have much time left for mind candy and there
>> are at least half a dozen Elmore Leonard books waiting under my
>> bed.
>
>Mind candy it is, of the cotton candy variety.  A ho-hum plot with
>lots and lots of cardboard characters -- three or four are actually
>interesting.

   That is very interesting:-) They would be very interested to hear
that you think they are cardboard! Most of the characters in
FOOTFALL are real people!(names changed to protect the ??) I even
know some of them myself.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 20:13:01 GMT
From: nicmad!brown@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tripods TV Seris

sds5044@ritcv.UUCP (Steven D. Smith) writes:

>1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or Tripods II?

Both.  Actually season 1 and 2.  They are only called 'The Tripods'.

>2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the
>   river leading to the great city.  What will become of Fritz
>   still in the city?

That is at the end of the second season or book two: 'The City Of
Gold & Lead'

>3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written?

That part I don't know.  The book series is currently in reprint and
I haven't gotten a copy yet.

>4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance
>   to talk to Julius?

We will never know, unless we read the book.

>5. Can  anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends?  Will the
>   Tripods be destroyed?

As it stands now, it seems as if we will never see the third book
turned into the series.  Good ole Michael Grade (remember him) as
decreed that it will not be finished.  So, the only way we will know
how it ends is to read the book.

ihnp4|harvard!uwvax|topaz!uwvax|seismo!uwvax|decvax}!nicmad!brown

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 06:49:00 GMT
From: brahms!jablow@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Who again?

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>I've always assumed that the Doctor was single and that his first
>companion, his "granddaughter" was actually another, probably
>unrelated, younger Time Lord, who posed as his granddaughter to
>explain their relative ages to the Earth people they were living
>with.

Actually, the semi-official word from the show is that Susan *is*
the Doctor's granddaughter.  In fact, one idea for the show that was
never filmed was that the Doctor's wife and children were killed in
a disaster, and in fact they originally intended to have the Doctor
be a refugee from the destruction of his home planet, just like what
happened to Jor-el (or is that Kal-el?) to cause him to leave
Krypton.  Also, the Master was originally intended to be the
Doctor's brother.  But if you want to get the last word, you'll have
to wait until THE THIRTEEN DOCTORS is filmed. :-)

>In fact, have we seen anything to indicate that Gallifreyans have
>an institution such as marriage?  The only indication at all that I
>can think of is Andred and Lela, and, Lela being alien, I'm not
>sure that that tells us anything about Time Lords.

Well, Susan married a human at the end of THE DALEK INVASION OF
EARTH, so there is some precedent for this.  Certainly we haven't
seen two Gallifreyans married yet though the actors who played them
may have been married for a short time.  (Incidentally, Patrick
Troughton (2nd Doctor) has been married for a long time to Jean
Marsh (Sara Kingdom).  I wonder if Jean felt nostalgic to be
fighting robots again in RETURN TO OZ?)

Actually, this may be another reason why the Doctor left Gallifrey.
After all, Gallifreyans don't feel much; most Time Lords are
dispassionate spectators.  This doesn't make for good marriages.
Who knows what the Doctor does with his companions?  At least in
private; this is a children's show.

>And, who know how Time Lords reproduce?

We can assume this rarely comes up.  After all, a Time Lord can live
for an amazingly long time, if he takes care of himself and stays
away from Sontarans.  Also, considering that Time Lords can stop
their hearts by will (and then restart them!), we can assume that
they don't need contreceptives.

By the way, what do you think Tegan did after she ran away from the
Doctor in RESURRECTION OF THE DALEKS?  After all, she had no job to
go back to.  Do you think she ran to a phone booth and dialed up
Sarah Jane?

Respectfully,
Eric Robert Jablow
MSRI
ucbvax!brahms!jablow

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 19:19:51 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_bjab@caip.rutgers.edu (Jessica A Browner)
Subject: Re: Who again?

> Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's brother.
> How else to explain two extremely capable (but not always
> competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one another
> in, but always fail.

  What do you mean by how else you can explain it?  It *is*
possible, you know, for two completely unrelated people to have
similar abilties.  Do you also think that Sherlock Holmes and
Professor Moriarity were brothers?

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 23:16:29 GMT
From: oliveb!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barb Jernigan)
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

From: pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
> ...The point you make about not wanting or needing Joyce, Kafka,
> Montaigne, or such like, during your leisure time is exactly
> what's wrong with so-called "great literature."  The stuff is so
> stodgy and incomprehensible that it cannot survive outside the
> sterile atmosphere of the classroom.

On the other hand, the truly great literature stands despite its
label.  It combines Meaning with Entertainment, to be savored, yea,
even enjoyed.  Some people really do read Joyce for kicks.  I find
Dostoevsky entertaining in small doses.  Karen Blixen (alias Isaak
Dineson) is also very entertaining.  And then there's the great Bard
himself, Will Shakespeare.

It is a saddening trend to equate incomprehensible with greatness.
(I don't understand a word, therefore it must be great literature --
feh!  baloney!  ptoui!)  Truly great literature transcends all this
-- tying the reader into something greater, challenging on many
levels, yet still entertaining (though some great literature does
not withstand/transcend the passage of time to become Great
Literature) -- for the lesson/meaning given in entertainment more
often sticks.

Shakespeare was a Hack!  An "Upstart Crow" composing plays at the
speed of his pen.  Yet he is considered Great -- now.

Perhaps it is only Time that decides what is great literature -- but
I contend, and I contend heartily, that "literature" and
"entertainment" are NOT mutually exclusive.

Now I'd best get off the soap box, the suds are making my shoes
slippery.

Happy reading!

Barb

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 21:26:26 GMT
From: k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: Re: the absolutely positively hopefuly real origin of
Subject: filksong

>The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC.
                                                      ^^^^^^

For the ignorant among us, what is this?  National Association of
Science Fiction I?????? C????????

Kathy
(Mail to k@mit-eddie.UUCP
or kay@MIT-XX.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 86 16:25:09 edt
From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Filk
Cc: 6103104%pucc@ucbvax

>The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC.

No way, Jose. The first NASFIC happened in 1975; the term "filksong"
was in common use when I went to my first SF convention in 1973.
(NASFIC=North American Science FIction (or Fiction Interim)
Convention, held when the Worldcon goes out of North America; up
through Heicon (Heidelberg, 1970) a non-NA Worldcon simply
interrupted the rotation of the three NA zones instead of replacing
the zone whose turn it was.) I've seen references from older filkers
to use of the term in the early 60's.

PS "The Horsetamer's Daughter" is by Leslie Fish (words and music),
who was filking before she knew what it was called (she had an album
called -"Folk Songs for People What Ain't Even Been Born Yet"-, cut
I think when she was a closet Trekkie). Easily the best overall
filker, although there are better composers, sometimes lyricists as
good, and many better singers. Also old enough and has wide enough
experience to come up with some real weirdies---she sang a new one,
"Carmen Miranda's Haunting Space Station Three", at Balticon, where
my former officemate asked me "Who's Carmen Miranda?"

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 86 15:53:13 GMT
From: wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Copyright-page info

Is there a legal requirement for giving any information about past
printing history on the copyright page of a book? Often, you will
see a notice such as: "Portions of this novel appeared previously in
Dead Frog Magazine under the title of 'The Bubbling Axolotl',
copyright The Amphibian Publishers, 1983" or the like. But is
providing such data required by any legal rules? Or is it done only
in certain circumstances, and what determines those?

I ask this inspired by recently reading the novel by Norman Spinrad,
THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE. There was nothing on the copyright page of
the book I read (a paperback) to indicate a previous publishing in
other forms or media, but I am next to positive that I had already
read this in a shorter form (perhaps a novella or novelette), and I
think it won one of the awards in that original form. Or am I just
the victim of decomposing brain cells and was this piece of fiction
really only ever a novel?

Will Martin

UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-smoke!wmartin  or
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 16:27:46 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: On "erbs"
From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

  Bard Bloom asks about the word "erb". I don't know if it's the
same thing, but L. Frank Baum commented in the sixth book (The
Emerald City of Oz) that the Phanfasms were Erbs, the most terrible
and evil of all magic spirits. Does this fit?

Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 May 86 1147-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #129
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 24 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Brin & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                    Footfall & A Survey,
            Films - The New James Bond,
            Television - Tripods (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Gargleblasters & A Request &
                    Literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1986 16:21:25 PDT
Subject: Apprentice Adept series
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu ("Cutter John" Griffith)
>I am a big fan of the Apprentice Adept series, and think it is one
>of the best sf/fantasy trilogies ever published.  Opposing views
>can be sent to /dev/null, where they will be treated with
>appropriate respect.

Sorry, you can't shut off the inevitable responses to a 'best ever'
claim by directing them to the bit bucket!  Especially when I marked
the ground first!

Perhaps I shortchanged the Apprentice Adept books in my first
posting; I was already into a very long statement and merely
remarked on the worst of the flaws, the one that most severely
detracted from my enjoyment of the books.  I do recognize the vivid
imagery, the decent story-line/plotting, and some other good points.
But Anthony drove me absolutely bananas whenever Stile got
depressed...poor Stile was always short, his whole life, always
short, his whole life, always short, his whole life, through three
whole books! grrr.  The man found it almost impossible to be honest
with the women in his life; he lied to and manipulated Sheen and
Neesa (he felt guilty, sure, but he kept right on doing it).  So as
a protaganist I found him melodramatic, insecure, dishonest, and
still an innocent goody-goody.  Useless.

So: the series has its points.  But sorry, the flaws were
responsible in part for driving me completely away from anything by
Anthony, and this series certainly won't make it onto MY best series
list.

Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 23:54:54 GMT
From: mtgzz!dls@caip.rutgers.edu (d.l.skran)
Subject: Thor meets Captain America

The July F&SF has a story by David Brin(Startide Rising) titled

"Thor Meets Captain America"

which I suggest to all and sundry, especially those with an interest
in comics.

Perhaps surprisingly, the story is pretty good.

This is not the marvel mythos, but Brin's own, and frankly, I look
forward to more stories set in this alternative past, one in which
Thor, Loki, and a host of others meet someone who may(or may not) be
Captain America, but who is certainly a living legend.

Dale

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 14:16:10 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's Timelines (_Friday_)

>    Well, yeah, but the "Gulf"-_Friday_ timeline and the _The
>Rolling Stones_-_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ timeline are only
>brought together in _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_; there was no
>indication of any connection between the two timelines until that
>book came out.

I believe the "Gulf"-_Friday_ timeline also contains _Starman
Jones_, judging from the names (and comparatively small number) of
planets visited: Botany Bay, Fiddler's Green, etc.

Also, did you notice he tried to merge _Stranger in a Strange Land_
with these other timelines by having Campbell/Ames want to ask Jubal
Harshaw about "all those stories about the man from Mars."  Sorry,
but that doesn't work: the first person on the moon (_Cat_, and thus
presumably _Friday_ and "Gulf") was Neil Armstrong, whereas Larkin
et al., employees of General Atomics (?) were credited as first in
_Stranger_, hence the "Larkin Decision" etc.

S. Luke Jones
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 14:34:50 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

Jon Leech (jon@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!jon) writes:
>    Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling
>Stones", and (at least initially) "The Cat Who Walks Through
>Walls". It's possible that "Red Planet" and "Podkayne of Mars" are
>also in this universe (I recall a tenuous connection in "The
>Rolling Stones", but it's been a long time since I read any of
>them).

The link between Podkayne, Red Planet, and The Rolling Stones is
probably just the Mars described by Heinlein.  Lowell "Buster"
Stone's "Flat Cat" is a lot like Jim-Marlowe's "Bouncer" Willis, but
we all know that Willis is much more than a Flat Cat.  Note that the
Mars in these 1950's Juveniles is much closer to that of the 1940's
"Future History" than it is to current belief.  Podkayne of Mars
really talks as much about Venus as Mars, and its Venus is quite
similar to the one in the Future History and Between Planets, and
Space Cadet.

S. Luke Jones
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 86 11:42 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Footfall - Long with Mild Spoilers!

I am a true Niven and Pournelle fan.  I have all their
collaborations, which include a few someone didn't mention...

The Mote in God's Eye   Definitively the best first contact book!
Inferno                 Dante look out.  Hell revisited.  Funny!
Lucifer's Hammer        The best Irwin Allen disaster book ever.
Oath of Fealty          Intriguing questions of morality and
                        technology.
Footfall                The best invasion of Earth I have read.

Footfall SPOILERS!!!!!

I just finished reading Footfall in two marathon sessions, and I
loved it.  I thought the entire thing was well done, as usual for
Niven and Pournelle.  There were a few things I wasn't quite clear
on.  Since the snouts could drop rocks within 15 feet of a moving
semi, how in the world did we get those space shuttles up into
space?  Did they go up on Michael, and if so, how did they get from
Florida to Bellingham without being bombarded?

I think the survivalists were placed in B'ham for two reasons; to
get the plot into Bellingham and to take out Roger the reporter
after he learns about Project Michael.  Aside from that, I am sure
that there are plenty of people who would react that way.
Survivalism is a definite trend in today's society.  Are there any
survivalists out there?

And as for Bellingham, I was going to Western Washington University
when Niven and Pournelle attended our SF club's convention.  It was
a great con, in stark contrast to the previous ones that no one came
to because they didn't know where Bellingham was.  Once Niven and
Pournelle said they would come a whole slew (do writers come in
slews or is there a special word for them?) of SF writers showed up.
It was amazing.  Turns out the whole reason N&P decided to come was
so that they could see what B'ham was like for to blast it to
smithereens with a thousand nukes.  Impolite of them to do that, but
B'ham is a small price to pay for the destruction of the snouts.

And contrary to what they say, Bellingham is a very nice little
college town that used to be heavy into lumber before the Japanese
took over.  It has gorgeous mountains, rivers and forests.  Stop in
and visit on your way to Expo in Vancouver.  See where they built
the ship.  And be sure to take Chuckanut Drive and see the San Juan
Islands.  They are gorgeous!  But enough, I'll leave the rest for
the Tourbots.

I agree that the most innovative part of the book was the herd
mentality of the snouts.  They really had a hard time grasping the
human way of thinking, whereas we got an insight to them much
quicker.  Not necessarily a given, but from the assumptions laid
down it worked.  I also liked the Predessors, which were never
clearly identified.  It seems they were similar to the Thrint and
Tnuctipin that appear in Niven's Known Space series, except that
they managed to destroy themselves and not each other.  By leaving
their "blocks" of information for the snouts to use and learn from,
they paved the way for an immature culture to take to the stars.
Unfortunately for both sides, this did not allow them to learn many
of the things we have learned (all those enrolled in the school of
hard knocks, please raise your hands).  It was said by the
herdmaster that they had anticipated that this was the case when
they were travelling.  Something about "familiarity with their own
technology" instead of learning from the Predessors.

All in all, I give the book 3 out of 4 stars.  I enjoyed it
immensely, and it was not nearly as obvious as Lucifer's Hammer was.
The aliens were unique, as far as I can remember.  Does anyone know
of other stories involving intelligent herd societies?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 86 11:08:15 PDT
From: woody@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (William E. Woody)
Subject: re: Footfall

  After finishing reading _Footfall_ about a week and a half ago (in
a reading sprint which was not good for my classwork!) I felt that
this was one of the best novels of this type I have read in a long
time.  And *no*, I didn't think the ending was bad; quite the
contrary, too many novels drag out the ending to the point where I
simply give up reading.
  Granted, _Footfall_ may have left some loose ends lying around,
but after the conclusion of the story, it's rather predictable how
those ends will be tied together.

  I _HATE_ stories that drag.  They should cut clean, and not wear
us out.  The reward ceremony of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo at the
very end of _Star_Wars was *booooooring!*; the "Epilog" of
_Crime_And_Punishment_ was a waste of good paper.

  Thank goodness that _Footfall_ Did Not Suffer This Fate!

William Woody
NET  Woody%Romeo@Hamlet.Caltech.Edu
USNAIL  1-54 Lloyd, Caltech / Pasadena, CA 91126

------------------------------

Date: 22-May-1986 1703
From: brendan@gigi.dec.com  (From the terminal of Brendan E. Boelke)
Subject: Another survey?

   I don't usually answer surveys, and here I am potentialy starting
one - oh well.

   I was looking for something to re-read the other night, and
skipped over a couple of series because I had tried to re-read them
before, but COULDN'T.  No matter how much I tried I couldn't get
into them again.  So, my question (survey?) is, how many of you
folks out there have read a book or series, loved it while reading
it, couldn't wait for the next one, and, for one reason or another,
just can't re-read it?  And why?  (These should be books/series that
you would give at least a ** on the -**** to ****+ scale ).  As for
me, my two were:

   LOTR - I just couldn't get into it.  I was getting very, very
bored waiting for the plot to start.  I found myself wishing they
had CLIF notes on the books.

   Thomas Covenent - This was (is??) one of my favorite series.  I
eagerly awaited each new book.  When I started to reread Lord Fouls
Bane, it just wasn't there.  Already knowing the ending (5+ books
away!) just made the series to tough to read again.  I think if I
had struggled it out, I would have been on anti-depressant drugs
before the end.

   Does anyone else ever run into this?  BTW, there are many, many
books that I have read multiple times, so it is not a usual thing
for me not to be able to re-read something.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 08:22:47 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Findlay Light vs Pierce Brosnan

>For some time now there have been postings definitively stating
>that Findlay Light (sp?)  was to be the new James Bond in "The
>Living Daylights."  However, the following article is from today's
>(5/18/86) Boston Globe, reprinted without permission.
>
>The new Bond

Lucky guess, but I said in an earlier posting that 1) it was still
up in the air and 2) that it would probably be Brosnan.  It stands
to reason.  Audiences have already shown they like Brosnan while
Light could turn out to be another George Lazenby.  The producers
were probably pulling for Brosnan all along.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1986 08:11:56 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: The Tripods

    The Tripods series (1 & 2) was shown on PBS station WTTW in
Chicago a few months ago. The last episode I saw ended when Will and
Beanpole returned to the White Mountains, only to find the outpost
at the foot of the Mountain a charred, smoking ruin. In the novels,
Fritz eventually escapes from the City, but as the next series isn't
out yet (to my knowledge) we can't be sure. The TV series contains
loads of alterations and additions, such as:

    1) The whole deal with the Vichot family in the "White
    Mountains" part. This was not in the novel (I think they
    inserted it to provide some romantic interest for the boys).

    2) A great deal of "The City of Gold and Lead" (The city was
    simply called the City of Gold in the series). There are so many
    differences that I can't recall them all at the moment, but a
    few notable examples:

         a) The Tripods planet was not named in the novel, but in
         the series Will's Master calls their planet "Trion".
         (Shades of Turlough!)

         b) Those girls Will and Beanpole meet at the Games (more
         romantic interest!)

         c) The Masters mode of transportation: in the book they
         used wedge-shaped cars (or something like that); on TV, the
         Masters cruised around in spinning pyramids of energy that
         could even pass through solids walls!

         d) The idea of the Pool of Fire itself: in the novel the
         Pool was the Master's power source, but in the series a
         human-built nuclear reactor provided the power, while the
         Pool was some sort of computer databank.

         e) The slave disco: This was the only thing that I found
         totally ludicrous and out of place in the whole series so
         far.

    Theres's more, but I'll leave it up to others on the net to
point out additional differences between the television series and
the novels. And yes, the Tripods and their cities are destroyed
eventually.

Carlo Samson
U09862 at uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1986 13:09:05 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: PGGB

    A year's supply of Qualactin Hypermint Extract goes to the
person who can come up with a NON-alcoholic version of the famed
Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster.

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ UICVM

------------------------------

Date: Thu 22 May 86 14:46:47-EDT
From: Scott Schneider
Subject: Aspiring Author's Request

   Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished author
can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short novel
(sf, of course)?  I've already shown it to all the friends and
professors I could find (and revised it accordingly) over the last
two years and am anxious to send it out to meet the big, bad world.

Thanks in advance,
Scott
WCCS.S-SCHNEIDER%Kla.Weslyn@Wesleyan.Bitnet
(after June 1st: WESALUM.S-SCHNIEDER%Kla.Weslyn@Wesleyan.Bitnet )

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1986 16:32:15 PDT
Subject: Literature and categories
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>
To: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu

While I'm not in total agreement, your points were well enough made
that I consider them valid differences of opinion and I know why we
think differently.  You did slide in a reference to a certain work
which you labeled as literature and which you also seemed to
consider to be outside the realm of SF (which I read as 'Speculative
Fiction').  I think that Mark Helprin's "Winter's Tale" is both
great literature and SF.  All I'm saying is that I hope you don't
draw too strict a line between the great lit and "the sf ghetto" as
it is still too often miscalled.

Your flaming at the clod was both called for and appreciated!

Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 May 86 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #130
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Herbert (2 msgs) & Laumer &
                   Personal Favorites & Funny SF &
                   Footfall (2 msgs) & Computer Simulations,
           Films - Hidden Fortress
           Television - Tripods & Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 03:58:50 GMT
From: sysdes!drw@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Blue adept question-- A few forgoten talents

> I believe White's power was over cold and she could make Ice
> things.

White's power was the use of symbols (I think), there's also the
Translucent Adept as well ... the one in the sea (power over sea
creatures perchance?)

Dave Wilson,
uucp :  ...!ukc!sysdes!drw

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 07:17:50 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Herbert books

wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes:
>The books WHIPPING STAR and THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT, by Frank
>Herbert, are set in the universe of the ConSentiency, and feature a
>character named Jorj X. McKie, a "Saboteur Extraordinary" of the
>Bureau of Sabotage. Are there any other works by Herbert set in
>that universe, using the races he has created that people that
>environment, or that feature this character? If there are, is there
>any particular order to them? (DOSADI is a sequel to WHIPPING STAR,
>by the way.)
>
>(If there are not, does anyone know if any other writer has tried
>setting works in this universe? Also, as far as I can determine,
>there is no relationship between this universe and that of the DUNE
>books. Does any such link actually exist? [Perhaps one is the far
>future of the other?])

I had been wondering about other stories about McKie myself.  I did
find one more, a short story in World(s) of Frank Herbert.  I
believe it was called The Thoughtful Saboteur, or Tactful, or
something like that. It is about McKie involved in a trial, a Pan
Spechi one, I think. I believe it comes before the other two stories
because of some stuff mentioned about Bildoon, who was the head of
the comission for which McKie worked, or something like that. There
is no mention made of the (sorry I've forgetten what they're called)
beings from the other two books, you know, like Fanny Mae.

I don't know which came first, these two novels, or Heretics of Dune
and Chapterhouse: Dune, but I suspect that the latter came
afterwards, since they are fairly recent. Maybe I am thinking of
some other of his stories, but I noticed that the chairdogs which
appear in the McKie books started appearing in the Dune books. I
think that this was probably not meant to be a connection between
the two universes, but just an invention of one universe which he
felt the other probably would have had too.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp
nathan@mit-xx.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 15:17:26 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Re: Frank Herberts use of vacuum tubes in _Under_Pressure_...

Frank has commited the ultimate sin in writing technlogy books. He
tries too hard to describe HOW the things work, instead of just
describing what they do. My candidate for all time worst book by a
major S-F author has to be _Destination_Void_ by Herbert for the
same reason. It sounds like he took an old IBM manual, underlined
all the technical words, and then made an effort to use all of them
whether he knew what they meant or not. I found the effect quite
nauseating. For a counter example, Asimovs Robots all use positronic
(I think thats it) brains. His descriptions are all high level and
stand up without sounding too silly even 25 or whatever years later.

Burch Seymour  ...mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 86 11:14:18 GMT
From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Super User)
Subject: Retief and the Pangalactic Pageant of Pulchritude by Keith
Subject: Laumer

                ****** DO NOT BUY THIS BOOK *******

This book (as published in paperback) is a gross rip-off - the title
story is 77 pages long (and is OK)but the rest of the book (~150) is
simply a reprint of Retief's Ransom (which most Laumer fans will
have).  The only mention of this fact is in very small letters on
the back cover and even flipping through the book will not tell you
that this is the case as all the pages are headed "Retief and the
Pan....."  Do not get burnt like I was......

Lindsay F. Marshall, Computing Lab.,
U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK
ARPA  : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa
JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
UUCP  : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 04:01:17 GMT
From: 6080626@pucc.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: My Personal Favourites

Well, I guess I will throw in my two cents or so. What I am talking
about is my favourite science fiction and fantasy series. I guess
the sort of consensus (this is one of those consensi which no one
person agrees with) is that "The Lord of the Rings" is the best
fantasy series and "Foundation" is the best sf series. Well, I'm not
sure.

I agree that "The Lord of the Rings" is great. It's got what you
need; great writing and great ideas. However there are other series
(what do you call them, anyway? n-logies?) which I like a lot. "The
Chronicles of Amber" by Roger Zelazny is a good story, with great
ideas, and some attempt made to define the universe in which it is
set (something that Tolkien did the best, in fact I guess he created
the universe and then just told stories about it), and it is written
in a sort of colloquial (sp?) manner which is fun to read. Actually
that is sort of what is neat, it's this fantasy novel but it's
written like a detective story or something. Another good one is
"The Wizard of Earthsea" trilogy by Ursula LeGuin. This is written
really well and the story and world are interesting, but below the
level of Tolkien on both counts. Which brings me to my favourite
fantasy trilogy, "Riddle of Stars" by Patricia McKillip. I haven't
heard a lot of talk about this, but I really like it. It is
beautifully written, the only fantasy books I have read that were
written as well as Tolkien, and the story is fascinating. Also the
world is well-defined, and the entire world is used as a setting,
unlike some books which have a big map in front and then have all
the action take place on one island off in the corner. Plus there's
a little love story thrown in and some plot twists just for kicks.
Great stuff, really great.
     Moving on to sf, I confess I didn't like the Foundation trilogy
(I haven't tried Foundation's edge yet). I only read it so my sister
would stop threatening to tell me where the second Foundation was,
and although I found some parts of the first book interesting, on
the whole I was pretty disappointed. Anyway, forgetting that, one
(octology?) that I like was the Pern books by Anne McCaffrey,
although mostly because of the concept, not the actual writing.
Actually the science fiction books I was supposed to like (like the
Lensman series) I hated, while the ones I was supposed to hate (like
Dhalgren, what a book, loved it, everyone else in the world hates
it, I don't care) I liked. Where was I? Oh yes, my favourite series
(I know everyone is dying to know) is the Demon Princes quintology
by Jack Vance. These stories are just neat, the names of characters
are neat, the locales are neat, the main character is a pretty neat,
the plot is neat, the many ways that people are killed are pretty
neat, the obligatory scientifically-impossible-but-we-need-it-for-
the-story-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-mode-of-space-travel is
neat, etc. Plus the last book is probably the best sf book I have
read.  Well, I'm sure no one is reading this by now, but anyway,
does anyone have any comments? Especially on McKillip and Vance...

Adam Barr

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 17:28:11 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf

First, I might as well add my nomination for funny books. It's
_The_Eye_in_the_Sky_ by P.K. Dick.  It's also about as weird a book
as I've read, but the premise is interesting and the whole thing
hangs together.

Second, shouldn't all of these suggestions be sent as mail to the
requestor who, being a good network soul, would then post a summary?
I mean I must have read 25 suggestions for Xanth and Myth stories.
Please no return flames.. its just a rhetorical question.

Burch Seymour
Gould C.S.D. at   ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 86 06:31:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Footfall

>        That is very interesting:-) They would be very interested
> to hear that you think they are cardboard! Most of the characters
> in FOOTFALL are real people!(names changed to protect the ??) I
> even know some of them myself.

People in reality and their portrayal in fiction are two different
kettles of fish, if you'll pardon the mangled imagery.  The fact
that FOOTFALL's characters are based on real characters means
nothing -- the *roman a clef* has been around for a long time.  What
is significant is that the characters are *rendered* so flat and
lifelessly.  They are, for the most part, cardboard contrivances
dragged across the stage for the author's purposes, lacking a depth
and feeling of their own.  Fooey.

Look, the play JULIUS CAESAR is based on real characters.  Have you
never seen (or conceived of) wooden, flat performances?  I have no
doubt that someone could >gag< write a story filled with people on
this net: chuq, the Leepers, Barb Jernigan, me, you, etc., and have
us read dull and flat, completely unlike the colorful, interesting
characters we are.  You understand, no?  < :-; for those who need
it>.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 86 14:54:47 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Footfall

JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>I questioned the purpose of the Survivalist group. I gather
>Pournelle may be a quazi/pseudo survivalist, thus he may
>responsible for those sections.  The whole survivalist compound
>seemed outside of the story line.

        Well, I hardly call him a *quazi/pseudo* survivalist! He is
the real thing! He is the leader of a local Survivalist
group(probably the one in the book!).

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 86 08:09:38 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: sentient being in computer simulation

     Sorry, the original article seems to have expired.  Someone
asked for a reference to some story in which contact with some world
was made through a computer simulation.  Various responses have been
given, but there's one book which has been notable in its absence.
This is The Planiverse, by Dewdney (reference at end of article).
In this, a program is written to simulate a very simplistic
two-dimensional universe, but the program starts going a bit past
its programming....I'd better stop here to avoid having to back up
and put a spoiler warning at the top.

     Recommended.

Dewdney, A. K. (Alexander Keewatin).
  The Planiverse: explorations in a two-dimensional universe
ISBN 0-7710-2742-7

der Mouse
USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
     philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
        mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
ARPAnet: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 22:14:47 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Star Wars

HIDDEN FORTRESS is out on cassette and I have been meaning to write
a review of it.  It actually is not that close to STAR WARS.  It is
mostly about the attempts to return a willful princess and her gold
to her own country (from enemy territory).  I don't think she is
ever really captured by the enemy.  The main characters are two
humorous soldiers, a powerful stranger who protects the princess,
and the princess, herself.  The stranger is played by Toshiro
Mifune.  I am pretty sure one of the guardians of the princess early
in the film is Takashi Shimura, though I didn't see his name in the
credits.  (Shimura, whose name is pretty much unknown in this
country, was the lead samurai in SEVEN SAMURAI, the dying official
in IKIRU, and the scientist in a number of Toho's science fiction
monster films.)

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 86 13:19:29 -0200
From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
To: sds5044@ritcv.uucp
Subject: Re: Tripods TV Series

>       I have some questons concerning Tripods.
> 1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or TrIpods II?
> 2. The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the
> river leading to the great city.  What will become of Fritz still
> in the city?
> 3. Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written?
> 4. Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance
> to talk to Julius?
> 5. Can  anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends?  Will the
> Tripods be destroyed?

To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly
like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some of
them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the heros
from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper to
Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me).

I definitely recommend, even to those who watched the series, to buy
and read the trilogy; the books are "The White Mountains", "The City
of Gold and Lead", and "The Pool of Fire", by John Christopher; your
description in question 2 sounds like the end of "The City of Gold
and Lead".

The rest of this posting is a spoiler for those who intend to read
"The Pool of Fire".

The answer to the 4th question is: yes; "The Pool of Fire" starts
with Will and Jumper back in the white mountains, after an
uneventful journey back from the great city. Fritz arrives a few
weeks later, after he also manages to escape.

Are the Tripods destroyed? Yes, they are. Towards the end of the
war, Henry talks to Will about his concern that, after defeating the
Tripods, men will start to fight each other again; he is killed
shortly after, and later events prove him right. The story ends with
Will, Fritz and Jumper deciding to continue fighting together, this
time for a more difficult goal - achieving world peace.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:          eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:  eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:            ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 21:53:47 GMT
From: 3comvax!michaelm@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Who again?

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's brother.
>How else to explain two extremely capable (but not always
>competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one another
>in, but always fail.
>
>They might have done something with this, but the actor who played
>the master died.

Why should it matter if the actor playing the Master died?  That's
the beauty of the rationale of the Doctor (and other time lords)
regenerating -- they can always replace anyone!

Also, remember Tom Baker in *Logopolis* saying of the Master and
himself: "In many ways we have the *same* mind."  (Although, I
believe he implied this was because they were both time lords.)

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
(408) 970-1835
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 May 86 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #131
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asimov (3 msgs) &
                    Eisenstein & Codex Seraphinianus &
                    Herd Animals & Footfall,
            Television - Tripods,
            Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation &
                    The Orson Welles Cinema & 
                    SF as Good Literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 03:57:58 GMT
From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Cutter John)
Subject: Re: Apprentice Adept series

From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>
>Perhaps I shortchanged the Apprentice Adept books in my first
>posting; But Anthony drove me absolutely bananas whenever Stile got
>depressed...  poor Stile was always short, his whole life, always
>short, his whole life, always short, his whole life, through three
>whole books! grrr.

I want to address this comment right away.  It's obvious that you
are a person who is at least 5'9" or 5'10".  Speaking as a person
who is 5'6" and 20 years old with all my friends over 5'10", I know
where Anthony is coming from.  Oh sure, Stile's case is a little
exaggerated compared to mine, but it is true that height can
seriously affect a person, especially someone with low self-esteem
(it's also obvious that Stile has little self-esteem before he
encounters Phaze, except in regards to his Gaming skill).
Personally, I think Anthony himself must be short for him to
emphasize this fact.  As for "through three books", he mainly deals
with it in the first, Split Infinity.  By the third, Stile's pretty
happy with himself as he is and says so.  People who have had
something all their lives generally don't know what it's like not
having that something.

>The man found it almost impossible to be honest with the women in
>his life; he lied to and manipulated Sheen and Neesa (he felt
>guilty, sure, but he kept right on doing it).  So as a protaganist
>I found him melodramatic, insecure, dishonest, and still an
>innocent goody-goody.  Useless.

Wait a minute.  He's a dishonest goody-goody?  That doesn't make
much sense.  The one quality that Anthony stresses in this series is
HONESTY.  Stile doesn't lie.  He says so, the machines say so, Hulk
says so,.....  It's true that he keeps some of the truth to himself
occasionally, but it's a fact that the world would be a living hell
if everyone told the entire truth all of the time.  As for using
Neysa (NOT Neesa) and Sheen, he establishes his relationship with
them right away.  As soon as he realizes Sheen is a robot, he
explains where she stands with him, and he or re-evaluates their
relationship when he meets the Lady Blue.  The same goes for Neysa.

>So: the series has its points.  But sorry, the flaws were
>responsible in part for driving me completely away from anything by
>Anthony, and this series certainly won't make it onto MY best
>series list.

I think the reason that you saw "flaws" that I didn't see is that
since I enjoyed the books, I read and re-read them more thoroughly.
I HAVE read them all around thirty times each.

Since this series is well past the review stage, and since this
discussion seems to have a small audience, I would like to suggest
that this discussion be kept off the net from now on (unless there
is a great mass of unspoken readers???).  Flames or comments to me.

Jim Griffith
griffith@pavepaws.UUCP or
griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu

P.S. Douglas M. Olson  - are you related to weemba@brahms?

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 12:04:38 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Re: I Want FUNNY f & sf

>  .... Piers Anthony's "Prosthro Plus" if you can find it.

Good news for those who mentioned this Anthony book was hard to get.
It has been reprinted by Tor books, June 1986 date inside the cover.
I just bought it last night, so I can't say how funny it is yet.

Burch Seymour
Gould C.S.D. at   ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 86 16:16:11 -0200
From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Asimov's "Death of a Foy"

After hearing so many pro-and-con comments about it, I can't resist
telling you about the special meaning this story has for Israeli SF
fans. It represents a landmark in the history of editorial
imcompetence.

Sometime in '81, an Israeli SF magazine published - get this - a
Hebrew translation of "Death of a Foy". In the introduction, the
editors said that it is Asimov's latest story (which was, I think,
accurate) and added: "we didn't get the point of this story, so any
reader who got it is requested to write to us".

Needless to say, the story left all readers (including myself)
completely baffled. Only about 3 years later, when I mentioned the
story to a friend who has read it in English, I was told that the
story ends with a pun.

I later found the story in English (I think it was in the collection
"The Winds of Change"), and I did like the pun; but I guess for
Israelis this story will always be funny whether you like puns or
not.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:          eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:  eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:            ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 86 15:47:36 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: NOT SO HUMUROUS SF

>Asimov's DEATH OF A FOY.

Just one point about all the discussion on this story:

   WHAT'S THE PUN????

I've never read the story, and I can't seem to find it anywhere!
Being a lover of puns (good and especially bad!), I'd like to see
the gem that's caused all this. Can anyone out there help me?

Thanks in advance.
Jim.

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 16:59:40 GMT
From: frog!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woods, Software)
Subject: Re: Another Foundation novel

>>Isaac Asimov's 6th Foundation book, "Foundation and Earth", will
>>be published this fall.
>SIXTH book?  *SIXTH*?

I thought it was four also.  What are the names of the fourth and
fifth?

> Really, it's very simple.  You discover that the character wasn't
> *really* deciding the fate of the galaxy, and find out who is.

I rather thought that would be it.  The ending of the last one, what
with its continual revelations that one group was being secretly
controlled by someone else, reminded me of the Illuminatus! trilogy
by Robert Anton Wilson (I wonder if Asimov is an Illuminatus ?-)
)...

John Woods,
Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101
...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 86 14:09:54 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: BORN TO EXILE by Phyllis Eisenstein (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "Disowned by his family as a witch-child, the minstrel Alaric had
  long trod his path alone, armed with his lute, his songs, and his
  power to move magically from place to place.

  When he came upon the grandeur of Castle Royale, he had no idea
  that there he would find temptation, and within temptation,
  danger.  Bedazzled by the unparalleled beauty of Princess Solinde,
  caught in the dark intrigues of Medron the magician, Alaric would
  know the still darker exile of the sinister Inn of the Black Swan.
  There he would meet the ultimate test that could end his exile --
  or end his life."

Though it looks like a novel, this book actually consists of five
stories, all involving the same main character, Alaric. They are in
chronological order, but, as is stated near the copyright notice,
"portions of this novel appeared originally in issues of THE
MAGAZINE OF F & SF". As a novel, the book suffers from having
originally been short stories. Each story has its own development
and climax, so the book as a whole doesn't have either.

The stories are all pretty good. Alaric is a teenager throughout,
and he uses his magical power as little as possible since "witches"
are severely persecuted. The time period seems to be late
renaissance, though the planet isn't mentioned; this book is once of
fantasy and isn't concerned with other worlds or aliens.  Further,
it has more to do with Alaric's interactions with other people than
with magic or adventure.

The last story in the book is the most interesting, and I would like
to have seen it developed into an entire book. The ending of that
story is very unsatisfactory, however; I got the impression that the
author hurriedly finished it to meet a deadline.

I give the book 2.5 stars (out of 4.0: good, but plan to trade it
in).  On the jacket, there's a quote by Jerry Pournelle saying this
is the best fantasy novel he's read this year (1978?). I wonder if
he wrote that in January.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 03:10:23 GMT
From: 6056626@pucc.BITNET (Jonathan Baker)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus

A few weeks ago, I saw some correspondence on a book called Codex
Seraphinianus, by the Italian architect Luigi Serafini.  It is not
in _Books in Print_, so can someone tell me how or where to look for
it in the New York-New Jersey area?  Even a publisher's name and/or
location would be helpful -- it looks like an ideal present for a
couple who are getting married in a month or so.  (yes they are very
odd folk) Send me mail, preferably, or post to the net if that
doesn't work.

Jon Baker
6056626@pucc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 04:20:33 GMT
From: gsmith@cartan (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Humans vs Herd Aliens

>I agree that the most innovative part of the book was the herd
>mentality of the snouts.  They really had a hard time grasping the
>human way of thinking, whereas we got an insight to them much
>quicker.

>The aliens were unique, as far as I can remember.  Does anyone know
>of other stories involving intelligent herd societies?

   This may seem like a strange comparison, but what about "West of
Eden" by Harry Harrison? The Yilane, like the Snouts, war with
humans, have a superior technology but lose anyway, and are much
more of a herd society.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 10:17:26 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Footfall - Long with Mild Spoilers!

As long as we're talking about Footfall:

Arthur C. Clarke, perhaps in _Profiles of the Future_, was lamenting
about the fact that man hadn't domesticated any new animals in
recorded history.  He suggested that it might be nice to genetically
tinker with an elephant, shrinking it a bit, adding a little more
intelligence, maybe increasing the prehensibility of the trunk.
Does this sound a bit familiar?

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 04:42:12 GMT
From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Tripods TV Series

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
>To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly
>like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some of
>them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the heros
>from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper to
>Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me).

I do not doubt that there are differences, but while I (not having a
television, nor any great desire to watch one) have not seen the
video adaptation, I did read at least the first book of the series.
It was perhaps 10 years ago, but I distinctly remember Beanpole.  At
the time I did not realise `Jean-Paul' was French, and could not see
how one turned that into `Beanpole'.  (Though I think I remember
reading it spelled `zhan-pole'.  Did not the explanation come later,
when the two met the third? ---if indeed that was the sequence of
events; as I said, it has been a long time.)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 20:01:42 GMT
From: watmath!mwtilden@caip.rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware)
Subject: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated

Hi.

You've probably seen one or two postings to the net about Japanese
animation but so far as I know, nobody's posted a general summary of
what it's all about. Here's an attempt to fill that void and
hopefully swell our ranks.

For those of you not familiar, Japanese TV is apparently almost 30%
"cartoons". However, unlike American anime [animation] the plots,
artwork and character development are directed at mature audiences
(some are *very* [ahem!]  mature). The themes and plots follow
genuine conflicts for survival or culture/power clashes. (it's *not*
all just a barrage of hyper-intelligent children thwarting the plans
of meglomaniac adults with impossible machinery)

The shows range from single episode plots to 150 episode series on
every subject from hard sci-fi to surreal fantasy to modern day
drama.  There are comedy series, anti-hero series and towards the
low end, the all too familiar VOLTRON and TRANSFORMER shows directed
strictly at the kiddies.  There are also movies galore with a
similar spectrum (You might want to check out WARRIORS OF THE WIND
in your local video store. It's one of the only movies translated
with the original soundtrack. Just great!).

Most of the good stuff is still in Japanese but check out ROBOTECH
on your local TV networks (usually carried by the independents) if
you haven't done so already. It's three series that have been
reasonably translated and blended into one plot. Good hard sci-fi
with character development, great styling, covert violence and
everything else they seem to have cut out of Bugs Bunny nowadays.
Most of the *nasty* stuff never made it past the american censors
but original copies are around and I was impressed with their
candor. ROBOTECH is nothing when compared to the good Jap series
like HEAVY METAL L'GAIM (MARK II) or ZETA-ZETA GUNDAM but it's a
start.  With enough interest, there will be more soon.

You can get a look at some of these shows by attending sci-fi
conventions or by contacting your local chapter of the Cartoon
Fantasy Organization.  Give it a try, it's quality stuff.

Anybody interested? Anybody speak Japanese and interested? I've got
some shows I'd like you to watch so I can subtitle and distribute.

We'll meet again....

Mark Tilden
Hardware Design Lab. M.F.C.F
University of Waterloo.
Canada, N2L-3G1
work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457, home: 888-7111
UUCP: ..!{utzoo,decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!mwtilden
ARPA: mwtilden%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
CSNET: mwtilden%watmath@waterloo.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 86 14:55 EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA>
Subject: The Orson Welles Cinema
To: film@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA

The Orson Welles Cinema in Cambridge has just had a major fire.  I
counted 17 fire trucks, including one from neighboring Sommerville.
Most of the smoke seemed to be from the rear of the cinema, in the
vicinity of cinemas #2 & 3, but a substantial amount of smoke was
also coming out of the front door as well.

I hope this does not lead to its demise; this area has lost too many
repertoire theatres already.  (Remember Cinema 733, and the Kenmore
Square?  The Central Square?)  There's no place that could replace
its particular home in the heart of Boston movie fans.  It would be
particularly unfortunate if this meant the end of the annual SF
marathons, which have run for 11 years now.

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 20:24:17 GMT
From: ci-dandelion!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Fulton)
Subject: looking for comments on why SF can be "good" literature

For the fun of it I'm trying to put together a list of references
and personal observations on why science fiction is not necessarily
"bad" literature.  In other words, why do you think that SF can be
worthwhile reading (beyond the "because I like it" answer, although
that is often mine)?

Please _mail_ any thoughts to me and I will post a summary.

Many thanks,
Jim Fulton
ARPA:  jim@ATHENA.MIT.EDU, fulton@EDDIE.MIT.EDU
UUCP:  jim@ci-dandelion.UUCP
       (...!{mit-eddie,talcott,ulowell}!ci-dandelion!jim)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 May 86 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #132
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:

        Books - Adams & Garrett & Heinlein & Herbert &
                L. Neil Smith & Book Recommendations (2 msgs) &
                Funny Sf,
        Television - Tripods,
        Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation & Aspiring Authors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 19:34:38 GMT
From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray)
Subject: HGG V

Can anyone send me information on the fifth _Hitchhiker's_ book, or
new books by Douglas Adams, including publisher, date, and price?
If you can, please do.

Randy Murray
cbosgd!rtm

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 03:22:57 GMT
From: hodghead@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Bill Hodghead)
Subject: Re: Randall Garrett

To answer your question: No, Randall Garrett is not (to the best of
my knowledge) dead. He is VERY ILL.  From what I understood, he is
rarely "conscious", but when he is, he and Vicki get together and
brainstorm on the books. However the dedication of "River Wall"
certainly does lead one to think that she is now writing the books
alone.  Perhaps these "conscious" times are now too rare for them to
(excuse my phrasing) "waste" on writing.  May I suggest a query to
their publishers might yield more information.  I hope you will
find better news from someone else.  I am very sorry for this loss
to the S.F. world.

Eden Rain

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 20:01:58 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: net.heinlein (lotr strikes back)

But it does miss the whole point of Heinlein's recent work to try to
box things into neat series.  Since the fifties and the juvies, RAH
has been writing stories that (if you insist on consistency) would
have to be regarded as inhabiting closely related universes -- very
closely related, for they all come from the same Author's brain.
There is _no_ series other than those books identified as "future
history," up to and including TEFL.  The apparent connections with
the books from TNOTB on are a head game, and some of the folks in
this net don't realize they've been used for pingpong balls.

Hey:  RAH is too good a writer to put in boxes like that.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 05:16:39 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Science in SF (was Re: Off-mark predictions)

bseymour@houligan.UUCP (Burch Seymour) writes:
>Frank [Herbert] has commited the ultimate sin in writing technology
>books. He tries too hard to describe HOW the things work, instead
>of just describing what they do. My candidate for all time worst
>book by a major S-F author has to be _Destination_Void_ by Herbert

I agree that the descriptions of the various computer parts, etc.,
from Destination: Void were quite unneeded, to say the least. He
also wrote two sequels to this, The Jesus Incident and The Lazarus
Effect (I think...  I may have the title confused), and these don't
contain any of that technical nonsense, since they are no longer
about the (?spoiler begin?)  construction/enhancement of a computer.
(spoiler end) I think that these were much more interesting than the
original.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp
nathan@mit-xx.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 17:31:04 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: L. Neil Smith vs. Jane Fonda

In a recent posting on net.sf-lovers, someone complained that L.
Neil Smith had used the anagram "Edna Yanof" as the name of a
villainess, and wondered what Mr. Smith "had against" Ms.
Fonda/Yanof.

This reaction, taken with the comments of the majority of
net-landers in various groups, confirms my suspicion that most
netters are (1) under the quarter- century mark in age, and (2)
woefully ignorant of recent history.

Being neither (1) nor (2), I sigh and take it upon myself to
enlighten the original questioner and any others who have not
pressed the 'n' key:

Ms. Fonda, during the late unpleasantness in Vietnam, took a trip to
Hanoi and there made propaganda broadcasts for the communists.  She
posed, smiling, on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun.  She
requested to interview American prisoners in the "Hanoi Hilton"
prison camp, and when they refused, the prisoners were beaten.

Upon her return to the U. S., Ms. Fonda never apologized for these
actions, has never shown any change of heart, nor ever commented
upon the millions of boat people who obviously did not share her
views.

Her greatest moment came, when she was on the Johhny Carson show
after the communists violated our peace treaty with them, and
conquered the South as they had sworn not to do after our
withdrawal.  Mr. Carson, in his inimitable way, asked this woman :
"How do you feel, now that your side has been proven right?" (sic,
sick!)

And now, years later, this communist sympathizer is making millions
off the fat of Americans.  (Of course, socialist countries have
very, very few fat people, right?)  She has run down this country,
supported its enemies, yet makes money using the capitalist system.
Her lowbrow husband, one of the Chicago Seven generation of yuppie
terrorists, continues to use this money to accomplish her ends by
the means of running for office in California.

Does this give any of you a hint as to why L. Neil Smith, other
libertarians, other conservatives, and just plain ethical folks,
want to throw up when Ms. Fonda is accorded wealth and honors by the
society that she hates?

End of lesson.

arlan andrews, Analog irregular; libertarian; one who would not
watch a Jane Fonda movie other than one of her funeral.

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 01:21:09 GMT
From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee)
Subject: SF book recommendations summary: long

Here are the SF authors (and I am sorry I used "sci-fi" before: I
just didn't know better--I've never been a fan, just a reader) that
were recommended to me.  They are sorted by frequency of
recommendation, and then alphabetically by author's last name.
Where specific book were mentioned I have included them in
parenthesis:

[8]
Orson Scott Card (Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead)
[6]
David Brin  (Startide Rising, Postman)
[5]
Samuel Delaney (Triton, Nova, Dahlgren, The Fall of the Towers)
Harlan Ellison
[4]
Diane Duane (The Door into Fire, The Door into Shadow)
George R.R. Martin (Song for Lya, Sandkings, The Armageddon Rag,
   Fevre Dream)
Vonda McIntyre (Dreamsnake, Exile Waiting)
[3]
John Brunner (The Sheep Look Up, Stand on Zanzibar, Shockwave Rider,
   The Jagged Orbit)
Steven Brust (To Reign in Hell, Jhereg, Yendi, Brokedown Palace)
Philip K Dick (Martian Time-Slip, A Scanner Darkly, Ubik)
John Gardner (Grendel)
Donald Kingsbury (Courtship Rite)
Cordwainer Smith (The Best of Cordwainer Smith, Norstrilla)
Mary Stewart (The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills)
Theodore Sturgeon
[2]
Poul Anderson (The Broken Sword, A Knight of Ghosts
   and Shadows, High Crusade, Orion shall Rise,
   The Merman's children),
Isaac Asimov (Foundation Trilogy)
William Gibson (Neuromancer)
R.A. Lafferty (900 Grandmothers)
Tanith Lee (Night's Master, Silver Metal Lover)
Stanslaw Lem (Cyberiad, His Master's Voice,The Chain of Chance)
R.A.McAvoy (The Damiano Trilogy)
Robin McKinley (Beauty, The Blue Sword, Hero and the Crown)
Spider Robinson (Stardance, Mindkiller, Calahan's cross-time saloon)
Robert Sheckley
James Tiptree, Jr.
Jack Vance (The Eyes of the Overworld, The Dying Earth,
   The Language of Pao)
Vernor Vinge  (The Peace War)
[1]
Brian Aldiss
Robert Asprin (the "Myth" books)
Peter Beagle (The Last Unicorn)
Greg Bear (Blood Music)
Gregory Benford (Timescape)
Alfred Bester (Golem 100)
Terry Brook (Sword of Shannara, Elfstones)
Frederick Brown (What Mad Universe)
Octavia Butler (Wild Seed, Kindred)
Earnest Callenback (Ectopia)
Italo Calvino (Cosmicomics, If on a Winter Night A Traveller,
   Adam One Afternoon)
Jack Chalker (Well World, And the Devil will Drag You Under,
   Four Lords of the Diamond)
Richard Cowper (Kuldesak)
Lord Dunsany
Suzette Haden Elgin (Native Tongue)
Jack Finney (Time After Time)
Barbra Hambly
Mark Helprin (The Winter's Tale, Refiners Fire)
James P Hogan (Two Faces of Tomorrow, Code of the Lifemaker)
P.C. Hodgell (Godstalk)
Phyllis Ann Karr
Fritz Leiber (Conjure Wife)
C.S. Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia)
Barry Longyear (Enemy Mine)
Mallory
Dennis L. McKiernan (The Iron Tower, The Silver Call)
Michael Moorcock (Dancers at the End of Time)
Walter Miller (His Masters Voice)
Alexi Panshin (Star Well, The Thurb Revolution, Masque World)
Fredrick Pohl (Gateway)
Tim Powers (The Anubis Gates)
Marta Randall (Journey, Dangerous Games)
Tony Reamy (San Diego Lightfoot Sue)
Keith Roberts (Pavane)
Kim Stanley (The Wild Shore)
Joanna Russ ((Extra)Ordinary People)
Fred Saberhagen (Empire of the East, The Dracula Tape)
Pamela Sargent (Cloned Lives)
Bob Shaw (Vertigo, Night Walk, The Ceres Solution, Ground Zero Man,
   Orbitsville)
Alastair Sheckley (The Status Civilization,
   The Alchemical Marriage of...)
Norman Spinrad (The Void Captain's Tale)
Olaf Stapeledon
Jane Yolen
H.G. Wells
Connie Willis (Fire Watch)
John Wyndham (Day of the Triffids)

The Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy (sorry, don't know author)

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 04:37:22 GMT
From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee)
Subject: Re: SF book recommendations summary: long

About that SF authors list I just posted: remember that these
authors are not on the list because I listed in them in my request
as authors I already loved: J.R.R. Tolkien, Kathryn Kurtz, Patricia
McKillup, David Eddings, Marion Zimmer Bradley, John Varley, Joe
Haldeman, Joan D Vinge, Ursula Le Guin, Kate Wilhelm, Frank Herbert,
Zelazny, Gene Wolfe, and C.J.Cherryh.

And these the authors were not on the list because I listed them in
the request as authors I hated: Heinlein, Stephen Donaldson, Piers
Anthony, E.R. Eddison, and Mervyn Peake.

Thanks again to all those people who responded to my request.

Tracy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 86 17:07:05 EDT
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Wayne Barber)
Subject: Funny SF

I am surprised no one has mentioned _City of Baraboo_ by Barry
Longyear.  I thought these were very funny stories about a
space-traveling circus.  The second book, _Elephant Song_, doesn't
have that same comedic style, but the third book, _Circus World_, is
also funny.

I'd also like to put in a vote for _Bill, the Galactic Hero_.  If
you've ever read the Foundation books or Heinlein or old space opera
stuff, you must read this.  I couldn't get into _Star Smashers of
the Galaxy Rangers_ at all.  It was too much like Heinlein.  Perfect
People facing Terrible Situations and coming up with Perfect
Solutions.  By the way, both of these last two books are by Harry
Harrison.

Wayne Barber
BITNET:  Barber@Portland

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 18:04:04 GMT
From: tellab5!barth@caip.rutgers.edu (Barth Richards)
Subject: Re: Tripods TV Seris

sds5044@ritcv.UUCP (Steven D. Smith) writes:

>       I have some questons concerning Tripods.
>1. Is the series on public TV presently, Tripods I or TrIpods II?

Both the first and second series have been run on the PBS station
here in Chicago (WTTW, Ch. 11).

>2.  The last episode I saw was Beanpole dragging Will out of the
>    river leading to the great city.  What will become of Fritz still
>    in the city?

That is not disclosed until the third part of the trilogy, which
apparently, will never be made into a tv series. (AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!)

Read the books!!!

>3.  Is this series exactly as the trilogy when it was written?

The episodes that I saw from the first series indicated to me that
the BBC was following the original first book (THE WHITE MOUNTAINS)
almost to the letter. (I think. It's been a long time since I read
the books.)

The second series followed the basic plot of the second book (THE
CITY OF LEAD AND GOLD). In many places, it almost exactly followed
the book (most of the journey to the games), in others, the script
writers took huge liberties and mucked about with the story.

In the book, the slaves' life in the Master's city was much
different. The temperature was very high and the force of gravity
was artificially increased, both to accommodate the Master's
comfort.

There were no "black guards" in the city, no women slaves (at least
none that were kept alive. I only remember the bodies in the "Hall
of Beauty.")

There was no vast network of passages and rooms with
human-breathable atmosphere connecting slaves' quarters, rest areas,
and work stations.  The slaves had small, isolated chambers within
their master's apartment with breathable air, a food dispenser, and
plumbing.

There were also "public" way stations or rest areas within the city
for slaves with similar accommodations. Slaves who worked in
factories, instead of for a particular Master, seemed to live in
chambers associated with the factory they worked in.

There were CERTIANLY *NO* *DISCOS*!! (sheez!)

The Cognasi were purely the invention of the BBC script writers.

The Masters did not build their city around a 20th century atomic
power station. The masters had their own, more advanced, means of
generating power, which the slaves were not allowed to even begin to
understand, much less operate for the masters.

All in all, the original book painted a much bleaker life for slaves
in the city. The sense of isolation felt by Will and Fritz in the
city was greatly diminished by the BBC's attempt to "dress up" the
original story. This is especially irritating, because they left out
a lot of things from the book that would have been just as easy to
do (maybe even easier) than some of the garbage that was added.

>4.  Now that Will and Beanpole are together, will they get a chance
>    to talk to Julius?

The second series ended where the second book did (I think), with
Will and Beanpole returning to the White Mountains and finding the
original resitance headquarters abandoned. (Actually, the tv series
showed that it had been attacked, and was deserted.) The third book
of the trilogy (THE POOL OF FIRE) tells of what happens after that.

Though the books are somewhat difficult to get a hold of, and were
written for a grade school/jr. high reading level, I still suggest
that you read the trilogy, and therefore, I decline from posting any
spoilers here.

>5.  Can  anyone drop me a hint about how this all ends?

No. (See above.)

> Will the Tripods be destroyed?

(See above.)

I know, I know. Call me an asshole, but I think anyone who's
interested should read the books. They're great. (As are John
Christopher's other sci-fi trilogies.)

If anyone has any info on where to obtain copies of the trilogy
please post, as I know that others on the net might be interested
(Steven Smith for one :-), me for another).

Barth Richards
Tellabs, Inc.
Lisle, IL

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 86 18:06:54 GMT
From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated

mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes:
>For those of you not familiar, Japanese TV is apparently almost 30%
>"cartoons".

   Having recently lived in Japan for four months, and having
watched a fair amount (certainly too much) of TV, I can say
reasonably certainly that the amount of "cartoons" is pretty small.
I would guess that less than 10% is animated. Almost all the stuff
on TV is live drama/comedy/ movies/similar fare. They also don't
have cartoons on saturday mornings :-(.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 22:24:09 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Tukla Oly, Pakrat)
Subject: Re: Aspiring Author's Request

>From: Scott Schneider
>   Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished author
>can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short novel
>(sf, of course)?  I've already shown it to all the friends and
>professors I could find (and revised it accordingly) over the last
>two years and am anxious to send it out to meet the big, bad world.

    Go to your local library and look for a book called "The 1986
Writers Market". It should have a list of publishers in all
categories. I personally think you should try Isaac Asimov's Science
Fiction Magazine or Amazing stories as your first places of
submission. They handle new writers very well.  And your work, at
the length you describe, is a novella.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 May 86 0808-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #133
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 May 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:

                Books - Calvino & Herbert & Varley &
                        Footfall & Smart Herds,
                Films - Kamikaze '89,
                Television - Star Trek & Doctor Who,
                Miscellaneous - The Orson Welles Cinema &
                        Aspiring Authors & Non-alcoholic Drinks &
                        Great Literature (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 04:42:05 GMT
From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Invisible Cities

On net.recomendation, I read Calvino's Invisible Cities.  While I
quite enjoyed it, I am fairly sure I missed a fair amount (like,
say, the point).  Could some of the net.literature.gurus explain
what is going on, what Calvino is trying to do, etc?

Thank you.
Soren Petersen

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 20:45:58 GMT
From: hropus!jin@caip.rutgers.edu (Jerry Natowitz)
Subject: Re: Herbert books

> I had been wondering about other stories about McKie myself.  I
> did find one more, a short story in World(s) of Frank Herbert.  I
> believe it was called The Thoughtful Saboteur, or Tactful, or
> something like that. It is about McKie involved in a trial, a Pan
> Spechi one, I think. I believe it comes before the other two
> stories because of some stuff mentioned about Bildoon, who was the
> head of the comission for which McKie worked, or something like
> that. There is no mention made of the (sorry I've forgotten what
> they're called) beings from the other two books, you know, like
> Fanny Mae.

The story is The Tactful Saboteur, the collection is The Worlds of
Frank Herbert.  The collection is copyrighted 1971, the stories from
1958 to 1967 (no individual copyrights).

ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jin

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 19:50:12 GMT
From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: John Varley

Does anyone know what John Varley is up to these days? This is the
current list of books I know he has written (and their original
titles):

   The Ophiuchi Hotline
   The Persistence of Vision
   The Barbie Murders
   Titan
   Wizard
   Demon
   Millenium

Ever since he started writing novels (instead of collections of
short stories), I have been very disappointed with Varley. Although
Ophiuchi Hotline was a novel, I still feel it is better than any of
his recent "epics" such as the Titan-Wizard-Demon exercise in
boredom. Even Millenium is not very good, although it shows some
creativity.

The absolute standout continues to be The Persistence of Vision,
perhaps the most significant collection of short stories by a single
SF author to have been published since 1975. In my humble opinion,
everything else Varley has written pales in comparison to the
beautiful and delicate stories in that collection.

Does anyone know what his current plans are? What's next from
Varley's pen?

Stuart Cracraft
trwrb!pyrla!cracraft

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 86 00:00:17 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>They would be very interested to hear that you think they are
>cardboard! Most of the characters in FOOTFALL are real
>people!(names changed to protect the ??) I even know some of them
>myself.

Just because a character in a book is based on a real live person
doesn't prevent it from being two-dimensional.  A real person is
much more complex than any representation on paper can be; and an
inadequate representation will result in a cardboard character.
This is in no way a reflection on the person represented.

Myself, I would describe the characterisation in _Footfall_ as
mediocre -- it wasn't bad, but it doesn't stand out.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 86 08:54:10 EDT
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jim White)
Subject: Smart Herds

Jon Pugh writes re: FOOTFALL;
>Does anyone know of other stories involving intelligent herd
>societies?

How about Niven's Known space characters, the Pearsons Puppeteers ?
They define the term. To the point of calling a lone Puppeteer
insane, and their leader, the Hindmost.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 22:35:44 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: KAMIKAZE '89

                            KAMIKAZE '89
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  German import film gives a confused
     look at the year 1989 with a hard-to-follow story.  Some
     interesting images.

     An unlikely formula that seems to be the basis of a number of
science fiction films since ALPHAVILLE is the futuristic detective
story.  The story is part mystery, part travelogue visit to a future
society.  In addition to ALPHAVILLE, we have LAST DAYS OF MAN ON
EARTH, RUNAWAY, BLADERUNNER, and the 1982 German KAMIKAZE '89.

     It is 1989.  All is in order.  Pollution and dangerous drugs
are just bad memories.  Poverty and starvation have been eradicated.
Germany is the richest and most powerful country in the world and
Germany is virtually ruled by "The Concern."  "The Concern" is a
megalithic conglomerate that (among other things) runs Germany's
media.  98% of Germany tunes in to see entertaining programs like
laughing contests and to read comic strips in which the Blue Panther
fights the evil organization Krysmopompas.  Krysmopompas may or may
not be a real organization but the few discontents of society have
taken its name to be their battle cry.

     Somebody, perhaps Krysmopompas, has made a bomb threat on the
Concern's offices and Police Chief Inspector Jansen (played by art
film director Rainer Werner Fassbinder) is called in to investigate.
Jansen is a consummate slob in his leopard-spotted leisure suits.
Even his car and the handle of his gun are decorated in leopardskin.
Jansen's adventures in the pop-art near-future world are more
confusing than enlightening.  And any understanding of the plot that
the viewer gleans are hard-won victories over a film style intended
to obscure rather than to enlighten.  Still, every once in a while
director Wolf Gremm gives the viewer a tantalizing look at a sort of
pop-art future with millions anesthetized by the totally banal media
that the Concern serves up.  And we see Jansen's frustration with
the banal society and his retreat into images of adventure and the
untamed.

     KAMIKAZE '89 is hardly the most entertaining film available in
video stores.  It is a hard film to watch and nearly impossible to
follow.  But stick with it.  There is more to this than meets the
eye.  I would give it a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.  Maybe if the story
were better told it would have been rated higher.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 86 10:05:40 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Flat cats

>Lowell "Buster" Stone's "Flat Cat" is a lot like Jim-Marlowe's
>"Bouncer" Willis....

In a fast aside....

The producers of Star Trek decided they had to clear it with
Heinlein before filming The Trouble With Tribbles....seems the
Tribbles were too close to the Cats.

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 86 16:49:05 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Who's the Master?  :-)

michaelm@3comvax.UUCP writes:
>Why should it matter if the actor playing the Master died?  That's
>the beauty of the rationale of the Doctor (and other time lords)
>regenerating -- they can always replace anyone!

Unless someone in charge at the studio decides that no actor can
successfully play the part, or some such.  The Master got tabled.

>Also, remember Tom Baker in *Logopolis* saying of the Master and
>himself: "In many ways we have the *same* mind."  (Although, I
>believe he implied this was because they were both time lords.)

I don't know episode names for late Davison, but -- the episode
where Turlough leaves.  The Master says something about ``you
wouldn't do this to your--'' -- curtain.  My sister and I (both avid
Who'ers) decided the next word just HAD to be ``brother''.

Brandon
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 86 12:14 EDT
From: William M. York <York@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: The Orson Welles Cinema
To: RWK@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA, film@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA

From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@SCRC-YUKON.ARPA>
>The Orson Welles Cinema in Cambridge has just had a major fire.  I
>hope this does not lead to its demise; this area has lost too many
>repertoire theatres already.

It said in the paper that they were committed to reopening the
theater as soon as possible.  It will clearly be a while.
Apparently the fire started in the popcorn popper.  I hope that this
does not lead to the demise of fresh popcorn!

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 17:09:15 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Aspiring Author's Request

From: Scott Schneider
>        Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished
>author can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short
>novel (sf, of course)?  I've already shown it to all the friends
>and professors I could find (and revised it accordingly) over the
>last two years and am anxious to send it out to meet the big, bad
>world.

Send it out.  Type it up nicely, double spaced, wide margins,
preferably in pica (10-per-inch) but NOT NOT NOT in troff or TeX
typesetting (I don't know why, but editors hate it) and start
sending it to editors.  Always include an SASE.

(If you can get photocopying at a decent rate, then send it out with
only a #10 SASE and a note that says "please don't bother to return
the manuscript."  It is probably cheaper to pay the photocopying
than the postage.)

I'm always told "don't bother with a cover letter," but I always
send one, I can't resist.  Don't bother to say anything more than
"Here's my story, which I'm offering at your usual rates" unless you
know the editor personally, becuase they throw the letters away
immediately anyway.

Once it goes in the mail, try to forget about it for six weeks to
two months: doesn't matter what they say their response time is
(unless you send it to Twilight Zone, which takes MONTHS and MONTHS)
give them at least two months.  If you haven't heard from them by
then, send them a nice note that says something to the effect of
"did you-all get my story title so-and-so?  Have you considered it?"

Having put it in the mail, start writing something else: you'll
learn a helluva sight more if you write a dozen stories with some of
them still having flaws than if you keep re-writing a single 20Kword
story for two years.

Not that I've sold anything, but I've gotten *really* good at
sending the stories out.

By the way -- sorry for posting this to the net, but I couldn't find
a path that didn't flake out somewhere.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 86 08:36 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Non-alcoholic PGGBs?

How in the world do you have your brains smashed out by a lemon
wrapped around a gold brick, without any alcohol?  It seems
impossible to me.  Perhaps some green food coloring and water with a
drop of peppermint extract for flavor?

Those Jupiter Sunrises are so nice I can get my girlfriend to drink
them and she's the closest thing to being a teetotaller without
actually being one that there is on this planet.  Yummy.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 86 01:59:36 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

> Shakespeare was a Hack!  An "Upstart Crow" composing plays at the
> speed of his pen.  Yet he is considered Great -- now.

Discuss this please.  Two points here seem open to me:

1 - I thought Shakespeare was as well known in his own day as he
    is today as one of the greatest writers in English, although the
    audiences at the time may have favoured, say, his tragedies less
    than we usually do now.

2 - Why a "Hack"?  Two other men (at least) are renowned for having
    churned out works at a rate scarcely possible for a human being:
    Franz Josef Haydn and, particularly, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
    Time and again their works were masterpieces, acknowledged so by
    the public at the time, and ever since.  So it seems to me that
    speed alone does not make one a hack.  What, therefore, leads
    you to this conclusion about Shakespeare?

> It is a saddening trend to equate incomprehensible with greatness.
> (I don't understand a word, therefore it must be great literature
> -- feh!  baloney!  ptoui!)  Truly great literature transcends all
> this -- tying the reader into something greater, challenging on
> many levels, yet still entertaining (though some great literature
> does not withstand/transcend the passage of time to become Great
> Literature) -- for the lesson/meaning given in entertainment more
> often sticks.

Agreed completely!  If the simplified diet of which so much TV and
films consist continues to lead people into considering powerful
works as technical challenges to be overcome with gritted teeth and
determination, rather than incredible experiences to be delighted in
and marvelled at, it will do us all a terrible disservice.

Thank you,
Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 86 07:04:32 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Re: Literature and categories

>Ref: your recent flaming in SF-LOVERS:
>  All I'm saying is that I hope you don't draw too strict a
>line between the great lit and "the sf ghetto" as it is still too
>often miscalled.

Why do people insist that there is a "Science Fiction ghetto."  I
would say that the percentage of "Great Literature" (which I define
as literature which is still enjoyable and/or relevant in any
century) which comes from SF sources is equal to the amount of
'Great Literature' that comes from main stream. Sure 90% of all SF
is crap, but then again, 90% of *everything* is crap. (Qoute from
Theodore Sturgeon).

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 86 21:47:06 GMT
From: hammer!patcl@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes:
>In rare cases, I would even say that there are SF writers who
>approach 'literature' status: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the Sun"
>tetralogy and Samuel Delany's "Dhalgren" being the prime examples.
>But most SF does not approach contemporary literature in what you
>quaintly call 'hidden meaning'.
>
>...quick, easy, bright and entertaining, without making too much of
>a demand on your intellect, which describes most SF.  I'll bet you
>don't like Wolfe, do you?  *HE*, among all SF writers, may have
>produced the best literature.

I was just going to let this pass into ~/News/septictank when my BS
daemon went crazy at the mention of Gene Wolfe. It is appropriate
that krantz@csd2 should use Wolfe to support his views. Wolfe's
writing is either "literature" or it is boring dreck. I subscribe to
the latter interpretation. Yet, somehow, much writing that is
deliberately turgid and weighed down with excess static verbiage
(while short on real ideas) is termed by some to be "literature";
those who declare it so thereby feeling that they have raised
themselves to an intellectual plateau upon which they can feel
unique and especially insightful.  In my opinion, much of the
accepted demarcation of the "literature" domain rests on such a
basis. The determination of what is "great" writing is *entirely*
subjective (notwithstanding the pronouncements of the literary
establishement). There are no absolutes in this area, although there
will always be an abundance of people who expound as if there were
(especially among those calling themselves *critics*).

Pat Clancy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 86 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #134
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:

                Books - Ellison & Garrett & Varley &
                        Generation Ship Stories (2 msgs) &
                        Request for Author Information,
                Television - Tripods & Doctor Who &
                        Japanese Animation,
                Miscellaneous - Copyright Information &
                        Great Literature & Filksongs (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 01:55:54 GMT
From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: A Phone Conversation with Harlan Ellison

Fairly recently, I heard through LOCUS magazine of a horrible
10-year depression Harlan Ellison, one of my two or three favorite
SF authors, suffered through. I am no doctor, but I have read up on
the subject and decided to get up the temerity to give Harlan a call
and make a suggestion, in this case the reading of a book which I
thought might help him avoid future depressions now that the worst
of his seemed to be over.

Having heard bad rumors about people who have talked with Harlan and
his behavior, I went in with trepidation and called up his phone
number, but only his phone-answering machine responded.  I left my
message, consisting of my reporting of having heard about his
depression through the LOCUS article, and the name of the book I
recommended, along with my name and phone number.

A week or two later, I called up again, to confirm that he had
received the message. This time, the Enfants Terribles ... or should
I now say, the Monstre Sacre (indicating increased maturity)
answered the phone, and good ol' Harlan was a'speaking! Anyway, he
said, yes, he sufferred, but that it was purely a chemical
depression, caused by an imbalance of certain chemicals in the
brain, and that he didn't really need a book to help him out.  Fine.
No problem. Perhaps not as polite, but then when you figure how many
psycho calls he receives by being in the phone book and by being a
public personage, it wasn't too bad of a performance by him.

I complimented him on his writing and then we ended the
conversation. If you have something to tell him, give him a ring. If
you do, you should probably have something specific to ask or
comment about.

His phone number is (213) 271-9636.

Stuart Cracraft

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 04:21:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: re: the state of Randall Garrett's health

What I have heard -- AND CAN NOT VERIFY -- is that he has a
condition that is (or is similar to) advanced Alzheimer's.  This
does fit with other info. that I've seen, but it may not be
absolutely true.  I heard it at a con, but can't remember (oops!)
which one or who might have said it.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 17:01:45 GMT
From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: John Varley

cracraft@pyrla.UUCP (Stuart Cracraft) writes:
>Does anyone know what John Varley is up to these days?
>Does anyone know what his current plans are? What's next from
>Varley's pen?

   You will be happy to know that he has just come out with a new
book of short stories titled "Blue Champagne". However, it is
published by a small press called "Dark Harvest" and only in hard
back. If you really want a copy, you should probably find a
specialty store, or dealer (like Zeising, of Currey). I have no
idea when it will be available in paperback.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 86 02:49:03 GMT
From: wales@ucla-cs.ARPA (Rich Wales)
Subject: Generation-ship stories?

I would like to get as many pointers as possible to stories
involving "generation ships" (multi-generational, slower-than-light
space colonization efforts).

I am already aware of the following stories:

   PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES, by Harlan Ellison.  An outcast from a
   Puritanesque society discovers that his world is in fact part of
   a huge generation ship -- the crew of which died long ago in an
   unknown disaster.

   THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL (Star Trek novel), by David Gerrold.  The
   Enterprise discovers a generation ship whose society has been
   disrupted by civil war, and whose people have largely forgotten
   their origins.

   FOR THE WORLD IS HOLLOW AND I HAVE TOUCHED THE SKY (Star Trek
   episode).  The Enterprise discovers a generation ship controlled
   by a computer, sent out by an advanced (but now long-dead)
   civilization.  The people on board do not know they are on a
   ship, and in fact are forbidden by their computer-enforced social
   order from speculating on their origins.

   PROCYON'S PROMISE, by Michael McCollum.  A generation ship was
   sent out from Earth long before in search of faster-than-light
   travel; the descendants finally return, to an Earth which is not
   exactly prepared for them.

One common thread through many of these stories is that the
passengers don't realize they are on a ship at all.  The idea of
keeping the people on a generation ship in ignorance is one way of
handling (or, rather, avoiding) the psychological trauma of knowing
that you will spend the rest of your life in a spaceship.  THE
GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL suggests that its generation ship didn't start
out this way, but that things degenerated after a civil war (brought
on when some of the passengers wanted to choose a marginally
inhabitable planet for colonization).

A second idea is that the self-contained civilization in a
generation ship is inherently quite susceptible to any disruption;
that this fragility naturally leads to a closed, tightly regulated
society; and that such a dictatorial system is liable to create many
more problems than it might solve if a crisis actually does arise.

Anyway, I'm sure that other authors have explored the in's and out's
of life on a generation ship -- and I'd like to read more stories on
this theme.  Send me mail (to the address below if possible -- NOT
to the torturously long news path!), and I will summarize in a while
if I hear anything from anyone.

Rich Wales  UCLA Computer Science Department  +1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall  Los Angeles, California 90024  USA
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU     ...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 17:56:27 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Generation Ship Stories!

Don't forget Heinlein's classic: Orphans Of the Sky. (contains 2
novellas, Common Sense and Universe. Also *The Promised Land* by (I
think) Simak. His point was that while the ship was in flight, even
though the passengers knew that it was a generation ship going to
another planet, the planet became equivalent to paradise, the
"Promised Land Syndrome."

HAROLD FELD
BITNET: 6090617@PUCC  (preferably)
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 04:24:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: query: John Kessel, Joyce Thompson

Can anyone give me pointers to works by John Kessel and/or Joyce
Thompson?

I'm looking for a general description of the types of stories they
write, titles, date & place of publication.

Thanks much.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 86 02:11:27 -0700
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: Tripods

Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> writes:
>To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly
>like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some of
>them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the heros
>from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper to
>Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me).

Um, I haven't seen any of the TV shows, but don't you have this
backwards?  The French boy's name in the books was definitely
Jean-Paul, and they called him "Beanpole".  How is it in the TV
series?

I would like to know how they did "The City of Gold and Lead".  I
can't imagine them having the budget to do the story properly!

Peter Alfke
alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1986 07:27:49 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: The Private Life of Doctor Who

From: brahms!jablow@caip.rutgers.edu
>Who knows what the Doctor does with his companions?  At least in
>private; this is a children's show.

If it were just a children's show, would we be discussing it on the
net?  And I really don't think that the Doctor would do anything
unwholesome with his female companions. John Nathan-Turner once said
(in a Time magazine interview about Doctor Who--I can't recall the
issue) that "there's no hanky-panky in the TARDIS."

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 17:51:41 GMT
From: well!tenney@caip.rutgers.edu (Glenn S. Tenney)
Subject: Re: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated

Although not directly about animation, when I was in Japan I noticed
all the newstands selling these thick comic books (with the artwork
similar to their animation).  I bought a couple of these comic books
to take home for the kids.  I hadn't really looked at them 'til I
got home.  My wife and I were really amused to find that these are
definitely ADULT comic books (over an inch thick) and rather
explicit too.  Needless to say the kids would have enjoyed it (they
are teenagers), but we didn't give them the chance.

Glenn Tenney
UUCP: {hplabs,glacier,lll-crg,ihnp4!ptsfa}!well!tenney
ARPA: well!tenney@LLL-CRG.ARPA
Delphi and MCI Mail: TENNEY

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 21:41:22 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Copyright-page info

wmartin@brl-smoke.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes:
>Is there a legal requirement for giving any information about past
>printing history on the copyright page of a book? Often, you will
>see a notice such as: "Portions of this novel appeared previously
>in Dead Frog Magazine under the title of 'The Bubbling Axolotl',
>copyright The Amphibian Publishers, 1983" or the like. But is
>providing such data required by any legal rules? Or is it done only
>in certain circumstances, and what determines those?

I don't think there is a legal requirement for a copyright page at
all, let alone requirements for printing histories.  If you want to
protect the copyright to your book, there is a requirement to
prominently display a copyright notice somewhere, preferably at the
beginning of the book.  If you are using previously copyrighted
material which does not belong to you (as in the case you cite
above), you need permission to use the material, and frequently the
terms of that permission demand that an acknowledgement of the
original copyright holder be given.  The copyright page is a
convenient place to display this kind of information (but not
necessarily the *only* place -- "Forewords" and "Introductions" are
sometimes used as well), as well as Library of Congress and other
catalogue information.

Richard Hoffman
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 04:11:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

Now entering flame mode.

Viewing literary writing as being "deliberately turgid" and "weighed
down with excess static verbiage" (a pretty phrase, but what does it
*mean*?) is a nice mirror image of the attitudes of the pin-heads
who dismiss science and mathematics as a lot of obscure tom-foolery
on the grounds that they don't understand it.  To confess ignorance
is laudable, to boast of it is execrable.

Literary classics are those that have borne the tests of time,
recognized by readers of many times and cultures as works that
transcend any one given time and place and speak directly to the
universal (or near-universal) human condition.  More contemporary
works can be deemed "great literature" on the grounds of their
sharing this transcendent quality with the classics; whether they
are "great", of course, only time will tell, but significant
congruences between the essence of a contemporary work and a classic
would seem to be at least a reasonable basis for making the
comparison.

If you don't *understand* and don't want to make the effort to
learn, there are plenty of sitcoms and mini-series for you, as well
as plot-oriented pot-boilers to read, so quit squalling from your
playpen.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 23:58:47 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: the absolutely positively hopefuly real origin of
Subject: filksong

k@mit-eddie.UUCP (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>>The origin of the word filk dates back to a long ago NASFIC. The
>>words "Folk Songs" were misprinted on the program as "Filk Sings".
>>The rest is, of course, history.....

Nonsense.  The first NASFIC was held in the geologically recent
past, and filksinging is much older.  Can't any of you see a
humptian portmanteau word when you see one?  FILTHY FOLK SONG, such
as "Eskimo Nell" and "Barnacle Bill."  These and others were sung at
latenight con parties, and the word "filk" got attached to them
first, then to other songs sung at the same parties, and finally, by
a metonymy which escapes me, left the original songs and became
attached only to what are now called filksongs -- although please
note that such authorities as "The HopSFA Hymnal" include "Barnacle
Bill," "Eskimo Nell", "The B*st*rd King of England," and others in
their list of filksongs.

As to NASFIC, it is a convention held in North America to console
those who can't afford to go to WorldCon when it's held on another
continent.  (Does Europe have any similar cons when it's here, or in
Australia?)

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 86 08:16 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: filk
Cc: 6103104%pucc@ucbvax.ARPA

For best overall filker, Leslie Fish gets my hardy second place
vote.  Julia Ecklar wins hands down.

Julia easily has the best voice in filkdom (and, I think, the best
out of it, too) and has great talent as a composer.  But her
greatest talent lies in the way she makes her listeners think that
she's singing about her personal experiences, no matter what the
song's about.  When she sings "Daddy's Little Girl" based on Stephen
King's Firestarter, she can get a whole room full of people looking
nervously toward the fire exits.  A few years ago, I would have
granted that Leslie played a better twelve-string guitar, but
Julia's pretty nearly her rival there, too, now, and plays a great 6
string, as well.

For interested parties, Off Centaur Publications sells quite a
number of tapes, Julia's, Leslie's, Best Of tapes from various cons,
as well as music books.

Off Centaur Publications
P.O. Box 424
El Cerrito, CA  94530

They also have the following 60 minute tapes:

The Horse-Tamer's Daughter (on the theme of unusual women, sung by
Julia Ecklar)

Genesis (by Julia Ecklar, including several terrific Star Trek
songs, my favorite tape)

Minus Ten and Counting (songs of the space age, featuring Julia and
Leslie)

Brandywine (folk music, featuring Julia and Leslie)

A Wolfrider's Reflections(Julia does Elfquest)

Space Heros and Other Fools (Julia and Anne Harlan Prather)

Cold Iron (Leslie Fish sings Rudyard Kipling)

Skybound (Leslie Fish, includes all of the songs that were on "Folk
songs for folk . . ." plus some)

I have no connection with Off Centaur and have presented the above
information in an effort to spread the joy of filk, especially
Julia's filk, around.

Lisa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 86 0836-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #135
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 May 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 20:06:46 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms

daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes:
> Anyway, in "The Silmarillion" and other places, it says that
>Melkor (or Morgoth, as you prefer) created the Orcs by doing nasty
>things to captured Elves, whom he abducted from around Lake
>Cuivienen before the Valar found the Firstborn. As we all know,
>Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to Middle-Earth and all
>that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???*
> And what happens to a dead Orc? Does it go to a special section of
>the Halls Of Nienor (sp?) and get reborn later on, like Elves do (I
>think)?

   I had always assumed that Orcs were like Elves in being immortal
unless killed. Of course being so violent they would tend to get
killed alot sooner than Elves! Where do they go on death? I don't
know, perhaps they are expelled into the Outer Dark like Morgoth?

>       Food for thought: in "Return Of The King", two of the
>Mordor Orcs are overheard by Frodo and/or Sam discussing the
>upcoming war, and say something like "It'll be just like the bad
>old days". Does this mean
>   (a) The Battle Of The Five Armies at the end of "The
>       Hobbit". Most recent, but seems unlikely.
>   (b) The seige of Barad-Dur at the end of the Second Age by
>       Isildur and Co., at the time of the Last Alliance.
>   (c) The final battle outside Thangorodrim at the end of The
>       First Age; in which case those orcs have got a *looong*
>       memory.

   I would say either b) or c) since both were followed by periods
during which Orcs were outlaws and had a hard time staying alive. I
guess b) is most likely.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 86 20:16:57 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien "magic"

lkeber@ulowell.UUCP writes:
>S7YLF4%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>>Tolkien "magic" is often less apparent and specific than most
>>other fantasy magic.  The only specific magic I can think of are
>>Gandalf's fireworks and the invisibility the Ring confers.  The
>>other magic is much more ephemeral, consisting mostly of
>>animatistic forces.  In fact, some of the "magic" in Tolkien can
>>be likened to things we believe in, such as "charisma", "selling
>>power", etc.
>
>There are several other examples of magic in Tolkien's works. In
>LotR, there is Galadriel's magic mirror, and crystal. Also, the
>Palantirs, the Ring, and the Elvish swords which glow in the
>presense of Orcs. In The Silmarillion, Melian's defense of her
>forest, the Silmarils, and the Songs of Power. Most of these are
>not too ephemeral.

   There are other examples too. Some rather ephemeral, but still
quite definite. There was the beam of light Gandalf used to ward off
the Ringwraiths during the siege of Minas Tirith. For that matter I
have lost count of the number of times Gandalf lit a fire by magic
(Naur an edraith ammen!) How about Galadriel's protection of Lorien?
That is said to be similar in nature to Melian's protection of
Doriath. I rather liked the spell(or enchanted battering ram) used
by the Lord of the Ringwraiths to blast the Gates of Minas Tirith!
   I would suggest that anyone who does not see much magic in LOTR
re-read the books keeping in mind that every time he writes "as if
by magic", or some variant thereon, it probably *is* magic!

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 86 14:56:30 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil

>From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
>I think it is most likely that Tom Bombadil and the river daughter
>are Maiar.
>
>When Valinor was built, the Valar and most of the Maiar left Middle
>Earth to dwell there.  Some remained behind or later left Valinor
>and returned to Middle Earth (e.g., Melian)....
> My belief is that he is one of the minor Maiar in service to
>Yavanna (the river daughter probably serves Ulmo or Uinen).

   I agree. The Maiar were a very diverse bunch! The included
Sauron, the Balrogs, the Istari, and Ungoliant! I would in fact say
that the River Daughter was the special Maia of the
Withywindle(sp?), or *perhaps* the Brandywine. That is she was what
the Greeks would have called a Naiad.

>Bombadil's behavior towards the Ring says nothing about the extent
>of his power.  Gandalf himself explained it to the Council of
>Elrond.  It is not that Bombadil has a power over the ring, rather
>that it has no power over him.  Things of craft and power (such as
>the ring) have no hold on his mind.  The Ring was trecherous to
>Saruman and Gandalf not because they were Maiar, but because they
>were loremasters.

   And also because they were *incarnate*, in more or less human
bodies, thus making themselves subject to most of the influences
that mortals were subject to. While Bombadil's body was uniquely his
own and not subject to any influences designed for mortals. This
explains why the purely "physical" effect of invisibility did not
work on Bombadil. Beyond that your analysis is masterful.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 86 14:48:39 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Gandalf and his Ring

hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dan Green) writes:
>I recently re-read the hobbit and the trilogy and something strange
>occurred to me.  When he possessed the ring, one of the "powers"
>Frodo got was the ability to see rings worn by other people.  This
>is demonstrated when Frodo was in LothLorien, and could tell quite
>easily that the Lady Galadrial had one of the 3 elf rings.  Now the
>question I have is this: Gandalf told Frodo early, early on in the
>first book to throw the great ring in the fire to see if the ring
>would melt (it didn't, obviously).  This scene is one where Gandalf
>and Frodo are together, Frodo has the ring, and both are
>concentrating on the subject of rings.  *** Why didn't Frodo see
>the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger? ***

   Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of the Ring
and its operation, and a certain "rapport" with it are necessary for
its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo had not "grown"
in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all. Also, Lorien is
closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus it was more
powerful there.

>   Actually, now that I think about it, why didn't Frodo see the
>ring when Gandalf was fighting the nasty balrog on the bridge of
>Moria.  There clearly was an instance where G's ring should have
>been shining in fury, but Frodo (though he stared at the battle)
>didn't see anything.

   I do not think the rings operated in this manner. Some of
Gandalf's power over fire *may* have come from the ring, but it
would never reveal itself by glowing or any such overt
manifestation. It would just quietly do its job. Really, in the heat
of battle, with spells going off all over the place and everyone
running, I hardly think it likely that anything would really be
noticed.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 86 20:01:43 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Gandalf and his Ring

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>   Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of the Ring
>and its operation, and a certain "rappor" with it are necessary for
>its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo had not
>"grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all. Also,
>Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus it was
>more powerful there.

Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use
the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving
to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron
would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big point
made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring.

Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just
make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use?

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 14:48:43 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: re:The Ring and I

vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:

>friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>>   Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of the
>>Ring and its operation, and a certain "rappor" with it are
>>necessary for its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo
>>had not "grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all.
>>Also, Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus
>>it was more powerful there.
>
>Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use
>the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving
>to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron
>would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big
>point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring.
>
>Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just
>make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use?

I am afraid I am going to have to argue with bot of you. 1) the
chief power of the ring was *not* invisibility, projection into the
wraithrealm (same thing), or preservation. These were merely side
effects to mortals who tried to wear the ring. The true power of the
ring was a storage battery of energy that amplified the possesors
power proportional to the possesors stature. (See chap 2 of
Fellowship. Gandalf says in reference to Golum "IT gave him power
according to his stature.") Sauron could probably draw even more
power from it, since it was he who forged it and therefore
understood best its secretes. In addition, it fit him since it was :
"The better part of his strength of old."  Moving the ring towards
Oridruin did make it more powerful, also more difficult to resist.
In reference to 611@mit's statement: 1) Lorien is not close enough
to Orodruin to noticibly increase the rings power/detectibility.  2)
Frodo had grown in power and stature as a result of his adventures.
a fact that Galadriel notes after he has seen the ring on her
finger.

"Gonna take the ring, the golden golden ring
"Taken it to old Oridruin.
"For if Sauron gets the ring then we never more will sing
"And the capture of the ring will be our ruin."

Disclaimer: I did not write the above filk. Nor do I remember who
did, although I wish I could since I like to give authors credit
where possible.

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 05:23:07 GMT
From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen)
Subject: Frodo and the One Ring

Frodo was able to see Galadriel's ring because he bore the One Ring,
and because he had just beheld the Eye of Sauron.

In "Fellowship of the Ring", after Frodo has seen the Eye in the
mirror of Galadriel, he sees her ring:

Galadriel: "Yes, ... it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and
            one who has seen the Eye. ... This is Nenya, the Ring of
            Adamant..."
...
Frodo:   "I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see the
          others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?"

Galadriel: "You have not tried ... Do not try!  It would destroy
            you. ... Before you could use that power you would need
            to become far stronger, and to train your will to the
            domination of others."

Jim Olsen
ARPA:olsen@ll-xn
UUCP:{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1986 09:00 GMT
From: Martin Hughes
Subject: Tolkien list

All the recent Tolkien talk has re-awakened my interest in the
subject.  There have been some more recent publications by
Christopher, his son.  Does anyone have a complete list of
Lord-of-the-Rings-related books currently available in paperback on
this side of the Atlantic? I know that some items aren't yet
available:- does anyone have a list?  ( with publication dates )

Thanks in advance,
Martin
BITNET: HUGHEE84@IRLEARN
ARPA:   HUGHEE84%IRLEARN.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.ARPA
UUCP:   ...seismo!mcvax!euroies!mhughes

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 06:17:29 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Gandalf and his Ring

vis@trillian.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes:
>Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use
>the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving
>to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron
>would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big
>point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring.

   I would not say thse were the "principle" powers, in fact I would
call them the least powers. Also, I would say the invisibility and
the wraith-existence are in fact the *same* power. Also note, these
powers are ones which can apply without any act of *will* on the
part of the bearer. All the other(greater) pwers require *some*
amount of willful intent on the part of the user. Thus Frodo saw the
Ring of Adamant when he was looking for magic, and he percieved
things he more easily when he concentrated on what his sensations.
   Also, the point was not that only Sauron could truly use the
Ring, but that it could only be fully used by someone who was
equally dedicated to domination, and only by means of great effort
and extensive study of the powers of the Ring(which Sauron already
knew).  Its *principle powers were ones of *domination* and
*control*. Much of that came through knowledge, but it could also
dominate the will of one who was susceptible to it. I think the most
interesting example of its power was when Gollum(and the Ring as
well) were cast into the Cracks of Doom by the curse Frodo had set
on Gollum through the Ring!

>Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just
>make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use?

   Both! It apparently drew much power from the heavy aura of magic
around Mt Doom. But even on Amon Hen it would have revealed Frodo if
he had not removed it.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 06:31:54 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Tolkien's languages

   Now to start the discussion I really want to have about Tolkien's
languages. What follows is a small poem translated into accurate,
well-attested High Elvish, that is Quenya. Can anyone out there
figure out which poem? Even better, translate it?  (Note: I am using
double vowels to indicate length, since terminals will not
overstrike)

        Min corma ilye caanien, Min corma te tuuvien,
        Min corma ilye yalien, Ar mii mornie te mandien.

It should be rather easy if you know any Quenya vocabulary.

For extra credit, what is the meaning of my signature name(Sarima),
it is also Quenya, but it is not found in this form anywhere in the
extant corpus. (No fair those of you I have explained it to
answering!)

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 May 86 0849-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 30 May 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:

           Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Morris & Footfall,
           Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Aspiring Authors &
                   The Tenth Planet & Filksongs &
                   Conventions & Great Literature (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 May 86 21:18:52 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: RAH multiverses



From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
>>>[...FRIDAY is in the same universe is ["Gulf"]]
>> Along with "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The Rolling Stones",
>
>It has been argued that TMIaHM and Stones are in the same universe;
>as far as I've seen, this claim rests solely on the duplication of
>a redhead named Hazel Meade Stone. Since the HMS of Stones claims
>to have been a colonist while the one in TMIaHM was a creche orphan
>this is unlikely.

   The one in _The Rolling Stones_ was also a congenital liar, if
you'll recall.  The connection of the two books through Hazel seems
entirely plausible to me.

>But there isn't even this tenuous connection between the two latter
>mentioned and the FRIDAY universe.

   On this point I agree; when Chip made the above claim I assumed
that, while there was no indication that the "Gulf"/ _Friday_
timeline was connected to _The Rolling Stones_ and _The Moon is a
Harsh Mistress_ that I knew of, RAH had brought them together in
_The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_, which I had not read at the time.
Having since read _TCWHTW_, however, I must say that I noticed
nothing in it which would indicate that the two timelines are
connected.  (Though it _does_ make the connection between _TRS_ and
_TMiaHM_ more explicit, BTW.)

pH

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 02:59:35 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: RAH multiverses

> Friday calls Luna to speak to Bialey's lawyer. The moon is refered
> to as Luna Free State. This answers your other objection about
> Beanstalks.

   No, it doesn't.  It presents evidence for the opposing view, but
it doesn't deal with the point that he raises at all.

>   Also, look at the names of the colony worlds mentioned in both:
>the only one I remember off hand is Fiddler's Green, but there were
>several worlds I beleive that were both on the Space Liner's route
>in Friday, and were mentioned in TCWWTW.

   Come on, you guys!  Next thing you'll be telling me is that all
his stories that have anything to do with Luna are all in the same
universe, because they all mention Luna City.  Or that his and Larry
Niven's and who-knows-who-else's universes are all the same, because
they all call the tenth planet in the Solar system Persephone.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1986 10:06:58 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Book review

                         "Beyond Sanctuary"
                            Janet Morris
                             Baen Books
                 Science Fiction Book Club edition

   The first "Thieves' World" novel, "Beyond Sanctuary" deals with
Tempus and the Stepsons as they battle Roxane and the archmage Datan
for control of Wizardwall. The first two chapters, "Wizard Weather"
and "High Moon", first appeared in "Storm Season" and "The Face of
Chaos", respectively. The story picks up from the end of "High
Moon", when the Stepsons leave Sanctuary to follow Tempus to
Wizardwall.
   I couldn't get into this book. The plot moved rather slowly, the
writing was bland, and the characters, supposedly fleshed out in the
previous novels, seemed like flat images on a television screen.
   Perhaps the reason for my lack of enthusiasm for this book stems
from my confusion about certain plotlines in the series (What is the
current state of the Empire? What's so important about Wizardwall?
What *is* Wizardwall, anyway?). Or maybe its the writing itself
(What's the deal with Vashanka?  What's the story behind Roxane?
Behind Ischade? Behind Tempus?). Or maybe the series itself (Why did
the city suddenly break out into war in "The Dead of Winter"? What
are the Beysib gonna do next? Where's Shadowspawn?  Who really runs
Sanctuary, anyway? Whatever happened to Jamie the Red? Does anyone
have the faintest idea what the heck is going on in Thieves'
World????)
   As you can probably guess, I seem to have suffered a cerebral
meltdown somewhere along the line which affected my recollections of
the TW series.  But if you have read the previous books and you know
what's going on, then buy the book for the sake of completeness, if
nothing else. Otherwise, skip it.

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 20:59:03 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Footfall & SF Authors

Does anyone know whether all of the SF authors on the Threat Team
are based on real SF authors, and who they are based upon?

The following fictional --> real correspondences seemed rather clear
(at least to me):

Robert Anson    -   Robert Anson Heinlein
Wade Curtis     -   Jerry Pournelle
Nat Reynolds    -   Larry Niven

The following are guesses:

Joe Ransom      -   Harlan Ellison?
Sherry Atkinson -   C. J. Cherryh?

Anyone else have any ideas?

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET:        yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 05:12:29 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Who again?

ins_bjab@jhunix.UUCP (Jessica A Browner) writes:
>> Jon Pertwee had a theory that the Master was the Doctor's
>> brother.  How else to explain two extremely capable (but not
>> always competent) super-scientists who continually try to do one
>> another in, but always fail.
>
>  What do you mean by how else you can explain it?  It *is*
>possible, you know, for two completely unrelated people to have
>similar abilties.  Do you also think that Sherlock Holmes and
>Professor Moriarity were brothers?

Actually, some people have proposed such a relationship, because
Holmes and Moriarity seemed to read each other's thoughts so well,
and to give each other so many "chances".  And, just like
Vader-Skywalker, there's so much *drama* implicit in the
possibilities.  But in the case of the Doctor, an even more
interesting possibility presents itself: The Master could be a
future regeneration of the doctor!  Since the "Two Doctors" and the
"five doctors" episodes indicate that when regenerations meet, they
don't remember an incident from a previous point-of-view, there is
no inconsistency here.

I guess we *will* have to wait for "The Thirteen Doctors" (|=>) to
find out.

Richard Hoffman
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1986 08:51:38 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: Who's brother?

The Master is in no way related to the Doctor. You'll recall that in
"The Five Doctors," the First Doctor has no idea who the Master is
when they meet in the Dark Tower.

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 86 14:07:04 PDT
From: chuq%plaid@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Aspiring Author's Request

>>From: Scott Schneider
>>   Does anybody have any suggestions on what an unpublished author
>>can do with a 19,000 word (approx.) long short-story/short novel

>From: Tukla Oly, Pakrat
>    Go to your local library and look for a book called "The 1986
>Writers Market". It should have a list of publishers in all
>categories. I personally think you should try Isaac Asimov's
>Science Fiction Magazine or Amazing stories as your first places of
>submission. They handle new writers very well.  And your work, at
>the length you describe, is a novella.

This is overly simplistic. There are two books that should be
considered Bibles for writers.  First is the above mentioned Writers
Market, the second is the (finally out) 1986 Fiction Writers Market,
which really has the information Scott is looking for -- Writers
Market is primarily non-fiction markets in this edition.

You also, if you're serious about writing, need to keep an eye on
the changes to the market.  For example, George Scithers is out at
Amazing, and a TSR person is in. Amazing may well have been a strong
market for new writers, but there is no guarantee the new guard will
continue that.  Shawna is out at IASFM, Gardner Dozois is in.  There
are two semi-pro zines that do a good job of keeping track of the
musical chairs: Locus and SF Chronicle (write to me for subscription
info). Also watch the monthly Writers Digest (available on any
newsstand) for updates to the Market books.

DON'T EVER send a story to a magazine just because it is a good
market for beginners.  That is a GREAT way to make the magazine stop
looking at new fiction.  Send it to the magazines that are
appropriate markets for the stories, and if it is good you will sell
regardless of whether or not you are a new writer.  If it isn't good
enough, it won't sell anywhere.  If you're writing fantasy, for
instance, don't send it to Analog.  If it is nuts and bolts, you're
better at Analog or Amazing than IASFM. IASFM likes upper stories
rather than downers, so if you have a dark and stormy mood, look
elsewhere (like F&SF). Don't just send to a magazine blindly -- if
you don't read it regularly, you shouldn't be sending it stories.

Another overlooked possibility is the LitMag market, small magazines
that pay in goodwill and contributor copies.  It is a good way to
get exposure, earn your way into SFWA, and learn to be professional.
There is a GREAT section in the 86 FWM on these things, and many of
them have good submission to publication rations (1-10 to 1-100 as
opposed to upwards of 1-500 for the big mags).  Fantasy Book,
Pandora, and those kinds of magazines are great if you're trying to
break into the market and get good feedback on your work.  you won't
get rich (you may not cover your postage, for that matter) but you
will be published.

There is a good body of literature about how to be a professional
author (as opposed to being an amateur writer).  If you're
interested, drop me a line and I'll put together a bibliography.
Writing is a craft.  So is being an author.  Both need to be
studied, and going off half-cocked does everyone a disservice.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 02:40:09 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Tenth planet (was Re: RAH multiverses)

I wrote:
>   Or that his and Larry Niven's and who-knows-who-else's universes
>are all the same, because they all call the tenth planet in the
>Solar system Persephone.

   Come to think of it, does anybody have any idea how many sf
authors do this?  I've noticed that an awful lot do, but I've never
taken the time to make up a list of them.  Did one of them do it way
back, and the others followed suit, or is there some kind of
unspoken agreement, or what?

pH

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 19:24:54 GMT
From: 6103014@pucc.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: filk author?

There are 2 filks that I heard at conventions and I cannot remember
either the full text or the authors (Most annoying!).  One goes:

    "We build and scrap and overhaul it
     each and every trip,
     We'll begin to show some profit when
     we build a whole new ship.
     But I wouldn't trade my worries
     for some company's monthly check.
     I'm the proud and nervous owner
     of half a flying wreck."

The other goes:

     "Gonna take the ring, the golden golden ring,
      taken it to old Oridruin.
      For if Sauron gets the ring,
      Then we nevermore will sing.
      And the capture of the ring will be our ruin."

Please post or E-Mail.

HAROLD FELD
BITNET: 6090617@PUCC  (preferably)
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 22:24:39 GMT
From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: Southern California Conventions

Does anyone have a list of upcoming SF conventions in the Los
Angeles - San Diego area? If you do, please either post it to this
list or send me a copy. Thank-you.

Stuart Cracraft
vortex!trwrb!pyrla!cracraft

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 16:08:01 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes:
>... Yet, somehow, much writing that is deliberately turgid and
>weighed down with excess static verbiage (while short on real
>ideas) is termed by some to be "literature"; those who declare it
>so thereby feeling that they have raised themselves to an
>intellectual plateau upon which they can feel unique and especially
>insightful.  In my opinion, much of the accepted demarcation of the
>"literature" domain rests on such a basis. The determination of
>what is "great" writing is *entirely* subjective (notwithstanding
>the pronouncements of the literary establishement). There are no
>absolutes in this area, ...

[Ye gods, do we have to fight this battle YEARLY in net.sf-lovers?]

1. You obviously don't like Kritics or writing that seems to YOU
   to be "deliberately turgid" (whatever that means) and full of
   "static verbiage." Also, writing that's short on "real ideas:" as
   opposed to what, Pat? Phony ideas? Ideas you're not interested
   in? Human values? Sheesh. The trashiest "sci-fi" movie can be
   long on "real ideas;" does that make it valuable or worth seeing
   repeatedly?

2. You're plain wrong about the "accepted demarcation" line for
   literature. A work becomes literature because people generally
   believe it has lasting power: that is, it will be as relevant and
   rewarding a read a hundred years from now as it is today (for
   whatever reasons: usually because it deals with the time-less
   rather than the topical, something much SF is certainly not
   guilty of; you know, boring things like human passions,
   strengths, and failings). A work of literature also deals in some
   basic sense with what it is that makes us human: check out the
   classics, for example, written by people who have been dead for
   20 centuries or more: THEY LIVE.

3. The determination of a work's relevance and lasting power is
   certainly not "entirely subjective." They are not quantifiable
   qualities, however, and THIS, it seems to me, is what enrages
   many engineers, compunerds, and net.sf-lovers about Kriticism and
   the humanities in general. What's at issue here is the value of
   things in life that are not quantifiable, Mr. Clancy, which
   happens to be the root cause (I think) for the interminable clash
   between the Two Cultures in our society. We're at a sad state as
   a culture if the only things we can value are those things that
   can be submitted to a cost/benefit analysis.

Engineers seem to be uncomfortable with areas of human endeavor that
can't be valued on a binary or quantitative basis. They tend to
counter by devaluing those areas, and by using phrases like
"subjective" and "no absolutes" as though they were pejoratives.
This kind of humanities bashing is unattractive and proves NOTHING.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 17:24:13 GMT
From: olsen@ll-xn.ARPA (Jim Olsen)
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>...The determination of a work's relevance and lasting power is
>certainly not "entirely subjective." They are not quantifiable
>qualities, however, and THIS, it seems to me, is what enrages many
>engineers, compunerds, and net.sf-lovers about Kriticism and the
>humanities in general...

I believe Mr. Ingogly is mistaken: quantifiablity is not the issue.
The irritating thing about proponents of "great literature" (and
also of modern art and modern music) is the following attitude:

   I can recognize and appreciate great literature (or art, or
   music) and you can't.  I am therefore a better person than you
   are.

This attitude is obvious from the tone of Mr. Ingogly's posting.
Writing with an air of smugness will invariably draw flames.

Jim Olsen
ARPA:olsen@ll-xn
UUCP:{decvax,lll-crg,seismo}!ll-xn!olsen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 86 0831-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #137
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:

            Books - Card & Gibson & Heinlein & Footfall,
            Films - Movie Sequels,
            Television - Tripods & Japanese Animation,
            Miscellaneous - Filksongs & More Drinks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 12:50:06 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Review of Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead

_Ender's_Game_ copyright 198
_Speaker_For_The_Dead_ copyright 1986
by Orson Scott Card

     Ender is a child, from what is essentially a breeding project
for empathy.  He is the most empathetic person on earth. Through a
lack of love and a carefully conditioned environment, he is made
into a killer and a survivor, kicking and screaming all the way,
since he knows what he is becoming... empathy, don'tchaknow. He
kills, and he survives, and then there is nothing for him to do.
Such is _Ender's_Game_.

     In SFTD, he has been alive for 3000 years, through the
relativity of near-light travel. He has seen his name run the gamut
from that of Saviour to that of Destroyer, Maniac, Murderer. His
empathy creates life and understanding from lies and decades long
guilt, and averts a need for another like himself. He finds the
atonement he has been seeking.

     I just got finished reading SFTD. The words drained,
shellshocked, traumatized have significant meaning to my mental
state right now. I am telling you the entire story of each book, and
yet I am telling you nothing. Orson Scott Card could bring the
walking dead to life, by showing to the insensitive of the world the
life and love in all of us, creating in them the heretofore
impossibility of understanding another human as human, another
*species* as human.

     After the first chapter, the setting of the scene,
_Speaker_For_The_Dead_ was predictable to me...  the story had a
necessity of form and character as a sonnet does, a ritual dance.
Card writes simply, no sweeping descriptions, you don't know what
the characters look like. But it doesn't matter, for it is their
inner life you are looking at, the whole and the holes. The simplest
truths are the most powerful.

     The talent that reached to the core of being in _SongHouse_,
and showed you it's shape in _Ender's_Game_, molds you to it in
_Speaker_For_The_Dead_. If you have any heart in you at all, read
these books. If you don't, read them and hope to gain thereby. This
writer deserves to shine, to be remembered. Even if you don't like
his style, I don't think it is possible to be untouched.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 86 21:45:54 GMT
From: loral!ian@caip.rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan)
Subject: "Count Zero" by William Gibson

                   "Count Zero" by William Gibson
                            Arbor House

Science fiction allows an author to project current reality into a
future world that does not exist yet.  Consider our world today.  We
are at the start of an information age.  Computers are the medium of
this age and are, by and large, produced by large companies like IBM
and DEC.  Year after year these companies grow larger and branch out
into new areas. What will happen if companies like IBM, DEC, NEC and
Fujitsu keep growing as they have been?  Population dynamics should
give us some clue.

Computer power increases even faster than the multinational
companies grow.  A new generation of computers is being born. These
systems are parallel processors.  In ten years we may see computer
systems that are composed of millions of processors.

Coupled with the information revolution has been a quieter
revolution in biology.  In the last ten years scientist have been
able to synthesize complex hormones like insulin that in the past
could only be obtained from animal sources.  The human genes linked
to a number of disorders have been mapped.  There is little doubt
that there will come a time when the keys to evolution will be in
the hands of the human race.

Imagine a world fifty years or so in the future, when the
multinational companies have become more powerful than nations.  A
time when computer systems of massive power are globally linked.
Where some of these computer systems support artificial
intelligences.  A world where genetic and transplant technology can
be used to alter the human form.  This is the world that William
Gibson first showed us in Neuromancer.  In this world the computer
breakers of today (called hackers by the media) have evolved into
"cowboys" who break into the huge computers on the global network.
The cowboys "jack in" to the computer network via consoles that
provide direct stimulus to the brain.  An illusion is generated to
help people work on the global network.  This illusion is referred
to as the "cyberspace matrix" and appears as a vast three
dimensional plain. The huge corporate computer systems are
visualized as glowing structures on this plane.

With the exception of the military computer systems, most computer
systems today have very weak security.  In Gibsons world, where
information is recognized as both currency and power, computer
systems are guarded by complex security systems. These security
systems consist of both cryptographic measures and active counter
measures that can kill the computer breaker by "flat lining" the
brain ("flat line" refers to what would be seen on an EEG). The
security systems are referred to as Intrusion Countermeasure
Electronics, or ICE.  The programs the cowboys use to break into
these systems are referred to as icebreakers.

Gibson's new novel, Count Zero, is set in the same universe as
Neuromancer, but several years later.  Count Zero is the "handle" of
Bobby Newmark, who lives in a housing project and dreams of escaping
to a better life by becoming a "cowboy".  A small time black market
dealer rents Bobby an icebreaker to use on his first cowboy run
through the cyberspace matrix.  The black market dealer even
suggests a system to try the icebreaker out on.  As it turns out the
system is heavily guarded and Bobby is almost flat lined.  The
icebreaker is later stolen and the suppliers of the icebreaker
attempt to recover it with Bobby's help.

Gibson interweaves Bobby's story with threads from the lives of a
corporate mercenary and a woman who previously owned an art gallery.
Some of the other characters overlap from Neuromancer: Finn, the
black market dealer in software is back and the three threads of the
story are drawn together at the end of the book by remnants of the
Tessier-Ashpool empire.

Count Zero is highly recommended to those who liked Neuromancer or
the movie Blade Runner.

Ian Kaplan
Loral Dataflow Group
USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!loral!ian
ARPA:   sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 21:04:10 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: What is the "Gulf"?

I've read quite a bit of Heinlein, including Friday, The Moon is a
Harsh Mistress, and The Rolling Stones, but I've never heard of the
"Gulf".

Could somebody please elaborate?  Is this a novel, short story,
series, or what?

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 20:42:51 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Footfall

After finishing Footfall at 3:00 AM this morning (last night?), I
can finally join the ongoing discussion.

I thought that this was without question the best "Alien Invasion
Story" that I have read.  For once, the alien's are neither
portrayed as bloodthirsty monsters nor victims of a
"misunderstanding".  They are warriors, but not psychopaths.

As in Lucifer's Hammer/Mote in God's Eye/etc, the human characters
were believable, if not all that well-developed.  The action and
suspense were non-stop, up until (literally) the last page.  The
ending was abrupt, but I disagree with those who say that this is a
problem.  It is obvious what would have happened next, and in this
way, the writers avoid an anticlimax.

Basically, it comes down to this.  If you enjoyed Niven &
Pournelle's earlier collaborations, especially Lucifer's Hammer and
The Mote In God's Eye, you will enjoy Footfall.  If you hated Niven
& Pournelle's earlier novels, you will hate Footfall (your loss :-).


Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1986 14:41:43 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Movie sequels

    At the end of the movie "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai",
they mentioned a sequel called "Buckaroo Banzai Against the World
Crime League".  Similarly, the movie "Sword and the Sorcerer"
promised a sequel called "Tales of the Ancient Empire". Does anyone
know if either of these sequels will ever be filmed?

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 86 10:06:01 -0200
From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Tripods
Cc: chris%umcp-cs@csnet-relay.arpa ,
Cc:     richardt%oregon-state@csnet-relay.arpa

>>To start with the third question: no, it is definitely not exactly
>>like the trilogy. There are many disappointing differences, some
>>of them silly (for example, they changed the name of one of the
>>heros from Jean-Pierre to Jean-Paul, and his nickname from Jumper
>>to Beanpole; the reason for that escapes me).
>
>I do not doubt that there are differences, but ...
>I distinctly remember Beanpole.

Oh oh; that will teach me not to post electronic messages late at
night. :-)

What actually happened was that I read these books a long time ago
(about 10 years) and I read them twice; the first time I read a
simplified-english version (which was required reading in
high-school, and is still the only thing for which I feel grateful
to my high-school), and it was THERE that they changed the name to
Jean-pierre aka Jumper; when I later read the original version, I
remember getting angry at the "simplifiers" for changing the name,
but somehow the name Jumper was the one that stuck in my memory.

Sorry; it won't happen again.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:            eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:    eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:              ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 14:06:10 GMT
From: sfsup!jeffj@caip.rutgers.edu (J.S.Jonas)
Subject: Re: Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated

> My wife and I were really amused to find that these are definitely
> ADULT comic books (over an inch thick) and rather explicit too.
> Needless to say the kids would have enjoyed it (they are
> teenagers), but we didn't give them the chance.

   Congratulations!  You have just disoverered the world of Japanese
Manga (comic books).

   An excellent ENGLISH book on the subject is
   _Manga_Manga_The_World_Of_Japanese_Comics by Frederik L. Schodt
   (paperback, publisher=Kodansha International through Harper & Row
   (c) 1986

   This book is very thorough, describing the evolution of the comic
book from Picture Scrolls from the 12th century which featured
"Walt-Disney - style anthropomorphized animals".  Many cartoons
later became animated and some made it here to the US, although the
editing and fidelity to the original text varies from good to
horrible.  Let me elaborate:

Robotech: rather good.  Originally three series from the same
studio, Macross, Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber Mospeada were
combined by Harmony Gold because they acquired the rights to all
three.  At the Cartoon/Fantasy Organization meetings (worth looking
into in you're into animation and/or Japanese stuff) the New York
chapter has been showing the original Japanese version of Mospeada,
so I can definitely say that the Robotech 'New Generation' is a good
translation, and the Comico comic books are good too.  They have
little in common except that the same studio produced them, and they
use giant Mecha (robots).  Some dialogue editing put the
Protoculture from Mospeada as a common tie to the Macross series.

Battle of the Planets: horrible!  This is the highly 'edited for
American TV' first Gatchaman series.  The original is my favorite
series, which had 3 series in Japan.  Details deserve a separate
article, but to summarize, they deleted all the graphic violence
(after all, G-force is a Ninja Team) and inserted 7-Zark-7, an R2D2
look-alike as a timefill and to explain the discontinuities created
by the scenes that were cut.  He put a sugar-coating on everything
(i.e. "of course, all those Spectar agents evacuated the base before
the bomb exploded" where the original showed them being blown up
with the base.).  'Nuff said.

Others are:  (from "Manga Manga" page 155)
   Astro Boy (Osamu Tezuka's "Mighty Atom"),
   Kimba, the White Lion (Osamu Tezuka's Jungle Taitei or
      "Jungle Emperor")
   Gigantor (Mitsuteru Yokoyama's Tetsujin 28-go or
      "Iron Man No. 28")
   The Starvengers (Go Nagai's Getta Robotto)
   Star Blazers (Reiji Matsumoto's Uchu Senkan Yamato or
      "Space Cruser Yamato")
   Force Five (a package of Japanese warrior-robot
      animation, with characters by Go Nagai and
      Reiji Matsumoto)

There are many sources of Japanese manga. I will post a separate
article on that.

Jeff Skot
{ihnp4 | allegra | cbosgd} attunix ! jeffj

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 86 04:27:56 GMT
From: suadb!lindberg@caip.rutgers.edu (Per Lindberg QZ)
Subject: Re: tales of fen and filksong, and a survey

The way I heard it, "filk song" was originally a misspelling (or
rather, mistyping) of "folk song". (Look at your keyboard and you'll
see why). It originated at some con, and the term stuck.

Yes, I think it would be nice to have a "fan slang file", like the
"hacker slang file" from the hacker communities at MIT, Stanford,
CMU etc.

Per Lindberg

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 15:04:40 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: non-alcoholic PGGB

I tried to directly mail this, but kept getting bounced.

   This is the virgin equivalent of a local favorite.  It's the only
one I've had, although those that imbibe tell me the other has quite
a kick...

   Take the juice from one bottle of ol Janx Spirit
        (Aniset flavoring, available at your liquor store, in
        bottles, next to grenadine, etc. An inch and a half
        for a 16 ounce glass, or so.)

The waters and the marsh gas can be regular carbonated water.
Perrier, for example, or soda water.  Use about two thirds of the
glass, remembering that you must add three crushed Mega ice cubes.
A mega-cube is about four or eight times the size as a regular cube.

   Add Qualactin Hypermint over the back of a silver spoon.
        (This ingredient varies according to your law level and your
        wallet.  If you're a rich law breaker, use coke.  If you're
        a poor, but honest party goer, crush to a fine powder one or
        two citrated, caffiene tablets and add them.  Nodoz doesn't
        taste right.  Go for the cheapest drug store citrated
        caffiene.  Figure on around 100 miligrams of caffiene per
        drink.)

Drop in the tooth of a Suntiger.  (Lemon slice, generous.)

Sprinkle Zamphour.  (Blue coloring, probably sugar, PERHAPS touch
salt.  This will have to be to local taste.)

Add olive.  With the virgin version, the olive alone probably will
supply all salt needed, especially if you use big ones.

This is great stuff at a dance, where you want to get everybody
jumping and going.  Much better than booze.  I'd get a bottle of
everything and play with the ingredients, till you get it to your
own tastes as far as sweetness, etc.  If the group is young, I'd
probably sweeten more.

        What's it for?  Why no alcohol?  When do I get paid?

{dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 86 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #138
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:

        Books - Calvino & Card (2 msgs) & Ellison (6 msgs) &
                Herd Aliens & Generation Ships,
        Films - Warriors of the Wind & James Bond,
        Miscellaneous - NASFIC & Jane Fonda (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 01:45:16 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Invisible Cities

soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes:
>On net.recomendation, I read Calvino's Invisible Cities.  While I
>quite enjoyed it, I am fairly sure I missed a fair amount (like,
>say, the point).  Could some of the net.literature.gurus explain
>what is going on, what Calvino is trying to do, etc?

   Uff.  I just took a course this semester in which the professor
spent a couple of weeks talking about various aspects of what
Calvino is trying to do in this book.  But some useful things to
keep in mind are: what do cities with the same chapter titles have
to do with each other?  Notice the order in which they are arranged
and grouped.  Is there a trend?  Why are the cities invisible?  Is
each city complete?
   Finally, the most significant passage in the book (for me) was at
the beginning of chapter 6; I use part of it here as a closing
quote.

   "Every time I describe a city I am saying something about
   Venice."

pH

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 86 04:18:20 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Review of Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead

I agree completely with your review of Ender's Game (and I have been
searching for Speaker For The Dead), it was an excellent novel,
especially when one realizes that that the short story version of
Ender's Game was Card's first sale ever.

I have to make one correction though.  Ender was born from a
breeding project for geniuses, not empaths.  Ender's sister
Valentine was rejected from the program because she was too empathic
and would never lead a fleet into battle, and his brother Peter was
rejected because he liked killing too much and might lead a fleet
into unnecessary (and strategically inopportune) slaughter --
however, both were geniuses like Ender.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 19:41:01 GMT
From: 6105530@pucc.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Review of Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead

I only picked up Ender's Game because I've enjoyed Card's short
fiction for some time.  Actually (no reasons right now) I didn't
like Ender's Game very much, but I will pick up SFTD after that
glowing recommendation.  Anyone else out there more thrilled with
his short stuff (St. Amy's Tale, Unaccompanied Sonata, etc.) than
with these new books?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 86 18:23:49 GMT
From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: A Phone Conversation with Harlan Ellison

I've said it here before, and I think I'll say it again: I feel very
strongly that authors, particularly prolific and hard-working
authors, should not be disturbed in the privacy of their own home.
That is what a convention guest of honor is for; that is what a con
panelist expects.  However, calling up famous people just to chat is
an invasion of privacy.

I am not flaming Stu for calling; I appreciate his good intentions.
I'm flaming him for suggesting that we call Harlan if we have
anything we want to say to him.  Harlan doesn't answer his fan mail
for precisely that reason: if he answered it all, he wouldn't have
time to write.  If fans called him day and night (and they would) he
would get no peace at all.

I've found Harlan to be quite congenial within the context of the
several cons he and I have both attended.  I wouldn't blame him one
iota if he hung up on a fan that called him at home.

Stu should not have printed that telephone number.  Please, people,
don't call Harlan.

Ellen Eades

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 May 86 20:25:41-EDT
From: Laurence Brothers <BROTHERS@CS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Harlan Ellison's Phone Number

Was that a joke, or did you just give out the man's phone number,
***over the net***, even though your acquaintance with him seems to
be two unsolicited phone calls?

Even if his number is listed, that hardly seems to be a very well
thought out action -- given his relative notoriety, if you were in
his place, would you want your number distributed like that? I would
suppose he has a private unlisted number, but even so....

Or did he invite you to ask all sf-lovers subscribers to give him a
call?

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 17:57:00 GMT
From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: A Phone Conversation with Harlan Ellison

Stuart, posting the private telephone number of a famous writer
strikes me as being about the most irresponsible thing I've yet read
on the net.  I mean, come on.

mike krantz

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 20:50:07 GMT
From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: Harlan Ellison's phone number

Well, all I can say in response is that Harlan, perhaps more than
any other modern author, writes about what he lives. His experiences
and his life come fully into his work, more so his non-fiction than
fiction.

So your phone calls are fodder for his pen. He wouldn't post a
public phone number, being a well-known author, unless he was fully
prepared for the well-wishers, the cranks, the kooks, and the
praise-givers who would inevitably call.

Stuart Cracraft
vortex!trwrb!pyrla!cracraft

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 86 21:34:24 GMT
From: pyrla!cracraft@caip.rutgers.edu (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: Harlan's phone-number

The considerable "bad-vibes" from this list about the posting of
Harlan's phone number strikes me as very ironic. Harlan spends half
of his life, seemingly, writing articles that encourage some group
of people to direct their attention via phones, letters, or protests
at some particular group, typically a company, but often an
individual in a position of authority, to promote a "cause."
Case-in-point: read essays in his latest - AN EDGE IN MY VOICE, a
superb collection of his news articles.

How does Harlan's posting of an address or phone number or name of a
company to the thousands of his readers, encouraging them to take
action and communicate with the target, differ in any way from my
posting his phone number to this list? I don't think it does.

Why do you allow Harlan the privilege of encouraging mass
communication such as that mentioned above but deny it to another
person? It seems hypocritical to say the least.

Stuart Cracraft
vortex!trwrb!pyrla!cracraft

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 86 20:34:05 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison's Phone Number

Given that Harlan Ellison makes rather a point of mentioning that
his phone is listed in Sherman Oaks (in print, see e.g.  *An Edge in
His Voice*), I'd say he isn't particularly worried about it.

Besides, if enough people call him that he gets an unlisted number,
maybe he'll stop kvetching about all the boobs who call him.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 04:51:31 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.Ac.Uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Herd Aliens

> ...does anyone know of any other stories involving intelligent
> herd societies ?...

Although Larry Niven has not gone into this problem before in any
great detail, I think that both the Pierson's Puppeteers ( from
almost any of his "Known Space" series ) and the Fuxes ( "Flare
Time", in "Limits" ) both count in this respect. However, as far as
I know, there has been no large-scale warfare between humans and
either of these races, though in the case of the puppeteers, their
entire system was held to ransom by a human pirate known as Captain
Kidd ("A Relic of Empire", in "Neutron Star" ). The solution to this
was not violent, but economic, as the puppeteers are cowards.

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 00:16:38 GMT
From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix)
Subject: Re: Generation-ship stories?

Along the lines of the generation ship story-line you are after, I
would recommend Robert A. Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky".  Be
aware, as well, of the tv series (Canadian) "The Star Lost" which
was based on this idea as well.

------------------------------

Date: 30-May-1986 1212
From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste DTN522-2590)
Subject: Where can I find Warriors of the Wind Video?

I have seen several references to a video of Warriors_of_the_Wind.
All the references have recommended the video so I have attempted
to find it.  It is NOT at my neighborhood video store.  It is not
even on the list of available videos from the local chain "Sound
Warehouse".  Can anyone reccomend a video chain that has this video
in their catalog and available for ordering or viewing?

I live in Colorado so Boston, LA, or New York stores probably won't
help.

Celeste Wood
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nermal!wood
ARPA:   wood%nermal.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 86 06:22:42 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: Findlay Light versus Pierce Brosnan

> From: mit-eddie!nathan        (Nathan Glasser)
> For some time now there have been postings definitively stating
> that Findlay Light (sp?) was to be the new James Bond in "The
> Living Daylights." Nobody ever seemed to give a source for this
> information.  However, the following article is from today's
> (5/18/86) Boston Globe, reprinted without permission.
>
> [quoted article mentions Brosnan being chosen for Bond]

Well, it's sort of like this. While Brosnan was the favored choice,
there was the question of whether he'd be free from REMINGTON STEELE
in order to play Bond. According to an article I quoted from the
Boston Herald-American a few weeks back, Findlay Light was the front
runner in the Bond race (since Brosnan's availibility was in
question).  Shortly after this, Bond producer Cubby Broccoli
announced Light as being signed to play Bond. Shortly after *this*,
NBC announced that they weren't renewing STEELE. Shortly after
*that*, Broccoli announces that Brosnan will play Bond.
   This is not the first time that Broccoli has changed his mind
after making such an announcement. I had forgotten until a co-worker
had reminded me recently that John Gavin had been announced as being
the new Bond for DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, only to be pre-empted in the
role when Connery decided to return to it for that film.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note *new* new UUCP address****

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 86 15:28:40 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: NASFiC: "Does Europe have a..."

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes says/asks:
>As to NASFIC, it is a convention held in North America to console
>those who can't afford to go to WorldCon when it's held on another
>continent.  (Does Europe have any similar cons when it's here, or
>in Australia?)

Besides various national conventions (including one in Australia),
there is an annual European con, bid on by sites in different
countries similarly to the Worldcon; it is called Eurocon, and is in
Zagreb, Yugoslavia this year...see public file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT on
ARPANet host SRI-NIC for details of this and other cons worldwide
(warning, this file is ~55,000 characters).

One of the proposals involving changes to Worldcon
site-selection/rotation rules is to drop the NASFiC from the WSFS
constitution, and replace it with a totally separate charter for a
"national" convention (I put national in quotes, because the NASFiC
covers all of North America, including Mexico and Canada (Canada
also has it's own annual national con, just held in Vancouver)).

Cheers,
Rich Zellich
St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 May 86 14:10:40-PDT
From: James McGrath <MCGRATH@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith vs. Jane Fonda
To: inuxm!arlan@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

In general I agree with everything you said about good old Jane
Fonda.  However, I disagree with the following for two reasons:

    arlan andrews, Analog irregular; libertarian; one who would not
    watch a Jane Fonda movie other than one of her funeral.

First, I have always tried to treat purely commercial transactions
(such as seeing a movie) in a non-political manner.  Fonda is a good
actress - I have enjoyed many of her performances.  It is precisely
on those occasions when she is NOT acting that I find her to be
grossly unqualified to intelligently comment on the state of the
world.

Second, I think you would enjoy watching Barbarosa (sp?), a
fantasy/science fiction movie she starred in during her "sex kitten"
phase (it begins with Jane stripping down to the buff).  I hear that
she now would like to buy all the prints and burn them, but luckily
"art" is not that easy to suppress.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 86 11:22:44 GMT
From: hull@glory.dec.com
Subject: Jane Fonda's titillating early career

>From: James McGrath <MCGRATH@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>Second, I think you would enjoy watching Barbarosa (sp?), a
>fantasy/science fiction movie she starred in during her "sex
>kitten" phase (it begins with Jane stripping down to the buff).

   Just to set the record straight, the above-mentioned movie was
titled "Barbarella", and was indeed as much fun to watch then as her
workout tape is nowadays.

Barbarosa was the infamous pirate "Red Beard".

Al

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 86 20:23:06 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith vs. Jane Fonda

>From: James McGrath <MCGRATH@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>In general I agree with everything you said about good old Jane
>Fonda.  However, I disagree with the following for two reasons:
>
>    arlan andrews, Analog irregular; libertarian; one who would not
>    watch a Jane Fonda movie other than one of her funeral.
>
>First, I have always tried to treat purely commercial transactions
>(such as seeing a movie) in a non-political manner.

The question of whether or not one should let political beliefs
alter commercial transactions is a personal one, and I don't want to
suggest what I think *you* should do -- but it's pretty clear that
Jane Fonda uses her personal income as a movie actress to finance
her political activities.  So it is certainly reasonable that
someone who is strongly against her political activities wouldn't
want to watch (and pay for) one of her movies, for fear that they
would be contributing to the political activities indirectly.

I can certainly understand the original poster's messages, since I
had friends getting shot up in Viet Nam at about the same time Jane
Fonda was making propaganda films for the NVA.  *I* wanted the Gvt
to try her for treason at the time, although I've moderated those
views slightly now....  It's not easy to be as fanatical as I am
about Free Speech sometimes.

>Second, I think you would enjoy watching Barbarosa (sp?), a

   Barabarella... Barabrosa was someone entirely different.

>fantasy/science fiction movie she starred in during her "sex
>kitten" phase (it begins with Jane stripping down to the buff).  I
>hear that she now would like to buy all the prints and burn them,
>but luckily "art" is not that easy to suppress.

I still wonder occasionally why it is that stripping in Barbarella
was Politically Incorrect, but bouncing around in revealing tights
in an exercise tape is Politically Correct.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jun 86 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #139
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:

           Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Vance & Yulsman &
                   Codex Atlanticus,
           Films - Sequels & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) &
                   Star Trek IV & Short Circuit,
           Miscellaneous - New Filksong & Barbarosa

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 04:59:12 GMT
From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter)
Subject: Re: What is the "Gulf"?

> I've read quite a bit of Heinlein, including Friday, The Moon is a
> Harsh Mistress, and The Rolling Stones, but I've never heard of
> the "Gulf".  Could somebody please elaborate?  Is this a novel,
> short story, series, or what?

_Gulf_ is a short story in a collection called _Assignment in
Eternity_.  Also in there are _Elsewhen_, _Lost Legacy_, _Jerry was
a Man_.  Good, quick reads.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 15:31:40 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Jones)
Subject: Yet Another RAH multiverses

Quick glossary:  RAH=Robert A. Heinlein
TMiaHM=The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
TRS=The Rolling Stones
TCWWTW=The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
Gulf="Gulf" a story in the collection Assignment in Eternity
Friday=the novel of the same name

From: cjh%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
> It has been argued that TMIaHM and Stones are in the same
> universe; as far as I've seen, this claim rests solely on the
> duplication of a redhead named Hazel Meade Stone. Since the HMS of
> Stones claims to have been a colonist while the one in TMIaHM was
> a creche orphan this is unlikely.

In TCWWTW, Hazel explains that she is both the orphan adopted by the
Davis family in TMiaHM and that she is the mother of Roger Stone in
TRS.

> But there isn't even this tenuous connection between the two
> latter mentioned and the FRIDAY universe. Note the first line of
> FRIDAY:
>        "As I left the Kenya Beanstalk capsule, he was right on my
> heels". (*) Beanstalk or Kalidasa's Tower or whatever the original
> name for this was, it's much too big to have vanished from
> TMIaHM---after all, if you're shipping out prisoners you'll use
> the cheapest method, and once you've built such a tower it's going
> to be a lot cheaper than reaction drives.

Again, in TCWWTW, the two are tied together retroactively: Friday
takes place, oh, I'd say some 150 years after the Lunar Revolution.
This is reasonable, because humans had only colonized as far as the
Asteroids in TMiaHM, but had some dozen-odd colonies at nearby stars
in Friday.

> Or consider that in GULF the moon is a resort, with no indication
> of farms, ex-prisoners, or political independence.

What can I say?  You're right, but to quote Lapus Lazuli and Lorelei
Lee Long,

   "He isn't lying--"
   "He's a creative artist--"
   "Speaking in parables--"
   "And he emancipated those Jabberwockies--"
   "Who were cruelly oppressed."

A mystery or western writer can write stories using the same
characters and setting over a span of fifty years.  A Science
Fiction writer cannot.  Scientific discoveries have been marching
along without the slightest regard for authors who put swamps on
Venus or canals on Mars.  RAH does a commendable job of tying his
stuff together, but even the Gay Deceiver Whatsit (please!  the
official name is the Burrough's Continua Craft!)  can't smooth all
the edges without multiplying entities unnecessarily.

S. Luke Jones
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 86 09:37:03 cet
From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance

                     Jack Vance the Marvellous
                     Master of Science Fiction
                                 by
                         Gary A. Allen, Jr.

The following table is a list of all of the writings in book form by
Jack Vance.  Included is my own rating for each book.  Jack Vance
has been in the science fiction business for some time.  He is
widely regarded as being in the top twenty of the world's best SF
authors.  In the Netherlands, where Jack Vance has had the good
fortune of being well translated, he is the most popular science
fiction author.  Vastly inferior authors have received far more
acclaim than Jack Vance.  This is partially due to Vance himself.
He is an intensely private man and does not involve himself in much
of the self promoting ballyhoo that many of his science fiction
colleagues have engaged in.

Those who have never read Vance and have no qualms about reading a
piece of pseudo-fantasy, should read _Rhialto_the_Marvellous , which
is his best book.  In terms of straight science fiction his novel,
_The _Dirdir is the best.  However _The_Dirdir is a component of the
_Tschai_Series and should only be read in sequence with the other
novels of the series.  His best nonfantasy work which is not a
component of a series is _The_Last_Castle .

The most widely currently available novels by Vance are of the
_Lyonesse_Series .  These novels are NOT recommended.  Jack Vance is
a full-time professional author.  The _Lyonesse_Series represents an
unfortunate attempt at trying to cash-in on the current fad with
"swords and sorcery" fantasy.  Jack is extremely good at writing
novels such as _The_Dying_Earth_Series , or the _Tschai_Series .
Commercial authors like Vance will continue to write things like
_Lyonesse if people buy them, so if you must read this sort of stuff
please read a used copy or a library copy.

A good book about Vance is: _Jack_Vance by Tim Underwood and Chuck
Miller, Taplinger Publishing Co. 1980.  I would also be interested
in establishing a dialog with other Vance fans on acquiring first
edition hard bound books by Jack Vance.

_TITLE             _DATE_PUBLISHED _RATING (0-10, 10 = best)
                                           (* = Not rated)

The Five Gold Bands           1953        3
The Languages of Pao          1957        8
Slaves of the Klau            1958        *
The Dragon Masters            1963        9
Future Tense                  1964        *
The Houses of Iszim           1964        8
Son of the Tree               1964        7
Monsters in Orbit             1965        *
Space Opera                   1965        5
The Blue World                1966        9
The Brains of Earth           1966        *
The Complete Magnus Ridolph   1966        4
Eight Fantasms and Magics     1969        *
Emphyrio                      1970        9
Vandals of the Void           1970        *
The Gray Prince               1974        5
Galactic Effectuator          1976        6
Green Magic                   1979        *
The Last Castle               1980        10

Big Planet Series

Big Planet                    1952        *
Show Boat World               1975        9

The Alastor Series

Trullion: Alastor 2262        1973        8
Marune: Alastor 933           1975        7
Wyst: Alastor 1716            1978        6

The Durdane Trilogy

The Faceless Man (The Anome)  1973        9
The Brave Free Men            1973        7
The Asutra                    1974        7

The Demon Prince Series

Star King                     1964        8
The Killing Machine           1964        8
The Palace of Love            1967        6
The Face                      1979        8
The Book of Dreams            1981        7

The Tschai (Planet of Adventure) Series

City of the Chasch            1968        9
Servants of the Wankh         1969        8
The Dirdir                    1969        10
The Pnume                     1970        9

The Dying Earth Series

The Dying Earth               1950        9
The Eyes of the Overworld     1966        10
Cugel's Saga                  1983        9
Rhialto the Marvellous        1984        10

The Lyonesse Series

Lyonesse I: Suldren's Garden  1983        0
Lyonesse II: The Green Pearl  1985        *

On the rating system used a 6 or better is recommended.

Works with a 10 either received a Hugo/Nebula or should have.  ALL
of Jack Vance's works including _Lyonesse_ are better than 99.9% of
what one would typically find for sale as Science Fiction.

Prizes Won by Jack Vance

1958    nominated for the Hugo       _The_Miracle-Workers
1962    BEST NOVELLA Hugo            _The_Dragon_Masters
1966    BEST NOVELLA Hugo            _The_Last_Castle
1973    nominated for the Nebula     _Rumfuddle
1974    nominated for the Hugo       _Assault_on_a_City
1985    nominated for the Nebula     _Rhialto_the_Marvellous

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 12:05:40 EDT
From: KERN@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: An Alternate History book we missed.

   I've just finished reading a book called ELLEANDER MORNING, by
Jerry Yulsman.  It was published as a mainstream or lit-fic book,
but has everything we Alternate History junkies like.  I'm surprised
I haven't heard more about it from the sf community. It starts out
with a woman shooting a young, antisemitic painter in 1913 Vienna.
I won't take the plot any further; if you like Alternate History as
much as I do, you'll enjoy it immensely.

   I found this book in the remainder catalog from Edward R.
Hamilton Bookseller, Falls Village, Connecticut. They also had the
CODEX SERIPHINIANUS listed in their most recent catalog.

Kevin B Kern

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 86 13:53:52 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Codices

For all those poeple who tried to find Codex Seraphianus (sp) in
BOOKS IN PRINT---did you happen to notice the list price for Codex
Atlanticus? If not, take another look.

Garrett Fitzgerald
ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 86 22:39:18 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Movie sequels

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>    At the end of the movie "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai",
>they mentioned a sequel called "Buckaroo Banzai Against the World
>Crime League".  Similarly, the movie "Sword and the Sorcerer"
>promised a sequel called "Tales of the Ancient Empire". Does anyone
>know if either of these sequels will ever be filmed?

     "Tales of the Ancient Empire" was only a treatment. I read it a
few years ago, and it was not much of a story. But then again,
neither was the treatment for "Sword and the Sorcerer". The second
Buckaroo Banzai movie has a completed script, and Peter Weller was
under contract to play Buckaroo again, but production never began.
And nobody has ever said why.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 9:20:35 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
To: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Movie sequels

The ladies who run the Buckaroo Banzai/Blue Blaze Irregulars fan
club have been trying to drum up support for making the sequel,
apparently to no avail.  The rights have recently reverted to the
independent production company that made the movie, and they
apparently have no plans, current or otherwise, to do the sequel.
If people are interested in writing them to urge consideration/
making of the sequel, I can look up the fan club and production
company addresses.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 08:24 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: A call to the BBIs...

All Blue Blaze Irregulars planning on attending the 20th Anniversary
Star Trek convention on June 22 at the Disneyland Hotel in Anaheim,
CA who wish to get together while there, please contact me before
then.  Anybody know where we can find Buckaroo?

Also, the latest word is that there will be no Buckaroo Banzai
Against the World Crime League.  Not enough "normal" people went to
see the first flick :-)

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 10:00:51 PDT
From: RSmith.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST IV rumor

Heard an odd rumor - that a large ship whose home is Alameda CA (SF
Bay) has been hired for use in the making of ST IV.  My
understanding is that this ship is large enough to have helicopters
land and take off.  The source is someone who knows a crew member.
What can this be for?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 86 09:03 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Short Circuit

Cute robots are still the in thing in movies, and Short Circuit
takes the theme about as far as it can go.

If you're the type that can accept one silly idea, suspend your
disbelief, and enjoy a movie when everything else extends logically
from that idea, you could get into this movie.  That idea is: that a
bolt of lightning can change a robot into a thinking, feeling
person.

Now, I'm with the Programmer Hero who states repeatedly (and his
coworkers chime in) that robots can't be happy or sad, they just run
programs.  But he gets convinced when the robot can see birds and
butterflies in an ink (actually, tomato soup) blot and laughs at his
jokes, and sums the results up with "I understand now!  Spontaneous
Emotional Response!"  Yes, good old SER, we see it all the time.

But, the movie has it's funny moments, as the Girl meets the robot,
assumes it's ET, and tried to teach it about Earth.  As the Indian
programmer mangles English with lines like "If we don't find that
robot, we'll all be out punching the sidewalk."  But my favorite
line was when the Security folks start shooting it up and our
Programmer Hero holds up his badge and says, "Wait!  No!  I've got
Clearance!"  Strange, I was the only one in the theater to laugh at
that.

I couldn't handle the premise of this movie, but if you think you
can, go see it and you'll have a few laughs.  Especially if you,
too, have worked in aerospace or DoD stuff and can recogize some of
the "in" jokes that seem to be thrown about.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 22:24:24 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: New Filk

Fen:

Here's a filksong I've composed while driving to work the last few
days or so.  Feel free to use it, even though I'm (c) the lyrics;
I'd love to hear it sung, so if you want to sing it, I'll be at
Inconjunction, Rivercon, Confederation, Contact, DeepSouthCon, and
maybe some others.  Just give credit for the words, even though the
tune is stolen:

[Tune:  "The Last Farewell," as sung by Roger Whittaker]

Lyrics (c) 1986, by Arlan Andrews

The Mars Farewell

There's a ship stands rigged and ready at the spaceport
And tomorrow to old Mother Earth she flies
Far away from your world of red-rust deserts
To my world of green hills and blue skies.

And I shall be aboard that ship tomorrow
Though my heart be sad at this, our last farewell
Your Mars is beautiful
But I have loved Earth dearly
More dearly than the human heart can tell.

I've heard there's a wicked war a-raging
And the tast of war I know so very well
I can see the red-starred battle station
Their lasers flash as we fly into Hell.

I have no fear of death, it brings so sorrow
But how bittersweet is this, our last farewell
Your Mars is beautiful
But I have loved Earth dearly
More dearly than the human heart can tell.

I have walked so many miles of Martian desert
I have climbed the god-like peak, Olympus Mons
I have tramped down in the Valles Marineris
And studied Solis Lacus' ancient ruin

And if I live once more to land on Earthside
I'll recall this ruddy orb I've known so well
For Mars is beautiful
But I have loved Earth dearly
More dearly than the human heart can tell.
(Repeat last two lines...)

Typos are inevitable, I suppose.  How about someone who can play and
sing, doing just that?

Thanx,
arlan

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 06:58 CDT
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: re: Barbarosa

Barbarosa "Red Beard" is/was a Germanic King Frederick Barbarosa,
not a pirate.  Legend states that he and his knights sleep in a
mountain cavern waiting to wake and defend Germany in time of need.

Steve
ARPA:  DOET@AFCC-3

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 86 0833-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #140
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:

             Books - Heinlein & Vance (2 msgs) & Wrede,
             Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Hidden Fortress &
                     Barbarella,
             Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) & Doctor Who,
             Miscellaneous - Southern California Conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue,  3 Jun 86 21:24:21 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Heinlein's _Gulf_
To: yamauchi@MAPS.CS.CMU.EDU

From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
>I've read quite a bit of Heinlein, including Friday, The Moon is a
>Harsh Mistress, and The Rolling Stones, but I've never heard of the
>"Gulf".
>
>Could somebody please elaborate?  Is this a novel, short story,
>series, or what?

  _Gulf_ is a short story, written in 1949.  It appears in
_Assignment in Eternity_ which is currently not in print but can be
found at better cons everywhere.  _Gulf_ introduces Kettle Belly
Baldwin, who also appears in _Friday_.
  Also in _Assignment in Eternity_ is _Elsewhen_ , _Lost Legacy_,
and _Jerry was a Man_.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 16:24:41 GMT
From: grady@cad.BERKELEY.EDU (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance

Just wanted to thank you for that posting.  I've been an off-and-on
fan of Jack Vance for a few years (mostly off because his books are
hard to find) but I just read the Demon Princes series a couple
months ago (and due to my recommendations, a few friends are
struggling to find copies of these books themselves), and I finished
_The_Gray_Prince_ yesterday.  I had been planning to post about
Vance myself, but you did a far better and more comprehensive job
then I could have.  Also note he's written short stories -- one of
the books on my stack of need-to-be-read is _The_Worlds_Of_Jack_
Vance_, a collection of 9 stories.  As an aside, does anyone in the
Bay Area (preferably East Bay) know where I can find a copy of
_The_Dirdir_ (or the rest of the Tschai series)?  I've been looking
for that since I saw it mentioned in _Barlowe's_Guide_To_
Extraterrestrial_ a few years ago, but haven't found it in any of
the bookstores I've checked out..

Steven Grady
grady@ingres.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!grady

------------------------------

From: marco@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (the wharf rat)
Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance
Date: 3 Jun 86 22:25:10 GMT

From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
> The most widely currently available novels by Vance are of the
> _Lyonesse_Series .  These novels are NOT recommended.  Jack Vance
> is a full-time professional author.  The _Lyonesse_Series
> represents an unfortunate attempt at trying to cash-in on the
> current fad with "swords and sorcery" fantasy.  Jack is extremely
> good at writing novels such as _The_Dying_Earth_Series , or the
> _Tschai_Series .  Commercial authors like Vance will continue to
> write things like _Lyonesse if people buy them, so if you must
> read this sort of stuff please read a used copy or a library copy.

   The "Lyonesse" books are excellent examples of fantasy-sf.  The
fact that Vance is a professional author merely accounts for the
excellence of the work.  *I* recommend Lyonesse to anyone who likes
fantasy.  By the way, since you object to professional authors
writing "things like Lyonesse", why do you like the "Dying Earth"
stuff?  It's mostly about magic, too: "The Excellent Prismatic
Spray", "Phandall's Gyrator", and wasn't Rhialto the Marvelous a
*magician* ?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 14:37:23 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE SEVEN TOWERS by Patricia C. Wrede (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "Eltiron, Prince of Sevairn: caught in the web of his father's
  intrigues.

  Crystalorn, Princess of Barinash: promised in marriage to a prince
  she's never seen.

  Ranlyn, the desert rider: forced to choose between friendship and
  honor.

  Jermain, the outlaw: exiled from court for the crime of telling
  the truth.

  Vandaris, the soldier: who left the life of luxury to wield a
  sword and lead an army.

  Carachel, the Wizard-King: who does not understand the awesome
  power he commands.

  and Amberglas, the sorceress: who may not be quite as fuddleheaded
  as she seems...

  Seven players in a game of deadly magic. Seven Kingdoms at the
  edge of destruction. Seven Towers holding a dark and dreadful
  secret."

This is a fantasy book; the part of the world in which the story
takes place consists of moderate-sized kingdoms with renaissance-
like technologies, though only a few of the seven kingdoms play a
direct role in this book.  In some kingdoms, magic is common, though
few people actually have the talent to practice it.

The principal characters are very accurately described by the
jacket, though Ranlyn doesn't directly appear until rather late in
the book. One of the author's strong points is the ability to
portray a number of interesting people without confusing the reader
as to who is who.

I enjoyed the book for a number of reasons. First, the dialogue is
frequently fun to read, especially when Amberglas takes part.
Second, I couldn't predict what would happen. Third, some of the
characters weren't clear cut, and it seems to me more realistic when
the characters aren't just black or white. Finally, there was a
theme throughout, built a little bit at a time, and the climax put
all the pieces together in a nice fashion.

I give the book 3.0 stars out of 4.0 (pretty good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 18:45:55 GMT
From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re:  Movie sequels

From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>The ladies who run the Buckaroo Banzai/Blue Blaze Irregulars fan
>club have been trying to drum up support for making the sequel,
>apparently to no avail.  The rights have recently reverted to the
>independent production company that made the movie, and they
>apparently have no plans, current or otherwise, to do the sequel.
>If people are interested in writing them to urge
>consideration/making of the sequel, I can look up the fan club and
>production company addresses.

Fan Club: Banzai Institute
          c/o 20th Century Fox
          P O Box 900
          Beverly Hills CA 90213

Production Co: Gladden Entertainment (formerly Sherwood Productions)
               9454 Wilshire Blvd #309
               Beverly Hills CA 90212

T-shirts, caps, etc. from: Team Banzai
                           P O Box 19413
                           Denver CO 80219

Bob Halloran, Consultant
UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran                DDD: (201)251-7514
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857         ATTmail: RHALLORAN

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 13:00:42 GMT
From: mcnc!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland)
Subject: Re: Star Wars

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>HIDDEN FORTRESS is out on cassette and I have been meaning to write
>a review of it.  It actually is not that close to STAR WARS.  It is
>mostly about the attempts to return a willful princess and her gold
>to her own country (from enemy territory).  I don't think she is
>ever really captured by the enemy.  The main characters are two
>humorous soldiers, a powerful stranger who protects the princess,
>and the princess, herself.

Well, not to say that any movie with two humorous peasants, a
powerful stranger and a princess is STAR WARS, but certainly all the
plot elements are there.  You were expecting maybe a scene-for-scene
comparison like SEVEN SAMURAI and MAGNIFICENT SEVEN?  (I don't know
whether it's come up in this discussion, but Lucas admits to STAR
WARS being influenced by HIDDEN FORTRESS.  In particular, R2D2 and
C3PO are directly borrowed from the two humorous peasants.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Jun 86 10:21:41-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Barbarella and Jane Fonda

I heard that when asked about it in an interview, she replied, "I
thought it was a cute movie" much to the surprise of the reporters
in the room.

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 86 14:47:19 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: STAR TREK/Wars

Last night, when I was watching "Newhart", I caught a doubly-swiped
line.  I was just considering asking you readers for the line and
the situation in Star Trek, but I will instead quote the line: "I
felt a disturbance in the Force." Now, who knows what episode of
Star Trek Lucas swiped that from?  Not exactly swiped, but close
enough so that I'm embarrassed that I didn't catch it before.

Garrett Fitzgerald
st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 June 1986 15:05:03 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Star Trek

    Can anyone tell me the name and plot of the last original "Star
Trek" episode aired before it was cancelled? And when will "Star
Trek IV" be released (if indeed there *is* another ST movie in the
works)?

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 23:42:39 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

Turnabout Intruder was the last "original" ST episode aired. There
were, of course, the cartoons in the early 70's. ST IV will be
released in Dec 86.

Sarge

------------------------------

Date: 4 June 1986 09:48:42 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Future Who

> But in the case of the Doctor, an even more interesting
> possibility presents itself: The Master could be a future
> regeneration of the doctor!

Bosh and bullsnoods, I say!

We all know that the Master's goal in life (besides domination of
the universe, of course) is the destruction of the Doctor. So if the
Master is indeed a future Doctor, he would be trying to kill
himself. And if he succeeded, then how could his future self exist
to kill his past self?  Quite a paradox there.

Another question: How in quantum blazes did the Master survive being
fried to a crisp in the numismaton gas on Sarn?


Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Jun 86 06:52:32-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Southern California Conventions
Cc: pyrla!cracraft@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

Here is the list Stuart Cracraft requested.  Note that this is a
straight extract from the Geographic Cross-Reference and detail
listing sections of the SF cons list publicly accessible on host
SRI-NIC as file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT - the file is currently a bit over
60,000 characters (around 25 printed pages).

Enjoy,
Rich Zellich
St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee

California, Southern: June 21-22, 1986 - Anaheim
                      June 26-29, 1986 - San Diego
                      July 3-6, 1986 - San Diego
                      July 11-12, 1986 - Burbank
                      July 11-13, 1986 - Manhattan Beach
                      August 8-11, 1986 - Long Beach
                      August 9-10, 1986 - Los Angeles
                      November 1-2, 1986 - Anaheim
                      November 28-30, 1986 - Los Angeles

June 21-22, 1986 (California, Southern)

   CREATION/STARLOG SALUTE TO 20 YEARS OF STAR TREK. Disneyland
   Hotel, Anaheim, CA.  With Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelley, Gene &
   Majel Roddenberry, Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, Grace Lee
   Whitney, and hosted by comedian Rick Overton.  World premiere of
   scenes from Star Trek IV.  Dealer tbls: $200 each; each table
   incl. 2 full memb's for use by legitimate helpers only.  Info:
   SASE to Creation, 249-04 Hillside Ave., Bellerose, NY 11426;
   (718) 343-0202.

June 26-29, 1986 (California,Southern)

   SCIENCE FICTION RESEARCH ASOCIATION 1986 ANNUAL MEETING. San
   Diego State, San Diego, CA.  Memb: $40 to 3 Feb 86, $50 to 12 May
   86, $65 at the door.  Info: Larry McCaffrey, 3133 N. Gregory St.,
   San Diego, CA 92104.

July 3-6, 1986 (California, Southern)

   HALLEYCON/WESTERCON 39. Town and Country Hotel, San Diego, CA.
   GoH: David Brin; FGoH: Karen Turner; TM: Greg Bear.  5 Track
   Programming: The Worlds of Fandom (Art, Zines, Special-Interest
   Groups); The Land of Hard Science (NASA, JPL, L-5, The R.H. Fleet
   Space Theatre); The Lands of Horror and Fantasy; The Usual
   Outstanding Film and Video Programming; The UNEXPECTED
   event...yes, even planned for this...anything can go here!  And
   the usual gamut of events: masquerade, trivia bowl, Readings,
   Promotions, Local Clubs, Helpful classes, Useful Hints, and
   Worthwile Information.  Memb: Supporting $10; Attending $15 thru
   31 Dec 84, $20 thru 30 Jun 85, $25 thru 31 Oct 85, $30 thru 27
   Feb 86, $35 thru 31 May 86, then higher at the door; supporters
   can convert to attending for $10 less than the attending rate at
   the time of conversion; $5 for kids in tow.Dealer Tbls: Sold out
   as of November 15, 1985, and there is a waiting list.  Art Show:
   $5 per panel (you can hang as many or as few pieces as you wish),
   10% commission on sales; display cases will be available on an
   as-needed basis, but please write as soon as possible.  Info:
   Westercon 39, P.O. Box 81285, San Diego, CA 92138.

July 11-12, 1986 (California, Southern)

   SUNBURST II. Burbank Airport Hilton, Burbank, CA. GoH: Judson
   Scott; other guests TBA.  Info: Sunburst Con II, Joyce Bakken,
   P.O. Box 5151, Glendale, CA 91201.

July 11-13 1986 (California, Southern)

   SHADOWCON X (**moved from 20-22 Jun 86, Hyatt at LAX, LA**).
   Radisson Hotel, Manhattan Beach, CA ($55 sngl, $60 dbl, $15/extra
   adult; free shuttle service to LAX).  Guests: Frank Ashmore,
   Greta Blackburn, Mickey Jones, Andrew Prine, Sam Rolfe, Norman
   Felton.  Featuring V The Celebration.  Art show, dealers room,
   films, video; all proceeds from special con programing go to a
   local shelter for abused children.  Memb: $15 & 3 SASEs until 31
   Dec 85, $20 & 2 SASEs until 15 Jun 86, $25 at the door; $15
   1-day, $5 1-day dealer's room only.  Info: SASE to ShadowCon X,
   8601A W. Cermak Rd., North Riverside, IL 60546; checks payable to
   Barbara Fister-Liltz.

August 8-11, 1986 (California, Southern)

   MYTHCON 17. California State University, Long Beach, CA (rooms
   $100+/$200?, 3 nights, incl. 9 meals).  Annual Mythopoeic
   Conference; commemorating the Charles Williams' centennial.
   General emphasis on high fantasy (J.R.R> Tolkien, C.S. Lewis,
   Charles Williams).  Theme; The Daughters of Beatrice; Women in
   Fantasy.  Papers, panels, films, art show, auction, drama, music,
   masquerade, dealers' room, banquet.  Memb: $20 to 15 May 86, $25
   to 25 Jul 86, higher at the door.  Info: Mythcon 17, c/o Prof.
   Peter Lowentrout, 619 MacIntosh Bldg., Cal State U., Long Beach,
   CA 90840.

August 9-10, 1986 (California, Southern)

   CREATION. Los Angeles, CA.  Tentative booking; each table incl. 2
   full memb's for use by legitimate helpers only.  Info: SASE to
   Creation, 249-04 Hillside Ave., Bellerose, NY 11426; (718)
   343-0202.

November 1-2, 1986 (California, Southern)

   CREATION. Anaheim Sheraton Hotel, Anaheim, CA.  Creation comics,
   Star Trek, Robotech, etc.  Dealer tbls: $135; each table incl. 2
   full memb's for use by legitimate helpers only.  Info: SASE to
   Creation, 249-04 Hillside Ave., Bellerose, NY 11426; (718)
   343-0202.

November 28-30, 1986 (California, Southern)

   LOSCON THE 13TH. Los Angeles, CA.  GoH: John Brunner; FGoHs:
   Bruce & Elayne Pelz.  Memb: $15 thru 6 Jul 86 (Westercon 39),
   $17.50 thru 31 Oct 86, then $20 at the door.  Info: Los Angeles
   Science Fantasy Society, Inc., 11513 Burbank Blvd., North
   Hollywood, CA 91601; (818) 760-9234.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 86 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #141
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Adams & Brooks & Card &
                          Ford (2 msgs) & Vance & Zahn,
                  Films - Buckaroo Banzai,
                  Television - Doctor Who (3 msgs),
                  Miscellaneous - Filksongs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 15:23:08 GMT
From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray)
Subject: Embarrassment

It seems that instead of perpetuating a rumor I'm perpetuating an
April fool's joke.  I can remember now the article and even remember
laughing it off at the time, but somewhere deep in the faulty memory
I must have added the possibility of a fifth _Hitchhiker's_ to my
wish list.

I agree that _So Long and Thanks for all the Fish_ (Although a great
title) was not a great _Hitchhiker's_ book.  It did, however,
indicate that Douglas Adams might turn out to be an interesting
author.

I'd still appreciate any information on new books by Adams.

Thanks
Randy Murray
cbosgd!rtm

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 19:25:23 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Book Publication Date Wanted??

Does anyone know when (or even if) the third Terry Brooks book
_Wishsong_of_Shannara_ (I think it is) will be published in regular
(read cheap) paperback format. Also the same question for the last
two of Robert Asprin's Myth books. Some of us don't like to shell
out 9 bucks for a paperback, even if it is a bit larger.

Thanks.
Burch Seymour -Gould C.S.D. at   ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 15:31:57 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card

                  ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card
                             Tor, 1986
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     A while back I got justifiably flamed on the Net.  I complained
about titles and I used as an example a book I hadn't read, ENDER'S
GAME.  I said that the title implied that the book had something to
do with endgame strategy and that it was, in fact, a cheat.  The
book was instead about someone named Ender.  It's true, I should not
have said that until I read the book.  I have now.  A bunch of
people who apparently like Orson Scott Card and who don't know what
an endgame strategy is were at least right that I should have paid
my dues and read the book before making my complaint.  My statement
was just a lucky guess.

     ENDER'S GAME is about the training of Ender from age five to
twelve, teaching him to be a great military genius.  The idea is to
combine the kid with the best raw material with the best military
training and end up with not just the world's best 12-year-old
military commander, but with a commander who cannot lose, period.
And that is Card's chief failure-- Ender's abilities are just too
unbelievable for his age.  Even assuming that Ender has the best
training possible and that the world has a much expanded population
to choose from, it is still extremely unlikely that there would be
someone as young as Ender with his abilities.  Ender is never
convincing as a person of his supposed age.

     In addition to this, though I have never seen an analysis, it
seems that there are theoretical limits to how good a military
commander can possibly be.  Of course, superior force is a big
advantage, but the commander who wields it is considered to be
powerful, not good.  The good commander is one who can be counted on
to win a higher proportion of the time than would be expected from
the size of his forces.  The thing is that an army is a sufficiently
complex organism that it cannot be perfectly predicted what it will
do.  This is what is wrong with ENDER'S GAME and Gordon Dickson's
"Dorsai" novels like TACTICS OF MISTAKE.  A good strategy will help
a lot, and some commanders might have runs of good luck and win many
battles, but eventually the law of large numbers takes over.  A
Dorsai can figure out in advance exactly what his enemy will do, but
that is only because Dickson is contriving the situation so that the
enemy has only one course of action to take.  In real life,
commanders use whims and hunches and weigh alternatives in ways
Dorsai or Ender could not psyche out.  And armies are not totally
obedient monolithic organisms.  One can postulate that Card's
insect-like Buggers will follow the commands of their queen, but
Ender is victorious over humans in battle and humans are not totally
predictable.

     ENDER'S GAME is a good novel, though the reader becomes
impatient for something besides training to happen, then it
concludes itself very quickly.  Saying more than that about the
structure of the novel would be giving spoiler clues as to how the
novel turns out.  It is worth reading but not Hugo material.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 06:28:26 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: An Alternate History book we missed.

I seem to have missed the list of alternate histories.  Did anyone
mention _The Dragon Waiting_, by John M. Ford?  The Ottoman Empire
didn't crumble, and good old Transylvania is still holding out.
John M. Ford is apparently also a predominantly mainstream author.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 06:34:52 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: John M. Ford

You're kidding, right?

Aside from THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford has written (so far) a total of
four books, all very definitely --- and packaged as --- science
fiction, including one Star Trek novel, and a Star Trek "interactive
fiction" book under a pseudonym.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

****Note *new* new UUCP address****

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 20:41:43 GMT
From: nvuxr!5111rd@caip.rutgers.edu (R. DITCH)
Subject: RE: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance

In reply to Gary Allen and his article about Jack Vance, these
words:

I too am an avid fan of Vance's work, and have read everything he
has published that I could find.  Contrary to Allen's statement, his
list is not complete, as it excludes the following books or
collections that I have copies of:

  - To Live Forever (novel, Ballantine paperback)

  - Maske: Thaery (Novel, Berkley-Putnam hardcover &
    Berkley Medallion soft cover)

  - Dust of Far Suns (Collection, DAW paperback)

  - The Narrow Land (Collection, DAW paperback)

  - The World Between and Other Stories (Collection, Ace
    paperback)

  - The Worlds of Jack Vance (Collection, Ace paperback)

  - The Best of Jack Vance (Collection, Pocket Books)

  - Nopalgarth (Collection, DAW paperback)

There may be others, especially limited edition collections like
Green Magic from Underwood-Miller.  Vance also has written some
mystery novels under his real name of John Holbrook Vance, but I've
only come upon The Man in the Cage.  I think U-M has recently
published some of these in expensive, limited hard cover form.

I disagree with Allen's selections as the "best" Vance books, and
about the Lyonesse books.  My own favorites are: Eyes of the
Overworld, The Dragon Masters, Big Planet, and Galactic Effectuator.

As far as Lyonesse goes, Allen has surely gone overboard in rating
this as zero on a 0-10 scale.  I would rate both of these books as
at least "average Vance." Since It had been three years since
reading the first volume, I re-read it before beginning The Green
Pearl, and found it to be much better than I had remembered.
Vance's style is apparent through out both books, and lends itself
well to the story he is telling.  I'll continue to support Vance by
buying his books, and hope to see book three in less than three
years.

Perhaps Gary Allen would expand on his reasons for his selections of
his favorite Vance books; I'd certainly like to know why he rates
Rhialto the Marvellous above Eyes of the Overworld, and The Dirdir
above Big Planet or Galactic Effectuator.

Richard Ditch
Bell Communications Research

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 14:34:39 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: COBRA by Timothy Zahn (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "The colony worlds Adirondack and Silvern fell to the Troft forces
  almost without a struggle. Outnumbered and on the defensive, Earth
  made a desperate decision. It would attack the aliens not from
  space, but on the ground -- with forces the Trofts did not even
  suspect.

  Thus were created the Cobras, a guerilla force whose weapons were
  surgically implanted, invisible to the unsuspecting eye yet
  undeniably deadly. But power brings temptation...and not all the
  Cobras could be trusted to fight for Earth alone. Jonny Moreau
  would learn the uses--and abuses--of his special abilities, and
  what it truly meant to be a Cobra."

This is another instance of a novel put together using, in part,
pieces of short stores written earlier. The main character ages
about 20 years between first story and the last.

This might be considered a successor to "Starship Trooper" with a
touch of 6 Million Dollar Man. There's some attention to the
technology, but most of the emphasis is split between adventure and
the relations between Cobras and "normal" people. We hardly see the
alien Trofts at all.

The author does a creditable job of balancing the excitement of war
with the realities of death and destruction, and most of the book
doesn't take place during the war anyway.

I enjoyed the book. Though I prefer a novel that covers a shorter
period of time and is woven from one fabric, I though the stories
here were well done. I give the book 3.0 stars out of 4.0 (pretty
good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 16:48:09 GMT
From: quad1!laura@caip.rutgers.edu (lmc)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai, Blue Blaze Irregulars

For those of you who remember "Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth
Dimension" with fondness, and wish there was a sequel, Take Hope!
Sherwood Productions, which made Buckaroo, has (sigh) no interest in
making a sequel.  Neither (sigh) does 20th Century Fox.  HOWEVER,
with enough public interest generated, there is hope that "Buckaroo
Banzai against the World Crime League" will be made.  Don't hold
your breath, but we can try.

The simplest way to make it clear that there *is* public interest in
a sequel, is to write and ask to join the Blue Blaze Irregulars.
All you have to do is send them your address -- there's no charge.
They'll periodically send you all sorts of neat information, and
keep you posted as events develop.  Here's the address:

        The Banzai Institute
        20th Century Fox Pictures
        P.O. Box 900
        Beverly Hills, CA 90213

Also, keep your eyes open for the Penguin Books version of "Buckaroo
Banzai," by Earl Mac Rauch ... it's around, and it's good!

Where are we going?

PLANET 10 !!!

When?

REAL SOON !!!

Laura
UUCP: {sdcrdcf|ttdica|scgvaxd|mc0|bellcore|logico|ihnp4}
      !psivax!quad1!laura

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 86 22:16:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
>... I really don't think that the Doctor would do anything
>unwholesome with his female companions. John Nathan-Turner once
>said (in a Time magazine interview about Doctor Who--I can't recall
>the issue) that "there's no hanky-panky in the TARDIS."

  Also remember that while The Doctor and the other Time Lords
cosmetically resemble male and female homo saps THEY ARE NO SUCH
ANIMAL.  The Doctor may, quite rightly, feel no more sexual
attraction for his human companions than he does toward K-9 (i.e.
none).
  Nor do we know what Gallifreyan sexuality is like.  Time Lords of
the opposite sex (such as the Doctor and Romana) may be attracted to
each other only at infrequent intervals.  Do not fall into the trap
of thinking that because they look like humans being that they must
also act like them.  A very low (by human standards) sexuality might
easily be a concomitant of their very long (by human standards)
lives.  Indeed, can anyone recall seeing a juvenile Time Lord?

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 16:17:20 GMT
From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl)
Subject: Re: Who again?

It doesn't make sense that when Gallifreyans regenerate, they must
always be the same sex that they were before.  Their faces and
clothes change.  Even their personalities change.  Why not 'nads?  I
think this is a far more interesting and relevant question than, "Is
the doctor married?"

(Of course he's not!  How do you think he manages to avoid
inconvenient, boring and stupid dinner parties on Gallifrey?  He
doesn't have a wife insisting that he attend!  How do you think he
has the freedom to travel extensively with young exotic MOTOS?  You
think a wife would put up with that?!  Hmmf.)

I could imagine an Angela Lansbury or Glenda Jackson type playing
Dr. Who, complete with all of the doctor's technical, scientific and
diplomatic savvy.

Is the BBC violating any equal opportunity/employment statutes by
hiring only men to play Dr. Who?

Cheryl

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 12:29:42 GMT
From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Who again?

I seem to recall seeing a quote from JN-T that they had thought to
replace Peter Davidson with a female, but that 'Tradition' or
whatever won out and they picked Colin Baker instead.

Bob Halloran, Consultant
UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran                DDD: (201)251-7514
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857         ATTmail: RHALLORAN

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 05:42:27 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: filk author?

6103014@pucc.BITNET writes:
>There are 2 filks that I heard at conventions and I cannot remember
>the full text or the authors (Most annoying!).  One goes: "We build
>and scrap and overhaul it
>           each and every trip,
>               ......
>           I'm the proud and nervous owner
>           Of half a flying wreck!

The song "Half a Flying Wreck" is by John A. (Jack) Carroll, who
lives in the Boston area (at least, I've met him mostly at Boskone
and Noreascon) and is an active folkie performing sea chanties and
the like as well as a filker.  He also wrote "The Chemist's Drinking
Song".  I believe he is an engineer (chemical engineer?) in real
life, but I could be wrong.  I have his address someplace if you're
desperate.

Jordin Kare
!lll-crg!s1-mordor!jtk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 86 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #142
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 19:19:54 GMT
From: randvax!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Gandalf's linguistic capabilities (new info)

In "The Hobbit" Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin pick up weapons after the
trolls are turned to stone.  Gandalf notes that there are runes on
his and Thorin's swords, and that they will know more about their
provenance when the runes can be read.  Not until they get to
Elrond's place do they find out that the runes are written in the
language of Gondolin, and that they name the swords Glamdring and
Orcrist.  Why wouldn't Gandalf know the language of Gondolin?

Jim Gillogly
{decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 86 22:30:30 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: The One Ring

   "In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
       One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
       One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them
    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
    --  from the frontispiece to The Lord of the Rings

At last!  Earnest discussion of my utterly favorite story.

1. That one bit of verse in 2 lines says it all about the Ring.
   The Ring's power was domination of others, in accord with the
   user's stature.  That was what Sauron wanted it for, that was why
   he forged it: to capture and dominate all the races of Middle
   Earth.  But it was a trap: as you used it to dominate, it was
   dominating and corrupting you, until eventually you would be
   turned into a little Dark Lord yourself, and thus did Sauron try
   to insure his succession, even if his enemies should finally
   destroy him.  And because the power of the trap depended on the
   stature of the user, it was far more dangerous for the Wise
   (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc.) than for one small,
   unrecognized hobbit.

   Gollum was a hideous example of this process almost complete.
   The power it gave him was used for petty thieving and small, mean
   damage, which was proportional to his stature in his community.
   He wore it constantly, and it broke him, distorted him, and drove
   him mad.  The corruption wasn't quite completed because where he
   went, there were nothing but fish to dominate (Gandalf speculated
   that the Ring then manoeuvred its own loss to get back to its
   Master).  The result was a schizophrenic, thieving little
   murderer, living in darkness, wanting light and fearing it, the
   two parts of whose mind hated each other: a hideous creature at
   once loathsome and pitiable.  That's what you got if you tried
   to use the Ring.

   After all, you didn't really think anybody would be seriously
   worried about a ring that just made you invisible, did you?
   Think of the social advantages.  Bilbo is not the only one with
   relations like the Sackville-Bagginses.

2. The Elven Rings were not weapons at all.  They were created to
   help the Elves and their friends do what they most wanted: build
   and learn.  Elrond explained, to Gloin I think, that they were at
   work; but the manner of their function was subtle, and not to be
   discussed, partly, I believe, because it was essential that they
   be hidden from Sauron.  So Narya was not at all the right tool
   for Gandalf to use against the Balrog; and certainly fury was
   alien to its nature.

3. The Ring did gain power as it approached the place of its
   forging in Orodruin (not, begging your pardon, Oridruin).
   "Return of the King" says so explicitly.  However, I see no
   actual evidence that its power increased as the Fellowship moved
   through Eriador, even though Frodo had been weakened by his knife
   wound (he never entirely recovered from it).  It did not appear
   to increase until it was actually back in Mordor, where it became
   an excruciating burden.

   However, it seems to me that in Lorien, within less than a
   kilometer of Galadriel, its power must have been very
   circumscribed, just as the power of Galadriel's Phial was
   diminished inside Orodruin.  One of the few tactical advantages
   the Elves had over Sauron was Galadriel's power, which could
   discern his mind even while it concealed those of the Elves from
   him.

4. Somebody asked about further works of his father's that
   Christopher Tolkien had published.  I assume that by now all
   Tolkien followers know about Unfinished Tales.  There are many
   good stories there, thought CT's footnotes indicate that they are
   from notes which are incomplete, and sometimes conflicting.
   Besides stories of Numenor and Beleriand, there are some aspects
   of the Third Age that are covered: particularly, how the Roherrim
   came to live in Rohan, the pact that was made between Eorl the
   Young and Cirion (12th Steward of Gondor, I believe); Sauron's
   hunt for the Ring, when he learned that it had been rediscovered
   (circa "Hobbit" and early "Fellowship of the Ring", but from
   Sauron's point of view); and, perhaps most interesting of all,
   Gandalf's account, told in Minas Tirith before the Fellowship
   divided, of how he came to knock on Bilbo's door with 13 dwarves
   in tow in the first place.  This last includes some vintage
   Gandalf: winning the War of the Rings did not change him.  If you
   don't have Unfinished Tales, get it: enlightening reading.

   Following that: my brother gave me for Christmas "The Lays of
   Beleriand", which tell many of the great stories of Beleriand in
   epic poems.  Those who delight in Tolkien's handling of epic
   poetry will love this.  Like Unfinished Tales, though, it is
   culled from Tolkien Sr's notes, and as Christopher works back
   through them, they get more and more incomplete, with less
   development of, and more conflict between, the ideas.  Samples
   are included of notes, criticisms, and suggestions from, among
   others, C. S. Lewis; so, to a degree, this book is moving back
   beyond Tolkien's great history into the making of that history.

   Please forgive my loquacity; even restraining myself to this much
   was an effort.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 86 23:24:59 PDT
From: nj%eris@BERKELEY.EDU
Subject: Tolkienmania!

Ahh, this whole thing is still going on...  inspired me to pull out
my old copy of LotR which I ruined the spines of...  Since we seem
to be hip-deep in identity questions, can anyone tell me what
happened to each of the Silmarils?  This is kind of a technical
question and I would be able to answer it if I had the Silmarillion
right next to me, but unfortunately a friend from Missouri borrowed
it for the summer and right now I'm in California.  A friend of mine
thinks someone still has one of the Silmarils, but I disagree.

p.s.  I used to be s7ylf4%irishmvs.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu.  Now I'm
nj@eris.berkeley.edu.  A little less gibberishish......nj

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 86 13:05:47 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Re: Tolkien - another can of worms

With all of the detailed analysis of LotR going on lately, I thought
I would use this opportunity to pass along some previously unknown
facts :-) about Tolkien and his books and characters.

1) Elrond - It is a little known fact that JRR was one of the first
   devotees of Scientology. In fact some biographers at the National
   Inquisitioner feel that without Scientology, TLotR would have
   been just another sex filled romp in the woods. But to the point,
   Elrond was created in homage to JRR hero L. Ron Hubbard, who was
   know to his friends at the time as Elron.

2) Ellesedil - Biographer I.M. Fruity makes the case that if one
   uses a soft C sound and "drop a few letters that didn't really
   need to be there anyway" you can see the name Ellesidil is
   derived from the english Electric Drill. He claims JRR used the
   character as a reminder of the well know accident in which JRR
   lost his big toe to an electric drill. Other scholars have
   pointed out that Ellesedil does not even appear in TLotR, but in
   a similar sounding tale by one Terry Brooks. These arguments have
   failed to sway Mr Fruity's thinking.

3) Ents - Another of Mr Fruity's claims is that the ents were
   created by JRR after a long discussion with a Mr J Daniels. The
   story goes like this.
      "JRR and his buddys were tossing a few back at the pub and
      watching a BAD science fiction film, "Attack of the 20 foot
      Ents". The movie was an early work by Edward Wood Jr. who
      later reached greatness with his "Plan 9 from Outer Space".
      Anyway, the real title of the movie was supposed to be "Attack
      of the 20 foot Ants", but due to a typo in the titles, and no
      budget left to reshoot, it got released that way. JRR must
      have gotten confused when he created the tree-like ents,
      because he used the name ents, but described the characters
      from another Wood classic, "Tree Monsters from Cypress Sump"."

If I find any more of these little known facts :-> I'll pass them
along later.

Burch Seymour -Gould C.S.D. at   ....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 13:53:17 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

    That was one of the more in depth LotR articles I've read, but I
have a question. You explained that the purpose of the 3 was for
good.  What about the 7 and the original purpose of the 9? Were they
also made for more or less good reasons or evil. Also, I know
Saurons hand never touched the 3 did he touch the 9 or the 7 (Before
he recovered them)

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 86 23:56:00 GMT
From: nucsrl!ragerj@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages

I can't read Quenya at all but after a little thought I'd guess that
is a translation of the inscription on the ruling ring.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 86 19:38:39 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkienmania!

nj%eris@BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>Since we seem to be hip-deep in identity questions, can anyone tell
>me what happened to each of the Silmarils?  This is kind of a
>technical question and I would be able to answer it if I had the
>Silmarillion right next to me, but unfortunately a friend from
>Missouri borrowed it for the summer and right now I'm in
>California.  A friend of mine thinks someone still has one of the
>Silmarils, but I disagree.

   One was cast into the Sea, one was swallowed by a great fissure
in the earth, and the third is carried by Earendil as he sails the
heavens. The light of it is often seen in the morning or evening and
is called the Morning/Evening Star. Some of this light was caught by
Galadriel and set in a phial of magic water which was given to
Frodo.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 20:01:06 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: Tolkienmania!

Easy question...  One of them is in the air, circling middle-earth
on a ship.  The other two were tossed into the sea and down a crack
in the earth by the two remaining sons of Feanor.

The person in charge with sailing the ship with the Silmaril is, I
believe, the son of Huor and Idril.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 00:14:19 GMT
From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages

ragerj@nucsrl.UUCP writes:
>I can't read Quenya at all but after a little thought I'd guess
>that is a translation of the inscription on the ruling ring.

Oi!  Great grief, Sauron would not use Quenya on that little project
of his.  The inscription was in the Black Tongue.  The script was
admittedly done with the Feanorian characters; but then the Ring was
intended to *look* fair, and a scrawly debasement would hardly do.
(Though it does make me wonder that such foul *sounds* would then be
acceptable---but I never claimed to understand balrogs.)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 17:03:24 GMT
From: rayssd!djb@caip.rutgers.edu (Douglas J. Bonn, Esq.)
Subject: Re: Tolkienmania (really history of the Silmarili)

The history of the Silmarili goes like this:

1) Feanor creates the Silmarili.
2) Varda (Elbereth) hallows the Silmarili (this produces the effect
   that if anyone touches them under "improper" circumstances, that
   the Silmarili will burn them).
3) Morgoth steals the Silmarili.
4) The Noldor rebel to get them back and are cursed.
5) Beren and Luthien manage to steal a Silamril.
6) Beren gives the Silmaril to Thingol.
7) Thingol employs dwarves to put the Silmaril into the dwarf
   necklace called the Nauglamir.
8) The dwarves kill Thingol to get the Nauglamir ("So that's why
   Legolas and Gimli were so hostile early in the Fellowship...").
9) Beren and the Ents retrieve the Nauglamir/Silmaril from the
   dwarves.
10) Beren and Luthien die and leave the Silmaril to their son Dior.
11) Dior gives the Silmaril to his daughter Elwing who married
    Earendil (the mother and father of Elrond).
12) Dior is killed by the Sons of Feanor, who fail to get the
    Silmaril.
13) Earendil sails West to enlist the aid of the Valar against
    Morgoth.
14) The remaining Sons of Feanor attack the Havens--Elwing and the
    Silmaril escape over the Sea to Earendil (with some help from
    Ulmo).
15) Earendil manages to sail over the Sea using the power of the
    Silmaril.
16) The Varlar launch Earendil's Star: A "ship" containing Earendil
    and the Silmaril. It is light from this star that is captured by
    Galadriel in the Phial given to Frodo. ("Why, Master, we're in
    the same story still!" said Samwise.)
17) The Valar aid the Men and Elves and kick Morgoth's proverbial
    butt.
18) Some Elves of the undying lands guard the Silmarili, claimed by
    the two remaining Sons of Feanor, who steal them and kill them.

19) Since the various land masses were messed up in the battle, and
    there were many pools and crevices available, and further that
    the Sons of Feanor are burned by their respective Silmarili,
    they each dropped theirs into a sea and a crevice.

So the Silmarili ended up one in the "air", one in the water, and
one in the earth.  (Hmm.. pretty good for off the top of my head and
after at least 7 years..!)

Douglas Bonn  401-847-8000x3991
Raytheon Co/Submarine Signal Div/1847
W Main Rd/Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087
{allegra|raybed2|brunix|linus}!rayssd!djb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jun 86 0809-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #143
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:

             Books - Herbert & Rice & Vance (3 msgs) &
                     Wolfe & Funny SF,
             Films - Warriors of the Wind

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 18:40:58 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Herbert's Jorj X. McKie

I keep seeing references to The Dosadi Experiment as a sequel to
Whipping Star.  Not so.  TDE was written first and serialized.  I
thought it was so good that I bought it when it came out in
paperback.  I bought WS because it was a prequel.  In my opinion,
it's better suited for wrapping dead fish.  Or amphibians.  S&M for
sentient solarians, forsooth!  Herbert was one of those authors who
bear great resemblances to the little girl with the curl in the
middle of her forehead.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 15:32:11 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE VAMPIRE LESTAT by Anne Rice

                  THE VAMPIRE LESTAT by Anne Rice
                            Knopf, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Ten years ago, Anne Rice wrote INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE, in
which we met Louis the vampire and saw vampire life from the other
side, a la Saberhagen's THE DRACULA TAPES.  But where THE DRACULA
TAPES was just DRACULA retold from the vampire's point of view,
INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE created a new mythology for vampires,
separate from Stoker's Transylvanian milieu.  Rice based her
vampires in New Orleans, and of French origin.  Her goal was not to
horrify, but to show that vampires are people too.  And like normal
people, they have rivals.  Louis's rival was the vampire Lestat.

     Now, ten years later, Rice introduces us to Lestat and we learn
his side of the story, his background.  And eventually we (and he)
meet Marius, a yet older vampire who relates the origins of the
vampire race.  (I can't help but predict that the promised third
novel in the series will show us the early days of the vampires
firsthand.  If it takes another ten years for that novel, no one
reading this prediction will even remember it to point out how wrong
I was.)

     The framing sequence, set in modern San Francisco, is passable.
It is the main body of the novel, the story of Lestat's "conversion"
and existence in pre-Revolutionary France and Europe, which
fascinates the reader.  And, of course, Marius's story of *his*
early existence and the origin of "homo vampiris" is almost a novel
in itself.  (THE VAMPIRE LESTAT is nearly twice the length of
INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE.)

     I don't want to reveal too much of the plot, since much of the
enjoyment (at least for me) comes from the gradual revelations,
almost like peeling off the layers of an onion.  Rice is able to
show us many kinds of vampires, as distinct from each other in
nature as human beings are.  We do not see the sameness of character
that most vampire stories show us.  Some of Rice's vampires are full
of conscience and get their "kills" only from thieves and murderers;
others are amoral and seek the young and healthy victim to gain the
greatest strength and sensuality from their blood.  The sensuality
of vampirism is a very strong theme in Rice's novels: the
seductiveness of the powers vampires have, the ecstasy of feeding,
the heightened awareness of one's surroundings that their senses
give vampires.  This is not a child's vampire story.

     I highly recommend this novel.  Your appreciation will be
heightened if you read INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE first, but that
isn't necessary.  I look forward to the third novel--I just hope it
doesn't take another ten years.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 12:44:11 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
Cc: Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.COM, ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

Jack Vance -- nutshell comment: a vastly underrated writer of
fiction in three genres (fantasy, science fiction, mystery) that
deserves to be enjoyed and emulated.

I applaud Gary Allen for making a valiant attempt to call attention
to Jack Vance.  In a world filled with an unimaginative repetition
of "pulp" themes, Jack Vance stands out as unique artist (though he
calls himself, jokingly, a "crap-artiste").  Those of my friends
that I have coerced into reading Vance either loved him or hated
him, but no one was BORED by him.  Though you may not like the way
Vance writes, you must admit that his writing IS different.

Unfortunately, Mr. Allen's offering has a few errors, and a major
omission.

The ommission is that Mr. Allen does not include the mysteries
written by John Holbrook Vance (his real name -- Jack is a pen
name.)  Perhaps Mr. Allen felt it inappropriate to mention mystery
writing in a SF-DIGEST.  But, if we are going to discuss Jack Vance,
we might as well call attention to all of his work.

Some other omissions:

- Jack Vance is one of the few writers (one of two?  Help me out,
Michael) to win a Hugo, a Nebula, AND an Edgar (mystery award) --
but not for the same book, of course.

- "The Last Castle" won BOTH the Hugo and the Nebula.

- The novel "To Live Forever" was omitted from Mr. Allen's list.

There are other minor errors, but I am sure others will point them
out in due course.

Now, it's opinion time.

"The Dirdir" the best science fiction novel?  I can't agree.  It's
good, as is the whole series, if you don't mind mind-boggling
anti-climaxes (a common Jack Vance stylistic trademark) -- but to my
mind, "Emphyrio" is Jack Vance's best novel of any genre, which is
saying a lot.  The story is tacitly science fiction, but is more a
character study, with a theme common to many of Vance's stories: a
man strives to do what he does best, against adversity.

If you like stylistic, antique (reminiscent of Dickens and Voltaire)
humour that makes you THINK, and delight in the antics of a
dishonorable, low-down, conceited, self-centered, stinking rat fink
anti-hero, you will love the Dying Earth stories that include Cugel
 the Clever ("The Eyes of the Overworld" and "Cugel's Saga").  There
are very few books that have made me laugh out loud, but these two
had me rolling on the floor!

I disagree with Mr. Allen's ratings in several instances.  While we
seem to agree that "The Dying Earth" books are his best series, I
think the "The Demon Princes" is his second best series of books
(though, once again, they all suffer from groan-worthy
anti-climaxes), especially "The Face".  What a profound imagination!
If you enjoy revenge stories, read Demon Princes.  The footnotes are
possibly the most entertaining parts of the books!

I haven't read "Lyonesse" yet (I try to wait for a series to be
completely published and then read the whole thing as one rather
than read each book as it is published, lest I lose the story line
-- a policy that nearly killed me waiting for the legendary third
book of Asimov's robot mysteries!), but I doubt that it would
deserve a 0!  "Wyst: Alastor 1716" deserves the lowest rating, much
to my chagrin.  For some reason, Vance got interested in political
commentary in the seventies.  "Wyst" is a thinly veiled criticism
(via absurdism) of Communism.  That wouldn't be so bad if the story
hadn't been sacrificed for the sake of the moral.

I enjoy reading Jack Vance's work and sharing my opinions with other
Vance fans.  Perhaps Gary Allen can organize an informal discussion
-- offline?

Perry Caro
caro.osbunorth@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jun 86 16:43:47 cet
From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Additional novels omitted from an earlier survey on the works

Since submitting my original list of books by Jack Vance I have been
informed of some omissions.  These omitted books are listed and
rated below.  Jack Vance also writes mystery novels which I have not
tabulated.  Underwood-Miller has recently published several of Jack
Vance's short stories in book form.  These are not included in this
compilation.  With the exception of the Lyonesse Series, ALL of
Vance's novels and short stories are readable.  Vance underwent a
change in writing style from the mid 1950s to the mid 1960s.  His
post transition novels tend to be more fun to read.  However even
very early works like "Big Planet" are a pleasure to read.

TITLE          DATE PUBLISHED    RATING (0-10, 10=best)
                                        (* = Not rated)

Monsters in Orbit        1952            *
To Live Forever          1956            7
Maske: Thaery            1976            8
Best of Jack Vance       1976            *

On the rating system used a 6 or better is recommended.

Gary A. Allen, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 00:03:28 GMT
From: chabot@miles.dec.com
Subject: Re: Commentary and rating about Jack Vance

You've neglected John Holbrook Vance: _The_Four_Johns_ (Ellery
Queen), _The_Fox_Valley_Murders_, and _The_Pleasant_Grove_Murders_.
They're mysteries, but they're all Vance (actually,
_The_Pleasant_Grove_Murders_ does have a woman from another planet).
And after all, many Vance science fiction contain mystery plots.
Not to mention _Bad_Ronald_, which I believe my copy at home says
"Jack Vance".  _Bad_Ronald_ is rather creepy, and more suspense than
mystery.

_Vandals_of_the_Void_ is a juvenile, so be warned before you buy.

_Big_Planet_ was out in '78 or '79 from an English paperback house,
but I believe DAW has neglected it?

I disagree that Lyonesse should be avoided: the poignancy of
Suldrun's solution I found had affected me for awhile.  I also
enjoyed in the latest volume watching the green pearl draw in
victims.  I tend to avoid the jerks-with-swords (unless they're from
Scribblies :-) ) or wands, and turn green if I hit one by mistake.
I will continue to buy the next Vance in this line at least one
beyond a bad one that might happen (I can't expect everything to
suit *my* tastes, but then I won't expect everything not to,
either).  I read good (as I see/like it) fantasy, not all fantasy.

For a metric on my tastes, my enduring favorite is probably
_Emphyrio_, because of its emotional rushes.  I consider
_Monsters_in_Orbit_, _The_Brains_of_Earth_, and
_Vandals_of_the_Void_ to be weak.

It should be pointed out that _Cugel's_Saga_ is a sequel to
_The_Eyes_of_the_Overworld_.  I don't know if Cugel's morals
improve, but most everyone else's that he meets are even worse.
_The_Dying_Earth_ and _Rhialto_the_Marvellous_ contain no Cugel.

Be warned about an average (but not all pervasive) sexist slant in
the science fiction and fantasy.  (Men do things, women are
alluring, &tc.)

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 22:46:46 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: BOtNS (again?!)

patcl@hammer.UUCP writes:
>I was just going to let this pass into ~/News/septictank when my BS
>daemon went crazy at the mention of Gene Wolfe. It is appropriate
>that krantz@csd2 should use Wolfe to support his views. Wolfe's
>writing is either "literature" or it is boring dreck. I subscribe
>to the latter interpretation. Yet, somehow, much writing that is
>deliberately turgid and weighed down with excess static verbiage
>(while short on real ideas) is termed by some to be "literature";
>those who declare it

Feh.  Wolfe uses words which seem like static verbiage (but in fact
are obsolete/archaic terms, etc. to be found in any good dictionary)
to give the sense of a world like ours but DIFFERENT.  The words
convey a flavor.  This is USING the language, not merely writing in
it.  I wasn't too impressed with the plot, but I don't enjoy that
kind of story.  I can still see the craftsmanship -- he doesn't tell
a story with words, he uses words to help create the imagery for the
story.  Let the words SHOW YOU his world.  It works believe me --
BOtNS successfully visualizes a strange, altered world, much like
ours, but every time it seems to become familiar, it shows you
another strange facet.  It's also consistent, which is missing in
many books.  And while I don't much enjoy the kind of story BOtNS is
telling, Wolfe is telling it well (as shown by the fact that,
despite my not liking that kind of story, I read three of the four
books.  Rare, considering that I knew from the start (from the net)
what it was -- normally I may start but I won't last through the
first chapter.

THIS is literature.  Not just telling a story, but telling it with
everything, including the words themselves.  (Unfortunately, too
many people don't know their own language well enough to understand
what's going on.  And too many *authors* don't know their own
language well enough to successfully write in this manner.)

Poe used English in much the same way.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 18:07:02 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Funny SF

I have waited for others to mention it, but nobody has.  There is a
terriffic anthology of *funny* SF short stories edited by Groff
Conklin.  Since my copy has vanished, I can't tell you just when it
was published--late 60s or early 70s, I would think.

My own personal vote for the funniest SF novel ever is the Niven and
Gerrold _Flying Sorcerors_.  At the first reading, the
deconsecration of the housetree made me laugh *helplessly* for at
least 5 minutes--I almost fell in the floor; I did cry and get a
stitch in my side.  Several other passages were definitely laugh out
loud material.

Somebody *finally* mentioned (R. A.) Lafferty, though his specialty
is more whimsy than humor.  Avram Davidson is another writer of
whimsy, and quite good at it.  Though Heinlein's _Glory Road_ is an
all-time favorite of mine, I find it less humorous than tinged with
self-deprecating humor.  But the banquet with the poetry contest is
pretty funny, come to think of it (haven't reread it in years).

I do not find Anthony funny, nor even particularly readable.  There
is a good bit of subtle humor in R. A. McAvoy's books, particularly
in _The Book of Kells_, which (contrary to a recent allegation
posted) is *not* a historical romance, but a time-travel story with
romance falling behind feats of valor in importance.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 15:53:00 GMT
From: dnichols@ti-csl
Subject: Re: Where can I find Warriors of the Wi

>From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste DTN522-2590)
>I have seen several references to a video of Warriors_of_the_Wind.
>All the references have recommended the video so I have attempted
>to find it.  It is NOT at my neighborhood video store.  It is not
>even on the list of available videos from the local chain "Sound
>Warehouse".  Can anyone reccomend a video chain that has this video
>in their catalog and available for ordering or viewing?
>
>I live in Colorado so Boston, LA, or New York stores probably won't
>help.

I doubt if you will find it anywhere locally. I would suggest you
try mail ordering it from either

Books Nippon             or   Japan Video
532 W 6th St                  1731 Buchanan St.
Los Angeles, CA 90014         San Francisco, CA 94115
                              415-563-5220

Let us or me know if you have any luck. I have been contemplating
trying to order the original Japanese version, but just haven't done
it, yet.

Dan Nichols
POB 226015 M/S 238
Texas Instruments Inc.
Dallas, Texas 75266
USENET: {ctvax,im4u,texsun,rice}!ti-csl!dnichols
ARPA:  Dnichols%TI-CSL@CSNet-Relay
CSNET: Dnichols@Ti-CSL
VOICE: (214) 995-6090
COMPUSERVE: 72067,1465

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jun 86 0830-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #144
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:

              Books - Card & Heinlein & Recent Reads &
                      Codex Seriphinianus & 
                      Generation Ship Stories &
                      Book Request & Herd Aliens & 
                      Footfall (2 msgs),
              Films - Alexander Nevsky,
              Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Conventions &
                      Copyright Information

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 20:34:23 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card

leeper@mtgzz writes:
>Ender's abilities are just too unbelievable for his age.  Even
>assuming that Ender has the best training possible and that the
>world has a much expanded population to choose from, it is still
>extremely unlikely that there would be someone as young as Ender
>with his abilities.

Remember that Ender was the product of an world-wide breeding
project for geniuses -- and that he was the finest subject in the
history of the project.  The others were good -- just not good
enough.  Consider Alexander the Great, who was the result of
unassisted genetics and low-technology training, who died extremely
young (20?) and yet managed to forge the largest empire in the world
during his time.  Now consider Ender, who was the result of applied
genetics, advanced military training, and high-technology
psychological conditioning -- it's not unreasonable to conclude that
he would have extraordinary abilities.

>A good strategy will help a lot, and some commanders might have
>runs of good luck and win many battles, but eventually the law of
>large numbers takes over.

All other things being equal, the side with the most powerful forces
will usually win, but all other things are not equal when one side
has a brilliant commander and/or innovative tactics.  The ability to
use the unexpected and unconventional is critical.  If superior
force leads to victory over superior tactics, then we would have
lost the American Revolution, and we would have won the Vietnam War.

>It is worth reading but not Hugo material.

I disagree -- I think that this novel is both Hugo and Nebula
material.  Obviously other people feel the same way, as Ender's Game
has won the Nebula and has been nominated for a Hugo.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Jun 1986 08:25:36-PDT
From: parodi%siva.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John H. Parodi)
Subject: GULF

Many years ago, someone told me that Heinlein's _GULF_ was written
as a contest entry.  It was alleged that the title of the story was
chosen by the editor of an SF magazine, that the contest was for
professional SF writers, and that Heinlein's entry was the winner.
Can anyone confirm or deny or provide details?

[In Heinlein's story, "gulf" referred to the the large and
ever-widening gap between homo sapiens and homo superior.  I would
be very impressed if it turned out that this excellent story was
spun off of a one-word suggestion.]

JP

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 22:00:15 GMT
From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner)
Subject: Recent Reads

When an author tries to write a "big story" - one that covers
lifetimes, great distances, and whole societies - he faces a
problem.  Normally he uses a character viewpoint.  This gives the
writing a personal aspect that makes it accessible (and involving)
to the reader.  But no single character lives a thousand years nor
sees all the workings of his society.

There are two ways to solve this problem.  The first is to extend
the character's lifetime, either directly or by following (for
instance) a chain of characters from a single family.  The other
solution is to follow many different characters as they each spy
some portion of the story, and then to somehow draw these story
lines together in a climax.

The first solution has been more popular in SF, first because
extending a character's lifetime is easy in SF, and secondly because
it is arguably the easier of the two solutions for an author to
handle.  The classic version of the extended-life approach to a big
story is Robert Heinlein's Lazarus Long.  It's been a long time
since I read the various Lazarus Long stories, but I'd say that
Bruce Sterling's _Schismatrix_ compares well.  It moves at a fast
pace; it is fairly packed with inventiveness, and you come away
feeling that as Man expands into Space, history will become more
reckless.

In _Schismatrix_, the main character - he goes by a number of names
- fights his way through various societal changes in the post-Space
human culture.  Mankind has inhabited the solar system and split
into two opposing camps, the Mechanists and the Lifers (?).  The
Mechanists seek life extension and control of the universe through
technology, and the Lifer's seek advancement through biology.  Why
the two camps are at such odds isn't precisely clear, but they
battle for control of the Solar System.  The Earth is a backwater;
it is the colonies around Saturn, Jupiter and in the asteroids that
are the real prize.  All of this is interrupted by the arrival of
aliens, who turn out to be more mercenary than mercenaries, and the
whole makes for an interesting read.

The other approach is exemplified by _The Eleven Million Mile High
Dancer_ by Carol Hill.  (Though obviously science fiction, this book
is being carried as popular fiction.)  It tells the story of a
female astronaut, Amanda Jaworski, who gets involved in events of
previously unknown strangeness when launched towards Mars.

In the "entwining threads" approach to telling a big story, the
author starts off telling several different, not apparently related
stories, that converge as the book precedes, until they are all one
story line by the climax.  The author's point is to reveal to the
reader how all this apparently divergent things are one; hopefully
the reader learns something from this and is enlightened.  However,
it is all too easy for the author to construct a story where the
connections between the story lines are based on "tricks" or not
particularly enlightening relationships.

_The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ falls prey to this trap.  It's
a fast-paced, jam-packed book, but the connections are obscure to
the reader largely because the author keeps the reader in ignorance.
As connections are revealed they are largely anti-climatic.  The
other danger in this form of storytelling is that the reader will be
so confused during the early parts of the novel (as it jumps from
story line to story line) that he'll abandon the novel before any
synthesis begins.  And I must admit that I nearly abandoned _The
Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ for this very reason.

Despite these problems, _The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer_ is not
altogether a bad read, and if you like the mainstream approach to
fantastic subjects you'll probably find this worth your while (in
paperback).

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  (now) srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA  (soon) srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
HAIRNET:  ...!{clairol,tegrin}!srt@hairnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Jun 86 11:01:15-PDT
From: Brian Bishop <BISHOP@USC-ECL.ARPA>
Subject: Codex Seriphinianus in L.A. area....

     For those of you in the L.A. area who are interested in the
Codex Seriphinianus, I stumbled across it by accident after
searching for it unsuccessfully for two weeks.  The place is called
The Soap Factory, and it has a great deal of fun stuff.  It is
located in the 7400 Block of Melrose Ave.  It is indeed an amazing
book.  One of my favorites is the people that burst into tigers.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 01:43:35 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro)
Subject: Re: Generation-ship stories?

One I can think of that talked a little about it was James White's
_sector_general_ series.

Spec. ref: _ambulance_ship_ (I think) where they found the
*Einstein*

Hope that's of any help.

Phone:  (617) 937-0551
USMail: P.O.Box 8524
        Lowell, Ma. 01853
E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 02:54:46 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro)
Subject: trying to find a book...

I have been trying to locate a book for a while now. I know it
exists, having owned it a one point. It vanished from my library
just prior to my last move. None of the people (whom I KNOW have
read it) that I talk to can remember it. I cannot find it in
_Books_in_Print_. HELP!!!

I don't remember the author but the title was:

        _Children_of_the_Griffon_  (no relation)

I am not sure of the author's spelling of the last word (ie. whether
s/he got it right or not).

Anyone out there knowing anything of this please help.

Thanx in advance.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 16:56:38 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Humans vs Herd Aliens

Intelligent herd/hive society  (mild spoiler:

ENDER'S GAME, this year's nebula winner, by Orson Scott Card.

Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 86 18:19:26 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Niven & Pournelle's Footfall

I've read Footfall rather recently, and agree with the reviewer here
in SF-L who characterized it as reminiscent of Lucifer's Hammer.
The element in Lucifer's Hammer which was clearly absent from
Footfall was that of the roving feral humans.  I didn't find
anything missing from the ending.  It seemed adequate to me, except

                   *******SPOILER WARNING*******

that I could have enjoyed, I think, a bit more about what the humans
on the snouts' ship did after the surrender.  Did the humans against
aliens collapse as rapidly as one might anticipate from the
monumental paranoia which Pournelle attributes to the Soviets?  And
were they successful at retrieving the survivors from Michael?  And
what happen edto the military types back on earth for bucking the
Prez?  It sounds to me like they're deliberately leaving room for a
sequel.

                      ******END SPOILER*******

Sorry that this and other responses are so late.  I've been running
weeks behind on my e-mail for several months now.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jun 86 18:18:20 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Footfall 'snouts'

From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>how in the world did we get those space shuttles up into
>space?  Did they go up on Michael

Yes.  Michael was described as a flat steel plate, with a
hemispherical detonation chamber underneath.

>how did they get from Florida to Bellingham without being
>bombarded?

I presume in ships labeled with the "friendly snout".  Remember that
this symbol was to be used only for food, medicines, etc.  Remember
that when Michael was authorized, they said that they would have to
police that *others* did not misuse the symbol because they would
have to misuse it themselves for the project.

From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
>Arthur C. Clarke ... was lamenting the fact that man hadn't
>domesticated any new animals in recorded history.  He suggested
>that it might be nice to ... tinker with an elephant ... Does this
>sound a bit familiar?

It may sound familiar, but I wouldn't expect that there is any
relationship.  Didn't you (and others who have speculated snidely
about other sources of the alien concepts) read the
Acknowledgements?

Niven and Pournelle credit Bonnie Dalzell with the concept of their
aliens.  Dalzell is a Ph.D. candidate in comparative vertebrate
anatomy at Penn.  She TA's comparative anatomy for vet students.
She is also an artist of some note, and has had contracts from the
Canadian government to reassemble skeletons of extinct animals
(dinosaurs and mastodons).  She is a dog breeder of some years
standing (15+).  I am assuming that the dog breeder in the story is
*intended* as a compliment to her.  I haven't talked to her since I
read the story--we tend to get too far into abstruse subjects at
long distance rates--but I'm sure they didn't ask her to look at the
parts about the dog breeder.  There is one totally egregious error.

Nonetheless, if their other acknowledgements are of individuals as
knowledgeable in their areas as Dalzell, they consulted a stellar
array of experts.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 13:46:10 GMT
From: unc!hultquis@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey P. Hultquist)
Subject: Re: Star Wars

>>HIDDEN FORTRESS is out on cassette and I have been meaning to
>>write a review of it.  It actually is not that close to STAR WARS.
>
>Well, not to say that any movie with two humorous peasants, a
>powerful stranger and a princess is STAR WARS, but certainly all
>the plot elements are there.  You were expecting maybe a
>scene-for-scene comparison like SEVEN SAMURAI and MAGNIFICENT
>SEVEN?  ...

ALEXANDER NEVSKY by Sergei Eisenstein has a great many parallels to
STAR WARS (actually, the other way around, since NEVSKY was filmed
in the late Thirties.)  In particular, the two humorous peasants,
Teutonic "stormtroopers", and a priest that looks just like the
Emperor.

Jeff P.M. Hultquist
hultquis@unc
decvax!mcnc!unc!hultquis

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 21:17:48 GMT
From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl)
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had been
studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter and
two of her teachers.  Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also a Time
Lord, or does it require some special training?

Cheryl

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 18:06:00 GMT
From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Who again?

> I seem to recall seeing a quote from JN-T that they had thought to
> replace Peter Davidson with a female, but that 'Tradition' or
> whatever won out and they picked Colin Baker instead.

Not quite.  This was a small joke which JN-T and Tom Baker decided
to play on the British media and public.  It actually took place
after Tom Baker decided to leave -- in a press conference, he said
that he wishes the next person playing the Doctor the best luck,
"whomever he or she may be."  JN-T then agreed with this.

Not surprisingly, the British papers all had on their headlines the
next day, "Next Doctor Who to be Played by a Woman."

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 02:13:45 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro)
Subject: Re: Southern California Conventions

Could someone please do a similar thing for cons in the uppen NE
corner [New England, New York, New Jersey, and Penn.] please?

I have tried to reach this mysterious list and can't.

Thanx in advance.

Phone:  (617) 937-0551
USMail: P.O.Box 8524
        Lowell, Ma. 01853
E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 17:00:09 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Copyright Page Info (reposting)

Copyright notice must contain the first publication date of the work
in question.  When verbatim chunks have appeared previously (e.g.,
as separate short stories) then the copyright information about
previous publications is required.  When a complete re-write has
been done (e.g. ENDER'S GAME), no notice is required, since the
copyright law treats this as a new work.

Robert J. Sawyer
Member, SFWA
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jun 86 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #145
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:

            Books - Cherryh & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Rice &
                    Vance & Funny SF & Footfall,
            Films - Barbarella & Star Trek IV
            Television - Star Trek & Doctor Who (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 11:55:16 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: CUCKOO'S EGG by C. J. Cherryh (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads, in part:

  "His name was known throughout the world: Duun, hero, whose
  scarred face and body represented a dire threat narrowly averted;
  Duun, hatani, one of those superbly trained individuals revered by
  all the shonunin as mystic, warrior, guardian and judge. Out of
  respect and tradition they would refuse him nothing. But in this
  case, even the few longtime acquaintances who might have been
  considered friends -- if hatani permitted themselves to form
  friendships -- would have prefereed to grant almost any other
  request. Still, they gave him the infant to raise as he wished,
  and he took the child far away from civilization to Sheon, where
  he had spent his own childhood.

  Duun called the boy Thorn, forcing himself to overcome his natural
  repugnance for the tiny creature's strange, hairless body -- like
  something freshly skinned; the alien ears and hands and eyes that
  brought back so many disturbing, painful memories.

  Thorn grew strong under Duun's careful guidance. At first his
  education was as basic as any child's. He would run after Duun on
  short baby legs until, exhausted, he could run no farther....  As
  years passed the training intensified. The boy learned of weapons
  and the suffering they could inflict; he learned to hunt, when the
  alternative was to go hungry; he learned mathematics; and he
  learned to endure, because Duun would not let him give up. Above
  all, he learned to be always alert and wary...never to trust
  anything or anyone. Not even Duun himself."

The story takes place on an alien world, and Thorn is the only
human. One learns bits and pieces of the culture as the story
progresses, but the emphasis is on the relationship between Thorn
and Duun. What little technology is revealed doesn't seem to be all
that different from our own.

Duun's character seems to be drawn from Eastern Zenn warrier
philosophers, which is interesting, though not exciting. Since there
is not a great deal of dialogue between Thorn and Duun, Thorn's
thoughts are very often put in parentheses, something which got to
grate on my nerves.

There's not much action. The characters are mildly interesting, but
I never developed much sympathy for either. The world is mildly
interesting, but not a lot was revealed about it. I always felt like
an outsider, and the climax took too long to reach and didn't pack
the uumph it should have.

I give this book 2.5 stars out of 4.0 (it's fair, but I'll
definitely trade it in).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 86 21:20:53 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: GULF

>From: parodi%siva.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John H. Parodi)
>Many years ago, someone told me that Heinlein's _GULF_ was written
>as a contest entry.  It was alleged that the title of the story was
>chosen by the editor of an SF magazine, that the contest was for
>professional SF writers, and that Heinlein's entry was the winner.
>Can anyone confirm or deny or provide details?

The actual story behind Gulf is this: It appeared in the Nov 1949
issue of ASF.  (Maybe Oct, I'm working from memory.)  It was an
unusual issue.  For one thing, all of the stories were by "name"
writers.  For another, it was the only issue of ASF ever to have two
serials in it.  Also, the Campbell editorial is an interesting one
on how science fiction could be a self fulfilling prophecy, and
(without explanation) gave that issue as an example.  Finally, there
is the fact in a letter dated Nov 1948, and published early in 1949,
someone sent in a "review" of the 1949 issue, complete with all
authors and their respective titles.

JWC had gotten all of the authors in that letter (which was
unsolicited) to write stories with those titles; since two people
wrote long stories, this caused the two serials.  Thus the title did
come first with Gulf.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu
Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf
Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 86 02:54:21 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: GULF

Okay, let's see if it will work this time: I'm new to this sort of
thing.  About GULF: A fan, as a lark, wrote a letter to John W.
Campbell, Jr., in which he detailed the contents of ASTOUNDING for
the next year.  He commented on stories by del Rey, Sturgeon,
Heinlein, and others, plus made remarks about the cover artist
(whose name slips me.)  Campbell thereupon got each of the writers
named to write a story using the fan's titles; and the
aforementioned artist to do the cover.  GULF was Heinlein's
contribution.  Hope that helps.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 17:52:38 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: THE VAMPIRE LESTAT by Anne Rice

Actually, according to interviews with Ms Rice (some of them done
quite some while ago) at least three books were planned from the
start.  She decided to delay the second book so she could write some
other things and not get "pigeonholed" as a vampire writer.

The other interesting point that ECLeeper does not bring up is that
Rice's vampires are subtly but clearly gay.

DJ Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 86 17:09:34 cet
From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Further remarks about Jack Vance and response to other
Subject: readers

When this current discussion on Jack Vance concludes I shall
resubmit the original list of books with the additions provided by
other readers of SF-LOVERS.  This updated list should be helpful to
readers of one of SF's great authors, Jack Vance.  R. Ditch in his
response to the original note asks for clarification on my
preferences.  This seems a rather futile activity since it all boils
down to a question of taste which will always be subjective.  I am
currently reading _Big_Planet so I can not rate this novel or
comment on it.  However _Big_Planet is early Vance (1952), so it
seems strange to me why anyone would prefer it over Vance's later
and more polished works.  _Rhialto_the_Marvellous is Vance's latest
work and it reflects the over thirty years of science fiction
writing behind it.  _Rhialto is a quasi-fantasy.  I employ the word
"quasi", because Vance is using the old device of presupposing a
technology so advanced that it is indistinguishable from magic.
Also the work is mainly a farce, and satirizes the concepts of
fantasy, which to my mind justifies the use of this literary form.
I am of the opinion that "pure fantasy" has had a generally negative
effect on SF.  Pure fantasy has brought in a lower class of
readership and has unfortunately provided an economic incentive for
master authors like Vance, Silverburg and others to write fantasy
rather than SF.  J.R.R. Tolkien is the only pure fantasy author
who's works seem to have been a real benefit to SF.  However Tolkien
was a philologist and a first rate scholar.  His books were a labor
of love and scholarship and not a simple desire to rake in cash from
simpletons.  Steven Grady's remarks on the _The_Gray_Prince are of
interest. _The_Gray_Prince and _Wyst:_Alastor_1716 are two examples
of where Vance trips over his own politics.  In both novels he is
pushing some of his political ideology (which is conservative) and
the plot suffers as a result.  However I enjoyed both books.  They
simply were not Vance's best.  Since Steven Grady lives in Berkley,
I suggest that he can find Vance novels at "Future Fantasy" on El
Camino Real in Palo Alto.  The owner of "Future Fantasy" is another
Vance fanatic.  He can also write to Underwood and Miller who are
publishers of first edition Vance novels.  These novels are a bit
pricey but are of extreme quality.  This publishing house seems to
have been formed for the specific purpose of publishing Vance novels
in long life acid free books (Yes, people are that fanatic about
Jack Vance).  I've bought most of their stuff and am trying to form
a complete collection of Vance first editions.  Perry A. Caro's
views on Vance closely parallels my own.  Perry, could you scan my
list and remark upon (and evaluate) novels that I have marked with
an "*" ?

Gary A. Allen, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 22:52:37 GMT
From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Funny SF

ellis@sage.UUCP (Sean Ellis) writes:
>>... I couldn't get into _Star Smashers etc_ at all. It was too
>>much like
>> Heinlein...
>
>Heinlein ??? THE Robert A Heinlein, or Joseph Q Heinlein, the
>famous Dutch author who no-one else has ever heard of ???? :-) It
>is obviously written in the style of E.E.'Doc' Smith ! ( cf Skylark
>series) Try reading it sometime... the similarity will astound you.

Maybe Doc Smith---or *maybe* the great guru of SF, John W. Campbell,
Jr.?  What do you think net-landers?  Has anybody read Campbell's
stuff and liked it?  (Besides me, I mean, I love that kind of
sense-of-science sf.  The new guys like James Hogan and such are
good, but I miss the old days...) (Well, pseudo-science, anyway...)
Be seeing you...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 18:04:51 GMT
From: sunne!z@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Zimmerman)
Subject: Re: Footfall

It has already been noted that some (if not many) of the characters
in Footfall are takeoffs on real people.  But what about Harpanet,
whose name is clearly a takeoff on our beloved DOD network?  His
name doesn't even match the style of the names of the other fithp.
And as I am sure that Pournelle and Niven are quite familiar with
the Arpanet, I can only conclude that this must be intentional.
What does this MEAN?

Steve Zimmerman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Jun 86 15:53:44 EDT
From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: burning BARBARELLA

Fonda's desire to wipe BARBARELLA from the face of the earth
probably has little to do with political correctness (which is a
strange-sounding phrase from someone who wanted her tried for
exercising her rights of free speech and free association). Despite
the fact that she is apparently the sole occupant (and hence,
presumably, pilot) of a substantial spaceship, the film Barbarella
is the sort of airhead who would make the average Valley Girl look
like a substantial citizen.  The film is a travesty even of the
original French comic strip, in which Barbarella is a lusty,
relatively self-willed wench instead of an object acted on by
others.
   The opening scene is worth seeing simply from a technical
viewpoint, though; it's as good a simulation of zero-G as anything
of that period, including 2001.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 11:38:35 GMT
From: danews!trb@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Balent)
Subject: Re: ST IV rumor

From the April 14, 1986 issue of Navy Times, there is a two page
story (with pictures) about the star trek iv film crew filming
aboard the aircraft carrier u.s.s. ranger (cv-61). It seems that
they wanted to film on u.s.s. enterprise (cvn-65), but that ship was
busy somewhere else in the world (i.e. the med). So they made the
ranger look like the enterprise.(?)  If there is enough interest I
will type the whole article in and submit it to the net.

t.balent
at&t-ns columbus

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 1986  12:54 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: STAR TREK/Wars

From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>Last night, when I was watching "Newhart", I caught a doubly-swiped
>line.  I was just considering asking you readers for the line and
>the situation in Star Trek, but I will instead quote the line: "I
>felt a disturbance in the Force." Now, who knows what episode of
>Star Trek Lucas swiped that from?  Not exactly swiped, but close
>enough so that I'm embarrassed that I didn't catch it before.

It's from "Attack of the Giant Amoeba" :-) (Actually, the Immunity
Syndrome, I believe).  'Twas said by Spock at the beginning to start
the whole thing off.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 17:41:06 GMT
From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl)
Subject: Re: Who again?

halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes:
>cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes:
>>It doesn't make sense that when Gallifreyans regenerate, they must
>>always be the same sex that they were before.  Their faces and
>>clothes change.  Even their personalities change.  Why not 'nads?
>>I think this is a far more interesting and relevant question than,
>>"Is the doctor married?"
>
>I seem to recall seeing a quote from JN-T that they had thought to
>replace Peter Davidson with a female, but that 'Tradition' or
>whatever won out and they picked Colin Baker instead.

Ah, so they were willing to *consciously* sacrifice the higher good
of Fairness for the conventional 'good' of "'Tradition' or
whatever...."  (But let's call a spade a spade, shall we?  Sexism
may be 'Tradition', but it's still sexism.)

Susan, the Doctor's grandaughter, would make a far better Time Lord
than this TURKEY of a 6th Doctor.  What kind of self-respecting
Gallifreyan would care to associate himself with that dim-witted
co-ed?  O.K. so Dr. #6 really does need someone that stupid around
to make him look good.  Doesn't help much, does it?

Cheryl

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 86 20:25:49 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Who's brother?

> The Master is in no way related to the Doctor. You'll recall that
> in "The Five Doctors," the First Doctor has no idea who the Master
> is when they meet in the Dark Tower.

This doesn't mean that the master can't be a future incarnation of
the doctor himself, in which case they might be said to be
"related".

Richard Hoffman
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 86 19:41:55 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Future Who

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>> But in the case of the Doctor, an even more interesting
>> possibility presents itself: The Master could be a future
>> regeneration of the doctor!
>
> We all know that the Master's goal in life (besides domination of
> the universe, of course) is the destruction of the Doctor. So if
> the Master is indeed a future Doctor, he would be trying to kill
> himself. And if he succeeded, then how could his future self exsit
> to kill his past self?  Quite a paradox there.

Not necessarily.  Whatever it was that caused the Doctor to become
the Master could have erased his memory of having been the Doctor.
Or, with his incredible knowledge of time loops and so on, the
Master could be aware of a scheme (*far* beyond our comprehension,
of course), which will allow him to dominate the universe *if* he
can accomplish the delicate task of ridding the universe of his past
without ridding it of himself.

"Bosh and bullsnoods"?  This is, after all, a science-fiction show,
and a frequently rather silly one at that.  _Dr. Who_ succeeds in
spite of (and, yes, probably because of) its little scientific
inaccuracies and implausibilities, so why not allow them a big one?

Richard Hoffman
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 86 05:01:24 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

> ...Indeed, can anyone recall seeing a juvenile Time Lord?

Yes: Romana when she first appeared:).  I don't know how the White
Guardian came to choose her, but I think her travelling with the
Doctor was the most fortunate thing that could have happened either
to her or Gallifrey.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jun 86 0834-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #146
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 86 22:58:18 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Of rings

vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:
>friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>>      Because possession isn't enough, a certain knowledge of
>>the Ring and its operation, and a certain "rappor" with it are
>>necessary for its powers to be manifested. At the beginning, Frodo
>>had not "grown" in the power of the Ring enough to use it at all.
>>Also, Lorien is closer to Mount Doom where the Ring was made, thus
>>it was more powerful there.
>
>Why do you think any of this is so? Frodo seemed to be able to use
>the chief powers of the ring all along: the invisiblity, the moving
>to the wraiths plane, and the preservation effects. I know Sauron
>would have derived other powers, but I thought there was a big
>point made about how ultimately only Sauron could use the ring.

The PRIMARY use, that you name above, is (all) related to moving the
wearer into the wraiths' plane.  This is its INTENDED effect on
lesser wearers.  Which is how Nazgul came about in the first place.

Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong wnough to use, included
the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other
Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron.  Re-read the sequence where Frodo
discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring.

But ANY use by any other than Suaron would corrupt the user into a
servant of Sauron.  This is because the power of the ring is in fact
Sauron's own mind, which is why casting the Ring into Orodruin
destroyed Sauron.

>Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just
>make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use?

Both.  Being closer to its source of power (Sauron), it became more
powerful and Sauron became more aware of it (the drain on his own
mind?).

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 86 16:13:27 GMT
From: wjvax!brett@caip.rutgers.edu (Brett Galloway)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) writes:
>What about the 7 and the origanal purpose of the 9? Were they also
>made for more or less good reasons or evil. Also, I know Sauron's
>hand never touched the 3 did he touch the 9 or the 7 (Before he
>recovered them)

I believe that the 9 were made by Sauron to ensnare the Numenoreans;
they were thoroughly bad.  I think that Sauron also had a hand in
the making of the 7, although he didn't make them himself.  They
tended to make the dwarves that possessed them inordinately greedy,
so it was probably a good thing that they were lost as well.

Brett Galloway
{pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!brett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Jun 86 08:41:38 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: Tolkien's Languages

    In (yet another, I'm sure) reply to
psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) here are two
translations of his poem:

> Min corma ilye caanien, Min corma te tuuvien,
> Min corma ilye yalien, Ar mii mornie te mandien.

    Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul,
    ash nazg thratuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!

Or, in Common;

    One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them,
    one Ring to bring them all an in the darkness bind them
  (In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.)

>It should be rather easy if you know any Quenya vocabulary.

   Acutually, anything but a literal, word for word, translation
needs no knowledge of Quenya, but rather a pattern-finding ability
of the simplest form, kind of like the way one solves those
cryptograms in the newspaper.  From close to no mental knowledge
(it's all in books for me) of the language, I reasoned out what it
must be, and checked a few words to be sure.  Of course, if I'm
totally wrong, then I'm a fool, pure and simple.

   As to the meaning of Sarima, well I have no guess on that (not
being a linguist of any sort).  But, perhaps someone can tell me if
my guess about the following phrase, pseudo-invented by my
non-linguistic self, translates back properly into common:

                         Rethin, Guladan!

   It probably doesn't, but maybe I got lucky.  Anyway, thanks for
trying in advance.

John White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 01:50:52 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>What follows is a small poem translated into
>accurate, well-attested High Elvish, that is Quenya. Can anyone out
>there figure out which poem? Even better, translate it?
>
>       Min corma ilye caanien, Min corma te tuuvien,
>       Min corma ilye yalien, Ar mii mornie te mandien.

Even with no vocabulary it would be obvious from the structure that
this is the inscription on the One Ring:

    Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul,
    ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

or, translated from the Orcish,

    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
    One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them.

which in turn is part of a longer verse so well known in Elvish and
even Mannish lore that I will not bother to repeat it.

>For extra credit, what is the meaning of my signature name(Sarima),
>it is also Quenya, but it is not found in this form anywhere in the
>extant corpus. (No fair those of you I have explained it to
>answering!)

    I cannot gloss this even using all the references I have handy.
I will take a guess that it is an extrapolation of what the name
_Saruman_, which means "Man of Skill" in (I think) Sindarin, would
have been in Quenya, based on phonetic transformation, but I am not
sure of that.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 02:26:12 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkienmania!

nj%eris@BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>Since we seem to be hip-deep in identity questions, can anyone tell
>me what happened to each of the Silmarils?  A friend of mine thinks
>someone still has one of the Silmarils, but I disagree.

    Morgoth stole the three Silmarilli and set them in his Iron
Crown.  One of them was stolen from him by Beren and Luthien, and it
was reset in the Nauglamir, the Necklace of the Dwarves, thus
combining the fairest works of the races of Elf and Dwarf.  The
Nauglamir was eventually passed down to Earendil and rides with him
yet through the Sky.
    The other two Silmarilli were not retaken from Morgoth until the
War of Wrath which ended the First Age, in which the Valar entered
into Middle-earth to contend with Morgoth once again.  At that time
Maedhros and Maglor, the two remaining Sons of Feanor, stole the
great jewels which had been their father's greatest creation from
the Valar, and each took one for himself.  But the blessing of Varda
caused the Silmarilli to scorch their hands, for they had become
evil, so that in order to end their torment Maedhros hurled himself
and his gem into a fiery chasm in the Earth, and Maglor cast his
into the Sea.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 86 03:18:37 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien's languages

I write:
>friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>>For extra credit, what is the meaning of my signature
>>name(Sarima)...
>
>    I cannot gloss this even using all the references I have handy.
>I will take a guess that it is an extrapolation of what the name
>_Saruman_, which means "Man of Skill" in (I think) Sindarin, would
>have been in Quenya, based on phonetic transformation, but I am not
>sure of that.

    Of course I immediately remembered the fact that _Saruman_ is in
fact his Mannish name, _Curunir_ being the Elvish, and in fact I
believe it is Quenya.  I concede, and await guesses from others.

pH

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 86 04:51:56 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Phil Paone <paone@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Re: The One Ring

>    What about the 7 and the original purpose of the 9? Were they
>also made for more or less good reasons or evil. Also, I know
>Saurons hand never touched the 3 did he touch the 9 or the 7
>(Before he recovered them)

The creation of the Rings of Power:

0) The Elves, seduced by the still handsome-seeming Sauron,
    cooperate with him in developing the techniques to forge rings
    of power.  None of the rings produced by this collaboration
    apparently was significant to history, though Gandalf regarded
    them all nevertheless as dangerous for mortals to have.

1) The Elves produce, BY THEMSELVES, the three elven Rings: Narya,
   Vilya, and Anya(?).  Their purpose was to help the Elves attain
   that which was dearest to them: knowledge.  I think, in fact,
   that they were produced by the legendary smith Celebrimbor -- one
   of them at least was.  Sauron was entirely absent, nor did his
   hand ever touch the Three.

2) Sauron retires to the Cracks of Doom in Orodruin and forges for
   himself the One Ring, using the secrets gained from the Elves.
   He places in it a large part of his own power (and character).
   He places the Ring on his finger and speaks the inscription.
   Celebrimbor immediately becomes aware of him and what he is done,
   and the Elves know they have been betrayed.  The Three are
   immediately hidden, for nobody can tell what, if any, effect the
   One would have on them.  Some hope it would have none, but many
   are fearful.

3) Sauron moves to seduce the other free races of Middle Earth.  He
   forges the Seven, to be given to the 7 houses of Dwarves, and the
   Nine, to be given to 9 Black Numenorean kings who serve him.
   These Rings are to be slaves to the One, and turn their wearers
   into no more than shadows of Sauron's own will.

   The Nine could hardly succeed better: the nine kings become nine
   terrible, powerful ghosts, the most powerful of all Sauron's
   servants, and the only ones he trusts, since their wills are now
   no more than extensions of his.  They are the Nazgul, the
   Ringwraiths.  (Though I have seen no mention of it, once they
   wore those rings, all their peoples must have belonged utterly to
   Sauron.)  The Nazgul wear the Nine to the moment of their
   destruction in Orodruin's eruption.

   The Seven fail.  Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more
   lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to
   domination.  If anything, they become more secretive, and guard
   their hoards more jealously.  The failure earns the Dwarves
   Sauron's particular hatred.  Enraged, he exerts his power to draw
   the Rings back to him.  Though he is not successful, one or
   another misfortune strikes all the wearers, until the Seven are
   all lost to the Dwarves.  (I believe the last was taken from
   Thrain in Dol Guldur, where Gandalf found him raving, only a
   century or so before Bilbo's first adventure.)

4) When the One Ring is destroyed in Orodruin, the power of the
   Three and all that had been done with them begin to fade, proving
   the fears of the Wise correct.  And I think this is at least part
   of the reason that the start of the Fourth Age sees the end of
   the Elves in Middle Earth.

So: the Elves had nothing to do with the One Ring, and Sauron had
nothing to do with the Three.  And as far as I know, these are the
only rings of power created in Middle Earth (beyond the Elves' and
Sauron's first essays).  Certainly I have not seen any others
mentioned.

BTW, this reminds me of a final point about the One that I should
have mentioned in my previous discussion: besides being designed in
general to give its user the powers of domination, the One was
designed more specifically to be Master to all the others, even (if
Sauron were lucky) the Three: this is what I intended to point out
by quoting the frontispiece.  Certainly the Wise feared that the One
might be able to dominate the Three; they were certain that, if they
were used openly, Sauron would detect them and their wearers, and
their capture would then only be a matter of time.  I wonder if
Sauron ever imagined that Gandalf himself wore one?

I never thought about this before, but it seems to me likely that it
was Galadriel's own power (and that of Caras Galadon, and the star
Earendil) that revealed her Ring to Frodo.  Contact with the One had
sensitised him, certainly, but he was not trying to use it in
Lorien, nor would he ever have wished to.  Gandalf's power, on the
other hand, was mostly concealed: he revealed little of himself,
even to his friends.  Certainly he would never have revealed his
Ring while Sauron still lived, and I think Frodo would not have seen
it unless he had. (Of course, the One would have shown him, had he
used it so; but can you imagine Frodo attempting to command the One
Ring against Gandalf?  Absurd. ) So I think that is why Frodo never
knew it.  And though, in the parting at the Grey Havens, it was
finally revealed, I think the revelation meant less than it formerly
would have because of the degree to which the Rings' power had faded
after the One was destroyed.

I haven't enjoyed posting to sf-lovers so much in ages!  Let's keep
it up!

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 86 01:32:07 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Gandalf and Narya

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:

>So Narya was not at all the right tool for Gandalf to use against
>the Balrog; and certainly fury was alien to its nature.

Nevertheless --

When Gandalf confronts the Balrog he names himself as ``wielder of
the Secret Flame''.  At the time I took it as just a password of
wizardry of some kind...  when I discovered that Gandalf was wearing
Narya, the Ring of Fire, a great light dawned.  But why did Gandalf
virtually give the game away to the Balrog -- a (former) lieutenant
of Melkor, even?!  You would expect that Melkor's followers (the
Balrog of Moria and Sauron) would have kept in touch...

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 86 00:02:38 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Silmarils

sliu@topaz.UUCP writes:
>Easy question...  One of them is in the air, circling middle-earth
>on a ship.  The other two were tossed into the sea and down a crack
>in the earth by the two remaining sons of Feanor.
>
>The person in charge with sailing the ship with the Silmaril is, I
>believe, the son of Huor and Idril.

His name is Earendil; he was Elrond's father.  [I remember that
chiefly bacause of Bilbo's noting in FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING that the
Elves were making comments to him about having ``the cheek to make
songs about Earendil in the house of Elrond''.]

(P.S.  His father was Huor's son Tuor.)

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jun 86 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #147
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:

                Books - Card & Heinlein & Michener &
                        Vance & Anthologies,
                Films - Neuromancer (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Etymology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 86 20:58:45 GMT
From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz)
Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>      ENDER'S GAME is about the training of Ender from age five to
>twelve, teaching him to be a great military genius.  The idea is to
>combine the kid with the best raw material with the best military
>training and end up with not just the world's best 12-year-old
>military commander, but with a commander who cannot lose, period.
>And that is Card's chief failure-- Ender's abilities are just too
>unbelievable for his age.  Even assuming that Ender has the best
>training possible and that the world has a much expanded population
>to choose from, it is still extremely unlikely that there would be
>someone as young as Ender with his abilities.  Ender is never
>convincing as a person of his supposed age.

This might be more a failure on your part, depending on how many
young geniuses you've known.  And how many of them have received
training suited to their talents.

This is a problem of all fiction about exceptional people: it has to
work hard to convince us because we have limited experience outside
our own mediocrity (in most aspects).

>      In addition to this, though I have never seen an analysis, it
>seems that there are theoretical limits to how good a military
>commander can possibly be.  Of course, superior force is a big
>advantage, but the commander who wields it is considered to be
>powerful, not good.  The good commander is one who can be counted
>on to win a higher proportion of the time than would be expected
>from the size of his forces.  The thing is that an army is a
>sufficiently complex organism that it cannot be perfectly predicted
>what it will do.  This is what is wrong with ENDER'S GAME and
>Gordon Dickson's "Dorsai" novels like TACTICS OF MISTAKE.  A good
>strategy will help a lot, and some commanders might have runs of
>good luck and win many battles, but eventually the law of large
>numbers takes over.  A Dorsai can figure out in advance exactly
>what his enemy will do, but that is only because Dickson is
>contriving the situation so that the enemy has only one course of
>action to take.  In real life, commanders use whims and hunches and
>weigh alternatives in ways Dorsai or Ender could not psyche out.
>And armies are not totally obedient monolithic organisms.  One can
>postulate that Card's insect-like Buggers will follow the commands
>of their queen, but Ender is victorious over humans in battle and
>humans are not totally predictable.

I think you misunderstand the theme.  I view the theme as training
to see new strategic possibilities in as-yet poorly understood
situations.  That's why the rules of the games were kept changing.
The goal was to be able to discover offenses and defenses as quickly
as possible as new data about situations becomes available.  Many of
the famous successes of warfare are directly attributable to
understanding novel situations.

I had a similar-flavored experience in college when I was first
introduced to the myriad varieties of fairy chess.  You learn a
different set of skills than when you deeply explore the static rule
system of traditional chess.

>      ENDER'S GAME is a good novel, though the reader becomes
>impatient for something besides training to happen, then it
>concludes itself very quickly.  Saying more than that about the
>structure of the novel would be giving spoiler clues as to how the
>novel turns out.  It is worth reading but not Hugo material.

Did we read the same book?  I considered the ending unusually long
and well- sustained.  Unfortunately, I haven't read the other Hugo
nominees yet, but I consider it a good candidate.  It's one of the
most satisfying SF works I've read this year.

Mike Huybensz
...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 86 10:09:06 EDT
From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RAH universes and...

I haven't read THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS (I've had it with
Heinlein's self-indulgence!) so I can't argue with most of Steven
Jones's carefully assembled arguments in SFL 11.139. However, two
things occur to me:
  1) Hazel Stone's claiming to be an adopted child just doesn't fit
with her stories in ROLLING STONES; my recollection is that she
talks specifically of being a colonist. (I also wonder about the
social change required between MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (women as a
protected species) and RS (Hazel says she left engineering as a
young woman because 3 men -"who couldn't do Xth-order differential
equations without a pencil and paper got promoted over [her]"- ---in
TMIAHM would she have gotten the chance?). In fact, RS is the Moon
as a 1950's American suburb, which should be more than a couple of
generations from the Australian frontier model of TMIAHM.)
  2) RS ties into the main-line universe---the ship has a near-miss
with one of the UN's "peacekeeping" satellites, which are a feature
in SPACE CADET (which memorializes Ezra Dahlquist, one of the heroes
of the Future History).  The satellites could happen elsewhere, but
I don't see the UN being that powerful in the GULF universe.

  Of course, it's Heinlein's universe(s), and if he has the explicit
tie-in Jones mentions arguing with it is probably as futile as
trying to teach a pig to sing. Some authors have the sense not to
try to tie everything together, or say flatly that they aren't
trying to, even with names being reused (Cottman IV is mentioned in
some of Bradley's non-Darkover novels, as is R. R. Kadarin (the one
who finally dies while misusing the sword of Sharra).) Others try,
and make a mess of it (look at the contortions Asimov went through
in ROBOTS AND EMPIRE!  Incidentally, I just reread PEBBLE IN THE
SKY, which I think was his first novel; the decay of the
robot-oriented culture is explicitly mentioned by Bel Arvardan (the
archeologist). So much for all the questions about why there are no
robots on Trantor. There was at least one other story from the 50's
in which it was stated that the Aurorans were a dead end.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 86 14:36 PDT
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL>
Subject: SF-y mainstream fiction

So I recently read James Michener's SPACE, which is a mainstream
novel about SF-like topics.  Actually it's a novel about the
development of NASA and the space effort, and he uses a lot of
actual events as well as some fictional ones.  I think I discovered
something about non-SF: he really spent a lot of time making sure
his characters were really well-developed and well-rounded.  Hmmm...
I guess I must like cardboard characters, at least in some respects,
because I got real tired of reading about things which really had
nothing to do with the actual thread of events (I can't really call
it a "plot" since it traced the lives of fictional people centrally
involved in the space effort which matched actual events very
closely, and I don't think of life as having a plot, it just goes
from one state to another).  If you can tolerate the
well-roundedness of all the characters it's a good read.  I found it
slow at the beginning (probably because he started in in World War
II) but it picked up and was hard to put down in the last half of
the book.  A good book to take along on an airplane trip.

One thing was fairly neat: I was in Washington DC recently and I
visited the National Air and Space Museum (highly recommended!), and
a lot of the airplanes and rockets that were talked about in SPACE
were on display at the museum so I got to see what he was talking
about.  (Maybe that's one advantage of mainstream fiction: it
describes "real-world" things so you can actually visit or see the
things talked about, where it's going to be hard to actually see the
nifty civilization on alpha centauri...)

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Jun 86 12:02:10-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #139

> The most widely currently available novels by Vance are of the
> _Lyonesse_Series .  These novels are NOT recommended.

I respectfully disagree with this.  For some people (myself and Lin
Carter, for two), the best part of Jack Vance's writing is the
writing itself.  He is one of the best (i.e., most to my taste -- I
don't want to restart the Great Literature wars) prose stylists I
have read.  His command of other more or less technical things, like
description, characterization of certain kinds of people, choosing
of names, and creation of certain kinds of society are superb.  This
is what _I_ read Jack Vance's work for, and why I buy new Jack Vance
books on sight.

He is not as good in other technical matters.  His plots are rarely
exceptional.  The protagonists of his novels are monotonously
similar, and not especially interesting as people. (Magnus(?)
Ridolph is one exception; Cugel is another.)  He tends to overwork
good ideas, especially in novels.  (* None of this seems to matter
in his short stories. Both Ridolph and Cugel were related
collections of short stories. *)But you don't read Vance's work
primarily for plot and characterization, any more than you drink a
fine wine primarily to get drunk.

Reading Vance's work with this in mind, I found _Lyonesse_ one of
his better novels.  Some of the reason was that there were four or
five threads of story going on most of the time, and the book felt
like several good and extremely creative short stories read in
parallel, as good as the _Dying_Earth_ which is several good short
stories read in serial.  Toward the end, when the stories started
converging, I found the book much less fun.  _The_Green_Pearl_ had
fewer plots, and had Vance's usual problems with writing novels (and
it didn't answer or even address many of the questions Vance asked
at the end of _Lyonesse_), and I for one didn't like it as much.  I
would rate _Lyonesse_ 8 (on 0..10), and _The_Green_Pearl_ 5.

> Works with a 10 either received a Hugo/Nebula or should have.  ALL
> of Jack Vance's works including _Lyonesse_ are better than 99.9%
> of what one would typically find for sale as Science Fiction.

I agree.

Who else is similar? Michael Shea tries to imitate Vance's style,
but I don't think he does a very good job.  Tanith Lee has a
somewhat similar writing style, and is (usually) every bit as good
-- and she can handle characterization and long plots as well.  Lord
Dunsany and James Branch Cabell share Vance's skills and flaws, but
they're not writing much these days (nothing that has come out in
this country, anyways 8-).  Who else?

Bard

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 86 18:25 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Anthologists review

I have been reading some anthologies with some common editors and I
feel they should get some credit where cedit is due.  The two
editors in mind are:

  Martin H. Greenberg
  Charles G. Waugh

Too often are these gentlemen teamed up with a "bigger" name to
create a wonderful anthology.  It has gotten to the point where I
don't care "who" edited the book.  If they had Martin and Charles
helping, I will be more than happy to buy it and read it.  They have
never dissapointed me.

Here is a list of anthologies that I have read and recommend to
everyone on the net:

Dragon Tales        with Isaac Asimov
Catastrophies!      with Isaac Asimov
Witches             with Isaac Asimov
Cosmic Knights      with Isaac Asimov
Spells              with Isaac Asimov
Mythical Beasties   with Isaac Asimov
Comets              with Isaac Asimov
Body Armor 2000     with Joe Haldeman

All of these books are delightful, with the tales filling the
spectrum from 1940 to the present.  There are famous and unknown
authors represented therein and I have seldom read a story I
disliked.

I could go into all the stories in each of the books, but that's not
the point.  The point is that Martin and Charles are doing their
damnedest to produce anthologies of great short stories and they are
succeeding!

In The Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Review, Martin H. Greenberg
was declared to be "The King of the Anthologists"; to which he
replied, "It's good to be the King!"

Does anyone (Oh, Jerrrrry!) have a complete list of what these gents
have produced?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 86 07:50:15 GMT
From: reiher@ucla-cs.ARPA (Peter Reiher)
Subject: A film of "Neuromancer"?

The LA Weekly reported one of the less likely recent Hollywood
projects.  A couple of cabana boys got interested in "Buckeroo
Banzai".  They tried to get David Begelman to sell them the sequel
rights, but Begelman wouldn't sell.  One of them stumbled across
William Gibson's novel, "Neuromancer".  They really liked it, and
managed to get the wife of a rich plastic surgeon (to whom one of
the two had become attached) to fork up $100,000 to buy the rights
to it.  Now they're bopping around Hollywood making utterly
improbable deals in the process of getting the film made.

They want to make it in Showscan, and have talked to Douglas
Trumbull about doing so.  They've made a deal with Timothy Leary to
write software for the film.  (One of the details that makes me
think this one is doomed to failure; Leary has been fooling around
with computers the last few years, but is no better than an
interested amateur.)  Earl MacRauch, the writer on "Buckeroo
Banzai", has been hired to write the screenplay.  They're talking to
several directors, including W.D. Richter ("Buckeroo Banzai"), Peter
Weir, Ridley Scott, and Nicolas Roeg.

The details of the article make the two sound like dilettantes who
are somehow fooling important people into taking them seriously.
Their plans for financing the film are sketchy, at best, neither has
any experience with film production, neither really know much about
films.  Apparently, people are bowled over by their gall.  They are
unlikely to lose money on the deal, as several studios have already
expressed interest in "Neuromancer", so they can probably sell it at
a profit if reality ever reasserts itself.

Of course, they might actually make it.  Stranger things have
happened in Hollywood.  It will be interesting to see what develops.

Peter Reiher
reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
{...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 20:51:07 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

Sounds interesting -- It's one film, I will definitely see if they
make it.  Douglas Trumbull and Ridley Scott would be sure to do a
good job.  However, I have doubts about Timothy Leary's programming
ability.  I hope they do have realistic computer technology (not
like the Vic-20s that seemed to dominate the starship bridges in
Star Trek III).  Nevertheless, the most important thing would be to
be true to the novel.

By the way, what is Showscan???

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun 8 Jun 86 13:54:23-CDT
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Original Source of "Obs"

As far as I know, the earliest source in the lexicon is in the
Novella "And then there were none" by Eric Frank Russell, first
copyright 1951 by Street and Smith Publications, most likely to be
found available in Doubleday's 173 (1973) publication "The Science
Fiction Hall Of Fame" Volume iiA (IIA) edited by Ben Bova, stories
chosen by the members of the SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of
America).  This is the same story that introduced MYOB (Mind Your
Own Business) and F-IW (Freedom-I Won't) Maybe someday we'll have a
society as rational as the one he posits!

Bill DeVaughan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jun 86 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #148
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:

         Books - Card & Herbert & Generation Ship Stories &
                 Footfall & Anthologists,
         Films - Invaders From Mars & Star Trek & Chrome,
         Television - Doctor Who (2 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - Convention Listings 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 12:13:22 EDT
From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Ender's tactics

   The argument over Ender's tactical skills may reflect what I see
as a poor decision on Card's part. The story from which the book was
developed spent some time on a section of Ender's training that was
glossed over in a paragraph or two in the book: what happened when
the instructors deliberately handicapped Ender's 'toon. I am no
tactician (as some of the gamers around here would be happy to tell
you) but I found everything that was described to be plausible.
   Another thing that was used as a shocker at the end of the story
but had to be part of the known background in the book was Ender's
age. It is a (often cynical) comment from older people that the
young have an incredible self-certainty that is only gradually
tempered. I'm not interested in arguments over the exact truth of
this conclusion (I recall some talk of Ender's personal drive---the
desire to succeed is certainly needed in addition to the
intellectual skill); \\to the extent that it is true// it could
provide Ender an additional edge, especially since there was a large
time element in all of his maneuver tests---doing \\something//
almost immediately was likely to be better than taking a lot of time
to find the precisely correct action.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 06:34:03 cdt
From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham)
Subject: Herbert's Jorj X. McKie

Wrong.  Whipping Star was serialized in _Worlds Of If_ Dec 69 -- Mar
70.  The Dosadi Experiment was copyrighted in 1977. TDE may have
been serialized, but if so I do not remember it.

This information is on the copyright pages of both books.  TDE
contains on the first page a reference to Whipping Star.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 01:38:08 GMT
From: oliveb!jerry@caip.rutgers.edu (Jerry Aguirre)
Subject: Re: Generation-ship stories?

I have read many "generation ship" novels and the theme of cultural
instability (ie revolution) is a common one.  I think it is,
however, an unjustified one.

There are many existing examples to draw upon for isolated cultures
and the trend is for greater, not lesser, cultural stability.
Consider some of those isolated mountain villages.  For many of
these contact with the outside world is less than it might be on a
starship.  Most of these cultures have existed with little change
for hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of years.  What changes
that have occurred can usually be traced to OUTSIDE influences, not
internal breakdowns.

It is usually increasing communication and travel that have resulted
in the breakdown of social systems.  The size of a culture also
determines its stability.  The larger a group, the greater chance
that one of its members will come up with some disruptive idea.

So I would say that a relatively small group of people, isolated
from outside interference, would have greater cultural stability.  I
would think that technical breakdown would pose a far greater threat
to any long term voyage.  A small group totally dependent on their
own resources for life support is terribly vulnerable to accidents.

On the scale of the entire earth a fire, chemical spill, or even a
reactor meltdown is a drop in the bucket.  Within the limited
resources of a ship any of these could devastate the entire culture
or just kill everyone outright.  Accidents like these happen every
day on ships and large buildings all around the world.  Consider
what one of these accidents would be like if there was no chance of
evacuation, assistance, or even an outside source of fresh air.

Yes, the designers would take measures to reduce the odds of such
accidents.  But given a long enough voyage, even the improbable
accident will happen.  No matter how careful the design there is
always the stuck relay or lazy maintenance.  Bulkhead doors designed
to isolate sections will be propped open, isolated life support
systems will somehow be cross connected, some idiot will pour
flammables down the drain, or some hero will try to save the people
in the isolated section and let the disaster spread to the other
sections.

I think there is far more chance (but less adventure) in finding a
hulk with all aboard dead, than savages living on a generation ship.

I also have a hard time finding justification for the voyagers not
believing the records about non-ship life.  I think it is far more
likely that they would over believe than doubt the stories in their
library.  The further away something is the more ridiculous the
stories people will believe about it.

Jerry Aguirre @ Olivetti ATC
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
  !oliveb!jerry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 12:14:32 EDT
From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: accuracy in FOOTFALL

>but I'm sure they didn't ask [Dalzell] to look at the parts about
>the dog breeder.  There is one totally egregious error.
>
>Nonetheless, if their other acknowledgements are of individuals as
>knowledgeable in their areas as Dalzell, they consulted a stellar
>array of experts.

   I find this ironic, as I nearly pitched away the book in the
first few chapters in response to what I saw as a ridiculous attempt
to improve saleability by making FOOTFALL resemble a contemporary
thriller by throwing in "corroborative detail intended to add
verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing
narrative"---the extensive descriptions of Washington DC and
environs. E.g., the drive in from Dulles airport wasn't as deserted
as they describe even when they last flew in to DC (probably 1974,
for the Worldcon) and now is so heavily built up that it's a toll
road for anyone not going to the airport, and they get the CIA HQ's
alias wrong (I'd have to reread F (which I'm not about to do) to
remember what they said but I remember thinking at the time that
what they said was certainly not what I remembered from riding past
twice a day for several years.) After that I was unwilling to
believe anything they came up with; they would have been better off
fuzzing details rather than getting them specifically wrong.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 13:42:55 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Anthologists review

I, too, am a fan of Martin Harry Greenberg.  He has revitalized the
whole anthology market, making re-print homes for stories that would
just have disappeared without his help (personal bias: my "The
Contest" is in 100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories (Avon),
edited by Isaac Asimov, Terry Carr and Martin H. Greenberg --
although all correspondence I had was with MHG).  Each year I
nominate this man for the Best Professional Editor Hugo.

Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 14:43:29 GMT
From: ukma!slg@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Gilley)
Subject: Invaders From Mars -- Question/Discussion about ending

                      MAJOR SPOILER TO FOLLOW.

I wasn't all that impressed with this movie, and I became less so
when I saw the ending.  But before I get into the real questions,
let me recount the ending as I first interpreted it.

Little boy leaves alien ship being followed closely by alien
possesed mother and father.  He runs, and as he is running away the
alien ship explodes from bomb placed by army.  Controlling objects
in Mom and Dad's heads short circut (or something) and they are no
longer possesed.  Happy ending. Almost. 'Cause now we see little boy
awake in bed being consoled by Mom and Dad... it's all been a bad
dream. He tries to go to sleep, but what happens?  The alien ship
lands.  He runs in to his parents room to tell them.. and screams.
End of movie.

Okay, it all seems as if it is just a very cliche ending. Stupid,
dissapointing and bad.  But then I started wondering why the kid
screamed as he looked into his parent's room.  I came up with the
following possibility:

Though we see the little gizmos short circut, the parents really are
still controlled.  The ship that was sent up and exploded was either
fake, or there were two ships that landed.  When the kid wakes up,
his parents are ready to console him.  (Question: were the parents
fully dressed in this scene?  I think so, but I'm not sure.)  They
tell him it's a bad dream because that's what they want him to
believe.  He sees another ship land..  the same ship or something of
the sort.. runs to tell Mom and Dad.. enters their room and sees
something that indicates they are still alien possesed.  It wasn't a
bad dream, and the world is still in peril.

Did anyone else get this idea.. or some other that accounts for him
screaming at the end?  Or am I making up something that really isn't
there. (A distinct possibility.)

I don't recommend this movie if you haven't seen it.  It starts very
slowly.  The first time I really started to get interested in the
thing was fifty minutes into the film.  (I looked at my watch.)  And
then the end blew it all for me.

Still if you want to see it and try to shed some light on the
ending, go ahead, I won't try to persuade you not to go.

Enjoy,
Sean L. Gilley
Phone: (606) 272-9620 or (606) 257-8781
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!cbosgd!ukma{!ukgs}!slg
slg@UKMA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 14:28:53 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: ST IV rumor

> It seems that they wanted to film on u.s.s. enterprise (cvn-65),
> but that ship was busy somewhere else in the world (i.e. the med).
> So they made the ranger look like the enterprise.(?)

I suppose that Star Trek can be forgiven for insisting on the
Enterprise, but, I swear, that ship is the most overused aircraft
carrier in the fleet: Tom Cruise et al. use it in _Top Gun_ also.
Also, isn't the E'prise supposed to hang out in the Indian Ocean?

But the real reason for this posting is: Leonard Nimoy was on CNN's
Larry King Live the other night.  He confirmed most of the rumors
that have been bouncing around the net re: STIV, and added this:

STIV is supposed to be a comedy!!

The customary anti Harve Bennet/Leonard Nimoy flame is left as an
exercise for the reader....

S. Luke Jones
AT&T Information Systems
Middletown, New Jersey
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 18:20:28 GMT
From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

From the San Francisco Examiner, Monday 9 June 1986, page E-5:

"MARILYN BECK -- HOLLYWOOD

"A Movie for Bette"

Barring a last-minute collapse of negotiations, Bette Davis will
head to Hong Kong in September -- to star in Matty Simmons' "Burning
Chrome" sci-fi feature.

"Chrome" will mark the star's first big screen assignment since
1980.  The plucky 77-year-old actress, who suffered a stroke, a
broken hip, and underwent a mastectomy in 1984, resumed her career
last year with the "Murder With Mirrors" TV movie and is currently
featured in HBO's "As Summer Dies" -- but has been anxious to return
to the big-screen fold.

"Burning Chrome" is being produced by Leonard Mogel and Nick Cowan,
who made Simmons' 1981 "Heavy Metal". Like the animated "Metal", it
will be a non-National Lampoon film -- Matty's second. He also has
four Lampoon productions in the works, including "National Lampoon's
Vacation III". He tells me he's awaiting completion of the second
draft of the "Vacation" script and that he'll be rushing it off to
Chevy Chase. Chase has told me he has absolutely no interest in
another "Vacation", but Simmons still seems confident he'll lasso
Chase for the project.

[more unrelated stuff]"

Unquote.

This didn't mention Gibson by name, but "Burning Chrome" *is* the
name of his new short story collection. Hmmm...

Eric J Sadoyama
2033 Haste St. #107
Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711
sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or
{backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 08:41:19 GMT
From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow)
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

david@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David Coffield) writes:
>cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes:
>>His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had been
>>studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter
>>and two of her teachers.  Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also
>>a Time Lord, or does it require some special training?
>
>I don't think Susan was his *real* grandaughter,
>though, which of course means she wasn't a Time Lord ...

Of course Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter.  She had psychic
powers, even.  Remember "The Sensorites"?  She certainly wasn't
human.  She may not have been very experienced.  After all, she
probably couldn't fly the TARDIS herself, but she was almost
certainly of the same race as the Doctor.  To have 3 different
species on the TARDIS in the beginning would be just too wild.  As
for her "studying", she probably went to school only to avoid
truancy laws.

Respectfully,
Eric Robert Jablow
MSRI
ucbvax!brahms!jablow

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 15:49:00 GMT
From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

> Of course Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter.  She had psychic
> powers, even.  Remember "The Sensorites"?  She certainly wasn't
> human.  She may not have been very experienced.  After all, she
> probably couldn't fly the TARDIS herself, but she was almost
> certainly of the same race as the Doctor.

I am of the same race as you.  Does that mean I am related to you?
You assume too much -- Susan was indeed a Gallifreyan, but there is
no substantial evidence that she was the Doctor's granddaughter.

> ...Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also a Time Lord, or does it
> require some special training?

This is debatable.  Officially, I think you have to graduate from
one of the Gallifreyan Universities before becoming a Time Lord, so
Susan was probably not one.  However, the terms Gallifreyan and Time
Lord were used almost interchangeably even by the late Robert
Holmes, designer of Gallifrey, so there is no real answer.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 86 9:57:32 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: SF Cons List is available to everyone

ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro) writes:
>Could someone please do a similar thing for cons in the uppen NE
>corner [New England, New York, New Jersey, and Penn.] please?
>
>I have tried to reach this mysterious list and can't.

I'll send a copy of the list to Chet; for him or anyone else who
doesn't have direct FTP access to ARPANet/MilNet host SRI-NIC,
requests can be sent to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA (via your favorite
gateway).  Besides being willing to send out a few
individually-requested copies of the list, there are also 2 mailing
lists for update-notices: 1 for people with direct FTP access, that
get just a brief notice that the file has been significantly updated
since the last notice (although the file is updated constantly and
is always available on SRI-NIC in it's most current form); and the
other mailing list for people who DON'T have direct FTp access -
these people get the entire list sent in a message (but only one per
site - users are expected to redistribute it locally as required).

Enjoy,
Rich Zellich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 86 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #149
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brooks & Bushyager & Card (2 msgs) &
                    Ford & Heinlein & Herbert &
                    Howard & Generation Ships,
            Films - Neuromancer,
            Television - Where Are They Now? &
                    Doctor Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: Book Publication Date Wanted??
Date: 9 Jun 86 13:03:50 GMT

bseymour@houligan.UUCP writes:
>Does anyone know when (or even if) the third Terry Brooks book
>_Wishsong_of_Shannara_ (I think it is) will be published in regular
>(read cheap) paperback format.

   The paperback edition has been available in the UK for some time
now - I bought my copy towards the end of last year. I always
thought that the books tended to be published in the US first - you
should be able to get it by now, I would think.

   Best of luck finding it - it's a good read!!

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 13:32:10 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE SPELLSTONE OF SHALTUS by Linda E. Bushyager (mild
Subject: spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "In the days of the Great War between the Eastern Kingdoms and
  S'Shegan, the evil wizard Shaltus had been brutaly punished for an
  unspeakable crime. Now he had returned, seeking vengeance from the
  void of hell. The black soul of Shaltus lived again!

  Battling for survival, cast out by her own people, the sorceress
  Leah had to marshall the forces of might and magic. For she alone
  could banish the barbarous evil that had invaded the castle of the
  S'Carltons and had sworn not to rest until the house of S'Carlton
  had been annihilated."

The teaser is not especially illuminating, and it is not
particularly accurate. Leah is indeed a sorceress, but not by
profession -- she was born with the talent, along with all of her
siblings. Nor is she the only one who can destroy the wraith.

The story is quite a bit more involved than the jacket summary would
have you believe. Leah comes from two cultures and is accepted by
neither. Both sides play roles in the story, and among both sides
there are those who aid Leah, and those who oppose her. The most
concrete aid comes from a wandering sorcerer, Rowen; in fact, it is
Rowen who assumes leadership in the battle agains the wraith.

I recommend this book if you're looking for an exciting, fast read.
It's a good adventure: interesting, multi-faceted characters, a fast
pace, a coherent theme, many small climaxes and one big one at the
end, where it should be. I give the book 3.0 stars out of 4 (i.e.,
it's pretty good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 02:16:52 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Ender's Game with possible spoiler (so read the book
Subject: already!)

In any case, people who read all the way through will discover that
the Buggers were NOT fighting by the time Ender came along -- that
is one of the ironies of the book.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 18:52:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card

Just to add more meat to the stew about Evelyn's review of ENDER'S
GAME....

For the most part, I agree with her.

I found the book disappointing in the context of the rave reviews
and as a result think that it was vastly overrated.  Not BAD, mind
you, just not one of the best things since SF was invented.  A
pleasant way to spend a few hours, better than average space opera.

About Ender.  I, too, found him too unbelievable.  Not so much
intellectually, as emotionally, especially in the 5-7 age range.  I
never believed his outlook.

You can talk all you want about genetic breeding; emotional outlook
is a product of experience and you just can't cram that much
maturing (towards whatever your goal is) experience in that little a
time.  And I don't care if you're doing it 24 hours a day with the
latest techniques.  I believe that you *could* cram all sorts of
knowledge, making for a reasonable fascimile of intelligence, in
that time.  But wisdom is a different kettle of fish.

For a slightly off comparison, look at the human race as a whole.
In seven millenia, we've gone gangbusters on acquiring knowledge.
Unfortunately, we've used a lot of that knowledge to invent things
like tv commercials, electric toothbrushes, conditioned
fashion-following, neutron bombs, and scratch-and-sniff porno mags
-- things that if we were one collective, conscious, rational
entity, we would say, "hey, bag this shit!".

Ooops!  Slipped off into a harrangue, but I think you see my point.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 05:13:12 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: John M. Ford

Jerry Boyajian writes:
>Aside from THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford has written (so far) a total of
>four books, all very definitely --- and packaged as --- science
>fiction, including one Star Trek novel, and a Star Trek
>"interactive fiction" book under a pseudonym.

Being a John Ford fan, I thought I'd elaborate on the 4 books he's
published under his real name.

Princes of Air and Darkness
Web of Angels
The Final Reflection    (a Star Trek book)
The Dragon Waiting

These all come highly recommended.  Even the Star Trek book for
non-Trek fans, as the novel is primarily about Klingons (and the
Federation) in times before the "current" Star Trek books (e.g. when
Spock was just a kid and McCoy was in diapers).

Also, a warning.  John Ford is not the kind of writer who likes to
hit readers over the head with things.  He doesn't go out of his way
to be obscure (e.g. purposely hide what's going on), he just assumes
he's writing for an intelligent reader.  Just about every word is
important so don't be in a hurry when you read his novels and be
willing to go back and re-read sections a bit later if you didn't
quite pick up on what was going on.  It's worth it when you do.

The most extreme case of this happening was in The Dragon Waiting
where I read the thing in a hurry, went "Huh?", re-read it, and then
to paraphrase SZKB, things went "click, click, click, click,
WHAM!!!"

I enjoyed them all, but would rank Princes of Air and Darkness (his
first book, I believe) last, and put other three in a tie.

Share and Enjoy!

Ray Chen
gatech!chen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 14:47:53 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: RAH universes and...

> From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
> I haven't read THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS (I've had it with
> Heinlein's self-indulgence!) so I can't argue with most of Steven
> Jones's carefully assembled arguments in SFL 11.139...
>   Of course, it's Heinlein's universe(s), and if he has the
> explicit tie-in Jones mentions arguing with it is probably as
> futile as tyring to teach a pig to sing. Some authors have the
> sense not to try to tie everything together...

I assure you the tie-in is there.  I agree with your arguments, but
my point is that, as the author, it is Heinlein's perogative to join
anything he wants and, as the author, he can keep manufacturing
connections until arguments like yours are all used up.  I used to
worry about these things too: my favorite was how Lazarus Long cried
like a baby the night his mother died ("Methuselah's Children") but
told her later (eariler) that the families had no record of her
death (_Time Enough for Love_).  Heinlein must have noticed this
error, because he fixed it in _Number of the Beast_.

The best thing about RAH Multiverses (tm) is that he can explain
away any discrepancies in a single mumbled phrase about alternate
universes rather than waste a couple of pages with a more
complicated, more tenuous connection.

S. Luke Jones
AT&T Information Systems
{...!ihnp4}!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 14:33:42 GMT
From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (albrecht_d)
Subject: Re: Re: Science in SF (was Re: Off-mark predictions)

Personally, I think that Herbert only two books that were worth
keeping (and I keep alot of pretty borderline stuff).  Dune and The
Godmakers.  Given how lousy everything else he wrote was I have
always been amazed how good Dune was.  My feelings on Herbert is
that except for Dune and The Godmakers he is incapable of writing
characters that I give a rip about.  Dune had a very delicate
balance between plot, characterization, and mysticism.
Unfortunately in most of his other books he wanged the balance over
to mysticism leaving plot and characterization behind.  Like mystery
writers he seems to want to uncover some unexpected revelation but
in the mystical or spiritual domain instead of in the plot.  These
revelations are generally hackneyed, stupid, and predictable.  The
Jesus Incident had to be one of the worst Herbert's I ever read,
tons of boring prose leading up to an inane psychology 101
conclusion.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 14:40:29 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Robert Howard

 Fifty years ago today, on 11 June 1936, Robert E. Howard went out
to his car and blew his brains out.  You might not have heard of
Howard, but he was a writer, and his most famous literary creation,
the iron-thewed barbarian Conan the Cimmerian, lives on in cheap
paperbacks, trade paperbacks, expensive small press books, posters,
two execrable movies, and a comic book series.
   Howard was neither a good writer nor a skilled one, but what
makes him outstanding was that he was an incredibly good
tale-spinner.  No matter how racist, sexist, crude, bloody or vile
his work seems, it is readable; it has a hypnotic intensity that
drags a reader into the story and keeps him (or her, though there
seem to be fewer female Howard readers than male) there until the
story's end.
   Had Howard lived, it seems quite probable that the face of 20th
century American culture would be different.  This is not an
overstatement.  Howard would have crashed the high paying pulp
magazines, and the slicks, rather than being known only to the
readers of the poor and belatedly paying *Weird Tales*.  Louis
L'Amour could not have competed against Howard's westerns.  The
genre of Sword and Sorcery fiction, which Howard began, would have
been his playground.  L. Sprague De Camp and Lin Carter and Poul
Anderson and Andy Offut and Ramsey Campbell and a host of others
would not have been able to "finish" Howard's rejecta and dejecta,
and we would have been spared their interpretations, which are never
as convincing as Howard's own work.  Many private presses might not
exist if Howard were alive to keep his manuscripts for himself.
Scores of used, rare and antiquarian booksellers would have gaps on
their shelves that are today occupied by "limited editions" of
Howard's works.
   Robert E. Howard was only 30 when he killed himself.  He was
supposedly a gentle man who made foolish noises and who liked cats.
He had spent his entire life in Southwest Texas, and when he learned
that his mother had entered a terminal coma he shot himself.  What
a tragic waste.
  Requiescat in paces.

Richard Bleiler

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 86 10:45 CDT
From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Generation ships

In addition to the list posted earlier, consider:

Cities in Flight - James Blish Rendezvous With Rama - A.C Clarke
RingWorld books - Larry Niven

RwR is stretching the "true" definition of generation ship a bit,
Ringworld streches almost to the breaking point.  A last thought to
consider is the Wizard, Titan, and Demon series by Varley.  Cities
in Flight comes closest to the real thing.

Craig
Wilcox@HI-MULTICS

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 12:48:33 GMT
From: mcnc!jeff@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes:
>The LA Weekly reported one of the less likely recent Hollywood
>projects.  A couple of cabana boys got interested in "Buckeroo
>Banzai".  They tried to get David Begelman to sell them the sequel
>rights, but Begelman wouldn't sell.  One of them stumbled across
>William Gibson's novel, "Neuromancer".  They really liked it, and
>managed to get the wife of a rich plastic surgeon (to whom one of
>the two had become attached) to fork up $100,000 to buy the rights
>to it.

This shows principally that William Gibson is not stupid.  According
to LOCUS, Gibson got the entire $100,000 up front, with no
percentage of the profits.  I think he realizes that these guys are
out to lunch, and having a lot of money in hand now is better than a
promise of a percentage (possibly much) later.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 19:30:57 GMT
From: wales@ucla-cs.ARPA (Rich Wales)
Subject: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent
Subject: work?

Does anyone know whether Gil Gerard (who played Buck Rogers in the
TV series) and/or Erin Gray (who played Wilma Deering) have done
anything else since that show?

Some months ago, I remember having seen an hour-long documentary on
the history of science fiction in movies and TV, hosted by Gil
Gerard.  But I think the date on said documentary was back in 1980
or something like that -- hardly very recent.

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles,
California 90024
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 14:27:28 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola)
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

david@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David Coffield) writes:
>cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes:
>>His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had
>>been studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter
>>and two of her teachers.  Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also
>>a Time Lord, or does it require some special training?
>
>I don't think Susan was his *real* grandaughter,
>though, which of course means she wasn't a Time Lord ...

Two points : a) Yes, Cheryl, it requires some special training
(That's one reason Romana I was such an arrogant #$%^, she was a
wunderkind at the Academy, while the Doctor barely passed after his
second time through...)

b) Even if Susan wasn't his real granddaughter, she might have been
a Time Lord (Lady?)  (Sorry, Cheryl, I'm a medievalist).  She was
obviously travelled with the Doctor, might she not have been a
Gallifreyan he had picked up?

Pat Juola
Hopkins Maths
{seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 21:59:54 GMT
From: cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl)
Subject: Re: The Private Life of Doctor Who

david@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David Coffield) writes:
>cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP (cheryl) writes:
>>His grandaughter appeared in the very first episodes; she had
>>been studying in England, when the Doctor picked up his grandaughter
>>and two of her teachers.  Is the grandaughter of a Time Lord also
>>a Time Lord, or does it require some special training?
>
>I don't think Susan was his *real* grandaughter,
>though, which of course means she wasn't a Time Lord ...

What makes you think that?  Didn't he SAY that she was his
grandaughter?  Did he ever SAY that he was "only kidding"?  Then
what reason do you have to doubt that Susan is not Gallifreyan or a
Time Lord?  What reason do you have to DOUBT Doctor Who?  I suspect
you are uneasy with the idea of an apparently 14 year old girl
knowing more about space-time than you or any of your male buddies
will ever know!

Cheryl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 86 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #150
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Asimov & Card (3 msgs) &
                          Herbert & Footfall,
                  Films - Burning Chrome (4 msgs),
                  Television - Where Are They Now?,
                  Miscellaneous - Fantasy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 14:45:43 GMT
From: augusta!bs@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Book Review, Black widowers

While not strictly a Science Fiction book, it seems reasonable to
review the latest of Isaac Asimov's collections of Black Widower's
stories _Banquets_of_the_Black_Widowers_, here due to the fame of
the author in that field.

For those who have not read any Black Widowers stories, they are
light mysteries, set at the monthly banquet/meeting of the Black
Widowers club.  This club is loosely based on a real organization
(The Trap Door Spiders, if anyone cares) to which Mr Asimov belongs.
Each meeting is hosted by one of the 6 members who brings along an
invited guest. Each guest always seems to have some sort of problem
which serves as the basis of the mystery. The club members (Phd's
all) take turns trying to extract clues and make guesses as to the
solution. In the end the genteel waiter, Henry, always comes up with
the correct solution.

                        mild spoilers follow

In this book, the gimmicks for the mysteries are as clever as
always, but the writing seems overly terse. There is an assumption
that the reader is already familiar with the characters. This is not
an unreasonable thought as it is the 4th book of tales, and complete
repitition of character descriptions in each story would be out of
the question. Still it would have been nice to expand the first
story in the book to flesh out the members a bit for the new
readers, and help the memory of those of us who haven't read the
series in several years.

I am by nature a poor 'solver of mysteries', but I plead a good
excuse in these cases. While the gimmicks are clever, they are often
based on trivia of the highest order. For example in one story the
puzzle hinged on knowledge of the date of the first performance of
the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta Pinafore. Another required knowing
the French word for beef steak. Two required knowing a famous sonnet
and poem respectively. Not everyday stuff (at least for me).

I did enjoy reading the book, but I would recommend it in short
doses. Say one story before bed each night. Also I would suggest
that readers new to the series start with an earlier book to get
more insight into the characters and their personalities.

Burch Seymour
Gould C.S.D.
....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 19:03:32 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Ender's Game short story

Does anyone know what issue of Analog contains this story?  And
whether back issues are still available?

I thoroughly enjoyed the novel, and I would be interested to read
the short story version for comparison.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 18:04:53 GMT
From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Re: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card

Regarding the virtue of strategy and genius in warfare, Chuck
Yeage's book YEAGER, deals with this issue.  As he says, fighter
pilots live to dogfight.  It is their joy and obsession.  Chuck
recounts at least one experience where he was dogfighting against
another plane that had a marked technical superiority, i.e. speed,
maneuverability, and so forth.  Yet, he was able to "wax the tail"
of the other plane time after time.  He was flying against some of
the best pilots, too.  His point, and well made, was that it was the
PILOT who made the difference, not the plane.  Better skills and
ability to creatively strategize on the fly (no pun intended) gave
him the winning edge.

To me, that was the whole thesis behind Ender's life.

I enjoyed Ender's Game largely because it was so humanly written.
It is a story about feelings and emotions, family and friends,
loyalties and personal values.  Very well done.

Don Chitwood
Tek Labs
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 12-Jun-1986 2247
From: redford%52584.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John Redford)
Subject: morality in "Ender's Game"

** spoiler warning **

I too got wrapped up in the book.  Here was a classic means versus
ends story: tormenting a small child for the greater good of the
species. They turned this kid into a monster in order to make a
strategist out of him. What on earth was going to happen to Ender
once they had wrung him dry? And it turns out that .... nothing
happens.  He feels bad about killing an alien.  Everyone slaps him
on the back and then goes home. The alien forgives him.  The
sadistic trainer is forgiven.  Even his psychopathic brother
reforms.

So Card comes down on the ends side of the issue.  It was fine to do
all these horrible things to all these children because everything
did turn out all right in the end.  Considering the strong moral
current running under the story, I was surprised and disappointed.
Evil actions should have evil consequences.  The act of warping
Ender into an Alexander should have had some moral effect on the men
and soceity who did it to him, but didn't seem to.  These people
have unleashed a whole tribe of young military geniuses on the
world, and nothing comes of it.

Now, it could be that this kind of crime would not in fact have any
consequences on its perpetrators.  Then the author is taking the
stand that morality is irrelevant, that there is no justice.  That's
a valid theme for a story, but doesn't seem to be what's used here.
Card just seems to forget about the whole issue after Ender finishes
the game.  Ender feels a need to atone for what he's done, but no
one else atones for what they did to him.  Maybe that's where the
original short story stopped and the padding to fill it out to novel
length was inserted.  It was a disappointing ending to a fine novel
overall.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 12-Jun-1986 1042
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Kevin LaRue -- The Earth makes
From: one resolution every 24 hours.)
Subject: Re:  Herbert's Jorj X. McKie

From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA
> I keep seeing references to The Dosadi Experiment as a sequel to
> Whipping Star.  Not So.  TDE was written first and serialized.  I

My copy of ``Whipping Star'' is copyrighted 1969; my copy of ``The
Dosadi Experiment'' is copyrigted 1977; my copies of the May - June
1977 issues of ``Galaxy'' contains the serialization of ``The Dosadi
Experiment.''

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 17:40:05 GMT
From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill)
Subject: Re: accuracy in FOOTFALL

cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock) writes:
>[summary: in Footfall, Washington DC is described incorrectly]

They also botched the description of Bellingham (WA) (the place that
was destroyed by the orion) and I know that at least Niven had
visted Bellingham before the book was writen since I met him there.
There certainly wasn't any evidence of that visit in the book, tho.

> they would have been better off fuzzing details rather than
> getting them specifically wrong.

Definitely.  As if blowing up the city wasn't bad enough....

mark
bellcore 2H-307 435 morristown nj 07960
purtill @ bellcore.arpa (201) 829-5127

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 19:41:32 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome)

But.....but.....there is no 77-year-old-woman in Burning Chrome!  In
fact there is noone over 30 that I can remember.

Chrome was supposed to have a genetic defect that made her appear to
be *young*, preadolescent, I believe, even though I think she was in
her 20s.  (I don't have the book with me here at work.)

Maybe they will reverse the defect.....  Also, Burning Chrome was
supposed to take place in the U.S., I think.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 23:43:49 GMT
From: reed!soren@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

On the subject of Burning Chrome, I've been looking for it for a
while without success.  Does it exist? In paperback? Any good?

Thank You
Soren Petersen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 08:34:10 GMT
From: rtech!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Bulger)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

In Marilyn Beck's column of June 9, she has an item on Bette Davis
starring as the "villianess" of a new science-fiction film named
"Burning Chrome", directed by Matty Simmons, who has directed
several of the National Lampoon's movies.  The film is being
produced by Leonard Mogel and Nick Cowan, who also produced "Heavy
Metal".  (A cinema classic there - could these be the cabana boys?)

"Burning Chrome" is the title of a short novel by William Gibson.
Could this be a related project?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 18:53:02 GMT
From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes:
>On the subject of Burning Chrome, I've been looking for it for a
>while without success.  Does it exist? In paperback? Any good?

Burning Chrome is only available in hardback, from Arbor House at
the present time. It should be out in paperback sometime next year
(I hope!).

Eric J Sadoyama
2033 Haste St.
#107 Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711
sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or
{backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 23:56:20 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent
Subject: work?

  Erin Gray was one of the stars of the recently cancelled Silver
Spoons. That show came on the air right after Buck was cancelled.
Gil Gerard had done some specials, but with wife Connie Selleca
having a steady job on Hotel, he hasn't had to do much.

Phil

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 11:16:51 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Lower Class Readership (Was Vance)
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
Cc: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU,
Cc:  lah@MIRO.BERKELEY.EDU, Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.COM,
Cc: JEF@LBL-RTSG.Arpa,
Cc:  Marshall.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

>From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>Also the work is mainly a farce, and satirizes the concepts of
>fantasy, which to my mind justifies the use of this literary form.
>I am of the opinion that "pure fantasy" has had a generally
>negative effect on SF.  Pure fantasy has brought in a lower class
>of readership and has unfortunately provided an economic incentive
>for master authors like Vance, Silverberg and others to write
>fantasy rather than SF.  J.R.R. Tolkien is the only pure fantasy
>author who's works seem to have been a real benefit to SF.

... and later in the same message ...

>Perry A. Caro's views on Vance closely parallels my own.

Yipes!  Although our tastes for Jack Vance may be simpatico, our
opinions about fantasy (indeed, fiction in general) could not be
more divergent!  I love fantasy ... does that mean I'm a lower class
of reader???  Hell, some folks have suggested, with good reason,
that SF is a special case of fantasy!  Think of what that means to
your argument.

There is the slightest chance that you made the statements above
more to engender an outcry than to express your actual opinion.
Either possibility has the same result ...

Ok, ok, no semantic quibbles here.  By "pure fantasy" I suppose you
mean anything that isn't SF -- like "high fantasy" (Lord Of The
Rings, Chronicles of Prydain, Earthsea Trilogy, etc.) plus "sword &
sorcery" (Conan, Moorcock's Eternal Champion --
Elric/Hawkmoon/Runestaff, etc.)  plus unclassifiable fiction ("The
Last Unicorn", Cthulhu Mythos, Fafhrd & Gray Mouser, etc.).

On second thought, it doesn't really matter WHAT you mean by "pure
fantasy".  Genre bigotry, of whatever flavor, does nothing to
further the art & science of entertainment and learning.  When we
throw off the shackles of categorization, pigeon-holing, and
prejudice, then maybe we can all share in the wonders and adventures
that fiction can provide for us.  The more we close our minds to the
diversity of fiction, the more we impoverish our experience.

To fight the natural tendency toward genre bigotry, I like to keep
the following in mind:

- All genres have works both meritorious AND vomitus, and
everything in between.  No one genre has a monopoly on quality.

- No genre is intrinsically good or bad -- only individual works can
be judged for quality.

- From the writer's point of view, she may write SF, or fantasy, or
mystery, but ultimately her goal is to write good FICTION.  (And
good may mean "marketable") [non-fiction is another story.]

- To me, every book is good until proven otherwise.  I don't reject
a book because of its cover or what part of the bookstore I find it
in.  I try to IGNORE the labels pasted on a book -- especially back
blurbs which I habitually refuse to read.  The only thing that
counts are the WORDS written by the author.

So, Mr. Allen, I am compelled to say that I disagree with your
belief that "Pure fantasy has brought in a lower class of
readership".  Please don't take this personally, but I find that to
be a laughable idea!  Even more preposterous is the notion that one
genre can have a "generally negative effect" on another, in terms of
quality.  Economically speaking, you might THANK sword & sorcery for
reviving the floundering paperback industry back in the late
seventies (oh, and a nod goes to George Lucas and Star Wars, of
course).

And what is this about "His [Tolkien's] books were a labor of love
and scholarship and not a simple desire to rake in cash from
simpletons?"  So now I'm a simpleton, just because I bought and
enjoyed "The Lover Of Lord Eithras?"  So the author is nothing but a
money hungry hack whose only desire is bilking poor, innocent,
well-meaning but naive readers?  And talk about bilking the public
-- what about all these posthumous Tolkien books?  Tolkien's made
more money after dying than any other author I know, except maybe
Shakespeare :-)

Hah!

It doesn't bother me one bit that authors write books to suit
popular tastes.  If sword & sorcery is the in thing, sword & sorcery
is what publishers will buy.  Authors need bread too!  To think that
an author is a traitor to her art just because she writes something
"commercial" is unfair.  Maybe she needs to sell five "commercial"
books this year to support her family well enough so that she can
write her ultimate masterpiece next year!  Again, judge each book on
its own merits, regardless of what you think the author's motives
were.

Besides, who is to say that "Lyonnesse" or "Lord Valentine's Castle"
[I assume this is the "fantasy" work that you imply Silverberg is
copping out with] were written just to cash in?

I hope this is all taken in the spirit it was written in ... not as
a personal attack, but as a deeply felt objection to several
statements that I feel are fundamentally flawed.

I'm still interested in a Vance sub-group discussion.  Do you want
to organize it?

Oh yes, and I disagree that Vance is satirizing fantasy in
"Rhialto", so much as he is satirizing the more negative aspects of
humanity (greed, pride, ego, etc.).

Perry A. Caro
Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 86 0929-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #151
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 15:26:28 GMT
From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
>3) Sauron moves to seduce the other free races of Middle Earth.  He
>forges the Seven, to be given to the 7 houses of Dwarves, and the
>Nine, to be given to 9 Black Numenorean kings who serve him.  These
>Rings are to be slaves to the One, and turn their wearers into no
>more than shadows of Sauron's own will.

Umm. I don't think ALL of the Nazgul were Black Numenoreans, just
some of them. Sorry for no references, but I seem to remember either
The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales making this point.

>The Seven fail.  Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more
>lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to
>domination.  If anything, they become more secretive, and guard
>their hoards more jealously.  The failure earns the Dwarves
>Sauron's particular hatred.  Enraged, he exerts his power to draw
>the Rings back to him.  Though he is not successful, one or another
>misfortune strikes all the wearers, until the Seven are all lost to
>the Dwarves.  (I believe the last was taken from Thrain in Dol
>Guldur, where Gandalf found him raving, only a century or so before
>Bilbo's first adventure.)

If the Ring of the House of Durin, which was also the first of the
Seven to be forged, was eventually retrieved by being taken from
Thrain, I wouldn't call Sauron's efforts a *total* un-success. :)

Eric J Sadoyama
2033 Haste St. #107
Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711
sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or
{backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 02:05:27 GMT
From: masscomp!carlton@caip.rutgers.edu (Carlton Hommel)
Subject: The Elements in Tolkein's World

While better writers than I have discussed the ultimate fate of the
Silmarils, no one has brought up other 'elemental' influences in the
Tolkein mythos.  A close reading of "The Valaquenta" or Account of
the Vala shows that there is one Valar for each element:
   Air:  Manwe  Lord of the Breath of Arda
   Water:Ulmo   Lord of Waters
   Earth:Aule   Lord of All Substances

Now, it is stated that before his fall, Melkor was the strongest
Valar, even above Manwe.  Also, when he fell, he took with him many
of the Valaraukar, or fire-related Maia.  (We know that Maia do
align themselves with certain elements, witness Osse, Master of
Shallows)

Therefore, we can conclude
   Fire: Melkor Lord of Fire and (later) Darkness

Carl Hommel
{allegra, bellcore, cbosgd, decvax,
gatech, ihnp4, seismo, tektronix}!masscomp!carlton

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 01:39:53 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro)
Subject: Re: Of rings

New topic on the subject of Rings:

Just a reminder - remember the words of the verse:

Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die,
One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne.

One Ring to rule THEM all, on ring to find THEM,
One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM.

Pardon the emphasis in the second stanza, but that is my point.

Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings,
there are 21?!

And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the other 20,
including one weilded by sauron? (another one.)

Silly thought, but...

Comment...?

Phone:  (617) 937-0551
USMail: P.O.Box 8524
        Lowell, Ma. 01853
E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 20:08:49 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:

>1. That one bit of verse in 2 lines says it all about the Ring.
>   The Ring's power was domination of others, in accord with the
>   user's stature.  That was what Sauron wanted it for, that was
>   why he forged it: to capture and dominate all the races of
>   Middle Earth.  But it was a trap: as you used it to dominate, it
>   was dominating and corrupting you, until eventually you would be
>   turned into a little Dark Lord yourself, and thus did Sauron try
>   to insure his succession, even if his enemies should finally
>   destroy him.

   An excellent analysis. This is indeed how the One Ring appears
to work in LOTR!

>2. The Elven Rings were not weapons at all.  They were created
>   to help the Elves and their friends do what they most wanted:
>   build and learn.  Elrond explained, to Gloin I think, that they
>   were at work; but the manner of their function was subtle, and
>   not to be discussed, partly, I believe, because it was essential
>   that they be hidden from Sauron.

   Close, but the Three had one more purpose, *preservation* of
things the bearer cared about. This is in fact useful as a srot of
weapon. Also knowledge itself is a weapon, which is another
principle purpose of the Three.
   The maintenance of Lorien against outside forces, and even the
ravages of time, was based on the power of the Ring of Adamant. Thus
it was a powerful weapon indeed, keeping Orcs out and preventing
decay over a large area. It also my opinion that much of Elrond's
wisdom came through his Ring of Power, and he was a major leader and
bulwark against evil in the north of Middle Earth. It is an open
question just how much of Gandalf's power over flame came from the
knowledge and support given by the Ring of Fire. But if it did
indeed help him in this way, it was part or what he used against the
Balrog.

> 3.  The Ring did gain power as it approached the place of its
>     forging in Orodruin (not, begging your pardon, Oridruin).
>     "Return of the King" says so explicitly.  However, I see no
>     actual evidence that its power increased as the Fellowship
>     moved through Eriador, even though Frodo had been weakened by
>     his knife wound (he never entirely recovered from it).  It did
>     not appear to increase until it was actually back in Mordor,
>     where it became an excruciating burden.

   It is hard to tell, it was not until Lorien that Frodo truly
became aware of the power of the Ring except theoretically. Thus it
would be hard to tell just how much it was increasing in power.

>   However, it seems to me that in Lorien, within less than a
>   kilometre of Galadriel, its power must have been very
>   circumscribed, just as the power of Galadriel's Phial was
>   diminished inside Orodruin.

   This may well be true. In that case Frodo's perception of
Galadriel's Ring and her secret desires was the first sign of the
increase in the power of the One Ring, since he managed to do so in
*spite* of the power of Galadriel and the supression of other
powers!

>One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was
>Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it
>concealed those of the Elves from him.

   And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring!

>Following that: my brother gave me for Christmas "The Lays of
>Beleriand", which tell many of the great stories of Beleriand in
>epic poems.  Those who delight in Tolkien's handling of epic poetry
>will love this.  Like Unfinished Tales, though, it is culled from
>Tolkien Sr's notes, and as Christopher works back through them,
>they get more and more incomplete, with less development of, and
>more conflict between, the ideas.  Samples are included of notes,
>criticisms, and suggestions from, among others, C. S. Lewis; so, to
>a degree, this book is moving back beyond Tolkien's great history
>into the making of that history.

        The material included here is, however, much better than
that included in the other two volumes of "The Lost Tales". Tolkien
had, by the time of the material here, finally developed a very
powerful writing style. I found the poetry very gripping and
readable.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 17:29:46 GMT
From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama)
Subject: Re: The Elements in Tolkien's World

carlton@masscomp.UUCP (Carlton Hommel) writes:
>   A close reading of "The Valaquenta" or Account of the Vala shows
>that there is one Valar for each element:
>   Air:   Manwe Lord of the Breath of Arda
>   Water: Ulmo Lord of Waters
>   Earth: Aule Lord of All Substances
>Now, it is stated that before his fall, Melkor was the strongest
>Valar, even above Manwe.  Also, when he fell, he took with him many
>of the Valaraukar, or fire-related Maia.  (We know that Maia do
>align themselves with certain elements, witness Osse, Master of
>Shallows)
>
>Therefore, we can conclude
>   Fire: Melkor Lord of Fire and (later) Darkness

Yes, certainly there is a great tendency to say Melkor == Lucifer,
but what about the freezing cold that was associated with Melkor in
his stronghold in the North (name, someone?)? Melkor seems to be
master of both fire *and* ice.

Another support for this is in the Silmarillion, where during the
Creation of Ea, Melkor is busy undoing many of the works of the
other Valar. Manwe (?) is speaking to Ulmo, and points out to him
that Melkor's fires have caused Ulmo's water to form clouds and the
rainbow, and that Melkor's *cold* has created the snowflake.

Eric J Sadoyama
2033 Haste St. #107
Berkeley CA 94704 USA (415) 548-1711
sadoyama@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU or
{backbone}!ucbvax!pavepaws!sadoyama

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 86 17:58:00 GMT
From: convex!ayers@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

>I recently re-read the hobbit and the trilogy and something strange
>occurred to me.  When he possessed the ring, one of the "powers"
>Frodo got was the ability to see rings worn by other people.  This
>is demonstrated when Frodo was in LothLorien, and could tell quite
>easily that the Lady Galadrial had one of the 3 elf rings...
>...*** Why didn't Frodo see the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger?
>***

Re-read it again: at the end, when Frodo mets Gandalf to go on the
ship, he states that Gandalf was wearing the third ring "...openly,
for the first time..."

Nuff said.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 86 22:50:14 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Of rings

vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:
>. . . Frodo seemed to be able to use the chief powers of the ring
>all along: the invisiblity, the moving to the wraiths plane, and
>the preservation effects. I know Sauron would have derived other
>powers, but I thought there was a big point made about how
>ultimately only Sauron could use the ring.

These were not effects that a user could deliberately select to his
advantage, but inescapable side effects of using the Ring.
Certainly the preservation (I prefer Bilbo's word, "stretching") and
being visible on the wraiths' plane were things Frodo would have
avoided if possible.  And how about the vicious possessiveness, that
made him want to strike both Bilbo and Sam?

"Give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar"?  I think I know the
point you mean, which is that only one of enormous stature could
realise the full power of the Ring.  Sauron was one such, but not
the only one.  Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel also had adequate
stature, and that is what so frightened Gandalf when Frodo offered
him the Ring.  Using it to achieve his desire, the overthrow of
Sauron, he would himself have become the next Sauron, and Middle
Earth would have been enslaved under him.  Likewise if Galadriel had
taken it: "All shall love me and Despair!"  But this wasn't a matter
of learning how to use the Ring.

As for the idea of a "rapport", I think if anything it was the Ring
developing it, not the wearer: sinking its hooks into him.  After
all, Bilbo was using it to considerable advantage only a minute or
so after first picking it up.

>Brandon Allbery responds:
>The PRIMARY use, that you name above, is (all) related to moving
>the wearer into the wraiths' plane.  This is its INTENDED effect on
>lesser wearers.  Which is how Nazgul came about in the first place.

I still maintain that the primary use of the One was to convey the
power of dominion and enslavement to its wearer.  Invisibility, a
stretched lifespan, and greater contact with the wraiths' world
were, as far as I can see from Gandalf's explanations, side effects
a mortal would encounter.  The only effect Sauron seems actually to
have intended on lesser users is that they be corrupted into lesser
Dark Lords themselves, perhaps a sort of booby trap for his enemies.

The Nazgul were created by the Nine, not the One.  The only
connection is that, like all Rings except the Three, the Nine were
answered to the One.  The Black Numenorean kings who became the
Nazgul never touched the One: it never left Sauron's hand until
Isildur cut it off, at which point the Nazgul had already been long
in existence.

Brandon Allbery continues:
>Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong wnough to use, included
>the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other
>Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron.  Re-read the sequence where Frodo
>discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring.

I will recheck this, but what I remember is that knowing the minds
of others was part of the Ring's power of domination, to which
Frodo's will was naturally not trained.  I also remember Galadriel's
saying that she was aware of all of Sauron's mind that had to do
with Elves, whereas she was able to obscure her own from him.  But I
remember nothing about the Ring's conveying the ability to see into
his mind.  To feel his presence, yes -- more on that below -- but to
see his mind, no.  But I will recheck.

Brandon Allbery continues:
>But ANY use by any other than Suaron would corrupt the user into a
>servant of Sauron.  This is because the power of the ring is in
>fact Sauron's own mind, which is why casting the Ring into Orodruin
>destroyed Sauron.

Substitute the word *power* for *mind*, and I agree.  It seems
clear, though, that no part of Sauron's awareness was in the Ring --
if it had been, he would hardly have needed to have the Nazgul
scouring half Middle Earth for it.

>>Did moving the ring toward Mt. Doom make it more powerful, or just
>>make Sauron aware of it once it was there and in use?
>
>Both.  Being closer to its source of power (Sauron), it became more
>powerful and Sauron became more aware of it (the drain on his own
>mind?).

EXCUSE ME???  Sauron was NOT aware of its approach at all -- if he
had been, Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor would have been
terminally interrupted very quickly.  The Ring certainly seemed to
become more aware, and became an increasing torment to Frodo, mind
as well as body.  Furthermore, it heightened horribly Frodo's
awareness of Sauron, and the fact that Sauron was searching as hard
as he could for the Ring, calling it to him.  He felt utterly naked
and exposed, often raising his hand as if to conceal himself.  But
it was not until Frodo's will finally yielded to the Ring's pressure
at the Cracks themselves that Sauron at last knew where the Ring was
and what had been done, and his own terrible mistakes.  His entire
existence teetered on a knife's edge, whereas, had he been aware of
the Ring's entry into Mordor, he would have seized it when it was
still leagues from Orodruin.

Again, I see no indication that the Ring touched Sauron's mind at
all -- he probably wished it did.  What I do see is that whenever
Frodo put it on (at least, when past Lorien), it seemed to start to
respond to Sauron's call to it -- in fact, on Amon Hen, it very
nearly had the opportunity to give him away altogether.  But here,
as above, it seems that the Ring was aware of Sauron, but not the
reverse.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 86 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #152
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 86 20:26:21 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's Languages

>From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>here are two translations of his poem:
>
>    Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul,
>    ash nazg thratuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!
>
>Or, in Common;
>
>    One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them,
>    one Ring to bring them all an in the darkness bind them
>  (In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.)
>
>   Acutually, anything but a literal, word for word, translation
>needs no knowledge of Quenya, but rather a pattern-finding ability
>of the simplest form, kind of like the way one solves those
>cryptograms in the newspaper.

   You are correct, as have been several other people. Yes, it was
*very* easy and pattern matching seems to have been the main method
of recognition.

>As to the meaning of Sarima, well I have no guess on that (not
>being a linguist of any sort).

   Nobody has quite gotten this one yet. Several have come close
though, in recognising the root <sar> as found in the Sindarin "Sarn
Gebir" and the Quenya "Elessar". The major difficulty has been
realizing that "-ima" is a *suffix*, not an independent root. It is
in fact the standard means of deriving an adjective from other
words.  For example "ancalima" = 'brightest, greatly bright', from
"Caale" = 'brilliance, glow, sheen'. other examples can be found
among the Quenya month names, which are all plural adjectives in
form(or they are all abstract nouns derived from adjectives, which
is the same thing in Quenya). Thus the word "sarima" is the
adjectival form of "sar(e)" = 'stone, pebble, rock'. Translated back
into English this becomes 'stoney' or 'rocky'. This becomes
significant when you realize that the Old English adjective is
"stanlig", or, with modernized spelling, "stanley".

> But, perhaps someone can tell me if my guess about the following
>phrase, pseudo-invented by my non-linguistic self, translates back
>properly into common:
>
>  Rethin, Guladan!

   I cannot tell(right now) about the first word, but the second
seems to come out something like "Magician" or "Wiseman", depending
on which sense of "Guul" you mean.  I may try to get back to you
later with a better guess, since I do not have my Sindarin
vocabulary here.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 86 23:10:18 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gandalf and Narya

Nevertheless --

>When Gandalf confronts the Balrog he names himself as ``wielder of
>the Secret Flame''.  At the time I took it as just a password of
>wizardry of some kind...  when I discovered that Gandalf was
>wearing Narya, the Ring of Fire, a great light dawned.  But why did
>Gandalf virtually give the game away to the Balrog -- a (former)
>lieutenant of Melkor, even?!  You would expect that Melkor's
>followers (the Balrog of Moria and Sauron) would have kept in
>touch...

Sorry, I'm not following you.  What has one of the Three, forged in
Eriador in the Second Age, to do with "the Secret Flame, ... the
Fire of Anor", which, whatever it is, is presumably an artifact of
the Valar?  I don't see what connection it could have had with
Melkor or any of his servants.  I don't see, either, what "game"
Gandalf was giving away.  The light which dawned for you is still
below my horizon.  It seemed to me he was threatening the Balrog
with his credentials as a power to be reckoned with.  Even if the
Balrog had realised that Narya was in front of it, and realised how
very pleased Sauron would be to know that, how much worse could that
have made Gandalf's situation than it already was?  Also, my
impression was that Sauron and that Balrog had just about forgotten
each other -- if Sauron in fact ever knew that a Balrog had escaped
the ruin of Beleriand.

So, pardon me if I'm being dim, which happens a lot, but I don't see
what observation you're making here.

Alastair Milne
P.S.  The Balrog couldn't have kept in touch with anything for a
very long time.  It was asleep, or deeper, under the mountains, and
wasn't awakened until the Dwarves bored too deeply in their lust for
mithril; and that happened when Khazad-dum was at its height --
though I admit the relative date of that escapes me.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 12 Jun 86 01:17:14-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: more Ringlore

  The rings were the creation of a combination of both Sauron's and
Noldorian lore.  At this time, Sauron wasn't totally evil; he had
repented of his deeds as a servant of Morgoth at the end of the
First Age, but declined to return to Valinor to be judged.  He was
obviously terrified by the power of the Valar against Morgoth
(remember, Melkor/Morgoth was the most powerful Vala and it took the
combined power of all the other Valar to defeat him).  He was also
alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans.

  Seeking essentially hegemony in Middle-Earth with the apparent
disinterest of the Valar in Middle-Earth's future, he approached the
Elves under the guise of "the Lord of Gifts" (I forget the Elvish
name).  Gil- Galad didn't trust him and refused to deal with him,
but the Noldor in Eregion were more receptive.  After all, Sauron
was originally a Maia of Aule, and that's the sort of person who
would catch the Noldors' attention even if they should have realized
that the "Lord of Gifts" rather suddenly appeared and Sauron
(Morgoth's #1 servant) suddenly disappeared.

  Together, the Noldor and Sauron forged the lesser rings which do
not play much of a role in history.  Then they embarked upon the
forging of the Great Rings.  First the Nine, then the Seven were
forged.  Sauron assisted in the forging of all these rings, and
distributed all of them with the exception of the chief of the
Seven, which was given to Durin III by Celebrimbor himself.  Sauron
still had a hand in its making.

  In secret Celebrimbor, who had learned all of Sauron's ringlore,
forged the Three.  These were given by him to Galadriel (Nenya),
Gil-Galad (Vilya), and the chief of the Grey Havens (Narya) whose
name escapes me right now.

  At about the same time, Sauron, who had picked up all of
Celebrimbor's ringlore, forges the One.  He very definitely wants to
run everything at this point, and takes the easy path.  This
includes use of the Black Speech, orcs, what have you.  It's sort of
like falling for the Dark Side of the Force.

  Sauron gives his ring most of his native power, but a lot more.
Sauron's ring is totally evil (more evil than he was when he created
it) and the ring corrupts Sauron totally over the years.  This is
made quite clear in the history of the Second Age.  Sauron is far
more corrupt at the end of the Second Age than he was at the forging
of the rings, and more so in the Third Age.  The fact that he was
bad-intentioned and powerful to begin with let him do a lot more
with the ring than any of the other possessors did; the ring gave
him power according to his stature.  But the ring corrupted him as
it corrupted every other possessor.

  The possessors of the Nine fell rather quickly; the Nazgul appear
after only a couple of hundred years.  Most of the men who received
the Nine were arrogant, proud kings, and the chief of these was
apparently a bad guy in life.  Some of them apparently were good men
to begin with and it took them a little bit longer to succumb.

  The dwarves did not fall; they decided when they wished to die and
surrendered their rings to their heirs at that time.  The major
effect of the Seven was to make them even more "dwarvish" in their
behavior than they were.  Through various means, Sauron got back
three or four of the Seven, and the rest were destroyed by dragons.
The ring of the House of Durin was the last to remain free.

  In a letter to me in 1969 or thereabouts, Tolkien states that
Sauron had physical possession of the Nine.  Therefore, apparently
the Nazgul did not wear their rings, which was why the chief of the
Nine was not recovered when the leader of the Nazgul was slain by
Eowyn in the siege of Minas Tirith.  Many people have wondered about
this and whether Aragorn couldn't have used this ring to good
purposes, since either the One would be recovered by Sauron and all
would be lost anyway, or the One would be destroyed, the Nine would
perish, and Aragorn wouldn't have had it long enough to be
permanently damaged no matter how evil it was.  Certainly Aragorn
and Gandalf wouldn't have left the chief of the Nine lying in the
fields of the Pelennor for any random to pick up, but no mention is
made of it.

  I feel we have to take Tolkien at his (rather terse) word to me
that Sauron wore the Nine himself.  I realize that one would think
that the Nazgul couldn't survive without wearing the Nine, but
that's a minor plot hole in an otherwise very good story.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 19:07:16 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)
Subject: Re: Of rings

dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes:
>Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings,
>there are 21?!
>And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the other 20,
>including one weilded by sauron? (another one.)

   Chet, once again you're failing to pay attention, and as a
result, are failing to make sense. Although I realize you have not
yet passed Poetry this semester, it should be clear that 'One ring
to rule them all' is asscociated with the 'One for the Dark Lord on
his dark throne'

   If not, at least consider your implications. The Rings of Power
were of Elven craftsmanship. True, Sauron guided them in their
making, but he had neither the skill nor subtlety to create magic.
In general, villians in Tolkien do not have the capability for
original creative thought, or, if they do, it is infinitely inferior
to good's.

   In _The_Silmarillion_, the only actually creative thing Melkor
does is to introduce a discord in the theme of Illuvitar. No more
than a discord.  He does not create Orcs, but breeds them by
perverting captured Elves. He does not create a Balrog, but twists a
lesser Maia to his cause. Ditto Sauron. In general, Morgoth only
destroys, undoes, or uses; not create.

   Back to my point: Sauron, being less than Morgoth, could not
actually create an original Ring. He could examine the Elves' work,
(in the lesser rings of power) urge them to greater works, (the
Three) enlist their aid for other works (the Seven and the Nine) and
use the principle for his own work (the One) It was only because
Sauron was mightier than the Elves in the first place that the One
could control the other Rings.

   Who, then, could have created Gryphon's hypothetical Overlord
Ring?  Morgoth? No; at that point in Middle Earth's history Morgoth
was well chained by the Valar, and was incapable of meddling with
much of anything.  The Valar? No; Sauron would have been able to
tell if another Power was weilding power over his Ring; remember,
Sauron with his Ring was nigh omniscient and close to unbeatable. He
would not have stood for a meddler.  The same argument applies to a
human, Elven, Dwarven, etc. agency.  Illuvitar? No; Eru never
meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth once it was fully made.

Try again, Chet.

...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit
USnail: Erich Rickheit
        85 Gershom Ave, #2
        Lowell, MA 01854
        (617) 827-5510

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jun 1986 07:17:01-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Tolkien, Rings of Power, etc.

The Nine, the Seven, and the Three were all forged by the Elven
smiths of Eregion.  Sauron, under the assumed name of Annatar (Lord
of Gifts), was directing their research into these arts.  Sauron was
still fair to look at and very persuasive.  He tried to convince the
Noldor remaining in Middle Earth that he was one of the Maiar of
Aule, left behind in Middle Earth to help the Elves heal the hurts
of the war with Morgoth.  Galadriel, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan were
skeptical and refused to treat with him, but he won over the smiths
of Eregion, who let their lust for knowledge win out over their
better judgement.

Sauron was directly involved in the forging of the Nine and the
Seven.  The Three were made by Celebrimbor alone.  It is important
to note, however, that Sauron did NOT forge either the Seven or the
Nine completely on his own.  Also, although Sauron was not involved
at all in the forging of the Three, some of the lore used in making
those rings originated with Sauron, and thus he was able to make
them subject to the One.

The One Ring itself was forged by Sauron in Orodruin.  By itself it
doubtless had great power, but Sauron had to let the better part of
his own power pass into the Ring in order that it might rule the
other rings of power.  Thus, the One Ring contained the majority of
the life force that was once part of Sauron.  Hence, when the One
Ring was destroyed, most of Sauron's power was dissipated, and what
remained was too weak to retain corporeal form.

In re:  Gandalf, "Servant of the Secret Fire"

Gandalf refers to himself as a Servant of the Secret Fire during his
fight with the Balrog.  This is NOT a reference to Narya, the Red
Ring.  In the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales, the term
"Secret Fire" is used for the essence of physical being that gives
reality to thought.  It lives with Illuvatar and is necessary for
things to take physical form.  In the Ainulindale, we have Illuvatar
kindling the secret fire at the heart of the world, and the physical
universe takes existence.  Melkor sought in the Void for the secret
fire so that he could call things into being.

Thus, when Gandalf says that he is a Servant of the Secret Fire, he
is telling the Balrog that he is one of the Ainur who is faithful to
Illuvatar.

Gandalf also says that he is the "Wielder of the Flame of Anor."  It
is less clear what this could be.  Anor is the sun.  The fire of the
sun is from two sources: the Maia Arien (a spirit of flame), and the
last fruit of Laurelin.  It is hard to see how either of these would
relate to something Gandalf is wielding.  Perhaps the Flame of Anor
is a reference to Narya.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 86 13:40:27 PDT
From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #146

Brandon writes:
>When Gandalf confronts the Balrog he names himself as ``wielder of
>the Secret Flame''.  At the time I took it as just a password of
>wizardry of some kind...  when I discovered that Gandalf was
>wearing Narya, the Ring of Fire, a great light dawned.  But why did
>Gandalf virtually give the game away to the Balrog -- a (former)
>lieutenant of Melkor, even?!  You would expect that Melkor's
>followers (the Balrog of Moria and Sauron) would have kept in
>touch...

Interpreting "the Secret Flame" to be a reference to Narya is the
most obvious interpretation, but there is another possibility.  In
the creation sagas of the Elves (collected for humans in the
Silmarillion), Morgoth goes off seeking "the Secret Flame" and can't
find it, because it is with Illuvatar.  If this is what Gandalf is
refering to, then your problem disappears, because he is basically
telling the Balrog that his power comes from Illuvatar.  On the
other hand, even if that is not what Gandalf meant (although
personally I think it is), the Balrog has been sleeping since the
end of the first age until within the last several dwarf
generations.  The Rings were formed before it awoke and drove the
dwarves out of Moria.  I'm not sure Sauron would have approached the
Balrog--after all, he would most likely have considered him a rival
rather than a potential ally [these are the bad guys, remember; they
don't get together for old times sake but to increase their personal
power].  Nor would the Balrog necessarily have paid any attention to
rings and lore and the intellectual sorcery Sauron and Saruman and
Gandalf are dealing with; it is presented in LotR as an elemental
power; it doesn't wield flame, it is flame.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 86 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #153
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:

          Books - Card (2 msgs) & Ford & Gibson (2 msgs) &
                  Tolkien & Anthologies (2 msgs) & 
                  Some Questions,
          Films - Star Trek IV & Burning Chrome,
          Television - Doctor Who & Star Trek (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 16:06:43 GMT
From: moly@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Bruce F. Wong)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game with possible spoiler (so read the book
Subject: already!)

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>In any case, people who read all the way through will discover that
>the Buggers were NOT fighting by the time Ender came along -- that
>is one of the ironies of the book.

(Spoiler)

Actually the Buggers were still fighting when Ender came along.  It
was only after the first engagements that the Hive Queen got into
his mind via ansible and saw that all was lost.

Bruce F. Wong

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 20:11:42 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game" * SPOILERS *

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

I think you missed the point (completely).

First, I disagree that Ender's training was a completely immoral
act.  Sure the aliens turned out to be repentant, but how was Earth
supposed to know that?  The buggers attacked once without any
provocation whatsoever and nearly overran Earth.  Mankind would have
lost were it not for the brilliance of Mazer Rackham.  Every
indication was that the aliens would trt again, and the Earth was
counting on another military genius to protect them from the
superior forces of the enemy.

Certainly, Ender's training was cruel and unfair, but his trainer
was not a sadist.  He did what he felt was right to save the Earth,
but he recognized and felt regret for what it was doing to Ender.

>What on earth was going to happen to Ender once they had wrung him
>dry? And it turns out that .... nothing happens.  He feels bad
>about killing an alien.  Everyone slaps him on the back and then
>goes home.

It is more than that.  Ender is torn with guilt for destroying an
entire species.  Not just "killing an alien", but committing
genocide on a scale even Hitler never imagined (although basically
in self-defense).

>The alien forgives him.

The alien forgives him for killing the aliens without knowing they
were peaceful, and without even knowing that they were not a
simulation, just as Ender forgave the aliens for killing humans
without knowing that humans were sapient beings.

>Even his psychopathic brother reforms.

No, he doesn't.  Peter takes over the world through a Machievellian
network dominance scheme.  He then rules the world as the Hegemon
for many years.  Finally, when he nears death, he wants Ender to
tell his story, as his Speaker for the Dead.  Peter realizes that he
has done good and evil in his life, but he does not "reform", he
just wants his story told honestly.

>So Card comes down on the ends side of the issue.

No, I think he recognizes that the situation is morally ambiguous.
Consider this, would it be moral to murder one innocent civilian to
prevent a global thermonuclear war?

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 16:30:23 GMT
From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: John M. Ford

I notice that no one has yet mentioned that Ford wrote a module for
West End's role-playing game _Paranoia_.  If memory serves me
correctly, it's called "The Black Box Blues", and is appropriately
manic in the style Paranoia players have come to know and fear.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 14:32:59 GMT
From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: Count Zero, a mini-review

I loved Burning Chrome, I liked Neuromancer. Why then do I feel
disappointed by Count Zero?

Well, let's look at the plus features first. William Gibson has his
story-telling act more together this time. Neuromancer has a messy
plot line; it reads like many stories welded together. In Count Zero
the three main characters, Turner the merc, Marly the disgraced art
dealer and Count Zero the beginner cyberpunk, each have their own
stories which converge neatly at the end. There's plenty of
atmosphere of the Blade Runner type, quite a lot of violence, very
little sex and lots of trademarks. I read it straight through.

In fact, just a slicker version of what we've seen already.

I'm afraid that Gibson, from promising beginnings as a sort of
Bester-Delany-Varley (plus his own ideas), is going to start turning
out pot-boilers. Count Zero contains what I regard as the kiss of
death in a novel - obvious script potential. You can see a Hollywood
man going over the book, with its filmic intercuts between
characters and plot lines, and thinking he's got a hot property
here.  It annoys me the same way that a key-change in a song does.

What price volume #20 in the fabulous Sprawl saga - Slaves of
Cyberspace? Or a Titan-Wizard-Demon style trilogy?

I hope this doesn't happen. I hope that Gibson realises that he's
mined this particular seam out and writes something new. But I shall
approach the next novel with some scepticism.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.co.uk>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 19:52:51 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome
Subject: Microreview)

Burning Chrome is available from Arbor House in hardback only.  This
will run you about $15 for a relatively thin book.

Buy it anyway.  It is well worth the money.  This a collection of
all of Gibson's short fiction (i.e. everything except Neuromancer
and Count Zero), and there is not a bad story in the bunch.  In
fact, the majority of the stories are some of the best short SF I
have ever read.

If you are a fan of William Gibson, run, do not walk, to the nearest
bookstores and search for this book.  If you are a fan of hard
science SF, or a fan of literary (new wave) SF, or just a fan of
good SF, this book is highly recommended.

On a scale of -4 to +4, I give this a +4.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 June 1986, 13:55:32 EDT
From: NICHOLAS J SIMICICH <NJS@IBM.COM>
Subject: Tolkien

I'm asking this for someone else.  Can anyone tell me if there is a
Tolkien fan club or Tolkien society?  Please post replies to me and,
if I get any, I will summarize.

Nick Simicich  (NJS@IBM.COM)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 86 05:18:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Anthologists review

Another anthology edited by Martin Greenberg and Charles Waugh (with
Isaac Asimov) is SHERLOCK HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE, published
by Bluejay Books.

The Thomas Kidd cover alone is worth the hardback price, though it's
now out in paperback.

Jim Brunet
ihnp4/ima/ISM780
hplabs/hao/ico/ISM780
sdcsvax/sdcrdcf/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 16:18:10 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: Anthologists review

> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> Does anyone (Oh, Jerrrrry!) have a complete list of what these
> gents [Martin H. Greenberg and Charles Waugh] have produced?

Sorry, but they have worked on more anthologies than I would like to
even think of, let alone list. They are the Roger Elwood of the
80's.  Try looking them up in BOOKS IN PRINT.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 05:24:00 GMT
From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: _Analog_ Questions

I have a couple of _Analog_ questions that I hope someone can help
me with.

1) There have been three stories (that I know of) by Ray Brown
   set in a universe tied together by matter transmitters
   (transmats). These stories revolve around the "Reformed Sufi"
   religion that has developed to help people deal with having their
   bodies ripped apart, the information sent across the galaxy, and
   a new body built at the other end. Problems of faith occur when
   the medical planet "Paracelsus" finds a way to store the
   patterns.  The stories I know about are:
        "A Change of Employment"                August 1982
        "Looking for the Celestial Master"      September 1982
        "Identity Crisis"                       Mid-Sept. 1983

   What I want to know is: have there been any other stories in this
   series published in _Analog_, or any other magazine?  Are there
   any plans to collect these stories into a convinent book?

2) The story "Rails Across the Galaxy" by Andrew Offutt & Richard
   Lyon was serialized in _Analog_ from Aug. to Mid-Sept. 1982.  I
   always thought that serialized stories were previews of "soon to
   be released" books, but as far as I know, "Rails..."  was never
   issued in book form. Does anyone know if it ever will be? I put
   off reading it for a long time because I expected a book version
   to come out. If no such publication is intended, I'll dig out my
   magazines.

Thanks,
Russel Dalenberg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 86 15:35:41 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #139

>Heard an odd rumor - that a large ship whose home is Alameda CA (SF
>Bay) has been hired for use in the making of ST IV.

   The aircraft carrier U.S.S. Enterprise (CVN-65) is in STIV.
However, no filming was done aboard her, as she was in the
Mediterranean and was not available.  The aircraft carrier scenes
that you will see in the film were done on U.S.S. Ranger (CV-61),
based in San Diego.  Leonard Nimoy, Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols,
and crew were here a couple of months ago for filming.  The critical
scene on the carrier (you'll know it when you see it--no spoilers)
was filmed on Ranger, not Enterprise.

Bruce N. Wheelock
crash!vista!pnet!pnet01!bnw@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 17:53:15 GMT
From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"?

yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>By the way, what is Showscan???

"Showscan" is film process that basically consists of shooting 70 mm
(really 65) film at 60 frames per second, as opposed to the usual 24
FPS.

There are some new problems associated with this, like camera noise.
However, it improves many things.  "Flicker", for example.  I
haven't seen it, but those who have describe a much more "flowing
feeling" to the image.  Of course, the apparent resolution jumps way
up because the visible film grain is virtually eliminated.  It is
said that the overall effect gives one the feeling of looking
through a window rather than watching a projection on a screen.

A special "Showscan" theatre has been designed that mainly consists
of a curved screen and much fewer seats for a given size auditorium.
In commercial theaters, there are many bad seats.  Ideally, the
first row should be as far away from the screen as the screen is
high, and the last row should be no more than three times the screen
height away from the screen (or something like that).  Also, the
seats typically extend too far out to the sides.

The only film I know of that has been produced so far is called
"Tricks in the Parlor", or something like that.  It's about a half
hour long (necessarily short due to the high speed), and was
primarily produced to sell the idea of a chain of "Showscan"
theaters.  Apparently it contains some pretty spectacular effects.

If anyone in the L.A. area knows how one goes about seeing this,
please let me know.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 12 June 1986 15:05:22 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Doctor Who

>Susan, the Doctor's grandaughter, would make a far better Time Lord
>than this TURKEY of a 6th Doctor.  What kind of self-respecting
>Gallifreyan would care to associate himself with that dim-witted
>co-ed?  O.K. so Dr. #6 really does need someone that stupid around
>to make him look good.  Doesn't help much, does it?

    C'mon, give the Sixth Doctor a break. He's only had one season,
after all. Anyway, I think that this new Doctor is an improvement
over the last one. The Fifth Doctor was (no offense to Mr. Davison)
rather wimpy compared to his previous two selves. Remember the way
he used to call himself "fool" and "imbecile" all the time? Well, I
almost started to believe it when he blew his chance to eliminate
Davros once and for all. He should have dealt with Davros the way
the Sixth Doctor dealt with the Borad--quickly and cleanly.
    And for those who think that a woman should play the Doctor, why
not consider having a show about Romana and K-9 (who knows what
interesting stuff happened to them in E-space)?

Carlo Samson
U09862 @ uicvm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 86  18:34:23 EDT
From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Carlo Sampson's queries.

To answer your questions:

   The last original Star Trek episode that was filmed and aired
before the original T.V. series (the later animated series was
another matter) was cancelled was called "Turnabout Intruder."  The
plot concerned the insane jealousy of Kirk's old rival and flame(?),
Dr. Janice Lester.  Dr. Lester was a romantic thorn from Kirk's past
who lusted after the power associated with a starship command.
However, one of the last remaining prejudices of the 23rd century
meant that woman were not allowed to command Federation Starships.
Determined to have Kirk's command, she attempted a mind-entity
transfer using abandoned apparatuses (sp?) she found on Camus II.
After murdering all but her co-conspirator/lover (Dr. Arthur
Coleman) by sending her staff to where the celebium radiation
shielding was weak (on Camus II), she sent out a distress signal to
the Enterprise, to entrap Kirk.  While Kirk and Dr. Lester were
alone, she formed the mind-entity transfer: the mind of Janice
Lester was now in the body of James Kirk, and vice versa.
Kirk/Lester then kept Lester/Kirk unconscious as the landing party
of Spock & McCoy returned.
   The rest of the episode goes on to show the inevitable
ndeterioration of the mind-entity transfer, and the eventual demise
of Dr. Lester.  For a further detailed synopsis, I would suggest
either looking at Bjo Trimbles "Star Trek Concordance", although
since it is many years out of print, you might have trouble with
that, OR, if that episode isn't on TV this week, why not check one
of the James Blish adaptation in paperback.
   Finally, with regards to the movie, Star Trek IV is scheduled for
a Christmas release.  According to Nimoy, "this one should answer
all questions posed in the previous movies."  As quoted in STARLOG
#106 (? I think that's the number)

BITNET: SHADOW@UMass.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 1986 13:53:22 PDT
From: Nancy I. Garman <NGARMAN@USC-ISIB.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek quote request

I'm looking for a specific Star Trek quote and hoping one of the
readers of SF-LOVERS can help me.  The quote is approximately "I'll
keep that in mind, should I find myself in a similar circumstance".

My fuzzy recollection of this particular episode: Captain Kirk is in
trouble and uses a phrase (perhaps refering to Spock as a meddling
half breed) to alert Spock to the danger.  At the end of the
episode, Spock tells Kirk the phrase worked, but doesn't approve of
his choice of words.  Kirk's response is the specific quote I'm
looking for.

Thanks in advance,
Nancy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 86 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #154
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:

           Books - Card & Ellison & MacFarlane & Rucker &
                   New Books from Avon & Generation Ships,
           Television - Gil Gerard,
           Miscellaneous - Tactics and Strategy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 16:27:00 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: Ender's Game short story

From:   maps.cs.cmu.edu!yamauchi        (Brian Yamauchi)
> Does anyone know what issue of Analog contains this story?  And
> whether back issues are still available?

I don't know if back issues are available from the publisher.  At
any rate, the issue in question is August 1977.

It also appeared in Card's collection UNACCOMPANIED SONATA AND OTHER
STORIES, which, though out of print, is most probably easier to find
in a used-bookstore or in your local library.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 14:55:26 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: 'Repent, Harlequin...'

Old Business, Part 2:

From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> (Michael Maisack)
> Here's one for you,Jayembee where was 'Repent,Harlequin,said the
> TickTockman published?

Lessee...

Magazine:

   GALAXY (December 1965)

Collections:

   PAINGOD AND OTHER DELUSIONS          [1965, 1975]
   ALONE AGAINST TOMORROW               [1971]
   THE FANTASIES OF HARLAN ELLISON      [1979]

Anthologies:

   NEBULA AWARD STORIES                 [1966]
        (ed. Damon Knight)
   WORLD'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION: 1966   [1966]
        (ed. Donald A. Wollheim & Terry Carr)
   THE TENTH GALAXY READER              [1967]
     [aka DOOR TO ANYWHERE]
        (ed. Frederik Pohl)
   THE HUGO WINNERS, VOLUME 2           [1971]
        (ed. Isaac Asimov)
   SCIENCE FICTION: THE FUTURE          [1971]
        (ed. Dick Allen)
   ABOVE THE HUMAN LANDSCAPE            [1972]
        (ed. Willis E. McNelly & Leon E. Stover)
   SPECULATIONS                         [1973]
        (ed. Thomas E. Sanders)
   TRANSFORMATIONS                      [1973]
        (ed. Daniel Roselle)
   ANOTHER TOMORROW                     [1974]
        (ed. Bernard C. Hollister)
   AS TOMORROW BECOMES TODAY            [1974]
        (ed. Charles W. Sullivan)
   FANTASY: THE LITERATURE OF THE MARVELOUS     [1974]
        (ed. Leo P. Kelley)
   POLITICAL SCIENCE FICTION            [1974]
        (ed. Martin H. Greenberg & Patricia S. Warrick)
   TOMORROW, AND TOMORROW, AND TOMORROW...      [1974]
        (ed. Bonnie L. Heintz, Frank Herbert,
         Donald A. Joos, and Jane Agorn McGee)
   VALENCE AND VISION:A READER IN PSYCHOLOGY    [1974]
        (ed. Rich Jones & Richard L. Roe)
   IN DREAMS AWAKE                      [1975]
        (ed. Leslie A. Fiedler)
   THE SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM              [1981]
        (ed. Jerry Pournelle & John F. Carr)
   THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOL. III   [1982]
        (ed. Arthur C. Clarke & George W. Proctor)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 16:22:39 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: W. Macfarlane

From:   <mooremj@eglin-vax>     (Marty Moore)
> In the early 70's I read a series of stories in various SF
> magazines by W. Macfarlane.  The stories featured Col. Arleigh
> Ravenshaw, a special investigator of some type, and his secretary,
> Nell Rowley.  The stories generally featured parallel-world
> travel.  I have a few questions for the experts out there:
>
> 1. Does anyone have a complete list of the stories?  Were they
>    ever collected?  Did Macfarlane write anything besides this
>    series?

(a.) "Ravenshaw of WBY, Inc."           Analog  Mar 1970
     "Meet a Crazy Lady Week"           Analog  Aug 1970
     "One-Generation New World"         If  Mar-Apr 1971
     "Heart's Desire and Other Simple Wants     Analog  Apr 1971
     "Country of the Mind"                      Analog  May 1975

(b.) No, they were never collected. In fact, MacFarlane never had a
     book published.

(c.) He wrote over 30 short stories (including the Ravenshaw ones)
     that appeared in various magazines and anthologies. He had two
     stories published in ASTOUNDING in 1949 and one in GALAXY in
     1952, and then wasn't seen until 1967. I haven't seen anything
     from him since 1977.

> 2. Was the complete text of the poem starting "The worlds exist in
>    the mind alone..." ever printed?

You got me.

> 3. Could someone provide more information about the author? I
>    don't think I've ever heard anything else about him/her.

Since he never had a book published, none of the big reference works
(Tuck, Reginald, Nicholls, etc.) have an entry for him. Ashley's
index to ASTOUNDING/ANALOG gives only his birth year (1918) and his
occupation ("US Farmer & Construction Estimator"). Oh, by the way,
his first name is Wallace.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 20:04:32 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME by Rudy Rucker

              MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME by Rudy Rucker
                             Baen, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     In some ways this book is not unlike Philip K. Dick's EYE IN
THE SKY.  That is, it is the story of what happens when someone can
control reality.  (I suppose it's also reminiscent of Ursula K.
LeGuin's LATHE OF HEAVEN in that regard.)  Rucker, a mathematician
by profession, uses quantum physics to explain how Harry Gerber can
become the "master of space and time," molding reality to suit his
fancy.  (Let's face it, if you lived in New Brunswick, New Jersey,
like Harry Gerber does, you'd want to change reality too!)  For very
complicated reasons, Gerber can only effect three changes (the three
wishes of old).

     The book is interesting enough while you're reading it, but I
found it quite forgettable as soon as I finished it.  I've read a
lot of great reviews of Rucker's work, so maybe this is one of his
weaker works.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Jun 86 20:20:26 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: coming soon from Avon books

I'm now getting regular information on upcoming publishing schedules
from a number of Publishers. I thought this stuff would be of
interest to sf-l.  Here is the schedule of books to be published by
Avon between now and year end:

June:
SHINING STEEL by Lawrence Watt-Evans (sf)
THE HAND OF OBERON by Roger Zelazny (sf, reissue)

July
THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOL. IV by Terry Carr (sf anthology)
THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOL. I by Robert Silverberg
                (sf anthology reissue)
THE COURTS OF CHAOS by Roger Zelazny (sf reissue)
THE ORDER OF THE DAY by Marcio Souza (sf)

August
THE CORNELIUS CHRONICLES VOL. II by Michael Moorcock (sf)
CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS by Roger Zelazny (sf reissue)

September
THE BLACK GRAIL by Damien Broderick (sf)
MARTIAN SPRING by Michael Lindsay Williams (sf; 1st novel)
BATTLE CIRCLE by Piers Anthony (sf reissue)

October
WINDMASTER'S BANE by Tom Deitz (fantasy, 1st novel)
TO THE RESURRECTION STATION by Stephen Leigh (sf)
MUTE by Piers Anthony (sf reissue)

November
THE RAINBOW CADENZA by J. Neil Schulman (sf)
THE BONES OF GOD by Stephen Leigh (sf)
MACROSCOPE by Piers Anthony (sf reissue)

December
STATESMAN (BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT VOL V) by Piers Anthony (sf)
WINTER'S DAUGHTER by Charles Whitmore (sf; 1st novel)
BILL, THE GALACTIC HERO  by Harry Harrison (sf reissue)

Enjoy,
chuq

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Jun 86 01:38:43 PDT
From: woody@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (William E. Woody)
Subject: re: generation ship idea

I know, this is at 2:00 in the morning and my brain circuitry isn't
working properly, but I read something which caught my eye:

> I think there is far more chance (but less adventure) in finding a
> hulk with all aboard dead, than savages living on a generation
> ship.

I envision an advanced race of humans in a far off star, and finding
this _HUGH_ (in their standards) ship with a whole bunch of dead
humans, dead by violent (sp?) means.  The humans at this far off
star are convinced that they are the only race of humans, and when
finding this ship of death, they go nuts.  Where'd it come from?
What's its purpose?  Why did all those people die?

My brain is offline right now, so I can't come up with a plot for
this potential short story, but I give it to the net for someone
else to toy with.  And I do think there could be a lot of adventure
awaiting this long dead Generation Ship.  Responses?

William Woody (woody@juliet.caltech.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 18:58:35 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent
Subject: work?

I believe that Gil Gerard (or was it Robert Urich?  I forget) was on
the recent disney pilot "the last electric knight" as the
sloppy-but-lovable cop who adopts the adorable, supercompetent
samurai warrior child.

The show has become part of the new fall lineup.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Jun 86  15:10:44 EDT
From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (MATTHEW G. SAROFF)
Subject: A bit about tactics & strategy.

  It seems that the discussion of a number of books (Ender's Game,
The Dorsai Series, Hammer's Slammers, etc.  ) have resulted in some
major disagreements about the basic nature of war and the basic
nature of battle.
  I have read some of the Dorsai books, but I have not read either
Ender's Game or Hammer's Slammers.  However, from what I have read
in the Dorsai books, the few pages of Hammer's slammers (the first
20.  I put it back down), and what people have told me about Ender's
Game, I can draw a rather straightforward conclusion: The authors of
these books don't really know anything about the nature of war.
  I am writing a little lesson for those people who wish to continue
to discuss these books.  It's a bit long, and it has a bit of
history in it.
  For those of you who want to understand what the basic
characteristics of battle and war, I recommend the book WAR by
Gwynne Dwyer.  It is essentially the book version of the PBS series
of the same name.
  Let me begin to describe the "haze of battle" by using 2 examples
from WAR.  Both these examples are from the 1973 Arab-Israeli war.

  Example 1: A commander of an Israeli tank brigade was in a secure
position on one side of a valley.  His unit had already engaged and
destroyed a number of Syrian tanks that had tried to assault his
position.  After a long period of inactivity, he began to wonder
whether he should advance across the valley.  If he successfully
advanced, he would gain some additional tactical advantages, but his
tanks would be exposed when they crossed the valley.
  Eventually he decided to send his tanks across the valley.  He
decided to string them out so that if the enemy was waiting, only a
few would be exposed at one time.  When most of the tanks were
exposed, concealed ATGW teams opened fire and took out about 75% of
his tanks.  Our brigade commander took a chance, and lost.
  Example 2: In the early days of the war, a Syrian commander had
broken through Israeli lines.  He came to a valley that he had to
cross if he wanted to continue advancing.  This commander saw that
this was an obvious place for an ambush.  He was sure that the
Israeli's were on the other side of the valley waiting to ambush and
counter attack, so he decided to wait for reinforcements.
  He was wrong.  The Israelis were not on the other side of the
valley.  By the time the reinforcements came, the Israelis were
there.  He was eventually pushed back.
  We have just seen how almost identical situations and totally
different answers can both be wrong.  That is the nature of battle.
People engaged in battle are neither omniscient of omnipotent.  The
situation is fluid and chaotic, and a one of the biggest factors is
chance.
  The Napoleonic and American Civil wars are perhaps the two periods
with the greatest changes in the face of war.  They made war what it
is today.
  The Napoleonic Wars showed that no general, no matter how
brilliant, could defeat a reasonably competent chief of staff.  War
had gotten too big for one man.  More than anything else, it was the
general staff that defeated at Waterloo.  Every general since this
time has used a general staff.  We don't see real general staffs in
most sci-fi battle books.  It's not as good reading.
  The Civil War brought about a number of advances in war.  It was
the first war where a majority of the casualties were caused by
bullets.  The creation of the oval bullet allowed for rapid firing
(4-6 rounds/minute) rifles (Before that time, bullets had to be
HAMMERED DOWN the muzzle of the rifle).  It was the first war where
long range weapons (Rifles, artillery, etc.)  were the primary
weapons.  There was a movement away from hand-to-hand combat.

  The Civil War was the first war where mechanical mobility, the
rail roads, was used.  When General Sherman marched through Georgia,
he was able to move quickly because he used the rail line running
across Georgia as a supply line.  He did not have to worry about
out-distancing his supplies.  However, he also had to stay close to
the rail line.  He had very limited tactical options: He could
attack up to about 20 miles north of the line, or 20 miles south.
What made him successful was the fact that he managed to get his
opponents guessing wrong.  Capitalizing on opponent's mistake is
what winning a battle is about, and Sherman did that very well.
  It was the greatest general of the war, Ulysses S.  Grant, who
show the new face of war.  Grant was a talented tactician, as can be
seen from the Vicksburg campaign, but Robert E.  Lee was a truly
brilliant tactician.  Grant beat Lee because he did something that
had never been done before: he kept the two opposing forces in
contact for a period of months.  He added an innovation that NO ONE
had ever used before.  He had the battle last for MONTHS instead of
hours.  Lee was almost certainly a better tactician (short term),
but he never showed much attention to strategy (long term).  Grant
was the better general because he saw, and used, the long view.  He
was a talented innovater, Lee was a brilliant conventional general.
That is why Grant won.
  As one looks at more recent wars, one notices two things: 1) The
amount of information available to both sides is still very small.
You have to guess.  2) Strategy becomes more important than tactics.
World War I was fought almost entirely on a strategic level, and the
most effective idea of the second world war was MacArthur's island
hopping.  The Japanese created fortified islands, and MacArthur went
to other islands.  The Japanese saw a wall of steel, and MacArthur
saw a series of stepping stones.
  The authors of Hammer's Slammers, Dorsai, etc.  Do not understand
a few basic facts about war:

  1) Unless it is machine guns against spears, both sides tend to
be technically pretty evenly matched.  If it were otherwise, there
wouldn't be a normal fight.  You would have gorilla war.

  2) Due to the fluid nature of combat, both sides have about the
same amount of accurate data about the battle: almost none.

  3) Overwhelming numerical superiority will win if the person with
the numbers has the stomach to carry the battle to the enemy
CONTINUOUSLY.

  I do not read books like the Dorsai series any more.  I can
suspend my disbelief about dragons, magic, and hyperdrive, but I
just can't believe the idiocy that masquerades as sound military
thinking in those books.

Later,
Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 86 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #155
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Card (2 msgs) & Reynolds &
                         Strieber & Wells & Footfall,
                 Films - Star Trek & Burning Chrome,
                 Miscellaneous - Tactics and Strategy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 02:08:13 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game"

From: redford%52584.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (John Redford)
>** spoiler warning **
>
>I too got wrapped up in the book.  Here was a classic means versus
>ends story: tormenting a small child for the greater good of the
>species. They turned this kid into a monster in order to make a
>strategist out of him. What on earth was going to happen to Ender
>once they had wrung him dry? And it turns out that .... nothing
>happens.  He feels bad about killing an alien.  Everyone slaps him
>on the back and then goes home. The alien forgives him.  The
>sadistic trainer is forgiven.  Even his psychopathic brother
>reforms.

I think you are incredibly misreading Ender's Game (read: I don't
really agree.)  Ender ends up an exile from his whole planet with no
friends except his sister and this brother upteen light-years away,
he finds out that he murdered an ENTIRE SENTIENT RACE which had
decided they weren't going to hurt humans any more (it was all a
mistake, guys!) and has to live with that, he ends up writing an
apologia for the ones he had killed, AND another for the brother he
hated and feared -- and then devotes his life to finding a place
where the Hive-mother's children could grow up and come back.

Then (second spoiler warning) during his own lifetime he finds
himself transformed from a world-saving hero into a Hitler, a demon,
almost a Satanic figure in the minds of the race he gave his
childhood and his happiness to save, while trying to re-establish
the race he killed.

>...Ender feels a need to atone for what he's done, but no one else
>atones for what they did to him.  Maybe that's where the original
>short story stopped and the padding to fill it out to novel length
>was inserted.  It was a disappointing ending to a fine novel
>overall.

It's a legitimate ending at least -- sometimes noone DOES atone for
the evil they do.  Consider Andrew Jackson, who killed thousands of
Cherokee (indirectly, by ordering they be "removed" to Oklahoma)
BLATANTLY illegally (the Supreme Court ordered it not be done) and
who is still considered a Hero in much of this part of the world.

But Ender -- who was the direct "cause" of the evil -- has to live
with it, and the people who did it to ender has to live with it.

I think Scott's point was rather that people sometimes DO do
something of which they are ashamed for some higher end: and that
living with that can be very hard.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1986 21:05:54 PDT
From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama)
Subject: Ender's Game, a sidelight
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

MILD SPOILER

Just my two cents for this discussion; nobody has mentioned the
'electronic forum' for public discourse, through which Ender's
siblings became public figures.  Sound familiar, anybody?  Does Card
know the extent of current discussion coursing through the internet,
or was he just guessing?  Granted, we don't have QUITE the
readership of leading statesmen (do we?) as he used in the
novel...anybody out here feel like a pioneer?

Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 20:06:12 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE OTHER TIME by Mack Reynolds and Dean Ing

            THE OTHER TIME by Mack Reynolds and Dean Ing
                             Baen, 1984
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     [Some spoilers]

     Don Fielding, archaeologist, somehow steps backward in time to
the era of the Spanish conquest of Mexico.  Naturally, he meets up
with Cortez and then with Montezuma.  He spends a lot of time
considering the paradoxes involved: can he change history? what
happens to his world if he does?  Unfortunately, not much is
resolved along those lines.

     Reynolds apparently wrote the first draft of this before he
died; Ing finished it.  One of them put in a lot of "local
color"--how the Aztecs lived and worked, their customs and rituals,
and so forth.  The science fiction content, other than the premise
itself, is rather thin.  We never find out how Fielding went back in
time, or what his interference will do to the present (i.e., the
Twentieth Century).  Basically what we have here is an historical
adventure novel.

     I'm sure I read a very similar novel over the last year or so.
That one was an alternate history in which the Spanish arrive a few
years later, when a non-nonsense king has replaced Montezuma.  The
new king promptly wipes out the Spanish and goes on to extend his
empire into Texas and northward.  Unfortunately, I can't remember
the name of the novel.  Like that one, THE OTHER TIME isn't great,
but it's fun to read.  to the Spanish conquest.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 20:05:28 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: WOLF OF SHADOWS by Whitley Streiber

                WOLF OF SHADOWS by Whitley Strieber
                      Sierra Club/Knopf, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is, unlikely as it sounds, a juvenile about nuclear
winter.  And it's told from the point of view of a wolf who is
leading his pack from Minnesota down to Arkansas after a nuclear
war.  A woman (who happened to have done research on wolves the year
before and so gained Wolf of Shadows' trust) flees from the city
with her two daughters just after the bombs are dropped.  One
daughter dies from radiation burns almost immediately, but the woman
and the other daughter follow, and eventually join, the wolf pack.

     Strieber has co-authored (with James Kunetka) another nuclear
exchange novel, WAR DAY.  In that one, only three cities were
bombed, not enough to cause a nuclear winter.  Apparently this novel
grew out of a question he was asked by a reader of WAR DAY: "What
about the animals?"  So the telling of the novel from Wolf of
Shadows' point of view makes some sort of sense.  Unfortunately, the
result seems to be a novel that is unrelentingly depressing.  While
it is true that there is little to be cheerful about in a nuclear
winter, the telling of the story from the wolf's point of view means
that we never find out anything about why the war started, how big
it was, what happened to everyone else.  Yes, it's true that the
average survivor wouldn't know EVERYTHING, but they would have some
idea of what was going on.

     Perhaps I expect too much of this book.  It is, after all,
aimed at a younger audience.  But I also think it provides too
fatalistic a view--the point-of-view character cannot do anything to
influence the course of events that is destroying his world.  None
of his species can.  For the reader to identify with the
point-of-view character is to get the feeling that the reader can't
either--not just can't as a child, but can't ever.  But people
obviously CAN have an effect--people are all that can have an
effect.  WOLF OF SHADOWS doesn't deal with that.

Evelyn C. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
(or ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 86 01:10:00 GMT
From: duncan!lefevre@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Wells..a great or not?

As I talk with teachers and I read more, I keep getting the
impression that teachers, librarians, and to be quite frank with
you, almost everyone I talk to feels that H. G. Wells is not a
"Literary Great". Now, I have read a lot of his work (Specificly
_Time_Machine_, _The_ Invisible_Man_, and _War_of_the_ Worlds_ ) and
I feel from an overall standpoint trying to rule out my love of
science Fiction and I see him as one of the greatest writers of all
time. How about you?

lefevre@duncan.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 19:00:59 GMT
From: steinmetz!davidsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Davidsen)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow)

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
(( discussion of _footfall_ deleted here ))
>What I really hate is alien invasion stories that aren't crafted as
>well as Footfall.  They have aliens with technology far beyond ours
>having to fight a battle for control.  Things like V and every B SF
>movie count in here.

I only partially agree with you. If the object of the invasion is to
hold and use the planet, many weapons become useless. You don't burn
the house down to get the mice out. In all our modern weapons, the
only one which begins to destroy people without wrecking the planet
is the so-called "neutron bomb". Even that is (a) only useful on
concentrated populations, (b) would contaminate the atmosphere if
used in large numbers, and (c) would probably kill most or all of
the animals and plants as well.

I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to
eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate a
biological weapon of a completely unknown type, or (b) introduce
some weapon with no basis in current practice or theory, such as the
"brain wave damper" which was used in a few *really awful* stories.
As a matter of taste, I am not fond of new technology introduced
with a bit of hand waving. If it's magic, call it fantasy, if not,
do some work and base it on an extension of exsisting theory or
practice.

How far have we come in selective killing technology? The cave man
had to locate his enemy by sight, sound, and smell, and kill him by
using a sharp object or throwing a rock. Substitute "bullet" for
"rock" and you can call it VietNam (or Falklands, or Afghanistan,
etc). The only new idea is the "killing machine", be it android or
tank, which identifies humans on sight and kills them. Even this
needs to assume that the device either can't be identified by humans
or is not destructable by them (the second I could believe, given a
reasonable increase in material fabrication).

In short (which this has not become), most of the believable stories
have one individual (or machine) trying to destroy a human. It's
this one on one adversary relationship that makes the stories good.
_Footfall_ assumes that the death of a fraction of the population
was so horible that the rest of humanity would give up. That doesn't
sound like the race I hang out with.

bill davidsen
{ihnp4!seismo!rochester!steinmetz|unirot|chinet|sixhub}
  !crdos1!davidsen
davidsen@ge-crd.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Jun 86 21:50:22 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #148

mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones) writes:
>I suppose that Star Trek can be forgiven for insisting on the
>Enterprise, but, I swear, that ship is the most overused aircraft
>carrier in the fleet: Tom Cruise et al. use it in _Top Gun_ also.
>Also, isn't the E'prise supposed to hang out in the Indian Ocean?

  The Enterprise is, for a number of reasons, the best known and
most visible carrier in the Pacific Fleet.  Mainly, she is the first
nuclear powered carrier.  Many of us who've been assigned to other
carriers do wish that they'd use other carriers, though they did use
U.S.S. Nimitz for (gack!) "The Final Countdown."
  Enterprise, like the other five Pacific Fleet carrier, take their
turn in the Indian Ocean and Western Pacific.

>Leonard Nimoy. . .confirmed most of the rumors. . .and added this:
>STIV is supposed to be a comedy!!

  From what I read and Walter Koenig said, STIV will have more humor
in it than the previous three films, but less than "A Piece of the
Action."  More along the lines of "Shore Leave" as far as I can
gather.  I wouldn't get carried away--Nimoy was probably being
inadvertantly (or deliberately?)  unclear.

Bruce N. Wheelock
crash!vista!pnet!pnet01!bnw@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1986 21:05:54 PDT
Subject: Burning Chrome
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

From: sadoyama@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Eric J Sadoyama)
>This didn't mention Gibson by name, but "Burning Chrome" *is* the
>name of his new short story collection. Hmmm...

Gibson's "Burning Chrome" copyright 1982, was Nebula Award Runner-up
that year, I assume in the short story category.  My first glimpse
of it was in the Nebula Awards Anthology for that year which I
picked up used a few months ago, editor Robert Silverberg.  GOOD
STORY.  But, I wouldn't say this is 'A film of "Neuromancer"',
quite.  Same world-line, electronic cowboys and that dreadful 'ice';
but this is not the same story as the novel "Neuromancer".  Thanks
for the pointer to the short-story collection, I'll snap it up.
It's probably worth the price based on the cover story alone.  What
a movie it could be!

Doug (dolson @ Ada20.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 07:24:56 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: A bit about tactics & strategy.

From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (MATTHEW G. SAROFF)
>      The Civil War was the first war where mechanical mobility,
> the rail roads, was used.  When General Sherman marched through
> Georgia, he was able to move quickly because he used the rail line
> running across Georgia as a supply line.  He did not have to worry
> about out-distancing his supplies.  However, he also had to stat
> close to the rail line.  He had very limited tactical options: He
> could attack up to about 20 miles north of the line, or 20 miles
> south.  What made him succesfull was the fact that he managed to
> get his opponents guessing wrong.  Capitalizing on opponent's
> mistake is what winning a battle is about, and Sherman did that
> very well.

The dramatic thing about Sherman's March to the Sea was that he cut
himself off from the supply line and carried his own supply train.
Your remarks about the use of rail are off the mark.

His tactical options were many, except that eventually he had to get
to the coast to be re-provisioned.

>      It was the greatest general of the war, Ulysses S.  Grant,
> who show the new face of war.  Grant was a talented tactician, as
> can be seen from the Vicksburg campaign, but Robert E.  Lee was a
> truly brilliant tactician.  Grant beat Lee because he did
> something that had never been done before: he kept the two
> opposing forces in contact for a period of months.  He added an
> innovation that NO ONE had ever used before.  He had the battle
> last for MONTHS instead of hours.  Lee was almost certainly a
> better tactician (short term), but he never showed much attention
> to strategy (long term).  Grant was the better general because he
> saw, and used, the long view.  He was a talented innovater, Lee
> was a brilliant conventional general.  That is why Grant won.

I couldn't agree less with the use of "greatest."  If Grant was so
wonderful, how can you explain Cold Harbor, for example?  To claim
that Lee never considered strategy is absurd!  What do you think
Gettysburg was all about?  The number of times Lee was consulted by
Davis on overall Southern strategy is stupendous.

Grant's Virginia campaign was mostly reflective of his acceptance of
heavy losses and attacks on fortified positions, as well as an
unwillingness to give up.  There was little innovation in this
campaign and it calls to mind, more than anything else, the
senseless attacks to be applied against trenches in World War I.

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 86 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #156
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bradley & Brin & Card (3 msgs) & Ford &
                  Laumer (2 msgs) & Footfall (2 msgs) &
                  Anthologies & Generation Ship Story &
                  Story Request,
          Films - Showscan,
          Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Party at Westercon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 15:07:24 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: darkover...

I just finished "Darkover Landfall" by marion Zimmer Bradley and
enjoyed it alot.  However, when I went to the bookstore, I found
tens of Darkover titles and no idea which book comes next.  Can
someone post a chronological listing of all the Darkover books and
maybe some sort of rating system?  Any help would be most
appreciated.

Thanx,
Stephen Pearl

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 11:02:32 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: The latest on "The Uplift War"?

     What is the latest on David Brin's "The Uplift War"?  The last
I'd heard it was suppose to come out this August, is this still
true?  And rumors on the ships, big as moons?

Thanks.
Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 02:22:47 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game with possible spoiler (so read the book
Subject: already!)

moly@vax1.UUCP (Bruce F. Wong) writes:
>Actually the Buggers were still fighting when Ender came along.  It
>was only after the first engagements that the Hive Queen got into
>his mind via ansible and saw that all was lost.

Check pg 352 of the hardback edition.  The hive-queen decides the
humans will destroy them AND THEN gets to Ender's mind via ansible.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 17:54:19 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game"

reply to John redford's posting:
> [...] tormenting a small child for the greater good of the
>species. They turned this kid into a monster in order to make a
>strategist out of him.

Monster? I think Card went to some length to show that Ender came
thru a very difficult upbringing relatively unscathed - not a
monster at all.  Ender, while brilliant etc., has continual doubts,
guilt, remorse, etc.

> What on earth was going to happen to Ender once they had wrung him
>dry? And it turns out that .... nothing happens.

What should happen? Once a war's over, people go back to their
normal existence.

>Even his psychopathic brother reforms.

No he doesn't - Card points out that Peter (Ender's bro) becomes
leader of the world, fulfilling his (Peter's) desires for
domination. This is Ender's story not Peter's.

>So Card comes down on the ends side of the issue.

I don't think Card drew any conclusions. Ender was emotionally
crippled until almost the end (I won't spoil it!) and he left
moralising up to the reader.

> Evil actions should have evil consequences.

But they often don't in real life

>the author is taking the stand that morality is irrelevant, that
>there is no justice. [...] Ender feels a need to atone for what
>he's done, but no one else atones for what they did to him.

There was some stuff about Gaff (Ender's teacher) self doubts, but
Gaff felt that he had to go thru with it.

> It was a disappointing ending to a fine novel overall.

I must confess that I agree with you here (!) I felt the Card was
rather obviously leaving room for a sequel... In fact I think I read
here on the net that there is one - can anyone help me there? I
wonder why Ender's game has suddenly come up on the net? My copy is
copyrighted 1977 - has it just been republished?

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 18:01:34 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game with SPOILER

This contains a SPOILER - you've been warned!

>>the Buggers were NOT fighting by the time Ender came along -- that
>>is one of the ironies of the book.
>
>Actually the Buggers were still fighting when Ender came along.  It
>was only after the first engagements that the Hive Queen got into
>his mind via ansible and saw that all was lost.  Bruce F. Wong

I think you're both both right and wrong! The irony was that when
the buggers' Queen realized that humans were individually
intelligent, they did not launch any more invasions, and would have
left the humans alone. However humans being what they are, we
launched our own invasion, with Ender commanding via ansible.  Then
the queen saw that all was lost, etc.

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 07:06:55 GMT
From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: John M. Ford

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>I notice that no one has yet mentioned that Ford wrote a module for
>West End's role-playing game _Paranoia_.  If memory serves me
>correctly, it's called "The Black Box Blues", and is appropriately
>manic in the style Paranoia players have come to know and fear.

That's YELLOW CLEARANCE BLACK BOX BLUES, and how did you manage to
get information not at your access level, Citizen?

Carl-U-PRP-1

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 14:52:57 GMT
From: enea!pesv@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: COBRA by Timothy Zahn (mild spoiler)

Sounds something like a book by Keith Laumer I read a couple of
years ago, it was called "Devil dogs" or something like that.

If you like this Timothy Zahn book, I can assure you that you will
relish Keith Laumer when he's at it. The hero stumbles upon these
(alien naturally) 'Devil dogs' in the middle of a middle eastern war
around year 2K. He of course has a friend that wants to try out a
new invention as well as fending off the aliens (that (naturally)
uses human organs for dirty functions. (that's why they show up on a
battlefield, people disappear anyway)).  The hero gets turned into a
$1.0E6Man+ (that's the invention), with all that that implies (IR
sight, ability to speed himself up by a factor of 10 at will (short
time), Gargantuan strength, etc.), in short a real Super Heroes
Character.

The aliens, however are almost as tough all by themselves and far
more than one. Soon he finds himself alone in the middle of the
U.S., hiding, exhausted near death and severely sick and inflamed by
wounds. He then begins to travel in high-tech america from east to
west-coast where he is supposed to find shelter (according to his
late friend), everybody corrupted by the aliens, power diminishing
fast.

Anyway, before I tell the whole story I should conclude that the
book is (as allways) a REAL *killer* and SHOULD be READ. It's got
some of the feelings of Alfred Besters 'Tiger man' which also is one
of my absolute favourites.

I truly recommend it.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 86 18:32:54 GMT
From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: COBRA by Timothy Zahn

pesv@enea.UUCP (Peter Svensson) writes:
>Sounds something like a book by Keith Laumer I read a couple of
>years ago, it was called "Devil dogs" or something like that.

`Plague of Demons'; it was reprinted fairly recently.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 86 22:24:54 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: accuracy in FOOTFALL

From: cjh@cca-unix.arpa (Chip Hitchcock)
>descriptions of Washington DC and environs. . . the drive in from
>Dulles wasn't as deserted as they describe even in 1974, . . . and
>now is so heavily built up that it's a toll road for anyone not
>going to the airport, . . . what they said was certainly not what I
>remembered from riding past twice a day for several years.  After
>that I was unwilling to believe anything they came up with; they
>would have been better off fuzzing details rather than getting them
>specifically wrong.

Forgive a parochial midwesterner who has never been closer to the
Capitol than Dalzell's Eastern Shore home.  Sounds to me like that
goof grated you like getting more than one Best of Breed per day in
a single breed at an AKC dog show did me.

However, I reiterate, their expert on herd societies and vertebrate
critter design is stellar, and if their linguistics and other
consultants were equally good, they had good advice.  Although
(knowing a bit about linguistics and speech production via my
anthropological avocation) I question the matter of language,
period.  Perhaps they explicitly postulated the requisite ability to
alter the cross-section of the air passage (vowel production) and
some alternative to the use we make of our tongues for consonant
production.

There is no logical relationship between the quality of
conceptualization of plot or characters and the errors which each of
us found grievous.  I, personally, am willing to forgive authors I
otherwise appreciate for idiosyncrasies of style or errors of fact,
so long as they entertain me.  I will even forgive spelling errors
and 'words' obviously coined in naivete, if they can tempt me
through the remainder of the narrative.  Perhaps you are not
especially a fan of Niven and/or Pournelle?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 08:27 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Footfall descriptions...

The descriptions in the books are not meant to be REAL, they are
meant to be fake places in real towns.  There is undoubtedly a
possiblity of a lawsuit if a description is too accurate.  These are
trying times...

As for the description of Bellingham, I went to Western Washington
University for a lengthy four years to get my degree and I know the
town quite well.  I also met Niven and Pournelle there when they
came to visit.  They described the town in only most superficial
ways.  The most detailed description they had was driving down
"Motel Row" after getting off the freeway, and that could describe
any of 2 million small towns in the USA.

Come on people, lets let fiction be fiction.  Jusyt because it
happens in a real place doesn't mean that it has to be real.  They
never did say what year it happened in, anyway.

Anyways, Bellingham was a small price to pay to defeat the Snouts.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1986 02:43 EDT
Subject: Martin H. Greenburg
From: M.A. Murphy  <MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>

Here are two anthologies that I own which he has had a hand in.
(Can you say alliteration at the end of that sentence...)

Machines That Think
Asimov, Warrick & Greenburg
Holt, Rinehart & Winston  1983

Tantalizing Locked Room Mysteries
Asimov, Waugh, & Greenburg
Walker  1982

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Jun 86 14:39:22-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Generation ship story suggestion

Samuel Delany's The Ballad of Beta-2 is a good one!  It concerns an
anthropology student who is researching a fleet of generation ships
which left before FTL travel was discovered and arrived at their
destination years later, after mankind had already arrived via FTL
flight.

Some of the ships were lost en route, the survivors had degenerated,
and it's all considered a dull research topic by the student.  It
turns out that there is quite an interesting history to the fleet,
though, including figuring out the meaning of the Ballad of the
title.

I recommend this book as a good generation ship story, even to
people scared off from Delany -- it's only 115 pp and quite
readable!  (Not like other infamous Delany works...:-)

Russ Williams

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 14:48:51 GMT
From: hack@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Jay Fenlason)
Subject: I know the title, where is it?

I recall reading a short story a while ago.  The title was
"Cancerama Angels" (I'm fairly sure.) and it was included in some
anthology.  I don't know who wrote it.  Now I can't find it.  Does
anyone out there know which book it was in?  (Simple exhaustive
search of my library failed to find it.)

The story was about a person who came down with incurable cancer and
used rather amusing methods to combat it.

Jay Fenlason
hack@amt.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 22:47:37 GMT
From: onfcanim!dave@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Martindale)
Subject: Showscan

daver@felix.UUCP (Dave Richards) writes:
>The only film I know of that has been produced so far is called
>"Tricks in the Parlor", or something like that.  It's about a half
>hour long (neccessarily short due to the high speed), and was
>primarily produced to sell the idea of a chain of "Showscan"
>theaters.  Apparently it contains some pretty spectacular effects.

A good place to see Showscan is Expo '86 in Vancouver.  There are
two large- screen Showscan films: one is the first film you see in
the Canada pavilion, after the slide show, and one is the main film
in the British Columbia pavilion.  Both are in the 20+ minute length
range.  There is also a Showscan film used in one of the small
"Discovery" exhibits in the B.C. pavilion that is showing an
undersea rescue, but I missed that one.

In fact, if you are interested in film technology, Expo '86 is a
great place to visit.  In addition to the three Showscan films
mentioned, there is a 3D film at the Ontario pavilion, a
Circlevision film at Telecom Canada, Omnimax film in the Expo
Centre, IMAX 3D film and 10-screen films in the Canada pavilion,
plus a few more "ordinary" 35mm films.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 86 19:03 CDT
From: David M. J. Saslav <SAZ@MCC-AI>
Subject: Leslie Parrish

I just finished Richard Bach's stirring novel, "The Bridge Across
Forever".  In the story, which is purported to be for the most part
true, with no names changed, the heroine's name is given as Leslie
Parrish, an actress by trade. At one point in the storyline, a fan
comes up to her and says something to the effect of, "Hey -- I saw
you in Star Trek!"

Since I left my Concordance behind when I left for the summer, I
hoped that if I posed the question of which ST role this woman
played to this list, I might be enlightened.  Any guesses?  (My best
guess is the role of the mother of Kirk's son in WoK, but I'm almost
sure I'm incorrect.)

Dave Saslav

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 86 05:41:40 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)
Subject: Re: Carlo Sampson's queries.

SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>   The last original Star Trek episode that was filmed and aired
>before the original T.V. series (the later animated series was
>another matter) was cancelled was called "Turnabout Intruder."  The
>plot concerned the insane jealousy of Kirk's old rival and
>flame(?), Dr. Janice Lester.  Dr. Lester was a romantic thorn from
>Kirk's past who lusted after the power associated with a starship
>command.  However, one of the last remaining prejudices of the 23rd
>century meant that woman were not allowed to command Federation
>Starships.

   Not quite the case. We honestly don't know if women can become
starship captains (though I recall, in V McIntyre's adaption of ST,
Kirk mentions Sulu's girlfriend who was commanding a Galaxy ship;
the girl in question was a character from _The_Entropy_Effect_. Am I
remembering all this right?) Dr. Lester, though, was specifically
not qualified for command - something to do with mental health? :-)

...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit
USnail: Erich Rickheit
        85 Gershom Ave, #2
        Lowell, MA 01854
        (617) 453-1753

------------------------------

Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 23:26:37-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: "@!%.::" party at Westercon?

Is anyone out there planning on attending Westercon this year?  If
so, there's been some movement afoot to start organizing the "@"
(etc.) party in advance.  If you're planning on being there, please
send me mail; I'll be setting up a mailing list so we can plan the
party (what we want to eat/drink, how much to chip in, whose room
it'll be in, etc.).

Lynn
ARPA: Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM
UUCP: ...{vecpyr,portal,hoptoad,lll-lcc}!atari!figmo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 86 0844-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #157
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:

              Books - Spider Robinson,
              Films - Film Trailers & Sequel to Alien,
              Television - Leslie Parrish & Doctor Who (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Killing Mankind & Westercon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 86  11:57 EDT
From: MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: "Callahan's Secret"  (Slight SPOILER, maybe??)

Hasn't anyone else seen this one on the shelves yet??  In the
foreword, Spider Robinson attempts to make two things very clear.
One is that he has not written a trilogy.  Second is that this will
be the last of the 'Callahan' stories.

To quote:
   "It just so happens, by chemically pure chance, that this series
   of stories has reached its conclusion coincidental with the
   completion of the volume immediately following the one that
   succeeded the first one.  That does NOT make it a trilogy."

I'm not really fond of spoilers, so that's all I'll say about the
book except to solicit other peoples opinions, and ask if anyone
knows the title of the next 'non-trilogy' he will write/has written.
(Once you read the book, you'll know what I am talking about.)

P.S. This is the first time I've responded to SF-LOVERS so I hope
     I've sent it to the right address.  I've been reading the
     digest for about a year now and really enjoy it.  A hearty
     thanks to Saul for all his hard work, and to all the
     contributors for the book reviews and recommendations.

P.S.S. Someone, sorry I can't remember who, started the flood of
       recommended 'funny sf' books.  Can I make a request for
       recommended 'erotic sf' books?  Someone recommended 'Astra
       and Flondrix' by Cullen but I've learned that it's out of
       print and can't be found.  I'll add my recommendation for
       'MIND GAMES' by the same person that wrote 'WAR GAMES'.  I
       can't remember the author and my copy was lent to someone who
       loved it and lent it to someone who loved it and lent it to
       ....oh, you get the picture.  Anyway, anyone got any personal
       favorites in this category??

Thanks in advance
Marty Walsh
VM systems programmer
City University Of New York
(212) 903-3655

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 15:39:23 GMT
From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Trailers, Teasers and promotion: seminar at SEATTLE FILM
Subject: FESTIVAL

I don't know about you, but one of my favorite parts of any movie is
the "coming attractions" section preceding the film.  I always try
to get to the theatre early enough to catch these, as some of them
are more entertaining than the film I've come to see (case in point:
the teaser for _The_Golden_Child_ which preceded _Top_Gun_).  More
often than not, the trailer makes the movie look better than it is.
Well, this year's Seattle International Film Festival held a seminar
bringing in two people who have become legendary in the film
industry for coming up with effective trailers for films: Paula
Silver (of R/Greenberg Associates) and Pablo Ferrer, the "father" of
the innovative trailer.  The evening specialized in the use of
"teaser" trailers (where scenes from the movie are not shown --
instead, original material is used), along with various icons and
poster images, to promote a film, and was one of the most
interesting and educational events of this years festival.  Below is
a condensed version of what was shown, and should be of particular
interest to film buffs (and especially Sci-Fi buffs) -- lots of
wonderful trivia and inside information.

It opened with an hour's worth of clips and a discussion by Paula
Silver of the nature of film promotion and a breakdown of "teasers"
into her own rather distinctive classes.  She emphasized that the
idea of any film promotion is to whittle away at the finished film
until a single idea or concept is found that will sell the film.  It
may not be the concept which is at the heart of the film; in fact,
it may be manufactured and be totally alien to the nature of the
film.  However, it is up to her and her associates to make sure it
is the right concept to sell the picture, and from R/Greenberg's
record (and quality level -- they've done some of the best trailers
I've ever seen), you can see why they're so well known.  After the
concept, a second item is usually concieved: an icon, somehow
related to the concept picked.  This Icon can be an image or a
phrase; prime R/Greenberg examples of icons would be the
Ghostbusters symbol, the Egg in alien, "In space no one can hear you
scream.", "You'll believe a man can fly", etc.

Silver then went on to classifying promotional styles (and
particularly "teasers") in an interesting way: she filed them
according to how the studios wanted the film promoted.  As she puts
it (she is from New York City, with all the good and bad that
implies), in Hollywood, you don't ever want to say "no" to the
person who wants you to promote a film; they think they'll label you
as a "negative" person.  Better to work creatively within their
guidelines or, better yet, wait until a new regime takes control at
the studio -- they change every three months.  I'll list several of
the categories below, with example films and their corresponding
anecdotes.

The first category is the film where the studio comes in and says
"Here's a film about X; however, we don't want you to mention X
anyplace in the promotion."  The first example of this was "Kramer
Vs. Kramer", where the person pushing the movie said "This is not a
film about divorce.  This is a film about a positive change in
several peoples lives."  So R/Greenberg developed the now-classic
developing Poloroid image with the voices of Hoffman, Streep and
Bateman in the background.  Another film that did this was
_All_That_Jazz_, which was supposed to be played up as a musical
instead of a semi-autobiography of Bob Fosse's life; the lighted ALL
THAT JAZZ sign was viewed while voices and songs from the movie were
played in the background.  Universal handed down the law that
_Tootsie_ was absolutely not to show Dustin Hoffman dressed up like
a woman, for the fear that audiences would think it was a movie
about transvestites.  This is why the ads sum up the entire plot of
the movie during the trailer: it is emphasized that Hoffman is only
doing this because he can't get a job as himself, and Tootsie only
appears in the last shot.  Finally, it appears that more than once
an edict has been handed down that "no black people are to appear in
the trailer", because audiences would think it was a film about
racism, which is supposed to "turn audiences off", at least as far
as the studios are concerned.  _Sugar_Babies_ and
_A_Soldier's_Story_ were mentioned by name; early teasers used the
_Kramer_VS_Kramer_ method to fit the bill.

The second category involved Sci-Fi and horror movies, where the
studio either does not want the monster revealed, or doesn't want it
to be thought of as a "typical high-brow Sci-Fi movie".

- Silver mentioned that she and Bob Greenberg saw _Alien_ before
  anyone else (Ridley Scott was apparently very gratified by how
  far she jumped out of her seat -- no one outside the dailies had
  seen the film before that).  However, they wanted something that
  didn't provide scenes from the movie: hence the classic "egg"
  scenario.  By the way, a neat piece of trivia: they did the Egg
  promo in one day.  The next time you see it, note the surface of
  the planet that the teaser pans over.  Look closely.  Wonder what
  that stuff is?  It's a brownie!  To simulate the alien landscape
  for the teaser, they baked a bunch of brownies and then panned
  over them with a special lighting.  Boy, those expensive special
  effects.  When the promo was shown after that fact, we probably
  became the first audience ever to laugh through an entire _Alien_
  trailer.

- Another example of this is the teaser for
  _An_American_Werewolf_In_London_; the teaser is made up of cuts of
  a swamp, and as it proceeds, blood begins mingling with the water.
  The whole thing climaxes with a huge hairy paw freeze-framed as it
  hits the water, and the slogan "From the director of
  _Animal_House_: a different kind of animal".  Apparently New
  Jersey was used for the swamps, almost all of them behind
  supermarkets (does this mean that supermarkets in NJ are built on
  swampland?), so they had to be careful not to catch the reflection
  of the Safeway signs in the water.  Well, you work an honest day,
  and you want an honest deal, Grrrrr....

- _Lifeforce_ was not supposed to describe too much about the film
  (which Silver agreed with, after having been shown the final
  product) , and so the eye over the world was used.  However, a
  doctor told them that getting a closeup of a human eye that close
  would blind the eye.  However, a camera worker knew a blind friend
  who had beautiful blue eyes; and thus, the eye that looks down
  upon the globe ironically couldn't see it for the stars.

- Finally, you may remember that the early _Superman_ commercials
  showed clouds flying by while the cast of the picture flashed by
  in those distinctive Superman credits (R/Greenburg created and
  produced them for the movie); this was done to try to make the
  film palatable to adults.

The final category that I can remember was the one dealing with
images, where the audience is to be taken in with a single image.
Examples of this included _The_World_According_To_Garp_ and the
flying baby sequence (done by placing the baby on a no-glare glass
plate and shooting under the plate, moving the camera to simulate
the kid being tossed).  Apparently this was not easy, as the little
tyke seemed to enjoy urinating onto the panel during takes, which
rather ruined the effect.  And _Ghostbusters_ led off with those
mystery posters that littered most major cities months before it
premiered (just the No Ghosts Icon and the words "Coming to Save the
World This Summer").

After that, Pablo Ferrer came on stage.  Ferrer started working for
Stanley Kubrick back on _Dr._StrangeLove_.  His trailers are famous
for quick cuts and text between images.  His most famous work is
probably the _Clockwork_Orange_ trailer, with the 1-second cuts and
the electronic "William Tell Overture" running behind it.  While
Paula Silver is definitely in the mainstream of the business, Ferrer
continues to work on trailers for independent films, where he has a
bit more creative control over what he does (his latest is for The
Talking Head's film _Stop_Making_Sense_).  Particularly interesting
was the version of the trailer he did for _Harold_and_Maude_, which
was never used because it (*GASP*) showed Harold and Maude kissing
and falling into bed.  Not to mention it had the classic "FUCK WAR"
sign (the one Harold's crazy one-armed Hawk uncle tears down).

All in all, an interesting evening and one which discussed how
Hollywood really sees its audience.

Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

From: ihu1g!rls@caip.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS
Date: 17 Jun 86 13:08:19 GMT

I read a little movie go'ers article about S. Weaver (I know I'd
botch the first name spelling) making the sequel to "ALIEN", titled
"ALIENS".  Ripley's story about the planet is not believed and she
returns for some evidence with some help and high tech weapons.
Anyone heard any more details.  I doubt if a sequel can top the
first...

Rick Schieve
...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 20:52:53 GMT
From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel)
Subject: Re: Leslie Parrish

David M. J. Saslav <SAZ@MCC-AI> writes:
>I just finished Richard Bach's stirring novel, "The Bridge Across
>Forever".

I'm not sure I'd classify it as a novel since it is mostly
autobiographical, but it is one hell of a good book.

>In the story, which is purported to be for the most part true, with
>no names changed, the heroine's name is given as Leslie Parrish, an
>actress by trade. At one point in the storyline, a fan comes up to
>her and says something to the effect of, "Hey -- I saw you in Star
>Trek!"
>
>Since I left my Concordance behind when I left for the summer, I
>hoped that if I posed the question of which ST role this woman
>played to this list, I might be enlightened.  Any guesses?  (My
>best guess is the role of the mother of Kirk's son in WoK, but I'm
>almost sure I'm incorrect.)

After I read the book, I was wondering about that also.  I was
especially wondering if she was a gorgeous as Richard Bach claims
(after all, he's married to her, so he's obviously not objective).
I started checking TV Guide listing of ST reruns.  A friend
remembered that Leslie was in the episode about Apollo, which
eventually came on and I saw it.  She is as good looking as he
claims.  She is the blonde who plays the obligatory non-regular
female character on the ship, a scientist who Apollo falls in love
with (and vice versa) when he captures the Enterprise.

I wouldn't've guessed any characters from the ST movies, 'cause I
thought the book made it fairly clear that it was from a TV episode
a long time before Richard Bach met her.

Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept.
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel@Maryland (Arpanet)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 03:23:11 GMT
From: sco!ericg@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

>  And for those who think that a woman should play the Doctor, why
>not consider having a show about Romana and K-9 (who knows what
>interesting stuff happened to them in E-space)?

Actually, I've had another idea.  A woman doctor would be wonderful,
but I think an extremely cultured Jamaican man would make a perfect
doctor.

Eric Griswold
ihnp4!sco!ericg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 23:50:00 GMT
From: duncan!clyde@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

   Also, The Master could not be a future regeneration of The Doctor
because in "The Five Doctors" it was revealed that The Master and
The Doctor went to The Academy together.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 03:48:31 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: How to kill mankind if you're an Alien Re: FOOTFALL

davidsen@kbsvax.UUCP (Davidsen) writes:
>If the object of the invasion is to hold and use the planet, many
>weapons become useless. You don't burn the house down to get the
>mice out.
>
>I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to
>eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate a
>biological weapon of a completely unknown type

This is perfectly reasonable.  In man's wars, we always have the
same biology as our opponent, and this limits the chemical and
biological weapons we can use.

I would think it would be very simple to make chemical weapons to
kill most of the human race.  We (humans) are constantly designing
pesticides, herbicides and other chemical weapons that safely kill
creatures with the same basic biology as ourselves.  Any race of a
more advanced technology should be able to do this to mankind
without even blinking.

Perhaps the race would not be harmed by nerve gas, or various other
poison gasses.  Bombs with such gasses, delivered from space, could
quickly wipe out most of the population while doing no damage to the
property.  Military targets could be destroyed with more physical
weapons.

This ignores biological weapons, which could be even better.  I
can't say I know, but it seems to me that making a plague to kill
all mankind would be much easier than making one that kill
selectively or dies out quickly.  Such a plague would be useless to
us, but a fine weapon for Aliens.

This is hardly new.  In both "V" and "The War of the Worlds", this
is exactly what gets the enemy, if by accident in the latter.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 04:46:32 GMT
From: lewey!evp@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Post)
Subject: Re: "@!%.::" party at Westercon?

Where is Westercon this year?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 86 0732-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #158
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:

       Books - Borges & Gibson (3 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
               Wells & Story Request Answered,
       Television - Star Trek,
       Miscellaneous - Eliminating Humans (3 msgs) &
               The TUCKER Awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 13:19:35 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Jorge Luis Borges

Jorge Luis Borges died last week, in Geneva.

'..With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that
he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him...'

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 16:00:46 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Burning Chrome

I have heard several times now that the new Gibson s.s. collection
will be or is called Burning Chrome; my question is this: does this
book exist; is it available?

mild spoiler

Another thing.  Am I the only person who finds "cyberspace" somewhat
unconvincing?  Mind you, I like the way it's done and the technique
is an effective one; it's just that I don't think it would be like
that.  This doesn't mean that I can think of something else that it
would be like, though.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 12:41:27 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Burning Chrome

   There's another Gibson book out, "capt" something or
something like that.

   Someone also gave me a third-generation rumor about a movie
version of Neuromancer !!  Any info on this would be appreciated !!!

> Another thing.  Am I the only person who finds "cyberspace"
> somewhat unconvincing?

   Try playing some really wild video-games someday !!  Now, ask
yourself: Would you rather hack to some interesting screen effects,
or to a paper-tape terminal ?  Sure, "cyberspace" is unconvincing,
that's why it's called "fiction"....
   In all seriousness, I don't see why cyberspace *couldn't* be. If
current data-storage techniques keep becoming more intricate at the
rate they are, some kind of construct will be needed, just to help
us poor mortals hold a useful idea of what's going on. If you decide
on something like Gibson's cyberspace, it then becomes a matter of
technology.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 19:19:50 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: William Gibson

   Any words about William Gibson's latest ? I read a review that
they were coming out ("Burning Chrome" and another one) soon, but I
have yet to find them. Anyone with updated rumors, please inform
me...

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 13:08:10 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Another variety of stuff

cjh@cca-unix.arpa writes:
>  1) Hazel Stone's claiming to be an adopted child just doesn't fit
>with her stories in ROLLING STONES; my recollection is that she
>talks specifically of being a colonist. (I also wonder about the
>social change required between MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (women as a
>protected species) and RS (Hazel says she left engineering as a
>young woman because 3 men -"who couldn't do Xth-order differential
>equations without a pencil and paper got promoted over [her]"-
>---in TMIAHM would she have gotten the chance?). In fact, RS is the
>Moon as a 1950's American suburb, which should be more than a
>couple of generations from the Australian frontier model of
>TMIAHM.)

   I dunno--a lot can happen in two generations.  Also, I want to
stress again that in _The Rolling Stones_ Hazel has, let us say, a
very liberal attitude towards truth in storytelling.  The main thing
is that she is in both books definitely Hazel Meade, one of the
Founders of Luna Free State.  That to me is a very strong
connection, and I haven't yet seen anything to the contrary
difficult enough to explain to convince me that the two universes
diverge again.

>  2) RS ties into the main-line universe---the ship has a near-miss
>with one of the UN's "peacekeeping" satellites, which are a feature
>in SPACE CADET (which memorializes Ezra Dahlquist, one of the
>heroes of the Future History).  The satellites could happen
>elsewhere, but I don't see the UN being that powerful in the GULF
>universe.

   First of all, _Space Cadet_ is not part of the main timeline,
though it comes very close.  As I pointed out before, _SC_ takes
place in a year in which, in the main timeline, America is cut off
from space because of the Interregnum.  Second, I think that a
satellite is a bit too minor a datum from which to conclude that the
universes are the same.  Third, I still am not convinced that "Gulf"
and _The Rolling Stones_ take place in the same universe, for
similar reasons.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 01:26:19 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Lazarus Long's mother

>connections until arguments like yours are all used up.  I used to
>worry about these things too: my favorite was how Lazarus Long
>cried like a baby the night his mother died ("Methuselah's
>Children") but told her later (eariler) that the families had no
>record of her death (_Time Enough for Love_).  Heinlein must have
>noticed this error, because he fixed it in _Number of the Beast_.

I just recently reread the story, and as far as I can remember the
only time LL cried was when Mary Sperling "died"*. She was a good
friend, but not his mother.

* Well, she didnt really die, but to say more would be to spoil a
small but significant piece of action, and I am loath to spoil
much...

Rah! Rah! Rah!
Heinlein fanatic extraordinaire
/amq

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 09:51:30 cdt
From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham)
Subject: Wells..a great or not?

Check out Jack Williamson's doctoral thesis, "H.G. Wells:
Critic of Progress."

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 15:59:41 GMT
From: 6082317@pucc.BITNET (Douglas Davidson)
Subject: Re: I know the title, where is it?

hack@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Jay Fenlason) writes:
>I recall reading a short story a while ago.  The title was
>"Cancerama Angels" (I'm fairly sure.) and it was included in some
>anthology.  I don't know who wrote it.  Now I can't find it.  Does

   I believe you are referring to "Carcinoma Angels", by Norman
Spinrad.  The story may be found in _Dangerous_Visions_, edited by
Harlan Ellison.  The title refers to a symbolic representation of
cancer cells as a motorcycle gang, the "Carcinoma Angels", with whom
the protagonist plays a little demolition derby in the course of
trying to cure himself of cancer.

Douglas Davidson
BITNET: 6082317@PUCC
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 09:55 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Star Trek quote request
Cc: Nancy I. Garman <NGARMAN@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

As memory serves:

Episode: What Are Little Girls Made Of?

A duplicate robot of Kirk is made and, as the personality is
imprinted, Kirk repeats the phrase: "Mind your own business, Mr.
Spock!  I'm sick of your half-breed interference, do you hear?"  The
duplicate, upon running into Spock, calmly used the same phrase and
wonders why it bothers Spock.  Spock, of course, is suspicious,
follows the duplicate with a landing party, and saves the day.

The tag goes something like:

Kirk: Is something bothering you, Mr. Spock?
Spock: Your use of the word "halfbreed"  You must admit, it is an
unsophistocated term.
Kirk: I'll keep that in mind . . . the next time I find myself in a
similar situation.

I'll try to remember to check my video tape tonight as I'm not
positive about the wording of that last line, the one you're really
looking for.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow)

davidsen@kbsvax.UUCP (Davidsen) writes:
>brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>>What I really hate is alien invasion stories that aren't crafted
>>as well as Footfall.  They have aliens with technology far beyond
>>ours having to fight a battle for control.  Things like V and
>>every B SF movie count in here.
>
>I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to
>eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate a
>biological weapon of a completely unknown type, or (b) introduce
>some weapon with no basis in current practice or theory, such as
>the "brain wave damper" which was used in a few *really awful*
>stories. As a matter of taste, I am not fond of new technology
>introduced with a bit of hand waving. If it's magic, call it
>fantasy, if not, do some work and base it on an extension of
>exsisting theory or practice.

   The alien invasion story you're looking for is
_The_Screwfly_Solution_ by someone who's name I've ignominiously
forgotten. The title comes from the extension of a method to
eliminate an insect pest. Researchers developed a chemical which
interfered with the screwflies pheromones in such a way that they
couldn't mate properly. The aliens used a similar technique to
eliminate humans; they developed a pheromone that caused men to
violently hate women. (This hate got rationalized into religious
fervor, an interesting touch). Eventually, every woman on Earth got
killed, leaving one generation of men to die out, and our aliens
have a nice clean world.

   This is not BS; I've seen some work on pheromone control of
insects, at least on a small scale. It's not unreasonable for a race
with a higher technology to have a higher biology as well.

   Incidentally, I don't think you'd have to kill off _all_ the
women; I think there's some point at which the base population is
too small for growth; I don't know what it might be. This is a point
I'm interested in-- is is possible for one Adam and one Eve to have
populated the Earth?

UUCP:   ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit
USnail: Erich Rickheit
        85 Gershom Ave, #2
        Lowell, MA 01854
Phone:  (617) 453-1753

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 21:51:45 GMT
From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow)

Biological weapons seem like the best bet.  I don't know what you
mean by by "completely unknown type", but diseases like AIDS and the
Plague could be pretty effective.

Mass-produced, small, self-propelled kamikaze drones programmed to
seek out humans and then explode could be very effective.  Flood the
biosphere with them and let them wreak havoc for 20 years.
Similarly for tailored biological organisms.  (What would society do
if there were suddenly 10 man-eating tigers per square mile all over
the Earth?)

Of course, if you have decent space-going technology you don't
really need to worry about being selective.  Drop a few dozen huge
meteorites on the planet and then spend a few years cruising the
galaxy at near light-speed.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 02:50:43 GMT
From: 6082317@pucc.BITNET (Douglas Davidson)
Subject: Re: Re: FOOTFALL  (_Screwfly_Solution_)

rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes:
>   The alien invasion story you're looking for is
>_The_Screwfly_Solution_ by someone who's name I've ignominiously
>forgotten. The title comes from the extension of a method to
>eliminate an insect pest. Researchers developed a chemical which
>interfered with the screwflies pheromones in such a way that they
>couldn't mate properly. The aliens used a similar technique to
>eliminate humans; they developed a pheromone that caused men to
>violently hate women. (This hate got rationalized into religious
>fervor, an interesting touch). Eventually, every woman on Earth got
>killed, leaving one generation of men to die out, and our aliens
>have a nice clean world.

I am fairly certain this story is by Tiptree, for anyone who wants
to check it out; and very Tiptreeish Tiptree it is, too.  I think it
is one of the more successful in her common vein of <somebody does
to humans what humans have been doing to others without thinking
much about it>.  I liked it better, for example, than the ones
about the beavers and the goldfish ...

Douglas Davidson
BITNET: 6082317@PUCC
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 22:35:44 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: TUCKER Awards Nomination Form for SF-Lovers readers

          T U C K E R   A W A R D   N O M I N A T I O N S

A new award was instituted last year to recognize the activities of
that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention
partiers.  Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the
official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction
Convention Partying is the "Tucker".

The first two years awards are sponsored and administered by the St.
Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be
administered by a related group.  The awards will be nominated and
voted on by members of Czarkon 4 (St.  Louis' "adult relaxicon"),
and the rest of SF party fandom via St. Louis in '88 bid parties and
any fanzines or SF club newsletters willing to reprint this
nomination form and/or the final ballot.  **This includes
SF-LOVERS""**

There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or
dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan.  Couples or groups are eligible as a
single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is
eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the
presenting convention if they win.  Winners are not eligible for
re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible
again the following year.  The 1985 winners were:

     Special Grand Master Award:  Wilson "Bob" Tucker
     SF Professional:  Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle
     SF Artist:  David Lee Anderson
     SF Fan:  Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt

The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice
bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year,
award name, and the winner's name.  An instant tradition was begun
in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home
from the convention empty (many self-sacrificing volunteers helped
empty the awards).

To nominate someone for a 1986 Tucker Award, write their name (both
names for a couple) and address opposite the applicable category on
the form below, detach it along the dotted line, and mail it to
TUCKER NOMINATIONS, c/o St. Louis in '88, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO
63188.  Photocopied, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of the
nomination form are acceptable.  If you don't know a nominee's
address, and don't think the Award Committee will either, if
possible please include on the back of the form or a separate sheet
the name of a prominent SF person (whose address we CAN determine)
who may know the nominee and might be able to give us an address.
Your own name and address are requested, but not required, to
further assist in tracking down unknown-to-us nominees.

*Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to  *
*"zellich@ALMSA-1                                       *

                 NOMINATING DEADLINE IS 1 JULY 1986

                   1986 TUCKER AWARD NOMINATIONS

PRO TUCKER    name: ________________________________________________

           address: ________________________________________________

ARTIST TUCKER name: ________________________________________________

           address: ________________________________________________

FAN TUCKER    name: ________________________________________________

           address: ________________________________________________

      Small ($1 or less) donations will be gratefully accepted to
      defray award expenses, but ARE NOT REQUIRED in order to
      nominate or to vote.  Tucker Award donations will N O T be
      used to support the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 86 0753-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #159
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:

      Books - Macfarlane & Paxson & Generation Ship Stories &
              Title Mixup,
      Television - Erin Gray & Star Trek (2 msgs),
      Miscellaneous - Austin Science Fiction Newsletter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 06:16:42 cdt
From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham)
Subject: w. macfarlane

Many, many years ago (well, 10 anyway), I had an SF pseudonym
handbook.  I forget all the details, but I do recall W. Macfarlane
being listed as a pseudonym.  I guess Jayembee could come up with
the particulars of the handbook, and possibly check my (possibly
faulty) memory.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 14:51:27 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: BRISINGAMEN by Diana L. Paxson (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "Imagine that a shy graduate student has discovered the legendary
  necklace Brisingamen -- whose wearer bears the powers of the
  goddess Freyja, mistress of love and war...

  Imagine that Freyja's enemy, Loki, has come to San Francisco to
  steal it back, so that he can release his fiery reign of terror...

  Imagine that only Karen Ingold can stop him. Together with her
  unlikely allies -- a one-eyed biker, a red-bearded carpenter, and
  a spinsterly Tarot reader -- Karen must follow her enemy to a
  twilight world of myth and magic ... not unlike our own!"

This book has a lot going against it in terms of traditional fantasy
novels.  First, it takes place in the present. Second, by and large,
the characters are not the hero types. Third, two of the main
characters are Vietnam veterans, and their wartime experiences are
ever-present in their current lives.

The author pulls it off, however. There's not all that much magic,
so you don't feel that she's taking liberties to move the story
along. The story covers a few weeks and the action is paced
properly. The background of the main character and her boss make it
likely that she would get the necklace and, before too long,
recognize it for what it is.

I give this book 3.0 stars out of a possible 4.0. It probably won't
appeal to fantasy readers who want a fantasy world, and it's
certainly not science fiction, but I enjoyed it.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 13:08:10 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Another variety of stuff

jerry@oliveb.UUCP (Jerry Aguirre) writes:
>I have read many "generation ship" novels and the theme of cultural
>instability (ie revolution) is a common one.  I think it is,
>however, an unjustified one.  There are many existing examples to
>draw upon for isolated cultures and the trend is for greater, not
>lesser, cultural stability.
>  What changes that have occurred can usually be traced to OUTSIDE
>influences, not internal breakdowns.

   The thing about generation ships is that they carry their own
outside influences with them.  In these stories the inhabitants of
the ship have usually either reverted to near- savagery or were that
way from the outset, in either case not realizing that anything
besides the ship exists.  This situation usually _has_ lasted
hundreds or thousands of years.  But when some young Copernicus
comes along and one way or another discovers the truth (which is
usually about when the author picks up the tale), the resulting
clash of world views cannot help but be fairly destructive.

pH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 06:38:38 cdt
From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham)
Subject: Re: Re: COBRA by Timothy Zahn (mild

Nope.  Not "A Plague of Demons."  Maybe you mean "A Plague
of Pythons;" - that's Fred Pohl, and is a much more literate
and enjoyable book than Laumer's "The Hounds of Hell,"
which appeared in _Worlds of IF_ magazine ~1964(?) - Grey Morrow
cover.

"A Plague of Pythons" was recently republished as "Demon in the
Skull" with a good bit of rewriting; I think it improved the book,
myself.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 23:48:32 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@caip.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear)
Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent
Subject: work?

   Erin gray also did a 'made-for-tv' movie titled "Born Beautiful"
about an aging model and a newcomer (played by Lori Singer from
'Fame').
  Erin's character Betsy is looking for a way to gracefully retire
while proving that she is more than a face and Singer's character
Jodi is trying to break in to the business.  Not a bad movie, and
interesting both because of its view of the modeling business and
for the fact that both actresses began as models.

elizabeth a lear
UUCP:   ...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!ilacqua
ARPANET: ilacqua@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: ilacqua%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET: engemnc@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 08:02 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Leslie Parrish
Cc: David M. J. Saslav <SAZ@MCC.ARPA>

Leslie Parrish played Lt. Carolyn Palamas in "Who Mourns for
Adonais" the Star Trek episode where they run into Apollo.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 08:07 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Carlo Sampson's queries
Cc: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)

The quote in "Turnabout Intruder" was "Your world of Starship
Captains doesn't admit women."  Fans who have their own female
captains (I admit to being one myself) prefer to interpret this to
mean that a Starship Captain (male) has no room in his life for
women, rather than that woman aren't allowed to be Starship
Captains.

Much ST fan fiction, (and some of the pro published novels, such as
McIntyre's, read much like fan fiction) revolves around female
Starship Captains, so, for the fans at least, the ST cannon allows
female captains.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 13:48:40 GMT
From: ut-ngp!janeann@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Austin science fiction newsletter (long, but interesting)

Here's something I came across that might be interesting to science
fiction readers.  It's a transcription of CHEAP TRUTH, a newsletter
that's put out occasionally in Austin.  Comments welcome.  (No
responsibility taken for typos.)

   EDITORIAL.  SF notions dominate the current Geneva arms talks.
   In this issue, CHEAP TRUTH responds to the zeitgeist.

POP AGITPROP

   Since its unlikely birth, SF has been a trash medium, its appeal
restricted to a subcultural faithful.  But that appeal is widening
and is being culturally legitimized.  With the advent of the
Strategic Defense Initiative, the elements, themes, and modes of
thought native to science fiction have become central to worldwide
political debate.

   One SF splinter group has shown a laudable quickness in grasping
SF's new political potential.  Unlike traditional SF "movements"
this group of writers is not marked by literary innovation but by
its radical ideology.  For purposes of discussion we will refer to
them as the "Pournelle Disciples."

   This group has a number of strengths.  The first is their solid
publishing base in Tor and Baen Books.  A second is their claim to
tradition, especially the gung-ho technolatry that has marked genre
SF since the days of Gernsback.  Another crucial advantage is their
ideological solidarity, which gives them the sort of shock-troop
discipline that Lenin installed in the Bolsheviks.  In this case,
their Lenin is the redoubtable ex-Marxist Jerry Pournelle, who wears
multiple hats as writer, editor, theorist, and political organizer.

   Pournelle's importance to this movement is demonstrated by a
reading of his recent editorial effort, FAR FRONTIERS Volume III,
(Fall 1985), published by Baen Books.  The surprisingly dull stories
in this book pale miserably in comparison to Pournelle's numerous
bursts of naked political agitprop.  These are in every way more
intellectually challenging and emotionally disturbing than the
fiction.

   The gem of this collection is Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned," a
sequel to his commercially successful novel THE PEACE WAR.  In this
ideologically correct effort, radical Libertarians defend their
realm from an authoritarian army.  Thanks to their innate cultural
superiority and a series of fraudulent plot Maguffins, they send the
baddies packing with a minimum of personal suffering and a maximum
of enemy dead.

   This piece is worth closer study for its standard Disciple
elements.  First, and very characteristically, it is
post-apocalyptic, conveniently destroying modern society so that a
lunatic-fringe ideology can be installed as if by magic.  Convenient
bits and pieces of high-tech are paraded in a flurry of buzzwords.
Vinge avoids extrapolating their effects on society, because society
is in shambles.

   Pournelle's promotion of the moral obligation to keep and bear
arms is well known.  Vinge carries this libertarian love of personal
armaments to amazing lengths.  In his scenario, private citizens
own, not merely automatic rifles, but chemical weapons and neutron
warheads, thus carrying the libertarian argument to a kind of
logical *reductio ad nauseum*.

   The other stories are much worse.  David Drake, a Disciple
stalwart who specializes in military tales of a purported
"gut-wrenching hyperrealism," contributes a silly and utterly
negligible short-short about dimensional gates opening in a suburban
kitchen.  Despite its merciful brevity, it is still unable to make
any coherent point.  Rivka Jacobs' interminable "Morning On Venus"
spoils a vaguely interesting opening with pompous meandering.  By
making the hero an historian, Jacobs avoids the painful necessity of
extrapolating a coherent future, indulging instead in a confusing
mishmash of historical sermonizing.  Alexander Jablokov contributes
a flabby fantasy pastiche, which imitates Niven as slavishly as one
can without understanding him.  All three of these stories feature
much gratuitous offscreen sex, assuring the readership of the
authors' with-it frankness without the sticky necessity of actually
talking about f**king.

   John Dalmas contributes a decent male-adventure Western.
Unfortunately this story pretends to be SF.  It is set on yet
another colonial planet lapsed into barbarism, a fictional
convention that allows SF writers to espouse reactionary social
values without a blush of shame.

   Dean Ing's recent novel for Tor, WILD COUNTRY, takes a similar
tack.  This book, the last in a post-apocalypse trilogy, is a
meandering series of shoot-'em-up.  Its hero is an assassin.  The
villain is a gay heroin-smuggler, as if an America devastated by
nukes did not have enough problems.  Ing's hasty depiction of future
society is grossly inconsistent; ravaged and desperate when the plot
requires desperados, yet rigidly organized when Ing suddenly
remembers the existence of computers.

   The book is a Western, set in a West Texas conveniently returned
to the robust frontier values of Judge Roy Bean.  Men hold their
land, with lasers if possible, while women raise corn and keep the
home fires burning.  Ing struggles valiantly with Texas dialect:
"'Late, schmate,' growled the aging veterinarian, whose rough
cattleman's lingo masked an excellent education."

   The book is speckled with maps, diagrams, and lectures on the
Second Amendment, which, one learns, "absolutely and positively,
guarantees citizens their right to keep and bear arms."

   Like his fellows, Ing treasures this amendment, the last remnant
of the American polity that he is willing to respect.  There isn't
much mention of, say, voting, or separation of powers.  Power
resides in the barrel of a gun, preferably the largest and shiniest
possible.

   Janet and Chris Morris, who wrote THE 40-MINUTE WAR for Baen, are
down on terrorists.  The politics of this book are dominated by
adulation of the state of Israel, where every sabra carries a
righteous submachinegun. The heroes are counterterrorist CIA
assassins, whose purported fluent grasp of Arabic only fuels a
xenophobic hatred of Moslem culture.  They tactfully refer to their
murderous work as "greasing rag-heads."

   The female protag is a hard-as-nails liberated journalist: "Shit,
the world is ending, and you're Ms.-ing me?  I'm a Miss, not a Ms.,
whatever that is."

   The prose is often clumsy, dominated by run-on sentences and
misplaced clauses: "To most Foreign Service officers, even in the
Mediterranean, word came earlier than it did to Marc Beck, who was
babysitting a convention of genetic engineers with astronomical
security clearances being held at a private estate on the Red Sea
when an aide slipped him a note."  This was not an oversight; it's
the book's third sentence.

   Janet Morris is not a gifted prose stylist, but she means
business.  The most potent political treatise of the Disciples is a
work of nonfiction by Morris, David Drake, and Congressman Newt
Gingrich, the ultrarightist Golden Boy of the born-again contingent.
This book, WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY, presents the straight gospel of
Pournelle's private pressure group, the Citizen's Advisory Council
on National Space Policy.  It advocates "an effective American
monopoly of space," in which laissez-faire capitalists fill orbits
with "the Hiltons and Marriotts of the solar system."  These space
cities will be manned by Christian space-settlers, whose stern faith
gives them the backbone for the frontier life.  "The rise of
high-tech preachers on cable television is accelerating the
re-emergence of religion as a legitimate vehicle for explaining the
world.  Presently there will be religious software for home
computers and a host of modern high-tech efforts to spread a new,
electronic gospel...."

   With this treatise the gloves are off, and the Disciples come
full-circle.  This combination of 19th-century values and visionary
technolatry is a potent one which, though easy to mock, is easier to
underestimate.

   SF has power now, and it is our responsibility to see to what
uses that power is put.  Pournelle, as usual, has put it best, in
his argument for the Strategic Defense Initiative.  Peace,
Prosperity, and Freedom are his watchwords.  Peace: as an orbiting
Pax Americana over a world requiring American tutelage.  Prosperity:
for high-tech asteroid-barons, who will watch the disastrous
crumbling of communist society from the safety of orbit.  Freedom:
from any necessity of change or accommodation to other cultures.

   Naive space enthusiasts believe that humanity will climb into the
cosmos on a Pentagon payroll.  Many dislike the idea, but feel that
an allegiance with the military is a small price to pay for a life
of bliss in an orbiting O'Neill colony.  The psychological appeal
these colonies hold for us in SF is not hard to grasp.  An O'Neill
colony will be an airtight little world, of technically educated
white Americans gazing raptly at the stars.  A world soaring far
above the heads of threatening mundanes.  A world that is fandom's
objective correlative.

   SF has always been publicly identified with space flight.  There
is no shame in that.  But SDI's backers become the predominant
political spokesmen for SF, we will be associated from now on with
X-ray lasers.  Whether we like it or not.

   In the final analysis, it does not matter that they write badly
or that their ideas are lunatic.  That has never stopped any of us.

CHEAP TRUTH
809-C West 12th Street
Austin, TX  78701.

Vincent Omniaveritas, editing.
Todd Refinery, graphics [not shown here, needless to say]

NOT COPYRIGHTED

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 86 0808-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #160
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 160

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 86 16:16:14 GMT
From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski)
Subject: Re: The Elements in Tolkien's World

sadoyama@pavepaws.UUCP (Eric J Sadoyama) writes:
>Melkor seems to be master of both fire *and* ice.

Melkor as master of heat (NOT temperature) seems more reasonable:

>Manwe (?) is speaking to Ulmo, and points out to him that Melkor's
>fires have caused Ulmo's water to form clouds and the rainbow, and
>that Melkor's *cold* has created the snowflake.

Here, Melkor uses the addition of heat to vaporize water and make
clouds. He then takes away heat to crystalize the vapor into
snowflakes. Thus Melkor was master of the one 'element' heat, not
master of the two elements fire and ice.

Disclaimer:
But heat isn't an 'element' you argue? Well, it is more of an
element than fire or ice: ice is just water, and fire is just
material (earth) undergoing a chemical process known as combustion.
There is no unique substance to 'fire' itself.

Ron
ihnp4!bonnie!ron

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 06:02:25 GMT
From: ford-wdl1!jrb@caip.rutgers.edu (John R Blaker)
Subject: Re: more Ringlore

Mark Crispin writes:
>      In secret Celebrimbor, who had learned all of Sauron's
>ringlore, forged the Three.  These were given by him to Galadriel
>(Nenya), Gil-Galad (Vilya), and the chief of the Grey Havens
>(Narya) whose name escapes me right now.

It was Cirdan the Shipwright.

>Sauron gives his ring most of his native power, but a lot more.
>Sauron's ring is totally evil (more evil than he was when he
>created it) and the ring corrupts Sauron totally over the years.
>This is made quite clear in the history of the Second Age.  Sauron
>is far more corrupt at the end of the Second Age than he was at the
>forging of the rings, and more so in the Third Age.  The fact that
>he was bad-intentioned and powerful to begin with let him do a lot
>more with the ring than any of the other possessors did; the ring
>gave him power according to his stature.  But the ring corrupted
>him as it corrupted every other possessor.

No, no, no!  Sauron was NOT corrupted by the ring!  To quote Elrond:

   ...he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship
   with Moria, and there eagerness for knowlege, by which Sauron
   ensnared them.  For in that time he was not yet evil to behold,
   and they received his aid and grew mighty in craft, whereas he
   learned all of their secrets, and betrayed them, and forged
   secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master.
   But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three which he had
   made; and there was war, and the land was laid waste, and the
   gate of Moria was shut.

Excerpted from The Council of Elrond in The Fellowship of the Ring.

John R Blaker
UUCP:   ...!sun!wdl1!jrb (jrb@wdl1.uucp)
ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1.ARPA
and     blaker@FORD-WDL2.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 86 23:03:26 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Of Rings and Things...

I see someone misunderstood my posting (so what's new?  I'm not
certain I speak English...).  So I'm about to make a complete and
utter fool of myself trying to explain myself...

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>>The PRIMARY use, that you name above, is (all) related to moving
>>the wearer into the wraiths' plane.  This is its INTENDED effect
>>on lesser wearers.  Which is how Nazgul came about in the first
>>place.
>
>I still maintain that the primary use of the One was to convey the
>power of dominion and enslavement to its wearer.  Invisibility, a
>stretched lifespan, and greater contact with the wraiths' world
>were, as far as I can see from Gandalf's explanations, side effects
>a mortal would encounter.  The only effect Sauron seems actually to
>have intended on lesser users is that they be corrupted into lesser
>Dark Lords themselves, perhaps a sort of booby trap for his
>enemies.

But is that not effectively the same thing?  To exert the power of
Sauron you must be in Sauron's world... i.e. the same world as the
former King of Angmar and the other Wraiths.  [Sauron never intended
the One to fall into lesser hands, but he probably used what he
learned from the Seven and the Nine in making it, so it has
wraith-making capability which (in persons of greater stature) is
also manifested as the ability to control: they are powerful enough
to use Sauron's control channels within the Ring.]

>I will recheck this, but what I remember is that knowing the minds
>of others was part of the Ring's power of domination, to which
>Frodo's will was naturally not trained.  I also remember
>Galadriel's saying that she was aware of all of Sauron's mind that
>had to do with Elves, whereas she was able to obscure her own from
>him.  But I remember nothing about the Ring's conveying the ability
>to see into his mind.  To feel his presence, yes -- more on that
>below -- but to see his mind, no.  But I will recheck.

How do you ``know'' someone's mind without reading it?  Also recall
toward the end of RETURN OF THE KING where Gandalf, Galadriel and
Elrond stand around and mindchat at each other (``If any wanderer
had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard....  For
they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to
mind...'').  And those were only the Three.

>Substitute the word *power* for *mind*, and I agree.  It seems
>clear, though, that no part of Sauron's awareness was in the Ring
>-- if it had been, he would hardly have needed to have the Nazgul
>scouring half Middle Earth for it.

Nor does it have to be.  (Actually, the closest description, based
on my readings of LOTR, would be a cross between power and mind.
Sauron's mind was powerful enough that he could set a large part of
it into the Ring and forget about it...)

>Sauron was NOT aware of its approach at all -- if he had been,
>Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor would have been terminally
>interrupted very quickly.  The Ring certainly seemed to become more
>aware, and became an increasing torment to Frodo, mind as well as
>body.

I never said he could PINPOINT it.  But he was DEFINITELY aware that
some great power was approaching his realm.  No doubt when Aragorn
revealed himself to Sauron, his suspicions were allayed until too
late.  It WAS mentioned a number of times, however, that Sauron and
his servants could feel the power of the Ring, and demonstrated that
they could not pinpoint it even up close (else Frodo would have been
caught immediately in Gorgoroth; the King of Angmar could feel the
Ring nearby but couldn't tell quite where).

>Again, I see no indication that the Ring touched Sauron's mind at
>all -- he probably wished it did.  What I do see is that whenever
>Frodo put it on (at least, when past Lorien), it seemed to start to
>respond to Sauron's call to it -- in fact, on Amon Hen, it very
>nearly had the opportunity to give him away altogether.  But here,
>as above, it seems that the Ring was aware of Sauron, but not the
>reverse.

I interpreted it as: Sauron felt the Ring and was able to begin
pinpointing its location, but Gandalf attracted his location while
telling Frodo to take the Ring off; when he did, Sauron could no
longer pinpoint it.

The Ring is poweful but requires a mind in living circuit with it to
set its power loose (doesn't that sound familiar?  :-).  So someone
had to be wearing it before Sauron or the Nazgul could do anything
more than be aware that there was a lot of power somewhere nearby.

Of course, I may revise this in another reading.  I've been through
the books nine times and STILL I'm finding things...

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 13:08:10 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Another variety of stuff

>1) The Elves produce, BY THEMSELVES, the three elven Rings: Narya,
>   Vilya, and Anya(?).

   Nenya.  These were, respectively, the Ring of Fire (or the Red
Ring), the Ring of Air (or the Ring of Sapphire), and the Ring of
Water (or the Ring of Adamant), and were borne by Mithrandir/Gandalf
(who received it from Cirdan the Shipwright), Elrond (who received
it from Gil-galad), and Galadriel.  They were forged by Celebrimbor,
and Sauron never even touched them.

dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes:
>Just a reminder - remeber the words of the verse: [omitted] Doesn't
>it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings, there are
>21?!  And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the other 20,
>including one weilded by sauron? (another one.)

   Not to me.  The two lines you stress are simply elaborating on
the attributes of the One.  (-: Hey, by extrapolating along those
lines, there might actually be _four_ "Ones"! :-) Besides, no
mention is ever made of there being another One, which would hardly
be likely if such existed.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 03:10:57 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Chet Dobro)
Subject: Re: Of rings

Brandon Allbery writes:
>Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong wnough to use, included
>the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other
>Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron.  Re-read the sequence where Frodo
>discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring.

Another point in my favor that Sauron had another ring besides the
Ruling Ring.

Phone:  (617) 937-0551
USMail: P.O.Box 8524
        Lowell, Ma. 01853
E-Mail: ...!decvax!wanginst!ulowell!dobro

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 14:45:54 PDT
From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #152

Erich Rickheit writes:
>....Eru never meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth once it was
>fully made.

In the context of his argument that there was no "Overlord" ring.
While I agree that the One Ring is Sauron's Ring, this assumption is
a little off.  Illuvitar's continued interest and even intervention
in the affairs of the world are demonstrated several times after the
Valar begin to shape it:

   1.  The Elves and Men are directly Illuvitar's creations.  The
Valar do not know when they are supposed to appear and are
constantly awaiting them, even while battling with Melkor.  Part of
the Valar's anticipation is whetted by the desire to know more about
Illuvitar, and while the design of Arda is mostly their own,
(although brought to realization by Illuvitar's creative power --
the Secret Flame) , they have had no participation in the creation
of "Children of Illuvitar" at all.  Hence Elves and Men will reveal
to the Valar more about Illuvitar and his plans.  Of course, I
suppose you can be picky and say that the clause "once it was fully
made" includes the period at least up to the coming of the Elves and
Men.

   2.  At the time of Ar-Pharazon the Golden, when the Numenoreans
attempted to land on Aman the Blessed, the "Valar gave up their
guardianship and called upon the One".  This implies first that
Illuvitar was still the ultimate authority and overseer of Arda,
since the Valar are only Guardians of the world; secondly, and more
importantly, Illuvitar is the agent for the destruction of Numenor.
It is not the Valar who cast it into the sea and reform the lands,
but the One.  So at least once Illuvitar meddles fairly
significantly in the affairs of Middle Earth after it has been
created.

   3.  There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR.  Gandalf
says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant to find the
Ring, and not by its maker".  He is clearly implying that Someone is
helping the good guys.  It can't be the Valar, for they have laid
down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs of Middle Earth
only through human agents like the Istari, by persuasion and not by
force.

It would seem then, that Illuvitar does meddle, drastically and
subtly, with affairs in Middle Earth; the occassions are few, or
perhaps so seeminingly insignificant as to be unidentifiable.
(Gandalf may see the hand of the One in Bilbo's finding the Ring,
but the hobbit certainly didn't).  But they do happen.  And there is
the promise, in the Valaquenta, that Illuvitar has the final hand in
summing up the themes of Men, Elves, Valar and even Melkor, to the
ultimate realization.

Christe McMenomy
Rand Corp.
christe%rondo@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 21:19:43 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Of rings

Chet Dobro writes:
>Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky,
>   Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone,
>Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die,
>   One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne.
>
>   One Ring to rule THEM all, on ring to find THEM,
>   One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM.
>Pardon the emphasis in the second stanza, but that is my point.
>Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty (7+3+9+1) rings,
>there are 21?! And that the 'Ruling Ring' was crafted to rule the
>other 20, including one weilded by sauron? (another one.)

This conclusion doesn't seem to stand up either in the histories of
Middle Earth or in Sauron's logic.  What is the point of his having
a Ring of Power ruled by a second Ring of Power?  His only reason
for the Rings at all was to enslave their wearers -- what could
possibly be the point of having something of his own enslaved (even
worse if that thing had a hold on him)?  And the histories, while
speaking of the Three, the Seven, the Nine, and the One, say nothing
about any other Ring, and certainly not one superior to these 20.
Beyond and above all this, I know that the fate of all Middle Earth
was not balanced on Sauron's possible discovery of simply another of
the 20.

The 2 lines you've separated from the others simply qualify the
fourth line: the verse doesn't tell us what the Three, the Seven,
and the Nine were for, but it tells us horrifically what the One was
for.  I grant that the reference of "them" is not 100.00% clear, but
that's the way it is with poetry.

Personally, I think "them" and "them all" in those two lines has a
double meaning: it refers to the other Rings, certainly, but I think
it also refers to those who wear them, and those who follow the
wearers: hence the horror of the verse.

I also think the fourth line and the couplet are associated by this
parallelism:

          One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
   In the Land of Morder where the Shadows lie.

          One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
          One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them
   In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

I have separated them to emphasise where the punctuation is.  Also,
notice that the indentation makes the repeated phrase more
prominent.  A small point, and I'm sure it's debatable, but I don't
think it's an accident.

Well, you asked for comments.  I hope I haven't given you too much
more than you wanted.

Great discussion!  Let's keep it up!

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 22:10:48 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Rings (again...)

dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes:
>>Brandon Allbery continues:
>>Other abilities, which Frodo was NOT strong enough to use,
>>included the ability to read minds (especially the minds of other
>>Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron.  Re-read the sequence where Frodo
>>discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring.
>
>Another point in my favor that Sauron had another ring besides the
>Ruling Ring.

Sauron was (1) wearing the Nine (see earlier postings), and (2)
since his power and ``mind'' were in the One, which controlled the
others, he could be read by any wearer of the Rings of Power.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 86 0821-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #161
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony & Card (2 msgs) & Gibson &
                     Heinlein & Herbert & Spider Robinson &
                     Spinrad & Williams & Recycling Dead &
                     Author Request,
             Films - Aliens (3 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Westercon & Biological Warfare

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 86 14:25:38 PDT
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Piers Anthony

I just finished Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus".  Good stuff.  I
decided to read this book from a recommendation from this list.  I
have a couple questions :

   1) Is there a sequel to this book?  Evidently there is enough
      loose ends to make another book.

   2) How did PA ever come up with this story with dentists?
      In other words, what's the story behind the story?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 22:25:58 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Ender's Game short story
To: "BOYAJIAN@AKOV68.DEC.COM"@AI.AI.MIT.EDU,
To:     MAPS.CS.CMU.EDU!YAMAUCHI@AI.AI.MIT.EDU

From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com

>It also appeared in Card's collection UNACCOMPANIED SONATA AND
>OTHER STORIES, which, though out of print, is most probably easier
>to find in a used-bookstore or in your local library.

  It also appears in volume 1 of Pournelle's anthology _There will
be War_.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 06:18:05 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: morality in "Ender's Game"

My feeling is that anyone who wants to debate the morality of
"Ender's Game" should definitely read "Speaker For the Dead" first.
The two books are considerably more than just a book and its sequel.
Card has stated that he wrote Speaker first, and then had to write
Ender's 'cause people wouldn't know what he was talking about...
(this is in the nature of a rumor, but it makes a lot of sense when
you read the books)

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 20:51:36 GMT
From: tekecs!mikes@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Sellers)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome
Subject: Microreview)

> Burning Chrome is available from Arbor House in hardback only.

Really?  I read this story some time back in _Omni_ magazine...I
don't think it was a condensation or anything either.  I also recall
reading in the same magazine another story by the same author, or at
least it was in the same universe.  It had to do with a guy who made
rings the wearing of which would allow you to experience whatever he
had while wearing it, and his desire to enhance his experience by
getting some Zeiss- Ikon ocular implants (or somesuch; it's been a
while).  I remember liking both stories immensely.  It gave me much
the same feeling (as others have said) that Bladerunner did, even
without the benefit of a Tangerine Dream soundtrack :-).

> Buy it anyway.  It is well worth the money.  This a collection of
> all of Gibson's short fiction (i.e. everything except Neuromancer
> and Count Zero), and there is not a bad story in the bunch.  In
> fact, the majority of the stories are some of the best short SF I
> have ever read.
>
> If you are a fan of William Gibson, run, do not walk, to the
> nearest bookstores and search for this book.  If you are a fan of
> hard science SF, or a fan of literary (new wave) SF, or just a fan
> of good SF, this book is highly recommended.
>
> On a scale of -4 to +4, I give this a +4.

I wouldn't have reprinted all of the above except that from what I
have read of Gibson's work, I heartily agree.  Is Neuromancer as
good and/or in the same universe as his other stories?  What about
Count Zero and his other works?

Mike Sellers
UUCP: {any backbone site}tektronix!tekecs!mikes

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 22:15:16 GMT
From: ihnp1!ami@caip.rutgers.edu (Ami Meganathan)
Subject: Lazarus Long

Is Lazarus Long in any book other than Methusaleh's Children and
Time Enough for Love?  If he is in a short story, could someone tell
me in what book it's in.  Please post the answer, don't mail it.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 86 14:29:57 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Herbert, Frank

>David Albrecht writes...
> Personally, I think that Herbert only two books that were worth
>keeping (and I keep alot of pretty borderline stuff).  Dune and
>The Godmakers.  Given how lousy everything else he wrote was I
>have always been amazed how good Dune was.

I too always wondered about that. I've read about 15 Herbert books
that ranged from Great!!! (_Dune_) to worse than bad
(_Destination_Void_). I often speculated that Dune was written by
someone else and published under Herberts name, since nothing else
he had written was close. I finally found out that _Dune_ was
written for John Campbell, who (or so I am led to believe) spent a
lot of time working on the plot and characters with Herbert. I am
also told that Campbell rejected the sequel. Given Campbell's
reputation for inspiring great writing this makes a great deal of
sense.

Anyone else out there have more details on this??? I'm working from
old and sketchy memories.

Burch Seymour
Gould C.S.D.
....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 09:04:46 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Callahan's Secret

> Hasn't anyone else seen this one on the shelves yet??  In the
> foreword, Spider Robinson attempts to make two things very clear.

I bought mine less than a week ago, so it must have been on the
shelves no more than two weeks. It has four stories in it. Two of
them are simply wonderful (_Blacksmith's Tale_ and _Pyotr's Story_,
my favorite) and there is simply a great cover on it.  The final
story _The Mick of Time_ is rotten and sends the series off on a
very ambiguous and sour note.  The good stories definitely outweigh
the screwed up ending of the series.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 11:18:47 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: short story inquiry answered (probably for the 20th time)

Not "Canceroma Angels"; it's "Carcinoma Angels", by Norman Spinrad,
first printed in DANGEROUS VISIONS. Subsequently printed in (I
think) Spinrad's collection THE LAST HURRAH OF THE GOLDEN HORDE, and
in a number of other places. A good story, although hardly as
shocking as Spinrad thought it was then (-"Nobody writes a story
about cancer. Cancer is the one remaining unmentionable. The thought
of your own body going mad and turning against you revolts most
people"- [freely borrowed from Spinrad's intro in DV])

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 14:43:00 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL by Paul O. Williams (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "To the Pelbar, the sentence seemed a living death -- exile to
  distant Northwall for a year, isolated from the security and order
  of Pelbarigan society, facing the barbarian tribes of the Shumai
  and Sentani.

  But the rebellious Jestak embraced his punishment -- for only with
  the lore of Northwall and the battlecraft and bravery of the wild
  tribes could he accomplish what he sought. The woman he loved was
  a captive in Emerta, fabled city of the slaveholding Emeri. Jestak
  meant to free her -- and, if he had to, destroy utterly the power
  of the Emeri."

This is another instance in which the jacket summary probably wasn't
written by a person who had read the book. Perhaps someone gave this
person a three minute precis, from which the teaser was written.

The book is a lot more interesting and complex than the jacket makes
it out to be. Jestak doesn't know where his girl friend is when he
goes to Northwall, and he's never heard of Emerta.

The location is central United States, and the time is some hundreds
of years in the future, after a nuclear war has killed most of the
population and destroyed all large cities. Different cultures have
sprung up, each having different levels of technology and different
mores. The Pelbar are the most sophisticated from a technological
standpoint, but they tend to isolate themselves in a couple of
strongholds. The Shumai and the Sentani are Indian-like groups that
fight each other and the Pelbar except during truce weeks. Jestak is
an unorthodox Pelbar: he has a taste for the open spaces and the
knack for landing on his feet in bad situations. Previous to this
story he had a number of adventures, the outcome of which is that he
is a blood brother to one of the Sentani tribes.

You never know what you'll get in a novel about post nuclear war
Earth.  This one is pretty good. Though Jestak's ability to make
peace between warring groups is, perhaps, a little hard to swallow,
I liked the character very much, and I got caught up in the
adventure. Once the story gets started, it doesn't slow down.

I give this book 3.5 stars out of 4.0: it's very good. I'll keep it
and look for more books by this author.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 16:30:54 edt
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Recycling the Dead

I was recently reading one of the "heros in hell" stories, and felt
a considerable flash of annoyance over the recycling of historic
personalities.  When Farmer first (?) did it in _Riverworld_, it was
interesting, but he kind of wore it out (to me anyway) with the
continual flashbacks to Richard Burton's past in the later volumes.
Now, this set of authors seems to be well on the road to assembling
"Greatest Hit Characters from the Written Word, 4000 BC to Date".
It annoys me for the following reasons:

First, it only rarely conveys any particularly useful historical
information; Farmer had definitely read at least one Burton
biography, but everything had been filtered first by the
biographer's viewpoint, and then by Farmer's.  The end result is
usually mis-information on one level or another, just like the
pseudo-history doled out by the trashy novels section in the
supermarket.

Second, I feel it encourages a sort of lazy plagarism among authors.
"Hmmm, let's see, I need a swashbuckling adventurer here, where's
the _Biographical Dictionary_..."  I *don't* want the author
depending on my having heard of Julius Caesar so that he can assume
I'll extrapolate what I know into a complete character.

Third, I feel that it can be somewhat insulting to the memory of the
historical personage so plagarized - let their own works, and those
of their contemporaries illustrate their nature, not the SF author's
frequently unimaginative projection of their responses to contrived
situations.

jbvb@ai.ai.mit.edu
James B. VanBokkelen

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 1986 13:16-PDT
Subject: Query-Tucson author
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

I was recently in Tucson and while talking with a fellow librarian
learned that there is a woman science fiction author (or mystery
writer) living in Tucson but he and I could not think of who it
might be.  Does anyone on the Net know?

Thanks, Faye (Wilbur@Office-2)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 15:53:57 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: ALIENS

Rick Shieve (ihnp4!ihu1g!rls) writes:
>I read a little movie go'ers article about S. Weaver (I know I'd
>botch the first name spelling) making the sequel to "ALIEN", titled
>"ALIENS".  Ripley's story about the planet is not believed and she
>returns for some evidence with some help and high tech weapons.
>Anyone heard any more details.  I doubt if a sequel can top the
>first...

By now, as you may or may not know, the novilisation of ALIENS once
again penned by Alan Dean Foster is lurking in the shelves of your
local bookstores.  It will of course, answer any and all questions
you might have concerning the movie.  The book itself is quite good,
although I am not sure now whether I should have read it before the
movie's release.  Oh well.  If the movie is anywhere near as good as
the book promises then we are all in for a treat (or a scare as the
case may be).

Stephen Pearl
Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 18:16:33 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS

I read the trashy Dean Foster writeup of the plot. It doesn't seem
*too* awful, but it sounds like it's a *LOT* more violent than
ALIEN.  that's right kiddies....

Again, the *corporation* are total bastards and betray everyone, but
that's ok. I'd say it's not a bad sequel, but it too closely
parellels #1. And a 3rd part would entail blowing up the universe to
kill all the aliens. (that's a clue, folks)

M J Ranum

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 09:20:30 PDT (Thursday)
From: Morrill.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS

I saw the paperback in a book store with all the standard movie
credits on the back cover.  The blurb said it's about S. Weaver (I
forget the character's name) going back to fight the entire planet
of aliens before they decide to come to Earth for dinner.

Toby

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 13:49:54 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
To: lewey!evp@RU-CAIP.ARPA
Subject: Re:  "@!%.::" party at Westercon?

Ed Post asks:
>Where is Westercon this year?

July 3-6, 1986 (California, Southern)

   HALLEYCON/WESTERCON 39. Town and Country Hotel, 500 Hotel Circle
   North/P.O.  Box 80098, San Diego, CA 92138 ($58 sngl, $70 dbl,
   $12 per extra person).  GoH: David Brin; FGoH: Karen Turner; TM:
   Greg Bear.  5 Track Programming: The Worlds of Fandom (Art,
   Zines, Special-Interest Groups); The Land of Hard Science (NASA,
   JPL, L-5, The R.H. Fleet Space Theatre); The Lands of Horror and
   Fantasy; The Usual Outstanding Film and Video Programming; The
   UNEXPECTED event...yes, even planned for this...anything can go
   here!  And the usual gamut of events: masquerade, trivia bowl,
   Readings, Promotions, Local Clubs, Helpful classes, Useful Hints,
   and Worthwile Information. Memb: Supporting $10; Attending $15
   thru 31 Dec 84, $20 thru 30 Jun 85, $25 thru 31 Oct 85, $30 thru
   27 Feb 86, $35 thru 31 May 86, then higher at the door;
   supporters can convert to attending for $10 less than the
   attending rate at the time of conversion; $5 for kids (under 12)
   in tow.  Dealer Tbls: $45/tbl & option to buy 2 memb's @ at $15
   each (incl. 1 free memb. or $10 refund to site selection voters
   until 31 Oct 86); *Sold out* as of November 15, 1985, and there
   is a waiting list.  Art Show: $5 per panel (you can hang as many
   or as few pieces as you wish), 10% commission on sales; display
   cases will be available on an as-needed basis, but please write
   as soon as possible.  Info: Westercon 39, P.O. Box 81285, San
   Diego, CA 92138.

[the above extracted from publicly-accessible SRI-NIC file
<ZELLICH>CONS.TXT] See you there,

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 86 18:30:56 -0500
From: Aimee Yermish <ayermish@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: biological warfare between humans

Brad Templeton writes:
>In man's wars, we always have the same biology as our opponent, and
>this limits the chemical and biological weapons we can use. . .
>making a plague to kill all mankind would be much easier than
>making one that kills selectively or dies out quickly.  Such a
>plague would be useless to us, but a fine weapon for aliens.

Hate to tell you this, but it is not all that difficult to make a
biological nasty that is resistant to the antibiotics and vaccines
that are produced widely enough to protect a whole population.  Now,
if country X protects its population (or crops) because it knows
what will be effective, and then spreads the nasty, well, I think
you can see what happens.

Aimee

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 86 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #162
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:

            Books - Baum & Bradley & Garrett & Gibson &
                    Heinlein & Herbert (2 msgs) & Hogan &
                    Spider Robinson (2 msgs) &
                    Streiber
            Miscellaneous - Repopulating Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 17:10:53 GMT
From: valid!jao@caip.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Oz books

Jimmy Chen wrote:
> Does anyone out there in net.land have a complete list
> of the Wizard of Oz books?  If so please email it to me.

I tried email, but it bounced back (there were about 20 nodes in the
path, and it got through about 7 of them); however, the subject
seems to me to be of wider interest, so I am posting my reply:

L. Frank Baum wrote 14 Oz books; after his death the series was
continued by various others: I remember as a child reading 38 of
them.  The Baum books are the best:

The Wizard of Oz (original title: The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
The Land of Oz (original title: The Marvelous Land of Oz)
Ozma of Oz
Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz
The Road to Oz
The Emerald City of Oz
The Patchwork Girl of Oz
Tik Tok of Oz
The Scarecrow of Oz
Rinkitink of Oz
The Lost Princess of Oz
The Tin Woodman of Oz
The Magic of Oz
Glinda of Oz

I read all the Oz books when I was aged about 7 to 10, and this is
the best time to read them.  I recently (I'm now 30) re-read Ozma of
Oz and the Patchwork Girl of Oz.  I am happy to report that they are
still quite good, and I intend to re-read the whole series.

If you have children, I think that starting them on Oz books is the
best thing you could do to instill in them a love of books and a
healthy imagination.

John Oswalt (..!{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!jao)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 20:00:05 GMT
From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf)
Subject: Re: darkover...

From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
> I just finished "Darkover Landfall" by marion Zimmer Bradley and
> enjoyed it alot.  However, when I went to the bookstore, I found
> tens of Darkover titles and no idea which book comes next.  Can
> someone post a chronological listing of all the Darkover books and
> maybe some sort of rating system?  Any help would be most
> appreciated.

After Darkover Landfall, with a couple of exceptions, order is
mostly a matter of opinion, and therefore highly illusory.  I know
that I read them out of order, but that didn't detract from them.
just grab a dozen at random and enjoy!

cory
VOICE:  (714) 788 0709
UUCP:   {ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax}!ucrmath!hope!corwin
ARPA:   ucrmath!hope!corwin@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
USNAIL: 3637 Canyon Crest apt G302
        Riverside Ca.  92507

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 14:26:30 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: STARSHIP DEATH by Randall Garrett (mild spoiler)

The jacket reads:

  "They were in deep space, past the point of no return, when the
  saboteur struck. There were plenty of suspects, including an
  experimental robot, and many possible motivations. But when they
  found the first body, they knew they were facing a ruthless killer
  who would murder them all if he was not caught -- and blow up the
  ship if he was."

Based on the summary above and my familiarity with the author's Lord
Darcy detective SF novels, I started reading this book, expecting a
nice mystery, different, perhaps, than the Lord Darcy genre, but
still of a high caliber.  I was very disappointed.

The book has a short introduction by someone other than the author;
a little information about Randall Garrett is given, and a comment
is made which leads one to believe that the book is of somewhat
recent vintage: the writer states that the climax of the book has
elements in common with the recent Star Trek movie. Well, the
copyright is 1962, so a lot of time passed between writing and
publishing.

The story starts out quite well. The main character, Mike "the
Angel" Gabriel, is introduced. He runs his own high technology
engineering company and is a hulk of a man. The time and place are
not-too-distant future US. Before long Mike joins a spacecraft crew
to take an experimental robot to an isolated planet, and that's when
I started losing interest.

There are a number of problems with the plot and the characters.
There are two conflicting plots, one having to do with the robot,
and the other having to do with sabotage on the spaceship. Instead
of supporting each other, the two themes dilute interest and
suspense. The characters are somewhat poorly drawn, and I didn't
develop much of an interest in any of them.  I like the way the
author attempted to explain some of the technology involved, but the
three parts -- plot, character development, and technology -- just
didn't hang together very well.

Much as I enjoyed the Lord Darcy books, I can only give this book
2.0 stars out of 4.0 (its fair, but I went through the second half
somewhat fast just so I could finish it).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 18:52:43 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: A film of "Neuromancer"? (really Burning Chrome
Subject: Microreview)

mikes@tekecs writes:
>Is Neuromancer as good and/or in the same universe as his other
>stories?  What about Count Zero and his other works?

Yes, both Neuromancer and Count Zero are set in the Gibson's Sprawl
universe, and both are excellent.  Neuromancer won the Hugo, Nebula,
and Philip Dick Awards for best novel, evidently the first time this
has ever happened.

Count Zero is set in the future after Neuromancer, and some of the
events in Neuromancer have a direct effect on the plot of Count
Zero.  Therefore, I would recommend reading Neuromancer first.
However, Count Zero isn't really a sequel, so reading it first will
have won't spoil the plot that badly for Neuromancer.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 15:33:20 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long (contains spoiler)

> Is Lazarus Long in any book other than Methusaleh's Children and
> Time Enough for Love?  If he is in a short story, could someone
> tell me in what book it's in.  Please post the answer, don't mail
> it.

He's also in _The Number of the Beast_ and _The Cat Who Walks
Through Walls_, although he is the main character of neither.

S. Luke Jones
AT&T Information Systems
Middletown, New Jersey
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 14:54:42 GMT
From: mruxe!ajb@caip.rutgers.edu (A J Burstein)
Subject: Re:Re:: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow)

>Researchers developed a chemical which interfered with the
>screwflies pheromones in such a way that they couldn't mate
>properly. The aliens used a similar technique to eliminate humans;
>they developed a pheromone that caused men to violently hate women.
>(This hate got rationalized into religious fervor, an interesting
>touch). Eventually, every woman on Earth got killed, leaving one
>generation of men to die out, and our aliens have a nice clean
>world.

This is similar to what Frank Herbert did in _The White Plague_ .

                      ***Spoiler to follow****

A mad human scientist develops a plague to kill off all human women.
Eventually, only a few survive and they have to repopulate the
earth, (as well as trying to please a few billion men).

If alien invaders tried this approach, they would not have to be
100% succesful.  If only a few women (or men) survived, the human
population would be devastated in a few generations and we could put
up little organized resistance.

Andy Burstein
ihnp4!mruxe!ajb

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 14:46:09 GMT
From: hound!rfg@caip.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank

I believe your information is correct as far as it goes. And I share
your opinion of much of what Herbert wrote in his later years. But,
you shouldn't throw out all of Herbert's works unread. Try "Dragon
in the Sea", originally published as "Under Pressure."  THat was
probably also a Campbell vetted Herbert story, and was superb! In my
memory it stands as probably the best thing he ever wrote.

Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Jun 86 20:08:27-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #154
Cc: woody@JULIET.CALTECH.EDU

>I envision an advanced race of humans in a far off star, and
>finding this _HUGH_ (in their standards) ship with a whole bunch of
>dead humans, dead by violent (sp?) means.  The humans at this far
>off star are convinced that they are the only race of humans, and
>when finding this ship of death, they go nuts.  Where'd it come
>from?  What's its purpose?  Why did all those people die?

Forgive me if this has been answered (I just got back from a week's
vacation).

Hogan's Inherit_the_Stars is based on a similar premise (although
the humans don't go nuts, they just find a plausible (though
slightly incorrect) explanation.

evan
evan@csli.stanford.edu (evan@su-csli.arpa)
...!ucbvax!decvax!decwrl!glacier!evan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 08:44:59 GMT
From: jablow@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Eric Robert Jablow)
Subject: Re: how Spider Robinson ruined Calahan's Place for me (mild
Subject: spoiler)

Actually, I'm suspicious of everything Mr. Robinson does.  I mean,
the only thing I like about his Callahan stories are the puns.  I'm
tired of his habit of asking the reader to like a character because
he has the right hobbies.  I don't like the way he deals with sex.
And I hate his plagiarism.

Tell me, is there anyone else on the net who thought that STARDANCE
was just a rip-off of A CHORUS LINE?  After all, you have the dance
company, with a man with a knee injury, a driven woman, a wholesome
woman, a man who just decided to take up dancing on a whim, and two
gay men; crucially, you have a woman who can't get a job because she
has the wrong build--she's too big-boned, and her breasts are the
wrong shape.  Now, does anybody remember Pamela Blair (Val) and the
song she sings about the same situation?

   But after a while I caugt on.
   I mean, I knew what they were hiring.
   And I swiped a look at my dance card after an audition once.
   And it said:

      For Dance 10,
          Looks 3.

   Well,

   Dance 10, Looks 3,
   Dancing for my own enjoyment,
   Still collecting unemployment,   [I may be mistaken about this]
   That ain't it kid.
   That ain't it kid.

   Dance 10, Looks 3.
   It's like to die.
   Left the theater,
   called my doctor,
   for my appointment to buy...   [Dance 10, Looks 3--A Chorus Line]

I'll stop here; I'd have to rot13 the rest of the song.  But can
anyone tell me why Shara didn't "Grab a cab, come on, see the wizard
of Park and Seventy-third," for appropiate plastic surgery?  Women
have breast augumentations (as in Val's case) done all the time.
They even have breast reductions (as would be appropiate for Shara)
done all the time too.  Yes, elective plastic surgery is not
"natural" and not "wholesome", but then making a sex-for-money deal
with an executive, getting oneself crippled in space, and nearly
committing suicide is even less "natural" and "wholesome".  And this
story was set in the near future;plastic surgery would be obvious
even without a famous Broadway musical to provide the suggestion.
More on why I hate Spider Robinson's work later.

Respectfully,
Eric Robert Jablow
MSRI
ucbvax!brahms!jablow

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 86 19:27:17 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: How Spider Robinson ruined Callahan's Place for me (mild
Subject: spoiler)

No, I'm not talking about his "down-in-flames" syndrome in the
latest collection.  No, not the preachy attitude the stories ooze.
No, not the overly simplistic pop psychology.  No, I can put up with
all of that, and even learn to like it.  No problem.

But *GIVE* me the *LARGEST* possible *BREAK*, did he *REALLY* have
to blame the accident that killed Jake's family on a faceless
"spear-carrier" character?  One of the charming things about
Callahan's was that folks there eventually learned to live with
guilt and imperfection of all kinds.  The message of this
uncalled-for subplot resolution is that you *CAN'T* live with
guilt... the only way out, the only way to ever feel good about
yourself again is to *NOT* *BE* *GUILTY*.  Somehow, someway, it
*HAS* to be *SOMEBODY* *ELSE*'s fault, or you have to feel like
*SLIME* the rest of your life.  You can't just gain perspective on
the situation and learn to live with it, oh no, either you weren't
guilty, or you are slime.

A real nice message to leave us with, Spider.  Great job.

Sheesh.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Jun 86 01:58:41-PDT
From: James McGrath <MCGRATH@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Wolf of Shadows

From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
>(On WOLF OF SHADOWS) Unfortunately, the result seems to be a novel
>that is unrelentingly depressing.  ....  But I also think it
>provides too fatalistic a view--the point-of-view character cannot
>do anything to influence the course of events that is destroying
>his world.

The problem is that the book appears to be a book With A Message -
nuclear war is bad.  Like so many political tracts, it suffers
dramatically.

Jim

PS The NY Times just reported that the original Science report on
   Nuclear Winter was a vast overestimate of its effects.  More
   detailed models show temperature drops of 15 or so degress (as
   opposed to 45 degrees) lasting a couple of months (as opposed to
   a year).  And that is the worse case (summer attack, readings in
   the heartland).  While Nuclear Winter seems to be real, and will
   contribute to the damage already suffered, it is not nearly as
   devastating as it has been believed (certainly not a race
   exterminator/ecology destroyer).  An interesting fact is that the
   scientists were reluctant to publish their results because they
   were politically incorrect.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 17:32:17 GMT
From: netexa!elw@caip.rutgers.edu (E. L. Wiles)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (Really: Could one man & woman repopulate?)

Erich Rickheit writes:
>       Incidentally, I don't think you'd have to kill off _all_
> the women; I think there's some point at which the base population
> is too small for growth; I don't know what it might be. This is a
> point I'm interested in-- is is possible for one Adam and one Eve
> to have populated the Earth?

Considering what little I know about genetics, they'd either have to
have perfectly clean genes, or accept that their children are going
to have a huge number of genetic defects show up when they breed
brother to sister!  Incest would be a necessity in this case, as you
have specified One man and One woman to start with.  Their children
would either breed together or with the parents.  (A distasteful
idea, especialy due to the likely high number of birth defects that
would show up.)

However, to argue the other side: Assuming that a 'sufficent' number
of grandchildren were clean of defects, the gene pool would be that
much cleaner.  That appears to be a plus for inbreeding.  In fact,
live stock breeders do just this to clean out the bad genes,
preventing them from showing up later in the line.  (I still don't
like the idea..)

I know I'm going to get flamed, this topic has religous connotations
to no end!  At least try to make them entertaining! :-)

E. L. Wiles @ NetExpress Comm. Inc.
Vienna, Virginia.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 86 0911-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #163
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 86 22:13:47 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The One Ring

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
>   Close, but the Three had one more purpose, *preservation* of
>things the bearer cared about. This is in fact useful as a srot of
>weapon. Also knowledge itself is a weapon, which is another
>principle purpose of the Three.

    About preservation: quite correct; it had slipped my mind.
Which it shouldn't have, really, since it was perhaps the dearest to
the Elves -- to be able to keep all that the loved about Middle
Earth unstained forever.  Which of course they couldn't do, and that
was one of their greatest sadnesses.

    I was thinking of the word "weapon" in a more offensive sense.
While the Three might prevent Sauron from discovering where his
enemies were, or what their thought were, and while they would
quicken the healing from his damage, they could not equip armies or
launch assaults.  They were like shields, or walls, or medicine,
which may be considered "weapons" from a certain point of view.
None of them would knock a Balrog off its feet, for instance.

>   The maintenance of Lorien against outside forces, and even the
>ravages of time, was based on the power of the Ring of Adamant.
>Thus it was a powerful weapon indeed, keeping Orcs out and
>preventing decay over a large area.

    My opinion is that it was Galadriel's own power, as the greatest
Noldorin princess in Middle Earth and a kinswoman of Feanor himself,
that was the basis of Lorien's defence, and that she used the Ring
to amplify and broaden it.  But it certainly didn't keep Orcs out of
Lorien!  Remember the troop that invaded by night, almost under the
very trees where the hobbits were sleeping?  It was Elven bows that
dealt with them.  I certainly agree, though, that it must have been
Nenya which, amplifying the natural beneficial effect of the Elves
on their surroundings, made Lorien seem a living, breathing corner
of the Elder Days.

>It also my opinion that much of Elrond's wisdom came through his
>Ring of Power, and he was a major leader and bulwark against evil
>in the north of Middle Earth.

    Interesting.  I would have said that Elrond's wisdom was earned
through his own experiences: the son of Earendil, and the brother of
the first king of Numenor.  But, as Aragorn said, "that does not
make what you say untrue", since Elrond was certainly a bearer of a
Ring and, as he himself said, they were all at work.  And the more I
think of it, the more evidence seems to be on your side, since
Cirdan the Shipwright was said to be the wisest of all the Wise, yet
he remained in the Havens, and played almost no part.

>It is an open question just how much of Gandalf's power over flame
>came from the knowledge and support given by the Ring of Fire. But
>if it did indeed help him in this way, it was part or what he used
>against the Balrog.

    I think the arguments associating Narya with Gandalf's command
of fire are astray.  In the Tale of Years (one of LotR's
appendices), the chronology of the Third Age begins with an account
of Cirdan's words to Gandalf when he yielded Narya.  I don't
remember it all, but the most explicit part says that the Ring will
help Gandalf raise flagging hearts, and I think that was the true
aim of Narya: to build morale and cooperation, and keep grief from
incapacitating people.  Remember, too, that all the Istari had their
special skills, yet they didn't have Rings.  If any artifact was
needed for their powers, it was their staffs.  Certainly Gandalf's
did its fair share.

>   ... it was not until Lorien that Frodo truly became aware of the
>power of the Ring except theoretically. Thus it would be hard to
>tell just how much it was increasing in power.

    He became aware of its power dramatically under Weathertop, when
he alone could see more of the Nazgul than just holes in the night.
And he became more aware in Bree of its tendency to give you away
unexpectedly.  But I agree with your conclusion.  As with the world
around us, the evidence one would like to see stubbornly refuses to
stand up and be counted.  Until its power increase became dramatic,
it was hard to tell whether it was happending at all.

>   . . . In that case Frodo's perception of Galadriel's Ring and
>her secret desires was the first sign of the increase in the power
>of the One Ring, since he managed to do so in *spite* of the power
>of Galadriel and the supression of other powers!

    You seem very much to want to attribute everything to Rings!:) A
major point of the scene at the Mirror of Galadriel, so it seemed to
me, was that Frodo had matured considerably, gaining wisdom of his
own.  And while he had gathered more about Galadriel than would
most, I think if he actually had seen her hidden desires, he would
never have taken the risk of offering her the One.  Let her be
tested in some other way, not with the safety of all Middle Earth.
But in fact, he was so impressed with her power, wisdom, and grace,
that he believed the Ring could actually safely be given to her,
that it would be safer than with him.

    I must say, though, that Galadriel's own words seem to interpret
things differently.  She seemed to believe he was testing her, a
"gentle revenge" for her testing his resolve, and that he had indeed
seen her thoughts.  I don't know what the answer is here.

>>One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was
>>Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it
>>concealed those of the Elves from him.
>And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring!

    And I say it was intrinsic to her as one of the greatest of the
Noldor, though amplified and extended by the Ring.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 86 03:15:18 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Of rings

rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes:
>Illuvitar? No; Eru never meddled in the affairs of Middle-Earth
>once it was fully made.

  When Ar-Pharazon, the last King of Numenor set foot upon the
undying lands the Valar set aside their guardianship of the world
for a moment and called upon Illuvitar.  The world was remade (note
this was AFTER the forging of the one ring) and Numenor was
downfallen, and the roads of the world were "bent" so no non-elves
could reach Valinor.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 19:52:35 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>The creation of the Rings of Power:[Summary]
>
>0) The Elves and the still handsome Sauron, make the lesser rings
>
>1) The Elves produce, BY THEMSELVES, the three elven Rings.
>
>2) Sauron forges for himself the One Ring.  He places in it a large
>part of his own power (and character).
>
>3) Sauron moves to seduce the other free races of Middle Earth.  He
>forges the Seven, to be given to the 7 houses of Dwarves, and the
>Nine, to be given to 9 Black Numenorean kings who serve him.

   I do not think this sequence is correct. There is considerable
evidence that the Elves had a hand in the making of the Seven and
the Nine, and that they were *all* made *before* the One. Thus I
would say:

   0)  The Elves begin to learn ring-lore, and start making
   various magic rings, of lesser power.

   1)  Sauron hears of this and comes in fair guise to take
   advantage of the Elvish lore. With his help they learn a great
   deal, and become very skilled at ring-making.

   2) The Elves and Sauron together make a number of Ring of Power,
   totalling at least 16. Somehow Sauron gains posession of these,
   by theft or guile.

   3) The Elves, because they desire knowledge and stability, are
   not satisfied with the rings Sauron has helped them make, and
   make at least three more, on thier own, which are closer to their
   desire.

   4) Sauron retires to Mordor and makes the One Ring in Orodruin,
   transfering much of his original power to it.  Celebrimbor,
   probably by means of his Ring of Power, is aware of Sauron's
   treacherey too soon, and causes all the Three to be hidden.

   5) Sauron begins pass out the Rings of Power in his possession to
   the more evil or pliable members of the various races. He gives
   seven to Dwarves, and Nine to Men.

> The Nazgul wear the Nine to the moment of their destruction in
>Orodruin's eruption.

        This is not what Tolkien himself said, he claimed that the
Nine were actually held by Sauron, thus giving him great power over
those enslaved by them even without the One.

>The Seven fail.  Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more
>lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to
>domination.  If anything, they become more secretive, and guard
>their hoards more jealously.  The failure earns the Dwarves
>Sauron's particular hatred.  Enraged, he exerts his power to draw
>the Rings back to him.  Though he is not successful.

   While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for
them, I would not call them total failures. They are probably the
reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the other
races, and thier reputation for greed. Certainly much harm was done
to Sauron's enemies because of them. Also, I would say that he was
*completely* successful in "recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons
were, in general, controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any
of the Seven it was at Sauron's behest.

>4) When the One Ring is destroyed in Orodruin, the power of the
>Three and all that had been done with them begin to fade, proving
>the fears of the Wise correct.  And I think this is at least part
>of the reason that the start of the Fourth Age sees the end of the
>Elves in Middle Earth.

   Absolutely, with the passing of the Three they could no longer
stand to remain in Middle Earth and watch the inevitable *change* of
mortal lands.

>So: the Elves had nothing to do with the One Ring, and Sauron had
>nothing to do with the Three.  And as far as I know, these are the
>only rings of power created in Middle Earth

   Again, quite correct, even if based on an inaccurate time line.

>I never thought about this before, but it seems to me likely that
>it was Galadriel's own power (and that of Caras Galadon, and the
>star Earendil) that revealed her Ring to Frodo.  Contact with the
>One had sensitised him, certainly, but he was not trying to use it
>in Lorien, nor would he ever have wished to.

   Ah, but Galadriel's power was, to a large degree, due to the Ring
of Adamant! Admittedly, it may have been her more *open* use of that
power that allowed Frodo to sense where it was comming from.

>  And though, in the parting at the Grey Havens, it was finally
>revealed, I think the revelation meant less than it formerly would
>have because of the degree to which the Rings' power had faded
>after the One was destroyed.

   Indeed, in fact by that time it is probably just a fine ruby
ring!

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 20:07:20 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: more Ringlore

   I think it is debatable just how real Sauron's repentence was at
the beginning of the Second Age. Also, I would say that by the time
he began to "help" the Elves in making the Rings, he was already
quite corrupt, partly due to his fear and loathing of Numenor, and
partly due to the corrupting influence of seeking power and
dominion. After the forging of the One, he devotes himself wholly to
these latter ends, and this alone is probably enough to account for
his increased corruption by the end of the Second Age. That is if
the increase was not an illusion to to his *pretended* innocence
earlier. Sauron was, after all, a master of deceit!

[A masterly summary of the effects of the Nine and the Seven
ommited]

>     In a letter to me in 1969 or thereabouts, Tolkien states that
>Sauron had physical possession of the Nine.  Therefore, apparently
>the Nazgul did not wear their rings, which was why the chief of the
>Nine was not recovered.

   This is also mentioned in a couple of the letters published in
"The Tolkein Letters". In one of these letters is a detail analysis
of what *would* have happened if Frodo had kept the One Ring.

>   I feel we have to take Tolkien at his (rather terse) word to me
>that Sauron wore the Nine himself.  I realize that one would think
>that the Nazgul couldn't survive without wearing the Nine, but
>that's a minor plot hole in an otherwise very good story.

   I doubt that they required *wearing* the Nine to survive, only
the continued *infuence* of the Nine, no more than having the One
taken from him would have killed Frodo.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 86 16:15:16 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Re: Of rings

> Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky,
> Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone,
> Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die,
> One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne.
>
> One Ring to rule THEM all, one ring to find THEM,
> One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM.
>
> Doesn't it seem to imply that instead of twenty rings, there are 21?

I think you're putting too much emphasis on a blank line (although I
have to admit that, the first time I read LotR, I wondered about the
same thing).  But if you merely move that blank line, you can get an
entirely different interpretation:

 Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky,
 Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone,
 Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die,

 One for the Dark lord, on his dark throne.
 One Ring to rule THEM all, one ring to find THEM,
 One ring to bring THEM all, and in the darkness bind THEM.

Since the book doesn't seem to mention an `extra' ring for Sauron, I
think it's easier to assume that Tolkien erred slightly in his
arrangement of the verses, rather than assume that he erred largely
in his ambiguous treatment of two `one' rings.

Richard Hoffman
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 13:16:08 GMT
From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Of rings

dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) writes:
>>other Ring-wielders, INCLUDING Sauron.  Re-read the sequence where
>>Frodo discovers that Galadriel is wearing the Elven-ring.
> Another point in my favor that Sauron had another ring besides the
>Ruling Ring.

Oh come on.  English is not a precise language so sentences can
often be read many ways.  But it is obvious to even a casual Tolkien
reader that the one "ruling" ring is the same as the "one" ring
which Frodo had.  For support one need only notice that no explicit
mention of any other one ring is given in any of Tolkien's writings.
Something that important would have had at least SOME mention (like
a name perhaps? to differentiate it from the other ring, like the
three were differentiated).  And besides, if it wasn't the one
"ruling" ring why would unmaking it end the reign of the power of
the other rings.  If it was truly a separate ring it would have been
a power apart and its destruction should not have affected the other
rings.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jun 86 0849-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #164
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 164

Today's Topics:

           Books - Gibson & Greeley & Herbert (3 msgs) &
                   Pini (2 msgs) & Spider Robinson &
                   Author Name Answered & Footfall
           Television - Erin Gray,
           Miscellaneous - Repopulating the World (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 13:42:18 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: William Gibson

mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes:
>   Any words about William gibson's latest ? I read a review that
>they were coming out ("burning chrome" and another one) soon, but I
>have yet to find them. Anyone with updated rumors, please inform
>me...

"Count Zero" (the other one) is now available through the Science
Fiction Book Club.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1986 11:45:06-EDT
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: The_God_Game by Andrew M. Greeley (mild spoiler)

     A couple of weeks ago, I took Andrew Greeley's new book,
_The_God_Game_, out of the library expecting it to be like his other
books (Mea Culpa, I sometimes read mainstream best seller trash.)
and I was surprised to find it including some SF and Fantasy themes.
The story is about an Irish Catholic priest (the narrator) who is
trying out an interactive computer adventure game with graphics
(sort of _King's_Quest_ squared) on his Compaq 286 when his setup is
hit by lightning and he is suddenly observing and interacting with a
parallel world where the characters in the game are living people
and he can influence events through his computer and the game,
giving him God-like powers in that world.  The story follows him
playing out the game and includes some "Psychic Slopover" between
the universes.

     All in all, not bad.  I have read better treatments of parallel
worlds, and of the temptations of power, but he puts them together
nicely.  Because of Greeley's past works, the book is not classified
as SF, but I suspect it would have been if it had been a first
novel.

     I would give it about 2 stars.  I wouldn't buy the hardcover,
but if you see it in the library or want to wait for the paperback,
it is worth a look.

Harold Wyzansky  (wyzansky@nadc.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 18:59:07 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank

rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:
>I believe your information is correct as far as it goes. And I
>share your opinion of much of what Herbert wrote in his later
>years. But, you shouldn't throw out all of Herbert's works unread.
>Try "Dragon in the Sea", originally published as "Under Pressure."
>THat was probably also a Campbell vetted Herbert story, and was
>superb! In my memory it stands as probably the best thing he ever
>wrote.

I was also favorably impressed by some of his short stories,
contained in 'The Book of Frank Herbert' (DAW) and 'The Worlds of
Frank Herbert' (Berkeley). 'Hellstroms Hive' is an interesting
suspense novel, but not exactly what I would call quality.

Alfred Bester is another good example of an author who only produced
really good stuff when working closely with an editor.  'The
Demolished Man' and 'The Stars my Destination' are great and the
rest barely worth reading...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 19:47:12 GMT
From: ihlpa!rael@caip.rutgers.edu (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Dune Sequels ??

Does anyone know, or has anyone heard of a sequel to the movie Dune?
I've read the whole series and can't wait for sequels.

Another book by Herbert would also make for an interesting movie:
Santaroga Barrier.

What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books?
(this could be interesting!)

(..!ihnp4!ihlpa!rael)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 24 Jun 1986 07:45:28-PDT
From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Herbert, Northwall

I would agree with the two opinions I saw recently on Frank
Herbert's works. The only books of his that I have kept in my
collection are _DUNE_ and _Under_Pressure_.  I don't remember much
about _The_God_Makers_, except that it wasn't good enough to keep.

Pertaining to the Northwall series: I read the first (?) book in the
series, and like most of Herbert's stuff, didn't enjoy it enough to
keep it.  However, that was 5+ years ago, and I may not remember it
well enough today.

Kevin Routley

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 86 23:59:07 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Elfquest

     I am looking for information on Elfquest, specifically about
whether there will be a new series detailing the new Holt, and about
where to get EQ tee-shirts and other memorobilia. And any other
information would be appreciated.

Thank you

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 19:54:04 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: Elfquest

To join the ElfQuest Fan Club, mail to WaRP Graphics, the address of
which escapes me at the moment, but can be found inside every issue
of ElfQuest.

Wendy Pini has said that the series will continue.  There are still
many plot ideas around: Winnowill is still alive, as is Two-Edge.
What will Dewshine's child look like and become (Will it inherit the
Glider's power?)

According to sources, there will be an ElfQuest cartoon series.
Larry DiTillio will be writing some of the stories under Wendy
Pini's auspices.  I don't know if she will do any of the production
artwork (I suspect not -- she's very busy at present).

Jeff Okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
..!ucbvax!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 13:39:38 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: how Spider Robinson ruined Calahan's Place for me (mild
Subject: spoiler)

jablow@brahms.UUCP (Eric Robert Jablow) writes:
>....  And I hate his plagiarism.

I don't ask you to like Spider Robinson's stories, but *do* try to
be a little more careful in your choice of words!  (If only because
I suspect that accusing an author of plagiarism is libelous.)

"Plagiarism" is whole hell of a lot different from "somebody reading
this might be reminded of this other thing."  It requires not just
ripping off an idea, but actually stealing large chunks of *text*:
precise copying.

I can't be sure of the timing (jayembee?) but I believe that
Stardance was published about the same time that Chorus Line started
on Broadway -- and that means it was *written* well before.  Thus it
is impossible that Stardance plagiarized CL.

>...you have the dance company, with a man with a knee injury, a
>driven woman, a wholesome woman, a man who just decided to take up
>dancing on a whim, and two gay men; crucially, you have a woman who
>can't get a job because she has the wrong build--she's too
>big-boned, and her breasts are the wrong shape.

That is a standard problem for dancers, and one of the most likely
things for someone to hit on as a Problem: and the man with the knee
injury is not just hampered, he's crippled!  Might as well claim
that West Side Story is a *plagiarism* of Romeo and Juliet.

(*My* suspicion is that Spider got that idea from Jeanne -- as she
is not equipped with the "classical" dancer's body herself.)

>....But can anyone tell me why Shara didn't "Grab a cab, come on,
>see the wizard of Park and Seventy-third," for appropiate plastic
>surgery?

That one is easy -- Shara was not only too busty and big boned, she
was TOO TALL.  A medical technology that couldn't repair a shot-up
knee would be pretty unlikely to be able to reduce height by six or
ten inches either.

And come to think of it, I think what's-his-name the main character
had a bad HIP anyway.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 21:45:21 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: Screwfly Solution Author

The Screwfly Solution was written by Alice B. Sheldon under her
pseudonym of Raccoona Sheldon.  Alice B. Sheldon is better known as
James Tiptree, Jr.  She is (according to a review I think I read in
*Destinies*) the only person to have won major sf awards for
pseudonymous stories.

Richard Bleiler

[Moderator's Note: Thanks to the many people who submitted the same
or similar information.  There are way too many to list here.]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 86 17:20:00 GMT
From: bsmith@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Should Footfall be taken seriously?

I'm rather new to this notesfile, so I've been sitting back and
reading other peoples notes.  One thing I've had a lot of trouble
with is the reaction of the readers to Footfall.  When I read it I
thought it was a parady on science fiction, but others seem to think
it should be taken as a masterpiece.

Let's look at it.  The world is finally visited by aliens (now where
have I read that?).  Being as wonderful as we are, we go out to meet
them with open arms, and what do they do?  They attack (now where
have I read that?).  It turns out that the aliens are really baby
elephants from another world (oh god).  They may have a language,
but they look like baby elephants and act like baby elephants, right
down to their love of mud (they have rooms full of the stuff for
them to wallow in).  Naturally, when confronted with this crisis,
what does the United States do?  Well, what any free and wonderful
country would do--they put together teams of science fiction writers
to save us from the menace!  Since everyone knows the Russians have
no imagination, they have no science fiction writers to save them,
and so they die.  While the science fiction writers are wallowing in
the mud with a captured baby elephant (and drinking gallons of
martinis to keep them fresh and clear headed), the U.S. nukes
Kansas, thus destroying the most productive wheat farms in the world
for the next millennia (anything to get rid of the baby elephants).
And what incredible weapons do the baby elephants have (everyone
knows aliens have incredible weapons).  Welllll, they throw rocks at
us (albeit with amazing accuracy [they have to do something right]).
Thank god it's getting towards mating season when they all become
sex crazed adult elephants!

        In the meantime the science fiction writers have learned the
baby elephant's language (and taught him ours), and have devised a
plan (it would all be so easy if we all just layed down on our backs
and let the baby elephants step on us!).  The plan involves a
radical new spaceship, which is propelled by thousands of atom
bombs.  This ship is built in total secrecy (even though it's the
largest ship ever produced on earth) and out of sight of even the
prying eyes of the baby elephants (now if they would only lay on
their backs and let us step on them ... after all, everyone knows a
baby elephant never forgets).  The plan, of course, is saved by an
environmentalist who drowns the big bad journalist in the toilet (a
fitting end for any journalist who works for the Washington Post,
since they'll do anything to get a pulitzer prize).  And, finally,
we win when we launch this ship, thus sending more radioactive
fallout into the atmosphere than any nuclear war would.  (In the
movie, the following message will be flashed on screen:

                      THE BEGINNING OF THE END

PS - Pssst - I've heard Pournelle and Niven are writing a sequel.
It will take place in the near future, when a giant dinosaur will be
released from its artic prison.  This dinosaur will then attack, you
guessed it, Tokyo.  We will attack back in a giant replica of a
flying reptile (the one in the Smithsonian was used as a model).
This will be manned by tens of (you guessed it) science fiction
writers, who will shoot nuclear arrows out the eyes.  In the process
of destroying the dinosaur, many of these arrows miss, and wipe out
the northern hemisphere of the earth.  Most Americans move to Brazil
(the wimpy American president has hundreds of shuttles drop enough
concrete to pave central America, thus fascillitating the move).  In
exchange, the Brazilians are given Kansas.  Many of them move there,
where (you guessed it) they all give birth to baby elephants.  The
book ends with the message:

                      THE BEGINNING OF THE END

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 20:06:45 GMT
From: bambi!schatz@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce R. Schatz)
Subject: Re: Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (Buck Rogers TV stars) -- recent
Subject: work?

For those in the New York area, Erin Gray also appears on
commercials for Bloomingdale's (a "swanky" dept store).  She's at
her seductive best as she concludes...  "It's like no other store in
the world".

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 18:51:48 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (Really: Could one man & woman repopulate?)

Erich Rickheit writes:
>       Incidentally, I don't think you'd have to kill off _all_
> the women; I think there's some point at which the base population
> is too small for growth; I don't know what it might be.

There is a recent article in Scientific American which examines the
lack of genetic variance in the Cheetah, and suggests that it is due
to reduction of the Cheetah breeding population to a very small
number sometime in the past.

The answer seems to be that, yes you can repopulate from a very
small breeding population (2).  But there will be a heavy toll, and
the eventual population will be 'genetically fragile' due to a lack
of variation.

I suspect that given sufficient time, (millenia * 10^?), mutation
and genetic selection will eventually create increased variety, but
in the interiem, the population is at considerable risk.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 18:25:24 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)
Subject: Re: Srewfly Solution

ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes:
>rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes:
>>I think there's some point at which the base population is too
>>small for growth; I don't know what it might be. This is a point
>>I'm interested in-- is is possible for one Adam and one Eve to
>>have populated the Earth?
>
>Ever hear of the Fibonacci sequence?  Yes, it's easily possible for
>one Adam and one Eve to have populated the Earth -- just assume
>that the women average 3 children surviving to adulthood.
>(Remember this is biblical times, when men and women lived 100's of
>years -- I think most women could manage to fit three pregancies
>into a 900 year livespan....)  Population goes up with
>order(1.5^n).....

   The mathematics of it I could work out (Yeh--I knew that. :-)
There are other factors, too, which I don't know much about. For
example, does the gene pool get too restricted. A great deal of
inbreeding must needs take place in such a situation, and it looks
like any bad genes would get reinforced in the long run. Also, if
we're talking about a devastaded population, many good traits might
get lost altogether.

   Also, you can't count on evolution to eliminate bad traits.
Humans societies tend to protect their weaker members, allowing them
to breed and perpetuate their genes. In a diverse gene pool, this is
not a problem; in a restricted one, it might be.

   Exempli Gratii: Supposes I were Adam (This is for all you girls
that said 'Not if you were the only man' :-) This almost guarantees
that all future inhabitants would acquire bad eyesight and
clumsiness, and we would have a race of people wandering around
bumping into walls, rocks, trees, small animals, large
carnivores...*

*(Not to mention a compulsive habit of posting things with smiley
faces to Usenet)

UUCP:   ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit
USnail: Erich Rickheit
        85 Gershom Ave, #2
        Lowell, MA 01854
Phone:  (617) 453-1753

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jun 86 0918-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #165
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 165

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 01:12:41 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Whither the Nine?

>Sauron was (1) wearing the Nine (see earlier postings), and (2)
>since his power and ``mind'' were in the One, which controlled the
>others, he could be read by any wearer of the Rings of Power.

He could be read, that is, by any wearer so trained in using the
Ring.  As Galadriel pointed out, Frodo was not; perhaps other
potential wearers (Gandalf, for instance) were, or at least, came
closer.  I suspect also that, given the gulf between Sauron's
desires and orientations and those of almost anybody/thing else in
Middle Earth, the wearer, even having achieved contact, would have a
hard time understanding what was there.  The little that Pippin saw
when he stole the Palantir almost did him in.  And he'd better be
subtle about it, or he would be decorating the dungeons of Barad-Dur
before he got much practice.

But this is curious.  At the Council of Elrond, in enumerating the
fates of the Rings of Power, Gandalf says "... the Nine the Nazgul
keep...".  I assumed, therefore, that they were still wearing them
when they flew into Orodruin's eruption.  I confess I hadn't thought
of the one that would have had to be lying in the Pelennor.

Well, either he was wrong, which is unlikely but still possible, or
perhaps Sauron, in preparation for what was to be his last, greatest
war against Elves and Men, took the Nine back to himself while the
Nazgul were engaged with the enemy.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 02:55:22 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Ring

>But is that [power of dominion] not effectively the same thing [as
>moving the wearer to the wraiths' plane]?  To exert the power of
>Sauron you must be in Sauron's world... i.e. the same world as the
>former King of Angmar and the other Wraiths.  [Sauron never
>intended the One to fall into lesser hands, but he probably used
>what he learned from the Seven and the Nine in making it, so it has
>wraith-making capability which (in persons of greater stature) is
>also manifested as the ability to control: they are powerful enough
>to use Sauron's control channels within the Ring.]

I don't think they're the same thing, because one (the power to
dominate) is the reason for which Sauron forged the Ring in the
first place, whereas the other would be utterly useless to him.  Why
would Sauron make himself a ring to pull its wearer into the
wraiths' plane?  He was there already, enormously so.  Dominion was
what he wanted.  Personally, I suspect that the "wraithifying"
effect occurred simply because the power Sauron had placed in the
Ring was based in the wraith's plane, and tended to pull its wielder
toward it.  I imagine the power in the Nine was calculated the same
way.  (Why do you indicate the Seven had that effect?  I know of no
evidence to suggest it. ) Nor is there any reason to think that
becoming a wraith would impart power.  Frodo would have gained none,
had the Ringwraiths seized him; and Gandalf, most definitely not a
wraith, had great power; so too, in a different way, had Aragorn.

>How do you ``know'' someone's mind without reading it?  Also recall
>toward the end of RETURN OF THE KING where Gandalf, Galadriel and
>Elrond stand around and mindchat at each other (``If any wanderer
>had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard....  For
>they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to
>mind...'').  And those were only the Three.

Sorry, I was unclear.  I meant that the Ring would let you see the
minds of those whom you dominated, which would presumably never
include Sauron.  But while Frodo was painfully aware, through the
Ring, of Sauron's presence and vigilance, he never saw Sauron's
thoughts, or he would have found out much about the West -- he might
even have learned that Gandalf was still alive.

I always thought that the "mindchat" was a native skill of three of
the Wise involved, seldom used, but nevertheless available.  But on
reflection, I'm sure that the Three would at least enhance their
abilities.  Don't forget, though, that this is communications among
willing parties, and not spying or invasion.

As you suggested, I reread the Mirror of Galadriel (thanks!)  Frodo
asks why he, the Ringbearer, is not permitted to see the thoughts of
the others, and Galadriel says he has not tried (and not to).  She
also says that she is aware of all of Sauron's mind that concerns
the Elves.  But as I thought, no connection is made between what she
can see and the One.

>I never said [Sauron] could PINPOINT [the Ring].  But he was
>DEFINITELY aware that some great power was approaching his realm.

I'm sorry, I still don't see this.  I recall nothing to indicate
even such moderate awareness.  Think of the opportunities he missed:
when the Nazgul turned and swept the Dead Marshes, over the hobbits'
heads; when the Witch King lead Mordor's first armies out of Minas
Morgul, with the Ring itself lying right opposite him, across the
valley; when Frodo was captured and Sam was actually wearing the
Ring in Mordor; when the Nazgul landed on Cirith Ungol, Frodo and
the Ring escaping not one mile from him.  At most, a faint call
seems to have been heard by some of the servants.  Whereas, had
Sauron had any idea that the Ring even might have been moving toward
his borders, Imlad Morgul and Cirith Ungol would have been crawling
with spies and guards that would have captured Frodo as soon as he
set foot there (we needn't even talk about more guards for Carach
Angren).  It was in major part to distract him from such thoughts
that Gandalf organised such large campaigns in the West, though he
knew that, if the Ring were not destroyed, the campaigns would
finally be defeated.  Why bother, if Sauron were aware of the Ring
approaching Mordor?  He would have ranged his armies around his
borders, sooner or later the Ring would have been taken, and so much
for Middle Earth.  In fact, he didn't, never imagining that his
enemies would send the Ring into the heart of his realm (Gandalf, on
the Quest: "let folly be our cloak in the eyes of our enemy; for he
is very wise, and measures all things to a nicety in the scales of
his malice..."; at the Cracks of Doom [of Sauron]: "...and the
magnitude of his folly was revealed to him, and all the schemes of
his enemies were laid bare at last").

>No doubt when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, his suspicions
>were allayed until too late.

Excuse me, is this quite what you mean?  The very last that knowing
of Aragorn would have done is allay suspicion.   Aragorn revealed
himself to scare Sauron into attacking too hastily, with his power
not quite fully developed, and to add to the number of distractions
to keep Sauron's attention from Mordor.

>It WAS mentioned a number of times, however, that Sauron and his
>servants could feel the power of the Ring, and demonstrated that
>they could not pinpoint it even up close (else Frodo would have
>been caught immediately in Gorgoroth; the King of Angmar could feel
>the Ring nearby but couldn't tell quite where).

Quite true, but they had to be VERY close to feel it.  Sauron would
have had the Nazgul in the Shire years before they actually were had
he been able to feel it, rather then spending years in fear as his
spies went everywhere they could trying to find word of it.
"Unfinished Tails" tells of this in The Hunt for the Ring.

It is certainly true that the *Nazgul* felt the Ring somewhat, at
close range, but I think that's because it was a source of the will
that drove them.  Sauron had no such relationship with it, therefore
no such feeling.

>I interpreted [event at Amon Hen] as:Sauron felt the Ring and was
>able to begin pinpointing its location, but Gandalf attracted his
>location while telling Frodo to take the Ring off; when he did,
>Sauron could no longer pinpoint it.

"His attention", I think you mean :) My assumption is that, on that
high seat, the Ring started calling, and the call is what Sauron
felt, the distinction being that the Ring had to initiate the
action; furthermore, once it had stopped, Sauron had nothing more to
follow (thank God).

>The Ring is poweful but requires a mind in living circuit with it
>to set its power loose (doesn't that sound familiar?  :-).  So
>someone had to be wearing it before Sauron or the Nazgul could do
>anything more than be aware that there was a lot of power somewhere
>nearby.

Though they might try to make the Ring more prominent by pressuring
the bearer to put it on -- still just the Nazgul, though, not
Sauron.  The contact with a mind certainly seems true, though
perhaps not universally -- it seemed to arrange its own loss from
Gollum, though he seldom wore it by that time -- and Frodo
(obviously) never wore it in Gorgoroth, but its effect on him was
still terrible.  There is a passage I wish I could remember
accurately when Sam, about to throw away his pans, asks if Frodo can
remember stewed rabbit in Ithilien.  Frodo answers that he cannot,
though he knows it happened; that no sight or sound of grass, no
breath of air, is left to him; that he is naked in the dark with
only the wheel of fire.  A magnificent and terrifying passage.  I'll
look it up when I get home.

>Of course, I may revise this in another reading.  I've been through
>the books nine times and STILL I'm finding things...

AMEN!!!  I think I make it more than ten times (I've lost count),
and the discoveries haven't stopped yet.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 03:44:30 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: more Ringlore

from Mark Crispin:
>  The rings were the creation of a combination of both Sauron's and
>Noldorian lore.

Not to mention Dwarvish.  This was the period of the great
friendship between the Elven smiths of Eregion (Celebrimbor the most
senior) and the Dwarves of Moria.  In those days the West gate of
Moria usually stood open.  They were shut shortly afterward, when
the Elves' discovery that their "benefactor" was Sauron caused the
War of the Elves and Sauron.

>At this time, Sauron wasn't totally evil; he had repented of his
>deeds as a servant of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, but
>declined to return to Valinor to be judged.

Please justify this.  As far as I am aware, Sauron had repented of
nothing at all.  After the terror of seeing what the Valar could do
when aroused, he was minding his p's and q's, taking care not to get
caught until his power was better developed; but his schemes were
laid even then, and his desires were enslavement, dominion, and
destruction, as they always were.  The fact that he had a physical
form which could look pleasant means nothing.  He wanted to trap the
Elves, and was using their love of knowledge to try to do it.

>He was obviously terrified by the power of the Valar against
>Morgoth (remember, Melkor/Morgoth was the most powerful Vala and it
>took the combined power of all the other Valar to defeat him).  He
>was also alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans.

This only affected how he presented himself.  It made him not at all
less evil.  In fact, it probably only increased his jealousy and
resentment, and his resolve to destroy both the Elves and the
Dunedain.

>  . . .Gil- Galad didn't trust him and refused to deal with him,
>but the Noldor in Eregion were more receptive.  After all, Sauron
>was originally a Maia of Aule, and that's the sort of person who
>would catch the Noldors' attention even if they should have
>realized that the "Lord of Gifts" rather suddenly appeared and
>Sauron (Morgoth's #1 servant) suddenly disappeared.

The Elves had no idea it was Sauron, or they wouldn't have touched
him with a ten-kilometre pole, knowledge or none.  They didn't know
until he spoke the Ring inscription from Mount Doom.  So they also
didn't know he was a Maia.  Nor do I know what you mean by "sudden"
disappearance and appearance: many centuries separated the breaking
of Thangorodrim and "Lord of Gifts" appearance.

>  At about the same time, Sauron, who had picked up all of
>Celebrimbor's ringlore, forges the One.  He very definitely wants
>to run everything at this point, and takes the easy path.  This
>includes use of the Black Speech, orcs, what have you.  It's sort
>of like falling for the Dark Side of the Force.

He wants more than to run everything: he wants the free races
enslaved.  I don't see what you mean by "the easy path".  Developing
the Black Speech, breeding more tribes of orcs, trolls, Nazgul
mounts, etc., could not have been easy, but they consolidated his
power, gave him armies and labour forces.

Are you trying to cast Sauron as an ancient Darth Vader?  If so, I
disagree totally.  Sauron was altogether more vast, more powerful,
vastly more evil, and his power was his own, not derived from
something naturally available.

>  Sauron gives his ring most of his native power, but a lot more.
>Sauron's ring is totally evil (more evil than he was when he
>created it) and the ring corrupts Sauron totally over the years.
>This is made quite clear in the history of the Second Age.  Sauron
>is far more corrupt at the end of the Second Age than he was at the
>forging of the rings, and more so in the Third Age.  The fact that
>he was bad-intentioned and powerful to begin with let him do a lot
>more with the ring than any of the other possessors did; the ring
>gave him power according to his stature.  But the ring corrupted
>him as it corrupted every other possessor.

How can an instrument be more evil than the use its creator intends
for it?  It is not at all clear that the Ring could or would corrupt
its own master, nor is it clear than Sauron has, or ever had, any
room left for more corruption.  It is true that Elrond stated that
Sauron was not originally evil, but that was before Melkor got to
him.  The history of the Second Age makes clear that Sauron's fear
of the Valar gradually left him, and he started behaving more and
more like his true self, but I see no evidence anywhere that he had
ever even slightly repented.  Even when the Numenoreans confronted
him with so great a might that he surrendered, his plans for final
destruction of Men and Elves were still brewing, and the Second Age
hadn't finished before they scored: the seeds of dissent he planted
culminated in the destruction of Numenor.  It cost him his body, and
he could never appear pleasant again, but it was still one of his
greatest victories.

The Ring was never intended to have other possessors.  It corrupted
them because they were using Sauron's power, which was totally evil.
But where it would take them, Sauron already was.  A wet sponge will
make your hands wet if you use it; but it can't make the sea wetter
than it already is.

>The ring of the House of Durin was the last to remain free.

There is a marvelous quote from Gandalf in Unfinished Tales,
recalling that Thrain had been thrown back into the dungeons of Dol
Guldur once Sauron had wrested that Ring from him; but Thrain still
kept the map of and key to Erebor, which made the Erebor expedition
("The Hobbit") possible.  Just to entice you to read the whole
story, I won't give the quote.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jun 86 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #166
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 166

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 17:56:31 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: Re: Of rings

   I think that the first four lines tell us briefly about the
Rings, including the number of the Rings.  The last two lines stress
the importance of the One Ring.  At least this is how I interpreted
the verses when I first read them.

   To me, Tolkien made no mistake (at least in this respect), and
there is no ambiguity in the total number of the Rings of Power,
which is 20, as indicated by those verses.

Steve Liu

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Jun 86 11:03:45-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #160

John Blaker isn't really reading what I said.  Sauron was corrupted
by the ring.  That does *not* mean he wasn't somewhat corrupt to
begin with.  He made a half-hearted attempt at reform at the start
of the Second Age, but didn't carry through with it.

His initial purpose in making the rings was to get power and
prestige.  When he learned enough, he saw his opportunity to make
the One, which would guarantee his hegemony over Middle-Earth which
he enjoyed for almost 2,000 years.  Yes, Sauron did betray the
Elven-smiths, and yes, he was a bad guy at the time of forging the
ring.

The point is that he got worse by virtue (couldn't resist that pun)
of the One.  The One gave Sauron power according to his stature, and
totally twisted him.  What little good was left in Sauron was
totally gone by the time Ar-Pharazon took him to Numenor.

In a sense, Sauron was as much a prisoner and slave to the One as
Gollum.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 22 Jun 1986 13:09:07-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth

In SFL Vol. 11, Issue 160, Christe McMenomy writes:
>   3.  There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR.
>Gandalf says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant to
>find the Ring, and not by its maker".  He is clearly implying that
>Someone is helping the good guys.  It can't be the Valar, for they
>have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs of
>Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by
>persuasion and not by force.

The Valar never permanently laid down their Guardianship of Middle
Earth.  When Ar-Pharazon sought to land on the shores of Aman, they
temporarily laid their Guardianship down, because the only
alternative would have been direct armed conflict with Men, who are
Children of Illuvatar.  Therefore, they called on Illuvatar, who,
after all, had created both Arda and Men, to handle the problem.
Which he did.  After that, they resumed their Guardianship.  See
also the Silmarillion, wherein it states that the Valar shaped the
world and CONTINUE TO DO SO even up to the present day.

The Istari (Wizards) are not human.  They are Maiar incarnated into
physical bodies.

You are correct about the Valar's meddling being restricted to
persuasion rather than force.  The affair of the Silmarils tought
them the painful lesson that using power or force to make the
Children of Illuvatar do something always leads to disaster.

There certainly are hints of a guiding power.  I am convinced that
it is the Vala Ulmo.  The Silmarillion states that Ulmo alone of the
Valar did not turn his back and abandon the Elves of Middle Earth
after the rebellion of the Noldor.  I think it is most significant
that Frodo has recurring dreams of the SEA, something he had neither
seen nor heard in waking life.  The Silmarillion states that Ulmo
often spoke through the voices of water.  I think that it was
through Ulmo's power that Bilbo found the ring.  It also may be
significant that Isildur lost the ring in a river (before it could
corrupt him, perhaps resulting in another Sauron--if Aragorn had the
power to wield the One [Gandalf and Sauron thought he did], surely
Isildur did).  Also that Smeagol found the ring in the river Anduin
(part of Ulmo's domain), and that while he kept it, he lived on an
island in a pool of water.

Anyway, I do NOT think that the guiding force for good was
Illuvatar.  Illuvatar created Arda in the first place to show Melkor
and the Ainur who followed him the folly of their ways.  Aside from
the one incident of Numenor, Illuvatar let the history of the Music
of the Ainur run its course.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 23:01:59 GMT
From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: Legolas

[Apologies for the delay in responding; I have been busy.  I
understand that most mortals consider several months a long time.]

From: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen)
>>Actually, his name was Legolas, which does indeed mean
>>"greenleaf" in Quenya (`Lego'="green" + `las, lasse'="leaf").
>
>But [Legolas] *is* Sindarin, or a dialectic variant of it.
>
>the proper Sindarin form of the name would be 'Laigolas'.

Well now I do feel dumb---though that still sounds a bit odd to me.
Ah well, languages do change.  I was thinking of `leg' + `las', not
`laigos', and the best I came up with was that `las' might be an
alteration of `last', giving `sharp-eyed' (keen + look).  (No one
would call his son `able-leaf', except perhaps in jest.)

Ah!  Come to think of it, Legolas was rather sharp-eyed at that.
What a marvellous pun!

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 23:46:08 GMT
From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: Orcs

From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
>... in "The Silmarillion" and other places, it says that Melkor (or
>Morgoth, as you prefer) created the Orcs by doing nasty things to
>captured Elves, whom he abducted from around Lake Cuivienen before
>the Valar found the Firstborn.

Some of us dispute this: the first Orcs appeared about the same time
as the first Men, as far as we know; but I myself think those who
claim that Orcs are a mockery of Men rather than Elves are just
being overly sensitive about their (how shall I phrase this?) ...
`distant relatives'.

>As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to
>Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???*

We certainly hope not!  Seriously, we have no evidence that Orcs are
immortal---though on the other hand none of us here have seen an Orc
dead of anything but violence, either.  For that matter, I myself
have never seen an Orc at all---for which I am thankful.  But unless
Orcs have as low a birth rate as we do (and ours is in some measure
voluntary), the world would be buried ten deep in orc-bodies, were
they immortal.  Well perhaps not, but I imagine you get the idea.
Elves can, with care, pass unnoticed among Men, but Orcs...?  Well,
then again, and considering the behaviour of some few Men I have
seen, perhaps---but no, I think you would notice.  I {\it hope} you
would notice.

>And what happens to a dead Orc?  Does it go to a special section of
>the Halls Of Nienor (sp?)

The halls are those of Mandos, whose `real name' is Namo, the Judge.
(Nienor means `mourning'; curious that you should pick that word.)
Well, anything is possible.  Those who returned to Aman may know;
but we here have no clue.

>and get reborn later on, like Elves do (I think)?

I have yet to meet a reborn Elf.  Yet I have heard of mortals said
to be born again---whatever that may mean.

>... two of the Mordor Orcs ... discussing the upcoming war ... say
>something like "It'll be just like the bad old days".

I found what I would guess is the quote to which you refer.  It runs
thus:

   `No one, {\it no} one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as
   you should know well enough.  There's no grief in that; but
   think---there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous
   than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old
   times, since the great Siege.  Something {\it has} slipped.'

We guess that this refers to the siege at the end of the second age,
about which Gorbag had no doubt heard stories.  (Actually, there is
a some difference of opinion, as must be expected among any group
our size, be it of Men or Elves.)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 23 June 1986 12:37:54 EDT
From: Steven.Lammert@cive.ri.cmu.edu
Subject: Guiding power for good

>   3.  There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR.
>Gandalf@* says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant
>to find the@* Ring, and not by its maker".  He is clearly implying
>that Someone is@* helping the good guys.  It can't be the Valar,
>for they have laid@* down their guardianship and meddle in the
>affairs of Middle Earth@* only through human agents like the
>Istari, by persuasion and not by@* force.

I disagree.  When the Valar laid down their guardianship of
Middle-Earth, and called upon Eru to foil the invasion of Aman by
Ar-Pharazon, my reading of the text is that this was not a permanent
arrangement.  Granted, in the Third Age they seem to restrict their
interactions with the Children of Illuvatar to intermediaries such
as the Istari (who were *NOT* human... Gandalf was a Maia, whose
"real" name was Olorin).  But Sam (and Frodo, I think) both called
upon Elbereth, and seem to have been aided by her.  I always have
believed that the phrase "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not
by its maker" referred to Elbereth or one of her kind.

Illuvatar, Eru, The One, is rarely mentioned in LotR.  I think that
the Valar are probably the ones that Gandalf had in mind.  After
all, he talks with some familiarity about the Blessed Realm and its
inhabitants; and though "removed from the circles of the world,"
they are still very interested in Middle Earth and its fate.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 23:18:23 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Rings AGAIN?!

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>>>One of the few tactical advantages the Elves had over Sauron was
>>>Galadriel's power, which could discern his mind even while it
>>>concealed those of the Elves from him.
>>And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring!
>And I say it was intrinsic to her as one of the greatest of the
>Noldor, though amplified and extended by the Ring.

Celebrimbor was powerful, but not that much so, I think.  Remember
that he was only and Elf; Sauron is a Maia.  During the Council of
Elrond it is said that when Sauron put on the Ruling Ring,
Celebrimbor became aware of him and hid the Three.  How would
Celebrimbor become aware of Sauron putting on the Ruling Ring?
Through the Ring's attachment to the Elven-rings.  So it is an
argument for the Rings conferring mind-reading capabilities (the
minds of other Ringwielders).  The conferences near the end of THE
RETURN OF THE KING also show this.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 23:33:32 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: And again, rings

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>>The Seven fail.  Though they make the Dwarves more covetous, more
>>lustful for gold, they in no way make them susceptible to
>>domination.  If anything, they become more secretive, and guard
>>their hoards more jealously.  The failure earns the Dwarves
>>Sauron's particular hatred.  Enraged, he exerts his power to draw
>>the Rings back to him.  Though he is not successful.
>
>       While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped
>for them, I would not call them total failures. They are probably
>the reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the
>other races, and thier reputation for greed.

This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the
Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace
Nauglamir.  But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril,
stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of Doriath.
This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves.

>Also, I would say that he was *completely* successful in
>"recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons were, in general,
>controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any of the Seven it
>was at Sauron's behest.

To which I respond with the argument used against my theory that the
Balrog of Moria was in communication with Sauron.  Dragons were
controlled by Melkor, before he was sent out of the world.  Sauron
didn't pick up the load, just as he didn't pick up the load of
controlling the Balrog.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 17:29:46 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: And again, rings

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>>While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for them,
>>I would not call them total failures. They are probably the
>>reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the
>>other races, and their reputation for greed.
>
>This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the
>Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace
>Nauglamir.  But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril,
>stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of
>Doriath.  This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves.

I thought the split was even earlier than that. Wasn't it
forordained at their creation that they wouldn't get along with the
other races?

------------------------------

From: cuuxb!wbp@caip.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #90
Date: 23 Jun 86 22:47:55 GMT

wad@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>   To my recollection, Gandalf is never directly identified as
>being a human, elf, hobbit or whatever.  There is a strong
>indication however that Gandalf was an elf since he possessed one
>of the three elven rings of power...

If you refer to the Silmarilon, you will find out that Gandalf is a
Valar, who is basically an agent of the Creator roughly equivalent
to a Demi-god or an Angel.  As such, he has been around since the
creation.  Other examples of Valar present in Middle Earth include
Tom Bombadil (a Valar who has gone to ground) and Saruman and the
rest of the Order of Wizards (who are sent to offset Sauron).

Perhaps an interesting question to the net would be whether Sauron
is considered as to have originally been a Valar, or whether his
start was as something much more powerful.  (My view is that he is
originally a Valar, but due to the tremendous amount of worship has
attained Godhood.)

I suppose it's time to reread the Silmarilon agian...

Walt Pesch
Computer Systems Division
AT&T Information Systems
ihnp4!cuuxb!wbp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 86 0814-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #167
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 27 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 167

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Cyberspace (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 20:04:28 GMT
From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman)
Subject: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

     There's been some discussion lately in this group about whether
William Gibson's cyberspace really makes sense. This question has
been kicking around fandom for a while, now. At least as far back as
LACon II, in '84, Greg Benford was proposing the idea that maybe
Gibson really didn't know how computers work. According to Willie
Siros, Benford reiterated this notion earlier this year at a con in
Houston (?).

     This suggestion generally elicits hisses and boos from Gibson
fans, based on the equation

         "I like the stuff" ==> "It's absolutely gospel"

     For example, take the intriguing notion forwarded here a few
days ago, that (paraphrasing text and spirit)

            "Yeah, man, it's just like video games !"

     Well, computers control video games, for sure. They control
Maytag washing machines, too. That doesn't mean I'm going to get
excited over a fictional universe in which man-machine interfaces
are modelled after spin-dry cycles. (Unless maybe John Sladek wrote
it.)

     (If, on the other hand, you'd buy interfaces like, maybe, the
net, check out Bruce Sterling's "Green Days in Brunei" from last
year's Asimov's - and probably in various Year's Best anthologies.)

     I think there's some confusion here between how convincing the
writing is and how convincing the ideas are. Gibson is as good at
making things sound real as you could possibly want. His world of
the Sprawl and Chiba City and Freeside is perfectly portrayed, from
stories like "Burning Chrome", "Johnny Mnemonic", and "The New Rose
Hotel" to *Neuromancer* and *Count Zero*. His ear for jargon is
admirable, and that helps to allow us to believe that all of this
marvelous construct is the way things might actually turn out to be.

     But, if all this magic were woven by one less skilled, what
would be left? In terms of technology, little enough. We actually
aren't told much about what the decks are really doing. We don't
know how biological senses are interfacing with that Ono-Sendai, or
how neural and electronic speeds are matched; and there are, I
think, a couple of good reasons for that.

     One is, I think, that Gibson has no idea, himself, other than
the same warm feeling for the idea that we've all picked up from
reading the same sf he has. The other reason - the one that matters
- is that it simply makes no difference. You come to sf with your
"suspension of disbelief" warmed up, or you'd better stick to tech
manuals.

     "Hard sf" is a phrase sometimes used to describe Gibson's work.
Obviously I don't think it fits. Go back a couple of decades and
look around, and I think we find ourselves closer to Ellison than to
Niven, but not particularly close to anyone.

     Nope, I don't believe in cyberspace. Except when I'm reading
what the man has to say about it.

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
Astronomy Department
University of Texas

------------------------------

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ?
Date: 23 Jun 86 05:59:51 GMT

howard@utastro.UUCP (Howard Coleman) writes:
>     But, if all this magic were woven by one less skilled, what
>would be left? In terms of technology, little enough. We actually
>aren't told much about what the decks are really doing. We don't
>know how biological senses are interfacing with that Ono-Sendai, or
>how neural and electronic speeds are matched; and there are, I
>think, a couple of good reasons for that.

   I think there is one very excellent reason for that.  We simply
have *no* *idea* how future high-bandwidth man-machine interfaces
will be constructed.
   We don't even have that much of an idea of how they will
function.  But, while I admit that I cannot say anything for
certain, certain observations about the design of these interfaces
seem reasonable:

(1) In the future there will be man-machine interfaces of
substantially higher bandwidth than teletypes or audio links are
even theoretically capable of.  This is both an extrapolation of
observed growth trends, and an obvious necessity if we are to use
machines as effectively as we use our own bodies.  Even something as
simple as driving an automobile requires a substantial channel
bandwidth.

(2) The primary link from machine to human will be visual (as it is
even now), simply because that is the only human sense of
sufficiently high bandwidth.  But those of us who don't have CRTs on
our chests can't use the same medium for the link from human to
machine.  The only possible way for a human to transmit large
quantities of information is with the system we currently use when
we need to transmit large quantities of information -- our
neuromuscular control system.
   Speech can be used to transmit a maximum of maybe 20-30 bits/sec,
tops.  A typewriter-style keyboard maybe 50 bits/sec.  It would
simply not be possible to control an automobile in a crisis
situation with speech.  It might be possible with a keyboard and a
lot of training.  But we do it *easily* with only a few simple
analog devices!  The human neuromuscular control system can use a
*single* analog device (e.g. a steering wheel) to transmit 100+
bits/sec, and further our bodies operate in such a way that we can
control many individual muscles in our body simultaneously and
automatically.  Can you type one text while simultaneously speaking
another?  I don't know what the total bandwidth of the human
neuromuscular control system is, but it must be on the order of
10000 bits/sec.

(3) Our neuromuscular system works most efficiently on a
subconscious or automatic level, in dealing with familiar physical
situations.  If I tell you: "Flex your right forefinger and your
left big and little toes" it will certainly take some time for you
to work all of that out.  But you perform far more complicated
maneuvers routinely in everyday activities such as typing at a
keyboard or even walking on irregular ground.  Certainly walking on
jumbled rocks requires a substantial and constant flow of
information to and from your brain.  But you are able to coordinate
your actions without having to think about the movements of
individual muscles.

   And this is really all that I can see about the construction of
high- rate man-machine interfaces.  That they must provide primarily
visual information, be under direct neurological or neuromuscular
control, and employ analogy to familiar physical situations.  How
such analogies are to be constructed, how the conversion to and from
a human-intelligible form will be performed, what abstractions and
concepts will develop, I cannot even guess.
   Gibson has done better than I; he has at least made guesses that
seem feasible and are not wildly unreasonable.  If they are not
exactly accurate, well, do we fault H. G. Wells because the Apollo
astronauts were not shot from a cannon?  No, we praise him for
getting the general idea correct; we recognize that he had no way of
even guessing at the technological details!

>     One is, I think, that Gibson has no idea, himself, other than
>the same warm feeling for the idea that we've all picked up from
>reading the same sf he has. The other reason - the one that matters
>- is that it simply makes no difference. You come to sf with your
>"suspension of disbelief" warmed up, or you'd better stick to tech
>manuals.

   Of course he doesn't know.  Neither does he know how we are going
to build the marvelous AIs he describes.  If he did he would be
making billions instead of writing novels!  No one, not the most
fervent hard SF author, can possibly explain *how* the technology is
going to work!  You can't possibly expect this!
   What you *can* (and do) expect are two things.  Consistent
technology -- the level of human knowledge should have progressed to
the same extent in all fields.  And reasonable engineering -- the
mechanisms used should make sense *given* the level of technology
available.  And here, I think, is where Gibson *succeeds*.  He
postulates a very reasonable technology of the not-*too*-distant
future, and does a very good job of making everything fit with that
technology.  Offhand I can't think of a single thing in
_Neuromancer_ that is either too advanced or too primitive for the
milieu in which it is placed.  And I think that is a remarkable
accomplishment.
   In the particular case of "cyberspace" the technology is very
reasonable.  Direct neurological hookups certainly can't be *too*
hard!  And the images are generally constructed from simple
geometrical objects (planes, spheres, simple curves) which indicates
a limited but still substantial bandwidth.  Note that the AIs, at
the forefront of technology, are able to produce more substantial
images in cyberspace.  Quite consistent with their higher
information-processing capability.  And the engineering is also
reasonable.  Clearly a standardized analogy for presenting
computerized information to the human interface has been adopted and
mass-produced (no IBM in this book -- no doubt the have a separate
standard and their own cyberspace :-) ).  An almost pure analogy to
physical movement is used for human control -- it is never made
clear in the book, but no doubt the finer muscular actions (e.g.
finger and toe movements) correspond to finer manipulations of the
computer interface.  No doubt the ability to coordinate these fine
manipulations is the main characteristic of the best "interface
cowboys."

   Anyway, I've gone on too long.  Hopefully I've at least managed
to convince you of the plausability of something like what Gibson is
trying to describe with his "cyberspace."  I *do* object to many of
the details of his presentation.  But the general idea is what
counts -- no one can be expected to predict the details of what is
essentially a completely new technology.  And the *idea* that Gibson
is presenting is (I think) an unqualified success in filling a big
hole in most attempts to describe future computer technology.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 12:22:25 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

        Isn't it a bit useless to quibble about Cyberspce ??  For
those of you who keep screaming "Well, how in the hell does it
work!!"  the answer is easy: It's fiction, guys, and that's the
whole point.  If William Gibson knew how to make Sense/Net and
Ono-Sendais, do you think he'd still be writing SCI-FI ?!!  The
whole idea behind enjoying a book, as far as I can tell, is that it
gives you a release (of sorts) from daily humdrum, traffic, taxes,
and deferred payments. So, I don't care if it's real, 'cuz it sounds
neat. If I recall, there were those who scoffed at "Journey to the
Moon" when it came out. Just hold your seats and enjoy your reading,
and who cares if it's *real* or not.

        On the more worth-speculating-about side, I continue to
argue that something like the net will someday become necessary. If
data technology keeps growing at this rate, why don't *you* imagine
going through a list of usenet sites in "vi". Some kind of
icon-based way of making it all make sense will be necessary. The
human brain (or mine at least) is already easily overwhelmed by the
speed with which most computers can produce output. (except my IB*
PC) :-) I know the hard core hackers may not like the idea, but
sooner or later I predict some form of icon-based control tools
(that may look like the net) will be necessary. Besides, I think it
would beat the hell out of a VT100 terminal anyway.

mjr

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 86 18:30:53 GMT
From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger)
Subject: Re: Gibson's cyberspace

Y'all might try looking at my paper "Graphical Database Browsing"
when it comes out in the proceedings of the 3rd ACM Conference on
Office Information Systems in October.  I won't claim it looks that
much like cyberspace, but it does include a quote from NEUROMANCER
(and references to Vinge's TRUE NAMES and Ford's WEB OF ANGELS too).
If the company knew they were paying me to read science fiction...

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.arpa
ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 19:41:58 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

Hmmm.....  I don't know whether Gibson knows anything about how
computers really work.  I do know that Vernor Vinge is a university
professor in the field of computer science and he proposed something
similar to cyberspace in "True Names" (an excellent novellette, by
the way).

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 86 18:52:39 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Cyberspace

mild spoiler (no plot details)

>> Another thing.  Am I the only person who finds "cyberspace"
>> somewhat unconvincing?  ... the technique is an effective one;
>> it's just that I don't think it would be like that. ...

>   Try playing some really wild video-games someday !!  Now, ask
> yourself: Would you rather hack to some interesting screen
> effects, or to a paper-tape terminal ?  Sure, "cyberspace" is
> unconvincing, that's why it's called "fiction"....

OK, but I didn't say anything about screen effects and certainly
nothing about paper tape.  And fiction is supposed to be untrue, not
unconvincing.

>> In all seriousness, I don't see why cyberspace *couldn't* be.

Well, that depends.  Perhaps an interface of the sort required just
isn't possible, but I'm willing to accept that much (alternate
visual input to the brain, &c), and even that the result could look
something like cyberspace as described by Gibson.  All I'm saying is
that I'm not sure that cyberspace *would* look like that.  I think
it would be stranger, but all I really have is questions, not
answers.

Think about moving through a visual representation of a computer
network.  Would it be Euclidean 3-space or would it have other
properties?  Would it be possible for it the be Euclidean 3-space?
How quickly could you change your point of view?  How quickly would
the network change?  (Remember that computers are much faster than
humans at some things...)  What would breaking into a database with
the aid of an "icebreaker" look like?  In Neuromancer, what does
moving up mean?  Does it make sense to organize things that way?

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 07:43:37 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Cyberspace

   I think it *does* make sense to organize things in that way,
because I think that is the only representation that the human brain
is able to handle.  Assuming that you are feeding in information in
a way that the brain is to interpret as "visual" information
(leaving aside for the moment the question of how this is done), you
have to face the fact that the brain is set up to analyze that
visual information as an image of a 3-D space.
   You say, "Would it be possible for it to be Euclidean 3-space?"
I say, "Would it be possible for it to be anything else?"  How can
you present visual information to the brain so that it is *not*
representing a 3-D space?  I don't even think it is possible.
   As for your other questions ("How quickly would things change?")
I think that it would have nothing to do with how quickly computers
actually operate.  You have to remember that everything is being
analyzed and reinterpreted so that it can be sensibly interpreted by
the human.  No doubt this would involve eliminating a lot of
essentially useless information.  But in any case it is certain that
all of the massaging that is done on the data would be carefully
designed with an eye on things like human response time and the rate
at which humans can process information.

David desJardins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 86 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #168
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 27 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 168

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony & Garrett & Gibson & Lem &
                     Milan & Pini & Robinson & Spinrad &
                     Recycling the Dead (3 msgs),
             Films - Bladerunner,
             Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 18:43:36 edt
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Piers Anthony

Someone asked about the origin of Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus".
The answer is in the notes for "Anthonology", which includes 3
chapters of "Prostho Plus". Those two are the only P.A. books I
bought, and I am sorry, and promise not to do it again!

In the "Anthonology" notes, he whines how hard it was for him to
make his first sales, and crows how he has made it big now.  No
wonder: as a writer, he is absolute trash, totally incompetent, and
I can only praise the editors who defended us from him.
Unfortunately, the market for trashy fantasy allowed him to get out
of the garbage cans and into the bookshelves ("it took me ten years
to elbow Asimov aside", quoth the buzzard).

What about the origin of "Prostho Plus", you ask? He wanted to milk
something more out of the money he paid for dental work.

Tony(abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 23:54:49 GMT
From: qantel!lynx@caip.rutgers.edu (D.N. Lynx Crowe@ex2207)
Subject: Re: STARSHIP DEATH by Randall Garrett (mild spoiler)

This is a reprint of Randall's book "Unwise Child", which I read
back in the early sixties.

D.N. Lynx Crowe
{dual, hplabs, lll-crg, ptsfa}!qantel!lynx

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 12:23:43 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: William Gibson

mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes:
>"Count Zero" (the other one) is now available through the Science
>Fiction Book Club.

Both "Count Zero" and "Burning Chrome" are only available in cloth
binding at this time at your friendly half-decent bookstore.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 20:30:32 GMT
From: axiom!gts@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy Schafer)
Subject: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem

Are there any other Stanislaw Lem fans out there?  He's my second
favorite author--my favorite in Science Fiction.  (Occasionally,
even Newsweek is right.)

Comments:

No two of his books seem to have the same translator--maybe after
translating one of his books, the translators change careers. :-)
There seems to be no consistency between his short stories and his
novels (I consider _The Futurological Congress_ to be a long short
story).  Is there a reason for this?  Even between Pirx the Pilot
and Ijon Tichy there is similarity of character but the stories are
almost as if by different authors.  The differences between _Return
From the Stars_ or _Memoirs found in a Bathtub_ and _The Chain of
Chance_ or _His Master's Voice_ are beyond those of any works by the
same author I've ever seen (perhaps Asimov is an exception, but he's
written everything).  I've also found that much of his work has the
peculiar effect of leaving almost no memory trace in my mind.  Is it
because of the language?  I certainly enjoy his work.  I've never
noticed this before with any other author--not one that I've enjoyed
this much, anyway.  Any psychology students want to give an opinion?

Questions:

Are there any other collections of his short stories kicking about
(besides _The Cyberiad_ (very funny), _The Star Diaries_ (the
language is amazing, pity the translators), the stories of Ijon
Tichy, the two about Pirx ("The Washing Machine Tragedy" is the
funniest short story of any genre I've ever read) and _Imaginary
Magnitude_ (not really stories, but still entertaining)?  I know
some of his short stories have been translated for _The New Yorker_;
have they all been collected into these volumes?  Are there any of
his short stories still untranslated?  I know some of his stuff has
waited (or taken) years to be translated, but he's much more popular
now.  Is anyone else upset that in the first story in _The Cyberiad_
(about the robot that could do anything that starts with the letter
N--talk about a translator's nightmare) that he chose *that*
particular thing to miss most?  Besides, everyone knows they're
still here.  Maybe it wasn't a word when the translators did it.

Just wondering.

...{ decvax!linus | seismo!harvard }!axiom!gts

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 22:19:40 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan

               THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan
                         Arbor House, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Lately, the emphasis is science fiction has been on computers.
Starting with Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES and continuing with William
Gibson's NEUROMANCER and the cyberpunk school (or "the
Neuromantics," as Norman Spinrad calls them), authors in the
Eighties are turning to computers the way authors in the late
Forties turned to atomic energy.  But most of them deal with the
enhancement of one's existence through the addition of an electronic
alter ego.  Milan goes back to a much older idea, that of the
artificially created being and applies computer technology.  The
result is neither an electronically enhanced human being nor an
artificial intelligence, but an artificial consciousness.

     In THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI, Japan has become the center of the
technological world, thanks in part to a limited nuclear exchange
(of which we find out very little).  The Japanese, though they still
retain feelings of superiority over other races in general, and over
Westerners in particular, hire Americans as engineers.  Dr.
Elizabeth O'Neill is one such American.  Her theories about how one
could create self-aware programs have placed her in disgrace in the
United States, but Yoshimitsu TeleCommunications thinks they have
some validity and hires her to build Tokugawa.

     O'Neill has grander plans than even Yoshimitsu realizes--she
wants to instill a moral sense into Tokugawa, a personality...in
fact, to teach him the code of bushido and make him the first
cybernetic samurai.

     Milan does a good job of portraying the private
inter-corporation battles hidden behind the public corporate
alliances which are common in Japan today.  He does have a major
problem however--he doesn't seem to know the difference between
Japan and China.  He speaks of writing Japanese with Chinese
characters and makes references to classic Chinese art and other
aspects of Chinese life in such a way as to imply that the Japanese
have adopted Chinese culture.  This simply isn't true, and it only
serves to jar the reader out of an otherwise well-drawn society.

     Tokugawa himself (herself? no, I don't think so) is as fully
developed as Milan's other characters.  And while O'Neill at first
seems drawn along the lines of Asimov's Susan Calvin, she rapidly
emerges as a unique personality.  Whether or not you think the
scenario Milan draws is likely, his development of an electronic
personality is thought-provoking.  The concept of a machine evolving
into sentience and perhaps even humanity is in many ways the
counterpart of the cyberpunk concept of a human taking on electronic
aspects.  While we can identify more with the latter (as many have
pointed out, eyeglasses and hearing aids are the first step toward
our becoming a race of cyborgs), Milan's picture looks at the
question of man versus machine from a new perspective.  In fact, he
shows us just how similar the two concepts are by portraying them as
approaches to the same middle ground from different starting points.
There is a single road connecting the human being to the machine and
each one can progress toward the opposite end.  Perhaps, somewhere
in the middle, they will meet.

     Intelligent machines have been portrayed before, of course, but
as logical machines (a la Asimov's positronic robots--they are
totally logical and show no initiative or personality).  Tokugawa is
a person in the broader sense of the term; he is one of the silicon
beings that may one day be campaigning against the "Carbonists" who
believe that only carbon-based life forms are entitled to rights.
Read this book.

Evelyn C. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 01:45:39 GMT
From: suadb!lindberg@caip.rutgers.edu (Per Lindberg QZ)
Subject: Re: Elfquest

There is also an Elfquest story in WArP Graphics Annual #1.  It's
the story of how Redlance got his name (those of you who have read
the book knows it). Pencils by Debbie Hayes, Inks by Paul Abrams,
Letters by Clem Robins, Colors by Lee Marrs.

Wendy Pini has not done anything (except, of course, the script
together with Richard), but the result is very true to the original
-- but it is not Wendy Pini Art. Very nice, but not the brilliant
stuff Wendy Pini has spoiled us with.

Wendy Pini, come back! Please!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 09:30:21 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Callahan's Bar (ruination of)

I made my comments on 'The Mick of Time' and the ruination of
Callahan's Bar elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here.  I WILL say
that if you read the intro to the new _Callahan's Secret_ (third and
final book to the series) and if you hear Robinson talk (he was GOH
at Baycon recently; he and his wife are wonderful public speakers,
by the way. Grab them if you can!) you'll see he is VERY defensive
about the way he ended the series.  We know he blew it.  He knows he
blew it, and he knows we know.  Unfortunately for an author, once it
is in print, it is too late.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 08:48:55 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Hoffman.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Follow-on to "Carcinoma Angels"
Cc: hack@MEDIA-LAB.MIT.EDU, 6082317%pucc.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU,
Cc:  cjh@CCA.CCA.COM

If you enjoyed Norman Spinrad's "Carcinoma Angels" as much as I did,
you will also enjoy what I view as his sort-of-sequel (in theme, at
least), "No Direction Home".

I don't know when or where it appeared, but I read it years ago in
one of Terry Carr's 'Best SF of the Year' collections.

Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 09:22:35 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Recycling the dead (Heroes in Hell series)
Cc: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU

I just finished the second volume of the _Heroes in Hell_ being put
out by Baen (don't let quality get in your way) Books. Phegh.

>I was recently reading one of the "Heros in Hell" stories, and felt
>a considerable flash of annoyance over the recycling of historic
>personalities.  When Farmer first (?) did it in _Riverworld_, it
>was interesting, but he kind of wore it out (to me anyway) with the
>continual flashbacks to Richard Burton's past in the later volumes.

I liked the way Farmer did it (sort of) although like most series it
went waaay toooo lonnnnggggg... HiH, unfortunately, is primarily a
_Thieves' World_ ripoff, using a cute but poorly executed gimmick.
There is absolutely no justification for the people who are IN Hell,
except that they are convenient to the story.  Most of the
characters are famous names from history with convenient
personalities written around them -- any resemblance to the REAL
historical characters is purely coincidental.

Each volume has the same general format.  Janet Morris (creator of
the series) buys reprint rights to a top line story from a good
author (in _Heroes in Hell_ Greg Benford does a good story on
Hemmingway; in _Rebels in Hell_ it is Silverbob on Gilamesh.  Both
are wonderful.  Both were also prepublished in the SF Magazines the
month the book came out).  The rest of the material is Journeyman at
best, mainly by lesser known authors.

_Rebels in Hell_ had a second good story: _There are No Fighter
Pilots In Hell_ by Martin Caidin.  Between that and the Silverberg
story, RIH is marginally worth buying.  HIH should be avoided.  What
is really disappointing is that there are a number of Cherryh
stories in these volumes, all of them drek.  She should definitely
be lending some class to the book, and isn't. sigh.

If you want to read some good collaborative anthologies, read the
two books in the _Liavek_ series: _Liavek_ and _Liavek: The Players
of Luck_ edited by Shetterly and Bull.  Great stuff, well thought
out, and fun.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 02:05:23 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Recycling the Dead

James B. VanBokkelen writes:

>the recycling of historic personalities.  When Farmer first (?) did
>it in _Riverworld_

Certainly not first.  R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates that,
if nothing else.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 20:49:26 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Recycling the Dead

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
> Certainly not first.  R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates
> that, if nothing else.

Try Dante's Divine Comedy.

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 86 18:20:06 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Bladerunner soundtrack

>It gave me much the same feeling (as others have said) that
>Bladerunner did, even without the benefit of a Tangerine Dream
>soundtrack :-).

Just for the record, the Bladerunner soundtrack isn't by Tangerine
Dream, it's by Vangelis; and the soundtrack LP isn't by Vangelis
(although it's presumably still his music), it's by the New American
Orchestra, or some such.  I was disappointed by the LP because it's
missing the part of the soundtrack that I liked best.  I can't,
unfortunately, remember which part of the film this was ... but does
anyone know if some of the Bladerunner stuff appears on any Vangelis
LP?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 14:52:59 PDT (Tuesday)
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

Recently in the Los Angeles I've been seeing Coka-Cola ads on TV
featuring a computer animated figure calling him self Max Headroom.
Is this supposed to be the same Max Headroom mentioned on SF-Lovers
a few months back? If so is this an indication that the series (it
is a british TV series isn't it?) can, or will be seen in the LA
area. If it's currently showing, where? ( i.e. cable, PBS video
tape?) If not, when?

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 15:22:56 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

Max Headroom is a computer model of the hero of a single, hour long
film that was first shown on British television (Channel Four) about
18 months ago.  There is no drama series of Max Headroom's
adventures, but the electronic character was subsequently used as a
sort of VJ (infinitely better than anything MTV has to offer) in a
series of half-hour shows.

The original film is definitely one of television's better
contributions to sf combining the imagery of both Blade Runner and
Neuromancer (but without Cyberspace) with the kind of surreality one
normally associates with the better class of music videos. In fact
the directors are better known for their music video work (Ultravox,
amongst others I believe).

The story line is also pretty good, though those people who insist
on bringing "real" science into sf will undoubtedly enjoy
complaining about the feasability of the explosive results of
blipverts, not to mention the computerisation of a human mind.

Anyhow, I don't know if it has, or is being shown on American TV,
but it's well worth seeing, so everyone get on the phone to your
local station and demand they get hold of it.

(Well, Max, today America, tomorrow the world...)

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 86 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #169
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 28 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 169

Today's Topics:

           Books - Adams & Garrett & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   Milan & Robinson & Wells & Williams,
           Films - What Would You Like to See (3 msgs),
           Television - Buck Rogers Theme & Star Trek &
                   Max Headroom

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 00:26:21 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@caip.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear)
Subject: Re: Inqueries about forthcoming releases

srouse@pavepaws.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) writes:
>klr@hadron.UUCP (Kurt L. Reisler) writes:
>>Does anyone know what happened to the rumored movie version of the
>>Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?
>
>According to the May issue of Box Office magazine, it's still in
>the development stage. Supposedly, it's being done by Columbia.

  Last year I helped interview Douglas Adams for the college station
when he was in Boston to promote "So Long...".  He had just come
from Los Angeles where he'd been involved in the infamous pre-pre
production, and dropped some hints like "well, I want to use the
radio cast in the film, not the BBC-TV cast, but I still don't feel
that they have gotten Trillian 'right' yet" and other vague stuff.

 Interesting notes:

   Adams' 'voice' is much like that of the Guide itself in the
     books.
   He is *very* tall - approx. 6'6" or 6'7".
   He appears in episode #2 of the BBC production.  (I realized this
     after doing the interview and months later re-watching the 6
     episodes - he is the one in the segment about digital watches
     who walks down the street, into the bank, out to the street,
     strips on the beach, and walks in the ocean.  "And some said we
     never should have left the ocean")

 Trivia:

   The 'Dish of the Day' in Milliways in episode #4 (#5?) is Peter
     Davison (_Doctor Who_).
   Sandra Dickinson (Trillian) is Peter Davison's wife (how do
     you think they got him to do it?).
   Hotblack Desatio's bodyguard in Milliways (#4? #5?) is David
     Prowse, the actor who played Darth Vader (but didn't do the
     voice).

eliz

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 16:36:20 GMT
From: hyper!dean@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Gahlon)
Subject: Re: STARSHIP DEATH by Randall Garrett (mild spoiler)

> The jacket reads:
>   "They were in deep space, past the point of no return, when the
>   saboteur struck. There were plenty of suspects, including an
>   experimental robot, and many possible motivations. But when they
>   found the first body, they knew they were facing a ruthless
>   killer who would murder them all if he was not caught -- and
>   blow up the ship if he was."
>
> Much as I enjoyed the Lord Darcy books, I can only give this book
> 2.0 stars out of 4.0 (its fair, but I went through the second half
> somewhat fast just so I could finish it).

Gack. _Starship Death_?  I much preferred its earlier title of
_Unwise Child_. If you're not expecting the story that a
melodramatic blurb like the above leads one to expect, it comes off
much better.  (I count _Unwise Child_ as one of my favorite books.
It's not a complex book, particularly, but I find it enjoyable)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 01:21:08 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Another Lazarus Long Question

I have read "Methuselah's Children", "Time Enough for Love", & "The
Number of the Beast", by RAH. I have not yet read "The Cat Who Walks
Through Walls", which apparently also includes Lazarus Long.

(Possible spoiler follows)

In TEFL, just before going back in time, LL is convinced to (to put
it in polite language) father children to be carried by his
"sisters", Lapus Lazuli and Lorelei Lee. In TNOTB, a lot of stuff
that happened after TEFL is explained by the characters, but no
mention is ever made of the children they were going to have. Does
anybody know what happened here?

Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the
blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he became
his own ancestor..." I haven't been able to figure out what in the
story this referred to. Any ideas about this?

Thanks in advance for any answers,

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp
nathan@mit-xx.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 06:55:17 GMT
From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question

Is there ANY evidence that the fools who write those blurbs EVER
first read the book they're writing about?!?  I have yet to see any.

Brent Chapman
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 13:52:14 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>... [Milan] does have a major problem however--he doesn't seem to
>know the difference between Japan and China.  He speaks of writing
>Japanese with Chinese characters and makes references to classic
>Chinese art and other aspects of Chinese life in such a way as to
>imply that the Japanese have adopted Chinese culture.  This simply
>isn't true, and it only serves to jar the reader out of an
>otherwise well-drawn society.

*Sigh.* Sorry Evelyn, but if it shocked *you* out of the story, it
doesn't reveal *Milan's* ignorance, necessarily.

1st point: Japanese *is indeed* written with Chinese characters.
These characters (known as *kanji* in Japanese) are chinese through
and through, having been imported in the (I think) 10th century CE.
Japanese does indeed have OTHER writing methods -- three of them!
(katakana, a sort of block-printed syllable-phonetic method;
hiragana, which is also a syllabilary (sp?), and romaji, the roman
alphabet.)

2nd point: Classical Japanese poetry is often written entirely in
Chinese characters, especially in forms that were imported from
China.  (Admittedly, the most famous form in the West is not --
haiku are commonly written in kana.  The 5-7-5 pattern can be really
pretty in a syllable script.)

3rd point: well, no, the Japanese have not *adopted* Chinese
culture, they have *adapted* it -- much as they are adapting Western
culture now.  But during the Kamakura period (roughly 13th Cen. CE)
Chinese culture was as much an influence on the culture of the upper
classes, especially the bushi, that it isn't an unfair thing to
claim major similarities.  But many of the major facets of Japanese
culture were nearly stolen bodily, rather than adapted.  Examples:
Buddhism, imported from China, and still using the Chinese
pronunciations of Sanskrit for the sutras; classical forms of poetry
as I've mentioned; Confucious's (oh, hell, I can never get that
spelling right -- k'ung-fu-tze, you know what I mean) k'ung-tze's
ideas for the organization of society, filial piety, the whole bit;
and plenty of others.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 86 19:49:39 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: STARDANCE vs A CHORUS LINE

   A CHORUS LINE opened on Broadway just about 11 years ago (some of
you may recall reading stories about the 10th-anniversary
celebration, in which they got several hundred alums back on the
Shubert stage).
   The second part of STARDANCE (from after Sharra's "death" to the
end of the book version) appeared in ANALOG around Labor Day 1978;
the first part had come enough earlier that it was up for a Hugo
that year.
   It's not impossible that the Robinsons had seen ACL; it's just
very unlikely. For one thing, they didn't (and don't) have the money
for Broadway tickets for another, I think they were already living
in Nova Scotia. They MAY have heard the soundtrack recording.
   But Sharra is so obviously Jeanne Robinson (to people who know
Jeanne at all---I do, some, because she was GoH at a con I ran) that
borrowing of Val (the "Dance 10, Looks 3" character) is totally
unbelievable. Also, even if Sharra weren't too tall, reducing "an
ass that looks like both halves of a prize muskmelon" (S pt.I) to
]serious[ dance standards is a much bigger job than "tighten[ing] up
the derriere"---it would ruin her balance, for one thing.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 06:36:51 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Wells..a great or not?

>As I talk with teachers and I read more, I keep geting the
>impression that teachers, librarians, and to be quite frank with
>you, almost everyone I talk to feels that H.  G.  Wells is not a
>"Literary Great".  Now, I have read a lot of his work ( (Specificly
>_Time_Machine_, _The_ Invisible_Man_, and _War_of_the_ Worlds_ and
>I feel from an overall standpoint trying to to rule out my love of
>science Fiction and I see him as one of the greatest writers of
>all time.  How About you?

Trust your instincts as least as far as science fiction goes.  Yes,
Wells is the greatest science fiction writer.  You have that on my
word as an authority :-).  I am constantly amazed at how many modern
ideas of science fiction are reflected in obscure little stories by
this man as well as his better known works.  I believe he invented
the alien invasion novel, the time travel story, the germ warfare
story, and many more.  In the 1914 novel THE WORLD SET FREE he
describes a new form of warfare using bombs that would destroy
entire cities that were dropped from airplanes.  These bombs would
be used in global wars of a scope not seen before when he wrote this
pre-WWI novel.  He calls these bombs "atomic bombs."  In the novel
they reduce mankind to savagery.  And his stories are often very
good fiction as well as having an amazing assortment of predictions.
I am not sure there would be a separate science fiction literature
today if he hadn't popularized it.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:06 GMT
From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL by Paul O. Williams (mild
Subject: spoiler)

duane@anasazi.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes:
>The jacket reads:
>  "To the Pelbar, the sentence seemed a living death -- exile to
>  distant Northwall for a year, isolated from the security and
>  order of Pelbarigan society, facing the barbarian tribes of the
>  Shumai and Sentani.

  This is but the first book in what either Paul O. Williams or his
publisher has termed the `Pelbar cycle'. So far there are seven
books:

1. The Breaking of Northwall
2. The Ends of the Circle
3. The Dome in the Forest
4. The Fall of the Shell
5. An Ambush of Shadows
6. The Song of the Axe
7. The Sword of Forbearance

  All are very good despite the fact that Paul's characters tend to
speak in short, choppy sentences, which gets slightly irritating
after a while.  That hasn't stopped me from buying each of the seven
as soon as it appeared on the bookstore shelf though.

  An interesting study in different cultures. There are the Pelbar,
who live in walled stone cities like huge castles and are ruled by
women; the Sentani who live with only what they can carry with them,
migrating north in spring and south in autumn; the Shumai who live
in the Central American plains and alone of the groups retain
horses..in Song of the Axe we are shown a group living in a valley
surrounded by glaciers who think the whole rest of the world is
frozen over (descendants of the `nuclear winter' believers?)...

  The seven books cover a span of about 25 years and show much of
the former United States and some of Canada.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
{gould9|sdcc3|crash}!loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 12:09:00 GMT
From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Films of favourite sf books

rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes:
>What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books?
>(this could be interesting!)

   I've discussed this before with sf-loving friends, and we came to
the conclusion that the Stainless Steel Rat books (Harry Harrison)
would make really good films - provided that the
writer/director/whole production team had the appropriate bizarre
sense of humour.

   We could never agree on an actor to play the mighty Slippery Jim
DiGriz though - Harrison Ford or James Caan perhaps?? And who would
play the delectable Angelina????? :-)

David Allsopp

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 86 08:39 EDT
From: Schneider.wbst@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #164

>What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books?
>(this could be interesting!)

I always thought "The Mote in God's Eye" was great schlock and would
make a good flick, although putting together a reasonable Motie
might be difficult.

Eric <schneider.wbst@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 23:36:22 GMT
From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

aa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes:
>   I've discussed this before with sf-loving friends, and we came
>to the conclusion that the Stainless Steel Rat books (Harry
>Harrison) would make really good films - provided that the
>writer/director/whole production team had the appropriate bizarre
>sense of humour.

  Hear, hear! Most any Harrison story that hasn't been done would be
a treat.  How about The Technicolor Time Machine ? (I suppose Star
Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers would be asking too much.)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 00:01:17 GMT
From: warwick!sahunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Hunt)
Subject: Theme tune of Buck Rogers in 25th Century

Today I found myself humming the theme tune from Buck Rogers in the
25th Century, and I wondered if anyone out there knows what the
music is (assuming it's not just "theme from Buck Rogers...")

I don't mean the opening theme; it's the closing theme I'm
interested in.  As I remember, there were lyrics at the end of the
movie, but none at the end of the TV show.

The tune is slow and mostly guitar (if memory serves me right.)

Replies by mail, please.
Thanks in advance.

Steve Hunt
Computer Science Dept
Warwick University
Coventry CV4 7AL, ENGLAND
...mcvax!ukc!warwick!sahunt
...mcvax!ukc!warwick!daisy!cstnbap

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 04:39:09 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Missing Star Trek episodes

Some years ago, I heard a rumour that there are 2 or 3 episodes of
Star Trek that were never bought up by any British television
company. Now that I have made it across the Atlantic, I would very
much like to see these episodes but unfortunately do not know their
names, or, for that matter, whether or not they really exist.

Could someone please enlighten me ?

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 16:02:20 GMT
From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM
>Recently in the Los Angeles I've been seeing Coka-Cola ads on TV
>featuring a computer animated figure calling him self Max Headroom.
>Is this supposed to be the same Max Headroom mentioned on SF-Lovers
>a few months back? If so is this an indication that the series (it
>is a british TV series isn't it?) can, or will be seen in the LA
>area. If it's currently showing, where? ( i.e. cable, PBS video
>tape?) If not, when?

I didn't see the previous postings on Max Headroom, but they are
probably about the same show.

The Max Headroom show is a 30 minute British video show with the
character Max Headroom as the VJ.  But before the show started
showing videos, the background of Max (the character) was set up in
several episodes done as science fiction.  Cinemax has shown quite a
few episodes, but not recently (although Max Headroom has been on at
least one Max-Trax special).

Max Headroom is actually played by an actor (not computer animation)
with gobs of makeup on.  The final picture is fiddled with to give
it the look of computer animation.

Leonard Bottleman
tektronix!tekecs!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 86 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #170
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 28 Jun 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 170

Today's Topics:

           Books - Herbert (4 msgs) & Footfall (2 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Cyberspace (3 msgs) &
                   Repopulating the Earth (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 17:24:44 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ??

Potential sequels:
   Lorna Dune
   Dune What Comes Naturally
   Dune With the Wind
   Dunebelow Station
   Dune, Dune on the Range
   Dune`t Cry
   Hush, Hush, Sweet Dune
   Dune Thousand and One
   Dune Thousand and Ten
   Close Encounters of the Dune Kind

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 18:12:41 GMT
From: utastro!ethan@caip.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ??

But she failed to mention
  Dunesbury
  Dune't Cry For Me Argentina
  Dune in Flames
  Dune and Out in Beverly Hills
  Dunetown
  Hey Dune (Dune't make it bad)

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 21:05:03 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ??

I owe Susan Hill an apology: She is not responsible for the Dune
sequels being perpetrated in her name and account.

Before I sign off, let us not forget:
   Dune by the Old Mill Stream
   My Dunie Lies Over the Ocean
   The Magical Mystery Dune
   Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club  Dune
   I Can't Get No (Dune) Satisfaction
   Paint it Dune Black
   Sunday Morning Dune Blues

And so on!
Richard Bleiler

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 03:39:30 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Dune Sequels ??

And, of course, the now-lost collaboration between Herbert and
Niven: RINGWORM

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 14:36:51 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: FOOTFALL by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (mild spoiler)

Time: the near future
Place: Earth (mainly USA) and in orbit near the Earth

Introduction: Astronomers discover an alien spacecraft heading
toward Earth from Saturn. Attempts to communicate with the large
ship go unanswered. The Soviets mobilize, and in the US a team of SF
writers is assembled to consider the possibility of the aliens being
a threat. An American Congressman joins Soviets in their orbiting
space station to greet the aliens. The aliens attack: they want to
colonize the Earth.

Main storylines: the SF writers advising the President; the
Congressman and other human prisoners in the alien spacecraft; the
aliens trying to figure out human behavior; battles.

SF elements: a reasonable amount of technology (one expects this
from Niven and Pournelle), very interesting aliens and alien
psychology.

Critique: the book's a long one (581 pages in paper), and there are
lots of characters (4 pages of "dramatis personae" at the start) --
too many characters in fact. I never identified closely with any of
them, and I had some difficulty keeping track of who's who. There
are a lot of coincidences in the book in terms of people meeting
other people they know; this happens in real life, of course, but I
think it was carried a little too far in this book. The story has a
slow beginning but picks up a lot of speed once the aliens start
shooting. I enjoyed the middle 80% of the book more than either end.
The conclusion is a bit forced, and there was one instance near the
end in which a main character went from being a stranger in the town
to being a leading citizen in just a few pages -- very contrived.
The idea of SF writers as technical or policy advisors is not a new
one; I don't fault the story for using this idea, but I would have
liked it better had the team made some mistakes: the never did.
Overall, however, I enjoyed the book and recommend it. I give it 3.0
stars out of 4.0.

For the net: do you like this format better than the previous way I
reviewed books? I welcome comments and suggestions.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: _Footfall_, Heinlein, and Tolkien

PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA writes:
>They never did say what year it happened in, anyway.

  _Footfall_ mostly takes place in approximately 1994.  Part of the
prologue is dated November 1980, the Voyager Saturn flyby, and later
in the book they refer to events in the prologue as having happened
almost fifteen years before.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 22:28:19 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

I realize that this is at a tangent, but I must take exception to
some of your statements about the bandwith of different ways of
communication:

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:

> The only possible way for a human to transmit large quantities of
>information is with the system we currently use when we need to
>transmit large quantities of information -- our neuromuscular
>control system.
>   Speech can be used to transmit a maximum of maybe 20-30
>bits/sec, tops.

Not true! I can speake approx 5 words/sec, closer to 20/30 BYTES/sec
not bits - I've never seen ayone type faster than normal speech.

>A typewriter-style keyboard maybe 50 bits/sec.  It would simply not
>be possible to control an automobile in a crisis situation with
>speech.  It might be possible with a keyboard and a lot of
>training.  But we do it *easily* with only a few simple analog
>devices!

If you had training in a specialized 'language' designed to control
a car, I think it would be possible - the average car has a steering
wheel, 3 pedals and a gear shift; 5 input devices. voice/keyboard
control would definitely be slower (sequential rather then parallel
input), but nevertheless possible.

>  The human neuromuscular control system can use a *single* analog
>device (e.g. a steering wheel) to transmit 100+ bits/sec

Why does a steering wheel need 100bit/sec ? It's usually static, as
are many (perhaps most?) analog control devices. I think 100bit/min
might be enough.

>And further our bodies operate in such a way that we can control
>many individual muscles in our body simultaneously and
>automatically.  Can you type one text while simultaneously speaking
>another?  I don't know what the total bandwidth of the human
>neuromuscular control system is, but it must be on the order of
>10000 bits/sec.

It seems to me that you're forgetting about the intented use for the
controlled device - the method of control is more dependent on that
than on achieving maximum bandwidth. For example, analog control is
perhaps better for interactive use (driving), and speech or text
control for non-interactive use (programming, navigation).

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 23:53:22 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick stirling) writes:
>>Speech can be used to transmit a maximum of maybe 20-30 bits/sec,
>>tops.
>
>Not true! I can speake approx 5 words/sec, closer to 20/30
>BYTES/sec not bits - I've never seen anyone type faster than normal
>speech.

   Not true!!
   (1) There is no way you can speak at a sustained rate of more
than 2-3 words/sec.  It is just impossible.  The world record for
high-speed speech is on the order of 5 words/sec, and this is for a
relatively short period.
   (2) The information rate of English is much less than your
estimate of 40 bits/word.  A more accurate estimate is 10 bits/word.
The vast majority of spoken words come from a relatively small
vocabulary; also successive word choices are not independent.
Remember that a simple LZ compression algorithm, with no knowledge
of English, can compress ASCII text 50% or so, so right away we are
down to 20-25 bits/word (3 bytes or so), and without *any* knowledge
of English.
   Another way of looking at this is that you may be able to speak
English at a rate of 2-3 words/sec, but there is no way you can
speak random text (say, using the digraph frequencies of English to
make it pronouncable) at anywhere near this speed.
   (3) A trained typist can certainly type faster than normal speech.

>>   It would simply not be possible to control an automobile in a
>>crisis situation with speech.  It might be possible with a
>>keyboard and a lot of training.  But we do it *easily* with only a
>>few simple analog devices!
>>   The human neuromuscular control system can use a *single*
>>analog device (e.g. a steering wheel) to transmit 100+ bits/sec
>
>If you had training in a specialized 'language' designed to control
>a car, I think it would be possible - the average car has a
>steering wheel, 3 pedals and a gear shift; 5 input devices.
>voice/keyboard control would definitely be slower (sequential
>rather then parallel input), but nevertheless possible.  Why does a
>steering wheel need 100bit/sec ? It's usually static, as are many
>(perhaps most?) analog control devices. I think 100bit/min might be
>enough.

   The point is that *usually* you don't need nearly this much
bandwidth.  But in an emergency situation you are going to have a
*lot* of trouble controlling the steering quickly and accurately
without a substantial bandwidth.  And you need to do lots of other
things at the same time -- pump the brakes, perhaps downshift, ....

>It seems to me that you're forgetting about the intented use for
>the controlled device - the method of control is more dependent on
>that than on achieving maximum bandwidth. For example, analog
>control is perhaps better for interactive use (driving), and speech
>or text control for non-interactive use (programming, navigation).

   Here *you* are making an assertion that speech/text has some
inherent advantage that makes up for its low bandwidth.  I see no
evidence for this.  Can you give any reason for your complete
rejection of the notion of analog computer interfaces?

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 00:02:23 GMT
From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman)
Subject: Re: Cyberspace

desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins) writes:
> You have to remember that everything is being analyzed and
> reinterpreted so that it can be sensibly interpreted by the human.
> No doubt this would involve eliminating a lot of essentially
> useless information.  But in any case it is certain that all of
> the massaging that is done on the data would be carefully designed
> with an eye on things like human response time and the rate at
> which humans can process information.

  I think this is getting to the real point. Any data about what's
going on in cyberspace has to be thinned by many orders of magnitude
to allow for the difference in processing speeds. A point made
earlier, that the cyberspace cowboys were specially trained
individuals, and that it was just that training which permitted them
to interpret the world beyond the decks, is probably the point on
which such a possibility must hinge. If you think that any human can
accomodate enough data to make cyberspace more than a (very) pretty
status monitor, then there is no problem. I'm obviously a little
uncomfortable with the notion, myself.

  I wonder if a simpler form of the problem has already been
encountered by the folks responsible for the control systems of
fighter planes. I noticed recently that the new version of the F-16
control system is being flown in tests. While the communications are
optical and not neural, I would guess that those head-up displays
can produce a lot of data in a hurry. Fighter pilots are intensively
trained toward what one hopes is peak performance. How much data can
they handle and usefully react to ? Anybody out there who knows
about such things (and can talk about it) ?

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
Astronomy Department
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 13:16 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Repopulating the Earth

To quote an old line, "It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it."

Considering Murphy's Law, wouldn't they have all kinds of problems?
What about the sheer volume?  Isn't is likely that something will
get bent out of shape or that Mom would have complications?  We
would hope that Dad knows something about Obstetrics and that is
isn't faint hearted.  Then we'll need some luck or other tools for
preventing infection.  I hope none of the kiddies is born
prematurely or else we'll need a compromised baby warmer (unless the
hospital is still standing and not full of dead plague victims).
Then there's the problem of feeding all those babies without the
help of Gerber.  Remember, food is necessary for Mom, Dad and all
the kids.  Mom has her hands full, that leaves Dad doing all the
real work (as it should be in any macho end of the world story) and
grubbing up food.  With a simple collapse of society due to the
sudden death of the populace there should be enough supplies to last
a few generations, particularly if the family is near a decent sized
city.

I haven't even addressed the problem of diapers, although there
probably will be a sufficient supply of pampers in the stores.  Add
to that the problem of diaper rash and Dad will be raiding every
store in the vicinity just to stock up by the time the grandkids
start rolling out.  Granted he should have help by then, but has he
had time to teach them much about the world as it was?  He and Mom
are the soul survivers of Mankind, they also have to serve as the
repositories of knowledge.  At minimum, every kid must be taught to
read and let loose with library (before being let loose with each
other).

Being a complete idiot, I feel that it would be possible, although
unlikely, to repopulate the world from just two people.  They would
have to be young, healthy, and very lucky.  They wouldn't have to be
very horny, since every nine months or so would be sufficient and
any more would detract from the other activities that are necessary
to support the whole project.

More interesting would be a story about the 10th or 100th generation
and their ideas for history and morality.  An orgy every month for
all the unpregnant ladies?  Is there a word for "not pregnant"?
Would they invent one?  What would their reaction to defective
children be?  How about sterile people?  Where would love fit in?

Needless to say, the whole thing would be a mess.  There are more
problems than just "can they?"

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 23:18:37 GMT
From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH
Subject: Population Growth & Mass Human Extermination

It had been discussed that if a large portion of either the male or
female population was wiped out, that the human race would be basic
exterminated as a whole.

Not Really. There are several factors to consider.  The first factor
is the male/female ratio of each particular region.  If 95% of the
women or men of a region are wiped out, granted the human population
as a whole is severly setback; but if a region has like twelve women
to each man in it; getting rid of 11 women will just make the
population growth factor real slow.  The other factors are
environment, technology, food supply, economy, and livelihood.  If a
region has sufficient natural food stuufs, few predatorial problems,
and a mild ecosystem, that region will slowly grow (re-populate).
Granted, the human level of technology/social structure will
suffer... but what the H*LL, mankind has wiped itself out, almost,
several times in the past 5000 years, but we always came back.

John Hardesty
jhardest@wheeler-emh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 86 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #171
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 29 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 171

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 86 01:25:02 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.arpa>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #152

Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA> writes:
>   2.  At the time of Ar-Pharazon the Golden, when the Numenoreans
>attempted to land on Aman the Blessed, the "Valar gave up their
>guardianship and called upon the One".  This implies first that
>Illuvitar was still the ultimate authority and overseer of Arda,
>since the Valar are only Guardians of the world; secondly, and more
>importantly, Illuvitar is the agent for the destruction of Numenor.
>It is not the Valar who cast it into the sea and reform the lands,
>but the One.  So at least once Illuvitar meddles fairly
>significantly in the affairs of Middle Earth after it has been
>created.

Very interesting.  I had always assumed that what was meant was
that, for that moment, the Valar laid down their Guardianship.  It
never occurred to me it might have become a permanent arrangement.
It seems it was traditional for the Dunedain, at least, to consider
that they could still be called upon.  Remember the battle in
Ithilien, when the Southrons' Mumak stampeded?  "'Ware! 'Ware!  The
Valar turn him aside!"  But perhaps it was just an expression.

Chris McMenomy continues:
>3.  There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR.  Gandalf
>says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant to find
>the Ring, and not by its maker".  He is clearly implying that
>Someone is helping the good guys.  It can't be the Valar, for they
>have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs of
>Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by
>persuasion and not by force.

Recall also Elrond's opening statement to all the strangers who had
gathered in his house for the Council: "...called, I say, though I
have not called you to me...", and his further admonition to believe
that their meeting was not by accident, rather, that they had been
chosen to decide the fate of the Ring, and none other.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 00:00:55 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>   About preservation: quite correct; it had slipped my mind.
>Which it shouldn't have, really, since it was perhaps the dearest
>to the Elves -- to be able to keep all that the loved about Middle
>Earth unstained forever.  Which of course they couldn't do, and
>that was one of their greatest sadnesses.

   Wonderfully worded, you have a true understanding of things
Elvish!

>My opinion is that it was Galadriel's own power, as the greatest
>Noldorin princess in Middle Earth and a kinswoman of Feanor
>himself, that was the basis of Lorien's defence, and that she used
>the Ring to amplify and broaden it.  I certainly agree, though,
>that it must have been Nenya which, amplifying the natural
>beneficial effect of the Elves on their surroundings, made Lorien
>seem a living, breathing corner of the Elder Days.
>
>Interesting.  I would have said that Elrond's wisdom was earned
>through his own experiences: the son of Earendil, and the brother
>of the first king of Numenor.  But, as Aragorn said, "that does not
>make what you say untrue", since Elrond was certainly a bearer of a
>Ring and, as he himself said, they were all at work.
>
>I think the arguments associating Narya with Gandalf's command of
>fire are astray.  In the Tale of Years (one of LotR's appendices),
>the chronology of the Third Age begins with an account of Cirdan's
>words to Gandalf when he yielded Narya.  I don't remember it all,
>but the most explicit part says that the Ring will help Gandalf
>raise flagging hearts, and I think that was the true aim of Narya:
>to build morale and cooperation, and keep grief from incapacitating
>people.  Remember, too, that all the Istari had their special
>skills, yet they didn't have Rings.  If any artefact was needed for
>their powers, it was their staffs.  Certainly Gandalf's did its
>fair share.

   You probably have a real insight here! I had forgotten that the
Rings of Power in general tended to enhance the native abilities of
their bearers rather than give them new powers. Thus Elrond who was
already wise in experience gained great wisdom indeed, and the
ability to use that wisdom effectively. And Galadriel, who loved
Middle Earth at its best, and desired above all to preserve its
beauty, and who had turned all her great Noldorin power to that end
found her Ring gave her the ability to accomplish that end, for a
little while at least.  And Gandalf, who was in fact Olorin - the
Maia of Inspiration and Morale - found his power in that area
enhanced tremendously. Certainly the healing of Theoden was
remarkable for its speed and completeness!

>>In that case Frodo's perception of Galadriel's Ring and her secret
>>desires was the first sign of the increase in the power of the One
>>Ring, since he managed to do so in *spite* of the power of
>>Galadriel and the supression of other powers!
>
>You seem very much to want to attribute everything to Rings!:) A
>major point of the scene at the Mirror of Galadriel, so it seemed
>to me, was that Frodo had matured considerably, gaining wisdom of
>his own.  And while he had gathered more about Galadriel than would
>most, I think if he actually had seen her hidden desires, he would
>never have taken the risk of offering her the One.  Let her be
>tested in some other way, not with the safety of all Middle Earth.
>But in fact, he was so impressed with her power, wisdom, and grace,
>that he believed the Ring could actually safely be given to her,
>that it would be safer than with him.

   Exactly what happened at the Mirror may well never be known, now
that Tolkien is dead. Certainly some very subtle and complex
interactions were going on there. Frodo's increased wisdom, his
increasing awareness of the One Ring and its powers, the impact of
seing the Red Eye, and perhaps other factors may well all be
involved.

>I must say, though, that Galadriel's own words seem to interpret
>things differently.  She seemed to believe he was testing her, a
>"gentle revenge" for her testing his resolve, and that he had
>indeed seen her thoughts.  I don't know what the answer is here.
>
>>And where did this power come from? I say it came from her Ring!
>
>And I say it was intrinsic to her as one of the greatest of the
>Noldor, though amplified and extended by the Ring.

   I would say we are both right! If the basic abilities involved
had not been hers to begin with, the Ring could not have helped her,
but on her own she would never have had the power to effect so large
a region steadily, nor so effectively.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 00:58:24 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: More Rings...

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>But is that [power of dominion] not effectively the same thing [as
>>moving the wearer to the wraiths' plane]?  To exert the power of
>
>I don't think they're the same thing, because one (the power to
>dominate) is the reason for which Sauron forged the Ring in the
>first place, whereas the other would be utterly useless to him.
>Why would Sauron make himself a ring to pull its wearer into the
>wraiths' plane?  He was there already, enormously so.  Dominion was
>what he wanted.  Personally, I suspect that the "wraithifying"
>effect occurred simply because the power Sauron had placed in the
>Ring was based in the wraith's plane, and tended to pull its
>wielder toward it.  I imagine the power in the Nine was calculated
>the same way.  (Why do you indicate the Seven had that effect?  I
>know of no

Which is STILL pretty much the same thing.  (I may NEVER learn to
speak English; the intent I really meant is that the two are so
tightly connected that one must accompany the other.  The
Wraith-world has power over the flesh-world.

The Seven -- it's only a theory; they are never explained.  But the
Seven and the Nine were created at about the same time and by the
same collaboration between Celebrimbor and Sauron.  So it's a
reasonable theory that they were intended to work the same way.
Which says a lot for Aule's work in creating the Dwarves...

>evidence to suggest it. ) Nor is there any reason to think that
>becoming a wraith would impart power.  Frodo would have gained
>none, had the Ringwraiths seized him; and Gandalf, most definitely
>not a wraith, had great power; so too, in a different way, had
>Aragorn.

Wraiths have the power of terror.  Admitted, Frodo's power was less
than any other in the dell under Weathertop at the time; but then,
it is a thing that must be learned to be wielded.

>>How do you ``know'' someone's mind without reading it?  Also
>>recall toward the end of RETURN OF THE KING where Gandalf,
>>Galadriel and Elrond stand around and mindchat at each other (``If
>>any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or
>>heard....  For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from
>>mind to mind...'').  And those were only the Three.
>
>Sorry, I was unclear.  I meant that the Ring would let you see the
>minds of those whom you dominated, which would presumably never
>include Sauron.  But while Frodo was painfully aware, through the
>Ring, of Sauron's presence and vigilance, he never saw Sauron's
>thoughts, or he would have found out much about the West -- he
>might even have learned that Gandalf was still alive.

Frodo wasn't powerful enough, as stated in the Mirror of Galadriel
part.

>I always thought that the "mindchat" was a native skill of three of
>the Wise involved, seldom used, but nevertheless available.  But on
>reflection, I'm sure that the Three would at least enhance their
>abilities.  Don't forget, though, that this is communications among
>willing parties, and not spying or invasion.

The Rings only make the communication possible.  Of course, it helps
if the participants are willing, and an unwilling-enough (and
powerful-enough mind, namely Galadriel's) can block even the One
Ring.  Remember that Galadriel and Elrond are Noldor, and never is
it mentioned that the Noldor have this ability.  Gandalf is another
matter...

>As you suggested, I reread the Mirror of Galadriel (thanks!)  Frodo
>asks why he, the Ringbearer, is not permitted to see the thoughts
>of the others, and Galadriel says he has not tried (and not to).
>She also says that she is aware of all of Sauron's mind that
>concerns the Elves.  But as I thought, no connection is made
>between what she can see and the One.

Given that she has said that the Rings confer the ability to know
the minds and thoughts of others to those with the requisite mental
stature, this seemed obvious.

>>I never said [Sauron] could PINPOINT [the Ring].  But he was
>>DEFINITELY aware that some great power was approaching his realm.
>
>I'm sorry, I still don't see this.  I recall nothing to indicate
>even such moderate awareness.  Think of the opportunities he
>missed: when the Nazgul turned and swept the Dead Marshes, over the
>hobbits' heads; when the Witch

Argument in my favor.  The Nazgul felt it, albeit dimly, and made a
sweep of the Marshes.  Not getting anything clearer, it left.

>King lead Mordor's first armies out of Minas Morgul, with the Ring
>itself lying right opposite him, across the valley; when Frodo was
>captured

But the King of Angmar FELT it.  Reread, please.  He felt it, again
dimly.  Frodo's weakness of mind undoubtedly saved him, as the Ring
had no powerful mind to draw upon to put out traceable power.

>and Sam was actually wearing the Ring in Mordor; when the Nazgul
>landed on

Ditto.  Sam, not having worn the Ring before, is even weaker
mentally than Frodo, which is the only thing that saved him.

>>No doubt when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, his suspicions
>>were allayed until too late.
>
>Excuse me, is this quite what you mean?  The very last that knowing
>of Aragorn would have done is allay suspicion.  Aragorn revealed
>himself to scare Sauron into attacking too hastily, with his power
>not quite fully developed, and to add to the number of distractions
>to keep Sauron's attention from Mordor.

I was unclear again.  Sauron felt a great power approaching Mordor,
but didn't know what power.  When Aragorn revealed himself, Sauron
became convinced that Aragorn was in fact the power, and that he
might even have the Ring.  So believing, and able to trace Aragorn,
he no longer worried about the unidentified power, since he'd
obviously identified it... and in the meantime, Frodo carried the
REAL power toward Orodruin.

>>It WAS mentioned a number of times, however, that Sauron and his
>>servants could feel the power of the Ring, and demonstrated that
>>they could not pinpoint it even up close (else Frodo would have
>>been caught immediately in Gorgoroth; the King of Angmar could
>>feel the Ring nearby but couldn't tell quite where).
>
>Quite true, but they had to be VERY close to feel it.  Sauron would
>have had the Nazgul in the Shire years before they actually were
>had he been able to feel it, rather then spending years in fear as
>his spies went everywhere they could trying to find word of it.
>"Unfinished Tails" tells of this in The Hunt for the Ring.

Which is what I've been trying to say.  Sauron could feel the Ring,
but bot its location to any extent.  Together these are necessary
and sufficient.

>>I interpreted [event at Amon Hen] as:Sauron felt the Ring and was
>>able to begin pinpointing its location, but Gandalf attracted his
>>location while telling Frodo to take the Ring off; when he did,
>>Sauron could no longer pinpoint it.
>
>"His attention", I think you mean :) My assumption is that, on that
>high

I noticed that after it was too late to edit it...  :-(

>seat, the Ring started calling, and the call is what Sauron felt,
>the distinction being that the Ring had to initiate the action;
>furthermore, once it had stopped, Sauron had nothing more to follow
>(thank God).

As I hinted above, the Ring needs to be worn to have any measurable
power.  This explains the scene quite well and fits ion with the
Ring's other capabilities, which require it to be worn.

>>The Ring is poweful but requires a mind in living circuit with it
>>to set its power loose (doesn't that sound familiar?  :-).  So
>>someone had to be wearing it before Sauron or the Nazgul could do
>>anything more than be aware that there was a lot of power
>>somewhere nearby.
>
>Though they might try to make the Ring more prominent by pressuring
>the bearer to put it on -- still just the Nazgul, though, not
>Sauron.  The contact with a mind certainly seems true, though
>perhaps not universally
> -- it seemed to arrange its own loss from Gollum, though he seldom
>wore it by that time

``Behind that there was someething else at work, beyond any design
of the Ring-maker.  I can put it no plainer than by saying that
Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker.''  This
may also have applied to its slipping away from Gollum; on the other
hand the Ring DOES have power when not worn, it just works more
slowly and subtly, as it has less power to use for its ``purposes''.

>and Frodo (obviously) never wore it in Gorgoroth, but its effect on
>him was still terrible.  There is a passage I wish I could remember
>accurately when Sam, about to throw away his pans, asks if Frodo
>can remember stewed rabbit in Ithilien.  Frodo answers that he
>cannot, though he knows it happened; that no sight or sound of
>grass, no breath of air, is left to him; that he is naked in the
>dark with only the wheel of fire.  A magnificent and terrifying
>passage.  I'll look it up when I get home.

See above.  It's a knife edge, the strange power of this Ring...

>>Of course, I may revise this in another reading.  I've been
>>through the books nine times and STILL I'm finding things...
>
>AMEN!!!  I think I make it more than ten times (I've lost count),
>and the discoveries haven't stopped yet.

Nine is just a guess.  I first read it when I was eight; who knows
how many times I've read it since then?  I'd read it more often but
it's too large!  BTW, this is my definition of a Good Book: it
continues to grow on the tenth reading, or the hundredth.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 86 1034-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #172
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 29 Jun 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 86 19:41:13 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The One Ring

>   . . .There is considerable evidence that the Elves had a hand in
>the making of the Seven and the Nine, and that they were *all* made
>*before* the One. Thus I would say:
>
>   0) The Elves begin to learn ring-lore, ...
>   1) Sauron hears of this and comes in fair guise ...
>   2) The Elves and Sauron together make a number of Ring of
>      Power,...
>   3) The Elves, ... make at least three more, on thier own, ...
>   4) Sauron retires to Mordor and makes the One Ring in Orodruin,
>   5) Sauron begins pass out the Rings of Power in his possession ...

I definitely misremembered the sequence of the creation of the
Rings.  Your revised sequence is a lot closer.  A minor point I
might debate is that it appears the idea of Rings originated with
"Annatar", proposed as a means of making Eriador as great as
Beleriand had been, and suggesting that Gil-Galad and Elrond would
not talk to him because they didn't rivals to the glories of their
lands.  It seems the idea of being able to build and preserve that
which they loved as sufficient bait for them.  But then, it doesn't
really matter with whom the idea started: it was a powerful lever
for Sauron against the Elves, and that's what matters.

Silmarillion states that when the Elves learned of Sauron's betrayal
and rejected him, in his anger at the failure of his scheme (the
hoped-for conquest of the all the Elven rings), he came in force and
demanded the Rings, saying they would never have been forged but for
him.  Though the Three were hidden, eventually he was able to seize
all the others.

Then, as you say, he took sixteen of them (the sixteen newest and
most potent, I assume), perverted them (which was relatively easy
because he'd had a hand in their making), and gave them out to the
seven houses of the Dwarves, and to Men.  The Silmarillion says he
gave nine to Men because they proved, in this as in other matters,
the readiest to his will (I'm not at all sure I like the sound of
that).

>   While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for
>them, I would not call them total failures. They are probably the
>reason for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the other
>races, and thier reputation for greed. Certainly much harm was done
>to Sauron's enemies because of them. Also, I would say that he was
>*completely* successful in "recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons
>were, in general, controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any
>of the Seven it was at Sauron's behest.

Whether from anybody else's viewpoint they were partially
successful, Sauron had intended them as "hooks", to enslave the
Dwarves, which they didn't do at all.  It was for this reason that
he wanted to recall all of them (I read this explicitly somewhere,
but I just can't remember where right now -- possibly one of LotR's
appendices).

The Rings may also have turned the Dwarves into actual rivals in at
least one thing: the gaining of mithril.  Both Dwarves and Sauron
loved it, and harboured it jealously.

As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, to
one degree or another.  They never had, for instance, the immediate
friendship that arose between Men and Elves.  Their languages and
customs were kept very much to themselves.  But it seems to me that,
in the case of the house of Durin at least, the Rings couldn't have
increased it that much, or the co-operation with the Elven smiths
and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never have occurred.  I can't
think offhand where they brought great harm to Sauron's enemies -- I
think they brought more harm to the Orcs -- remember the vicious war
over Moria.  Though it is true enough that the Dwarves became
greedier and more secretive, and certainly some of the consequences
of that were to Sauron's advantage.

Sauron was *not* completely successful in recalling the Seven: he
wanted them all back, not just out of the Dwarves' hands.  I read,
though I can't remember where, that he recovered three of them.  The
others were consumed by dragons, including the great Ancalagon the
Black.  And I do *not* think the dragons were controlled by Sauron,
though he would have been quick to take advantage of them, had the
situation arisen.  As far as I know they were free agents, utterly
selfish, serving no-one.  Sauron could hardly have been pleased at
the loss of four of the most powerful Rings, when they might still
have become great weapons in his hands.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 06:17:53 GMT
From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Rings...last comment (kinda long)

Hi folx...I don't want to beat this into the ground but I would like
to make a few comments on how the three Elven rings affected the
wearers.

Nenya - This was the one given to Galadriel to keep.  I view this
        ring as one which preserved and enhanced the beauty of the
        land around it.  It's also reflected in the beauty of
        Galadriel herself (coincidence??).

Vilya - This one was given to Elrond.  This one preserves wisdom and
        knowledge.  Was not Rivendell the Last Homely Home wherein
        much wisdom was stored...in all forms: song, prose, and
        personal experience.  This trait is also reflected in the
        character of Elrond (coincidence??)

Narya - This one was originally given to Cirdan who then passed it
        along to Gandalf when he realized that he would have much
        more need of it and could make better use of it.  This ring
        preserves and uplifts the spirits of those around it.  Ever
        notice how people are always sad to see him leave and how he
        always manages to make those around him feel better? Gandalf
        himself is very often described in words which conjure
        thoughts of flame and fire....(coincidence??)

Looked at as a group, you begin to wonder...

Now, the Istari tend to specialize in something right?  Saruman
tries to figure out the lost art of making the Great Rings.
Radagast studies nature and animals and Gandalf seems to have
studied fire and flame (He is a master when it comes to fireworks
anyway :-).

Elrond, being a Half-Elf, is of course long-lived and gathers much
knowledge and wisdom over the years and Galadriel is one of last of
the High Elves in Middle-Earth and one of the most beautiful (Arwen
comes first I think).

Now, while I don't think you can say that Gandalf's skill with fire,
Elrond's knowledge and wisdom, or Galadriel's beauty was a result of
their being holders of the Three Rings, I would like to suggest that
they were chosen in part for those very qualities and that the rings
enhanced them in the wearers. Would it not make sense to give a ring
which preserves beauty to one who is beautiful; one which preserves
wisdom to one who is wise; one which enflames passions to one who
deals in flame???

In Galadriel's case, she very likely has a "green thumb" and
obviously loves beautiful trees and such.  Being one of the mighty
left in Middle-Earth she is a natural to possess a ring which is
used to enhance and preserve beauty.

Elrond is wise and mighty and is likewise a fine choice for a
guardian.  He also has a stronghold far from Mordor.

Gandalf is a late comer to Middle-Earth and thus received his ring
from Cirdan.  Cirdan was initially a good choice I suppose because
they then had a ring in each of the major Elven homes: Rivendell,
Gray Havens, and Lorien.  When Gandalf came from the Valar to begin
his work, Cirdan immediately saw that he had a long and heavy
burden.  It was natural for him to pass on the ring, especially to
one who worked with fire (You might almost say it was ordained by
"SOMEONE" - And yes, I think it was a factor in his fight with the
Balrog).

Anyway, as I see it, the Three Rings were given to people who could
best make use of them.  They ENHANCED the natural abilities of the
wearers in certain areas and PRESERVED them in others.

(Whew! - Please, any flames by E-MAIL [if you feel strongly about
'em] )

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ont.  Canada
{utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 13:06:36 GMT
From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski)
Subject: Re: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth

From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
>In SFL Vol. 11, Issue 160, Christe McMenomy writes:
>>   3.  There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR.
>>Gandalf says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was meant
>>to find the Ring, and not by its maker".  He is clearly implying
>>that Someone is helping the good guys.  It can't be the Valar, for
>>they have laid down their guardianship and meddle in the affairs
>>of Middle Earth only through human agents like the Istari, by
>>persuasion and not by force.
>
>There certainly are hints of a guiding power.  I am convinced that
>it is the Vala Ulmo.  I think that it was through Ulmo's power that
>Bilbo found the ring.  Anyway, I do NOT think that the guiding
>force for good was Illuvatar.  Illuvatar created Arda in the first
>place to show Melkor and the Ainur who followed him the folly of
>their ways.  Aside from the one incident of Numenor, Illuvatar let
>the history of the Music of the Ainur run its course.

I DO think it was Iluvitar's design and NOT Ulmo or any Vala's power
that caused Bilbo to find The Ring. I have been reading The Lost
Tales and It is *quite* evident in those stories that Iluvitar with
the music of the Anuir and his own ideas set up the destinies of
Middle-Earth and all inhabitants. I think that the quote above
"...meant to find The Ring, and not by it's maker" supports this,
that from the very beginning of time it was Bilbo's destiny to find
The Ring. In Lost Tales one of the Vala (Manwe?) reminds the others
that all that happens is of Iluvitar's design, and all leads to the
greater beauty of his creations. I will try to find this quote
tonight and post it shortly.

Ron
ihnp4!bonnie!ron

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 13:27:16 GMT
From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski)
Subject: Re: Orcs

chris@maryland.UUCP (Lindor) writes:
>daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes:
>>As we all know, Elves are immortal, their lives being bound to
>>Middle-Earth and all that; so, *does the same apply to Orcs???*
>
>We certainly hope not!  Seriously, we have no evidence that Orcs
>are immortal---though on the other hand none of us here have seen
>an Orc dead of anything but violence, either.  For that matter, I
>myself have never seen an Orc at all---for which I am thankful.
>But unless Orcs have as low a birth rate as we do (and ours is in
>some measure voluntary), the world would be buried ten deep in
>orc-bodies, were they immortal.  Well perhaps not, but I imagine
>you get the idea.
>
>>And what happens to a dead Orc?  >Does it go to a special section
>of the Halls Of Nienor (sp?)  >and get reborn later on, like Elves
>do (I think)?
>
>I have yet to meet a reborn Elf.  Yet I have heard of mortals said
>to be born again---whatever that may mean.

Some clarification on immortality and the death of men: For elves,
they are immortal, meaning they can only die by being killed with
force or can die from overwhelming grief.  When they die, elves go
to the Halls of Mandos for some time, then are 'reborn' in their
children. Thus all elven 'spirits' walk Middle Earth until The Great
End.

As for men, their fate is not as final as one may think. When
'Mortals' die, their spirits go to the lands west of Valinor and
wander there in shadow until The Great End. So the spirits of men
also survive until the End of the world, but do not regain physical
representation and are confined, unlike the immortal elves.

Just what does happen to Orcs? I don't know. If they are corrupted
and deformed elves, perhaps they too are reborn in their children.
On the other hand, they may have been so badly deformed that their
spirits were alo effected, and they do not get reborn. In this case
what happens? Do they too like men wander the lands west of Valinor
until the great end? Do they go as spirits to serve Melko? Or do
they just 'die' and disappear forever? That wouldn't be consistent
with the death of all other races however.  Any explanations?

Ron

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 04:46:56 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Gryphon)
Subject: The One Ring

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what I meant in my
prevous posting regarding a second 'one' ring for Sauron.

The 'One' mentioned in the sencond stanza is the Ruling Ring, the
one that Frodo and Bilbo carry around.

The 'one' [notice small letter] from the first stanza is the other
ring, the ring that nobody mentions.

Anyway, this twist was just a thought, something to banter about.
It was not meant to start an argument, only a discussion.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 20:25:42 GMT
From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman)
Subject: Re: Rings AGAIN?!

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Celebrimbor was powerful, but not that much so, I think.  Remember
>that he was only and Elf; Sauron is a Maia.

Yes, but remember that Celebrimbor's grandfather, Feanor, was "only
an Elf", and yet he made the Silmarils and the Pilantiri, which
were, as Gandalf said, beyond the skill of Sauron to make.

Leonard Bottleman
tektronix!tekecs!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 09:55:05 GMT
From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: Moral Choice in LOTR

While the LOTR discussion is under way ...

It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters or
groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice between
Good and Evil.

The missing group is the Orcs.

Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil?
It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to
repent, or even to choose.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.co.uk>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu 26 Jun 86 06:56:14-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #165

     The claim that Sauron's repentance at the end of the First Age
was probably genuine is from Tolkien.  Either in The Silmarillion or
in Unfinished Tales, it discusses Sauron's being terrified by the
might of the Valar ("Mommie, I mean Morgoth, never told me there'd
be days like this...") and that if only to save his hide he wanted
to try being a good guy.  But when he was told he had to go back to
Valinor to be judged he fled, since he feared he'd get punished in
Valinor and have no escape.

     Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it quite clear that part of the nature
of evil is that it cannot understand good, which was one of the main
weapons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. had against Sauron.  They all knew
what Sauron was up to but Sauron had no way of understanding their
plans.

     I don't really like comparing Middle Earth with the Star Wars
universe (the former is much richer), but comparing Sauron with a
Darth Vader makes some sense.  Both were corrupted by a greater
force.  The main difference was that Sauron was the #1 bad guy for
millenia and had none of the motivating factors that turned Darth
back.

     So if Sauron's evil in the first millenium of the Second Age is
up for debate, the ring's is not.  Repeatedly, the ring is stated to
be totally evil and to exert a corrupting effect upon its bearer.
It would corrupt Sauron as well.  Sauron willingly made the ring and
wore it, with (we presume) full knowledge of its ultimate effect on
him.  But I still claim it's a mistake to compare the Sauron of the
Third Age with the Sauron of the first millenium of the Second Age
and say he was just as bad earlier as later.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 86 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #173
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:

           Books - Adams & Greeley & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   Herbert (3 msgs) & Repopulation Story &
                   The Orion Project,
           Television - Space: 1999,
           Miscellaneous - The Net and Space (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 08:20:53 GMT
From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: Inqueries about forthcoming releases

ilacqua@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Elizabeth Lear) writes:
> Interesting notes:
>   Adams' 'voice' is much like that of the Guide itself in the
>   books.  He is *very* tall - approx. 6'6" or 6'7".  He appears in
>   episode #2 of the BBC production.  (I realized this

He also has this annoying habit of sneaking into the perimeter of
his audience just before a guest spot.  When he spoke here back when
GB&TFATF first came out, everybody piled into one of the largest
lecture halls on campus, and spilled out into the hallways.  On both
floors.  And there was this tall gent, wearing the _same_ leather
jacket as appears on the back cover of the book (which, of course,
was in a lot of hands that night), looking bemused at all the people
straining to see an empty podium.  Needless to say, many spectators
were aghast when he strode out from among them.

During the giveaway of autographed copies, the question to answer
was "who was the last president of the galaxy before Zaphod
Beeblebrox?", which went unanswered for three minutes despite a
flurry of flipped pages (correct answer: Yooden Vranx (sp?)).

"I didn't remember that myself" - Douglas Adams

David Hsu  (301) 454-1433 -8798
Communication & Signal Processing Lab
Engineering Computer Facility
The University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
ARPA:hsu@eneevax.umd.edu
UUCP:[seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 13:59:47 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: The_God_Game by Andrew M. Greeley (mild spoiler)

With reference to Andrew Greeley writing something that is oddly
like SF -- Greeley has had a number of short stories in Amazing, all
mainstream (oxymoron alert) fantasy.  The one I read was pretty
good, and dealt with a sort of theological speculation: who ARE
these angels anyway.  As a side issue, what is it like to make love
with an angel?

Maybe he always wanted to write fantasy but avoided it until he had
mainstream sales to stay out of the ghetto?

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 06:24:00 GMT
From: uok!ricmtodd@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long

ami@ihnp1.UUCP writes:
>Is Lazarus Long in any book other than Methusaleh's Children and
>Time Enough for Love?  If he is in a short story, could someone
>tell me in what book it's in.  Please post the answer, don't mail
>it.

He's also in _The Number Of The Beast_ and _The Cat Who Walks
Through Walls_.  I don't know of any short stories he's in.

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokvax!uok!ricmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: _Footfall_, Heinlein, and Tolkien

QUINT@RED.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>>Lazarus Long cried like a baby the night his mother died
>>("Methuselah's Children") but told her later (eariler) that the
>>families had no record of her death (_Time Enough for Love_).
>>Heinlein must have noticed this error, because he fixed it in
>>_Number of the Beast_.
>
>I just recently reread the story, and as far as I can remember the
>only time LL cried was when Mary Sperling "died". She was a good
>friend, but not his mother.

   That _is_ the only time he cries during _Methuselah's Children_,
but the way Heinlein describes it draws a parallel to Lazarus'
memory of his mother's death, long years ago.  One of RAH's more
moving passages.
   Incidentally, I just reread _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_,
and noticed two things that intrigued me:

   1.  Shipstones.  Why didn't anyone mention their presence before,
when you were trying to convince me and others that RAH was drawing
the _Friday_ universe and the _Rolling Stones_ universe together in
this book?  I'm still not sure it's conclusive, but this is a
definite indication.
   2.  Nobody mentioned this earlier, either: Campbell's universe
(time line three, code "Neil Armstrong") is definitely identified in
various passages with that of Jubal Harshaw.  That is, however,
impossible--look up the description of the first landing on the moon
in _Stranger in a Strange Land_.
   I hope the actions RAH seems to be taking to resolve the
multiverse problem conclude soon; he's gotten to the point where
he's confusing himself!

pH

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 27 Jun 1986 12:50:59-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (MARY J. MAROTTA MRO1-2/L12
From: 467-4277)
Subject: Who likes Frank Herbert?

I would like to recommend Herbert's "The White Plague" to those of
you who are dissatisfied with other works of his.  I read several of
the Dune books, and concur that the first is his best in the series.
I'm not familiar with his other novels, but I was favorably
impressed with TWP.  Since this novel was mentioned recently in the
discussion about "how to kill off the people without destroying the
environment," I won't elaborate on the plot.  But the situation is
not commonly explored in the science fiction I have read, and so I
was interested in Herbert's ideas.  I was strongly affected by the
fact that this plague killed only women, and I was involved with the
women in the story, and their plight as the last chance for
humanity.  My main problem with the novel was the original
motivation of the scientist creating the plague, since his act of
revenge was so devastating.  I cannot believe that a man who loved
his family so much could subject millions of innocent men (and
women) to the hardship and suffering that the plague caused.  The
most interesting part of the novel was, of course, the search to
determine the cause of the plague and its antidote.  Reminded me of
"Andromeda Strain."

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 18:06:49 GMT
From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Herbert, Frank (Gosh, don't you read The Dosadi Experiment?)

Being extremely interested in the use and abuse of power, I found
this book an absolute joy. The power struggles, McKie's
apotheosis(?), all this and more.  I rate it with the Chronicles of
Thomas Covenant as my most favourite book.  (As you can tell, I'm
about to read it again... Skweeeeeek!)  On the other hand, I found
Dune to be interminably (sp?) boring dross, losing my interest even
before the third book. Oh, all right, incredibly well written boring
dross, but still so endless. I know I've just given you apoplexy,
but don't shout at me, I'm only the piano player.  Why does everyone
love Dune so much (...evocation of a whole alien culture...)  why do
my reference articles (forgot who posted the note saying the
godmakers and Dune were the only good ones.) slag off everything
else? (I'll let them off about Destination Void :-)) All this and
more in your next e-mail missive...

R. Ramsay

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 86 20:32:27 pdt
From: bradley thompson <thompson%arc.cdn%ubc.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Herbert character

Is there any justification for thinking that BuSab in Herbert's
*Whipping*Star* and *Dosida*Experiment* is some decendent of BuPsych
from *Under*Pressure* ?

merci

Brad Thompson

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 17:17:51 GMT
From: chabot@3d.dec.com (let imagination rise to power)
Subject: Re: Repopulating the Earth

It might not be a lot of fun.  Try _We_Who_Are_About_To_..._ by Russ
for a discussion about repopulating from a small base.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 86 20:32:27 pdt
From: bradley thompson <thompson%arc.cdn%ubc.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: orion project, references to in sf literature

In the 60's the US had a nuclear propulsion project called Orion.  I
am aware of two (2) references to this in books:
   1- The shuttle taking H. Floyd up to the space station in 2001
was called the Orion.
   2- The book *Orion*Shall*Rise* by P. Anderson had a similar orion
project in a post nuclear war type story line.

Anybody out there aware of any other references to Orion in sf
literature?

merci

brad thompson

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 86 04:13:00 GMT
From: xenixsp!doug@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: SPACE 1999 on tape!

Recently I joined a new tape rental place, and for joining at this
particular rental agency you get a free one night rental. Well as
usual I went looking for a SF tape that I hadn't seen before. :-)
And stumbled across a copy of what appeared to be an episode of
SPACE 1999 this tape was intitled however,
_SYLVIA_DANNINGS_ADVENTURE_MOVIES_SPACE:_1999
_THROUGH_THE_BLACK_SUN. needless to say it looked interesting
enough.  to warrant not seeing some other SF tape for the N+1'th
time. To make a long story short it was two episodes of the old
SPACE 1999 series, that someone had cleverly edited together, (I
don't recall the names of the individual episodes but I remember
them). The tape was well done considering the ages and low budget
that SPACE 1999 had to work under.  Except for at the very beginning
and very ending when the "narrator" Sylvia Dannings, a very swank
and underdressed female who's lines made her sound like she had the
intelligence of a housefly, spent the better part of 5 minutes
explaining how this movie was "far out" and that the black sun
"really sucked" while she toted a silver colored plastic-gun around
on a stage. This dragged on and on until out of desperation I hit
the fast forward on the VCR. Excepting for the "narrative" the two
episodes that were chosen were two of the better ones that I
remember from the first season of SPACE 1999. This is a good sign
that there might be more of the SPACE 1999 series showing up in the
stores soon. Hopefully without the narration.


USnail:   400 Atrium
          One Tandy Center
          Fort Worth, Tx, 76102.
MAbell:   (817)-390-3011 x4110
{ihnp4!sys1|hub|soma|rscus1|trsvax!techsup}!xenixsp!doug

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 23:27:37 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Net Power

> Just my two cents for this discussion; nobody has mentioned the
> 'electronic forum' for public discourse, through which Ender's
> siblings became public figures.  Sound familiar, anybody?  Does
> Card know the extent of current discussion coursing through the
> internet, or was he just guessing?  Granted, we don't have QUITE
> the readership of leading statesmen (do we?) as he used in the
> novel...anybody out here feel like a pioneer?

Well, cast your squinties on this...

   Subject: Shuttle messages taken to Senator Garn's office
   Date: Tue, 4-Mar-86 23:41:27 EST

      This afternoon, I had my first meeting with Mr. Jeff Bingham,
   Senator Garn's Administrative Assistant.  I took with me all of
   the messages that I have collected (to date) from net.space and
   net.columbia, as well as the messages that were sent to me
   directly via mail.  In addition, I brought the messages that have
   been collected on my two FIDONET nodes, and the messages that
   have been sent by other FIDO SYSOPS and FIDO users.  A little
   over 1,400 messages in all.

      Mr. Bingham was impressed (perhaps overwelmed is better word)
   with both the quantity and the quality of the material contained
   in these messages.  The discussions followed the types of
   questions that have been asked in Congress, as to the future and
   direction of the space program.  He was fascinated as to the
   mechanisms used to gather these messages.

      What is going to be done with the material?  Senator Garn's
   staff is going to be reviewing the messages.  Some of them are
   going to be included in the Congressional Record, others will be
   read in committee meetings.  Some may be provided in press
   releases, others will be sent to the survivers of the shuttle
   disaster and to the participants in the space program (both
   astronauts and engineers).  In addition, Senator Garn is going to
   have a response to all you us on both networks (FIDONET and
   USENET) who have been contributing messages.

      I will be meeting with Mr. Bingham and Senator Garn in 3 to 4
   weeks to further discuss how to best use these messages.  I will
   also be taking any further traffic that I receive, either via
   mail or culled from the newsgroups.  For once, we have a chance
   to influence the course of events outside of our peer group.
   Let's keep the discussions going, regarding the space program and
   it's future.  Keep the messages coming as well.

      The Dream IS still alive, and with our help, it will stay
   alive!

   Kurt Reisler
   ..!seismo!hadron!klr


Evelyn C. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 23:32:57 GMT
From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH
Subject: SPACE: A DIMINISHING FRONTIER

**PEOPLE OF THE NET LAND**

Are you aware that this country, with all its technological nad
scientific advances in the world, is considering to give up
exploring the last great frontiers - space.

Ever since the tragic shuttle disaster of January 28 1986, where we
lost seven brave explorers - astronauts - , this country is starting
to believe that we , mankind, don't belong in space.  Granted, there
are individuals who believe that we should mean it is just very
dangerous out there... send our machines...

If this country decides to take this position on space and space
exploration, then the lives of the seven astronaut have been wasted
futilely and the training and expenses, both personal and financial
have been for naught. Forty years of space research and exploration
snuffed out with the lives of the seven

We should tell our elected officials that we want to continue to
explore space with men and machines.  The human spirit is a curious
one.  If the first men had been as timid as the people want us to
be, we would still be living in caves, eating cold veldebeast.

You are probally wondering why this subject is brought up in this
net bulletin board.  We, each and every one of us, who read this
bulletin board have a secret desire to be the Gandalf, Retief,
Manual de La Paz, Lord Kalvan, Alois Hammer, Donal from our genre
because the characters project our spirit of curiosity and
adventure.  Prior to the advent of our genre, tale-spinners would
talk of Gilgamesh, Leif Erikson, Eric the Red, Columbus, Romulus and
Remus, Hercules, Jason, Arthur, Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, Hiawatha,
Alexander, Julius Caeser, Cleopatra, Genghis Kahn, Kublai Khan,
Marco Polo, and other characters of folklore and history too many to
mention.  People mention for either knowledge, power, or
adventure...  or maybe everything.  We are the generation that will
determine the future tale-spinners now.  Our collective curiousity
represents to me the thirst for adventure, power, knowledge.  Even
though we can not do what Manny, Milo, Alois, Cletus, Corwin, Frodo,
etc can do , although they are fictional, they represent our dream
of (pardon the phrase ) `vision quest`

Right now, this country is at the cross roads of space exploration
for the United States.  The faction that wants us to be cautious and
timid and not take chances are going to hurt us in the long run, but
they are the dreamers that should try.  Well enough rattling my
saber, let's hear some comment from the rest of you people.....
besides... I think I have heard enough of nitpicking JRRTolkien as
to who|etc...

For those who want to make a personal comment:

jhardest@ wheeler-emh  jhardest @ bbncct

are my mail addresses.  They both end up in the same mailbox
eventually. I wear flame retardant clothes anyway.

John Hardesty - A man with his eyes on tomorrow
BBN Pacific

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 86 0927-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #174
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Herbert & Lem & Macfarlane &
                   Spinrad & Williams & Title Request &
                   Recycling the Dead,
           Films - Films of Favorite Books & Aliens,
           Television - Space: 1999,
           Miscellaneous - Identifying with Characters &
                   Destroying Mankind (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 22:33:57 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

One gains a somewhat more sympathetic view of Anthony from the notes
to _With_a_Tangled_Skein_, the third volume in the _Incarnations_of
_Immortality_ series.  It is clear from reading that that he did
have a very hard life, and this makes his arrogance, while still
wrong, understandable and forgivable (at least for me).

I also think that a uniformly negative view of Anthony's writing is
unjustified.  He has a tendency to beat stories into the ground with
sequel after mind-deadening sequel; but the original stories are
often quite good.  In paricular, _On_a_Pale_Horse_, the first of the
_Incarnations_of _Immortality_, is excellent.
(_With_a_Tangled_Skein_ is poor to mediocre, however; the afterword
is interesting for those interested in Anthony the auther, but I
can't recommend the book.)  Many of the stories in _Anthonology_ are
fairly good; they suffer by comparison to and in the context of
Anthony's stated opinions of them.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 01:48:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank

"Under Pressure" was originally serialized in JWC's "Astounding
Science Fiction"; so it's a good bet that it was "Campbell vetted".

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 08:59:15 GMT
From: c3pe!glenn@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem

I too am a fan of Stanislaw Lem.  I read _The_Star_Diaries_ years
ago and it took me forever to find more of his work.  I've still not
read much, but in what I have read he's not let me down yet!

Translator's nightmare?  I've been wondering: HOW DID THE TRANSLATOR
(Michael Kandel in this case) MAKE ALL THOSE *PUNS* WORK IN _The_
_Futurological_Congress_??  I don't think puns generaly translate
very well.  Anyone with more language experience out there care to
comment?  I was impressed.

I saved a copy of your article, partly so I can extract the titles
you mentioned.

Still looking for more Lem,
D. Glenn Arthur Jr.

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 28 Jun 1986 02:34:43-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: W. Macfarlane

> From: ivanlan%ccvaxa@gswd-vms.ARPA (Ivan Van Laningham)
> Many, many years ago (well, 10 anyway) I had an SF pseudonym
> handbook.  I forget all the details, but I do recall W. Macfarlane
> being listed as a pseudonym.  I guess jayembee could come up with
> the particulars of the handbook, and possibly check my (possibly
> faulty) memory.

There have been a few sf pseudonym references; you're probably
referring to Barry McGhan's SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY PSEUDONYMS,
first issued in 1976, with a few revisions since. But, anyways, no
reference work that I know of lists Macfarlane as a pseudonym.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 28 Jun 1986 02:39:20-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Followup on 'Carcinoma Angels'

From: Hoffman.es@Xerox.COM      (Rodney Hoffman)
> If you enjoyed Norman Spinrad's "Carcinoma Angels" as much as I
> did, you will also enjoy what I view as his sort-of-sequel (in
> theme, at least), "No Direction Home".
> I don't know when or where it appeared, but I read it years ago in
> one of Terry Carr's 'Best SF of the Year' collections.

Well, it first appeared in NEW WORLDS QUARTERLY #2 (1971), and has
been reprinted in a few anthologies, as well as Spinrad's collection
of the same title.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 09:59:31 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL (*possible* spoiler)

From:   loral!dml       (Dave Lewis)
>   This is but the first book in what either Paul O. Williams or
> his publisher has termed the `Pelbar cycle'. So far there are
> seven books:

I've heard it from someone who spoke with Williams at a convention
that THE SWORD OF FORBEARANCE is definitely the last one he plans to
write (I suppose if he later comes up with an irresistable plotline,
he'll do another one). I can see this, since in that book...

Damn! I wouldn't consider the following a spoiler, but some might,
so beware the next paragraph if you haven't read the books.

                   ****** Possible spoiler ******

... the seeds for the re-unification of the continent have been sown.
The series has been moving towards this re-unification, as Jestak or
others bring more and more peoples into the Heart River Federation
as the series goes on. By the end of TSOF, there isn't really
anything further to add.

                ****** Possible spoiler over ******

>   All are very good despite the fact that Paul's characters tend
> to speak in short, choppy sentences, which gets slightly
> irritating after a while.  That hasn't stopped me from buying each
> of the seven as soon as it appeared on the bookstore shelf though.

Agreed. I too found myself buying and reading them almost
immediately, which doesn't happen all *that* often. Books usually go
into the stack to be read at my convenience.

My favorites in the Pelbar Cycle are the ones that result in a
rather significant change in one or more of the Urstadge societies:
THE BREAKING OF NORTHWALL (#1), THE DOME IN THE FOREST (#2), THE
FALL OF THE SHELL (#4), and THE SWORD OF FORBEARANCE (#7). THE ENDS
OF THE CIRCLE (#2) was my least favorite, as it seemed to be little
more than a travelogue to use up ideas that Williams wrote down in
his notebook and didn't get around to using in the first book.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Williams does next, now that the
Pelbar series is done with.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 02:43:00 GMT
From: chris@ico
Subject: Story Title Request

I'm posting this for a friend. If you recognize the story please
send me the title and I will pass it along.

The story is about this guy who is trying to find the answer to
immortality, but what happens is that he begins to slow down and the
slowing process keeps increasing until he's virtually immobilized,
except that he really isn't, it's just that it takes him *forever*
to move. The story is, I think, the manuscript that he wrote about
all this -- and it took him a looooong time to write it...he's still
sitting at the typewriter, his finger poised over the last
keystroke, and he'll be that way, to people moving at normal speed
anyway, forever.

Thanks In Advance

Chris Kostanick
hao!ico!chris
decvax!vortex!ism780!chris

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 09:27:59 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Recycling the Dead

From:   mmintl!franka   (Frank Adams)
> James B. VanBokkelen writes:
>> [...] the recycling of historic personalities.  When Farmer first
>> (?) did it in _Riverworld_
>
> Certainly not first.  R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates
> that, if nothing else.

Certainly not. PAST MASTER was first published in 1968. While TO
YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO and THE FABULOUS RIVERBOAT weren't
published until 1971, they are both patched together from material
published in WORLDS OF TOMORROW and IF from 1965-1967 (TFR also has
material from later issues of IF). And though it wasn't actually
published in its *original* form until a couple of years ago, Farmer
came up with his Riverworld back in the 50's.
        But long before Lafferty *or* Farmer, there was at least
John Kendrick Bangs' A HOUSE-BOAT ON THE STYX (1895) and THE PURSUIT
OF THE HOUSE-BOAT (1897). And long before *that* there was, of
course, Dante's DIVINE COMEDY.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 05:38:53 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes:
>What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books?
>(this could be interesting!)

Dragonflight comes to mind.  You'd need LucasFilm's best magic to do
it right though.  I always imagined James Earl Jones as the voice of
Mnementh.  Of course, I'd love to see The Final Reflection as well.
Now, who would you get to star in that one?  Maybe Martin Sheen???
Maybe Ben Kingsley.  I'd sure want Ridley Scott directing it.
Imagine Klin Zha Kinta, the game with live pieces, done well.
Imagine the battles, in full glory.

{dual,lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!samira!kahless

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 23:13:27 GMT
From: wdl1!jrb@caip.rutgers.edu (John R Blaker)
Subject: Re: Sequel to ALIEN - ALIENS

rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes:
> I read a little movie go'ers article about S. Weaver (I know I'd
> botch the first name spelling) making the sequel to "ALIEN",
> titled "ALIENS".  Ripley's story about the planet is not believed
> and she returns for some evidence with some help and high tech
> weapons.  Anyone heard any more details.  I doubt if a sequel can
> top the first...

It is not only being made, it's in the can and will be released in
the next few weeks.  Having re-watched the original last night on
video tape, it looks as if "The Company" knows a lot more about the
Alien(s) than they are letting on (as witness Ashe's orders to
"ensure the organism is brought back, all other priorities
suspended, crew expendable").  My understanding is that "The
Company" makes her go back.  You wouldn't get me within a parsec of
the place again, shares or no shares.

John R Blaker
UUCP:   ...!sun!wdl1!jrb (jrb@wdl1.uucp)
ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1.ARPA
and     blaker@FORD-WDL2.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 19:45:05 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Wanted: Space:1999

I am interested in obtaining good quality tapes of the 2 seasons of
Space:1999.  I definitely do NOT want the "splice 2 episodes
together to make an 80 minute movie out of 2 46 minute shows".

Hopefully, someone out in Net-land has copies that they consider of
good-enough quality to help me.

If you have copies, please mail me so that we can discuss this
in greater detail.

Thank you.

Jeff Okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
..!ucbvax!okamoto
Work Phone [8-5 PDT] (408) 447-6265

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 17:42:44 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (mild spoiler)

Duane (and others):

   I have noticed that a lot of people speak of "identifying with a
character" or similar phrases.

   Why is that necessary to enjoy the work?  Is it not possible to
take pleasure from the author's command of the language, of the
inventive and innovative uses of characterizations, of situations,
of technology?  Why is it considered necessary to "identify with" a
particular character?  I don't identify with any of Thomas Hardy's
characters, with any of Charles Dickens's, or even with Orson Scott
Card's and Harlan Ellison's, but I think in each case the author's
use of the language (etc., etc.) is what makes the work so worth
reading.

   And furthermore: I think your format for reviews is pretty good!

Best wishes,
Richard Bleiler

P.S. And, when reading and enjoying, what about simply appreciating
the well- told tale, the story that is well-plotted, internally
consistent, etc?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 21:50:44 GMT
From: bacall!iketani@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers follow)

Bill Davidson writes;
> I only partially agree with you. If the object of the invasion is
> to hold and use the planet, many weapons become useless. You don't
> burn the house down to get the mice out. In all our modern
> weapons, the only
...
> I'm open to suggestion, but I don't see any selective way to
> eliminate humans without wrecking things unless (a) you postulate
> a biological weapon of a completely unknown type, or (b) introduce
> some weapon with no basis in current practice or theory, such as
> the "brain wave damper" which was used in a few *really awful*
> stories...

   Well, actually, you do have a few options on removing the local
population from space.  How about building several hundred (or
thousand) large, orbiting, solar-powered masers that generate a
continuous microwave beam down into the local ecosystem?  (Assuming
they have a fairly high level of automatic manufacturing
capability.)  It's a simple matter to use an organized pattern that
insures total coverage of the surface (or even just the land surface
for efficiency's sake).  Assuming that they could control our access
to space, they could just spend a couple of decades irradiating us
until we all die of electromagnetic radiation related problems.
(The terrestrial microwave oven!)  Sure, some people could dig in
and survive, but the majority would die.  The survivors would be
centralized, concentrated, and just right for neutron bomb attack.
(or even zoo specimen gathering expeditions!)

   Or, how about using that ole zero gee manufacturing environment
and using an asteroid to build a large sunshield for the earth?  Say
50K miles in diameter, and then you put it in a powered solar orbit,
such that the earth is completely in its shadow.  A few years of
massively diminished sunlight and they could just come down to an
essentially sterile world.  If you're worried about the amount of
solar radiation being reflected back into space by all the snow,
then you just make sure that one side of the sunshield is reflective
and you can use it to alter the amount of total energy received!  If
the size of the shield bothers you, I'm sure that the same effect
could be provided by several thousand smaller shields in various
close orbits around the earth.  Just reduce the amount of solar
energy received and the problem is solved.

In short, there are a lot of ways to eliminate man once you enter
the realm of macro-engineering.  Let's just hope that none of them
ever happen.

d. todd Iketani
ARPANET: Iketani@usc-ecl
UUCP: {{decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax,hplabs,allegra,trwrb}
      !sdcrdcf!uscvax!iketani

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 22:11:19 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Population Growth & Mass Human Extermination

>mankind has wiped itself out, almost, several times in the past
>5000 years, but we always came back.

Not so.  The human race has not been at all close to extinction
since *very* early in our history.  And never have we almost wiped
*ourselves* out -- the dangers were predators, competition from
other species, and natural disasters, back when the species was
small and localized.

The danger of wiping ourselves out (with nuclear or biological
weapons) is a recent and unprecedented development.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 86 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #175
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 175

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 02:01:59 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth

From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
>>It can't be the Valar, for they have laid down their guardianship
>>and meddle in the affairs of Middle Earth only through human
>>agents like the Istari, by persuasion and not by force.
>
>The Valar never permanently laid down their Guardianship of Middle
>Earth.  When Ar-Pharazon sought to land on the shores of Aman, they
>temporarily laid their Guardianship down,

I always interpreted the statement that they "laid down their
guardianship" as referring to the guardianship *of Numenor*, not of
Middle Earth.  Whether this was temporary or permanent is moot,
since Numenor did not exist thereafter.

I don't think the Valar ever exercized "guardianship" over Middle
Earth at all, as they did over Numenor.  This does not mean that
they did not meddle there; I see no evidence for this latter view,
although certainly they were discrete about it.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 20:34:00 GMT
From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman)
Subject: Re: And again, rings (Greedy Dwarves)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the
>Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace
>Nauglamir.  But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril,
>stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of
>Doriath.  This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves.

Indeed, the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves began at the creation
of the Dwarves.  Illuvitar told Aule, after giving the Dwarves Aule
created wills of their own, that since Aule hid his creation from
Illuvitar, the children of Illuvitar and the Dwarves would always be
in conflict (no where near an exact quote, but pretty close).

Leonard Bottleman
tektronix!tekecs!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 86 20:52:10 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Who wrote the Lord of the Rings?

My question about the Lord of the Rings is: "Who wrote it?"  What
sort of question is THAT, you ask?  Well, I know that JRRT
translated LOTR, but who wrote which parts?  We are given that the
original authors were Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam, but who wrote what?

This question is made more difficult because JRRT took more than the
usual translator's liberties -- e.g., not only did he translate, but
he also translated the names, and at least once he introduced a pun
that could not have existed in the original.

Nevertheless, some definite statements of who wrote what can be
made.  Bilbo certainly wrote some of book one, and equally certainly
wrote nothing later.  Sam only wrote a few pages at the end.  Can we
do any better than this? Since there was so much input by the
translator, I doubt that modern textual analysis (word usage rates,
etc.) would be of any use.  However, style and tone seem to me to
offer significant clues.  There is a strong difference in tone and
pace between the first few chapters of book one and the rest of the
LOTR.  Indeed, people have told me that they were unable to "get
into" the book because it starts so slowly.  I feel that this
difference in pacing is indicative of who wrote which parts.  I feel
certain that the LOTR is Frodo's by the time of the Barrow Wights; I
am uncertain of where he began.  My own guess is that Bilbo wrote up
to the arrival at Crickhollow, and that Frodo wrote about everything
after the departure from Bombadil's, but I am unsure about the
intervening period. (I will give reasons in a later posting, if no
one posts superior ones.)

I don't suppose that anyone found some handwritten, red bound books
among Tolkien's papers after his death; barring that, is the answer
to the question known from any other source?  Even if it is not
known, what opinions are there on the subject?

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu
Usenet: {decvax,ihnp4,vax135}!cornell!lnsvax!cpf
Bitnet: cpf%lnsvax.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 20:54:59 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: Illuvatar's meddling in Middle Earth

Perhaps both Illuvatar and Ulmo meddled in the affairs of
Middle-Earth.  What I mean is that maybe Illuvatar was doing it
through Ulmo.  After all, isn't Ulmo Illuvatar's creation?

This is pure speculation.  Who can say for sure?

Steve Liu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 21:49:54 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

I think Ancalagon the Black was destroyed by Earendil, right before
the destruction of Beleriand by the war between the hosts of the
Valar and Morgoth.

Ancalagon, I don't think, was around by the time the Rings were
made.  He could not have devoured the Dwarf Ring.

Steve Liu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 12:48:32 GMT
From: crane@rivest.dec.com (Olorin I was in the West that is
From: forgotten...)
Subject: ...and yet more Rings...

> Other examples of Valar present in Middle Earth include Tom
> Bombadil (a Valar who has gone to ground).

This quote brings up an interesting question. Who was Bombadil? He
was called "the Eldest," having "walked Middle-Earth for ages before
the Elves awoke."

If he were literally the "Eldest," then his true name is Illuvatar.
This seems quite unlikely, especially in light of the discussion in
the Council of Elrond, in which is was said of Sauron's power,
"...but sooner or later the Lord of the Rings would learn of It's
hiding-place, and he would bend all of his power towards it. Could
that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not..."

Maybe Bombadil was simply the "Eldest in Middle-Earth," as opposed
to "The Eldest." So, he could be a Vala. Again, I think this
unlikely, on the grounds that all of the Valar (and Valier) were
named and numbered in the Silmarillion.

I think that Bombadil was one of the Maiar, the vast majority of
whom were unnamed; they were referred to as "helpers of the Valar"
in the Silmarillion.  This theory meshes well with Bombadil's
attributes.

Ron

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 15:27:55 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: _Footfall_, Heinlein, and Tolkien

hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP (Richard Hoffman) writes:
>[re: the verse of the Rings]
>Since the book doesn't seem to mention an `extra' ring for Sauron,
>I think it's easier to assume that Tolkien erred slightly in his
>arrangement of the verses, rather than assume that he erred largely
>in his ambiguous treatment of two `one' rings.

  I don't think he "erred" at all; the grouping of lines he used is
correct for the rhyme scheme.  The treatment of the One also seems
quite clear to me.
  Be careful when trying to second-guess authors, people, especially
when they are as competent and careful as JRRT was.  Please.

pH

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 86 08:42 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Valar vs. Maia

caip.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch) writes :

> If you refer to the Silmarilon, you will find out that Gandalf is
> a Valar,

If you read the Silmarillion, it states that Gandalf and the other
Wizards are Maia, which are lesser beings than Valar.

> Other examples of Valar present in Middle Earth include Tom
> Bombadil (a Valar who has gone to ground)

It also states that Tom Bombadil is a power unto himself, completely
separate from Valar and Maia.

> Perhaps an interesting question to the net would be whether Sauron
> is considered as to have originally been a Valar, or whether his
> start was as something much more powerful.  (My view is that he is
> originally a Valar, but due to the tremendous amount of worship
> has attained Godhood.)

Sauron was a Maia too.  Melkor/Morgoth was a Valar, and Sauron was
his "disciple".  Melkor was much more powerful than Sauron, and it
took the entire combined efforts of the Elves, Dwarves, and Men on a
scale that makes the events in LotR look like a picnic.

To clarify, Manwe, Ulmo, Elbereth, and Melkor/Morgoth are Valar;
Sauron, Gandalf, and the other Wizards, (and I think Luthien) are
Maia.  Tom Bombadil is something else, probably not created by
Illuvatar.

> I suppose it's time to reread the Silmarilon again...

I agree.  Me too.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum at HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 00:36:14 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Men and Sauron

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>Then, as you say, he took sixteen of them (the sixteen newest and
>most potent, I assume), perverted them (which was relatively easy
>because he'd had a hand in their making), and gave them out to the
>seven houses of the Dwarves, and to Men.  The Silmarillion says he
>gave nine to Men because they proved, in this as in other matters,
>the readiest to his will (I'm not at all sure I like the sound of
>that).

You have to understand Middle-earth history.  Specifically:

There were Three Kindreds: Elves, created by the Ainur (Valar);
Dwarves, created by Aule... and Men, creted by Iluvatar.  The times
of the advent of the first two were known by the Valar; the Elves
were shown the wonder of Valinor very soon after they awoke, and for
a time almost *all* the Elves lived in Valinor.

On the other hand, the time of the advent of Men was a secret known
only to Iluvatar.  And the power of the Valar was lesser in the
large portion of Middle-Earth, while that of Melkor was stronger.
So, when Men awoke, the Valar learned of it only after Melkor had
planted the seeds of trouble in them.  (For example: when the Elves
awoke, the night was beautiful with starlight and nature in all its
glory.  Man awoke to night also... night made fearful by Melkor and
his servants.  Men were also convinced by Melkor's emissaries that
the Valar were in fact horribly evil beings.

Makes you wish Melkor had been banished long before Men had arisen.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 19:30:52 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: And again, rings

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>While the Seven do not achieve all that Sauron had hoped for them,
>>I would not call them total failures. They are probably the reason
>>for the almost total estrangement of Dwarves from the other races,
>>and thier reputation for greed.
>
>This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the
>Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace
>Nauglamir.  But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the Silmaril,
>stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction of
>Doriath.  This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves.

   This certainly started the estrangement, but it was only a start.
The Elves of Hollin and the Dwarves of Moria had overcome this and
become close allies. And then there is the estrangement of Dwarves
from Men and Hobbits. I believe, though I cannot prove it, that if
it were not for the Seven these old grievences would have been
gradually forgotten and many of the differences patched up.

>>Also, I would say that he was *completely* successful in
>>"recalling" the Seven. Remember, dragons were, in general,
>>controlled by Sauron, so if dragons destroyed any of the Seven it
>>was at Sauron's behest.
>
>To which I respond with the argument used against my theory that
>the Balrog of Moria was in communication with Sauron.  Dragons were
>controlled by Melkor, before he was sent out of the world.  Sauron
>didn't pick up the load, just as he didn't pick up the load of
>controlling the Balrog.

   It may well be that during his period of disembodiment after the
fall of Numenor the Dragons became independent, and he may not have
fully re-established his dominion over them during the Watchful
Peace due to his need of secrecy, *but* that dominion was real. This
is made clear in the recently published accounts by Gandalf of *why*
he helped the Dwarves against Smaug. His comments make it *very*
clear that he anticipated Sauron using Smaug to totally devastate
the North.  His final comment is something to the effect that the
companions might have returned from victory in the south to
devastation and ruin in the north, and that there might have been no
Queen in Gondor! This clearly indicates that Sauron could in fact
control the Dragons.
   Sauron didn't gain dominion over the last remaining Balrog
because they were essentially *equal*, both being Maiar. Dragons,
however, were more like the Trolls and Orcs, that is they were real
biological beings *bred* by Morgoth, and thus subject to Sauron.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 22:30:51 GMT
From: wjvax!brett@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #90

wbp@cuuxb.UUCP (Walt Pesch) writes:
>If you refer to the Silmarilon, you will find out that Gandalf is a
>Valar, who is basically an agent of the Creator roughly equivalent
>to a Demi-god or an Angel ...
>
>Perhaps an interesting question to the net would be whether Sauron
>is considered as to have originally been a Valar, or whether his
>start was as something much more powerful.  (My view is that he is
>originally a Valar, but due to the tremendous amount of worship has
>attained Godhood.)

In fact, neither Gandalf nor Sauron were Vala.  They were Maia, a
lesser order.  The set of the Valar is known and specified in the
Silmarillion.  All others were Maia, including, presumably, Tom
Bombadil.  Sauron was Melkor's (a Vala himself) lieutenant.

Brett Galloway
{pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}
  !wjvax!brett

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 86 12:32:29 GMT
From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #90

wbp@cuuxb.UUCP (Walt Pesch) writes:
>I suppose it's time to reread the Silmarilon agian...

I think you had better. This discussion has been done to death in
the last few months and the following FACTS have been established:

   1. Gandalf is a Maiar
   2. Sauron is a Maiar
   3. Maia are of less power than the Valar (basically their helpers)
   4. Other Maia include the rest of the wizards and the balrog.
   5. Tom Bombadil is not Valar, Maia or any other classified
      group. Tolkein added him as an unknown, something from
      another mythology. Speculation about his true nature is
      therefore useless (see "the Tolkien Letters").

As to the "interesting" question. We know Sauron is a Maia, that he
was corrupted by Melkor, that he was a powerful Maia, that his power
(like Melkor's) diminished as time passed. He most certainly did NOT
attain Godhood!

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:       mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:           ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

P.S
Sorry that the tone of this article is sharp but I get fed up with
people posting misinformation to the net weeks and months after the
correct answer has been sorted out.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 19:22:21 GMT
From: ulowell!lkeber@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Valar vs. Maia

Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>To clarify, Manwe, Ulmo, Elbereth, and Melkor/Morgoth are Valar;
>Sauron, Gandalf, and the other Wizards, (and I think Luthien) are
>Maia.  Tom Bombadil is something else, probably not created by
>Illuvatar.

Luthien was the daughter of Thingol, a King of the Elves, and
Melian, who was a Maia.

Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jul 86 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #176
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anderson & Farmer & Heinlein & Lem &
                    Milne & Offutt & History in Books &
                    Book Request,
            Films - Films from Books & Bladerunner &
                    Labyrinth (2 msgs),
            Television - Star Trek,
            Miscellaneous - Depopulating Earth &
                    The Orion Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 00:49:47 GMT
From: chinet!megabyte@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark E. Sunderlin)
Subject: Poul Anderson's Time Patrol Stories

I have two books which are collections of Poul Anderson's Time
Patrol stories. They are:

"The Guardians of Time" TOR books 1982
"Time Patrolman" TOR 1983

Does anyone know of any other collections of his Time Patol stories?

Mark E. Sunderlin
Mail: IRS
      1111 Constitution Ave. NW
      Washington, DC 20224
UUCP: seismo!dolqci!irs3!scsnet!sunder
      ihnp4!chinet!megabyte
Phone:(202) 634-2529

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 12:40:52 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!singh@caip.rutgers.edu (Satnam Singh)
Subject: ===> Guide to Buying Humorous SF <===

Here is an easy guide to buying some humorous SF:

 (i) Get hold of six dollars: beg, steal, borrow- it does not
matter.

 (ii) Lauch yourself at the nearest deviant SF shop (or WH
Smiths/John Menzies type shops if you live in an uncultured area).

 (iii) Hack your way through the masses around the Jeffery Archer
and Mills and Boon books and head for the F section of the Science
Fiction books.

 (iv) Start looking for stems that have 'Alan Dean Foster' written
on them.

 (v) Reap out a book called 'Spellsinger'.

 (vi) Buy it.

 (vii) Read it.

After reading book one you'll be drooling for the other four. If you
don't think these books are humorous then please make an appointment
with your shrink.

Satnam Singh
Glasgow University

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 00:48:18 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Lazarus Long & Company

nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes:

>In TEFL, just before going back in time, LL is convinced to (to put
>it in polite language) father children to be carried by his
>"sisters", Lapus Lazuli and Lorelei Lee. In TNOTB, alot of stuff
>that happened after TEFL is explained by the characters, but no
>mention is ever made of the children they were going to have. Does
>anybody know what happened here?

Reread NOTB.  Laz-Lor state that they've taken antigeria a few
times; they were just come of age in TEFL.  So they had their kids
and they were already adult.  (What confuses me is that they'd
regenerated 3 or 4 times but were only 45.  Did they like being kids
THAT much?  On the other hand, that's a VERY dumb question...)

>Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the
>blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he became
>his own ancestor..." I haven't been able to figure out what in the
>story this referred to. Any ideas about this?

Already answered; there has yet to be a cover blurb that approaches
the truth.  Critics and cover-blurb writers share an inability to
read.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 86 13:57:00 GMT
From: polaris!herbie@caip.rutgers.edu (Herb Chong)
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem

gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) writes:
>I've also found that much of his work has the peculiar effect of
>leaving almost no memory trace in my mind.  Is it because of the
>language?  I certainly enjoy his work.  I've never noticed this
>before with any other author--not one that I've enjoyed this much,
>anyway.  Any psychology students want to give an opinion?

Have you read Solaris?  It's my favorite Lem book.  I was introduced
to Lem by a friend who read his books in Polish (i.e. imported from
Poland).  I, of course, waited until the English translations became
available :-).

Herb Chong, IBM Research...
VNET,BITNET,NETNORTH,EARN: HERBIE AT YKTVMH
UUCP:  {allegra|cbosgd|cmcl2|decvax|ihnp4|seismo}
       !philabs!polaris!herbie
CSNET: herbie%ibm.com@csnet-relay
ARPA:  herbie@ibm.com, herbie%yktvmh.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 17:50:56 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: Wells..a great or not?

Actually, Mark, so far as harbingers of ideas go, Robert Duncan
Milne was probably the greatest idea man in the history of s-f.  A
great writer he was not, though.

Richard Bleiler.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 86 16:22:28 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: _Analog_ Questions

From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Russel Dalenberg
>The story "Rails Across the Galaxy" by Andrew Offutt & Richard Lyon
>was serialized in _Analog_ from Aug. to Mid-Sept. 1982.  as far as
>I know, "Rails..."  was never issued in book form.  I put off
>reading it for a long time because I expected a book version to
>come out. If no such publication is intended, I'll dig out my
>magazines.

Whatchabinwaitinfor????  I haven't ever seen it in the bookstore
either, which is why I periodically dig it out to reread.  I don't
know why I didn't think of this one for the "funny SF".  Even more
importantly, it is a *very* good read.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 01:49:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
>I was recently reading one of the "heros in hell" stories, and felt
>a considerable flash of annoyance over the recycling of historic
>personalities.  First, it only rarely conveys any particularly
>useful historical information;

  I would agree that the author should strive to get his history
'right' (just as he should try to get his science right), but do not
see that he is under any requirement to convey "particularly useful
historical information."  THAT is the purpose of non-fiction,
biography and history, not of fiction.

>Second, I feel it encourages a sort of lazy plagiarism among
>authors.  "Hmmm, let's see, I need a swashbuckling adventurer here,
>where's the _Biographical Dictionary_..."  I *don't* want the
>author depending on my having heard of Julius Caesar so that he can
>assume I'll extrapolate what I know into a complete character.
>
>Third, I feel that it can be somewhat insulting to the memory of
>the historical personage so plagiarized - let their own works, and
>those of their contemporaries illustrate their nature, not the SF
>author's frequently unimaginative projection of their responses to
>contrived situations.

  I think that arguments two and three would apply equally to the
serious historical novel -- or any serious work of fiction set in
the author's historical past, eg. _War_and_Peace_,
_A_Tale_Of_Two_Cities -- the list is nearly endless.  Such things
can be done well and they can be done poorly and nearly every shade
in between.  Let us not tar all (possible) such stories with the
same brush.
  To do this sort of story well is a difficult task.  I think Farmer
very nearly brings it off.  I have not read the "Heroes" books yet;
so, I cannot speak for them.

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 20:11:48 GMT
From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: Book query: _Green Eyes_ (?)

There was a Berkely Fiction book that had, as a premise, the
resurrection people.  The live dead had glowing green eyes, which is
why I thought that that was the title; but I could be wrong.

The resurrected people had tremendous powers of thought, creativity
and psi abilities, I think.  The story haunts me with the simple
picture of three of guys that had been brought back escaping in a
truck with a woman all accompanied by a sense of brooding power and
despair.  While the names escape my memory, I remember that the
characters were powerfully drawn, and all the accompanying problems
and terrors to a process for resurrection were convincingly
presented.

However, I have lost my copy of the book, and don't remember what
the title or the author were.  Help!

Liralen Li
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 23:13:56 GMT
From: frog!wjr@caip.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes:
>What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books?

My dream-film (or would it be a miniseries?) is _Dhalgren_, with

Dustin Hoffman          as      the Kidd
Michael Fox                     Denny
Meryl Streep                    Lanya
Jack Nicholson                  Tak Loufer
Aretha Franklin                 Madame Brown
Joan Rivers                     Mrs. Richards
and Tina Turner                 Dragon Lady

Of course, ILM would be involved, and I don't expect ever to see it.
But if you have more casting ideas, send me email.

Stella Calvert
Guest on Account: {cybvax0!mit-eddie!decvax}!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 10:12:19 EDT
From: Andrea Rice <arice@cch.bbn.com>
Subject: bladerunner theme

I believe bladerunner music you are looking for is on a Brian Eno
albulm called Music for Movies (or something like that).

Andrea

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 13:32:37 GMT
From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: Labyrinth (non-spoiler)

There have been so many fantasy movies released in the last few
years -- and most have left me unsatisfied.  Many had wonderful
special effects and sets, but truly dreadful plots and scriptwriting
(Legend, The Sword and the Sorceror); some had atrocious acting
(Beastmaster); two came close to being great movies, but had
five-minute climaxes which the director had chosen to stretch to
twenty (The Dark Crystal, Ladyhawke.)  Candidly, I'd just about
given up hope.

Then I saw "Labyrinth".

Labyrinth, finally, has it all.  Competent special effects (with one
exception which I'll get to), competent acting, remarkable sets, and
a superior script.  Furthermore, it's funny.  What's unusual in a
film targeted at children, it actually looks *suitable* for
children.  There aren't any horrific beasts, murdered parents, or
cannibals.  The plot is adventurous, but not terrifying.  I went to
the 3 P.M. matinee and was surrounded by children; none of them let
out a peep during the entire movie.  This means that, at least, they
weren't bored -- and neither was I.

David Bowie is very good as the Goblin King; a young actress whose
name I didn't catch carries off the "noble maiden" character without
cloying; and the Muppets are more lifelike than usual.  (There's one
scene where Henson slips; a group of ?marionette? monsters sing a
song in the usual Muppetty voices, and they're all-too-visibly
haloed against the background.)  (I am aware that the monsters
aren't technically "Muppets"; however, they are recognizably
Hensonian (Ozian?) in movement and body-shape.)

The movie is full of wonderful throwaway details -- for instance, if
you look carefully at the doorstep of the Goblin King's castle,
you'll notice the milk-bottles on the stoop!  There is a magnificent
masquerade ball which any romantic would give his/her eye teeth to
attend.  The various hazards along the heroine's path are often
imaginative and always visually compelling.  And at Quest's End she
reaches a room straight out of an M.C. Escher print.  Awesome.

The plot?  Well, if you've read Maurice Sendak's "Outside Over
There", you've got the general idea.  In the closing credits, Henson
"acknowleges his indebtedness to the works of Maurice Sendak."  I
hope the acknowledgement was financial.

I'd give "Labyrinth" a solid 4 out of 4; the Escher room alone is
worth the price of admission, but it isn't all you have to look
forward to.

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 08:21 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Labyrinth

Just caught this Henson Associates/Lucasfilm coproduction this past
weekend.  Comments: if you're over fourteen and can't make yourself
think like someone under, then you may not have a good time.  This
is definitely kid stuff.  Labyrinth is the movie that Henson should
have made instead of Dark Crystal, with all of the humor and general
whimsey that made the Muppets so unforgettable.  David Bowie as the
Goblin King is perfectly cast.  And, with the exception of a
fireside dance number that was clearly done with Chromakey or some
equally sloppy-looking process, everything here is technically VERY
well done.  The fourteen- year-old in me would give it an eight on a
ten scale.  The adult (where did HE come from?) would call it a six
and a half or seven.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 08:14 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Missing Star Trek episodes
Cc: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)

I remember hearing that "Miri" (the episode with the children who
don't age, but catch a horrible disease when they enter adolescence
-- a disease which our fearless landing party get immediately.)
wasn't shown in England -- bad influence on the children.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:20 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Depopulation

In the discussion about having most of one sex wiped out by whatever
means, I would like to add my $0.02 worth in.

1) The only problem with having 99% of the males wiped out is that
the gene pool is damaged.  Those 20 million+ guys would be kept busy
servicing the 1 billion+ women (approximately half either
post-menopausal, prepubescent, or otherwise infertile).  The excess
females would take over most roles in society, including protecting
the centimated (as opposed to decimated) males.  Society would
change but probably not fall.  Probably some of the pre-conception
methods of increasing the likelihood of male children would be used,
such as acid or alkaline diet (I forget which), timing of
intercourse in relation to ovulation, etc.  so as to build that
population quickly.  You wouldn't want all male children, but maybe
80-95% for awhile.  In fact, if one round of births was 95% male,
the long-term problems would be over.  (Of course, having 1 billion
male teen-agers in 15 years would be rather traumatic.  :-)

2) The reverse is much more serious, as has been discussed before.
But again, there would be enough people to fill the roles in society
to prevent its collapse.  The recovery would be much slower.
Methods of male pregnancy would help a lot.  (See Omni about 6
months ago.)  Having each pregnancy by a different man would help
keep the male gene pool intact.

3) If the ratio is much smaller than 1 percent, the problems are
increasingly greater.  In the worst case, say only a few hundred
women survive, the inbreeding problems are nearly insurmountable.
Perhaps genetic manipulation could be used to change genes around
would help.  Cells from the dead women could be cultured for their
genetic content if it was done quickly.  This only really works if
civilization doesn't fall.  Without genetic engineering, it won't
work very well.

4) The "Adam and Eve" scenario is very doubtful in a primitive
setting.  Just too little genetic diversity.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 01:07:03 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Orion propulsive devices

>In the 60's the US had a nuclear propulsion project called Orion. I
>am aware of two (2) references to this in books: anybody out there
>aware of any other references to orion in sf literature?

It's used in Niven & Pournelle's FOOTFALL.  To say more would be a
spoiler.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 86 0747-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #177
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:

              Books - Ford & Heinlein & Lem (3 msgs) &
                      Spider Robinson & Stapledon,
              Films - Films of Favorite Books (2 msgs)
              Miscellaneous - Japanese & Repopulation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 86 22:08:29 GMT
From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: John M. Ford

> Being a John Ford fan, I thought I'd elaborate on the 4 books he's
> published under his real name.
>
> Princes of Air and Darkness
> Web of Angels
> The Final Reflection  (a Star Trek book)
> The Dragon Waiting

Wasn't that PRINCES OF THE AIR?  I'm told that it will be re-issued
soon, by the way.  I agree with everything you say.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 01:01:47 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Heinlein vs. his story lines

ph@wucec2.UUCP writes:
>2.  Nobody mentioned this earlier, either: Campbell's universe
>(time line three, code "Neil Armstrong") is definitely identified
>in various passages with that of Jubal Harshaw.  That is, however,
>impossible--look up the description of the first landing on the
>moon in _Stranger in a Strange Land_.  I hope the actions RAH seems
>to be taking to resolve the multiverse problem conclude soon; he's
>gotten to the point where he's confusing himself!

``A parallel space, with so small a difference as the lack of one
unnecessary letter... seems to imply a father and daughter named
`Iacob' and `Deiah Thoris.' '' --from THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST

Heinlein probably doesn't care; any differences can be attributed to
being slightly different timelines.  (I am fast losing faith in
him...)

NOTB and THE QUANTUM CATS have decided me that alternate-universe
stories of that sort are impossible to write.  Short stories?
Maybe.  One of Niven's ``Stotz'' stories (from THE FLIGHT OF THE
HORSE), and one of Spider's stories.  I've given up on seeing
anything reasonable in this area; it's just too Witness-forgotten
complex to be written about by humans.

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 30 June 1986, 14:25:55 EDT
From: RICHARD P KING <RPK@IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem

I have been a fan of Lem since I first read his work, starting with
_The Cyberiad_, which was 10 years ago.  His plots can be weak, and
his translators' prose are often poor, but he is always exploring
significant concepts, and is, when he wishes, quite hilarious.

My reading of his work will not be complete until his non-fiction
work on cybernetics and on the philosophy of science are available
in English translation, but I HAVE read the following:
  The Chain of Chance, explores the relationship between statistical
    correlation and causality, in the guise of a detective novel
  The Cyberiad, a collection of stories involving 2 master robot
    constructors
  Further Memoirs of a Space Traveler, more stories about Ijon Tichy
  The Futurological Congress, goings-on at a convention of
    futurologists
  His Master's Voice, a secret government project is formed to
    decipher what may be a transmission from intelligent alien life
  Imaginary Magnitude, a collection of introductions to non-existent
    books
  The Investigation, similar in concept to _The Chain of Chance_
  The Invincible, a spaceship is sent to investigate the
    disappearance of an earlier ship sent to a previously unexplored
    planet
  Memoirs Found in a Bathtub, madness reigns in the Rocky Mountain
    Pentagon in a time after the destruction of society by a
    bacterium which breaks down paper
  More Tales of Pirx the Pilot, just so
  Mortal Engines, various stories about robots
  A Perfect Vacuum, book reviews of non-existent books
  Return from the Stars, a group of space travelers returns to earth
    to find it altered almost beyond comprehension
  Solaris, which is a planet mostly covered by an ocean, and which
    may be alive, even intelligent
  The Star Diaries, about the travels of Ijon Tichy
  Tales of Pirx the Pilot, the education of a rocket pilot

This leaves _Microworlds_, about which I only know the title, to be
read.

I do not recommend _The Chain of Chance_.  It was very similar to
_The Investigation_, and even that one I don't really recommend.
All of the story collections have their weak moments, but I
recommend them all anyway.  _The Futurological Congress_ is
fabulous.  And, although he makes them look too bizarre for words,
the futurological techniques he discusses are genuine, even
morphological analysis.  _His Master's Voice_ was rather dull.  The
prose in _The Invincible_ are atrocious.  But what do you expect?
It was translated from Polish into German.  Then the German
translation was translated into English!  However, the cybernetic
concepts explored are quite intriguing.  _Memoirs Found in a
Bathtub_ itself is unpleasant reading, but the introduction is
marvelous.  _Return from the Stars_ moves fairly slowly; I can't
quite recommend it.  However, there is one scene which I still think
back on 6 years later.  _Solaris_ suffered a fate similar to that of
_The Invincible_, but in this case it was Polish to French to
English.  It is rather heavy, with long discourses on the nature of
consciousness and the limits of human understanding.  I recommend it
for the quality and depth of his philosophical exploration, but it
is not an "easy read".

Michael Kandel is the best of the translators.  His work on _The
Cyberiad_ is spectacular.  He has the ability to take poems, rhymes,
jokes, and alliterative word play written in Polish and transform
them into English poems, etc., which scan, rhyme, are funny, and
provide the necessary alliteration, respectively.

The other translators were unimpressive.  The worst were those who
performed the 2 hop translations.  I continue to harbour ill will
toward those translators and their publishers.

I think the variation in style that he shows can be explained by
number of factors.  First, there are the many translators.  I think
the works translated by Kandel read better, and more consistently,
than the others.  Then there is his educational background.  He is
extremely well read, trained as a physician, and a founder of the
Polish cybernetic society.  I would expect a man with so broad a
range of interests to show a substantial range of variation in his
work.  In fact, I think his work is usually either some kind of romp
or a fairly serious exploration of some issue in the philosophy of
science.  The romps usually feature a somewhat pugnacious gad-about
like Trurl or Ijon Tichy.  The more serious works usually center
around a not quite brilliant man who plods through some baffling
mystery, continually confused, upset, filled with self-doubt.  Very
Eastern European, I think.

To wrap this up I will leave you with a little research problem.  In
which of his stories does Lem himself appear?  By this I mean that
in, for example, "The Mask" there appears a monk who happens to be
both a physician and a cybernetician.  This character I take to be
Lem.  Are there other such appearances?  I think so, but I don't
recall.

Richard.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 17:43:40 GMT
From: rtgvax!ramin@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem

gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) writes:
> Are there any other Stanislaw Lem fans out there?
> He's my second favorite author--my favorite in Science Fiction.

Right in there... I would also recommend "WE" by Yevgeny Zamyatin.

> No two of his books seem to have the same translator--maybe after
> translating one of his books, the translators change careers. :-)

All the ones that I have are translated from Polish by Michael
Kandel (they're the paperback ones, I'm pretty sure by Harcourt
Brace & Jovanovich).

> Are there any other collections of his short stories kicking about
> (besides _The Cyberiad_ (very funny), _The Star Diaries_ (the
> language is amazing, pity the translators), the stories of Ijon
> Tichy, the two about Pirx ("The Washing Machine Tragedy" is the
> funniest short story of any genre I've ever read) and _Imaginary
> Magnitude_ (not really stories, but still entertaining)?  I know
> some of his short stories have been translated for _The New
> Yorker_; have they all been collected into these volumes?

The list in the front of a recent reprint of "The Cyberiad" lists
HBJ editions of:

   The Chain of Chance
   The Cyberiad: Fables for the Cybernetic Age
   His Master's Voice
   Memoirs of a Space Traveller: Further Reminiscences of Ijon Tichy
   More Tales of Pirx the Pilot
   A Perfect Vacuum
   The Star Diaries

(I also saw the last copy of what looked like "The Immortal Engines"
walk out of a bookstore once...(:-)

ramin firoozye
USps: Systems Control Inc.
      1801 Page Mill Road
      Palo Alto, CA  94303
(415) 494-1165 x-1777
uucp: {shasta|lll-lcc|ihnp4}!ramin@rtgvax

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 20:08:47 GMT
From: dartvax!tedi@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward M. Ives)
Subject: Re: Stanislaw Lem

I am another Lem fan-as far as I am concerned, most everything he
writes is gold.  "The Investigation" is a book no one has mentioned
yet; it is not typical Lem.  It is a really weird story of a
Scotland Yard Inspector looking into some cases of what appears to
be resurrections.  WEIRD.  One book by Lem I have never been able to
find is SOLARIS (yes, the original novel of the Russian film of the
same name-the Russian film director filmed the book).  I just can't
find it...Other than that, I recommend everything you can get your
hands on by Lem.  Except maybe "Return from the Stars" which is kind
of boring, plotless, and devoid of Lem's awesome puns.

Ted Ives
tedi@dartvax.CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 09:48:33 -0800
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: re: How Spider Robinson ruined Callahan's Place for me ...

Hi folks.
   I've been getting real disenchanted with Spider for some time
now.  Night of Power was unsatisfying, to say the least, and the
last two stories from Callahan's Secret are crap.  There was a time
when Callahan's Place my favorite place to go, but lately it's been
getting a bit like an OD on saccharine.
   A previous note to SF-LOVERS mentioned pop psychology making the
stories hard to read.  This is a definite problem for those of us
with training in the field.  I read The Mick of Time when it came
out in Analog a while back, and kept saying to myself "Yah, right.".
   I really wish I knew what Spider thinks he is doing to his
writing.  His early stuff, like Telempath or The Time Traveler (
father What's His Name's story ), was really good.  It's gone down
hill pretty badly.
   I especially dislike the way in which Jake's guilty conscience
was taken off the hook just like magic.  Damn it, Jake was a
realistic and interesting character up until Spider waved his magic
wand.
   Does anybody else notice the similarities between Stardance and A
Chorus Line ?  I thought it was only me.

Dave Godwin

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 14:20:46 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Wells..a great or not?

Another 'early' innovative SF author who isn't mentioned frequently
in this group is Olaf Stapledon. "Sirius" is an early story about a
nonhuman animal being genetically engineered for human-level
intelligence, and "Odd John" is an early story about a human with
superhuman intelligence.  "Last And First Men" and "Starmaker" also
investigated new territory.  Most of his stuff is available through
Dover Books.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:19 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: SF movies you'd like to see

The Stainless Steel Rat books would be marvelous in film.  How about
Sting for Jim deGriz?  (Harrison Ford would probably be better.)
And

I've always thought The Mote in God's Eye would make a wonderful
movie.  (I would hardly call it schlock though.)  I think the
present level of special effects makeup is sufficient to handle
Moties.

Right now, I'm in the middle of a book that would be great on the
screen.  West of Eden by Harry Harrison.  I strongly recommend it
for reading too.

Since Star Trek IV is the last ST movie with Kirk, Spock, etc.  in
it, (at least as far as I've heard), how about The Final Reflection
by John Ford?

I'd like to see a generation ship story like Orphans of the Sky as a
movie.  Or, while on Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Space Viking by Piper, Gateway by Pohl, The Warlock Inspite of
Himself by Stasheff, The Amber series perhaps?  This would have to
be multiple movies, but that's OK.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 18:13:29 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark )
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

   What I would really like to see (most preferably done in Japanese
animation) is a movie version of Barry Hughart's (spelling for me is
always an adventure, forgive me if that name is wrong)
_Bridge_of_Birds.  I don't think that it could be done as a live
action movie though, and lord knows the Western Hemisphere isn't
doing too well in the field of animation these days.  Oh Walt,
whatever happened to your dream?

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:18 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Cybernetic Samurai

After having returned this month from my honeymoon to Japan and the
Orient, I concur with Charlie Martin's comments concerning Chinese
culture in Japan.  Adaptation is a strong part of the Japanese
character, but don't confuse this with imitation.  A definite
synthesis between foreign and Japanese ideas occurred and is still
occurring.

A note on language:

Japanese is a language separate from Chinese.  When writing in
Japanese, one can directly translate syllable for syllable into
Japanese script (katakana), but semantic ambiguity is very common.
So, to remove ambiguity, one replaces the ambiguous word with the
Chinese ideograph that represents exactly what one wants to convey.
The other script (hiragana) is used for borrowed foreign words, like
makidonorodo (MacDonald's), kohe (coffee), and gasorin (gasoline).

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 16:38:56 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Srewfly Solution

rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes:
>For example, does the gene pool get too restricted. A great deal of
>inbreeding must needs take place in such a situation, and it looks
>like any bad genes would get reinforced in the long run. [...]
>Also, you can't count on evolution to eliminate bad traits.
>
>   Exempli Gratii: Supposes I were Adam. This almost guarantees
>that all future inhabitants would acquire bad eyesight and
>clumsiness, and we would have a race of people wandering around
>bumping into walls, rocks, trees, small animals, large
>carnivores...

You can't have it both ways.  Either those with undesirable traits
get killed, in which case natural selection and evolution work; or
they don't, in which case survival is not in question.

The restriction of the gene pool is a problem; but there is no
absolute "can't survive below this level" point.  Just gradually
decreasing chance of species survival as the initial population gets
smaller.  I would guess that if you somehow reduced the human race
to two members without massive damage to the rest of the biosphere,
that if that got past the first generation, survival would be quite
probable.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 86 0802-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #178
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 15:08:57 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: Men and Sauron

Actually, the Valar did not create the Elves.  Illuvatar did.  Both
elves and men were considered as Children of Illuvatar.  They were
both created as part of the manifestation of the Music of Eru.

Steve Liu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 15:24:27 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: Valar vs. Maia

Is the offspring of an elf and a maia an elf or a maia?  That is,
what was Luthien?  Also, what was Dior Eluchil, son of Beren and
Luthien?  And also, what were the children of Dior and Nimloth,
daughter of Celeborn?

Steve Liu

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 29 Jun 1986 12:13:13-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Sauron as Vala

The question was asked whether Sauron was originally one of the
Valar.

There is little doubt left about this point.  Sauron was originally
one of the Maiar of Aule.  Melkor seduced him into his service very
early on in the history of Arda.  Sauron became Melkor the Morgoth's
lieutenant and most powerful servant.  After Morgoth's defeat,
Sauron set up on his own as the prime mover of evil in Middle Earth,
similar to Morgoth but far less powerful.

A minor quibble on terminology.  The term VALA (plural VALAR) refers
to the most powerful of the angelic beings that Illuvatar created
before the world.  The Valar are: Melkor (before his fall), Manwe,
Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Namo (aka Mandos), Nienna, Irmo (aka
Lorien), Vaire, Orome, Vana, Tulkas, and Nessa.  The lesser angelic
beings, some of whom were nearly as powerful as the Valar, are
called MAIAR.  Examples of the more powerful Maiar are Olorin
(Gandalf), Sauron, Arien, Osse, Uinen, and Ungoliant.  The Balrogs
were Maiar of fire whom Melkor seduced into service.  The collective
term for the beings whom Illuvatar created before the world is AINUR
(singular AINU).

PSW

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 14:12:06 GMT
From: fisher!larsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Larsen)
Subject: Re: Valar vs. Maia

From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
> To clarify, Manwe, Ulmo, Elbereth, and Melkor/Morgoth are Valar;
> Sauron, Gandalf, and the other Wizards, (and I think Luthien) are
> Maia.

Luthien was definitely an elf although her mother was a Maia.

> Tom Bombadil is something else, probably not created by Illuvatar.

This is a theory I haven't heard before.  Do you have a passage in
mind?

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 86 17:25:08 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts

I loved "The Hobbit."  I was enthralled (several times) by "The Lord
of the Rings."  But when I got to the "Silmarillon" (sp?), I
received a nasty shock.  I just couldn't get into it; I only read a
dozen pages or so.

My question: What else by Tolkien is more in the narrative style of
LotR?  I did read some of the things in "The Tolkien Reader," but
they are more in the whimsical style of "The Hobbit."  Does
"Silmarillon" get better later (it would have to get *much*
better!)?  Are the "Unfinished Tales" worth looking into?  Or is
LotR his single masterpiece?

Richard Hoffman
Schlumberger Well Services
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet
PO Box 2175, Houston, TX 77252

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 20:01:07 GMT
From: tekecs!leonard@caip.rutgers.edu (Leonard Botleman)
Subject: Re: Men and Sauron

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>There were Three Kindreds: Elves, created by the Ainur (Valar);
>Dwarves, created by Aule... and Men, created by Iluvatar.  The
>times of the advent of the first two were known by the Valar;...

No! The Elves were the First-born children of Illuvitar, not the
Valar!  Melkor was the first Valar to find out about the Elves, and
Orome was the first of the good Valar to discover the Elves.
Remember that the Elves were terrified by the first appearance of
Orome because of their previous encounters with Melkor (or Melkor's
servants).

>The Elves were shown the wonder of Valinor very soon after they
>awoke, and for a time almost *all* the Elves lived in Valinor.

Again, not true.  Fewer than half the Sindar, the largest group of
elves by far, made it to Valinor.  Many quit the journey along the
way, and many more elected to stay in Beleriand with Elwe (Thingol).

>(For example: when the Elves awoke, the night was beautiful with
>starlight and nature in all its glory.  Man awoke to night also...
>night made fearful by Melkor and his servants.

The Elves awoke at the second kindling of the stars by Elbereth,
which is why they usually hold her in reverence above the other
Valar, and Men awoke as the Sun first came into the sky (day, not
night), which is why men generally fear the darkness.

Leonard Bottleman
allegra!tektronix!tekecs!leonard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 11:16 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Elves vs. Maia

> yet he made the Silmarils and the Palantiri, which were, as
> Gandalf said, beyond the skill of Sauron to make.

One of the points that Tolkien makes several times is that Good is
creative, and that Evil can only corrupt.  For example, Melkor
"created" Orcs and Trolls from Elves and Ents.  Sauron needed the
Elvish ringlore to make the Rings of Power.  These examples are
numerous.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 13:37:24 GMT
From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski)
Subject: Re: Who wrote the Lord of the Rings?

cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) writes:
>I don't suppose that anyone found some handwritten, red bound books
>among Tolkien's papers after his death; barring that, is the answer
>to the question known from any other source?

It states in _Lost_Tales_ Part 1, that the 3 Red Books written by
Bilbo are _The_Silmarillion_ in full. They do not contain any of The
Lord of the Rings.

Ron

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 13:46:26 GMT
From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski)
Subject: Re: Men and Sauron

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>You have to understand Middle-earth history.  Specifically:
>
>There were Three Kindreds: Elves, created by the Ainur (Valar);
>Dwarves, created by Aule... and Men, creted by Iluvatar. The times
>of the advent of the first two were known by the Valar[...]
>
>On the other hand, the time of the advent of Men was a secret known
>only to Iluvatar. [...]

No, Elves were NOT creatd by the Valar. The Eldar (elves) AND Men
were BOTH the children of Iluvitar. Also, the Valar did not know the
'time of the advent' of elves at all. One of the Valar (Orome?)
discovered them while roaming the land. The Valar knew that Elves
and Men were coming, but not when.

Ron

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 15:42:55 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: And again, rings

vis@trillian.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes:
>>This was caused MUCH earlier: Dwarves were commissioned to set the
>>Silmaril which Thingol had received from Beren in the necklace
>>Nauglamir.  But the Dwarves, aroused by the beauty of the
>>Silmaril, stole Nauglamir, which ultimately led to the destruction
>>of Doriath.  This caused the estrangement of Dwarves and Elves.
>
>I thought the split was even earlier than that. Wasn't it
>forordained at their creation that they wouldn't get along with the
>other races?

   Yes, it was foreordained, but I would not call this the *cause*
of the rift. In reading the sagas of Middle Earth it is clear that
there is a distinction between Destiny and cause. Many things in
Middle Earth are fated to be, but they *still* have causes or
reasons within the framework of Middle Earth!

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 16:07:07 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: More Rings...

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Which is STILL pretty much the same thing.  (I may NEVER learn to
>speak English; the intent I really meant is that the two are so
>tightly connected that one must accompany the other.  The
>Wraith-world has power over the flesh-world.

   Only in limited degree, and only over things of the *mind*.  Pure
wraiths heve very *little* power over physical objects. Look at what
happened to Saruman at the end! Or, remember that Sauron had to make
himself a new body before he could begin to dominate Middle Earth
again in the Third Age!

>The Seven -- it's only a theory; they are never explained.  But the
>Seven and the Nine were created at about the same time and by the
>same collaboration between Celebrimbor and Sauron.  So it's a
>reasonable theory that they were intended to work the same way.
>Which says a lot for Aule's work in creating the Dwarves...

   Yes indeed, in fact my understanding is that the Seven anfd the
Nine are *identical* and it just the incredible immunity of the
Dwarves to outside influence that "saved" them.

>>I always thought that the "mindchat" was a native skill of three
>>of the Wise involved, seldom used, but nevertheless available.
>>But on reflection, I'm sure that the Three would at least enhance
>>their abilities.  Don't forget, though, that this is
>>communications among willing parties, and not spying or invasion.
>
>The Rings only make the communication possible.  Of course, it
>helps if the participants are willing, and an unwilling-enough (and
>powerful-enough mind, namely Galadriel's) can block even the One
>Ring.  Remember that Galadriel and Elrond are Noldor, and never is
>it mentioned that the Noldor have this ability.  Gandalf is another
>matter...

   I must agree with the idea that it was a native ability, perhaps
somewhat enhanced by the Rings. Yes it *is* said that Noldor have
this ability. Read the account of the first meeting of Noldor and
Men in the Silmarillion, it is quite clear that the Noldorin princes
were able to understand the human speech becasue they could read
thier minds.

>Given that she has said that the Rings confer the ability to know
>the minds and thoughts of others to those with the requisite mental
>stature, this seemed obvious.
>
>Argument in my favor.  The Nazgul felt it, albeit dimly, and made a
>sweep of the Marshes.  Not getting anything clearer, it left.
>
>>King lead Mordor's first armies out of Minas Morgul, with the Ring
>>itself lying right opposite him, across the valley; when Frodo was
>>captured
>
>But the King of Angmar FELT it.  Reread, please.  He felt it, again
>dimly.  Frodo's weakness of mind undoubtedly saved him, as the Ring
>had no powerful mind to draw upon to put out traceable power.

   Yes, the Nazgul could feel the presence of the One Ring, it was
their master, and they could feel its power as an oppression upon
them. It was *not* Frodo's weakness of mind that saved him in Morgul
Vale, it was the power of the Silmaril in the Phial that did so.

>Ditto.  Sam, not having worn the Ring before, is even weaker
>mentally than Frodo, which is the only thing that saved him.

   No, I think it was taking the Ring *off* that saved him.

>I was unclear again.  Sauron felt a great power approaching Mordor,
>but didn't know what power.  When Aragorn revealed himself, Sauron
>became convinced that Aragorn was in fact the power, and that he
>might even have the Ring.  So believing, and able to trace Aragorn,
>he no longer worried about the unidentified power, since he'd
>obviously identified it... and in the meantime, Frodo carried the
>REAL power toward Orodruin.

   This is quite possible, but Sauron would have been suspicious
even if he had not felt any approaching power. His intelligence
reports had told him that the Fellowship had entered Gondor, and he
*knew* one of them had the Ring, even without magic. And they had to
have *some* purpose in coming south, or they would not have done it.
So Aragorn provided Sauron with a reason!

>As I hinted above, the Ring needs to be worn to have any measurable
>power.  This explains the scene quite well and fits ion with the
>Ring's other capabilities, which require it to be worn.

   Well, *some* of the powers require it to be worn, but it is clear
that even unworn it can have much power. Especially in Mordor, near
its place of forging! Look what just *holding* the Ring did for Sam
in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and again for Frodo when Gollum
attacked him on the slopes of Orodruin. In fact, I think it is this
power of domination that allows the Nazgul to sense it, since they
would be particlularly sensitive to it.
   In fact it is my belief that Gollum's falling into the Cracks of
Doom was *not* an accident! Frodo had said "If you touch me again
you shall be cast into the Cracks of Doom" while holding the Ring,
and when Gollum attacked Frodo again he *was* cast into the Cracks
of Doom!! That is *too* much of a coincidence. (the quote may not be
exact, I do not have the book here).

>``Behind that there was someething else at work, beyond any design
>of the Ring-maker.  I can put it no plainer than by saying that
>Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker.''  This
>may also have applied to its slipping away from Gollum; on the
>other hand the Ring DOES have power when not worn, it just works
>more slowly and subtly, as it has less power to use for its
>``purposes''.

   Absolutely, this is clear in many incidents in the story.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 20:32:00 GMT
From: csd2!krantz@caip.rutgers.edu (Michaelntz)
Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts

Your subject heading says it all: if you are a 'lesser enthusiast'
(and I'm not making any moral judgements here, even though they're
probably deserved ;-) ), you probably won't be really thrilled by
anything except LotR.  The rest of the stuff is endless fodder for
serious Middle Earth Freaks, the trivia, all the detailed societal
analysis you see going on on this net, etc - but in terms of
literary merit and general readability, I think "The Hobbit" and
LotR are really all you've got (you'd be surprised how many times
you can reread LotR and still love it, though; I'm into double
figures myself...)

Ciao,
mike krantz

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 13:14:13 GMT
From: hdsvx1!hoffman@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Re: Orcs

> Just what does happen to Orcs? I don't know. If they are corrupted
> and deformed elves, perhaps they too are reborn in their children.
> On the other hand, they may have been so badly deformed that their
> spirits were alo effected, and they do not get reborn. In this
> case what happens? ... Any explanations?

I would suggest that the evil master lacked the skills to imbue orcs
with "spirit."  This fact explains a lot about orcs.  If they had
any kind of inner-being at all, you would expect to occasionally
find a "good" orc.  But without spirit, they can only function as
looting-killing-stealing machines, which was probably the initial
intent.  So what happens when they die?  Zip.  Nothing there to get
reborn, or to wander, or to do anything.

Richard Hoffman
Schlumberger Well Services
hoffman%hdsvx1@slb-doll.csnet
PO Box 2175, Houston, TX 77252

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 21:36:59 GMT
From: sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu)
Subject: Re: Sauron as Vala

Where does it say that Ungoliant is a Maia?

Steven Liu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 86 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #179
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:

               Books - Bester & Bradley & Heinlein &
                       Lem & Book Request & 
                       Author Request Answered,
               Films - Bladerunner Soundtrack,
               Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) &
                       Blake's 7 & Space: 1999,
               Miscellaneous - Orion Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 02:06:22 GMT
From: valid!bog@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill "O is for Bill" Gallimeister)
Subject: Re: Herbert, Frank (really about Alfred Bester, funny science
Subject: fiction)

George Robbins writes..
> Alfred Bester is another good example of an author who only
> produced really good stuff when working closely with an editor.
> 'The Demolished Man' and 'The Stars my Destination' are great and
> the rest barely worth reading...

I howl in dismay!  Alfred Bester is wonderful.  His short stories
(may I suggest "Fondly Fahrenheit" and "The Pi Man" for starters)
are in that small quantity of work that can make THIS jaded reader
go, "Wow!" (meaning, for me, that he is right up there with Harlan
Ellison, Orson Scott Card, Stanislaw Lem and William Faulkner).
Three of his other novels, _The Computer Connection_, _Golem^100_
and _The Deceivers_, are splendid.  Bester has an engagingly madcap
and macabre style which NO ONE has duplicated.  I grant that _The
Stars my Destination_ and _The Demolished Man_ are his best...but
then, I think that _The Stars My Destination_ may possibly be the
best action science fiction ever written.

Bill O. Gallmeister
{hplabs,amd,pyramid,ihnp4}!pesnta!valid!bog

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 16:40:32 GMT
From: 6082317@PUCC.BITNET (Douglas Davidson)
Subject: Re: Darkover

PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU (Stephen Pearl) writes:
>I just finished "Darkover Landfall" by Marion Zimmer Bradley and
>enjoyed it alot.  However, when I went to the bookstore, I found
>tens of Darkover titles and no idea which book comes next.  Can
>someone post a chronological listing of all the Darkover books and
>maybe some sort of rating system?  Any help would be most
>appreciated.

Well, somebody made the request, so I guess I have some excuse for
writing and posting this.  Anyway, here goes; I apologize ahead of
time for not having all the books on hand; some of this will depend
on my memory.  Mail me any corrections and I will collect and post
them; I don't want to start another endless round of 'expert wars'
like the LotR stuff.  Differences of opinion are welcome by mail or
posting.

Here is a list of the Darkover books in Darkovan chronology, so far
as I have been able to determine it; keep in mind that some of the
orders and most of the time intervals are derived by indirect means
from often ambiguous and sometimes contradictory indications in the
books.  In parentheses are the realtime dates, at least the ones I
have written down.  Unless otherwise noted, "years" means Darkovan
years.

Darkover Landfall(1972)
  The origin of human settlement on Darkover.  Here is a gap
  variously estimated at two thousand to fifteen thousand plus (!)
  years.  I prefer the lower estimates.
Stormqueen!(1978)
Hawkmistress!(1982)
Two To Conquer(1980)
  These three take place from decades to centuries apart, but all
  some several hundred years before the next group; this is the Ages
  of Chaos.  All the rest of the books take place some decades after
  the Terran rediscovery of Darkover.
The Shattered Chain(1976)
  first part (the second part is twelve years later)
Spell Sword(1974)
The Forbidden Tower(1977)
The Shattered Chain   (second part)
Thendara House(1983)
City of Sorcery(1984)
   These six books take place over about twenty years; they share
   many characters and much plot.  FT is an immediate sequel to SS,
   likewise TH to SC.  CS is about 7 years after TH.  There is
   little direct report of the events of the next generation, though
   they seem highly significant.
Star of Danger(1965)
Winds of Darkover(very early)
The Bloody Sun(1964)
The Bloody Sun(late)
   I place these together only because they fall into the 60+ year
   gap between two sets.  SD and WD are (?) fairly close together
   about 10-15 years after CS, BS is 30-35 years later, with
   flashbacks of 20-25 years.  Note that there are two versions of
   BS, the second one part of MZB's rewrite program; it is thicker
   and corrects some of the facts.  The third generation is dealt
   with in more detail:
Heritage of Hastur(late)
Sharra's Exile(1981)
Sword of Aldones(very early)
The Planet Savers(early)
The World Wreckers(early)
   HH is perhaps 60+ years after CS; SE is a sequel to it and a
   rewrite of SA.  PS and WW are early attempts with little relation
   to the rest; chronology is hard, but they are evidently late on
   the time line.

There are also three anthologies of short stories by MZB and others,
Sword of Chaos, The Keeper's Price, and (I believe?) Free Amazons of
Darkover; the stories occur at various times in the chronology.

Recommendations:

In reading these books it is wise to bear in mind that they were
written over a period of more than twenty years, during which time
the abilities and interests of the author have changed dramatically.
Furthermore, the story of Darkover is no unified creation, but an
accretion of these years; you will note that the earliest books come
late in the chronology, and in fact the series seems mostly to have
evolved backwards.  Also, the series really is not a series, but
more a group of cycles with some common background; I have divided
the books into six groups above, and tried to make some indication
of the connections, but they might well be arranged any number of
ways.  Any book really can be read without reference to the others,
but I think some knowledge of the relationships will help.  I have
recommended SS followed by FT for newcomers: I think SS a good
introduction to the basic theme of the Terran on Darkover, and also
exciting if a bit thin; FT is to me the crux of the whole
enterprise, and a crux in the appreciation of MZB's mature style.
From there, the SC-TH-CS line embodies MZB's recent focused interest
in feminism that seems to have won her such popularity.  These three
books are quite well done, perhaps even increasingly so with time,
but I personally found CS surprisingly uninteresting.  The three
books of the Ages of Chaos (Sq, Hm, TTC) are good for separate
reading, for each stands on its own; each one seems a solid work,
and a fair sample of the author.  The sequence HH-SE is a rewriting
of the first conception of Darkover, SA; I think it is a good
attempt, but the flaws of the original weigh heavily upon it.  The
rest of the books, with the exception of the second BS, will
probably appeal only to enthusiasts.  DL has some interesting ideas,
if one ignores its lack of character development; I think its main
purpose comes from its place in the history of Darkover.  SA is
unreadable, as the author has rightly noted.  WD, PS, and WW are
curiosities now, not particularly bad, but not (especially in
comparison with MZB's later work) particularly good.  I find SD and
BS interesting less for what they contain, than for what they refer
to, for the whole history of the planet between the times of Damon
Ridenow and Lew Alton is known mostly from the gleanings of these
books.  SD in itself is a juvenile in a class with the other early
books; BS is rather more interesting, for the newcomer probably more
in the rewrite than the original; purists will of course read both.
I have not read all of the story collections, but what I have read I
have not found worth the reading.  I might say much more than this,
but I would then go beyond my purpose of giving guidance to the
newcomer.  Read the books and form your own opinions, no doubt quite
different from mine.

Douglas Davidson
BITNET: 6082317@PUCC
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 15:14:50 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question

Nathan Glasser writes:
>> Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the
>> blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he
>> became his own ancestor..." I haven't been able to figure out
>> what in the story this referred to. Any ideas about this?
>
> Is there ANY evidence that the fools who write those blurbs EVER
> first read the book they're writing about?!?  I have yet to see
> any.

It sounds like they've confused TEFL with "All You Zombies."  AYZ is
arguably the best short story I've ever read.  I recommend it
heartily to anyone anywhere for any reason.  And if you already have
or plan to read The Cat Who Walks Through Walls you simply *must*
read it.

Trivia: the Hooter's song of the same name has nothing to do with
RAH's "All You Zombies," as nearly as I can figure out.  Neither
does Pat Benatar's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" have anything to
do w/RAH's.  Nor is RAH's "Starship Trooper" related to the song by
Yes.  Does anybody know any other songs with the same titles as
books or stories by Heinlein?

S. Luke Jones
AT&T Information Systems
Middletown, New Jersey
...ihnp4!mtung!slj

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 05:22:00 GMT
From: bolotin@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanis

> Is anyone else upset that in the first story in _The Cyberiad_
> (about the robot that could do anything that starts with the
> letter N--talk about a translator's nightmare) that he chose
> *that* particular thing to miss most?  Besides, everyone knows
> they're still here.  Maybe it wasn't a word when the translators
> did it.

I've read this story, and I enjoyed it. Sorry if I'm being dense,
but what word did he miss?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 21:06:27 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: When will these books come out?

I am aware that Teckla is supposed to come out around December, and
that Chanur's Homecoming is supposed to come out in January.  But
can anyone tell me when the following books are likely to be
available?

  The conclusion to Pamela Dean's The Secret Country (SKZB?)
  The conclusion to Greg Bear's Infinity Concerto
  The next part of Roger Zelazny's new Amber series (titled
    Ghostwheel?)
  The sequel to Barry Hughart's Bridge of Birds

I can be patient, but I like to know for how long...

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 19:25:39 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Book query: _Green Eyes_ (?)

li@uw-vlsi.UUCP (Phyllis Li) writes:
>There was a Berkely Fiction book that had, as a premise, the
>resurrection people.  The live dead had glowin green eyes, which is
>why I thought that that was the title; but I could be wrong.

It was, indeed, called "Green Eyes;" the author is Lucius Shepard.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jul 86 13:27 MST
From: Paul Dickson <Dickson@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Bladerunner soundtrack
Cc: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@CS.UCL.AC.UK>

A bit of the music from 'Short Stories' by Jon Anderson & Vangelis
was in Bladerunner. It took me a while to realize this because I
wasn't playing the CD or the video tape very often.

Paul Dickson
Dickson%pco@HI-Multics

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 20:45:09 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@caip.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

   Max Headroom has been, and will be again, hosting 'The Max
Headroom Show' on Cinemax.  It is a very strange video program, and
it's amusing to see him interviewing singers from a tv set on a bar.
I believe that he started from some British action/adventure show
where he was 'written' by a teen whiz, and was the target of nasty
guys because of something to do with subliminal messages (?).

eliz

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 11:39:48 GMT
From: well!ltf@caip.rutgers.edu (Lance T Franklin)
Subject: Max Headroom Special



For those of you who may be interested in Max Headroom:

   The Max Headroom Story
   on CineMax
   July 3rd
   Time?  Who Knows.

I'm sure all you....Cokeologists out there will be there!

------------------------------

Date: 1 July 1986 12:20:12 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson            )
Subject: Star Trek & Blake's 7

   First, thanks to all those on the net who provided the
information about the Star Trek episode "Turnabout Intruder."
Actually, I've seen that episode several times but I wasn't aware
until now that it was the last original episode aired before the
show was axed.

   While on the subject of sci-fi TV episodes, I have a query about
the British SF series Blake's 7. I missed the episode in which Gan,
a member of the Liberator crew, was killed. Could anyone tell me the
name of that episode and what happened? (And how Gan died?) Also, I
missed the last half hour of the episode titled "Killer," so I would
appreciate any information on that, too.

Thanks in advance,

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 11:33:56 GMT
From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 on tape!

doug@xenixsp.UUCP writes:
>..._SYLVIA_DANNINGS_ADVENTURE_MOVIES_SPACE:_1999
>_THROUGH_THE_BLACK_SUN. Needless to say it looked interesting
>enough to warrant not seeing some other SF tape for the N+1'th
>time. Too Make a long story short it was two episodes of the old
>SPACE 1999 series, that someone had cleverly edited together, (I
>don't recall the names of the individual episodes but I remember
>them). The tape was well done considering the ages and low budget
>that SPACE 1999 had to work under.

   The budget certainly wasn't low, it was the most expensive tv
program ever produced up till that time..

>Excepting for the narrative" the two episodes that were chosen were
>to of the better ones that I remember from the first season of
>SPACE 1999. This is a good sign that there might be more of the
>SPACE 1999 series showing up in the stores soon. Hopefully without
>the narration.

   Toooo late... Several others have already been released.In order
they are:
   1) 'Destination Moonbase Alpha'      (Bringers of Wonder)
       This has a little narration whereby the events are moved to
       the year 2100(?) ..SPACE : 2100&abit ..I don't think so.
   2) 'Alien Attack' (Breakaway & War Games)
       A little naration & 'added bits' featuring Patrick Allen.
   3) 'Cosmic Princess' (Metamorph & Space Warp)
       Definitely the least narrated i.e. not at all. Has 1st season
       sound dubbed over it. This is the least interesting tape.
   4) The object you described which I have not managed to get yet.
       (Black Sun & Collision Course)

   Tis good to see someone else who likes quality nostalgia:-)
   What I do not understand is why these were released in such an
awful condition. Why not unedited copies? I recently saw some
unedited originals and believe the show was much better than many
people like to think, Flares prejudice perhaps?:-)

Andy T.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: orion project, references to in sf literature
Date: 30 Jun 86 13:12:48 GMT

From: bradley thompson <thompson%arc.cdn%ubc.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>

>In the 60's the US had a nuclear propulsion project called Orion. I
>am aware of two (2) references to this in books:
>   1- the shuttle taking H. Floyd up to the space station in 2001 was
>called the Orion.

I'm not quite sure it's fair to call the PanAm Orion in 2001 a
reference to the Orion project -- it was just a (more or less
conventional) winged hybrid (air-breathing/space-going) ship.  You
know, what the Shuttle would have been if only....

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 86 0853-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #180
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 5 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Card & Lem & Piper,
               Films - Books into Films (2 msgs) &
                       Labyrinth,
               Miscellaneous - Filksongs & Japanese &
                       The Space Program

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 09:14:57 GMT
From: cs1!cacscmst@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Steven Temkin)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
>Someone asked about the origin of Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus".
>The answer is in the notes for "Anthonology", which includes 3
>chapters of "Prostho Plus". Those two are the only P.A. books I
>bought, and I am sorry, and promise not to do it again!
>
>In the "Anthonology" notes, he whines how hard it was for him to
>make his first sales, and crows how he has made it big now.  No
>wonder: as a writer, he is absolute trash, totally incompetent, and
>I can only praise the editors who defended us from him.
>Unfortunately, the market for trashy fantasy allowed him to get out
>of the garbage cans and into the bookshelves ("it took me ten years
>to elbow Asimov aside", quoth the buzzard).
>
>What about the origin of "Prostho Plus", you ask? He wanted to milk
>something more out of the money he paid for dental work.

Don't think you're so smart that two books tell you all about an
author.  I have every P.A. book ever published!  There are some
dogs, but on the whole, he is an excellent author.  Try the Bio,
Cluster, or Incarnations series.  Although it has gotten out of hand
with 9 books, the Xanth series is still an excellent series to read.
When you read (if you know how to read) his books, be sure to read
the Author's Note at the end of his books since it is here he states
who his favorite authors are, and how he rates his own books.  By
the way, are you also an authority on Lunar Camping also?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 14:00:15 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: ENDER'S WAR by Orson Scott Card (mild spoiler)

Time: the near future (150-200 years from now)

Place: mainly Earth, space station near earth, and the asteroid belt

Introduction: 70 years before the story starts, Earth fought a war
with the Buggers, insect creatures from another solar system. Only
through the brilliant and unexpected tactics of Mazer did Earth
succeed in destroying the Bugger fleet. Since that time the military
has been taking promising kids and sending them to military school
in the hopes of finding one genius who can lead the fleet against
the expected next invasion. Ender Wiggin appears to be that child.

Main storylines: Ender's training; brother and sister molding public
opinion back on Earth.

SF elements: lots of technology and tactics for space battles;
believable space station environment; netters will especially like
the extensive use of e-mail, e-news, and CAI.

Critique: This book is an expansion of the first story the author
ever published. With one minor exception, the book reads as if it
were of one fabric (and not one that has been stretched, either).
There's a lot of action since the adults who are directing Ender's
education keep throwing new situations at the kid. And since Ender
is a very advanced boy, the fact that the dialogue sounds as if it
came from adults is not disturbing. Most of the story takes place in
the first few years of Ender's training, and very little gets in the
way of the main storyline. The book also holds a couple of neat
surprises (which I won't give away, of course). I give the book 3.5
stars (very good) -- it's a keeper.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{mot|terak}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 10:10:39 GMT
From: de@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David England)
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanislaw Lem

gts@axiom.UUCP writes:
>No two of his books seem to have the same translator--maybe after
>translating one of his books, the translators change careers. :-)
>There seems to be no consistency between his short stories and his
>novels (I consider _The Futurological Congress_ to be a long short
>story).

I think Michael Kandel translated "Futurological Congress" and one
other ("Perfect Vacuum" ?). Perhaps he's recovering in a darkened
room somewhere.  I have a collection containing Solaris, Chain of
Chance and Perfect Vacuum but can't remember the publisher. Solaris
was baffling especially after seeing the Soviet film before reading
the book and Perfect Vacuum is ...  well.. how do you describe a set
of critical reviews of non-existent books with a self-referential
introduction ?

I read Star Diaries a couple of years ago and can't remember
anything about it. The stories are probably so far removed from
reality that they just don't stick.

Dave
uucp: ...!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!de
arpa: de%lancs.comp@ucl-cs

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 15:45:26 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: piper

I just finished Space Viking and Little Fuzzy and would wish to know
the titles of his others books and more about the man himself.

Thanks for any responses

Ray

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 13:21:55 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #175

It has been asked what sf books would make good movies, here is a
list of the ones I think would make the best.

   1. Ringworld by Larry Niven
   2. Space Viking by H. Beam Piper
   3. Stranger in a Strange Land By RAH
   4. Protector by Niven
   5. Dream Park by Niven and Barnes
   6. Mercenary by Jerry Pournelle

Any others to be added while we are dreaming?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jul 86 13:39:45 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re:Stories into flicks

Someone mentioned THE FINAL REFLECTION as a possible movie. My vote
would be cast for THE WOUNDED SKY--a terrific battle sequence is in
there, but what I want to see is all of Starfleet welcoming the
Enterprise home from the Lesser (?) Magellanic Cloud.

Garrett Fitzgerald
st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wisc.wiscvm.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 02:30:27 -0700
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>
Subject: Labyrinth (dissenting opinion)

I must disagree with the person who recently posted a glowing review
of the new film "Labyrinth" --- I absolutely hated it, and would
have walked out 20 minutes into it had I not driven others to the
theater.

Why this reaction?  The most prominent reason is, well, let me
digress for a moment.  Ursula LeGuin wrote a great essay called
"From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she addressed the uses and
abuses of fantasy.  The best fantasy, that which really *works*,
deploys myth and archetype in order to achieve a real sense of
fantasy, of another world.  This is LeGuin's "Elfland".  The spate
of bad recent fantasy, however, while adopting the trimmings
(dragons, quests, magic spells, unicorns, et al), evokes no sense of
atmosphere, no enchantment, nothing to resonate with the archetype
receptors in our brains ( :-) ).  This is Poughkeepsie.

And Poughkeepsie is squarely where "Labyrinth" falls, with a thud.
Our heroine, the spoiled brat (at the beginning--I'll get to that),
despite her hastily-sketched obsession with fantasy, is squarely out
of 1980's American suburbia, and so are her reactions to everything
she encounters.  True, Alice was matter-of-fact in her encounters,
but she saw the magic and treated it as such.  Whats-her-name just
acts as though she's in some D&D game: the whole movie gave me the
feeling of watching someone go through a very involved Disneyland
ride.  And the creatures she encounters are by and large no better;
they might as well have been taken in off the street (a street in
London for some of them) and given funny costumes to wear.

This may be a kid's film, but the characters and their dialog are
just like things I used to write when I was ten years old or so.
Just because it's aimed at children doesn't mean the writing has to
be childish.

Oh yes, the character development.  Whats-her-name is so
disagreeable at the beginning of the film that character development
is sorely necessary.  The filmmakers grudgingly remember this and,
every fifteen minutes or so, we're treated to a shovelful of soppy
sentimentality as gruff monsters become kindly in response to her
friendly advances, and everyone reflects on just how nice it is to
have friends to help you.  Phoney as all hell, and strictly
clockwork.

The absolute low points, in which I wanted to crawl out of the
theater: David Bowie as the Head Nasty Goblin breaking into a
typical bad recent Bowie song in the castle, a song referring often
to "baby" which from context alone seems to refer to the baby he's
stolen, while the goblins dance around in bad music-video fashion.
This COMPLETELY destroys any atmosphere or mood that may have,
against all odds, been fashioned by that point.

Okay, there was good stuff.  The special effects were superb, and
some were better than anything I've ever seen.  There were some
inventive thingys set in our heroine's path, creatures and devices
and such, but they were just props, they didn't connect, the
inventiveness didn't spread to anything else.

But overall ... all the good stuff is wasted amongst clumsy dialog,
bad acting, low humor (what's so funny about fart jokes?) ... there
was no attempt to create a coherent mood, the filmmakers just threw
in whatever they happened to think of.

"But Peter," you cry, "this is a movie for *children*!"  My reply:
"Just because it's to appeal to children doesn't mean it has to be
BAD."  Look at "Time Bandits", a film which did everything
"Labyrinth" attempts and succeeded amazingly.  A children's film
with fantasy and nifty special effects and even cuteness, that
managed to be honest, funny, enchanting and **fun as hell for
adults, too**.

Save your five bucks for the next time "Time Bandits" comes around
(or "The Company of Wolves", if you want great fantasy).  If you've
nothing better to do than get drunk and see a rented movie on your
VCR, then "Labyrinth" might be a good bet.

Rating?  I had a very unpleasant time watching this movie, so I'd
say -4, but on an objective scale I'd say it only deserves -3.  (+4
for sfx, -4 everything else.  How often have we all seen movies like
this in the last couple years?)

Peter Alfke
alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jul 86 13:49:37 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Filksongs

ENTERPRISE, STARSHIP

Words: Diane Duane
Music: Calypso, by John Denver

Verse 1:
To sail on a dream in the sun-fretted darkness,
To soar through the starlight unfrightened, alone,
To work in the service of life and the living,
In search of the answers to questions unknown,
To be part of the movement,and part of the growing,
Part of beginning to understand,

Chorus:
Enterprise, starship, the places you've been to,
The things that you've shown us, the stories you'd tell!
Enterprise, starship, we sing to your spirit,
The beings who have served you so long and so well.

Verse 2:
Like the starfire that guides you as we ride inside you,
You shine in the darkness and lead us aright,
And though we are strangers in your silent spaces,
While we're in your world we can learn from your night,
To be constant as stars, to reach ever outward,
Laughing and loving and *being* the light!

CHORUS

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 12:01:11 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: THE CYBERNETIC SAMURAI by Victor Milan
From: Shinsato.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

> He speaks of writing Japanese with Chinese characters and makes
> references to classic Chinese art and other aspects of Chinese
> life in such a way as to imply that the Japanese have adopted
> Chinese culture.  This simply isn't true, and it only serves to
> jar the reader out of an otherwise well-drawn society.

I'm so sorry, but I can not let you get away with such a statement.
Japan has adopted Chinese culture to a large extent.  Japanese
culture is still Japanese, but you gain nothing by denying the major
influence.

First of all, Japanese writing is COMPLETELY taken from Chinese.
Kanji, the ideograms which Japanese use are Chinese ideograms.  Some
of the ideograms have changed in minor ways, but the basic symbols
and their meanings remain.  Katakana and Hiragana are much further
removed from Chinese, since they are phonetic and have lost their
original symbolism, but they were modified Chinese ideograms (just
as the Roman alphabet originally came from a set of ideograms that
were adopted for their sounds rather than their meanings).

Japan has managed to remain Japan even though it has submitted to
both the influence of Chinese and Western civilization.  Some might
say that that is the source of Japan's current strength.

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jul 86 09:50 ???
From: MLEWIS%FLVAX1%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
Subject: Sorrow over the Space Program

     I was reading the messages about the Space Program, and it
reminded me of a conversation I had recently.  Right after the
Challenger disaster, a friend was bemoaning the possibly fatal blow
that the Space Program had taken.  He was afraid that the Government
would be reluctant to send seven more people up, and in any case,
there was no money for a new ship.
     "I wish the American people could do something to demonstrate
their support and enthusiasm for another Shuttle," he said.
"Someone should start a fund or something, that the country could
get behind, and and we could contribute and finance a new one."
     "Why don't you?" I asked.
     "Oh, I couldn't do that," he replied.  "People don't listen to
me.  I can't sell an idea or anything else."
     End of conversation.  Except that last Sunday he turned up with
a terrific pin on his lapel, with a space shuttle on it.  He DID
start it, and the Challenger 7 Fund has begun.  This is a real grass
roots deal, but for real, and the press releases are coming out next
week.
     If people want to participate, they may send contributions (in
US funds) to:

   Challenger 7 Fund
   1123 Wicklow Dr.
   Dallas TX 75218

     Any contributor who sends at least $6 will receive a pin.
There are also such goodies as T-shirts and gimme caps and a poster
on the drawing board.  I think the neatest thing, though, is that
the names of all identifiable contributors will go on a microdot
which will go up with Challenger 7.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 86 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #181
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 6 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 23:19:12 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rings...last comment

>Vilya - This one was given to Elrond.  This one preserves wisdom
>and knowledge.  Was not Rivendell the Last Homely Home wherein much
>wisdom was stored...in all forms: song, prose, and personal
>experience.  This trait is also reflected in the character of
>Elrond (coincidence??)

This one was actually first given to Gil-Galad, but he gave it to
Elrond, presumably before the battle of the Last Alliance.  Beyond
that, I agree with you, and I suspect Vilya gave Elrond power to
maintain Rivendell as a last retreat for the Wise in a darkening
world.

>Narya - This one was originally given to Cirdan who then passed it
>along to Gandalf when he realized that he would have much more need
>of it and could make better use of it.  This ring preserves and
>uplifts the spirits of those around it.  Ever notice how people are
>always sad to see him leave and how he always manages to make those
>around him feel better? Gandalf himself is very often described in
>words which conjure thoughts of flame and fire....(coincidence??)

I say again: Narya, though named the Ring of Fire, had nothing to do
with Gandalf's mastery of flame and fireworks.  That was his special
ability, aided by his staff.  You say correctly that it was to
uplift the spirits of those whom Gandalf rallied to the defense of
the West, his single great purpose in being in Middle Earth.

Yet it certainly isn't true that *everybody* was glad to see him,
and sorry when he left.  People around Hobbiton wished he would
leave Frodo alone to grow some proper hobbit sense, and the Rohirrim
and the Dunedain of Gondor, observing how he and bad times seemed to
arrive together, welcomed him ever more coolly.  Yet he instilled
fierce loyalty among those who had been with him during the worst of
times: they grew to love even his swift temper.

>When Gandalf came from the Valar to begin his work, Cirdan
>immediately saw that he had a long and heavy burden.  It was
>natural for him to pass on the ring, especially to one who worked
>with fire (You might almost say it was ordained by "SOMEONE" - And
>yes, I think it was a factor in his fight with the Balrog).

While I fully agree with most of your argument, the descriptions of
the Rings' functions, the things for which their designers wanted
them, have no connection with the special concentrations of the
various Istari.  Gandalf would have received the Ring of Fire
whatever his specialisation, because, as the enemy of the One Enemy,
which Cirdan foresaw he would be, he needed the Ring that would
rally followers.

What do you feel it contributed to the fight against the Balrog?
Certainly it wasn't directly a weapon.  The only thing I can imagine
is that it heightened the eagerness of the Company to stand with
Gandalf, which is exactly what he didn't want: he wanted them to
escape Moria as fast as they could.  Of course (this only just
occurred to me) it may have raised their morale enough that they did
run even after Gandalf fell, rather than panicing, or simply giving
up -- though I can't imagine that of Aragorn under any
circumstances.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 23:42:09 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Galadriel's power

The matter of what power Galadriel had, and how much came from her
Ring, reminded me of something I'd nearly forgotten:

During the Siege of Gondor, Mordor launched attacks at two or three
other locations.  Three of these (in succession, of course) were at
Lorien.  All were repelled.  Then, when the Siege had been defeated,
Galadriel and Celeborn emerged from Lothlorien leading a host of
Elves, crossed the Anduin, and attacked Dol Guldur.  Now for what I
want to emphasise:

According to the only descriptions I've seen of this attack, it was
Galadriel who threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, and cleansed its
dungeons.  While I can see her Ring of healing and preservation
helping greatly to deal with the dungeons, it would have done
nothing to knock down walls.  Which means it must have been her own
power (and possibly Celeborn's) which did so.  This seems to me to
suggest that she herself, even unaided, possessed great power, well
beyond the measure of the Sylvan Elves around her (most of the Elves
of the Galadrim were Sylvan).  In fact, even though she was not a
Maia, she seems to have had power on their scale.  Either this was
intrinsic to the Noldor, being among the highest of the high, raised
by the Valar well above the levels of the Elves who remained in
Middle Earth; or perhaps it was in her family, starting with Feanor,
whose craft attained things that even Maiar seemed unable to do.

Unfortunately, I know of no further details of the attack, nor can I
think of other instances of Galadriel in full cry.  I think we just
have to accept the fact that Galadriel seemed to have immense power,
but that details of it, and where it came from, will always be a
mystery.  What a pity Celebrimor died in the Second Age: to see him
at work would have been an education, to say the least, and a good
comparison with her.

If anybody can shed better light than this, I'd be very happy to see
it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  1 Jul 1986 15:03:59-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Sauron and the One Ring's corrupting influence

I do not buy Mark Crispin's assertions concerning Sauron's
repentence and his subsequent corruption by the One Ring.

First of all, it is by no means clear that Sauron's repentence is
genuine.  The most Tolkien ever said is that he MAY have genuinely
repented, at least at first.  The facts are (1) Sauron was genuinely
dismayed at the defeat of Morgoth and the power of the Valar in the
breaking of Thangorodrim, (2) Sauron did homage to Eonwe and claimed
to have repented, (3) Sauron did not return to Valinor to be judged
as ordered by Eonwe.

There are two possible explanations for this.  (1) Sauron was only
feigning to have repented, and was merely trying to avoid being
bound and forcibly brought back to Valinor for judgement.  (2)
Sauron truly repented, but fell back into his old ways due to his
impatience with the slow unfolding of things in Middle Earth.  (2)
is certainly very plausible.  Sauron's impatience and desire to
hurry things along by forcing others to do what he considered the
right thing may be the hook that Melkor used to ensnare him in the
first place.

My point is, there is no way of knowing whether or not Sauron's
repentence was genuine.  Tolkien left the point vague on purpose.

I think it is quite clear that Sauron was totally corrupt by the
time the One Ring was forged.  Even before he appeared in the West
as Annatar, he had already slipped back to his old ways.  Gil-Galad
warned Tar-Minastir that Evil (with a capital "E") had resurfaced in
the East of Middle Earth, and that was significantly before the
forging of the Rings.  Even at that early date the Wise had reason
to believe that the Shadow had re-awakened (subsequent events proved
this was the case).  The power to reduce mortal kind to wraiths was
built into the Rings at their forging.  This had to come from
Sauron--the Elvensmiths would hardly put this in themselves.  No
doubt Sauron left "undocumented hooks" in the Rings that would allow
him to control the Rings (and their posessors) with part of his own
power, once suitably transferred into the One.

Doubtless the One posessed great power to corrupt and to turn its
wearer towards evil.  As we can see with Saruman, mere desire for it
can corrupt.  Nonetheless, I do not think it corrupted Sauron.  He
was already as corrupt as they come (not less evil than Morgoth,
merely less powerful, as the Silmarillion says) when he forged it.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 22:07:29 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: ...and yet more Rings...

crane@rivest.dec.com writes:
>This quote brings up an interesting question. Who was Bombadil? He
>was called "the Eldest," having "walked Middle-Earth for ages
>before the Elves awoke."
>
>If he were literally the "Eldest," then his true name is Illuvatar.
>This seems quite unlikely, especially in light of the discussion in
>the Council of Elrond, in which is was said of Sauron's power,
>"...but sooner or later the Lord of the Rings would learn of It's
>hiding-place, and he would bend all of his power towards it. Could
>that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not..."

Personally, I am inclined to believe that Bombadil was Iluvatar, at
least in some sense.  The quote above is explained very easily: the
speaker does not know who Bombadil is (this is admitted), and so
underestimates his power.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 15:16:35 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Legolas

chris@maryland.UUCP (Lindor) writes:
>From: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen)
>>But [Legolas] *is* Sindarin, or a dialectic variant of it.  the
>>proper Sindarin form of the name would be 'Laigolas'.
>
>Well now I do feel dumb---though that still sounds a bit odd to me.
>Ah well, languages do change.  I was thinking of `leg' + `las', not
>`laigos', and the best I came up with was that `las' might be an
>alteration of `last', giving `sharp-eyed' (keen + look).  (No one
>would call his son `able-leaf', except perhaps in jest.)
>
>Ah!  Come to think of it, Legolas was rather sharp-eyed at that.
>What a marvellous pun!

   Well, not so dumb really, the proper Sindarin form was in one of
the letters in <The Tolkien Letters>, which is a rather obscure
source. There is in fact a simple way of tellng that the name is
*not* Quenya though. Quenya, or at least the dialect of it spoken in
Middle Earth, has *no* free-standing voiced stops, like the 'g' in
Legolas.  In Quenya voiced stops only occur in combination with a
nasal or with an 'l', as in 'ando', 'alda', 'imbe'.
   "Las" is of course the Sindarin cognate to the Quenya "lasse"
(plural "lassi"), meaning leaf. As a matter of fact, even in Quenya
a final, unaccented "lasse" in a compound word would probably be
reduced to "las" in the Nominative/Accusative case. As for instance
in the word "coimas" from "masse" <loaf>. The evidence is that this
reduction was primarily restricted to the Noldorin dialect of Quenya
though.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 15:28:19 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Guiding power for good

From: Steven.Lammert@cive.ri.cmu.edu
>>   3.  There are hints at a guiding power for good in LotR.
>>  Gandalf@* says at one point "All I can say is that Bilbo was
>>  meant to find the@* Ring, and not by its maker".  He is clearly
>>  implying that Someone is@* helping the good guys.
>
>I disagree.  When the Valar laid down their guardianship of
>Middle-Earth, and called upon Eru to foil the invasion of Aman by
>Ar-Pharazon, my reading of the text is that this was not a
>permanent arrangement.  Granted, in the Third Age they seem to
>restrict their interactions with the Children of Illuvatar to
>intermediaries such as the Istari

   This is certainly my understanding. In fact I see several other
places where the Valar may have stepped in besides Elbereth's aid to
Frodo and Samwise. I have thought long on the incredible breaking of
the Mordor dark at the siege of Minas Tirith. Considering that it
was made by Sauron's magic it seems unbelievable that a mere earthly
wind could remove it. I have speculated that the wind was in fact
sent by Manwe, the Lord of Winds.

>  I always have believed that the phrase "Bilbo was meant to find
>the Ring, and not by its maker" referred to Elbereth or one of her
>kind.
>
>Illuvatar, Eru, The One, is rarely mentioned in LotR.  I think that
>the Valar are probably the ones that Gandalf had in mind.  After
>all, he talks with some familiarity about the Blessed Realm and its
>inhabitants; and though "removed from the circles of the world,"
>they are still very interested in Middle Earth and its fate.

   Here I must disagree, I do not think that the Valar had the power
of Fate, that comes from the Music and the Will of Eru. Thus I do
believe that Bilbo was Fated to find the Ring from before the Making
of Ea. This is equivalent to saying that Eru decreed it. Eru is
rarely mentioned out of respect(sort of like the Jewish taboo
against saying the name of God). One place where I think there is
indirect mention is when Gandalf talks about his experience after
being killed by the Balrog. He talks about "wandering beyond space
and time" which might be a simple way of saying 'beyond Ea'. If so
then Gandalf was sent back by Eru himself, *not* by the Valar. I
believe this interpretation is supported by Tolkien himself.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 15:48:39 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts

hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP (Richard Hoffman) writes:
>My question: What else by Tolkien is more in the narrative style of
>LotR?  I did read some of the things in "The Tolkien Reader," but
>they are more in the whimsical style of "The Hobbit."  Does
>"Silmarillon" get better later (it would have to get *much*
>better!)?  Are the "Unfinished Tales" worth looking into?  Or is
>LotR his single masterpiece?

   I really do not think he ever finished anything else quite like
LotR. You made a mistake in trying to read the Silmarillion as a
single story, it is a collection of several, most of them written in
"historians" style. Read in the right frame of mind they are quite
interesting. Try reading the last one, which is the story of the
Third Age as it would be told by a historian from Gondor! It
provides a very interesting perspective on the events of LotR!
   As for "The Unfinished Tales", they are, to say the least,
*unfinished*. There are a few in it that have a very powerful epic
style(though different than LotR), but they are *all* missing
important pieces. There are also some fascinating pieces, or short
essays, pertaining to the history of Middle Earth, like an account
of the massacre at Gladden Fields and the events leading up to the
Oath of Eorl. There is also a passage originally intended for the
LotR that was deleted due to the length of the story. It is Gandalf
explaining what Sauron and Saruman were doing during the early part
of LotR. (There are unforunately three mutually contradictory drafts
of this conversation). If you are interested in background these
later essays are very interesting, and the early passages show what
the Silmarillion was *intended* to be, if it had been completed.
   For the masochistically inclined the "Lost Tales" series has much
real-world background and history. Beware, Tolkien's early work was
rather abysmal! The original form of the Silmarillion was far less
compelling and believable than it later became. It is only in the
Lays of Beleriand that you get back to the powerful writing of
Tolkien's later years. This is, mostly, the Lay of Luthien told in
full, or at least as far as it ever got(the end is missing). This is
probably what Aragorn meant when he said the ending is now lost and
that only Elrond remembered the whole of it. It is first rate epic
*poetry* of grand proportions. If you like Tolkien's poetry this is
well worth the money.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 86 0808-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #182
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 182

Today's Topics:

             Books - Busby & Lem (2 msgs) & McKiernan &
                     Recycling the Dead & Upcoming Books &
                     Funny SF,
             Films - Dragonslayer & Labyrinth (2 msgs) &
                     Big Trouble in Little China,
             Music - Robotech Soundtrack,
             Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 86 02:44:31 GMT
From: watdcsu!demo@caip.rutgers.edu (COURSE USE [DCS])
Subject: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen

Will someone please explain,preferably in words of no more than 4
syllables, what is happening with the RISSA series. Just when I
believed that I had finished the series with THE LONG VIEW out comes
some more seemingly from the viewpoint of Bran Tregare . Did I
merely miss some of the series or is this a rehashing of the same
material ( a neat way of doubling your income from the same amount
of plotting) . If possible please include a list of all the books in
the series (or associated with it if that is the case).

Thanks
Rick Attenborough
demo@watdcsu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 09:52:10 EDT
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Subject: I remember Solaris!  * Minor Spoiler *

People have written concerning Stanislaw Lem;

>>I've also found that much of his work has the peculiar effect of
>>leaving almost no memory trace in my mind.  Is it because of the
>>language?  I certainly enjoy his work.  I've never noticed this
>>before with any other author--not one that I've enjoyed this much,
>>anyway.  Any psychology students want to give an opinion?

>Have you read Solaris?

I really couldn't agree more with both postings. Lem's works also
have a way of being curiously absent from my memory, mere days after
reading them. So far I've read,

   Chain of Chance
   The Cyberiad
   Futuralogical  Congress
   The Star Diaries
   Memoirs Found in a Bathtub
   Solaris

Also one about the Pentagon Building, (The Building, maybe), I can't
even remember the titles of his books very well! In any event, the
one exception are certain chilling passages from Solaris. It's been
many years, and although I can't remember the detail all that well,
the emotions are still with me.

In particular, I remember a scene in which the main character's
ex-wife or girlfriend/duplicate, is trying to batter down the door
of an escape pod or ship of some sort. I also remember my skin
crawling. It wasn't a terror that Stephen (Ho Hum) King attempts to
inspire, but a kind of cold sweating strangness. I haven't re-read
it, and I haven't experienced it in any other Lem book.

Parts of Solaris, like much of Lem, drags on ad nauseum but it is
required reading for a Lem fan. There was a movie made of the book,
although I never saw it and I don't think it was widely distributed
in the U.S., it would have to be worth seeing if at all possible.
Does anyone know anything of its availability?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 21:49:00 GMT
From: silber@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Comments and Questions about Stanis

>Translator's nightmare?  I've been wondering: HOW DID THE
>TRANSLATOR (Michael Kandel in this case) MAKE ALL THOSE *PUNS* WORK
>IN _The_ _Futurological_Congress_??  I don't think puns generaly
>translate very well.  Anyone with more language experience out
>there care to comment?  I was impressed.

I have heard somewhere (NPR?)  That Lem deliberately writes so that
many of his puns are translatable, i.e., he writes for translation.
Also, I have heard that he works closely with his translators.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 00:07:00 GMT
From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: The Silver Call duology is now available...

As requested, I hereby announce that the "sequel" to The Iron Tower
trilogy, The Silver Call duology, is now available in hardback from
Doubleday:

Book 1:  Trek to Kraggen-cor
Book 2:  The Brega Path

Oh yeah, ignore what is written on the cover blurbs, it's not
accurate at all.

Dennis L. McKiernan

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 21:45:00 GMT
From: silber@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Recycling the dead (Heroes in Hell



franka@mmintl.UUCP writes:
>James B. VanBokkelen writes:
>>[...] the recycling of historic personalities.  When Farmer first
>>(?) did it in _Riverworld_
>
>Certainly not first.  R. A. Lafferty's _Past_Master_ antedates
>that, if nothing else.

Actually, there is a pair of late 19th century novels (I cannot
recall the name of the author) called "The House-Boat on the Styx"
and "The Pursuit of the House-Boat" in which various shades such as
Sir Walther Raleigh, Socrates, and Julius Ceaser get together and
form a Victorian style men's club on a houseboat in the Styx (with
Charon as the "janitor").  The ladies, Calpurnia, Helen of Troy, and
Queen Elizebeth, among others, take exception, and on the day that
the club is empty, they take it over.  Alas, captain Kidd and his
pirates abduct the houseboat and the ladies.  I haven't yet read
"Pursuit".

Ami Silberman

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 86 12:42:48 GMT
From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: Re: When will these books come out?

eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) writes:
>I am aware that Teckla is supposed to come out around December, and
>that Chanur's Homecoming is supposed to come out in January.  But
>can anyone tell me when the following books are likely to be
>available?

I attended the "Fourth Street Fantasy Convention" in June, and
bumped into Pamela Dean and Roger Zelazny; the following are what I
remember them saying.

>- The conclusion to Pamela Dean's The Secret Country (SKZB?)

"Any moment now".  "The Secret Country" was written as one
very-large book which was split into halves by the publisher.  The
publisher should be releasing volume 2 momentarily.

>- The next part of Roger Zelazny's new Amber series (titled
>  Ghostwheel?)

"This fall".

>I can be patient, but I like to know for how long...

Me, too.  Now if only Joyce Ballou Gregorian would write part three
of "The Broken Citadel"...

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  4 Jul 1986 13:44:10-PDT
From: mccutchen%pennsy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN
From: 289-1428)
Subject: Funny SF.

I believe the funniest I have read is "When They Came From Space".
Published Late 50's early 60's. I can't recall the author and my
copy is packed.

Terry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 86 08:19 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Labyrinth (non-spoiler)

From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry)
>There have been so many fantasy movies released in the last few
>years -- and most have left me unsatisfied.  Many had wonderful
>special effects and sets, but truly dreadful plots and
>scriptwriting (Legend, The Sword and the Sorceror); some had
>atrocious acting (Beastmaster); two came close to being great
>movies, but had five-minute climaxes which the director had chosen
>to stretch to twenty (The Dark Crystal, Ladyhawke.)  Candidly, I'd
>just about given up hope.
>
>Then I saw "Labyrinth".

Just to point out one film you didn't mention, on the highly
unlikely probability you haven't seen it yet.  Dragonslayer is such
a superior effort that I find it hard to believe it came from the
same industry as the dreck you mention.  As Roger Ebert once pointed
out, "If the Middle Ages didn't look like this, they should have."
They avoided the stupidity of Ladyhawke by actually having a
surprise ending that WAS a surprise.  (They also avoided an
ultra-modern soundtrack for something more atmospheric.  Hearing
synthesizers in a film about the Middle Ages makes my teeth ache.)
And Sir Ralph Richardson shows you what character acting is all
about.  Highly recommended.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Jul 86 20:24:18-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Labyrinth

I was surprised at the two glowing reviews of Labyrinth.  I myself
had VERY mixed feelings about the movie.  I WANTED to like it a lot,
but there were problems.  For one thing, it seemed incredibly
schizophrenic:
  a kiddie/muppet movie
  a dark fantasy
  a serious coming of age type movie
  a quite humorous Monty Python movie (it was written by Terry Jones)
  & (ugh) an MTV video movie.
Plus some other genres I'm probably not remembering.

Now I don't claim it's impossible to mix genres or anything, but in
this case it seems to be going overboard, and I didn't think it
worked.  Some scenes were incredible (I was especially struck by the
masquerade ball as well -- it was quite fantastic) but other scenes
(like the dancing muppets singing the rock song around the fire)
were painfully bad.

Also, I wasn't sure how appropriate a movie it was for kids.  I was
seated right in front of a child who seemed upset at some scenes
such as

** mild spoiler **

the fairies getting sprayed with insecticide and crying out as they
fall to earth, or the girl (Jennifer Connelly is her name, I
believe) coming upon Hoggle the dwarf as he's pissing into a pond.
Not to mention that Little Toby gets some pretty rough treatment, if
you think about it: a little 2-year-old (or however old he is, I
can't tell baby's ages) getting screamed at by ugly goblins...

** end spoiler **

anyway, I got the impression there were some scenes parents in the
audience wished weren't there.  But I don't know, I'm no child
psychologist.

The main point is just that although I was REALLY impressed with
parts of the movie, overall I was frustrated and disappointed by it.

Does anyone feel as I do, or am being overly harsh?

Also, is anyone else sick of MTV style music slapped onto movies?
E.g., Sweet Liberty was great except for the absurdly out of place
Patti Labelle music slapped on in the middle and the end.  (I'm not
anti-rock or anything; I like David Bowie, but didn't think the
songs in Labyrinth were appropriate, except the theme song.)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jul 86 00:59:56 PDT
From: lah%miro@berkeley.edu (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: That shoddy effect in "Labyrinth"...

Unless I'm much mistaken, that was just one more of Henson's pulling
out all the puppeteering stops for this film.  I've seen similar
stuff in specials on puppetry, including by Henson himself.

What it is: bunraku, one of the oldest forms of puppetry in the
world, invented in Japan where bunraku shows often told stories that
appeared also in Noh or more often Kabuki theatre.  Traditionally,
this is done against a black background, by puppeteers wearing
black.  Evidently, Henson did it agains a blue background with
blue-clad puppeteers, in order to use the "blue-screen" effect.  I
grant you, it was one of the less skillful effects, but the fire
elementals were so charming I let it pass.

In fact, the only thing I found off-putting about the film was
Bowie's singing.  Don't get me wrong, he's great as Bowie, but as
the Goblin King he seemed somewhat out of character.  Perhaps they
put the songs in to keep him happy?  Or maybe to make the movie more
"Muppet Show" like?  In any case, they were a bit distracting,
except for the last number, in the Escher room (where the words
actually had something to do with what was going on.  Well, the
masquerade was good too, come to think of it.  The one that was
definitely out of place was his first number with the goblins and
the baby).

I loved the crystal ball manipulations!  Now if only I can get my
stage- magician friend to teach me how...

I'm hard pressed, though to say I liked this one better than "Dark
Crystal".  It lacks the pre-film-time background richness (I loved
the book on the world and the mythology of DC) but compensates in
little details as was mentioned in a previous posting.  It is funny,
but somehow less magical than DC.  I think I like them equally well,
for different reasons, and I like them both VERY much.

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 86 09:52 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Big Trouble in Little China

                    Big Trouble in Little China

Despite the foolish looking commercials, this film is a thriller!  I
loved it.  It keeps up the tone set by Indiana Jones in Raiders;
that there are things going on that we don't understand, but, as
Jack (Kurt Russel) Burton says, "What the hell, let's go."

Mild spoilers follow:

The flick is set in San Francisco's Chinatown.  Jack Burton is a
truck driver who just pulled in and is visiting his Chinese friend
Wang (or something roughly approximating that).  They go to pick up
Wang's fiance at the airport where she gets lifted by the local
Chinese gang.  Jack stands up to them and gets knocked down.  He's
that way.  Full of spirit, but faulty with his fists.  Wang does
most of the heroic fighting, which is excellent!

Anyhow, they track the gang and the girl to Lo Pan (how do us
honkies learn to spell this stuff?), the local importer and 2000
year old demon.  He wants to use her in a ceremony to regain his
youth and humanity.

The fun starts when our heroes stumble into a fight between two
gangs.  Things are going wild as the kung fu action covers the
alley.  This is where the weird stuff starts as the three Storms
appear out of the sky.  Thunder and Wind slowly drop to the ground
as the fighting stops and everyone stares.  Lightning crashes and
strikes the ground, dancing and twisting with a blue spark as the
third Storm rides down the bolt to land next to the other two.
Together, they clean up both gangs.  Thus we are introduced to The
Heavys.

The action is non-stop, the mood is humorous, the monsters are real
(and damn ugly!), the girls are beautiful, the bad guys are tough,
the guns are few, the kung fu is fast and furious.  Magic is
plentiful and so is plain old guts.  Heck, they even have the
batpole.

This movie is great.  John Carpenter has made another hit.  Kurt
does an excellent job as the macho truck driver who is too stubborn
to quit, Kim Catrell does a marvelous job as the information source,
spunky fighter, love interest, captured heroine, and girl who gets
tons of lipstick on Kurt's face just before he faces off the bad guy
(boy, does he look foolish!).

Four stars.  Check this one out twice!

Pardon me for the weird review, but if you see the flick you will
understand that there is just too much stuff going on to even begin
to describe it except as a play by play.  Go see it instead.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 86 19:21:18 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: macross Soundtrack??

Does anyone know where I might find a copy of the soundtrack to
Macross or to Minmei's songs. Macross is the first segment of
Robotech.  I am looking for the Japanese albums.  Of course if there
was an album made from Ulpio Minucci's Robotech music, I would be
interested in that too.

Any help would be appreciated.  I tried STAR (Sound trac Album
Retailers) but they said they had it 2 years ago but can't get it
anymore.  Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Stephen Pearl

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 11:23:12 GMT
From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Missing Star Trek episodes? (I am.)



   'Miri' was shown once and then banned by the BBC.
   The three other episodes that were banned and never shown are:

   'The Empath' (very good)
   'Whom Gods Destroy' (ok ish)
   'Platos Stepchildren' (good but silly in places).

   Apparently the BBC will never 'un-ban' these episodes.
   Some that should have been banned for entertainment reasons are
[insert your least favourite episode here],Spocks Brain et al.

Andy T.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 86 0840-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #183
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 183

Today's Topics:

                          Books - Wilson,
                          Films - Books into Movies,
                          Television - Max Headroom,
                          Miscellaneous - Fanzines &
                                  Nanotechnology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  4 Jul 1986 12:25:20-PDT
From: mccutchen%pennsy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN
From: 289-1428)
Subject: F. Paul Wilson

   F. Paul Wilson has at least two "Horror" novels out. They are
"The Keep" and "The Tomb". Tomb takes place in New York, involves an
Indian (as in Visnu) monster and a "Fixer" (quite an interesting
character). Keep takes place in Central Europe (Romania?) durring
WWII and involves a group of German soldiers occupying a "keep" along
with two ancient "Powers".

   I rather like both books.

BTW, L. Neil Smith and F. Paul Wilson seem to have similar political
views. Could someone comment on this?

Terry McCutchen

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 86 15:46:17 GMT
From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Books into movies

   1. World of Ptavvs   Larry Niven
   2. The Stars My Destination   Alfred Bester
   3. Stardance   Spider & Jeanne Robinson
   4. Inferno   Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
   5. Re-Birth  John Wyndham
   6. Brain Wave   Poul Anderson
   7. The Stars are the Styx  Ted Sturgeon
   8. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
      Stephen R. Donaldson (All 6 books -- but it would be about 14
      hours long)
   9. Gulf  Robert A. Heinlein
   10. Lost Legacy   Robert A. Heinlein
   11. Almost anything by Roger Zelazny

  Some of these would need special effects that would pale Star
Wars. Others (Gulf, Re-Birth) would be much easier. If they were
going to make "The Stars My Destination" they would have to follow
the book WORD FOR WORD or else!

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
{kontron|crash|sdcsvax!sdcc3|gould9}!loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 86 02:31:43 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

  The Max Headroom I have seen is a man in a prosthetic face
appliance on a computer generated background.

  Max was shown on Cinemax as the host of a few shows (I think these
are the films you are talking of), and as the vj for MaxTrax
(Cinemax' video showcase).  And now he is making Coke commercials. I
guess that is truly American fame.

Cathy Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 86 06:21:57 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Request For Fanzine Recommendations

Can anyone recommend some good fiction-oriented (as opposed to news-
or review-oriented) SF fanzines?  My personal taste is for hard SF
(all varieties: from Heinlein to Forward to Gibson), but I enjoy
stories from any SF/fantasy genre when done well.

I would prefer to hear about fanzines that are published
semi-regularly, although I realize that most fanzines have
difficulty keeping to a schedule.  (A fanzine that accepted one of
my stories is still working on an issue that was originally
scheduled to be published in April of 1984...)

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 86 16:54:16 GMT
From: tower@mit-prep.ARPA (Leonard H. Tower Jr.)
Subject: "Engines of Creation" and Nanontechnology

I have just finished reading "Engines of Creation" by K. Eric
Drexler, published by Doubleday, New York, June, 1986.

Drexler examines, from an engineering viewpoint, the likely advances
that nanotechnology will bring in the next several decades.
Nanotechnology is engineering on the molecular level with precise
control of molecular structure.  I have appended an introductory
article written by the Nanotechnology Study Group at MIT, which
briefly explains the technology and some of it's implications.

"Engines of Creation" covers the topic with greater length and
depth, as well as looking at the likely social implications and ways
to control the uses to which the technology will be put.  One of the
more interesting is the use of Science Courts to resolve the facts
and unknowns in a technological disagreement between experts.

Good Reading, Len

Nanotechnology: A Key Advance

     Foreseeable technological advances will enable us to build
devices to complex, atomic specifications.  This will make possible
a nanotechnology that includes both nanomachines and
nanoelectronics.  As microtechnology involves micrometer-scale
devices, so nanotechnology will involve nanometer-scale devices.
These advances will change macroscopic technology as well, because
all technology rests ultimately on our ability to arrange atoms to
make hardware.

     The prospect of nanotechnology forces a reevaluation of our
expectations regarding the next several decades.  New dangers make
foresight vitally important.  This paper outlines some basic facts
regarding the nature and consequences of nanotechnology.  It is
condensed, containing more assertions than explanations--its goal is
not to provide a thorough technical discussion, but merely to
describe a set of facts and make them plausible to readers with
broad technical literacy.

The Technology

      Nanotechnology is synonymous with advanced molecular
technology.  It includes molecular electronics and the so-called
biochip.  It may be seen as the culmination of progress in many
fields.

      Microelectronic engineers construct ever-smaller devices, some
only a thousand atoms wide.  Chemists know a great deal about
molecules, and they regularly design and build small molecular
structures.  Progress in both synthetic chemistry and
microelectronics leads toward the construction of complex structures
to atomic precision--that is, toward nanotechnology.  Biologists
study the molecular machinery of life; nanotechnology will provide
them with greatly improved molecular tools and instruments.  Through
the molecular tools of pharmacology, physicians influence the
molecular machinery of life.  Nanotechnology will again provide
tools of dramatically greater ability.

      Researchers in these fields are laying the foundations for
nanotechnology.  Biochemists are learning to design ever-larger
molecular systems, and groups in Japan, at the U.S. Naval Research
Laboratory, and elsewhere are pursuing work in molecular
electronics.

      We can already see much of what this work will make possible,
because physicists, chemists, and biochemists understand the laws
that govern molecular systems.  The behavior of these systems is
often amenable to computer simulation, using ordinary mechanics to
describe molecular motions and quantum mechanics to describe
molecular bonding.  The challenge of nanotechnology is one of
developing better physical and computational tools, not of
developing new fundamental science.

      Nanomachines will be the key to nanotechnology.  Because
molecules are objects with size, shape, mass, and stiffness, they
can serve as moving parts in nanomachines.  Well-known biochemical
systems--the rotary flagellar motor that propels bacteria, the
actin-myosin system that powers muscle, and so forth--show that
molecular machines exist and function.  They prove (and calculations
confirm) that thermal noise and quantum-mechanical effects do not
prohibit machines with molecular-scale moving parts.

      Molecular machines can build molecular machines.  Enzymes
direct the swift assembly and disassembly of molecular structures.
Ribosomes act as numerically-controlled machine tools, assembling
molecular devices (in this case, protein molecules) under programmed
control.  They demonstrate that nanomachines can build specific
molecular structures by bringing reactive molecules together in the
right orientations and surroundings.  Genetic engineers use DNA to
program bacterial ribosomes to build natural (but foreign) proteins.
The design of novel proteins is an active area of research.
Eventually, we will learn to build proteins that, like those in the
cell, perform a wide range of chemical and mechanical functions.  We
will then be able to build ribosome-like protein machines which will
in turn enable us to build non-protein machines.  Protein
engineering thus offers one path to nanotechnology.  Physicist
Richard Feynman outlined an alternative path as early as 1959.

      By one path or another, we will eventually develop tools that
enable us to assemble complex structures to atomic specifications.
Such tools are called _molecular assemblers_, or simply
_assemblers_.  The development of assemblers will constitute a key
breakthrough in technology.

Some Applications

      Comparisons to known physical systems and straightforward
design calculations indicate the feasibility of the following:

Replicators:
      Assemblers, if supplied with materials and energy, will be
able to build almost anything--including more assemblers and more
systems for providing them with materials and energy.  Cells
demonstrate that systems of molecular machinery can replicate
themselves.  Replicating assemblers will be as cheap as bacteria.
Single cells proliferate and cooperate to build redwoods and blue
whales; properly programmed replicators will likewise be able to
build large systems.

Nanocomputers:
      If built with molecular components, the equivalent of a modern
microprocessor will fit in roughly 1/1000 of a cubic micron.
Megabytes of fast RAM and gigabytes of tape-like storage with
sub-millisecond access times will fit within a cubic micron.  The
small size and low power dissipation of nanocomputers will make
possible machines with massively parallel architectures.

Cell repair machines:
      Molecular machines in cells sense, make, rearrange, and
destroy cellular structures.  During cell division, they build whole
new cells.  Advanced nanomachines will be able to do likewise.
Since typical human cells have a volume of roughly 1,000 cubic
microns, they hold room enough for cell repair machines directed by
on-site nanocomputers and wielding an extensive set of
molecular-scale sensors and tools.  Cell repair machines will bring
surgical control to the molecular scale, enabling physicians to
repair tissues that are unable to repair themselves, and to reverse
the molecular disorders that cause aging.  Replicators will make
cell repair machines inexpensive.

Superstuff:
      The performance of systems depends on the pattern of atoms
composing them.  Assembler-built composites based on diamond fiber
will have tens of times the strength-to-mass ratio of present
structural metals, and excellent fracture toughness as well.
Assembler-built screens, made from nearly-microscopic lens arrays,
will display high-resolution, full-color, three-dimensional imagery.
Assembler-built batteries with finely interleaved electrodes will
have very low internal resistance and high power-to-mass ratios.
This list could be extended almost indefinitely: assembler-built
materials, components, and systems will advance virtually all fields
of technology, making possible improved chairs, cars, spacecraft,
and so forth.

Superweapons:
      Superior hardware will have superior military potential.
Replicating assemblers will permit swift construction of such
hardware.  Programmable replicators will make possible a more
controlled and practical (and hence more threatening) form of "germ"
warfare.  This list, too, could be extended.

Our Situation

      These prospects raise certain questions about nanotechnology
and its effect on our future:

Is nanotechnology good or bad?
      Nanotechnology raises obvious issues of life and death.
Replicating assemblers will enable us to create material wealth of
unprecedented quality and quantity; in much of the world, this is a
life-and-death matter.  More directly, cell repair machines will
enable medicine to create and maintain health.  Yet through the same
capabilities that make these benefits possible, nanotechnology will
also make possible new forms of warfare and oppression.

Could it be stopped?
      Advances in fields as diverse as medicine, weaponry, and
chemistry will (intentionally or not) move us along the path to
nanotechnology.  Military motivations will be strong, and the
verification of limits on research will be virtually impossible.  In
a world of competing technological states, local actions and local
laws cannot stop such a technology.  In the absence of means for
verification, international treaties likewise offer little hope.
Thus, regardless of the balance of its benefits and risks,
nanotechnology seems virtually inevitable.  We can only guide
advances, not stop them.

When will it arrive?
      Present physical knowledge enables us to foresee some of what
nanotechnology will (and will not) be able to accomplish, but
estimates of when nanotechnology will arrive are far more
speculative.  Such estimates must reflect the possibility both of
unanticipated shortcuts and of unanticipated delays.  They must take
account of obvious synergies, such as the application of
expert-systems technology to computer-aided design, and the
application of both to molecular engineering.  Further, they must
take account of research trends such as the commencement of
``full-scale research efforts'' on molecular electronics by NEC,
Hitachi, Toshiba, Matsushita, Fujitsu, Sanyo-Denko, and Sharp.
Finally, military interest in nanotechnology seems likely to
eventually spawn an effort as urgent as the Manhattan Project.
      In light of these considerations, a plausible guess for the
arrival date of molecular assemblers is twenty years, plus or minus
ten.  For some purposes (e.g., planning for medical care) it is
safest to assume that nanotechnology will develop slowly.  For other
purposes (e.g. preparing for dangers) it is safest to assume that it
will develop swiftly.

What is to be done?
      The prospect of nanotechnology raises a host of policy
questions.  Depending on the preparations we make, nanotechnology
could bring either great benefits or a final disaster.  Because
nanotechnology will build on known principles of science and
engineering, a measure of foresight seems possible.  Because
advances in nanotechnology seem easier to steer than to stop, a
measure of foresight seems necessary.

The study of nanotechnology crosses disciplinary boundaries.  To
judge the possibilities requires engineering thought guided by
knowledge in such fields as physics, chemistry, biology, and
materials science.  The basic technical facts in turn raise issues
of social, political, and strategic importance.  It seems that past
expectations must be revised, perhaps drastically.  We need to know
more about nanotechnology and its implications, and we need to have
that knowledge spread widely.  The growth of knowledge is best
served by critical discussion and by presentation of the results.

Further Reading:

Richard Feynman, ``There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom.'' In
Miniaturization, H. D. Gilbert, ed.  Reinhold, New York, pp 282-296
(1961).

K. Eric Drexler, ``Molecular Engineering: an approach to the
development of general capabilities for molecular manipulation.''
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 78:5275-5278
(September 1981).

Molecular Electronic Devices, Forrest L. Carter, ed.  Marcel Dekker,
New York (1982).

K. Eric Drexler, ``When molecules will do the work.''  Smithsonian,
pp 145-155 (November 1982).

Kevin Ulmer, ``Protein Engineering.''  Science, 219:666-671 (11
February 1983).

Jonathan B.  Tucker, ``Biochips: can molecules compute?''  High
Technology, pp 36-47 (February 1984).

K. Eric Drexler, ``Engines of Creation.''  Doubleday, New York,
June, 1986.

Len Tower
UUCP:       {}!mit-eddie!mit-prep!tower
INTERNET:   tower@prep.ai.mit.edu
ORGANIZATION: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation,
   1000 Mass. Ave., Cambridge, MA  02138, USA +1 (617) 876-3296
HOME: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA  02143, USA
+1 (617) 623-7739

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 86 0845-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #184
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 184

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Gibson (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jul 86 02:08:04 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <seismo!mcvax!aiva.ed.ac.uk!jeff@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Neuromantic in NME
Cc: aiva.ed.ac.uk!rhr@topaz.rutgers.edu,
Cc:         aiva.ed.ac.uk!richard@topaz.rutgers.edu

There's an article on William Gibson in the 5 July 1986 NME (New
Musical Express).  I'll give some of the Gibson quotes and leave out
most (all?) the NME bits.

"I'm not interested in creating universes that are born out of a
sort of gaming process whereby you take the world as it exists today
and make a future and say THIS IS TRULY PROBABLE... I approach the
thing as being a wonderful way to synthesise images out of pop
culture that would turn me on.  I try to keep the rest germane to
what science fiction has *purported* to be about, but mainly I'm
interested in images, and having some kind of rationale for having
them running around.

"I come from a very tiny town, a backwater called Wytheville,
Virginia.  It's like *nowhere*, 2000 people and nothing to go on.
So my initial experience of Los Angeles, which I visited when I was
16, was like going to another planet.  I went into benevolent
culture shock [...] but it left me with the feeling that I wasn't
able to absorb it or digest it: I was suffering from information
sickness. [...]  As I got older I realized that a lot of people
around me were suffering from that constantly, so science fiction
becomes a nice way out into a simpler world and you can tell
yourself that it's something that might really happen.  So what I've
consciously tried to do is present the aspects of the present that I
find disturbing in a context that allows the reader to look at them
without being frightened.  [...] If reality is getting too
frightening, then read this bit of science fiction, and if it's a
good bit of science fiction then it will give you a handle on the
reality you're actually living in."

[...]

"Neuromancer is going to be translated in Japan this year [...] that
will be the most *bizarre* experience since I cobbled the thing up
from whole cloth as in fact I did the whole novel.

"All of those street names in Chiba City are from a Japan Air Lines
calendar which someone had given me for Christmas which had bits of
pottery on it for each month, so I take the name of a particular
pottery period and make that a street name.  For a Japanese reader
it'll be like 'they ran down Chippendale Street and into Tudor
Square...'

"It really delights me when people accept that as a detailed
extrapolation of the future of Japan.  Writing books like that is
like if you want to show a butcher's shop you put a fish *here* and
a crumpled piece of brown paper *there*.  You don't *build* the
butcher's shop: that would be too literal.  The reader provides the
links."

[...]

"It's only about three weeks ago that I first physically touched a
computer.  Both my books were written on ancient manual typewriters:
I've never even used an electric typewriter.  I thought computers
were going to be a lot sexier than they actually turned out to be.
If I'd had one and known about disk drives I might never have
written Neuromancer.  I bought this little Apple and took it home
and I thought I was going to have this pristine technological
artifact, but I pressed the button and it made this noise like a
farting toaster.  I realized that it had this Victorian element in
it that my imagination had never had to come to terms with.  It made
it less ominous and more cuddly because you knew its little drive
could break; it's like a tape recorder.

"In fact, it did break: the *head* *crashed*.  If I had known that
phrase it would've been in Neuromancer.  I was able to do it because
I thought the language was so lovely; there's real poetry to
computer language, and it suggested things to me, so I treated it as
poetry and expanded it.  But I did show it to computer people before
it was published, and there were a few things that had to be changed
for reasons that I still don't understand.  It'd probably be better
for me commercially if I went around pretending to be a super
computer buff.  That part of it actually amazed me more than winning
the prizes or the books selling well: that the computer people were
completely taken in..."

[end of extracts]

Rather strange, in some ways.  Creating a *butcher's* shop by
putting *fish* around, and a good translator could always fix the
quaint street names -- go for the right effect, if that's what's
needed.  (I've always wondered about Stanislaw Lem's translators.
Hard to believe the Cyberiad poem where every word must begin with
"S", &c ("... she scissored short...") had the same constraints in
Polish.)

And, well, computer people, are we taken in?

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 09:35:14 GMT
From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Cyberspace

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
>All I'm saying is that I'm not sure that cyberspace *would* look
>like that.  I think it would be stranger, but all I really have is
>questions, not answers.
>
>Think about moving through a visual representation of a computer
>network.  Would it be Euclidean 3-space or would it have other
>properties?

Given that we tend to think in terms of three-dimensional space, it
would feed it to us in what we are most familiar with.

>Would it be possible for it the be Euclidean 3-space?  How quickly
>could you change your point of view?

It would probably be very similar to how you perceive things today,
much like going through the business district of San Francisco in a
convertible: these neat, glowing structures towering around you,
though more scattered than a business district.  (Unless there were
several machines per exchange in the telephone service.)

>How quickly would the network change?  (Remember that computers are
>much faster than humans at some things...)

Well, every time someone put a new machine on, a new structure would
appear.  (Does this remind anyone of Marion Zimmer Bradley's
"overworld"?)  If you make your computer bigger, then the
representation would be larger.  If it was all under the same
security system, it would appear to be behind the same wall.  If
they all belong to the same company, they would be the same colour
(as identification to us, perhaps some sort of "writing" in there).

>What would breaking into a database with the aid of an "icebreaker"
>look like?

Probably like dissolving a wall.  You would have some sort of path
representing where you plugged in (I don't agree with finding
yourself in the same place starting no matter where you plug in- it
would be more like appearing within your own telephone exchange),
leading to you, perhaps masked in case you're worried about tracing;
your representation of self, perhaps a disembodied viewpoint,
perhaps a pair of glowing gloves hovering over a duplicate of your
deck (in case you haven't got it memorised); then proximity to the
database represented by distance, and the wall itself opening up to
let you into the information system.

>In Neuromancer, what does moving up mean?  Does it make sense to
>organize things that way?

Moving up, I suppose, means getting closer to something.  I can't
remember the specific context, but I would guess it's what you do to
move around in the matrix.

Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 22:08:18 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Cyberspace

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
>>Think about moving through a visual representation of a computer
>>network.  Would it be Euclidean 3-space or would it have other
>>properties?  Would it be possible for it the be Euclidean 3-space?
>>... Does it make sense to organize things that way?
>
>   I think it *does* make sense to organize things in that way,
>because I think that is the only representation that the human
>brain is able to handle.

Not really.  The brain develops certain areas to help process visual
info but if the optic nerve is inoperative (as with some blind
people) those centers don't develop the same way.

Ideally, a cyberspace would be presented through a customizer-input.
The incoming information would be routed to whatever sensory package
the operator had trained and adapted to that form of input.  Clearly
in the Neuromantic world the medical technology is capable of
handling at least partial optic nerve damage, and is capable of
direct-brain stimulus.  So, there is no reason why they shouldn't
develop an entirely new sensory package to handle cyber-inputs.  How
Gibson chooses to translate this into his writing, well, that will
doubtless be limited to the senses his audience is likely to have.
So we don't get discussions of the hot, musty taste of blue Ice, or
the swimming vertigo of crossing net-nodes, nor the sticky, sour
sensation of moving across an encoded channel.

>"Would it be possible for it to be anything else?"  How can you
>present visual information to the brain so that it is *not*
>representing a 3-D space?  I don't even think it is possible.

Um, yes, it is possible; I am doing so right now.  This CRT is not a
3-space and you are discarding all but a trace of the 3-d info that
you are getting from the background as you read.  Also, unless
trained at an early age, the brain won't interpret photos, drawings,
and so forth, as 2-d renderings of 3-space objects.  It will see
strange, blotchy patterns.  This was demonstrated with Kalahari
Bushmen in the 60's.

Further, if you WANT to eliminate 3-d info, eliminate (cover) one
eye.  Focal information isn't normally enough to discern how far
away something is and without the convergence (inward turning of the
eyes to focus) info from the other eye the focal distance info is
too weak to tell.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 86 16:58:43 GMT
From: ihuxp!chrz@caip.rutgers.edu (Chrzanowski)
Subject: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

howard@utastro.UUCP (Howard Coleman) writes:
> well, do we fault H. G. Wells because the Apollo astronauts were
> not shot from a cannon?  No, we praise him for getting the general
> idea correct; we recognize that he had no way of even guessing at
> the technological details!

My impression was that Gibson does make a (largely) successful
effort at being plausible.  I think it was Jules Verne who shot his
astronauts from a cannon -- something that was clearly not plausible
at the time the story was written (the length of the gun tube was
specified, and the acceleration would have turned the astros into
blood jelly).  I tend to interpret lack of plausibility as an
author's lack of respect for the reader's intelligence, and quit the
book/movie/TV show immediately.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 86 16:20:58 PDT (Sunday)
From: WLindstrom.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Cyberspace
Cc: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU

>   I think it *does* make sense to organize things in that way,
>because I think that is the only representation that the human
>brain is able to handle.  Assuming that you are feeding in
>information in a way that the brain is to interpret as "visual"
>information (leaving aside for the moment the question of how this
>is done), you have to face the fact that the brain is set up to
>analyze that visual information as an image of a 3-D space.
>   You say, "Would it be possible for it to be Euclidean 3-space?"
>I say, "Would it be possible for it to be anything else?"  How can
>you present visual information to the brain so that it is *not*
>representing a 3-D space?  I don't even think it is possible.

  Why limit yourself to 3-space?  The brain seems like an awfully
flexible processor. It's visual input has always been stereo, 2D
images of (what appears to be) a 3D world, but do you think that,
given higher dimensional images of a high dimentional world as
input, the brain would be unable to learn to process this new input?
I think that it would be able to adapt.

  I speculate that it would be *easier* for the brain to manipulate
information as abstracted 3-D objects, but perhaps it would be more
*useful* to manipulate information as abstracted higher-D objects,
and the price of learning this new skill would be worthwhile.

William Lindstrom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 86 14:01:24 PDT
From: stever@vlsi.caltech.edu (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Dimension of Cyberspace

Um, I think that visual information is in the form of a 2-D
perspective projection of 3-D information.  The way people get depth
cues is by moving the head and noticing that near things slide with
respect to far things.  (stereo only works up to a few feet).  The
brain is NOT set up to process 3-D information directly.  Processing
3-D information directly requires an advanced degree in physics.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 86 16:18:22 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Do you believe in cyberspace ?

Thanks very much for replying! Indeed I do make the assertion that
speech has some inherent advantage that makes up for 'its low
bandwidth' - speech actually has a rather high bandwidth. If you use
an algorithm to compress speech you can lose almost all of its
information content. There is a lot more to speech that its
'dictionary' content. This extra information (rhythm, inter word
pauses, tonal content etc., would not be understood by a machine (at
least with current technology). In fact I would say that the
'literal' content of speech is its least informative bit (and is
actually misleading sometimes). Even written text enjoys some of
these factors - careful use of English can greatly alter vary the
meaning between two apparently similar sentences. Of course I'm
actually agreeing with you that it would be difficult at best to
control a device with speech! I just read 'Neuromancer' over the
weekend - not bad - and I like the idea of cyberspace. Who cares if
it's feasible or not, it's a great idea and this IS SF! I don't at
all reject the notion of analog computer interfaces - sorry if I
sounded as if I did.

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 86 14:53:16 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Dimension of Cyberspace

From: stever@vlsi.caltech.edu (Steve Rabin  )
>Um, I think that visual information is in the form of a 2-D
>perspective projection of 3-D information.  The way people get
>depth cues is by moving the head and noticing that near things
>slide with respect to far things.  (stereo only works up to a few
>feet).  The brain is NOT set up to process 3-D information
>directly.  Processing 3-D information directly requires an advanced
>degree in physics.

Oh, don't let's be silly, okay?  We all process in 3-D and we do it
all the time, without needing to use head-motion or convergence
cues.  Sitting here at my terminal, I close my eyes.  I unerringly
reach for my coffee cup, take a sip, put it back; I reach with my
left hand to adjust the volume on my walkman-clone.  And it isn't
just remembered visual cues because people who are blind from birth
handle that sort of thing just find -- probably better than I.

In fact, I question whether even 3-space is a limit: in Davis &
Hersch's book *The Mathematical Experience,* they describe using the
4-D display thing at Brown.  It displays a 2-D projection of a 3-D
slice of a 4-space cube.  After they had played around with it for a
while, they suddenly "grasped" 4-space, and developed a sort of 4-D
"intuition" similar to our common 3-D.  My suspicion is that we can
handle any kind of model once we learn to use the model.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 86 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #185
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 185

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jul 86 23:54:17 -0300
From: Thomas Ungar  <thomas%taurus.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Of Rings

Even if there is a 21th Ring, as some people in this newsgroup
imply, this is the Ring worn by Frodo, since the two lines written
on it (cf. Shadows of the Past in LoTR #1) are the "One Ring to Rule
Them All".

Thus, if there were a master Ring and a meta-master Ring, the Ring
worn by Frodo is the meta-master Ring.

Ady Wiernik
ady@taurus.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 14:19:40 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Rings AGAIN?!

leonard@tekecs.UUCP (Leonard Botleman) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>Celebrimbor was powerful, but not that much so, I think.  Remember
>>that he was only and Elf; Sauron is a Maia.
>
>Yes, but remember that Celebrimbor's grandfather, Feanor, was "only
>an Elf", and yet he made the Silmarils and the Pilantiri, which
>were, as Gandalf said, beyond the skill of Sauron to make.

   I think that the relationship between capabilities and Intrinsic
Nature in the magic of Middle Earth shows up here. Since magic flows
from the soul, what can be done by any entity is determined by its
inner nature. Feanor had within his soul a fierce creative fire
enabling him to make many things, with the help of the Valar.
Certainly the light of the Silmarilli came from the work of the
Valar in the making of the Two Trees, Feanor "only" captured it in
crystal. Sauron, being who he is, interested mainly in domination,
can not create, only control. This does not make Feanor more
powerful than Sauron, only different.


Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 14:24:23 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR

pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes:
>It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters
>or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice between
>Good and Evil.
>
>The missing group is the Orcs.
>
>Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil?
>It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to
>repent, or even to choose.

   Perhaps it is because they have already chosen! Since Orcs are
most likely corrupted Elves, one could say that in allowing
themselves to become so ensnared they had made thier choice. But
what of those born/spawned later, after the original corruption? I
do not know, perhaps they, like the Elves they are derived from, are
reincarnated.  Perhaps some of them are even the reincarnation of
Elves who fell under Morgoths domination after the original
corruption of the Orcs.
        Of course this is all just speculation. Anyone else care to
comment?

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 14:51:21 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>I definitely misremembered the sequence of the creation of the
>Rings.  Your revised sequence is a lot closer.  A minor point I
>might debate is that it appears the idea of Rings originated with
>"Annatar", proposed as a means of making Eriador as great as
>Beleriand had been, and suggesting that Gil-Galad and Elrond would
>not talk to him because they didn't rivals to the glories of their
>lands.  It seems the idea of being able to build and preserve that
>which they loved as sufficient bait for them.

   I believe that the Elves had already started to work at making
magic rings *before* Sauron came to them, but these were the
so-called lesser rings, *not* the Rings of Power. I certainly agree
that it was only with Sauron's help and connivance that they were
able to make the Rings of Power, and the idea for such rings
probably did originate with Sauron. Of the Rings of Power only the
Three, and *perhaps* *one* of the Seven, were free from Sauron's
touch.

>Silmarillion states that when the Elves learned of Sauron's
>betrayal and rejected him, in his anger at the failure of his
>scheme (the hoped-for conquest of the all the Elven rings), he came
>in force and demanded the Rings, saying they would never have been
>forged but for him.  Though the Three were hidden, eventually he
>was able to seize all the others.

   Ah, yes, I had forgotten that! He got the 16(or 15) other Rings
of Power *after* he made the One by force of conquest! That explains
alot.

>Whether from anybody else's viewpoint they were partially
>successful, Sauron had intended them as "hooks", to enslave the
>Dwarves, which they didn't do at all.  It was for this reason that
>he wanted to recall all of them (I read this explicitly somewhere,
>but I just can't remember where right now -- possibly one of LotR's
>appendices).

   Oh, I agree, they did not do what he really wanted them to do.
He certainly was very upset about the whole matter. I was just
trying to point out that they may have had more effect than many
readers assume.

>As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, to
>one degree or another.  They never had, for instance, the immediate
>friendship that arose between Men and Elves.  Their languages and
>customs were kept very much to themselves.  But it seems to me
>that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the Rings
>couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation with the
>Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never have
>occurred.

   Mind you, this was largely *before* and during the forging of the
Rings! Certainly it was before the distribution of the Seven to the
Dwarves. By the time the Seven were well established the friendship
between Khazad-Dum and Eregion was long past. It had altered to the
deep suspicion seen between the Elves of Lorien and the Dwarves,
even the Dwarves of the House of Durin, as seen in the LotR. In
fact, in the light of this friendship between the House of Durin and
the Mirdain during the forging of the Rings, it is interesting to
note the tradition that the Ring of Durin was given to them by the
Elves *not* Sauron!

>Sauron was *not* completely successful in recalling the Seven: he
>wanted them all back, not just out of the Dwarves' hands.  I read,
>though I can't remember where, that he recovered three of them.
>The others were consumed by dragons, including the great Ancalagon
>the Black.  And I do *not* think the dragons were controlled by
>Sauron, though he would have been quick to take advantage of them,
>had the situation arisen.  As far as I know they were free agents,
>utterly selfish, serving no-one.  Sauron could hardly have been
>pleased at the loss of four of the most powerful Rings, when they
>might still have become great weapons in his hands.

   I think the Dragons were more under Sauron's control than you
realize, even if it was subtle, indirect control. Certainly the
words of Gandalf to the Hobbits in Minas Tirith indicate that *he*
thought Sauron was in charge of Smaug. It is my belief that Smaug's
attack on the Lonely Mountain was instigated by Sauron in hopes of
"liberating" the Ring of Durin. It failed in that purpose, and the
Ring escaped the mountain. This is supported by Gandalf's statement
that the misfortunes of the House of Durin were due in large part to
the malice of Sauron and his lust for the Ring. Certainly the
Desolation of Smaug was the greatest of these misfortunes!
   The way I see it is that Sauron would have *prefered* to regain
the Seven, but given the choice between letting the Dwarves keep
them and seeing them destroyed, he prefered the destruction.
Besides, he had probably hoped that the Dragons would *collect* the
Rings, not consume them. After all the greed and avarice of Dragons
is legendary.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jul 86 00:31:16 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: The LOTR vs. other sources

In this discussion of Rings, it has generally been assumed that
reliable information about Middle Earth can be obtained by looking
at sources outside the LOTR, such as the Silmarillion or the
Unfinished Tales, and that the most reliable information can be
obtained by asking Tolkien himself.  This is a convenient point of
view, since it gives us more material for discussion and makes its
interpretation easier, but I feel that it is somewhat of an
oversimplification.  We do not normally consider tales, myths,
legends, or even personal accounts such as those that formed the
basis of the LOTR, to be completely accurate descriptions of past
events; and yet, with the exception of those parts that are clearly
metaphorical, such as the creation story, we do not apply these
standards to Tolkien's work.

One justification for this is that we are dealing with fiction and
with a world created by an author.  If his words are unreliable, how
do we know anything?  If we treat the tales of the Elder Days as we
do most myths, we would have to decide that most of what they say
cannot be interpreted literally.  (I won't bother to go into the
different schools of myth interpretation here; but they all agree
that the true meaning is not the obvious literal one.  If anyone can
supply a structuralist analysis of the LOTR, though, I would be
interested in reading it.)  Or, suppose we treated the Silmarillion
as we do the Illiad.  There, we may accept that there was a Trojan
War, but we don't then accept that actual gods played an important
part.

This argument is fine as far as it goes, and it does show that we
cannot expect to apply our critical methods in the usual way; but it
does not show that all of Tolkien's work should be treated equally
or that these methods are completely irrelevant.

Our primary source for everything involved in the War of the Ring is
the LOTR.  "The tale grew in the telling," we are told, and it is
reasonable to suppose that as the story was "drawn irresistibly
towards the older world" the older world itself was changed.  The
other books that describe the Elder Days more directly do not
necessarily represent the same fictional world.  (They may have
different notional release numbers.)  This is most clearly so for
things like the Unfinished Tales; they were not finished, after all,
much less given final revision.  There is no reason to consider them
all equally reliable, or even to say that they all have the same
kind of reliability.  Tolkien himself calls them "mythology and
legends" [TFotR, Forward], and to some extent they must be treated
as such.

We lose as well as gain when we look into the Elder Days.  We end up
knowing more, but the way we experience the LOTR changes, and in
some ways it becomes less effective; at least I find it so.  In the
LOTR, Tolkien's treatment of Higher things is subtle.  "I can put it
no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring,
and *not* by its maker."  This is the best that Gandalf can do, and
after reading the LOTR we cannot do much more ourselves.  Yet most
recent messages on this subject have been much plainer, even if they
did not always agree in all details.  Clearly something has changed.
Indeed, I would not be surprised if someone could now advance
detailed reasons for Gandalf's reticence.  Perhaps he was not
permitted to say more, and we might even guess why.  But it's
difficult to do so just from the LOTR itself.

Another example comes to mind.  Someone recently described Bombadil
as "a Valar who has gone to ground".  Perhaps Tolkien too says as
much.  But this is more than Elrond tells us: "Iarwain Ben-adar we
called him, oldest and fatherless."  Here, Bombadil is just himself,
sui generis.  If we now classify him with the Valar, we impoverish
the world.

I feel that the LOTR is Tolkien's best work; some of the other stuff
is just not to the same standard.  In the LOTR, the Elder Days
provide depth; through glimpses of things that were, we gain a sense
of mystery and begin to feel the "changefulness of mortal lands".
Everything gains in significance; Eregion is not just empty
landscape, it is an embodiment of memory and loss: "deep they delved
us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone."
The Silmarillion does not, in my view, quite live up to this
promise.  The creation story is particularly disappointing, but the
main text is also less than it might have been, and certainly less
than some of its real world equivalents.

This is not to say that only the LOTR itself has value, or that we
should drop the other works from our discussion.  I did enjoy the
Silmarillion, and I would be glad to learn something that would let
me enjoy it more; I have enjoyed the discussion of Ring lore.  But I
don't think this is the only kind of discussion we can have.
Comparative mythology, for example, can tell us as much, in its way,
as the Silmarillion.  The Mabinogian or the Tain, for example, are
strange in a way that is largely missing from Tolkien, and this can
in itself tell us something about Middle Earth.

Moreover, we cannot neglect our own role.  Middle Earth is not just
what Tolkien gives us, but also what we bring to it.  This is one
reason why it is possible to find more in it on each rereading: the
reader has changed.  This is also one reason why I am uncomfortable
with appeals to Tolkien as the ultimate authority.  We should not
suppose that every question has an answer and seek endlessly to find
it.  In the LOTR, much is unknown, even to the Wise.

Someone has cited a personal communication from Tolkien to the
effect that Sauron held the nine rings.  Is this, then, the final
answer?  Suppose the text clearly said otherwise.  Then we would
know that Tolkien had made a mistake somewhere, but we would not
know that the mistake was in the book.  However, the LOTR does not
answer this clearly.  "The nine the Nazgul keep" -- so says Gandalf
at the Council of Elrond, and ordinarily it would suffice.  But
earlier, in The Shadow of the Past, he tells Frodo "the Nine he has
gathered to himself".  Perhaps this meant metaphorically: he
controls the wraiths that wear them, and they are therefore his; but
when the Witch King dies, no ring remains.  (What happens to his
crown?)  Because the book is unclear, the answer is also, despite
what Tolkien says.

(If you disagree, imagine that Tolkien said things that were clearly
false on the basis of the text.  He could, in our normal
interpretation of free will, say such things.  Would you then say
the book must be incorrect, or just that Tolkien was inconsistent?
The book can be wrong: it is certainly possible for it to contain
mistakes; but in other cases, Tolkien is just another source, and we
must employ the usual tools for dealing with such inconsistencies.)

In sum, I would like to encourage two things.  The first is to pay
greater attention to the LOTR itself, while still considering the
other works.  The second is to to try for greater variety in our
approach to Middle Earth.  The messages I find most useful are those
that suggest new ways of reading or that let me see things I've
overlooked.

Jeff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jul 86 0830-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #186
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 186

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 86 10:41:07 GMT
From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: Orcs

ron@bonnie.UUCP (Ronald Zasadzinski) writes:
>Some clarification on immortality and the death of men: For elves,
>they are immortal, meaning they can only die by being killed with
>force or can die from overwhelming grief.  When they die, elves go
>to the Halls of Mandos for some time, then are 'reborn' in their
>children. Thus all elven 'spirits' walk Middle Earth until The
>Great End.
>
>As for men, their fate is not as final as one may think. When
>'Mortals' die, their spirits go to the lands west of Valinor and
>wander there in shadow until The Great End. So the spirits of men
>also survive until the End of the world, but do not regain physical
>representation and are confined, unlike the immortal elves.

In the Silmarillion it is pointed out that men's mortality is a gift
to them from Illuvatar. They alone of the children of Illuvatar
leave Arda before the Great End. When they die they may tarry of
awhile on the Western shores of Valinor but they leave Arda and go
beyond the knowledge of the Valar. That is why Luthien chose
mortality, so she could go with Beren when he left Arda.

>Just what does happen to Orcs? I don't know. If they are corrupted
>and deformed elves, perhaps they too are reborn in their children.
>On the other hand, they may have been so badly deformed that their
>spirits were alo effected, and they do not get reborn. In this case
>what happens? Do they too like men wander the lands west of Valinor
>until the great end? Do they go as spirits to serve Melko? Or do
>they just 'die' and disappear forever? That wouldn't be consistent
>with the death of all other races however.  Any explanations?

I think the answer is nothing happens to them. Although it is
believed that they are corrupted Elves they are NEVER referred to as
the children of Illuvatar. It is only Illuvatar's children that seem
to have a 'life after death' (remember that Dwarves are adopted
children). I would say that Orcs are disinherited children and
therefore do not inherit their birth-right (i.e immortality). They
have become animals.  Remember that the Elves did not attempt to
uncorrupt the Orcs because they were long-lost cousins, but
exterminate them because they were a mockery and a blasphemy.

Mike Woods.
UK JANET: mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:     ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 19:23:22 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Men and Sauron

>. . . the Elves were shown the wonder of Valinor very soon after
>they awoke, and for a time almost *all* the Elves lived in Valinor.

My understanding from the Silmarillion is that in the Elves' Great
Journey from Lake Cuivienen, where they first awoke, to Valinor,
several groups dropped out along the way, preferring to live in the
lands to which the journey had just brought them.  The last such
actually reached the sea, but did not board ship.  So there are
indeed many Elves who never saw Valinor.  These include all the
"modern" Sylvan Elves, who account for a fair part of the
populations of Lorien and Mirkwood.  It was Sylvan Elves who sang
silly songs at Thorin and Company in The Hobbit.  Unlike those went
to Valinor, they have no great longing for the sea, but they also
never gained the nobility and love of beauty acquired by those the
Valar taught, and were more inclined to silliness and paranoid
suspicion of others (remember the guards in Thranduil's kingdom, in
The Hobbit).

>So, when Men awoke, the Valar learned of it only after Melkor had
>planted the seeds of trouble in them.  (For example: when the Elves
>awoke, the night was beautiful with starlight and nature in all its
>glory.  Man awoke to night also... night made fearful by Melkor and
>his servants.  Men were also convinced by Melkor's emissaries that
>the Valar were in fact horribly evil beings.

I was not really serious about resenting Mens' greater
susceptibility.  I should have put a smile with that remark, but I
didn't think of it.

My impression is that you are making the case stronger than it is.
As I recall, the Elves were there when Men awoke (or shortly after),
even though the Valar weren't, and Elves and Men became friends
almost immmediately.  In fact, possibly the first grief Elves ever
encountered was that a Man would wither and die after a scant
century or two, of no reason but age, and the Elves (not
understanding Illuvatar's gift to his children) felt this a terrible
thing to happen to their friends.  So I'm sure that Melkor's
influence was by no means the only one, that Men learned many joys
from the Elves (and received a truer account of the Valar), and that
for both, the night held both horrors and beauties.

I will, of course, re-check the Silmarillion, since I haven't read
this section in a long time, and may remember it less well than I
think.

> Makes you wish Melkor had been banished long before Men had
> arisen.

Virtually everthing about Melkor makes me wish that.  In fact, I
wish he had chosen somewhere else entirely for his gentle attentions
than Middle Earth.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jul 86 20:40:48 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: How much did Sauron control?

>   It may well be that during his period of disembodiment after the
>fall of Numenor the Dragons became independent, and he may not have
>fully re-established his dominion over them during the Watchful
>Peace due to his need of secrecy, *but* that dominion was real.
>This is made clear in the recently published accounts by Gandalf of
>*why* he helped the Dwarves against Smaug. His comments make it
>*very* clear that he anticipated Sauron using Smaug to totally
>devastate the North.  His final comment is something to the effect
>that the companions might have returned from victory in the south
>to devastation and ruin in the north, and that there might have
>been no Queen in Gondor! This clearly indicates that Sauron could
>in fact control the Dragons.

Why do you choose the fall of Numenor, in particular?  It seems
unrelated to Morgoth's creatures.

I know the section of "Unfinished Tales" you are referring to, and
it doesn't appear to me to indicate any such thing.  It *does*
illustrate that Sauron was a campaigner who would take advantage of
any existing obstacle to his enemies -- but I knew that already.
What Gandalf seemed to mean was that the forces of the West would
have had to split between Mordor and Erebor if Smaug were still
there, or they would have had a large flank open to the dragon.
This would have worked nicely to Sauron's advantage.  But there is a
considerable difference between taking advantage of something, and
controlling it, and there is no solid indication, in this section or
elsewhere that I know of, that Sauron actually had control.  Smaug
would have been a useful circumstance to Sauron in the North, just
as Shelob was in Cirith Ungol.  But the section says nothing
stronger than that.

Don't forget, in these passages, Gandalf, while considering the many
points at which Middle Earth's future stood on a knife's edge, was
indulging a lot of speculation about what could have happened had
this or that turned out differently, a prime one being: "suppose
Smaug had not been killed".  And I don't see anything more solid
than speculation about Sauron's relations with the dragons.

FOR ALL WHO HAVEN'T READ THIS SECTION: It is in "Unfinished Tales",
occurs in Minas Tirith, where the re-united Fellowship is staying
until Aragorn's coronation, and many questions are being answered.
It is a marvelous addendum to LotR, and I highly recommend it.

>   Sauron didn't gain dominion over the last remaining Balrog
>because they were essentially *equal*, both being Maiar. Dragons,
>however, were more like the Trolls and Orcs, that is they were real
>biological beings *bred* by Morgoth, and thus subject to Sauron.

Excuse me?

1.  The self styled "Lord of all Earth", whose power covered all
    Mordor and many lands to its south and east, as well as
    infiltrating north and west, was far superior to one Balrog,
    whose influence was essentially restricted to Moria, and who was
    eventually destroyed in personal combat by Gandalf, before the
    latter's rebirth.  The fact that both were Maiar certainly
    doesn't necessitate their having similar power.  Saruman was
    also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits' arrows, which
    Balrog and Sauron might never even have noticed.  It seems to me
    the Maiar were a widely divergent class of beings, of very
    differing powers and potentials.

2.  Why do you suggest that Morgoth's having bred something gave
    Sauron automatic hold over it?  Sauron was furthering his own
    ends, not venerating Morgoth's; nor was Morgoth a "doting
    father", preparing a strong inheritence for his "protege".  Of
    the things that escaped Thangorodrim, Sauron apparently gathered
    up what he would, ignoring others -- perhaps choosing those that
    were both easily dominated and numerous, considering the more
    powerful and rare (e.g. Shelob, any of her family, dragons,
    Balrogs, and perhaps others) to require too much investment for
    too small a return, or maybe to be too greedy.

While I by no means wish to minimise the incredible power that
Sauron seems to have held, it doesn't follow that every selfish or
evil creature of power in Middle Earth was under his sway.  Even the
Orcs of the more northern dens of the Misty Mountains seem to have
held some independence, regardless of their origins, and we know
that Orcs under Saruman attacked Orcs of Sauron's, even with a
common enemy hot on their heels.  And we know that Shelob, for
instance, was tolerated without being dominated, because she was
useful, and even sometimes amusing.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 86 15:36:45 GMT
From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others, to
>one degree or another.  They never had, for instance, the immediate
>friendship that arose between Men and Elves.  Their languages and
>customs were kept very much to themselves.  But it seems to me
>that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the Rings
>couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation with the
>Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never have
>occurred.  I can't think offhand where they brought great harm to
>Sauron's enemies -- I think they brought more harm to the Orcs --
>remember the vicious war over Moria.  Though it is true enough that
>the Dwarves became greedier and more secretive, and certainly some
>of the consequences of that were to Sauron's advantage.

Whereas I agree that the rings failed in their intended purpose, it
would be wrong to say they did not do great harm. As there were
seven rings (each of which was the start of a horde of treasure) I
would guess there were at least seven cities of the Dwarves. By the
time of the Hobbit there are only two (as far as we can gather) (the
Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills). Certainly Erebor and Moria were
destroyed because of the wealth horded there.  A minor point. The
cooperation between the Elven-smiths and the Dwarves of Moria ended
with the destruction of Elven kingdom, before the ring was given to
Durin.

> And I do *not* think the dragons were controlled by Sauron, though
>he would have been quick to take advantage of them, had the
>situation arisen.  As far as I know they were free agents, utterly
>selfish, serving no-one.

Agreed. It is interesting that the Dwarven kingdoms were largely
destroyed by dragons. I think it may not have just been the treasure
that lured them, the Dwarves (with their iron battle masks) were the
only ones able to withstand the dragons' fire (See the
Silmarillion).

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:    ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  5 Jul 1986 18:50:34-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Tolkien:  What is Ungoliant?

Tolkien never says straight out exactly what Ungoliant is.  On page
73 of the Silmarillion (1977 First American Printing by Houghton
Mifflin), it says:

   ... and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made
   her abode.  The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have
   said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness
   that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon
   the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of
   those that he corrupted to his service.  But she had disowned her
   Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all
   things to herself to feed her emptiness...

The same "but some have said" caveats are applied by Tolkien to the
assertions that Gandalf was Olorin the Maia of Valinor.  From the
above passage, I conclude that Ungoliant was one of the Ainur (who
else was around when Melkor first looked down upon the Kingdom of
Manwe?).  Since she clearly was not one of the Valar, that makes her
a Maia.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 86 01:04:16 -0300
From: Ady Wiernik   <ady%taurus.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Ungoliant as a Maia

Ungoliant is (probably) a Maiar, as can be deduced from her
"introduction" in the Silmarilion, Ch. 8 (The Darkening of Valinor):
"The Eldar knew not whence she come; but some have said that in ages
long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda,...
and that in the begining she was one of those that he corrupted to
his service".

The first part implies she was one of the Ainu (which came from the
outer darkness). She wasn't one of the Valar (as all of them are
known and named), and thus was a Maia. Furthermore, it is known that
the ones which Melkor corrupted where Maiar (cf. "For of the Maiar
many were drawn to his splendour...", Valaquenta).

However, nothing is certain, and I'm using only what I remember from
the Silmarilion here.

Ady Wiernik
Tel-Aviv Univ.
ady@taurus.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 86 22:28:06 GMT
From: purdue!avr@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew V. Royappa)
Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts

hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP writes:
> I loved "The Hobbit."  I was enthralled (several times) by "The
> Lord of the Rings."  But when I got to the "Silmarillon" (sp?), I
> received a nasty shock.  I just couldn't get into it; I only read
> a dozen pages or so.
>
> My question: What else by Tolkien is more in the narrative style
> of LotR?  I did read some of the things in "The Tolkien Reader,"
> but they are more in the whimsical style of "The Hobbit."  Does
> "Silmarillon" get better later (it would have to get *much*
> better!)?  Are the "Unfinished Tales" worth looking into?  Or is
> LotR his single masterpiece?

   I had the same problem when I started reading the Silmarillion.
However, I went back to it later and enjoyed it tremendously.
   I consider the Silmarillion more of a masterpiece than LotR, if
that's possible.
   Believe me, the Silmarillion is worth getting into, once you get
used to the shock of reading something that reads like a history
book at times - there are incredibly beautiful stories in there.
   You need to keep a finger in the appendixes when reading it, to
refer to the genealogies and word-meanings.
   Incidentally, for those who have already read the Silmarillion, I
have this question: was Numenor supposed to be Atlantis ? Obvious
similarities aside, Tolkien at one point (near the end of the
Akallabeth) calls it "Atalante" (umlaut on the e).

Andrew V. Royappa
{ihnp4, purdue, pur-ee, decvax, ucbvax}!purdue!avr
avr@Purdue      (ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 86 0836-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #187
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 187

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Bear & Dean &
                      Lem & Saberhagen & Story Request,
              Films - Back to the Future & 
                      Rental Recommendations &
                      Labyrinth & Books into Films,
              Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - SF Writers Group (2 msgs) & 
                      Orion (3 msgs) & Challenger 7 Fund

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1986 09:08:55-EDT
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

I've seen two extreme viewpoints on Piers Anthony; I guess that
calls for a middle-of-the-road opinion.  Here goes...

I've read a fair amount of Anthony's work.  Some of it I found
immensely enjoyable; some of it I found to be, in short, tripe.
Since I have always been fond of puns and other forms of so-called
"low" humor, I thoroughly enjoyed the Xanth series -- up to Night
Mare.  However, I literally suffered through Dragon on a Pedestal,
and I refuse to read another Xanth novel.  The Split Infinity trio
was also quite enjoyable.  However, having read two of the Bio of a
Space Tyrant series, I can't work up enough interest to try a third.

On the whole, I find Anthony to be a very uneven author.  Some of
his stuff is gripping.  I had a hard time putting Battle Circle
down.  Some of his other work I find to be fatuous, ill-conceived
and terminally cute.

While I don't agree completely with either Antonio Leal's or Michael
Steven Temkin's viewpoints (expressed recently in SF-Lovers), I
enjoyed reading them.  I only wish Mr. Temkin had been a little less
insulting and obnoxious: It detracted from otherwise well-expressed
commentary.

Brian Clapper

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 20:46:57 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: P Anthony, not trash!!

>3 chapters of "Prostho Plus". Those two are the only P.A. books I
>bought, and I am sorry, and promise not to do it again!

>No wonder: as a writer, he is absolute trash, totally incompetent,
>and I can only praise the editors who defended us from him.

I will defend anyone's right to like or not like anything... BUT
these comments are insane. First off I infer (correct me if I
misunderstood) that the complainer has read only 2 Piers Anthony
books, one of which was an anthology of early stuff and the other an
early novel.  Naturally this isn't his best stuff.

As to the absolute trash part, say what? The Xanth books are, of
late, routinely on the paperback bestseller lists. I really don't
think that any book that is totally incompetent trash could hope to
achieve that status. Piers's fantasy may not be in the same class as
Tolkien, but so what! I've read at least 2 dozen of his books and
found them to be very imaginative and mostly a good deal of fun to
read. If you don't like him, fine, that's your right, just don't
tell me that what he writes is incompetent trash, that's just bull.

Burch Seymour
Gould C.S.D.
....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 8:42:03 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
To: eppstein@CU-GARFIELD.ARPA
Subject: Re:  When will these books come out?

Well, a follow-on (don't know if it's the *conclusion* or not;
didn't ask) to Greg Bear's "Infinity Concerto" is definitely coming.
I asked Greg Bear about it this past weekend, but didn't bother to
ask about a release date as I have found that authors rarely know
that - publishers don't bother to tell them, and frequently change
release dates anyway.  It's done and in the publishers hands,
though, as I understood his reply.

Hope it's soon!
Rich

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  8 Jul 1986 07:00:53-PDT
From: mccutcheon%vino.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Charlie McCutcheon)
Subject: Re: When will these books come out?

Pamela Dean's book The Hidden Land is now out.  I've seen a copy and
intend to buy it when I get a chance.  I knew Pamela when I worked
with her husband, so I tend to follow her work!

(Hope this isn't just the nth reply, I get SF Lovers in bunches
forwarded to me, so this is delayed some)

Charlie McCutcheon
PS The Hidden Land does have an ending for the plot, whereas the
Secret Country did not.  (Very mild spoiler!)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 21:46:43 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: I remember Solaris!  * Minor Spoiler *

>Also one about the Pentagon Building, (The Building, maybe), ...

That's "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub."

>...In any event, the one exception are certain chilling passages
>from Solaris. ...  In particular, I remember a scene in which the
>main character's ex-wife or girlfriend/duplicate, is trying to
>batter down the door of an escape pod or ship of some sort. I also
>remember my skin crawling. ...

Another chilling passage (for me) was the reading of the tape
recorded by the pilot (?) driven mad by his view of a Solarian
construct in the shape of a gigantic infant whose facial expressions
and movements (as I recall it) were so alien they drove the observer
mad. Very Lovecraftian, recalling the ending of "At The Mountains Of
Madness."

>Parts of Solaris, like much of Lem, drags on ad nauseum but it is
>required reading for a Lem fan. There was a movie made of the book,
>although I never saw it and I don't think it was widely distributed
>in the U.S., it would have to be worth seeing if at all possible.
>Does anyone know anything of its availibility?

It plays from time to time at 'art' theatres around the country.
It's VERY long, but has some deeply affecting scenes that aren't in
the book (in one, two people embrace in a very 19th-century room as
gravity in the Station is cut off and they and a candelabra float
about the room in zero-G: it was like certain paintings by Marc
Chagall in effect). Also, the ending scene is powerful but I won't
commit an unforgiveable spoiler by giving it away. If you like Lem,
you should see the movie. If you don't like Lem or movies that drag
on, you'll probably be bored. By the way, the scene in which the
main character's 'wife' (can't remember names) drinks LOX is also
very nicely done.

Cheers, Bill

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jul 86 08:41 ???
From: Cacophony <JMELLBY%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Berserker Chronology?

A friend asked me a question which I am embarassingly unable to
answer.  What is the proper chronology of the Berserker series?
Thanks.

John Mellby, Texas Instruments
JMellby%ti-eg@CSNET-Relay

------------------------------

Date: Mon 7 Jul 86 12:17:42-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Odd story request

  I am looking for a science fiction story to quote in a science
article.  The article is going to be about chlorophyll and
photosynthesis, and I would like to find a passage that describes a
planet in another solar system that has plants which are not green
but still have a metabolism which is similar to that of terrestrial
vegetation. This would come about on a planet whose sun is either
hotter or cooler than Sol. (One would expect to find blue
photosynthetic plants on a planet circling a hot star, etc.)
  I know this is a pretty specific request, but I sure that there is
some story out there which has what I am looking for and that
someone out there has read it.

Thanks in advance,
David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@R20.utexas.edu
US mail: 4300 Avenue C
         Austin, Texas, 78751

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 03:36:16 GMT
From: ethos!jay@caip.rutgers.edu (Jay Denebeim)
Subject: Back to the Future

   I saw Amblin's _Back_to_the_Future_ again tonight.  A quick
comment that it looses nothing being watched on a television, still
magic.  I did notice something new though.  It said "To be
continued" before the ending credits.  Perhaps I'm on drugs, but it
didn't say that in the theaters did it?  Does anyone have more info
on BTTF II?  Does it exist?  Or was I just dreaming the whole thing.

Jay Denebeim
{seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay
Deep Thought, ZNode #42 300/1200/2400 919-471-6436

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1986 13:31:35 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson            )
Subject: Movie Recommendations

   Can anyone out there recommend some sci-fi/fantasy movies worth
renting from the local video store? I can't stand renting a movie
that looks good on the shelf, only to watch it later and find out
that its boring trash. (An example: "Godzilla 1985").

Carlo Samson
u09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 08 July 86 01:06 EDT
From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: RE: Labyrinth

In SF-Lovers V11, #180, J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>
writes:
>I must disagree with the person who recently posted a glowing
>review of the new film "Labyrinth" --- I absolutely hated it, and
>would have walked out 20 minutes into it had I not driven others to
>the theater.

Thank God, someone with sense in their head wrote intelligibly about
why this film was so bad. I find it difficult to believe that the
posters Mr. Alfke was referring to could still watch the thing when
the first of the music videos began, unless they were die-hard David
Bowie fans (I too was a driver for others and trapped at the
theater). The film is nothing except a complete waste of some
brilliant technical work, and if anyone out there really wants to
see said effects, they are advised to wait until they can rent a VCR
edition of the thing. (By the way, I disagree with Mr. Alfke about
"Time Bandits", although the rest of his points are well-taken.)

Artie Samplaski
Bitnet: UUAJ@CORNELLA
Internet: UUAJ@CORNELLA.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 17:26:32 GMT
From: frog!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woods, Software)
Subject: Re: Books into movies

    12. Almost everything by Roger Zelazny
    13. The REAL 'Bladerunner' (but I guess it would have to be
        called "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"...

John Woods
Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101
...!decvax!frog!john
...!mit-eddie!jfw
jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 86 09:52:34 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 on tape!

thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP (znac468) writes:
>   The budget certainly wasn't low, it was the most expensive tv
>program ever produced up till that time..

   It might be true that it was the most expensive tv programme
produced at that time, but it was still forced to work with a low
budget for an sf programme. I have read several books on tv sf that
all praise the show for doing so well on a low budget!

   Just as a side issue - how many people where stationed on
Moonbase Alpha when the Moon left Earth orbit? It's always seemed to
me that they have an inexhaustible supply of Eagles and pilots,
considering the number of Eagles destroyed in battles or simply by
crashing!!!

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 86 16:45:33 GMT
From: rh@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Robert Hamilton)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 on tape!

I remember this show... In the only episode I saw the hero was using
a ray-gun of some sort to blast open a door.  What was he using as a
ray-gun ?? I remember distinctly that it was a 6-inch reflecting
telescope!!!  nuff said about what must have been the silliest SF
show ever.

JANET:  rh@uk.ac.paisley.cs
EMAIL:  rh@cs.paisley.ac.uk
UUCP:   ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!paisley!rh
Phone:  +44 41 887 1241 Ext. 219
Post: Paisley College
      Department of Computing,
      High St. Paisley.
      Scotland.
      PA1 2BE

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 86 06:04:12 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Any SF Writers Out There?

Would there be any interest in setting up some sort of informal
writers' group to exchange and critque stories?  I think it would be
useful to get reactions and constructive criticism from others who
are familiar with the genre of SF.  Showing a story to friends and
family is usually good for the ego, but there is a limit to the
usefulness of this procedure.

In any case, I would be interested in hearing from any other writers
of science fiction on the net, either published or unpublished (I
currently fall into the latter category).  Any advice, anecdotes, or
random comments are welcome.

By the way, does anyone know if Amazing is still the only major SF
magazine to include individual comments along with their rejection
notices?  Or have they switched to the old "Thank you for your
story, but it does not suit our needs for one of the 257 following
reasons....." form letters that Analog and IASFM use?

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 86 05:38:52 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: Any SF Writers Out There?

    This sound agreeable to me. My science fiction and fantasy work
also falls into the latter group. And getting other people's ideas
might improve my work quite a bit.
    Oh, and the rejection slips from IASFM include some individual
comments. But that was when Shawna was there, so I don't know about
the present slips.

Cathy Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  6 Jul 86  18:03:52 EDT
From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (MATTHEW G. SAROFF)
Subject: What Orion Was.......

Hi,
    A couple of people have been asking what the ORION propulsion
project was.  Here is a brief synopsis:

1) ORION was a theoretical way of nuclear propulsion in outer space.
It worked by detonating small (Kiloton) nuclear warheads to push the
ship through space.

2) All the numbers showed it work theoretically.

3) All research on ORION stopped when the test ban treaty went into
effect. The ORION propulsion system constituted "open air" nuclear
explosions.

4) If not for the treaty, It would probably not have been developed.
A ship with HUNDREDS of nukes on board is too tempting as a
military/terrorist target.

Pleasant Dreams,
Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 86 19:07:00 GMT
From: aaj@hpfcrh
Subject: Re: Orion propulsive devices

The same principle (minus radiation) is used by Pournelle in "King
David's Spaceship".

Tony.

------------------------------

From: randvax!rohn@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurinda Rohn)
Subject: Re: orion project, references to in sf literature
Date: 7 Jul 86 16:36:20 GMT

There's also a book by Poul Anderson called "Orion Shall Rise".  I
know it's out in a trade paperback, but I'm not sure if it's been
published mass-market or not.  I read it quite some time ago.  I
thought it was an interesting book, good but not superb.

Lauri
rohn@rand-unix.ARPA
..ihnp4!sdcrdcf!randvax!rohn

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 12:28:04 EDT (Monday)
From: power.Wbst@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Challenger 7 Fund

Someone recently posted a message about a Fund for a Challenger
replacement.

Excerpt:
 "I wish the American people could do something to demonstrate
their support and enthusiasm for another Shuttle," he said.
"Someone should start a fund or something, that the country could
get behind, and and we could contribute and finance a new one."
     "Why don't you?" I asked.
     "Oh, I couldn't do that," he replied.  "People don't listen to
me.  I can't sell an idea or anything else."
     End of conversation.  Except that last Sunday he turned up with
a terrific pin on his lapel, with a space shuttle on it.  He DID
start it, and the Challenger 7 Fund has begun.  This is a real grass
roots deal, but for real, and the press releases are coming out next
week.

I would like to contribute to a Challenger replacement fund.
Therefore I'ld like to know a few things:

Who is your friend?

Why is he qualified to run this fund raiser? (I don't want to spend
money on a lost cause)

What assurances do we have that this money is going to go where he
says it is?

Will he publish full cost accounting?

What does NASA have to say about this?

Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jul 86 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #188
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bear & Busby & Clifton & McCaffrey &
                    Piper (2 msgs) & Footfall & Funny SF,
            Films - Labyrinthe (2 msgs) & Books into Films (3 msgs),
            Music - SF Music,
            Miscellaneous - A Correction & SF Writers Group &
                    The Orion Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 17:21:31 PDT
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: sequel to The Infinity Concerto

Greg Bear said at Westercon that The Serpent Mage (sequel to The
Infinity Concerto) would be out by the end of the year (he actually
named a month, but I don't remember it). It does, by the way, wrap
things up and ends the series.

Linda Wald
math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 15:36:49 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #182
From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

About Rissa Kergeulen:

   Yes, you do get the point of view of both Rissa and Bran Tregare.
Busby wrote both their biographies, plus a volume about a supporting
character and one after THE LONG VIEW.  Does anyone know of other
stories in this universe?

   If you look close the volume RISSA KERGUELEN contains YOUNG
RISSA, RISSA AND TREGARE, and THE LONG VIEW.  There is a sequel to
this, THE ALIEN VIEW (I think) and a pre-queal, something M'TANDE,
covering her life before she hooks up with Tregare.

   All very pleasent reading, especially if you like to anticipate
how the author will handle the multilple viewpoints.  But a bit
disappointing when you anticipate whole new adventures.  Three stars
out of five.  I prefer his ALL THESE EARTHS, a multi-dimensional
universe story.

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 18:51:32 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: WHEN THEY COME FROM SPACE

   Is by Mark Clifton. Really satiric/pessimistic, rather than
straight humor.
   NB lifton may not have been the only personnel manager to write
SF, but he's the only person I've ever read to make a personnel
manager the lead character (about various psi abilities (in
deference to Campbell?)).

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 14:56:06 GMT
From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: KILLASHANDRA by Anne McCaffrey (mild spoiler)

Time: medium-range future (some hundreds of years from now)

Place: planet Optheria, mainly.

Introduction: Killashandra is a crystal singer, a person with
perfect pitch, able and willing to seek much-needed crystal (of
various kinds) on planet Ballybran. It's a love-hate relationship
though; singers save enough money selling crystal to leave planet,
but, for biological reasons, they always have to return.
Killashandra has just excavated a decent load of crystal, not enough
to get her very far off planet, but at least enough to take her away
from Ballybran. But the head of her guild offers her a short-term
job on planet Optheria, a planet mainly noted for its crystal-based
musical organs.  She's to take her load of crystals and install them
in the main organ; on the side she's to try and find out why no
Optherian has ever left the planet.

Main storylines: Killashandra's adventures on Optheria, her
investigation, and her relationship with a leading islander there.

SF elements: advanced technology, galactic and planetary politics,
minor biological changes in some humans (crystal singers).

Critique: This book might be called "The Further Adventures of
Killashandra Ree". It starts a few months after CRYSTAL SINGER ends.
Killashandra comes across as a believable person, and the worlds
seem quite real. The book is paced well enough. I had a bit of
trouble believing that Killashandra would strike up the romantic
relationship she did, but it's not that improbable, given the nature
of her character. I didn't find any particular fault with the book,
but I didn't find anything especially gripping or exciting either.
It's a pleasant, mildly interesting read. I give it 3.0 stars (good,
but I'll trade it in).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 18:11:51 GMT
From: ihlpf!wad@caip.rutgers.edu (Dawson)
Subject: Re: Piper

>I just finished Space Viking and Little Fuzzy and would wish to
>know the titles of his others books...

I don't know anything about Piper himself, however, I do know other
books in the fuzzy series have been written by different authors.

        ie <title unknown>   by Arduth Mayhar.

I do remember reading other books not in that series by Piper which
I found boring; their titles escape me.

Debby Wallach
ihnp4!ihlpf!wad

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 16:15:12 GMT
From: osu-eddie!jac@caip.rutgers.edu (James Clausing)
Subject: Re: Piper

   Part of the reason that others had to finish the Fuzzy stuff up
was that Piper died (killed himself I believe) before the third one
was published.  It was finally found years later and published.  I
found the differences between Piper's version and (the name escapes
me) version interesting.  They didn't quite view that world (or the
Fuzzies the same way).

Jim Clausing
CIS Department          jac@ohio-state.CSNET
Ohio State University   jac@ohio-state.ARPA
Columbus, OH 43210      jac@osu-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 20:09:32 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Footfall

Question.  Early on, one of the people who spots the ship is a "chap
named Tom Duff, a computer type" at Kitt Peak observatory.
Considering the name-dropping in Footfall, might this be a reference
to the Unix Graphics Tom Duff, of NYIT/Lucas/Bell Labs?

Tom?

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jul 86 12:30 PST
From: Kinsman David J <8440827%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Funny SF summary

>...shouldn't all of these suggestions be sent as mail to the
>requestor who, being a good soul, would then post a summary?  I
>mean I must have read 25 suggestions for Xanth and Myth stories.

I've done just that.  I'm not going to post them however, since they
are rather large.  However if you would like to see them I will
glady send them to you.  I have two versions, one is just a list of
titles and authors and the other is the actual text from SFLD.  Any
updates, additions, corrections or whatever are more than welcome.


David Kinsman
Western Washington University
Bellingham Washington
8440827%WWU@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 11:02 EST
From: JimC@a
Subject: Reply to J. Peter Alfke

I must disagree with the pan that Alfke gives "Labyrinth"--not so
much because he's totally wrong, but because his reasons are way off
base.

For one thing, it does nobody any good to start comparing
imaginative works to critical theories that attempt to establish
what's good and what's bad--even if the theorizer is Ursula LeGuin.
What works is what works, and the final arbiter is the individual's
taste, judgment and experience.  Always remember: de gustibus non
disputandum est.

No doubt the movie has a lot of dumb things in it (ably pointed out
by Mr. Alfke), but the audience I sat in enjoyed it immensely as did
my own kids, who are keen fantasy fans and who were on the edges of
their seats the whole time.

What's very clear is that Mr. Alfke has filtered the movie through
his own highly subjective aesthetic values, which he assumes
everyone else has.  As far as I can tell, the producers had one
thing in mind and Mr.  Alfke another.  There's no question, at least
for me, that the production was well done and involved a serious and
strenuous creative effort by a number of talented people.  Whether
or not a movie has those classic hooks to the archetypes of the
unconscious is not something that's going to be determined in the
weeks and months following its release.

I would agree that the film lacks the rich subtext of the best
fantasy films, but it was quite cleverly done and did attempt to say
something about the nature of fantasy and reality (although not to
the extent one finds in "The Neverending Story").  In addition, it
tried to work with irony and humor in a way not seen in most
children's fantasy movies, which typically tend to take themselves
much too seriously.

I must also disagree with Alfke's opinion of the dialog, which I
found at times quite lively, with almost the same wit one hears in
the best scenes of "The Wizard of Oz."  But there was also a lot of
dreck, too, not to mention those dreadful music videos stuck in the
middle.

I'm not sure I would recommend this movie to adults, but it's
certainly worth seeing if you're going to take kids.  The special
effects alone-- including the titles--are often wonderful, in the
root meaning of that word.

James Cortese

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 16:58:30 GMT
From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Labyrinth

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>Also, I wasn't sure how appropriate a movie it was for kids.  I was
>seated right in front of a child who seemed upset at some scenes
>such as
[describes scenes, eliminated due to possible spoilage]
>anyway, I got the impression there were some scenes parents in the
>audience wished weren't there.  But I don't know, I'm no child
>psychologist.

  That's why the movie was rated PG.  PG means "Parental Guidance
Suggested" or, in other words, "Hey, there are things in this movie
that might not be appropriate for children."  The fact that most
parents ignore this warning led to the ever-popular PG-13 rating,
which means "Hey, there are things in this movie that might not be
appropriate for children."

Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1986 15:30 EST
From: KEN PAPAI  <ikjp400%INDYCMS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Another vote for Piper: SF into movies

If I were a director/producer and had the money to make films from
appropriate pieces of science fiction I would consider:

  1. Space Viking - H. Beam Piper
     This film could be done by using only two of the major planets
     involved in Piper's magnificent space opera.  Could be a real
     winner!

  2. The Plague Star - George R. R. Martin
     This would be loads of fun.  Too bad Orson Welles isn't around
     anymore, he would be the perfect Haviland Tuf.

  3. Rails Across the Galaxy - Andrew Offut
     A little humerous SF wouldn't hurt either.  This would be a
     challenge for the special effects people.

Ken Papai
Indianapolis, IN

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 06:00:41 GMT
From: palmer@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Books into movies

There may never be another movie involving Roger Zelazny. The
reason?  If you ever saw the movie "Damnation Alley" you would
understand.  This was going to be the big hit Science Fiction movie
of (I think) 1977.  Fortunately the big hit Science fiction movie of
that year was an space opera called SDI or something like that, so
not many people saw it and Zelazny's reputation was not severely
tarnished.

  If some director/producer made some good science fiction movies,
got to know Zelazny, and offered to film one of his stories and give
him final cut, then he might go for it, but such a scenario is
unlikely.

David Palmer
palmer@cit-vax.edu
...seismo!cit-vax!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 17:06:38 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Zelazny's Answer - Re: Books into movies

Actually, I asked Roger Zelazny this question a couple of weeks ago.
He still sells options on his books from time to time.  This is
quite normal for well-known writers, but only a very small number of
the options ever become anything more.  He disliked what they did on
Damnation Alley, but only the very top-name authors get producers
bidding on movie rights to their books, and the rest can't be too
picky.

He'll still sell an option (without right of final cut) to anybody
with the money.

>"This place is swarming with killer cockroaches"
>       -from Damnation Alley, the movie.

Actually, this was one of the few scenes in the film which wasn't in
the story but still had some merit.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 8 July 1986 14:34:59 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Blade Runner music

   The main theme from Blade Runner is on the album "Sci Fi
Spectacular" by Stage & Screen Productions. The album also contains
music from E.T., Tron, Star Trek, 2001, etc. Actually, these are
mostly short (around 3 minutes) themes performed by some orchestra,
and not from the soundtrack. The best cut is the Blade Runner theme,
but they absolutely killed the theme from Superman. (Can you
imagine-- they made it a *disco* tune, for space's sake!) I wouldn't
expect to find it in the main shelves of your local music store,
though; I found my copy in a bin of $3.99 clearance cassettes.

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 20:51:06 -0100
Subject: Names changed to protect the innocent

From: xenixsp!doug@caip.rutgers.edu
>And stumbled across a copy of what appeared to be an episode of
>SPACE 1999 this tape was entitled however,
>_SYLVIA_DANNINGS_ADVENTURE_MOVIES_SPACE:_1999
>_THROUGH_THE_BLACK_SUN. needless to say it looked interesting
>enough.

It's *Sybil* Danning, not Sylvia.  She's in the space remake of The
Magnificant Seven (I forget the title now) along with Robert Vaughn,
et al., some episodes of V, and various other more or less trashy
stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jul 86 20:37:56 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
Subject: SF writers on the net.

Yes, there are definitely some writers, published and unpublished on
the net.  Myself, for one.  Also Jim Brunet, who is currently at
Clarion so can't answer the message personally, and Leigh Ann
Hussey.  A writers group would definitely be interesting, if a
workable format could be developed.  I've thought about it but
haven't seen an obvious format.  One possibility would be to use the
group as the development area for the Fiction section of
OtherRealms, my electronic fanzine, although I don't know how well
that would work...

But there is definitely interest, at least from some corners.

Just FYI, ALL magazines will send personal notes on rejections if
they feel the article/story deserves it.  Whether it deserves it is
up to the editor reading and how much time and interest they have.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 13:17:57 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: What Orion Was.......

From: SAROFF%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (MATTHEW G. SAROFF)
>    A couple of people have been asking what the ORION propulsion
>project was.  Here is a brief synopsis:...
>2) All the numbers showed it work theoretically.

And experiments showed it works in practice as well ...  (at least
with conventional explosives.) Freeman Dyson describes the tests and
experiments in *The Starship and the Canoe,* a biography of Dyson
and his sort of odd son who ends up doing great things with canoes.

>4) If not for the treaty, It would probably not have been
>developed.  A ship with HUNDREDS of nukes on board is too tempting
>as a military/terrorist target.

All is not lost with Orion -- later discussions (see for example the
BIS Daedelus project) discuss using laser-ignited fusion as a
replacement for the fission bombs.  This gives the bloody incredible
mass-ratio of Orion without the problems inherent in carrying a
thousand 100-kilotonne bombs around in your back pocket.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jul 86 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #189
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Busby & Cherryh & Duane &
                         Heinlein (4 msgs) & Lem & 
                         BOLO Stories & Bestsellers,
                 Films - Terminator II & Star Trek IV

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 23:49:29 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen
To: watdcsu!demo@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU
Cc: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU

From: watdcsu!demo@caip.rutgers.edu (COURSE USE [DCS])
>Will someone please explain,preferably in words of no more than 4
>syllables, what is happening with the RISSA series. Just when I
>believed that I had finished the series with THE LONG VIEW out
>comes some more seemingly from the viewpoint of Bran Tregare . Did
>I merely miss some of the series or is this a rehashing of the same
>material ( a neat way of doubling your income from the same amount
>of plotting).

  It is partly the same material, from a different viewpoint.  It is
different material up to the time when Bran meets Rissa.  If you
liked the original books, you will like these too.
  In fact, he wrote it yet a third time, from the viewpoint of Zelde
M'tana.  And he wrote a sequel to all of the above.
  I cannot recommend this series highly enough.  Where else can you
have enough emotion to bring tears even to my eyes, have a starship
named "Backspace Key", have an excellent description of what things
would be like in a civilization held together by relativistic
spaceflight, and have the intellectual challenge of piecing together
the chronology from throw-away lines.  It is also a nice old
fashioned evil empire story, complete with an exiled 'royal' family
and plenty of heroes and villians.  And even a couple of alien
races.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 19:38:23 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: C.J. Cherryh and DAW

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) writes:
> the DAW line is uneven partly because of high fraction of new
> authors it brings out, among whom have been such winners as C J
> Cherryh ...

I have heard a rumor that C.J. Cherryh is switching from DAW to Baen
books.  Can anyone confirm this (or better deny it)?

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 15:46:31 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: THE DOOR INTO SUNSET

I asked Diane Duane when SUNSET was coming out, and I believe she
said that it was due at the publishers in October. If she finishes
THE ROMULAN WAY before August, though, SUNSET will be earlier. If
you have NO idea what I'm talking about, read THE DOOR INTO FIRE and
T.D.I.SHADOW. You won't regret it.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 20:46:15 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

>  wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu writes:
>> bryan@druhi.UUCP (BryanJT) writes:
>>I saw nothing in "Friday" to indicate any connection with any of
>>the other Future History stories. In fact, in many ways it is
>>inconsistent with the other stories ...
>     It is, however, in the same universe as one of his earlier
> short stories (and damn! for the life of my I can't remember the
> title--and it was even mentioned here, quite recently, I think).
> You know--the one with "Kettle-Belly" Baldwin and the supermen.

You noticed that, too?  Friday is inconsistent, though.  (With its
character handling, internally, too.)  Details.  This ties it,
though, to The Black Pits of Luna and to ...  Gnrf!  I must have
lent out both those books!  The one in a collection with Waldo and
Magic, Inc., wherein aliens take over one's nervous system, and the
agent is one of the first caught.  And I can't remember the name.
The story is a bit like the Star Trek episode where the same happens
to Spock.

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 21:01:09 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@caip.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question

slj@mtung.UUCP (S. Luke Jones) writes:
> Nathan Glasser writes:
>> Also, on the back cover of the edition of TEFL I read, one of the
>> blurbs about LL said "...A man so in love with time that he
>> became his own ancestor..."
>It sounds like they've confused TEFL with "All You Zombies."

All my best Heinlein seems to be lent out!  so this is a question
rather than a statement.  Didn't LL go back in time and impregnate
his own mother the year he was born?  (And, of course, the same
thing happens in AYZ, but more so: the protagonist is his own mother
and father.  And recruiter and drill sergeant, as I remember.)

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 22:12:33 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question

jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes:
>...Didn't LL go back in time and impregnate his own mother the year
>he was born?

Nope. She specifically mentions she only plays around when she's
safe. For 1916 this apparently means when she's pregnant. I think
the back cover blurb, if not just brain damage, has got to refer to
Laz and Lor, who are female LL clones.  I guess you could argue they
are as much him as any of his clone replacement bodies are. That
would make him his own ancestor, kind of.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 86 00:51:59 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: The Cat Who Walks through Walls

  Does anyone know when Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks through Walls_
will be out in paperback?  I have been waiting nearly a year for it
now.  I own almost everything else Heinlein has written, but I DON'T
buy hardback books.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1986, 17:16:58 EDT
From: RICHARD P KING <RPK@IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: Comments & questions about Stanislaw Lem

I've just returned from vacation to lay another load of stuff about
Lem on you.

Guy Schafer noted that Lem has had many different people translating
his work, each once, never to be heard from again.  This is true
except for the greatest of them all, Michael Kandel.  It was Kandel
who translated _The Cyberiad_, _The Futurological Congress_, _Mortal
Engines_, _A Perfect Vacuum_, and _The Star Diaries_.  With
Christine Rose he also translated _Memoirs Found in a Bathtub_.

I recommend all of these books.  They are the reason I became a fan
of Lem.  (Actually, I don't entirely recommend _Memoirs ..._, only
its introduction.)

There are 8 works that I know to be by other translators, each work
a different translator.  _The Invincible_, with its Polish to German
to English translation reads like German translated into English.
Page after page of short declarative sentences.  _Solaris_, with its
Polish to French to English translation is better, but still not
entirely satisfactory.  At times it's rather choppy, at others the
dialogue scans poorly.  The rest (_The Chain of Chance_, Further
Memoirs of a Space Traveler_, _His Master's Voice_, _The
Investigation_, _Return from the Stars_, _Tales of Pirx the Pilot_)
were all translated directly from Polish to English, and are clearly
superior.  Still, they lack something.  Of course, not reading
Polish, I have no way of knowing what each translator was given to
work with.

I recommend these books with reservations.  The Pirx and Tichy
stories are good.  All the rest have something worth exploring.  But
they can be rather difficult, and some are kinda dull.  _Solaris_ is
regarded by some people as his greatest work, but then there's the
translation.  I suggest trying the stuff translated by Kandel first.

Guy's claim that Lem's work leaves almost no memory trace in his
mind strikes me as peculiar.  I admit to having little recollection
of the specific paranoid ravings in the body of _Memoirs Found in a
Bathtub_, but I still clearly recall the marvelous introduction; I
read that book once, 7 years ago.  It was 9 years ago that I read
"The Mask" in _Mortal Engines_; it's a very sad story.  I read _The
Star Diaries_ 10 years ago; who could forget fantastic lines like
"I'm not myself"?  (I'm not kidding here.  In the context in which
it is used, it is both shocking and hilarious.)  Another story which
occasionally comes back to haunt me is "Terminus" from _Tales of
Pirx the Pilot_; it has been 6 years since I read that one and I
still haven't settled for myself the questions it raised.

As to the name of the "woman" who drinks LOX in _Solaris_, it is
Rheya.  (For that, rest assured, I did not rely on memory.)

Here's a little trivia question for you.  Who invented the technique
called morphological analysis, which is discussed in _The
Futurological Congress_?

Richard.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1986 11:31 CST
From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock)
Subject: BOLO's

   Does anyone know for sure how many novels and short stories there
are dealing with the BOLO fighting machines?  I have read one
anthology of them, which contained some of the best known works (eg.
"The Last Command"), and yesterday I found a new novel (at least I
assume that it's new!) by Keith Laumer called "Rogue Bolo".  While I
haven't had the chance to read it completely yet, it seems to follow
the same style as the other short stories I've read.
   What I wish to find out is, does anyone know of any other BOLO
novels by Laumer or any other authors?  I would really like to
collect and read the entire series.  Thanks for any information you
might have.

John B. Geis

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 16:21:32 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: trashy bestsellers

I happen to like some of Anthony's work; there was an on-target
comment here recently that the early books in any of his series are
better than the later ones. However, this

>As to the absolute trash part, say what? The Xanth books are, of
>late, routinely on the paperback bestseller lists. I really don't
>think that any book that is totally incompetent trash could hope to
>achieve that status.

is ridiculous. What gets on the bestseller list is a matter of
marketing, name recognition, and the Mencken(?) axiom that nobody
ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
The best example of this is NAKED CAME THE STRANGER (1969), which
was written to be deliberately dreadful (as opposed, perhaps, to
Jacqueline Susann or Harold Robbins) and became a bestseller. (NCtS
isn't even the first time this was tried; "The Sweetheart of Sigma
Chi" was written to be so disgustingly saccharine as to turn the
fashion of the time for syrupy songs but became immensely popular
itself.)

As another example, consider the Gor books, which have gotten ever
more popular as they've gone downhill (which started when Norman
refused to let Ballantine cut a word of his deathless (undead?)
prose and walked to DAW). Ironically, this trash can be said to be
published in a good cause (the DAW line is uneven partly because of
high fraction of new authors it brings out, among whom have been
such winners as C J Cherryh; Wollheim has stated that each Gor book
gives him financial room to publish up to six unknowns).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86  22:20:01 EDT
From: Flash%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Rick Flashman)
Subject: Brief question on Terminator.

Anybody know what is the general plot to "Terminator II" and when it
will hit the theaters?

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1986, 09:47:04 EDT
From: NICHOLAS J SIMICICH <NJS@IBM.COM>
Subject: Some Startrek Stuff

The following is some information which others had extracted from
various named sources relative to Star Trek IV.  I take no
responsibility for the accuracy of the information.

Star Trek Stuff:  ********Minor Spoilers********

Here is the paragraph about Star Trek IV. It is from
Paramount Pictures Newsletter June, 1986
By the way for info on the newsletter:

    Paramount Pictures
    1 Gulf & Western Plaza
    New York, NY 10023
    Att: Publicity, N.N.

Star Trek IV

The People of San Francisco are used to some pretty strange sights.
Even so, residents of the city by the bay were taken aback by the
recent sighting of seven strangely familiar visitors.  But what were
Admiral James T. Kirk, Spock, "Bones," Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and
Uhura doing tramping around San Francisco in 1986?  Don't they
belong in the 23rd Century?  Well, they do, but in "STAR TREK IV:
THE VOYAGE HOME," the former crew of the late Starship Enterprise
travel back in time as they undertake a vital mission on
Contemporary Earth.  It seems that there's a planet-threatening
problem in the future, and the only way to solve it is to return to
the past.  This latest chapter in the phenomenally successful series
of motion pictures based on the classic television series is
produced by Harve Bennett and directed by Leonard Nimoy.  The
centuries-spanning screenplay is written by Harve Bennett and
Nicholas Meyer from a story by Steve Meerson and Peter Krikes, based
upon "Star Trek" created by Gene Roddenberry.  Ralph Winter is the
executive producer of the film, which stars William Shatner, Leonard
Nimoy, DeForest Kelly, and the rest of the original cast.  Look for
"STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME" this Christmas.

P.S. The picture shows Kirk, McCoy, and Spock in one shot.

Here is some more info:

The following text is copied from an article by Glenn Lovell in the
San Jose Mercury News, dated June 15, 1986.(This may be the whole
article)

  "Star Trek IV," various sources report, picks up where "Star Trek
III: The Search for Spock" left off - on the planet Vulcan, where
Spock, dead since the closing scenes of "Star Trek III," has his
"katra" (life's essence) restored by High Priestess T'Lar (Dame
Judith Anderson.
  Back in one piece but still obviously out of it, Spock submits to
three months of "re-education" and then joins the "Star Trek"
regulars (DefOrest Kelley as Bones, George Takei as Sulu, Walter
Koenig as Checkov, James Doohan as Scotty) as they journey back to
fleet headquarters in a commandeered Klingon ship. (Remember, the
Starship Enterprise was destroyed in "III."  Kirk, distraught over
the murder of his son on the planet Genesis, rigged the Enterprise
to self-destruct, then beamed aboard his Klingon captors.)
  At the start of "IV," Kirk and company are on their way home to
"face what could be serious charges" for disobeying orders.  It is
while in transit that Spock's Vulcan ears detect a strange signal,
warning of an immense object heading toward Earth.  Said object will
eventually cause a great cloud cover to block out the sun and
threaten all life forms on the planet.  Spock eventually cracks the
coded message: It's a whale's song.
  But whales have been extinct for centuries, the victims of 20th
century greed and carelessness...
  So, as they did in the celebrated "City on the Edge of Forever"
episode of the TV series, Kirk and crew beam themselves back in time
- on a mission to save Earth from itself.  The unfolding drama,
we're assured, will combine suspense, romance and lots of
culture-clash comedy.
  Spock must also come to terms with his human mother, Amanda, who
is played by veteran actress Jane Wyatt "in a brief but unimportant
scene."  Wyatt originated this role in the 1967 "Star Trek" TV
episode "Journey to Babel."

Well that's it.  there's much more to the article, but no more plot
stuff.  Nimoy is quoted as saying that "It's a lot more of a romp,
like 'Raiders of the Lost Ark.'  We zigzag a lot with this one.  And
Spock is on screen a helluva lot more.  He's alive, but there's a
question of his mental capacity.  You'll see Spock evolve into a
three- dimensional character this time"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jul 86 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #190
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 190

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 21:30:54 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts

I know this is going to be heretical to some, but my favorite work
by Tolkien is his translation of Gawain and the Green Knight. I
found it extremely readable, particularly aloud, and it brought new
life to the old story.

I'm probably a touched biased, since I had recently read John Myers
Myers' "Silverlock", with its wonderful recasting of the story from
Bertilac's point of view.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 08:25:04 GMT
From: harry@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Harry I. Rubin)
Subject: Re: The One Ring

The text says that Sauron invested much of his power into the One
Ring and makes clear that this is why the Ring is so powerful.  The
other Rings of Power, the Nine, the Seven, and especially the Three,
are also powerful, but where did their power come from?  If the
power of the One came from Sauron, then it seems reasonable that the
power of the other Rings must have come from their forgers.  That
is, the power in the Rings does not seem to be newly created by the
forgers in the making, but only moved from the forgers themselves to
the Rings being made.  So, there would be some of Sauron's power in
the Seven and the Nine; presumably this is what allows Sauron to
control those Rings.  But the Seven and the Nine also contain some
of the power of the Elves who, with Sauron, forged them.  This is
what makes the Rings business such a good scam for Sauron: through
them he was able to in effect steal part of the power of the Elven
forgers and use it to his own ends!

When Sauron gave a Ring away, it seems he was able to influence the
wearer of the Ring, but not directly control him.  Of course, the
properties of the Ring itself, invested by its forgers, also had a
strong influence.  (The wearers of the Nine, guided by their own
hearts and influenced by their Rings, accepted Sauron's influence to
such an extent that they eventually became Shadows of Sauron, the
Nazgul, at which point Sauron could control them directly.  But
while they were men, Sauron did not control them directly.)

If Sauron had had some of the Seven or Nine in his direct possesion,
would he have been able to wield that power directly, or only the
portion of the power he had placed in the Rings but not the power
invested by the Elves?

Finally, when a Ring is destroyed, is the power in it released to
return to its forger, or is the power destroyed utterly?  From the
consequences of Frodo's destruction of the One Ring it would seem
that the power is destroyed utterly.

Comments?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 19:10:00 GMT
From: pointer@hpccc
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

caip!milne writes:
> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits'
> arrows,

I beg your pardon. didn't Wormtongue finally crack under Saruman's
abuse and slit the wizard's throat when they were leaving the Shire?

Agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well taken...
evidently a Maia is quite mortal.

dave@hplabs

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 20:15:03 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien for lesser enthusiasts

avr@purdue.UUCP (Andrew V. Royappa) writes:
>Incidentally, for those who have already read the Silmarillion, I
>have this question: was Numenor supposed to be Atlantis ? Obvious
>similarities aside, Tolkien at one point (near the end of the
>Akallabeth) calls it "Atalante" (umlaut on the e).

   Yes, it is Atlantis. Certainly the similarities are quite
amazing. Someone once called "Akallabeth" the longest build-up to a
pun in history!
   (P.S. it is interesting to note that the stem `lanta', meaning
fall also appears in the poem/song "Namarie" in LotR.)

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 86 20:28:31 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Sauron as Vala

sliu@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Sliu) writes:
>Where does it say that Ungoliant is a Maia?

   It doesn't in do so *explicitely*, but it is made clear
indirectly. First, when she is introduced in the Silmarillion it is
stated that she was "a spirit of evil that came from Outside".
Second, all spirits from Outside(i.e. beyond Ea) were either Maiar
or Valr, and she most clearly was *not* a Vala. QED, she was a Maia.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 16:01:38 GMT
From: infopro!rf@caip.rutgers.edu (Randolph Fritz)
Subject: Numenor & Atlantis

Andrew V. Royappa (purdue!avr) asks,
>was Numenor supposed to be Atlantis?

Well, yes and no.  The name is, of course, a pun on "Atlantis".  At
some other points, I believe he references Avallone (final "e"
pronounced), which is likely a pun on "Avalon", Arthur's kingdom.
(Tolkien did like multi-lingual puns!) The fall of Numenor, as told,
probably owes more to a recurring dream Tolkien had, one of a great
wave sweeping over an island.  In Celtic mythology, there are
stories about a drowned country; in Welsh (a language which Tolkien
knew & loved) and in Breton.  The Breton accounts, of a land called
Ys, speak of a land which sunk so that only the highest towers (or
was it mountains?) remain above water, much like Numenor.

Now, these are only guesses.  I'd have to check references to even
ensure that I've given proper accounts of the myths.  I remember
*no* details of the Welsh myths at all & they're more likely to be
Tolkien's sources than Breton myths.  Without checking I am not
entirely sure that Avallone was some place on Numenor.  If one were
to make a serious attempt to locate the "source" of Numenor, a
careful reading of Tolkien's published letters would be a good place
to start.  There has been a fair amount of commentary on Tolkien
published; a search might reveal that someone has already dealt with
this question, accurately and at length.

Randolph Fritz
UUCPnet: {ihnp4,topaz}!infopro!rf

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 13:15:30 GMT
From: bonnie!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald Zasadzinski)
Subject: The Lays of Beleriand

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>It is only in the Lays of Beleriand

Are you saying that _The Lays of Beleriand_, the third book in "The
History of Middle Earth" by JRR/Christopher Tolkien is in print? If
it is, could you tell me where I can get a copy? I have just
finished Lost Tales part two, and am waiting expectantly for the
third book.

Thanks in advance to anyone that has information on this.  Send me
mail at:

ihnp4!bonnie!ron OR ihnp4!moss!ron

U.S. mail: Ron Zasadzinski, 22 Crestview Terrace, Whippany NJ 07981

Ron

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 14:45:14 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: ...and yet more Rings...

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Personally, I am inclined to believe that Bombadil was Iluvatar, at
>least in some sense.  The quote above is explained very easily: the
>speaker does not know who Bombadil is (this is admitted), and so
>underestimates his power.

   I sincerely doubt it, there are other passages that indicate that
Bombadil is a limited, not an infinite being. Like when the Hobbits
ask if the land belongs to him, and are told that nobody owns the
land. I rather think that he is a Maia in his *original* state, not
"humanized" like Gandalf and the wizards. He seems to date back to
the time when the Valar and Maiar dwelt in Middle Earth, before they
moved to Aman. I believe that he simply decided he didn't want to
leave, and continued to wander around Middle Earth on his own. This
would indeed make him Eldest, since he *was* there before any of the
Children of Illuvatar, and he had no father, having come from
Outside.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 14:57:37 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Galadriel's power

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>According to the only descriptions I've seen of this attack, it was
>Galadriel who threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, and cleansed its
>dungeons.
>  Which means it must have been her own power (and possibly
>Celeborn's) which did so.  This seems to me to suggest that she
>herself, even unaided, possessed great power, well beyond the
>measure of the Sylvan Elves around her (most of the Elves of the
>Galadrim were Sylvan).  In fact, even though she was not a Maia,
>she seems to have had power on their scale.  Either this was
>intrinsic to the Noldor, being among the highest of the high,
>raised by the Valar well above the levels of the Elves who remained
>in Middle Earth; or perhaps it was in her family, starting with
>Feanor, whose craft attained things that even Maiar seemed unable
>to do.

   I believe that this kind of power came with being a High Elf,
though in varying degrees, according to the native ability of each
individual. Look at Feanor and Celebrimbor and Finrod and even
Elrond!  And those like the elf who killed a Balrog during the
escape from Gondolin. I would hardly say they are the equal of
Maiar, though there seems to be considerable overlap between the
weakest maiar and the most powerful elves. The main thing to
remember is that power in Tolkien comes from inside, and is an
expression of a being's inner nature. Thus any powerful being may be
able to do things others cannot, simply because of some unique
aspect of thier inner fire. Thus Sauron cannot make Palantiri, not
because he is *weaker* than Feanor, but because he is oriented in a
completely different direction.

   P.S. Galadriel is *not* a descendant of Feanor, Gil-galad was the
last of his line in Middle Earth. She was decended from Finarphin, I
think(or at least one of the other major Houses of the Noldor).

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 15:07:34 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>Why do you choose the fall of Numenor, in particular?  It seems
>unrelated to Morgoth's creatures.

   I didn't "choose" it. I was saying that he *lost* much of his
power at that point. It is clearly stated that his body was
destroyed along with Numenor, and since he had put great power into
that body, it took a lot for him to make another. Indeed he was no
longer able to control the form his body took, instead it was
determined by his inner nature. Then came the second disaster, he
lost the Ring to the Last Alliance, and it took him *many* years to
recover from that loss enough to return to return to the West and
begin operations there again.

>I know the section of "Unfinished Tales" you are referring to, and
>it doesn't appear to me to indicate any such thing.  It *does*
>illustrate that Sauron was a campaigner who would take advantage of
>any existing obstacle to his enemies -- but I knew that already.
>What Gandalf seemed to mean was that the forces of the West would
>have had to split between Mordor and Erebor if Smaug were still
>there, or they would have had a large flank open to the dragon.
>This would have worked nicely to Sauron's advantage.  But there is
>a considerable difference between taking advantage of something,
>and controlling it, and there is no solid indication, in this
>section or elsewhere that I know of, that Sauron actually had
>control.

   Well, unfortunately these passages are somewhat ambiguous, so I
suspect the answer will not be found. Certainly, I suspect that
Sauron the Master of Trickery could well *fool* a dragon into doing
what he wanted. But that is not exactly control.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 86 22:26:38 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Orcs

Sarima writes:
>the orcs], like the Elves..., are reincarnated!

Hold it, Stan...Who says Elves are reincarnated?  I haven't read all
the Unfinished Tales, etc., but I always thought once an Elf died,
he was stuck in the Halls of Mandos for all time.  No?

Sarek (Garrett Fitzgrald)
st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 86 23:53:26 -0100
Subject: Magic in the LOTR

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
> I think that the relationship between capabilities and Intrinsic
>Nature in the magic of Middle Earth shows up here. Since magic
>flows from the soul, what can be done by any entity is determined
>by its inner nature. Feanor had within his soul a fierce creative
>fire enabling him to make many things, with the help of the Valar.

I'm uncomfortable when I read something like this because it seems
much too specific.  It seems to add something to the LOTR that I
don't think belongs there and which I find unnecessary.

I don't think that this view of magic can be justified on the basis
of the LOTR.  I don't even think you can justify a notion of soul or
of Intrinsic Nature.  This is not to say it's entirely wrong, but
"soul" and "intrinsic nature" say too much.  Moreover, you can't, in
my view, conclude anything from "magic flows from the soul" since
this whole notion of soul, let alone magic flowing from it, is
unfounded.  "Soul" is an ill-defined notion in any case, as is
"inner nature".

Here is another approach.  I already knew that Feanor was skillful,
proud, and inventive; I knew he could create things that others
could not, and that they probably wouldn't have though of in the
first place.  How does it help my understanding to attribute these
things to a soul or Intrinsic Nature?  That different people are
capable of different things seems an entirely commonplace
observation with no need for this theoretical apparatus.  Moreover,
what shows that your's is the right theory?  It's certainly not the
only way of explaining the matter.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 06:41:15 GMT
From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: Re: Orcs

ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>Who says Elves are reincarnated?

Elves, of course.  Who else?

>I haven't read all the Unfinished Tales, etc., but I always thought
>once an Elf died, he was stuck in the Halls of Mandos for all time.
>No?

Some claim that the Elf named Glorfindel that Frodo and company met
about a week after crossing the Mitheithel was the same as the
Glorfindel who died in battle with a Balrog in Cirith Thoronath,
Eagle's Pass.  Most of us younger folk are rather doubtful, to put
it mildly.  The elders among us say that one's term in the Halls of
Mandos is related to the quality of the deeds in one's life.  This
sounds to me suspiciously like what you call `scare tactics'; I
prefer arguments that do not rely upon a `higher authority'.  (On
the other hand, Bregil says that it was ever thus: youth questions
the wisdom of the ages, until they too are elders and a new youth
begins challenging _them_.  Well, we shall see.)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jul 86 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #191
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1986 12:09 EDT
From: Alan J. Berkson <ALBQC@CUNYVM>
Subject: Tom Bombadil

What bothers me the most is that Tolkien spent the least time
developing probably the most intriguing character: Tom Bombadil.
Who is this guy? Why is it that he can put on the one ring with no
effects?  And he's so old, he makes Treebeard look like a toddler.

Alan J. Berkson
Queens College Academic Computer Center

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 15:38:02 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Evil

You know, having read about Sauron as ultimate evil (remember,
Morgoth did not come up in LoTR), it really scares me what he must
have been like WITH the Ring. If Morgoth was WORSE than that, I'd
rather not know that much about him....

Sarek
st801179%brownvm.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 86 23:40:31 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The LOTR vs. other sources

>In this discussion of Rings, it has generally been assumed that
>reliable information about Middle Earth can be obtained by looking
>at sources outside the LOTR, such as the Silmarillion or the
>Unfinished Tales, and that the most reliable information can be
>obtained by asking Tolkien himself.  This is a convenient point of
>view, since it gives us more material for discussion and makes its
>interpretation easier, but I feel that it is somewhat of an
>oversimplification.  We do not normally consider tales, myths,
>legends, or even personal accounts such as those that formed the
>basis of the LOTR, to be completely accurate descriptions of past
>events; and yet, with the exception of those parts that are clearly
>metaphorical, such as the creation story, we do not apply these
>standards to Tolkien's work.

My own practise has been to try to take the most authoritative work
I know for the period I'm considering.  For the War of the Ring,
it's LotR and not much else.  Where the different translations in
Unfinished Tales agree, I feel safe in relying on them; also on
sections that simply weren't included in LotR due to space
considerations (Battle of the Fords of Isen, Hunt for the Ring,
Cirion and Eorl, for example).  Of the actual events related in the
Hobbit I'm pretty confident, but given Bilbo's age and experience
when we wrote it, what he reports of things learned from Gandalf,
Elrond, etc., I think need corroboration.  I feel less sure about
relying on Silmarillion, as it seems to me to be more "secondhand"
-- but if it alone discusses the period I'm considering, I don't
really see what else I can do.  The Lays of Beleriand I could hardly
consider an authoritative source, but I really want them more for
their magnificent verse than for references.  Where they agree with
what I've already been told, fine; where they don't, I'll just sit
back and enjoy the word painting.

>. . .  If we treat the tales of the Elder Days as we do most myths,
>we would have to decide that most of what they say cannot be
>interpreted literally. . . . Or, suppose we treated the
>Silmarillion as we do the Illiad.  There, we may accept that there
>was a Trojan War, but we don't then accept that actual gods played
>an important part.

The difference is that we are hundreds upon hundreds of generations
removed from the period of the Illiad and the Trojan Wars.  But in
Middle Earth, even in the Third Age, Elves still live who lived
during much of the period that Mortals called "the Elder Days".
Your argument is still well taken, because memories can change, or
survive incompletely; and the Elves were not in any case given to
frequent discussion of them.  I believe the accounts we read now in
Silmarillion were written by Bilbo (later by Frodo), who had
considerable opportunity to talk with the Elves of Rivendell, at
least a few of whom could remember Gondolin -- but we don't know how
much he actually did, with whom he talked, and of what they talked.
Still, I think we can place a lot more confidence in those tales as
essentially (if perhaps not totally) factual accounts -- much more
than we can place, for instance, in stories of the Trojan Wars.

Messages concerning who intended Bilbo to find the Ring have been
plain, but I don't think they try to be more than conjecture, aided
by the somewhat extra breadth of vision granted by Silmarillion et
al.  There is a mystery about the matter (aided and abetted by
Gandalf's closeness) that begs to be solved.  People will naturally
try to do so, and an accurate answer would, I'm afraid, destroy the
mysterious appeal (how often can you read a detective story?).
However, given that confirmation is quite impossible, I think we're
in no danger of that.  So I think that this one, at least, of LotR's
attractive mysteries will remain an attractive mystery.

>Another example comes to mind.  Someone recently described Bombadil
>as "a Valar who has gone to ground".  Perhaps Tolkien too says as
>much.  But this is more than Elrond tells us: "Iarwain Ben-adar we
>called him, oldest and fatherless."  Here, Bombadil is just
>himself, sui generis.  If we now classify him with the Valar, we
>impoverish the world.

(We cannot classify Bombadil.  We haven't the resources to do it.
We can look at him, then at some of the powers that are said to have
been around forever, and we can consider what our favourite answer
would be, but that's all we can do.  Finally, we will always have to
ask whether our preference is in fact correct, and there is nowhere
we can go for an answer.)

The following argument notwithstanding, I quite agree.  The lure of
the unknown is often a thing enjoyable in itself, and with all the
influence that the Elder Days exert on the Third Age, plenty of
unknown is available.  And it is unfortunate that the answers may
not be as pleasant as was the lure of finding them.

I think it is important to distinguish between the hobbits'
viewpoint that we see in LotR, and the much more Elvish viewpoint of
the "earlier" works.  I think that of all the peoples in Middle
Earth, it is the hobbits who are most like us, and with whom we can
most empathise, so to a considerable degree, their feelings and
points of view are most natural to us.  It is much harder to
understand the points of view from which Elvish accounts are
written.  Surely this stream of tragedies and disappointments cannot
belong to the same gentle, smiling peoples whose beauty so enthralls
the hobbits (and hence, us)?  So I think that the disappointments we
may feel from Silmarillion (I certainly felt some) are at least
partly inherent in the different point of view presented.

(I'm a little surprised you're so disappointed by the creation
story.  I found it a lovely myth, really quite a beautiful concept.
I take it as an Elvish myth, inherited from the days of Valinor,
because I see no basis for more confidence in it than that, but that
makes it no less pretty.  Of the actuality of Valinor itself I think
we can be moderately confident, since artefacts from it (Palantiri,
the Trees) are still present in the Third Age.)

>Moreover, we cannot neglect our own role.  Middle Earth is not just
>what Tolkien gives us, but also what we bring to it.  This is one
>reason why it is possible to find more in it on each rereading: the
>reader has changed.  This is also one reason why I am uncomfortable
>with appeals to Tolkien as the ultimate authority.  We should not
>suppose that every question has an answer and seek endlessly to
>find it.  In the LOTR, much is unknown, even to the Wise.

BRAVO!  A most excellent and necessary point.  Middle Earth is a
world, more so than any from any other work I've ever known.  And as
with the world we know, there are many, many questions to which we
don't have answers, and for which there is no final, omniscient
authority whose answer may comfortably be taken as incontrovertible
Truth.

While Tolkien, as the translator of these writings, must have had
more experiences with them than anybody else (even Christopher), I
quite agree that it doesn't follow that he must know them to the
last detail; and I daresay he had his own opinions on open
questions.  If I am asked which of the two I prefer to believe, LotR
or a possibly contradictory letter from Tolkien, I will say that, in
view of the much greater concentration devoted to LotR, including
criticism and revision, I will prefer LotR.  If LotR is not clear on
a point, I must assume that more solid information is not available
(or it would be in the book).  (Of course, if the letter is all I
really have to go on, then by all means I will choose that.)

(The Witch King's crown, and the cloak he wore, fell to the ground
when Eowyn killed him, and whatever "presence" gave him being was
dissipated.  Both may well have been trampled and smashed as the
battle continued.)

>In sum, I would like to encourage two things.  The first is to pay
>greater attention to the LOTR itself, while still considering the
>other works.  The second is to to try for greater variety in our
>approach to Middle Earth.  The messages I find most useful are
>those that suggest new ways of reading or that let me see things
>I've overlooked.

I will do my best!

Now that I've done with all my little quibbles, I have two words to
say:

I  AGREE!

Alastair Milne

PS. For a bit of perspective on how much difference Elvish longevity
might make, look at the geneology tree in Silmarillion that includes
Elros and Elrond.  From Elrond a line goes down to his daughter
Arwen, with an = sign indicating her marriage to Aragorn.  Now for
Aragorn's descent: starting with Elros, Elrond's half-brother,
crammed into the space available for them are "all the kings of
Numenor, all the kings of Gondor, rangers of Arnor" (essentially),
sharing the stretch of time that, on Elrond's side, is Arwen's
alone.  Is it any wonder that the Elves view the world differently?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jul 86 00:25:32 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The One Ring

>>As far as I know, the Dwarves were always estranged from others,
>>to one degree or another.  They never had, for instance, the
>>immediate friendship that arose between Men and Elves.  Their
>>languages and customs were kept very much to themselves.  But it
>>seems to me that, in the case of the house of Durin at least, the
>>Rings couldn't have increased it that much, or the co-operation
>>with the Elven smiths and the openness of Khazad-Dum would never
>>have occurred.
>   Mind you, this was largely *before* and during the forging of
>the Rings! ...

Thank you for putting it so nicely!  Have you any idea what I twit I
felt half an hour after posting this?  Of course the Ring had
"little" effect in Khazad-dum : it didn't flippin' EXIST yet!

>   I think the Dragons were more under Sauron's control than you
>realize, even if it was subtle, indirect control. Certainly the
>words of Gandalf to the Hobbits in Minas Tirith indicate that *he*
>thought Sauron was in charge of Smaug. It is my belief that Smaug's
>attack on the Lonely Mountain was instigated by Sauron in hopes of
>"liberating" the Ring of Durin. It failed in that purpose, and the
>Ring escaped the mountain. This is supported by Gandalf's statement
>that the misfortunes of the House of Durin were due in large part
>to the malice of Sauron and his lust for the Ring. Certainly the
>Desolation of Smaug was the greatest of these misfortunes!

Gandalf's explanation to the hobbits told me no more than that he
feared what advantage Sauron might make of the dragon's actions.  I
could not take it as a statement that Smaug would heed Sauron's
commands.  I am resisting this suggestion not because of anything
LotR specifically says against it (that I know of), but because LotR
says nothing concrete for it, and the dragons don't seem to me to
fit the pattern of Sauron's servants: too clever and independent at
once -- neither dim and dominable, like the Orcs, nor with their
wills part of his, like the Nazgul.  What's the good of a servant
that requires constant expenditure of real strength just to keep him
servile?

Sending a dragon to "liberate" the Ring sounds to me like great
carelessness on the part of one so wise.  The history of dragons and
the Seven is that the dragons consumed the Rings (by consuming the
dwarves wearing them).  Far better to wait until he had great
strength gathered -- which he was doing anyway, on other accounts --
then beseige Erebor and take what he wanted.  In the event, he was
lucky: Thrain escaped, and in his later wanderings was captured and
taken to Dol Guldur, and the Ring seized from him.  Had he not
escaped, he would have died, and the Ring would either have become
part of Smaug's treasure (by what gentle subtlety would Sauron have
persuaded him to part with it?), or he would have consumed it (with
Thrain, presumably).

(It may, however, be that it was Sauron's servants who arranged for
rumour of Erebor's riches to reach the dragon.  It might endanger
the Ring, but it would most definitely endanger what would, in his
coming War, be a solid, well-defended outpost against him, virtually
eliminating the defense of the passage around northern Mirkwood,
through which his armies could then reach the Vales of Anduin.
Thank you.  I never thought of that before.)

I think you'll find that the loss of Moria and the deaths of so many
leaders were that House's real misfortunes.  Though they made a
great work of it, and were rightly proud of what they built, Erebor
was not their principle residence, and the loss of so many lives in
Smaug's attack was, I think, a greater blow than the loss of the
Mountain (though it was, of course, a hard blow).

My reading of Gandalf's statement was that Sauron had a concealed,
but controlling, hand in all the afflictions the Orcs visited on
Moria, particularly the dreadful Battle of Nanduhirion -- also the
tracking down of various Ringbearer's by Sauron's servants.  Living
in Khazad-dum seemed to give the Dwarves their greatest security,
exile from it their greatest hardship.

>   The way I see it is that Sauron would have *prefered* to regain
>the Seven, but given the choice between letting the Dwarves keep
>them and seeing them destroyed, he prefered the destruction.

Quite logical, I grant you.  I'll have to think about that.

>Besides, he had probably hoped that the Dragons would *collect* the
>Rings, not consume them. After all the greed and avarice of Dragons
>is legendary.

Which makes recovering them afterward a bit tricky.  Besides, as I
said above, it seems rather unlikely to me that he would lay his
plans on so much hope, rather than making certain.  Though I
suppose, if he could get nothing better out of the dragons, it was,
as you say, a choice to be preferred over letting the Dwarves keep
them.

Alastair Milne

PS.  I just thought of this.  Can you imagine one of Sauron's
subtlest servants succeeding in stealing one of those Rings from a
dragon's hoard, followed by the dragon's discovering the loss, and
pursuing to Dol Guldur?  Necromancer vs. Dragon.  Might have burnt
down half of Mirkwood.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jul 86 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #192
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:

            Books - Barnes (2 msgs) & Briarton & Duane &
                    Heinlein (5 msgs) & Piper (2 msgs) &
                    Wilson & The Eye of Argon,
            Films - Books into Movies (3 msgs) &
                    Back to the Future,
            Television - Max Headroom,
            Miscellaneous - Sf Writers' Group

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 08:13:05 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #187

I just re-read Dream Park by Niven and Barnes and would like to find
out about other books Steven Barnes wrote.  I remember a book by him
called Street Lethal but can't find it any more and lost my copy in
the lend it to some one who lends it to someone etc cycle.

Thanks in advance,

Ray Caron

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 86 00:23:18 GMT
From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #187

CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>I just re-read Dream Park by Niven and Barnes and would like to
>find out about other books Steven Barnes wrote.  I remember a book
>by him called Street Lethal but can't find it any more and lost my
>copy in the lend it to some one who lends it to someone etc cycle.

Pournelle mentioned in his column in this month's Byte that he,
Niven, and a third author (I think he said it was Barnes, but I
can't remember for certain) are working on a book together.  You
might check there.

Brent Chapman
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jul 86 14:10 CET
From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Translations

   Recently,I bought a German copy of the 30-year-edition of the
Magazine of F&SF.It included a story by Grendel Briarton called
'Through space and time with Ferdinand Feghoot' which was just half
a page and ,I suppose, meant to be either funny or witty.  If so,the
clue has been completely lost due to translation and the story ended
in the middle of nowhere,leaving an armada of question marks in my
brain.  I tried to translate back to English,yet could not find out
what the clue could have been about.
   Can someone who has a copy in English mail the last few sentences
to me, please?

Thanx in advance,
Michael Maisack (PSST001 at DTUZDV1 in BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 86 08:28:23 GMT
From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: THE DOOR INTO SUNSET

From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>I asked Diane Duane when SUNSET was coming out, and I believe she
>said that it was due at the publishers in October.

   This would mean we won't see the book until about June on next
year :-(. It takes publishers a LONG time to go from a manuscript
into a book.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 14:43:55 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question

> All my best Heinlein seems to be lent out!  so this is a question
> rather than a statement.  Didn't LL go back in time and impregnate
> his own mother the year he was born?  (And, of course, the same
> thing happens in AYZ, but more so: the protagonist is his own
> mother and father.  And recruiter and drill sergeant, as I
> remember.)

LL went back and had carnal knowledge of Maureen Johnson Smith,
true; however, she said she was pregnant at the time with the child
who would be named Theodore Ira Smith.

Luke Jones

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 23:13:30 GMT
From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

The first Dr. Baldwin story is called, I believe "Assignment in
Eternity".  If that's not the title of the story, that's the
collection it is in, along with "Gulf".  The second story referred
to, with the alien invaders, is (I think) "The Puppet Masters".  I
had never considered it as related to AiE and Friday, but I haven't
read it in a few years, so I can't say for certain.

Someone asked if and how RAH affected each of us when we first began
reading SF.  It was his books that got me started reading SF, and
got me totally hooked on the genre.  I've read everything by him
that I could get my hands on, and own almost everything of his that
has been printed in paperback in the last 8 years or so.  RAH books
make up about 20% of my collection.

I like the wide range of his stories.  There are many "juvenile"
stories, such as those of Podkayne, "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel",
and "Rocketship Galileo".  There are also some decidedly
non-juvenile works, including "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "The
Number of the Beast", and "Friday".  Most of his works are up-beat
and humorous.  I read to relax, so I tend to dislike authors such as
Harlan Ellison, who seem to have nothing "up" about them.  RAH suits
me just fine.

There have been charges of sexism in his stories.  All I can say is,
I don't see any of his recent work as sexist.  If his earlier work
is, well, I'd have to point out that those were the attitudes of
society (right or wrong) when the stories were written.  I think
he's done a wonderful job of adapting to the changes of society,
much better than others I can think of.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I _like_ RAH and his stories.
Whatever else they are, they are certainly unforgetable.  Who could
forget someone like Lazarus Long, or Mike HOLMES, or Friday Baldwin?
Even if you forget the names, the characters stick in your mind.

Brent Chapman
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 86 00:15:03 GMT
From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines

Laz went back to a date about 7 or so years after his own birth.  If
you'll remember, when Laz and his mother go off alone, it turns out
Woody (little Laz) is hiding in the back seat of the car, and they
ended up taking him to an amusement park, instead of amusing
themselves (chuckle, chuckle :-).

Brent Chapman
chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!pavepaws!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 19:26:55 GMT
From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona)
Subject: Re: Re: Another Lazarus Long Question

LL went back in time to just before WW I.  While he was there he met
his father, mother, grandfather, sisters, brothers, and himself, a
five year old tike with a *mean* disposition (:-).  Lazarus
considers strangling himself (the five year old) on at least one
occasion, but refrains (thank causality...).  Thus, he doesn't
actually become his own father (at least in TEFL), even though he
does go to bed with his mother (she's already pregnant at the time).

Eric Bivona
USNET:      {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb
ARPA:       ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:      ericb@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 12:46:17 GMT
From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

dbb@rayssdb.UUCP (David B. Bennett) writes:
>Several years ago (6-10?) after having worked my way through
>_Time_Enough_ _For_Love_ a friend of mine (a Heinlein fanatic) told
>me that Lazarus Long appeared in a cameo position in every short
>story in the book _The_Past_Through_Tomorrow:_"Future_History"_
>Stories_ in much the same way as Alfred Hitchcock appeared in the
>movies he directed: a cameo position, unobtrusive, and largely
>hidden - one had to look to see him.

I sincerely doubt it. I recently re-read several of the stories in
TPTT, and it seems unlikely that any of the characters in, for
instance, "The Long Watch" or "Gentlemen, Be Seated" could have been
LL. I suspect, in fact, that he doesn't appear in any recognizable
form in >any< of the shorts; I believe that most of them predate
"Methuselah's Children". I don't think that Heinlein got on to this
business of tying LL into his universes until relatively recently.

Ned Danieley
decvax!duke!ndd

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 06:53:18 GMT
From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Piper

wad@ihlpf.UUCP (Dawson) writes:
>I just finished Space Viking and Little Fuzzy and would wish to
>know the titles of his others books...

The Cosmic Computer [1964] (Reissue of Junkyard Planet)
Crisis in 2140  [1957]
Four Day Planet [1961]
The Fuzzy Papers [1977]   (Book Club compilation of Little Fuzzy,
                                and The Other Human Race)
Fuzzy Sapiens   [1976]    (Reissue of The Other Human Race)
Junkyard Planet [1963]
Little Fuzzy    [1962]
Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen [1965]
Murder in the Gunroom [1953]
The Other Human Race [1964]
A Planet for Texans [1958]
Space Viking [1963]

Sigh, there is one more Fuzzy book by Piper, but it is buried and I
can't remember the title for the life of me...

>books in the fuzzy series have been written by different authors.
>       ie <title unknown>   by Arduth Mayhar.

The Golden Dream: A Fuzzy Odyssey       by Ardath Mayhar

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 86 06:15:00 GMT
From: uok!ricmtodd@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

List of all H. Beam Piper books that I can remember at the moment (I
think I have all of them) Piper wrote 2 main series, the Paratime
series (alternate universes), and the Terro-Human Future History.
Paratime series:
   Paratime (short story collection)
   Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen
THFH series:
   Four-Day Planet
   Uller Uprising
   Federation (s.s collection)
   First Cycle (finished by Michael Kurland after Piper's death)
   Little Fuzzy
   Fuzzy Sapiens              "Trilogy" of Fuzzy novels (obviously)
   Fuzzies and Other People
   The Cosmic Computer
   Space Viking
   Empire (s.s. collection)
Not part of any series:
   The Worlds of H. Beam Piper (s.s. collection)
   Lone Star Planet (cowritten w. J.J.McGuire)

Other authors have written books in Piper's settings. William Tuning
wrote _Fuzzy Bones_ and Ardath Mayhar wrote _Golden Dream: A Fuzzy
Odyssey_. _Golden Dream_ builds on the explanation of the Fuzzies'
origins in _Fuzzy Bones_.  Supposedly John Carr wrote a book called
_Great King's War_ (sequel to _Lord Kalvan_), but I haven't seen it
in the bookstores around here. Also, Jerry Pournelle is working on a
sequel to Space Viking which reportedly be out Real Soon Now. (It's
been coming out Real Soon Now for over 5 years now :-) ) As for more
info about the man Piper, you can find it in the introductions to
_Empire_,_Paratime_,and _Federation_.

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokvax!uok!ricmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 10:33:06 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: F. Paul Wilson

I've been following the discussion on F. Paul Wilson with some
interest over the past few weeks, and now seems to be a good time to
ask if anyone out there can supply me with a list of books that he's
written. I've read both "The Keep" and "Tomb", but I don't know of
any other books.  Can anybody help me?

Thanks in advance,
Jim Gavin.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 04:17:40 GMT
From: sco!ericg@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Griswold of QA)
Subject: _The_Eye_of_Argon_

Have any of you netlanders had the opportunity to attend an
_Eye_of_Argon_ reading?

Better yet, does anyone have an electronic copy of this "gem" to
send away to a now loyal fan.

I sure hope it ain't copyrighted.

Eric Griswold
Santa Cruz, Ca.
{ihnp4, cithep, amd}!sco!ericg

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 86 03:01:40 GMT
From: aecom!mkaplan@caip.rutgers.edu (Marc Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

   What I'd like to see is the two part story "Kinsman/Millenium",
by Ben Bova. (Whenever I say his name to friends, I only get a shrug
-- is it me or them??????).  Kinsman would offer viewers the chance
to root for a good guy who can still be imperfect.  And as long as
we're doing moon stories, how about "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress";
or maybe not, we don't want to give the russians a good idea.

Marc Kaplan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 08:13:05 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #187

In continung the list of books to movies I can't believe no one
mentioned Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, being acclaimed as the
best Sf series of all time by the Hugo awards qualifies it.

Ray Caron

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 16:57:59 GMT
From: zaphod!bobd@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Dalgleish)
Subject: Re: Books into movies

Let us also not forget Dune :-)

But seriously folks. . .  Movies and books are different media; they
must be perceived and enjoyed differently.  It is very difficult to
turn a book into a movie (witness Dune).  Some of it is the
visualisation, some is the amount of material to be covered.  Short
stories often translate better than novels, often because less has
to be cut and the plot suffers less.

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>6. Brain Wave   Poul Anderson

   Perhaps a good Twilight Zone episode.

>8. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
>Stephen R.  Donaldson (All 6 books -- but it would be about 14
>hours long)

   Similar to War and Peace (the Russian version).  There is just
   too much material here.

>9. Gulf  Robert A. Heinlein

   I agree on this one.
>11. Almost anything by Roger Zelazny

   Not quite.  Remember _Damnation_Alley_?  However, the Dilvish
   stories (and, of course, Unicorn Variations) would make
   acceptable movies.

Bob Dalgleish
...ihnp4!{alberta!}sask!zaphod!bobd

------------------------------

Date: 10 July 1986 09:18:49 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson            )
Subject: Re: Back to the Future

   I saw "Back to the Future" in the theater and on video, and I
don't think I saw "to be continued" at the end of the theater
showing. I did see it at the end of the video, so maybe there really
is going to be a sequel.

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 20:28:58 GMT
From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

tmca@utastro.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes:
>Max Headroom is a computer model of the hero of a single, hour long
>film that was first shown on British television (Channel Four)
>about 18 months ago.  There is no drama series of Max Headroom's
>adventures, but the electronic...

  One interesting Headroom "fun fact":

  Apparently he was a reporter originally (and went by a different
name) when he broke the story on *blipverts*, thirty-second ads
squeezed into three seconds, real-time.  Unfortunately he was killed
for this, smashing into a sign that read "Max. Headroom 6 M." He was
resurrected with the new name....Max Headroom. The rest is history.
Note: this info is second-hand, as I haven't been able to get a
videotape of Max, as I can't get Cinemax, (hint hint....I have
several "Prisoner" episodes...)

Brian Bishop
Bishop@Usc-Ecl
Bishop@Usc-Oberon
(uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol)!oberon!bishop

------------------------------

Date: 10 July 1986 09:18:49 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson            )
Subject: Re: SF Writers

   As for a writer's group, I heartily welcome the idea. I've got a
notebook full of ideas for sci-fi adventures, fantasy epics,
post-holocaust stories, etc., plus a couple of half-written rough
drafts laying around, so any advice on how to turn all that into
something people will want to read is much needed.

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm
p.s. Does anyone know if the "Writers of the Future" contest will be
extended into the next year?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jul 86 0944-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #193
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 193

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 86 21:46:30 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR

pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes:
>It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters
>or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice between
>Good and Evil.
>
>The missing group is the Orcs.
>
>Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil?
>It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to
>repent, or even to choose.

I'm not sure exactly what choosing between Good and Evil means to
you, so I find hard to observe whether the Orcs were allowed the
choice or not.

Orcs seem to have fallen into either of two situations in LotR:
either under Sauron's or Saruman's thumb (all the Mordorian orcs,
particularly the Uruks), or relatively independent, like the tribes
in dens in the northern Misty Mountains.  However, there wasn't
terribly much difference between them.  The dominated ones were more
blindly driven by their masters' wills, and among other things, this
made them cooperate better (or at least, less badly).  Yet even
they, in the absence of other enemies, would turn one tribe against
another, and even one Orc against another within the tribes --
consider the fighting between southern, northern, and Mordorian
tribes when Saruman's raid captured Merry and Pippin, and the
eventual slaughter between Shagrat's and Gorbag's garrisons.  The
independent ones (the northerly tribes) would raid and rob for their
survival, and appear to have delighted in tormenting captives, if we
can take as accurate the reports of what happened to Thorin and
Company, and the revenge sought by Elladan and Elrohir for their
mother's torment.  They were as much a danger, on their own account,
to anybody else as those under domination were on their masters'
accounts.

But never, from either camp, do we see an Orc coming to the West, or
even just fighting for his own independence, neither to do to
others, nor to be done to by them (the Ents, and the Rohirrim, both
wanted simply to be left out of war against Sauron).  And the
battles we see against Orcs are caused, exclusively as far as I can
remember, by Orc attacks and invasions.  And even if some weren't,
it seems to me that after 9000 years or more of the same behaviour
from Orcs, I think one is justified in assuming the next Orc one
finds will act in the same fashion as the thousands of others.

So I think the Orcs, as far as it was possible for them to do so,
had cast their own lots.  Obviously a great many of them had no will
in the matter whatsoever: when the Ring was destroyed, just as the
Captains of the West were expecting a final, hopeless battle before
the Morannon, and Sauron either perished or became powerless, the
Orcs suddenly went mindless, wandering witlessly and killing
themselves.  With Sauron's will removed from them, nothing was left.

I hope this deals at least partly with what you had in mind.
Personally, I see the Orcs as being almost biological "machines",
without a real existence of their own, and a choice between Good and
Evil was not theirs to make.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 19:03:28 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ungoliant as a Maia

To my mind, Ungoliant (and therefore Shelob) is one of those
creatures that we haven't the resources to classify.  Even if she
(it?) was one of the Ainur, that doesn't help very much, because we
have no exhaustive list of all the beings that were Ainur.  We know
there were Valar and Maiar; we do not know that there was nothing
else (in fact, Elvish legend suggests the contrary, speaking of
Ainur that never entered Ea).  Furthermore, though we have a list of
all the Valar of whom the Eldar were aware, we do not know for
certain that there were no others, unknown to them.

It therefore seems no more possible to pin down Ungoliant than to
pin down Tom Bombadil.  And I'm not at all sure that, were it
possible, I'd want to do so.  A little remaining mystery makes the
sense of the exotic stronger.

Does anybody know more about the name than just that it seemed to be
Sindarin for "spider" or "giant spider?" (As in Cirith Ungol, the
Spider's Pass (evidently Frodo's Elvish was not quite up to that) )?

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 86 19:31:59 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Was Westernesse "Atlantis"?

One has to be extremely careful in drawing conclusions on the basis
of apparent "cognates".  Usually they are not cognates at all
(English did not, after all, exist at the time), but declensions or
conjugations that by coincidence resemble words in other languages.
To cite an example a little closer to home, German has the words
"wo" and "wer" (pron. "voh" and "vehr").  "wo", however, means
"where", not "who"; and "wer" (you guessed it) means "who", not
"where".  Apparently close, but not actually so.  I should imagine
that "Atalante" has similar roots.

(I am not saying that the identity was not there -- I don't know
either way.  But a supposed a cognate of "Atalante" is not adequate
evidence. )

I guess another example might be "Eldar" itself.  Because of their
age, and the fact that they were the first people to awaken, it is
tempting to think the word means "Elders".  But it doesn't: it is
simply one of the Elves' names for themselves.  (Silmarillion
suggests it is derived from the word "El", meaning "star", which,
according to Elvish legend, covered the night sky when they first
awoke, and which they came to love.)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 20:48:19 GMT
From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Death of a Maia?

pointer@hpccc writes:

>> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits'
>> arrows,
>I beg your pardon.  Didn't Wormtongue finally crack under Saruman's
>abuse and slit the wizard's throat when they were leaving the
>Shire?
>Agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well taken...
>evidently a Maia is quite mortal.

A related question/point here.  When Saurman was killed (yes, it was
Wormtongue), the following was noticed,

   "...about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising
   slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale
   shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill.  For a moment it
   wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold
   wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh disolved into nothing."

Now, to me it seems pretty obvious that Saruman, a Maia, was looking
to Manwe and the other Valar for permission to return to Aman and
was denied.  The question I have is where did he go then?  Out of
the circles of the world, like Melkor?  Did he truely "die"?  Also
note that the same sort of thing happened to Sauron.  If you don't
think it was Manwe and the other Valar, was it Iluvatar?

The above quote is probably copyright by George Allen & Unwin Ltd.

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ont.  Canada
{utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!whatnot!jrsheridan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 21:07:28 GMT
From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Galadriel's power

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>>According to the only descriptions I've seen of this attack, it
>>was Galadriel who threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, and cleansed
>>its dungeons.  Which means it must have been her own power (and
>>possibly Celeborn's) which did so.  This seems to me to suggest
>>that she herself, even unaided, possessed great power, well beyond
>>the measure of the Sylvan Elves around her (most of the Elves of
>>the Galadrim were Sylvan).
>
>P.S. Galadriel is *not* a descendant of Feanor, Gil-galad was the
>last of his line in Middle Earth. She was descended from Finarphin,
>I think(or at least one of the other major Houses of the Noldor).

Galadriel was descended from Finarphin and was considered "the
greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe".  However, she is also
described as "the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth,
[she] was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or
counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in RESISTANCE (especially
in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive ACTION" [Note that the
capitalized words were italicized in the text Unfinished Tales].  I
would tend to believe it was more Celeborn's power that destroyed
the walls.  Comments?

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ont.  Canada
{utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!whatnot!jrsheridan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 86 19:51:19 GMT
From: context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford)
Subject: Hobbits et al.

While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to
some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other
semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan
Forest and perhaps Pukel-men.  Do any of the more erudite have
explanations?

Also, why are the Eagles not reckoned as one of the significant
races in Middle Earth when they are able to speak and were major
forces in both the Battle of Five Armies and the battle before the
gates of Mordor?

Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings?

Ron Blanford

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jul 86 01:57:53 -0300
From: Ady Wiernik   <ady%taurus.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Sauron and the Dragons (and Balrogs too...)

Regardless of actual tactics used by Sauron, we should remember that
he DID have the ability to control Dragons to some extent: Dragons
were the bombers of Morgoths army (cf. Silmarilion, Of Tour and the
Fall of Gondolin, pp. 297, "and with them came dragons of the brood
of Glaurung..."), and Sauron, who was Morgoths General, must have
had a way to direct their operations. It might be argued that
Morgoth was intelligent enough so not to give his General a complete
control over his units (so he would not be able to usurp his
position), but that raises some tough questions in battle
management. I don't believe that a Dragon would cooporate in
organized warfare unless he's a bit scared of the general involved.

Now for a new subject - it seems to me that rule goes like "whoever
kills a Balrog dies in the process". Two prime examples I remember
are Gandalf (which, as I understand it, died in the combat but was
returned to Earth) and the two Balrogs slain in the battle of
Gondolin: Gothmog slain by Ecthelion (in the square of the King) and
the nameless Balrog slain by Glorfindel in the Cirith Toronoath. Any
other examples (either for or against this theory) ?

Ady Wiernik
ady@taurus.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 86 01:23:12 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@caip.rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

>> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits'
>> arrows,
> [no, Wormtongue killed Saruman]

   Yes, and then it was Wormtongue who was shot.

> agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well
> taken...  evidently a Maia is quite mortal.

   Er, a *fallen* Maia is quite mortal.  Don't forget that Saruman
had been cast out (and apparently had his power broken by) by
Gandalf.  Also remember Gandalf's comment when Legolas, Gimli, and
Aragorn meet him (after he's come back from his fight with the
Balrog): "Get up, my good Gimli!  No blame to you, and no harm done
to me.  Indeed, my friends, none of you have any weapon that could
hurt me."

der Mouse
USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
     philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
        mcvax!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
ARPAnet: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 19:54:16 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
> While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to
> some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other
> semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan
> Forest and perhaps Pukel-men.  Do any of the more erudite have
> explanations?

The Druadan are a people of around four feet who inhabited the same
area in Beleriand as the People of Haleth in the First Age.  Their
origins are discussed in the section on The Druedain in Unfinished
Tales.

As far as The Hobbit, LOTR, The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales
go, there is no explanation of how hobbits originated.  All we know
is that they sort of "popped up" in Eriador about TA 1000.  Their
origins are probably one of the hidden things of Iluvatar which were
not revealed in the Music of the Ainur (and for good reason,
considering the part the hobbits played in the War of the Ring, had
Sauron had information on them earlier his fortunes might have been
much better).

> Also, why are the Eagles not reckoned as one of the significant
> races in Middle Earth when they are able to speak and were major
> forces in both the Battle of Five Armies and the battle before the
> gates of Mordor?

Eagles are the eyes of Manwe.  Their work is primarily in his
service.  There doesn't seem to be a need for a detailed history of
their deeds.

> Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings?

Another mystery.  The Beornings, the Rohirrim and men of Dale are
all supposed to have as ancestors the Edain who did not heed the
call to come to Numenor.  They may be traced to a man (Amlach son of
Imlach?  I don't have the books with me) and his people who left
Beleriand after having a dispute over whether or not he was reported
to have said something.  Amlach thought it might be Sauron who
masqueraded as him.  Anyway, he left with some of his people, and
the non-Dunedain who lived on the upper Anduin are supposed to have
come from him.  The puzzling thing is Beorn and his people's ability
to change shape, which might just be Bilbo's imagination, but if it
isn't, then the Beornings may have some of the elder races in them.

gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 20:22:08 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian)
Subject: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR

Orcs are suspected to be a mutation of Elves brought about by
Morgoth (not Sauron) in the early First Age shortly after the Elves
awoke.  There is a passage somewhere in the Silmarillion which says
that after his rebellion, Morgoth no longer possessed the power to
create life (as opposed to Aule who created the Dwarves).

Orcs were not dominated by Morgoth or Sauron in the same way that
Sauron ordered the Nazgul.  Remember that the wills of the Nazgul
were drawn to Sauron because of the Ring.  Neither Morgoth nor
Sauron held anything which would control the Orcs in the same way.
Morgoth and Sauron controlled the Orcs largely by fear.  The Orcs
are seen to have the ability to choose, for example the conversation
Frodo and Sam overheard in Cirith Ungol where two Orcs were
considering whether or not to flee the tower.  Unfortunately, the
Orcs, because of their mutation, hated the Elves from the beginning,
and probably learned to hate Men as well.  No matter how they felt
about Sauron, that would not have stopped them from killing Men or
Elves.  Because of the trouble Orcs caused Men and Elves, it is not
likely that either would have put down their arms to let an Orc
surrender -- it was more of a "shoot first, don't even ask
questions" situation with them.

gregbo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 86 2100-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #194
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:

             Books - Busby (2 msgs) & Kenneally & Lem &
                     Myers (2 msgs) & Schmidt & 
                     Book Release Query &
                     Release Answer & A Correction,
             Films - Books into Films & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs),
             Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - T-Shirt Update & 
                     SF Writers Group (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 86 18:28:57 GMT
From: polaris!herbie@caip.rutgers.edu (Herb Chong)
Subject: Re: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen

KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU writes:
>  It is partly the same material, from a different viewpoint.  It
>is different material up to the time when Bran meets Rissa.  If you
>liked the original books, you will like these too.

Rebel Seed isn't too bad.  I just read it last night.  If you liked
his previous Rissa books, you'll like this one.

Herb Chong, IBM Research...
VNET,BITNET,NETNORTH,EARN: HERBIE AT YKTVMH
UUCP:  {allegra|cbosgd|cmcl2|decvax|ihnp4|seismo}
       !philabs!polaris!herbie
CSNET: herbie%ibm.com@csnet-relay
ARPA:  herbie@ibm.com, herbie%yktvmh.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 86 14:45:54 EDT
From: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Subject: Busby (Rissa Kerguelen)

The books in the series are:

"Rissa Kerguelan" (contains "Young Rissa", "Rissa and Tregare" and
   "The Long View")
"The Alien Debt"
"Rebel's Seed" (brand new)
"Star Rebel"
"Rebel's Quest"
"Zelde M'Tana"

"Rissa Kerguelan" is the central story of the series. "Star Rebel",
"Rebel's Quest" and "Zelde M'Tana" take place before or overlapping
"Rissa". "The Alien Debt" and "Rebel's Seed" take place after
"Rissa" and involve Rissa's daughter Lisele in a major way.

It has always been my impression that Busby creates very strong and
believable female characters. They have minds of their own, desires,
dislikes, phobias, motivations, long range plans, aggression and are
emotionally complex. In short they are whole people in their own
right. This is something that I think is missing from a lot of
authors' treatment of female characters. Before I knew that "F.M."
stands for a male name, I thought that Busby had to be female to
write such characters so well. This is an impression that was shared
by my sister, who is no slouch herself in the mental department. If
you like to read stories that present women in a positive light,
read Busby's work and especially the "Rissa" stories.

Michael Johnson

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 22:44:23 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan)
Subject: New author?

    Excuse any mistakes herein, as this is my first venture into the
net.

    I was wondering if any of the experts out there have ever heard
of Patricia Kennealy.  I just started to read a new book by her
called The Copper Crown, first novel of The Keltiad.

    Does anyone have any information on Kenneally or any other
novels?

Bryan McDonald
UCDavis

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 17:33:37 GMT
From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: I remember Solaris!  * Minor Spoiler *

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
> It plays from time to time at 'art' theatres around the country.
> It's VERY long, but has some deeply affecting scenes that aren't
> in the

I liked the movie as well. One thing you should be prepared for is
that the pace is very slow. If you are expecting Star Wars or even
2001, you may get bored and leave. If you can adjust, the movie has
a wonderful dreamlike quality that stayed with me for most of the
rest of the evening.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 23:11:46 GMT
From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough)
Subject: Re: Silverlock (was Rings)

vis@trillian.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes:
>I know this is going to be heretical to some, but my favorite work
>by Tolkien is his translation of Gawain and the Green Knight. I
>found it extremely readable, particularly aloud, and it brought new
>life to the old story.
>
>I'm probably a touched biased, since I had recently read John Myers
>Myers' "Silverlock", with its wonderful recasting of the story from
>Bertilac's point of view.

`wonderful' is too shabby a word to describe _Silverlock_, but I
would have to drink from the spring myself to adequately describe
this book. (That's a reference, read the book) How many others out
there haven't yet read this Masterpiece?  (Run, don't walk, to your
nearest bookstore and correct this oversight!)  I could fill all the
disks in Net.land with reams of praise for this book, but if you've
already read Silverlock, you already know, and if you haven't, I
don't want to detain you any longer.  Go get it!!!

Geoffrey Kimbrough
INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. Santa Monica, California
ihnp4!ima!geoff
sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff
ucla-cs!ism780!geoff

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 15:17:23 GMT
From: apollo!nazgul@caip.rutgers.edu (Kee Hinckley)
Subject: Unfinished drinking song in "Silverlock"

There is a reference in Larry Niven's forward to "Silverlock" (John
Myers Myers) that states that Friar John's drinking song has been
finished.  Can someone post the completed version?  For those who
haven't seen it, here's the uncompleted song; put your mythological
skullcap on.

   [Silverlock, John Myers Myers, C1949, 1982 Ace Books, pp225-6]

   Old man Zeus he         kept a heifer in his yard;
   Hera smelled a          rat and took the matter hard.
   She swore she would     watch the varmint anyhow,
   Damned if she'd play    second fiddle to a cow!
      Here's to Zeus and his hot pants!  He learned to pay his debts.
      The more he started to explain,
      The more she jawed him with disdain.
      She wouldn't hear; it was in vain
      He vowed he just liked pets.

   Young Adonis            was a handsome lad, I hear,
   But some parts were     missing from him, as I fear;
   Aphrodite               swung her hips and rolled her eyes.
   But for once she        couldn't even get a rise.
      Here's to young Adonis, who is dead and ought to be!
      He chased a pig, he shot and missed,
      So he got killed instead of kissed.
      I wish that what slipped through his fist
      Had only come to me!

   Once a centaur          loved a Lapithaean dame,
   So he thought           he'd work to try to snatch the same;
   But that cutie          didn't thank him for his pass,
   For she said she        knew he was a horse's--

kee
{yale,uw-beaver,decvax!wanginst}!apollo!nazgul
Apollo Computer, Chelmsford MA.  (617) 256-6600 x7587

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 14 Jul 1986 05:26:13-PDT
From: devi%lookup.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Dennis Schmidt

I just finished reading two works by Dennis Schmidt, "Wayfarer" and
"Kensho".  I thought they were excellent.  Does anyone out there
know anything about the author?  Having studied martial arts and
eastern philosophies, I found his presentation of the two to be
unique.  I would like to know what Mr.  Schmidt's training has been.

Thanks in advance.

Gita Devi

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 86 05:40:40 GMT
From: mcb@lll-crg.ARpA (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: When will these books come out?

Has anyone heard anything about any of these, which many of us are
anxiously awaiting?

Stephen King's IT and THE TOMMYKNOCKERS (why no King summer novel
this year, anyway? He has been busy with "Maximum Overdrive", but
that shouldn't affect the publication process).

Samuel R. Delany's THE MISERY AND SPLENDOR OF BODIES, OF CITIES,
which finishes the story begun in STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF
SAND.

The next book in the series Joe Haldeman began with WORLDS and
WORLDS APART.

Any info appreciated.

Michael C. Berch
mcb@lll-crg.arpa
lll-crg!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 01:18:53 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: When will these books come out?

mcb@lll-crg.ARpA (Michael C. Berch) writes:
> Has anyone heard anything about any of these, which many of us are
> anxiously awaiting?
>
> Stephen King's IT

Michael (and others)

   A signed, limited edition of IT, in German no less, has been
published and was available from Underwood-Miller. I use the past
tense because it was sold out before publication in this country,
and my little order was returned.  The mass-market edition of IT is
scheduled for later this summer, but very probably will be published
a little earlier-- as with SKELETON CREW and THE TALISMAN, named
publishing dates mean little.
    Hope this helps.

Richard Bleiler

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 17:48:30 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Book query: _Green Eyes_ (?)

>>There was a Berkely Fiction book that had, as a premise, the
>>resurection people.  The live dead had glowin green eyes, which is
>>why I thought that that was the title; but I could be wrong.
>
> It was, indeed, called "Green Eyes;" the author is Lucius Shepard.

Except it was Ace Books (the new line of Terry Carr "Ace Specials").

Evelyn C. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 86  08:20 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

rael@ihlpa.UUCP writes:
>What flicks would you like to see made from your favorite SF books?
>(this could be interesting!)

I always thought Asimov's "The Caves of Steel" would make a great
movie.  In fact, I recall a rumor I once heard that it was indeed
being made into a film, and never heard another thing about it after
that. Anyone know about this?

Other excellent possibilities, film-wise:
   Poul Andersons "Three Hearts and Three Lions"
   Niven & Pournelles "Lucifers Hammer"
   Steven Kings "The Stand"
   Clarke's "Rendevous with Rama"
   Clarke's "Childhoods End"
   Zelazny's "Nine Princes in Amber"

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1986 1529-EDT (Tuesday)
From: jrodrig@EDN-VAX.ARPA (Jose Rodriguez)
Subject: Yoyodyne Corp, "The Crying of Lot 49" and "Buckaroo Banzai"

Hi,
   I hope you don't mind a non-member asking a question but I was
wondering a few weeks ago about the origin of the Yoyodyne Corp.  I
was reading this book from the 60's by Pinchon, "The Crying of Lot
49" where this corporation appears. Is this just coincidence or
could there be some truth to the rumor that Pinchon wrote the script
for "Buckroo Banzai"?

Sorry to bother, but thanks, oh, again, replies to me , I am not on
the list,

Jose
jrodrig@edn-vax

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 01:29:27 GMT
From: utastro!mccarthy@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Elizabeth Hill)
Subject: Re: Yoyodyne Corp, "The Crying of Lot 49" and "Buckaroo
Subject: Banzai"

   According to all sources, Earl Mac Rauch wrote the screenplay for
"The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension," and
there has never been even so much as a rumor that the reclusive and
erudite Thomas Pynchon was involved.

   What probably happened was that Rauch read THE CRYING OF LOT
49--it is short, witty, amusing, with a delightful pastiche of a
Jacobean revenge tragedy em- bedded ("The Courtier's Tragedy" by
Richard Wharfinger--how's that for a play on names?!)--and liked the
concept of Yoyodyne, which may or may not own the world, be involved
in mysterious W.A.S.T.E. schemes, etc., etc.  Another possiblity is
that Rauch hasn't read Pynchon and heard the name from somebody who
had read Pynchon.  But it is highly unlikely that Pynchon had any
hand in the movie at all . . .

Richard Bleiler

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 12:48:03 GMT
From: infinet!pz@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Czarnecki)
Subject: The Prisoner

I know that the prisoner drove a Lotus Super Seven.
I know that his plate read KAR-120C.

What I need to know is the color.  (or should I say colour?)
I hope it is Silver on Black or Black on Yellow.

Anybody with a VCR out there?  Thanks in advance.

pZ
decvax!encore!munsell!pac
decvax!wanginst!infinet!pz

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 21:15:24 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

   The Prisoner's Lotus was Black with a Yellow snout.  I've seen a
Super 7 recently.  They're still beautiful looking beasts.

Cheers!
James Omura, Barrister & Solicitor, Toronto
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura
Byte Information eXchange: jimomura
(416) 652-3880

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 11 Jul 1986 19:15-EDT
From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Subject: T-shirt update

Thomas the Unclad trooped through the dense underbrush, desperately
seeking that which would forever remove his bane...an SF-LOVERS
T-shirt.  Suddenly, a vision appeared to him, that of a glowing
figure sitting in front of a kyeboard...

``Thomas,'' the mystic image said, ``your search is almost at an
end. The shirt artwork and order went to the printer around the 20th
of June...''

``Verily, good sir, but when might we expect to to see this
legendary item?''

``These things are not clear to mortal men, but the shirts
themselves are due back around the third week of July. It then
becomes a question of how fast one man can sort and mail over 140
T-shirts...''

``And what of my companions who sent their money too late?''

``All orders received before the shirt count was sent to the printer
will be honored. The checks received after that date were destroyed.
There will be a limited number of shirts available at Worldcon on a
first-come, first- served basis.''

``And the design itself?''

``We had to lose the attacking spaceship for reasons of layout. It
now is a question of how well the fine detail in the screen display
will come out...only time will tell. The art itself looks great.''

As the vision faded, Thomas smiled quietly. His quest was nearly
over.

James Turner
ARPA  ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
UUCP  {decvax|sri-unix|ima|linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn
MAIL  329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 17:23:05 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF writers on the net.

Some professional Canadian SF writers are on the net, too.  Phyllis
Gotlieb reads this newsgroup (she's the author of several novels
from Ace, including O Master Caliban!) and yours truly, Robert J.
Sawyer (my latest sale was to *Amazing* -- watch for "Uphill Climb"
in an upcoming issue).  We're both active members of the Science
Fiction Writers of America.  Donald Kingsbury, author of the
Timescape novel *Courtship Rite* teaches at Montreal's McGill
University.  He could certainly access the net if he wanted to (and
maybe already does -- are you out there, Don?

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 22:46:55 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: SF Writers' Group

   My idea is to create a mailing list of interested authors.  Then,
when one of the authors has a story that he or she would like
critiqued, he or she would mail it to all of the authors on the
list.  The other authors would then read the story and mail their
comments back.  In this way, the overhead required to maintain the
group is minimal.  I would be willing to take care of the
maintenance and distribution of the mailing list.

   After receiveing the responses, the original author would then be
free to do whatever he or she wants with the story.  The author
could change it (or not), remail the new version to the others in
the group, submit it to a print magazine, fanzine, or electronic
magazine, etc.

   I have already heard from a few people who said that they would
be interested.  Send me mail if you would like your name to be added
to the list.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 86 2126-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #195
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 195

Today's Topics:

            Books - Barnes & Busby & Farmer & Harrison &
                    Heinlein (4 msgs) & Myers & Piper &
                    Feghoot,
            Films - Books into Movies (2 msgs),
            Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) & Star Trek,
            Miscellaneous - Battle Language

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 10:16 PDT
From: fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Steven Barnes' books

   He also collaborated with Niven on "DESCENT OF ANANSI".  Anansi
is a spider in African folktales.
    I have STREETLETHAL and THE KUNDALINI EQUATIONS. TKE was really
depressing in spots, but it was well written. I know he has written
several short stories. I generally snatch up anything with his name
on it.
   He is also an awfully good punster and dancer.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 16:07:40 GMT
From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill)
Subject: Re: F.M. Busby and Rissa Kergeulen

Another book in this series, _Rebel's_Seed_, I think, is just out.
It's a direct sequel to _The_Alien_Debt_, staring Rissa and Bran's
kid.  You can tell Busby's running out of steam in this one (the
villians are retreads from the first books) and in the note on the
author at the back, Busby says its the last he'll write in this
universe.  It's still well worth reading if you liked the other
books, but probably not a good place to start.

mark purtill            (201) 829-5127
Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com    435 south st 2H-307
Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill  morristown nj 07960

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 14:47:58 GMT
From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon)
Subject: when will the riverworld series end?

Does anybody have any idea when the Riverworld Series (used to be
trilogy...)  by Farmer will end. I've been reading it for such a
long time and would like an ending :-(

Simon Kenyon
The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND
+353-1-716255
...!mcvax!ukc!einode!simon

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1986 12:36:05-EDT
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: West of Eden

I just finished Harry Harrison's _West_of_Eden_.  I highly recommend
it.  The premise is intriguing and hinges on the following idea:

(*** extremely mild spoiler -- almost a non-spoiler ***)

Suppose millions of years ago, the dinosaurs did not die out:
Instead, they evolved, and a small race of intelligent reptiles
developed.  Concurrently, mammalian evolution produced humans.  What
happens when the two races meet?

(*** end spoiler ***)

By the way, the jacket blurb for the hardback version contains a
semi-spoiler of its own.  I wish I hadn't read it before I read the
book.  Try to avoid

The novel was well-researched and quite credible.  The point of view
occasionally switches between the human race and the reptile race.
Harrison does a fine job of portraying the culture of each race from
that race's point of view, allowing the reader to be a sympathetic
observer.  I was occasionally amused at some of inventions the
reptiles used; they sort of reminded me of old Flintstones cartoons.
These occasional impressions didn't affect the story's credibility,
however.  Harrison also laces the story with enough action to keep
things moving at a fairly brisk pace.  This book "feels" so
different from the Stainless Steel Rat series that it's the Rat
stories; I enjoyed them as well.)

The back of the book contains some "historical" and biographical
information for both races.  I wish I'd stopped a third of the way
through the book to read these appendices before continuing.  At
that point, they would have provided some useful background
information without giving away information or confusing the issue.
Still, I didn't really lose much by reading them last.

Finally, the illustrations which appear at the beginning of each
chapter are both delightful and accurate, even if the artist's
conception of the various characters didn't always match mine.

The book club accidentally sent me two copies of _West_of_Eden_.
I'm giving second one away as a gift.

Brian Clapper
clapper@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 06:59:09 GMT
From: palmer@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

dbb@rayssdb.UUCP (David B. Bennett) writes:
>Several years ago (6-10?) after having worked my way through
>_Time_Enough_ _For_Love_ a friend of mine (a Heinlein fanatic) told
>me that Lazarus Long appeared in a cameo position in every short
>story in the book _The_Past_Through_Tomorrow:_"Future_History"_
>Stories_ in much the same way as Alfred Hitchcock appeared in the
>movies he directed: a cameo position, unobtrusive, and largely
>hidden - one had to look to see him.

   LL did mention (in Methuselah's (sp) Children) that he had been
to see Dr. Pinero (of one of Heinlein's earliest stories,
"Lifeline").  Dr. Pinero, took a reading on when he would die, then
returned his fee without saying anything.  I don't remember such an
event occuring in Lifeline though.

David Palmer
palmer@cit-vax.edu
...seismo!cit-vax!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 12:57:21 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: heinlein

In reply to Joe Yao,

>wherein aliens take over one's nervous system...

The name of the book you are looking for is The Puppet Masters, and
the way they told the controlled from the uncontrolled was the those
under alien influence had no reaction to sexual stimuli, sort of
reminds you of the one scene from History Of the World Part One
where the Romans are trying to flush Greggory Hines from the line of
unics...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 09:40 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Heinlein Timelines

The Heinlein novel about the aleins that take over the nervous
system with the agents is The Puppet Masters.  I don't specifically
remember "Kettle-Belly" in it but its been 10-12 years since I read
it.

The other book that the poster was requesting that specifically
refers to by Friday is Gulf.  This is a novellette (novella?)  that
I have collected in a New English Library book called Assignment in
Eternity.  The other story in this book is one of my favorites -
Elsewhen.

Gulf involves a couple of agents of "Kettle-Belly"s that save the
world.  They are the folks that Baldwin explains to Friday are her
genetic parents.  (A big light went off when I read that passage,
because I had not connected the stories before that.)

Elsewhen is about a college professor who discovers a way through
auto-hypnosis and relaxation techniques to jump into allternate
dimensions.  He shows his psychology class.  Fun story.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 22:42:31 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Timelines
To: "CHAPMAN@PAVEPAWS.BERKELEY.EDU"%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU

From: chapman@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman)
>The first Dr. Baldwin story is called, I believe "Assignment in
>Eternity".  If that's not the title of the story, that's the
>collection it is in, along with "Gulf".

  No, the first Baldwin story is _Gulf_ itself.  Baldwin isn't in
_Assignment_in_Eternity_.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 19:26:02 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Silverlock

>I'm probably a touched biased, since I had recently read John Myers
>Myers' "Silverlock", with its wonderful recasting of the story from
>Bertilac's point of view.

Actually I thought 'Silverlock' was just a good book (I've already
given it away). Unless it was intended to be tongue in cheek, which
I didn't think it was, there were just too many other
legends/stories/etc pulled in for my taste, from Ulysses (Circe &
her pigs) to Dante's inferno to Beowulf. And I'm sure there were a
lot I missed.  I could never identify with the hero, either. The
book is good, but by no means great: 2 stars out of 4.

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 86 20:59:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

  In the early 1950's a two part serial "Null A-B-C" by Piper and
McGuire appeared in "Astounding Science Fiction".  I think that it
later appeared in book form but cannot be sure.  I don't recall
seeing it reprinted of late.
  Also, recent reprints of "A Planet For Texans"/"Lone Star Planet"
have dropped all mention of McGuire.  Does anybody on the net know
the story of the Piper-McGuire collaborations.  If the current
edition of LSP still has some of McGuire's words in it, why no
credit?  If McGuire's part could be so easily excised, what function
did he ever serve?

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 86 10:07:23 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com>
Subject: Feghoot
To: PSST001%DTUZDV1.Bitnet@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

"Through Time and Space with Ferdinand Feghoot" does not identify a
single work, but rather a long-running series which appeared in F&SF
for some years and was then revived briefly in the short-lived
revival of "Venture" magazine in the late 1960s or early '70s.  The
series, written by Grendel Briarton ( a pseudonym [and anagram] of
Reginald Bretnor), consisted of short-short stories whose sole
purpose was to set up the last line, a pun on a well-known saying.
This type of story is often known generically in fannish circles as
a "feghoot", and in other circles as "Father Goose" stories, or
incorrectly as "shaggy dog" stories.  The idea of translating one of
these into German boggles the mind.  There is a book containing the
complete set of Feghoot stories, published by one of the fannish
publishers, I believe, with illustrations by Tim Kirk.
    Given the above, you can see that you haven't provided enough
information for anyone to help you out with the ending.  However, if
you'd like to send me a synopsis of the story, with your best
re-translation into English of the last line, I can probably tell
you what the original was.

Morris

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Jul 1986 05:28:23-PDT
From: vesper%3d.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Andy V  DTN 296-5745 )
Subject: SF Movies

For a movie for the young (and the young at heart), how about Tom
Swift Jr.?

The opening credits could have Tom and his friends driving along a
highway, coming to a traffic jam.  Tom pushes a button and the car
rises in the air and starts flying over all the stopped cars.

(Obviously I thought of this while driving to work this morning.)

Andy V

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 86 16:00:39 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: books -> movies

   Not necessarily my first choice, but arguably the best choice wrt
capturing the nature of the book on-screen: WAY STATION, by Simak.
Some interesting effects, lots of pages of scenery that could be
condensed enough that the book wouldn't have to be cut significantly
(which it shouldn't be---everything in it is integral to the story.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a belief that pastorals and SF
movies don't mix (or at least that SF must have lots of action....)
   And I'm surprised that vis@trillian hasn't mentioned THE BIG
TIME, by Fritz Leiber. It was written by a former actor, from an
acting family, in the form of a play, and is one hell of a drama;
many of the inner explanations can be expounded as indoctrination of
the "new girl". The nihilism might be less than appetizing to a film
public that seems to expect either heroes (however reluctant) or
clowns (however unappetizing).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 15:00:49 GMT
From: druky!sch@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Higgins)
Subject: Max Headroom origin (?)

   As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing this Max
Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts" with a more specific
subject of subliminal advertising.  I don't recall it being one hour
long but I specifically remember the box & Max Headroom.  It seemed
everyone was trying to get this box because of some great feeling or
fantasic technology.  The setting I remember is the future and the
city was run down and trashed.  Kind of had a "Mad Max" or "Escape
From New York" tone to it (the setting).
   But the real reason for this posting is that it was mentioned
that this was first aired on channel 4 18 months ago.  I remember
seeing this movie here in the states around THREE years ago on pay
television.

   By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with the
title of this movie.  I would appreciate it.

G'Day,
Steve
AT&T Information Systems
11900 North Pecos Street
Denver, Colorado 80234  (303) 538-4779
S. C. Higgins Room 30e78
e-mail  ...ihnp4!druky!sch

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 17:41:46 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?)

If you did then that's pretty damn clever of you 'cos I KNOW it was
made for English television (channel 4 to be precise) no more than 2
years ago.  The original pilot really was an hour long, and, truth
be told, the actual (electronic) character of Max Headroom was a
rather irrelevant part of the whole story, though it was the tale of
his creation. It sounds like you've got the atmosphere of the thing
right, though I've never seen Escape from NY (and have no real
desire to judging by its reputation), and I would prefer to compare
it to the classic Blade Runner. Incidentally, the ONLY thing that it
has in common with Mad Max is part of its title, I mean, come on,
you may as well compare 2001 with Star Wars, just because they've
both got spaceships.

As to its latest airing: Cinemax, July 3rd.

> By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with the
> title of this movie.  I would appreciate it.

The title, surprise, surprise, is MAX HEADROOM. Ta, Daa.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 17 Jul 86 13:10:55-PDT
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@su-sierra.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek new TV series

20th Century Fox is trying to start a fourth nationwide TV network.
(So is Turner, but that is another story).

The rumor is that 20th Century Fox has (about to) contract with
Paramount for a new Star Trek TV series.  It would be guaranteed 16
episodes (rather than normal TV 6 episodes) and no pilot program.

There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major
characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters
doing entire shows as guests.

(Now if they could just get some real science fiction writers to do
some good scripts :-)

Randy   neff@sierra.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 17:41:28 GMT
From: ihwpt!knudsen@caip.rutgers.edu (mike knudsen)
Subject: Battle Language -- DUNE invention?

> One topic which has been explored by a number of authors is the
> idea of the Klingons having a Battle Language which is used during
> combat.  It is a crude one at best, being used to issue orders and
> speed the actions of combat.

Interesting -- the novel (and recent movie) "Dune" by Frank Herbert
also had the various "tribes" using Battle Language (same name) with
the same nature and purpose as described above.  Since _Dune_ came
out about 1966, same year as ST went on the air, it's hard to accuse
anybody of ripping off the other.  On the other hand, since BL seems
not to have made it into the ST universe until some rather recent
novels (not the TV show or even the movies), it looks like the ST
novelists got the idea from Herbert.

I won't say they "stole" it.  Let's just say that Battle Language is
yet another concept that has become part of the SF vocabulary, like
time travel, faster-than-lite, ray guns, and transporters.  But
Frank Herbert gets the credit for inventing it, unless someone comes
up with an earlier author.

Mike J Knudsen
...ihnp4!ihwpt!knudsen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 86 2146-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #196
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 19 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 196

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jul 86  17:27:15 EDT
From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Peter E. Lee)
Subject: A theory on Tom Bombadil

   Having just re-read LOTR (preceded by "The Silmarillion" and "The
Hobbit"), I have another theory as to the identity of Tom Bombadil.
Rather than being one of the Maiar, as some people have theorised,
or one of the children of Illuvatar my guess is that he is merely
(?) an aspect of the song of the Ainur incarnate.  He, like the
trees and grass and animals seems to be an integral part of middle
earth.

   This theory, to me at least, explains his reverance for and
communion with all of nature, and the inability of the ring to have
power over him - it was created to dominate the children of
Illuvatar, and he is not one.  It also explains his presence at the
waking of the elves - he was there when the song was first given
substance. Of course if Tolkien ever directly stated the origin of
Bombadil, then my reading is obviously wrong, but I don't seem to
have heard a concrete explanation of who/what he was yet in this
discussion, and this explanation makes a good deal of sense to me...

   Regaurding the ability of the Orcs to choose goodness over evil
(I must appologize to the originator of the query for not
remembering their name), given Tolkien's clear statement in the
forward to LOTR that he 'courteously dislikes' allegory and hidden
meanings in fiction, and that there are none intentionally placed in
his books.  Why should we assume, therefore, that all creatures in
middle earth MUST be given a choice of paths?  If the author is not
trying to make such statements, then I see no reason to assume that
we can or should make such generalizations about his works.

   Finally, I have really enjoyed the current discussion of the
series - it was in part responsible for my latest return to middle
earth, and it has added something to the experience to see so many
other people's interpretations of the series.

Peter E. Lee
Fuligin%Umass.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 14:29:31 GMT
From: sunybcs!lazarus@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel G. Winkowski)
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

>> Saruman was also a Maia, and he died of a couple of hobbits'
>arrows, I beg your pardon. didn't Wormtongue finally crack under
>Saruman's abuse and slit the wizard's throat when they were leaving
>the Shire?
>
>agreed, a trivial correction at best... your point is well taken...
>evidently a Maia is quite mortal.

Saruman as a Maia? I thought he was numbered among the Istar;
longlived but mortal!

What was the origin of the Istar anyhow?

Dan Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2193)
UUCP:   ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus
CSNET:  lazarus@Buffalo.CSNET
ARPA:   lazarus%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 02:03:54 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian)
Subject: Evil in Tolkien not understanding good

MRC@PANDA writes:
>      Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it quite clear that part of the
> nature of evil is that it cannot understand good, which was one of
> the main weapons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. had against Sauron.
> They all knew what Sauron was up to but Sauron had no way of
> understanding their plans.

I believe Tolkien said that evil, Morgoth specifically, cannot
understand mercy.  Morgoth did not expect the Valar to return to
Middle-Earth to do battle with him and his armies because he did not
believe that the Valar cared any more about the exiles.  Morgoth did
in fact understand much of what was going on in Middle-Earth -- he
was able to manipulate quite a few individuals (the best example
being the family of Hurin).  He just did not think the Valar would
forgive the Elves, so he did not pay much attention to the small
outpost of Elves at Sirion's mouth, nor did he pay much attention to
the comings and goings of Earendil, and had already deemed that the
Silmaril he lost would pay for the end of the Elves in Middle-Earth.
Even if he paid attention to the fact that Earendil and Elwing found
the secret way back to Valinor, he did not believe the Valar would
pardon Elves and Men.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 19:45:58 GMT
From: harry@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Harry I. Rubin)
Subject: Re: And again, rings

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>Sauron didn't gain dominion over the last remaining Balrog becasue
>they were essentially *equal*, both being Maiar.

Friesen seems to be claiming that Sauron and the Balrog of Moria
were equal in power, due to their origins.  But Gandalf nearly faced
down the Balrog, and did defeat it in combat (admittedly at great
cost to himself).  If Sauron and the Balrog were equal in power, why
wouldn't Gandalf just cruise into Mordor and have a showdown with
Sauron?  I am sure that Gandalf would gladly have given his life to
defeat Sauron.  Yet Gandalf never even contemplates such an action,
and from his words and acts it is clear that he considers Sauron to
be extremely powerful, far more than he himself is.  So Sauron is
far more powerful than Gandalf, and Gandalf is slightly more
powerful than the Balrog.  So clearly Sauron is far more powerful
than the Balrog.  This leads to two questions: given the same
origins why is one far more powerful, and why has Sauron not
dominated or enslaved the Balrog?

With regard to the first, Sauron has purposefully gone out and
accumulated power.  This has been his occupation for Ages.  This is
what he does and he's good at it.  The Balrog has spent a lot of
time dormant.  Even aside from that, I get the feeling that the
Balrog is a "bully" who likes to dominate and push people around
because it's big and strong, whereas Sauron is a a "mastermind" or
"plotter" type.  Naturally Sauron would acquire power whereas the
bully Balrog would simply remain physically strong.

Why hasn't Sauron enslaved the Balrog?  There are many possible
reasons, probably the real reason is some combination of these.
Sauron may not have been aware of the Balrog; after all it was
underground, not doing a lot.  Or the Balrog may have been doing
pretty much what Sauron would have wanted it to do, so why should he
waste time and effort on it.  Or it could be that the Balrog, while
less powerful than Sauron, was powerful enough that it would have
required a major effort for Sauron to dominate it, an effort he
could not afford at the time.

Comments?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 86 16:00:16 GMT
From: fisher!larsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Larsen)
Subject: Re: Was Westernesse "Atlantis"?

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>(I am not saying that the identity was not there -- I don't know
>either

There is at least circumstantial evidence for the identification.
In _That_ _Hideous_Strength_, C.S. Lewis alludes to "the Atlantean
circle" and "Numinor," apparently as synonyms.  Lewis also says
somewhere that his "Numinor" is based on work which Tolkien read
aloud at meetings of the Inklings.  (This may explain the odd
spelling.)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 02:37:19 GMT
From: uvm-gen!king@caip.rutgers.edu (John King)
Subject: Re: Re: Moral Choice in LOTR

pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes:
>It always struck me as a flaw in the book that all the characters
>or groups except one get the opportunity to make the choice
>between Good and Evil.
>
>The missing group is the Orcs.
>
>Is this because they were Sauron's creation and hence wholly evil?
>It still seems wrong, though, that they are given no chance to
>repent, or even to choose.

The orcs were not Sauron's creation.  They were created by Melkor
(Morgoth).

Actually, if you want to get technical about things, Orcs were first
created by Iluvatar, he who created all things (The Silmarillion).
Orcs first came to Middle Earth as Elves, but they were corrupted
into their present form by Melkor.

No, I guess they didn't have a lot of say in the matter...

John King
...!decvax!dartvax!uvm-gen!king
The University of Vermont

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 EDT
From: <mende@aim.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Yes Nick,  There is a Tolkien Society

   The Tolkien Society in the United States is the Mythopeic
Society.  It's devoted to the study of JRR Tolkein, CS Lewis, and
Charles Williams.  Subscriptions to ytheir jorunal, _Mythlore_ makes
you a member. They may be obtained by writing to:

   Mr Lee Speth
   Orders Dept.
   1008 N. Montery St.
   Alhamnbra, CA 91801

   There is also a Tolkien Society in England, and again,
Subscription to their journal, _Mallora_, Constitutes membership.
You can obtain information by writing to:

   Mr. Chris Oakey
   Membership Secretary,
     The Tolkien Society
   Flat 5
   357 High St.
   Chetlenham
   Glos, GL50 3HT
   England.

   BTW, The annual conference of the Mythopoeic Society, MYTHCON
XVII, is Aug. 8-11 at Calf. State Univ at Long Beach.  This year's
topic: The Figure of beatrice (Women in Fantasy) and the Charles
Williams Centennial.  Also papers & discussions groups on JRRT, CSL,
and a Masquerade banquet.

  Info by contacting:

   17th Annual Mythopoic Conference
   c/o Prof. Peter Lowentrout
   McIntosh Humanities Bldg.
   Room 619
   California State Univ.
   Long Beach, CA 90840

  I believe registration begins @ 3:00 on 8/8.

Lisa Ann Mende
ARPA:   MENDE@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU
UUCP:   {anywhere}!caip!aim!mende

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 17:59:56 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Accuracy re Saruman's death

Sorry, blew it again.  Saruman was indeed killed by Wormtongue:
having mocked him, betrayed him, and kicked him in the face, Saruman
then turned his back on him to leave Bag End (either supremely
confident, or amazingly stupid), and that did it.

Scratch one Maia, in a most undignified fashion.

It was in fact Wormtongue who was killed by the arrows immediately
afterward.

Alastair Milne

PS.  I've heard it suggested that Saruman's "spirit", or whatever it
was that rose above his corpse, was begging forgiveness of Elbereth
(or the Valar in general) in the West, and being denied, was blown
away and ended at last.  I know of no evidence beyond the appearance
of what the hobbits saw, which must have been brief and hard to
follow; but it does sound conceivable at least.  Would anybody care
to comment?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 18:19:12 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Classifying as Vala or Maia

>   It doesn't in do so *explicitely*, but it is made clear
>indirectly. First, when she is introduced in the Silmarillion it is
>stated that she was "a spirit of evil that came from Outside".
>Second, all spirits from Outside(i.e. beyond Ea) were either Maiar
>or Valr, and she most clearly was *not* a Vala. QED, she was a
>Maia.

Please be more cautious in stating what was and wasn't.  The
Silmarillion says that certain Ainur entered Ea, who were then known
as the Valar; others also entered, who were called Maiar.  However,
it does not say that these were all, that there were no others.
Even the Maiar are first mentioned only comparatively late: somebody
reading only the first part of the Music of the Ainulindale (sp?)
might believe that the Valar alone were Ainur from Outside.  What
others may simply not have been mentioned?

There is also Jeff Dalton's excellent point that this far back in
time, we have nothing but legend to go by.  By the Third Age, I
doubt if even the oldest Elves (Cirdan, for instance, who was among
the Elves who answered the invitation of the Valar) could say with
certainty what parts of the creation legends were fact, and what
parts myth.

I am not denying that Ungoliant may have been a Maia; but I
certainly am denying that we have adequate reliable information to
make a definite classification.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 86 19:07:49 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Who was Tom Bombadil?



franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Personally, I am inclined to believe that Bombadil was Iluvatar,
>at least in some sense.  The quote above is explained very easily:
>the speaker does not know who Bombadil is (this is admitted), and
>so underestimates his power.

Sarima responds:
>   I sincerely doubt it, there are other passages that indicate
>that Bombadil is a limited, not an infinite being. Like when the
>Hobbits ask if the land belongs to him, and are told that nobody
>owns the land. I rather think that he is a Maia in his *original*
>state, not "humanized" like Gandalf and the wizards.

Goldberry (and who might she be, hmmmm?) tells Frodo that for Tom to
master all his land "would indeed be a burden".  If he were
Iluvatar, he would not only be the land's master, but its creator,
and mastery of it could scarcely be a burden.

>He seems to date back to the time when the Valar and Maiar dwelt in
>Middle Earth, before they moved to Aman. I believe that he simply
>decided he didn't want to leave, and continued to wander around
>Middle Earth on his own.

I have difficulties with this.  Firstly, though the Silmarillion
indicates that Valinor itself was not built for some time, I don't
recall the Valar or the Maiar actually living in Middle Earth
(excluding a couple of Valar who were virtually part of Middle
Earth).  Secondly, though certain Maiar certainly liked to wander in
it, living there would have been difficult with the continual havoc
that Melkor wrought, trying to undo everything the other Valar did.

However, if you want to consider that he settled rather later in the
place where the Old Forest would later stand isolated, I think
there's time available there: wasn't the Maia Orome fond of hunting
trips in Middle Earth for quite a considerable time before he
discovered that the Elves had awoken?  Even if this is mostly just
legend, it seems safe to assume that there was a long period of
relative calm in Middle Earth before the Elves awoke, and Bombadil
(whether Maia or not) could have settled down then.

>This would indeed make him Eldest, since he *was* there before any
>of the Children of Illuvatar, and he had no father, having come
>from Outside.

It would indeed.  Though to be evenhanded, one should also consider
that "Fatherless" was actually part of the Elves' name for him, and
may or may not have been accurate.

In fact, given the broad variety of Maiar in whose existence we can
have confidence, the hypothesis that Bombadil was one seems
perfectly reasonable to me.  I might even hazard a guess that
Goldberry was also a Maia, originally serving the water Valar (whose
name escapes me just now).

For myself, though, I prefer to have Bombadil unclassified (my
preference, as opposed to what I only find reasonable).  I find that
tidying unexplained matters into conveniently available categories
tends to deprive them of some of their richness.  Personally, I'd
sooner have Bombadil marvellous and unexplained than "yet another
Maia; we already know about those".  And (in a different way,
obviously) I think the same could be said of Shelob.

Alastair Milne
PS.  Given the liklihood of finding any further indication either
way, I think neither viewpoint is in danger of running up against
contrary evidence.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 21:11:09 GMT
From: wdl1!jrb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

The Istari were Maiar who had taken on forms of flesh (which could
be killed) and were sent into Middle-Earth to aid in the fight
against Sauron.  They were more limited in power because of the
fleshly forms.  After Gandalf's death (of the body he was in) he
returns with enhanced powers and a new body.  It is likely that in
his form as Gandalf the White he could have easily defeated the
Balrog.

John R Blaker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 86 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #197
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 197

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bova & Farmer & Harrison &
                         Heinlein (4 msgs) & May & 
                         Piper & The Eye of Argon & 
                         Has it Been Done?,
                 Television - The Prisoner & 
                         Max Headroom (3 msgs) &
                         Star Trek,
                 Miscellaneous - WorldCon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 86 08:59:39 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: ihnp4!arcom!mkaplan@SUN.COM
Subject: Shrugging off Bova...

>by Ben Bova. (Whenever I say his name to friends, I only get a
>shrug -- is it me or them??????).

It's them.  Ben Bova is a good journeyman writer that seems to be
overshadowed by that fact that he was also a good journeyman editor.
His latest work, _Voyagers II: The Alien Within_ (Tor Books,
hardback) is pretty good. I've also recently re-read _The Dueling
Machine_, which I think is his classic work.

Bova has, by the way, gotten back into editing.  He's doing a line
of books for Tor called _Ben Bova's Discoveries_ that will be a
series of lesser known or newer authors.  Primarily for the first
novel of people publishing short works or early novels of people
published and ignored by other houses.  The first books should be
out in about a year -- it definitely looks promising.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 12:09:42 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: when will the riverworld series end?

simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) writes:
>does anybody have any idea when the riverworld series (used to be
>trilogy...)  by Farmer will end. i've been reading it for such a
>long time and would like an ending :-(

   I thought the series ended with "Gods of Riverworld". Am I wrong?
If I am, can somebody tell me what books I've missed?

Thanks in advance,
Jim Gavin.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 14:19:56 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: West of Eden (also RAH)

> I just finished Harry Harrison's _West_of_Eden_.  I highly
> recommend it.
>
> The novel was well-researched and quite credible.  The point of
> view occasionally switches between the human race and the reptile
> race.  Harrison does a fine job of portraying the culture of each
> race from that race's point of view, allowing the reader to be a
> sympathetic observer.  I was occasionally amused at some of
> inventions the reptiles used; Brian Clapper

I thought it was pretty good too, if for no other reason than the
portrayal of stone-to-bronze age man.  As for the reptiles and their
inventions: if anybody out there has read both _West of Eden_ and
Robert A. Heinlein's _Space Cadet_, I'd like to hear your views on
several unlikely parallels between the amphibious Venerians of the
latter and the intelligent earth-reptiles of the former.  (E.g.
without spoiling this for someone who's read neither, the method of
doing technological things and the division of labor by sex.)

Luke Jones

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 19:15:27 GMT
From: sas!jcz@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Zeigler)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

In Robert Heinlein's book The Past Through Tomorrow, there is one
story about a fellow who invents this machine that can tell when you
will die.

You stick your head in it and out pops the answer.

He sets up a storefront establishment and charges people a fee.

One day this jaunty red haired type walks in and puts his money down
and sticks his head in the machine.  The machine burps, humms, dials
whizzzz, bells bing.  The inventor takes the answer, looks at it,
returns the redhead's money and says ( with an odd expression ),
"here, take your manoey, the machine must be broken."

The story then goes on with the main plot and etc.

Of course, this customer is none other than Lazarus Long.

In Time Enough For Love, LL tells one of his daughters/clones how he
once went to this fortune teller who could say when you would die,
but the guy wouldn't tell him for some reason.

John Carl Zeigler
SAS Institute Inc.
Cary, NC  27511
(919) 467-8000
...!mcnc!rti-sel!sas!jcz

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 14:25:06 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

Nice story.  Too bad it's not in the book.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 20:11:00 GMT
From: inmet!brianu@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

> I seem to recall that LL mentions he once had his "Lifeline" read
> and that the researcher (I forget his name) refused to tell LL
> what his life expectancy was.  I don't recall where I read this,
> does anyone know if/where this appears?

I don't remember for sure, but I think this is related in TEFL. The
researcher was named Pinero (I think) and appears in a story from
The Past through Tomorrow. It may even have been called "Lifeline".

Brian Utterback     Intermetrics Inc.
733 Concord Ave. Cambridge MA. 02138. (617) 661-1840
UUCP: {cca!ima,ihnp4}!inmet!brianu
Life: UCLA!PCS!Telos!Cray!I**2

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 17:17:18 GMT
From: ihlpl!chrise@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Edmonds)
Subject: The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls (One opinion)

I don't normally write reviews...and the content of this posting
isn't really intended to be one...but it might be construed as such.
This is in specific response to someone who posted a request a
couple of weeks ago for advice appropriate for making a decision as
to whether to buy TCWWTW in hardcover.  Dissenting opinions are
welcome.  So if you don't want to read this brief "gripe" (not a
spoiler), now is the time to get out.....

                  The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

I love Heinlien.  I think he is my favorite SF author.  I don't buy
books in hardcover so my wife knows that when gift time comes around
she is always safe buying the latest HRH book if it isn't available
in softcover yet.  I also like cats (we have three) so I sat down
and polished off TCWWTW immediately.  I was very disappointed.  It
doesn't meet the promise of the title until very late in the book.
The premise is very weak.  The plot line is a rehash of "lets bounce
around the Universes a little more" that we have seen so often in
other LL genera books.  It was short and I found it only moderately
entertaining.  In my view it was a formula book written to make a
buck with no redeeming SciFi (sic) value.  Don't get me wrong, it
wasn't a bad book, but I would never use it as a model for HRH's
style and talents.  I have since reread the book thinking it was my
state of mind at the time which colored my opinions.  It wasn't. I
still didn't find it to be the all engrossing, mentally stimulating
work that other HRH work has been.

Chris Edmonds
AT&T Something-or-Other, Naperville, IL
...!ihnp4!ihlpl!chrise

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 05:03:00 GMT
From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Silverlock (was Rings)

If you thought *Silverlock* dragged in too many myths/legends, by
all means avoid Julian May's Pleistocene series. I barely made it
through the first book alive. Aiken Drum, fercryinoutloud!

Wombat

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 18 Jul 1986 10:11:08-PDT
From: vesper%3d.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Andy V  DTN 296-5745 )
Subject: Lesser known works by Piper

From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
> Crisis in 2140  [1957]
> Murder in the Gunroom [1953]

I thought I had all of Piper's works, but these two were new to me.
I found a reference to "Murder" in the introduction to "The Worlds
of H. Beam Piper".  It was described as his only detective story,
and therefore I will not expend much energy to find it.

I found a mention of "Crisis in 2140" on the "other books by Piper
published by Ace" page of my copy of "Little Fuzzy", but of course
there was no description.  What is the story about?  Is it SF or
something different? (I assume SF from the title.)

Thanks, Andy V

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 86 08:51:53 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: amd!sco!ericg@SUN.COM
Subject: Eye of Argon

Eye of Argon is available on the BBS SCI-FIDO (415) 655-0667, a
Science Fiction oriented BBS.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 16:36:39 GMT
From: derek@rsch.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Has this been done?

I have been trying to fit together a bunch of ideas for a novel, and
I am wondering if the following (or something similar) has already
been done:

Each chapter of the novel is titled and represented by one of the
Tarot trumps, and the major themes of that chapter have to do with
the meaning of the card. It will focus on an interpretation of the
Trump sequence as stages of existence in a path to "enlightenment"
but will also use some of the more common interpretations of the
cards.

Any information would be most welcome, as I would hate to get to the
point where plot, characters, etc, all seemed to be working together
well only to have the underlying structure removed because it's been
done.

Thanks in advance.

Derek Zahn @ wisconsin
{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek
derek@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 22:50:08 GMT
From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>     The Prisoner's Lotus was Black with a Yellow snout.  I've seen
>a Super 7 recently.  They're still beautiful looking beasts.

Uh oh, time to adjust the TV.  The Prisoner is shown on Maryland
Public TV Sundays at 11 pm, and it looks to me that his car is dark
green with a yellow snout.  Odd, the car driven by the gent in the
top hat looks perfectly ordinarily black to me, so I have no idea
how it could be black.

Does anybody remember the engine block serial number quoted in the
episode "Many Happy Returns"?

David Hsu  (301) 454-1433 || -8798
Communication & Signal Processing Lab
Engineering Computer Facility
The University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
ARPA:hsu@eneevax.umd.edu
UUCP:[seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 10:59:31 GMT
From: woolstar@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (John D Woolverton)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom on David Letterman

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>I heard Max Headroom will appear on Late Night with David Letterman
>soon.  (In fact, I think it's tonight)

Live and in the phospher (with slight technical dificulties) Max
made a great appearance, including jokes, a plug for his show, and a
song.

J Woolverton (woolstar@csvax.caltech.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 22:56:46 GMT
From: bambi!steve@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Miller)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

>>      As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing
>> this Max Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts"...
> ...the actual (electronic) character of Max Headroom...

There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the
only performer.  The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many
claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made.  I've been a
computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a computer
graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV).  The
technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in the
tape I saw.  Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!) ?

Steve ihnp4!bellcore!bambi!steve

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 15:29:16 GMT
From: druky!sch@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Higgins)
Subject: Re: Re: Max Headroom origin (?)

tmca@utastro.UUCP writes:
> If you did then that's pretty damn clever of you 'cos I KNOW it
> was made for English television (channel 4 to be precise) no more
> than 2 years ago.

   Slow down, eh!  I had no idea someone would be SO offended by
such an innocent request.
   Maybe three years was an exaggeration (a gross one according to
you!).  That point in time (2 to 3 years ago) is pretty much lost to
me so I don't recall anything too accurately.  It is quite possible
that it was the summer of '84.  You are right.

> got the atmosphere of the thing right, though I've never seen
> Escape from NY (and have no real desire to judging by its
> reputation)....

   Sounds like your source of information on the quality of movies
is quite lacking (no offense, you have a right to an opinion no
matter how fair your derivation was).

> .....and I would prefer to compare it to the classic Blade
> Runner....

   I completely agree!  The setting in "Blade Runner" reminds me
exactly of the show that I saw (the main reason I posted to the net
instead of responding by mail).  I also agree that "Blade Runner"
was classic.  Maybe you should see "Escape From New York" and make
your own judgement.

> the ONLY thing that it has in common with Mad Max is part of its
> title, I mean, come on, you may as well compare 2001 with Star
> Wars, just because they've both got spaceships.

   The reason for this comparison was to describe a SETTING.  "Mad
Max" was in the future (??!?!?) and had a feeling of desolation and
waste, this is what I had recalled from "Max Headroom."

   I agree that it was a poor comparison and should be withdrawn.
"Blade Runner" makes my point exactly.  Maybe I should have referred
to ALL of the Mad Max movies.

> The title, surprise, surprise, is MAX HEADROOM. Ta, Daa.

   Surprise?  As you mentioned, Max Headroom seemed to play an
insignificant part in the show.  So it wasn't obvious.  Especially
since I recall so little (the setting & Max) from the show.

   I could have understood the rudeness if this was common
knowledge.  BUT since yours is the only reply, I couldn't regard it
as common knowledge and couldn't understand your tone.  If it is
common knowledge I would have to assume that the lack of response
was due to the lack of importance.  If that is the case, I still
can't understand being rude.

G'Day,
Steve
AT&T Information Systems
11900 North Pecos Street
Denver, Colorado 80234  (303) 538-4779
S. C. Higgins Room 30e78
...ihnp4!druky!sch

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 17:16:40 GMT
From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

NEFF@su-sierra.arpa writes:
>The rumor is that 20th Century Fox has (about to) contract with
>Paramount for a new Star Trek TV series.  It would be guaranteed 16
>episodes (rather than normal TV 6 episodes) and no pilot program.
>
>There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major
>characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters
>doing entire shows as guests.

Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?!  The idea of recasting the crew
came up for ST I (The Motion Sickness).  The fannish outrage caused
them to reconsider.  This was what got us Decker, etc. as they tried
to phase in a replacement crew.  We all know how far THAT got.  A
good portion of Trek's continuing popularity is the identification
with the crew members.  Expect this one to sink fast.

For those interested in expressing their distaste through
correspondence: 20th Century Fox Publicity, P O Box 900, Beverly
Hills CA 90213 (from trying to encourage the Buckaroo Banzai
sequel).

Bob Halloran, Consultant
UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857
DDD: (201)251-7514
ATTmail: RHALLORAN

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 86 21:13:27 GMT
From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop)
Subject: Re: WORLDCON

  Could someone please post the relevant info [exact date & place,
address] for Worldcon? (yes, as a matter of fact I HAVE been living
in a cave for the past year and a half - what's it to you?)

  Thanks.....

Brian Bishop
Bishop@Usc-Ecl
Bishop@Usc-Oberon
{uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol}!oberon!bishop

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 86 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 198

Today's Topics:

                    Books - King,
                    Films - Back to the Future &
                            Aliens (5 msgs),
                    Miscellaneous - SF Writers &
                            Battle Language (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 05:52:16 GMT
From: mcb@lll-crg.ARpA (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: When will these books come out?

mccarthy@utastro.UUCP (Richard Bleiler) writes:
>    A signed, limited edition of IT, in German no less, has been
> published and was available from Underwood-Miller for something
> like $120.00, maybe less.  I use the past tense because it was
> sold out before publication in this country, and my little order
> was returned.  The mass-market edition of IT is scheduled for
> later this summer, but very probably will be published a little
> earlier-- as with SKELETON CREW and THE TALISMAN, named publishing
> dates mean little.

Thanks. Stephen King was on a radio program in San Francisco last
week plugging "Maximum Overdrive". He said that IT would be "out in
September", presumably meaning the US trade edition.

Michael C. Berch
mcb@lll-crg.arpa
lll-crg!mcb

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 86 14:26:04 -0200
From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Back to the Future

Well, I DID see "to be continued" at the end of the theater showing.
I saw the version exported to Israel (and *groan* about 6 months
later than you guys), so maybe it was just cut out, for some
mysterious reason, from the version played inside the U.S.A. Anyway,
I think the ending obviously calls for a sequel.

About two months ago, an Israeli magazine ran a feature article on
Spielberg. They specifically mentioned that he's planning to produce
"Back to the Future II"; but they gave no details.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:          eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:  eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:            ..!ucbvax!eyal%wisdom.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 10:45:05 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Bughunt!

Bottom line (actually, top line, I guess): Definitely worth seeing.

Abbreviated review: Despite the script being basicly a carbon-copy
of its predecessor's, ALIENS succeeds in its thrills and chills.
It's well acted, written, directed, and photographed. A very worthy
follow-up to Ridley Scott's ALIEN.

Plot Summary: Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) and Jones, still in cold
sleep, are finally picked up and brought back to Earth --- 57 years
later. "The Company" plays at not knowing about the Alien and
accuses her of willfully destroying the NOSTROMO and its crew,
though obviously they don't have any evidence to formally charge
her. In the meantime, a colony has been set up by the Company
ostensibly to terraform the world where the Alien was found.
Sometime after Ripley's return, all communication with that colony
was lost, and the Company persuades Ripley to accompany, as a
consultant, a small military force to the planet to find out what
happened. Of course, what they find there is a whole nest of Aliens.
The rest of the film is taken up by the small war between the
Colonial Marines and the Aliens.

Detailed review:        ***** Here There Be Spoilers *****

The usual problem with most sequels is that they more often than not
are little more than derivative, pale imitations of the originals.
The bad news is, as I mentioned above, that ALIENS is very much the
same in many plot details as ALIEN. The good news, though, is that
while it may be derivative, it's certainly not pale. There are many
parallels from the first film to the second, and this often gets in
the way of the story. you know just what's going to happen at many
points in the film, because you've seen it before. And yet, ALIENS
director James (THE TERMINATOR) Cameron manages to keep the suspense
going.

Other than this parallelism, I see two major problems with the film.
The first is that they is no sense of futurity in the characters.
They are all basicly 20th-Century types transplanted into the
future.  The second major problem is a lack of time sense. One can
infer that Ripley's debriefing provided information for the Company
to send the colonists out looking for the alien derelict, which
ended up as the obvious downfall of the colony, and thus, that it
was months after Ripley's return that the colony goes south.
However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if there is
a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been on the
planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control problem just
as Ripley reaches Earth.

I also had some problems at the beginning with the characters of the
Marines, but this went away as the movie progressed and the people
grew as characters. And that's one of the film's strengths. Few of
the "grunts" are faceless Alien-food; most are very distinct
individuals that you begin to admire, even while they aren't
particularly nice people. Paul Reiser plays the token sleezebag
Company-man, and plays him well. Michael (THE TERMINATOR) Biehn does
a marvelous job as a Marine corporal who finds himself in charge of
the squad. He doesn't play Hicks as a Rambo-type hero, but as a
competent but very soft-spoken man. And Sigourney Weaver does as
good a job here as she did in ALIEN. Ripley is a very strong,
capable, decisive, and, above all, heroic character.

The special effects are wonderful. As in ALIEN, they are pretty much
kept in the background rather than paraded out one after the other.
There are some rear-projection shots that are almost unnoticible,
model movements that are very smooth and realistic. The pride and
joy is the exo-skeleton, about which I shall say no more. There are
some problems with the movement of the Aliens as they scamper
around, but the close-up shots are as good as in the first film,
though Cameron wisely uses quick cuts and murky lighting to keep the
menacing appearance of the Aliens from diminishing by over-exposure.

Few sequels really measure up to their predecessors. The Mad Max
films did, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK did, and ALIENS does.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 09:41:35 GMT
From: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Hamachi)
Subject: Alien(s), the Sequel

Aliens (the sequel), starring Sigourney Weaver, directed by James
Cameron.  Story by James Cameron et. al.  Screenplay by James
Cameron.

Pico review: 3 out of 4 stars.

Nano review: Rambo meets The Creature.  At least they're not
shooting-up Asians this time.  In fact, one guy shoots himself up.

Did anyone see the Statue of Liberty ceremonies, with the 200 Elvis
Presley impersonators live on stage?  Imagine!  Can't get an
original, classy act?  No problem, just replicate the same old thing
over and over.

Well, now they've really gone and done it!  Sigourney (Alien) Weaver
reappears as (believe it or not) Ripley, sole survivor of Alien (the
original).  James (the Terminator) Cameron directs yet another
classy action shoot-em-up.  Michael (the Terminator) Biehn seems
stuck in a rut as the soldier of the future who is cool and capable,
who but ultimately gets dragged around by tougher and more capable
women.  Space marines do the cyborg shuffle, mechanically scanning
the scenery and bursting into rapid fire action, to the point where
you'd think they were Arnold ("Give me your clothes")
Schwartzenegger impersonators.  Ripley strips down to her underwear.

What's new in this movie, compared to the original?  Well, just look
at how original the new title is!  Deja vu!  No, I take that back.
No burning TV sets.  No dogs sniffing soldiers' hands.

Undoubtedly, if you liked Alien, and if you liked The Terminator,
you'll find much to admire in Aliens.  The audience was unusually
vocal, cheering wildly as alien guts and gore gushed grandly across
the screen.  If sheer pacing and intensity were all that counted,
James Cameron would be THE director.

Okay, so he twisted my guts too, and everyone seemed real excited
walking out of the theater.  But after you think about it, you'll
see that this is just more of the same stuff.  Sure, it will clean
up at the box office.  Yes, it is a horror.  But since I'm not
planning on seeing it again, I just want someone who IS planning to
see it to note whether those aliens had lamb-chop sideburns, surf
boards, or white, sequined suits to go along with their gyrating
pelvises.

Gordon Hamachi

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 86 16:35 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Aliens review

Well, chalk another one up for Ripley.  Not only did she kill the
first Alien, she spewed a great deal of Alien blood in her sequel,
Aliens.

Nutshell Review:

Where the original Alien was a sheer horror story, Aliens is an
adventure film, and a great one at that.  There are no slow building
scare sequences, instead we are running from hordes of creatures.
This is pure excitement!

The premise (spoilers follow, but nothing substantial):

Ripley is picked up by deep space salvage.  She sailed clean through
the populated sphere and spent 50 years asleep.  She is accused of
blowing up her ship pointlessly.  There is no evidence of an Alien.

In the meantime, a colony, complete with teraforming equipment, has
landed and lost communication with Earth.  The Marines are sent in
with Ripley as an advisor.  They bring along a company man, who is
exactly what you would expect and another android, in addition to a
contingency of coed marines.  The marines are just what you would
expect of traditional marines.  They are just as unprepared for the
Aliens as you would expect when push comes to shove.

All in all, the movie was very consistent and logical.  There were
no bouts of complete stupidity.  No gaping logical holes (that I
saw) although there did seem to be a bit too much gravity on the
ship, but they never pretended to be in free fall.  I also thought
the traditional open-the-airlock bit was stretching it a bit, but
within limits.  You decide for yourself.

Most of the actors I did not recognize, although I thought they did
a marvelous job.  The only one I recognized was Chip from Weird
Science.  My commendations go to the point-lady, Hernandez (or
however they spelled it).  She was tough.  "Hey, Hernandez, you ever
been mistaken for a man?"  "No, have you?"  The flick was full of
lines like that.  Truly a fun and exciting movie.  A sequel worth
seeing.  Four stars.  Check it out in 70mm Dolby stereo!

Jon

is the reference to a "bug hunt" straight from Starship Troopers or
what?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 16:50:14 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>Other than this parallelism, I see two major problems with the
>film.  The first is that they is no sense of futurity in the
>characters.  They are all basicly 20th-Century types transplanted
>into the future.  The second major problem is a lack of time sense.
>One can infer that Ripley's debriefing provided information for the
>Company to send the colonists out looking for the alien derelict,
>which ended up as the obvious downfall of the colony, and thus,
>that it was months after Ripley's return that the colony goes
>south. However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if
>there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been
>on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control
>problem just as Ripley reaches Earth.

It was mentioned in the film, when Riply talked in private to Burke.
In the book it was very clear.  Burke heard Ripley's description on
the Narcissus's (the escape shuttle) tape, giving full details and
co-ordinates of the alien spaceship.  He erased part of the tape,
hence screwing Ripley's chances of redemption with the company, and
sent a letter to the planet ordering someone to investigate the
given coordinates, from whence came the alien infection.

The one thing I had a problem with was the fact that the Company
undertook a 20+ year project without a full survey of the planet.
Surely even a half-hearted survey would reveal the alien spaceship?

There is another thing I have a gripe with.  It was actually filmed,
and later cut, that Ripley found Burke coccooned when she went
looking for the kid.  Ripley gave Burke a grenade so he could kill
himself, rather than dying of chestbursting.  What pisses me off
is that the exact same scene was removed from the original alien.
Captain Dallas was found alive, but infected with one or more alien
spawn, Ripley (or whoever found him) torched him out of compassion.
Would have been a great scene, but they cut it out.

Robert Allen,
robert@sri-spam.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 16:22:12 GMT
From: tekgen!brucec@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Cheney)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.

1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must
have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and
crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means
it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there,
some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the
"gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of
days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this
tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me
they were "saving" these folks for YEARS.

2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything about
creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples
in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS,
see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT
TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ??
C'mon....

3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship for
a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ? Making
replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of a
one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them, they
exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer of
intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

There are others, but these seem the biggest to me. But don't get me
wrong, it's a great movie.

tekgen!brucec

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 08:09:38 GMT
From: ihlpg!durney@caip.rutgers.edu (Durney)
Subject: SF Writers on the net

I am an amateur (so far) SF writer and would like to cast another
vote for an SF writers' group or mailing list.  I am a member of the
Fantasy & Science Fiction Workshop and would like to know if there
are any other members who are on the net.  Anyone out there?

Brian Durney
ihnp4!ihlpg!durney

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1986  12:25 EDT (Sat)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: ihwpt!knudsen@caip.rutgers.edu (mike knudsen)
Subject: Battle Language -- DUNE invention?

   Actually, there's a sort of Battle Language used by the Osnomians
in "Doc" Smith's "Skylark" series, although it was more sign
language than verbal as I recall.
   There are indications that the Berserkers used some sort of
Battle Language in their wars against humanity, but then again, what
else would a killer machine use?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 14:46:09 GMT
From: tekcrl!patc@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Caudill)
Subject: Re: Battle Language -- DUNE invention?

   If you look in the book BABEL-17 by S. R. Delaney you will find
the whole story revolves around the S-Worfs hypothesis and what
would a person be like who only knew battle language. I dont know
which book has the earlier copyright date though.

Pat Caudill
Tektronix!tekcrl!patc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 86 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 199

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 13:30:08 GMT
From: hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu (Ron Hitchens, Sun Wiz)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

> There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the
> only performer.  The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many
> claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made.  I've been
> a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a
> computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV).
> The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in
> the tape I saw.  Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)?

  Max Headroom obviously isn't "computer generated" in the sense you
mean.  But I suppose you could call him "computer processed", though
"video processed" would probably be more accurate.  Max is an actor
(the same one from the movie, can't recall his name) wearing a
plastic suit and makeup specifically designed to look flat and
"computerish".  The video signal is then processed in various ways
to make his movements look unnatural.  It's very simple to do by
duplicating and skipping frames.  They put a simple
computer-generated line pattern behind him, probably via a
chroma-key technique.  And they fiddle the audio to complete the
effect.

  I saw him on Letterman on Thursday, at one point the audio cut out
and for a few seconds you could hear the guy talking backstage.  The
Max effect wasn't quite as good in real time.  In the movie and the
other various things he's been used for (the video show on Cinemax,
commercials) they've done some post-processing also, for things like
the "scratched record effect" and such.

  Now, in the movie, character-wise, Max was computer generated.  He
was created from a brain scan of a real person.  The evil (and
wimpy) computer wiz wanted to replace the tv reporter (who was
getting too close to the truth) with a computer version.  But the
computer model had some glitches because the reporter had been
captured after crashing into a crossbar in a parking garage (max
headroom 6') trying to get away from the goons chasing him.  So he
had a concussion at the time of data aquisition and there were a few
CRC errors, hence the explanation for Max's quirky behaviour.  The
movie was actually quite good, set in a (very dirty) future
dominated by television networks and inhabited by various punk
slimoids.  BTW, the reporter didn't die in the movie.

  The producers of Max Headroom were very clever in creating Max.
They obviously understood the technology (it was made and set in
England) and purposely made the glitches part of Max's character.
The movie had lots of very good and (more importantly) plausible
computer graphics and video effects.  They've done a pretty good job
of capitalizing on him.  The movie left the impression of being the
first of a series, I'm surprised they haven't done more by now.

  Back to the original point.  The majority of the public doesn't
know the difference between "computer generated" and "video
processed".  Max has the computer "look" on purpose, and I'm sure
the producers are perfectly happy to let them be mistaken (and
amazed at what computers can do nowadays).  And with all the
sophisticated video technology in use today, mostly computer
controlled, it's not that much of a stretch anymore.  For many
people "hi-tech" == "computer", and if it has blinking lights or
velcro on it, it's hi-tech.

Ron Hitchens
hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu
...!seismo!ut-sally!hitchens

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 17:21:21 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

In case you missed it, Max was on Late Night with David Letterman
this last Thursday, and it was obvious that Max was back stage
somewhere while Dave talked to a TV at his desk.  At one point the
sound from backstage went out and Max could be slightly heard in the
background.  Over all though, he was a big hit.

Bryan
UCDavis

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 01:14:34 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes:
> There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the
> only performer.  The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many
> claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made.  I've been
> a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a
> computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV).
> The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in
> the tape I saw.  Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)?

Sorry, can't actually CITE anything, I was in England when Max first
came out and there was quite a lot of fuss over this question
amongst my friends, and I seem to remember one of them coming up
with some info saying that he was a human actor whose performances
were computer processed to make him look like a graphic.

("I got a letter the other day
  FR FR FRom a fan -
 He said the only funny lines on my show
 Are those behind me.......
 Hmmmm
 (Max turns and looks)
 I don't get it")

Besides, if Max isn't a computer, then what does that make the other
MTV VJs?

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 19:49:10 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

> There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the
> only performer.

The video is by the band that loves repetitious editing, otherwise
known as Art of Noise, and the song is "Paranoimia" (or some such
spelling).  He fits right in with their style of video.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 16:09:31 GMT
From: jennings@onion.cs.reading.AC.UK (Richard Jennings)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?)

sch@druky.UUCP writes:
>As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing this Max
>Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts" with a more
>specific subject of subliminal advertising.  I don't recall it
>being one hour long but I specifically remember the box & Max
>Headroom.  It seemed everyone was trying to get this box because of
>some great feeling or fantasic technology.  The setting I remember
>is the future and the city was run down and trashed.  Kind of had a
>"Mad Max" or "Escape From New York" tone to it (the setting).

The ``film'' was the intoductory pilot for the original UK Max
series shown on Channel 4: It was set ``20 minutes into the future''
in a (mid-atlantic) society where TV (and the ratings of the many
hundred broadcasters) is of the utmost importance.  The most
successful company (only just) was ``network 23'' who employed a
young spotty hacker (P. Brice) to develop tech-isms for them,
including the blipvert which had the side-effect of making lazy
people who sat in front of the telly all day (ie. most of the
populus) explode.

Network 23 had a highly successful programme called
_The_What_I_Want_To_Know_ Show_, hosted by one Edison Carter.  In
making one of the programmes, he got ``too damn close to the truth''
and Brice decided (without authority) to terminate Carter.  The
network chief was none too pleased about this, so Brice tried to
appease him by making a computer model of Carter - this is Max
Headroom; the name comes from the sign which was the last thing
Carter saw before he hit his head on it, ``Max. Headroom: 2.3m'.

To cut a long story short(ish), a small-time TV station (known as
_Big_Time_ TV_) who just played old promos got hold of the Max box
and started to use it to do their links - hence the show.

>But the real reason for this posting is that it was mentioned that
>this was first aired on channel 4 18 months ago.  I remember seeing
>this movie here in the states around THREE years ago on pay
>television.

Not so.  The Pilot show was (c) 1985 by Chysalis Video Programming.
It is thought here that you may possibly be confusing it with
_Videodrome_ (myself I'm not so sure).  It is also thought that this
is just another example of Americans assuming that all TV is US TV -
cf. the astonishment on t'other side of the water not so long back
when it was explained to them that, in fact, _Dr._Who_ was entirely
made by the British Broardcasting Corporation, actually.

>By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with the title
>of this movie.  I would appreciate it.

Believe it or not: ``Max Headroom''.

Incidentally, as I write, _Paranoimia_ by Art of Noise & Max is
playing on the radio...

Richard Jennings
jennings@sage.cs.reading.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 JUL 86 08:59-EST
From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re: The M-M-M-Max Headroom Story

Brian Bishop (Bishop at Usc-Oberon) writes:
>  Apparently he was a reporter originally (and went by a different
>name) when he broke the story on *blipverts*, thirty-second ads
>squeezed into three seconds, real-time.  Unfortunately he was
>killed for this, smashing into a sign that read "Max. Headroom 6
>M." He was resurrected with the new name....Max Headroom. The rest
>is history.  Note: this info is second-hand, as I haven't been able
>to get a videotape of Max, as I can't get Cinemax, (hint hint....I
>have several "Prisoner" episodes...)

   Actually he did not _Die_ when his motorcycle crashed in to the
"Max. Headroom 6 M." sign. He was hurt, but later recovered. In the
meanwhile a crazed scientist has already scanned his brain and has
the pattern in his computer.

Steve Higgins writes:

>   As I have heard mentioned earlier, I too remember seeing this
>Max Headroom character in a movie about "blipverts" with a more
>specific subject of subliminal advertising.  I don't recall it
>being one hour long but I specifically remember the box & Max
>Headroom.  It seemed everyone was trying to get this box because of
>some great feeling or fantasic technology.  The setting I remember
>is the future and the city was run down and trashed.  Kind of had a
>"Mad Max" or "Escape From New York" tone to it (the setting).

Correct on the tone of the setting (if that's the proper
terminology), but everyone was after the box (there was a more
scientific sounding name but I've forgotten it already) because Max
Headroom had information that could destroy the largest T.V.
network around.

Jason
BITNET,VNET,EARN,NETNORTH: JJL8733@RITVAXC
ARPA: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@.WISCVM.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21-JUL-1986 09:56 EDT
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTVAX5.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Max Headroom

Max Headroom (also known as The Max Headroom Story, but I think the
former is the actual title) first appeared in the U.S. early last
year on Cinemax.  This year all of a sudden he started popping up
everywhere.  Cinemax also did some episodes of the Max Headroom Show
for a while.  Max Headroom is running again now on Cinemax, in fact
I saw it last night I think.  The city isn't really bombed out, it's
only set "20 minutes into the future".  It's just that some areas of
the city (which is presumable london) are very slummed-out.

The movie is really about a reporter, Edison Carter, that does a
live news show "on the road" with a portable camera.  He (and other
reporters like him) stay in contact at all times with their
"controllers", the people back in the news room with the huge
computer consoles that can apparently tie into any computer known to
mankind.  They can at the very least link up to sattelites to get
directions, and seem to have databases with the floorplans of every
building in london.  The network (network 23) uses "compressed"
advertising called blip-verts, that shows a 30 second commercial in
3 seconds, preventing channel switching.  But there seems to be a
problem no one wants to talk about.  During the course of the movie
we find out how Max is created.

BTW, Max is currently that star of a new video.  I only caught part
of it, so I don't know the song/group, but at a guess I think it's
either Quiet Riot, or Art of Noise.. (4am is a bad time to try to
figure those things out.)

Ron

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 04:16:13 GMT
From: proper!carl@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes:
>There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the
>only performer.  The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many
>claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made.  I've been
>a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a
>computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV).
>The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in
>the tape I saw.  Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)?

Oh, I don't know...  have you ever seen Tony de Peltrie, or Andre
and Wally B.?  PIXAR (ex-Lucasfilm computer division) has come out
with some interesting stuff....  From what I've seen of Max Headroom
(2 TV commercials), he's possible for them, though the last thing I
saw that was computer-animated was clearly weird: too much chin,
looked pretty strange..  If you have the animation festival in town,
it should feature Tony de Peltrie...  the thing was at the UC
theatre in Berkeley recently....

Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 20:26:11 GMT
From: clarke@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Cam Clarke)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

This morning, Monday July 21, Good Morning America was originating
from England (I guess they are the whole week because of the royal
wedding).  They had a segment about Max Headroom, including clips of
the movie that started all this, clips from his series in England
(he interviews people like Boy George and Sting), the actor who
plays Max (I partially missed the actor's name, Matt Fruer or
something that sounds like that.  Anyway, he's American, not
British, and they had a picture of him), and an interview with Max,
much like the one David Letterman did, only shorter and without any
audio glitches.  They said the process used to create Max was a
"secret" that the interviewer had sworn not to tell.

If someone's really interested, ABC sells transcripts of GMA,
they give a P.O. Box number at the end of each show.

Cam Clarke
clarke%h-sc4@harvard.ARPA
clarke@h-sc4.HARVARD.EDU
clarke@h-sc4.UUCP
clarke@HARVUNXU.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 21 Jul 1986 08:32:23-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (MARY J. MAROTTA MRO1-2/L12
From: 467-4277)

Having just seen The Max Headroom Story -- The Beginning on Cinemax
this weekend, I want to recommend it to SF lovers and make a few
comments on earlier messages.  As Tim Abbott (rather bitingly)
points out, the computer-generated image is not a critical part of
the plot.  Actually, the story is about Edison Carter the news
reporter, and the advertising scam called "blipverts."  It's a
fascinating, hour-long episode about Edison's attempt to publicize
the dangers of blipverts and to avoid being "wasted" by the network
biggies.  I enjoyed it thoroughly.  The setting was reminiscent of
Blade Runner.  The characters, too.

Since Cinemax chose to call this "The Beginning," I have hopes that
they will show other episodes from the series.  I wonder if Max
Headroom figures in the these other episodes (after all, they named
the series "Max Headroom").  In any case, Edison Carter and his
beautiful coworker are interesting enough characters, and the
writing seems to be above the standards of most American television
(I have come to expect this of British television).

Oh, by the way, Tim, the movie "Escape from New York" is worth a
viewing, if only to see Kurt Russell live up to his acting ability.
The script is fine, and the plot has enough action to keep you there
till the end.  Best of all, though, is the setting -- New York as a
prison is not so far from our present reality!  (sorry, Apple
lovers!)

Mary

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 86 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 200

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Jul 1986 10:31:29-PDT
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: death of Saruman (SFL V11 #193)

In the cosmology of Arda, all of those beings imbued with spirits or
sould [souls] by Illuvatar (this includes Ainur, Elves, Men, and
Dwarves) never really "die" in the sense of their life force and
essence ceasing to exist.  All of these can have their physical
bodies slain or destroyed, but their spirits continue to exist.  The
spirits of Men leave Ea and return to reside with Illuvatar (this
ability to escape from the bonds of Ea and the Music of the Ainur is
called the Gift of Illuvatar to Men).  The spirits of Elves are
gathered in Mandos, and can in fact be released and restored a
corporeal form (e.g., Finrod Felagund, about whom the Silmarillion
says that after he was slain in Middle Earth he "walks with his
father Finarfin in Eldamar").  Those Ainur who clothe themselves in
physical bodies can have this form destroyed.  This happens to
Gandalf after the fight with the Balrog, to Sauron in the wreck of
Numenor, and again after Isildur cuts the Ring from his finger.  In
Gandalf's case, he returns clothed in a new body as Gandalf the
White.  In Sauron's case, the ability to resume physical form seems
to have been part of the power that he passed to the Ring.  After
Numenor's destruction, Sauron's spirit returns to Mordor, he takes
up posession of the One, and he fashions himself a new body in
fairly short order.  However, when his spirit flees after the Siege
of Barad Dur, it takes him centuries to resume corporeal form
because he no longer has the Ring.  After the Ring is destroyed, he
loses forever the power to clothe himself in a body, becoming, in
the words of Gandalf, "a malicious spirit gnawing itself in the
darkness but never able to take form or shape again."

Saruman was clothed in a human body and thus could be killed by
Wormtongue's dagger.  However, we see his spirit as it leaves his
body.  Apparently his desire to return to Valinor is spurned (by
Manwe, since it is a wind that blows it away).  It is unclear what
happens to his spirit after that.  My own guess is that his
situation parallels that of Sauron.  Alternatively, maybe he is
imprisoned in Mandos, which seems to be the general repository for
the spirits of the slain.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: Fri 18 Jul 86 01:04:30-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Tolkien & Marillion?

I've read The Hobbit & LOTR but none of the later works that go into
the detailed history and linguistics, so can any of you Tolkien
scholars tell me if the British rock band Marillion takes their name
from anything in Tolkien?  (I note the obvious similarity to
Silmarillion but have no idea if that's coincidence or not?)  (PS, I
recommend their music if you like early Genesis or King Crimson,
also Peter Gabriel sort of...)  Thanks for any info on this,

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 21:18:12 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: The LOTR vs. other sources

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>Your argument is still well taken, because memories can change, or
>survive incompletely; and the Elves were not in any case given to
>frequent discussion of them.  I believe the accounts we read now in
>Silmarillion were written by Bilbo (later by Frodo), who had
>considerable opportunity to talk with the Elves of Rivendell, at
>least a few of whom could remember Gondolin -- but we don't know
>how much he actually did, with whom he talked, and of what they
>talked.

   Actually, I believe that the bulk of the material in the
Silmarillion is based on "Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish"
which is mentioned in the appendices to LotR. The Akallabeth and the
history of the Third Age are probably derived from the additional
material added to the Red Book by the scribes of Gondor. Thus I
would hardly say that Bilbo *wrote* The Silmarillion, rather he
translated it from the original Elvish. It is probably a rather
crude and incomplete translation, but still a translation, and thus
directly based on first-hand Elvish accounts.

>I think it is important to distinguish between the hobbits'
>viewpoint that we see in LotR, and the much more Elvish viewpoint
>of the "earlier" works.  I think that of all the peoples in Middle
>Earth, it is the hobbits who are most like us, and with whom we can
>most empathise, so to a considerable degree, their feelings and
>points of view are most natural to us.  It is much harder to
>understand the points of view from which Elvish accounts are
>written.  Surely this stream of tragedies and disappointments
>cannot belong to the same gentle, smiling peoples whose beauty so
>enthralls the hobbits (and hence, us)?  So I think that the
>disappointments we may feel from Silmarillion (I certainly felt
>some) are at least partly inherent in the different point of view
>presented.

   Very astute. I have indeed found that by attempting to get
"inside" the accounts of the First Age I have been able to
understand the Elvish viewpoint much better. I can now understand
the Elvish reluctance to get involved with other races in the Third
Age, and thier fatalistic viewpoint on life.

>PS. For a bit of perspective on how much difference Elvish
>longevity might make, look at the geneology tree in Silmarillion
>that includes Elros and Elrond.  From Elrond a line goes down to
>his daughter Arwen, with an = sign indicating her marriage to
>Aragorn.  Now for Aragorn's descent: starting with Elros, Elrond's
>half-brother, crammed into the space available for them are "all
>the kings of Numenor, all the kings of Gondor, rangers of Arnor"
>(essentially), sharing the stretch of time that, on Elrond's side,
>is Arwen's alone.  Is it any wonder that the Elves view the world
>differently?

   And add to this the fact that the Kings of Numenor were a
long-lived line, you have a very long time indeed. Remember, Numenor
lasted several *thousand* years, more time than has passed since the
fall of Crete!

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 21:34:10 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Orcs

ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>Sarima writes: the orcs], like the Elves..., are reincarnated!
>Hold it, Stan...Who says Elves are reincarnated?  I haven't read
>all the Unfinished Tales, etc., but I always thought once an Elf
>died, he was stuck in the Halls of Mandos for all time.  No?

   No, they *are* reincarnated. It is even mentioned(in passing) in
The Silmarillion, I believe in the early creation accounts where the
natures of the various races are described. The basic point is this,
the Elves are tied for all time to Ea, while Men after a brief time
in the halls of Mandos pass beyond Ea into a different existence,
presumably what we call Heaven.
   In fact it is stated somewhere that the Glorfindel of LotR is the
*same* Glorfindel that was killed in the Silmarillion. This is
either in the Unfinished Tales, or in the published letters of JRR
Tolkien.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 86 21:47:47 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
>While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to
>some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other
>semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan
>Forest and perhaps Pukel-men.  Do any of the more erudite have
>explanations?

   I have always assumed that these peoples are just races of Men,
that is merely unusual tribes of Homo sapiens. The Druedain are
certainly no more unusual than modern day Pigmies. Also note the use
of the elvish word <adan> in the name, it means Man. And even the
Hobbits are said to be closer to Man than Elves and Dwarves, so I
think it is reasonable to conclude that they are derived from
ordinary human stock, probably late in the Second Age or early in
the Third.  Also, they partake of the nature of mankind, they are
mortal, and generally have the same viewpoint on life, as is shown
by how much more easily we understand them than we do Elves.

>Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings?

Another race of Men who had learned the Art of shape-changing?

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 00:20:35 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

>evidently a Maia is quite mortal.

   Depends on what you mean by "mortal". Certainly their bodies
could be "killed", but this normally had little impact on these
beings. They just retired to a quite corner and made themselves a
new body, or not as they chose. To them a body is rather like suit
of clothes to be worn, it could be taken on or off as they pleased,
and being without a body was no real handicap to them. That is
except that they could not affect physical things as easily without
one. I imagine most of the bodies made by Maiar were quite difficult
to "kill", rather like Sauron's or those of Balrogs, which required
quite a bit to kill. Sometimes the Maia(or Vala) would put so much
power into a body that he had little extra, and would have
difficulty making a new one if it were destroyed. This happened to
Sauron and Morgoth.
   The bodies taken by the Istari, however, were different. They
were less hardy, more like the bodies of Men. Also the Maiar who
accepted this post permitted much of thier memory of Aman to be
removed, and great limits were placed on thier powers. They were not
allowed to use any powers not inherent in thier bodies or derived
from Middle Earth. Thus they were much easier to kill than most
Maiar. That is except for Gandalf after his "resurrection". He told
the Fellowship that they had no weapon that could hurt him, so I
imagine he had a more typical Maiarin body at that point.


Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 00:23:12 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: How much did Sauron control?

lazarus@gort.UUCP (Daniel G. Winkowski) writes:
>Saruman as a Maia? I thought he was numbered among the Istar;
>longlived but mortal!
>
>What was the origin of the Istar anyhow?

   Yes, Saruman was one of the Istari(note the correct plural).  But
what were the Istari?? It turns out that they were all Maiar who had
voluntarily taken on the form and many of the limitations of a
mortal.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 00:28:23 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths)

rf@infopro.UUCP (Randolph Fritz) writes:
> The fall of Numenor, as told, probably owes more to a recurring
>dream Tolkien had, one of a great wave sweeping over an island.  In
>Celtic mythology, there are stories about a drowned country; in
>Welsh (a language which Tolkien knew & loved) and in Breton.  The
>Breton accounts, of a land called Ys, speak of a land which sunk so
>that only the highest towers (or was it mountains?) remain above
>water, much like Numenor.

   An interesting sidelight here. These Celtic myths may have more
truth to them than many people realize. There is some evidence that
parts of the western and southern coasts of Great Britain were
indeed inundated by the sea, and not too long before the Roman
invasion at that! A few of centuries easlier the Roman legions might
have been able to *march* into Britain.
   So it is quite possible that these myths are old remembrances of
something that really happened.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 00:31:33 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Ungoliant

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:

>Does anybody know more about the name than just that it seemed to
>be Sindarin for "spider" or "giant spider?" (As in Cirith Ungol,
>the Spider's Pass (evidently Frodo's Elvish was not quite up to
>that) )?

   There are some hints in one of the Lost Tales books that it might
mean "Web Weaver", but the descriptions of the language in those
books is not very reliable. Another possibility is "Great Spider".

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 86 00:28:23 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths)

rf@infopro.UUCP (Randolph Fritz) writes:
> The fall of Numenor, as told, probably owes more to a recurring
>dream Tolkien had, one of a great wave sweeping over an island.  In
>Celtic mythology, there are stories about a drowned country; in
>Welsh (a language which Tolkien knew & loved) and in Breton.  The
>Breton accounts, of a land called Ys, speak of a land which sunk so
>that only the highest towers (or was it mountains?) remain above
>water, much like Numenor.

   An interesting sidelight here. These Celtic myths may have more
truth to them than many people realize. There is some evidence that
parts of the western and southern coasts of Great Britain were
indeed inundated by the sea, and not too long before the Roman
invasion at that! A few of centuries easlier the Roman legions might
have been able to *march* into Britain.
   So it is quite possible that these myths are old remembrances of
something that really happened.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 86 20:16:40 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
>While the Silmarillion explains the origins of elves, men, and to
>some extent dwarves, I'm still confused about the origin of other
>semi-manlike beings such as hobbits and the inhabitants of Druadan
>Forest and perhaps Pukel-men.  Do any of the more erudite have
>explanations?

One thing that is very clear in Tolkien is that the Elves just
aren't very interested in things that aren't Elvish.  The only
reason Men are mentioned as often as they are in Elvish chronicles
is that Men played a major part in the Elvish wars against Morgoth
and Sauron.

Elvish writings on other races were always hit-or-miss.  They
remembered many old songs about the Ents, but hadn't actually
*visited* them in centuries. They virtually ignored the Eagles.
They dealt with Dwarves rarely (except for the Elves of Hollin (and
look what happened to them!:-) ), and hadn't even *noticed*
Pukel-men or hobbits.

Thus, even if the Elves once knew where all these guys came from,
the individuals with the knowledge passed over the sea, or got hit
over the head with an Orc's club, and their knowledge wasn't
preserved.  And by the Third Age, the Elves weren't traveling much
any more, so they were unlikely to re-discover anything.

Since most of the knowledge we have from Middle-Earth comes from
Elvish writings, it means we get information in proportion to how
important the *Elves* thought things were, not in proportion to our
values.

>Who and what is Beorn and the Beornings?

As far as I can tell, only the Maiar (sp?) and Valar are
shape-shifters, along with some of their descendants.  Luthien (and
later Elwing) got their shape-shifting ability through Melian.  One
would suppose, then, that Beorn is descended from a "renegade" Maia;
one who found Middle-Earth so fascinating that he forsook his duties
to live there.  Tom Bombadil is another who falls into this
category.  For that matter, so do Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of
Moria, Shelob, and Radagast the Brown.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 86 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Jul 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 201

Today's Topics:

             Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Myers & Wren &
                     Celtic Myths (3 msgs),
             Films - Books into Films,
             Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Has This Been Done? (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 14:39:19 GMT
From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman)
Subject: Re: The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls (One opinion)

  I don't think Mr. Edmonds was the only one to be disappointed.
Like many another long-time RAH reader, I've found the going
increasingly bumpy since - well, say, since *I Will Fear No Evil*
came out in 1970.  I'm not as even-tempered as Mr. Edmonds, and my
reaction on finishing *Cat* was that the book was irresponsible and
undisciplined. It seems to be part of an ongoing effort to cobble up
some great master scheme incorporating the entire RAH canon and
anything else that strikes his fancy. I suspect that it is this idea
of a master-plot that results in books like *Cat*, and not just a
desire to crank one out for the bucks. (I'd guess bucks are no
longer a major concern of his.)

  What we get, then, are works with all the literary values of a
jigsaw puzzle. Unless you're into trying to find where all the
brightly colored little pieces go, you're not going to have a good
time, or even an interesting time. And that, considering what has
gone before, is a real shame.

  Summary of sorts :
  I didn't think the book was short or skiffy (SciFi). I did think
it was bad. It's not the epitome of the RAH novel. He's been writing
sf since before the Second World War, and he's changed a lot in that
time. There *is* no epitome of the Heinlein novel.

  Finally, if the original posting was actually intended as a
comment on the fiction of H. R. Haldeman (not related, so far as I
know, to Joe and Jack), ignore everything I've said. (At this point,
I might insert one of these things :-) , to indicate that the last
sentence was written in jest. But what if no-one thought it was
funny ? Then where would I be ? It's a hard problem.)


Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
Astronomy Department
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 18:42:54 GMT
From: utastro!howard@caip.rutgers.edu (Howard Coleman)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

"Lifeline", Heinlein's first story, and the one that deals with Dr.
Pinero, is, of course, the lead story in TPTT. I don't see any
mention of Lazarus Long in it.

"Methuselah's Children" is the final piece in TPTT. On page 635 of
the Science Fiction Book Club edition (two or three pages before the
end of Chapter 3 in part II), the following passage appears
(Copyright 1958 Robert A. Heinlein) :

  But there he stood. "Lazarus," she asked, "how long do you expect
to live?"
  "Me? Now that's an odd question. I mind a time when I asked a chap
that very same question--about me, I mean, not about him. Ever hear
of Dr. Hugo Pinero?"
  "'Pinero . . . Pinero . . .' Oh, yes, 'Pinero the Charlatan.'"
  "Mary, he was no charlatan. He could do it, no foolin'. He could
predict accurately when a man would die."
  "But-- Go ahead. What did he tell you?"
  "Just a minute. I want you to realize that he was no fake. His
predictions checked out right on the button - if he hadn't died, the
life insurance companies would have been ruined. That was before you
were born, but I was there and I know. Anyhow, Pinero took my
reading and it seemed to bother him. So he took it again. Then he
returned my money."
  "What did he say?"
  "Couldn't get a word out of him." ...

Pinero at the beginning and again at the end. Nice symmetry, eh ?

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
Astronomy Department
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 18:31:39 GMT
From: watnot!ctkierstead@caip.rutgers.edu (caroline kierstead)
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long

As a matter of interest, Lazarus Long has also appeared as a
character in *Number of the Beast* and *The Cat Who Could Walk
Through Walls* (sp?) which is Heinlein's latest novel.

------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1986 13:24:12 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Re: Silverlock

   I read _Silverlock_ about a year ago and I'm afraid I don't see
why it is considered a Masterpiece. It was a good read, yes, and
very well written, but it didn't make as profound an impact on me as
it apparently did on Niven, Pournelle, and Anderson. Perhaps I've
missed something (other than a goodly protion of the literary
references); could anyone enlighten me on this?

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 20:43:32 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen

Title: The Doomsday Effect by Thomas Wren

Jim Baen claims "reads like a cross between Hogan and Heinlein".  So
OK, I said to myself, how much can he be exaggerating?  I'm here to
tell you, he can exaggerate one h*ll of a lot.  I mean I almost feel
like doing Dangerfield schtick here:

    Oooohh that was a bad book, lemme tell ya, oooooh it's bad.  The
    last time I saw readin' mater'ial like 'dat it had a fish
    wrapped in it.  It was bad I tell ya.  And inaccurate?  It
    should be put in the Guiness Book a' Records for Most Inaccurate
    Hard Science Fiction.  I asked my wife what she thought of the
    book, an' she said it reminded her of me... a real looser.  I
    get no respect, no respect at all...

The dialog and characterization wasn't all *that* bad, mind you.  In
fact it was fairly good as such things go.  It's just that most of
the motivation and action in the thing was centered around such
horrible technical inaccuracies that it was *very* hard to get into
the story.  Normally, a few little glitches don't bother me at all,
even if I notice them, but here the *whole* *thing* was one long
glitch.

                         (SPOILERS FOLLOW)

The primary plot involves a black hole that the earth captures by
means not specified.  (It turns out that the Wren doesn't know how
or why bodies are captured into stable orbits.) The orbital path
takes the black hole into the earth itself for part of the orbit.
Wren states that the orbit is "a perfect ellipse".  Not so for an
orbit that penetrates a mass...  while inside the earth, the force
doesn't vary by inverse square, but by *direct* proportion (as in an
ideal spring).

So, OK, we overlook these first problems (capture and orbit).  Next,
how do our heroes propose to deal with this problem before it
consumes the earth?  Well, they are going to capture it with an
asteroid (ultimately, Ceres).  But Wren clearly doesn't understand
how such captures would occur at all, stating that all that is
necessary is to arrange for an asteroid of sufficent size to cross
the black hole's path.  He implicitly says that the speed of the
intersection doesn't matter (implicit in the calculations the heroes
use to model the situation).  Yuck. Further, though he often
mentions that the earth's material doesn't affect the hole's orbit,
he raises a "danger" that, if the capture attempt at apogee fails,
the black hole could be "slowed down" and "fall into" the earth,
never to rise above the surface again.  Sigh.

Ok, ok, let's overlook the fact that all the main action of the
piece is predicated on bogus orbital mechanics which most sharp
high-schoolers should know better than.  But when things get
underway, Wren demonstrates further problems.  A small (by no means
complete) selection:

  Talks about "antiphotons" as if these were current knowlege.
  Gives them the magic property of causing a black hole to expell
  it's mass.  Says Hawking knew all about this from the start.
  Right.

  Talks about the asteroid belt as if it were practically solid.  I
  thought this kind of nonsense went out in the 40s?

  Has an absolutely ludicrous use of "asteroid billiards".  In the
  face of the "shooter" admitting ignorance of the precise masses
  and orbits of the asteroids involved, nevertheless the "shooter"
  co-ordinates literally thousands of impulses (using thermonuclear
  devices) and near misses, with NO FEEDBACK, just a one-shot setup,
  and manuvers Ceres into a stable orbit around the earth.  Gad.

  Has some of the material infalling on the hole spewed outward in
  twin jets from the poles of the accretion disk.  Fine, fine.  But
  then at one point describes how the jet that points in the same
  direction as the orbit is "folded back", while the "rearward" jet
  is straight.  In a vacuum.  In free-fall.  Right.

  To cap it all off, has a major character wonder what to do with a
  process for "inverting" normal matter to produce antimatter
  cheaply.  After much soul-searching, character comes up with (oh,
  such an original thought) energy production!  Double Gad!

All in all, not a chapter goes by in which the reader isn't jarred
out of the story by some obvious, silly, and (drat it all)
*PREVENTABLE* mistake like those mentioned above.  Mind you, Wren
might be somebody to watch if he ever cleans up his technical act,
since it was clear to me that it was the continual barrage of
inaccuracy that spoiled the book.  Unless and until, watch out.

(So, why did I finish it?  Well, I eventually got into the game of
finding these things.  Not that they were hard to locate but it got
sort of fun to pick them out as I went along.)

(And for those of you who are saying "picky, picky, picky!" at this
point: my problem wasn't that the information was inaccurate.  I put
up with inaccurate backgrounds frequently.  The problem was that the
inaccuracies were central to the plot, so that the main characters
kept doing bizarre, inconsistent, and futile things much of the
time.)

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 05:12:11 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths)

Do you have any more information about these myths (titles, books I
can find them in, rumors to pointers to references...)?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 19:49:13 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan)
Subject: Re: Numenor & Atlantis(actually Celtic myths)

> Do you have any more information about these myths (titles, books
> I can find them in, rumors to pointers to references...)?

  If you are interested in sf dealing with this, try The Copper
Crown by P. Kenneally, a novel of the reunification of Earth and the
Kelt empire.  The Kelts are actually the descendants of Celts and
Irishman who use magic, psi, or whatever.  They left Earth when the
Christians arrived and waged war against magic in the 400's.  At one
point they say that before that they came from Atlantis and that the
Atlantians where actually from another planet altogether.  An
interesting concept that forms a good foundation for a good story.
The book just came out this month I think.

Bryan
UCDavis

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 14:47:12 GMT
From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson)
Subject: Celtic myth references

   There's the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Celtic myths.
There's also a series of five juveniles (one won the Newberry) by
Susan Cooper which have several references to Celtic myths.

Karen Christenson
dartvax!chelsea

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 86 13:03:53 GMT
From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

randy@ranhome.UUCP (Randy Horton) writes:
>daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes:
>>...(Stainless Steel Rat books would make good films)...
>>
>>      We could never agree on an actor to play the mighty
>>Slippery Jim DiGriz though - Harrison Ford or James Caan perhaps??
>>And who would play the delectable Angelina????? :-)
>
>I think that Bruce Willis ( of Moonlighting) could be a good
>choice.  He has the right style of humor for it.  I think that he
>also could look like someone like Slippery Jim.

   OK - I admit it - I watched an episode of Moonlighting last night
and I actually agree with Randy. I think that Bruce Willis would
have to lose a bit of weight though...

   The only suggestion I've had so far for Angelina is Jane Seymour,
but I don't really agree with this one. Anybody else have any
suggestions?  Probably need someone with martial arts training.

David Allsopp

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 05:45:03 GMT
From: sunybcs!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

>Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?!  The idea of recasting the crew
>came up for ST I (The Motion Sickness).  The fannish outrage caused
>them to reconsider.  This was what got us Decker, etc. as they
>tried to phase in a replacement crew.  We all know how far THAT
>got.  A good portion of Trek's continuing popularity is the
>identification with the crew members.  Expect this one to sink
>fast.

I disagree.  I can see you point about people watching it to
identify with the characters they have learned to love, but I do not
think that changing the cast will wipe out Star Trek.  It would if
they had replacements for Kirk, Spock, etc..., but as long as it is
known to be a different crew (and a different ship...obviously), I
think (hope) that the new series will do well.  Many fans didnt like
ST I, but that isn't because of the casting, all our favorite crew
members were still there, and the addition of a character (Decker)
did not make any difference (characters were always being added to
the series).  As long as there are GOOD scripts, the show should do
well (among trekkies/trekkers at least).

Timothy D. Thomas
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim
CSnet: tim@buffalo
ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 20:36:35 GMT
From: dave@andromeda.RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Bloom)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies was
because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new
characters central to the plot. After all those years I wanted see
Kirk & Crew and instead got two hours of Decker the wimp and the
cue-ball woman.... a total turn-off. Without the old characters, ST
is just another Sci-Fi... Might as well introduce another Sci-Fi
series and start fresh rather than have the constraints of an old
one which had MANY inconsistencies.

I think the characters, regardless of their age, still make the old
magic happen.... That's why TWOK was so good. Surely they can be
moved to other positions while still keeping their centrality to the
plot.

Dave Bloom
Office: (201)648-5083
{harvard|seismo|ut-sally|allegra|ihnp4!packard}!topaz!andromeda!dave

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 04:11:59 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Has this been done?

     Your idea re. a book based on Tarot cards sounds something like
what Piers Anthony was doing with his Tarot trilogy ("God of Tarot"
was one of them) and the related series ("Cluster"?).

James Omura, Barrister & Solicitor, Toronto
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura
Byte Information eXchange: jimomura
(416) 652-3880

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 13:36:58 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Has this been done?

My quote of the week ...

   If you can come to such friendly terms with yourself that you are
   able to say precisely what you think of any given situation, if
   you can tell a story as it can appear only to you of all the
   people on earth, you will inevitably have a piece of work which
   is original.

   Dorothea Brande, in "Becoming a Writer"

So screw worrying about if it's been done -- if it's powerful enough
in your imagination, it'll be new and different even if someone else
used the gimmick.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 86 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Jul 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 202

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 15:17:55 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes:
>I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.
>
>1) TIME
>
>2) PLOT SLIP-UP
>
>3) Strategy slip-up
>
>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

In points 1-3 I agree in full.  But the first part of 4...

The Alien(s) did NOT pilot the derelict.  They were parasites.
Remember the giant who they found chest-bursted?  They were the
pilots.

Obvious sequel: Go back and destroy the derelict.  It more than
likely was NOT destroyed by the nuclear explosion and God knows how
many eggs are still down there.

Point: When Ripley hit the airlock, ole Queenie was hanging on to
her leg and Ripley onto the ladder.  Why didn't Ripley's leg and the
Queen fly off into space?  I'd think Ripley's joints would fail
before the Queen's strength (remember Bishop?).  Sigh.

Question: Anybody know how they filmed the powerloader sequences?
It would seem to me that it would be hideously overbalanced given
the size of those hydraulic claws.  Maybe lots and lots of
braces....

Jeff Okamoto
..!ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 15:28:32 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Music from Aliens

One thing that I hated was that James Horner STOLE music from many
major sci-fi movies.  Did people notice stuff from 2001, Star Wars,
ST:The Motion Sickness, and STII: The Wrath of the Children of the
Corn?  And they didn't even credit the music!

Jeff Okamoto
..!ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 10:54:18 GMT
From: shipley@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Peter Shipley)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

The ship was someone else's that crashed. (remember the giant
skeleton in the command chair)

At the end how did she live thru the pressure drop, let alone hold
on.

The grenade belt should have made a bigger bang compared to the one
going off.

Why didn't the artificial get taken home by the Aliens, I was
waiting for him to get munched then have the Alien puke.

What I want to see is "The Thing vs The Alien".

Pete
shipley@pavepaws.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!pavepaws!shipley
shipley@violet.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!violet!shipley

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 21:56:40 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
> The Alien(s) did NOT pilot the derelict.  They were parasites.
> Remember the giant who they found chest-bursted?  They were the
> pilots.

Quite correct, although I don't doubt that the Aliens have a native
intelligence equal to that of humans or derelict builders.  I
believe this because the Aliens have always been intelligent enough
to figure out humans intentions, with technology, which implies an
understanding of the technology.  Maybe the Aliens are a xenomorph
equivalent of the Amish, who don't feel the need to use technology
to get their ends, in other words, the Aliens are "Earth Mamas".

As far as "not showing a glimmer of intelligence", who says it was
happenstance that the Aliens built their nest in the one area where
they had access to underground tubes, and where heavy weapons
couldn't be used against them?

> Point: When Ripley hit the airlock, ole Queenie was hanging on to
> her leg and Ripley onto the ladder.  Why didn't Ripley's leg and
> the Queen fly off into space?  I'd think Ripley's joints would
> fail before the Queen's strength (remember BIshop?).  Sigh.

I think that Ripley should at least have lost a foot.  It would have
been more believeable, and also would have shown that in the _REAL_
world, the ending is not always a happy one.

> Question: Anybody know how they filmed the powerloader sequences?
> It would seem to me that it would be hideously overbalanced given
> the size of those hydraulic claws.  Maybe lots and lots of
> braces....

Believe it or not, major portions of the battle between the Queen
and Ripley were done with models.  It was excellent stop action
model photography, and probably used matts to make it seem as if
Ripley really was in the powerloader model.

Robert Allen,
robert@sri-spam.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 15:20:00 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: ALIENS inconsistency ?

   Okay, so the company (in ALIEN) diverts an oil-conversion plant
to check out a potentially dangerous alien signal. (isn't that what
all the special secret messages to Ash were ? and why he finally
tried to kill Ripley in the first version ?)  So the Company sends
them out to face this thing, and then they disappear for 57 years or
so. No biggie.  When Ripley comes back, the company doesn't believe
her ?  Wasn't the whole kicker of ALIEN that the company had set
them up to get wasted ?

   Years later, the colony disappears, and the company is
*surprised*?  It doesn't make sense. and then they still don't
believe her and only send a small party ?  Even THE COMPANY isn't
that dumb.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 16:52:51 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: ALIENS - public domain idea....

   Few years ago I gave away a whole bunch of "ALIEN" t-shirts at a
con (balticon@hunt valley) In green letters across the chest "ALIEN"
then underneath, a large uneven blotch of red silk-screen paint,
with a big hole ripped into it with scissors....

You'll be amazed at the disgusted looks you'll get. Feel free to use
the idea, but don't sell it, or I'll send my pet after you...

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 22:54:18 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

shipley@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Peter Shipley) writes:
> At the end how did she live thru the pressure drop, let alone hold
> on.

The same thing happened in 2001 when Dave entered the spaceship by
blowing an external hatch and doing an EVA without any equipment.
My understanding is that humans can survive exposure to vacuum for
short periods of time, although popping of surface blook vessels and
other such stuff may occur.  Anyone have concrete knowledge of this?

> The gernade belt should have made a bigger bang compared to the
> one going off.

Yes, in fact, I'm surprised she lived through the detonation of
multiple grenades in such an enclosed area.  Of course, like
throwing a pack of firecrackers down, there is no guarantee that
they will all go off.

> Why didn't the artificial get taken home by the Aliens, I was
> waiting for hIm to get munched then have the Alien puke.

Aha.  This was discussed a little in the book.  In fact, he had a
run in with an Alien while 'shooting the tube', but apparently he
didn't register (smell right?) with the Aliens, and so survived.
Given his 'alien' structure, it is quite possible that the
artificial couldn't support Alien life.

> What I want to see is "The Thing vs The Alien".

What I want to see is Robert Heinlein suing Cameron for use of the
term "bughunt".  It would be a shame, particularly given the upset
caused by Harlan Ellisons claims in.re. the plot of the Terminator.

Robert Allen,
robert@sri-spam.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 17:15:59 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: ALIENS

                               ALIENS
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review: James Cameron (THE TERMINATOR) turns in an
     exciting sequel to a near-classic science fiction film.  In
     spite of many problems, this will still be, very probably, the
     best fantasy film of the season.

   There are a number of ways to do a sequel to a film.  The best
sort of sequel broadens the context of the story in ways the second
half of a story does to the first half.  There is also the
more-of-the-same approach to sequel-making.  ALIENS is a riveting
action film but it is too much of a more-of-the-same sequel.  The
viewer will leave the theater a bit out of breath, but not knowing
much more about the nature of society in the future or the nature of
the alien life form.  We learn less new about the alien life form in
ALIENS than we learn in five minutes of the original film.

   The story deals with Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) making it back to
civilization and a return visit by some very Heinleinesque
marines--loaded with some heavy firepower--to the planet where
Ripley's first expedition found the alien.  Because of an apparent
error in editing we are not sure how much time has passed, but we
are led to believe that this is 57 years later and the planet has
been terra-formed and colonized by humans.

   As a sequel, ALIENS has at least two problems.  As the title
suggests, where there was one monster in ALIEN, this film has many.
One would expect each one to be as bad as the monster in the first
film.  No way.  The creature in the first film could have eaten for
breakfast most of the monsters in the second film.  In specific, the
creature in the first film was invulnerable to flame throwers, I
think.  It seems to me that the new creatures of the same species
are not.  There just is not enough time to make each creature as
bad.  The film DAWN OF THE DEAD suffered from the same sort of
deflation in monster power.

   Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters."  The
film introduces a child character.  It is a serious mistake because
scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to chivalry
about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic characters
like children.  Compare how much softer the tone, and how much less
satisfying, the later "Planet of the Apes" films are when compared
to the first one or two films.  Consider films like THE POSEIDON
ADVENTURE where only the weak survive.

   One final problem is the predictability of certain scenes.
Relatively early in the film I was seeing scenes and saying to
myself, "I bet there will be a scene in which such-and-such happens
later."  At least twice I was right about important plot twists
toward the end.

   So with all that going against the film, I must not have liked
it, right?  Wrong!  ALIENS is an exciting film.  It is not of the
quality of its predecessor, but it has plenty to offer.  Rumors were
that because it was directed by James Cameron it would be closer to
TERMINATOR II than to ALIEN II.  Not so.  This is a solid
action-packed film and even if it is not the most profound piece of
science fiction I've seen in a while, it was solid suspense and
action.  Pieces of the film have a real Heinleinesque feel to them
and there is even a reference to John Campbell's Laws of Robotics
(popularized by Asimov).  While ALIEN deserved a high +2 on the -4
to +4 scale, its sequel gets at worst a low +2.  This is likely to
be the big science fiction film of the season.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 23:42:01 GMT
From: rna!dan@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan Ts'o)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

>I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.
>
>1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must
>have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and
>crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means
>it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there,
>some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the
>"gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of
>days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this
>tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me
>they were "saving" these folks for YEARS.

   True, the crew goes into hibernation. But it isn't clear that it
means that it takes a long time to get there. Perhaps it only takes
a week to get there but they go to sleep to conserve energy and not
get bored.
   In fact, when the question arises about a possible rescue mission
for the crew, the answer was 17 days, although it wasn't clear
whether that meant 17 days til they send a rescue mission or 17 days
til a rescue mission can arrive.  Nevertheless, I got the impression
that it would only take a week or two to get there. And it isn't
clear that all the colonist got "slimed" by the time the radio
signals stopped although it couldn't have been more than a few days
afterwards for the last adult colonist to get slimed.
   There was also some mention that I don't quite recall that Newt,
the little girl, has survived for a few weeks.

>2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything
>about creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
>research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples
>in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS,
>see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT
>TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ??
>C'mon....

   As above, I don't think its years, but weeks.

>3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
>for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
>Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
>a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

   I agree - stupid.

>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

   I don't believe those were the actual circumstances. The large
crashed space ship, I believe, was of another intelligent race. It
sent out a warning beacon, saying 'stay away', which Ripley's ship
intercepted in "Alien". The other race also fell victim to the
Aliens.
   True, the Aliens in "Aliens" exhibited very little intelligence.
The Queen did show some. Does that mean that normal (drone ?) Aliens
don't have intelligence ? Perhaps. Also, if the Queen had enough
intelligence to use and elevator, it should have enough intelligence
to use a gun. I guess you could argue that the Alien's goal was not
to kill the crew but to use them as incubators.

>There are others, but these seem the biggest to me. But don't get
>me wrong, it's a great movie.

   I also thought it was a great movie. The sum total was impressive
and entertaining. I did not think it was as scary as "Alien" - much
less in the BOO! department. I also thought that Sigourney Weaver
wasn't in perfect acting form, tending towards the melodramatic at
times. The sequence which tries to convince you that this woman,
scared shitless and having continuous nightmare, changes her mind
from no way wanting to go back, to agreeing to go back, is far from
convincing - it is also too short to be convincing (but that isn't
Weaver's fault). It probably would have been better off starting
directly with the new mission or portraying her as being anxious to
go back to destroy the Aliens.
   Best scene (though somewhat predictable) is when Ripley comes out
to do battle with the Queen in the man(person?)-amplifier (the
loading helper).
   Since the Queen manages to survive liftoff and space long enough
to hang on to the second shuttle and show up in the mother ship,
there is the possibility that she could somehow survive the ejection
from the mother ship into space to return (in Alien 3). Then, there
is still always the cat...

Cheers,
Dan Ts'o
Dept. Neurobiology
Rockefeller Univ.
1230 York Ave.
NY, NY 10021
212-570-7671
...cmcl2!rna!dan
rna!dan@cmcl2.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 86 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Jul 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 203

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 19:48:02 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Valar/Maiar living in Middle Earth

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>I don't recall the Valar or the Maiar actually living in Middle
>Earth (excluding a couple of Valar who were virtually part of
>Middle Earth).

I beg to differ.  What about Melian the Maia, who wed Elu Thingol
and bore Idril (?), who married Tuor?

And what about Ulmo, who supposedly dwelt in the Sea?

Jeff Okamoto
..!ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 86 23:47:24 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who were the Istari?

>Saruman as a Maia? I thought he was numbered among the Istar;
>longlived but mortal!
>
>What was the origin of the Istar anyhow?

Both at once: the Istari were Maiar.  There is material concerning
them in either Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales -- so once again, we
cannot have complete confidence in what it says, but there is
nevertheless nowhere else to look.

The Istari were evidently five Maiar who were highly considered by
the Valar, including Elbereth.  In Valinor they were summoned and
dispatched to Middle Earth to help Elves and Men against Sauron's
plots -- after the disaster of Beleriand, the Valar didn't dare try
matching their power against his openly -- not that they would have
lost, but half Middle Earth might have been destroyed in the
process.  The five were forbidden to use their power against Sauron
openly, presumably for the same reason.

Of the five, Curunir and Olorin are mentioned specifically.
According to the account, Elbereth particularly wanted Olorin to go,
though he was reluctant, having concerns of his own in Valinor.
When he was named as "the last", Elbereth put in "not the last", and
the account says Curunir remembered that, implying that the seeds of
their eventual rivalry and enmity were laid there.  Considering that
for many centuries after that Curunir worked honestly in his
commission, and was trusted for longer than that, I'm not sure how
much credence to put in the implication.

"Immortal" in Middle Earth does not seem to mean "impervious to
death", but rather "not dying naturally with the passage of time".
Certainly Elves enough came to death over the course of three Ages.
According to Silmarillion, a couple of Balrogs were also killed (by
Elves, so it was not simply a matter of greater powers destroying
lesser).

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jul 86 00:15:43 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Evil in Tolkien not understanding good



MRC@PANDA writes:
>     Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it quite clear that part of the
>nature of evil is that it cannot understand good, which was one of
>the main weapons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. had against Sauron.  They
>all knew what Sauron was up to but Sauron had no way of
>understanding their plans.

gds@sri-spam responds in part:
>I believe Tolkien said that evil, Morgoth specifically, cannot
>understand mercy.  Morgoth did not expect the Valar to return to
>Middle-Earth to do battle with him and his armies because he did
>not believe that the Valar cared any more about the exiles.
>Morgoth did in fact understand much of what was going on in
>Middle-Earth . . .

I would say this is the right track.  I think what was meant was
that the Good have motivations which Evil cannot understand, and
that however finely Evil judges (and Gandalf often warns that Sauron
is in fact very wise), it cannot properly take account of those
motivations, and therefore misjudges.  Mercy was certainly among
those motivations.  A desire simply to end domination, rather than
replacing one dominator with another, was another.  This was the
slim hope on which the Quest of the Ring was based: the likelihood
that, in all his plans and considerations, it would never occur to
Sauron that, having found his Ring, his enemies would try destroy
it, instead of using it against him.  (This is all said at the
Council of Elrond, which I won't repeat here.)

I might almost say that the set of motivations of the "Evil" were a
subset of those of the "Good": "Good" could therefore understand
them all, but "Evil" was restricted to understanding only its own.
Which was one of "Good"'s few advantages, because the "Evil" parties
frequently had much greater strength.  In the end (Sauron's,
specifically), it was the telling advantage; but it came within a
hairsbreadth of not being so.

By the way, I think Tolkien would want it emphasised that the "Evil"
and "Good" of the argument are purely those of various parties in
Middle Earth.  He stated plainly his dislike of allegory, so I think
it should be understood that no broader statements concerning Evil
and Good are implied.  He would in any case have left such work to
his good friend C. S. Lewis, who did it magnificently.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 09:05:07 GMT
From: maryland!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindor)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al.

robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>One thing that is very clear in Tolkien is that the Elves just
>aren't very interested in things that aren't Elvish.  The only
>reason Men are mentioned as often as they are in Elvish chronicles
>is that Men played a major part in the Elvish wars against Morgoth
>and Sauron.

I would not have put it quite that way, but that is, for the most
part, true, I suppose.

>Elvish writings on other races were always hit-or-miss.  They
>remembered many old songs about the Ents, but hadn't actually
>*visited* them in centuries. They virtually ignored the Eagles.
>They dealt with Dwarves rarely (except for the Elves of Hollin (and
>look what happened to them!:-) ), and hadn't even *noticed*
>Pukel-men or hobbits.

Much of this is overstatement.  And for that matter, what is a few
hundred years more or less to an Elf?  (Well, I admit it is quite a
bit to *me*, but I am very young.  When Celeborn---not the famous
one, but named after him---speaks of `a while ago', for example, he
may mean a millenium!)

>Thus, even if the Elves once knew where all these guys came from,
>the individuals with the knowledge passed over the sea, or got hit
>over the head with an Orc's club, and their knowledge wasn't
>preserved.  And by the Third Age, the Elves weren't traveling much
>any more, so they were unlikely to re-discover anything.

On the contrary, the knowledge was passed down in song and story.
It is true that most of the High-elves were rather stationary then,
though according to our own legends, my ancestors were still
wandering about.  Who, you may wonder, were those?

In your translations, it is said that the last Elves left Middle-
earth in the Fourth Age.  This statement is quite clear, succint,
unequivocal---and wrong.  Someone seems to have forgotten us again!
There is one group of Elves seldom mentioned: the Avari.  Perhaps
someday I shall tell our story.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 1516)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jul 86 10:34:40 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Tolkien

    Excuse me for making this statement, as I am not an authority,
just a fan, but things are getting a little out of hand here.
    First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the
author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote.  And
then, Mr Milne (who seems to be an authority, with a lot of
carefully thought out and well presented views on Middle Earth) goes
and agrees with him.  NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!!!
    Middle Earth is not a real place.  It would be really nice if it
were, and I would be in line to buy tickets to the place on the
first flight out.  But, the whole carefully thought out, well
researched place is only a creation - it doesn't exist.  Therefore,
it doesn't have an objective reality apart from what Mr Tolkien has
presented us with.  I think that if I wrote a novel, or a series of
novels, and someone thereafter refused to believe anything else I
wrote about the world-setting of that/those novel(s), I would be
furious!
    LotR is a novel, a story, recounting the destruction of the One
Ring.  The other books are histories relating in more detail the
past, and even the 'present' (in terms of LotR) of Middle Earth.  I
see no reason that the Silmarillion, especially (tho some of the
more recent books are getting more and more fragmentary and
contradictory), cannot be taken as the truth as it exists in Middle
Earth.  Mr Tolkien was a master, but it doesn't seem all that likely
that he would conjure up mis-facts about the world he was creating,
just because he was creating history and legend.  After all,
wouldn't we all like the legends of the real world to be true?
Well, Tolkien's legends were in Middle Earth.
    Also, tho he began creating his world long before LotR came out,
he never stopped.  I think he can be forgiven if a few errors crept
into the manuscript (some of you out there might ascribe these
errors as mis-translations from Westron, or, as was the case when
our own books were hand-copied, a slip of the pen, or, since the Red
Book was written after the fact, just a bad memory), or errors
developed as he focused his creation over the years after the first
editions were published.  To ignore his words about his own work,
even when they contradict what was set down in LotR (which has yet
to be carved in stone, anyway), seems to me to be a vast disservice
to the Creator of Middle Earth - taking away his deed to his
creation.
    (This should spark a lively, if a little hot, discussion, eh?
:-)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 17:53:26 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Elves reincarnate? (was Re: Orcs)

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>No, [Elves] *are* reincarnated. It is even mentioned(in passing) in
>The Silmarillion, I believe in the early creation accounts where
>the natures of the various races are described. The basic point is
>this, the Elves are tied for all time to Ea, while Men after a
>brief time in the halls of Mandos pass beyond Ea into a different
>existance, presumably what we call Heaven.

I was going to post this article in opposition to Sarima, but (-: to
my horror :-) I find that he is right:

In Chapter One "Of the Beginning of Days" of _The Silmarillion_,
JRRT writes:

   ...the Elves die not until the world dies . . . and dying they
   are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, _whence they may
   in time return_ [emphasis mine].

   There is some question as to what ultimately happens to Men,
   though:

In Chapter Twelve "Of Men" [ibid.]:

   What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not.
   Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place
   of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under
   Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of
   recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.

   It makes sense that Men would in fact stay briefly in Mandos, for
Luthien must have had a chance to catch up to Beren and persuade
Namo to allow her to bring him back.  (I was originally going to use
Beren and Luthien as evidence, saying "What makes them so special if
reincarnation is fairly commonplace?" when I remembered the answer:
Luthien is special because she in truth died as Men do, and Beren is
special because he alone of _Men_ reincarnated.  They were both
special in many other ways, too, of course, but I'm talking
post-death matters here.)

pH

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 20:09:44 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al.

robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so
>fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there.  Tom Bombadil
>is another who falls into this category.  For that matter, so do
>Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and Radagast the
>Brown.

   No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent*
to Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 18:25:04 GMT
From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Not Bored of the Rings Yet

Thanks to Stella for tipping me off on the raging Tolkien
discussion.  Some random notes on subjects recently discussed
follow.

A helpful hint for reading _The Silmarillion_: there are basically
five main "new" stories in it: the story of Feanor and the fall of
the Noldor, the story of Beren and Luthien, the story of Turin, the
story of Earendil, and (interspersed all through the Beleriand part)
the story of Maeglin, Tuor, and Gondolin in general.  I consider the
rest of it as just framework around these five main stories; they
can be read somewhat separately (Beren and Luthien is the best
example), though with a finger in the appendices.

Atalante: see Carpenter's biography of Tolkien for indisputable
evidence that the Numenor myth grew out of Tolkien's interest in
Atlantis.

Bombadil: I could see him most easily as a Maia.  Goldberry: he
refers to her as "River-Woman's daughter" -- I assume this means she
is the daughter of Uinen (the female Maia of inland waters) and her
mate Osse (the male Maia of the coasts).

Elves reincarnated?: I believe Glorfindel is the *only* example of
any Elf being reincarnated, and that may even be a glitch in JRRT's
universe that was just pointed out by CJRT.  Normally I think Elves
went back to Valinor (not to Mandos proper) after death -- when
Finrod dies, for example, he is said to be rejoined in Valinor with
his father Finarfin, who never died.

Saruman's death: I read the cloud looking to the West as Saruman
asking to be reincarnated in the same way as Gandalf was.

Galadriel: one of the major problems JRRT faced in compiling _Silm_
was how to fit Galadriel in, she being a later addition to the
universe. I don't think even he completely understood her place in
with the rest of the (rather nasty) Noldor.

Sauron in the Fall of Gondolin: I doubt it.  I'm a kind of expert on
Gondolin and I don't believe JRRT or CJRT ever mentioned Sauron
being there.  I think after his run-in with Luthien he just kind of
cowered in Thangorodrim.  Gothmog seems to have been the field
general for the conquest of Gondolin.

Choice/Mortality: I recently posted to net.games.frp about my theory
of all this stuff.  The Noldor, in choosing to defy the Valar,
partially forfeited their immortality ("slain ye can be, and slain
ye shall be"). Turin and Tuor were basically manipulated by Valar
(Morgoth and Ulmo, respectively), and effectively gained immortality
in this way (Turin was invincible and had to kill himself, Tuor
became really immortal).  I believe it was Gryphon who gave a good
"mythopoeic" explanation for the connection.

Ungoliant: it may be that her name was derived from the word for
"spider", but since Tolkien suggests that she was the progenitor for
all spiders, it's more likely that the word for "spider" was derived
from her name.

Theory of Shape-Shifting?: where the power of shape-shifting comes
from is an interesting area, one which Tolkien seemingly wasn't
interested enough to explore.  Seems to be just a form of "magic"
that lots of beings, even mortals, found useful enough to learn.

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 86 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 204

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Farmer & Heinlein & May &
                         McCollum & Myers,
                 Films - Books into Films (4 msgs),
                 Music - SF Music (2 msgs),
                 Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) &
                         Star Trek (3 msgs) & Gerry Anderson,
                 Miscellaneous - SF Writers Group (2 msgs) &
                         Has This Been Done? (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 23:35:07 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: When will the Riverworld Series End?

simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) writes:
>does anybody have any idea when the riverworld series (used to be
>trilogy...)  by Farmer will end. i've been reading it for such a
>long time and would like an ending :-(

I think it ended after the second book.  Someone forgot to tell
Farmer, though.  (chuq -- note heavy grin....)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 17:46:16 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Lazarus Long, found in _The_Past...

ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
>I recently re-read several of the stories in TPTT, and it seems
>unlikely that any of the characters in, for instance, "The Long
>Watch" or "Gentlemen, Be Seated" could have been LL. I suspect, in
>fact, that he doesn't appear in any recognizable form in >any< of
>the shorts; I believe that most of them predate "Methuselah's
>Children". I don't think that Heinlein got on to this business of
>tying LL into his universes until relatively recently.

   It depends on how you mean "predate"--in the chronology of the
Future History, _Methuselah's Children_ takes place last of all the
stories in _The Past Through Tomorrow_; on the other hand, _MC_ was
his first published novel, so a majority of the stories in _TPTT_
were written after it.  Nevertheless, you are right in that Lazarus
doesn't appear in any of them--in fact, after his first appearance
in _MC_ his second appearance didn't occur until _Time Enough For
Love_, written thirty-five years later.

pH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 23:39:59 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Julian May

> If you thought *Silverlock* dragged in too many myths/legends, by
> all means avoid Julian May's Pleistocene series. I barely made it
> through the first book alive. Aiken Drum, fercryinoutloud!

I haven't read Silverlock yet, but I thought I'd point out that the
Pleistocene series DEFINITELY gets better as you go along.  The
first book got tossed against the wall about 100 pages in, but
someone convinced me to hold on and keep reading.  By the end of the
fourth book, I was in love with the entire series.  There is a LOT
of preliminary material.  Most of the first book is really just
setting the stage for the fun stuff to come.  Keep at it.  You'll
thank me later, just as I thanks the person who sent me back into
the fray.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 19:05:23 GMT
From: wales@neptune.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales)
Subject: McCollum Life Probe sequel?

Does anyone know whether Michael McCollum is planning a sequel to
his "Life Probe" series (LIFE PROBE and PROCYON'S PROMISE)?

His latest book, ANTARES DAWN -- which I bought yesterday and
finished this morning (!) -- is _not_ a "Life Probe" sequel, but a
completely unrelated work.  (I did find it enjoyable, though --
after getting over the *MAJOR* *LETDOWN* of realizing that it wasn't
a sequel after all.)

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 00:35:38 GMT
From: dyon@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dyon Anniballi)
Subject: Re: Silverlock (was Rings)

wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>If you thought *Silverlock* dragged in too many myths/legends, by
>all means avoid Julian May's Pleistocene series. I barely made it
>through the first book alive. Aiken Drum, fercryinoutloud!

I thought the purpose of Silverlock *was* to include thoses
legends/stories/etc.  One of the great pleasures of reading it was
to try to identify as many as possible. (sort of an exploration of
the 'commonwealth of letters'...)  Myers' purpose seemed to be to
get the reader interested in reading other literature (see the very
end of the book).

Morgan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 07:03:35 GMT
From: brahms!jablow@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

I would really like to see a film of THE CAVES OF STEEL, by Asimov.
The movie wouldn't need many special effects, would need few special
sets and mattes, and would be a perfect example of a sf movie of
character as opposed to technology.  Any comments?

Respectfully,
Eric Robert Jablow
MSRI
ucbvax!brahms!jablow

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 22:26:37 GMT
From: tekcrl!patc@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

   I think a book that would make a great film is "Rendezvous with
Rama" by Arthur C. Clarke. It is a good story and would require some
( but not a lot) of SFX. It has a lot of action, a plot that has
several threads running through it, and a logical story line. The
only problem with it as a movie, The director would probably have
one of the aliens jump out and eat someone.

Pat Caudill
Tektronix!tekcrl!patc

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 21:33:14 GMT
From: griffith@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (Cutter John)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

jablow@brahms.UUCP (Eric Robert Jablow) writes:
>I would really like to see a film of THE CAVES OF STEEL, by Asimov.
>Any comments?

Excellent idea!  I think the other two, however, would fail as
movies.  The plot of all three books are science fiction on the
surface, but I think that COS would be the only one to sell as a SF
movie, since it is the one of the three with the strongest SF
elements.  I think this is mainly because it is the first, and
Asimov had to bring more SF into it to explain the galactic culture
and structure.  The other two are basically nothing more than
mysteries, (although the first one is too, it has the SF to fall
back on), and mysteries generally have a hard time at the box
office.  The matte work would really have to be good, though, to
give the movie the respect it deserves.

Jim Griffith
griffith@pavepaws.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 15:54:22 GMT
From: rec@mplvax.nosc.MIL (Richard Currier)
Subject: Re: Films of favourite sf books

daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp) writes:
>>
>>...(Stainless Steel Rat books would make good films)...
>>
>       The only suggestion I've had so far for Angelina is Jane
>Seymour, but I don't really agree with this one. Anybody else have
>any suggestions?

Christine DeBell !!!!!

richard currier
marine physical lab
u.c. san diego
{ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1986 19:56:25 PDT
Subject: Canonical SF music list
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

Remember all that discussion late last year about SF music? The one
that was a repeat of a discussion from before? etc.?

Well, this is *not* an attempt to start it up again. However, I do
have use for a canonical SF music list. Namely as a resource for a
proposed upcoming show on Hour 25, the L.A. area weekly F&SF radio
show hosted by Harlan Ellison.

Unfortunately, the archives for Volume 10 of SF-L are offline, and
according to Saul can't really be brought back online easily. But
since this topic comes up about once a year, a canonical list would
be useful, and could be added to the archives. So please *mail*, do
not post, to me any of the following you have;

1) A canonical list you constructed last year (this would be
perfect).

2) The information that you have that part of the archives off-line
and FTPable.

3) (Shudder) Any SF related songs/music that you know of. This
includes pop, classical, scores, etc.  Include the
composer/performer if you know it.

I'll post the results to the net. Really. I will.

tyg
galloway@b.isi.edu
...lll-crg!tyg  (the top address is prefered)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 17:31:14 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!taylor@caip.rutgers.edu (Jem Taylor)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?)

Incidentally, there was once a mod(ish)/punk(ish) band, way back in
'78 or so, called 'Max Headroom and the Car Parks'. The only track
of theirs I ever heard was called DONT PANIC ( and this was before
Hitch-hikers Guide, I b'lieve ), with memorable lines like

   DONT PANIC
   ... if you can't afford
   to getta Lambretta
   DONT PANIC
   if you panic then you wont get on the rad-i-o
etc

If anyone knows more of this excellent track and band, please write!

Jem
JANET:  taylor@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
USENET: { uk }!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!taylor

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 14:47:35 GMT
From: davida@umd5.umd.edu (David Arnold)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom origin (?)

jennings@onion.cs.reading.AC.UK (Richard Jennings) writes:
>sch@druky.UUCP writes:
>>      By the by, I am still waiting for someone to come up with
>>the title of this movie.  I would appreciate it.
>
> Believe it or not: ``Max Headroom''.

On Cinemax it was called 'The Max Headroom Story'.  He also hosts
*bad* movies Saturday at 11:30 PM.... he complemented Reefer Madness
quite well ...

David Arnold
University of Maryland
UUCP: {{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs,ihnp4!rlgvax}!cvl!umd5!davida
ARPA:    davida@umd5.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 23 JUL 86 11:14-EST
From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Good old Max again

Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a
crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means?

Jason
Bitnet,Vnet,EARN,NetNorth: jjl8733 at ritvaxc
ARPA: jjl8733%ritvaxc.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 23:28:44 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: flaming re recasting STAR TREK

   One of the major weaknesses of the movies is that they've all had
to bend themselves into odd shapes to keep Kirk out in space 15-20
years after the original 5-year mission. Arguably this is because
Scotty (among others) has aged severely since the TV show was
filmed.
   Starting with a new (or substantially new) crew would be a leap
forward for plausible scripts; there's no reason why a cast couldn't
be found with whom the audience could be as empathetic as with the
originals.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 16:24:49 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes:
>NEFF@su-sierra.arpa writes:
>>The rumor is that 20th Century Fox has (about to) contract with
>>Paramount for a new Star Trek TV series...  There will be an all
>>new cast for the series, with current major characters doing cameo
>>appearances and current minor characters doing entire shows as
>>guests.
>
>Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?!...  A good portion of Trek's
>continuing popularity is the identification with the crew members.
>Expect this one to sink fast.

I don't know about that!  It wouldn't really be Star Trek, but it
still has the potential to be a far-better-than-average SF series.
After all, Star Trek is not the last word in SF for television.
There can be other series...

Andre Guirard
La Diablo kiu Strabas
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 21:52:04 GMT
From: chabot@3d.dec.com
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

> I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies
> was because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new
> characters central to the plot.

I hated "Star Trek: The Motionless Picture" for that too, but for a
different reason: new characters were proposed or introduced, and
then trashed.  I'd like to have both old characters and new ones.
This is also why I hated "The Search for the Director": Kirk's son,
one of the symbols of change and future, gets trashed, so that the
Vulcan Vestal Virgins can resurrect Spock from the guillotine.  Bah.
Why is it only the old characters are redeemed and continue?

Life without change is death.

l s chabot

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 16:44:03 GMT
From: ihuxe!rwn@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Neumann)
Subject: "Gerry Anderson" fan club

A few years ago I saw an ad in the back of STARLOG magazine
regarding a "Gerry Anderson" adult fan club that existed in England.
They published a magazine called "Supermarionation."

For those of you who do not remember, Gerry Anderson is a British
sci-fi tv/movie producer who is responsible for the TV shows
Supercar, Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds, UFO, and Space 1999.
Only UFO and Space 1999 used "real people."  The characters in the
other programs were actually marionettes -lifelike "puppets".  The
shows were very popular in Europe and America and recently had a
popularity resurgence in Japan.

My question is- does the fan club still exist, or are there other
adult fan clubs that now exist that are dedicated to the "Gerry
Anderson" shows?

Also, does anyone know of any sources of videtaped (VHS format)
examples of the older shows, i.e Thunderbirds, etc.  I understand
that videotapes of the shows are available in England, but the video
tape format is different from VHS.

Thank you for your help.

Bob Neumann
9020 Primrose Lane
Hickory Hills, Ill 60457

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 86 00:41:29 GMT
From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: Re: SF Writers' Group

I would be really interested in such a group, and I would appreiate
it if you would put me on the list.  Thanks...

USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 18:16:46 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark )
Subject: Re: SF Writers on the net

> I am an amateur (so far) SF writer and would like to cast another
> vote for an SF writers' group or mailing list.  I am a member of
> the Fantasy & Science Fiction Workshop and would like to know if
> there are any other members who are on the net.  Anyone out there?

   What, pray tell, is the F&SF Workshop?  Is it associated with The
Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction?  And if so, can I join,
please???

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 15:59:49 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola)
Subject: Re: Has this been done?

It's been done.  I've seen several eminently forgettable Tarot books
-- a stranger (Fool) comes into town, established himself as a
(Magician), ticks off the (High Priest), romances HP's girlfriend
(High Priestess), starts messing around with things leading to
(Death), but the noble HP finally kicks some serious *ss, winning
back his girlfriend and most of the known (World).  Get the picture?

I also think that anything involving Tarot cards will look sick when
placed on a shelf next to Zelazny's *Amber* series.  (My apologies
if you're as good a writer as Zelazny.)

I'd *still* like to see this idea done well, but I think you'd have
to do it totally outside of a swords'n'sorcery/fantasy setting.  It
might be interesting in a PARANOIA-type corridor culture, or in a
modern era.  Just stay away from *anything* that might be a cliche.

Good luck!
Pat Juola
Hopkins Maths
{seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}jhunix!ins_apmj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 22:54:45 PDT
From: lah%miro@berkeley.edu (Cmndr. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Tarot Trumps for Chapters

Well, actually, I've done it.  I've sent such a book to 3 publishers
so far without success.  I'm waiting for Avon to buy my latest book
(I know they'll want that one, because it isn't Celtic (but that's
another flame)) and then say, "Oh, by the way, do you have any other
books?" so that I can say, "Oh, I just happen to have this Celtic
book with Tarot Trump chapters."  And by then it will be too late
for them because I'LL HAVE A CONTRACT <snicker> Probably just
wishful thinking, but ya never know...

Regards,
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 86 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 205

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 01:31:26 GMT
From: oakhill!hunter@caip.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

        In ALIEN, the original creatures were found in embryonic
form in an alien spaceship.  The spaceship, however was _not_ built
by the same race as the creature but by another alien race. They
were gigantic by our standards but apparently served the same
incubating function as humans.  The original sets were designed by
H. R. Geiger and were tremendously effective and chilling.

Hunter Scales
Motorola Semiconductor Inc
Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 23:51:32 GMT
From: srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner)
Subject: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS:

* What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in
  hostile territory?

* Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days.  So why use
  cold sleep to make the trip?

* The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing
  craft so he had to circle it around.  But the landing craft was
  shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform?

* Why doesn't Ripley load her guns before she leaves the landing
  craft? Why doesn't she carry an extra clip or two for the gun?
  How about a handgun?  She was also pretty blithe about using the
  gun and the hand grenades underneath the "thermal converters" -
  something she'd warned others against earlier - which was
  presumably more dangerous now that the plant was about to blow
  sky-high.

* Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of
  bio-scan once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't
  carrying an Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens).

* If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try
  the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 05:53:45 GMT
From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen) writes:
>As far as "not showing a glimmer of intelligence", who says it was
>happenstance that the Aliens built their nest in the one area where
>they had access to underground tubes, and where heavy weapons
>couldn't be used against them?

I don't think that's the reason.  In fact, I was surprised that
Ripley never thought to use the big guns on the transport.  More
motivating factors for building the nest where it was:
   1) the first level with a large open central floorspace (under
      the tank) and still labyrinthine approaches, and
   2) heat.  Remember, we're in the midst of a power system's
      cooling hydraulics.
Consider the strong (visual) parallels to a termite colony.

>> Point: When Ripley hit the airlock, ole Queenie was hanging on to
>> her leg and Ripley onto the ladder.  Why didn't Ripley's leg and
>> the Queen fly off into space?  I'd think Ripley's joints would
>> fail before the Queen's strength (remember BIshop?).  Sigh.
>
>I think that Ripley should at least have lost a foot.  It would
>have been more believeable, and also would have shown that in the
>_REAL_ world, the ending is not always a happy one.

Ditto.  I was disappointed.  If losing a limb in the final climax is
good enough for Luke Skywalker, it ought to be good enough for
Ripley.

>> Question: Anybody know how they filmed the powerloader sequences?
>> It would seem to me that it would be hideously overbalanced given
>> the size of those hydraulic claws.  Maybe lots and lots of
>> braces....
>
>Believe it or not, major portions of the battle between the Queen
>and Ripley were done with models.  It was excellent stop action
>model photography, and probably used matts to make it seem as if
>Ripley really was in the powerloader model.

Actually, powered exoskeletons have always been hideously
unbalanced, which is why you don't see them used very often.
General Electric has been manufacturing them for years (almost
decades).

David Hsu  (301) 454-1433 || -8798 || -8715
Communications & Signal Processing Laboratory
Systems Research Center, Bldg 093
The University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
ARPA: hsu@eneevax.umd.edu
UUCP: [seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 09:09:29 EDT (Wednesday)
From: power.Wbst@Xerox.COM
Subject: Aliens

With respect to Jerry Boyajians' positive review of Aliens: I
couldn't agree more.

Small Spoiler:

Jerry notes: 'However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems
as if there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has
been on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control
problem just as Ripley reaches Earth.'

 At one point in the movie, Ripley tells the Company Sleaze that she
knows he sent the colonists to the ship (without warning them of the
dangers) after she told about it in her debriefing.

 My only gripe with the movie was the painfully obvious (to me
anyway) insertion of a sequel possibility at the end.

 Major Spoiler:

 The very convenient departure of the android with the ship gave him
an opportunity to get a bug and stick it on Hicks face.  Remember
that when he finally comes back to get Ripley, Hicks is drugged and
never regains consciousness.  This might not seem important if you
haven't seen the movie but it's pretty obvious that everything was
being set up for a happy ending with Ripley, Hicks and the Kid being
a cozy threesome.  In all such movies the wounded party would come
to woozy consciousness at the end, grasp the heroines hand and give
her a knowing, searching gaze and a smile right before he goes into
deep freeze.  Instead he's just a loose end, an unconsciousness slab
of meat.  To me that says he's got an Alien in his gut waiting to
come out and be 'Son of Aliens', or 'Aliens, Part II or III,
Depending On How You Number It' or perhaps (told from the kids point
of view) ' My Brother Was a Teenage Alien'.

 Ah well, this is a tradition that's been going on since the
silents.  It's just amazing that in movie life no matter how hard
you kill something, it always comes back to eat somebody else.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed 23 Jul 86 11:12:48-EDT
From: Ben Bishop <T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: xenomorph hunts, Alien, Aliens, and information

Aliens - The new movie

Since I've read the book and seen the movie, I thought I'd throw in
a few notes about ALIENS and the messages that have already
appeared.  This may contain ***SPOILERS*** but not more than have
already been written.

First, note that the film is extremely feminist in nature.  Ripley
is the hero.  Newt (a little girl) is the only survivor of a colony
with 150 people.  The biggest, nastiest bug on the planet is 'mom'.
Vasquez is the toughest grunt in the marine troup.  Hunt (the male
tech-op) is a wimp.  Paul Reiser plays a company-man who is a
marvelous worm.  The lieutenant who leads the marines is an
incompetent.  Michael Biehn (of the Terminator fame) plays the only
man who shows any 'guts' in the film; Corporal Hicks, and that only
because he's calm, cool, and follows Ripley's suggestions.

Now, Bruce Cheney writes:

> 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must
> have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and
> crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means
> it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there,
> some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the
> "gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of
> days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this
> tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me
> they were "saving" these folks for YEARS.

'Deep Sleep' does not imply slow ships.  Even if it only takes weeks
to get somewhere (and it did -- remeber when Ripley asked how long
till they would be found overdue?) you don't want to go stir crazy
in a ship.  That is why they sleep.  I must agree that there is some
question for the timing of the embryo implantation to 'hatching'.
Cain (in Alien) couldn't have been out for more than a couple days
(it seemed maybe two) before it burst onto the scene -:).  The
last(?  unclear) colonist gave 'birth' a day or so after the marines
arrived.  Maybe they were taking their time (the colonists weren't
going anywhere).  They also had to get enough eggs to do them all
(there were 150 colonists).

> 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything
> about creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
> research project going on the Alien biology. They even have
> samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for
> YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some time,
> WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ??

They weren't.  The Aliens didn't take over in a day.  The book made
it clear that only one colonist was 'infected' when they first
looked at the space ship.  Give a couple days for it to hatch; a few
more for it to begin infecting others (see below) and then the war
begins.  The colonists (according to the movie) got the live ones by
surgically removing them from their hosts (killing the people they
were attached to in the process).  They at least had a few days
grace to find out what they were fighting before they were overcome.
And, referring to my answer above, those critters only needed to stay
alive in those jars for a few weeks to months at most.

> 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
> for a ground mission?? [...] Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

Yes.  If I only had a dozen people, had a system that was reasonably
automated and was as overconfident as the marines obviously were.
Cap'n Kirk had the accumulated wisdom of Starfleet regarding hostile
Xenomorphs ('bugs' in marine slang) to know not to do that -- not to
mention having a crew of 400 and lots of spare red shirts to order
around.  The marines supposedly had done easy bug hunts before.

> 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
> ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
> they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only
> glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an
> elevator.

What?  The Aliens flew that ship there?  I didn't know that.
Who/what was the huge creature with the chest blown out from the
first movie.  It seemed clear to me (in the first movie) that the
aliens killed the crew members on that ship after it had landed (or
something similar, since it never is officially stated) and just set
up the eggs for long term storage.

Remember the 'blue mist' from the first movie?  Who created that?
It seems like reasonably high technology to me.

One of the grunts screams that they're just stupid monsters. In the
book, Ripley puts it nicely: if they're so stupid, why did they
choose the one place in the colony where the marines couldn't use
their weapons for fear of blowing everything up?  Yes, they're
intelligent.  The scene where Ripley threatens the eggs and 'Mom'
pulls back made me sure of that.  The elevator seemed a bit stupid
to me.  I would have enjoyed it more if she had run up the
stairwell.

One doesn't know what they would have been doing when all of the
eggs were hatched and they had a real community.  It seems to me
that at the start they would be more concerned with getting a
population than with inventing technology.  Besides, the colonists
gave them all sorts of toys to play with.

Now the real problem I have is embryos.  It was said that in the
first book, Ripley finds Dallas with a bug growing in his chest and
she burns him out of kindness.  I'm glad they cut that scene,
because it would make Aliens completely off the wall.  If a lone
alien could inplant an embryo, then there is no need for the
facehuggers after they get one victim.  And there would be no reason
for the Queen to be laying eggs.

One small point about the movie vs.  the book is that in the book
Ripley makes it clear she wants to nuke the original alien
spacecraft as well.  The movie leaves this open -- there may very
well be a whole nest of facehugger eggs in that ship even as Ripley
heads home.  Fortunately they will be smart enough to be more
careful next time, won't they?

Ben Bishop
bishop@athena.mit.edu
p.s. I like the description of the mother ship they arive in as a
giant flying swiss army knife.  It does.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86  14:02:58 EDT
From: Flash%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Rick Flashman)
Subject: ALIENS

The way I figure it:

In the first movie, we were shown TWO alien races inside the ship.
The race that BUILT the ship left the WARNING beacon and was killed
off by the little critters. Remember that scene where they enter the
ship and find a dead alien, about 20 feet long, who has had his
stomach blown out by one of the little critters? In the first movie,
one was given the impression that the aliens were a local problem
discovered by the crew of the first ship (the alien ship) and
overcome by it.
   Then in the second movie they specified (Ripley did) that the
aliens where NOT local. I was annoyed at this, where did she get
this information?  She didn't know. All she knew is they found a
ship, she didn't EVEN see the ship. The Aliens are semi-intelligent,
but not enough to have a technological society. In the first movie
you see how the alien does NOT kill the cat, since it does not
consider it a threat. (A sign of SOME intelligence). In the second
movie we get more of this. Especially with the last alien in the
elevator. Though I was annoyed by the alien's ability to FIND them.
In the first movie they always walked into the alien. In the second,
the aliens knew exactly where they were, in this mile big facility.
Like if they had radar or something. BTW, if the aliens skin is
dense enough to sustain molucular acid for blood, wouldn't it be
kinda of tough to bullets too? Another lacking point. In the first
movie, the meal they had looked like food-from-the-future. While in
the second movie we end up looking at T.V. dinners.
   Another point, in the first movie the little alien (the one that
attaches to the face) jumped out and used the acid_blood to dissolve
right through the space suit. So, what I want to know, HOW did they
manage to keep those other aliens captured inside those containers?
Wouldn't they just use their acid to get out?
  BTW, the trip did NOT take years. In the first movie they said
that they where "six months" away from earth. Now, that was a SLOW
cargo vessel. Imagine the speed of a FAST military ship? I would
give it one month.
  Just because communications gave out didn't mean everybody was
campured at once. Give it that they where first attacked by aliens
and communications went dead. Took about a month to leave earth, and
month of travel. That gives the colonist 2 months. So, as you saw in
the film, they built a little fort, and were captured ONE by ONE.
The first people that had the aliens on their faces, they were able
to remove TWO, trying to figure out how to control this thing. But
in the end, I believe that lady colonist we saw alive, was one of
the last fighters, probably captured right before the marines got
there.

Rick
(Flash%UMASS.BITNET)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 86 0850-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 206

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86  8:03:37 GMT
From: Keith Dale <kdale@bbncc-eur.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens

takget!brucec@ciap.rutgers.edu writes:
> 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
> ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
> they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only
> glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an
> elevator.

I don't think that the Aliens developed the space ship or piloted
it.  As I remember, there was a fossilized corpse found found by
Dallas and Co. that had had it's chest blown out - it was
half-reclining in what could've been a pilot's chair - but it
definitely wasn't a "bug".  It seems to me that the Aliens were an
extremely efficient and nasty form of parasite - no less, and
probably not much more.

As far as the other plot/story problems go, I'm pretty much in
agreement with them, although they didn't interfere with my
appreciation of the book (haven't seen the movie *yet*).  The time
problem IS a problem: I figure that Acheron was about 20 months from
Earth (the Nostromo crew was awakened 10 months from home and "about
halfway there").  Bear in mind, though, that they were on a
freighter/processing plant and not in a Colonial Marines warship...

KMD

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1986 11:16 CST
From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock)
Subject: ALIENS

    ALIENS.  What a great film.  I just saw it last night, and I'm
just about ready to go and do so again (well, maybe I'll wait a
couple of weeks).  The story was great, the special effects were
super, and acting was superb (boy, is that ever a cliched line!!).
Just a few comments though...

From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>Other than this parallelism, I see two major problems with the
>film.  The first is that they is no sense of futurity in the
>characters.  They are all basicly 20th-Century types transplanted
>into the future.  The second major problem is a lack of time sense.
>One can infer that Ripley's debriefing provided information for the
>Company to send the colonists out looking for the alien derelict,
>which ended up as the obvious downfall of the colony, and thus,
>that it was months after Ripley's return that the colony goes
>south.  However, this is not clear in the film, and it seems as if
>there is a remarkable coincidence that the colony (which has been
>on the planet for quite some time) should have a pest-control
>problem just as Ripley reaches Earth.

    I don't understand why a film dealing with the future of mankind
is supposed to present us any differently than we are now!  The only
"20th Century types" which I saw were the Company board and the
marines.  The company was more concerned about profits than about
the people, which is something that I do not believe will ever
change.  Mankind will always have those who are more concerned for
themselves then for the rest of the race.
    The Marines were just what I expected as well.  They were crude,
tough and talked constantly about there "conquests" (better known as
"dates" to the rest of the human race!).  I've never seen a soldier
who didn't act like this, especially when going forth into action.

From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen)
>The one thing I had a problem with was the fact that the Company
>undertook a 20+ year project without a full survey of the planet.
>Surely even a half-hearted survey would reveal the alien spaceship?

    I believe it!  Remember, surveys cost money and that cuts into
the profits.  After all, what kind of intelligence can you expect
from an organization that gives someone like Burke (the company man)
the authority to screw around with other people's lives.

>There is another thing I have a gripe with.  It was actually
>filmed, and later cut, that Ripley found Burke coccooned when she
>went looking for the kid.  Ripley gave Burke a grenade so he could
>kill himself, rather than dying of chestbursting.  What pisses me
>off is that the exact same scene was removed from the original
>alien.  Captain Dallas was found alive, but infected with one or
>more alien spawn, Ripley (or whoever found him) torched him out of
>compassion.  Would have been a great scene, but they cut it out.

    I was disapointed too.  I had myself convinced that she would
find Burke down there too, but rather than help him she would just
leave him hanging (Sorry if that seems a little to cruel to anyone,
just my opinion of what the worm deserves!).  I am glad they cut the
scene with Dallas in the original movie though.  It would have
ruined the intensity of the movie, by revealing Ripley's toughness
too early!

From: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Hamachi)
>Well, now they've really gone and done it!  Sigourney (Alien)
>Weaver reappears as (believe it or not) Ripley, sole survivor of
>Alien (the original).  James (the Terminator) Cameron directs yet
>another classy action shoot-em-up.  Michael (the Terminator) Biehn
>seems stuck in a rut as the soldier of the future who is cool and
>capable, who but ultimately gets dragged around by tougher and more
>capable women.

    I never thought of that before.  I love Biehn's roles in both
the Terminator and in Aliens, he plays the soldier so well.  But he
always ends up with getting his ass hauled to safety (well, almost
to safety in the Terminator) by the woman he's supposed to be
protecting!  Could give a guy an insecurity complex before long!

From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>All in all, the movie was very consistent and logical.  There were
>no bouts of complete stupidity.  No gaping logical holes (that I
>saw) although there did seem to be a bit too much gravity on the
>ship, but they never pretended to be in free fall.  I also thought
>the traditional open-the-airlock bit was stretching it a bit, but
>within limits.  You decide for yourself.

    I though the airlock was the only tense moment in the whole
show, because it was the one place where they could have gotten rid
of Ripley, as she had already ensured the safety of Newt, Hicks and
Bishop!  She could have gone out with the Queen, satisfied to have
finally destroyed the Aliens that had been haunting her!

>My commendations go to the point-lady, Hernandez (or however they
>spelled it).  She was tough.  "Hey, Hernandez, you ever been
>mistaken for a man?"  "No, have you?"

    Her name was Vasquez, and I agree, she was tough and can be on
my team any time!

>is the reference to a "bug hunt" straight from Starship Troopers or
>what?

    Probably!  There were a lot of similarities between the two
stories.

From: tekgen!brucec@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Cheney)
>I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.
>1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must
>have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and
>crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means
>it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there,
>some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the
>"gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of
>days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this
>tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me
>they were "saving" these folks for YEARS.

    Hmm, first I doubt that it took that long to get there.
Possibly a couple or three months at most.  It's simply cheaper and
easier on everyone if they are asleep for that time, rather than
being awake, eating the food, breathing the air, and losing their
"edge" by being constantly on each others nerves.
    Alternatively, the trip could take only a couple of days in real
time and much longer in subjective time on board the ship (perhaps a
reversal of Einstein's formulas in the Faster-than-light drive used
on the ship?  Anybody who's read the book have any ideas?).
    Besides, Cpl. Hicks said that help would arrive in 17 days once
they were discovered to be overdue!  Therefore, the trip must have
been pretty short (no more than a week anyway!).

>2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything
>about creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
>research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples
>in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS,
>see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT
>TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ??
>C'mon....

    What full blown research??  The critters in the lab likely came
off of the research team sent to check out the alien spacecraft.
Six or eight of them were probably infected, the rest of the team
brought them home, and then the original members of the Alien tribe
(?!?) were born in the medlab or some other place on the base.
Remember, they read the one chart which indicated that one of the
colonists had died when the "critter" was removed from his face
surgically!

>3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
>for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
>Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
>a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

    Remember, these marines are COMPANY Marines, and just follow
orders and operational procedures set down by the Board of Directors
(and we all know how swift they are!).  Also, they had a rookie
Liutenant in charge (only two combat drops!), who was confident that
there wouldn't be anything down there that they couldn't handle
(WRONG!!!).

>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

    Who ever said that the Aliens were the pilots and original
owners of downed space ship?  I always assumed that they infested
the crew of that ship just the same as they did the crew of the
Nostromo.  In all likelyhood, they were intelligent, but only in the
most basic sense, such as any predator is more intelligent than its
prey, as demonstrated by the fact that it eats well!
    The derelict spacecraft was possibly from some other galaxy, and
its crew was destroyed by the critters several millenia ago.  After
that, it drifted into our galaxy and eventually crash-landed on the
planet under auto-pilot.  The eggs sat and waited for the next
several thousand years until the crew of the Nostromo tripped over
it and released the horror all over again.  (Remember the one
skeleton found on the derelict in Alien, with the bones of it's rib
cage 'exploded' from the inside.  Obviously an infected member of
the original crew, whoever they were!)

John Bertram
Geis (Syzygy Darklock) <GEISJBJ@UREGINA1>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 16:47:05 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (Aliens)

Reference the reviews in SF-L #198. Well, let me jump into the
solidified resin feet-first... Having taken vacation time yesterday
to go see Aliens in a matinee showing (greater love for cheap
thrills has no man...), some of this is pretty fresh in my mind (and
maybe chest...:-):

First off, I tend to agree pretty much with everything Jerry
Boyajian said.  I did enjoy the film a great deal, myself, so any
nits I pick should be taken in that light. The lack of "futurity"
does have a negative effect, and I saw that mostly in two aspects:

1. The costuming, especially that of the Company bigwigs. They
seemed to wear ordinary 20th-century shirts, ties, and suits, with
the only adjustment being that the collars stood up, sort of halfway
like Nehru jackets. That introduced a grating sense of
dischronicity, to coin a word. After all, isn't this supposed to be
at least a couple hundred years in the future? (I don't recall just
what the date was; I think it showed up on one of the computer
displays, either in this film or in Alien.) Consider how men's
fashions have changed in the 200 years since 1786. Why wouldn't they
continue to change at least that radically?

2. The weaponry of the Marines. I'm a weapons buff, and I would put
the "M-41 Pulse Rifle" at just about the same technical level as the
mid-60's US Army work on the SPIW (Special Purpose Individual
Weapon).  [I think I'm recalling the film's nomenclature correctly
there.] The one Marine had a standard current short-barrel,
pistol-gripped shotgun.  The grenades were pretty obviously
12-gauge-shell-sized, to make the F-X work of fabricating the
hardware easier and cheaper -- the close-up shots proved that it was
just a regular 12-gauge tube magazine being loaded. The flame
throwers were nice, but could have used a line of dialog or so to
justify how they could spew many minutes of flame with no external
tank or reloading (just some pseudo-science gorp -- I don't expect
them to really make it work!). Anyway, I would have preferred some
more advanced weaponry, given the chronology.

(One side note -- I seem to recall that the Lieutenant said that the
guns fired "10 mm" projectiles -- am I right in that? It should have
been a much smaller number, then, to be consistent. The digital
display of the rifle magazine capacity (nice touch there!) showed a
quantity of "95" when fully loaded; if those were 10mm cartridges
you could never have gotten 95 of them into a magazine that size
[about the same size as a 30-rd 5.56 mm M-16 clip]. He should have
said "2 mm" or so -- the historical trend is always toward smaller
calibers.)

As for plot holes, I agree, upon later reflection, that they were
there, but you tend to not notice them in the scenery and effects,
which I thought were quite well done. Bruce Cheney was right on the
money with catching the time-related and plotting holes he did. I'd
counter his #4, on alien technology, with the impression I had from
Alien that the crashed ship was one of another race entirely, who
were caused to crash by an infestation of their ship by the "aliens"
(shall we say "bugs"?  let's!). So the bugs need have no technology
of their own -- they would just be parasites with minimal
intelligence.

Maybe we can explain the time problems by making up some rationale
-- how about this? The "cold sleep" that Ripley, Burke, and the
Marines were in was not to let them endure a long time of sub-light
travel, but instead to protect them from the arbitrarily-dangerous
effects of being up and awake during the short period of time the
military ship took to travel at some super-light speed using some
sort of special drive. (This may be like Niven's postulate of people
not being able to look into the "nothingness" around you when in FTL
travel.) That would give a reason for them to have been frozen for a
quick trip, and avoid the years-vs-weeks situations Bruce outlined.
I don't recall a trip duration being stated anywhere. (Maybe this is
another one of those places where the book must be consulted,
instead of the movie's internal reality.)  Anyway, this would let
the Nostromo, being an ordinary freighter, use cold sleep as a
method of preserving the crew during long slow trips, while the
military use could be different. For what its worth...

One other bit that didn't come across just right was the ability of
the "artificial person", Bishop, to survive his injuries. He was
obviously organic (we saw enough of his insides!) -- why would he be
able to survive the same loss of organs that would kill a human
instantly? It was nice that he did, but that wasn't well-enough
justified. If he had been mechanical inside, then fine -- he gets
torn up, but the real him would be in a brain that just shuts down
and then returns upon power-up. Was the nature of the synthetics
explored more fully in the book?

One last point -- how does a loss of coolant make a fusion reactor
blow up? Shut down, yes. Blow up? It does not compute... And what
was doing all that exploding and flame-bursting at the end inside
the reactor building before the final detonation? I could see some
collateral damage from the effects of all the destruction Ripley was
wreaking upon sublevel 03, but it seemed a bit hokey to have all
those balls of fire.

Well, that's enough for now. Remember, no matter what nits I picked,
I still liked it. Go see it!

Will

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 0845-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 207

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Heinlein & Celtic Myths,
                  Films - Films in Video Stores,
                  Television - Star Trek (6 msgs) &
                          Max Headroom (3 msgs),
                  Miscellaneous - Newsletter Submissions Request &
                          Worldcon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 00:00:26 GMT
From: ritisis!eer2762@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Reed)
Subject: Re: The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls (One opinion)

chrise@ihlpl.UUCP (Chris Edmonds) writes:

>...  This is in specific response to someone who posted a request a
>couple of weeks ago for advice appropriate for making a decision as
>to whether to buy TCWWTW in hardcover.

A recent check with B.Dalton indicated that the paperback is due
this summer or early fall (they didn't say, but it sounded like the
title was on their order sheets, or something).

I'm gonna wait.

Ed Reed - Rochester Institute of Technology
phone:    (716) 334-3006
Delphi:   EERTEST
Usenet:   ...rochester!ritcv!ritisis!eer2762

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 06:54:15 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Celtic myth references

I thought the Malbonigion (sp) was Welsh myths.  The Irish myths are
supposed to be closer to the original celtic mythos (at least, that's
what I heard.  Does anyone know for certain?).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 23-Jul-1986 0823
From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (CELESTE)
Subject: request for movies in video stores

Response to request for possible SF movies to get in video.  Only
the really bad ones are indicated.  Most titles are fairly recent or
well enough known for no explanation, besides I didn't want to
embarass myself by admitting to which ones I haven't seen. Can
anyone add to this list?

Movies that I have found at local video stores :

2001 Space Oddessy
2010
Buckaroo Bonzai
Back To The Future
Barbarella      (bad but classic)
Cocoon
Deathrace 2000  (bad but classic)
Dragonslayer
Dune            (The 'dark light' doesn't hurt your eyes nearly
                as much as in the theatre)
Empire Strikes Back
Farenheit 451
Galaxina        (If you like Playboy centerfolds ... otherwise bad)
Mad Max
Metropolis
Road Warrior
Terminator
The Thing
Time After Time
Time Bandits
Time Machine    (Probably seen on TV 20 times)
Wizards
Warriors of the Wasteland (don't bother, spanish-italian bad)
Xtro            (haven't seen, don't plan to)
???             (Movie with Slayers, Widow of the Web, Prince and
                 Princess whose wedding is stopped in the middle of
                 ceremony)

Movies that I have NOT found at local video stores but may be in
yours:

Battle Beyond the Stars
BeastMaster
Dark Crystal
Ghostbusters
Highlander
Ice Pirates
LadyHawke
Last Starfighter
Lifeforce
Mad Max beyond Thunderdome
NeverEnding Story
Return of the Jedi
Runaway
Scanners
Star Wars
Star Trek I,II,III
Sorceress
Sword and the Sorcerer
Warriors of the Wind

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 16:57:03 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes:
>NEFF@su-sierra.arpa writes:
>>There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major
>>characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters
>>doing entire shows as guests.
>
>Won't these studio morons LEARN?!?!  The idea of recasting the crew
>came up for ST I (The Motion Sickness).  The fannish outrage caused
>them to reconsider.  This was what got us Decker, etc. as they
>tried to phase in a replacement crew.  We all know how far THAT
>got.  A good portion of Trek's continuing popularity is the
>identification with the crew members.  Expect this one to sink
>fast.

Now now now.  It's actually not a bad idea.  The original actors a)
are getting old, and b) want to do other things.  Time for some new
blood.  I don't think there is anything particularly *sacred* about
the original cast, even if none of the originals ever appear in the
series, it will probably be better than most of the science fiction
on the tube lately.  (Of which there is not much, I'm afraid.)

The best idea along those lines that I heard was for one (or more)
of the former crew members get his/her own command.  Sulu was
suggested.  I think this was only idle speculation at a SF con, so
don't take it as a hot rumor.  Say, Admiral Kirk appears once in
awhile as either fleet admiral or in some offical position back
earthside, and the story centers around some new characters with
some originals like Sulu and maybe Chekov and Uhura to hold things
together.  (Durned shame they killed off Kirk's son.)

Personally, I have a fantasy about the Enterprise being used as a
base ship, with a smaller explorer ship based out of the big E's
hanger.  (Bigger than a shuttlecraft, maybe the size of the "Dark
Star".)  Then you arrange things to make more sense militarily:
There is a real exploratory party which the shows revolve around,
with much less action taking place on the bridge, and get rid of
that notion of the Captain always getting in the thick of things.
Star Trek the original series was pretty good (oops, I'll get flamed
for that) but it centered mostly around only 3 characters.  These
days, the style is to have many sub-plots involving many characters
and some continuity from one show to the next.  This plotting style
would fit in quite well with a new Star Trek series.

Hmmm, starting to sound like 'Hill Street Space Cadets'.  :-)

Finally, even if the new series is not as good as the first (hard to
believe) I don't expect it to sink fast.  As I mentioned above, it'd
still be better than most of what's on the tube.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 08:44:40 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

Learn what?  STTM failed as a movie because even the brilliant
original cast couldn't do anything with lousy dialogue and over
reliance on special effects. STII had both David Marcus and Saavik
(as many major new characters as STTM had), but a good script served
the entire cast well! Everybody loved it, simply because it was a
better movie, not just the casting.  STII allowed the characters the
CHEMISTRY which made the series so good.

I applaud the decision to go with new characters.  There have been a
panoply of good possibilities from the various Star Trek novels. The
problem with using the original cast is that the movies have burned
too many bridges.  A single starship with an admiral, three
captains, and the rest of the crew of commander rank just doesn't
make sense.  It's not believable.  Even the premise of Enterprise as
a training ship made the presence of the original cast just barely
believable, given their present high rank.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 09:10 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek
Cc: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)

Come on, Bob, the original ST actors can't live forever!  But I
think ST can.  What ST NEEDS is a new series about the adventures of
the Enterprise (or another starship) with new characters.  The
mistake they almost made for STI was in keeping the same characters,
but recasting (someone suggested Robert Redford for Mr. Spock).
What I'd like to see is some carry over from the series: George
Takei has been pushing for a Captain Sulu series, and I think that
would be perfect.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 13:35:12 EDT
From: Jim Aspnes <asp@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

Star Trek was made fifteen years ago.  The movies have already had
to strain a lot of credibility just to get the old crew back
together -- how long do you think they can keep this up?  I would
welcome a new cast, and I hope that the "studio morons" realize that
they can't keep sacrificing the logic and continuity of Star Trek to
escape the reactionary whining of some of its more vocal fans before
the show dies completely.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 06:30:50 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

Roddenberry was talking a while back about the possibility of a new
series.  He said that it was too difficult to do an hour-long series
every week (half of a major motion picture a week).  he would have
liked to see Star Trek go the route that a number of shows were
trying at the time--the once a month, 90 minute format (Ack.  I got
to thinking after I typed this.  Maybe that was what David Gerrold
suggested in _The World of Star Trek_.  If so, apologies).  My
brother and I were thinking that this would be pretty nifty--they
could do a couple of Roddenberry shows (say, Star Trek and Gary
Seven), D. C. Fontanna's show (she had an idea for a show about a
scout craft with a small crew), and maybe something else, just to be
open minded.

Just to bring the idea up to date, maybe it would be possible to do
some interleaved Star Treks.  Have a Star Trek show which follows
two separate ships (and crews) around the galaxy.  Show one crew one
week, the other the next.  You could share a lot of the sets, which
could give the effect of a higher budget.  Scheduling the use of the
sets would be a pain, though.  Either one crew would be filming
interiors while the other was doing exteriors, or you would need a
couple of sound stages.  Could be that this is one of those ideas
that looks good as long as you don't look too carefully.

If Star Trek does come back, they ought to make sure they get a
science editor.  There were a lot of stupid errors made in the
original show.  The science editor should also be responsible for
consistency (remember "The Lights of Zetar", where Scotty says he
doesn't believe in ESP?  Thats a little hard to justify, considering
Spock, "The Menagerie", "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Charlie X",
"Plato's Stepchildren", etc.  Actually, ESP was so common on the
show, Scotty may as well have stated that he didn't believe in
computers or warp engines).  It shouldn't be too hard to find
someone halfway competent (like me :-).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 10:11:40 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
To: Bob Halloran <unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

Actually, Decker, etc. didn't survive Star Trek: The Motion Picture
in human form.  It was not until ST II that new crewmen were
introduced and allowed to survive.  And Saavik was a good
character...  But now we have the Kirk and Spock Show, without any
boldly going where no man has gone before (grammar?).  Leonard Nimoy
is directing his second movie and there are rumors of William
Shatner directing the next.  I say that the actors shouldn't be
allowed to control the show and the success of the show doesn't have
to depend on the presence of the original actors.  That is [this is
very important] if there is still some TALENT involved in making the
show.  The fans can identify with new crew members, and the show can
continue indefinitely.  This one won't sink fast unless it's lousy.

>For those interested in expressing their distaste through
>correspondence: 20th Century Fox Publicity, P O Box 900, Beverly
>Hills CA 90213 (from trying to encourage the Buckaroo Banzai
>sequel).

For those interested in expressing their strong approval through
correspondence: the above address.

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 10:48:07 PDT
From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Max Headroom is human

   I can't give citation, but the Max Headroom character really is
played by a human with video post-processing.  It takes four hours
to get the poor guy into the appliances: if his career had to take
off, I'm sure he wishes it could have done so more conveniently!

   My own opinion is that the Max Headroom introductory pilot is
some of the best SF made for TV ever done.  Only "The Lathe of
Heaven" can compare.  Best thing since "Blade Runner".  I do wonder
if the producer/director team will do any more.  The show was so
good I sort of wonder what else those folks have done (besides,
possibly, music videos), and why I've never heard of them before.

Mike O'Brien
obrien@rand-unix.arpa
{sdcrdcf,decvax}!randvax!obrien

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 20:12:43 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Good old Max again

From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
> Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a
> crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means?

Nope, he's not a "cross-hatch generator", that's just what the
owners of Big Time TV were billed for and didn't know what it was
either, shortly before MMMMMax arrived on the scene.

I don't know what a crosshatch generator is either, but I'll lay
odds on it being future-speak, sf jargon.

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 18:55:33 GMT
From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

There was a lot of neat graphics in the feature length Max Headroom
the character himself however, was not one of them.  As for Tony de
Whatever and Andre and Wally Bee they are extremely good graphics
but I hardly think someone would invest in all those teracycles (and
I really mean LARGE quantities of cycles) just to produce a rather
interesting video jock

Glad to see that British tv is holding its own in the land of the
free I don't live in the uk, but we get the tv ok

Simon Kenyon
The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND
simon@einode.UUCP
+353-1-716255

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 86 09:46 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek Newsletter

I put out a monthly Star Trek newsletter, the Propagator, and am
very interested in getting email contributions.  Any short article,
review, puzzle, filk or most anything of interest to ST fans (this
can include most any media SF such as Doctor Who or reviews of
latest movies) would be most welcome.  Humor is encouraged, but not
required.  Especially appreciated would be anything in Macintosh
(BinHexed) format, such as MacPaint cartoons.  Contributors receive
copies.  (Hardcopy, US mailed).

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 23 Jul 86 08:03:21-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: WORLDCON
To: usc-oberon!bishop@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

The following is an extract from SRI-NIC public file
<ZELLICH>CONS.TXT:

August 28-September 1, 1986 (Georgia)

   CONFEDERATION (44th World Science Fiction Convention). Hilton and
   Marriott hotels, Atlanta, GA (Hilton $59 + $10/person, Marriott
   $76).  GoH: Ray Bradbury; FGoH: Terry Carr; TM: Bob Shaw.  The SF
   universe's annual get-together, with professionals and readers
   from all over the world in attendance.  Talks, panels, films,
   fancy dress competition, the works.  Members get to nominate and
   vote for the Hugo awards and the John W.  Campbell Award for Best
   New Writer, and also may vote for the 1988 and/or 1989 Worldcon
   sites by paying separate site-selection voting fees.  Memb:
   Supporting $25 until 15 Jul 86, can be converted to attending as
   late as the convention for the difference between $25 and the
   then-current Attending rate; Attending $30 thru 3 Sep 84, $35
   thru 31 Dec 84, $45 thru 15 Sep 85, $55 thru 31 Mar 86; $65 thru
   15 Jul 86, then higher at the door; 1986 site selection voters
   who were also Pre-Supporting Members of Atlanta in '86 receive
   Attending Membership at no extra cost; kids 2 & under free, 3-11
   $15 accompanied by an adult member.  Dealers: $50 deposit per
   table (limit 4, final table cost TBA), booths $250 (limit 1,
   deposit $100); write the con "Attn: Steve Francis" for info.
   Info: ConFederation, Suite 1986, 3277 Roswell Road, Atlanta, GA
   30305.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 208

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Lewis &
                         Erotic SF & Footfall & 
                         Celtic Myths (2 msgs),
                 Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) & 
                         Max Headroom
                 Miscellaneous - Battle Language

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 July 1986, 09:31:47 EDT
From: "BRENT T. HAILPERN"  <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Has this been done? (very mild spoiler)

> Each chapter of the novel is titled and represented by one of the
> Tarot trumps, and the major themes of that chapter have to do with
> the meaning of the card. It will focus on an interpretation of the
> Trump sequence as stages of existence in a path to "enlightenment"
> but will also use some of the more common interpretations of the
> cards.

Piers Anthony used this format in his Tarot trilogy.  He used an
expanded set of major arcana so that each chapter in the three books
could carry one card as a title, with tie-in to the story.  His
Cluster series (started out as a trilogy and now has 5 (?) books)
also refers to tarot a great deal.  In fact there is one vision in
the Tarot series (towards the end of the last book) about the future
of Tarot that involves a alien Tarot user.  That alien Tarot user is
the protagonist of the third (I think) Cluster book and he has the
mirror image vision.

There has been a lot of discussion about Anthony in the digest.  My
2 cents is that there are a some gems in his works ("On a Pale
Horse", the first three Xanth stories, parts of "Macroscope", and
the Split Infinity series).  But you cannot assume that just because
you find his name on a book, it will be good.  Unfortunately this
same statement is becoming true about my original SF idols such as
Heinlein and Asimov.

Of course, this is all my own opinion...

Brent Hailpern
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
BITnet:  bth at yktvmh
ARPAnet: bth@ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 03:44:58 GMT
From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

> One gains a somewhat more sympathetic view of Anthony from the
> notes

A matter of opinion, I think.  Several people seem to have
completely given up on him after reading those same notes.  I know
they made me feel LESS sympathetic -- back when I thought he was
doing the best he could I was more willing to forgive him.

> I also think that a uniformly negative view of Anthony's writing
> is unjustified.  He has a tendency to beat stories into the ground
> with sequel after mind-deadening sequel; but the original stories
> are often quite good.

I agree here.  Also, some of his early complete series were pretty
good.  I think highly of the Battle Circle novels, and of Orn,
Omnivore and Ox (Though especially Orn.  Hmmmm.).  And I liked the
first Cluster trilogy.  The great splash book that made all the
excitement was Macroscope, which I liked a lot at the time (haven't
read recently, not sure how it would stand up for me.  I remember it
as possibly more topical in theme than most of the others).

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967
Telephone: (612) 721-8800
USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S
        Mpls, MN 55406

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 86 16:37:15 GMT
From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: "Great" literature

This discussion is good place to throw in a general recommendation:

I've just finished C. S. Lewis's AN EXPERIMENT IN CRITICISM.  As
with most of Lewis's work, I don't agree with everything, but he
writes very well, and, as they say, gives one to think.

I'll leave the summeries to someone else.  For now, I just want to
mention this book as an excellent discussion of (among other things)
how one reads, and how one determines a "great" book, or one with
lasting merit.

skzb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1986 12:11 EDT
From: Marty Walsh  <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Erotic SF and _Dream Games_

     Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites.  I
have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add to
as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...)

     I had hoped to begin the list with one of my favorites, but as
I mentioned in my original posting, my copy of it had been lent out
and as such I couldn't remember the authors name.  Well, much to my
surprise, my copy appeared on my desk this morning!  I can now
provide the authors name and also, much to my embarrassment, the
correct title of the book!  It's _DREAM GAMES_, not _Mind Games_ as
I had originally posted!!  (I was kinda close!)  The author is Karl
Hansen, (At least I was correct about him being the author of _WAR
GAMES_!).

     By the way, someone pointed out to me that the subject of
sf-erotica was covered in the digest about a year ago.
Unfortunatly, I do not have access to last years digest.  Could
someone that does please check and send me a list from that
discussion?

Thanks
Marty Walsh

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 22:14:14 GMT
From: starfire!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (mild spoiler)

>    I have noticed that a lot of people speak of "identifying with
> a character" or similar phrases.
>
>    Why is that necessary to enjoy the work?  Is it not possible to
> take pleasure from the author's command of the language, of the
> inventive

I would think that a good book ought to allow itself to be enjoyed
in several ways.  The more the better.  One ought to write well
enough to allow someone to enjoy the prose, and one ought to plot
well, and one's characters should be strong enough to be interesting
in and of themselves.  Where's the contradiction?  There are people
who need to be able to identify with a character to enjoy the book,
and I don't see what's wrong with that.  Others want enough depth to
give their minds something to play with.  It's the writer's job to
provide as much of all of these as possible.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 12:21:35 GMT
From: bunkerb!mary@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Re: Celtic myth references

chelsea@dartvax.UUCP (Karen Christenson) writes:
>cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes:
>>Do you have any more information about these myths (titles, books
>>I can find them in, rumors to pointers to references...)?
>
>There's the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Celtic myths.
>There's also a series of five juveniles (one won the Newberry) by
>Susan Cooper which have several references to Celtic myths.

Evangaline Walton has written a set of four books based on the
Mabinogion.  I don't recall the titles exactly but I think they are:
Prince of Annwn, The Song of Rhiannon, The Children of Llyr, and The
Island of the Mighty.

Lloyd Alexander has also used elements of Celtic mythology in his
Prydain series, the last of which won the Newberry award.

I highly recommend both sets of books.

Mary Shurtleff
...decvax!bunker!bunkerb!mary
....ittatc!bunker!bunkerb!mary

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 22:19:48 GMT
From: abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU (+Mark &)
Subject: Re: Celtic myth references

daver@sci.UUCP writes:
>I thought the Malbonigion (sp) was Welsh myths.  The Irish myths
>are supposed to be closer to the original celtic mythos (at least,
>that's what I heard.  Does anyone know for certain?).

   Yes, the Irish tales and legends are probably "truer" to their
Celtic origins if only because they were probably recorded earlier.
All the Irish and Welsh tales were written down in Christian times
so all of course have some influence from the Christian scribes.
The Irish tales, however, having been transcribed earlier, are
assumed to be closer to their origins.  Nevertheless, the Mabinogi
and associated tales are truly "Celtic".  They may have a film of
Christianity superimposed on them but the original Celtic elements
and their mythic qualities are quite intact.
   If you're interested in reading Irish and Welsh tales and about
them I would recommend:
   _The Mabinogi_, translated by Patrick Ford.  Ford's translation
is usually held to be the best.  Several years ago I took a class
where we translated portions of the Mabinogi (from the Medieval
Welsh) every day as our homework.  Ford's translation follows the
Welsh exactingly, maintains its flavor, and yet is readable. This
also includes several other folktales which are usually grouped with
the Mabinogi.  One of these, Culwch and Olwen, is a charming
Arthurian tale.  Keep in mind that Arthur is a British, ie Celtic,
hero.  The tales most of us know came into English through the Welsh
immigrants who founded Brittany.  Their folklore about Arthur became
the later French Medieval Romances.
   Evangeline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogi is also very good.
She includes much background and cultural information which makes
the entire thing much more comprehensible.  The original was for an
audience which already knew the tales and, obviously, knew the
culture.  Using other sources, Walton, has added what is needed to
make the stories flow.  These are definitely worth reading on their
own merit, independent of any interest you might have in things
Celtic.
   About the Irish tales I know less.  Many are available in Penguin
translations and those that I have read are quite fun.  I have no
idea if the translations are any good.  For scholarly information
and general background on the Irish tales try _Gods and Heroes of
the Ancient Celts_ by Marie-Louise Sjostedt (exact title and
spelling of the author's name may be off, I don't have it here with
me.)  For a fictionalized retelling of the _Tain Bo Cualnge_ (The
Cattle Raid of Cualnge, again the spelling may be off) try _Tain_,
by Gregory Frost, recently in paperback.  It's a lot of fun and
maintains the feel of the translations I've read for what that's
worth.

Mark Abbott
ucbdean@abbott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 08:41:01 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Star Trek characters

In DC's STAR TREK series, the editors have been running letters on
the desirablility of having new blood in Trek. One of the letters
said,"Yes, TREK can survive without new blood. But should it?"
Sooner or later, friends, we are going to lose Doohan, Shatner,
Nimoy, or one of the others, and if we don't have new people to
bring in, sooner or later we won't have any cast left!  Several of
the novels have done this...When Spock and Scotty disappeared in
BLACK FIRE, much of the section there dealt with how the stars
reacted to their replacements. THE FINAL REFLECTION had a story that
was set without recogniz- able people, except for brief cameos of
Spock at 7 and McCoy in diapers. I think that Star Trek can survive,
if the quality is maintained as in TFR.  I must admit, though, they
would have to do an excellennt job to get me into NewTrekdom. Well,
that's all for now. THE ADVENTURE CONTINUES!

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 11:35:49 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
To: Dave Bloom <dave%andromeda.red.rutgers.edu@Dewey.UDEL.EDU>
Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Star Trek : TMP

>I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies was
>because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new
>characters central to the plot. [...]

The new characters were central to the plot of STTMP, and there may
have been problems with them, but...  STTMP was used as a vehicle
for getting the *old* characters reestablished in their *old* roles.
The "new" characters were "killed off" by the end of the movie.  ST
II was where things started changing...  Spock dies, one new
crewmember (Saavik) and one potential continuing character (David)
are established, and so on (into ST III).  ST II completely ignored
what was accomplished in ST:TMP.  Now we have a destroyed Enterprise
and an absurd reincarnation of Spock, and are about to make a trip
back to 1986 (gee!).  Is that what we really want Star Trek to be?

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 09:03 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek new characters
To: Frank Hollander <hollande@DEWEY.UDEL.EDU>
Cc: Dave Bloom <dave%andromeda.red.rutgers.edu@DEWEY.UDEL.EDU>

I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST
characters being the center of "ST."  To me, ST is so much more than
the sum of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc.  (If any one thing is the
center, it's the Enterprise, which is why I felt so cheated when
they destroyed it, but that's another story.  And the Enterprise,
STILL isn't the center, just closer to it.)  It's the universe it's
set in, the optimism, the vehicle for good space opera.  I think
that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH, and only
make the series stronger.  I WANT to see a new Star Trek with the
same setting, background, the same "to boldly go" theme, but with
new people.  Let's have another strong Captain, another fascinating
alien, some new personality types.  Saavik was a great addition, as
far as she went.  We need more new people like her.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 12:36:13 GMT
From: riccb!rjnoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Roger J. Noe)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I]

Dave Bloom writes:
> I *hated* STTMP for a number of reasons, but one of the biggies
> was because it was used as a vehicle for the introduction of new
> characters central to the plot. After all those years I wanted see
> Kirk & Crew ...
>
> I think the characters, regardless of their age, still make the
> old magic happen.... That's why TWOK was so good.

Which is precisely why I've never heard anyone say that the Special
Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad movie or
that they didn't like it.  The version of STTMP that reached
theaters back in December, 1979 was a very poor edit of an otherwise
good movie.  They cut out very much of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy
interaction and washed out their characterizations in the process.
If you haven't seen the Special Longer Edition, then you haven't
seen the real "Star Trek: The Motion Picture".

Roger Noe
ihnp4!riccb!rjnoe

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 10:02:38 GMT
From: well!ltf@caip.rutgers.edu (Lance T Franklin)
Subject: Re: Good old Max again

From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
>Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a
>crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means?

I imagine it's referring to the patterns generated behind Max's
head.  However I think the box was also called a frame buffer, which
makes more sense than calling it a crosshatch generator, which is a
TV Repairman-type alignment instrument (if I'm not mistaken) which
requires about 15 dollars worth of circuitry to make.

By the way, I saw an interview with the actor who plays Max Headroom
on the All-night news (NightWatch) and he definitely spilled the
beans, admitting that he spends about 4 hours in makeup for a Max
Headroom taping session.  So that's it, friends...it's NOT
computer-generated!

Lance
{ptsfa,hplabs,dual,lll-crg,glacier}!well.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 21:12:47 GMT
From: usc-oberon!cochran@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Cochran)
Subject: Re: Battle Language -- DUNE invention?

> One topic which has been explored by a number of authors is the
> idea of the Klingons having a Battle Language which is used
> during combat.

It was published much later (1971) but let us not forget Cletus
Graeme's twenty-volume work on tactics and strategical
considerations in Gordon R.  Dickson's "Tactics of Mistake" part of
which covers the reorganization of the command structure and
implements a both a language and a philosophy for a battle team.

Steve Cochran
USC-ISG

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #209
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Jul 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 209

Today's Topics:

                Books - Biggle & McCollum & Palmer &
                        Myth Stories & The Keep,
                Films - Dr. Phibes & Films on Video Tape &
                        Books into Films (2 msgs),
                Television - Max Headroom & Star Trek,
                Miscellaneous - Has this Been Done? &
                        Meeting at Worldcon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 17:15:01 edt
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Lloyd Biggle Jr.

I would like to remind sf-lovers of an almost forgotten writer:
Lloyd Biggle Jr. I just picked up his "Silence is Deadly" from my
friendly neighborhood library; I am halfway through it, and
fascinated by how he took one premise (a planet full of deaf
creatures) and toughtfully extrapolated the consequences for the
whole society.

For me, this is what separates the real SF writer from the hack who
just takes a TV-grade soap opera and adds SF/fantasy props in order
to sell.  Lloyd Biggle also has a good vocabulary, and keeps the
plot running: in this case, the Department of Uncertified Worlds has
lost ten agents in a previously untroubled backward planet, with
medieval technology and no spoken language.

As far as I know, Lloyd Biggle wrote at least two other books. I'm
sorry I can't be precise about the titles, but I read them years ago
(and in a translated edition, to boot). One was called something
like "The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets" (an agent is allowed to
introduce one, and strictly one, technological innovation to bring
about progress in a feudal world). The other, on a much hazier
remembrance, is "The War of Ghosts" (??), where you have an account
of battles with an human-like race, whose soldiers can teleport
themselves.

I would appreciate corrections on this. Anyway, I recomend the
author to you.  Dig his books out of the library. Suggest a new
printing to your friend at a publishing house. It's much better than
the average of what they're putting in the bookstores.

Tony    (abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu)
P.S. Just looked at the cover flap (anyone ever reads those?). Is
says that three other books by LBj use the same protagonist: "This
Darkening Universe", "Watchers of the Dark" and "All the Colors of
Darkness". This last one may be what I called "War of the Ghosts"
(translated title, you know :-). The blurb also mentions "numerous
short stories" (known collections, anyone?).  "Silence" is (c) 1977,
and is based on a 1957 short-story printed in "If".

------------------------------

From: <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: McCollum and sequels

> Does anyone know whether Michael McCollum is planning a sequel to
> his "Life Probe" series (LIFE PROBE and PROCYON'S PROMISE)?

McCollum is a frustrating author to like (at least for me) because
he writes great books which beg for sequels, and then goes off and
writes another great book, completely unrelated, which also begs for
a sequel, etc.

Before the "Life Probe" books, he wrote several related stories
which were unified into the book "A Greater Infinity"...I've been
waiting for a sequel to this one for years.  And the new book,
"Antares Dawn", has *got* to have a sequel -- to say more would be a
spoiler.

Maybe McCollum will be at Worldcon and I can ask him about this.
Speaking of Worldcon, are there any plans for an SFL party there?

Marty Moore
mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 21:51:16 cdt
From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
Subject: David R. Palmer's _Emergence_

The person who recommended _Emergence_ to me said it was written in
a new style he thought I would really enjoy.  Clipped sentences.
Straight forward.  First person.  Mutant adolescent heroine.
Bright.  No nonsense.  One word.  Boring.

Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 03:47:57 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs.ARPA (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re mythological stories (May, Myers)

Does anyone else feel the distaste I do for stories which (through
the artifice of time travel or something equally unlikely) use
modern characters to 'explain' a myth?  I always get the sense that
the author is telling a shaggy dog story of the very shaggiest kind.
A variation on this plot grabs a mythological character and brings
them to modern times, where they give the 'real story' behind the
myth.  This utterly destroys the charm of a myth.  Robert
Silverberg, whose work I often admire, has been playing around with
Gilgamesh recently, for example featuring him as a character in a
story for the 'Writers (sp?) in Hell' series.  I couldn't finish the
story and didn't feel I was missing anything.  I couldn't hear so
much as a whisper of the Sumerian Gilgamesh...  The original, even
in translation, puts imitations to shame.

I far prefer stories which leave the magic of a myth intact, and
especially those which create new myths.  The master of this is of
course R A Lafferty.  (And no, I won't tell you what R A stands
for!)  Check out 'Magazine Section' in the latest YEAR'S BEST SF;
these myths are so real that I expect to see them featured in Sunday
supplements any week now, or perhaps as footnote in J H Brunvand's
next opus about modern folklore.  I was a bit hesitant to try Robert
Holdstock's MYTHAGO WOOD but when I finally got around to reading it
I discovered that it doesn't 'explain' myths but does something far
more sophisticated -- read the book and find out, it's lots of fun.

Not brave enough for Silverlock (Goldilocks? never mind) or even
Pliocene exiles (does Old Irish have a word for Pliocene?),

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 20:57:42 cdt
From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
Subject: _Highlander_ and _The_Keep_

Has anyone out there noticed a resemblence in the premise of the
movie _Highlander_ to that of the movie and book _The_Keep_?  I
speak of the eternal enemies, good and evil, doomed to follow each
other through eternity.  I saw the tail end of the movie on HBO and
was intrigued enough to pick up a used copy of the book.  I found it
in the horror section, but after reading it I thought it could have
as easily been classed as science fiction or fantasy.

              IS THIS WHERE I PUT THE SPOILER WARNING
              BECAUSE I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT A BOOK?

During WWII the Nazis move into an ancient stronghold guarding a
mountain pass in some eastern European country, ignoring the dire
warnings of the villagers.  The soldiers explore the Keep and
disturb something.  Soon the soldiers begin to die horribly.  The
commander does some research and sends for the only people who might
know what is going on, a Jewish scholar and his daughter (who,
incidentally have no idea what is going on).  They move into the
Keep and the scholar contacts the "something", an ancient entity who
has been imprisoned in the Keep.  He heals the scholar of a
crippling disease in return for the scholar's aid in breaking free
of the Keep.  Enter the mysterious stranger, who has reluctantly
crossed the continent during a war in response to the entity's
awakening.  He and the scholar's daughter interact.  He confronts
the entity.  Eons ago, before Atlantis sank, a highly advanced
civilization existed.  Some of it was good, some of it not so good.
The good and the not so good fought it out, almost destroying the
earth and forming the basis for most of the mythology of the less
developed co-habitants of earth (our ancestors).  The mysterious
stranger (the good) and the entity (the not so good) fought each
other in various guises for thousands of years.  Finally the
mysterious stranger defeated the entity some time around the reign
of Vlad the Impaler (guess who he really was).  Afraid of what would
happen if he destroyed the entity, the mysterious stranger
imprisoned his ancient enemy in the Keep and took off.  Now, the
entity is loose and the final battle must be fought.  (I sound like
a cover blurb!)

Actually I enjoyed the book and have watched the movie several
times.  This theme is familiar to fantasy readers, and had the Nazis
been evil conquerors out of the West, and the scholar and his
daughter been a a wizard and his daughter, and the mysterious
stranger rode a horse instead of a motor cycle, we would have had a
fantasy novel instead of a horror story.

Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 18:18:52 GMT
From: masscomp!mcguest@caip.rutgers.edu (net'ing from inside)
Subject: cut -d 1-14,39-

Has anyone ever seen a movie called 'Dr. Phibes' ?  What was it
about?  I only saw < 3 minutes of it and am especially interested in
what the organ playing was all about...

Bill Colic

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 00:23:13 GMT
From: bnrmtv!perkins@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: request for movies in video stores

From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (CELESTE)
> Response to request for possible SF movies to get in video.

All of these are old enough to be on video, some in the public
domain:

Andromeda Strain
Day of the Triffids
The Day the Earth Stood Still
Fantastic Voyage
Forbidden Planet
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (both versions)
THX 1138

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1986 08:18-PDT
Subject: Books into movies list
From: WILBUR@OFFICE-2.ARPA

"I, Martha Adams" by Pauline Glen Winslow.  America has become
complacent & surrenders to the Russians after they destroy certain
military bases.  One woman fights back.  This book has good
ingredients for a movie - pyrotechnics, politics, bad guys beating
upon good guys, suspense, and sex.  Oh, yes, let us not forget a
strong female lead.

Faye (Wilbur@Office-2)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 10:17:08 PDT
From: chuq@SUN.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: books into films

Nobody has mentioned the PERFECT book for a Hollywood SF special
effects bonanza.  I'd love to see them do Lord of Light by Zelazny.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1986 22:00 EDT
From: Brent C J Britton  <Brent%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Max Headroom Trivia...

The actor who played Edison Carter in "Max Headroom" is Matt Frewer.
Given that Max Headroom as we see him is actually sort of like the
"Great and Powerfull Oz" as initially seen by Dorothy and company,
does anyone know if Matt Frewer is in fact "the man behind the
curtain"?  It seems to me that he is, but I'm not completely sure.

Remember the little ditty about the "Crimson Permanent Assurance"
that appeared before Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" about the
accountants that attacked the Very Big Corporation of America?
Remember the last executive standing who threw down his papers, said
"Shit!", and jumped out the window?  That was Matt Frewer.

The thing into which Edison Carter crashed was one of those
automatic gates which are found at the exits to parking garages.  He
was being tracked by his controller (who was trying to keep the gate
open) and by Bryce (who was trying to close it).  Bryce, hacking
from his bathtub, won, and Edison crashed into the gate which read
"MAX HEADROOM 2.3m" (not 6 feet).  Later, when the Cross Hatch
Generator in which Edison had been enclosed turned up at "Big Time
Television" it displayed a picture of the garage gate, but the
people at Big Time figured it was a good estimate of Max's TV
ratings: Max Headroom, 2.3 million.

When Dave Letterman asked Max where he got the name Max Headroom,
Max said that he was driving down the road in his (swagger) limo,
and someone shouted "Hey, there's Max Headroom!" and it kinda stuck.

Brent Britton

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1986 08:54 EDT
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: New Star Trek

Being an old Star Trek affectionado, I find myself with some
lingering reservations about whether an attempt at reincarnation of
the series with new cast members will match up to the original.

However, there are precedents that would seem to indicate that this
is not only possible but very plausible... Take "Dr. Who..."  The
creators of Doc Who pulled a major coup with the idea of
"regeneration..." When one actor gets tired of playing the part, he
dies/regenerates and voila, we have a new doctor without much adieu.

With ST, there's no reason to get so fancy of course.  It is
certainly believable that our beloved Cap'n Kirk and company have
gone to the bone yards after a couple of decades of faithful
service, and a newer, younger crew has taken their place.

The thing I worry about is the removal of reference points... People
who have been exposed to "Classic Trek" (like Classic Coke) tend to
have an almost fanatical devotion to it.  The new series will almost
have to remove most of the reference points that would help all of
us older folks (coff) tie down the whole bit.  The ENTERPRISE is
long since obselete, replaced probably by the incredibly ugly
EXCELSIOR-class starship.  The interiors of the ships have totally
changed (going from simple and elegant to bulky and complex).  With
the original crew gone too, it may be hard to think of the new show
as STAR TREK.  Perhaps they should come up with a new and different
name?

Then again (returning to my original example of Doc Who), I started
watching Dr. Who during the Tom Baker series... when I found out
that he was going away, I began to ask "Can there be Dr. Who after
Tom Baker?"  As it turns out there was, and I learned to like Peter
Davison and Colin Baker in turn.  The difference here is of course
that many of the reference points in Dr. Who have been preserved
throughout the series, virtually intact.  If they can do that with
the new ST series, it may end up being quite watchable.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 03:11:53 GMT
From: unc!oliver@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Oliver)
Subject: Re: Has this been done?

The tarot motif has been done bunches and bunches.  Lets see..... I
think it was Piers Anthony who had a planet based on Tarot
hallucinations.  There is another recent novel called, I think, the
something of Pentacles which has each chapter related to a card.  I
frankly can't remember the author (it was Barbara something...) or
much of the plot -- I didn't finish the book.

There are two that do come to mind as being pretty good.  The first
is by Italo Calvino and is called The Castle of Crossed Destinies.
In this work, Calvino puts stories together from spreads.  He does a
pretty good job.  The copy I have is in paperback by Harcourt Brace
and Jovanovich and has Strength and the Queen of Swords of the
Visconti deck on the cover.  I don't go along with all of his
interpretations, but I doubt if any two cartomancers agree on
readings.

The second is by Charles Williams (of Inklings fame) called The
Greater Trumps.  This is in paperback by Wm. Eerdmans Co.  It is
tremendous if you like that darkish pre-WW II British fiction -- it
reminds me a little of Iris Murdoch's stuff.  In any case, I found
this book pretty powerful.

Bill Oliver

------------------------------

Date: 25 JUL 86 17:34-CDT
From: HIGGINS%FNALCDF.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: General Technics meeting at Confederation in Atlanta

                      GENERAL TECHNICS MEETING

The pseudo-annual meeting of General Technics, the organization for
science fiction fans with an interest in do-it-yourself technology,
will be held Friday morning, 29 August 1986, at (oof) 10 AM,
Constellation in Atlanta.  Check your program when you get to the
con to find the exact location.  Non-members are more than welcome.

We may confidently expect that discussion topics will include
bringing science and technology to your local convention, blimps,
the status of our fanzine *PyroTechnics*, the status of Apa-Tech,
our amateur press association, The Good Old Days, and miscellaneous
techietalk.

Sorry, kids, I tried to get a more convenient time, but the Worldcon
has limited space and time.  Let's meet, shoot the breeze for a
while, then maybe go out for lunch (brunch?). GT will certainly hold
a party some evening of the convention, too, so watch for
announcements.

Bill Higgins
HIGGINS@FNALB.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 1215-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #210
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 210

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 12:08:54 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Music from Aliens

'Course, you can harly call it stealing when James Horner re-uses
some fluorishes from STAR TREK II.  After all, he wrote the music
for that film, too.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 16:18:23 GMT
From: amdahl!jon@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes:

>Why doesn't Ripley load her guns before she leaves the landing craft?

   She was in a BIG hurry; a bit of time was saved by loading them
on the way down.

>Why doesn't she carry an extra clip or two for the gun?  How about
>a handgun?  She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the
>hand grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd
>warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous
>now that the plant was about to blow sky-high.

   But the damage had already been done.

Jon Leech
(...seismo!amdahl!jon || jon@csvax.caltech.edu)
UTS Products / Amdahl Corporation

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 19:46:29 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Music from Aliens

okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
> One thing that I hated was that James Horner STOLE music from many
> major sci-fi movies.  Did people notice stuff from 2001, Star
> Wars, ST:The Motion Sickness, and STII: The Wrath of the Children
> of the Corn?  And they didn't even credit the music!

Actually I was rather pleased to hear the Gayenne Ballet Suite
during the title and credit sequences (it was used in 2001 to convey
the idea of 18+ months of routine as Discovery journeyed to
Jupiter.) surely this must have been some form of tribute to the
all-time greatest of sf movies. (in fact the music was doctored very
slightly, possibly beyond the limits of straight "rearrangement").

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 21:35:16 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

> I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.

Well...maybe not.

> 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must
> have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and
> crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means
> it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there,
> some of the slimed colonists

The freezing might have had to be done for other reasons.  Also,
Ripley froze herself for a 6 week trip in _Alien_.  She says that
she will reach the frontier in 6 weeks and "with luck" will be
picked up.

> In Alien, the "gestation" period of the creature in a human body
> is a matter of days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures
> also

There was only one colonist that was definitely "alive".  She must
have been hiding out like Newt was and she was very recently
captured.

> 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything
> about creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
> research project going on the Alien biology. They even have
> samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for
> YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some

Maybe not YEARS, see above.

> time, WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the
> company ??

Obviously the colonists put up a big struggle (this was even stated
in the dialog). They built baracades and even killed several aliens.
They would be sure to be studying the enemy during the battle AND
this battle could have been going on for some time.  It may not have
been over for very long.

> 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
> for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
> Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
> a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.
>
> 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
> ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
> they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only
> glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an
> elevator.

In _Alien_ the space ship was INFESTED by the aliens.  It was yet
another alien life form that built and piloted the ship.  These guys
were BIG too. Remember the size of the dead gunner who had his chest
"exploded from the inside"?

{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes
Ken Zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 15:09:09 GMT
From: thome@rochester.ARPA (Mike Thome)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes:

>1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop.

As is made clear from Alien, it does NOT take years to get from
system to system - If you remember, the crew of the Nostromo (this
is after returning from the planet with the Alien) is very unhappy
when they figure out that it'll take MONTHS to get back to earth...
because they wasted so much fuel and sustained damage visiting the
planet.  Now - Aliens takes place 57 years in the future with an
undamaged _military_ ship with the latest equipment... sounds more
like the month or so implied in Aliens to me.

>2) PLOT SLIP-UP-The colonists haven't seen or heard anything about
>creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
>research project...

I've heard that the novelization is *explicit* about this point...
but the movie gives plenty of information, too...  When Burke (is
this his name - the Company guy along for the ride) hears Ripley's
story, he instructs the colonists to check out the alien space ship
(I think that some mention of the company weapons division is made
at this point too) - this is what gets Ripley so mad at him -
eventually leading to her and Newt getting locked in the lab with a
couple of stage 1 aliens.

>3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
>for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
>Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
>a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

Agreed - I was very suprised when it was revealed that the shuttle
was parked on the ground (with the door left open) after so much
care at the time of the first "battle drop" - touching down just
long enough to drop off the ground transport, then zipping away...
on the other hand, we all know how incompetant the guy in charge
was... BTW, replenishment of supplies is a round trip in any case,
unless you leave the transport on the ground.

>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

Two points:
   1) Although the pilot of the alien ship wasn't human, he/she/it
certainly wasn't one of "our" aliens - it didn't look anything like
any of the 5 kind of Alien forms we've seen, and it died because of
the gaping hole in it's chest - as pointed out in ALIENS, they don't
fight among themselves.
   2) even if they HAD been the owners of the ship, unless they had
some sort of racial memory, they wouldn't have any education at all
- let alone technology.

>There are others, but these seem the biggest to me. But don't get
>me wrong, it's a great movie.

I haven't seen any GAPING holes... only a few weak spots, like the
error in stragety above... What I find hard to believe is how much
these creatures grow in such a short time - the original alien grew
from the size of a chicken to larger than human in under 24 hours...
and the bulk of organic material produced by the creatures in Aliens
seems excessive - I suppose the explanation is human food supplies
and INorganic material (Aliens use some silicon, too). Anyway, I
sure enjoyed the movie(s), even more so, because they were
reasonably believable...

Mike
thome@rochester.arpa
...!allegra!rochester!thome

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 01:14:05 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

Sorry, I just can't resist any more.  Nitpickers ought to think
thrice before posting their net.nits.

srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes:
>Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS:
>What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in
>hostile territory?

Marines who intend to retreat quickly into the vehicle?  Marines
with an inexperienced commanding officer?

>Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days.  So why use
>cold sleep to make the trip?

Because the hyperspace is an unpleasant place and makes the humans
sick unless they are cold-slept.  This is an extremely common
limitation to write into a hyperspace.

>The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing
>craft so he had to circle it around.  But the landing craft was
>shown hovering.  Why not just hover off the platform?

Because the hover would put nearly as much effective mass on the
platform?  Depends on the drive mechanism.  Jets or rockets would
certainly stress the platform.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 10:27 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Aliens discussion & medium spoilers

First of all I would like to apologize to Vasquez for getting her
name wrong.  I called her Hernandez, which was way off base.  I'm
probably still spelling it wrong, but what else can I do?

In case you are wondering who Vasquez is, you should go and see the
movie Aliens.  She is one of the marines recruited to kick some
Alien butt.

The point of this letter is to discuss the logistics of the Alien
physiognomy and to come up with a feasible world view for this
creature in it's home environment.  If you have seen neither Alien
or Aliens, then you will probably be spoiled by some references that
I may cite herein.

The Alien is a creature of enormous tenacity.  It seems to be able
to live anywhere despite lack of "breathable" atmosphere, although
it seemed disturbed by one of the gases Ripley filled the cabin of
her escape vessel with in the first movie.  Does anyone know what
gas this was?  At worst it just made the creature mad though.  Not
even the cold vacuum of space stopped the creature, although a
decent dose of rocket fire did put it in it's place.  In Aliens they
used 10mm armor piercing explosive shells and grenades with a great
deal of success, but then we didn't really expect the Aliens to be
colony creatures with control over each individual cell (like John
Carpenter's Thing), did we?  When an Alien is killed, it is truly
dead, thank the Maker.

The Aliens are quickly growing creatures.  They are born from an egg
as a thing that resembles a hand with a tail.  It's organs are in
the "palm" and it attempts to clutch the face of any organism that
happens to be nearby. In a good environment, the grown Aliens cocoon
helpless creatures up within leaping range of the eggs (or place
eggs within range of webbed up creatures). This cocoon is made from
some sort of excreted resin.  We never really learn what excretes
the resin, although I think we can assume (if we take A.D. Foster's
novelization of Alien into account) that the full grown Alien is
capable of excreting this resin, although I wonder where he gets
enough food to produce a sufficient mass to hold a human sized
creature since he does not appear to eat his victims. At any rate,
it sends a piece of itself (another egg?  born again monsters?) into
the digestive tract of the host and then the hand creature dies.
The creature has effectively shed it's original skin and is growing
a new one inside the host body.  The host body is accordingly
famished and eats and eats, but we can be sure that he is not
getting any of the nourishment.  All of it goes to the creature
growing inside of him.  This creature grows increadibly quickly too.
Within a period of hours it can be ready to emerge, although it may
take longer in a more benign environment.  When it is ready to
emerge, it uses it's nasty sharp pointy teeth to chew it's way to
the outside world.  Given time, it probably devours most of the
yummy parts of the host, otherwise it runs, er, slithers like hell
for a nice hiding spot when it can complete phase two of the
transformation. This snake like creature that is born by a messy
version of a cesarean quickly grows into the adult Alien that we are
familiar with, ditching it's skin along the way much like a
terrestrial reptile.  Where it gets the food to account for the mass
of this next transformation is beyond me.  This transformation
places the creature in the human being size category and makes him
obnoxiously nasty.  In addition to the long sharp pointy teeth, the
creature also has long sharp pointy fingers, toes, and a tail.  We
may assume that this form is the stable form that the Aliens will
remain in until they die.  Some may be fertile, while some may be
sterile, in a manner similar to some terrestrial insects, because we
do learn that the Aliens operate in a matriarchal queen system.
Someone must impregnate the queen, and we must assume, from a lack
of contrary evidence, that the "normal" adult Aliens take this role.
After getting a look at the queen, I must say that I suspect her of
eating her mates.  It just seems to be something she would do.

Other random notes about Aliens; they have highly corrosive blood
(does something eat them?); they radiate no heat (invisible under
IR) despite having obvious heat radiating fins on their backs; they
have a large brain cavity where Lord-only-knows what is present.

The Aliens are also pretty smart.  They know how to find ways of
moving about undetected, and they know when to avoid contact.  They
are sneaky about hiding and they can operate simple machinery, like
sliding doors and elevators.  They seem to communicate although they
use no system of language like we do.  If anything, their language
is a system of screeches and hisses, but I doubt that that is how
they communicate.  Instead, I theorize that they are telepathic, or
even that the queen is telepathic and controlling all the regular
Aliens.  This would account for their ability to surround their prey
so easily and for their organized tactics.  Also, the queen seemed
to control her eggs and guards with but a glance.  In Aliens, the
creatures all avoid the Marines until they kill an emerging
hatchling, then the Aliens all come out to play.

This presents a summary of what we know about Aliens, if you have
anything to add, please do.  This is all designed to promote
speculation. I have not even gotten to a possible description of the
Alien's homeworld.  It would not be a nice place to be, I am quite
sure.  There has to be something there that the Alien's are afraid
of, otherwise why would they need that nasty protective blood, or
that mean disposition?  Perhaps they have clans, or hives, and fight
amongst themselves?  Ideas anyone?

Jon
pugh%ccv@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24-JUL-1986 13:41 EDT
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTMATH.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens: The New Beginning... :-)

In Classic Alien they explain that it will take the Nostromo ten
months to get home (towing the oil refinery!) through hyperspace.
(Hyperspace is from the book..)  Now, given that the Nostromo is a
cargo tug, and was hauling a small city, one could imagine a
military assult ship could get there a bit faster..  Especially
since we've had 57 YEARS to improve technology!

Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 1229-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #211
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 211

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 86 20:43:49 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al.

>>Thus, even if the Elves once knew where all these guys came from,
>>the individuals with the knowledge passed over the sea, or got hit
>>over the head with an Orc's club, and their knowledge wasn't
>>preserved.  And by the Third Age, the Elves weren't traveling much
>>any more, so they were unlikely to re-discover anything.

chris@maryland.UUCP writes:
>On the contrary, the knowledge was passed down in song and story.
>It is true that most of the High-elves were rather stationary then,
>though according to our own legends, my ancestors were still
>wandering about.  Who, you may wonder, were those?

Well, look at the Sylvan Elves in Laurelindorenan, then.  In the
Fellowship of the Ring, one of the Elves talks about the Grey Havens
as if they were a rumor, not fact.  If such basic facts as the
continued existence of Cirdan at the Havens can be lost to the rank
and file, it implies that lots of other information is getting lost,
too.  There are other references to lost lore in Tolkien's works --
lost knowledge from Beleriand and Hollin, lost knowledge caused by
the last witness passing over the sea. Songs are nice, but an
eyewitness is better.

>In your translations, it is said that the last Elves left Middle-
>earth in the Fourth Age.  This statement is quite clear, succint,
>unequivocal---and wrong.  Someone seems to have forgotten us again!
>There is one group of Elves seldom mentioned: the Avari.  Perhaps
>someday I shall tell our story.

That the Noldor didn't write about the Avari is regrettable, I
suppose, but then the Noldor always WERE self-absorbed.  But they're
the ones who wrote stuff down, so their story is the one that is
remembered.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 20:37:34 GMT
From: blade!jcn@caip.rutgers.edu (Julio Cesar Navas)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
>     First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the
> author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote.
> And then, Mr Milne (who seems to be an authority, with a lot of
> carefully thought out and well presented views on Middle Earth)
> goes and agrees with him.  NOW WAIT A MINUTE !!!!!!!!

   BRAVO !!!!!!!!  That's the spirit !!!!!!!  The author of a
fantasy world should have the last word about the events, places,
etc. therein.  In fact, the author would be the only person who
would have a complete knowledge of all the events, plottings,
characters, places, etc. in his land.  After all he thought it up!
Let's have an example: Sauron after Morgoth's downfall.  With
Morgoth Bauglir in chains and his armies scattered or destroyed,
Sauron, Melkor's second-in-command, comes to Eonwe, the leader of
the forces of Aman, and feigns repentance.  Eonwe tells him that he
cannot pardon Sauron because they are of the same order.  Therefore,
Sauron has to go to Aman to recieve his pardon directly from the
Valar.  This Sauron doesn't do and instead flees east and hides.
Tolkien hints (and specifically writes 'perhaps') that Sauron might
have truly repented from fear of the power of the Lords of the West,
but that Morgoth's bonds on his lieutenant were too strong and that
Sauron loathed the sentence of service that surely awaited him, and
so he turned back to evil.  Tolkien wrote nothing concrete (perhaps
this and that).  Therefore, his readers would never really know why
Sauron did what he did.  Tolkien, however, would know.  He is after
all the one who created the situation in the first place and so
would know the why 's and wherefore's for every character's actions.
The character Sauron is not wishy-washy; he has definite goals and
reasons for what he does. J.R.R.  Tolkien, as the creator/controller
of Sauron, would also know those reasons.
   Why didn't Tolkien include his reasons for Sauron's actions?  No
one knows why.  Off hand, however, good guesses at his reasons might
be:
    a. He couldn't simply blurt out the reasons in the middle of the
story for fear that it would kill the aura of mystery that the event
has. What's that ?!?!? What about an appendix like in UNFINISHED
TALES?  See b.
    b. The Silmarillion and its stories are written by elves in an
elvish perspective.  The elves would not, in any way, know the inner
workings of Sauron's mind and therefore could not record it.  This
seems to be the best guess at Tolkien's reasons.
        The sad part of all this is that Tolkien is dead and
therefore can't answer any questions we might have concerning Endor.
Christopher Tolkien would only be able to help so far and could not
possibly be expected to give the answer to a really deep question
about Middle-Earth.  After all, he also is relying on the writings
of his father and does not and will not know the inner workings of
his father's mind. Only J.R.R. would know what changes or additions
he was going to make to Middle-Earth.  What revisions did he have in
mind?  What plot twists was he going to incorporate?  Did he have
the city of Gondolin mapped out in his mind and just never had the
time to write it down?  Questions such as these will probably never
be answered except in theory.  That is the saddest part of all - and
one which will never be remedied.

Julio C. Navas

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 23:49:22 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Goldberry

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>Goldberry (and who might she be, hmmmm?) tells Frodo that for Tom
>to master all his land "would indeed be a burden".  If he were
>Iluvatar, he would not only be the land's master, but its creator,
>and mastery of it could scarcely be a burden.

Well, if Goldberry is ``the River-daughter'', and we take *that* at
face value, then either Osse or Uinen (or both; Ulmo is, however
unlikely or she'd be the Sea-daughter) has been playing around...

Brandon
ihnp4!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
(ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
Phone: +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 19:11:47 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Magic in the LOTR

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
>From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
>>I think that the relationship between capabilities and Intrinsic
>>Nature in the magic of Middle Earth shows up here. Since magic
>>flows from the soul, what can be done by any entity is determined
>>by its inner nature.
>
>I don't think that this view of magic can be justified on the basis
>of the LOTR.  I don't even think you can justify a notion of soul
>or of Intrinsic Nature.  This is not to say it's entirely wrong,
>but "soul" and "intrinsic nature" say too much.  Moreover, you
>can't, in my view, conclude anything from "magic flows from the
>soul" since this whole notion of soul, let alone magic flowing from
>it, is unfounded.  "Soul" is an ill-defined notion in any case, as
>is "inner nature".

   Except that the existence of an indestructable soul is quite well
established in the LotR mythos. It is in fact quite clear that all
thinking beings have some fundamental essence which continues to
exist even after the body is killed. In fact I would say that 'soul'
or 'spirit' in Tolkien mean essentially the same thing as 'inner
nature', that is they refer to the essence of what makes each person
an individual, the personality if you will. For evidence from within
the mythos, try looking at the meanings of the names of the tengwar,
or at the descriptions of what happens to Elves and Men after death.

>Here is another approach.  I already knew that Feanor was skillful,
>proud, and inventive; I knew he could create things that others
>could not, and that they probably wouldn't have though of in the
>first place.  How does it help my understanding to attribute these
>things to a soul or Intrinsic Nature?  That different people are
>capable of different things seems an entirely commonplace
>observation with no need for this theoretical apparatus.

   Actually I would say that this is just another way of saying the
same thing! The differing capabilities of different people is the
essence what I would call "inner nature". Why am I so much better
than many people at seeing certain thing? Because deep down inside
of me these things touch the very core of who I am as a person, and
so I pay more attention to them. This is not really all that
mystical, just a part of how people react to things.
   To put it differently, because of who he was Feanor was deeply
moved by certain matters and so was inspired to create things of
beauty and skill based on this inner vision or inspiration. Only
someone else who shared his inner feelings and interests would be
able to make the same things, but he was unique and noone else had
these aspects to who they were. Sauron(and Morgoth) were more
interested in power and dominion, and so saw all things from this
perspective. Thus Sauron was unable to make such things as the
palantiri and silmarilli because he could not see things the same
way as Feanor. Sauron, on the other hand could make a truly awesome
instrument of dominion like the One Ring, while Feanor would not
even be able to concieve of such a thing.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 86 19:22:32 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>I have difficulties with this.  Firstly, though the Silmarillion
>indicates that Valinor itself was not built for some time, I don't
>recall the Valar or the Maiar actually living in Middle Earth
>(excluding a couple of Valar who were virtually part of Middle
>Earth).  Secondly, though certain Maiar certainly liked to wander
>in it, living there would have been difficult with the continual
>havoc that Melkor wrought, trying to undo everything the other
>Valar did.

   Reread the opening chapters of The Silmarillion! The original
home of the Valar in Ea, during the time of the two Globes, was in
fact in the area later known as Middle Earth. It was only after
Morgoth showed his true colors and destroyed the Globes that Valinor
was built and the Valar moved out of Middle Earth(for the most
part).  Certainly remaining would have been difficult, but a Maia
who carefully remained apart from the conflicts between Morgoth and
the Valar might well succeed in remaining relatively untouched. Such
I believe was Bombadil, you might say he was a neutral!

>It would indeed.  Though to be evenhanded, one should also consider
>that "Fatherless" was actually part of the Elves' name for him, and
>may or may not have been accurate.

   It would also make him fatherless, the Ainur were primeval
spirits and had no parents! They were directly created.

>In fact, given the broad variety of Maiar in whose existence we can
>have confidence, the hypothesis that Bombadil was one seems
>perfectly reasonable to me.  I might even hazard a guess that
>Goldberry was also a Maia, originally serving the water Valar
>(whose name escapes me just now).

   Indeed, I think the case for Goldberry is even stronger than for
Bombadil. She is nowhere nearly as unusual as he is. My impression
from careful reading of the available texts is that she was the Maia
of the River Withywindle! What the Greeks would have called a Naiad.
And I think she still served the Valar.

>For myself, though, I prefer to have Bombadil unclassified (my
>preference, as opposed to what I only find reasonable). I find that
>tidying unexplained matters into conveniently available categories
>tends to deprive them of some of their richness.  Personally, I'd
>sooner have Bombadil marvellous and unexplained than "yet another
>Maia; we already know about those".  And (in a different way,
>obviously) I think the same could be said of Shelob.

   I will admit that Bombadil and Shelob are very unusual and
difficult to fully explain. Indeed it may be that some of the Ainur
who entered Ea were of a different sort, not either Maiar or Valar.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 14:37:14 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al.

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>>is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so
>>fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there.  Tom
>>Bombadil is another who falls into this category.  For that
>>matter, so do Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and
>>Radagast the Brown.
>
>   No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent*
>to Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron.

Yes, but the Istari are Maia, and Radagast was indeed unfaithful:

   Indeed, of all the Istari, only one remained faithful...  For
   Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and
   birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and
   spent his days among the wild creatures.
      Unfinished Tales, p. 390

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 00:53:53 GMT
From: context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of
the Maiar.  The Ainur were the only beings in all of Tolkien's
writing who were able to effect changes of bodily form.  A
particularly graphic example is Sauron's changes from man to wolf to
snake to vampire during and after his fight with Huon (in the Tale
of Beren and Luthien), but other examples are the Balrog in Moria
(creature of fire to creature of slime) and Saruman ("sometimes
appearing as an old man").  Melkor, too, changed shape, although
after destroying the Trees he chose to remain the Dark Lord.

I can't think of any other examples of either Men or Elves who were
able to discard their bodies without actually dying.

Beorn also reminds me of Tom Bombadil in the way he staked out a
personal territory over which he exhibits a great deal of mastery,
while remaining relatively uninterested in the world outside.  Both
are also particularly aware of the inner thoughts of their guests.

The remainder of the Beornings may be human, or a mixture of human
and Maia, as there is no direct evidence that they share Beorn's
shape-changing ability, but Beorn himself must be pure Maia.

Ron

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 09:13:33 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Glorfindel

Well, come to think of it, maybe that is the reason that he lived in
the wraith-world too...because it's his second (?) time around!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 86 17:32 EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #200

I'm surprised that Sarima couldn't translate "Ungoliant".  If
"Cirith Ungol" is "the Pass of the Spider", and "Iant Iaur" is "Old
Bridge", mightn't "Ungol-iant" be "Old Spider"?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 18:14:46 GMT
From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

>[arguments based on "no one else (we've seen) can change shape,
>so:] but Beorn himself must be pure Maia.

Nonsense.  Who ever said we know everything about Middle Earth?  He
could be something else that just doesn't happen to turn up any
where else, probably because of minimal contact with elves.

mark purtill            (201) 829-5127
Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com    435 south st 2H-307
Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill  morristown nj 07960

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 1247-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #212
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 212

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 06:45:20 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes:
> 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
> ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
> they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only
> glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an
> elevator.

a quibble.  these weren't the critters that were piloting the
original ship.  The original ship was flown by giants, who were
infested with these critters.

Umm.  The following is based on the first movie and the book of the
first movie.  I haven't seen the second yet.

Looks to me as if the Aliens were biological constructs, designed
for an interstellar war.  The enemy appears to have been some sort
of federation, composed of many beings of fairly different
biochemistries.  Stage 1 Alien (the form that popped out of the egg)
is designed to latch onto and analyze its victims body chemistry.
It then manufactures and inserts the Stage 2 Alien.  This lives
parasitically on the host until big enough, when it emerges.
Generally, it should finish eating the host, and turn into the Stage
3 Alien (in the first film, it fled the host and presumably holed up
in the pantry).  Stage 3 Alien goes around, implanting other Stage 2
Aliens and scaring cats (Stage 1 can be skipped--the analysis has
already been done).  Stage 2 can also turn into a Stage 3a (not
seen), which lays the eggs containing the Stage 1 Aliens.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 07:37:04 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: How I learned to stop worrying and love the ALIENS

All right you lot, what exactly is going on here?

It would seem that the standard formula for articles about "Aliens"
is to say "Wow, it was an excellent film, but...." and then proceed
to nit pick at every possible plot slip, scientific error or general
mistake that can possibly be found (and some that can't).  I saw the
film last night, was riveted to the screen throughout and left with
a distinct case of the shakes, and now I'm not going to say anything
nasty about it for these reasons:

a) it was an adventure film in which meticulous attention to detail
might have advanced its critical aclaim, but would certainly have
resulted in boring tying-up-of-loose-ends scenes.

b) it was made under the guidance of a completely different
production team to the original "Alien" and like all such sequels,
had inconsistencies.  Viewers, to my mind should have entered the
theatre with this in mind and not gripe about it afterwards. Take
for example 2010 and 2001, two very different films with a story
line in common, but both enjoyable in their own right. OK, so 2001
is an all time classic and 2010 more an adventure style sf yarn
(note I write "sf" and NOT "sci-fi", all you heathens out there),
but, viewed as an independent film, 2010 was still quite worth
seeing.

c) it never once tried to present itself as scientifically accurate,
and besides has anyone ever seen a truly scientifically accurate sf
film? Even 2001 has 2 mistakes at least (the drinking straw, and the
display in the Orion of the Space station docking bay that continues
to turn long after the 2 have matched rotation) and the scientific
consultancy associated with that was formidible.

d) I want one of those whole body Waldoes like as wot Ripley uses to
polish off the queen.

e) it was nice to see a murderous film where the ones getting
murdered fully deserved it (by which I mean, that if it were between
humans and aliens then I'd probably side with the humans, nasty lot
tho' they are) , and weren't just the baddies who happened to be on
the wrong end of the gun. It wasn't "Rambo meets Alien", if it were,
then the Alien would have to win for me to really enjoy it.

Pardon me for using 2001 twice as an example, but it is the best sf
movie ever made (anyone who thinks otherwise, I'll meet you in
net.duels just as soon as I persuade them to set it up).

One more point, PLEASE no one take me personally unless you really
want to,cos if you do I'll set my pet face-hugger on you.

Tim Abbott

P.S. A few have been making comments about the feministic nature of
the film.  Don't you think it would have been fun if Vasquez had
survived rather than Hicks (wasn't that his name). Personally, I
thought that she was the only one with a sufficiently well developed
character to make it, all the others bore something of the air of a
Star Trek redshirt. Then, of course, could she have delivered the
line "This doesn't mean that we're engaged or anything"?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 13:38 EDT
From: whit@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #202

>Since the Queen manages to survive liftoff and space long enough to
>hang on to the second shuttle and show up in the mother ship, there
>is the possibility that she could somehow survive the ejection from
>the mother ship into space to return (in Alien 3). Then, there is
>still always the cat...

Or Newt.  The final shot of her and Ripley in the hibernators seemed
a bit suspicious to me.  And although Ripley saved her from
impregnation when she was found slimed, who's to tell what happened
to Newt before Ripley found her.  Didn't someone suggest that the
impregnators worked pretty fast?

Cheers,
Dan Ts'o
Dept. Neurobiology
Rockefeller Univ.
1230 York Ave.
NY, NY 10021
212-570-7671
...cmcl2!rna!dan
rna!dan@cmcl2.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 86 11:36:09 PDT
From: Michael O'Brien <obrien%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: What Aliens really are

   I think it's been pretty well established that the Aliens didn't
build the crashed ship they were found in.  However, the deceased
pilot did resemble them somewhat.  My bet is that this was a troop
ship.  The Aliens are genetically engineered soldiers, a la "The
Dragon Masters".  It's a nifty idea: ship a bunch of eggs and one
pilot to the war zone, hatch 'em out, maybe train 'em a little
(whatever wouldn't fit into the genetic code), after the first batch
of face-huggers take care of some natives, and throw 'em out the
hatch.  Unfortunately, as that pilot discovered, it's hazardous
work.

   Once you've "won" the engagement, there's probably a plague or
something to get rid of the soldiers.  Note that once all the food's
gone, the Aliens just sort of go dormant and hang onto the walls,
rather than being curious or discovering fire or anything.  They
don't seem to have any normal survival motivations aside from wiping
out any other life form they encounter.

   Give the humans credit for actually surviving an encounter with
untrained, unarmed infants! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Jul 86 14:29:41-CDT
From: Pete Galvin <CC.GALVIN@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Aliens rebuttal

I think we're (you're) missing a point about technology: just
because a little lifeboat ship took 59 year to make the trip doesn't
mean the Marines couldn't make the trip in a few days.  My vote is
that they went to sleep because of acceleration (or some such) or
maybe to save resources.  About the screwup in the company: I
wouldn't be surprised if in 59 years the files had been lost (or
destroyed) concerning the first trip to the planet.

There are certainly some holes in the plot though, but fairly minor:
leaving the mother ship unoccupied, the marines only having some tin
plates for armor (if they could do the forklift, why not a suit made
the same way?), and the relative lack of firepower displayed.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 13:21:18 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens

>  Ah well, this is a tradition that's been going on since the
> silents.  It's just amazing that in movie life no matter how hard
> you kill something, it always comes back to eat somebody else.

of course, the problem with that is there's not much left for 'ol
Ripley to blow up. In the first movie she detonated a whole
spaceship to kill *ONE* little alien. In the second, she nukes a
fair portion of a planet, including an outrageously expensive
installation. I can tell that in ALIENS III she will destroy at
least the core systems, or maybe just one of the spiral arms...  :-)

"If thine ALIEN offends thee, blow it and everything else up..."

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 21:04:24 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens

Yeah, the aliens are parasites.  But you want an idea for a *really*
scary movie?

Humans meet the hosts aliens evolved in.  Remember: a truly
successful parasite doesn't kill its host; it would wind up with no
source of food.

Can you imagine the critter that can survive being infested with
aliens?

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 21:31:07 GMT
From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes:
>Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days.  So why use
>cold sleep to make the trip?

No answers to the rest of the questions in this submission, but
adding things up, it certainly looks like cold sleep is NOT used
because space travel times are particularly long.  According to the
book (I haven't yet seen the movie), the trip from earth to Acheron
takes three weeks (subjective time? relative to earth?)  Clearly,
this must be FTL travel (the book also notes that messages from
earth take a week to arrive, which indicates FTL communication).

Obviously, three weeks is not a long time to spend on board ship, so
people must be put into cold sleep for some reason other than to
reduce aging.  Perhaps it reduces life support requirements; perhaps
it's the only way to survive "jumps" (the technique for FTL travel).

Ripley was missing 57 years not because voyages normally take that
long but because a signalling device on her ship didn't work (maybe
because of the alien).  She ended up adrift with no beacon that
would let others find her.  When she was finally picked up, it was
by a salvage ship that was looking for metal in asteroids.
Naturally, the metal of her craft attracted their attention...but
that was sheer luck.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 15:27:27 GMT
From: ukecc!smith@caip.rutgers.edu (Jemearl Thomas Smith)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

O.k. here goes:

FIRST: The dropship was removed from the supposed area of battle.
   It's job was ONLY deposit the Marines to the combat area, and get
   out.  If you observed closely, you saw that the co-pilot was off
   doing something.  Or, they could've been letting off heat from
   the flight (comming through the atmosphere DOES create some heat,
   No?)

SECOND: Hicks stated that they would be reported missing in 17 days.
   The trip perhaps took longer, so there would be a need for
   hypersleep.

THIRD: The dropship left the platform because it was unstable.  As
   for hovering over it, if the platform gave way, then there would
   be nothing under it for the support jets to function upon. (in
   other words *BOOM*) In the book, Bishop states that it was eaiser
   to take the dropship down under platform, where the air was less
   turbulant.

FOURTH: First, we look at a Marine: BIG, HUSKY, MALE-TYPE PERSON.
   Now we look at Ripley: SMALL, NOT-SO-HUSKY, FEMALE-TYPE PERSON.
   The weapon she threw together was more than likely very heavy,
   and bulky.  So she didn't have the extra weight or area to store
   extra clips.  She only had enough room to store some markers.
        She knew the station was doomed to blow up anyway.  She knew
   she was going to the lair of the Aliens, Hell, I'd shoot, blow-up,
   and mangle everything in my path too.  To heck with safty.

FIFTH: Hicks was with her thoughout the entire movie.  Ripley killed
   the face-hugger that was going to impregnate Newt.  So, no need
   to scan anyone.

SIXTH: Bishop, was a unique "synthetic person" he usually made up
   his own mind.  (also, If Ash (robot 1st movie) was programmed
   with Asimov's laws, why did he try to ace Ripley?)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 09:43:03 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor

I'm not sure who wrote it but someone was questioning the small
explosions occuring during Ripley's foray into the nest.  I work at
a nuclear plant and may be able to shed some light.

     I know that there has been time for massive tech steps forward
but at this plant there are numerous Diesel Generators, tanks of
liquid Oxygen, hydrogen storage and other flammable materials.  This
could add up to alot of small explosions, say the flamer hit a
diesel storage tank, that would create a nice fireball, and most
plants that go completely out of control produce a large hydrogen
bubble and we all know the damage that did to Chernobyl(sp?).  One
*BIG* argument that I have with the movie that unless they
supposedly don't use the same fuel that is now used it is *NEXT*
*TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode as they had it.

 Now a melt down of a plant the size of the one in the movie would
do serious damage to the immediate area but there would be no
mushroom cloud.

I expect some interesting responses to this.

Ray

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 15:48:14 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and
many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this
group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to grow
into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a cute
li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the lines of
Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME FROM??? It's
enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101 puke ...

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 15:23:05 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

smith@ukecc.UUCP (Jemearl Thomas Smith) writes:

> THIRD: The dropship left the platform because it was unstable.  As
>   for hovering over it, if the platform gave way, then there would
>   be nothing under it for the support jets to function upon. (in
>   other words *BOOM*)

Wrong.  Newton's Third Law clearly states: "For every action, there
is an equal and opposite reaction."  If your theory were true, then
rockets would not be able to function in space ("Nothing to push
against, therefore no thrust").  As long as the hovering jets can
fire, then it will hover, even if they were in a vacuum.

Nice try.

Jeff Okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
..!ucbvax!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 14:26:09 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@bbn-labs-b.arpa>
Subject: RE: ALIENS  (Spoilers)

Guess I'll put my 2 cents worth in:

I also wondered why Ripley was loading her gun on the elevator, and
then realized she was doing it to save time--she only had ~15
minutes to rescue Newt and get away.

I thought the alien should have ripped Ripley's foot off, but it
looked to me as if she'd torn off Ripley's boot/shoe instead. I'm
not certain about this, even though I looked hard, because there was
only one brief distance shot that showed Ripley's foot after that.

I was glad to see Jones the cat return in a featured role.

The "ever been mistaken for a man" bit was good, but my own favorite
line was: "I may be artificial, but I'm not stupid."

And yes, I also think Hicks was probably "impregnated" by Bishop so
that 20th Century Vole can bring us ALIENS 3.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 1306-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #213
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Jul 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 213

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 18:45:49 GMT
From: tekig5!chrisa@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: ALIENS

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
> The viewer will leave the theater a bit out of breath, but not
>knowing much more about the nature of society in the future or the
>nature of the alien life form.  We learn less new about the alien
>life form in ALIENS than we learn in five minutes of the original
>film.

I disagree, I think this movie added considerably to my
understanding of the future society in both films.  For example, in
the first film The Company was potrayed as the villain but not much
detail was given to it's makeup.  In _Aliens_ however the character
of Burke gives a much better idea of just how The Company operates.
It's sort of a logical extension of current Yuppie attitudes into
the far future.

Also, information about the aliens was extended considerably what
with the addition of the mother alien.  It becomes obvious that the
aliens are a colony race very similar to termites, bees, and ants;
something that isn't so obvious from the first movie.

>     As a sequel, ALIENS has at least two problems.  As the title
>suggests, where there was one monster in ALIEN, this film has many.
>One would expect each one to be as bad as the monster in the first
>film.  No way.  The creature in the first film could have eaten for
>breakfast most of the monsters in the second film.  In specific,
>the creature in the first film was invulnerable to flame throwers,
>I think.  It seems to me that the new creatures of the same species
>are not.  There just is not enough time to make each creature as
>bad.

The problem is not that the aliens in _Aliens_ look too weak but
that the alien in _Alien_ was made to look too strong.  You must
remember that in the first movie the humans had no conception of the
power that the creature had, they were working from blind ignorance.
Also, the humans in _Alien_ were only intersteller traders, not
soldiers.  They didn't really have that much combat and strategic
experience, thus making the fight a lot tougher on them.

There are many other factors that also made the fight against the
one alien in _Alien_ much more difficult.  The crew of the Nostromo
had no where near the kind of firepower the soldiers in _Aliens_ did
(the flamethrowers in _Alien_ were hack jobs while the ones in
_Aliens_ were the *real* things).  Also, the fight against the
aliens in _Aliens_ took place on the surface of the planet while the
one in _Alien_ took place on board a ship in deep space.  Remember
that the chief problem the crew of the Nostromo had was that they
couldn't just blow the alien away since its acid blood would then
eat right through the hull of the ship.  Btw, as a defense
mechanism, I thought the acid blood was kind of silly when I first
saw it in _Alien_, but after witnessing the fights in _Aliens_ I
realized that it's basically equivalent to the stinging capabilities
of bees.  They both result in the death of the creature, but at
least they cause a lot of harm to their attackers in the aftermath.

>     Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters."  The
>film introduces a child character.  It is a serious mistake because
>scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to chivalry
>about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic characters
>like children.

I don't think your criticism is justified.  Newt was an essential
character to the story since she supplied the motivation for
Ripley's character.  Remember that in the first movie her main drive
was to just survive and get out even at the cost of blowing up the
Nostromo.  However, in _Aliens_, she gets a much strong motivation,
sort of a mothering instinct, which drives her to attack the aliens
directly instead of running away as she did in the first movie
(also, the use of the mother image is important in the context of
the final showdown between Ripley and the mother alien.  They were
both protecting their children.)

>     One final problem is the predictability of certain scenes.
>Relatively early in the film I was seeing scenes and saying to
>myself, "I bet there will be a scene in which such-and-such happens
>later."  At least twice I was right about important plot twists
>toward the end.

Yeah, I noticed that in a couple of places myself.  Especially in
the early scene with the loader.  But that's a minor quibble.

I'd rate both _Alien_ and _Aliens_ as +3 on a -4 to +4 scale, but
for different reasons.  _Alien_ was a superb horror flick while
_Aliens_, smartly, avoided over imatation of it's predecessor by
being more of an action adventure (with appropriate tips of the hat
to it's prequel in the occaisional horror scene (such as the first
trip into the hive)).

My mailbox is always willing to accept letters.

Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 18:22:14 GMT
From: bambi!steve@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Miller)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

>>Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of
>>bio-scan once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't
>>carrying an Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens).
>
> FIFTH: Hicks was with her thoughout the entire movie.  Ripley
> killed the face-hugger that was going to impregnate Newt.  So, no
> need to scan anyone.

As we say here on the net: No, no, no.  Hicks is alone the with
Bishop the whole time that Ripley is Rambo-izing the nest.  Also,
Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a knock-out shot.  Hicks might
not even know he was impregnated (raped?).  And let's not forget
about Jones the cat.  Maybe Ripley and Newt will return to an Earth
that's crawling with the things.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 18:38:10 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

> I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.

But they can be explained.

> 1) TIME - The radio communications from the colony stop. This must
> have happened when all the colonists got "slimed". So Ripley and
> crew hop in a ship and go into DEEP SLEEP to get there. This means
> it must take several YEARS to get there. But when they get there,
> some of the slimed colonists are still "alive." In Alien, the
> "gestation" period of the creature in a human body is a matter of
> days, maybe weeks. BUT NOT YEARS !! The creatures also have this
> tendency to impregnate any human on sight, so don't try to tell me
> they were "saving" these folks for YEARS.

It's possible that in the future deep sleep is standard for any
voyage over a week or so.  Why keep your crack troops cooped up
bored for that long?

> 2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything
> about creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
> research project going on the Alien biology. They even have
> samples in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for
> YEARS, see above). So they have been studying them for some time,
> WITHOUT TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company
> ?? C'mon....

Again, not years.  And obviously when Burke sent them out to check
out the report, they brought back a few and started studying them.
It's not unreasonable that a colony would have an advanced med
section.

> 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
> for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
> Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
> a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

Do you leave someone in your car when you park it at the train
station to take the train?  Remember, this is advanced technology.
Why should they leave someone in the spaceship?  Particularly since
they obviously can call down the other shuttle by radio.  It's just
the fact that the colony's equipment is damaged that causes them any
problem.

> 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
> ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
> they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only
> glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an
> elevator.

As many people have said, the "aliens" didn't pilot the ship;
another race did.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 10:28 PST
From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, David D
From: <zaphod%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Alien and Aliens

tekgen!brucec@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Cheney) writes:
>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

In the original Alien, when the Nostromo crew enters the derelict,
they come upon a 'skeleton' that seems to have been killed by an
alien bursting through it's chest.  Since it always seemed to me
that the aliens didn't reproduce in each other, I assumed that the
derelict landed on the planet, and encountered the aliens, which
were an indigenous life form (making 'Alien' a misnomer).

And if you've ever looked over the original story, it went like
this:

   Nostromo hears distress signal, lands to investigate.
   Enters derelict, comes across the skeleton.
   On the 'control panel' in front of the skeleton, they find
      a pyramid shape scratched into the metal (or whatever).
   Sure enough, with further investigation of the planet, they
      find the 'pyramid', and go investigate it.
   Lowering someone down into the pyramid, they discover that it has
      an internal atmosphere, so the helmet comes off.
   An egg opens, and, well you know what happens then.

Incidently, the pyramid scene was to have a shot of a painting
depicting the entire life cycle of the alien, done by H. R. Giger.
He always regretted that they cut this sequence (due to time --
nobody wants a 2.5 hour horror flick) since that painting was some
of his best work.

I noticed that some of the colony buildings in 'Aliens' looked
remarkably like the original artist's renderings of the pyramid...

Dave Brown
CSNET: zaphod%wwu.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 July 1986 11:03:51 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Aliens filksong

   Doug Alan, the moderator of Love-Hounds (a mailing list devoted
to the discussion of music, especially the music of Kate Bush), has
come up with a filksong which he gave me permission to pass along.
Its sung to the tune of "Cloud Busting" (a song on KB's latest
album, "Hounds of Love"). Here it is.....

From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Chestbursting

A reliable source of rumour says that Kate has just seen the hottest
SF thriller of the summer and likes it a lot.  Apparently it has
inspired her to write a new song, which will be released shortly as
a special between-album single.  A working version of the lyrics
have gotten out; here they are:

    CHESTBURSTING

    I still dream of Aliens.
    I wake up crying.
    You're making eggs
    But you're out of reach
    When your cocoon encases me

    You're like my tapeworm
    That grew in my bowels
    What made it special
    Made it dangerous
    So I flushed it and forget.

    Everytime it pains,
    You're here in my chest
    Like the tapeworm coming out
    Oh, I just know that something gross is going to happen
    And I don't know when
    But just thinking it could even make it happen.

    Under the reactor
    Wrapped up in this slime
    You could see them coming
    They looked too small
    In their big metal lander
    To be a threat to the mother Alien

    I flushed my tapeworm when it got too big
    I can't flush you down the toilet
    Oh God!  I can't forget!

    Your son's coming out (Ouch!)
    Your son's coming out (Agggh!)
    Your son's coming out (Aaaghargaglephfftargletoopgaaaaaaggggh!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 14:40 EDT
From: whit@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #206

>>3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
>>for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
>>Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
>>a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.
>
>Remember, these marines are COMPANY Marines, and just follow orders
>and operational procedures set down by the Board of Directors (and
>we all know how swift they are!).

I'm not so sure of this.  After the first big fight below the
reactor when it is decided that Hick is now in command, Ripley, I
think, makes it clear to Burke that this is a military operation and
that therefore Hick had the authority to order nuking the
installation.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 09:39:03 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

This was mentioned (I think) a littl while ago, but nobody seemed
to have noticed.

Now, something in the movie (I haven't seen it yet) may refute this,
but here goes anyway:

Maybe the Compnay KNEW what was going on, but refused to
(publically?) admit it. The android's programming in the orig. and a
few other things could easily lead us to this conclusion.

Comments?

Phone : (617) 937-0551
USMail: P.O.Box 8524, Lowell, Ma. 01853
Usenet: ...!{wanginst,masscomp,apollo}!ulowell!dobro

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 86 07:52:49 GMT
From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

>She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand
>grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd
>warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous
>now that the plant was about to blow sky-high.

The reason she warned about the "thermal converters" was that there
was a risk of starting a meltdown.  Vasquez brought her own bullets
and used them with the result that the meltdown started just as
Ripley warned.  Once the reaction was started, it hardly mattered
that Ripley fired off a few more rounds.

> If you observed closely, you saw that the co-pilot was off doing
> something.

Taking a leak I would imagine.  :^)

> SECOND: Hicks stated that they would be reported missing in 17
> days.  The trip perhaps took longer, so there would be a need for
> hypersleep.

No, they seemed to think they only had to hold out for 17 days.  I
believe, though, that 17 days was too long to stay awake.

In the Alien book, when the monster was roaming around loose, they
were faced with the problem that they only had a two-day air supply.
Even though they would be home in only two months, they still had to
go into sleep in order to make it.  They had two options: Use the
two days to hunt the thing down and arrive home with *no* air left;
or go into sleep and hope that the monster would be killed by vacuum
(when the ship was evacuated after they went to sleep) or hope that
it couldn't get through the glass booths (they had already seen what
it could do to someone's helmet).

> A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and
> many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this
> group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to
> grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a
> cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the
> lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME
> FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101
> puke ...

Well, in the Alien book, the monster had free run of the pantry for
about half a day before anybody found it.

Vasquez was GREAT!  I loved the line when they first got attacked by
the aliens and she realized that it was time to start shooting her
gun:
        "Alright, let's ROCK!"

ed falk, sun microsystems
falk@sun.com
sun!falk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 86 1322-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #214
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Jul 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 214

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 86 18:25:01 GMT
From: blade!jcn@caip.rutgers.edu (Julio Cesar Navas)
Subject: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast in Middle-Earth

>>is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so
>>fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there.  Tom
>>Bombadil is another who falls into this category.  For that
>>matter, so do Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and
>>Radagast the Brown.
>
>No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent* to
>Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron.

   Well, not exactly...

   Let's take it from the beginning ---- In the Second Age,
Morgoth's lieutenant, Sauron, comes to the west, helps the elves
make their rings, makes the One Ring to rule them all, trashes
Eregion and Eriador in wars with the elves, is stopped by Numenore,
taken prisoner by Ar-Pharazon, encompasses the downfall of Numenore,
and loses a war against the the Numenorean Faithful and the elves.
Unfortunately, the One Ring isn't unmade by Isildur so Sauron still
has another chance to come back and try again.  Now the Valar knew
this.  Therefore they decided to send five maia to help the free
peoples (i.e. - those not under Sauron's domination) in their
struggle against Sauron.  These maia were the Istari.  They were
Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown, and two
unknown blue wizards.  The two unknown wizards went east and never
returned.  Now the three remaining wizards travelled around the
lands of the west aiding people/elves, giving advice, etc..
   By the end of the Third Age, only Gandalf has carried out his
charge.  Only Gandalf has 'kept the Faith'.  Saruman had switched
sides and turned to evil (desiring to keep the One Ring for himself
and become the new Lord of Middle-Earth).  Radagast had become so
enamored of the birds and animals of Middle-Earth (esp. the birds)
that he forsook his duties and really didn't do much in the way of
helping the free peoples in any way.

NOTE: Only Gandalf returned to Aman !!!!  A sure sign that he had
carried out his duties faithfully and the others had not.

Therefore, to describe Saruman and Radagast as 'renegade maia who
had become so fascinated by Middle-Earth that they forsook their
duties to stay there' is entirely correct.
   Why did only Gandalf make it?  There's a fairly simple answer to
that.  The Istari were maiar who took on the forms of men to come to
Middle-Earth (by order of the Valar) to help the free peoples in
their struggles against Sauron.  Therefore, since they took on the
fleshy forms of men, they were susceptible to the frailties of man
(like greed, pride, avarice) and of the flesh.  Now Gandalf was
given Narya, the Ring of Fire.  It bolstered him by strengthening
his will and his resolve (listen to the words of Cirdan: use [the
ring] as the fire to rekindle men's hearts in a world that grows
cold......looks like it rekindled Gandalf's heart too - when he was
down and out).  Thusly strengthened, Gandalf was able to overcome
even the worst of barriers in his path - barriers that left the
other Istari befuddled and searching for an easy way around the
barriers (like Saruman and the One Ring --- he said to Gandalf that
with the One Ring they could give some order to the world and save
the world from Sauron, that they would be doing the same thing as
they were doing now but only in a different manner.)  Therefore only
Gandalf was able to 'make it' through to the end and complete his
charge.

Julio C. Navas

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 23:04:34 cdt
From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
Subject: Who or What Is Gandalf?

The origin of Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron is detailed in the
_Silmarillon_, as are the origins of all other creatures, even
Shelob and Tom Bombadill.

Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 19:43:18 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
>After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of
>the Maiar.  The Ainur were the only beings in all of Tolkien's
>writing who were able to effect changes of bodily form. [...]  I
>can't think of any other examples of either Men or Elves who were
>able to discard their bodies without actually dying.

Two examples:

   Luthien
   Elwing

While some of you may doubt that Luthien's shape change was real,
Elwing's definitely was.  She couldn't fly in her normal form, after
all.

>The remainder of the Beornings may be human, or a mixture of human
>and Maia, as there is no direct evidence that they share Beorn's
>shape-changing ability, but Beorn himself must be pure Maia.

Since we see shape-shifting ability transmitted up to two
generations removed from the Maia grandparent, I disagree. And
wasn't there a reference to Beorn's death at the council of Elrond?

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1986 09:44 EDT
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: LOTR

I feel that I must disagree with you on several counts.  While I
think it is obvious that Middle Earth is not a reality, it
nonetheless exists in more than one way.

Occasionally, a writer comes up with something that is bigger than
he is, and I think this is the case with Tolkien and LOTR.  It is
what I would personally strive for as a writer... to produce
something with such far-reaching appeal that it takes on a life of
its own.  And LOTR has done exactly that.

To reduce it to the level of "just another novel" is the real crime.
At the same time, I tend to regard Tolkien's other works, such as
the Silm., as authoritative references.  If there are some
discrepencies and/or inconsistencies amongst the various texts, I do
not feel that detracts from the overall effect. If you examine
similar texts dealing with our culture you will find much more
extensive discrepencies.

So I guess on that score I agree... Tolkien's reference works should
be regarded as the final word.  Where two or more references do not
synch or are ambiguous, then it is up to the individual to decide,
based on the preponderance of available evidence, which explanation
suits him/her best.

But Middle Earth *does* exist. And I believe that JRRT would be very
PLEASED if he knew of all the people in the world who put so much
time and effort into *making* it exist.  He provided the framework
for that world, and his readers provide the imagination and raw
substance that make it work.

Andy Robinson
University of Maine

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 23:12:04 GMT
From: cstvax!db@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry)
Subject: Tolkien's blue wizards

Does anyone have any references to the Blue Wizards in LOTR?  I
think they were the Istari/Maia (sp?) called Curunir & Olorin.  I
also think they went into the East of Middle Earth.

I'm designing a board wargame of the Lord of the Rings; I want to
include alternative monsters/objects/characters that the Fellowship
of the Ring could have met if they took a different route.  I have
some ideas (others welcome); I'd like to know more about the blue
Wizards to see if a meeting with one of them in Rhun would (have)
be(en) a possibility.

Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and
Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had
power with water (for want of better knowledge).

I'm sure some of you are aghast at this; please respond if I'm way
off the mark.

Dave Berry
CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh
...mcvax!ukc!cstvax!db

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 02:30:00 GMT
From: kagraves@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kenneth A Graves)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards

db@cstvax.UUCP (Dave Berry) writes:
>Does anyone have any references to the Blue Wizards in LOTR?  I
>think they were the Istari/Maia (sp?) called Curunir & Olorin.  I
>also think they went into the East of Middle Earth.

Close, but no cigar. Read "The Istari", an essay on wizards included
in the Unfinished Tales. Curunir(a follower of Aule)=Saruman,
Olorin(loyal to Varda and Manwe)=Gandalf. The Blue Wizards were
named Pallando and Alatar. They were followers of Orome. To quote
the master:

"I think they went as emmissaries to distant regions, East and
South....  What success they had I do no know; but I fear thay they
failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways...."
(Unfinished Tales, p.406)

I interpret this to mean that Tolkien's persona as translator of
ancient myths could find no further reference to the blue wizards.
I.e. no word of their task reached Gondor or Rivendell.

I guess the following: The Valar see that Middle Earth cannot be
home for the elves much longer. The Noldor and Teleri that remain
are leaving via the Grey Havens and other ports. The Avari, however,
have not (clearly?) heard the call of the sea, but are still
wandering Middle and Eastern Earth. Thus two followers of Orome,
Alatar and Pallando, are dispatched to attempt to find the remnants
of the Avari and extend the invitation of the Valar. Why followers
of Orome?  Because 1) he alone of the Valar knows the eastern lands,
and 2) he gave the initial invitation at Cuivienen and is still
interested in bringing the Avari to Aman. Did they succeed in this
mission? No marching of the Avari is recorded, but there are many
ways to the Sea that don't pass by Gondor.

>Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and
>Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had
>power with water (for want of better knowledge).

Water power would derive from Ulmo. Orome was primarily concerned
with hunting. What powers the blue wizards had I can't guess, but
water strikes me as unlikely.

Gee, isn't the fourth age fun? I wonder how the rest of the
non-human races are supposed to be supplanted by Man. We still have
Orcs, trolls, dwarves, hobbits, ents, and loads of etceteras to deal
with, even after we ship all of the elves West.

Kenneth Graves
kagraves@athena.MIT.EDU
kagraves@athena.ARPA
kagraves@athena.UUCP (I think)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 86 01:16:02 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Debating Tolkien's word

WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>    First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the
>author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote.
>And then, Mr Milne ... goes and agrees with him.  NOW WAIT JUST A
>MINUTE!!!!!!
>    . . . Therefore, it doesn't have an objective reality apart
>from what Mr Tolkien has presented us with.  I think that if I
>wrote a novel, or a series of novels, and someone thereafter
>refused to believe anything else I wrote about the world-setting of
>that/those novel(s), I would be furious!

I quite understand your consternation with the idea of choosing to
doubt (I was going to say "disbelieve", but that's too strong) parts
of what an author writes about his creation.  Let me give the
reasons that I have chosen to do so regarding Middle Earth, and you
can judge whether they seem valid.  In fact, I do take Tolkien as
the most final authority we will ever have, since nobody, even his
son, knows as much about it as he did.  However, I don't quite take
him as the absolute authority, and I'll say why not.

In cases where the point of view is indeed that the author created
the world he describes, I don't see how one can do otherwise than
take his writings as the absolute authority.  So, for instance, I
would take anything C.S. Lewis wrote about Narnia as Narnian "fact";
likewise with Edgar Rice Burroughs about Barsoom, or Leonard Webbley
about the Duchy of Grand Fenwick ("The Mouse that Roared", "The
Mouse in the Moon"), or Ursula LeGuin about her Earthsea
archipelago, to name a few.  And in fact, I would guess that maybe
95% to 99% of all fictionally created worlds have this point of
view.

Middle Earth does not.  Professor Tolkien identified himself not as
its creator, but rather as the translator of its histories.  Perhaps
this was the role most comfortable to him, since a large part of his
professional life was spent doing such translations.  However, it
has a convenient effect on answering any given question about Middle
Earth: as translator, rather than creator, he will know as much
about it as his readings of the original materials taught him.  That
certainly gives him the advantage over us, who have only the
material he has translated and published; nevertheless, it excuses
him from knowing everything there is to know about this world, and
frees him to have opinions.  Obviously, this is a polite fiction,
but I try to respect it, as I respect his desire that only
authorised publications of LotR be bought.  (By the way, who was it
who decided to publish LotR without even telling Tolkien, much less
asking him?  That part of the controversy I never heard.)

So his knowledge of Middle Earth can be no more complete than the
accounts he has translated.  And, whereas the Red Book of Westmarch
is the hobbits' own personal account of what happened to them, plus
the observations of their friends, "Translations from the Elvish" is
at best secondhand (Elves to Bilbo), and possibly third-, fourth-,
or more.  While I by no means actually presume that they are
inaccurate (a fifthhand story *CAN BE* as accurate as firsthand), I
cannot actually know beyond a reasonable doubt whether they are.  I
therefore don't feel as safe in placing full confidence in them as I
do in placing it in the firsthand accounts of "Lord of the Rings".
And the most remote of the lot, the Music of the Ainulindale, was at
very best only secondhand even to the Elves, so I feel the least
safe of all in placing full confidence in it as a factual account.
I still enjoy it greatly, of course: legend or fact, it is a lovely
story.

However, if you find the translation idea inadequate, consider that
Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" first (after Hobbit), out of the
"desire of a storyteller to try his hand at a really good story."
Although he also filled in histories of the Elder Days, as they grew
from LotR, they were a much more private affair, as those whom he
consulted felt they would be of no interest to the public (it is
terrifying how often the friends of great artists have such
wonderful advice to offer).  I believe they were therefore less well
developed, and certainly did not have the benefit of being released
in two or three editions, as LotR was, with corrections of errors
and inconsistencies.  I therefore feel that they did not share the
focus of Tolkien's efforts on LotR, and ultimately received less
development.  (I cannot feel there is any blame to place for this:
very few people write even one LotR in their lifetimes, much less
two.  And Tolkien was working under difficult conditions. )

Finally, I'm not sure exactly how one should decide, even in the
general case, when a letter by the author doesn't quite agree with
what he has published.  Is the more carefully prepared (presumably)
publication to be preferred, or the letter which may have more
experience behind it?  The problem exists even when the author is
viewed as the creator; when he considers himself only a translator,
it is increased.

However, I had virtually forgotten about this situation until I read
Mr.  Dalton's message.  While I feel that comparing many of the
stories of Silmarillion to Greek legend (in their remoteness and
uncertain status) overstates the problem, I think there is still
some similarity, and that the point made is a valid one, and I'm
grateful to him for pointing it out.

These are the aspects of the situation that I now see.  If you feel
there are others I'm missing, please try to convince me.  (Though
perhaps not on sf-lovers, where I've already taken far more than my
fair share of space.)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1218-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #215
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 215

Today's Topics:

           Films - Dr. Phibes (2 msgs) & Videos (2 msgs),
           Television - Max Headroom,
           Miscellaneous - Sexy SF (4 msgs) & Ashbless &
                   Time Travel & Chesley Bonestell & Space &
                   Tarot in Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 86 03:24:23 GMT
From: imagen!turner@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: cut -d 1-14,39-

> Has enyone ever seen a movie called 'Dr. Phibes' ?  What was it
> about?  I only saw < 3 minutes of it and am especially interested
> in what the organ playing was all about...

There are actually 2 Dr. Phibes movies, _The Abominable Dr. Phibes_
and _The Return of Dr. Phibes_, both have some of the most ingenious
death scenes I have ever seen, they star Vincent Price and are well
worth seeing.

Name:   James M. Turner
Mail:   Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101
        Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101
AT&T:   (408) 986-9400
UUCP:   ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner
CompuServe: 76327,1575
GEnie     : D-ARCANGEL

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 03:58:41 GMT
From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: cut -d 1-14,39-

I don't remember what the second film was about (although it was
still ingenious) so I'll stick to the first one.

"The Abominable Dr. Phibes" is about a dead man (Dr. Phibes) seeking
revenge against the medical team which failed to save his wife.
Upon hearing of her death, Phibes hurries home but has an auto
accident on a mountain road along the way, and dies in the ensuing
fire.  The film covers Phibes' revenge against the seven members of
the hospital team, one at a time, using (more or less) the eight
curses the Hebrews sent upon the Egyptians.  I believe the list was
boils, bats, frogs, blood, hail, locusts, death of the firstborn,
and darkness.  If I missed one or two, adjust the numbers seven and
eight accordingly.

Anyhow, Phibes rides around town in a carriage with drawn curtains
(and a picture of the appropriate view of himself in each window)
dealing death in sinister ways.

Doctor: "...I'll kill you..."
Phibes: "You can't kill me; I'm already dead..."

David Hsu  (301) 454-1433 || -8798 || -8715
Communications & Signal Processing Laboratory
Systems Research Center, Bldg 093
The University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
ARPA: hsu@eneevax.umd.edu
UUCP: [seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 16:30:26 GMT
From: rdin!perl@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Perlberg)
Subject: Re: "Gerry Anderson" fan club

A cassette called "Thunderbirds Are Go!" is available at your local
video store.

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
{philabs|delftcc}!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 19:37:30 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim )
Subject: Re: request for movies in video stores

You missed one of my all-time favorites:

Dark Star        -- Not for those who take their SF seriously

J. J. Whelan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 86 20:02:21 GMT
From: rlgvax!jsf@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Fritzinger)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (question)

> There is currently a music video on MTV with Max Headroom as the
> only performer.  The VJ calls this computer graphics, and many
> claims that Max is a computer synthetic have been made.  I've been
> a computer animator for years, and I claim that Max is NOT a
> computer graphic (at least, not the portrayal currently on MTV).
> The technology won't support it, and there are many "giveaways" in
> the tape I saw.  Can anyone confirm or deny this (WITH CITATIONS!)?

Several months ago the Washington Post ran a story about Max
Headroom in the Style sections.  It included an interview with the
actor who plays Max.  What we see is the result of several hours of
make-up to give the actor's head a "blocky" apperence.  He is then
taped, and the resulting tape run through some sort of digitizer.
Then the computer graphics guys work it over to make it look like a
generated image.  I guess you could call that computer graphics,
depending on your point of view.

Steve Fritzinger CCI-OSG Reston,Va.
seismo!rlgvax!jsf

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 16:29:40 GMT
From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Sexy SF

From: Marty Walsh  <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
>     Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites.  I
>have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add
>to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...)

Great idea, Marty! All this LOTR stuff is getting boring.

May I suggest John Varly's books. His "Titan" has some very hot
lesbian sex, and introduces interspecies sex very uniquely. In his
book "Millenium", the heroine (her name escapes me at the moment),
has a robot which she uses for sex. Hope you post the results to the
net soon.

Hank Buurman
Tektronix Inc.
...tektronix!tekla!hankb

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 01:14:14 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

Then there's :
   Disch's "334"
   Varley's "Ophiuchi hotline" (Big on sex, is Varley)
   Adams' "Maia" (all about a prostitute in fantasy surroundings)
   Trout's "Venus on the Half Shell"
   Moorcock's "Gloriana" (somewhat perverse if my memory serves
      me well)
   Farmer's Riverworld saga and "Blown"

In film there's the immortal "Flesh Gordon", I mean, who could
forget the emperor Wang's sex-ray.

Of course, I haven't actually read any of this stuff.... :-)

Tim Abbott
p.s. while we're on the subject, I'm sure that you all know Chris
Foss (air-brush artist extroadinaire - many book covers, album
covers, art work for Krypton, Nostromo (in Alien)) but did you know
that he did the art work for "Joy of Sex"?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 15:23:22 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus J. Ranum)
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

Lin Carter's Tara_Of_The_Twighlight or something like that...  I
used to have it when I was a kid...

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 17:44:22 GMT
From: imagen!turner@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

In my (not particularly humble) opinion the ultimate in erotic SF is
Phillip Jose Farmer's _Blown_ and _Image of the Beast_ if you
haven't read them then you've haven't read erotic SF, also I'd like
to nominate Elizibeth Lynn's _Sardonix Net_ and The Trantor Series;
and Colin Wilson's _Space Vampires_ or just about any fiction that
he writes.

Name:   James M. Turner
Mail:   Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway, P.O. Box 58101
        Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101
AT&T:   (408) 986-9400
UUCP:   ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner
CompuServe: 76327,1575
GEnie     : D-ARCANGEL

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 26 Jul 1986 14:07:06-PDT
From: mccutchen%lehigh.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN
From: 289-1428)
Subject: Wm. Ashbless.

I vaguely recall that William Ashbless showed up as a name in
MACROSCOPE by P. Anthony (or am I thinking of Sterling Lanier?).

Terry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 86 21:42:03 GMT
From: tekecs!mikes@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Sellers)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

> There are a lot of good arguments against the possibility of time
> travel, and since you did ask for comments I'll risk the flames
> for posting a "not-real-physics" article here.

I think this falls into more of a "could be might be maybe physics"
more than "not-real-physics," but who cares.  This is one of those
topics that is to make the speculative salivaries to overflow :-).

> Time travel violates the conservation of mass and energy laws.
> Consider transporting a 1Kg cube of gold 1 hour back in time.
> Then in the universe of 1 hour ago, there is this extra 1Kg from
> nowhere, totally unaccounted for.  Similarly in the here and now,
> we lost 1Kg of mass, poof, just like that.  Mass wasn't conserved
> in our universe.  That, as you should well realize, is a big
> no-no.

You have made an assumption here that is somewhat "temperocentric,"
and not necessarily true.  You have assumed that the Universe is
bound by the same linear time sense that we experience, at least
with regard to the mass/energy conservation law.  What if it is the
case that, while mass and energy must be conserved, they do not have
to be conserved with regard to time.  That is, I can take a Kg of
gold and project it 100 years in the future with no problem because,
from the Universal point of view, I haven't gotten rid of it, merely
transported it (though through time, not space).  Thus it does not
matter (in terms of conservation) if I take my gold and "send" it
forward or backward in time, because it still exists, just
"sometime" else.  It would be possible, if this were true, to "rob"
the future or past by taking all their gold and holding it here at
this point in time.  The consequences of this are rather
mind-bending, especially in extreme cases (has anyone read the
Stainless Steel Rat story where he has to go galavanting through
time?  there are some awfully interesting circular paths there
regarding materials being around because they were sent from the
future, so when the characters "get to" the future, they have them
on hand to send back to the past...so where did they come from?).
And of course just because we've beaten conservation doesn't mean
we've gotten rid of the demon of causality.

> There are lots of other arguments against it, causality and so
> forth.

As for causality, there is always the possibility of multiple
futures/pasts, or some even weirder possibilities with multiple
universes, etc.  Still, the original experiment would almost seem to
be a CETI project for time travel ("if it [ever] exists, this is the
only way we'll know") with the advantage that we only need to set it
up for a few minutes or a day at most.  If the spatial and temporal
coordinates are recorded and distributed well enough (time capsules,
newspapers, libraries, etc, etc), then anyone with time travel
capabilities would be able to "send" something/someone back to the
window of time during which we were watching.
  As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these
august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending something
back, what (or who) would it be?  And, if you were around when the
watching was done, what do you think the effect on "current" society
would be?  (This reminds me of the end of the movie "The Time
Machine," where we find the hero having gone back to the future (:-)
in his machine, taking only three books with him...and we are left
wondering which three out of his library he chose to take with
him...)

Mike Sellers
UUCP: ...!tektronix!tekecs!mikes

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 03:09:26 GMT
From: utzoo!henry@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Chesley Bonestell, 1888-1986

[I posted this a few days ago to the space newsgroups; a friend
pointed out that it is relevant to sf-lovers as well.  Don't know
why I didn't think of it, although no longer having the time to read
sf-lovers probably had something to do with it... ]

As I write this, it is the anniversary of the first landing on the
moon.  Early this morning, I read in *Locus* that one of the men who
made it happen has died.  Probably everyone reading this is familiar
with space art: realistic depictions of space travel and other
worlds.  Today there are many skilled space artists.  Forty years
ago there was *one:* Chesley Bonestell.  He died in his sleep on
June 11th at the age of 98.

Bonestell was interested in astronomical themes from his childhood.
His first painting of Saturn was destroyed in the San Francisco
earthquake of 1906.  But for many years it was just a hobby.
Professionally, he began as an architect, specializing in
`rendering': production of realistic drawings and paintings of the
final appearance of a project.  He was a remarkably skilled
renderer, and his unusual near-photographic style was in demand.
Perhaps the height of his architectural career was as conceptual
artist and designer for the Golden Gate Bridge.  At the age of 50,
he changed careers, becoming a Hollywood special effects artist.
Here too he was a considerable success, working on *Citizen Kane*
and *Destination Moon* (which won an Oscar for special effects)
among others.  A few years later, he took his new expertise in
camera angles and applied it to his old hobby.  He painted Saturn as
it would appear from each of its moons.  He submitted the results,
unsolicited, to *Life*, which bought it and published it in 1944.
Reader response was strongly favorable, and Bonestell quickly became
the first professional space artist.

In 1949 the book *The Conquest of Space*, text by Willy Ley and art
by Bonestell, became a best-seller and an award-winner.  Other books
followed, as did science-fiction movies and more work for *Life*.
The handful of men behind these efforts had a tremendous impact on
the public view of spaceflight, transforming it from an impractical
fantasy into a feasible possibility.  The effect on the generation
that would grow up to be the builders of the space program was
massive.  The words were by Willy Ley, or Arthur C. Clarke, or
Wernher von Braun, or Robert A. Heinlein; the art was nearly always
by Chesley Bonestell.

Bonestell's work appears in many museums.  He was one of the few
artists who have had a one-man showing at the Smithsonian.  He won
numerous awards, including a Hugo in 1974 for his science and
science-fiction art.  He was alert and still working right up to his
death, no small feat in itself for a man of 98.  He will be missed.

Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 14:01 +0200
From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #187

It is not completely obvious whether the last remarks were made in
earnest. In Swedish COM, however, whe have a debate called "THE NEW
PLANET" based on a seried of articles now running in Swedish press
"WORLDS TO WIN", after the famous Karl Marx quotation that the
workers have only their chains to lose but a whole world to win:
"Mankind now has only the chains of gravity to lose, but innumerable
worlds to conquer".

It seems that in the US of North America 250 000 people are
organized space fans , e g in the L5 society. Among those who
beleive in manned space-flights rather than automated sonds are T A
Heppenheimer, the Swedish-descended James Edward Oberg and Brian
O,Leary who is presumably of Irish stock. In North Europe, too,
people seem a little put out at the developments in the Third World
and ask themselves if technology will not eventually have to move
out into space. Do anyone of you guys as they say in Texas, read
what comes out of Stackpole, Harrisburg, Pa.?

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 28 Jul 1986 13:38:59-PDT
From: fusci%nssg.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Ray Fusci TWO/E12 247-2745)
Subject: Re: Tarot writing the book (I prefer live authors, myself)

Here's an example:

Carl Sherrell, _ARCANE_, Jove/HBJ, 1978, 0-515-04466-0

The following is from the preface:

   ...The book is composed of twenty-two chapters, each being titled
   after one of the cards in the ancient Tarot deck...

   It could be said, with some justification, that this fantasy was
   written by the cards themselves, since their symbols dictated the
   plot and the natures of the characters. ... In the beginning
   there was only a hint as to where the story might lead, yet I had
   faith that, as I moved from one card to the next, the Tarot would
   reveal a basic theme.  To my delight, I found myself as much a
   spectator as those who will read _Arcane_ now. ...

I'm not sure how I acquired this book.  I certainly would never have
bought it, after reading the preface.

Ray Fusci
ARPA: fusci@scotch.dec.com
UUCP: ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1240-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #216
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 216

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 17:37:42 GMT
From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: Aliens

djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes:
>Humans meet the hosts aliens evolved in.  Remember: a truly
>successful parasite doesn't kill its host; it would wind up with no
>source of food.

   My impression from _Aliens_ was that the alien life cycle was
like that of some parasitic wasps: capture host organisms for
young'uns to nosh on after they hatch.  Wasps seem to get along fine
while totally destroying their hosts -- I think this just means that
the host populations of the aliens were productive enough to survive
massive host-napping by the parasites.

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 86 21:25:24 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan)
Subject: ALIENS - Spoilers - A Second Viewing

I saw ALIENS a second time and wanted to address a few issues.

[1] Why didn't the Alien Mom rip Ripley's foot off? I watched
carefully: the Alien had a very firm grip on Ripley's foot. Ripley's
shoe came off.  It happened in less than a second, so I can't be
absolutely sure (at least until someone gets it on tape for a slo-mo
examination) but it sure looks like her shoe flys off and the Alien
falls through the hatch.

[2] Could Ripley climb up and out of the Airlock? Nasty point, but
if we assume that the bay was mostly sealed off from the rest of the
ship (a reasonable assumption given that the drop ship had just
docked) then a great deal of the atmosphere had already escaped.
Ripley had to survive the low pressure left in the bay, fight the
forces of the (now) fairly low pressure escaping air, and signal the
lock to close and the bay to be repressurized. Okay, so its a big
rationalization.

TRIVIA: Remember in 2010, there is a magazine sitting at the nurse's
station in the hospital/nursing home. It is either TIME or NEWSWEEK
(no I don't remember which). The cover ostensibly had the U.S.
President and the Soviet Premier pictured. Of course, it was
actually Arthur C.  Clarke and Stanley Kubrick, creators of 2001. A
nice in-joke.

In Ripley's cabin at Gateway there is a magazine. What was the
magazine (I know the answer to this one) and who was pictured on the
cover (have no idea).

John Sloan
Wright State University
Computer Science and Engineering
Dayton, OH 45435
(513) 873 - 2491, -2987
CSNET:      jsloan@WRIGHT.EDU
USENET:     ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan
ARPANET:    jsloan%wright@CSNET-RELAY
DECNET LAN: wright::jsloan
SMTP LAN:   jsloan@wright

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 86 17:38:42 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (MY MY how you've GROWN!)

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
> One minute you've got a cute li'l chest burster, the next you've
> got a big lug on the lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE
> DID THE BIOMASS COME FROM???

The original novelization had several scenes not in the movie.  One
of them was finding that the chestburster had gotten into the ship's
stores, and eaten LOTS and LOTS of biomass.  Not sure about the
THING, but didn't it have similar opportunity?  Something about sled
dogs to munch on, stores missing, and the like?

I'll agree that the fact that nobody wonders what aliens eat (as
opposed to wondering how they reproduce) in the movies is a weak
point.  But not a major one, given that they only have a limited
amount of time to spend explicating these problems on-screen.

Wayne Throop
..!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 86 17:40:29 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (spoilers, explanations of some fine points)

srt@ucla-cs.UUCP writes:
> Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS:

Ha!  If THESE are all you could find...

Before I do my duty and refute these points one by several, I'll
point out that the Alien movies are some of the very *best* from the
standpoint of consistency and plausibility.  MUCH better than Star
Wars, Close Encounters of the Most Nauseating Kind, ET, the Star Trek
movies, and so on and on.  Yes, they have inconsistencies, but FAR,
FAR fewer than is common in most SF movies.

That said, let me nominate the armored vehicle for my choice as
worst inconsistency in Aliens.  Not enough ground clearance, too
much overslung weight, inconsistent treatment of the strength of the
armor.

>What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in
>hostile territory?

Ones with a stupid commander, who says "the area is secure", and
then overrides Ripley's vehement protest.  He proves his
incompetence in other scenes, so his stupidity is hardly
inconsistent or implausible.

>Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days.  So why use
>cold sleep to make the trip?

Many possible reasons.  One of the simplest: sleeping people use
less oxygen, get less bored.  There might also be reasons related to
whatever FTL technique is used.  This, in fact, was one of the
charming things about these movies.  They didn't feel compelled to
explain every blasted little detail.  The classic comparison: would
you expect a cop in a cop movie to pull his gun, and then spend
precious screen time explaining how chemical powered slug-throwers
work?

>The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing
>craft so he had to circle it around.  But the landing craft was
>shown hovering.  Why not just hover off the platform?

Winds were too unsteady there.  He was hovering nearby in calmer
air.  This was explicit in the book, implicit in the movie (remember
he almost crashed while picking up Ripley and Newt, despite his
synthetic reflexes.)

>Why doesn't Ripley load her guns before she leaves the landing
>craft?

Time pressure.  She was trying to get to Newt before "impregnation".
Otherwise, you have the problem of "why is Newt still alive and
uninfected?"

>Why doesn't she carry an extra clip or two for the gun?

She did in the book.  I didn't really notice in the movie, but I
suspect she did there also.  She used all her ammo, all her
grenades, all her "napalm", plus several refills.  She could only
carry a finite amount, however.

>How about a handgun?

Weight.  I'd rather carry extra ammo for the more potent weapons
than carry weapons less likely to take out the opponents.

>She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand
>grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd
>warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous
>now that the plant was about to blow sky-high.

Why would it be more dangerous to damage a cooling system that had
already failed?

>Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of bio-scan
>once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't carrying an
>Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens).

Who says she didn't?  They can't show everything on-screen.

>If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try
>the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand?

"There is no 'try'.  There is only 'do', or 'do not'!"  The point
being that Bishop was fully aware that he wasn't going to harm
Hudson.

As to sequels, they don't need to overlook anything, any more than
we needed a chestburster in the cat for Aliens.

Wayne Throop
..!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 03:34:30 GMT
From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor

From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
>One *BIG* argument that I have with the movie that unless they
>supposedly don't use the same fuel that is now used it is *NEXT*
>*TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode as they had it.
>
> Now a melt down of a plant the size of the one in the movie would
>do serious damage to the immediate area but there would be no
>mushroom cloud.
>
>    I expect some interesting responses to this.

If I was listening correctly I think that the reactor was a FUSION
not FISSION reactor. I have to admit that I don't think a fusion
power reactor resembling our current technology could explode like
that either, but you might propose some radically different
technology in the future that might.

An easier approach might be to postulate a power source that uses a
few grams of antimatter in some sort of magnetic containment vessel.
If the containment vessel fails.. WOOM.  Of course this kind of
power would be rather risky, so it might be reserved for orbiting
power stations or planetary terraforming projects, where the only
people exposed to the risk are the people being paid to take the
risk.

Of course, this doesn't explain where you get the antimatter.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 86 18:00:36 GMT
From: rlgvax!bub@caip.rutgers.edu ( Mongo Mauler)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes:
> 4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
> ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
> they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only
> glimmer of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an
> elevator.

I believe that this is totally incorrect.  The aliens did not pilot
the first ship.  The first ship was of another alien race whose
pilot had been killed by infection and a burst chest, just like his
much smaller human counterparts.  I believe that this leaves us open
to yet another sequel: since the ship was not one of their own there
are obviously more of them out in space.  Better yet, who knows
where the home planet of these critters lies?

I consider this to be a GREAT flick for sci-fi and scary movie fans!
The holes in logic seem to have been made by pins rather than by
post-hole diggers.  All in all, a most satisfying experience.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 17:01:18 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Spoilers - A Second Viewing

> [2] Could Ripley climb up and out of the Airlock? Nasty point, but
> if we assume that the bay was mostly sealed off from the rest of
> the ship (a reasonable assumption given that the drop ship had
> just docked) then a great deal of the atmosphere had already
> escaped. Ripley had to survive the low pressure left in the bay,
> fight the forces of the (now) fairly low pressure escaping air,
> and signal the lock to close and the bay to be repressurized.
> Okay, so its a big rationalization.

Before I see any flames, I meant the most of atmosphere had already
escaped as a result of her opening the lock door. Naturally we would
assume that the bay had been repressurized after the drop ship had
docked. After all, the people in tha bay didn't look blue or
anything :-).

John Sloan
Wright State University
Computer Science and Engineering
Dayton, OH 45435
(513) 873 - 2491, -2987
CSNET:      jsloan@WRIGHT.EDU
USENET:     ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan
ARPANET:    jsloan%wright@CSNET-RELAY
DECNET LAN: wright::jsloan
SMTP LAN:   jsloan@wright

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 09:04:06 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: James Horner/Aliens

Actually, he may not have stolen the STII music-he wrote it! It may
just sound similar.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28-JUL-1986 10:13 EDT
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTVAX5.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens

Went to see Aliens again, and watched for various things...  To
comment on a few things I've seen in the last couple of issues.

1) I think Lambert and Dallas in the first movie would have gotten
the strong impression that they weren't native.  It looked to me
like they picked up these beasts somewhere and crashed when the crew
got killed.

2) The marines were COLONIAL marines, not COMPANY marines.  As for
why they would leave everything behind, I offer 2 reasons

   a) Like the Starship Troopers, Everyone Jumps.  They don't need a
   ship crew. In 57 years star travel has become a passenger
   occupation.  Bishop is the only member of the Sulaco flight crew.
   Ripley would have probably been flight crew had she returned like
   the company wanted on old antique tugs, like the Class M
   Nostromo.

   b) They're cocky.  "These marines have state of the art weapons.
   They can handle anything. Isn't that right Lt.?" "Yes, it is."

3) Queenies grip didn't break, Ripley's powerloader adaptor boot
came off.  Note that the powerloader has very big foot holders.  And
ripley wears very big boots while in it.  I think that they just
make an assortment of operator boots, and one, non-adjustable, hard
to break, power loader foot. Seemed to be very big and velcro
fastened.  I'm not surprised the velcro broke.

4) Note that although the Sulaco was quite large, most of it seemed
to be taken up by the common area, the weapons area, the hyper sleep
room, probably a LARGE sickbay, and the huge hanger.  Add stuff for
the turrets and other weapons, and a large set of engines, and you
are getting tight.  It's a surface assault vehicle.  It seems to
also be armed for orbit ship to ship combat (why else have top
mounted cannons?).  For that it needs to be fast.  So, rather than
entertain the troops for up to a month at a time, providing
barracks, etc.  put them in hypersleep like sardines in a can.
Amazing how much cargo space it reduces too.  No need for a month of
air, food, water, etc.

5) In the first book, I seem to remember that Dallas wasn't
impregnated with another alien, he was becoming an egg. In fact
there were a couple of egg-like things in the room with him.  My
hypothesis is that an adult alien can generate a queen egg on his
own, in fact several, given the proper cues. (i.e.  lack of a
queen...)  Those queens would then battle it out for control, and
the winner would become literally the queen mother.  Probably mating
with the original warrior and killing him in the process since he'd
be the only one not of her brood.  Wonder how long aliens live if
not being shot at?  Remember, Ash said it was a perfect organism.
Seems to have "reconfigured" itself to human environments and hosts.
I doubt those giant aliens were enough like us that the embryos
could work without changes.  Nor was our atmosphere mix all that
similar. (Certainly Acheron's wasn't back then, even around the
plants.)  I can't see a p.o. needing a queen and not being able to
make one.

6) The facehuggers didn't eat through the storage canisters cause
they were in stasis. (Yea, I know, how come they can move? Maybe
movie stasis is different... or maybe only the glass is in a stasis
field :-))

7) Interesting point in the book.  Ripley had a daughter about
newt's age that died of a (I think) heart attack in her old age
before ripley returned.  She was naturally very attracted to
surrogate daughter. (now a real one).  By promising newt she
wouldn't leave, and then going after her, she was not only saving
newt, but she was also fulfilling her promise to her daughter to be
back for her birthday. (as she said in the book, boy, did I blow
that one.)

8) I wonder about those grenades.  At times they seemed to barely
have a punch, and at other times it looked like it was a tactical
nuke!  Like in the tunnel, when Gorman and Vasquez killed
themselves.. I realize it was a confined channelled space, but come
on.  The fireball almost reached the Heros.

Hmm.. This got a bit longer then I expected.  Oh well.

Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1300-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #217
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 217

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Videos,
                 Television - Star Trek (6 msgs) &
                         Max Headroom (2 msgs) & 
                         The Prisoner
                 Miscellaneous - Tarot in Books & TUCKER Awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 23:47:30 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: request for movies in video stores

wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  lists
>Movies that I have NOT found at local video stores but may be in
>yours:
>
>Ghostbusters
>Star Trek III

These 2 are certainly available.  We rented them from a place near
us (South Laguna, Orange County, Calif).  I'm sure I've seen others
from the list you gave, but I won't say until I know definitely.
I'm delighted to see 2001 listed as available.  That is my favourite
movie bar absolutely none, and that includes a number that I like
very much indeed.

For those of you who endure the cable companies to the extent of
getting movie channels (Home Box Office, the Movie Channel, ON,
Group W, etc.)  several of these films are shown there.  I have seen
Dark Crystal, Ladyhawke, Dragonslayer, Star Wars I, and Star Trek
II, not to mention the ??? film (whose name I can't remember either,
nor would I really go to the effort of doing so).  Dune has appeared
on them, and Mad Max -- Beyond the Thunderdrome is playing on HBO
this month.  So if you feel like paying the rental fees, and live
somewhere where the cable companies are actually forced to provide a
decent signal, this may be for you.  Certainly the picture quality
that's transmitted (if it arrives intact) is quite a bit better than
what's on the videotapes.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 19:50:49 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I]

> Which is precisely why I've never heard anyone say that the
> Special Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad
> movie or that they didn't like it.  The version of STTMP that
> reached theaters back in December, 1979 was a very poor edit of an
> otherwise good movie.  They cut out very much of the
> Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction and washed out their
> characterizations in the process.  If you haven't seen the Special
> Longer Edition, then you haven't seen the real "Star Trek: The
> Motion Picture".

Well, for your info, the Special Longer Edition of STTMP one can get
on videotape is a bad movie or, I didn't like it.  I found that they
really didn't add much more to the movie.  When I heard about 12
additional minutes, I was quick to assume that they'd add a missing
scene or something, but they didn't.  I had so hoped that they'd
have included the scene where Kirk argues to take command of the
Enterprise, but Noooooooooo!  They probably didn't want to pay the
actor who played the unseen admiral.

What they did do was similar to the little snippets you saw in
STTWOK, on ABC.  They just padded out certain scenes with a few
extra seconds of unseen footage.  They were easy to detect, as they
were of a differing picture and audio quality than the rest of the
movie.  Also, they had a real blunder in the one scene they did add:
Kirk suits up and McCoy pleads with him to consider the consequences
of going after Spock.  If you have the astute eye I do (:-), of
course), you'll notice that the suit Kirk puts on IS NOT the same as
we see him in outside of the Enterprise!

What they should have done to make the tape a win was to edit out
the slow passage through V'Ger (or at least a lot of it).  I could
have done without the Ooh-Ahh-Oh looks from the crew, too.

As a side comment, a Turkish friend of mine saw the film.  She had
seen the series back in Turkey (this might have been really funny,
seeing the show with all the voices in Turkish :-).  When the movie
was over, she asked me how I could watch such sh**.  Hmmm, should I
answer that?  :-)

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 04:19:31 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@su-sierra.arpa>
>There will be an all new cast for the series, with current major
>characters doing cameo appearances and current minor characters
>doing entire shows as guests.

   Well, they can have the tv and movie rights to the Star Trek RPG
campaign characters created here in Lexington. It shows a whole new
side of the Federetion. Our Captain is an engineer who has a running
battle with amphetimines (comes from her spending 30 to 60 hours
trying to fix the ship during combat conditions). The navigator is a
catian hooked on 20th century Terran culture (imagine a cabin decked
out in lava lamps, black light posters, and a stereo which can shake
the ship). The helmsman is a little "zealous" in combat (she wears a
Rising Sun headband and 1000 Knot Belt on the bridge).  The science
officer is a Native American who cares more for his weaponry than he
does for his job (his bed is made out of Kligon rifles with firing
pins removed - and built by the Captain). The doctor makes extra
money as a pusher (ever wonder where the medical supplies on the
captured ships go? ), and the nurse is a nymphomaniac who is
legendary in the Federation (she could only increase her status by
becoming bisexual - and she is considering it).  Our head engineer
is an android of some sort. There is a pacifistic Kzinti in
security. We have caused more damage to our ships than the Klingons,
Romulans, Tholians, and pirates combined. Our only true success was
the time we were sent to destroy an experimental ship which the
Orions captured (brass got smart and had has blow up a ship. We had
no problems)

    This could make for some good tv. It can't be any worse then
what is on now.  ;-)

Catherine Ariel Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 10:38:51 -0500
From: George Lindeberg <gel@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

chabot@3d.dec.com writes:
> This is also why I hated "The Search for the Director": Kirk's
> son, one of the symbols of change and future, gets trashed, so
> that the Vulcan Vestal Virgins can resurrect Spock from the
> guillotine.  Bah.  Why is it only the old characters are redeemed
> and continue?

     David did not die to save Spock; he attacked the Klingon just
as Savik (?sp) was about to be killed.  Recall that the Klingon
walked behind Spock and David and then paused behind Savik and
clicked open the knife.  It was at this point that David jumped the
Klingon.  This is also quite clear in the book version of ST III.  I
think that Savik qualifies as one of the "new" characters.

George Lindeberg

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 19:29:52 GMT
From: omen!caf@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I]

trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes:
>What they should have done to make the tape a win was to edit out
>the slow passage through V'Ger (or at least a lot of it).

Many times when I play my LaserDisc of 2001, I play the Blue Danube
sequence (earth->station, station->moon) and nothing else.
Likewise, I sometimes play the "V'ger approach/flyby" because I like
that part.  An "outer space" classical music video, if you will.
I'd like to have a good copy of Zardoz to enjoy its Beethoven's 7th
music video as well.

Having seen the original STTMP a number of times as well as having
read the book, it wasn't until the 1.5 version that the significance
of Ilia became apparent.

STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of a
possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in
1980.  The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space operas
that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical issues.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 13:00:42 GMT
From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I]

rjnoe@riccb.UUCP (Roger J. Noe) writes:
>Which is precisely why I've never heard anyone say that the Special
>Longer Edition of STTMP one can get on videotape is a bad movie or
>that they didn't like it.  The version of STTMP that reached
>theaters back in December, 1979 was a very poor edit of an
>otherwise good movie.  They cut out very much of the
>Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction and washed out their characterizations
>in the process.  If you haven't seen the Special Longer Edition,
>then you haven't seen the real "Star Trek: The Motion Picture".

   This is a stupid question. Where can I get a copy of STTMP on
video cassette? There don't seem to be any places in Lexington to
buy video tapes, just rent them. (And VHS at that. Yuk!) Surely
there are mail-order places for tapes...

Edward C. Bennett
UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 03:13:14 GMT
From: linus!sdl@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven D. Litvintchouk)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek new TV series [Star Trek I]

>they had a real blunder in the one scene they did add: Kirk suits
>up and McCoy pleads with him to consider the consequences of going
>after Spock.  If you have the astute eye I do (:-), of course),
>you'll notice that the suit Kirk puts on IS NOT the same as we see
>him in outside of the Enterprise!

Actually, there was even a worse blunder.  They also added the scene
where Kirk actually exits the Enterprise to go after Spock.  You see
Kirk going out of the Enterprise airlock.  But they never added the
special effects matte of the rest of the Enterprise, so you actually
see the movie set hardware (woodwork, lights, etc.) surrounding and
behind the Enterprise airlock.

Steven Litvintchouk
ARPA:  sdl@mitre-bedford
UUCP:  ...{decvax,genrad,philabs,security,utzoo}!linus!sdl

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 01:39:43 GMT
From: oliveb!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Good old Max again

From: JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
> Oh by the way folks. That so called M-M-M-Max Box is called a
> crosshatch generator. Anyone know what that means?

I believe that, in the movie, Big Time TV (the people that first put
Max on the air) got billed for a crosshatch generator but could
never actually figure out where (or what) it was.  So, in order to
get their tax accounting to match, they called the (supposedly free
but probably stolen) Max Box a crosshatch generator.

Am I way off base with this or what??

From the David Letterman show:

Dave: Can I ask you something?  Do you have a plate in your head!?
Max:  I have a whole set of china!

(If you ever see the movie, count how many times the number 42 is
used throughout the film...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29-JUL-1986 11:34 EDT
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTVAX3.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: cross-hatch generator (Max Headroom)

A cross hatch generator is used in testing/aligning T.V.'s..
Generates all sorts of neat color patterns.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 15:14:25 GMT
From: hadron!klr@caip.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) writes:
>Does anybody remember the engine block serial number quoted in the
>episode "Many Happy Returns"?

From watching a recording of "Many Happy Returns":

   Lotus Super 7
   KAR120C
   Dark Green body
   Bright Yellow nose piece
   Engine Number 461034TZ (try that one on your trivia buffs!)

As a side note, #6's flat number in London is:

                #1

Kurt Reisler
..!seismo!hadron!klr

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 29 Jul 1986 10:17:33-PDT
From: sharp%dairy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Has this been done?

Regarding Derek Zahn's idea for a story structured around the Tarot:

Who cares if it's been done? The question is, is it a good idea?
What if Beethoven had decided that he couldn't do symphonies because
Haydn and Mozart had already covered it?

If you get to the point where plot, characters, etc, all seemed to
be working together well only to have the underlying structure
removed because it's been done, well then figure out another way to
reveal the structure.  The structure will still be there, and still
be solid and if you're facing copyright infringement or something
(which would purely amaze me) you can twiddle things in fairly major
ways and the foundation will still be granite.

Don't use this as an excuse to put off writing.

Don
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dairy.dec.com!sharp
ARPA:   sharp%dairy.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 13:47:48 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: TUCKER Awards Final Ballot for SF-Lovers readers

                     T U C K E R   A W A R D S

A new award was instituted last year to recognize the activities of
that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention
partiers.  Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the
official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction
Convention Partying is the "Tucker".

The first two years awards are sponsored and administered by the St.
Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be
administered by a related group.  The awards will be nominated and
voted on by members of Czarkon 4 (St.  Louis' "adult relaxicon"),
and the rest of SF party fandom via St. Louis in '88 bid parties and
any fanzines or SF club newsletters willing to reprint the
nomination form and/or this final ballot.  [**This includes
SF-LOVERS**]

There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or
dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan.  Couples or groups are eligible as a
single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is
eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the
presenting convention if they win.  Winners are not eligible for
re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible
again the following year.  The 1985 winners were:

  Special Grand Master Award:  Wilson "Bob" Tucker
  SF Professional:             Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle
  SF Artist:                   David Lee Anderson
  SF Fan:                      Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt

The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice
bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year,
award name, and the winner's name.  An instant tradition was begun
in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home
from the convention empty (many self- sacrificing volunteers helped
empty the awards).

To vote for the 1986 Tucker Awards, write a number from 1 to 4 in
the spaces below by the names in each category, 1 being your first
choice and 4 being your last choice in EACH CATEGORY.  After marking
your ballot, detach it along the dotted line and mail it to TUCKER
AWARDS, c/o St. Louis in '88, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188.
Photocopied, mimeographed, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of
this ballot are acceptable.

[*Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to
"zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA"*]

                 VOTING DEADLINE IS 1 NOVEMBER 1986

                      1986 TUCKER AWARD BALLOT

PRO TUCKER:     ____ Ed Bryant
                ____ Glen Cook
                ____ Andrew J. Offutt
                ____ Dick Spelman

ARTIST TUCKER:  ____ Keith Berdak
                ____ Joan Hanke-Woods
                ____ Dell Harris
                ____ Larry Tucker

FAN TUCKER:     ____ Chris Powell
                ____ David Rogan
                ____ Dick Spelman
                ____ Nancy Tucker

      Small ($1 or less) donations will be gratefully accepted to
      defray award expenses, but ARE NOT REQUIRED in order to
      nominate or to vote.  Tucker Award donations will N O T be
      used to support the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1318-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #218
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 218

Today's Topics:

                    Films - Bladerunner (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 16:58:55 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream ...

I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this group,
and it just doesn't measure up.  The following are important in a
great SF classic:

1) The premise should be at least reasonable
   BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart.  In a
   world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the
   Earth, why would this be done?  It makes sense for whoredroids,
   but for mining robots?  The society depicted in BR would have
   insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something.
   Remember that this society mandated the short life span, since it
   was possible to make them immortal from a technical p.o.v.

   A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is
   that the technology for complete duplication of human beings
   (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the
   time-frame described.

2) If it has SFX or futuristic sets, they must be good
   This is BR's main positive point.  Good sets and effects, a well
   done and original portrayal of a dismal future.  I contend that
   these good sets impressed some people so much that they ignored
   the other major faults.  Note that BR's main shining point is in
   an area that a great SF film doesn't even have to posess.  SFX
   have been equated with SF in the general public's mind, but
   they're wrong.

3) Production values should be good to excellent.
   BR is on the ball here.  Plain old good moviemaking is important,
   although films like "Dark Star" are an interesting exception.

4) The plot should be superb
   BR has a good hunt plot, but not a superb one.

5) If dialogue is an important part of the story it should be superb
   and entertaining.

   Flat on the face for BR.  The dialogue is miserable, campy and
   boring.  If it weren't essential to the plot, this might be
   excused.  Camp is only for camp films.  This was not one.

   Note that this is the major disqualifier for classic status.  No
   film is perfect, but a classic film can't score a "bad" in any
   category.  The worst it should get is a "fair."

6) Human beings should be done well, with real characters.
   Acting in BR is credible.  The characters (of the humans) get a
   "fair" from me.  The story attempted too much scope, and didn't
   have time to show much depth to the characters.

7) SF should be good and integral to several facets of the film.
   If it's going to be an SF classic instead of a film classic, this
   must be the case.  BR's replicants are not SF.  Some people have
   credited this movie for making the androids so human.  This is
   the problem.  The story centered around the replicants having a
   full set of human emotions.  This changed it from a story about
   androids to a story about slavery.  Had their been an AI element
   it might have been SF, but instead the SF was used only as a
   vehicle.

   The setting is reasonable SF, but that's not enough when the plot
   pretends to be, but isn't

8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal
   superbly.

   I sure didn't.  What was the goal?  If the goal was to show me
   images of a grim future, it succeeded, but why then did they put
   a soundtrack on it?  If the goal was to make me feel something
   for the replicants, it failed because they didn't make any sense.
   Why were they so perfect?  Why did they have the meaningless
   programmed lifespan?  Was the goal to tell an interesting story?
   I've seen Frankenstein enough, thanks.  Re-doing the oldest
   cliche in SF does not a classic make.

   This point #8 is perhaps the most important.  It is point #8 that
   critics review in the paper the next day.  Point number 8 can
   almost excuse all the other points, because that controls how you
   feel coming out.  Sometimes failure on #8 can be the fault of the
   viewer, not the moviemaker - "2001" is an example.  "Star Wars,"
   on the other hand, had such a "Damn, what a good movie!" feel to
   it that even space-opera haters rated it highly.  "Dark Star"
   succeeds so well at its goal that a $45,000 budget (or whatever)
   doesn't detract.  "Back to the Future" is so funny that the fact
   it is only a "fair" time travel story slips your mind.

   A movie that fails #8 can win "best sets", "best actor" and other
   awards, but it can never win "best picture."

Now, in reply:
> Now hold on just one minute, the "Frankenstein" story is one of
> the oldest and most revered of sf legends, and is certainly not
> over told, particularly in the case of Blade Runner. It is also
> reasonable to suppose that future robots will be made in the
> likeness of their, hopefully, human creators; this being one of
> the most adaptable, flexible and dextorous automotive forms known
> to man.

No, "Frankenstein" has been told far too often.  So often that the
public now views it as the natural course of events for creation to
destroy creator.

Where does this concept come from?  Mankind has envisioned many
types of gods in its history, but where (in reality, not fiction)
has there ever been a culture that wishes to kill their god?

I fear directors think that if they base their plot on a classic SF
story like Frankenstein's monster, their film will become a classic
film.  No dice.

I have already noted above why the totally human robots don't make
any sense.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 20:56:28 GMT
From: metzger@heathcliff.columbia.edu (Perry Metzger)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. (LONG)

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this
>group, and it just doesn't measure up.

Before starting to counterflame let me say that I love the movie. It
is one of my favorite movies of all time.

>   The following are important in a great SF classic:

Whoa. Who said it was a great SF classic? I think it is a great
movie, period.  The fact that it has an SF element is only the
vehicle for the movie to convey it's theme, not an end in itself.
But I will play ball for a moment and answer your points.

>1) The premise should be at least reasonable
>   BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart.  In
>   a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the
>   Earth, why would this be done?  It makes sense for whoredroids,
>   but for mining robots?  The society depicted in BR would have
>   insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something.

"'More Human than Human' is our motto." -- Tyrell

So what is your point? A minor plot problem, in your mind? Most
great stories would have been completely different if something
slightly different was involved. What if Anna Karenina was on
another train and hadn't met Vronksky? It is pretty meaningless to
ask something like that unless it really glares out, like the "idiot
plot" in a mystery, where everything would be obvious if the idiot
wasn't lying for no good reason. And remember, even if you changed
their appearance, they would still be human inside.

>   A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is
>   that the technology for complete duplication of human beings
>   (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the
>   time-frame described.

Did everyone throw away their copies of 1984 because Big Brother
wasn't there to great us on 1/1/84 with telescreens in hand?

>2) If it has SFX or futuristic sets, they must be good
>   This is BR's main positive point.  Good sets and effects, a well
>   done and original portrayal of a dismal future.  I contend that
>   these good sets impressed some people so much that they ignored
>   the other major faults.  Note that BR's main shining point is in
>   an area that a great SF film doesn't even have to posess.  SFX
>   have been equated with SF in the general public's mind, but
>   they're wrong.

Hardly futuristic. Remember that the setting for Blade Runner has
been called "2019 meets the 1920's". The special effects are there
only to give flavor, as they should be in any good movie. There is
no dependance on effects, so far as I can see. No one was thrilled
out of their mind when they saw a flying car or two.

>4) The plot should be superb
>   BR has a good hunt plot, but not a superb one.

Hunt plot? It isn't a hunt plot. The fact that the main character is
hunting down the replicants is just the medium that carries the
story forward.  Blade Runner can hardly be called a real "mystery"
or chase story. It doesn't try to be.

>5) If dialogue is an important part of the story it should be
>superb and entertaining.
>   Flat on the face for BR.  The dialogue is miserable, campy and
>   boring.

In what movie is dialogue unimportant besides the odd porno flick or
Miami Vice episode (from it's first season). By the way, did YOU see
the same movie?  I found the dialogue to perfectly suited to it's
surroundings. Blade Runner's LA is bleak and desolate, and so most
of what is said is bleak. But tell me, you really thought that Roy's
death scene was campy? That it's dialogue was boring?  In my
opinion, those few moments spoke more to the condition of man than
anything else I ever saw in a movie. (Well, maybe "It's A Wonderful
Life", but then again I am a Capra fan.)

>   If it weren't essential to the plot, this might be excused.
>   Camp is only for camp films.  This was not one.

I saw no camp. Give some examples if you would.

>   Note that this is the major disqualifier for classic status.  No
>   film is perfect, but a classic film can't score a "bad" in any
>   category.  The worst it should get is a "fair."

By this time in reading through your list of arguments it becomes
apparent that instead of "Feeling" a movie, you are going through a
mental checklist when you see it. That isn't the way a good movie is
supposed to be judged. A good movie speaks to you, it moves you.

>6) Human beings should be done well, with real characters.
>   Acting in BR is credible.  The characters (of the humans) get a
>   "fair" from me.  The story attempted too much scope, and didn't
>   have time to show much depth to the characters.

The acting was very well done in my opinion. The script didn't give
vast opportunities for superb acting the way a Shakespeare play
does, but then again it isn't a Shakespeare play, it is Blade
Runner.

>7) SF should be good and integral to several facets of the film.

Why? That makes no sense. The SF is a way to get the ideas across
better, not an end in itself at any level. You ought to read Ursula
Le Guin's introduction to "The Left Hand of Darkness". She has quite
a lot to say about it. Then again, you might not like her writing,
either.

>   If it's going to be an SF classic instead of a film classic,
>   this must be the case.

Oh, you want it to be an SF classic. Being a classic of all time and
all genre's isn't good enough for you.

>  BR's replicants are not SF.

Have you seen replicants running around lately? No? Maybe that makes
them SF. But what does it matter, really?

>  Some people have credited this movie for making the androids so
>  human.  This is the problem.  The story centered around the
>  replicants having a full set of human emotions.  This changed it
>  from a story about androids to a story about slavery.

Was it supposed to be a story about androids? Who is interested in
androids?  They don't exist. But human emotions, those I can relate
to. They have meaning for me.

>  Had their been an AI element it might have been SF, but instead
>  the SF was used only as a vehicle.  The setting is reasonable SF,
>  but that's not enough when the plot pretends to be, but isn't

When is SF not a vehicle? When it is a bad SF movie, of course. All
great fiction of any sort invents circumstances that convey the
plot. What you imply is that by setting a story in, say, New York,
it must be a story ABOUT New York, or a New York story, etc. Some
writers choose to make the circumstances more important than others.
In some, the circumstances are everything. But with few exceptions
such stories are uninteresting. The best of SF does just what you
say it should not, which is use SF only as a vehicle. I am sorry to
say that you will not find a story about how to build a replicant or
what are the essentials of advanced biological engineering if you
watch Blade Runner. If you want to know about such things, wait
until they happen or invent them. They are not the primary purpose
of the film.

>8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal
>superbly.
>   I sure didn't.  What was the goal?

I bet you look at impressionist paintings and say "but what does it
mean", don't you? A great work of fiction stands on its own. It need
not tell you what it is trying to do. It should simply speak to you,
and move you. Blade Runner moved me. I walked away touched by it.

>  If the goal was to show me images of a grim future, it succeeded,
>  but why then did they put a soundtrack on it?

You went in and all you got out was images of a grim future with a
snazy sound track?

>  If the goal was to make me feel something for the replicants, it
>  failed because they didn't make any sense.

Roy's death scene did absolutely nothing to you? You felt nothing
inside?  The whole movie could be justified as a means of getting to
that scene, although it wasn't just that.

>  Why were they so perfect?

If they were perfect, why did they get hunted down? Who said they
were perfect? They were HUMAN, although no one noticed. That was
something you seem to have missed.

>  Why did they have the meaningless programmed lifespan?

Prehaps you didn't pay any attention to the explanation. Well, it
was there, and if you missed it even when it was spelled out for
you, well, that's your problem isn't it.

>  Was the goal to tell an interesting story?  I've seen
>  Frankenstein enough, thanks.  Re-doing the oldest cliche in SF
>  does not a classic make.

It was NOT a Frankenstein remake. It was not the tale of a monster
made by man. It was the tale of how men can repress each other
without paying attention to another's feelings. The replicants were
not monsters, they were victims.

>   This point #8 is perhaps the most important.  It is point #8
>   that critics review in the paper the next day.  Point number 8
>   can almost excuse all the other points, because that controls
>   how you feel coming out.  Sometimes failure on #8 can be the
>   fault of the viewer, not the moviemaker - "2001" is an example.
>   "Star Wars," on the other hand, had such a "Damn, what a good
>   movie!" feel to it that even space-opera haters rated it highly.
>   "Dark Star" succeeds so well at its goal that a $45,000 budget
>   (or whatever) doesn't detract.  "Back to the Future" is so funny
>   that the fact it is only a "fair" time travel story slips your
>   mind.
>
>   A movie that fails #8 can win "best sets", "best actor" and
>   other awards, but it can never win "best picture."

I came out of the movie the first time I saw it emotionally drained.
I thought "Damn, THAT WAS A GOOD MOVIE!". Prehaps you didn't feel
it. Luckily, you don't control the film industry.

>No, "Frankenstein" has been told far too often.  So often that the
>public now views it as the natural course of events for creation to
>destroy creator.

I didn't see it as a Frankenstein movie. The "monsters" don't kill
because they don't know what killing is. They kill because they are
afraid, terrified, of what we have done to them, and they are
desparate to escape.

"Quite an experience living in fear, isn't it. Thats what it means
to be a slave." -- Roy

>Where does this concept come from?  Mankind has envisioned many
>types of gods in its history, but where (in reality, not fiction)
>has there ever been a culture that wishes to kill their god?

I wouldn't mind getting a slug out at the almighty :-). But
seriously, I don't see that theme played out in the movie at all.
The mere fact that Roy kills Tyrell doesn't make that the movie. And
remember, in a good Frankenstein movie, the creator gets killed at
the start. Tyrell is the last person that Roy kills, not the first.
Maybe they were trying to say that it is the reverse of the
Frankenstein theme :-).

>I fear directors think that if they base their plot on a classic SF
>story like Frankenstein's monster, their film will become a classic
>film.  No dice.

Well, killer robots kind of died out after the "some forms of
knowledge are forbidden us" theme of early SF went away (thank god).
There havent been any such films in some time (don't flame me if I
am wrong, thank you.)  They certainly aren't poplular.

>I have already noted above why the totally human robots don't make
>any sense.

Why don't they make sense. You are a robot in some sense, and you
are human.

Well, I really stretched this one out. Sorry, but I just had to get
it out of my system.

I just want to close by saying that I think it was one of the best
films ever made. I loved it, always will love it, etc.

Perry Metzger
Metzger@heathcliff.columbia.edu
...!seismo!columbia!heathcliff!metzger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1334-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #219
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 219

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 17:45:48 GMT
From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #200

acw@ELEPHANT-BUTTE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM writes:
>I'm surprised that Sarima couldn't translate "Ungoliant".  If
>"Cirith Ungol" is "the Pass of the Spider", and "Iant Iaur" is "Old
>Bridge", mightn't "Ungol-iant" be "Old Spider"?

  *gak*

  iant = bridge
  iaur = old (as in "Iarwain Ben-Adar", "Oldest and Fatherless")

  ungoliant = spider-bridge?  Probably not -- as I suggested
   earlier,

probably Ungoliant was a name derived from something else, and if
spiders were all Ungoliant's descendants (as JRRT suggests) "ungol"
was derived from "ungoliant".

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 86 01:28:32 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Radagast choosing Middle Earth

robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>is descended from a "renegade" Maia; one who found Middle-Earth so
>fascinating that he forsook his duties to live there.  Tom Bombadil
>is another who falls into this category.  For that matter, so do
>Sauron, Saruman, the Balrog of Moria, Shelob, and Radagast the
>Brown.

Stanley Friesen replies:
>   No, Radagast the Brown is one of the five Istari who were *sent*
>to Middle Earth in the Third Age to combat Sauron.

I think he is pointing out that Radagast pretty well abandoned his
duties, preferring a gentle life among the birds and beasts to the
war against Sauron.  He served honestly and willingly when Gandalf
or Saruman asked, but he was no mover of events himself.  I think
it's fair to say that he dropped from the ranks of the Istari.

I do find it a little hard, though, to picture Sauron, the Balrog,
or Shelob "forsaking duties"; nor did they share Radagast's healthy
delight in Middle Earth.

Alastair Milne
PS.  It occurs to me that saying that two such powerful characters
were comparable because they were both Maiar may be no more valid
than saying a guppy is comparable to a great white shark because
they're both fish.  There are fish and fish, and there are Maiar and
Maiar.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 14:45 +0200
From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #190

This was a very long message but also one highly tempting to
comment. There are two main themes: the world of Tolkien and his
thoughts on the relations between essence and power, and much older
themes that he wove into his story.

I will mainly comment on the second. There are much older rings of
power than Tolkiens - e g the Niebelungen ring, which appears in
Wagner, but goes back to old Germanic stories. Many believe this
whole theme to be bound up with the magic that barbaric peoples
attibuted to Roman military technology and discipline; in the
Teutoburger Forest Hermann or Arminius smote the 17th, 18th and 19th
legions under Varus, who subsequently committed suicide. The sword
in the stone according to the same interpretation was again Roman
military technology; and king Arthur the captain of a small band of
Welshmen and Britons using the remnants of cavalry training to smite
the Saxons.

I was always stricken by Tolkien,s choice of names he being such a
great scholar in languages and history. The names of elves and their
language point, as you have remarked, westwards, to Celtic and
perhaps even Basque sources, to Avalon (which is in the far west of
Cornwall) and to Atlantis. Now Atlantis is by some thought to
represent the culture of Crete before 1400 BC, by others to
symbolize the great Megalithe culture of Western Europe before the
indoeuropeans entered about the year 2000 BC, when the military use
of the horse was understood in what is now Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, White russia and the Ukraine.

It therefore seems to me that the Elves are in their essence the
peoples that habitated Western Europe before 2000 BC, the men are
the Indoeuropeans (with a Northern or Germanic and a Southern or
Latin branch, called the Rohan (a noble French family) and Gondor
(which even has a hint of India in it). On the other hand all evil
seems to come out of Asia, with Mongol or Turkish names; Tolkien was
certainly no admirer of Stalin or Attila the Hun.  The Rings may
even be something else, namely the successive gains of human
technology, such as the hunting skills, the agricultural ones, the
handicrafts, eventually to be superseded by the One Ring, which I
take to be the governmental use of technology for miliary purposes.
It is natural to draw a parallel with the books of C S Lewis,
including That Hideous Strength, where nuclear power and nuclear
bombs "contaminate" an Oxford college.  Those Inklings where of that
idealistic

Permit me to add a purely local variation on this theme. In the last
century Finland, as in the 18th century the Baltic countries and
Pomerania, were taken from Sweden by tsarist Russia. In Finland,
particularly, occupation was far less rigid than by the Bolsheviks
of today, and a great measure of cultural freedom existed. Partly
because of the close vincinity to both capitals (Stockholm and St
Petersburg) a great cultural revival took place, both in Swedish and
Finnish. In particular a Swediush-speaking professor of history
published a major work by serializing it in the leading newspaper,
on Swedish-Finnish history from 1632 to 1772, the intention being to
extend it still futher, but the author died. The main theme is the
struggle between two great families, one nobilized and the other
fighting nobility from a farming, trading or clerical life. The
noble family posssesses a ring of power "The Ring of the King",
which is supposed to have been forged in the 14th century, under a
rare conjunctin of planets Jupiter, Mars and Saturn. The possessor
will excel in WHATEVER HIS NATURE DEMANDS, but he will lose it
utterly when swearing a false oath (meineid).  The ring also hardens
the heart of the bearer.

It seems to me that the forging of a ring implies technological
progress (whether astrological or military) but that its possession
implies command rather than innovation of such powers. The use as
well as the range of power involved in the forging will depend on
the nature of the individual or people that partakes in thre
process; the moral problems, however, remain quite unchanged.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 15:07 +0200
From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #193

El may mean star in Elvish, but in Hebrew it is certainly one of the
lesser names of God himself. As to the nature of Gandalf etc one is
reminded of the speculations of C S Lewis concerning angels and
semi-gods. The Inklings, very well read both in classical and Nordic
lore found it hard to believe that God had cheated those peoples
permitting them to rever the classic gods, Jupiter, Wotan etc. They
had to exist therefore, even to rule the planets named after them.
In the Biblical language they are angels, some of them benevolent
others fallen or evil.

In old tales, some animals can speak. They convey messages and
feelings, 'but have never to take moral stands, so they can not be
regarded as people.  The Orcs, I take it, symbolize first of all the
peoples of Central Asia, and as such are our enemies, but not
necessarily evil.  They serve the evil masters simply because these
masters are kings and despots of Asia, a continent where
individualism and democracy (in the view of the inklings and their
generation) has not yet taken root. Morally, therefore, they can be
compared to the Classic peoples, before they met Christiantity -
after Death they will go not to Hell but to Dante's purgatorio. The
Nazguls, on the other hand, did have a choice and are therefore, in
this world picture, hell-bound. Whether angels can die - I do not
think so. They can be imprisoned though, and put through mental
torture. As to the Balrogs, I feel they can be a kind of robots,
electronically steered tanks...

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 15:25 +0200
From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #191

This discussion seems strange to me, as though the debaters thought
there was a real series of events, that Tolkien could partly guess,
partly collect from documents and interviews. In my mind, Tolkien
creates, partly consciously and partly in his unconscious, the
stories from much older bits of pieces of real or imagined events,
forging them partly to his ends, following partly an inner logic.
The Elves, I Think, must partly be seen as grown-ups with all sorts
of sorrows and misfortunes and faults that remain partly obscured to
the hobbits, who are in comparison like naive children.  I like to
think of the Elves as French or Italians, Jews or Armenians, with a
long history of culture and suffering compared to the naive Hobbits,
perhaps residents of some peaceful corner of Europe who escaped war
for 180 years now.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 17:57 +0200
From: Eskil_Block_FOA1%QZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #200

Ys I think was not a country but a city. In the Southern Baltic
there are similar tales of another drowned city - Vineta. I fully
agree that such stories may have some truth to them. At Norwich in
England there is a museum on the sunken lands of Northern Europe. Of
course, in the North of Sweden and Finland, new lands rise out of
the sea instead.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 05:55:22 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

> After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of
> the Maiar.

Nope.

From _The_Letters_of_J._R._R._Tolkien_, p. 178, "Though a
skin-changer and no doubt a bit of magician, Beorn was a Man."

As to the classification of Shelob, I thought the following passage
from p. 81 (hardcover) of _The_Silmarillion_ was fairly indicative:

"For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the
days of the delving of Angband, and she [Ungoliant] mated with them,
and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and
went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her
offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs."

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 06:10:13 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards

> Does anyone have any references to the Blue Wizards in LOTR?  I
> think they were the Istari/Maia (sp?) called Curunir & Olorin.  I
> also think they went into the East of Middle Earth.

See Unfinished Tales and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.  Their names
were Alatar and Pallando.

> I'm designing a board wargame of the Lord of the Rings; I want to
> include alternative monsters/objects/characters that the
> Fellowship of the Ring could have met if they took a different
> route.  I have some ideas (others welcome); I'd like to know more
> about the blue Wizards to see if a meeting with one of them in
> Rhun would (have) be(en) a possibility.
>
> Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and
> Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had
> power with water (for want of better knowledge).

Tolkien explains somewhere that their story is not known to him, but
he fears that they became involved with certain evil "cults" among
the Easterlings.

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 06:15:22 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrrick@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Debating Tolkien's word

>However, if you find the translation idea inadequate, consider that
>Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" first (after Hobbit), out of the
>"desire of a storyteller to try his hand at a really good story."

Actually, the tales presented in _The_Silmarillion_ are among the
oldest of the entire Tolkien mythos.

rick heli
UUCP:      ... {ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!ccrrick
INTERNET:  ucdavis!ccrrick@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 16:07:12 GMT
From: wjvax!brett@caip.rutgers.edu (Brett Galloway)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
>After due consideration, I have to conclude that Beorn was one of
>the Maiar.  The Ainur were the only beings in all of Tolkien's
>writing who were able to effect changes of bodily form.  [more] The
>remainder of the Beornings may be human, or a mixture of human and
>Maia, as there is no direct evidence that they share Beorn's
>shape-changing ability, but Beorn himself must be pure Maia.

I agree that Tom Bombadil was Maia.  However, I disagree that Beorn
was.

I suspect, first, that the story of Beorn is not entirely consistent
with the mythos as it was later codified; remember that the Hobbit
is a children's story.

Second, there is no indication, either in the Hobbit or later, that
Beorn spent an unreasonably long period in existence.  Gandalf never
implies that Beorn had lived a long time, and Beorn seems to have
died, or at least to have left his household to his descendants.  I
doubt that a Maiar would show up, live for a normal human lifetime,
and leave.  Besides, Beorn's being Maia would give Beorn give Beorn
an importance that nobody recognizes, not Gandalf, Elrond, or
Galadriel.

Finally, magic is not evidence of being Maia/Vala.  Galadriel was
able to read other's thoughts (the examination of the Fellowship in
Lothlorien).  Luthien (sp? -- daughter of Melian and Elu Thingol)
was able to "change shape", in the sense that she flew like a bat in
the mission to recover the Silmarils.  Granted she was was a
daughter of a Maia, but she was an elf herself.

Brett Galloway
{pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!brett

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 20:03:07 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, Beornings, et al.

chris@maryland.UUCP (Lindor) writes:
>On the contrary, the knowledge was passed down in song and story.

   Very much so, song and verse is a much better medium for memory
than we "civilized" folk care to admit, especially among Elves where
the original author may still be around to correct them.

>In your translations, it is said that the last Elves left Middle-
>earth in the Fourth Age.  This statement is quite clear, succint,
>unequivocal---and wrong.  Someone seems to have forgotten us again!
>There is one group of Elves seldom mentioned: the Avari.  Perhaps
>someday I shall tell our story.

   That is not how I read the translations. I read it that all the
Elves who were going to leave left. Those that stayed behind no
longer had the *option* of leaving. This means that all of the
Noldor left, as well as essentially all of the Sindar, but I believe
quite a number of Silvan Elves, and perhaps even some Sindar stayed.
As was said in describing Frodo's departure from Lorien, the
remnants have dwindled, and are no longer as powerful as they once
were.
   I also think there were more tribes and wandering bands of Silvan
Elves than most readers of LotR realize, since they were/are the
scattered remainder of the Nandorin Elves(the ones who left the
Great Journey in the Vale of the Anduin). If there were any Avari
who were not turned into Orcs, they would be thoroughly mixed in
with the remnants of the Silvan Elves by now.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 20:32:03 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
>I can't think of any other examples of either Men or Elves who were
>able to discard their bodies without actually dying.

   I can. Luthien did it, and with her help, Beren was able to do
it. Also, their daughter Idril did it, she turned into a sea bird to
escape from the sack of the elf havens, and so brought the Silmaril
to her husband, Earendil.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1358-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #220
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 220

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 11:52:47 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@bbn-labs-b.arpa>
Subject: ALIENS

I forgot to mention in my previous message something that other
people have brought up: the idea that men's (and women's) business
suits will look almost identical to 1980's fashions 200 years from
now.  (Just check out old movies from the 1930's to see how
noticeably the business suit has changed in the last 50 years.)

To Will Martin: My first impression about the digital display of the
rifle capacity was that it was on a percent scale (e.g., when the
thing was newly loaded, it read out as 95%, a realistic
demonstration of the difference between "full" and full).

As to the "hyper-sleep" discussion, isn't it patterned after the
similar concept in the movie FORBIDDEN PLANET, where the crew went
into a form of suspended animation briefly, while the ship "jumped"
through hyperspace?  I gathered that this was for the safety of the
crew, not for passage-of-time reasons.

ALIENS opened big its first weekend (~$10 million), and the industry
speculates that it may surpass this summer's current box office
champs (TOP GUN and KARATE KID II), if it turns out to have "legs."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86  12:47 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: aliens

Ok, I would like to address a few of the points brought up in
previous postings:

>Hicks says the relief mission will show up in 17 days.  So why use
>cold sleep to make the trip?

I think conservation of resources combined with the avoidance of
mental fatigue adequately account for this.

>The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing
>craft so he had to circle it around.  But the landing craft was
>shown hovering. Why not just hover off the platform?

We know that the craft had vertical and horizontal thrust
capabilities.  I postulate that the android, when he moved the craft
off the platform, used a maximum amount of horizontal thrust, with a
minimum of vertical thrust. He knew that if he used vertical thrust
only, the downward force that would be exerted on the structure of
the weakened platform would almost certainly cause it to collapse,
making it very difficult, or inpossible, to get Ripley back on board
in time. So he had to fly around the structure once he took off, in
order to kill the horizontal vector, and to hover next to the
platform.

>If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try
>the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand?

Judging from the android's reaction speed demonstrated in the game,
there was no chance that Hudson could have been injured. Therefore,
if the android calculated that he would not hurt Hudson by playing
the game, the first law would not apply. He would instead be subject
to the second law, and obey the command to play the game.

>Point: when Ripley hit the airlock, ole queenie was hanging on to
>her leg and Ripley onto the ladder.  Why didn't Ripley's leg and
>the queen fly off into space?  I'd think Ripley's joints would fail
>before the queen's strength (remember Bishop?).  Sigh.

I think that a common error here is confusing size, strength, and
mass.  We know for a fact that the aliens are strong, but there is
no evidence that they are massive. On the contrary, given their
inhumanly fast reflexes and their speed in moving through the ducts,
it seems to me that the aliens are quite light for their size (I.e.,
low density).  It's possible that the queen, large though she may
be, is not much substantially more massive than Ripley. Ripleys leg
could take that much weight without tearing out of her hip,
certainly. The physical structure of a muscle is more important than
mass as far as strength is concerned.

>In the first movie, one was given the impression that the aliens
>were a local problem discovered by the crew of the first ship (the
>alien ship) and overcome by it. Then in the second movie they
>specified (Ripley did) that the aliens where not local. I was
>annoyed at this, where did she get this information?

Don't forget the giant's ship was a wreck; it had crashed. If the
aliens were native to the planet, the giants would have landed
normally, then been overwhelmed. This did not happen. Instead, the
pilot, who was busy navigating the ship, must have been caught
unawares by a facehugger that was already aboard the ship (notice
the giant was found in the pilot's seat). Made comatose by the
facehugger, the ship crashed into the planet (which was probably
being surveyed by the giant). We then have one alien on the planet
after it chest-bursts the giant. It recognized a new territory
unoccupied by its own kind. This simulated a genetic reaction which
turned this alien into a queen. This queen then lays all the eggs
found in the wreckage (this species must be able to fertilize its
own eggs), and eventually crawls off somewhere and dies of old age.
This is the scenario we find at the beginning of the first movie.

>if the aliens skin is dense enough to sustain molucular acid for
>blood, wouldn't it be kinda of tough to bullets too?

A substance does not have to be dense to be chemically inert.
Certain plastics are unaffected even by the strongest acids. I think
the aliens exostructure must be composed of such a plastic-like
substance, which is inert as well as hard and light (see above). It
is not meant for armor but to contain the acid. After all, a
predator biting into an alien would die almost instantly from the
acid, so their armor doesn't have to be strong.

>In the first movie, the meal they had looked like
>food-from-the-future.  while in the second movie we end up looking
>at T.V. dinners.

I hope in the 57 years elapsed between the two movies that some
improvement would have been made in the quality of "space food".

>In the first movie the little alien (the one that attaches to the
>face) jumped out and used the acid_blood to dissolve right through
>the space suit. So, what I want to know, how did they manage to
>keep those other aliens captured inside those containers? Wouldn't
>they just use their acid to get out?

Those containers must have been made of the kind of plastic that I
postulated above. Notice that it is inert, but not that strong (they
were smashed in order to let the facehuggers run loose in the room
with Ripley and Newt).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 86 11:30 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA

The problem mentioned wherein the man gets his butt whipped and the
woman has to save it by dragging his unconcious form to safety has a
few reasons.  In Aliens specifically, the Marines were fighting the
aliens while Ripley was cuddling Newt.  She didn't start fighting
until Hicks caught some acid in the face and chestplate.  This is
common in fights, but it's normally called reinforcements and
doesn't normally pull your fat out of the fire.

As for Bishop and his game of mumblypeg; he knew he wasn't going to
hit Hudson, so there wasn't any danger.  The only problem would be
freaking Hudson out, but Bishop's programming didn't seem that
complete.

Does Isaac get a residual every time someone quotes one of his laws
or has 50 years passed yet?  Nope, it's only been 40 years, but then
the copyright is supposed to last for 50 years after the authors
death, right?  Has he died yet, literarally speaking, of course? :-)

As for Bishop's continued functioning with only half his body, let's
play with some ideas. First, computers haven't changed radically.
This means Bishop's brain and nervous system are standard computer
parts that we know so well. This allows them to function independant
of his body, assuming an uninterupted power supply.  The "guts" we
saw splashed all over were more likely provided for the mechanics of
his body.  We already know that traditional levers and motors are
woefully inadequate for duplicating the human body.  They are slow
and bulky.  Perhaps a more fluid based system (with plenty of milk
for gore effect) would be more functional.  This seems to be how the
androids, er, artifical people were built.

The company may not be the tiolet paper that they are made out to
be.  While it is certain that Burke was a complete *sswipe, he
seemed to say that the company knew nothing about the Aliens.  He
was there to try and secure a "share" for himself in the bioweapons
field.  He said that if they blew off about the whole thing then the
company or, worse yet, the government would step in and there would
be no exclusive rights for anybody.  Burke probably sleezed his way
to his current position as (the guy who sent the Nostromo to it's
death)'s assistant.  Together they were trying to make a lot of
money on the sly without regard to how many people they killed.
Actually, you have to consider how you would react to this scenario.
Remember how tough mankind is and that there aren't any monsters.

You are a company executive with a large mortgage (about $2,000,000
at 27% for that house in San Diego) and you get an alien message.
Decoding it secretly by lubricating a few hands with $$$ you find
out it is warning of an alien creature.  Being a basic sleaze, you
order the nearest ship under your jurisdiction to investigate and
give the android orders to carry out the secret mission (because
people tend to worry about themselves).  The ship is never heard
from again.  You retire in another 40 years and live happily ever
after.  Meanwhile, your plucky assistant, who actually did the dirty
work for getting the message decoded and reprogramming the android,
finds out that Ripley has been found.  He now has the clout to
organize a capture mission because the colony ship he sent there has
disappeared and these critters look to be retty tough.  So he takes
a squad of Marines and heads out there to capture one, thinking that
they can't stand up to Marines.  The funny thing is that he believes
this or he wouldn't have gone along in the first place.  Meanwhile,
you are still living in a nice house worrying about your daughter,
who is on her third marriage to a migrant farm worker from Oregon.
Hardly fair is it?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 07:00:00 GMT
From: tekig5!chrisa@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) writes:
>Maybe the Compnay KNEW what was going on, but refused to
>(publically?) admit it. The android's programming in the orig. and
>a few other things could easily lead us to this conclusion.

But The Company *did* know about the aliens.  In the first movie
they purposely rerouted the Nostromo to pick one of them up.  Which
is something that bugs me a little about _Aliens_.  Why would The
Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these aliens on
it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to try to pick
them up?  Why did it suddenly drop the whole project of getting the
aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years later?

Yours in better understanding,
Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 20:09:05 GMT
From: wall@boves.dec.com
Subject: ALIENS -- \"You're so cute, let me hug your face!\"

The following discussion has what might be considered spoilers in
it:

Scott Jordan writes:
>What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in
>hostile territory?

I thought the alien that eventually wasted the dropship simply
scampered aboard when the dropship dumped off the APC.  Those little
buggers are fast.

Bill Ingogly writes:
> A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and
> many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this
> group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to
> grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a
> cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the
> lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME
> FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101
> puke ...

A somewhat related question comes to mind: How come the Alien on the
Nostromo was so huge (the sucker stood at least 2.5 meters by the
end) and so many of the Aliens on LV-426 were man-size?

My own theory goes back to a remark made about the aliens being
extremely adaptable.  They start out as very simple organisms, which
get more and more suited to their environment as they mature.

For me, this fells two birds with one grenade.  The alien on the
Nostromo had plenty to eat (no one is sure what they eat, maybe they
can suck down whatever is around) and it had plenty of room to move
around (lots of big spaces on the Nostromo) so it got big.  However,
back on LV426, there are a lot more of them, in fewer open spaces,
so they're smaller.

A local weekly newspaper (Worcester Magazine) called Aliens "one of
the five best combat films ever made."  That's what makes it such a
success in my opinion.  It stands all by itself.  Cameron didn't set
out to make a horror movie in space as good as Ridley Scott's.  He
took THE STORY and filmed a logical succeeding chapter to THE STORY.
That was enough to make it extremely entertaining, in spite of some
forewarning as to the plot.

Anyone on the net with influence in Hollywood take note.  THE STORY
is the thing.

Here's another question.  Did anyone get the feeling that the aliens
take on some slight physical characteristic of the host from which
they came?  It's sort of stupid, but in the brief glimpse I got of
the alien that sent that scumbucket Burke to his richly-deserved
fate, I had the feeling it had something of one of the dead marines
about it.

David F. Wall
Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, Marlboro, MA
UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves,gaynes}.dec.com!wall
        or !decvax::{boves,gaynes}::wall
ARPA: wall%{boves,gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 14:09:03 GMT
From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

I'm beginning to think I saw a different movie from the rest of you
guys.  I thought the Queen had a grip on Ripley's specially designed
high-top Reebok, and that the shoe slipped off.  I do agree that
there seems to be a weird mass-to-strength ratio--we all assume the
aliens must be heavy because they are so strong.  In the latest TIME
photos, however, the aliens look like wire sculptures.  They have an
enviable muscle-to-fat ratio :-).  And as far as what was pushing
the Queen out the lock--it's easy to think of it as gravity rather
than the escaping air.  Where did the "gravity field" end, do you
suppose?

Kimiye Tipton
Maitland, FL  USA
USENET: ihnp4!abfll!kimi

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 16:44:56 GMT
From: hound!rfg@caip.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*) - really Biomass

In Who Goes There and its most accurate film version, THe Thing
(II), the biomass of "the thing" was bounded by the biomass of
whatever was "taken over." A big 'un could split into little ones,
or little ones could join together to form a big 'un. I think the
biomass problem was handled very well in these stories. In the James
Arness version (the Thing (I)), I don't recall any violations
either. The thing in the ice <was> the biomass for James Arness. The
little ones he was growing from seed. There were no others.  In
Alien there was pretty rapid growth, perhaps but two outs: 1) As I
recall the time scale was rather vague.  2) Biomass could have come
from lots of places if there was time to assimilate it ...tanks of
who knows what were all over the place.

Dick Grantges
hound!rfg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1619-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #221
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 3 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 221

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bester & Biggle & Perry &
                         Footfall & Myths,
                 Films - Books into Films,
                 Television - The Tomorrow People & 
                         Star Trek (3 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Crosshatch Generators

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 19:05:36 GMT
From: thome@rochester.ARPA (Mike Thome)
Subject: The Demolished Man

On (re)reading Bester's _The_Demolished_Man_, I noticed that the
cover said, "Soon to be a major motion picture."...  Does anyone
know if this ever happened?  If so, how 'bout the
director/company/actors involved (maybe even a review)?

To help out, the story revolves around a man who tries to get away
with murder in a world where a significant fraction of the
population is telepathic (including the inspector in charge of the
case).

tnx,
Mike Thome
thome@rochester
...!{allegra,decvax}!rochester!thome

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 18:46:17 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Lloyd Biggle

   is one of my favorite writers; _All the Colors of Darkness_,
_Watchers of the Dark_, and _This Darkening Universe_ are the Jan
Darzek triplet, which play some interesting changes on detective
stories. (I can't imagine translating any of them under the title
_War of the Ghosts_, but stranger things have happened....)  Biggle
is a musicology professor, so his work frequently invokes musical
themes (as in _The Still Small Voice of Trumpets_). Also
particularly recommended is _Monument_, expanded from a story in
_Astounding_---not immortal SF but very well done. He has two
collections I can think of offhand: _The Rule of the Door (and other
Fanciful Regulations)_, and _The Metallic Muse_ (specifically SF
about the arts). I think he also wrote "And Madly Teach", an
excellent ifthisgoeson about public education.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 22:08:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett)
Subject: Steve Perry's Matador Trilogy

Just finished the second of the the Matador trilogy by Steve Perry.
The books are:

   The Man Who Never Missed
   Matadora
   The Machiavelli Interface

The third book was just published (July 86 in softcover).  These
aren't 'classics', but they're certainly good enough to be
recommended.

NOT REALLY A SPOILER PLOT SUMMARY:

The Confederation rules the galaxy (a very small part of it anyway,
about 86 star systems, or something like that).  The Confederation
is ruthless in stamping out rebellion (on one planet, they land and
blow away (with super-automatic rifles) millions and millions of
unarmed people).  During one of these escapades, the Hero, a soldier
of the Confederation experiences a moment of 'enlightenment' during
the heat of the battle, and simply walks away.  He has realized that
the Confederation is Evil and must fall.  But, he must avoid a
bloody revolution in causing its downfall, or what replaces it will
be just as bad.

END OF NOT REALLY A SPOILER PLOT SUMMARY.

I admit, this isn't the most original of plots.  There's lots of
martial arts stuff.  However, the characterizations are interesting,
trying to delve into the psycology of the characters and why they do
what they do.  This is the saving grace of the books.  At hardcover
prices, I wouldn't be able to recomment them, but in paperback, a
good fun read.  If the Science Fiction Book Club puts them together
into a single volume, a definite buy.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 19:51:12 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Footfall

jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes:
>Question.  Early on, one of the people who spots the ship is a
>"chap named Tom Duff, a computer type" at Kitt Peak observatory.
>Considering the name-dropping in Footfall, might this be a ref-
>erence to the Unix Graphics Tom Duff, of NYIT/Lucas/Bell Labs?

   I doubt it. DUFF is a special term used among SF fans. It means
Down Under Fan Fund. I am not entirely sure what it is for, but we
have occasional auctions at the LA Science-Fantasy Society meetings
to raise money for it. I suspect that this is what is actually being
referenced.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 18:36:41 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: recycled myths

>Does anyone else feel the distaste I do for stories which (through
>the artifice of time travel or something equally unlikely) use
>modern characters to 'explain' a myth?

I think it was Ben Bova who listed this stunt, under the general
term "tomato surprise story", among the types of stories he
specifically DIDN'T want to see any more of. (In VIEWPOINT, a
collection of his editorials (mostly) published for his GoHship at
Boskone in 1977. Specific examples included the shipwrecked/castaway
couple turning out to be Adam and Eve and the nova turning out to be
the Star of Bethlehem. This last was of course done by Arthur C.
Clarke ("The Star"); a point Bova didn't bother to make is that if
you're good enough you can break any of the ]rules[, but most
writers make the mistake of building the story around the surprise
instead of using it as background to a real plot.)

>Robert Silverberg, whose work I often admire, has been playing
>around with Gilgamesh recently, for example featuring him as a
>character in a story for the 'Writers (sp?) in Hell' series.

I suspect Gilgamesh fascinates SF writers because it's the very
oldest piece of writing that can possibly be called SF. Bob Tucker
wrote a mediocre (i.e., OK for Tucker) novel about a Gilbert Nash,
who was the basis for Gilgamesh and who is hanging around Oak Ridge
hoping to get what he needs to get home.
   BTW, I love the typo "Writers in Hell" (I guess you're referring
to "Heroes in Hell"?)---it brings up a number of interesting
images....

CHip (Chip Hitchcock)
ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM
uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 05:51:12 GMT
From: mecc!sewilco@caip.rutgers.edu (Scot E. Wilcoxon)
Subject: Re: books into films

Well, if you want quantity and variety I suggest Smith's "Lensman".
Mental, beam, flying, and other effects needed.  Sheer scale of the
needed effects probably still makes it impossible.  I suppose they
could start with the first books and worry later about how to show
galactic fleet maneuvers and alternate universes.  Or did you want
something with a real plot?

(I'd like to see the steel crashcycle traffic scenes in Omnivision
:-)

Scot E. Wilcoxon
Minn Ed Comp Corp
{quest,dicome,meccts}!mecc!sewilco
{{caip!meccts},ihnp4,philabs}!mecc!sewilco
45 03 N  93 08 W (612)481-3507

------------------------------

Date: TUESDAY 07/29/86 13:28:37 PST
From: 7GMADISO  <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: The Tomorrow People

This British SF series was mentioned a while back.  If anyone is
interested, here is an episode guide and cast list I have
compiled.

                 The Tomorrow People Episode Guide
The Slaves Of Jedikiah
     5 untitled episodes

The Medusa Strain
     4 untitled episodes

The Vanishing Earth
     4 untitled episodes

The Blue And The Green
     1) An Apple For The Teacher
     2) A Changing Picture
     3) The Trojan Horse
     4) Cuckoo In The Nest
     5) The Swarming Season

A Rift In Time
     1) A Vase Of Mystery
     2) Turn Of The Thumb
     3) From Little Acorns...
     4) Rise Of The Roman Empire

The Doomsday Men
     1) Dressed To Kill
     2) The Burning Sword
     3) Run Rabbit Run
     4) The Shuttlecock

Secret Weapon
     1) Lost & Found
     2) Not Quite A Sleeping Beauty
     3) Whose Side Are You On, Professor
     4) A Present From Russia

Worlds Away
     1) Secret Of The Pyramid
     2) Hound Of The Night
     3) More For The Burning

A Man For Emily
     1) The Fastest Gun
     2) Here We Go Round The Doozlum
     3) Shotgun Wedding

The Revenge Of Jedikiah
     1) Curse Of The Mummy's Tomb
     2) Last Chance
     3) Farewell Performance

One Law
     1) One Law For The Poor
     2) Another For The Rich
     3) Which Prohibits Them Equally From Stealing Bread

Into The Unknown
     1) The Visitor
     2) The Father-Ship
     3) The Tunnel
     4) The Circle

The Dirtiest Business
     1) A Spy Is Born
     2) A Spy Dies...

A Much Needed Holiday
     1) Spilled Porridge
     2) Just Desserts

The Heart Of Sogguth
     1) Beat The Drum
     2) Devil In Disguise

The Lost Gods
     1) Flight Of Fancy
     2) Life Before Death

Hitler's Last Secret
     1) Men Like Rats
     2) Seeds Of Destruction

The Thargon Menace
     1) Unexpected Guests
     2) Playing With Fire

Castle Of Fear
     1) Ghosts And Monsters
     2) Fighting Spirit

Achilles Heel
     1) A Room At The Inn
     2) Everything To Lose

The Living Skins
     1) A Harmless Fashion
     2) Cold War

War Of The Empires
     1) Close Encounter
     2) Contact!
     3) Standing Alone
     4) All In The Mind

                  The Tomorrow People Cast List

Tim/Timus/Tikno .................................... Phillip Gilbert
John ................................................ Nicholas Young
Carol ............................................... Sammie Winmill
Kenny ............................................... Stephen Salmon
Steven ........................................ Peter Vaughan-Clarke
Peter .............................................. Richard Speight
Elizabeth .......................................... Elizabeth Adare
Tyso ................................................. Dean Lawrence
Tricia ................................................ Ann Curthoys
Michael ............................................ Michael Holoway
Hsui Tai ............................................... Misako Koba
Andrew ................................................ Nigel Rhodes
Jedikiah .............................. Roger Bizley/Francis DeWolff
Ginge Harding ..................................... Michael Standing
Lefty .................................................. Derek Crewe
Chris Harding ................................. Christopher Chittell
Professor Cawston .................................... Bryan Stanion
Evergreen .............................................. Denise Cook
Bruce Forbes ......................................... Dominic Allan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 18:49:02 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Trek recycling (what to...)

"Spaceships have longer lives than the people who man them." (A.
Bertram Chandler, who ought to know, in "Planet of Ill Repute".) Of
course, sabotage is another matter, but a series about the life of a
ship over generations of crews could give lots of room, rather like
the "Menagerie" frame to "The Cage".

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1986  13:46 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek

   It seems to me there are two problems:

   1.  A lot of people want to see Kirk, Spock, et al, forever,
   2.  The actors are all getting too old to keep it up, and
       want to do other things as well.

   Therefore, the obvious solution is to have an episode entitled,
"The TARDIS Factor," (or, from the BBC viewpoint, "Doctor Who and
the Starship Enterprise") in which the Doctor appears on the bridge
of the Enterprise and ends up regenerating everyone.  This way, we
can have all new actors playing everyone's favorite characters, and
everyone will be happy. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 22:33:08 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters

>I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST
>characters being the center of "ST."

Don't be.  I would guess that the majority of people think of Star
Trek as a collection of the most prominent character quirks of its
personalities: Spock's neck pinch and ears, Kirk's obsession with
command and his incessant love affairs (my sister once claimed he
fell in love every episode: demonstrably false, but that was the
impression made), and a general impression that all competent space
engineers are Scots.  The deeper and more important components you
mention are unknown or simply uninteresting to the greater number of
people.

>. . . If any one thing is the center, it's the Enterprise, which is
>why I felt so cheated when they destroyed it, but that's another
>story.

I'd be interested to hear in what way(s) you think of it as the
centre.  Personally I regretted that they destroyed that pretty new
design: the one from the series now looks clunky and angular to me.
The new one reminds me very much of a swan with wings half-upraised.
But I regretted much more that such a monumental action was taken in
the cause of such a minor film.  ST III was the slowest and least
interesting of all three so far.  No particular theme, and no
particular contribution; in fact, it seemed primarily to be diluting
ST II's contributions.  ST I was Spock's film (Veger was his example
and warning: "This could happen to you if you don't admit the worth
of emotions"), ST II was Kirk's.  ST III was an appendix to ST II,
with delusions of grandeur and empty self-righteousness ( "How many
people have died for your impatience?"  Answer: none.  Khan killed
them in his mania for revenge.  Genesis, protomatter and all,
provided the refugees from Regulus with a haven).

And for an appendix, they destroyed the whole ship.  Not even
logically, by using the antimatter in the warp generators, which
would have done the job instantly, but by a long series of small
explosions.

>I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH, and
>only make the series stronger.

Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that.  Mostly, it
needs M*A*S*H's writers.  They proved that it is in fact physically
possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing.  Star Trek
occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its
writing: but that wasn't difficult.  Frequently it didn't.

But I certainly agree that it is possible to bring in new and
likeable characters if it is properly done.  M*A*S*H has done it.
Doctor Who does it on an almost regular basis.  And it would be nice
to see the current films relying less on sentiment for "old
friends", and more on solid personalities.

>I WANT to see a new Star Trek with the same setting, background,
>the same "to boldly go" theme, but with new people.  Let's have
>another strong Captain, another fascinating alien, some new
>personality types.  Saavik was a great addition, as far as she
>went.  We need more new people like her.

My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course.  It's
possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see
that coming for ST.  Unless they can do something significant with a
new series, I wouldn't even bother trying.

However, I would really like to see Saavik properly developed.
Hopefully Kirstee Allie has by now fired the agent who lost her the
part for ST III.  With no discourtesy intended to Robin Curtis, I
find Ms. Allie much more convincing in the part.  As a
Romulan/Vulcan mix, Saavik is unique on the show, and worth
exploring.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 23:02:17 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Crosshatch generator
To: utastro!tmca@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)

>I don't know what a crosshatch generator is either, but I'll lay
>odds on it being future-speak, sf jargon.

  A crosshatch generator is a device that produces a crosshatch
pattern on a color TV screen for the purpose of aligning the colors.
It could be considered a distant ancestor to video games.
  Now, can we please go back to discussing books and magazines
instead of music videos?

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 86 1648-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 3 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 222

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 02:45:45 GMT
From: ukma!sean@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>Wrong.  Newton's Third Law clearly states: "For every action, there
>is an equal and opposite reaction."  If your theory were true, then
>rockets would not be able to function in space ("Nothing to push
>against, therefore no thrust").  As long as the hovering jets can
>fire, then it will hover, even if they were in a vacuum.

Aha!  Mostly right, but not completely.  There is such a thing as
ground effect that does assist lift when a craft is close to the
surface of the ground.  For example, it's much easier for a
helicopter to take off from a grass field than a concrete one simply
due to the difference in the ground effect.

Now, on the other hand, I doubt if the guy who he is referring to
was thinking about ground effect when he posted his article.  We'll
concede that the other guy didn't know what he was talking about...

Sean Casey
University of Kentucky
Lexington, Kentucky
UUCP: cbosgd!ukma!sean
CSNET: sean@uky.csnet
ARPA: ukma!sean@anl-mcs.arpa
BITNET: sean@ukma.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 04:11:10 GMT
From: sun!falk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

> Which is something that bugs me a little about Aliens.  Why would
> The Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these
> aliens on it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to
> try to pick them up?  Why did it suddenly drop the whole project
> of getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years
> later?

I assumed that after the first mission failed, the people
responsible for it had the whole thing hushed up.  After 30 years,
it was forgotten.  When Burke heard Ripley's report, he got the same
bright idea that some predecessor had had half a century earlier and
sent the colonists to go investigate.

ed falk, sun microsystems
falk@sun.com
sun!falk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 86 21:44:34 GMT
From: usc-oberon!spencer@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Spencer)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

> The reason she warned about the "thermal converters" was that
> there was a risk of starting a meltdown.  Vasquez brought her own
> bullets and used them with the result that the meltdown started
> just as Ripley warned.  Once the reaction was started, it hardly
> mattered that Ripley fired off a few more rounds.

Wait a minute, here!  The reason that the meltdown started was *not*
because the marine with the big shoulders fired off a couple of
rounds, it was specified (by Hicks, I believe) that it was the ship
crashing into the reactor that had caused the inevitable meltdown.

Aren't we having fun? I have never seen so much net mail about one
subject!

Randal Spencer
DEC, {amiga} Consulting
University of Southern California
phone: (213) 743-5363
Arpa:Spencer@USC-ECL,USC-Oberon
Bitnet:Spencer@USCVAXQ
UUCP:...!{{decvax,ucbvax}!sdcrdcf,scgvaxd,smeagol}!usc-oberon!spencer
Home: 937 N. Beverly Glen Bl. Bel Air California 90077
(213) 470-0428

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Jul 86 11:49:42-PDT
From: Bob Sheleg <SHELEG@SRI-WARBUCKS.ARPA>
Subject: Alien/Aliens intelligence

>...though I was annoyed by the alien's ability to FIND them.  In
>the first movie they always walked into the Alien.

>The Aliens are semi-intelligent...

Until reading contrary opinions here, I thought it was obvious that
the Alien was intelligent and further had some kind of psychic
ability, enabling it to know where the people were AND what they
were doing.  It seemed to enjoy terrifying the humans, and played a
kind of cat and mouse game with them.  I'm on a bit of shaky ground
here, because it's been a couple of years since I've seen Alien. But
if memory serves, the creature cuts off Sigourney's...sorry,
Ripley's escape AFTER she arms the ships self-destruct (love that
name Sigourney.) and does so late enough for Ripley to just miss
being able to disarm it.  Then the alien itself heads out to hide in
the escape pod.  All planned if you ask me.  Even more likely: It
actually intended for Ripley to disarm it, but when she blew it, the
Alien retreated to the escape pod as its only recourse.  In fact, I
assumed the point was that its malevolence was its weakness.  Its
ever-present sadistic streak, allowing the people to live as long as
they did, standing around bearing its teeth and drooling when it
should be pouncing, etc.) is what finally did it in.  It seems it
only took captain Dallas (when it could have taken/killed any/all of
them) to scare the space-mix out of everyone.  After all, he was
armed, and all aboard thought of him as the hunter, not the prey.
Sort of like: That was your best shot, and it was just a snack to
me!  Time to start sweating, future entrees!

Wasn't there a line something like:
       Its toughness is only exceeded by its nastiness.

I don't think it was at all clear in the original that the creature
even minded the flamethrower. (Wasn't there a Star Trek episode
where some being actually drew some kind of sustenance from people's
fear?)  Anyway, I thought the point was clear that no creature that
frivolous was any match for Ripley's hard-headed pragmatism and
heroic sense of self-preservation.

I certainly agree with the suggestions that these new aliens are a
good deal whimpier than the original, what with bullets killing them
and all.  Did anyone put a stopwatch on how long the original alien
was able to hold on to that engine even AFTER Ripley had fired it
up??  Anything you could kill with a shotgun would've been vaporized
faster than the eye could see.

Bob Sheleg

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 00:39:44 GMT
From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes:
>I thought there were several large logical holes in Aliens.
>
>2) PLOT SLIP-UP - The colonists haven't seen or heard anything
>about creatures.  But when Ripley shows up, they have a full-blown
>research project going on the Alien biology. They even have samples
>in jars of live critters (which must have stayed alive for YEARS,
>see above). So they have been studying them for some time, WITHOUT
>TELLING EARTH ?? A Watergate-style coverup by the company ??
>C'mon....

    Burke sent them to investigate the crashed ship, without telling
anyone else, so he could get credit for obtaining the creatures--he
admits this in the scene where he is alone with Ripley.

>3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
>for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
>Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
>a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

    This was a mistake on the Marines' part, but remember they
didn't really believe Ripley's story until they found the creatures
and fought the first wave which wiped out half their forces.

>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

    No they didn't.  The pilot of the crashed ship was hosting one
of the aliens (his chest had exploded) and his ship was full of
their eggs, but the ship was from another alien culture altogether.

Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
or {boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 23:18:27 GMT
From: oliveb!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor

From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
>  Now a melt down of a plant the size of the one in the movie would
>do serious damage to the immediate area but there would be no
>mushroom cloud.

They said, in the movie, that it was a fusion system.  I would
assume that it's use (in converting the atmosphere of a an entire
planet) would differ from a straight old electric generating plant
as well.  Judging by the amount of stray lightning-bolts flying
around the place, there seemed to be a bit more energy in operation
than a normal water-boiler!

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 22:33:18 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens

SPOILERS (after a fashion)

Does Ripley now qualify for a Class-1 Loader License?

On the basis of the new movie, I find that I have to modify my Alien
Life Cycle theory only slightly.  I think I mentioned that there
needed to be an egg-laying form.  Umm.  Some names for the forms.
Egg.  Analyzer.  Embryo.  Warrior.  Queen.  Life cycle goes

        Egg==>analyzer==> |
                          |>Embryo==>Warrior==>Queen==>Egg
        Warrior=========> |

where an embryo is implanted either by a warrior or by the analyzer
form.  (Note that the warrior==>embryo connection is only implied by
the book Alien (the scene where Ripley meets Dallas with an embryo
implanted)).

Aliens seem to sense/communicate through some system unknown to man.
They can see us when we can't see them.

Although any warrior can grow into a queen, only one queen needs to
exist per area.  The presence of a queen probably inhibits other
warriors from making the transformation.

REAL SPOILERS

It seems unlikely that Newt is infected--it seems that only one
embryo can grow in a body, and the analyzer form from an egg was
heading in her direction.  It would be inefficient for it to do so
if Newt was already carrying.

How did Burke get Ripley's gun from her?  As I see the scenario, he
had to (1).  sneak into the room.  (2).  steal the gun.  (3).
release the analyzers (not an entirely safe thing to do).  Those
doors opening and closing make a lot of noise--why didn't Ripley
wake up (I don't buy the dead tired excuse-- it seems she should
have been so hyped that anything would have woken her)?  I guess
that Burke could have been fast and lucky.  He opens the door,
dashes in, grabs the gun, rips the top off of the containers and
dashes out.  the analyzers leave their containers almost immediately
after Burke removes the lids--Burke is lucky that it takes them a
little bit to get out.  Ripley is awoken by the simultaneous closing
of the door and crashing of the containment vessels.  But it seems a
bit shakey to me.  And Burke was back at the cameras when Ripley was
trying to get out.  Perhaps I forgot something.  Anyone remember
better?

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 18:46:29 GMT
From: ethos!jay@caip.rutgers.edu (Jay Denebeim)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

   Now, I only saw the movie once, but in the Campbell story both
versions of The Thing were taken from, Who Goes There, the thing was
a single celled organisim.  The people/dogs/seagulls, whatever were
digested cell by cell, the thing's cells assimilated the genetic
information contained in the eatee.  That was one of the things that
was the most horrific about the book.  The victims didn't even
realize they were thing food untill the thing-cells wanted to do
something the ex-human didn't want to do. Really nervewraking, check
out the original in the greatest SF vol 2A.  Jay

Jay Denebeim
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!rti-sel!ethos!jay
BBS:   Deep Thought, ZNode #42 300/1200/2400 919-471-6436

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 13:42:28 GMT
From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5) writes:
>But The Company *did* know about the aliens.  In the first movie
>they purposely rerouted the Nostromo to pick one of them up.  Which
>is something that bugs me a little about _Aliens_.  Why would The
>Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these aliens on
>it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to try to
>pick them up?  Why did it suddenly drop the whole project of
>getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years later?

The way I interpreted the events of the first movie , was that the
Nostromo was passing close to the planet when the computer picked up
what it interpreted as a distress beacon.  Space law apparently
required them to respond to it.  The problems started because the
company had secretly programmed Ash to bring back anything that was
found that would be of economic value to the company (in this case
the bio-weapons division), without regard to the risk this might
entail for the crew.  So although the company was responsible for
the Nostromo diaster, it didn't know about the aliens until Ripley
returned and gave her report to Burke, who ordered the people of the
terraforming colony to explore the derilict.

A better question to ask is why no one else picked up the beacon for
the next 57 years?  If interstellar travel was done as a series of
hyperspace jumps, then maybe no one else 'broke out' near enough to
the planet to receive the beacon, and that the power source gave out
by the time the colony was established 37 years later.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 22:59:25 GMT
From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor

From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
> I'm not sure who wrote it but someone was questioning the small
> explosions occuring during Ripley's foray into the nest.  I work
> at a nuclear plant and may be able to shed some light.
>
> >One *BIG* argument that I have with the movie that unless they
> supposedly don't use the same fuel that is now used it is *NEXT*
> *TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode as they had it.

Ray,
I specifically remember them referring to a FUSION power plant.  Who
knows what it would consist of and how it could operate.  (Yeah, I
know: there's probably no way in hell such a plant would be built if
it could actually go chain-reaction fusion by any such malfunction.
But then...the company is cheap and who's to criticize how they go
about opening up a planet.  They may take the risks of a super-power
plant with inherent dangers just to minimize costs.  The rats!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 86 19:35:20 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: good command strategy

> 3) Strategy slip-up - Would you take EVERYONE off your spaceship
> for a ground mission ?? Leaving your backup shuttle up there ?
> Making replenishment of supplies a round-trip operation instead of
> a one-way operation ?? Cap'n Kirk would never have approved.

Captain Kirk.  Ah yes.  I remember him.  The one who would routinely
take as a scouting party into hostile territory most or all of his
command crew; or leave his heavily armoured security detail behind
while he, the most senior officer present, walked into danger with
perhaps as much as a phaser in his hand (ST III comes to mind).
Though occasionally, if he were foresighted enough to realise that
he and said party were going to be captured, he would leave his
chief engineer in command to sort it out.  Excuse me, what did you
say he'd never have approved?

A bit catty, perhaps, but couldn't you choose a slightly better
"paragon" than him?

I never saw "Alien", and from all the descriptions I heard of it, I
never wanted to.  I appreciate good horror films, but I can't stand
atrocity films -- icy fingers on the spine are one thing, a turned
stomach something else entirely.  So naturally, I wasn't very
delighted to hear it had a successor.

However, if the stream of good notices I've seen continues, perhaps
I'll have a look at "Aliens" after all.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Aug 86 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #223
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 223

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Biggle & Farmer & Palmer &
                         Erotic Sf & Celtic Myths,
                 Films - Bladerunner (2 msgs) &
                         The Flight of the Navigator,
                 Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) & 
                         The Prisoner,
                 Miscellaneous - The Word Duff & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 JUL 86 10:29-EST
From: Jason J. Lane   <JJL8733%RITVAXC.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Lloyd Biggle Jr.

Lloyd Biggle Jr. forgotten? Not at all! I've just finished a recent
(?)  work of his entitled _The_Whirligig_of_Time_ [1979] and thought
it was really well done. Another book of his I picked up at a garage
sale is _The_World_Menders_ [1971] which I will be reading very
shortly.

Jason
Rochester Institute of Technology
Bitnet,Earn,Netnorth : jjl8733 @ ritvaxc
ARPA : jjl8733%ritvaxc.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa
UUCP : ...!rochester!ritcv!jjl8733 (but I'm never here)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 04:05:20 GMT
From: watale!twmalaher@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Malaher)
Subject: Re: when will the riverworld series end?

simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) writes:
>Does anybody have any idea when the riverworld series (used to be
>trilogy...) by Farmer will end. I've been reading it for such a
>long time and would like an ending :-(

Well, I was at the Worldcon in Chicago (CHICON IV) a few years back,
and at that point _Gods_ hadn't come out yet.  Anyway, there was an
"interview" session with Farmer and he mentioned something about the
number seven being a nice number, and he thought he might pad a
couple of his series out to that number.  In fact he mentioned
_RiverWorld_ specifically.

Any other Worldcon types out there remember anything more specific?

Oh, by the way, you can try to mail stuff to me at watale, it's just
that I *know* that the address below (watdragon) will work, and I
*don't* know what watale's address is (yet).  I'd love to get some
mail...

Tom Malaher
CSNET :twmalaher%watdragon@waterloo.CSNET
ARPA  :twmalaher%watdragon%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA
UUCP  :...!{allegra|clyde|linus|utzoo|inhp4|decvax}
        !watmath!watdragon!twmalaher
MAIL  :Department of Mechanical Engineering; University of Waterloo;
       Waterloo, ON; N2L 3G1

------------------------------

Date: 30 July 1986, 20:14:49 EDT
From: "Brent T. Hailpern"  <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Palmer's Emergence

In contrast to an earlier opinion, "boring", I really enjoyed
_Emergence_.  It brought back memories of Heinlein in the good old
days.  The protagonist is interesting, the situation is novel and
changes many times in the story.  The ending was exciting, but a
little weak.  If you liked Heinlein's "Sixth Column" (changed name
to something else), "Podkayne" (sp?), "Farnham's Freehold", or
"Space Cadet" -- you will like _Emergence_.

Brent
bth@ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 23:47:45 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan)
Subject: Erotic Lit...

If you really want erotic sf try The Tides of Lust by Samuel Delany.
Definitely the most sex filled novel I have ever read.  For that
matter any Delany novel has quite a dose.

Bryan
UCD

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 19:19:55 GMT
From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher)
Subject: Re: Celtic myth references

Karen Christenson writes:
>There's the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Celtic myths.
>There's also a series of five juveniles (one won the Newberry) by
>Susan Cooper which have several references to Celtic myths.

There's also four books by Evangeline Walton about the Maginogion.
Try the fantasy section of the bookstore.  They're good.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 14:46:44 GMT
From: chabot@3d.dec.com
Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream
Subject: ...

> 3) Production values should be good to excellent.
>   BR is on the ball here.  Plain old good moviemaking is
>   important, although films like "Dark Star" are an interesting
>   exception.

I disagree: there are very obvious cables attached to the car,
especially noticeable when it's taking off.

I'm picky sometimes, but usually only on the third viewing of a
movie.  I'd been anxious to see this one for months and months--I
was eager for a good show.  Unfortunately, due to circumstances
beyond my control, I ended up in a seat in the next to the last row,
instead of my usual position plastered against the screen.  Even at
the end of one of those long bowling alleys of the modern movie
houses, I could plainly see cables supporting the car.  I loved the
cityscapes, but I hated to be disillusioned about a flying machine.
(And yes, I did see the cables on the second viewing.)

But even more than that, I was immensely disappointed in the plot,
having been a fan of Dick for years.  Perhaps I should not have
prep'ed so much by reading DADOES, but that was six months before
the release of BR.  It was more like Mike Hammer in the 21st Century
than a P K Dick story.

Perhaps because of its trite plot ending, it could be called a
"classic science fiction movie", but I wouldn't call it classic
science fiction.  My opinion of BR was that it was visually
interesting, intellectually boring, and morally inconsistent.

l s chabot

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 20:08:39 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream
Subject: ...

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
>I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this
>group, and it just doesn't measure up.  The following are important
>in a great SF classic:
>
>1) The premise should be at least reasonable
>   BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart.  In
>   a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the
>   Earth, why would this be done?  It makes sense for whoredroids,
>   but for mining robots?  The society depicted in BR would have
>   insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something.

This is a good point, but rather on the order of a nit.  In other
words, this is an easily overlooked point.  A great many SF books
and movies have larger holes in the premise than this, but still are
well regarded.

>   A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is
>   that the technology for complete duplication of human beings
>   (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the
>   time-frame described.

Maybe yes, maybe no.  Predicting the pace of technological progress
in a field is very difficult.  Things are quite likely to go a lot
faster or significantly slower than seems reasonable.

>5) If dialogue is an important part of the story it should be
>superb and entertaining.
>   Flat on the face for BR. The dialogue is miserable, campy and
>   boring.

Sorry you didn't like it.  I found it quite acceptable.

>8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal
>superbly.

I did.

Frank Adams
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 18:21:57 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR

                    THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Adults should enjoy this Disney-
     Norwegian co-production as much as the kids in the audience.
     It is a pleasant boy-and-his-saucer film with an acceptably
     high level of science fiction value.

     While Disney Films adult film of the summer, RUTHLESS PEOPLE,
is playing to sell-out audiences, they are releasing their
children's film, THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR, a film that old Walt
would have loved to make while he was alive--uh, with some minor
cleaning up of dialogue.  The film has the sense of wonder he had
with TWENTY THOUSAND LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA and failed to recapture
in later soft science fiction attempts.

     On July 4, 1978, David hears a noise in the woods.
Investigating, he falls into a ravine, picks himself up, and returns
home to find perfect strangers living in his house.  It seems it is
now 1986 and while he hasn't changed, the world around him certainly
has.  A nasty government agency-- unrealistically called NASA--wants
to know where a little boy can go for eight years without aging.
The boy is taken to a facility for interrogation and study.  This
happens to be the same facility to which an odd van-sized floating
object has recently been taken.

     THE FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR is no BLADERUNNER; it's a
children's film.  But it is a good children's film.  It doesn't talk
down to children, it doesn't have a cloying moral, it doesn't
misrepresent technology.  Like with SPACE CAMP, NASA does have cute
robots.  But FLIGHT's R.A.L.F. is quite within the range of current
technology.  It does little more than deliver mail.  I am less happy
with the film's making the space agency the heavy, but then so did
E.T. and STARMAN.  For a children's film, THE FLIGHT OF THE
NAVIGATOR did a reasonable job of entertaining the adults in the
audience.  Give it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 86 17:55:43 edt
From: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham)
Subject: Re: Star Trek and New Characters
Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.com, unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu

I agree that new characters should be introduced and kept. The
killing of david was a mistake. The older characters MUST be phased
out, and room made for new cast members. Paramount has capitalized
on the Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship and has done well.

However, the emphasis on Spock must end. Sure, the Spock character
is an excellent one, but continued emphasis on him will produce a
Series called "Spock Trek" and not "Star Trek".  With new
characters, the series will not be "chained down" by the
restrictions of Kirk and Spock, and it will allow the emphasis to
once again be shifted to exploration. On TV, exploration was the
central theme, with the relationship between the characters playing
an integral part of this exploration.  In the movies, when there was
exploration( STTMP) there was no character interplay, and when there
was interplay( II and III) there was no exploration.

Lets return to a combination of both

Chris Durham
ARPA: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: CD0V@CMUCCVMA
USENET/UUCP:{...seismo}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 20:15:52 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
>1.  A lot of people want to see Kirk, Spock, et al, forever,
>2.  The actors are all getting too old to keep it up, and
>    want to do other things as well.
>
>   Therefore, the obvious solution is to have an episode entitled,
>"The TARDIS Factor," (or, from the BBC viewpoint, "Doctor Who and
>the Starship Enterprise") in which the Doctor appears on the bridge
>of the Enterprise and ends up regenerating everyone.  This way, we
>can have all new actors playing everyone's favorite characters, and
>everyone will be happy. :-)

Or how about "Star Trek: The Early Years" in which we follow the
careers of the Enterprise crew before the start of the Enterprise's
five-year mission?  They could get younger actors who resemble the
main actors.  We'd get to see Spock's teddy bear, and Kirk meeting
the blood-sucking fog again for the first time.  I hope they get
someone who can act to play Kirk this time.  It would be especially
interesting because of all the different settings for the stories.
In the original series we didn't get to see much of the Federation,
since the Enterprise was usually out "where no man has gone before."

Andre Guirard, ME
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 19:52:20 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>Or how about "Star Trek: The Early Years" in which we follow the
>careers of the Enterprise crew before the start of the Enterprise's
>five-year mission?  They could get younger actors who resemble the
>main actors.

Terrific idea.  Seriously!  It'd be nice, for a change, to see a
Kirk that DOESN'T have all the answers!  The only problem I can
imagine is that no two of them worked together previous to the
Enterprise.  You _could_ have the rotating shows that everyone is
talking about: one week, Kirk on the Farragut (sp?); Spock on the
Enterprise, or what ever he was on before that; etc.  Unfortunately,
I think the Enterprise was Chekov's first assignment: Where would we
be without Koenig's weekly, "AAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!" ;-)

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 20:54:25 GMT
From: mtune!jhc@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Clark)
Subject: The Prisoner's car colour

Rather than simple 'dark green', wasn't the Lotus Super Seven
actually BRG (British Racing Green) with a Bright Yellow snout?

Caterham still use a publicity photo of Patrick McGoohan and KAR120C
in their advertising - look in Motor Sport or Thoroughbred and
Classic Car.

From memory, the big black car is a Vanden Plas Landaulette, still
much favoured by embassies and high officials in London. They
changed the styling about 1970 though - the one in the series is the
older shape. This model is one of only three to use the Jaguar V12
engine (the others being the XJ12 and the XJS).

Jonathan Clark
[NAC,attmail]!mtune!jhc

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 14:33:12 GMT
From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Footfall

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes:
>>
>>Question.  Early on, one of the people who spots the ship is a
>>"chap named Tom Duff, a computer type" at Kitt Peak observatory.
>>Considering the name-dropping in Footfall, might this be a ref-
>>erence to the Unix Graphics Tom Duff, of NYIT/Lucas/Bell Labs?
>>
>       I doubt it. DUFF is a special term used among SF fans. It
>means Down Under Fan Fund. I am not entirely sure what it is for,
>but we have occasional auctions at the LA Science-Fantasy Society
>meetings to raise money for it. I suspect that this is what is
>actually being referenced.

The Down Under Fan Fund is a fund established to further fannish
foreign exchange: it helps foot the bill for a worthy Australian fan
to come over here for the Worldcon (selected by voting with your
$$), and in alternate years helps send one of us Yanks Down Under
for the Aussie national con (sorry, I forget the name).

Bob Halloran, Consultant
UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran                DDD: (201)251-7514
CSNet/ARPA: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu    ATTmail: RHALLORAN
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 21:15:15 GMT
From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes:
>  As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these
>august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending something
>back, what (or who) would it be?

Another question is: If you were in the future, knew about the
experiment, and had the equipment to send some material or
information back to the experimenters, WHY WOULD YOU SEND ANYTHING?
(Douglas Adams is right: English grammar can't handle time travel.)

It seems that in performing the experiment, we're relying on someone
in the future not merely to be able to help us, but also to want to
help us.  Is this a reasonable assumption?  Maybe.  They might be
interested in helping fellow scientists, etc., but on the other
hand, what's in it for them?  Sounds like a story (or three) in here
somewhere.

Alex
...!mcnc!unc!melnick

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Aug 86 0902-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #224
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 224

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 00:45:55 GMT
From: apple!tomas@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Taylor)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes:
>...terraforming colony to explore the derilict.
>
>A better question to ask is why no one else picked up the beacon
>for the next 57 years?  If interstellar travel was done as a series
>of hyperspace jumps, then maybe no one else 'broke out' near enough
>to the planet to receive the beacon, and that the power source gave
>out by the time the colony was established 37 years later.

   Remember the first movie? That old ship looked about a million
years old.  Even the huge alien with the busted out chest seemed
petrified.  The beacon must have been going thousands of years.  I
doubt it would have given out in just 37 more years.

Tom Taylor
Development Systems Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 00:01 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens

I don't recall if anybody has mentioned it, but it strikes me as
possible that the Aliens are a biological form of a Doomsday Weapon
(you know, the kind you use to make sure that if somebody is going
to take you out, he goes with you).  If the aliens were biologically
constructed, then the usual mechanisms for sexual reproduction that
result in increasing genetic diversity are not required.  The aliens
can all be genetically identical.  A queen alien can lay eggs
without mating and all eggs would be progrgammed identically.

A refinement of this would allow the knowledge base of the aliens to
be programmed by the queen so that racial memory (built into
biological ROM) would be possible.

There is a book that I have heard of but been unable to find a copy
of called WHY BIG, FIERCE ANIMALS ARE RARE.  I expect that any
ecosystem where the alien organism is introduced would be wiped out;
I don't think the aliens could have evolved--I think they had to
have been designed.  (Of course, they might have a fight on their
hands if they were introduced into Harrison's Deathworld or Foster's
Midworld :-)

David S.  Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 18:53:08 GMT
From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, the Company)

chrisa@tekig5.UUCP (Chris Andersen) writes:
>dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) writes:
>>Maybe the Compnay KNEW what was going on, but refused to
>>(publically?) admit it. The android's programming in the orig. and
>>a few other things could easily lead us to this conclusion.
>
>But The Company *did* know about the aliens.  In the first movie
>they purposely rerouted the Nostromo to pick one of them up.  Which
>is something that bugs me a little about _Aliens_.  Why would The
>Company place a colony on a planet that it knew had these aliens on
>it; furthermore, why didn't they send another mission to try to
>pick them up?  Why did it suddenly drop the whole project of
>getting the aliens until Burke picked it up again 57 years later?

I think it is more than possible that the Company did *not* know
about the Aliens, because the people that sent the Nostromo out to
LB-426 probably filed their part in it to /dev/null.  Look at it
this way: You're up for promotion and/or a salary increase, and your
supervisors ask "so, whatever happened to the Nostromo and it's ~$42
million (adjusted) refinery, that you sent off to LB-426?"  Not the
question you really want asked.  All you know is that the ship
disappeared, never sent any messages, and there were no known
survivors.  Write it off.  End result: 57 years later someone as
greedy as you (Burke) sends the colonists off to find the derelict
after listening to a potentially hysterical survivor from the
Nostromo.

just my 2 cents (adjusted) at rationalization.

Eric J. Bivona
USNET: {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb
ARPA:  ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET: ericb@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 19:34:49 GMT
From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

kimi@ides.UUCP writes:
>And as far as what was pushing the Queen out the lock--it's easy to
>think of it as gravity rather than the escaping air.  Where did the
>"gravity field" end, do you suppose?

There is certainly artificial gravity at work on the ships.  On the
flight deck it is towards the floor, but in the lock it was to the
ladder on the wall, or so it seemed when Ripley jumped to the wall.
The field was probably much less at the door, where the Queen was
pinned by the loader.  This would also help to explain why Ripley
could hang on while the lock was open, at least until a lot of the
atmosphere was vented.  Must be weird to climb over the edge of the
lock onto the flight deck though.

Eric J. Bivona
USNET: {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb
ARPA:  ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET: ericb@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 21:37:10 GMT
From: srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: *ALIENS* (Spoilers)

Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been
pretty lame.  And why are they all cast as "refutations"?  I'm not
Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply
to argue.

The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either
postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie or
refer to the book.  Personally I feel that the movie has to stand on
its own and be internally consistent without reference to a "book"
that is written after the movie and with a conscious intention to
explain away problems in the movie.

And as far as making up explanations - like "people get sick in
hyperspace so they need to be put in freeze" - well, I guess that's
the business of sf and we can all do that all night.  Doesn't make
the holes in the movie go away, though.

As for the individual explanations:

* Deep Sleep.  There's little or no indication in the movie that the
ships have hyperspace capability.  Surely the escape pod from the
Nostromo didn't, and it had the same kind of sleep pod.  If you are
willing to grant hyper- space, though, you can make up all sorts of
reasons for using deep sleep (see above).

As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space,
I see several objections.  First of all, in a deep space craft you
can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like
oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the
battle structure.  You just hook a container of LOX on the outside.
Second, why waste all the time during the journey?  Why not use the
time to prepare for the coming mission?  This is an emergency
rescue, after all.  Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in
using deep sleep.  Would you be willing to let yourself be
frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days?  Not me.

* Mumblety-Peg.  Urrgh.  Everyone replied that "Bishop was fully
aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson".  Not so!  Bishop cut his
own hand, remember?  Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand,
remember?  Therefore, Bishop could very well have cut Hudson's hand,
right?  Therefore, Bishop should never have played the game in the
first place, right?

* Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters.  Yes, I was aware that
the "thermal overload" was already underway.  That DOESN'T mean that
it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte blanche
fashion.  If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor that's going
to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last thing I'm
going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten the
process.

* Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform.  Justify this all you want.
Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at
this point.  It makes no sense at all.  There is too much wind
inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform?
Yeah, THAT seems likely.  And I said hover NEAR the platform, not
OVER the platform.  I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and
I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the
platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left
the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie-
making) to have the craft hovering out of sight.  And how would
Bishop know when to return?  And why didn't he return immediately?

* Cheap Movie Making.  Ripley's dream.  Need I say more?  How cheap
can you get?

* Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle.  Please don't blame
this on the incompetent commander.  He wasn't even there.  At any
rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after
they've survived a few missions.  They have protocols beaten in to
them, and they follow them.  In a large part, that's what makes them
survive.

The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so
obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs.  Just
look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used:

* If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, it's a wipeout.  They
wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc.  To
keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores Ripley's
warning.  Why?  Here's a trusted (in command of a multi-billion
dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57 year space trip
to bring a warning to the Company.  Can't the Company at least try
to confirm her story?  No, because that means the marines would go
in prepared.  And what happened to the indications in the earlier
story that the Company knew about the Aliens in the first place?

* If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up
the place and the story's over.  So the marines do two *idiotic*
things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and
take everyone to the surface.

* It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair
unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build their
lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear reactor
(why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more
appropriately.

* In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly
sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines
would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics.  And even if they were once,
wouldn't they catch on sooner or later?

* In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we
make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna.  First
of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a beacon on
automatic.  Second, if we can build an android indistinguishable
from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI personality on board
the orbital ship?  Third, why does Bishop have to pilot using a
keyboard and joystick?  He doesn't have a remote plug or radio link
built in?

And this just goes on and on.  It's like a cheap horror film where
sixteen people have been killed in the basement and the heroine
decides to check it out in her nightgown and one flickering candle.
At some point you have to say "C'mon!".  I didn't think *Alien* was
too bad in this respect, but *Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated
movie-making.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 06:34:29 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

Strategy slipup: the military commander of the mission is not
exactly what I would call a competent individual.  He clearly states
that the mission will go "by the book," and perhaps he failed to
read the right page.  However, their strategy was really bad.  Not
only in reference to the ship, but also on the ground.  Putting
everyone in the nest under the reactor at the same time was stupid.
Not pulling out was stupid.  Typical of the military, of any time
period.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 19:00:55 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*serious spoilers*)

srt@ucla-cs.ARPA (Scott Turner) writes:
>Just a couple of errors I noticed in ALIENS:

I just saw this, and I disagree with some (but not all!) of your
points.  Here goes:

>What kind of Marines leave the ramp to a landing vehicle down in
>hostile territory?

Good point! Also, why was the other marine hanging around outside
the vehicle?  As I remember he finds the goo as he climbs the ramp.

>The android said the platform was too weak to support the landing
>craft so he had to circle it around.  But the landing craft was
>shown hovering.  Why not just hover off the platform?

He said he couldn't stay on the platform because 'things were
getting rough' or something like that - hovering near it would be
just as dangerous as staying on it.

>She was also pretty blithe about using the gun and the hand
>grenades underneath the "thermal converters" - something she'd
>warned others against earlier - which was presumably more dangerous
>now that the plant was about to blow sky-high.

The point about the reactor is that explosive bullets would rupture
the coolant lines (which is what happened in the first encounter to
initiate the reactor instability) - further use wouldn't make any
difference.

>Why doesn't she subject Hicks and the girl to some kind of bio-scan
>once they get back up in orbit to make sure they aren't carrying an
>Alien embryo (eg, "sequel blindness": More Aliens).

We know the girl wasn't infected - Ripley reached her just in time
to prevent it. Hicks we don't know about - but he's frozen so it can
wait until they get back - also a sequel possibility. Another is
that we don't see the queen die, and presumably she can withstand
space (she clung to the outside of the lander). She could fall back
to the planet, find the derelict ship and wait for the next load of
humans to infect.

>If the android is programmed with Asimov's laws, why does he try
>the mumbledy-peg game with Hudson's hand?

Because he knows he can do it without harming a human.

The main hole I think is that it seems too convenient that the
aliens are so well designed to use humans for their procreation...
is the humanoid shape likely to be common in the universe? I don't
know. Another big hole in Aliens is the I find it very hard to
believe that it would be possible to open both doors of an airlock
at once... even if it were, how long would the air in the cargo bay
last? (Presumably bay would automatically seal itself off from the
rest of the ship in a pressure drop).

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 19:09:36 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: ALIENS inconsistency ?

mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes:
>Okay, so the company (in ALIEN) diverts an oil-conversion plant to
>check out a potentially dangerous alien signal. (isn't that what
>all the special secret messages to Ash were ? and why he finally
>tried to kill Ripley in the first version ?)  So the Company sends
>them out to face this thing, and then they disappear for 57 years
>or so. No biggie.  When Ripley comes back, the company doesn't
>believe her ?  Wasn't the whole kicker of ALIEN that the company
>had set them up to get wasted ?
>
>Years later, the colony disappears, and the company is *surprised*?
>it doesn't make sense. and then they still don't believe her and
>only send a small party ?  even THE COMPANY isn't that dumb.

I thought the whole point was that the company wanted the whole
thing covered up and sought to discredit Ripley. Remember the
company actually sent the colonists there - in fact it was the very
Yuppie that organizes the rescue mission. HE knows all about the
aliens. For all we know, he sent the colonists there so that they
WOULD get infected. I don't think the company was surprised at all
when they colony disappears, although it IS rather a coincidence
that it happens just as Ripley shows up, and after the colonists
have been there 20 years! Oh well it's just a film after all, and a
very good one too!

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Aug 86 0942-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #225
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 225

Today's Topics:

                Books - Wolfe & Erotic SF (2 msgs),
                Films - Lensman & Maximum Overdrive &
                        Dr. Phibes,
                Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) & 
                        The Prisoner & Tripods,
                Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) &
                        WorldCon SFL Party

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Aug 86 07:19:37-CDT
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The recent discussions on Gene Wolfe and BotNS:

Talking with Gene at the ARCHON SFCon in St. Louis last weekend, he
said he has the FIFTH Volume of the BotNS TRILOGY #$%&* about ready
to come out - as he said - it's like breaking the sound barrier -
once you get past the boundary, it gets easier.  Anyway, the new
volume is "probably the last" and will be called _The Urth of the
New Sun_; Sevarian will have been on throne ten years, it skips his
reign as Autarch, and the book concerns his attempt to penetrate the
barrier between the universes and get a new sun for Urth, using a
ship called a SunJammer with a mass of ten thousand tonnes and one
hundred and fifty thousand spars and sails.  With his flair for the
descriptive phrase, it ought to be another extraordinary book.  By
the way, he pointed out in response to a question that he works very
hard at researching and checking the derivations of the words he
uses in BotNS.  It sometimes takes him two weeks to find just the
right work to to evoke the nuances he wants to express.  He seemed a
little abashed when he admitted that there are actually (GASP) two
mistakes he knows of in the first four volumes: Once a proofreader
missed a typo and they got Artello instead of Martello and once he
(Gene) made an obscure mistake which he doubts anyone will ever
notice.  Damn, I wish the rest of the authors and publishers were
that good - most of them don't seem to care!

See you all at WORLDCON!  I`m registered at the Marriot Friday
through Sunday nights, so leave a message and let`s get together.

Bill DeVaughan

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 17:30:25 GMT
From: houligan!dmasiell@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: sexy_sf

From: Marty Walsh  <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
>     Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites.  I
>have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add
>to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...)

A short story that sticks in my mind is "A Boy And His Dog" by (I
think) Harlan Ellison (my apologies if I am incorrect). The story
was subsequently made into a movie, but with most of the sex
removed.

An earlier response to the above also mentions "Venus on the Half
Shell" by Trout and Farmers Riverworld saga and "Blown". In fact
both books were written by Jose' Philip Farmer. "Venus on the Half
Shell" was a book mentioned several times in the Kurt Vonnegut book
"Sirens of Titan" (or was it Breakfast of Champions?). Upon reading
Vonneguts book Farmer was intrigued by the character Trout and
Trout's book, and received permission from Vonnegut to bring Venus
on the Half Shell to life, so to speak, writing as Kilgore Trout.

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: SF Erotica

I've been waiting for someone to post these, but nobody has...am I
the only one who's read them?

   The Love Machine (These Lawless Worlds #1), Pinnacle, 1984
   Scales of Justice (These Lawless Worlds #2), Pinnacle, 1984

by "Jarrod Comstock".  These books are sexy, decently written, have
appealing characters, quite funny (also punny), and generally a win.
#3 and #4 were supposed to come out back in *1984*, but I'm still
waiting...and still wondering who "Comstock" really is.

NOT recommended: The "Spaceways" books by "John Cleve" (originally
andrew j.  offutt but later taken over by somebody else whose name
escapes me.)  Zzzzz...

Marty Moore
mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 14:06:34 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola)
Subject: Re: books into films (Lensman!)

sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) writes:
>Well, if you want quantity and variety I suggest Smith's
>"Lensman"....

A Japanamated (Japanese animation, to the uninitiated) version of
Lensman has been done.  Most of it was done with computers, I think.
At any rate, I don't care if another version never makes it to the
screen; the animation in this film causes Olympic judges to crawl
out of my bureau holding signs saying "10.0."

If any of you get a chance at a con or something to see Lensman, DO
IT!  It's the best animation I've ever seen.  Period.

Pat Juola
Hopkins Maths
{seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 15:51:13 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Maximum Overdrive = Maximum Dumb!

Saw the movie last night.  On a scale of 1 to 10, it rates about a
two, down there below LIFEFORCE, about on a par with the TV show
STARLOST.

Can't imagine why King allowed such a DUMB movie to be made.  Poor
acting, unbelievable situations, the only good thing about the show
was the music by AC/DC.

arlan

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Aug 86 17:02:09-EDT
From: Cthulhu <AD0R@tb.cc.cmu.edu>
Subject: Dr. Phibes

I don't think Phibes was dead.  He was certainly disfigured
something fierce, but not dead.

They were, of course, pretty good movies.

There are two movies that I've seen that I *really* liked, but not a
lot of people seem to have ever heard of.  One was called Spectre,
and stared Robert Culp.  I heard a rumor once that it was a tv
pilot.

The second is called Equinox, and seemed to have a *lot* of
Lovecraftiness to it, even though it tried to stay within the normal
devil/demon world.

There was also a movie called Dr. Strange, or something like that,
that I found to bear quite a resemblance to Lovecraft's Hypnos.
Anyone else?

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 19:38:52 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Star Trek I  (was new TV series)

caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) says:
>STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of
>a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in
>1980.  The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space
>operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical
>issues.

   How about mortality?  And honor?

   Mortality was a major theme in ST II.  For the first time, we see
really see the Enterprise get torn up badly-- no, she's not
invulnerable.  And yes, the crew is mortal too.  Even a Vulcan can
die of radiation poisoning.

   ST III dulled the mortality theme by bringing Spock back-- but
made the point that nothing comes without price.  Kirk had to give
up his son *and* his ship in the process.  Honor was a major theme,
too, though the movie didn't bring it out as strongly.  Vonda
McIntyre's novelization did a lot to emphasize the importance of
honor to Klingons.  Even in the movie, remember Kirk's comment to
Sarek near the end-- "If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my
soul."

   No interesting philosophical issues?  I disagree strongly.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : :akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4:!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 05:40:09 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>Or how about "Star Trek: The Early Years" in which we follow the
>careers of the Enterprise crew before the start of the Enterprise's
>five-year mission?  They could get younger actors who resemble the
>main actors.

Vonda McIntyre's next Star Trek novel (all of which are excellent,
by the way) will be "Star Trek - the Initial Voyage of the Starship
Enterprise", or at least something close to that.  Definitely will
be about the beginnings of the Enterprise's fame (although I don't
know if it's the first voyages of the ship, or the first voyages of
Kirk et al.)

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 18:01:23 GMT
From: trwrb!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

I think renewing the series with a new cast is a fantastic idea.
The original cast can make guest appearances, and the new people
just might be better than the originals.  The worst thing they could
do would be to try and copy the characters exactly; i.e. have a
Spock-like first officer and a Kirk-like Captain.  Instead the
producers could come up with a new captain and a new first officer
(probably a different alien) and let them develop there own
personalities.

    They might also consider going to a made-for-tv-movie format.
Instead of having an episode every week for 1 hour they could have
an hour and a half, or a two hour episode every 3 weeks.  That would
give them more time to develop the stories, add music, add special
effects, edit out bad scenes, etc..

Pete Olpe
UUCP: {decvax!ucbvax!ihnp4}!trwrb!pro

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 17:18:50 GMT
From: sunybcs!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Re: Star Trek and New Characters

> The killing of david was a mistake. The older characters MUST be
> phased out, and room made for new ....

The killing of david was *NOT* a mistake.  Nobody liked him, I hated
him (he didn't fit the part).  The older characters do not HAVE to
be phased out, as mentioned many times before, a new crew could be
made, with guest spots by the old crew.  As long as they have
Kirstie Allie and not Robin Curtis playing Saavik, I will be happy.

Timothy D. Thomas
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim
CSnet: tim@buffalo,   ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 01:12:21 GMT
From: wucec2!tjs3035@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The Prisoner's car colour

Does anyone remember the license number of the "big black car" in
the prisoner.  I think the same car appeared at the airport in the
episode Many Happy Returns. I haven't watched that episode for about
a year, so I'm not sure.

Be seeing you.
Tom Sullivan
Washington University, St. Louis, MO.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 15:17:52 GMT
From: trwrb!pro@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter R. Olpe)
Subject: Tripods

Does anyone know if there are plans to make a third season of
Tripods?  Or at least a final episode to tie together the loose
ends?  Does anyone know who to write to?  Thanks.

Pete Olpe
UUCP: {decvax!ucbvax!ihnp4}!trwrb!pro

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 16:52:54 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes:
>  As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these
>august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending something
>back, what (or who) would it be?

A nuclear bomb.  Something that would, by "appearing" in that time,
materialize in my grandfather.  A computer & manual, destined for
T.A. Edison in Menlo Park, NJ.  The plans for "Opertion: Overlord"
to Die F^uhrer's office (excuse the attempt at an umlaut) in Berlin.
In general, anything that would cause an identifiable, unavoidable
mistake in time.  Great way to verify whether we live in a
"parallel" universe, or a "serial" one (cf. "Thrice Upon a Time," by
(James P.?) Hogan).

melnick@unc.UUCP (Alex Melnick) writes:
>Another question is: If you were in the future, knew about the
>experiment, and had the equipment to send some material or
>information back to the experimenters, WHY WOULD YOU SEND ANYTHING?

What if the results could be changed by the exeriment (cf.
Heisenberg's Un- certainty Principle :-)?

BTW: It was Larry Niven who said that. Niven's example went
something like:

"OK, I'll go back and deal with the dinosaurs. You go to Ford's lab,
duplicate the duplicate, come back with the original duplicate, and
I'll meet you a million years ago. Got that?"  "Ummm,..."

  (Larry Niven, in one of the "Flight of the Horse" s.s's; and
  "Theory and Practice of Time Travel", in "All the Myriad Ways".)

(If anyone has the original quote, mind emailing it to me? TIA.)

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 20:59:25 GMT
From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

Alex <...!mcnc!unc!melnick> writes:
>mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes:
>>  As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these
>>august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending
>>something back, what (or who) would it be?
>
> Another question is: If you were in the future, knew about the
> experiment, and had the equipment to send some material or
> information back to the experimenters, WHY WOULD YOU SEND
> ANYTHING?

Consider a slightly different scenario.  You know about the
experiment and have a time machine, but *you know the experiment
failed* (nothing showed up at the appropriate time).  Now, are you
willing send soemthing back?  I doubt I would....

mark purtill            (201) 829-5127
Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com    435 south st 2H-307
Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill  morristown nj 07960

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 17:24:39 GMT
From: sunybcs!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

>It seems that in performing the experiment, we're relying on
>someone in the future not merely to be able to help us, but also to
>want to help us.  Is this a reasonable assumption?

Think about the logic in that.  If we have to rely on somebody in
the future to help us, then we will wait forever.  If some
technology is 'invented' or 'found' because of somebody in the
future sending it to us, that would be a contradiction.  Ok, fine,
we now have some new technology.  So in the future (since it has
already happened), we send it back to ourselves again.  Where did it
originate???  There is no way any new knowledge from the future can
enter into the present or past because this knowledge must originate
someplace, or be found (found meaning discovered on its own or
invented, not handed to by some future scientist).

Timothy D. Thomas
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim
CSnet: tim@buffalo,   ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Aug 86 01:42:26-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: WorldCon Party?

   Well, I've seen no discussion so far, so I will bite the bullet
and bring it up:

   What SFL'ers are attending WorldCon, and shall we try to get
together?

   At past WorldCons there has frequently been an '@!%'-sign party,
where we all meet, see what each other look like in the flesh, and
have a good time. Occasionally some enterprising soul has brought in
a portable terminal, allowing us to e-mail a convention report from
the party.

   Please note: I AM NOT VOLUNTEERING TO HOST A PARTY IN MY ROOM!!!

   I just want to start the ball rolling. While I can contribute
materially and financially to a get-together, I value my peace of
mind too much to donate my space.

   Who out there is interested? Saul, in the past, you have set up a
special mailing list for WorldCon attendees. Will you do it this
time?  Or should I try to act as mail coordinator? (I am not too
adept at getting mail out to Usenet or BITNET).

   Interested people should send me e-mail. If Saul sets up a list,
I will pass the addresses on to him.

Peter Trei
oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

[Moderator's Note: Unfortunately, I don't have the time to handle
any of this.  The volume of mail for the digest is *huge* and I'm
barely keeping up with it (or my work).  If anyone else wishes to
handle this, be my guest.  Only keep me informed, I plan to be
there!]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Aug 86 1012-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #226
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 226

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 19:12:42 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - public domain idea....

mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP writes:
>Few years ago I gave away a whole bunch of "ALIEN" t-shirts In
>green letters across the chest "ALIEN" then underneath, a large
>uneven blotch of red silk-screen paint, with a big hole ripped into
>it with scissors....

I've seen in shops a similar idea, except that the shirts had a
plastic model of the baby Alien ripping its way out of the shirt -
Yuck!

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 14:12:35 -0500
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: ALIENS, etc flame on!

   I just finished reading about 2 dozen messages from you folks out
there nitpicking the ***** out of ALIENS. Why can't you folks just
enjoy a good movie without finding some fault! Most of the
discussions centered around small points that are either fully
explained in the book or can be logically explained dozens of other
ways. Most of it sounds just plain stupid!!! It gets to the point
where I start skipping messages because I can't stand the trivial
complaints. There isn't (and probably won't be) a perfect movie, at
least not to please everyone out there. But who cares if the
explosions weren't big enough...d'ya ever hear of duds...anyway if
it were a bigger bang Ripley wouldn't have survived to tell the
tale...everyone liked it...with exceptions.  If you folks could only
hear yourselves.

                      ****** FLAME OFF ******

   Here's an interesting theory. How did the Aliens get on the first
alien spacecraft. How about the a queen alien (drifting in space)
latched on to a passing spacecraft. How does the queen get into
space? Ask Ripley! Since we know that the Aliens can survive in
space (from the first movie), there may be ALIENS III, IV, etc.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 18:40:34 GMT
From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

brucec@tekgen.UUCP (Bruce Cheney) writes:
>4) ALIEN TECHNOLOGY - Originally, these critters piloted a space
>ship that crashed on the planet. But everytime we've seen them,
>they exhibit NO EVIDENCE of technology whatsoever. The only glimmer
>of intelligence we see is Queenie figuring out an elevator.

Wrongo!  The aliens also cut the power to the "place they were holed
up", prompting someone (I missed who) to say: "But they're only
animals!"  OR some such quote.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 20:09:51 GMT
From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

What you all seem to forget, is that mom just fought a cargo loader,
fell into a pit, and got landed on by same loader!  I am surprised,
given the general weakness of all of the aliens in ALIENS, that she
could/would even reach the shoe!

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 12:50:09 GMT
From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis)
Subject: Re: Bughunt! (ALIENS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS)

Theory: Some VP finds out about the bugs and so sticks syntho man on
the Nostromo and reroutes course.  Now, the ship does not come back
at all.  Do you think VP is going to fess up?  Not on your life!  37
years later (Ripley takes 57 years to hear that they have been
conolonizing for 20 years) when the decide to colonize, VP is
retired or really afraid to fess up.....

Simple?
alan curtis

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 86 18:44:31 GMT
From: cblpe!apc@caip.rutgers.edu (Alan Curtis)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER - BIG HOLES,but GOOD MOVIE)

thome@rochester.UUCP (Mike Thome) writes:
>Agreed - I was very suprised when it was revealed that the shuttle
>was parked on the ground (with the door left open) after so much
>care at the time of the first "battle drop" - touching down just
>long enough to drop off the ground transport, then zipping away...
>on the other hand, we all know how incompetant the guy in charge
>was... BTW, replenishment of supplies is a round trip in any case,
>unless you leave the transport on the ground.

Remeber, when they wanted to bring the APCII down from the ship, it
was about an hour trip!  I would want the APCI on the ground, but
with doors closed and people on guard.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 21:49 EDT
From: Dave.Touretzky@A.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: aliens home world

This is pure speculation, or maybe extrapolation.  The aliens don't
have a home world because they're not naturally-evolved creatures.
The aliens are a weapon developed by some other intelligent race.
What a weapon!  All their masters have to do is drop a few of those
babies onto an enemy ship or drop a few hundred onto a planet, and
then sit back and wait for the screaming to end and the blood to
dry.  No wonder the Company was itching to get its hands on them:
they're as clean as a neutron bomb, but smarter, and
self-reproducing.

The pilot of the alien ship may have been carrying a cargo of these
weapons when one got out and all hell broke loose, hence his warning
beacon that the ship was now hot.  Or perhaps the pilot's race was
at war with the race the created the aliens, and he was just another
casualty.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 16:44:08 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: ALIENS - Alien intelligence, biology & Jones the Cat

1) It's still not certain how intelligent the creatures are.  We
know the Queen is intelligent enough to use an elevator and
understand a gun, and we know she can give orders to drones.
Perhaps this is a total hive culture and she is the only intelligent
one?  Perhaps she has long distance control over drones, and ordered
the power cut in the colony.  (Perhaps the power was simply cut at
the power plant naturally)

The drones and fighters (did there seem to be several body types?)
have no understanding of weapons, crashing a flier or other
technology.  They fight with no regard for personal safety.  They do
know the difference between an enemy (whom they kill) and a possible
host (whom they take back to the nest).

2) The concept of the Queen was not in the first movie, and in fact
there was stuff in the book "Alien" which contradicted the Queen
concept.  In the book, the creature took the captured humans into
the hold and strung them up as cocoons.  This could either be a) a
hole in the story, b) an indication that as ultimate survivors any
of the species can become a queen when isolated or c) evidence that
the creatures are so instinctual that they do this no matter what.

Anyway, unless the creature on the Nostromo did turn into a queen,
Jones the Cat is safe.  I think the director deliberately
concentrated on the cat just to annoy you, knowing everybody
expected the cat to be the carrier.

3) In a totally different direction, the crashed ship that was the
original hive was completely decked out in Alien style.  So was the
reactor basement, but in a very different way.  The reactor basement
was a total mess, while the crashed ship seemed very much designed
as an alien warren.  The curves and walls all seemed made to be
alien hive.  The machines looked similar.  The pilot had a neat hole
in her abdominal bone structure, as though it was intentional (a
vagina) and not a symptom of violence.

(If you think about it, these ultimate survivors aren't very
ultimate if they need to steal other creatures to breed.  Perhaps
this is simply a preferred method, and they are capable of doing it
themselves.)

But for the aliens to have space travel doesn't match the hive I
described above.  On the other hand, perhaps they have workers,
fighters and thinkers, and perhaps the thinkers are also those who
mate with the Queen.

All in all the movie was superb, but the ending in the mother ship
was weak.  The fight in the waldo-suit didn't make any sense to me.
If I escaped behind the bulkhead, I would come back with a grenade
launcher, not a loader.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 20:13:23 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Aliens (SPOILER)

It just occurred to me the other day while watching a report on
medical effects of being in space...

The human body doesn't hold up well under prolonged zero-gravity
conditions.  Bones lose calcium, among other things.

Also, I would suspect that artificial gravity is very expensive for
power consumption and even worse for interfering with FTL drives.
Gravity involves warped space, and if this drive does anything
similar, the two fields might well interact violently.

So, you sleep the crew because they would otherwise end up with
physical problems.  There's an android along because they're
designed NOT to lose it under zero-gee (milk for blood; can't lose
calcium :-) and they might be needed should emergency require
someone to spend long time in zero-gee.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 12:11:18 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: Mark Leeper's review of ALIENS

From:   mtgzz!leeper    (Mark R. Leeper)
> ...In specific, the creature in the first film was invulnerable to
> flame throwers, I think.  It seems to me that the new creatures of
> the same species are not....

I'm not sure that this is the case. I partially agree with your
point.  When I came out of the film, it *seemed* to me that these
Aliens were much too easy to kill, but that's just a superficial
impression. First, it's not clear that the Alien in the original was
invulnerable to the flamethrowers, as the Nostromo crew never really
had a chance to use them against it (think about it, did any of them
actually get a chance to shoot?). Secondly, consider the fact that
the flamethrowers in the original were jerry-rigged, and thus not
likely as powerful as the ones that the Marines had. Thirdly, the
Marines also used shells which penetrated the Aliens' exoskeletons
and exploded from inside. Much nastier than flamethrowers.

>     Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters."  The
> film introduces a child character.  It is a serious mistake
> because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to
> chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic
> characters like children....

That depends on the director. Recall that Bruce's second victim in
JAWS was a young boy. Recall also the scene in ALLIGATOR in which
the young boy "walked the plank" into the swimming pool and became
Purina Gator Chow. Now, granted, these were not major characters
like Newt was, but they do indicate that the "unwritten rule"
against doing in children is not always followed. In fact, when I
saw the film, I knew that Newt would come through OK, but when she
was hauled away by the Alien, for just a minute I *doubted* that
conviction. To me, just having even that small amount of doubt
indicates Cameron's strength as a filmmaker.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 12:46:17 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: Music from ALIENS

From:   utastro!tmca    (Tim Abbott)

> Actually I was rather pleased to hear the Gayenne Ballet Suite
> during the title and credit sequences (it was used in 2001 to
> convey the idea of 18+ months of routine as Discovery journeyed to
> Jupiter.) surely this must have been some form of tribute to the
> all-time greatest of sf movies. (in fact the music was doctored
> very slightly, possibly beyond the limits of straight
> "rearrangement").

Knowing Horner (probably the biggest hack in film music), it was
there because it was also used in the original ALIEN (in the brief
scene in which Dallas was relaxing by himself in the shuttle), not
because it was in 2001.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 19:39:59 GMT
From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Asimov's 1st Law and Aliens

After thinking about it awhile, I have decided that although the
rule that Bishop quoted, sounded similar to Asimov's 1st law of
robotics, that in practice it must have been something much
different.

A robot or android programmed with Asimov's 1st law couldn't be used
as crew on a military vessel, since it would do everything in its
power to prevent the humans aboard from putting themselves into
dangerous situations, even if the humans ordered it to do so. An
Asimovian robot would have sabotaged the lander, rather than let the
Marines land on a dangerous planet. This, of course, doesn't address
the problems that would ensue if they were fighting human opponents.

I think that Asimov's novel 'The Naked Sun' makes this point
explictly.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 20:22:19 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Aliens re:the explosion of the reactor

donch@tekirl.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes:
>> ..it is *NEXT* *TO* *IMPOSSIBLE* for a nuclear plant to explode
>> as they had it.
>
>I specifically remember them referring to a FUSION power plant.

Well, fusion reactions are pretty unlikely to run away.  It's
difficult even to *sustain* a fusion reaction without the mass of a
good size star close at hand.

>But then...the company is cheap and who's to criticize how they go
>about opening up a planet.  They may take the risks of a
>super-power plant with inherent dangers just to minimize costs.
>The rats!)

Yeah.  Someone suggested that the explosion was somehow the result
of the terraforming plant...  I'd feel more comfortable with that.
Also, I seem to remember when they were discussing the upcoming
explosion they mentioned something about the company using a certain
type of system... potentially dangerous...  I'll have to go back and
see it again.

But the idea of a fusion plant just up and exploding,,, Nah...

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: ALIENS -- \"You're so cute, let me hug your face!\"
Date: 1 Aug 86 20:30:27 GMT

wall@boves.dec.com (David F. Wall DTN 297-6882) writes:
>I thought the alien that eventually wasted the dropship simply
>scampered aboard when the dropship dumped off the APC.  Those
>little buggers are fast.

My recollection is that it got aboard while the dropship was perched
on top of the building.  One scene has the co-pilot running back
inside just before the ill-fated take-off.  At least at that time,
the ramp was down.  Who knows how long it was down before then?

>How come the Alien aboard the Nostromo was so huge (the sucker
>stood at least 2.5 meters by the end) and so many of the Aliens on
>LV-426 were man-size?

It's been awhile since I saw the original Alien, but I remember the
alien as not growing to more than man high.  I remember because it
struck me at the time as a very convenient size to hide a man inside
a costume.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Aug 86 1039-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #227
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 227

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 20:41:26 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #200

acw@ELEPHANT-BUTTE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM writes:
>I'm surprised that Sarima couldn't translate "Ungoliant".  If
>"Cirith Ungol" is "the Pass of the Spider", and "Iant Iaur" is "Old
>Bridge", mightn't "Ungol-iant" be "Old Spider"?

   It *could* be, but that is not how Tolkien handles it.  Remember,
Sindarin is a very synthesizing language, so words with quite
different origins can come out similar. Tolkien actually treats
Ungoliant as "Ungol-liant" where "liant" is a derivative of a root
meaning "weaving/twining", and he originally had "ungol" mean
"spider web", though he seems to have changed his mind on that.
Thus, it is hard to determine what his concept of the meaning of the
name was by the time The Silmarillion was published.
   Of course in a few cases he is known to have completely revised
his handling of a word. That is he kept the original form but
treated it totally differently in his later works. So it *is*
possible that "Old Spider" is what he was using in later writings.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 86 20:20:47 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>    First, we get a message from Mr Dalton that states that the
>author of LotR is not the final authority on the book he wrote.
>And then, Mr Milne (who seems to be an authority, with a lot of
>carefully thought out and well presented views on Middle Earth)
>goes and agrees with him.  NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!!!
>    Middle Earth is not a real place.  It would be really nice if
>it were, and I would be in line to buy tickets to the place on the
>first flight out.  But, the whole carefully thought out, well
>researched place is only a creation - it doesn't exist.  Therefore,
>it doesn't have an objective reality apart from what Mr Tolkien has
>presented us with.

   True enough, but a large part of the *fun* of Middle Earth is
that you *can* pretend that it is real and make sense doing it!
Sure, we all know it is just a story, but we like to apply Willing
Suspension of Disbelief even while we are talking about it. It make
for some fun conversations. So, when we place ourselves inside the
mythos of Middle Earth, we have accepted the stories own premise,
that it is a translation of a *far* older work. In that context we,
of course, discuss things from the point of view of a "serious"
historian trying to make sense out of a very incomplete account.

>    LotR is a novel, a story, recounting the destruction of the One
>Ring.  The other books are histories relating in more detail the
>past, and even the 'present' (in terms of LotR) of Middle Earth.  I
>see no reason that the Silmarillion, especially (tho some of the
>more recent books are getting more and more fragmentary and
>contradictory), cannot be taken as the truth as it exists in Middle
>Earth.  Mr Tolkien was a master, but it doesn't seem all that
>likely that he would conjure up mis-facts about the world he was
>creating, just because he was creating history and legend.  After
>all, wouldn't we all like the legends of the real world to be true?
>Well, Tolkien's legends were in Middle Earth.

   True, but even Tolkien himself talked about Middle Earth as if it
were real and he were "only" a scholar researching it. He would
often cast his perceptions of it in a (true) historian's
uncertainties.  This allowed him to change his mind by saying that
he had "gotten wrong" before, without having to actually step out of
the mythos. For instance I have a description of the case endings in
Quenya written by Tolkien, it is full of "maybe"s and "can't be
determined from the existing corpus"s. Is this any different than
what we are doing?

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 86 01:36:48 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>Goldberry (and who might she be, hmmmm?) tells Frodo that for Tom
>>to master all his land "would indeed be a burden".  If he were
>>Iluvatar, he would not only be the land's master, but its creator,
>>and mastery of it could scarcely be a burden.
>
>       Reread the opening chapters of The Silmarillion! The
>original home of the Valar in Ea, during the time of the two
>Globes, was in fact in the area later known as Middle Earth. It was
>only after Morgoth showed his true colors and destroyed the Globes
>that Valinor was built and the Valar moved out of Middle Earth(for
>the most part).

Don't recall the location of the first Valaheim being specified that
exactly.  Sure an' it could have been in the region we know as
Middle-Earth (i.e., the lands to the east of old Beleriand), but the
world was changed so much in the battles that followed, that I have
serious doubts as to whether any such claim can be strongly
supported.  In particular, I think the rooting-out of Utumno changed
the area beyond all hope of any one/one correspondence.

>>"Fatherless" was actually part of the Elves' name for him, and may
>>or may not have been accurate.

True, but Tom's claim to be "oldest" doesn't really allow for
parents.

>>I might even hazard a guess that Goldberry was also a Maia,
>>originally serving the water Valar (whose name escapes me just
>>now).
>
>Indeed, I think the case for Goldberry is even stronger than
>for Bombadil.

I'd say that as "the river's daughter" she's probably at least part
Maia -- most likely descended from Osse or/and Uinen.

>>For myself, though, I prefer to have Bombadil unclassified (my
>>preference, as opposed to what I only find reasonable). I find
>>that tidying unexplained matters into conveniently available
>>categories tends to deprive them of some of their richness.
>>Personally, I'd sooner have Bombadil marvellous and unexplained
>>than "yet another Maia; we already know about those".
>
>       I will admit that Bombadil and Shelob are very unusual and
>difficult to fully explain. Indeed it may be that some of the Ainur
>who entered Ea were of a different sort, not either Maiar or Valar.

Hmmm... For what it's worth, Bombadil started out as the subject of
a cutsey little poem, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," wherein
Gberry also appears.  And though the book containing "TAoTB," a book
by the same title, appeared well after LOtR, either Carpenter's
biography or "The Letters of JRRT" will make it clear that the poem
was written BEFORE his appearance in The Fellowship.

It seems, in fact, that the appearance of Tom was a
spur-of-the-moment thing with JRRT, using a character he liked/loved
in an odd context, and was just a moment of whimsey -- which he
never fully rationalized into the context of Middle-Earth.

That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power over
him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear to take
the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power to corrupt
a Maia.

If we must have explanations (and mustn't we?), then the best we can
do is put a smiling face on the situation and call him an "earth
spirit" or some such.  I realize full well how unsatisfactory this
is, but some comments in the Letters hint that this may have been
the direction in which Tolkien's thoughts regarding Bombadil were
headed.

Best of wishes,
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 17:21 PDT
From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Tolkien as Middle-Earth Omniscient

Just a small point. Many authors claim that they do not know
everything about what they write. They admit that they learn about
their creations through the act of writing. In fact, look at MZB's
notes in "Lythande" for an example. So, if Tolkien was one of these
kinds of authors, his writings may not be the ultimate authority.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 01:32:02 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes:
>It seems, in fact, that the appearance of Tom was a
>spur-of-the-moment thing with JRRT, using a character he
>liked/loved in an odd context, and was just a moment of whimsey --
>which he never fully rationalized into the context of Middle-Earth.
>
>That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power over
>him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear to take
>the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power to
>corrupt a Maia.

Actually, Tom holds some power over the Ring. He could make it
disappear.

And now, for some wanton speculation. I think Bombadil is a side
effect of Melkor's discord to the Song of Illuvatar. 1) Bombadil is
a completely free spirit, within his domain. I think that was more
or less what Melkor was trying to do: not get bound into the Song,
but be independent. 2) Neither Gandalf nor Elrond know very much
about him. They know about balrogs, about Sauron, about the Valar
and the Maia and the rest; but Gandalf knows remarkably little about
a major league entity in his own back yard. This is some evidence
that he isn't from the main line Song. 3) The Ring has no power over
him. Would it have power over Morgoth? I don't think so. Ditto
Sauron, of course, but for different reasons (his power was bound up
in the Ring). 4) The good from evil theme.  There is the whole bit
about not killing Gollum because some unforseen good might yet come
from him. Gandalf makes this point quite a few times. Where does he
get this peculiar idea from? What good had ever come from Morgoth,
Sauron, Ancalagon or the rest of the baddies in the mythos. This
hope that good can come out of bad is, from Gandalf's view, not very
supportable. Now if Bombadil is a side effect of Melkor's song,
Gandalf can have a good reason to believe in sparing Gollum.

The major point against (other than no real shred of plausable
evidence) the proposition is the assertion that evil doesn't create
anything. That would mean Melkor's song couldn't create Bombadil
directly. But Illuvatar rechanneled the discord into his Song, so
perhaps that's sufficient to cause creation.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 22:38:14 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Tharp <ops@ncsc.arpa>
Subject: Re: Who or What Is Gandalf?

From: Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc
>The origin of Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron is detailed in the
>_Silmarillon_, as are the origins of all other creatures, even
>Shelob and Tom Bombadill.

I, and others I'm sure, would be grateful if you cite exactly where
Shelob and Tom Bombadil are detailed in "Silmarillion".  I am not
aware of such a place, and have always assumed that the material of
LotR and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was all we have.  Do I
have an unexpected treat awaiting me?

Thanks very much,
Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 23:06:19 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards

From: kagraves@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kenneth A Graves)
>I guess the following: The Valar see that Middle Earth cannot be
>home for the elves much longer. The Noldor and Teleri that remain
>are leaving via the Grey Havens and other ports. The Avari,
>however, have not (clearly?) heard the call of the sea, but are
>still wandering Middle and Eastern Earth. Thus two followers of
>Orome, Alatar and Pallando, are dispatched to attempt to find the
>remnants of the Avari and extend the invitation of the Valar. Why
>followers of Orome?  Because 1) he alone of the Valar knows the
>eastern lands, and 2) he gave the initial invitation at Cuivienen
>and is still interested in bringing the Avari to Aman. Did they
>succeed in this mission? No marching of the Avari is recorded, but
>there are many ways to the Sea that don't pass by Gondor.

Not impossible, but doesn't it seem rather unlikely?

1.  *ALL* the Istari were supposed to be emissaries of the Valar to
aid in rallying the free peoples of the West against Sauron, in the
closest thing to an open display of power the Valar could risk.
Surely saddling two of them with an extra mission of such import and
scope would seriously compromise their usefulness in their primary
purpose.

2.  Why bother?  What is coming to an end is the co-dominion of
Elves and Men as the 2 predominant races of Middle Earth: but it's a
big continent, with many places of retreat for those who don't want
contact with the outside world.  Those Elves who don't want to lose
Middle Earth, and they were many, would have plenty of places to
live beyond the knowledge of Men.  Certainly it's not up to the
Valar to mandate that all the Firstborn shall leave.  We know that
many of the Avari stayed on in Lorien after Galadriel had left; even
Celeborn remained awhile among them, though it no longer held for
him the attraction it used to have.  And of all the Elves of
Mirkwood, the only one I know to have left was Legolas, following
Elessar's death.

So it seems quite unlikely to me that the Valar would have taken on
anything so massive, without much hope of success (the Avari felt no
attraction for Valinor or the sea, never having been there), and
certainly at such an inappropriate time, when the Avari, along with
all the other Free Peoples, should have been uniting against Sauron.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 20:03:25 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes:
> That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power
> over him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear
> to take the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power
> to corrupt a Maia.

Yes and no.  The people who feared using the Ring, such as Gandalf
and Galadriel, were in a position where they desperately needed the
power the Ring would give them. For them, the Ring would be a
constant temptation.  Look at the reactions of Gandalf, Galadriel,
and Boromir to the Ring.  The Ring corrupted through by being too
useful not to use.

Bombadil had everything he wanted, and had no desire whatever to
dominate other creatures.  The Ring was intended specifically as an
instrument of domination, and as such was completely useless to
Bombadil.  This is stated fairly clearly in "The Council of Elrond"
on Book II, I believe.

> If we must have explanations (and mustn't we?), then the best we
> can do is put a smiling face on the situation and call him an
> "earth spirit" or some such.

No offense, but I find that to be quite absurd.  The Ring's weak
power over the hobbits shows that it corrupts in proportion to the
wearer's desire to do great deeds.  Bilbo's aspirations were small,
and he got off very lightly. Bombadil's are non-existent, and the
Ring had no grip on him.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  2 Aug 86 01:47:10 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Knowledge
To: blade!jcn@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

From: blade!jcn@caip.rutgers.edu (Julio Cesar Navas)
>Tolkien wrote nothing concrete (perhaps this and that).  Therefore,
>his readers would never really know why Sauron did what he did.
>Tolkien, however, would know.

  That isn't necessarily true.  An author may have the ambiguous
situation visualized as an ambiguous situation.  He may not have
decided which way it really is.

...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 86 0826-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #228
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 228

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Biggle & Van Vogt & Wren,
                 Films - Bladeruner & Lensman,
                 Music - Silent Running (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 31 Jul 1986 10:01:55-PDT
From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Biggle

I have a few books by Lloyd J. Biggle, Jr. in my collection. The
ones I have are as follows:

   The Metallic Muse    Collection
   Monument             Novel
   The Rule of the Door Collection
   Silence is Deadly    Collection
   The World Menders    Novel

Note the last title. It is NOT the book by the same name by Marion
Zimmer Bradley. The other titles mentioned (War of the Ghosts (?),
etc) I am not familiar with.

kevin routley

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 21:41:21 GMT
From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Alien, original concept?

When I first saw Alien, the original, the implanted embryo brought
to mind my first reading of such an idea.  A. E. van Vogt's VOYAGE
OF THE SPACE BEAGLE, contains a super-alien that is picked up in
interstellar space by a research ship.  This creature is the last of
his race and has the prime motive of implanting embryos he's
carrying into humans so as to recreate his kind.  This creature has
the ability to pass through matter, thus evading capture and making
implantation into the humans a simple matter.  In the story, no
embryos ever come to term, but one human is killed while the
creature is fishing around inside the man's chest looking for a
likely body cavity to place the embryo.  Van Vogt doesn't go in for
gore, to his credit, but he does manage to get quite a bit of
tension going in the story.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 22:49:24 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!ferguson@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen

[ In which T. Wren ]

>Talks about "antiphotons" as if these were current knowledge.
>Gives them the magic property of causing a black hole to expell
>it's mass.  Says Hawking knew all about this from the start.
>Right.

I haven't read this, and the other described glitches sound fairly
atrocious, but this has a touch of verisimilitude. Black holes *may*
expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by means of spontaneous
pair-production and subsequent capture of one of the quanta. I can't
actually remember the particles involved, and the process is
entirely hypothetical (as are black holes of course) but the idea is
certainly due to Hawking.

Alex Ferguson.
JANET  : ferguson@cs.glasgow.ac.uk
USENET : uk!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!ferguson

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 22:42:08 GMT
From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner doesn't measure up. Re: do androids dream
Subject: ...

chabot@3d.dec.com writes:
>I disagree: there are very obvious cables attached to the car,
>especially noticeable when it's taking off.

 Hmmm...sharp are you, Jedi knight! But still, this movie creams 98%
of what else is out there, visually.

>But even more than that, I was immensely disappointed in the plot,
>having been a fan of Dick for years.  Perhaps I should not have
>prep'ed so much by reading DADOES, but that was six months before
>the release of BR.  It was more like Mike Hammer in the 21st
>Century than a P K Dick story.

 I too am a BIG fan of PKD, but I can deal with the differences.
Sure, I would have *loved* for them to make an accurate film of
DADOES, but nobody (but us fans) would have gone to see it. They
explore different aspects of the same idea -- the book concerned
itself with why the humans were different from the androids (empathy
& empathy boxes, mercerism, etc.), while the movie concerned itself
mainly with how they were the same (yeah, yeah, I know I'm
oversimplifying - but I'm talking broad themes here). This is
emphasized by details like Roy & Rick's hand problems in the fight
scene.  A few details that were added would only be enjoyable in a
movie (the hologram magnification bit, to some degree the street
vendors with electron microscopes...). In my mind, this reflects
well on Ridley Scott. If you're going to change the book, do it
right (though I did hear that PKD wanted to make them change it from
"based on the novel.." to "inspired by the novel..."). Was I do find
disconcerting, however, is how plot detail from the book (and other
books) wind up somewhere else. All I can think of is that Ridley
wanted to keep as many of Dick's ideas as he could, even though he
couldn't follow the book exactly. There's no problem with that, eh?
Except for the empathy questions, which he lifted straight from the
book, even though they sound very bizarre without the understanding
that animals are mostly scarce to extinct (although this could be an
attempt to be somewhat mystical about how you test for human
empathy).

>Perhaps because of its trite plot ending, it could be called a
>"classic science fiction movie", but I wouldn't call it classic
>science fiction.  My opinion of BR was that it was visually
>interesting, intellectually boring, and morally inconsistent.

 The ending is trite for a PKD story (I personally think his
typewriter would have refused to put the words on paper - A Philip
K. Dick "happy ending" usually means the characters
die....well...no, Ubik wasn't too happy. OK, A Philip K. Dick happy
ending is a reality with no sharp edges :-) Anyway, it isn't too bad
for the movie (c'mon, Harrison Ford HAS to get the girl). I've been
told that the ending was slapped on in a rush, and that the overhead
shots are from The Shining. Makes sense.

OK. Now here's what's terribly right about BR:

While the 'cop narration' is corny, the rest of the dialogue has
more great lines than any other movie I've seen. One I haven't seen
yet: "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes." - Roy
Baty

The art direction is amazing. If you haven't spotted these goodies,
next time check 'em out: the holograms all over the place (almost
anything that looks like a photo) - there's one where they
smooth-cut from a photo to a live shot - really nice; there are
about three shots where Rick just misses Leon leading up their big
fight scene; the 'Jawas' that are on Rick's car (light-up eyes); of
course the great scene where Rick drinks a shot of clear liquid and
his blood mixes with it (if you've seen it, ya know it looks better
than it sounds)....

The idea of the androids coming back to meet their maker (which is
not in the book)

Finally, while I agree that this is not a simple retelling of
Frankenstein, there are Frankenstein elements in it, which are
highlighted by two shots where Roy and Pris look like Frankenstein
and the Bride of Frankenstein (respectively).

brian bishop
bishop@usc-ecl.ARPA
bishop@usc-oberon.ARPA
{uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol}!usc-oberon!bishop.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 19:50:17 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: books into films (Lensman!)

ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes:
>A Japanamated (Japanese animation, to the uninitiated) version of
>Lensman has been done.  I don't care if another version never makes
>it to the screen; the animation in this film causes Olympic judges
>to crawl out of my bureau holding signs saying "10.0."

   Yeah, the *animation* was good, unfortunately, for a Lensman fan,
they mutilated the *story*. Really! Clarissa McDougal a "clinging-
vine" type!?!? And they left the various effects of the inertialess
drive entirely out of the story! And *no* Arisia! Whatever it was it
*wasn't a *Lensman* story, it just borrowed some names and a few
plot devices from the books.
   So, yes I would like to see another Lensman movie, one which
stayed closer to the feel and style of the books.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 02:12:52 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Silent Running

There's a song I've been hearing on the radio for a while called
"Silent Running".  A friend tells me that this is supposed to be the
theme music for a new sf movie by the same name. I was wondering if
anyone has any further information about this movie/song.

Thanks,
Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 16:31:28 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

Silent Running is an sf movie that has been around for quite a few
years now.  It was directed by Douglas Trumbull, of 2001 f/x fame,
using particularly the f/x that were developed in that film for the
reprentation of Saturn, complete with realistic rings, and the now
well known matt overlay techniques to depict ships in space.

The premise of the film is that Earth is now one giant concrete
jungle and the remains of the forests, deserts, etc are incarcerated
in giant spaceships in solar orbit out Saturn's way, in the hope
that they may eventually be brought back to Earth. BUT, the company
decides that they need the ships and orders the crews to destroy the
forests and put the ships back into useful service. This is fine by
all except one man...see the film for further info (it's worth it).

BTW This film contains the original R2-D2's: Hewie, Dewie and Louie,
to my mind Star Wars ripped them off.

The soundtrack is by some famous female vocalist (tho' I can't
remember who right now) which was released years ago and is no doubt
deleted by now. There is also a band called Silent Running, but I
haven't a clue what they sound like.

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 18:32:53 GMT
From: alfke@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (J. Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

Let me be one of the first million to say:

[1] "Silent Running" is a song by Mike and the Mechanics, a group
    fronted by Mike Rutherford of Genesis (hell, he has to do
    something while Phil's singing "one more night..." a few hundred
    times).

[2] "Silent Running" is a decidedly non-new sf movie (released 1973
    or so) directed by Douglas Trumbull, special-effects wizard
    behind 2001 and (I think) The Empire Strikes Back, among others.
    Basically, we've turned the Earth into a parking lot and put all
    our vegetation into orbit around Saturn, with 3 guys tending it,
    etc.

Having never heard the song, I have no idea whether it has any
relation to the movie.

Peter Alfke
alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 20:05:08 GMT
From: clarke@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Cam Clarke)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

The current song "Silent Running" is by Mike & The Mechanics (Mike
is Mike Rutherford from Genesis).  There is a somewhat old movie
called "Silent Running", but the song you mention isn't from it.
The movie (must be from around 1977) is very good and worth seeing.
The video for "Silent Running" (the song), is a mini-sf-drama in
itself, but I don't know if there is or will be a movie made around
it.

Cam Clarke
clarke%h-sc4@harvard.ARPA
clarke@h-sc4.HARVARD.EDU
clarke@h-sc4.UUCP
clarke@HARVUNXU.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 10:34:37 GMT
From: chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

I have the single in question sitting in front of me.  Its full
title is "Silent Running (On Dangerous Ground)"; it also says "Title
track from the movie 'On Dangerous Ground'".  No relation to the
original "Silent Running" (which, btw, if you've never seen it, can
do really weird things to your mind if your drunk or stoned when you
see it..).

Does anyone know anything about 'On Dangerous Ground'?  The only
mention of it that I've seen is in connection with this song.

Brent

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 18:46:01 GMT
From: citrin@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne Citrin)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

tmca@utastro.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes:
>The soundtrack is by some famous female vocalist (tho' I can't
>remember who right now) which was released years ago and is no
>doubt deleted by now. There is also a band called Silent Running,
>but I haven't a clue what they sound like.

The theme song for the film was sung by Joan Baez.  It was written,
I believe, by Peter Schikele, better known as Professor Peter
Schikele, the "discoverer" of P.D.Q. Bach.

Wayne Citrin
(ucbvax!citrin)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 19:48:52 GMT
From: rtech!daveb@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Brower)
Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song

Silent Running, 1971, Douglas Trumbull's directorial debut, gets ***
from Maltin's "Movies on TV."  I think that's overrated.  An
American Airlines spaceship storing the Earth's last remaining
plants is told to jettison the cargo and return to commercial
service.  Bruce Dern, the concerned Botanist, kills the rest of the
crew and tries to escape to the outerplanets to save the plants.  He
is helped by three cute "droid" maintenance robots.

The best parts are the 'hard SF' technology sequences.  The worst is
the then politically chic pro-ecology breast beating.  The script
was by Deric Washburn, Michael Cimino (Deer Hunter, Heaven's Gate),
and Steven Bocho (Hill St. Blues)

It has some of the best spaceship interiors ever done (much like the
original ALIEN), which were shot on the WWII Aircraft carrier that
provided the name of the spaceship (Independence?).  Many of the
space effects look dated, but the 'through the rings of Saturn' bit
remains effective.

The vapid closing credits song was sung by Joan Baez.  Peter
Schickele (a/k/a PDQ Bach) wrote the music.  He also produced some
of Baez's albums of the period.

dB
{amdahl, sun, mtxinu, cbosgd}!rtech!daveb

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 02:14:39 GMT
From: eneevax!hsu@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

I seriously doubt that anybody would _want_ to use the song in a
movie.  You see, it's already been used as background music in at
least two tv shows, most forgettably as a 4 minute filler (terrible
recording of a terrible non-album performance) on an equally
forgettable episode of Airwolf.

If 2001:A Space Odyssey were made today, do you think Kubrick would
have used any of that music if it had been first used on Airwolf?
Hah!

This does not, of course, in any way imply that Kubrick had anything
to do with the movie Silent Running, in which Bruce Dern did a good
job of looking neurotic.  Anybody know where you can buy one of
those scooters?

David Hsu  (301) 454-1433 || -8798 || -8715
Communications & Signal Processing Laboratory
Systems Research Center, Bldg 093
The University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
ARPA: hsu@eneevax.umd.edu
UUCP: [seismo,allegra,rlgvax]!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 18:04:13 GMT
From: kontron!cramer@caip.rutgers.edu (Clayton Cramer)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

> Having never heard the song, I have no idea whether it has any
> relation to the movie.

It does not.  The theme song to the movie _Silent_Running_ was sung
by Joan Baez.  I don't remember the name, but it was what got me to
the theater to see the movie.

The song _Silent_Running_ by Mike & The Mechanics SHOULD have been
the theme song to the movie _Red_Dawn_.

Clayton E. Cramer

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 21:26:37 GMT
From: ihlpl!marcus@caip.rutgers.edu (Hall)
Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song

>Silent Running 1986, Mike (Rutherford) and the Mechanics

This could be the song in question.  It does have a somewhat sf and
the video looks like it contains clips out of a movie.

By the way, the songs from the movie are "Rejoice in the Sun" and
"Running Silent", there was no song "Silent Running" in the movie.

Marcus Hall
..!ihnp4!ihlpl!marcus

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 86 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #229
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 229

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 22:28:58 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: *ALIENS* (Spoilers) (LONG ARGUMENT)

srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been
>pretty lame.  And why are they all cast as "refutations"?  I'm not
>Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply
>to argue.

Because you presented your "objections" in and argumentative and
smug style.  And the replies were a lot less lame than your original
"objections".  (There, I can argue by assertion as well as you.:-)

>Personally I feel that the movie has to stand on its own and be
>internally consistent without reference to a "book" that is written
>after the movie and with a conscious intention to explain away
>problems in the movie.

Bullshit.  Movies are edited and trimmed.  LOTS of stuff is taken
from them in the interests of tight, interesting storytelling.  The
books are normally written from shooting scripts, although in many
cases the books are written first as a treatment.  Yes, the movie
should stand on its own, but just because they don't stop and say
"Scott Turner won't understand this technical point, let us lecture
20 minutes on physics" doesn't mean ALIENS didn't stand on its own.

>As for the individual explanations:
>Deep Sleep.  There's little or no indication in the movie that the
>ships have hyperspace capability.  Surely the escape pod from the
>Nostromo didn't, and it had the same kind of sleep pod.  If you are
>willing to grant hyperspace, though, you can make up all sorts of
>reasons for using deep sleep (see above).

The escape pod made it through the "core systems" in about 57 years.
I imagine there might be a few stars near us with planets.  In 57
years, even at 3/4 lightspeed, you don't get very far.  Must be a
small number of core systems?  Oh, and Acheron, the "rock", was
several light-years from Gateway.  If they had no FTL of some kind,
then how did they get from Gateway to Acheron in less than a month?
You tell us, Scott.

>As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space,
>I see several objections.  First of all, in a deep space craft you
>can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like
>oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the
>battle structure.  You just hook a container of LOX on the outside.
>Second, why waste all the time during the journey?  Why not use the
>time to prepare for the coming mission?  This is an emergency
>rescue, after all.  Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in
>using deep sleep.  Would you be willing to let yourself be
>frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days?  Not me.

Food is mass.  LOX is mass.  There's this neat thing that's been
found out about mass.  You need FUEL mass to propel INERT mass.  You
make power trade-offs.  If they want to get there quickly, they get
rid of anything that isn't essential to the job.  You seem to have
confused aerodynamics with rocketry.  Sure, at our paltry <1/4
lightspeed rates, we don't have to worry about aerodynamics.  At
higher speeds, ambient dust and gas might well become an issue.

Oh, and as for being put into coldsleep, would you be willing to get
into a vehicle with inadequate safety devices, driven by a person
who works a 10 hour shift, with less than 10 minutes of rest break
every three hours, which travels at speeds in excess of 40 mph over
heavily travelled, poorly maintained surface roads which are also
host to large numbers of other vehicles, of which 1 in 10 are driven
by persons under the influence of drugs and alcohol?  "Sure, I'll
ride the bus downtown."

The implication of the film was that they HAD to use Coldsleep.
Except where it is technically inaccurate, in a SF movie, one must
try to accept the terms of the technology they're presenting (within
reasonable bounds).

>Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters.  Yes, I was aware that
>the "thermal overload" was already underway.  That DOESN'T mean
>that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte
>blanche fashion.  If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor
>that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last
>thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten
>the process.

Ripley was taking a calculated risk.  Had you been there, I'm sure
you'd have been bugfood just before the tower went up.  (anyone know
how to do an alien smiley?)

>Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform.  Justify this all you want.
>Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at
>this point.  It makes no sense at all.  There is too much wind
>inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform?
>Yeah, THAT seems likely.  And I said hover NEAR the platform, not
>OVER the platform.  I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and
>I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the
>platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left
>the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie-
>making) to have the craft hovering out of sight.  And how would
>Bishop know when to return?  And why didn't he return immediately?

Too much wind, yes, indeed, it DOES seem likely.  Try flying a
copter next to a cliff wall and you'll find out about shear
currents.  Turbulence is another feature of those physical laws you
got confused about above.

How would Bishop know when to return?  Scanners, maybe, or perhaps
he was simply moving around with the wind currents in order to keep
from being blown into a wall.  He DID mention that he had to keep
moving, when he apologized to Ripley for not being there.

>Cheap Movie Making.  Ripley's dream.  Need I say more?  How cheap
>can you get?

With this I agree.  It was interesting when they did it in "American
Werewolf in London" but it's been overused since.  But this isn't
cheap movie making, rather, it's a cheap trick.  It was an expensive
scene to shoot.

>Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle.  Please don't blame
>this on the incompetent commander.  He wasn't even there.  At any
>rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after
>they've survived a few missions.  They have protocols beaten in to
>them, and they follow them.  In a large part, that's what makes
>them survive.

OK, blame it on the pilot.  You don't know how long that door was
open, either.  They cut to the shuttle, which had told earlier to
circle and wait.  For all we know, the shuttle could have gotten a
Bug on Board when the car first took off.

>The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so
>obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs.  Just
>look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used:

I will deal with your nits in a second.  First, I will argue with
your gripe about plot.  WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PLOT TO BE, A BLIPPING
ROMANCE?  It's an adventure/suspense, Scott, not a Miss America
Pageant!  They did write in a few stupid mistakes on the part of Our
Heroes.  They also wrote in some pretty good character development,
believable dialogue, and very good and consistent background info.

>If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout.  They
>wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc.
>To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores
>Ripley's warning.  Why?  Here's a trusted (in command of a
>multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57
>year space trip to bring a warning to the Company.  Can't the
>Company at least try to confirm her story?  No, because that means
>the marines would go in prepared.  And what happened to the
>indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the
>Aliens in the first place?

NO armor would have worked.  The only substance we've seen which
isn't dissolved by alien-blood is alien-hide.  They DID take "the
right kind of weapons" as evidenced by the fact that they KILLED
THEM EASILY.  They didn't trust Ripley because her story was utterly
unbelievable, just the sort of thing they would expect of someone
who was hiding the real truth.  They DID check up on the story, as
everyone else who saw the film was able to tell.  And they had no
records, for whatever reason, that the Nostromo had encountered the
aliens.  The indications in the earlier story were that SOMEONE in
the Company higher-ups was hoping for something in the way of
bioweaponry to come out of this.  Failure, coverup, no trace in the
records.  It fits nicely, thank you.  You are complaining now that
we have MORE information that it doesn't fit your speculations?

>If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up
>the place and the story's over.  So the marines do two *idiotic*
>things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and
>take everyone to the surface.

Once again, the shuttle didn't STAY on the ground, they landed
later.  Taking everyone to the surface, well, I wouldn't have done
it that way, but maybe the Company could only get one unit of
Marines, since they seemed to think they (the marines) were
invulnerable and no "bugs" were as tough as they.  Whatever the
excuse, I agree that there ought to have been backup.

>It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair
>unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build
>their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear
>reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more
>appropriately.

The aliens built their lair in a warm, secluded place where the
humans didn't go very often, where there was a convenient tunnel
leading to the larder (colony) nearby.  As for the marines not
retreating, THAT is clearly due to the ineptitude of the green
lieutenant.  They DID change to more appropriate armaments.

>In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly
>sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines
>would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics.  And even if they were once,
>wouldn't they catch on sooner or later?

The humans were not blind to 3-d tactics, they thought they had
closed off the roof accesses.  The aliens just had a few holes into
the area the humans didn't know about.  They DID catch on,
eventually.

>In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we
>make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna.
>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a
>beacon on automatic.  Second, if we can build an android
>indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI
>personality on board the orbital ship?  Third, why does Bishop have
>to pilot using a keyboard and joystick?  He doesn't have a remote
>plug or radio link built in?

First question: landing on automatic under ideal conditions is
different from landing under nasty weather with ionization from
atmospheric muck.  The human pilot nearly botched it on her landing.
Automatics would have the same problems.  Probably Bishop had to
recover control of the ship when it came through the ionization
layer.  Second question: who knows?  Maybe the ship computers WERE
AI personalities, but not programmed to handle atmospheric landings?
The problem of backups on the ship WAS a major flaw in the script.
Third question: Why doesn't he have a built-in plug: who knows?  He
didn't, Ripley didn't either; if androids are indistinguishable from
humans...

>And this just goes on and on.  It's like a cheap horror film where
>sixteen people have been killed in the basement and the heroine
>decides to check it out in her nightgown and one flickering candle.
>At some point you have to say "C'mon!".  I didn't think *Alien* was
>too bad in this respect, but *Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated
>movie-making.

No, this is exactly the opposite.  At no point did Ripley, Hicks, or
Newt forget that they were in danger.  The Yuppie From Hell was too
caught up in his profits to realize that he could be hurt, until it
was too late, and the others were grunts, acting in time-honored
military grunt style.

The point is this: Ripley doesn't want to go there.  She has the
shuddering horrors at the thought of what the Bugs are like.  She
decides to purge this by going along, to save SOMETHING from them.
The marines start out overconfident, sneering at the descriptions
Ripley gives them, and after the standard rewards of hubris, they
realize how nasty the bugs really are.  Yes, Murphy's Law applies,
and the wrong thing happens whenever it is least desirable.
However, the strong characters are all women (even the Queen Bug)
and at no time are we put in the position of the aliens preying on
the humans; there is no rape-fantasy and no
punish-them-for-having-sex like in the Friday the 13th (part 2^n)
movies.  The movie doesn't pretend to be more than a really
horrifying thriller, yet it makes statements implicitly about
humanity, about strength, about human values.  These are almost all
very POSITIVE statements.  Yes, it was almost TOO tense, and yes,
some of the things they did were slightly unbelievable.  This is
true of just about every movie made.  I think ALIENS succeeded
better than ALIEN at what it was trying to do.  The sequel was a
better film than the original.

  Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 13:27:25 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: Music from ALIENS

From:   decwrl!boyajian@akov68.dec.com  1-AUG-1986 12:46
> Knowing Horner (probably the biggest hack in film music), it was
> there because it was also used in the original ALIEN (in the brief
> scene in which Dallas was relaxing by himself in the shuttle), not
> because it was in 2001.

I blush to confess that I blew it here. A few hours after I posted
the above message, I threw on my tape of ALIEN to check out
something, and played the above-mentioned scene. It was *not* the
same music.  I could have sworn it was, though. C'est la guerre.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 15:51:04 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS

From:   sdsioa!brunner  (Rob Brunner)
> What this means is that these wonderful little creatures had to
> come from _somewhere_else_, right?  Could there be YAS (yet
> another sequel)?!?  This one will make enough bucks that they may
> want to sell out and produce another run-of-the-mill ALIENS-III
> type movie.  Too bad, too because I really doubt that they will be
> able to reporoduce the quality of this one or come close to
> another worth anything, film-wise.  They'll end up producing JAS
> (just another sequel: not worth much, but box office bucks).

Surely you jest. First of all, if the studio just wanted to rake in
the bucks, why didn't they film an ALIEN II years ago? As a matter
of fact, they had planned a sequel soon after the first film's
success was assured, but they didn't want to rush it with just any
old script and any old director.  What convinced 20th Century Fox to
foot the bill for this movie (when they weren't sure that a
seven-year later sequel would be financially viable) was that it had
a strong script, and James Cameron proved himself capable of a good
action movie with THE TERMINATOR.

It's certainly true that ALIENS will probably rake in more dough
than the first film did, but ALIEN was no piker either.  It's
grossed over $100 million in theatrical showings, it was one of the
first videocassettes to get a gold record for sales, and it was one
of the elite few, I believe, that won a platinum record.

While I may have to eat my words later, I really do believe that Fox
won't do YAS unless they have a worthwile product.  Besides, no one
would have believed that *this* film could have been nearly as good
as the original, and many people feel that it's *better*.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 86 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #230
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 230

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 14:15:11 GMT
From: wall@boves.dec.com
Subject: Aliens -- spoliers, discussion

Scott writes:
>Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been
>pretty lame.  And why are they all cast as "refutations"?  I'm not
>Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply
>to argue.

As the man in the sketch said, if I argue with you, I must take up a
contrary position.

>The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either
>postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie
>or refer to the book.  Personally I feel that the movie has to
>stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to
>a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious
>intention to explain away problems in the movie.

Aliens was an adventure story, not a treatise on the technology that
made interstellar commerce feasible.  I am not quite sure what basis
for these things you wanted other than seeing it on the screen.  I'm
interested in hearing, though.  As for the novelization being
written after the movie, that depends on what you mean by "after".
If you mean after someone finished a screenplay draft, okay, but I
saw the novelization in my Walden Books before the movie's release
date.

>And as far as making up explanations - like "people get sick in
>hyperspace so they need to be put in freeze" - well, I guess that's
>the business of sf and we can all do that all night.  Doesn't make
>the holes in the movie go away, though.

Again, the holes are a mater of perception.  You thought there were
holes in the movie because they didn't provide explanations for a
lot of things.  I will submit again that those would be holes in the
story only if Aliens was a movie about the technology of
interstellar travel.  I don't believe that was the story, any more
than it was the point of the first story.  Both of these movies were
people stories -- I saw no claim to their being hard science
fiction.

As for the individual explanations:

>Deep Sleep.  There's little or no indication in the movie that the
>ships have hyperspace capability.  Surely the escape pod from the
>Nostromo didn't, and it had the same kind of sleep pod.  If you are
>willing to grant hyper- space, though, you can make up all sorts of
>reasons for using deep sleep (see above).

True -- there is no mention of such things as a hyperdrive, jump
space, or anything of that sort.  However, the script may have just
assumed that moviegoers were intelligent enough to known that
interstellar commerce would require some FTL travel mechanism.  As
for the escape pod, Ripley did not expect to make it back to Earth
in it -- she expected to cross a shipping lane and be picked up.
Burke makes some reference to "the core systems" but there's no
guarantee of where that is.

>As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space,
>I see several objections.  First of all, in a deep space craft you
>can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like
>oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the
>battle structure.  You just hook a container of LOX on the outside.
>Second, why waste all the time during the journey?  Why not use the
>time to prepare for the coming mission?  This is an emergency
>rescue, after all.  Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in
>using deep sleep.  Would you be willing to let yourself be
>frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days?  Not me.

Stick consumable supplies outside of the battle structure?  Exposed
to interstellar radiation, the enemy's weapons, space barnacles :-).
LOX is pretty hazardous stuff.  I wouldn't want my warships to have
a liquid bomb right out there where everybody can shoot at it.

Why waste the time?  Gee, I would've thought resting and conserving
energy was a pretty good way to prepare for a lot of hard and
potentially dangerous work, as opposed to sitting around and
waiting.

And yes, deep sleep is dangerous, but The Company is a business, not
a rest home.  Flight officers get paid for this sort of thing.  If
you won't do it, then we'll find someone who will.  As for the
Marines, they do what they're told.

>Mumblety-Peg.  Urrgh.  Everyone replied that "Bishop was fully
>aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson".  Not so!  Bishop cut
>his own hand, remember?  Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand,
>remember?  Therefore, Bishop could very well have cut Hudson's
>hand, right?  Therefore, Bishop should never have played the game
>in the first place, right?

We don't know Bishop is an android until after he does that, do we.
True, he goes into that Asimovian diatribe about not letting humans
come to harm, but harm is a subjective concept and Bishop may have
thought that cracking Hudson's agates a little might have been just
what he needed.

>Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters.  Yes, I was aware that
>the "thermal overload" was already underway.  That DOESN'T mean
>that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte
>blanche fashion.  If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor
>that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last
>thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten
>the process.

Those were two completely different situations.  After the initial
encounter, it was a case of shoot and you might die.  Don't shoot
and you will die.  Pretty simple choice.  Remember, the Marines and
Burke were unconvinced as to the lethality of these things until
they started to die.  In that timeframe, it made less sense to be
able to shoot until it was demonstrated what they were up against.

>Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform.  Justify this all you want.
>Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at
>this point.  It makes no sense at all.  There is too much wind
>inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform?
>Yeah, THAT seems likely.  And I said hover NEAR the platform, not
>OVER the platform.  I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and
>I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the
>platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left
>the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie-
>making) to have the craft hovering out of sight.  And how would
>Bishop know when to return?  And why didn't he return immediately?

It wasn't completely enclosed, and the weather there was nasty.  As
for Bishop, he'd know when to come back when the dropship's sensors
said Ripley was back.  Why didn't he come back immediately?  You got
me.  Falling debris or difficulty maneuvering the ship strike me as
the likely reasons.

>Cheap Movie Making.  Ripley's dream.  Need I say more?  How cheap
>can you get?

Having ten feet of malignant, armor-plated killing machine make a
concerted effort to waste me would give me nightmares.

>Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle.  Please don't blame
>this on the incompetent commander.  He wasn't even there.  At any
>rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after
>they've survived a few missions.  They have protocols beaten in to
>them, and they follow them.  In a large part, that's what makes
>them survive.

Perhaps dropship crews have things they are supposed to be doing
while waiting to pick up their teams.  Again, Aliens is not a film
version of a military manual.

>The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so
>obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs.  Just
>look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used:

I don't quite see the reason for this objection.  People who set out
to tell suspense/adventure stories frequently tailor the plots to
the needs of a suspense/adventure story, do they not?  Maybe I
should ask here if you thought Aliens was going to be something
other than a suspense/adventure story.  Perhaps what you mean to say
that it was all very contrived?  Well, let's press on.

>If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout.  They
>wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc.
>To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores
>Ripley's warning.  Why?  Here's a trusted (in command of a
>multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57
>year space trip to bring a warning to the Company.  Can't the
>Company at least try to confirm her story?  No, because that means
>the marines would go in prepared.  And what happened to the
>indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the
>Aliens in the first place?

The marines went in as prepared as they could be.  Acid resistant
armor?  The acid eats through starship hulls.  Where are they gonna
get acid resistant armor?  As for the Company ignoring Ripley's
warning, they ignore it because there have been people on this rock
for twenty years and have never seen so much as an empty egg.  Why
believe her?  Particularly when believing her would mean having to
admit to all their previous maneuverings, not to mention sending
families to this place without telling them.  And losing the chance
at the biological weapons sales.  Seems like a pretty accurate
portrayal of ruthless corporate mentality to me.  Maybe they aren't
all like that, but this one is.  As for Ripley, she's obviously a
character with a conscience, but I imagine she just wanted to get
the hell out of there more than bringing a warning to the Company.

>If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up
>the place and the story's over.  So the marines do two *idiotic*
>things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and
>take everyone to the surface.

I've already given a couple of things about the landing craft.  As
for taking everyone to the surface, who do you suggest they leave
behind?  One of the combat troops?  What sort of Marine would
volunteer to stay behind -- these people like to fight.  One of the
techs?  No, we need their technical skills on the planet.  The
company rep, Burke?  So what.  If something goes wrong, he can't fly
a dropship, anyhow.  The dropship pilot?  No, we only got one.  An
extra is just dead weight if this is just a milk run, and dead
weight is money.

>It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair
>unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build
>their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear
>reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more
>appropriately.

There's nothing in the movie to suggest that aliens' food source was
a long way from their lair.  Perhaps you could be more specific on
this point?  As for retreating and rearming, we saw that their
commander was about as sharp as a marble, and cracking beneath the
strain.

>In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly
>sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines
>would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics.  And even if they were once,
>wouldn't they catch on sooner or later?

I fail to see how this made the firefights any easier -- good
firefights are easier to have in wide open spaces.  And yes, I
suppose they would catch on eventually, but if you're good enough at
sneaking up on people, you can pull it off even though they know
you're good at sneaking up on people.

>In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we
>make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna.
>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a
>beacon on automatic.  Second, if we can build an android
>indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI
>personality on board the orbital ship?  Third, why does Bishop have
>to pilot using a keyboard and joystick?  He doesn't have a remote
>plug or radio link built in?

Land on automatic in that wind?  In that atmosphere?  In all those
obstacles?  I don't think so, but I can't be positive.  There was an
AI personality on board the ship, but it didn't know anything was
wrong, and perhaps no one has taught it to fly dropships, just
prepare them.  As for Bishop having a computer link built in, he was
proto-organic, and besides, where would you get the power for such a
thing?

Well, here's my humble attempt to provide a decent argument.  Anyone
else willing to give it another shot?

David F. Wall
Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, Marlboro, MA
UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves,gaynes}.dec.com!wall
        or !decvax::{boves,gaynes}::wall
ARPA: wall%{boves,gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 15:35:37 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS (Jones)

From:   bambi!steve     (Steve Miller)
> And let's not forget about Jones the cat.  Maybe
> Ripley and Newt will return to an Earth that's crawling with the
>things.

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Why is it that so many people assume that the cat has been infected?
And now they're speculating that maybe Newt, Hicks, or even Bishop
are as well! Give me strength.

Let's take another look at ALIEN---

Kane gets attacked by the face-hugger. It puts him in a coma for,
oh, let's guestimate a day (based on the amount of time they'd
probably take examining Kane, fixing the ship, blasting off, etc.).
Then, the little sucker drops off, but Kane stays in a coma for
hours, possibly another day. Once he awakens from his coma, it's
about another hour or less before he, ah, gives birth. So---

(1) Jones can't be infected. Ripley only left him alone for 15
minutes or less. There was no indication that the carrier had been
tampered with (the Bugs were not exactly known for covering their
tracks), and Jones was not unconscious. And in the time (which was
likely weeks or months) that Ripley and Jones spent at Gateway
Station before she went back to Acheron, Jones had not died giving
birth to an Bug. Now, I'll grant that the cycle may well change
because a cat's metabolism is different than a human's, but it isn't
*that* different.

(2) Newt can't be infected. She was only away from Ripley for, at
most, a half-hour. When Ripley finds her, she (Newt) was being
threatened by a face-hugger. I doubt that a species as efficient as
the Aliens is going to "waste" a face-hugger on an
already-impregnated host. The same argument applies if one tries to
argue that she was infected before the rescuers got there (aside
from the fact that she spends too much time with them without a
chest-burster appearing). Also, even motivated by "revenge", the
Queen Bug is not going to try to kill an impregnated host; she'd be
more likely to let Newt live to possibly infect the rest of the
survivors.

(3) Hicks is not impregnated. Like Newt, he was only out of Ripley's
presence for, at most, a half-hour. Even if Bishop, like Ash, was a
Company rat and purposely infected Hicks, he wouldn't have been able
to remove the face-hugger to hide the evidence before Ripley got
back.

(4) Bishop couldn't be infected (whether accidentally or
self-inflicted). Even if we accept the fact that the embryo could
survive in a synthetic host, that Bishop could be immune to the
coma-producing effect, and that Bishop could remove the face-hugger
from his own face --- even if we were to accept all that --- half
his guts were spilled out on the landing bay of the Sulaco. How
could he successfully hide the embryo in that case?

The other argument against Bishop being a Company rat is the fact
that in the scene in which Ripley tells him to destroy the
face-huggers in the Med-lab after he was through with them, Bishop
very openly tells her that Burke told him to pack them for transport
back home. If he was attempting to sneak (or help sneak) the Bugs
back home, why would he tell this to Ripley? That could sabotage his
subterfuge. Even if he figured that he could insure that she didn't
reach Earth alive, there would have been no advantage in telling her
and all the advantage in *not* telling her.

Not that there isn't a hook left open for yet another sequel.
There's still the derelict ship full of eggs. I really would have
liked to see an epilogue of sorts in which Ripley enters the
derelict's coordinates into the battle computer and nukes the
derelict from orbit. Or course, there'd still be the original source
world for the Bugs...

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 86 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #231
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 231

Today's Topics:

            Books - Pringle & Williamson & Celtic Myths,
            Films - Lensman & Beyond Thunderdome,
            Television - Star Trek (5 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 02:27:11 GMT
From: gouvea@h-sc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea)
Subject: Pringle's "100 Best sf Novels"

I've just finished reading David Pringle's "Science Fiction: The 100
Best Novels" (Carrol&Graf, hardcover), and feel it is worth comment
(and may generate some debate).  The book is clearly inspired by
Anthony Burgess' recent "Ninety-Nine Novels" (a much better title,
that), and consists of small essays on 100 sf novels published
between 1949 and 1984.

Any book of this kind will certainly be controversial, and Pringle
has therefore hedged his bets carefully. His introduction includes
the disclaimer that he really doesn't consider all of the novels he
includes to be that good (which also becomes clear from the essays
about the books in question), but that he has included them because
the author is important, or popular, or a good short story writer
who would be short-changed from not being included.  The last point
really points out a defect in the original conception of the book;
an appendix on exceptional short story collections would probably
have done more justice to such authors, sparing them from having
their novels discussed in terms of "this isn't really that good, but
the short stories are something else", and would have allowed the
inclusion of authors like Harlan Ellison, who have not written any
novels.

As to the selection itself, it is not as predictable as one might
think.  The only Asimov book included is "The End of Eternity" (a
poor choice, I would think), and that with an essay saying
(essentially) that it is not any good.  Heinlein is represented by
"The Puppet Masters", "The Door Into Summer", and "Have Space
Suit--Will Travel" (I would omit the first two and include "The Moon
is a Harsh Mistress" instead).  Lots of British authors are
represented (perhaps predictably): John Wyndham (twice), William
Golding, John Christopher, Brian Aldiss (three times), J. G. Ballard
(four times), etc.

Some selections strike me as just plain strange: Mack Reynolds'
"Looking Backward, From the Year 2000", for example.  Pringle has
evidently made an effort to represent as many kinds of sf as
possible, and it sometimes is painfully evident that he doesn't like
some books at all (the Asimov, Niven and Pournelle's "Oath of
Fealty").  He has produced a book that is irritating at times, but
fun to read and to discuss.

What sort of book would most sf readers include on such a list?  I
can't help but feel the list wouldn't look at all like Pringle's.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 06:19:26 GMT
From: fair@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Erik E. Fair)
Subject: Re: Asimov's 1st Law and Aliens

Jack Williamson wrote a series of SF stories (collectively dubbed
`the Humanoids') about what happens to the human race when they
create robots with something akin to Asimov's 3 laws of Robotics (I
believe it was called the `Prime Directive' in Williamson's stories)
taken to extreme. Basically, humans aren't allowed to do *anything*
because of the potential for harm...

Erik E. Fair
ucbvax!fair
fair@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 31 Jul 1986 10:01:55-PDT
From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Celtic myths

On the subject of Celtic myths, the book "The Land Beyond the Gate", 
by Lloyd Arthur Eshbach is an interesting treatment of Scottish myths
related to the Celts and the Sidhe. I am not sure that it is true to
the myths, but as I said, it is an interesting treatment.

kevin routley

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 19:54:56 GMT
From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix)
Subject: Re: books into films

sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) writes:
>Well, if you want quantity and variety I suggest Smith's "Lensman".
>Mental, beam, flying, and other effects needed.  Sheer scale of the
>needed effects probably still makes it impossible.  I suppose they
>could start with the first books and worry later about how to show
>galactic fleet maneuvers and alternate universes.  Or did you want
>something with a real plot?

You probably don't want to hear this, but E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman
has already hit the silver screen and then gone on to a tv series.
Yep, that's right, Japan.  There was a major animated movie called
"Galactic Patrol Lensman" released in the last two years (lots of
computer animation---you should have seen the "Britannia"), which
was followed by a l-year long Lensman ("Renusumanu") tv programme,
minus the computer animation, except in the credit sequence.
Reportedly, ratings were bad (and they made Worzel look rather, uh,
insectoid (is this the "Worzel, old snake" I remember?)).

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 17:39:23 GMT
From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson)
Subject: Chivalry towards children

>    Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters."  The
>film introduces a child character.  It is a serious mistake
>because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin to
>chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic
>characters like children....

     In Beyond Thunderdome there were lots of "weak and sympathetic"
kids; at least one of them got swallowed up by a sinkhole in the
desert.  I had been thinking that the movie would be typically sappy
about munchkins and pull a deus ex machina (or a deus ex Max anyway)
to rescue him, and they didn't.  I wouldn't say it was reassuring,
but I was impressed that they actually went thru with it.  However,
if they were going to be "realistic" about that sort of thing, I
think it would have been a stronger movie if more than one child
died.  But then, I believe the overall body count for Beyond
Thunderdome was considerably below the previous entries (just an
impression; I haven't been counting).

Karen Christenson
...!dartvax!chelsea

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 16:57:06 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>. . . If any one thing is the center, it's the Enterprise, which
>>is why I felt so cheated when they destroyed it, but that's
>>another story.
>
>I'd be interested to hear in what way(s) you think of it as the
>centre.

"These are the voyages of the starship _Enterprise_ . . . "
Indicative, no?

>My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course.  It's
>possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see
>that coming for ST.  Unless they can do something significant with
>a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying.

   I disagree that it has run its course.  The STAR TREK universe
and concept have room for almost unlimited potential.  Much has been
realized, but I'm sure that much more has not.

pH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 86 01:28:40 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series

From: George Lindeberg <gel@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
>     David did not die to save Spock; he attacked the Klingon just
>as Savik (?sp) was about to be killed.  Recall that the Klingon
>walked behind Spock and David and then paused behind Savik and
>clicked open the knife.  It was at this point that David jumped the
>Klingon.  This is also quite clear in the book version of ST III.
>I think that Savik qualifies as one of the "new" characters.

Close: it's "Saavik".  Personally, I thought her part in STII, and
her portrayal by Kirstee Allie, did a great deal more to qualify
her.  They made her genuinely interesting.  The only genuinely
interesting character I saw in STIII was the Klingon warlord, and I
doubt if we'll see him again.

I haven't read the book, so I may be missing something, but my
strong impression was that David, not knowing which of the three of
them was about to get the knife, was barely controlling himself; and
then, hearing the hilts of the knife click, he panicked and sprang.
Looking at that scene, I could not be certain behind whom the
Klingon actually stopped; besides, all three were within easy reach,
no matter where he stood.  Perhaps in the book it's more obvious.
But from what I saw of David on the Genesis planet, the heroism to
save somebody else was not in him.  He was pretty much a milksop.
We know it was in her, though, from the scene in STII where she
tackled him around the knees to knock him from a line of fire.

But I suppose it comes to the same thing in the end, doesn't it?
"I'll tak' the high road, and ye'll tak' the low road..."

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 86 02:01:40 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2001 and Star Trek observations

From: omen!caf@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
>Many times when I play my LaserDisc of 2001, I play the Blue Danube
>sequence (earth->station, station->moon) and nothing else.

I am green with envy!  To possess a laser disc of 2001!  To be able
to listen to all that wonderful music and look at that magnficent
production at will!  Actually, it's funny you should pick "Blue
Danube" as an example: for itself, I would listen to it perhaps once
a year: pleasant, but not terribly prepossessing; but in that scene,
I can listen to it almost endlessly.  At times it does almost seem
as if the shuttle and the station are partners in a dance.

>Likewise, I sometimes play the "V'ger approach/flyby" because I
>like that part.  An "outer space" classical music video, if you
>will.

Thank-you!  Sometimes I think I am the only person who saw that film
who loved that sequence.  I find it very imaginative and creative --
and rather mind stretching, in making it very clear that V'ger
overwhelmed the Enterprise, not so very long after we'd been given a
strong impression (in the spacedock) that the Enterprise herself was
very big.  It seemed only appropriate that the bridge crew should be
overawed by what they saw, although it's true I prefer being awed
myself to staring at somebody else being awed.  But I would not have
a second cut from that sequence!  Why tell a story in film, if
you're not going to take advantage of what that medium alone can do?

>STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of
>a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in
>1980.  The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space
>operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical
>issues.

I certainly agree about STTMP looking at the question.  I would go
even farther, and say it addressed the question in a context of
direct, immediate importance to one of the film's central
characters.  Though to call any of the Star Treks serious science
fiction is, I think, pressing it.

I'm not sure I can agree with the second statement, though.  II and
III certainly "raised" the question of whether it's possible to have
too much power, and whether even the ability virtually to create
life is necessarily a good thing.  If you wish to protest, though,
that they did little to explore the question, I will quite agree.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 86 02:30:54 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek I objections

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
>I had so hoped that they'd have included the scene where Kirk
>argues to take command of the Enterprise, but Noooooooooo!  They
>probably didn't want to pay the actor who played the unseen
>admiral.

Why bother?  What would this tell you that you didn't know already?
You know Kirk is obsessed with regaining Enterprise, that he will
shoot fleet regulations, discipline, and anything else all to hell
to get her, and that he does in fact do so, walking all over Decker,
and then permitting him a breach of discipline which no commanding
officer should tolerate.  I can't imagine what you would expect to
see in such a scene.  Whether the meeting did in fact last no more
than 3 minutes?  Who cares?  What they said to each other?  What
does it matter?  That his selfishness and disobedience must make him
one of the most useless admirals in the fleet?  That's pretty clear
already.

>What they should have done to make the tape a win was to edit out
>the slow passage through V'Ger (or at least a lot of it).  I could
>have done without the Ooh-Ahh-Oh looks from the crew, too.

Thank you, **NO**.  I've already addressed this in another posting,
so I'll keep this short.  Edit *your* copy, if you must, but leave
me to enjoy mine (not that I actually have one).

Sometimes I think people would edit the Grand Canyon, if they could
work out how. "Too long, nothing happens".

>As a side comment, a Turkish friend of mine saw the film.  She had
>seen the series back in Turkey (this might have been really funny,
>seeing the show with all the voices in Turkish :-).  When the movie
>was over, she asked me how I could watch such sh**.  Hmmm, should I
>answer that?  :-)

Why would Turks find Turkish voices funny?  "The Avengers" dubbed in
French certainly wasn't; the scene in "The Prisoner"'s titles where
he cries "I am not a number, I am a free man" was chilling, in
French or English.

Show her "The Terminator" or the Conan films for context, or perhaps
"Gremlins" (or, if she is too good a friend for that, spare her, and
just tell her about them).  I expect she'll understand the situation
better after that.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 01:24:50 GMT
From: omen!caf@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
Subject: Re: Star Trek I  (was new TV series)

MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>>STTMP was a serious science fiction movie, addressing questions of
>>a possible computer-aided human evolution, an interesting topic in
>>1980.  The 2nd and 3rd movies are, by comparision, mere space
>>operas that don't raise any particularly interesting philosophical
>>issues.
>
>How about mortality?  And honor?

Sure, mortality and honor are valid subjects for dramatic
presentations.  But, they are nowhere unique to STTMP 2 and 3, not
even within ST.  If it's death you wish to contemplate, see ZARDOZ.

The Enterprise has been damaged in a number of episodes, and
important characters have been killed before.

Star Trek has a real "problem" with death.  It is an acceptable way
of disposing of some of Kirk's lovers, but anyone worth his weight
in energy can be recreated in a transporter, as was done in one of
the novels.

Recall, I said "interesting" philosophical issues.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 02:36:54 GMT
From: epimass!jbuck@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

tim@gort.UUCP (Timothy Thomas) writes:
>Think about the logic in that.  If we have to rely on somebody in
>the future to help us, then we will wait forever.  If some
>technology is 'invented' or 'found' because of somebody in the
>future sending it to us, that would be a contradiction.  Ok, fine,
>we now have some new tecnology.  So in the future (since it has
>already happened), we send it back to ourselves again.  Where did
>it originate???  There is no way any new knowledge from the future
>can enter into the present or past because of this knowledge must
>originate someplace, or be found (found meaning discovered on its
>own or invented, not handed to by some future scientist).

Why would it be a contradiction?  Causal loops are certainly
strange, but they can be drawn on a Minkowski space-time diagram
easily enough.  "Contradiction" means that the statements "A" and
"not A" are both true.  For example, going back in time and killing
my (younger) self cause a contradiction, where A is the statement "I
exist at time t".  But you're stating "knowledge must originate
someplace (and time)?"  as a postulate; it's not an axiom of logic.
It only contradicts intuition.

Joe Buck
Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California
{ihnp4!pesnta,oliveb,nsc!csi}!epimass!jbuck

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 86 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #232
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 232

Today's Topics:

              Books - McIntyre & Sturgeon & Wheeler &
                      Author Request & Tarot,
              Films - Maximum Overdrive & The Transformers &
                      Warriors of the Wind & The Demolished Man &
                      Silent Running,
              Television - Star Trek (4 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) &
                      SF Erotica (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 20:20:20 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

farren@hoptoad.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes:
>Vonda McIntyre's next Star Trek novel (all of which are excellent,
>by the way) will be "Star Trek - the Initial Voyage of the Starship
>Enterprise", or at least something close to that.  Definitely will
>be about the beginnings of the Enterprise's fame (although I don't
>know if it's the first voyages of the ship, or the first voyages of
>Kirk et al.)

The title will be "Star Trek - The First Voyage" and will be about
the first voyage (obviously!).  This is therefore _PRIOR_ to "Where
No Man Has Gone Before" i.e.: Gary Myers (is that right?), No. One,
_Lt. Commander_ Spock, no McCoy, et. al.

In the Star Trek Novel (#30, if you're interested) called "Demons",
there is an excerpt in the back from the new McIntyre novel.
"Demons" is worth buying just for that one excerpt (besides the fact
that it is one of the best of the new novels!).

Hope this helps!

Randy Goldberg

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 05:52:18 GMT
From: hoptoad!gnu@caip.rutgers.edu (John Gilmore)
Subject: Other viewpoints on incest

[SFL folks: net.singles has been talking about the supreme court and
the topic has broadened to incest and beastiality.]

A very interesting viewpoint on incest is that expressed by Theodore
Sturgeon in his story "If all men were brothers, would you let one
marry your sister?".  This appeared in the first _Dangerous Visions_
book, edited by Harlan Ellison.  It supposes an isolated society
which practices incest and imagines some of the other effects of
this.  I won't spoil the story by telling you what he says -- he's
better at it anyway.

John Gilmore
{sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu
jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 03:07:44 GMT
From: utastro!wheel@caip.rutgers.edu (Craig Wheeler)
Subject: A new book!

I have written a science adventure novel called "THE KRONE
EXPERIMENT."  It's being published by Pressworks Publishing, Inc. of
Dallas and should be available in October.  We are collecting blurbs
for the jacket now.  John Archibald Wheeler says "--- a gripping
science fiction story."  Tom Clancy, author of "The Hunt for Red
October" says "A Thriller, a detective story, and a brilliant piece
of scientific speculation; this is a uniquely intelligent novel."
Eleanor York, Carl Sagan's assistant (he was busy (-:), says "--- a
ripping good read with well-developed and interesting characters and
plenty of suspense."

Look for it in October, and let me know what you think of it.

Craig Wheeler

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 21:57:54 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Zelaznarii?

It is apparent that among the followers of Roger Zelazny are Steve
Brust (self-admitted in this group) and William Gibson (refs to Isle
of the Dead in Neuromancer and more obscurely in Count Zero;
inspiration from Coils).  Now if those three wrote enough to keep me
in fiction I would be very happy.  But they don't.  So my question:
are there any more authors like these that I might have missed?

I'm specifically not looking for cyberpunks (as might be guessed
from the fact that Zelazny and Brust have written quite varied works
almost all of which don't fall into that category).  I'm looking for
writers whose writing fits in a particular range of styles that I
know I like.

If this seems a little vague to you, it is to me too...  But at
least it's not yet another message about Aliens or LOTR...

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 16:33:34 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Has this been done?

And let us not forget the wonderful _Chronicles of Amber_ by R.
Zelazny.

It does not deal with Tarot directly, But they're involved!

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 04:38:57 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Maximum Overdrive = Maximum Dumb!

> Can't imagine why King allowed such a DUMB movie to be made.  Poor
> acting, unbelievable situations, the only good thing about the
> show was the music by AC/DC.

"Allowed," hell, he *MADE* the thing!  He came on in the coming
attraction and said how no one had ever done his stories right, so
we would just have to do it himself.  So he wrote *and* directed
MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE.  I haven't seen it, but if you want to blame
someone, blame King.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 02:02:02 GMT
From: genat!phoenix@caip.rutgers.edu (phoenix)
Subject: Leonard Nimoy and Orson Welles in an Animated Movie

In a movie being released by Marvel Productions (the comic book
company) and Sunbow Productions (American name for the Japanimation
company Toei Doga) in Canada on August 8th, Leonard Nimoy and the
late Orson Welles have starring (voice) roles.  The movie is "The
Transformers-The Movie", based on the Hasbro series of toys and tv
programme.  Also starring in the movie (voice) are: Eric Idle, Judd
Nelson, Robert Stack, Lionel Stander.  Any one wanting further info,
e-mail me.  This looks like having a frightfully short run, so if
you are interested, see it fast.  I wonder how long Hasbro's been
keeping this movie on ice (Orson Welles died when?); Hasbro will
release no movie before its time...

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 13:54:03 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Warriors of the Wind

   To the people who were trying to find Warriors of the Wind on
videotape: HBO will be showing Warriors of the Wind this month.

Watch it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 15:24:19 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: incipient movie of THE DEMOLISHED MAN

   Several years ago there were rumblings that Brian dePalma had the
rights to this. The thought of dePalma directing TDM after what he
did to CARRIE (which is actually a tolerable SF novel, unlike much
of his later, more formulaic horror), and his general predilection
for senseless, bloody spectacle, appalled me, and I've been glad not
to hear anything more in that direction.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 20:10:55 GMT
From: tekig5!chrisa@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song

daveb@rtech.UUCP (Dave Brower) writes:
>Silent Running, 1971, Douglas Trumbull's directorial debut, gets
>*** from Maltin's "Movies on TV."  I think that's overrated.

I personally think this is one of the best movies ever made.  It's
one of the few that has ever actually brought me to tears.  Even
after seeing it several times I still feel a lump in my throat when
Dern blows up the ship.  Some may think that the heavy pro-ecology
tone was too much, but I really felt for the character Bruce Dern
played (someone said that Dern would like to forget this role, I
think he should be very proud of it.)

My mailbox is always willing to accept letters.

Yours in better understanding,
Chris Andersen (chrisa@tekig5)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 86 21:38:09 GMT
From: casey!donna@caip.rutgers.edu (Donna Hrynkiw)
Subject: Menagerie - Who's Keeper's voice?

Does anyone know who's voice is used in dubbing over "The Keeper" in
the episode "The Menagerie"?  I know the voice used in the original
"The Cage" was Malachi Throne.  But, when he joined the cast in "The
Menagerie" they had to redo it with someone else.  (Can't have the
same person's voice in one episode.)  Throne played Commodore
Mendez.

I did an interview with actress Meg Wyllie who played the Keeper,
and even SHE doesn't know.  Anyone who knows, should mail to me as
soon as possible.  When you send your answer, could you please
specify the SOURCE of the information.  Accuracy in the answer is
very important as this interview will go in STARLOG.

** unabashed plug ** Four guest stars of Star Trek interviews will
appear in Starlog #112.  They are: Bruce Hyde, Sean Kenney, Craig
Hundley, and Lee Bergere.  This will be a 20th Anniversary of Star
Trek issue.  I had lots of fun doing them, and hope you like them.

Frank Garcia
....!ubc-vision!casey!comm59
comm59@casey.kwantlen.bcc.cdn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 10:35 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Star Trek new TV series
Cc: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)

Catherine: Gee, they could have the characters from the Tradition,
my ST club, too.  Our motto is "Nostra Navis Omne Praeceptum
Frangit" -- Our ship breaks every rule.

The Capt'n sits in the command chair and knits; the navigator uses a
sexton, compass, and Thomas Bros. maps, and has been, unwillingly,
promoted to First Officer; our Personnel Officer is the result of a
transporter accident, a half-Vulcan, half-Horta; we have a Security
ensign who wears fake pointed ears in an attempt at disguise and an
Engineer whose pet project requires copper tubing and potatoes.  We
could have some copyright problems, though, as our Star Trek
universe often blends a bit, with Traditional visitors and crew from
Doctor Who, Dallas, Star Wars, Sherlock Holmes, and other odd
corners of the space time continuum.

I think our ship's should meet sometime.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 15:31:24 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: ST script quality

>Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that.  Mostly, it
>needs M*A*S*H's writers.  They proved that it is in fact physically
>possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing.  Star Trek
>occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its
>writing: but that wasn't difficult.  Frequently it didn't.

I don't know that M*A*S*H's writers would help. Much of the best
material on ST came from SF writers---some primarily media types
(Bloch, Bixby), some crossovers (Ellison), some primarily story
writers (Sturgeon) and even some from outside the trade altogether
(Gerrold, at least for "Trouble with Tribbles") Mundanes who have
tried to write SF stories commonly either step too timidly, or think
there are no rules and make a mess. But it may be easier to improve
the imagination of somebody who writes about people instead of icons
than it is to get a hack to write something good.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 20:36:57 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Star Trek Trivia

Have you ever noticed, during the bridge scene following the solar
system fly-through in STTMP, the vaguely familiar music playing over
Kirk's login?  You have three guesses.

That's it. It most certainly _IS_ the theme from the original
series.  Next question: Do you know the words thereto?

"Beyond the rim of the starlight
"My love is wand'ring in starflight
"He'll find in far off, starry reaches
"Love strange love a star woman teaches
"konw his journey ends never
"His STAR TEK will go on forever
"But tell him as he sails his starry sea
"Tell him remember, rememeber me!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 86 21:36:05 cdt
From: caip!ihnp4!mmm!cipher (Andre Guirard)
To: floyd!caip!nike!kaufman
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

you write:
>mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes:
>>...If you were the one capable of sending something back, what (or
>>who) would it be?
>
>A nuclear bomb.  Something that would, by "appearing" in that time,
>materialize in my grandfather.  A computer & manual, destined for
>T.A. Edison in Menlo Park, NJ.  The plans for "Opertion: Overlord"
>to die F^uhrer's office (excuse the attempt at an umlaut) in
>Berlin.  In general, anything that would cause an identifiable,
>unavoidable mistake in time.  Great way to verify whether we live
>in a "parallel" universe, or a "serial" one (cf. "Thrice Upon a
>Time," by (James P.?) Hogan).

It's a good way to tell if you live in a parallel universe, but it's
not a good way to tell if you live in a serial one, since the
experiment would have a high probability of causing the experimenter
never to have existed, or at least never to have conducted the
experiment.  Better to conduct the experiment on a smaller scale,
then you can be sure that you'll be around to see the results.

It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel
can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because
the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past,
making time travel never to have been discovered.  Knowing how to
travel in time is an unstable situation.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 21:39:08 GMT
From: ulowell!dobro@caip.rutgers.edu (Gryphon)
Subject: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

The subject of multiple time lines was put forth in this story.

Short summary: the existence of an additional type of energy (tau)
is discovered. Seems that this energy is created (no comments :-})
whenever another form of energy is released. This tau energy travels
back in time a distance directly proportional to the amount of
energy. SO, these guys who discovered this (who also happen to be
hackers) design a machine to monitor reception of this type of
energy. Then they experiment by sending forward (sorry, it can go
forward or back, distance proportional ...)  and having the future
people send messages back.

What they came up with is the idea as follows:

Picture a grid board, with a needle/hook/whatever stuck in at each
point.  The 'thread' of relity is strung from point to point.

Now, move the thread in the past and that changes the points it
connects to. But, given enough time (dependend upon the severity of
the change), the 'thread' will head toward its original future. Thus
there is an elasticity to time.

Now, Hogan also came up with what the characters called the 'reset
factor'.  This was basically that certain amounts of tau radiation
will be consantlt jumping back and forward and changing things, even
as minor as the placement of a sigle molecule. But, that can have
unforseen affects. However, once a change is made in the past,
reality is retroactivley reset to hav that as its past. Scary
thought.

Sorry for length, but I think it was a neat idea. I will leave all
else (this contained no real spoilers to plot) to anyone who wishes
to read it.

Comments?

Phone : (617) 937-0551
USMail: P.O.Box 8524, Lowell, Ma. 01853
Usenet: ...!{wanginst,masscomp,apollo}!ulowell!dobro

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 16:51:04 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

>p.s. while we're on the subject, I'm sure that you all know Chris
>Foss (air-brush artist extroadinaire - many book covers, album
>covers, art work for Krypton, Nostromo (in Alien)) but did you know
>that he did the art work for "Joy of Sex"?

Have we all forgotten that master of Fantasy art-work, Boris
Vallego?

It seems to me that a _HELL_ of a lot of his work was pretty risque,
no?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 21:26:45 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF Erotica

In all this discussion of SF erotica, I'm surprised that no one has
mentioned John Norman's "Gor" series.

Then again, maybe I'm not. :-)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 86 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #233
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 233

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 15:58:40 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS (signal beacon)

From:   apple!tomas     (Tom Taylor)
>       Remember the first movie? That old ship looked about a
> million years old. Even the huge alien with the busted out chest
> seemed petrified.  The beacon must have been going thousands of
> years. I doubt it would have given out in just 37 more years.

Ah yes, I once embraced that philosophy. Gee, I've gone 345 miles
already. Surely my car will go another ten, until I can get to an
open gas station, right? Right. So guess what happened.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 16:19:49 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS

From:   ucla-cs!srt     (Scott Turner)
> The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either
> postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie
> or refer to the book.  Personally I feel that the movie has to
> stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to
> a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious
> intention to explain away problems in the movie.

I agree that referring to the book to explain away holes in not
completely cricket, but there's nothing wrong in postulating
explanations. The movie shouldn't have to explain *everything*.
There *should* be things that you have to read between the frames.
In fact, anything that the characters take for granted as part of
their life and work should not have to be explained.  The cold-sleep
for even relatively short durations is one such thing. There may
well be excellent reasons for it that don't occur to us. It might be
just as difficult for a man from the 17th Century to figure out why
we wash apples off before eating them.

I won't argue with you on a point by point basis. Suffice it to say
that I don't agree with many of your objections, and the ones I *do*
agree on (like Ripley's nightmare at the beginning being just a
cheap thrill) I consider nothing more than peccadillos.  However...

> The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so
> obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs.

Funny how that works, isn't it? But then, I remember hearing
somewhere that when you set out to present a suspense/adventure
story, it makes things a lot easier if you construct your plot to
fit suspense/adventure story needs.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 00:22:30 GMT
From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Oooh, A Fight!  A Fight!  (And more _ALIENS_)

>>Personally I feel that the movie has to stand on its own and be
>>internally consistent without reference to a "book" that is
>>written after the movie and with a conscious intention to explain
>>away problems in the movie.
>Bullshit.  Movies are editted and trimmed.  LOTS of stuff is taken
>from them in the interests of tight, interesting storytelling.

That's an interesting stand.  I doubt you'd like a book that
couldn't be interpreted - either from a conceptual or literary
standpoint - without aid of another book. (Except perhaps as
"experimental" literature.)  Movies and books both share some
fundamental storytelling goals.  If a movie (or book) is incomplete
in fulfilling those goals, it is bad storytelling.  Now, did
_Aliens_ fall down in this regard?  That's a judgement call, but I'm
of the opinion that there was too much deus ex machina.

> If they had no FTL of some kind, then how did they get from
> Gateway to Acheron in less than a month?  You tell us, Scott.

If they had FTL, why did they use cold sleep?  Not to save mass, as
you suggest, since normal physics of acceleration don't matter and
17 days of O2 masses considerably less than a room full of sleep
equipment.  You tell us, hutch.

>>Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters.
> Ripley was taking a calculated risk.  Had you been there, I'm sure
> you'd have been bugfood just before the tower went up.  (anyone
> know how to do an alien smiley?)

And had you been there, spraying gunfire, the tower would have gone
up before you'd gotten anywhere near Newt.  I don't object to Ripley
using gunfire as a last resort, but she went in intending to shoot
the place up, which is both dumb and out of character.

How to make an alien smiley: Take two parts gin... aw, never mind.

>>The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so
>>obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs.  Just
>>look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used:
>
>I will deal with your nits in a second.  First, I will argue with
>your gripe about plot.  WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PLOT TO BE, A BLIPPING
>ROMANCE?

I was making a distinction between the story aspect of the movie and
the adventure aspect.  A lot of critics have compared _Aliens_ to a
rollercoaster ride.  I think that aspect is too prominent in the
film, and led the film makers and script writers into some stupid
plot maneuvers.  I could have the same objection to a romance -
having one of the lovers dying of cancer has become a hackneyed
tear-jerker plotting device.  My objection is that the
suspense/adventure part of the film could have been done a lot more
cleverly - I'm sick of stories where the suspense arises out of the
stupidity of the characters.

Why does the commander always have to be an idiot?  Portraying the
military as "dumb" has become de facto since Vietnam.  I'm tired of
it.  It is an easy out for script writers that adds nothing to the
movie.

Question: Would _Aliens_ have been a better movie if the commander
and the marines had been top-notch, made no mistakes and still been
nearly killed by the Aliens (led by a hideously intelligent Queen)?

>NO armor would have worked.  The only substance we've seen which
>isn't dissolved by alien-blood is alien-hide.

Yawn.  Is this the joke about the universal solvent again?  And how
about the specimen jars in the lab?  And you jibe me for being
science ignorant.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 23:50:34 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
> A huge problem with "Alien," "Aliens," "The Thing (remake)," and
> many other films in this genre hasn't ever been mentioned in this
> group (as far as I can tell). You see, for a little organism to
> grow into a big organism it needs BIOMASS. One minute you've got a
> cute li'l chest burster, the next you've got a big lug on the
> lines of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Whaa? WHERE DID THE BIOMASS COME
> FROM??? It's enough to make anyone who's gotten beyond Bio 101
> puke ...

    In the original film _Alien_, the creature has access to the
entire ship.  And food lockers had been broken into. A creature
which can adapt itself to using humans for its propagation should
also be able to make use of the same food humans use by similar
adaptions. And the food stuffs in the lockers were unprocessed
(maybe pure CHON).

Catherine Ariel Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 00:17:03 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes:
>As we say here on the net: No, no, no.  Hicks is alone the with
>Bishop the whole time that Ripley is Rambo-izing the nest.  Also,
>Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a knock-out shot.  Hicks might
>not even know he was impregnated (raped?).  And let's not forget
>about Jones the cat.  Maybe Ripley and Newt will return to an Earth
>that's crawling with the things.

   In _Alien_, it was a considerable amount of time before the
face-hugger crawled off Kane and died. The time it took for Ripley
to find Newt after leaving the drop ship is comparable to the time
it took for Dallas and Lambert to drag Kane to the Nostromo. And a
Kane was killed less than one hour after the face-hugger crawled
away. Jones would have already been dead by the time Ripley got her
apartment.

   Oh, and the reason why the landing ramp was down on the first
drop ship was probably because the ship was in a secured area. The
pilots didn't even know the aliens existed.

Catherine Ariel Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 18:14:41 GMT
From: dartvax!ericb@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric J. Bivona)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Alien intelligence, biology & Jones the Cat

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>All in all the movie was superb, but the ending in the mother ship
>was weak.  The fight in the waldo-suit didn't make any sense to me.
>If I escaped behind the bulkhead, I would come back with a grenade
>launcher, not a loader.

And fire afore-mentioned grenade launcher in a shuttle bay?  I can
think of more pleasent ways to suicide.  Explosions in an enclosed
chamber are probably not real pleasant, assuming the structural
integrity of the chamber is not compromised.  I thought this was one
of the best scenes of either of the two movies, where our heroine
goes one-on-one with the Queen (with a little help --- they don't
call us tool users for nothing...)

Eric J. Bivona
USNET:      {linus|ihnp4|decvax|astrovax|research}!dartvax!ericb
ARPA:       ericb%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:      ericb@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 15:16:16 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan)
Subject: Re: Alien, original concept?

> When I first saw Alien, the original, the implanted embryo brought
> to mind my first reading of such an idea.  A. E. van Vogt's VOYAGE
> OF THE SPACE BEAGLE, contains a super-alien that is picked up in
> interstellar space by a research ship.

As I recall a lawsuit insued over this very similarity, and A.E. got
the jury's Vogt :-). BTW the VOTSB is worth reading, ALIEN(S) fans.

John Sloan
Wright State University
Computer Science and Engineering
Dayton, OH 45435
+1 513 873 2491, 2987
CSNET:      jsloan@WRIGHT.EDU
USENET:     ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan
ARPANET:    jsloan%wright@CSNET-RELAY
DECNET LAN: wright::jsloan
SMTP LAN:   jsloan@wright

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  3 Aug 1986 22:49:06-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: The term 'bughunt' (ALIENS)

From: robert@sri-spam.ARPA (Robert Allen)
> What I want to see is Robert Heinlein suing Cameron for use of the
> term "bughunt".  It would be a shame, particularly given the upset
> caused by Harlan Ellisons claims in.re. the plot of the
> Terminator.

If Heinlein were to sue Cameron, he'd lose. Heinlein never
copyrighted or trademarked the term "bughunt", so he has no legal
claim to it. What would sf have been like if the first writer to use
"hyperspace" or "hyperdrive" had trademarked it?  Or "crosstime"? Or
"time travel"?  Plot elements are another thing entirely.

Besides, can't people recognize an admiring reference? Cameron is an
admitted sf reader. That might well be a tip of the hat to Heinlein.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  3 Aug 1986 23:42:59-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS

From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
> Those containers must have been made of the kind of plastic that I
> postulated above. Notice that it is inert, but not that strong
> (they were smashed in order to let the facehuggers run loose in
> the room with Ripley and Newt).

No, I don't think they were smashed. Ripley might have been woken up
by the noise. She might not have been, as she was quite exhausted,
but Burke couldn't take that chance. It looked to me like the lids
were taken off and they were dumped on their sides, or perhaps they
were knocked over when the face huggers tried to jump out of them.
The latter seems more reasonable, since it would have given Burke
more time to get out of the room before one of them got *him*.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 07:20:29 GMT
From: reiher@medea.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher)
Subject: Re: ALIENS

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>Surely you jest. First of all, if the studio just wanted to rake in
>the bucks, why didn't they film an ALIEN II years ago? As a matter
>of fact, they had planned a sequel soon after the first film's
>success was assured, but they didn't want to rush it with just any
>old script and any old director.

That was part of it.  A large part of the reason "Aliens" took so
long to come around was studio politics, though.  When one studio
head leaves, and another takes over, it is customary to trash any
projects which have not already been pretty well committed to.  This
happened to "Aliens".  Then, after the relative failure of some
sequels ("The Sting II", "Jaws III", etc), sequels weren't such a
big thing as they are now.  Remember those halcyon days of only a
few years ago when a big hit movie did not necessarily mean that we
had to have a sequel to it?

>While I may have to eat my words later, I really do believe that
>Fox won't do YAS unless they have a worthwile product.

I may have to eat *my* words, but I'd be more than surprised if
there wasn't a sequel to "Aliens" in two to three years.  Moreover,
I'd bet it will be directed either by a hack or by a relative
newcomer (Cameron will have moved on to bigger and better things,
and Scott is unlikely to come back for seconds).  The chances are
excellent that it will suck.

Right now, Fox studio executives are not saying, "Boy, it's a good
thing we waited so long to make the sequel to "Alien"."  What
they're saying is, "Weren't our predecessors shmucks to wait so long
to make such an obvious hit?  We'll rush into a sequel right away,
to get the money while it's still hot."  There will be much pious
talk of commitment to quality, and upholding the standards of the
first two films, but, when push comes to shove, most Hollywood
producers don't believe in talent; they believe in hotness.  If
something or someone is hot, they think that including that element
in a film is a surefire way to succeed.  "Aliens" are hot, so why do
they need a talented director, or a good script?

Peter Reiher
reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
{...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 17:09:16 GMT
From: utastro!ethan@caip.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Clean(?) Aliens

boyajian@akov68.dec.com writes:
>> From: Dave.Touretzky@A.CS.CMU.EDU
>> ...No wonder the Company was itching to get its hands on them:
>> they're as clean as a neutron bomb, but smarter, and
>> self-reproducing.
>
> As clean as a neutron bomb??  Not quite.
>
> Neutron bombs don't leave slime all over the place! :-)

A more important difference is that the aliens will go on trying to
kill long after any political/military objectives have been
achieved.  This is the same reason that the US and the USSR were
able to agree to ban germ warfare.  I found this an irritating point
in the movie.  The only explanation I can think of is that the
company was confident that its biologists could program a
self-destruct mechanism into the critters.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the aliens *are* a
deliberately constructed biological weapon? Perhaps they are
programmed to go into a coma and die whenever confronted by sentient
beings with polka-dot faces. :-)

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 86 0740-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #234
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 234

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 18:55:06 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Goldberry

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Well, if Goldberry is ``the River-daughter'', and we take *that* at
>face value, then either Osse or Uinen (or both; Ulmo is, however
>unlikely or she'd be the Sea-daughter) has been playing around...

   I have always taken this to be a metaphorical expression. It is
rather like calling Valar brothers and sisters to one another, which
is something Tolkien does in The Silmarillion. For instance I
believe there is something about Morgoth being a brother to Manwe
"in the mind of Iluvatar". Thus I believe "River-daughter" is simply
a poetic way of saying "Maia of the Withywindle". She certainly has
a very close relationship to that river!

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 19:03:32 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast in Middle-Earth

jcn@blade.UUCP (Julio Cesar Navas) writes:
>       By the end of the Third Age, only Gandalf has carried out
>his charge.  Only Gandalf has 'kept the Faith'.  Saruman had
>switched sides and turned to evil (desiring to keep the One Ring
>for himself and become the new Lord of Middle-Earth).  Radagast had
>become so enamored of the birds and animals of Middle-Earth (esp.
>the birds) that he forsook his duties and really didn't do much in
>the way of helping the free peoples in any way.
>
>NOTE: Only Gandalf returned to Aman !!!!  A sure sign that he had
>carried out his duties faithfully and the others had not.
>
>Therefore, to describe Saruman and Radagast as 'renegade maia who
>had become so fascinated by Middle-Earth that they forsook their
>duties to stay there' is entirely correct.

   I do not think it can be said with certainty that only Gandalf
returned to Aman. The sailing that Gandalf and Frodo took was not
the only one, though it may have been the greatest. I can certainly
believe that Radagast might have taken a different ship. And as for
the Blue Wizards, if they had been killed they would *already* be
back in Aman, without the need to sail there.
   Also, I think it is debatable that Radagast had really forsaken
his duties. True, he did not perform them as *effectivly* as
Gandalf, but he did his part, in a small way, and he remained
uncorrupted by greed or lust for power. As I remember the discussion
of the Istari in The Lost Tales it is only *suggested* that Radagast
might be considered to have failed, and I do not think that really
fits the facts as set forth in LotR.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 86 19:12:43 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Debating Tolkien's word

ccrrick@ucdavis.UUCP (Rick Heli) writes:
>>However, if you find the translation idea inadequate, consider
>>that Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" first (after Hobbit), out
>>of the "desire of a storyteller to try his hand at a really good
>>story."
>
>Actually, the tales presented in _The_Silmarillion_ are among the
>oldest of the entire Tolkien mythos.

   The *stories* may have been the oldest, but the form they were
published in(that is the actual prose) was written *after* the LotR.
Read the various "Lost Tales" volumes to get the original versions.
The versions in Slimarillion are *much* better. His concept of the
Valar had matured considerably between the original versions and the
later, post-LotR, versions, they are less trivial and more
believable.  Also, in the original versions he made the mistake of
giving details of how the magic was done, and it generally sounded
quite silly compared to the published works. Even most of the drafts
in "The Unfinished Tales" are post-LotR. In fact they represent the
skeleton of what Tolkien really intended "The Silmarillion" to be.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 86 20:58:38 GMT
From: tcdmath!hugh@caip.rutgers.edu (Hugh Grant)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards

db@cstvax.UUCP (Dave Berry) writes:
>Someone suggested to me that, as Gandalf had power with fire, and
>Radagast had power with animals, so a Blue Wizard could have had
>power with water (for want of better knowledge).

Hmmm. As far as I can remember, the reason Gandalf had power over
fire was because he held Narya, the ring of fire, and not just a
natural tendency to pyromania. I'd think that Radagast probably just
liked cute little animals...  In other words, these "abilities" were
not directly due to their being wizards so there's no reason that a
blue wizard would have a particular power.

Hugh Grant
Mathematics Dept, Trinity College, Dublin.
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!mcvax!ukc!einode!tcdmath!hugh

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 05:11:43 GMT
From: watnot!jrsheridan@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's blue wizards

hugh@tcdmath (Hugh Grant) writes:
>Hmmm. As far as I can remember, the reason Gandalf had power over
>fire was because he held Narya, the ring of fire, and not just a
>natural tendency to pyromania. I'd think that Radagast probably
>just liked cute little animals...  In other words, these
>"abilities" were not directly due to their being wizards so there's
>no reason that a blue wizard would have a particular power.

Sorry, but I can't buy that.  While I do feel that Gandalf was able
to use the ring (witness the Balrog [I know, point of contention
:-)]) he most certainly did not get all his power over fire from
Narya.  Somehow Gandalf using the power of an Elven Ring, which was
supposed to be kept VERY secret, for the most amazing fireworks the
Hobbits had ever seen just does not click.  I feel that he received
Narya more BECAUSE he was a lover of flame.  Think about it, Cirdan
must have seen all the Istari arriving and yet he chose Gandalf.
True, he may have had the Forevision that lots of Elves seemed to
have, but it could be said that EVERY one of them would need the
power in their tasks.  All (?)  he knew was that mighty beings had
arrived from over-sea... If he had to pick one of the four, the one
who was most "suitable" was Gandalf.

Enough of that, here's a little idea that hit me while thinking
about this posting...

When Gandalf is battling the Balrog in Moria he mentions that he is
the wielder of the "Flame of Anor".  Now some believe that means
Narya (myself included), but here's another possiblity: Glamdring
his sword.  For Orcs anyways the Elven swords gleam with a bright
light that they find painful (remember in The Hobbit when they
battled under the Misty Mountains...).  This sword might be capable
of doing the same to a Balrog???  Oh well, it's an idea...

James R. Sheridan
Faculty of Mathematics
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ont.  Canada
{utzoo|allegra|ihnp4|decvax|clyde}!watmath!watnot!jrsheridan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 86 15:58:25 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: character control

>The author of a fantasy world should have the last word about the
>events, places, etc. therein.

This is reasonable.

>In fact, the author would be the only person who would have a
>complete knowledge of all the events, plottings, characters,
>places, etc. in his land.

This is arguable, even in one-author worlds (e.g., NOBODY knows
everything that's going on in Sanctuary).

>Therefore, his readers would never really know why Sauron did what
>he did.  Tolkien, however, would know.  He is after all the one who
>created the situation in the first place and so would know the why
>'s and wherefore's for every character's actions.

This, however, is nonsense. I won't argue that Tolkien was an author
who deliberately played with his readers' heads (unlike some modern
SF authors).  BUT that doesn't mean he didn't leave some things as
an exercise to the reader or for further discussion, just as
Milton's is not the last word (in the Christian fantasy) on why
Lucifer rebelled [yes, it's not an exact analogy].  Frank Stockton
certainly didn't know whether the door the princess pointed to had
the Lady or the Tiger behind it; some authors have left even wider
subjects unsettled (e.g., I just reread Pohl's MAN PLUS---what do
\you/ think interfered with the judgment of the worldnet
intelligence?).
   Moreover, I doubt that it is possible for a human intelligence to
encompass all the behaviors and motives even of the principal
characters of his world (although I don't recall hearing of Tolkien
talking, as many authors do, about his characters telling him he was
doing something wrong). One of the things I particularly enjoy about
good SF and fantasy is the room they leave for speculation. It's one
thing to say that an author is flat-out lying (although his
viewpoint characters can be lying or misremembering), but quite
another to say that heesh just hasn't settled an issue.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 16:37:30 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's Riddle to enter Moria

In point of fact, what the inscription reads is:

        "Speak friend and enter".

Our heroes read this as "Speak, friend, and enter", meaning that
friends would have the words.

We now know this to mean "Speak _the word_ friend, and enter".  The
word friend is, of course, mellon.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 16:42:53 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: LOTR

I recall in one of his biographies, that JRRT once said that he
wished his books (esp. SILMARILLION) to be like a bible, that other
authors might come to for germs of stories, and expand upon them.  I
am truly sorry that we have treted Tolkien's work with an undue
amount of reverence, for none has dared to touch them so.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 22:13:17 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Shelob

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>From: Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc
>>The origin of Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron is detailed in the
>>_Silmarillon_, as are the origins of all other creatures, even
>>Shelob and Tom Bombadill.
>
>I, and others I'm sure, would be grateful if you cite exactly where
>Shelob and Tom Bombadil are detailed in "Silmarillion".  I am not
>aware of such a place, and have always assumed that the material of
>LotR and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was all we have.  Do I
>have an unexpected treat awaiting me?

Well, I don't know about Bombadil, but Shelob's origin is specified
in THE TWO TOWERS: ``last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy
world.''

The question of Ungoliant's origin is, however, still open.  It is
stated in the SILMARILLION ("Quenta Silmarillion", Chapter 8, "Of
the Darkening of Valinor") that:

``...there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her
abode.  The Elves knew not whence she came; but some have said that
in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about
Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of
Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he had
corrupted to his service.  But she had disowned her Master, desiring
to be mistress of her own lust....''

This isn't confirmed, however, so who knows where she came from?

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
HOME (216) 781-6201 24 hrs.
6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105
Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101
UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon
PHONE: +1 216 974 9210
ARPA:  ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Tue 5 Aug 86 01:54:21-CDT
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #214

Re: Tolkien's opinion of those who tried to make his LOTR world real
- I read them in 1965 in graduate school the first time around and
was one of the early American correspondents with Professor Tolkien.
In my opinion he was neither thrilled nor amused by people who
deluded themselves into "believing it was real!"  For him, they fell
into the same category as those who "insisted on finding allegory"
where none was written.  He had no pretensions and had little
tolerance for those who used his works to give themselves airs by
becoming "experts"!  It was and remains a really good story!  And
only that; but what an incredible "only" that is!!!

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 14:55 MST
From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU
Subject: the pirated edition of Lord of the Rings

>"who decided to publish LotR without even telling Tolkien, much
>less asking him?"

That must refer to the pirated Ace editions of the middle '60s.
Tolkien's British publishers, George Allen and Unwin, had omitted to
secure int'l copyright.  Ace, a US pb house, noting this fact &
Tolkien's great popularity, thought they'd score a coup by bringing
out an unauthorized, but legal, US pb edition.  I remember running
out to buy those as soon as I heard they existed, as soon as they
were on the market.  (I did *not* know they were piracies!)  When
the word got out, the backlash hurt Ace badly -- boycotts, negative
publicity -- and if memory serves, they wound up paying Tolkien the
royalties they "owed" him in decency and would have owed him in law
if the copyright had been observed.  He remarked that it was a
strange notion of ownership that allowed someone finding on the
ground a valuable article of known ownership to appropriate it on
the grounds that the owner's name was not properly affixed!  Shortly
afterward the revised edition appeared, with proper c'right.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 19:14:33 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Who or What Is Gandalf?

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>I, and others I'm sure, would be grateful if you cite exactly where
>Shelob and Tom Bombadil are detailed in "Silmarillion".  I am not
>aware of such a place, and have always assumed that the material of
>LotR and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was all we have.  Do I
>have an unexpected treat awaiting me?

   I do not think there is any material on Tom Bombadil in "The
Silmarillion", though one may make educated guesses about his origin
on the basis of some material in the earlier portions.
   Now Shelob is a different matter. Though she is not mentioned by
name, her origin is clearly described. She is obviously one of the
spider-spirits descended from Ungoliant.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 00:53:55 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Hobbits et al.

>   I can. Luthien did it, and with her help, Beren was able to do
>it. Also, their daughter Idril did it, she turned into a sea bird
>to escape from the sack of the elf havens, and so brought the
>Silmaril to her husband, Earendil.

Elbereth!  Sarima, I'm surprised at you!  Luthien and Beren HAD no
daughters.  Their granddaughter, Elwing, who escaped the sack of
Dior (that's their SON, you see)'s home, married Earendil.  Idril
was an Elf, who married a full human, Tuor -- and bore Earendil.
(We all know how JRRT would have been shocked by this kind of
implication: Idril and *Earendil*? :-) )

And THAT's off the top of my head.  I don't even speak Elvish as
well as you!  :-)

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr.
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 86 0757-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #235
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 235

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Perry,
                     Films - Howard the Duck &
                             Balderunner (2 msgs),
                     Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
                     Miscellaneous - Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 02:21 PDT
From: BROCK%sc.intel.com@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
Subject: The Matador Trilogy

In reference to Steve Perry's Matador trilogy, would anyone happen
to know if Sumito is a product of the Author's imagination, or
something borrowed from Real Life?

Scott Brock
Intel Corp.
Folsom, Ca.
"Brock%sc.intel.com@csnet-relay.csnet"

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 14:55:42 GMT
From: trudel@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (John Headroom)
Subject: Howard the Duck (review)

I had read a little of the Marvel Comic book Howard The Dusk a few
years ago, and when I went to the theatre, I tried to enter that
mindset.  Yah!  There are quite a few funny jokes, but also quite a
few (if not more) awful and I do mean awful puns in this movie.  I
screamed in agony at some of them.

Howard the Duck is a being from a planet of ducks that is a close
parallel to our own.  By some method I won't describe, he is brought
to our Earth, or more precisely, Cleveland.  The movie details his
attempt to return to his home.  Jeffrey Jones plays a scientist who
helps him on his quest.

There are so many bad puns, and so few gems in this one that I
really can't give this a real rating.  I really still don't know
whether I liked it or I hated it.  For that reason I give this one a
-2 AND a +2 because I can't make up my mind.  Being that I haven't
yet done so, I would start hedging towards the negative.

                      ****Spoiler Warning ****

The puns are really bad.  They really try too hard.  I was expecting
awful humor, and I got more than that.  The humor was almost as bad
as my own, and I don't feel that I have to pay for it (I could just
stay at home and do the same if I really wanted to).  If they had
tried to do a little more in the way of character development, I
think I would have liked it much better.

Howard looks almost lifelike.  I didn't see 'a person in a duck
suit' (alright, so there were a few).  Some of my friends disagreed,
though, but others agreed with me.  This choice is best left to the
individual.  Lea Thompson, well, I just can't give her a negative
review.  I don't see how any red-blooded, heterosexual male could.
She suffers from bad writing, if there be any flaw with her.  I
mean, "Book 'em, Duck-o" almost made my stomach turn.  For those of
you who don't remember (I didn't) she played Micheal J.  Fox's
mother in Back to the Future, and she looks quite different here.
The one thing that keeps me from completely panning this film is
Jeffrey Jones, who makes an excellent Dark Overlord.  The demon
scenes are well put together, and decently 'coreographed'.  This man
is becomming as versatile as John Lithgow in his different roles.

This is Big Time Television.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 86 13:27:22 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
Subject: Blade Runner

Brad Templeton writes:
>I've seen Blade Runner called a great classic of S.F. in this
>group, and it just doesn't measure up.  The following are important
>in a great SF classic:

Oh really?

>1) The premise should be at least reasonable
>   BR's androids are so like people you can't tell them apart.  In
>   a world so paranoid about them that it doesn't allow them on the
>   Earth, why would this be done?  It makes sense for whoredroids,
>   but for mining robots?  The society depicted in BR would have
>   insisted that the replicants be bright blue or something.
>   Remember that this society mandated the short life span, since
>   it was possible to make them immortal from a technical p.o.v.

The androids in the movie are the first of a "new breed", the first
to "mimic" human emotional responses.  The society isn't making the
androids, it's the Tyrell Corporation.  They probably have the short
life span so that they can SELL more of them after they "run down".
They're not expected to *want* to be on Earth.  The society doesn't
care about the androids; it's the police that care.  If the androids
come to Earth, then as far as they're concerned, the androids are
defective.

>   A lesser complaint (lots of SF movies get away with this one) is
>   that the technology for complete duplication of human beings
>   (with superior powers) doesn't really make sense in the
>   time-frame described.

Considering the possibilities with genetic engineering, it's not all
that absurd, which is good enough for me.  This future isn't going
to happen, but that's not the point.  This is an idea worth thinking
about, and it's not ridiculous.

>7) SF should be good and integral to several facets of the film.
>   If it's going to be an SF classic instead of a film classic,
>   this must be the case.  BR's replicants are not SF.  Some people
>   have credited this movie for making the androids so human.  This
>   is the problem.  The story centered around the replicants having
>   a full set of human emotions.  This changed it from a story
>   about androids to a story about slavery.  Had their been an AI
>   element it might have been SF, but instead the SF was used only
>   as a vehicle.
>
>   The setting is reasonable SF, but that's not enough when the plot
>   pretends to be, but isn't

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA.  What prevents a story about slavery
from not being SF???  SF doesn't have to be about TECHNOLOGY
(although the genetic engineering in the story is technology
enough...).  SF allows a story about slavery to transcend what is
possible in mundane fiction - to be more *profound*.  I wish Philip
K. Dick was around to defend this point.  He wasn't writing about
technology, he was writing about what it means to be human (his
story was turned around, but to good effect).  That the androids had
a full set of human emotions was the whole point.  They *weren't*
just androids, like the previous "models".  They were as human as the
'real' humans.

>8) You should leave the movie feeling the movie achieved its goal
>   superbly.

I don't know about you, but I left with a "sense of wonder", among
other things, which is the best thing that SF movies can do for me.

I'm not going to bother arguing that the movie is "Classic SF", but
I will defend it.

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 86 13:42:02 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
Subject: Blade Runner

Perry Metzger writes:
>[...] You ought to read Ursula Le Guin's introduction to "The Left
>Hand of Darkness".  She has quite a lot to say about it.  Then
>again, you might not like her writing, either.

A good suggestion.

>I came out of the movie the first time I saw it emotionally
>drained.  I thought "Damn, THAT WAS A GOOD MOVIE!". Prehaps you
>didn't feel it. Luckily, you don't control the film industry.

Unfortunately, the film industry has decided, based on BLADE RUNNER,
not to make serious SF.  Despite the presence of Harrison Ford, the
movie was a convincing failure.  There will still be low budget
films from non-traditional sources, but no serious SF from the big
boys...

But there will always be Blade Runner.

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 18:57:57 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: good command strategy

Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU> writes:
>Captain Kirk.  Ah yes.  I remember him.  The one who would
>routinely take as a scouting party into hostile territory most or
>all of his command crew; or leave his heavily armoured security
>detail behind while he, the most senior officer present, walked
>into danger with perhaps as much as a phaser in his hand [and so on
>and on]

Yes, interesting point.  It has always seemed to me that the way to
have a more plausible ST-like scenario was to have some of the
"red-shirts" or low-grade science/scouting folks as part of the
recurring cast that we become familiar with and identify with.

This is sort of the way that WWII films portray aircraft carriers in
action.  We get to know the command crew, and we get to know some of
the mechanics/pilots/whatnot, and then we follow the action from a
command decision (taken on the bridge by the bridge crew) through
it's effects on the grunts we happen to know.

The single worst, silliest, and most fixable thing about the whole
ST scenario is this one point.  Keep the command crew on the bridge,
and develop some grunt characters to implement decisions.  I
certainly hope this is "fixed" if the ST movies continue, or if a TV
series eventuates.  But I suppose reasonableness is more than one
should hope for...

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 86 17:11:53 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
To: Alastair Milne <milne@icse.uci.EDU>
Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters

Alastair Milne writes, in response to Lisa Wahl:

>>I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST
>>characters being the center of "ST."
>
>Don't be.  I would guess that the majority of people think of Star
>Trek as a collection of the most prominent character quirks of its
>personalities: Spock's neck pinch and ears, Kirk's obsession with
>command and his incessant love affairs (my sister once claimed he
>fell in love every episode: demonstrably false, but that was the
>impression made), and a general impression that all competent space
>engineers are Scots.  The deeper and more important components you
>mention are unknown or simply uninteresting to the greater number
>of people.

>Certainly the mainstream population equates Star Trek with "Beam
me up, Scotty" and such, but to Star Trek fans, it is much more
than the characters.

>And for an appendix, they destroyed the whole ship.  Not even
>logically, by using the antimatter in the warp generators, which
>would have done the job instantly, but by a long series of small
>explosions.

I hate to respond to these kind of comments, but...  They destroyed
the ship with the self-destruct mechanism.  This would not involve
the antimatter in the warp generators because in desperate
situations the engines might not be available.  Given time, they
could have rigged a "logical" destruct.  They wouldn't design the
ship to be easily destroyed, but the option *is* available (and
starship captains love to bluff...).

>>I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH,
>>and only make the series stronger.
>
>Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that.  Mostly, it
>needs M*A*S*H's writers.  They proved that it is in fact physically
>possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing.  Star Trek
>occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its
>writing: but that wasn't difficult.  Frequently it didn't.

Yes and no.  Star Trek can continue in the same way that MASH did,
but not with MASH's writers.  What Star Trek needs is Star Trek's
original writers and producers, etc.  Included were science fiction
writers, whose scripts were edited into forms suitable for ST.
Also, good scripts from normal Hollywood writers were used.  There
was no shortage of bad scripts, or scripts that did not fit the ST
format.  But these scripts were simply not used.  Fine writing was
the rule, not the exception.  During the final (third) season, the
quality deteriorated, but that was because Gene Roddenberry stopped
his tight control of the production (because of what he felt was a
broken promise from the studio).  Yes, Star Trek needs quality
writing.  Not enough can be said about that.

>>I WANT to see a new Star Trek with the same setting, background,
>>the same "to boldly go" theme, but with new people.  Let's have
>>another strong Captain, another fascinating alien, some new
>>personality types.  Saavik was a great addition, as far as she
>>went.  We need more new people like her.

Amen.

>My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course.  It's
>possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see
>that coming for ST.  Unless they can do something significant with
>a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying.

One factor is that the ideas in Star Trek were positive responses to
the problems of the 60's.  It is necessary for ST to maintain the
old tradition, while responding to new problems.  The fact that what
ST represents is no longer fashionable is not the fault of Star
Trek.  I wouldn't argue if you said that right now Star Trek is
being run into the ground.

>However, I would really like to see Saavik properly developed.
>Hopefully Kirstee Allie has by now fired the agent who lost her the
>part for ST III.  With no discourtesy intended to Robin Curtis, I
>find Ms. Allie much more convincing in the part.  As a
>Romulan/Vulcan mix, Saavik is unique on the show, and worth
>exploring.

Don't be so sure that Allie's agent is at "fault".  If she wanted to
maintain her role as Saavik, she could have done so.  She simply
decided to do other things.  And how did you find out that Saavik is
half-Romulan?  It isn't mentioned in either of the movies...
...although it's "true".  (correct me if I'm wrong)

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 19:29:10 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) writes:
>Short summary: the existEnce of an additional type of energy (tau)
>is discovered. Seems that this energy is created (no comments :-})
>whenever another form of energy is released. This tau energy
>travels back in time a distance directly proportional to the amount
>of energy. SO, these guys who discovered this (who also happen to
>be hackers) design a machine to monitor recption of this type of
>energy. Then they experiment by sending forward (sorry, it can go
>forward or back, distance proportional ...)  and having the future
>people send messages back.

Close enough: The radiation was (in every instance I can remember)
sent back in time.  Sending it forward in time is:
  a) No trick (read, "fun") at all.  It happens all the time.  This
     posting is going forward in time, and will reach you all at a
     time later than it was sent.
  b) Inconclusive.  It doesn't show any real change in the universe.
     Say, in 1941, I send you (here/now) a note saying, "The
     Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor," would you do anything different?
     c) Impossible in the context of the story, I believe.
[FYI, the information is passed as "bleeps", pulses of tau
radiation, in a basic serial computer transmission, picked up at the
other end by the same computer.]

>Now, Hogan also came up with what the characters called the 'reset
>factor'.  This was basically that certain amounts of tau radiation
>will be constantly jumping back and forward and changing things,
>even as minor as the placement of a single molecule. But, that can
>have unforseen affects. However, once a change is made in the past,
>reality is retroactively reset to have that as its past. Scary
>thought.

Yeah, but it doesn't happen often (it took the old guy YEARS to
prove it even existed), and only interacts on an atomic level.
Barely, at that.

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 86 0812-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #236
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 236

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 aug 86 03:24:55 gmt
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (catherine ariel wolffe)
Subject: re: *aliens* (spoilers)

srt@locus.ucla.edu (scott turner) writes:
>Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have been
>pretty lame.  And why are they all cast as "refutations"?  I'm not
>Ghod handing down the Commandments - it would be acceptable simply
>to argue.
>
>The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either
>postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie
>or refer to the book.  Personally I feel that the movie has to
>stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to
>a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious
>intention to explain away problems in the movie.

   Books are sometimes written after the screenplay, but the play
the novelist has is usually quite a bit longer than the shooting
script. And the book also has the writer's imagination. But the book
is not written with the "conscious intention to explain away
problems in the movie". It is written to be just that: a book.

>As far as using deep sleep to conserve on oxygen/food/living space,
>I see several objections.  First of all, in a deep space craft you
>can carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like
>oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the
>battle structure.  You just hook a container of LOX on the outside.
>Second, why waste all the time during the journey?  Why not use the
>time to prepare for the coming mission?  This is an emergency
>rescue, after all.  Finally, there has to be some sort of danger in
>using deep sleep.  Would you be willing to let yourself be
>frozen/chemically slowed to save 17 days?  Not me.

   It was explained in the original script that the Nostromo could
only support the crew for a few days. Then the air scubbers would
not be able to clean the air sufficiently for humans to survive.
Also deep sleep makes sense from an energy conscious point of view.
This ship is intrasystem. It does not have solar collectors for they
would be useless. It was never explained in the original script (a
screenplay over 800 pages in length which I was able to borrow from
a friend) what the ship ran on, but I am inclined to believe some
sort of fusion reactor. And trying to maintain FTL travel probably
needs constant propulsion (considering it took months only to get to
Earth from wherever the refinery was picked up and Lambert could not
find Alpha Centauri when Mother woke them would lead to travelling
faster than light).  So the ship would need most of the power to
maintain the thrust and the internal power to the computer. But it
would not need heat, nor air, nor would it have to turn raw
materials into edibles and comestibles. And what would happen to the
LOX container during re-entry? The ship was immense, but still very
cramped inside. So there would be no extra room available. As for
the marines, they had nothing to prove that the aliens existed. The
Company took care of that. And the Company wanted to bring these
creatures back to Earth. So why equip the Marines with the
necessary firepower to destroy the aliens? The ship had nukes, but
the Company would be extremely obvious in removing the pre-placed
armaments on a non-Company ship. And why not use deep-sleep? Sure,
there is a risk. There is also a risk in stepping outside your home.
There is even a risk that you will die on the operating table from
the anasthesia only. To these people, the risk is the same as
getting into a car. And the major bugs have been worked out already.

>Mumblety-Peg.  Urrgh.  Everyone replied that "Bishop was fully
>aware that he wasn't going to harm Hudson".  Not so!  Bishop cut
>his own hand, remember?  Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand,
>remember?  Therefore, Bishop could very well have cut Hudson's
>hand, right?  Therefore, Bishop should never have played the game
>in the first place, right?

   Who said the Artificial People work under Asimov's Laws? It is
not in either books, nor the movies, nor the original screenplay.
Bishop might have cut himself when he first picked up the knife and
tested the feel of it.  He does not have "pain" sensors, or he would
have noticed the cut immediately.  And Bishop believed he was not
going to hurt Hudson. So that gets around the Asimov Laws.

>Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters.  Yes, I was aware that
>the "thermal overload" was already underway.  That DOESN'T mean
>that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte
>blanche fashion.  If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor
>that's going to overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last
>thing I'm going to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten
>the process.

   I think Ellen Ripley really didn't care. She had one purpose, and
she was not going to let anything stand in her way. And she saw that
even a smart gun (what Drake and Vasques carried) didn't really
affect the coolant system one way or another.

>Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform.  Justify this all you want.
>Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at
>this point.  It makes no sense at all.  There is too much wind
>inside a building for a landing craft to hover near the platform?
>Yeah, THAT seems likely.  And I said hover NEAR the platform, not
>OVER the platform.  I'm well aware of Newton's laws, thank you, and
>I realize that hovering over the platform would have strained the
>platform (not to mention putting Ripley in the jet wash as she left
>the elevator), but it was just tension building (and cheap movie-
>making) to have the craft hovering out of sight.  And how would
>Bishop know when to return?  And why didn't he return immediately?

   In the movie, Bishops said he had to leave the platform because
it was unsteady, and he said he had to circle the building.
Obviously he had to circle at a lower altitude. And the winds in the
building were caused by the many smaller explosions. One of these
pushed the drop ship over the platform.

>Cheap Movie Making.  Ripley's dream.  Need I say more?  How cheap
>can you get?

   Ripley's dream was supposed to be a recurring nightmare. She
probably had her apartment and her place of work as settings for
these nightmares.  And wouldn't you have nightmares if you went
through what ahe went through?  These nightmares also contributed to
her going back to LV-237.

>Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle.  Please don't blame
>this on the incompetent commander.  He wasn't even there.  At any
>rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after
>they've survived a few missions.  They have protocols beaten in to
>them, and they follow them.  In a large part, that's what makes
>them survive.

   It is a secured area. There is no reason for constant watch.
Besides, they might have been loading something at the time, and
then got the order.

>If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout.  They
>wear acid resistant armor, take the right sorts of weapons, etc.
>To keep that from happening, the Company completely ignores
>Ripley's warning.  Why?  Here's a trusted (in command of a
>multi-billion dollar spaceship) employee who's just survived a 57
>year space trip to bring a warning to the Company.  Can't the
>Company at least try to confirm her story?  No, because that means
>the marines would go in prepared.  And what happened to the
>indications in the earlier story that the Company knew about the
>Aliens in the first place?

   Originally, the Company did not know what was there. That is why
the Nostromo diverted course. Ash had secondary programming which
said to get and preserve any xenomorphs, even at the expense of the
crew. The Company doctored the ship log to remove any trace of the
alien. So it knew about the alien. And the Company was more
interested in profit than heroism.

>If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up
>the place and the story's over.  So the marines do two *idiotic*
>things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and
>take everyone to the surface.

   See above for details on the drop ship explanation. And why take
any unnecessary crew? They just sit on the ship and use precious
energy from the ship. And each person was trained for a specific
part of the mission. If you are going to ship these people all that
distance, you are probably going to use them if possible. And there
was no reason the expect any real trouble. The Marines heard the
"official" version first, the Ripley's version. And the "official"
version is more acceptable.

>It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair
>unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build
>their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear
>reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more
>appropriately.

   The area under the reactor is warm and safe. The eggs were in the
deepest part of the alien ship in the original. The aliens might
have brought food to the nest already. That is instinct. And the
Marines could not retreat when surrounded. They tried. And only
Hicks, Hudson, and Vasques made it into the APC. They were going to
go into orbit and nuke the place, but the drop ship was destroyed.

>In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly
>sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines
>would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics.  And even if they were once,
>wouldn't they catch on sooner or later?

   These are not Space Marines, but are obviously land based. Their
weapons show this. The guns have a kick (which could be fatal to
wielder and allies in zero-G of space), they seem to need oxygen.
The aliens only attacked in two waves, one in the reactor area, one
in the complex. In the first attack, the aliens were using 3-D
fighting, but this was in an open area. They hung to the walls, hung
to the ceilings, hid in the resin formations, in truth using all
available means of guerrilla warfare. The second time was a
completely different setting. The survivers did not know of any way
the aliens could have gotten into the overhead ducts. So they did
not think to check there.

>In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we
>make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna.
>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a
>beacon on automatic.  Second, if we can build an android
>indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI
>personality on board the orbital ship?  Third, why does Bishop have
>to pilot using a keyboard and joystick?  He doesn't have a remote
>plug or radio link built in?

   I don't know about the ship landing itself on a beam from the
beacon.  Why include it when there will probably be no beacons where
the ships land?  Bishop used a keyboard to activate the drop ship
and release it. The comp system which did this is more then likely
part of the main computer. He had to give specific instructions to
set the acts into motion. The joystick is used to pilot the ship,
because the main control in the cockpit is a joystick. A remote plug
might be possible, but it was not used. A radio link would be too
bulky if it was to be able to broadcast on any chosen frequency, at
a large distance, and fit into a crammed space, such as Bishop's
body.

>And this just goes on and on.  It's like a cheap horror film where
>sixteen people have been killed in the basement and the heroine
>decides to check it out in her nightgown and one flickering candle.
>At some point you have to say "C'mon!".  I didn't think *Alien* was
>too bad in this respect, but *Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated
>movie-making.

   How many splatter films have the main characters wanting to leave
the place where the killings take place in the first half of the
movie? And how many gore films have the heroine track the killer(s)
with a small armory on her back?

Catherine Ariel Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: Mon 4 Aug 86 16:34:00-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: More Aliens...

  Here are yet more answers to questions that have not yet been
answered yet.  Of course we all should realize that a lot of these
questions probably already have answers and we're just discussing
them to enlighten ourselves...
  About the first Alien being meaner than the others, we don't know
what sort of food the Aliens like to munch on so perhaps the first
alien found something to stimulate his growth in the ship.  Not to
mention he had the whole ship to himself while the others had to
share the colony.  Another answer is that the aliens are indeed
psychic in a way (this seems very likely to me) and he knew he was
all alone so he was developing into a queen (oops, make that a she).
The other aliens probably don't develop that far because a queen
already exists and either they don't want to have two queens or any
other queens would be killed off.
  I think that the aliens that were contained in the chambers (the
five- legged type) were drugged up pretty severly.  This would
explain why they didn't move (except for one movement which could be
equal to twitching while asleep, bad dreams perhaps?) and why it
took them so long to attack Ripley when they were lose in the room.
By the way, I thought this scene was very well done and had an
incredibly nightmarish atmosphere about it.  Perhaps the guy from
the company (forgot his name) drugged Ripley and that's why she
didn't hear him moving around.  Of course it could also be that he
being such a slimey person simply slithered into the room without
being heard...

Doug

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 06:34:20 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: Alien height

From: fai!ronc (Ronald O. Christian)
> It's been awhile since I saw the original Alien, but I remember
> the alien as not growing to more than man high.  I remember
> because it struck me at the time as a very convenient size to hide
> a man inside a costume.

No, the original Alien was taller than an average human.  The man
inside the Alien suit was circa seven feet tall.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 17:38:51 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Kill those Aliens!

KILL THOSE DAMN ALIENS!

The opinion has been expressed that the aliens should be
exterminated like smallpox.  I happen to agree with that point of
view.  After all, they kill all of the inhabitant race of the planet
they come in contact with.

Consider the facts: The inhabitants discovered the planet an
indeterminant period of time before the aliens came in the first
film.  The inhabitants had already colonized the planet, laying
their eggs.  They had found some sort of an ecological niche that by
the second film is clear would sustain them for many years to come.
Apparently the planet is viable for them.  Also it is clear that the
inhabitant race is intelligent.  It has a right to its planet.  When
the aliens came and started building their own colony, changing the
ecology of the planet -- luckily not enough to kill the hearty
inhabitant race -- that was bad enough.  (Apparently the aliens are
too wimpy to live in a wide range of conditions the way the
inhabitants of the planet are.)  But in the second film they have
brought killing machines with them to attack the citizens of the
planet.  (Pity, the aliens would have made at least fair incubation
material for the inhabitants if they hadn't turned out to be
intelligent.)

It is sad that ALIENS is one more of those downbeat horror films in
which the monsters win.  Technological societies always seems to do
better than societies that live more in harmony with nature because
technology builds better weapons.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 86 0840-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #237
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 237

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 06:30:31 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: Some speculations concerning ALIENS

In discussing some points of ALIENS, and the discussion herein about
it, with some friends, a couple of things came to mind to explain
some inconsistencies in the film.

(1) Hicks says that once they were determined to be missing (ie.
didn't report in), it'd be 17 days before a relief squad would show
up. A complaint has been made that this isn't consistent with how
long it should have taken the Sulaco to reach Acheron.  Aside from
the points that others have made (in ALIEN, they were 10 months from
Earth when everything happened; technology has improved in ~60
years; they're using a combat ship, not a tug), it should also be
pointed out that nowhere is it said that the relief expedition has
to be coming from Earth. The Sulaco does, because Burke wanted
Ripley along, and the two of them were on Earth (or rather, they
were on Gateway), but another ship could well come from a planet
that's closer to Acheron.

(2) It was obvious that the Company knew about the Alien in the
first film. How come they didn't seem to know about it in the
second? Possible scenario:

   Company ship somewhere receives message, relays it to Company.
Someone there manages to decode message, which tells about Alien.
Some executive is told and decides, like Burke later, that he could
further his career by getting this thing back for their Weapons
Division. He orders the Nostromo rerouted and Ash reprogrammed. It's
possible that very few other Company officials know about this
(executive doesn't want others taking his glory away from him). When
the Nostromo is never heard from again, executive destroys evidence
of the rerouting, otherwise he could be blamed for it. Or, if many
Company officials know about this, perhaps they destroy the evidence
just to make sure the insurance company doesn't find out that
Company deliberately sent the Nostromo into danger, otherwise they
maybe not pay off.
   At any rate, in the intervening three dozen years, the incident
is forgotten, or everyone who knew about it died. The planet
Acheron, at this time, may have been discovered by chance or some
record found in the Company files somewhere referring to it as
possibly harboring some alien life form. So, a colony is set up.
Routine surveys are done, but most effort is put into trying to
terraform the planet.

<Big hole --- I find it difficult to believe that they could have
made Acheron that inhabitable in only twenty years. Twenty
*decades*, maybe.>

Surveys are moderate at best.  The derelict could be quite far from
the colony, so it may never have been detected. The beacon is a
problem, but it's *not* impossible that it could have failed
somewhere in the 37 years before the colony was started. A little
coincidental, perhaps, but synchronicity is what makes life so much
fun.
   So, when Ripley gets back, no one in the Company believes her
because none of the present management saw the first movie, so they
don't know about the Nostromo. Or perhaps it *was* just a cover-up
to deceive any Colonial Administration observers or whomever. But
Burke at least believes her, and he sets things in motion that we
see in ALIENS.

Variation on old joke:

1st man: "Help! Help! I have an Alien on my face!"
2nd man: "I'm sorry, sir, but you'll have to speak up.
          You have an Alien on your face."

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 86 00:35:20 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: re: Mark Leeper's review of ALIENS

In regards to ALIENS being too easy to kill.  I've always hated the
alien menaces that were impervious to bullets.  Bullets pack a hell
of a lot of destructive force.  Armor piercing, explosive tipped
bullets should do a lot of damage, regardless of the construction of
the alien exoskeleton.  (umm.  I wasn't really noticing at the time,
but the alien exoskeleton seemed built like a regular endoskeleton,
complete with muscle attachment points and such.  Definitely a scary
design, but not really efficient.  perhaps the alien was using force
field muscles, or something?  In which case nothing could have
killed them, and we would have had an extremely dull story)

We had a couple of scenes demonstrating the aliens' overall
toughness.  They batter through a door at the colony (but the queen
doesn't batter through a door on the cruiser.  I thought that that
was a good touch.  Cruiser doors are much better armored than colony
doors).  One of the warriors broke through the external glass in the
troop carrier.  I thought that was stupid-- the glass shouldn't be
that easy to batter.  We didn't see any sign that it dripped its
molecular acid onto the glass first, to soften it.  If the glass was
that easy to break, there shouldn't be any glass on the carrier
anyway.  Oh well.

Someone mentioned that the guns used 10mm rounds, and they couldn't
see how 100 rounds would fit in the clip.  Someone else thought that
the digital readout was registering percentage, rather than actual
rounds.  Umm.  The rounds could be very short (10mm in height), and
could fit in the clip sideways, or 10/row, or something.  Not a very
likely possibility, I'm afraid.  As to the percentage readouts, it
seemed to me that the readout decremented by one each time it fired.
I'd say that it was an actual count.

I've some quibbles about the display itself.  It looked like your
average red led display.  My old calculator had a red led
display--the display was illegible in anything approaching daylight.
They should have used back-lit lcd's (yeah, I know, picky picky).

Which brings up another point--the low technology in the film.  I
could understand fashions being almost indistinguishable from modern
fashions.  Fashion doesn't have to be reasonable.  Anyway, the
loader that Ripley was walking about was powered by what seem to be
hydraulic cylinders.  Computer displays were crt's (Oh.  I liked
Burkes' biscard.  Entirely reasonable.  Seemed like a good enough
idea that people ought to be doing it in 10 years).  Major weapons
were still slug throwers and flame throwers (not really much of a
quibble; it maybe that slug throwers are the best that can be done
for personal armament).  About the only advance in weaponry seems to
be the ability to stick many cubic feet of ammo or fuel into a few
cubic inches (the fuel for the flame throwers and the welder/cutting
torches, the ammo for the machine guns).  The motion sensor seems a
bit strange.  I thought that whatever they were using on the
Nostromo was based on detecting motions in the air.  They shouldn't
have been able to see past an air-tight door.  The detectors the
military were using were much superior to this.  I can't see how
they were supposed to work.

It seems that once the companies took over Earth, most innovation
and scientific research stopped.  The hyperdrive was probably
invented sometime before the corporate state developed.  I wonder if
the other companies are as generally sleazy as Ripley's.  Probably.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 00:31:58 edt
From: markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: alien evolution?

Has anybody given any thought to the following?:

Due to some sad hard luck on the part of the Nostromo's crew, the
facehugger that fastened itself to J. Random Crewmember's face in
*ALIEN* was a young queen.  The young queen grew up to be a big
queen.  She was big, mean, and nasty (yes, the biggest, meanest,
nastiest father-raper of them all :-), just like her counterpart in
*ALIENS*.  And since she was a queen, she had the ability to
impregnate Dallas (whom Ripley was forced to kill in the book).
Actually, she might just have quickly laid an egg and let that hatch
while Dallas was cocooned...

Also, if the facehuggers are really "analyzers", they must be able
to analyze at a distance.  Otherwise, how do they know that Jonesie
would not be a viable host?  And how do they know, without fastening
on to them, that Ripley and Newt *are* viable hosts?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 86 20:26:27 edt
From: markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: mumblety-peg, android style

Uh, I may be missing something, but I thought that Bishop covered
Hudson's hand with his own before starting to play.  And it seemed
like he wiped a drop of "blood" from one of his fingers afterward,
drawing a wiseass comment from one of the grunts about "losing his
touch".

Mark L. Lambert
markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 17:35:06 GMT
From: fritzz@net1.UCSD.EDU (Friedrich Knauss)
Subject: Knife Games in Aliens, and more BB trivia.

The Knife Game in Aliens (mistakenly called mumbelty peg) seems to
come from a movie called _Dark Star_ that was made by the producer
of the original Alien: Dan O'Bannon. I wonder if it was on purpose.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 17:20:55 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: plausibility in movies (re: aliens)

srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> Most of the replies to my original objections to *ALIENS* have
> been pretty lame.  And why are they all cast as "refutations"?

Lame?  Just what do you mean?  You put forth "X is implausible".
Folks reply "X follows naturally from Y".  This is lame?  Oh, I see:

> The bad thing about all the replies is that they all either
> postulate some kind of explanation that has no basis in the movie
> or refer to the book.  Personally I feel that the movie has to
> stand on its own and be internally consistent without reference to
> a "book" that is written after the movie and with a conscious
> intention to explain away problems in the movie.

Strange.  Take *ANY* movie on these grounds, and it falls apart.
Let's look at, say, any WWII movie that includes reference to the
extermination camps, or the persecution of the Jews.  You are asking
me to beleive that all those Jews went to the camps with relatively
little struggle?  You mean nobody in the general population helped
them?  What's that?  You say it's plausible if you remember the
social climate of the time, the Nazi rise to power, the powerful
effect of Hitler's rhetoric?  But they didn't show any of that in
the movie!  The movie doesn't stand on it's own!

A movie is finite.  It is not possible to show justifications for
every possible implausibility.  Thus, in order for an apparent
inconsistency to really be a "hole" in a movie, there must be no
plausible explanation.  I'd take any explanation which includes only
elements already in the movie, or extrapolated from current or
historical situations, as being "plausible".  Stretching a point,
explanations that draw on scenarios current in the genre, in this
case relatively-near- future-SF-extrapolated-from-Western-Society,
would also count as "plausible".

Since in every case, plausible explanations (according to the above
criteria) were provided to your "objections", I'd say it is quite
fair to class these replies as "refutations".

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 17:24:38 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: are the Aliens eeee-vil?

OK, I agree with those that think the Aliens aren't evil.

But I still say, "nuke 'em from orbit"!
It's the only way to be sure!

More seriously, is Ripley as "bad" as Rambo?  In my opinion, no.  If
there were a real alien race that had the approximate
characteristics of the Aliens, and if the movie portrayal were an
intentionally distorted, biased, caricature of these aliens, then my
opinion might change.

But if the Aliens *really* existed, and if they were *really* as
they were portrayed in the movie, then

                        NUKE 'EM FROM ORBIT!
                IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE!   :-)

(Good slogan for a T-shirt, no? :-)

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  4-AUG-1986 21:24 EDT
From: Ronald A. Jarrell  <JARRELLRA%VTMATH.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens

In the book (and in the movie too, if you know what they're trying
to show from having read the book) the reason that spunkmeyer left
the dropship and left the ramp down was that he was delivering a
cart of supplies to Bishop in the medlab

"This all you need?  Bishop?  Yo Bishop!"  (or some such)

He was just getting back to the dropship when Hicks called for
recall.

Ron

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 86 14:27:15 EDT
From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com>
Subject: Aliens

Several people have mentioned Vasquez's comment "Lets ROCK".  This
comes from the expression to "Rock and Roll".  Apart from its
musical meaning this is military jargon meaning to fire your weapon
on full automatic (like a machine gun).  Whether such jargon will
really be around in N number of years to use on such cute "bugs" is
another question.

As to some of the comments on the military advisability of leaving
no people on the space transport and the lander standing with its
ramp open in hostile territory, I think that any halfway decent
military service would have standard operating procedures against
such stupidity.  HOWEVER from the way that this operation was being
run I was not surprised to see it.  The officer in charge appeared
to be a total incompetent, and such people will often not carry out
SOP.  Even more incredible was the neat high tech way he had of
"leading" his men.  Any military orginization that does not have the
officers with their men but in some safe area directing the
operations deserves, and WILL inevitably, get its a-s kicked.
Without leadership to quickly make decisions and know the REAL
situation by BEING there, they will f--k up.  What soldiers will
want to go into some sticky situation that their commander is not
willing to go into with them?  I realize that this was deliberately
done this way in the movie but it still burned me up.

Michael Laufer
mlaufer@bbn.com (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 16:28:36 GMT
From: rayssd!m1b@caip.rutgers.edu (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Re: Asimov's 1st Law and Aliens

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes:
>A robot or android programmed with Asimov's 1st law couldn't be
>used as crew on a military vessel, since it would do everything in
>its power to prevent the humans aboard from putting themselves into
>dangerous situations, even if the humans ordered it to do so.

   If the robot were programmed with the 0th law of robotics, he
could, would, and would probably insist that they go down.  The
welfare of the human race would outweigh the welfare of a few
individuals.  Of course, his name would have been R. Giskard or R.
Daneel. :-)

Joe Barone
{allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2}!rayssd!m1b
Raytheon Co
Submarine Signal Div.
1847 West Main Rd
Portsmouth, RI 02871

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 10:42:00 GMT
From: nomura@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: ALIENS inconsistency ?

The timing of the destruction of the colony isn't a coincidence.
There is a conversation between Ripley and Burke, where she
confronts him with the order he issued which set the colonists onto
the infected alien ship, resulting in their infection.  Probably
Ripley gave the coordinates of the ship, which had previously gone
unnoticed, and only then was the Company able to investigate it.
Though that does bring up the question of the dead ship's distress
beacon - it should have been noticed.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 86 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #238
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 238

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 86 17:22:49 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: *ALIENS* (Spoilers)

>Deep Sleep.  [...]  First of all, in a deep space craft you can
>carry just about as much as you want, especially of things like
>oxygen and food, if you are willing to stick them outside of the
>battle structure.

Absolute garbage.  Parts is parts, mass is mass.  The more mass, the
more energy to move the mass, and the more expensive.  This is as
true in deep space as in shallow.  For the forseeable future,
spacecraft will be mass limited to one extent or another.  (Yes, I
know that the Nostromo was an entire factory in space.  Doesn't
affect this argument... the time scales are enough different.)

>Would you be willing to let yourself be frozen/chemically slowed to
>save 17 days?  Not me.

Then don't join the Colonial Marines, see if I care.

>Mumblety-Peg. Hudson's hand was on top of Bishop's hand, remember?

No, I don't remember it that way at all.  Maybe I'm editing my
memory of the scene, but it makes sense only if Bishop is *holding*
*down* Hudson's hand.  And even if your objection were true, this
would be the most miniscule of consistency slips... I would guess
that 90% of movies contain worse blunders.  I *still* rate Aliens as
easily in the top 10% of movies, rated on consistency alone.

>Using Weapons Under the Thermal Converters.  Yes, I was aware that
>the "thermal overload" was already underway.  That DOESN'T mean
>that it was now safe for Ripley to use her weapons in a carte
>blanche fashion.

It is enough if Ripley merely *thought* it was now safe.  It is
fairly clear that it is plausible for her to think that an already
failed plant couldn't be further damaged, so your objection is moot.
And further:

>If I'm wandering around in a fusion reactor that's going to
>overload and blow sky-high in ten minutes, the last thing I'm going
>to do is go around shooting the place up and hasten the process.

The point is that you *DON'T* *KNOW* that shooting things up would
hasten the process.  Ripley may well know better than you do...
assuming that she is more ignorant than the movie viewers about her
own universe is what is technically known as "picky, picky, picky".
Since her actions make perfect sense if we just assume she knows
what she's doing on this point, it's not reasonable to call this
inconsistent.  Why should we assume that she was correct in her
(explicit) prediction of disaster the first time, and incorrect in
her (implicit) prediction of (relative) safety the second time?  As
Tommy Fenagin would say: "Well, now you're just being silly!"

>Hovering Out of Sight of the Platform.  Justify this all you want.

I don't have to justify.  This is clearly your weakest point.
Bishop explains himself in the movie just before the Queen makes
synthetic mincemeat out of him.  Your specific additional quibbles
are also feeble:

>Clearly the movie-makers just wanted to build a little tension at
>this point.

So what?  They "built the tension" plausibly.

>There is too much wind inside a building for a landing craft to
>hover near the platform?  Yeah, THAT seems likely.

Just look at the scale of the building.  It is the size of a small
mountain.  You don't think that a large crevice in a mountain could
have gale-force winds blowing around?  With large thermal gradients
to feed them, as there were here?  To call this implausible is
perverse.

>And how would Bishop know when to return?  And why didn't he return
>immediately?

He was watching from wherever he was waiting.  It takes finite time
to move the landing craft.  What's the big deal?

>Cheap Movie Making.  Ripley's dream.  Need I say more?  How cheap
>can you get?

Maybe.  But they wanted to show *us* what it was like for *Ripley*
to have this dream... to actually think it was real.  This is a
fairly common technique, used in many films.  So, yes, you need to
say more.  Why was this any cheaper than finding out at the end of
the Wizard of OZ that the *entire* *movie* had been a dream?  And
this was even a departure from the books!  Talk about cheap!  So I'd
conclude that again, Aliens rates better than many movies on
"cheapness-of-dream- sequences".

>Leaving the Landing Doors Open on the Shuttle.  Please don't blame
>this on the incompetent commander.  He wasn't even there.  At any
>rate, professional soldiers aren't that dumb - especially not after
>they've survived a few missions.  They have protocols beaten in to
>them, and they follow them.  In a large part, that's what makes
>them survive.

Sigh.  You have answered your own objections.  "They have protocols
beaten into them".  Yep.  And the commander declared the area
"secured".  So they followed the protocols for a secured area.
Claiming that "professional soldiers aren't that dumb" flies in the
face of reality.  Again, what's the big deal?

>The real objection I have to the movie is that that plot is so
>obviously constructed to fit suspense/adventure story needs.  Just
>look at the kinds of strange plot twists that are used:

If the plot was constructed differently, without plot twists and so
on, it is no longer a suspense/adventure story.  So what is your
objection?  That they didn't make the story your way?  You wanted
maybe a comedy?  Poor baby!

>If the marines go in prepared for the Aliens, its a wipeout.

So what?  "If the Navy had been prepared at Pearl Harbor."  "If the
Bay of Pigs invasion had been better prepared."  "If Custer had had
some Uzi automatic weapons."  "If pigs had wings."

Your objections that the company "Would have trusted Ripley" are
just silly.  People who "ought" to be trusted are ignored, and their
advice discarded every day.

>If the marines can get back up to the orbital ship, they blow up
>the place and the story's over.  So the marines do two *idiotic*
>things: Leave the ramp on the landing craft open and unguarded and
>take everyone to the surface.

Monday morning quarterbacking can make anybody look like a hero.

>It's a lot more suspenseful if the marines go into the lair
>unarmed, so another couple of strange twists: The aliens build
>their lair a long way from their food source, under a nuclear
>reactor (why?), and the marines don't retreat out to re-arm more
>appropriately.

Again, so what?  You object to suspense?  Suspenseful or not, it is
*plausible* that it could have happened that way (or at least, not
bad enough to disturb most folks suspension of disbelief).  It
certainly wasn't as implausible as some things that are known to
have happened.

Also, you are playing fast and loose with the facts presented in the
movie.  People aren't a "food source"... they are a reproductive
resource.  We don't know from either movie what the aliens eat.
Being away from the colony might have many, many advantages, like
making a sneak counter-attack on the Queen more difficult.  There
are many, many plausible reasons for the Aliens to prefer the
environment under the cooling system to that of the colony.  And
they don't re-arm more appropriately because at that time they don't
believe Ripley's notions of what is appropriate.  Face it.  It's all
quite sensible.  It's only the Monday morning quarterback syndrome
that might make it seem otherwise.

>In order to get some good firefights, the aliens are constantly
>sneaking up on the humans from above or below - as if space marines
>would somehow be blind to 3-d tactics.  And even if they were once,
>wouldn't they catch on sooner or later?

Name the instances of "constantly sneaking".  As far as I can see,
there was only one, and that was because they didn't know that the
ceiling cavity was common to all the rooms.  The other instances of
"sneaking up" don't need one to assume that the marines were
forgeting anything.  There was enough going on that it was plausible
that they simply couldn't keep a 360 degree lookout.  They didn't
need to forget that 3d exists... they merely couldn't look in all
directions at once.

(And they weren't "space marines".  They were "colonial marines".
There is no particular reason for them to be any more mindful of
3-d-ness than any other folks.)

>In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we
>make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna.
>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a
>beacon on automatic.  Second, if we can build an android
>indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI
>personality on board the orbital ship?  Third, why does Bishop have
>to pilot using a keyboard and joystick?  He doesn't have a remote
>plug or radio link built in?

Sigh.  None of this is remotely *implausible*.  I mean really, why
are so many bathrooms made to make defecation difficult?  Why aren't
houses designed more ergonomically?  Why are cars internal
combustion when other alternatives are more efficent?  Why are so
many computer terminals QWERTY when Dvorak is "better"?  Why do
humans still have an appendix?  Why are people so picky about some
movies while (presumably) overlooking gaping holes in others?

>It's like a cheap horror film where sixteen >people have been
killed in the basement and the heroine decides to check it >out in
her nightgown and one flickering candle.  At some point you have to
>say "C'mon!".  I didn't think *Alien* was too bad in this respect,
but >*Aliens* reeks of cheap, calculated movie-making.

Gad, what a warped sense of proportion.  If Aliens reeks, then most
other movies must require total-environment suits for the audience
to avoid the stench.  I mean really, the points you are picking on
are about as plausible as *real* events, let alone as plausible as
events from other movies.  Lighten up, guy.  Sheesh.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 00:52:23 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Oooh, A Fight!  A Fight!  (And more _ALIENS_)

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>That's an interesting stand.  I doubt you'd like a book that
>couldn't be interpreted - either from a conceptual or literary
>standpoint - without aid of another book. (Except perhaps as
>"experimental" literature.)

Ever hear of a "trilogy"?  Most multivolume books don't stand on
their own.  More to the point, a lot of literature, as distillation
and presentation of cultural archetypes, relies on a knowledge of
other cultural archetypes as CONTEXT.  There is also a good deal of
tradition in storytelling.  Most of your gripes about Aliens had to
do with your apparent innocence with regards to those traditions.
Science fiction as a genre has answered most of your TECHNICAL
objections with "This is the way it is, these are the conventions of
the postulated technology, now we will explore how this affects
people".

>> If they had no FTL of some kind, then how did they get from
>> Gateway to Acheron in less than a month?  You tell us, Scott.
>
>If they had FTL, why did they use cold sleep?  Not to save mass, as
>you suggest, since normal physics of acceleration don't matter and
>17 days of O2 masses considerably less than a room full of sleep
>equipment.  You tell us, hutch.

Who says normal physics of acceleration don't matter?  Since the FTL
was not explained, any arguments we make are speculation.  Your
speculation is as good as mine, as long as it fits with what they
presented us.  However, we should be careful not to put our own
assertions in and then complain that the movie was inconsistent
because it violated them.

And, as I pointed out before, there is a distinct possibility that
they couldn't use the gravity generators while accelerating to FTL.
In that case, they may go into coldsleep because they want to keep
from losing calcium from their bones and making other potentially
harmful adaptations to zero gravity.  As was demonstrated, coldsleep
greatly slows down those kinds of physical processes (Ripley's hair
only grew 4 inches in 57 years).

>And had you been there, spraying gunfire, the tower would have gone
>up before you'd gotten anywhere near Newt.  I don't object to
>Ripley using gunfire as a last resort, but she went in intending to
>shoot the place up, which is both dumb and out of character.

The tower did not go up because the weapons were too small to cause
an immediate breakdown of the fusion plant controls.  The plant went
because of the cumulative damage to the coolant systems caused by
Valdez' weapons and the crashed shuttle.  We don't know enough about
how the systems were (hypothetically) designed to tell why the thing
didn't just stop fusing, since I personally think the fuel-delivery
system should have been set up to stop operating if the coolant
system stopped.  THAT can be blamed on a poor understanding on the
part of the writers of how nuclear systems are designed, and partly
blamed on the "yet another threat" syndrome.

Ripley's actions were Not out of character; she knew she might be
killed but she HAD to go in to get Newt.  She did exactly what was
necessary to keep the bugs away from her, strafing or flaming any
place where she suspected they might be hiding.

>>WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PLOT TO BE, A BLIPPING ROMANCE?
>
>I was making a distinction between the story aspect of the movie
>and the adventure aspect.  A lot of critics have compared _Aliens_
>to a rollercoaster ride.  I think that aspect is too prominent in
>the film, and led the film makers and script writers into some
>stupid plot maneuvers.

Then why didn't you say that the first time?  I agree that there
were some REALLY stupid things happening, but not one of them was
unbelievable.  If you want to hear about even stupider things, read
mod.risks for a few days, or look at an account of the attempted
rescue of the Iranian Embassy hostages.  Real life people are
tremendously stupid.  We are spoiled, in a movie, by having a
limited sense of omniscience.  We KNOW that there will be aliens all
over the place, we KNOW the Colonial Marines should leave a backup
on the ship.  But THEY don't because in their experience they
haven't ever run into anything they couldn't handle.

>My objection is that the suspense/adventure part of the film could
>have been done a lot more cleverly - I'm sick of stories where the
>suspense arises out of the stupidity of the characters.

I agree.  I think that in Aliens, the suspense is already there, and
is ENHANCED by the stupidity of the characters.  We know that even
if they are smart and careful, they'll end up in deep sh*t.  And
then, frustration, that IDIOT Lieutenant BOTCHES his command.

>Why does the commander always have to be an idiot?  Portraying the
>military as "dumb" has become de facto since Vietnam.  I'm tired of
>it.  It is an easy out for script writers that adds nothing to the
>movie.

This particular commander is an idiot because he is a green
lieutenant.  It is SO RARE to find a lieutenant who ISN'T green (and
arrogant, and convinced that he's right) that when they DO find one,
they make her a Captain REAL FAST.

>Question: Would _Aliens_ have been a better movie if the commander
>and the marines had been top-notch, made no mistakes and still been
>nearly killed by the Aliens (led by a hideously intelligent Queen)?

Not necessarily.  It might have made a good D&D game that way
though.  Seriously, the audience identification for fallible people
is better than for the invulnerable Ubermensch.  A squad of Rambos
and Commandos might not have all died, but then where would they get
the alien-tongue repellent (analogue of bullet-repellent)?

>>NO armor would have worked.  The only substance we've seen which
>>isn't dissolved by alien-blood is alien-hide.
>
>Yawn.  Is this the joke about the universal solvent again?  And how
>about the specimen jars in the lab?  And you jibe me for being
>science ignorant.

I don't believe in molecular acid.  However, in the movie, they have
the baby facehuggers floating in some clear liquid.  Probably, since
they know the aliens can do this acid stuff, the liquid is a
"molecular alkaline" or some such crap.  However, I advise that if
you ever find a bottle of hydrofluoric acid, that you keep it in the
proper container.

For some reason your article got cut off at this point.  I plan to
move any further variations on this discussion to mail rather than
inflicting them on the net.  See you in the movies.

Hutch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Aug 86 0759-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #239
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 239

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Bladerunner,
                 Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                         Old SF Programs,
                 Miscellaneous  - Time Travel & 
                         Black Holes


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 01:58:20 GMT
From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner / DADOES

[FYI: DADOES = _Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep_]

chabot@3d.dec.com writes:
>But even more than that, I was immensely disappointed in the plot,
>having been a fan of Dick for years.  Perhaps I should not have
>prep'ed so much by reading DADOES, but that was six months before
>the release of BR.  It was more like Mike Hammer in the 21st
>Century than a P K Dick story.

bishop@usc-oberon.UUCP (Brian Bishop) writes:
> I too am a BIG fan of PKD, but I can deal with the differences....

     I can not only deal with the differences, I like the movie much
better than the book.  The book seems to deal with the "brutal,
emotionless, unsympathetic android" stereotype, which may have been
great for 1968, but which just doesn't wash for me.  In DADOES, the
androids definitely are "the bad guys", if there are any.  In BR,
they are brutal but very, very sympathetic; mortals with a greater
sense of their mortality than any human.  My views on artificial
intelligence make the androids of BR much more realistic than those
in DADOES.  (I don't ask everyone to think this way...)

     Bishop then goes on to describe what's "very right" about BR.
I agree with him INCREDIBLY about this (especially the
blood-and-vodka shot, which is one of my favourite images in ANY
movie).  DADOES deals with emotion, BR with mortality; neither theme
is very original, but somehow the movie treats its theme infinitely
better and more originally than does the book from which it was
made.  And I, too, was amazed at how much great stuff Scott (or
whoever) put into the movie; e.g. Roy's death scene, which in the
book is just the blowing-away of a rather pompous, nasty baddie.
LONG LIVE _BLADE RUNNER_!

     In fact, I find that (in general) I like SF movies a lot better
than I like SF books.  I generally find SF books to be bad writing
based on fairly neat ideas, and that's all.  Even "classic" SF has
this effect on me (all the Heinlein I've ever read, and McCaffrey's
Pern books are good examples; _Neuromancer_ is a notable exception).
Dick's style is better than most, but he had some writing habits
that annoy me.

     Why SF movies are so much better is puzzling.  Perhaps the
visual aspects of SF attract great movie-makers more than its
literary aspects attract great writers.

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 86 16:43:05 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Philosophical issues in ST II and III

caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) says:
>The Enterprise has been damaged in a number of episodes...

     We didn't really *see* it.  The characters fall out of their
chairs, sparks flash, and a recorded background voice says the
gravity's down to 0.8.  ST II was the first time we really *saw* the
Enterprise being torn up-- phasers hacking apart the hull &
everything.  It drove home the point more strongly than ever before.

>...and important characters have been killed before.
>
>Star Trek has a real "problem" with death.  It is an acceptable way
>of disposing of some of Kirk's lovers, but anyone worth his weight
>in energy can be recreated in a transporter, as was done in one of
>the novels.

     Agreed, but that's a fault of a weekly series, when the
starring actors have contracts.  It didn't apply to the movies.  (At
least not ST II.  Like I said, ST III weaseled out on the mortality
theme by bringing back Spock.)

>Recall, I said "interesting" philosophical issues.

     I don't see why "interesting" has to mean "new."  The classical
Greek plays are still considered "interesting" by many people, even
though they're a few thousand years old and raise some rather common
philosophical/moral issues.  If you mean *new* issues, then say so.

     Speaking of Greek plays, there's another interesting aspect of
ST II-- Khan fit the part of a tragic figure.  Athough a potentially
great man, he was destroyed by ambition and his lust for revenge.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : :akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4:!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 09:43 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek (long)
Cc: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>, Alastair Milne

All this discussion on how the Big E should really have blown up
reminds me of a fascinating (and very bitter) argument that occured
after STII in a ST Letterzine (Interstat).  One fan insisted that
the movie was ruined by many flaws, and ended up focusing on the
radiation barrier behind which Spock died.  She maintained that it
was impossible for a radiation shield to be transparent (My theory
was that it wasn't transparent, but that it had visible light
receptors and transmitters on each side.) and a vicious argument
ensued.

In other words, I can nit pick with the best of them, but I couldn't
care less if the Big E's destruction looked right or not.  My
problem is that it was a lousy solution to the problem.  I sat down
with some fans and we came up with about a dozen other ways the
situation could have been handled.  But the script called for the
Enterprises's destruction.  That was that.

As to different views of ST (characters, Enterprise, philosophy),
things are getting confused by the many different kinds of fans.
So, let me give you my categories:

Trek fans -- largest group, they watch the show and like it, but
don't think much about it or see much in it.  They're the ones who
see the show as "Beam me up, Scotty" and pointed ears.

Trekkies -- wildly devoted fanatics, second largest group.  They buy
the ST novels, attend conventions.  They're most likely to focus on
the characters, usually just one.  ie, a Kirk Trekkie can't imagine
a ST without Kirk, or a Spockie without Spock, etc.

Trekkers -- smallest group.  They run the clubs, write for fanzines,
think about the philosophy of the show.  They're focusing on some
gestalt ST, philosophy, if you will.  They're more likely to read
SF, too, and so, I was assuming that most of the people writing to
SFLovers on ST would be in this category, hence my surprise at the
letters published, in spite of the other appeals of the show pointed
out by Alastair and Frank (please call me "Lisa" -- This "Ms. Wahl"
stuff seems quite inappropriate in the ST family.)

I think that ST had some fine writers, and the success of a new
series is dependent on the ability to get more of their like.
Sadly, one of ST's best writers, Gene Coon, died some time ago, but
others, such as DC Fontana, are still available.  And there are many
good writers who are ST fans, and ST fans who are good writers.  I
believe the talent is out there, if only the producers will seek it
out.

Tastes change and trends change.  I believe that there are ST
episodes comparable to MASH episodes, because I first watched ST in
the era in which they were made, as I did MASH.  (Sure, SF should
weather the test of time better, but that's a tall order.  Name me a
futuristic tv show, episode or movie made around ST's time that
still looks futuristic now!), ST was sometimes rather heavy-handed
in its commentary, as MASH rarely was -- but look at the times!  You
had to be heavy handed then -- people weren't prepared for subtlety.

Add to list of commentary episodes, my favorite "A Private Little
War" about Vietnam.  Also "Miri" about the generation gap.  "A Taste
of Armegeddon" about man's ability or inablity to overcome his
instinct for war.

From what I've heard, both Kirstie and her agent were at fault in
overestimating what money she could demand.  A friend of mine
started the first Kirstie Alley fan club, and from reports from her,
both Kirstie and her agent aren't terribly reasonble people.

I remember hearing about Saavik being a half-Romulan long before
STII came out.  But then, I remember hearing enough about Deltans so
that Illia's "my oath of celebacy is on record" line didn't seem
like the non sequitur remark the TMP made it.  I think I remember
seeing a trailer that mentioned her Romulan half.  In any case, I'd
say her half-Vulcan half-Romulan heritage is an established piece of
ST lore, even if it never got mentioned in a movie.

"ST:The Early Years" sounds like an absolutely marvelous new series!
I wish someone would talk the studios into it.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 86 18:21:25 cdt
From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
Subject: SF-TV programs

Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from
my childhood in the sixties.  I am not reviewing or recommending any
of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a child
who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff."

LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson".
This was one of my favorite shows when I was growing up, in the
mid-sixties.  The first family of colonists blasted off into space,
amidst much hullabaloo (a sixties word and TV show, for all you
trivia fans). There was the handsome scientist father Robinson
(played if I am not mistaken by the actor who portrayed Zorro in the
TV series -- Guy Madison), the competent domestic scientist mother
Robinson (June Lockhart, Timmy's mother on Lassie), the typical
Gidget-clone teenage girl Robinson (a bland blonde), the love
interest, a junior scientist named Don, (the actor playing him is a
bad guy on some current daytime soap), the pre- adolescent spunky
younger sister Robinson (Angela Cartwright, of Make Room for Daddy),
and the obligatory whiz kid Robinson (some non- discript child actor
).  Of course there was the robot, Robbie, and a shaggy dog of some
sort.  The bad guy was a scientist who got trapped on the Robinson's
flying saucer (really) while trying to sabotage it and caused it to
change course and send the courageous Robinsons across the universe
and into endless adventure.  The first time I ever saw Michael J.
Pollard was on "Lost in Space" in an episode that had Angela
confronting, in a typically confusing sixties TV way, her emerging
sexuality.

MY FAVORITE MARTIAN - who can ever forget Bill Bixby as the bumbling
reporter and Ray Walston as his "Uncle Martin", the Martian stranded
on earth, trying to use Earth's primitive technology to get back to
Mars while at the same time trying to keep his young earthling
friend out of trouble, avoid the love-struck landlady, and remain
undiscovered by the authorities.  Uncle Martian had antennae and
zapped things with his finger.

THE LAND OF THE GIANTS - a group of commuters on a 21st century
shuttle get caught in some sort of warp and end up on a planet of
giant humans (or maybe they get shrunk...this was never made clear).
Anyway, life on this planet is suspiciously like 1960's America,
except for the Facist government in power.  There is a fat bad guy
(played by Kurt Kazner), the intrepid captain, a co-pilot, an elder
statesman/scientist type, a beautiful, semi-intellegent girl, and
the gee-whiz-kid.

THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff.

THE WILD, WILD WEST - well, maybe not really science fiction but
they had a lot of neat gadgets.

VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of any
of the stars, or any of the stories, but I know my sister watched
this religiously.  US Navy nuclear submarine zapping around the
world doing stuff underwater.

THE VISITORS - this one was great! David Jansen getting chased all
over America again (remember The Fugitive?) as a reporter who has
discovered that aliens have invaded Earth and are replacing humans
(sort of a 30 minute _Invasion_of_the_Body_Snatchers_).

THE LAND OF THE LOST - my personal favorite, a Saturday morning
live- action kid's show. I watched it at first because Wesley Eure
(an actor on the daytime soap opera The Days Of Our Lives) was the
star. Then, in reruns, I forced my children to watch it every
Saturday morning and now years later we still watch the reruns
together.  A father, son, and daughter get trapped in a pre-historic
parallel Earth, complete with dinosaurs, the missing link, and the
remnants of a once great reptilian civilization.

Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 07:00:35 GMT
From: mcvax!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes:
> Why would it be a contradiction?  Causal loops are certainly
> strange, but they can be drawn on a Minkowski space-time diagram
> easily enough.

I can imagine something like a flat space with one temporal
coordinate t and (for simplicity) a spatial coordinate x, in which
two parallel slits are made at t=t0 and t=t1, t0 < t1, for x in
(0,1) say, and then the early cut side of the later slit is pasted
to the late cut side of the earlier slit:

  x ^
    |    o                                            o
    |    |has come out there     what will enter here |
    |    |ere has come out there     what will enter h|
    |    |er here has come out there     what will ent|
    |    | enter here has come out there     what will|
    |    o                                            o
    |
     ------------------------------------------------------> t

Now, I find this picture unsatisfactory.  It can be somewhat
improved by also pasting the two remaining loose cut sides together.
But at the end points of the slits, we keep some kind of
singularity.  One might consider, instead, some kind of continuous
tubular "handle" or "ear" coming, so to speak, out of the plane and
folding back on it.  The manifold you get then must be curved.  I
have been trying to figure out, with no success, what the
consequences are if you assume that general relativity holds in a
universe with such a topology.  The idea is that the stuff is
locally (almost) Euclidean if sufficiently removed from the handle.
Also, the handle itself is short compared to the temporal distance
it spans.  Another way to say this is that we cut out two disks and
identify the edges in some locally smooth manner.

Question.  Is there someone out there who is able to see if this can
be made to make sense in the framework of General Relativity?  If
so, what phenomena would be observed by experimenters who are bold
enough to venture in the vicinity of the non-Euclidean part of their
universe?  What happens to the solution of the usual (locally
hyperbolic) wave equations?  This last question purports to model
causal loops and their concomitant temporal paradoxes.

Lambert Meertens, CWI, Amsterdam; lambert@mcvax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 22:36:45 GMT
From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop)
Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen

RE: the discussion about black holes expelling mass - I wrote a
paper on the topic two years ago. As I recall, it was Hawking's
idea, and I believe it has been verified, or at least fairly well
accepted. It happens when two particles (matter and antimatter) are
produced near the event horizon of a black hole; the antimatter gets
sucked in (and goes poof!), and the matter escapes - a net
generation of a particle (or energy) from the viewpoint of us
observers. Needless to say, the pairs need to be produced in just
the right configuration for this to happen, but you know uncertainty
(or at least, I thought I did, now I'm not sure...)

brian bishop
bishop@usc-ecl
bishop@usc-oberon
(uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol)!usc-oberon!bishop

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Aug 86 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #240
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 240

Today's Topics:

             Films - Howard the Duck & Silent Running,
             Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & SF TV &
                     The Flight of the Dragons,
             Miscellaneous - SF Erotica & Time Travel & 
                     Footfall

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1986 09:41 CST
From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock)
Subject: HOWARD The DUCK!

      Last Night I went downtown to see another movie, as I do every
tuesday (Oh, how I love those $2.50 Tuesdays).  This week, the movie
to see was... HOWARD The DUCK!
      What's that you say?? Get out of here with a stupid kiddie
movie that was originally a comic book!  But, you're wrong on
several points.  First, HOWARD The DUCK is not a kiddie movie, and
the original mid-70's comic books that first brought Howard to fame
and fortune were DEFINITELY not meant to be read by children (how
many ducks do you know that sleep around with a human girlfriend??).
       For those of you who have not seen the movie, I highly
recommend that you do so.  If you weren't planning on going, change
your mind and get down to the nearest theatre!  This show is
incredibly funny, with fast-paced action and some of the neatest
light shows I've seen on the screen in a while.  For those of you
who wish to go only to shows with some heavy SF concepts, this show
can also supply some interest.
      I will not be too detailed, as I have no wish to spoil the
movie for anybody, but the general idea is that Howard is yanked out
of his own living by a space warp and is hurled through space to the
planet Earth, where he is confronted with hairless apes that do not
believe that he's really a duck.
      Go see it, even if for no other reason than to see a guest
shot by the Monolith during Howard's voyage to Earth.

John Bertram Geis <GEISJBJ@UREGINA1>

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 20:38:30 GMT
From: bambi!steve@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Miller)
Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes from)

> By the way, the songs from the movie are "Rejoice in the Sun" and
> "Running Silent", there was no song "Silent Running" in the movie.

The title is actually a submariner's term.  It refers to movement
underwater with the engines shut down; coasting.  This was and still
is a very effective anti-detection scheme.

In the film, Dern uses a similar technique, though it is to provide
an excuse to collide with Saturn's rings; he's hoping to be given up
for lost with this maneuver.

Sort of a silly title, really.  After all, "In space, no one can
hear [your engines]."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 09:02 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Saavik

I thought I was the only one who liked Kirstie Allie better.  All my
friends who have an opinion in the matter think the opposite.  It's
nice to know I'm not the only one.

In regards to a new Star Trek, I would like to see new actors
playing new characters.  Maybe a story here and there about Kirk's
early days, or Captain Pike's days as captain.  But let's not get
trapped into having 500 episodes with the same characters.  And
frankly, I'd like to see some civilian shows.  Let's see some of the
Federation from the inside, not the outside.

Just my opinion, humble.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 86 20:17:10 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.edu>
Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters

>Certainly the mainstream population equates Star Trek with "Beam me
>up, Scotty" and such, but to Star Trek fans, it is much more than
>the characters.

Ms. Wahl's point seems to be that the opposite appears true of many
fans.  From the remarks I've read about the films, I see what she
means.  Most of the postings seem to show more interest in specific,
long-established characters than in the world of which they're part.
I gather your preferences are more like hers, and, as far as I have
an opinion on the matter at all, I agree.

Besides, film makers and TV producers have to count on a larger
audience than just ST fans to make continued production financially
feasible.

>They destroyed the ship with the self-destruct mechanism.  This
>would not involve the antimatter in the warp generators because in
>desperate situations the engines might not be available.  Given
>time, they could have rigged a "logical" destruct.  They wouldn't
>design the ship to be easily destroyed, but the option *is*
>available (and starship captains love to bluff...).

What I meant is that the self-destruct mechanism should have used
antimatter.  I should think the simplest, fastest, and most
foolproof method of utterly obliterating the ship would be to turn
off power to the magnetic bottles holding the antimatter stream, and
let it touch matter.  That should work no matter what the damage to
the warp generators (in fact, preventing it seems the hard part).
Of course, you still want alternate ways, in case, for instance, the
antimatter devices are gone altogether.  I imagine the password
system was the part intended to foil easy destruction, and after
that, you'd want the job done as quickly as possible (or the enemy
might be able to prevent it).

However, I don't ask for overmuch actual logic, and certainly not of
designers who would arrange that losing the engines would cause
phasers to be cut off (ST I, Decker's explanation following
worm-hole).  Logic on Star Trek is too often not much more than a
subject for discussion.

>. . .Star Trek can continue in the same way that MASH did, but not
>with MASH's writers.  What Star Trek needs is Star Trek's original
>writers and producers, etc.  Included were science fiction writers,
>. . . Fine writing was the rule, not the exception.

I'm sorry, but compared to what was on M*A*S*H, I have never seen
fine writing on Star Trek.  The closest I can recall is Harlan
Ellison's episode "City on the Edge of Forever".  M*A*S*H was
constantly dry, quick-witted, believable, with great impact: human,
even sentimental, without being slow or drippy.  I can't recall a
single episode of Star Trek which I could praise similarly.

BTW, I didn't actually mean that ST should grab M*A*S*H's writers;
merely that it could do with a large infusion of the writing skill
that went into M*A*S*H.  I think you'll find that if and when that
happens, more people than just devoted Star Trek fans will take a
real interest in continuing the stories.  And that would be good for
all of us.

>One factor is that the ideas in Star Trek were positive responses
>to the problems of the 60's.  It is necessary for ST to maintain
>the old tradition, while responding to new problems.  The fact that
>what ST represents is no longer fashionable is not the fault of
>Star Trek.  I wouldn't argue if you said that right now Star Trek
>is being run into the ground.

It seems ironic that a series ostensibly about the future should be
bogged in the past.  I find it hard not to fault the creators if
they can't be more imaginative than that ("our 23rd century sets
look really modern now: this is the 1980's!").

But I'm not at all sure I agree.  Apart from a few theme shows ("Let
That be your Last Battlefield", "The Way to Eden" (right title?) ),
I saw no particular social significance.  What problems of the 60's
were considered in "the Menagerie", "Catspaw", "the Corbomite
Manoeuvre", or "Conscience of the King", to name a few?  And "the
Squire of Gothos", "Plato's Stepchildren", and "Who Mourns for
Adonis" were actually rather silly.  Not that I'm complaining -- I
think social significance in entertainment should be given in
careful doses, unless you really know what you're doing -- but I
don't think ST at present can really claim it as a hindrance.

>Don't be so sure that Allie's agent is at "fault".  If she wanted
>to maintain her role as Saavik, she could have done so.  She simply
>decided to do other things.  And how did you find out that Saavik
>is half-Romulan?  It isn't mentioned in either of the movies...
>...although it's "true".  (correct me if I'm wrong)

My understanding is that for STIII, Allie's agent grossly
overestimated how much he could from the studio's for her -- much
more than the regulars were getting, so much that the studio didn't
even bother negotiating.  They simply turned down the request and
went elsewhere.  If so, the agent blew it for her, for the studio,
and for us.  It sounds not unlikely to me, but I have not seen it
confirmed in print.

I'm not sure where I first heard about her Romulan side.  McIntyre
expounded on it in her novelisation of ST II, making it clear that
it gave Saavik a different set of problems from Spock's, and perhaps
more difficult.  Or I might have heard it from a friend (who
probably read it in McIntyre).

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 05:32:53 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Dr. Phibes

From: Cthulhu <AD0R@tb.cc.cmu.edu>
>There are two movies that I've seen that I *really* liked, but not
>a lot of people seem to have ever heard of.  One was called
>Spectre, and stared Robert Culp.  I heard a rumor once that it was
>a tv pilot.

After STAR TREK died Gene Roddenbury tried to do pilots for three or
four different series, but none of them sold.  He tried to create
this supernatural series that would star Robert Culp and Gig Young.
It was pretty decent, though the special effects looked very STAR
TREKy.  John Hurt was sort of a guest star.

>The second is called Equinox, and seemed to have a *lot* of
>Lovecraftiness to it, even though it tried to stay within the
>normal devil/demon world.

This was an amateur film expanded into a feature.  It seems to me
Jim Danforth did a number of the animation effects with varying
degrees of quality.  The old professor is played by Fritz Leiber who
has been known for writing a fantasy story or two.  (Leiber's father
was the real actor in the family.  He played Liszt in the Claude
Rains PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, he was also in the Laughton HUNCHBACK OF
NOTRE DAME.)  1971.

>There was also a movie called Dr.  Strange, or something like that,
>that I found to bear quite a resemblance to Lovecraft's Hypnos.
>Anyone else?

Another interesting TV pilot, based (not too closely) on the comic
of the same name.  It was a well above the average TV fantasy fare.
John Mills plays Strange's Master/Teacher.  1978

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: The Flight of Dragons
Date: 6 Aug 86 21:53:46 GMT

I recently saw a fantasy film on network TV, titled "The Flight of
Dragons".  TV Guide says that the film was based on a novel by Peter
Dickinson (which is also the name of the main character), but the
closing credits listed a story by Gordon Dickson, which I believe
was called "The Dragon and St.  George".  I would tend to believe
that TV Guide screwed up, but I was not watching the credits that
closely, so perhaps I misread them.

Does anyone know either the true basis for this movie, or anything
about where the story by Gordon Dickson was published?

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET:    yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:     q110by04@cmccvc
DECNET:     by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 14:01:30 EDT
From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com>
Subject: SF Erotica

From: Marty Walsh  <MJWCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
>     Back in June I posted a request for erotic SF favorites.  I
>have begun compiling the list that hopefully more people will add
>to as time goes by. (Hint hint hint...)

A reasonably good book (if a bit tongue in cheek) is _Harlot's_Ruse_
by Esther M. Friesner.  It is has Gods, Wizards, Princes, magic and
more.  The protagonist practices the oldest profession and is
supposed to the the BEST.

There are the GOR books by John Norman.  I am not sure if these are
supposed to be sf or fantasy or what (good writing they are not).  I
have read a few and they have erotic, if a bit kinky, parts.

Michael Laufer
mlaufer@bbn.com (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1986 1331-PDT (Wednesday)
From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman)
Subject: Time Travel

A short while back there was a discussion involving the conservation
of matter over time.  One person said something about there being a
failure to conserve when an object, sent into the past (specifically
a block of gold) suddenly appeared and was "unaccounted for". The
other fellow made the point that there is no reason why time should
be the limiting factor.

Indeed, space is a continuum and we have no problem thinking about
moving an object through space.  Likewise time, so having an object
move temporaly is no big deal.

But...it still DOES violate conservation.

Why?

Because when you send the block of gold back, you are not replacing
the gold that was ALREADY THERE from which that gold block was made.

For example, take a small gold coin.  Send it 1 second into the
future.  (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the
matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance).  Now you
have two coins.

A more explicit example would be to send the coin back to a point
before it was minted, or before the gold was mined.  The gold in the
other location would still be there.

So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing pile of coins 16 times,
you get 65,000+ gold coins.  Clearly this violates conservation of
mass.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work.  Perhaps conservation itself is not
as absolute as we think...

RB

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 17:50:32 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: FOOTFALL in the Soviet Union

The following incident re FOOTFALL that occurred to us while
traveling to the Soviet Union may be of interest (excerpted from my
travelogue posted to net.travel):

   We crossed the border about 4:45 PM.  First we cleared Finnish
   passport control at the last Finnish town (Vainikkala).  Then we
   went a little ways further and the Soviet border control got on.
   First they collected the passports and visas and checked the
   compartment for any hidden persons.  It was then we discovered
   that the seats lifted up and there was luggage space under them!
   Then we crossed the border while they began doing luggage checks.
   For this, everyone went into the corridor.  Then the guard asked
   Mark to come back in and point out his luggage.  He went through
   Mark's luggage asking about various items.  When he got to Mark's
   copy of FOOTFALL, he looked at it and said, "It is forbidden,"
   and passed it to someone in the corridor.  They passed it around,
   trying to figure out what it was, but had trouble knowing what to
   make of it.  (Let's face it, most Americans wouldn't know what to
   make of a novel about elephants from outer space invading
   Kansas.)  They were trying to decide if it was "pornographia."
   Eventually they decide it wasn't and returned it.  What was
   notable was that their immediate reaction to something unknown
   was, "It is forbidden"--just like the Orwellian "Everything not
   required is forbidden."  Then I was called in.  They went over me
   with a metal detector, checked my pocket knife (no problem),
   glanced at my diary, and looked at my books.  The Xeroxes of
   articles on the post-moderns in science fiction also got passed
   around and returned.  They went through one other person's
   luggage from our compartment, and let the other three pass.  None
   of the guards ever smiled or even ceased scowling.  It was an
   interesting experience but not what I would call a pleasant one.

What is interesting is that Pournelle (one presumes it was
Pournelle) put some fairly anti-Soviet passages into FOOTFALL; we
were just lucky that the guards did hit on those.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Aug 86 0920-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #241
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 241

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 Aug 86 00:58:53-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: unjustified aliens complaints

srt@locus recently wrote that his objections were not satisfied by
any of the replies.  I disagree...

Deep sleep -- he says there is "no indication" that the ships had
hyperspace capability (& I assume Scott means any other FTL
capability, by whatever means) But there is -- it was stated that a
rescue mission would get there in 17 days if they didn't return
soon!  How could that be without FTL travel?

Mumblety-Peg -- Why has everyone assumed Bishop was programmed to
follow Asimov's 3 Laws?  I am baffled why everyone has seemed to
accept this as given.  First, he just gave a loose paraphrase of the
"don't hurt humans" law.  Second, even if the androids were
officially programmed to follow them, clearly the programming didn't
always work -- witness Ash in Alien!  It's my opinion that any
program sufficiently complex to simulate human thought will be quite
difficult to have an arbitrary absolute "never hurt humans" rule
slapped onto it.

Weapons fired in nuclear converter -- Jeez, she's under a ridiculous
amount of stress and clearly hyped up.  I think it would be much
LESS realistic if in this scene (& others) the characters acted as
calm and rational as you seem to think they should have.

Hovering out of sight of platform -- Perhaps hovering next to it
would blow the platform down too, if there are horizontal
stabilizing jets.  In fairness, I agree I thought this scene seemed
a cheap shot at suspense.

Dream sequence -- seemed quite good to me (& evidently other folks
in the theater.)

The rest of the complaints, about implausibilities specifically
introduced to supply action and plot twists, are probably justified
-- but I can't think of any action movie (and very few nonaction
movies) that don't have some implausibilities and coincidences to
advance the plot.  Even real life has 'em.

There were only 3 things that irked me when I left the theater: "Get
away from her, you bitch!" seemed a pretty forced and trite line.
"Not bad... for a human..." spoken as misguided comic relief.  And
the damn "Gobot" appearance of the power loader!  It was pretty
ridiculous looking to me -- like one of those animated movies that's
a long ad for Japanese robots.  Luckily the fight seemed well enough
done that I soon got into it, but when she first appeared from
behind the door, I couldn't help but think derisive thoughts about
Japanese transformer robots...

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 02:05:48 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Oooh, A Fight!  A Fight!  (And more _ALIENS_)

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>And had you been there, spraying gunfire, the tower would have gone
>up before you'd gotten anywhere near Newt.  I don't object to
>Ripley using gunfire as a last resort, but she went in intending to
>shoot the place up, which is both dumb and out of character.

Quite right.  Gunfire was a *last* resort.  She did not go in
intending to "shoot the place up."  What she did was try and make
sure that she and Newt would be able to get out.

She did shoot two aliens after rescuing Newt.  The real shootout did
not happen until later after the queen betrayed her trust.  "When
was that?" I hear you ask.

There was a beautifully filmed scene between Ripley and the Queen
where Ripley convinced the Queen to let her go or she would get hurt
"real bad."

Ripley accomplished this by firing a blast from her flamethrower to
the side after she was flanked by two aliens acting as guards.
After witnessing Ripley's firepower (no pun intended) she acquiesced
and after inclining her head, the two guards withdrew to permit
Ripley's exit (although they did not look very happy about this
turn).

Ripley did not get this far by being stupid, so she backs out
slowly.  She is almost free when an egg by her feet opens, thus
betraying the Queen's trust and allowing Sigourney's true acting
ability to come forward.  With a beautifully executed facial
you-double-crossing-bitch, Ripley cracks under the strain and allows
anger and fear to break loose.

Ripley would have been quite happy to leave without a showdown.
After all the Queen was going to buy the farm along with the rest of
the processor.  But even Ripley is human and she cracks.  Thus
begins the shootout which, at that point, can't accelerate the
reaction any more.

This was one of my favorite scenes in the movie and I am sorry to
see that so many people totally missed the point of that scene (and
it was done so well).  Not too surprising, I guess, when you
consider that it just might have been too subtle for the more
action-oriented viewers.

Joshua ("Twosome") Koppel (guest on this account)

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
Univ. of Chicago Comp Ctr.
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 05:11:44 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: re: Mark Leeper's review of ALIENS

>From:  mtgzz!leeper    (Mark R. Leeper)
>> ...In specific, the creature in the first film was invulnerable
>> to flame throwers, I think.  It seems to me that the new
>> creatures of the same species are not....
>
>I'm not sure that this is the case. I partially agree with your
>point.  When I came out of the film, it *seemed* to me that these
>Aliens were much too easy to kill, but that's just a superficial
>impression.

It has become a common comment.  I don't remember how good a shot
the humans got in the first film, but I thought they flamed it.  It
is certainly true that the marines were trained fighters and much
better equipped, it is hard to believe that an alien would seem so
totally impervious in the first film and even with the difference in
conditions, so much less so in the second.

>>     Another problem is the introduction of "soft characters."
>> The film introduces a child character.  It is a serious mistake
>> because scriptwriters are bound by certain unwritten rules akin
>> to chivalry about what can and cannot befall weak and sympathetic
>> characters like children....
>
>That depends on the director. Recall that Bruce's second victim in
>JAWS was a young boy.

Alex Kintner was an obnoxious brat.  He was hardly developed as a
sympathetic character.  That goes for any of the kids in ALLIGATOR
or even in MAD MAX BEYOND THUNDERDOME.  In ALIENS they develop Newt
in a much more sympathetic way.  There wasn't a doubt in my mind
that Newt would survive.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 17:36:20 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

A pretty hot discussion on a hot movie.  The last movie I enjoyed
this much was Return_to_Oz.  Now for once everyone seems to agree
with my choice!  :-)

fitz@ukecc.UUCP (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) writes:
>>Hicks is alone the with Bishop the whole time that Ripley is
>>Rambo-izing the nest.  Also, Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a
>>knock-out shot.  Hicks might not even know he was impregnated
>>(raped?).
>
>     In _Alien_, it was a considerable amount of time before the
>face-hugger crawled off Kane and died. The time it took for Ripley
>to find Newt after leaving the drop ship is comparable to the time
>it took for Dallas and Lambert to drag Kane to the Nostromo. And a
>Kane was killed less than one hour after the face-hugger crawled
>away.

Ugh, I just thought of something.  The face-hugger that took Kane
had never met a human before.  The queen, having presumably erupted
from a human, could be laying face-huggers/analyzers adapted to
humans.  One would guess that they would not have to go through the
analyzation process, just plug in an already adapted embryo.  This
wouldn't take as long.

In any case, if I was Ripley, I'd scan everyone just on general
principles.  And why didn't she nuke the original space ship???
Perhaps because she thought the colonial government would move in
and wipe them out, now that she's exposed the Company's coverup?

If there is another sequel, I would expect a full scale intersteller
war.  Perhaps we'll finally get to see Heinlein's Starship Troopers
on the big screen.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 07:25:57 GMT
From: richl@penguin.uss.tek.com (Rick Lindsley)
Subject: Re: *ALIENS* (Spoilers)

srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>* In order to get Bishop out of the action and build suspense, we
>make him pilot the ship down on remote from near the antenna.
>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a
>beacon on automatic.  Second, if we can build an android
>indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't we put at least an AI
>personality on board the orbital ship?  Third, why does Bishop have
>to pilot using a keyboard and joystick?  He doesn't have a remote
>plug or radio link built in?

I've got a theory on this that nobody else has yet put forth. Maybe
no one was ever *supposed* to be able to summon the drop ship in
that fashion, and that's why it seems so convuluted and jury rigged.
Maybe it just occurred to Bishop that it was possible to do so, but
didn't have the time to explain what needed to be done to somebody
else. I mean, if *he* could do it, in a battle situation why
couldn't the enemy?  Nobody in the attack ship to override that
command ... and the Marines are all busy right now so they don't
notice ... hmmm.

No, I don't put a *whole* lot of faith in this theory, but it *is*
something to consider.

Rick

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 23:59:08 GMT
From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>Deep sleep -- he says there is "no indication" that the ships had
>hyperspace capability (& I assume Scott means any other FTL
>capability, by whatever means) But there is -- it was stated that a
>rescue mission would get there in 17 days if they didn't return
>soon!  How could that be without FTL travel?

   There could have been another ship, station or planet near enough
to have performed a rescue mission but which didn't have the
military facilities to send the marines in the first place.
Besides, the company wanted Ripley along for the ride and since she
was on Earth, and rather than take military personel from an outpost
that perhaps couldn't spare them, the mission was sent from Earth.
I think we can assume that this world is not the only planet in this
system and that there may have been other more desirable planets
that were inhabited first.
   My impression is that FTL travel is not possible in the world of
'Alien', I felt that this 'realism' made the story more interesting.
Star Trek and Star Wars aside, I don't realy expect us to have FTL
capabilities for a long, long time.  If it's even possible at all.

>Mumblety-Peg -- Why has everyone assumed Bishop was programmed to
>follow Asimov's 3 Laws?  I am baffled why everyone has seemed to
>accept this as given.  First, he just gave a loose paraphrase of
>the "don't hurt humans" law.  Second, even if the androids were
>officially programmed to follow them, clearly the programming
>didn't always work -- witness Ash in Alien!  It's my opinion that
>any program sufficiently complex to simulate human thought will be
>quite difficult to have an arbitrary absolute "never hurt humans"
>rule slapped onto it.

   I agree with the comment about Asimov's Three Laws Of Robotics,
just because the android had somewhat simular programming does not
mean it was the Three Laws.  Particularly if this universe is just a
futuristic extension of our own, in which case the Three Laws are
just from a science fiction novel.
   As for Ash, he had a second set of orders that he was supposed to
preserve anything they found that could be utilized for weapons
research, this was at the expense of the entire crew.  These orders
Ash was carrying out but when he began to suffocate Ripley it does
seem as if he's having problems, perhaps he also had a 'no harm to
humans' directive in his main programming which his 'at expense of
crew' orders were interfering with.

>Weapons fired in nuclear converter -- Jeez, she's under a
>ridiculous amount of stress and clearly hyped up.  I think it would
>be much LESS realistic if in this scene (& others) the characters
>acted as calm and rational as you seem to think they should have.

   When the marines first enter the structure it is kind of stupid
to be firing all these weapons.  Since they've seen the damage to
the station, have Ripley's account of the Nostromo, and have rescued
the little girl you would think that they'd have some sort of an
idea of what they're up against.  Discovering that all the colonists
were in one area you'd think they would send some sort of drone in
to asses the situation, rather than march in with weapons they can't
use without damaging a critical component.  They can't even try
something like poison gas because they don't know if the colonists
are still alive.
   When Ripley starts shooting things up, however, the damage has
already been done and they're going to nuke the place anyway so what
difference did it make?  She was going to rescue Newt no matter
what!

>Dream sequence -- seemed quite good to me (& evidently other folks
>in the theater.)

   At first I thought she was beginning to remember all that had
happened after just waking up and was going into shock.  Then when
the alien popped out I thought to myself, 'Wait a minute!', and then
we realize it was just a dream.  I feel this sequence sets up the
fact that these dreams are a recuring nightmare to Ripley.

>     And the damn "Gobot" appearance of the power loader!  It was
>pretty ridiculous looking to me -- like one of those animated
>movies that's a long ad for Japanese robots.  Luckily the fight
>seemed well enough done that I

   I'm rather a fan of Robotech and I never connected the power
loader with a Transformer type robot.  I felt the power loader was
one of the most interesting future-tech 'throwaways' in the film (of
course we don't know how important the power loader will be until
the very end of the film).  There really doesn't seem to be any
technology in the power loader we couldn't utilize by the end of
this century (14 years, people!) with the exception of the onboard
power supply.

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 16:18:42 GMT
From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (intelligence of aliens)

There has been a lot of discussion about how intelligent the aliens
are, since some of the things they do appear to be too complex to be
covered by instinct.

One thing that has bothered me is that even if the aliens are
intelligent, where do they get the training to realize those
facilities. Without some sort of knowledge base to work from that
intelligence would not be visible. Like the baby raised by wolves
story.

One theory concerning the aliens is that they are actually
bio-warfare constructs that got loose. In that case knowledge might
be 'programmed in' so to speak.

I just thought of another hypothesis. Maybe the aliens are able to
absorb RNA from their hosts. That was an alien might incorporate
some of the knowledge and skills of their host, although it might
take some time to put this information into some usable order.

This approach would not necessarily be exclusive of the constuct
theory, since the ability to absorb and use host RNA, could have
been designed in also.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Aug 86 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #242
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 242

Today's Topics:

          Books - Kaye & Pournelle & Heart of the Comet &
                  Celtic Myths,
          Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) & Footfall

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 86 10:01:23 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: erotic sf

                Penetrators of Time, by Merlin Kaye
                (Hustler, 1980, ISBN 0-89963-183-5)

*** Mild Spoiler Material ***

To call this novel "erotic" is a euphemism; it's definitely Combat
Zone quality.  Moreover, it won't fall open at enticing well-thumbed
pages, either: to a first approximation, everybody does everything
with everyone else all the time, so there are steamy bits on every
page.  This is the stuff that Farmer was satirising in Blown.

The story is trivial.  A young man (Graham) driving home from work
meets a young extraterrestrial lady (Kee).  They go to her flying
saucer and ***.  Later, Graham takes a co-worker (Janice) to visit
the saucer, and they all ***.  Kee then reveals that her saucer can
travel also through time (hence the title), and asks the earthlings
to help her explore terran history, which they do, meeting
interesting people such as Cleopatra and the Minotaur, and ***ing
them.  As the cover blurb says

   Two young swingers travel back through time to savor the ages of
   lust

And, as one might expect, the book has silly characters, a
ridiculous plot, holes in continuity you could fly the USS
Enterprise through: altogether typical of the genre.

However, I rather liked the book.  For one thing, the author does
have a certain wit, and there are some striking bizarre images.  For
another, the book makes no pretence to be other that porn; there is
none of the autobiographical candour, serious purpose, stylistic
innovation, and redeeming social and literary merit that make, say,
Henry Miller such a crashing bore.

Although it was published in California, the book was found in a
wire rack outside a small grocery store on the island of Corfu.  If
you spend some time in lazy places far from our frenetic
civilization, be sure to take ENOUGH reading material, including
something really beefy like The Wealth of Nations or Der Untergang
des Abendlandes, or you too may be reduced to prowling the grocery
stores.  On that holiday, the thickest books I'd brought along were
the first two volumes of The Saga of the Pliocene Exile (you know,
the one with the silly characters, ridiculous plot, holes in
continuity &c, and a few steamy bits that rouse one to a pitch of
squirming embarassment).

The other half of the Hustler Double Novel is called The Savage
Princess, by Raymond E Banks.  A pleasant souvenir of lands gilded
with eternal Summer.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 14:44:11 GMT
From: rruxr!dawn@caip.rutgers.edu (D L Paschal)
Subject: Jerry Pournell's "Janissary" books

Has anyone heard if Jerry Pournelle will write another sequel to his
"Janissary" series?

Thanks,
Dave Phillips

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 86 15:51 CDT
From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: HEART of the COMET - A book review

I finished Heart Of the Comet by Gregory Benford and David Brin
several days ago.  Before my impressions fail me, I will relate
them:

                      BEWARE OF MILD SPOILERS

Earth people have landed on Comet Halley and are attempting to find
out any deep dark secrets it may carry.  There are several
characters in the story, with the main plot being concerned with 3
of those people and a very special AI "being" known as JonVon.  HotC
is intended to reflect the state of the earth's affairs today..petty
politics, desperation and extreme prejudice.  The prejudice isn't
racial, rather it is ideological in nature.  A couple of the
characters remind of Switzerland, that is they try to remain neutral
in all the squabbling.  The text is heavy with wordy ideas and
passages, there wasn't enough "REAL" SF to satisfy me.  The reader
is asked to accept a few outlandish ideas, and that's tough enough
in a book that I like.  The overall organization is good; chapters
are told from the viewpoint of a certain individual, but not in the
first person.  The book has the proper elements of action, sex and a
little SF but it doesn't quite gel properly.  Ratings: scale -4 to
+4 Heart of the Comet rates a -1.5.  That makes it one to read when
desperate for a late night sedative.....

Craig.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 08:34:11 EDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Celtic myths
From: Mary Ann <Foltman.Henr@Xerox.COM>

The juvenile books mentioned previously are Susan Cooper's The Dark
is Rising series. They include "Over Sea, Under Stone", "The Dark is
Rising", "Greenwitch", "The Grey King", and "Silver on the Tree".
Of these, "The Grey King", and "Silver on the Tree" deal directly
with Celtic and Gaelic myths and folklore. They are very good.

Also good is "The Magic Cup", by Andrew Greeley, although he takes
liberties with the characters and and events, it is still has a good
flavor to it.

Mary Ann <Foltman.henr@xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 86 11:37:48 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
To: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX <omen!caf@caip.rutgers.EDU>
Cc: Wahl.ES@xerox.COM
Subject: Re: death in Star Trek

>Star Trek has a real "problem" with death.  It is an acceptable way
>of disposing of some of Kirk's lovers, but anyone worth his weight
>in energy can be recreated in a transporter, as was done in one of
>the novels.

...or their "katra" can be found floating around, and we can grow a
new adult body on the Genesis planet, which by the way was made with
protomatter, so we can act like it's no longer a problem.  No need
to use the transporter to get our heroes (who have made the ultimate
sacrifice) back.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 86 10:07:48 -0400
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
To: Alastair Milne <milne@icse.uci.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek

>[about the explosion of the Enterprise in STIII]

By saying that the engines might not be available, I mean that they
might not be *physically* available - ejected or whatnot.  Perhaps
they should keep a bottle of antimatter on the bridge for
self-destruct purposes...  I don't see how the enemy is going to
stop a lot of small explosions, either.  Anyway, I don't think a
self-destruct mechanism is the most desirable thing.  But I'll let
the starship designers worry about that.  It's just an exploration
ship...

>I'm sorry, but compared to what was on M*A*S*H, I have never seen
>fine writing on Star Trek.  The closest I can recall is Harlan
>Ellison's episode "City on the Edge of Forever".  M*A*S*H was
>constantly dry, quick-witted, believable, with great impact: human,
>even sentimental, without being slow or drippy.  I can't recall a
>single episode of Star Trek which I could praise similarly.

Ok, you don't think Star Trek is very good.  There are *a lot* of
episodes of MASH.  If they were constantly so good, and ST never so
good, that's a pretty huge difference.

>>One factor is that the ideas in Star Trek were positive responses
>>to the problems of the 60's.

>But I'm not at all sure I agree.  Apart from a few theme shows
>("Let That be your Last Battlefield", "The Way to Eden" (right
>title?) ), I saw no particular social significance.  What problems
>of the 60's were considered in "the Menagerie", "Catspaw", "the
>Corbomite Manoeuvre", or "Conscience of the King", to name a few?
>[...]

I'm not talking about the "theme shows".  By "positive response" I
don't mean "direct response".  Star Trek is a positive, optimistic
series set in a future where morality is not inconsistent with
progress and technology.  The "Cage" part of "Menagerie" considers
the idea that "dying is better than living as slaves".  "Corbomite
Maneuver" addresses the confrontation between a huge alien power and
a mere Federation starship.  "Conscience of the King" has justice
for old crimes as its main theme.  While none of these episodes is a
*direct* response to problems of the 60's, they were certainly
relevant.  They are not irrelevant now, for that matter.  If the ST
producers of today are not willing to address anything that is
significant, Star Trek might continue to be good entertainment, but
won't be anything near what the original Star Trek is.

>>Don't be so sure that Allie's agent is at "fault".  [...]

>My understanding is that for STIII, Allie's agent grossly
>overestimated how much he could from the studio's for her -- much
>more than the regulars were getting, so much that the studio didn't
>even bother negotiating.  They simply turned down the request and
>went elsewhere.  If so, the agent blew it for her, for the studio,
>and for us.  It sounds not unlikely to me, but I have not seen it
>confirmed in print.

Your facts aren't out of line with what I have heard.  However, my
interpretation is different.  I assume that Allie's agent gave a
price for her that was somewhat consistent with what she wanted to
get for continuing to do Star Trek.  If her agent had "blown it", I
think we would have heard that from Allie.  That she did not want to
become another Sulu or Uhura and was willing to risk her career by
not doing STIII is commendable.  And from what I know, her career
has not suffered.

About Saavik being half-Romulan: I have seen a "product reel" for
Star Trek II which is the entire movie in miniture - perhaps six
minutes long, designed to show to the studio brass (not as a "coming
attraction").  It contains two scenes from ST II that were cut.  One
involves the "involvement" between David and Saavik ("learning by
doing").  The other is a scene where Spock explains to Kirk about
Saavik's volatile Romulan half.  Because this scene was cut, it
hasn't been stated in the movies that Saavik is half-Romulan.
However, consider that one of her first words of dialogue was
"Damn".  It's unfortunate that Saavik was not put to better use.

I asked about new scenes in ABC's showing of ST II a while back, but
no one seemed to think there was anything significant.  Anybody
remeber anything about Saavik being half-Romulan?

Frank Hollander
ARPA: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
CSNET: hollande%udel-dewey@csnet-relay
UUCP: ...!harvard!hollande@dewey.udel.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  6 Aug 1986 08:20:40-PDT
From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Invention origins and backward movement in time

As soon as one accepts the possibility of any kind of communication
(or movement of intelligence) backward in time, a number of, or
perhaps innumerable, potential paradoxes arise.

Heinlein, of course, has brought up several interesting ones.  In
particular, the problem of the origin of an invention sent backward
in time is treated in detail (though not answered) in The Door Into
Summer.  Asimov's The End of Eternity also touches on the issue,
though perhaps more superficially.  Neither affronts 'logic' beyond
the initial assumption that backward movement is possible in the
first place.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 14:18:00 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!taylor@caip.rutgers.edu (Jem Taylor)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>mikes@tekecs.UUCP (Michael Sellers) writes:
>>As a collateral question (and possibly too speculative for these
>>august groups :-), if you were the one capable of sending
>>something back, what (or who) would it be?
>
>A nuclear bomb.  Something that would, by "appearing" in that time,
>materialize in my grandfather.  A computer & manual, destined for
>T.A. Edison in Menlo Park, NJ.  The plans for "Opertion: Overlord"
>to die F^uhrer's office (excuse the attempt at an umlaut) in
>Berlin.  In general, anything that would cause an identifiable,
>unavoidable mistake in time.  Great way to verify whether we live
>in a "parallel" universe, or a "serial" one (cf. "Thrice Upon a
>Time," by (James P.?) Hogan).

But, but, but if we do live in a parallel universes (sic), then you
wouldn't notice any difference _in_this_parallel_ since this one is
the one where the transmission into the past, failed. If there was a
difference, it would be in a different parrallel universe, by
definition.

So
   1) Time travel BACKWARDS into THIS PARALLEL doesn't work

If the universe isn't parallels (sic again), no-one would notice the
change because it would always have been that way. Ursula Le Guin
wrote an excellent book - 'The Lathe of Heaven' ? - which treats
this problem, in the context of some-one who can dream reality
different. When he wakes up, everyone else has already forgotten the
'real' past, and remembered the 'new' past which is consistent with
the new present. Our hero almost goes crazy ...

So
   2) Time travel DOES WORK but NO-ONE EVER NOTICES ...

Jem
JANET: taylor@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
USENET:{ uk }!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!taylor

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 16:18:32 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

berman@vaxa.isi.edu writes:
>For example, take a small gold coin.  Send it 1 second into the
>future.  (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the
>matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance).  Now
>you have two coins.

If you're sending the coin into the future, the first one (the one
you sent) will "cease to exist"--for you, anyway--leaving one coin,
tho' it does leave gap in the coin's existence.

>A more explicit example would be to send the coin back to a point
>before it was minted, or before the gold was mined.  The gold in
>the other location would still be there.
>
>So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing pile of coins 16 times,
>you get 65,000+ gold coins.  Clearly this violates conservation of
>mass.

This doesn't, to my mind.  Say that there is conservation of
mass(/energy), not by gram or an energy equivalent, but a
conservation of mass _over_time_ --say, a unit called the
"gram-second", or whatever.  If I were to use a time-line, I could
show you: (At time t=20, the coin is sent back 15 seconds, to time
t=5.)

Coin +----+----+----0----+----1----+----
                         2----+----3----+----4----+----5--- etc.

Time (our time):    0    5   10   15   20   25   30   35   40   45
     (secs)

Assuming quantifiable time-units, the thing would only be duplicated
for a space of 15 seconds, then the first would "disappear".  The
error occurs when, "after" you've done this, and have two coins
(time t=5 or 10), you refuse to send back the first.  There are two
resolutions to this that I see:
  a) The first one gets sent, anyway.  The Will of G*d, or some such.
  b) There are two universes (parallel dimensions caused by the use
     of the machine) and somewhere, there's a scientist who looks a
     *lot* like you, wondering where that coin he sent, actually
     went. ;-)
OK, so you're saying:
  a) "Leave G*d out of this!"; and
  b) "But where did this other universe come from?"
Hey, you can't expect me to come up with ALL the answers! ;-)

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

From: alice!td@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Duff)
Subject: Tom Duff appears in Footfall
Date: 7 Aug 86 16:01:57 GMT

Indeed, I appear at the beginning of Footfall, disguised as an
employee of the Kitt Peak National Observatory.  I purchased an
appearance in the book at an auction for the benefit of the LASFS
building fund.  The winning bid was $40.  The scene in which I
appeared was later cut from the book during a rewrite, and a short
reference inserted.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Aug 86 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #243
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 243

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 19:12:38 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: LOTR

goldberg_4b@h-sc4.UUCP (Randy Goldberg) writes:
>I recall in one of his biographies, that JRRT once said that he
>wished his books (esp. SILMARILLION) to be like a bible, that other
>authors might come to for germs of stories, and expand upon them.
>I am truly sorry that we have treted Tolkien's work with an undue
>amount of reverence, for none has dared to touch them so.

Unfortunately, not so -- on TWO accounts.  First, not so: JRRT
originally had the idea of "writing a mythology for England," which,
apparently having forgotten the entire corpus of Arthurian myth, he
thought was lacking.  In this early attitude, he began the
composition of what he called "THE BOOK OF LOST TALES," the ms. of
which has recently seen print in two volumes.

As his ideas progressed, however, he became far more intent on
keeping creative control of his work (as, I think, it should be),
and a reading of the LETTERS of JRRT -- remaindered about a year
ago; you should have no trouble finding a copy quite cheap -- will
show you that he was quite hostile to persons who tried to glom onto
pieces of his creation and use them for their own purposes.  (One
person who came in for criticism was his good friend, C.S. Lewis --
for the high crime of (a) referring to Numinor in his book THAT
HIDEOUS STRENGTH, and (b) misspelling it.)

As for your other point -- "none has dared to touch them so" --
Again, alas!  not so.  Aside from the grosser rip-offs perpetrated
by such game designers as TSR (makers of Dungeons And Dragons, a
game that originally had much to recommend it but suffered greatly
from plagiarism -- both IN it and OF it), no less a literary
luminary than Marion Zimmer Bradley published some time ago a
chapbook called "The Jewel of Arwen."  This is included in the
recent collection of the "Best" of MZB -- a laughable title, for
while Marion has written much that is good, this book ain't it.

"The Jewel of Arwen" is a discussion of the stone given by Arwen
Evenstar to Aragorn, a lovely grace note to the history of the Third
Age -- and she screws it up utterly.  First of all, she makes
assumptions about the history of the T.A. that are utterly
unwarranted, the more so since they are unnecessary to the story,
and that have been "proven" wrong by the posthumous publications of
Tolkien's own version of that history.  Secondly, it isn't even very
much of a story -- rather more as if MZB had decided to write
another Appendix to tLotR.  And finally, it's internally illogical.

Then, of course, there are the massive reams of fanfiction which
have been published, usually by mimeograph, over the years.

And finally, there is Terry Brooks's contemptible thing (I suppose
it's a book, but I can't bring myself to call it one), THE SWORD OF
SHA-NA-NA -- oh, excuse me, I mean SHANNARA -- which is best summed
up by a review which appeared in the EAST BAY EXPRESS at the time of
its publication -- a review which consisted only of a plot summary
of TSoS -- or was it a plot summary of tLotR?  Actually, it was
both: the reviewer summarized tSoS, but after each character's name,
he inserted in (parentheses) the original name of the character, as
created by JRR Tolkien -- the plot was so closely, slavishly
followed, that a five hundred word plot summary matched, point for
point, character for character.

And THAT is why we have copyright laws that prevent you and I from
writing our own sequels to tLotR -- or, at least, from publishing
them without permission from the heirs and assigns of the writer.
Why these laws did not restrain Ms.  Bradley is a source of eternal
mystification to me.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 86 01:11:22 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #190

>I will mainly comment on the second. There are much older rings of
>power than Tolkiens - e g the Niebelungen ring, which appears in
>Wagner, but goes back to old Germanic stories. . . .

Certainly.  Rings have been used as symbols, as well as
ornamentation, for ages, and there must be many, many stories
concerning them.  Also of amulets, bracelets, and other decorations.
Observe a couple of the variations concerning rings of power,
though:

   - Lord of the Rings (Tolkien).  The Ring, made to dominate others,
     gives any wearer power according to his stature, but eats at
     his mind as it does so, eventually enslaving him.  He finds it
     almost impossible to give it up voluntarily.  As a side effect
     on mortal wearers, it turns them invisible, and stretches their
     lifespans.  Its creator never meant to lose it, and his no
     means of recovering it beyond constant surveillance.  Much of
     its creator's former power now resides in it, and he
     effectively stands or falls with it.

    - the Ring of the Nibelung (Wagner).  The Ring is also made to
      dominate, but, at least at the time of its making, it has no
      other power: it does not enslave, or consume the mind;
      however, to be able to forge it, the smith must first forswear
      all love.  It is not the power of its maker (who has virtually
      none) that infuses it, but power inherent in the gold -- the
      Rhinegold -- of which it's forged.  For invisibility (or
      indeed, for any kind of change of appearance), the Tarnhelm
      must be worn, and it has nothing to do with the ring.  Wotan
      steals the ring from the Nibelung who forged it, as the
      Nibelung stole the gold from the Rhine, and steals as well the
      Tarnhelm.  In his helpless rage, the Nibelung curses the Ring,
      stating in particular that those who don't have it will lust
      for it; that the one who does have it will know no peace; and
      that he will attract his destroyer to him -- "..The lord of
      the ring as the ring's slave" -- until it is restored to the
      Nibelung's hand.  "Thus in highest need does the Nibelung
      bless his ring." (errors in translation all mine).  The curse
      is almost immediately effective, as a giant kills his brother
      to have the ring, rather than all the rest of the Nibelung's
      treasure.  Much of the grief that ensues (though certainly not
      all of it) stems from this curse.  (I have never seen a
      satisfactory explanation of how the Nibelung, from whom the
      Ring had already been taken, retained sufficient power to
      cause the curse.)

      (To any afficionado of the Ring cycle, this is an appallingly
      abridged account, but if I were to list even half the story of
      Das Rheingold here (much less the other three operas, which
      are all larger), there'd be no room for the rest of the
      message).

Interesting similarities, but conspicuous differences.  I have no
idea how much familiarity Tolkien had with Wagner's Ring.  He could
hardly have escaped the craze for Wagner's operas that had swept
over Britain, but I have no way of knowing whether any elements of
Wagner's ring came over into his.

>I was always stricken by Tolkien,s choice of names he being such a
>great scholar in languages and history. . . .

Do you mean "struck?"  If so, then so was I, right from the first
time I read it.  It almost the first time I had encountered names in
fantasy that seemed solid and genuine, instead of obviously
contrived.

>It therefore seems to me that the Elves are in their essence the
>peoples that habitated Western Europe before 2000 BC, the men are
>the Indoeuropeans (with a Northern or Germanic and a Southern or
>Latin branch, called the Rohan (a noble French family) and Gondor
>(which even has a hint of India in it). On the other hand all evil
>seems to come out of Asia, with Mongol or Turkish names; Tolkien
>was certainly no admirer of Stalin or Attila the Hun.  The Rings
>may even be something else, namely the successive gains of human
>technology, such as the hunting skills, the agricultural ones, the
>handicrafts, eventually to be superseded by the One Ring, which I
>take to be the governmental use of technology for miliary purposes.
>It is natural to draw a parallel with the books of C S Lewis,
>including That Hideous Strength, where nuclear power and nuclear
>bombs "contaminate" an Oxford college.  Those Inklings where of
>that idealistic

You seem to me here to be ascribing to Tolkien something he
detested, and said so in print: allegory.  He mentions efforts by
other people to try to assign allegorical meanings to LotR, the most
obvious one being that it was a fantasy reflection of England during
the war.  He went to pains to demonstrate that it was not.  Now,
I've heard it suggested that, since an author's environment will be
a constant influence on him, not always recognised as such, he must
inevitably be writing "allegory", as his environment affects his
writing.  Personally, I find the suggestion rather contrived.  If
somebody wants to explore it, that is of course their own business;
but I don't think the author would have approved, and I don't want
to become involved.

So, whatever his own opinions of great French families, or of
mid-Asiatic tribes, we must look elsewhere than LotR to find them.
Besides, if you're suggesting that the Rohirrim were supposed to
reflect on the Rohan family, remember that they were described as
tall, mostly with long blond hair tied in braids.  If any modern
connection were to be drawn, it seems to me as if it should be more
Scandinavian than French.

As for associating the skill of forging Rings of Power with levels
of technology, it's an idea new to me, and I'm not aware of any
support for it.  Again, knowing Tolkien's aversion to allegory, I
must assume that LotR contains no such association, explicit or
implied.

Tolkien and Lewis were good friends, and Lewis gave considerable
criticism and reaction to Tolkien's work (I assume it was
reciprocated).  But they by no means had the same philosophies.
Lewis enjoyed allegory, and wrote it beautifully -- we are indebted
to that for the Chronicles of Narnia.  He did not create deep
cultures with many roots and many languages -- Tolkien did that.
Tolkien wanted simply to tell a story, without also asking it to
bear the weight of a more subtle "message".  Lewis wanted to make a
point.  So the fact that they were friends and coworkers should by
no means be taken to suggest that they wrote the same way.  They
didn't.

>It seems to me that the forging of a ring implies technological
>progress (whether astrological or military) but that its possession
>implies command rather than innovation of such powers. The use as
>well as the range of power involved in the forging will depend on
>the nature of the individual or people that partakes in thre
>process; the moral problems, however, remain quite unchanged.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you here.  Could you perhaps give
examples of what you mean?  What "power" involved in forging?  What
moral problems?

>El may mean star in Elvish, but in Hebrew it is certainly one of
>the lesser names of God himself. As to the nature of Gandalf etc
>one is reminded of the speculations of C S Lewis concerning angels
>and semi-gods. The Inklings, very well read both in classical and
>Nordic lore found it hard to believe that God had cheated those
>peoples permitting them to rever the classic gods, Jupiter, Wotan
>etc. They had to exist therefore, even to rule the planets named
>after them.  In the Biblical language they are angels, some of them
>benevolent others fallen or evil.

A possible entymology for "Eldar" and related words, but if you mean
to suggest that the Elves are the children of God, they are not:
they are the firstborn of Iluvatar, which is something else.

I have my own feelings about how the number of gods in which people
believe has been reduced through the centuries.  But again, I don't
think it has anything to do with Gandalf, the Maiar, the Valar, or
any other creature of Middle Earth.

>In old tales, some animals can speak. They convey messages and
>feelings, 'but have never to take moral stands, so they can not be
>regarded as people.  The Orcs, I take it, symbolize first of all
>the peoples of Central Asia, and as such are our enemies, but not
>necessarily evil.  They serve the evil masters simply because these
>masters are kings and despots of Asia, a continent where
>individualism and democracy (in the view of the inklings and their
>generation) has not yet taken root. Morally, therefore, they can be
>compared to the Classic peoples, before they met Christiantity -
>after Death they will go not to Hell but to Dante's purgatorio. The
>Nazguls, on the other hand, did have a choice and are therefore, in
>this world picture, hell-bound. Whether angels can die - I do not
>think so. They can be imprisoned though, and put through mental
>torture. As to the Balrogs, I feel they can be a kind of robots,
>electronically steered tanks...

I'm afraid I must continue to take exception.  Orcs don't symbolise
anything: they are simply Orcs.  Likewise Balrogs.  I have no idea
what Tolkien's political view are, but I am 100% certain they are
not to be found in LotR.

BTW, the plural of Nazgul is simply Nazgul.  And they were not
angels, they were the ghosts of powerful men, with their wills
conquered and replaced by Sauron's.

If you want to place angels in Middle Earth, you must look at the
Valar, which name, I believe, translates essentially as "angelic
powers".

>This discussion seems strange to me, as though the debaters thought
>there was a real series of events, . . .  In my mind, Tolkien
>creates, . . . partly to his ends, following partly an inner logic.

I assume that the creation of the story did follow some such
pattern, as Tolkien had accumulated a number of sources of
inspiration.  But as for treating it as a real series of events, it
has been pointed out before that Tolkien styled himself translator
of a formerly lost history, rather than the creator of Middle Earth.
I don't know how others may feel about it, but I'm happy to accept
that convention, and discuss Middle Earth from that point of view.
It works very well.  Though considering that I have never seen any
other work of fiction discussed this way, I understand why it may
seem strange to do so.

>The Elves, I Think, must partly be seen as grown-ups with all sorts
>of sorrows and misfortunes and faults that remain partly obscured
>to the hobbits, who are in comparison like naive children.  I like
>to think of the Elves as French or Italians, Jews or Armenians,
>with a long history of culture and suffering compared to the naive
>Hobbits, perhaps residents of some peaceful corner of Europe who
>escaped war for 180 years now.

Again: I think the Elves must be seen as Elves, not as surrogates
for some other people, or even as standard bearers for all peoples
with similar histories.  While I see a certain validity in the
images you use, they seem to me more a way of explaining the Elves
and Hobbits than the reverse.

>Ys I think was not a country but a city. In the Southern Baltic
>there are similar tales . . .  , new lands rise out of the sea
>instead.

Most interesting.  I had no idea of that.  I am aware that Venice,
for instance, is sinking at an unpleasant rate; that the fen country
in England is kept dry only by considerable labour; and that, ages
ago, Britain was a peninsula of Europe (now the "pen" is gone, and
it is a full "insula").  I hear that fishermen have brought up
ancient implements from the bottom of the North Sea.  But I hadn't
heard the more general story.

Ah well, that's continental drift for you.

Obviously, how any one person feels about and reacts to a story is
his/her own private affair.  If the reader feels privately that book
X is full of allegorical meaning, no matter what the author has said
about it, that is between reader and book.  However, I feel that in
any discussion of the matter, and especially in an essay, the views
and wishes of the author must be remembered.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Aug 86 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #244
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 244

Today's Topics:

                Books - Card & King & Celtic Myths,
                Television - SF TV (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) &
                        Possible Story Plot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 22:49:57 GMT
From: unirot!dtt@caip.rutgers.edu (David Temkin)
Subject: SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson Scott Card: Book Review

I just read _Speaker for the Dead_, Orson Scott Card's sequel to
_Ender's Game_. I was so taken with the first book that as soon as I
finished it, I began my search for the sequel. It's not out in
paperback yet, and I had to look through the SF shelves of about
eight bookstores before I found it. I expected to be disappointed by
_Speaker_, because (as we all know) everything gets worse,
especially in the arts. Fortunately, my expectations were dashed.
The book was great.

* Major spoilers ahead if you haven't read Ender's Game
* Minor spoilers ahead otherwise

Following Ender's destruction of the Bugger homeworld in _Ender's
Game_, he establishes a sort of "religion" centered around the idea
of speaking about a person following their death -- a speech which
is an honest portrayal of the deceased person's life, ambitions,
actions, motivations, etc. Caught up in this is the religion's
"bible", a book describing the Buggers' civilization. In fact, this
book was written by Ender himself, with the help of the bugger hive
queen (who still lives, although nobody knows it).

Speaker for the Dead opens on a new world where the men have
encountered yet another intelligent species (the third such species
following humans and buggers).  Contact between men and the newly
discovered species (called "piggies") is severely limited by law (a
Star Trek-style non-interference law, but more rigidly enforced).
Eventually, the piggies start killing men for mysterious reasons.
Ender is called to Speak the death of one of the dead men, and most
of the book concerns the unravelling of the mystery of the deaths,
in which Ender plays a central role.

The book stands out for a number of reasons.  First are its
believable characters -- they have human emotions, motivations, and
shortcomings.  Their reactions are much more believable than most sf
I'm familiar with.  Also, the characters' culture, for once, is not
based on that of WASP America.  The inhabitants are originally from
Portugal, and are strongly Catholic.  (This, of course, makes
Ender's task all the more difficult since he comes as the emissary
of a sort of humanist religion).  The book contains some Portuguese,
and it does indeed add to the book's authenticity (the names of the
characters are an example of this).

The technology the book introduces is, for the most part,
believable.  I have problems with the notion of the "ansible"
(originally seen, I think, in Le Guin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_
and _The Word for World is Forest_) which provides instant
communication across any amount of space.  It doesn't make sense in
light of Card's use of it in conjunction with relativistic time
dilation.  The use of computers is commendable, as it was in
_Ender's Game_, although his introduction of a spontaneosly
generated artificially intelligent being undermines the book's
credibility if you know anything about computers.  Net addicts will
appreciate Card's use of computer networks in both novels.

It seems that _Speaker_ is the middle book in a trilogy.  I can't
wait to read the next one -- the first two rank with David Brin's
_Startide Rising_ as my favorite sf novels of the past few years.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Aug 1986 02:12:50-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: CARRIE

From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
> ...The thought of dePalma directing TDM after what he did to
> CARRIE (which is actually a tolerable SF novel, unlike much of his
> later, more formulaic horror)...

Eh? CARRIE was the only one of King's novels that I consider poorly
written (nice idea, but weak execution). DePalma's film was
infinitely better.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 09:15 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Celtic myth books

Kenneth Flint has written some books in the Celtic milieu: Storm
Upon Ulster, Riders of the Sidhe, Champoin of the Sidhe, and others
I can't recall.  I haven't read them, but my wife liked Storm Upon
Ulster.

Also, an unusual combination of celtic myth and American Indian myth
is found in Charles deLint's Moonheart.  I enjoyed this book a lot.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 20:41:16 GMT
From: felix!billw@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
>Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from
>my childhood in the sixties.  I am not reviewing or recommending
>any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a
>child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff."

I'll bite.  Here are my comments and additions.

>LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson".
>This was one of my favorite shows when I was growing up, in the
>mid-sixties.

Mine, too.  Except now when I see it on re-reruns it seems
incredibly stupid.  Don't underestimate the (lack of :-) ) taste of
a 10-year-old.

>MY FAVORITE MARTIAN - who can ever forget Bill Bixby as the
>bumbling

This one stands the test of time much better.

>THE LAND OF THE GIANTS - a group of commuters on a 21st century
>shuttle get caught in some sort of warp and end up on a planet of
>giant humans

I didn't follow this one too closely.  Not a classic.

>THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff.

Ditto my comment on LOST IN SPACE.  But still fun to watch when it
comes around.

>VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of any
>of the stars,

You don't remember Richard Basehart?!!!!  One of the all time great
deep voices and currently the voice for the elder Michael Knight (I
never watch Knight Rider).  And don't forget David Heddison (forgive
my spelling on both names). They played the Admiral and the Captain
of the submarine 'Seaview'.  Ditto my LOST IN SPACE comment.

I'd also include:

STAR TREK - too obvious.

IT'S ABOUT TIME - a one season (or two?) bomb about two (?)
astronauts caught in a time warp and landing in the prehistoric
ages.  The only thing I really remember is one of the cavemen was
played by an actor from CAR 54 (ooh -- ooh) and somehow they were
rescued from the past and brought a caveman to the present.

BATMAN - At least *I* think its sort of SF.  With the BAT-mobile,
BAT-computer and all the other gadgets it seems to fit in with the
others.

MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. - Some of these shows are great, others are
right in there with the bad science of LOST IN SPACE.  Not really SF
all of the time, but certainly hi-tech for the sixties.  Most shows
seem to have had a mad scientist out to conquer the world.  "Open
channel D."

OUTER LIMITS - This may really be from the fifties, but *I* watched
it in the sixties.  Some of these shows are right on par with
TWILIGHT ZONE, others are just cheap monster shows.  But all seemed
to want to address real science (fiction) themes.  One of the greats
had David McCallum (from Man From UNCLE) as a man with an evolution
accelerator, who tried to become future-man in his own generation.

Enough for me, any others?

Regards, Bill Weinberger
FileNet Corporation
...! {decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !trwrb!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Aug 1986 03:12:58-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF-TV programs (errata)

From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Jessie Tharp)
> LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson".

Actually, some authorities claim that it was supposed to be based on
the SPACE FAMILY ROBINSON comic book (which later changed its title
to SPACE FAMILY ROBINSON LOST IN SPACE).  The resemblence is very
superficial, though.

> ...the handsome scientist father Robinson (played if I am not
> mistaken by the actor who portrayed Zorro in the TV series -- Guy
> Madison)...

Yes and no. You've got the actor pegged right, but his name was Guy
Williams.

> ...and the obligatory whiz kid Robinson (some nondescript child
> actor ).

Billy Mumy wasn't a household name, but he wasn't exactly
"non-descript", either. He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes
(one of which, "It's a GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with
Mumy making a cameo appearance). Mumy also has the distinction, if
memory serves, of being the first male to be kissed on-screen by
Bridget Bardot. :-)

> ...Of course  there was the  robot, Robbie...

Common mistake. Robbie was the robot in FORBIDDEN PLANET; the LOST
IN SPACE robot had no name.

> ...and a shaggy dog of some sort.

You're thinking of Debbie the Bloop, who was basicly a chimpanzee
with a fancy headdress.

> ...The first time I ever saw Michael J. Pollard was on "Lost in
> Space" in an episode that had Angela confronting, in a typically
> confusing sixties TV way, her emerging sexuality.

This was one of my favorite episodes from the show.

> VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of
> any of the stars...

Richard Basehart and David (nee Al) Hedison.

> THE VISITORS - this one was great! David Jansen getting chased all
> over America again (remember The Fugitive?) as a reporter who has
> discovered that aliens have invaded Earth and are replacing humans
> (sort of a 30 minute _Invasion_of_the_Body_Snatchers_).

The memory is slipping badly here. (1) It's THE INVADERS; (2) It was
Roy Thinnes playing David Vincent; (3) he was an architect, not a
reporter.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 19:19:13 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

From: caip!ihnp4!mmm!cipher (Andre Guirard)
>It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel
>can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because
>the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past,
>making time travel never to have been discovered.  Knowing how to
>travel in time is an unstable situation.

I believe this suggestion is due to Larry Niven.

Frank Adams
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 23:28:52 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

In this vein of discussion, I believe that a set of short stories by
Isaac Asimov are very appropos.  I refer, of course, to the
Thiotimoline stories.

The first two of these three stories are written as
pseudo-scientific papers.  Unfortunately, I only recall the title of
the first in the series, viz.:
   "The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline"

Any good Asimov collection and/or biography will tell you all three,
and the anecdote associated with the first -- When undergoing the
Orals on his doctorate in Biochemistry, Isaac had just had the story
published by John W.  Campbell (we've all heard of him, haven't
we?), only NOT under a pseudonym, as was promised.  The last
question asked in the Oral grilling was:
   "Mr. Asimov, please tell us something about the thermodynamics
    associated with Thiotimoline."
Of course, the good Doctor broke up (and obviously got the
Doctorate!).

                        *****SPOILERS******

Thiotimoline is a substance which actually dissolves BEFORE water is
added!  It can thus be used as a predicting device.  That is, set up
a relay such that, when water is added to the first, it releases
water into the one before it, about 1.3 seconds before you add the
water to the first!  A long enough chain of these would allow the
following to occur: You resolve that if a certain horse wins in the
races tomorrow, you will add water to the Thiotimoline relay.  If
so, the final member of the relay would dissolve TODAY, thus
ensuring that the horse WILL win tomorrow!  All kinds of fun things
happen if the last member does dissolve, and you then prevent the
first from doing so (This part I can't spoil -- I don't remember
enough of it).

In any case, this is certainly appropriate to the discussion at
hand, no?

goldberg_4b@h-sc4.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 15:09:14 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!jack@caip.rutgers.edu (Jack Campin)
Subject: germ of a story? (from 1836)

The following comes from "The Magazine of Popular Science and
Journal of the Useful Arts" (published by John W. Parker, West
Strand, London) Volume the First (1836) page 208:

Unaccountable Theft of Chemicals by Rats

About two years ago, in the warehouse of Mr. Johnson,
Chemical-manufacturer, in Hatton-Garden, 50 oz. of Oxide of Uranium
were put into as many half-ounce bottles, each bottle wrapped in
paper, and put into a drawer, in a counter. The premises having been
injured by an accidental fire, the floor of the room in which the
oxide was kept was taken up, about six weeks ago: between the
floor-boards and the ceiling of the room beneath, were found
deposited, twenty-eight of the above bottles, and two others. The
paper wrappers had been removed, and the outsides of the bottles
were dirty, but the corks were sound, except a few which had been
slightly nibbled, and the contents of the bottles were untouched.
The other two bottles, containing Tungstic Acid, were also found
corked, and untouched. The removal of these bottles had been
effected by rats. The counter was nearly destroyed by the fire, but
the workman who made it recollected that it had no back-casing, and
that the oxide-drawer did not go close up to the division which
separated it from the drawer above; so that a long aperture between
them was left; through this the rats had entered. They then must
have lifted the bottles, passed them through the aperture over the
back of the drawer, and dropped or lowered them down to the floor,
and afterwards dragged them to their deposit.
     But what was the inducement to commit the robbery? The oxide of
uranium is inodorous and tasteless, though of the latter quality
they could not be aware, as all the bottles were found tightly
corked, and the enclosed quantities were evidently the same as when
put into the drawer.
     A deficit in the oxide had been observed, but the amount had
never been exactly ascertained before the fire happened which drove
the thieves from their retreat, and was the means by which the owner
recovered the stolen property.

<end of article>

This raises a few more questions now that it did in 1836 - anybody
out there like to write a story to explain WHY??? (was one of those
bottles destined to be the one Becquerel used to discover
radioactivity? what REALLY happens to the MUF from Windscale?  ...)

(I found this magazine by chance in the discards bin outside an
Edinburgh second hand bookshop. It was pretty good, remarkably
similar to New Scientist in its coverage. I only got three issues: I
have no idea if it lasted or if it had any connection with the US
"Popular Science".)

Department of Computing Science
University of Glasgow
Glasgow G12 8QQ
Scotland
JANET:  jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk
or:     jack@glasgow.uucp
British Telecon: 041 339 8855 x 6045

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Aug 86 1018-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #245
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 245

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 86 22:51:09 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: alien evolution?

markl@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU writes:
> Also, if the facehuggers are really "analyzers", they must be able
> to analyze at a distance.  Otherwise, how do they know that
> Jonesie would not be a viable host?  And how do they know, without
> fastening on to them, that Ripley and Newt *are* viable hosts?

Jonesie never got a chance to be exposed to a facehugger.
Face-huggers hatch from eggs, and Jones was never around eggs.  Come
to think of it, that's why Jones wasn't infected.  He wasn't
recognized as a host by the warrior.

Anyway, the point is that, to an egg, anything within a certain
biological range is a potential host.  Jonesy might have been too
small to be considered a host.  However, if he was suitable, the
facehugger would have grabbed him, and inserted an embryo that would
have grown up to be a cat-sized warrior.

As far as how the aliens know something, that's a reasonable
question.  As other people have stated, the aliens have got some
alien sort of sensing technique.  call it organic sensors or
clairvoyance or whatever.  but aliens seem to KNOW things.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 09:13:12 PDT (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Aliens (Nightmare Sequence)

I object to the statement that the nightmare sequence was just a
cheap thrill.  One of the basic premises of the movie was that
Ripley was a haunted woman.  If we weren't given a taste of the
nightmares Ripley was experiencing, could we really have sympathized
with her desire to go back?  Would it have seemed at all reasonable
to expose herself again if we didn't know what she was going through
every night?  The nightmare sequence brought back all the horror of
the original movie to me, which allowed me to believe in Ripley's
strong motivations for the rest of the movie.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 86 15:54:43 EDT
From: stev@BU-CS.BU.EDU
Subject: more bughunt stuph

>The other argument against Bishop being a Company rat is the fact
>that in the scene in which Ripley tells him to destroy the
>face-huggers in the Med-lab after he was through with them, Bishop
>very openly tells her that Burke told him to pack them for
>transport back home. If he was attempting to sneak (or help sneak)
>the Bugs back home, why would he tell this to Ripley? That could
>sabotage his subterfuge. Even if he figured that he could insure
>that she didn't reach Earth alive, there would have been no
>advantage in telling her and all the advantage in *not* telling
>her.

The Marines already knew Bishop, they wanted him to do the knife
trick "again". So Bishop was not a Company rat, He was a Marine
construct, to help them.

From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
>If they had FTL, why did they use cold sleep?  Not to save mass, as
>you suggest, since normal physics of acceleration don't matter and
>17 days of O2 masses considerably less than a room full of sleep
>equipment.  You tell us, hutch.

And what about the food? And the waste they produce? And the
entertainment they will need? And the supplies like clothes and
such? More mass than a bunch of O2, isn't it? It would be much
easier to keep them out for long periods of time if you didnt have
to worry about them going space-happy on you. Just because it took
17 days this time doesnt mean they can get anywhere in a short time.

>Yawn.  Is this the joke about the universal solvent again?  And how
>about the specimen jars in the lab?  And you jibe me for being
>science ignorant.

The acid blood only appeared when the aliens were ruptured, the ones
in the tanks were unharmed. What about the one Bishop was taking
apart? We can assume he was careful to not spill anything out of the
body, or possibly the colonists had found a way to neutralize the
acid (remember, THEY had a full lab, and more time than the crew did
in the first movie.)

Most of the holes mentioned so far are very small nits, not worth
being picked. It is a reasonably tight movie, possibly not what you
wanted, but pretty good.

stev

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 15:33:13 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: alien evolution?

From: markl@borax.lcs.mit.edu
>Also, if the facehuggers are really "analyzers", they must be able
>to analyze at a distance.  Otherwise, how do they know that Jonesie
>would not be a viable host?  And how do they know, without
>fastening on to them, that Ripley and Newt *are* viable hosts?

It's obvious that Jonesie is unsuitable: he's too small.  As for
Ripley and Newt, there's always smell.  Bishop might have been
spared because he (it?) doesn't smell organic.  Perhaps anything
that smells okay and is of an appropriate size is a candidate for
implantation.  If it turns out the Alien can't adapt to the organism
it can always just kill that one, go away and try another.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 00:10:57 GMT
From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: ALIENS - nits and speculations (*SPOILERS*)

   Saw it last nite, read all the net-stuff (this must set a record
for net volume on one topic!) today. Some of what follows is new, I
promise.

   1) Wimpier aliens in the second movie: debateable. The original
alien is *never* hit with serious firepower in the first film.
Dallas took a flamethrower into the air ducts, but he bites the dust
offstage, and there's no hint whether he ever got to use it. That
alien's *fast*.  Parker also has a flamethrower, but hesitates too
long, waiting for a clear shot (Lambert's in the way). He clearly
never fires.
   The final fight between Ripley and the queen, being more hand-
to-hand, does make the queen look wimpier, but that's reasonable.
She's a queen, not a warrior, and even though she's bigger, it's not
unreasonable to believe she's also slower than the fighters, and
less combat-competent.
   2) Why isn't the ship in orbit as brainy as Bishop? Human
caution.  The more complex the intelligence, the more unpredictable.
It would be hard to make a machine with human intelligence
absolutely incapable of turning on its masters, and doubly so in the
case of a combat vessel, designed to be destructive. If an
artificial person like Ash malfunctions you may end up with an
unfortunate death or two, but it's only a day- to-day type tragedy,
not a threat to the race. Give a combat vessel that kind of
brainpower, though? *Very* dangerous. If it goes berserk, who's to
say it might not subvert a whole fleet of brainy battleships to join
it? Frankly, I'd rather fight the aliens; safer.
   Random notes: Scott Turner asked why the Company didn't have more
faith in Ripley, since they'd put her in charge of an expensive
cargo ship. Sorry, Scott - Ripley was third officer in a mere 7-man
crew.  A responsible job, maybe, but hardly "in charge". FTL:
clearly they had it. As someone else pointed out, the Nostromo is
stated to be 10 months from Earth while at Acheron, but Alpha
Centauri isn't even in scanning range. That means FTL of some sort,
no way around it. Exploding fusion reactor: unlikely on its face,
but who knows what the actual reactor design was like? Too far in
our future to guess. Maybe they used fusion to manufacture
antimatter (compact storage?), and the explosion resulted from loss
of containment of the antimatter. Anyway, it's all speculation.  We
just weren't told enough to judge if such an explosion was
reasonable.  Origin of the aliens: I'd guess they were designed, not
evolved. I have a hard time believing that any natural critter could
use life-forms from other planets, whose biology would be *totally*
foreign to them, as hosts.  It only makes sense to me if they were
designed with this intent in mind.  Argueable, I admit, but more
reasonable than the alternative.
   Overall consistency/logic rating: A-. I'll grant that some of the
nits being picked have merit, but gimme a break! The sci-fi movie
crap I cut my teeth on in the '50's and '60's couldn't measure up to
ALIENS in this regard if it stood on stilts, and blatant stupidity
in filmed sci-fi is still with us in epidemic proportions. ALIENS is
quality stuff, SF rather than sci-fi. If only we were always so
fortunate.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: Thu 7 Aug 86 22:59:38-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oooh, A Fight!  A Fight!  (And more _ALIENS_)

>Why does the commander always have to be an idiot?  Portraying the
>military as "dumb" has become de facto since Vietnam.  I'm tired of
>it.  It is an easy out for script writers that adds nothing to the
>movie.

The commander wasn't an idiot; he was just green. He acted like any
inexperienced person in a bewildering situation would act: he froze
up.

As to the rest of the marines being dumb, that certainly wasn't the
case. Sure they were too cocky, but they were marines, after all.

>Question: Would _Aliens_ have been a better movie if the commander
>and the marines had been top-notch, made no mistakes and still been
>nearly killed by the Aliens (led by a hideously intelligent Queen)?

This is getting silly. _Aliens_ is a [fb]movie,[fr] not real life.
It's a contrived narrative designed to be entertaining. If all the
characters had been completely rational, _Aliens_ would have been
the biggest snoozer of the year. It is fine to argue that if the
commander had done this or if Ripley had done that, things would
have turned out peachy, but they didn't, and the movie thereby
turned out to be worth watching.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@R20.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 22:36:38 GMT
From: ucdavis!cccsam@caip.rutgers.edu (Sam McCall - Hacker In
From: Residency)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (intelligence of aliens)

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes:

>There has been a lot of discussion about how intelligent the aliens
>are, since some of the things they do appear to be too complex to
>be covered by instinct.
>
>I just thought of another hypothesis. Maybe the aliens are able to
>absorb RNA from their hosts. That was an alien might incorporate
>some of the knowledge and skills of their host, although it might
>take some time to put this information into some usable order.
>
>This approach would not necessarily be exclusive of the constuct
>theory, since the ability to absorb and use host RNA, could have
>been designed in also.

An example of what we may consider to be 'intelligence' on the part
of the aliens, and one that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is shown
in the scene where Ripley finds herself facing the queen.  The
camera then shows an alien warrior blocking either entrance to the
room, and they begin to approach her.  Ripley then looses a burst of
flame (or bullets?)  in the room, and the warriors back off and
hide.  I believe that humans, when faced with a 'hostage' situation
similar to this, would respond in a similar manner.  The warriors
'realize' that if they attempt to get Ripley, she may torque her
cannons loose in the queen's face.

Then again, maybe not.

sam mccall
unix consultant
computer center
university of california, davis
...{lll-crg,ucbvax}!ucdavis!deneb!cccsam
...ucdavis!deneb!cccsam@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 17:51:38 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Artificial Persons in ALIENS

t820@sphinx.UUCP (tuow  ting) writes:
>Back to Aliens.  Question: If robots could be made as well Bishop,
>why didn't the marines send in a whole team of them to investigate
>the alien planet with humans acting as guides from a save distance?
>Wouldn't safety to human lives outweigh the cost of having to
>possibly replace to robots? (I know, I know, this is nitpicking
>too, but I loved the movie regardless)

I think the term Artificial Person might give a clue.  Perhaps these
creatures are LEGALLY artificial persons, which is to say that they
have the same rights and duties as persons.

Thus one would not be built into a cruiser - it violates the
machine's rights.  Squads of them would not be marines unless they
wanted to.  Chances are they cost so much to make that you couldn't
do this anyway.

This makes some sense in an interstellar culture which has had to
deal with the concept of non-human intelligence.  (There is some
somewhere - somebody built the original derilict in ALIEN.  We can
only speculate if humanity has met some others.)

Consider that nobody feels they have the right to order Bishop to
summon the ship - it is a volunteer mission.

Even Ash acted no differently from an unscrupulous company rep who
nonetheless had a free will and rights.  If there is a race battle
between artificial and real persons then he might have been glad (?)
to use the crew members as expendable tools.  Perhaps it is this
attitude which caused the passing of laws insisting APs have an
asimovian style robotics law.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 12:24:32 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Alien, original concept?

Don Chitwood has pointed out the similarity between ALIEN and van
Vogt's VOYAGE OF THE SPACE BEAGLE.  The similarity occurred to Mr.
van Vogt, too.  He was paid a kill fee ($75K, as I recall) by the
producers of ALIEN so that he wouldn't take them to court.
(Incidentally, the original short story, later incorporated into
VOTSB, was "Black Destroyer," published in Astounding with some neat
illos.  If you want, Don, I'll look up the issue, unless Jerry beats
me to it.)

BTW, ALIEN was not the first movie to use that plot.  The same idea
is the basis of the wretched 1958 picture IT! THE TERROR FROM BEYOND
SPACE, which sometimes appears on TV or as a late movie at cons.  If
you like turkeys, it falls into the category "so bad, it's funny."

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 23:41:19 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (*spoilers*)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>In any case, if I was Ripley, I'd scan everyone just on general
>principles.  And why didn't she nuke the original space ship???
>Perhaps because she thought the colonial government would move in
>and wipe them out, now that she's exposed the Company's coverup?

I keep seeing this complaint, "Why didn't Ripley scan everybody?"

What makes you think she didn't?  One would suppose she also went to
the toilet before bedding down in the refrigerated bunk, and they
didn't show THAT either...

Anyway, why should we assume that the ship has the equipment for a
scan?  Not to say that they don't but we never see it.

*I* think that the queen-bugger laid an egg on the shuttle ship and
it is just WAITING to reach out and TOUCH someone.

Yeah, so she tore off her egg sac.  No guarantee that she couldn't
have an auxiliary egg-laying system.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 86  10:45 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: aliens

looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) writes:
>All in all the movie was superb, but the ending in the  mother
>ship was weak.  The fight in the waldo-suit didn't make any sense
>to me.  If I escaped behind the bulkhead, I would come back with a
>grenade launcher, not a loader.

What happens if Ripley hits the queen with a grenade launcher on
board the mother ship? The queen explodes, sending super-acid all
over the the ship, creating innumerable holes in the hull which
would lose the ship's air long before they could be repaired. Ripley
wanted to stun (or kill) the queen with the loader without piercing
her chilitanous armor, then flush her out the airlock (which she
subsequently did.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 86 0927-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #246
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 246

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Bradley & Resnick,
                     Films - Lensman,
                     Television - SF TV (3 msgs) & 
                             Star Trek,
                     Miscellaneous - Time Travel & 
                             Black Holes (2 msgs) &
                             Sexy SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 09:35 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Biggle ... and Bradley

>    The World Menders    Novel
>
> Note the last title.  This is NOT the book by the same name by
> Marion Zimmer Bradley.

Sorry, but the book you are refering to is The Planet Savers by MZB.
Semantically the same, but not quite.  She has also written a book
called The World Wreckers.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 12:34:10 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Mike Resnick's _Santiago:_A_myth_of_the_far_future_

   I just finished this one, and would like to recommend it to those
out there who enjoy a decently crafted novel of no great social
importance.

   The plot is tightly wrapped, and there are many interesting
characters that manage to retain believability despite some very
unusual quirks. While the writing style is completely different, for
some reason a lot of the characters and general tone made me think
of Sam Delaney.

   This is another book about the bleak future of mankind. A bounty
hunter and a jornalist, along with assorted scum and a cyborg
spaceship go in search of the galaxy's greatest criminal. There are
lots of cold- eyed assassins straight out of your favorite cliche,
but gore and grossness are minimal.
   On a 0-10 this is a solid 6. Certainly it is a *LOT* better than
the works various "famous" writers in SF are putting out nowadays.
Read it.

Live free...
mjr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86  9:58:34 EDT
From: Ray Chen (MS W420) <chen@mitre-gateway.arpa>
Subject: Re:  Lensman

About the Lensman animated movie.  The animation was reasonable to
great depending on your tastes in Japanese animation.  What
interested me more was how they handled the story.  They destroyed
it.  The movie seemed to be loosely based on "The Galactic Patrol".
(Sounds of a story being hacked, slashed, and burned in the
distance.)  VERY loosely.

The Arisians were gone.  Most of the action takes place on one
planet.  If you were wondering how telepathy and the mind-work was
going be handled, the answer's simple.  It wasn't.  There's a flash
of telepathy now and then, I think but the Lens in the movie
basically isn't a telepathically-oriented device.  Instead we get
"The power of the Lens comes from love..." -- yuck.  Clarissa
McDougal was portrayed as your standard simpering damsel-in-distress
type heroine.  And her father(?) was the weirdest looking thing I've
ever seen.  Genetically speaking, I still can't figure out how
someone who looks like a short brown elf and we're talking 4'6" or
so with pointed ears no less, could possibly have a tall white
redhead for a daughter.

And to top it all off, the soundtrack is just dreadful.  Standard
heroic type music a lot of the time, but every time a climactic
moment appeared (hero fighting villian to the death or something),
they switch to elevator musak (tm).

Summary: This movie doesn't have much more in common with the
Lensman series besides the names.  I was on the verge of throwing up
more than once.  Lensman fans -- avoid this movie and wait for
someone to do it right.  You'll be sorry if you don't.

Ray Chen
chen@mitre-gateway.arpa
chen@gatech.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 20:04:57 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
> Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from
> my childhood in the sixties.  I am not reviewing or recommending
> any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a
> child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff."
>
> LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson".

Ah yes.  Yet another Irwin Allen production.  As I remember, CBS
wouldn't buy Star Trek because they already had an SF show.  Oh
well.  No one ever claimed any intelligence for network execs.
Anyway, the boy was Bill Mummy (I think he played in Bless the
Beasts and the Children, but that's the only other thing I remember
him in).  The robot was NOT Robbie, although he was designed by the
same person who designed Robbie the Robot (from Forbidden Planet,
and later in a lot of things.  Columbo, Ark II (or something like
that--a Saturday morning live action thing), a few cameos (in
Gremlins, I think)).  The robot's name was, originally enough,
Robot.  Robbie made a guest appearance in one of the episodes.

I liked it at the time (the reruns are almost as good as Batman for
laughs).

Gold Key used to have a "Space Family Robinson" comic.  It seemed to
have roughly the same cast, but a completely different spaceship.
Anybody remember for certain?

> MY FAVORITE MARTIAN

Yeah, another goodie.  Isaac Asimov wrote a nifty essay on this,
called "The Insidious Uncle Martin".

> THE LAND OF THE GIANTS

More Irwin Allen.  I didn't like this at all.  But it was post-Star
Trek, and my tastes had changed.

> THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff.

I think Irwin Allen's first.  Not nearly as bad as his later
efforts.  But I don't remember enough to be too critical.

> THE WILD, WILD WEST - well, maybe not really science fiction but
> they had a lot of neat gadgets.

Yeah.  I think the best show on your list.

As long as we're on the subject, you should have mentioned THE
AVENGERS.  A number of the episodes had a science fiction/fantasy
feel to them.

> VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of
> any of the stars, or any of the stories, but I know my sister
> watched this religiously.  US Navy nuclear submarine zapping
> around the world doing stuff underwater.

More Irwin Allen.  Again, I liked it at the time.  Bat Girl (Yvonne
Craig?)  played Captain Crane's girlfriend in at least one episode.
She also played on an episode of Star Trek, for what it's worth.

Umm.  The Seaview was an experimental Nuclear Sub (I don't think it
was owned outright by the US Navy, but they did seem to have a
suspicious number of weapons aboard for a civilian craft).  It was
designed by Admiral Nelson.  Don't remember much else about the
show, except that all of the giant humanoid monsters that they
managed to run into were the same size (about twice the length of
the Seaview).  just about what you would expect if they only had a
three foot model of the Seaview, and got men in rubber suits to play
the monsters.  And they had to crash into the ocean floor at least
once each episode.

> THE VISITORS - this one was great! David Jansen getting chased all
> over

Are you sure you don't mean THE INVADERS?

> THE LAND OF THE LOST - my personal favorite, a Saturday morning
> live- action kid's show. I watched it at first because Wesley Eure
> (an actor on the daytime soap opera The Days Of Our Lives) was the
> star. Then, in reruns, I forced my children to watch it every
> Saturday morning and now years later we still watch the reruns
> together.  A father, son, and daughter get trapped in a
> pre-historic parallel Earth, complete with dinosaurs, the missing
> link, and the remnants of a once great reptilian civilization.

This came out in the 70's, not the 60's.  But it was pretty good.
They were surprisingly consistent on this show--they came up with a
language for the missing-link type people, that was even
grammatically different from English.

You mentioned a couple of soap opera figures in your posting.  I'm
surprised you didn't mention the best soap opera ever to appear on
American TV-- DARK SHADOWS.  Horror, with occassional SF overtones.
The woman who played the witch, Angelique, showed up in a Night
Stalker episode, where there was a witch who was doing nasty things
to people.  Guess who the witch was?

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 21:24:47 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>ops@ncsc.ARPA writes:
>[Lost in Space robot]
>was designed by the same person who designed Robbie the Robot (from
>Forbidden Planet, and later in a lot of things. ...a few cameos (in
>Gremlins, i think)).  The robot's name was, originally enough,
>Robot.  Robbie made a guest appearance in one of the episodes.

That one was my favorite!  Listen to Robbie in Gremlins if you ever
have the misfortune of seeing it again.  He says someting like:
"Yes, I can duplicate the substance.  Will 5000 gallons be
sufficient?" etc.  [If you haven't seen FORBIDDEN PLANET, Robbie
says this to the cook.  Hey, anyone remember who played the cook?
How about the Doc?  I've forgotten,...]

>> THE WILD, WILD WEST
>I think the best show on your list.

My favorite, anyway.

>> VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA
>
>More Irwin Allen.  Again, I liked it at the time.  Bat Girl (Yvonne
>Craig?)  played Captain Crane's girlfriend in at least one episode.
>She also played on an episode of Star Trek, for what it's worth.

Funny you should say that!  I just saw Yvonne Craig in THE MAN FROM
U.N.C.L.E, another show on the list!  Now, THAT'S my favorite one!

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 11:34:36 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

I, too, loved Land of the Lost.  With David Gerrold as story editor,
frequent scripts by Larry Niven, and stop-motion dinosaurs by Gene
"The Terminator" Warren, how could you go wrong?  In my opinion,
LotL was the North American Dr. Who.  My favourite episode?  The one
by Walter "Chekov" Koenig in which Enik the Altrusian discovers that
the savage Sleestak are his descendants, not his ancestors.  Also
fondly remember Niven's script about the space shuttle pilot who
falls through a dimensional doorway that remains open, creating a
hurricane.  'Coure, the whole thing went down the crapper in the
second season.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 12:59 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: death in Star Trek
To: Frank Hollander <hollande@DEWEY.UDEL.EDU>
Cc: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX <omen!caf@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU>,

This is, by the way, another reason why I see a lot of philosophy in
ST -- I've read a lot of it in ST fanzines which can get much deeper
into the philosophical than the series or any of the pro novels.

(I think StarWings is out of print, but if anyone's intested,
message me, and I'll look into it.)

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 15:55:09 GMT
From: ihlpa!lew@caip.rutgers.edu (Lew Mammel, Jr.)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

>jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes:
>> Why would it be a contradiction?  Causal loops are certainly
>> strange, but they can be drawn on a Minkowski space-time diagram
>> easily enough.
>
> I can imagine something like a flat space with one temporal
> coordinate t and (for simplicity) a spatial coordinate x, in which
> two parallel slits are made at t=t0 and t=t1, t0 < t1, for x in
> (0,1) say, and then the early cut side of the later slit is pasted
> to the late cut side of the earlier slit:

Isn't this just cylindrical space-time which is locally flat
everywhere? I think it's just as viable as traditional flat
space-time. You don't have to worry about the "other" edges! The
imagined method of construction is arbitrary.

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 86 09:23 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Doomsday Effect and Black holes

> ...  Black holes *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by
>means of pair production and subsequent capture of one of the
>quanta....

This sounds very plausible.  In pair production, a gamma photon
"decays" into an electron and a positron that will move in opposite
directions, if a magnetic field is present.  One could then fall
into the black hole, and the other could fall out and conservation
of momentum and such would be fulfilled.  Kind of like what happened
to Broadhead in Gateway.

I have heard of another method for "evaporating" a black hole.  It
involves Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.  Under certain
circumstances, the matter of a black hole could find itself outside
of the Event Horizon, because of uncertainty.  I'm not real
up-to-date on this method, so don't flame me.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 21:31:22 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Doomsday Effect and Black holes

From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
>> ...  Black holes *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by
>>means of pair production and subsequent capture of one of the
>>quanta....
>
>This sounds very plausible.  In pair production, a gamma photon
>"decays" into an electron and a positron that will move in opposite
>directions, if a magnetic field is present.  One could then fall
>into the black hole, and the other could fall out and conservation
>of momentum and such would be fulfilled.  Kind of like what
>happened to Broadhead in Gateway.

Right, as I understand it.  BTW, what's this about Broadhead?  I
don't remember that!

>I have heard of another method for "evaporating" a black hole.  It
>involves Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.  Under certain
>circumstances, the matter of a black hole could find itself outside
>of the Event Horizon, because of uncertainty.  I'm not real
>up-to-date on this method, so don't flame me.

Yeah, it's called "tunneling"; it's been shown to happen to
electrons in a electro-magnetic well that they otherwise have
_no_right_ getting out of.

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 86 12:03:53 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Randy Goldberg <goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

> Have we all forgotten that master of Fantasy art-work, Boris
> Vallego?  It seems to me that a _HELL_ of a lot of his work was
> pretty risque, no?

No, I haven't forgotten him, but I haven't given up hope, either.

I won't argue his mastery of the skill, but I don't care for
mass-produced pictures of scantily clad women with a sword-bearing
pile of bronzed muscles standing over her to protect her from some
threat depicted in the background.  Too many people do this kind of
work (even on the sides of vans!): I often suspect that Vallego is
distinguished only in that he was one of the first, or that he has
churned out more than anyone else (doesn't he ever get tired of
redrawing the same picture?).  Although I couldn't do it, I consider
it more mechanics than art.  I'm not saying it's garbage: there is
definitely a popular type of adventure/fantasy book for which this
is good cover material; I just don't call anything art which
requires minimal skill and no originality.

To the subject at hand, though, I wouldn't call his work risque.
There is a definite minimum limit to the clothing, which I believe
would be (barely) acceptable even on american television, and the
scenes depicted are generally not sexy in nature unless you consider
the implied reward the hero will get later.  The extraordinary
proportions of the women (and men) only add a sense of fantasy to
the pictures; they (and their choice of clothing on a battlefield)
are too unreal to be erotic.

Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 86 0955-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #247
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 247

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 15:34:12 GMT
From: dartvax!tedi@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward M. Ives)
Subject: ALIENS sequel: my theory

Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel,
you never know; money talks.  In which case, here is my stupid
theory on the plot:

A.) The android took off near the end of ALIENS, only to return just
in the nick of time to pick up Ripley.  Most explanations on the net
seem rather contrived.  The android said "I had to give
such-and-such (the marine) a shot to knock him out."  Sure.

B.) Remember STII-TWOK?  REMEMBER Spock saying"REMEMBER" to Bones?
usually when there is something in a well-thought-out movie that
seems to have nothing to do with the plot, it is a red flag for the
sequel idea (examples anyone?)

C.)  The Android works for THE COMPANY.  He's governed by Ives' four
laws of Robotics (identical to Asimov's except there is a zeroth law
which takes precedent over all others: "A robot shall increase the
company's profit"

Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine
IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus.  That's why he's knocked out-so he
won't tell (or maybe so he wouldn't notice).  Note that his face w
wrappings seemed a little more heavy (possibly covering damage
caused when the android removed the face-hugger - don't forget, the
android spent a lot of time studying them.  Maybe he knows how to
neck-pinch them or something.

To paraphrase Watson and Crick somewhat:

"It has not escaped our attention that this analysis of the plot
structure implies a method of further reproduction for the ALIENS"

Ted Ives
{harvard,astrovax}!dartvax!tedi
tedi@dartvax.CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 13:08:42 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola)
Subject: Re: ALIENS (intelligence and training of aliens)

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes:
>One thing that has bothered me is that even if the aliens are
>intelligent, where do they get the training to realize those
>facilities?
>
>I just thought of another hypothesis. Maybe the aliens are able to
>absorb RNA from their hosts. That was an alien might incorporate
>some of the knowledge and skills of their host, although it might
>take some time to put this information into some usable order.

   You're assuming that all life is based on DNA/RNA.  I'd be leery
of making that assumption, especially since with all that acid
floating around in the aliens' bodies, it'd have to be awfully
sturdy RNA (do they make RNA molecules with hairy chests and
shoulders like gorillas?)  I still think the aliens are made out of
Teflon....

Pat Juola
Hopkins Maths
{seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 12:24:20 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

From:   voder!kevin     (Kevin Thompson)
>    My impression is that FTL travel is not possible in the world
> of 'Alien', I felt that this 'realism' made the story more
> interesting....

Considering that in the first film, Lambert clearly and specificly
states that they had 10 months to go (and other dialogue from just
after they wake up indicates that Earth was their destination), it's
safe to assume that they have FTL capability. Otherwise, the "planet
of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have to have been in our own
solar system.  It's a lot longer than 10 months to our nearest
stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 21:08:27 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Alien Sensory Apparatus and Communication

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>As far as how the aliens know something, that's a reasonable
>question.  As other people have stated, the aliens have got some
>alien sort of sensing technique.  call it organic sensors or
>clairvoyance or whatever.  but aliens seem to KNOW things.

The question of how the Aliens communicate has been gone over
several times and everyone keeps coming up with telepathy and ESP.

Dear friends, our closest analogues to the Aliens on Earth are Ants,
Termites, and Wasps.  Wasps often use the same reproductive tricks
that the Aliens use: laying eggs in or near a paralyzed host which
is then eaten alive by the larva.  Termites have the same
nest-building behaviour, as do many kinds of ants.  Some species of
termite and ant have caustic or acidic defensive weaponry.  All of
these insect species ARE KNOWN TO communicate (albeit
simplistically) by pheromones.  Pheromones, if you aren't familiar
with them, are aromatic molecules which can be detected by
smell-organs for up to several hundred miles.  Experiments with moth
sex pheromones have shown that the molecules released in a lab can
diffuse to over 30 miles away in less than 10 minutes.

There's no need for telepathy, if the buggies have properly keen
sense of smell.  AND the strong increase in pheromone levels given
off by an excited (or terrified) host creature could easily be the
thing that attracts face huggers.

My personal speculation on how the aliens LEARN things is that when
they eat the brains of their hosts, they manage to decode the
RNA-encoded information and assimilate it, eventually.  Truly horrid
thought: the Aliens have the "minds" and personalities of their
hosts, filtered through the overriding instinctual breed-and-feed
program of the alien mind.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 18:07:44 GMT
From: tekirl!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Re: Aliens (Nightmare Sequence)

Don't forget that a chief purpose served by the beginning
"nightmare" sequence was to forge a link with the original movie
without resorting to replays.  The scene did a marvelous job of
bringing forward the horror of her experience while giving us a
tantalizing but incomplete vision of "something's nasty here!"

Don Chitwood
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 21:55:38 GMT
From: davidc@umd5 (David Conrad)
Subject: Re: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>> From:        voder!kevin     (Kevin Thompson)
>>    My impression is that FTL travel is not possible in the world
>> of 'Alien', I felt that this 'realism' made the story more
>> interesting....
>
>Considering that in the first film, Lambert clearly and specificly
>states that they had 10 months to go (and other dialogue from just
>after they wake up indicates that Earth was their destination),
>it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability. Otherwise, the
>"planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have to have been in
>our own solar system.  It's a lot longer than 10 months to our
>nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed.

The ten months might have been subjective time, not objective
observer time (i.e. time dilation effects at near light speed). Just
thought I'd throw that in, not that I believe it.  In the book
'Alien', many references are made to traveling in hyperspace, but I
don't remember if they made it to the screen.

David Conrad
University of Maryland
Computer Science Center, Systems
PC TCP/IP Group
arpa: davidc@umd5.umd.edu
bitnet: conradd@umdd

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 22:30:56 GMT
From: davidc@umd5 (David Conrad)
Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory

tedi@dartvax.UUCP (Edward M. Ives) writes:
>Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel,
>you never know; money talks.

I remember reading somewhere (the rag Starlog, maybe) that after the
release of ALIEN, Sigourney Weaver said she wouldn't do a sequel
because sequels aren't as good as the original or somesuch.  Either
money does talk or she was impressed enough with the script for
ALIENS to do the sequel anyway.

>       C.)  The Android works for THE COMPANY.

I thought Bishop was a non-com member of the Space Marines

>Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine
>IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus.

I agree, it seems to be the most obvious hook for the sequel.  If
they don't use Hicks as the means to generate ALIEN'S UGLY SISTER or
something then they'd have to go back to the planet (maybe there
were other atmosphere converters and the company is still interested
in the planet as a colony?)

>Maybe he knows how to neck-pinch them or something.

Since Bishop is an 'artificial person', the face hugger would no
more attack him than it would a dishwasher.

David Conrad
University of Maryland
Computer Science Center, Systems
PC TCP/IP Group
arpa: davidc@umd5.umd.edu
bitnet: conradd@umdd

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 01:32:25 GMT
From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison)
Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory

davidc@umd5.umd.edu (David Conrad) writes:
>>      C.)  The Android works for THE COMPANY.
>
>I thought Bishop was a non-com member of the Space Marines

Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe The Company manufactures
androids as well as atmosphere converters?  Just because it may be a
member of the Colonial Marines doesn't mean they built it.

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 03:42:00 GMT
From: chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #229

From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
>hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) replies:
>>First question: landing on automatic under ideal conditions is
>>different from landing under nasty weather with ionization from
>>atmospheric muck.
>
>   The United States Navy is able to land an F-14 Tomcat on the
>flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night and at sea, by remote
>control.  We've had this ability for some years now.  These are not
>ideal conditions.  The objection that remote landing ability should
>be markedly better by the time "Aliens" takes place seems valid to
>me.

Whoa!!  Can you give a reference for that?  Admittedly, I don't
follow Naval aviation as close as I do Air Force aviation (and
neither as closely as I did a few years ago), but I don't remember
seeing mention of the success of any project of this sort.
Certainly research into such areas is ongoing, but I don't beleive
it's currently feasible.  If it were, we wouldn't be losing several
planes and pilots per cruise because of botched approaches.

I suppose you COULD consider the way carrier landings ARE done
(basicly, the pilot does EXACTLY what the LSO (landing signals
officer; they dude on the deck calling the shots) tells him, and
ignores whatever his own skills and instincts tell him) as a sort of
"remote control", but there is one crucial difference: the way
things are done now, the one option the pilot DOES have is to abort
the landing.

Brent Chapman
chapman@calder.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!calder!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 07:59:39 GMT
From: mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU (David C Mudie)
Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory

davidc@umd5.umd.edu (David Conrad) writes:
>tedi@dartvax.UUCP (Edward M. Ives) writes:
>>Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine
>>IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus.
>
>I agree, it seems to be the most obvious hook for the sequel.

If there's gonna be sequel, Hicks will be the vehicle, but I don't
think we should lay the blame on Bishop.  In "Alien", the
face-hugger stayed on Kane for quite a while ( hours? days? ) before
dropping off.  Bishop was alone with Hicks for about fifteen minutes
max, and that just doesn't seem like nearly enough time to find a
face-hugger, get Hicks impregnated, and then get the critter off
before picking up Ripley.

On the other hand, remember who was taking care of Hicks in the
Med-lab?  The Company scumbag whisked him off as soon as he was
brought in, and it was quite a while until we saw Hicks again --
with his new bandages.  Perhaps Hicks was impregnated then, and the
attack on Ripley and Newt was just Scumbag's attempt to avoid
putting all his eggs in one brisket... uh, basket.

David C Mudie
2416 Stuart
Berkeley CA 94705
mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU
...ucbvax!merlin!mudie

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 01:39:54 GMT
From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: Alien Sensory Apparatus and Communication

hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
>daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>>As far as how the aliens know something, that's a reasonable
>>question.  As other people have stated, the aliens have got some
>>alien sort of sensing technique.  call it organic sensors or
>>clairvoyance or whatever.  but aliens seem to KNOW things.
>
>The question of how the Aliens communicate has been gone over
>several times and everyone keeps coming up with telepathy and ESP.

   Why not ultrasonic sound?  The Aliens have no eyes, not only are
none visable but there was an article in I believe Starlog magazine
when 'Alien' originaly came out in which the designer of the
creature said that he felt the lack of visable eyes increased the
'alieness' of the creature.  So why not an extremely efficient
echo-location system such as whales use?
   Tests with dolphins have shown that not only is their
echo-location extremely sensitive but has the added advantage of
being able to get beneath the surface of most objects, particularly
living matter, sort of a living ultra-sound scan.  This would be an
added advantage in an alien determining the suitability of an animal
as a host.  The only drawback to ultrasonic sensing/communication is
limited range, a human can see a heck of a lot farther than his
voice could carry.  But if I recall correctly (and I'm not sure I
do), I believe that whale songs can be heard some ten miles from the
singer under ideal conditons.  Of course if the aliens live
exclusivly in nests long range may not be a necessity.
   The shape of the head of the alien is even simular to that of a
dolphin with the large, broad, rounded forhead.  When Ripley
discovers herself in the queen's nest and the two other aliens
appear in doorways the queen merely 'glances' in their direction and
they back off, communicating with ultrasonic sound seems more
realistic than telepathy.  But unless the creator of Alien ever
publishes a care and maintenance manual for the creature it's all
just speculation.

Kevin Thompson
{ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 86 1038-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #248
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 248

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Perry,
                  Films - Silent Running,
                  Television - Star Trek & SF TV &
                          The Flight of Dragons (8 msgs),
                          Time Travel & Nuclear Theory

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 05:51:46 GMT
From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: Re: The Matador Trilogy

BROCK%sc.intel.com@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes:
>In reference to Steve Perry's Matador trilogy, would anyone happen
>to know if Sumito is a product of the Author's imagination, or
>something borrowed from Real Life?

From the description that he gives it might be a long-time
derivative of the Chinese martial Art called Tai Chi, which is dance
like, improves balance, develops *chi*, and is an extremely powerful
martial art once it is mastered; however, on the average, it takes
some number of years to master although practice in other martial
arts usually makes it easier.  From my beginning efforts in it I
found that my fencing helped; but also each movement had to be
taught.

From looking at a number of Tai Chi books that only gave the
intermediate postions of several forms I can see how difficult it
would be to get from one to the other without instruction.  If I
were only given the ending foot postions on some of the advanced
forms I would think it completely impossible to get from step A to
step B.

Liralen Li
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 13:31:43 GMT
From: watmath!mwtilden@caip.rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

jay@ethos.UUCP (Jay Denebeim) writes:
>   Now, I'm not absolutely certain of this, but I seem to recall
>that the person who played R2D2 was also in Huey, Duey, or Louie.
>And, yeah, they did have more class than R2D2 did.

In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on
the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running.  The drones were
played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life walking
on their hands.  As a matter of interest, Duey was played by a
pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all.  Huey was
played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train accident
and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar affliction.

If you think of the walking mechanics of the drones as compared to
thier size, you can see that there is just no other way that they
could have done it.  No small-person could possibly have been able
to bend his legs like that.

As for class, they had it all.  I can't think of any sci-fi robot
ever that even came close to their charm.  I was only sorry the
movie was not popular enough to warrent plastic model kits of the
ship (VALLEY FORGE) and the drones.

Mark Tilden
M.F.C.F Design Lab.
Un. of Waterloo.
Canada, N2L-3G1
work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457, home: 888-7111
UUCP: ..!{utzoo,decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!mwtilden
ARPA: mwtilden%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
CSNET: mwtilden%watmath@waterloo.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 86 16:26:49 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Star Trek Series

ARGH! Those fools at Paramount! I quote from a UPI report...
Plans to beam a new Star Trek series to television screens next year
have been grounded, at least temporarily.  Fox Broadcasting Company,
busy with plans to launch a fourth network, was close to signing a
deal with Paramount Television to revive the popular science-fiction
series for a March debut. But Paramount, which owns the rights to
the show, backed out of the deal.  Ironically, what killed the idea
for a new series was the popularity of the original series....

Paramount was concerned that the new Star Trek, even without Captain
Kirk and Mr.  Spock, would hurt the box office for the Star Trek
movies as well as syndicated reruns of the TV show.  THOSE
INCOMPETENT FOOLS!  I would quite willingly watch all three!
Please, please, people, write to Paramount and let them know of your
outrage over their inconsiderateness to Trekkies everywhere.

st801179%brownvm.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 06:24:53 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: SF-TV programs

From:   sci!daver       (david rickel)
> Gold Key used to have a "Space Family Robinson" comic.  It seemed
> to have roughly the same cast, but a completely different
> spaceship.  Anybody remember for certain?

The comic had a family of just four (father, mother, brother, and
sister), aboard Earth Space Station 1. I don't recall just what
caused them to be lost in space, but they wandered here and gone. I
believe at some point they were given a teleport "drive" which
certainly facilitated their journey around space.  The only
resemblance between the tv show and the comic was the name of the
family and the basic situation of being lost.

>> THE TIME TUNNEL - two guys zapping through time doing stuff.
>
> I think Irwin Allen's first.  Not nearly as bad as his later
> efforts.  But I don't remember enough to be too critical.

No, it was Allen's third. VOYAGE (1964-1968) was first; SPACE
(1965-1968) was second; TUNNEL (1966) was third; GIANTS (1968-1969)
was fourth. THE TIME TUNNEL was the best of the four (I've noticed
that the less number of years a given show was on, the better it was
--- not surprising, I suppose).

From:   felix!billw     (Bill Weinberger)

>>VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of
>>any of the stars,
>
> You don't remember Richard Basehart?!!!!  One of the all time
> great deep voices and currently the voice for the elder Micheal
> Knight (I never watch Knight Rider).

Certainly not currently; Basehart died a year or two ago.

> OUTER LIMITS - This may really be from the fifties, but *I*
> watched it in the sixties....

No, it was 60's, 1963-1964 to be precise.

(n.b. For any nitpickers, all years given above are for television
seasons, not calendar years. So when I say 1963-1964, that means the
1963-1964 and 1964-1965 seasons.)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 11:54:18 GMT
From: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons

yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>I recently saw a fantasy film on network TV, titled "The Flight of
>Dragons".  TV Guide says that the film was based on a novel by
>Peter Dickinson (which is also the name of the main character), but
>the closing credits listed a story by Gordon Dickson, which I
>believe was called "The Dragon and St.  George".  I would tend to
>believe that TV Guide screwed up, but I was not watching the
>credits that closely, so perhaps I misread them.
>
>Does anyone know either the true basis for this movie, or anything
>about where the story by Gordon Dickson was published?

Missed the movie, so I don't know about the resemblance, but 'The
Dragon and St. George' was a short story of Gordy's that became the
currently in-print paperback 'The Dragon and the George'.

Bob Halloran, Consultant
UUCP: topaz!caip!unirot!halloran                DDD: (201)251-7514
CSNet/ARPA: unirot!halloran@caip.rutgers.edu    ATTmail: RHALLORAN
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 16:26:12 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons

The opening credits did, indeed, list Peter Dickinson as the writer
(I didn't stick around for the final credits).  As to whether this
was taken from "The Dragon and the George," I couldn't say (having,
much to my dismay, never read the story), but the movie seemed very
unDickinsonic (would you prefer, unDickinsonian? ;-) ).

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 12:02:36 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jonathan Meltzer)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons

"The Dragon and The George" by Gordon Dickson was published a few
years ago by Del Rey, and is (I believe) still in print.  Who is
Peter Dickinson?  Did Rankin-Bass add material from "The Dragon and
the George", or did Dickinson steal Dickson's plot, making a Dickson
credit necessary to prevent lawsuits?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Jon Meltzer
Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Cornell University

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 19:30:52 GMT
From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons (mild spoilers)

Dickson's novel was titled "The Dragon and the George", I seem to
remember it as being pretty funny.  I suspect that the makers of
TFoD borrowed liberally from (at least) both sources, and were
ethical enough (or legally compelled) to credit them. (bravo, btw) I
think the part about the paladin's problem WRT having a Dragon as a
fellow adventurer comes from Dickson, although in TD&tG it might
have been that the conflict was between the dragon and the soul
"inhabiting" it, haven't read TD&tG in awhile.  Apart from being
rather heavy-handed in the message department, I thought TFoD was
pretty good for TV fare.

Geoffrey Kimbrough
Director of Dangerous Activities
INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation,  Santa Monica California
ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 12:55:44 GMT
From: ihlpl!alle@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons

> I recently saw a fantasy film on network TV, titled "The Flight of
> Dragons".  TV Guide says that the film was based on a novel by
> Peter Dickinson (which is also the name of the main character),
> but the closing credits listed a story by Gordon Dickson, which I
> believe was called "The Dragon and St.  George".

I saw this also and was pleasantly surprised to see that it was a
decent adaptation of the Dickson's story "The Dragon and the
George".

I recently read this book due to it being on the list of funny sf
posted in this newsgroup.

Allen England ihnp4!ihlpl!alle

BTW, the hero's voice was by John Ritter, the wizard by Harry
Morgan.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 14:52:59 GMT
From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons

There is a book by Gordon Dickson, but I believe it is called _The
Dragon and the George_.  As I recall, it is either about a person
waking up in the body of a dragon or a story of the classic "knights
go chasing and killing dragons" type from the dragon's point of view
(e.g. the dragon relates how all of these "Georges" keep coming at
him full tilt with pointy sticks).  I suspect the "science" in the
film (i.e. how dragons breathe fire and fly) came from Gordon
Dickson's book, but the story of the quest for the crown, etc., was
not.  Of course, I may be wrong, as it has been a while since I read
the story.  But it is pretty good, and I would recommend it to all
fantasy types.

Daniel Soussan @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville IL.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 16:25:59 GMT
From: cbdkc1!blb@caip.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB )
Subject: Re: "The Dragon and St. George"

There are indeed two separate and distinct books here. Gordon
Dickson has the humorous fantasy "The Dragon and the George," as
others have mentioned.  Peter Dickinson wrote a coffee-table book
(tall, wide, nice pictures) called "The Flight of Dragons" which
examined how they might really have existed, and how their flight
mechanism (2HCl + Ca -> H2 + CaCl2) would have affected their
dietary habits, etc. I didn't see the TV bit so I can't comment on
how much it used one or the other sources.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 02:03:28 GMT
From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons (original book source)

   "The Flight Of Dragons" was a large, hard-cover book originaly
published in 1979 by Harper & Row Publishers Inc., written by Peter
Dickinson.
   This is not a fantasty story and bears practically no
relationship to the animated feature shown on TV.  Rather it is a
hypothesis on how dragons could have existed.  The author assumes
that dragons did indeed exist - if so, then how could such a large
creature fly?  Why was its blood poisonous?  Why did they hoard
gold, etc...?  He then gives his theories and explains them in
detail, such as dragons produce their own hydrogen which allows them
to fly and breath fire.  Also, dragons hoard not so much treasure as
gold.  Dragon blood, secretions and excrement are highly toxic, even
to the dragon if it's laying around in its own waste all the time.
But gold is just about impervious to everything, plus it's a
relatively soft metal, ideal for a bed as all the toxic wastes
simply seep through to the ground.  As for silver and jewels?
Well... where there's gold there's probably silver so it gets
scooped up as well.  Besides, it is kinda' pretty.
   I don't agree with all the suppositions in the book but if you
can find a copy it does contain a number of interesting hypothesis.
Incidently, the dragons in the animated movie have six limbs, four
legs and two wings.  I don't think there is such a thing as a
six-limbed vertebrate!  This means that these dragons either bear no
relation to any other mammel, reptile, amphibian, or fish on the
planet unless the wings are actually extensions of the rib cage
(which they don't appear to be).  The only really good
representation I've ever seen of a dragon is in Disney's
"Dragonslayer" where the front legs are the wings in an arrangement
like a bat.  The only way it could fly was by climbing something
high enough and then jumping off.

Kevin Thompson
{ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 08:01:15 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Invention origins and backward movement in time

From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
> As soon as one accepts the possibility of any kind of
> communication (or movement of intelligence) backward in time, a
> number of, or perhaps innumerable, potential paradoxes arise.
> Heinlein, of course, has brought up several interesting ones.  In
> particular, the problem of the origin of an invention sent
> backward in time is treated in detail (though not answered) in The
> Door Into Summer.

Then of course, there's that bit in HitchHiker's Guide to the
Galaxy, where a cereal company prints an excerpt from the
Encyclopaedia Galactica on the packaging of its product, sends one
packet back thru' time and then sues EG for breach of copyright.

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 08:38:30 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Prof. Schweinscheisse strikes again

I gotta theory: listen up, and I'll tell yah all about it:

Every time a specimen of those wondrous elements capable of causing
a nuclear fusion explosion is handled, a small amount of it is lost
- a small deposit left on the jaws of a waldo, a little left in the
bottom of a test tube, a bit to float off undetected as dust. Now,
most of these elements is pretty darned dense, and what happens to
discarded heavy elements? Ever heard of a mercury hunt? Well, my
doubtless attentive audience, the idea is that it accumulates in the
lowest regions of the area's sewers, and may therefore be reclaimed
(token sf reference: the delapidated Cambridge in "Timescape").  So
what's to stop this happening with our other, glow-in-the-dark heavy
elements? Absolutely nuthin'.

Can you guess the rest?

Give it a few years and what have here: one critical mass.

KAAAAAAABBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM !!!!!!

So, who's first? To my mind it ought to be a university town, or
maybe somewhere near an oldish defense establishment, anywhere where
radioactive material is handled regularly. How long? Who knows?

Makes yah think, dunnit?

Sleep well, my little chickadees

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 86 1118-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #249
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 249

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Recommendations & Baen,
                  Films - Silent Running (2 msgs) &
                          Movie Query,
                  Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & 
                          SF TV (4 msgs),
                  Miscellaneous - SF Erotica & Worldcon Party

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 21:37:02 GMT
From: ihuxl!gandalf@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Zelaznarii?

>It is apparent that among the followers of Roger Zelazny are Steve
>Brust (self-admitted in this group) and William Gibson (refs to
>Isle of the Dead in Neuromancer and more obscurely in Count Zero;
>inspiration from Coils). Now if those three wrote enough to keep me
>in fiction I would be very happy.  But they don't.  So my question:
>are there any more authors like these that I might have missed?
>
>I'm specifically not looking for cyberpunks (as might be guessed
>from the fact that Zelazny and Brust have written quite varied
>works almost all of which don't fall into that category).  I'm
>looking for writers whose writing fits in a particular range of
>styles that I know I like.

I haven't read much Gibson or Brust, but I have read (and enjoyed)
almost everything Zelazny has written, so I'll make a few
suggestions.  Recommendations like this are highly subjective, but I
feel that there is enough similarity in either the form and/or the
content of the works listed below that you will like them. Because
Zelazny's work covers such a wide range I've split up my
recommendations into sections relating to specific books.

For classic fantasy (with and without a technotwist (Mmm, very tasty
:-) like _Changling_ & _Madwand_ (with), the "Amber" books (?), and
the "Dilvish" books (w/o) try...

   The "Morgaine" books by C.J. Cherryh (with)
   _Gate of Ivrel_, _Well of Shuian_, _Fires of Azeroth_

   The "Riddlemaster" books by Patricia A. McKillip (w/o)
   _The Riddle-Master of Hed_, _Heir of Sea and Fire_,
   _Harpist in the Wind_

   _Godstalk_ by P.C. Hodgell (w/o)

   The "Black Company" books by Glen Cook (w/o)
   _The Black Company_, _Shadows Linger_, _The White Rose_

For darker, moodier fantasy along the lines of _Jack of Shadows_ and
_This Immortal_ try...

   _Nifft the Lean_ by Michael Shea

   The "Dying Earth" books by Jack Vance:
   _The Dying Earth_, _The Eyes of the Overworld_,
   _Rhialto the Marvellous_, _Cugel's Saga_

   _Black God's Shadow_ by C.L. Moore

   _The Soul Master_ by Graham Dunstan Martin

   Some of C.J. Cherryh's more unusual works might also hit
   the spot. Try _Sunfall_ or _Wave Without a Shore_.

For works like _Lord of Light_, _Creatures of Light and Darkness_,
and _Eye of Cat_ which are based heavily on (but not bound to) a
specific mythology try Julian May's "Saga of Pliocene Exile": _The
Many Colored Land_, _The Golden Torc_, _The Non-Born King_, and _The
Adversary_.

For a retelling of myths try _Asgard_ or _Krishna_ by Nigel Frith

For slam-bang action like _Damnation Alley_ or _Today We Choose
Faces_ try anything by Keith Laumer.

And, finally, for no particular reason (except that they're *good*)
try

   _The Anubis Gates_ by Tim Powers

   _Midnight at the Well of Souls_ by Jack L. Chalker
    There are four more books in this Pentology, but you should
    be able to tell whether or not your going to like them after
    the first one.

Ralph Schurman
...!ihnp4!ihuxl!gandalf

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 05:03:10 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen

So what else is new?  Jim Baen is the shlock editor of the season.
In some senses this is bad, since he publishes a lot of crap and
plays some slimey relabeling/repackaging tricks, but this is
certainly nothing new.

On the other hand, this presents a weak point where new authors may
be able to get something published and get started in the field.
ACE books held this distinction for a long time, but at least Baen
seems to treat his writers fairly.

So if you see something with his name on it, take the time to read a
little before you plunk down any money, and be prepared to ignore
plenty of typos.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 01:17:28 GMT
From: veale@neptune.cs.ucla.edu (Anthony Veale)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

(M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes:
>In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on
>the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running.  The drones were
>played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life
>walking on their hands.  As a matter of interest, Duey was played
>by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all.
>Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train
>accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar
>affliction.

I loved those drones!  But on the credits there were four names
listed as having played the drones.  I never could figure out why
unless there was a stunt drone.  (You know, for the scene where Dern
crashes into Huey.  Or was it Duey?) (It couldn't have been poor
Luey (SP?), since he had been blown off the ship during the ring
crossing before he even got named!)

Anthony Veale'
UCLA Center for Experimental Computer Science

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 03:53:54 GMT
From: chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes:
>In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on
>the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running.  The drones were
>played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life
>walking on their hands.  As a matter of interest, Duey was played
>by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all.
>Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train
>accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar
>affliction.

I remember seeing this documentary when I was about 6 or 8 years old
or so; I had nightmares for MONTHS after that about people getting
their legs cut off so they could get into those drone suits...  :-)

Brent Chapman
chapman@calder.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!calder!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 03:04:52 GMT
From: dan@rsch.wisc.edu (Daniel M. Frank)
Subject: Re: Was this movie ever released?

yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>A couple years ago, I remember seeing a trailer for an sf movie
>based on an interesting premise.  The main idea was that
>*something* had caused all of the people in a town (city, state,
>country, world???) to act on their impulses without any
>inhibitions.
>
>I believe the title of the movie was something like "Impulse".

   It's available on video cassette, and stars Meg Tilly and some
other people.  The title has the word "Impulse" in it, but it
escapes me at the moment.

Dan Frank

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 19:15:55 GMT
From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough)
Subject: Re: Star Trek new characters

Someone says:
>BTW, I didn't actually mean that ST should grab M*A*S*H's writers;
>merely that it could do with a large infusion of the writing skill
>that went into M*A*S*H.  I think you'll find that if and when that
>happens, more people than just devoted Star Trek fans will take a
>real interest in continuing the stories.  And that would be good
>for all of us.

Why on earth would any *good* writers do anything on/for
TV/Hollywood these days?  This is the age of The Director's Movie,
The Producer's Movie, The Choreographer's Movie, The Star's Movie,
The FX Movie, The Best Boy's Movie (8^).  N - epsilon) of the last N
films I've seen had almost everything *but* good writing--most of
them made money anyway. (I admit that my `N' is not huge, but I
don't think it was a skewed sample either.)

Geoffrey Kimbrough
Director of Dangerous Activities
INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation,  Santa Monica California
ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 17:38:54 GMT
From: watvlsi!peregier@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil Regier)
Subject: Re: Star Trek (long)

 This may be blasphemous but I always find it funny that people can
claim that a science FICTION movie is ruined by flaws in the
science, as opposed to holes in the plot.

If you watch Star Trek, you are watching it for entertainment and
the writers try to stick to conventional science unless this must be
sacrificed for entertainment value. A five year mission would be
pretty dull if one did not have faster than light travel :-). In one
episode the crew actually went back in time. Both these things go
against everything we know about science up to this point.  You
could say that maybe our theories are wrong and that it is possible
to go faster than the speed of light but then that excuse can be
used anytime a scientific principle is violated.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that with science fiction, you
just suspend your beliefs, accept the premises of the show or book
and then enjoy it.

Phil

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 01:25:17 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (ccdbryan)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
>Here are a few science fiction television programs I remember from
>my childhood in the sixties.  I am not reviewing or recommending
>any of these programs, just recalling them from the memory of a
>child who yearned to "go out there and do neat stuff."
>
>THE WILD, WILD WEST - well, maybe not really science fiction but
>they had a lot of neat gadgets.

  I would have to call about a third of the WWW episodes either sf
or at least fantasy.  I especially remember one of the episodes with
the short genius who was always getting away where he had found some
kind of midas device.  There were quite a few episodes with the
likes of giant tuning forks that destroyed homes, etc. that also
class in the category of sf.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 86 02:15:10 -0800
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@ICS.UCI.EDU>
To: Tharp <ops@ncsc.arpa>
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

Aargh.  I have this incomprehensible compulsion to correct some of
the mis-recollections in Tharp's note -- at least the ones I
spotted.

LOST IN SPACE - Guy Williams played Dr. Robinson, not Guy Madison.
The name of the non-descript child actor who played Will Robinson
has temporarily slipped my mind, but he had a cameo in the recent
Twilight Zone movie, and also (so I'm told) does strange songs in a
group called Barnes & Barnes that's featured regularly on the Dr.
Demento radio show.  The robot was not the famed Robbie, although a
Robbie look-alike did appear on one episode.

VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - another Irwin Allen production.
Irwin seems to think that computers all have highly volatile
explosive charges underneath the front panels.  I think VttBotS,
LiS, and LotG were all done by Irwin.

THE VISITORS - never heard of this one.  Isn't that supposed to be
The Invaders, starring Roy Thinnes?  The only other thing I remember
Thinnes doing is a 1969 Gerry Anderson movie about a counter-clock
Earth in an orbit diametrically opposed to our own.  That movie also
starred Herbert Lom (Inspector Dreyfuss of the Pink Panther movies).
There was a book by Clifford Simak called "The Visitors," but the
aliens in that one were cellulose-devouring floating black
monoliths.

Anyway, I only remember these shows from syndication in the
mid-to-late 70's.  A few zillion other SF-Lovers readers will
probably fill in the rest.

Yes, it's another Stab From the Past...

jns

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 06:59:00 GMT
From: uiucdcsp!hogge@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

>LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family Robinson".

A show I loved to hate.  Too bad Smith was such an annoying
limp-wrist.  As a child I could stand the campy, repetitive special
effects but just couldn't swallow (but did every week) Smith's
character.  But...do you remember the pilot show?  Smith was a
competent KGB, as I remember him, who appeared intelligent,
fearless, and practiced at espionage.  I guess his brain melted
during lift-off (was it?) when he was roasting outside of the
cryogenic chambers.

>THE LAND OF THE LOST

A very interesting show, capitalizing on the Gilligan's Island
formula of characters stranded in a hostile environment.  The
characters are stuck in a circular universe, which fact is
discovered partway into the series.  I never saw all the episodes,
and I don't know whether or not I saw the last one.  Did they ever
escape from the Land of the Lost?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 23:45:54 GMT
From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: re: SF-TV programs (It's a GOOD life)

> He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes (one of which, "It's a
> GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with Mumy making a cameo
> appearance).

Was this an adaptation of the short story about a child with mental
abilities who "relocates" his community as an infant? Subsequently
people have learned never to badmouth anything in their life style
for fear he will "correct" it for them.

I don't remember a TWEED COAT ZONE episode with that story line?  I
would like an attribution for that story if any one can toss it out.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 04:51:10 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: SF Erotica

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>In all this discussion of SF erotica, I'm surprised that no one has
>mentioned John Norman's "Gor" series.  Then again, maybe I'm not.

Oh well, why not...

I guess I'd have to claim that the GOR books aren't really very good
erotica.  Much of the sexual content has a rather pointed didactic
intent, to support Norman's ideal male/female relation theme.  As
such, after a certain point, it tends to collapse into mere symbolic
actions, lacking much direct impact.

This is not to say that Norman doesn't have his moments, especially
in some of the eariler books, and from time to time some fine humor
and a bit of social commentary, but it's kind of like little kids
trying to read through the whole dictionary to find the dirty words.

Sharon Green also has some strong moments, and could probably write
some very good pornography if she had a good editor and wasn't
selling so well.  If only she could make her characters interact a
little more realisticly and come up with some females that one could
respect/admire rather than wish to strangle.

By the way has anyone ever talked with these people?  Are they truly
depraved, or have they just learned that twanging some of the darker
cultural fantasy chords is an effective way to make a buck?  I'm not
sure you can, or would want to, really discuss these books here,
there's just too much polarizing and contra-feminist content to
permit rational discourse...

No, of course I won't admit to having read any of this stuff, or
that I might have found anything interesting therin, and yes, I do
wonder whether it might have usdesirable effects on young persons
who have yet to establish 'adult' social and sexual relationships.
But then your average romance novel is a pretty big pile of
misleading nonsense too...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 18:12:40 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: WorldCon Party?

I will be attending worldcon, and I'd like to hear about any
sf-lovers party that comes around.  The concom might be able to give
us hints about places to hold such a party -- I'll try and ask.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 86 0811-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #250
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 250

Today's Topics:

                  Books - DeLint & Wren (2 msgs),
                  Television - Star Trek & SF TV &
                          Twilight Zone & Lost in Space,
                  Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) &
                          SF Erotica (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 19:23:40 GMT
From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison)
Subject: Re: Celtic myth books

From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
>Also, an unusual combination of celtic myth and American Indian
>myth is found in Charles deLint's Moonheart.  I enjoyed this book a
>lot.

deLint has also written another book that seems to be somewhat based
on Celtic myth.  It is called "The Riddle of the Wren".  The above
somewhat is rather nebulous because I'm not sure how closely he
follows the myths - I only started it yesterday and it's been a
while since I read any Celtic mythology.  Huorn the Hunter and
Cernunnos appear in it.  It also has an interesting explanation of
standing stones and stone circles.

His only other book that I know of ("Mulengro") doesn't involve
Celtic myths.  It takes place in Canada, as does "Moonheart" and
involves gypsies.  I enjoyed it and I am looking forward to his next
book, whatever it is about.

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 17:49:22 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen

> ferguson@glasgow.glasgow.UUCP (Alex Ferguson)
>> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
> [ In which T. Wren ]
>>Talks about "antiphotons" as if these were current knowlege.
>>Gives them the magic property of causing a black hole to expell
>>it's mass.  Says Hawking knew all about this from the start.
>>Right.
>
> I haven't read this, and the other described glitches sound fairly
> atrocious, but this has a touch of verisimilitude. Black holes
> *may* expel their mass as Hawking Radiation, by means of
> spontaneous pair-production and subsequent capture of one of the
> quanta.

Oops, I see I was a little unclear.  It was clear from the book that
Wren wasn't talking about Hawking radiation per se.  He was talking
about some magic method of altering the *rate* at which a black hole
radiates.  As far as I know, the flux of Hawking radiation from a
black hole depends only on the surface area of the event horizon and
the gravity gradient (strength of tides) at that point.  And
inventing "antiphotons" is more than a little strange, as photons
are distinguished as being the only particle with *no* antiparticle
(or, they are their *own* antiparticle, depending on how you look at
it).

Now granted, I may be a little off above.  For example, Hawking
radiation likely depends on esoteric properties of pair-production
along the event-horizon, and my thus be altered by the local
environment as well as the surface area of the EH.  Nevertheless,
the effect as explained in the book was *clearly* contrary to
current notions, and yet was claimed to be in accord with current
theory.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 23:24:09 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Getting matter from a black hole

bishop@usc-oberon.UUCP (Brian Bishop) writes:
>RE: the discussion about black holes expelling mass - I wrote a
>paper on the topic two years ago. As I recall, it was Hawking's
>idea, and I believe it has been verified, or at least fairly well
>accepted. It happens when two particles (matter and antimatter) are
>produced near the event horizon of a black hole; the antimatter
>gets sucked in (and goes poof!), and the matter escapes - a net
>generation of a particle (or energy) from the viewpoint of us
>observers. Needless to say, the pairs need to be produced in just
>the right configuration for this to happen, but you know
>uncertainty (or at least, I thought I did, now I'm not sure...)

This may be so, but there's a much easier way, again thanks to
Hawking.  When you combine quantum theory with relativity, you
discover that the event horizon "jumps" between quantum states.
Perfectly normal.  But some energy that was within the event horizon
may now find itself outside the event horizon because of the quantum
jump, and may thus escape.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon
PHONE: +1 216 974 9210
SYSOP: UNaXcess/ncoast

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1986 19:12 EDT
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>I'm really surprised to hear all this sentiment about the old ST
>>characters being the center of "ST."
>
>Don't be.  I would guess that the majority of people think of Star
>Trek as a collection of the most prominent character quirks of its
>personalities...

I don't believe that at all--Or maybe in the grand scheme of things,
the casual watchers of Trek feel this way.  As (what I feel is) an
honest-to-goodness trekkie, I feel there is a lot more to ST than
its original characters.  For sure, they did a good job, but I think
it was the theme(s) of the orignal series which strike the chord in
most of us.  Only the most shallow viewers of the series would think
of it as no more than the sum of its actors.

> But I regretted much more that such a monumental action was taken
> in the cause of such a minor film.  ST III was the slowest and
> least interesting of all three so far.  No particular theme, and
> no particular contribution; in fact, it seemed primarily to be
> diluting ST II's contributions.

You're kidding, right?  As far as I'm concerned, ST III was the
*best* of the three ST movies.  Granted, the majority of the
responses to the movie said it was too "heavy handed," but I found
the movie one of the most moving I have watched.  The theme in my
mind was obvious: A bond of friendship that is strong enough to
cause someone as devoted to duty as Kirk to forsake everything to
save his friend.  The movie itself revolved around this idea of
loyalty, not only between Kirk and Spock but between the other
members of the crew and Kirk, and vice versa.

>>I think that characters could come and go, as they did in MASH,
>>and only make the series stronger.
>
>Star Trek needs more similarities to M*A*S*H than that.  Mostly, it
>needs M*A*S*H's writers.  They proved that it is in fact physically
>possible for a Hollywood series to have fine writing.  Star Trek
>occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its
>writing: but that wasn't difficult.  Frequently it didn't.

The *last* thing ST needs is *any* similarity to M*A*S*H or *any*
M*A*S*H writers.  MASH started out as a reasonably good commedy and
then rapidly degenerated into a forum for Alan Alda's political
felgercarb (to the point where the *real* "Hawkeye Pierce", who
wrote the original M*A*S*H novel, completely and pubically
disassociated himself with the TV series and most of what it had to
say).  Star Trek had its problems, but I would still claim that it
is the best series of its kind ever televised.

>My feeling at this point is that ST has run its course.  It's
>possible to run a good thing right into the ground, and I can see
>that coming for ST.  Unless they can do something significant with
>a new series, I wouldn't even bother trying.

I think doing something significant is the whole point.  I don't
think too many producers set out to produce a mediocre series.  I,
as a life-long Star Trek fan, am awaiting the new ST with
anticipation and a few reservations.  To pass judgement at this
point as to whether ST has run its course is premature.

Andy Robinson
University of Maine

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 00:04:30 GMT
From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

> "Yes, I can duplicate the substance.  Will 5000 gallons be
> sufficient?" etc.  [If you haven't seen FORBIDDEN PLANET, Robbie
> says this to the cook.  Hey, anyone remember who played the cook?
> How about the Doc?  I've forgotten,...]

Oh! You ment played.  Well, I don't know his name but he becomes the
white sidekick on Police Woman later in his career.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 14:57:53 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (It's a GOOD life)

tainter@ihlpg.UUCP writes:
>> He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes (one of which, "It's a
>> GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with Mumy making a cameo
>> appearance).
>
>Was this an adaptation of the short story about a child with mental
>abilities who "relocates" his community as an infant? Subsequently
>people have learned never to badmouth anything in their life style
>for fear he will "correct" it for them.  I don't remember a TWEED
>COAT ZONE episode with that story line?  I would like an
>attribution for that story if any one can toss it out.

The original story was "It's a _Good_ Life" by Jerome Bixby.  In it,
our (hero? villain?) .. the kid was more than an infant when these
events occured.  How old?  I don't remember.

Not only WAS the a TZ episode based on it, the story was
"modernized" a bit and remade in the TZ movie (yes, I know it was
bad!).

Hope this helps! - Live Long and Prosper!

goldberg_4b@h-sc4.UUCP
USmail: Randy Goldberg
        157-58 17th Avenue
        Whitestone NY 11357-3252
(E-mail only good until 16 Aug 1986)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 86 03:16:36 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Lost in Space
To: ops@NCSC.ARPA

From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
>LOST IN SPACE - ... and the obligatory whiz kid Robinson (some
>non- discript child actor).

Billy Mummy.

> Of course there was the robot, Robbie, ...

  The robot was simply "the robot".  Robbie is a character from the
1956 movie _Forbidden Planet_ (he did make a guest appearance in one
episode of _Lost in Space_).

>The bad guy was a scientist who got trapped on the Robinson's
>flying saucer (really) while trying to sabotage it and caused it to
>change course and send the courageous Robinsons across the universe
>and into endless adventure.

  Doctor Zachary Smith.  I forget who played him.  He was not a
scientist, but a foreign enemy agent.  I think he was also a medical
doctor.
  I recall having seen a _Lost in Space_ episode guide out there on
the net somewhere.  Does anyone recall where it is?

Keith

[Moderator's Note: The episode guide is available here at Rutgers
via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP.  Those without FTP access cannot
get the guide.  The file is T:<SFL>LOST-IN-SPACE.GUIDE]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 19:47:11 GMT
From: mcvax!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens)
Subject: Re: An Ane Man Proposes An Inane Experiment

lambert@boring.uucp (I) wrote:
> Is there a theoretical lower bound to the energy required to
> transmit one bit?  If so, how much is it?

cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) responds (for which my
thanks):
> kT, where k is Boltzman's constant and T is the absolute
> temperature of the system.

Now, if we are willing to observe with an inaccuracy of DELTA(E) =
0.5kT, that is enough to catch the bit.  By Heisenberg, we have
DELTA(E)*DELTA(t) >= h/(2pi).  So this allows us to vary t *in any
direction* by an amount of (h/(2pi))/(0.5kT) without violating known
physical laws like conservation of energy.  Plugging in the values
for k and h, we get

     6.626E-34 Js        0.5
     ------------ * ------------- = 3.819E-12 s/T
     2*3.14159265   1.381E-23 J T

This means to backreceive information by as little as 1 second in
time we need an absolute temperature of less than 4E-12 degrees
Kelvin.  This kind of chills my hope of witnessing time travel
during my lifetime (but maybe if I can arrange to be really
deep-frozen before I expire) and it sure shows that when time travel
becomes feasible, it will *not* be the hottest thing since sliced
apples.  BTW, the appearance of frost on the De Lorean in BTTF
whenever it had will have jumped, if you get what I mean, which is
that it popped up in the past, is strongly corroborative evidence of
this cryotranstemporal law, really a variant of the uncertainty
principle.

(Isn't there a slight problem in that Boltzmann statistics don't
apply at such extreme temperatures?)

Lambert Meertens, CWI, Amsterdam; lambert@mcvax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 13:36:42 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time Travel

From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman)
> For example, take a small gold coin.  Send it 1 second into the
> future.  (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the
> matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance).  Now
> you have two coins.
>
> So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing pile of coins 16 times,
> you get 65,000+ gold coins.  Clearly this violates conservation of
> mass.

If you wait to read my novelette, "The Hephaestus Mission", in
ANALOG some day, you'll fully understand why the coin replication
trick can't work, and begin to appreciate that so-called time
paradoxes are mathematical/philosophical constructs along the lines
of the "Zeno Paradox": they sound confusing but are ignored by the
laws of the Universe.

I'd like your opinion of my theories, once the story is published.

arlan

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 16:02:38 GMT
From: mcvax!lambert@caip.rutgers.edu (Lambert Meertens)
Subject: Re: SF Erotica

I am sorry if this has been posted before; some articles did not
make it here.  Strange Bedfellows (edited by Thomas N. Scortia,
Pocket Books 671-77794-7, 1974, earlier published by Random House)
is a collection of short stories in whose plots sexuality is
pivotal.

Lambert Meertens, CWI, Amsterdam; lambert@mcvax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 19:27:49 GMT
From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison)
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
> Have we all forgotten that master of Fantasy art-work, Boris
> Vallego?  It seems to me that a _HELL_ of a lot of his work was
> pretty risque, no?

I haven't forgotten him, but I thought his name was Vallejo.

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 86 05:53:39 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Yet more *SEXY* SF

Some Summer Lands - Jane Gaskell (sp?)

   A very mixed book, but some pretty powerful coming-of-age stuff
   involving a young but wise, mostly human girl.  Actually part of
   a series beginning with 'The Serpent', which is recently back in
   print - conditionally recommended to those who might be
   interested.

Night of Power - Spider Robinson

   Some very itimate stuff involving female point of view from a
   male author, disquieting becuase you're trying figure out how
   much is real and how much is male fantasy.  Also suffers since
   Spider still hasn't found his own voice in Novel length -
   Heinlein in one ear, Sturgeon in the other.

Silestra Series - Janet Morris

   Also back in print, this series was originally crippled by some
   of the worst cover copy ever.  Actually quite quite a bit more
   interesting and varied than the original sex queen covers would
   have led one to believe.

Maia - oops...you know the Watership Down guy...

   Here's a problem - If you perhaps liked Watership Down, then be
   warned that this is something different - If you tossed back
   Watership Down after figuring out that it wasn't about some kind
   of water ship, but had something to do with animals, ditto.
   Anyway, I really enjoyed this, especially the contrasts between
   fantasy and mundane reality; and between human actions and
   absurdity.  Perhaps the fairy tale of the year.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 86 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #251
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 251

Today's Topics:

               Books - Biggle & Delany & Baen Books,
               Films - Star Trek IV & Howard the Duck,
               Television - The Visitors &
                       Land of the Lost (2 msgs) &
                       The Twilight Zone,
               Miscellaneous - SF Erotica & Style in SF &
                       Amateur Writer's List &
                       Space Exploration (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 19:29:50 GMT
From: cbdkc1!blb@caip.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB )
Subject: Re: Biggle ... and Bradley

Confusion over two similar names? I have in my collection a DAW
paperback of Lloyd Biggle, Jr. "The World Menders", copyright 1971.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 17:32:29 GMT
From: pur-ee!pasm@caip.rutgers.edu (PASM Parallel Processing
From: Laboratory)
Subject: More on Delany

   I too was curious about why the second part of _Stars in My
Pocket Like Grains of Sand_ was taking so long to be published.
According to my usually reliable local independent bookstore, the
novel kept getting delayed and may have been cancelled at least
temporarily (my memory is unreliable here.)

   Got a copy of Seth McAvoy's book on Delany a month ago as a gift.
It's valuable for the scraps of interviews and biographical details,
such as Delany's dyslexia, relationship with Marilyn Hacker and
Bobby Folsom, and sexuality. McAvoy also tries to make some
intelligent remarks about Delany's books, but here he fails to add
anything new.  Like most critical studies of Delany's works, there's
an overemphasis on the early books and only superficial coverage of
the novels after Dhalgren.

   McAvoy's book is basically a fan's view of Delany's life and
works (so far.) It's kind of shallow but easy to read. (Slusser does
a much better job of analyzing the early books, but uses convoluted
critical lingo.)

Bill Hsu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1986 22:41:58 PDT
Subject: Baen Books vs. Bookstores
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

Both Change of Hobbit and Dangerous Visions, two SF specialty
bookstores in L.A. have stopped carrying any Baen Books. Nope, this
isn't because of Baen's habit of slipping in unannounced reprints.
It's due to a recent action of Baen's which hits bookstores
directly.

In the back of recent Baen Books, there is an ad for the "Baen Book
Club".  It offers to sell Baen books to readers, in quantities of 10
or more books, at a 50% discount, with Baen paying all postage.
There is no upper limit on the number of books, and an order can
include multiple copies of one book, or a unique set, as long as at
least 10 physical books are ordered.

This price is better than is offered to retailers, at least to the
smaller specialty stores (I don't know if it beats out the price
offered to chains, which may be lower).  Thus, both CoH and DV have
independently decided to stop carrying books which effectively
advertise competition with them for as long as the "book club"
exists.

Are any other stores also halting sales of Baen Books?  Is anyone
planning to actually use the book club? Any opinions on the whole
thing?

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 18:48:43 GMT
From: ncoast!bdw@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: ST IV: The Voyage Home

   The Enterprise crew warp home in their Romulan Bird of Prey; but
trouble awaits. They are placed on court martial for
insubordination, theft, and the destruction of Planet Genesis. But,
bigger problems have also developed during their absence. A fleet of
alien craft is surrounding the Earth -- destroying everything that
comes near them -- causing general widespread destruction and
famine. They keep making one request, over and over: they want to
speak to "The Guardians."
   Who are these "Guardians?"
   Whales.
   It seems the whales were placed on Earth a long time ago to keep
watch over the human race and our evolution; and make sure we did
the right things at the right times. Now, the beings that placed the
whales have returned, and they want a progress report. There's only
one problem.
   No more whales. All dead.
   So, Starfleet Command needs some crew (ahem) to go back in time
and fetch a whale. This crew must consist of a captain or admiral --
and a crew -- that has had previous experience with time travel.
   I wonder who.
   Kirk, Spock, the basic bridge crew, and a few others (redshirts?)
go back in time to 1989, where they have to get a whale, and bring
it back so it can tell the aliens that everything's just peachy
keen.

I have pieced that much together from various rumors; anybody know
more?

NAME:   Bill Wisner
UUCP:   ..!decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bdw

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 11:22:22 GMT
From: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Hamachi)
Subject: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie!

Howard the Duck is the most worthless movie I have seen in a long
time.  On an ABCDF scale, it gets an F-.  Do not see this movie.  It
is worse than boring.  It is bad.  Ridiculous.  Pointless.
Meaningless.  Rates at the bottom of the toilet along with other
losers such as "Commando", "Rambo", and "Goonies".  The newspaper
critics panned it.  They were too kind.

Never before have I ever known so quickly that a movie was going to
be such a bad experience.  First, the duck costume sucks.  It is
painfully obvious that there's a midget inside a duck suit.  Now I
know why they carefully kept Howard's appearance out of any
advertising--people would have stayed away in droves.  Simply,
Howard the duck looks unbelievably bad.  His movements are stiff,
awkward, and un-ducklike.  His facial expressions are plastic in the
worst sense.  Costume-wise, Howard the Duck is nowhere near the
quality of much older critters such as ET, or Yoda.  Try something
more like Sherry Lewis's "Lambchop", only not nearly so cute.  I
rate Howard the Duck on a par with the critters in the movie
"Critters".

The plot is worthless.  My 4-year-old nephew (who can't write yet)
could have done as good a job at coming up with a plot.  A bizarre
duck-like creature gets zapped to earth.  Weak slapstick comedy on a
par with the worst of Saturday Night Live skits as Howard is
examined by a "Scientist" who turns out to be a janitor.  A lame
explanation of how Howard got to Cleveland, like the worst Star
Trek reasoning.  A disgusting monster.  Cheap, gratuitous violence.
Trashy special effects, with glowing eyes and lightning bolts
spurting out of pointy, claw-like fingernails.  A long, loud, boring
chase with lots of crashes, like the worst of a whole season of
CHiPs reruns.  Trash.

This is too violent and disgusting to be a child's movie.  It is too
simple, violent, and disgusting to be an adult's movie.

I watched in horror as this poor excuse for a movie unfolded before
my eyes.  I would have walked out after the first 5 minutes, but I
could not believe it could possibly be as bad as it seemed.  You
think Aliens is scary?  Howard the Duck is more scary by far.  It is
downright frightening to see some of the trash that gets into in
movie theaters, and I am not talking about spilled cokes or empty
popcorn cartons.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 03:44:36 GMT
From: hull@glory.dec.com (Al Hull - resident at Ford Motor Credit
From: 313-845-2817)
Subject: Re: SF-TV

There have been numerous references to "The Visitors". I believe you
mean the series "V", which starred (I think) Mark Harmon (also in
The Beastmaster) and Jane Bader as the ravishing lizard lady. The
first season's episodes were quite good, but then seemed to
deteriorate like so many other shows.

Al Hull
Digital Equipment Corp
Detroit Field Application Center

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 07:42:03 GMT
From: mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU (David C Mudie)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

hogge@uiucdcsp.UUCP writes:
>>THE LAND OF THE LOST
>...  Did they ever escape from the Land of the Lost?

As I recall it, the last episode had the family escaping from the
Land ( I think they paddled back up the river they came in on ) just
a few moments BEFORE they first entered.  Shortly after their
departure, we see a familiar rubber raft come sliding down the
waterfall, and the people look around bewildered, just like in the
opening credits.  I think the paradox was explained away to the
"time storms" that kept cropping up.  So yes, our Saturday-morning
friends Marshall, Will, and Holly do return to civilization, but the
cycle continues...

This is the only show I know of which was able to justify its own
reruns...

David C Mudie
2416 Stuart
Berkeley CA 94705
mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU
...ucbvax!merlin!mudie

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 14:44:02 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

   Land of the lost was a very interesting show. The ideas presented
were thought provoking. They did leave the land, sort of. There was
one episode were Enik(sp?) could not return to his home through the
time doorway because it was frozen on the sequence of the Marshalls
entering the land. To solve this problem, the Marshalls HAD to
leave.  However a balance had to be maintained, so an equal number
of people had to enter. When they left, they also entered.(3 in 3
out). The show ran for quite a few years after that episode so I
don't know if you can actually say they left.
   Interestingly enough, this show had a limited run on NBC saturday
afternoons earlier this year. When the show was reviewed in the NY
Daily News, the writer referred to it as if it were a brand new show
stating that the show had outstanding special effects and such.
   Sorry if I went on too much here, but I grew up with that show
and I still would watch it now.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 18:20:55 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: re: SF-TV programs (It's a GOOD life)

There was such a TZ episode (air-date not available right now).
It's based on the Jerome Bixby story (if that's what you mean by an
attribution), which can be found in:
   Asimov's TOMORROW'S CHILDREN
   Crispin's BEST SF FOUR
   Janifer's MASTER'S CHOICE
   Pohl's STAR OF STARS
   Pohl's STAR SF #2
and undoubtedly Greenberg's new anthology of stories upon which TZ
episodes were based.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 03:46:55 GMT
From: hull@glory.dec.com (Al Hull)
Subject: re: Sexy SF

About ten years ago a paperback novel was published by Grove Press
called "Yolanda, the Girl from Erosphere". It wasn't much more than
a cheap SF facade for a porno novel. It had some funny sections, but
was rather mundane for the most part.

Grove Press is now publishing lots of "Victorian" novels of late,
all of them penned by "Anonymous".

------------------------------

Date: Mon 11 Aug 86 03:18:20-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Style in SF (was Blade Runner / DADOES)

ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>      In fact, I find that (in general) I like SF movies a lot
> better than I like SF books.  I generally find SF books to be bad
> writing based on fairly neat ideas, and that's all.  Even
> "classic" SF has this effect on me (all the Heinlein I've ever
> read, and McCaffrey's Pern books are good examples; _Neuromancer_
> is a notable exception).  Dick's style is better than most, but he
> had some writing habits that annoy me.

This is a rather interesting point. Film is definitely more a medium
of style; it forces the maker to give more attention to the way his
message is conveyed than does writing. Of course, this isn't to say
that film necessarily precludes content, or that writing avoids a
well-reasoned stylistic approach. But much science fiction _does_
focus on "neat ideas" to the detriment of style.

And that's a pity, for the conservative style of all too much
science fiction writing tends to numb the reader into an escapist
stupor.  Blandly written SF quickly becomes boring SF, no matter how
"neat" or innovative its ideas are. It's gotten to the point where
the magazine Analog, the bastion of conservative SF, is the best
cure for insomnia I've found.

The old "classics" of science fiction were, for the most part,
written in this narcotical style. However, the weight of their ideas
sufficed to carry them. Many more provacative ideas yet to be dealt
with by SF surely exist, but the means in which they are conveyed
must be as fresh as the ideas themselves, lest SF die a
dishonorable, stagnant death.

Much interesting writing has been done lately, and it should be
encouraged. Fortunately, as writers such as Bester and Delany did
in the past, we have Gibson, Kessel, Rucker, Shepard (when he's in
his Borges mode), Sterling, and Wolfe writing books which transcend
a plethora of "neat" ideas to be truely gripping and worthwhile
pieces of fiction.

Let's not lionize writers who churn out endless flights of fancy;
great SF nowadays entails much more than that. The classics of today
and tomorrow cannot be merely reprints of those of the past.

David Gadbois,
cgs.gadbois@R20.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 11:07:06 EDT (Mon)
From: Rick Genter <rgenter@labs-b.bbn.com>
Subject: Amateur Writer's list

   Whatever happened with the list of amateur writers, exchanging
stories for critique, etc.?

Rick Genter
(617) 497-3848
rgenter@labs-b.bbn.COM (Internet new)
rgenter@bbn-labs-b.ARPA (Internet old)
linus!rgenter%BBN-LABS-B.ARPA
BBN Laboratories Inc.
10 Moulton St.  6/512
Cambridge, MA 02238

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 86 04:14:05 GMT
From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf)
Subject: open letter in Lythande

The following open letter was found at the end of the book Lythonde
by Marion Zimmer Bradley, buried amongst the advertisements in the
back.

                           AN OPEN LETTER
                       TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE

   Astronauts Francis (Dick) Scobee, Michael Smith, Judy Resnik,
Ellison Onizuka, Ronald McNair, Gregory Jarvis, ans Christa
McAuliffe understood the risk, undertook the challenge, and in so
doing embodied the dreams of us all.
   Unlike so many of us, they did not take for granted the safety of
riding a torch of fire to the stars.
   For them the risk was real from the beginning.  But some are
already seizing upon their deaths as proof that America is unready
for the challenge of manned space flight.  This is the last thing
the seven would have wanted.
   Originally five orbiters were proposed; only four were built.
This tragic reduction of the fleet places an added burden on the
remaining three.
   But the production facilities still exist.  The assembly line can
be reactivated.  The experiments designed for the orbiter bay are
waiting.  We can recover a program which is one of our nation's
greatest resources and mankind's proudest achievements.
   Soon Congress will determine the immediate direction the space
program must take.  We must place at highest priority the
restoration and enhancement of the shuttle fleet and resumption of a
full launch schedule.
   For the seven.
   In keeping with the spirit of dedication to the future of space
exploration and with the deepest respect for their memory, we are
asking you to join us in urging the President and the Congress to
build a new shuttle orbiter to carry on the work of these seven
courageous men and women.
   As long as their dream lives on, the seven live on in the dream.

                     SUPPORT SPACE EXPLORATION!

                     Write to the President at
                     1600 Pennsylvania Avenue,
                      Washington, D.C. 20500.

comments?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 20:59:30 GMT
From: mazlack@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Lawrence J. Mazlack)
Subject: Re: open letter in Lythande

Great letter! I suggest that people circulate it.

Larry
mazlack@ernie.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 86 0920-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #252
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 252

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 86 22:11:57 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Tolkien's work as story sources

goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg) writes:

>I recall in one of his biographies, that JRRT once said that he
>wished his books (esp. SILMARILLION) to be like a bible, that other
>authors might come to for germs of stories, and expand upon them.
>I am truly sorry that we have treted Tolkien's work with an undue
>amount of reverence, for none has dared to touch them so.

That's not *our* fault; ask Dennis McKiernan what happened when he
wanted to do a story about the retaking of Moria after the fall of
the Balrog...  it appears that Chris Tolkien disagrees with his
father's ideas.

Brandon S. Allbery
WORK: Tridelta Industries, Inc.
      7350 Corporate Blvd.
      Mentor, Ohio 44060
PHONE: +1 216 974 9210
UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon
ARPA:  ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@csnet-relay
HOME: 6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105
      Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101
      (216) 781-6201 24 hrs.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 15:51:10 GMT
From: petrus!purtill@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill)
Subject: Re: LOTR

> JRRT originally had the idea of "writing a mythology for England,"
> which, apparently having forgotten the entire corpus of Arthurian
> myth, he thought was lacking.  In this early attitude, he began
> the composition of what he called "THE BOOK OF LOST TALES," the
> ms. of which has recently seen print in two volumes.  Dan'l
> Danehy-Oakes

The Arthurian myths are British (i.e., Celtic) not English (i.e.,
Anglo-Saxon) in origin.  Hence Tolkien's lack of interest in them.

mark purtill
(201) 829-5127
435 south st 2H-307
morristown nj 07960
Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com
Uucp: ihnp4!bellcore!purtill

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 86 04:13:20 GMT
From: leadsv!curtis@caip.rutgers.edu (John Curtis)
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

Concerning the recent speculation about the origins of Ungoliant,
Tom Bombadil, etc:

In the chapter "The White Rider", where Gandalf describes his fight
with the Balrog, he states that after they hit the bottom of the
abyss, he pursued the Balrog through very deep and dark passages. He
says something along the lines of:
  "Those tunnels were not made by Dwarves, Gimli son of Gloin. Far
beneath the nethermost tunnels of Moria the Earth is gnawed by
nameless things.  Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than
he."

   Older than one of the Ainur! Now perhaps Tolkien might have
written this chapter before he formalized his "Creation Story", but
I don't see this why the passage can't be taken at face value.
Either Illuvatar made some beings BEFORE he created the Ainur (just
for practice) ;-) ;-) OR there are some beings in Tolkien's cosmos
that were not created by Illuvatar.  (Hopefully none of them are as
nearly strong as he, as this would make the cosmos a rather unsafe
place.) If there are, then there would be an abundant supply of
"undefined" intelligences, some benevolent (Bombadil and the River
Daughter) and some not quite so nice. (Ungoliant) This would clear
the way to have all sorts of unclassifiable and fascinating enigmas
to help make Arda a more interesting place.

One additional bit:
   There is also a reference in _The_Hobbit_, when Bilbo was
wandering through the goblins' tunnels after being separated from
Thorin and Co, about the original owners of the tunnels, who were
there before the goblins, still "nosing around in odd corners and
slinking about".

(The Ainur, for those of you who haven't read _The_Sillmarillion_,
are the beings Illuvatar ("The One") made at the start of creation.
Some descended to Arda (Earth) and became the Valar and Maiar, whose
ranks included such high-powered people as Morgoth, Elbereth,
Sauron, and Gandalf.)

John B. Curtis
{decwrl,dual,ihnp4}!{amdcad!cae780,sun!sunncal}!leadsv!curtis

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 86 18:34:49 GMT
From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Building on Tolkien's stories

     I agree that followups to LOTR are probably useless.  Tolkien
said that he wrote part of a sequel to LOTR and got so disheartened
about what was happening in it (little boys in Minas Tirith playing
at being orcs, etc.) that he gave it up.

     However, _The Silmarillion_ has many, many good stories in it
that are not accessible to most readers because of the difficulties
of reading that style.  I would love to see some of them expanded
upon and presented in a modern style; there are vast possibilities
for expanding on some of the details that JRRT/CJRT left out in
_Silm_.

     As you may have guessed by now...  I have been occasionally
hacking away at something like this for a number of years: the story
of Maeglin (the traitor of Gondolin) from just before his birth to
just after his death.  Maeglin is a fascinating character who must
have gone through great emotional suffering due to the stupidity and
pride of people around him, and slowly turns into a very bitter and
evil character because of it -- at least that's one way of expanding
upon that story.

     The biggest problem with this is trying to get inside the
Elvish mind and understand what the Elvish attitude to life and
death is.  If anyone has seen any presentations of _Silm_ stories
which tackle this, I would be very interested in getting my hands on
them.

     So, summary: I think JRRT would have liked to have expanded on
many of the stories in _Silm_, but since he can't anymore, I think
we can and should do so, if we are careful about how we treat them.

Jamie.
...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 86 09:30 MST
From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Names in Tolkien; races of his world and of prehistoric
Subject: Europe

Comment on the entries from Eskil Block in Vol.  11, issue 219:
 I don't think you can equate the races of Middle-Earth to any
historical races.  Tolkien hated allegory "ever since I became old
and wary enough to detect its presence," and he made an important
distinction between what a reader chooses to read into a story and
what an author has chosen to put there.  The invading Indo-European
speakers, I always thought, were of a higher technological level
than their predecessors in the lands: the reverse, if anything, of
the situation in M-E, where the Elves welcomed the first Men and
taught them lovingly, raising them from their near-barbaric state.
What's to be gained, anyway, by such equations?

     About names: from Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, #297, pp. 380ff.
(notes in double brackets are explanations that I have inserted):
     "It must be emphasized that this process of invention [of
languages] was/is a private enterprise undertaken to give pleasure
to myself by giving expression to my personal linguistic 'aesthetic'
or taste and its fluctuations.  It was largely antecedent to the
composing of legends and 'histories' in which these languages could
be 'realized'; and the bulk of the nomenclature is constructed from
these pre-existing languages, and where the resulting names have
analysable meanings (as is usual) these are relevant solely to the
fiction with which they are integrated.  The 'source', if any
provided solely the sound-sequence (or suggestions for its stimulus)
and its purport *in the source* is totally irrelevant except in case
of Earendil; see below.
     "Investigators seem commonly to neglect this fundamental point,
although sufficient evidence of 'linguistic construction' is
provided in the book and in the appendices.  It should be obvious
that if it is possible to compose fragments of verse in Quenya and
Sindarin, those languages (*and* their relations one to another)
must have reached a fairly high degree of organization -- though of
course, far from completeness, either in vocabulary, or in idiom.
It is therefore idle to compare chance-similarities between names
made from 'Elvish tongues' and words in exterior 'real' languages,
especially if this is supposed to have any bearing on the meaning or
ideas in my story.
     "'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S.
laeg 'viridis' fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves,
foliage'. [[viridis is a Latin word with this meaning that JRRT has
given as the translation.]]
     "The name of [the] country [Rohan] obviously cannot be
separated from the Sindarin name of the Eorlingas: Rohirrim.  Rohan
is stated (III 391, 394) to be a later softened form of Rochand.  It
is derived from Elvish *rokko [[Final vowel long.  -- The * is
linguistic notation for an unrecorded form, reconstructed from
attested evidence.]] 'swift horse for riding' (Q.  rokko, S.  roch)
+ a suffix frequent in names of lands.
     "[In the matter of Moria vs.  the Biblical land of Moriah,
accent on the "i"] (in my view) you are led astray by a purely
fortuitous similarity, more obvious in spelling than speech, which
cannot be justified from the real intended significance of my story.
     "This leads to the matter of 'external' history: the actual way
in which I came to light on or choose certain sequences of sound to
use as names, *before* they were given a place inside the story.  I
think, as I said, this is unimportant: the labour involved in my
setting out what I know and remember of the process, or in the
guess-work of others, would be far greater than the worth of the
results.  The spoken forms would simply be mere audible forms, and
when transferred to the prepared linguistic situation in my story
would receive meaning and significance according to that situation,
and to the nature of the story told.  It would be entirely delusory
to refer to the sources of the sound-combinations to discover any
meanings overt or hidden.
     "Rohan is a famous name, from Brittany, borne by an ancient
proud and powerful family.  I was aware of this, and liked its
shape; but I had also (long before) invented the Elvish horse-word,
and saw how Rohan could be accommodated to the linguistic situation
as a late Sindarin name of the Mark (previously called Calenardhon
[[dh here is ASCII for the letter edh, like a curly crossed
lowercase d]] 'the (great) green region') after its occupation by
horsemen.  Nothing in the history of Brittany will throw any light
on the Eorlingas.
     "The most important name in [the area of deriving names from
'real'-language names] is Ea"rendil [[double-dot over the a marks it
as a separate syllable from the e]].  This name is in fact (as is
obvious) derived from A-S e'arendel [[first e with acute accent =
long vowel]].
     Aiya Ea"rendil Elenion Ancalima (II 329) 'hail Ea"rendil
brightest of Stars' is derived at long remove from E'ala E'arendel
engla beorhtast [[hail E'arendel brightest of angels]].  But the
name could not be adopted just like that: it had to be accommodated
to the Elvish linguistic situation, at the same time as a place for
this person was made in legend....  [long discussion of details of
inventing languages and legends]
     "I relate these things because I hope they may interest you,and
at the same time reveal how closely linked is linguistic invention
and legendary growth and construction.  And also possibly convince
you that looking around for more or less similar words or names is
not in fact very useful even as a source of sounds, and not at all
as an explanation of inner meanings and significances.  The
borrowing, when it occurs (not often) is simply of *sounds* that are
then integrated in a new construction; and only in one case
Ea"rendil will reference to its source cast any light on the legends
or their 'meaning' -- and even in this case the light is little."

     I hope this puts the kibosh on further wholesale attempts to
find meaningful external antecedents for names in Tolkien's story.
Somewhere there is also an explicit disavowal that "Gondor" has
anything to do with the ancient city of Gondar in Ethiopia, which I
think is the "hint of India" you mention.  I have, however,
discovered one connection myself: in The Tale of Tinu'viel (Book of
Lost Tales, Vol.  II), Tevildo Prince of Cats, who had all cats
subject to him, and who himself was a follower of Melko(r) (earlier
name of Morgoth).  I see in his name a clear indication of Tybalt,
king of cats, a character of folklore.  See Romeo & Juliet,
III.i,75:
 Mercutio: Tybalt, you rat-catcher, will you walk?
 Tybalt: What wouldst thou have with me?
 Mer: Good King of Cats, nothing but one of your nine lives.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 15:57:54 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Tolkien's personal views

>I'm afraid I must continue to take exception.  Orcs don't symbolise
>anything: they are simply Orcs.  Likewise Balrogs.  I have no idea
>what Tolkien's political view are, but I am 100% certain they are
>not to be found in LotR.

Maybe not in the detailed allegorical forms you address. But it's
hard not to see the shadow of the Third Reich in Sauron's evil, and
the work is pervaded with the conservative pastoralism common in
upper-class Englishmen who have no idea what it actually means to
work the land for a living (cf especially the industrialization of
the Shire as sponsored by Saruman); in fact there's a very English
sense of class-consciousness. I don't think Tolkien was trying to
make a point of it; he simply had a narrow view of the real world.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 23:55:38 GMT
From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's personal views

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes:
>>I have no idea what Tolkien's political view are, but I am 100%
>>certain they are not to be found in LotR.
>
>Maybe not in the detailed allegorical forms you address. But it's
>hard not to see the shadow of the Third Reich in Sauron's evil,

Well, Tolkien himself pointed out many times (e.g., in both the LotR
prefaces and in some of his letters[*]) that the whole framework of
Morgoth and Sauron was in mind long before any hint of the Third
Reich appeared in Europe.  In fact, he goes to great lengths to
disavow exactly this connection...

>I don't think Tolkien was trying to make a point of it; he simply
>had a narrow view of the real world.

On the other hand, I agree with you about this.

  [*] See "Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien"

Matt Landau
BBN Laboratories, Inc.
10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238
(617) 497-2429
mlandau@diamond.bbn.com
harvard!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 86 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #253
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 253

Today's Topics:

        Books - King & Pinnacle Books,
        Films - Rob Reiner (2 msgs) & SF on Video (2 msgs),
        Television - Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea &
                Tripods & The Visitors,
        Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) & Hawking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 15:49:52 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: CARRIE

>From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
>> ...The thought of dePalma directing TDM after what he did to
>> CARRIE (which is actually a tolerable SF novel, unlike much of his
>> later, more formulaic horror)...
>
>Eh? CARRIE was the only one of King's novels that I consider poorly
>written (nice idea, but weak execution). DePalma's film was
>infinitely better.

I'm not talking about the prose, but about the ideas. Most of King's
work contains ritualistic obeisances to traditional horror and to
the anti-young conservatism which is probably endemic in his home
area; CARRIE doesn't.  Furthermore, the book is a treatment of a
classic SF question (what happens to someone developing psionic
powers) while the movie goes for grossouts and blood-bucket counts.
The movie is more successful at what it tries to do, but it tries to
do so much less.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 18:27:52 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Pinnacle Books

Marty Moore (Mooremj@eglin-vax) writes:
>I've been waiting for someone to post these, but nobody has...am I
>the only one who's read them?
>
>   The Love Machine (These Lawless Worlds #1), Pinnacle, 1984
>   Scales of Justice (These Lawless Worlds #2), Pinnacle, 1984
>
>by "Jarrod Comstock".  These books are sexy, decently written, have
>appealing characters, quite funny (also punny), and generally a
>win.  #3 and #4 were supposed to come out back in *1984*, but I'm
>still waiting...and still wondering who "Comstock" really is.

I'm afraid you will be waiting a while... Pinnacle books went out of
business.  A shame really.  I enjoyed their V books which were much
better then the ill-fated TV series.

Stephen Pearl
Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 03:03:44 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Rob Reiner films King's 'The Body' and Goldman's THE PRINCESS
Subject: BRIDE

Scanning through the New York Times I noticed that Rob Reiner's
latest film STAND BY ME is based on Stephen King's novella 'The
Body', from King's DIFFERENT SEASONS collection.  I liked the story;
the Times panned the movie -- the reviewer thought it was vapid,
trite and boring and intimated that the world might have been better
off if King had taken shop instead of English in school.  Rob Reiner
is described as merely clumsy and obvious.  Oh well.  Has anyone
seen the movie?

Another column in the same edition of the Times has an interview
with Reiner...  It mentions that Reiner's next film will be THE
PRINCESS BRIDE, based on the William Goldman novel.  The columnist
doesn't mention the name of the scriptwriter (I sure hope it's
Goldman), but the cast is given as Peter Falk, Billy Crystal, Carol
Kane, Mandy Patinkin, Christopher Guest, Chris Sarandon, Wallace
Shawn and Peter Cook(!).  Maybe something good will come of it...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 16:08:20 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Rob Reiner films King's 'The Body' and Goldman's THE
Subject: PRINCESS BRIDE

donn@utah-cs.ARPA writes:
>Another column in the same edition of the Times has an interview
>with Reiner...  It mentions that Reiner's next film will be THE
>PRINCESS BRIDE, based on the William Goldman novel.  The columnist
>doesn't

That's *S. Morgenstern*.

>mention the name of the scriptwriter (I sure hope it's Goldman),
>but the cast is given as Peter Falk, Billy Crystal, Carol Kane,
>Mandy Patinkin, Christopher Guest, Chris Sarandon, Wallace Shawn
>and Peter Cook(!).  Maybe something good will come of it...

But, who plays who?  It could make all the difference!  Anyone know?

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue 12 Aug 86 10:20:00-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: SciFi Movies on Video

Being a longtime reader and a first-time respondent, I guess it is
up to me to provide some information on scifi video movies since I
also own a video store.  The following list is not complete (just
started it) but should be enough for a beginning.  The list combines
science fiction/ science fantasy/fantasy into a single category (so
save the flamers for another occasion).  No quality rating is
provided since all is in the 'eyes of the beholder' but some
commentary is provided. (* = personal favorite).

  Attack of the Killer Tomatoes  (camp classic)
* Alien
  Angry Red Planet, The  (avail. late August)
  Aftermath  (post N-Holocaust trash)
  After the Fall of New York  (Franco-Italian clone)
  Andromeda Strain

  Baby  (Disney dinosaur film)
* Boy and His Dog, A  (post N-Holocaust classic)
  Brother from Another Planet, The
  Blademaster  (conan-type clone)
  Brainstorm
* Bladerunner
* Battlestar Galactica (`movie' and TV episodes)
  Buck Rogers  (Gil Gerald TV episodes)
  Battle Beyond the Stars  (John-Boy and Sybil Danning)
* Buckaroo Banzai  (a greeting to fellow Blue Blaze Irregulars)
* Back to the Future  (Michael J. Fox and Lea Thompson)
  Barbarella  (Hanoi Jane's scifi sex kitten film)
  Beastmaster  (conan-clone with Tanya Roberts and Marc Singer("V"))
  Black Hole, The  (Disney)

  Cocoon
  Coma
  Clash of the Titans
  Cat People  (several versions)
  Clan of the Cave Bear  (Darryl Hannah/avail. late August)
  Close Encounters of the Third Kind - Special Ed.
* Conan the Barbarian
  Conan the Destroyer

  Deathrace 2000
* Dragonslayer
  Dune  (what could have been but wasn't)
  Dark Crystal, The  (Jim Henson production)
  Day of the Triffids
* Day the Earth Stood Still, The  (classic)
  Deathstalker  (Barbi Benton in a T&A conan-type clone)
  D.A.R.Y.L.
  Def-Con 4  (post N-Holocaust)
  Dungeonmaster

  Empire Strikes Back, The  (aka Star Wars V)
  Earth vs. the Flying Saucers  (avail. Sept.)
  Enemy Mine
  Escape from New York  (John Carpenter's w/Kurt Russell)
  Escape from the Bronx  (Franco-Italian w/no relation to the above)
  Electric Dreams
  Eliminators
  Explorers

  Firefox  (Clint Eastwood as a Russian? Hard to believe)
  Farenheit 451
  Flash Gordon (1980)
  Flash Gordon  (Buster Crabbe)
  Flesh Gordon  (humorous)
  Fantastic Voyage
  Forbidden Planet

  Gamma People, The  (avail Sept)
  Galaxina  (Dorothy Stratten - Playmate of the Year "stars")
* Ghostbusters
  Glen and Randa  (post N-Holocaust/avail Sept)
  Godzilla  (classic)
  Godzilla 1985  (definitely non-classic)

  Highlander  (not avail. yet)
  Hercules  (Lou Ferrigno and Sybil Danning)
  Hercules  (Steve Reeves)
  Hardware Wars and Other Farces
  Hearts and Armour  (Tanya Roberts "stars")

  Iceman
  Impulse
  Ice Pirates
  Invasion of the Body Snatchers  (both versions)

* Krull  (movie with slayers, Widow of the Web, etc.)

  Ladyhawke
* Last Starfighter, The
  Lifeforce  (fondly known as `Space Vampires')

  Megaforce
  Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared-Syn
  My Science Project
  Mad Max
  Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome
* Metropolis  (many edited versions available)

  Navy vs. the Night Monsters  (Mamie Van Doren w/Triffid clones)
  Night of the Comet
  Neverending Story, The

  One Million B.C.  (Raquel in a fur bikini)
  Outland  (Sean Connery in "High Moon")

  Philadelphia Experiment, The

  Quest for Fire

  Red Sonja
* Road Warrior, The  (aka Mad Max II)
* Return of the Jedi  (aka Star Wars VI)
  Runaway
  Starcrash  (Caroline Munro..."Come on, Stella!!")
  Saturn 3  (Kirk Douglas and Farrah Fawcett)
  Splash  (Darryl Hannah)
  SHE  (Sandahl Bergman/post N-Holocaust trash)
  Supergirl
  Superman I, II, III
  Stryker  (Road Warrior clone)
  Something Wicked This Way Comes
  Sword and the Sorcerer, The  (Lee Horsley "Matt Houston")
  Spacehunter: Adventures in the Forbidden Zone
  Space Raiders  (leftovers from Battle Beyond the Stars)
  Spaceship
  Star Crystal  (avail late Aug - looks like an `Alien'-type film)
  Scanners
* Star Wars  (the first, aka Star Wars IV: A New Hope)
* Star Trek TMP, II, III  (and TV episodes)
  Sorceress

  THX 1138
  Terminator
  Thing, The  (several versions)
  Time After Time
  Time Bandits
  Time Machine
  Terminal Man, The
  Teen Wolf  (Michael J. Fox)
  TRON  (Disney computer adventure)
  2001: A Space Odyssey
  2010

  Warriors of the Wasteland  (road warrior clone)
* Warriors of the Wind  (animated)
  Weird Science  (Kelly LeBrock)
  Wheels of Fire  (Lynda Weismeier - playboy centerfold in a road
                   warrior clone)

  XTRO

  Yor: Hunter from the Future

  Zone Troopers
  Zardoz

Stores that specialize in Indian or Filipino tapes will have on
occasion copies of `E.T.' but it should be noted that `E.T.' has not
been released (X'Mas 1986 ??) so these copies are bootlegs.

That's a partial list.  I will provide add-ons later.

A few others (not really scifi but so what):
  2069 - A Sex Odyssey  (R-rated German film)
  Lust in Space  (X-rated)
  Vixanna's Revenge (aka Whore of the Worlds, aka Lust in Space II
       / X-rated)
  Ultraflesh  (x-rated with Seka)

All for now.  Walter Chapman:  Chapman@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 20:51 PDT
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
Subject: Availability of WIZARDS
To: videotech@simtel20

Does anyone know if this animated film is on video tape...anyone
know of a location in the SF Bay Area?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 14:42:07 edt
From: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs
Cc: ops@ncsc.ARPA, gl02@te

ops@ncsc.ARPA writes:

>VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA - I can't remember the names of any
>of the stars, or any of the stories, but I know my sister watched
>this religiously.  US Navy nuclear submarine zapping around the
>world doing stuff underwater.

I watched this program in reruns a few years back when I was in High
School.  The two main actors were

Richard Basehart,  who played Admiral Nelson

and

David Hedison who played  Captain Lee Crane

I don't know when it first aired, but I do know that the first
season (and maybe more) was in black and white. Of course, the
earlier episodes were a lot better than the later ones. The name of
the submarine was the U.S.S. Seaview, of which Lee Crane was the
Captain. If I remember correctly the bridge set of the Seaview
changed when they switched to color .

aside: (Richard Basehart died last year. One memorable work of
Basehart is 'The Brothers Karamatzov' (sp?) , which also starred
Wlliam Shatner, I highly recommend this film about five Russian
brothers and their trials/tribulations. Shatner plays a Roman
Catholic brother.)

Chris Durham
ARPA: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: CD0V@CMUCCVMA
USENET: ...seismo!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v
MAILNET: cd0v%andrew.cmu.edu%te.cc.cmu.edu@Carnegie.Mailnet

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 18:28:15 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: tripods

Pete Olpe asks:

>Does anyone know if there are plans to make a third season of
>Tripods?  Or at least a final episode to tie together the loose
>ends?  Does anyone know who to write to?  Thanks.

I'm sorry to inform you and all other TRIPODS fans, but Michael
Grade (BBC Controller) has cancelled the 3rd season of Tripods.

This is the same Michael Grade that cancelled Blakes 7 after putting
it on hiatus and put Dr. Who on Hiatus.  (With a record low 3
stories! this season.)

Stephen Pearl
Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 13:50:44 GMT
From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan)
Subject: Re: SF-TV  (corrections to actors' names)

> There have been numerous references to "The Visitors". I believe
> you mean the series "V", which starred (I think) Mark Harmon (also
> in The Beastmaster) and

This was Marc Singer in both.  Mark Harmon is (was?) in St.
Elsewhere and does the Coors beer commercials.

> Jane Bader as the ravishing lizard lady. The first season's
> episodes were quite

Jane Badler.  Incidentally, Duncan Regehr (who was asked about from
the TV show "Wizards and Warriors" was also a lizard person in this
show.

> good, but then seemed to deteriorate like so many other shows.

So true.

Daniel Soussan @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:31:33 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>From: caip!ihnp4!mmm!cipher (Andre Guirard)
>>It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel
>>can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because
>>the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past,
>>making time travel never to have been discovered.  Knowing how to
>>travel in time is an unstable situation.
>
>I believe this suggestion is due to Larry Niven.

I call this the "Fixed Point" theory of why there are no time
travelers.  The universe recurses until it reachs a fixed point
(i.e., a universe where one one gets around to inventing a time
machine)

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 8:17:56 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: TIme Travel

If you send a gold coin 1 second into the future now you have TWO
coins?  Pardon me?  If you send your gold coin into the future, now
you have NO gold coins.  When you get 1 second into the future, you
have ONE gold coin again.

Likewise, if you send your gold coin into the past, YOU have no gold
coin, but some lucky schmuck in the past now has one.  As stated,
there's no difference between moving an object in space or time;
when moved, it's simply somewhere [somewhen, if you like] else,
not replicated.

Actually, sending your coin into the past can be interesting,
because you could actually have two coins for a while if you send it
to your own location.  In a while, you will have to send it back in
time again, or it will never have arrived...but now do you still
have your original coin?  Hmmm... and what happens if you try to
prove free will and DON'T send either coin back?  Will one of them
pop out of existence?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 15:45:17 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: time travel

>>It seems like I've heard a theory to the effect that time travel
>>can't exist not because it's theoretically impossible, but because
>>the invention of time travel makes it possible to modify the past,
>>making time travel never to have been discovered.  Knowing how to
>>travel in time is an unstable situation.
>
>I believe this suggestion is due to Larry Niven.

Nope. John Brunner, in TIMES WITHOUT NUMBER; it ends with a soldier
of the ]worldwide[ Spanish Empire stuck in present-day Central Park
with no way to get home.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:14:06 GMT
From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon)
Subject: Re: Re: Doomsday Effect and Black holes

Hawking came over to Dublin and gave a talk about his work.  As you
may or may not know, he has a muscle wasting disease (or is it
nerve) anyway, he was rather hard to hear. You could have heard a
pin drop in the room.  As an aside, on Horizon (a BBC science
program - also on PBS) there was a program about Hawking. It showed
him dictating maths to his secretary. She was typing it into a
terminal.  There it was in living colour. EQN. He was using Unix
(fanfare of trumpets)

Simon Kenyon
The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND
simon@einode.UUCP
+353-1-716255

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 86 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #254
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 254

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 16:07:36 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: ALiens

Through out the novelisation Aliens, the Aliens were refered to
numerous times as Biomechanical.  Does this mean that they were
originally used as BioWeapons by their creators.  Were some
references to this (being Biomechanical) deleted from the original
movie?  Can anyone shed some light?

Thanx,
Stephen Pearl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 19:30 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens (nightmare sequence)

My feeling about the nightmare sequence in Aliens is that it is such
an overused plot device that it has lost some of its effect on me.
As soon as things started going bad in that scene it was plainly
obvious to me that it must just be the "standard Hollywood
nightmare" scene.  The suspense was lost, and I didn't care what
happened, because I knew that it would end with her waking up in a
sweat, a nurse would come in and give her an injection, etc.  A
sequence like that only works if the fact that it is a dream is a
surprise.  It was obvious to me that if the cat had been impregnated
(I hope I'm remembering the dream correctly, viz.  that it ended
with an alien coming out of the cat) Ripley would have found out
long before; contralogical things like this generally only happen in
dreams.

However, I will admit that it was probably good enough for most
people.  I don't think the person I saw the movie with had guessed
that it was just a dream, as he seemed genuinely surprised when the
alien showed up.  30 seconds earlier, though, I had said to myself,
"I know what's going on," and just sat back and waited for it to end
so that they could get on with the plot.

barmar

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 10:25:45 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS sequel: my theory

From:   merlin.Berkeley.EDU!mudie       (David C Mudie)
>>Conclusion: The android took off so that he could get the marine
>>IMPREGNATED with an alien fetus.
>
> If there's gonna be sequel, Hicks will be the vehicle, but I don't
> think we should lay the blame on Bishop.  In "Alien", the
> face-hugger stayed on Kane for quite a while ( hours? days? )
> before dropping off.  Bishop was alone with Hicks for about
> fifteen minutes max, and that just doesn't seem like nearly enough
> time to find a face-hugger, get Hicks impregnated, and then get
> the critter off before picking up Ripley.
>
> On the other hand, remember who was taking care of Hicks in the
> Med-lab?  The Company scumbag whisked him off as soon as he was
> brought in, and it was quite a while until we saw Hicks again --
> with his new bandages.  Perhaps Hicks was impregnated then, and
> the attack on Ripley and Newt was just Scumbag's attempt to avoid
> putting all his eggs in one brisket... uh, basket.

I think you've got your sequencing mixed up. Hicks didn't get
drasticly injured until after Newt was grabbed, which in turn was
after the "Company Scumbag" bought the farm. Up until that time, he
was awake and aware. He was still conscious when Ripley left to get
Newt. And besides, they still weren't there on Acheron long enough
for Hicks (or any of the survivors) to get impregnated and then have
the face-huggers fall off.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 02:42:23 GMT
From: imsvax!ted@caip.rutgers.edu (Ted Holden)
Subject: Flaw in the Alien's physiology

Not to take anything away from Alien.  The lady in front of me
fainted dead and half the people ran out the door when the original
Alien scarfed Yaphet Koto; but.....

What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth.  Consider the
musculature needed to work that long extensible tongue with the
inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the middle
of the poor guy's food passage.  Now, in real life, creatures with
long tongues like that either suck blood, sip necture, or eat flies,
but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of flesh (which is obviously
what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made for), because there isn't room
in their throats for such a thing.

No wonder the poor guy is mean; he must go to bed every night
thinking: "God damn, I'm so hungry, I need a steak or a hamburger,
or a roast, or some juicy evolutionist, but NO MORE OF THIS FLOWER
NECTURE, please Lord....

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 19:46:33 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox)
Subject: Aliens Inside Us

>Hicks is alone the with Bishop the whole time that Ripley is
>Rambo-izing the nest.  Also, Bishop goes as far as giving Hicks a
>knock-out shot.  Hicks might not even know he was impregnated
>(raped?).

If Bishop was going to impregnate Kane, why does he need a
face-hugger?  He's already dissected at least one; mightn't he have
gotten a viable, dormant embryo from it?  Perhaps he just took of to
visit the med lab...

>And why didn't she nuke the original space ship???

Ooooh, now here's a good question.  We never saw the alien ship from
the first movie in THIS movie; we're supposed to forget it.  There
is opening #2 for a sequel.  Anyone want to try to figure out
how/why Ripley forgot?

Thomas Cox
CompuServe:  76317,3121
GEnie:  CLIPJOINT
UUCP:   ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 22:48:39 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Aliens (more on the remote landing)

srt@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>>hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
> crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
>>>First of all, we could build a ship today that could land near a
>>>beacon on automatic.
>>First question: landing on automatic under ideal conditions is
>>different from landing under nasty weather with ionization from
>>atmospheric muck.
>      The United States Navy is able to land an F-14 Tomcat on the
> flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night and at sea, by remote
> control.  We've had this ability for some years now.  These are
> not ideal conditions.  The objection that remote landing ability
> should be markedly better by the time "Aliens" takes place seems
> valid to me.

Well, if you'd been paying closer attention, you'd have noted that
the landing in the movie *IS* a remotely controlled landing.  Scott
was claiming that we could now land an *automated* craft, *NOT* a
remotely controlled craft, and that therefore the landing in Aliens
ought to be totally automated, with no remote pilot.

Moreover, the remote landing technology shown in Aliens seems quite
a bit advanced over what I'd suspect the Navy has now, at least in
terms of miniaturization and ease of setup.  If an F-14 can *really*
fly *itself* to a safe landing with no remote pilot, and no target
beacon, and no *nothing* but visual and inertial information, I'll
be prepared to admit that this is a (rather small) plot hole.  I
will take some convincing that this is currently possible, you
understand.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 23:32:19 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Flaw in the Alien's physiology

ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) writes:
>What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth.  Consider the
>musculature needed to work that long extinsible tongue with the
>inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the
>middle of the poor guy's food passage.  Now, in real life,
>creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip
>necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of
>flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made
>for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing.

I thought about it when I watched "Aliens" and came to the following
conclusions:

The outer teeth are used to "cut" resin which is secreted by the
Alien.  The resin seems to be secreted by the "tongue" but not
necessarily past the inner teeth.  The flexible tongue allows it to
spray resin all over the place (as was done by the one which roped
up the pilot's hands as she was reaching for the controls, just
before it killed her.)

When the alien wants to feed, it feeds like a spider.  It punches a
hole in the victim and injects digestive fluids, then sucks up the
results.

The tongue and outer teeth are also useful as weapons for attacking
other creatures.  Or defense, in the extremely unlikely event that
the Bugs are actually a naturally occurring lifeform.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 12:47:21 GMT
From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll)
Subject: Re: Aliens (nightmare sequence)

>My feeling about the nightmare sequence in Aliens is that it is
>such an overused plot device that it has lost some of its effect on
>me.  As soon as things started going bad in that scene it was
>plainly obvious to me that it must just be the "standard Hollywood
>nightmare" scene.  The suspense was lost, and I didn't care what
>happened, because I knew that it would end with her waking up in a
>sweat, a nurse would come in and give her an injection, etc.  A
>sequence like that only works if the fact that it is a dream is a
>surprise.

I agree about that.  I also think it was to surrealistic.  I would
have guessed before I saw everyone here talking about it that that
the producers had never intended people to not realize it was a
dream. I mean, we've all >seen< what a (birthing?) alien looks like,
and that just wasn't it.  I thought it was a good scene because it
showed Ripley's fear, and how she felt about it.  It also was kind
of horrifying even if you knew it was a dream, in the way that
surrealistic nightmares are scary even when you know you're
dreaming.  At least I felt that way.  (Strangely, that surrealistic
nightmare effect scares me more than standard scare techniques --
the Twhilight Zone movie terrified me.)

I think the best dream sequence I've ever seen has to be the one in
_American Werewolf in London_.  Unfortunately, someone warned me
about that one, so it didn't scare me too much.

Diana Carroll         diana@enmasse.UUCP
decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!enmasse!diana

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 03:10:19 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

boyajian@akov68.dec.com writes:
>[...] it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability.
>Otherwise, the "planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have
>to have been in our own solar system.  It's a lot longer than 10
>months to our nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed.

   Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in 10
months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c.  Certainly
not unreasonable.  To travel 20 LY in 10 months, .99913c.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 05:43:15 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

boyajian@akov68.dec.com writes:
>[...] it's safe to assume that they have FTL capability.
>Otherwise, the "planet of the eggs" (to coin a phrase) would have
>to have been in our own solar system.  It's a lot longer than 10
>months to our nearest stellar neighbor, even at *near* lightspeed.

   Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; you could travel this distance
in 10 months (ship time) at a constant speed of .9790c, which is not
unreasonable.  *But* this assumes instantaneous acceleration and
deceleration.  To travel 4 LY in 10 months, starting and ending at
rest, would require a constant acceleration/deceleration of 8.4g (a
good reason for deep-sleep or whatever!).  If the thrust were not
constant, the peak thrust would of course be even higher.
   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back)
the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require a
fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really is the
absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel.  So,
at last, I come to the conclusion that jayembee is right; this trip
does seem infeasible.

   Of course, this assumes that I am doing the calculations
correctly.  I am cross-posting to net.physics in case someone wants
to check them.  I think I have it right -- it's a relatively simple
exercise in special relativity.
   I should post this kind of calculation to sf-lovers more often.
It really gives you a feel for how tremendously difficult
interstellar travel would be.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 06:37:14 GMT
From: kalash@ingres.Berkeley.EDU.ARPA (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

   Except if you are accelerating, you have to do general relativity
which is MUCH harder. I think (it was always beyond me, I have to
rely on badly remembered books) once you have acceleration you lose
most if not all of the time dillation.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 07:14:35 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

   All wrong.  I mean, you live under constant 1g acceleration; how
much does it affect your clocks and so forth?  Why do you think that
9g is suddenly going to cause some huge effect?  Special relativity
is perfectly adequate for this kind of problem.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 09:12:46 GMT
From: rimey@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Ken Rimey)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

In fact, special relativity gives the exactly correct answer for
this kind of problem.  The time experienced by an astronaut
traveling along a path [x(t), y(t), z(t)] through a gravity-free
region of spacetime is

    Integral  sqrt(1 - (dx/dt)^2 - (dy/dt)^2 - (dz/dt)^2)  dt

This is the formula you write in general relativity, and this also
the formula you get from time-dilation in special relativity.  (I am
using identical units for time and distance such that c = 1)

Sorry to those who don't know calculus, and sorry to those who do
know relativity (including Mr. desJardins).

Ken

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 07:21:31 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

diana@enmasse.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes:
> [...] If you travel four light years in under four years, so are
>going faster than the speed of light, si'?

   I hardly thought it was necessary to point this out, but there is
this little thing called relativity.  The rate at which time elapses
on the ship is not the same as the rate at which it is measured by a
stationary observer.  Obviously if you travel 4 LY, a stationary
observer is going to say that it takes at least 4 years.  But you
can travel this distance in an arbitrarily short period of time, *as
measured on the ship*, if you can travel at a speed arbitrarily
close to the speed of light.

   If you don't believe/understand this, take my word for it.
Better yet, take some physics classes.  You could try to read a book
written to explain relativity to the layman -- unfortunately, they
are generally pretty bad.

David desJardins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 86 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #255
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 255

Today's Topics:

            Books - Dickinson & Robinson & Pseudonyms &
                    Best of Early 1986 & Baen Books,
            Films - Aliens Original Concept & Howard the Duck &
                    Impulse,
            Television - Men in Space & Lost in Space (3 msgs) &
                    Flight of the Dragon & The Big Pull &
                    The Twilight Zone & More SF TV
            Miscellaneous - Black Holes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 10:02:54 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Peter Dickinson

From:   vax1!jsm        (Jon Meltzer)
> Who is Peter Dickinson?

Peter Dickinson is a marvelous writer that you should look up. He's
mostly known for his mysteries, especially those about
Superintendent James Pibble. One of his mysteries, KING AND JOKER,
is at the same time an sf novel (it's set on an alternate Earth).
He's also written some fine sf and fantasy like THE BLUE HAWK and
THE GREEN GENE. His juvenile sf Changes Trilogy was just recently
republished in hardcover in the US.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 15:15:32 GMT
From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll)
Subject: Re: Yet more *SEXY* SF

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>Night of Power - Spider Robinson
>
>Some very itimate stuff involving female point of view from a male
>author, disquieting becuase you're trying figure out how much is
>real and how much is male fantasy.  Also suffers since Spider still
>hasn't found his own voice in Novel length - Heinlein in one ear,
>Sturgeon in the other.

What did you find "sexy" about _Night of Power_?  Surely not the
prepubescent fantasies of a little girl in the throes of
teacher/authority/ superior type crushes.  The scene with the Super
Glue, maybe?  (:-) (I tend to find stories where the heroine is a
ten year old girl hardly erotic.)

Spider Robinson does have a knack at the intimate though.  See the
bondage scene in _Mindkiller_ for an example.  (Pant, pant :-)

Diana Carroll     diana@enmasse.UUCP
decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!enmasse!diana

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 14:05:03 PDT
From: lll-crg!hoptoad!farren (Mike Farren)
To: nike!kaufman
Subject: Re: Rob Reiner films King's 'The Body' and Goldman's THE
Subject: PRINCESS BRIDE

SPOILER ALERT!

IF you don't already know that S. Morgenstern and William Goldman
are one and the same, now you do.  If you do, then you did, and I
abase myself in apologies.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 09:15 EST
From: Edison Wong <wongeh%vdsvax@vdsvax.tcp-ip>
Subject: Best of early 1986?

Is there anyone out there who feels that one book put out in 1986
thus far is clearly a cut above the rest?  I need some
recommendations for my inchoate 1986 collection for: Sci-Fi,
Fantasy, Horror, fiction from none of the previous categories, and
overall.

Edison Wong
wongeh%vdsvax.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 12:49:47 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Baen Books vs. Bookstores

I do have an opinion about the Baen Book Club.  Most publishers
force authors to take a reduced royalty (or even no royalty) on
books sold at greater than normal discount.  If Baen is doing this,
then he's not only hurting bookstores but also writers.  If anyone
has further information on this practice, or a defence of it, I'd be
interested to hear it.

Robert J. Sawyer
Member, SFWA
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Aug 1986 02:53:26-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Alien, original concept?

From:   Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com>
> ...(Incidentally, the original short story, later incorporated
> into VOTSB, was "Black Destroyer," published in Astounding with
> some neat illos.  If you want, Don, I'll look up the issue, unless
> Jerry beats me to it.)

Well, if you insist, it was July 1939.

> BTW, ALIEN was not the first movie to use that plot.  The same
> idea is the basis of the wretched 1958 picture IT! THE TERROR FROM
> BEYOND SPACE, which sometimes appears on TV or as a late movie at
> cons.  If you like turkeys, it falls into the category "so bad,
> it's funny."

Well, it's been at least 20 years since I've seen IT! TTFBS, but I
always thought it was a great movie when I was a kid.  The "ten
little Indians" plot was also used suspensefully in a 1966 film,
QUEEN OF BLOOD [aka PLANET OF BLOOD]. Other elements of ALIEN came
from earlier films as well. An Italian film, PLANET OF THE VAMPIRES
[aka DEMON PLANET] (1965) had a scene where the protagonists find a
derelict spaceship with the giant skeleton of a pilot. And NIGHT OF
THE BLOOD BEAST (1958) had the idea of an alien implanting embryos
into a human host.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 06:09:59 GMT
From: utastro!wheel@caip.rutgers.edu (Craig Wheeler)
Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie!

Just because YOU didnt like the movie is no reason to go THAT far
with chasing people away from it.  The script was weak and lots of
jokes telegraphed, but if you enjoy the comics or get ready to watch
some silly humor its not THAT terrible.

In fact, I enjoyed it.

I don't suppose you know about the comic in came from, seeing as how
you didnt post the review to net.comics.

Your post was an excellent example of hotheadedly posting without
giving any thought to what you're saying.  Sheesh.  We need more
reviewers who =LIKE= movies.

Rob Wheeler

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 16:04:54 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Impulse

dan@rsch.wisc.edu (Daniel M. Frank) writes:
>   It's available on video cassette, and stars Meg Tilly and some
>other people.  The title has the word "Impulse" in it, but it
>escapes me at the moment.

The movie will be on Showtime in Sept.  For all those without VCRs
or good Videostores.  Isn't cable wonderful.  (Did you know that at
one point a few years ago, SHO was considering bringing back Star
Trek in much the same format that FOX was trying to do?)

Cheers,
Stephen Pearl

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:31:43 GMT
From: cfa!mink@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Mink)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

One show I remember from the very early sixties was "Men Into
Space," which was about astronauts going to the moon.  My memories
of it are hazy--I don't think it was ever rerun--but I seem to
remember a fairly realistic lunar base and a lot about the politics
of space exploration.  Does anyone else remember this one?

Doug Mink
{ihnp4|seismo}!harvard!cfa!mink
mink%cfa.UUCP@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 03:01:26 GMT
From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb)
Subject: Re: Re: SF-TV programs (really Lost In Space)

> I seem to remember a BW epsidoe of LIS which was the pilot for the
> series. Its been such a long time and even when the show was in
> syndication around the NY area about 10 years ago and they never
> showed the BW episods which were pretty good. Am I imagining
> things or was there an actual pilot episode which delt with
> Smith's giving physicals to the crew before sabotaging the
> mission?

I remember it.  It has been a while, and some of the snippets I
recall are rather disjointed.  For example, I remember that Smith
hid in a retracting chair or some such to sabotage the Jupiter II.
I definitely remember him conducting the physicals.

I think they used parts of the pilot as flashback sequences in one
of the very late episodes when someone was giving "our heros" a
chance to return to earth.  It was during this episode (I think)
that everyone came to realize that, had not Smith been on board, the
Jupiter II would have crashed into an uncharted asteroid field or
something.

Oh well, maybe I am off base, but it has been over 12 years since
seeing these...

Jim Webb
ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jrw

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 21:50:41 GMT
From: imsvax!paul@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Knight)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (really Lost In Space)

> I seem to remember a BW episode of LIS which was the pilot for the
> series. Its been such a long time and even when the show was in
> syndication around the NY area about 10 years ago and they never
> showed the BW episods which were pretty good. Am I imagining
> things or was there an actual pilot episode which delt with
> Smith's giving physicals to the crew before sabotaging the
> mission?

Dr. Smith did not intend to stow away on the ship.  He sneaked
aboard just before takeoff to sabotage the mission.  He was an
"enemy agent" under cover as the pre-flight physician for the crew.
I believe that he reprogrammed the robot to cause a lot of damage.
Most (or maybe all) of the crew was put into suspended animation for
the takeoff.  One of the kids woke up while Smith was skulking
around before takeoff.  He explained his presence by saying that he
was checking everyone for viruses.  He said something like "One
virus in your throat could multiply and turn you into a mass of
infected tissue during suspended animation."  This comforted the
kid, who went back to sleep after being checked by Smith.  I think I
remember Smith going around to the "sleepers" and pretending to
examine them, to satisfy the kid. (Don't recall if it was Will or
Penny.)

I'm not sure how Smith got trapped on board.  Anyone remember?

As I recall, the robot was quite unintelligent in the first few
episodes, but improved with time.

I've seen Bill Mumy (Will) on some old Alfred Hitchcock reruns, but
nowhere else.

Paul Knight
UUCP:  {umcp-cs!eneevax || seismo!elsie}!imsvax!paul

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 03:06:41 GMT
From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb)
Subject: Re: LOST IN SPACE

> The robot was always called "Robot", and had one large "leg" with
> a tractor-tread-sort-of-thingy at the bottom that somehow let him
> both climb and roll around.

In the early episodes, Robot actually had two legs that shuffled
from front to rear.  In later episodes, Robot was modernized (?) and
was made to have one "large 'leg'" that did not shuffle.

Jim Webb
ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jrw

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 12 Aug 1986 18:25:54-PDT
From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Flight of the Dragons

In the credits for the recent TV fantasy "film" it was stated that
the film was based on the book _The_Dragon_and_the_George_ by Gordon
Dickson.  This is correct; there is such a book. A publisher that
comes to mind is Ballantine Books, but I would not swear to it.

<FLAME ON>
It is my personal opinion that the creators of this "film" took the
book and BUTCHERED it! They took the main characters from the book,
threw in a couple of useless ones, changed the way the story was
told, and to top it off, threw away the plot! I believe the original
story, even with the compression necessary to fit the book into the
hour availiable, would have been far preferable!
<FLAME OFF>

I guess that in order to be seen on mainstream TV, a good SF/Fantasy
story has to be modified to be palatable to the average viewer
public. I think that this is a similar issue to the discussion
earlier about _Blade_Runner, in that the producers totally turned
the original story inside out. I believe _Blade_Runner_ was still
good, not so for _Flight_.

I will concede that this WAS a FANTASY show on mainstream TV, a
major accomplishment. There seems to be a dearth on TV of this
material (I don't think I can label the _Dungeons_and_Dragons_
cartoon as Fantasy material ... well, maybe I can. its sort of O.K,
even for an older DM like me).  I seem to see a bit more SF out
there in Tube-land, although there isn't much good stuff. I am not
referring to the old stuff (i.e. ST, Dr.W, etc).

Getting back to the original question, _The_Dragon_and_the_George_
is an excellent book by Gordon Dickson. Maybe he should have gotten
the producers of _Flight_ to "informally base" it on his book :-)

kevin routley

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 13:47:50 GMT
From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: The Big Pull

Does anyone else remember a BBC television serial called "The Big
Pull" which had a sequel called (I think) "The Big Push". It would
have been running sometime in the early sixties and was concerned
(initially) with the fact that when pairs of astronauts were sent
into space only one returned, this one astronaut having absorbed the
personality of the missing astronaut. I believe that the main
astronaut character was called Anderson.  This program scared me a
lot, but NOBODY seems to remember it (not even my mother and father
who I know watched it with me). There is no trace of this in any
histories of SF or listings of sixties programs. Please tell me I'm
not making this up...

Lindsay F. Marshall
Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK
ARPA  : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa
JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
UUCP  : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 08:45 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: re:...(It's a GOOD life)

   I seem to remember reading that story, by Jerome Bixby (I think),
in an anthology called Tomorrow's Children, (edited by Asimov) and
being surprised a number of years later when I saw it on TV. It was
either a TWILIGHT ZONE or OUTER LIMITS episode. It WAS Billy Mumy.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 16:46 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: SF-TV programs

There are three SF TV shows I remember that nobody has mentioned
yet.

MEN IN SPACE

This one became the subject of both a comic book and Murray Leinster
novelization.  I don't remember the years, though late '50s is what
comes to mind.  The rockets were stage rockets, the manned capsules
were bullet shaped, sometimes with steering fins.  No idea about
production dates, names, or acters.

WORLD OF GIANTS

Another show of about the same time period.  A US spy gets exposed
to some top secret rocket fuel and shrinks to a six inch height.  I
remember him riding around inside a camera (he could look out the
lens aperature), and living in a doll house.  One episode he sneaks
into a pidgeon coop to relieve a courier pidgeon of its message.  He
carried a tear gas pen, that was of large size (to him).

JOHNNY QUEST

Prime time animated series of the '60s.  Now coming out in comic
book form.

And, one other show I saw back in the late '50s or early '60s, DR.
WHO.  How, might you ask?  Well, I saw it broadcast on a Canadian
station (from Vancouver, B.C.  I think).  I didn't quite know what
to make of it at the time.  I guess it was from current BBC
production of that time, or else closer to it than the US is getting
now.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 10:41 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: black holes and Broadhead(Gateway)

*** Major Spoiler Warning :  Alert, Alert!  ***

At the end of Gateway, Braodhead's group of five find a black hole,
but get trapped.  The ship is a two-piece ship, and everyone gets
into one end in order to eject the other half.  Broadhead runs back
to get something and "accidently" pushes the eject button.  (Even he
isn't certain).  He survives and everyone else is trapped in the
blackhole.  By ejecting the other half of the ship enough momentum
is transferred to the first half to get out of the event horizon.
Similar to the pair production example.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 86 1055-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #256
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 256

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 23:08:43 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

The underlying point most of you have missed is that it took no more
than a month FROM THE COLONIST'S POINT OF VIEW for the Marines to
reach the planet.  Gateway was certainly NOT some fraction of a
light-month from Acheron.  That REQUIRES FTL of some form.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 18:40:59 GMT
From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>   Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in 10
>months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c.  Certainly
>not unreasonable.  To travel 20 LY in 10 months, .99913c.

Huh?  Either your calculations are wrong, or mine are.  Would anyone
who see's a problem with them please let me know?

C = 2.998e+08 m/sec.  4LY = 3.788e+16 m.  10M (months) = 2.63e+07 sec.

The speed necessary to go 4LY (lightyears) in 10M is

        4LY meters     3.788 x 10**16 m
speed = ----------  =  ---------------- = 1.44 x 10**9 m/s.
        10M seconds    2.63 x 10**7 sec

                speed m/s         1.44 x 10**9 m/s
% lightspeed =  --------- x 100 = ----------------- x 100 = 480%
                C m/s             2.998 x 10**8 m/s

That makes sense because lightyear is defined as the distance light
travels in one year.  If you travel four light years in under four
years, so are going faster than the speed of light, si'?  Also
(4.8c) times (10 months) is (four years), the time it would take to
travel four lightyears AT the speed of light.

Diana Carroll         diana@enmasse.UUCP
decwrl!decvax!genrad!panda!enmasse!diana

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 17:44:17 GMT
From: ihlpa!pkb@caip.rutgers.edu (Benson)
Subject: Re: Flaw in the Alien's physiology

> What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth.  Consider the
> musculature needed to work that long extinsible tongue with the
> inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the
> middle of the poor guy's food passage.  Now, in real life,
> creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip
> necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of
> flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made
> for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing.
>
> No wonder the poor guy is mean; he must go to bed every night
> thinking: "God damn, I'm so hungry, I need a steak or a hamburger,
> or a roast, or some juicy evolutionist, but NO MORE OF THIS FLOWER
> NECTURE, please Lord....

I don't remember for sure so I'm probably wrong. In Alien didn't the
monster suck the brain matter out of the crew members it
caught??????

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 23:10:42 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>To travel 4 LY in 10 months, starting and ending at rest, would
>require a constant acceleration/deceleration of 8.4g (a good reason
>for deep-sleep or whatever!).
>   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back)
>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require
>a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.

Except that it was quite obvious that all the ships in both ALIEN
movies used generated gravitational fields.  This solves all your
problems.  Accelerations of thousands of Gs are possible with no
strain, and no reaction mass is required (in theory) because you
latch on to other mass around you.  Assuming you could make a
"gravity laser" that did not diminish with distance, you could just
latch on to your target star (with attraction) or your home star
(with repulsion).

If you could make the acceleration arbitrarily high, you could leave
the Galaxy in a week subjective time (except that you would hit lots
of particles at that speed and would also need a strong force field
to protect you.)

Anti gravity also explains the atmospheres on the ships.  The walls
are there for convenience and safety.  Most of the air stays on ship
through gravity.  That's why the air flow in the lock was not so
strong that old Rip couldn't hang on.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Sun 17 Aug 86 11:25:06-EDT
From: Ben Bishop <T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Aliens and FTL

Ok, let us try to get some things right and figure this out.

In ALIEN, Lambert says they're half way home (10 months more to go
-- for the sake of argument, 10 SUBJECTIVE months to go) and they
are not even able to find Alpha Centauri (I presume they had a fix
on where SOL/sun was and just needed another star to figure where
they were on their route).

Given FTL, no problem: SUBJECTIVE = real time and everything is
happy.

With no FTL, it gets a bit confusing.  Accellerating or
Decellerating that ship (the Nostromo w/cargo was *huge*) would have
cost a fortune (even in adjusted dollars -:)); but let's assume that
getting it up to and down from that kind of speed is no problem --
we have to since we do NOT have FTL.

Now, one thing with FAST ships, and I mean near 'c' (especially
where time dilation is MUCH bigger than 4:1) is that the 'real' time
goes by at an astounding rate on earth (yes, wrt the ship of
course).  To travel 10 light years in 10 subjective months would
require more than 10 years on earth (I don't feel like working out
the math, especially since it isn't that important -- except that 10
ly ==> at least 10 years).

Fine.  And it seems that the Nostromo was just a hair or two beyond
10 light years from earth.  Notice the scales.  Now what was so
*terrible* about Riply being gone for 57 years?  That's NOTHING.
They must be hitting dilation times like that all the time, if not
MUCH longer.

Don't try and counter that it was SUBJECTIVE time either (wrt
Riply): the company seemed to make it quite clear that it was earth
time.  And even then, in 20 years the colonists would have had to
have gotten there, and set up everything as it was in ALIENS -- a
task that looked like it took 20 years.

So, from this I think everyone can reasonably assume that the ALIEN/
ALIENS universe had human technology at the FTL level.

Ben Bishop
bishop@athena.mit.edu

p.s. If it *did* take years to get someplace, and reinforcements
were only 17 days away, I would have waited the 17 days so I would
have IMMEDIATE backup -- waiting 10+ years for help would be silly.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 86 03:08:09 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox)
Subject: Alien physiology -- comments

hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
>ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) writes:
>>What doesn't ring true is the double set of teeth.  Consider the
>>musculature needed to work that long extinsible tongue with the
>>inner teeth, and the fact that all of that is perforce in the
>>middle of the poor guy's food passage.  Now, in real life,
>>creatures with long tongues like that either suck blood, sip
>>necture, or eat flies, but they DON'T bolt down huge chunks of
>>flesh (which is obviously what the Alien's OUTER teeth are made
>>for), because there isn't room in their throats for such a thing.

I'll grant you the aardvark, but explain for me the flamingo's
tongue.

>I thought about it when I watched "Aliens" and came to the
>following conclusions:
>
>The outer teeth are used to "cut" resin which is secreted by the
>Alien.  The resin seems to be secreted by the "tongue" but not
>necessarily past the inner teeth.  The flexible tongue allows it to
>spray resin all over the place (as was done by the one which roped
>up the pilot's hands as she was reaching for the controls, just
>before it killed her.)
>
>When the alien wants to feed, it feeds like a spider.  It punches a
>hole in the victim and injects digestive fluids, then sucks up the
>results.

Sorry, but no.  No, no, no.  That only works on creatures with
exoskeletons.  An ant will dissolve and turn into a nice
spider-meal; but you and me would run all over the floor.  No
external non-dissolving covering.  And don't say "they coat people
with resin" because then you're investing shitloads of energy AND
bodily resources just for a meal.

>The tongue and outer teeth are also useful as weapons for attacking
>other creatures.  Or defense, in the extremely unlikely event that
>the Bugs are actually a naturally occurring lifeform.

I heard recently about some group that meets regularly to dream up
alien beings and then puts together two of them to see what would
happen.  I gather that Larry Niven et. al. are part of the group to
be techno-physics gadflies.  Sounds like fun, and I wonder what they
would say about Aliens from the movie of that name . . .

I never saw an Alien *eat* anybody.  Rend limb from limb, yes; gouge
chunks out of, yes; decapitate, yes.  Eat, no.  And as for the crap
I've read about eating brains and absorbing RNA, sweet Jesus, who
ever told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!?  Sure, cells'
instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you studied in
college and high school is packed away as RNA?  Anyone care to
enlighten us as to how memory is stored?  I'll give you a hint: It
Isn't RNA.

Now, the Aliens DO grow out of hosts, but there seemed to be very
little in the way of *eating* from the inside.  The little [big?]
buggers only seem to be noticed by the hosts AS THEY EMERGE.  And
how do you have something that size squirrelled away inside your
body w/o noticing?  Do the face-huggers remove your right lung to
make room?  And just how do they get so big after they come out?
[Maybe they do eat people; then again, maybe they eat metal too]

Thomas Cox
CompuServe:  76317,3121
GEnie:  CLIPJOINT
UUCP:   ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 23:57 MDT
From: <SLRM8%USU.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (KARL MATHIAS)
Subject: Aliens: leaving the bay door open

In regards to professional soldiers leaving the bay to their craft
open in the movie "Aliens":

I am in the Air Force, and while not a member of an aircrew, I have
noticed that transports quite often leave their bay doors open while
on an airfield.  This allows the crew and maintenance teams easier
movement out of the craft, and I would imagine that it allows some
ventilation of the compartment.

Sitting on the ground all buttoned up would drive the aircrew of
such a small craft into fits after a while.  Anyway, would you sit
on the ground all closed up so someone (or in "Aliens" something)
could tear up your external devices, i.e. engines, communication
devices, control surfaces, armor, etc?  Not me.  More than likely
the co-pilot was out checking the ship over and one of the beasties
slipped in the bay door.

2d Lt Karl Mathias

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 13:43:50 GMT
From: helm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Hyman)
Subject: Re: ALIENS sequel: my theory

tedi@dartvax.UUCP (Edward M. Ives) writes:
>Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel,
>you never know; money talks.  In which case, here is my stupid
>theory on the plot:

"Survey Says.....BZZZT"

IF Sigourney Weaver gets her way, THERE WILL BE an A sequel to
Aliens!  I saw A LIVE interview of her right after I saw the film,
and she said that she Loved the character and doing the movie, and
that she saw various Unused, and over-looked areas in the story, as
well as things that could be built upon, and that she WAS CURRENTLY
Planning on doing a sequel which she intended to be in and direct.
When prompted as to a possibly title for the third film, she gave a
smug look and said "Oh, I'm not sure yet, but it would have to be
something like "Aliens GALORE"

Hopefully it will be an ALL OUT war with the Aliens when we find out
that they aren't a bunch of misplaced ants, but a HI-tech space
faring society. Then we can have the Good space shoot em up we've
been waiting to see!

Eric Hyman @ HELM
(516)-694-5320 philabs!sbcs!helm!eric

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 19:30:12 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back)
>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require
>a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really is the
>absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel.

First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit;
merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid
transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable.

Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be practical.
This nullifies the whole calculation.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 21:08:24 GMT
From: oakhill!hunter@caip.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales)
Subject: Re: Alien physiology -- comments

benn@sphinx.UUCP (T Cox) writes:
>gouge chunks out of, yes; decapitate, yes.  Eat, no.  And as for
>the crap I've read about eating brains and absorbing RNA, sweet
>Jesus, who ever told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!?
>Sure, cells' instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you
>studied in college and high school is packed away as RNA?  Anyone
>care to enlighten us as to how memory is stored?  I'll give you a
>hint: It Isn't RNA.

   I seem to recall some experiment done with planaria (flatworms)
in which a bunch of worms were trained to run a maze by use of
electric shocks.  These were then ground up and fed to some
untrained worms and, lo and behold, these worms could negotiate the
maze with no trouble.  Did I dream this or is this just part of the
memory puzzle?

Motorola Semiconductor Inc.
Hunter Scales
Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 15:30:37 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_apmj@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick M Juola)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

diana@enmasse.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes:
>desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>>   Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in
>>10 months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c.
>
>Huh?  Either your calculations are wrong, or mine are.  Would
>anyone who see's a problem with them please let me know?

Mr. desJardins is talking about ship time, which is affected by
relativistic time dialation.  Check any freshman physics textbook
for references.  (Basically time as perceived on the ship runs
slower than in the rest of the universe, so the crew only sees 10mo
pass.)

Pat Joula
Hopkins Maths
{seisom!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_apmj

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 86 1119-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #257
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 257

Today's Topics:

                Books - Turner & Heart of the Comet,
                Films - Howard the Duck & Movies on Video,
                Television - The Flight of Dragons & 
                        Lost in Space,
                Miscellaneous - Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 22:39:38 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: The New World: A Review

   "This is a grand, glowing poem. Turner's wonderful hand at
    blending cultures... and the ease whereby tricks out of
    Star Wars shed their hokum and become a jamais litteraire
    ... made for a happiness that simply grew as I read..."

    James Merrill

A year or two ago I asked in this newsgroup why all SF poetry was so
abominable, and why there was no serious SF poetry as impressive as
(say) The Book of the New Sun. There is now: Frederick Turner's "The
New World: An Epic Poem," Princeton University Press, 1985, 182 pp.

What's it about? Since I can't say it any better, I quote from
Turner's introduction:

"...The story opens in the year 2376 A.D. The world's fossil and
nuclear fuels have been spent, its metallic ores exhausted, and much
of its population either departed for the stars or slaughtered in
the great twentieth- and twenty-first-century pogroms against the
middle class. But high civilizations, based on a technology of solar
and wind power, glass and resin chemistry, microprocessors and
bioengineering, still flower on the earth. War is waged by mounted
knights in resinite armor, with lasers and swords. The ancient
institution of the nation state, obeying the same historical laws
that brought it into existence, has collapsed, and the human race
has discovered new forms of political organization: the Riots --
violent matriarchies based in the ancient cities, whose members have
no incest prohibitions and no money, are addicted to the psychedelic
joyjuice, and have almost lost the power of human language; the
Burbs -- populations descended from the old middle class, whom the
Riots hold hostage and use as slaves to produce their food, luxuries
and joyjuice; the Mad Counties -- religious theocracies, dominated
in North America, by fanatical fundamentalists; and the Free
Counties -- independent Jeffersonian aristocratic democracies, where
art, science, and the graces of human life are cultivated to their
highest, as in classical Athens, Renaissance Florence, and Heian
Japan. The Free Counties have developed a new religion of their own,
combining science, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and the other
major religions. Under the influence of the great oriental cultures,
the implicit divisions of American society have emerged explicitly
in a caste system..."

Yow. And that's just the background for the story. :-) WARNING:
possible spoilers follow (if a spoiler is possible with an epic
that's made for retelling, that is).

The story takes place in a time when a league of Mad Counties have
launched a Holy War against the free counties of Ahiah. It's about
the events that happen to member of the McCloud and Quincy families,
especially the hero James George Quincy. If this book had been
written as an SF novel, it would probably be nominated for a major
award: the story is a GREAT one, and the world Turner creates is
convincing in a way that few SF worlds other than Dune, Middle
Earth, and Urth are. It started slow for me: I had to read 50 to 60
pages before Turner's story grabbed me by the throat and made me
take notice (interestingly, that's a point some reviewers have also
made: it takes a while, I think, for the reader to adjust to a style
so long out of fashion: "The New World" should be read aloud,
perhaps, with a circle of friends). In reading this epic poem, I am
reminded of several other SF works: "Engine Summer" by John Crowley,
"The Book Of The New Sun" by Gene Wolfe, and "Dune" by Frank
Herbert. Turner's universe has some similarities to the universes
created in those works. I feel that it will take some time for SF
fans to approach this work as SF (it's a quirky thing, writing an
epic poem in the 1980s: and a still quirkier thing writing an SF
epic), but that eventually it will be recognized as an important and
rich contribution to the genre. Not only is the story a great one,
full of great drama, love, treachery and despair, but the main
characters (mostly) are believable people you come to care for (the
characters I have trouble with are comic characters, but that's OK
if you can get into the classical tradition).

In my opinion, this is great and charming SF. Is it great poetry? I
suspect it will be controversial, since it's a truly conservative
challenge to the directions poetry has been going in in our century
(Turner claims he's trying to go beyond modernist lyric poetry in
the Introduction, which you should definitely read if you want to
get into this book). At times the poetry drags, but that's true of
all epics (epic, remember, is not lyric). But listen to the music of
the first stanza in which the poet invokes his muse (Sperimenh is
one of their gods, the god of human creativity (i.e., Experiment)).
By the way, the poet is a voice from the 24th century; this is
revealed toward the end (p. 160) when he talks about his own
experiences in a time of hardship.

   I sing of what it is to be a man and woman in our time.
   Wind of the spirit, I should have called upon you long ago
   but you would have me gasp, draw dust for breath,
   weep without tears, spoil the tale in its telling,
   wander an emigrant where no garden grows
   before you'd take me back into the bosom of your word.
   Sperimenh, master-mistress, heavenly ghost
   of humanity, tell to me how heroines and heroes dignify
   the windmills that they turn, how invent the truth out of nothing.
   Your body, I know it as this sweet English that I learned;
   It may be seen in other, finer dressing,
   in the feathers of brilliant inflexions, in the scales and spines
   of what barbaric or subtle or lucid civilizations,
   but where I love your gentle face is in our English:
   bright-eyed, furry, swift-footed, suckler of her young.
   I have walked the maze of words, preoccupied, and then
   burst out suddenly into your astonishing air, knowing
   my toinl as a tiny threading of your immense mind,
   a mind as innocent as meadows, as lovely, as beyond dying.
   What that great web is you are weaving, no one of us knows;
   lend me your lightning, apocalypse yourself, let me see
   one pattern of the whole, and clothe my poem in words.

If you're going to read this poem, you'll need (as I've said) some
patience to get into it. As for me, I'm going to read it again right
away.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:34:16 GMT
From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: HEART of the COMET - A book review

From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
>I finished Heart Of the Comet by Gregory Benford and David Brin
>several days ago.  Before my impressions fail me, I will relate
>them:

I also just finished Heart of the Comet, and would like to comment
on some of your statements.

>BEWARE OF MILD SPOILERS
>
>earth people have landed on Comet Halley and are attempting to find
>out any deep dark secrets it may carry.

Actually, the goal of the project is to see if the comet can be
placed in an orbit that is more accessible to Earth. The idea seems
to be that comets can be used to supply various raw materials,
including water. Later events, which form the basis for the story,
change that.

>extreme prejudice.  The prejudice isn't racial, rather it is
>ideological in nature.

I'm having a hard time with this one. In one sense, the Percells and
the Orthos are not different races, but in another sense they are
(two orthos certainly couldn't give birth to a Percell). I had the
clear impression that there was dislike and (personal)
discrimination based on this genetic variance, not just on ideology.
I just don't know enough genetics to argue the appropriateness of
the word "racism".

>with wordy ideas and passages, there wasn't enough "REAL" SF to
>satisfy me.  The reader is asked to accept a few outlandish ideas,
>and that's tough enough in a book that I like.

I thought there was a fair amount of what I consider to be "real"
SF. Methods of working in low gravity, ways to alter a comet's
orbit, use of robots and computers in manufacturing... None of these
may be explained in great detail, but they are there. The only
outlandish idea(s) that I saw dealt with the biological advances
that were postulated at the beginning of the story, and which were
continued as it progressed. They didn't seem that unreasonable to
me, although I'm not a biologist.

>Heart of the Comet rates a -1.5.  That makes it one to read when
>desperate for a late night sedative.

I would say that the book is much better than this, say +2 or so.
Not riveting, but clearly better than average.

Ned Danieley
decvax!duke!ndd

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 01:28:03 GMT
From: spdcc!dyer@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie!

Gordon Hamachi has said it all, and has kept me from wasting too
much of my time blathering on about how revoltingly stupid this
movie is.  This is truly Lucas' "Heaven's Gate"; a steep slide down
the slippery slope that began with "RotJedi".  It is beyond me how
anyone with any sense at all could think of releasing this picture:
it is dull, witless, tastelessly derivative of everything ever done
by the Spielberg/Landis/Lucas mafia, much of which wasn't worth
seeing the first time, and totally undeserving of anyone's time,
even for $1.00 on a video tape.

My friend next to me fell asleep, as did a few more of the handful
of people sitting alone in the cavernous 70mm Dolby theater.  If
anything, the miniscule size of the audience on a weekend night is a
fine reminder of the power of word-of-mouth--this movie arrived
fatally injured, and it hasn't got long to live.

Steve Dyer
dyer@harvard.HARVARD.EDU
{linus,wanginst,bbnccv,harvard,ima,ihnp4}!spdcc!dyer

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 17:23:23 GMT
From: enmasse!diana@caip.rutgers.edu (Diana Carroll)
Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video

>A few others (not really scifi but so what):
>  2069 - A Sex Odyssey  (R-rated German film)
>  Lust in Space  (X-rated)
>  Vixanna's Revenge (aka Whore of the Worlds, aka Lust in Space II
>    / X-rated)
>  Ultraflesh  (x-rated with Seka)

Let us not forget that classic (?hmph?) "Star Virgin".  :-) Complete
with phallic robot to teach girl raised in space about earthly
pleasures.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:37:30 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons

> alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Allen England)
> I saw this also and was pleasantly surprised to see that it was a
> decent adaptation of the Dickson's story "The Dragon and the
> George".

Ghak!  "Decent" you say?  This must be some meaning of "decent" with
which I am not familiar!

I'll agree that 1) the TV show was not without charm, and 2) the
elements that were imported from TDatG enhanced the show, and mostly
formed the best parts of it.  But I would have thought that anyone
seeing this expecting an adaptation of the book would have been
bitterly dissapointed.

In addition to major elements, events, and plot lines from TDatG,
the show drags in elements of LotR, (or perhaps some more generic
"quest" saga) Brunner's "The Traveler in Black", a little touch of
Niven's Mana and a fairly large element of D&D gaming, but in a
comercialized token-and-board format.  They should have left well
enough alone, as these extra elements mainly led to incongruities
and inconsistancies.

Further, the "triumph" of "Science" over "Magic" at the end was
handled so poorly that, when I contemplate innocent youngsters
viewing this propaganda, I must violently supress my urge to vomit.

I'll grant that many parts of it are "decent", and the whole wasn't
as bad as the worst elements I note above.  But, viewed as an
adaptation of TDatG, it is, at best, tolerable.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 11:22:25 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: LOST IN SPACE pilot

From:   topaz!paone     (Phil Paone)
> I seem to remember a BW epsidoe of LIS which was the pilot for the
> series. Its been such a long time and even when the show was in
> syndication around the NY area about 10 years ago and they never
> showed the BW episods which were pretty good. Am I imagining
> things or was there an actual pilot episode which delt with
> Smith's giving physicals to the crew before sabotaging the
> mission?

You're certainly not remembering the actual pilot for the series,
since the pilot as such was never televised (the situation is
somewhat, but not exactly, like that of STAR TREK's "The Cage"), and
more importantly, the Dr. Smith character didn't exist in the pilot.
You're thinking of the first episode of the series (which has the
scene you describe). The entire first season of the show was filmed
in black and white.

Anyways, the true pilot (which can be had, though not legally, on
videotape --- I've watched a copy) is a bit different from the final
product. For one, as I said, Dr.  Smith didn't exist --- it was the
meteor shower they encounter that sends them off course, rather than
Smith's extra weight throwing off the navigation. Secondly, the
Robot didn't exist in the pilot, either. Thirdly, the ship was not
named Jupiter II in the pilot (I'm not going to tell you what it
was, as I have a trivia question about that posted elsewhere). Last,
but not least, the music in the pilot wasn't the familiar "Johnny"
Williams music, but Bernard Hermann's music from THE DAY THE EARTH
STOOD STILL.  The pilot's story elements ended up being parceled out
to the first five episodes of the show.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 15:55:34 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@caip.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman)
> For example, take a small gold coin.  Send it 1 second into the
> future.  (I assume you've solved the problem of displacing the
> matter present at the time/place of the coin's appearance).  Now
> you have two coins.  So, after you've "time-cloned" the growing
> pile of coins 16 times, you get 65,000+ gold coins.  Clearly this
> violates conservation of mass.

Huh?? If you send a coin a second into the future, you would not
have 2 coins, but a 1sec period where there are no coins at all! To
duplicate the coin you would have to send it into the past, where
the coin already existed. This would not violate cons of mass,
because the 'original' coin would disappear after the 1sec preiod of
two coins (follow?):

original:    -------------------------------------
duplicate:                             -------------------->
                                       t0        t1

Sending the coin back in time is folding its time-line.  At t1 the
'original' is sent back to t0; two coins then exist (really the same
coin of course) until t1 again, when the 'original' disappears
(because it was sent back).  This raises an interesting thought: If
I mark the original coin between t0 and t1, then an identical mark
should appear on the 'duplicate' (but not the other way around). I
could (say) send a piece of paper back a week to myself a week ago,
and take it to some distant location. Then, until the time of
sending is reached again, I would have a means of instant
communication! Any comments/thoughts?

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 86 1140-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #258
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 258

Today's Topics:

                        Star Trek (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 86 09:32 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Saavik's half-Romulan

The fact that Saavik is half-Romulan is mentioned in the Vonda
McIntyre novelizations of STII:TWOK and STIII:TSFS.  These books are
very enjoyable.  The characterizations are good, some details are
covered that are not covered in the movies.  Overall, quite
satisfying books.

Brett (Slocum at HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 86 16:49:15 PDT
From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Star Trek and New Characters



Chris Durham writes "the killing of David was a mistake"....

Maybe, if what you want is new characters.  Within the context of
The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock, David's death is
thematically necessary.  The two movies should really be part of a
trilogy, dealing with the question of facing death.  TWOK is Spock's
or the intellect's answer: you minimize the number of people who
have to die to save the community.  TSFS is McCoy's or the emotional
answer: you risk the whole community to save a valued individual.
Kirk can't get his friend back (and, as he says, keep his personal
integrity) without risking everything he has, and in the process he
loses the two expressions of his own immortality: his ship and his
son.  He had really lost Spock in TWoK; if that loss were not to be
a trick (change the rules so you never have to face a No-Win
situation) then to get Spock back Kirk has to make a sacrifice
equally great, and more personal than simply exchanging one friend
for another (such as losing McCoy or Sulu).

If the powers that be were going to do this right, the third movie
would have Kirk resolving the emotional and the intellectual
response somehow in the face of his own death.  I admit that's a
tall order.

Personally, I'd like to see Kirk lost in space, a legend in his own
time, and a new crew on a new ship.

Christe McMenomy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 23:41:37 GMT
From: meccts!rjg@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: ST IV: The Voyage Home

>Kirk, Spock, the basic bridge crew, and a few others (redshirts?)
>go back in time to 1989, where they have to get a whale, and bring
>it back so it can tell the aliens that everything's just peachy
>keen.
>
>I have pieced that much together from various rumors; anybody know
>more?

From Official sources (Paramount), The crew of the Enterprise (now
the Bird of Prey...), return to _present day_ Earth.  Not slightly
in the future or the past, but present.  They don't make any
comments about the plot in general, but the story does feature Jane
Wyatt as Amanda, and on present day earth, the crew teams up with a
marine biologist played by Catherine Hicks.  A quote from the
official Star Trek fan club newsletter (article by Harve Bennett):

"Star Trek IV is a time travel story.  Our crew is coming back to
present time.  We think that it is a totally delicious idea and I
hope everyone feels so when they see it.  We are going to have our
crew walking the streets of today.  That never really quite happened
in the series, it was always a little after or a little before.
We're talking about coming back at great peril and for a noble
purpose to save the Earth of the future.  They have to come back to
find in the 20th century what no longer exists in the 23rd century."

There has never been an official mention of whales, at least.
Secondary characters returning in addition to Robin Curtis as
Saavik, are Grace Lee Whitney, Majel Barrett, and Mark Lenard.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 19:48:51 GMT
From: ccd700!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (prototype account)
Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan

From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
> The fact that Saavik is half-Romulan is mentioned in the Vonda
> McIntyre novelizations of STII:TWOK and STIII:TSFS.

Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships?

Jim Sitek

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 00:09:59 GMT
From: goldberg_4b@h-sc4.harvard.edu (Randy Goldberg)
Subject: Re: ST IV: The Voyage Home

bdw@ncoast.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
> They keep making one request, over and over: they want to speak to
>"The Guardians."

Shades of V'ger and Nomad??  I DO wish these stupid writers would
come up with a few original ideas occasionally!

E-mail to goldberg_4b@h-sc4.UUCP
USmail to Randy Goldberg,157-58 17th Avenue,Whitestone NY 11357-3252
(E-mail only good until 16 Aug 1986)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 15:57:02 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan

jim@ccd700.UUCP (prototype account) writes:
>Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships?

Aside from the crew of the Intrepid, who died as soon as they were
mentioned, Vulcans are _very_rare_ in the Fleet.  During the run of
the show, I don't believe ANY others were shown.  One was blown away
at the begining of STI: The Motion Sickness.  And, of course,
there's Spock and Saavik (both of her ;-).

Anyone else?

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 08:41 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Death in Star Trek

The first paragraph of a recent posting of mine somehow disappeared
between sending and its appearance in SFLovers, making, to me, the
remaining comments rather incomprehensible.  I'll try sending again.

Yes, STiii's treatment of death as temporary is one of the main
reasons I dislike it so much, and the reason one of my favorite ST
stories is a fan written one, "Neverland" in the fanzine StarWings.
Written before STiii, it's point was really to argue that Spock
shouldn't be brought back, but goes on to address the concept of
death and its importance to life.

This is, by the way, another reason why I see a lot of philosophy in
ST -- I've read a lot of it in ST fanzines which can get much deeper
into the philosophical than the series or any of the pro novels.

(I think StarWings is out of print, but if anyone's intested,
message me, and I'll look into it.  I have no connection with the
publication beyond knowing some of the folks involved with it.)

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:39:46 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: STAR TREK and Greek drama

>     Speaking of Greek plays, there's another interesting aspect of
>ST II-- Khan fit the part of a tragic figure.  Athough a
>potentially great man, he was destroyed by ambition and his lust
>for revenge.

Now \that/ is a very interesting analogy---although I'm not sure it
holds up.  After all, one of the fundamental premises of Greek
tragedy was that men were men and gods were gods, and any man who
forgot the difference was in for it.  (e.g., in ANTIGONE Cleon has
had it as soon as he demands (after winning the battle for Thebes)
that his brother's body not be buried, as this is a violation of the
rules of the gods.) Sartre makes a point of this in THE FLIES (a
slanted retelling of parts of the Oresteia), in which Zeus is a
petty tyrant.  My recollection is that Greek drama doesn't deal
(even the oblique Fruit-of-the-Tree-of-Knowledge fashion) with the
question of puny humans who somehow transcend mere humanity (surely
Shaw wasn't the first to consider a Superman, but I can't think of
anyone further back than that---maybe it took the establishment of
evolution to raise the possibility)).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:40:16 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: transparent radiation barriers

>radiation barrier behind which Spock died.  She maintained that it
>was impossible for a radiation shield to be transparent (My theory
>was that it wasn't transparent, but that it had visible light
>receptors and transmitters on each side.) and a vicious argument
>ensued.

Since "crystal" (truly transparent glass, where normal sand-and-soda
glass is distinctly green) is made largely from lead, it should be
possible (albeit expensive) to construct a large transparent
radiation barrier, possibly with Lexan laminations for strength.
Alfred Bester has a form of this in THE STARS MY DESTINATION, which
was written in the earlier 50's.

------------------------------

Date: 14 August 86 17:26 EDT
From: O9YJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: (copy) Star Trek

 I'd like to argue some of the points made in a recent letter.

> ST III was the slowest and least interesting of all three
> (movies)...No particular theme, and no particular contribution.

  WRONG. ST III demonstrated the final step in Kirk's maturation
(or, more accurately, demonstrated that it has taken place).
Remember young J.T. Kirk?  I'll never lose you... NEVER! His career,
and especially the Enterprise, were of paramount (8-)) importance in
his life; all else was secondary. He could not have destroyed the
Enterprise at that point in his life, because he was so closely
connected to it. He did threaten to destroy the ship at least twice:
once as a bluff (LTBYLB) and once as a means of stopping the Kelvans
(BAON); he could not go through with it in the latter case, however.
That sacrifice would be too much for the young Kirk to make, because
he has blurred the distinction between the Enterprise itself, and
what it represents: NOTHING is more important than my ship.  >
  However, by the time of ST III, Kirk has matured a great deal. He
now knows that what gives the Enterprise life are the ideals and
aspirations of the people aboard her. Without them, the Enterprise
is just a ship.  A good ship, one that he still loves, but not the
most important thing in the galaxy. In other words, I think the
quote would now read: NOTHING is more important than my crew.
  ST III proves that Kirk has finally realized WHY he's always loved
the Enterprise: it embodies the greatest hopes, dreams, and
aspirations of its crew, and mankind in general. These ideals
breathe life into the Enterprise, and without them to sustain her,
she is only a ship. Kirk can now sacrifice this ship because he now
knows that, though the Enterprise will die, the dreams that gave her
life will continue. That doesn't sound e unimportant to me.

> How many people have died for your impatience? Answer:none.

 I think the crew of the Grissom would disagree, if they hadn't been
killled by a Klingon trying to steal the Genesis device that
otherwise would not have existed.

> ST occasionally rose above the masses (of Hollywood junk) in its
> writing...  Frequently it didn't.
>
> WRONG. The entire first season, at least 2/3 of the second
> season, and several of the final season episodes were
> exceptionally well written, and most of the rest were at least
> average.

  It was the FIRST credible, intelligent (to those who disagree:
EVERYTHING seems obvious after 20 viewings!), clever, witty science
fiction show that addressed relevant issues in an enjoyable context.
I think you forget that science fiction draws a very limited
audience on TV, so ST was up against the wall from the beginning.
MASH is a comparatively easy format to pass off, so of course its
appeal is greater. Also, let's not deify MASH; despite this easier
format, many of the episodes were either a)boring, b)pointless, or
c)both. They weren't ALL classics.

 I trust this letter will draw a variety of responses...

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 20:33:08 GMT
From: mtgzz!eme@caip.rutgers.edu (e.m.eades)
Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan

>Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships?

In one episode or book (it's hard for me to remember since I read
the Star Trek books long before I ever saw them), a starship manned
only (mostly?) by vulcans called the Intrepid was destroyed.  The
story involved a giant amoeba-like creature is consuming portions of
the galaxy and the Intrepid was sent to investigate.  Spock "feels"
the ship die shortly before the Enterprise is sent to investigate
the Intrepid's disappearance.

E.Eades

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 01:30:19 GMT
From: public@wheaton (Joe Public)
Subject: Re: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan

jim@ccd700.UUCP writes:
>Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships?

In fact, there was a starship manned with an entirely Vulcan crew.
Shame on me for not being able to remember the episode or the name
of the ship (it's on the tip of my tongue) but the storyline
involved the invasion of the galaxy by a gigantic amoeba-like living
organism, and Kirk and the big-E had to penetrate it, plant an
explosive in the nucleus, and beat a hasty retreat.  The all-Vulcan
ship was destroyed by the amoeba.

calvin richter

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 22:30:47 GMT
From: aecom!mkaplan@caip.rutgers.edu (Marc Kaplan)
Subject: The Initial Voyages of the Starship Enterprise

> cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
> Vonda McIntyre's next Star Trek novel (all of which are excellent,
> by the way) will be "Star Trek - the Initial Voyage of the
> Starship Enterprise", or at least something close to that.
> Definitely will be about the beginnings of the Enterprise's fame
> (although I don't know if it's the first voyages of the ship, or
> the first voyages of Kirk et al.)

   For some reason, at the end of the most recent ST novel, DEMONS,
the publishers decided to wet our appetite with the first chapter or
so from "The Initial voyages of the Starship Enterprise". If I
remember correctly, it starts off with Kirk getting ready to take
his first command, with a crew that's already partially in place.
(He knows and is concerned about Spock). In fact there's a scene
where Spock bids an almost emotional and tearful goodbye to Captain
Pike.  This should all make very interesting reading and is
scheduled to come out in September.

Marc Kaplan
philabs!aecom!mkaplan
Box 218,1300 Morris Park Ave
AECOM, Bronx, New York 10461

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 86 02:07:09 GMT
From: wolf!billw@caip.rutgers.edu (Zee All-Knowing)
Subject: Re: Saavik's half-Romulan

>>Does anyone know of any full blooded Vulcans serving on Starships?
>
> In one episode or book (it's hard for me to remember since I read
> the Star Trek books long before I ever saw them), a starship
> manned only (mostly?) by vulcans called the Intrepid was
> destroyed.  The story involved a giant amoeba-like creature is
> consuming portions of the galaxy and the Intrepid was sent to
> investigate.  Spock "feels" the ship die shortly before the
> Enterprise is sent to investigate the Intrepid's disappearance.

Somewhere or other, I remember seeing a statement that the
Federation mans each starship with one race of beings, in order to
provide a comfortable atmosphere for the crew members. Crews may
consist of humans, Vulcans, Andorians, or what have you. They try to
keep the number of crew members not of the appropriate race to under
2%.

Bill Wisner
..ihnp4!jack!wolf!billw

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 20:05:10 GMT
From: cbosgd!rtm@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Murray)
Subject: Re: STTMP -- Who Liked It.

Well, we've said it before, but I agree.  STTMP was beautiful and
pleasing to the eye.  It met my expectations and soothed a hunger
for Star Trek that had been growing for years.

(And now, the sad story) You see, when I was a child, my parents
thought ST was silly and we didn't watch it.  I didn't even know it
was on.  I have a slight recollection of "The Tholian Web" while
staying with a babysitter ( I must have been 7 )

The area I live in did not carry ST in syndication and I NEVER saw
any of the episodes until I was . . . well that gets ahead of the
story.

At the age of eleven I saw the book ST 9 ( the novelized stories by
James Blish) and was captivated by the cover.  I read it and fell in
love I read all I could, and in my mind fashioned the perfect image.
I had still photos and pumped my friends who had actually SEEN the
series about details.

By the time the movie came out I was spell bound.

Randy Murray
cbosgd!rtm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 86 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #259
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 Aug 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 259

Today's Topics:

                 Books - John Norman,
                 Films - Howard the Duck (2 msgs) &
                         Silent Running & Flight of the Navigator &
                         The Fly,
                 Television - Billy Mumy (2 msgs) &
                         Lost in Space & More TV SF &
                         Get Smart & Jonny Quest,
                 Miscellaneous - Black holes &
                         Continenetal Drift & Self-aware Computers &
                         Supporting the Challenger

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:39:05 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: John Norman's beliefs

  JN is a philosophy teacher whose personal/professional point of
view provides the underpinnings for his books (including TIME SLAVE
and the non-fictional IMAGINATIVE SEX). In a nutshell, ethical
naturalism states that whatever is, is right, and anyone who tries
to change it is wrong; of course, this trips even faster if you
aren't careful about your choices of "what is"---e.g., JN really
does believe that women are naturally subservient creatures,
happiest when they don't attempt to act the dominant parts properly
belonging to men. His descriptions of the kajira ("slave-girl") have
much in common with descriptions of women in ]Gothic[s---uncertainty
and lack of control over one's future is seen as sexually exciting,
with the excitement focused on anything that looks like it will be
dominant and decisive.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 11:38:09 GMT
From: einode!simon@caip.rutgers.edu (Simon Kenyon)
Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie!



> Howard the Duck is the most worthless movie I have seen in a long
> time.  On an ABCDF scale, it gets an F-.  Do not see this movie.
> It is worse than boring..... [lots more]

sounds just like the comic book! can't wait to see it; if it ever
gets here :-( (obviously YOU never read the comic book)

Simon Kenyon
The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND
simon@einode.UUCP
+353-1-716255

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 08:06 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: HOWARD THE DUCK!!!
To: turtlevax!hamachi@caip.rutgers.edu

RE: "Howard the Duck is the most worthless movie I have seen in a
long time." and following review by Gordon Hamachi.

I LIKED HOWARD THE DUCK!!!

Don't let this guy (Gordon Hamachi) scare you away from a good
movie.  Now, I realize that this movie is not "good" in the same
sense that an "art film" is; it is not something to see if you are
expecting intellectual gratification. However, if you are looking
for an escapist movie with humor, a beautiful girl leading an
all-girl rock band, and a duck, then you should go see this movie.

The effects are very well done. In particular, the stop-motion
photography is the best I have ever seen. Admittedly the plot is not
something that can be called literature, but I didn't care: I was
laughing or chuckling through most of the movie. If you can't
suspend your disbelief a little with regard to Howard's "costume"
then I pity your poor crippled imagination.

I should point out that the movie owes alot to the original comic
books.  I mean more than just being a comic-book-in-movie-form in
terms of plot and intellectual value. In the comics, the duck looks
like a man in a duck suit. In the comics, Beverly has lots of
seemingly sappy lines. In the comics, there are lots of tremendously
bad puns.

I LIKED THIS MOVIE. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY CRITICS ARE GIVING THIS
MOVIE SUCH BAD REVIEWS. Perhaps I am just weird. On second thought,
I know I am weird, but this is no reason why you should not agree
with me after seeing this movie.

Hamachi's review is so vituperative that I wonder what other axe he
has to grind. I cannot imagine anyone disliking a movie as much as
he says he does. Besides, whatever happened to "if you can't say
something nice, don't say anything at all"?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 20:15:32 GMT
From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes:
>In 1970 I remember seeing a 'making of' show that gave details on
>the soon-to- be-released movie Silent Running.  The drones were
>played by teenagers who had no legs and had spent their life
>walking on their hands.  As a matter of interest, Duey was played
>by a pholidimide (sp?) child with almost no lower torso at all.
>Huey was played by a teenage boy who had lost his legs in a train
>accident and No.3 was, I think, played by a girl with a similar
>affliction.

At the last place I worked there was a guy also working there that
had played one of the drones.  His name was Mark (I forget his last
name).  He was a very friendly guy, and seemed to have adapted well
to his handicap.  His legs were amputated just below the waist.  He
seemed pretty strong in the upper body, and didn't need any help
from anyone.  He even drove a modified van to work, and transferred
himself to his wheelchair when he arrived.

I don't know which drone he played, but none of the above stories
seem to fit him.  I *thought* that he was a Vietnam vet and had lost
his legs over there, but I don't remember whether I was told that,
or if I just assumed it.  He died during an operation a little over
a year ago, and he was missed by everyone who worked there.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 12:07 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Movie FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR

I have seen this new Disney movie twice now, and enjoyed both times,
but I have some questions that I thought somebody out there in
netland might be able to answer.

Does anybody know what seens were shot in Norway?  In one of the
scenes some pretty big, rugged mountains appear (over what should be
central Florida).  Some of the interior shots could have been done
there.

I saw a trailer for the movie where the voice of MAX was different
than in the movie itself (which was credited to Paul Mall).  It
sounded to me like the voice of MCP from the movie TRON.  Does
anybody know who did the MCP voice?  Does anybody know if Paul Mall
is famous for doing anything else?

David S.  Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 86 18:11:22 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!victoro@nosc.ARPA (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: The Fly - The Remake

* Nano Review - Worth $3.50 - Just Bad Execution

The remake of The Fly suffers from a failed execution.  What could
have been an interesting re-thinking of the dangers of
mass-teleprotion is nothing more than an updating of the old story
with nifty computers and gruesome special effects.

This is a film I averted my eyes from the screen from.  And I'm not
THAT squeamish.  But this film takes the effects a bit to the
extreme.  If a sceen requires that a mans wrist be broken, better be
it that it is a compound fracture with the bone jutting out...

Geesch!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 11:22:39 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: LOST IN SPACE (Billy Mumy)

From:   tekecs!leonard  (Leonard Bottleman)

> The non-descript child actor was Billy Mummy (how can you forget a
> name like that?).

Easily. That isn't his name. His name is "Mumy" --- pronounced
"moo'-mee" --- not "Mummy".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 08:49 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Billy Mumy

Billy Mumy was also in the TZ movie; just a bit part (they guy at
the pinball machine, if I recall) in the remaking of "It's a GOOD
Life."  He said he had suggested that the remake be about Anthony
grown up so that he could recreate the part, but the producers
wouldn't go for it.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 17:03:47 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: LOST IN SPACE pilot

> Last, but not least, the music in the pilot wasn't the familiar
> "Johnny" Williams music, but Bernard Hermann's music from THE DAY
> THE EARTH STOOD STILL.

This music was used during the series as well, if I'm not mistaken.
Music was added as the series continued.

> The pilot's story elements ended up being parceled out to the
> first five episodes of the show.

This is validated by the fact that Dr. Smith was left on board the
Jupiter II with the robot, while the rest of the people went
exploring.  I could never understand how John Robinson could be so
cruel to leave Smith behind to freeze to death.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 86 17:39:46 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu (Burch Seymour)
Subject: SF on TV (Green Acres??)

Bill Weinberger - adds to a previous posting and I add to his

>> LOST IN SPACE - or as my father called it "Space Family
>> Robinson". This was one of my favorite shows when I was growing
>> up, in the mid-sixties.
> Mine, too.  Except now when I see it on re-reruns it seems
> incredibly stupid.  Don't underestimate the (lack of :-) ) taste
> of a 10-year-old.

I remember this show because it taught me frustration and contained
the first character I actually LOATHED. Dr Smith of course. I never
understood why, when he would sell out his friends at the drop of a
dime, they would continually come to his rescue. Even as a kid I
kept hoping he would be killed in some sort of nasty way.

> You don't remember Richard Basehart?!!!!  One of the all time
> great deep voices and currently the voice for the elder Micheal
> Knight (I never watch Knight Rider).

I don't think he does it anymore, I think he died a while back.

> IT'S ABOUT TIME - a one season (or two?) bomb about two (?)
> astronauts caught in a time warp and landing in the prehistoric
> ages.  The only thing I really remember is one of the cavemen was
> played by an actor from CAR 54 (ooh -- ooh) and somehow they were
> rescued from the past and brought a caveman to the present.

Also Imogene Coca, a true veteran of TV comedy.

Two more that I haven't seen mentioned (sorry if they were and I
missed it).

1) Science Fiction Theatre - A fifties (I think) show. I watched it
   in the 60's. I haven't seen it for years but I remember it as
   being pretty high quality stories. Has anyone seen it recently
   and care to comment?

2) Green Acres - No I'm not kidding. Oliver Douglas was clearly not
   in this universe, but in a close parallel one. For examples:
   a) Arnold Ziffle (a pig) could read, write, attended school with
      the "other kids", and was understood by everyone except
      Oliver.
   b) A neighborhood kid, Dinky Watson if memory serves, went to the
      moon. Actually the ending was ambiguous, but the viewer was
      left with the strong impression that the trip was made.
   c) Lisa commented in one show about the board games Scribble and
      Monotony, Oliver said "You mean Scrabble and Monopoly". When
      they went to Drucker's store later he stocked Scribble and
      Monotony.
   d) Mr Haney had ESP because he always showed up with whatever
      Mr Douglas needed.
   e) Hank Kimball could not have been human :-)

   I could go on, but even though it was not billed as SF I think
   one could safely include Green Acres as a humerous SF show.
   Anyone else care to comment????

Burch Seymour
....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:18:42 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

billw@felix.UUCP (Bill Weinberger) writes:
>MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. - Some of these shows are great, others are
>right in there with the bad science of LOST IN SPACE.  Not really
>SF all of the time, but certainly hi-tech for the sixties.  Most
>shows seem to have had a mad scientist out to conquer the world.
>"Open channel D."

If we're going to include this, we might as well include GET SMART.
Lots of high-tech wizardry, none of which works right.  One of the
funniest shows of all time.  "Not the cone of silence!"

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 08:46 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest

With all the discussion of SF on TV, I've been surprised to see no
mention of my first intro to SF, an animated series called "Johnny
Quest."  Johnny, his scientist Dad (Dr. Quest, of course--his
specialty seems to be everything), his tutor/bodyguard Race Bannon,
and Indian companion Hadji (sp?) explore the unknown, from invisible
monsters to mummies to ancient temples.

Anyone else remember it?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 86 17:52:15 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: black holes and Broadhead(Gateway)

From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
> He survives and everyone else is trapped in the blackhole.  By
> ejecting the other half of the ship enough momentum is transferred
> to the first half to get out of the event horizon.  Similar to the
> pair production example.

As I remember it none of the ship was within the event horizon at
the time that Broadhead kicks out. This is important, 'cos once
through the event horizon that's it mate, tough cookies, you're
dead.  Pair production also takes place outside the event horizon
and one half of the pair gets eaten by the BH by crossing the EH.
Once inside the Schwarzschild radius (aka Event Horizon) there is no
escape, this is the whole point of a black hole, it swallows all,
permanently (or at least until Hawking makes it evaporate or the
Heechee come along).

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 02:43:37 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Continental drift
To: milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>I hear that fishermen have brought up ancient implements from the
>bottom of the North Sea.  But I hadn't heard the more general
>story.
>
>Ah well, that's continental drift for you.

  Not really.  The North Sea was dry land in historical times not
because of continental drift, which is an extremely slow process,
but because the sea level was lower because more seawater was ice.
  Could the ancient implements have fallen from ships or sunken with
ships?  Coke bottles can be found at the deepest part of the ocean,
but that doesn't mean that it was dry land any time after Coke was
invented.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 17:14:51 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Self-aware computers

dtt@unirot.UUCP (David Temkin) writes:
>The use of computers is commendable, as it was in _Ender's Game_,
>although his introduction of a spontaneosly generated artificially
>intelligent being undermines the book's credibility if you know
>anything about computers.

I don't agree.  Spontaneous generation of artificial intelligence is
not believable given current programming practices and hardware, but
I would not rule out the possibility that this might happen in the
future.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 11:31:06 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: supporting CHALLENGER

>The following open letter was found at the end of the book Lythonde

This appears to be identical to the advertisement published in the
NEW YORK TIMES on Sunday 23 March, organized by C. J. Cherryh and
sponsored by a large fraction of this country's SF writers and fans
(and others---I recognized at least one name solely from his
authorship of one of my favorite board games). It has also appeared
in Cherryh's most recent books. Wasn't it also reproduced in this
digest around then?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 86 0911-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #260
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 Aug 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 260

Today's Topics:

               Books - Clancey & Dickinson & Norman,
               Films - Howard the Duck & SF on Video,
               Radio - SF on Radio,
               Television - Jonny Quest & Superman & 
                       Billy Mumy & Gigantor & Astro Boy,
               Miscellaneous - Baen Books (2 msgs) & Sexy SF &
                       SFL T-Shirt & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 18:30:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett)
Subject: Tom Clancy: Red Storm Rising

Tom Clancy's new novel "Red Storm Rising" is a recommended read.  I
guarantee that it will be on the bestseller lists for many months (a
couple of years?) in both hardcover and paperback.  It's about 650
pages long, the first 100 have some slow moments while all the
characters and plot threads get established.  After that, World War
III starts as the Soviet Union attacks NATO (as a diversionary
tactic: the real goal is securing oil fields in the Middle East
without causing a nuclear war).  Admittedly, I'm only about a third
of the way through the book, but it's cut very much from the same
vein as his first book "The Hunt For Red October". (If you haven't
read it, get it first: it's out in paperback; the new one is in
hardback.)

Everett Kaser
Hewlett-Packard Co.
Corvallis, OR

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 00:29:58 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: The Flight of Dragons by Peter Dickinson

The book "The Flight of Dragons" was written by Peter Dickinson and
illustrated by Wayne Anderson.  It was originally published in the
U.K. by Pierrot Publishing Ltd. in 1979; the American edition is
from Harper & Row, New York, also 1979.  It was printed in Italy and
typeset in - oh, never mind.  Anyway, it is not a novel, but a long
and somewhat light-hearted argument that dragons did in fact exist,
that they were hunted to extinction, and that some form of racial
memory preserves their potency as a symbol.  Their flight was due to
being largely sacks of hydrogen gas; this also accounts for their
flaming breath.  Their blood was somewhat acidic as part of the
process that formed the hydrogen, which somewhat explains Sigurd's
unusual preparations.  Various other recurring aspects of dragon
mythology are similarly "explained".

I think Dickinson probably did believe his thesis; I have some
serious doubts, but there is no doubt that the book is great fun.
Wayne Anderson also did a fine job with the illustrations.  If you
should see a copy, you would do well to buy it....

Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 07:12:34 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: John Norman's beliefs

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) writes:
> [...] JN really does believe that women are naturally subservient
>creatures, happiest when they don't attempt to act the dominant
>parts properly belonging to men.

   Would it be impolite to ask for your sources for this statement?
It seems to be basically impossible to libel a public figure, so you
are probably safe on legal grounds, but unless you can produce a
real source for this insulting statement your ethical position is
pretty poor...

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 17:17:38 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie!

What's the point of saying we need more reviewers who like movies,
Rob?  Do you mean people who like the medium of cinema?  If so, I
agree.  But if you mean people who are indiscriminate in their
tastes, then, sorry, no.  I want someone to tell me to save my
money.  BTW, I am very familiar with the Howard the Duck comic
(anyone want to buy a mint condition No. 1?), and I thought the film
was a disaster.  Not as bad as the live-action Spiderman TV series
of a few years back, but still a disaster.

RJS
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Aug 86 12:12:07-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II

Some more titles for your viewing "pleasure".........

  At the Earth's Core
  Alien Contamination

  Barbarian Queen  (female conan-clone/Lana Clarkson "stars")

  Creature from the Black Lagoon  (classic)
  City Limits  (road warrior clone)
  Cosmos - War of the Planets
  Clockwork Orange, A
  Countdown

  Doctor Who and the Daleks  (Peter Cushing (?))
  Doctor Who: Revenge of the Cybermen  (w/Tom Baker)
  Day It Came to Earth, The
  Day the Earth Caught Fire, The

  Exterminators of the Year 3000  (Franco-Italian road warrior clone)

  Futureworld
  Flight to Mars  (1951)
  Final Countdown
  Fire and Ice  (animation by Ralph Bakshi)

  Godzilla vs. Monster Zero  (1970)
  Godzilla vs. Mothra  (1964 ?)

  Invaders from Mars  (1953)

* Kronos  (1957)
  King Kong  (1933 w/Fay Wray)
  King Kong  (197? w/Jessica Lange)

  Logan's Run

  Master of the World
  Meteor
  Marooned
  Man Who Fell to Earth, The  (w/David Bowie)

  Planet of the Apes  (the whole series)
  Phase IV

  Rollerball
  Revenge of the Teenage Vixens from Outer Space  (no..I did
      not make this one up....available in September)

  Swamp Thing
* Soylent Green

  Trancers
  20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
* THEM !  (classic)
  Twilight Zone: The Movie

  Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea

  Women of the Prehistoric Planet
  Warrior and the Sorceress, The
  War of the Worlds
  When Worlds Collide
  Warriors of the Lost World  (another road warrior clone)
* Westworld

and....of course.....

  Plan 9 From Outer Space

Probably more later.

Chapman@SRI-STRIPE

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 86 16:23:31 EDT
From: "Darrell Ringler"  <dringler@ardec>
Subject: BBC Radio Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and The Prisoner
Subject: on WBAI.

    If you live in the New York area, you might be able to listen to
a broadcast of the original BBC Radio version of The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy on radio station WBAI 99.5FM. The first three
episodes were recently broadcast early on Saturday August 9th at 7AM
on a radio program called _Child's Play_. The next set of episodes
will be on Saturday the 16th and continue on for the rest of August
until the whole series is finished.  I don't know how many episodes
there are in the entire show. I also don't remember who the host of
this program is! I hope you can catch it!

    Preceeding that special show is the regular broadcast of _Hour
of the Wolf_ from 5AM to 7AM. Its a show about `science fiction,
fantasy and enchantment' hosted by Jim Freund. He has discussions
about all kinds of topics related to science fiction and fantasy
along with readings from books and music. I've enjoyed his program,
whenever I managed to wake up that early! [ :-) ]

   Last Sunday, August 10th there was also a show all about the
British series The Prisoner at 5AM during a program called
_Soundtrack_ on WBAI. They played music from the series and answered
listener's questions about the show. The guest on the program was
from the United States branch of the Prisoner Appreciation Society.
I'm afraid I don't remember his name.

     Unfortunately, I didn't hear anything about the HHGTTG or
Prisoner shows until very early saturday morning. I was too groggy
to stay awake and tape record the entire show on saturday morning!
Drat!

     Be Seeing You.

Darrell Ringler
ARPAnet: <dringler@ardec>
         <dringler@ardec.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 14:34:22 GMT
From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

David S. Cargo writes:
>JOHNNY QUEST
>Prime time animated series of the '60s.  Now coming out in comic
>book form.

First of all, it's Jonny Quest.  Second of all, it's coming back
this year!  I read an article about it a month or so ago.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 18:42:48 GMT
From: ihlpa!pkb@caip.rutgers.edu (Benson)
Subject: SF-TV programs

Ive been reading about the SF-TV programs for the last couple of
days.  No one has mentioned the original tv SUPERMAN with George
Reeves. ( GASP! HE WAS MY IDOL WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GIRL )

Or how about ONE STEP BEYOND ???????? Of couse if I remember right
they always claimed to true stories. Something about 'truth being
stranger than fiction'.

Pam

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 19:19:54 GMT
From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (errata)

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>Billy Mumy wasn't a household name, but he wasn't exactly
>"non-descript", either. He appeared in two TWILIGHT ZONE episodes
>(one of which, "It's a GOOD Life!", was remade in the movie, with
>Mumy making a cameo appearance). Mumy also has the distinction, if
>memory serves, of being the first male to be kissed on-screen by
>Bridget Bardot. :-)

I'm told that Billy Mumy is today a member of the comedy/music duo
known as Barnes & Barnes.  Whether he plays Art Barnes or his twin
brother Artie Barnes, I'm not sure.  (Barnes & Barnes are best known
for their song "Fish Heads," released on Rhino Records on a
fish-head-shaped record, and their banned-from-the-air-waves-
because-Spielberg-threatened-to-sue "I Had Sex with ET," later
re-recorded as "I Had Sex on T.V.")

Then again, I could be wrong.

Alex
mcnc!unc!melnick

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 17:28:52 GMT
From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Morrison)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

There is one show that I remember that no one I have ever mentioned
it to has ever heard of.  The show was called "Gigantor", and was
possibly the prototype of the robot shows, such as "Johnny Socko and
His Flying Robot".  I think it was Japanese, but I'm not sure.  Does
anyone remember ever seeing this show?  Is my memory fading in my
old age?  Is there a Great Pumpkin?

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 20:50:54 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

tewok@umcp-cs.UUCP (Wayne Morrison) writes:
>There is one show that I remember that no one I have ever mentioned
>it to has ever heard of.  The show was called "Gigantor", and was
>possibly the prototype of the robot shows, such as "Johnny Socko
>and His Flying Robot".  I think it was Japanese, but I'm not sure.
>Does anyone remember ever seeing this show?  Is my memory fading in
>my old age?  Is there a Great Pumpkin?

Of course, I remember!  Don't worry; your memory is intact.  But,
does anyone remember "Astro Boy"?

I don't.

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 19:01:45 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Baen Books vs. Bookstores

> This price is better than is offered to retailers, at least to the
> smaller specialty stores

But then DV and ACoH could order through the Baen Book Club instead.
They would still make money (and more of it, apparently) from those
people who buy books occasionally enough that they don't want to
have to order 10 at a time from a single publisher.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 22:46:56 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: The Doomsday Effect: A baaaaaaaad book from Baen

grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins)
> So what else is new?  Jim Baen is the shlock editor of the season.

I didn't say it was new.  I simply mentioned that the book was from
Baen so that the Baen-bashers out there could properly categorize
the book.  Had it been published by by anybody else, I might not
have mentioned the publisher.

> On the other hand, this presents a weak point where new authors
> may be able to get something published and get started in the
> field.  ACE books held this distinction for a long time, but at
> least Baen seems to treat his writers fairly.

I agree that this is good, as far as it goes.  But I'd really
druther he treat his *readers* fairly, as that is what I am one of.

> So if you see something with his name on it, take the time to read
> a little before you plunk down any money, and be prepared to
> ignore plenty of typos.

And here we have the main reason I mentioned it at all.  My normal
practice is to read quite a bit of the novel, the blurb, and
sometimes even the ending (I'm not spoiler-phobic) before buying.
This normally keeps me from falling for reprints, extremely bad
stuff, and the more obviously bogus books.  I felt it was my Sacred
Duty as a Concerned Reader of Quality Fiction to speak up, because
this one was subtle enough to pass my in-front-of-rack testing, but
bad enough to infuriate me to the point of being sorry I'd bought
it.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 00:06:11 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Sexy SF

Has anyone read Resnick's recent "Tales of the Velvet Comet" series?
A friend of mine recommended it, but - ahem - let's just say our
tastes in fiction frequently differ.  I'd be interested in hearing
other comments.

For sex-oriented science fiction, I can recommend without
reservation Spinrad's two latest novels, "The Void Captain's Tale"
and "Child of Fortune".  Spinrad handles not only sexual but
mystical themes with a grace and beauty unmatched in science fiction
or fantasy.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 02:07:30 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!cjn@caip.rutgers.edu (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: T shirt

Whatever happened to the sf-lovers t-shirt?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 20:08:30 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

     I have a (half-wriiten) story along these lines. Some mad
professor or other develops a time machine that can go no further
than a half-hour either way (for mathematical reasons that our hero
doesn't understand and so never appear in the story--SF plot device
#1233) Several days later, in the empty lab, there is the
characteristic blue light of the time-traveller, and a dark figure
appears with a pistol in hand. He places it in a desk drawer, and
exits the lab. Some twenty minutes later, one of the lab assistants
(a lovely young lass) enters arguing with a familiar dark figure.
Angrily, he pulls the gun out of the drawer, and shoots her dead. He
then goes to the time machine, and transports himself back a
half-hour. There is the characteristic blue light of the
time-traveller, and the dark figure appears with the pistol in his
hand. He places it in a desk drawer, and exits the lab.

     An hour later, the police arrive on the scene, and find the
body. There are plenty of suspects (the girl was an obnoxious bitch
who made herself a lot of enemies) but the murder weapon is
untraceable. Our hero, a police detective, must find the killer, and
a murder weapon which does not logically exist!

     I have plenty of holes to iron out, of course (such as, who
loads the pistol?) but that, avoid the character development, was
the base of the plot. The possibilities of a nonexistent item
appearing within a time loop though, are staggering. What else could
you do with this? Am I the only one to have ever thought of such a
thing?

UUCP:   ...wanginst!ulowell!rickheit
USnail: Erich Rickheit
        85 Gershom Ave, #2
        Lowell, MA 01854
Phone:  (617) 453-1753

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 86 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #261
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 Aug 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 261

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Rick Brant & Best of 1986,
                 Films - Flight of the Navigator & The Fly,
                 Television - Doctor Who & More SF TV (3 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & Wagner &
                         Baen Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 17:58:38 GMT
From: ur-cvsvax!smg@caip.rutgers.edu (Susan Garnsey)
Subject: Rick Brant books (was Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest)

I never saw Johnny Quest, but the description sure sounds like my
first intro to SF, the series of Rick Brant books.  Rick, his
scientist dad (head of a scientific foundation on Spindrift Island
with specialists in just about everything), his friend/ex-Marine
Scotty, and their occasional Indian companion (?name?) explore the
unknown, from caves in Tibet to the bottom of the Pacific to
Egyptian pyramids to earth orbit.  Anybody else remember these?
Better yet, anyone have copies they'd like to sell?  I've been
keeping my eye out for used copies for years, but have yet to find
them anywhere.

Susan Garnsey
....allegra!rochester!ur-cvsvax!smg

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 17:21:01 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Best of early 1986?

Well, nothing really stands out for me from early 1986, but I know a
book that is *about* to come out which should be dynamite.  It's
called *BARKING DOGS* by Terence M. Green (Bluejay, October).  The
F&SF novella that it's expanded from was brilliant.  If the
book-length version is even half as good I think we're talking
Nebula contender.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 86 05:09:17 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Movie FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR

From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
>Does anybody know what seens were shot in Norway?

Hard to say, probably lots of the interiors, and probably because of
some funny deal.  Nothing in the film requires a trip to Norway, but
then nothing in Star Wars needed to be shot in England, either.

>I saw a trailer for the movie where the voice of MAX was different
>than in the movie itself (which was credited to Paul Mall).  It
>sounded to me like the voice of MCP from the movie TRON.  Does
>anybody know who did the MCP voice?  Does anybody know if Paul Mall
>is famous for doing anything else?

It says "Paul Mall" in the credits, but that's just a joke, I think.
It's actually Paul Rubens (or however you spell it) who is better
known to the world as his character "Pee-Wee Herman."

I greatly disliked it when the computer turned into Pee-Wee Herman
(aside from the fact that the boy, being from 1978, would have no
memory of such a character.)

I felt the first half of this movie was quite good, reasonably done
SF.  The second half degenerated into cute voices, gags, cute
creatures and a stupid, sappy ending.  Much what you expect from
Disney today, but not what he used to give us when he was alive.  I
don't mind cute, but this stuff was inserted for no other purpose
than the cheap laugh, and took up too much of the latter half of the
film.

SPOILER:

What I'm really sick of is all the stories that spend all day
telling you how, "we can't go back in time, it's too dangerous"
until they do it anyway and all is well.  I guess kids watching this
movie don't think about how the other characters in the film had
their whole lives erased just so the kid wouldn't have to adjust,
but it sure bothered me.  Disney movies were supposed to be
simulating to children without insulting adults.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 86 14:40:36 GMT
From: unirot!dtt@caip.rutgers.edu (David Temkin)
Subject: The Fly

This movie has to be one of the most disgusting films ever made.
Not that I didn't like it, but it was indisputably revolting -- LOTS
of slime, blood, and so on.  But the special effects were great (if
you can bear to watch them :-) ), the suspense was good, and the
acting was credible.  Jeff Goldblum does a great job in the title
role -- his gestures and mannerisms change as he is transmogrified
into a fly.  The problem with the film, I thought, is that while
trying to be a gross-them-out horror flick, it also tries to provide
humor and a love-triangle subplot.  This was too much for the
filmakers to pull off properly, but it's still a good movie.  It
even has a few funny moments.  And if you though Aliens was
disgusting....

One thing bothers me about the plot. I had just finished reading
Greg Bear's Blood Music when I went to see the movie, so perhaps
this is not on target. But it seemed to me that a lot of The Fly
"borrowed" from this book (or perhaps the book borrowed from the
original Fly, which I did not see). Specifically, the main character
is supposed to be a nerdy scientist. He does something to his genes.
His sex life, physical condition, etc. improve radically. Then the
changes start to come. His body begins to change into something
unrecognizable. From there on the two plots diverge, but there is a
remarkable similarity.  Or is this just a standard sf/horror thing
to do?

David Temkin    ...caip!unirot!dtt
             or ...caip!topaz!unipress!dt (better)

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1986, 14:51:16 EDT
From: "Brent T. Hailpern"  <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Dr. Who

For your information...

WEDW (Ch. 49, Fairfield, CT) has started rebroadcasting Dr. Who from
the first episode (An Unearthly Child) with Dr. Who #1 (Hartnell?).
The show is broadcast 6pm and 11pm and is available on cable in some
parts of Westchester County, NY.

Brent
bth@ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 86 19:27:55 GMT
From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan)
Subject: re: SF-TV programs

I remember a few that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

THE INVISIBLE MAN (?)
David McCallum (of Man from UNCLE fame) was a scientist who somehow
irradiated himself (isn't that how it usually works? :-)) into
permanent invisibilty.  He had to wear a rubber mask, gloves, etc.
to be seen.  His wife was played by Melinda Fee, but I don't
remember the characters' names.  This didn't last too long, but I
kind-of liked it.

?
Yet another invisible man type of story.  The "hero" was played by
Ben Murphy, and he wore a watch which controlled his invisibility
(he could only be invisible for 15 min. a day).  This was a movie,
which was turned into a series which didn't last too long.

There were also a few other live-action Saturday Morning SF type
shows that I recall that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

There were two shows using the same special effects which I always
mix together.  In one of the two shows (SPACE ACADEMY?), James
Doohan (Scotty of ST, of course) played the commander of a school
set in a mobile asteroid.  The other (JASON AND THE ASTRONAUTS?
JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS?) was like a serial, each episode ending
with a cliff-hanger (like the Danger Island segments of the Banana
Splits Show, but that's another net).  The lead character (Jason)
and his sidekicks (I think a robot peepo was there too, or maybe
peepo was in the space academy one?) were always running into this
same evil space pirate from another galaxy with a high-tech patch
over one eye.

EARTH 2?  ARK 2? (not the movie Earth 2 but maybe based on it?)  A
group of people in a huge enclosed mobile laboratory/motel/
hospital/etc., complete with detachable dune-buggy run around post
WW-III earth helping people and trying to restore civilization
again.  I think a chimpanzee (talking? or at least able to
understand english?) went with them.

Can't forget BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and its sequel GALACTICA 84 (or
whatever year) and BUCK ROGERS IN THE TWENTY FIFTH CENTURY.  On
second thought... :-)

Also there were super-hero type shows which may not be appropriate
for this net, so I'll just title them and wait for the flames - THE
INCREDIBLE HULK, SPIDER MAN, WONDER WOMAN (I'll stop here so as not
to provoke too much nastiness :-))

Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty sure
I never watched it.  The opening was animated, and there was a
gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening is:

   It's about time
   It's about space
   It's about men from the human race

Daniel Soussan at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville IL
Flames to: ...!ihnp4!ihlpf!soussan     (maybe)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 18:16:30 GMT
From: ihlpa!pkb@caip.rutgers.edu (Benson)
Subject: SF-TV programs



How about MY FAVORITE MARTIAN. It had Ray Walston (??) as the
Martian.  I loved it when he made the little antennas come up and
disappeared.  Bill Bixby was also in it as the earthling trying to
hide the Martian until he could fix his space ship. It seems to me
Bill Bixby hid the space ship in the garage and lived in an
apartment above the garage.  He also had trouble with a busybody
landlady.

No one has mentioned BEWITCHED (love that nose) or I DREAM OF GENIE
(when Larry Hagman was still a nice guy).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 15:01:53 GMT
From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

   One that just popped back into foreground: LAND OF THE GIANTS (or
something close).  This intercontinental flight - sort of like the
shuttle, it was a space flight - goes through some vision-obscuring
phenomenon and winds up landing on a place like Earth but not quite
Earth.  And they are about six inches tall in the eyes of the new
place's populace.  Of course, the government of this place wants
them captured and "studied" (horrors!).  So they have to avoid
capture, they have to get the ship working again, they have to
survive in the great (big) outdoors.

Karen Christenson
...!dartvax!chelsea

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 86 23:31:34 GMT
From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH
Subject: Time Travel or  If only they had

TIME TRAVEL:

The talk of traveling back in time and depositing some futuristic
device reminds me of a discussion I had with a bunch of friends oone
day long ago in college.

What weapon/device would change the course of a historical battle
engagement or important incident.

   Motorcycle would be nice for that runner in the Ancient Greek
   battle of Marathon who ran all the way to Athens to say victory
   and died.

   Claymore mines at the Battle of the Alamo for the Texans of
   course.

   A bulletproof vest for Stonewall Jackson - a good tactician.

   No Smoking sign on the Hindenburg... yea yea I'm sick..

   A bulletproof Mercedes for Archduke Ferdinand (The man who got
   WWI started by being assassinated)

   A AWACS for the Americans at Pearl Harbor in 1941 or the Nimitz
   (Hahahahaha).

   Armored cars for the Charge of the Light Brigade.

   Electric blankets and footies and generators for Napolean for the
   March to Russia .... or Snow moblies for the way back.

   Fire engines at the Burning of Rome for Nero

I can not think of anything else ..  how about what can the rest of
the reader's think of?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 23:21:49 GMT
From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH
Subject: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel

All this interest in time travel prompts me to comment on the
subject.  It was said that if you take a gold coin and send it
forward in time when you reach that point in time you will have two
coins.  Well I think you would only have one coin.

If the gold coin that is lying on your desk is time travelled to the
future say one day you could no longer find it until the next day.

***warning --- oblique thought

HMMM... I wonder if one of a pair of sock can time travel ..

**** main stream

If I can travel back in time with my IBM PC and printer in hand to
say the year 1200 what wonders I could work.

I really could not work any wonders .. one I don't have a power
source for my computer ; two , I would not be able to communicate to
anyone.. since they believe I am the DEVIL or one of his daemons
(snicker)

But, I was a knowledgable person .. say a twentieth cenrtury
Renainassance (sic) man or jack of all trades who knew my hard
sciences - physics, chemistry, etc - I could travel back in time to
a remote area say Scandinavia around 850 AD and build the twentieth
century there... things would go great as long as I am alive and
have power over the people .. in one shape or another.

ANOTHER THOUGHT OF TIME TRAVEL:

MAYBE when one travels back in time ..  since supposedly the past is
immutable we would arrive in the past as non-physical coporal beings
-- similar to ghosts - but we could just spectate the events.

MAYBE If one travels to the future one goes nowhere since the future
has not been determined.

MAYBE when one travel through time one starts a new timeline .

John Hardesty

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 86 11:42 EST
From: WOTAN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Of Wagnerian Rings

Alastair Milne writes:
> (I have never seen a satisfactory explanation of how the Nibelung,
> from whom the Ring had already been taken, retained sufficient
> power to cause the curse.)

    My explanation is that Alberich the Ring-forger is a different
creature from Alberich the Rhine-maiden chaser: bitter, sinister and
powerful.  When the Rhine-maidens reveal the Rhine-gold secret, they
say "Only he who has renounced love ... will know the magic/spell
that will make a ring out of the gold".  I think that much more than
the art of gold-smithying was included in that knowledge; Alberich
was able to instruct Mime to forge the Tarnhelm for instance.  Also,
from that point and throughout the whole Ring Cycle, Alberich is
referred to as a sinister force (and not, for instance, "that runt
Alby" :-)) Erda, in her prophesy to Wotan (as related in Die
Walkuere) talks of "the dark enemy of love".  Wotan says that
Alberich was able to coerce (maybe with whatever was left to him of
his powers, maybe with gold) a woman to bear him a son, Hagen.
Also, Wotan is well aware that, were Alberich to get hold of the
Ring, he would turn Walhall's heroes against the Gods; but Wotan
still has the Valkyries bring him slain heroes.  My guess is that he
still needs them to defend himself (maybe to scare enemies away, as
todays wise leaders try to by stockpiling nuclear weapons in their
hallowed castles :-))
    Well, I'm aware that some of this stuff is quite off the mark...
but it will do to start a discussion.  After all, the Ring may not
be SF but it certainly is fantasy... I don't think it matters it
made its first appearance in Bayreuth and not in the form of 4 $3.25
paper- backs :-)

george barbanis

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 86 16:18:55 GMT
From: gouvea@h-sc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea)
Subject: Re: Baen books

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>Here Baen books has made a remarkable offer to the regular book
>reader.  "I'm offering you the same bulk deals I give to dealers.
>Doesn't matter who you are, buy ten books, get a deal."
>
>Remarkably fair of them.  I am surprised to see people jump to the
>defence of the retailing establishment at the expense of the book
>customer.

The point is that we depend on the booksellers for access to a large
variety of books.  I would certainly not want to deal individually
with all the publishers whose books I have bought or will buy---to
say nothing of those books one discovers in a bookstore without ever
having heard of.  As a reader, I want healthy booksellers around, as
many of them as possible, and preferably not affiliated to big
national chains.

A second related point is that there is some suspicion that the Baen
plan also hurts writers.  There again, the reader is the one that
eventually gets hurt, when the writers he or she likes go bankrupt,
change publishers, give up writing, etc., and when new writers are
pushed away.

Fernando Gouvea
gouvea%h-sc4@HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Aug 86 1139-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #262
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 262

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Clancy & Myers & Resnick &
                         Rick Brant & Star Trek,
                 Films - Movies on Video & The Princess Bride &
                         Howard the Duck (2 msgs),
                 Television - Land of the Lost & 
                         More SF TV (3 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) & 
                         SF in the Soviet Union &
                         SF-Lovers Party at Worldcon & 
                         SF-Lovers T-Shirts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 16:33:04 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: Tom Clancy: Red Storm Rising

> Tom Clancy's new novel "Red Storm Rising" is a recommended read.
> It's cut very much from the same vein as his first book "The Hunt
> For Red October". (If you haven't read it, get it first: it's out
> in paperback; the new one is in hardback.)

I bought Red Storm Rising the weekend of the 9th and only managed to
get through the first 150 pages that weekend.  This Saturday I
managed to get through the next 500 pages in one (extended) sitting.
It's that good.  Also, B.Dalton/Waldenbooks is selling it for
$12.95, which is not bad, since the paperback will probably be $5.95
when it comes out a year from now.

S. Luke Jones (...ihnp4!mtung!slj)
AT&T Information Systems, Middletown, NJ, USA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 86 01:06:04 GMT
From: sjc@purdue.edu (Steve J Chapin)
Subject: reference from Myers' _Silverlock_

My wife and I have both recently read _Silverlock_, and of course we
spent quite a bit of time picking out all the references.  One that
I couldn't place is the reference to the talking horses and the
Yahoos.  Could anyone out there send me mail and clear up the
matter?

Thanks,

Steve Chapin
ARPA:  sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu
UUCP:  ...!purdue!sjc

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 17:21:14 GMT
From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Tales of the Velvet Comet

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Has anyone read Resnick's recent "Tales of the Velvet Comet"
>series?  A friend of mine recommended it, but - ahem - let's just
>say our tastes in fiction frequently differ.  I'd be interested in
>hearing other comments.

I read the first Velvet Comic and found it what I call "mentally
transparent".  My eyes ran over the words and I turned the pages and
when it was done, I picked up a different book because I wanted to
read something.  I find this phenomenon interesting when it happens.
I was never actively bored or turned off (and certainly not turned
on); it just didn't affect me in any way.

To be less personal (but still subjective, of course), the story was
predictable, the characters bland, and the setting far more mundane
than you think an orbiting brothel would be.  Yes, there is some
amount of sex.  I don't remember if it was explicit or not.  That
should tell you something.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 15:01:11 GMT
From: cfa!mink@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Mink)
Subject: Re: Rick Brant books (was Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest)

From Susan Garnsey <314@ur-cvsvax.UUCP>:
> I never saw Johnny Quest, but the description sure sounds like my
> first intro to SF, the series of Rick Brant books.  Rick, his
> scientist dad (head of a scientific foundation on Spindrift Island
> with specialists in just about everything), his friend/ex-Marine
> Scotty, and their occasional Indian companion (?name?) explore the
> unknown, from caves in Tibet to the bottom of the Pacific to
> Egyptian pyramids to earth orbit.  Anybody else remember these?
> Better yet, anyone have copies they'd like to sell?  I've been
> keeping my eye out for used copies for years, but have yet to find
> them anywhere.

I was a Rick Brant fan, too; I have 10 or 12 of the books.  I
started reading them in junior high school, where there was a
complete set, at least up to that time.  The MIT Science Fiction
Society has a complete set up to the last one, published in 1971 or
so.  There was one computer scientist in the Spindrift Foundation,
and several of the books use state-of-the-art (at the time they were
written--mid-50's) AI concepts.  I watched a few episodes of Johnny
Quest, but the plots were too simple and the detailed backgrounds of
the books just weren't there.  I used to have a ritual of reading
through the whole series once a year; Tom Swift and the Hardy Boys,
the more widely read Grossett & Dunlap series for boys never held up
to re-reading as well.

Doug Mink
{seismo|ihnp4}!harvard!cfa!mink
mink%cfa.UUCP@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Aug 86 11:20:48-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek

In the novelization of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan the complete
background of Saavik is covered including her parentage (the exact
details escape me at this moment but I believe her Vulcan mother was
raped by a Romulan).

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Aug 86 11:20:48-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: VIDEO MOVIES

Re: The list of movies I posted.  I realize that the original
request was for recommended movies but as I mentioned quality exists
with the individual.  Since the question still exists on what are
recommended films what I am offering to do is to compile a ratings
scheme based on viewer response.  If you have seen any of the films
I have listed then rate the film from 1 to 5 with 5 being "must see"
and 1 as "skip it".  I will from time-to-time post the latest
(average) rating score.  I am still compiling more film listings and
will publish them soon.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1986 17:38:13 PDT
Subject: Princess Bride Film
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

From the August 17th L.A. Times Calendar section;

Films beginning production this week:

The Princess Bride (Buttercup Films Ltd.) Shooting in London. A
satirical swashbuckling story of romance and adventure from the
novel by William Goldman. Producer Andrew Scheinman, Director Rob
Reiner, Screenwriter Goldman (all right!). Stars Cary Elwes, Cary
Sarandon, Christopher Guest, Wallace Shawn, Mandy Patinkin, Robin
Wright, and Andre the Giant (a wrestler I think).  Distributor and
release date undetermined.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 14:56:33 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: HOWARD THE DUCK!!!

If you're going to see this movie, you better do so quickly. It is
not even showing in any movies in the NY area that I could find
listed in the papers.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

From: watnot!jafischer@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Fischer)
Subject: Re: Howard the (Lame) Duck--Avoid This Crummy Movie!
Date: 18 Aug 86 13:14:27 GMT

francois@yale-cheops.UUCP (Charles B. Francois) writes:
>wheel@utastro.UUCP (unthinkingly) writes:
>>Sheesh.  We need more reviewers who =LIKE= movies.
>
>Oh?  I'd settle for better movies.

No, I agree with Sheesh there.  This type of movie is obviously made
for a certain "type" of movie audience.  From the list of other
"terrible" (in your opinion) movies that you would compare HTD to,
it's obvious that it's this overall type of movie that you can't
stand, and therefore it's downright silly for you to post such a
blazingly harsh review of it.  You should have said, "I hated this
movie.  Despised it, even.  But I generally hate this type of movie,
and some people don't.  So you may not hate it so much."  Obviously,
some people have enjoyed the movie.  I haven't even SEEN it yet, but
I can tell that it's the kind of mindless fun that I probably would
enjoy, so I got as incensed as Sheesh did about that review.  Oops,
I've obviously used the word "obviously" too much.

Jonathan

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 86 21:48:13 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

Not to get redundant, But that xould mean that there are 2 Hollys &
2 Wills.
     After about a season or 2, the 3 escape due to a paradox and
the gateway of time. Anyway, as the 3 left, the same 3 came in
(hence the paradox). Anyway, later on, something happens to the
father, & the father's brother goes through the mists to join the 2
kids. So, if those 3 left, there would be 2 of each of the kids. (I
don't quite know where father #2 ended up, somewhere in time since
the Uncle had to get in).

John Langbein

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 86 22:59:40 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Sci-Fi TV (again)

I just started reading this section, but I noticed no mention of the
longest running sci-fi show in the discussion on TV Sci-Fi. How
about Doctor Who?
     If we want to talk animated, there's always The Jetsons.
     Also, I remember many many years back a Saturday morning show
called Dr. Shrinker which had Billy Barty as a Mad Doctor's
assistant.  This Mad doctor shrank people (Hence the name)
     There is also The Lost Saucer which had Jim Neighbors & Ruth
Buzzi as a couple of Robots. They traveled through time & space in a
flying saucer with 2 earth companions (a kid & his baby sitter)& a
thing called a Dorse (Half horse, half dog).
     What about that lousy show called V? (Please don't criticize my
opinion)
     Then there is the Twilight Zone (Funny that this was left out
with episodes like a visit to a small planet or something like
that).
     How about SOAP? Remember that show, with Richard Mulligan as
Burt Cambell who thought he could turn invisible? He was abducted by
a spaceship & his wife did it with an alien that was made to look
like Burt?
     Of course, Benson (a spin-off from SOAP) brought Sci-Fi in on
one episode (actually two if you want the appearance of Jessica's
ghost to count).
     How about SEEING THINGS? This is probably my favorite detective
show. The show is from Canada and is about this newspaper reporter
that has the ability to see in the past what took place when he is
near an object that was involved with the crime. Is that show still
running in Canada (meaning New episodes)?
     One last Animated show. The Flintstones became partially Sci-Fi
with the addition of the character Gazoo(?).

John Langbein

------------------------------

From: bigbang!bam@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 13:47:19 pdt
Subject: Lost in space

Did I miss something when Lost in Space and Time Tunnel were
cancelled?

As far as I can recall, both groups, the Robinsons and the two time
travellers never returned.  Did either of those shows end cleanly?

Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin production}
ever get discovered/killed/deported??  Or is David Jansen still out
there warning people about the dangers of Cerebral Hemorrage??

Bret Marquis
bigbang!bam@nosc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 15:06:38 GMT
From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher)
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again)

Also, nobody's mentioned Sixth Sense with David Hartman; Mission:
Impossible with a cast of dozens; Night Gallery, Serling's Twilight
Zone clone; Night Stalker with Darrin McGavin.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86 18:58:22 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Sending material through time

This was proposed in a science fiction story I read a while back (I
forget title and author). A scientist invented a time machine and
decided to send a chemistry book back to the ancient Greeks. He
succeeded. However, the man he had hired to translate the chemistry
book only translated the parts of the book that the ancient Greeks
knew (basic atomic structure, etc.)

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 06:11:43 GMT
From: ism780c!jim@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Balter)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes:
>     I have plenty of holes to iron out, of course (such as, who
>loads the pistol?) but that, avoid the character development, was
>the base of the plot. The possibilities of a nonexistant item
>appearing within a time loop though, are staggering. What else
>could you do with this? Am I the only one to have ever thought of
>such a thing?

I think Heinlein has been there before you.  Consider the
character(s) in "All You Zombies" who is his/her own parents, and
who drafts himself into the Time Service.  And while the dictionary
in "By His Bootstraps" does not appear via a time loop, the
information in it does.

Your mechanism strikes me strongly as Deus Ex Machina, unless you
can explain why the character should expect to find a gun in the
drawer when he opens it to shoot his victim, since he has not yet
planted the gun at that point, nor why he should expect the drawer
to be empty when he goes back to plant the gun; there is no way for
him to know that his action was the cause of the gun being there.

Heinlein's treatment of the dictionary is much more subtle.  And in
both his classic stories, the character never expects any of what
happens, until he reaches a point where he already knows that it was
his own future actions that set things into motion, and acts
accordingly.

Jim Balter ({sdcrdcf!ism780c,ima}!jim)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 86 00:37:44 GMT
From: uvacs!mac@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Colvin)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL in the Soviet Union

>they decide it wasn't and returned it.  What was notable was that
>their immediate reaction to something unknown was, "It is
>forbidden"--just like the Orwellian "Everything not required is
>forbidden."  Then I was called in.

Soviet Customs types like to confiscate things for their personal
use.  He was probably a Science Fiction Fan.  The "Forbidden" here
isn't necessary policy, just a good line for the tourists.

------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1986, 01:29:44 EDT
From: "Nicholas J. Simicich"  <NJS@ibm.com>
Subject: SF-Lovers Party.

I'm going to be holding the Sf-Lovers party at Worldcon this year.
It will be on Sunday night, starting at 8:30.  I will have others
sharing my room, as I usually do, and they didn't really mind me
inviting everyone on the network to a party, but they insisted on a
few groundrules:

NO SMOKING.  Closed party.  Lots of beer.  Last call around 1:30,
through by 2:00.

I kicked it around, and decided why not.  I met some of you at
Boskone, and now I'll get to meet more of you.  You'll be able to
recognize me easily, as I'll be the one just inside the door,
dressed in sackcloth, calling: Alms! Alms!

oc.trei@cu20b.columbia.edu will continue to handle the mailing list.
I plan to bring an IBM Portable (almost) PC and a modem, as well as
a printer. Perhaps I should also bring the last couple of months of
SF-Lovers. Someone else will have to bring the ID that we can use to
log on remotely, if we want to put in a convention report.

Look for the @ party notices.  I expect to be in the Hilton.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 21 Aug 1986 20:07-EDT
From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Subject: What ever happened to the SF-LOVERS T-shirt

Well, you {fnord} see, the printing company took {fnord} a lot
longer to {fnord} get them made up then had been promised. I am
{fnord} expecting them to {fnord} arrive in the next few days, but
this obviously leaves no time {fnord} to mail them out before
{fnord} Atlanta. Therefore {fnord}:

(IF (AND "The shirts arrive before Atlanta"
         "I have time to pack them")
    THEN
    (PROGN
       (BRING-ALL-SHIRTS-TO-WORLDCON)
       (MAIL-LEFTOVERS))
     ELSE
     (MAIL-ALL-SHIRTS-AFTER-WORLDCON))

Sorry about this folks, but I did send them in to the printers with
plenty of time to spare... Look for me at Worldcon, I'll be (I
HOPE!) wearing the new SFL t-shirt...

James Turner
ARPA  ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
UUCP {decvax|sri-unix|ima|linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn
MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Aug 86 1208-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #263
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 263

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Jackson,
                 Films - Silent Running & The Fly &
                         Forbidden Planet,
                 Television - Lost in Space & Star Trek,
                 Miscellaneous - Baen Books & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 86 11:52:49 GMT
From: utah-gr!donn@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Shirley Jackson (re: Lest we forget)

I'm glad to see that someone has brought up Shirley Jackson.  I've
just recently discovered her work, and I'm having a sugar-bowl of
fun reading it.  It amazes me that so few other people seem to have
heard of her; I only went to look for her name in the bookstore when
I read an unexpectedly effusive appreciation of her by Stephen
King...  Even then it took several years before I first saw copies
of THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE and WE HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE CASTLE
on the shelves.  Penguin appears to be publishing Jackson's novels
in paperback -- if you see them, grab them: you may never have
another chance.  (It's interesting that Penguin printed these books
in the States instead of the UK; it's amusing too to read their
protection notice, which begins, 'Except in the United States of
America, this book is sold subject to the condition etc.'  Doesn't
this country have some of the strangest publishing laws in the
world?)

HILL HOUSE is a ghost story which sneakily preys on your
preconceptions of ghost stories before shaking them down.  Four
people gather to challenge a haunted house which has been the scene
of several fatal accidents and suicides over the years, a house
which has driven away every previous visitor within days of their
arrival.  Just another haunted house story, right?  It becomes
apparent after the four arrive, however, that the things which go
bump in the night are perhaps the least of their worries...  I was
enchanted with the characters in this story, all of whom are vivid
and most of whom display a charm which is so exquisitely rare that
they kept me smiling for joy on almost every page.  Be aware,
however, that this is a terribly intellectual ghost story and hardly
any blood is spilled and hardly anyone is killed...  Despite this,
the book kept me on the edge of my chair (well, okay, my comfy
couch) throughout, although I had to learn to be very suspicious of
plot turns which seem to be anticlimaxes.  This book is a classic.

CASTLE is a comedy about ghosts; it makes a nice complement to HILL
HOUSE.  Merricat, Constance and Uncle Julian are the only survivors
of an arsenic-laced meal which killed all the other members of the
Blackwood house.  Constance was acquitted of the murders in a
sensational trial, and now the three live quietly by themselves in
the 'castle' in the forest beyond the village.  But Merricat has a
terrible foreboding that trouble is coming again...  There is a
certain amount of suspense in this novel as you try to decide who
really done it, but in terms of the plot this is completely
irrelevant; a little bit of misdirection which left me laughing
helplessly as I turned the last pages.  I have to disagree with
Richard Bleiler's characterization of Jackson's themes as 'cruelty,
the unknown, and strangeness' -- the love affair in CASTLE will, er,
haunt you a long time.  I'll leave you with a little excerpt of Mary
Catherine's trip to her hiding place with Jonas the cat, and hope
that you'll get some of the flavor:

   When I left the long field I went between the four apple trees we
   called our orchard, and along the path toward the creek.  My box
   of silver dollars buried by the creek was safe.  Near the creek,
   well hidden, was one of my hiding places, which I had made
   carefully and used often.  I had torn away two or three low
   bushes and smoothed the ground; all around were more bushes and
   tree branches, and the entrance was covered by a branch which
   almost touched the ground.  It was not really necessary to be so
   secret, since no one ever came looking for me here, but I liked
   to lie inside with Jonas and know that I could never be found.  I
   used leaves and branches for a bed, and Constance had given me a
   blanket.  The trees around and overhead were so thick that it was
   always dry inside and on Sunday morning I lay there with Jonas,
   listening to his stories.  All cat stories start with the
   statement: 'My mother, who was the first cat, told me this,' and
   I lay with my head close to Jonas and listened.  There was no
   change coming, I thought here, only spring; I was wrong to be so
   frightened.  The days would get warmer, and Uncle Julian would
   sit in the sun, and Constance would laugh when she worked in the
   garden, and it would always be the same.  Jonas went on and on
   ('And then we sang!  And then we sang!') and the leaves moved
   overhead and it would always be the same.

Damn, I wish I could write like that,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 05:44:43 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes from)

steve@bambi.UUCP (Steve Miller) writes:
>Sort of a silly title, really.  After all, "In space, no one
>can hear >[your engines]."

It seems to me I read that the original idea for the film was
supposed to be a tense human vs. aliens film.  It was supposed to be
a science fiction version of RUN SILENT RUN DEEP.  The concept of
the film changed (and not for the better) but the kept the title.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 05:12:27 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE FLY

                              THE FLY
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  The remake of THE FLY is more for fans
     of David Cronenberg films than for fans of the original
     story.  In several ways the new film is an improvement, but
     overall the original is still a much better film.  Don't see
     this film after you eat.

     Earlier this summer we saw the release of INVADERS FROM MARS.
In my review I had said that I had missed seeing the original when I
was the proper age to enjoy it.  I fared somewhat better with the
original THE FLY.  I was eight years old when I saw the original at
a drive-in.  I was too young to be objective about the
scientifically improbable plot.  The script was spell-binding to an
8-year-old--not surprising since it was written by James Clavell,
who went on to write novels like SHOGUN and NOBLE HOUSE.  It seemed
to me that Andre Delambre had everything anyone could ever want and
lost it all in a moment of carelessness--a tragedy more affecting
than anything Sophocles ever wrote.  It was with a combination of
expectation and fear that I heard that David Cronenberg--who made
films like SCANNERS and DEAD ZONE--was going to remake one of my
favorite films.

     Well, apparently the original story of THE FLY was put on a
matter transmitter with Cronenberg and what came out was part THE
FLY and part Cronenberg.  Cronenberg has always been fascinated with
the idea of having physical deformity echo emotional state.  Since
the fusion of man and fly affects both the mind and the body, it is
obvious why this project appealed to him.  Unlike the original, the
change in the remake is gradual and the audience gets a chance to
see the thought processes as a human gradually transforms into an
amalgam of human and insect.  This is a theme only hinted at in the
original film--Andre says that his new brain is telling him to do
strange things--but it becomes one of the main virtues of the
remake.

     The story, if you missed the original and haven't figured it
out by now, has a scientist (Seth Brundle, played by Jeff Goldblum)
go through a matter transmitter with a fly and come out oddly mixed
with the fly.  In the remake a computer has reconstructed the two
with mixed DNA but with a human exterior.  Then slowly the fly DNA
starts transforming the scientist.

     The 1958 version depended for shock value on a
realistic-looking fly head for the human.  This film creates a
revolting-looking physical creature--it looks like bubble gum that
is still being chewed--not at all fly-like, but more revolting.
Still it gets some of the habits of the insect.

     The new THE FLY is good Cronenberg, which means I cannot give
it a general recommendation.  If you don't mind the sort of thing
Cronenberg does, THE FLY is not a bad film, but not nearly as good
as the original.  Rate the Cronenberg a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 11:48:32 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@bbn-labs-b.arpa>
Subject: Cast of Forbidden Planet

The crew of Spaceship C-57-D contains a lot of familiar faces to
those of us who watch old flicks:

The cook was Earl Holliman, who also starred in the first episode of
The Twilight Zone ("Where Is Everybody").  Holliman appeared in his
day with everyone from Bette Davis to John Wayne.  Has anyone seen
him recently in anything?  (I don't watch prime-time TV, so any
network appearances are invisible to me.)

The doctor was Warren Stevens, another journeyman second or third
male lead (check out ON THE THRESHOLD OF SPACE): "Monsters, John,
monsters from the id!"

Also in the cast was Richard Anderson ("We can rebuild the drive,
Captain, make it stronger, faster than it was before, and it will
only cost 6 million--oops, wrong show--Any quantum mechanic in the
galaxy would give his eyeteeth to get his hands on this baby.")
(For fans of odd casting, catch the 1956 picture A CRY IN THE NIGHT,
in which Richard Anderson is beaten up by peeping tom Raymond Burr
when Burr kidnaps Anderson's date, Natalie Wood.  Natalie's dad is
played by Edmond O'Brien, a cop under police chief Brian Donlevy.)

Besides the two lines quoted above, my other favorite line from the
picture is in reference to the force field used against the id
monster: "We're throwing over a billion electron volts at it and
it's still coming!"  (That's 0.16 nano-joules; maybe their batteries
need recharging.)

In fairness, these malapropisms are minor compared to the
side-splitting hilarity of the opening sequence in MOON ZERO TWO, in
which Newton's laws of motion are cast to the ether.

BTW, there are two different prints of FORBIDDEN PLANET: the
original full-length version and the notorious kiddie-matinee cut.
Avoid the first at ALL costs, as it excises a couple of scenes
referred to later on by the uncut portions.  Unfortunately, when MGM
decided to make some new Cinemascope prints of the picture, they
used the kiddie-matinee version.  Urggh....  I was lucky in that the
first time I saw the picture, the college group had rented the
full-length version.  However, it was a "green" print (i.e., fresh
from the lab), and in a few places the sound went out of synch with
the picture and became garbled, leading to the following exchange:

Robbie: "I am equipped to understand 183 languages, along with their
        various dialects and sub-tongues."

Nielsen: "Argle-bargle fitzem ding?"

Robbie:  "Zerfitz kutmel yar."

Back to normal sound/picture tracking.  (Best funny coincidence I've
ever had at the movies.)

"Black Destroyer," the basis for ALIEN, was originally published in
the July 1939 issue of Astounding.  And the kill fee paid to van
Vogt was actually $50K, not $75K as I originally posted.

Kathy Godfrey

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Aug 86 09:36:25 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@mc.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lost in Space

>   The robot was simply "the robot".  Robbie is a character from
> the 1956 movie _Forbidden Planet_ (he did make a guest appearance
> in one episode of _Lost in Space_).

Robbie made at least two guest appearances on LIS, as an enemy of
the robot's and as a prizon caretaker.  I suspect there were others.

>   Doctor Zachary Smith.  I forget who played him.  He was not a
> scientist, but a foreign enemy agent.  I think he was also a
> medical doctor.

He claimed a Ph.D. in something like "interstellar sociology", in an
episode where aliens required him to operate on their leader.  In
the same episode, the robot said (referring to his "Dr." prefix)
"The title is honorary".  That does not necessarily mean that he did
not have a Ph.D., but it pretty much clinches the fact that he was
not an M.D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Aug 86  14:01:28 EDT
From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Astronomy Undergraduate)
Subject: Star Trek Milestone

Did anyone read the Boston Globe Yesterday?  (8/16/86)

   20 years ago, when NBC refused the first pilot for a TV series
called "Star Trek", it's creator later asked (when the series got
off the ground) Paramount Pictures if he could salvage his hard work
and merge the original pilot somehow.  I am, of course, speaking of
the only 2-part episode, "The Menagerie", where most of the footage
of the never aired pilot, "The Cage" ended up.  Unfortunaltely,
Paramount did not want to pay $200 to make another print of "The
Cage" just to cut up and use in "The Menagerie" and so, the only
copy in existence was spliced, and cut up to fit for this episode.
   About a year ago, Gene Roddenbery (sp?) decided to find all the
frames from "The Cage" and see what he could do with them.  It was a
long laborious 'trek' through the film vaults, but he managed to get
all the original film spliced back together, and reprocessed.  (It
was severly damaged in sections) A black and white print has been
made, and was premiered for the first time publically at the New
York Museum of Broadcasting, where it will play for the next 2
months, in celebration of Star Trek's 20th anniversary.  Just a
little piece of nostalgia I found noteworthy of relating here.

By the way: On the subject of a new series, Fox Studios has
preproduction plans on the table, and casting is currently the
issue.  If they DO use the veteran actors, I suggest they make an
episode entitled, "The Deadly Years II" since it will have been 20
or more years since they first experienced aging.  And this time,
makeup sessions will only take about 10 minutes.

SHADOW@UMass.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 09:21:42 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU
Subject: Baen books (and book clubs)

I was talking to the people at Future Fantasy in Palo Alto last
week, and they, too, have decided that the Baen Book Club is unfair
competition and her November orders are the final orders they will
make.  Baen doesn't give 50% off to the store, so there is no way to
compete.

I've mentioned this to Mike Smith, who works with Jim Baen, and he
said he'd pass it up the pipe.  With COH and DV added in, they may
have to rethink this policy.  If I hear anything new, I'll pass it
along.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 21:34 CET
From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Time Travel / Laws of conservation

Conservation of energy doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in
time-travel to me.  When you lose a certain amount of mass to
another point in the space-time-continuum,you get the equivalent
according to E=mc**2.  If this happens fast and violently, you'll
have to face some rather cataclysmic event that might destroy your
time-machine.  Another possibility would be that a time-machine
would develop large amounts of heat equivalent to the energy of the
object sent.

If the resulting energy can be controlled and is not required for
the time-travel itself, this might solve both our energy AND garbage
problems.

Sending back garbage to past times would not pollute earth because
of celestial motions,i.e. yesterday the earth was somewhere else, so
to speak.

All this under the assumption of an energy-conservation-law that is
also time-valid.

Flames on,
Michael Maisack

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Aug 86 1235-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #264
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 264

Today's Topics:

                Books - Always Coming Home (2 msgs),
                Films - Flight of the Navigator &
                        Star Trek (2 msgs) & The Fly (2 msgs),
                Television - The Invadors & Billy Mumy &
                        More SF TV (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 14:11:13 GMT
From: pete@stc.co.uk
Subject: Always Coming Home

Anyone out there read this book? Any opinions/reviews?

I enjoyed it, with some reservations.

Peter Kendell <pete@tcom.stc.co.uk>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 05:55:21 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Always Coming Home

Some interest in opinions on "Always Coming Home" was expressed.  I
haven't read it, but it is one of the main subjects of an excellent
critical essay by Norman Spinrad in this months Asimov's.  Spinrad
explains not only why LeGuin has gone downhill so steeply, but why
mainstream critics applaud such dreadful science fiction books as
"The Eleven Million Mile High Dancer" and why Harper's keeps running
those imbecile articles about science fiction.  His description of
the form of these sf-bashing articles is hilarious, and absolutely
accurate to boot.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 14:56:00 GMT
From: ccvaxa!preece@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Movie FLIGHT OF THE NAVIGATOR

Brad Templeton writes:
> I felt the first half of this movie was quite good, reasonably
> done SF.  The second half degenerated into cute voices, gags, cute
> creatures and a stupid, sappy ending.  Much what you expect from
> Disney today, but not what he used to give us when he was alive.

Leaving aside the spiffy antecedent mismatch, which is cute enough
to maybe be intentional, I think you're wrong.  I thought this was a
lot better than a bunch of movies made in the latter years of
Disney's life.  I think my kids would give you exactly the opposite
evaluation of the movies merits -- the first part was dull and talky
and they didn't know what was going on and the second part was fun
and exciting.  My own opinion lies somewhere in between, but I
thought the movie as a whole was pretty good.

> What I'm really sick of is all the stories that spend all day
> telling you how, "we can't go back in time, it's too dangerous"
> until they do it anyway and all is well.

There's a difference between Superman being told "You absolutely
positively cannot reverse your choice" and the kid being told "I
couldn't risk it, you could be harmed, it's too dangerous."  The
point is that the kid has to make the decision to accept that risk
and the ship has to learn enough about the kid and his life to
accept that decision.

It would have been a pretty heavy movie for kids if the danger had
been realized and the kid killed.  MOST threats met by MOST central
characters in books and movies of all kinds ARE successfully met.

> I guess kids watching this movie don't think about how the other
> characters in the film had their whole lives erased just so the
> kid wouldn't have to adjust, but it sure bothered me.

You must bother easily.  One could argue as easily that those who
had their lives altered by the ship's original decision to NOT
restore the kid to his proper time were unfairly damaged.
Presumably the vast majority of them will grow their lives in
exactly the same way.  I don't think there's a reasonable ethics
governing whether or not to change the course of history -- it's a
little fanciful for serious philosophers.

> Disney movies were supposed to be simulating to children without
> insulting adults.

Well, I didn't feel insulted.  They generally used scientific words
and concepts reasonably, aside from the builtin warpings needed to
cover the basic premise.  The special effects were fine.  The
underlying story about the kid, his relationship to his family, and
the bending of that relationship by his absence made a reasonable
story.  I wish the scientist character had been just a tad more
sympathetic, but even there they avoided the danger of making him
evil.

I was a little surprised that the young woman who helped him at NASA
didn't turn up as a kid after he went back to his own life...

scott preece
gould/csd - urbana
uucp:   ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece
arpa:   preece@gswd-vms

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 17:48:18 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Saavik

>I thought I was the only one who liked Kirstie Allie better.  All
>my friends who have an opinion in the matter think the opposite.
>It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

I'd be interested to hear justification for preferring Robin Curtis.

Allie's Saavik was a very determined, dogged, single-minded officer
candidate.  And occasionally, because of her powerful, accurate
memory for regulations, and her personal strength, she would remind
the old hands of a trick or two.  And she was very dignified.  At
Spock's funeral she even wept with dignity -- hands at her sides,
ramrod straight, perfectly composed.  I could well believe her to be
a Romulan-Vulcan mix.  She acted like one.  ("Humour.  It's a
difficult concept.")

Curtis' Saavik is, by contrast, almost motherly, as far as she shows
any personality at all.  No references to regulations, or logic, at
all.  None of the attitude of a command candidate.  Instead, we get
philosophy, recriminations ("How many people have died for your
impatience?"), and complaints ("Just like your father: so human.",
with exasperated shake of head).  I didn't see nearly the character
in her that Allie showed.  It was hard even to believe it was the
same person.

>In regards to a new Star Trek, I would like to see new actors
>playing new characters.  Maybe a story here and there about Kirk's
>early days, or Captain Pike's days as captain.  But let's not get
>trapped into having 500 episodes with the same characters.  And
>frankly, I'd like to see some civilian shows.  Let's see some of
>the Federation from the inside, not the outside.

Definitely.  Surely this world consists of more than the command
crew of one ship.  If that's all there is, then I think we've seen
enough.  But there must be a great deal more.  Let's see some of it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 00:07:01 GMT
From: bandy@lll-crg.ARpA (Andrew Scott Beals)
Subject: Whales in ST IV: The Voyage Home

rjg@meccts.UUCP (Robert J. Granvin) writes:
>There has never been an official mention of whales, at least.

Perhaps not, I really don't know.  But I do know that they went down
to the Monterey Aquarium (no flames about up:down :: north:south,
please - Livermore is at ~400' elevation, Monterey is sea level) and
did some filming with the (killer ?) whales there.

I did however hear someone connected to the film say that it had
*nothing* to do with Humphrey the Whale.

Andrew Scott Beals
bandy@lll-crg.arpa
{ihnp4,seismo,ll-xn,qantel,pyramid}!lll-crg!bandy
LLNL, P.O. Box 808, Mailstop L-419,
Livermore CA 94550 (415) 423-1948

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Aug 86 21:11:58-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: The Fly

I just saw The Fly starring Jeff Goldblum, directed by David
Cronenberg.

For those who've been living in a cave, the film is a remake of an
old 50s film in which a scientist fiddling with teleportation
accidentally gets his head swapped with a fly's.  This new version
is more "realistic" with the scientist Seth Brundle slowly
metamorphosising into a fly.

This was a very well done, surprisingly good quality film. It
contained a LOT of stomach turning truly disgusting scenes, however,
so be warned in advance.  This is grisly stuff!  My wife wished she
hadn't seen it (and for comparison, she loved Aliens!)  But if
you're willing to put up with (or relish and look forward to :-)
some quite gory scenes, I think you'll enjoy this sf/horror film.
The plot was reasonably consistent (if you can accept the premise)
and treated the story quite differently than I expected.  Jeff
Goldblum does not grow huge wings and terrorize the city as a
monster or anything tacky like that.  Instead the movie is fairly
psychological, exploring the impact on "Brundlefly" as he calls
himself in a moment of black humor and on his girlfriend (a
reporter) and her editor (who begins the movie as her former lover
and a possessive jerk).  All three characters change, (obviously
Seth Brundle does...:-), and all display human failings as well as
good sides.  There is also a fair amount of humor, which becomes
progressively darker and scarcer as things progress.  Now for a few
specific thoughts:

****   SPOILERS AHEAD  ******

1.  Only real "realism" nit to pick is his computer: When will there
be a movie about an individual owning a computer that does NOT have
incredibly high resolution graphics, speech understanding, natural
lang. processing, etc etc...?  Seth says his equipment was not
really expensive, but that computer sure was...!

Of course, nits can be picked about the basic teleportation/fusion
of RNA premise as well... but I regard suspension of disbelief for
that as part of the price of admission.

2.  Those who didn't like the nightmare in Aliens are really gonna
hate the nightmare sequence in this movie...  They are even similar
in some sense.  After it was over, there was much gasping and
laughing, which sounded like nervous laughter and relief.  But it
was much "cheaper" still than the Aliens sequence, so I look forward
to seeing complaints about it here... luckily for me, I LIKE cheap
nightmare sequences...

3. Any biologists out there know whether flies really vomit acid
onto their food to digest it, then swallow it?  That fight scene at
the end really gave me the willies, imagine watching your hand
dissolve away, yuck!

4.  I was amused by the reference at the beginning to selling the
story to Omni magazine, when the editor thought it was a hoax.  I
imagine Omni, being the National Enquirer of science magazines,
would indeed publish it immediately.

5.  The final fusion of Brundlefly and telepod seemed dubious to me
at the time, though upon further thought, I suppose it's ok, given
that the computer was just shot and so probably not thinking too
clearly ...  Any thoughts on whether this was a "cheap effect" or
would the computer really attempt to "fuse" Brundlefly and the
inanimate telepod?

***** END SPOILER  *****

My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this
demented director?  I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome.  I
have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too.  Are they similar in
quality to The Fly or just pure gore?  If they are like The Fly, I
will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore for gore's
sake.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 20:00:36 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: The Fly (SPOILERS)

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>5.  The final fusion of Brundlefly and telepod seemed dubious to me
>at the time, though upon further thought, I suppose it's ok, given
>that the computer was just shot and so probably not thinking too
>clearly ...  Any thoughts on whether this was a "cheap effect" or
>would the computer really attempt to "fuse" Brundlefly and the
>inanimate telepod?

Of course it would - it's in the script!  Really, that's the only
possible explanation for most of the stuff in this film.

Check your biology at the door, but not your mind, as the film can
still be thought provoking.

>My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this
>demented director?  I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome.  I
>have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too.  Are they similar
>in quality to The Fly or just pure gore?  If they are like The Fly,
>I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore for
>gore's sake.

D.C. certainly is a gore director, although I think he also did the
DEAD ZONE which is fairly clean.

The Fly is one of his best, although I personally enjoyed scanners
for what it was.

Cronenberg is now probably the most commercially successful director
in this country, although Norman Jewison probably gets higher
critical acclaim.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 22:42:40 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: "V"??
To: ihlpf!soussan@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan)
> There have been numerous references to "The Visitors". I believe
> you mean the series "V", which starred (I think) Mark Harmon (also
> in The Beastmaster) and

  "V"?  The program was obviously "The Invaders" in which the hero
keeps confronting the evil aliens but they always managed to escape
before he could show them to anyone.  It helped that the aliens had
very high technology, faded away when killed, and differed from
humans only in that they couldn't bend their little pinkie.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 16:30:45 GMT
From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs (errata)

Look for the latest Rolling Stone (with Paul McCartney on the cover)
which features Billy Mumy in "Where Are They Now?"  Turns out he's
been writing and playing for America and other groups.

Kimiye Tipton
Maitland, FL  USA
USENET: ihnp4!abfll!kimi
akgua!akguc!codas!bsdpkh!ides!kimi

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 12:17:48 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com
Subject: re: SF-TV programs

From:   ihlpf!soussan   (Daniel Soussan)

> There were two shows using the same special effects which I always
> mix together.  In one of the two shows (SPACE ACADEMY?), James
> Doohan (Scotty of ST, of course) played the commander of a school
> set in a mobile asteroid.  The other (JASON AND THE ASTRONAUTS?
> JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS?) was like a serial, each episode ending
> with a cliff-hanger...

That was JASON OF STAR COMMAND. The two shows took place in the same
universe. I don't think Doohan was head of the Space Academy, but
the chief of Star Command. I think Jonathan Harris (LIS's Dr. Smith)
that was the head of the SA. I could be misremembering, though,
since I didn't watch them very often.

> EARTH 2?  ARK 2? (not the movie Earth 2 but maybe based on it?)

It was ARK II. I only saw it once or twice, so I don't remember any
details.

From:   well!slf

> Also, nobody's mentioned Sixth Sense with David Hartman...

Wrong morning talk show host. It was Gary Collins.

From: bigbang!bam       (Bret Marquis)

> Did I miss something when Lost in Space and Time Tunnel were
> cancelled?  As far as I can recall, both groups, the Robinsons and
> the two time travellers never returned.  Did either of those shows
> end cleanly?

Nope, both groups are still lost.

> Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin
> production} ever get discovered/killed/deported??  Or is David
> Jansen still out there warning people about the dangers of
> Cerebral Hemorrage??

Nope, that never got resolved, either. In the second year, David
Vincent (note correction, David Janssen was name of the actor from
THE FUGITIVE) did manage to convince enough people that a small
group referred to as The Believers was formed, but that was all (and
if memory serves, most of the group was killed off over the span of
a few episodes).

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 14:52:46 GMT
From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan)
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again)

> Also, nobody's mentioned Sixth Sense with David Hartman; Mission:
> Impossible

You mean Sixth Sense with Gary Collins (which started as its own
series and then "merged" with Night Gallery).

Daniel A. Soussan @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville IL

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Aug 86 1301-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #265
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 23 Aug 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 265

Today's Topics:

            Films - Forbidden Planet & Silent Running &
                    The Fly (2 msgs),
            Television - Giagantor & More SF TV (3 msgs) &
                    Mission Impossible & Lost in Space (2 msgs) &
                    Star Trek & Jonny Quest,
            Miscellaneous - Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 20:29:00 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Cast of Forbidden Planet

I cannot resist mentioning the best-timed film break I ever saw.  It
was at a showing of "Thunderball" (?) the Bond film involving some
stoled H-bombs that the bad guys stash in an underwater cavern (SF,
after a fashion.  Or maybe fantasy...).  Comes the final grand fight
scene.  The bad guys, in SCUBA gear, are towing an H-bomb away on an
underwater sled.  Bond and good guys attack, spearing frogmen and
slashing air hoses right and left.  Quick cut of H-bomb, resting
ominously on its sled, guarded by bad guys.  Bond raises his spear
gun, aims, fires....  and the whole screen turns blinding white.

Jordin Kare

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 19:57:03 GMT
From: carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com (Fanmail from some Flounder?)
Subject: Re: Silent Running

Just for the record, the credits list the following:

    "Introducing as the Drones
        Mark Persons
        Steven Brown
        Cheryl Sparks
        Larry Whisenhunt"

And under technical credits the following:

    "Drone Units
        James Dow
        Paul Kraus
        Don Trumball"

I watched my tape last night for the first time in years. I had
forgotten just how well the drones were pulled off. To bad this type
of robot has not been used since, shame to waste such a neat idea on
just one movie.

Also, I remember that much of the controversy over this movie
stemmed from Joan Baez singing the title song. This movie came out
just when her anti-war preaching was at its zenith and the
"establishment" had had about enough. I beleave this film was banned
in Boston, I know it was pulled from theaters by the now defunct
Maryland Censor Board. And it's rated "G" no less!

Paul Carnell

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 19:37:20 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: The Fly (Joe-Bob-style summary, Leeper-style evaluation)

THE FLY

Be grossed out.  Be very grossed out.

SUMMARY: 2-1/4 female breasts.  2 male buttocks.  5 gallons white
slime.  2 pints blood.  1 green-stick fracture.  8 decaying and
disintrigrating body parts.  1 wimpy computer (no tape drives or
blinking lights).  3 sort-of-functioning teleportation booths.
Arm-Wrestling-Fu.  Wall-Crawling-Fu.  Nasty-Talons-Fu.
Acid-Vomiting-Fu.  Jumping-Through-Windows-Fu.  Shot-Gun-Fu.  1 love
triangle.  1 nasty corporate middle-manager.  100 lines of witty
dialogue.  Check it out.  But take your barf-bags.

+2 on -4 to +4 scale.

Take away between 1 and 3 points if you're squeamish.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 20:41:18 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: The Fly (discussion of technical bogosity, spoilers)

Too much to ask for reasonableness I suppose.  There were two huge
whoppers, to my way of thinking.  First, I can't see any reason for
the teleporter to assume it had to have only one genetic code.
After all, did it assume this of the intestinal flora in his gut?
Or, even lacking that, what about the fact that each human cell has
at least two distinct genetic codes, one which participates in
sexual reproduction and one of which is purely maternal descent?  It
just doesn't make a great deal of sense, when thought about for more
than a few seconds.

Then, they proceed to make the traditional "insect powers" mistakes.
Flies can walk on walls, so our hero can.  Flies can lift many times
their weight, so our hero can lift many times his weight.  Flies are
very fast, so our hero is very fast.  Yuck.  Flies can walk on
walls, because at their size gravity is a negligible force compared
to adhesion and surface tension and the like.  And they can lift so
many times their weight because of their square-cube advantage, not
because they are intrinsically strong.  And they are fast again only
because they are small.

There are a zillion smaller problems with the developmental course
following the genetic fusion, but all in all I found it a very
interesting premise.  Once you have suspended your disbelief of the
above two major points, the minor ones are not so bad.

It would be interesting to have the elements handled a little
better.  Have a more plausible teleportation error damage our hero's
DNA in a more reasonable way.  Have the physical abilities of the
result be more in line with reality.  Have the developmental process
a little more plausible.  Well, I'm up for another remake!  How
about Lucas?  Or Ridley Scott?  Or both?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 08:43:08 GMT
From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Gigantor

tewok@umcp-cs.UUCP (Wayne Morrison) writes:
>There is one show that I remember that no one I have ever mentioned
>it to has ever heard of.  The show was called "Gigantor", and was
>possibly the prototype of the robot shows.  Does anyone remember
>ever seeing this show?

Yup! I loved it as a kid. It was this huge, pretty non-descript
robot; (hey!  I saw this in b/w and it was just grey all over).
Distinguishing features : a "Roman soldier's helmet" type head, with
a fin (I think) and a permanently up visor type thing (how precise
can I be about something I saw 20 or so years ago) and a large
pointed nose. On his back were two rocket tubes.

He/it was controlled by a little featureless box which had a "gear
stick" handle and an antenae (sic?); this box was owned by one Jimmy
Sparks (I love that name! its right up there with Barney Rubble),
son of Gigantor's inventor and creator. The adventures were shared
with a secret agent, about whom I remember NOTHING!

Anybody else got anything to add?

Through this show, and "Marine Boy", I fell in love with Japanese
animation.  Unfortunately, British TV (or at least the regions I've
lived in) haven't really shown much else. ("Inspector Gadget" &
"Ulleysis(sic again!)"  have been on; I think they are French
co-productions). While on holiday in Italy, however, I have seen
quite a few others -- "Lupin III", for example, which is brill!

Hey! I'm rambling again -- I'll get out of your way now, g'day!  Any
e-mail re Japanese animation welcome.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster
      Department of Computing
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 02:32:32 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: re: SF-TV programs

Speaking of Superhero tv shows:

I remember a couple from back when.  Of course, there was Batman.
There were a couple of other comedies--Captain Nice was one, I don't
remember the other.

There was another about a plane load of people who crashed in the
Himalayas and came back with mysterious powers.  Don't remember the
title of that one, either.  I seem to remember that this one was
more serious.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 14:44 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: SF on TV

How about The Immortal that had a guy whose blood had supercharged
antibodies and such.  Injuries would heal in seconds (time-lapse
stuff), he never got sick, and he was being chased by everyone and
their brother because this stuff was transfusable.

And I don't remember the name of the show but heres the plot:
  Mountain man freezes in a glacier or something, a hundred years
later gets thawed out and goes and lives with his grandson who
happens to be about 30 older than he is.

For humorous fantasy, (sick humor) there's always I Dream of
Jeannie, with none other than Larry Hagman.

How about When Things Were Rotten, punnishing Robin Hood.

I'll send more when I think of it.

Brett

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 03:40:47 GMT
From: steinmetz!davidsen@caip.rutgers.edu (Davidsen)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

Actually my favority SF TV show was a fantasy (and I really prefer
hard core SF) and a comedy to boot, _Wizards and Warriors_ which was
on for a summer and vanished. I got all the episodes on tape except
the first one, which I missed (sigh).

My wife votes for _QUARK_, the comedy about a galactic garbage scow.
It was *way* too subtle for the general public, with dozens of
double meanings and references.

bill davidsen
ihnp4!{seismo!rochester!steinmetz|unirot|chinet}!crdos1!davidsen
davidsen@g-crd.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 00:36:06 GMT
From: cae780!gordon@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Gordon)
Subject: Re: Mission Impossible

slf@well.UUCP (Sharon Lynne Fisher) writes:
>Also, nobody's mentioned ... Mission:  Impossible ...

Whoa, there.  One of the neat things about MI was that everything
they did was POSSIBLE, right then.  Maybe prohibitively expensive
and too risky for "field use", but possible -- which pretty takes it
out of the science fiction realm.

FROM:   Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc.
UUCP:   tektronix!cae780!gordon
        {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amdcad!cae780!gordon
        {hplabs, resonex, qubix, leadsv}!cae780!gordon
USNAIL: 5302 Betsy Ross Drive/#58137, Santa Clara, CA  95052-8137
AT&T:   (408)748-4817 [direct]    (408)727-1234 [switchboard]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 01:44:20 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Lost in Space
To: hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU
Cc: ops@NCSC.ARPA

From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>[Zachary Smith] claimed a Ph.D. in something like "interstellar
>sociology", in an episode where aliens required him to operate on
>their leader.

  Well, he wasn't known for always telling the truth, you may recall.

>In the same episode, the robot said (referring to his "Dr." prefix)
>"The title is honorary".

  Since Dr. Smith was not part of the crew, the robot would have had
no information on his credentials except what Smith chose to tell
it.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 09:24:35 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@mc.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lost in Space

I dislike arguing details of a show which never tried to be
consistent with common sense, physical laws, social laws, or even
itself, but I tend to believe Smith's comment in this case was as
true as possible for such shifts in consistency.

He would certainly lyingly claim a degree in the face of greed, but
in this case his only motive was to convince the aliens that he was
not an M.D.  If he WAS an M.D., he would have attempted the
operation in light of the promised reward.  If he had no degree, I
think he would just say that, rather than make up a degree to
explain his name.

The clincher, as far as my opinion is concerned, is that the rest of
the episode never gave reason to doubt it.  This show was made for
an age group for which they would never expect you to assume
something like that without explicitly verifying it (for those that
were too slow to make the assumption) in the very near future.
We're not talking a deep show, where much can be read between the
lines.

Concerning what the Robot knew about Smith, he was responsible (when
he returned to Earth in "The Time Merchant") for seeing that the
Robot was installed on the J-II right before launch.  Thus it is
possible that he had something to do with it's programming and/or
verbal indoctrination earlier.  This also supports the supposition
that he was not an M.D., or at least, had other talents for which he
was employed.  It must also be assumed that the Robot learned much
about Smith after the launch, both directly and from the Robinsons.

Of course, Smith is also shown declaring crew members fit for the
trip as if he had just given them physicals, both in the original
episode and in "The Time Merchant".  It's possible that he was
originally an M.D., and then the scriptwriters changed their mind to
better represent the pathetic creature he had become.  The
examination scene in "The Time Merchant" was probably done since
they had irrevocably done it in the first episode.  But the
examination consisted of him removing some electrodes, and saying
"You'll do."  Anyone may be able to read the dials for such an
examination.  Also, Will and a general called him "Dr." at Alpha
Control.  Due to the simplicity of the examination, his other duties
at Alpha Control, his non-medical interests in other episodes, and
the fact that even a general admitted he was a doctor of something,
I would assume he was a doctor of something other than medicine.
The degree he claimed to the aliens seemed suitably whimpy for him,
and could explain familiarity with the Robot: a piece of equipment
critical to explorations which were in his sphere of interest.

Of course he was, above all else, an "enemy agent" [from FANTASTIC
TELEVISION, a reasonably clinical description of many TV-SF series],
who sabotaged the J-II in the first place (and bungled it by getting
stuck on board himself).  The only part of the sabotage I recall was
reprogramming the Robot to destroy the ship.  He was later given
credit for the programming which made the Robot more human, and was
often questioned reguarding matters of technical Robot maintenance,
for which he was responsible.  It's clear (from the general) that he
was a doctor.  Based on the skills he has demonstrated, I find it
much easier to believe that his degree was in something other than
medicine.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 14:30 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Star Trek Episode

The ST episode that had the giant Amoeba eat the ship of Vulcans was
The Immunity Syndrome.  The ship was the USS Intrepid as others have
pointed out.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 15:18:45 GMT
From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger)
Subject: Re: Johnny Quest

Has anyone else noticed that Johnny Quest looked a lot more like
Race Bannon than he did like his supposed father, Benton Quest?  One
wonders what Race and the late Mrs. Quest were doing while Benton
was down at the lab...

Ah, but what a great show!  I wonder if EVERYBODY'S favorite episode
was the one with the robot spider -- I've never met anyone who
didn't say that one.

Mike Caplinger (mike@bellcore.com)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 09:11:28 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Time Travel / Laws of conservation

From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
>If the resulting energy can be controlled and is not required for
>the time-travel itself, this might solve both our energy AND
>garbage problems.
>
>Sending back garbage to past times would not pollute earth because
>of celestial motions,i.e. yesterday the earth was somewhere else,
>so to speak.
>
>All this under the assumption of an energy-conservation-law that is
>also time-valid.

   Presumably sending objects into the past would *consume* energy
-- it is only sending them into the future that would produce
energy.  The idea being that if you send an item into the past,
there are now two copies of that item, and it took energy produce
that second copy.  Similarly if you send an item into the future it
ceases to exist for a period of time, and presumably its energy
would become available.

   It seems, though, that you could only "borrow" energy from the
future -- when the future actually came along, and the object once
again existed, its appearance would require the subtraction of an
equal amount of energy, if energy were to be conserved.
   But this is a kind of time-travel machine that we already (in
theory) *know* how to build: convert X to energy, store the energy
for a while, then convert the energy back into X.  Presto, time
travel into the future.

   Not really very exciting, come to think of it.

David desJardins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Aug 86 1322-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #266
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 24 Aug 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 266

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Myers,
                     Television - Jonny Quest &
                             More SF TV (3 msgs),
                     Miscellaneous - The Challenger & 
                             Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 13:25:07 GMT
From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan)
Subject: Re: reference from Myers' _Silverlock_

> My wife and I have both recently read _Silverlock_, and of course
> we spent quite a bit of time picking out all the references.  One
> that I couldn't place is the reference to the talking horses and
> the Yahoos.

The reference to talking horses and yahoos is from the book commonly
known as "Gullivers Travels" by Jonathan Swift.  This book is
actually called _Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World,
by Lemuel Gulliver_ and chronicles Gulliver's adventures in a bunch
of different places (including the famous Lilliput).  One of the
nations he visits is "Houyhnhnmland," where horses are the sentient
race (and they call themselves "Houyhnhnms" - pronounced "hween*ms"
where *=schwa (upside down e) by my English teacher of long ago),
and they use humans as draft animals (called "yahoos").

Daniel A. Soussan @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL.
....!ihnp4!ihlpf!soussan

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 19:56:53 GMT
From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
>With all the discussion of SF on TV, I've been surprised to see no
>mention of my first intro to SF, an animated series called "Johnny
>Quest."  ...
>
>Anyone else remember it?

Of course I remember it!  :) In fact there is now a comicbook that
is pretty well done on that series, AND there is a company that is
going to be coming out with NEW episodes!!  The everyone will be
about the same age as when the series was cancelled a long time ago,
but there will be changes.  I think that there will be a little girl
the same age as Johnny who is into theoretical physics (the original
was deemed too male-dominated).

The originator of the series is working closely with the new people,
so the art is going to be about the same.  Also, the premise that
all the science that they will be using is only about 20 years in
advance of the present will be kept.  Makes for all sorts of fun
with those air cushion whosiwhatsits roaming about.

I think that Bandit dies... sigh, the originator, sadly hated the
dog because his advertisers made him put in some cute animal that
could be sold in mass markets... he had to put him in, but
desperately wanted to avoid a "boy and his dog" story, so he put in
Hadji.

Well, that's all I remember at the moment... I think that the comic
book is from Comico, and I think that they would know how to contact
whoever it is that is going to do the TV show.

Liralen Li
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 23:54:20 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!jnp@caip.rutgers.edu (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

> But, does anyone remember "Astro Boy"?

Yup - my younger brother used to watch it.  A little robot-kid with
greasy hair and jet tube feet.

As long as I'm admitting to be a golden oldie myself, are there any
other antiques out there that remember:

   Science Fiction Theater
      First run in the 50's, in syndication as late as
      1970's  1/2 hour of very good, although low budget,
      sf.

   Community Outer Space Theater
      Local (Chicago - WGN) runs of the FLASH GORDON
      (Buster Crabbe) and BUCK ROGERS (Crabbe again)
      movie serials - in the 50's and 60's

John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 17:45:35 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> From: ihlpf!soussan   (Daniel Soussan)
>> Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin
>> production} ever get discovered/killed/deported??  Or is David
>> Jansen still out there warning people about the dangers of
>> Cerebral Hemorrage??
>
>Nope, that never got resolved, either. In the second year, David
>Vincent (note correction, David Janssen was name of the actor from
>THE FUGITIVE) did manage to convince enough people that a small
>group referred to as The Believers was formed, but that was all
>(and if memory serves, most of the group was killed off over the
>span of a few episodes).

I think a resolution was implied.  In the last episode, the
Believers had found help from a group of dissenters among the
invaders. (No, I'm not confusing it with "V".  This was The
Invaders.)  The show ended with a delegation of sympathetic aliens
and, I think, a human or two taking off in one of their flying
saucers to the alien's home planet for negotiations.  The show gave
you hope, but didn't specifically resolve the conflict.  Final scene
is David Vincent turning away as the saucer vanishes into the
clouds.  Striking.  I'd like to see the whole series again, but
alas, haven't ever seen it rerun anywhere.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 17:34:45 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>There was another about a plane load of people who crashed in the
>Himalayas and came back with mysterious powers.  Don't remember the
>title of that one, either.  I seem to remember that this one was
>more serious.  david rickel

The Champions, a British SF.  They had super strength and a sort of
telepathy and precognition.  I think it only lasted one season.  The
show started with a shot of this huge fountain.  Why, I don't know.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 86 19:42:35 GMT
From: li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li)
Subject: Re: supporting CHALLENGER

Last night, on the late evening news I thought I heard that old
Ronnie has OK'ed the building of a new shuttle, and that it would be
based in California.  Any confirmations?  I was mostly asleep at the
time, so it may have been a good dream... SOMEbody please confirm or
deny this!

Liralen Li
USENET:  ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li
ARPA:    li@uw-vlsi.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 August 1986 07:57:39 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: A Man Goes Insane While Pondering Time Travel Experiments

   I was pondering the question of time travel quite recently, while
trying to think up a story using that concept. I tried to come up
with some sort of "temporal physics" or "laws of time" that would
eliminate all the paradoxes that go along with it (pretty ambitious,
eh--but ultimately futile). And after reading all the current
postings about time travel, I'm more confused than ever. Is there
any way at all to zap through time and not contradict the laws of
the universe? Its enough to make one swear off time travel forever
(but I still watch Doctor Who, paradoxes and all! :-).

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 20:18:00 GMT
From: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu (FRANEY)
Subject: Gold Coin Revisited

   Last night, I started reading a book by John Varley called
'Millenium' that describes a group of individuals living in the Last
Age who are capable of travelling through time.  This group uses its
ability to rescue ('snatch') people of its past from certain death.

   In the first chapters, the group is busy trying to save the
passengers and crew of a doomed airplane of 1955, when quite a few
of the incidents that aren't supposed to happen happen.  Things
start going wrong.  In trying to solve these problems, a great deal
of energy is spent, which made me wonder why the group didn't abort
its mission and try again at its leisure.

   The reason is that when the rescue team returns to the airplane
to retry, they will merely get in their own way, since the first
effort exists in the airplane at the time before the crash already.

   I immediately thought of our gold coin.  Logically, it is
possible to believe that in sending a gold coin back to a time and
place it already existed, you would now have two coins.

   But, lets say you spend an hour with a gold coin.  You stare at
the coin; 'grok' the coin for a full hour.  Nothing else exists for
you during that hour except that coin and the otherwise empty table
it sits on.  At the end of the hour, you send the coin back into
time to the beginning of the hour to a place one inch away from
itself.  Now I ask you, what do you remember doing during that hour?
Do you remember staring at one coin on an empty table or do you
remember staring at one coin sitting next to an identical coin on a
table?

   The problem of conservation of mass and time travel does not only
apply to the coin.  It also applies to the memory cells within your
head.  However the mechanism of memory works, it is certainly
physical.  In order to move something through time, you must also
alter the memories of people associated with the temporal change.
Also, changes must occur to the written word, say if you wrote a
journal about watching the coin.  If your cat was with you, watching
one coin (maybe here the example could appropriately be transferred
to a mouse) you would have to change the images registered within
its brain as well.

   [This bring to mind a book by I. M. Notsurewho called 'Time and
Again' which held the theory that to travel through time, you must
convice yourself, your brain, that you already are then.  The only
thing that keeps an individual in the present is the temporal
strings attached to his psyche (ie. images of contemporary
telephones).]

   Back to the coin.  When travelling in time, the conservation of
mass (and memory) can be maintained by exchange.  In order to send
the coin back into time, we must also bring the coin of the past
into the present.  Using this method, your memory will not be
altered, your journal will read the same, and the cat will still be
trying to figure out what's so interesting about a gold coin anyway.

   Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in temporal
exchange.  Why bother if you get back what you sent? And how would
you prove it worked?  This method also excludes the possibilty of
people travelling through time.  My body today is not the same body
of yesterday.  I ate more food, and eliminated waste.  My blood is
redistributed. My memory cells have been altered.  Also, I would not
be able to travel to 1776 because the matter that makes me up today
was not arranged this way back then.  If it was, I would have
already existed back then so why go at all?

   But, hold it.

   On a grand scale, the conservation of matter and energy says: The
total of mass and energy in the universe now is equal to the total
of mass and energy at any other time.

                    Universe(1986) = Universe(?)

   Taking the mass and energy that make up a gold coin out of
Universe(10:00) and moving it to Universe(9:00) will unbalance the
above equation unless the same amount of mass and energy is
returned.  The exchange made does not have to be with identical
matter and energy.  Matter or energy is made up of quantifiable
particles.  When sending a gold coin back into the past, we have to
bring to the future a gold coin's worth of matter/energy from the
exact instant we send it.

   Lets say the coin is sent an hour into the future and a gold
coin's worth of matter/energy is exchanged.  An hour later the gold
coin appears on the table.  How did it get there?

   Did the nature of time travel automatically re-exchange the
matter/energy and the coin?  If this happens the coin returns to the
instant from when we sent it and never appears to have left us.

   Did the matter/energy that we exchanged suddenly converge to make
a coin?  Maybe we built a receptor that collects matter/energy
particals and reconstructs objects from directions issued from
another time.  [Star Trek's transporter technology can be based on
this concept.  A tranport is actually a time travel to another place
at half an instant from when it was initiated.]

   Actually, a receptor does not have to be built.  Matter/energy
collects itself naturally.  If a coin is sent not an hour, a second
or a millesecond, but the smallest time unit imaginable into the
future, what would we see?  We would see a coin there one unit, and
there the next, just like we see happen, with everything, every day.
This is a natural phenomenon which needs no man-made receptors.

   Thomas Edison invented the motion picture based on an optical
illusion.  The eye doesn't notice movement quicker than 30th of a
second.  The same kind of illusion is being played on our senses of
matter/energy existence. Things are flickering in and out of the
present always, on their way into the future.

   We are all travelling in time.

   But now I'm confused, with regards to the two gold coins sitting
on the table for an hour.  Whether we remember one or two coins on
the table, the fact is that there are now two coins on the table.
When we send the coin back, we receive a coin's worth of
matter/energy and the matter/energy conservation law is maintained.
The end of the hour comes along.  The moment that we sent the coin
back is at hand.  I'll call this moment Instant A.  Before Instant A
and because we sent the coin back, there are two coins on the table.
At Instant A, we make a matter/energy exchange, all systems go.
After Instant A, the two coins are now one, having sent the original
back.  After Instant A, there is a coin's worth of matter/energy
imbalance in the equation.  It turns out that Universe(10:00) <
Universe(10:01).  How can the existence of the coin on the table be
justified after instant A?

   Ever notice that if the symbol for infinity was a road you would
be able to walk on it forever, that is, till the end of time?  I
think the question of time travel is such a road.  That a parodox
resolved is a parodox created.  Resolving the second generates the
first.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 86 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #267
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 267

Today's Topics:

                   Administrivia - Wha' Happened,
                   Television - Jonny Quest (2 msgs) &
                           Stingray (2 msgs) & 
                           Mission Impossible (3 msgs) &
                           Lost in Space (2 msgs) & 
                           The Invisible Man &
                           Doctor Who & More SF on TV (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 09:02:31 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Wha' Happened

   Hello and welcome once again to SF-LOVERS.  Many of you may have
noticed that you have not received a digest since around the middle
of August and are beginning to panic.  Withdrawl symptoms are surely
starting by now.  Well here is your "fix" and an explanation.
   Around the middle of August, Rutgers had mail problems.  It seems
as though we somehow stopped being able to talk to our ARPA
neighbors and so mail could not get through to any of you folks.  I
am not sure of all the details but it was a mess!
   Shortly before the problem was fully resolved, I went on
vacation.  "Where did I go?" I hear you ask.  Well, I went to sunny
(??) Atlanta for the 1986 World Scence Fiction Convention.  I found
out some really interesting things about several topics (including
details of the new Star Trek movie and upcoming novels).  For
details of the new movie, send $1000 to my numbered swiss bank
account and send me a SASE with proof of deposit.  (For those of you
slow on the uptake, this means that I ain't talkin'.  I promised not
to tell).
   As the result of all of this, there are close to 300 messages
sitting in my queue waiting to be put into a digest and then sent
off to you.  I will be attempting to get this stuff out as soon as
possible.  Expect between three and six digests a day for the next
week or so until I catch up.  I will try and make the digests single
topics ones so that reading them will be easier.
   Any way, as a reminder to all of you readers: I have been getting
a lot of messages lately that are obviously meant for the digest
sent to my personal mailbox.  These messages as you may have
noticed, never made it to the digest.  With good reason.  The way
the digest mail is set up, mail to the address SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
also gets forwarded to the usenet news file net.sf-lovers.  Mail
sent to any other address at Rutgers (for SF-LOVERS) does not.
Similarly, if you want to talk to me personally, that is to request
back issues or to change your mail address, the address to mail to
is SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.  Again, if you send this mail to the
wrong place it will be ignored.  This is final and not open for
discussion.  Please make sure you send your discussion to
SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.
   And now, on with the show......

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 11:21:30 PDT (Friday)
From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM>
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Jonny Quest
To: Wahl.es@Xerox.COM

Note that Jonny Quest is now being published as a comic book by
Comico.  Two issues out so far.  All new stories; very faithful to
the TV show; very good stuff.  Probably available only at comics
"specialty shops" (i.e., not drug stores).

The comic books also have some info on the possible upcoming revival
of the TV series that Sharon Fisher referred to in a followup
posting.

Don.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 04:20:52 GMT
From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher)
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Johnny Quest

>I wonder if EVERYBODY'S favorite episode was the one with the robot
>spider -- I've never met anyone who didn't say that one.

My favorite was the "gas monster" that they made visible by pouring
paint on it.  Gave me the heebiejeebies.  However, the spider was
good too.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 10:00 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: SF on TV -- A request
Cc: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM

   I also remember a Gerry Anderson Puppetmation show from the early
'60's (before we moved to Albuquerque in autumn '65), with an
underwater woman/mermaid who couldn't speak. Her name was Marina,
and I think it's my first memory of that name. What was the name of
that series? Was it Fireball XL5? Somehow that doesn't feel right.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 86 14:00:09 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Stingray

The Supermarianation series Marina Fournier was asking about was
STINGRAY, dealing with Troy Tempest, captain of the flagship
submarine of WASP, the World Aquanaut Security Patrol.  His boss was
Commander Sam Shore (confined to a wheelchair, making this perhaps
the first regular series to feature a disabled character as
something other than a "cripple") and the boss's daughter/Troy's
love interest was Atlanta Shore, voice by and puppet head resembling
Canadian actress Lois Maxwell, who played Moneypenny in the JAMES
BOND FILMS.  Troy's navigator was called "Phones" (a nick name).
WASP was constantly at war with the evil forces of Titan, ruler of
the undersea kingdom of Titania.  His minions, called Aquaphibians,
rode around in large mechanical fish.  Marina, the mute woman, was
originally Titan's slave (a second major character with a disability
-- if Gerry Anderson accomplished nothing else in his career, at
least he raised the social conscience of some kids in the early
sixties).  Titan's surface agent was X-2-0, a caricature of Peter
Lorre.

Ah, yes.  I remember it well ...

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 20:12:34 GMT
From: ihlpf!soussan@caip.rutgers.edu (Soussan)
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again) [mi]

Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. writes:
>slf@well.UUCP (Sharon Lynne Fisher) writes:
>>Also, nobody's mentioned ... Mission:  Impossible ...
> Whoa, there.  One of the neat things about MI was that everything
> they did was POSSIBLE, right then.  Maybe prohibitively expensive
> and too risky for "field use", but possible -- which pretty takes
> it out of the science fiction realm.

I beg to differ with you there.  I contend that some of the gadgets
and drugs used on that show are definitely science fiction.  For
example:

1) The "ring" with the spike that knocked a person unconscious when
pressed into the *back of the neck* (not the side/front as in
carotid artery) within seconds (not 15-20 secs, but 2-5).

2) The integrated circuit sized transmitter/receiver which was
placed/implanted in the ear.  This "integrated circuit" had a
self-contained power source and antenna.  I contend this technology
was not available in the 1960's.

3) In one episode, a chess-playing computer was used in a world
championship chess match and either held its own or beat the world
champion opponent - a feat that cannot be done today with
specialized hardware and software (the Belle chess playing
computer), let alone in the sixties.

I do not immediately recall other examples, but I think you catch my
drift.

I would agree that much of what they did was possible with the
existing technology, and I think that almost everything was
plausible - although it couldn't be done, this is a reasonable
approach - but I wouldn't say *all* was possible.  Therefore, I
would put MI into the "only slightly ahead of its time" science
fiction category.

Daniel A. Soussan @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL
email: ...!ihnp4!ihlpf!soussan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 86 04:42:37 GMT
From: public@wheaton (Joe Public)
Subject: Re: Mission Impossible

gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes:
>Whoa, there.  One of the neat things about MI was that everything
>they did was POSSIBLE, right then.

What about those latex masks they wore to impersonate someone?
Always wanted to have one of those myself til I realized they were
impossible in real life.

calvin richter

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 02:00:08 GMT
From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb)
Subject: Re: Mission Impossible

gordon@cae780.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes:
>>Whoa, there.  One of the neat things about MI was that everything
>>they did was POSSIBLE, right then.
> What about those latex masks they wore to impersonate someone?
> Always wanted to have one of those myself til I realized they were
> impossible in real life.

I agree that some of the people they "masked" had far too different
features for a mask to work, but some of the make-up techniques
today *do* make them possible.

Jim Webb
ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jrw

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:07:04 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
To: F/SF Digest <sf-lovers@rutgers.ARPA>
Subject: Lost in Space

Slight trivia: Roddenberry tried to sell Trek to CBS, and talked to
them for 2 hours to explain how he thought it could be done
reasonably.  At the end of the interview, they said. "We already
have a sci-fi show.  But we do appreciate your coming in."

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 86 09:49:28 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian)
Subject: Re: Lost in Space

Dr. Smith was at first the only one able to control the Robot.  As
has been stated before, he was responsible for reprogramming the
Robot to destroy the ship, and later he nearly had the Robot kill
Will after they crash landed.  The Robot's personality changed
somewhat after Will started speaking to it in an authoritative
voice.  Also, I think Will learned to program the robot to obey his
normal voice.  In the episode where Will takes a trip back to Earth
to pick up carbon tetrachloride, the Robot shows his first
allegiance towards Will and against Dr. Smith.  From that point on,
Will and the Robot became good friends, while the Robot's opinion of
Dr. Smith steadily declined.

Dr. Smith certainly gave a lot of meanings to his title -- I can
recall he said something about studying extraterrestrial psychology,
medicine, robotics, ...  At the time when Dr. Smith was operating on
the aliens, the Robot was probably being facetious when he said that
Dr. Smith's title was honorary.

gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 11:24:05 PDT (Friday)
From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM>
Subject: Re: Invisible man

Only slightly off the topic: Daniel Soussan's mention of McCallum's
short-lived INVISIBLE MAN series reminds me of one of my favorite TV
announcements.  (I'm not making this up, either.)

   "Due to the following special program,
   The Invisible Man will not be seen tonight."

Don.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 24 Aug 86 21:59:32-EDT
From: "Jonathan S. Drukman" <RMS.G.JON%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Dr. WHo Fans Of THe World UNITe!

Are you tired of hiding in closets and not sharing your fetish with
other similarly inclined weirdos? If you think I'm talking about
bizaare sex then you obviously haven't been looking at the 'Subject'
field. I'm talking about the greatest science fiction persona of
them all... Dr. Who!  If you are interested in this, the longest
running science fiction series ever (23 years and still going...)
then you definitely need to join UNIT USA, THe United States Branch
Of The United Nations Intelligence Taskforce.  Unit USA members are
strange, demented people with usually only one (or less) things in
common. Despite this we have a barrel of fun at our meetings and we
often help out at local sf cons. TO be specific, we are Spirit Of
Light's contact - they are the people who are bringing the fourth
and sixth Doctors to Massachusetts. Yes that's right, Tom and Colin
Baker will be here and you certainly don't want to miss what might
be TOm Baker's last public appearance ever, do you!?  If you think
UNIT USA sounds like your cup of tea, then drop me a line either
here or by Snail or give me a call (617)969-1574 but I won't be
around much longer... Call now or miss out on a real experience...

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 13:21:05 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

The Immortal, starring Christopher George, was based on THE
IMMORTALS (plural) by James Gunn.  The series about a man frozen in
a glacier was THE SECOND HUNDRED YEARS, starrring Monte Markham.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86  12:28 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: old sci-fi shows...

Here are a few shows nobody has mentioned:

1) MR. TERRIFIC - Mild-mannered Stanley Beamish (a little guy who
looks like Alan Thicke) is the only man in the world who has the
blood type to use the "super-power" pill invented by the government
to become (ta-da!) Mr. Terrific. (Love that name!) There were two
kinds of pills: one lasted for 1/2 hour, the other for ten minutes.
He could only be "powered-up" for a total of an hour a day. When he
wasn't flying around doing jobs for the government, he worked in a
garage with his partner (the guy who played "Hymie" on "Get Smart"),
who fancied himself a lady-killer. I liked this show! It was corny,
but fun (and funny).  (This guy never carried enough pills with
him).

2) CAPTAIN NICE - I kid you not! I remember the pilot episode.
Scientist Carter Nash discovers a wonder drug which turns him into a
super hero.  The first time he saves someone, they see the initials
C.N. on his belt buckle, and ask him what they stand for. The only
thing he can think of at the moment is "Captain Nice". Later, his
mother berates him for thinking up such a stupid name! Like Mr.
Terrific, this show didn't last for long.

3) ASTRO-BOY - Remember the great Japanimation shows we used to see?
This was the little robot who wanted to be human. The brilliant
scientist who invented him later felt sorry for him, and built him a
couple of robot parents, and a robot sister!

4) GIGANTOR - "Gigantor the space-aged robot, he's at, your
command..."  Giant needle-nosed robot remote-controled by some
kid...

5) THE 8TH MAN - Tobor, 8th wonder of the world. Robot who was
super-strong, super-fast, and could instantly change his appearance.
He seemed to always be getting wrecked, and dragging himself back to
his creator for repairs. His girlfriend, Jenny, was a hot little
number.

6) SPEED RACER - Need I say more? Who could forget the Mach-5?  Do
the names Spridle, Chim-Chim, and Racer X ring a bell? Did Speed get
his name because he was into drugs? "Here he comes, here comes Speed
Racer, he's a demon on wheels, he's a demon and he's gonna be
chasin' after someone..." Satanic reference? Who knows?

Have you checked out Saturday morning cartoons lately? When you have
been raised on the above shows, "Smurfs", "Kissyfur" and "Ewoks"
make you want to puke violently...

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 05:52:27 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

As for TV shows, does anyone remember "Marine Boy" (and his oxygen 
pillls!!!)?  I used to live for that show when I was about 7.  Oh, the
lost innocence of youth.

And what was the name of the one that started with this buch of 
American spies getting lost in Tibet (or somewhere equally mysterious)
and being given special powers by some mystical monks?  It's had a
recent re-showing on British television, but I only managed to catch
the first two episodes.

Hugh ARPA:  Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 08:07 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: SF on TV

While we're on the topic of obscure SF on tv: Anyone remember a very
short-lived show about a total loser whose given some kind of drug
that elevates him to Superman powers?  Forerunner to Greatest
American Hero.  I can't even remember the title, but I remember
enjoying it -- when I was about ten.

Anyone know if any of these shows (such as Johnny/Jonny Quest) are
being aired anywhere?

Lisa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 86 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #268
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 268

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 86 01:49:29 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!bnw@nosc.ARPA (Bruce N. Wheelock)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #247

chapman@calder.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman) writes:
>>   The United States Navy is able to land an F-14 Tomcat on the
>>flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night and at sea, by remote
>>control.
>Whoa!!  Can you give a reference for that?

     I don't have a specific reference.  I can tell you that I was
on the USS Constellation for 40 months, and saw a few remote
landings, including one attempt at night that never did succeed.
     Not only does the Navy *not* lose "several planes and pilots
per cruise" (our carrier lost 0 in 1977, 1 plane, no pilots in 1978,
and 2 planes and 1 F-14 crew in 1980), but approach crashes are
almost unheard of.
     The LSO no longer directs the plane into the deck.  He advises
while the pilot "flies the ball," and has the absolute authority to
wave the pilot off, but the pilot guides his plane in these days,
guided by a complex light-and- lens assembly (the ball).  Heck, the
LSO can't even see an incoming plane at night.

{akgua, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!pnet01!bnw

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Aug 1986 04:38:14-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: ALIENS nightmare sequence

> From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
> My feeling about the nightmare sequence in Aliens is that it is
> such an overused plot device that it has lost some of its effect
> on me.  As soon as things started going bad in that scene it was
> plainly obvious to me that it must just be the "standard Hollywood
> nightmare" scene.  [...]  It was obvious to me that if the cat had
> been inpregnated (I hope I'm remembering the dream correctly, viz.
> that it ended with an alien coming out of the cat)...

(1) No, you didn't remember the nightmare correctly. The little
sucker came out of Ripley, not Jones.

(2) I felt the same way, though for a different reason. As soon as
the "problem" started happening, I said to myself, "This has got to
be a dream. I *know* Ripley is in later scenes in the movie, so she
can't die here and now." On the other hand, there was a dream
sequence in new version of THE FLY that took me somewhat by
surprise. I knew there was something strange about what was
happening, but it still took me by surprise.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 10:44:28 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>>   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
>>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back)
>>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require
>>a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really is the
>>absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel.
>
>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit;
>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid
>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable.

   All right then, explain how.  I'm looking forward to hearing your
explanation of how this theoretical limit can be exceeded.  I
suspect it is about as valid as Newman's energy machine -- for some
reason I'm always suspicious when people challenge straightforward
physics calculations with no details or calculations of their own.

>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be practical.
>This nullifies the whole calculation.

   I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel.
Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen
and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than
converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.  I'll
try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be
collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be impractically
large.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 14:53:41 EDT
From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Aliens{what again?}

Just read _Alien_ again and a few quick thoughts from it.

1) Cold sleep: Commonly called "hyper-sleep" so why would it be
called that unless they had some type of hyper drive?

2) The Alien Ship: They kept mentioning how the ship looked like it
was "natural" or "grown"(sp?).  It was mentioned that the inside of
the hold looked like a whale belly.  Would this give credence to the
idea of THE ALIENS being genetic constructs?  Because if the race
that flew the ship could "grow" something like that it would be easy
to "grow" the "aliens" presumbably to be warriors.

     Just a quick note about my last message about the plant
explosion.  I had forgotten about it being a fission reactor, but
that would support the idea of the impossiblility of the explosion
even more.  According to current technology, I know that it is in
the far future but just listen, it is the common agreement that
because of the high-temperature and pressures involved in even
acheiving a reaction the narrow range where the reaction is
sustained would be a self moderator{flame me out on this but it is
my view from the present state of technonlogy at the Tokamat
Accelerator at Princeton}

Ray
Caron@Blue

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 16:17:59 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Clearly this is how the ALIENS sequel will work

Many are speculating about what an ALIENs sequel would be like.
Many hints are left during the movie.

During the fight between the Queen alien and Ripley in the
waldo-suit, the alien touched her fingers briefly to Ripley's face
and said, under her breath, "remember."  Then she was cast out into
space and no doubt got sucked up into the Phantom zone.

Newt is raised on Earth and forgets her parents.  Soon it is
discovered that she has amazing strength and blood with a very low
pH.  Ripley, on the other hand, is going crazy with the Ka of the
alien within her, and keeps saying weird things like "take me back"
in sepulchral voices.  On her way back to the alien planet to regain
her sanity (On alien planet, sanity *very* serious) her ship is
stolen by a pirate.  The pirate is played by the same actor that
played Hicks, but he is *not* the same character.

Anyway, the resulting fight opens a gash in the Phantom zone, and
out plops the soulless body of the Queen at a convenient height for
safe re-entry.

(Did I mention that the alien planet blew up and they are actually
on the next planet out which moved into its orbit?)

They all land, and Ripley is drawn to the body of the queen.  After
a big ceremony with alien vestal virgins who somehow were
vacationing on the next planet out when the main one exploded, the
Ka of the queen is back.

Being a nasty old bitch, she starts attacking things, and the now
young-adult Newt has to fight her.  As they fight, Newt gets a hit
in, prompting the Queen to bite off her hand.  The Queen says to
Newt, "Ripley never told you what happened to your mother."  Newt
says, "She told me enough.  She told me YOU killed her!"

"No, Newt", says the Queen, "I am your mother!"

Newt can't take it, so she jumps off the mountaintop, only to fall
into the tractor beam of a ship flown by an artificial person.  As
they attain orbit, the drop a bomb down a tiny volcano shaft that
goes right down to the core of the planet, and the planet explodes.
(No doubt leaving the next planet out to reluctantly wander into
that orbit.)

In the debris, we see the Queen in her fighter ship, spinning out of
control but alive.

                          closing credits

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 15:35:42 GMT
From: vaxwaller!cw@caip.rutgers.edu (Carl Weidling)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

> franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>> desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be
>>practical.  This nullifies the whole calculation.
>    I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
> that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard
> fuel.  Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is
> hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather
> than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.
> I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to
> be collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be
> impractically large.

Isn't this the idea of the Bussard Drive (I may be remembering the
name wrong, but I think it was a serious proposal made maybe in the
60's), a sort of ramjet that only worked when the ship was moving at
high speed, popularized by Larry Niven in many of his science
fiction books?

Regards
Carl Weidling

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 86 23:26:32 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!jnp@caip.rutgers.edu (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

diana@enmasse.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes:
> desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>>   Alpha Centauri is about 4 LY away; to travel this distance in
>>10 months (ship time) you would have to travel at .9790c.  Certainly
>>not unreasonable.  To travel 20 LY in 10 months, .99913c.
>
> 480%
>
> That makes sense because lightyear is defined as the distance
> light travels in one year.  If you travel four light years in
> under four years, so are going faster than the speed of light,
> si'?  Also (4.8c) times (10 months) is (four years), the time it
> would take to travel four lightyears AT the speed of light.

By who's frame of reference?  I think that both of you may be
"right".

A 10 month trip (as viewed by the astronauts) would seem to take 4.8
years to an astronomer on earth.

Carl "BILLYUNS and BILLYUNS" Sagan wrote in his COSMOS book that by
approaching the speed of light (>>90%) a circumnavigation of the
entire galaxy could be made in aprox. 50 ship-years, which would
seem to earth-bound viewers to have taken hundreds of millions of
years.

I don't know the specifics of time dilation, but this fits the
notion I got from several explanations of relativity.

John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp

------------------------------

From: m128abo@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Ellis)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)
Date: 22 Aug 86 12:57:31 GMT

>>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be
>>practical.  This nullifies the whole calculation.
>
>   I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel.
>Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen
>and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than
>converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.  I'll
>try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be
>collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be impractically
>large.

One possibility for transgalactic travel would require sweeping up
*entire stars* in order to maintain constant {ac,de}celeration until
one arrived at one's destination. Presumably, stellar engineers
would forge black holes out of the material of many suns into some
peculiar geometry.

If GR permits such things, the truly cosmic traveller might wish to
never stop accelerating, and, by gulping up ever larger quantities
of stellar material, ultimately develop a voracious appetite for
galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so forth..  Perhaps one could
thus waste the entire universe, thereby participating as an active
agent in the ultimate apocolypse, assuming a closed cosmology.

michael

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86  09:55 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: aliens...original idea?

Does anyone remember a movie called "It! The Terror From Beyond
Space"?  Made in the early fifties, this flick scared the bejezus
out of me when I was a mere tot. It involved a spaceship landing on
Mars in order to determine the fate of the previous mission there.
While the crew are investigating the mystery, the creature who slew
the previous astronauts creeps into the ship through an open
hatchway (of course, no one realizes this until after take-off). The
rest of the movie shows the efforts of the astronauts trying to
destroy the creature as it slowly take over the ship, gradually
forcing them to take refuge in higher and higher levels of the ship.
As it breaks through to the uppermost level, where the survivors are
huddled, they finally don their space suits and evacuate the air
from the ship, killing the creature by suffocation. I thought of
this film the first time I saw 'Alien'. This creature even had the
habit of traveling through the ships ducts, where it brought its
victims. I thought it was an effective attempt at a horror/sf movie
for its time. Anyone else remember this gem? I haven't see it in
years...

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 13:11:48 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>>>   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
>>>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the
>>>back) the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would
>>>require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really
>>>is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard
>>>fuel.
>>
>>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit;
>>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid
>>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable.
>
>   All right then, explain how.  I'm looking forward to hearing
>your explanation of how this theoretical limit can be exceeded.  I
>suspect it is about as valid as Newman's energy machine -- for some
>reason I'm always suspicious when people challenge straightforward
>physics calculations with no details or calculations of their own.

Now wait just a second -- that's not quite what Adams is saying
(i.e. that the theoretical limit can be exceeded.)  I admit it
wasn't well phrased, but what he is saying is that if you are
willing to accept a 35-1 mass ratio you can still do it: 35-1 !=
impossible.

>>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be
>>practical.  This nullifies the whole calculation.
>
>   I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel.
>Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen
>and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than
>converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.  I'll
>try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be
>collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be impractically
>large.

Gee David, I didn't realize you knew so much about 100 percent
conversion drives and such -- tell me, what is the usual fuel for
100 percent mass-conversion?  What is it about the protons and
electrons in hydrogen that makes them so much more intractable?

Now I admit I don't know how to build a total-conversion reactor,
but I am suspicious that hydrogen would be at least as good as
anything else, and perhaps better -- easily ionized, easily
transported, and widely available (!).

By the way, did everyone notice that David desJardins has an
aphorism immortalized in CACM in the last couple of months?

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 86 1112-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #269
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 269

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 86 16:49:09 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elvish Rings and Swords

>Somehow Gandalf using the power of an Elven Ring, which was
>supposed to be kept VERY secret, for the most amazing fireworks the
>Hobbits had ever seen just does not click.  I feel that he received
>Narya more BECAUSE he was a lover of flame.  . . .

This seems much more logical.  Certainly it would be vital to the
West that no hint ever reach Sauron (and therefore, any of his
servants) that Gandalf was the bearer of one of the Three.  Using it
in prominent displays seems a very foolhardy thing to do in light of
this need.

Personally, I've seen no evidence at all that the Ring of Fire had
anything to do with actual fire.  I assume it was so named because
the brightness of its ruby resembled fire.

>When Gandalf is battling the Balrog in Moria he mentions that he is
>the wielder of the "Flame of Anor".  Now some believe that means
>Narya (myself included), but here's another possiblity: Glamdring
>his sword.  For Orcs anyways the Elven swords gleam with a bright
>light that they find painful (remember in The Hobbit when they
>battled under the Misty Mountains...).  This sword might be capable
>of doing the same to a Balrog???  Oh well, it's an idea...

An interesting idea, but it doesn't seem to me to hold.  Glamdring
was produced by Elves for use against Orcs.  The Balrogs were Maiar,
vastly more powerful than Orcs, and considerably more powerful than
Elves.  It doesn't seem logical that they would fear the light of
Elvish swords.  Certainly this one didn't seem to: it bore down on
Gandalf as fast as it could.

The only time when evil things seemed to fear Elvish artifacts
(Shelob fearing Galadriel's phial, for instance) was when those
artifacts had some influence from Valinor itself.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 86 16:54:23 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: TOLKIEN'S RIDDLE TO ENTER MORIA

>We now know this to mean "Speak _the word_ friend, and enter".  The
>word friend is, of course, mellon.

I'd better read that piece again.  I thought Gandalf's original
error was translating "say" as "speak", and that the correct
translation was "Say friend and enter".  The distinction between the
two words can be subtle.  I suppose it's even possible that the
Sindarin dialect used in the inscription used the same word for
both.

I'll have to check the appendices to see, if I can, which is right.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 86 17:51:31 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bombadil; Gollum

>Actually, Tom holds some power over the Ring. He could make it
>disappear.

Yet Gandalf preferred to say that the Ring had no power over him.  I
suppose the "disappearance" could have been some simple sleight of
hand.  Certainly Bombadil regarded the Ring as rather insignificant.

>And now, for some wanton speculation. I think Bombadil is a side
>effect of Melkor's discord to the Song of Illuvatar [sic].

Or perhaps of his later distortions of all the Valars' attempts to
shape Middle Earth.  According to the Silmarillion, that
interference caused Middle Earth finally to resemble neither the
design they had originally "sung" for Iluvatar, nor the disaster
that Melkor preferred.  So there was a great deal there foreseen by
neither party.  It's an interesting thought that Bombadil might have
come from that.

>2) Neither Gandalf nor Elrond know very much about him. They know
>about balrogs, about Sauron, about the Valar and the Maia and the
>rest; but Gandalf knows remarkably little about a major league
>entity in his own back yard.

I hardly think anybody, even of the Wise, can be expected to know
*everything* that's happened over multiple millenia over the whole
expanse of Eriador.  I don't know quite what "major league" means,
but if you mean that he was a great influence in local events, I
must point out that he was not.  He had withdrawn into bounds of his
own choosing, and exercised so little influence on the world outside
that almost nobody had ever even heard of him.  He was surely one of
the least of the Wise' concerns.

Yet in fact, the Elves did know of him, and Gandalf knew enough to
dismiss him as a possible keeper of the Ring.

Oh, important point I'd forgotten: in considering whether Bombadil
should be asked to receive the Ring, the council of Elrond
considered that, although Bombadil seemed to have power in the Earth
itself, Sauron had power to destroy the very Earth (I assume they
knew the current appearance of the land north of the Black Gate).
So we can assume that Bombadil's power was less than Sauron's.  Now,
does that tell us anything more about what he may be?

>4) The good from evil theme.  There is the whole bit about not
>killing Gollum because some unforseen good might yet come from him.
>Gandalf makes this point quite a few times. Where does he get this
>peculiar idea from? What good had ever come from Morgoth, Sauron,
>Ancalagon or the rest of the baddies in the mythos. This hope that
>good can come out of bad is, from Gandalf's view, not very
>supportable.

"Baddies"?  What a gentle term for what Sauron and Melkor were.

I don't think you are distinguishing what Gollum was; but Gandalf
did.  You cannot lump him with Sauron or Melkor: that's like
comparing a stinging insect with a volcanic eruption.  They were
vast, lust-filled, demanding utter dominion.  He was tiny, pitiable,
wretched, desiring only to recover "his precious", to eat fish in
peace, and to be left alone (after being revenged on Bilbo).  He was
a murderer, of course, and personally dangerous, but he was not a
mass murderer or enslaver.

The thing that Gandalf recognised, as soon as Bilbo had told the
story of the riddles, was that Gollum was either a hobbit himself,
or closely related.  Obviously, although the creature was by now
insane with the Ring's torment, there was still a core of strength
which kept the Ring from completely dominating him; that same core
of strength which Gandalf had so often observed in the hobbits he
knew, though they seemed soft and weak on the outside; the same
strength which, according to "The Hunt for the Ring", Sauron found
resisting all his inquisitions when Gollum wandered into Mordor.  He
could have overwhelmed that strength, but only by actually killing
Gollum.

And it was in that hobbitish strength that Gandalf sought the final
salvation of Middle Earth, if it was to be found anywhere.  It was
in Bilbo and Frodo; it was in the younger hobbits; and it was in
Gollum.  And in all those places, Gandalf needed to use it if he
could.

There also seems to have been about Gollum a wretched helplessness
that struck those who could dispose of him.  Bilbo felt it, even
when Gollum would have killed him; Gandalf felt it; and Frodo felt
it, after having declared that "he deserves death".  Even Sam, whom
Gollum utterly disgusted, spared him at the last moment on Orodruin.

Gollum is one of the finest and most terrifying touches in the
story, and he deserves careful study.  Lin Carter talks about him in
"A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings", if you'd care to see a
discussion.

>Now if Bombadil is a side effect of Melkor's song, Gandalf can have
>a good reason to believe in sparing Gollum.

Sorry, I don't follow this at all.  What have Bombadil's origins (or
Bombadil himself, in any way) to do with Gollum?

>The major point against (other than no real shred of plausable
>evidence) the proposition is the assertion that evil doesn't create
>anything. That would mean Melkor's song couldn't create Bombadil
>directly. But Illuvatar rechanneled the discord into his Song, so
>perhaps that's sufficient to cause creation.

I think the Silmarillion supports you in this.  Even if Evil could
create, it's obvious that Bombadil is not such a creation.  But the
entire creation of Middle Earth was distorted by Melkor's constant
attempts at destroying it, so a number of things happened that had
not been foreseen.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 86 20:22:19 GMT
From: elrod@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Doug Elrod)
Subject: Origin of hobbits: query

Has anyone seen anything published about the origins of hobbits in
Middle Earth?  I believe that someone posted a message to this group
a few months ago claiming them to be a type of man?!  I think that
they are a separate race created by Illuvatar (probably to handle
problems such as those created by rings -- note that Gollum was of
hobbit-kind).  The only real evidence I have found so far is
Treebeard's willingness to add them as a new class to the list of
"free people" (and he is well known for not being "hasty").

Mail to me if you like, and if any answer seems conclusive, I'll
post to the net.  Thanks.

Doug Elrod
ARPA:  delrod@celery.tn.cornell.edu
       delrod%celery.tn.cornell.edu@cu-arpa
UUCP: {ihnp4,cmcl2,decvax,vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!elrod
BITNET: L4oJ@CORNELLA
US Mail: Psychology Department, Uris Hall, Cornell University,
         Ithaca, New York 14853

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 86 21:03:23 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

>Hmmm... For what it's worth, Bombadil started out as the subject of
>a cutsey little poem, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," wherein
>Gberry also appears.

I have never found any of Tolkien's poetry "cutesy".  The poem
"Adventures of Tom Bombadil" is fun, and a capsule version of what
we see of him in LotR.  The book has other attractions for those so
inclined, such as Frodo's poem "The Sea Bell" (a rare poem for
hobbits, who almost never saw the sea), and Bilbo's delightful
"Errantry", which is said to have some relation to his poem on
Earendil, read at Rivendell.

>It seems, in fact, that the appearance of Tom was a
>spur-of-the-moment thing with JRRT, using a character he
>liked/loved in an odd context, and was just a moment of whimsey --
>which he never fully rationalized into the context of Middle-Earth.

"There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."  One of the attributes of a real world is that it
has vastly more components and dwellers than can be described in a
single work.  Complete explanation of every feature and person and
how they fit into Middle Earth would be quite impossible -- and it
would probably drag miserably if it were tried.  That Tolkien shows
us somebody who doesn't seem easily to fit the rest of Middle Earth
(and he certainly fits the Old Forest well enough) doesn't detract
from Middle Earth's reality -- it heightens it.

If Tom was indeed added on the spur of the moment, then Tolkien must
have the most carefully deliberated such spurs.  Remove him from the
story, and what happens?  The hobbits never acquire their swords
from the barrows -- in particular, Merry doesn't get the sword with
which he later helps kill the Lord of the Nazgul.  Tolkien points
out at the time that that sword had been forged with exactly that
enemy in mind.  Also, Frodo doesn't get the opportunity of the dream
where he saw Gandalf imprisoned.  So Tom certainly fits in the
stream of things.  He is by no means merely a pleasant diversion in
the plot.

>That he is NOT a Maia is clear, however; the Ring had no power over
>him (nor, I seem to recall, he over it), yet Gandalf's fear to take
>the Ring makes it clear that the Ring DOES have the power to
>corrupt a Maia.

This is a fine and an interesting point.  Gandalf fears that he
would yield to the Ring's temptation, and therefore fall to it; Tom
doesn't care about it.  But there are other clear differences
between them beyond simply Tom's perhaps not being a Maia.

Gandalf is charged with the defence of Middle Earth against Sauron,
but in the form of a Man, with his powers and his memories limited.
Though a Maia, he hasn't nearly the full resources that a Maia might
usually have.  And over so restricted a Maia, the Ring might very
well have power.

Tom is under no restriction but what he himself chooses.  He regards
Sauron and his "tricks" as irrelevant.  Perhaps for an unrestricted
Maia, the Ring presents no threat.

Or you could be absolutely right: Tom could be a being much more
powerful than Maiar, and unconcerned with their toys.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 86 20:13:13 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

curtis@leadsv.UUCP (John Curtis) writes:
>In the chapter "The White Rider", where Gandalf describes his fight
>with the Balrog, he states that after they hit the bottom of the
>abyss, he pursued the Balrog through very deep and dark passages.
>He says something along the lines of:
>  "Those tunnels were not made by Dwarves, Gimli son of Gloin. Far
>beneath the nethermost tunnels of Moria the Earth is gnawed by
>nameless things.  Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than
>he."
>
>   Older than one of the Ainur! Now perhaps Tolkien might have
>written this chapter before he formalized his "Creation Story", but
>I don't see this why the passage can't be taken at face value.
>Either Illuvatar made some beings BEFORE he created the Ainur (just
>for practice) ;-) ;-) OR there are some beings in Tolkien's cosmos
>that were not created by Illuvatar.

   Or Illuvatar didn't create all the Ainur at the same time, and
Sauron was one of the later ones to be created. Or age in Middle
Earth is measured from the time a being enters Ea, since the Outer
Darkness where Eru dwells is said to be beyond time as well as
space.  (Certainly when Gandalf talks about his death, he mentions
wandering beyond time). I do not see any problem with Sauron
entering Ea later than many of the other Ainur, and thus being
"younger" than them.

>One additional bit:
>   There is also a reference in _The_Hobbit_, when Bilbo was
>wandering through the goblins' tunnels after being seperated from
>Thorin and Co, about the original owners of the tunnels, who were
>there before the goblins, still "nosing around in odd corners and
>slinking about".

   I would imagine these were mostly beings like Ungoliant or some
of the earlier attempts at breeding a race of servants by Morgoth.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 06:17:00 GMT
From: context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford)
Subject: Re: Origin of hobbits: query

While there's no direct evidence that Illuvatar didn't create the
Hobbits, consider the following.

Despite their similarities to men, Hobbits resemble Dwarves and Ents
more in that they were much more interested in their own affairs
than those of others, and that they faded and disappeared as men
came to dominate the world.  (The same could be said of elves, but
we know about their origins explicitly.)

Dwarves were made by Arda (as I recall) and Ents by Yavanna, and
both species reflected the particular interests of their creators.
Both were allowed to exist by the will of Illuvatar, except that
their span was explicitly limited to the period of men's growth, and
they were to disappear when men reached their ascendancy.

Manwe interceded with Illuvatar on Yavanna's behalf when she wished
to create the Ents.  Might he not have also had the foresight to ask
for yet another race of beings? If so, that would explain their
similarities to the Dwarves and Ents.  Manwe of all the Valar was
most like Illuvatar (except for Melkor), and if he were to create a
race, it seems likely that they would resemble a race (men) that
Illuvatar himself created.  He was also the most aloof of the Valar,
so it's not unreasonable that the elves knew nothing of Hobbits.

This would also explain why Gandalf, being a Maia of Manwe, might
take particular interest in the Hobbits and their affairs.

Comments, anyone?

Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 86 1136-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #270
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 270

Today's Topics:

        Films - Heavy Metal & Run Silent Run Deep (2 msgs) &
                Star Trek IV & The Fly (2 msgs) &
                Gross and Disgusting Movies (2 msgs) &
                SF Movies on Video (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 05:52:27 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

On the subject of SF films, nobody has yet mentioned 'Heavy Metal'.
Despite all its obvious faults, it has some classic moments.  (Like
the scene with the hijacked buxom young earthlette and the robot:
Robot: "Do you think you could marry me?"  BYE: "Nah, I'd always be
worried about coming home and finding you screwing the toaster")

(Oh yeah, and one of my personal favorites - "The Strategic Defence
Initiative: An Overview", promo vid by the DOD.  SF or what?)

Hugh
ARPA:   Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 22:16:53 GMT
From: ihuxn!gadfly@caip.rutgers.edu (Gadfly)
Subject: Run Silent Run Deep

>>Sort of a silly title, really.  After all, "In space, no one can
>>hear >[your engines]."
> It seems to me I read that the original idea for the film was
> supposed to be a tense human vs. aliens film.  It was supposed to
> be a science fiction version of RUN SILENT RUN DEEP.  The concept
> of the film changed (and not for the better) but the kept the
> title.

I agree--"Run Silent Run Deep" is the archetypical submarine movie,
which I remember more for its having Don Rickles in the cast than
anything else, but it was a tense one.  Perhaps more cerebral was
the destroyer vs. sub battle of "The Enemy Below".  Anyone want to
discuss submarine flicks?

ken perlow
(312)979-7753
..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 07:19:12 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Submarine Flicks

>I agree--"Run Silent Run Deep" is the archetypical submarine movie,
>which I remember more for its having Don Rickles in the cast than
>anything else, but it was a tense one.  Perhaps more cerebral was
>the destroyer vs.  sub battle of "The Enemy Below".  Anyone want to
>discuss submarine flicks?

Both are good films with ENEMY BELOW probably having the edge.  (It
has been too long since I saw RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP.  Both seem
rather Hollywoodish beside DAS BOOT (THE BOAT).  That is probably
the most realistic submarine film and one of the tensest.  I
understand that the one cinematic convention is that on board the
men quickly stripped to wearing at most underwear and often nothing.
The book makes a point of how hot it is on the sub, but I don't know
if it talked about the state of undress of the men.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 07:44 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST IV
Cc: StarTrek^.x@Xerox.COM,Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>,
Cc:  crash!pnet01!victoro@nosc.ARPA (Victor O'Rear), mab@ads.ARPA
Cc: (Mike

***SPOILER***

Now, it happens that a document, labeled "ST IV: The Voyage Home
Rev.  Shooting Script March 11, 1986" has fallen into my lap.  Since
the info it contains fits in with almost everything else I've heard,
I believe this to be genuine.

Overall, I'm very impressed.  While the plot, as we've heard from
the rumors, seems both familiar and silly in spots, there are enough
charming character bits, so much of the Old Star Trek, that I think
it's going to be a fun movie.  I also think the special effects will
be terrific; very much in the Star Wars vein where they marvelously
enhance the story rather than the TMP style where they take over.

The movie opens, after the (surprise, everyone!) dedication to the
Challenger crew, on the bridge of the USS Saratoga, featuring, at
last, a female Captain.  A strange alien probe is approaching,
neutralizing starships as it goes, and heading straight for Earth.
How original.

From there we go to the Federation Council where Kirk and Co are
being tried, in abstentia as they've taken refuge on Vulcan.  The
Klingon ambassador even gets to put his two cents in, as does Sarek.

Back on Vulcan, Kirk and Co. decide to return to Earth and face the
Council.  Frustratingly, the question of Saavik's pregnancy is NOT
ANSWERED in this script, but only hinted at, mostly by Kirk's line
"Your leave has been granted for good and proper cause.  How are you
feeling?"

Spock has his memory back, intellectually, at least.  But he's back
to being cold and unemotional, which, of course, drives McCoy nuts.
("I liked him better before he died.")  Amanda shows up for a silly
emotional scene.

Back on Earth, the probe shows up, Starfleet launches everything
they have at it, but it does no good.  As the probe beams its
message in, clouds form all over the Earth, rain starts, floods,
etc.  At this point, Kirk and Co. show up in the Bird of Prey,
listen to the message the Probe is sending out, and quickly
determine that the sounds are whale songs.  Well, since the whales
are extinct, and seem to be the only ones who could figure out what
the probe wants, Kirk and Co decide to go back in time to pick up a
few.  After an exciting ride, they do arrive in 1986, but have a
little problem with their dilithium crystals.  Don't worry; Spock's
got an answer.

Our Heroes break into teams: Chekov and Uhura are sent to find a
nuclear reactor to collect some photons that will solve their
dilithium crystal problem.  This leads them to the USS Enterprise
where Chekov gets captured, and injured while trying to escape.
(Yes, Chekov gets hurt again.)  Spock and Kirk go to track down a
couple of whales which they find in captivity, and, of course, Kirk
gets involved with a pretty marine biologist.  Scotty, Sulu and
McCoy go in search of something they can use as a tank and get it by
teaching a manufacturer to make transparent aluminum.  (I can't wait
to see the scene with Scotty working a Macintosh!)

They reunite when Chekov gets injured, breaking into a hospital with
McCoy rescuing him (and some random patients) from our barbaric 20th
century medicine.  Our whale expert manages to tag along.  The
whales get released from captivity and are just about to get speared
by whalers when Kirk and Co. beam them up.  They all arrive back in
the 23rd century in the nick of time.  Lots of excitement, including
Kirk's heroic effort to Save the Whales from a sinking Bird of Prey.
The whales hear the probe's message and sing back in classic Close
Encounters conversation.  The storms clear, a rainbow appears,
everyone is happy.

Even the Federation Council.  They drop charges against everyone but
Kirk, who they demote to Captain.  And give him a new ship.  Guess
which?  I'll give you a hint, the number is NCC 1701 - A.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 17:52 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: The Fly (SPOILER)

1.  Regarding the dream sequence: I was much more impressed by this
than the dream in Aliens.  First of all, there was little indication
that it was a dream until the very end, and even then I was willing
to believe it was possible (except that I got confused about the
time factor, because it didn't seem like a grub that big could
gestate in the time I thought had passed).  More importantly, I
didn't know how much had been in the dream and how much was real.
In particular, I wasn't sure whether she was actually pregnant.
This ambiguity added to the tension of the following scenes.  I
expected to find out when she went to visit Brundlefly, but they
kept the suspense up until she went out to the car.

2.  Suspension of disbelief.  Given the original premise, I didn't
have too much trouble dealing with mingling of DNA sequences,
although it is pretty amazing that the result was viable.  I have
more trouble believing that a matter transporter would distinguish
between organic and inorganic matter.  My natural presumption is
that a transporter works at the molecular or atomic level, but
organicness is a macroscopic property.  Even if there is something
special about organic molecules (they are generally pretty complex)
this would not explain the results in the failed experiments, such
as turning a baboon inside out.  Finally, his statements about the
computer not understanding flesh nearly sent me into hysterics.

barmar

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 14:10:06 GMT
From: glasgow.glasgow!jack@caip.rutgers.edu (Jack Campin)
Subject: Re: The Fly

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this
>demented director?  I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome.  I
>have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too.  Are they similar
>in quality to The Fly or just pure gore?  If they are like The Fly,
>I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore for
>gore's sake.

Videodrome is ghoulish and superb - it's an allegory about what TV
does to your mind, with some of the most repellent special effects
I've ever seen (e.g.  the bits where the hero inserts a videotape
into a gaping slot in his belly, or where a revolver grows into the
flesh of his arm). Also includes some fairly convincing S/M and a
great sendup of Marshall MacLuhan.

The only other Cronenberg film I've seen is "Crimes of the Future",
which I saw at a film festival ten years ago and may never have gone
on general release - I suppose the major movie distributors just
couldn't see the market potential in in a movie about a cancer
clinic full of homosexual pus fetishists ...

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Aug 86 09:31:20-PDT
From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Gross and disgusting movies

Several times now I've seen someone (here or in newpaper reviews)
describe The Fly as an extraordinary gross movie.  Yet most of these
people have ALSO described it as a good or even great movie.  This
boggles my mind: from my taste perspective gross and great are
inherently contradictory terms. SOOO....

Question number one (for my husband): For those unfortunates who
have seen Andy Warhol's Frankenstein (or who have seen as much of it
as they could stand) how does the Fly compare in grossness?  Not as
gross?  Grosser but not as sick?  Special effects that were equally
a waste of good celluloid?

Question number two (I am probably going to regret this): the
general subject of gross and disgusting movies.  I am not so much
interested in which movie rates as the most disgusting of all time
as in WHY movies are made (increasingly so, it seems to me) which
are disgusting.  I'd especially like to hear comments from people
who enjoy movies like, say, the Fly (the trailers for which I cannot
bear to watch).  What is the interest?  Technical excellence?  A
thrill?  Do you shut your eyes during the gross parts?  I am serious
about this and don't mean to denigrate anyone for having different
taste than me; I'm just curious about what I find a rather
interesting phenomenon.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 17:01:10 GMT
From: minnie!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Gross and disgusting movies

From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

>Question number one (for my husband): For those unfortunates who
>have seen Andy Warhol's Frankenstein (or who have seen as much of
>it as they could stand) how does the Fly compare in grossness?  Not
>as gross?  Grosser but not as sick?  Special effects that were
>equally a waste of good celluloid?

It's been many years since I have seen Andy Warhol's Frankenstein.
It seems to me that The Fly is perhaps more gross but not as sick.

At least in most portrayals of Dr. Frankenstein, he was a somewhat
deranged man.  Warhol pictured him as sick and perverse.  Seth
Brundle (The Fly) was a man who was overtaken by a severe problem,
one which he did his best to cope with.

I considered answering the second part of your article but I found I
was a little confused as to why I watch those kinds of movies.  I
can say that it isn't for the gore.  And no, I don't shut my eyes
during the gross parts.

Chris Grevstad
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris
ihnp4!nrcvax!chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 21:57:53 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video

> Firefox  (Clint Eastwood as a Russian? Hard to believe)

Don't.  Eastwood does not play a Russian.  He plays a US pilot
recruited to steal a new Russian MIG which is extremely fast, and
undetectable to radar (lots of other advantages, too, but you get
the idea), and therefore, a terrible threat to Western security.
His closest connection to Russia is that he speaks Russian fluently:
learnt from his grandmother, or something like that.  And of course,
he has the appropriate list of personal problems to complicate the
mission at the wrong moments.

Not actually too bad a film: there have been much worse.  The
red-bashing and the propaganda are perhaps halfway controlled.  And
some of the photography is great.  Multi-mach chases over the
snow-draped Urals and the arctic ice cap.

> That's a partial list.  I will provide add-ons later.

I'll be waiting.  I'm a little surprised that Raiders of the Lost
Ark didn't make it to this edition.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Aug 86 10:38:49-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Movies on Video, Part III

Here's another addition to the video list of sf/fantasy movies.  By
the way, send ratings directly to me (5=must see, 1=skip, and
varying degrees between).

  Aliens from Spaceship Earth
  Alien Dead
  Alien Prey

  Cavegirl
  Cat from Outer Space, The  (Disney film)
  Conquest  (bad.....)
  Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

  Dark Star
  Damnation Alley
  Dreamscape

  Fly, The  (the original)

  Glitterball
  Godzilla vs. Megalon
  Gorath
  Gorgo

  Hangar 18  (this one has a 2nd, unrecalled title)
  Heartbeeps  (w/Andy Kaufman and Bernadette Peters)

  Ironmaster  (franco-italian with a lot of grunting)
  Invincible Barbarian  (another franco-italian)

  Killers from Space

  Martian Chronicles, The  (a 3-volume set from the TV
                            mini-series/special)
  Man From Atlantis, The  (w/Patrick Duffy from the TV show)

  1984  (w/Richard Burton)

  Purple Monster Strikes, The  (cliffhanger serial w/martians)

  Return of the Fly
  Return to Oz  (Disney)

  Santa Claus Conquers the Martians  (w/Pia Zadora)

  Thunderwarrior  (another franco-italian)
  Time Rider
  Time Travelers

  Ultimate Warrior  (w/Yul Brynner)

  Varrow Mission, The

  Warlords of the 21st Century
  Wizard of Oz  (the original w/Judy Garland)

* Zombies of the Stratosphere (a personal favorite: Commando Cody
vs. the Martians in another cliffhanger serial.  It has Leonard
Nimoy as a Martian who can breathe underwater).

I have not included any of the daily animated shows but some of
these available are: Robotech (good, but only three vols. avail.),
He-Man, Transformers, and a host of others.

Coming in October: _SPACE_CAMP_ Not exactly the best movie but
somewhat entertaining and, besides, currently I'll watch anything
with Lea Thompson in it.

Walter

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 86 19:27:12 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II

> Doctor Who: Revenge of the Cybermen  (w/Tom Baker)

I don't understand.  Why, from more than 20 years of continuous
production, do you choose this particular Doctor Who?  Amusing, but
certainly not one of the best.  Tom Baker is in great form, but the
special effects people aren't.

> King Kong  (1933 w/Fay Wray)

Did anybody else find that this was better, even in its effects,
than the later version (which gave Jessica Lange such a bad name
until she proved so very well what she could do)?

> Logan's Run

For anybody who has only seen the abortive TV series that tried to
stand on this one's feet, take heart: the film is *far* better.
Micheal York is great as Logan.  Pardon my memory, but I can't
remember who played the woman with whom he "run"s.  She is also very
good, though.

> Planet of the Apes  (the whole series)

The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based, is, to my
mind, far better than the films, even the first one.  The main story
is contained between a most interesting prologue and epilogue.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 86 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #271
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 271

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Chase & Koontz &
                     Lindsay & McIntyre & Plauger & Swift

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:08:28 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: R. Daneel Olivaw

I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to
EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree?

Sarek
st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Aug 86 15:09:50 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: story query

>This was proposed in a science fiction story I read a while back (I
>forget title and author). A scientist invented a time machine and
>decided to send a chemistry book back to the ancient Greeks. He
>succeeded. However, the man he had hired to translate the chemistry
>book only translated the parts of the book that the ancient Greeks
>knew (basic atomic structure, etc.)

This sounds like Asimov's "The Red Queen's Race" (I wouldn't have
recognized it but it showed up in some questions for our trivia bowl
written by a friend with a major interest in alternate worlds.)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 16:15:30 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: _The_Game_of_Fox_and_Lion_ by Robert R. Chase

I haven't heard of Robert R. Chase before.  My loss, if he has
written other books and they are as good as this one.  It re-hashes
old themes: war, superman (the main character has artificially
enhanced intelligence, the "bad guys" have enhanced strength and
endurance), politics, and so on and on.  But it held my interest and
made me think by using these old themes in pretty original ways.

Chase also has a pretty good turn of phrase.  Some random snippets
of conversation to show the general flavor:

    "I have been sane for years, and it is much less than it is
    cracked up to be."

    "Don't prattle on things beyond your understanding.  Even now,
    if you had any true penitence, I might intercede for you.  But
    all you have is fear for your own wretched hide.  To regret
    doing a wrong simply *because* it is wrong -- well, I can see
    from your face that the idea fills you with complete
    incomprehension.  No, Couteau, your disloyalty is exceeded only
    by your shortsightedness.  There is little in you for salvation
    and scarcely enough for damnation."

    "There are some holy men here.  There are even more who could
    be.  I, however, coming to Ariel, considered transubstantiation
    and the Parousia one with phlogiston and the houses of the
    zodiac.  'Holiness' was a meaningless word."  "Then why did you
    come here?" she asked.  "For the best reason in the world," he
    said lightly.  "To keep on breathing."

    "I am just about as clever and farseeing as my legends credit me
    with being.  I can win this war, but even I cannot establish
    peace."

This fluent way with words, and the fact that the book deals with
interesting ethical issues in a relatively deep non-sophomoric
fashion makes the book well worth reading.  And the fact that it is
fun also makes it enjoyable to read.  Very *very* nicely done.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 9:08:01 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: STRANGERS, by Dean R. Koontz

STRANGERS, Dean R. Koontz, G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1986,
ISBN 0-399-13143-4, 526 pages.

I thought it might be worth mentioning this book to the list; I just
ran across it on the "new book" shelf at the St. Louis Public
Library and read it this weekend. It was not classified by them as
SF, but as regular fiction; however, I always thought of Koontz as
an SF author, and I would define this book as SF. To give details as
to why would be a spoiler, though, so you'll have to trust me...

It is much like the usual Stephen-King-type of supernatural
thriller, and in fact there is a back-cover blurb from King. (Also
one from John D. MacDonald, and one from "Mary Higgins Clark" -- who
is she? I do not recognize the name.)

It does have a fairly gripping quality to it, and I enjoyed it more
than I expected to. The ending seemed rather weak, though, and not
up to the quality of the rest of the book.

A non-spoiling mini-summary: A number of people, in different
locations across the US, unknown to each other, begin having unusual
psychological episodes, phobias, and obsessions. The book follows a
half-dozen of them in detail, over a period of days, tracing the
development of these effects, and bringing out the threads of
commonality which bind these strangers to one another. They
eventually join one another and discover the cause and their true
relationship.

Speaking of Koontz, the "Also by" page (is there a better or
"official" name for this page in a book [the one before the title
page where they list other books by the same author]?) lists the
following titles: DARKFALL, PHANTOMS, WHISPERS, THE VISION, and
NIGHT CHILLS. None of these ring a bell with me, and none sound like
SF -- has Koontz moved away from SF to "horror/thrillers" instead?
Anyone have anything to say about these other books, or other things
by Koontz?

Regards, Will

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 09:25:47 cet
From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Commentary on David Lindsay

                           David Lindsay,
                        the Arcturan Voyager
                                 by
                         Gary A. Allen, Jr.

David Lindsay is a unique phenomenon in Science Fiction. He was a
contemporary of Jules Verne and H.G. Wells.  However, he was so far
ahead of its time that today he is widely regarded as an author
without equal.

Lindsay's history as an author is both sad and interesting. Lindsay
was born on 3 March 1878 in a London suburb.  Until about 1916, he
worked as an insurance clerk for Lloyd's of London and had not
written a single book.  In 1916 at age 38, he married and opted to
give up his secure job as a clerk to take up writing.  His first
book is in the opinion of many his greatest achievement.  This book
was entitled A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS and was published in 1920.  His
second book THE HAUNTED WOMAN was published one year later.  THE
HAUNTED WOMAN is regarded by some commentators as being even better
than A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS.

Both books were commercial failures and were remaindered. A VOYAGE
TO ARCTURUS sold only 596 copies from a press run of 1430 copies.
The London Times panned the book without mercy, and it was subjected
to ridicule by contemporary literary critics. It should be
emphasized that these first two books represented the commercial
high point of Lindsay's career as an author.  His later books, which
even by modern standards were inferior to the first two, fared even
worse in the commercial world.  By 1939 after failing to find a
publisher for his last book THE WITCH, Lindsay gave up writing and
turned to running a boarding house for a living.  On 6 June 1945,
David Lindsay, a broken and despondent man, died from a tooth
infection.

The writings of David Lindsay would have died a dusty death along
with their author had not Victor Gollancz, a friend, republished A
VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS in 1946, one year after Lindsay's death.  Then
something truly marvelous happened: 26 years after the book had been
written, it achieved a limited popularity.  Even so, it was not
popular with the general public.  Instead it was an underground
success with England's literary elite.

One of Lindsay's early fans was the Christian apologist C.S. Lewis.
Lewis wrote about Lindsay in a letter to Charles Brady:

    The real father of my planet books is David Lindsay's A VOYAGE
    TO ARCTURUS, which you will also revel in if you don't know it.
    I had grown up on Wells' stories of that kind, but it was
    Lindsay who first gave me the idea that the "scientifiction"
    appeal could be combined with the "supernatural" appeal.

From that time on A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS was considered required
reading among England's literary elite, and yet his books were once
again out of print and seemed destined for obscurity.  It didn't
happen, as about every 15 years a reprint would turn up.  His works
have never had a wide popularity.  Nevertheless, Lindsay's books
have always maint-ained a core of devoted readers that refuses to
dissipate with time.  Lindsay himself realized this would occur and
once commented to Gollancz: "Somewhere in the world, someone will be
reading a book of mine every year. " Many books and articles have
been written about Lindsay and A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS.  The following
are the more important commentaries:

    The Strange Genius of David Lindsay    by John Baker      1970
    The Haunted Man                        by Colin Wilson    1979
    David Lindsay                          by Gary K. Wolfe   1982

The story of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS has a rather mundane beginning.
By page 39 (page references refer to the Gregg press edition which
is a reprint of the 1920 original), one is seriously thinking of
flinging the book into the trash can.  In the first 39 pages all
that apparently happens is that the 3 principle characters meet and
are transported from the Earth to an alien planet which will be the
scene of action.  The reader is accosted with some rather bizarre
names: The three chief characters are Maskull, Krag, and Nightspore.
The alien planet is called Tormance.  If the reader had pitched the
book into the trash before reaching Tormance he would have made a
big mistake.  The boredom of the first 39 pages and the funny names
are all calculated for an effect.  The transition from Earth to
Tormance is absolutely breathtaking.  The closest analogy I can
think of is from the movie THE WIZARD OF OZ where Dorothy walks from
her house into the land of Oz, the film changes from black and white
to color, and Dorothy announces, "You know Toto, I don't think we're
in Kansas anymore."  From that point on the reader is kept in a
perpetual state of information overflow.  I'm not talking about the
overflow as in a low grade Swords-and-Sorcery novel where the author
is pouring forth zillions of proper nouns without definition.
Rather, we're speaking about concepts, symbolism and fast paced
action. David Lindsay did something that no one else in SF achieved
in that he pushed the SF literary form to its limits and had then
gone beyond.  The story of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS could not be
expressed in any other medium.

The chief character, Maskull has discovered himself on a world where
one grows and discards new senses and awarenesses with seeming
abandon.  The premise upon which the novel is based is the concept
of God as an immoral and unethical entity.  The true God of Tormance
is Surtur. Surtur is a creative deity from which all life emanates.
However an anti-God, Shaping, has overthrown Surtur and dominates
Tormance. Shaping feeds on life itself by giving the life force a
physical form.  Maskull is unwittingly thrown into the middle of
this cosmic struggle between these two deities.  Maskull was sent to
Tormance by the personification of Surtur, Krag.  However he was
literally left naked and totally ignorant of the true state of
affairs upon his arrival on Tormance.  Shaping, the god of lies, has
the first crack at Maskull.  From there the story unfolds as Maskull
travels through the surrealistic landscape of Tormance to his own
ultimate destruction and resurrection.

One can read A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS for pure entertainment.  There is
lots of action and interesting characters are brought in with almost
wild abandon.  Lindsay creates plot devices, SF concepts, and
sensual imagery that I've seen no where else.

The real thrill to this book, however, is in its intellectual
challenge.  Everything in this book has triple nested symbolism.
The name Tormance can be broken down to romance, torment, dominance.
Pain is associated with Surtur, while pleasure is associated with
Shaping.  The name Maskull leads to man and skull, which symbolizes
the conflict of the spirit and the body.  Everything in the story is
color coded.  There are five colors on Tormance based on two color
systems, which in turn are based on the two stars of the Arcturan
system.  The first color system is from the star Branchspell and
uses the colors yellow, red, and blue.  The second color system is
from the star Alppain and uses the colors jale, ulfire, and blue.
Branchspell is the larger star and has associations with Shaping.
Alppain is a small blue binary companion and is associated with
Surtur.  The colors red and jale are compliments and associated with
feeling.  The colors yellow and blue are also compliments and
associated with relation.  The colors blue and ulfire form the last
compliments and are associated with existence. If a creature appears
in the plot and it is colored red and ulfire, the reader knows that
the creature has the qualities of feeling and existence and is
affected by both stars and deities.  By now it should be clear by
what I mean by information overflow.

The theme of the book is a SF presentation of the philosophies of
Nietzsche and Schopenhauer.  If you are not overwhelmed by the
information or the symbolism, then the philosophy will blow you
away.  His works demonstrate the power of SF as a consciousness
expansion aid and a medium for abstract thinking.  I strongly
recommend the works of David Lindsay.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 01:35:17 GMT
From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The Initial Voyages of the Starship Enterprise

   The book is in fact called _Enterprise: The First Adventure_, and
arrived at my pet bookstore yesterday.  Except for the first couple
chapters which I read yesterday, I read the whole thing (371 pages)
at a single sitting which concluded just a few minutes ago.
Retroactive continuity is a difficult task, (though more and more
writers seem to attempt it these days) but in my opinion McIntyre
does a good job, neither expanding the characters' pasts beyond
credibility through wild speculation, nor smugly inserting excessive
hints of things we know are to come.  Not that the latter are wholly
nonexistent--the book ends with one, in fact, that had me chuckling
aloud.  My only complaint was that the alien spacecraft, which
sounded suspiciously like the _Fesarius_ at first, had me mistakenly
expecting a tie-in with the First Federation.  All in all, a solidly
entertaining new STAR TREK novel.  I give it a high 2, perhaps a 3,
on the -4 to +4 scale.

pH

P.S. I anticipate with interest comments on McIntyre's version of
Janice Rand's past.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 22 Aug 86 16:10:21-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: P.J. Plauger

I picked up a used copy of The 1976 World's Best SF (edited by
D.A.Wollheim) and found it has a story by P.J. Plauger, "Child of
all Ages".  I believe this is the same P.J. Plauger that cs people
know as the author of The Elements of Programming Style, etc.  I
enjoyed the story and wonder if anyone knows of any other stories
he's written (short stories in magazines or novels).

There was a Barrington Bayley story in this book, btw, which was
interesting as well.  (I remember there were some questions about
Bayley as well as an argument about his writing quality a couple
months ago.)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Aug 86 15:09:31 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Silverlock reference query

>My wife and I have both recently read _Silverlock_, and of course
>we spent quite a bit of time picking out all the references.  One
>that I couldn't place is the reference to the talking horses and
>the Yahoos.  Could anyone out there send me mail and clear up the
>matter?

Before you read another piece of modern SF, read GULLIVER'S TRAVELS;
the reference is to book 4, the ]voyage among[ the Houhnhyms (I know
I'm missing several letters in that spelling). This is the part that
never appears in shortened versions, summaries, etc., because Swift
was being bitter about all humans rather than merely satirical about
clumps of them.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 86 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #272
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 272

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 05:52:27 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit) writes:

> [...] The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a >
time loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with > this?
Am I the only one to have ever thought of such a thing?

Try 'By His Bootstraps', a short(ish) story by Robert Heinlein, 
published in the anthology 'Spectrum 1' (selected & edited by Kingsley
Amis and Robert Conquest).

This story gets my vote for the best time-loop plot ever, executed 
with the usual RH polish.  I shan't tell you anything about it, other
than it features the kind of mind bending causal loops you mention.

Hugh ARPA:  Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:35 EDT
From: David H. Kaufman <Sr.Kaufman@SPEECH.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment
To: Erich W Rickheit <ulowell!rickheit%caip.rutgers.edu@MIT-AI.ARPA>

From: ulowell!rickheit@caip.rutgers.edu (Erich W Rickheit)
>[Discussion of a murder mystery based on a pistol in a time loop]
>The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a time
>loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with this? Am I
>the only one to have ever thought of such a thing?

I don't remember offhand which book it was in (The Stainless Steel
Rat Saves The Universe, perhaps?) but Harry Harrison plays this
trick with the villain of his novel, a malevolent character called
simply "He".  "He" is determined to destroy the Special Corps, and
the Stainless Steel Rat chases him all the way through the time
loop, ending up victorious but very confused.

One of my favorite time-travel scenes - it's from a Stainless Steel
Rat book, but I think from a different one - is when the rat goes
back in time to join himself watching a spaceship disappear: the
first time through, he's obnoxious and witty and pleased with
himself (as usual); the second time through he's on the receiving
end of his own wit and ends up rather disgruntled.

DHK

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 86 01:07:46 GMT
From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf)
Subject: Re: A Man Goes Insane While Pondering Time Travel Experiments

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>I was pondering the question of time travel quite recently, while
>trying to think up a story using that concept. I tried to come up
>with some sort of "temporal physics" or "laws of time" that would
>eliminate all the paradoxes that go along with it (pretty
>ambitious, eh--but ultimately futile). And after reading all the
>current postings about time travel, I'm more confused than ever. Is
>there any way at all to zap through time and not contradict the
>laws of the universe? Its enough to make one swear off time travel
>forever (but I still watch Doctor Who, paradoxes and all! :-).

Sorry to post this, but you came through on the fangs of a daemon,
so...

Try reading Roadmarks by Roger Zelazny.  In there, he has a form of
time travel that seems to avoid such things as paradoxes.  While you
are on the subject though, what is wrong with paradoxes?  After all,
just because it appears to be a paradox doesn't mean that it can't
exist, does it?

cory
VOICE:  (714) 788 0709
UUCP:   {ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax}!ucrmath!hope!corwin
ARPA:   ucrmath!hope!corwin@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
USNAIL: 3637 Canyon Crest apt G302
        Riverside Ca.  92507

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 16:32:41 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Time Travel / Laws of conservation

> desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
>> <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
>>[Sending mass backwards in time should liberate energy, so]
>>this might solve both our energy AND garbage problems.
> Presumably sending objects into the past would *consume* energy -
> it is only sending them into the future that would produce energy.

I don't think you've thought it out quite thoroughly enough, David.
Sending an object "back in time" would consume energy *in* *the*
*past*, but would indeed release energy now, just as sending mass
into the future would release energy now and consume it later.  Look
at a Feynman-like diagram:

->(energy)(c)-------------->
           ^
            <------                    ^
   (a)------------>(b)(energy)->

Take an object (located at event a) and send it back in time (event
b).  Total mass for the universe decreases in that instant, and is
replaced by some energy.  When the object arrives in the past (event
c), total mass of the universe *increased*, so energy is consumed.
Note that this is the same as what happens when one looks at a
positron as an electron traveling backwards in time... an electron
(a) and some energy exist at first, then a pair-production occurs
(c), meaning we now have two electrons and a positron, and finally
we have anihilation (b) and are back with just one electron and some
energy.

Also, returning to the old chestnut of publishing a time/place and
waiting for messages from the future, it seems you might have to
supply the energy to manifest any messages the future might send
you.  The notion of needing a target to send back to was handled
fairly nicely in "Thrice Upon a Time" by Hogan, one of the few
time-travel stories that I found enjoyable (other than the classic
Heinlein ones... (the classic ones, mind you, not the more recent
"Lazarus and friends flail randomly around in space and time"
flapdoodle)).

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 15:11 EST
From: JimC@a
Subject: Time Travel

One of the problems of discussions of time travel is that so many
people assume it to be a valid topic of philosophic discussion.  In
fact, the truth is that time travel is an *imaginary* construct
which has a certain, fictional, or mythic, validity but which has no
basis in reality, no matter what bizarre models physicists have come
up with to explain the behavior of subatomic particles.

The reason for this is simple: time travel is impossible.  It's
impossible for one chief reason--it violates causality.  No matter
what scheme you come up with, including parallel universes, time
travel involves the violation of causality.  The problem with
violating causality is that it introduces a fundamental
contradiction in the nature of reality: stated simply, if causality
is violated, then reality itself would not be possible.  Now many
things are possible in our universe, but not everything that can be
imagined is possible, and especially not things that are true
contradictions (as opposed to "paradoxes," which are apparent
contradictions).  The causal stream is fundamental to all phenomena,
and time is not so much a function of clock movement (the common
human abstraction of the phenomenon, itself a kind of fiction) as
the *change* of the underlying particles that compose all things.
Time is thus universal change, and change is unalterable once it
happens, otherwise it could not occur in the first place.  This is
the very nature and definition of reality.  Time travel, a perfect
example of a true contradiction, conveniently ignores all this for
the sake of interesting plot and story development.

Very often writers talk about time travel as a form of space travel,
equating temporality with spaciality.  But when you examine the two
things closely, you can see that the analogy quickly breaks down.
For one thing, time, i.e., change, is a property of space, not
something separate.  Time is a dynamic process; it isn't tangible;
it isn't even real.  It's the human generalization for the vast
number of subatomic changes that have been occurring ever since the
Big Bang first got everything going.  It's the evolutionary
difference between what happens now and what happens next.  Redefine
that process (as you must when you introduce a notion like time
travel) so that the vector can work in the opposite direction on a
macroscopic scale, then you have a universe that cannot logically
exist as we know it.

Like many bogus notions in art, philosophy and religion, time travel
says more about human fancy to believe what it wants than human
reason to ascertain what is actually true.  In my experience, the
latter has always been stranger, more wonderful and ultimately more
"imaginative" than anything our poor brains can concoct in their
pitiful attempts to play God.

James Cortese

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 08:10 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Gold Coin Revisited
Cc: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu

>>   [This bring to mind a book by I. M. Notsurewho >>called 'Time
>>and Again' which held the theory that to travel through time

   That is a great way of dealing with an unknown author's name, but
the author is Richard Matheson.
   I remember going to the bookstore (W------) in San Diego which is
mentioned in Time and Again. On my last visit I noticed it was no
longer there, perhaps driven out of business?

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 22:35:25 GMT
From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter)
Subject: Re: A Sane Man Proposes A Time Travel Experiment

> Your mechanism strikes me strongly as Deus Ex Machina, unless you
> can explain why the character should expect to find a gun in the
> drawer when he opens it to shoot his victim, since he has not yet
> planted the gun at that point, nor why he should expect the drawer
> to be empty when he goes back to plant the gun; there is no way
> for him to know that his action was the cause of the gun being
> there.

There is a story about a time/travel parallel universe society.  In
this story a group has extracted historical individuals from some
timelines (Khan, Catherine, Ivan, Hitler, etc) as infants and raised
them in alternative universes as laborers and average people.  The
scientist who developed the time/space/universe doorways they use to
move around finally objects to the exploitive behavior of the group
but they get control of the devices to open these doorways and trap
him in a particular time line.  To get out of it he decides he will
come back to save himself through some particular doorway and then
proceeds to be rescued by himself, which he then sets out to do.  He
actually shows up as 6 of himself together and 6 of a friend (one of
the relocated) also trapped with him.

I can't remember who wrote it or what it was called but it struck me
as very good reading when I read it many years ago.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 23:10:56 GMT
From: ihlpg!tainter@caip.rutgers.edu (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel

From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH
>HMMM... I wonder if one of a  pair  of  sock  can
>time travel ..

Oops.  You caught us.  We in the socks industry discovered that if
we send a sock back in time then you have two socks.  So instead of
really selling you a pair of socks we sell you the same sock
overlapped on itself in time.  Unfortunatedly when it reaches the
point at which we sent it back from one of the instances disappears
and you only have one sock left.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 22:47:29 GMT
From: felix!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Richards)
Subject: Objects in a time loop

>rickheit@ulowell.UUCP (Erich W Rickheit) writes:
>> The possibilities of a nonexistent item appearing within a time
>>loop though, are staggering. What else could you do with this? Am
>>I the only one to have ever thought of such a thing?

Karl Heuer writes:
>No.  I first saw this described as (plot sketch) man invents time
>machine, travels to future, sees statue in park honoring himself as
>inventer of time machine, brings it back as proof, same statue is
>installed in park to honor him.  The same idea has been used in
>other contexts, though I haven't seen it used to create/destroy a
>murder weapon.

Jim Balter writes:
>I think Heinlein has been there before you.  Consider the
>character(s) in "All You Zombies" who is his/her own parents, and
>who drafts himself into the Time Service.  And while the dictionary
>in "By His Bootstraps" does not appear via a time loop, the
>information in it does.

This plot element was used in a film starring Christopher 'Superman'
Reeve (Somewhere In Time?).  Near the beginning of the film, an old
woman hands him a gold pocket watch.  This starts him on his quest
to travel back in time, which he does.  He meets the old woman as a
young woman, and gives her the pocket watch.  I had a real problem
with this.  I wanted to know where it came from originally.

Dave Richards

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1986 11:09:08-EDT
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Re:  Time Travel paradox

In SF #260, Erich Rickheit gives an example of a paradox of time
travel where a nonexistent item appears only within a time loop and
asks if his idea is original.  Of course, the answer is no.

In _The_Time_Machined_Saga_ by Keith Laumer (Published in PB as
_The_Technicolor(R)_Time_Machine_), there is a piece of paper
describing a loop in time which is given by a future version of the
hero to the current version (The English language is NOT set up for
time travel!) who puts it into his wallet, where it stays until it
is taken out and given to the past version.  When the scientist is
asked where it came from, he gives some answer like it was needed to
close the loop and balance the energy levels.

Another example is in a story from Astounding back in the early
forties, _As_Never_Was_ by P. Schuyler Miller.  This story is a gem
which should be anthologized much more than it has.

*** SPOILER FOLLOWS ***

The inventor of the time machine goes forward in time and brings
back a knife, made of a metal which cannot be analyzed but which is
harder than any known metal.  He dies shortly thereafter, so nobody
knows when he went.  The future is searched, without success, for
the civilization that could make the knife, until his grandson
builds a duplicate of his crude time machine, sets it to its limit
(about 300 years) and finds where the knife came from - the ruins of
the museum built to house the knife his grandfather brought back.
Except, the knife brought back was whole, while the one in the
museum had a notch cut out to try to analyze the material.  The
story ends on this note, leaving the reader to wonder about the
paradox.

*** SPOILER ENDS ***

For Erich's story, he had better have the guy reload the pistol
before he takes it back.  Otherwise, one could only go through the
cycle a few times before he hits an empty chamber and breaks out of
the loop, cancelling it out as if it never happened, and leaving
still more questions, like the spontaneous creation of a pistol,
violating all of the conservation laws.

Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 18:46:34 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel

This brings to mind a thought I had a while ago.  Imagine one of us
computer programmer types being transported back to the middle ages
or earlier, and making an honest effort to explain what we do for a
living.  They would think us magicians or wizards.

"You take these ... things (golems?, demons? -- I don't quite
understand) and you give them instructions on what to do -- in other
words, you control them.  Definitely a wizard."

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 86 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #273
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 273

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 06:27:02 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>>>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would
>>>require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really
>>>is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard
>>>fuel.
>>
>>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit;
>>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid
>>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable.
>
>Now wait just a second -- that's not quite what Adams is saying
>(i.e. that the theoretical limit can be exceeded.)  I admit it
>wasn't well phrased, but what he is saying is that if you are
>willing to accept a 35-1 mass ratio you can still do it: 35-1 !=
>impossible.

   I don't know about this.  To say that the limit can be "violated"
seems to say that you can do better than the 35:1 ratio.  Maybe we
should let Frank clarify what he meant (I've been waiting for this
for several days now...).  I agree that 35-1 is not the same as
impossible.

>>   I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
>>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard
>>fuel.  Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is
>>hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather
>>than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.
>>I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to
>>be collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be
>>impractically large.
>
>Gee David, I didn't realize you knew so much about 100 percent
>conversion drives and such -- tell me, what is the usual fuel for
>100 percent mass-conversion?  What is it about the protons and
>electrons in hydrogen that makes them so much more intractable?

   Matter and antimatter in equal quantities.  You can't convert
ordinary matter by itself into energy.
   I will admit however that it might be better to do somewhat
better than fusing the hydrogen into iron -- there should be some
additional release of energy if, for example, you could collapse the
residue into neutronium.  This is getting into the realm of the
extremely unlikely, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what the
absolute *theoretical* limit would be (in contrast to the rocket
drive, where there is a clear physical limit).

David desJardins

>By the way, did everyone notice that David desJardins has an
>aphorism immortalized in CACM in the last couple of months?

I give up.  What is a CACM, and what are you talking about?  Am I
supposed to be pleased or embarassed?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 15:21:20 GMT
From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Re: Clearly this is how the ALIENS sequel will work

And the music for the sequel will be done by John Williams, Jerry
Goldsmith and James Horner (the latter desperately copying
everything the first two produce).  All of them will be fed large
amounts of sugar and left with the London Symphony Orchestra and a
organ grinder named Guido.

I have spoken... *GONG*!

Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 18:19:04 GMT
From: ihlpg!tan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Tanenbaum)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

> [David desJardins]
>    Matter and antimatter in equal quantities.  You can't convert
> ordinary matter by itself into energy.
>    I will admit however that it might be bettre to do somewhat
> better than fusing the hydrogen into iron -- there should be some
> additional release of energy if, for example, you could collapse
> the residue into neutronium.  This is getting into the realm of
> the extremely unlikely, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what
> the absolute *theoretical* limit would be (in contrast to the
> rocket drive, where there is a clear physical limit).

The "theoretical" limit depends on which theory you use.  David is
assuming that the total baryon number (Protons + Neutrons -
Antiprotons - Antineutrons, more or less) is conserved.  Certain
theories unifying the strong interactions with weak and
electromagnetic interactions predict a violation of this
conservation, e. g. protons could decay.  I don't think you can
speak of an absolute theoretical limit in this case except in the
context of a particular theory.  I know of no convincing theoretical
argument that says that ordinary matter could not be converted to
energy with virtually 100% efficiency.  Of course, the theories
predicting proton decay predict lifetimes on the order of 10**30
years, give or take several orders of magnitude.  As a practical
matter, David is right, at least for the forseeable future.

Bill Tanenbaum
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville IL
ihnp4!ihlpg!tan

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 18:33:43 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

> franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams)
>> desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins)
>> [a 4-ly trip taking 10 subjective months requires a 35:1
>> fuel-payload ratio, and will require 8.5 or so g's.  This is a
>> theoretical limit for a reaction motor powered by on-board fuel.]
>
> Surely you don't think that 35:1 constitutes a theoretical limit!
> I will assume you mean that 1:1 is an absolute, theoretical limit.

Ah.  I see what is going on here.  Frank has misinterpreted what
David said originally.  What David said was that "you can't do
better than 35:1", while Frank took the meaning to be "35:1 is
impossible".  In fact, in the original article, David says that the
35:1 limit makes the trip *impractical* (for the technology level
shown in Aliens), not impossible.  So I think Frank and Dave agree
on this point.  Basically they were disagreeing on what is meant by
the phrase "theoretical limit" in this context.

> I did the calculations for this a couple of years ago.  It turns
> out that for trips at a fixed acceleration, the ratio of total
> inital mass of the ship including fuel to the delivered mass grows
> exponentially.

I was about to disagree, but then I realized *I* was probably
misinterpreting *Frank*.  In particular, I took the above to mean
"The ratio of total initial mass of the ship to payload mass grows
exponentially as the payload mass."  After all, he did say
acceleration was constant across trips, (trips at a fixed
acceleration, right?) Well, I finally figured out that he meant that
the acceleration *in* *any* *one* *trip* was constant, and that the
mass ratio grows exponentially as the trip acceleration.

I took "trips at a fixed acceleration" to mean "cases where there
exists a constant 'K' such that for each trip 'T', the acceleration
of T is K".  I would have been less mislead if the above had been
"trips at fixed accelerations", which I would have taken to mean
"cases where for each trip 'T' there exists a constant 'K' such that
the acceleration of T is K".  Yet another natural language
quantification and scoping ambiguity.

Turns out to be easy to misinterpret English sentences, doesn't it?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 18:33:51 GMT
From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Alien physiology -- comments

benn@sphinx.UUCP (T Cox) writes:
>hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
>>The outer teeth are used to "cut" resin which is secreted by the
>>Alien.  The resin seems to be secreted by the "tongue" but not
>>necessarily past the inner teeth.  The flexible tongue allows it
>>to spray resin all over the place (as was done by the one which
>>roped up the pilot's hands as she was reaching for the controls,
>>just before it killed her.)
>>
>>When the alien wants to feed, it feeds like a spider.  It punches
>>a hole in the victim and injects digestive fluids, then sucks up
>>the results.
>
>Sorry, but no.  No, no, no.  That only works on creatures with
>exoskeletons.  An ant will dissolve and turn into a nice
>spider-meal; but you and me would run all over the floor.  No
>external non-dissolving covering.  And don't say "they coat people
>with resin" because then you're investing shitloads of energy AND
>bodily resources just for a meal.

Yes, yes, yes.  Spiders let their victims hang around.  The Bugs
seem to be very speed-oriented.  The digestive juice, which does not
have to be the same as their blood, could easily be exuded and
sucked back in before the "meal" runs all over the floor.  The only
evidence we've got about what the Bugs eat is that we NEVER saw a
human which had been eaten, only those which have been used as
incubators.

>I never saw an Alien *eat* anybody.  Rend limb from limb, yes;
>gouge chunks out of, yes; decapitate, yes.  Eat, no.  And as for
>the crap I've read about eating brains and absorbing RNA, sweet
>Jesus, who ever told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!?
>Sure, cells' instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you
>studied in college and high school is packed away as RNA?  Anyone
>care to enlighten us as to how memory is stored?  I'll give you a
>hint: It Isn't RNA.

Wrong.  RNA is a primary component in the encoding of memory.  The
other components are brain structure, and cellular interaction.
Brain structure means that you can encode certain memories because
there is a "wired in" section that can interpret the stored info.
Cellular interaction is pretty much short-term stuff:
excitation/inhibition levels which have to be "transcribed" by an
incompletely understood mechanism probably related to a particular
lump (whose name I forget) which is on the underside of the brain.
The long-term information is certainly stored in a chemical code by
chaining RNA together in a particular fashion.  This has been
demonstrated antagonistically by breeding mice with a genetic defect
that greatly lowers the RNA production in their brains.  Those mice
did unusually poorly at maze-learning, etc.  Those which were given
RNA supplements showed marked improvement.

However, strictly speaking, yes, there is no positive proof that RNA
is the ONLY component in the encoding of memory.

And

>how do you have something that size squirrelled away inside your
>body w/o noticing?  Do the face-huggers remove your right lung to
>make room?  And just how do they get so big after they come out?
>[Maybe they do eat people; then again, maybe they eat metal too.]

First, they aren't THAT big when they are inside.  Plenty of room in
the abdominal cavity for a critter.  Second, they seem to tie into
the nervous system.  They probably inhibit the senses that would let
you know they are there.  I don't know why they would then burst out
of the chest.  Maybe they DO live in the lung (*UGH*) and chew their
way out.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 18:38:40 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes:
>[...]  David is assuming that the total baryon number (Protons +
>Neutrons - Antiprotons - Antineutrons, more or less) is conserved.

What in sheol's an 'anti-neutron'?  A neutron with opposite spin?!?

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 86 17:08:40 pdt
From: Mark Redican <vallejo!mark@sri-tsc.arpa>
Subject: ALIENS

    SEQUEL THEORIES: There was a scene, if I remember it correctly,
that took place in the colonist's med/bio lab, in which Bishop
stated to Ripley that the Company Scumbag had ordered him to protect
the alien facehuggers so they could be shiped back to Earth or
Gateway or wherever.  Those particular facehuggers were destroyed,
but perhaps Bishop found a few more ...

     Someone also asked the question -- Why didn't Ripley just nuke
the Alien ship from orbit?  I suspect that there are a great many
safeguards built into any weapons system capable of delivering
nuclear weapons.  Whether Ripley could get past these safeguards,
even with the help of Hicks, is doubtful.

Mark Redican

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 17:44:09 GMT
From: ihlpg!tan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Tanenbaum)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

> What in sheol's an 'anti-neutron'?  A neutron with opposite spin?!?

No. It's the anti-particle of a neutron.  It is distinct from the
neutron.

Bill Tanenbaum
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville IL
ihnp4!ihlpg!tan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 21:02:58 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Alien physiology -- comments

hunter@oakhill.UUCP (Hunter Scales) writes:
>I seem to recall some experiment done with planaria (flatworms) in
>which a bunch of worms were trained to run a maze by use of
>electric shocks.  These were then ground up and fed to some
>untrained worms and, lo and behold, these worms could negotiate the
>maze with no trouble.  Did I dream this or is this just part of the
>memory puzzle?

You didn't dream it, but that experiment has been pretty thoroughly
discredited.  It seems the second group was following chemical
traces laid down by the first group; their feeding habits had
nothing to do with it.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 23:27:17 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>>>   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
>>>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the
>>>back) the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would
>>>require a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really
>>>is the absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard
>>>fuel.
>>
>>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit;
>>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid
>>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable.
>
>   All right then, explain how.  I'm looking forward to hearing
>your explanation of how this theoretical limit can be exceeded.

Surely you don't think that 35:1 constitutes a theoretical limit!  I
will assume you mean that 1:1 is an absolute, theoretical limit.

But it isn't, you know.  A fuel to payload ratio of 99:1 means your
original ship requires 99 tons of fuel for each ton of payload; but
there is nothing impossible about this.

I suspect you were incorrectly assuming a constant mass for the
vessel, including fuel, for the entire voyage.  This is not correct;
as you expend fuel, you no longer have to carry it.

I did the calculations for this a couple of years ago.  It turns out
that for trips at a fixed acceleration, the ratio of total inital
mass of the ship including fuel to the delivered mass grows
exponentially.  The practical constraints are quite real, but there
is no "theoretical limit" short of the total matter in the universe.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 86 1012-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #274
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 274

Today's Topics:

              Television - The Second Hundred Years &
                      Quark & Tom Corbett (3 msgs) &
                      Wizards and Warriors & Space: 1999 &
                      Lost in Space & Doctor Who &
                      Star Trek (3 msgs) & More SF on TV (3 msgs) &
                      Title Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 09:22 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: SF on TV
Cc: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>

>And I don't remember the name of the show but heres the plot:
>Mountain man freezes in a glacier or something, a hundred years
>later gets thawed out and goes and lives with his grandson who
>happens to be about 30 older than he is.

Oh, yeah!  I think it was "The Second Hundred Years" with Monty
Markham.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 15:21:24 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

Quark was a classic wasn't it. It starred Richard Benjamen as Capt
Quark. I think it was one for more then one season, becuase I can
remember 2 almost entirely different casts. But, the only thing I
remember now is a pair a clones or androids.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 16:31:34 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Tom Corbett, Space Cadet

> jib@prism.UUCP (Jim Block)
>> smg@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Susan Garnsey)
>>I never saw Johnny Quest, but the description sure sounds like my
>>first intro to SF, the series of Rick Brant books.

I had also noticed this similarity.  I suspect it is coincidence
only.

> I certainly remember Rick Brant, along with Tom Swift, Jr, and Tom
> Corbett, Space Cadet -- all were juvenilles that I grew up with.

Speaking of Tom Corbett, I noticed browsing in a local VCR rental
establishment that good old Tom made the tube in the fifties, with
Willey Ley as scientific advisor.  I haven't seen any of these
yet... I intend to rent them when I have the time.  Has anyone else?
Anybody like to post a review?

( Interestingly, TC,SC had one story that included a mining planet
where fissionables were so abundant that they would sometimes
spontaneously support fission chain reactions.  I (and most people I
talked about it with) thought this was the most ridiculous thing we
had ever heard.  Until in the seventies, I heard about this little
incident in Africa, 2 billion or so years ago if memory serves (:-),
where there was a spontaneous fission reaction, right here on earth!
"Hard to believe!" )

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 06:51:51 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Tom Corbett, Space Cadet

I was watching some of Tom Corbett, Space Cadet on one of the
strange stations (Nickelodeon?) a year or so ago.  I was rather
impressed-- they seemed to actually be trying to put some science in
their science fiction.  So far as I know, that may be an only in
american tv.

I seem to remember that Tom Corbett was one of three SF soaps
playing (live action, every day for half an hour.  kind of limits
your special effects).  Another was Cptn Video and the Video
Rangers.  Does anyone remember the other one?

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 86 20:46:59 GMT
From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: SF on TV -- Tom Corbett, Space Cadet

From: daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel):
>I was watching some of Tom Corbett, Space Cadet on one of the
>strange stations (Nickelodeon?) a year or so ago.  I was rather
>impressed-- they seemed to actually be trying to put some science
>in their science fiction.  So far as I know, that may be an only in
>american tv.

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember hearing that some real SF
heavyweights did some writing for TC, possibly even including
Heinlein.  Anybody know for sure? Jayembee?

>I seem to remember that Tom Corbett was one of three SF soaps
>playing (live action, every day for half an hour.  kind of limits
>your special effects).  Another was Cptn Video and the Video
>Rangers.  Does anyone remember the other one?

I remember one called SPACE PATROL, but I'm not sure it was
national; I saw it in LA. Had "Commander Buzz Corey", and a young
sidekick with a dumb name, plus a very phallic space ship. That's
all I recall.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 17:12:36 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

davidsen@kbsvax.UUCP (Davidsen) writes:
>Actually my favority SF TV show was a fantasy (and I really prefer
>hard core SF) and a comedy to boot, _Wizards and Warriors_ which
>was on for a summer and vanished. I got all the episodes on tape
>except the first one, which I missed (sigh).

ARE YOU KIDDING?!?  During the pilot, my friend and I were betting
on when it would be cancelled!  I said, first episode.  He said, 15
minutes!  Yech!

They DID, however, have one good line:

"While we're in this cave, look for badgers.  We can follow them to
a source of water."

>My wife votes for _QUARK_, the comedy about a galactic garbage
>scow. It was *way* too subtle for the general public, with dozens
>of double meanings and references.

THAT was a good one, mostly for Richard Benjamin, and that
plant-guy.

How about UFO (from back around the mid-sixties)?  Now THERE was an
atrocious show!

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 10:23:57 edt
From: sm1j@andrew.cmu.edu (Stewart McGuire)
Subject: SF - TV programs

Since everyone is talking about SF TV programs I thought I would
give my two cents worth.

SPACE: 1999

Staring Martin Landau as Commander John Konieg(sp?) and Barbra Bain
as Doctor Helena Russel.  My favorite character, who only showed up
in the second season, was Maya.

Stewart McGuire
Carnegie-Mellon University
sm1j@TE.CC.CMU.EDU
sm1j@CMUCCVMA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 86  9:21:34 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com>
Subject: Lost in Space - Dr. Smith

I, too, remember Dr. Zachary Smith.  He was the character you loved
to hate.  Unfortunately, I was old enough to see through the
childishness of his character and to be annoyed at the family's
apparent inability to learn from their dealings with him.  Younger
viewers, of course, ate the show up.

I have been planning to write this note because in all the digests I
went through, including a huge stack yesterday, no one supplied one
piece of information (till Jerry Boyajian let it slip in a note at
the bottom of the stack) about Dr. Smith -- the name of the actor
who portrayed him, Jonathan Harris.  I easily recognized him when I
first saw the program, I first knew him as Bradford Webster in the
TV series _The Third Man_.  He was sidekick / secretary / assistant
(I forget which) to Harry Lime, played by a favorite actor of mine,
Michael Rennie (a.k.a. Klaatu).

JBL
Arpa:   Levin@cc2.bbn.com
Usenet: {ihnp4|decvax|etc.}!bbnccv!levin
                 or     ...!bbncca!levin

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 18:20:17 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: WhoNews --NYC

WhoNews:  NYC area.

WNYC channel 31 has gotten more Dr. Who episodes.  Whereas they used
to show only the TOM BAKER episodes, they now have the Davison
episodes too.  They will be showing them starting in September on
friday nights at 9:00.  More importantly, they are showing BLAKE'S
SEVEN at 8:00 right before the good doctor.

WLIW channel 21 also has more episodes!  Whereas they only showed
Tom Baker and Peter Davison, they have the COMPLETE package now.
Hartnell to Colin!  They too have BLAKE'S Seven.  Saturday nights at
8:00.  And in December they will show K9 and Company.  It wasn't a
such good story but it was great to see Elisabeth Sladen again.

When will NEW JERSEY NETWORK get Blake's Seven???  I have heard a
lot of good things about it but have never seen it.

WPIX Ch. 11 will be showing an old HARTNELL movie on tuesday the day
after Labor Day (Where is a calendar when I need one?) at 10:00 am
(not sure check your local listings)

Cheers,
Stephen Pearl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 86 14:05:19 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Starfleet destruct mechanisms

Okay! I finally figured this thing out. In STTMP, Kirk ordered
Scotty, who was down in Engineering at the time, to carry out
General Order [something-or-other]. This involved the antimatter
pods. However, nobody ever said that the bridge destruct mechanism
involved anti-matter!

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 17:42:03 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: ST IV

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
>Even the Federation Council.  They drop charges against everyone
>but Kirk, who they demote to Captain.  And give him a new ship.
>Guess which?  I'll give you a hint, the number is NCC 1701 - A.

This is something I wanted to see: EVERYBODY demoted to their
original ranks (sure makes things easier).  Except Spock, of course:
they make him a Rear Admiral for giving his life back in STIII!

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 86 10:07 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek: Warp and Century
Cc: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

I don't think he posted to SFLovers, but Alastair msged me about the
inconsistancies I mentioned in ST's century and Warp factors.  So,
since I'm writing it up for him, I thought I'd post it, too, in case
anyone else is interesting.

Century: In "Space Seed" Kahn (No flames, please, folks, I can never
remember where the "h" goes and whereever I decide to put it is
guaranteed to be wrong.) is clearly identified as being from the
1990s, and Kirk tells him he's been sleeping for 2 centuries.  This
puts ST in the 22nd century.  Yet, in "Squire of Gothos" they say
they're 900 light years from Earth and Trelane has been observing
the Earth of 900 years ago.  ("...if someone had a telescope
powerful enough..."  And let's ignore the science of that, shall
we?)  Yet, Trelane knows about Napoleon.  This puts ST in the 27th
Century.

Warp Factors: You folks can research the episode, I think it was the
end of "Arena".  Anyway, Chekov says.  "It's a sixteenth parsec
away.  We'll be there in seconds."  Now, conservatively, I'll assume
I misheard and he said "sixtieth" and that "seconds" might mean as
much as 60 seconds.  That still puts the speed at over 27 THOUSAND
times the speed of light.  The popular theory that warp factor cubed
gives you the speed of light means that, for that non-emergency
little ride, they were going at Warp 30.

Also, in "That Which Survives", the Big E gets hurled, is it
hundreds or thousands of light years away?  Coming back, they hit a
MAX of Warp 14.1.  Yet they make the trip in what can't be more than
a few days.  I leave the speed this involves as an exercise for the
reader.

Now, compare this data to "By Any Other Name" where they say that,
even at the super warp speeds the Enterprise has been boosted to, it
will take 300 years to get to Andromeda.  There's no way you can
come up with a maximum speed for the Enterprise that makes 1/60th of
a parsec in seconds and doesn't make the trip to Andromeda a short
hop.

So, I conclude that "Warp" is not a measurement of speed, but a
measurement of space distortion.  The higher the warp, the greater
the potential for space displacement, but the exact ability to
traverse distances depends a lot on the starting and destination
positions in space, the matter density in between, etc.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Mon 25 Aug 86 10:51:01-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: OLD SF-TV

All this reminiscing about old SF on TV reminded me of the first SF
TV shows I remember watching as a pre-schooler, back in the mid-50s.
They were animated features, shown (in the L.A. area) as part of a
kid's show called "Sheriff John" (ah yes, the "law 'n order" 50's).

The more sophisticated (??) was called "Space Angel", and featured
that strange, cheapo animation technique where characters' mouths
move (it looked like they had filmed an actor's mouth, then merged
that with the non-moving cartoon) and occasionally large objects
moved.  (This was also used for an adventure series of the time
called "Clutch Cargo").

The other, apparently aimed at younger kids, was called "Colonel
Bleep", and featured a stick like creature with a bubble helmet and
antennae (that shot out rays of some sort).  No dialogue, just
"bleep bleep" and maybe some narration(?).

Does anyone else recall these shows?

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 07:01:59 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV

Cartoons.  Probably Hannah-Barbera.  Definitely not up to Jonny
Quest, but you take what you can get.

I remember something called "Space Ghost".  Space Ghost was a
dogooder with these fancy powerbands with only three buttons that
did an incredible number of things.  He had these two twins (Jan and
Jayce?) and their monkey (Bleep?).  All three could turn invisible.
Jan and Jayce would get in trouble, and Space Ghost would rescue
them in the nick of time.  They went around in a ship called The
Phantom Cruiser.

There was another called The Herculoids.  Primitives who were being
harassed by highly technical races.  There was the poppa primitive,
the momma primitive, and the little boy primitive.  They had some
companions--a family of giant amoeba-like things (I think they could
spontaneously fission and refuse), a grenade-throwing rhinoid (six
or eight legs--my memory isn't that good), and a super-strong
gorilloid.  Of course, the technological nasties would always get
trounced in the end.  Kind of back-to-nature, with a vengeance.  The
noble savage, along with his noble anti-aircraft rhinocerous.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 18:59:52 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV

Hey! Nobody's mentioned DARK SHADOWS yet! (O.K., so it's fantasy; so
what?)  Any soap opera starring a vampire can't be all bad,...

And, while we're on a list of Japanimation, how about:
        Space Cruiser Yamato    (a.k.a. Star Blazers)
        Gatchuman (sp?)         (a.k.a. G-Force)
        S.S.X. 009              (a.k.a. Cpt. Harlock)
        Urashomon (sp?)         (a.k.a. Future Police)
        Space Fortress Macross  (a.k.a. Robotech)
and a hundred others?  (O.K. so they're not old.  I can't win, can
I?)

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 86 18:32:47 GMT
From: root@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Charles Root)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

> While we're on the topic of obscure SF on tv: Anyone remember a
> very short-lived show about a total loser whose given some kind of
> drug that elevates him to Superman powers?

Was it Exo-Man, or Exor?  I remember something along these lines,
but the difference was that it was a scientist who was working on
artificial muscles.  He found that if he could apply enough energy
to them, he could make these muscles quite strong.  By linking them
inside a self-contained suit, he made a workable unit.  Some rival
ran him over, crippling him completely.  He then rigged a computer
control setup for the suit so he could use it himself.  He then
becomes some sort of vigilante, looking for the people who hurt him.
I distinctly remember one instance when he first uses the suit that
it runs out of power, and he almost suffocates inside the suit.

Beside that, I don't know whether it was a series or a tv movie.
Perhaps it was a pilot that never got off the ground.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 86 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #275
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 275

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Cherryh & Clancy &
                    Daniels & LeGuin & Plauger & Scott &
                    Yarbro & Yulsman & Zelazny & New Books &
                    Nature's End & Baen Books (2 msgs) &
                    Time Travel Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 15:21:28 GMT
From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw

>From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to
>EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree?

No, no, no.  Go back and re-read *The Robots of Dawn* (or whatever
it's called) again.  It's R. Giskard (the supposedly inferior robot
who can read minds and has the capability of independent
action/thought) who is plotting to guide the future of mankind, not
R. Daneel, who is really not an unusually impressive robot, aside
from his physical appearance.  I think Asimov is planning to try
tying all his future histories together (a la Heinlein or Niven)
with a direct link between the Susan Calvin stories, the Lije
Bailey/R. Daneel stories, and the Foundation stories.  Certainly
such a link is suggested in *Robots of Dawn* and hinted at in
*Foundation's Edge*.  Personally, I don't think he should bother.
There's something about having all the corners tucked in, with
everything tied together and all the details accounted for, which is
very unappealing to me, and I would hope that Asimov could resist
the temptation.

Alex
...!mcnc!unc!melnick

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 21:45:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett)
Subject: new Asimov novel

I noticed in the new issue of Locus that Isaac Asimov's new novel is
to be published in September: Foundation And Earth.

Everett Kaser
Hewlett-Packard Co.
Corvallis, OR

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 16:50:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john)
Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw

From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to
>EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree?

That would have been easy since R. Daneel and Hari Seldon are
probably the same person/robot but I feel that it was actually
Joseph Schwartz behind that one.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 23:26:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

>P.P.S.  Why does C.J.Cherry add an `h' to her name when she writes
>books?

I have heard that she picked that by-line because there was an
established mundane writer already using her real name, Carolyn
Cherry.  For example, if your real name was Robert Albert Heinlein,
you wouldn't be able to use your real name as a by-line either.
(Not that the other Cherry is that famous.)  The terminal 'h'
certainly makes the name distinctive.  I suspect that the initials
are used for the same reason that many another female writer of sf
adventures has disguised her first name -- too many people are
afraid that teenage boys won't buy anything written by a woman.

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: Mon 25 Aug 86 18:06:14-CDT
From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Red Storm author interviewed

Tom Clancy, the author of Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising,
was interviewed on National Public Radio's All Things Considered
last week.  He said that every device and technology used in his
books already exists, and that he "doesn't want to write science
fiction."  Don't get me wrong - the books are superb, both the
can't-put-down variety.  I just thought it interesting that Clancy
doesn't consider them science fiction or futuristic.

Larry Van Sickle
cs.vansickle@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 16:41:31 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE DRACULA MURDERS by Philip Daniels

               THE DRACULA MURDERS by Philip Daniels
                    Critic's Choice, 1986 (1983)
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     A vampire-style murder at a Halloween dress ball starts
Superintendent Vine on a quest for the killer.  But is the killer a
man or something else?  The writing style is crisp, the characters
well-drawn, but the novel lacks any real tension or surprises.  I
hate to say if this is the kind of book you like, then you'll like
this book, but that about sums it up.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 17:48:39 GMT
From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Always Coming Home

pete@stc.co.uk writes:
>Anyone out there read this book? Any opinions/reviews?
>I enjoyed it, with some reservations.

I'd say that the book was more interesting than enjoyable. If you're
expecting another "Left Hand of Darkness" you'll be dissappointed.
She set out to write science non-fiction and largely succeeded. It
reads like non-fiction, being rather dry and concenrned with
details, and there is little true narrative.  What there is is
scattered throughout the book in small chunks, including the one
extended narrative, which is more or less in diary format, not at
all like a novel.

If you are interested in how Leguin thinks, you'll probably like the
book perhaps with reservations. The major shortcoming that I found
was the flavor of didactism that permeated the book. The book that
it reminded me most of in terms of ambience was Ecotopia, although
there is no comparison is terms of the quality of writing or ideas.
Actually, the comparison isn't all that good otherwise but I still
find it the best.At least she doesn't beat you over the head with
her pet philosophy, unlike some writers (e.g. RAH). I found the tape
that came with it eminently forgettable. I'd give the book a +1.5 on
the -4 - +4 scale. I enjoyed it more or less but I probably won't
reread.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 02:31:25 GMT
From: enea!peno@caip.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen)
Subject: Re: P.J. Plauger

I'm not sure about this but I recall reading (some 6 years ago) a
short story called "Virtual Image" by Plauger.  I won't spoil things
by describing the plot here.  Anyway, as with "Child Of All Ages",
the feel of the story was what made it special, not the
science-fictional elements.

pekka

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 16:40:35 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: A CHOICE OF DESTINIES by Melissa Scott

               A CHOICE OF DESTINIES by Melissa Scott
                             Baen, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     What if?  In this case, what if Alexander didn't invade India
and die as a result?  What if he turned west instead?  Though my
knowledge of the history of the period is not strong enough to judge
this book in that regard, a friend who has a degree in history
claims it is accurate.  The near-term changes may be realistic, but
the interludes, set over a millenium after Alexander, seem
disconnected from the rest with no real groundwork laid for their
basis.  Better than many Baen books, but still not quite there for
me.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 16:42:37 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: A BAROQUE FABLE by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

              A BAROQUE FABLE by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro
                           Berkeley, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This appears to have been written as a Gilbert & Sullivan
operetta.  Full of knights, dragons, princesses, and all the other
trappings of chivalrous fantasy, it reminds me of nothing so much as
WIZARDS AND WARRIORS.  Okay, if a bit light-weight.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 16:39:29 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: ELLEANDER MORNING by Jerry Yulsman

                 ELLEANDER MORNING by Jerry Yulsman
                      St. Martin's Press, 1984
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Elleander Morning is an enigmatic Edwardian woman who goes out
one day in 1914 and shoots an anti-Semitic painter in a Vienna cafe.
Now we all know who she shoots, so the question is "Why?"  She
obviously knows more about things than the average Edwardian, but
how?  Though the events that follow are well thought-out and for the
most part follow naturally from this occurrence, the explanation for
the occurrence itself is less than convincing and is in fact the
weakest part of the novel.  The gratuitous addition of H. G. Wells
as a character is merely another example of the name-dropping that
one often finds in historical fiction.  Still, I would recommend
this as one of the better alternate histories of late.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 86 12:48:25 EDT
From: "Darrell Ringler"  <dringler@ardec>
Subject: Blood of Amber by Roger Zelazny

     To all you fans of Roger Zelazny and the Amber series, I just
saw in my local bookstore _Blood of Amber_, the sequel to _Trumps of
Doom_.  Its a small hardcover book published by Arbor House. If it's
at my local bookstore it should be at the bigger stores soon, but
why they don't get it any earlier is unknown to me.

Darrell  Ringler
dringler@ardec.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 14:25:41 GMT
From: gouvea@h-sc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea)
Subject: New books by G. Wolfe, H. Waldrop and K. S. Robinson

Three very good new books that either have just come out or should
be available soon:

1.  Gene Wolfe, *Soldier of the Mist* --- Begins a new series, this
one set in pre-classical Greece.  Like everything Wolfe writes, not
to be missed.  It concerns a mercenary in the Persian army during
the invasion of Greece who is wounded and loses his long-term
memory: he can remember only the last 8 or so hours, and has to
begin from scratch every morning.  On the other hand, he finds he
can now see and talk to the gods.  Don't miss it. (TOR hardcover)

2.  Kim Stanley Robinson, *The Planet on the Table* --- If you don't
usually read short stories, make an exception for this: the man is a
very good writer.  He can create a mood and his characters come
alive. (TOR hardcover)

3.  Howard Waldrop, *Howard Who?* --- This is also short stories, by
one of the most original and outrageous writers around.  Waldrop has
written only one novel, *Them Bones* (Ace Specials) (and one in
collaboration, *The Texas-Israeli War*), but his short stories are
better: wacky and wonderful, always different.  Give this a try.
(Doubleday hardcover)

Fernando Gouvea
gouvea%h-sc4@HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 16:38:32 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: NATURE'S END by Strieber & Kunetka

         NATURE'S END by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka
                            Warner, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The faults that I found in Strieber's WOLF OF SHADOWS are
magnified here--but then this is about five times as long.  It's
preachy., God, is it preachy!  Every ecological disaster warned
against in the past ten years is in this book.  Though it takes
place forty years from now, there has evidently NOT been a major
earthquake in California however, and I find the hi-tech aspects
unlikely in a world as chaotic as Strieber and Kunetka describe.
Little continuity flaws also mar the book--a character rescues his
data disks by putting them in his wallet and, even though all his
clothes are burned off, he still has the disks.  There's also a
secret enclave of genetically-enhanced super-intelligent children.
(This really is a "kitchen-sink" novel.)

     Perhaps the problem is that Strieber is still trying to write
horror novels which rely more on emotion instead of science fiction
novels which rely on intellect.  Taken as a horror novel, this isn't
bad, but as science fiction, it doesn't make it for me.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 86 02:39:36 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Baen books (and book clubs)

I would guess that the reason why book stores don't take advantage
of ordering via the "book club" is that they would not be allowed to
return books as they can now. And since they certainly won't be
selling the books for 50% off marked retail, which would be their
cost, they won't be able to correctly guess their sales except that
they will probably be lower.

Under standard sales to bookstores of paperbacks, the store is
allowed to return the cover of a pb obtained by "striping" them back
to the distributor or publisher for a full refund. This is why there
are all those warnings about not selling books and magazines which
are missing their front covers. The reason for this is that it's not
worth the postage to send them back relative to the cost of
producing the book for the publisher.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 20:05:51 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Baen books (and book clubs)

mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>As much as I dearly love the Other Change of Hobbit and other SF
>specialty bookstores, I can't quite see how Baen books is being
>"unfair". Why can't the stores simply order through the Baen Book
>Club, or if stores are expressly barred, in the name of (say) the
>manager.

Let's say the store does order from the club.  If they want to make
a profit, they will have to sell the books for a higher price than
club members pay.  It will always be cheaper for the consumer to
join the club.

Tim Smith
USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim
        ima!ism780!tim
Compuserve: 72257,3706
Delphi or GEnie: mnementh

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 86 09:23:58 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Time Travel Stories

First, a reference.  The one where a chemistry textbook is sent back
to hellenistic Alexandria is

        The Red Queen's Race  - Isaac Asimov

Secondly, there is almost a "sub-genre" out there of closed time
travel stories, ie stories where there is only one, fixed time line,
so the act of going into the past in some way causes the current
present.  The point usually is that the causal chain is very
tangled, so the characters are at first baffled, then surprised.

Heinlein's stories have I think been mentioned: By His Bootstraps
and All You Zombies.  Another really good one is As Never Was, by P
Schuyler Miller.  Man discovers time machine.  Makes trip into
future.  Returns with utterly baffling artifact.  Now read on...
Another I recall is Aldiss' T, from Space Time & Nathaniel (an
excellent early collection)

I can think of three main themes to time travel stories

(a) If you don't like the past you can change it:

    "With the time machine I vill give der Fuehrer the Bomb!"

    "Professor Bose is going to change history! We must
     get to the Chrono Lab first!"

(b) If you don't like your life you could have lived it
    differently:

    "Johnny, I know you very well - better than you expect -
     and I tell you you MUST NOT go to the Red Sox game!"

    "Give me one good reason, old man!"

(c) The closed causal loop:

    "Professor, your time machine cost $1000000000.  How
     could you afford that on the pay of a CMU teacher?"

    "Simple.  My first trip in the Chronoautomobile was
     to London in 54BC, where I invested one penny at 3%
     compound interest!"

Any more?

Robert Firth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 86 1102-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #276
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 276

Today's Topics:

             Miscellaneous - Worldcon Report (2 msgs) &
                     Around the Galaxy in 50 years (2 msgs) &
                     Transparent Radiation Barriers &
                     SFL T-shirts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Sep 86 1:11:18 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Report from the SF-Lovers Party at WorldCon

Live from the @ party at the World Science Fiction Convention in
Atlanta.  We're fighting off the non-net people at the door, and
having a wonderful time. An indication of our devotion may be
derived from noting that we all wimped out of the masquerade (one of
the MAJOR events at a worldcon) to get here.

Hi--this is Evelyn Leeper and I'm tired of being half of "The
Leepers".  The new word of the con is "nogs"--novels of Gibsonian
sensibilities, a.k.a. cyberpunk.

Perhaps half a Leeper?  What would that be?  Hmmm.....  Anyway, this
is your host, Nick Simicich.  It will be fun.  I know it will be
fun.  I have faith.  It will be fun?

Anyway, it was interesting getting the party together.  People kept
sending me mail, and stuff.  We also checked this disgustingly heavy
computer and printer through and it survived.  More later.

Okay, it's a PC keyboard but I think I can stand it for a coupla
minutes.  This is Hobbit@Rutgers [yep, that's internet] I -- we,
rather, probably will spend a little time at this [which by the way
seems immediately to be a pretty good party!] and then wander off to
find the darkest recesses of the Marriott.  I don't quite know who
I'm eventually typing at at the moment [actually right now it's to
some crufty WP package] [Host note: It is IBM Writing assistant, the
least-common-denominator word processor I have...] but it's good to
be here.  The con [aaaaAAAKK!!  I just got *nailed* by an incoherent
short-duration photon flux!!!] is very good [aside from the purple
rectangles now floating in front of my eyes].  It is fun.  If you
didn't come to this one you *will* make Brighton and experience it
for yourselves.  --- _H* 860831.2255

the venn buddhist is here.  Late breaking report: MG is not.  He was
noticed, however. there need to be a fax machine here, i cannot send
my symbol as well. oh well.  ps mason- get your butt down here.

Hi there.  This is ihnp4|mtgzz|leeper (secretly Mark Leeper) from
Worldcon '86 where the cinema scene is a little dismal.  Not one
film on the film program that I haven't seen.  I could have done
better staying home and going to the local video store.  Previews
for NIGHTFLYERS look like it could be decent, though constrained by
a low budget.  Lucas is working with Coppola and Disney to make a
3-D film for Disneyland called CAPTAIN EO in which Michael Jackson
dances aliens to death.  Blech!  I think Lucas has sold out to the
lucrative side of the force.  THRILLER meets STAR WARS is not my
idea of creativity.  What looks best of upcoming films is the
musical version of LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS.  There, that saves me the
effort of writing a con report.

No, it doesn't. --Evelyn Leeper

Ron of BRL and Mamaliz of the Soup Kitchen here.  Just stopped in to
see what is happening.  Liz is still looking for a book in the
huckster room which she can neither remember the title nor the
author of.  Oh, well...after we're done typing this we'll get this
mother on the net.

Liz says, "Sensitivity sucks!"

This is MGrant@mimsy.umd.edu.  It seems like the room is getting to
small for this many @'s.  There are @s on the floor, @s on the bed,
@s in the door, @s...  More @s are rolling in this minute.  Well,
having said basically nothing, I'm going to sign off... NEXT!

Hi, I'm back (haas@mich-state.edu (csnet)).  I wrote the first line
before we decided we should let people know who to blame for all
this.  The air conditioning has finally met its match and the room
is starting to warm up.  We should have tried packing all the rooms
this tight at Usenix, it would have cut down on the number of frozen
programmers.  NEXT!

This is Kimi@ides.uucp, a visitor from USENET.  You should be
here...there is no exclamation point on this board...  I came to
this con alone and have met at least a hundred people here.  The
parties are great. Oh, Paul Haas just told me where the ! is!!!  Hi,
Chuq--sorry you couldn't make it.

Hello World! hee hee hee.  Not so funny?  Well, you should be here,
and I think it might be funny to you too.  Oh well.  By the way,
this is coleman@ucsd.edu.  NEXT?

Greetings! This is jsloan@wright.{USENET,CSNET}. I'm here to tell
you that Andy Warhol was right.

Hullo, this is ins_bjms@jhunix -- the littlest orc at the party.
Y'all should be here.  But it's fun anyway....  [Editor's note.
Apparently, "y'all" is a southern term indicating a group of human
persons not including the speaker...I think that the Jersey/NY
equivalent is "youse"...]

Hello, Hello -- this is Charlie Martin (crm@duke) and I'm sitting
here surrounded by people I've known for months or years but never
seen.  Did you know that Evelyn Leeper looks like Snow White?  It's
true -- black hair, pale skin, the whole thing.  This is great.

This is sx1100!jlr.  This is my first Worldcon.  My favorite quotes
so far: "It's awkward to read a name-badge if it's pinned near your
crotch."  "Wes Craven is to directing as Attilla the Hun is to table
manners." (That last from the Harlan Ellison stand-up routine.)  And
the following exchange from a couple of mundanes outside the Hugos:
"You mean they actually write this stuff?"  "Yeah, I think so."
"Oh.  I've always wondered what they look like."

By the way...for those who are interested...here are
the Hugo winners:

Best Novel: Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card
Best Novella:  Twenty Four Views of Mt. Fuji by Hokusai,
             Roger Zelazny
Best Novelette:  Paladin of the Lost Hour, Harlan Ellison
Best Short Story:  Fermi and Frost, Frederick Pohl
Best Non-Fiction:  Science Made Stupid, Tom Weller
Best Dramatic Presentation:  Back to the Future
Best Pro Editor:  Judy-Lynn Del Rey...
     This award was rejected by Lester Del Rey on the
    basis that she would have objected to the award being
    given just because she had recently died.
Best Pro Artist:  Michael Whelan
   Whelan is going on sabbatical and has taken himself out of
   the running for one year so that someone else can
   win the HUGO (he has gotten it five years consecutively).
Best Fan Artist:  joan hanke-woods (she spells it without
   capitals)
Best Semiprozine:  LOCUS, Charles Brown (now if they would
   stop publishing Locus for a year)
Best Fanzine:  Lan's Lantern,  George Laskowski
Best Fan Writer:  Mike Glyer
John W. Campbell Award:  Melissa Scott
First Fandom Award:  Julian Schwartz
Big Heart Award:  Rusty Hevelin

Prometheus Award:  Victor Milan, Cybernetic Samurai
Promethean Hall of Fame:  C. M. Kornbluth, The Syndic
    Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, The Illuminatus
                                                Trilogy
Best Famous Person Not Recognized By Anyone:  Rich Rosen

1988 Worldcon Bid:  New Orleans (sorry, Rich)
1989 Worldcon Bid:  Boston (surprise!)

Hello... oc.trei@cu20b here... this is who is here so far (at least,
those who have signed the list...)

math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa
coleman@ucsd.edu
jsloan@wright
pratt@prosche.stanford.edu
...ihnp4!umn-cs!hyper!dean
chris@tekig5
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
jaffe@rutgers
oc.trei@cu20b
kevin clanton@mattapan (non net)
mjs@ibm.com (who graciously hosted this party)
chapman.es@xerox.com ks@a.cs.okstate.edu
ks@svo.uucp (?)
jkr@gitpyr
haas@mich-state.edu.csnet
moore@eglin-vax.arpa
mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa
gallaway@b.isi.edu
mgrant@mimsy.umd.edu
jim@mimsy.umd.edu
ron@brl
sommers@rutgers
zeve@rutgers
...ihnp4!sx1100!jlr
lcc.barry@ucla-cs
ucla-cs!lcc!leeway
hobbit@rutgers
meister@borax
...ihnp4!ides!kimi
crm@DUKE (ihnp4!mcnc!duke!crm)
boyajian@akov68.dec.com
ooblick@unirot
random@unirot
marick@gswd-vms
...!ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat
...!ihnp4!gargoyle!randy
Breslau@MIT-OZ
...!ihnp4!cbmvax!snark!eric
(various non-net Monkees Fans)

This is your host speaking one last time.  since it is my computer
and my modem, I insisted on the last word.  It has been fun.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 01:46:33 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Card's Secular Humanist Revival Meeting Wanted

Does anyone have a tape (video or audio) of Orson Scott Card's
"Secular Humanist Revival Meeting" from Worldcon in Atlanta?  I know
many people taped it and I *think* the Con video-taped it.  Will it
be available?  I would love to get a copy!

Reply to me--do not follow-up!

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 20:25:11 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Around the Galaxy in 50 years... a puzzle

> jnp@calmasd.CALMA.UUCP (John Pantone)
> Carl "BILLYUNS and BILLYUNS" Sagan wrote in his COSMOS book that
> by approaching the speed of light (>>90%) a circumnavigation of
> the entire galaxy could be made in aprox. 50 ship-years, which
> would seem to earth-bound viewers to have taken hundreds of
> millions of years.

Only if it takes the scenic route.  Our Beloved Galaxy isn't all
*that* large... it is (it is thought) about 100,000 or so light
years in diameter.  Thus "hundreds of thousands of years" is closer
to the mark.  That only makes the remembered figure off by a factor
of a thousand.  Close enough for government work, I suppose.  (Or,
if you work for the government, "close enough for the private
sector", right?)

Also, the >>90% factor is (despite the >>) somewhat of an
understatement.  Unless I've done my arithmetic wrong, the time
compression factor for 90% lightspeed is "only" .44 or so
((1-.9^2)^.5, right?).  In order to get the compression factor
needed to circumnavigate the galaxy in less than a century, you'd
need to be going at better than .999999 lightspeed (again, unless I
did my arithmetic incorrectly).

But all this leads to an interesting (I think so anyhow) puzzle.
Let us assume we are on a spaceship which is in the process of
circumnavigating the galaxy in 50 years subjective time, as outlined
above.  How much "centrifugal acceleration" do the inhabitants of
the ship experience (relative to the center of the galaxy, of
course)?  (Or, equivalently, how much centripetal acceleration must
the ship's engines supply?)

Sadly, I'm not at all sure how to even approach this problem.  (Or
rather, I can think of several ways to approach the problem, but I'm
not sure they are "correct".) Note, I am not asking the acceleration
perceived by outside observers, but rather that observed by those
onboard.  Please mail answers to me.  I'll post a followup.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 86 09:40:36 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Around the Galaxy in 50 years... a puzzle

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>But all this leads to an interesting (I think so anyhow) puzzle.
>Let us assume we are on a spaceship which is in the process of
>circumnavigating the galaxy in 50 years subjective time, as
>outlined above.  How much "centrifugal acceleration" do the
>inhabitants of the ship experience (relative to the center of the
>galaxy, of course)?  (Or, equivalently, how much centripetal
>acceleration must the ship's engines supply?)

   This is not all that hard.  Let the time, velocity, and
acceleration as measured by the stationary observer be t, v, and a
respectively, and the same variables measured on the ship be T, V,
and A (note v = V).  Use units of years and light-years, so c = 1.
   The stationary observer sees the ship traveling at c (to 8
significant digits), so it is easy to figure out the acceleration in
his coordinates: we can use the "standard" formula v^2 / r !  So, in
our units, a = 1/r.
   Now, how is the acceleration on the ship related to the
acceleration measured by the stationary observer?  Well, a = dv/dt,
and A = dV/dT.  So, since v = V, A = a dt/dT.  But dt/dT is just the
time dilation factor gamma, which in this case is (3.14 x 10^5
years)/(50 years) = 6283.  So A = 6283 / (5 x 10^4 ly) = .13.
   Now, the units of acceleration in this system are ly/yr^2.  Since
I've done this kind of calculation before, I know that this comes
out to be almost exactly g!  To be precise, 1 g = 1.03 ly/yr^2.
   So the answer is that the ship acceleration is .12 g.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 86 18:07:55 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: transparent radiation barriers

There's no need to resort to science fiction to find transparent
radiation barriers.  They are already in use.  As they have to be,
since you often need to be able to see the radioactive object you're
using to be able to manipulate it, without subjecting your eyes to a
dosage every time.  The management of nuclear reactors, or the
conducting of experiments in nuclear medicine, would be much more
difficult without them.

I believe lead glass is, or was, used for the purpose.  I would
imagine by now there are other substances, lighter and/or cheaper,
that do the job.

Nor does the idea seem to me intrinsically hard to follow.  Even in
the visible spectrum, things like coloured glass, or coloured gels,
are transparent to one colour, but less transparent, or opaque, to
others.  I have no problem with the idea that some substance would
pass the visible spectrum, but be opaque to other electromagnetic
windows.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 13:32:31 GMT
From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal)
Subject: SFL T-shirts?

What's this about SFL T shirts?  Is it too late to order one?  (My
contact with the net has been rather sporadic.)

Kenn Goutal
...decvax!sii!siia!kgg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 86 0853-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #277
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 277

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 00:05:37 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

     FTL travel is not explicitly stated in either movie, but it is
inferred in _Aliens_. How else could the rescue ship reach LV-426 in
only 17 days? And this time is objective. The length of time to
LV-426 in _Alien_ is far longer than in _Aliens_, because technology
has changed and the ships can attain greater FTL speed.

Catherine Ariel Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 21:13:32 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!gof@nosc.ARPA (Jerry Fountain)
Subject: ALIENS

I think everyone is making a big mistake on the FTL subject.  I do
not disagree with the comments about the shipboard time, *but*
remember.  The question was how long it would be until *THEY* could
expect a rescue.  The answer was 14 days (I think).  This is *not*
shipboard time but time spent on the planet.  Now if someone wants
to argue that the planet is speeding towards earth (or whereever)
at close to c then you may have something but that is not the case
here.

Jerry Fountain

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 18:44:26 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Memory and RNA

>And as for . . .  eating brains and absorbing RNA, . . . who ever
>told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!?  Sure, cells'
>instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you studied in
>college and high school is packed away as RNA?  Anyone care to
>enlighten us as to how memory is stored?  I'll give you a hint: It
>Isn't RNA.

My understanding is that this is still one of the hot research areas
of psychobiology.  I think the current understanding is that our
memory is holographic in some manner, and that, as in a hologram, it
does not put discrete parts in discrete places.  While damage to
some part of the brain will impair some function, memories don't
seem to be lost.  This is all simply my latest understanding, and is
definitely subject to correction.

I believe the mention of RNA has cropped up because there has been
some suggestion (in the literature, not the net) that RNA may play a
role either in the storage of short-term memory, or in its
conversion to long-term memory.  I have no idea which RNA form
(messenger, transfer, etc., or even a completely different one) was
supposed to be involved.  A versatile little (or not so little)
molecule, that one.

But given the lack of solid evidence of what *does* implement
memory, I'm not at all sure I'd care to be as definite as that in
stating what does not.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 86 07:43:30 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes:
>I know of no convincing theoretical argument that says that
>ordinary matter could not be converted to energy with virtually
>100% efficiency.  Of course, the theories predicting proton decay
>predict lifetimes on the order of 10**30 years, give or take
>several orders of magnitude.  As a practical matter, David is
>right, at least for the forseeable future.

   Hawking radiation is supposed to accomplish precisely this (100%
conversion of matter to energy). Hence there seems no reason in
theory (practice, alas, being very different) why a ship equipped
with enough mini black holes could not zip along munching up
ordinary matter and using it for energy.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Aug 1986 14:02:36-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: ALIENS (one more round)

Here's some comments on random aspects of ALIENS apropos of a few
discussions in SFL. Some are in response to specific postings.

Distance/time:

Prompted by something someone here at work said, I checked the both
the novelization of the original ALIEN and my videotape of same.
When trying to locate their position, Lambert stated that they were
"just short of Zeta II Reticuli". Now, as previous replies have
stated, yes, it's possible that the 10 months also quoted in that
film is subjective ship time, and that such a trip could be done in
10 months subjective at *very* near lightspeed, but seeing as Z2R is
~35 light-years away, the objective time at that speed is over 35
years, which does not seem like a reasonable transit time for any
commercial purpose (remember, you have to double that for
round-trip). Thus, one can reasonably conclude that they have FTL
(not to mention that I'd sooner believe that they had some contrived
FTL drive than that they could accelerate that close to lightspeed.

Dates:

I noticed in a later watching of ALIENS that Ripley mentions Burke's
transmission to the colony as being dated "six twelve seventy-nine"
(in the book, it's different --- "five thirteen seventy-nine"). One
can assume that this means June 12 (or May 13), xx79. It can't
reasonably be 2079, since that would place the first film as being
in 2022, which, barring a few freak technological discoveries, is
much too soon for that level of expansion into space. It's also not
likely to be *too* far into the future, so 2179 is most likely the
setting.

> From: stev@BU-CS.BU.EDU
>> From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
>>Yawn.  Is this the joke about the universal solvent again?  And how
>>about the specimen jars in the lab?  And you jibe me for being
>>science ignorant.
>
> The acid blood only appeared when the aliens were ruptured, the
> ones in the tanks were unharmed. What about the one Bishop was
> taking apart? We can assume he was careful to not spill anything
> out of the body, or possibly the colonists had found a way to
> neutralize the acid (remember, THEY had a full lab, and more time
> than the crew did in the first movie.)

(1) Bishop mentioned that the acid oxidizes rather quickly, so one
assumes that there's no acid in the dead specimen that he examined.

(2) In ALIEN, it's obvious that the face-huggers can secrete acid
voluntarily (the first one used it to get through Kane's helmet,
after all). One can reasonably assume that the liquid in the tanks
containing the face-huggers was of a very high pH to neutralize any
secreted acid.

From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)

> This makes some sense in an interstellar culture which has had to
> deal with the concept of non-human intelligence.  (There is some
> somewhere - somebody built the original derilict in ALIEN.  We can
> only speculate if humanity has met some others.)

It seems clear that humanity *has* met alien races before this.
First that the Marines implied that they've had combat with alien
life-forms before this ("Is this going to be a stand-up fight or
just another bughunt?"). Secondly, during the meal, one of the
Marines makes a remark about wanting to get some more "Acturian
poontang". One of the other Marines responds with, "But the one you
had was male," to which the first replies, "Yeah, but with an
Acturian, it doesn't make any difference."

Bishop infecting Hicks:

From: dartvax!tedi@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward M. Ives)

> Even though Sigourney Weaver has said that she won't do a sequel,
> you never know; money talks.  In which case, here is my stupid
> theory on the plot:
>
> A.) The android took off near the end of ALIENS, only to return just
> in the nick of time to pick up Ripley.  Most explanations on the net
> seem rather contrived.  The android said "I had to give
> such-and-such (the marine) a shot to knock him out."  Sure.

No, his excuse for not being there was that the platform was too
unstable to support the ship. The remark you quote was made to
explain why Hicks was unconscious. Bishop said, "I had to give him
*another* shot for the pain." I don't see why that was unreasonable;
Hicks *had* been splashed with acid. If he didn't have to *leave* in
order to give Hicks the first shot, why would he have needed to
leave to give him the second? The excuse wouldn't have washed with
Ripley.

From: mudie@merlin.Berkeley.EDU (David C Mudie)

> On the other hand, remember who was taking care of Hicks in the
> Med-lab?  The Company scumbag whisked him off as soon as he was
> brought in, and it was quite a while until we saw Hicks again --
> with his new bandages.  Perhaps Hicks was impregnated then, and
> the attack on Ripley and Newt was just Scumbag's attempt to avoid
> putting all his eggs in one brisket... uh, basket.

Ah, *nobody* "whisked" Hicks off to or "took care of him in" the
med-lab. Hicks did not get injured until he and Ripley were on their
way to rendezvous with Bishop and the second dropship. By the time
Ripley and Hicks got to the ship, there were 26 minutes to
detonation; when Ripley armed up and left to get Newt, there were
only 19 minutes to go and Hicks was already bandaged up.

I'm not convinced that Bishop was a Company rat, for reasons that I
explained before. In addition, consider the following:

For argument's sake, let's say that, as had been suggested, Bishop
had found a way (as a result of his examinations) to safely remove
the face-hugger after implantation. How long do you suppose the
implantation takes? If it takes only 15 minutes or less (which is
all of the time Bishop had to do it), why does the face-hugger hang
on for what must be 12-24 hours in ALIEN? Certainly not just because
it's having a swell time.

Furthermore, where the hell would Bishop have gotten the embryo to
implant? There were only two still living face huggers in the
med-lab, and both of those were destroyed when they attacked Ripley
and Newt. It is doubtful that the dead face-huggers carried living
embryos, and it's equally unlikely that the face-huggers carry more
than one embryo. There would be no reason for them to die after
dropping off the host if they were capable of implanting another
embryo in another host.
        Bishop would've had to either go down to the egg chamber
under the fusion plant or the one in the derelict, and there wasn't
any opportunity for him to do either.  Ripley would have run into
him in the first case, and it isn't clear that he knew where the
derelict was, or that he could have gotten there, found the egg
chamber, gotten Hicks infected, and returned in 15 minutes.

Besides, with thermonuclear detonation that close, I doubt that he
would've wanted to spare the time to go off to get Hicks infected,
just in case Ripley came back in 5 minutes instead of 15. Also, if
he was going to do all that, why go back for Ripley at all? It
would've been far safer for him and his mission if he infected Hicks
and just got the hell out instead of hanging around till literally
the last minute to rescue someone who might possibly have discovered
his subterfuge. And if he left Ripley and Newt behind, no one
would've known, since Hicks was the only other survivor.  If Hicks
had been infected, he would have been dead too, for all practical
purposes. When he revived, and Bishop could easily have seen to it
that he didn't, Bishop could've told him that Ripley didn't make it
back in time, and that they had to leave in order to warn the folks
back home about the seriousness of the problem.

That Bishop was double-dealing just doesn't stand up to the light of
reason. Which doesn't mean that it *won't* have happened when it
comes time to write the sequel. But they'll certainly have to come
up with a damn good explanation for how it happened!

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 15:01:54 -0500
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: ALIENS THEORY

    There has been a lot of discussion of how the ALIENS learn or
how intelligent they are. It appears to me that theories of RNA
'ingestion' are not reasonable explanations due to the fact that if
they had acquired the knowledge of their hosts they would have been
aware of the fact that the station was going to detonate. From what
I see in the movie (since the book doesn't explain too much from the
alien perspective) is that they are an imitative species. The Queen
uses the elevator because she sees Ripley use it and imitates her
actions, even though thi scould have been learned via some of the
colonists as well. I don't feel that they are too intelligent
because of the part in the book were they first try to penetrate the
station to get at our heroes. In the book there are two automatic
guns with motion sensors set up to blast the aliens as they move in.
In the book they get blasted...and the aliens just keep coming and
coming until the guns run out of ammo. This certainly isn't rational
behavior. But, then again, the Chinese in the Korean War used human
wave tactics too.

   Also, what about the theory that the aliens are space parasites.
For instance, Ripley dumped the queen into space. We know from
previous experience that they can survive in space. Who's to say
that she can't 'hybernate' until another ship comes into range and
then latch on. That could explain the first alien ship. The aliens
could use those tubes coming out of their backs as thrusters (who
knows what they are anyway?) to move around. And what do these
turkeys eat anyway. Maybe they can absorb chemicals from the
surrounding atmosphere or use photosysthesis in which case they
would have plenty to live on. This would also explain their black
color...adapted to their environment.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 86 14:35:21 -0500
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: ALIENS

   I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston. There
was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut out of
some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own. I
positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien ship
were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew find
the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where the
dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon looked much
like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut off the beacon
before the incident with the face hugger. Did anyone else recall
this version? Or was it another movie?

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 12:55:22 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Depends on what kind of sources you think are available.  If you
>rely on the general density of interstellar space, you will need a
>very large collection area to pick enough of it up.  I suspect that
>there may be other bodies between the stars ("Jupiter-like" bodies
>-- the results of protostars which were too small for fusion to
>ignite).  If these are present with sufficient density, there is no
>real problem.  (I am working on a story based on this idea.)

   I can barely imagine collecting interstellar hydrogen at .99c.  I
cannot imagine (and I doubt anyone else can, either) picking up a
useful quantity of fuel from a "Jupiter-like body" as you pass it at
.99c.

>I suspect that 4 L-Y in 10 subjective months is still going to
>require enough fuel expenditure to be reserved for emergencies with
>very small craft.  Not to mention the accelerations involved -- at
>least 10 G, I think.  (4 L-Y at 1 G takes about 5 years subjective
>time.)

   Right order of magnitude.  Traveling 4 LY, starting and ending at
rest, with a constant 1 G acceleration, would take 3.46 years
(proper time).

David desJardins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 86 0922-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #278
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 278

Today's Topics:

              Television - The Invaders & Star Trek &
                      Gigantor (3 msgs) & Time Tunnell &
                      Quark & Ultraman (2 msgs) &
                      I Dream of Jeannie (2 msgs) &
                      Superman & Jonny Quest (2 msgs) &
                      The Champions & SF on TV (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 21:46:44 GMT
From: minnie!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Lost in space

From: bigbang!bam@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
>Along the same lines did "The Invaders" {A Quinn Martin production}
>ever get discovered/killed/deported??  Or is David Jansen still out
>there warning people about the dangers of Cerebral Hemorrage??

As has already been pointed out, it was Roy Thinnes and not David
Jansen.  Jansen was The Fugitive.

Chris Grevstad
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris
ihnp4!nrcvax!chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Aug 86 10:22:26-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek videos

For those that are interested, another set of ST TV show videos will
be coming out in October. Among those released will be _Tribbles_,
Gamesters of Triskelion_, _Piece of the Action_, and "Space Nazis".
Additionally, _The Cage_ will be released, and from the early promo
tape that I viewed this will be in combined b&w and color with
narration/explanation by Gene Roddenberry.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Aug 86 11:10:10-PDT
From: Jackie <Burhans@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: GIGANTOR

I remember GIGANTOR. I was about 9 years old (that's 16 years ago).
But I don't remember much. Just a few of the words to the theme
song:
    GIGANTOR! GIGAAANTOR!
    Gigantor the space-age robot
    He's at your command
    Gigantor the space-age robot
    His power is in your hand
    Bigger than big, Stronger than strong
    Ready to fight for right
    Against wrong!

Yes, well. Powerful philosophy for a 9-year old. I watched it here
in the L.A. area on Channel 52 along with Speed Racer and Kimba the
White Lion. Although those are not SF cartoons, can anyone tell me,
are those also japanese animation?

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 19:49:18 GMT
From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller)
Subject: Re: GIGANTOR

BURHANS@USC-ECLB.ARPA writes:
>[...] I watched it here in the L.A. area on Channel 52 along with
>Speed Racer
> and Kimba the White Lion. Although those are not SF cartoons, can
>anyone tell me, are those also japanese animation?

I can't give a definitive answer, since I'm a snob when it comes to
cartoon animation (if it was made for television, it stinks :-)).
However, as I recall, shows that I have _known_ to be japanese in
origin tend to have characters with very large, round eyes.  I tend
to take this to be a characteristic of japanese animation...and, as
far as I can remember, Speed Racer (and the other characters in that
show) had very large, round eyes.

I tend to wonder if these eyes have anything to do with the racial
differences in eye shape?

Scott Hazen Mueller
City of Turlock
901 South Walnut Avenue
Turlock, CA 95380
lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev
work:  (209) 668-5590 -or- 5628
home:  (209) 527-1203

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 03:23:55 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: GIGANTOR

> I can't give a definitive answer, since I'm a snob when it comes
> to cartoon animation (if it was made for television, it stinks
> :-)).  However, as I recall, shows that I have _known_ to be
> japanese in origin tend to have characters with very large, round
> eyes.  I tend to take this to be a characteristic of japanese
> animation...and, as far as I can remember, Speed Racer (and the
> other characters in that show) had very large, round eyes.
>
> I tend to wonder if these eyes have anything to do with the racial
> differences in eye shape?

The original influential Japanese animator was Tezuka.  Tezuka was
highly influenced by (you guessed it) Disney.  Since all of Disney's
characters had huge eyes, Tezuka followed suit and the style still
remains.  However, there are also plenty of Japanese animated films
that have characters with normal sized eyes.

It's amazing how many people are freaked out by the large eyes in
Japanese animation. It's a running joke at alot of C/FO meetings.
People come up with alot of weird reasons for it.

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 86 20:04:41 GMT
From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

Haven't you all forgotten TIME TUNNEL??????  This starred James
Darren, I think.

Scientists have constructed a time tunnel, but have been informed
that funding has been cut off before they have a chance to test it.
One junior technician makes an unauthorized trip back to the
Titanic...

The only episode I missed (or so I think) was the one in which the
time travellers go back in time to the actual location of the time
tunnel, several years earlier.  Does anyone know what happened?
(I've been wondering this for about 14 years.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 86 06:47:05 GMT
From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone) writes:
>Quark was a classic wasn't it. It starred Richard Benjamen as Capt
>Quark. I think it was one for more then one season, becuase I can
>remember 2 almost entirely different casts. But, the only thing I
>remember now is a pair a clones or androids.

Quark was on for only four episodes, and I will eternally regret
having missed one of them.  The show was too full of inside jokes to
last.  Capt. Quark and his crew manned an interstellar garbage scow.
His first mate was a vegetable named Ficus Fecunderata.  He had two
identical twin officers (I think they were clones), plus I think one
more person on board.

One episode was a direct parody of the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of
Star Trek; another had Quark engaging in heroics, guided by The
Farce (sic), played by the voice of Hans Conreid (a la Obiwan's
voice in the later Star Wars movies).

The show also featured Conrad Jannis (sp?), later Mindy's father (as
in Mork and), as Quark's boss.

If anyone has tapes of any of the episodes, I would dearly love to
see them again.

Alex
...!mcnc!unc!melnick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Aug 86 12:45:26 EDT
From: Jeremy Bornstein
Subject: Re: SF-TV shows

Has everyone forgotten "Ultraman"?  Actually, I almost have.  What I
remember about it is that it involved someone who could become a
giant (with some other special powers which I don't remember) with
the aid of a small metallic device.  He fought other Japanese actors
(who almost always wore lizard suits) while stomping on miniature
models of Tokyo.  Does anyone remember more?

Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 04:45:49 GMT
From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman)

Boy, that brings back memories, Ultraman came to Earth while chasing
an intergalactic monster. He accidently kills a human, but in his
compassion shares his life with the human. To become Ultraman, he
must raise the Beta Capsule (the small metallic device). Ultraman
also had to win quickly, otherwise the little light on his chest
would start blinking, telling him that the Earth's sun was starting
to drain his energy. If the light stopped blinking, Ultraman would
die. I also remember his ray that he fired by crossing his arms in
front of his face.  Anybody else want to add more...

Sean Rouse
ARPA:   cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:   ucbvax!cory!cc-30

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Sep 86 13:51 CET
From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: SF on TV

Who played the Jeannie in 'I dream of Jeannie' ?

(NOT Joan Collins or someone the like, please)

Michael Maisack

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 00:31:29 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

Barbara Eden played Jeannie.  I think she was also in the George Pal
version of _The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao_.  I can't think of
anything else related to SF that she's been in at the moment.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 86 13:50:05 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: SUPERMAN the TV series

Brown students claim that the Industrial National Bank (now Fleet
N.B.)  building is either the DAILY PLANET or the tall building he
leaps over in a single bound. Does anyone out there know of any way
I can check this?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 86 09:34 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Johnny Quest

The new Johnny Quest comic's second issue deals with the
introduction of Race Bannon and the death of Mrs. Quest (all in one
story).  It was very touching and almost made me cry :-( sniff.

But seriously, my favorite episode was not the giant spider, but the
old Nazi with the pteradactil and the biplane. I will forever
remember (and laugh with my brother when we repeat it as an in joke)
him yelling, "Ze Diamonds! Ze Diamonds!" while throwing those old
grenades from the plane.

We also discovered the JQ law of falling to your death, which has
been transformed into a replacement for "Geronimo" when jumping.
Always yell, "Ieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..."  It must be drawn out until you
hit.  It was so predictable it was hilarious!

I also had (I wish I still did) a record with Johnny Quest, 20,000
Leagues Under the Sea!  Talk about a rip off!  They went straight
down that far in their bathosphere and were attacked by a giant
squid (probably the same one that almost ate Opus).  They
electrified the bathosphere and returned to the surface unharmed (in
case any of you were getting worried).  The most important thing
about this record is that it made me read Jules Verne, and my
addiction to SF got started.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 17:29:00 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Jonny Quest

I don't know if anybody's posted about this, but there was an
article on net.comics saying that Hanna-Barbara is going to be
putting out a new Johnny Quest series.  Actually, it's the old
series (uncut, all the original episodes, supposedly) plus some new
material.  Something about a girl who's a new member and looks like
Cyndi Lauper or somesuch.  There was also an article about the
Johnny Quest news conference that Comico held at the San Diego Comic
Con (Doug Wildey was on it) telling all about the new comic book
series (excellent!) and some old nostalgia bits about the series.
(like how Bandit was created).  Anyways, just thought someone might
like to know.

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Sep 86 21:32:49 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

>The Champions, a British SF.  They had super strength and a sort of
>telepathy and precognition.  I think it only lasted one season.
>The show started with a shot of this huge fountain.  Why, I don't
>know.

They could also run at a pretty fair clip, if I recall aright.

I seem to recall the complement being: one British man, one British
woman, and one American man.  Weren't there also other series that
had the formula of international and gender mixes?

They all worked for some organisation in Geneva -- lots of
international organisations are based in Geneva, in theory at least,
and perhaps in fact -- so the opening shots showed the great
fountain on Lake Geneva which has become rather a trademark for the
city.

Now, for a blind guess: did Annette Andre play the woman?  She got
all kinds of bit parts in those days -- Randall's secretary and
Hopkirk's widow in "Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased)", this or that
incidental character in "The Saint", and I seem to recall her
turning up elsewhere.  I never actually liked her very much: she
always seemed rather a weak character, and in those days she had
Mrs. Peel of "The Avengers" to compete with, which made her look
weaker yet.  (Of course, it may be argued that very few female parts
did -- and do -- not look weak compared to Mrs. Peel.)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 04:12:44 GMT
From: nbc1!abs@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Siegel)
Subject: SF on TV:  Astroboy, Prince Planet, and Eighth Man

No one's mention one of my favorite early Japanese cartoons: Eighth
Man.  Eighth Man had been a reporter who was run down by a car one
night, and picked up, half-dead, by a scientist who used his body to
create a super robot; his eighth creation, thus the name "Eighth
Man".  He had a large figure "8" on his chest, and could change his
appearance at will.  His secret identity was as "Tobor" ("Robot"
spelled backwards).  The theme song went like this:

EIGHTH MAN

A prehistoric monster,
It came from outer space,
created by the martians to destroy the human race.

The FBI is helpless,
it's 20-stories tall,
what can we do - who can we call?

Call Tobor, the Eighth Man!
Call Tobor, the Eighth Man!
Faster than a rocket, quicker than a jet,
He's the mighty robot, he's the one to get!

Call Tobor, the Eighth Man!
Quick, call Tobor, the mightiest robot of them all!

(Last stanza is probably incomplete.)

Another cartoon that was discussed on the net a few years ago was
"Prince Planet".  Here's an approximation of the theme song:

PRINCE PLANET  (thanks to Lauren Weinstein)

(Many children singing)

Priiiiiiiince Planet!
Oh the things he'll do,
Will astonish you,
Prince Planet, he's the best!

Like a meteor,
With a dinosaur,
Or a damsel in distress!

Oh it's no surprise,
That he hates bad guys,
And he makes the bad guys pay.

Here comes Prince Planet!
Priiiiiiiince Planet!

No one can compare,
To the prince who wears,
The medallion on his chest.

Like a streak of light,
Changing wrong to right,
Prince Planet's on his way!

Here comes Prince Planet!
Priiiiiiiince Planet!

(Male narrator speaks)

The inhabitants of the planet Radion have been observing the Earth,
and have decided to help its inhabitants fight against evil.  So,
they have sent to Earth Prince Planet, to fight against evil
wherever he finds it.

And finally, can *anyone* tell me the words to the "Astroboy" theme?
I think that there were two different songs: one sung at the
beginning, and the other at the end of the show.  I can remember the
music very clearly; the words not at all (except for the closing
line "Go, go, go, Astroboy!").

Andrew Siegel, N2CN
philabs!nbc1!abs
NBC Computer Imaging, New York, NY
(212)664-5776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 86 16:50:25 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com>
Subject: SF TV shows

>Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty
>sure I never watched it.  The opening was animated, and there was a
>gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening is:
>
>   It's about time
>   It's about space
>   It's about men from the human race

The lyrics are from the title tune for IT'S ABOUT TIME, but my own
dim recollection is that the third line is

    It's about two men in the craziest place.

THE SIXTH SENSE starred Gary Collins, not David Hartman (interesting
idea, though).  Incidentally, when this show was syndicated, as part
of a package deal with episodes of NIGHT GALLERY, the episodes where
edited down from 60 minutes to 30 minutes!

I certainly remember ASTRO BOY.  It was my favorite show when I was
a kid, and I've enjoyed it again when I've had an opportunity to see
episodes since I became an adult.

If BUCKAROO BANZAI can be a version of Doc Savage, why can't JONNY
QUEST be inspired by Rick Brant.  (I thought Jonny was the cutest
when I was his age and the show was in first run.)

Kathy Godfrey

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 86 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #279
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 279

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Cherryh & Ellison (4 msgs) &
                   Finney (3 msgs) & Koontz & Plauger &
                   Stasheff & Rare Book Auction,
           Magazines - Small Press (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 13:58:30 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jonathan Meltzer)
Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw

melnick@unc.UUCP (Alex Melnick) writes:
>ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>>I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to
>>EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree?
>
>No, no, no.  Go back and re-read *The Robots of Dawn* (or whatever
>it's called) again.  It's R. Giskard (the supposedly inferior robot
>who can read minds and has the capability of independant
>action/thought) who is plotting to guide the future of mankind, not
>R. Daneel, who is really not an unusually impressive robot, aside
>from his physical appearance.

No, no, no. Read *Robots and Empire*. Giskard dies at the end and
transfers his psychic powers to Daneel.

Jon Meltzer
Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Cornell University

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 15:42:50 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: C.J. Cherryh

From:   mic!d25001      (Carrington Dixon)
>> P.P.S.  Why does C.J.Cherry add an `h' to her name when she
>> writes books?
>
> I have heard that she picked that by-line because there was an
> established mundane writer already using her real name, Carolyn
> Cherry.

No, it was done simply because her publisher, Don Wollheim thought
that it looked more exotic with the terminal "h".

> ...I suspect that the initials are used for the same reason that
> many another female writer of sf adventures has disguised her
> first name -- too many people are afraid that teenage boys won't
> buy anything written by a woman.

Nonsense. That may well have been the reason that C.L. Moore hid her
first name or Andre Norton changed hers, but by the mid-70's,
publishers were not being that silly, especially Wollheim, one of
whose best-selling author at that point was the very feminine-named
Marion Zimmer Bradley.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 10:07:48 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth

I can't believe all these attacks on Ellison's non-fiction!  I have
only read one essay of his that I didn't like, a silly piece on
video games.  His F&SF column is usually good, though I don't share
his respect for Herbert, and his non-fiction books are excellent.  I
refer in particular to "The Glass Teat", "The Other Glass Teat", and
"Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed".  His insight is
penetrating, and his conveyance of that insight to the reader is
damn near flawless.

To those who have been ragging on Harlan's non-fiction, I would ask
what hard-edged or satirical writing they do like.  Calvin Trillin?
Mark Twain?  Ambrose Bierce?  Or do they just disapprove of this
sort of writing?

Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 16:27:02 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth

In addition to the books Tim Maroney mentioned (The Glass Teat, The
Other Glass Teat, and Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed): An
Edge in My Voice, a collection of Ellison's columns from the LA Free
Press (if I remember this right), is also excellent.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 13:44:39 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@caip.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>I can't believe all these attacks on Ellison's non-fiction!  I have
>only read one essay of his that I didn't like, a silly piece on
>video games.  His F&SF column is usually good,

I find Ellison's F&SF column totally self-indulgent and lacking in
content. For example, he took about three columns recently to
"discuss" the movie about young Sherlock Holmes (can't remember the
title). Take a look at those columns; look for the content; WHAT THE
H_LL IS HE SAYING? He's got little anecdotes about his personal
experiences, a lot of excess verbiage, and a little meat about the
topic he's dealing with. The man likes the sound of his own voice. I
resent subscribing to a magazine for many years and then having
garbage like this foisted off on me as a movie review. "Installment
No. 225 In Which Your Dear Author Enjoys Listening To Himself Babble
On Again," indeed. Feh.  The man's PRETENTIOUS.

The only thing worse about F&SF's nonfiction is Asimov's column. He
and Ellison share a propensity for boring personal anecdotes (who
CARES about details of the Good Doctor's life? I sure don't), and
Asimov is pompous as all get out. A very recent column (last month's
or this) started out with a lengthy diatribe against an "English
major" who wrote Asimov a letter. A grown man who feels the need to
put down a 19-year-old in this way and who has such obvious contempt
for liberal arts majors (read the column) is not my idea of a good
companion.

And that's what I expect when I read a non-fiction column in a
magazine like F&SF: the voice of a good companion for a half hour or
an hour, someone whose company I enjoy. Certainly not someone who
comes across as a pompous _ss like Ellison or Asimov.

>and his non-fiction books are excellent.  I refer in particular to
>"The Glass Teat", "The Other Glass Teat", and "Sleepless Nights in
>the Procrustean Bed".  His insight is penetrating, and his
>conveyance of that insight to the reader is damn near flawless.

Sorry, I fail to share your enjoyment of "The Glass Teat" and
"Sleepless Nights..." Chacun a son gout, I suppose.

>To those who have been ragging on Harlan's non-fiction, I would ask
>what hard-edged or satirical writing they do like.  Calvin Trillin?
>Mark Twain?  Ambrose Bierce?  Or do they just disapprove of this
>sort of writing?

I love all three. I simply think Ellison projects an Attitude in his
non-fiction, an Attitude I don't particularly care for.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 21:19:30 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Harlan the Mouth

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> I refer in particular to "The Glass Teat", "The Other Glass Teat",
> and "Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed".  His insight is
> penetrating, and his conveyance of that insight to the reader is
> damn near flawless.

Well, I didn't read about nocturnal insomniacs being forced into
arbitrary patterns, but I did read his collections named for a fused
silicate nipple of a televisual mammary.  Far from "insightful" and
"penetrating", I found him rather sophomoric, egotistical, elitist,
simplistic, overbearing, bombastic, and (perhaps worst) repetitious.
He seems to try to project a more-erudite-than-thou snobbery while at
the same time affecting a more-earthy-than-thou pop-culture veneer.

But (in my humble opinion) he sure can write fiction.

> To those who have been ragging on Harlan's non-fiction, I would
> ask what hard-edged or satirical writing they do like.  Calvin
> Trillin?  Mark Twain?  Ambrose Bierce?

Twain, mainly.  The plane of Twain is mainly in the brain.

As opposed to being mostly emotional tantrums, I mean.

(   I am, perhaps, being over-harsh on Ellison in this posting.
    So, assume I mean a half-a-smiley or so along with the above.  )

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 21:44:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett)
Subject: Time And Again: author?

I seem to remember reading a book by Clifford Simak called "Time And
Again".  (It was an excellent time-travel story, as I remember, but
then that was about 20 years ago.)  Maybe Richard Matheson also used
that title.

Everett Kaser
Hewlett-Packard Co.
Corvallis, OR

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Aug 86 02:52:01 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Millenium, Time and Again
To: hjuxa!jjf@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

From: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu (FRANEY)
>Last night, I started reading a book by John Varley called
>'Millenium' ...  In the first chapters, the group is busy trying to
>save the passengers and crew of a doomed airplane of 1955, when ...
>Things start going wrong.  In trying to solve these problems, a
>great deal of energy is spent, which made me wonder why the group
>didn't abort its mission and try again at its leisure.  The reason
>is that when the rescue team returns to the airplane to retry, they
>will merely get in their own way, since the first effort exists in
>the airplane at the time before the crash already.

  The book makes it clear that one cannot travel to (or view) a time
that anyone has travelled to before, or that anyone will travel to
in the future (if that makes any sense).

>[This bring to mind a book by I. M. Notsurewho called 'Time and
>Again' which held the theory that to travel through time, you must
>convice yourself, your brain, that you already are then.  The only
>thing that keeps an individual in the present is the temporal
>strings attached to his psyche (ie. images of contemporary
>telephones).]

  It is by Jack Finney.  A secret government project to send people
into the past using suggestion and hypnosis.  Much of the action
takes place in New York City in the 1880s, which Finney tries to
convince the reader was almost utopian.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 08:32:32-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: TIME AND AGAIN

> From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM (Marina Fournier)
> ...but the author [of TIME AND AGAIN] is Richard Matheson.

No, TIME AND AGAIN was written by Jack Finney. Richard Matheson
later wrote a different book on the same idea called BID TIME
RETURN, also known as (because of the film) SOMEWHERE IN TIME.

To answer another point that was brought up, Clifford Simak also had
written (20 years previously) a novel titled TIME AND AGAIN, but
there's no connection other than the title.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 09:29:31-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Dean Koontz

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>

> Speaking of Koontz, the "Also by" page (is there a better or
> "official" name for this page in a book [the one before the title
> page where they list other books by the same author]?) lists the
> following titles: DARKFALL, PHANTOMS, WHISPERS, THE VISION, and
> NIGHT CHILLS. None of these ring a bell with me, and none sound
> like SF -- has Koontz moved away from SF to "horror/thrillers"
> instead? Anyone have anything to say about these other books, or
> other things by Koontz?

Yes, Koontz has pretty much stopped writing sf, turning to horror
for the last five years or so. Apparently, he's much better at
horror than he is at sf, but I haven't read any of his horror novels
(the only sf novel of his I liked was BEASTCHILD, which wasn't
nearly as good as the shorter version that appeared in one of the sf
magazines, VENTURE).

A relevant anecdote: Last year, there was a rumor floating around
that a Laser Book, INVASION by "Aaron Wolfe", was actually
pseudonymously written by Stephen King, and some book dealers were
even selling copies for big bucks under that assumption. One dealer
who knew better, Bob Weinberg, offered one autographed copy each to
the first five people who could identify the true author. His clue
was "It's a famous horror author whose last name begins with 'K'."
The true answer was, of course, Dean Koontz.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 86 04:54:49 GMT
From: wolf!rgale@caip.rutgers.edu (Ryan Gale)
Subject: Re: P.J. Plauger

From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
> I picked up a used copy of The 1976 World's Best SF (edited by
> D.A.Wollheim) and found it has a story by P.J. Plauger, "Child of
> all Ages".  I believe this is the same P.J. Plauger that cs people
> know as the author of The Elements of Programming Style, etc.

Yup, same guy.  The only other story of his that I know of is
"Virtual Image" which can be found in _New Voices III_, edited by
George R R Martin.

Plauger said in an interview that he didn't plan on writing any more
fiction because life was short and there were too many programs that
he wanted to write.  A pity -- he's good.

Ryan Gale
...!sdcsvax!wolf!rgale

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 86 23:08:19 GMT
From: osu-eddie!jac@caip.rutgers.edu (James Clausing)
Subject: _The Warlock is Missing_

   Just picked it up today.  For those of you who have enjoyed the
Warlock series, this one starts out (and looks like it will be
mostly) about the kids.  I've only read about 20 pages (while doing
laundry) will post a review when I finish.

Jim Clausing
CIS Department
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@ohio-state.CSNET
jac@ohio-state.ARPA
jac@osu-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Aug 86 15:51:26-PDT
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@Sierra.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Auction of Rare Books

Barry R. Levin is reentering the science fiction rare book business
with an auction at:
     California Book Auction Galleries, Inc.
     358 Golden Gate Ave
     San Francisco, CA  94102

on September 28 (Sunday)  at 12 noon
   September 29 (Monday)  at 12 noon

This auction will include such rarities as:
   Asimov:  The Robots of Dawn (leather) and the Foundation Series
            (4 vols)
   Bradbury: Fahrenheit 451    (limited, bound in asbestos boards)
   King:  Firestarter  (lettered, bound in asbestos boards )
   Niven:  The Ringworld Engineers  (lettered, bound in leather)

Proofs of:
   Asimov:   Foundation's Edge (3 states)
   Clarke:   2010 (3 states)
   McCaffrey:  White Dragon
   Tolkein:   The Fellowship of the Ring (advanced proof with
              earliest state of proof map laid in)
   Vinge:    Snow Queen

and other much wonderful stuff.

It is possible to buy from the auction by mail, I have done so
before.  Illustrated Catalog by mail from above.

My only connection is as a satisfied customer

Randy Neff

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 86 18:29:02 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: small press

I have discovered "small press" magazines.  I am looking for any
recommendations on SF/FANTASY/HORROW related small press magazines.
Please post ordering info as well as the titles.

Thank you,

Stephen Pearl
(Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Edu)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 86 06:38:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: small press

Two small press fantasy magazines:

FANTASY BOOK     (generally regarded as one of the top semi-pro zines)
Dept. S
PO Box 60126
Pasadena, CA  91106

8-1/2 by 11, color cover, b/w inside art, all kinds of fantasy, plus
comic.  Quarterly.

PANDORA
c/o Empire Books
P.O. Box 625
Murray, KY  42071

8-1/2 by 11, b/w cover art on colored stock, b/w inside art.
semi-annual

New Wave SF magazine:

LAST WAVE
P.O. Box 3022
Saxonville Station
Framingham, MA  01701

5 by 8, photo-style cover, no inside art, avant garde stories
published semi-whenever

UCBVAX/HPLABS/HAO/ICO/ISM780
SDCSVAX/SDCRDCF/ISM780C

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 86 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #280
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 280

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 86 02:46:23 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Time TRAVEL - An Insane Approach to Time Travel

jhardest@wheeler-emh writes:

>I really could not work any wonders .. one I don't have a power
>source for my computer ; two , I would not be able to communicate
>to anyone.. since they believe I am the DEVIL or one of his daemons
>(snicker)

There was an SF story in OMNI ( I think ) several years ago about a
scientist who goes back and tries to give Isaac Newton a calculator.
Anyone remember the title and author ( or which issue it was in? ).

Tim Smith
USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim
Compuserve: 72257,3706
Delphi or GEnie: mnementh

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Aug 86 12:29:20-EDT
From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet)
Subject: backwards time travel

I've been away for awhile, so this may seem like old news.  But
around the beginning of August there was a discussion on the Net
about backwards time travel and the confusion it could cause.
Someone mentioned the part in Hitchiker's Guide where a cereal
company sued Encyclopedia Galactica.  It seems, then, that there was
a lot of time-based confusion in the Guide, especially on the part
of Zaphod Beeblebrox the First (or Nothingth).  Anyone else remember
the seance aboard Heart of Gold?

He invokes the ghost of his Great-grandfather, Zaphod Beeblebrox the
Fourth.  The mixup in numbers is due to an accident with a
contraceptive and a time machine.  Talk about confused!

Rob Freundlich

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 29 Aug 1986 12:21:01-PDT
From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Time travel

It's perhaps too easy to forget that conservation "laws", like other
natural "laws", are simply a statement of our best understanding of
behavior in a specific context, rather than abstract truths.

There used to be conservation "laws" for both mass and energy; when
it became known that they were inter-convertible, the laws were
merged into a single one.

Rather than a change in the "law", time travel issues might instead
simply change the context in which the existing "law" applies.  For
example, the current mass/energy conservation "law" pretty obviously
applies only to a closed system (itself an abstraction with no
guaranteed counterpart in reality...).  Now, if one admits the
possibility of discontinuous temporal displacement, no system, no
matter how space- encompassing, can be considered "closed" without
also encompassing its past and future time extents (to or from which
mass/energy displacement could occur) - and once the time extent IS
included, mass/energy within the resulting enlarged context remains
a conserved quantity.

Such a view certainly appeals to my own sense of natural order more
than creation of mysterious "balancing" mass/energy transfers that
preserve mass/energy at each instant: after all, is there ANY reason
to believe that such a stricter law DOES in fact apply without
experimental evidence (which would necessarily be based upon an
observed discontinuous displacement)?

Not having studied physics for around twenty years, I'm likely
treading upon very thin ice in suggesting that at the quantum level,
at least, there may already be support for a looser interpretation -
if not for discontinuous displacement, then at least for continuous
retrograde displacement (videlicet time symmetries for
electrons/positrons as a single particle with two opposing temporal
vectors).  Relativistic (special or general) time dilation might
also have insights to offer.

With such wider contexts, questions like "Where did the gun come
from, and where did it go?" go the way of all paradoxes: they cease
to be problems when our viewpoint matures to understand the
situation.  We are no more disturbed by the circular nature of its
temporal movement than we would be if it were moving in a spatially
circular motion on a turntable: that it "doesn't exist" outside that
circle is simply not an issue.  There are, admittedly, related
philosophical issues (it's not at all clear that such physics allows
"free will" - but then it's not at all clear that CURRENT physics
does either).  As has been mentioned, Heinlein has explored them
rather thoroughly and well.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Mon 1 Sep 86 14:48:47-EDT
From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet)
Subject: re:sending devices from the future into the past

>a AWACS for the Americans at Pearl Harbor, or the Nimitz (ha ha)

I assume you have heard of _The Final Countdown_, in which the
Nimitz goes back but can't save Pearl Harbor.  If not, find it.
It's one of those movies that stuck with me for a long time after
seeing it.

But an AWACS?!?!?  Yes, it would have told them the Japanese were
coming, but all evidence I've seen or heard of says that we knew of
the impending attack and did nothing to prepare Pearl Harbor.

Is this true or am I having delusions (again) ?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon 1 Sep 86 15:12:18-EDT
From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet)
Subject: insanely contemplating time travel

>... a paradox resolved is a paradox created.  Resolving the second
>generates the first.

And creates a new paradox, which must be solved in a third way.
This is the premise of _Thrice Upon a Time_, by James P. Hogan.  It
is one of the best time-travel novels I have ever read.

Hogan ends up proposing several different diagrams of the space-time
universe, all of which seem valid and support whatever theory the
characters are expounding at the time.  An amazing book.

Has anyone who's read it noticed a similarity between this and
George Benson's "Cambridge, 1:07 AM" (I think that's the title...) ?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 86 10:31:33 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: sending devices from the future into the past

S.R-FREUNDLICH@KLA.WESLYN writes:
>But an AWACS?!?!?  Yes, it would have told them the Japanese were
>coming, but all evidence I've seen or heard of says that we knew of
>the impending attack and did nothing to prepare Pearl Harbor.

   Certainly the imminent possibility of war with Japan was
well-known.

   Probably the military leaders of the time were aware of the
possibility of a surprise attack, but if so they vastly
underestimated the vulnerability of the American fleet to such an
attack.

   Possibly (I don't believe it, but some serious historians do) the
political leadership suspected (at most a day or so in advance) that
Japan was about to declare war.

   Almost certainly the political leadership did not know that a
Japanese fleet was actually en route to attack Pearl Harbor. (I rate
this as about as likely as that KAL 007 was not a spy plane, but
Reagan still knew that it was off course over sensitive Russian
airspace, and did nothing.  This would require a similar chain of
events.)

   It is absolutely certain that the commanders of the air and naval
forces in Hawaii did not know either that war was imminent or that
Japanese forces were sailing toward Pearl Harbor, until the moment
of the attack; they certainly could have used the Awacs.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 15:32:27 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Time travel

todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>With such wider contexts, questions like "Where did the gun come
>from, and where did it go?" go the way of all paradoxes: they cease
>to be problems when our viewpoint matures to understand the
>situation.

While I agree with everything else you've said, I justt realized a
problem with the gun deal: Considering that the gun is used once
every (day? I forget the original posting.), that gun gets a LOT of
use.  What happens when, once thru the loop, it jams?  The murderer
better go out and look for an all-night gun shop, FAST!  ;-)

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 86 14:42:03 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
To: jhardest@WHEELER-EMH.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Time Travel or If only they had

>  Claymore mines at the Battle of the Alamo for the Texans of
>  course.

Read the recently-out "Remember the Alamo!" by Kevin Randle and Bob
Cornett.  They did it [and it...naw, that would be a spoiler :-)].

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 22:00:56 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: The "Gold Coin Paradox"

jjf@hjuxa.UUCP (FRANEY) writes:
>       But now I'm confused, with regards to the two gold coins
> sitting on the table for an hour.  Whether we remember one or two
> coins on the table, the fact is that there are now two coins on
> the table.  When we send the coin back, we receive a coin's worth
> of matter/energy and the matter/energy conservation law is
> maintained.  The end of the hour comes along.  The moment that we
> sent the coin back is at hand.  I'll call this moment Instant A.
> Before Instant A and because we sent the coin back, there are two
> coins on the table.  At Instant A, we make a matter/energy
> exchange, all systems go.  After Instant A, the two coins are now
> one, having sent the original back.  After Instant A, there is a
> coin's worth of matter/energy imbalance in the equation.  It turns
> out that Universe(10:00) < Universe(10:01).  How can the existence
> of the coin on the table be justified after instant A?

Certainly there is a gold coin's worth of energy in the equation;
and the most likely form of that energy will be electromagnetic
radiation and heat.  As a result, the test station will burn to the
ground after a bright flash of light and a thunderclap from
suddenly-expanding hot air when the coin is sent back in time.  If
you assume that entropy holds (questionable, given that entropy is
time-based; however, we're talking about the ``now'' when you send
the gold coin back in time, so it may hold anyway), you have to put
in more energy than you get out.  So it would take the whole output
of a nuclear power plant (say) to send the coin back in time, and
you end up with somewhat less energy being released by the exchange.

Doesn't sound too useful.  Or too safe, for that matter.  Your
time-travel booth would have to be out in the badlands and would be
one-shot.

As for the above: U(10:00) has two gold coins, one lifted from
U(9:00), which transported an equivalent amout of energy to
U(10:01).  At U(10:01) you have one coin and a coin's worth of heat
and radiation.  Where is the problem (besides getting fried in two
different ways at U(10:01))?

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon
ARPA:  ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@csnet-relay
PHONE: +1 216 974 9210
HOME:   (216) 781-6201 24 hrs.
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------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 21:05:26 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Time travel

> todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM ( - Bill)
> once the time extent IS included, mass/energy within the resulting
> enlarged context remains a conserved quantity.
>
> there may already be support for a looser interpretation - if not
> for discontinuous displacement, then at least for continuous
> retrograde displacement (videlicet time symmetries for
> electrons/positrons as a single particle with two opposing
> temporal vectors).

But note... when such a particle changes timewise direction
pastward, energy is released, and when direction is changed
futureward, energy is consumed.  Thus, in any timelike slice of the
universe, energy is conserved, not just for space-time as a whole.
So Feynman diagrams aren't support for the notion of mass-energy
conservation only applying to space-time instead of space.  (Not
that this notion is ruled out, mind you... just that this view of
antimatter isn't support for it.)

> We are no more disturbed by the circular nature of its temporal
> movement than we would be if it were moving in a spatially
> circular motion on a turntable

But this doesn't address the *major* difference between the cases
brought up, in particular that one is a spiral in space-time, and
the other is a closed loop.  Granted, taking a coin and sending it
into the past multiple times is an analogy for a point on the rim of
a turntable.  The point goes past a given spot in space N times, and
the coin goes past a given spot in time... er... well... "N spaces",
right?  (In any event, at a given point in time you see N coins).

But neither of these involve a closed loop.  There is no space-like
analogy for such a closed loop, unless there are other time-like
meta-dimensions as implied in many time-traveling stories, such as
in Asimov's _The_End_of_Eternity_ and others.

> (it's not at all clear that such physics allows "free will" - but
> then it's not at all clear that CURRENT physics does either).

One notion that is used to elaborate the notion of time-travel in a
few cases is "observer created reality".  That is, the future (and
perhaps even the past) is not only unknown, but *doesn't* *exist*
until it is "traveled to" or observed.  Then it is fixed.  This is
in analogy to the way a particle in QM doesn't *have* (say) a
position until the position is measured.  The act of *observing* the
future (or traveling there) *creates* it, and once created, it is
immutable.  The more folks travel around in time, then, the less
"free will" for everybody.

Not that this notion makes much more sense than many others
regarding time travel... but interesting nevertheless, I suppose.
And these two points are the major factors in my perception of time
travel stories in sf.  Most of these don't make much sense, often
very little indeed.  But there is something primally interesting
about the notion of time travel, so on this account we are
continually inundated with ill-thought-out scenarios.  Sigh.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Sep 86 16:40:55 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Time Travel

In Vonda McIntyre's book THE ENTROPY EFFECT, a scientist sends some
friends of his back in time, to times that they consider "Utopian."
This creates a naked singularity, which begins destroying the
universe. The scientist tries to come back to stop himself, but he
causes so many different time branches to split off that at one
point, he must try to stop himself from becoming a murderer. Another
time, when he comes back to try to stop himself, he sees one of his
friends kill another version of himself, who had also gone back in
time.  I recommend this book, if you think you can keep up with all
the different tracks (Definitely not as bad as Heinlein, though...)

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 86 1101-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #281
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 281

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 13:11:53 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

I [desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins)] wrote:
>   Another calculation: with a 100% efficient rocket drive (e.g.
>matter to energy conversion powering a laser pointed out the back)
>the constant-acceleration 4-LY 10-month one-way trip would require
>a fuel to payload ratio of more than 35:1.  This really is the
>absolute, theoretical limit for a ship powered by onboard fuel.

   Let me clarify this statement.  35:1 is the absolute limit here.
That is, I am saying that it is impossible for a rocket powered by
onboard fuel to make this trip, unless it starts with a 35:1 ratio
of fuel to payload.

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>First of all, this is in no way an absolute, theoretical limit;
>merely a practical constraint which could be violated if rapid
>transmission of the payload were sufficiently valuable.

   There *is* an absolute limit here.  It is *theoretically
impossible* for a rocket to exceed this limit; i.e. to make this
trip with less than a 35:1 fuel-to-payload ratio.  That is all I
have said.

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>I suspect you were incorrectly assuming a constant mass for the
>vessel, including fuel, for the entire voyage.  This is not
>correct; as you expend fuel, you no longer have to carry it.

   Yes, I am not stupid.  I did do the calculation correctly.

>I did the calculations for this a couple of years ago.  It turns
>out that for trips at a fixed acceleration, the ratio of total
>inital mass of the ship including fuel to the delivered mass grows
>exponentially.  The practical constraints are quite real, but there
>is no "theoretical limit" short of the total matter in the
>universe.

   Exponentially as a function of what?  Obviously it grows
exponentially as a function of proper time (if the ship expends a
constant fraction of its mass each second, to maintain a certain
thrust, then of course its mass decays exponentially with time), but
so what?  The interesting question would be how the ratio grows as a
function of distance traveled.

   It turns out that the proper time required to travel a distance
2D is equal to 2 ln (1 + a D + sqrt(a^2 D^2 + 2 a D)).  Since the
fuel ratio grows exponentially with the proper time, we find that
the fuel ratio is asymptotically proportional to the square of the
distance to be traveled.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 23:48:50 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>I finally figured out that he (Frank Adams) meant that the
>acceleration *in* *any* *one* *trip* was constant, and that the
>mass ratio grows exponentially as the trip acceleration.

   Aha!  This is another interesting question.  But it isn't what
Frank meant, since it doesn't come out that way.  The fuel-to-mass
ratio to travel distance 2D at acceleration a is 2 x^2 + (x +
1)sqrt(x^2 + 2 x) + 4 x + 1, where x = a D.  So, for a fixed
distance, the fuel ratio to make the trip at acceleration a is
asymptotically quadratic in the acceleration.
   Another interesting question is: suppose you want to travel a
distance 2D -- what is the fuel ratio required, as a function of the
proper time 2T?  That is; given how far you need to go, how much
more does it cost to get there more quickly?
   If we let R be the ratio of the initial mass to the final mass
(so that the fuel-to-payload ratio is R - 1), then it turns out that

        (sqrt(R) - 1)^2 / sqrt(R) ln(R) = D / T.

The left-hand side is asymptotically proportional to sqrt(R), so if
R is large, this tells us that it is inversely proportional to the
square of the trip time.  But this breaks down for small R, so we
need to examine that case more carefully.  Here is a chart of my
results (D is in LY, T is in years -- D/T = 1 means one light-year
per year of proper time):

   Fuel:Payload      Distance:Time
     1 : 2              .102 : 1
     1 : 1              .175 : 1
     2 : 1              .282 : 1
     5 : 1              .425 : 1
    10 : 1              .642 : 1
   25.3: 1             1.000 : 1

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 86 01:02:31 GMT
From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints

fitz@ukecc.UUCP (Catherine Ariel Wolffe) writes:
>     FTL travel is not explicitly stated in either movie, but it is
>inferred in _Aliens_. How else could the rescue ship reach LV-426
>in only 17 days? And this time is objective. The length of time to
>LV-426 in _Alien_ is far longer than in _Aliens_, because
>technology has changed and the ships can attain greater FTL speed.

   But is the rescue ship coming from Earth or from some closer
outpost?

Kevin Thompson
{ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 86 02:22:08 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

   I have realized that I made a mistake in my original posting on
this subject.  The fuel ratio for the 4 LY, 10 month rocket-ship
trip is not 35:1.  It is 1330:1 (I forgot to square it -- 35:1 for
acceleration, and then another 35:1 to decelerate).  Not what you
would call an easy trip!

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 22:53:49 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox)
Subject: Re: Memory and RNA

>> [me] [re eating brains and absorbing RNA to 'learn' things] ever
>>told you that knowledge was encoded in RNA?!?  Sure, cells'
>>instructions, but do you think that all the stuff you studied in
>>college and high school is packed away as RNA?

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>My understanding is that this is still one of the hot research
>areas of psychobiology.  I think the current understanding is that
>our memory is holographic in some manner, and that, as in a
>hologram, it does not put discrete parts in discrete places.
>[stuff deleted] But given the lack of solid evidence of what *does*
>implement memory, I'm not at all sure I'd care to be as definite as
>that in stating what does not.

Hmm.  Methinks I was a bit hasty here.  Please forget I said
anything about RNA.  *I* sure don't know how memory is stored, if it
really is 'stored' at all.  How's this, though ... For the Aliens to
un-code human memories and re-code them as their own, they would
have to be able to figure out how our brains encode data.  We can't
do that.  So why can they?  And do you think that EATING is the way
to decode and re-encode this?  You think this complex biochemical
analysis and de-recoder is in the Alien's stomache?  Remember that
even the old corpses the Marines found had their heads intact.

This has been a good discussion.  I've enjoyed others' postings; I
hope mine have been at least marginally worth reading.  Keep it up,
people.

"You're not going to offer your suggestion that Shelob was
 an Alien?"

Nah, they can read that in the Weekly World News.

Thomas Cox
CompuServe:  76317,3121
GEnie:  CLIPJOINT
UUCP:   ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  1 Sep 86  11:26:50 EDT
From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Astronomy Undergraduate)
Subject: Aliens (Good Question?)

Thomas Cox wrote earlier:
>>And why didn't she (Ripley) nuke the original space ship???
>
>Ooooh, now here's a good question.  We never saw the alien ship
>from the first movie in THIS movie; we're supposed to forget it.
>There is opening #2 for a sequel.  Anyone want to try to figure out
>how/why Ripley forgot?

Simple.

   Ripley in the first movie was one of the supporting characters
watching her crewmates get killed off systematically by the Alien.
Finally, she found herself to be the last one alive.  I think, for
one thing, survival was the most important thing on her mind, and
not so much the ramifications of leaving the nest behind in tact.
In fact, I doubt seriously if she even was thinking about the nest
at all, while being stalked by the Alien.  So, at this point (trying
to get off the infested Nostromo) Ripley's thoughts were on
self-preservation.
   Now we come to the biz with her leaving in that little shuttle.
She set the Nostromo to self destruct, in hopes of killing the
Alien, since she did not have the hand fire-power to destroy it if
confronted.  Thus, by saving herself, she destroyed any chance of
nuking the original nest, since I doubt that a life pod would be
armed with tactical nuclear armament.  Also, since there was no
settlement established on the planet, I think any thought Ripley
might have had about the nest would have been wiped away with her
certain belief that once she gave her report to the company, the
planet would be quarantined (or something like that, even if that
belief was misguided.)
   Ripley didn't plan on being asleep for 57 years, so she did not
have the foresight to visualize a whole colony on that planet.  What
this boils down to is this: Ripley did not nuke the original site
because 1) She was too occupied with saving her own skin, and 2) She
did not expect that the company would be so idiotic as to set a
colony up on that planet once they had seen her report.
   Any other questions?

SHADOW@UMass.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 86 21:41:31 GMT
From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Aliens (kinda late)

  I have seen Aliens and think I have some answers to some of the
`flaws' people have been pointing out on the net. About the only
things I saw wrong with it were an incredibly stupid blunder, and
the fusion reactor blowing its top so easily.

  Our news is dead. I don't know when this article will hit the net.
I hope the Aliens debate hasn't died by then.

Ripley's nightmare: Very effectively conveys the way she is haunted
by the events shown in Alien. After what she went through, I'd be
surprised if she DIDN'T have nightmares.

Ammo capacity of the M-41A: If you listen closely when Hicks is
describing the weapon you will note that he says "ten millimeter
CASELESS". Observe that they do not spit out a stream of spent
cartridges when fired. Caseless rounds are significantly smaller
than the cased ammo you're used to seeing (no bulky brass), and can
be packed in a magazine more efficiently. The M-41A magazine, which
looked to be about six inches by three by two, could well hold 95
10mm caseless rounds.  Side note: Spent magazines are probably
disposable. Saves time in combat, and since caseless ammo can't be
stuffed into the magazine by hand would probably be cheaper than
transporting a loading machine on the ship.

Why the Lieutenant directs the operation by remote control: Though
we wouldn't do it that way today, maybe they've learned something.
At least it keeps one link in the chain of command intact, which is
an advantage if your commander is competent. It's true that in this
case the best thing the Lieutenant could do would be to get killed
off. (He does redeem himself. Remember when Vasquez runs out of
ammo? The Lieutenant turns back to help her. When they are
surrounded by Aliens, it's the Lieutenant who pulls out and arms a
grenade.)

Why everybody is sent into the Alien nest: Everybody is not sent.
One Marine remains on the lander with the pilot, and Burke, Ripley
and the Lieutenant remain in the ground transport. Bishop too, I
think.

Why the lander is parked with the ramp down: The Lieutenant has
declared the area secure.

Why they don't get wise to the Aliens sneaking in from above: They
only do it twice and the conditions are different. The first time,
they are hiding in the slime-stuff, and they look just like part of
it until they move. The Marines wouldn't know how that stuff is
supposed to look anyway. Second time, they're up in the ceiling
plenum, out of sight.

Are these Aliens wimpy compared to the original?  I don't think so.
Remember, the crew of the Nostromo were civilians with no combat
training, and had no idea what they were up against. At first they
are unarmed, then they build some makeshift weapons which they don't
really get a chance to use. The Colonial Marines are experienced
warriors armed with the latest equipment; it only makes sense that
they will be more effective. Also, Dallas & co.  didn't dare injure
the Alien on board the Nostromo! The Nostromo's primary hull was an
integral part of the hyperdrive generator, with molecular circuits
running all through it. Let Alien-juice eat one hole in the hull and
the hyperdrive will be ruined. If the drive is active at the time,
it could blow up the ship! If it doesn't, the crew will still die of
old age even if they manage to kill the Alien. (Explained in the
book)

What the Aliens eat: Anything they want to. They've had the run of
the colony for several weeks. Also, I think they can sort of
hibernate when inactive, to save energy. That would explain why they
don't pounce on the Marines at once -- either they need a little
time to warm up, or they don't notice them until they start flaming.
Side note -- I think they breathe through those tubes on their
backs.

Why Ripley toasts the Alien eggs: One of the damned things just
opened up. I wouldn't want one - or more - of those hand-crab
monsters at large behind MY back. And she just wrestled with one a
few hours ago.

Why Bishop moves the lander: The platform is unstable. In fact, when
I saw the scene, I expected the platform to collapse when he set
down. The platform looks flimsy, the lander looks solid. As for why
he's out of sight, maybe prolonged hovering puts a strain on the
lander's engines or is horribly wasteful of fuel.

Why Ripley uses a power-loader in her battle with the Alien-Queen:
It's the only thing she can get her hands on. Remember, the Sulaco
is an interstellar troopship, not a battlecraft. I would not expect
to find personal small arms anywhere but on board the landing craft.
Even if there were one or more small-arms lockers in the ship
itself:
   1. Would there be one close to the hangar deck? Time is critical.
   2. Would Ripley know where it is?
   3. Would she be authorized to open it -- have the
      key/combination/access code required? I don't think so. I
      think only the Lieutenant, the Sergeant, Bishop, Hicks and
      Vasquez would be so authorized.
So, the only guns available to Ripley are on board the lander, and
the Queen is in the way. Ripley is forced to improvise with the
power-loader.

Why Ripley doesn't lose a leg: The Queen grabbed her boot, and it
came off.  It looked like part of her pant leg came off too.

Incredibly stupid blunder: Ripley goes into the Alien nest WITHOUT
SPARE MAGAZINES FOR THE M-41A! NO-body that stupid could live to
adulthood.

Alien origin: I agree with the posters who think Aliens are
genetically engineered weapons. They are completely efficient,
adaptable to a wider range of environments than any single planet
could provide, and they run through the available supply of hosts in
short order. Any successful evolved parasite would have to somehow
leave a breeding stock of hosts. Also, a naturally evolved critter
would of necessity be adapted to use the organisms present on its
home planet; these have no trouble with a completely alien host.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
...loral!dml

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 86 1113-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #282
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 282

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Clarke (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 86 17:19:08 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Clarke's Writings on Religion

I'm almost always interested in religion and faith as subjects of
fiction, and I've followed Clarke ever since his books were
available to me.  Religion and the supernatural are frequent themes
in Clarke's writing.  Unfortunately, there is a streak of naivete in
his writing which tends to position him in a state of
oversimplification.

Clarke's view of religion as it is is typically hostile in a casual
sort of way; his treatment is anthropological, and his thesis is
that religion persists because we don't know any better.  Behind
this (in the books) is presented a mixture of wishful thinking and
overstatement.

For instance, in _Songs of Distant Earth_, there is a chapter titled
"Whatever Gods May Be..." in which he explains how religion came to
pass away.  He presents basically two arguments, of which the second
is the classic "limits to knowledge" argument based on Godel.  This
argument is useless because it assumes that the kinds of systems
Godel concerned himself with are the only interesting, useful, or
possible kinds.  We simply don't know that, and there's no
confidence that we could know that.  The first argument is wishful
thinking; nobody knows whether or not a statistical analysis of
so-called miracles or good and evil would come out one way or
another (and the incentives for falsification of data would be great
indeed).  Furthermore, a negative result wouldn't prove much beyond
"the actions of a supposed supernatural are not detectable in this
way," which, when you think about it, is not much of a conclusion.

In _Childhood's End_, religion is abolished by machines showing the
past.  No one in the book stops to question the motives of the
Overlords or bothers to consider that they are being lied to.  (Not
to mention that the notion of the lives of the prophets *are* going
to be disenchanting.)  Here we also see Clarke's oddly occultish
humanism, which is also an important feature of _2001_ and _2010_.

Generally, people reading books like this for the religious content
ought to remember that they are being sold a bill of goods.
Religious fiction, pro and con, is in a fundamental way based on an
unreality.  One's critical antennae should be fully active, and the
proper reading mode should be one of a certain skepticism.  It
should also be remembered that religion is not a single thing, nor
is it a scale.  I enjoyed _Time Bandits_ a lot, even with its
negative religious message, because it wasn't MY religion that was
being satirized.  Read in this way, I don't think a work of fiction
presents any grave danger, and I myself find the differing
viewpoints stimulating (although in all fairness, there are a lot of
things I would rather only read once).  It's uncritical reading,
without any attempt at context or contrast, which is intellectually
dangerous-- not because it causes thinking, but because it creates
the illusion of thought, when really all that is happening is
reaction.  There's no virtue in a fundamentalist picking up Clarke,
reading it, and simply abandoning his "obselete" religion.
Likewise, there's no virtue in christianity as a flight from secular
atheism.  There's no thought involved; it's all just emotional
reaction against one's supposedly more childish state.  One
unthinking position is merely traded for another, with all the same
flaws (and usually, the added fault of pseudosophistication).

By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at various
stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these books with
the proper sort of critical attitude.  Back when I was in 6th grade
and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not appreciate the
casual racism and often sexism that permeates much of his writing.
If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I would discourage them
from reading a lot of the same books, because they would be most
unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were reading and reject
what was racist or sexist in the writing.  So in that sense there is
some purpose for review boards, as long as their purpose is not
intellectual purity.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 16:31:49 GMT
From: thain@magic.DEC.COM (Glenn Thain)
Subject: Re: Clarke's Writings on Religion

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
> I'm alomst always interested in religion and faith as subjects of
> fiction, and I've followed Clarke ever since his books were
> available to me.  Religion and the supernatural are frequent
> themes in Clarke's writing.  Unfortunately, there is a streak of
> naivete in his writing which tends to position him in a state of
> oversimplification.

     I think there is a danger here, which needs to be brought out
in the open.  Clarke writes *fiction*, taking ideals and social
situations and adding elements of the unusual to them. It's
unfortunate that in the article, Mr. Wingate has forgotten the basic
premise of fiction which to tell an unbelievable story in such a way
that the reader will buy into the reality being presented. Mr.
Wingate has decided that Clarke is to be a spiritual teacher rather
than an entertainer. A dangerous line of reasoning, no?

> Clarke's view of religion as it is is typically hostile in a
> casual sort of way; his treatment is anthropological, and his
> thesis is that religion persists because we don't know any better.
> Behind this (in the books) is presented a mixture of wishful
> thinking and overstatement.

     Most fictional representations of religion are overstated. Your
attack upon the man's work is based on some idealogical thought that
what he should be presenting is some Christian ideal by which people
could glean a greater knowlage and insight about God.

> ( various of Clarke's books subjected to critical analysis deleted)
>
> Generally, people reading books like this for the religious
> content ought to remember that they are being sold a bill of
> goods.

     People reading these for religious content should focus on the
fact that this is one man's opinion of where he sees modern religion
headed. The fact that he remains ambigious is because of all the
social/political rammifications which must be taken into account.
Furthermore, he is after all writing *fiction* and not historical
theory. People reading books like this for religious content should
subscribe to the WATCHTOWER instead.

> Religious fiction, pro and con, is in a fundamental way based on
> an unreality.  One's critical antennae should be fully active, and
> the proper reading mode should be one of a certain skepticism.

     "One's critical antennae?" Your treatment of the man's work was
at best poor, and you talk about critical antennae? ( Whatever they
may be?) I'm amazed that you tried to glean any religious content
out of it at all!

> It should also be remembered that religion is not a single thing,
> nor is it a scale.  I enjoyed _Time Bandits_ a lot, even with its
> negative religious message, because it wasn't MY religion that was
> being satirized.

     Great, so it's o.k. to poke fun at other's religions, not
yours. I'm convinced now that the Christian God DOES have a sense of
humor!

> Read in this way, I don't think a work of fiction presents any
> grave danger, and I myself find the differing viewpoints
> stimulating (although in all fairness, there are a lot of things I
> would rather only read once).  It's uncritical reading, without
> any attempt at context or contrast, which is intellectually
> dangerous-- not because it causes thinking, but because it creates
> the illusion of thought, when really all that is happening is
> reaction.  There's no virtue in a fundamentalist picking up
> Clarke, reading it, and simply abandoning his "obselete" religion.
> Likewise, there's no virtue in christianity as a flight from
> secular atheism.  There's no thought involved; it's all just
> emotional reaction against one's supposedly more childish state.
> One unthinking position is merely traded for another, with all the
> same flaws (and usually, the added fault of pseudosophistication).

     Uncritical? Trying to find religious content in fiction,
claiming that since it didn't exist or that religion was badly
handled them mauling the works is uncritical judgement? No wonder
there was an Inquisition! ( My Lord, the Church judges upon the
evidence presented, as it was handed down by God, we remain
uncritical of the defendent! She *IS* a Witch!)

> By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at
> various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these
> books with the proper sort of critical attitude.  Back when I was
> in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not
> appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much
> of his writing.  If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I
> would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books,
> because they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what
> they were reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the
> writing.  So in that sense there is some purpose for review
> boards, as long as their purpose is notintellectual purity.

     What makes you think your children will see any more in a
Heinlein book than you did? Usually adults are the only one's to see
the sexual innuendos, racism, and underlying themes of hatred of amn
against man. Many children only see a good adventure story.

     Review Boards serve no purpose but to shove someone else's idea
of morality down another's throat. There is no guarantee that these
people, once placed in a position of power, wouldn't abuse it.
Frankly, I wouldn't like to live through another Dark Ages period,
but I'm sort of funny in that respect.  You, Ray Frank, and Larry
Morales seem to disagree. If you want to live your lives this way, I
have no complaint. Just don't attempt to drag me under with you.
Evanglism has it's place, in the home and church, not in the street.

Glenn
thain@src.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 23:00:10 GMT
From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi)
Subject: Re: Clarke's Writings on Religion

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at
>various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these
>books with the proper sort of critical attitude.  Back when I was
>in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not
>appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much
>of his writing.  If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I
>would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books, because
>they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were
>reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the writing.

Two comments:

1) I have read a lot of Heinlein, and I don't remember his works as
   being permeated with racism and sexism.  Could you provide
   examples?

2) The phrase "protecting my children from reading certain ideas
   until they are old enough to evaluate them", when translated into
   Russian by a computer program and translated back again, becomes
   "preventing them from reading those ideas until they have been
   sufficiently conditioned to reject those ideas".  Superficially,
   it looks like the computer goofed again, but I'm not quite
   sure...

David Canzi

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 23:07:36 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Clarke's Writings on Religion

Glenn Thain replies at length to an article by Charlie Wingate.

Rather than quote at length from both articles I will take up
specifics with Glenn by mail.  However, I do want to comment on a
few minor points.

Glenn compares Charlie's desire to discourage his children from
reading Clarke's (and Heinlein's) works until they have developed
the critical faculties which would allow them to distinguish the
inherent biases in those works, to the Communist Chinese scholastic
training methods.

Glenn, this is not only a cheap shot but an incredibly naive thing
to say.  Science fiction is a story telling medium, but that does not
mean that the authors ignore the opportunity to give out their
political views.

This is especially true of these two writers.  Clarke's
philosophical bias is aggressively advanced in his books by two
major techniques: first, the storylines are set up to "prove" his
philosophy, which is presented by one or more characters, and
second, the identification-figures in his books, the heroes and
those persons from whose point of view the story is told, all
express his philosophy.  Clarke's attitude towards religion IS
pervasive in his books, presented in a subliminally coercive
fashion, and it is very appropriate to be concerned that someone who
is reading the work as fiction, with many critical faculties "turned
off" in relaxation, will adopt that attitude, at least for a while.

Heinlein is more blatant with his philosophic meanderings, having
his lead characters (which are pretty much the same character
talking through different masks) go into extended talking-head
spiels.

At any rate, Charlie as a parent has a responsibility to raise his
children, and the goals he has in that raising most likely include
training an ethical sense, giving them the tools to rationally
understand the world around them and other people, and so forth.
You do NOT have this degree of immediate responsibility towards his
children and should not censure him for expressing his desire to
raise them to be analytical of the things they read.

Some contributors (in the net.religion distribution of this article)
have expressed their political desire to abolish and forbid teaching
of religious precepts to children.  That amounts to the legal
establishment of those individuals' personal religious beliefs, and
fortunately we in America have a Constitution which prevents this
sort of thing.

The only remaining question is, "is it ethical to control what your
children read?" and the answer is, unfortunately, a situational one.
Under some circumstances it is a good idea to restrict their
reading, television, movies, and so forth, until they have learned
the skills necessary to understand what messages are implied as well
as explicit in what they are watching.  Most parents don't know how
to teach those skills because they themselves don't have them.  In
the long run, what a parent chooses to censor will be irrelevant.
The child will either subvert the parent's wishes or will no longer
be under the parent's control.  THAT is why the important part of
what Charlie was saying is, "until they can spot such hidden
messages".

Hutch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 86 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #283
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 283

Today's Topics:

       Films - Submarine Movies (2 msgs) & Jittlov (2 msgs) &
               Cronenberg (2 msgs) & SF Films on Video (2 msgs) &
               Gross and Disgusting Movies & Big Trouble in Little China &
               Impulse & Silent Running (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 16:49:04 GMT
From: rayssdb!iws@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes
Subject: from)

> I agree--"Run Silent Run Deep" is the archetypical submarine
> movie, which I remember more for its having Don Rickles in the
> cast than anything else, but it was a tense one.  Perhaps more
> cerebral was the destroyer vs. sub battle of "The Enemy Below".
> Anyone want to discuss submarine flicks?

Yes, I would like to read more about submarine movies.  Especially
since we at SubSig are in the submarine business!  To the two
mentioned above I would add "Operation Petticoat" and "Gray Lady
Down".  The former is quite good: the first half is hilarious and
the second provides some good action scenes.  The latter supposedly
takes place in the present, but is grossly inaccurate in terms of
the submarine it is supposed to be versus what is actually in the
fleet.

A good foreign flick was "Das Boot" ("The Boat") with a lot of
suspense and action as well as the usual futility of effort during
wartime.  I saw this movie the night before I went out on a
submarine ride - it definitely put me in the right frame of mind!

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 04:54:19 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Silent Running movie song (where the title comes from)

Writing late at night I generated this verbal fruit cocktail.  Let
me rewrite some of it.

>Both are good films with ENEMY BELOW probably having the edge.  (It
>has been too long since I saw RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP.  Both seem
>rather Hollywoodish beside DAS BOOT (THE BOAT).  That is probably
>the most realistic submarine film and one of the tensest.  I
>understand that the one cinematic convention

...that the film followed was that the crew was reasonably fully
clothed.  On the real U-boats...

>the men quickly stripped to wearing at most underwear and often
>nothing.  The book makes a point of how hot it is on the sub, but I
>don't know if it talked about the state of undress of the men.

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 02:54:00 GMT
From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Jittlov news?

Did anyone out there go to one of the Jittlov presentations in
Atlanta? Any news on status of the film or anything else he's been
up to lately?

Wombat
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 86 18:03:39 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Jittlov news?

wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>Did anyone out there go to one of the Jittlov presentations in
>Atlanta? Any news on status of the film or anything else he's been
>up to lately?

In a series of interesting conversations at Atlanta, the following
fact-like phrases turned up:

   1) "Wizard of Speed and Time", the feature, has completed
       principle photography, and is expected to be released in late
       Spring or early Summer of '87.
   2) WOSAT, the short, has been reshot in 35MM, with added stuff
       such as a trip around the world.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 05:44:27 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: The Fly (Cronenberg filmography)

Cronenberg filmography:

1966 TRANSFER

1967 FROM THE DRAIN

1969 STEREO excruciatingly dull

1970 CRIMES OF THE FUTURE excruciatingly dull

1975 PARASITE MURDERS/SHIVERS/THEY CAME FROM WITHIN a genuine step
up, a tongue in cheek horror film with some very good touches in
spite of ludicrous premise

1976 RABID Marilyn Chambers film, still not very good, a step below
PARASITE MURDERS

1979 FAST COMPANY

1979 THE BROOD slow but interesting horror film that makes for the
first time some serious social comment

1980 SCANNERS solid science fiction action film, some great images

1982 VIDEODROME topical, but eventually Cronenberg loses most of his
audience, some nice touches

1983 DEAD ZONE under the control of his producer, this is
Cronenberg's most normal film, cold but effective study of psychic
powers

1986 THE FLY in spite of gross-out effects and interesting study of
a man in transition to something nonhuman

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 09:18:12-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: David Cronenberg's films

> From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
> My final question is, has anyone seen the earlier films by this
> demented director?  I believe they are Scanners and Videodrome.  I
> have heard they are quite gory and bizarre too.  Are they similar
> in quality to The Fly or just pure gore?  If they are like The
> Fly, I will want to see them sometime, but I want to avoid gore
> for gore's sake.

Cronenberg is a very strange and idiosyncratic director. His films
often fail for varying reasons, but I think that they're brilliant
failures. He has a very disturbing vision that makes his films worth
watching. In most cases, there isn't much gore at all in his films
(of course, what constitutes "gore" varies from person to person),
but the images are often disturbing nonetheless. A brief run-down of
the ones I've seen:

THE PARASITE MURDERS (aka THEY CAME FROM WITHIN and SHIVERS)
   A doctor creates a parasite that is a combination aphrodisiac and
   venereal disease, and it infects the inhabitants of an apartment
   complex. Some of the effects of the slugs transferring from one
   person to another is rather gross, but not really gory.
RABID has a really dumb premise in which some strange skin grafting
   turns Marilyn Chambers into a vampiric type who in the process of
   "quenching her thirst" turns her victims into rabid killers. If
   you can accept the premise, the rest actually goes pretty nicely.
THE BROOD is a tad more pyschological than the others, and is
   harder to describe. There is a fair amount of blood involved, but
   no reall gore that I can recall.
SCANNERS recalls the George Hamilton film THE POWER, in its story
   that's basicly about a hunt and battle between two psi-powered
   people. An exploding head in the beginning, and the
   blood-vessel-popping battle at the end are the only real gory
   scenes.
VIDEODROME is a very bizarre psychological study involving sadism,
   television, and the nature of reality. There are some scenes that
   might be considered gory, such as the main character pulling
   objects out of his stomach, but it's not too bad.
THE DEAD ZONE, based on Stephen King's novel, is extremely mild
   mild compared to the others. Only one grisly scene (which seemed
   gratuitous in context), thankfully brief.

THE FLY was, to my mind, the most gruesome of the bunch. It actually
made me feel "squirmy", which few other films, including the other
Cronenberg's, have done. The only other film of this type of recent
vintage was RE-ANIMATOR.

But you don't have to take my word for all this. The only scene in a
fiction film that I couldn't bear to watch at all was in THE
EXORCIST, when what's-her-name was given a spinal tap in the
hospital.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 08:10 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>> King Kong  (1933 w/Fay Wray)
>Did anybody else find that this was better, even in its effects,
>than the later version (which gave Jessica Lange such a bad name
>until she proved so very well what she could do)?

Absolutely.  I still can't believe the Sam Peckinpawish end of the
remake, with helicopter gunships blowing huge bloody holes into Kong
for what seemed an eternity.  What a piece of junk!

>> Logan's Run
>For anybody who has only seen the abortive TV series that tried to
>stand on this one's feet, take heart: the film is *far* better.
>Micheal York is great as Logan.  Pardon my memory, but I can't
>remember who played the woman with whom he "run"s.  She is also
>very good, though.

Jenny Agutter.

>> Planet of the Apes  (the whole series)
>The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based, is, to my
>mind, far better than the films, even the first one.  The main
>story is contained between a most interesting prologue and
>epilogue.

The book was by Pierre Boulle.  Who's Berton Rouche?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 10:04:31 EDT
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: Planet of the Apes, Correction

>> Planet of the Apes  (the whole series)
>The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based,

Pierre Boulle wrote the original book, which is much more of a
wowser than any of the films, although they had their [naive] charm
at odd moments.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Sep 86 16:19:38-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies

In response to the inquiry about G&D movies, I think a distinction
should be made between G&D movies (e.g. Friday 13th, Halloween, etc)
and movies that happen to use G&D effects.  I think The Fly falls
into the latter category.  It is a great film that people will enjoy
for its story, characters, ideas, etc., not just the special
effects.  It has a purpose besides merely disgusting the audience.
Admittedly, disgusting the audience seems to be one of its goals,
but this disgust contributes to the movie.  It is not gratuitous
gross-and-disgustingness, but G&Dness with a purpose besides simply
being G&D.

I don't go to true G&D movies, but it has always been my
understanding that people who do go only to watch the death and
dismemberment, and they have no interest (or at best, secondary
interest) in the plot or characters.  Now I imagine such a person
who sees The Fly will come away satisfied with "the good parts" but
feeling annoyed at how "slow" the movie was in the first half and
complaining of all the time wasted on extraneous plot details...
Sure, The Fly had G&D scenes, very strong ones in fact, but the
style of the film is entirely different from a typical G&D film.

There are many movies with G&D scenes which I think few people would
claim are G&D movies.  A good example is Indiana Jones & the Temple
of Doom, with its scene of the priest ripping out the heart.

It seems analogous to hardcore porn versus sexy films.  The fuzzy
line between the two is not drawn according to WHAT is shown, but
HOW & WHY.  At least that's the way reasonable people draw it; I
suppose Fundamentalist types use the former criterion...

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 17:23 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: "Big Trouble in Little China"

    I'm only two months behind on my reading .  .  .  sorry.  I went
to see "Big Trouble in Little China" and the thing that impressed me
the most was the lack of blood and gore.  (I like that--the lack,
that is.)  Not as bloodless as Raiders of the Lost Ark, but nearly.
And, I did enjoy the humor and Kurt's character portrayal.

Roz (aka RTaylor at radc-multics)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 17:33:12 GMT
From: rlvd!nbc@caip.rutgers.edu (Neil Calton)
Subject: Re: Was this movie ever released? (possible spoilers)

yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu.UUCP writes:
>A couple years ago, I remember seeing a trailer for an sf movie
>based on an interesting premise.  The main idea was that
>*something* had caused all of the people in a town (city, state,
>country, world???) to act on their impulses without any
>inhibitions.  The clip include scenes where a kid was setting fire
>to a building, a sheriff was shooting at the kid with a rifle, and
>a man and a woman were kissing, and I think some people were
>smashing their cars into any vehicles in the way.
>
>I believe the title of the movie was something like "Impulse", and
>I saw an early pre-release ad for "Lifeforce" at the same time.
>
>Does anyone know anything about this film?

The film was called 'Impulse' and was directed by Graham Baker. It
was made in the USA in 1984 but was not released in GB until March
1986. It featured Meg Tilly, Tim Matheson, Hume Cronyn, Bill Paxton.

Basic plot involves an earthquake opening subterranean storage
chambers and a mysterious substance leaking out. This causes
everybody in the nearby town to act completely on impulse - playful,
violent, mischievous, self-destructive - and the place is sealed off
by government officials.

The reviewer in Monthly Film Bulletin described it as a paranoia
movie in the tradition of 'The Crazies' and 'Endangered Species'.
Apparently, the dislocations of normality are not very sensational -
urinating in the high street, petty robbery, adultery in a bar,
although there is the sheriff shooting a kid, a doctor turning off
his patient's respirator and a hint of incest. However, the film
shuns any holocaustic ending - the blame being laid on a callously
homicidal government agency.  (See MFB Vol. 53, No. 626 March 1986).

BTW, it is rather ironic that a brand of perfume on sale in this
country is called Impulse and the ads. on tv feature these clean cut
guys getting the mad impulse to buy flowers when they whiff the
scent on a passing girl. Wonder if the company knows about the film?

Neil Calton
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory,
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon  OX11 0QX
England
Tel: (0235) 21900   ext 5740
UUCP:   ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!nbc
ARPA: @ucl-cs.arpa:nbc@vd.rl.ac.uk
JANET: nbc@uk.ac.rl.vd
       N.B.M.CALTON@uk.ac.rl

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 15:20:51 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Silent Running (2)

> From: decwrl!carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com  (Paul Carnell)
> ...This movie came out just when [Joan Baez's] anti-war preaching
> was at its zenith and the "establishment" had had about enough. I
> beleave this film was banned in Boston, I know it was pulled from
> theaters by the now defunct Maryland Censor Board. And it's rated
> "G" no less!

I don't recall that this film was "banned in Boston", since I saw it
here when it was released.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 15:18:43 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Silent Running (1)

> From: minnie!chris    (Chris Grevstad)
>>There *isn't* a song named "Silent Running" on the soundtrack.
>>Look at it again, and you'll see that it's called "Running
>>Silent". It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, but I believe
>>that both songs appear in the film.
>
> Beg to differ here.  I just saw the movie and there certainly was
> the song "Silent Running" in the movie.  At least it is listed in
> the credits.

I did not say that the song was not in the film. In fact, if you
re-read the quote from me above, I said I believed that it was. But
I re-iterate: the title of the song was "Running Silent", *not*
"Silent Running".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 86 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #284
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 284

Today's Topics:

               Television - Science Fiction Theater &
                       Ultraman (3 msgs) & Macross &
                       Space Cruiser Yamato & Star Trek &
                       Jonny Quest & Barbara Eden &
                       More Old SF TV (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 13:33:06 GMT
From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal)
Subject: old TV show

I've only just started (again, after a long absence) reading the
newsgroup, so I may have missed one of the responses on this topic,
but...  Does anyone remember a weekly show called "Science Fiction
Theater"?  I used to watch it in the early sixties, but it may have
been reruns even then.  Being a naive little twit, I had no idea
whether it was a dumb show or not, but I do recall that it was a
little more serious than most, then or now.  It wasn't really
intended to be thrilling, or terrifying, (like Outer Limits or
Twilight Zone), or even that adventuresome, but was rather more a
fictionalized study/investigation/exploration of some far-out idea.

One of the more 'adventurous' ones involved a man trapped under car
out in the desert who spontaneously developed the ability to
transmit thought, thereby calling for aid from his wife or a friend
or some such.  I forget if he lost the ability after he was rescued.
I think some parallel was drawn with the hysterical strength some
people have in their need to rescue someone -- lifting cars,
whatnot.  Otherwise, an old story.

Another story, much more laboratory-oriented, was about how sound
waves had been recorded on solidifying lava or some such, thus
recording voices and other sounds involved in the volcanic
destruction of Pompeii (?).

I recall the introductory part of one, showing a largish glass tank
in which gases were being ionized with large electrical sparks as
part of experiments exploring the origins of life in the primordial
soup.

Now for the triva question (to which I do not know the answer): What
was the name of the host, who ended each show with "Our story, of
course, is fiction; but the scientific principles are real." (or
something close to that), and: "Until then, this is your host,
_______, saying ``See you next week''".

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 05:19:18 GMT
From: cec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: (-: pH's SF-Lovers Digest :-)

JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>Has everyone forgotten "Ultraman"? . . .
>Does anyone remember more?

   Just to get my two cents in: I loved how the "super-weapon"
(which looked like it was just a bigger version of their ray
pistols, though not so big that it couldn't be hand-held), which was
always their last hope (aside from Ultraman), _never_ worked against
any of the monsters.  Also the brilliant theme song, of course:

   Ultraman!  Ultraman!  Here he comes from the sky!
   Ultraman!  Ultraman!  Watch our hero fly!
   In a super-jet he comes from a million miles away,
   from a distant planet! . . .
   [Here my memory gives out.  The rest, anyone?]

pH

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1986 11:00 CST
From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock)
Subject: Old SF TV Shows

   With all this talk of old SF Television programs, why has no one
mentioned...ULTRA MAN!  I remember watching this show quite a lot
when I was a kid (I assume somebody else out there MUST have seen
it.  I saw it on either the CBC or CTV, and neither one of them are
intelligent enough to run something that they haven't found on the
American Networks...).
   I distinctly remember the final (??) episode, when Ultra-Man gets
into a pitched battle with one of the monsters he had already killed
in some previous show, but which had come back.  He was pinned down
and was unable to change back when his chest "warning light" began
to flash.  He won the fight, then died (or at least fell over and
went into a coma).  Another Ultra-Man then arrived (I guess there's
an entire race of them, or something...), and took his body home,
along with his still active "soul" or mind.
   As I recall, Ultra-Man came to Earth originally to explore it or
something, and accidently killed a young Japanese man who was a
member of the "Japanese Monster Patrol" or something like that.  He
felt guilty, so he either replaced the dead man, or reincarnated him
as a part of himself.  Either way, he used the guy as his secret
identity, changing into Ultra-man to fight the many monsters that
attacked Japan in the mid-1960's or so (seemed to be about one or
two of them every week!!).

John Bertram Geis
<GEISJBJ@UREGINA1>

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 18:17:00 GMT
From: render@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman)

cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>Boy, that brings back memories, Ultraman came to Earth while
>chasing an intergalactic monster. He accidently kills a human, but
>in his compassion shares his life with the human. To become
>Ultraman, he must raise the Beta Capsule (the small metallic
>device). Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little
>light on his chest would start blinking, telling him that the
>Earth's sun was starting to drain his energy. If the light stopped
>blinking, Ultraman would die. I also remember his ray that he fired
>by crossing his arms in front of his face.  Anybody else want to
>add more...

Yeah!  I liked it best when he threw what looked like circular saw
blades and cut the critters in two.  And where else do you see
N-hundred foot tall robots use Karate on monsters from outer space?

Hal Render
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
render@b.cs.uiuc.edu           (ARPA)
{seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render (USENET)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 86 18:17:41 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan)
Subject: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

I have a couple of questions which seem appropriate for
net.sf-lovers and net.comics. _Email_ me flames if you think this is
the wrong forum for these. If anyone is interested in commenting,
feel free to email to me and I will summarize and post in a few
weeks.

Somehow I've gotten into the Japanese animation stuff, especially
the Macross/Robotech stuff. After attending some related panels at
the Worldcon in Atlanta, this occurred to me:

The "good guys" in Macross seem very western, while the "bad guys"
seem (at least in the American translation) to embody much of the
culture of feudal Japan. Do you think Macross is an allegory for the
infusion, and eventual dominance, of western cultural myths over the
native Japanese myths? Have the Japanese forseen this (surely they
have), and do they in fact see it as (eventually) a positive
influence? Or is it just a good story and I'm making too much of my
early, somewhat literary background?  (Acknowledgement to David
Brin).

John Sloan
jsloan@wright.{CSNET,UUCP}
...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan
Computer Science Department
Wright State University, Dayton OH, 45435
+1 513 873 {2987,2491,2622}, +1 513 426 8082

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 04:04:42 GMT
From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Space Cruiser Yamato (was Re: OLD SF-TV)

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes:
>>>And, while we're on a list of Japanimation, how about:
>>>     Space Cruiser Yamato    (a.k.a. Star Blazers)
>>Wasn't this the one where the space ship wants to stop at a planet,
>>so it drops an anchor down to the planet?
>
>No, no, no.  You're thinking of CAPTAIN HARLOCK.
>
>YAMATO was the one where they brought everyone back from the dead
>for the last movie, oddly called FINAL YAMATO.  Yeah, they find a
>cure for radiation death, no matter how many years dead the victim
>is!

Yeah, but I didn't see that one. They still had an anchor, that they
used when they were being blasted in Pluto's orbit. The anchor was
attatched to Pluto's moon (interesting that it wasn't discovered
until after the series was made) and then got blasted off.

Sean Rouse
ARPA:   cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:   ucbvax!cory!cc-30
USnail: 2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 86 10:16 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Star Trek Milestone

From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Astronomy Undergraduate)
>Did anyone read the Boston Globe Yesterday?  (8/16/86)
>
>   20 years ago, when NBC refused the first pilot for a TV series
>called "Star Trek", it's creator later asked (when the series got
>off the ground) Paramount Pictures if he could salvage his hard
>work and merge the original pilot somehow.  I am, of course,
>speaking of the only 2-part episode, "The Menagerie", where most of
>the footage of the never aired pilot, "The Cage" ended up.
>Unfortunaltely, Paramount did not want to pay $200 to make another
>print of "The Cage" just to cut up and use in "The Menagerie" and
>so, the only copy in existence was spliced, and cut up to fit for
>this episode.
>   About a year ago, Gene Roddenbery (sp?) decided to find all the
>frames from "The Cage" and see what he could do with them.  It was
>a long laborious 'trek' through the film vaults, but he managed to
>get all the original film spliced back together, and reprocessed.
>(It was severly damaged in sections) A black and white print has
>been made, and was premiered for the first time publically at the
>New York Museum of Broadcasting, where it will play for the next 2
>months, in celebration of Star Trek's 20th anniversary.  Just a
>little piece of nostalgia I found noteworthy of relating here.

I'd hate to disagree with the Boston Globe, but this is a crock.  In
1976, Roddenberry was doing his college tour series and showed up at
Rochester Institute of Technology.  (This appearance made up part of
the Inside Star Trek spoken word album.)  His talk included the
running of a black and white copy of The Cage.  Roddenberry said at
the time that, although the pilot was filmed in color, all of the
known color copies had been destroyed.  So, if they really showed a
B&W print at the New York Museum of Broadcasting, it was ten years
too late for a premiere.  Even a premiere for the second time :-).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Sep 86  13:10 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: old sci-fi TV...

My favorite Jonny Quest episode is the one where they are trapped on
a deserted ship in mid-ocean, while they are being hunted down by
this hulking horror which resembled the Ymir from the movie
"20,000,000 MILES FROM EARTH"...I also liked the one where Race had
a dog-fight with this crazed old baron who lived in the mountains
and hunted vultures...

Anyone living near Scranton, Pa. or having cable access to channel
44 out of that city should check it out Saturday nights - starting
at 11:30, they show 3 Star Trek episodes and an Outer Limits,
without commercial interruptions...

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 19:11:10 GMT
From: well!slf@caip.rutgers.edu (Sharon Lynne Fisher)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

>Barbara Eden played Jeannie.  I think she was also in the George
>Pal version of _The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao_.  I can't think of
>anything else related to SF that she's been in at the moment.

She was also in a tv movie called The Intruder Within, written by
the same guy who wrote the Star Trek episode The Enemy Within.  She,
along with a bunch of other women, got impregnated by an alien ray
or something.  She got lots of weird symptoms; for example, she'd
drink coffee by the boiling-hot potful.  She also started to read a
lot for the kid; eventually she got to the point where she could
read a book or record by running her hands over it.  I forget how it
ends except that all the knocked-up women end up together in a field
or something.

No, it's not GREAT SF, but...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Sep 86 21:13:31 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: old sci-fi shows...

> 1) MR. TERRIFIC - Mild-mannered Stanley Beamish (a little guy who

I loved this one.  If you're going to do a series with a story as
silly as this, make it as funny as this.  If it wasn't quite "Get
Smart", it was still hilarious.  There were any number of scenes
with "Mr. Terrific" flying by industriously flapping his arms.  I
also recall a scene in which, to get into a train compartment, he
uses his finger as a jigsaw to cut a circular hole in the roof.
Utterly ridiculous and very enjoyable.

> 6) SPEED RACER - Need I say more? Who could forget the Mach-5?

Myself, I preferred "Tom Slick" (part of the gang that included
"George of the Jungle" and "Super Chicken").  As with all that
collection, including "Rocky and Bullwinkle", the jokes and puns
came so fast that you missed half of them if you weren't careful.

>Have you checked out Saturday morning cartoons lately? . . .
> "Kissyfur"

You're not serious!!  They don't really have one called that??
Please??  (I'm too cowardly to go and check for myself).

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86  9:23:26 EDT
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: More Old TV SF

First, any easy one:

** THE AVENGERS **

Not every episode.  But enough.  How about the 'shrinking ray'
episode? 'Nuff said.

And stepping into the wayback machine:

* Tom Terrific

A very old kids cartoon about TT, who flew in this strange aircraft,
could turn into various shapes, had a sidekick named Manfred, and a
nemesis named Crabby Appleton.  I wish I remembered more.

Argueably, I could submit "Bewitched".  More definitely, "Francis
the Talking Mule" (really a bunch of movies), along with "Mr. Ed".
{I'll draw the line before "My Mother The Car".)  And what about "My
Living Doll", with Julie Newmar as -- you guessed it -- your basic
cute female robot.  Umm, has anybody mentioned "Time Tunnel" yet.

On the subject of good cartoons for kids, I'd trade a few quarts of
personal ectoplasm for episodes, or pointers to, "Gerald Mc
BoingBoing" [by the Hubbleys, who did some of the Superman
animations], or, even more eagerly, anything re "Crusader Rabbit",
who preceeded Moose & Squirrel, and got into more cosmic (if less
hysterically funny) adventures.

Gotta go take them Smurfs out of the blender...

ddern@bbn.arpa (@ccb.bbn.com for your domain-style folks)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 19:09:00 GMT
From: convex!poole@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF on TV

 Yes I remember TIME TUNNEL. It was one of my favorite shows at the
time and I've never seen it in syndication. I remember the episode
you're talking about vaguely. It seems that they returned and were
not recognized and couldn't get in. That show had some neat stuff in
it.  Didn't they become lost in time and the guys back at the time
tunnel were always sending these brick like objects back to them to
bring them back? Remember what that was about? I recall an episode
where Darren went back in time and meet himself as a child. Wasn't
TIME TUNNEL done by the same people who did VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF
THE SEA? Like I said I haven't seen this show since I was a kid so
it's not fresh in my memory. It seems like they were always going
back to some big event in history (supposed randomly) and finding
that no matter what they did they couldn't change anything. They
were it seems supposed to be there at that time doing whatever they
were doing. Like the Gary Seven episode on Star Trek.
  Do you recall THE INVADERS? I liked that show and it's being rerun
here in Dallas now on Tuesday nights. I haven't been able to catch
it yet but hope to.  I found a copy of the book THE INVADERS in a
second hand book store in Atlanta years ago. The cover had the
INVADERS saucer and claimed to be about the TV-series but that's
where the simularities ended. I still found the book enjoyable and
have looked for the rest of the series but have yet to see them.

Rick Poole
Convex Computer Corporation
701 Plano Road
Richardson, Texas 75081
214-952-0200

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 86 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #285
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 285

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 23:39:30 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>Second, picking up your fuel as you go along may well be
>>practical.  This nullifies the whole calculation.
>
>   I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard fuel.
>Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is hydrogen
>and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather than
>converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.  I'll
>try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to be
>collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be impractically
>large.

Depends on what kind of sources you think are available.  If you
rely on the general density of interstellar space, you will need a
very large collection area to pick enough of it up.  I suspect that
there may be other bodies between the stars ("Jupiter-like" bodies
-- the results of protostars which were too small for fusion to
ignite).  If these are present with sufficient density, there is no
real problem.  (I am working on a story based on this idea.)

I suspect that 4 L-Y in 10 subjective months is still going to
require enough fuel expenditure to be reserved for emergencies with
very small craft.  Not to mention the accelerations involved -- at
least 10 G, I think.  (4 L-Y at 1 G takes about 5 years subjective
time.)

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 09:59:28 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Memory and RNA

One of the hot theories on neurological memory hardware is that
memory is stored using the DNA of the neurons.  The DNA is not
actually modified, but it is kept in a "wadded-up" state in the
nucleus.  Repressor molecules hold it in a particular shape,
allowing only a particular subset of the DNA to participate in
reactions with RNA; the rest is inaccessible.  Storing memories
consists of a change in repressor molecules.  As I recall, repressor
molecule activity is stimulated by ACT, which is itself stimulated
by caffeine among other things; this provides an explanation for
some results that learning accelerates with the use of caffeine.

Neural DNA is unique in its configuration, and of course it is not
used for cell reproduction.  This theory provides the best
explanation for these facts to date, though that doesn't mean it's
correct.

Other recent results seem to demonstrate a connection between memory
acquisition and the formation of new synapses.  Of course, this is
not exclusive of the repressor-molecule theory.

I don't know of any respectable theory saying that memory is stored
in RNA.  However, it would be theoretically possible to tailor RNA
molecules that, injected into the central nervous system by some
means, would carry out transformations of the neurons in such a way
that new memories are acquired without going through the normal
learning mechanisms.  Whether this would ever be practically
possible is unknown.

As for the holographic theory, beware of it.  It is based on a
simplistic analogy between holograms and memory when either is
partially damaged.  It has no mathematical basis and no real
meaning; it is just a somewhat suggestive analogy.

Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 06:00:16 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: aliens...original idea?

>Does anyone remember a movie called "It!  The Terror from Beyond
>Space"?  I thought of this film the first time I saw 'ALIEN'.
>Anyone else remember this gem?  I haven't seen it in years

SURE I REMEMBER IT AND (sorry, shouting hurts my voice) a lot of
people remembered it when ALIEN came out.  ALIEN was pretty much a
synthesis of PLANET OF THE VAMPIRES (following a rescue beacon,
space explorers find a planet in which a giant alien race is all
dead...  killed by an alien force that goes after the humans) and
IT! THE TERROR FROM BEYOND SPACE (an alien in the ducts of a space
ship, then dispatched in the same way the alien was in ALIEN).
There are also parts of NIGHT OF THE BLOOD BEAST (alien lays its
eggs in a man) or Van Vogt's story "Discord in Scarlet" (egg-laying
alien on rampage in spaceship).

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 86 18:39:55 GMT
From: sdcc12!st94wb@caip.rutgers.edu (wade blomgren)
Subject: Re: Aliens (sequel???)

I am sure this has been discussed/disproved/etc, but I just have to
say it, because I believe it.

The key to the next ALIEN(S) film is that Ripley's cat is a carrier
of some small yet complex spoor which contains the genetic
information required to create a new colony of creatures. Exactly
how this will transpire I do not know, but believe it. It's got to
happen. I mean, have you thought about how much time the damn feline
spent unattended in the first movie? And the look in its eyes.
(shudder) Also how about the way the alien in the first movie looked
at the cat when it was in the escape pod. Anyway, 'infection' can
mean something other than having the egg-pod embryo force it's way
down your throat. I just don't trust that cat.:-)

Wade
.....!sdcsvax!sdcc12!st94wb
.....!sdcsvax!net1!wade
.....!sdcsvax!sdacs!wade

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Sep 86 15:08:42 EDT
From: powelson@harvard.HARVARD.EDU (Larry Powelson)
Subject: Aliens and Human Memory

Memory is thought to be represented in the pattern of strengths of
the connections between neurons in the brain.  Exactly how, nobody
knows -- evidence came from comparing the brains of rats that grew
up in "enriched" environments (with lots of ladders and wheels to
play with) and rats that grew up in blank cages.  Even if the Aliens
knew what top psychologists are cracking their skulls to find out,
I'd imagine after sucking the brains out, the original pattern of
strengths would be quite difficult to reconstruct.

Although I'm no authority on RNA, I thought it only contained
"genetic" information, such as eye color, and primitive instincts,
and did not change from birth.  Thus, it would be impossible for RNA
to contain information learned later in life.

As for worms learning mazes from eating other worms that have
already learned the maze, I would be very interested in reading the
write up for that experiment.

Larry Powelson
powelson@harvard

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 23:43:16 GMT
From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle)
Subject: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

Someone was recently discussing why Ripley went after mama alien in
a loader, instead of grabbing a *real* weapon, which would seem to
be readily available.  The person who answered made a good point
about weapons not necessarily being readliy at hand, even in a
troopship or attack craft. (In the military, control of the
availability of live weapons is referred to as 'weapons
discipline'.)  However, I can think of a number of other reasons
that could make sense, some within the framework of the movie, some
as plot devices to enhance the story.

The disadvantages Ripley faced when getting ready to take on the
alien were primarily in strength and size (height, reach, etc.). The
loader not only offset those disadvantages, but offered the
additional desirable feature of being a tool that Ripley was very
familiar with, ergo, confidence-building.  (i.e., "Leave her alone
you BITCH!" - One of the *great* lines in the movie.)  Considering
the amount of drill she had received with some fairly sophisticated
small weapons systems, I think going for the loader was a natural.
(Also, as was previously pointed out, it was readily available at a
time when availability counted a *lot*.)

Personally, the use of the loader made the scene enormously more
satisfying to watch. I liked the concept of Ripley going one-on-one
with mama, as opposed to just blowing her away. I thought the old
'blow her out the hatch' was a little unimaginative, but what the
heck, it gave Bishop the chance to be a hero, thus redeeming
'synthetic persons' to Ripley.

A couple of other comments. Whoever wrote the dialog either was a
veteran of the military, or had close contact with someone who was.
The dialog of the enlisted people rang very true. My nomination for
best supporting character would be the Hispanic weapons specialist
(Vasquez? I never remember her name.)  She was definitely a person
who had found their niche in life, and was very satisfied with it.
The woman made you believe that she spent her life in search of
targets. The scene where she pulled out spare ammo mags for her and
her buddy was great. Not to mention the sheer ecstasy on her face
when she finally got a chance to open up on something ("Rock and
roll!...").

One minor nag, I don't remember anything being said about the
weapons ammo other than it being 10mm caseless. Was any mention made
of it being incendiary or explosive? It sure seemed to do some
significant damage for a little-bitty 0.393" slug. (Yes I know all
about the .50 cal. machine gun the U.S. uses, but I defy any normal
human to heft one of those and let it rip from the hip!)


Waiting eagerly for the sequel, (I couldn't bring myself to write
drooling.. :=)

Steve Boyle
UUCP.teddy!svb
{decvax, cbosgd, masscomp, mit-eddie, linus}!teddy!svb
GenRad, MS 06, 300 Baker Ave., Concord, MA. 01742

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 10:37:11-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: ALIENS (one more round) [Round 2]

One more reason for not thinking Bishop was a Company rat:

Dramatically, it's wrong. The character was set up to be the object
of Ripley's prejudice. She wanted nothing to do with him because he
was an android and she'd been screwed over royally by an android
previously. Bishop was obviously hurt by her reaction, and very
naively, with a childlike innocence, couldn't understand why she
distrusted him.

Finally, Ripley was put in a position where she *had* to trust him,
had to trust that he'd not leave her behind to get killed when the
atmosphere processor exploded. OK, so she comes back out and finds
the ship gone; she realizes that again she's been screwed over.
Certainly, that scene was done for reasons of suspense rather than
logic, but it made us think for a while that maybe Bishop *was* a
rat after all. But then, he reappears with the ship and saves her.
He seems genuinely happy when she tells him he "did good".

This is not the character of a rat. Writer/director Cameron went to
great lengths to make the audience feel about Bishop the way Ripley
did --- first distrusting him, then trusting him, then feeling
screwed over by him, and finally realizing that he's a good guy
after all. To suggest after all this that Bishop is still a rat
undoes everything that Cameron (to say nothing of the actor, Lance
Henrickson) strived for with the character.

And last, but not least, it's nothing but pure bigotry. Just because
one android proved to be a rat, does that mean *all* androids have
to be suspect, for no other reason than that they're androids?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 09:51:56-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS THEORY

> From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
> ...Ripley dumped the queen into space. We know from previous
> experience that they can survive in space....

We do? In the first film, the Alien doesn't survive in space much
longer (that we know of) than a human being can. It was only a few
minutes between the time that Ripley zapped it out the shuttle's
airlock and when she burned it with the engines.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 09:55:25-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: ALIEN (singular)

From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
>       I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston.
> There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut
> out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own.
> I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien
> ship were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew
> find the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where
> the dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon
> looked much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut
> off the beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did
> anyone else recall this version? Or was it another movie?

Well, I saw the film on its first day of release in Boston, and I
don't recall such a scene in it, which is not to say that it wasn't
there, but just that I don't remember it. I saw the film a few times
fairly soon after that too, I'm sure. It's not on the videotape I
have, nor is it shown in the ALIEN photonovel.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 17:20:34 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Re: Aliens (sequel???)

From:   sdcc12!st94wb
> The key to the next ALIEN(S) film is that Ripley's cat is a
> carrier of some small yet complex spoor which contains the genetic
> information required to create a new colony of creatures. Exactly
> how this will transpire I do not know, but believe it.

Sigh. I just don't understand why you believe this to be true.
There is no hard evidence to suggest it, and more than enough to
discount it.

> It's got to happen.

Why does it "got to happen"?

> I mean, have you thought about how much time the damn feline spent
> unattended in the first movie?

So the cat ran around unattended for a long time in the first movie.
Cats are sneaky and fast. It might well have been able to outrun or
hide from the Alien.

> And the look in its eyes. (shudder)

You obviously haven't looked a cat in the eyes much. Jones didn't
look any different than any other cat.

> Also how about the way the alien in the first movie looked at the
> cat when it was in the escape pod.

What about it? It was curious about this small creature that was
obviously alive, probably wondering if it'd make a good host.

> Anyway, 'infection' can mean something other than having the
> egg-pod embryo force it's way down your throat.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that the Alien can infect a
victim in any other way than by what we've already seen.

> I just don't trust that cat.

That's *your* problem. :-) Again, considering all of the time that
the cat has spent running around without spewing forth Aliens and
dying in the process, I don't think he's about to now.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 86 0831-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #286
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 286

Today's Topics:

           Television - Blake's 7 (2 msgs) & Doctor Who &
                   Quark & Star Trek in Strange Places & 
                   Superman & Japanese Animation (2 msgs) & 
                   More SF on TV (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 18:21:23 GMT
From: princeton!mjg@caip.rutgers.edu (Mordecai Golin)
Subject: Blake's Seven

    My local public television station just started showing Blake's
Seven.  What I've seen so far doesn't answer the big questions like:
  Who is Blake?  Why is he running?  Who is he running from? ...

   Also does anyone know whether the show is still being produced or
if all I'm seeing are old reruns.

Thanks,
Mordecai Golin

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 20:21:06 GMT
From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Yoda: Follower of the Reverend Mother)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven (Spoiler Warning if you've never watched
Subject: the show)

   Blake's Seven is no longer being produced. It lasted for four
seasons, with the first two being the best, and the last being the
worst.  However, this is the first year that it has been shown
publicly in the U.S.

<SPOILER WARNING (If you have never watched Blake's 7)>

Blake: Blake is a criminal. When he was younger, the Federation (who
runs most of the galaxy from Earth, sound familiar?) captured him
for something (which I can't remember) and interrogated him. He was
then placed on board a prison shuttle (in the first episode) to be
shipped off to a prison planet.  There he meets Avon, a computer
expert, Villa, a thief and expert lockpicker, Gann, and Jenna. After
trying to stage a coup on board the shuttle, he, Jenna, and Avon are
sent as "expendable explorers" on board a mysterious space-ship
which the shuttle encounters. The shuttle commander fisrt sent two
Fed thugs on board who got zapped. After taking over this new ship,
they meet Zen, the ship's computer, who (with the help of Jenna)
names the ship "The Liberator".  Following the shuttle, Blake and
co. rescue Gann and Villa from the prison planet. Then, they all
decide to break the oppression of the Federation and assist any
planet that is trying to revolt.

I think that best sums it up. Hopefuly you're still in the first
season, otherwise there are other changes to take place.

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ucbvax!cory!cc-30
USnail:  2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720

------------------------------

Date: Sun 7 Sep 86 00:19:59-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who Roadshow

In the NY Times a week back I saw an article about a travelling Dr.
Who exhibit (a semi-trailer full of props, costumes, etc.) that had
recently been in the NY area-- it sounded like great fun.  The
article mentioned that the exhibit was travelling around the U.S.
Anyone seen this, or have any information on their itinerary?
Thanks.

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sat 6 Sep 86 12:27:27-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Quark

From "The Complete Directory of Prime Time Network TV Shows:"

QUARK

  Situation Comedy

FIRST TELECAST: February 24, 1978
LAST TELECAST: April 14, 1978

BROADCAST HISTORY:
  Feb 1978 - Apr 1978, NBC, Fri 8:00-8:30

CAST:

  Adam Quark.............Richard Benjamin
  Gene/Jean.................Tim Thomerson
  Ficus....................Richard Kelton
  Betty I...............Tricia Barnstable
  Betty II.................Cyb Barnstable
  Andy the Robot.............Bobby Porter
  Otto Palindrome............Conrad Janis
  The Head...................Alan Caillou

Quark was a parody on space adventure epics, which were highly
popular at this time due to the success of the movie "Star Wars."
The setting was the year 2222 A.D. on the giant space station Perma
One, where Adam Quark had been given command of a vital, though not
necessarily romantic, mission: to clean up the garbage in outer
space.  His assignments came from The Head, a disembodied head who
governed the universe, and who was seen only on a TV screen; and
from Otto Palindrome, the fussy chief architect of Perma One....

...Though Quark was supposed to stick to his sanitation patrols, he
often met adventure with such colorful space denizens as the evil
High Gorgon, Zoltar the Magnificent, and ZORGON THE MALEVOLENT.  A
strange mixture of sex, intellectual jokes, and basic slapstick
comedy, QUARK failed to attract a substantial audience and was soon
cancelled.

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 10:20:19 GMT
From: kevin@cs.hw.AC.UK (Kevin Waugh)
Subject: Vulcan greeting in strange places

The BBC were showing "Horror at 37,000 feet" late on saturday
evening.

I would appreciate someone confirming the following observation so
that my friends will stop making appointments for me at the
opticians, psychiatrists and TV repair shop.

In the film an assortment of passengers are trapped aboard a plane
which gets stuck at 37,000 feet.  William Shatner plays the part of
a defrocked priest, who notices that the plane appears not to be
moving, he moves away from the window and sits down.

NOW, as he is sitting, does the background show one of the other
passengers teaching the Vulcan "live long and prosper" salute to a
child?

Or should I take two or three Star Trek episodes and go to bed until
the hallucinations stop?

Kevin.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 20:42:56 GMT
From: wall@boves.dec.com (David F. Wall DTN 297-6882)
Subject: SUPERMAN the TV series

I'm originally from Rhode Island, and I have heard this rumor from a
variety of sources.  It isn't true.  There are noticeable
differences between the top of the Daily Planet building and the top
of the building in Providence.

As for which building it is, someone told me once it's the City Hall
of Los Angeles, but I've never been west of the Mississppi, so I
don't know if that's true.

David F. Wall
Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, MArlboro, MA
UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves|gaynes}.dec.com!wall or
        ...!decvax::{boves|gaynes}::wall
ARPA: wall%{boves|gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 22:09:57 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Japanese culture as reflected in anime and manga

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) writes:
>>The "good guys" in Macross seem very western, while the "bad guys"
>>seem (at least in the American translation) to embody much of the
>>culture of feudal Japan. Do you think Macross is an allegory for
>>the infusion, and eventual dominance, of western cultural myths
>>over the native Japanese myths?
>
>This isn't only true of Macross, but of EVERY Japanese animated
>I've seen.

There has ALWAYS been a tension in Japanese culture between what we
could call the Warrior Myth, with its foundations in simplification
of Bushido and the Samurai feudal culture, and the "softer" emotions
which are by tradition not expressed openly.

The story in Macross, even after the Harmony Gold people disrupt the
harmony of the story for the sake of the gold they can get out of
it, is still a story about how a culture can become decadent and not
know it.  By becoming exclusively warriors, the Zentraedi have
thrown away those things which made their culture worthwhile, even
viable.  THAT is the fundamental point of the story.  Any allegory
between Feudal Japan is very weak.  You might make a stronger
connection between the militaristic ruling clique which held power
during WWII and which did not really represent the desires of the
people of Japan, and the Zentraedi leaders.  However, in the Macross
story the Zentraedi warriors engage in what could be called a mass
revolt, when exposed to those elements of a larger culture which
they lack.  This is maybe an idealized dream, and if you want to put
some sort of racial-guilt allegory in here, it would be that the
animators, as representatives of the "enlightened" society, feel
that their WWII leaders might have changed their ways if they had
really understood other societies.  But that is also a fairly weak
allegory.

>The "good guys" aren't all Western: I seem to remember an uncle
>(father?)  of Minmei's that was Japanese, and the doctor on Cpt.
>Harlock's ship is, also. (BTW, see how they portray Japanese?
>Short, fat, balding, eyes set to either side of their _nostrils_,
>pug noses, etc.?  What kind of self- image do these people have?)

Don't jump to conclusions.  Study first.  Then jump to conclusions.
There are basically two races in Japan.  I will ignore the Ainu here
because I don't clearly recall how they fit in to this.  However,
the Samurai were taller, fairer-skinned, and spoke a rather
different language than the peasants.  The peasants tended to be
short, fat, with squashed features.  Rather similar in some respects
to the Okinawan peoples.  Anyway, the ancient tradition in Japanese
arts has short, fat, exaggerated features being part of a "humorous,
earthy" character.  While it is permissible to give such a character
noble traits, the main purpose of such characters is to serve as
comic relief.  Similarly, the noble-featured, large-eyed,
light-skinned tall slender figure represents the Samurai type.
While it is permissible and even common to have fatal character
flaws in this type, the hero is always one of this type.  Even in
some of the more free-form comic-strip type manga, some characters
will change appearance somewhat based on their role, being drawn
taller and thinner and more noble when they engage in a pure and
selfless act.

And please don't go on about John Wayne movies until you've seen a
few Kurosawa films, and maybe a Zatoichi or two, then you'll lose
the ethnocentric idea that the romantic, handsome, stalwart hero is
an American invention.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 16:32:35 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan) writes:
>>The "good guys" in Macross seem very western, while the "bad guys"
>>seem (at least in the American translation) to embody much of the
>>culture of feudal Japan. [...]
>
>The "good guys" aren't all Western: I seem to remember an uncle
>(father?)  of Minmei's that was Japanese, and the doctor on Cpt.
>Harlock's ship is, also. (BTW, see how they portray Japanese?
>Short, fat, balding, eyes set to either side of their _nostrils_,
>pug noses, etc.?  What kind of self- image do these people have?)

Hmmm.  I'm afraid I had a different opinion of the Japanese
cartoons.  I haven't seen Macross yet, but have seen the Japanese
language art book (cell book?) from this series and Robotech, and
have caught a couple of episodes of Space Cruiser Yamato.  I always
felt that I was seeing Japanese people in these adventures.  I think
it was the large eyes or the tendency toward compact body structure.
(And beautiful women in short skirts... ahem. excuse me.)  Sure,
there is the occasional stereotypical character that's played for
laughs, but I think you're putting the wrong interpretation on that.
I think they're poking fun at an element in their own culture, sure,
but I can't believe that all (or most) Japanese see themselves in
this stereotype.

Ack, I have a meeting.  Quickly: I am impressed by the stress on
duty and self sacrifice in Robotech and Yamato.  These are part of
Japanese culture, not something imported from the west.

There's more, but I have to go...

Ronald O. Christian
(Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: FRIDAY 09/05/86 15:24:07 PST
From: 7GMADISO  <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF Televison

Ark II: One of my Saturday Morning favorites.  I was SO glad that
there was finally something on Saturday Morning that wasn't
animated.  Athough it was aimed at kids, it didn't talk down to
them.

Space Academy: Yes, Jonathan Harris played Commander Gampu, the head
of the Space Academy.  All of the cadets were there because of some
kind of special ability; Adrienne was a math whiz, for example.

Jason Of Star Command: As far as I was concerned, a BAD ripoff of
SA.  I have to admit that the StarFire spaceships were more
attractive than the Seekers, but it struck me as peculiar that the
SEEKERS were the only ships that were armed, when the StarFires were
supposedly the 'fighter' model.

Lost Saucer: WIth Jim Nabors and Ruth Buzzi, how can you go wrong??
This was frequently hysterical.

Electrawoman and Dynagirl: The *ONLY* show I've ever seen that
successfully out-camps BATMAN.  Also of note: Diedre Hall, who is
now on the soap 'Days Of Our Lives' played Electrawoman.

Web Woman: An infrequently seen segment from the 'Tarzan and the
Super Seven' show which had some incredible space perspective
animation, despite the overall poor animation.

Star Trek: I can't BELIEVE that no one has mentioned the Animated
Star Trek.  Although the overall quality was probably less than the
original (probably because of 1/2 the time for story development),
individual episodes like 'Yesteryear' and 'Slaver Weapon' (which was
adapted from Larry Niven's short story 'The Soft Weapon') were
excellent.

Land Of The Lost:  Occasionally brilliant.  Occasionally dreck.

The Young Sentinels: Animated series about a trio of Guardians who
happen to be the Greek Heroes Hercules, Mercury and Astraea, who
'watch over the human race, helping the good in it to survive and
flourish' with the help of their computer, Sentinel One.

Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors: This is a current one, with some
great computer-assist animation.  It's being marketed to DEATH, but
it's worth checking out.

Thundercats: Same comments as above; I think I like the Thundercats
better, though.

Lidsville, Sigmund & The Sea Monsters, et. al.: Sid & Marty Krofft
were the kings of KidVid for a while with their silly but enjoyable
shows.  Others included the Far Out Space Nuts (with Chuck McCann
and Bob Denver), and WonderBug.  They also did the Electrawoman and
Dynagirl show mentioned above.

The Tomorrow People: A British import, and probably the best show on
my list here.  Excellent production and stories.

This has been a real walk down memory lane for me.  If anyone wants
to discuss any of these or other shows direct, my BITNET address is
7GMADISO at POMONA.  Sorry, but we aren't on any other nets.

George Madison

------------------------------

Date: FRIDAY 09/05/86 15:49:42 PST
From: 7GMADISO  <7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Television

Oh, BTW, I have the themesongs/opening narration for many of the
above shows (and many more) on audio tape, if anyone's interested.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 15:28:44 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF on TV

From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM   (Marina Fournier)
> I also remember a Gerry Anderson Puppetmation show from the early
> '60's (before we moved to Albuquerque in autumn '65), with an
> underwater woman/mermaid who couldn't speak. Her name was Marina,
> and I think it's my first memory of that name. What was the name
> of that series? Was it Fireball XL5? Somehow that doesn't feel
> right.

No, it was STINGRAY. FIREBALL XL-5 was yet another Gerry Anderson
*marion*ation show about a spaceship piloted by Steve Zodiac, with
his faithful companions Venus and Dr. Matthew Matic.

From:   sci!daver       (David Rickel)

> I seem to remember that Tom Corbett was one of three SF soaps
> playing (live action, every day for half an hour.  kind of limits
> your special effects).  Another was Cptn Video and the Video
> Rangers.  Does anyone remember the other one?

SPACE PATROL.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 86 0853-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #287
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 287

Today's Topics:

           Books -  Asimov & Clarke & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                    Vance & Baen Books & Story Search

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Sep 86 13:30:31 EDT
From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
To: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: R. Daneel Olivaw

From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
>From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>>I think that R. Daneel was the one who removed all references to
>>EARTH from the Galactic Library on Trantor. Anybody agree?
>No, no, no.  Go back and re-read *The Robots of Dawn* (or whatever
>it's called) again.  It's R. Giskard (the supposedly inferior robot
>who can read minds and has the capability of independent
>action/thought) who is plotting to guide the future of mankind, not
>R. Daneel, who is really not an unusually impressive robot, aside
>from his physical appearance.  I think Asimov is planning to try
>tying all his future histories together (a la Heinlein or Niven)
>with a direct link between the Susan Calvin stories, the Lije
>Bailey/R. Daneel stories, and the Foundation stories.  Certainly
>such a link is suggested in *Robots of Dawn* and hinted at in
>*Foundation's Edge*.  Personally, I don't think he should bother.
>There's something about having all the corners tucked in, with
>everything tied together and all the details accounted for, which
>is very unappealing to me, and I would hope that Asimov could
>resist the temptation.

Nope.

**Spoiler-Warning**

Read the end of Robots and Empire (I had a friend over who spent the
whole night reading the book.  He figured about ten pages before the
end that he knew what was about to happen, so he stopped reading
because he wanted to eat breakfast.  His guess, needless to say, was
wildly off).

Remember that Giskard teaches Daneel how to read minds, and that the
process isn't all that difficult.  Daneel is inherently a superior
robot to Giskard, but Giskard had a little "accident" at the hands
of Fastolfe's (?) daughter which left him with the ability to read
minds.  Daneel is the only (known) all-purpose, humanoid robot left
by Robots and Empire.

Giskard's capability for independent action is no greater than
Daneel's.  In fact, I believe that it was Daneel who formulated the
Zeroth Law; Giskard couldn't grok it quite well enough to save
himself at the very end.


**Spoiler-Warning off**

The combination of Robots and Empire and Foundation's Edge leaves
some truly spectacular possibilities open.  To quit now would be a
REAL pity.  If the next book is really written all-out, it could be
the best book in the entire meta-series.

Robert

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 17:09:25 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: SF as propaganda

> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate)
> By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at
> various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these
> books with the proper sort of critical attitude.  Back when I was
> in 6th grade and picked up a few Heinleins, I simply did not
> appreciate the casual racism and often sexism that permeates much
> of his writing.  If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I
> would discourage them from reading a lot of the same books,
> because they would be most unlikely to be able to evaluate what
> they were reading and reject what was racist or sexist in the
> writing.  So in that sense there is some purpose for review
> boards, as long as their purpose is not intellectual purity.

I have two problems with this.  First, I consider it a vast and
misleading oversimplification to accuse Heinlein of promoting
"sexism" in his work, and perhaps even more so "racism".  Yes, some
people find Heinlein racist.  But some find _Huckleberry_Finn_
racist, and with just about as much cause.

Second, I am dismayed at the general attitude that seems to be
behind this justification for widespread censorship (watered down,
perhaps, but censorship nevertheless).  "Well, you see, *I* can take
it, *I* can separate propaganda from truth, sexism from liberalism,
*I* can see the Truth.  But we better protect all these poor,
ignorant persons... *they* might not be able to tell sexism from a
hole in the ground."

I find this paternalistic attitude abhorrent, and it seems to me
that it is prelude to some of the worst forms of repression found in
history.  "My slaves wouldn't know what to do if they were free."
"Those poor ignorant Hawaiians... we *must* bring them The Word (and
sugar plantations and VD...)."  And virtually endless other
examples.  The repression is often not obviously or directly a
result of the paternalism, but it nearly always accompanies it.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 00:08:54 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving
Heinlein's support for nuclear war.  These are taken from "Ghastly
Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science fiction
excerpts.

First, from "Pie in the Sky":

   There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of
   ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of
   the Hiroshima treatment.

Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's
Freehold", a post-holocaust novel of which Michael Moorcock wrote in
the critical/political essay "Starship Stormtroopers", "It's not
such a big step ... from *Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's
*Lebensraum*."  Heinlein expounds on the wondrous improvements in
America created by letting man's friend, Mr. Nucleus, have his way
despite all this loose talk about the death of the planet.  You may
ignore the woman; she is merely a device to draw out the hero's
brilliant remarks and finally to agree with him, showing that even
nature's dumbest creature - a woman - must realize the truth of his
statements.

   He frowned.  "Barbara, I'm not as sad over what has happened as
   you are.  It might be be good for us.  I don't mean us six; I
   mean our country."

   She looked startled.  "How?"

   "Well - it's hard to take the long view when you are crouching in
   a shelter and wondering how long you can hold out.  But -
   Barbara, I've worried for years about our country.  It seems to
   me that we have been breeding slaves - and I believe in freedom.
   This war may have turned the tide.  This may be the first war in
   history which kills the stupid rather than the bright and able -
   where it makes any distinction."

   "How do you figure that, Hugh?"

   "Well, wars have always been hardest on the best young men.  This
   time the boys in the service are as safe or safer than civilians.
   And of civilians those who used their heads and made preparations
   stand a far better chance.  Not every case, but on the average,
   and that will improve the breed.  When it's over, things will be
   tough, and that will improve the breed still more.  For years the
   surest way of surviving has been to be utterly worthless and
   breed a lot of worthless kids.  All that will change."

   She nodded thoughtfully.  "That's standard genetics.  But it
   seems cruel."

   "It *is* cruel.  But no government has yet been able to repeal
   natural laws, though they keep trying."

   She shivered in spite of the heat.  "I suppose you're right.  No,
   I *know* you're right."

To the reader who said that he had read this novel many times
without seeing any passage in favor of nuclear war, we award the
1986 Zinc Star for fearless and incisive critical comment.  Well
done, well done, noble sir!

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 03:19:18 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving
>Heinlein's support for nuclear war.

   This is followed by an extended dialogue in which one of
Heinlein's characters notes that certain positive consequences might
ensue from a nuclear war.  Even if you take this as Heinlein's own
opinion, it is vastly different from *supporting* nuclear war.
   I can note that Nazi rule had certain favorable consequences for
1930s Germany (e.g., it certainly get them out of their depression,
and built them into a world power in an extremely short time).  Does
this mean that I *support* Nazi government.  The only person I can
think of who might say that is...

>Michael Moorcock [,who] wrote in the critical/political essay
>"Starship Stormtroopers", "It's not such a big step ... from
>*Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's *Lebensraum*."

   This seems a far greater overstatement of the truth than anything
Heinlein might have said.  Can we say the same for histories of the
Third Reich, if they describe the increase in economic growth and
stability in the late 1930s?

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Sep 86 10:46:46 cet
From: ESG7%DFVLROP1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Revised table on the writings of Jack Vance

             The Science Fiction Writings of Jack Vance
                                 by
                         Gary A. Allen, Jr.

     Several weeks ago I posted a table on the works of Jack Vance
and included some ratings.  This table had omissions which were
pointed out by the readers of SF-LOVERS.  This new table represents
a (hopefully) complete listing of Vance's Science Fiction writings.
Vance has also written mystery novels but these are not listed.

    _TITLE             _DATE_PUBLISHED _RATING (0-10, 10 = best)
                                                (* = Not rated)

The Five Gold Bands           1953        3
To Live Forever               1956        7
The Languages of Pao          1957        8
Slaves of the Klau            1953        *
The Dragon Masters            1963        9
Future Tense                  1964        *
The Houses of Iszim           1964        8
Son of the Tree               1964        7
Monsters in Orbit             1965        *
Space Opera                   1965        5
The Blue World                1966        9
The Brains of Earth           1966        *
The Complete Magnus Ridolph   1966        4
Eight Fantasms and Magics     1969        *
Emphyrio                      1970        9
Vandals of the Void           1970        *
The Gray Prince               1974        5
Galactic Effectuator          1976        6
Maske: Thaery                 1976        8
Best of Jack Vance            1976        *
Green Magic                   1979        *
The Last Castle               1980        10

                         Big Planet Series

Big Planet                    1952        *
Show Boat World               1975        9

                         The Alastor Series

Trullion: Alastor 2262        1973        8
Marune: Alastor 933           1975        7
Wyst: Alastor 1716            1978        6

                        The Durdane Trilogy

The Faceless Man (The Anome)  1973        9
The Brave Free Men            1973        7
The Asutra                    1974        7

                      The Demon Prince Series

Star King                     1964        8
The Killing Machine           1964        8
The Palace of Love            1967        6
The Face                      1979        8
The Book of Dreams            1981        7

              The Tschai (Planet of Adventure) Series

City of the Chasch            1968        9
Servants of the Wankh         1969        8
The Dirdir                    1969        10
The Pnume                     1970        9

                       The Dying Earth Series

The Dying Earth               1950        9
The Eyes of the Overworld     1966        10
Cugel's Saga                  1983        9
Rhialto the Marvellous        1984        10

                        The Lyonesse Series

Lyonesse I: Suldren's Garden  1983        0
Lyonesse II: The Green Pearl  1985        *

On the rating system used a 6 or better is recommended.

Works with a 10 either received a Hugo/Nebula or should have.  ALL
of Jack Vance's works including _Lyonesse_ are better than 99.9% of
what one would typically find for sale as Science Fiction.

      Short Story Collections (none of which that I have read)

Dust of Far Suns (DAW paperback)
The Narrow Land (DAW paperback)
The World Between and Other Stories (Ace paperback)
The Worlds of Jack Vance (Ace paperback)
Nopalgarth (DAW paperback)
Green Magic (Underwood-Miller)
The Augmented Agent (Underwood-Miller)
The Dark Side of the Moon (Underwood-Miller)
Lost Moons (Underwood-Miller)

                      Prizes Won by Jack Vance

1958    nominated for the Hugo        _The_Miracle-Workers
1962    BEST NOVELLA Hugo             _The_Dragon_Masters
1966    BEST NOVELLA Hugo and Nebula  _The_Last_Castle
1973    nominated for the Nebula      _Rumfuddle
1974    nominated for the Hugo        _Assault_on_a_City
1985    nominated for the Nebula      _Rhialto_the_Marvellous

"The Moon Moth" was placed in the _SF_Hall_of_Fames, Vol 1, by SFWA.

First edition hardbound books printed on acid free paper with high
quality bindings which are authored by Jack Vance can be purchased
from the following publisher:

   Underwood-Miller
   651 Chestnut Street
   Columbia, PA 17512-1233

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 1986 19:01:18 PDT
Subject: Baen Book Club Update
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

I talked to several people at Worldcon and after about this. The
situation may or may not be resolved at this point.

Betsy Mitchell, a Baen editor, told me and at least one Baen author
that the current deal on the book club is that it has around 150-200
members, with about 20 from California.  The club will cut off
membership at 250.  Also, the discount has been lowered from 50% to,
I believe, 30%, and will eventually be lowered to 20% after about a
year (I don't claim accuracy on the numbers, except for the 250 and
the 20, but this is the general gist of it).

On the other hand, Sherry Gotlieb, owner of the Change of Hobbit,
has told me that she plans to continue her boycott since neither she
nor her distributor has received any official written notice of this
change in policy.

There are also problems with the book club notices being undated,
and books could conceivably be available with the notice for several
years.  There was a rumor that some booksellers were requesting that
all such ads be hand stamped with a "no longer available" notice. It
also is rumored that a lot of this has turned into a personality
clash among several people.

So the book club may or may not be a past issue, but at least one
store is still boycotting Baen.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  7 Sep 1986 21:37-EDT
From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Subject: Story Searches

A friend of mine has been searching for the following book for
years, and now turns to the assembled might of the SFL collective
intelligence to help him.

The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a
force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the
galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965, and the author's name or
psuedonym is probably early in the alphabet. He read it first in
hardcover.

Some specific scenes: A large ship with a very large model of the
galaxy that the hero could light up is described in great detail.
There are many space battles with englobments and such. At one
point, our hero impresses a bunch of locals on a planet by riding
down his spaceship ramp upon a horse. It is Not "Tarrano the
Conquerer", or "The Hour of the Hoard", or anything by Heinlein,
Clarke, Asimov, Anderson, Clement, Chandler, or Cambell.

He is also looking for an short stories in which Leonardi di Vinci
figures.

Replies to me directly...

James Turner
ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
UUCP: {decvax|sri-unix|ima|linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn
MAIL  329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 86 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #288
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 288

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Sep 1986 10:08:24-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS (Why didn't Ripley nuke the ship?)

From: SHADOW%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Astronomy Undergraduate)
> What this boils down to is this: Ripley did not nuke the original
> site because 1) She was too occupied with saving her own skin, and
> 2) She did not expect that the company would be so idiotic as to
> set a colony up on that planet once they had seen her report.

I think you're confused here. The question was why didn't she nuke
the derelict in the *sequel*, not the original film.

Possible answers are:
   (1) Who's to say that she didn't, just because we didn't see it?
   (2) She didn't have the knowledge or authority to use the nukes
       on the Sulaco. Perhaps even Bishop and Hicks didn't know,
       either. After all, Gorman was still alive when they made the
       suggestion in the first place. He might have been the one to
       do it.

And besides, as regards the first film, the Nostromo was a
commercial ship, not a military one. Why assume that she had any
tactical or strategic nukes at all? It was the engines that
exploded, not nuclear weapons.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 86 14:38:21 GMT
From: watdragon!jsgray@caip.rutgers.edu (Jan Gray)
Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
> From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
>> ...Ripley dumped the queen into space. We know from previous
>> experience that they can survive in space....
>
>We do? In the first film, the Alien doesn't survive in space
>much longer (that we know of) than a human being can. It was
>only a few minutes between the time that Ripley zapped it
>out the shuttle's airlock and when she burned it with the
>engines.

We do.  The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and
survived the vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship.

Jan Gray
jsgray@watdragon
University of Waterloo
519-885-1211 x3870

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 05:19:18 GMT
From: cec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: ALIENS

wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>       I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston.
>There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut
>out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own.
>I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien ship
>were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew find
>the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where the
>dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon looked
>much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut off the
>beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did anyone else
>recall this version? Or was it another movie?

   Someone else cited this version when asserting (during discussion
of the beacon a few weeks back) that the _Nostromo_ people turned
off the beacon.  Oddly, that scene didn't even make it to the
novelization, unlike others that were cut from the final screen
version.

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
[a lot of good stuff, to which I want to add just a couple of things:]
>Side note: Spent magazines are probably disposable. Saves time in
>combat, and since caseless ammo can't be stuffed into the magazine
>by hand would probably be cheaper than transporting a loading
>machine on the ship.

   In the novelization, when Hicks is teaching Ripley about the
pulse-rifle, he says when changing magazines: "Usually we're
required to recover the used ones: they're expensive.  I wouldn't
worry about following regs just now."

>Why Ripley uses a power-loader in her battle with the Alien-Queen:
>It's the only thing she can get her hands on. Remember, the Sulaco
>is an interstellar troopship, not a battlecraft. I would not expect
>to find personal small arms anywhere but on board the landing
>craft. Even if there were one or more small-arms lockers in the
>ship itself:
> 1. Would there be one close to the hangar deck? Time is critical.
> 2. Would Ripley know where it is?
> 3. Would she be authorized to open it -- have the
>    key/combination/access code required? I don't think so. I think
>    only the Lieutenant, the Sergeant, Bishop, Hicks and Vasquez
>    would be so authorized.
>So, the only guns available to Ripley are on board the lander, and
>the Queen is in the way. Ripley is forced to improvise with the
>power-loader.

   I was surprised you missed this, since you got it with respect to
the other movie: if she did get a pulse-rifle and blow Regina away,
her blood would trash the ship's hull and the hyperdrive circuitry
in it, not to mention exposing the bay to vacuum in a way that can't
be conveniently closed, like the airlock.

>Incredibly stupid blunder: Ripley goes into the Alien nest WITHOUT
>SPARE MAGAZINES FOR THE M-41A! NO-body that stupid could live to
>adulthood.

   I was going to say that she couldn't because there weren't any on
the lander, that she was still limited to the ammo they'd saved from
the APC.  I realized that was wrong, though, when I remembered that
the clip she did have in the gun read full at first, while the four
clips they saved from the wreck were only half full.  So yes, the
lander did have ammo that she could grab--that's probably where the
flares and grenades came from, too.  Still, it's possible to make a
lot of little nitpicks like this--for example, I wondered why she
didn't take a motion sensor down with her, so she would know exactly
where the bugs were instead of wasting time carefully napalming
around every corner?  Why did she chuck the whole bandolier of
grenades into the fire, when if she'd used them a little more
sparingly she could have blown Regina up when she was coming up in
the other lift?  But considering the amount of time Ripley had to
plan, and the amount of hardware she had already loaded herself down
with, I would really classify these as minor nitpicks rather than
incredibly stupid blunders.

>Alien origin: I agree with the posters who think Aliens are
>genetically engineered weapons. [etc.]

   Thank you.  The question remains, though, who engineered them?
According to the novelization of the first movie, the beacon's
message indicated that the ship in which the eggs were found was not
carrying them, but rather discovered the aliens already on LV-426.
(Though Ripley seems sure, when being grilled by Company brass, that
the bugs aren't indigenous to that planet.  Lots of little
inconsistencies between the two novels, though the movies themselves
are quite compatible.)  There's the potential for a sequel or two
without stagnating, perhaps: we discover the species that designed
the bugs, and try to treat with them--or perhaps find that they are
being overrun by their own creation, or . . .

svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes:
>One minor nag, I don't remember anything being said about the
>weapons ammo other than it being 10mm caseless. Was any mention
>made of it being incendiary or explosive? It sure seemed to do some
>significant damage for a little-bitty 0.393" slug.

   Yes, the pulse-rifle shells were explosive.  Notice that the
shotgun was used when actually in an alien mouth, and that it took
multiple shots from Vasquez' and Gorman's handguns to do much more
than tickle the aliens.

pH

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 86 21:34:31 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes:
>One minor nag, I don't remember anything being said about the
>weapons ammo other than it being 10mm caseless. Was any mention
>made of it being incendiary or explosive? It sure seemed to do some
>significant damage for a little-bitty 0.393" slug. (Yes I know all
>about the .50 cal. machine gun the U.S. uses, but I defy any normal
>human to heft one of those and let it rip from the hip!)

And this is only a minor quibble (I guess I'm going to have to see
the movie,) but it's pretty much SOP for someone to fire the
conventional machine gun from the hip.  I *think* the USA has gone
over to 9mm to fit with NATO standard, but the difference is small.

In fact, ten years ago, it was standard procedure as a demo in basic
training to fire a machine gun from the shoulder, from the hip, and
holding the weapon on a particularly sensitive area of the (male at
least) anatomy that lies between navel and knees.  This was supposed
to remind you that the recoil was nothing to be worried about.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 20:08:34 GMT
From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>And this is only a minor quibble (I guess I'm going to have to see
>the movie,) but it's pretty much SOP for someone to fire the
>conventional machine gun from the hip.  I *think* the USA has gone
>over to 9mm to fit with NATO standard, but the difference is small.
>
>In fact, ten years ago, it was standard procedure as a demo in
>basic training to fire a machine gun from the shoulder, from the
>hip, and holding the weapon on a particularly sensitive area of the
>(male at least) anatomy that lies between navel and knees.  This
>was supposed to remind you that the recoil was nothing to be
>worried about.

The comments about recoil could apply for an M-16, (.223), but
definitely *not* for an M-60, or a Thompson (.308 NATO and .45ACP
respectively). I certainly wouldn't want to be the one holding the
butt of either of the last two against my groin and pulling the
trigger. The recoil of either a .308 or a .45 is not enormous, and
is pretty easily handled, but it isn't as non-existent as I would
want it to be to try the above exercise! My comment was on the
apparent in- consistency, (or my lack of understanding) regarding
the use and effects of what appeared to be a medium-power small arm.

The US has not switched to 9mm except for the new sidearm (as you
mentioned, this is for NATO compatability). I do not know of any
full-auto weapons in the *current* US arsenal that are 9mm. Most of
the new ones are 5.56mm (.223 cal.).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 16:06:55 GMT
From: yetti!oz@caip.rutgers.edu (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY

jsgray@watdragon.UUCP (Jan Gray) writes:
>We do.  The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and
>survived the vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship.

Hmm. Maybe not. In my second viewing, I noticed that the queen was
actually hiding *inside* the landing leg cavity.  And also, if we
can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a
several-ton-heavy queen hanging off Ripley's leg for several seconds
under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart, than we can
assume that the landing feet cavities are not exposed to vacuum,
thus queen survives.

oz
Usenet: [decvax|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz
Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti].BITNET
Phonet: [416] 736-5053 x 3976

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 19:22:08 GMT
From: umcp-cs!tewok@caip.rutgers.edu (Uncle Wayne)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes:
>A couple of other comments. Whoever wrote the dialog either was a
>veteran of the military, or had close contact with someone who was.
>The dialog of the enlisted people rang very true. My nomination for
>best supporting character would be the Hispanic weapons specialist
>(Vasquez? I never remember her name.)  She was definitely a person
>who had found their niche in life, and was very satisfied with it.
>The woman made you believe that she spent her life in search of
>targets. The scene where she pulled out spare ammo mags for her and
>her buddy was great. Not to mention the sheer ecstasy on her face
>when she finally got a chance to open up on something ("Rock and
>roll!...").

Several weeks ago, U.S.A. Today had an interview with Vasquez
(whatever her name is).  I didn't read it, but I was told she went
in for her audition thinking it was a movie about illegal
immigration.  In a way, I guess you could say it was :-) I agree
with Stephen's nomination.  I thought she was a really great
character and I was sorry to see her killed off.

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok
(301)454-7690

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 00:01:30 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (T Cox)
Subject: In ALIENS, Bishop as the Company rat

When watching AlienS, I and my date both immediately assumed that
Bishop had, while away from the platform w/ the injured Marine,
impregnated said Marine w/ an Alien.  As my date put it, "He was out
of our sight.  That's enough."

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>One more reason for not thinking Bishop was a Company rat:
>
>Dramatically, it's wrong. The character was set up to be the object
>of Ripley's prejudice. She wanted nothing to do with him because he
>was an android and she'd been screwed over royally by an android
>previously. Bishop was obviously hurt by her reaction, and very
>naively, with a childlike innocence, couldn't understand why she
>distrusted him.

An excellent point, but I disagree.  I think it would be
dramatically more powerful to have Bishop be a nice guy with a
"dramatic flaw" -- in the form of company counterprogramming.  He's
caught between wanting to stand by his fellows and having to try to
bring back an Alien.  Perhaps he's a backup to the Yuppie From Hell,
who's the primary person charged w/ bringing one back.  [Or perhaps
I'm full of cornflakes on this one.]

>Finally, Ripley was put in a position where she *had* to trust him,
>had to trust that he'd not leave her behind to get killed when the
>atmosphere processor exploded. OK, so she comes back out and finds
>the ship gone; she realizes that again she's been screwed over.
>Certainly, that scene was done for reasons of suspense rather than
>logic, but it made us think for a while that maybe Bishop *was* a
>rat after all. But then, he reappears with the ship and saves her.
>He seems genuinely happy when she tells him he "did good".

Or else he has discharged his counterprogramming and can now go back
to fulfill his original programming of being a good Marine.

> [stuff deleted] And last, but not least, it's nothing but pure
>bigotry. Just because one android proved to be a rat, does that
>mean *all* androids have to be suspect, for no other reason than
>that they're androids?

This is an excellent point.  While I like to think that mine is
somehow more elegant, I think JMB's reading is more likely to be
'true' [we'll see w/ the sequel, I hope] simply because it's less,
shall I say, convoluted.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 19:31:40 GMT
From: voder!kevin@caip.rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY

oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes:
>Hmm. Maybe not. In my second viewing, I noticed that the queen was
>actually hiding *inside* the landing leg cavity.  And also, if we
>can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a
>several-ton-heavy queen hanging off ripley's leg for several
>seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart, than
>we can assume that the landing feet cavities are not exposed to
>vacuum, thus queen survives.

   Another possibility is that due to the exoskeleton construction
of the aliens that they may be able to pull or tighten their
exterior together and efectively seal all joints.  Not enough to
survive in a vacuum indefinitely (which means the alien Ripley
ejected in the first movie isn't still floating around) but enough
to make the trip to the shuttle.

Kevin Thompson
{ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 86 0958-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #289
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 289

Today's Topics:

      Television - The Champions (2 msgs) & It's About Time &
              I Dream of Jeannie (3 msgs) & Star Maidens &
              Star Trek & Superman & Captain Video &
              Doctor Who (3 msgs) & Japanese Animation (2 msgs) &
              More Sf TV (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 13:55:14 GMT
From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas)
Subject: The Champions

Someone was asking a while back about a series called The Champions.
This was about two men and a woman who had been given enhanced
powers after an air crash in the Himalayas. The actress's name was
Alexandra Bastidot (sp?) but I can't remember the actors', although
they were quite well known. The organisation they worked for was
called Nemesis and was based in Geneva, hence the view of Lake
Geneva and its fountain at the beginning of the show. Hope this
answers a few questions.

Tony Thomas
adt@ukc.ac.uk
University of Kent,
Canterbury, Kent, England.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 12:01:02 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: The Champions TV series

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>The Champions, a British SF.  They had super strength and a sort
>>of telepathy and precognition.  I think it only lasted one season.
>>The show started with a shot of this huge fountain.  Why, I don't
>>know.
>
>I seem to recall the complement being: one British man, one British
>woman, and one American man.  Weren't there also other series that
>had the formula of international and gender mixes?
>
>Now, for a blind guess: did Annette Andre play the woman?

The woman was played by Alexandra Basteado (sp?). I think the
British actor's name was William Gaunt, but I can't remember the
other guy's name. I seem to remember more than one series worth of
episodes, but I'm not sure on that either

Some episodes were repeated on British ITV earlier this year, which
is how I remember this - I was only about 7 when the show was first
shown!!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 12:55 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF TV shows

From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@labs-b.bbn.com>
>>Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty
>>sure I never watched it.  The opening was animated, and there was a
>>gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening is:
>>
>>   It's about time
>>   It's about space
>>   It's about men from the human race
>
>The lyrics are from the title tune for IT'S ABOUT TIME, but my own
>dim recollection is that the third line is

It's about two men in the craziest place.

From my own memory:

It's about time.
It's about space.
It's about two men in the strangest place.

It's about time.
It's about flight.
Traveling faster than the speed of light.

Here is their tale
Of the great crew
As through the barrier of time they flew.

Past the fighting Minuteman,
Past the armored knight,
Past the Roman warrior
To this ancient site.

It's about caves.
Cavemen too.
About a time when the Earth was new.

Wait'll they see
What's in sight.
Is it good luck or is it Good Night?

It's about two astronauts.
It's about their fate.
It's about a woman and her prehistoric mate.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 86 21:51:53 GMT
From: chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

barton@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>Barbara Eden was Jeannie...Larry Hagman (J.R. Ewing of Dallas fame)
>was her master.

I seem to remember there being _two_ actors who played the role of
the Air Force officer (astronaut) who was Jeannie's master.  One was
indeed Larry Hagman.  Can anyone remember who the other was?  Or
what the character's name was?

Brent Chapman
chapman@cory.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!cory!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 17:07:00 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Brent Chapman) writes:
>barton@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>>Barbara Eden was Jeannie...Larry Hagman (J.R. Ewing of Dallas
>>fame) was her master.
>I seem to remember there being _two_ actors who played the role of
>the Air Force officer (astronaut) who was Jeannie's master.  One
>was indeed Larry Hagman.  Can anyone remember who the other was?
>Or what the character's name was?

You're mistaken.  Despite obvious desires to the contrary, Bill
Daily (also seen on Bob Newhart Show) was NOT her master.

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 13:04:09 GMT
From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

Wayne Rogers (Trapper John of TV's M*A*S*H) played Col. Nelson in a
recent TV Movie.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Sep 86 12:53:54-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: SF on TV

When I was in Korea in 1978 (courtesy of the U.S. Army) there was
one english-speaking station (AFKN). AFKN ran a British-made SF
television series that was sooooo bad I'm not surprised that it
hasn't been seen here.  This series was called _STAR_MAIDENS_.  The
plot was that there was another planet behind Neptune (so you
couldn't see it from Earth) and this planet was ruled by women
(amazon fantasy).  Two men, scrubbing the floor, plan to escape to
Earth.
  Man 1: "On Earth, men are the rulers."
  Man 2: "That can't be right. That would be pure heaven."
So they escape to Earth and land in a small pond in rural England.
Their "Mistress" is ordered to retrieve these men so she and several
enforcer types land in England and go to the local authorities.  One
funny scene has the "Mistress" walking through a small English town
in a semi-diaphanous (if that's a good description) outfit on a
rather cool day with her enforcers and none of the locals pay any
attention to her (must be a common occurence).

Now I realize that it sounds like I'm making this up but it's true.
The "Mistress" was played by Judy Geeson who has had some very minor
success in UK television and films.

Walter Chapman

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Sep 86 10:33:07 -0200
From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: century of StarTrek

>Century: In "Space Seed" Kahn (No flames, please, folks, I can
>never remember where the "h" goes and whereever I decide to put it
>is guaranteed to be wrong.) is clearly identified as being from the
>1990s, and Kirk tells him he's been sleeping for 2 centuries.  This
>puts ST in the 22nd century.  Yet, in "Squire of Gothos" they say
>they're 900 light years from Earth and Trelane has been observing
>the Earth of 900 years ago.  ("...if someone had a telescope
>powerful enough..."  And let's ignore the science of that, shall
>we?)  Yet, Trelane knows about Napoleon.  This puts ST in the 27th
>Century.

Some more evidence for the 22nd-century theory: in "Tomorrow is
Yesterday", when they go back to the 1960s, and Kirk is captured by
the guards in that army base and tells them the truth about how he
got in there ("I just popped out of thin air"), one of them yells at
him: "We'll send you to jail for the next 200 years", and he then
murmurs: "that should be about enough".

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:           ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 18:58:32 GMT
From: calmasd!jnp@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SUPERMAN the TV series

> Brown students claim that the Industrial National Bank (now Fleet
> N.B.)  building is either the DAILY PLANET or the tall building he
> leaps over in a single bound. Does anyone out there know of any
> way I can check this?

Superman jumpes over The Los Angeles County court building which was
also used for exterior shots of the DAILY PLANET.

John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 14:25 MST
From: Roger Mann <RMann@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV

Anyone remember Captain Video from the early 50's ? It had two space
cadets, the Captain, the evil Dr. Pauley (heh, heh, heh) and a
serialized Western (!) In those days EVERYTHING on TV was a western.
The gimmick was that there would be a 5-10 minute segment dealing
with Captain Video and then he would start to monitor the "progress"
of his agent on earth who would be some 30's cowboy in the middle of
some totally unrelated story. I would patiently wait through the
horse opera for the resumption of the SF portion.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 09:31:14 EDT (Monday)
Subject: Doctor Who - Rochester
From: Rob Westfall<Westfall.Henr@Xerox.COM>

WhoNews:  Rochester, NY

WXXI, Channel 21 has the ENTIRE Dr. Who Collection.  According to
the last months's WXXI program guide, they will complete the
broadcast with the Collin Baker programs and then start shows from
the BEGINNING.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 13:02:20 GMT
From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who Roadshow

From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
> In the NY Times a week back I saw an article about a travelling
> Dr.  Who exhibit (a semi-trailer full of props, costumes, etc.)
> that had recently been in the NY area-- it sounded like great fun.
> The article mentioned that the exhibit was travelling around the
> U.S.  Anyone seen this, or have any information on their
> itinerary?  Thanks.

I'm not sure that this is what you're looking for but I got this in
the mail and I'll reproduce it here: (shortened)

The British American Television Society in association with Ettinger
Brothers and Master Productions is proud to present:

THE JON PERTWEE EAST COAST TOUR

starring Jon Pertwee (Dr. Who #3 and Worzel Gummidge) and featuring
other guests from Doctor Who, videos, panels, slide shows, costume
contests, CABERETS and much more!

Saturday, October 18    Trenton, New Jersey
War Memorial Auditoriun

Sunday, October 19      Baltimore, Maryland
Baltimore Convention Center

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, October 24, 25, 26
New York City: 2 West 64th Street (a block from Lincoln Center)
INFINICON: Special Guests- George Takai (Star Trek's Mr. Sulu),
and Science Fiction Author Isaac Asimov

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, October 31, November 1, 2
Boston, Massachusetts

Saturday, November 8    Albany, New York
Hilton Hotel

Sunday, November 9      Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Hilton Hotel

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, November 14, 15, 16
Nashville, Tennessee: War Memorial Auditorium and the
Nashville Hyatt Regency Hotel
Special Guest: James Doohan

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, November 21, 22, 23
New Orleans, Louisiana: Howard Johnson Hotel
Special Guest: James Doohan

Also:  THANKSGIVING DAY WITH JON PERTWEE AT WALT DISNEY WORLD
INCLUDING THREE DAY PASS TO MAGIC KINGDOM AND EPCOT CENTER
Spend Thanksgiving Day touring the park with Jon Pertwee then
join him and others for a traditional Thanksgiving Day Dinner.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, November 28, 29, 30
Tampa, Florida: Tampa Theatre

FOR MORE INFORMATION CALL (516) 744 5860

------------------------------

From: carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Who Roadshow
Date: 8 Sep 86 21:05:31 GMT

The Dr. Who Experience is scheduled to be in Syracuse from Sept.
13-17 at a local mall. It is being sponsored by the local PBS
affiliate. There is also to be a single showing of "The 5 Doctors"
but by the time I called all 300 seats were gone. I will check it
out this weekend and report back to the net what I find.

Paul Carnell.
DEC Software Services, Syracuse, NY
UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!usrcv1.dec.com!carnellp
APRA: carnellp%usrcv1.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 86 14:41:56 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re:...Macross allegory

From:   nike!kaufman
> ...(BTW, see how they portray Japanese?  Short, fat, balding, eyes
> set to either side of their _nostrils_, pug noses, etc.?  What
> kind of self- image do these people have?)

Yeah, I always wondered about that myself, ever since I first saw
STAR BLAZERS and noticed that the only obvious Oriental in the
"cast" fit the rather racist image of the "little yellow monkey". I
thought this was exceedingly bizarre. If the cartoon hadn't been
produced by Japanese, I would've been quite offended.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 07:41:11 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

kaufman@nike.uucp (Bill Kaufman) writes:
> Ever see one of those karate movies on Saturday/Sunday afternoon
> TV?  Americans are always brave, tough, (tho' sometimes not too
> bright), and always victorious?  ...

I remember one karate movie that had an american villain.  Big,
strong, almost indestructible.  Our hero finally managed to do him
in by electrocuting him (shades of King Kong vs Godzilla).  Prior to
this, he had been hit over the head with a pipe, had a brick wall
 knocked onto him, etc.  He also absorbed a considerable number of
punches, kicks, elbows, head butts, etc.  Kind of like the chinese
bodyguard in "Fistful of Yen", but tougher.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 86 22:02:57 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: OLD SF-TV

>The more sophisticated (??) was called "Space Angel", and featured
>that strange, cheapo animation technique where characters' mouths
>move (it looked like they had filmed an actor's mouth, then merged
>that with the non-moving cartoon) and occasionally large objects
>moved.  (This was also used for an adventure series of the time
>called "Clutch Cargo").

Both "Space Angel" and "Clutch Cargo" appeared on a kiddie TV show
in Chicago (on WGN) called "The Garfield Goose Show".  While neither
one had great animation, "Clutch Cargo" was *much* worse.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 13:21:35 GMT
From: hjuxa!jjf@caip.rutgers.edu (FRANEY)
Subject: RE: TV SF

   Here are two TV shows that I have yet to see mentioned during
this discussion.

   UFO - a british futuristic special service team is contracted to
investigate UFO visits and defend the Earth if necessary.  I
remember the leader to be a tall blond guy.  His car looked like a
deLorean, with the doors that open upwards.  All the UFO's looked
the same and made the same sounds.  The team was highly secretive
and worked behind a front of some kind.  In the beginning of each
show, you would see the boss come into his office and push a button.
You could tell his office was actually a huge elevator because the
picture behind his desk changed from a landscape, to cement to a
television screen (sketchy memory there).  Also, the installation
they operated on the moon had women personel with silver clothes and
beautiful silver hair.  Also, the show never ever showed the actual
alien beings, except once.  I really miss this show.

   Land of the Giants - the only reason I remember this show is
beacause I used to have a 'Land of the Giants' lunchbox.  Anyway, an
group of space travellers crash land on a planet inhabited by humans
the size of King Kong.  In order to survive, the group gets supplies
from the giants stores, and risk being caught.  The giants never
liked the little people.  But once a girl giant was kind to the
travellers.  I never found out if they made it home.

John J. Franey

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Sep 86 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #290
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 290

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs) &
                      Tickets to the Moon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Sep 86 19:04:42 EDT
From: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Michael Johnson)
Subject: Re: Time travel/Laws of Conservation

Wayne Throop states:
>Take an object (located at event a) and send it back in time (event
>b).  Total mass for the universe decreases in that instant, and is
>replaced by some energy.  When the object arrives in the past
>(event c), total mass of the universe *increased*, so energy is
>consumed.

Is this why the Delorean in "Back to the Future" leaves flaming tire
tracks behind and yet comes out the other "end" covered with ice?
Wonder if the writers actually thought of this or whether it was
just a lucky stab?

There is one problem with this, and that is the question of where
does the energy come from/go to that is displacing/being displaced
by the mass?  It would seem that in order to maintain conservation
of mass/energy completely, there would have to be a two-way
exchange, so that in fact if something gets sent through time, an
equivalent mass or energy must be sent the other way. This appeals
to my sense of symmetry. I think there are writers who have dealt
with this somewhat, in stories where they could snatch something
from the past but had to leave an object of the same mass from the
place that they took the object (usually a person), or some other
such scheme.

I haven't studied enough relativistic physics to be real solid on
this, but it seems to me that equations for time travel might tie in
pretty closely with the mass/energy relationship and the inability
to exceed the speed of light. We know that energy can at least reach
the speed of light. We have evidence that there are "objects" that
can exceed the speed of light. We also know that nothing in our
universe that has mass can quite reach the speed of light. Others
have said that time travel won't work for the same reasons we cannot
reach the speed of light. Perhaps the ticket is to only send energy
through time, perhaps doing mass/energy<-->energy/mass conversions
on both ends. Any one got a spare Transporter beam around?

michael@maine.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 14:06:30 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: time travel themes

   Robert Firth lists three categories of time travel stories. I'd
note at least one more category (possibly a super-category?): You
can't change the past because: space-time won't take the strain ("A
Gun for Dinosaur", de Camp); your past is yours alone ("The Men Who
Murdered Mohammed", Bester); your time-machine is really a
fantasizer ("Flight of the Horse", Niven); you'll foul things up so
as to prevent time travel's invention (TIME AND AGAIN, Brunner);
etc.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 21:02:30 GMT
From: jhardest @ Wheeler-EMH
Subject: RE: A Sane man approach to time travel

PFFFFFT to the person who said time travel is impossible because it
is a tangible thing.... may I come to your house yesterday and
rearrange your next week !!!

Suppose you are right in some respect... time once, happened really
can not be changed. if we went back in time suppose we would go as
ghosts.....

oblique-- maybe the author of the Amityville goes back in time to
create his own story... oblique enough for you

and traveling in time is really not a paradox... you really only
need one.

and she must be attractive

I think I go to next week and wait for you guys to catch up...

john hardesty
jhardest@ wheeler-emh.arpa

------------------------------

From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Re: Time Travel/Laws of Conservation
Date: 8 Sep 86 23:21:50 GMT

michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>Wayne Throop states:
>>Take an object (located at event a) and send it back in time (event
>>b).  Total mass for the universe decreases in that instant, and is
>>replaced by some energy.  When the object arrives in the past (event
>>c), total mass of the universe *increased*, so energy is consumed.
>
>Is this why the Delorean in "Back to the Future" leaves flaming
>tire tracks behind and yet comes out the other "end" covered with
>ice? Wonder if the writers actually thought of this or whether it
>was just a lucky stab?

I don't want to get into the conservation of energy thing, but
recall that the Delorean came out covered with ice *every* time it
travelled through time, not only when going into the past or the
future.

Recall: The dog (Einstein?) is being sent one minute forward.
        Flaming tracks around the other actors in the parking lot,
        and ice cold car on rearrival.

        First trip backward to 1955.  Car leaves flaming tracks into
        the photo box, and terrorist van slams into same building.
        Car is cold when crashing into barn (steam evident in movie,
        I believe, as it was after the first trip).

        Trip forward to 1985.  Car leaves flaming tracks up street,
        emerges ice cold (with a nonfunctional engine, yet) in 1985.

In every case, it left hot and came out cold.  More likely, the
writer was concerned with the amount of energy required to pop the
car around in time.  The car did not appear to be cold when
returning from the future with a "Mr. Fusion" supplying plenty of
power (though I have no idea how long the car had been back), even
though it appeared to have an excess of power when flying forward.
It could be that the car just barely had the power to make the jump
when powered by fission.

On a lighter side, did anyone else notice that Doc had on velcro
shoes back in 1955?  This is quite evident when he is hanging from
the clock tower.  I don't know when velcro came out, but I am pretty
sure that shoes with them weren't around in 1955.  They looked too
well made to be a Doc creation, and he didn't appear to care about
novelty in clothes (except of course when coming back from the
future).  Or were they a gift from the future brought back in a
future movie?

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1986 10:35:17-EDT
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Time travel loops

Dave Tallman (dspo!tallman@lanl.arpa) had a comment on my letter on
the Miller story in SFL#273.  Further thoughts follow:

>>Except, the knife brought back was
>>whole, while the one in the museum had a notch cut out to try
>>to analyze the material.
>
>Any object that appears in a time loop must somehow be self-
>regenerating, or it would wear out from sheer attrition of
>handling.  That is what would eventually happen to the pistol
>also, loaded or not.

Not necessarily so.  A true loop in time would in fact only occur
once, with absolutely no changes from one "cycle" to the next.  If
there were changes, that would imply that there was a starting
condition, outside of the loop.  Also, if there are changes, the
changes would be bound to be cumulative, meaning that the loop would
"decay" and eventually a condition would arise which would prevent
the loop from continuing, cancelling it out, i.e. the pistol running
out of ammo or wearing out.  You can't just assume it is self
regenerating as that would violate the conservation laws, which we
are just extending over the 4-dimensional continuum.  With the knife
in Miller's story, since it was an unknown, unanalyzable, metal, it
is possible that it could have regenerated over the course of the
300 odd years it was sitting in the museum.  That is one advantage
of working with unknown materials.

Also thanks to wall@decwrl.DEC.COM for pointing out that _The_
Time_Machined_Saga_ was by Harry Harrison, not Keith Laumer.

Harold Wyzansky (wyzansky@nadc.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 12:14:09 GMT
From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Time Travel/Laws of Conservation

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
> On a lighter side, did anyone else notice that Doc had on velcro
> shoes back in 1955?  This is quite evident when he is hanging from
> the clock tower.  I don't know when velcro came out, but I am
> pretty sure that shoes with them weren't around in 1955.  They
> looked too well made to be a Doc creation, and he didn't appear to
> care about novelty in clothes (except of course when coming back
> from the future).  Or were they a gift from the future brought
> back in a future movie?

        The shoes probably came from the suitcase that Doc put in
the car before the Libyans showed up. Doc in 1955 then probably saw
the shoes and tried them on when they looked like they would fit.
This suitcase also yielded the hairdryer that kept appearing and
disappearing from Marty's belt in the scene where he played Darth
Vader in George's bedroom.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 86 09:11:28 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Time Travel / Laws of conservation

From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
>If the resulting energy can be controlled and is not required for
>the time-travel itself, this might solve both our energy AND
>garbage problems.
>
>Sending back garbage to past times would not pollute earth because
>of celestial motions,i.e. yesterday the earth was somewhere else,
>so to speak.
>
>All this under the assumption of an energy-conservation-law that is
>also time-valid.

   Presumably sending objects into the past would *consume* energy
-- it is only sending them into the future that would produce
energy.  The idea being that if you send an item into the past,
there are now two copies of that item, and it took energy produce
that second copy.  Similarly if you send an item into the future it
ceases to exist for a period of time, and presumably its energy
would become available.

   It seems, though, that you could only "borrow" energy from the
future -- when the future actually came along, and the object once
again existed, its appearance would require the subtraction of an
equal amount of energy, if energy were to be conserved.
   But this is a kind of time-travel machine that we already (in
theory) *know* how to build: convert X to energy, store the energy
for a while, then convert the energy back into X.  Presto, time
travel into the future.

   Not really very exciting, come to think of it.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 08:08 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Books on time travel

Re: jayembee's message of 6 Sep 1986 08:32:32-PDT, and others:

   Turns out I've read, and have both TIME AND AGAIN (Finney) and
BID TIME RETURN...Read the latter first, enjoyed both, and don't
know why I got them confused.  I recommend them both.  I haven't
read Simak's TaA...maybe I should find a copy.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 11:29:25 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Gold Coin Revisited
To: Fournier.pasa@xerox.com

As soon as I saw "a book by I. M. Notsurewho called 'Time and
Again'" I immediately thought of ...

The book by Jack Finney, which I *thought* was called 'Time and
Again' in which the narrator travels to New York of the late 19th
century by imagining himself back there.  It is well written, and
replete with illustrations and photographs of New York and people of
the time.

The following week, when I saw your mention of Matheson, I
immediately thought of ...

The Christopher Reeve movie that I saw on cable some years back.
Some coincidence!  The means of time travel is very similar.  I
remember that Matheson was the author, and also seeing his name in
the credits for a small part in the picture.  I remember the movie
as a pleasant afternoon, and I am very fond of the Rachmaninoff
which suffuses the sound track.

JBL

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 08:57 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Gold Coin Revisited
To: levin@cc2.bbn.com

   In addition to the confusion regarding books/movies on Time
Travel, I remember my jr.highschool library had two books entitled,
STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND.  The one not likely to be discussed here
was a book on anthropology.
   Apparently, print media names cannot be copyrighted/trademark
protected in and of themselves. Where licensing comes in--well,
that's a different game.

Marina

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 06:42:38 GMT
From: navajo!bothner@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time travel [Actually about E=mc^2]

todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>There used to be conservation "laws" for both mass and energy; when
>it became known that they were inter-convertible, the laws were
>merged into a single one.

The author seems to be guilty of a very common misunderstanding
about Special Relativity (which confused me for many years), which
gives me an excuse to emphasize:

Mass and energy are \not/ inter-convertible; they \are the same
thing/. Both the conservation laws (mass and energy) are still valid
under Special Relativity. In fact, given the widely-misunderstood
E=mc^2, \they are the same law/!

E=mc^2 does not say that 'm' amount of mass may be converted in
'mc^2' amount of energy; it relates two systems of measurements
(sets of units) for the same thing.

Thus a mass of lead sitting of your desk weighs 'm' kilos.  It
therefore has a "rest energy" of 'mc^2' joules (if 'c' is given in
SI units). After shooting it out of a cannon, its energy will
increase. This "kinetic energy" is mv^2, according to Newtonian
physics. According to Einstein, it also becomes more massive. The
extra mass is approximately: delta(m) = delta(E)/c^2 ~ m(v/c)^2.
Since v/c is so small, the difference is usually not noticable, but
it significant in the case of fast sub-atomic particles.

On the other hand, something we normally think of as energy, namely
photons, also have a small mass, given by the same old E=mc^2. (Here
E=hf, where f is the "frequency" of the photon and h is Planck's
constant). This mass is what gives light the momentum (hence
pressure) that can drive light sails. Note that while protons (and
neutrinos) have zero \rest mass/, when travelling at the speed of
light, they too acquire mass.

Massive particles must travel slower than c.  Mass-less particles
always travel at light-speed.

Thus in a nuclear reaction, it is not the case that mass is being
converted to energy. Rather it is massive particles (neutrons,
protons etc) being converted into slightly lighter particles plus a
number of zero-rest-mass particles (photons, neutrinos etc). The
total mass remains fixed, as does the total energy. However, the
at-rest mass of the result decreases slightly, and is converted into
a spectacular amount of "kinetic mass".

I hope I haven't made any mistakes or further confused anybody; it
has been a while since I studied physics.

Per Bothner
bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu
...!decwrl!glacier!navajo!bothner
Computer Science Dept.
Stanford University, Stanford CA 94305

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 15:48:01 GMT
From: LIVCU@CUNYVM.BITNET
Subject: Pan AM tickets - to the moon

In 1969/1970 Pam AM offered as a gimmick to "2001:ASO", tickets on
the first "shuttle" to the moon. I believe these tickets were
offered at the time for the then astronomical sum of $2000 (US).

What I would like to know is this: First did anyone in netland
actually buy a ticket? and second has Pan Am been trying to buy
these tickets back for the past ten or so years? I have heard that
they were trying to buy all the tickets back when someone realized
how much the trip would cost and how much they could make.

Any info is welcome
I'm just wondering about this!

Louis Mackey
LIVCU@CUNYVM.Bitnet
City University of New York

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Sep 86 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #291
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 291

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 04:55:03 GMT
From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> To the reader who said that he had read this novel many times
> without seeing any passage in favor of nuclear war, we award the
> 1986 Zinc Star for fearless and incisive critical comment.  Well
> done, well done, noble sir!

Well, Tim, I hope you have TWO Zinc Stars, since you'll have to send
me one as well. The fact that Heinlein's character (and I will allow
that he speaks with the authorial voice, as many of RAH's heroes do)
dryly notes some of the beneficial effects the war had compared with
previous wars hardly marks hims as being in FAVOR of a nuclear war.
I fear this passage, and the other one quoted, were a little too
subtle for Mr. Maroney.

Heinlein's views on war and peace are varied and unconventional. One
of the central themes of TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE is that Lazarus Long
(and various military leaders) realize that "if you fight and run
away, you live to fight another day"; nevertheless, Lazarus is
willing to fight and die for a cause he believes just.

Some of the ethics of conflict that I have seen throughout RAH's
books can be summarized as follows:

1. Above all, it is the duty of a person to defend his/her self and
   family during times of war and conflict.

2. If #1 is secure, defense of country, city, way of life, culture,
   etc., are desirable.

3. Symbolic martyrdom and heroic gestures are less useful than
   assuring personal survival in order to renew the battle at a
   later time.

4. In real battles, we fight to win, and "rules of war" and similar
   niceties are irrelevant.

5. Loyalty to one's government is desirable, but one should be ready
   to get rid of it if it becomes oppressive.

6. It is desirable to possess weapons, since they tend to come in
   handy.

And above all:

7. TANSTAAFL.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 10:14:22 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>> [quotation from FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD in which the protagonist
>> states, inter alia, that the just-occured nuclear war had a few
>> positive effects, in that it killed off the fat, useless
>> stay-at-homes rather than the best & brightest young men; that it
>> killed off the "stupid" who did not plan for war, rather than the
>> cream of the crop...]
>
>  The fact that Heinlein's character (and I will allow that he
>speaks with the authorial voice, as many of RAH's heroes do) dryly
>notes some of the beneficial effects the war had compared with
>previous wars hardly marks hims as being in FAVOR of a nuclear war.
>I fear this passage, and the other one quoted, were a little too
>subtle for Mr. Maroney.

When reason fails, there's always insult, eh, Mr. Berch?  But I
suppose I should thank you for showing your true colors on the issue
right off the bat.  Your statements are clearly emotional, not
rational.

Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a fundamentalist
inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites.  Heinlein was
clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated
outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country".  Go back
and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant you,
it's hard to believe).  He then went on to say that it had "turned
the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net effect
would be to "improve the breed".  Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in
passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that nuclear
war would be a wonderful thing!

I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you
simply must face facts.  The book says what I quoted it as saying,
not what you would like it to have said.  And "Pie in the Sky" is
even more unambiguous: "There are so many, many things in this
so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a
once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment."  You can twist and
turn and try to divert the issue into long lists of irrelevant
Heinlein statements on other matters (which you did, and which I
have omitted), but these are the things he said, and you can't
change that by wishing it away.

Moorcock's essay "Starship Stormtroopers", which you can get in the
collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the fascism
of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar phenomenon of
their support by people who disagree with their views; Mr. Berch has
given us a fine example of this.  While Moorcock makes no broad
conclusions about the reasons for this, I would speculate that it
has to do with two chief factors.

First, we all started reading Heinlein at around age ten or earlier,
before the development of a real critical faculty.  Ideas firmly
implanted at this age are very hard to dislodge later, as every
organized religion knows.  (For me, the break with Heinlein was
when, at sixteen or so, I tried to re-read "Starship Troopers",
which I had liked at twelve, and found it to be perhaps the most
appalling book I had ever read.)  Second, science fiction readers
have a sort of siege mentality, reinforced through imbecilic
articles in Harper's and so forth on how awful the field is; and
this creates a predilection to view criticism of those authors
generally viewed as the bright lights of the field as an attack on
the field itself, and to respond to this perceived attack
viscerally.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 14:53:23 GMT
From: utastro!ethan@caip.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a
> fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the
> Midianites.  Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few
> positive effects; he stated outright that the nuclear war was
> "good for the country".  Go back and check the quote if you don't
> believe me (and I'll grant you, it's hard to believe).  He then
> went on to say that it had "turned the tide" toward the triumph of
> freedom, and that the net effect would be to "improve the breed".
> Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in passing - Heinlein states
> outright and enthusiastically that nuclear war would be a
> wonderful thing!

Heinlein's characters are frequently naive in their hopes.  Is he?
Consider that in the above story Heinlein makes it quite clear that
none of the hoped for effects occurred.  In fact, the nuclear war
was an unparalleled disaster for all concerned.  When the distant
future appears in this novel we see that nuclear war has completely
destroyed the nations involved.  Their distant descendants are
either slaves (if white) or "black trash" if not.

Heinlein's political philosophy is sophomoric, but I see little to
indicate that it is as crazy as you believe.

Incidentally, if "Starship Troopers" is the most horrifying novel
you've ever read then you must have a restricted reading list.  I
also recall that when RAH was taken to task over the concept of
restricting the vote to veterans he responded that he wasn't
imagining a utopia, but a possible future.

Given your views you might enjoy a book called "Armor" by Steakley
(sp?)  which can be seen as a grim rebuttal to RAH's view of
interstellar war.  I don't share your views and I enjoyed it a lot.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Sep 86 09:10:52 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Nuclear War is Good?

While we're discussing RAH's attitude to nuclear war, perhaps you'd
be interested in this:

   "Take this ... atomic bomb, for example... These people [ie, us],
   because of deforestation, bad agricultural methods and general
   mismanagement, are eroding away their arable soil at an alarming
   rate.  At the same time, they are breeding like rabbits.  In
   other words, each successive generation has less and less food to
   divide among more and more people, and, for inherited traditional
   and superstitious reasons, they refuse to adopt any rational
   program of birth control or population limitation.

   "But, fortunately, they now have the atomic bomb, and they are
   developing radioactive poisons, weapons of mass effect.  And
   their racial, nationalistic, and ideological conflicts are
   rapidly reaching the explosion point.  A series of all-out atomic
   wars is just what that sector needs, to bring their population
   down to their world's carrying capacity; in a century or so, the
   inventors of the atomic bomb will be hailed as the saviors of
   their species."

The source is "Last Enemy", by H Beam Piper; first published in
Astounding; reprinted in "Paratime" by Ace (1981).

Since there are some strange people out there in cyberspace, perhaps
I'd better mention

(a) The above is the opinion of Verkan Vall, Chief of Paratime
    Police, First Level, who is a fictional character.  Any
    resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is purely
    coincidental.

(b) The above is not necessarily the opinion of H Beam Piper,
    the author, John W Campbell Jr, editor of Astounding, or
    of any employee of Ace Books.

(c) The above is not necessarily the opinion of Robert Firth,
    the poster of this note, nor of his family, friends,
    employer, or stuffed animals.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 13:18:43 GMT
From: whuts!orb@caip.rutgers.edu (SEVENER)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

I remember back in the 60's that Ramparts magazine had a number of
excerpts from Heinlein's remarks in support of Vietnam, nukes, and a
number of odious positions.  These particular quotes are not the
only ones in which Heinlein advocates unsavory views.  I recall one
of his stories in which he treats very sympathetically the carrying
of lethal weapons, a more advanced type of gun, and conducting
regular shootouts with them.  Heinlein treated such vigilantism as
if it promoted some sense of "honor".

Then there is, of course, Heinlein's series on the "Methuselah
Complex" in which a secret group of "genetically superior" people
who have secretly crossbred to attain incredible lifespans are
persecuted and envied by the mass of the "genetically inferior".

The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing
stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which
seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole
counterculture of the hippies of the 60's.

But then Dostoevsky was a reactionary too.  Such views do not
necessarily negate the value of an artist's work.  Personally,
however I would take Dostoevsky over Heinlein anyday in terms of the
depth of his writing and his attempt to present and come to terms
with the paradoxes of life.

tim sevener
whuxn!orb

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 14:16:37 GMT
From: duke!mtj@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark T. Jones)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

The fact that a character in a novel holds or seems to hold a belief
does not necessarily mean that the author himself holds that belief.
There are many rascist remarks and attitudes in Mark Twain's novels,
but he himself was not a rascist.  Also, a quote by itself has very
little value, you can back up anything you want by taking small
excerpts from a book.  So I do not think that these two quotes
*prove* that Heinlein supports nuclear war.  If Heinlein himself
said (and not one of his characters) that he supports nuclear was
(no rational human being does and I believe Heinlein to be rational)
then you would have proof.

Maybe we could discuss some of the good things in SF, rather than
try to pick on those we don't like.  I sure would appreciate any
good tips on new books and new authors.

Mark Jones

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 15:27:39 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
> Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving
> Heinlein's support for nuclear war.  These are taken from "Ghastly
> Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science
> fiction excerpts.

Aaaaaah yes, the old "quote out of context" ploy.  Most ingenious.

(   Also, as is often the case, "This must be some meaning of 'proof'
    with which I am not familiar."  Thank you, Arthur Dent.  )

> First, from "Pie in the Sky":
>   There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of
>   ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of
>   the Hiroshima treatment.

I am not familiar with the context here.  But note well, he does
emphatically *not* (repeat *NOT*) say that the net effect would be
beneficial.  I would be unsurprised if the surrounding context of
the excerpt made this clear.

> Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's
> Freehold", a post-holocaust novel of which Michael Moorcock wrote
> in the critical/political essay "Starship Stormtroopers", "It's
> not such a big step ... from *Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's
> *Lebensraum*."

Oh, well, Michael Moorcock.  That's all right then.  It *must* be
so.  And he compared him to *Hitler*?  Boy, that Heinlein must
really be eeeeevil.  My, oh my, how eeeeeevil he must be.  Now that
we've all had our little thrill of disgust, can we get on with it?
Thank you.

> Heinlein expounds on the wondrous improvements in America created
> by letting man's friend, Mr. Nucleus, have his way despite all
> this loose talk about the death of the planet.  [long quote
> omitted]

Here, I *am* more familiar with the context, and, as I suspected,
the quote in context is far less clearly nucleophilic.  Consider:
The quote explores the hypothesis that a nuclear war would cull the
"unfit", and that hardy, freedom loving folk might selectively
survive.  (Even so, it is worth noting that again he did *not* say
that the net effect would be beneficial.) In any event, "Aha!
Thoughtcrime!" you say!  But the quote comes from a portion of the
novel before we find out the "true" result of the war.  What was the
"actual" reported result, (rather than the hypothesizing of one of
the characters)?  A canabalistic slave society.  Real cheerful.
Real pro-nuke.  Riiiiight.

Why are there so many bozos who seem to think that everything
Heinlein characters *say* is what Heinlein himself *believes*?  What
nonsense.  His characters (even the protagonists) *often* say or say
they believe things that the actual events in the story contradict.
Using such incidents to deduce what Heinlein himself thinks is like
using the "nobody hurt, only a nigger killed" line to "prove" that
Mark Twain is racist.  Or Mel Brooks, for that matter.

Sorry, Tim.  I just don't find your "quote out of context ploy" very
convincing.  Hardly what I'd call "proof".

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 17:17:37 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing
>stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which
>seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole
>counterculture of the hippies of the 60's.

There are other examples: Job, I Will Fear No Evil, The Man Who
Travelled in Elephants, Waldo all come to mind.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Sep 86 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #292
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 292

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Impossibilities (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 09:51:06 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Impossibilities

        "Prepare yourselves, Gentlemen, for a whole
         new scale of physical scientific values"

Do you hate it when people say things are "impossible"?  Well, I do,
and this is a personal statement, so skip it right now if you'd
rather.  The belief in physical impossibilities is a mental
aberration that afflicts both scientists and non-scientists.  It has
many causes, but the root causes are, I think: in scientists, a fear
that their hard-won expertise will become obsolete; in
non-scientists, a simple fear of the unknown.  "Why, if telepathy
existed, ANYONE could be reading my mind RIGHT NOW"

The established scientists' attitude to the impossible has been
satirised by a lot of people from Charles Fort to H Beam Piper
("Ministry of Disturbance") so I'll say no more on that.  Instead,
let's analyse the disease.

There are three kinds of "impossible": technologically impossible,
scientifically impossible, and theoretically impossible.

Technological impossibility: we have no means of doing it, therefore
it can't be done.  For example, one of the best arguments against
the possibility of space travel was the observation that no chemical
combination known could release enough energy to lift its own weight
out of our gravity well.  Apart from sloppy technical analysis, this
attitude seems a simple failure of nerve.  For a contemporary
analogy, look at the "ten million lines of working software is
impossible" debate.

Scientific impossibility: we know of no theory that predicts it,
therefore it can't happen.  For example, the Earth can't be more
than about ten million years old, because "even if it were composed
entirely of the best grade coal" the Sun could not have been burning
that long.  Such indeed was the position less than a century ago.
Perhaps we are in a similar state today over evolution: we have lots
of facts, but they don't hang together, and there is no convincing
theoretical model.  Hence the endless debate between gradualists and
catastrophists.

Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done.  The most
famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a
longstanding fantasy, born from deep desires in the human psyche,
finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the chemical
elements to be immutable.  Today's bugbear is (you guessed it)
faster-than-light travel.  Every physicist will explain at the drop
of a photon why it's theoretically impossible; few physicists admit
that theories, like all human creations, are fallible, and that the
universe is an endless surprise.

Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we
don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't happen",
or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth.  But, given
the deep desire of the human mind to believe it knows the Divine
Truth, such a change is no doubt impossible.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 04:58:57 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
>       "Prepare yourselves, Gentlemen, for a whole
>        new scale of physical scientific values"

   Or not, as the case may be...

> Technological impossibility: we have no means of doing it,
> therefore it can't be done.  For example, one of the best
> arguments against the possibility of space travel was the
> observation that no chemical combination known could release
> enough energy to lift its own weight out of our gravity well.
> Apart from sloppy technical analysis, this attitude seems a simple
> failure of nerve.  For a contemporary analogy, look at the "ten
> million lines of working software is impossible" debate.

Ok, fine, I can take that, but don't we mean by this that "right now
we don't have the means to do this" some *may* continue this with
"therefore it can't be done" but I think that the average
technologist would add the corollary "eventually however, and given
certain tools...."  Particularly, I think this applies to your
example, because it is certainly going to take a long time before
anyone can write 10 million lines of bug-free, useful software.
Unless, of course, someone can come up with a radically new way of
programming.

> Scientific impossibility: we know of no theory that predicts it,
> therefore it can't happen.  For example, the Earth can't be more
> than about ten million years old, because "even if it were
> composed entirely of the best grade coal" the Sun could not have
> been burning that long.  Such indeed was the position less than a
> century ago.  Perhaps we are in a similar state today over
> evolution: we have lots of facts, but they don't hang together,
> and there is no convincing theoretical model.  Hence the endless
> debate between gradualists and catastrophists.

This carries the same sort of argument, only here you're talking
about the lack of intellectual tools rather than physical tools.
Again, we require some sort of radical development, sometimes known
as a leap of intuition. By saying that something is "scientifically
impossible" we are saying that we don't have the intellectual tools,
aka theories, to explain it. In the case of the Coal Sun, the
evidence available at the time suggested that the sun was
"scientifically impossible" (ie a confession of the inadequacy of
the physics of the time, don't be hard on them, we have similar
problems today) but then they didn't know about nuclear fusion. The
parenthesis in my last sentence states all I think needs to be
stated about your ideas of evolutionary theories.

> Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done.  The most
> famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a
> longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche,
> finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the
> chemical elements to be immutable.  Today's bugbear is (you
> guessed it) faster-than-light travel.  Every physicist will
> explain at the drop of a photon why it's theoretically impossible;
> few physicists admit that theories, like all human creations, are
> fallible, and that the universe is an endless surprise.

Not a lot of difference between "scientific impossibility" and
"theoretical impossibility" unless by the former you are referring
to the *observation* of a circumstance of nature followed by the
statement "that's impossible" and by the latter, the *imagination*
of a circumstance of nature followed by the same statement.  Before
I continue on this, one comment on transmutation of the elements:
what about nuclear physics? Give me a big enough accelerator and a
lump of lead and I'll give a lump of gold in return (or something
like that anyway :-)). There are quite a few elements that do not
exist in nature, but the right sort of fooling around with other
elements will produce them. Aside from that, how do you think the
gold that you might wear around your finger came into being in the
first place. For more information, find yourself a supernova remnant
or a book on nucleosynthesis.

Now for a quick lesson on Scientific Method:
1) Do an experiment, any experiment
2) Invent a theory to explain your results
3) Do another experiment to try to disprove the theory
4) if you fail do disprove your theory, repeat step 3 with another
experiment.
5) If you do disprove your theory, think up another to explain your
now larger set of experimental results and return to step 3.

This procedure lies at the heart of modern science, and is necessary
to its continued growth. I grant you, it doesn't always work this
way, step one may often be replaced by an accidental, and fortuitous
discovery, but the core of the thing still holds. The part that is
never violated is the rejection of a theory that has been proved
wrong.  Now, you have *imagined* a circumstance of nature, namely
the possibility of faster than light travel, but, you have not
demonstrated the fact.  This is the crux of the matter, if you
cannot prove the possibilty of FTL travel, then why on earth should
I consider throwing out what is a perfectly good theory in every
other respect? Therefore I say that it is theoretically impossible.
Now if I go out tomorrow and meet a little green man from Mars who
says he took 10 minutes to get to Earth from home, and can prove it
to the satisfaction of respected scientists, then I shall indeed
throw out my theory that said his journey was impossible and start
on another (not that I'm likely to succeed, I'm no Einstein).  So,
the first thing that any scientist is going to admit is that his
theories are fallible, he wouldn't call them theories if he didn't.
He may refer to "laws of the universe", but that's slightly less of
a mouthful than "in our particular region of the universe, the
observable rules of the universe are .... provided that no-one can
find any evidence that they aren't in which case I shall change my
views accordingly". Just as certainly, he's going to admit that the
universe is a continuous surprise, if he didn't, he wouldn't be a
scientist, and if it was, science would be as boring (and useless)
as all hell.

> Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we
> don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't
> happen", or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth.
> But, given the deep desire of the human mind to believe it knows
> the Divine Truth, such a change is no doubt impossible.

Personally, I find that it is those people who cannot be persuaded
to think otherwise, even in the face of overwhelming evidence in
contradiction to their views, who are most likely to have the
arrogance to believe that they know "Divine Truth". In contrast the
average modern day scientist is quite humbled by the ructures that
his vocation has gone through in past centuries.  The more a man
learns, the more he finds there is to learn.

Tim Abbott

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 19:06:15 GMT
From: ags@h.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Seaman)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

firth@sei.cmu.edu writes:
>Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done.  The most
>famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a
>longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche,
>finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the
>chemical elements to be immutable.

If this is what you mean by "Theoretical impossibility" then you
need a fourth category -- Mathematical impossibility: we can REALLY
prove it can't be done.  Example: you can't write a formula
(analogous to the quadratic formula) for finding roots of the
general fifth-degree equation using only the coefficients and their
roots.

Your example about the chemical elements being immutable seems to
"prove" that it is impossible to change uranium into lead, for
example.  Think about it.

Dave Seaman
ags@h.cc.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 11:39:16 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

firth@sei.cmu.edu writes:
>Do you hate it when people say things are "impossible"?  Well, I
>do, and this is a personal statement, so skip it right now if you'd
>rather.  The belief in physical impossibilities is a mental
>aberration that afflicts both scientists and non-scientists.

    The belief in physical impossibilities is an extremely useful
concept, so much so that all sane persons (in practice, not
necessarily when composing articles for the USENET) employ it. In
'Peter Pan', Barrie put forth the idea that people can fly. Given
your stated belief that the notion of physical impossibility is a
mental aberration, it leads me to wonder if you have ever attempted
to flap your arms and fly to work.  What stops you from at least
making the attempt?

>It has many causes, but the root causes are, I think: in
>scientists, a fear that their hard-won expertise will become
>obsolete; in non-scientists, a simple fear of the unknown.

   Did you ever consider that one cause is rational thought?

>Scientific impossibility: we know of no theory that predicts it,
>therefore it can't happen.  For example, the Earth can't be more
>than about ten million years old, because "even if it were composed
>entirely of the best grade coal" the Sun could not have been
>burning that long.  Such indeed was the position less than a
>century ago.

   You are trivializing an important scientific debate of the last
century.  Lord Kelvin did make a calculation (based on
gravitational, not chemical energy) which showed that this source of
energy could not suffice for for than 10 million years or so. His
calculations were correct, and some people thought that this was a
long enough time that this was probably the source of the Sun's
energy. Others, more concerned with the evidence of geology, were
convinced that the Solar System was much older and that another
source of energy must exist. Other theories were considered, but
nothing gained general acceptance. This is how science is supposed
to work, and I fail to see what you hope to prove by using it as an
example.

>Theoretical impossibility: we can prove it can't be done.  The most
>famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a
>longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche,
>finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the
>chemical elements to be immutable.

    The immutibility of the elements was simply an observation.
Later on, of course, it was discovered that this immutability was
not absolute.  Theoretical understanding was only achieved when the
structure of the atomic nucleus and the nature of the forces holding
it together were gradually discovered. Once again, science seems to
be doing its job.

>Today's bugbear is (you guessed it) faster-than-light travel.
>Every physicist will explain at the drop of a photon why it's
>theoretically impossible; few physicists admit that theories, like
>all human creations, are fallible, and that the universe is an
>endless surprise.

   This line about what physicist will admit is just not true. What
is true is that physicists will explain why it is theoretically
impossible, and why that means that it is almost certainly
impossible in fact. Just like it is theoretically impossible for you
to fly by flapping your arms, and why in practice it is almost
certain that you can't fly like a bird no matter how you try.

>Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we
>don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't happen",
>or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth.  But, given
>the deep desire of the human mind to believe it knows the Divine
>Truth, such a change is no doubt impossible.

   I think you are ignoring another deep desire -- the deep desire
on the part of the Robert Firths of this world to have the universe
turn out to have the laws you want it to have, and not the laws it
seems in fact to have. Why this aversion to the well-established
impossiblity of faster-than- light travel, if not from a desire for
the universe to correspond with the works of Heinlein, Niven or Doc
Smith? Isn't it just terrible and awful that those nasty physicist
say that Warp Factor 9 doesn't make sense! And isn't it true that
Peter Pan really *can* fly -- if you only believe it!

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 18:30:03 GMT
From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

One nit-picky correction:

Call me an idiot, but I would consider fusion and fission to be
processes which have a side-result of transmuting elements.

Jim Griffith
griffith@cory.Berekeley.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Sep 86 1005-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #293
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 293

Today's Topics:

          Television - The Champions & Ultraman (2 msgs) &
                  UFO (3 msgs) & Science Fiction Theater &
                  Mission Impossible & Billy Mumy &
                  The Incredible Hulk & Japanimation &
                  Bewitched & More SF TV (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 03:47:56 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: The Champions

Didn't they get their "powers" after an accident in the Alps or some
such place?  I remember a plane crash, followed by semi-conscious
visions of being helped by someone hidden the mountains. Later they
regain consciousness and discover their new powers.  Then again I
may be thinking of some other show.

Bryan McDonald

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 04:01:44 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman)

cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>Boy, that brings back memories, Ultraman came to Earth while
>chasing an intergalactic monster. He accidently kills a human, but
>in his compassion shares his life with the human. To become
>Ultraman, he must raise the Beta Capsule (the small metallic
>device). Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little
>light on his chest would start blinking, telling him that the

I also remember a similar show where the person(human?) had to put
on a funky looking pair of glasses or goggles to become the
superhero.  I am not sure of the title ( as I was watching this in
Latin America in spanish), but I think it translated roughly to
Ultra-Seven instead of Ultraman.  This guy had to recharge himself
every so often by flying at the sun ( I remember an episode where
the alien bad guys caused a global snow storm and the good- guy
barely saved the world after flying up through the clouds to
recharge ).  I also seem to remember that he belonged to some kind
of defense agency with space ships that split into smaller
components, etc. and that he had this little box of good monsters
that enlarged when he tossed them out that he was always using to
stall the baddies.

Anyone remember this show? (Sorry there isn't more info :-))

Bryan McDonald

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 11:00:10 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: SF-TV shows (Ultraman)
From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

> Ultraman also had to win quickly, otherwise the little light on
> his chest would start blinking, telling him that the Earth's sun
> was starting to drain his energy.

I thought the problem had to do with the Earth's atmosphere.  I
remember an episode where the fight was on the Moon, and there was
no problem of energy drain.

Does anybody remember "Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot" (or
something like that)?  It and Ultraman are intertwined in my memory.
I was amused at the different technologies in the two shows.  In
Ultraman, they had these nifty (spaceworthy?) ships that shot out
huge flames (I think) and could fly vertically and hover.  But when
somebody had to bail out of one, all he had was a mundane parachute.
In Johnny Sokko, they had these nifty rocket backpacks (that of
course shot out huge flames), but the vehicles were mundane
helicopters and such.

Mike Kupfer
Xerox ISD
ARPA: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!kupfer

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 16:12:12 GMT
From: netxcom!ewiles@caip.rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv

From: Ray <CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
>I remember a show call _U.F.O._ when I was much younger, does
>anyone remember the show, the cast members?  I think the bad guys
>organization was something like "SHADO"?  Any help will be
>appreciated.

Ray,

You must realy be dredging the bottom of the memory pit...:-)

There was a show called U.F.O.  Personally, I thought that like any
show, many of its episodes were quite good, while others should have
been buried before shooting; most were acceptable.

The organization, that you correctly identify as SHADO (full name
was Supreme Headquarters - Alien Defense Organization), were
actually the GOOD GUYS!  (At least, from the point of view of a
Earthperson...:-) )

The scenario is that Earth is being sneak attacked by aliens
and our military finally figures it out.  So they set up a
defensive system including a moon base, a tracking-warning
computer known as S.I.D. (? I think...), and a really interesting
combination sub/fighter (mostly submarine, but it mounted a small
one man figher-craft on its nose that was launched from under
water).  The whole thing  must be kept from public knowledge,
since the people would panic if they knew...(Didn't like that
attitude, but it IS the way our 'leaders' would react.)...
...so the Supreme Headquarters is located underneath of a movie
studio!  (After all, no one notices if a movie studio has some very
unusual equipment on hand....it's only 'props' after all!)  And the
supreme commander (E. Straker?) has to run the whole organization,
AND a fully operational movie studio too!  (That provided some
interesting side-headaches to go with the ones of running SHADO.)

Hope This Helps!

Edwin Wiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 08:47:05 GMT
From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv

Yes I remember _UFO_ very well, it was one of my favourite SF shows
of all time. The organisation was called SHADOW which was an acronym
for something like Supreme Headquarters Allied Defence Of the World.
They were the GOOD guys who were protecting the Earth from the
sporadic invasions of humanoid aliens who `breathed' a green liquid
inside their starsuits. The chief good guy, Ed(?) Straker (played by
Ed Bishop), ran the organistion which included a moonbase, a
submarine (which could launch a "flying_sub" interceptor), mobiles
(large tracked vehicles) and a host computers covered in flashing
lights. There were many quite well known actors and actresses in it
but the only one that sticks in my mind is Peter Gordino, the
singer, who did something in the submarine.

Can anyone remember the full name of the character called Paul? He
came in to the show about half way thru one series and ended up as
second in command.  He was a fighter pilot who saw an alien ship but
the authorities wanted it hushed up, as nobody was supposed to know
about the greenies, so they recruited him into SHADOW.

Ah! Memories, memories,

Tony Thomas
adt@ukc.ac.uk
University of Kent,
Canterbury, Kent, England.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 16:40:43 GMT
From: csw@ukc.ac.uk (C.S.Welch)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv--- UFO

That's SHADO not SHADOW and stands for Supreme Headquarters Alien
Defence Organisation. The HQ was under 'Harlington-Straker Film
Studios', a cover which allowed them to move all sorts of things
around disguised as movie props, as well as going "on location".

The aliens apparently didn't want our women this time, but our
organs,as many of those aliens recovered ( dead) had transplants
taken from missing persons.

The green liquid was a heavily oxygenated substance designed to
protect the poor aliens lungs from the effects of acceleration.
Apart from the resultant tinge that this liquid gave their skin, the
aliens were very similar to ourselves.

And why did they do it ? The old dying world syndrome of course,
though I don't know why they had to land in the U.K. so much :-)

This was Gerry Anderson's first programme using live actors rather
than puppets. Looking at Space 1999 he should have given up after
UFO.  (No lets NOT have a discussion about the merits of Space
1999).

I can't remember Paul X's name, but I can add George Sewell and
Gabrielle Drake to cast. The former played Straker's side kick, and
the latter was one of the silver-lurex cat-suited, purple
(anti-static) bewigged women who ran Moonbase.

Chris Welch, csw@ukc

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Sep 86 00:21:19-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Science Fiction Theater

The announcer was news commenator Truman Bradley.

This syndicated series was produced from 1955-1957 and consisted of
78 episodes.  This was one of Ivan Tors' first television series.

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 10:00:57 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Zarquon <CLS21%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER2@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi TV (again) [mi] & The Champions

Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. writes:
>slf@well.UUCP (Sharon Lynne Fisher) writes:
>>Also, nobody's mentioned ... Mission:  Impossible ...
> Whoa, there.  One of the neat things about MI was that everything
> they did was POSSIBLE, right then.  Maybe prohibitively expensive
> and too risky for "field use", but possible -- which pretty takes
> it out of the science fiction realm.

POSSIBLE? I remember an episode when they used an (albeit souped-up)
electric heater with 2-4 filaments about 3-5 cm long to melt a vault
full of solid gold bars!! The molten gold was then drained away
through a hole they'd drilled through the floor. Once this was done,
they sprayed the walls with floor coloured paint! This vault then
cooled down to ROOM TEMPERATURE in about 20 minutes!!!!!

This explains why they didn't call it "Mission Possible"!!

Robin
JANET:  Robin_Savage <CLS21@uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber2>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:08:31 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Re: Lost in Space

  Speaking of the elusive Billy Mumy:

     In a (year escapes me) semi-sitcom entitled Sunshine (based on
 the movie of the same name about a woman dying of cancer, and what
 that does to the husband and child) Billy appeared as a member of
 the band that the husband was in (or was friends with, or
 something).  It was set in Vancouver, BC as I recall, and didn't
 last long, either.

John White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 12:58:05 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com>
Subject: More "SF" on TV (aack!)

For completeness (actually for a decrease of incompleteness) --

I don't recall seeing a mention of 'The Incredible Hulk', where Bill
Bixby would get mad and turn into a green Lou Ferigno.  Poor guy
must have had to worry more about replacing all those pants and
shirts he split than about finding something to eat or a place to
hide.

Also, don't forget The Mechanical Man, and Woman, er, $6M, er,
Bionic, oh, what the heck.

JBL

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:28:37 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Japanimation

Hugh (Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM) writes:
> As for TV shows, does anyone remember "Marine Boy" (and his oxygen
> pillls!!!)? ...

  Didn't Marine Boy use Oxy-Gum either instead of or along with
pills?
  Also, I read somewhere that there was a lot of controversy over
Tobor, the 8th Man, because of the fact that recharged his batteries
by smoking special cigarettes (self-rolled?).

John White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 19:38:39 GMT
From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Brent Chapman) writes:
>[referring to the old "I Dream of Jeanie" show...]
>No, not two separate characters, two separate actors playing the
>_same_ character (the master, whatever his name was) in different
>seasons.

I think you're thinking of "Bewitched", which aired at about the
same time.  Elizabeth Montgomery played a witch named Samantha
Stevens, and her husband Darren was played by two different actors
in different seasons.  (And for the really obscure trivia fans,
their daughter was named Tabitha, and Samantha's mother was Endora -
now, who played *her*?)

Matt Landau
mlandau@diamond.bbn.com
...harvard!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau
BBN Laboratories, Inc.
10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238
(617) 497-2429

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 14:30:28 GMT
From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal)
Subject: tv sf: The Invaders

I'm glad someone brought up "The Invaders".  Something in the note
just previous to it (as seen from here) made me think of it.  There
was a vast amount that was not explained in this series, such as how
the aliens could have such vast powers in terms of spaceships and
disappearing upon destruction, when they couldn't get a little thing
like a pinky finger right.  But for sheer chill factor, it was
top-rate!  The whole notion of the aliens being able to pose as
humans, and infiltrate various levels of bureaucracy and bend it to
their ends was (to me, at least) new at that time and much scarier
than outright monsters, G&D, and what-all.  (Now that I think of it,
government agencies are the perfect place for aliens to hide out.
Some of the worst experiences of my life, not unlike those of Roy
Thinnes' character, happened at the RMV/DMV offices.  Dead ends,
stonewalling zombies, doubletalk, the works!)

Speaking of Roy Thinnes, there was a TV movie that I especially
liked calle "The Norliss Tapes".  Roy Thinnes played some guy,
perhaps a reporter, or p.i., who went looking to see what happened
to some young lady who dissappeared in a small community on the west
coast.  Turned out to have something to do with witchcraft and that
sort of thing.  Either the woman or the Thinnes character left a set
of tapes detailing the whole situation in order that someone coming
later might avoid falling into the same trap.  What I thought was
particularly effective in forming a mood of foreboding and dread was
the scenes of him driving along the coastal highway, with his
voiceover giving his thoughts -- perhaps they were supposed to be
part of the taped recordings.  But his bleak delivery was terrific.
There have been several movies since that had voiceover monologues,
and several books, that I wish they had used him for.

Kenn Goutal
...decvax!sii!siia!kgg

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 14:31:23 GMT
From: sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Goutal)
Subject: TV SF / Japanimation

The discussion of old TV shows and movies, together with the side
chatter about Japanimation, reminds me of a pair of movies I saw as
a kid.  I wonder if any of you also saw them, what details you
remember that I don't, what trivia are associated with them, what
you thought of them.

One was "Twelve to the Moon".  It was in black and white.  It was
about an expedition to the moon with a crew/staff from at least both
the U.S. and the USSR, possibly others (probly UN).  There were
various experiments brought along, such as some plants and animals
(a dog, at least, I think) to see how they would fare in zero
gravity (along the way).  When they got to the moon, they came upon
a place where they found an atmosphere -- or *thought* they found it
-- took off their helmets, and wandered off, never to be seen again.
As I understood it (with my single-digit-age brain), they had been
bewitched/enthralled/mind-controlled by some unseen being or force.
(Perhaps it *was* seen -- I hadda leave for a while.)

The other was in color, perhaps the first I'd ever seen, called
"Battle in Outer Space".  It started out with scenes on earth
involving a person dissappearing from a rooftop, a railroad bridge
floating up out of place and a passenger train tumbling headlong
into the river/chasm below.  Eventually the story winds up on the
moon or Mars or someplace, with little green men with yellow
light-up eyes scurrying around behind the rocks, and one of the
astronauts being caught in a trance and made to destroy the ships in
which they had arrived and on which they were supposed to leave, by
leaking fuel into the wrong place, with explosive results.  All the
while, this voice was telling him "TIME... IS RUNNING.. OUT!" along
with directions on how to sabotage the ship.  After the abject
terror induced by the first one, this one was good for a laugh.

Kenn Goutal
...decvax!sii!siia!kgg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Sep 86 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #294
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Sep 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 294

Today's Topics:

              Books - Asimov & Bixby & Delany & Dick &
                      Koontz & McIntyre (2 msgs) & Niven &
                      Simak & Steakley & Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Sep 86 16:59:06 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Asimov's robots

>It's R. Giskard... who is plotting to guide the future of
>mankind...

In THE ROBOTS OF DAWN (title?), it is indeed R. Giskard. However, in
the next book, ROBOTS AND EMPIRE, R. Giskard dies in the event which
made Earth radioactive (no flames, please), and Daneel is left to
carry on alone.  Maybe the 0th Law dictated that humanity could not
return to its home planet without harm....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:02:58 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Re......(Its a GOOD Life!)

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM (Marina Fournier) writes:
>    I seem to remember reading that story, by Jerome Bixby (I
> think), in an anthology called Tomorrow's Children, (edited by
> Asimov) and being surprised a number of years later when I saw it
> on TV. It was either a TWILIGHT ZONE or OUTER LIMITS episode. It
> WAS Billy Mumy.

  The short story also appeared in a SFBC edition called MUTANTS (I
don't know if the book had any other life than SFBC), edited by
Robert Silverberg, in 1974.  "It's a GOOD Life" was copyrighted to
Jerome Bixby and Ballantine Books in 1953.

John White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 02:10:17 GMT
From: unc!gallmeis@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister)
Subject: New Books and New Authors

mtj@duke.UUCP (Mark T. Jones) writes:
>Maybe we could discuss some of the good things in SF, rather than
>try to pick on those we don't like.  I sure would appreciate any
>good tips on new books and new authors.

I was recently mulling over the BEST-EVER-YOU-BETCHA ballot that
flew across this window a few days ago, considering the choices,
some rather clear-cut and some distressing.  One of the distressing
ones to me was "Best All-Time SF Series"... I KNEW I'd read better,
but in the absence of my library, I couldn't think of anything to
top Asimov's Foundation Series (only the first three books, thank
you very much, derivatives are flat where the original function
slopes...)...  I decided to sit on that question for a few days,
while I read through a book by Samuel R. Delany.

The book is three in one; as such it is considered a series.  The
series (and the current publication) is entitled _The Fall Of The
Towers_.

These books are some of the very best things in Speculative Fiction
today.  THESE BOOKS GET MY VOTES AND SHOULD GET YOURS!!!!!!!!!

Delany wrapped my brain around his concepts.  Delany wrapped my soul
around his finger and sent it bouncing around like a yo-yo.  Delany
blew poor Isaac clean out of the pond.  Delany, it should be
broadcast, has a habit of doing this to the merely great authors of
speculative fiction.

Mark, read some Samuel R. Delany.  My suggestions:

   Short Story: "Aye, and Gommorrah..." in Harlan Ellison's
      _Dangerous Visions_ anthology (don't say you don't read things
      EDITED by mouths!)
   Short Stories: _Driftglass_ also contains "Gommorrah".  Also,
      "The Star Pit", which will knock your block off and put it
      back on sideways.
   Novellas/Novel: _Tales of Neveryon_, a collection of novellas --
      maybe the longest vignette on record, and gorgeous from all
      angles.
   Series: _The Fall Of The Towers_.  Read it read it read it read
      it read it!

Bill O. Gallmeister
...!mcnc!unc!gallmeis
(PS a hint as to Delany's skill: that's ALL of his stuff I've
read...)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 18:14:54 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Blade Runner vs Do Androids...

   I must say, I was very disappointed with the original book.  I
had never read any of Dick's books before, and based on this one, I
wouldn't read any more (if it wasn't for the fact that everybody
else loves his work.)

                      *** SPOILERS FOLLOW ***

   I *did* like the basic premise behind the book.  The idea of the
empathy boxes and Mercerism was something I did feel interested in.
I actually think it is an optimistic view of a post nuclear war
society.  This totally unifying non-extremist religion seems to do
people in the society a lot of good, spiritually.

   Having created the basic society (which is the purpose of the
book, to create this sort of society, and then say "What if...?")
Dick then has to write a story around it (so that there could be a
book to publish.)  This is where it falls down.  I found large parts
of the story difficult to believe, and there are quite a few loose
ends which Dick doesn't tie up.  Perhaps some of you could put me
right on some of these points?  (I may have missed the point
completely!)

   First of all, when Deckard is captured by the android police
station, he escapes, because the android Captain cannot be bothered
to kill him, although it means certain death for him and the other
androids if he doesn't.  This is explained by saying that androids
don't care for anything but themselves, not even other androids.
Given this, I still don't find it convincing, especially if the
androids have human-equal intelligence.

   Next there is the matter of Phil Resch.  He is a member of the
android precinct, and therefore should be an android.  Also we are
told that he must be an android, because he can remember working in
that precinct with those people for the last eight years.  Deckard
knows that the androids only came in about two years previously.
This would seem to indicate that Resch is an android with a false
memory (this idea was kept in the film) which cannot be given to
humans, only androids.  However, when tested, Resch comes out human.
Dick doesn't explain this at all.  It seems to me that he needed
Resch kept alive to make an important story point (about Deckard
empathising with female androids) and forgot all about the logical
structure he had built around Resch being an android.

   Finally, there is the matter of Deckard's believability as a
character.  I found it very difficult to believe that Deckard was
any good at his job.  The film turned him into a reasonably good
detective, which justified the fact of his being hired when the
other guy on the job gets chewed up by Leon (who can be seen getting
speared to death in Flesh + Blood, gore fans.)  The book doesn't do
enough in this direction.  In the film, J.F.  Sebastian was killed
alongside Tyrell, so Deckard has to go to his flat to investigate,
setting things up nicely for the final battle (best part of the
film!  Well done Ridley (Alien) Scott!) In the book, Roy goes to
great pains to ensure that the andies won't be discovered in
Isidore's (Sebastian's equivalent) flat.  Unless Isidore blabs (not
very likely) they won't be found in that deserted part of the city.
This clearly needs some skill on Deckard's part to find them.  What
he does is this: he very shrewdly and cleverly picks up his R/T
phone, and the office tells him where to find the andies.  Cop out
or what!  Time for the big battle!  (BIG SPOILER coming up.) Deckard
walks in to the room, and shoots them.  Ta-daaahh!!  Oh well.

   Someone said that they thought the film was a little unrealistic
in terms of timescale.  In other words, they did not believe in the
large number of advances occurring in only thirty-seven years.  The
book is set in wait for it...1992!  Only a mere twenty-four years
after publication!

   I think Dick's idea of saying the film was "inspired by" rather
than "based on" DADOES is fully justifiable.  DADOES constructs a
world based on Mercerism and empathy with all living things, with
everybody trying to get off Earth a.s.a.p.  (with an android to help
you in the colony.)  Having done this, it has to justify itself by
telling a story.  Blade Runner (ie the movie, not the book) takes
the best aspects of the story and improves it beyond measure.
However it totally ignores the basic premise of the book, as it has
to.  The idea behind the book is totally unfilmable.  If you try to
show Mercerism visually, it just doesn't come across.  It is
impossible to do complete justice to this book on film.  Oddly
enough, Ridley Scott's younger brother Tony took an unfilmable book
and tried to film it.  The result was the totally incomprehensible
(unless you read the book first) The Hunger.

Silas_Snake%Bradford.Central.CYBER1@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 22:33:22 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Re: Dean Koontz

Having read _Whispers_, _Darkfall_, and _Phantoms_, I feel qualified
to say that Koontz does a better-than-average job at horror stories.
All of these were excellent (in my opinion -- flame on) and were not
obvious rewrites of the same novel with slightly different character
names and scenery.  Note that Darkfall had its share of SF embedded
in it (the creature itself as well as the biological organism they
used to take care of it).  It fit quite well into the story line,
but the book was definitely a horror story.

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 86 14:38 CDT
From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Initial Voyages of the Starship Enterprise

Ditto on most of the ideas that wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu wrote in
SF-Lovers V11 #271.  "Prequels" of any sort are difficult to write
and ST has to be especially tough as people tend to have their minds
made up on what each character's personality traits are.  I confess
to having my having my eyes opened while reading McIntyre's novel.
It's a good solid read and even if I detected a slight feminine
slant in the writing, it certainly doesn't detract from the book too
much.  I enjoyed the few hints at future events, and especially a
few of the deeper insights in to the characters of Hikaru Sulu, Lt.
Uhura and a little mind melding with Mr.  &#^@%*#()@ .  Note: this
is the best my keyboard can do at setting the name in print.  Most
of us know Mr.  &#^@%*#()@ as Mr.  Spock.....  As far as Janice
Rand's past goes, in the series I never got the impression that she
she was the wimp McIntyre portrays her as.  I understand that the
emotional make up of a 16 year old is shaky at best, then to have
endured the Star Fleet education on top of it all would bend anyone
out of shape.  I think ****SPOILER ***** the fact of her family's
crash on a "slave planet" and subsequent escape is a little
fantastic, but ** end spoiler** McIntyre didn't dwell on it too
much, only during the little chat with Uhura.  We did get a little
hint at part of the next book as far as Janice is concerned, she's
going let her hair grow into that ridiculous Dolly Parton tower of
hair and be more self confident.  I am curious about the "regen gel"
and exactly how it got into Rand's roomie's shower (lt.  Uhura and
Dr.  McCoy apparently know each other....)  A did enjoy it though
and look forward to the next initial voyage.

------------------------------

Date: 8 September 1986, 14:48:15 EDT
From: "Brent T. Hailpern"  <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Enterprise: The First Adventure

The book was well written and fun.  I particularly enjoyed reading
it immediately after reading ST III.  Kirk's feelings toward his
father are interesting in light of David's feelings toward Kirk in
ST III.  Rand is an interesting character in ETFA, probably one of
the best developed characters in the book.  One confusing point in
my mind is that Chekov shows up in ETFA, but since he did not join
until the second TV season it seems that he should not be on board
(yet).  I am also suprised that Sulu, who is just coming out of the
academy, is a lieutenant (rather than an ensign) and is given a
prime shift bridge position.

In summary, for those who like Star Trek, it is well worth reading.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 20:05:28 GMT
From: mtung!ijk@caip.rutgers.edu (Ihor Kinal)
Subject: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies.

Seeing all the articles on tidal forces caused me to remember the
story by Larry Niven called, I belived, "Neutron Star."  There, the
hero went around a neutron star and was subjected to very intense
tidal forces.  The ship was forced to point directly in the
direction of the star.  When I tried to figure out the forces
involved (versus a perpendicular configuration), I got bogged down
in the math.  I then looked at the problem differently, and by using
the gravity potential, convinced myself that the said configuration
was indeed the minimum energy one, and that the story was indeed
correct (at least on that aspect).

        Likewise for water, the gravity potential indeed indicates
tides both closer and away from the moon, with the mass of the moon
clearly having an effect on the gradient and resulting tide size.

        Note that this tide - gravity potential exists even if the
earth is NOT rotating.  The rotation may have an effect in the
timing of tides, but I'm not sure I believe it has a direct effect
in the size, since the 'centrifugal force' is more or less uniform
around the eath's circumference.

Disclaimer: I COULD be wrong - it's been 20 years since my 1st year
physic classes.

Ihor Kinal
ihnp4!mtung!ijk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 22:24:06 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Clifford Simak _Time is the Simplest Thing_

Jerry Boyajian writes:
>To answer another point that was brought up, Clifford Simak also
>had written (20 years previously) a novel titled TIME AND AGAIN,
>but there's no connection other than the title.

Are you thinking of Simak's _Time is the Simplest Thing_?  Or did he
write two books dealing with time travel?  I have read _Time is the
Simplest Thing_, a novel about space travel via paranormal powers
and time travel via techniques learned in trading one's mind with an
alien (these details only to give you an idea of the book I am
speaking of).  To quote the alien, "Time is the simplest thing there
is...."

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 16:07:10 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: _Armor_, by John Steakley

> you might enjoy a book called "Armor" by Steakley (sp?)  which can
> be seen as a grim rebuttal to RAH's view of interstellar war.

Yes indeed, a very good book, and obviously an echo of
_Starship_Troopers_.  And, while _Armor_ and _Starship_Troopers_
give somewhat contrasting views of human expansionism and
militarism, I enjoyed them both mightily.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 22:23:26 GMT
From: jeffr@sri-spam.ARPA (Jeff Rininger)
Subject: Need Info On SF Story

I once read a short story called (I think. . .) "On The Wall Of The
Lodge", co-written by a man and a woman, perhaps husband and wife.
As I remember it, this story appeared in an anthology edited by
Robert Silverberg.

If anyone remembers this story, and the anthology in which it
appeared, would you please refresh my (alleged) mind ?  I would very
much like to find the story and re-read it.

Thanks for your time.

Jeff Rininger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Sep 86 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #295
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Sep 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 295

Today's Topics:

         Television - Astro Boy & Dark Shadows & Ultraman &
                 Underdog & Prince Planet & Star Trek &
                 The Powers of Mathew Star (3 msgs) &
                 Gerry Anderson Shows (3 msgs) &
                 Bewitched (2 msgs) & Some More SF TV &
                 Portraying Japanese

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 22:03:27 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Lyrics to the ASTRO BOY TV show

Well, here they are, as promised, the complete lyrics to the ASTRO
BOY theme, as transcribed from a tape recording of the show.
(Incidentally, the chorus of kids seems to be from New York or
possibly Jersey, not surprising, since that's where the show was
dubbed into English.)

There you go, Astro Boy,
On your flight into space.
Rocket high through the sky.
What adventures do you all day?

Astro Boy, bombs away,
On your mission today.
It's the countdown and the blastoff.
Everything is go, Astro Boy.

Astro Boy, as you fly,
Strange new worlds you will spy.
Atom cells, jet-propelled,
Fighting monsters high in the sky.

Astro Boy, there you go,
Will you find friend or foe?
Cosmic ranger, laugh at danger,
Everything is go, Astro Boy.

Crowds will cheer you,
You're a hero,
As you go, go, GO, Astro Boy!

(These are the opening lyrics.  There is one other verse, sung at
the very end of the closing credits, which are otherwise orchestral,
and a slight rearrangement of the opening theme.  Here's that last
verse:)

Astro Boy, jets okay,
On your flight into space.
What can I do to be like you
And become a real Astro Boy?

[Great stuff, huh?  I always thought that they should have given
Astro Girl her own show.  She always had more personality than her
stodgy brother.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 08:51 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Dark Shadows
Cc: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)

If you can make a case for Green Acres being SF, you can certainly
do the same with Dark Shadows, especially with their time travel,
even into parallel time.  I'm enjoying it vastly as it's now being
syndicated in LA on Channel 56.  I understand that it's been showing
on New Jersey Network for the last 3 years, but has just been
cancelled.  Anyone have any news on that?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 86 09:55:39 -0400
From: David Krewson <krewson@huey.udel.EDU>
Subject: Ultraman

The name of the human who can become Ultraman is Hayata (sp?).
("Using the Beta Capsule, Hayata becomes...ULTRAMAN!!).  In addition
to firing rays by crossing his hands, he could also put his hands
together and squirt water (a handy feature for dealing with the
fire-breathing monsters).  Hayata is also a member of the Science
Patrol (if memory serves), a bunch of people tracking the movement
of monsters and other nasties about Japan.  They all wore those
orange velvet outfits with a tie and helmet.

Dave Krewson

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 03:31:00 GMT
From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Yoda: Follower of the Reverend Mother)
Subject: Re: SF on TV (a total loser with superpowers)

From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.BitNet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
>Wasn't that a guy called Stanley Beamish ?  He received his extra
>powers like superstrength or ability to fly by special pills.

That sounds more like Underdog to me (Shoe-shine Boy in disguise).
Remember, Underdog always got his strength from his super Underdog
vitamin pill that he kept in his ring. Eghads, I can hear
Polly-Purebread singing "Oh where oh where has my Underdog gone?"
allready...

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ucbvax!cory!cc-30
USnail:  2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:05:33 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: SF TV Shows

Ah, PRINCE PLANET!  One of my favorites, although I didn't see an
episode until I was in college, and haven't seen one since.  (Like
ASTRO BOY, it's in black and white, and so tends not to be shown on
TV anymore.)  For anyone who cares, it was one of the first Japanese
cartoons to jump on the bandwagon created by ASTRO BOY, and the
basic premise was similar to that of the Lensmen or Green Lantern.
Prince Planet was sent to Earth by the Galactic Union, headquartered
on the planet Radion, to observe our planet for one year.  At the
end of this time, he would report back to the Union as to whether
Earth should be invited to join.  In the meantime, he engaged in the
usual superhero stuff.  At the end of the show, in an episode I
never got to see (preempted by a Chicago White Sox game), he did
indeed go back to Radion.  What was interesting about the show was
that its hero was clearly mentally ill.  He was terribly homesick,
and at least once was suicidally depressed, almost getting himself
killed by refusing to use his medallion's powers.  He had an Oedipal
streak a mile wide, and often dreamed about his mother, who bore an
uncanny resemblance to the Earth girl in whose home he was living.
At least two of the major villains were into B & D, and one of them
once captured the Earth girl to be the consort of the ruler of
another planet (white slavery, anyone?).  Refreshingly, however, he
finally killed off one of his two greatest enemies by sneaking up on
him from behind and blasting him while the villain was exulting in
his triumph.  I'd love to see the show again.

Incidentally, I think there's a verse missing from the PP theme
Andrew Siegel posted, but I can't remember the words to it.  Unlike
the ASTRO BOY theme, the music is uninspired, and the lyrics have
escaped me.

Miscellany:

My favorite JONNY QUEST episode was the one with the invisible
monster that they painted bright pink.

I believe the Daily Planet Building in the SUPERMAN TV series was
played by the L.A. Times Building.  (Type casting.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:21 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: century of Star Trek

>Some more evidence for the 22nd-century theory: in "Tomorrow is
>Yesterday", when they go back to the 1960s, and Kirk is captured by
>the guards in that army base and tells them the truth about how he
>got in there ("I just popped out of thin air"), one of them yells
>at him: "We'll send you to jail for the next 200 years", and he
>then murmurs: "that should be about enough".

Yeah, isn't it interesting that Kirk's lines, while humorous, seemed
to be all literally true.  Resulting in lots of interesting fannish
speculation on the line "I'm a little green man from Alpha Century
-- beautiful place, you ought to see it!"  That's one of the reasons
I loved the pro novel: Crisis on Centaurus -- it explains that.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 23:55:21 GMT
From: cae780!louann@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

I also remember a show called Mathew Star, about a teenager who is a
prince from another planet. He is in hiding on Earth until he can
attain full use of his mental powers with the help of his teacher.

Does anyone else remember this series.  I think it was on for about
2 seasons.

Lou Ann
louann@cae780

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 20:34:08 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

I think the name of the show was Star Prince. It lasted for about
1/2 a season. I don't remember who played the lead. But I think I
remember seeing Amy Steel play his girlfriend, and Lou Gossett
playing his mentor. It had a few god moments, but mostly it wasn't
anything special.
   This show came out about the same time as another short lived
sci-fi series called The Phoenix. It starred Judson Scott as an
ancient starman burried in a Mayan tomb. He had special powers which
he got from the sun. The entire series duration was about 6 wks. I
think it was up against Dallas in its prime, so it didn't stand a
chance.
    It was however one of the few sci-fi series that concentrated on
the characters more then the special effects, and was rather well
written if a little boring.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 23:36:31 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: SF-TV programs

     Now I remember. The original name was Star Prince. That was
changed to the name the series eventually had: The Powers of Mathew
Star.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 03:33:04 GMT
From: hropus!jrw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Webb)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson)

> I remember a show call _U.F.O._ when I was much younger, does
> anyone remember the show, the cast members?  I think the bad guys
> organization was something like "SHADO"?  Any help will be
> appreciated.

Sure, it was one of Anderson's early shows.  A truly British
production.  I do not remember any names of the cast members, but
the special effects were adequate for the time, I guess.  The good
guys' ships were tiny craft, with a giant missile protruding from
their nose.  They were launched from moon bases against typical
looking flying saucers.

Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they
weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean.  I remember one
about this family how lived on this island and had all these rockets
and aircraft that were numbered.  One of them was this sort of
flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly.  It
stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods
underneath.  Another rocket shot out from under their swimming pool,
that slid aside to allow it to shot past.  This show also had a
"CloudBase" or something with female rocket fighter pilots, or was
that another show?

Oh well, sorry for the ramble...

Jim Webb
...!ihnp4!hropus!jrw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 20:30:11 GMT
From: ihlpf!rtradm@caip.rutgers.edu (Vangsness)
Subject: Old Sci-fi TV (Anderson)

To the best of my knowledge, Gerry Anderson produced the following
TV shows:

Supercar (used Marrionetes instead of real people)
Fireball XL5 (Marrionettes)
Stingray (Marionettes)
Thunderbirds (marrionettes)
Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons (marionettes, never shown in
   Chicago???)
Joe 90 (Marionettes, never shown in Chicago????)
UFO (used real people!)
Space 1999 (used real people)

I understand that Gerry divorced his wife ( who was his partner in
most of his projects, and he is now using Marionnettes again). He is
supposed to have produced a show called "Terrahawks" and is now
working on a show called "Secret Police".  I thought all the
Anderson stuff was great when I was a kid.  Are these new shows a
reality?

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 06:16:02 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: UFO

UFO was another effort by Jerry and Sylvia Anderson.  The premise
was that UFO's were attacking Earth in hopes of conquest.  To avoid
panic, a top- secret defense network was devised called SHADO
(Supreme Headquarters, Alien Defense Organization).  Let's see.
Another acronym was the satellite named SID--Space Intruder
Detector.  The action seemed to take place in three main areas--moon
base, the main headquarters, and on board a submarine.  They had
severl methods of destroying the UFO's--manned one- shots
originating from Moon Base, a flying sub launched from the
submarine, and mobile tanks.  In addition, they had some sort of
bazooka-like affair.  A number of neat models.  I was watching the
show in 8th grade, which would make it around 1971 (I may have
slipped a year or so somewhere).  I think the show was supposed to
take place around 1995.  In one of the shows, moon base was stumbled
upon by a wandering prospector, so space travel wasn't limited to
the UFO hunters.

The show looked designed to sell models--they had the manned
one-shot space ships, the submarine with its detachable flying nose,
the mobiles, the earth-moon shuttle, their turbine cars, and the
UFOs.  I don't remember seeing any models over here--perhaps some
appeared in England?

Was UFO Jerry and Sylvia Anderson's first live-actor series?  Before
that they did a number of marionette films.  After that they did
Space: 1999.

I don't remember seeing any of the principle actors in anything else
(I take that back.  One of the moon base operators was rather cute.
I think she showed up in an Avengers episode.  Gabrielle
something?).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 03:53:35 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: I Dream of Jeannie

Re two Tony Nelsons

As far as I know, there was only one actor playing Tony Nelson.
However, I heard something about a tv movie remake last year.  They
might have gotten someone else for that.

There were two Darren's in Bewitched--Dick Sargeant and Dick York, I
think.

Someone told me that they had a different Ginger in the Gilligan's
Island movies.

Have I drifted far enough asea yet?  I was trying to figure out the
influences behind I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched the other day.
Bewitched sounds a lot like _Bedazzled_, but has nothing at all in
common with it.  A bit more like _Bell, Book, and Candle_, including
the practical joker of a brother.  I remember a much older movie (at
least, I think it was much older), where a witch and her father try
to haunt this young bachelor.  The witch slips a love potion in the
bachelor's water, to make the bachelor fall in love with her to make
it easier to ruin him.  Unfortunately, the witch happens to drink
the water.  I don't remember the title of this one.

I Dream of Jeannie seems to owe a lot to _The Brass Bottle_.  It's
clearly not based on it, though.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 14:48:35 GMT
From: lcuxlm!bjg@caip.rutgers.edu (Goldner Barbara)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

> Stevens, and her husband Darren was played by two different actors
> in different seasons.  (And for the really obscure trivia fans,
> their daughter was named Tabitha, and Samantha's mother was Endora
> - now, who played *her*?)

Agnes Moorehead played Endora.

bg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 05:52:26 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv

My old SF tv list:

UFO- Some interesting speculative stuff.  Anyone else ever see the
  toys?
Lost in Space
Superman
The Time Tunnel
It's About Time
Avengers -- late "Emma Peel" episodes have lots of SF elements
Stingray
Ultraman -- we used to watch this and simply howl.  Zweck!?!
Marine Boy - yes, it's Oxygum
Land of the Giants
Space Ghost (?) -- Sat. cartoon circa 1968?

And now for the two mytery guests:

There was a Japanese cartoon featuring a (robot?) kid with "hair"
that stuck up in two points on the side of his head.  He had rockets
in his shoes.  Anyone remember the name?

Even more obscure: on Ranger Hal (WTOP in DC; I don't believe it saw
any sort of national distribution) there were occasional episodes
of this odd sort of space show which I remember very little about.
The only thing I remember is that the spaceships bore a remarkable
resemblance to the "Pigs In Space" ship without the engines.  I
believe there was a hole in the "snout".  Does anyone have the
slightest idea what I'm talking about?

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 18:59:25 GMT
From: usl!elg@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Lee Green)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

>This isn't only true of Macross, but of EVERY Japanese animated
>I've seen.  also. (BTW, see how they portray Japanese?  Short, fat,
>balding, eyes set to either side of their _nostrils_, pug noses,
>etc.?  What kind of self- image do these people have?)
>
>It seems this is true of all Japanese films, in fact of many
>Oriental films.

I suspect that the Japanese have cashed in on American racism by
shipping us films which appeal to our own self-image as the
"superior race" and laughing all the way to the bank.

I wonder if anybody ever picked up on the anti-Americanism in
Godzilla-type movies? Just think about it for awhile... a huge, ugly
monster comes crashing in from the west, and reduces Tokyo to rubble
with flames and brute force... remember the fire bombings, etc.?

Eric Green {akgua,ut-sally}!usl!elg
(Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Sep 86 1008-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #296
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Sep 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 296

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 23:07:50 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: _Alien_ and _Aliens_

From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
>       I saw ALIEN the first or second day it came out in Boston.
> There was an additional 5 minutes or so of extra film that was cut
> out of some of the other versions, including the Laser copy I own.
> I positively remember that the exploration scenes on the alien
> ship were much longer and I specifically remember seeing the crew
> find the beacon. It was located in the wall in the same room where
> the dead pilot was and was behind a 'glass' case. The beacon
> looked much like a phonograph and I do recall that the crew shut
> off the beacon before the incident with the face hugger. Did
> anyone else recall this version? Or was it another movie?

I positively remember the same scene.  I did not, however, ever see
the original _Alien_ in a theatre, but only on HBO and/or Cinemax.
I am only so sure that I saw it in the movie because the movie's
picture of the thing was much different than what I had imagined in
the book.  I remember the exact scene described by Wes, so it could
not be just too-vivid memory from the books description.  Anyone
else remember it too?

On to more recent creatures:

jayembee (above) posted another article tearing apart sdcc12!st94wb
about his statements that Jones is the carrier of a spore-like alien
form.  I stand beside jayembee on this one -- there was absolutely
no evidence (book or movie) that indicates the presence of yet
another form of the alien.  If there is another sequel, it might be
of yet another ship coming across the vessel with the eggs (as
someone else said, they never make it clear whether or not they nuke
the original site), or maybe colonists/explorers coming upon the
original planet.  (There may not be an original planet anymore -- if
those creatures were designed, as they probably were to be so
effective, the race that did it had obvious suicidal tendencies and
probably nuked themselves into oblivion.)

In another point brought up by jsgray@watdragon.UUCP:
>The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and survived the
>vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship.

The queen could have hidden within the landing-gear's storage area.
The landing gear was exposed and had obvious openings into which a
queen with her race's contortionist methods could have crawled.  I
can't remember where the queen eventually came out of (or did they
ever show you), but this could be the case.

Another point, that was a military ship.  There are always other
entrances into a military ship, in case they are needed by the
military personnel.  On a space-going ship, why couldn't there be
access panels that mantain life-support in order to allow soldiers
to get in the fast without having to go through the airlock?
Better, there were probably gun ports or ammunition storage areas
that may have been pressurized and accessible to the outside.

Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived the
trip up _in_a_vaccuum_.  She could have been quite comfortable.

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 17:20:26 GMT
From: crash!adamsd@caip.rutgers.edu (Adams Douglas)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

The actual dialogue in the scene is:

                               RIPLEY
              Lieutenant, what do those weapons fire?

                               GORMAN
         Ten-millimeter explosive-tipped caseless. Standard
         light armor-piercing round. Why?

They _are_ explicitly stated to be explosive tipped.

Adams Douglas
ARPA:crash!adamsd@nosc.arpa
UUCP:adamsd@crash.uucp
JPL/NASA
MaBell:818-354-3076

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 15:28:17 GMT
From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

My original question still stands, i.e "Was any mention made of it
being incendiary or explosive...". Caseless ammunition is different
from conventional ammunition only in the packaging of the
propellant. From what I've read of the trials and tribulations of
various manufacturers trying to produce caseless ammunition, I would
concur that the weapons in question are indeed future weapons :=).

In the statement in question, I was wondering if I missed one of the
points of explanation that seemed to be required to explain a key
premise.  To wit: The aliens, which were defined as very efficient
killing machines in the first movie, could be effectively fought
with an approximation of 19th century conventional weapons.  My
point in asking the question was that there was a significant amount
of destruction resulting from hits from a 10mm slug, much more than
would be expected from either the slug size or the apparent recoil
of the weapons.

A typical automatic weapon would be expected to impart a muzzle
velocity in the range of ~ 1500 feet per second ( give or take a few
hundred fps). The effects of 9-12mm slugs are well documented at
this class of velocities, and would not explain the apparent effects
on creatures such as the aliens with their exo- skeletons. It would
seem that in order to cause the destruction evident, either the slug
would have to travel at a higher velocity, or the slug is explosive,
etc. Assuming that the ammunition is not explosive or incendiary,
(which is the point I'm trying to resolve), the slugs would have to
be traveling at a higher velocity than is currently prevalent in
conventional weapons.  The only way this could be accomplished in a
conventional weapon would be by substantially increasing the
reactive force, i.e., recoil.  I suppose it could be postulated that
there would be some sort of recoil-absorbing device such as inertial
damping, etc., but the military tends to keep field weapons,
especially sidearms and light automatic weapons, as mechanically
simple as possible. (No comments on the early M14, M-16, etc. :=)

When I watch a movie (or read a story), I tend to accept the
descriptions of events, physiology, tools, etc. as they are
presented. It is certainly sometimes easier to explain situations
and events by postulating many things, but I prefer to assume that
the {author, director} made plain all of the assumptions and
explanations underlying the story. I feel that succesfully
explaining things within the context of the story makes it much more
satisfying.

Still waiting for the sequel(s)
Steve Boyle
{decvax, cbosgd, mit-eddie, linus, masscomp}!genrad!teddy!svb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 18:40:25 GMT
From: dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon)
Subject: Re: _Alien_ and _Aliens_

>Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived the
>trip up _in_a_vaccuum_.  She could have been quite comfortable.

   At then end of the original ALIENS, Mr Alien seemed quite
comfortable in vacuum as he attempted to climb back into the escape
craft after the lock was blown, until Ripley decided to engage the
thrusters.

Matt

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 13:55:11 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Cotton)
Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY

oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes:
>Hmm. Maybe not. In my second viewing, I noticed that the queen was
>actually hiding *inside* the landing leg cavity.  And also, if we
>can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a
>several-ton-heavy queen hanging off ripley's leg for several
>seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart, than
>we can assume that the landing feet cavities are not exposed to
>vacuum, thus queen survives.

However: The landing legs would have been down *before* the landing
bay was pressurized.  Thus the queen would have been exposed to a
vaccuum for (at least) a brief period.  Further, if the landing leg
cavity was indeed pressurized, wouldn't the queen have been ejected
by the escaping air?

Eric Cotton
UUCP: {ihnp4|allegra|seismo|pyramid!amiga}!cbmvax!eric
ARPA: cbmvax!eric@seismo
US mail: Commodore Technology
         1200 Wilson Drive
         West Chester, PA 19380
phone: (215) 431-9180

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 02:19:05 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

>My original question still stands, i.e "Was any mention made of it
>being incendiary or explosive...". Caseless ammunition is different
>from conventional ammunition only in the packaging of the
>propellant. From what I've read of the trials and tribulations of
>various manufacturers trying to produce caseless ammunition, I
>would concur that the weapons in question are indeed future weapons
>:=).

Ah!  But are they refering to caseless as in no cases for the
explosive, or caseless as in unjacketed shells?  Consider: If they
are propelled by an electromagnetic pulse (or series of pulses), you
do not need any normal propellant.  You cou could pack a lot of
punch in that little clip if you aren't using chemical propellant,
and thus have no need for any kind of propellant case.

I thought about the noise the guns made, too.  You'd think that an
electrically propelled shell would make vary little niose, right?
Remember those shells are *moving!* They'll still produce a decent
shock pattern even without the added noise of chemical propellants.

Also, I believe there was a lot of smoke produced by the weapons in
the movie.  But those were specifically said to be explosive-tipped
armor piercing shells (which, BTW, would make a mess of just about
anything), so this smoke could very well have been the result of the
explosive tips.  Those of you who don't remember them saying they
were explosive tipped, look for a posting where somebodyorother gave
the exact dialogue.  I don't recall if the weapons flashed, but I
suppose they could be using some sort of tracer mechanism (eg
magnesium strip ignited as it passed through the barrel), though
this would leave a streak and not a flash, I would think.

These *are* future weapons, so you can assume any changes they made
would be improvements.  Think of the advantages of using a
non-explosive, non-mechanical method of propulsion:

  * Almost no wear on the barrel
  * Better spin by providing a magnetic field rotation perpendicular
    to the barrel direction.  This is complicated machinery, but you
    could easily get rotations immensely faster than most rifles
    today, giving great accuracy with only a short barrel.
  * REAL high output speeds and quantities, since there is no
    problem with cooling off the barrel.
  * Very compact magazines, since all you need is the shell and
    some sort of feader mechanism (or you could use something more
    complicated so that almost all the space in the magazine is
    used by shells).
  * Almost no deviation of barrel direction during firing (ie, no
    pull off to the side, since there should be no inconsistencies
    in blast force as there must be in a rifled barrel).
  * Nearly no mechanical parts to wear out or jam, except in the
    feeder mechanism, which doesn't have to worry about ejecting
    spent shells anyway.
  * No carbon buildup from propellant, since the propellant is all
    electrical.
  * Happier soldiers, who hated cleaning their rifles all the time
    anyway.

As for possible problems, I suppose that needing a power source is
one.  There are lots of possibilities to that one, though, including
a power source contained in the clip that contains enough power to
shoot the shells in the magazine.  Note that you don't need a
high-output source which delivers for an extended period of time,
only one which can provide adequate pulsing.  Also, you can fit the
power source in the spare area within the shell that can't be filled
by round shells.  This might be why they'd want to save the
magazines as well -- they'd be expensive.  (Note that this isn't a
novel idea -- anyone out there have a Polaroid instant camera?  They
do exactly this, with a real flat battery in the film pack.)  Also,
there'd be lots of spare space (say, in the butt) for a pretty good
power source, maybe a fission source or something either better or
simpler.  I can't remember if there was a butt on those guns, but
you'd still have the grip under the barrel and the handgrip to work
with anyway.

For those of you who don't understand what I mean by electromagnetic
propulsion, it would work just like a linear accelerator, on a much
smaller scale.  Somebody at some university made a small one to test
to see if they could send things into orbit with it.  This was
written in a magazine I read, probably _Science Digest_ or
_Discover_, a few years back.  My memory isn't quite good enough to
give a complete description; sorry.  Anyway, you set up a series of
rings which produce a magnetic field.  By pulsing them, you can get
it to push or pull about any ferrous material.  By doing this in
sequence, you can get quite an acceleration.  Yes, it *does* take
lots of power, but I'm sure they'll find a way to do it somehow.

Just another theory about their weaponry.  Probably I've made some
theoretical errors, but what the heck -- I'm a SF nut, not a
military weapons expert.

Let them aliens have it!

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 03:46:03 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Re: _Alien_ and _Aliens_

>>Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived
>>the trip up _in_a_vaccuum_.  She could have been quite
>>comfortable.
>
>   At then end of the original ALIENS, Mr Alien seemed quite
>comfortable in vacuum as he attempted to climb back into the escape
>craft after the lock was blown, until Ripley decided to engage the
>thrusters.

Ah, but remember -- he was not exposed to explosive decompression,
thus sparing him from fast vaccuum effects, and the slower ones
(like the bends and oxygen deprivation, or whatever the thing
breathed) had no time to take effect before he got cooked.  I'm not
sure what the time is for a human to be pretty well incapacitated by
a reasonably quick but non-explosive decompression, but I think it's
at least ten or fifteen seconds.  Obviously, this thing is tougher
than we are, and it may be designed (yes, I do think it was designed
-- can we meet its makers in the next one?) to handle short periods
of decompression, since it seems unlikely that periods of one-half
hour or so would be too survivable by any conceivable organism (at
least one so versatile as the alien -- you gotta draw the line
somewhere) above the microorganism size.  (Microorganisms sometimes
go into a spore-like state where they can survive all kinds of
things.)  The trip upward took a little while, and the ship was
orbiting outside the atmosphere (this is in the book, but should be
obvious in the movie) so that even though it did not undergo an
explosive decompression, it did undergo an extensive one if it was
outside the ship.  I admit it is a possibility that the thing was
outside, but I believe in probabilities -- it was much more probable
that it survived in a cubby of some kind, probably in the landing
gear.  Someone else mentioned that they thought it came out of
there, and I thought so too, but maybe it just hid there when the
ship was landing.

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1456-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #297
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 297

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 86 12:57:31 GMT
From: m128abo@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Ellis)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

One possibility for transgalactic travel would require sweeping up
*entire stars* in order to maintain constant {ac,de}celeration until
one arrived at one's destination. Presumably, stellar engineers
would forge black holes out of the material of many suns into some
peculiar geometry.

If GR permits such things, the truly cosmic traveller might wish to
never stop accelerating, and, by gulping up ever larger quantities
of stellar material, ultimately develop a voracious appetite for
galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so forth..  Perhaps one could
thus waste the entire universe, thereby participating as an active
agent in the ultimate apocolypse, assuming a closed cosmology.

michael

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 16:56:27 GMT
From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller)
Subject: Re: Decompression (was Alien&Aliens)

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>Ah, but remember -- he was not exposed to explosive decompression,
>[...edited, SHM] I'm not sure what the time is for a human to be
>pretty well incapacitated by a reasonably quick but non-explosive
>decompression, but I think it's at least ten or fifteen seconds.
>Obviously, this thing is tougher than we are, and

Any number of SF stories (sorry, I can't remember any names, but I
think that Arthur Clarke did one once) deal with incidents where
humans are exposed to vacuum for a short period and survive.
Obviously, these are emergency situations.  The usual consequences
are burst capillaries and sunburn, with the prime danger (besides
suffocation) being destruction of bodily organs by internal pressure
and the boiling of one's blood (also the bends, I think).  If these
Aliens are exoskeletal (I didn't see either movie), then they would
be better able to handle low-pressure/vacuum situations.

(BTW, another humans-in-vacuum scene occurs in Sheffields (?)
Roker&McAndrew series...)

Scott Hazen Mueller
City of Turlock
901 South Walnut Avenue
Turlock, CA 95380
lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev
work:  (209) 668-5590 or 5628
home:  (209) 527-1203

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 18:13:48 GMT
From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>Ah!  But are they refering to caseless as in no cases for the
>explosive, or caseless as in unjacketed shells?  Consider: If they
>are propelled by an electromagnetic pulse (or series of pulses),
>you do not need any normal propellant.  You cou could pack a lot of
>punch in that little clip if you aren't using chemical propellant,
>and thus have no need for any kind of propellant case.

Now there's a neat set of design theories. Very interesting. I
assumed that caseless referred to the propellant charge, one way
thsi has been done is to form the propellant into a cup shape,
surrounding the projectile on the bottom and the circumference, like
so:
       ____________
      |           |
      |           |PP
      |           |PPP
      |           |PP
      |___________|

Where the Ps represent the nose of the projectile. I could see
another objection to the use of conventional propellent weapons in
the future. The propellent would have to include the oxidizer, since
there is a good possibility the weapons would be used in vacuum. Now
there's a pretty problem.

>electrically propelled shell would make vary little niose, right?
>Remember those shells are *moving!* They'll still produce a decent
>shock pattern even without the added noise of chemical propellants.

Right, since anything over ~1000 fps (in air) is supersonic. However
this effect is not as noticeable as the noise produced by the
propellant, more like a short, sharp 'crack'.

>I don't recall if the weapons flashed, but I suppose they could be
>using some sort of tracer mechanism (eg magnesium strip ignited as
>it passed through the barrel), though this would leave a streak and
>not a flash, I would think.

I remember the weapons producing a muzzle flash, as opposed to
tracer streaks.  (Although this could have been a case of seeing
what I expected to see, or the limits of technology that were used
in the production of the film.)

>These *are* future weapons, so you can assume any changes they made
>would be improvements.

>source contained in the clip that contains enough power to shoot the

Strong possibility, since the magazines were especially noted as
expensive.  (They must be very expensive, even current magazines are
expensive, and they're considered throwaways.)  Also, the magazines
that Vasquez(?) pulled out of her pocket for her and her buddy were
very compact for the class of weapon (medium automatic).

>Just another theory about their weaponry.  Probably I've made some
>theoretical errors, but what the heck -- I'm a SF nut, not a
>military weapons expert.

Maybe you ought to be, you have some real good ideas!

>Let them aliens have it!

Absolutely. I also like the idea of meeting the aliens' makers.

Steve Boyle
{decvax, cbosgd, mit-eddie, masscomp, linus}!genrad!teddy!svb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 04:04:10 GMT
From: NICXU@CUNYVM.BITNET
Subject: Re: aliens...original idea?

Speaking of which, has anyone read the book ""Spinner"" by Doris
Piczercia (SP?).  I think that the Alien in there was quite the the
model for the Nasty in "Alien" and "Aliens".

Points that compare:

1) Both had nasty slime that solidified and held people in place.
2) Both planted their young on humans.
3) Both needed only one Queen to start an entire new generation.
4) Both had razor sharp appendages, were real strong
5) Both were Humanoid in shape
6) Both preferred their hosts alive.

There were difference too, I'll admit, but the similarities seem a
little too many to reconcile easily with.  I don't remember which
came first, off- hand, but it would be interesting to check (which I
will do first chance I get).

Yossie Silverman
YOSSIE@BITNIC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 86 06:27:02 GMT
From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>Now wait just a second -- that's not quite what Adams is saying
>(i.e. that the theoretical limit can be exceeded.)  I admit it
>wasn't well phrased, but what he is saying is that if you are
>willing to accept a 35-1 mass ratio you can still do it: 35-1 !=
>impossible.

   I don't know about this.  To say that the limit can be "violated"
seems to say that you can do better than the 35:1 ratio.  Maybe we
should let Frank clarify what he meant (I've been waiting for this
for several days now...).  I agree that 35-1 is not the same as
impossible.

>>   I don't deny this possibility, which is why I explicitly stated
>>that the calculation applies only to ships powered by onboard
>>fuel.  Note, though, that the fuel available to be picked up is
>>hydrogen and other matter -- since it can only be fused, rather
>>than converted directly to energy, the efficiency is much lower.
>>I'll try to do a calculation on the amount of hydrogen that has to
>>be collected to power such a ship.  I suspect it will be
>>impractically large.
>
>Gee David, I didn't realize you knew so much about 100 percent
>conversion drives and such -- tell me, what is the usual fuel for
>100 percent mass-conversion?  What is it about the protons and
>electrons in hydrogen that makes them so much more intractable?

   Matter and antimatter in equal quantities.  You can't convert
ordinary matter by itself into energy.
   I will admit however that it might be betrte to do somewhat
better than fusing the hydrogen into iron -- there should be some
additional release of energy if, for example, you could collapse the
residue into neutronium.  This is getting into the realm of the
extremely unlikely, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what the
absolute *theoretical* limit would be (in contrast to the rocket
drive, where there is a clear physical limit).

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 21:13:43 GMT
From: amdcad!phil@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes:
>A typical automatic weapon would be expected to impart a muzzle
>velocity in the range of ~ 1500 feet per second ( give or take a
>few hundred fps). The effects of 9-12mm slugs are well documented
>at this class of velocities, and would not explain the apparent
>effects on creatures such as the aliens with their exo- skeletons.
>It would seem that in order to cause the destruction evident,
>either the slug would have to travel at a higher velocity, or the
>slug is explosive, etc.  Assuming that the ammunition is not
>explosive or incendiary, (which is the point I'm trying to
>resolve), the slugs would have to be traveling at a higher velocity
>than is currently prevalent in conventional weapons.

I don't know about your 1500 fps muzzle velocity figure.

The M-16A1 5.56mm/.223 Cal rifle has a muzzle velocity of 3,712 fps.
The M-14 7.62mm/.308 Cal rifle has a muzzle velocity of 3,198 fps.
The Browning M-2 .50 Cal/12.7mm machine gun can fire the M-8 armour
piercing, incendiary round at a muzzle velocity of 2,930 fps. At
1,000 yards, it can penetrate an inch of armour plate. Of course,
the M-2 weighs 84 pounds. But the M-16 is nothing to sneeze at.

                  2
Let's recall K= mv
                --
                 2

Note the squaring of velocity. By contrast, the Colt .45 Cal pistol
fires rounds with a muzzle velocity of 830 fps.

It wouldn't be that surprising for a conventional M-16 to neutralize
a target which is not stopped by a pistol. How tough can the alien's
exoskeleton be, anyway?

Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720
UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 21:25:27 GMT
From: amdcad!phil@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

svb@teddy.UUCP (Stephen V. Boyle) writes:
>Where the Ps represent the nose of the projectile. I could see
>another objection to the use of conventional propellent weapons in
>the future. The propellent would have to include the oxidizer,
>since there is a good possibility the weapons would be used in
>vacuum. Now there's a pretty problem.

Uh, current propellents, both gunpowder (which is rarely used by the
military for several reasons) and smokeless powders (nitro based)
are already self sufficient. Gunpowder of course is based on
potassium nitrate, a powerful oxidizer. The nitro based systems
don't rely on combustion but rather release energy from the breaking
of chemical bonds.

I suppose rail guns seem really cool but I wonder about the energy
density and discharge rate of smokeless powders vs any possible
battery required to operate such futuristic weapons. Since rail guns
use such powerful magnetic fields, what happens when two are used
close to each other?  Do they attract or repell each other
(strongly!)? What does the magnetic field do to other electronics
carried by the soldier?

Also, since the aliens had such strong acids available (their blood
could easily eat through the floors and the soldier's armour) why
didn't they just melt down any doors in their way?

Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720
UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 21:11:31 GMT
From: tdawson@wheaton (Tony Dawson)
Subject: A Quick Aliens Question:

When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see the
cloud-covered planet through the open air lock.  BUT when Ripley
blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field.  Did I
miss something?  Who or what moved the ship?  Was it not the same
air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were clouds
in the drop scene).

Tony Dawson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 20:01:36 GMT
From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea)
Subject: Re: Re: ALIENS - Ripley grabs loader...

As I recall from the movie, didn't they have an extension of some
sort on the end of the magazine?  The receiver of the rifle ended
flat, and the magazine was inserted with the thickening on the end
(about the size of a pistol handgrip, perpendicular to the upright
part of the magazine that held the shells) mating with the end of
the receiver to form a sort of "streamlined" whole.  Could that be
the power supply?  It *was* mentioned that the marines were supposed
to recover the used magazines because they were expensive.  Having a
high-density power supply in each one is a good reason for expense,
eh?

Brent Woods
USENET:   {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh
ARPANET:  woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM
USNAIL:   Brent Woods
          Box 1004 Cary
          West Lafayette, IN  47906
PHONE:  (317) 495-2011

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 02:56:35 GMT
From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: A Quick Aliens Question (clouds through open air lock)

tdawson@wheaton (Tony Dawson) writes:
> When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see
> the cloud-covered planet through the open air lock.  BUT when
> Ripley blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field.
> Did I miss something?  Who or what moved the ship?  Was it not the
> same air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were
> clouds in the drop scene).

I've seen the movie only once and don't have the novelization, but I
can think of several reasons:

1. The ship is probably over a different part of the planet! It is
NOT likely to be in a synchronous orbit; these are quite high orbits
(22,000 + miles in the case of earth) and highly unsuitable for
planetary drops.

2. The ship is in a different attitude with respect to the planet.
In free-fall, spacecraft tend to change attitude quite often.

3. The sky cleared over that section of the planet. It happens.

4. It's a different airlock, on the other end of the ship.

I'm sure I could come up with a few more, but #1 is the most
plausible.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 22:37:32 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: Alien Behavior -- ripoff?

>Speaking of which, has anyone read the book ""Spinner"" by Doris
>Piczercia (SP?).  I think that the Alien in there was quite the the
>model for the Nasty in "Alien" and "Aliens".
>
>Points that compare:
>
>1) Both had nasty slime that solidified and held people in place.
>2) Both planted their young on humans.
>3) Both needed only one Queen to start an entire new generation.
>4) Both had razor sharp appendages, were real strong
>5) Both were Humanoid in shape
>6) Both preferred their hosts alive.

Long on SF and short on biology.  Actually, it may be you're right,
and I'm the one who's out of it by not having read "Spinner."  But
I've wanted to make some comparisons between Alien behavior and that
of many terrestrial bugs.

   o Spiders: webs, exoskeletons, wrap up prey and keep a while
     [though dead].
   o [some] Wasps: grab certain animals, keep them ALIVE and plant
     young on bodies to feed.  Exoskeletons, too.

It's bothered me that, unlike either of the above, the Aliens have
two forms that alternate generations.  Adult killer Alien is
followed by face-hugger [or Beta-Creature].  This second stage is
necessary in the Aliens' reproduction, remember -- the Adult can NOT
produce other Adults, only [some of them can produce] Beta
Creatures.  And the Betas then implant the host body with a fetal
Adult.  All this reminds me of certain plants and, believe it or
not, jellyfish, which alternate [hope I have this right] medusa and
polyp forms over the generations.  Quite weird.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1517-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #298
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 298

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Delany & Forward &
                   Hawke & Plauger (2 msgs) & Tepper &
                   Baen Book Club & Columnists (2 msgs) &
                   Responses to Requests (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 01:23:07 GMT
From: lzaz!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: The APPRENTICE ADEPT trilogy by Piers Anthony

SPLIT INFINITY, BLUE ADEPT, JUXTAPOSITION: novels, Piers Anthony,
1980, 1981, 1982.  Roughly 250 pages each.

     In a world of science, serfs have everything but freedom: in
place of that, they have the Game.  In a world of magic, the
inhabitants have everything except power; that's reserved to the
Adepts.

     My twelve-year-old got these as a gift, and when he was
grounded for a few weeks, well, he found time to read them.  He
recommended them to me.

     As pure entertainment, it was okay.  But the plot seemed to
follow Anthony's convenience, not its own course.  (It has the worst
deus ex machina since Varley's MILLENNIUM.) None of the characters
come alive: certainly not Stile, not his too many loves, not his
uncountable enemies.  The Game has some interesting bits, but I
didn't appreciate hearing the rules of *every* competition.  Nor
could I believe how often Stile won.  And I wish Anthony could have
injected a *little* humor into a duet of two musicians playing
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony on harmonicas.

     Not bad if you need something to read in the car while waiting
for the auto club to bring help.  If you want to leave your brain
turned on through the entire performance, choose something else.
(But my twelve- year-old liked it.)

Paul S. R. Chisholm
UUCP: {ihnp4,cbosgd,pegasus,mtgzz}!lznv!psc
AT&T Mail: !psrchisholm
Internet: mtgzz!lznv!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 07:55:55 GMT
From: cs1!cbcscmst@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael Steven Temkin)
Subject: Piers Anthony

Back in May I was informed that the next book in the Bio series
would be out in Mid July along with the paperback version of Tangled
Skien.  Does anyone know what happened?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 18:54:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delany

Quite early on I read several stories by Delany, and enjoyed them
IMMENSELY!  (Try "The Jewels Of Aptor" for GREAT fantasy, and "The
Fall of the Towers" I remember as being VERY good, although I read
it so long ago, that I can't remember much of the story.)  However,
I got de-railed by Delany when I tried tackling a new (at the time)
book of his (I can't remember the title) where the character spends
the entire novel wandering around this immense city (post-holocaust,
I believe) without really DOING much.  GREAT language usage and
descriptions, etc, but I just got tired of no plot developments.  I
realize it's unfair to give up on an author after one disliked book,
but I haven't time to read half of the books I buy, now, so I
haven't read much by him for the last ten years or so.

Everett Kaser
Albany, OR

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 03:48:56 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: STARQUAKE by Robert L. Forward

                   STARQUAKE by Robert L. Forward
                           Del Rey, 1986
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Robert Forward's first hard-science science fiction novel,
DRAGON'S EGG, was published in 1980.  It was a remarkably enjoyable
story of the visit of a neutron star to our solar system, and of the
inhabitants, the cheela, whose time sense is roughly a million times
as fast as ours.  At that time it appeared that Forward could go one
of two ways.  he could either be a new James Hogan, with adventures
built around engaging scientific concepts, or he could become the
new Hal Clement, with more cute, likeable aliens.  After his third
novel, it is clear that he is closer to Clement or even Alan Dean
Foster than he is to Hogan.  In fact, his plotting my be the weakest
of any of them.

     Forward's first two novels dealt with space expeditions and
first contacts.  His third novel is really a direct continuation of
his first two, telling of the exciting adventures that happened on
the one day following (the next 100 cheela generations).  As with
the previous novels, the characters are rudimentary and the
science-as-background is the real star.  Forward says in the 21-page
appendix that "one can hardly imagine a more alien life form than
the cheela."  That may be true if the "one" is Forward, but in fact
the cheela are too much just oddly shaped humans.  Forward has
touches like having the cheela wink at each other to flirt.  Their
shape is odd, but their behavior is very human.

     STARQUAKE might have been called DRAGON'S EGG: THE NEXT DAY.
The novel takes place over 24 hours.  That is about a hundred
generations of cheela time, though clearly some cheela seemed to
live a lot longer than Forward's appendix suggests they do.  What is
more, Forward has some fun with cheela names and the more he has,
the less I had.  cheela now have names like Otis-elevator,
Newton-Einstein, and, in what I assume was an inside joke for SF
fans, Fuzzy-Pink.

     STARQUAKE does cover a considerable piece of cheela history and
if you try you can get some feel for the sweep of history, but
overall, this novel of life on a neutron star is a bit light-weight.
Forward may continue to write science fiction, but I suspect he will
remain a one-book author.  The best thing about STARQUAKE is that is
caused a re-issue of DRAGON'S EGG.


Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 06:20:31 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: New Simon Hawke TimeWars?

I've just finished reading Simon Hawke (sp??)'s TimeWars series.
Does anybody know if he intends to continue the series after the
fifth one? I've been having an immense amount of fun.

For anyone who hasn't read this series, it's a good bunch of popcorn
books.  The usual premise, of "Gee, golly, there's a glitch in the
timeline, and we've gotta go fix it." comes into play.  However, the
glitches come about because of time travel, and going back to "fix"
it is a regular duty of a whole military organization.

Hawke doesn't base his books on real history.  He bases them on
fictional history.  Each book corresponds to another well-loved
fictional work.

   The Ivanhoe Gambit:  Ivanhoe and Robin Hood
   The Timekeeper Conspiracy:  The Three Musketeers
   The Pimpernel Plot:  The Scarlet Pimpernel
   The Zenda Vendetta: Prisoner of Zenda (what else?)
   The Nautilus Sanction: 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

These books are FUN.  Check 'em out if you need some light reading.

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 18:11:19 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: P.J. Plauger

The only novel by Plauger that I know about was published as part of
a paperback "13th issue" of _Analog_ sometime during the Bova years.
It was as I recall, quite good and was apparently a sequel to a
story called "Wet Blanket".  Unfortunately I can't remember the
title of the novel, but it did involve a formerly mad protagonist
who had to disable a mass driver on the moon to keep it from being
used against Earth a la _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax

BTW: That 13th issue is worth having for Spider Robinson's "Half an
     Oaf" also,  possibly the funniest thing he has written.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 12:27:07 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: P. J. Plauger

From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
> I picked up a used copy of The 1976 World's Best SF (edited by
> D.A.Wollheim) and found it has a story by P.J. Plauger, "Child of
> all Ages".  I believe this is the same P.J. Plauger that cs people
> know as the author of The Elements of Programming Style, etc.  I
> enjoyed the story and wonder if anyone knows of any other stories
> he's written (short stories in magazines or novels).

Yes it is same Plauger. Other stories of his include:

"Epicycle"              ANALOG  (Nov 1973)
"Wet Blanket"           ANALOG  (Feb 1974)
"Dark Lantern"          ANALOG  (Jul 1974)
"Storymaker"            GALAXY  (Feb 1976)
"Fighting Madness"      ANALOG ANNUAL   (Apr 1976)
        [edited by Ben Bova]
"Here There Be Dragons" AURORA: BEYOND EQUALITY (May 1976)
        [edited by Vonda N. McIntyre & Susan Anderson]
"The Con Artist"        ANALOG  (Dec 1976)
"Virtual Image"         NEW VOICES III  (Apr 1980)
        [edited by George R. R. Martin]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 20:32:03 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Dervish Daughter

Can anyone tell me what's doing with Sheri Tepper's new book,
"Dervish Daughter"?  I've read two reviews of the book that had to
have been written at least half a year ago, but I've yet to see the
book itself on the shelves.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 16:37:26 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Baen Replies

The following is a message from Jim Baen from Scifido (a science
fiction BBS and more!). It is a reply to the discussion on the Baen
Book Club that also has been discussed here. Hence I decided to copy
the message to net.sf-lovers.

                           Start Message

War?  What war?  This was all a misunderstanding based on the
absence of the proviso that the discount was a temporary loss-
leader -- a fact that was made clear in flyers distributed at
conventions.  Because of the perhaps understandable mini-uproar
provoked by that omission (and the fact that we do NOT -- repeat NOT
-- want to even seem to be competing with our outlets we are
converting the Book Club to a Survey Group (a primary purpose of the
Club in the first place was to create a data source of people who
had read a lot of Baen Books) with a target membership of 250, and a
maximum membership of 500, which comes out to about 5 to 10 people
per state.  During the six months the club was in place, we garnered
a total of 120 members, which comes to about two members for each
state.

Jim Baen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 17:47 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Harlan and Isaac's mouths

While I partially agree with Bill Ingogly's feelings about Harlan
Ellison's F&SF column, I do enjoy Asimov's column.  The difference
is in the ratio of self-indulgence to information.  In Ellison's
movie reviews you have to read through large amounts of dribble to
find the one or two points he has to make about the movie, and even
these are not usually interesting.  In Asimov's column, if you don't
like his anecdotes all you have to do is start from the third or
fourth paragraph (just look for the first blank line) and you'll be
reading a nice science essay; he may toss in a couple of personal
quips, but certainly not enough to ruin the piece if you don't like
that sort of writing.

Personally, I like Asimov's nonfiction writing style.  His essays
are just like his lectures in this regard.  They have a personal
feeling, as if he were talking to me in my living room, not writing
a paper for a journal.  I feel I have come to know him as a person
through his essays and introductions in anthologies; when I read his
autobiography (if you don't like his anecdotes in essays, keep away
from this!)  I had a real feeling of deja vu because much of it had
already been written in his essays and collections such as "The
Early Asimov".

Ellison's nonfiction writing style is also like his lecture.
However, he is not friendly and congenial like Asimov in either
medium.  Instead of making the reader feel as if he were having a
friendly conversation, it is more like listening to a child whine
about how poorly his parents treat him.  He comes across as mean,
bitter, cynical, and a perfectionist.  It is hard to enjoy this type
of rambling.  Somebody must, though, because they keep paying for
him to do it (I suppose I'm part of the problem, because I never
expressed these feelings to the publishers of F&SF).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:05:33 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Columnists in F&SF

Over the last decade or so, it seems to me that Asimov has been
dumbing down his science column, so that it now appears to be
pitched at twelve-year-olds.  (How many twelve-year-olds read F&SF,
I wonder?)  This drags one column's worth of material into two or
three, since he over-explains everything now.  The ever-longer
personal anecdotes only exacerbate this problem.  I wish Dr. A would
write for adults in F&SF, and save the younger-reader stuff for his
juvie science "How Did We Learn About (whatever)" series.  Ellison
is often witty, though as a movie criticism column his writings
leave a lot to be desired: He often forgets to mention WHY he didn't
like something.  But the one I've given up on completely is Budrys.
He never checks his reported "facts," and has reviewed his own
books!  I think Ferman publishes stuff like this in an attempt to
stir up controversy, maybe in hopes of getting more readers.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 14:24:33 PDT
From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Cc: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #287

>A friend of mine has been searching for the following book for
>years...  The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who
>gathers a force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers
>of the galaxy and their minions....  At one point, our hero
>impresses a bunch of locals on a planet by riding down his
>spaceship ramp upon a horse.

Could your friend be thinking of "Rebel of Rhada" and its sequels,
by Robert Gilman (the title is correct; I may have the author
wrong).  The books were in the children's section of the library
when I was growing up, but they have recently been reissued in
paperback and are still available (I noticed copies in Change of
Hobbit last week).  I remember the books with great affection: the
monastic order had inherited the space ships, and had no idea how to
repair them or build new ones, but like the monks of St.  Gall and
their manuscripts, they kept what they had alive, and went through
all the "sacred" ritual and appropriate chants, and the ships still
traveled.  And the horses of Rhada went to war in the ships--they
could talk and were intelligent.

Christe

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 18:22:40 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Need Info On SF Story

From:   sri-spam!jeffr  (Jeff Rininger)
> I once read a short story called (I think. . .) "On The Wall Of
> The Lodge", co-written by a man and a woman, perhaps husband and
> wife.  As I remember it, this story appeared in an anthology
> edited by Robert Silverberg.
>
> If anyone remembers this story, and the anthology in which it
> appeared, would you please refresh my (alleged) mind ?  I would
> very much like to find the story and re-read it.

You got the title correct. It's by James Blish and Virginia Kidd,
and it appeared in DARK STARS. As far as I can tell, that's the only
place it's appeared other than its original publication in the April
1962 GALAXY SF MAGAZINE.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 13:45 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Story search, reply

Your description is sort of vague, and I don't remember about the
horse, but it sounds like Triplanetary by EE "Doc" SMith.  This is
the first the first book in the Lensman series.

Brett

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1528-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #299
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 299

Today's Topics:

       Films - Beastmaster (3 msgs) & Gross Movies (4 msgs) &
               Jittlov (3 msgs) & Cartoon Request &
               Sinbad (2 msgs) & Submarine Movies &
               Videos (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:11:10 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Movies

Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster" either:
   1) notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton 'juvenile' of
      the same name; or
   2) notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said
      resemblance?

John White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 17:53:41 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: BEASTMASTER (was Re: Movies)

>Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster" either:
>     1)  notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton
>         'juvenile' of the same name; or
>     2)  notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said
>         resemblance?

This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's
been up at least four times this last year.  Yes, the title was the
same.  No, the film wasn't based on the book.  No, Norton got no
credit (I don't think you can copyright one-word titles anyway).

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu
BITNET: mtgzy.uucp!ecl@harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 14:26:43 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: RE: Re: BEASTMASTER (was Re: Movies)

>>  Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster"
>>  either:
>>     1)  notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton
>>         'juvenile' of the same name; or
>>     2)  notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said
>>         resemblance?
>
> This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's
> been up at least four times this last year.  Yes, the title was
> the same.  No, the film wasn't based on the book.  No, Norton got
> no credit (I don't think you can copyright one-word titles
> anyway).

Well I'm new to the net & I was curious to see the answer to this.
Regardless of copyright of TITLE, as far as I could see there were
too many similarities in the movie to claim that it did NOT infringe
on the book.  It seems to me that people have been sued for
plagarism with a lot less "matches" than this one had.  I heard some
scuttlebutt that Norton was going to sue & then settled out-of
court??  Didn't Van Vogt get a settlement from the "ALIEN" people --
were there *that* many more similarities there than in
"Beastmaster"?  (Actually, I suppose the reason I was so mad when I
saw the movie was that if they *had* really used the book it would
have been a much better movie. AT least I think so.  Of course,
Hollywood can always ruin things :-))

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 00:10:46 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies

From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
> In response to the inquiry about G&D movies, I think a distinction
> should be made between G&D movies (e.g. Friday 13th, Halloween,
> etc)

As I recall (and it has been a while), you never saw one drop of
blood in Halloween.  It was also a very scary movie.  I recommend
it.  This film certainly does not deserve to be lumped in with your
"G&D" generalization.

But Halloween II would qualify.

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 03:24:42 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Halloween and blood

You're right about Halloween not being clumped in with G&D movies,
but technically, there was blood in it.  The only point I can
remember off the top of my head is in the initial scenes where the
kid is stabbing his sister, and afterward outside, when the knife is
covered with blood.  If I thought about it more I could probably
remember other scenes, but it's really not worth that much effort
:-), and that's kinda minor anyway.

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 17:22:11 GMT
From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
> There are many movies with G&D scenes which I think few people
> would claim are G&D movies.  A good example is Indiana Jones & the
> Temple of Doom, with its scene of the priest ripping out the
> heart.

My nomination for this category is "El Topo" (directed by
Jodorowski, I think) which is a veritable bloodbath. It's got far
more content than anything Lucberg have done. Not that I claim to
understand it. That would take more viewings than I think I could
cope with.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 08:53:47 PDT (Wednesday)
From: PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies

>In response to the inquiry about G&D movies, I think a distinction
>should be made between G&D movies (e.g. Friday 13th, Halloween,
>etc) and movies that happen to use G&D effects.  I think The Fly
>falls into the latter category.  It is a great film that people
>will enjoy for its story, characters, ideas, etc., not just the
>special effects.  It has a purpose besides merely disgusting the
>audience.  Admittedly, disgusting the audience seems to be one of
>its goals, but this disgust contributes to the movie.  It is not
>gratuitous gross-and-disgustingness, but G&Dness with a purpose
>besides simply being G&D.

I'm sorry but I totally disagree.  I had high hopes for this film
but when I heard about the G&D stuff I stayed away.  I was reading
Stephen Kings "Skeleton Crew" which has a transporter story in it
and it peeked my interest again and I just couldn't stay away.  I
think the only purpose of this film is to say "Hey, lets see how
gross we can get."  I don't mind gore if it has something to do with
the story, but here the plot and characterization was secondary to
the new and improved "state of the art G&D affects."  I thought Gene
Siskel said it best, "Why do they remake great films that can never
possibly be as great as the original.  Why don't they remake lousy
films with a good premise and improve on them."

Pete

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 11:14:31 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Jittlov news?

Has anyone seen the Peter Gabriel video for "Sledgehammer"?  I swear
Jittlov had something to do with it.  It is very Jittlovian.  I
can't explain it very well, so I won't try, but the stop action
animation is perfectly timed with the lip sync!  I think that means
that Peter Gabriel would have to repeat a line of lyrics dozens of
times so that they could get just the right frame to sync with the
music (meanwhile manipulating the animation objects, of course.)

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 08:51:16 edt
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic>
Subject: Re: Jittlov news?
Cc: hoptoad!farren@ru-caip.ARPA

I was puzzled in Atlanta by the announcement of a program item
called "The Forgery of Mike Jittlov's Autograph" scheduled for
presentation by Lisa Winters.  I couldn't make it, and I later heard
the item was cancelled.  Do you have any idea what it might have
been about?  Is there a new fanscandal brewing?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 02:21:30 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Jittlov News

In response to a query about a "Forged Jittlov Autograph" program
item at Worldcon, and also in response to *&*(&$# mailers
everywhere, I offer:

Re: The Forgery of Mike Jittlov's Autograph - this was a special
appearance by one of Jittlov's assistants; in this case, his
"Official Forger", Lisa Winters being the holder of this office.  I
now have a con badge which holds what appears to be a genuine
Jittlovian signature, actually produced by Ms. Winters while I
watched.  No scandal, I think...

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 86 01:44:55 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Cartoon movie title request

This is an old one, probably out in the mid sixties.  I don't
remember the exact plot, but here are a few tidbits:

A scientist discovers new planet, thousands of light years away.  He
discovered it by turning up the magnification a million times (or
some ridiculously high number).  He, a boy and his sentient pet (a
dog, I think) travel there to find the people are subjugated by a
race of robots.  These people do not appear entirely human, and look
rather plastic.  Their princess is held hostage, which prevents the
people from rebelling.  For some crazy reason water is unknown to
the inhabitants.  Water will damage the countryside, and also
destroy the robots.  The scientist and boy create water cannons to
defeat the robots.  For some reason, I also think of helicopters or
some things that whirled like a helicopters.  In the end, the boy
rescues the princess after she has had water poured on her, and is
apparently near death.  It turns out that the people had some sort
of protective shell and the water destroys it.  The people are
really humans inside.  A cold dawn wind blows.  The end.

Well, any clues?  I believe that the animation was either French or
Japanese, but it's been so long that it's a bit hazy.  It was
definitely not American animation.  I seem to remember that body
motion was limited to flexing at the waist (ie, cheap).  If you know
this film, have you seen it recently?  Is it rentable?

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 22:22:11 GMT
From: savax!dove@caip.rutgers.edu (dove)
Subject: Name of a Sinbad movie?

I recall as a child seeing a Sinbad movie in which there is a
magician who has placed his heart at the top of a well defended
tower, and who therefore cannot be killed.  Part of the movie
involves Sinbad attempting to mount the tower and kill the heart of
the magician.

Can anyone who knows the Title of this movie mail it to me at:

...!decvax!savax!dove

Thank you

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 19:35:21 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim )
Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie?

dove@savax.UUCP (dove) writes:
>I recall as a child seeing a Sinbad movie in which there is a
>magician who has placed his heart at the top of a well defended
>tower, and who therefore cannot be killed.  Part of the movie
>involves Sinbad attempting to mount the tower and kill the heart of
>the magician.

I believe this was the first, and in my opinion, the best, Ray
Harryhausen Sinbad Movie "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad".  This film
dates from the late '50's.

The basic plot involved Sinbad's betrothed being reduced to about
three inches high and the attempt to have her restored to her
original size.  I forget exactly why the magician did this but I
think it had something to do with getting Sinbad to obtain something
the magician needed in order to extend his powers.

Monsters in this movie included a giant Cyclops, a giant two-headed
bird (a Roc), and a dragon which the magician kept chained at the
entrance to his workshop in order to discourage intruders.  There
was also a magic lamp with a genie who was a young boy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 15:05:33 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Movies

Barbara Eden was in the original movie VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE
SEA.  She played Admiral Nelson's (Walter Pidgeon) secretary, who
was also Lee Crane's (Robert Sterling) fiancee.  The cast also
included Peter Lorre (a top scientist), Joan Fontaine (ditto),
Michael Ansara (born-again inciter to mutiny), and Frankie Avalon,
who played the horn and sang the insipid title tune, as well as
several plastic sharks and octopuses.  The "plot" concerns the Van
Allen belt catching on fire (Lorre: "It's theoretically possible.").
A typical Irwin Allen chewing gum production, with the Seaview and
Nelson saving us all in the end.

Speaking of submarine movies, two others come to mind after the
recent discussion:

OPERATION PACIFIC, with John Wayne and Patricia Neal (look for
William Campbell and Martin Milner in the ship's crew), in which
Duke, when his torpedoes fail him, rams an enemy ship with his
submarine (without disabling it!)  and

THE BEDFORD INCIDENT, with Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier (also
Wally Cox and Donald Sutherland), in which Widmark's U.S. Navy ship
chases Russian subs around in order to provoke a confrontation.

******SPOILER ALERT !!!******

At the end of the movie, a Russian sub launches some nuclear
missiles, and the implication is that Widmark, who was acting
without authority, has managed to start WWIII.

******END SPOILER ALERT******

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Sep 86 12:42:39-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: SciFi Movies on Video

>from: Alastair Milne
>> Firefox  (Clint Eastwood as a Russian? hard to believe)
>  Don't. Eastwood does not play a Russian. He plays a US pilot...

The commentary here was meant as a joke. As far as his ability to
speak Russian fluently (in the movie), the accentuation was pure
Rowdy Yates.

>>Doctor Who: Revenge of the Cybermen
> ...Why, from more than 20 years of continuous production, do you
  choose this particular Doctor Who? ...

Again, I would like to say that the lists I am providing are of
films available on video tape.  I certainly DO NOT choose what the
studios decide to release.

Also...I think _Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_ is more adventure than
science fiction but it is rather hard to define the grey areas
between SF, fantasy, horror and adventure.

Walter Chapman

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Sep 86 11:18:32-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Video Movie Rating Scheme

Re: The list of movies I posted.  I realize that the original
request was for recommended movies but as I mentioned quality exists
with the individual.  Since the question still exists on what are
recommended films what I am offering to do is to compile a ratings
scheme based on viewer response.  If you have seen any of the films
I have listed then rate the film from 1 to 5 with 5 being "must see"
and 1 as "skip it".  I will from time-to-time post the latest
(average) rating score.  I am still compiling more film listings and
will publish them soon.  Respond to: CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Sep 86 11:18:25-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Movies on Video, Part IV

Here are a couple of more movies on video tape (or soon to be
released):

  Aliens are Coming, The

  Death Ray 2000
  Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. (w/Peter Cushing...just the old
    _Dr._Who_and_the_Daleks_ repackaged and renamed -- avail
      10/23/86)

  Girl from Starship Venus  (R-rated, prob German/Swedish T & A)
  Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster
 (Godzilla): Son of Godzilla
 (Godzilla): Terror of MechaGodzilla
  Ghidrah the 3-Headed Monster

  Highlander  (avail 10/23/86)

  It Came from Beneath the Sea

  Mothra

  Vindicator, The

 << Adult Films with SF Themes: >>

     Ms. Magnificent (orignally titled _Superwoman_ but legal
        problems forced the change: "stars" Desiree Cousteau)
     Return to Alpha Blue
     Satisfiers of Alpha Blue
     Star Virgin

Thanks to you contributors out there.  I believe this pretty well
exhausts the list but if more show up I'll post them.

Walter Chapman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Sep 86 1544-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #300
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1544-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #300
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 300

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 00:57:39 GMT
From: chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a fundamentalist
>inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites.  Heinlein
>was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated
>outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country".  Go back
>and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant you,
>it's hard to believe).  He then went on to say that it had "turned
>the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net effect
>would be to "improve the breed".  Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in
>passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that
>nuclear war would be a wonderful thing!

Mr. Maroney, are you capable of making the distinction between a
fictional character and the real person (actor or author) behind
that character?  Granted, in many cases the character will reflect
the artist and his/her views, but this is NOT a "given".

>I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you
>simply must face facts.  The book says what I quoted it as saying,
>not what you would like it to have said.  And "Pie in the Sky" is
>even more unambiguous: "There are so many, many things in this
>so-termed civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by
>a once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment."  You can twist and
>turn and try to divert the issue into long lists of irrelevant
>Heinlein statements on other matters (which you did, and which I
>have omitted), but these are the things he said, and you can't
>change that by wishing it away.

Are you denying that there are bad things about our culture?
Logically, a nuclear holocaust would remove those "bad things" by
removing the culture.  That it might also create worse things is
beside the point.  That the process is abhorrent is beside the
point.  The issue is that it would do the job.

>Moorcock's essay "Starship Stormtroopers", which you can get in the
>collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the
>fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar
>phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their
>views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this.  While
>Moorcock makes no broad conclusions about the reasons for this, I
>would speculate that it has to do with two chief factors.

You seem to have the same attitude toward Mr. Moorcock as you accuse
Mr.  Berch (and will doubtless accuse me, too) of having toward Mr.
Heinlein: that his words are gospel and therefore not subject to
question or discussion.

>First, we all started reading Heinlein at around age ten or
>earlier, before the development of a real critical faculty.  Ideas
>firmly implanted at this age are very hard to dislodge later, as
>every organized religion knows.  (For me, the break with Heinlein
>was when, at sixteen or so, I tried to re-read "Starship Troopers",
>which I had liked at twelve, and found it to be perhaps the most
>appalling book I had ever read.)  Second, science fiction readers
>have a sort of siege mentality, reinforced through imbecilic
>articles in Harper's and so forth on how awful the field is; and
>this creates a predilection to view criticism of those authors
>generally viewed as the bright lights of the field as an attack on
>the field itself, and to respond to this perceived attack
>viscerally.

Oh, how I love paternalism and holier-than-thou attitudes..  "Well
_I_ can make the distinction between <this> and <that>, but we
should protect those poor, innocent, uneducated folk who can't..."
Bullshit.

Do you happen to know Mr. Berch?  I do.  Mr. Berch is a (ex? You'll
have to ask him) legal type.  He seems to cringe at illogical,
emotion-based arguments.  His relatively rare postings tend to be
reflect his legal background, in that they are invariably
articulate, well thought out, well ordered, and well argued.  Even
if I don't agree with him, I have nothing but respect for his
postings.  Which is more than I can say for some people.

I don't see the quotes from RAH's stories as an endorsement of
nuclear war.  I _do_ see them as a comment that such an occurrence
is not strictly negative, which is something vastly different.  I
see these comments as a different expression of the same theme found
in many of his other books: that the human race _AS A WHOLE_
(despite grave hardships to individuals and societies) will benefit
from an exodus to space, or some other method of large-scale genetic
selection.  I don't necessarily agree with either the practicality
or desireability of this theme, but he argues it well, and is as
certainly entitled to his opinion as anyone else.

On a slow burn,

Brent Chapman
chapman@cory.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!cory!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 22:47:38 GMT
From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi)
Subject: Pie From the Sky

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving
>Heinlein's support for nuclear war.  These are taken from "Ghastly
>Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science
>fiction excerpts.
>
>First, from "Pie in the Sky":
>       There are so many, many things in this so-termed
>       civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a
>       once over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment.

Allow me to restore some missing context.

      Since we have every reason to expect a sudden rain of death
   from the sky sometime in the next few years... it behooves the
   Pollyanna Philosopher to add up the advantages to be derived from
   the blasting of your apartment, row house, or suburban cottage.

      It ain't all bad, chum.  While you are squatting in front of
   your cave, trying to roast a rabbit with one hand while
   scratching your lice infested hide with the other, there will be
   many cheerful things to think about...

      There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization
   of ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly
   of the Hiroshima treatment.  There is that dame upstairs, for
   instance, the one with the square bowling ball.  Never again
   would she take it out for practice right over your bed at three
   in the morning...
      [three pages of descriptions of civilization's aggravations
   omitted, often in spite of strong temptation]
      I don't mean to suggest that it will all be fun.  Keeping
   alive after our cities have been smashed and our government
   disintegrated will be a grim business at best...
      [about 3/4 page skipped]
      Of course, if you are so soft that you *like* innerspring
   mattresses and clean water and regular meals, despite the
   numerous advantages of blowing us off the map, but are not too
   soft to try to do something to avoid the coming debacle, there is
   something you can do about it, other than forming Survival
   Leagues or cultivating an attitude of philosophical
   resignation...

It should be clear that Heinlein was not advocating nuclear war in
his essay, Pie From the Sky.  As for whether he does so in Farnham's
Freehold, we must either reserve judgement, or go read the book, or
accept the word of somebody who has read the book recently enough to
remember enough details to judge by.

David Canzi

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 23:10:04 GMT
From: dartvax!derek@caip.rutgers.edu (Derek J. LeLash)
Subject: Heinlein (& Ellison)

While I have read very few of Heinlein's works, and did not
particularly care for the ones I did read, I feel I must come to his
defense in the current debate.  Mr. Maroney has taken excerpts from
some of Heinlein's *fiction* which express a rather unattractive
moral stance, and has taken them to represent, 100%, the beliefs of
the author (witness his repeated use of "Heinlein states...").  I
find this unacceptable, and give his argument little credence
because of it.  Now, if Heinlein had written a political essay
espousing these views.......

While we're on the subject of unjustified conclusion, I would also
like to take exception to a view of Harlan Ellison recently
presented on the net: to wit, "I hear he's a jerk, and therefore I
won't read any of his books."  (forgive paraphrasing).  While it's
true that most of what Ellison writes in introductions and essays
and such is done in an extremely petulant tone, which suggests the
existence of a chip on his shoulder the size of New Jersey, his
stories are among the best I know.  Try "I Have No Mouth And I Must
Scream," for starters.  Enough for now....discussion/disagreement
welcome.

Derek LeLash
derek@dartvax

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 12:47:19 GMT
From: duke!ndd@caip.rutgers.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>>  The fact that Heinlein's character (and I will allow that he
>>speaks with the authorial voice, as many of RAH's heroes do) dryly
>>notes some of the beneficial effects the war had compared with
>>previous wars hardly marks hims as being in FAVOR of a nuclear
>>war. I fear this passage, and the other one quoted, were a little
>>too subtle for Mr. Maroney.
>
>...inventing excuses for the slaughter of the Midianites.  Heinlein
>was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects; he stated
>outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country".  Go back
>and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant you,
>it's hard to believe).  He then went on to say that it had "turned
>the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net effect
>would be to "improve the breed".  Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in
>passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that
>nuclear war would be a wonderful thing!

I thought that Mr. Berch's point was that we don't know that
Heinlein believes this. Nothing that Mr. Maroney has said really
speaks to that question. Instead of sniping at each other, perhaps
we could find a way to prove one of these positions, or admit that a
writer's actual beliefs are not always obvious from his writing.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 16:04:34 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> he stated outright that the nuclear war was "good for the
> country".  Go back and check the quote if you don't believe me

OK.  Let's do.

      He frowned.  "Barbara, I'm not as sad over what has happened
      as you are.  It might be be good for us.  I don't mean us six;
      I mean our country."

Hardly saying that "nuclear war is good for the country".  He's sad,
but not as sad as Barbara.  It *MIGHT* be good (but he does *not*
say outright that he thinks it is a net benefit).  In fact, he
equivocates quite a bit during the course of your quote:

       might be ... seems to me ... may have ... may be ... not
       every case ... it is cruel

Also note that "he" is a character, and not unambiguously mouthing
Heinlein's thoughts.  Add to that the fact that he is trying to find
silver linings to cheer up "Barbara", and the fact that the rest of
the story proves him wrong in no uncertain terms, and...  what was
that you were saying about "proof"?

> Moorcock's essay "Starship Stormtroopers", which you can get in
> the collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the
> fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar
> phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their
> views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this.  While
> Moorcock makes no broad conclusions about the reasons for this, I
> would speculate that it has to do with two chief factors.

Well, I think Moorcock's (and, apparently, your) opinion of Heinlein
have to do with three main factors. 1) Removing quotes from their
context, 2) mistaking what characters say for what those characters
beleive, and 3) (to a lesser extent) mistaking what those characters
(supposedly) believe for what Heinlein believes.

And I suppose I should make it clear that I'm not "supporting
Heinlein".  I'm simply offering criticism of a particularly silly
argument against him.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 05:20:40 GMT
From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

   No, "Hugh Farnham" stated it. And he said "might be", not "was".
And, yes, I know that HF is one of Heinlein's "mouthpiece"
characters. But a mouthpiece is not necessarily a parrot. HF is a
character in a book where the war has already happened. Moreover,
it's naive to think the protagonists always speak for the author,
and especially so when it's an author whose business is speculations
on politics and sociology, as well as physics. Why do the
protagonists of STARSHIP TROOPERS like elected government with the
franchise limited to vets, while those of GLORY ROAD believe in
monarchy, those in DOUBLE STAR believe in constitutional monarchy,
and those of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS are rational anarchists?
Could it have as much to do with the reality within the book as with
Heinlein's own precise opinions?
   FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD is one of the most pessimistic books that
Heinlein (normally an optimist; maybe *that's* why he's popular,
Tim) ever wrote, and Farnham is one of his least likeable
protagonists. And one way to read it is to see it as showing Farnham
was wrong. Heinlein shows us a *very* unpleasant far future (people
raised for food, ala Wells' TIME MACHINE) coming out of the nuclear
holocaust. Not the way *I'd* write it, if my purpose were to show
the advantages of nuclear war.
   Rather than looking at Heinlein through the murky medium of
fiction, let's look at a bit of his non-fiction. You chose to quote
his non-fiction essay, "Pie From The Sky", in attempting to support
your point:

>"There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of
>ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the
>Hiroshima treatment."  You can twist and turn and try to divert the
>issue into long lists of irrelevant Heinlein statements on other
>matters (which you did, and which I have omitted), but these are
>the things he said, and you can't change that by wishing it away.

   I'll make the generous assumption that you saw this quote
somewhere, in isolation, and are yourself not intentionally quoting
out of context. Let's read on, to see what the "improvements" are
that Heinlein refers to: "There is that dame upstairs, for instance,
the one with the square bowling ball"; "No more soap operas"; "No
more alarm clocks"; etc. I doubt I need to clarify the concept of
"irony" to YOU, Tim :-). But if anyone else is perhaps uncertain,
let me add a quote from the close of "Pie From The Sky": "If you
really want to hang on to the advantages of our slightly wacky
pseudo-civilization, there is just one way to do it, according to
the scientists who know the most about the new techniques of war -
and that is to form a sovereign world authority to prevent the
Atomic War."
   Heinlein is a political maverick, and has opinions to irritate
almost anyone. Considering some of the consistent themes that run
through most of his fiction (elitism, iconoclasm, extreme
individualism), I don't think it should be necessary to jump on
isolated quotes or theorize unlikely opinions (have any of you
*ever* met someone who was in favor of nuclear war?) in order to
argue with him.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1611-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #301
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 301

Today's Topics:

              Television - Anderson & Blake's Seven &
                      Barbara Eden & Electrawoman &
                      Japanese Animation & Sapphire and Steel &
                      Science Fiction Theater (2 msgs) &
                      Star Trek (4 msgs) & Mr. Terrific &
                      Myth Makers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 16:39:26 GMT
From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson)

jrw@hropus.UUCP (Jim Webb) writes:
>Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they
>weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean.  I remember one
>about this family how lived on this island and had all these
>rockets and aircraft that were numbered.  One of them was this sort
>of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly.
>It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods
>under- neath.  Another rocket shot out from under their swimming
>pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past.  This show also had
>a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket fighter pilots, or
>was that another show?

This was (The?) _Thunderbirds_.  I remember this one a little better
than most because I saw a movie of the same one or two years back.
There was also a space station and a (six-wheeled?) car in the
arsenal, and the operators of the various units were brothers,
except for the car.  The car, as I recall, was pink and belonged to
a girl who was (I think) the sister.  The entire operation was
'Earth/Space Rescue' or 'Space Rescue'.  Also, I'm pretty sure that
they had toys based on this show, because I have a very vague memory
of owning a toy pink car.  All of the above should be considered to
be even more heavily qualified than it already is...

Scott Hazen Mueller
City of Turlock
901 South Walnut Avenue
Turlock, CA 95380
lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev
work:  (209) 668-5590 or 5628
home:  (209) 527-1203

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 13:05:41 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven

>     My local public television station just started showing
> Blake's Seven.  What I've seen so far doesn't answer the big
> questions like : Who is Blake?  Why is he running?  Who is he
> running from? ...

Did you miss the first episode -- "The Way Back"?

"Blake's 7" was originally produced from 1978 - 1981 by the BBC as
"adult" televiewing in contrast to "Doctor Who" which is considered
"family" televiewing.  There were 52 episodes made over the four
years that the show was on the air.

The basic premise has been described as "The Dirty Dozen," or "Robin
Hood" in space.  Set in the reasonably far future, most of the known
universe is ruled by the evil, bureaucratic, corrupt Federation.
Roj Blake is a resistance fighter who was caught, brainwashed, and
turned loose as a "reformed" citizen.  Some other resistance
fighters find him, get him off the drugged food and water (a common
control method used by the Federation) and try to revive his memory.
They are caught and slaughtered, and Blake, his memory now restored,
is found to be unprogrammable.  Unwilling to make him a martyr, the
Federation trumps up charges of child molesting against him,
convicts him, and sends him off in a prison ship for the prison
planet Cygnus Alpha.

Blake refuses to give in, and, over the next two episodes, manages
to persuade some of the other criminals (yes, they really are
criminals) on board to join him and escape.  They take over an
"alien" vessel found drifting in space, call it the Liberator and
set out on their adventures.  The cast of characters grows, shrinks,
and changes throughout the series.

A warning: this is NOT kiddie viewing.  Our heros do not always win;
they often disagree with and sometimes don't even like each other.
Not everyone survives, (you will NOT see everyone listed above in
ANY episode), and death is not pleasant.  Common to almost every
episode is a strong sense of wit and a gritty realism.  There are
some marvelous lines (at least one in every episode) and the
characters are very well drawn and mostly credible.  The characters
do change and develop as the series goes on and that change reflects
the fact that they are always hunted, never safe.  In many respects
this is more like a 52-episode miniseries in the way that it deals
with its characters.  Although the final episode "Blake" appears to
have an absolute finality as far as the characters' return, it is,
upon close examination, open to reexamination and a renewal of the
series.

>       Also does anyone know whether the show is still being
> produced or if all I'm seeing are old reruns.

Production did stop in 1981, **BUT** Terry Nation -- the creator,
who still has the rights to the show -- says that if it goes over
well in America there will be more episodes.

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 07:44:28 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

>Barbara Eden played Jeannie.  I think she was also in the George
>Pal version of _The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao_.  I can't think of
>anything else related to SF that she's been in at the moment.

Eden has been a regular is science fiction and fantasy.  Your
question brought to mind that she was in the film VOYAGE TO THE
BOTTOM OF THE SEA, but also prompted me to look up and see what else
she had been in.

VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA
WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM
FIVE WEEKS IN A BALLOON
THE BRASS BOTTLE (with Burl Ives playing the genie this time)
THE 7 FACES OF DR. LAO
INTRUDER WITHIN
(others?)

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri 12 Sep 86 09:47:06-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: TV Shows (Electrawoman)

Yes, Diedre Hall played Electrawoman in this show and the ever cute
Judy Strangis (formerly of Room 222 and television commercials)
played Dynagirl.  Is Judy Strangis still working in television?

Walter Chapman

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 86 04:05:16 GMT
From: ukecc!fitz@caip.rutgers.edu (Catherine Ariel Wolffe)
Subject: Re: GIGANTOR

smdev@csustan.UUCP (Scott Hazen Mueller) writes:
>I can't give a definitive answer, since I'm a snob when it comes to
>cartoon animation (if it was made for television, it stinks :-)).
>However, as I recall, shows that I have _known_ to be japanese in
>origin tend to have characters with very large, round eyes.  I tend
>to take this to be a characteristic of japanese animation...and, as
>far as I can remember, Speed Racer (and the other characters in
>that show) had very large, round eyes.
>
>I tend to wonder if these eyes have anything to do with the racial
>differences in eye shape?

    The shape of the eye is more a matter of style than a matter of
racial differences. In Japanese animation, the eye is used most for
showing emotion.  If a character is going to cry, the eyes quiver,
and tears are seen forming.  When a character gets angry, the eyes
narrow and glints are strategicly placed on the eye. American,
British, and French animation (I am only conversant of these styles)
do not exploit the eye to this extent. A good example of the various
styles of animated characters is Rankin-Bass' _The Last Unicorn_.
All of the character but the Unicorn and the Lady Amalthea are
standard R-B caricatures. The two forementioned characters are
done in Japanese style. The expressions are quite different,
noticably so.

Catherine Ariel Wolffe

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 11:16:05 GMT
From: grafton@idec.stc.co.uk (S. Grafton)
Subject: Re: SF on TV

Does anyone out there remember Saphire and Steel?  It was dead good
stuff.  I'm still waiting for the re-run.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 17:21:35 GMT
From: houligan!bseymour@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: SF Theatre, Just the facts mam

Since several have asked, speculated, or otherwise commented on
Science Fiction Theatre I thought the following would be of
interest.

SFT was broadcast from 1955-1957, in syndication only, the first
episode being available April 1955. There were 78 episodes produced.
The narrator was Truman Bradley, the producer Ivan Tors (you've
heard of him).

The above info came from the 3rd Edition of "The Complete Directory
to Prime Time Network TV Shows - 1946 to Present". It's available at
any good mall bookstore. Highly recommended as it has an index of
actors/actresses. Real good for those head scratching questions like
"Didn't he used to be in another show"? It also has lots of good
reference sections such as prime time schedules for every year, and
I think the Emmy award winners, and a list of the longest running
series.

Another book no-one interested in this discussion should be without
is "Movies on TV" by Steve Scheuer. It has brief (TV listing type)
reviews of thousands of movies. Good for reference, trivia, or just
to look through. (Other similar books are available, Leonard Maltin
has a similar one for example, I recomended the Scheuer one because
that's what I have)

Burch Seymour
Gould C.S.D.
....mcnc!rti-sel!gould!bseymour

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 08:06:16 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: old TV show

>Does anyone remember a weekly show called "Science Fiction Theater"?

I even remember some of the original broadcasts of SFT.  It was a
syndicated show.  One of my references said it ran in 1956 and was a
close relative to ONE STEP BEYOND.  I remember several of the
episodes, not great by today's standards but it was once the only
game in town.  Its ideas showed up many times later.  It had a
story about a bionic man ("The four minute mile... and no strain!"),
the lava story you mention, there was one about astronomers who meet
a strange man who gives them a photo of the solar system taken from
outside; there was one about an immortal man, that sort of thing.  I
am told that the film TARANTULA was a remake of their story "No Food
for Thought"

When I think of the old science fiction programs, I remember things
nobody has mentioned.  How about COMMANDO CODY?  CAPTAIN MIDNIGHT
(later JET JACKSON -- in reruns in which they dubbed over the name)?
FLASH GORDON with Steve Holland?  THE MAN AND THE CHALLANGE?  WAY
OUT?  WORLD OF GIANTS?  (I said WORLD OF...  not LAND OF THE...)
Anyone out there remember any of those???  (Oh, the people who have
been talking about MAN INTO SPACE, that was the Disney cartoon
documentary.  The TV series you mean was MEN INTO SPACE.)

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 19:32:31 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: century of STAR TREK

If you remember the beginning of Wrath of Khan, there is a blurb
saying "In the 23rd century..." or some such. This fits the
established chronology (well, published in TREK magazine), but I
like the 22nd century idea better.  Does anybody remember when Kirk
said that poem he quoted in "City on the Edge of Forever" was
written? I think that he said it was written "in 100 years," but I
don't remember. This would give us a lower limit on the dates...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 09:46:25 edt
From: jl42@andrew.cmu.edu (Jay Mathew Libove)
Subject: Star Trek episode: Space Nazis??

Towards the top of SF-LOVERS Digest V11 #273 there is a comment on a
new set of Star Trek TV show videos coming out soon (as follows:)

>For those that are interested, another set of ST TV show videos
>will be coming out in October. Among those released will be
>_Tribbles_, Gamesters of Triskelion_, _Piece of the Action_, and
>"Space Nazis".

Could someone tell me what Space Nazis is in reference to? I don't
remember any such episode.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 21:08:32 GMT
From: ut-ngp!mentat@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: Re: Star Trek episode: Space Nazis??

From: jl42@andrew.cmu.edu (Jay Mathew Libove)
> Could someone tell me what Space Nazis is in reference to? I don't
> remember any such episode.

The episode you're thinking of is probably "Patterns of Force."
Kirk and his gang go to check up on his old mentor, a sociologist
who's been instructed to "monitor" an up-and-coming planet.  Turns
out, he INTERFERED, and how.  He elected himself as Fuhrer and
turned the planet into a into a clone of Nazi Germany.  Turns out
there's another planet in the system, which is peace-loving, etc.,
and the Nazis want to remove it from existence.  Kirk and Spock join
up with guerillas sent by the peace-lovers to try to remove his
friend from power.  Turns out his friend wanted to create a
*peaceful* Nazi Germany, based upon Nazi Germany's militarism (!).
He messed up in choosing his right-hand man, however, who doped him
up and used him as a figurehead, while advancing his own evil
philosophies.

Patterns of Force suffered a lot with all the other "Earth analogy"
episodes, such as "The Omega Glory," "The Last Gunfight," etc.  It
just wasn't too original.  Self-indulgent fantasizing.

Incidentally, is the release for "Patterns of Force" ACTUALLY "Space
Nazis"?

Robert Dorsett
Dept. of Astronomy
University of Texas at Austin
ARPA: mentat@ngp.cc.utexas.edu
      user%walt@ngp.utexas.edu
UUCP: mentat@ut-ngp.UUCP
      {ihnp4,seismo,sally}!ngp!mentat@walt

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 12:43:10 GMT
From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN)
Subject: Re: Star Trek episode: Space Nazis??

The name of the episode was "Patterns of Force".  The man left
behind on a previous mission was Dr. John Gill, an academy
SOCIOLOGIST, one of Kirks teachers at SFA.  He was left behind to
observe and got a little carried away.

The episode (as many in the series) had hidden meaning and message
-- although this one wasn't too smooth.  The scapegoats were the
Zeons, a direct reference to the scapegoats of WWII, the Jews
(Zion).  This wasn't the worst done bit of symbolism done in the
series, viz Yangs and Coms in the old glory episode.

B.C.Kohn

[Moderator's Notes:  Thanks also to the following people who
submitted the same or similar information:

Mordecai Golin (princeton!mjg@caip.rutgers.edu)
Phil Paone (paone@topaz.rutgers.edu)
griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU
]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 12:51:07 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
To: sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu

A Scientist both wise and bold
Set out to cure the common cold.
Instead he found this power pill
"which", he said, "most certainly will
Turn a lamb into a lion
Like an eagle he'll be flyin',
Solid steel will be like putty,
It'll work on Anybody!"

But then 'twas found this potent pill
Made the strongest men quite ill
And so the secret search began
To find the one and only man.

What they found made them squeamish,
For only Stanley Beamish,
A weak and droopy (?) daffodil
Could take the special power pill
That sent him soaring through the skies
Fighting foes and fighting spies.

When he took the pill specific
It made him the most prolific,
Terrific...
MR. TERRIFIC!

Yes, that was a fun TV show.  No redeeming qualities, but fun.  It
beat Star Trek in the ratings that year.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 23:33:14 EDT
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Myth Makers series...

Does anyone have ordering information for the American format "Myth
Makers" videotape series.  This series featured never-before-seen
interviews with the stars of Doctor Who.  Could a list of the stars
appearing in the MM series also be posted.  I remember reading that
Elisabeth Sladen (Sarah Jane Smith) was the subject of one of the
tapes and I am very interested in ordering a copy.  Thanks in
advance.

Stephen Pearl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1619-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #302
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 302

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkein (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 86 00:59:38 GMT
From: public@wheaton (Joe Public)
Subject: Re: Who was Tom Bombadil?

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>Tom is under no restriction but what he himself chooses.  He
>regards Sauron and his "tricks" as irrelevant.  Perhaps for an
>unrestricted Maia, the Ring presents no threat.
>
>Or you could be absolutely right: Tom could be a being much more
>powerful than Maiar, and unconcerned with their toys.

It's been a long while since I've brushed up on Tolkein Mythology,
so I may be all wet, but it seems to me this discussion has missed
two important points.  First of all, Sauron himself was a Maia,
corrupted into Melkor's service sometime after the entrance of the
Valar into the world to begin its preparation for the coming of the
Children of Iluvatar.
  Second, one comment I've not seen mentioned came from the lips of
Gandalf when at the Council of Elrond it was asked why the One Ring
was not given to Bombadil to hold.  Gandalf replied that such things
held no power over Bombadil's mind and thus his domain was not a
safe depository; even though nothing evil could find its way in, the
ring was likely to be forgotten and eventually find its way out.
And, said Gandalf, even should he retain the ring, yet the powers of
darkness would, after overwhelming all else, assail Bombadil himself
and Bombadil would fall, last even as he was first.
  Two points need to be made from this--first, Bombadil was "first".
(What the signigificance of that is I'll leave to others).  Second,
Sauron was more powerful than Bombadil (who, assuming Sauron was a
Maia, could not then be himself a Maia).

calvin richter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 19:37:16 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Origin of hobbits: query

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
>While there's no direct evidence that Illuvatar didn't create the
>Hobbits, consider the following.  Despite their similarities to
>men, Hobbits resemble Dwarves and Ents more in that they were much
>more interested in their own affairs than those of others, and that
>they faded and disappeared as men came to dominate the world....
>Manwe interceded with Illuvatar on Yavanna's behalf when she wished
>to create the Ents.  Might he not have also had the foresight to
>ask for yet another race of beings? If so, that would explain their
>similarities to the Dwarves and Ents.

   My impression is that Hobbits do not really need a special
origin. As I read the Introduction to LotR, the Hobbits are of the
same "type" as Men. That is, in modern terms, they were part of the
same species(Homo sapiens). That is they are more like the African
Pigmies in origin than like the Dwarves. This is certainly supported
by thier greater ability to get along with humans than with the
other races, and by thier mortality. They certainly show much
greater similarity to us psychologically than do either the Elves or
the Dwarves. So, no, I do not think they were made by the Valar.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 86 20:05:41 GMT
From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: TOLKEIN'S RIDDLE TO ENTER MORIA

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>I'd better read that piece again.  I thought Gandalf's original
>error was translating "say" as "speak", and that the correct
>translation was "Say friend and enter".  The distinction between
>the two words can be subtle.  I suppose it's even possible that the
>Sindarin dialect used in the inscription used the same word for
>both.

   You are right, the error was in fact a "mistranslation" of <pedo>
as 'speak' instead of 'say'. Also, as far as I can tell Sindarin in
general used this word for both "meanings". Or rather Sindarin
assigned up the various meanings refering to speach acts to words in
a different way than English. <Pedo>, and its Quenya cognate, seem
to refer to individual, "atomic" instances of speach. Another word,
perhaps <peno>, is used to refer to continued or protracted speach.
This rather corresponds to the Perfective vs.  Imperfective stems in
Russian. Thus he did not really mistranslate it, rather he failed to
properly identify it as a transitive usage as opposed to an
intransitive one.

Stanley Friesen
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 19:44:13 GMT
From: utai!gkloker@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Loker)
Subject: C.S. Lewis & Tolkein (was Re: Re: Lest We Forget)

hoffman@hdsvx1.UUCP (Richard Hoffman) writes:
>. . . C.S. Lewis ... was also a close friend of J.R.R. Tolkein.
>
>I have always suspected that Tolkein shows up in Lewis' work as the
>professor in the Narnia stories, and as Ransom in _Out of the
>Silent Planet_.  Anyone know is there is any truth to this?

Accoriding to "The Inklings" (I think) by Humphrey Carpenter, this
just isn't so.  Tolkein & Lewis were good friends, both were
university professors, and they both belonged to a loose-knit
organization called the "Inklings" (hence the title of the book)
that was devoted to discussions of almost anything, including the
literary efforts of members.  (Incidentally, Charles Williams was
also a member of the group.)  There is little doubt that they had an
influence on each others work, but Lewis apparently stated that the
person he had based Ransom on was not Tolkein.  I can't recall who
it was based on, and my copy of "The Inklings" is buried away right
now, but I think that the name was Dyson(?).

Geoff Loker
Department of Computer Science
University of Toronto
Toronto, ON
M5S 1A4
USENET: {ihnp4 decwrl utzoo uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!gkloker
CSNET:  gkloker%utai@toronto.csnet
ARPANET:gkloker@ai.toronto.edu
CDNNET: gkloker@ai.toronto.cdn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Sep 86 14:56:28 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Ents

I don't remember the exact passage, but it seems to me that Yavanna
did not create the Ents, but rather heard them in the Song of
Iluvatar. Anybody remember this?

Garrett Fitzgerald
st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 19:29:08 GMT
From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: A Flighty Ring Question

Well, here's a LOTR question that comes from a friend of mine, a
fellow devoted Tolkein fan, who doesn't have a login, but would like
to ask your opinions:

Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist
Gwaihir and the eagles from the start?  They were certainly able and
willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo.  Why not send
Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire?  (Perhaps with the
other eagles to fly in as a diversion.)

(Aside from the obvious answer that there would be no story if that
were done, of course.  We are looking for an *internal* reason.)

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 86 14:58:55 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Re: Origins of Hobbits.

context@uw-june (Ronald Blanford) writes:
> Manwe interceded with Illuvatar on Yavanna's behalf when she
> wished to create the Ents.  Might he not have also had the
> foresight to ask for yet another race of beings? ...

 This bears some resemblance to a wholly madeup (I believe) origin
of Hobbits a friend of mine put forth when we were in college
(rather a long time ago).  She was a DM, and she had created what we
called a 'Special' for several hobbit characters that were being run
- in effect a special adventure or quest for them.  It was concerned
with the origins of the hobbits, and was rather entertaining (Claire
could run a mean dungeon, she sure could!), as was the "Answer" she
came up with.

 In brief (because I only remember a little bit of it - it WAS a
long time ago): Yavanna had grown dissatisfied with the ability of
the Ents to carry out their duties - care of the her forests and
green things - in the face of the increasing numbers of the
fast-lived and fast-moving men.  They just weren't able to cope, in
the short run, with the actions and motivations of such hasty
creatures.  So, she petitioned for another race better equipped to
deal with men.  But, having been granted a rather unusual request
for such a thing once, Illuvatar wasn't about to let her do it again
- a person might get ideas, after all.  So, a compromise was
reached.  Ents weren't able to fulfill their designated rolls in the
face of the advancement of Man, so the Entwives were taken away, and
from them came the first Hobbits - i.e. the Hobbits ARE the Entwives
(some of them, at least).

 Again, this is pure theory, and rather fanciful, too.  But, as a
solution, it has its neat points.  Also, it might explain why
Treebeard was able to respond so quickly to Merry and Pippin, eh?

John White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 16:33:56 GMT
From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes:
>Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist
>Gwaihir and the eagles from the start?  They were certainly able
>and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo.  Why not
>send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire?

What chance do you think Gwaihir would have had against nine fully
empowered Nazgul?  Remember, by the time the eagles picked up Sam
and Frodo, the Ring was in Orodruin and the Barad Dur had fallen,
taking Sauron and the Nazgul with it.

Matt Landau
BBN Laboratories, Inc.
10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238
(617) 497-2429
mlandau@diamond.bbn.com
harvard!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 04:41:13 GMT
From: epimass!jbuck@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes:
>Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist
>Gwaihir and the eagles from the start?  They were certainly able
>and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo.  Why not
>send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire?  (Perhaps with
>the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.)

At that point in the story, Sauron's power and that of the wraiths
had been destroyed, and his troops were in disarray and fighting
each other.  The only danger Frodo and Sam were in was from
starvation, exhaustion, and thirst.  I would think that at an
earlier point, Sauron and the Nazgul could have wiped up the eagles
with ease.  The only thing the eagles had to do at the end was to
fly in, pick up two small passengers, and leave.  Not even any
anti-aircraft fire.  :-)

Joe Buck
{hplabs,fortune}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck
nsc!csi!epimass!jbuck
Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 17:54:32 GMT
From: netxcom!ewiles@caip.rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes:
>Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist
>Gwaihir and the eagles from the start?  They were certainly able
>and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo.  Why not
>send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire?  (Perhaps with
>the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.)

Before the ring is destroyed Sauron had entirely too much power for
such a bold (foolhardy?) and obvious attempt.  It was much more
likely that a small group traveling quietly and silently would
succeed.  After the ring was destroyed, much (all?) of Sauron's
power would have been destroyed too, so it was reasonably safe to
fly in.

Edwin Wiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 14:27:24 GMT
From: unc!melnick@caip.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: A Flighty Ring Question

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes:
>Why wouldn't the best solution to the ring problem be to enlist
>Gwaihir and the eagles from the start?  They were certainly able
>and willing to fly into Mordor at the end to rescue Frodo.  Why not
>send Gwaihir with the ring to drop it in the fire?  (Perhaps with
>the other eagles to fly in as a diversion.)

If the Eagles had flown into Mordor's airspace with the Ring, I
suspect the Nazgul (who certainly could track the Ring) would have
had no difficulty at all finding the Ringbearer (Gwaihir or
whoever); and in a dogfight between the Nazgul and a squadron of
Eagles, I'd put my money on the Nazgul.

Then again, if enough Eagles were thrown into the battle, and if
enough of a diversion could be mounted elsewhere, it *might* stand a
chance, but not much of one.

Sorry.
Alex

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 13:48:35 pdt
From: Mark Redican <vallejo!mark@sri-tsc.arpa>
Subject: Gandalf, Frodo, and the Ring

     I just started reading LOTR again (for the nth time), and I
came across something, on page 94 of TFOTR, that made me curious
enough to seek comments on the net.  In this section of the book,
Gandalf has returned to Bag End to make a final determination as to
whether Frodo's ring is indeed the One.  Gandalf tells Frodo some of
the history of the Ring, Frodo gets pretty upset about his present
situation, and says things like "Why me?"  He also says to Gandalf
something like "Why didn't you tell me about this earlier so I could
have destroyed the Ring or thrown it away (before the Enemy
discovered the Shire and learned the name Baggins)?"
     Gandalf then says something like "Go ahead and try to destroy
it Frodo, throw it back into your fire."  Frodo makes a serious
effort to cast the Ring into the fire, but he finds he cannot.
Almost without realizing it, Frodo puts the Ring into his pocket
instead of into the fire.

     My question is: How could Gandalf expect Frodo to cast the Ring
into the Cracks of Doom under Orodruin in the Land of Mordor, if he
couldn't even do it in his own living room?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1634-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #303
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 303

Today's Topics:

       Miscellaneous - Japanese Films and Animation (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 21:50:18 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

> I wonder if anybody ever picked up on the anti-Americanism in
> Godzilla-type movies? Just think about it for awhile... a huge,
> ugly monster comes crashing in from the west, and reduces Tokyo to
> rubble with flames and brute force... remember the fire bombings,
> etc.?

I don't believe it is anti-American.  It is almost certainly
anti-nuke.  Japan is the only country to ever be nuked.  The
appearance of terrifyingly powerful natural forces that unleash
incredible devastation upon their country almost seems like a
natural national fear or national archetype (if you will) to
develop.

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 03:26:51 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

> I don't believe it is anti-American.  It is almost certainly
> anti-nuke.  Japan is the only country to ever be nuked.  The
> appearance of terrifyingly powerful natural forces that unleash
> incredible devastation upon their country alomst seems like a
> natural national fear or national archetype (if you will) to
> develop.

I should correct myself.  The Japanese have been putting up with
natural disasters for a long time.  Everything from earthquakes,
tidal waves, volcanoes and typhoons.  So these movies may not be
anti-nuke alone (if at all).

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 16:52:30 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

elg@usl.UUCP (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>I suspect that the Japanese have cashed in on American racism by
>shipping us films which appeal to our own self-image as the
>"superior race" and laughing all the way to the bank.

Except I think the movies you're referring to were made for Japanese
kids.  They were shipped west because there was a market for them
over here.

>I wonder if anybody ever picked up on the anti-Americanism in
>Godzilla-type movies? Just think about it for awhile... a huge,
>ugly monster comes crashing in from the west, and reduces Tokyo to
>rubble with flames and brute force... remember the fire bombings,
>etc.?

Hmmm.  Except Godzilla became a hero in later sequels... and one of
the (human) heros in the very first movie was American.  (A certain
Mr. Burr of Perry Mason fame, remember?)

I still think you guys are way off the track.  Take in account that
these movies look different from an American perspective.  We tend
to think of the heros as Western and the bad guys as whomever we've
fought lately.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 15:34:11 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>Except I think the movies you're referring to were made for
>Japanese kids.  They were shipped west because there was a market
>for them over here.

Worse than that: they were made for the adults.  Anyone out there
watch STAR BLAZERS?  In the last movie (FINAL YAMATO), there's a sex
scene at the end that'd blush even these cheeks.  The kids in Japan
aren't ALLOWED to watch the cartoons.

>Hmmm.  Except Godzilla became a hero in later sequels... and one of
>the (human) heros in the very first movie was American.  (A certain
>Mr. Burr of Perry Mason fame, remember?)

Actually, no.  Burr was shot and edited in after the original movie
was made.  (Did a pretty good job of inserting him, too.  You can
hardly tell.)  BTW, they were ALL heroes at one time or another.

I agree witth M. Zarifes (sp?), that it was an anti-nuke movie.
Certainly the new one (GODZILLA 1985) was advertised by the Japanese
as one.  Also, Godzilla was created by a nuke, and nukes seem to
make him only stronger.

>I still think you guys are way off the track.  Take in account that
>these movies look different from an American perspective.  We tend
>to think of the heros as Western and the bad guys as whomever we've
>fought lately.

Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE
Western.  In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the ones
that aren't exported to the U.S.  OK, try this:

(Show)            (U.S. title)          (Place)
Urashamon (sp?)   Future police         Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco)
Gatchamon         G-Force               New San Fransisco
Macross           Robotech              A U.S.-held Pacific Is.

I also think that YAMATO's base was in S.F.  (Kinda stilted view of
the U.S., huh?  I guess that from Japan, the biggest U.S. city is
S.F.  I guess the proximity makes for an appearance of SIZE! ;-)

kaufman@orion.arpa
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 86 09:54:41 edt
From: ao06@andrew.cmu.edu (Ayami Ogura)
Subject: re:  Macross character portrayals

I think it was mentioned in another post that the short, fat,
balding, "Japanese" types are used mainly for comic relief, and I
agree with that.  But there are other factors as well, I think.

First, Macross, as well as Star Blazers, Captain Harlock, etc. were
made for a Japanese audience and they catered to Japanese taste and
nationalism.

In other words, although the hero/heroines looked like the western
stereotype of the hero/heroine, the characters themselves were
Japanese.  Rick Hunter, in the original Macross series, was a young
Japanese named Ichiro Hikaru.  The entire Star Blazers crew was of
Japanese descent, even "Nova" who is a blond.  And so on.  It's
always been standard in Japanese animation that the leading heros
and heroines be tall, thin, have different shades of hair other than
black, large eyes, etc. and I guess this is partly due to the fact
that the Japanese ideal of beauty is something they are typically
not, but also because they tend to be a "hip," trendy culture, and
the majority world view of beauty tends toward tall, thin, etc. etc.

There are exceptions to this "rule" if it can be called that.  The
series "Galaxy Express" has as its male hero, a short, not
particularly attractive boy.  He looks like a younger version of the
short, fat, balding types previously mentioned.  This occurrence has
a lot to do with the creator of the series, Leiji Matsumoto, who,
incidentally, also created Star Blazers, Captain Harlock, Queen of a
Thousand

Years, and numerous other take-offs and sequels.  I think Mastumoto
was one of the most successful if not influential artists in the
70's and early 80's; sort of the George Lucas of Japanese animation.

Anyway, it was one of his pet themes is that of the noble, ugly guy,
who maintains honor and justice in a world where the "beautiful
people" have forgotten such things.  "Doctor Sane" of Star Blazers
and, in Captain Harlock, the chief engineer and the guy with the
glasses who was always playing around with models, all were
characteristic of this theme (although Galaxy Express played on the
theme the most). In the original Japanese series, characters had at
least one episode where they were allowed to show what really great
guys they are, even though they're usually in the background.
Matsumoto, himself, look a lot like the engineer in Captain Harlock,
so you begin to get an idea of where he got the idea.

Minmei's uncle in Macross can't be explained the same way, since I
don't think Matsumoto had a hand in it, except perhaps by his
influence on Japanese animation in general.  I've noticed, however,
that it's not uncommon for the beautiful girl heroine to have really
plain looking parents.  This may be a throwback to a popular
Japanese folk story called "Kaguya-hima" or "Light Princess" (very
rough translation), in which a plain, aged couple find a beautiful
child in the woods, and she grows up to be a beautiful woman, then
it turns out that she's really from the moon, and all the moon
people come back to get her and she has to leave her adopted
parents.  This is pretty flimsy speculation, though -- what do other
Japanese out there think?

P.S.

The episode guide for Robotech is available.  It's a little larger
than the standard loose-leaf size, and about 300 pages.  The first
part is an episode-by-episode summary of all three series (in the
American version, not the original Japanese), the second part is a
character summary of all the major characters and mekka (Veritecs,
etc.), and the last part is a short history of Japanese animation in
general.  I saw it in passing at the Kinokunia Bookstore in New
York.  You might be able to order it from them, if you're
interested.

The addresses of the Kinokunia Bookstore is:

New York Kinokunia Bookstores
10 West 49th St.
New York, NY  10020
(212) 765-1461

There is also a branch in Los Angeles, but I don't know their
address.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 09:05:43 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

>Hmmm.  Except Godzilla became a hero in later sequels... and one of
>the (human) heros in the very first movie was American.  (A certain
>Mr. Burr of Perry Mason fame, remember?)

Nope!  Raymond Burr was not in the ORIGINAL Japanese film.  He was
in a re-editing of that film with additional footage was shot for
American audiences to tone down the anti-American nature.  As far as
I know the original film has not been shown in this country at all.
There are rumors that it had scenes of American scientists feeding
Godzilla an H-bomb to try to kill him and turning him from a
relatively benign creature into a monster as a result.  The
reshooting was crude.  When the Japanese woman talks to Steve Martin
(Raymond Burr) her back is to the camera so you do not see that it
is a different actress.  She is, however, wearing a different plaid
blouse as they couldn't match the same plaid.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross a


------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 21:54:04 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

First off, you are all WAY off base with this nonsense about the
heroes looking american.  They do NOT look american.  They look like
Japanese.  I suggest that you go out and watch a Samurai flick like
Yojimbo or Seven Samurai.  You will notice that there are several
basic Japanese racial types.  There are dark-skinned, short, chubby
people.  There are tall, pale, muscular people.  There are some in
between.  There are some who more closely resemble northern chinese,
short, thin, and pale but with flat features.

The Japanese are strongly race-conscious because their culture was
very segregated along racial/class lines until very recently.  The
samurai class was made up, for the large part, of taller, thinner,
and paler people.  The Japanese traditional ideals of male and
female beauty are tall, thin but sensual, and pale.  The peasant
class was made up, for the large part, of shorter, rounder people.
Remember Shogun?  Remember that the general who was somewhat more
coarse and humorous was also fat?  This is a common idea in the
Japanese culture.

You will find it in the manga as well.  In a book which is pure
adventure, the heroes will have long mops of wind-blown hair, pale
skin, tall, and skinny.  The comic relief will be "potato people".
In a book which is mixed or which uses the hero as a comic character
sometimes, in those places where the hero is being "funny" (and
Japanese humor is often rather physically brutal slapstick) the
faces will change, and the mouth and eyes will be drawn more like
"potato people".

Second, what makes you think the kids aren't allowed to watch the
cartoons?  The very young children (under 8 or 9) are generally in
bed by the time they come on, true, but then they also have cartoons
aimed at them which aren't as violent or complicated or sexy.  From
the experience of friends who grew up in Japan, the kids are usually
allowed to watch just about anything, but for some reason they don't
get the idea that the world is accurately shown.

As far as sex in Japanese cartoons, and in the manga: There is a
type of cartoon book which isn't properly manga, but is essentially
the same thing.  These are the romances aimed at teenage girls
starting at age 11-12 and popular among girls as old as 18 and 19.
They involve a young, handsome, but gender-ambiguous teenage boy
being explicitly sexually awakened by an older, often foreign, man.
There are other anime which are NEVER going to be butchered by
Harmony Gold, for instance, the Demon, a quaint story of a demon
youth sent to the earth to a Japanese high school.  Lots of sex and
very bloody violence, but it was quite popular among young teens.

>Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE
>Western.  In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the
>ones that aren't exported to the U.S.

No.  Wrong.  When they draw an American, they draw them very
differently.  Among other things, Americans (male) are either about
a foot taller and 80 lbs heavier, or about 2 feet taller, lanky, and
wear cowboy hats.

Women, on the other hand, are either Japanese dark hair and eyes or
they are blonde and blue eyes; anything else is comic relief.

Now that I've said all this, there are two exceptions.  First, when
they explicitly depict someone as being from not-japan, as in the
show currently running on Nickelodeon, "Mysterious Cities of Gold".
Or the Japanese "Heidi".

The second exception is when the characters are designed elsewhere,
as in the Thundercats, Mighty Orbots, or various other shows whose
characters are created in America.  They are often worked over by
the animators, but they tend to come out looking like Japanese
animation of western characters.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 09:27:38 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Japanese films (Godzilla)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
> I still think you guys are way off the track.  Take in account
> that these movies look different from an American perspective...

Umm.  These movies look quite a bit different from an american
perspective.  There is a tendency to reedit the film, depending on
the market.  I'm pretty sure that Mr. Burr was NOT in the original
(japanese version) of Godzilla (I forget what Godzilla is in
Japanese.  Does anyone know why his name was changed for the
American market?).  Someone told me that in the Japanese version of
King Kong vs Godzilla, Godzilla wins.  This isn't limited to monster
films.  There is apparently a series of films about a blind
swordsman (Zatoichi).  China also apparently has a series of films
about a one-armed swordsman.  There is a film in which these two
heroes meet.  In the Japanese version, the Japanese swordsman wins.
In the Chinese, the Chinese wins.  Kind of amusing, really.  I was
at a short film a while back where the audience got to vote which
way the film went at certain branch points.  Kind of like that.

Has this drifted far enough from the original topic yet?

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1649-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #304
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 304

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 18:11:47 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIENS THEORY

From:   watdragon!jsgray        (Jan Gray)

> We do.  The queen hid in the structure of the troop ship, and
> survived the vacuum of space on the trip to the mother ship.

As has been pointed out, she was in the landing gear wells, which
could well have been pressurized. Also, see replies below.

From:   CORY.BERKELEY.EDU!dillon

> At then end of the original ALIENS, Mr Alien seemed quite
> comfortable in vacuum as he attempted to climb back into the
> escape craft after the lock was blown, until Ripley decided to
> engage the thrusters.

If you'll take another look at my previous posting on this subject,
you'll notice that I made the point that a human being would've
lasted *just as long* in a vacuum as "Mr.  Alien" did before he was
fried. And we don't really know, do we, how "comfortable" he was at
that point. He might have been in pain, and trying to get back in
the shuttle as much (or more) to keep from dying in the vacuum as to
attack Ripley.

From:   cbmvax!eric     (Eric Cotton)

> However: The landing legs would have been down *before* the
> landing bay was pressurized.  Thus the queen would have been
> exposed to a vaccuum for (at least) a brief period.  Further, if
> the landing leg cavity was indeed pressurized, wouldn't the queen
> have been ejected by the escaping air?

Second point first: Not necessarily. Not if there wasn't a great
amount of air trapped in the cavity and she had a good grip on the
top struts of the landing gear.

First point second: Notice the word "brief" (your word).  Notice
what I said to Mr. Dillon above. I never claimed that the Aliens
could not survive in a vacuum, only that there's no evidence that
they can survive for very long.

Based on the shuttledown time of the first dropship, and assuming
that the Sulaco's position relative to the second dropship wasn't
very great (the Sulaco probably wasn't too far away since it would
have had to be close --- orbitally speaking --- for Bishop to make
radio contact with it), the flight would likely have been no more
than 20 minutes or a tad longer. I wouldn't be surprised if "Ms.
Alien" could survive that long.

But, there is a *major* difference between surviving 5-30 minutes
and floating in orbit indefinitely with one's thumb out, waiting to
hitch a ride with a randomly passing motorist. Which was the point I
was originally rebutting.  The chance that another ship would
*randomly* happen by is, to excuse the expression, astronomical. The
next ship that would *purposely* happen by would not be around for
at least a month (assuming, for no particular reason, a 17-day
flight back to Earth and another 17-day flight back to Acheron with
another, or perhaps the same, combat ship).  Is there any reason to
assume that the Big Mother Alien could last for a month in a vacuum
(and without sustenance)?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 02:17:37 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: More on _Alien(s)'_ weaponry

phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes:
>I suppose rail guns seem really cool but I wonder about the energy
>density and discharge rate of smokeless powders vs any possible
>battery required to operate such futuristic weapons. Since rail
>guns use such powerful magnetic fields, what happens when two are
>used close to each other?  Do they attract or repell each other
>(strongly!)? What does the magnetic field do to other electronics
>carried by the soldier?

Two points:

The magnetic fields don't HAVE to be that strong -- they just have
to pulse very fast.  Incidentally, you could vary the speed of the
fields to provide different muzzle speeds and projectile rotations
with little work.  This would make the gun extremely versatile.  I
admit, however, it'd probably make a terrible mess out of your
digital watch....  Aren't there pretty efficient ways of killing a
magnetic field anyway?  For instance, I *know* they killed the field
on my (ancient) Kaypro II power supply, since that's a mere 3 or 4
inches from the diskette drives.

As for the amount of power, does anyone recall the amount of power
that needs to be used to set off a common flash (like on a camera)?
I bought a Xenon flashtube once (for playing with, of course) and
the only way to power the thing up was with a coil, since the
voltages were immense.  But they have those (smaller) on half the
cameras made today ... and they run off just 2 AA batteries.  You'd
need something better, of course, since we're talking about at least
several times the current in much less time, but you could
conceivably have multiple charging coils (each recharging as the
others fire) hooked up to a strong battery that would provide
adequate power and still have fast regeneration.  I also draw on the
assumption that somebody, somewhere, will think up the energy source
to put conventional battery makers out of business (maybe like the
one described in Heinlein's _Friday_?).  That'd solve all our energy
problems.  Potentially, you should be able to store a lot of energy
in a very small space, certainly much more than chemical explosives
can give us.  We just don't know how yet.

I was really surprized that nobody tore my suggestion to shreds.  I
can't think of many other things you could do, or flaws in what I
thought of (or got from other people -- all science fiction comes
from previous...), but there are some pretty technical people out
there.  Maybe their postings aren't here yet....

Happily awaiting _Alien Designers_ or _Alien Origins_ or whatever....

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 06:59:01 GMT
From: cec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: A Quick Aliens Question:

tdawson@wheaton (Tony Dawson) writes:
>When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see the
>cloud-covered planet through the open air lock.  BUT when Ripley
>blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field.  Did I
>miss something?  Who or what moved the ship?  Was it not the same
>air lock?  (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were
>clouds in the drop scene).

   The ship doesn't necessarily have to have moved.  Most likely it
kept its orientation but moved further on in its orbit, so that the
planet was no longer visible "underneath".

pH

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 22:57:48 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: armor-piercing shells, acid blood, and Aliens

phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes:
>Also, since the aliens had such strong acids available (their blood
>could easily eat through the floors and the soldier's armour) why
>didn't they just melt down any doors in their way?

"Hey, solider!"
   Yessir?
"I need you to step up here, and bleed all over this door for me."
   Bleed, sir?
"Bleed."
   Yessir.  How much blood would you like, sir?
"Coupla quarts."
   No problem, sir.

I expect that the 'acid' blood of the Aliens was a passive defense,
like their armor.  Just because they carry it around doesn't make it
"available" to them.  Could you use your heart to pump water on
demand?

Anyway, when the Marines first mentioned that they carried
explosive- tipped, armor-piercing rounds in their weapons, I was
delighted.  Nothing better to use on an exoskeletoned beast than
something that would 1. penetrate that armor and 2. promptly blow
up.  Like putting an M-80 or three inside a pumpkin -- kablooey.
Much better than, say, a lead slug or lead pellets.

Trivia time: Anyone remember a scene where someone hands Bishop a
pistol?  Remember what he does with it?  Any conjectures as to why?

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 14:40:15 GMT
From: chinet!megabyte@caip.rutgers.edu (Dr. Megabyte)
Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol?

benn@sphinx.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes:
>Trivia time: Anyone remember a scene where someone hands Bishop a
>pistol?  Remember what he does with it?  Any conjectures as to why?

Yes, This was the scene were Bishop is being placed in the steam
tunnel in order to go out and use his Tandy model 100+ (grin) to
bring down the ship.  One of the crew hands him a pistol which
Bishops hands right back.

WHY did he hand it back?  I've often wondered that myself.  Assuming
that he follows Asimov's laws, then perhaps he felt that the humans
needed it more than he did. I really just don't know, but I'll cros
post this to net.movies

Mark E. Sunderlin
UUCP:   (1) seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder
        (2) ihnp4!chinet!megabyte
(202) 634-2529
Mail:   IRS  PM:PFR:D:NO
        1111 Constitution Ave. NW
        Washington,DC 20224

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 14:32:31 EDT
From: Stev Knowles <stev@BU-CS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Aliens

We can assume that the cavern in the crashed ship in the first movie
was moved into and taken over by the bugs as was the area under the
reactor was in the second movie. I seem to recall the character of
the ship changing as they got deeper into it, but I can't be sure.

The question is, can we assume there was a queen back at the old
ship, and that another queen formed at the colony (as some of you
have stated could happen in the life-cycle of an alien.)? As I
recall, the colony was some distance from the crash site, so it is
possible (I suppose) that some may survive there also.

I suppose there may even be yet another wreckage somewhere where
they started (sorta like more than one ghost on a level, for you
Hackers out there.)

As an aside, I think it would be good for someone in "power" in the
studios to read this stuff, maybe it would help them avoid some of
the stupider things they could go into in the (possible) next movie,
or give them good ideas for aspects to look at.

stev knowles

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 16:37:10 GMT
From: nbc1!abs@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Siegel)
Subject: Re: A Quick Aliens Question:

> When Ripley & co. make their "drop" from the mother ship we see
> the cloud-covered planet through the open air lock.  BUT when
> Ripley blows the Queen out of the same lock we see a star field.
> Did I miss something?  Who or what moved the ship?  Was it not the
> same air lock? (I saw the movie twice and verified that there were
> clouds in the drop scene).

I'm pretty sure that the airlock that Ripley ejected the alien from
was *not* the same airlock that the ship entered and exited from.
The ship's airlock opened onto the hangar deck, while the service
airlock in question was *integral* with the deck, and so was
oriented 90 degrees away from the ship's lock.  This would explain
the apparent discrepancy.

Andrew Siegel, N2CN
philabs!nbc1!abs
NBC Computer Imaging, New York, NY
(212)664-5776

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 23:27:23 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Why Bishop gave the pistol back

megabyte@chinet.UUCP (Dr. Megabyte) writes:
>WHY did he hand it back?  I've often wondered that myself.
>Assuming that he follows Asimov's laws, then perhaps he felt that
>the humans needed it more than he did.

Why not?  Ash in _Alien_ was the only member of the crew who was not
apparently concerned with getting killed by the alien.  Why would
the alien wipe out a robot?  Certainly not to eat or to raise one of
those things with.  I think there's a limit to what kind of hosts it
can use, and that's gotta be out-of-bounds.

So: He's not worried about aliens killing him.  Who *else* would he
use the gun on?  Nobody else would stand in his way.  Therefore, it
was most intelligent to give the gun back.  Besides, it would just
get in the way while he was crawling down the pipe.

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 20:19:08 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: More on _Alien(s)'_ weaponry

Actually, I never considered electromagnetic launchers in the guns
(partly because of the muzzle flash--I didn't think there should be
any in an em launcher).  However.  There was an article in the local
paper yesterday saying that the army was investigating putting rail
guns in tanks.  Wow.  So if the rifles were portable rail guns, you
might see a muzzle flash from the escaping plasma.  I'd think the
barrel would have a different design if it were a rail gun, but it's
hard to say.  Certainly it fits in with the compact electric power
supply that's been implied by other bits of technology in the movie.

So.  Has anyone figured out where the fuel for the flame throwers is
kept?

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 10:30:55 -0500
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: ALIENS - VACUME SURVIVAL

   I believe that Ripley states somewhere in the beginning of the
story (I believe at the hearing) that the creatures could survive in
vacuum. I also seem to remember that in the first book, Dallas and
company trapped the Alien in a room and decompressed it to no avail.
Also, it is pretty unlikely that an external landing pod would be
pressurized, much the same as not pressurizing them on airliners...
there is no justification for the added expense.

   On the other mentioned subject about a 'several ton queen'. I
would assume quite the opposite were true. Granted she is a big
mother (sorry), but in watching the film these things are all very
agile and climb walls and ceilings and jump all over the place
without causing any damage normally associated with a large mass.
Therefore, I contend that these creature are very light weight.

Wes Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 86 00:36:40 -0500
From: skitchen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Alien Queen Survival

Jim Frost writes:
>Possibilities beside, there is no proof that the queen survived the
>trip up "in a vacuum".

jsgray@watdragon.UUCP is right.  The queen survived the trip up in a
vacuum.  If anyone recalls the scene where Ripley and Newt are
standing on the platform where Bishop was supposed to pick them up,
you will remember that the dropship was knocked onto the platform by
an explosion.  It is clearly shown in that scene that the landing
gear is jammed open by a piece of debris.  My guess is that the
queen crawled in there, survived the trip up, and was ready to go at
it with everyone else once they got back to the Sulaco.

Scott Kitchen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 22:16:18 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>   I can barely imagine collecting interstellar hydrogen at .99c.
>I cannot imagine (and I doubt anyone else can, either) picking up a
>useful quantity of fuel from a "Jupiter-like body" as you pass it
>at .99c.

Such a body would most likely have a rather large and extended
atmosphere.  It isn't necessary to get the fuel from the solid
portion thereof (insofar as such bodies *have* solid portions).

And, incidently, I *can* imagine picking up a useful quantity of
fuel from the body itself.  For example, one might send a probe
ahead to blast it loose.  Difficult and dangerous, yes; but not
impossible.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1701-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #305
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 305

Today's Topics:

            Books - Delany & Dick & Laumer & McIntyre &
                    Prescot & Simak (2 msgs) & Varley

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 04:53:53 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@caip.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delany

everett@hp-pcd.UUCP (everett) writes:
>Quite early on I read several stories by Delaney, and enjoyed them
>them IMMENSELY.
>  However, I got de-railed by Delaney when I tried tackling a new
>(at the time) book of his (I can't remember the title) where the
>character spends the entire novel wandering around this immense
>city (post-holocaust,

  The book you are refering to is _Dahlgren_ (sp?).  I tried to read
it in a science fiction lit class taught by Kim Stanley Robinson (
_A Memory of Whiteness_, _Icehenge_) and only finished 300 of the
1000+ pages ( one book a week ).  The plot was at times so
convoluted that the only way to catch up was to reread from the
start of the chapter.  A great book for language and its uses.  Too
bad I have never been able to get back into it again.  You might try
_Nova_, much easier reading while still being a very good novel.
Another of his to read is _The Tides of Lust_, but only if you are
ready for an avalanch of profanity, sex, and what many would call
perversion.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 02:24:26 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs.ARPA (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re:  Blade Runner vs Do Androids...

'Silas Snake' (if that's a real name, it's an interesting one!) saw
the movie BLADERUNNER and then read Phil Dick's novel DO ANDROIDS
DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? and was disappointed.  I personally think
that DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? is one of Dick's better
novels, and I certainly liked it more than Silas apparently did.
I'll try to give a few reasons here why I think he might be missing
some interesting features of ANDROIDS.  (Beware -- some spoilers
will unavoidably be introduced in the discussion.)

Silas says that the purpose of ANDROIDS is to create a society with
a unique religion, Mercerism, and ask 'What if?' I think the purpose
is much deeper -- the book is trying to answer the question, 'What
is the authentic human being?' Dick has invented creatures
(androids) which are almost exactly like human beings but lack one
essential human trait, empathy; this lack informs all of the action
and all of the characterization in the book.  Mercerism isn't
important for its dogma, it's important because it is inaccessible
to androids.  The plot of the novel is only superficially concerned
with Deckard's detective work -- the real point is Deckard's slow
appreciation of the quality of the difference between androids and
human beings.  Notice how subtle this difference is: it requires a
complicated and tedious test to identify an android, and humans are
constantly confusing androids for humans.  The most chilling aspect
of this is the realization that so many human beings don't use their
capacity for empathy, with the result that the planet is being taken
over by androids and the humans have barely noticed.

By saying that the plot is only 'superficially' about the detective
story, I don't want to imply that the detective story is
superficial.  As a bounty hunter, Deckard is placed squarely in the
middle of Dick's dilemma, since he must be able to distinguish
androids from humans in order to survive.  The plot events are
organized to show Deckard's increasing confusion about his job and
his approach to his final epiphany, not to highlight some
spectacularly violent climax like BLADERUNNER's.  For example, the
sequence with the detective who fears that he may be an android is
not just meant to provide suspense, it's there to illustrate the
difficulty humans have in appreciating what makes them human.
(Witness the detective's behavior with the singer android after her
snide comments about humans being a superior life form, and
Deckard's reaction to it: 'Do you think androids have souls?')

I think the film copped out in giving 'replicants' the ability to
acquire empathy.  The novel's Deckard is able to empathize with the
android Rachael even though Rachael is incapable of empathy in
return; the movie's Deckard has a much easier task.  There are some
great images in the film and some memorable lines and I really did
like it, but the movie lacks the book's intellectual
adventurousness.  If ANDROIDS disappointed Silas, he'll really hate
other works of Dick's like VALIS or THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE...

Philip K Dick is dead, alas,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 08:20:50 GMT
From: akov68.dec.com!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: THE INVADERS (books)

From: convex!poole@caip.rutgers.edu     (Rick Poole)

> ...I found a copy of the book THE INVADERS in a second hand book
> store in Atlanta years ago. The cover had the INVADERS saucer and
> claimed to be about the TV-series but that's where the
> simularities ended. I still found the book enjoyable and have
> looked for the rest of the series but have yet to see them.

If this was by Keith Laumer, and had a red cover with a photo of Roy
Thinnes and a saucer, then, yes, it was based on the tv show. Laumer
did add a lot of his own ideas to it, though.  There were only two
other books in this US paperback series, ENEMIES FROM BEYOND (also
by Laumer) and ARMY OF THE UNDEAD (by Rafe Bernard). Whitman Books
also published a juvenile hardcover based on the show. And in the
UK, there were two additional paperbacks, both by Peter Leslie:
NIGHT OF THE TRILOBITES and THE AUTUMN ACCELERATOR. It might also be
worth mentioning that the Bernard novel appeared in the UK under a
different title, THE HALO HIGHWAY. And the first Laumer novel
appeared there as THE METEOR MEN by "Anthony LeBaron". It's been 17
years or so since I read these, but I seem to recall that the two
British paperbacks by Leslie were probably the best of the bunch.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 86 13:10 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Enterprise: The First Adventure
To: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu

Lisa Wahl's Official Prediction:

Fan reaction to this book will be mixed, divided between those who
read ST fanzines who'll hate it, and those who don't who'll love it.

I'm in the former category.  I've read so many good fannish stories
speculating on the background of the Big E characters that it bugs
me for an "upstart" (I don't care how many SF awards she's won) like
Vonda McIntyre to do such a comparitively poor job.  (But then, I've
never forgiven her for giving Sulu and Uhura first names other than
those used by fans for years, especially when all other pro authors
followed her lead.)

The key word is "self-indulgence".  McIntyre's interested in giving
the ST characters the background she'd like to see, in introducing
her own ST universe characters (fortunately, Captain Hunter isn't
too prominent), and not much interested in staying close to the tv
series.  (Clues to self-indulgence: a pegasus ((at least it wasn't a
unicorn)) and a girl named Amelinda "My friends call me Lindy") I
expect and can sometimes suffer through self-indulgence from fans,
but from an award-winning pro author, I find it inexcusable.

Much of this novel just doesn't ring true to me: Janice Rand, for
example.  In the series, she seems to be fairly new in "Corbomite
Maneuver," but McIntyre has her with the Enterprise from the
beginning.  While I found the character McIntyre presented for Rand
to be interesting, I don't think it coincides with anything we saw
in the series.

For another, okay, I ask ST viewers who haven't read this book to
write in: How do you envision McCoy spending a shore leave?  Hopping
bars?  On a Southern plantation drinking mint juleps?  On a
riverboat down the Missisippi playing Riverboat Gambler?  Do you
picture him, get this, white water rafting?

Now, watch "The Naked Time" Sulu is pictured as a dilettante with a
new hobby every week.  This week, it's fencing.  And, he fences like
an enthusiastic beginner.  Can you watch this episode and believe
him to be a former championship-winning fencer?

Of course, I guess she HAD to get McCoy in there, somehow, in spite
of his not being in "Where No Man Has Gone Before."  Chekov, too.
Similarly, she didn't want to waste time on Gary Mitchell, since
he's only around for one episode.

*sigh* Why can't Pocket publish more good fannish-style novels, like
Crisis on Centaurus?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 03:57:59 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Seebacher)
To: rochester!bullwinkle!batcomputer!cpf@topaz.UUCP
Subject: Dray Prescot

At last, someone else who appreciates the Dray Prescot series.
Judging from the sales figures, however, there should be quite a few
of us out here.  I do tend to disagree with you on a few points.

First off, I am of the opinion that this was not the "intentionally
bad" series that we have heard so much about.  My candidate is, for
reasons that you have already mentioned, the "Dumarest of Terra"
series by E. C. Tubb.  "Prescot" is just too good and well thought
out for my vote.

Secondly, the Burroughs references.  A number of the "Prescot" books
mention that although many people compare it to Burroughs, it is
much more reminiscent of John Norman's Gor series.  Gor's hero, Tarl
Cabot, is sent off on many a mysterious adventure for the equally
mysterious Priest-Kings, a race of mantis- like aliens.  Gor is also
populated by many races, including intelligent spiders, that have
been taken from their home planets by the P-Ks.

Your mention of the airship dilemma was solved by Otis Adelbert
Kline in the 1930's in his "Planet of Peril" series set on Venus.
Kline was the only serious competition to Burroughs at the time.  So
far I have traced down six novels and one short story.  The novels
are set two on Mars, three on Venus, and one on the Moon.  The short
story takes place on Venus.

As you seem to be a fan of ERB, I thought I would clue you in on a
few facts that are not all that well known.  When I was a kid I
bought comic books.  In doing so, I came across several pieces of a
saga about a swordsman on Mars.  The hero was Gulliver Jones.  Years
later in High School I was assigned to read "A Princess of Mars" and
thought I had found the rest of the series.  Well, I dug up the old
comic books and found to my dismay that they were not the same.

Several months ago I found the story.  It was in an ancient
paperback.  The title was "Gulliver of Mars", originally "Lt.
Gulliver Jones," and was written more than a decade before
"Princess."  In the introduction by Richard Luppoff he told the
story of finding this story.  The story is not in the Burroughs
style, and the hero is not John Carter.  The planet, however, is
almost identical: From the twin cities of Helium right down to the
River of Death.

The author was Edwin L. Arnold.  Arnold wrote one other book that
was known to Luppoff.  It was titled "Phra the Phoenician" and was
also written before "Princess."  In this book was the answer to
another mystery.  Phra was John Carter through and through.  I have
not yet located a copy of "Phra" but I hope the west-coast stores
can supply a copy.

Back to "Prescot."  I do not try to compare Prescot to Gor in style,
but in the setup of the planet and charecter development of Tarl.  I
do feel that the Gor series did fall apart after the seventh book
(right where the series switches from Del-Rey to DAW).  After that,
the author has some real problems.

I do agree that marketing is rather nonexistent for the series.  I
for one had a hard time completing the collection.  I started it
merely by chance when a local used-book store had the first several
volumes.  It was a pleasant surprise.  For some unknown reason DAW
has seen fit to republish the Krozair cycle.  They should do the
whole series, but DAW seems to have a problem with republishing;
very few of their books have seen several printings.  Gor appears to
be a real favorite of theirs.

Speaking of the Krozairs of Zy.  Did you happen to notice in "the
Suns of Scorpio" what celebrity reads the series??? (or at least
that far) When reading of Dray's training for the Krozairs, I kept
seeing the face of Mark Hamill, or more correctly, Luke Skywalker.
Krozair training seemed very like Jedi training as far as battle and
swordplay were concerned.  This led me to believe that George Lucas
is at least familiar with the series.

I still can not agree with labeling Prescot as being in the
Burroughs tradition.  The three major ERB fan clubs have not listed
it as being so.  There are many who think that all that is needed to
be in the Burroughs tradition is sword and sorcery style heroics on
a fully thought-out planet.  This is not the case, although it is
part of the tradition.  The rest deals with writing style and plot
development (i.e. always just missing rescuing the heroine until the
end of the book, or immediately losing her again if it was
successful).

Once again let me say that it has been a pleasure to hear from
someone else who appreciates possibly the best series of its kind.
Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can claim
over thirty titles?  Dumarest is the only one I can think of.

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 18:15:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!everett@caip.rutgers.edu (everett)
Subject: Re: Clifford Simak _Time is the Simplest

No, he DID write a book called "Time And Again", I read it in high
school, lo, these many years ago, (circa 1968 or 9).  I thoroughly
enjoyed it at the time (it's stuck in my mind, anyway...  I can even
remember the cover; it was published by Ace.)

Everett Kaser
Albany, OR

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 18:17:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: clifford Simak...FIRST

From:   bucsb.bu.edu!madd       (Jim Frost)
> Are you thinking of Simak's _Time is the Simplest Thing_?  Or did
> he write two books dealing with time travel?

No, I'm thinking of TIME AND AGAIN, which, yes, does deal with time
travel. It was written (or rather published) 10 years before TIME IS
THE SIMPLEST THING.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 18:56:51 PDT (Saturday)
From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM>
Subject: Persistence of Vision

I seem to recall hearing, two or three years ago, that the reprint
paperback of Persistence of Vision was missing two pages of text
somewhere.  I even recall looking at my copy (which I'd bought
because I'd foolishly loaned my first edition, and may never see it
again) and verifying that there was a gap in the text.  But when I
mentioned it to someone recently, and he challenged me, I couldn't
for the life of me remember where the gap was nor find it in a
casual flip through the book.  Does anyone recall where this was?
Please reply to me directly, lest the net get flooded with multiple
responses.

Don
...!parcvax!woods
Woods@Xerox.com]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1714-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #306
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 306

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 05:01:53 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Literary Criticism Is Far From Cut and Dried

> Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a
> fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the
> Midianites.  Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few
> positive effects; he stated outright that the nuclear war was
> "good for the country".  Go back and check the quote if you don't
> believe me (and I'll grant you, it's hard to believe).  He then
> went on to say that it had "turned the tide" toward the triumph of
> freedom, and that the net effect would be to "improve the breed".
> Not hesitantly, not dryly, not in passing - Heinlein states
> outright and enthusiastically that nuclear war would be a
> wonderful thing!

A Heinlein *character* makes the statement.  And hasn't anyone heard
anymore of overstatement as a form of irony?

There is in Heinlein's writings an undeniable streak of a certain
kind of elitism, coupled with a conspicuous lack of any sympathy of
their opponents.  My personal opinion is that this reflects the
author's viewpoint.  Nevertheless, Ethan Vishniac's reply brings out
a point which I wish to expand upon.  Let us take another Heinlein
book: _Glory Road_.  Here we have another supercompetent Heinlein
hero (and the heroine is the absolute icon of all Heinlein
heroines), but one very different from Farnham.  I cannot imagine
"Oscar" having anything at all good to say about nuclear war.  His
attitude towards incompetence is more along the lines of "fine, just
leave me alone".  Which are you going to choose as the mouthpiece of
the author?  If you choose one, you must choose the other as well.

SF is innately speculative.  With respect to Heinlein's books, while
I'd say that the main characters do tend to speak for the author,
there's generally no ratification of the societies in which they are
placed.  Farnham's plight is a case in point; I have little doubt
that Heinlein meant approval for Franham, but clearly he thinks the
situation Farnham is in is pretty rotten.

(By the way, Tim, why aren't you sniping at H. G. Wells?  _Farnham's
Freehold_ is, after all, an out-and-out rip-off of _The Time
Machine_.)

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 13:53:38 GMT
From: mtung!slj@caip.rutgers.edu (S. Luke Jones)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

> Because you demanded it, pilgrim, herewith the quotes proving
> Heinlein's support for nuclear war.  These are taken from "Ghastly
> Beyond Belief", an anthology of bad and embarrassing science
> fiction excerpts.

If you're going to run down literature, you ought to read the
original rather than a collection of excerpts taken out-of-context
by people who (as the title of their collection indicates) had an
axe to grind.

> First, from "Pie in the Sky":

It's "Pie From The Sky" not "Pie In The Sky."

>   There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of
>   ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of
>   the Hiroshima treatment.

This is nothing.  He also says that a nuclear war would get rid of
mothers in law, and put an end to special days like "National Tulip
Day."  But I'm amazed the editor(s) of _Ghastly Beyond Belief_
didn't catch the sarcasm.  In fact, I suspect they did catch it, but
ignored it in order to "prove" their point.  It isn't hard to catch:
all but the last page or so of the essay lists petty gripes people
have that a nuclear war would get rid of.

The last page says (sorry I don't have it with me, but I usually
read for pleasure, rather than to refute deliberate disinformation)
something like "But, if you're one of those softies who _likes_
indoor plumbing..." and there follows a list of the ammenities of
civilization which would be absent after a nuclear war, "then you
should run, not walk, and phone your congressman...."

The entire point of "Pie From The Sky" -- if you read the story
itself, rather than a collection of blurbs more misleading than
anything you might find on the back cover of a paperback -- was to
drum up grass-roots support for the U.N.  The story was written
after WWII when it looked to some as if the US might opt out of the
UN the way it avoided joining the League of Nations at the end of
WWI.

(Since then, mercifully, Heinlein has come to the realization that a
world government of the type the UN would be if it had any teeth
would be worse than no world government.  But that's not part of the
story.)

> Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's
> Freehold", a post-holocaust novel of which Michael Moorcock wrote
> in the critical/political essay "Starship Stormtroopers", "It's
> not such a big step ... from *Farnham's Freehold* to Hitler's
> *Lebensraum*."

I can't believe this!  The entire book catalogs, in detail, exactly
what the horrors associated with a nuclear war would be.  In the
scenario in the book this includes having one's hometown (near
Cheyenne Mtn in Colorado) smashed by an A-bomb, and, in life after
the attack, the hero's daughter dies in childbirth because the
civilization you accuse Heinlein of sneering at (above) is missing.
I won't spoil any more, but only a complete *idiot* would call the
post-war life in _Farnham's Freehold_ a cakewalk.  Hardly a close
step to "Lebensraum."

But, in one conversation, the protagonist mentions how this
[nuclear] war was different from all the others.  (This was of
course the one chosen for quotation out of context.)  Hugh Farnham
says the war might be better than previous wars, because the
intelligent have a better chance of survival than in previous wars.

Pacifists have been saying for hundreds of years that "if generals
and politicians had to risk their own lives, there would be no more
wars."  Heinlein is stating essentially the same thing.  And he says
that this war, because it is a war of mass destruction, is the
closest thing there's ever been to that.  No-nukers have been saying
since 1945 that the first atomic war would be the last, etc. etc.

S. Luke Jones (...ihnp4!mtung!slj)
AT&T Information Systems
Middletown, NJ, U.S.A.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 13:31:26 GMT
From: hope!corwin@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kempf)
Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

If you will read Expanded Universe by RAH, you will find a short
story titled (I believe) "Solution Unsatisfactory", as well as a
couble of articles that he wrote in an attempt to cause the public
to be aware of the threat of a nuclear war.

Those of you who have not read Expanded Universe really should not
talk about his opinions on the matter.

cory
VOICE:  (714) 788 0709
UUCP:   {ucbvax!ucdavis,sdcsvax,ucivax}!ucrmath!hope!corwin
ARPA:   ucrmath!hope!corwin@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
USNAIL: 3637 Canyon Crest apt G302
        Riverside Ca.  92507

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 13:19:18 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

>Here, I *am* more familiar with the context, and, as I suspected,
>the quote in context is far less clearly nucleophilic.  Consider:
>The quote explores the hypothesis that a nuclear war would cull the
>"unfit", and that hardy, freedomloving folk might selectively
>survive.  (Even so, it is worth noting that again he did *not* say
>that the net effect would be beneficial.)

YOU LIE!!!  He said that the war would be good for the country in
the very first paragraph.  What the hell is wrong with you jerks,
can't you read perfectly plain and straightforward English?  Am I to
be reduced to simply quoting him again and again while you deny that
he said what he said in the very clearest possible terms?  Tell me,
what does it mean to you to say that something will be good for the
country?  That the country has been going downhill and that this
will be the turning point?  Tell me which particular word you don't
understand and I'll be happy to define it for you.

Oh, I forgot.  HEINLEIN said it.  Therefore, it can't say anything
wrong.  If it does say something wrong, just squint during that
sentence.  I notice not one of you Heinlein supporters has had the
balls to include the relevant quotes I gave from "Farnham's
Freehold", because if you did, the discussion would be over.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 13:08:14 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

>If Heinlein himself said (and not one of his characters) that he
>supports nuclear was (no rational human being does and I believe
>Heinlein to be rational) then you would have proof.

Surely you could not have missed the obvious fact that Heinlein's
character was delivering a polemic of Heinlein's, as always happens
in Heinlein's books.  The pedantic speechifying was obvious.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 22:28:00 GMT
From: styx!mcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

One thing that I missed on the first go-round is that Mr. Maroney
apparently has not read FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD nor Heinlein's excellent
book of essays, EXPANDED UNIVERSE, in anything near their entirety
Anyone who has done so and could seriously entertain the thought
that Heinlein is in favor of nuclear war is, simply, dealing in a
different mental space than the rest of us. Evidently, Mr. Maroney
has come to his conclusions about the "fascism" of American SF
writers, RAH included, on the basis of an essay by Michael Moorcock,
the noted British new-waver and ideologue. Interesting.

I would also like to know in what way Heinlein and his colleagues
are "fascists". My Merriam-Webster here defines fascism as

   "A political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation
   or race above the individual and that stands for a centralized
   autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe
   economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of
   opposition." (1977 edition, p. 416)

This is most interesting. Obviously this closely resembles Robert A.
Heinlein's political views! (:-) I wonder if Mr. Maroney would care
to flesh out his thesis, or if he merely defines the word "fascist"
to mean "anything I don't agree with."

> Mr. Berch speaks with the fervent preconception of a
> fundamentalist inventing excuses for the slaughter of the
> Midianites.  [...]

Not being a fundamentalist, I am not familiar with the slaughter of
the Midianites. Will somebody enlighten me?

> I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, [...]

Of course he is. I am not ashamed to say so in any public forum,
including this one.

> [...]  And "Pie in the Sky" is even more unambiguous: "There are
> so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of ours which
> would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the Hiroshima
> treatment."

Evidently Mr. Maroney both 1) did not bother to read the paragraphs
surrounding the quoted material, and 2) is unfamiliar with the
rhetorical device of irony.

> collection "The Opium General", deals not primarily with the
> fascism of many science fiction writers, but of the peculiar
> phenomenon of their support by people who disagree with their
> views; Mr. Berch has given us a fine example of this.

Now you've lost me. Who said I disagreed with RAH's views? I am not
a fascist, nor is he (see definition above). Mr. Heinlein and I
certainly differed in our views about the nature and necessity of
the Vietnam war, and probably disagree about a whole bunch of
relatively important things, but are pretty much in sync otherwise.
What gives?

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 17:47:18 GMT
From: tektronix!davest@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Stewart)
Subject: Re: Pie From the Sky

  It seems to me that the upshot of `Pie in the Sky' was that the
reasoned response was to prepare yourself for the worst by getting
yourself in shape physically, learn all sorts of survival skills and
be ready to jump for your hidey-hole when the big one comes.
(Although this might not have been in `Pie in the Sky' I *know* it
was expounded by Heinlein in one of his magazine essays).  This is
highly motivational and quite noble.

   However, in light of the current view of the ecological impact of
an all-out nuclear exchange, it would not matter where one is
located on the planet - it's probably lights out.  WAR DAY and all
aside, it is naive to think that the survivalist approach will work.

   Does this imply that Heinlein is naive?  Possibly.  However, RAH
is one of those authors who is not afraid to make outrageous
statements in order to evoke reaction.  I respect him on this, even
though I strongly disagree on most of these stated opinions
(especially his statements on religion).  There is some benefit in
this: after all, it gets people off the fence and into the arena of
discussion on crucial issues - and there is no more crucial issue
that I know of than racial suicide.

David C. Stewart
Unix Systems Support Group
Tektronix, Inc.
uucp:    tektronix!davest
csnet:   davest@TEKTRONIX
phone:   (503) 627-5418

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 18:00:30 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb (actually, author's
Subject: intents)

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Surely you could not have missed the obvious fact that Heinlein's
>character was delivering a polemic of Heinlein's, as always happens
>in Heinlein's books.  The pedantic speechifying was obvious.

Surely you could not have missed the obvious fact that authors are
not to be trusted with regards to intent. In "Stranger In a Strange
Land" (and in Number of the Beast), Heinlein gives us an author who
has no scruples about writing specifically for the market, without
ever trying to put his own opinions into the writing. He's rather
successful at it, too.

Example 1:

Robert Frost was once asked by the head of a poetry circle what was
the true meaning of "Stopping By Woodside On A Snowy Evening". He
replied that it was about stopping by woodside on a snowy evening.
The head of the poetry circle went away, secure in the knowledge
that he now knew what the poem was about. A question is, did he?

I think it is more important to look at individual works on their
own merits, not without worrying about this "author's intent" issue.
The questions you raise then turn from "Is Heinlein in favor of
nuclear war" to "Is Farnham's Freehold an argument for nuclear
war?".

Example 2:

Many years ago, on my English AP, I was asked to write an argument.
There were 2 philosophy teachers at my school who incessantly argued
over how to teach kids. I answered the question by writing down a
typical conversation between the two. Either part of the
conversation could easily have been called "Courtney polemic mode",
although I only agreed with one of the views.

I think both sides of a discussion tend to use authoritarian voice,
in everyday life. I think the correct conclusion is not that
Heinlein has"mouthpiece" characters, but that lots of his characters
argue this way.

Example 3:

In the "Summa Theologica", Thomas Aquinas uses a pretty strict form
of argumentation: he makes some attempt at convincing the reader of
a straw dog position of some form, then shows it to be false, then
presents a new position which he thinks must really be the case.

I think the section of "Farnham's Freehold" you cited is simply the
straw dog section of the argument. Seeing the results is the grim
proving this position to be in error.

Tom

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1733-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #307
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 307

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Anderson (2 msgs) &
                          Battlestar Galactica &
                          Doctor Who & 
                          Far Out Space Nuts (2 msgs) &
                          Project: UFO & Star Trek (4 msgs) &
                          More SF TV

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 21:41:30 GMT
From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson)

jrw@hropus.UUCP (Jim Webb) writes:
>Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they
>weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean.  I remember one

You mean marionettes - articulated puppets on strings.

>about this family how lived on this island and had all these
>rockets and aircraft that were numbered.  One of them was this sort
>of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly.
>It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods
>under- neath.  Another rocket shot out from under their swimming
>pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past.

That was "Thunderbirds". I believe there were 9 rockets, each
specialized for some function.

>This show also had a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket
>fighter pilots, or was that another show?

That show was "Captain Scarlet" (or Scarlett - it's been about 17
years)

Ah, yes, the old Gerry & Sylvia Anderson marionette shows,
distributed by ITC. I remember four or five of them - wonder if
they're available on videotape anywhere? Lemme see, there were:

Thunderbirds - the exploits of International Rescue, which was
   pretty much a family operation. Dad was a lot like Lorne Greene
   in Bonanza or Battlestar Galactica, take your pick. There was a
   movie in about 1969 where they had to go to Mars and rescue some
   astronauts from Martian snakes that spit Roman-candle fireballs.

Captain Scarlet(t) - Cloudbase, women flying rocket fighters right
   along with the men, UFO's attacking . . UFO was a live-action
   version of this one.  The UFO's even looked the same.

Stingray - a city that could be lowered underground, submarine
   (Stingray) launches from a long tunnel ending in big rock doors.
   I remember that Stingray didn't use an ordinary propeller but
   something conical with vanes on its outer surface. There was an
   episode about a gigantic pearl (some 4 feet in diameter) that
   attracted clams. When they took it aboard Stingray hundreds of
   clams attached to and jammed the impeller.

Supercar - must have been the first one I saw, 'cause I don't
   remember much.  It ran on wheels, but also had rockets. I
   remember it launching from an inclined ramp that raised up on
   hydraulic cylinders.

Was there another one? I dimly recall images that don't fit any of
these four but I could be wrong.

I liked all of them, but I was <10 years old so they might not
actually be that good. I'd still like to see them again.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
{sdcsvax!sdcc3|kontron|crash|gould9}loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 00:04:11 GMT
From: apollo!johnf@caip.rutgers.edu (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Old SF-TV (Thunderbirds)

>Speaking of Anderson, he did some intriguing shows with, hell, they
>weren't puppets, but I hope you know what I mean.  I remember one
>about this family how lived on this island and had all these
>rockets and aircraft that were numbered.  One of them was this sort
>of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its belly.
>It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the various pods
>underneath.  Another rocket shot out from under their swimming
>pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past.  This show also had
>a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket fighter pilots, or
>was that another show?

Aaah, that brings back the good old days...  You mean
"Thunderbirds".

"Thunderbird 1" was the rocket (red). I think "Thunderbird 2" was
the big green flying box-car thing. Another one (3 ?) was a
combination spaceship and submarine, and another one was a space
station.  There were also two feature-length movies - "Thunderbirds
Are Go!" and "Fireball XL-5".

The female rocket fighter pilots were, I think, from UFO. (at least
they were if you mean the ones with purple hair and skin-tight
flight suits).

Trivia Questions -
 o  Who was Lady Penelope?
 o  What make was her car ?
 o  What colour was it ?
 o  What else was unusual about it ?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 15:40:40 GMT
From: hammer!andrew@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Klossner)
Subject: Re: Lost in Space

>"In Battlestar Galactica, the super-cylon set to advise Baltar had
>a very familiar voice - that of the man you love to hate, Jonathan
>Harris, aka Dr. Smith."

It was Patrick Macnee (sp?), he of the bowler and brollee on "The
Avengers," who later played an antichrist figure on B. G.

By the way, B. G. makes a lot more sense when you know that much of
it was inspired by the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints ("the Mormons").

Andrew Klossner
(decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew)       [UUCP]
(tekecs!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 13:01:40 GMT
From: carnellp@usrcv1.dec.com (Fanmail from some Flounder?)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who Roadshow - Review & Spoilers

Well, I went down to the mall this weekend to check out the Dr. Who
Experience USA Tour. The presentation consists of a tractor trailer
filled with props and costumes from the show, the Dr.'s car Bessie
sitting outside, and a merchandise counter out front selling all
sorts of things with the special "USA Tour" logo.

It cost $2.00 to take a tour of the trailer and includes a flyer
describing the displays. A sign indicated that all money collected
for this would go to the local PBS station. You enter the trailer
through a police box and step into an undersized replica of the
Tardis control room with control panel. This is the only display in
the exhibit that is not a real prop from the show and kept behind
glass. You then walk along a a zig-zag path through the trailer past
glass display cabinets containing the props and costumes. These
include: (taken from the flyer ) a Dalek, mask of Sutekh, mask of
Davros, mask of a Cryon, a Robot of Death, a Sea Devil, mask of
Sutekh, mask of the Malus, the Ergon, a Sontaran, a Tractator, a
Cyberman, a Silurian, an early Cyberman mask, mask of a Mutt, mask
of a Marshman, mask of a Styggron, the High Priestess headdress from
"K9 and Company", mask of the Gastropod Nestor, and finally, in a
free standing glass case, K9.  Then you exit through another police
box and step out next to Bessie (you can have your picture taken
sitting inside her for $5.00) and a merchandise counter.  During the
whole tour there are various recorded sound effects playing in the
background and little speeches by some of the characters topped off
with one by K9.  Many on the full sized mannequins move (in a jerky
sort off way) and K9 performs most of the functions it did on the
show.

Now for the down side. The exhibit is disappointingly small, both in
size and content. The aisles are to small to allow you to see things
full length and the area around K9's case is too small for you to
crouch down next to it for a closer look. There is not one single
prop or costume of the Doctors' (or any other "human" character), no
still pictures showing scenes from shows, nor any attempt at
labeling the displays.  If you were not a Dr. Who fan you would have
no idea what you were seeing!

There is almost no lighting inside the trailer, the aisles are dark
and people trip over one another regularly (it is also impossible to
read the flyer they give you to explain what you are seeing). The
displays are lighted by small spot lights inside the cabinets that
flash on and off. This makes it hard to get a good look at anything
(there was a great debate going as to whether "K9" was painted on
the side of the model. This was finally resolved when someone lit a
match!).

I won't say that you shouldn't waste your time seeing this exhibit,
it may be the only chance you'll ever get to see anything from the
show. But I will admit that if the money hadn't been going to PBS,
I'd have felt I was being ripped off.

Now for the schedule. According to the people behind the counter,
they are not scheduling more than four weeks in advance. Where they
go depends on what PBS station will sponsor them for a week. But for
the next few weeks this is their schedule:

   Sept. 20-21     Rochester, NY
   Sept. 27-28     Cleveland, OH
   Oct.  4-5       Minneapolis, MN
   Oct.  11-12     "somewhere in West Virginia"
   After that      "somewhere south for the winter"

The tour will be on the road for two years and they hope to hit
every city that Dr. Who plays in at least once.

Paul Carnell.
DEC Software Services, Syracuse, NY
UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!usrcv1.dec.com!carnellp
APRA: carnellp%usrcv1.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 15 Sep 1986 08:15:14-PDT
From: routley%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: SF TV Shows

>>Finally, I recall the title music to an SF show, but I'm pretty
>>sure I never watched it.  The opening was animated, and there was
>>a gorilla or monkey in it somehow. The first bit of the opening
>>is:
>>   It's about time
>>   It's about space
>>   It's about men from the human race
>
>The lyrics are from the title tune for IT'S ABOUT TIME, but my own
>dim recollection is that the third line is
>
>    It's about two men in the craziest place.

My recollection might be wrong, but if Kathy's recollection is
correct, then it reinforces mine. I seem to remember a Saturday
morning SF TV show that may have had an ape in it. They had an
Apollo-lander looking spaceship, and they were marooned on this
desert planet. The plot was essentially "Gilligan's Island in
Space", especially since the "two men in the craziest place" were
the very same actors who played Gilligan and the Captain on
Gilligan's Island! None of the other Gilligan's Island actors were
in the show, just (maybe) this monkey. All sorts of stupid
adventures.

Did any of that make sense? It was some (6+ years) time ago, just
guessing.

kevin routley

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 15:25:35 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: SF TV Shows

   The show starred Bob Denver & Chuck McCann. It was called "Far
out Space Nuts". It had to due with two NASA supply workers getting
blasted into space by mistake.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 01:26:04 GMT
From: cae780!alan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF TV Shows

There was another prime-time show in the late 70's called
Project:UFO.  2 Air Force officers (part of Operation Blue Book)
would go investigate UFO sitings.  First, what the witnesses claimed
to see was shown.  Then the investigation began.  The strange thing
was that sometimes the investigators would prove that it was a
very terrestrial event (like a mirror catching sunlight in a certain
way), but other times they would seem to indicate that it was
actually a UFO incident.

Alan Steinberg
textronix!cae780!alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 19:37:11 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Star Trek 20th

Hmm. Was I out of touch, or was there very little fanfare over the
20th anniversary? I heard about an interview on the Today show, and
about a report on the local news, but that doesn't seem like too
much. The local station with STAR TREK rights has relegated it to 7
AM Saturday morning. Well, on the brighter side, STAR TREK the comic
this month had a story where the crew of the Excelsior (they got it
after the Enterprise went bye-bye) meets the crew of the Enterprise
(no comment on method, read it yourself). One problem...  they
MISPRINTED THE DATE! They said it was 9/6. I think in a couple
issues we will be seeing a BIG apology in the lettercol.... Pocket
released Vonda McIntyre's story ENTERPRISE shortly before the
20th...it's about the first mission of Captain Kirk on the
Enterprise. Don't take anything she says for granted, there's a lot
of inconsistent stuff, even leaving out her portrayal of Scotty. The
convention in Boston for the anniversary is in NOVEMBER (!!!!).  I
heard a rumor that the Great Bird was trying to get permission to
show THE VOYAGE HOME there, but I haven't heard anything since. My
own celebration was, rather surprisingly, on the 8th...I showed the
movies, "Balance of Terror", and "City on the Edge of Forever" on a
rented 25" TV. The turnout was decent, about 50 people at its most
crowded. Interesting...nobody would commit themselves on how legal
showing the tapes was. Oh well, that's all for now. And remember, no
matter where you go, there you are. Oops, wrong movie.

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 15:18:40 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vulcan greeting in strange places

Kevin Waugh, (I couldn't get through to you directly)

The vulcan "live long and prosper" hand-sign came from Jewish
ceremony (Nimoy was raised Jewish).  I believe it represents one of
the letters in their alphabet, but I forget.  Nimoy remembered
feeling great power in this sign when seeing it used in ceremonies
as a child, and thus it came to mind when he was trying to think up
a greeting for Vulcans.

Thus what you saw could have seen an incidental Star Trek joke, or
merely a Jewish family instructing their child.

By the way, the nerve pinch was also one of Nimoy's ideas.  A script
called for Spock to deck someone with a right cross, but Nimoy felt
that the peaceful Vulcans, with their superior logic, strength and
concentration, would have found a less violent and
energy-consumptive way to subdue people.  They then developed the
nerve pinch.  Spock has, in following episodes, occasionally used
the old fashioned way when rushed.  Before the action continues,
Kirk usually pauses a moment to rib Spock about it with a quick
comment like "Isn't that a bit barbaric?".

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 86 09:52 CDT
From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: century of Star Trek

Eyal Moses Writes:
> Some more evidence for the 22nd century theory: in "tomorrow is
>Yesterday" when they go back in to the 1960s, and Kirk is captured
>...  One guard yells at him: "We'll send you to jail for the next
>200 years", and he then murmurs "that should be about enough".

I have a different impression on the meaning of that line.  James
Tiberius Kirk has a life span of about 200 years, thus putting him
away for 200 years would "be about enough" to allow him to die
there.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 15:36:36 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Star Trek's Century.

I always understood that in the FORMAT of ST, it was specifically
set in the 23rd century (still roughly consistent with the Space
Seed lines) but the two hundred year imprisonment line is backed up
in another episode. When the Enterprise crew meets Abraham Lincoln,
I believe Scotty refers to the fact the he died "over three hundred
years ago!"  This, of course also places it in the 22nd Century.

Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.CYBER1@ucl-cs.arpa
Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Brad.CYBER1%UKACRL@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 15:07 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: More Old SF on TV

Two more shows had memories just pop into my brain.  (1) Topper (Leo
G.  Carol?)  about a couple of ghosts coming back to liven up the
doings of the man who bought their house after they had died.  Based
on the novel by Thorne Smith.  (2) One Step Beyond.  I was never
clear if this was all suposed to be true or not.  One show I
remember from about that time was about a murderous necklace; it was
a pearl choker....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 86 1747-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #308
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 21 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 308

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 22:00:24 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

I just happen to have a copy of Heinlein's *Expanded Universe* right
at hand; let's look at some of these things in context:

>...These are taken from "Ghastly Beyond Belief", an anthology of
>bad and embarrassing science fiction excerpts.

Can you pass me a reference to this, by the way?  Sounds like fun...
I'm assuming they made the pull out of context, since I can't
believe you'd pull something that low yourself.

>First, from "Pie in the Sky":

Okay, "Pie from the Sky," page 175 Ace edition of *Expanded
Universe.* Let's quote the first couple of paragraphs to start with:

        Since we have every reason to expect a sudden rain of
    death from the sky sometime in the next few years, as a result
    of the happy combination of the science of atomics and the art
    of rocketry, it behooves the Pollyanna Philosopher to add up the
    advantages to be derived from the blasting of your apartment,
    row house, or suburban cottage.
        It ain't all bad, chum.  While you are squatting in
    front of your cave, trying to roast a rabbit with one hand while
    scratching your lice-infected hide with the other, there will be
    many cheerful things to think about, the assets of destruction,
    rather than torturing your mind with thoughts of the good old
    easy days of taxis and tabloids and Charlie's Bar Grill.
    [okay, here it comes....]
        There are so many, many things in this so-termed
    civilization of ours which would be mightily improved by a once
    over lightly of the Hiroshima treatment.  There is that dame
    upstairs, for instance, the one with the square bowling ball.
    Never again would she take it out for practice right over your
    bed at three in the morning.  Isn't that some consolation?
        No more soap operas. No more six minutes of good old Mom
    facing things bravely, interspersed with eight minutes of
    insistent, syrupy plugging for commercial junk you don't want
    and would be better off without. ....
        ... best of all, you will be freed of the plague of the
    alarm.... If you are snapped suddenly out of sleep in the Atomic
    Stone Age, it will be a mountain lion, a wolf, a man, or some
    other carnivore, not a mechanical monstrosity.

It's too much work to copy the rest of the first, sarcastic section
of the article -- but I'll catch a couple of high points:

    o Men who bawl out waitresses
    o The preacher with the unctuous voice and the cash-register
      heart.
    o People who censor plays and supress boooks.

So let's go on to the second part of the article, the part where the
voice changes and he is talking straight:

    ....In spite of the endless list of things that could be made of
    the things we are better off without I do not think it will be
    very much fun to scrabble about in the woods for a bite to eat.
    For that reason I am thinging of liquidating, in advance, the
    next character who says to me, "Well, what difference does it
    make if we are atom-bombed -- you gottas die sometime!"
        I shall shoot him dead, blow through the barrel, and
    say, "You asked for it, chum."

Now for what I think is the clincher: the final paragraphs.

        If you really want to hang on to the advantages of our
    slightly wacky psuedo-civilization, there is just one way to do
    it, according to the scientists who know the most about the new
    techniques of war -- and that is to form a sovereign world
    authority to prevent the Atomic War.
        Run, do not walk, to the nearest Western Union, and
    telegraph your congressman to get off the dime and get on with
    the difficult business of forming an honest-to-goodness world
    union, with no jokers about Big Five vetos or national
    armaments... to get on with it promptly, while there is still
    time, before Washington, D.C., is reduced to radioactive dust,
    poor devil.

These paragraphs PROVE to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that the
person who exerpted that original quote was doing so having either
not read the article, or was *consciously,* *purposefully* trying to
assassinate Heinlein's character.  Why? I don't know: I suspect it
was from some ideological aim, but I don't have enough evidence to
say for sure.  And I know Tim personally -- while he is sometimes
strident, I've never seen him be intellectually dishonest, so I
assume it was not him.

But I'd look really closely at whoever wrote that "Ghastly Beyond
Belief" -- sounds to me like there is a subtext, a reason, behind
the choices.  Might as well claim that Abraham Lincoln was a
Confederate Officer.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 18:29:40 GMT
From: teddy!svb@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen V. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>It is highly questionable whether any quote eight paragraphs long
>can be reasonably said to be "out of context".
>
>YOU LIE!!!  He said that the war would be good for the country in
>the very first paragraph.  What the hell is wrong with you jerks,
>can't you read perfectly plain and straightforward English?  Am I
>to be reduced to simply quoting him again and again while you deny
>that he said what he said in the very clearest possible terms?

What 'he' is being discussed here? Heinlein or Farnham? If it is
Heinlein's essay, then the long quotes previously offered clearly
display the satire that the piece offered. (In this case, "eight
paragraphs" are indeed necessary to convey the complete context.)
If the speaker in question was Farnham, then within the setting of a
piece of _FICTION_, it is stated (post-nuke) that what has happened
_might_ wind up having some beneficial effects. Again, as was
previously stated, the scene was a discussion between a person who
is very depressed (justifiably) and a person who is presented as a
character who will make the best of a situation, i.e., a 'survivor
type', if you will.

Steve Boyle

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 06:34:51 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing
>stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which
>seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole
>counterculture of the hippies of the 60's.

I consider it an over-simplification to label Heinlein's work as
right-wing or otherwise.  True, some critics have labeled Heinlein
as a fascist or worse, but perhaps this is a case of trying to gain
points by attacking the biggest bad guy in town.

Panshin has perhaps one good novel to his name (Heinleinian at
that), and Moorcock is a self-admitted hack...

In a typical novel, Heinlein mixes some of his basic beliefs, and a
handful of speculative notions, extrapolates and presents a possible
result for your consideration.  Now, there's plenty of room for
argument about Heinleins basic beliefs, but it's pretty silly when
people start getting upset about the speculative notions.

There are many authors far more dangerous than Heinlein when it
comes to trying to warp the minds of America by presenting
questionable ideas as as basic premises.  From reading Heinlein, I
find that he has some basic beliefs which tend to remain constant in
his works

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 18:28:53 GMT
From: usl!elg@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Lee Green)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

Someone mentioned Mark Twain. Very fitting reference. Many of
Twain's characters were elitist, racist, etc. Twain used that as a
device to show just how ridiculous it is to hold such views, for
example, two aristocratic-types fight a feud like backwards
hillbillies and have wax fruit on their mantle (presumably, because
they're wax people), Huck Finn treating Jim as property while Jim
would willingly give his life and freedom for Huck, and so forth.
One of Heinlein's characters saying "Oh well, maybe there are some
good uses for nuclear war", and then seeing the eventual results of
such an attitude, seems to be a similiar device.

Eric Green {akgua,ut-sally}!usl!elg
(Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 13:15:26 GMT
From: whuts!orb@caip.rutgers.edu (SEVENER)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more
of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war in
the first place.  The protoganist is praiseworthy for stocking up
with everything from food to encyclopedias to prepare for the
aftermath of World War Last.  His major concern is protecting his
survivalist fiefdom from looting by others who are starving and so
forth.  But that's OK, because we know that it should be "every
*MAN* for himself" after any disaster, right?

"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of
nuclear war whatsoever.  For example, because an all-out nuclear war
would destroy the ozone layer, animals and humans without their eyes
shielded would soon be blinded.  Then of course there is the
likelihood of the Nuclear Winter effect.  Heinlein could be excused
for not mentioning these since both were just discovered in the past
decade.  But then another effect should have been well-known to
Heinlein which he never bothered to deal with in his paean to
"survivalism".  Namely the certainty than any all-out nuclear war
would lead to massive firestorms, leaving those in shelters like
"Farnham's Freehold" to be either cooked alive like those in
Dresden, or else suffocated by the lack of oxygen consumed by such
torrential flames.  It has been a long time since I read "Farnham's
Freehold" but I also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious
effects of radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule
incident compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war, they
have to strip off the top inches of thousands of acres of topsoil
because it is excessively radioactive.  If you strip off the top
inches of fertile topsoil to avoid radioactivity, the soil left will
be practically useless for growing crops.  Nor do I recall Heinlein
talking much at all about radiation sickness, leukemia, cancer, etc.
The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that
nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared
your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you
could make it.  Of course a required part of your survivalist gear
is at least one gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few
surviving humans left and assure your own survival.  I.e. maintain
the same idiotic mentality which has placed us in the current
position of facing the imminent extinction of the human race at any
time!  I would say that as I recall Heinlein's story in "Farnham's
Freehold" that it more closely resembles Reagan's Undersecretary of
Defense, T.K. Jones statement that "we can survive nuclear war with
enough shovels.  Just dig a hole a few feet thick and jump in it."
than any statement by pacifists or even people like Eisenhower or
Khruschev ('the living will envy the dead')

tim sevener
whuxn!orb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 01:15:58 GMT
From: meccts!mvs@caip.rutgers.edu (Michael V. Stein)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's supposed panegyric for the Bomb

I find it a little strange that people are trying to use what an
author has a fictional character say, to indict the author's
character.  Does this mean that, if someone writes a story where a
major character is a terrorist, the author is one also?

If you truely wish to discuss Heinlein's political views, the place
to start would be where Heinlein actually states his views.

To quote from "Expanded Universe" by Robert A. Heinlein, pp.
145-146:

   ...The general public is just as dangerously ignorant as to the
   significance of nuclear weapons today, 1979, as in 1945 - but in
   different ways.  In 1945 we were smugly ignorant; in 1979 we have
   the Pollyannas, and the Ostriches, and the Jingoists, who think
   we can "win" a nuclear war, and the group - a majority? - who
   regard World War III as of no importance compared with inflation,
   gasoline rationing, forced school-busing, or you name it.  There
   is much excuse for the ignorance of 1945; the citizenry had been
   hit by ideas utterly new and strange.  But there is no excuse for
   the ignorance of 1979.  Ignorance today can be charged only to
   stupidity and laziness - both capital offences.

   I wrote nine articles intended to shed light on the
   post-Hiroshima age, and I have never worked harder on any
   writing, researched the background more thoroughly, tried harder
   to make the (grim and horrid) message entertaining and readable.
   I offered them to commercial markets, not to make money, but
   because the only propaganda that stands any chance of influencing
   people is packaged so attractively that editors will buy it in
   the belief that the cash customers will be entertained by it.

   Mine was not packaged that attractively.

   ...

   But I continued to write these articles until the USSR
   rejected the United State's proposals for controlling and
   outlawing atomic weapons through open skies and mutual on-the-
   ground inspection, i.e. every country in the world to
   surrender enough of its sovereignty to the United Nations that
   mass weapons war would become impossible (and lesser war
   unnecessary).

   The USSR rejected inspection - and I stopped trying to peddle
   articles based on tying the Bomb down through international
   policing.

   I wish that I could say that thirty-three years of "peace"
   (i.e. no A- or H- or C- or N- or X bombs dropped) indicates
   that we really have nothing to fear from such weapons, but
   because the human race has sence enough not to commit suicide.
   But I am sorry to say that the situation is even more
   dangerous, even less stable, than it was in 1946

If this isn't proof enough to end this silly charge against
Heinlein, I can quote more.

Michael V. Stein
Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation - Technical Services
UUCP   ihnp4!dicome!meccts!mvs

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 01:33:20 GMT
From: oliveb!jerry@caip.rutgers.edu (Jerry Aguirre)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

I can't represent myself as knowing Heinlein's views on nuclear war
but I think it is important here to not identify a character with
the author.  The character may, at the begining, see nuclear war as
having desirable consequences but the book does NOT.  When they
finally are contacted by and taken into the post war society I think
you will have to agree that it is not represented as an improvement
on current day society.  They are slaves in that society and make
every effort to escape.  (Flash! Heinlein promotes slavery in his
books :-) In fact when that same character is sent back to his own
time he tries to do everythink in his power to change that future.
The book doesn't tell us if he is successful.  This is not exactly
the socio-genetic house cleaning that Farnham predicted.

So, you can either represent Heinlein's views with the statement of
one of the characters or as the overall plot of the book.  Given
that this is a work of fiction it is not reasonable to do either but
certainly the overall plot and ending should be taken as more
representitive of the ideas promoted by the book.  My impression was
that the ending showed the folly of that "survival of the fittest"
attitude.

Quotations of quotations has got to be the height of taking quotes
out of context.  Have you read the books you are quoting or just
someone else's pre-digested interpretation of what they mean?  And
no, Heinlein is not one of my favorite authors.

Jerry Aguirre @ Olivetti ATC
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
   !oliveb!jerry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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Date: 23 Sep 86 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #309
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 309

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 00:01:27 GMT
From: muffy@arisia.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>Then there is, of course, Heinlein's series on the "Methuselah
>Complex" in which a secret group of "genetically superior" people
>who have secretly crossbred to attain incredible lifespans are
>persecuted and envied by the mass of the "genetically inferior".

"genetically superior"?  Hardly.  The assumption was made that long
life was genetic, and could be bred for.  The "Howard Foundation"
proceeded to find people whose grandparents were long-lived and
induced them (with money) to marry each other and have children.
They are only "genetically superior" in whatever gene or genes apply
to long life.  Other than those, they seemed to be pretty normal, or
even worse off than the general population (lots of bad
reinforcements due to inbreeding).  It is true that they were envied
and persecuted by the less long-lived...people are wonderful that
way.

You may enjoy using nice loaded words like "superior" and "inferior"
to magnify the emotional impact (oh, that Heinlein is such an awful
person, saying that there are "genetically superior/inferior"
people, just like racists have done...and so forth), but this need
to rely on the emotional impact in place of the truth makes your
statements less believable.

Muffy
Muffy@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA
muffy@arisia.berkeley.edu
muffy%arisia@Berkeley.EDU
muffy%arisia@ucbjade.BITNET
muffy@lll-crg.arpa
{ihnp4,decvax,decwrl,sun,etc}!ucbvax!arisia!muffy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 23:15:57 GMT
From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi)
Subject: Farnham's Freehold

Here is a quick summary of what I remember of the story from having
read it long ago:

Farnham lives in a city and has a shelter under his house.  Just
before the nuke hits, Farnham and his wife go down to the shelter.
The bomb hits.  They stay in the shelter for some period, not
knowing that they have been bumped into the distant future.  When
they emerge, they discover that the blacks are in power and whites
are kept as slaves.  Unable, after some effort, to housebreak Mr. &
Mrs. Farnham, their masters get rid of them by sending them back in
a time machine.

I have left out some details to save space, and so as not to spoil
the story too much for those who haven't read it.

Now, it most definitely *is* possible for an eight-paragraph quote
to be out of context.  If, for example, Farnham made his little
speech about how nuclear war is good for the country and/or species
while they were huddled in the shelter, then emerged into the future
to have his nose rubbed in reality, it means something quite
different from what you take it to mean.  I suppose that I'll have
to reread the book to find out when Farnham made that speech.

Now, I tend to wonder, Tim, about your motivations...  you could be
harping on this subject in order to force us to check out the facts
and *think*, and if necessary re-evaluate our attitudes towards
Heinlein, and to discourage us from reflexive knee-jerk thinking.
Such an interpretation is suggested by the last paragraph of your
article, which I have included above.

On the other hand, what seems more likely, you could just be
motivated by a dislike for Heinlein or some of his ideas, and you
use out-of-context quotes to make him seem like some kind of
monster, so that people who are not familiar with him will be
discouraged from reading his books.

Regardless of your intentions, your articles are most likely to have
the latter effect...

David Canzi

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 15:39:47 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

>I remember back in the 60's that Ramparts magazine had a number of
>excerpts from Heinlein's remarks in support of Vietnam, nukes, and
>a number of odious positions.  These particular quotes are not the
>only ones in which Heinlein advocates unsavory views.

Good evidence here -- "unsavory views."  Ghod forbid someone should
have unsavory views.

>I recall one of his stories in which he treats very sympathetically
>the carrying of lethal weapons, a more advanced type of gun, and
>conducting regular shootouts with them.  heinlein treated such
>vigilantism as if it promoted some sense of "honor".

yep, he sure did write about people carrying weapons.  It's called
*Beyond This Horizon*, and in it he also promotes such unsavory
views as living together without benefit of marriage, women who
refuse to adapt their professional life to a husband's, governmental
control of the economy, and men wearing mauve nail-polish.

But let's think for a minute -- my handy desk dictionary does not
define "vigilantism" per se, but it does define a vigilante as a
member of a vigilance committee, and further defines a vigilance
committee as "...an informal council exercising police power for the
capture, speedy trial, and summary punishment of criminal
offenders...."

In BTH, the bearing of personal weapons is not part of some
commmittee, and further there are clearly formal methods by which
the law is enforced.  Near the end of the book, citizens are
gathered to fight an armed insurrection, but they are gathered by
the government -- thus they are a militia, not "vigilantes."

And RAH did *not* treat weapon-carrying as promoting a sense of
honor -- there were plenty of dishonorable people carrying guns.
What he *did* treat it as promoting was *courtesy*, which is a
wholly different thing.

>Then there is, of course, Heinlein's series on the "Methuselah
>Complex" in which a secret group of "genetically superior" people
>who have secretly crossbred to attain incredible lifespans are
>persecuted and envied by the mass of the "genetically inferior".

I guess the quotation marks are supposed to tell us that you don't
accept the Howards as genetically superior; but the fact is that
they *are* superior in the special sense that they have long
lifespans.  No other sense, but RAH makes the point more than once
in *Methuselah's Children* that the Howards are *not* superior in
any other sense, vide for example the time when Lazarus Long says
something to the effect of "Bub, you are a perfect demonstration of
why the Foundation should have bred for brains instead of long
life."

If you insist on finding a special meaning for this business of the
Howards, how about as an allegory for the treatment of the Jews by
most of Western Civilization -- a closed group which is envied for
their "superiority" (financial, this time) and driven out by their
more powerful "inferiors."  Hell, RAH even *calls* this "the
Diaspora."

But of course, no "right-winger" would ever write something that
treated a minority group sympathetically, so that can't be it.  Can
it?

>The only of Heinlein's works which contradicts the usual right-wing
>stands of some of his novels is "Stranger in a Strange Land" which
>seemed to me at the time to approach positively the whole
>counterculture of the hippies of the 60's.

Son of a gun.  This right-wing fascist wrote a novel in favor of
free love and group sex and communal living and swimming naked.  How
do you explain that?

First of all, check your dates: Stranger was written in the late
50's and published in 1961 -- he beat the hippies to the punch by 5
years at least.  So he wasn't just *reacting* to the
counter-culture, he was *proposing* a counter-culture.  In fact, he
was proposing one that came close to the late-sixties hippie mode,
which I take it from your posting you approve of.

So, what are these terrible odious views we've seen discussed?

1) A sovreign world-government with the power to stop wars started
by *any* country (non-fiction: "Pie from the Sky"; fiction: *Space
Cadet*, *Rocketship Galileo*, etc.)

2) Government control of the economy: *Beyond This Horizon*.

3) NO Government control of the economy -- in fact, no government at
all: *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress*, others.

4) Violent overthrow of an oppressor: *The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress*, *Between Planets*, the short story "Free Men," and many
others.

5) Professional (wages, promotion, etc) equality of the sexes: *The
Rolling Stones*, *"The Number of the Beast"*, etc....

6) the evil of racial predjudice, and the idea that owning slaves is
inherently corrupting: *Friday*, *Farnham's Freehold*, *Methuselah's
Children*, and others.

7) Free love: the right to love and have sex with whomever is
willing and with whom you care to, not withstanding marital
situation, race, or gender: *Stranger*, *The Moon is a...*,
*Friday*, the last two Lazarus Long books, etc.

8) Incest: Lazarus Long books. (I want a button that says "Lazarus
Long is a motherf---er", [adroitly edited for the children reading
this...].)

Not to mention some trivial things: the essential evil of organized
religion, the foolishness of Fundamentalist Christianity, men
wearing makeup, prostitution as an honorable calling, dressing
sexily because it's nice, and sleeping with your professors.

Okay, I'm tired of this now.  The point is made already, I think:
RAH is one strange kind of right-winger.  So if you all don't like
his views, that's fine -- but let's not make things up, nor edit
RAH's real views, so that he is properly Politically Incorrect so he
can be reviled.  It's not fair, it's not nice, and it make the
refutation too easy -- who likes to shoot at sitting ducks?

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 17:39:54 GMT
From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

Warning: *SPOILERS* of FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD below.

From: orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER):
>I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more
>of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war
>in the first place.  The protoganist is praiseworthy for stocking
>up with everything from food to encyclopedias to prepare for the
>aftermath of World War Last.  His major concern is protecting his
>survivalist fiefdom from looting by others who are starving and so
>forth.  But that's OK, because we know that it should be "every
>*MAN* for himself" after any disaster, right?

   Even though I consider FF to be one of Heinlein's worst books, it
does have an interesting ambiguity. Is Hugh Farnham praisewrothy? On
first inspection he seems a pretty typical Heinlein protagonist:
competent, self-confident, independent, smart and tough. But, what
happens to him? His fancy, expensive bomb shelter gets blown through
time by some unknown side effect of a direct hit. Farnham is saved
not by his own foresight, but by incredible luck.
   When he attempts escape from the tyrannous society he finds in
the future, it's a flat failure. He's caught, and only the
generosity and curiosity of the tyrant allow he and his to
eventually return to their proper time. Not, however, before he also
fails to save his son from castration.
   He's also a failure in his personal life. His wife is a useless
alcoholic, and his son a worm.
   Finally, the typical Heinlein hero ends up very well off by the
end of the book. Head of a company, head of a planet, hero of a war,
whatever. Farnham ends up with a few acres surrounded by barbed wire
and mine fields. Is this a fief, or a prison?
   I don't know what Heinlein intended, but whatever his intent, I
think one can read FF as a story about the limitations of
self-sufficiency and not its virtues.

>"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of
>nuclear war whatsoever.

   I've excised your documentation of this because I agree.  I don't
think FF is in any real sense about nuclear war. The war just sets
the stage for a story that ends up being an allegory of racism, and
a study of extreme individualism, among other things.  It is an
unusually bleak book for RAH, and the protagonist is not a terribly
likable fellow. He's often more querulous than commanding, and lacks
the knack that other Heinlein heroes have for being right when it
counts.  If one must ask what the book's message about nuclear war
is, I think it portrays nuclear war as a very bad idea. But that
message is not central to the story.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 08:12:14 GMT
From: reed!jeanne@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeanne DeVoto)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
[quotes which purportedly "prove" that Heinlein supports nuclear war]

In the words of Spider Robinson, I grow weary of hearing someone I
care about slandered.  Let us examine Tim's charges:

>First, from "Pie in the Sky":
>There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of
>ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the
>Hiroshima treatment.

Tim...this is called *irony*.  The fact that it is not festooned
with :-)'s may have misled you, but if you had bothered to read the
article rather than taking an out-of-context paragraph from some
anthology, I'm sure you would have caught the intended meaning.
Herein the first paragraph of the essay in question (from
_Expanded_Universe_, c. 1980 by Robert A. Heinlein, p175)
   "Since we have every reason to expect a sudden rain of death from
   the sky sometime in the next few years, as a result of a happy
   combination of the science of atomics and the art of rocketry, it
   behooves the Pollyanna Philosopher to add up the advantages to be
   derived from the blasting of your apartment, row house, or
   suburban cottage."
Clearly RAH is in dead earnest here.(:-), for those who, like Tim,
are afflicted with atrophy of the sense of (black) humor.)

>Next, a typically didactic Heinlein monologue from "Farnham's
>Freehold",
[condemnatory quote from critical essay of Michael Moorcock,
followed by dialog between two characters in "FF" in which the hero
states his belief that nuclear war would result in genetic
improvement of the species through culling]

Point the first: the opinions of the characters--even the opinions
of the hero--cannot necessarily be assumed to be identical to the
opinions of the author.  This is a problem seen in a lot of
criticism of fiction, and for some reason it seems to crop up
especially often in discussions of RAH's work.  ***Robert Heinlein
!= Hugh Farnham *** Point the second: which is that Farnham's
statements are perfectly true.  ANY disaster which results in
widespread death and destruction, in which a person can improve
his/her chances of survival by being prepared and otherwise
exercising his/her intelligence, will bring about an increase in the
average intelligence of the affected population.  This is, as
"Barbara" states, elementary genetics.  But it is a far leap from
accepting the idea that nuclear war would select for intelligence to
espousing the proposition that such a war would be a desireable
occurrence, and that's not something I can see either Hugh Farnham
or RAH saying.

So, considering the first point above, what do we *know* of RAH's
opinion?  Here he is, speaking in the first person, in the
introduction to the article titled "Pie in the Sky" from which Tim
quoted:
   "Here are three short articles, each from a different approach,
   with which I tried (and failed) to beat the drum for world peace.
   Was I really so naif that I thought that I could change the
   course of history this way?  No, not really.  But, damn it, I had
   to try!"
   (quoted from _Expanded_Universe_, pp146-147)
This is *not* some critic's speculation on what RAH *really* meant,
*not* Tim Maroney's interpretation of RAH, *not* what some fictional
character said...this is straight from the horse's mouth, circa
1980.

The defense rests.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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Date: 23 Sep 86 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #310
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 310

Today's Topics:

           Miscellaneous - Tickets to the Moon & Filks &
                  Religion in SF & Who is Han Gyodon? &
                  Tidal Forces (3 msgs) &
                  Conventions (2 msgs) & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 86 16:41:27 GMT
From: mplvax!rec@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Pan AM tickets - to the moon

When I joined the Science Fiction Book Club in the mid 50's I
received a certificate from them guaranteeing me a ticket on the
first commercial flight to the moon whatever the cost.

Back then it was a safe offer. They had what certainly looked like a
solid legal agreement drawn up and printed on a very nice looking
certificate.

I still have it stored in my parents cellar along with my priceless
copies of Galaxy, F&SF etc. from the 50's.

I wonder every once in a while if it really was a legal offer and
how many other mad collectors saved their copies???

richard currier
marine physical lab
u.c. san diego
{ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 86 05:57:47 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Compass Rose/Filk

As a filker and a friend of the folks in Compass Rose, I feel
obligated to reply...

>...  Will someone on the net please tell me WHY, O GOD, WHY?  they
>had filkers on for the "intermission"?

Because a good musical group is a very sensible thing to put on
during intermission.  As it happens, Compass Rose had not expected
to perform at Worldcon until fairly shortly before the con; another
better known group pulled out, leaving the Concom stuck.  That was
Compass Rose's first public appearance, and under the circumstances
(a lot of time to fill, and an inevitably restless audience) I'd say
they did not do badly.  Of course, if the only music you like is,
e.g., acid rock, then there wasn't much they (or the concom) could
do, was there?

>Have you ever known a filker who didn't get serious about their
>stuff in the first ten minutes

In the first ten minutes of what?  Of a concert set?  Yes, I have.
Frank Hayes comes to mind; the man only KNOWS two serious songs...

>and then proceed to go on and on and on and on...

Well, there are some filkhogs who do, but most filkers I've
encountered are pretty courteous, and if performing a set for an
audience will stick close to whatever time limits they're given.
Compass Rose, naturally, had to keep going till the judges came
back, and then they left quite promptly....

>After the Compass Rose started sounding like old time Gospel
>quartets then our whole party left In Search Of parties.)

The only group I've EVER seen hold the attention of an entire
Masquerade audience for the entire intermission was the Flying
Karamatzov Brothers (Ho!) at a westercon a few years back.  And
that's quite an act for non-professional entertainers to follow....

TO NETTERS WHO WERE AT WORLDCON: I will be happy to pass on any
comments (even complaints! :-) about Compass Rose or other worldcon
filk to the parties involved.  E-mail to me direct, please...

Jordin Kare
jtk@s1-c.ARPA
jtk@mordor.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Sep 86 16:00:01-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: religion in SF
To: ucmp-cs!mangoe@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

I finally figured out why I was so bothered by Charley Wingate's
message on religion in SF (and Clarke in particular).  Allow me to
paraphrase somewhat:

   I'm almost always interested in science and morality as subjects
   of religious writing, and I've followed the bible ever since it
   was available to me.  Natural events and morality are frequent
   themes in the bible.  Unfortunately, there is a streak of naivete
   in this book which tends to position it in a state of
   oversimplification.
        :
        :
   Generally, people reading books like this for the science or
   moral content ought to remember that they are being sold a bill
   of goods.  Religion is in a fundamental way based on unreality.
   One's critical antennae should be fully active, and the proper
   reading mode should be one of a certain skepticism.  It should
   also be remembered that science or morality is not a single
   thing, nor is either a scale.  Read in this way, I don't think a
   work of fiction presents any grave danger, and I myself find the
   differing viewpoints stimulating (although in all fairness, there
   are a lot of things I would rather only read once).  It's
   uncritical reading, without any attempt at context or contrast,
   which is intellectually dangerous-- not because it causes
   thinking, but because it creates the illusion of thought, when
   really all that is happening is reaction.  There's no virtue in a
   biologist picking up the bible, reading it, and simply abandoning
   his "obselete" belief in evolution.  Likewise, there's no virtue
   in prayer as a flight from medicine.  There's no thought
   involved; it's all just emotional reaction against one's
   supposedly more childish state.  One unthinking position is
   merely traded for another, with all the same flaws (and usually,
   the added fault of pseudosophistication).

   By the same token, a lot of people, particularly children at
   various stages of life, simply aren't prepared to approach these
   books with the proper sort of critical attitude.  Back when I was
   younger and read the bible, I simply did not appreciate the
   casual sexism and often racism that permeates much of this book.
   If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I would discourage
   them from reading a lot of the same books, because they would be
   most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were reading and
   reject what was racist or sexist in the writing.  So in that
   sense there is some purpose for review boards, as long as their
   purpose is not intellectual purity.

So how many people wait until their kids are old enough to evaluate
what they are being taught before they start feeding them a
religion?  There is a lot to be said for "most people believe such
and such, and that is how we have brought you up, but there are many
other ideas in the world that are interesting and of value.  Why
don't you read this book "Atlas Shrugged", and then we can talk
about what it is trying to say...

BillW

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 86 13:24:25 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Who is...
From: "Michael_Bowen.ESXC16"@Xerox.COM

Han Gyodon? Where did (he) come from? All I know is that this sea
creature make interesting little stationery. He's obviously
Japanese.  What are his origins?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 03:35:38 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies.

The principle that Niven exploits is by no means exotic; gravity
gradient stabilization has been used on many satellites.  Herewith a
few examples:

(1) The oldest example is natural: the moon.  Pre-apollonian studies
of the moon by satellites revealed that the mass distribution of the
moon is decidedly assymetrical; the center of mass is displaced
towards the earth.  This is why the seas are on the near side, and
my the near side always faces us.  THe same phenomenon shows up in
the Gallilean moons of Jupiter, and Mercury shows the related
phenomenon of spin-orbit coupling.

(1) APL/JHU during the course of the Transit program (Which is an
interesting exercise in physics, by the way-- determining position
through dopler shifts of satellite signals) decided that they wanted
directional antennas which pointed at the earth to save power
consumption, and they wanted to avoid active controls.  They decided
on gravity gradient stabilization.  Now the tricky part is getting
rid of the unwanted angular momentum.  For a moon, tidal heating
will do the trick (and also for something close to a neutron star).
The method used in the Transit satellites was to have a weight on a
weak and very lossy spring; the spring was encased in biphenyl,
which sublimed slowly, releasing the spring gradually.  A testbed
satellite TRAAC was partially successful in demonstrating the
technique, and it was employed in all later satellites in the
series.

(3) A satellite named DODGE was built to see if the technique could
be made to work at geosynchronous altitudes.  It turned out that
achieving real accuracy in orientation was not possible due to the
magnitude of the perturbations, but DODGE is remembered for another
achievement: it transmitted the first color pictures of the whole
globe, some of which appeared in _National Geographic_ (Nov. 1967).

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 05:19:32 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies.

My previous article erroneously indicated that it was the mass
assymetry of the moon that is responsible for the orientation.  In
fact it is the aspherical shape that does it; the moon is longest in
the axis pointing towards the earth.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 22:20:09 GMT
From: celerity!ron@caip.rutgers.edu (Ron McDaniels)
Subject: Re: Tidal Forces - alignment of long bodies.

ijk@mtung.UUCP (Ihor Kinal) writes:
>Seeing all the articles on tidal forces caused me to remember the
>story by Larry Niven called, I belived, "Neutron Star."  There, the
>hero went around a neutron star and was subjected to very intense
>tidal forces.  The ship was forced to point directly in the
>direction of the star.  When I tried to figure out the forces
>involved (versus a perpendicular configuration), cI got bogged down
>in the math.  I then looked at the problem differently, and by
>using the gravity potential, convinced myself that the said
>configuration was indeed the minimum energy one, and that the story
>was indeed correct (at least on that aspect).

Not particularly surprising that the story was correct. Niven and
Pournelle ( also Robert Forward of Dragon's Egg fame) use one Dan
Alderson as their technical consultant for such matters of gravity.
Mr.  Alderson (of NASA/JPL) is probably one of the world's formost
authorities on orbital mechanics and is a personal friend of the
aforementioned authors. Mr. Alderson has appeared in several
Niven/Pournelle novels. He is (was) the diabetic JPL scientist in
Lucifer's Hammer and the character "Noresdal" in the pulp epic,
Exiles to Glory.

I will forever be greatful to Mr. Alderson for introducing me to
Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf and the crew (many years ago).

R. L. (Ron) McDaniels
CELERITY COMPUTING
9692 Via Excelencia Way
San Diego, California 92126
(619) 271-9940
{decvax || ucbvax || ihnp4 || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ron

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 21:35:00 GMT
From: mcdaniel@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Western cons?

Preface: A while back, I was bumped from a Piedmont flight and got a
free ticket voucher, which expires April 1, 1987.  Piedmont flies to
San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Denver, along with many midwest and
east-coast cities (and towns and hamlets and hovels and cow pastures
and ...).

Request: do you know of cons taking place in SF, LA, or Denver
before April 1?  I'm looking for hotel space (with the usual even
cost division -- credit references on request :-) ).  I'd like to
sightsee around one of the cities before or after the con (one day,
maybe two).  motssers' replies especially welcome.

Thanks!

Tim McDaniel
(Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign)
Arpa: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Csnet: mcdaniel%uicsrd@uiuc.csnet
Usenet: ...{cmcl2|seismo|pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!uicsrd!mcdaniel

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 22:13:03 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: INCONJUNCTION LUCKY 7

INCONJUNCTION LUCKY 7:  July 3, 4, 5 1987

Adam's Mark Hotel, Indianapolis, Indiana

GUESTS OF HONOR:  Jack Williamson--SF GoH
                  andrew offutt---Fantasy GoH
                  "Lan" Laskowski-Fan GoH
                  arlan andrews---Toastperson

Hoping also to get:  Timothy Zahn
                     Michael Kube-McDowell
                     Michael Banks
                     Mike Resnick
                     J. N. Williamson
                     Joe Patrouch
                     Joe Hensley
                     900+ fans

More details later.

arlan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 86 21:05:26 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Time travel

> todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM ( - Bill)
>
> once the time extent IS included, mass/energy within
> the resulting enlarged context remains a conserved quantity.
>
> there may already be support for a looser interpretation - if not
> for discontinuous displacement, then at least for continuous
> retrograde displacement (videlicet time symmetries for
> electrons/positrons as a single particle with two opposing
> temporal vectors).

But note... when such a particle changes timewise direction
pastward, energy is released, and when direction is changed
futureward, energy is consumed.  Thus, in any timelike slice of the
universe, energy is conserved, not just for space-time as a whole.
So Feynman diagrams aren't support for the notion of mass-energy
conservation only applying to space-time instead of space.  (Not
that this notion is ruled out, mind you... just that this view of
antimatter isn't support for it.)

> We are no more disturbed by the circular nature of its temporal
> movement than we would be if it were moving in a spatially
> circular motion on a turntable

But this doesn't address the *major* difference between the cases
brought up, in particular that one is a spiral in space-time, and
the other is a closed loop.  Granted, taking a coin and sending it
into the past multiple times is an analogy for a point on the rim of
a turntable.  The point goes past a given spot in space N times, and
the coin goes past a given spot in time... er... well... "N spaces",
right?  (In any event, at a given point in time you see N coins).

But neither of these involve a closed loop.  There is no space-like
analogy for such a closed loop, unless there are other time-like
meta-dimensions as implied in many time-traveling stories, such as
in Asimov's _The_End_of_Eternity_ and others.

> (it's not at all clear that such physics allows "free will" - but
> then it's not at all clear that CURRENT physics does either).

One notion that is used to elaborate the notion of time-travel in a
few cases is "observer created reality".  That is, the future (and
perhaps even the past) is not only unknown, but *doesn't* *exist*
until it is "traveled to" or observed.  Then it is fixed.  This is
in analogy to the way a particle in QM doesn't *have* (say) a
position until the position is measured.  The act of *observing* the
future (or traveling there) *creates* it, and once created, it is
immutable.  The more folks travel around in time, then, the less
"free will" for everybody.

Not that this notion makes much more sense than many others
regarding time travel... but interesting nevertheless, I suppose.
And these two points are the major factors in my perception of time
travel stories in sf.  Most of these don't make much sense, often
very little indeed.  But there is something primally interesting
about the notion of time travel, so on this account we are
continually inundated with ill-thought-out scenarios.  Sigh.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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Date: 24 Sep 86 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #311
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Sep 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 311

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 20:26:24 GMT
From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea)
Subject: Re: I like STARSHIP TROOPERS

After reading the postings on this subject (and printing them--a
*large* file), I begin to wonder whether this culture or humanity is
really worth preserving.  Sure, there are lots of good things that
Man has done, and I feel that it can be a really neat thing to be a
human on Terra.  Then somebody comes along who hasn't checked all
the sources and (especially bad) thought things through completely
(thinking must be too much *work* for some people), and starts up
those thoughts of "what's the use" inside my head.  Oh, well.

I'm not flaming anyone specifically, just a certain class of person.

I've read just about everything that RAH has written, and I don't
think that he supports Nuclear War.  He does support some of the
good things that human beings have come up with: honesty, loyalty,
attention to duty, and trying to be the best that one can.  Is this
bad?

Brent Woods
USENET:   {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh
ARPANET:  woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM
PHONE:  (317) 495-2011
USNAIL:   Brent Woods
          Box 1004 Cary
          West Lafayette, IN  47906

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 86 14:04 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein and Nuclear war

In the discussion about Farnham's Freehold, the sense I get from the
dialogue given in the previous message is that the character Hugh is
not so much for nuclear war, but for the changes that the war
brought, i.e.  get rid of the sheep, put a little struggle into the
game, in order to bring the elements of evolution as it involves
humans.  In other books of Heinlein's, this same theme (a frontier
for human evolution) has been presented with space exploration as
the dangerous factor (many books, but Time Enough for Love for
example).

In some ways, I feel somewhat similar, though nuclear war is out.
At present, the great challenge in life is making it through the
week so that you can go home and drink beer all weekend.  (Well,
forr many Americans anyway).

Another factor in the Farnham's Freehold story is that it was
written back in the sixties (or was it fifties) when nuclear was
still thought to be survivable.  (Though Reagan and his friends
still seem to think it is, with their talk of winnable nuclear war,
and plans for WW IV, which is supposed to take place immediately
after WW III.)  Well anyway.  I don't want to necessarily defend
Heinlein per se or the character of Hugh, but to present at least
another interpretation.

Brett

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 06:52:38 GMT
From: chapman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>But then another effect should have been well-known to Heinlein
>which he never bothered to deal with in his paean to "survivalism".
>Namely the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to
>massive firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's
>Freehold" to be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else
>suffocated by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential
>flames.  It has been a long time since I read "Farnham's Freehold"
>but I also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects
>of radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule
>incident compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war, they
>have to strip off the top inches of thousands of acres of topsoil
>because it is excessively radioactive.  If you strip off the top
>inches of fertile topsoil to avoid radioactivity, the soil left
>will be practically useless for growing crops.  Nor do I recall
>Heinlein talking much at all about radiation sickness, leukemia,
>cancer, etc.

I believe that Heinlein sidestepped this whole issue in one of the
basic premises of the story.

If I remember correctly, Farnham & Co. survived _because_ they were
basicly at ground zero for a blast, which conveniently knocked them
several hundred (thousand?) years into the future.

Without this convenient little "trick", there would have been no
story.

Brent Chapman
chapman@cory.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!cory!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 09:01:03 GMT
From: watdcsu!dmcanzi@caip.rutgers.edu (David Canzi)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more
>of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war
>in the first place.  The protoganist is praiseworthy for stocking
>up with everything from food to encyclopedias to prepare for the
>aftermath of World War Last.  His major concern is protecting his
>survivalist fiefdom from looting by others who are starving and so
>forth.

It's things like this that make me suspect that maybe Ayn Rand was
right about altruism.  This is what you seem to believe, based on
the above:

Any effort spent trying to save yourself by preparing to survive a
nuclear war is immoral, because it could have been spent trying to
save everybody by trying to prevent a nuclear war.  After the war,
many people will be wandering around starving.  You are supposed to
share your food with them, thus hastening the day when you will run
out of food.  Better that *everybody* should starve *equally*,
rather than having some survive and others starve, eh?  Apparently,
Miss Rand's description of altruism is *not*, after all, a straw
man.

>But that's OK, because we know that it should be "every *MAN* for
>himself" after any disaster, right?

It's completely unimportant what *should* be; what *is* is all that
matters.  If it will be every man for himself, one would be foolish
not to prepare for it.

You emphasized the word "man" in "every *MAN* for himself".  I take
this as evidence that you can't prove that Heinlein is a sexist, and
therefore you must resort to sleazy insinuations.

>"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of
>nuclear war whatsoever.  [omitted] Heinlein could be excused for
>not mentioning these since both were just discovered in the past
>decade.

So, why did *you* bother mentioning them?

[Various other possible effects of nuclear war omitted for brevity]

>The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that
>nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared
>your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you
>could make it.

I take it you object to, probably, both of the following:
(1) The idea that one can survive.
(2) The idea one should act to save oneself when others are going
        to die.

I'm undecided as to the possibility of survival, but if enough
irrational people claim that I can't survive, it will be very
difficult for me to avoid taking it as evidence that I can.

As I recall, Farnham wasn't the only person in the shelter, but
still, he could only shelter a small number of people.  If I
understand your morals correctly, you believe that it is better for
everybody to be equally dead than for some people with foresight to
live.  More altruism.

>Of course a required part of your survivalist gear is at least one
>gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few surviving humans left
>and assure your own survival.  I.e. maintain the same idiotic
>mentality which has placed us in the current position of facing the
>imminent extinction of the human race at any time!

It's a common assumption, in post-holocaust stories, that survivors
will *need* a gun to defend themselves from those sufficiently
hungry to kill people and eat them.  You believe, perhaps, that it
is morally a better thing to let the needy eat you?  Altruism again.

David Canzi

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 15:49:33 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
>> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
>> The quote explores the hypothesis that a nuclear war would cull
>>the "unfit", and that hardy, freedom loving folk might selectively
>>survive.  (Even so, it is worth noting that again he did *not* say
>>that the net effect would be beneficial.)

Good greif, Tim.  Take it easy.  You're getting spittle all over
your terminal.  And you're wrong on this point, to boot.  First,
very trivially, almost every time Hugh Farnham proposes a "benefit"
of nuclear war, he equivocates, saying "could be", "might be", and
so on.  And every time Tim requotes (other than the reproduction of
the quote from the book), Tim removes these equivocations.  So, in a
trivial sense, I am not lying, and Hugh didn't say what Tim keeps
saying he said.  More fundamentally, the analysis that Hugh uses to
show his hypothesized "benefit" makes it clear that he is comparing
nuclear war to some *other* disaster that would kill hundreds of
millions of people.  Thus, he is talking about a *relative* benefit
of a disaster that kills millions of "unfit" people relative to
killing millions of people completely at random.

Further, my subsequent argument didn't depend on my parenthetical
remark about what Hugh Farnham was saying.  That argument is just as
valid if we assume that Tim is right about Hugh's statements, which
was why I made it a parenthetical remark in the first place, and
*not* part of my argument.  Let's see what Tim left out of his
"rebuttal".

> It is highly questionable whether any quote eight paragraphs long
> can be reasonably said to be "out of context".

Hardly.  It is *trivial* to show that this quote was butchered by
removal from its context, and that Hugh Farnham is *not* Heinlein's
mouthpiece character in this quote.  First, the context is a novel
that details in no uncertain terms the evil results of a nuclear
war.  The few survivors, we find out, are enslaved and bred for
docile servility, sex, and meat for hundreds of years.  The quote
stating that the US might reap some benefit comes before this result
is revealed, and is thus out of its proper context.  Second, since
the events in the book are controlled directly by Heinlein, when
what some character says conflicts with those events, that character
cannot be echoing Heinlein's thoughts.  The "benefits" Hugh Farnham
hypothesizes (mostly increased intelligence and freedom for the
survivors) are *directly* and *repeatedly* contradicted by the
subsequent events.  Hugh Farnham *clearly* erected a straw man,
which Heinlein then demolishes in the remainder of the novel.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 14:53:20 GMT
From: savax!royer@caip.rutgers.edu (royer)
Subject: Re: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

Let's try and separate our *CURRENT* understanding of the effects of
nuclear war from those accepted at the time this book was written.
When Heinlein wrote "Farnham's Freehold", the prevailing wisdom
really was that all we had to do was hole up and wait it out and
we'd be OK.  The book actually advances the idea that that wasn't
so, that there were things about civilization that really were
necessary to support life as we knew it.

"Farnham's Freehold" is a very depressing book, especially when
compared with other Heinlein work.  If he wrote it now and included
things like nuclear winter, etc, I'm not sure what would come out.

> I would say that as I recall Heinlein's story in "Farnham's
> Freehold" that it more closely resembles Reagan's Undersecretary
> of Defense, T.K. Jones statement that "we can survive nuclear war
> with enough shovels.  Just dig a hole a few feet thick and jump in
> it."  than any statement by pacifists or even people like
> Eisenhower or Khruschev ('the living will envy the dead')

If you feel that way, it would be better to sum it up saying that T.
K. Jones holds an attitude which is thirty or so years out of date
(about as old as "Farnham's Freehold") and not to extrapolate that
feeling to Mr. Heinlein.

Tom Royer
Sanders Associates
MER24-1283, CS2034
(603)-885-9171
Nashua, NH  03061-2034

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 23:32:20 GMT
From: ptsfd!djo@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb



Tim Maroney writes:
>Heinlein was clear; he did not dryly note a few positive effects;
>he stated outright that the nuclear war was "good for the country".
>Go back and check the quote if you don't believe me (and I'll grant
>you, it's hard to believe).  He then went on to say that it had
>"turned the tide" toward the triumph of freedom, and that the net
>effect would be to "improve the breed".  Not hesitantly, not dryly,
>not in passing - Heinlein states outright and enthusiastically that
>nuclear war would be a wonderful thing!
>
>I know Heinlein is probably one of your heroes, Mr. Berch, but you
>simply must face facts.  The book says what I quoted it as saying,
>not what you would like it to have said.

Nor does it say what you would like it to have said.  The book does
not say that the war is a good thing; it says (quoting from memory)
that the war may have been good for the country.  May have is a
subjunctive that casts a possible doubt on all that follows; and
good for the country is not an absolute "good" (unless you suggest
that the author of, among other things THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS,
THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST ("we put no faith in princes"), and FRIDAY
regards the good of any one political unit as an absolute good).

Semantic analysis can go only so far, of course, and next I will
suggest that while Farnham meant all he said, _Heinlein_ is speaking
ironically.

And "Pie in the Sky" is even more unambiguous:
>"There are so many, many things in this so-termed civilization of
>ours which would be mightily improved by a once over lightly of the
>Hiroshima treatment."  You can twist and turn and try to divert the
>issue into long lists of irrelevant Heinlein statements on other
>matters (which you did, and which I have omitted), but these are
>the things he said, and you can't change that by wishing it away.

And that passage is precisely where I claim Heinlein is being
ironic.  It is the classic form of irony -- indeed, to speak in such
a blithe and childish manner, of such a serious subject, is one of
the classic markers of irony.  If the irony is not obvious, blame
your lack of classical education, not Heinlein.

Not that I suggest that Heinlein is entirely sarcastic; no, this is
the much more difficult trope of irony; Heinlein is indeed saying
that there are a great many things wrong with modern civilization.

But the main problem is that you seem not to have read the essay.

Heinlein goes on to name several of the things that the "Hiroshima
treatment" would free us from -- then goes on to name a greater
number of awfulnesses that would result from it.  If you had read
the damn essay, you would know that it was intended to wake people
up, to tell them that they'd damn well better do something to
PREVENT an atomic war.

But, no.  You, who are full of accusations of hero-worship, took the
quotation directly out of context as it was presented to you, and
believed those who told you how it was intended.

Think for yourself, buddy.  That's what Heinlein's been trying to
tell us all for years and years -- and that's what politicians, on
BOTH sides, left and right, don't want us to do.

Come on...  Please...

djo@ptsfd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Sep 86 1114-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #312
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 312

Today's Topics:

      Television - Anderson (4 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica &
              Macross & Powers of Matthew Star & The Prisoner &
              Science Fiction Theater & Star Maidens &
              Star Trek (2 msgs) & Terrahawks (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 86 20:10:39 GMT
From: aplvax!mae@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Answers to UFO and Thunderbirds questions

Ray's (CARON@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU) question from sf-lovers:
> I remember a show call _U.F.O._ when I was much younger, does
> anyone remember the show, the cast members?  I think the bad guys
> organization was something like "SHADO"?  Any help will be
> appreciated.

   You've got that backwards - the GOOD guys organization was SHADO
- Supreme Headquarters, Alien Defense Organization (classic case of
the words being invented to fit the acronym).  UFO was made for
British TV in 1969 by Gerry Anderson, his first live action show
after ~10 years of puppets.  It only lasted one season.  When
Anderson went to his financial backer, Lew Grade, to propose a
sequel, Grade wanted something "bigger" to sell to the US, a show
that wasn't set on Earth, so Anderson made Space:1999 instead.

   Main characters were the SHADO operatives, the aliens were almost
never seen.  In addition to the underground headquarters under the
Harlington-Straker film studio, SHADO had a moon base with armed
interceptors, SkyDiver submarines, aircraft and mobile units, and
SID, the Space Intruder Detector, an early warning satellite.  All
this without the public knowing they existed!  One episode included
flash- backs to the establishment of SHADO by the U.N.

Cast:
Commander Ed Straker - Ed Bishop
Col. Alec Freeman - George Sewell
Col. Paul Foster - Michael Billington
Col. Virginia Lake - Wanda Ventham
Capt. Peter Karlin (SkyDiver) - Peter Gordino
Lt. Gay Ellis (Moonbase) - Gabrielle Drake
Joan Harrington (Moonbase) - Antonia Ellis
Nina Barry (Moonbase) - Dolores Mantez
Mark Bradley (interceptor pilot) - Harry Baird
Gen. Henderson - Grant Taylor
Dr. Jackson - Vladek Sheybal

From jrw@hropus.UUCP (Jim Webb)
Questions on Anderson's "Supermarionation" shows:
> about this family how lived on this island and had all these
> rockets and aircraft that were numbered.  One of them was this
> sort of flying box car that could carry differing payloads in its
> belly.  It stood over a moving conveyer belt that moved the
> various pods under- neath.  Another rocket shot out from under
> their swimming pool, that slid aside to allow it to shot past.

This one is Thunderbirds.  There were also two Thunderbirds feature
films, Thunderbirds Are Go! and Thunderbird 6.  These show up on tv
occasionally.

> This show also had a "CloudBase" or something with female rocket
> fighter pilots, or was that another show?

Different show - Captain Scarlet.

Many of Anderson's shows have been syndicated recently (within the
last 5 years) as a movie package.  Episodes of selected shows are
cut together to make 1.5 - 2 hour "movies".  There is one for
Thunderbirds (Thunderbirds to the Rescue), one for Stingray
(Incredible Voyage of Stingray), one for UFO (Invasion: UFO), and
several from Space:1999.  The UFO movie is a poorly combined mix of
the first episode, "Identified", and parts of two later episodes,
"Reflections in the Water" and "Computer Affair"

Mary Anne Espenshade
{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae
mae@aplvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 86 00:36:26 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael Brothers)
Subject: UFO

Yeah! UFO was a pretty neat show. Ignoring the fact that they showed
the same scenes of exploding aliens again and again and again....

There were interspersed among the usual bang-bang episodes some
really well written ones with some truly weird and surreal effects.
I haven't seen an episode for about 10 years or so, but I remember a
"werewolf" episode and a bizarre time-travel episode as unusually
noteworthy.  And Ed Straker was a rather cool guy. A kind of William
Buckley version of Buckaroo Banzai. I liked the fact that he had a
past, with the tragedy over his kid, etc, rather than just being
some boring old hero.

I liked those cars, too. Like DeLoreans, kinda. The submarine was
dumb, and so were the space interceptors, but hey, it was quality
effects for the time; I can't think of any better models used until,
say, Star Wars, which was on a budget probably several orders of
magnitude greater.

Does anyone know where videotapes of the show can be had?

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 15:55:54 BST (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Old SF TV.

   UFO was quite popular over here in Britain, to the extent of toys
being made of the ships which dealt with the UFOs (These were called
Interceptors, by the way.) The special effects were quite good.  I
think the series was made by the same people who made Space:1999
(which I long for re-runs of.)

   The guy in charge of the UFO operation was played by Ed Bishop.
I think the organisation he worked for was called SHADOW, but I
can't remember what this stands for.

   In the "Star Trek Compendium" Allan Asherman mentions another SF
series from the early 1950's called Rocky Jones:Space Ranger.
Anybody out there remember this show?

Silas

P.S.  Trivia: Did you know that Martin Landau (Commander Koenig from
Space:1999 was originally considered for the role of Mr.  Spock?

Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.CYBER1@ucl-cs.arpa
OR
Silas_Snake%UK.AC.Brad.CYBER1%UKACRL@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 07:54:33 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: Old SF-TV (Thunderbirds)

>Trivia Questions -
> o  Who was Lady Penelope?

     She was the EXTREMLY wealthy relative of Captain Tracy (His
Sister?) and lived on her estate in England.

> o  What make was her car ?
     It was a Rolls-Royce, but I do not remember the year.

> o  What colour was it ?
     My good man, it was pink!

> o  What else was unusual about it ?
     Besides having every gadget seen in a James Bond film, it had
NO bar! (It was a family show...)

victoro

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 20:56:59 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Cotton)
Subject: Re: Lost in Space

andrew@hammer.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) writes:
>>"In Battlestar Galactica, the super-cylon set to advise Baltar had
>>a very familiar voice - that of the man you love to hate, Jonathan
>>Harris, aka Dr. Smith."
>
>It was Patrick Macnee (sp?), he of the bowler and brollee on "The
>Avengers," who later played an antichrist figure on B. G.

True, Patrick Macnee (sp?) did play the super-cylon (the only (?)
organic Cylon).  He also provided the narration during the opening
credits.  However, after Baltar came to power, he had a Cylon
advisor who was a robot (but different from the others) played by -
you guessed it - Jonathan Harris.

Eric Cotton
UUCP: {ihnp4|allegra|seismo|pyramid!amiga}!cbmvax!eric
ARPA: cbmvax!eric@seismo
US mail: Commodore Technology / 1200 Wilson Drive
         West Chester, PA 19380
phone: (215) 431-9180

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 86 21:54:48 GMT
From: helm!eric@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: 4th Epic RobotTech(Macross)

Does any one know if the Fourth Epic is being ported to the US?  I
had heard out at Origins that One of the Cable oriented networks
(Tbs or Usa) had picked up exclusive rights. But as of yet I haven't
Heard Hide nor Hair of it. Also if you do know, would you also know
if the episodes have been mutilated by our friends at harmony gold
or will they be left basicaly intact? Please respond Via E-Mail,
Also if you have any of the original (un-harmonized) episodes on
tape (in Japanese of course) or possibly even Macross movie (the
last one) And you are interested in trading, let me know.

Eric Hyman  @  HELM
(516)-694-5320
philabs!sbcs!helm!eric

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 23:58:06 GMT
From: mtgzz!eme@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Mathew Star or Star Prince was Re: SF-TV programs

>I think the name of the show was Star Prince. It lasted for about
>1/2 a season. I don't remember who played the lead. But I think I
>remember seeing Amy Steel play his girlfriend, and Lou Gossett
>playing his mentor. It had a few god moments, but mostly it wasn't
>anything special.

Sorry I can't remember the name but I do believe that it was on
longer than 1/2 a season.  The first season was about the prince and
mentor getting themselves established on Earth.  The prince's father
was in the process of being overthrown on a world which was much
more advanced than Earth.  For safety, the prince was sent with his
mentor (an old family retainer) to Earth to hide.  I vaguely
remember that a big deal was made about the sacrifices made by other
nobles to provide the prince with an escape, and hadn't he better
try harder to appear like a normal earthling so he didn't blow thier
cover.  I think only the royal family was suppose to have the powers
he exhibited.  The second season was about a government agent finding
out about them and threatening to blow their cover if they didn't do
occasional jobs for them, which got the prince and mentor into all
kinds of interesting situations involving exposing spies and
kidnappers.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 01:51:35 GMT
From: c55-ar@buddy.Berkeley.EDU (Roderick Manalac)
Subject: Re: Old SF-TV Shows

Does the Prisoner, the British TV mini-series which starred Patrick
McGooan count as SF?  Does anybody remember the series?  I know it's
shown every once in a while on PBS.  (KTEH Channel 54 in San Jose is
currently running the series in what they feel is the correct
order).  Anybody have any theories about who ran The Village (some
think it's the Illuminati)?  Thanx.

------------------------------

Date: 15-Sep-1986 1957
From: cantor%derep.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Dave C., 226-7726, LKG1-3/A06)
Subject: Re Science Fiction Theater (11:284)

Kenn Goutal (sii!kgg@caip.rutgers.edu) asks re Science Fiction
Theater:

>Now for the triva [sic] question (to which I do not know the
>answer): What was the name of the host, who ended each show with
>"Our story, of course, is fiction; but the scientific principles
>are real." (or something close to that), and: "Until then, this is
>your host, _______, saying ``See you next week''".

Truman Bradley was the host (but I may the spelling of his name
wrong).  Oh wow, I can still hear the theme song way in the back of
my head.  Thanks for the reminder.

Dave Cantor

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Sep 1986 00:25:55-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: TV SF (STAR MAIDENS)

From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
> When I was in Korea in 1978 (courtesy of the U.S. Army) there was
> one english-speaking station (AFKN). AFKN ran a British-made SF
> television series that was sooooo bad I'm not surprised that it
> hasn't been seen here.  This series was called _STAR_MAIDENS_....

I can confirm that it exists, though I haven't seen any of its
episodes. There was at least one novelization from the series that I
have in a British paperback. I haven't had the fortitude to read it,
though.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 06:45:40 GMT
From: osi3b2!james@caip.rutgers.edu (James R. Van Artsdalen)
Subject: Re: Vulcan greeting in strange places

hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
> By the way, the nerve pinch was also one of Nimoy's ideas.  A
> script called for Spock to deck someone with a right cross, but
> Nimoy felt that the peaceful Vulcans, with their superrior logic,
> strength and concentration, would have found a less violent and
> energy-consumptive way to subdue people.  They then developed the
> nerve pinch.  Spock has, in following episodes, occasionally used
> the old fashoned way when rushed.  Before the action continues,
> Kirk usually pauses a moment to rib Spock about it with a quick
> comment like "Isn't that a bit barbaric?".

Actually, I would guess a less noble reason for Nimoy to come up
with the nerve pinch.  I've heard that Nimoy just wasn't very
athletic, at least compared to Shatner, and that the nerve pinch was
a way around having Nimoy do fight scenes.  Lots of ideas in Star
Trek were originally conveniences of this sort.

James R. Van Artsdalen
...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james

------------------------------

Date: Sun 21 Sep 86 18:11:01-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin

To be exact, the sign represents the letter "shin" in the Hebrew
alphabet.  Shin is the first letter in the word "Shalom" (Peace),
and the shin sign is used during High Holy Day (Rosh Hashanah, Yom
Kippur) services.

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 10:53:29 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Terrahawks
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

Bob Neumann writes:
>I understand that Gerry divorced his wife ( who was his partner in
>most of his projects, and he is now using Marionnettes again). He
>is supposed to have produced a show called "Terrahawks" and is now
>working on a show called "Secret Police".  I thought all the
>Anderson stuff was great when I was a kid.  Are these new shows a
>reality?

I don't know about Secret Police, but Terrahawks is certainly a
reality.  It has had a long run on British TV (ITV), unfortunately
shown at some unGodly hour of a Saturday morning (10am, fer cryin
out loud!).  I'd rate it as being one of Andersons best series',
with the exception of Thunderbirds (what could possibly be better
than Thunderbirds?  I still have all my Thunderbird models, dozens
of them, carefully packed away in a box in the attic.  Every now and
then I dig out Thunderbird 2 and wallow in nostalgia, running around
making rocket noises and saying things like "F.A.B" and
"Thunderbirds are go!".  Ostensibly this is done to amuse my son,
but being only 8 months old he doesn't really appreciate it).

Where was I?  Oh yes, Terrahawks.  The hardware in the show is quite
good, with impressive space stations, rough terrain vehicles, space
ships with deep sea capability etc.  The basic story line is
standard - Ubiquitous Hero Organisation struggling to keep planet
Earth free from Evil Alien Invaders, but it is executed with a touch
of class (humour, tongue in cheek Boys Own adventure stuff) that was
sometimes missing from his earlier shows.  Catch it if you can.

Hugh
ARPA:   Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 00:15:50 GMT
From: mtgzz!eme@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Old Sci-fi TV (Anderson)

I saw "Terrahawks" on TV sometime last year while I was out sick.  I
was in the mid-afternoon with a bunch of cartoons.  It seemed like
an OK show.  I remember the bad guys (or should I say gals) reminded
me of the witch I had once seen in a puppet version of "Hansel and
Gretel".  The characters (like in most children's action shows) were
very black and white.  The bad guys had no redeeming features and
the good guys were so nice and good etc. that they refused to kill
the bad guys despite several opportunities to do so.

Beth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 86 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #313
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 313

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bova & Delany & Norton (2 msgs) &
                     Reed & Tepper (3 msgs) & Tolkein &
                     Wells (2 msgs) & Wheeler & 
                     Author Lists (2 msgs) &
                     Leonardo da Vinci & Title Query

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 86 18:35:51 EDT
From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com>
Subject: Book Search
To: ringwld!jmturn@cca.cca.com

James Turner (ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA) writes:
>A friend of mine has been searching for the following book for
>years, and now turns to the assembled might of the SFL collective
>intelligence to help him.
>
>The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a
>force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the
>galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965, and the author's name or
>psuedonym is probably early in the alphabet. He read it first in
>hardcover.

I too have been looking for this book.  It is by Ben Bova.  I first
read it in hardback from a school library.  A minor character in the
book appears as a younger man in another of Ben Bova's books, I
believe it is called _As_On_A_Darkening_Plain_, as the main
character.  I apologize that I cannot at the moment remember the
name of this book.  The story line has the earth people fighting the
GUARDIANS for the freedom to expand the boundries of the TERRAN
EMPIRE.  They are also looking for the OTHERS who previously
destroyed the earth.  I loved it.  I wonder if the story will hold
up if I reread it now?

Michael Laufer
mlaufer@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 09:16:13 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delany

everett@hp-pcd.UUCP (everett) writes:
>Quite early on I read several stories by Delaney, and enjoyed them
>IMMENSELY!  (Try "The Jewels Of Aptor" for GREAT fantasy, and "The
>Fall of the Towers" I remember as being VERY good, although I read
>it so long ago, that I can't remember much of the story.)  However,
>I got de-railed by Delaney when I tried tackling a new (at the
>time) book of his (I can't remember the title) where the character
>spends the entire novel wandering around this immense city
>(post-holocaust, I believe) without really DOING much.  GREAT
>language usuage and discriptions, etc, but I just got tired of no
>plot developments.  I realize it's unfair to give up on an author
>after one dis-liked book, but I haven't time to read half of the
>books I buy, now, so I haven't read much by him for the last ten
>years or so.

The novel was "Dhalgren".Personally I think Delany is one of the
most boring sf-writers out.I read 100 pages into Titan and then gave
up (not from lack of willpower or determination,I just decided I
couldn't be bothered going any further).However I certainly won't
dissuade anyone else from reading his books.Everyone has their own
point of view,and mine is no better or worse than the rest.
    Mind you,I take exception to those who are so narrow-minded as
to refute all adverse arguments.

jml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 86 14:43:01 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Norton "Witch World"

   Do Andre Norton's "Witch World" books fit into any sort of
orderly chronology? Are there any that are more or less worth
reading than others in the series?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 21:17:57 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Norton "Witch World"

From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
>   Do Andre Norton's "Witch World" books fit into any sort of
>orderly chronology? Are there any that are more or less worth
>reading than others in the series?

Well, I'm sure others more knowledgeable will correct me, but as I
remember:

The first five or so follow a chronological order, then the
continuity gets spotty.  Let's see...

Horn Crown                      (Prequel.  Quite good.)

Directly related stories:

Witch World
      (The original.  It'd make a great movie...)
Web of the Witch World
      (Part two of story started in Witch World)
Three Against the Witch World
      (Different storyline, same family as WW and WotWW, but the
      beginning takes place concurrently with the first two books.)
Warlock of the Witch World
      (Part two of story started in TAtWW.)
Sorceress of the Witch World
      (Part three.  Reconnects with plot from WotWW.)

Spell of the Witch World
      (Chronologoy not clear.  Probably concurrent with first book.)
Sign of the Unicorn
      (Nothing to do with Unicorns.  Misleading cover.  Passable
      story, though.  Takes place sometime after WotWW to new
      characters.)
Trey of Swords
      (Not up to the quality of the others.  Takes place after SotWW.)
Zarasthor's Bane
      (Probably the most disappointing of the lot.  chronologoy not
      clear.  Probably after ToS.)
'Ware Hawk
      (Sometime after WotWW.  Not great, but better than ZB.)

The Toads of Grimmerdale
      (Short story.  Chronologoy unclear.)

Oh, This is where the stories take place:

Horn Crown
      First colonization of the Old Race into Etscarp.
Witch World
      Simon Tregarth's entry into Etscarp.
Web of the Witch World
      Etscarp and surrounding countries.
Three Against the Witch World
      Etscarp and Escore.       (Children of Tregarth)
Warlock of the Witch World      Escore.
Sorceress of the Witch World    Escore and other places.
Spell of the Witch World        High Halleck  (?)  (Short stories.)
Sign of the Unicorn             High Halleck.
Trey of Swords                  Escore.
Zarasthor's Bane                Escore.
'Ware Hawk                      Etscarp and the land to the south that
                                I don't remember the name of.
The Toads of Grimmerdale        Etscarp.

Notes:

There is a hint that there will be another book that details the
origin of That Which Runs the Ridges.  I can't wait, even though I
think she should have left it a mystery.

The three books about Tregarth's children are interesting because
each is told from a different child's view, although they follow
chronologically.

I read Horn Crown whilst camping alone in the California Redwoods.
I highly recommend the experience.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 14:16:58 EDT
From: Randall_Shane%RPI-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Short stories with Da Vinci & Kit Reed

James Turner wanted a short story with Leonardo Da Vinci in it -- I
think that 'Mister Da V' by Kit Reed fills the bill.

Kit Reed has also written some very good not-quite-science-fiction,
such as the short stories "Riders of the Purple Twilight", about a
home for the wives of the airmen who never returned from the
war...any war; also see 'On Behalf of the Product'.  All these
stories are in the (extremely badly named at the publisher's
insistence) "Other Stories and the Attack of The Giant Baby".  (A
good story in itself, and in spite of the title -- but not as a
title of a book!!!)

Randall Shane
randall_shane%rpi-mts@mit-multics.arpa
userebqy@rpitsmts.bitnet
userebqy%rpitsmts.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 14:29:58 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Dervish Daughter

haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
> Can anyone tell me what's doing with Sheri Tepper's new book,
> "Dervish Daughter"?  I've read two reviews of the book that had to
> have been written at least half a year ago, but I've yet to see
> the book itself on the shelves.

I purchased it in paperback at Dalden's or Walton's or whatever
quite a while ago.  In fact, just 3 or so weeks ago, I purchased
_Jinnian_Star-Eye_ also.  _Jinnian_Footseer_, _Dervish_Daughter_,
and _Jinnian_Star-Eye_ form a trilogy, detailing the Wize-ard's and
Dervish's attempt to rescue Lom from destruction.  This is pretty
important to them, since Lom is the planet they are living on.

I highly recommend all nine of the books set in the "True Game"
universe.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 11:38:34 PDT (Monday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Dervish Daughter
To: haste@andrew.cmu.edu

     Sheri Tepper's final (?) book to the True Games series is out.
Just saw it last week, read it in one sitting.  Wraps up a lot of
loose ends.  Comes across as trying to teach a bit.  Bao is the
feeling, empathy, people can have for each other and the rest of the
world.  "Dervish Daughter" is fun, worthwhile, but not quite as good
as some of the others.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 22:57:55 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dervish Daughter
Cc: haste@ANDREW.CMU.EDU

Well, this book has been out for quite some time.  I would get a
bookstore to order it for you if they don't have it in stock.  In
fact the third book in that trilogy just came out called _Jinian
Star Eye_(or some such).

ds
uucp:   ...{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}
        !topaz!steiner
arpa:   Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA or Steiner@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 86 18:07:13 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald

>     My question is: How could Gandalf expect Frodo to cast the
>Ring into the Cracks of Doom under Orodruin in the Land of Mordor,
>if he couldn't even do it in his own living room?

That is a good question. However, the Frodo who sat in that hole in
the ground with Gandalf is NOT the same one who accepted the burden
in Imladris.  Since leaving home he had been chased by Nazgul,
stabbed with a wraith-knife, and he knew more of the Ring. I would
think that, given these experiences and the compulsion of fulfilling
his Quest, he would indeed have been able, if he had not had to
carry the burden for so long.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 01:30:56 GMT
From: ihlpa!lew@caip.rutgers.edu (Lew Mammel, Jr.)
Subject: Are we not men?

Last weekend I watched the 30's movie, THE ISLAND OF LOST SOULS,
with Charles Laughton and Bela Lugosi.  Of course, it's really THE
ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU.  I was surprised and delighted to hear the
refrain "Are we not men?" during the recitation of the Law by the
beast-men. The manner of its recitation made it obvious that this
was the source for the DEVO anthem, Jocko Homo.

Being a DEVO fan, my interest in the story was piqued so I obtained
an anthology of H.G. Wells novels from the library and read it. I
found that on this and many other salient details the movie was
faithful to the book, although the book contained a lot more.  The
movie added in some love interest in the form of a fiancee for the
hero and a beast-woman (nearly perfectly human) whom Moreau
experimentally tries to match with the hero.  This reminded me of
BLADERUNNER quite a bit.

I recently saw THE FLY, incidentally, and it's interesting to
compare this treatment of the theme of quasihuman beings with others
such as THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU and BLADERUNNER.

Anyway, I was quite impressed with the book.  With the death of Dr.
Moreau, where the movie ends, the book moves on to achieve its
highest and most disturbing interest.  The protagonist is forced to
deal with the remaining beast-men before he can escape from the
island, and he buys time with the ploy of insisting that Moreau is
still alive "up there" and is still capable of punishing them.

He remarks to the reader, "An animal can be ferocious and cunning
enough, but it takes a real man to tell a lie."  This makes for a
brutally effective parody of the Christian religion.

At the end of the story, having safely returned to civilization, the
storyteller reflects on how his experience has affected his outlook.
He has come to feel that humans are really no different than
Moreau's beast-men, capable of reverting to bestiality at any time.
This essay fits well with DEVO's devolution theme, but the book
bears more serious reflection than DEVO's antics, as delightful as
they are.

When I was in high school we read various existentialist literature
by Sartre, Camus, Kafka, et al.  The existential theme is prominent
in THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU as well, and it easily ranks in
quality with many of the standard stories which are regarded as more
scholarly.

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 04:04:42 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Are we not men?

lew@ihlpa.UUCP (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes:
>Last weekend I watched the 30's movie, THE ISLAND OF LOST SOULS,
>with Charles Laughton and Bela Lugosi.  Of course, it's really THE
>ISLAND OF DOCTOR MOREAU.  I was surprised and delighted to hear the
>refrain "Are we not men?" during the recitation of the Law by the
>beast-men. The manner of its recitation made it obvious that this
>was the source for the DEVO anthem, Jocko Homo.

Jeez, what are they teaching in English classes these days?  Check
out "The Merchant of Venice", by one William Shakespeare.  I think
you'll find a usage of "Are we not men?" that considerably predates
that of the honorable Mssrs.  Laughton and Lugosi.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 18:47:55 GMT
From: utastro!wheel@caip.rutgers.edu (Craig Wheeler)
Subject: coming soon

I just received my first copy of my novel THE KRONE EXPERIMENT hot
from the printer, shiny dust jacket, hard cover and all.  Darned if
it doesn't look like a real book! :>

Copies are going out to reviewers now, and efforts are underway to
convince bookstores to stock it.  The schedule still calls for it to
be on the bookstore shelves in mid to late October.

Craig Wheeler

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 02:28:00 GMT
From: watnot!cjhoward@caip.rutgers.edu (Caleb J. Howard)
Subject: author lists

This is my first posting on this net, so if I'm covering old ground,
sorry.

My question is this: Is there some place to get ahold of complete
lists of specific authors' material?  In particular I', looking for:
   Robert A. Heinlen
   Ray Bradbury
   Piers Anthony
   Alan Dean Foster
   Walter M. Miller

I'm interested in COMPLETE lists, (I.E. old analog-type
publishings).  If complete lists are unavailable, anything would be
greatly appreciated.  Thanks a lot in advance to anyone who can
assist me in my quest for a complete library.  Oh, another thing, I
need a source of old ANALOG and similar regular publications from
the late sixties/early seventies in the Toronto (Canada) region.
Again, Thanks

Caleb J. Howard
cjhoward!watnot!waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 09:33:20 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: author lists

I'm also interested in obtaining a complete listing of publications
on Piers Anthony (i.e.those early stories which the average bookshop
do not have).If anyone can help I would be grateful.I'm thinking of
doing a "Piers Anthony File" a la the Jack Vance one that appeared a
while back.  (That one was most helpful).

jml

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 86 19:18:53 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Leonardo da Vinci

To the person who was looking for short stories with Leonardo...
Have you ever read Heinlein's THE DOOR INTO SUMMER? Leonardo does
not directly figure in the story, but RAH's idea is a good one
(about 1-2 pp)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 09:20:52 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Title query
From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

  Many years ago I read a short story about a man who invents a
robot capable of playing (I think) the piano or harpsichord. When
the robot finally is finished, and plays a piece, the man is moved
to tears by the quality of performance, and the robot (who seems to
be equipped with pseudo-Asimovian Laws) misinterprets the tears, and
vows never to play again, so as not to harm the human. Anyone
recognize the story? Thanks for the help!

Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 86 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #314
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 314

Today's Topics:

       Films - 2001: A Space Odyssey & Beastmaster (2 msgs) &
               Blade Runner & The Fly (4 msgs) &
               Japanese Monster Movies (3 msgs) &
               Gulliver's Travels & I Married a Witch &
               SF Movies on Video (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 16:02:01 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000

> According to my foggy memory, Douglas Rains was a RAF Air Traffic
> Control Officer picked because of his voice.  No prior acting
> experience whatsoever, and I don't know if he has done anything
> else.

Nope, that was the chap that radioed the Discovery from Earth - you
know, the one that gave Bowman (or was it Poole?) the birthday
message from his family.  He didn't have any acting experience, then
nor since, and this caused ructions amongst the acting community at
the time as he didn't have an equity card.

Tim Abbott
{allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca
tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 23:29:15 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: BEASTMASTER

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>>[questions about Beastmaster the movie and Beastmaster the book]
>
>This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's
>been up at least four times this last year.  Yes, the title was the
>same.  No, the film wasn't based on the book.

I disagree.  If the main character (and his pets) weren't based on
the book it'd be an amazing coincidence.

>No, Norton got no credit (I don't think you can
>copyright one-word titles anyway).

She got no credit, but I believe the studio owned the movie rights
to her book.  Otherwise, Norton could retire on the proceeds from a
lawsuit...

Granted, the movie plot was very different from the book, (as I
found to my abject disappointment when I saw it) but the movie has
much more in common with the book than just the name.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 17:20:43 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: BEASTMASTER (was Re: Movies)

> ... Yes, the title was the same.  No, the film wasn't based on the
> book.  No, Norton got no credit (I don't think you can copyright
> one-word titles anyway).

I distinctly remember reading that Norton's book was optioned for
the movie and was greatly disappointed when I saw the resulting
movie which had gone through usual "creative butchering" that all
too often happens to a book when it is made into a movie.

When I saw the movie in the theater, I also saw a "based on book by
Andre Norton" credit.

Danny Low
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 86 20:06:52 GMT
From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: blade runner soundtrack

I was off the net this summer when a discussion of the Blade Runner
soundtrack took place.  I have seen the album, but I'm not sure if I
want to get it... Would someone mail me a summary of the postings?
Thanks,

Kevin Knight (knight@a.cs.cmu.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 22:20:15 GMT
From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard)
Subject: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies)

PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM(Pete) writes:
>I think the only purpose of this film is to say 'Hey, lets see how
>gross we can get.'  I don't mind gore if it has something to do
>with the story, but here the plot and characterization was
>secondary to the new and improved 'state of the art G&D affects.'

   I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.  The special effects were
necessary to the story, to my way of thinking anyway.  Consider the
scene where Seth's ear falls off and Veronica hugs him (and everyone
in the audience says "Eugh").  This scene, for me, captures the
essence of the film quite nicely: even though he's changing into
some horrible monster she still loves him.  Would this scene have
been nearly as effective if Goldblum had been sitting there wearing
a giant plastic fly head?
   Ultimately, "The Fly" is a movie about two people in a doomed
relationship.

>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great films
>that can never possibly be as great as the original.  Why dont they
>remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them.'

   I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly."  The 1958
version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version is
exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy film with a
good premise.

Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
{boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 86 19:06:14 GMT
From: ucdavis!u552434981ea@caip.rutgers.edu (u552434981ea)
Subject: Re: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies)

showard@udenva.UUCP (Steve "Blore" Howard) writes:
>PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM(Pete) writes:
>>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great
>>films that can never possibly be as great as the original.  Why
>>dont they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on
>>them.'
>
>   I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly."  The 1958
>version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version is
>exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy film with
>a good premise.

  I saw Siskel and Ebert(can't ever remember that name) on The
Tonight Show with Johnny a couple of weeks ago and when Johnny asked
them at the end of the show which movie they recomended the most of
all the summer movies the both said without hesitation The Fly.  I
really can't see him saying that unless he was refering to other
remakes.

Bryan McDonald

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 15:03:22 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies)

>Consider the scene where Seth's ear falls off and Veronica hugs him
>(and everyone in the audience says "Eugh").  This scene, for me,
>captures the essence of the film quite nicely: even though he's
>changing into some horrible monster she stills loves him.  Would
>this scene have been nearly as effective if Goldblum had been
>sitting there wearing a giant plastic fly head?

In fact there was a similar scene in the original that works
considerably better than this scene in the remake.  Andre has picked
up his fainted wife and tenderly lays her down.  It seems natural at
this point that he would kiss her and he starts to out of habit,
only to realize, to his frustration, that it is no longer physically
possible to show physical signs of affection.  The scene works for
me.

>>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great
>>films that can never possibly be as great as the original.  Why
>>dont they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on
>>them.'
>
>I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly."  The 1958
>version was  a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version
>is exactly what  Siskel wants:  an improved remake of a lousy
>film with a good premise.

I see very little camp in the original production.  Camp is in the
eye of the beholder, I suppose.  And it is true that two of the
actors took the original film as a joke, but I think that director
Kurt Neumann got serious performances and made a film that is very
good in most aspects.  Some of the science is not very good, but I
admire the film in every other regard.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 22:20:15 GMT
From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard)
Subject: More on The Fly (was Re: Gross and Disgusting Movies)

PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM(Pete) writes:
>I think the only purpose of this film is to say 'Hey, lets see how
>gross we can get.'  I don't mind gore if it has something to do
>with the story, but here the plot and characterization was
>secondary to the new and improved 'state of the art G&D affects.'

   I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.  The special effects were
necessary to the story, to my way of thinking anyway.  Consider the
scene where Seth's ear falls off and Veronica hugs him (and everyone
in the audience says "Eugh").  This scene, for me, captures the
essence of the film quite nicely: even though he's changing into
some horrible monster she stills loves him.  Would this scene have
been nearly as effective if Goldblum had been sitting there wearing
a giant plastic fly head?
   Ultimately, "The Fly" is a movie about two people in a doomed
relationship.

>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great films
>that can never possibly be as great as the original.  Why dont they
>remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them.'

   I can't believe Siskel said that about "The Fly."  The 1958
version was a campy throwaway film, and Cronenburg's version is
exactly what Siskel wants: an improved remake of a lousy film with a
good premise.

Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
{boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 03:57:45 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Raymond Burr in Godzilla

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
> Now that you mention it, I wonder whether Raymond Burr was in the
>original release of the remake.

I saw the remake on a Japanese videocassette long before the
American release.  Nope, no Raymond Burr to be seen.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 03:11:14 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

>>Nope!  Raymond Burr was not in the ORIGINAL Japanese film.
>
>I'd like to see it.  Now that you mention it, I wonder whether
>Raymond Burr was in the original release of the remake.

I have seen the original in Japanese with a half-hearted science
fiction convention helper explaining what it was all about.  This
was before there was an English language version.  No.  The original
Japanese version of what we call GODZILLA '85 did not have Burr.  I
doubt that most Japanese audiences would have known who he was,
having not seen him in their version.  In any case, GODZILLA '85 was
not a remake of the original.  It was a direct sequel to the
original as if none of the other sequels had ever been made.  Now
the Godzilla mythos follows a tree structure.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1986 15:36:19 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: Old monster movies

And how about all those old monster movies? You know: big monster
attacks Tokyo, stomps buildings, army shoots back, etc. One of my
favorite monsters was Gamera, the Flying Turtle. Remember how he
flew?  He pulled in his head and arms, then jets of fire shot out of
the sockets and he started spinning into the air. And of course,
Godzilla, atomic breath and all. (There was a great moment in
"Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster" where 'Zilla shoots a mighty blast
of breath and flys backwards in pursuit of the smog monster). There
was one movie, I think it was "Destroy All Monsters", where all the
big-name monsters came together and had a party at the expense of
some alien menace. Anyone else recall other movies of this sort?

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 20:26:19 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re:Cartoon movie title request

Well, one person knew the movie I was looking for.  Here's his reply:

From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>

>It is called "Gulliver's Travels Beyond the Moon".  I remember this
>movie fondly.  I was particularly impressed by the effect of having
>the water break the robots up into blocks.  I can give you a more
>detailed synopsis from memory if you wish.  Plus....
>
>I have the soundtrack album !
>...
>I haven't seen it on video tape, but I'll watch for it.
>
>The kid's pet was your basic puppy.
>
>The music is nothing exceptional (except for the soundtrack even
>*existing*), but the robots do have a nice, mechanical, menacing
>march tune ("Rise, Robots, Rise!").

Has anyone else seen this movie?  Now that I have a title, can the
people of NJ look in their VCR rental company listings and see if it
is offered?  I would really appreciate it as I would like to see the
movie again.  Thanks.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4,pyrnj,pyramid}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: Fri 19 Sep 86 09:28:42-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Which Witch is Which....

from: david rickel
>...I remember a much older movie (at least, I think it was much
>older), where a witch and her father try to haunt a young
>batchelor....

The title for this movie was _I_Married_A_Witch_ which starred
Veronica Lake as the young (only appx 400 yrs old) witch.  The names
of the other actors escape me at the moment.  It is of the 1940-41
vintage, somewhat prior to Veronica Lake cutting her hair short for
the war effort (which also seemed to shorten her career).

Walter Chapman

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 03:52:32 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: SciFi Movies on Video, Part II

>>King Kong  (1933 w/Fay Wray)
>Did anybody else find that this was better, even in its effects,
>than the later version.

I have talked to a lot of people about the two versions.  NOBODY
prefers the remake!  NOBODY!

>>Logan's Run
>For anybody who has only seen the abortive TV series that tried to
>stand on this one's feet, take heart: the film is *far* better.

That's not saying very much.  There are major flaws with the film
(particularly Farah-Fawcett's acting), but it is better than the TV
show.

>Pardon my memory, but I can't remember who played the woman
>with whom he "run"s.  She is also very good, though.

Jenny Agutter, best known to cinema fans for RAILWAY CHILDREN and
WALKABOUT and to the rest of us for AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON.

>>Planet of the Apes  (the whole series)
>The book of Berton Rouche's, on which these are based,

  Actually it is Pierre Boulle.  (Berton Rouche generally writes
fascinating articles about medical detective work to fight disease.
They are collected in books like ELEVEN BLUE MEN and THE INCURABLE
WOUND.  The title story of the former tells about the day that
eleven skid row bums turned blue and checked into a local hospital.
The doctors had to find the connecting link and stop it from
happening again.  (The only film that know of based on his writings
was BIGGER THAN LIFE, a 1956 film in which timid school teacher,
James Mason, turns into a human monster under the influence of new
wonder-drug cortisone.  It was an exaggerated but true story.  I
assume the film is now shown only very rarely.  Rouche also wrote at
least one fiction novel, a weak-looking novel called FERAL.)  Boulle
wrote THE PLANET OF THE APES (a.k.a. MONKEY PLANET), BRIDGE OVER THE
RIVER KWAI, and GARDEN ON THE MOON.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 17:36:38 GMT
From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Movies on Video, Part IV

From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
>Here are a couple of more movies on video tape (or soon to be
>released):
>  Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. (w/Peter Cushing...just the old
>    _Dr._Who_and_the_Daleks_ repackaged and renamed -- avail
>10/23/86)

Oh no it isn't. This is the last of the two films Mr. Cushing made
as Dr. Who.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 86 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #315
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 315

Today's Topics:

       Radio - SF on Radio & BBC Lord of the Rings (2 msgs),
       Miscellaneous - Who is Fuzzy Pink? (3 msgs) &
               Religion & Western Conventions & 
               Origin of "ansible" & SF-Lovers T-Shirts &
               Impossibilities (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1986 09:50:48-EDT (Friday)
From: ALBERGA%YKTVMH2.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Nostalgia -- SF on radio

The discussion of SF on TV (I am about 25 digests behind right now,
so if the topic has died put this in the past tense) has triggered
my memory.  In the late forties, when I was a relatively new SF fan,
one of the AM radio stations in New York City, I think it was WCBS,
had a series of late afternoon (after school) radio shows on various
topics.  Monday was science, Tuesday was history, etc. (the actual
days slip my mind).  They even sent out a small paper back book with
one-page commentary on the upcoming programs.  (I have a feeling
that this was only done one year, but I may have only known about
for one year.)

The point is that one day a week they had a science fiction program.
I know I heard most of them, but the only one I actually remember
was a presentation of Bradbury's "There Shall Come Soft Rains", I
know that it was from the show that I learned that the title came
from a poem by Sarah Teasdale (sp?).

So -- does anyone out there remember this series?  Have I managed to
get any of the details right?

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 86 15:01:44 PDT
From: Chris McMenomy <christe%rondo@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: The BBC Lord of the Rings

Does anyone have a cast list for the BBC radio version Lord of the
Rings (26 half-hour episodes, introduced by Tammy Grimes and
starring Michael Hodern as Gandalf and Ian Holm as Frodo)?  Only a
few of the characters are given at the end of each episode, and we
haven't been able to find out who played Treebeard.  My husband is
certain he has heard the voice elsewhere.

Christe McMenomy
randvax!christe
Rand Corporation

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 15:07:10 GMT
From: cbuxc!dim@caip.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: Re: The BBC Lord of the Rings

My question is: does anyone know how to get a *copy* of this most
wonderful set of tapes.  The US version is so poor by comparison to
the BBC version...  I'd love any info on how to go about getting a
copy of the BBC version...

Thanks...

D. L. McKiernan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 86 22:38:27 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #298

> in what I assume was an inside joke for SF fans, Fuzzy-Pink.

Could someone explain the inside joke?

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 03:58:26 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #298

From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
>> in what I assume was an inside joke for SF fans, Fuzzy-Pink.
>Could someone explain the inside joke?

Fuzzy Pink Niven is the fannish name for Mrs. Larry Niven.  (Famous
Science- Fiction author) I'm not sure why, it sounds like it's the
name of a drink.

 But that's the source..  Course I haven't seen the full sentence
you are referring to, so I may be dead wrong.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 22:31:14 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #298

Actually you are quoting me, not who you claim to be quoting.  I
never was much in organized fandom, but it seems to me in the 60's
there was a well-known fan who went by the name Fuzzy-Pink.  Forward
may have picked up that the name is of the same format as his alien
names.  My memory, also fuzzy, seems to say that she is now Mrs.
Larry Niven.  Can someone confirm or deny this?

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Sep 86 13:09:41-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: Kids and Heinlein (was Clarke's Writings on Religion)

(I apologize for the potential lateness of this reply; I've been
having problems receiving SF-Lovers in a timely fashion.)

Charley Wingage writes about Heinlein's books and their contents:
>If I had kids now at the same age, I believe I would discourage
>them from reading a lot of the same books, because they would be
>most unlikely to be able to evaluate what they were reading and
>reject what was racist or sexist in the writing.  So in that sense
>there is some purpose for review boards, as long as their purpose
>is not intellectual purity.

I disagree.  I think a much healthier attitude would be to find out
what your kids were reading, and when you thought that their books
might contain messages such as racism and sexism, talk to them about
what messages *they* found in the book after reading it (after all
they might have missed them as was pointed out by Glenn Thain).
Then discuss the messages *you* found, why you found them (examples
from the book) and why you think the messages are not good ones.
This teaches your kids to read more carefully for content, exposes
them to the Big Bad World, and gives you a chance to present your
views.  If your views are not obviously bogus, or you are
particularly persuasive, your kids will be inclined to believe as
you do.  I think that with kids censorship is a mistake, because
they'll have grown up in a pristine environment, and then when they
get exposed to the Big Bad World when they're 20 they'll be more
susceptible to corruption because they've never heard arguments for
or against their parents' lifestyle.  Instead the parents should
expose their kids to alternatives and explain why they've chosen
their particular one.  Science fiction books are a pretty safe way
to get exposure.

Judy Anderson

------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Sep 86 12:46:23-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Western cons between now and 4/1/87
To: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu

Tim -

Your best bet is to hit LOSCON on Thanksgiving weekend.  Of the
various cons going on between now and then, LOSCON is the biggest.
There IS Octocon in the bay area in 2 weeks, but it's a really small
con.

LOSCON takes place November 28-30, 1986, at the Pasadena Hilton
Hotel.  Pro GOH is John Brunner; Fan GOHs are Bruce and Elayne Pelz.
Membership information can be obtained by writing:

LOSCON
Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society, Invc.
11513 Burbank Blvd.
North Hollywood, CA  91601

Since there are no other cons going on that weekend in CA, many Bay
Area fen will be going.  I won't, but I have a DAMN good reason (my
husband and I are going to Japan for two weeks around then and
someone else is paying for it!).

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 15:01:09 GMT
From: bambi!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger)
Subject: origin of term "ansible"

The word "ansible" was first used, as far as I know, in Ursula K.
LeGuin's Hainish novels, as a term for an instantaneous
communications device.  It was also used by Orson Scott Card in
ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, meaning the same thing.

My question: was this an English word before LeGuin?  If so, what
does it mean, and if not, does it have any etymology that would
suggest instantaneous communication?

I've checked in Webster's and Random House and can't get to a copy
of the OED.  I'll warn you ahead of time that it was years before I
realized that LeGuin's NAFAL drive meant "nearly as fast as light."

Mike Caplinger
(mike@bellcore.com, ihnp4!bambi!mike)

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 27 Sep 1986 02:08-EDT
From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Subject: T-Shirt update (final [I Hope])

Ok gang, the shirts are sitting in my apartment. They have been
stuffed into manilla envelopes, they have been addressed, they will
be mailed monday.

The grundgy details:

Total Shirts:           OrdIn   Order   Rec     Surp
        XL               40[1]   60      51     11
        L                54[2]   60      57      3
        M                44[3]   60      61     17
        S                 7      24      23     16
        Total           145     204     192     47

Notes:
[1] Includes one XL allocated to me.
[2] Includes one L for Artist and one L for me.
[3] Includes one M for Artist.

Comments:
   The shirts are going out 3rd class. There are a number of issues
the post awful and I will be working out Monday. These include:

   1) Are the manilla envelopes I'm using beefy enough to take 3rd
class handling? If they are, go to 2; else, buy more expensive
mailing envelopes, loos a week of time to restuff them, and mail.

   2) Are all the packages under 1 pound (the maximum for 3rd).  I
have my doubts about some of the ones with 3 shirts in them,
although I really hope the 2-shirt ones make it. Any that go over 1
pound will have the line containing the words "Third Class" taped
over, and will be sent 4th class.

   3) Assuming all goes well, you should receive your shirts
according to the whims of the USPS. Please open the package
immediately and make sure you got what you ordered. I was pretty
careful as to stuffing them right, but as the order represents
exactly 100 packages, I was getting a little punchy toward the end.
As we are already critically short on items like Large shirts, the
lack of one of those must be handled quickly.

Personal Comments:
   This was very little fun at all to do. The T-shirt company
screwed me in quite a few ways, including very slow service once
they got my check, and inaccurate filling of the order. Buying
envelopes, printing labels, licking the bloody things, all were
unpleasant and tedious. I still have to go through mailing the
suckers.

   I understand some of you are very unhappy about the amount of
time it took for these to get printed. I am even aware of people who
are trying to notify their local attorney generals about me. Listen
folks, I'm not trying to rip you off, I really do have the T-shirts,
they've certainly stunk up my apartment enough. I have learned
several lessons from this, one of which is never to do cash-up-front
business with a T-shirt company again.

   I only hope the shirts are worth it to you folks. I like them, I
hope you do too.

James M. Turner
President
Pipe Dream Associates
{decvax,ima}!cca!ringwld!jmturn

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 02:13:13 GMT
From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Cutter John) writes:
>ags@h.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP (Dave Seaman) writes:
>>Theoretical impossiblity: we can prove it can't be done.  The most
>>famous example is, of course, the transmutation of the elements, a
>>longstanding fantasy, born form deep desires in the human psyche,
>>finally laid to rest by the Atomic Theory, which showed the
>>chemical elements to be immutable.
>
>One nit-picky correction:
>
>Call me an idiot, but I would consider fusion and fission to be
>processes which have a side-result of transmuting elements.

Why should anyone want to call you an idiot, Mr. Griffith?  You're
right.  However, elemental transmutation *used* to be impossible.
It isn't any more.  Perhaps we should take a lesson from this. . .

Brent Woods
USENET:   {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh
ARPANET:  woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM
USNAIL:   Brent Woods
          Box 1004 Cary
          West Lafayette, IN  47906
PHONE:  (317) 495-2011

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 86 18:13:22 GMT
From: unc!gallmeis@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities (...and Recommended Reading)

Just blue-skying...I was reading some quasi-mystic work of Carl Jung
last night, and so my brain is a little more open on top than
usual...

1. Man the animal has a penchant for rules: "This shalt be true",
   often attached to "..because of X".

2. Man has rules and the universe -- just kind of works.  In
   reality, there is no E, or M, or C, and certainly no "squaring".
   These are labels man uses to define our universe.  They are only
   true so far as we can see today.

3. The universe is uncharacterizable in its entirety by Man, because
   we are only Man, and when we characterize a thing, we bring our
   own bias into the matter.  For instance, when we say that it's
   impossible to go faster than the speed of light, we are implying
   that the only way to get from A to B is by traversing some
   connected path from A to B.  This is reasonable for us to assume
   -- for US to assume. Today.

The point of this disconnected raving is that the rules we posit are
only as good as the environment they are proposed in.  What is God's
Truth today (pick your dogma; any dogma!) can be disproven in an
instant if we poke our heads out of the little rut we live in.  FTL
transport will become a reality, and all it will mean is that we
were wrong. Again.

Recommended reading: There is a GREAT little story by Jack Vance,
entitled ``The Men Return''.  I think it is in either _The Worlds of
Jack Vance_, an excellent collection, or _The Best of Jack Vance_, a
very good collection.

Bill O. Gallmeister
...!mcnc!unc!gallmeis

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 86 18:13:54 GMT
From: ubc-cs!andrews@caip.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

     If we have extreme faith in the *results* of scientific theory,
we run the risk of stifling inquiry which leads to better theory.
However, if we put inordinate amounts of effort into pursuing
alternate theories which question the accepted ones, we can't get
anything done, because the results just don't come out for every
crackpot theory around.  We clearly have to strike a balance between
these extremes.

     I have almost as much skepticism about unquestioning faith in
theory as Mr. Firth does.  However, I myself have unquestioning
faith in the scientific *method*, which is a very different thing.
All the examples Firth gives of wrong theories are examples with
people not being careful enough with their predictions, because of
sloppiness or lack of knowledge.

     Whenever these theories were refuted, it was because people
said "maybe this will work" -- and then *followed the scientific
method* in doing their experiments.  Experiment, collate, predict,
test: there is no replacement for this.  Certainly saying "maybe
this will work" and then not backing it up with experiment, but
rather saying "all you silly scientists have been wrong in the past,
whadda you think of that" is no replacement.

firth@sei.cmu.edu writes:
>For a contemporary analogy, look at the "ten million lines of
>working software is impossible" debate.

     I hope everyone realizes what this is referring to.  The
question is, when most software engineers who are not in the pay of
certain groups, and some who are, say "it would be a modern miracle
if we were able to write ten million lines of bug-free software",
should we invest millions of dollars in research whose goal *must*
be ten million lines of *completely* bug-free software?  Nuff said.

>Perhaps we should avoid the word "impossible", and say only "we
>don't know how", or "our current theories predict it won't happen",
>or something sounding a little less like Divine Truth.

     Well, I think we should keep using the word "impossible", and
make sure everyone knows that that *doesn't* mean Divine Truth.
Whenever we say "never", "every", "always", or any number of other
words, we really mean "never, etc. as far as our knowledge can
comprehend it".  Only the very naive can really doubt that.

     We must, I think, have faith in the scientific method, unless
something like organized religion replaces that faith for us.  (In
which case, if your God says "you can travel faster than light", go
ahead and try! :-) but don't expect me to believe it until you give
it some scientific basis.)

Jamie.
...!seismo!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 86 1015-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #316
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Sep 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 316

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Anderson (9 msgs) &
                          Roddenberry (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 11:29:28 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Thunderbirds
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

>This was (The?) _Thunderbirds_.  I remember this one a little
>better than most because I saw a movie of the same one or two years
>back.  There was also a space station and a (six-wheeled?) car in
>the arsenal, and the operators of the various units were brothers,
>except for the car.  The car, as I recall, was pink and belonged to
>a girl who was (I think) the sister.  The entire operation was
>'Earth/Space Rescue' or 'Space Rescue'.  Also, I'm pretty sure that
>they had toys based on this show, because I have a very vague
>memory of owning a toy pink car.  All of the above should be
>considered to be even more heavily qualified than it already is...

The pink car in Thunderbirds was a 21st century 6 wheeled Rolls
Royce, owned by Lady Penelope, driven by Parker (who was always
saying "Yes Milady" in a very lugubrious tone of voice .. an unsung
hero).  I don't know how true this is, but I heard that Anderson was
unsuccessfully sued by Rolls for unauthorised use of the RR logo,
name and style.  The case is supposed to have been thrown out with
the comment that RR should take it as a compliment.

The outfit was called International Rescue, founded by 'Old Man'
Tracy (the first man to Mars).  There were 5 vessels, Thunderbirds 1
through 5.  (Lady Penelope's RR was her own personal mode of
transport).

Thunderbird 1 was half rocket, half airplane which took off
vertically from under the swimming pool (which divided and slid
apart revealing the launch silo).  Scott Tracy was the pilot.

Thunderbird 2 was the dumpy cargo-pod carrier, which used to take
off on an instant-runway (an avenue of trees folded out of the way,
a Harrier type ramp lifted up at the end of the runway and a
rockface tilted up as a blast wall - I think).  Piloted by Virgil
Tracy.

Thunderbird 3 was the red traditional rocket ship, with 3
fins/rocket pods concentrically around the 'bottom'.  It used to
blast off up the middle of the round house.  I can't remember the
pilots name.

Thunderbird 4 was the small yellow submarine, often carried around
by Thunderbird 2.  Piloted by Gordon Tracy.

Thunderbird 5 was the space station, captained by Alan Tracy.

'Brains' was my favourite character, the one with the heavy black
rimmed glasses, the stutter and a brain like a Cray XMP.

I would appreciate any corrections/additions, as my memory of
Thunderbirds is fast fading and could do with a refresh.  Like why
do I have the idea that Thunderbird 6 was a bi-plane?  Did it
feature in any episodes/films (or movies, in USspeak)?

Ah, nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Hugh
ARPA:   Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 19:43:30 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds

Anybody notice that the names of 4 of the 5 Thunderbirds are names
out of U.S. Space history?

   Scott -- Scott Carpenter
   Alan -- Alan Shepard
   Gordon -- Gordon Cooper
   Virgil -- "Gus" Grissom

Given this basis, I would think that the fifth pilot would either be
John (Glenn), Neil (Armstrong), or Douglas (Slayton).

Jeff Okamoto
ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 20:11:10 GMT
From: utastro!allen@caip.rutgers.edu (J. Allen Hill)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds

This was a great show, and obviously stuck with many of the viewers
though it's been ages since it was done.  Why don't these show up on
reruns?  Are marionettes too passe as animation?  Don't TV execs
think we'd eat it up again?

J. Allen Hill
Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712
{allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!allen   (UUCP)
allen@astro.UTEXAS.EDU.                         (Internet)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 08:26:07 GMT
From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds

okamoto@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (The New Number Who) writes:
>Hugh_W_Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes:
>>Thunderbird 3
>>I can't remember the pilots name.

The pilot's name was Alan.

>>Thunderbird 5 , captained by Alan Tracy.

No it wasn't -- it was John Tracy. John and Alan were supposed to
"swap" duties -- as it must've got pretty lonely up there! I can
only remember seeing this happen once.

>Anybody notice that the names of 4 of the 5 Thunderbirds are names
>out of U.S. Space history?
>
>   Scott -- Scott Carpenter
>   Alan -- Alan Shepard
>   Gordon -- Gordon Cooper
>   Virgil -- "Gus" Grissom
>
>Given this basis, I would think that the fifth pilot would either
>be John (Glenn),

Indeed, Jeff. Good guess! The names were quite deliberately taken
from US Space history -- I think Jeff (pa) Tracy was an astronaut
himself.

What with all the GA discussions going on, may I plug a British GA
fanclub, "Fanderson" and its fanzine "SIG" (Supermarionation Is
Go!). Well, its not really its fanzine, as it is produced
independantly. Unfortunately I don't have the addresses involved at
hand, but please e-mail me for further details. If I get enough
response, I'll post the info. O.K.?

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 19:57:52 GMT
From: watarts!nfriesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Nancy Friesen)
Subject: Anderson &c.

> (Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet, Fireball XL-5)

 There's at least one more G&S Anderson show that hasn't ( I think)
been mentioned yet. STINGRAY (nothing [fortunately] to do with GM
products).  The name refers to a submarine stationed in a secret
base under our hero's house in (I believe) the south coast of
England.  The sub goes running around destroying evil shark
submarines and exploring.  I'm not sure if the show ever made it to
NA - I saw it in Britain in ~1967.  In case anyone suspects me of
delusion, I've got several Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet, and
Stingray p'backs that all claim to be taken from BBC tv series'.

dave
watmath!watarts!nfriesen
watmath!watdcs!sqartgra

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 21:17:22 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson)

Re:  British HOTOL launch scheme

Are you sure they mean to do that?  A long level track with a sudden
upswing at the end?  Gack.  Someone pointed out (maybe Heinlein?)
that a long ramp was best--no curves in the damn thing--they
introduce unnecessary G forces (along varying directions).
Presumably the space plane will be built to take G's in all sorts of
directions anyway (adding to the weight of the thing), so I guess it
doesn't matter.

Myself, I still favor vertical take-off, ballistic reentry vehicles.
Call me old-fashioned.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 06:56:28 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: Old SF-tv (Anderson)

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>Are you sure they mean to do that?  A long level track with a
>sudden upswing at the end?  Gack.  Someone pointed out (maybe
>Heinlein?) that a long ramp was best--no curves in the damn
>thing--they introduce unnecessary G forces (along varying
>directions).  Presumably the space plane will be built to take G's
>in all sorts of directions anyway (adding to the weight of the
>thing), so I guess it doesn't matter.
>
>Myself, I still favor vertical take-off, ballistic reentry
>vehicles.  Call me old-fashioned.

Actually TB2 rolled down the strip, with palm trees parting along
the way, and then stoped at the end and was then lifted at an angle
while a rock- outcropping lifted up to provide a 'support' for the
exaust.  And then it would fire up and shoot into the sky.

I must say, it allways moved as though it weighed TONS!  (As well it
should, Olly)

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc]
BIX:  victoro
Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro
People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 86 21:59:10 GMT
From: hpcnoe!jason@caip.rutgers.edu (Jason Zions)
Subject: Re: Old SF-TV Shows

I'm sure "Paul" had a last name, but I am equally sure it was used
only once or twice. Ed Straker was the only one who was more than a
first name. There was an episode concerning the death of his son and
the ensuing breakup of his marriage, for example. Straker was, for
the most part, the only non-cardboard character in the entire show.
Pretty good for an Anderson show, though - at there WAS a
non-cardboard character!

But they had some great designs and some terrible designs for their
equipment.  Their subs consisted of a small fighter plane grafted
onto the front end of a submersible tender; these guys would prowl
the oceans and occasionally launch this fighter against a ufo that
got through the space-borne defenses.  The subs could also torpedo
ufos that got underwater; one episode concerned a ufo base
established underwater.

Their space defenses were based on the moon; they consisted of
interceptor spaceships that were a propulsion system, a cockpit, and
a missle. That's it; one missle. The missle was about 2/3 the length
of the rest of the interceptor. Dumb design; they'd send 'em after
ufos in threes, so if all three missed, the ufo got through.

No orbital defenses; just an orbiting computer/tracking system
called SID, Space-borne Intruder Detector (I think); this beast was
solid computer and sensors. The computer was slightly AI.
Unfortunately, he was a sitting duck; another episode involves ufos
knocking SID out to avoid detection of a large invasion fleet from
another direction.

The moon base was pretty cool; all the women wore their hair
identically (bowl- type hairstyle), wore tight-fitting silver mylar
outfits. One or two of them were pretty tough people; in one
episode, the moonbase commander gets killed; his second is this
woman who manages to hold the place together even though it's
getting heavily bombed by ufos. We're talking people in spacesuits,
trying to avoid getting hit by shrapnel. A pretty good episode; I
think Straker made her base commander afterwards.

They also had some moonrovers (one looks amazingly like the flying
craft that appeared from time to time in Dick Tracy!) and earth
tanks that were the ground based defense force.

One of Gerry and Sylvia's best efforts, in my opinion; superior to
Space:1999, in that the interceptors appeared to be powerful enough
to make swooping turns in space. Remember the way an Eagle could
turn on a dime and retreat? Since the Interceptors were almost all
engine, I might believe it.

Jason Zions
Hewlett-Packard Colorado
Networks Division
3404 E. Harmony Road
Mail Stop 102
Ft. Collins, CO 80525
{ihnp4,seismo,hplabs,gatech}!hpfcdc!hpcnoe!jason

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 16:23:24 GMT
From: ihlpf!rtradm@caip.rutgers.edu (Vangsness)
Subject: Anderson &c

Stingray was shown on North American TV during the sixties.  It was
syndicated agin in the seventies and showed up on channel 60 in
Chicago in reruns about three years ago.

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 18:05:59 GMT
From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst)
Subject: old SF TV movies

Does anybody know if Gene Roddenberry's (sp?) post-Star Trek
TV-movies are available on video? There was Genesis II and its
sequel (I don't remember the name). I remember a movie called (I
think) Spectre, which was about a contempory ghost hunter who
discoveres a cult of people worshipping Asmodeus in Britain. I read
the book version of Questor, but I don't know if it was ever
produced on television. As I recall, all of these movies were
supposed to be pilots for new SF TV series' which never got off the
ground. Its a shame, too, because Roddenberry had better ideas than
anything I've seen on TV in the last 10-15 years (yes, that includes
Space 1999, Buck Rogers, and V).

David Hurst, KSC
Gould Research Center
email:  ...ihnp4!grc97!hurst
phone:  (312) 640-2044

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 18:57:51 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: old SF TV movies

hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes:
>Does anybody know if Gene Roddenberry's (sp?) post-Star Trek
>TV-movies are available on video? There was Genesis II and its
>sequel (I don't remember the name). I remember a movie called (I
>think) Spectre, which was about a contempory ghost hunter who
>discoveres a cult of people worshipping Asmodeus in Britain. I read
>the book version of Questor, but I don't know if it was ever
>produced on television. As I recall, all of these movies were
>supposed to be pilots for new SF TV series' which never got off the
>ground. Its a shame, too, because Roddenberry had better ideas than
>anything I've seen on TV in the last 10-15 years (yes, that
>includes Space 1999, Buck Rogers, and V).

To my knowledge, none of the Roddenberry Television pilots are
available commercially, but all have been on tv a few times and are
probably swappable with someone on the net.  I'd have to check my
collection, I may have one or more.

Some answers to implied questions.  There were actually three
versions of the Genesis II concept.  The original, Planet Earth, and
one the studio did w/o Roddenberry after buying the concept called
Brave New Earth (I think).  Genesis II reached serious preproduction
with CBS and six story outlines were ordered (I've got copies) One
became the plot of Planet Earth, another was the genesis (sorry) of
the plot for ST I.  The other four (off the top of my head, I can
look all this up if anyone's interested) had one set in Austria
where you had to sing anything you said, one was in England, one
involved Dylan Hunt getting involved with "himself" in some strange
time warp, and I forget the fourth.

The Questor Tapes was made.  It starred Robert(Falcoln Crest)
Foxworth as Questor and Mike(MASH) Farrell as Jerry Robinson.

Spectre starred Robert(I Spy,GAH)Culp and Gig Young in characters
based on Holmes and Watson.  Majel (Mrs. Roddenberry) Barrett played
a witch/housekeeper.

Rich Kolker
8519  White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 20:35:13 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: old SF TV movies

hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes:
> Does anybody know if Gene Roddenberry's (sp?) post-Star Trek
> TV-movies are available on video?

Don't know about the availability.  The sequel to Genesis II was
Planet Earth (starring John Saxon as Dylan Hunt).  The Genesis II
series was killed by the Planet of the Apes movies (monkeys--the
public wants monkeys).  The Questor series was killed by the 6M$ Man
(they weren't actually killed, they were out-competed.  it's a
jungle out there) (the above conclusions are from vague
recollections of a lecture by Roddenberry given about 10 years ago).
Of the three pilots, I liked Questor the best.  I think that Genesis
II would have made the better series, though (it shouldn't be too
surprising that both Questor and Genesis II featured Majel Barrett.
I don't remember about Planet Earth).

Yes, Star Trek was better than anything that has been on American TV
since.  Too bad, but the networks seem to be afraid of quality.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0800-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #317
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 317

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19-Sep-86 14:49:29-BST
From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: aliens the view from scotland

   I've just seen the film ALIENS and would like to put my penny's
worth into the discusions that are going on concerning the film.  Of
course you lucky **** in the states have had months to think about
these thing and I've had just a week but here goes.  First of all
let me say that I think the film is absolutly superb and that if
sigorney (sp?)  weaver doesn't get some sort of award then I'm going
to scream.  Now lets get on with some of the 'hard' points that I
wanted to raise.

1: FTL
   The Nostromo (sp?)  DOES have FTL drive.  This is stated in the
first book BUT even if it wasn't heres some more pointers that imply
it.
      i: Ripley says that she promised to be back for her daughters
11'th birthday, that makes the round trip less than 11 years earth
time and most probably less.
      ii: In the book it says something like this when the shuttle
is escaping from the Nostromo "The shuttle slipped out of the hyper
drive field".  This explains to me why the explosion of the Nostromo
didn't damage the shuttle craft.

2: The weapons.
   Something that did initially worry me in the film was that it was
stated that they had only 50 rounds of amunition each for the final
battle BUT it seemed to me that they let off a great deal more than
that.  At first I put this down to artistic license but then a
friend of mine pointed out that in the scene with Ripley blowing
away the eggs in the aliens lair, the counter on the side of the gun
was counting down quite slowly, she came up with the following
explanation.  The guns are called Pulse rifles (sp?)  which could
mean that each round was in fact a burst of separate shells (say
arranged as in a gatling gun) meaning that you could blow away a lot
more per burst.
   Other points.
      i:  The smart guns seemed to fire too slowly.
      ii: The smart guns look very clumsy to use ( I could be wrong
          !!)

3: The Aliens.
   Has anyone come with a reasonable survivalist reason for the
metamorphsis from egg to parasite.  Again my zooligist friend
suggests that there is no evolutionary point to translation as most
parasites get some advantage from living inside a host.  She
suggested that this stage of the life cycle would have been more
believable if more than one chest buster emerged from the host, or
if the host was used as a food source.  She did have some more
thoughts on this but in involved the life cycle of certain parasitic
wasps and so one that I can't quite remember, I'll get her to post
what she thought if any one wants to pursue this bit further.

OK that's enough for now

andy c
cobley%dundee.micro%dundee@ucl-cs
or
tracey%dundee.micro%dundee@ucl-cs  for the biological bits.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 00:26:06 GMT
From: hcrvax!brian@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Dickson)
Subject: Re: ALIENS THEORY

oz@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes:
>And also, if we can suspend our belief long enough to accept that a
>several-ton-heavy queen hanging off ripley's leg for several
>seconds under extreme air pressure without tearing her apart,...

I have seen the movie several times, and paid particular attention
to detail in each successive viewing. I am not nit-picking in
particular, I am simply taking a convenient opportunity to shed some
light on this final scene, which most people (that I have talked to)
find somewhat implausible.

As the airlock opens, before it is entirely open, even by a few
inches, the mama alien is braced, by way of numerous appendages,
against the airlock door.  She grabs Ripley *before* the doors are
completely open. The time during which she actually holds on to
Ripley and nothing else is slightly exaggerated by the switching of
camera angles, etc.

Re: reference to pulse-rifle ammo

I can't remember exactly, but I seem to recall the phrase:

9mm caseless hollowpoint explosive, standard armour piercing rounds.

Feel free to correct me if you disagree. Differing views make for
interesting discussion if both sides listen.

Brian Dickson.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 22 Sep 86 10:55:00-PDT
From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: alternation of generations of aliens.

I don't think we have seen any alternation of generations of aliens,
really, only a weird kind of larval -> adult sequence.  But the
remark got me thinking about generation alternation in parasites and
it seems likely to me that the aliens would alternate in a manner
similar to parasites like aphids.  Aphids' food source is sporadic,
but rich when they have it.  The strategy they have evolved is to
crank out the generations through parthogenesis in a relatively
immobile form while there is food, but to produce a sexual winged
form when the food runs out.  Lots of parasites follow this pattern.
The argument about destroying the host does not apply because the
creatures go off (a relatively long distance) to find a new host.
Translated into alien terms I would think this means a space-faring
generation.  Perhaps that was what the ship in the original movie
represented, with the beacon being some kind of a lure.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 86 14:58:30 PDT
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Vacuum packed Alien Queen

I thought someone would point this out by now but since it didn't
happen :

When Ripley ran from the Alien Queen towards the shuttle did anyone
notice her closing the shuttle door after she entered the ship?  She
DIDN'T close the door.  I naturally assumed the Queen just followed
her into the ship but not into the cockpit (Don't ask me why.  The
shuttle was making a lot of drastic manuevers to get out of the
installation.  She might have been temporarily disoriented).  Look
at the film again.

So the question of whether the queen can survive in a vacuum has no
relevance.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 23:39:39 GMT
From: reed!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Flanagan)
Subject: ALIENS -- Costume Design

I wonder if anyone out there can provide some details about the
costumes in _ALIENS_.  Specifically, I am interested in the business
suits that the Company officials (including Burke) wore in the
conference chamber.

First, the suit-jacket:
-How should one go about constructing the stand-up
 collar/flat-laying lapels?
-What kind of material is Burke's made of?
-Do they have breast pockets? How many?
-Do they have hip-pockets?
-Are they vented in back?  Double or Single?
-How many buttons in front?  How many (if any) on the cuffs?
-What kind of buttons are they?
-How does the front panel terminate?  i.e.  Below the front closure,
  does the edge of the fabric curve around the corner, or is it a
  right-angled corner, or is it something else?

Next, everything else:
-Are the shirts and ties, as I believe them to be, simply
  off-the-rack sorts of things?
-Do the slacks have any significant differences from off-the-rack
  stuff?
-What sort of shoes do they wear?  Socks?  Belt?  Cologne? (Hold up,
  there, boy...)

Well, that's about it.  I would also like to know about the military
uniforms.  That should be a rather simple matter, however, of
determining which real-life military branches the various fatigues
and flight coveralls are taken from.  Perhaps someone out there has
had enough experience to simply recognize the differences, whereas I
would have to do some rather time-consuming research.

Please post any replies here, as I'm sure that there are others who
are interested besides me.

Thankyou,
Tim Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 00:28:44 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: More on _Aliens_

>I believe that Ripley states somewhere in the beginning of
>the story (I beleive at the hearing) that the creatures could
>survive in vacume.

If she said it, I must've missed it.  But she had only one example
to look at, and it got fried REAL soon after blowing it out the
door.

>I also seem to remember that in the first book, Dallas and company
>trapped the Alien in a room and decompressed it to no avail.

Nope -- they tried to lure it into the airlock and blow the door,
but Ash hit the klaxon before they blew the door.  The alien jumped
back and the internal door caught on the alien's tail.

>Also, it is pretty unlikely that an external landing pod would be
>pressurized, much the same as not pressurizing them on
>airliners...there is no justification for the added expense.

True that you probably wouldn't pressurize them.  As for added
expense, who knows what they'd consider justified?  They may expect
the doors to serve several purposes.  Remember, airliners don't go
orbital (yet), so there are differences there.  Maybe there's some
kind of oxygen pipeline?  I can imagine LOTS of uses for putting one
there, so this is a possibility.  You don't need to have a very
tight seal on the doors if you just keep feeding in oxygen.  (more
on that later)

>in watching the film these things are all very agile and climb
>walls and ceilings and jump all over the place without causing any
>damage normally associated with a large mass. Therefore, I contend
>that these creature are very light weight.

Great.  Never thought of that.  Also, you had a herd of them above
panels that were light enough to lift easily.

>If anyone recalls the scene where Ripley and Newt are standing on
>the platform where Bishop was supposed to pick them up, you will
>remember that the dropship was knocked onto the platform by an
>explosion.  It is clearly shown in that scene that the landing gear
>is jammed open by a piece of debris.  My guess is that the queen
>crawled in there, survived the trip up, and was ready to go at it
>with everyone else once they got back to the Sulaco.

These creatures are pretty bright (fundamental assumption -- they
manage to be wherever you don't want them at the worst time all the
time, therefore they must be making pretty good decisions).  After
crawling in, could it have cleared the debris?  Then it (sorry, I
don't call *that* a she) could have lived by the method I described
above, and there'd be a decent seal on the doors.  (Sealing, BTW, is
a great idea when you don't want sand screwing everything up, so
they probably did it).

>2: The weapons.
>[...]
>The guns are called Pulse rifles (sp?)  which could mean that each
>round was in fact a burst of seperate shells (say arranged as in a
>gatling gun) meaning that you could blow away alot more per burst.

I like that idea.  Pulse is also a good name to call the rail-gun
idea that I threw on net.sf-lovers a week or so ago (I didn't think
of it at the time, but if it fits....)  This would indeed make the
things more dangerous.  However, they described the ammo pretty well
in the movie, and I think they would hve mentioned such an
arrangement.  I have no idea what the jargon would be, so I can't
tell if they did.  Anyone check for this?

>Other points.
>i:  The smart guns seemed to fire too slowly.
>ii: The smart guns look very clumsy to use ( I could be wrong !!)

The book describes the guns as *very* powerful.  They'd take a hunk
out of anything.  You'd have to check the book for details, but it
says the guns are pretty dangerous.

Jim Frost
UUCP:    ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:   madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 04:29:24 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: More on _Aliens_

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) mentions:
>(Sealing, BTW, is a great idea when you don't want sand screwing
>everything up, so they probably did it).  ...

Not to mention that atmospheric friction would probably turn the
ship into either glowing gas or scrap metal if the gear stuck out. .
. .  Yes?  No?  It didn't look too pleasant going down, and the ship
didn't have anything really protruding (note the swing-out weapons
bays).

Michael Justice
BITNet:  cscj0ac@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 19:41:02 GMT
From: ritcv!spw2562@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol?

>>Anyone remember a scene where someone hands Bishop a pistol?
>>Remember what he does with it?  Any conjectures as to why?
>Yes, This was the scene were Bishop is being placed in the steam
>tunnel in order to go out and use his Tandy model 100+ (grin) to
>bring down the ship.  One of the crew hands him a pistol which
>Bishops hands right back.  WHY did he hand it back?  I've often
>wondered that myself.  Assuming that he follows Asimov's laws, then
>perhaps he felt that the humans needed it more than he did. I
>really just don't know, but I'll cros post this to net.movies

From what I read in the book (saw the movie, too), the aliens hunted
mainly by scent.  Since Bishop was a synthetic, he would not attract
the aliens to him, and would not need to defend himself against
them.  As a matter of fact, in the book, an alien attacks bishop
once, because it sees him moving, but then turns and leaves him
alone.  Bishop conjectures that this is because he has no biological
scent for the aliens to track.  That would explain why he didn't
take the pistol.

Would have posted this sooner, but RIT's news posting didn't work.

Steve Wall  @  Rochester Institute of Technology
UUCP: ..{allegra|seismo}!rochester!ritcv!spw2562   Unix 4.3 BSD
BITNET: SPW2562@RITVAXC                            VAX/VMS 4.4

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 15:32:32 GMT
From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol?

spw2562@ritcv.UUCP (Steve Wall) writes:
>From what I read in the book (saw the movie, too), the aliens
>hunted mainly by scent.  Since Bishop was a synthetic, he would not
>attract the aliens to him, and would not need to defend himself
>against them.  As a matter of fact, in the book, an alien attacks
>bishop once, because it sees him moving, but then turns and leaves
>him alone.  Bishop conjectures that this is because he has no
>biological scent for the aliens to track.  That would explain why
>he didn't take the pistol.

I've been making the assumption that since the aliens possess at
least a small modicum of intelligence they hunt for one of two
reasons; food or to obtain host bodies for their young. Bishop,
being a synthetic, probably wouldn't be very tasty making him of no
use in either case. Therefore the aliens would probably leave him
alone unless he posed some kind of direct threat to them. Therefore,
as long as he didn't attack an alien he had no reason to have a gun.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta
Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0817-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #318
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 318

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Delany & Ellison & MacAvoy &
                   Plauger & Silverberg & Yarbro (3 msgs) &
                   Longest Series (2 msgs) & Author Search

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 21:48:23 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Foundation and Earth

                        Foundation and Earth
                            Isaac Asimov

This book along with Foundation's Edge and Robots of Dawn connect
Asimov's Robot and Foundation Universes together. The good news is
that this is the final book. Everything is explained, all the loose
ends are tied up, including what happened to the Solarians. The bad
news is that the ending is a hook for a sequel.

I have one complaint about the book and the trilogy. First, Asimov
writes the book as a mystery when it is really a treasure hunt
story. The conventions for the two types of stories are different.
One result is a lot of extraneous dialogue as Asimov throws out red
herrings by the barrel.

Second, Robots of dawn is not the book Asimov would have written
originally. Given the direction of the first two robot novels, the
third novel should have shown a perfect robot/human society where
robots and humans work together to form a better society than the
human society of Earth and the robot society of Solaria.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 18:52:40 GMT
From: PUCC.BITNET!6080626@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Samuel Delany

everett@hp-pcd.UUCP (everett) writes:
>got de-railed by Delany when I tried tackling a new (at the time)
>book of his (I can't remember the title) where the character spends
>the entire novel wandering around this immense city
>(post-holocaust, I believe) without really DOING much.  GREAT
>language usuage and discriptions, etc, but I just got tired of no
>plot developments.  I realize it's unfair to give up on an author
>after one dis-liked book, but I haven't time to read half of the
>books I buy, now, so I haven't read much by him for the last ten
>years or so.

The book you are talking about can only be "Dhalgren". There is a
joke, actually one of those "find the question for this answer"
things...the answer is "The center of the sun, the speed of light,
and page 60 of Dhalgren" the question is "Name three points mankind
will never reach".  (Yes, I know I stole this from an F&SF
competition).  Either you love Dhalgren or you hate it (the same is
true of Delany actually). I thought Dhalgren was a really great
book. Then I tried reading "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand"
and got bogged down. I will try again though. Once I got started on
Dhalgren I couldn't put it down...even though as you said there was
nothing really happening, just random events in this (yes,
post-holocaust) ravaged city. A great book to have read.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Sep 86 12:53:08-EDT
From: eric  <WCCS.E-SIMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: harlan ellsion's ego ...

Regarding the recent comments on Harlan Ellison:

He came to Wesleyan University to speak around November of last
year, and although I was unable to see him myself, I have since
spoken to many people who did.  Contrary to what some people have
posted, he seemed quite friendly (he opened his lecture by passing
out Oreo cookies to anyone who wanted them).  However, his pompous
attitude was also duly noted.  At more than one point in the
lecture, he told the audience that he considers himself (and expects
others to consider him as) "a star."  He also seemed to enjoy
speaking about himself more than he did his books.  This may have
been appropriate, though, since the lecture was geared toward future
writers more than it was toward HE fans.  All in all, my friends
came away from the lecture without any grievances and with respect
for him.

Eric J. Simon
Welayan University
wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 16:54:41 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy

                 TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy
                    Bantam/Spectra, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Although this is a sequel to MacAvoy's enormously popular TEA
WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, it seems to have more in common with her
latest, THE BOOK OF KELLS.  Unfortunately, what this means is that
she has drifted away from what I liked and into what I am not as
interested in (though I can't say I actually *dislike* it either).

     TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON had as one of its two central
characters Mayland Long.  He was an enigmatic Chinese gentleman (in
the literal sense of the word) and made TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON a
truly memorable book.  What appealed to me was MacAvoy's use of one
of the lesser used (at that time anyway) mythologies--the Chinese
mythology, with its dragons and spirits.  The same was true of her
"Damiano" series--set in medieval Italy, it drew upon Christian and
Arab mythologies for its characters and story.

     THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in this
case, the Celtic.  While I agree that Celtic mythology may have a
certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am getting
somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and pseudo-Celtic
fantasy covering the shelves in the science fiction/fantasy sections
these days.  Don't get me wrong.  MacAvoy does it well, but I
question the necessity of doing it at all these days.

     That brings us back to TWISTING THE ROPE.  Martha Macnamara and
Mayland Long are back, all right, but they're now the managers of a
touring Celtic folk group.  Seriously.  There is a lot of time spent
discussing the technical aspects of Celtic folk music and the
emotions that it evokes, in fact more time than is spent on the
fantastic aspects of the story, which seem pasted on for the purpose
of making this a fantasy.  It is, rather, a murder mystery that
needn't have been fantasy at all.  It's a well-written murder
mystery, true, and I'm sure fascinating for those who are interested
in Celtic music.  But for me, for all these reasons I mentioned, it
was a disappointment.  My unreserved recommendation for TEA WITH THE
BLACK DRAGON and the "Damiano" books still stands, however.  I just
hope that MacAvoy will return to the not-so-well-trodden ground she
began to explore before.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 15:04:34 GMT
From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: P.J. Plauger

>called "Wet Blanket".  Unfortunately I can't remember the title of
>the novel, but it did involve a formerly mad protagonist who had to
>disable a mass driver on the moon to keep it from being used
>against Earth a la _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.

I think the story was `Fighting Madness'.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 16:53:15 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg

                 TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg
                    Warner, 1986 (1985c)
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     [Warning: spoilers ahead.]

     I like Silverberg's novels; I really do.  But this one is so
exasperating, so annoying, that (to steal a quote) I do not want to
set it down but cast it aside with great force.

     So what do I find so exasperating?  Not Silverberg's writing
style-- that is as good as ever.  And his characters are memorable,
three- dimensional--everything characters should be.  It's the
message that drives me up the wall.

     TOM O'BEDLAM takes place after the atomic war has decimated
North America (and apparently the rest of the world, though no one
can be sure anymore).  Tom is a mutant who wanders through the
western United States having visions of distant worlds and of the
"Crossing" to them that mankind will soon experience.  His visions,
and those of the newly born tumbonde' sect, and those of the
patients in an exclusive mental institution near Mendocino all point
toward an apocalyptic transition for the human race.  This vision is
best expressed by one of the converts to tumbonde': "The gate will
open; the great ones will come among us and make things better for
us.  That's what's going to happen, and it's going to happen very
soon, and then everything will be okay, maybe for the first time
ever."  If this sounds like the current cults that say the ancient
astronauts will return and solve all of mankind's problems, you're
right.

     My objection to all this (in case you haven't figured it out)
is that Silverberg seems to be saying that we needn't do anything to
improve things hear on earth--powerful alien beings will show up to
solve all our problems.  He may even feel we *can't* do anything to
improve things, a nihilistic belief that I simply cannot subscribe
to.  (Silverberg may not have these beliefs personally, but the book
seems to be promoting them, so I'll use the shorthand of "Silverberg
says.")  One can argue that a belief in the Biblical apocalypse
would result in similar conclusions, but at least that has the
virtue (if one may call it such) that it relies on divine
intervention, rather than on other mortals who are somehow more
advanced than we.  If these advanced mortals could pull themselves
up to that level, why can't we?  If one postulates that they were
assisted by yet another advanced race, then we could easily get into
the paradox of infinite regress here.

     As if this weren't enough, Silverberg has Tom--a gentle,
pacifistic character--engage in some highly questionable activities.
Tom, because of his mutation, is a critical nexus in the Crossing.
And while some people are eager to "cross" and become the wards of
these super-beings, others are not.  And how does Tom feel about
sending these, in effect killing them on Earth to send their souls
elsewhere?  "It wasn't a killing anymore than the other killings
were. ... if I hadn't, he would have killed me sure as anything with
that spike,and then there would be no more crossings for anyone.
You understand that...?  I didn't kill you...I did you the biggest
favor of your life."  So also said the Inquisition as it lit the
auto da fe': "We torture your body so that we can save your soul."

     Maybe Silverberg believes all this.  Maybe he doesn't.  But the
book (which is the topic here) does seem to present these ideas as
reasonable, so I must weigh the philosophical aspects of the book as
well as its technical and literary aspects.  While it gets high
marks on the latter, I find the former leaves an exceedingly bad
taste in my mouth.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 21:04:30 GMT
From: PUCC.BITNET!6103014@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Search for Sadgeman

I am looking for any novels, novellas, short stories etc. about a
vampire called Sadgeman.  The character was created by Chelsea Quinn
Yarbro and I got really fascinated by a filk about him.  (Filk by R.
Rogow) I have heard the the books are out of print.  Is this true?

Harold Feld
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 20:13:24 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Search for Sadgeman

6103014@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>I am looking for any novels, novellas, short stories etc. about a
>vampire called Sadgeman.  The character was created by Chelsea
>Quinn Yarbaro (sp?) and I got really fascinated by a filk about
>him.  (Filk by R. Rogow) I have heard the the books are out of
>print.  -HAROLD FELD

The vampire's name is Ragosczy Saint Germaine.  The author's name is
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro.  The books are (in historical, rather than
publication, order): Blood Games (ancient Rome), The Path of the
Eclipse (China, at the time of Genghis Khan, and India), The Palace
(Renaissance Florence), Hotel Transylvania (first published;
revolutionary France), and Tempting Fate (pre-WWII Germany).  There
is also a book of short stories; I do not recall the title.  St. G.
is based on an actual historical figure who lived at the time of the
Hotel Transylvania book and claimed powers similar to those of the
fictional character: thousand-year lifespan, knowledge of alchemy,
etc.  Perhaps he WAS an "enlightened master" (as at least one
faith-healer type has insisted) and is still around, reading Quinn's
books and chuckling....:-)

Jordin Kare
jtk@s1-c.ARPA
jtk@mordor.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 20:12:37 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: St. Germain (was Re: Search for Sadgeman)

That's "St. Germain," *not* "Sadgeman."  The books are (in the order
they were written):
    1   Hotel Transylvania
    2   The Palace
    3   Blood Games
    4   Path of the Eclipse
    5   Tempting Fate
    6   Saint-Germain Chronicles (collection of short stories)

At least some of them are in print.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 01:27:14 GMT
From: mpm@hpfcms.HP.COM ( Mike McCarthy )
Subject: Re: what's the longest series of them all?

> ...  Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can
> claim over thirty titles?  Dumarest is the only one I can think
> of.

     The Doc Savage books by Kenneth Robeson number well in excess
of 100 novels (or novellas, depending on your definition).  The last
time I checked Bantam was (re)issuing them in paperback, two to a
book.  I think that "Kenneth Robeson" was a pseudonym for a number
of authors contributing stories to some pulp adventure magazine
YEARS ago.  However, I believe that at least one of the contributing
writers provided well over half of the stories.

Mike McCarthy
{ihnpr, ucbvax, hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 08:35:56 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Dray Prescot

mpm@hpfcms.HP.COM ( Mike McCarthy ) writes:
>> ...  Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can
>> claim over thirty titles?  Dumarest is the only one I can think
>> of.
>
>     The Doc Savage books by Kenneth Robeson number well in excess
>of 100 novels (or novellas, depending on your definition).

   The thing about most series is that they are that -- series.
'Dray Prescot' is interesting because it comes closer to being a
single, continuous narrative, rather than a semi-connected series of
essentially independent stories.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 86 12:49:11 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Cristabel

Does anyone remember an author named Cristabel (Christine
Abrahamsen)?  She wrote four novels (that I know of) about fifteen
years ago: "Manalacor of Veltakin", "The Cruachan and the Killane",
"The Mortal Immortals" and "The Golden Olive".

With the exception of "The Golden Olive" they are riveting reads.
With the possible exception of "The Mortal Immortals" they are
fantasies which the author wrote under the impression that she was
writing science fiction.  (Unless I'm mistaken, the author never
quite gets the distinction between space ships and airplanes
straight.)

I'm not sure what makes her books so enjoyable.  They're not that
well written.

Perhaps the key is that they are not so much 'Fantasy' as 'fantasy'.
They are the author's own daydreams, but although they are
constructed almost entirely from the common stock of fantasy
components they never descend into cliche.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #319
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 319

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 86 21:22:25 GMT
From: calgary!radford@caip.rutgers.edu (Radford Neal)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

This is getting more and more ridiculous. I haven't read Farnham's
Freehold in years either, but unless my memory is much worse than I
think, the book doesn't concern the direct effects of nuclear war AT
ALL.

You see, once the bomb hits, the protagonists are transported
through time to a period hundreds of years after the war ends. Far
from his major concern being "protecting his fiefdom from looting",
the hero believes for many months that they are the sole survivors.
About half the book concerns the events after they are discovered by
the post-holocoust society, and is mainly about racial
discrimination, not nuclear war.

There's about five pages at the end that's slightly more relevant to
the direct effects of the war, after the hero and heroine manage to
travel back in time to just after the war.

All sides in this discussion would do well to actually read the
books they talk about, recently enough to remember them.

Radford Neal

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 02:57:30 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
>"Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of
>nuclear war whatsoever.  For example, because an all-out nuclear
>war would destroy the ozone layer, animals and humans without their
>eyes shielded would soon be blinded.  Then of course there is the
>likelihood of the Nuclear Winter effect.  Heinlein could be excused
>for not mentioning these since both were just discovered in the
>past decade.

Okay, my first reaction was "Good CHRIST, Tim, this was written in
1964" -- but at least RAH "could be excused" for not being prescient
or omniscient.

>But then another effect should have been well-known to Heinlein
>which he never bothered to deal with in his paean to "survivalism".
>Namely the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to
>massive firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's
>Freehold" to be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else
>suffocated by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential
>flames.

Just as a young soldier named Vonnegut was suffocated in a cellar in
Dresden, then cooked, cutting off a fine writing career before his
first publication.

Uh, it didn't happen that way in MY universe.

>It has been a long time since I read "Farnham's Freehold" but I
>also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects of
>radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule incident
>compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war, they have to
>strip off the top inches of thousands of acres of topsoil because
>it is excessively radioactive.  If you strip off the top inches of
>fertile topsoil to avoid radioactivity, the soil left will be
>practically useless for growing crops.  Nor do I recall Heinlein
>talking much at all about radiation sickness, leukemia, cancer,
>etc.

The nice pleasant land occupied for most of the book was 2000 years
-- TWO THOUSAND YEARS -- after the Big War.  The war *completely
wiped out* Farnham's dominant civilization: culture, religion, the
whole balance of the ecology changed.  The only records left were
some pretty minimal things -- a quote:

   "There are only two other copies of the *Encyclopedia
    Britannica in the world today -- and those are not this
    edition and are in such poor shape that they are curiosities
    rather than something a scholar can work with...."
   -- "Ponce" to Hugh Farnham, pg 176 of the Berkeley 1980
   printing.

There are some extremely pretty gardens in Hiroshima, and it's only
been 40 years.

>The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that
>nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared
>your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you
>could make it.  Of course a required part of your survivalist gear
>is at least one gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few
>surviving humans left and assure your own survival.

You really should talk to a therapist about this abnormal obsession
with guns.  Yes, you can point guns at people -- you can also shoot
deer etc with them.  The Indians wanted guns not to shoot at the
whites with, but because it made hunting so much more efficient.

Dramatically, I'm not at all satisfied with the way things went in
the first parts of FF -- but having guns in the shelter, given that
you are going to try to survive, is the right decision.

>I would say that as I recall Heinlein's story in "Farnham's
>Freehold" that it more closely resembles Reagan's Undersecretary of
>Defense, T.K. Jones statement that "we can survive nuclear war with
>enough shovels.  Just dig a hole a few feet thick and jump in it."
>than any statement by pacifists or even people like Eisenhower or
>Khruschev ('the living will envy the dead')

I have the book in my hands -- well, on my desk next to me -- and I
don't think the text supports that, at least not completely.

In any case, FF *does* reflect the state of our understanding in
1964.  I was trained as a shelter medic and radiation officer in
1970 and it reflected our understanding of the thing THEN.  We've
found out about the other stuff (other than firestorms, about which
you are simply and provably mistaken) since.  So it's not RAH's
fault.

Look, unless I'm really provoked, I'm not going to reply on this
topic again.  As it stands, it's pretty clear that I and others have
proven by reference to the publications that Heinlein *hates* the
idea of atomic war, went to some lengths to get a strong compelling
UN Peace Authority instead of the debating society with caviar
budgets we have, and then wrote stories and books specifically to
point out how awful it might be.  (Read "Solution Unsatisfactory" --
in which he points out that a world empire led by the United States
would be just as tyrannical, just as evil, as any other.  He also
points out what the radiation effects on a population would be, come
to think of it.)

On the other hand, you and the person posting under Tim Maroney's
name have used quotes that are BLATANTLY out of context
(contradicting the whole meaning of the article from which they are
taken, sometimes contradicted by the next *sentence* when the
original text is examined) to argue the opposite.  You refer to your
vague recollections of Farnham's Freehold -- but the vague
recollections are not supported by the text.

So I want, once more, to repeat what I said a few days ago -- you
may not agree with Heinlein, you may want to argue against him --
but it IS NOT FAIR NOR IS IT MORAL to make up things, nor take out
of context quotations which do not reflect the author's meaning, nor
to use your vague recollections as evidence, especially after others
have pointed out using the actual text that you are simply wrong,
just to argue that someone is a bad and Evil Person.  Joe McCarthy
did it, and he was wrong.  Adolf Hitler did it, and he was wrong.
Jerry Falwell does it all the time, and he is wrong.

And as long as you and the other Tim keep doing it, you are equally
wrong.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 86 10:53 EDT
From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb
To: whuts!orb@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

Arrrrrgh!  I can't stand by flamelessly any longer.

Tim Sevener <whuts!orb@caip.rutgers.edu> writes:
> I read Farnham's Freehold and it certainly seemed to me to be more
> of a paean to "survivalism" than to actions to stop a nuclear war
> in the first place.

One way to discredit an idea is to take it to its logical
conclusion.

> His major concern is protecting his survivalist fiefdom from
> looting by others who are starving and so forth.

Feeding the starving is a luxury.  We can talk about feeding the
starving because we are so rich that we throw away food.  If we only
had barely enough food to survive ourselves, we might have to adapt
to the realities of a different situation.

> "Farnham's Freehold" is hardly a realistic view of the effects of
> nuclear war whatsoever.  [...He should at least have known that]
> the certainty than any all-out nuclear war would lead to massive
> firestorms, leaving those in shelters like "Farnham's Freehold" to
> be either cooked alive like those in Dresden, or else suffocated
> by the lack of oxygen consumed by such torrential flames.

My family, perhaps misguidedly, had a bomb shelter constructed in
our back yard and connected to our house about 1960.  It was a
concrete and steel box, with 4 bunks, huge water tanks, a chemical
toilet, a corner to be turned in the entrance way to take care of
hard radiation which came through the thin steel door, three feet of
earth piled on the roof for a radiation shield, an external antenna
and above-ground particulate air-filter, a Geiger counter and
electroscope, an emergency exit which would involve caving in part
of the roof, and a bicycle powered electric generator and
hand-generating flashlights (squeeze them and they glow).

This shelter was located in suburbia.  It could hardly have
withstood a direct hit.  There wasn't much burnable nearby, just
grass overhead and for some distance around, and the air circulation
system could be closed off for several hours, so we might have
survived a firestorm.  (Remember that oxygen depletion is temporary
in all non-end-of-life-as-we-know-it situations.)

The idea was to live through an attack on New York City about 40
miles away.  We planned to wait from two to four weeks for the
prompt radiation effects to die down, and then be rescued by Civil
Defense.  There were no oxygen tanks, no weapons or ammunition, and
no real effort to deal with the long term effects of atomic war.  I
guess my parents weren't survivalists, just scared.

This was in days when *total* atomic war wasn't expected.  It was
just too awful to contemplate.  There might be massive strikes on
silos, but they were far away.  A small number of big warheads would
take out the major cities, and then the war would be declared over
with a winner and a loser.  It may be hard to believe, but this part
of the book is true to life.

> I also don't recall much discussion of the pernicious effects of
> radioactivity- in the region around Chernobyl, a minscule incident
> compared to the effects of an all-out nuclear war [...] Nor do I
> recall Heinlein talking much at all about radiation sickness,
> leukemia, cancer, etc.

Farnham didn't have to allow for the effects of radiation.  It was
dramatically unnecessary since the point of the book was the *long
term* effects of nuclear war.  Since they were magically transported
far into the future, they didn't feel any radiation effects.

It's very nice to talk about the expense of the decontamination of
the area around Chernobyl.  However, when everything is like that,
you make the best of it.  Decontamination isn't an option.  You
accept your shortened life span -- without knowing what will
eventually do you in.  After all, there are no life insurance
companies left.

> The whole impression I recall from "Farnham's Freehold" was that
> nuclear war involved big terrific explosions but if you prepared
> your own survivalist holdout for yourself and you alone, that you
> could make it.  Of course a required part of your survivalist gear
> is at least one gun, if not several, so you can shoot the few
> surviving humans left and assure your own survival.  I.e.
> maintain the same idiotic mentality which has placed us in the
> current position of facing the imminent extinction of the human
> race at any time!

Part of the point of the story was that Farnham's initial
preparations were grossly inadequate, even though he had been more
realistic than many and had taken precautions like having a gun to
cope with the complete breakdown in law and order.  In the last part
of the book, Hugh Farnham and girlfriend can't exist indefinitely on
the hoard they accumulate in the last hours before the holocaust.
They exist by trading on a basis of mutual need and respect with
others like themselves.  The guns, minefield, etc.  are for "human
jackals".

It's nice to be idealistic enough to believe that such types don't
exist.  I haven't had direct experience of them myself.  Perhaps
they are really just made up.  But I read the Boston Globe every day
and it worries me.  The police department would be blown up with the
life insurance companies.  Or perhaps it's just their upbringing and
people would be basically decent if only they were treated nicely.
This may be true but we are not in a position to re-rear the current
crop of adults.  They will be more desperate than usual after the
grocery and liquor stores have disappeared in the firestorms.

About the extinction of the human race: any organism that doesn't
defend itself will soon become extinct.  All life forms, even
viruses, have some homeostatic mechanisms which are intended to
ensure that at least some members of the species will survive.  If
you, in a post-holocaust situation, refuse either to defend yourself
(as a Freeholder) or to participate in the actions of the (starving)
human jackals, then you will be at the mercy of the fates.  You may
survive, but it will be because you were lucky enough to be missed
by the starving or because someone more bloody-minded does your
defending for you.  In the presence of predators, some species seem
to rely mainly on fast reproduction.  Humans can't.  I am not trying
to justify "defensive" systems that would fry the planet if ever
used.  Guns are not in that category.

The author may have been too optimistic.  He assumed the clock would
only be set back about 150 years by the immediate effects of the
war.  This may have been entirely the packaging to enable readers to
read the book without getting so depressed that they vow never to
buy another book by RAH.  In terms of society and the long term,
thousands of years later they were still at a more savage level than
the Roman empire.  Here I can only hope he was too pessimistic.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Sep 86 09:46:49-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Maroney and Heinlein

This is truly mindboggling to me!  I am not a Heinlein fan, have
only read a couple of his stories, so I have no stakes in whether
the man is sane or insane, left or rightwing, whatever.  But the
quotes Tim Maroney quoted seemed OBVIOUSLY facetious and not
intended to represent the author's views.  And after seeing the
surrounding context from Pie From the Sky, I am ASTOUNDED!  Tim
Maroney, please answer:

1. Even if "the old Hiroshima treatment" flippancy didn't tip you
off to the possibility that the quote was perhaps not intended to be
taken seriously, surely now that you have been told the surrounding
context, you would admit that the passage was IRONIC not LITERAL?
Or do you really think that Heinlein is serious and deadly earnest
in wanting to get rid of the old lady with her bowling ball, etc
etc?

2.  Do you realize that if your argument were valid, YOU would be a
supporter of nuclear war?  After all, you wrote a passage in which a
character supports nuclear war.

3.  Do you similarly feel that Mark Twain is racist since some of
his characters call blacks niggers?

I am seriously asking you these questions, not just being
rhetorical.  I think I know how most people would answer them, but I
am genuinely not sure what you will say to any of the three.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 24 Sep 1986 10:05:28-PDT
From: mcwilliams%fsgg.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Ellen A. Doyle DTN
From: 339-5113)
Subject: Heinlein gets "Star Wars" award

For all of you who are STILL convinced that RAH wants nuclear war,
may I inform you that last night the "High Frontier" group at their
anniversary dinner (High Frontier is a group supporting SDI
research) presented him (actually Jerry Pournelle, Heinlein was too
ill to attend) with their writing award. He may be a right-winger,
but at least he doesn't feel all-out confrontation is the way to go,
as has been implied previously here.

Ellen A. Doyle

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #320
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 320

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 86 00:11:22 -0100
Subject: Heinlein and Bomb debate

First (relatively speaking), Tim Maroney quotes some characters in
Farnham's Freehold as a way of "proving Heinlein's support for
nuclear war".  But David desJardins will have none of it -- "Even if
you take this as Heinlein's own opinion, it is vastly different from
*supporting* nuclear war."

And, of course, David desJardins is right.  But what does he win as
compensation for the tarnish on Mr. Heinlein's name -- $1,000,000 or
$3?

The question of Heinlein's own views may not be that important.
After all, we're not going to be able to know *for sure* what he
thinks no matter he says, in fiction or elsewhere.  It might all be
an attempt to deceive us; or, if not that, perhaps he just fails to
make his true meaning clear.

But there are certain views that are promoted, with a fair degree of
consistency, in Heinlein's novels.  No one has suggested, as far as
I know, that his novels are in reality an attack on those positions.
And if they were, many of Heinlein's readers would be dismayed, for
they find his philosophy (or, if you will, apparent philosophy) a
source of inspiration.

Other readers, however, tend to find this stuff a bit hard to take.
And the novels can certainly be criticized in their own right even
if we must reserve judgement on their author.

Still, I don't think it's fair to judge all of Heinlein's work by
Farnham's Freehold.  It's not even fair to judge Farnham's Freehold
by one quotation.  Does the rest of the novel support Farnham's
views on nuclear war, for example, or does it show him to be a fool?

But, suppose we do take this one quotation.  Does saying "it might
be good for us [our country]" amount to "supporting nuclear war"?
Well, not quite.  So David desJardins wins.  But is it "vastly
different"?

As far as I can tell, Farnham is saying that, in the long view,
considering everything, his country will be better off with this war
than without it, not because it would get the country out of a
depression, or because it would make it a world power in an
extremely short time, but because it would tend to kill the stupid,
worthless, overbreeding scum and prevent a government that tried to
repeal natural law from breeding a nation of slaves.

This is a considerably stronger, and I think less acceptable, claim
than that made by a historian who said, not that a period Nazi rule
was, in the long term, better than not having one, but only that it
had a few locally beneficial effects in 30's Germany.  Moreover,
this historian isn't claiming any beneficial effects for the Nazi
campaigns of genocide.

By the way, Farnham is wrong too about his "standard genetics".
Could he really think that being worthless and having worthless kids
is the best way for an individual to survive, in any environment?
That such people survive longer than those that are intelligent?
Perhaps they make a larger contribution to the future of the
species, but that isn't the same thing.

Farnham likes a situation in which the breeding scum automatically
lose both ways, as individuals and as members of the species,
because he thinks that these things are, or ought to be, the same.
Except for governments trying to repeal natural law (and if they
can't repeal the law why do their attempts matter?), the fittest --
those that survive to have children who survive, &c -- would
naturally be the ones with the qualities that he values, because
this what "Fittest", with a capital "F" means -- Nature herself
values the same things Farnham does; and a nuclear war would just
restore the natural order.

Unfortunately for this view, we are not a breed that Nature will
improve; or, if we are, the traits she wants to develop may not be
at all the ones we would pick in her place.  Nature values the
cockroach as much as the man and perhaps more so, especially after a
nuclear war.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 01:44:47 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

I'd like to thank all the people who responded to my messages about
Robert Heinlein without personally attacking me, whether by calling
me a Communist, claiming that I am constitutionally incapable of
perceiving "subtleties", accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, or
any of the other charming epithets that have been hurled at me
during this eminently sensible and level-headed little discussion.
No names come to mind, but I'm sure there must have been at least
one such message.

Naturally, it is impossible to respond individually to each of the
flames, er, responses, since they total over 20,000 words, enough
for a short novel in themselves.  However, only a few points were
raised that are worth examining.

The responses which have any point at all are divided into two
categories.  First, there are people who agree with Hugh Farnham,
though they attempt to downplay the significance of his comments.
That is, they say that it would indeed be somewhat good to see the
race culled of useless people by nuclear war, but that *overall*
Farnham didn't say it would be a good thing.  Second, there are
those who claim that Farnham's statements did not in fact reflect
Heinlein's views at all: that they were meant to be appalling and
were given the lie by the plot of the book.

The second camp is at least worthy of discussion.  The first,
however, is beneath contempt.  This view does not "approach" Nazism;
it is not "like" Nazism; it *is* Nazism, and those who propound it
are of the same breed as the race-purgers of Berlin.  Strong words,
but frankly, I can't think of any words strong enough for someone
who would think of the death of millions of "useless people" as a
good thing.  Enough said.

Before moving on to the second camp, let me lay bare my soul and
admit that in fact I have not read this particular book.  I have,
however, read somewhere between twenty-five and thirty other books
of Heinlein's, and have twenty on my shelves.  I am, in short,
extremely familiar with his fiction and his style, which has
remained oddly consistent for some four decades.  A number of people
have written saying that unless I read every single book he has ever
written, including lengthy collections of essays, and track down
obscure newspaper clippings about his life (I'm not kidding, someone
really said this) - unless, in short, I make the main study of my
life the fulsome wisdom of Robert A. Heinlein, then I have no right
to comment on any of his apparent opinions, since there are bound to
be perspectives I have not encountered.  Frankly, even when I was a
pre- adolescent I was never *that* fond of him!  I would think some
twenty-five books would suffice to qualify me as fairly knowledgable
concerning his views and his ways of expressing them; but it seems
that only a RAH cultist may have the temerity to question the Master
- and of course, no cultist ever would.  (This is a double-bind
familiar from religious debates.)

So why did I accept the apparent message of a lengthy quotation from
a book I had not read?  There are two main reasons.  First, Heinlein
lectures the reader in every novel, and in most of his short
stories.  These lectures are always presented in a very one-sided
fashion, with a clear authorial voice, and are never contradicted by
later events.  Farnham's little propaganda spiel was of a type that
was very familiar to me from my previous readings of Heinlein.  If
in fact Farnham's lecture *was* contradicted, which I am not yet
prepared to concede, it must be the only one which ever was in all
of Heinlein's fiction.  This is a possibility, but I must say that
it seems rather unlikely.

Second, again from my readings of Heinlein, his right-wing
militarism was well known to me.  Heinlein has never attempted to
disguise the fact that he considers the noblest human endeavour
(except possibly sex) to be picking up a weapon and joining with
like-minded men to kill the enemy, whether subhuman "bugs" or
Earthbound officials.  I doubt that even the most adoring of
Heinlein groupies would deny this.  His blissful vision of the
wonders of organized violence would seem quite compatible with a
vision of the purging of the world through ultimate violence.

Now on to those who say that Heinlein contradicted Farnham's speech
by showing a horrific post-war future.  I can only say that, given
the prevalence of those who have agreed with Farnham, he must have
done an exceptionally poor job of it!  No, no, I lie; I can say
other things as well.  My understanding of the plot is that a
nuclear detonation - gosh wow boy oh boy oh boy - actually knocks
them clean into the far future!  The key phrase here is "FAR
future".  From what I have heard, the future is quite remote,
roughly on the order of the distant future in "By His Bootstraps".
This would suggest that the historical connection is somewhat
remote, if Heinlein meant any at all.  For instance, aren't the
blacks non-Negroid, suggesting vast spans of time must have passed,
at least thousands of years?  Farnham never said the war would save
the world forever, only that it would be good for the country.  Even
the Nazis only expected to rule for a thousand years, after all.

This view will be easy enough to contradict if it is wrong.  Just
quote the passages, which I would expect to be of comparable length
to my quote, in which Farnham realizes how terrible his previous
positions had been, and how this hideous world was the actual result
of the nuclear war his generation underwent.  As I've said
previously, if such a quote exists it will be unique in all of
Heinlein's fiction, but that does not make it impossible that it
exists.

Now on to greener pastures, the miscellaneous points.

Some have tried to downplay the significance of Farnham's speech by
pointing out that he begins with conditionals: it might be good for
the country, this could be the turning point, etc.  But whenever
anyone says such a horrible thing, they always try to soften it
somehow.  When someone says "I don't mean to sound callous, but..."
you can be very sure the person is about to say something very
callous indeed.  One of the most common and simple propaganda
techniques is to start off with a somewhat equivocal argument to
draw in the uncommitted, passionately argue in favor of one's
conclusions while always blunting their direct statement with a
conditional, building in intensity and finally dropping all pretense
at equivocation.  This is exactly the course of Farnham's speech, a
rather well-constructed piece of propaganda whose efficacy is
demonstrated by the people who have stated agreement with it here.

Is Heinlein a fascist?  I have been called on to defend my assertion
that he is.  Now, frankly, I don't remember calling him a fascist,
and I usually avoid the word, because it has been so overused that
it is about as meaningful as "cocksucker".  Nonetheless, I do think
that the word in its classical sense does apply to Heinlein.  The
word "fascism" comes from the Latin word "fasces", an official
symbol of the Roman government.  It was a bundle of twigs bound
together, the idea being that any by itself could easily be snapped,
but that if they were bound together, you could clune people on the
head with them for days.  Well, more or less like that.  Anyway, the
identity of fascism with militarism should be obvious from this root
symbolism: an army is just such a bunch of fasces, and extolling it
as an exalted and noble thing, rather than a necessary evil, is
fascism.

A few people have claimed that part of the "Heinlein ethic" places
great value on the individual.  As an anarchist, I don't think so.
In Heinlein's fiction, the vast majority of people are always
portrayed as beyond any hope, terminally stupid, and in general
cattle that we would all be much better off without.  (Another
reason I am willing to think that Heinlein has entertained the
notion that killing off most of the race and sparing the soldiers
would be a lovely thing....)  The protagonists are always far above
the rest of humanity by their very nature.  This is no more a
genuine committment to individual liberties than Neitzsche's
ostensible support for the individual while scoffing at the idea of
personal rights.  If this is support for the individual, then so is
"Lord of the Swastika", Spinrad's novel written by Adolph Hitler
(packaged as "The Iron Dream") to show how many science fiction
writers are frustrated Hitlers.  Feric Jaggar could easily be a
Heinlein hero....

This sort of "rugged individualism" was a mainstay of extremist
right-wing sentiment in the 1940's and 1950's (come to think of it,
these people were also survivalists...)  It was coupled with a
willingness to jail dissenters and a hatred for a free press.  I
don't find it any more convincing now.

Do I worship Michael Moorcock?  Let's not be silly, folks.  The
first time I mentioned his essay "Starship Stormtroopers", I took
care to point out a significant disagreement between us.  If you
want, I'll point out some other flaws I see in his politics and in
his style, though I don't think it's germane to this discussion.
This is just a very clumsy attempt to turn around my charges of
Heinlein-worship, despite the obvious facts to the contrary.  Here's
a challenge: Find anywhere in the many paeans recently sung to the
great god RAH a single statement of disagreement.  Good luck!

"Pie from the Sky".  The quote from "Ghastly Beyond Belief" does
appear to have been out of context.  However, this does not make
everything cut and dried in favor of Heinlein.  I'll grant that "Pie
from the Sky" is somewhat anti-nuclear, and for the purposes of
argument only I'll grant the same to "Farnham's Freehold".  Now
imagine that there were some writer who wrote essays and novels
explaining that, even though it does seem like a lot of the world's
problems would be solved by putting all the blacks and orientals in
gas chambers, in fact this would have somewhat negative effects in
addition to the obvious benefits.  I think it would be perfectly
reasonable to assume that this writer was a racist and an unethical
bastard, despite the correctness of his final conclusions.  Applying
the same principle to Heinlein's explanations that, despite
appearances, just nuking the planet might not be all good, it seems
reasonable to assume that he is rather misanthropic and
unprincipled.

There are reasons other than a desire to maintain indoor plumbing
and to avoid foraging for food that make the "nuclear alternative"
manifestly unacceptable: little things like respect for all life and
every human being, which for some reason have evaded Heinlein's
attention.  To put this more directly, why does Heinlein return to
refuting this obviously appalling argument unless he finds it
personally compelling?  It seems like praising with faint damns at
best.

I'd like to thank Tim Sevener for his messages, which I largely
agree with.  There is one point of disagreement worth mentioning.
Tim cited "Stranger in a Strange Land" as a possible exception to
Heinlein's normally right-wing ideology.  As this Fall's "Whole
Earth Review" points out, though, mysticism has always had more
adherents from the right than from the left. Heinlein's
all-talk-and-no-action shallow utopianism is a fine example of the
sort of mysticism preferred by the right wing.  I should point out
that I'm a mystic myself, but that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the
history of the thing.

I don't expect to convince any Heinlein fan of anything bad about
Heinlein, any more than my infamous essay "Even If I Did Believe"
has ever convinced a Bible believer of the evil of Yahweh.  I just
enjoy pointing out the truths that most people would rather leave
unsaid.  Go right on idolizing him, and Hemingway and other great
American sissies (as Gore Vidal put it) as well.  It's a somewhat
free country....

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0856-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #321
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 321

Today's Topics:

           Books - Ellison & Kay & Silverberg & Zelazny &
                   Star Trek Novels (3 msgs) & Story Search &
                   Author Lists

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Sep 86 14:34:31-EDT
From: eric(wccs.e-simon%weslyn@weslyan.bitnet)
Subject: harlan and isaac

Regarding the further discussion of the egos of Isaac Asimov and
Harlan Ellision, I thought y'all would find this passage
interesting.

It is taken from _Dangerous Visions #1_ which has comments from both
men.  The passage describes the first time these two gentlemen met;
perhaps the greatest meeting of egos since the time Asimov dined
alone.

                     Foreward 2 - Harlan and I
                          by Isaac Asimov

This book is Harlan Ellison.  It is Ellison-drenched and
Ellsion-permeated.  I admit that thirty-two other authors (including
myself in a way) have contributed, but Harlan's introduction and his
thirty-two prefaces surround the stories and embrace them and soak
them through with the rich flavor of his personality.
     So it is only fitting that I tell the story of how I came to
meet Harlan.
     The scene is a World Science Fiction Convention a little over a
decade ago.  I had just arrived at the hotel and I made for the bar
at once.  I don't drink, but I knew that the bar would be where
everybody was.  They were indeed all there, so I yelled a greeting
and everyone yelled back at me.
     Among them, however, was a youngster I had never seen before: a
little fellow with sharp features and the livest eyes I ever saw.
Those live eyes were now focused on me with something that I can
only describe as worship.
     He said, "Are you Isaac Asimov?"  And in his voice was awe and
wonder and amazement.
     I was rather pleased, but I struggled hard to retain a modest
demeanor.  "Yes, I am," I said.
     "You're not kidding?  You`re *really* Isaac Asimov?"  The words
have not yet been invented that would describe the ardor and
reverence with which his tongue caressed the syllables of my name.
     I felt as though the least I could do would be to rest my hand
upon his head and bless him, but I controlled myself.  "Yes, I am,"
I said, and by now my smile was a fatuous thing, nauseating to
behold.  "*Really*, I am."
     "Well, I think you're --" he began, still in the same tone of
voice, and for a split second he paused, while I listened and the
audience help its breath.  The youngster's face shifted in that
split second into an expression of utter contempt and he finished
the sentence with supreme indiference, "-- a *nothing*!"
     The effect, for me, was that of tumbling over a cliff I had not
known was there, and landing flat on my back.  I could only blink
foolishly while everyone present roared with laughter.
     The youngster was Harlan Ellison, you see, and I had never met
him before and didn't know his utter irreverence.  But everyone else
there knew him and they had waited for innocent me to be neatly
poniarded - and I had been.
     By the time I struggled back to something like equilibrium, it
was long past time for any possible retort.  I could only carry on
as best as I might, limping and bleeding , and grieving that I had
been hit when I wasn't looking and that not a man in the room had
had the self-denial to warn me and give up the delight of watching
me get mine.
     Fortunatley, I believe in forgiveness, and I made up my mind to
forgive Harlan completely - just as soon as I had paid him back with
interest.
     Now you must understand that Harlan is a giant among men in
courage, pugnacity, loquacity, wit, charm, intelligence - indeed, in
everything but height.
     He is not actually extremely tall.  In fact, not to put too
fine a point on it, he is quite short; shorter, even, than Napoleon.
And instinct told me, as I struggled up from disaster, that this
young man, who was not introduced to me as the well-known fan,
Harlan Ellison, was a trifle sensitive on that subject.  I made a
mental note of that.
     The next day at this convention I was on the platform,
introducing notables and addressing a word of kindly love to each as
I did so.  I kept my eye on Harlan all this time, however, for he
was sitting right up front (where else?).
     As soon as his attention wandered, I called out his name
suddenly.  He stood up, quite surprised and totally unprepared, and
I leaned forward and said, as sweetly as I could:
     "Harlan, stand on the fellow next to you, so that people can
see you."
     And while the audience (a much larger one this time) laughed
fiendishly, I forgave Harland and we have been good friends ever
since.

  Isaac Asimov
  February 1967

I just though that was funny.

Take care,
Eric J. Simon
wccs.e-simon%weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1986, 10:07:30 EDT
From: "Brent T. Hailpern"  <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: The Wandering Fire (NO spoiler)

I just finished reading _The Wandering Fire_ by Guy Gavriel Kay and
published by Arbor House.  TWF is the second book in the "Finovar
Tapestry".  The first book was _The Summer Tree_.

The basic plot is some Earth graduate students are induced to help
out in the war between good and evil in Finovar - the "first" world
(in the same sense that Amber is the real world in Zelazny's
series).  The first book (TST) was very enjoyable - especially the
concept of the Summer Tree (which I will not even attempt to
describe and ruin for those who have not read it).

TWF takes up about 6 months after the end of TST.  Evil has caused
winter to last well into summer and our heroes try along with the
good guys to lift winter and get the final battle against evil under
way.

If you like fantasy, _The Summer Tree_ is well worth reading and
probably worth buying.  Unfortunately, _The Wandering Fire_ is not
nearly as good.  Solutions to problems come out of thin air and
there is no new character development.  "Wild magic" (similar to the
same term in the Thomas Covenant series) is thrown in for effect,
but seems to have no consistent basis in the story.  My overall
impression is that the author is eager to do the last book, which I
assume is on the battle with evil, and needed to bring in a couple
new factors (the Warrior, the Child, and the one who must make the
choice between good and evil).

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 23:10:34 GMT
From: dciem!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg (SPOILER)

> I like Silverberg's novels; I really do.  But this one is so
> exasperating, so annoying, ...

I like Silverberg's novels too, though I haven't read his very thick
ones of recent years, and I like Evelyn Leeper's review.  But I
disliked TOM O'BEDLAM for reason quite different from hers.

> So what do I find so exasperating?  Not Silverberg's writing
> style-- that is as good as ever. ...

Not for me.  To me it felt as if this was a novel of 2/3 its actual
length that had been padded out to the length currently considered
desirable by publishers.  I would have made massive cuts in the
first half of the book.

> ...  It's the message that drives me up the wall.  ... [Tom's]
> visions, and those of the newly born tumbonde' sect, and those of
> the patients in an exclusive mental institution near Mendocino all
> point toward an apocalyptic transition for the human race.  This
> vision is best expressed by one of the converts to tumbonde': "The
> gate will open; the great ones will come among us and make things
> better for us ..."

That is what happens in the story...

> ... My objection ... is that Silverberg seems to be saying that we
> needn't do anything to improve things here on earth--powerful
> alien beings will show up to solve all our problems.

But I don't think that that's the message.

> ...  Tom, because of his mutation, is a critical nexus in the
> Crossing.  And while some people are eager to "cross" and become
> the wards of these super-beings, others are not.  And how does Tom
> feel about sending these, in effect killing them on Earth to send
> their souls elsewhere?  "It wasn't a killing anymore than the
> other killings were. ... I didn't kill you ... I did you the
> biggest favor of your life."  So also said the Inquisition as it
> lit the auto da fe'.

Good parallel.  Because there are two other interpretations of Tom's
talent that are possible.  He could simply be broadcasting
*delusions*.  When he *think* he is sending someone to another
world, he is killing them.  This is why some characters are
reluctant to be sent!  However, they get sent anyway, willy-nilly.

It's also possible that he is right about the other worlds existing
-- there is evidence presented that they do, but some choose to see
it as another form of broadcast delusion -- but that, as the one
most suited to receive and project the visions, he has gone mad and,
again, thinks he can send people there when he is really killing
them.

The book carefully *does not show* that anyone arrives at the other
worlds.  Neither does it say that they do not arrive there.  The
last chapter ends with Tom, feeling his power growing with practice,
starting to send them in greater and greater numbers while the
bodies pile up around him.  There is no scene on another world.  Is
he really transporting souls, or are the skeptics right?

The other worlds of the book are much like Heaven.  Some people
think they know that it exists and how to get there, and they go to
great time and effort to convince others to share their faith, but
the issue will never be decided by physical proof here on Earth.

But some people will always believe.  Are they wrong if, like the
Inquisition, like Tom O'Bedlam, they act according to this belief?

I think the book is capable of being read as either a statement for
or against faith and religion, depending one which characters one
identifies with.  I suspect that it was simply intended to make us
*think* about faith.  Because it is also saying that, right or
wrong, *believers* will always be with us.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 15:57:56 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Amber

I finally got a copy of Blood of Amber.  It's GREAT!  I haven't
finished it yet, (woman lying next to me jabs me in the ribs: "Turn
out the light, for chrissakes!")  so I don't want to talk about it
and encourage spoilers.

However, I'd like to know if anyone out there would like to discuss
the first series.  Specifically, I have a couple of questions:

***SPOILERS FOLLOW of the first five Amber books and a minor spoiler
of Trumps of Doom***

We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King
Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is
Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather.  I think it is established
that Chaos lords have very limited abilities to travel in shadow,
and must either use constructs like the Black Road, or follow an
Amberite through shadow.  (Which apparently anyone can do.)
However, the Chaos lords have other powers, like shape shifting and
conjuring.

We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon
by enscribing the Pattern.  Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts
are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and
represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow.  If the
Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon
originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern?  In
all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel freely
in shadow by walking the Pattern.  This brings up a chicken-and-egg
question.

Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does walking
the pattern do gene damage? :-)

Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?

One of the things I like most about Zelazny's writing is that he
doesn't explain anything, he just tells the story and leaves it to
you to figure out what's going on.  This makes the story move right
along and makes the reader pay attention.  Piers Anthony could take
a couple of lessons from him.  The Blue Adept stories were OK, but I
rapidly tired of having the plot spoon-fed to me.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 86 22:58:53 GMT
From: hpcnoe!jason@caip.rutgers.edu (Jason Zions)
Subject: Re: Enterprise: The First Adventure

> *sigh* Why can't Pocket publish more good fannish-style novels,
> like Crisis on Centaurus?

Ouch, say it isn't so. I liked the background part of *Crisis on
Centaurus*, but the plot of the book sucked eggs. Yuck! I hope the
fannish press is capable of writing better than that!

Some very interesting character development happens in Crisis, but a
lot of it tampers with the way things are for characters in the tv
series. Events happen in the tv episodes to which the characters
react in a particular way; if their background actually was as
described in this book, their reactions would almost certainly be
different.

Now, for a *good* ST novel, try "The Wounded Sky" or "Uhura's
Song"...

Jason Zions
Hewlett-Packard
Colorado Networks Division
3404 E. Harmony Road
Mail Stop 102
Ft. Collins, CO  80525
{ihnp4,seismo,hplabs,gatech}!hpfcdc!hpcnoe!jason

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 86 14:54:49 GMT
From: spp2!urban@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Urban)
Subject: Re: Enterprise: The First Adventure

jason@hpcnoe.UUCP (Jason Zions) writes:
>Now, for a *good* ST novel, try "The Wounded Sky" or "Uhura's
>Song"...

Hint: Before reading "The Wounded Sky", read C.S. Lewis's
"Chronicles of Narnia", and especially "Voyage of the Dawn Treader".
It's evident that Diane Duane did.

Mike Urban
trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 22:24:52 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Re: Enterprise: The First Adventure

urban@spp2.UUCP (Mike Urban) writes:

>Hint: Before reading "The Wounded Sky", read C.S. Lewis's
>"Chronicles of Narnia", and especially "Voyage of the Dawn
>Treader".  It's evident that Diane Duane did.

Don't forget Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide.  "I always knew there
was something fundamentally wrong with the universe."

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 03:12:59 GMT
From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Story Searches

From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
> Some specific scenes: A large ship with a very large model of the
> galaxy that the hero could light up is described in great detail.
> There are many space battles with englobments and such. At one
> point, our hero impresses a bunch of local on a planet by riding
> down his spaceship ramp apon a horse. It is

Assuming that the original memories are correct and complete, it
isn't Doc Smith's Lensman series, despite the large tactical display
tanks and frequent use of englobement in battles.  The horse
definitely doesn't occur in Doc Smith.  Other than that it's very
close.

As a fan of Doc Smith, I'll be looking forward eagerly to the
resolution of this search -- I think I want to read it.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 07:32:38 GMT
From: chinet!magik@caip.rutgers.edu (Ben Liberman)
Subject: Re: author lists

jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) writes:
>cjhoward@watnot.UUCP (Caleb J. Howard) writes:
>>My question is this: Is there some place to get ahold of complete
>>lists of specific authors' material?
>I'm also interested in obtaining a complete listing of publications
>on

The last time that I was in Minneapolis at Uncle Hugos, I saw a book
that lists by author, by pub. date, most everything that I have ever
seen in science fiction (and much fantasy).  I don't recall the
title, etc.
 Could someone out there (I'm in Chicago) take note of it the next
time they are in the store, and post it here?
Thanks.

Ben Liberman
ihnp4!chinet!magik
ihnp4!homebru!magik

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #322
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Sep 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 322

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) &
                         The Prisoner (5 msgs) & 
                         More Marionation (2 msgs) &
                         Title Request (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 13:51:00 GMT
From: hoqam!bicker@caip.rutgers.edu (KOHN)
Subject: Re: Star Trek's Century.

From: Silas_Snake <CCU1693%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
> I always understood that in the FORMAT of ST, it was specifically
> set in the 23rd century (still roughly consistent with the Space
> Seed lines) but the two hundred year imprisonment line is backed
> up in another episode. When the Enterprise crew meets Abraham
> Lincoln, I believe Scotty refers to the fact the he died "over
> three hundred years ago!"  This, of course also places it in the
> 22nd Century.

Did anyone ever consider the expanse of time between the movie which
opened with "In the 23rd Century" and the series?  Space Seed
ocurred in the end of the 22nd Century and the movies some 5 or 10
years later.  Or does something else contradict that?

------------------------------

Date: Sat 27 Sep 86 21:36:03-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Re: Timeframe of Star Trek

Just saw the episode where the Air Force officer threatens to lock
up Kirk for 200 years, which "ought to be about long enough".  This
seems fairly persuasive for the argument that ST is set 200 years
from now.

Then I became totally convinced from just seeing the Khan episode
with Ricardo Montalban; it is very explicitly and unambiguously
stated that Khan's ship had left earth during the "eugenic wars" in
the 1990's, and that they used cold sleep due to primitive drive
technology requiring long travel times, but by 2019 they had fast
drives (presumably meaning faster than light) (And by the way,
"Aliens" clearly takes place after 2019, so they must have had FTL
:-) Anyway, Khan was asleep for 200 years, so unless Spock & Kirk
were mistaken in their history, ST must be 200 years from now.
(Unless the scriptwriters screwed up :-)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 14:21:33 GMT
From: phri!lewando@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Lewandoski)
Subject: Re: Star Trek's Century.

   Last night I saw an episode... cant remember the name, but its
the one where the Enterprise and characters are held captive by an
all-powerful madman (on, I think the planet Gideon...) who wants
everyone to play act for him, Earthstyle circa 1800 ( or 1900 ??).
Remeber this one? At the end he turns out to be a little boy of all
all-powerful parents who set things right "If you cant keep good
care of your pets then you can't keep them"... ANYWAY...he professes
to be a student of Earth but seems to not realize that the Earth
he's been observing (thru, it is implied some all powerful light
telescope) is Earth of the 1800 (or 1900s I can't remember)
...ANYWAY...  Kirk says "the Earth you,ve been studying is 900 years
in our past" SO this means ST is in the 28th ( or 29th) century.
Nothing like consitency.

Mark L

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 86 21:32:13 -0200
Subject: Re: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin
Cc: Lynn%PANDA@sumex-aim.stanford.edu

> To be exact, the sign represents the letter "shin" in the Hebrew
> alphabet.  Shin is the first letter in the word "Shalom" (Peace),
> and the shin sign is used during High Holy Day (Rosh Hashanah, Yom
> Kippur) services.

Slight correction: the sign doesn't come from "Shalom", but from
"Shaday", an archaic Hebrew word for God.

By the way, I noticed a few scenes in which Kirk and McCoy try to
make the sign, and aren't very succesful. Does anybody know why?

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:           eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:   eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:             ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal

------------------------------

Date: 24 September 1986 11:45:54 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
Subject: Questioning "The Prisoner"

    Recently a local station has started showing "The Prisoner" late
at night (up against "Doctor Who"). I've only seen two episodes, and
I have some questions:

1) Who exactly is Number 6?
2) What agency did he resign from? Why did he resign?
3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there?
4) What is the significance of the opening scene in which a balloon
   rises from the water and a voice says, "I am not a number--I am a
   free man!"
5) Does he ever escape?

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 15:08:47 GMT
From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" (* SPOILERS *)

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>1) Who exactly is Number 6?

His real identity is never revealed. At the end of the series,
though, there was a hint that he might be Number 1.

>2) What agency did he resign from? Why did he resign?

The agency was never revealed. Since his headquarters were in London
I've always assumed it to be MI-5 (or is it MI-6, I can never
remember). They never revealed why he resigned.

>3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there?

The true purpose of the Village was never revealed though I feel it
safe to say that most of its inhabitants were probably prisoners
like Number 6.  Number 6 was being held there because they wanted to
know why he resigned.

>4) What is the significance of the opening scene in which a balloon
>   rises from the water and a voice says, "I am not a number--I am
>   a free man!"

Well, the balloon is Rover. Some sort of creature or robot that was
used to capture people attempting to escape. Its usual tactic was to
jump on top of them and envelope their faces so that they couldn't
breath and would pass out. The voice over is a conversation between
Number 2 and Number 6 when Number 6 first arrrives in the Village.
At the time Number 6 is voicing his defiance at being reduced to
nothing but a number and is asserting his own individuality.

>5) Does he ever escape?

Yes. The final episode was a two parter in which Number 6 escapes
with several inmates who played major roles in past episodes and who
symbolize various facets of his personality. They get away in a
truck driven by the Butler. After dropping the others off at various
places Number 6 and the Butler drive to a house and they go in. As
the door closes we see that the house is number 1.  Instead of the
normal close, with bars slamming in front of Number 6's face we see
a series of shots very reminiscent of the opening credits.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 00:40:58 GMT
From: epimass!jbuck@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner"

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>1) Who exactly is Number 6?
>2) What agency did he resign from? Why did he resign?
>3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there?
>4) What is the significance of the opening scene in which a balloon
>   rises from the water and a voice says, "I am not a number--I am
>   a free man!"
>5) Does he ever escape?

"That would be telling".

The whole point of watching the show is to determine what it means.
Is it a dream?  Is it reality?  As you watch each show you learn
more.

The group of "Prisoner" fans that believe the whole thing is a dream
is called the "comma faction".  Why?

"I am number two".

"Who is number one?"

"You are [,] number six."
          ^
          ?

Joe Buck
{hplabs,fortune}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck
nsc!csi!epimass!jbuck
Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 07:02:51 GMT
From: csustan!cjo@caip.rutgers.edu (chris ohlsen)
Subject: Re: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner" (* SPOILERS *)

ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) writes:
>U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>>3) What exactly is the Village? Why is he being kept there?
>The true purpose of the Village was never revealed though I feel it
>safe to say that most of its inhabitants were probably prisoners
>like Number 6.  Number 6 was being held there because they wanted
>to know why he resigned.

My own personal (no flames please) ideas on this are that the
Village is a place where old retired spys like #6, go when they wish
to drop out of the "game." Not all the people there are people in
this case, some may just be companions for those "prisoners." Any
people who "knew too much", or were too high level to retire were
sent to the village. I would assume that most accepted this fate
better the #6, but as is obvious, many wish to escape from the
village as well.

Mind you these are my own opinions, I was not an avid fan of the
show. Please feel free to discuss this further, but please no
flames!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 22:41:33 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Prisoner Trivia Quiz

I won't answer Carlo Samson's questions now, that would spoil some
of this quiz.  Be warned that the answers sort of spoil the show.

1. "Where am I?"  "In the Village."

   [5 pts] Where was the Village?  There are three answers given in
   the show, but only one has hard evidence.

   [2 pts] Where was the actual set of the Village?

2. "What do you want?"  "Information"

   [1 pt] Exactly what information did they want?
   [6 pts] And what is the correct answer to their question.
        (This one is open to interpretation)

3. "You won't get it!  "By hook or by crook, we will"
   [2 pts] In what episode did they come closest to getting it?"

4. "Whose side are you on?"  "That would be telling."
   [4 pts] Whose side were they on?

5. "Who are you?"  "The new number 2."
   [2 pts] Which actor had more than one stint as number 2?
   [4 pts] Which actor to play #2 appeared in the most episodes?
   [3 pts] Which actor played a character with no number?

6. "Who is number 1?"
   [3 pts] Who was number 1?  There is a clue hidden in this quiz.

7. "You are number 6."
   [4 pts] What other numbers did the Prisoner have during his stay?
   [3 pts] What was the Prisoner's real name?

8. "I am not a number, I am a free man!"
   [6 pts] When was the Prisoner's real name used to address him
   during the series?

Mail your answers to watmath!looking!brad.  My judging will be
arbitrary.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Tue 23 Sep 86 10:50:43-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%HP-THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: does anyone remember...

I recall watching two shows using marionettes that no one has
mentioned:

Super Car - The only thing I remember is that this "car" could
   fly and go under water, but it had no wheels (and
   I remember wondering why they called it a car).

Captain Scarlet - This one had a flying fortress, with three female
   fighter pilots named Rhapsody, Harmony, and Melody.  All of the
   officers were named after colors (Capt.  Green, Col. White,
   etc.), and the organization was called either Spectra or Spectrum
   or something along those lines.  Their main antagonist was a race
   of aliens who took control of humans to do their deeds (the race
   may have been called the Mysterions, but I may be confusing that
   with another series).

Anyone remember these?  I think I saw them in the early 60's in
Indiana.  I remember having the impression that Captain Scarlet was
a British series.  I think I saw Super Car in English, but I may
have seen it in Japan before my family moved to the US.

Haruka Takano
Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 16:50:06 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: does anyone remember...

From: Haruka Takano <Takano%HP-THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>

> Captain Scarlet - This one had a flying fortress, with three female
>   fighter pilots named Rhapsody, Harmony, and Melody.  All of the
>   officers were named after colors (Capt.  Green, Col. White,
>   etc.), and the organization was called either Spectra or
>   Spectrum or something along those lines.  Their main antagonist
>   was a race of aliens who took control of humans to do their
>   deeds (the race may have been called the Mysterions, but I may
>   be confusing that with another series).

Yup, saw it in England, early 70's I think. The series was actually
called "Captain Scarlet and The Mysterons", or that's how I remember
it at least.  The airplanes were great and you used to be able to
get pictures of them in packets of bubblegum (yech); the Mysterons
would manifest themselves as patches of light floating about
Spectrum's control room during the title sequence and that's all I
remember of them. Then there was the signature tune...

Does anyone here remember Joe Ninety, another superanithingy series?
As I remember, it came out at about the same time as Captain
Scarlet; a geek in glasses who would deal with international spy
rings. There was also this big spinning metal cage ...

Tim Abbott
{allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca
tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 18:05:59 GMT
From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst)
Subject: old SF TV movies

Does anybody remember a movie which played on television about a
futuristic city built beneath the ocean? The plot revolved around a
giant planetoid which was going to strike the earth, directly on top
of this city. There was a character who had been (genetically,
surgically) altered so that he could breath water. This show also
had what I think is the first appearance of the flying submarine, a
la Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. I think the movie was called
"City Beneath the Sea", but I'm not sure. Does anybody know if this
is available on video?

David Hurst, KSC
Gould Research Center
email:  ...ihnp4!grc97!hurst
phone:  (312) 640-2044

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 20:35:13 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: old SF TV movies

I remember the movie, but not well.  It was based (if it wasn't
based, parts of it were stolen) on a James Blish story (Torrent of
Faces sounds familiar, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 23:24:32 GMT
From: ism780c!geoff@caip.rutgers.edu (Geoff Kimbrough)
Subject: Re: old SF TV movies

hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes:
>Does anybody remember a movie which played on television about a
>futuristic city built beneath the ocean? The plot revolved around a
>giant planetoid which was going to strike the earth, directly on
>top of this city. There was a character who had been (genetically,
>surgically) altered so that he could breath water.

Hmm, there was a mercifully short-lived series called "Man from
Atlantis" which fits this bill.  Maybe that's what you're thinking
of.  (No doubt there was a pilot, later shown as a "TV Movie".)

>This show also had what I think is the first appearance of the
>flying submarine, a la Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

*If* my above surmize is correct, it would have been the *2nd* (at
least) appearance.  VttBotS ran about a decade earlier, I think.
(unless the pilot was *much* older than the show.)  Anyway, I doubt
it's available on video, but stranger things have happened.

Geoffrey Kimbrough
INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation,  Santa Monica California
ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 86 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #323
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 323

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Impossibilities (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 86 10:25:49 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael Brothers)
Subject: impossibility and implausibility

It is obviously true that nothing can be validly declared
impossible.  Even logical contradictions are only invalid within the
logical framework that they are stated in. As for scientific
theories, well they are constantly being updated. reorganized, etc.
perhaps not so drastically as Einstein's various theories
reorganized Newton's "Laws", but in the same manner of speaking.

                            **HOWEVER**

There are certain sorts of phenomena which would require essentially
scrapping most of modern physics to accept, something which
Relativity and the Lorenz-Fitzgerald equations did NOT do to Newton
-- they just showed Newton's equations to be a degenerate case....
Examples of these effects are time-travel, ftl travel (if you allow
one, you allow the other), action-at-a-distance (ie psi phenomena),
and many of the other sf concepts we hold near and dear.

I would suggest that no sf book which has these elements should
really be considered "hard" sf, since the introduction of any one
really screws up modern physics to the extent that any of the others
is reasonable, or even likely. Like a book that had ftl travel would
be justified in having magic, or any other weird effects since given
such a lapse, anything is really possible. Of course too much
weirdness would completely destroy the suspension of disbelief, but
that is only because, deep-down, most of these concepts like ftl
etc. seem intuitively reasonable. Either they shouldn't, really, or
science is inherently counter-intuitive. Or .... ftl, etc. really is
the case and modern theories are just wrong.

Now I am not advocating the removal of all these wonderful and
fantastic elements from sf -- after all, ftl is what space-opera is
all about, just for one thing. But authors and readers should be
aware just what the ramifications of positing such wide-reaching
changes to current scientific thought are.

And naturally, it is my opinion that authors should strive to avoid
such innovations wherever possible. If you can get the same effect
by obeying all the natural "laws" currently known, why screw around
with unlikelihoods like ftl when you don't have to? You can only
weaken the sense of reality you are striving to achieve.

And one final piece of advice (drawn from my vast writing
experience?  Well, no. But I certainly have read a lot). If you must
introduce something like ftl, DON'T try to explain it in detail. You
can only sound stupid to people who know something about the field
of science involving your particular innovation. It is far safer to
let your star drive go as a "warp bubble" or "hyperdrive" or
whatever than to try and convince your reader that if they were just
to apply six equal and opposing forces to a gyroscope they would
wind up in Oz, which was one of my umpty-ump objections to Number of
the Beast (ignoring the plot, huh?)

I hope I haven't sounded too pontifical in this message, but I
suppose I have. Tough.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 86 17:51:32 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Impossibilities (...and Recommended Reading)

gallmeis@unc.UUCP (Bill Gallmeister) writes:
>The point of this disconnected raving is that the rules we posit
>are only as good as the environment they are proposed in.  What is
>God's Truth today (pick your dogma; any dogma!) can be disproven in
>an instant if we poke our heads out of the little rut we live in.
>FTL transport will become a reality, and all it will mean is that
>we were wrong. Again.

If I may make a distinction here, there is a great deal of
difference between "we will always be wrong about some things" and
"we will always be wrong about everything".  The first seems very
likely to be true; the latter is absurd.

Now, it is not in general possible to know which of the things we
believe are right, and which will ultimately prove incorrect.  Thus,
the strongest statement I think is justified is that "FTL transport
may become a reality".  Personally, I suspect that it will not;
i.e., "FTL transport will probably not become a reality".

By the way, I also believe that "interstellar travel will almost
certainly become a reality".

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 06:04:26 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

Bill Gallmeister writes:
>>2. Man has rules and the universe -- just kind of works.  In
>>   reality, there is no E, or M, or C, and certainly no
>>   "squaring".  These are labels man uses to define our universe.
>>   They are only true so far as we can see today.
>
>   There is a name for the opposite belief -- that the behavior of
>the universe can be understood.  It is called 'science.'
>Understandably, therefore, those of us who consider ourselves
>'scientists' don't go along with your opinion as expressed above.

I disagree.  There is no contradiction between the practice of
science and Gallmeister's statement; his statement isn't about the
possibility of scientific knowledge, but rather one of what that
knowledge means.  If one accepts the premise, then one can draw two
conclusions:

1: That the universe must be trusted before the models, and

2: that a theory claiming that something is impossible must be read
   with all the implications about the permanence and structures of
   physical law kept in mind.

There is an argument about the possibility of communication with FTL
particles (Tachrons) which claims that it is impossible, because of
TT paradoxes.  The problem is that any such argument is based on a
lot of speculation about what time-travel really means.  More
fundamentally, it is based upon a whole network of notions about
causality.  But if the universe does in fact have tachrons going
from place to place, then the new theory need not honor those
notions (although it must explain their apparent macroscopic truth).

>>3. The universe is uncharacterizable in its entirety by Man,
>>   because we are only Man, and when we characterize a thing, we
>>   bring our own bias into the matter.
>
>   There is no evidence to support your statement (that the
>universe is uncharacterizable), and there is substantial evidence
>to the contrary (every successful prediction of science provides
>such evidence).

That merely shows that we can model some portion of the universe
which we experience.  I think the statement is a bit extreme, but it
is a question again of what scientific models mean.  I happen to
believe that they for almost all purposes satifactory as models.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1986 09:59 EDT
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Impossibilities

To the person who doesn't like to think in terms of impossibilities,
I applaud you.  Naturally there are some things that can not be done
by man alone at this point, but with the right tools he can do just
about anything he sets his mind to.

To the person who dismissed the aforementioned as "wanting a
universe with laws the way he wanted them, and not the way they
actually are" (not a direct quote), I say ptooey.  As I said before
there are some things that can not be done, but a vast majority of
the uses of "impossible" in various circles are inaccurate.  My
attitude in this matter is in the "middle" -- I prefer to take the
most scientific attitude possible (i.e., if I jump out an 10th-story
window and flap my arms I will end up so much road-pizza on the
pavement below), while allowing my mind to conceive circumstances
where such apparent impossibilites might be overcome.  There is
certainly nothing irrational or insane about such an approach.

As far as the FTL debate, I would say all of you who tout the
"accepted impossibility of FTL travel," you'd better go back to
studying Eintein's papers on the subject of relativity.  Nowhere
does it say "FTL travel is impossible."  His theory merely proposes
that no particle having mass can ACCELERATE past the speed of light.
There is nothing in there that rules out the idea of quantum jumps
of velocity past "c," for instance.  I seem to remember similar
evidence (like not so long ago) stating that man could not endure
speeds exceeding the speed of sound either.

Also, the lowly tachyon.... now there's an anomoly for those of you
who claim no FTL travel.  That sucker sure seems to travel FTL.  As
a matter of fact, the range of velocities of tachyons has probably
not begun to be recorded.  I strongly suspect time goes on
scientists will discovers more and more "shells" of particle
velocity, similar to the atomic quantum shells.  That's my pet
theory as a layman, anyway.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 16:39:58 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Impossibilities - tachyons? yes tachyons.

From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
> Also, the lowly tachyon.... now there's an anomoly for those of
> you who claim no FTL travel.  That sucker sure seems to travel
> FTL.  As a matter of fact, the range of velocities of tachyons has
> probably not begun to be recorded.  I strongly suspect time goes
> on scientists will discovers more and more "shells" of particle
> velocity, similar to the atomic quantum shells.  That's my pet
> theory as a layman, anyway.

Huh? I wanna see your tachyon, oh please lemme see your tachyon!

(And while you're at it how 'bout some references to some articles
about the actual observations and any concrete evidence of their
existence.)

And wot about some different types of tachyon - now there's a goody;
you know jus' like there's diff'rent types of Quark. And a few more
quantum numbers, we ain't got nearly enough yet, or even half a
dozen more parallel universes, I've already visited all the ones we
got round here and boy are they dull!  More variety, man! That's wot
we need. Like, err, a little more fiction in real life, like err, if
my imagination was, like, real, you'd all be crazy too.

Yeah, and while we're at it, more shells, that's wot we need, more
shells, I mean with all the pretty colours, and the way that they
all shine pink on the inside, and when you hold them up to your ear
you can hear the sea.  I like the pretty shells too.

Tim Abbott
{allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca
tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 22:14:05 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
>To the person who doesn't like to think in terms of
>impossibilities, I applaud you.  Naturally there are some things
>that can not be done by man alone at this point, but with the right
>tools he can do just about anything he sets his mind to.

     Prove it. There are many, many things man has wanted to do, and
not been able to accomplish. Nor is there any evidence man will ever
be able to do all the things he might wish.

>To the person who dismissed the aforementioned as "wanting a
>universe with laws the way he wanted them, and not the way they
>actually are" (not a direct quote), I say ptooey.

And I say ptooey back (see below).

>As far as the FTL debate, I would say all of you who tout the
>"accepted impossibility of FTL travel," you'd better go back to
>studying Eintein's papers on the subject of relativity.  Nowhere
>does it say "FTL travel is impossible."  His theory merely proposes
>that no particle having mass can ACCELERATE past the speed of
>light.  There is nothing in there that rules out the idea of
>quantum jumps of velocity past "c," for instance.

   Einstein's papers on relativity are not uniquely authoritative on
what is or is not possible -- why bring up this red herring? In any
case, there is nothing which indicates teleportation is possible,
and much (have you ever heard of it happening?) which indicates it
isn't.  Why believe in teleportation and not the Tooth Fairy, when
you have the same amount of evidence in both cases? *I* at least am
perfectly willing to admit teleportation might be possible, even
faster than light. But I am also willing to admit the Tooth Fairy
might really exist. Are you?

>I seem to remember similar evidence (like not so long ago) stating
>that man could not endure speeds exceeding the speed of sound
>either.

   Seeing you say this is evidence to me you don't know what you are
talking about. The cases *are not* closely analogous.

>Also, the lowly tachyon.... now there's an anomoly for those of you
>who claim no FTL travel.  That sucker sure seems to travel FTL.  As
>a matter of fact, the range of velocities of tachyons has probably
>not begun to be recorded.  I strongly suspect time goes on
>scientists will discovers more and more "shells" of particle
>velocity, similar to the atomic quantum shells.  That's my pet
>theory as a layman, anyway.

   And here is more evidence. Did it ever occur to the reason the
velocity of tachyons has not been measured is that tachyons
themselves have never been measured? They probably don't exist,
since there is no observational support but there *are* theoretical
arguments that they lead to contradictions in quantum field theory.
As far as "shells" of velocity -- you are gibbering.  Why not wipe
the spittle off your lips and *learn* some science? The people who
have some idea what they are talking about before they post will
respect you more. Your arrogance in telling *other* people to read
up on relativity is breathtaking. Why not adopt your own advice? You
might find out what the arguments against FTL travel are, and be in
a position to give a reasoned judgement on how convincing they might
be.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 18:42:15 GMT
From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities (the Law of Fives)

Please allow me to quote the Law of Fives:
   All phenomena are directly or indirectly related to the number
   five, and this relationship can always be demonstrated, given
   enough ingenuity on the part of the demonstrator.

This is the very model of what a true scientific law must always be:
a statement about how the human mind relates to the cosmos. We can
never make a statement about the cosmos itself--but only about how
our senses (or our instruments) detect it, and about how our codes
and languages symbolize it.

We must remember that scientific inquiry can only build possible
models to describe the behavior we have observed. In this sense, we
cannot understand the universe, but only the models which we build.
We can never make predictions about what the universe will do; we
can only make predictions about our models. Sometimes these models
accurately reflect what we observe, sometimes they don't. Since
these models are human artifacts, they must _necessarily_ reflect
our experience of human existance. They are not and can never be
complete representations of the universe!

This is not to say that the models we build are not useful! On the
contrary, they may be very useful, depending on their accuracy. But
these models are useful only in that they reflect our experience.
The results of scientific inquiry are not Truths of the universe.
Rather, they are statements about ourselves and how we perceive the
universe.

David Hurst, KSC
Gould Research Center
email:  ...ihnp4!grc97!hurst
phone:  (312) 640-2044

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 86 0804-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #324
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 324

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 01:34:24 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: More on Heinlein

I got word today from an unimpeachable source who knows Heinlein
personally that in fact those people who said Farnham's Freehold is
meant to be *against* nuclear war are correct.  When this person was
informed that there are people here who are supporting Farnham's
views on nuclear war's positive effects, he groaned and said that
he'd met people like that too.  He also said, when the title was
first mentioned, that it was a really lousy book.

This means I was wrong about one thing; Heinlein has apparently been
against nuclear war for a while.  But everything else I said stands.
Heinlein is a militarist; he does in fact think the best people are
soldiers; he is misanthropic and callous.  It's not as if the idea
that nuclear war is good is a popular one and therefore in need of
popular refutation; his harping on this theme is hard to explain in
any other way than a personal attraction to it, and this says a
great deal about his character.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 05:08:03 GMT
From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's panegyric for the Bomb

From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney):
>The responses which have any point at all are divided into two
>categories.  First, there are people who agree with Hugh Farnham,
>though they attempt to downplay the significance of his comments.
>That is, they say that it would indeed be somewhat good to see the
>race culled of useless people by nuclear war, but that *overall*
>Farnham didn't say it would be a good thing.  Second, there are
>those who claim that Farnham's statements did not in fact reflect
>Heinlein's views at all: that they were meant to be appalling and
>were given the lie by the plot of the book.

   Don't think I fit perfectly in either camp; guess my last
response got buried in those 20000 words. I'm nearly in the second
camp, except that I don't think FF gives much evidence of RAH's
views on nuclear war *either* way; that just ain't what the book's
about. What *is* certain is that FF is not a book that actively
*supports* Farnham's suggestion that nuclear war might be a good
thing.

>The second camp is at least worthy of discussion.  The first,
>however, is beneath contempt.  This view does not "approach"
>Nazism; it is not "like" Nazism; it *is* Nazism, and those who
>propound it are of the same breed as the race-purgers of Berlin.

   I think you misunderstand this group in the same way you
misunderstand Heinlein. You read Hugh Farnham as saying the death of
millions was a good thing; they read him as saying it might have at
least one good consequence: that the megadeaths might in some degree
weed out more of the "least useful". Now, I happen to think that's a
silly idea, but it ain't Nazi. The Nazis are the ones that want to
be the instruments of evolution, weeding out the unfit themselves.
Neither Farnham nor the "first-campers" suggest any such thing. They
only say that, if it happened, it might have that effect. Sounds
more to me like seeking for a silver lining than a denial of the
evil cloud.

>...Second, again from my readings of Heinlein, his right-wing
>militarism was well known to me.  Heinlein has never attempted to
>disguise the fact that he considers the noblest human endeavor
>(except possibly sex) to be picking up a weapon and joining with
>like-minded men to kill the enemy, whether subhuman "bugs" or
>Earthbound officials.  I doubt that even the most adoring of
>Heinlein groupies would deny this.

   This one will! If we are to assume we can glean Heinlein's
opinions of the military from his novels, then I would have to say
he must have deep conflicts about it. On the one hand, STARSHIP
TROOPERS reads like a Marine recruitment pamphlet; yet the typical
Heinlein protagonist is almost without exception a rebel, and poor
at following orders. Oscar Gordon, the hero of GLORY ROAD,
summarized his military career this way: "I was promoted to
corporal. I was promoted seven times. To corporal. I didn't have the
right attitude." Heinlein is on record, also (I mean in essays, not
glib assumptions made from what a character in one of his novels
says) as absolutely opposing the draft, and considering it a pure
case of slavery.
   Based on his books, Heinlein obviously belongs somewhere on the
Objectivist/Libertarian part of the political spectrum. He does
believe in a strong military, and deeply distrusts the Russians.
Communism is anathema to him. But I don't think this makes him a
militarist. He also has a deep distrust of government, and the
military don't look as pretty in his other books as they do in
STARSHIP TROOPERS. In "The Man Who Was Too Lazy To Fail" (part of
TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE) it is portrayed as pretty bad. The hero is a
midshipman at 20th century Annapolis.  He finds much sadism and
hypocrisy. He takes up fencing to fulfill the stupid requirement
that all midshipmen participate in sports, because it's a gentle
sport whose participants seldom get injured. He gets good at it to
duck the worst of the upperclassmen's sadism (don't disable our star
fencer, boys).
   Heinlein was a midshipman at Annapolis, and was a championship
fencer there. Hmmm...
   I think Heinlein admires some of the military ideals very much:
that of service, of being willing to lay down your life for your
fellow man, of honor, of courage. But he is a man who has seen both
the military and politics from the inside, and it's clear he
disliked much of what he saw. He seems to despise coercion in all
forms.

>My understanding of the plot is that a nuclear detonation - gosh
>wow boy oh boy oh boy - actually knocks them clean into the far
>future!  The key phrase here is "FAR future".  From what I have
>heard, the future is quite remote, roughly on the order of the
>distant future in "By His Bootstraps".  This would suggest that the
>historical connection is somewhat remote, if Heinlein meant any at
>all.

   The time period, I think, was about 2000 years. We agree here.
There's no clear indication that the nuclear war was directly
responsible for the far-future society. That's the point. There's no
major connection between FF and the nuclear war issue.

>This view will be easy enough to contradict if it is wrong.  Just
>quote the passages, which I would expect to be of comparable length
>to my quote, in which Farnham realizes how terrible his previous
>positions had been, and how this hideous world was the actual
>result of the nuclear war his generation underwent.  As I've said
>previously, if such a quote exists it will be unique in all of
>Heinlein's fiction, but that does not make it impossible that it
>exists.

   If you REALLY believe Farnham was saying the nukewar was a good
idea, perhaps this will contradict it. From FF p. 203:
   "a missile-and-bomb holocaust that... smeared cities from Peiping
to Chicago, Toronto to Smolensk; fire storms that had done ten times
the damage the bombs did; nerve gas and other poisons that had
picked up where fire left off; plagues that were incubating when the
shocked survivors were picking themselves up and beginning to hope -
plagues that were going strong when fallout was no longer deadly."
...
   "But there it was. The scrolls said that it had killed off the
northern world."
   Does that sound like the survivalist manifesto you accuse
Heinlein of? Winnable nukewar, the tough survive, etc.? According to
FF, nearly all the survivors survived simply because they lived in
the southern hemisphere; is that standard survivalist doctrine?

>Is Heinlein a fascist?  I have been called on to defend my
>assertion that he is.
   (Tim goes on to argue that fascism=militarism, and Heinlein's a
militarist, QED.)
   The *connection* of fascism with militarism is obvious.  Fascism
basically means imposing military-type discipline and regulation on
the entire population. But I can't imagine anything farther from
Heinlein's apparent attitudes. If there's one message that's sounded
over and over again in his books, it's that the larger and more
pervasive your government is, the more trouble you're in. Heinlein's
heroes are constantly *escaping* from such systems, or overturning
them: the corporate fascism of the Moon in THE MOON IS A HARSH
MISTRESS; the guild-dominated culture of STARMAN JONES; the slavers
*and* the Free Traders of CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY; the list goes on
and on.
   He does seem to see some virtue in the military, I grant. If that
makes him a fascist then I guess I'm a fascist, too, but I don't
look at things as pure black and white. I was passionately opposed
to the Vietnam war, and am deeply distrustful of today's Pentagon,
but there *are* such things as military virtues, Tim. The soldier's
real job is not to kill for his country, it's to die for his
country. There can be nobility in that, and sacrifice, as there was
in WW II.

>A few people have claimed that part of the "Heinlein ethic" places
>great value on the individual.  As an anarchist, I don't think so.
>In Heinlein's fiction, the vast majority of people are always
>portrayed as beyond any hope, terminally stupid, and in general
>cattle that we would all be much better off without.  (Another
>reason I am willing to think that Heinlein has entertained the
>notion that killing off most of the race and sparing the soldiers
>would be a lovely thing....)  The protagonists are always far above
>the rest of humanity by their very nature.

   This is an interesting point. I at least partially agree.  On the
one hand, Heinlein sings hymns to the virtues of individual freedom,
yet his heroes seem nonchalant about doing things that affect the
lives of many others, without asking them.  They seem elitist,
certain that they are right, and impatient with opposition. It
sometimes seems that he favors liberty only because that's the
system that lets his kind of people rise to the top most easily.
Well, maybe so. But I don't think that makes his belief in freedom
any less genuine.

>Do I worship Michael Moorcock?  Let's not be silly, folks.

   Sorry to hear it; I kinda worship him. Rate him right up there
with Heinlein. I take both their politics with a grain of salt,
though :-).

>"Pie from the Sky".  The quote from "Ghastly Beyond Belief" does
>appear to have been out of context.  However, this does not make
>everything cut and dried in favor of Heinlein.

   Tim goes on to explain how the apparent irony of "Pie From The
Sky" may have in reality been a double whammy, arguing for nuclear
war by "praising with faint damns". Tim, it's a short essay, maybe
10 pages. If you still want to argue its meaning, read the damn
thing; otherwise, why not just accept the universal judgment of
everyone who's read it? I didn't ask you to read FF before speaking
further on it because it's long, and really not very good, but this
is just a little essay. Just read it, and then tell us if there are
secret messages between the lines.

>Heinlein's all-talk-and-no-action shallow utopianism is a fine
>example of the sort of mysticism preferred by the right wing.  I
>should point out that I'm a mystic myself, but that doesn't mean
>I'm unaware of the history of the thing.

   A mystic and an anarchist, and you detest Heinlein's insides!
Forgive me for seeing irony in this. Judging by his books, Heinlein
is something close to an anarchist himself. 'Course, he's more a
*right*-wing anarchist, so I guess that's no good :-). He also
betrays a mystical streak in many of his books. And STRANGER IN A
STRANGE LAND, among others, rakes religion, specifically Xianity,
over the coals in a way very similar to your "Even If I Did Believe"
essay. SIASL also has an approving attitude toward different and
freer sexual mores, something I recall you defending in other
discussions. Even your writing is similar to his: opinionated,
polemical, colorful, and very individual. And intelligent even when
wrong :-).
   Don't mean to imply you're obligated to like the man or his books
just because you agree with him on some things, but it *is*
interesting, since your dislike seems ideological.

>I don't expect to convince any Heinlein fan of anything bad about
>Heinlein, any more than my infamous essay "Even If I Did Believe"
>has ever convinced a Bible believer of the evil of Yahweh.  I just
>enjoy pointing out the truths that most people would rather leave
>unsaid.  Go right on idolizing him, and Hemingway and other great
>American sissies (as Gore Vidal put it) as well.  It's a somewhat
>free country....

   Oh, come now. I can say lots of bad things about Heinlein's
books. They draw from a very limited cast of characters, they're
often overly talky, they're loosely plotted, and tend to tail off
into unsatisfying climaxes... or did you mean, convince me of
something bad about Heinlein the person?  That's a bit trickier.
He's a very private man, and has let little about himself become
public knowledge. I can speculate about his opinions based on his
fiction, as I have above, but only with the clear disclaimer that I
*am* speaking of fiction.  You talk of the consistency in his
opinions over the years, but you never mention the differences.
Despite the similarities, RAH's books disagree with each other about
all *kinds* of things.  Compare STARSHIP TROOPERS with MOON IS A
HARSH MISTRESS, for example. So, how safe is it to conclude things
about the author from his books? And especially from isolated
quotes?
   I don't expect to convince you either, Tim, I just thought it
would be fun to try. It has been. Care to comment?

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 06:42:59 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Maroney and Heinlein

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>I am ASTOUNDED!  Tim Maroney, please answer:
>1. Even if "the old Hiroshima treatment" flippancy didn't tip you
>   off to the possibility that the quote was perhaps not intended
>   to be taken seriously, surely now that you have been told the
>   surrounding context, you would admit that the passage was IRONIC
>   not LITERAL?  Or do you really think that Heinlein is serious
>   and deadly earnest in wanting to get rid of the old lady with
>   her bowling ball, etc etc?

I am AMAZED!  (Not really, but it looked like so much fun when you
did I just had to give it a try...)  Yes, I have "admitted" that the
quote from "Pie from the Sky" was out of context.  But I find the
context equally disturbing, albeit for somewhat different reasons.
Heinlein never says that killing off all these annoying people would
be bad in itself, or that the main evil is the formerly
unimaginable mass murder of hundreds of millions of people; his
argument seems to be that those who did survive would be lacking the
comforts of civilization and would regret the war that thrust them
into these circumstances.

>2.  Do you realize that if your argument were valid, YOU would be a
>   supporter of nuclear war?  After all, you wrote a passage in
>   which a character supports nuclear war.

I did?  When?  But in any case, I have become convinced that
Heinlein does not support nuclear war.  That hardly changes the
opinion of his "philosophy" I gained from reading tens of his books,
however.

>3.  Do you similarly feel that Mark Twain is racist since some of
>   his characters call blacks niggers?

I suppose in my message of yesterday I should have mentioned this
point concerning Huck Finn, since a number of people have brought it
up.  I really don't think the two novels are comparable.  I recently
paraphrased a dialogue fragment of Twain's on net.books, where one
character jarringly ignores the humanity of blacks.  I cannot
imagine any racist trotting out this quote and saying, "Huh, see,
blacks ain't human!"  On the other hand, right on this group we have
seen proto-Nazis using Farnham's schpiel as support for the idea
that nuclear war would have some good effects.  This is not a
difference in intent, just in skill.  Twain was an eminently skilled
satirist, whereas Heinlein is not.  He is a fairly skilled
propagandist, and unfortunately he used his propaganda skills in
writing the passage I quoted.

Thank you for your polite message.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Oct 86 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #325
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 86 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #325
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 325

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bova & MacAvoy & Norton (2 msgs) &
                     Zelazny (5 msgs) & Story Title Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1986  23:43 EDT (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: Michael Laufer <mlaufer%CCT.BBN@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Cc: ringwld!jmturn%CCA.CCA@EDDIE.MIT.EDU
Subject: Book Search

From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer at cct.bbn.com>
>James Turner (ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA) writes:
>>The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a
>>force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the
>>galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965, and the author's name or
>>psuedonym is probably early in the alphabet. He read it first in
>>hardcover.
>
>I too have been looking for this book.  It is by Ben Bova.  I first
>read it in hardback from a school library.  A minor character in
>the book appears as a younger man in another of Ben Bova's books, I
>believe it is called _As_On_A_Darkening_Plain_, as the main
>character.  I apologize that I cannot at the moment remember the
>name of this book.  The story line has the earth people fighting
>the GUARDIANS for the freedom to expand the boundries of the TERRAN
>EMPIRE.  They are also looking for the OTHERS who previously
>destroyed the earth.  I loved it.  I wonder if the story will hold
>up if I reread it now?

I believe the book is "Star Watchman."  I've never read it, but I
remember hunting for it for a long time some years ago.  There is a
quasi-sequel to it as well, called "Star Guard" or something like
that.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 17:44:01 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>     THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in
>this case, the Celtic.  While I agree that Celtic mythology may
>have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am
>getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and
>pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science
>fiction/fantasy sections these days.  Don't get me wrong.  MacAvoy
>does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these
>days.

Before I rant, let me say that this is nothing personal.  It's just
that certain critics in local and national press have been taking
this attitude and it drives me up a wall.  In fact, it seems to be
endemic to the mental disease (sorry, mental STATE) which drives
people to become critics...

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK NECESSITY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT?  So,
you've read several other books using Celtic mythology, SO WHY
SHOULD MacAvoy have to not write one, just because OTHER people have
already?

I see that there's a local theatre company thinking of doing a
Gilbert and Sullivan play.  How foolish, why should they bother,
other people have already done it recently on TV and in movies, and
it just isn't NECESSARY.

Feh.  With this attitude, why should Heinlein continue to write?  Or
Ellison?  Or Asimov, Niven, Pournelle, etc.  Why should Beethoven
have bothered with more than three symphonies?  Why should
Michaelangelo have bothered to paint more than one cherub on the
ceiling?  Why, indeed, should there be anything at all on television
or radio?  (IS THERE anything at all on television or radio?)

Sure, a topic can be done to the saturation point, and knock-off
cheap shoddy imitations on a topic can be done by the thousands, but
that should not mean that it cannot be done.

Critics tend to have a notion that they have artistic "Taste" and
that as arbiters of taste, their opinion ought to matter, even to
the point of influencing the artists whose works they criticize.
They are usually mistaken about this.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 86 10:03:32 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Norton "Witch World"

> There is a sequel to _Sign of the Unicorn_ about the 2 main
> character's child.  Sorry I don't know the name of it right now,
> (I'm at work)

The sequel to 'Year of the Unicorn' is 'The Jargoon Pard'.  See also
'Gryphon in Glory' for events leading up to YoU.

Dani Zweig

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1986  23:48 EDT (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Norton's Witchworld

There are also two other sets of books:

The Gryphon Books:

1.  The Crystal Gryphon
2.  Gryphon in Glory
3.  Gryphon's Eyrie

and a separate book, although I believe it links to the Unicorn
book, called the "Jargoon Pard."  Several of the characters from
Unicorn show up late in the story.  I also vaguely recall a sequel
to Jargoon, but I don't really remember.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 16:16:26 GMT
From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Amber

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon
>by enscribing the Pattern.  Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts
>are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and
>represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow.  If the
>Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon
>originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern?  In
>all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel
>freely in shadow by walking the Pattern.  This brings up a
>chicken-and-egg question.

   First of all, Dworkin created the pattern, not Oberon.  This is
made clear in THE HAND OF OBERON, which also explains that Dworkin
inscribed the pattern literally under the noses of the Chaos Lords
and that all of Shadow was then aligned between Amber and Chaos -
somewhat like filings about the poles of a magnet.  A more
interesting questions arises from Corwin's pattern: what happens to
Chaos, Amber, and Shadow when a third pole is added?

>Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
>apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
>don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
>walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

   This is perhaps explained in BLOOD OF AMBER, where Zelazny seats
us in Merlin's mind as he performs a shape change.  Merlin uses the
Logrus to do this.  So, perhaps only initiates of "Chaos' pattern"
can shape change.  This implies that both Dworkin and Oberon have
traversed the Logrus, which makes sense since Oberon commented to
Dworkin once about the rigors of growing up at the Courts.  Also,
since Brand was able to summon monsters and lighted cigarettes,
presumably, he, too, mastered the Logrus.  Hence, the children of
Amber could do so as well.

   Merlin's manipulation of the Logrus brings about another
interesting line of investigation.  Mainly, if Merlin can use the
Logrus (which is probably just another aspect of the primal pattern)
the way he does, why can't he use the Pattern of Amber similarly?
It seems that Chaosians are much more sophisticated in the
manipulation of their pattern than the Amberites are in theirs.
Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a.
Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it.

>Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
>Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?

   Dworkin told Corwin (Dworkin thought that Corwin was Oberon) in
THE HAND OF OBERON that the Unicorn was his mother.  Dworkin is, of
course, insane.

>One of the things I like most about Zelazny's writing is that he
>doesn't explain anything, he just tells the story and leaves it to
>you to figure out what's going on.  This makes the story move right
>along and makes the reader pay attention.  Piers Anthony could take
>a couple of lessons from him.  The Blue Adept stories were OK, but
>I rapidly tired of having the plot spoon-fed to me.

   I agree.  I too, I am tired of Piers Anthony killing a good idea
by constantly trying to explain the reasons he had each of his
characters do each little act and think each trivial thought.
Another thing about his work that bothers me is the portrayal of
good and evil and the necessary simplifications his characters
undergo in order for him to mold them into his melodramatic themes.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 86 16:45:12 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: My Mother the Unicorn [Amber spoilers] and A. Lincoln

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson):
>ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian):
>>Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and
>>the Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?
>
>   Dworkin told Corwin (Dworkin thought that Corwin was Oberon) in
>THE HAND OF OBERON that the Unicorn was his mother.  Dworkin is, of
>course, insane.

Not neccessarily.  For example:

1. Oberon could have shape-shifted into something vaguely
   horse-like in order to impregnate the Unicorn with Oberon.
2. Dworkin is speaking metaphorically [a lousy way out but
   possible].
3. We don't know enough about the Unicorn to answer this or any
   question about her.
4. A better answer exists which I will not post.  Rather,
   through subtle shiftings of Shadow via the Pattern and the
   Logrus, I will ensure that someone else on the Net will
   post that answer.

>>One of the things I like most about Zelazny's writing is that he
>>doesn't explain anything, he just tells the story and leaves it to
>>you to figure out what's going on.  This makes the story move
>>right along and makes the reader pay attention.  I rapidly tire[]
>>of having the plot spoon-fed to me.

This is one of Zelazny's strong suits.  Although there are many
readers who prefer a little more verbosity, I prefer the Zelazny [or
the Hemingwayesque, which is too long a word] terseness.  This is
for stylistic reasons.

On occasion I have read stories in which literally nothing was
superfluous to the plot.  Anything mentioned -- someone's hobby,
someone else's habits -- would eventually come to bear directly on
the story line.  Such stories are difficult to write, and more
difficult to write well [that is, without sacrificing character
development to naked plot].  I think of these stories as being
structured almost like diamond: atoms linked with each other in a
dense and precise series of linkages without gap or flaw, making an
unbreakable whole.

Find some time a copy of Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address."  Look at
his use of the word 'dedicate.'  He manages, through very tight
structuring and reference, to build a remarkably clear and coherent
paragraph without loose ends.  Lincoln may have been a good
President, but more importantly he was a hell of a writer.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 21:03:22 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Amber

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
>apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
>don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
>walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

   I don't know about the other questions, but I would assume that
this is the old heredity vs. environment argument; I've always
assumed that growing up in the Courts of Chaos, amongst things
chaotic (including physical laws), would give one the shape-shifting
ability/curse.

Joel ({allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 86 21:12 EDT
From: <SYSMSH%ULKYVX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: 'blood of amber'

I just picked up "BLOOD OF AMBER" also.  It doesn't really answer
very many questions raised by "TRUMPS OF DOOM".  Is everybody sure
this is just going to be a trilogy?  Anyone aware of what the next
in the series will be?  I'm trying to figure out who the masked
wizard is.  I assume that this is the key to the whole mess.  Could
it be Brand?  Perhaps Corwin himself?  I'd be interested in hearing
anyone elses thoughts on this via net mail...

Mark Hittinger
systems programmer iv
OCIS south center
University of Louisville
Louisville, Ky 40292
sysmsh%ulkyvx.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 00:45:16 GMT
From: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Amber (SPOILER: Nine Princes Series)

My wife Lisa had these answers to pass on.  (She has just finished
the series and, in any event, retains things much better and longer
than I.)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
> We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King
> Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is
> Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather.  ...
>
> We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by
> Oberon by enscribing the Pattern. ...  If the Chaos lords have
> only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon originally travel
> away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern?

In THE HAND OF OBERON, Dworkin, mad though he is, does indicate that
it was *he* who created Amber.  In Chapter 5, as he talks to Corwin
(whom he thinks is Oberon), he talks of those days.  He says "I am
the Pattern..."  (See QUESTION 3, below.)  It is also here that
Corwin learns that they are Dworkin's grandchildren.  In this same
section we find Dworkin saying "By the Unicorn, thy mother..."
Oberon was a product of Dworkin and the Unicorn.  (We cannot speak
of "beastiality" since human-form is clearly not Dworkin's real
form, and who knows what the Unicorn *really* is.)

> Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
> apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
> don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
> walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

In THE COURTS OF CHAOS, in Chapter 2, they speculate on this.  Dara
is there and she can shape-change.  As she says, "All whose origins
involve Chaos are shapechangers."  She goes on, "Oberon is a son of
Chaos.  A rebel son of a rebel son, but the power is still there."
When asked why they cannot by Random, she asks, how do you know you
cannot?  Have you ever tried?  And notes, perhaps the ability has
died out with their (the third) generation.  (Remember, The Unicorn
was not of Chaos, and none of Oberon's wives were.)

> Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
> Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?

See Question 1, above.

Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center
INET: avolio@decuac.dec.com
UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 10:47 EDT
From: denber.wbst@Xerox.COM
Subject: Here's the Plot...

...what's the title?  I remember reading this story a long long time
ago - I think it's moderately well known.  It's about a scientist
who decides to actually perform the "monkies and the typewriters"
experiment, where according to probability, eventually the monkies
will, by typing randomly, produce all of the world's great works of
literature.  He gets a bunch of monkies together and teaches them to
pound on the typewriters.  Years go by, and all they produce is
gibberish, until one day a monkey starts typing some Shakepeare
plays, word for word.  The scientist is astounded as the monkey
finishes a play and goes on to Moby Dick.  He can't accept this
violation of probability and finally shoots the monkey, who with his
dying gasp, types out "Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Harriet Beecher ..."
and slumps over dead.  Help - what *is* this story?  Please reply
directly to me as I'm not on the list.  Thanks.

Michel
Denber.WBST@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 86 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #326
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 326

Today's Topics:

      Television - Battlestar Galactica & Blake's 7 (3 msgs) &
                   Hitchhiker's Guide & Phantom Empire &
                   The Phoenix & The Prisoner (2 msgs) &
                   Spectreman & More SF TV

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 06:25:16 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: History of the Cylons Re: Lost In Space/Battlestar Galactica

>>>"In Battlestar Galactica, the super-cylon set to advise Baltar
>>>had a very familiar voice - that of the man you love to hate,
>>>Jonathan Harris, aka Dr. Smith."
>
>>It was Patrick Macnee (sp?), he of the bowler and brollee on "The
>>Avengers," who later played an antichrist figure on B. G.
>
>It was both. Patrick Macnee was the 'Imperious Leader', but
>Jonathan Harris was the voice of Lucifer (??), Balthar's advisor.
>Patrick Macnee did indeed play Count Iblis.

I think the point is missed here.  I'm not sure I should admit I
know this much about the show, but the "antichrist" figure, also
known as Count Iblis, WAS the Cylon imperious leader, or the organic
Cylon as some knew him.

[Before people say this sounds like the Bruce Spence/Mad Max debate,
there was a scene where "Count Iblis" confronted Baltar (the
traitor) whom he had just brought to prison on Lorne Greene's ship.
Baltar identified Iblis' voice as that of the Cylon imperious
leader, as he was the only living human who had heard that voice.]

[Many of you may be unaware that there was a cinema version of the
B.G.  Pilot.  In the TV version, the leader ordered Baltar's
execution, but decided to stay it so he could chase the humans.  In
the cinema version, his head was chopped off, most satisfactorily.]

Anyway, it was never stated in so many words, but it isn't hard to
piece together the history of the Cylons.

"Count Iblis" was a rogue member of a vastly superior anarchistic
race with a policy of not allowing their members to use their super
powers to interfere in the affairs of lesser beings.  They had no
law against the use of seduction and argument, and Iblis was the
type who loved seducing lesser creatures into his power.

A long time ago, the Cylons were an organic race.  Iblis, simply as
a politician, won his way to leadership of this power-hungry race.
He convinced them to build a series of warrior robots.  These Cylon
robots conquered the neighbouring systems, but in Berserker style
also killed all of their organic creators, except for the Imperious
Leader himself.

The I.L. then sent his creatures out after mankind, and this is
where the series began.  Much later, he appeared to humans in the
Iblis form, and seduced several, although not Richard Hatch, the
star.  He was about to kill Hatch's new love interest, when Hatch
stepped in the way and was killed instead.  This constituted a use
of his superior powers against a human who was not one of his
followers, and was a violation of the laws of the superior race.
They hauled him away.

I can't believe I just wrote all this about a show that was
otherwise horribly laced with flaws.  Nonetheless it is an
interesting history worthy of good SF and quite above the normal
level of the show.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1986 10:22:13 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Blake's 7

    We've been getting "Blake's 7" here for several months now, and
I find it a most enjoyable show, second only to "Doctor Who". Right
now we're about five episodes into the second season.

Comments and questions:  (========SPOILERS========)

1) How did Gan die? (I missed that episode).

2) During Blake's absence, I expected Avon to take charge of the
   Liberator.  However, when Dayna and Tarrant joined the crew he
   seems to have let Tarrant assume command. Since Tarrant is a
   newcomer, I don't think he should be giving orders to everyone as
   if he had been with the crew from the start. (I was especially
   bothered when he and Dayna insinuated that Cally had anything to
   do with the ship's course change in the episode "Dawn of the
   Gods").  My question is: does Blake ever return? (Just a yes or
   no; I don't want to know the details).

3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I belive), she kissed
   him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like "I hope
   your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then expected some sort
   of romance to develop between them. However, in the episodes
   after that (that I've seen so far), nothing happens. Did the
   writers just forget about it, or does something eventually happen
   between them?

Most of the episodes that I've seen have been quite good, but I
especially liked the episode "City at the Edge of the World" for
Colin "the 6th Doctor" Baker and Valentine "the White Guardian"
Dall's appearances, and for Vila's romance with the female space
pirate Kerrill.

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm
U09862@uicvm.bitnet
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 15:35:08 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7 **SPOILERS**

> 1) How did Gan die? (I missed that episode).

In the episode "Pressure Point" during the attack on what Blake
though was the Central Control (later identified as Star One).
After Travis exploded a grenade in the underground complex Gan
supported a closing door to let the others through & was trapped.

> 2) During Blake's absence, I expected Avon to take charge of the
>    Liberator.  However, when Dayna and Tarrant joined the crew he
>    seems to have let Tarrant assume command. Since Tarrant is a
>    newcomer, I don't think he should be giving orders to everyone
>    as if he had been with the crew from the start. (I was
>    especially bothered when he and Dayna insinuated that Cally had
>    anything to do with the ship's course change in the episode
>    "Dawn of the Gods").  My question is: does Blake ever return?
>    (Just a yes or no; I don't want to know the details).

Avon won't be bothered arguing with Tarrant -- as long as Tarrant
doesn't interfere with what Avon wants to do.  The ship does need a
pilot & as long as Tarrant can do that job he can hang around.
*But* watch Avon and Cally close ranks to protect Vila in "City On
the Edge Of The World."  You will see Blake again in "Terminal" and
"Blake".

> 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I believe), she
>    kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like
>    "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then expected
>    some sort of romance to develop between them. However, in the
>    episodes after that (that I've seen so far), nothing happens.
>    Did the writers just forget about it, or does something
>    eventually happen between them?

Nothing happened on the show.  Fan writers have some theories :-).
Paul Darrow commented on that same question "Avon doesn't like
girls, he likes *women*.  He doesn't have time to teach her the
terrors of the universe."  He does, however, feel responsible for
her (something he's not always comfortable with!).

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 22:28:00 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

> 1) How did Gan die? (I missed that episode).

Gan died because Blake made a mistake and fell for a trap.

> 2) During Blake's absence, I expected Avon to take charge of the
>    Liberator.  However, when Dayna and Tarrant joined the crew he
>    seems to have let Tarrant assume command. Since Tarrant is a
>    newcomer, I don't think he should be giving orders to everyone
>    as if he had been with the crew from the start. (I was
>    especially bothered when he and Dayna insinuated that Cally had
>    anything to do with the ship's course change in the episode
>    "Dawn of the Gods").  My question is: does Blake ever return?
>    (Just a yes or no; I don't want to know the details).

No one is really in command of the Liberator after Blake leaves.
Avon manages to dominate most of the others, though.

Someone said that Blake made two more appearances after he left.
Anyway, he never rejoins the group.

> 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I belive), she
>    kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like
>    "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then expected
>    some sort of romance to develop between them. However, in the
>    episodes after that (that I've seen so far), nothing happens.
>    Did the writers just forget about it, or does something
>    eventually happen between them?

Nothing really happens between any of the crew.  There was a scene
where Blake met his girlfriend.  Jenna looked rather jealous.  Any
romance that goes on seems to be between the good guys and the bad
guys.  Similar to the BBC's policy of "no hanky-panky in the
TARDIS", I guess.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 00:37:48 GMT
From: hsgj@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Mr. Barbecue)
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide Videos

Does anyone have a copy of the first episode of the "Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy" on videotape?  I didn't know one of our local
public TV stations was goping to be showing it until too late.  I
would be willing to trade any or episodes 2-6, or any serial from
Colin Baker's first season as Dr. Who.

Please reply via e-mail, so as not to clutter up the net.

Thanks in advance,
Jeff Metzner

ARPA:  hsgj%vax2.ccs.cornell.edu@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP:  ihnp4!cornell!batcomputer!hsgj
BITNET:  hsgj@cornella

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 Sep 1986 11:08:38-PDT
From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Old SF TV shows

At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of
(ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme
youth in the '50s.

Even then, it may have been in re-runs - or perhaps derived from
episodes in a medium preceding widespread use of television itself.
In memory, at any rate, it comes across as OLD (i.e., somewhat
hokey), even for that time.

Involved an advanced, underground, hidden civilization -
awe-inspiring (for a five- or six-year-old, anyway) devices and
tin-can robots and the like.  I really can't remember much detail -
it may well have been a Saturday-morning kids' show.

Any other grey-beards out there with a better recollection?

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 30 September 1986 08:09:42 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson )
Subject: The Phoenix

>   This show came out about the same time as another short lived
>sci-fi series called The Phoenix. It starred Judson Scott as an

I too remember "The Phoenix". The pilot movie was rather strange,
but the series was pretty good. There was one episode where Bennu
racks up a high score on a "Phoenix" video game, and tells the awe-
struck kids that the secret to winning is to "become the machine".
Too bad the show was axed; I really wanted to know what his mission
was.

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 11:49:52 GMT
From: crew@decwrl.DEC.COM (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner"

>From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>2) What agency did he resign from?

Prior to doing The Prisoner, Patrick MacGoohan starred in the series
Secret Agent (which I don't believe has ever been shown in the US)
in which he plays a James-Bond-type character working for what I
assume was some branch of British Intelligence (be it MI-5/6 or
whatever...)

The Prisoner was originally envisioned as a sequel (i.e., following
the same character after he resigns...).  At some point they must
have decided there was no need to explicitly reference/rely on
anything from the earlier series.

Roger Crew
..!decwrl!crew
crew@sushi.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 18:01:49 GMT
From: axiom!gts@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy Schafer)
Subject: A Sane Man Reveals What "The Prisoner" Is All About. 
Subject: ***SPOILERS***

When I first saw the Prisoner series, it was on a PBS station which
meant that there was 8-10 minutes at the end of each episode (no
commercials) for some critique and analysis.  This was added in a
very intellegent and sometimes humorous manner by a man whose name
escapes me.

After the last show, this reviewer took about 40 minutes and
interviewed Patrick MacGoohan (who wrote or helped write all the
episodes).  Then a studio audience was allowed to ask him questions.
This is what he said:

* "Who is number 1?"  "You are number six" is a deliberate clue.

* The village is a metaphor for our society.

* Rover was intentionally amorphous and vague as it represents the
  fears that an individual faces in rejecting society which are
  often formless but ever-present.

* Number 1 wore a monkey mask because even he was forced to 'ape'
  all the other members of society.

* The only person that keeps you in the village, in our
  society--that is, makes you act in a socially acceptable manner at
  the expense of freedom--is yourself.  Hence Number 1 = Number 6.

* This last also explains why, after 'escaping,' the door to apt. #1
  in London opened and closed in a village-like manner
  (automatically and with sound effects); he is 'trapped' in
  society.  He drives his car away with that half-smile, half-sneer
  because in the opening scenes, this activity is a prelude to
  becoming trapped--there is no 'escape.'

Hope this clears it up.  Flames to Patrick MacGooham.

...{ decvax!linus || seismo!harvard }!axiom!gts

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1986 15:14:01 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Old SF TV (Spectreman)

Anyone remember a show called "Spectreman"? I don't think it's that
old; I recall seeing it for the first time a few years ago. It's
about a race of beings called the Overlords who send Spectreman to
Earth (specifically, Tokyo) to help stop the pollution that
threatens the planet.  In his human form was known as George, and
worked for some organization called the Pollution Squad (though they
spent more time fighting monsters than toxic waste). The villain was
an apeman (Dr.  something, forgot his name) from the Planet E. I
always thought of this show as an inferior ripoff of "Ultraman",
though the theme song was kinda neat:

   Spectreman!
   Spectreman!

   In a flash,
   Like a flame
   Faster
   Than a plane.
   A mystery
   With the name
   Of Spectreman.

   Powers
   From space
   He'll save
   The human race.
   Yet they'll never know the face
   Of Spectreman.

   We will never know the source
   Of his power and his force
   As he guides this planet's course.

   Spectreman!

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 11:45:55 cet
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: SF TV

Some other SF shows that spring to mind are "Fantastic Journey",
which provided an explanation as to the Bermuda Triangle: it's an
inter- dimensional warp hiding a large (almost continent-sized)
island which is covered with a jigsaw pattern of "Time Zones" -- a
different time is in existence in each of these zones.  I think it
would have been a success if they had had a wider variety of
writers, as the show very quickly became formula.  Good at the
outset, however.

Another is the British cartoon Dangermouse.  Although this might be
considered more in the line of 'action', I think that the amazing
car that always seems to repair itself { :-) } alone qualifies it.
I was rather pleasantly surprised to find out that Oxford has a club
called the "Dangermouse Appreciation Society".....

George

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 86 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #327
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 327

Today's Topics:

           Books - MacAvoy (4 msgs) & McCollum & Sagan &
                   Tepper & Yarbro & Author Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 23:57:52 GMT
From: genat!mckillic@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Mckillican)
Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>     TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON had as one of its two central
>characters Mayland Long.  He was an enigmatic Chinese gentleman (in
>the literal sense of the word) and made TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON a
>truly memorable book.  What appealed to me was MacAvoy's use of one
>of the lesser used (at that time anyway) mythologies--the Chinese
>mythology, with its dragons and spirits.

Interesting to see how differently different people can react to the
same book.  I also much enjoyed TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, but more
for the characters with whom she peopled the book than her knowledge
of Chinese mythology.  Mayland Long *is* a fascinating study, and I
couldn't care less if MacAvoy had invented the entire concept of
dragons.

>     THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in
>this case, the Celtic.  While I agree that Celtic mythology may
>have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am
>getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and
>pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science
>fiction/fantasy sections these days.  Don't get me wrong.  MacAvoy
>does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these
>days.

This "Irish-ness" has almost nothing to do with what I got out of
THE BOOK OF KELLS.  For me the book became one of my favorites when,
after about 140 pages of writing the story from the point of view of
the Irish characters (who considered the Vikings much as we do Orcs
:-)), she suddenly started telling the story from point of view of
the Vikings.  And forced us to consider the Vikings as human too.
It's MacAvoy's humanity that keeps me reading her, not her "Celtic
fantasies" (even if I am myself of related stock :-)).

>     That brings us back to TWISTING THE ROPE.  Martha Macnamara
>and Mayland Long are back, all right, but they're now the managers
>of a touring Celtic folk group.  Seriously.

Why not?  Are managers of Celtic folk groups any less fit topics for
fiction than dragons?

>It is, rather, a murder mystery that needn't have been fantasy at
>all.  It's a well-written murder mystery, true...

Perfectly true (and I'm glad you admit her skill).  But why must
this be a criticism?  It is not the function of fiction to adhere to
your classifi- cations, it is the function of your classfications to
describe fiction.  Why should it be forbidden to write a novel with
elements of more than one genre?  I found the mixture intriguing,
myself.

>I just hope that MacAvoy will return to the not-so-well-trodden
>ground she began to explore before.

For my part, I hope that MacAvoy continues to write with the same
humanity and skill as she has shown hitherto.  I'm sorry you didn't
like the book.  I wish you had gotten around to mentioning some of
the characters in TWISTING THE ROPE.  I wish more authors spent as
much time making their characters real and believable and
sympathetic as MacAvoy does (and anyone who considers those three
adjectives to be mutually exclusive I will refer to the nearest
Speaker for the Dead).

Don McKillican
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!mnetor!genat!mckillic
                              seismo!mnetor!genat!mckillic

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 22:55:58 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: R. A. MacAvoy's TWISTING THE ROPE

> mckillic@genat.UUCP (Don Mckillican)
>> ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper)
>>     TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON had as one of its two central
>>characters Mayland Long.  He was an enigmatic Chinese gentleman
>>(in the literal sense of the word) and made TEA WITH THE BLACK
>>DRAGON a truly memorable book.

TEA was an excellent book largely [I feel] because of the amount of
time we spend inside Long's head, and to a lesser extent inside
Martha's head.  TEA is a very internalized book, dealing with Long's
search for Zen enlightenment.

>>     THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in
>>this case, the Celtic.  While I agree that Celtic mythology may
>>have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am
>>getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and
>>pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science
>>fiction/fantasy sections these days.  Don't get me wrong.  MacAvoy
>>does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all
>>these days.

An earlier reply to e.c.Leeper questioned that reviewer's use of the
word 'necessity' above.  Ignoring that rhetorical blunder [as I
believe it to be], I agree with Evelyn: I am tired of Celtic
mythology.  I am particularly tired of writers who write hack
fiction, but manage to sell it solely because it's set in Wales [or
Scotland or whatever].  I don't think MacAvoy was doing this.
MacAvoy is no hack.  But I found nothing new in the Book of Kells --
her use of a Celtic setting in no way advanced the plot, the
characters, or the action.  And for me it carried connotations of
'hack' that I could not shake.

>It's MacAvoy's humanity that keeps me reading her, not her "Celtic
>fantasies"

Hear, hear!  This was the saving grace of KELLS.  I did NOT find it
anywhere in ROPE, which is why ROPE disappointed me so much.

>>     That brings us back to TWISTING THE ROPE.  Martha Macnamara
>>and Mayland Long are back, all right, but they're now the managers
>>of a touring Celtic folk group.  [...]  It is, rather, a murder
>>mystery that needn't have been fantasy at all.  It's a
>>well-written murder mystery, true...
>
>Perfectly true (and I'm glad you admit her skill).  But why must
>this be a criticism?  It is not the function of fiction to adhere
>to your classifi- cations, it is the function of your
>classfications to describe fiction.  Why should it be forbidden to
>write a novel with elements of more than one genre?

Not forbidden by any means.  I would not forbid the hacks from
writing bad pseudo-Celtic fanasy-trash.  However, I feel that if a
writer CAN mix genres well, s/he should.  If it cripples the book,
however, then it is a mistake.  In the case of ROPE, I feel MacAvoy
blew it.  It is, to me, unfulfilling as a mystery, and it is simply
NOT fantasy.  The fantasy elements are IGNORED completely -- they
have little that I can see with the plot to do.  [Parse that, I dare
you.]  And worst of all, there was NO character development.  None.
Especially among the major characters.  And I found two hundred
pages worth of Long having a miserable cold to be very unpleasant to
read.  I really disliked it.

>I wish more authors spent as much time making their characters real
>and believable and sympathetic as MacAvoy does

Yes.  And I wish MacAvoy spent more time doing something WITH them.
So: TEA gets four and a half out of five from me; KELLS gets two out
of five.  I will not rate ROPE, as I don't think I'm impartial
enough to rate it on its own merits.  If you see anything new on a
shelf by R. A. MacAvoy, odds are in your favor.  Buy it.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 05:31:01 GMT
From: utah-gr!donn@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy

Stephen Hutchison, in response to Evelyn Leeper:
>...  So, you've read several other books using Celtic mythology, SO
>WHY SHOULD MacAvoy have to not write one, just because OTHER people
>have already?

Because a novel with a different setting might be more original?
Just a suggestion.

>Feh.   With this attitude, why should Heinlein continue to
>write?  Or Ellison?  Or Asimov, Niven, Pournelle, etc.  ...

You got me.*

Speaking of originality, the cover art for TWISTING THE ROPE looks
strikingly similar to the cover art for the Oregon album OUT OF THE
WOODS.  I checked the signatures on the paintings and they aren't
the same, although I suppose the artist may have changed their name.

I like the album version better,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

*  Couldn't resist.  I'm just being facetious here -- certainly you
can argue about how original these authors' works are.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 01:36:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy

>Sure, a topic can be done to the saturation point, and knock-off
>cheap shoddy imitations on a topic can be done by the thousands,
>but that should not mean that it cannot be done.

  I suspect that a reviewer or critic reaches saturation point more
quickly and reacts more forcefully because he or she HAS to read the
book, even though thoroughly sick of the thing.  Why do you think
that good reviewers and critics eventually either give it up or
become incredibly cranky?

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 00:23:58 GMT
From: wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Any more McCollum LIFE PROBE sequels?

Does anyone know whether Michael McCollum is planning to write any
more novels in the series he started with LIFE PROBE and PROCYON'S
PROMISE?

Although I did enjoy his latest book, ANTARES DAWN, I was
disappointed because I had been hoping for a LIFE PROBE sequel,
which it of course is not.

I posted this same question a couple of months ago, and the most
anyone could say at the time was that something might be known after
the recent SF convention (Worldcon?).

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 08:48:07 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Sagan's Contact

                       Contact, by Carl Sagan

Sorry, this book disappointed me, so this is a rather negative
review.

**** Spoiler Warning ****

The title says it.  This book is about the first contact of us
peasants with Alien Intelligences.  Almost everything in the book
seems very, very familiar.

Dedicated scientists with radio telescopes are scanning the skies.
They scan and scan.  Grumbles from colleagues who want to use the
equipment for something else.  Money worries.  Will they shut us
down?  Then, suddenly, POW - the signals come in.  Prime numbers
from Vega, yet.

Political worries.  Should we tell the Russians?  Should we tell the
UN?  Unfortunately, the earth turns on its axis, so international
cooperation is necessary if we are to listen full time.  So the
scientists simply tell all their colleagues by electronic mail, and
the politicians realise pretty quickly this was the right thing to
do (!)

Then more message is found.  Pages of binary code, meaning something
very important.  It turns out

*** SPOILER WARNING #2 ****

the message is instructions for building "a machine" of some kind.
Not a female android, but a dodecahedron, with five chairs inside.
Should we build the machine?  Is it a trap?  Is it a weapon?  Who
gets to sit in it?

So the US and the USSR try to build the machine and sort of foul up.
The real engineering work is done by private industry under the
control of a crazed billionaire who isn't called Harriman.  It gets
built.  Five people get into it.  It travels through wormholes to
Vega.  Five explorers find themselves in constructed environment
talking to Super Intelligent Beings who look like old friends.  They
go back to earth.  Nobody believes them, but one feels our place in
the Galactic Community is somehow secure.

Now, maybe Carl Sagan hasn't read The Andromeda Experiment, The Man
Who Sold the Moon, 2001 - a Space Odyssey, and the other books from
which plot, action and events seem to have been blatantly ripped
off.  Maybe he thought this up quite independently.  But I still
think the novel pretty bad.  There is no real conflict, for one
thing.  I don't mean fighting, I mean different valid viewpoints
leading to plot tension, excitement &c.  Most of the book reads like
a school history novelisation, where everything happens in an
orderly manner and everyone is sweet reason.

Then, the aliens are a cop-out.  They have no discernable alienness.
Instead, we get the boring stuff about fundamentalists,
millenarians, atheistic godless scientists, all upset or elated over
the fact that We Are Not Alone.  The only attempt to analyse what
such contact would do to us and our society is again very familiar -
in the face of the unknown our local animosities die down and World
Peace creeps slowly in.

The book ends with a "cosmic disclosure" that I shan't reveal, but
by that time it was all very boring.  The story slipped down well
enough in an evening, so maybe for a free evening or a long
aeroplane journey, it's appropriate.  But at the end I felt nothing
had really happened.  Thank you for reading this far.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1986  23:54 EDT (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Jinian Star-Eye

   I actually found that one a bit of a disappointment.  It seemed
like Tepper had discovered that all her books didn't fit together as
well as she intended and was squeezing and straining to make them
all fit.  For example, we learn early on (in the Peter set) that the
ship came from Earth because of the Monster, Didir, who could read
mines.  It's been a while since I read the books, but it seems to me
that Didir confirms this later, and that her mind-reading ability
came long before Lom got involved.  Later on, in Jinian, all this
changes around, and it just felt to me that the justifications were
somewhat flimsy.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 16:05:05 GMT
From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach; Lord of the
From: OtherRealms)
Subject: Re: St. Germain (was Re: Search for Sadgeman)

>> I am looking for any novels, novellas, short stories etc. about a
>> vampire called Sadgeman.  The character was created by Chelsea
>> Quinn Yarbro I have heard the the books are out of print.  Is
>> this true?
>
> That's "St. Germain," *not* "Sadgeman."  The books are (in the
> order they were written):
>     1 Hotel Transylvania
>     2 The Palace
>     3 Blood Games
>     4 Path of the Eclipse
>     5 Tempting Fate
>     6 Saint-Germain Chronicles (collection of short stories)
>
> At least some of them are in print.

They are currently out of print except for the Science Fiction Book
Club versions, which are advertised every once in a while.

On the GOOD side, Beth Meacham at Tor books has bought all of the
books except for Tempting Fate (NAL still owns the option for that
book, but Tor has the option to buy it when the NAL contract
expires) and will be reprinting them starting next year.  Tor has
also contracted with Yarbro for a number of new books based on
Olivia, the first of which will be out in late 1987. Wonderful
books, I'm glad to see them back in print.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 86 00:15:01 GMT
From: GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject: Search for CC MacApp/Carroll M. Capps

'Way back in the forgotten past, there was a few books published by an
author with the (pseudo)name of C.C. MacApp and/or Carroll M. Capps.
You may have heard or read of them: "Worlds of the Wall" "Recall not
Earth" "Secret of the Sunless World" "Prisoners of the Sky"

If you know of any others or any info on the writer, please post or
send to:

Jeff Ganaposki
(814) 865-3405
GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Oct 86 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #328
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 86 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #328
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 328

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Zelazny (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 17:56:41 GMT
From: paul@mit-amt.MIT.EDU (Paul Dworkin)
Subject: Opinions on Amber (spoiler, long)

What follows is a bit of a ramble.  If you're not into Amber, skip
it.

It's been a while since I read the Amber series, but at the time, I
thought I had the history worked out:

My impression was that Dworkin was out wandering in grey land one
day (before Amber, there was no shadow to walk in), and came across
the unicorn who had the Jewel on her horn (HER origin is definitely
unknown).  Since this was before Amber, all was chaos, and anything
was possible: they had an affair and Oberon was produced.  Dworkin
was playing with the Jewel one day and found this pattern.  He found
that you could draw the thing on the ground and he did so.  This
made Amber pop up, Rebma, shadow, etc.  He and Oberon moved in.  I
got the feeling they weren't too well liked at the Courts even
before Amber existed.

Imagine it: everything is chaos, and then one day everybody looks
out their windows and there's this big blotch of law way out
thataway (projected by the pattern at it's center).  Exploration
proves the stuff to be thick or dangerous to chaos types.  Imagine
that you are a shape-shifter and you get into a place that requires
you to be only one thing and whose rules are immutable (maybe they
found it painful).  Anyway, a lot of the chaos types swear eternal
dedication to annihilating the stuff, and meanwhile Dworkin thumbs
his nose from inside saying 'nya, nya, you can't get me!'.

Shapeshifting: Dworkin and Oberon can shapeshift because they are
both born of chaos (chaos = mutable).  The unicorn is also probably
a shape-shifter (explains how she and Dworkin did it), but is very
shy and just doesn't change shape much.  The children of Oberon are
not shape shifters because they were born of shadow (i.e. their
mothers were from shadow or Amber).  They have law and order in
their veins and thus can not change.

Walking shadow: My impression was that anyone who had both the blood
of chaos and shadow can walk in shadow.  Dworkin can do it because
he drew the thing (Remember though, that he has to 'sketch his way
back into his own apartment' in the first book).  Perhaps he
learned how to draw trumps to allow himself to get around (one day,
he tried a portrait and found that it worked too).  Maybe Oberon can
walk shadow because his mother is connected with the pattern (or
maybe he was born after Amber was made?).  Shadow types can't shadow
walk because they are bound to the shadow they live in, and chaos
types can't do it because they have no understanding of how law
works.

Concerning the link between Oberon and the Unicorn: If mother-son
doesn't explains it, then you can probably add incest.  Hey, it's a
chaotic universe out there.  Morality didn't EXIST before the
pattern did.

Sorry for the length.

Paul Dworkin
paul@media-lab.mit.edu
Media Labs, E15-346 MIT, Boston MA  02137

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 10:15:03 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael)
Subject: Amber

Unfortunately, Blood of Amber ends on an even worse cliff-hanger
than Trumps of Doom, but it is nevertheless a good book. Actually,
ToD just ended in the middle of a sequence, more or less the best
location in the plot line at that point to stop, but BoA actually
does end on a cliff-hanger!

As far as the problem of the shadow-traveling Chaos Lords goes, the
major problem with consistency can be dispelling by supposing that,
unlike the Lords of Amber, masters of the Logrus cannot guide large
quantities of troops or establish semi-permenent shadow gates like
the masters of the Pattern; this is not contradicted in the last two
books (yet).

Thus Chaos needed the Black Road in order to send troops against
Amber. Or perhaps they were just so stricture-bound, living in their
semi-ritualistic way, that they needed an "invitation" to really
decide to attack. You will note that no Lord of Chaos ever actually
rode against Amber -- they just sent monsters, shadow-troops, etc.
They may have felt that the time was not yet ripe, or they may have
not been able to present a united front, which is at least hinted
at, I think. Also, for quite some time they wanted to keep their
hand hidden, acting through Brand, Bleys, and Fiona, until the
latter two decided they had had enough.

About the shape-shifting ability. It was supposed to die out in the
third generation -- remember Corwin's tongue-in-cheek remark "maybe
none of us ever tried" (I paraphrase); I presume each and every one
of them would have tried to learn to shape-change since they knew it
was an ability of their ancestors. Merlin can shape-change because
Dara is his mother, but it seems to come a lot less easily for him
than for Dara, who could seemingly shift shapes more easily than
clothes.

As for Oberon and bestiality, surely you meant Dworkin! But even if
some physical union (rather than magical) was required to produce
Oberon, obviously Dworkin could have shape-changed into an
appropriate form (Merlin's speculation in Blood of Amber). Since the
Unicorn does seem to be some sort of Avatar or Incarnation of Law, I
would suppose something rather less carnal actually occurred....
Where IS Dworkin anyhow? Where did he go after Oberon's funeral?

I am interested in hearing speculation as to what is really going on
in this second series. I have my own theory, but like Sherlock
Holmes, I prefer not to disclose it without further corroboration.
However, I do think that the reader has 90-95% of the information
needed from these two books to figure out what is happening, or at
least to confirm it if told. Who is the Mage of the Flowers? Where
is Corwin?  Why is a demon-spirit following Merlin around? (Note the
resemblance to the demon from the Changeling series) I won't tell if
you won't tell....

Laurence
Name:            Laurence Raphael Brothers
Organization:    Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey
Uucp-Address:    topaz!brothers
Internet-Address:brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
Bell-Address:    {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790}
Postal-Address:  BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 23:09:32 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: 'blood of amber' SPOILERS!

SYSMSH%ULKYVX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>I just picked up "BLOOD OF AMBER" also.  It doesn't really answer
>very many questions raised by "TRUMPS OF DOOM".  Is everybody sure
>this is just going to be a trilogy?  Anyone aware of what the next
>in the series will be?  I'm trying to figure out who the masked
>wizard is.  I assume that this is the key to the whole mess.  Could
>it be Brand?  Perhaps Corwin himself?  I'd be interested in hearing
>anyone elses thoughts on this via net mail...

I just finished my copy...

If anything, Blood of Amber raises more questions than it provides
answers.

No ideas on the wizard yet.  I have a hard time believing that
Corwin will be brought back as a bad guy, though.

I really loved the duel between Merlin and Mask.  Merlin's magic
seems logical and consistant; I.E., it all stems from mastery of a
primal force, and takes time to work.  I like the idea of Merlin
starting several spells and 'hanging' them on the Logrus with code
words for rapid completion.  And... his addition to Mask's flower
spell was great!

"What do you want?"

"I want your blood, your body and your soul!"

"How about my stamp collection?"

Does anyone *not* know the identity of the one-eyed lop-eared wolf?
I thought it unusual that Merlin didn't catch on.  Zelazny's
characters are usually smarter than that.  Oh, well.  Interesting
that he had mastered shape-shifting, but didn't use any Logrus magic
against Merlin, implying that he never did collect the nerve to walk
the Logrus.  Hmm.  Perhaps he didn't turn into a wolf, but was
turned into one...

The end was rather...strange...  I think Rinaldo was having fever
dreams and they activated his magic.  He appears to have the power
to do the same trump trick that allowed the wolf to escape...
Interesting that he was able to affect reality so close to the
pattern.  (In Amber itself.)  His blithering seemed to be
recollections of his defeat at the hands of what's-his-name, the
bastard son of Oberon.  Either that, or he got well and tried
attacking the castle again while Merlin was walking the pattern...
I know time at the land of the blue stone moves faster than
elsewhere, but I have a hard time believing it moves *that* fast.

I agree, there's too much to tie up in one more novel.  I would
expect another 7 book series.  (Oh, joy!!)

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 02:00:24 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber (Spoilers)

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>       First of all, Dworkin created the pattern, not Oberon.

Ok, sorry, it's been awhile since I read the first series.

>This is made clear in THE HAND OF OBERON, which also explains that
>Dworkin inscribed the pattern literally under the noses of the
>Chaos Lords and that all of Shadow was then aligned between Amber
>and Chaos - somewhat like filings about the poles of a magnet.

I suddenly realized there is a similarity between Dworkin and Suhey.
I wonder if they're related.

>A more interesting questions arises from Corwin's pattern: what
>happens to Chaos, Amber, and Shadow when a third pole is added?

I dearly hope we find out.  In Blood, someone, Fiona, I think,
points out that there was more disruption (shadow storms) after the
chaos war than in any other time.  She thinks it's Corwin's pattern,
where Merlin thinks it was a natural instability caused by the war.

>>[why can't the children of Oberon shape change?]
>This is perhaps explained in BLOOD OF AMBER, where Zelazny seats
>us in Merlin's mind as he performs a shape change.  Merlin uses the
>Logrus to do this.  So, perhaps only initiates of "Chaos' pattern"
>can shape change.

Except that a member of the Court attacks Merlin in wolf form, but
doesn't appear to have the other Logrus powers.  (Otherwise, why not
simply use a heart stopping spell on Merlin, or blast him into
Merlin Paste?)  Also, what's Rinaldo's source of power?  It appears
to come from a different source than Merlin's power, otherwise he'd
know how Merlin did things and wouldn't need to ask.  (Various parts
in the book, like when Merlin is lowering Rinaldo into the blue
cave.)  It would make the most sense if Rinaldo had tapped into
whatever Brand had learned to do to turn himself into a "living
trump".

>This implies that both Dworkin and Oberon have traversed the
>Logrus, which makes sense since Oberon commented to Dworkin once
>about the rigors of growing up at the Courts.

Makes sense.  Although he might have been referring to the constant
dueling and bickering we hear about in Blood of Amber.

>Also, since Brand was able to summon monsters and lighted
>cigarettes, presumably, he, too, mastered the Logrus.  Hence, the
>children of Amber could do so as well.

See above.  I don't think Brand mastered the Logrus.  There's
another source of power somewhere, I think.

>       Merlin's manipulation of the Logrus brings about another
>interesting line of investigation.  Mainly, if Merlin can use the
>Logrus (which is probably just another aspect of the primal
>pattern) the way he does, why can't he use the Pattern of Amber
>similarly?  It seems that Chaosians are much more sophisticated in
>the manipulation of their pattern than the Amberites are in theirs.

Hummm.  It *does* seem that the power of the Logrus has more
practical applications...  More raw power too, as seen by the Black
Road and Merlin's circle of chaos.  On the other hand, the first
series is told from Corwin's point of view.  Corwin had no magic
that I know of except the ability to shift shadow.  On the other
hand, Flora (?), Brand, and possibly Bleys had other powers.
Perhaps there *are* ways to use the Pattern to cast spells, and
Corwin simply didn't know how.

>Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a.
>Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it.

Well, I don't think the nobles of either Amber or the Courts were
much up on technical things.  I think Merlin was the first that
thought of melding technology with magic.

>       Dworkin told Corwin (Dworkin thought that Corwin was
>Oberon) in THE HAND OF OBERON that the Unicorn was his mother.
>Dworkin is, of course, insane.

Maybe.

Another question: Has anyone else noticed significance in names?
Bleys and Brand came from the redhaired side of the family
(bleys=blaze, get it?) and Random was truly a random element in the
struggle for the throne.  There are probably others.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 19:21:15 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Walking in Shadows

First of all, is Blood of Amber available in paperback, or just
hardcover? I only found out that the first book (in the second
series) existed this summer (I'm talking about Trumps of Doom if
that was too confusing). Also, did anyone see the cover of ToD in
hardback (not the paperback one with Merlin looking magical or
whatever). I heard that it looked too much like the cover of Brother
Assassin by Fred Saberhagen and was successfully sued for copyright
infringement. (At least I think it was ToD...the cover of Brother
Assassin is a guy in a cowl with half a human face and half a
machine-gear face...what this has to do with Amber I don't know).

As for walking in shadow, I always thought it was something you
gained by walking the pattern (plus you had to have "the blood of
Amber" in you, but if you didn't have that the pattern would kill
you).  I remember stories of young Amber princes, after walking the
pattern for the first time, being so excited that they walked off in
shadow and didn't reappear for 5 years or whatever. This is sort of
supported by the fact that Corwin, for all his lineage, cannot walk
in shadow when his memory is lost, but as soon as he walks the
pattern he can do it.

I also think that the Unicorn is the guardian of the pattern, and
appears whenever the pattern is in danger, to protect it. That's why
she guides Corwin and Ganelon to the primal pattern. Of course since
Ganelon is Oberon, maybe he just conjured up the unicorn so that
Corwin would follow it, since Corwin might not believe it if Ganelon
just said "Just follow me, I'll lead you to a primal pattern which
even you don't know exists".

I'm not sure about Dworkin. When Corwin goes back to his cell and
goes through Dworkin's drawing of his study (remember, that is when
he finds the Courts of Chaos trump), Dwokrin appears, and after some
chatting Dworkin tells him to go, and as he is leaving he sees
Dworkin's hand or something, and says something like "Whatever it
was, it wasn't human". So Dworkin and the Unicorn is not too
strange, since we have no guarantee that human is Dworkin's real
shape.

May we meet again in Amber (is that what they say?)!

Adam Barr

P.S. Of course what should I know, I was on my third reading before
I figured out where the name Rebma came from...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Oct 86 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #329
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 86 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #329
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 329

Today's Topics:

              Films - 2001: A Space Odyssey (2 msgs) &
                      Beastmaster & The Fly & 
                      Japanese Films (5 msgs) &
                      Sinbad (5 msgs) & Remakes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01-Oct-1986 0909
From: karger%ultra.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000

>> According to my foggy memory, Douglas Rains was a RAF Air Traffic
>> Control Officer picked because of his voice.  No prior acting
>> experience whatsoever, and I don't know if he has done anything
>> else.

Douglas Rain, the voice of HAL-9000 was a quite distinguished
Shakespearean actor, prior to his work in 2001.  He appeared
frequently at the Royal Canadian Shakespeare festival in Stratford,
Ontario.  I particularly recall him playing Prince Hal in Henry IV
(parts I and II) and King Henry in Henry V, a couple of years before
2001 came out.  As far as I know, he still plays Shakespearean
parts, but much older characters now, rather than Prince Hal.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 09:45:26 GMT
From: well!singer@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Singer)
Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000

I recently heard a tape of some of the first computer-synthesized
voice stuff, from 1963 or so, and was shocked to hear the machine
singing "Daisy".  The fellow who played the tape assured us that it
was, in fact, the source from which the singing in '2001' was
derived.  (Not that they used that tape or anything, but that they
did "Daisy" in honor of, or following from, that work.)  Anyone got
any comment?

(The guy who played the tape was Connie Willis's husband, Courtney.
He is a science teacher at, I think, the highschool level, and was
doing a demo of some fun things at a tiny con in Colorado Springs.)

Cheers

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 86 08:46:07 EDT
Subject: Beastmaster
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Wayne Barber)

>>  Did anyone watching the Marc Singer movie "The Beastmaster"
>>  either:
>>     1)  notice the similarity to a certain Andre Norton
>>         'juvenile' of the same name; or
>>     2)  notice any official credit to Ms. Norton for said
>>         resemblance?
>
> This needs to get added the list of commonly asked questions; it's
> been up at least four times this last year.  Yes, the title was
> the same.  No, the film wasn't based on the book.  No, Norton got
> no credit (I don't think you can copyright one-word titles
> anyway).

From what I understood of the hype that showed up in the magazines
when The Beastmaster first came out, the director *did* get the idea
for the movie from the Andre Norton book.  But after starting a
script, he decided he could make a better story.  I seem to recall
he wanted to make it more appealing to adults.  I don't recall the
name of the director/writer, but he was the same person who made
Phantasm, an above-average low-budget horror movie.

Wayne Barber

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 09:09:39 PDT (Tuesday)
From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: More on The Fly

>The special effects were necessary to the story, to my way of
>thinking anyway.  Consider the scene where Seth's ear falls off and
>Veronica hugs him (and everyone in the audience says "Eugh").  This
>scene, for me, captures the essence of the film quite nicely: even
>though he's changing into some horrible monster she still loves
>him.

I'll agree with this point, this scene was very effective.  That she
should be repulsed, but isn't, because of her love for him.  But
here he was just wearing some make-up, gruesome as it was, it was
necessary.  But come on, the scene where he's pulling off his finger
nails, having his morning donut, melting hands and feet off the guy
with the fly swatter (flies don't really do that, do they?), etc..

Also the science wasn't very good here, maybe they were trying to
follow the feel of the original in that here's a scientist creating
some really far out technology on his own.  They do try and explain
this, but why do the booths have to look like they were designed for
a Macy's display, they should have looked more practical and less
like matching flower vases.  Other points have been made before on
this DL, like flies have a high strength to body weight ratio only
because of their mass.  And if a fly was as large as a human they
wouldn't be as strong, walk on ceilings etc.  And to regurgitate all
that substance to disolve one donut is a little wasteful.  I realize
your supposed to believe the movie for what it's trying to portray,
and not say to yourself 'that can't happen' but it just seems like
there was more effects than storyline.

When I said;

>I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great films
>that can never possibly be as great as the original.  Why dont they
>remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on them.'

This was not said concerning 'The Fly', Gene said it about some
other remake, I just thought it applied here.

And I still wouldn't recommend this movie.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 04:54:00 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Japanese films (Godzilla)

>Umm.  These movies look quite a bit different from an american
>perspective.  There is a tendency to reedit the film, depending on
>the market.  I'm pretty sure that Mr.  Burr was NOT in the original
>(japanese version) of Godzilla (I forget what Godzilla is in
>Japanese.  Does anyone know why his name was changed for the
>American market?).

As previously discussed, Burr was not in GOJIRA.  As for why the
name changed, oriental words are often mutilated when transliterated
into English.  I still don't know how Beijing, Peking, and Peping
can all be transliterations of the same city name.  I guess in this
case, they also thought that Godzilla was easier to pronounce.

>Someone told me that in the Japanese version of King Kong vs
>Godzilla, Godzilla wins.

Apparently the belief was that American audiences would want an
American monster to win and Japanese audiences would want the
Japanese monster to win.  There wasn't much to shoot.  Just one
scene in which the victor of the battle surfaces and swims off.  It
is interesting to note that poor Willis O'Brien started the project
to be a stopmotion film in which his King Kong fought a monster
pieced together from large animals.  The story went through a number
of changes, then without O'Brien's permission the studio sold the
idea to Toho who took out the stop-motion and the need for a newly
created monster.  This was one of the two great disappointments of
the end of O'Brien's life. (The other was the fact that after Fox
hired him to work on the new LOST WORLD, he discovered they were
going to use lizards and had hired him only for the publicity it
would bring.)

>This isn't limited to monster films.  There is apparently a series
>of films about a blind swordsman (Zatoichi).  China also apparently
>has a series of films about a one-armed swordsman.  There is a film
>in which these two heroes meet.  In the Japanese version, the
>Japanese swordsman wins.  In the Chinese, the Chinese wins.

I can't believe that they would kill off Zato-ichi, though.  In
ZATO-ICHI MEETS SANJURO there is a final confrontation between the
two, but neither is killed.  (Another digression, I wonder if anyone
has ever compared the Japanese ronin Zato-ichi with the comic book
character Daredevil?)

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86  01:13:17 EDT
From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Peter E. Lee)
Subject: Godzilla

In issue #303, Dave Rickel asked what the Japanese name for Godzilla
is.  Every Japanese t-shirt, toy, video tape, album, movie poster,
and other piece of merchandising for the character has carried the
name 'Gojira', which is about as close to 'godzilla' as you can get
in that language...  Unless the original name was changed in Japan
at some point to coincide more closely with the American moniker, I
would guess that our name for the character is just an anglisized
version of the original name...

Peter Lee
Fuligin%UMASS.Bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 17:07:26 GMT
From: milano!wex@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Godzilla

I am told that the original Godzilla movie -- as shown in Japan --
was written as an allegory about what happened to Japan at the end
of WWII (unknown thing invades, destroys cities at random, military
are helpless...)

I am also told that it was changed substantially for American
release (not just cut).  Does anyone have any info about this?  Know
where I can get a copy of the original?

Alan Wexelblat
ARPA: WEX@MCC.ARPA or WEX@MCC.COM
UUCP: {seismo, harvard, gatech, pyramid}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!wex

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1986 21:14 CDT
From: a.d. jensen  <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Old monster movies

My personal favorite Godzilla 'thriller' was the one in which he did
battle with Monster Zero from 'planet X.'  Real choker -- ship of
American and Japanese scientists goes to the newly discovered orb
located on the back side of Jupiter (!) and which has been named
Planet X, probably for lack of anything better to call it.  At any
rate, upon arriving at 'the planet', they are greeted by the locals,
who also call their home 'planet X'.  Guess we all think alike in
this universe, huh?

Sure would like to meet that screen writer... :-)

a.d. jensen
University of North Dakota
ud040164%ndsu1.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 15:40:12 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Zato-ichi [was re: Japanese films (Godzilla)]

> From: mtgzz!leeper    (Mark Leeper)
> I can't believe that they would kill off Zato-ichi, though.  In
> ZATO-ICHI MEETS SANJURO there is a final confrontation between the
> two, but neither is killed.  (Another digression, I wonder if
> anyone has ever compared the Japanese ronin Zato-ichi with the
> comic book character Daredevil?)

Denny O'Neil, one-time writer of DAREDEVIL, did. There was a run of
issues in which DD went to Japan. In his identity of blind lawyer
Matt Murdock, he was set upon by some Japanese thugs. When he
started fighting back with his usual skill (he figured no one in
Japan knew who he was, so his secret identity was safe), one of the
thugs yelled, "Zato-ichi!"  and they all ran like hell.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 03:55:01 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie?

>I recall as a child seeing a Sinbad movie in which there is
>a magician who has placed his heart at the top of a well
>defended tower, and who therefore cannot be killed.  Part of
>the movie involves Sinbad attempting to mount the tower and
>kill the heart of the magician.

Ah yes!  And he had to fight a huge mailed fist to do it.  He had to
climb a huge rope of incredible size and length.  Also at a
different point he fights an invisible dragon by watching where the
footprints are.  CAPTAIN SINBAD was the film.  Not a great film, but
it had some really good scenes.  It did not have Ray Harryhausen
SPFX, but I am sure they made it a Sinbad film to trade off the
poplarity of 7TH VOYAGE OF SINBAD.  It starred Guy Williams, best
known for playing Zorro and the father in LOST IN SPACE.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 86 08:45:45 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie?

>I believe this was the first, and in my opinion, the best, Ray
>Harryhausen Sinbad Movie "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad".  This film
>dates from the late '50's.

No,it certainly was not "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad".In fact it
wasn't even a Sinbad film,but simply a fantasy film.Very good it was
as I recall.  But I never found out what it was called.  Sorry I
can't be of more positive help.

jml

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1986 1221-PDT (Friday)
From: berman@vaxa.isi.edu (Richard Berman)
Subject: Sinbad Movie

A short while ago someone posted a query about a Sinbad movie in
which the bad guy is a magician who keeps his heart in a box in a
very well guarded tower, so that he is unkillable.  Another person
said this was "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad".  This is incorrect.  I
have seen both movies (the first one once as a child, and "7th" a
number of times).  They are not the same.  I too would appreciate
the title because I have often wished to see this movie again.

In the unknown movie, the magician is quite fat, and at one point
Sinbad runs him through with a curved scimitar, but to no avail.  He
then thrusts several more into the magican who just laughs.  I
remember one great scene when Sinbad decides to go to the tower and
when we first see the tower it is from a great distance, beyond a
hot, smoking hellish land that seems rough with hills.  There are a
lot of magical dangers Sinbad overcomes along the way, and THIS is
the story, not the various occurences on the ship and islands of
"7th voyage".

Anybody?????

RB

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 16:24:55 GMT
From: ames!barry@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Sinbad Movie

> In the unknown movie, the magician is quite fat, and at one point
> sinbad runs him through with a curved scimitar, but to no avail.
> He then thrusts several more into the magican who just laughs.  I
> remember one great scene when Sinbad decides to go to the tower
> and when we first see the tower it is from a great distance,
> beyond a hot, smoking hellish land that seems rough with hills.
> There are a lot of magical dangers Sinbad overcomes along the way,
> and THIS is the story, not the various occurances on the ship and
> islands of "7th voyage".
>
> Anybody?????

CAPTAIN SINBAD (1962), starring Guy Williams, dir. Byron Haskin.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 06:35:12 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Name of a Sinbad movie?

CAPTAIN SINBAD (1963) MGM color 81 min. Directed by Byron Haskin who
also directed WAR OF THE WORLDS and ROBINSON CRUSOE ON MARS.  Spfx
by Lee Zavitz.  Starring Guy Williams.  Not connected with the
Harryhausen Sinbad films.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 15:14:28 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Gene Siskel and remakes

From:   deneb!u552434981ea      (Bryan McDonald)
> I thought Gene Siskel said it best, 'Why do they remake great
> films that can never possibly be as great as the original.  Why
> dont they remake lousy films with a good premise and improve on
> them.'

I remember hearing Siskel make that remark, and it was while
reviewing RETURN TO OZ. It was a ridiculous statement to make at the
time. First, and he admitted this, RETURN TO OZ was not a remake of
the MGM classic. Fine, so then why rant about remakes? Second, and
the problem with his (and Ebert's) review of RETURN TO OZ was that
while on one hand, they didn't like remakes of classics, they were
upset by the fact that RETURN TO OZ wasn't just like THE WIZARD OF
OZ. That's what you call a contradiction.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Oct 86 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #330
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 86 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #330
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 330

Today's Topics:

       Television - Anderson & Planet of the Apes (3 msgs) &
               Blake's 7 & Phantom Empire (3 msgs) &
               The Phoenix & Secret Agent Man &
               Anthology Shows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 20:24:08 GMT
From: dbmk1@dev.heuristix.co.uk (Derek Bergin)
Subject: Re: Old SF-TV Shows

jason@hpcnoe.UUCP (Jason Zions) writes:
>But they had some great designs and some terrible designs for their
>equipment.

More marionation trivia  ...

Actually the reason for the awkward designs of many of the vehicles
was the quality of cameras available.  Because this wasn't as high
as the Andersons and the model makers would have liked the models
had to be pretty big.  Fine for Thunderbirds where the same models
were used a lot, but for some of the later shows there were many
exploding models - which took about 6-8 weeks EACH to make if they
were the fine detailed ones.  The exploding ones were put out in
about 3-4 days.

Derek
(dbmk1@heur1.uucp)
{backbone}!mcvax!ukc!stc!heur1!dbmk1

------------------------------

Date: 1 October 1986 11:31:20 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Planet of the Apes TV series

A while ago I saw a series of "Planet of the Apes" movies that
seemed to be made-for-TV. They were much like the original "Apes"
movies, with a pair of astronauts crash-landing on the ape-dominated
future Earth.  One of the astronauts was named Burke (I forgot the
other's name). They had a disk containing their ship's telemetry,
and were searching for a computer to analyze the data and possibly
find a way back to their own time.  The last movie of the series
("Farewell to the Planet of the Apes") did not say whether the
astronauts ever found a way back or not. Does anyone else remember
this series (there were only five movies/episodes), and know what
became of the astronauts?

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 08:02:30 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.ARPA (The lost Bostonian)
Subject: Re: Planet of the Apes TV series

I remember the series, however I don't remember the name of the
other astronaut.  They never made it back.  In the last episode, a
human was attempting to learn how to fly, and a female chimpanzee
wanted to use his ideas to drop bombs on the gorilla camps and
troops.  Galen (the chimpanzee who befriended the astronauts) fell
in love with the female chimpanzee briefly, but became unhappy with
her when he found out what she was up to.  As punishment, Galen and
the inventor of the hang-gilder (with some help from the astronauts)
had to test-fly the glider off a cliff.  The glider worked, but they
flew out of range of the apes' guns.

The series was based on the west coast, in the LA area, I believe.
There was a Dr. Zaius in the series played by Maurice White (same as
in the movies).

gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 13:39:50 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: Planet of the Apes TV series

     The Astronauts were Pete Burke and Alan Virdon.  They teamed up
with the ape Galen.  The series lasted about 13 episodes.  10 of
them have been put together in pairs to make 5 movies.  The last
episode was with a hang glider made to escape the police.  This was
later incorperated into the movie Farwell to the Planet of the Apes.
They never did get home.
     I still have the novels of this series at home somewhere.  It
started out as a very popular series, but it flopped after a few
shows.  I think it was up against something that was a very high
rated show.  And like the Invisible Man, it was preempted so often,
it was a surprise when the show was actually on.
     Something else I forgot.  The gorilla police chief Urko was
played by James Gregory who was Dr Adams in the ST episode Dagger if
the Mind, and played inspector Lugar on Barney Miller.  I also think
that Mark Lenard (aka Sarek) also was on this show.
     It took place in the San Fransisco area. They visited Oakland,
and the BART system was seen in one of the first shows.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 17:01:03 GMT
From: cuuxb!wbp@caip.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch)
Subject: Blake's 7:  the character of Avon

jean@hrcca.UUCP (Jean Airey) writes:
>> From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
>>
>> 3) When Dayna first met Avon (in "Aftermath", I belive), she
>>    kissed him out of curiosity, to which Avon said something like
>>    "I hope your curiosity isn't easily satisfied." I then
>>    expected some sort of romance to develop between them.
>>    However, in the episodes after that (that I've seen so far),
>>    nothing happens. Did the writers just forget about it, or does
>>    something eventually happen between them?
>>
>Nothing happened on the show.  Fan writers have some theories :-).
>Paul Darrow commented on that same question "Avon doesn't like
>girls, he likes *women*.  He doesn't have time to teach her the
>terrors of the universe."  He does, however, feel responsible for
>her (something he's not always comfortable with!).

Begging to differ (Please!!!  Let me differ!), I'll take a different
viewpoint.  The character of Avon has spent a lot of time building
in his mind a very high and lofty tower, separating and elevating
him above EVERYONE else.  And he really doesn't care about anybody
but himself.

This is evidenced quite regularly in the show in his aloofness and
basic attitude of superiority.  (As an aside, he might be accused of
the disorder of egomania, but he is perhaps justified in his view of
his own superiority in terms of the mistakes that he has seen his
companions et al make and which he hasn't made.  Can you really be
considered an egomaniac when it is justified?  Avon would have made
a great "puppeteer" - perhaps he was...)

Now can you see this character opening himself up to another person,
as he would be forced to do in any raletionship?  (At least as I
have painted him.)  I really can't.  Avon is a loner.  Let's say
'Avon doesn't care for girls, he really doesn't care for
anyone/anything except himself.'

The one time that totally disagrees with this is the episode
featuring Horizon, whose title I forget.  In it Avon SHOULD have
said Goodbye.  (Without needing the rationalization of the three
pursuit ships closing in.)  Or actually, he wouldn't have even have
said that, it would have simply been 'Zen, plot and execute an
evasion course.'  And the series would have been over.

Which is why I suppose that the script writer didn't do it...

Walt Pesch
ihnp4!cuuxb!wbp

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 12:38:49 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: Old SF TV shows

From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
>At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of
>(ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme
>youth in the '50s.  Any other grey-beards out there with a better
>recollection?

I don't remember the original, but a revival was attempted in 1979
under the name "The Secret Empire".  It was one of four shows that
each ran once a month under the group title "Cliff Hangers".

The science fiction/western told the story of Marshal Jim Donner's
adventures in the futuristic underground city of Chimera, ruled by
the evil Emperor Thorval (Mark Lenard).

The western scenes were in B&W, the underground stuff in color.

Cliff Hangers died before the serial reached its end.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Oct 86 20:40 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: re: Phantom Empire

I was rather shocked to see the message about a TV show called
PHANTOM EMPIRE.  I am not at all familiar with the show, but I do
know that in the 1940's, a group called the Phantom Empire,
forerunners or siderunners or comrades or something of the Ku Klux
Klan, were a visible force for bigotry and racism.  In fact, the
Phantom Empire resorted to violence when black workers began moving
to Detroit for the war effort.  I am shocked that people would have
forgotten by the 1950's of such a terrible thing.

Greg Morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.wisc.edu)

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  4 Oct 1986 11:35:06-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Old SF TV shows (THE PHANTOM EMPIRE)

> From: todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM   (Bill Todd)
> At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of
> (ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme
> youth in the '50s.
>
> Even then, it may have been in re-runs - or perhaps derived from
> episodes in a medium preceding widespread use of television
> itself.  In memory, at any rate, it comes across as OLD (i.e.,
> somewhat hokey), even for that time.

You're correct about the source. THE PHANTOM EMPIRE (aka GENE AUTRY
AND THE PHANTOM EMPIRE) was a 12-part movie serial from 1935. It was
never a tv show per se.

On the other hand, there was a show from 1979 called CLIFFHANGERS!,
an anthology show whose gimmick was to show 20-minute episodes of
three separate serials each week. One that I can remember was "The
Secret Empire", a rip-off of THE PHANTOM EMPIRE (creator Kenneth
Johnson, also responsible for THE BIONIC WOMAN, THE INCREDIBLE HULK,
and V, claimed that he never knew of the original serial; and I'm
Santa Claus). Another fantasy serial on the show was "The Curse of
Dracula", starring Michael Nouri, star of the new tv show DOWNTOWN.

"Take that surface-man Autry to the Lightning Room!"

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 14:20:05 GMT
From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson)
Subject: Re: The Phoenix

>>I too remember "The Phoenix". The pilot movie was rather
>>strange...  Too bad the show was axed; I really wanted to know
>>what his mission was.
>
>Wasn't his mission to find another (female) being from his planet
>trapped in a pyramid somewhere?

     As I recall, he was looking for a woman.  She had been left
with another Indian civilization, one that built mounds, I assume.
He had a flat rock with a pattern on it that was a key to her
location and he travelled around the country to various mound sites.
I think in the first episode after the pilot, he actually found the
placed where she was supposed to be buried, opened it up, and
discovered she'd been moved.  It was not clear whether he was
mistaken in the first place or she had in fact been moved by some
dark force (took the shape of a goat once, I think) that was
opposing him.  Lots and lots of holes in the concept of the entire
series, but neat stuff anyway.

     Judson Scott, of course, played Khan's son in STII, but he
wasn't listed in the credits because of an agent/contract mix-up.  A
lot of the interplay between Khan and his son got cut out (one scene
they discussed literature).  It would have been interesting to see
Khan the parent in action - add some depth (or would that be
breadth) to his character.

Karen Christenson
...!dartvax!chelsea

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 22:10:58 GMT
From: pur-phy!piner@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Piner)
Subject: Re: Questioning "The Prisoner"

crew@decwrl.UUCP (Roger Crew) writes:
>Prior to doing The Prisoner, Patrick MacGoohan starred in the
>series Secret Agent (which I don't believe has ever been shown in
>the US) in which he plays a James-Bond-type character working for
>what I assume was some branch of British Intelligence (be it MI-5/6
>or whatever...)

The "Secret Agent" was shown in the US, at least in Indiana. A great
show too. The theme song, "Secret Agent Man" was a hit on the radio.
"They've given you a number and taken away your name."  Ok, trivia
fans, who did the song?

Richard Piner
piner@galileo.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 03:50:30 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Review: TV Anthologies

                     1986 TV Season Anthologies
                    Comments by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Well, I've watched the three shows that are still running and
have started their seasons: AMAZING STORIES, TALES FROM THE
DARKSIDE, and TWILIGHT ZONE.  ALFRED HITCHCOCK PRESENTS is supposed
to return to the USA Network but I haven't been able to locate it
yet.  HITCHHIKER--HBO's entry in the anthology sweepstakes--hasn't
started its new season yet.

     AMAZING STORIES started off this season much better than they
did last year's, but then given the amazingly *bad* episode they
started with last year, that wouldn't be difficult.  This year's
premiere, "The Wedding Ring," was a touching tale of two
down-and-outers in Atlantic City who get involved with a wedding
ring stolen from a murderess.  Danny DeVito and Rhea Pearlman both
do excellent jobs.  My only objection is to the "parental warning"
at the beginning that "some material may not be suitable for
children."  This seems to be there only to bring in more viewers
hoping for the titillating.  They will be disappointed.  Rate it a
+2 on the -4 to +4 scale.

     TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE presented "The Circus," a fairly
predictable story about a weird circus.  You know the kind--Ray
Bradbury, Charles Finney, and Tom Reamy are the best-known of the
authors who have taken a swing at this.  This teleplay (by George A.
Romero) was based on a story by Sydney J. Bounds.  Though
predictable, it was well-acted, especially by William Hickey, the
actor who played the "godfather" in PRIZZI'S HONOR.  Rate it a +1 on
the -4 to +4 scale.  (If anyone cares, they've also changed the logo
style.)

     TWILIGHT ZONE had two episodes this time: "Once and Future
King" and "A Saucer of Loneliness."  "Once and Future King," about
an Elvis Presley impersonator who goes back in time and meets "The
King" was incredibly predictable and, in addition, suffered from the
fact that neither the impersonator nor the actor playing Presley
looked at all like Elvis Presley.  The ending was obvious almost
from the beginning.  George R. R. Martin did what he could in his
teleplay from the story (by an author whose name escapes me), but
there wasn't enough new to work with.  This gets a -1 on the -4 to
+4 scale.

     "A Saucer of Loneliness" was based on the Theodore Sturgeon
story of the same name and starred Shelley Duvall.  It was
acceptable, I suppose, but lacked whatever the special touch was
that made the story so memorable.  Although some short stories have
translated well to TWILIGHT ZONE episodes, others haven't.  My
feeling is that comedy translates to the small screen where emotion
doesn't.  Maybe someone could make Sturgeon's emotion transfer well,
but David Gerrold, who wrote this teleplay, is not that person.
That's not to say Gerrold is a bad scriptwriter, but this sort of
script is not his forte'.  This gets a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.
(And the credits still go by too fast for anyone not a graduate of
the Evelyn Woods school.)

     So there you have it.  Rumor has it that Spielberg is asking
for more scripts for AMAZING STORIES than he can film, so that he
can throw out the bad ones.  He may even manage to get the series
renewed (he's guaranteed by contract to last the season).  TWILIGHT
ZONE, according to reports at ConFederation, will be further
eviscerated (or, some might say, emasculated) by the network and may
not last the season.  TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE will continue to turn
out stylish shows on its miniscule budget (when you have no money,
"style" is often the best way to go).  And I'll keep watching.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Oct 86 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #331
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 86 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #331
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 331

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Zelazny (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 20:10:30 GMT
From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

  About the shapeshifting - I don't think Corwin ever really tried,
but just took for granted that he couldn't do it. The same probably
applies to the others. Dara certainly could, though she had more
Chaos than Amber in her heritage so that might not mean much.

  Here is the way I understood the origins of Amber, Shadow and
Oberon:

  In the beginning, (as much as such things can be said to have a
beginning), there was Chaos, and it was without form, but it was NOT
void. Rather, it had many things mixed in mind-breaking confusion.
Many creatures dwelt in this Chaos, for all things were possible
there, and some were greater than others, and could bend the stuff
of Chaos to their wills, and the greatest of these were the Lords of
Chaos. One of these Lords, not the greatest nor yet the least of
them, was Dworkin the renegade. In some manner he encountered the
Unicorn and the Jewel of Judgement (for although the orderly
progression of Time from future to past was unknown there, still
there was a point at which he knew nothing of Unicorn or Jewel, and
another point at which he knew much of them) and was fascinated by
the perfect Order of the Pattern which he perceived within the
Jewel. In some wise he learned the Jewel's power, and began to use
it to impose the Pattern within it on the stuff of Chaos. Instantly
the other Lords noted his actions, and discerning what he was about,
tried to stop him.  The Jewel, or the emerging Pattern, balked them,
so that they could not reach Dworkin to stop him by force, and their
attempts to distract him from his concentration failed also. In due
course, Dworkin completed his Pattern, impressing its Form on both
the stuff of Chaos and his own being, while simultaneously
impressing his being on the Pattern he made. This Pattern then
distanced itself from Chaos, but drew out a long streamer of
completely new substance, neither Pattern nor Chaos, but partaking
of both. Near the Pattern, Order dominated these Shadows while at
the other end they resembled Chaos.

  Then Dworkin fathered Oberon, and the Unicorn was his mother, and
Oberon became King of Amber, which was the First Shadow of Dworkin's
Pattern. Oberon then took a wife from out of Shadow, and later a few
more, and they had eleven sons who were named Osric, Finndo, Brand,
Benedict, Eric, Caine, Corwin, Julian, Bleys, Gerard, and Random;
and four daughters named Llewellyn, Fiona, Florimel, and Dierdre.
All of them, being of Dworkin's blood, shared an affinity for his
Pattern, and could walk it without being destroyed. This act
reinforced their ability to manipulate the Shadows that sprang from
the Pattern, bringing it under conscious control.

  What this all means is that only Dworkin's descendants can safely
walk his Pattern, or its echoes in Amber, Rebma and Tir-na Nog'th,
and gain power over its shadows. At the end of Courts of Chaos, only
Corwin would have been able to walk the Shadows, if any, cast by his
Pattern. Merlin could certainly have been initiated to Corwin's
Pattern; though I'm not sure Corwin's brothers and sisters would
survive the experience if they tried it. The link holds through at
least eight generations of lineal descent (Dara was Benedict's
great-great- granddaughter) but it's not clear if it holds for other
relationships. Another thing - Corwin walked ALL of Dworkin's
Patterns, attuned himself to the Jewel TWICE, used it to inscribe
his own Pattern - why don't we see him gaining greater power over
Shadow? Maybe he does, but isn't aware of it?

  Just nits - Zelazny is without a doubt one of the greatest living
writers.  I wish he'd finish what he starts though. What comes after
Madwand?

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
{sdcsvax!sdcc3|kontron|crash|gould9}!loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1986  16:21 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Amber

   Whoa there.  You've got a few things backward.  Oberon did not
inscribe the first Pattern, Dworkin did.  As I recall, Dworkin is a
rebel who flees the Courts of Chaos to find a "small island in the
midst of Chaos."  There he finds the Jewel of Judgement hanging from
the neck of the Unicorn.  Using the Jewel, he inscribes the Pattern,
thus creating Amber.  Oberon is Dworkin's son by the Unicorn.  This
is in either Hand or Sign when Corwin is speaking to Dworkin, who
thinks that he is really Oberon shapeshifted, and Dworkin refers to
"the Unicorn, thy mother..."
   Remember, Shadow did not exist until the Pattern did.
   Shapeshifting: Somewhere toward the end, Corwin asks someone, I
think Oberon, but I'm not sure, why it is that he can't shapeshift.
The answer, as I recall, was, "Have you ever tried?"

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 13:39:00 EDT
From: "CHRISTOPHER E. SHULL" <shull@wharton-10.ARPA>
Subject: History of the Universe up to _Blood of Amber_  (Zelanzy)

fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) asks some questions
about the history of the Chaos/Amber universe preceding _Blood of
Amber_.  In doing so, several points of fact were also mixed up.

> ***SPOILERS FOLLOW of the first five Amber books and a minor
> spoiler of Trumps of Doom***
>
> We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King
> Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is
> Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather.  I think it is established
> that Chaos lords have very limited abilities to travel in shadow,
> and must either use constructs like the Black Road, or follow an
> Amberite through shadow.  (Which apparently anyone can do.)
> However, the Chaos lords have other powers, like shape shifting
> and conjuring.

The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the
Universe under the effect of the Pattern.  As they get closer and
closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift
Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by
themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes
employed.

As you suggest below, we readers are left to figure somethings out
by ourselves.  I suggest that one of them is that the Lords of Chaos
can move through these changing shadows very easily, but find it
very difficult or impossible to move through the Shadows of Amber.
This is because their equivalent to Amber's Pattern is a constantly
changing thing.

> We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by
> Oberon by enscribing the Pattern.

Not Oberon, but Dworkin created the Pattern from his own blood.  If
you recall, the "Black Road" damage to the Pattern was inflicted
using the blood of Martin, who was a third generation descendant of
Dworkin (out of Random, out of Oberon, out of Dworkin).  According
to Dworkin, only the blood of the first three generations would have
this affect.  He also mentioned that the "Black Road" damage had
driven him insane, because it was a part of him, and he a part of it
(or some such words).

> Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts are clear across the other
> side of existence from Amber, and represents the farthest an
> Amberite can travel in shadow.  If the Chaos lords have only
> limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon originally travel away
> from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern?  In all the Amber books,
> it's made clear that one can only travel freely in shadow by
> walking the Pattern.  This brings up a chicken-and-egg question.

Shadows cannot exist by themselves -- they need to be cast by
something real.  Originally the only real thing was Chaos.  I got
the feeling that there was some strife in Chaos, during or after
which the "rebel" Dworkin created the Pattern, while the battle
swarmed around him.

> Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
> apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
> don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
> walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

I seem to recall that Dworkin and/or Oberon told Corwin that he too
could do it, but that he had just never really tried hard enough.

> Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
> Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?

Oberon is the son of Dworkin and the Unicorn.  Yup, sounds like
beastiality to me, but then again, Dworkin is a shape changer.

Hope this was fun and useful.  I really loved the Amber series plus
the _Trumps of Doom_.  I look forward to dredging up the _Blood of
Amber_, but my bookstore doesn't have it yet.

Christopher E. Shull
Shull@Wharton-10.ARPA
Decision Sciences Department
The Wharton School
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA  19104-6366
215/898-5930

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1986 12:34:01-EDT
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re:  Amber

*** SPOILER WARNING ***

fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon
>by enscribing the Pattern.  Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts
>are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and
>represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow.  If the
>Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon
>originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern?  In
>all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel
>freely question.

I never really thought about this problem, but didn't Oberon
inscribe the initial Pattern in the Courts of Chaos?  (I may be
fuzzy on that detail.)  If he did, I would think he could use that
pattern to travel in Shadow.

>Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
>apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
>don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
>walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

Maybe shape-shifting isn't inherited.  Perhaps it's merely a
function of being born in Chaos.  The children of Oberon were born
in Amber.  They inherited the ability to walk the Pattern, since
Oberon created the Pattern and it was attuned to him.  Interesting
side note: created it.  He passes this attunement to his offspring.
(Zelazny states that anyone with royal Amber blood can walk the
Pattern.)  However, does the ability weaken as the bloodline gets
further and further from Oberon?  Would Random's son, for example,
have a more difficult time walking the Pattern than Random did?

>Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
>Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?

Once again, the exact detail escapes me, but I remember a passage
where Corwin (and Random as well, I think) discover that they are
descended from the Unicorn.  I think Oberon was the offspring of
Dworkin and the Unicorn.  As Ron Christian pointed out, Zelazny the
Unicorn may also be a shape-shifter who just prefers the shape of
the "noble unicorn".

Brian M. Clapper
(clapper@NADC.ARPA)
Naval Air Development Center
Warminster, PA

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1986  15:31 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Amber

   Actually, according to BoA, an initiate of the Pattern has the
same potential for power as an initiate of the Logrus (with the
exception of throwing raw chaos around, although I suspect, from
incidents in the first set, that the Pattern can counter that).
However, for the most part Oberon's children were never interested
in spending the necessary amount of time studying to learn such
powers, with the exception of Brand, Fiona, and Bleys.  After all,
Luke is a sorceror and does not use the Logrus (at least so far as
Merlin could tell).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Oct 86 10:39:49 EDT
Subject: Amber (Zelazney)
From: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Michael Johnson)

Ronald O. Christian writes: *** mild spoiler of Amber novels ***
>We find out somewhere in, I think The Hand of Oberon that King
>Oberon is from the Courts of Chaos, and Dworkin the mad artist is
>Oberon's father, Corwin's grandfather.  I think it is established
>that Chaos lords have very limited abilities to travel in shadow,
>and must either use constructs like the Black Road, or follow an
>Amberite through shadow.  (Which apparently anyone can do.)
>However, the Chaos lords have other powers, like shape shifting and
>conjuring.

Oberon is not from Chaos directly. He has never resided in the
Courts of Chaos and was born in Amber, after its creation.

None of the Chaos creatures that Corwin fought on the black road
were Lords of Chaos (note that Dara, however, was). Only the Lords
of Chaos walk the Logrus, thereby giving themselves the ability to
manipulate shadows.

>We find out in Sign of the Unicorn that Amber was created by Oberon
>by enscribing the Pattern.  Elsewhere it is stated that the Courts
>are clear across the other side of existence from Amber, and
>represents the farthest an Amberite can travel in shadow.  If the
>Chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did Oberon
>originally travel away from the Courts to enscribe the Pattern?  In
>all the Amber books, it's made clear that one can only travel
>freely in shadow by walking the Pattern.  This brings up a
>chicken-and-egg question.

The Pattern was inscribed by Dworkin, not Oberon. Before the Pattern
was created, there was nothing except for Chaos. So Dworkin went off
a long way from the "center" of Chaos (perhaps following the
Unicorn) and there inscribed the pattern. This brought into being a
universe with two polarities, one of Order and one of Chaos, and
also created the shadows of Amber. As I mentioned above, walking the
Logrus also gives the ability to manipulate Shadow.

>Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
>apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why then
>don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
>walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

When Oberon married, he of necessity chose wives from Shadows that
lay very close to Amber. Therefore, his wifes were NOT of Chaos,
they were creatures of Order (i.e. Amber). Since shape-shifting is a
Chaotic talent, it would make sense that those who were partially
bred from Order would not have it. Also, the genes of Oberon's
wives, while good imitations, were not REAL, they were only
imperfect Shadows of the genes of the Chaotic individuals who
actually created and lived in the real Amber.

>Thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
>Unicorn.  Anyone want to speculate?  Beastiality?

The Unicorn is Oberon's mother. The bestiality took place between
Dworkin and the Unicorn, though there is some question as to whether
you could really call this bestiality, since the Unicorn is a
sentient Chaos creature and therefore perfectly capable of
shape-shifting in her own right. The Unicorn is obviously a powerful
magical creature. Perhaps the physical form of a Unicorn gives her
greater magical focus or something.

If I remember correctly, Dworkin found the Jewel (I forget its
entire name) hanging around the neck of the Unicorn. What he found
inside the Jewel inspired him to create the Pattern of Amber from
his own blood, thereby bringing into being a macroscopic reflection
of the Order that was inherent in the Jewel. The Jewel also gives
the wearer much power over the Universe of the Pattern. Now THERE is
a chicken or the egg question for you, with a twist. Since the
Pattern (in 3 or more dimensions) defines the Universe and the
Pattern is inside the Jewel, is the Universe inside the Jewel, or is
the Jewel inside the Universe, or what?

michael johnson
michael@maine.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Oct 86 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #332
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 86 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #332
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 332

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Gravity & Southern Con &
                      The Origin of Fuzzy Pink (3 msgs) &
                      The Origin of Ansible (2 msgs) &
                      Literary Crossreference &
                      Printing History & Typos (2 msgs) &
                      FTL Travel & Impossibilities (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 86 13:40:19 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Gravity

I've been plagued (intermittently) for a long time by a couple of
questions with which my Physics I course didn't equip me to deal.

1.  In "The Planet Fragment" (One of the Jones stories about a bunch
of cyborgs 'Zorones' flitting around the galaxy millions of years
from now) we encounter an oblong planet.  According to Jones, the
gravity is much higher at the 'top' (the pole farthest from the
center) than at the 'side' (which is closer to the center but where
most of the gravitational attraction is lateral, and cancelled out
by symmetry).  Is he right?  (He also has the gravity change
suddenly when you round the corner, but we'll ignore that.)

2.  There is a strong presumption that Hal Clement's calculations in
Mission of Gravity are correct, but I can't duplicate them.
Calculation of the polar gravity gives nowhere near 700G (that's a
relatively straightforeward integration) unless you assume
ridiculous densities, and the centrifugal force at the equator is
really not that great--only a few G's.

Help, anyone?

Dani Zweig

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 22:26:38 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: DeepSouthCon

David Hartwell sold his shorts at DeepSouthCon to raise money for
the ill and homeless George Alec Effinger, who recently lost his
apartment to fire and who has enormous hospital bills.  In an
auction by Rusty Hevelin, Hartwell sold his collection of outrageous
ties (I bought one!)  , his sox (!), and his (external) shorts.  The
shorts went for $115.00 in a tight bidding war, and the luck (?)
female who won also won the right to strip the editor of his
precious clothing.

Somtow Suchkaritkul, Toastmaster, was on a panel and I asked him the
leading question as to why he wasn't married as schedule, at
Confederation.  His reply would have filled an adventure book--his
parents exiled from Thailand, the existence of other families of his
father's, and an extraordinary bit about outreageous resume'
writing.  It's too much fun to miss, so ask him, next con.

And don't forget to ask about the Thai carnivorous ducks, and what
the English words, "Jewish pumpkin", mean (or sound like) in Thai.
(Hint: Netnews etiquette probably forbids those Thai words.)

Andy Offutt, Joel Rosenberg, Ken Moore, Maureen, Jody, Murray
Porath, and the rest of us had a good time at a relatively
relaxa-con, with about only 625 attendees.

For Midwesterners reading this (Hi, Anna & Tim!), we'll be at
CONTACT in Evansville in mid-October, with David R. Palmer as GOH
and Stan Schmidt as Editor GOH, and Tim Zahn as Inevitable Guest.

arlan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 16:38:02 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Fuzzy Pink

   is the name given to Marilyn Wisowaty by her roommate at MIT,
because of her predilection for pink angora sweaters. (The MITSFS
legend has it that X referred to MW as "my fuzzy pink roommate",
which got truncated after everybody else at the MITSFS started
calling her "fuzzy pink roommate" (this was rather before coed
dormitories)). MW married Larry Niven some years later (another part
of the legend says that she had no idea that he was filthy rich (one
of Niven's ancestors is the Doheny who was involved in the Teapot
Dome oil scandal (and after whom a street in LA is named?))) but is
still generally known as Fuzzy Pink.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 15:41:45 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com>
Subject: Fuzzy Pink

This is the story as told by Leslie Turek, long-time Boston area fan
and chair of Noreascon II.
   Way back in the mists of recorded time, i.e. some time in the
1960s, Leslie Turek and Marilyn Wisowaty were college roommates.
They were also members of MITSFS.  Marilyn tended to wear lots of
fuzzy pink sweaters (or perhaps just one fuzzy pink sweater a lot of
the time).  Leslie took to referring to her roommate as "Fuzzy Pink
Roommate", and this usage started to catch on.  Not being terribly
pleased by having male MIT students calling her "roommate", Marilyn
managed to convince people to shorten the appellation to "Fuzzy
Pink", and the name stuck.
   Some years later, around 1970, give or take a few years, Marilyn
Wisowaty married Larry Niven, changed her name to Marilyn Niven, and
moved to Los Angeles (not necessarily in that order), and many
people started referring to her as "Fuzzy Pink Niven".  I was told
recently (at Confederation) by a fan from L.A.  that she responds
quite cheerfully to the name "Marilyn", but that few people call her
that.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 09:31:19 GMT
From: well!singer@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Singer)
Subject: Re: Fuzzy Pink

Chip Hitchcock (Hi, Chip!) writes that the person under discussion
is still known as Fuzzy Pink.  I would like to take partial
exception to that.  I have not heard anyone address her as anything
except "Fuzzy" for quite some time.  I don't know where the "Pink"
went, but it seems to be mostly gone.

Cheers

Jon

PS - I hope this is not hopelessly out of date.  I'm taking them in
order.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 13:36 EDT
From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Subject: Re: origin of the term "ansible"

"Ansible" COULD be from Latin elements, meaning something like
"container for a handle"...  but I doubt it, unless such a word (or
a Latin or Latin-derived form) with that literal meaning got other
associations which could reasonably be extended to LeGuin's
"invention".

My best guess is that, unlike a light-speed message, an ansible
message is "answerable" in real time: ask a question, get an answer
(rather than) ask a question, your grandchildren get the answer.
"Ansible" comes from "answerable".  Plausible?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 13:41 EDT
From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Subject: Re: origin of the term "ansible"

Note that LeGuin has used the uncommon word "answerable" itself.  In
the Earthsea trilogy, I believe in _A Wizard of Earthsea_, there is
a mention of (from memory) "those Answerable Questions that can only
be asked by the Patterner in the Immanent Grove."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 86 14:47:31 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: literary xref
Cc: hoptoad!farren

>>refrain "Are we not men?" during the recitation of the Law by the
>>beast-men. The manner of its recitation made it obvious that this
>>was the source for the DEVO anthem, Jocko Homo.
>
>Jeez, what are they teaching in English classes these days?  Check
>out "The Merchant of Venice", by one William Shakespeare.  I think
>you'll find a usage of "Are we not men?" that considerably predates
>that of the honorable Mssrs.  Laughton and Lugosi.

Well, yes---or even H. G. Wells, which is more to the point.
However...  I don't know (-"Bless me, what \are/ they teaching them
in schools these days!"- the elderly professor (Digory?) in THE
LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE), but having studied MoV when I
was in school and having recently played the part of Shylock I think
this derivation is ridiculous. In his famous speech, Shylock is
arguing that Jews are human and should be treated as such (and are
entitled to misbehave as such: "...if you wrong us, shall we not
revenge?"); in their chant the beast-men are reminding themselves of
the constraints on their own behavior that come from being men
instead of animals.  It's even more ridiculous when you consider
Devo's probable influences and the theme of their work.

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  2 Oct 86 16:26:34 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Printing History Query

Does anyone know whether publishers are under any legal obligation
to print accurate printing histories?  Or are they just responding
to accepted standards?

In the past couple of years I've seen more and more reprints being
offered as new books.  TOR and Baen books are the conspicuous
transgressors.  This sort of thing comes in three flavors:

a) Using the misnomer "a substantially different version" instead of
the more accurate "an essentially identical version".  (An odd
variation of this was Saberhagen's "The Golden People", which was
reissued last year.  Although it was about half again as long as the
original version, I only spotted two 'substantive' differences: the
admiral was female instead of male and a comic book became an
electronic comic book.)

b)  Omitting a significant portion of the printing history.

c) Changing the title and implicitly offering the book as an
original.

   The book that triggered this posting was "Sweet Dreams, Sweet
Princes", a Baen book by Mack Reynolds with some posthumous help
from Michael Banks.  A substantially different version is supposed
to have appeared in Analog magazine in 1964.  This is a combination
'a' and 'b'.  As nearly as I could tell, this book is virtually
identical to the book published under the title "Time Mercenary".
(I only spot checked.  Since I have TM I wasn't interested in buying
SDSP.)

So what are the publisher's obligations as far as this kind of
disclosure is concerned?  Anyone know?

Dani Zweig

------------------------------

Date: Fri 3 Oct 86 18:55:23-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: sad state of proofreading

There is a prominent typo that's amused me for a while: The Bluejay
Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" says "Rouge Queen" right on
the spine of the book!  Anyone know any other such blatant screwups?

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 17:50:08 GMT
From: ihlpl!marcus@caip.rutgers.edu (Hall)
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

On the videotape release of Buckaroo Banzai, they misspelled Banzai
on the tape label (they spelled it Bonzai)!

Marcus Hall
..!ihnp4!ihlpl!marcus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1986 09:07 EDT
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: FTL travel in Trek novels

I have always been fascinated by the ideas of FTL travel presented
in various ST novels, such as "The Wounded Sky."  In the back of the
novel there are several references listed.  Some of which obviously
do not exist as their publication dates are in the future.  However,
there were at least two references that were dated before 1986, and
at least one of those seems to actually exist although I've not been
able procure a copy of it: Richard J. Gott III, "Creation of open
universes from de Sitter space," Nature, vol. 295, January 28, 1982.

First, the standard method of propulsion in ST is the warp drive,
which envelops the starship in a bubble of sub-space where the speed
of light is significantly faster than that of our "space."

Second, a race develops a drive that generates a point of de Sitter
space inside the drive unit.  de Sitter space is supposed to be a
space of infinite mass and hence no mass, and every point in de
Sitter space represents infinite/no mass.

Third, in SPOCK MUST DIE, the other (bad) Spock creates a miniature
warp-drive in the shuttlecraft by tapping Hilbert space, the space
of "continuous creation" where hydrogen nuclei are formed.

I have heard from other people that the "spaces" described by the
various ST novels have all been postulated by theoretical physicists
at one time or another, and do enjoy some currency today.  I am
curious to know if this is a fact, and if so, can anyone steer me
towards any sources of information on these subjects?

Also, what is the general opinion on these fictional "theories" for
FTL travel?  Most discussions of FTL involve the "brute force"
method of exceeding the speed of light (i.e., the same way you
exceed the speed limit on the interstate).  Each of the methods
described above provides an alternate and somewhat more subtle way
to accomplish the same ends.  IF the theoretical basis of the ideas
in those novels is there in real-life, are there any current
theories on exploiting them for FTL travel?  Are they feasible?

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 86 01:41:00 GMT
From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Impossibilities

To set the record straight here, the reason scientists and engineers
used to think supersonic flight was impossible is that they tried to
used the equations for subsonic flight, which produce a division by
zero at the speed of sound. However, the subsonic equations contain
certain assumptions built into them which do not hold for transonic
or supersonic flight. Once those assumptions are accounted for you
can come up with the proper equations for transonic and supersonic
speeds. (Well, mostly. Transonic equations are really ugly.)

Wombat
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 86 23:47:38 GMT
From: unc!gallmeis@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities (...and Recommended Reading)

desj@brahms.UUCP (David desJardins) writes:
>   There is a name for the opposite belief -- that the behavior of
>the universe can be understood.  It is called 'science.'
>Understandably, therefore, those of us who consider ourselves
>'scientists' don't go along with your opinion as expressed above.

Is it the opposite of science to say that there are things science
cannot find out?  I would hate to think I were anti-science -- I'd
sure feel stupid! I did not mean to say that science is a crock --
it works, doesn't it?

I think it is obvious that the scientific method and the empirical
quest for knowledge have been, ah, successful, to understate things
considerably.  At the same time, I think it is obvious that there
are things science (as we know it) can never discover, because this
sort of knowledge is just not susceptible to the empirical method of
attack.

In short, I think that "Scientific Knowledge" is a proper subset of
"Knowledge".  I think it is a little pompous to say that you can
learn anything by the scientific method, and that, once science
uncovers something, it will never be disproven.

>   I can't help wondering how you can be so sure of yourself, in
>criticizing others for being too sure of themselves.

I'm not.  The emphatic wording of my posting was meant to stimulate
some interesting conversation.  And thank you, it succeeded.

Yours in wondering as well,

Bill O. Gallmeister
...!mcnc!unc!gallmeis

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 01:16:28 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael)
Subject: impossiblities

Let's face it, some of the people flaming on about ftl just do not
have a real firm grasp of why modern physics doesn't believe in it.
It's not because the Lorenz-Fitzgerald equations make no sense for
v>c, it's a far deeper reason having to do with causality and the
nature of information. Basically it is my claim that if ftl exists,
then modern physics is *SO* wrong that it will have to be almost
*COMPLETELY* rethought. And so for time travel, and similar kinds of
magic. I won't try to explain just why ftl is "impossible" according
to modern physics -- I am not a physicist. I DID however take a
philosophy-of-science course given by one of the experts in that
field which is a fusion of physics, philosophy, and probability, so
I am not just coming out of the blue....

Of course, I could be just wrong, but it is hard to see how the
framework of modern physics which rests indirectly on relativity
could be right if ftl is possible. And of course the equations as
well as various other predictions of relativity have all been
experimentally proven correct. Just like Newton's Laws, I know, but
you have to assume current theory is right, or why bother with
science at all?

For whoever mentioned tachyons, it is a basic property of tachyons
that they can no way interact with normal particles (tardyons), and
so their existence can never be proved or disproved. This being the
case Occam's Razor (as well as common sense) says we might as well
ignore them except as a good name for our fictional ftl radio and
ftl stardrive.

Annoyingly,

Laurence

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Oct 86 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #333
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 86 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #333
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 333

Today's Topics:

        Books - Asimov & Ellison (2 msgs) & Myers (2 msgs) &
                Silverberg & Story Request (2 msgs) & DaVinci

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Oct 86 13:32:39 EDT
From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Foundation and Earth (a BIG disappointment)

Foundation and Earth, the latest in Asimov's meta-series on the
history of the galaxy, is a total flop as far as I'm concerned.  I'm
sorry I wasted the money on it.

<very mild spoiler, or maybe big spoiler>

The entire book seems to take maybe a few months altogether, right
after the events of Foundation's Edge.  As expected (that's the main
problem with the book), Golan Trevize is searching for Earth.  Not
too surprisingly, Golan Trevize and Bliss go along with him.  Also
not too surprisingly, they have some adventures along the way.

So what's the problem?  The book ties up all the loose ends of
Foundation's Edge, Robots and Empire, and Pebble in the Sky (or was
it one of the others?).  But the way that it ties them up is
altogether too predictable.  The various adventures are either
contrived closings of loopholes or completely irrelevant tales that
add nothing to the novel except for word count (in the preface, the
Good Doctor refers to his contract with Doubleday...).  The approach
of the book is completely mechanical; there is very little plot, and
none of the multiple story lines that characterize the other books.
It might as well have been written first person from Golan Trevize's
viewpoint.

The ending is the only thing remotely resembling a surprise; careful
readers of Asimov's recent novels might be able to guess it anyhow.
After the truly amazing ending of Robots and Empire, this one was a
big letdown.  There's not even anything worthwhile open for a
sequel.

Up until now I've looked forward to the next robot/empire/foundation
novel.  This time, I think it's about time to call it quits.

Robert Krawitz
rlk@athena.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 14:09 PDT
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Harlan Ellison

I have been to a couple of Ellison's talks at conventions and the
like over the years.  He has _always_ been a humorous and
interesting speaker, and I would immediately go and see him again.

He does have an acerbic attitude, but I think he realizes it and
cultivates it.  He told this story way back in 1977 at a Star Trek
con in Seattle, where he also read his wonderful story, _How's the
Nightlife on Cassalda?_ which was commissioned by Penthouse and
published by Heavy Metal (I forget when).

He was fresh out of the Texas Rangers and glad of it (he didn't want
them and they didn't want him, but the draft did).  He had just
published two books and was well on his way to becoming "a star," at
least in his own mind.  He was toodling around Virginia in his
little red sports car when he ran into an old girlfriend.  She
invited him out to her parent's farm for Sunday breakfast that week.
Well, needless to say he showed up, dressed very fine and impressed
the family with his wonderful demeanor (must not be the same one he
uses these days).  Well, it turned out that a gate had gotten open
and the cattle had scattered into the woods surrounding the farm.
Well, Harlan knew how to ride a horse and so he offered to round
them up for the young lady.  Unfortunately he hadn't brought any
spare clothes, so she went and got some of her 14 year old brother's
jeans.  They were only a bit tight on Harlan, but he said he was in
perfect shape after being in the Rangers, so he went bareback and
bare chested to round up the cattle.  Well, after galloping into the
woods and snapping a branch of a tree to drive the cattle back to
the farm, he notices a group of girls emerging from the woods and
talking with the girl he is visiting.  Noticing that they keep
looking at him and pointing, he plays it up to the hilt and is
ultracool as he drives the cattle back into the corral and closes
the gate without getting off the horse.  Then he rides up to the
group of girls, rears the horse, leaps off, and bounds over the
fence to land dramatically in front of them and rips the biggest
fart you have EVER heard.  He says that he turned completely red and
went to hide immediately.  The moral he said was, "This is what
happens to you when you are trying to be cool.  So don't."

I guess this makes me think that Harlan, while being a crotchity
fart, does not take himself very seriously, despite his remarks that
make people think that.  His biggest problem seems to be with
cooperation.  He wants creative control over everything he is
involved with, and that puts him at odds with other creative people.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Oct 86  10:01 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Asimov and Ellison and "Ego"

Eric J. Simon (wccs.e-simon%weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet) quotes Dr.
Asimovs' (I am personally not friendly enough with the man to call
him "Isaac") account of his first meeting with Harlan Ellison as
described in his introduction to "Dangerous Visions". In Dr.
Asimovs' version of the meeting, Mr. Ellison stunned the good doctor
with the line: "Well, I think you're a *nothing*!"
   When I myself first read the aforementioned anecdote, I was
shocked.  Although Mr. Ellison is often energetic and vehement in
his writing, his anger is invariably directed toward our Great
Society, where pretentious movie stars and vigilantes are far more
admired and respected than great scientists and artists. Nowhere in
his writing (or in the writing of others referring to him) do I
detect such a unreasoning vicious streak that would prompt such a
remark toward a writer such as Dr. Asimov, toward whom Mr. Ellison
freely admits he feels nothing but respect and admiration.
   It is unfortunate that Mr. Simon did not go on to read Mr.
Ellisons' version of the meeting in the second introduction of the
book. In it, he takes great pains to correct Dr. Asimovs'
recollection of the event.  He states that he did not say, "Well, I
think you're a *nothing*!"  The actual words were, according to Mr.
Ellison, "Well, you're not so much!" This seems to me to be much
more in accord with the reaction noted by both authors. In a crowd
of people at a bar, the "nothing" remark would evoke a sudden quiet,
while the people waited for Dr.  Asimovs' reaction to such a
challenging remark. The "not so much" remark would indeed produce
uproarious laughter in those who are familiar with Dr. Asimovs'
reputation for productivity and high self-esteem.  (I was a
bartender for 3 years while going to college, so I have a pretty
good idea how groups of people react in such situations.)
   I can only conclude that this was one of those rare cases where
Dr.  Asimovs memory of an event is not quite perfect.
   In any case, all this is besides the point. The so-called "ego"
of a writer has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their
writing.  In fact, no personality quirks should be considered when
evaluating a writers work; the work itself is the only important
thing.
   Should we question the value of the works of Hemmingway or Dylan
Thomas because they were alcoholics? Oscar Wilde because he was a
homosexual? Lewis Carroll because he was a pedophile? The greatest
writers of all time were great because their flawed personalities
allowed them to look at the world in a way we "normal" people can't
imagine.
   Mr. Simon, when you have published over 350 works on an
incredibly vast range of subjects as Dr. Asimov has, I will
acknowledge your right to criticise his "ego". For now, if he
doesn't have a right to think highly of himself, who has?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 00:15:41 GMT
From: ur-tut!abd1@caip.rutgers.edu (Alfred Dunn)
Subject: Silverlock sequel

I read Silverlock around '79 and have seen a sequel on the shelf at
our local bookstore for a couple of years now.  So today I finally
got it.  _The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter_ is the title.  Anyone
read it yet?  I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about it
on the net.  Looking at the first few pages, I see that it was
copyrighted in 1981, also that Myers Myers was born in 1906.
There's also a booklist:

By  John Myers Myers:

   The Harp and the Blade
   Out on Any Limb
   The Wild Yazoo
   The Alamo
   Silverlock
   The Last Chance
   Doc Holiday
   Dead Warrior
   I, Jack Swilling
   Maverick Zone:
    Red Conner's Night in Ellsworth
     The Sack of Calabasas
    The Devil Paid in Angel's Camp
   The Deaths of the Bravos
   Pirate, Pawnee and Mountain Man
   San Francisco's Reign of Terror
   Print in a Wild Land
   The Westerners
   The Border Wardens
   The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter

   Anybody read any of the above?  Any recommendations:?
   Are there any other Silverlock sequels?

Al Dunn
Uucp: ...seismo!rochester!ur-tut!abd1
Bitnet: Abd1@uordbv
        Abd1@uorvm
Usmail:  268 West Lake Road #70
         Honeoye, N.Y. 14471
Phone-Work: (716) 275-2811   Home: 367-3577

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 01:34:26 GMT
From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Silverlock sequel

The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter is a sequel to Silverlock in only
the loosest possible philosophical sense.  It also is pretty poor.
(That was an opinion, your mileage may vary)

I was very disappointed, with MFED.  I enjoy Silverlock very much.

From the booklist (not included here) I get the impression that most
of Myers' output is in the Western genre.  The only other work of
his that I have read is The Harp and the Blade.  It is (believe it
or not) a story of CONAN returning to his old Celtic stomping
grounds.  Definitely not in the expected Conan mythos.  It is also
an acceptably good story (believe it or not) and I recommend it.

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@rochester

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 23:10:34 GMT
From: dciem!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg (SPOILER)

>      I like Silverberg's novels; I really do.  But this one is so
> exasperating, so annoying, ...

I like Silverberg's novels too, though I haven't read his very thick
ones of recent years, and I like Evelyn Leeper's review.  But I
disliked TOM O'BEDLAM for reason quite different from hers.

>      So what do I find so exasperating?  Not Silverberg's writing
> style-- that is as good as ever. ...

Not for me.  To me it felt as if this was a novel of 2/3 its actual
length that had been padded out to the length currently considered
desirable by publishers.  I would have made massive cuts in the
first half of the book.

> ...  It's the message that drives me up the wall.  ... [Tom's]
> visions, and those of the newly born tumbonde' sect, and those of
> the patients in an exclusive mental institution near Mendocino all
> point toward an apocalyptic transition for the human race.  This
> vision is best expressed by one of the converts to tumbonde': "The
> gate will open; the great ones will come among us and make things
> better for us ..."

That is what happens in the story...

> ... My objection ... is that Silverberg seems to be saying that we
> needn't do anything to improve things here on earth--powerful
> alien beings will show up to solve all our problems.

But I don't think that that's the message.

> ...  Tom, because of his mutation, is a critical nexus in the
> Crossing.  And while some people are eager to "cross" and become
> the wards of these super-beings, others are not.  And how does Tom
> feel about sending these, in effect killing them on Earth to send
> their souls elsewhere?  "It wasn't a killing anymore than the
> other killings were. ... I didn't kill you ... I did you the
> biggest favor of your life."  So also said the Inquisition as it
> lit the auto da fe'.

Good parallel.  Because there are two other interpretations of Tom's
talent that are possible.  He could simply be broadcasting
*delusions*.  When he *think* he is sending someone to another
world, he is killing them.  This is why some characters are
reluctant to be sent!  However, they get sent anyway, willy-nilly.

It's also possible that he is right about the other worlds existing
-- there is evidence presented that they do, but some choose to see
it as another form of broadcast delusion -- but that, as the one
most suited to receive and project the visions, he has gone mad and,
again, thinks he can send people there when he is really killing
them.

The book carefully *does not show* that anyone arrives at the other
worlds.  Neither does it say that they do not arrive there.  The
last chapter ends with Tom, feeling his power growing with practice,
starting to send them in greater and greater numbers while the
bodies pile up around him.  There is no scene on another world.  Is
he really transporting souls, or are the skeptics right?

The other worlds of the book are much like Heaven.  Some people
think they know that it exists and how to get there, and they go to
great time and effort to convince others to share their faith, but
the issue will never be decided by physical proof here on Earth.

But some people will always believe.  Are they wrong if, like the
Inquisition, like Tom O'Bedlam, they act according to this belief?

I think the book is capable of being read as either a statement for
or against faith and religion, depending one which characters one
identifies with.  I suspect that it was simply intended to make us
*think* about faith.  Because it is also saying that, right or
wrong, *believers* will always be with us.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Oct 86  12:00 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: book request...

   I remember reading a book when I was in grade school (about 15
years ago) that I thought was great at the time. I can only remember
a few scattered scenes now: the protagonist escaping aliens by
chasing them and throwing small, deadly radioactive pellets; he
escapes radiation poisoning by using a "rejuvinator" machine which
rebuilds his body to perfection...later he ends up on an arid Venus,
wearing a plate on the back of his neck to avoid gaseous "jellyfish"
who have the nasty habit of floating too high to see, and plummeting
to inbed themselves into the spine...I believe he also goes to
Mars...
   If this sounds familiar to anyone, I would be grateful for the
title and author of this book...just out of curiosity, I would like
to see if it can stand the test of time...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Oct 86 20:14 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: story request

Does anyone remember a story from Analog, in the Sixties or early
Seventies featuring a race of huge arboreal cats called, amazingly
enough, "arborodons," which were green and rather like double
saber-tooth tigers (two tails, two pairs of "sabers," even two
spinal cords?!?)  Fairly pedestrian actually, and probably a John W.
Campbell edited story, but I'd still like to find it and reread it.
Thanks in advance.

Greg Morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 14:53:38 edt
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: DaVinci

DaVinci figured in a short story I read some 15+ years ago.  I can't
remember the author (maybe Poul Anderson ?) and it was a foreign
edition. I shut up in the hope that someone would come up with a
better reference, but no one did, so ...

*** SPOILER WARNING ***

The gist was that the first men on the moon found some soft shoe's
footprints on the lunar dust. Following them, they find a cave; they
recognize that the lighting in the cave is exactly the same as in
the "Madonna of the Rocks" (transl ?) painting, and they know who
their predecessor was ...

Happy hunting.
Tony    (abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Oct 86 0802-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #334
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 86 0802-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #334
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 334

Today's Topics:

           Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation (6 msgs) &
                   Impossibilities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 86 21:06:56 GMT
From: aplvax!mae@caip.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: the continuing discussion of Japanese animation
Subject: characterization

Just as American TV has kids shows, teen oriented shows, adult shows
and shows for the whole family, so does Japanese TV.  The difference
some people seem to be missing in this discussion is that in
Japanese TV and movies, *any* topic can be animated - it is just
another medium of presentation, not a signal that the show is "just
for kids".  So there can be anime shows aimed at small kids (i.e.
Dr. Slump), teenagers (most of the action shows), and adults (i.e.
Patalliro).  There are animated comedies, dramas, sports shows and
soap operas.  The problem with Americanizing them is that studios
can't see past the "animation is for kiddie cartoons" (= simple
comedies) syndrome.  So when they buy a violent drama, such as
Gatchaman, they end up cutting it to ribbons to make it acceptable
for kids, with poor results like Battle of the Planets.  Harmony
Gold has avoided this problem, though they certainly have others, in
keeping death scenes and not substituting "robot ships" and
contrived escapes.  But Hutch is right, they'll never do Devilman.

Mary Anne Espenshade
{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae
mae@aplvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 86 16:09:14 GMT
From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

kaufman@nike.uucp (Bill Kaufman) writes:
> Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE
> Western.  In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the
> ones that aren't exported to the U.S.  OK, try this:
> (Show)                (U.S. title)        (Place)
> Urashamon (sp?)  Future police       Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco)
> Gatchamon        G-Force             New San Fransisco
> Macross          Robotech            A U.S.-held Pacific Is.
>
> I also think that YAMATO's base was in S.F.  (Kinda stilted view
> of the U.S., huh?  I guess that from Japan, the biggest U.S. city
> is S.F.  I guess the proximity makes for an appearance of SIZE!
> ;-)

Sorry guys, but apparently you're all kinda wrong.

Dr. Tezaka (Creator of Leo-Ceasar/Kimba, Mighty Atom/Astro Boy, and
HUNDREDS of others) was the pioneer in the Japanese comics industry
(mangas) and was extremely influences in life by all of the Disney
flicks. When Tezaka spearheaded the animation industry with Mighty
Atom (A bit of trivia for you folks), he purposely drew the eyes
large as to express emotions (an unwritten rule in Japan is that you
do not publicly show emotion, but a way to get around it is
eye-contact).

When the manga AND anime industries boomed, artists took Tezaka's
hint a step further; drawing eyes larger and expressing emotions not
only in the eyes, but publicly as well.

As for exploiting Caucasian looks, the Japanese have done this
basically from two reasons: One) The United States was "Big Brother"
to them after WWII, why not give them praise for it (After all, the
US brought them back from economic ruin after WWII within a few
scant years); and Two) At the time, the Japanese (Tezaka included)
thought that the future belonged to the Caucasians, so they
emphasized it.

As for shows dealing with the US in gereral (Addendum to above):
> (Show)     (U.S. title)        (Place)
> Urashiman: Future police       Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco)
> Gatchaman     G-Force New San Fransisco
> Macross       RobotechA U.S.-held Pacific Is.
  Mospeada      Robotech: New Gen.      New York City (for 1 ep)
  Dan Couga     (Not brought over)      Colorado (for 5 episodes)
  Giant Gorg    (Not brought over)      New York (for 1 episode)
  Fist of the Bear Claw (Not brought over)      Mid-Western US
  MS Gundam     (Not brought over)      Dallas, TX (for 2 episodes)
  MS Z Gundam   (Not brought over)      Cape Kennedy, FL (for 2 eps)
  SQCR Galatt   (Not brought over)      Los Angeles
  Lupin the 3rd (Not brought over)      All over eastern US (sev. eps)
  Bismark       Star Sheriffs   US continent (for 3 episodes)

Of course the list is longer, but I have Sooooo little space to type.

PS. The Yamato's base WAS in Tokyo, unfortunately in Final Yamato,
it looked a lot like Pearl (in joke, especially since one of the
cruisers in the harbor was one of the Arizona-class space cruisers).

Kenneth Fung
UUCP: {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!canisuis!daemen!fung

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 86 03:54:18 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: TV SF / Japanimation

>One was "Twelve to the Moon".  It was in black and white.  It was
>about an expedition to the moon with a crew/staff from at least
>both the U.S.  and the USSR, possibly others (probly UN).  As I
>understood it (with my single-digit-age brain), they had been
>bewitched/enthralled/mind-controlled by some unseen being or force.
>(Perhaps it *was* seen -- I hadda leave for a while.)

No, the force was never seen.  It was only a voice.  In the end the
lunar beings freeze the earth and only cooperation among the
astronauts saves it.  It as made in 1960 with people like Tom Conway
and Francis X. Bushman.  Not very good.

>The other was in color, perhaps the first I'd ever seen,
>called "Battle in Outer Space".

This one was somewhat better, though it was mostly a special effects
extravaganza in the days before special effects were really
accomplished.  I always thought of it as sort of a follow-up to the
MYSTERIANS.  Aleins with a base on the moon attack Earth.  Earth
must first fight them on their home turf, then they bring a whole
armada to Earth with the mother ship going to Tokyo.  The film was
ahead of its time: lots of action, lots of spectacular spfx, not
much on characters or plot.  1959.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 86 16:07:15 GMT
From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE
>Western.  In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the
>ones that aren't exported to the U.S.  OK, try this:

Sorry, but you're wrong. The reason you probably feel that the "Good
Guys look American" is that most of the Good Guys have the rounded
eyes so common here as opposed to the normal shape of the oriental
eye. The thing to remember is that the Japanese have become, to some
extent, fascinated with the shape of the caucasian eye and many find
it to be attractive. In fact, this is why many Japanese undergo
cosmetic surgery to give their eyes a more rounded shape. Take a
look at Macross. In the original version I believe you'll find that
Rick, and probably Lisa (Misa Hayase), Sammy, Vanessa, Max, and Ben
were all Japanese and Minmei and Kyle were Chinese.

>(Show)            (U.S. title)            (Place)
>Urashamon (sp?)   Future police           Neo-Tokyo (San Fransisco)
>Gatchamon         G-Force                 New San Fransisco
>Macross           Robotech                A U.S.-held Pacific Is.

That's funny. I always thought that Macross Island wasn't held by
any one country. You're forgetting both "Boobytrap" and the recent
Robotech Graphic Novel in which it was revealed that a world war was
halted when the countries realized that they had better work
together on the SDF-1 in preperation for any other aliens that might
land on Earth. Remember the crew and people were various
nationalities. Captain Gloval was Russian. Minmei and her folks were
Chinese. And so on.

>I also think that YAMATO's base was in S.F.  (Kinda stilted view of
>the U.S., huh?  I guess that from Japan, the biggest U.S. city is
>S.F.  I guess the proximity makes for an appearance of SIZE! ;-)

Not quite. Remember that Japan is an island nation. Any military
might that it has must be founded on its navy. Large armies don't do
you any good when you can't get them out of the homeland. San
Francisco is one of the largest ports, and certainly one of the best
known, in the continental United States.  Therefore it is not at all
surprising that the Japanese might use it as a setting for some of
their series.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 86 00:24:25 GMT
From: sadoyama@miro.Berkeley.EDU (The Fifteenth Dead Man)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti) writes:
>The reason you probably feel that the "Good Guys look American" is
>that most of the Good Guys have the rounded eyes so common here as
>opposed to the normal shape of the oriental eye. The thing to
>remember is that the Japanese have become, to some extent,
>fascinated with the shape of the caucasian eye and many find it to
>be attractive. In fact, this is why many Japanese undergo cosmetic
>surgery to give their eyes a more rounded shape.

This is very very true. That eye operation is the MOST common
cosmetic surgery operation performed in Japan, not to mention
Honolulu (my hometown).

>Take a look at Macross. In the original version I believe you'll
>find that Rick, and probably Lisa (Misa Hayase), Sammy, Vanessa,
>Max, and Ben were all Japanese and Minmei and Kyle were Chinese.

Also, another thing that may be throwing people off is that in
Japanese comics, you don't have to have black hair to be Japanese.
All those blonds, brunettes, redheads, green- and blue- and
yellow-haired types are all really Japanese, unless the comic tells
you otherwise. Most manga start out as cheap pulp black-and-whites,
and it gets very dull (not to mention throwing off the artistic
balance of the page) if everybody's hair is black.

Eric Sadoyama

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 86 22:38:33 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: USENET metaphor for SETI? Macross allegory?

> kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>>Sorry, but I still feel like the heroes on those cartoons ARE
>>Western.  In ALL of them, the Good Guys look American, even the
>>ones that aren't exported to the U.S.  OK, try this:

I'll try again.  In Japanese animation, the artistic style is to
have characters with large, round eyes because the father of
Japanese animation, Tezuka, was a big fan of Walt Disney.  Most of
Disney's characters had (you guessed it!) LARGE, ROUND EYES.  The
style is still widespread, but MANY Japanese animated films do not
have the large eyes.

Concerning Macross, it is typical for the Japanese films to have
international characters.  Macross is an excellent example of this.
Our hero (called Rick Hunter in Robotech) Hikaru Ichijo, is clearly
Japanese (Karl Macek named him Rick Yamada in the *original*
Robotech episodes).  Lynn Minmay is Chinese.  Major Roy Fokker is
either German or American.  Misa Hayase (Lisa Hayes) is unclear.
Brigadier General Gloval ("Captain Gloval") is Russian.  The
Japanese do like to have many races represented in their animated
films.

Bottom line -- The large eyes are artistic stylizations ONLY!

The multiple hair colors are also artisticly motivated.  Is someone
with green or purple hair Japanese or American?

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 14:49:05 GMT
From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Impossibilities (the Law of Fives)

From: desj@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (David desJardins)
>hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes:
>>This is the very model of what a true scientific law must always
>>be: a statement about how the human mind relates to the cosmos. We
>>can never make a statement about the cosmos itself--but only about
>>how our senses (or our instruments) detect it, and about how our
>>codes and languages symbolize it.
>>
>>We must remember that scientific inquiry can only build possible
>>models to describe the behavior we have observed.  Since these
>>models are human artifacts, they must _necessarily_ reflect our
>>experience of human existence.
>>
>>They are not and can never be complete representations of the
>>universe!
>
>      This is the place in which I would normally attempt to refute
>Mr.  Hurst's arguments.  However, the astute reader will note that
>he does not give any arguments!  He gives no justification
>whatsoever for any of the claims.  And so I, and anyone
>who is interested in intelligent discussion rather than unsupported
>claims, will simply ignore them.

Oh, this one *does* look like such fun: thanks David, it's so nice
to have someone who both argues and makes good arguments to play
with.

There are several nice arguments for Hurst's propsition, which I
understand as being "all scientific facts are models of reality and
therefore not complete representations of reality."  And by the way,
I both agree with this idea and don't think it in any way conflicts
with "science" as I understand it.

1)  Information-theoretic argument.

    Note first that all scientific laws are abstractions taken from
    reality.  If we have a law that says F = ma, we have abstracted
    in the following ways:

    a) we have gone from observations of events to a model for those
       events; this model necessarily removes information.  It does
       not say "if I move this brick, causing it to accelerate at
       this rate, I apply a force of that much" nor does the law
       include all those cases with which the law was derived.  Thus
       there is loss of information.  *Necessary* loss of
       information, but loss none-the-less.
    b) further, we have abstracted from the cognitive structure of
       the law as we think of it, into the formal symbolism.
       Another loss of information, since we need to know what the
       string "F = ma" means to know what it means.

       Think of it as coding: a code contains information only to
       extent that we have a structure to relate it to (as e.g. a
       psuedonoise sequence -- unless we know that it is a PN
       sequence, it looks random, at least until the repetition
       comes around.  Even then, unless we know about PN sequences,
       it still looks almost random and doesn't tell us much.)

2) Logical: scientific laws are based on models made by observation;
    we then test these models by making and checking predictions.
    However, these models never give complete certainty -- they
    cannot, because they don't observe *all* events, only the finite
    number of experiments on which they are based.  A statement of
    scientific law cannot -- by its nature -- be a statement that
    such-and-such an event CAN never happen, just that we predict
    that this event WILL never happen.  It is precisely the
    difference between deduction and induction.  (Which is not the
    Principle of Finite Induction or its analogues, of course.)

3) Observational: scientific laws are superceded regularly by newer
    versions of scientific laws.  Newton's F = ma was modified by
    Einstein's extra restriction that one must know the environment
    and relationship between observer and observed; Einstein's laws
    in turn are being challenged and modified by quantum mechanics.
    Thus the observations lead us to the prediction that all
    scientific laws will eventually be modified to reach a closer
    correspondence with reality.  However, the *observations* DO NOT
    lead us to predict that there will be an end, a final perfect
    description; if fact, such an assertion is non-testable, since
    it requires both an assumtion that natural law cannot change and
    that we can test the supposedly- perfect description against all
    future events.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Oct 86 0819-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #335
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 86 0819-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #335
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 335

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Zelazny (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Oct 86 15:17 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: re: amber

ronald o. christian asks:
>...if the chaos lords have only limited travel in shadow, how did
>oberon originally travel away from the courts to enscribe the
>pattern?

Simple.  Shadow did not exist until Dworkin (not Oberon) enscribed
the pattern.  Dworkin simply rode as far away from the physical
courts of chaos as he could, but still stayed in the courts in the
larger sense.  The creation of the pattern, in conflict with the
courts' own symbol, whose name I cannot remember, created the
shadows.  Chaosians cannot travel through shadow because it is the
pattern that created it and the pattern is foreign to those of the
courts.  There is a beautiful passage in which Dworkin describes his
hellride out of the courts and his creation of the pattern,
discovered in a jewel found around the neck of a unicorn.

>Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters and
>apparently anyone from the courts also has this talent.  Why then
>don't any of the children of oberon have this ability?  Does
>walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)

It is entirely possible that Oberon's children can shape shift.
Remember, Brand only learned how to draw trumps because he hung
around Dworkin.  The children were far more interested in shadow
than abilities Dworkin and Oberon hid.  Martin, random's son, could
draw trumps too, so the power persisted to that generation.

But those are pattern-based powers.  The chaos-based powers were
(presumably) being drowned out by pattern saturated genes.  There is
a passage in which Corwin says that the pattern somehow appears in
their genes.  That pattern became included in Dworkin's genes as he
enscribed it using the jewel of judgment (and Dworkin is the
grandfather, of course).  Only Dworkin had a full set of chaos genes
(mutated but still there).  Oberon has some but fewer, and the
children even less.  Corwin's enemy and lover, whose name escapes
me, says that it was time to inject some new strength into the line.
(The quote is very inexact).

>thirdly, there seems to be some kind of tie between Oberon and the
>unicorn.  anyone want to speculate?  bestiality?

Yes, apparently so.  The unicorn is Dworkin's mate and Oberon's
mother.  I don't believe this was actually bald-facedly stated, but
it was obvious to me at least (at least after four readings, at
which point I started to figure out what was going on).  No, I don't
know how or why this was accomplished, but then I'm a pristine,
naive, inexperienced youth. (See the halo around my head?  Yeah,
right.)

I loved the amber series for exactly the same reason.  Zelazny has a
very good, deeply interwoven plot, which he throws in your face, not
spoon-feeding the reader.  _Trumps of Doom_ seemed less so, somehow,
but maybe that was because it only took two readings to figure out
what was happening.  I'm looking forward to _Blood of Amber_.

greg morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.arpa)
usnail:  415 cavanaugh/notre dame in 46556
voicenet: (219) 283-1543

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Oct 86 21:35:15 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael)
Subject: Amber Quibble

We KNOW that the Logrus is not an aspect of the primal pattern
because Chaos existed prior to Law. In all mythologies Chaos (in the
form of the Abyss, Ocean, Nunnu, etc) exists prior to Law. Almost
all of Zelazny's writing is highly mythic in character (hey, I got
an A in my undergrad mythology class for my paper on Lord of Light),
and things are definitely set up this way.

I personally doubt that Dworkin was The Originator of Amber. He is
too unstable a character, even discounting the effects of Martin's
blood.  Rather, Dworkin is a focus the Unicorn used to create Amber
(she gave the Jewel of Judgement to him, I believe). Dworkin is more
like the Corn King of old, whose life was tied to his domain and who
ruled under the auspices of whichever Goddess-archetype you prefer.
When Amber was beset (resulting from treachery rather than external
assault, really), Dworkin's state reflected Amber's disarray, albeit
the whole thing originated in the attack on Martin. Also note that
Amberites consider the Unicorn to be more of a patron-deity than a
founding mother.... I'm interested in the parallels with The
Traveller in Black, which incidentally was just reprinted by
Bluejay.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 07:57:00 GMT
From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: History of the Universe up to _Bloo

>The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the
>Universe under the effect of the Pattern.  As they get closer and
>closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift
>Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by
>themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes
>employed.

They also find it difficult to move through shadow in the physical
vicinity of Amber, presumably due to the presence of the pattern.
Corwin, one of the better walkers, is one of the few who seems able
to shift shadow even slightly on the near side of the mountain.  As
one goes further into shadow and further from Amber physically, it
gets easier until approaching Chaos.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 12:46:26 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael)
Subject: amber

(Re the comment on the Trumps of Doom cover). Yeah. have you noticed
that Zelazny seems to be consistently screwed as far as covers go?
The only ones I have ever liked were those black Avon paperbacks
with the little medallions of art on them, and you couldn't really
call that a full cover, like a Whelan piece, say.

I *DON'T* believe that the Unicorn is a shape-shifter, or a creature
of chaos.  She is definitely an Agent of Law. Perhaps she arose out
of the primal chaos like order tends to in most mythologies (also
see Brust's To Reign in Hell and Brunner's The Traveler In Black --
Moorcock is not so appropriate, I think) but remember she is in a
sense the origin of the Pattern -- the bearer of the Jewel of
Judgement.

I am completely lost as to why someone should think that Oberon and
the Unicorn has any sort of congress -- please explain? I think that
Zelazny could profitably write a short story about the advent of the
Unicorn before Dworkin -- it would be rather neat in that
pseudo-ancient-lay style he used in Creatures of Light and Darkness.

Laurence
Name:             Laurence Raphael Brothers
Organization:     Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey
Uucp-Address:     topaz!brothers
Internet-Address: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
Bell-Address:     {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790}
Postal-Address:   BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 16:32:52 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson)
Subject: Shape-shifting ability

topaz!brothers ( Laurence Raphael Brothers ) writes:
>About the shape-shifting ability. It was supposed to die out in the
>third generation -- remember Corwin's tongue-in-cheek remark "maybe
>none of us ever tried" (I paraphrase);

Dara said this, not Corwin. From "The Courts of Chaos":

"'Then why is it that we cannot do it?' Random asked."
"She shrugged. 'Have you ever tried? Perhaps you can. On the other
hand, it may have died out with your generation.'"

>I presume each and every one of them would have tried to learn to
>shape-change since they knew it was an ability of their ancestors.

They did *not* know it until Oberon gave up his Ganelon disguise.
In any case, it seems that there were many things that Oberon could
do that his children could not.

Marc Wilson
crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 16:31:02 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson)
Subject: Re: Shape-shifting

paul@mit-amt.MIT.EDU writes:
>The children of Oberon are not shape-shifters because they were
>born of Shadow (i.e. their mothers were from Shadow or Amber).
>They have law and order in their veins and thus cannot change.

   Then how can both Merlin and Dara do it? Dara is descended from
Benedict and Lintra, the hellmaid, so she has "law-and-order" in her
veins. Merlin is, of course, Corwin's son, so he does too. I tend
toward the belief that those who have mastered the Logrus have the
ability.

>Walking shadow: My impression was that anyone who had both the
>blood of chaos and shadow can walk in shadow.  Dworkin can do it
>because he drew the thing (Remember though, that he has to 'sketch
>his way back into his own apartment' in the first book).

   Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within the
confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't enough
room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary.

>Perhaps he learned how to draw Trumps to allow himself to get
>around (one day, he tried a portrait and found that it worked too).
>Maybe Oberon can walk shadow because his mother is connected with
>the Pattern (or maybe he was born after Amber was made?).  Shadow
>types can't shadow walk because they are bound to the shadow they
>live in, and chaos types can't do it because they have no
>understanding of how law works.

   Any of Dworkin's descendants can walk in Shadow. The Pattern is,
in one form or another, necessary for this. As Fiona says: "Even the
Trumps contain the Pattern, if you look long enough, hard enough..."
Those of the blood royal have the Pattern in their genes.

Marc Wilson
crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 16:34:16 PDT
From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson)
Subject: Spells and names

seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc ( Ronald O. Christian ) writes:
>Corwin had no magic that I know of except the ability to shift
>shadow....
>Perhaps there *are* ways to use the Pattern to cast spells, and
>Corwin simply didn't know how.

   I can't find my copy of "The Guns of Avalon", but does anyone
remember the passage where Lorraine and Corwin are together in the
tower, and the demon comes for Corwin? He uses some form of a spell
there in an attempt to drive it off.

>Another question: Has anyone else noticed significance in names?
>Bleys and Brand came from the redhaired side of the family
>(Bleys=blaze, get it?) and Random was truly a random element in the
>struggle for the throne.  There are probably others.

   The only other one that comes to mind is Caine. If you take the
Biblical viewpoint ( Caine=Cain ), then you'll see it. Remember,
Caine put an arrow in Brand's throat on the brink of the abyss.

Marc Wilson
crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 06:37:57 GMT
From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Amber - Trumps, Patterns, and Shadow

>From: crash!pnet01!mwilson@nosc.ARPA (Marc Wilson)
>>paul@mit-amt.MIT.EDU writes:
>>Walking shadow: My impression was that anyone who had both the
>>blood of chaos and shadow can walk in shadow.  Dworkin can do it
>>because he drew the thing (Remember though, that he has to 'sketch
>>his way back into his own apartment' in the first book).
>
>     Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within
>the confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't
>enough room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary.

   One might think that Brand would need neither trump nor walk
since he could apparantly teleport anywhere within Shadow, Amber, or
Chaos at will.  Hence, a Trump is not necessary - merely a
convenience.

>>Perhaps he learned how to draw Trumps to allow himself to get
>>around (one day, he tried a portrait and found that it worked
>>too).  Maybe Oberon can walk shadow because his mother is
>>connected with the Pattern (or maybe he was born after Amber was
>>made?).  Shadow types can't shadow walk because they are bound to
>>the shadow they live in, and chaos types can't do it because they
>>have no understanding of how law works.

   You are searching for philosophical reasons for things that are
explained quite well in purely physical terms within the Amber
series.  You should recall that one of Zelazny's strong points is
his ability to create concrete descriptions of the physical laws of
his universe and to adhere to them.  Magic is not purely deus ex
machina in Zelazny's worlds.

   Shadow types can indeed walk in shadow, although not nearly as
well as Lords of Amber and Chaos.  Merlin mentions this in regard to
sorcerers near (in Shadow) to the Courts.  It is also mentioned by
Corwin that things are constantly finding their way into Amber
(usualy from nearby).  Obviously Shadow dwellers can move among
Shadows without overt help from Amber or Chaos.

   To say that Lords of Chaos cannot travel in Shadow is untrue as
well.  Especialy since the Chaos Lords can draw and use Trumps.

>     Any of Dworkin's decendants can walk in Shadow. The Pattern
>is, in one form or another, necessary for this. As Fiona says:
>"Even the Trumps contain the Pattern, if you look long enough, hard
>enough..."

   Those who have read BLOOD OF AMBER might recall that the Logrus
can also be used to create Trumps.  Therefore it is reasonable to
assume that Dworkin learned how to draw Trumps from Master Suhuy
(Merlin's teacher) at the Courts where he grew up.  Given the long
lives of Chaosians and the fact that Suhuy is quite old, it is quite
reasonable that Suhuy was alive at the time Dworkin was growing up
at the Courts.

   Recent discussion of the Jewel of Judgement implies that it is a
tool of Law (what is law? as is Law and Order? as is Good? there is
no Law in Amber).  Presumably the Jewel allows the creation of a set
of physical laws as stated by the architect of the pattern.
Currently there are three known patterns: the Logrus, the Pattern of
Amber, and Corwin's pattern.  Little is known about Corwin's save
its location and that Merlin might be able to walk it.  A great deal
is known about the other two, both of which define an area of shadow
that can be manipulated in various ways (some different, some
similar).

   To say that the jewel is undoubtly a tool of Law is premature.  I
would guess that the jewely created the Logrus as well.  How else
would the Lords of Chaos know what Dworkin was doing and try to stop
him?  How else would Dworkin learn of the Jewel and its use?  How
would he know to attune himself?  He may have gotten the Jewel from
the Unicorn, but she did not teach him - Corwin is pratically
stunned when she just looks at him; what would Unicorn speech then
do?  Further, one must recall that Amber is a young upstart of a
Universe - it is only three generations old, while Chaos has a long
history.

>Those of the blood royal have the Pattern in their genes.

   I would say it is more that the Pattern has the genes of the
inscriber encoded within it.  Why alter uncounted billions of the
inscriber's genes to match the Pattern when you can just let the
pattern be dictated, in part, by the inscriber's genes?  Even magic
follows Occam's Razor.  This is supported by Brand's comment to
Corwin that if he made a Pattern it would differ from Dorwkin's.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 86 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #336
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 336

Today's Topics:

           Television - Anderson & Battlestar Galactica &
                   Blake's 7 & City Beneath the Sea &
                   Phantom Empire & The Phoenix &
                   The Prisoner (3 msgs) & Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                   TV Anthologies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 17:11:22 GMT
From: ihlpf!rtradm@caip.rutgers.edu (Vangsness)
Subject: Anderson Fan Club

I'm a big fan of the old Gerry Anderson TV shows -I recently
purchased a videotape of "Thunderbirds to the Rescue", which is a
90-minute movie which was made from three of the Thunderbird 1/2
hour episodes involving the fate of the "Fireflash" SST disasters.

We've been having problems at this end posting to the net, e-mail,
etc, so some of my messages have not gotten out.  I'm still looking
to join the "Gerry Anderson Fan Club" that exists in England, and
would like someone to post the address for the club so I and other
interested net people can write for information regarding dues, etc.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Bob Neumann
USmail: P.O.Box 1582
Bridgeview, Ill 60455
(USA)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Oct 86 09:54:53 edt
From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-cst.arpa>
Subject: Battlestar Galactica

From: Brad Templeton
>I'm not sure I should admit I know this much about the show, but
>the "antichrist" figure, also known as Count Iblis, WAS the Cylon
>imperious leader, or the organic Cylon as some knew him.

I like your history, but I'm having a hard time reconciling this
claim with my memory of an earlier episode that showed the imperious
leader at some Cylon celebration.  He was a box-like robot with a
disk-shaped head on top.  Anybody else remember this episode?

John McLean
ARPA: mclean@nrl-css
UUCP: ...!decvax!nrl-css!mclean

------------------------------

Date: 6 October 1986 11:32:11 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7 (<Spoilers if you haven't seen the series yet>)

From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
>Someone said that Blake made two more appearances after he left.
>Anyway, he never rejoins the group.

From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
>You will see Blake again in "Terminal" and "Blake".

Say what?!! Only two more appearances and that's it??!!!! What
gives???!!  I mean, how can they call it "Blake's 7" if Blake isn't
in it? That would be like "Doctor Who" without the Doctor, wouldn't
it? They might as well have renamed it "Avon's 5", or something like
that. Which brings up another point: In the first season there were
only 6 humans on the ship (I don't count Zen and ORAC as part of the
crew, since they are only computers).  In the second season (which
I'm currently watching), there are only 5.  So why is it "Blake's
SEVEN"? If "Blake's 6" didn't sound too cool, why didn't they call
it something else in the first place? (Whew!) Ok. One more question:
Why did the actor playing Blake leave?

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 17:50:26 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: old SF TV movies

> From: ism780c!geoff   (Geoffrey Kimbrough)
> hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes:
>> Does anybody remember a movie which played on television about a
>> futuristic city built beneath the ocean? The plot revolved around
>> a giant planetoid which was going to strike the earth, directly
>> on top of this city. There was a character who had been
>> (genetically, surgically) altered so that he could breath water.
>
>Hmm, there was a mercifully short-lived series called "Man from
>Atlantis" which fits this bill.  Maybe that's what you're thinking
>of.  (No doubt there was a pilot, later shown as a "TV Movie".)

No, the tv movie in question was an Irwin Allen production called
CITY BENEATH THE SEA (1970). It was a pilot for a series that
didn't make the schedule.

>> This show also had what I think is the first appearance of the
>> flying submarine, a la Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.
>
>*If* my above surmise is correct, it would have been the *2nd* (at
>least) appearance.  VttBotS ran about a decade earlier, I think.

Well, you're surmise is not correct, and neither is your time frame,
but you're still right in that it wasn't the first appearance of the
Flying Sub.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Oct 86 17:51:20 EDT
From: BARBER%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Wayne Barber)
Subject: Phantom Empire

todd%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM says:
>At the risk of dating myself, I haven't yet noticed mention of
>(ta-da) PHANTOM EMPIRE, a show I remember fondly from my extreme
>youth in the '50s.
>
>Even then, it may have been in re-runs - or perhaps derived from
>episodes in a medium preceding widespread use of television itself.
>In memory, at any rate, it comes across as OLD (i.e., somewhat
>hokey), even for that time.

I remember this show, too, but not from the 50's.  The local public
television station showed it several years ago in its original
format - as a Saturday afternoon movie serial.

As I recall, it starred Gene Autry who did a radio show from his
ranch where there were entrances to the underground city.  The show
ended with a cliffhanger each week and I really enjoyed watching it,
but I missed the last episode.  I asked my father about it and he
said he remembered the series from when it was first shown in the
theatres and

***SPOILER FOLLOWING***

he seemed to remember that the whole adventure was just a dream.

I hope I remembered this correctly. Any corrections will be
appreciated.  No flames, please.

Wayne

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 20:54:40 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: The Phoenix

It was not Khans son. Unless you think that the character was only
15 yrs old in the movie. I guess it could be the son of his by other
then Lt Mcgivers though.  Isn't it amazing how ST creeps into
everything.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 03:11:42 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: "The Prisoner" and Rover

gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) writes:
>* Rover was intentionally amorphous and vague as it represents the
>fears that an individual faces in rejecting society which are often
>formless but ever-present.

While this may be true in some sense, I saw another interview with
McGoohan, in which he mentioned that Rover was originally supposed
to be a complicated, menacing robot.  Apparently the special effects
people built a suitable radio-controlled mechanical monster about
which they were very enthusiastic.  In its first scene (presumably
the one which would have been in the title sequence) it was supposed
to crawl out of the ocean onto a beach.  The effects people drove it
down into the water, it submerged, and that was the last anyone ever
saw of it.

With deadlines fast approaching, and a tight budget, the crew was
pretty desperate.  I do not recall the details, but basically
someone drove into town, and the most menacing (or at least
off-beat) thing they could get on short notice was a bunch of
surplus weather balloons.  Thus are legends made....

Jordin Kare

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Oct 86 10:44 MST
From: Mandel%bco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Subject: Re: "The Prisoner" & "Secret Agent"

>Prior to doing The Prisoner, Patrick MacGoohan starred in the
>series Secret Agent (which I don't believe has ever been shown in
>the US)

Oh, yes it has!  "Secret agent man, secret agent man!  They've given
you a number and taken away your name." That was the theme, or the
only part of it I remember.  That aspect relates clearly to The
Prisoner.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 07:07:18 GMT
From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Answers to Prisoner Quiz

Here are answers to the Prisoner Trivia Quiz, based on the opening
sequence.  Note that as I said, my answers are arbitrary.  In
particular, you have to assume that what went on in "Fall Out" --
the last episode, really transpired.

First, the scores.  4 people took serious stabs.  Several others
answered a few but mostly wanted to see the real answers.  Here are
the top scores, by points.  Dave Tallman wins an all expense paid
trip to the Hotel Portmerion in Wales if he also gives me the
complete decimal expansion of pi.  Total: 45 Points

   35: Dave Tallman
   32: Jeff Okamoto
   22: Mark Brader
   18: Hal Peterson

>1. "Where am I?"  "In the Village."
>[5 pts] Where was the Village?  There are three answers given in
>the show, but only one has hard evidence.

This is a tricky one.  There were two pieces of hard evidence that
you had to give for full points.  In "Many Happy Returns" the
Village is supposedly on the Mediterranean, but that's Village
fakery.  In "Chimes of Big Ben", it is in Poland.  More fakery.  The
Village is in England.
   Clue #1: The prisoner drives, over land, from the Village to
      London in "Fall Out"
   Clue #2: In "Chimes of Big Ben", when the prisoner is loaded onto
      what he thinks is a Polish truck, the truck drives on the LEFT
      hand side of the road.  There are several places this is done,
      but it points strongly to England.  (and also to a mistake by
      the filmmakers)
Some have suggested that the weather is too good in the Village for
England.  They base this on a weather forcast for a month of sunny
days given in one episode.  But in other episodes, like A, B & C, it
does rain.

>[2 pts] Where was the actual set of the Village?

The Hotel Portmerion in Wales.  Just about everybody knew this.

>2. "What do you want?"  "Information"
>[1 pt] Exactly what information did they want?

Why Number 6 resigned.  Everybody did know this.

>[6 pts] And what is the correct answer to their question.
>(This one is open to interpretation)

This one is never truly said.  It is known that it was a matter of
conscience, because "for a very long time..." (he never finished
that one.)  His immediate plans were to take a nice holiday.  He had
travel brochures for tourist spots in his hand when he was gassed,
and he wasn't planning to be gassed.  He wasn't selling out.  Best
speculation is that his agency did things he didn't like, and he
found out about them.  Some speculate he had discovered rumours of
the Village itself.  He was certainly becoming convinced that there
was little difference between the sides, and he thought there should
be.

>3. "You won't get it!  "By hook or by crook, we will"
>[2 pts] In what episode did they come closest to getting it?"

Chimes of Big Ben.  He really thinks he is back with friends here.
He is really about to sincerely spill the beans - no drugs or
suspicion of a trick.  He has never before seen that his old
superiors are in on it.  So he almost tells.

>4. "Whose side are you on?"  "That would be telling."
>[4 pts] Whose side were they on?

Well, the Village is in England, everybody speaks English, all the
#2s are of that nation, as are all the staff but not all of the
prisoners.  A joint venture in England would be unlikely.

One can also talk about what the shown means, rather than what it
shows, and say that the Village was on the side of conformism.

>5. "Who are you?"  "The new number 2."
>[2 pts]  Which actor had more than one stint as number 2?

Leo McKern left and came back.  Other #2s had more than one episode
but they were contiguous.  See below for another actor to have more
than one stint.

>[4 pts] Which actor to play #2 appeared in the most episodes?

Trick question.  I didn't ask which actor to play #2 played #2 the
most, simply which one appeared in the most episodes.  Since, as you
will see later, the Prisoner had two stints as #2, the answer is
Patrick McGoohan himself.  Fooled ya! - nobody caught this.

>[3 pts] Which actor played a character with no number?

Angelo Muscat, the Butler.  I should have been clearer here, and
asked about regular characters.  Anyway, the supervisor did have a
number.

>6. "Who is number 1?"
>[3 pts] Who was number 1?  There is a clue hidden in this quiz.

Number 6 himself, from Fall Out, although with the way they came up
with doubles in that place, who knows.  The clue of course is the
number of this trivia question.  Some like to think #2 answers this
question with "You are, number six" -- but they never say it that
way.  The inflection is (deliberately) not this way.

>7. "You are number 6."
>[4 pts] What other numbers did the Prisoner have during his stay?

#12 in Schiziod Man, #2 in Free for All and Fall Out, and #1 in Fall
Out.  I refer here only to official Village numbers, not ones he
assumed himself.

>[3 pts] What was the Prisoner's real name?

John Drake.  (No question on this, as the next question reveals)

>8. "I am not a number, I am a free man!"
>[6 pts] When was the Prisoner's real name used to address him
>during the series?

During the "total absolute" (Once Upon a Time) #2 (McKern) regresses
the Prisoner to childhood.  He plays his schoolmaster.  He can't use
any terms from later life, so he has no choice but to call the
Prisoner by his real name.  It is said in frenzy and muddled, but he
calls him "Drake."  He also used the term "Jackie" - short for John.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1986  11:30 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU>
Cc: Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
Subject: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin

   Simple.  Some people just can't force their fingers to make the
sign.  Shatner is simply unable to do it, no matter how much he's
tried.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 86 19:50:02 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: "Live Long and Prosper" sign origin

LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU (Stephen R. Balzac) writes:
>Simple.  Some people just can't force their fingers to make the
>sign.  Shatner is simply unable to do it, no matter how much he's
>tried.

Remember "Amok Time", the one where "Spock gets a mating urge and
has to kill Kirk"? (What was the direct quote?)  The lady who plays
T'Pau, if you look closely, has to set up her hands in the \\//_
manner while they're in her lap--can't do it just by flexing her
hand muscles!

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 21:20:45 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com
Subject: Re: Review: TV Anthologies

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>     TWILIGHT ZONE had two episodes this time: "Once and Future
>King" and "A Saucer of Loneliness."  ...
>     "A Saucer of Loneliness" was based on the Theodore Sturgeon
>story of the same name and starred Shelley Duvall.  It was
>acceptable, I suppose, but lacked whatever the special touch was
>that made the story so memorable.  Although some short stories have
>translated well to TWILIGHT ZONE episodes, others haven't.  My
>feeling is that comedy translates to the small screen where emotion
>doesn't.  Maybe someone could make Sturgeon's emotion transfer
>well, but David Gerrold, who wrote this teleplay, is not that
>person.  That's not to say Gerrold is a bad scriptwriter, but this
>sort of script is not his forte'.  This gets a 0 on the -4 to +4
>scale.  (And the credits still go by too fast for anyone not a
>graduate of the Evelyn Woods school.)

As an expression of how the episode struck Evelyn, this is an
accurate rating, but I would give it a higher rating.  Having never
read the original to compare with, I had no bias in favor of
Sturgeon's masterful prose over the teleplay.  In my opinion Duvall
portrayed the pits of loneliness with depth and power.  Her reaction
to the saucer's message was beautiful.  It seemed exactly the
reaction of a person who has never known emotional warmth, who is
strangling to death on solitude, suddenly realizing that she is not
alone and that her pain is shared.  If only for that scene, and for
the scene where she writes her messages-in-bottles and casts them
adrift, I would give this episode a +3.  It fails to achieve a +4
only because of the stiffness of some other portrayals.

Hutch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 86 0850-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #337
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 337

Today's Topics:

       Books - Bova & Burroughs & Ellison & Gibson (2 msgs) &
               Kersh & MacAvoy & Norman & Zelazny &
               Footfall & Counter Earths (5 msgs) &
               Monkeys Typing Story (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1986 09:55 PAC
From: Marty Zimmerman  <MARTYZ%IDUI1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Book Search

from James Turner (ARPA:ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA):
>The story is a space opera, concerning a young man who gathers a
>force to topple ancient (but not by default evil) rulers of the
>galaxy and their minions. It is pre-1965...

I think this book may be "Star Conquerors" (?) by Ben Bova.  The
story's told from the viewpoint of Alan Bakerman (loosely translated
from his own language), who was an advisor to Geoffrey
(Something-or-other) - the leader of the TERRAN star fleet.  The
battle was against the MASTERS and their minions, the Saurians
(sp?).  The OTHERS were an ancient race that had previously attacked
humanity.  At the end of the story, one of the MASTERS confirmed
that his race was not the same as the OTHERS - in fact they too had
battled the OTHERS at one time in the past.  Much of this may be
wrong, it is something I read a long time ago.

Marty Zimmerman
University of Idaho
Moscow, Idaho

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 02:21:20 GMT
From: sdsu!dlong@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Long)
Subject: ERB

   Does anybody out there like Edgar Rice Burroughs books?  I've
read the moon, Mars, Venus, and Pellucidar series, but none of the
Tarzan books.

Dean Long
San Diego State Univ.
sdcsvax!sdsu!dlong

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 12:55:34 GMT
From: gouldsd!mjranum@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus the Ranum)
Subject: The Left Handed Gun

   For you Ellisonians in the DC area, there is a lecture (opinion
session ?) by Harlan Ellison on Sat Oct 18, at Georgetown U. For
more information, you can call 1-800-233-4060

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 00:00:24 GMT
From: mapper!ksand@caip.rutgers.edu (ksand)
Subject: CYBERPUNK AND SF

Hi!
I'm looking for some response concerning Computers,
books by Gibson and cyberpunk!

Rgds
Kent Cyber Sandvik
mcvax!enea!mapper!ksand

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 14:24:51 GMT
From: mapper!ksand@caip.rutgers.edu (ksand)
Subject: More about cyberpunk and sf

Hi again!
This time I wonder if the whole computer-sf actually started inside
IAsfM, or was there a similar trend in the 70:s

Kent Sandvik
mcvax!enea!mapper!ksand

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86  9:27:38 EDT
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: Mr Da V Rides Also In...

Another short story with Leonardo da Vinci is one of Gerald Kersh's.
The title is "The Ape and the <something>", or vice versa.  It
explains why the Mona Lisa is smiling peculiarly, BTW.  I think it's
in Kersh's MEN WITHOUT BONES collection.

Gerald Kersh is (was?) a British writer who wrote everything from
strange and quiet grisley horror to tales of the seamier side of
London life -- a cross between Nelsen Algren and Damon Runyon is a
first approximation.  His characters speak with delightful voices;
Kersh has a good, phonetic ear for the British language, and a raft
of experiences that I certainly don't expect to get first-hand.

As you may gather, he's one of my favorite authors.  He's a bit hard
to find these days.  Books I can think of off-hand include:

NIGHT AND THE CITY -- Perhaps his best known.  May have been a movie.
SONG OF THE FLEA   -- I think a semi-sequal to above
SERGEANT NELSON OF THE GUARDS -- One of my favorites.  Situated in
  world war I.  Reminds me a lot of STARSHIP TROOPERS without the
  hardware or the rhetoric, i.e., the characters are footsoldiers.
THE SECRET MASTERS -- arguably sf, re a plot to conquer the world
MEN WITHOUT BONES  - story collection
NIGHTSHADES & DAMNATIONS - "

I'm glad I cruised the used bookstores heavily for Kersh a decade
ago; even the libraries don't stock him for the most part anymore.
But then, they barely have Phillip Wylie's "Crunch & Des"
collections, either.

daniel dern
ddern@ccb.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 16:26:07 GMT
From: tcdmath!jaymin@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: TWISTING THE ROPE by R. A. MacAvoy

>     THE BOOK OF KELLS was a step back toward the over-used--in
>this case, the Celtic.  While I agree that Celtic mythology may
>have a certain appeal for someone named MacAvoy, I personally am
>getting somewhat tired of the current epidemic of Celtic and
>pseudo-Celtic fantasy covering the shelves in the science
>fiction/fantasy sections these days.  Don't get me wrong.  MacAvoy
>does it well, but I question the necessity of doing it at all these
>days.

How do you think the Celts think about it? Where MacAvoy is for
better than most but some of her errors were rather glaring. Really,
30p to get from Greystones to City Centre is a bit off, 2.80 is a
bit more correct.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 17:14:42 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Gor and Prescott

From:   mic!d25001      (Carrington Dixon)
>   Which came first?  The Prescott series began around 1973.  When
> did the first Gor book come out?  Anybody know?

The Gor series started in 1966.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 20:54:51 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Amber (Spoilers)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:

>Corwin had no magic that I know of except the ability to shift
>shadow.  On the other hand, Flora (?), Brand, and possibly Bleys
                             ^Fiona
>had other powers.  Perhaps there *are* ways to use the Pattern to
>cast spells, and Corwin simply didn't know how.

There is a scene in _The_Guns_of_Avalon_ where Corwin is confronted
by a creature from the black circle.  He asks its name, which it
gives (something moderately unpronounceable), along with the threat
"conjure with it and I'll eat your liver."  Corwin proceeds to
conjure with it, giving the creature a hotfoot.  Thereafter it
breaks in, and Corwin kills it.

So apparently, magic is not entirely unknown to the children of
Oberon.  Corwin is apparently not very good at it (mostly for lack
of working at it, I suspect), and uses it in this case only because
he has been threatened -- in effect, dared to.  Corwin doesn't like
*anybody* telling him what to do, even in the most trivial detail --
note also his reaction to Oberon showing up and taking over at the
beginning of _The_Courts_of_Chaos_.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Oct 86 00:46:06 EDT
From: "James B. VanBokkelen" <JBVB%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Niven, Pournelle & waves

I just finished reading _Footfall_ (hardcover purchased remaindered
@ local Waldenbooks), and was struck by what appears to be an error
in its physics (which was also present in _Lucifer's Hammer_).  I
have lived near the ocean all my life, and I fail to see how meteor-
produced seismic waves can behave as they do in the books.

***** Spoiler Warning *****

"...India would be covered north to the mountains.  The Bay of
Bengal would focus the wave again: it might cross Burma as far as
China."

First, waves *must* break when they reach shoaling water; for waves
of this magnitude, this would occur far out on the continental
shelf.  Once a wave has broken, it is no longer an impulse moving
through water, it is actual moving water flowing shoreward.  Lots of
energy gets dissipated in the break, and quickly thereafter in the
turbulent flow conditions.  I would guess at least 25% of the
remaining energy gets reflected back out to sea.

Second, I recall from various reading that larger waves travel
faster.  The top would get blown off anything big in shoaling water,
where its crest steepens.

Third, since the impact was a point, the waves would decay by
inverse square.  I suspect some of the more destructive earthquake
waves of the past were generated by fault slippages which acted more
like a line source, at least for a few hundred miles around.

Fourth, should a wave 1000 feet high, and 4000 feet along its base
come ashore on flat ground, its flow would be very turbulent.  If it
leaves 20 feet of standing (or at least decelerated) water behind it
as it goes, it runs out of water 20 miles inland, regardless of any
other effect.

Anyone with specific knowlege care to comment?

Another thing that bothered me was the unannounced arrival of the
"foot".  The ship itself had been spotted by astronomical
telescopes.  The ship had a fusion drive, and was pushing the
asteroid, and was a mile long all by itself.  Maybe the aliens had
tried to take out the big telescopes, but there are thousands of
8-inch and smaller instruments out there.  Why didn't the
authorities (or even independent-minded, forward-thinking amateurs,
given Pournelle) put a watch on the ship when it left Earth orbit?
Sure, it hid behind the moon, but it couldn't continue to hide once
it set out to meet the asteroid.  Postulating that it somehow got
clear without being observed (drive off once out of the shadow, long
unpowered coast), you'd see it coming back, driving the asteroid.
Even at 7 miles per second, it would take 10 hours falling from the
moon's distance.

This makes three stories by Niven (one short, and the two
collaborations) where some mighty catastrophe is used to remove Asia
from the picture.  I wonder...  Of course, stories in which *we*
were removed from the picture might not sell well...

jbvb@ai.ai.mit.edu
(flames to me - I can't keep up with the current rate of postings)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 86 08:48:49 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Theme Story Request

Just to get away from time travel, could I ask you SF lovers for
some story titles based on this plot device:

  There is another planet in our solar system, sharing the Earth's
  orbit but on the opposite side of the sun

I know of two such

(a) an excruciatingly bad movie by
    (I think) Gerry Anderson

(b) three pretty good books by Paul Capon:

        The Other Side of the Sky
        The Other Side of the Planet
        Down to Earth

    in which the planet is called Antigeos

Any more?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 18:08:29 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request)

>   There is another planet in our solar
>   system, sharing the Earth's orbit but
>   on the opposite side of the sun
> (a) an excruciatingly bad movie by (I think) Gerry Anderson

I think you're thinking of JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN, a
1969 British film starring Roy Thinnes and Herbert Lom which is
neither by Gerry Anderson (as far as I know) nor excruciatingly bad
(though not great either)

> (b) three pretty good books by Paul Capon
>     in which the planet is called Antigeos

Let's not forget the best-known (not necessarily *best*) of all:
        John Norman's "Gor" series!
(Last count was 23 books which I will not list here.  E-mail me if
you want the list.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 19:13:20 GMT
From: tekigm!dand@caip.rutgers.edu (Dan C. Duval)
Subject: Re: Theme Story Request

Another example of "Counter Earth" (another planet opposite the
Earth in the same orbit is (hold your gorge, now, kids) John
Norman's Gor books. If you MUST read one, don't read past the sixth
book, and please don't blame me if you don't like any of them -- I
don't much, either.  It was different when I was a mere adolescent
(ie when I was still severely brain damaged) -- I liked the idea and
was not offended by slavery, social subjugation of women and other
subhumans (Norman's attitude, not mine), and silly stuff like that.
If you can ignore all this stuff, the guy writes a decent adventure
story, somewhat on the order of Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars series
(which the first Gor book, "Tarnsman of Gor", seems to copy almost
point for point in the plot Burroughs' first Mars book.)

Then again, sorry I brought it up. I believe thet Counter Earth was
first postulated during the Golden Age of Greece. I don't know the
titles or authors of any of those stories, but perhaps a quick
search in the library will turn up a 2000 year-old Counter Earth
story.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 04:49:51 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request)

There are two movies that I know of that involve planets on the far
side of the sun.  Neither of the movies makes much sense, one makes
less sense than the other.

In one movie, an astronaut heads in some funky orbit around the sun.
He get's back too soon.  We eventually realize that there is another
planet on the far side of the sun that is exactly the same as ours,
but flipped, right for left.  Astronaut eventually manages to get
launched back into orbit so he can recover his mother craft and
return to where he really belongs.

In the other, a group of astronauts swing around the sun and land on
an earth-like planet.  This earth-like planet is ruled by a
dictatorship.  This one didn't annoy me as much as the previous
one--I don't remember as much about it.  I'm pretty sure that it was
a multi-person team, and that at least one runs counter to the
secret police.

If you want to extend your search for counter-earth's to the comics,
I think that the High Evolutionary character in some of Marvel's
comics runs a counter-earth.  This makes a little more sense, as the
planet is artificial (and might be screened so our probes don't pick
it up).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 21:39:43 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Re: Theme Story Request

On the subject of "Counter-Earths" what about the Mushroom Planet.
Remember?  That kid's book with the little grey-green guys who had a
sulfur deficiency?

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Oct 86 12:27:27 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com>
Subject: story request: monkeys typing
To: denber.wbst@xerox.com

zdenber.wbst@Xerox.COM asks about:
>It's about a scientist who decides to actually perform the "monkies
>and the typewriters" experiment, where according to probability,
>eventually the monkies will, by typing randomly, produce all of the
>world's great works of literature. . . .

My memory tells me you refer to a short story "Inflexible Logic" by
(I think) Russell Maloney.  In it, the monkeys actually started
producing the actual literature from day one.  I saw it in the four
volume James R. Newman collection on mathematics (_World of
Mathematics_?) and in Clifton Fadiman's fine athology _Fantasia
Mathematica_.  I don't know where else you will find it, but it is
pretty well known.

JBL
arpa: levin@bbn.com
uucp: {backbone}!bbncca!levin

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 16:27:05 GMT
From: gaynes.dec.com!wall@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Monkeys typing Story...

There is a story focusing on this idea in the first volume of an
Anthology called Galactic Empires, edited by Brian Aldiss.  I forget
the name of the story, but I believe it was by Mack Reynolds, and
also featured a little bird sharpening its beak on a cubic parsec of
stone...

David F. Wall
Digital Equipment Corporation -- HPSCAD, Marlboro, MA
UUCP: ...!{decvax|decuac}!{boves,gaynes}.dec.com!wall
        or !decvax::{boves,gaynes}::wall
ARPA: wall%{boves,gaynes}.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 86 0927-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #338
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 338

Today's Topics:

         Books - Brin & Clarke (2 msgs) & Dick & MacAvoy &
                 Myers (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Typos (4 msgs) &
                 Monkeys Typing Story & Mushroom Planet (2 msgs) &
                 DaVinci & Printing History & Computer SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 17:17 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Brinn

I read in Upcoming Books that Brin's novel titled "Uplift War" has
been cancelled.  I am real disappointed to hear this.  Has anyone
else heard anything about this?  I would like to know if some other
publisher will pick the novel up, or if this is really just a
postponement rather than complete cancellation.  ANYTHING?

Also, does anyone know when "The Postman" is to be out in paperback?
It was not listed in "Upcoming Books", so I have no idea.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue 7 Oct 86 20:37:32-EDT
From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA>
Subject: new Clarke novel?

The latest offering of SF Book Club includes the book, "The Songs of
Distant Earth", by Arthur C. Clarke.  The blurb says, "The
long-awaited new novel from the best-selling author..."

If this is really a new novel from Clarke, I will surely buy it.  On
the other hand, these folks are known to be, shall we say,
inaccurate in these blurbs.  Does anyone know if this is, in fact,
really a new novel?  I thought I had read all of Clarke's fiction,
though a long time ago.  The plot description looked a bit familiar,
but I'm just not sure.

Art Evans

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 17:58:23 GMT
From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: new Clarke novel?

It's *really* a new novel...

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 18:09:02 GMT
From: GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject: Radio Free Albemuth : by Philip K. Dick

Floating in the grasp of Terra's gravity field, a satellite from the
Great Ones keeps an ever gentle watch on mankind.  Below, certain
chosen ones go about their tasks of destroying the great Police
state that has formed.

You must realize the danger represented in these human inhabiting
Plasmoids.  The Police are COMING.  The alien invasion started two
thousand years ago in a small country by the Mediterranean Sea.
Those shepherds and goat herders were TAKEN over by the GREAT ONE's
minions.  It is not only mere Aliens, horrifyingly enough, but
CHRISTIAN Aliens! They are back again claiming that the Commies and
the Cappies are united in their efforts to create the World Police
State.

I hear a knock at my door. I guess they have found me out.

You'll have to read it on your own...  IT NEEDS YOU!  Philip K.
Dick's Posthumous Novel: RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH

Jeff Ganaposki
(814) 865-3405
BITNET :   GIZ@PSUVM
UUCP:{akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!giz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Oct 86 20:19:31 PDT
From: Heather Stark <heather@Psych.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: McAvoy's new book

I, too, was very impressed by Tea with the Black Dragon, and less
impressed by McAvoy's other works (The Damaino series, and The Book
of Kells).

Unlike E.Leeper, I wasn't disenchanted by TBoK's Celtic setting.
Things Celtic are fine with me.  I agree there's a lot of Celtic
schlock out there, and that makes me suspicious of Celtophilic
books.  But I'm not so jaded that I won't pick up a book and
actually SEE whether or not the writer's style and substance attract
me.

What bugs me about the non-TwtBD books is their sweetness.  Excuse
me, their EXCESSIVE sweetness.  The books seem like children's
books.  Adult unfairness and toughness and spice are filtered
through an opaque gauze of Magic and Love.

Damaino is insipid.  I'd never invite him to lunch.  The switchoff
between the lovers in TBoK is overly symmetrical, predictable, and
easy.

TwtBD, on the other hand, is interesting.  In particular, the feisty
mother in TwtBD is a character to remember.  It's great to see an
older woman in an action type role instead of a Jane Marple one.

Does McAvoy's new book get its calories from sugar-candy or from
good honest curry?

heather
(heather@psych.stanford.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 03:41:59 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Silverlock sequel

Alfred Dunn writes:
>I read Silverlock around '79 and have seen a sequel on the shelf at
>our local bookstore for a couple of years now.  So today I finally
>got it.  _The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter_ is the title.  Anyone
>read it yet?  I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about it
>on the net.  Looking at the first few pages, I see that it was
>copyrighted in 1981, also that Myers Myers was born in 1906.

I started to read _TMFED_ a year ago.  I could not stomach it.  The
basic idea is much the same as in Silverlock, but it is a lot more
exaggerated stylistically.  (Caveat: I am not a great admirer of
Silverlock, so adjust your set accordingly.)  Somewhere towards the
end of the "Noah" sequence, the heavy duty stylistic quirks and the
fact that all the dialogue appears to consist of pronouns without
antecedents led me to decide to give up.  _Creatures of Light and
Darkness_ was a cakewalk by comparison.

On the other hand, _The Harp and the Blade_ is a nice early British
hack and slash novel that is actually a pretty good read.  There's a
bit of magic at the beginning, but it largely serves to stick the
proptagonist firmly into the main story.  So it's not really
sword-and-sorcery; it's more of a politics book.  The style is
clearly Myers, but more restrained than Silverlock (and infinitely
more so than _TMFED_).  It was reprinted in paperback about the same
time that _TMFED_ was published, so it should be findable.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 86 09:21:08 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence Raphael)
Subject: Myers

I don't believe The Harp and the Blade is about CONAN, just about
some guy named Conan. It is a real name, after all....

I rather like The Moon's Fire Eating Daughter, but it is definitely
inferior to Silverlock.

One question: Why didn't Silverlock take that last drink?!?!?!?

Laurence
Name:             Laurence Raphael Brothers
Organization:     Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey
Uucp-Address:     topaz!brothers
Internet-Address: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
Bell-Address:     {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790}
Postal-Address:   BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 09:24:45 PDT (Wednesday)
From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber - Merlin

From iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson):
>Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a.
>Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it.

   One of the things which bothered me in "Blood of Amber" is
Merlin's attitude.  It seemed inconsistent at times.  Here is a guy
who builds his own computer, no small task.  Must have taken months
and months.  So he has some drive, some discipline.  But when taken
to Corwin's pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get
back to class.  And there is no mention of him coming back, say that
night.  He passed up a major chance at getting more power.  He just
never seemed to have gotten around to walking the second pattern.
   Have I missed something?

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 17:33:21 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
>There is a prominent typo that's amused me for a while: The Bluejay
>Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" says "Rouge Queen" right
>on the spine of the book!  Anyone know any other such blatant
>screwups?

In some printings of the paperback edition of _Time Travellers
Strictly Cash_, by Spider Robinson, the blurb page inside the front
cover reads something like this:

                           TIIME
                         TRAVELERS
                       STRICTLY CASH

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 00:19:53 GMT
From: dciem!msb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

> Anyone know any other such blatant screwups?

Well, my copy of Jerry Pournelle's essay collection "A Step Farther
Out" has the author's name as "Pournell" on the spine of the dust
jacket...

I have 2 paperback copies of Bill Pronzini's anthology "Midnight
Specials", a a collection of fantasy and similar type stories about
trains.  One copy is missing the first "signature" of 32 pages, and
the other copy is missing the last signature.  They were the last 2
copies in the store, so, at my suggestion, they sold me both for the
price of one...  However, this doesn't exactly fall under
proofreading.

And, leaving sf/fantasy altogether, I have a paperback copy of
Elizabeth Peters's thriller "The Night of Four Hundred Rabbits"; or,
at least, that's what it's called on the front cover, spine, and
title page.  However, at the top of every single page of the text,
the title is "The Night of *the* Four Hundred Rabbits"...

This is too easy, I think.   Let's look for WORSE errors.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 16:40:02 GMT
From: csustan!smdev@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller)
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

Ok...I'm surprised that this didn't spring up right away, anyway:

   Larry Niven, _Ringworld_, the first (paperback) edition.  Louis
Wu is traveling around the world to avoid the "midnight line" (it's
his 200th birthday) and Niven has him going the wrong way...
   Niven has himself admitted to the error.  It was corrected in
later editions, so you have to have the _first_ edition to see it.

Scott Hazen Mueller
City of Turlock
901 South Walnut Avenue
Turlock, CA 95380
lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev
work:  (209) 668-5590 -or- 5628
home:  (209) 527-1203

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 22:13:32 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

>There is a prominent typo that's amused me for a while: The Bluejay
>Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" says "Rouge Queen" right
>on the spine of the book!  Anyone know any other such blatant
>screwups?

Yes.  The Bluejay Books edition of de Camp's "Rogue Queen" misspells
his name also!  I forget if it's on the spine or the front cover,
though.  I think they also misspell "Rogue" as "Roque" somewhere,
though I could be wrong.  Check the spine, the cover, and the title
page.

Also, Bluejay mispelled Asimov's name on the title page of SHERLOCK
HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE.  MASTERS OF SCIENCE FICTION
(published by Belmont Books) also misspelled Asimov's name on the
spine.  At least one Fritz Leiber book (I think it was A PAIL OF
AIR, but I'm not going to dig through the boxes to find out)
misspelled his name on the spine.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 10:32 EDT
From: denber.wbst@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: story request: monkeys typing
To: levin@cc2.bbn.com

Thanks - not that well-known, apparently - I only got one other
reply on this one.  You're exactly right - I went down to the public
library and found Fantasia Mathematica (they had to dig it up from
the stacks in the basement).  FM also contains a related story, "The
Universal Library" by Willy Ley.  Anyway, the monkeys indeed started
right up with real books (they were *chimpanzees*, actually).  I had
also forgotten how gruesome the ending was -

                    ***   SPOILER  FOLLOWS  ***

The math professor shoots all six chimps, plus the guy who started
the experiment.  And then *he* grabs the gun and in his dying gasp,
shoots the professor - so they *all* end up dead.  I needed the
story for an essay for my probability class (I got a 10 on it).

Michel

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 16:09:23 GMT
From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz)
Subject: Re: Theme Story Request

c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Kathy Li) writes:
> On the subject of "Counter-Earths" what about the Mushroom Planet.
> Remember?  That kid's book with the little grey-green guys who had
> a sulfur deficiency?

There were four that I was familiar with.  The titles I remember
are:

Journey To The Mushroom Planet
Stowaway To The Muchroom Planet
A Mystery For Mr. Bass
(Can't remember the fourth.)

Recently (through a stroke of serendipity), I was lucky enough to
buy two of the books I'd read as a child from my hometown library's
sale table.

These books have everything a kid could want.  Home-built
spaceships, alien mentors, visits from "dead" Mycetians, powers vast
enough to destroy planets, mysteries, spying, perils, secret
inventions, the works!

Mike Huybensz
...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 17:14:17 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com
Subject: Re: Theme Story Request

c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Kathy Li) writes:
>On the subject of "Counter-Earths" what about the Mushroom Planet.
>Remember?  That kid's book with the little grey-green guys who had
>a sulfur deficiency?

Sorry, rm, but the Mushroom Planet was no counter-earth, it was an
undiscovered moon of earth, in orbit much farther out than Luna,
invisible from Earth due to the fact that it reflected in the
infra-green.  It was second of the earth's three moons to be
discovered (the third was a tiny asteroid which had managed to get
into orbit and was too small to be noticed).

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 08 Oct 86 09:40:29 PDT (Wed)
From: Michael Mattock <mattock%tp3@rand-unix.ARPA>
Subject: DaVinci

>DaVinci figured in a short story I read some 15+ years ago.  I
>can't remember the author (maybe Poul Anderson ?) and it was a
>foreign edition. I shut up in the hope that someone would come up
>with a better reference, but no one did, so ...

This story appeared in one of G. Conklin's collections back in the
early 60's.  The collection had a title something like "13 Great
Stories of Science Fiction".

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 20:09:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Printing History Query

From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
>a) Using the misnomer "a substantially different version" instead
>of the more accurate "an essentially identical version".  (An odd
>variation of this was Saberhagen's "The Golden People", which was
>reissued last year.  Although it was about half again as long as
>the original version, ...

  50% new material certainly sounds "substantially different" to me.

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 03:57:40 GMT
From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: More about cyberpunk and sf

ksand@mapper.UUCP (ksand) writes:
> This time I wonder if the whole computer-sf actually started
> inside IAsfM, or was there a similar trend in the 70:s

I may be missing something, but I haven't seen any previous
discussion recently.

From the 70's, there were things like The Shockwave Rider by John
Brunner, Michelmas by Alfred Bester, The Adolescence of P1 by Thomas
Ryan.

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967
Telephone: (612) 721-8800
USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S
        Mpls, MN 55406

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 86 1003-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #339
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 339

Today's Topics:

        ******Special Issue - Canonical SF Music List ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1986 23:46:06 PDT
Subject: Canonical SF Music List
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

Here's the list as compiled from last year's SF-L.

The Canonical SF Music List

Compiled by:
Alan Greig, Brian Ritchie, Charlie Martin, Chisholm, Dan Duval,
Daniel Dern, Dave Fiedler, Dave Rosik, Doug Alan, Ellen Keyne
Seebacher, Freeman, Gareth Husk, Henry Vogel, Jay, Jeff Rogers,
Jessie, Jim Sullivan, John Francini, John Romkey, Jonathan D.
Trudel, Ken Fricklas, Lewis Barnett, Lionel, Marcus Hall, Mark
Schlagenhauf, Michael Caplinger, Mijjil, Miles Bader, Paul Anderson,
Paul S. R., Peter Alfke, Steve Herring, Steve Lionel, Steve Tynor,
Stuart, Terry Poot, Vlach, William Ingogly, Tom Galloway

Constructed from back issues of SF-Lovers by Nicholas Simicich,
David Adler, Rich Kulawiec, and Tom Galloway.

AC/DC:
Maximum Overdrive Soundtrack with big cut being Who Made Who

Al Stewart:
The Sirens of Titan (Vonnegut)

Alan Parsons Project:
I Robot from Asimov stories.

Alice Cooper:
On School's Out, the words Klattu Barrada Nicto occur in background
vocals near the end of My Stars.

Ambrosia:
Time Waits for No One and Nice, Nice, Very Nice both on Ambrosia.
The latter is the 53rd Calypso of Bokonon from Vonnegut's Cat's
Cradle. The album also has a rendition of Jabberwocky

Amon Duul II:
Much sf-oriented material.  German band.

The Android Sisters:
Album Songs of Electronic Despair

Anvil:
Mothra

Aphrodite's Child:
The album 666 is the veritable armageddon waltz. Vangelis was in
this band back then.

B-52s:
Planet Claire

Bedford, David:
Star's End

Pat Benetar:
My Clone Sleeps Alone

Black Sabbath:
Sort of.  Tends to black magic et. al.  Try Technical Ecstasy for
beginners, Paranoid for advanced, Black Sabbath (1st LP) for
demented.

Blue Oyster Cult:
Black Blade on E.T. Live is another tune done with Moorcock.  See
also Veteran of the Psychic Wars, E.T.I., The Subhuman, and
Cultasauros Erectus.

Boggles:
I Love You, Miss Robot

David Bowie:
Space Oddity (most emphatically NOT Major Tom) discusses eerie
experiences in orbit. Also has a film, The Man who Fell to Earth.
Ashes to Ashes, Starman, and Memory fo a Free Festival

The Byrds:
Hey Mr. Spaceman from the Fifth Dimension album, Space Odyssey from
Notorious Byrd Brothers is a retelling of Clarke's The Sentinel.

Captain Beyond:
Astral Lady, Voyagers From Distant Planets, etc.

Caravan:
Cthulhu from For Girls Who Grow Plump in the Night

Wendy Carlos:
The albums Digital Moonscapes and Tron soundtrack

Lol Creme/Kevin Godley:
Consequences is an ecological parable.

Crosby, Stills, & Nash:
Wooden Ships

Darkstar:
The soundtrack contains Benson, Arizona

Deep Purple:
Occasional forays into SF.  Space Truckin', The Mule (Asimov's
Foundation?)

Eagles:
Journey of the Sorcerer from One of these Nights was used in The
Hitchhiker's Guide radio series.

ELO:
Mission A World Record on A New World Record.  The entire album Time
is a science fiction story about a man from 1981 who is taken into
the 21st century, and all the aspects of life there.

A summary of the album:

Prologue - brief sound effects of swishing, roaring, etc to a
background of cathedral-like music, sounding much like waking up in
a new dimension or something, while an electronic voice tells of a
message from another time.

Twilight - song from someone who, after disorientation (twilight,
see Prologue) finds himself in the future. The verses suggest he was
brought there.

Yours Truly, 2095 - letter from someone far away from his love,
telling of a computer he fell in love with because it was modeled
after her, and its cold reactions.

Ticket To The Moon - our hero ain't lucky in love and tries escaping
to a new life elsewhere; this song is his confused, regretful
farewell.

The Way Life's Meant To Be - our hero's amusement and grieving over
how the world he knew in 1981 had turned out a century later
(culture shock?) after getting to know the place.

Another Heart Breaks - this is a mytic, rhythmic instrumental.

Rain Is Falling - Basically about wet weather, although some mention
again of our hero missing his lost love, and the 21st century people
offering him a way back.

From The End Of The World - Seems to be about how hard it is for our
hero to reach his distant love, and it's starting to get to him.

The Lights Go Down - Not a sf song, more about how he's got to get
back to his love in 1981. The music isn't spacey, so I suspect this
is supposed to be a song he wrote while longing for her.

Here Is The News - a humor song on the turbulent world of 2095. A
few bad puns.

21St Century Man - song about how a man from 1981, for all his
clever adaptions, simply isn't cut out for life in the 21st century
and has to return and what he has to tell eveyone when he gets back.

Hold On Tight (The Coffee Song) - this was more designed for
commercial release (it was their main release from the album and
became the theme song for the Coffee Achievers commercials), but
carries the theme that, in the future world, or even out of it,
really anything is possible if you keep faith.

Epilogue - first a brief romanticized rendition of 21st Century Man
(as if a farewell reception), into which fade choruses of the word
Time, into which fade the same mystic sound effects of the Prologue
(slipping between dimensions) into which a pattering note sequence
repeats louder and louder and louder and louder and silence all at
once, snapping the listener back into reality.

Emerson, Lake, & Palmer:
Karn Evil 9 from Brain Salad Surgery.  See also Tarkus.

Brian Eno:
The albums Apollo and On Land.

Eurythmics:
Soundtrack to the movie 1984.

FM:
A Canadian band, the album Black Noise is entirely SF. The song
Rocket Roll on Surveillance is about SF Rock.

Flanders & Swann:
The Road Goes Ever On, settings of Tolkein songs.

Flash Fearless and the Zorg Women, parts 5&6:
Another weird IGTB type collaboration album from the late 70's with
some well-known rockers on it.

Fleetwood Mac:
The Green Manalishi with the Two-Pronged Crown (Judas Priest did an
eminently forgettable version) Rhiannon about a Welsh witch from
Fleetwood Mac.

The Flock:
Dinosaur Swamps

Genesis:
Watcher of the Skies, One for the Vine from Wind and Wuthering about
time travel, perhaps The Return of the Giant Hogweed, The Lamb Lies
Down on Broadway, A Trick of the Tail, and Get 'em Out by Friday.

Dave Greenslade:
The Pentateuch

Steve Hackett:
Narnia from his only album to date. He was once lead guitar with
Genesis.

Hansson, Bo:
Music inspired by The Lord of the Rings

Hawkwind:
The all-time consensus champion for sf-oriented rock. *Some* of
their albums are: Hall of the Mountain Grill, In Search of Space,
Quark, Strangeness, and Charm, Space Ritual--Alive in Liverpool &
London, Warrior on the Edge of Time, X in Search of Space, Doremi
Fasol Latido, Astounding Sounds, Amazing Music, PXR5, 25 Years On,
Levitation, Sonic Attack, Church of the Hawkwind, and Choose Your
Masks. Michael Moorcock, a member of the group, writes fantasy-sf,
including Time of the Hawklords, a fantasy about the band saving the
world.  He co-wrote Veteran of the Psychic Wars, from the soundtrack
of Heavy Metal.  He also released a solo album late in the 70's.

Uriah Heep:
The albums Demons and Wizards and The Magician's Birthday.

Hendrix, Jimi:
Delta Blues except that the delta is on Mars. See 1983...A Merman I
Should Turn to Be, Hey Baby, and Third Stone from the Sun, UFO.

L. Ron Hubbard:
Battlefield Earth Soundtrack album

IGTB:
Stands for Inter-Galactic Touring Band; Mish-mash album put out in
late 70's with all sorts of people on it, purporting to be a group
on galactic tour.

Jean Micahel Jarre:
The albums Magnetic Fields, Equinoxe, Zoo Look Oxygene, and
Rendezvous

Jefferson Airplane/Starship:
Blows Against the Empire album, Have you seen the Saucers? from
Thirty Seconds Over Winterland.  Also did CSN&Y's Wooden Ships
(post-nuclear holocaust), Crown of Creation from Wyndham's Re-Birth.

Elton John:
Rocket Man (may be based on Ray Bradbury story of the same name in
Illustrated Man)

Judas Priest:
The Green Manalishi with the Two Pronged Crown

Kansas:
Lots of stuff.  See Kansas, Song For America, and Leftoverture for
details.  Also Masque.

King Crimson:
Most anything from either the Lizard or In the Court of the Crimson
King albums.  Tendency towards fantasy.

Kinks:
I Wish I Could Fly (Like Superman).

Klattu:
Best known for Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft, and Little
Neutrino.  Albums: Klattu, Hope, The Carpenters also recorded
Calling Occupants...  Apparently the song was conceived as prayer to
be recited all over the globe to induce aliens to visit.

Kraftwerk:
Sf-themes occasionally.  Certainly sounds sf-ish. Albums include
Autobahn, Radioactivity, Man Machine, Computerworld, and
Trans-Europe Express.

Jack Lancaster/Robin Lumley:
Marscape

Led Zeppelin:
No Quarter from Houses of the Holy is rather eerie, but no one is
quite sure what it's about. The Battle of Evermore, from Led Zep IV
discusses Ringwraiths.  Also see Ramble On on Led Zep I for mention
of Mordor and Gollum.  See also Misty Mountain Hop on Led Zep IV.
Some speculation that Stairway to Heaven is about Saruman's journey
to the west, but nobody seems to be sure. Also Kashmir

Tom Lehrer:
We'll All Go Together When We Go, So Long Mom, We're Off to Drop the
Bomb, The Elements.

H.P. Lovecraft:
one album...contains At the Mountains of Madness. Estimates place
them from late 60's to late 70's.

MC-5:
On Kick Out the Jams, Rocket Reducer or Starship

Magma:
Ihedits, Udu Wudu...sort of cross between German language research
and H.P.  Lovecraft.  Tried to invent their own subculture.

David Matthews:
Dune

Paul McCartney & Wings:
The album Venus and Mars, which includes Magneto and the Titanium
Man (comics).

Metallica:
Kthulu [sic] on Ride the Lightning.

Moody Blues:
To Our Children's Children's Children.

NRBQ:
Rocket 9.

Nektar:
Remember the Future

Pink Floyd:
Of course.  Set the Controls for the Heart of The Sun & Astronomy
Domine, (Ummagumma) are fairly representative.  Much of their
instrumental music has an sf/fantasy feel to it.  See also Piper at
the Gates of Dawn. Also Saucerful of Secrets and Welcome to the
Machine, the latter from the Wish You Were Here album. Some
speculation that Set The Controls... may have influenced Douglas
Adams' writing about the rock group Disaster Area.

Planet P:
Albums: Planet P and Pink World.  Now known as Planet P Project.

Platinum Bond:
Album Alien Shores

The Police:
Demolition Man, Walking in Your Footsteps, Invisible Sun.

Jean-Luc Ponty:
Wandering on the Milky Way from Imaginary Voyage

Queen:
Thirty-Nine, from A Night at the Opera, discusses the problems of
relatavistic travel. Also Machine World from The Works. Other albums
include the Flash Gordon Soundtrack and Fun In Space.

Ramases:
Space Hymns, including great fold-out cover.

Ramatam:
In April Came the Dawning of the Red Suns

Lou Reed:
Red Joystick and Down at the Arcade

Rolling Stones:
Wrote the ultimate road song for astronauts, 2000 Light Years From
Home, from Their Satanic Majesties' Request.

Uli John Roth:
Electric Sun

Rush:
In 2112, the protagonist discovers an ancient guitar and winds up
battling the dictatorial priesthood.  Red Barchetta on Moving
Pictures is similar, except the guitar is replaced by a car. See
also Cygnus X-1 (thought to be a black hole), Rivendell (Tolkien
reference), The Necromancer. See also The Body Electric and Red
Sector A from Grace Under Pressure

Scorpions:
Robot Man on In Trance.

Schilling, Peter:
Major Tom (Coming Home); perhaps a sequel to Bowie's Space Oddity?

Sensational Alex Harvey Band:
See The Tale of The Giant Stone-Eater from Tomorrow Belongs to Me.

Seventh Wave:
Things to Come

Shadowfax:
Much sf/fantasy material.

Spirit:
Future Games has interspersed fragments of old Star Trek episodes
between tunes.

Starcastle:
A Yes clone.  First album has a nice piece, Lady of the Lake.

Cat Stevens:
Freezing Steel from Catch Bull at Four album.

Al Stewart:
The Sirens of Titan

Styx:
Usually has one sf-ish piece on each album.  All of Mr. Roboto is a
fable.  See also Man of Miracles and Come Sail Away, the latter from
The Grand Illusion.  There is some speculation that Lords of the
Ring on Pieces of Eight is Tolkein-derived.

Supertramp:
The album Brother Where You Bound.

Tangerine Dream:
The album Alpha Centauri

Billy Thorpe:
Children of the Sun

Toni K:
Mars Needs Women from La Bomba.

Tubes:
Attack of the Fifty Foot Woman, on The Completion Backward
Principle.

Jethro Tull:
The album A.

Uriah Heep:
The Magician's Birthday, and Demons and Wizards.

Utopia:
Winston Smith Takes It on the Jaw from Oblivion. (Orwell's 1984).
Possibly Adventures in Utopia.

Van der Graff Generator:
Pioneers Over c (c refers here to the speed of light)

Rick Wakeman:
The album Journey to the Center of the Earth.

Jeff Wayne:
War of the Worlds.  H.G. Wells' story with Richard Burton doing
narration. Has single, Forever Autumn

Weird Al Yankovic:
Yoda (To the tune of the Kinks' Lola).

Yes:
Much sf-oriented work.  Try Astral Traveller from Yesterdays,
Starship Trooper (Heinlein?), The Gates of Delirium. See also Jon
Anderson's Olias of Sunhillow.

Neal Young:
Ride my Llama from Rust Never Sleeps

Zager & Evans:
In the Year 2525.  Dated but cute.  Was #1 when Armstrong walked on
the moon.

Zappa/Mothers:
From Roxy and Elsewhere Cheapness, the story of a grade Z monster.
Other stuff.

Warren Zevon:
The songs Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner and Werewolves of
London

Thus Sprach Zarathustra:
2001 theme.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Oct 86 0811-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #340
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 10 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 340

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 86 15:08:29 GMT
From: csun!aeusesef@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Aliens, past and present

   The aliens do not have to weigh several tons.  It seems to me
that they have an exoskeleton, which should then be the heaviest
part of their bodies.  Since they would not have internal skeletons,
that could not add to their weight, and since the exoskeleton would
not weigh several tons, the aliens would not either.  But it must be
incredibly thick and strong, you scream!  No, it need not be.  The
main purpose of an exoskeleton, besides keeping organs in, is to
prevent damage to the main body.  The exoskeleton of insects is very
strong, relatively speaking, since they need to be protected.  The
aliens, however, can regenerate entire limbs in a matter of hours (I
do not know if it was shown in the original movie, but in the book
the alien lost a leg and, about three hours later, had it back).

   Also a few entries back (I don't know, OK?)  someone commented on
the aliens possibly going through more than one form of life.  This
is not as ridiculous as it seems.  Even here, on Earth, there are
species of life that do just that, in particular the jellyfish.  One
jellyfish goes through life, having its offspring.  Those offspring
then go on to become polyps (I may have my terminology wrong, but
the basic idea is correct).

   Now, these aliens are infinitely more capable of survival than a
mere jellyfish, and therefore, go through a stage of life where they
can be dormant for years, possibly even centuries (remember the
first alien?).

   But, here is an interesting thought: only the queen can have the
'urns'.  Remember back to the original movie, when the alien captures
Dallas?  He was impregnated, but there was no urn.  So, all aliens
can have children, but only the queen can produce massive amounts of
babies (?)  continuously, and which can lie dormant for a very long
time.

   Incidently, I don't think the aliens would have a stage in which
they would build starships.  Rather, my impression was that they
were, to the aliens who built the derelict, rather like rats are to
us, and, after the ship crashed, merely went rampant (horrible
thought: what if they were *pets*?).  I could be wrong, however.

   Now, did anyone notice that the aliens lost a thumb between
movies?  (Or books and movie?)

Sean Fagan
aeusesef@csun.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 Oct 86 10:11:59-CDT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Bishop giving back pistol: another idea

Most people seem to be saying that Bishop gave back the pistol
because he figured the aliens wouldn't attack him since he didn't
"smell alive" so to speak and so would not be targetted as host
material, nor would he be recognized as a threat if he was unarmed.
(I'm not sure I buy the latter notion, especially if the aliens are
regarded as intelligent.)

But when I saw that scene, I interpreted it as meaning Bishop was in
a fatalistic "do or die" frame of mind, suggesting that he figured
if he ran into aliens while in that long shaft, he was gonna get
slaughtered whether he had a pistol or not, so why burden himself
with a useless clumsy piece of equipment...  I know *I* wouldn't
feel much safer against the aliens if I had a lousy pistol...

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 86 18:45:49 EDT
From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Unjustified Aliens Complaints (actually Transit Times)

From: m128abo@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Michael Ellis)
>If GR permits such things, the truly cosmic traveller might wish to
>never stop accelerating, and, by gulping up ever larger quantities
>of stellar material, ultimately develop a voracious appetite for
>galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so forth..  Perhaps one could
>thus waste the entire universe, thereby participating as an active
>agent in the ultimate apocolypse, assuming a closed cosmology.

Anybody interested in a story that deals with this topic should read
_TAU_ZERO_ by Poul Anderson (I think?).  This book is very different
from most of Andersons work.  I read it 5-10 years ago and really
enjoyed it.

Michael Laufer
mlaufer@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Oct 86  16:48 EDT
From: NWSGC%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Aliens

This is about the biological development of the aliens.  From my
point of view, these things are not evolved.  They are created.
These things are the ultimate in biological warfare.  The egg to
host routine is great.  A member of your team is attacked by
something you don't understand, still they survive.  You bring them
home.  They seem to recover and are okay until...boom something pops
out of their chest.  If you made it back to your home planet, before
this occurs, and each thing has the potential to become a queen
creep, look out.  Imagine one of them loose in New York City.  It
would be damn difficult to find much less kill.

Frankly I can't imagine an evolutionary process that would lead to
these things.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 86 23:02:13 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: Bishop giving back pistol: a third idea

From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
>Most people seem to be saying that Bishop gave back the pistol
>because he figured the aliens wouldn't attack him since he didn't
>"smell alive"
> [...]  But when I saw that scene, I interpreted it as meaning
>Bishop was in a fatalistic "do or die" frame of mind, suggesting
>that he figured if he ran into aliens while in that long shaft, he
>was gonna get slaughtered whether he had a pistol or not, so why
>burden himself

Personally, I still would rather think that Bishop was suffering
from dual-valued programming -- that he should be a good Marine, BUT
that he should also try to get a live Alien for the Company.  If
he's counterprogrammed against killing Aliens, then he won't want
the pistol, since Being a Good Marine would involve killing Aliens
where possible [to protect his fellow Marines].

   By going unarmed he can:
1. not have to worry about killing any Aliens, and
2. can help his buddy Marines by bringing in the second lander.

Either that, or he figures he's safer than they are and they should
keep all the weapons they can.

Has anyone who has read the book shed any light on this point?

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 17:42:34 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol?

From:   ritcv!spw2562   (Steve Wall)
> From what I read in the book (saw the movie, too), the aliens
> hunted mainly by scent.  Since Bishop was a synthetic, he would
> not attract the aliens to him, and would not need to defend
> himself against them.  As a matter of fact, in the book, an alien
> attacks bishop once, because it sees him moving, but then turns
> and leaves him alone.  Bishop conjectures that this is because he
> has no biological scent for the aliens to track.  That would
> explain why he didn't take the pistol.

What you described from the book is true, but it doesn't explain why
Bishop didn't take the pistol. That aforementioned attack didn't
take place until *after* Bishop left Operations for the uplink
tower,and thus after he refused the pistol. So he didn't know when
he refused the pistol that he was immune from attack.  Why did he
say, "Believe me, I'd prefer not to go. I may be synthetic, but I'm
not stupid," if he knew that he was safe from attack?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 86 21:26:13 GMT
From: cpro!asgard@caip.rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner)
Subject: Re: Bishop giving back pistol: a third idea

benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes:
> Personally, I still would rather think that Bishop was suffering
> from dual-valued programming -- that he should be a good Marine,
> BUT that he should also try to get a live Alien for the Company.

I thought that the first Android on the Nostramo was a Company agent
only.  I could not determine whether Bishop was also used by the
Company.  My recollection is that all Marine companies included an
overt Android as part of their complement.  Therefore Bishop should
have been programmed to be the Good Marine only.  It made sense,
since the first movie included a scene (if I remember correctly)
where the Company Android did a dissection of the (embryonic?)
parisite carrier and could not locate sensory organs to speak of.

> Has anyone who has read the book shed any light on this point?

I too would be interested as I have not read the book either.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 86 19:28:52 GMT
From: louis!mike@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Woods)
Subject: Re: Why Bishop gave the pistol back

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>Why would the alien wipe out a robot?  Certainly not to eat or to
>raise one of those things with.  I think there's a limit to what
>kind of hosts it can use, and that's gotta be out-of-bounds.

Didn't stop the queen ripping Bishop to pieces!

>Besides, it would just get in the way while he was crawling down
>the pipe.

I would guess this is the closest. If you designed a robot which
wasn't allowed to harm humans would you teach it how to use a gun?
When Bishop handed the pistol to Ripley I gained the impression he
just didn't like guns (a bit like Dr. Who!).

Mike Woods.
UK JANET:mike@uk.ac.rl.vd
UUCP:    ...!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!mike

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 19:49:46 GMT
From: c160-aw@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Christian Wiedmann)
Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol?

Couldn't it also be because the androids basically are nonviolent?
In the movie I didn't see Bishop actually do any combat. If androids
at that time really were programmed with Asimov's law, this would
seem to reinforce pacifistic tendencies.

Christian

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 15:35:39 GMT
From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brentrock of Hyperborea)
Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol?

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>What you described from the book is true, but it doesn't explain
>why Bishop didn't take the pistol. That aforementioned attack
>didn't take place until *after* Bishop left Operations for the
>uplink tower,and thus after he refused the pistol. So he didn't
>know when he refused the pistol that he was immune from attack.
>Why did he say, "Believe me, I'd prefer not to go. I may be
>synthetic, but I'm not stupid," if he knew that he was safe from
>attack?

   Maybe he had a suspicion that the aliens wouldn't be interested
in him, but, being "not stupid," he would have preferred not to take
the chance, since he was probably programmed to preserve his own
existence (to some degree or other--third law?).  I know that I
wouldn't want to go into a (even only potentially) dangerous
environment like that, but I have inconvenient things like an
instinct of self-preservation (you could say I'm programmed to
preserve myself; third law of humanics?).  Also, if I *was* going
into an environment like that and somebody handed me a pistol, my
reaction would be something like, "This?  Against those things?  Are
you kidding?  Gimme a bazooka!"

Brent Woods
USENET:   {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc!ahh
ARPANET:  woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM
PHONE:  (317) 495-2011
USNAIL:   Brent Woods
          Box 1004 Cary
          West Lafayette, IN  47906

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 21:22:00 GMT
From: valid!gelfand@caip.rutgers.edu (Brooks Gelfand)
Subject: Explosive Projectiles

> Anyway, when the Marines first mentioned that they carried
> explosive- tipped, armor-piercing rounds in their weapons, I was
> delighted.  Nothing better to use on an exoskeletoned beast than
> something that would 1. penetrate that armor and 2. promptly blow
> up.  Like putting an M-80 or three inside a pumpkin -- kablooey.
> Much better than, say, a lead slug or lead pellets.

Not necessarily. My comments are of a general nature and do not
refer only to the movie.

Let's consider an exoskeletoned beast to be similar to a tank -
armor on the outside soft vurnerable parts on the inside.

Anti-tank projectiles come in three main types.

Penetrateors such as APDS (Armor Piercing Disposable Sabot) which is
nothing more than a tungsten-carbide chisel fired at approximately
6000 feet/second. When it hits, it punches a hole in the armor. Then
it and the armor splinters bounce around on the inside until the
come to rest in the soft vulnerable parts (the crew) killing them
all.

Rounds such as the "bazooka" and other rocket projectiles that use
heat to burn through the armor. They breach the armor by melting it
then spatter hot metal throughout the crew compartment killing the
crew.  They may also cause detonation of the ammunition and fuel
carried by the target.

Rounds such as HEP-T that coat the armor on the outside, detonate,
set up vibrations in the armor causing it to splinter. The splinters
then kill the crew.

The problem with armor piercing round that are also explosive are
two fold. The detonator must be robust enough to survive penetrating
the armor yet quick enough to detonate while the projectile is still
in the target. To complicate matters the target may be located from
several meters to several HUNDRED meters from the muzzle. At close
range we don't want the projectile to pass through the target and
then detonate; at distance we don't want the projectile to detonate
before it has penetrated the target.  Examples of these two problems
can be seen in certain events of World War II.  In North Africa when
the German 88mm gun was fired at lightly armored British tanks at
close range the armor piercing high explosive shell would sometimes
pass completely through the tank and then detonate.  Of course the
tank still had two 88mm holes in it (:-. An example of detonators
not robust enough were American torpedoes.  They were fast, and
would penetrate the sides of ships. However, when they hit, the fuze
was sometimes destroyed by the impact. This resulted in a hole in
the side of the ship, but no explosion

Both of these events are unsatisfactory and will, according to
Murphy, occur at the worst possible moment.

Last we come to the safeties on the fuse. The American 40mm grenade
has two safeties, a set back and a rotation counter. The set back is
activated by the acceleration when the round is fired; the rotation
counter insures that the shell will not detonate closer than 30 feet
from the firer. This would be minimum for any explosive projectile.
After all, you wouldn't want to throw yourself flat on the ground to
avoid enemy fire only to be blowen up by you own basic load of
ammunition. That would add insult to injury.  This is a lot of
complicated and expensive machinery to add to a rifle bullet.

For an armor (or exoskeleton) defeating anti-personnel (anti-bug)
round, I would prefer a high velocity, heavy (to retain velocity)
projectile capable of piercing the armor which would upset (so it
would not exit) and bounce around inside destroying the soft
vulnerable parts.  This would be a jacketed lead (for weight)
projectile with a penetrator core. Voila no moving parts, highly
reliable, very effective, and cheap.

Brooks Gelfand

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Oct 86 0824-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #341
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 10 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 341

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1986  13:08 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: michael%maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Michael Johnson)
Subject: Amber (Zelazney)

   Did you ever read Jack of Shadows?  Jack is inside a jewel hung
about the neck of the Lord of the Bats, who is in the jewel with
Jack, giving an infinite recursion.

   Also, I wouldn't be too sure that Corwin can't shape-shift by
this point.  After all, when did Oberon first appear in the first
set of Amber books?  When did we find that out...  Also, remember
Merlin's comments in Trumps: first, that walking the Logrus can
drive you temporarily insane, and second, much later (or earlier),
that Corwin was rumoured to be loony when he left the Courts of
Chaos.  Coincidence?
   Final point.  Remember what it means, at least according to
Dworkin, when you inscribe a Pattern?  You become it, it becomes
you.  Your injuries are its injuries, its injuries are yours, but
you can't be hurt unless it is first, and it can't be hurt unless
you are first, etc.  Of course, Dworkin made a slight
miscalculation, in that the blood of his descendants could also hurt
his Pattern, but...Anyway, considering all that, what does Corwin's
having created a Pattern REALLY mean?  Is he now invulnerable...?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1986  12:58 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: loral!dml@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

   As a matter of fact, in Blood of Amber, Fiona tells Merlin that
so far no one has been able to so much as touch Corwin's pattern.
He tries it, and claims to be unsuccessful, but later admits, to the
reader, that he could reach it but didn't want to give that away.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 86 17:25:35 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: nitpicking Amber question

>The link holds through at least eight generations of lineal descent
>(Dara was Benedict's great-great- granddaughter) but it's not clear
>if it holds for other relationships.

I recently reread the first series (all five books in two sittings)
and seem to recall that Dara merely posed as Benedict's daughter to
get Corwin into trouble (and herself into a different kind of
trouble...).  Have I forgotten this being turned around again later?
Also, does Dara actually walk the Pattern (gaining general
shadow-walking ability), or merely pass through Shadow on the Black
Road?

And a trivia question: Where does the name Ganelon originate?
There's one derivation that's almost certain given what we know
about the Ganelon that Corwin knows....

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 22:53:36 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: History of the Universe up to _Blood of Amber_  (Zelanzy)

>The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the
>Universe under the effect of the Pattern.  As they get closer and
>closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift
>Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by
>themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes
>employed.
>
>As you suggest below, we readers are left to figure somethings out
>by ourselves.  I suggest that one of them is that the Lords of
>Chaos can move through these changing shadows very easily, but find
>it very difficult or impossible to move through the Shadows of
>Amber.  This is because their equivalent to Amber's Pattern is a
>constantly changing thing.

This seems plausible.  Note that the black road not only enables the
forces of Chaos to attack Amber, but also enables the forces of
Amber to attack chaos.

An interesting sidelight is that the words of Eric's dying curse are
not reported, just that they were directed against the enemies of
Amber.  It is not implausible that that curse helped/enabled the
Amberites to turn the road to their own ends.

>> Second question.  Dworkin and Oberon are shape-shifters, and
>> apparently anyone from the Courts also have this talent.  Why
>> then don't any of the children of Oberon have this ability?  Does
>> walking the pattern do gene damage? :-)
>
>I seem to recall that Dworkin and/or Oberon told Corwin that he too
>could do it, but that he had just never really tried hard enough.

Not exactly.  It is suggested that he might have the ability, but
not stated outright.  However, looking at the evidence instead of
the statements of the characters, I note that no one appears with
shapeshifting ability who did not grow up at the Courts of Chaos.
Thus it seems that this ability is related to environment rather
than to heredity.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 23:03:12 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: 'blood of amber' SPOILERS!

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>I agree, there's too much to tie up in one more novel.  I would
>expect another 7 book series.  (Oh, joy!!)

There were 5 books in the first series, not 7.  Zelazny certainly is
capable of ending this one in the next book if he wants to; I'm not
at all sure that he does.  I tend to take the title change for
_Blood_of_Amber_ (it was going to be _Ghostwheel_) as evidence that
the series has been rejuggled, and thus probably expanded.  We shall
see.

By the way, I have a curious reaction to the Amber books.  When
actually reading them, they crammed full of events.  Afterwards,
when thinking about them casually, it doesn't seem like all that
much has happened.  But a closer examination reveals that the first
impression was right after all: there *is* an awfully lot going on.
Does anybody else share this reaction?

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 23:14:18 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>  Here is the way I understood the origins of Amber, Shadow and
>Oberon:
>In some manner [Dworkin] encountered the Unicorn and the Jewel of
>Judgement ... In some wise he learned the Jewel's power, and began
>to use it to impose the Pattern within it on the stuff of Chaos.
>...
>  Then Dworkin fathered Oberon, and the Unicorn was his mother, and
>Oberon became King of Amber, which was the First Shadow of
>Dworkin's Pattern.

I don't think the chronology is quite right here.  I believe that
Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the pattern.  The evidence
is not conclusive, but I think Oberon grew up in the Courts of
Chaos.  This seems unlikely if Amber already existed at that point.

I have another question concerning chronology: when did Merlin grow
up?  Dara is impregnated by Corwin in _The_Guns_of_Avalon_, i.e.,
after Corwin's escape from the dungeons.  From that point, the
action is more or less continuous until the Patternfall battle,
where Corwin and Merlin meet.  It is stated that Merlin grew up at
the Courts of Chaos.  Yet it seems that time flows slower at the
Courts than at Amber: Corwin spends a few hours there, yet is gone
from Amber for a week.  Am I missing something?

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 23:24:47 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Walking in Shadows

6080626@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>First of all, is Blood of Amber available in paperback, or just
>hardcover?

Hardcover only.  If you want to wait for the paperback, expect to
wait a while.

>I'm not sure about Dworkin. When Corwin [...] is leaving he sees
>Dworkin's hand or something, and says something like "Whatever it
>was, it wasn't human". So Dworkin and the Unicorn is not too
>strange, since we have no guarantee that human is Dworkin's real
>shape.

It seems likely that it is.  When Dworkin gets excited having taken
Corwin's shape, he reverts back towards his normal human shape, not
some monstrosity.  It seems likely that the beast-shape reflects his
madness, not his true shape.  More to the point, as has been pointed
out, we have no guarantee that the Unicorn is in her real shape.  If
only Chaos existed before the Pattern, then she must be a Chaos
creature.  (If she isn't, then who knows *what* she is!)

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 01:56:26 GMT
From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
>he has some drive, some discipline.  But when taken to Corwin's
>pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get back to
>class.  And there is no mention of him coming back, say that night.
>He passed up a major chance at getting more power.  He just never
>seemed to have gotten around to walking the second pattern.
>     Have I missed something?

   I agree.  Had I been in Merlin's shoes I would certainly have
walked Corwin's Pattern as soon as I could arrange some unobserved
(by Fiona at least) time.  However, I believe that Merlin walking
Corwin's Pattern will somehow lead to a reunion with Corwin -
Zelazny is just milking the 'Where the hell is Corwin?' question for
all its worth.  Eventually (two or maybe three years from now)
Merlin will walk Corwin's Pattern in a future Amber novel.  I wish
Zelazny would publish a bit faster.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 17:18:00 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Shape-shifting (Trumps of Doom spoiler)

>  Then how can both Merlin and Dara do it? Dara is descended from
>Benedict and Lintra, the hellmaid, so she has "law-and-order" in
>her veins. Merlin is, of course, Corwin's son, so he does too. I
>tend toward the belief that those who have mastered the Logrus have
>the ability.

Except in _Trumps_ Suhey and Fiona were quite excited about the idea
of someone walking both the Logrus and the Pattern.  Neither knew
what would happen if Merlin tried it.  You'd think that Suhey at
least would have known if Dara had walked both.  (Remember, Dara
walked the pattern toward the end of the first series.)  Since he
didn't mention it, I assume Dara hadn't walked the Logrus.
Therefore, walking the Logrus is not necessary for shapeshifting.

Anyone taking bets on whether Merlin walks his father's pattern?
With three primal forces under his belt, plus the power of
Ghostwheel at his control, Merlin would be the most powerful being
in existance.  Humble and lovable....

>     Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within
>the confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't
>enough room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary.

Yes, this is consistant with the rest of the series.  One makes
small changes in a moving landscape.  But if memory serves, Brand
gained the ability to simply teleport.  I wonder how he did that.
Imagine a trump and pass through?  Is concentration all it takes?

I must say, I have really enjoyed this discussion thus far.  Beats
hell out of 120 postings on the significance of "Speak friend, and
enter".  :-)

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 10:42:40 EDT (Thursday)
From: Salgado.WBST@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability

The shape shifting ability of Chaos may be transmitted genetically
with the Chaos trait being dominant over the Law's (the unicorn's
inability to shape-shift).  Let A be the trait to have
shapeshifting, a the trait not to have shapeshifting. Chaos
creatures are AAs; non-chaos is aa.  Thus in the first generation,
Oberon's chance of shape-shifting was 100% (he's an Aa).  His
children's 50% (Aa vs. aa), so its likely half his children can
shape-shift.  His grand-children of non-chaos spouses would have a
25% chance, while those of chaos spouses would be 100%.

Another possible match-up is that the chaos trait is recessive to
the unicorn's, but the unicorn was a partial creature of chaos (an
Aa).  Thus Oberon had a 50% chance of having the ability with a 100%
chance of carrying the gene for it.  Since he could shape-shift,
he's an AA.  His children wouldn't be able to shape-change (they'd
be Aa's) but would carry the gene recessively.  So Dara, a child of
an AA and an Aa, had a 50% chance of being able to shape-change.

David Salgado

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 86 10:56:12 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Amber and Law and Chaos

  I don't think that the terms Law and Chaos in the Moorcock/D&D/etc
sense apply to Amber and Chaos.  The Courts of Chaos, though chaotic
in flavor, are very orderly and quite stratefied; they are Lawful.
Amber, made by the Pattern, has had a rather chaotic history even at
its most peaceful.  Various characters comment on this at
appropriate times, but I can't remember who or when.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1986  15:14 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Amber

   Remember, though, that when you get near the Courts of Chaos, and
the Shadows begin to run wild, they can be controlled by holding the
image of the Pattern in your mind and imposing it upon the Shadows.
   To move through Shadow does require motion, but not necessarily
in a straight line.  As Corwin demonstrates in _Courts of Chaos_,
you can make progress by going in circles.
   Has anyone considered that perhaps the reason that Dworkin needed
to draw a trump to get back to his apartments was for no better
reason than his mind was spinning out on a loop, and he had
forgotten how to do anything else?  Remember, he describes the
damage to the Pattern as a hole in his own mind.  This seemed to
cause his powers to work rather oddly, or at least uncontrollably,
at times.
   The Logrus does not appear to necessarily grant the ability to
travel in Shadow.  Else, why would Dara have had to walk the
Pattern, and why would the Courts have needed the Black Road?  And
for that matter, if the Lord of Chaos could travel in shadow, why
didn't they simply come to Amber and try to kill Oberon et al long
ago?  Unless they didn't know the way...Actually, one interesting
possibility would be that the Logrus gives the ability to travel in
Shadow only within a fairly short radius of the Courts.  This would
fit in nicely with the stuff in the first series about luring Oberon
so far from Amber that he could be taken.  This would also tie in
pretty nicely with the Pattern's ability to "master" Chaos--to
impose structure and form on it, making it, at least temporarily, no
longer Chaos.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 13:30:31 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment
From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

>>(Remember though, that [Dworkin] has to 'sketch
>>his way back into his own apartment' in the first book).
>
>   Walking in Shadow necessitates movement of some kind. Within the
>confines of Corwin's cell, one can assume that there isn't enough
>room for this. Thus, the Trump is necessary.

I think Dworkin could've walked back if he wanted to.  But it was
probably easier (faster, less tiring) to trump back.  Remember the
scene with Corwin and Brand (in Courts of Chaos, I think), where
Corwin rides around in a circle so that he can escape through
Shadow?

Mike Kupfer
ARPA: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!kupfer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Oct 86 0834-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #342
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 11 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 342

Today's Topics:

            Television - Battlestar Galactica (4 msgs) &
                    Blake's 7 (4 msgs) & The Prisoner (2 msgs) &
                    Star Trek (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 01:19:39 GMT
From: well!gremlin@caip.rutgers.edu (Gremlin)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica and Phantom Empire

From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-cst.arpa>

>>From: Brad Templeton
>>I'm not sure I should admit I know this much about the show, but
>>the "antichrist" figure, also known as Count Iblis, WAS the Cylon
>>imperious leader, or the organic Cylon as some knew him.
>
> I like your history, but I'm having a hard time reconciling this
> claim with my memory of an earlier episode that showed the
> imperious leader at some Cylon celebration.  He was a box-like
> robot with a disk-shaped head on top.  Anybody else remember this
> episode?

I do ! I do !  this was the 2 part episode with Lloyd Bridges as the
commander of the Pegasus that was a battlestar thought destroyed in
some other conflict.

Apollo and co had to go to the nearby planet to get fuel and when
they were blowing things up the imperious leader who was on the
planet for some type of dedication or some such baloney instructed
to "guards" or whatever they called them to find out what the
commotion was and yes he was a robot.

If I remember correctly in one episode Apollo was explaining to his
son Boxie?  that the cylon race was a warrior race that used to
resemble lizards but found out the human form was better suited for
their needs and developed robots to fight their wars. These robots
eventually gained intelligence and rebeled against there masters and
finally killed them off .... any more details ?

BTW ... don't be afraid to admit that you watched this show .. it
had some technical bad points but it also had a lot of potential ...
and some of the stories I really enjoyed.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 86 10:00 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Battlestar Galactica

As I recall it, the Imperious Leader having Count Iblis' voice was
used to imply that the Cylons were a product of the Count and that
the Imperious Leader in particular (who was also a machine, although
like Merlin much more sophisticated than the shiny foot soldier
model) was made in his image.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 Oct 86 09:50:18-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Battlestar Galactica: The Imperious Leader

According to the novelizations of the Galactica series, the
Imperious Leader is a `third level robot' with Centurions being
1st-level (one brain), the I.L. series having two electronic brains
(Lucifer, for example), and only one Imperious Leader with three
electronic brains.  As I sort of recall, the total knowledge of the
Cylon Empire is available to the Imperious Leader.  The Imperious
Leader, although a robot, is built in the image of the original
Cylons who were an amphibian race (crocodile/alligator). In the
episode _The_living_Legend_ the Imperious Leader is briefly
glimpsed.  It is my belief that the voice of the Imperious Leader
and that of Count Iblis (both done by Patrick "John Steed" MacNee)
are intended to be the same to show that evil (in that part of the
universe) are all derived from the same source.

The Imperious Leader, by the way, is chosen from the I.L. series
(Imp.  Ldr.) when a new Imp Ldr is needed.

Also, if it's not clear, Patrick MacNee did play the part of Count
Iblis (memory says the episode titled _War_of_the_Gods_.)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 06:45:23 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Battlestar Galactica Question

I remember someone being confused over how Count Iblis could be the
Imperious leader, since the Imperious leader was this dog-faced
machine.  But he had to be because they had the same voice.

In the two-episode story that Count Iblis appeared in, it was
mentioned that the Count was one of the "angels", fallen, and that
he had *programmed* the original Imperious Leader, which was why it
had his voice.  Cute, huh?

kathy li

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 17:07:14 GMT
From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7 (<Spoilers if you haven't seen the series yet>)

   Since ORAC doesn't appear until the last episode of the first
season, the seventh member of the crew is Zen. You may not count
Zen, but Terry Nation did. Afterall the six characters did not meet
in the first episode, but over the first four episodes. I think that
name "Blake's 7" was kept in the sense that you had a continuing
story and after Blake left, there was always a possibility he would
return. Characters kept coming and going that it would have been
silly to rename the show every time a change in crew was made. From
one season to the next you want the viewers to be able to find the
show. You must realize that with 13 episodes a season for "Blake's
7" there was a LONG break between seasons.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 15:35:22 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7 (<Spoilers if you haven't seen the series yet>)

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson

>Say what?!! Only two more appearances and that's it??!!!! What
>gives???!!  I mean, how can they call it "Blake's 7" if Blake isn't
>in it? That would be like "Doctor Who" without the Doctor, wouldn't
>it? They might as well

"Blake's 7" was never a show that relied on *any* single person.

>     have renamed it "Avon's 5", or something like that.

Paul Darrow wanted it renamed "Avon's Angels" :-) but the BBC
wouldn't go along.  When you've got a hit show called something, you
don't change the name.  It might confuse the viewers :-) If you
watch carefully, much of the third season is spent looking for Blake
and in the fourth Avon even joins the rebellion.  Also, even though
Blake has left, the group is still identified as "You're Blake's
people."  (Rumours of Death).

>Which brings up another point: In the first season there were only
>6 humans on the ship (I don't count Zen and ORAC as part of the
>crew, since they are only computers).

Both Zen and ORAC are officially considered as part of the crew.

>One more question: Why did the actor playing Blake leave?

Gareth Thomas left because he felt the show was getting too
unrealistic.  He was also frustrated as they tried to make his
character THE HERO & wouldn't let him do things that he felt a real
rebel leader would do -- like break people's necks.  He was offered
a chance to go with the Royal Shakespeare Company and decided to
take it.

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 13:12 EST
From: JESUP RANDELL                 <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Blakes 7

> WHy did the actor playing Blake leave?

From what I heard, the series was to be cancelled after one season,
and the actors were let go.  then they decided to continue it, but
couldn't get all the actors back.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 18:47 EST
From: Rich Welty
Subject: Wanted: Blake's Seven Information

Can anyone give me a rough breakdown of the the 4(?) seasons of
Blake's Seven (number of episodes/season, # actors in the crew, etc
...).  I am currently watching what I think is the third season
(Avon in charge of the ship, different opening credits, etc.).  No
spoilers, please ...

Thanks in advance,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 19:12:04 GMT
From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: Answers to Prisoner Quiz

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>>7. "You are number 6."
>>[4 pts] What other numbers did the Prisoner have during his stay?
>
>#12 in Schiziod Man, #2 in Free for All and Fall Out, and #1 in
>Fall Out.

He was *not* number 2 in Fall Out.  In fact, he didn't HAVE a number
in Fall Out until the very end.  ("We thought you would feel more
comfortable as...yourself," says the Supervisor as he's led to his
old black suit.)

>>[3 pts] What was the Prisoner's real name?
>
>John Drake.  (No question on this, as the next question reveals)
>
>>8. "I am not a number, I am a free man!"
>>[6 pts] When was the Prisoner's real name used to address him
>>during the series?
>
>It is said in frenzy and muddled, but he calls him "Drake."
>He also used the term "Jackie" - short for John.

Hope, sorry.  If you listen VERY carefully to what Number 2 (Leo
McKern) says in the guise of the school master during "degree
absolute", it's "Report to my study in the morning break" -- NOT "in
the morning, Drake."

"See saw, Marjorie Daw, Jackie shall have a new master" is a
children's nursery rhyme.  Granted, it's approriate to what's going
on, but it certainly doesn't imply that his name is John.

Matt Landau
mlandau@diamond.bbn.com
seismo!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau
BBN Laboratories, Inc.
10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238
(617) 497-2429

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 13:59:47 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: Answers to Prisoner Quiz

mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau) writes:
>Hope, sorry.  If you listen VERY carefully to what Number 2 (Leo
>McKern) says in the guise of the school master during "degree
>absolute", it's "Report to my study in the morning break" -- NOT
>"in the morning, Drake."
>
>"See saw, Marjorie Daw, Jackie shall have a new master" is a
>children's nursery rhyme.  Granted, it's approriate to what's going
>on, but it certainly doesn't imply that his name is John.

In addition to that, I clearly remember (although it has been a long
time) that John Drake DIED (delivering something, a tape?) at the
end of the last episode of Secret Agent.  So unless Prisoner takes
place in the middle of Drake's time in whatever British agency he
worked for, the Prisoner CAN'T be Drake.

Chew on that.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 15:44:00 GMT
From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek's Century.

>Mark Lewandowski writes about the episode, "The Squire of Gothos."
>Trelayne (the "Squire" and alien brat-child) was studying France of
>the 13th or 14th century (early Renaissance), which with Kirk's

Actually, the Squire was studying Europe of the 18th century.  He
dresses in mid-eighteenth century style (certainly no earlier than
1700), his manse is decorated in rococco style, and he plays a
fairly late harpsichord.  He also plays music which could not have
been written before the Baroque era, and which I suspect was by one
of the Bach kids.  Also, his style of speech is rather reminiscent
of early British colonial, what with comments on "Nubian slaves" and
whatnot.  A Frenchman of the 14th century wouldn't know what to make
of a Black, and would probably assume said person was Moorish.  (As
an aside, in Wolfram von Eschenbach's Perzival, there is a character
whose father was a Moorish knight, and whose mother was Caucasian.
The character is, of course, piebald.)

Ami Silberman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Oct 86 10:28:56 -0500
From: Bev Sobelman <bhs@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek century - can we stand one more comment?

Having just watched 'The Wrath' last night, I just wanted to share
two observations I haven't seen mentioned here yet (but then I've
just discovered the net and may not have caught up completely just
yet - forgive me if I'm being redundant).

1.  At the beginning of the movie, when McCoy comes by with
    Kirk's specs and a bottle of Romulan hooch, Kirk looks at the
    bottle and remarks that the year on it is 2283, which suggests
    that we must be in the very late 23rd century (assuming Romulan
    booze ages like, say, Scotch).

2. For the record:  when Khan relates his saga down on the
   Botany Bay, he cites 1996 as the year he and his crew went into
   cryogenic freeze; if they were frozen for 200 years, that means
   they've been thawed out for close to 100 by this time.  (?????)

Sorry if this has been beaten into the ground, but if anyone is
still wrestling with it, I hope the above is useful.

By the way, does anyone know anything juicy about ST IV?  If there's
anyone in the Boston area who's planning to go when it opens, I'm
game . . .

Bev Sobelman
bhs@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  7 Oct 86 15:02:36 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Star Trek:  No Century of Progress

The striking thing about the ST milieu is how similar it is to our
own.  It is more similar to our society than ours is to Edwardian
England.  Certainly someone transported out of our time would feel
more at home in the ST society than in the Edwardian one.

Not only is there virtually no social change, but there is also next
to no technological progress.  In the past fifty years technological
progress has affected almost everything we do.  The only aspects of
ST technology which are beyond our current abilities are those
required to make ST a science-fiction show: warp drive, impulse
drive, phasers, photon torpedos, anti-matter, the transporter,
better sensors, etc.  Beyond these, people live much the way we do.
It's what you'd expect in 2000 AD if some aliens showed up tomorrow
and *sold* us a fleet of Enterprise-like ships.

By contrast, imagine that a cheap and practical matter-antimatter
power system were developed tomorrow.  Consider how thoroughly it
would change our technology, economy and culture within twenty
years.  Within fifty years.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 86 12:23:33 cet
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: ST's Century and The Phoenix

Greetings:

One thing that no one has mentioned in the supposed 'error' in
Kirk's remark about Trelane observing the earth of 900 years past is
that if Trelane is using a super-duper light telescope, then HIS
DISTANCE from earth becomes a major factor!!!  If Trelane's planet
is 900 light years from Earth, then Kirk's comment is justified....

As a sidebar, I have noticed several messages on the Old SF show The
Phoenix.  If anyone is interested, I have a number (not a complete
set, unfortunately) of the episodes on videotape, Beta format.  If
anyone is interested, please contact me.  If anyone out there DOES
have a complete collection, I would appreciate hearing from you!!!

George Madison
7GMADISO at POMONA  (BITnet)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 08:03:53 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccrdave@caip.rutgers.edu (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  No Century of Progress

From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
> By contrast, imagine that a cheap and practical matter-antimatter
> power system were developed tomorrow.  Consider how thoroughly it
> would change our technology, economy and culture within twenty
> years.  Within fifty years.

Who said matter-antomatter containment systems were cheap?  Starship
class ships cost an incredible fortune!  The power plants are a
major part.  In reality, the day in/day out planet bound people's
living standards are, in some ways, not all that removed from middle
class people of today.  Some new gadgets, but no personal
transporter stages, or personal shuttlecraft, or personal phasers.
Electrical Power remains government controlled, and is limited.

Also, how would morals and other social behaviors on the typical
working planet be influenced by a handful of people in starships?
Beyond a new source of source material for the prime time TV shows,
of course.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 86 0856-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #343
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 343

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anderson & Asimov & Burroughs &
                      Cameron (3 msgs) & Capps & Galouye &
                      LeGuin & Myers (2 msgs) & Alternate Earths &
                      Star Trek Stories (2 msgs) & Cyberpunk & 
                      Printing Histories & Series &
                      A Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@violet.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 11:37:21 -0200
Subject: Re: DaVinci
Cc: abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu

>DaVinci figured in a short story I read some 15+ years ago.  I
>can't remember the author (maybe Poul Anderson ?) and it was a
>foreign edition.

The story is "the light", by Poul Anderson. Unfortunately, I also
read it in a foreign edition, and I've no idea where the original
can be found.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:           ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 86 02:31:01 GMT
From: gouvea@husc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea)
Subject: *FOUNDATION AND EARTH*(Spoilers)

FOUNDATION AND EARTH
Isaac Asimov

This is the latest step in Asimov's project of uniting all of his
novels into one grand design, and especially of connecting the Robot
novels to the Foundation series.  It is at the same time very
interesting and a little frustrating.

This one takes place almost immediately after the events in
FOUNDATION'S EDGE; Golan Trevize, having chosen "Galaxia" (a
sentient, united galaxy) as humanity's future, begins to question
his decision, and decides, in a flash of intuition, that he must go
to Earth to find answers to his doubts.  And so he does.  On the
way, many of the mysteries created in the previous books (most
notably ROBOTS AND EMPIRE) are resolved, everything is nicely
concluded, R. Daneel Olivaw's role is made (more) clear, and an
opening for a sequel is set up.  Nice, pleasant reading.

So why the frustration?  The problem is that, in joining together
the Robot and the Foundation novels, Asimov has sacrificed the basic
themes of each, and hasn't really replaced them with anything
interesting.  The Robot novels had as a central strand the idea that
eventually robots and people should be able to live together in a
balanced situation.  However, since he wants to get to the
Foundation universe, Asimov must disturb this development.  No
robot-human society is set up; rather, robots, in the person of
Daneel, assume a paternalistic role and are the hidden planners of
humanity's future.  The Foundation Trilogy was, to a large extent,
about determinism versus free will, but also about politics and the
state.  The last two novels have veered into a discussion of
individuality versus collectivity.  And the last paragraph of this
book suggests that the next step is aliens.

I would much rather Asimov would write novels set in new contexts.
Part of the sf game is creating new possible futures.  This one is
getting old.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 17:23:04 GMT
From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner)
Subject: Re: ERB

>    Does anybody out there like Edgar Rice Burroughs books?  I've
> read the moon, Mars, Venus, and Pellucidar series, but none of the
> Tarzan books.

I for one grew up on the Mars series.  ERB's descriptions of exotic
people, fantastic scenery and heroic efforts hooked me on SF.
Although I quickly 'outgrew' (not trying to sound to snobbish here)
his stories and moved on to grander ideas, I still reread the first
three books (The Princess of Mars, The Gods of Mars, The Warlord of
Mars) every couple of years.  Kinda like watching a M*A*S*H rerun,
it just feels good!

Matt Verner
AT&T Consumer Products Laboratories
P. O. Box 1008
Indianapolis, IN  46206
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner
AT&T:  (317) 845-3631

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 08:26 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: The Mushroom Planet

   Ah, yes, haven't thought about those Eleanor Cameron books in
years. I sure liked them as a kid--maybe it's time for me to hunt
them up for my own collection. I seem to remember it was some
for-schools-only publisher who put htem out, but I'm sure jayembee
or others can flesh out that information...

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 11:28:39 EDT
From: Jack Ostroff <OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Mushroom Planet

The fourth book was Time and Mr. Bass if I remember correctly.
Indeed a great series.  (Actually, I thought the first was Wonderful
Flight to the Mushroom Planet, and I somehow remember five books,
but . . . must be too many mushrooms :-))

Jack (OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 14:43:18 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: theme story request (counter earth)

   The Mushroom Planet is NOT Counter-Earth; it's in a 50,000 mile
orbit \around/ earth (just happens to be invisible unless you have
the special filter for your telescope).

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 08:47:46 GMT
From: akov68.dec.com!boyajian@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: re: Search for C.C. MacApp/Carroll M. Capps

> From: psuvm.bitnet!giz        (Jeff Ganaposki)
> 'Way back in the forgotten past, there was a few books published
> by an author with the (pseudo)name of C.C. MacApp and/or Carroll
> M. Capps.  You may have heard or read of them: "Worlds of the
> Wall" "Recall not Earth" "Secret of the Sunless World" "Prisoners
> of the Sky"

Carroll M. Capps was the real name, C.C. MacApp the pseudonym.  Not
much is known about the writer (that I can find in my references,
anyways), other than that he died in 1971.

In addition to the four novels you list, he had three novels
published:

OMHA ABIDES (Paperback Library, 1968)
SUBB        (Paperback Library, 1971)
BUMSIDER    (Lancer, 1972)

In addition, he had about 40 short stories published in the sf
magazines --- most notably GALAXY and IF --- from 1960 to 1971. Some
of these stories were expanded or connected together to form the
above novels.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 17:50:20 GMT
From: moews@husc4.harvard.edu (david moews)
Subject: Re: Story request

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>Also, while I am at it, I want the name of a book that I read which
>convinced me that science fiction was ot worth reading...  ...All I
>recall about it is that roughly 2/3rds of the way through the story
>the value of PI changed in one decimal point, and I gave up in
>disgust.  I think that it was called something like *The
>Transcendental Man*.  WHen I bitterly complained to my father, he
>told me that all science fiction was like that, and pointed me at
>Rex Stout.  Anybody know that book?

This sounds like _The Infinite Man_ by Daniel F. Galouye (Bantam
Books, 1973), about a man whose unconscious was continuously
creating the universe (or something like that.)  The value of pi
changed, I think, to a rational number (exact value not revealed;
the rationale was that the Creator was having some trouble with
inconsistencies in the Universe, and that this change would make
things simpler to keep track of.)

David Moews
moews@husc4.harvard.edu moews@harvsc4.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 17:03:38 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Earth in LeGuin's stories

EVANS@TL-20B.ARPA writes:
> Although the Hainish novels form a more or less consistent
> universe, I have the strong feeling that there are contradictions.
> In "The Dispossessed" earth is a ruined world, but I have the
> strong memory that it is OK in another novel.  Is anyone's memory
> better than mine?

As evidenced by the fact you mentioned that the ansible is invented
in TD and used in all her other fiction, TD is very early in
LeGuin's chronology.  There's a book set much later on Earth soon
after the "Time of the Enemy" called City of Illusions, in which the
place has apparently long since recovered.  I believe The Left Hand
of Darkness is also set later than that, since it also mentions the
Enemy (and implies if I remember correctly that Earth is fine).

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 15:54:54 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Myers

brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>I don't believe The Harp and the Blade is about CONAN, just about
>some guy named Conan. It is a real name, after all....

Conan was a Celtic mythic hero. I've always heard it pronounced
Khan-an, accent on the first syllable.

>One question: Why didn't Silverlock take that last drink?!?!?!?

Interesting question. The third drink is supposed to confer the
power of creativity. It isn't automatically bestowed. (That is one
of the points from the trial scene that is in Mephisto's favor). I
think Shandon doesn't get a third draught because he failed to write
a poem along the river. Isaac Walton commented at the time that it
ought to have been easy, as he had time, setting, inclination, and
means at hand.

I also think one of the points is that not everything has to work
out perfectly in life. The fact that Shandon gets as far as he does
by the end of the story, given that he started as a self-centered,
egotistical twit, is already impressive enough. Making him over into
a full-fledged bard in a year's time is asking a bit much, I think.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 17:32:58 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter

TMFED is a sequel to Silverlock in only the weakest sense.  Calling
it a sequel on the cover probably caused a lot of people to buy it
who wouldnt have, otherwise.

It does not take place in the Commonwealth.  It is a much lighter
and less ambitious book than Silverlock.  Silverlock ends with the
protagonist taking two quaffs from the spring but not being able to
hold his water well enough to take the third one, which would make
him a bard.  TMFED, on the other hand is about someone (in a
marginally more mundane setting) who does take that third drink.

The book has some interesting ideas about what makes good poetry.
It is worth reading on its own merits, but anyone looking for a
sequel to Silverlock will be disappointed.

Dain Zweig

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 07:38 CDT
From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Alternate Earths

I'm suprised that noone has mentioned "Echo X" by Ben Bova, but then
again it's been some time since I read it and maybe it has slipped
from popularity.

Steve
ARPA:  DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86  14:42:38 EDT
From: salamir%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Kirk/Spock love stories

I am looking to build a collection of those esoteric 'fan' stories
in which Kirk falls for Spock, or vice-versa.  Can anyone point me
towards sources for these tales?

Sal

------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 Oct 86 20:46:28-EDT
From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet)
Subject: ST story request
Cc: wccs.e-simon%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

I recall reading a Star Trek story years ago in which Kirk, Spock,
and (I think) Bones ended up in a planet-sized "environmental" zoo.
They beamed onto a planet, and found that the environment was
divided into squares.  There was no transition between environment,
just a sharp dividing line.  The thing that called their attention
to the fact that something screwy was going on was when they found
themselves on the line between a jungle and a desert.  Eventually,
they find out they're in a giant zoo, as exhibits.

I believe this was a novel, not an episode or short story, although
I may be wrong.  I do, however, remember enjoying it immensely.
It's _not_ "The Menagerie" (or "The Cage," if you prefer that
title).  Anyone recognize it?

Please e-mail me a copy of your replies, as my reading of the digest
is sporadic at best.

Rob Freundlich
Wesleyan University
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 17:20:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Quasi-cyberpunk novels

Two pre- and post- and quasi-cyberpunk novels in response to the
request:

NICHOLAS YERMAKOV       JOURNEY FROM FLESH

This looked really attractive at first: strange parasitical alien
lizards, colorful and bizarre characters, interesting scenario. I
gave up after about 60 pages. The writing is atrocious, the dialogue
is wooden, and there is little characterization to speak of. Avoid
like the plague if you demand decent writing with your science
fiction props.

KARL HANSEN             DREAM GAMES

A section of this novel appeared in a issue of Omni. This is really
more "genetic engineering-punk" than cyberpunk. The writing is
competent and does a good job of evoking exotic futuristic
scenarios. The plot is the standard "self-discovery" adventures of
two genetically altered renegade human thieves. Warning: many
situations involving child abuse, sexual deviation and bestiality
which may be offensive to even a science fiction reader who's "seen
it all." A gripping thriller, highly recommended.

Bill Hsu

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Oct 1986 01:16:41-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Printing History Query

> From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
> Does anyone know whether publishers are under any legal obligation
> to print accurate printing histories?  Or are they just responding
> to accepted standards?

Publishers are not under any legal obligation to print the
publishing history of a book. Their only obligation in this general
area is to print an accurate copyright notice.

As for your couple of examples---

(1) THE GOLDEN PEOPLE: You don't think that a version 1-1/2 times
the size of the original is "substantially different"?

(2) SWEET DREAMS, SWEET PRINCES: Actually, this is the title of the
ANALOG serial version, so it's a restoration of the original title,
not a malicious re-titling.

The sort of publishing practices that you cite may be sneaky and
unethical, but they are not illegal. The only thing you can do is to
write the publisher in question and make your complaint, perhaps
threatening to not buy any of that publisher's product while you're
at it, if it means that much to you.

Bottom line: Caveat emptor!

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 86 08:35:56 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Dray Prescot

mpm@hpfcms.HP.COM ( Mike McCarthy ) writes:
>> ...  Face it, how many other series, by one author mind you, can
>> claim over thirty titles?  Dumarest is the only one I can think
>> of.
>     The Doc Savage books by Kenneth Robeson number well in excess
>of 100 novels (or novellas, depending on your definition).

   The thing about most series is that they are that -- series.
'Dray Prescot' is interesting because it comes closer to being a
single, continuous narrative, rather than a semi-connected series of
essentially independent stories.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 09:02 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Story Request

A long time ago, I read a collection of short stories that contained
a story titled (as I recall), "The beat cluster." Could some kind,
knowledgable person tell me the name of the collection, the date of
publication, and the author?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 86 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #344
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 344

Today's Topics:

              Films - 2001: A Space Odyssey (3 msgs) &
                      Counter Earth Films (2 msgs) &
                      Hellraiser & Star Trek (10 msgs) &
                      Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 18:11:16 GMT
From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Voice of HAL-9000

From: karger%ultra.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
>> According to my foggy memory, Douglas Rains was a RAF Air
>> Traffic Control Officer picked because of his voice.  No prior
>> acting experience whatsoever, and I don't know if he has done
>> anything else.
>
>Douglas Rain, the voice of HAL-9000 was a quite distinguished
>Shakespearean actor, prior to his work in 2001.

That's true. the confusion on the part of the original poster may be
this:

The voice (and face) of CapCom in the 2001 Discovery bridge scenes
did indeed belong to an air traffic controller. Kubrick wnted a
voice that look/felt like today's air traffic controllers - that
sort of droll "Roger one-niner..." sound.

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 7 Oct 86 14:52:50-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: HAL singing "Bicycle Built for Two"

According to Ed Feigenbaum, the first song to be sung by a computer
using voice-synthesis was, in fact, "Bicycle Built for Two" (the
correct name for "Daisy").  At a gathering a few years ago, he
mentioned that this was what inspired HAL's singing in "2001: A
Space Odyssey."

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 21:55:09 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: HAL singing "Bicycle Built for Two"

In fact I have the recording...
Found on side two of the _Philadelphia_Computer_Music_Festival_ from
Creative Computing (CR101) is the 1963 Bell Labs "Synthesized
Computer Speech Demonstration." lasting 2:20 by D.H. Van Lenten.

According to the jacket each of the nine control for the 34 phonetic
sounds were individually keypunched onto cards and processed by a
two-part program to produce a magnetic tape.  This was then
converted by a second program into an audio tape.

The record even has him singing to a synthesized piano..

(Eat your heart out Max Headroom!)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 22:36:45 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@caip.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request)

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>There are two movies that i know of that involve planets on the far
>side of the sun.  Neither of the movies makes much sense, one makes
>less sense than the other.
>
>In one movie, an astronaut heads in some funky orbit around the
>sun.  He get's back too soon.  We eventually realize that there is
>another planet on the far side of the sun that is exactly the same
>as ours, but flipped, right for left.  Astronaut eventually manages
>to get launched back into orbit so he can recover his mother craft
>and return to where he really belongs.

Oh GOODY GOODY GOODY GOODY GOODY.  I want the NAME of this movie.
You see, it was my *very first exposure* to science fiction.  (Yes,
we didn't have a television at home.  And they didn't show Star Trek
in England anyway.  Besides, I am older than that.)  And I walked
away from that movie (in those days we went to movies only about
twice a year; come to think of it, that is what I do now as well)
with an overwhelming urge to find more things like that to read.
And it was only a few years later when a curiousity about porpoises
lead me to Arthur C Clarke's *Dolphin Island*, and from there to the
rest of Clarke that I learned that what I had been looking for was
science fiction.  I had always thought that science fiction was
composed of parodies of science, which for me was obscene.

I want the name of that movie!!  Anybody remember?

Also, while I am at it, I want the name of a book that I read which
convinced me that science fiction was not worth reading.  (On one
book - blush, and the recommendation of my father, whom I introduced
to the good bits of science fiction.)  All I recall about it is that
roughly 2/3rds of the way through the story the value of PI changed
in one decimal point, and I gave up in disgust.  I think that it was
called something like *The Transcendental Man*.  WHen I bitterly
complained to my father, he told me that all science fiction was
like that, and pointed me at Rex Stout.

Anybody know that book?

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura
toad@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 06:20:46 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request)

We have gotten one wrong answer on the net, I feel justified in
responding in public.  The counter-earth film is DOPPLEGANGER
(American title JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN) directed by
Robert Parrish in 1969.  It starred Roy Thinnes, his wife Lynn
Loring, Herbert Lom, and Patrick Wymark.  Apparently the
counter-earth was symmetrically opposite to Earth about a point.
Being symmetrical about a line would not have given you the mirror
image effect (merry-go-rounds have this sort of symmetry) and
symmetrical about a plane (like looking into a mirror) would have
had the two planets collide every six months.  Symmetry about a
point does give you mirror image.  There were other problems with
the symmetry.  When someone on this side says "Mars is at the
nearest it gets right now" presumably his doppleganger on the other
side is saying the same thing, but Mars surely would not be at its
nearest point to both planets at the same time.  Symmetry around a
point would make Polaris the south pole star for the counter-earth.
At least that is how someone with a mathematical turn of mind might
look at the film.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1986 23:51:40 PDT
Subject: Hellraiser (Clive Barker)
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

Production starts this week in England for Hellraiser, a "horror
film homage to Pandora's Box" (L.A. Times), written and directed by
Clive Barker for spring release.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 19:52:53 GMT
From: dartvax!chelsea@caip.rutgers.edu (Karen Christenson)
Subject: Re: The Phoenix

>It was not Khans son. Unless you think that the character was only
>15 yrs old in the movie. I guess it could be the son of his by
>other then Lt Mcgivers though.  Isn't it amazing how ST creeps into
>everything.

   I don't know how they reconcile the time difference but - in an
interview in one of those magazines you can pick up at the theater,
Judson Scott discussed his role in STII and said it was that of
Khan's son.  That was kind of the picture I got from the movie
anyway, before I read the article.

Karen Christenson
...!dartvax!chelsea

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 86 12:15:32 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Khan's son

Who was Khan's son? I never caught a reference to this in the movie
or the novelization. Was it Joachim? I don't think he was old
enough...or was his son born on Earth? Please clear this up.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 16:18:44 GMT
From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John)
Subject: Re: Khan's son

From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>Who was Khan's son? I never caught a reference to this in the movie
>or the novelization. Was it Joachim? I don't think he was old
>enough...or was his son born on Earth? Please clear this up.

I don't remember a specific reference to Khan's son, but I know a
couple of things.  Joachim was NOT Khan's son, or if he was, then
Khan's wife from the big-E wasn't the mother.  Joachim was in "Space
Seed", but he was played by someone else and didn't really have much
of a part.  If Khan had a son, I'd prefer to think that Khan had him
while on Alpha Ceti VI, and the son was killed before the Reliant
picked Khan up.  Hope this helps.

Jim Griffith
griffith@cory.berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1986 23:49:14 PDT
Subject: Star Trek IV release date
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>

According to the L.A. Times, the release date for ST IV has been
moved up to Nov. 26th, the day before Thanksgiving, from December
19th. This was based on the enthusiastic response a sneak preview
received last week in Tucson.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 06:02:23 GMT
From: ur-tut!agoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Karl Cialli)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date

At a movie theater this past Friday evening I saw a poster for STIV
as the theater's holiday attraction.  It was just the usual teaser
with the Star Trek logo blazing down into the Earth's atmosphere
heading for San Francisco, BUT it said that film was opening Friday
December 12.

This could just be in the northeast but I believe it's Paramount's
nationwide release date.

KC

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 00:03:46 GMT
From: loral!jlh@caip.rutgers.edu (The Aimless Wanderer)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date

I was in a theatre last weekend and they had Thanksgiving weekend as
being the magic one for the release.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 20:54:15 GMT
From: usc-oberon!bishop@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Bishop)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date

   I saw a pre-release version of ST IV about 3 weeks ago. It was a
'rough cut', although most of the special effects were in place (and
were pretty spectacular), but the soundtrack was obviously stock.

  I won't spoil it, but I will say this - only a select few of the
jokes worked for me, and I was more repulsed than amused at what
they put the (former) crew of the Enterprise through for this little
adventure. I'm not a worshipper of the ST mythos, either. Put it
this way - it's about as good as one of the more average humorous
episodes from the original shows (i.e. it's no "Trouble with
Tribbles", more like a Space Hippies [whatever that episode was
called] quality show).

  As a side note, Leonard Nimoy was at the screening, but we didn't
get a chance to chat with him. In way, I guess that's good; he
directed the film.  Maybe it'll get better in editing.

** I CAN'T RESIST! ONE SPOILER! HERE IT COMES!!!!******

  Here's one lame example - you're at the San Francisco Whalearium
(?), and all of a sudden Spock is gone. The you see him in the tank.
Yes, he's...mind-melding with a Whale, his hand alongside the
thing's head.

 Yech.

brian bishop
bishop@usc-ecl.ARPA
bishop@usc-oberon.ARPA
(uscvax,sdcvdef,engvax,scgvaxd,smeagol)!usc-oberon!bishop.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 21:00:53 GMT
From: ihlpg!eagle@caip.rutgers.edu (John Blumenstein)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date

Here in Chicago the Plitt Movie theaters had the smaller versions of
the poster that people can take.  I have it here on my wall.  My
wife is real excited because that is her birthday and she now knows
what she wants to do on her birthday.  We have not missed an opening
night yet.

By the way the poster is of the following

"BEAMING DOWN TO EARTH DECEMBER 12, 1986."


  STAR          \\
  TREK           \\
    IV            \\       Blasing down to a city that you can
    The           //       plainly see  by the G. G. Bridge and
    Voyage       //        the TransAm building that it is S.F.
    Home        //

------------------------------

Date: Sun 12 Oct 86 21:14:24-EDT
From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet)
Subject: ST IV
Cc: wccs.e-siMON%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

A friend just returned from UConn with a photo-packed booklet about
ST IV.  The pictures seem to back up all previous discussion we've
seen on the net.  There's a picture of what must be Kirk's trial,
and several that show characters in what seems to be the 20th
century.  One picture shows Sulu flying a helicopter.  I guess he
can fly anything ! :-)

Rob Freundlich
Wesleyan University
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet.wiscvm.arpa
USnail: Box 324
        Wesleyan Station
        Middletown, Ct.  06457

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Oct 86 22:08:57 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Romulan Ale and Star Trek dates

>Kirk cites 2283 as the date on the ale....

Okay, two possibilities. This was a Romulan date, or Kirk was
converting the Romulan date into Terran Standard. I lean toward the
Romulan date, myself, but only for the sake of keeping the show in
the 22nd century. I will go with Khan's dating, rather than
Trelane's. This would put "Space Seed" in the late 22nd century (200
years after 1996), and would allow "Wrath of Khan", which began with
the words "In the 23rd century..." to be 2210 or so.

Stardates are very screwed up. If I remember correctly, the episodes
were about 1800-3500 (three years), STTMP was the middle 7000s, but
TWOK was only 8000 or so! This means either someone screwed up, or
the stardates rotate (0-9999-0-9999 etc.)

Also, two details in the movie. When the Klingons show up on the
screen, Saavik says something unintelligible, the "Mr. Sulu, get us
out of here!" Did anybody manage to intellige that? Also, it was
hard to tell, but it seemed that Peter Preston ran back to pull
someone out from under a closing door, then the person ran off and
Peter collapsed. Right or wrong?  Also, someone probably will have
posted it by now, but STAR TREK:THE NEW GENERATION WILL BE COMING TO
TV NEXT FALL! I think it will be syndicated rather than on a
network.

I have a new idea on Genesis' instability. The Genesis torpedo
destroyed the controller with the Reliant. Might this be why it was
unstable? In the planned experiment, the controller would have been
safely off the planet.

Also, in one of my computer classes, they showed a recording of the
summary tape, with commentary by someone from the graphics team that
produced it. After the Genesis wave (neat name) passes the camera,
it swoops down and goes over several mountain ranges. Except the
last one. They wanted to pass over all of them, but the "camera"
kept running into the last mountain.  So, they drew a gorge for the
camera to go through. Neat trick, eh?  Well, that's all for now.

KEEP ON TREKKIN'!

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 20:59:18 GMT
From: tcdmath!jaymin@caip.rutgers.edu (Joe Jaquinta)
Subject: Star Wars I (not IV)

I have heard that they have started filming Star Wars I (or -3 if
you prefer {-2 for mathemeticians}). Does anybody know if this is
true and if so what is the supposed plot summary?

j

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 86 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #345
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 345

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 18:54:21 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: nitpicking Amber question

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes:
>and a trivia question: where does the name ganelon originate?
>there's one derivation that's almost certain given what we know
>about the ganelon that corwin knows....

Come on, chip, give me a break! there's nothing trivial about the
song of Roland. Its all VERY serious, and everyone in it thinks they
are important.

Oops, come to think of it, I expect most of the characters were
versed in grammer, logic, and rhetoric. So maybe this is a trivium
question after all.

Ganelon, of course, betrayed Roland to the Saracens.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 00:08:02 GMT
From: oliveb!trash@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Repa)
Subject: Re: Amber

Hope all you fans of Amber can help me.  A long time ago I read one
or two of the Amber books, and because of all the interesting things
I read on the net, I would like to reread the entire series.

So would some of you kind people like to send me the appropriate
list of which books to read and in what order?

I usually find libraries have 2 of an n book set in a particular
set, and of course first editions which do not list the later books.
Also, I recall reading that the series is not finished. Is this a
series that will probably continue as long as Z. lives?

Thanks in advance,
Tom Repa (trash@oliven)
{allegra,glacier,hplabs,ihnp4}!oliveb!oliven!trash

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1986  03:04 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: cate3.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Amber--Merlin

   Seemed to me that the reason that Merlin didn't walk Corwin's
Pattern when Fi took him there is that he didn't want anyone to know
that he could.  Later, he either never had time or perhaps couldn't
find his way back.  How does one get there after all?  It's not "in
Shadow" or in Chaos either for that matter.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 17:08:31 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes:
>     One of the things which bothered me in "Blood of Amber" is
>Merlin's attitude.  It seemed inconsistent at times.  Here is a guy
>who builds his own computer, no small task.  Must have taken months
>and months.  So he has some drive, some discipline.  But when taken
>to Corwin's pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get
>back to class.

Ah!  You missed a little bit of irony there.  Merlin had no
intention of walking that pattern, and was giving a lame sounding
excuse to the reader (or whomever he's telling the story to) for why
he didn't walk it.

About Merlin and power... I don't know.  It seems to me that he
doesn't intentionally pursue power for it's own sake, but does it
for the challenge.  When he saw the pattern he 'knew [he] had to
walk it'.  I think he built Ghostwheel for the same reason -- not to
exploit it, but just for the challenge of doing it.  Merlin appears
to disdain weapons, and only carries prepared spells around when he
goes into a situation as the agressor.  (Melman, the Keep of Four
Worlds.)  In this fashion he seems at his more arrogant, pre-
ferring to depend on his talent for improvisation when threatened,
rather than a prepared defense.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 08:16:50 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: Zelazny

(Re the comment about Merlin's inconsistency).

One thing you have to remember is that Merlin is a kid, relatively
speaking. Also, he is far more of an Ivory Tower type than his
father. Like Martin, he seems to just want to do his thing and
resents the disruption of his life by these bizarre events.

Also keep in mind that Zelazny is writing in first person,
subjective; both Corwin and Merlin are not the most normal types by
our standards, and Zelazny writes them that way. Merlin has done a
couple of real stupid things so far, but done them in a way more or
less consistent with his character. He is still learning to cope
with his status; give him a few thousand years of this kind of thing
and then see.....

Name:            Laurence Raphael Brothers
Organization:    Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey
Uucp-Address:    topaz!brothers
Internet-Address:brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
Bell-Address:    {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790}
Postal-Address:  BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 02:20:45 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes:
>>Surely someone bright enough to build a sentient computer (a.k.a.
>>Merlin) could see this potential for power and exploit it.
>
>     One of the things which bothered me in "Blood of Amber" is
>Merlin's attitude.  It seemed inconsistent at times.  Here is a guy
>who builds his own computer, no small task.  Must have taken months
>and months.  So he has some drive, some discipline.  But when taken
>to Corwin's pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get
>back to class.  And there is no mention of him coming back, say
>that night.  He passed up a major chance at getting more power.  He
>just never seemed to have gotten around to walking the second
>pattern.
>     Have I missed something?

You are missing something.  Merlin has a very consistent attitude.
He DOESN'T gather power for power's sake.  What power he has was
gathered to help him achieve certain goals.  His primary goal until
recently was simply to get to know himself better (mature).  If
you'll remember from Courts of Chaos, he sought his father out for
that reason and that was the big reason why he wanted to walk the
Pattern, so he could go off into Shadow and just live.

There were really 2 reasons why Merlin didn't walk Corwin's Pattern.

1) He was in the middle of doing something else.
2) The Pattern will kill you if start walking it
   and can't finish walking it.

Death is pretty high risk to take for power Merlin didn't really
care about anyway.

Merlin does have a consistent attitude and that's to live life the
way he wants until something comes up that makes it impossible for
him to do -- so in which he might get annoyed and do something about
it (sort of like his father, huh?).  He really couldn't care less
about power for its own sake.

It was this lack of concern for power that blinded him to the
potential uses of the Ghostwheel.  He designed it to be an
information gathering device that would help safeguard Amber.  He
simply didn't see the other possibilities because it wasn't in his
nature to automatically look for them.  My guess is that having been
burned once, he won't make that mistake twice but it's a little late
now.

Merlin's attitude on power is consistent with the rest of Zelazny's
characters.  Although most of Zelazny's stories deal with
protagonists who can command an extrordinary amount of power, none
of them were the kind of person who grabbed power simply for the
sake of power.  (Remember Sam, The Prince Who Was a Thousand, Pol
Detson, Dilvish, etc.)

For what it's worth, I agree with them (him).  Being an epic hero
sound grand and all, but having to fight the forces of darkness,
consistently push oneself to the limit, make heroic sacrifices,
etc., would be a real pain in the ass.  It might be possible to
really live like that, but I wouldn't want to.  Much more pleasant
to live a relatively calm life surrounded by family and friends. [*]

Merlin's got some quirks but he's basically your nice sane kind of
person with no delusions of grandeur.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech.UUCP

[*] --  There's an ancient Chinese curse based on this idea.
        It goes -- "May you live in interesting times."

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 11:18:06 PDT (Friday)
From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber

>Seemed to me that the reason that Merlin didn't walk Corwin's
>Pattern when Fi took him there is that he didn't want anyone to
>know that he could.  Later, he either never had time or perhaps
>couldn't find his way back.  How does one get there after all?
>It's not "in Shadow" or in Chaos either for that matter.

   I missed something along the way then.  Just where is Corwin's
pattern?  Was this mentioned in the book, or indirectly deduced?
I've sort of been thinking that the patterns and chaos are like
positive and negative electrons.  With just one pattern and one
chaos the field flowed from one to the other, but now is:

     +      -      +

Ugh, can't draw in the field.  Is this even a valid analogy?

Have a good day.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 21:28:03 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment

Michael_D._Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM  writes:
>I think Dworkin could've walked back if he wanted to.  But it was
>probably easier (faster, less tiring) to trump back.  Remember the
>scene with Corwin and Brand (in Courts of Chaos, I think), where
>Corwin rides around in a circle so that he can escape through
>Shadow?

Maybe Dworkin is omniscient, and knew that several books later
Corwin would have need for a Trump of the Courts of Chaos. Therefore
he drew the sketch on the wall of Corwin's cell, knowing that one
day Corwin would investigate, and when Corwin did he arranged to
have him find the Chaos Trump, and then scared him away before he
had time to put it down.

Adam Barr
P.S. If you are putting spoilers, please indicate up until which
book they spoil...if you just say "Amber Spoilers" I can't tell if
you are ruining Nine Princes in or Blood of...

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1986  19:14 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: cate3.pa%XEROX@EDDIE.MIT.EDU
Subject: Amber

   Well, if that's the case, you'd have to walk through the Shadows
cast by Corwin's Pattern to get there, and I wonder if that's
possible if you haven't walked his Pattern first.  Besides, one
constraint that seems to exist in Shadow travelling is that you have
to know how to get where you want to go, and different people seem
to have different routes sometimes.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 05:33:00 GMT
From: jimb@ism780
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

> [...re:Amber]
> I wish Zelazny would publish a bit faster.

Tell you what, comrade.  Try to write a passably readable novel, let
alone a more than mediocre novel, and see how long it takes you.
Meanwhile, don't mind me if I sit back and giggle.  Publishing is a
function of writing (Damn!  What these scientists discover!).

Jim Brunet
UCBVAX/HPLABS/HAO/ICO/ISM780
SEISMO/SDCRDCF/ISM780C/ISM780

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 17:50:50 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon)
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
>>he has some drive, some discipline.  But when taken to Corwin's
>>pattern he doesn't go in cause he is in a hurry to get back to
>>class.  And there is no mention of him coming back, say that
>>night.  He passed up a major chance at getting more power.  He
>>just never seemed to have gotten around to walking the second
>>pattern.
>>     Have I missed something?
>
>       I agree.  Had I been in Merlin's shoes I would certainly
>have walked Corwin's Pattern as soon as I could arrange some
>unobserved (by Fiona at least) time.  However, I believe that
>Merlin walking Corwin's Pattern will somehow lead to a reunion with
>Corwin - Zelazney is just milking the 'Where the hell is Corwin?'
>question for all its worth.  Eventually (two or maybe three years
>from now) Merlin will walk Corwin's Pattern in a future Amber
>novel.  I wish Zelazny would publish a bit faster.

Merlin hasn't walked Corwin's pattern yet because he's been rather
busy lately.  Even if he could find the odd hour in which to walk
it, he isn't in a position where making his life even MORE
complicated is going to help.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 17:54:36 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon)
Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment

Don't forget that Dworkin's apartment is right next to the Primal
Pattern (down the cave, past Wixer; you can't miss it). This would
make Trumping in far easier than shifting shadows.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 17:30:33 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber (Zelazney)

LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU writes:
>       Did you ever read Jack of Shadows?  Jack is inside a jewel
>hung about the neck of the Lord of the Bats, who is in the jewel
>with Jack, giving an infinite recursion.

I remember.  That was a great book...

>       Final point.  Remember what it means, at least according to
>Dworkin, when you inscribe a Pattern?  You become it, it becomes
>you.  Your injuries are its injuries, its injuries are yours, but
>you can't be hurt unless it is first, and it can't be hurt unless
>you are first, etc.  Of course, Dworkin made a slight
>miscalculation, in that the blood of his descendants could also
>hurt his Pattern, but...Anyway, considering all that, what does
>Corwin's having created a Pattern REALLY mean?  Is he now
>invulnerable...?

Hmmm.  Perhaps a little hyperbole on Dworkin's part...  He later
says that he can destroy Amber by walking the pattern then stabbing
himself.  Doesn't sound very invulnerable to me...

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 21:15:12 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability

I've noticed several places where people assert that the "genes" of
Chaos spawn are what allows them to shapeshift.  What makes any of
you think that "genes" have anything to do with Chaos?  Genetic LAWS
aren't relevant to beings from a place where only traditions have
any continuing power.

Incidentally, someone complained that Merlin shouldn't have been
able to grow up in the time alloted.  Sure he could.  Time only
flows at a single rate in a place dominated by (you got it) NATURAL
LAWS!  Chaos has very little in the way of natural law.

A final comment.  This discussion apparently went on inside DEC a
few years back when Trumps of Doom came out.  An upshot of that
discussion reported to me was the theory that the Courts of Chaos
are one of several "places" that manifested some form of stable
reality and that other "places" could also exist, like the "place"
where Dworkin stood when he inscribed the Pattern of Amber.  There
are a number of other "real places" and the Shadows were asserted to
have ORGANIZED around the polarity between Amber and the Courts of
Chaos, rather than to have been created by the manifestation of the
Pattern.

Has anything been revealed about how the Logrus was created?  Or did
it just happen?

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 86 12:11:48 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: Zelazny

A couple of points:

(1) Ganelon is of course from the legend of Roland as retold in The
    Song of Roland. Ganelon was a famous traitor whose actions led
    to Roland's death; he is also a traitor to, umm, Uther, in
    Zelazny's books.

(2) Real genetics is much more complicated than the simple
    Dominant-Recessive pairs that you learn about in high school
    biology. There could be a great many reasons why shape-changing
    is not inherited in such a simple manner, not the least being
    something magical and not biological!

Name:            Laurence Raphael Brothers
Organization:    Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey
Uucp-Address:    topaz!brothers
Internet-Address:brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
Bell-Address:    {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790}
Postal-Address:  BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 86 0955-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #346
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 346

Today's Topics:

                Television - Battlestar Galactica &
                        Blake's 7 (5 msgs) &
                        Secret Agent (2 msgs) & 
                        Star Trek (5 msgs) &
                        Star Blazers &
                        Anthologies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 22:26:27 EDT
From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Battlestar Galactica

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got
from the first book in the novelization was that the cylons were an
*organic* race, and not machines at all!

Michael McClennen

------------------------------

Date: 10 October 1986 08:33:46 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7: the character of Avon

>Now can you see this character opening himself up to another
>person, as he would be forced to do in any relationship?  (At least
>as I have painted him.)  I really can't.  Avon is a loner.  Let's
>say 'Avon doesn't care for girls, he really doesn't care for
>anyone/anything except himself.'
>
>The one time that totally disagrees with this is the episode
>featuring Horizon, whose title I forget.  In it Avon SHOULD have
>said Goodbye.  (Without needing the rationalization of the three
>pursuit ships closing in.)  Or actually, he wouldn't have even have
>said that, it would have simply been 'Zen, plot and execute an
>evasion course.'  And the series would have been over.

I haven't seen the episode (referred to above) yet, but I do recall
that Avon was in love with the woman Anna Grant, and even went so
far as to attempt revenge on the person who he thought had killed
her, but when...well, if you saw "Rumors of Death" you know what
happened, but if you haven't yet I won't spoil it.

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 86 9:48:07 EDT
From: "Darrell Ringler"  <dringler@ardec>
Subject: RE: Blakes7...

     Does anyone on the net have an episode guide for Blakes7 for
the entire run of the series? I believe there was 4 seasons to the
show, but a Starlog Television Episode Guide I have only lists 3 of
the 4 seasons. If someone does have a list of all of the shows could
they somehow get it to the archives at Rutgers maybe? I don't
remember seeing a Blakes7 episode guide in the archives the last
time I looked there.

Darrell Ringler
ARPAnet: <dringler@ardec>

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 13:25:35 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7

While the BBC was **habitually** late telling anyone that B7 was
returning (even though it got consistently good ratings), Gareth
Thomas *did* do two seasons & *might* even have continued if he
hadn't been offered what he felt was a better acting opportunity.
If he had stayed, we might have seen Avon get killed off by Blake.
Incidently all of the third season cast and crew thought that
"Terminal" would be the last show -- until the night it *aired* &
the BBC announced "join us next year for further adventure of B7."
What a way to run a network!  BTW Terry Nation has a theory that
Science Fiction is a *very* difficult thing for the BBC to handle,
as it doesn't fall into one of their neat pigeon hole slots for tv
shows.

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 17:39:56 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Blake's Seven Information

From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
> Can anyone give me a rough breakdown of the the 4(?) seasons of
> Blake's Seven (number of episodes/season, # actors in the crew,
> etc ...).  I am currently watching what I think is the third
> season (Avon in charge of the ship, different opening credits,
> etc.).  No spoilers, please ...

Rich -- if I tell you even the NUMBER of actors in the crew in the
episode it could be a spoiler.  I have that info -- and I also have
names if you wnat it and can give me a UUCP path that I can use I'll
email it to you.  In the meantime, these are the episodes that have
been made to date with their original air date.  Listing of "Blake's
7" shows:

First year (Series A)
The Way Back (1/2/78)
Spacefall (1/9/78)
Cygnus Alpha (1/16/78)
Time Squad (1/23/78)
The Web (1/30/78)
Seek-Locate-Destroy (2/6/78)
Mission To Destiny (2/13/78)
Duel (2/20/78)
Project Avalon (2/27/78)
Breakdown (3/6/78)
Bounty (3/13/78)
Deliverance (3/20/78)
Orac (3/27/78)

Second year (Series B)
Redemption (1/9/79)
Shadow (1/16/79)
Weapon (1/23/79)
Horizon (1/30/79)
Pressure Point (2/6/79)
Trial (2/13/79)
Killer (2/20/79)
Hostage (2/27/79)
Countdown (3/6/79)
Voice From The Past (3/13/79)
Gambit (3/20/79)
The Keeper (3/27/79)
Star One (4/3/79)

Third year (Series C)
Aftermath (1/7/80)
Powerplay (1/14/80)
Volcano (1/21/80)
Dawn Of The Gods (1/28/80)
The Harvest of Kairos (2/4/80)
The City At The Edge Of The World (2/11/80)
Children Of Auron (2/19/80)
Rumours Of Death (2/25/80)
Sarcophagus (3/3/80)
Ultraworld (3/10/80)
Moloch (3/17/80)
Death-Watch (3/24/80)
Terminal (3/31/80)

Fourth year (Series D)
Rescue (9/28/81)
Power (10/5/81)
Traitor (10/12/81)
Stardrive (10/19/81)
Animals (10/26/81)
Headhunter (11/2/81)
Assassin (11/9/81)
Games (11/16/81)
Sand (11/23/81)
Gold (11/30/81)
Orbit (12/7/81)
Warlord (12/14/81)
Blake (12/21/81)

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 17:32:33 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7: the character of Avon

From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson
>>Now can you see this character opening himself up to another
>>person, as he would be forced to do in any relationship?  (At
>>least as I have painted him.)  I really can't.  Avon is a loner.
>>Let's say 'Avon doesn't care for girls, he really doesn't care for
>>anyone/anything except himself.'
>>(reference to "Horizon")
>
>I haven't seen the episode (referred to above) yet, but I do recall
>that Avon was in love with the woman Anna Grant, and even went so
>far as to attempt revenge on the person who he thought had killed
>her, but when...well, if you saw "Rumors of Death" you know what
>happened, but if you haven't yet I won't spoil it.

Yes -- watch the ending of "Rumors of Death" & tell me that this man
doesn't *care* about someone.  Also -- in "Sarcaphogus" (sp?) he
apparently is concerned enough about Cally to come to her cabin to
make sure she's OK.  Sure he *seems* cold and unfeeling as far as
the 'softer' emotions are concerned, but he sure can get angry &
people who get angry are not really passionless people.  He's just
got real good walls -- after all, just looking at the series, how
many times has/is he betrayed by someone he thinks he can trust?

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 86 15:00 pst
From: "lamont steve%a.sdscnet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: "Prisoner"/Secret Agent trivia

The song "Secret Agent Man" was done by Johnny Rivers.  About 1965
or thereabouts, if memory serves.  I think Devo did a cover version
of it (which I liked much better) in about 1979.

  By the way, although I'm not certain of this, the Johnny Rivers
theme appeared to be added on for American consumption.  There was
also a neat sort of Vivaldish harpsichord theme that opened the show
that I've always liked.  Can hum it to this day...

  This may be getting a bit far afield for this net but does anyone
remember another McGoohan spy-type called (methinks) "Danger Man?"
It might even have been earlier episodes of SA.  Or am I confused
with something else.  Would've been out in about '64 or '65 (if
anyone on this net is greybeared enuff to remember back that
far...).

spl

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 08:09:37 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SECRET AGENT
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

I understand that in England the series Secret Agent was known as
Danger Man, and that the cartoon Dangermouse was a take-off of the
show.  I enjoy them both.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 15:18:00 GMT
From: friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  No Century of Progress

Why do you say there is virtually no social change between our
century and that of Star Trek?  A lot of social attitudes are
postulated to have improved by the time of ST: racial and gender
equality, for example.  (I know that some fans consider ST to be
male dominated, but several of the more definitive novels -- e.g.,
the Vonda McIntyre novels of the ST movies -- postulate female ship
captains and admirals.)  Even more important, I think, is the
apparent lack of warfare between nations of Earth.  One of the most
frequently cited attractions of ST is its optimistic view of future
society.

As for technological change, one doesn't expect the average citizen
of any planet to be making daily use of its most advanced technology
(when's the last time you got your hands on a nuclear reactor?).  As
someone pointed out already, matter/antimatter power generation is
not necessarity inexpensive in the ST society.  And on what evidence
do you assume that much or even most power on ST's Earth is NOT
generated by this means?  (I don't recall seeing any generating
plants in any of the TV episodes, movies, or even the novels.)  Some
of the novels make the (credible, to me) point that transporter use
is a bit too expensive for routine planet-bound use except by the
military.  And many of the other advanced technologies are not
necessarily applicable to daily planet-bound life.  On the other
hand, take note of Kirk's arrival in San Francisco at the
beginning of ST-TMP.  Doesn't exactly look like a BART station to
me.  (But maybe that's what BART will become in 200 years or so.)
:-)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 86 00:16:07 GMT
From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

Paramount has announced that the new STAR TREK series is for real.
There will be a two hour "telefilm" and 24 one hour episodes
produced for the 1987 television season.

I'm sure that all readers of this group will want to see the program
be as good as possible, and I think the best way to ensure that is
by having good writers.  What would really be great is if episodes
were written by recent Hugo and Nebula award winning authors.

I'm urging all of you, as I have already done, to write a letter to
Paramount Pictures Television, and let them know that you think that
good writing is the most important aspect of this new STAR TREK
series.  Do it!  For lack of a better address, I just sent my letter
to Hollywood, CA (it'll get there), but if anybody has a better
address, please don't hesitate to post it.  But don't wait for that
-- send your letter now!

Think of how good the show *could be* versus how bad it *probably
will be* if we all just sit around on our duffs.

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM
rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 02:59:06 GMT
From: isis!dragheb@caip.rutgers.edu (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

gmp@rayssd.UUCP (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
>Paramount has announced that the new STAR TREK series is for real.
>There will be a two hour "telefilm" and 24 one hour episodes
>produced for the 1987 television season.
>
>I'm sure that all readers of this group will want to see the
>program be as good as possible, and I think the best way to ensure
>that is by having good writers.  What would really be great is if
>episodes were written by recent Hugo and Nebula award winning
>authors.
>
>I'm urging all of you, as I have already done, to write a letter to
>Paramount Pictures Television, and let them know that you think
>that good writing is the most important aspect of this new STAR
>TREK series.  Do it!  For lack of a better address, I just sent my
>letter to Hollywood, CA (it'll get there), but if anybody has a
>better address, please don't hesitate to post it.  But don't wait
>for that -- send your letter now!
>
>Think of how good the show *could be* versus how bad it *probably
>will be* if we all just sit around on our duffs.

I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something else.
The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one thing:
The Enterprise
Capt. Kirk
Mr. Spock
Scotty
Bones
Chekov
Uhura
Sulu
etc.

Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek).

I am not saying that the new program will be crap (but it might
be...all indications of present network philosophy point to that
being the case): but they should not (must not) name it Star Trek.

UUCP: {hplabs, seismo}!hao!isis!dragheb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 14:19 EDT
From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: New Star Trek episodes

Several days ago in my usual early morning semi-consciousness, I
heard on the news that they were going to be making new Star Trek
episodes.  These will be made with a completely different cast.  I
wasn't even sure I had really heard this until I talked to my
brother on the phone and he told me he had read the same in the
paper.

Has anyone else heard about this?  Is Roddenberry going to produce
it?  I can't imagine he'd sell whatever rights he has to the show,
or that it would be successful without him.  Comments anyone?

Thanks,

Kaile Goodman

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 17:50 EST
From: JESUP RANDELL                 <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek lives again.

   I heard a news story over the weekend about a NEW Star Trek
series, produced (and maybe directed) by Gene Roddenberry.  It will
be on independant stations, and will not be a continuation of the
old series.  None of the original ST actors will be in it, from what
I gleaned.
  Anybody have any more precise info?

Randell Jesup
Jesup@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 20:20:24 GMT
From: GB3@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: UFO and Star Blazers

      Okay, so I'm into this cartoon called Star Blazers.  What I
want to know is is there any other fans out there we should know of.
I am also looking for an episode guide and any info on merchandise
and/or fan clubs.  Also I'm looking for a UFO episode guide.  Also
one more thing, is Star Blazers available on videotape??  Thanx.

Gary L. Bredbenner (GB3 at PSUVMA)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 86 23:24:25 GMT
From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard)
Subject: Re: Review: TV Anthologies

> chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad)
>>ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper)
>>
>>     TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE presented "The Circus," a fairly
>>predictable story about a weird circus. . .  Though predictable,
>>it was well-acted . . .
>
>I heartily agree that William Hickey did an excellent job in this
>show.  Otherwise it was somewhat predictable.

 What's the most commonly used word in the above?  What's the most
commonly voiced criticism of this show?  Predictability.
Admittedly, there's a fine line between predictability and suspense,
but Tales from the Predictable Side is way, way over on the wrong
side of that line.  I have yet to watch an episode of this show
where I couldn't tell you the ending (in some degree of detail)
within ten minutes.


Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
{boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Oct 86 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #347
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 347

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Brin & Cameron & Clancy &
                    Finney & Sturgeon & Weisbecker &
                    Counter Earth & Mistakes in Printing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 19:28:13 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony

                      RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony
                         Tor, 1986 (1973c)
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I hadn't read any Anthony for a while, but this looked like it
might be an alternate history novel, and I did like some of his
earlier works (I didn't realize at the time that this *was8 one of
his earlier works).

     Well, my recommendation on this is that you pass it up.  Aimed
(it seems) at a teen-aged audience, it seems to consist of all those
wonderful racial and sexual stereotypes that you had hoped science
fiction had gotten rid of (at least I *hope* you hoped they had
gotten rid of them).  The message that Anthony is putting out is
that racial purity is necessary to species vitality and, by
extension, that miscegenation is bad.  Anthony apparently thinks
that racial lines are clear-cut and that the current racial groups
are somehow internally "pure."  That is horse-puckey and so is the
book.


Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 12:02:34 edt
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: The Postman

                     The Postman, by David Brin

It is finally out in paperback.  I found it on Saturday and read it
at one sitting.  In my opinion, it is one of the best SF novels of
the year.

The story is the familiar post-nuclear-war one: things fall apart,
and slowly get put back together.  However, there are several new
twists to the old plot, and the way things begin to get put back
together is both plausible and thought-provoking.

There are technical flaws.  As with some of Brin's other works, the
plot sometimes begins to unravel; there are digressions that lead
nowhere, incidents that just happen, without seeming purpose, and so
on.  But the book's virtues are such that the story comes through,
and with great impact.

Why, though, is this work science fiction?  After all, there is no
technical gadgetry, no aliens or spaceships, and the setting is very
near-future only to allow the author to suppose a collapse of some
kind.  But I think it is SF, and for reasons that, for me, provide
some insight into what SF really is.

First, the book fits the tag "the idea as hero".  There are good
people and bad people, cowardly and heroic acts, but there is no
"hero figure", no competent protagonist who drives the plot.  Gordon
himself is no hero - he has many human failings and a persistent
self-doubt.  As the title says, the hero is "The Postman"; or,
rather, the concept that the postman embodies, of communication
between groups as an agent of cohesion.

Secondly, the book is optimistic.  Not in the shallow sense:
everything doesn't turn out for the best, the ending is a pause in a
process of reconstruction that clearly still might fail completely;
defeat lurks in the wings.  But it is optimistic in a much deeper
sense: one of its themes is that our Western civilization is
basically right; that the long vision of science - the understanding
of Nature, and the harnessing of that understanding to improve the
human condition - is a good and noble endeavour.  And if there is
any common theme behind SF, surely it is that one.

I found this an enjoyable book, and more - a moving book

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 11:01 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Mushroom Planet

> undiscovered moon of earth, in orbit much farther out than Luna

As I recall, it was much closer to Earth; that's why they could get
there in a homemade ship.

Brett (Slocum at hi-multics.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Oct 86 19:19:28 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: "Science fiction"
To: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU

From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
>Tom Clancy, the author of Hunt for Red October and Red Storm
>Rising, was interviewed on National Public Radio's All Things
>Considered last week.  He said that every device and {_technology
>used in his books already exists, and that he "doesn't want to
>write science fiction."  Don't get me wrong - the books are superb,
>both the can't-put-down variety.  I just thought it interesting
>that Clancy doesn't consider them science fiction or futuristic.

  He was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate sense.
Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean "that's
impossible".
  Actually, GOOD science fiction of course consist of things which
are NOT impossible.  Clancy was just trying to say that he writes
GOOD science fiction, and since he has fallen for the Harper's
propaganda that all science fiction is bad, he feels he has to call
his works something else.
  This is an unfortunate trend.  He is not the first "mundane"
writer to write on topics formerly relegated to the SF "ghetto".  I
hope he has not fallen into the trap that most of them fall into,
i.e. thinking that he has come up with a new idea - an idea that has
been old hat in the SF world since the 1930s.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 19:28:03 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Commentary on Jack Finney

                         The Good Old Days
                    Comments by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I just finished reading two books by Jack Finney: TIME AND
AGAIN (Warner, 1974 (1970c)) and ABOUT TIME (Fireside, 1986).  The
former is a novel; the latter is a collection of short stories.
Jack Finney is known (if not by name) to a generation of young
adults as the author of "Of Missing Persons," a staple in most
junior high school and high school readers that I've seen and
included in ABOUT TIME.  That's the story of the man who finds a
travel agent who will send him to Verna, an idyllic paradise of
forests, streams, and only "good" technology--there are washing
machines, but no television.  But he only gets one chance.  Finney
has also had several other stories which have been much
anthologized, including another story from this collection, "The
Third Level."

     If one were to characterize Finney, one would probably call him
"Bradbury-esque."  His short stories are often set in rural
Illinois, and he spends a lot of time yearning for the "good old
days."  In "Where the Cluetts Are," a new house built from Victorian
plans somehow drifts back in time and the occupants spend their
hours playing croquet and sipping lemonade, then strolling into
their mansion lit with flickering gaslight.  Sounds great, right?
Finney can make it sound so enticing--until you ask yourself what
sort of plumbing the house has, and whether the occupants will get
scarlet fever, and how they preserve their food.  Such picky little
details are avoided in Finney's nostalgia.  "I Love Galesburg in the
Springtime" is another story about how peaceful things were and how
wonderful it is that a new factory isn't being built in town, since
that would ruin the atmosphere.  (The point-of-view character is
employed, of course; one wonders what the jobless of the town would
have to say if they were asked.)

     Though ABOUT TIME is billed as a collection of time travel
stories, several of them have nothing to do with time travel.  "Of
Missing Persons" is one; others include "The Coin Collector,"
"Lunch-Hour Magic," and "Home Alone."  In most of these Finney isn't
so hooked on his anti-technology schtick--in "Lunch-Hour Magic" he
even shows some of the benefits of advanced technology--and I found
these more enjoyable.  Finney's romantic (or perhaps I should say,
romanticist) writing style is a joy to read.

     In TIME AND AGAIN, Simon Morley is just an average guy when he
is recruited for a top-secret project: he is going to go back in
time.  The reason is not clear.  He is told not to interfere, though
that restriction seems to ease up as the novel moves along.  His
time travel method is similar to the one Matheson used in SOMEWHERE
IN TIME; he puts himself in an environment devoid of 1970's
technology, or for that matter, any technology since 1882.  And he
hypnotizes himself into going back.  The novel is really Finney's
portrayal of life in the 1880's in New York.  He is too tied up with
the wonder of the city to spend much time on characterization or
plot (though there is a rudimentary mystery).  If you're not a fan
of loving descriptions of life a hundred years ago, you could skip
this.  (If you are, by the way, I recommend Mark Helprin's WINTER'S
TALE.)

     Jack Finney seems determined to pick up where Bradbury left off
in the paean to those wonderful days of yesteryear when life was
simpler and things were better.  The back blurb of TIME AND AGAIN
even says "Would you like to travel back in time to a better,
simpler world?"  However, my tolerance for "good old days" stories
is rapidly wearing thin, probably because the more the Moral
Majority (or whatever they're calling themselves these days) tells
me how I should want a return to the old-fashioned values, the more
I remember all the baggage that came with them.

     Although Finney gives a nod to such advances as antibiotics,
antiseptics, and anesthesia, he seems more interested in emphasizing
the pollution, injustice, and pettiness of the present.  Simon
Morley even says, "We had a chance to do justice to our Negroes, and
when they asked it, we refused.  In Asia we burned people alive, we
really did.  We allow children to grow up malnourished in the United
States."  But Morley seems to have forgotten that every generation
since the 1600's has had the chance to do justice--and didn't.  He
has forgotten the Inquisition and the witch trials in England during
the Protectorate.  He has forgotten that through most of history
most people have grown up malnourished--if they grew up at all.  One
of the things the government agent tells Morley helps him pinpoint
the year as 1970 instead of 1882 is the way that Morley and a
passing Negro would "eye each other warily."  Ah, yes, things were
so much better back in 1882 when those other people knew their
places.  (That's sarcasm, folks.)  Suffice it to say that while
Finney writes these stories well, I can't bring myself to really
like them.  Like TOM O'BEDLAM, the writing style can't overcome my
distaste for the world-view that Finney presents.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 19:27:53 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: GODBODY by Theodore Sturgeon

                    GODBODY by Theodore Sturgeon
                        Donald I. Fine, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Sturgeon's last novel is pure Sturgeon.  It's full of
Sturgeon's philosophy of love and humanity.  The characters are real
and you feel as if you might meet them just around the next corner.
But much as I want to, and as much as every one else is, I cannot
whole-heartedly recommend this book.  It's all a bit too obvious.
Anyone who tries to write a story centered around a Christ-figure
needs to do something different to keep it from being predictable,
and this applies even to Sturgeon.

     GODBODY is enjoyable reading.  Sturgeon's message of love is
appealing but when you boil it down it's the same story as last
time.  While perhaps not as overdone in science fiction as the "Adam
and Eve" scenario, the "Messiah with a message" story has become a
standard and as such I find it hard to get excited over it this
time.  My recent reading has led me to conclude that I am beginning
to develop a serious dislike for old themes, no matter how well
done.  If you don't have this reaction, then I recommend this book.
If you do...well, read it anyway.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 19:27:46 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: COSMIC BANDITOS by A. C. Weisbecker

                COSMIC BANDITOS by A. C. Weisbecker
                           Vintage, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The tag-line ("A Contrabandista's Quest for the Meaning of
Life") and the blurb makes this sound like a rip-off of/tribute to
HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY.  (Isn't it odd how a well-done
work is a tribute, while a hack work is a tribute?)  Well, it is and
it isn't.

     At the start of the book, the narrator, his friend Jose, and
his dog High Pockets are in hiding in the Columbian jungle.  They
had been trying to eke out a humble living as fantastically wealthy
and dissolute Dope Lords, but a few things went wrong....  And then
a few more things....  Having as a partner someone who believes that
"there are very few personal problems which can't be solved by a
suitable application of high explosives" didn't help.

     About a third of the way into the book you suddenly find
yourself in the midst of some serious discussions of quantum physics
and the conflict between the particle theory and the wave theory of
light.  If this sounds strange to you, imagine how it sounded to the
contrabandistas after a few magic mushrooms.  Eventually you
discover that the plot itself is an example of the "new physics" in
ways which are best discovered for yourself.

     This book defies description.  It is a comedy, but it is also a
treatise on quantum physics and a book about drug dealing and who
knows what else.  You will almost certainly get something out of it,
though it may not be what you expected to get out of it.  As if
these weren't reason enough, you should read it for the
thought-provoking quotes from well-known scientists sprinkled
through it, such as Einstein's "God does not play dice with the
universe" and Hawking's rejoiner, "Not only does God play dice with
the universe, but sometimes He throws them where they cannot be
seen."  However, I can't help but feel that the author and the
proof-reader were both high on the leftovers of Mr. Quantum's
stash--Gary Zukav, the author of THE DANCING WU LI MASTERS, is
quoted several times, and each time his name is misspelled "Zukov,"
and for some reason Jose's name has no accent mark.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 12:13 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: theme story request (counter-earth)

     There was also a novel dating from about 1981.  It didn't
involve Earth, but an earthlike planet which was mysteriously
inhabited by English- speaking humans living in a real 1950's-gauche
kind of dictatorship.  The planet was called (ha ha) Vax, and its
counter-earth, where everything was peace and love and bunny
rabbits, was called Mirrorvax by the astronaut who discovered it.  I
wouldn't call it literature, but it is probably a good example of
the theme.

Mary Malmros
Smith College
MANAGER@SMITH (bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 11:04 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

Well, this isn't proofreading, but I have a copy of deCamp's _Lest
Darkness Falls_ that is missing about a chapter's worth which is
replaced by about a chapter of a Gor novel.  How's that for a great
mix-up.

Brett (Slocum at hi-multics.arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Oct 86 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #348
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 348

Today's Topics:

       Miscellaneous - Ansible & Diversity & Storing Books &
               Weapons Policies at Conventions (3 msgs) &
               Ringworld

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 Oct 86 00:11:01-EDT
From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA>
Subject: ansible

The ansible appears in several of LeGuin's novels.  I remember it in
"Rocannon's World", "The Word for World is Forest" and "Left Hand of
Darkness", and no doubt it appears elsewhere in her work.

However, its original appearance (historically, at least, if not in
the order she wrote the novels) is in "The Dispossessed", which I
regard as one of the finest novels she has written.  It is first
mentioned there at the top of page 222 of my paperback edition
(Avon, 1975).  One of Shevek's acquaintenances says to him,
      "By the way, did you see the latest 'Bulletin of the Space
   Research Foundation'?  They print Reumere's plans for the ansible."
      "What is the ansible?"
      "It's what he's calling an instantaneous communication device."

There's no further explanation of the word.  Later, Shevek completes
the physics research necessary to make it possible.

Although the Hainish novels form a more or less consistent universe,
I have the strong feeling that there are contradictions.  In "The
Dispossessed" earth is a ruined world, but I have the strong memory
that it is OK in another novel.  Is anyone's memory better than
mine?

Art Evans

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 17:06:10 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Diversity (was Re: Asimov and Ellison and "Ego")

>    Should we question the value of the works of Hemmingway or
> Dylan Thomas because they were alcoholics? Oscar Wilde because he
> was a homosexual? Lewis Carroll because he was a pedophile? The
> greatest writers of all time were great because their flawed
> personalities allowed them to look at the world in a way we
> "normal" people can't imagine.

I can't let this pass.  What makes you think that being a homosexual
means you have a flawed personality?  Or that you're not normal,
since you seem to be implying that "normal" means "correct" rather
than "what the majority does."  I'll admit that homosexuals are in
the minority.  So are Jews.  Does that mean we're not normal?

To me, one of the big pluses of science fiction is the emphasis on
the diversity of the universe.  It gives its readers a sense that
things are not the same everywhere, that there are different
cultures, different ideas, different philosophies, different mores.
So I am doubly distressed when a science fiction fan (and I presume
the people who read/post to this group are fans) displays
insensitivity and even dislike to the diversity around us.  The
world would be a pretty dull place if we were all clones, wouldn't
it?

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 03:21 EDT
From: Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Storing SF books

Well, there has to be a tie to SF somewhere....

This should reach at least one librarian who should know.  Please
copy you answer directly to me, as I do not consistantly read the
mailing list.

The people I live with, in Phoenix, Arizona, are enclosing their
garage to build a library.  The books have multiplied to fill the
other room in the house.  The problem is that the garage is neither
heated or cooled.

In winter, this is no problem.  Temperature will range from 40 to 70
F and humidity average about 40-60 percent.

In summer, as is, inside temperature will range from 100 to 140 F,
humidity from 5 to 20 percent.  I don't think this will be very good
for the books.

We have two reasonable choices: A vent fan will bring the
temperature down to 100 to 120 range, humidity still 5 to 20
percent.  (We have practical experience living on another planet.)
Or, an evaporative cooler will bring the temperature down to 70 to
90 F, but raise the humidity to the 40 to 80% range.

Critical question, which will be better for the long term storage of
books?

Thanks,
Paul
Schauble at MIT-Multics

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 15:20:20 GMT
From: grc97!hurst@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Hurst)
Subject: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions

I am a science fiction fan of long standing and have been attending
conventions regularly for several years. I have noticed a trend in
the last year or so regarding weapons and weapons policies which
bothers me greatly.  This has been the increasingly strict
restrictions on the carrying and display of weapons.

Years ago, there didn't seem to be any problem at all. Weapons
policies generally consisted of statements like, "you kill it, you
eat it." Since then, the restrictions have been increasing. At
worldcon this year, things just got way out of hand. I don't have
the con program with me as I write this, but the weapons policy
consisted of something like the following:

   No weapons. The con committee reserves the right to be totally
   and completely arbitrary in deciding what is and is not a weapon.

Let me tell you, the enforcement of this policy reached new heights
in ridiculousness. I talked to a person who had spent quite some
time putting together a Ghostbusters costume, complete with the
backpack linear particle accelerator gun. This was constructed out
of old vacuum cleaner parts. He was asked by the con com not to wear
it because it resembled a weapon too much. Another friend of mine
very compliantly did not wear his Japanese katana and wakazashi with
his futuristic samurai costume. Instead, he bought boken from
Ironmonger. He was asked by the con com, almost immediately after
buying them to take the boken to his room and not wear them. He did
so, reluctantly. He then constructed _cardboard_ replicas of the
boken. The con com then asked him not to display these either. I
understand that Tulio's Isher weapons were also not allowed. I do
know that Tulio's sales suffered tremendously at the convention.

Anyway, enough of the anecdotes. I would like to pose some questions
to the people on the net about weapons and weapons policies.

1) Do you think that carrying and displaying weapons as part of a
   costume at a convention is an integral part of your enjoyment of
   the event?
2) Do you think that weapons should not be a part of science fiction
   conventions at all?
3) Do you think that recent weapons policies have been too
   restrictive /not restrictive enough? Why or why not?
4) Do you think that the weapons policies should be changed? How
   should they be changed?
5) What has been your experience with weapons and weapons policies
   at various conventions?
6) What are your opinions on this issue? How do you think it should
   be handled?

I would appreciate responses being directed to my mailbox:

{ihnp4,chinet}!grc97!hurst

I know that there have been various fannish incidents. I know that
there are people who find it offensive to be confronted with people
carrying weapons. I find it offensive that such people think that
they should constrain my freedom because of it. Clearly there is a
problem, but I think that the con coms at the various conventions
have handled it in a way which is expedient for them, but in a way
which is acceptable to all.

I am trying to foster intelligent discussion on this issue, not
flames.  Flaming about this only reduces your credibility and
accomplishes nothing positive. So please try to be rational in
discussing it. Talk to people.  Ask them what they think. Then, tell
us about it.

I am organizing a panel at Windycon on this exact issue. The people
on this panel will consist of a member of the Windycon con com, a
person from the hotel, preferably head of security, Ironmonger Jim,
a pro-weapons fan, an anti-weapons fan, and a moderator. I would
like to hear what people have to say. If you're at Windycon, please,
attend the panel. Tell us what you think. If you won't be at
Windycon, speak up now, so that I have some additional data to go
on.

I would like to effect a change. In the best of all possible worlds,
I would like to see people act in a responsible manner toward
themselves and toward those around them. This may not be possible or
even realistic. But I think that we can create a workable solution.

David Hurst
Gould Research Center
email:  ...{chinet,ihnp4}!grc97!hurst
phone:  (312) 640-2044

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 07:23:24 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions

hurst@grc97.UUCP (Dave Hurst) writes:
>Anyway, enough of the anecdotes. I would like to pose some
>questions to the people on the net about weapons and weapons
>policies.

>1) Do you think that carrying and displaying weapons as part of a
>costume at a convention is an integral part of your enjoyment of
>the event?

After the vandalism shown at Equicon '82 [?], my suggestion of a
'PeaceCon' fell on approving ears.  I do not believe that any of my
costumes require an obvious weapon to complete their effect.

>2) Do you think that weapons should not be a part of science
>fiction conventions at all?

I think the time has come for us to rethink our standards for
acceptable hall costumes.  Peace bonding was originated by costumers
to prevent loud mouthed kids from running down the halls with their
expensive props.  That could also inflict great pain to others.

>3) Do you think that recent weapons policies have been too
>restrictive / not restrictive enough? Why or why not?

Oh good, a simple question. :-) Policies vary slightly and mostly
track the size of the convention and the responsiblities of the
ConCom to the hotel.

>4) Do you think that the weapons policies should be changed? How
>should they be changed?

The worldcon policy you stated should have allowed weapons on stage
during the masqurade but otherwise I see no problem with a con that
large asking for a total ban on casual display of realistic weapons.
I suggest you ask your local police department has to say 'in the
letter of the law' about the visable display of realistic weapons in
public.

>5) What has been your experience with weapons and weapons policies
>at various conventions?

My stints as Security Chairman has usually resulted in a policy of
"Don't do dumb stuff."  Or, it's a privilege to attend this
convention and even though you are a guest and a member, don't ruin
it for everyone else.

>6) What are your opinions on this issue? How do you think it should
>be handled?

Attended meeting of your local conventions.  Learn about the
problems with hotel and insurance and the law.  Think of solutions.
Create props that are not weapons and get the cons to approve them
BEFORE the con occurs.

>I am organizing a panel at Windycon on this exact issue. The people
>on this panel will consist of a member of the Windycon con com, a
>person from the hotel, preferably head of security, Ironmonger Jim,
>a pro-weapons fan, an anti-weapons fan, and a moderator.

Good, This sounds like an excellent idea.

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc]
BIX:  victoro
Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro
People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro
Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 13:59:32 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions

I know you asked for email replies, but this is the kind of
discussion that should be on the net, so let's start (and let's keep
it civil!)

I speak on this subject from the point of view of a convention
chairman, having chaired 8 between 1975 and 1985, ranging in size
from 600-1300 people.  I have also entered masquerades, and worn
costumes with weapons as part of them.  Enough setup.

In an ideal world, there would need be no weapons policies at
conventions.  Those carrying weapons would be responsible.  Those
not carrying would be understanding.  This is not an ideal world.

There are two problems, from a con committee standpoint, to weapons
carrying (this is stream of conciousness, so a third may come up
later).

1)There are irresponsible weapons carriers out there who brandish
  weapons, treat them carelessly, and thereby, risk hurting
  themselves and others at the convention.  Most conventions run on
  a shoestring and can't afford a lawsuit.  Besides, hurting people
  is bad (Honest!).  It is unfortunate that responsible weapons
  carriers must be restricted because of a few fools, but that is
  reality at sf cons these days.

  Now, some might say, "let us carry weapons until we break some
  rule" (brandishing a sword, playing blaster battle).  If someone
  gets hurt, after is too late...sorry.

2)We (the fen at a convention) share the hotel with many other
  people (the Mundanes).  These people cannot necessarily tell a
  blaster from a .45, a rubber knife in a scabbard from the real
  thing.  At one of the conventions I ran, a woman in a "princess
  Leia" outfit complete with blaster went to McDonalds.  Ten minutes
  later, the police showed up.  One of the customers had reported "a
  woman in a white dress with a gun."  Con committees don't need
  these kind of hassles.

Having said this, there ARE right and wrong ways to enforce weapons
rules.  The right way is to inform the membership in advance, on
flyers and progress reports, of your policy.  Then, at the
convention, be firm and polite. 99 and 44/100 percent of people will
respond to politeness.  The "a weapon is what the committee says is
a weapon" rule happened to prevent arguments such as the one you saw
(I was there too) at Worldcon.  As a guest of the hotel and the con
committee you must obey their rules.  The alternative is not
attending.  In addition, in Worldcon's case, there is the
alternative of taking up weapons policy at the business meeting.

There are assholes on both sides (pro and anti weapons).  There are
many flavors of weapons policy (I like the "keep it in the
scabbard/holster" with peace bonding rule).  On either side, keep
the discussion civil, and if necessary, vote with your feet.

I hope this gets the discussion off to a fruitful start.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 00:05:51 GMT
From: rubin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Rubin)
Subject: Re: R/R-WORLD:  DATA

A general question on ringworlds: what keeps 'em from collapsing
across the WIDTH of the ring, like a stepped-on tuna fish can?
There is a lot of mass around the edges, and each rim attracts the
other in an attempt to become an accretion disk.  Solar gravity
(i.e. tidal force) also pulls slightly toward the midline.  Scrith
may be unreasonably strong (in tension) but not infinitely strong
against bending; and it's already got lots of bumps and corrugations
that would be perfect places for buckling to start.  Come to think
of it, atmosphere and surface water would also pile up around the
midline.

One could make a ringworld squash-proof by bending the edges outward
slightly for a ") (" cross-section; that way the surface would be
normal to centrifugal force plus ring self-attraction and solar
tides, not just centrifugal force.  To my recollection, Niven's
isn't; you can see from one rim clear across to the other.  The
necessary curvature depends on the density and mean thickness of
scrith, and the solar gravity, and I don't want to even contemplate
calculating it; but the sideways force is probably at least 1/1000
of a gee at the edges, so you'd need an outward slope of 1/1000 to
compensate, making a pronounced "hump" in the middle.

Please ignore this whole posting if Niven's ringworld is already
bent outward at the edges.

Mike Rubin
{arpanet}!topaz!timeplex!mrubin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Oct 86 1010-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #349
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Oct 86 1010-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #349
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 349

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 86 07:57:00 GMT
From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: History of the Universe up to _Bloo

>The Amberites move through shadow easily only in the portion of the
>Universe under the effect of the Pattern.  As they get closer and
>closer to Chaos, they find it more and more difficult to "shift
>Shadow", because the more Chaotic shadows move and shift by
>themselves, screwing up the mental-physical arithmetic processes
>employed.

They also find it difficult to move through shadow in the physical
vicinity of Amber, presumably due to the presence of the pattern.
Corwin, one of the better walkers, is one of the few who seems able
to shift shadow even slightly on the near side of the mountain.  As
one goes further into shadow and further from Amber physically, it
gets easier until approaching Chaos.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 86 07:02:42 GMT
From: altunv!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Silva)
Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment

 From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
> I think Dworkin could've walked back if he wanted to.  But it was
> probably easier (faster, less tiring) to trump back.  Remember the
> scene with Corwin and Brand (in Courts of Chaos, I think), where
> Corwin rides around in a circle so that he can escape through
> Shadow?

I think you are overlooking something, you cannot shift shadow WHILE
YOU ARE IN AMBER.  The only way to leave Amber, is to a> ride far
enough away for the effects of Amber to be less significant (Even
still it is mention several times that shifting shadows is difficult
while near Amber).  b> Trump to somebody who is away from Amber.  c>
walk the pattern, and from the center area of the pattern, teleport
to wherever you want.
   I see this as the reason Corwin could not leave his cell.  He had
not studied from Dworkin the techniques in making Trumps (as Brand
had), so it wasn't until he was able to con Dworkin into drawing the
picture of the Lighthouse of Cabra that Corwin was able to escape.
Also, I think the fact that Brand and Fiona had studied under
Dworkin has more to do with thier extra abilites.  They simply know
more about the principle of the Trumps than anybody else.

Brad Silva
...!ptfsa!gilbbs!altunv!brad

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1986  13:17 EDT (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: nitpicking Amber question

   The first occurrence of Ganelon that I've ever seen was the
traitor in Song of Roland...
   And yes, Dara does walk the Pattern.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1986  13:22 EDT (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Shape-shifting (Trumps of Doom spoiler)

   I suspect that one reason that Dara never walked the Logrus is
that Zelanzy hadn't thought of it then...:)
   Seriously, if the Lords of Chaos didn't know what would happen to
someone who walked both, they would probably have had Dara wait and
only walk the Pattern to minimize the chances of something going
wrong.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 05:32:28 GMT
From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability

Salgado.WBST@Xerox.COM writes: numerous interesting examples of
basic genetics that presuppose that all Chaosians can shift and all
Amberites cannot.  To Mr. Salgado, I say read BLOOD OF AMBER.  The
definitive answer to shape-shifiting is within that book and it is
not even remotely genetic.  Speculations are fine as long as facts
don't refute them.  And stop bringing up some non-existant Law.  Law
is never capitalized in any of the 7 Amber novels.  There is only
Amber and Chaos (and Corwin :-), and Amber is descended from the
sons Chaos and the pattern within the Jewel.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 11:40:40 PDT (Monday)
From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber - A question

     In the very first book Corwin doesn't know who he is, starts
talking to a sister, when a brother asks for help.  Corwin gives it.
The brother is being chased by people who walk shadows, but aren't
amberites.  Seems to me they may have even had six fingers or some
such.
     Was it ever explained just where these people came from?

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 23:14:55 GMT
From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

Here follow replies to Chip Hitchcock and Frank Adams.

I wrote:
>The link holds through at least eight generations of lineal descent
>(Dara was Benedict's great-great- granddaughter) but it's not clear
>if it holds for other relationships.

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) writes:
>seem to recall that Dara merely posed as Benedict's daughter to get
>Corwin into trouble (and herself into a different kind of
>trouble...).

  The explanation for all of this is a little strange ... Benedict
ended his war with the hellmaids in an overnight `conference' with
their leader Lintra, from which he returned minus an arm. Corwin's
arrival is perhaps a week after that, while Benedict is still
cleaning up the aftermath of the war. The next day, Corwin meets
Dara, later revealed as Benedict's great-great-granddaughter by
Lintra (I may have goofed by one `great-' one way or the other),
posing as Benedict's daughter, in his absence and without his
knowlege. I don't remember who spilled the beans about Dara
(Oberon?), but he/she also mentioned that Dara was "the first to
bear all the stigma of humanity". This branch of the family was
raised in a Shadow with a REAL high time-rate, very close to Chaos.
I presume Merlin spent a lot of time there too.

>Also, does Dara actually walk the Pattern (gaining general
>shadow-walking ability), or merely pass through Shadow on the Black
>Road?

  Yes, she practically tramples Corwin as she rides up Kolvir to get
to the "main" Pattern in the Amber dungeons. By the time Corwin and
Random get there, she is halfway through it, and under the strain
she loses control of her human form. Corwin is dismayed by some of
the forms she then assumes.  When she reaches the center of the
Pattern, she announces, "Amber will be destroyed!" and
Pattern-transports away.

(me again)
>In some manner [Dworkin] encountered the Unicorn and the Jewel of
>Judgement ... In some wise he learned the Jewel's power, and began
>to use it to impose the Pattern within it on the stuff of Chaos.
>... Then Dworkin fathered Oberon ...

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:

>I don't think the chronology is quite right here.  I believe that
>Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the pattern.  The evidence
>is not conclusive, but I think Oberon grew up in the Courts of
>Chaos.  This seems unlikely if Amber already existed at that point.

  You may be right ... I recall some mention of Oberon's childhood
in the Courts of Chaos. On the other hand, Dworkin strikes me as one
who would put power ahead of anything else -- like a typical Lord of
Chaos. Only Dworkin and the Unicorn know, and neither one is
telling.

>... when did Merlin grow up?  Dara is impregnated by Corwin in
>_The_Guns_of_Avalon_, i.e., after Corwin's escape from the
>dungeons.  From that point, the action is more or less continuous
>until the Patternfall battle, where Corwin and Merlin meet.  It is
>stated that Merlin grew up at the Courts of Chaos.  Yet it seems
>that time flows slower at the Courts than at Amber: Corwin spends a
>few hours there, yet is gone from Amber for a week.  Am I missing
>something?

  First, that Corwin was not AT the Courts of Chaos, but on the
brink of the abyss that separates the end of Shadow from the Courts
proper. By the way, that is where he first meets Merlin, though he
does not at the time know who Merlin is. Time in the shadow Earth
(our own universe, of all places) runs about 2-1/2X Amber Standard
Time. Hugi the crow says he's been waiting for Corwin since the
beginning of time (since Dworkin inscribed his Pattern?).  Corwin
says something to the effect of, 'I hope you haven't been bored',
and Hugi replies: "Time is what you make of it, here. It has not
been long."  I would say that a Lord of Chaos, at the Courts, would
have all the time he/she/it wanted. See also the paragraph about
Dara, above.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 23:32:55 GMT
From: meccsd!ahby@caip.rutgers.edu (Shane P. McCarron)
Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment

brad@altunv.UUCP (Brad Silva) writes:
>I think you are overlooking something, you cannot shift shadow
>WHILE YOU ARE IN AMBER.

I got the impression that if you were good enough (read powerful
enough) you could manipulate shadow from within Amber.  I just
assumed that Dworkin could do it...

Shane P. McCarron
MECC Technical Services
UUCP    ihnp4!meccts!ahby
ATT     (612) 481-3589

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 23:06:33 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon)
Subject: Re: Amber - A question

From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
>     In the very first book Corwin doesn't know who he is, starts
>talking to a sister, when a brother asks for help.  Corwin gives
>it.  The brother is being chased by people who walk shadows, but
>aren't amberites.  Seems to me they may have even had six fingers
>or some such.
>     Was it ever explained just where these people came from?

Not exactly.  Bleys and Fiona had a falling out with Brand, and
imprisoned him with a number of these guys as guards.  Later, Caine
fakes his own murder using another of these guys.  It seems clear to
me that whoever these people are, their existence isn't much of a
mystery to the Amberites, though Corwin, Random, and Flora don't
seem to know where they come from.

Since monsters often have the ability to wander in out of Shadow,
and sorcerors from someplace other than the Courts of Chaos or Amber
seem to have some abilities, it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable
that these people can use Shadow to some extent.

Note also that it's easier to follow someone through Shadow than it
is to find your own way, so the people pursuing Random don't
necessarily have the same level of skill that he did.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 21:31:39 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
>       Well, if that's the case, you'd have to walk through the
>Shadows cast by Corwin's Pattern to get there, and I wonder if
>that's possible if you haven't walked his Pattern first.

Or Trump in.

Oh rats, I don't have the books with me, but I think Merlin made it
a point to memorize the scenery so he could create a trump later.  I
think he *could* go back if he wanted to, but as someone else
pointed out, once you start walking a pattern you can't stop without
getting killed.  Besides that, I think Merlin told Bill at some
point that Suhey thought walking the Pattern after walking the
Logrus would kill him, and it "dammed near did".  Perhaps he felt
that his luck may run out if he tried to walk yet another pattern?

I think it's going to take some pretty high motivation to get Merlin
to walk his father's pattern.  We'll have to wait and see how
Zelazny does it...

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 05:26:13 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability  (Spoiler for Blood of
Subject: Amber)

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>Salgado.WBST@Xerox.COM writes: numerous interesting examples of
>basic genetics that presuppose that all Chaosians can shift and all
>Amberites cannot.  To Mr. Salgado, I say read BLOOD OF AMBER.  The
>definitive answer to shape-shifiting is within that book and it is
>not even remotely genetic.  Speculations are fine as long as facts
>don't refute them.

Well, I finished Blood quite recently and I can't see what
definitive answer you are referring to.  (To which you are
referring?  Whatever.)  Merlin says something about being a Chaos
Lord just before he shape-shifts the first time.  Someone implied
that shape shifting was a product of walking the Logrus, (which
appears to be borne out by Merlin's use of the Logrus to accomplish
the shift) but Dara could do it before she walked the Pattern, and
Merlin was, according to Suhey (who should know) the first to walk
both the Pattern and the Logrus.  (In _Trumps_of_Doom_.)
Implication: Dara had not walked the Logrus at the time she
exhibited shape-shifting powers.  I don't think it's clear from
_Blood_ what exactly makes a Chaos Lord: This might be the same type
of title as being a "Prince of Amber", which implies being a member
of a certain family tree.

As someone else pointed out, Oberon was born in Amber, was unlikely
to ever have been to the Courts, (let alone near the Logrus) yet
could shape-shift.  How?

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 10:37:25 PDT (Tuesday)
From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber - the six-fingered dudes
To: unisoft!jsc@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU

From James Carrington:
>you write:
>From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
>The brother is being chased by people who walk shadows, but aren't
>amberites.  Seems to me they may have even had six fingers or some
>such.
>     Was it ever explained just where these people came from?
>
>Yes -- In either the "Hand of Oberon" or "Courts of Chaos" the
>brother being chased (Random) explains that he tried to rescue
>Brand from the tower where he was imprisoned. He failed, and the
>six-fingered dudes followed him all the way to shaodow-earth, where
>he killed them with the aid of Corwin et al.

     My memory is the six-fingered dudes had some ability to walk
shadows.  Is that true?  Wasn't Random able to shake them for
awhile?  So that they weren't getting through shadow by staying very
close to Random?
     The real question I ought to have asked is what happened to the
shadow where the six-fingered guys came from.  If there are lots of
these people, they could collectivly be more powerful than the
Amberites.  Just think of it, there might be a million people who
can walk shadow.  And unless all the rest of them are really nice
people and most of the time just don't want to hurt anyone, Amber
and Chaos could be in real danger.  Do you think Zelany will worry
about these people again?
     Two more questions.  Does Amber live in a solar system which is
in a galaxy?  Has there been mention of any shadows which go back in
time?

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Amber
Date: 14 Oct 86 14:44:00 GMT

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>Oh rats, I don't have the books with me, but I think Merlin made it
>a point to memorize the scenery so he could create a trump later.

"I studied the place once more, for details as well as for feeling,
because I wanted to be able to construct a Trump for it"

   Blood of Amber, p. 164

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 15:53:00 GMT
From: jpd249@uiucuxf.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject: new amber book?

new amber book???  the last on I read was Trumps of Doom, is there
another??  please reply..

a newcomer..

Jeff Deitch@UICU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 86 0814-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #350
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 350

Today's Topics:

            Television - Battlestar Galactica (3 msgs) &
                    Blake's 7 & Star Trek (7 msgs) & UFO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 14:53:49 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica

This is an example of the novel being written from an early script.
The Cylons in the books are definitely organic. The Cylons in the
movies are just as certainly machines. You see wires, and in one
episode they take apart two cylons to study.

By the way, does anyone know the publishing schedule on the novels.
The last BG novel I got was Die Chamilion about 6 months ago.

Phil Paone

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 00:11:11 GMT
From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica

>From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got
>from the first book in the novelization was that the cylons were an
>*organic* race, and not machines at all!

  THAT IS WHAT THE novelization said, but the tv show differs. The
novel claimed that there was some organic form inside the armor,
augmented by robot abilities and additional electronic brains.

(in monotone)
'Why is it that we hard-ly ev-er get a hit on a co-lo-ni-al vi-per?'
`How can we be ex-pec-ted to hit the broad side of a barn with on-ly
one little red eye boun-cing back and forth like a ping pong ball?'
       -Cattlecar Galactica
          ('What planet are we going to crash on THis week?')

Rob Wald
(Princeton University Information Services)
6090617@PUCC.BITNET
Applelink: A0181
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 23:19:33 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica

>>... the cylons were an *organic* race,
>>and not machines at all!
>>
>   THAT IS WHAT THE novelization said, but the tv show differs. The
> novel claimed that there was some organic form inside the armor,
> augmented by robot abilities and additional electronic brains.

NO!!!!!!!!!  I definitely remember that the Cylons used to be a race
of organic life forms, and built the 'warriors' for their own use.
The original race died out due to something unknown a long while
back, but the robots continued on.  The Cylon leader was supposed to
be a representation of the original form the organic Cylons had, as
a sort of tribute to their former 'masters.'

As for the Colonial war, it had raged on for eons (or thousands of
yahren) and the original cause of the war was forgotten.  The Cylons
left the machines behind to carry on the war, and I think their
primary goal was total victory.

------------------------------

Date: 14 October 1986 08:33:53 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Blake's 7--the name

 From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)

>"Blake's 7" was never a show that relied on *any* single person.
>  ...  When you've got a hit show called something, you don't
>change the name.  It might confuse the viewers :-)

Yeah, I realize that; I meant that they shouldn't have named the
show after one character (especially a character who can't
regenerate :-) in the first place. Heck, I don't know; they could've
called it something like "Liberators" or "Freedom in the Galaxy" or
somesuch name. (But they didn't, I know, so cool the flames, eh?)

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 21:38:17 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  No Century of Progress

friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>On the other hand, take note of Kirk's arrival in San Francisco at
>the beginning of ST-TMP.  Doesn't exactly look like a BART station
>to me.  (But maybe that's what BART will become in 200 years or
>so.)  :-)

Yeah, it occurred to me that with a working transporter, life on
Earth must resemble something out of a Niven story...  Until I
realized that transporters are probably hideously expensive,
complex, and dangerous in the ST universe.  (Remember all the
transporter related accidents in the series, and the two people
killed in the first movie.)  Something as unreliable as the
transporter would probably not be used commercially, hence other
modes of transportation, like the super-bart, would be more likely.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 13:17:05 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes:
>gmp@rayssd.UUCP (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
>>I'm sure that all readers of this group will want to see the
>>program be as good as possible, and I think the best way to ensure
>>that is by having good writers.  What would really be great is if
>>episodes were written by recent Hugo and Nebula award winning
>>authors.  will be* if we all just sit around on our duffs.
>
>I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something else.
>The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one thing:
>The Enterprise
>Capt. Kirk
>etc.
>
>Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek).

NO! NO! NO!  I have been fighting this battle at Star Trek
Conventions and in fandom for fifteen (15) YEARS!

STAR TREK is an idea...a universe..a concept.  It is not a set of
actors or their characters!

I love the crew of the Enterprise (and the ship) as much as any of
you, I'm glad the old gang is making movies (although the
explanations for these folks getting together are getting a bit
thin).  But Shatner and Nimoy and Kelley are not Star Trek.  Kirk
and Spock and McCoy are not Star Trek.  Not even the Enterprise is
Star Trek.  Star Trek is a concept created by Gene Roddenberry where
a group of people in a ship go out exploring space, far enough from
authority to require idependent action, with the best of intentions,
and the weakness of character that sometimes they fail to act on
those intentions properly, and the strength of character to learn
from their mistakes.

Read C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower series for the roots of Star
Trek.  Roddenberry did.

Now, on another point.  Do not limit the good writers for something
like Star Trek to SF writers.  Some SF writers cannot write in the
screenplay format (Isaac Asimov has admitted it many times at
conventions).  Many great Star Trek episodes were written by people
who had no background in SF (Gene Coon, D.C. Fontana).  Certainly SF
writers can write good Trek, but so can other people, so long as
they are good writers.  Good writing needs no label, SF or
otherwise.

The one thing that will help keep the writing at a high level is a
good Story Editor.  The SE edits, watches consistancy, and even
rewrites to make sure the writing is true to the series and the
concept.  For example, Harlan Ellison's original "City on the
Edge..." was a great story, but not great Star Trek.  The final
version, after rewrite was both.

Enough flaming for now.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 13:39:43 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Star Trek and Social Change

>Why do you say there is virtually no social change between our
>century and that of Star Trek?  A lot of social attitudes are
>postulated to have improved by the time of ST: racial and gender
>equality, for example....Even more important, I think, is the
>apparent lack of warfare between nations of Earth.

You're making my point for me.  ST society is our society without
the features that we, today, deplore--a sanitized 1980, a society
we'd be pleased to live in.  By contrast, anyone from a past century
who was brought to our society would be very distressed, but not by
our social injustice or our wars.  Depending on their origin they
would deplore our lack of [whichever] virtues, our Godlessness, our
indifference to social distinctions.  ST society is one with the
same ideals as ours.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 13:31:30 PDT
From: ROBINSON%SAT@ames-io.ARPA
To: sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu

>From: Garrett Fitzgerald
>Stardates are very screwed up. If I remember correctly, the
>episodes were about 1800-3500 (three years), STTMP was the middle
>7000s, but TWOK was only 8000...

That brings to mind a question that I have always had, How do the
stardates work.

>I have a new idea on Genesis' instability. The Genesis torpedo
>destroyed the controller with the Reliant. Might this be why it was
>unstable? In the planned experiment, the controller would have been
>safely off the planet.

I doubt it.  Saavik and David discussed this.  David stated that he
had used (I forget the name) an UNstable compound as a catalyst for
the reaction.

>... After the Genesis wave (neat name) passes the camera, it swoops
>down and goes over several mountain ranges. Except the last one.
>They wanted to pass over all of them, but the "camera" kept running
>into the last mountain.  So, they drew a gorge for the camera to go
>through. Neat trick, eh?  Well, that's all for now.

Yes!  and if you watch it very closely you will see as the camera is
about to slam into the mountain it disappears.

Randy Robinson

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 16:27:50 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

gmp@rayssd.UUCP (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
> I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something else.
> The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one thing:
> The Enterprise
> Capt. Kirk
> Mr. Spock
> Scotty
> Bones
> Chekov
> Uhura
> Sulu
> etc.
>
> Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek).

I guess I am a Klingon spy (funny my tribble is not squealing, maybe
I'm Romulan).

Star Trek means far more to me then the above mentioned team.  Don't
get me wrong, Kirk and company made a great team, but it was the
ideals and even some adventure that was Star Trek for me.  A new
team might put new blood into it, who knows.  Then again it could be
like that (sorta) 2nd season of that "Battlestar" show.  I dislike
the name chosen, but only 'cause it sounds too sequally (is that a
word?).  The fact that it says it's Star Trek only leads me to hope
that they will "Go where no Man has gone before".  I hope they live
up to the tradition.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 16:29:35 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

If you're looking for an address to express your thoughts to Paramont:

Try: Gene Roddenberry's Office
     5555 Melrose
     Los Angeles, CA  90038

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc]
BIX:  victoro
Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro
People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro
Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 20:58:00 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Romulan Ale and Star Trek dates

> Also, two details in the movie. When the Klingons show up on the
> screen, Saavik says something unintelligible, the "Mr. Sulu, get
> us out of here!" Did anybody manage to intellige that?

Yes.  She sees 3 Klingon cruisers in battle formation coming at them
and she says (rather quietly), "Way over our heads." immediately
followed with "Mr. Sulu get us out of here!"

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 20:00:41 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: UFO

>I'm sure "Paul" had a last name, but I am equally sure it was used
>only once or twice.

Colonel Paul Foster was mentioned as such many times.  He rapidly
became moonbase commander, and was one of the most trusted men in
the service.  He was originally a pilot who was accidentally
involved in a UFO incident along with a partner who was killed.  His
ferocious zeal in finding out what happened, despite all SHADO's
attempts to disuade him (highly illegal attempts, too) led them to
bring him into the organisation, where he served with distinction
and became one of Straker's closest friends.

Many of the episodes concerned him; one particularly good one
involved only him and an alien on the Moon, helping each other
survive until rescued.

>Ed Straker was the only one who was more than a first name.

Oh?

Col. Ed Straker     a thorough wet blanket.  The less said, the
                    better.
Col. Alec Freeman   2nd in command; a decent sort, if unexciting.
Col. Paul Foster    moonbase commander, close friend of Alec and Ed.
Col. Virginia Lake  the sourest woman I've ever seen.  Thought every
                    word from a man was part of a "line".  Can't
                    remember her function in SHADO.
Capt. Peter Carlin  one of the pilots of Sky One.  Lost his sister
                    in a UFO incident.
Capt. (first name?) Waterman  captain of Skydiver.

>There was an episode concerning the death of his son and the
>ensuing breakup of his marriage, for example.

His marriage had already broken up -- SHADO had become his mistress.
She was remarried, to rather a colourless character, when the boy
was hit by a car, having chased after Ed rather than watched the
traffic.  Strong episode, but the same grey feeling in the end that
they all had.

I wish all this had been only one episode.  However, it got dragged
out over many of them.

>Pretty good for an Anderson show, though - at there WAS a
>non-cardboard character!

He was such a drip I don't know how much good being non-cardboard
did; but on the whole, I agree.

>Their subs consisted of a small fighter plane grafted onto the
>front end of a submersible tender . . .  The subs could also
>torpedo ufos that got underwater

I always tried to overlook that fact that Skydiver alone was meant
to cover every ocean on Earth.  And as you say, for aerial assaults
it had only Sky One.

>Their space defenses were based on the moon; they consisted of
>interceptor spaceships that were a propulsion system, a cockpit,
>and a missle. That's it; one missle. The missle was about 2/3 the
>length of the rest of the interceptor. Dumb design; they'd send 'em
>after ufos in threes, so if all three missed, the ufo got through.

Very bad, as you say.  Yet in the same episode you mention above,
where Skydiver found a full base on the ocean floor, a whole fleet
of UFO's came around the moon, and the 3 interceptors dealt with
most of them, allowing Sky One to have a little fun with the
remainder.  How did the interceptors reload?  Haven't a clue.

>No orbital defenses; just an orbiting computer/tracking system
>called SID, Space-borne Intruder Detector (I think); this beast was
>solid computer and sensors.

"Space Intruder Detector", meaning detector of intruders in space.

>The moon base was pretty cool; all the women wore their hair
>identically (bowl- type hairstyle), wore tight-fitting silver mylar
>outfits. One or two of them were pretty tough people; in one...

Their hair was *purple* on duty, but somehow normal coloured on
leave.  Those uniforms were intended for the male eye, not for
efficient service.  But there is no doubt that a number of the women
were central, very important, personnel.

>One of Gerry and Sylvia's best efforts, in my opinion; superior to
>Space:1999,

Certainly true in my experience; but improving on Space:1999 was not
terribly hard.  The Andersons often seem to me to be trying to make
up with enthusiasm what they lack in expertise.

>in that the interceptors appeared to be powerful enough
>to make swooping turns in space.

What has power got to do with this?  What they appeared to use were
steering fins (in space of course); what they needed were steering
rockets.  These at least the Eagles had.

Compared to many of its contemporaries, UFO was not too bad a show.
Nevertheless, it still had too many failings, and was overall too
grey in spirit, for me to claim enjoying it.  I wouldn't care to see
it again.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 86 0833-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #351
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 351

Today's Topics:

       Books - Burroughs & Clancy & Hawke & Myers (2 msgs) &
               Wolfe & Ace Doubles (3 msgs) & Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 00:26:15 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: ERB

>>    Does anybody out there like Edgar Rice Burroughs books?  I've
>> read the moon, Mars, Venus, and Pellucidar series, but none of
>> the Tarzan books.

Strangely, I followed the same pattern.  I read ERB's Mars, Venus,
and Center-of-the-Earth books, but never even *tried* the Tarzan
books, despite all the TV and movie versions thereof.  I still am
not sure why -- has anyone else read ERB in this fashion?

>I for one grew up on the Mars series.  ERB's descriptions of exotic
>people, fantastic scenery and heroic efforts hooked me on SF.
>Although I quickly 'outgrew' (not trying to sound to snobbish here)
>his stories and moved on to grander ideas, I still reread the first
>three books (The Princess of Mars, The Gods of Mars, The Warlord of
>Mars) every couple of years.  Kinda like watching a M*A*S*H rerun,
>it just feels good!

Just three weeks ago I finished re-reading a number of the Mars
books after a five-or-ten-year haitus.  They remain very good pulp
fiction.  But tell me: does ERB's Mars series seem to you more SF
than Fantasy?

It almost seems to me that SF is about human Earthlings in the
future [or whenever] doing funky new-technology stuff, and Fantasy
is about non-humans in any time period doing any kind of funky
stuff.  Can someone offer me a better division between F and SF?
It's pretty clear I need one...

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: Mon 13 Oct 86 23:54:28-CDT
From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Re: "Science fiction"
To: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU

> [Tom Clancy] was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate
> sense.  Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean
> "that's impossible". . . . he has fallen for the Harper's
> propaganda that all science fiction is bad, he feels that he has
> to call his works something else.

I agree that it is unfortunate that some authors are afraid to let
their work be labeled science fiction, and that some people consider
the term to be a pejorative.  It may be that Clancy was using the
term "science fiction" as you suggest, but it was also clear in the
interview that all the military technology described in Red Storm
exists today - that the novel does not extrapolate the technology at
all and the story does not assume any breakthroughs or new
developments.  This is in contrast to the typical science fiction
story, which starts by assuming some new development or discovery
and then examines the implications.  Since the book was originally
reviewed on this board, I thought it interesting to find out that
the technology described is current.

Larry Van Sickle
cs.vansickle@r20.utexas.edu
U of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 00:53:03 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Khyber Connection

For anyone who wants a good popcorn time travel series, Simon
Hawke's TIME WARS have been recommended.  Each book is pretty much
the old plot of "stick our fearless time commandos back in
historical events to help "fix" them".  The series is well written,
with lots of adventure, familiar characters, and panache.  I like
it.

The Sixth Book, "The Khyber Connection" has just come out.  If
you've been following the series, and noticing how each successive
book has shown how the timeline is getting more and more messed up,
be prepared.  This time it's IMMENSELY messed up.  I really don't
see how our guys are gonna make it out of this one.  Major surprise
as well.

Other than that, if I say too much about it, I'll spoil it.  I like
it, and that's all.  And yes, the line "You're a better man than I
am, Gunga Din." does appear, as does Winston Churchill.

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 09:59:45 EDT
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Wayne Barber)
Subject: John Myers Myers

Al Dunn writes:
>I read Silverlock around '79 and have seen a sequel on the shelf at
>our local bookstore for a couple of years now.  So today I finally
>got it.  _The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter_ is the title.  Anyone
>read it yet?  I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about it
>on the net.

I read this book when it first came out and was also disappointed.
It is a sequel to _Silverlock_ in that _Silverlock_ pays homage to
the great stories from literature and _The Moon's Fire Eating
Daughter_ pays homage to the writers of literature.  The story in
MEFD definitely plays second fiddle to the characters.

>There's also a booklist: By John Myers Myers:

>  The Harp and the Blade

His first book, and a very good one.  There was a Silverblaze
edition a few years ago.

>  Out on Any Limb

Elizabethan England murder mystery/swashbuckler.  The first time I
read it I thought it was longer than it should have been.  The
second time I read it, it was great.  Probably out of print.

>  The Wild Yazoo

Mississippi frontier novel.  Another good action story with a main
character that definitely grows character.  Also out of print.  (The
title refers to a river.)

>  Silverlock

Myer's classic fantasy.  If you've read this, you've pretty much met
the main character in all his fiction.  But the other books are
still worth finding.  Definitely in print and possibly the best book
Baen ever published.  (But quite a few typos.)

>  Dead Warrior

The only real Western in the bunch.  The best written of all the
books, but Myers' main interest is the Old West.  This one is
probably out of print, too.

>  The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter

My least favorite Myers book.  Nifty use of language but it just
doesn't pull together like his other books.

>  Anybody read any of the above?  Any recommendations:?
>  Are there any other Silverlock sequels?

The ones I have mentioned are the only ones I know to be fiction.
Myers also wrote a lot of non-fiction.  I recommend all the books
mentioned above but the last.  MEFD has some great language and some
nice passages, but falls flat overall.  (Just an opinion, folks).

None of the others bear any relation to the _Silverlock_ universe,
but they are all good reading.

Wayne Barber

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 86 16:30:03 EDT
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Wayne Barber)
Subject: John Myers Myers

stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>From the booklist (not included here) I get the impression that
>most of Myers' output is in the Western genre.  The only other work
>of his that I have read is The Harp and the Blade.  It is (believe
>it or not) a story of CONAN returning to his old Celtic stomping
>grounds.  Definitely not in the expected Conan mythos.  It is also
>an acceptably good story (believe it or not) and I recommend it.

I *don't* believe it!  Just because the character has the same name
doesn't make it the same character.  Howard's Conan HAS no Celtic
stomping grounds.  He was a Cimmerian and lived in a time that was
supposedly before recorded history.  _The Harp and the Blade_ takes
place around 1000 a.d.

For those who have never read THaTB, it's actually about an Irish
bard named Finnian who gets caught up in a battle between two
factions in the north of France.  Each person is trying to grab a
piece of land to call home and rule over.  One is a nice guy named
Conan whose family lived there for years.  The other is a nasty guy
(I don't remember his name) who is killing people who are siding
with Conan. Eventually, of course, they duke it out.

Let me stress that the main character here is Finnian, not Conan.
The whole story is told from Finnian's point of view and there is no
indication at all of any similarity between this Conan and Howard's
Conan.

Wayne Barber

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 86 00:31:07 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: Wolfe

I just finished "Soldier of the Mist" purchased from the SF Book
Shop.  While there, I received the most amazing information from
Baird Searles:

This book, which actually has a November release date, is *ALREADY*
out of print. I don't know where he got these copies, but apparently
there will be no more. Truly bizarre. The book is by Tor, by way of
St.  Martin's Press. Tor has not heretofore been on my list of idiot
publishers..... I mean really, Wolfe's name alone is now enough to
guarantee ten or twenty thousand hard-covers at least. He was
reviewed in the Times, for Gaea's sake....

Anyhow, the book is set during the cataclysmic events of about 479
BC, Greece, and makes me wish I remembered more about the period.  I
*think* all his details are right, about the defeat of the Persians,
etc., but it would be nice to know. The book is much like TBOTNS and
Silverlock in that one is greatly benefited by a classical
education, which I unfortunately only have a glimmer of ("read and
liked Homer").

Among other things, I would like to know who the narrator is!
Someone from the classics dept., PLEASE fill me in -- I have the
feeling it's an historical figure. However, I at least could guess
his country of origin before his name was revealed....

*** NOT A SPOILER ***

The narrator is a soldier who has fought in this major land battle
(Marathon? Whichever one was at the time of Thermopylae, I think) on
the side of the Persians against the Athenians and Spartans.  He has
received a head wound which has screwed up his short term memory to
the point that he forgets everything that has occurred longer than a
day in the past. He has also lost long term memory like his name,
country of origin, etc. However, he is now attuned with the
supernatural and demiurgic, and can freely talk to gods, spirits,
etc., and even make these apparent to others. Fortunately, he is
literate, so he carries around a scroll on which he has recorded his
adventures, (ie, the text of the novel).

I found this work a far more serious literary effort than FREE LIVE
FREE, and while not containing so many fantastic elements as TBOTNS,
I can really strongly recommend it over all the rest of this years
drivel.  Don't be turned off by the fact of its being an historical
fantasy, by the way; as I said I don't have any real background or
unusual interest in this period, yet I still found it fascinating.
There is a certain appeal to any work by an author who is really
knowledgeable about his work's milieu, be it historical, as in this
case, or fantastic, as in The Lord of the Rings, for instance.

It is implied both in the text and on the flyleaf that this book is
part of a series, but it ends in a more-or-less reasonable way, like
the way The Shadow of the Torturer ended on a major resolution
without revealing everything that would come in the next three
books. However, what with the weird behavior on the part of the
publisher, who knows if the remainder of this series will ever see
light of day.

Laurence Raphael Brothers
Organization:     Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey
Uucp-Address:     topaz!brothers
Internet-Address: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
Bell-Address:     {+1 201 932 2706 | +1 201 878 1790}
Postal-Address:   BPO 29874 CN 1119 Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 12:52:25 PDT (Monday)
Subject: 'Ace' books
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

I was sorting through a box or three of old SF books I picked up at
a fayre and found 6 strange double sided "Two in One" books
published by Ace.  They are in a back-to-back format, ie. one is
logical upsidedown to the other, and they both work inwards (!).

I recognise about 8 of the titles from various anthologies and
novella compilations.  Was this the origin of the novella, or just
one publishers format?

Hugh
ARPA:   Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 23:26:57 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Re: 'Ace' books

This was a format Ace used for a while to get shorter stories into a
bigger book. At home (i.e. not here at school) we have several of
those. As I recall they cost 25-35 cents for each one (that's TWO
stories for a quarter!). This was a long time ago of course.

Adam Barr

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 21:39:32 GMT
From: peora!joel@caip.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: 'Ace' books

I have a lot of these books from the 60s and early 70s. My
impression is that it was just a easy way to make novelettes from
S-F magazines big enough to make a paperback book.  I'd wager that
most of the anthology compilations are of later vintage, after the
stories became established classics.  If my recollection is correct,
there was a time, before hardcover edition of science fiction became
common, that Ace published the majority of science fiction in book
form.

I think Ace may still publish some of their other genres, such as
Westerns, in this format sometimes. I can think of a couple of my
favorite authors, such as, Philip High and maybe H. Beam Piper that
I don't have in anything but Ace editions. I've lost a couple of my
High novels, that I would sure like to replace.

The most annoying thing about Ace doubles is that I keep my science
fiction organized alphabetically by author. This is rather difficult
when you have two novels by two authors in one book.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road
Orlando, Florida 32809
(305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 06:24:42 GMT
From: safari!dave@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Venus & Vitamin C

Help!

I've been trying to track down a short story for about 15 years (I
don't have the title nor the author); but this is the situation as
best as I can remember it:

Around 1968 I came across a paperback collection of 10 short
stories, each written by various authors. The person compiling the
book itself wrote the last story where he started out by saying he
was having a hard time selecting the last story for the book.  He
then tells how he was looking out the window one afternoon when a
man came up to his door (he being a well known writer) and proceeded
to tell a fantastic story which he himself claims to be a prediction
of the future.  Now the author then relates the man's story to the
reader (with occasional "intermissions").  The man's story is about
global war and how a few scientists escape to Venus in hopes of
preserving the human race.  Unfortunately, for some reason, they are
all sterile due to a lack of vitamin C.  Even more unfortunate is
that although they are scientists, none of them know enough about
synthesizing vitamin C, and the books they brought with them make no
mention of it.  The last pages of the book deal with the scientists
(one of which is a sf-lover) desperately going through all of their
books on the chance that one of them has the formula for
synthesizing vitamin C.  As you turn to the last page of this last
story, there you see the formula.

Does anyone know the writer or title of this?  Does anyone have a
book with this story in it?

I believe there was another story in the same book called "Volpla"
-- about a scientist living near Vandenberg AFB who created a bunch
of intelligent winged creatures, taught them a language, and then -
as a practical joke - taught them a false account of their origin in
the hope that they would be discovered by someone later who would
decipher their language and be fooled by the creature's false
history.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

...!tektronix!reed!omen!bucket!safari!dave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 86 0844-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #352
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 352

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 86 23:17:58 -0100
Subject: Law and Amber

From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
>I don't think that the terms Law and Chaos in the Moorcock/D&D/etc
>sense apply to Amber and Chaos.

Good point.  I was hoping that someone would make it.  Although it
often makes sense to think of Pattern and Chaos as opposing
principles in the Amber universe, since they are opposing poles of
Shadow, it is possible to take this too far.  The Pattern, the
actual basis for the Amber end of Shadow, is not Pattern the
abstract principle but one particular pattern, shaped by Dworkin as
well as the Jewel.  Amber is hardly the embodiment of Law and Order,
and is in some ways more anarchic than Chaos.  Remember, for
example, the Chaos Lord who objected to Corwin's unsportsman-like
conduct.  Remember also that it was Random who was chosen to rule in
Amber and not, for example, Benedict.

In general, I think it is a mistake to take simple categories too
seriously because they lead us to see less of what's there rather
than more.  This is the only argument I can give, really, against
the imposition of the D&D categories on the Amber universe -- to me
they are, in this case, essentially anti-helpful, they obscure and
distort rather than reveal.

I do not, for instance, see how the Law/Chaos distinction can tell
us the basis or extent of shape-shifting ability.  This question is
not resolved in the books; it's one of the things that neither we
nor Corwin have the answer to.  Nor do we, contrary to Laurence
Raphael, "KNOW that the Logrus is not an aspect of the primal
pattern because Chaos existed prior to Law".  To answer this
question, we would need to know more about the Jewel and the Logrus
both.

Other readers may, of course, feel differently.  But I hope we do
not end up in a long argument over this.  I'm not saying that no one
should think in terms of Law/Chaos at all, just that we shouldn't
adopt them a priori and use them to generate answers where they may
not apply.  We have to look first to what Corwin actually tells us
and reserve judgement, to a large extent, on the rest.

This is not to say that nothing from outside can have any
application.  I disagreed with Laurence Raphael above, but not with
everything he said.  For example, from the same message:

    Dworkin is more like the Corn King of old, whose life was tied
    to his domain and who ruled under the auspices of whichever
    Goddess-archetype you prefer.  When Amber was beset (resulting
    from treachery rather than external assault, really), Dworkin's
    state reflected Amber's disarray, albeit the whole thing
    originated in the attack on Martin.

This particular link to other mythologies had not occurred to me
and, although the analogy is not perfect, I find it useful.  It's
too easy, when reading SF or fantasy, to limit ourselves to thinking
in terms of a true story about an imaginary world and to forget
interpretive techniques that we might apply elsewhere.  However,
when we *are* wondering what's true in an imaginary world, we should
remember that some techniques will not be particularly helpful.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 01:15:49 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: Amber, Law, and Chaos

>From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
>  I don't think that the terms Law and Chaos in the
>Moorcock/D&D/etc sense apply to Amber and Chaos.  The Courts of
>Chaos, though chaotic in flavor, are very orderly and quite
>stratefied; they are Lawful.  Amber, made by the Pattern, has had a
>rather chaotic history even at its most peaceful.  Various
>characters comment on this at appropriate times, but I can't
>remember who or when.

Ah HAH!  What fun.  How's this: Amberites and Chaosians -- that is,
the natives of Amber and of the Courts of Chaos, respectively -- are
actually *very similar* in nature.  But because the Amberites live
in what we can call an unusually Orderly part of Existence, the more
chaotic parts of their beings rebel and they squabble.  The
Chaosians, surrounded by more Chaos than anyone could want,
counteract that by being very orderly.

Okay, so it's a lousy little Just So Story.  But it almost kinda
makes a little sense, sort of.  Don't you think?

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 02:56:06 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: Dara, Benedict, and Lintra

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>  The explanation for all of this is a little strange ... Benedict
>ended his war with the hellmaids in an overnight `conference' with
>their leader Lintra, from which he returned minus an arm.

False.  He returned from the conference having [we suspect and Dara
tells us] having <ahem> 'known' Lintra the Hell-Maid.  But was
Lintra a Lord of Chaos?  I suspect *not*, for I believe that all
Lords of Chaos have human features, whereas Dara was the first of
Lintra's descendants to have human features.  Dara says so, anyway.
It was in the battle later on that he, fighting Lintra, hesitates to
kill her.  SHE then cuts off his arm, and *then* he kills her.
[Benedict showing emotion?]  If Dara's maternal line isn't Lords of
Chaos, then she MUST get ALL her shapeshifting abilities PLUS her
ability to walk the Pattern from Benedict!  [Okay, maybe the
intervening generations included Lords of Chaos, but that's no fun
as an answer.]

>>I believe that Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the
>>pattern.  The evidence is not conclusive, but I think Oberon grew
>>up in the Courts of Chaos.  This seems unlikely if Amber already
>>existed at that point.

I can recall NO mention either way.  If Dworkin mated with the
unicorn before making the Pattern, then Where Was the Jewel Of
Judgement All That Time????  Was Dworkin toting it around all that
time?  That seems hugely unlikely.  Considering the Jewel's effect
on all creatures other than the Unicorn, I'd guess that Dworkin got
the Jewel and fathered Oberon in short order, and then soon after
created the Pattern.

>>... when did Merlin grow up?  Dara is impregnated by Corwin in
>>_The_Guns_of_Avalon_ [...].  From that point, the action is more
>>or less continuous until the Patternfall battle, where Corwin and
>>Merlin meet.  It is stated that Merlin grew up at the Courts of
>>Chaos.  Yet it seems that time flows slower at the Courts than at
>>Amber: Corwin spends a few hours there, yet is gone from Amber for
>>a week.

For that matter, where did Dara grow up?  Remember, Lintra had sex
with Benedict, and then died in battle a day [or was it more time
than that?]  or so later.  In the interim she had to have gestated
and delivered a child!  And between the time of Benedict's liaison
w/ Lintra and Corwin's meeting with Dara, surely no more than a
month in Benedict's shadow, THREE GENERATIONS were born and raised,
ending with Dara!  [At least I think it was three -- could someone
check this?]  Anyway, we see some serious screwing around with time
here.  Most annoying.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 12:33:19 GMT
From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability  (Spoiler for Blood of
Subject: Amber)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
[in regard to the origin of the shape shifting ability]
>Well, I finished Blood quite recently and I can't see what
>definitive answer you are referring to.  (To which you are
>referring?  Whatever.)

When Merlin faces the Dweller, Zelazny describes the process by
which Merlin shifts - via the Logrus.

>As someone else pointed out, Oberon was born in Amber, was unlikely
>to ever have been to the Courts, (let alone near the Logrus) yet
>could shape-shift.  How?

Oberon was born in Chaos - see the passage in THE COURTS OF CHAOS
where Oberon and Dworkin discuss their childhood at the Courts and
the self-discipline it taught them.  Dworkin also points out that he
has assumed that walking the Pattern would be enough to teach
Oberon's children similar control.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1986  12:18 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: oliveb!trash@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Repa)
Subject: Amber

First set of five:

   Nine Princes in Amber
   Guns of Avalon
   Sign of the Unicorn
   Hand of Oberon
   Courts of Chaos

the new set:

   Trumps of Doom
   Blood of Amber
   ???

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1986  12:26 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Amber (Zelazney)

fai!ronc at caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU writes:
>>       Final point.  Remember what it means, at least according to
>>Dworkin, when you inscribe a Pattern?  You become it, it becomes
>>you.  Your injuries are its injuries, its injuries are yours, but
>>you can't be hurt unless it is first, and it can't be hurt unless
>>you are first, etc.  Of course, Dworkin made a slight
>>miscalculation, in that the blood of his descendants could also
>>hurt his Pattern, but...Anyway, considering all that, what does
>>Corwin's having created a Pattern REALLY mean?  Is he now
>>invulnerable...?
>
>Hmmm.  Perhaps a little hyperbole on Dworkin's part...  He later
>says that he can destroy Amber by walking the pattern then stabbing
>himself.  Doesn't sound very invulnerable to me...

But that was contingent on his walking to the Center of the Pattern.
The implication that I get out of this is that the creator of a
Pattern can also destroy it, by destroying himself in the center.
That seems to me to be the only way the creator of a Pattern can be
hurt however (well, barring what we already know about blood on the
Pattern).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 16:33:33 GMT
From: cbdkc1!blb@caip.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB )
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

I attended MARCON XXI earlier this year, at which Zelazny was the
GOH and read to us from the manuscript of Blood of Amber. He
commented that this was the first time he had actually started
working on a subsequent Amber novel (Ghostwheel, I think, is the
working title of the next one) before the earlier one was published.

So I don't think he's sitting on them. He writes other stuff
inbetween, usually.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 23:20:56 GMT
From: weitek!robert@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Dara, Benedict, and Lintra

benn@sphinx.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes:
>For that matter, where did Dara grow up?  Remember, Lintra had sex
>with Benedict, and then died in battle a day [or was it more time
>than that?]  or so later.

There isn't any real indication of how long the war lasted in
Avalon's timestream. It would have been limited to about five years,
Amber time (Corwin uttering his curse to Corwin arriving in Avalon).
The "one day" theory has no evidence to support it.

If the war in Avalon went like it did in Lorraine, it lasted at
least several years, local time.

>  In the interim she had to have gestated and delivered a child!
>And between the time of Benedict's liaison w/ Lintra and Corwin's
>meeting with Dara, surely no more than a month in Benedict's
>shadow, THREE GENERATIONS were born and raised, ending with Dara!
>[At least I think it was three -- could someone check this?]
>Anyway, we see some serious screwing around with time here.  Most
>annoying.

It's clear that a time-distortion on the order of 100:1 is
necessary, but there's no reason to believe that this is unusual in
the Shadows near Chaos.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 00:57:43 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

>From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
>       As a matter of fact, in Blood of Amber, Fiona tells Merlin
>that so far no one has been able to so much as touch Corwin's
>pattern.  He tries it, and claims to be unsuccessful, but later
>admits, to the reader, that he could reach it but didn't want to
>give that away.

  Actually the reason he mentioned to the reader for not setting his
foot down on the Pattern of Corwin is that once he started he would
have to finish walking the whole thing - which would have taken time
he didnt have if he were to get back to class on time.  I gathered
that this occured while he was still in college.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 01:26:59 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>I have another question concerning chronology: when did Merlin grow
>up?  Dara is impregnated by Corwin in _The_Guns_of_Avalon_, i.e.,
>after Corwin's escape from the dungeons.  From that point, the
>action is more or less continuous until the Patternfall battle,
>where Corwin and Merlin meet.  It is stated that Merlin grew up at
>the Courts of Chaos.  Yet it seems that time flows slower at the
>Courts than at Amber: Corwin spends a few hours there, yet is gone
>from Amber for a week.  Am I missing something?

I got the impression that the descendants of the Hellmaid Lintra and
Benedict were brought up in some area of shadow near or within Chaos
where time flows VERY rapidly.  Remember Dara was Benedict's Great-
Granddaughter but only a few weeks had passed in Avalon time from
Benedict's tryst with Lintra to Corwin's encounter with Dara.  Also
remember that Chaos is naturally a very Chaotic place and time flow
is almost certainly not constant within the Courts.

Another interesting point is that Merlin's younger brother in the
Courts is also a descendant of Benedict - if not of Corwin.  And
like Dalt potenially had acces to the Pattern in Tir'na No'gth.
Also a Sorcerer in the Keep of the Four Worlds might have enough
surplus power lying around to make building a trump gate practical.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 02:34:36 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@caip.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: amber

S6VYJE%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>it is entirely possible that Oberon's children can shape shift.
>remember, Brand only learned how to draw trumps because he hung
>around Dworkin.  The children were far more interested in shadow
>than abilities Dworkin and Oberon hid.  Martin, Random's son, could
>draw trumps too, so the power persisted to that generation.

I dont recall any evidence that Martin has either the artistic
talent or the knowlege to prepare a trump.  The trumps that he had
in the _Courts of Chaos_ consisted of Benedict's spare pack and some
that Merlin had given him.

   Remember Martin had been Dara's original source about Benedict
and after the scene in the throne room involving Benedict asking
Martin about Dara, Martin summoning Dara via Trump, and the
Mysterious sequence culminating in the disappearance of Benedicts
artificial arm, Random then asks his son where he got a trump for
Dara and Martin shows him the trump of the Artist who Dara
identifies as Corwin's and her son Merlin.

>Corwin's enemy and lover, whose name escapes me, says that it was
>time to inject some new strength into the line.  (the quote is very
>inexact).

   Corwin's lover and the mother of Merlin was named Dara.  As to
the inexact quote a somewhat more exact version is when Oberon and
Corwin are having a final talk at Corwin's tomb Oberon says
something on the order of:

  "Dara will make you a good queen.  I trust the blood of Chaos for
  strength, and it's time for a new infusion. And you will come to
  the throne already provided with an heir, once he overcomes his
  upbringing"

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 86 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #353
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 353

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 86 21:04:02 GMT
From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: Re: Bishop giving back pistol: another idea

I think that a more rigorous explanation is that Bishop's
programming didn't allow him to use weapons.  Note that he never
takes any hostile action against any of the aliens.

Greg Paris
{allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 86 22:31:17 GMT
From: utastro!tmca@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Explosive Projectiles

gelfand@valid.UUCP (Brooks Gelfand) writes:
> Anti-tank projectiles come in three main types.
>
> Penetrateors such as APDS (Armor Piercing Disposable Sabot)..
>
> Rounds such as the "bazooka" and other rocket projectiles that use
> heat to burn through the armor....
>
> Rounds such as HEP-T that coat the armor on the outside, detonate,
> set up vibrations in the armor causing it to splinter. The splinters
> then kill the crew....

You missed one (not that I'm any expert in these matters): the A-10
tank killing airplane carries Uranium (what's left after the
enrichment process used to produce reactor uranium, whatever its
number is - can't remember right now) tipped shells - non explosive.
These strike the tank so hard that they punch a nice neat little
hole in the side, in the process melting the uranium tip.  On
entering the crew compartment, the uranium fans out and carves up
the crew like so much butter meeting hot knives. A civilised way to
pulp humans you might say - nice neat little tank sitting in the
battlefield with nothing but a small, round hole in its side; you
never have to look at what's inside, lets you get away without
thinking about it. Dead humans can be so unsightly, don't you think?
Incidentally, the average lifetime of a tank once an A-10 enters the
battlefield is approximately 45 seconds.

Now if you'll excuse  me I'm going to throw up in the corner.

Tim Abbott
{allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!tmca
tmca@astro.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 86  13:58:27 EDT
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Part 3 : MORE ALIENS

In ALIEN the movie we never did see what happened to Dallas and the
others whom the alien captured. In the novelization Ripley finds
Dallas and Brett encased in cocoons with alien larvae feeding on
them. My own personal theory is that the derelict was an alien ship
from far beyond earth's sphere of existence. I say this because (1)
Humans had never before encountered a ship of that form or creatures
like the dead pilot (2) LV-426 was unsurveyed until the Nostromo
landed on it although the Company had previously decoded the beacon
(3) in ALIENS the company agent said a creature that "gestates
inside a living human host and has acid for blood" had never been
discovered on over 300 known planets. I believe the ship was
carrying the last of the alien eggs to dump on an isolated planet
but the ship crashed and some the eggs hatched.  An interesting
question is raised here, what happened to the alien that matured
inside the pilot? And also, if LV-426 was outside the fringes of
human civilization, where was the Nostomo returning from with its
cargo of crude oil? Lambert said it would take them 10 months to get
back to Earth, they had probably been in hypersleep for years before
then. In ALIENS the movie there seemed to be only one atmospheric
processor, in the novel there were dozens of them all over the
planet. Can anyone clear up these mysteries, or will we just have to
wait for the sequel when somebody picks up the alien queen floating
in space in MORE ALIENS? Personally I think they did a magnificent
job on both ALIEN and ALIENS and should quit while they're ahead.

Incidentally, I recently learned that when ALIEN first came out they
had those facehuggers on the market. You would put it on your face
and bite down on the tube so it wouldn't fall off. Something about
deliberately putting one of those on your face gives me the willies!
And a friend of mine was in Califonia this summer and told me they
had ALIENS T-shirts there. The T-shirt is covered with blood and
guts and has a rubber snake sticking out of the middle. It would be
nice to rig one up so the snake would pop out when you hit a hidden
control. And of course a ketchup pack would add to the effect.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 06:24:41 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Part 3 : MORE ALIENS

>In ALIEN the movie we never did see what happened to Dallas and the
>others whom the alien captured.  In the novelization Ripley finds
>Dallas and Brett encased in cocoons with alien larvae feeding on
>them.

Supposedly critics who reviewed the film as late as a week before
its actual release saw these scenes.  They were cut at the last
moment.  Ridley Scott claims that they slowed the pace of the film.
More likely, they decided the scenes were a bit strong for the
general public.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 86 01:07:25 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: Explosive Projectiles

> gelfand@valid.UUCP (Brooks Gelfand):
> Anyway, when the Marines first mentioned that they carried
> explosive- tipped, armor-piercing rounds in their weapons, I was
> delighted.  Nothing better to use on an exoskeletoned beast than
> something that would 1. penetrate that armor and 2. promptly blow
> up.  Like putting an M-80 or three inside a pumpkin -- kablooey.
> Much better than, say, a lead slug or lead pellets.

Hey, Maude!  Check this out!  We got *data* on the Net!  Yeah, like
facts and shit.  No kidding.  [see below, not above.]  I am replying
STRICTLY with respect to AlienS [the movie] so MOST of the
*excellent* article that Brooks Gelfand wrote is NOT here.  Look for
it in full.

>Rounds such as the "bazooka" and other rocket projectiles that use
>heat to burn through the armor.

Not relevant to the rounds used by the Marines in AlienS, as far as
I can tell.

>Rounds such as HEP-T that coat the armor on the outside, detonate,
>set up vibrations in the armor causing it to splinter. The
>splinters then kill the crew.

Also not relevant, I think.  In other words, the Marine rounds in
the movie are either like 1. above -- just bullets -- or else they
are for-real exploding type bullets.

>The problem with armor piercing round that are also explosive are
>two fold. The detonator must be robust enough to survive
>penetrating the armor yet quick enough to detonate while the
>projectile is still in the target. To complicate matters the target
>may be located from several meters to several HUNDRED meters from
>the muzzle. At close range we don't want the projectile to pass
>through the target and then detonate; at distance we don't want the
>projectile to detonate before it has penetrated the target.
>Examples of these two problems can be seen in certain events of
>World War II.

        [examples deleted.]

>Last we come to the safties on the fuze. The American 40mm grenade
>has two safties, a set back and a rotation counter. The set back is
>activated by the acceleration when the round is fired; the rotation
>counter insures that the shell will not detonate closer than 30
>feet from the firer. This would be minimum for any explosive
>projectile. [...]  This is a lot of complicated and expensive
>machinery to add to a rifle bullet.

>For an armor (or exoskeleton) defeating anti-personnel (anti-bug)
>round, I would perfer a high velocity, heavy (to retain velocity)
>projectile capable of piercing the armor which would upset (so it
>would not exit) and bounce around inside destroying the soft
>vulnerable parts.

Nit-picky time.  The Marines used a *standard* round.  Not one
custom-made for exoskeletoned Bugs.  Which is a shame, though the
standard round they used seemed to work just fine.  Rather than have
the slug upset, I would have it fragment [like a dum-dum or
mercury-filled bullet] to cause maximum internal damage.  I'm sure
that either of these would plausibly be termed
'exploding' but would NOT, unfortunately, be armor-piercing.

I want to interject here that the AlienS' exoskeletons have to be
VERY tough.  A standard Earth insect cannot be much more than a few
inches long and still move at all -- weight increases too fast, and
the musculature that moves any exoskeletoned creature will not
provide enough strength past that size.  Hence the arrival of
center-boned creatures with muscles OUTSIDE the support structure.
BUT THE ALIENS DON'T HEED THIS LIMITATION and that MUST mean that
their exoskeletons are BOTH preternaturally strong and light.
Perhaps metallic-based?  [Assuming they really have exoskeletons at
all.]  So armor-piercing is a VERY good description of what one
would need to hurt one of these buggers.

>This would be a jacketed lead (for weight) projectile with a
>penetrator core. Voila no moving parts, highly reliable, very
>effective, and cheap.

I guess that the lead jacket mushrooms against the exoskeleton and
the core continues on through the armor, upsetting and tumbling.
Don't shoot that baby at me.

My preference remains for a round that is completely rigid, so all
of it penetrates, and that literally exploded just an instant after
penetration, so the rigid round splinters into rigid shrapnel.
Would you allow me an impact-sensitive chemical explosive core as
one solution?  [I will appeal to the advanced science of the future
to supply this explosive in time for the movie.]

More comments from the peanut gallery, please.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 01:41:35 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@caip.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: Explosive Projectiles

benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Thomas Cox) writes:
>My preference remains for a round that is completely rigid, so all
>of it penetrates, and that literally exploded just an instant after
>penetration, so the rigid round splinters into rigid shrapnel.
>Would you allow me an impact-sensitive chemical explosive core as
>one solution?

Nope.  When you slam that impact-sensitive explosive forward (read:
fire it), it would go off in the barrel.  You would shock it even
more when firing it than it would be shocked when it slammed into
the bug-eyed monster. . . .  (It'd lose energy from air resistance
and such).

You'd probably get a nice shotgun effect, IF your gun's barrel were
suffi- ciently strong to withstand the blast, but it would have very
little range, low accuracy, and poor penetration, I would think.
It'd also shred the inside of the barrel rather quickly.

Besides, I wouldn't want to carry any of that ammunition around; if
it were hit while in battle, it'd blow up in the soldier's pocket.
Not good.

I'd much rather have something like the smart bullets in Vernor
Vinge's book, _The_Peace_War_.  Just add a bit of programming to set
off the explosive charge after impact. . . .

Michael Justice
BITNet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET:  boreas@bucsb.UUCP
UUCP:  ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 14:17:51 -0500
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: Bishop/Pistol

   What about the simple solution for this question. If Bishop is in
the pipe (and this was a rather tight fit), he sure couldn't fire
the gun behind him because of the cramped conditions. If an Alien
was in front of him and he hit it the way would be blocked by dead
Alien and much acid, assuming of course that the acid exploding in
the confined area didn't short circuit him (it?). Also, firing a
weapon in such a confined area could cause a problem from many
sources...heat, deflection, concussion, etc.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 15:53:09 GMT
From: imsvax!paul@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Knight)
Subject: Re: Explosive Projectiles/Exoskeletons

benn@sphinx.UUCP (Thomas Cox), discussing the kinds of bullets one
would like to have when shooting AlienS:

>I want to interject here that the AlienS' exoskeletons have to be
>VERY tough.  A standard Earth insect cannot be much more than a few
>inches long and still move at all -- weight increases too fast, and
>the musculature that moves any exoskeletoned creature will not
>provide enough strength past that size.  Hence the arrival of
>center-boned creatures with muscles OUTSIDE the support structure.
>BUT THE ALIENS DON'T HEED THIS LIMITATION and that MUST mean that
>their exoskeletons are BOTH preternaturally strong and light.
>Perhaps metallic-based?  [Assuming they really have exoskeletons at
>all.]  So armor-piercing is a VERY good description of what one
>would need to hurt one of these buggers.

The argument for a super-tough exoskeleton is not convincing:

1) Insect size is constrained much more by their metabolic
requirements than by the physics of muscle attachment to the
exoskeleton.  They don't have lungs or efficient circulation of
"blood" to support a large body mass.  They respire through the
exoskeleton, which does limit its thickness.  They also depend on
movement of the exoskeleton to provide pumping for respiratory
processes, limiting its rigidity.  It's not clear that AlienS are
constrained in this way.

2) I'm not convinced that an exoskeleton is so bad for construction
of fairly large bodies.  Examples: Most cars now use a unibody
construction, which is based on the strength of the steel shell,
rather than an I-beam frame (skeleton).  Humans wearing armor are
essentially using both endo- and exoskeletons, and can be fairly
agile in this configuration.

3) If we don't require the exoskeleton to be uniformly thick, then
it can provide strength for body support, while not being terribly
thick or strong at all points.  Crabs, some of which grow fairly
large, use this structure.  AlienS built on this model, with an
efficient respiration system, could be as large as we observe [:-)]
and still be relatively vulnerable.  (to a pot of boiling water and
Old Bay seasoning.... yum)

Paul Knight

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 18:46:58 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Aliens: Why did Bishop give back the pistol to Karen
Subject: Allen?

>Couldn't it also be because the androids basically are nonviolent?
>In the movie I didn't see Bishop actually do any combat. If
>androids at that time really were programmed with Asimov's law,
>this would seem to reinforce pacifistic tendencies.

There's a better reason than that.  If Bishop is attacked by aliens,
then the pistol wouldn't save him.  Therefore it is useless.  So why
encumber himself with it?

I doubt that an android sent on a mission to exterminate aliens
would have a builtin prohibition against exterminating aliens.  Why
unnecessarily reduce their fighting force by one from the beginning?
Especially since Bishop is the best soldier you could ask for: fast,
strong, obeys orders and is next to impossible to kill.  Bishop was
also the smartest "person" there, though, and probably felt he would
be more useful in the lab.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 86 0927-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #354
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 354

Today's Topics:

              Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars,
              Radio - SF Radio & Clarke,
              Miscellaneous - Ringworld (2 msgs) & Comics &
                      Good SF vs Bad SF & Weapons at Cons (4 msgs) &
                      Christmas with Doctor Asimov

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 09:16:49 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Karl Cialli <ur-tut!agoe@caip.rutgers.edu>
Cc: galloway@b.isi.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV release date

The original release date of STIV WAS Dec 12 until recently, when it
was advanced to Nov 26 for reasons unexplained.  The source of this
info is Magel Barrett-Roddenberry and William Shatner, who appeared
a few weeks back at a Creation Convention in Los Angeles.
(Basically, Shatner was unable to make the 20th anniversary
convention in Anaheim, so they hacked this one up just for him.)

They mentioned the old posters which proclaimed Dec 12 as the date,
suggesting that these posters might now have special collecter's
value much the same as the early "Revenge of the Jedi" posters.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Oct 86 14:50:17 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: STIV release date

The local movie theatre has confirmed November 26 as the "tentative
release date" for THE VOYAGE HOME. And, BTW, no more spoilers about
the movie from people who have seen it, OK? And also, if you must
spoil, no opinions...  The scene with Kirk and Spock in Sickbay
after Vejur could be easily run down too. (Does Scotty really use a
Macintosh 8~)?)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 21:36:27 GMT
From: c8-2cc@seymour.Berkeley.EDU (Cindy W. Yan)
Subject: Re: Star Wars I (not IV)

jaymin@tcdmath.UUCP (Joe Jaquinta) writes:
>I have heard that they have started filming Star Wars I (or -3 if
>you prefer {-2 for mathemeticians}). Does anybody know if this is
>true and if so what is the supposed plot summary?

I'm not sure if they've actually started filming yet or not, but I
did hear that they have started on the creatures for that. I heard
that Industrial Light and Magic (ILM) in Marin (near Berkeley) is
working on the creatures that they're using for that film. The idea
of the first trilogy is supposed to be a recounting of what happened
between Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker. That's
about all I know. It's supposed to tell, in greater detail than in
"Jedi", how Anakin came to be with the Dark Side. BTW, the last
trilogy, beginning with Star Wars VI, is supposed to continue the
adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han and the gang.  It's supposed to
pick up after "Jedi", but I don't know if it will ever be made. I
hope that helps.

Cindy

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 86 14:05:42 GMT
From: alan@idec.stc.co.uk (Alan Spreadbury)
Subject: Re: Theme Story Request

From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
>Just to get away from time travel, could I ask you SF lovers for
>some story titles based on this plot device:
>
>  There is another planet in our solar
>  system, sharing the Earth's orbit but
>  on the opposite side of the sun
>
>.... stuff deleted ...
>
>    in which the planet is called Antigeos
>
>Any more?

I can't give you a name, but I dimly recall a radio serial in the
early fifties (when I was but a lad!) which featured the planet
Antigeos.  I seem to remember that it was on the BBC Light Programme
(none of that Radio [1-4] nonsense in those days), and was broadcast
on Sunday afternoons.

The only thing I can rember about the plot was that it involved the
nationalisation of the football pools, who were marking their demise
by giving record dividends (I'm sorry if this is unintelligible to
our US readers).  This was a topical subject at the time, as the
post-war Atlee government had just been nationalising everything in
sight.

Any other geriatrics remember it?

Alan Spreadbury.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 16:09:04 GMT
From: fluke!witters@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke's "Songs of Distant Earth" on the radio.

Arthur C. Clarke's "Songs of Distant Earth" is being broadcast on
our local public radio station.  It is being read by Dick Estelle
(sp?) in his Radio Reader program on one of the public radio
networks (NPR or APR).  Here in Seattle it is being read Monday
through Friday at 10:00 PM on KUOW.

"Songs of Distant Earth" was published this year.  I haven't read
the book, but based on the one episode I've heard, it sounds like
the typical "Sun goes nova, so humankind is forced to colonize the
universe" story.  It's the same kind of stuff Clarke has been doing
since the 1950s.  I really like these kind of stories, so I eagerly
look forward to reading it (when it comes out in paperback).
Incidently, I don't think the book uses FTL (Faster Than Light)
travel (at least it didn't in the one episode I heard).

John Witters
John Fluke Mfg. Co.  Inc.
P.O.B. C9090 M/S 245F
Everett, Washington  98206
(206) 356-5274

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 15:38:17 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: R/R-WORLD:  DATA

rubin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Rubin) writes:
>A general question on ringworlds: what keeps 'em from collapsing
>across the WIDTH of the ring, like a stepped-on tuna fish can?
>There is a lot of mass around the edges, and each rim attracts the
>other in an attempt to become an accretion disk.  Solar gravity
>(i.e. tidal force) also pulls slightly toward the midline.

What keeps it from collapsing toward the *center* (if I understand
you correctly) is the "artificial gravity," the centrifugal force
pushing outward at 1G.  Certainly, the force (or should I say
acceleration?), from the sun *isn't* 1G, but M/(8.65E+07 sq.mi.) G,
where M is the mass of the sun in Earth masses.  (Forgive any errors
in calculation; I'm work- ing this out on my fingers and toes!)  The
mass may be large, but not that large.  When was the last time you
saw someone fall off the Earth (1G) into the sun ((some ung*dly)G)?

>One could make a ringworld squash-proof by bending the edges
>outward slightly for a ") (" cross-section; that way the surface
>would be normal to centrifugal force plus ring self-attraction and
>solar tides, not just centrifugal force.

Wouldn't the air run off the sides? Or, at least, away from the
center?  Hmmmm,...

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 08:10:45 GMT
From: gaynor@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Silver)
Subject: Re: R/R-WORLD:  DATA

topaz!rubin writes:
> A general question on ringworlds: what keeps 'em from collapsing
> across the WIDTH of the ring, like a stepped-on tuna fish can?

nike!orion!kaufman writes:
> What keeps it from collapsing toward the *center* (if I understand
> you correctly) ...

What I think rubin means is, "What keeps a ringworld from
decomposing to a hoopworld?".  That is, viz, what keeps

       /---------------\
   /---                 ---\
  |\---                 ---/|
  |    \---------------/    |
  |                         |   (the general shape of a tank-top...)
  |                         |
  |                         |
   \---                 ---/
       \---------------/

from becoming

       /---------------\
   /---                 ---\
  |\---                 ---/|   (the general shape of something much
  |    \---------------/    |    more revealing than a tank-top! ;-)
   \---                 ---/
       \---------------/

via much crumbling and general environmental discomfort....

I was only trying to help!,
Silver.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Oct 86 15:23 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: comics

I have noticed many incidental mentions of comic books on the net
recently, indicating that a lot of people have contact with the
genre, if they're not actually collectors.  My question is this: How
are comics perceived by sf fans in general?

Secondly, I would be *extremely* interested in knowing of any
digests devoted to comics along the lines of sf-lovers.

Greg Morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 13:47:37 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Good Science Fiction vs Good Fiction

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
>  He was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate sense.
>Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean "that's
>impossible".
>  Actually, GOOD science fiction of course consist of things which
>are NOT impossible.

   It seems to me that if this is so, then very little science
fiction (including most of the best stuff from the literary point of
view) is "good". Why is 'Rendezvous with Rama' "good" and 'The Time
Machine' "bad"?

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 14:08 EST
From: randell jesup (jesup@ge-crd.arpa)
Subject: re: weapons policies

   I have been at cons with both ends of the spectrum of weapons
policies, and definitely prefer the less restrictive.
   Lastcon has always had a relatively sane weapons policy.  Weapons
must be peace bonded (except, I believe, when on stage at the
masquerade, and then they must be considered safe.)  The con
security people CHECK the peace-bonding if they have any doubt, and
if you do not bond it, or draw a weapon, you can easily be excluded
from the con forever.  As far as I know, in 4 Lastcons, no one has
broken the weapons policy.  Security has the right to say 'put that
in your room' if they feel the need.  There have been no problems
with mundanes in the hotel, even when it wasn't 'blocked'.
Genericon has similar rules.
   I find that I enjoy a con such as Lastcon more because of this.
I wear costumes (as do many others) that are appropriate to wear
weapons with.  (I also have a samurai persona, as well as a middle
ages persona (I am also a member of the Society for Creative
Anachronism (Middle Ages re-creation))).
   The SCA manages with no peace-bonding and REAL edged weapons
without any problems, though they usually (but not always) deal with
mundanes less.
   To do this at a con, you must have an adequate security force
willing to ensure that peace bonding is enforced, and
convention-goers that respect this.  You must impress on them that
they are GUESTS, and also representatives of fandom to the mundane
world around them.  Encourage people to feel reponsible, and to use
common sense.  Inform the local police whats going on, and that
people in unusual costumes may be walking around (though beat it
into the con-goers heads NOT to take weapons outside - have a
weapons check at the door, for example.

Randell Jesup
Jesup@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 10:42:22 PDT
From: obrien%pluto@rand-unix.ARPA
Cc: obrien%pluto@rand-unix.ARPA
Subject: Re: Weapons policies at conventions

   I am not a weapons fan.  I have never been a weapons fan and I
never will be one.  Imagine my surprise, then, when I was bitten by
the weapons policies.

   I attended the last Boskone but one carrying an art piece: a
7-foot rosewood wizard staff with a large quartz crystal in a wooden
cage at the top.  It cost many hundreds of dollars and is heavier
than ****.  The registration people's jaws dropped when they saw it,
then they banned it as a weapon.  Everyone I've talked to since
(who's seen the staff) has been aghast at this decision.
Nevertheless, it is part and parcel of the "minimize the hassle and
damn all logic" attitude that many con-coms feel forced into by
their near-frantic attempts to avoid having the SWAT teams called in
due to a war game in the lobby.  (It's ironic how authoritarian many
of these otherwise libertarian folks become.  It's also the case
that in at least one instance the SWAT team WAS called in, and only
the grace of God prevented the death of at least one fan who didn't
recognize the real thing when he saw it and pointed his blaster at a
SWAT team member.)

   Leaving aside the fact that Boskone is one of the least fun cons
I've ever attended even aside from this hassle, I must remark that
the simple question "What is a weapon?" has yet to be satisfactorily
resolved, let alone the question of what to do about them.

   It seems obvious to me that given the paranoia present in the
mundane world about terrorism these days, some sort of weapons
policy is needed.  It's also obvious (to me at least) that banning a
wizard's staff is going too far.  Some con-coms, at least, are
certainly over- reacting, to the detriment of all.  I might suggest
that certain areas of the hotel be closed to the general public, and
weapons be allowed there.  I have no idea how practical this is, but
it is certainly true that blaster-waving in the lobby is no longer
practical in today's society.  Only the carry-over of the sanguine
attitude of the 50's ("It can't be real...this is America!") has
allowed it to continue thus far.  It's too bad, too. I like Tulio
Proni's work, though I'm not a weapons fan and am not tempted to buy
one.

   For myself, I've voted with my feet (as the con-com chair
recommended).  I've commissioned several more works from this
artist, and most fans will never see them, since I no longer attend
many conventions -- they're just not worth the hassle.

Mike O'Brien

------------------------------

Date: Fri 17 Oct 86 11:48:21-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Weapons policies

From what I've read on this list, it sounds like the Worldcon concom
rather overdid the weapons policy (no Isher weapons?  Come ON!).

Although I don't tend to carry anything more vicious than a cleaver
:-), I like my concom's policy: YOU KILL IT, YOU EAT IT.

Lynn Gold
Westercon XXXX Con Suite

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 21:10:55 GMT
From: cae780!gordon@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: weapons policies

JESUP@ge-crd.arpa writes:
>   Lastcon has always had a relatively sane weapons policy.
>Weapons must be peace bonded (except, I believe, when on stage at
>the masquerade, and then they must be considered safe.)  The con
>security people CHECK the peace-bonding if they have any doubt, and
>if you do not bond it, or draw a weapon, you can easily be excluded
>from the con forever.

Since I'm not "into" weapons at all, when I first saw the references
to "peace bonding", I assumed it involved posting a bond to ensure
that the weapon would not be used to disturb the peace, or whatever.
The above sounds more like it is "bonding [e.g. tying] a gun into
its holster".

Could someone please inform a semi-mundane?

FROM:   Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc.
UUCP:   tektronix!cae780!gordon
        {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amdcad!cae780!gordon
        {hplabs, resonex, qubix, leadsv}!cae780!gordon
USNAIL: 5302 Betsy Ross Drive/#58137, Santa Clara, CA  95052-8137
AT&T:   (408)748-4817 [direct]    (408)727-1234 [switchboard]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 86 13:55:58 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Christmas with the Doctor!

No, not that Doctor, but Isaac Asimov!  Neiman Marcus is offering a
special weekend with Dr. A. as part of its christmas catalog.  For
only $950 a couple (airfare extra) you can spend the weekend of
december 5-7 with Asimov, who will read a sci-fi piece created for
the weekend -- sans ending.  The couples can then get together and
come up with their versions of the ending.

A definite must for all sci-fi fans!  If you're interested, call the
NM travel bureau.

chuq

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 86 0944-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #355
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 355

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 17:10:05 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes:
>I would agree to do as you ask if they only named it something
>else.  The words star and trek together (i.e. Star Trek) mean one
>thing: The Enterprise Capt. Kirk Mr. Spock Scotty Bones Chekov
>Uhura Sulu etc.
>
>Working together to make a team (that is Star Trek).
>
>I am not saying that the new program will be crap (but it might
>be...all indications of present network philosophy point to that
>being the case): but they should not (must not) name it Star Trek.

Gaack.  Aren't you just a *little* tired of those characters by now?
Aside from that, I disagree with your premise: Kirk, Spock,
Enterprise, these are not Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry is Star Trek.
I think we've lost sight of that sometime during the last 10 years.

I could see maybe some of the original characters carried over in
new positions, I.E., Sulu as Captain, Uhuru as space station
commander, something like that, but to keep the same old officers in
the same old positions on the same old bridge for all eternity
doesn't sound very interesting to me.  Or to the actors, by all
accounts.  Besides, is it realistic to have all those senior
officers stationed on the same ship?

Luckily, we may not have to put up with that.  According to an
article in the SF Cronicle, Paramount was concerned that a series
would undermine the market for the Star Trek movies, and was
reassured on that point when it was decided not to include any of
the original cast in the series.  Roddenberry is going to have
creative control of the series, and may include cameo appearances by
the original cast on occasion.  Since the new series takes place 100
years later, this will need a little magic (oops, 24th century
science), but it could be done.  Finally, Roddenberry (how do you
spell that?)  said he wanted to make a series about *people*, not
hardware, and chooses an SF setting because it makes the interaction
between people more interesting.  In other words, I don't think
we're going to get cardboard characters wandering around amongst
special effects fireworks like, for instance, the Buck Rogers show.
(I still want to see what happens when Twikki meets the trash
masher.  BdeBdeBdeGrrkkkk...)

Anyway, I think the future of Star Trek is new blood.  Let's enlarge
our horizons a little.

Now, another thing: If I clamored for anything with the new show, it
would be CONTINUITY.  One of the primary weaknesses in the original
series, in my opinion, was the formula approach: Teaser, minor
crisis at 15 minutes, major crisis at 30 minutes, climax at 45
minutes, solve the problem in the last 10 minutes and a trailer to
leave them laughing.  Booorrring.  I'd like to see some plot threads
that take more than 60 minutes to solve.  I'd also like to see more
than one plot per program.  We're not kids anymore.  (Even the kids
aren't kids anymore.)

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 09:17 CDT
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: star dates

As I recall from the ST Technical Manual, stardates do rotate.  The
first two digits are the last two digits of the year, the next two
digits are the number of the month (1=january, etc.), then a decimal
point followed by the number of the day.  So October 16th, 1986
(today) would be 8610.16 .  Stardates between 1800 and 3500 would
occur over a 17 year period, and 7500 (middle 7000's) would be forty
years later.  Now, if ST:TMP is 7500, and TWOK is 8000 that's only
five years so that is not totally ridiculous.  This all just goes to
show that stardates have never been consistent (until recently,
perhaps), and authors of episodes used a lot of license.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 06:02:35 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rick Kolker) writes:
> The one thing that will help keep the writing at a high level is a
> good Story Editor.  The SE edits, watches consistancy, and even
> rewrites to make sure the writing is true to the series and the
> concept.  For example, Harlan Ellison's original "City on the
> Edge..." was a great story, but not great Star Trek.  The final
> version, after rewrite was both.

What they did to "City on the Edge of Forever" was vandalise it in
order to make it "wholesome, family entertainment," suitable for
prime time broadcast by a major network during the 1960's.  DRUGS IN
SPACE?!  Oh, damn!  We'll get sued for causing an aspiring young
American Jack-Armstrong-type astronaut to O.D. on some of those
nasty drugs that have been polluting our society and corrupting our
youth!  Take all o' that out, and put in some hastily-concocted
fillers!  After all, by the 23rd century, everything will be
absolutely perfect.  We'll have this thing called the United
Federation of Planets that brings "the American Way" to the whole
damn galaxy -- by that time everyone will have realised that WE were
right, and those nasty reds and European socialists were wrong.
Yeah, we'll even put in Chekov to show how their descendants have
been redeemed by Truth, Justice, The American Way, and other values
common to Captain Kirk, Captain America, Superman, Batman ("Let's
consult batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu, Robin."), and Jerry Falwell.

Matthew Belmonte
ARPA:  <belmonte@rocky.cs.cornell.edu>
       <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 18:28:00 GMT
From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) writes:
>What they did to "City on the Edge of Forever" was vandalise it in
>order to make it "wholesome, family entertainment," suitable for
>prime time broadcast by a major network during the 1960's.  DRUGS
>IN SPACE?!  Oh, damn!  We'll get sued for causing an aspiring young
>American Jack-Armstrong-type astronaut to O.D. on some of those
>nasty drugs that have been polluting our society and corrupting our
>youth!

Oh, Good Lord...calm down. This was one of my favorite
"Harlan-Ellison- is-Being-a-Baby" stories...I did a little work
tracking it down.

The story was edited because Harlan didn't want to stick to the Star
Trek Universe format. You are quite right about it being originally
a drug-abuse story...unfortunately, the Drug Pusher was Scotty.
This, of course, did not fit into to Roddenberry's ideas of "there
have to still be some virtuous heroes left in the world for us to
look up to." So, Scotty could not be a drug pusher, so Harlan had a
tantrum...he still won the Hugo for the script.

Star Trek wasn't perfect, because it was on TV, but it did manage to
break a few taboos: an interracial kiss, a crew of women who knew
what they were doing, no one smoked cigarettes, etc. They did
stories about communism, homosexuality, incest (sortof), etc. I'm
sure that the fact that Ellison was dealing with something as
sensitive as drug abuse wouldn't have scared off the production crew
too much.

In some respects, I agree with Ellison: writing is an art form and
shouldn't be screwed around with...however, television (and the
movies) is an "Artform by Committee." There are, of course, terrible
problems with this schema..but Harlan, rather than trying to work
around the problems, or trying to combat the problems from the
inside, holds his breath until he turns blue. If he still doesn't
get it *his* way, he walks...kinda childish, if you stop and think
about it.

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 17:43:48 GMT
From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  No Century of Progress

From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
>The striking thing about the ST milieu is how similar it is to our
>own.  It is more similar to our society than ours is to Edwardian
>England.  Certainly someone transported out of our time would feel
>more at home in the ST society than in the Edwardian one.  ...
>It's what you'd expect in 2000 AD if some aliens showed up tomorrow
>and *sold* us a fleet of Enterprise-like ships.

I wonder what would have happened if some aliens had showed up and
sold Edwardian England a fleet of Enterprise ships. Maybe a little
more training might have been necessary but would the end product
in terms of Star Trek society been any different. There would have
been a Ships Captain,Doctor, and Engineer etc .An officer class
would have ordered untold numbers of minions about (probably not
used up quite so quickly as cannon fodder as on the real ST) The
Universe may well have been run differently, but the individual
ships could have been run on very similar lines.

On behalf of,
Karen McMullan
adt@ukc.ac.uk
University of Kent,
Canterbury,
Kent.
England.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 16:31:42 GMT
From: fluke!witters@caip.rutgers.edu (John Witters)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  No Century of Progress

> Yeah, it occurred to me that with a working transporter, life on
> Earth must resemble something out of a Niven story...  Until I
> realized that transporters are probably hideously expensive,
> complex, and dangerous in the ST universe.  (Remember all the
> transporter related accidents in the series, and the two people
> killed in the first movie.)  Something as unreliable as the
> transporter would probably not be used commercially, hence other
> modes of transportation, like the super-bart, would be more
> likely.

Would anyone care to compile statistics of transporter safety v.s.
automobile safety in the 20th century?  I remember reading that the
U.S. Army was losing more soldiers in auto accidents than in battle
during the Korean war.  That's why the Army began to require safety
belts in jeeps in the 1950s.  I assume that transporters would have
to be at least as safe as automobiles or they wouldn't be used.

John Witters
John Fluke Mfg. Co.  Inc.
P.O.B. C9090 M/S 245F
Everett, Washington  98206
(206) 356-5274

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 08:35:20 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: star dates

According to Franz Joesph, author of the Tech Manual, Ballantine
wanted to put the words "Star Trek" on the cover and he said no.
The compromise they aggreed on was to put a removable 'Star Trek'
signage on the outside of a removable black vinyl binding over 'The
Star Fleet Techincal Manual.'

Alas, when the re-realeased it this year the new printing droped the
removable signage.  If this is what you are consulting, I understand
your error.

(BTW, be on the look-out for Fan rip-off copies with NO copyright
notice.)

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc]
BIX:  victoro
Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro
People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro
Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 01:27:46 GMT
From: isis!dragheb@caip.rutgers.edu (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

You are not the only one to put forth the idea that ST is not just a
bunch of characters (I do agree: it is not a bunch of ACTORS).  It
is the first time I gave this serious thought, and this is what I
came up with:

ST is the ideals.  It is what it stands for.  BUT: Kirk Spock et al.
are the media that put forth those ideals.  As in ANY form of art
that is itself not life, the characters are a bit exaggerated so
that they may interact more completely (for the audiences benefit).

We have Spock: logical
We have Bones: etc. (I doubt I need to list what makes each
        character unique :-)

Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could
possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put forth
those ideals?  the characters of the original ST (which, I admit,
grew with time) worked together very well...their eccentricities and
oddities FORCED them to show the ideals that ST stood for, and tried
to overcome (like when Kirk wanted to blast the Gorn, and Spock kept
running off the regulations and talking about war etc.)

I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of
creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the
last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the
intelligence of the network planners!

UUCP:{hplabs, seismo}!hao!isis!dragheb

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 13:46:07 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@caip.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes:
>Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could
>possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put
>forth those ideals?

Yes, maybe in a different way, but yes.
>I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of
>creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the
>last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the
>intelligence of the network planners!

C'mon now---Sturgeon's law here, 90% of anything is shit.  There is
great TV coming from the networks in 1986, just as there was in
1976, 1966 (when ST debuted) and 1956.  There is also a lot of
garbage.

Some of the good stuff gets good ratings.  Some of the garbage gets
good ratings.  There is also a lot in the middle, good ideas badly
executed, and bad ideas well executed.

The new Star Trek (not on a network) may be great, it may be
mediocre, it is unlikely to be crap (but not impossible).  But let
it rise and fall on its own merits.

And remember Spock's Brain.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 19:50:51 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Star Trek and Social Change

haste@andrew.cmu.edu writes:
>ST society is our society without the features that we, today,
>deplore--a sanitized 1980, a society we'd be pleased to live in.
>ST society is one with the same ideals as ours.

Wellllll, I think the societal (is that a word?) ideals in Star Trek
is rather a sanitized 1969...  Anyway, things are certainly looser
than now.  Miniskirts are back. (Even in the movies -- check out the
background when Kirk gets off the shuttle in ST-TMP.)  Intolerance
is at an all time low, Etc.  Now, ask yourself: Does this *really*
reflect the 80's?  Hate to tell you, but intolerance is on the rise.
(Although there was a brief flurry of miniskirts a year or so ago.
Sigh...)

Now, I'm NOT saying there was no intolerance in 1969, but I think
Roddenberry checked out the tendancy and extrapolated from that.
What he didn't account for was the present backswing.  Perhaps on
purpose.  Do we really want to see a series/movies about a
totalitarian society?

Now, the above assumes that the ST universe would represent
something we already know.  That, of course, may not be the case.
But, at least part of the idea of a ST series is to get lots of
people to watch it, and you don't do that by presenting a society
that's confusing or even revolting by our own narrow standards.
Even if it were entirely possible.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 86 0826-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #356
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Oct 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 356

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Card & Finney & LeGuin &
                McCaffrey (2 msgs) & Prescott & Ace Doubles &
                Alternate Earths & Upcoming Books &
                Story Request & Help on Finding Books &
                Story Request Answer,
        Magazines - IF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 19:13:15 GMT
From: ides!kimi@caip.rutgers.edu (Kimiye Tipton)
Subject: Re: RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony

>                     RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony
>                     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
> ...message that Anthony is putting out is that racial purity is
> necessary to species vitality and, by extension, that
> miscegenation is bad.  Anthony apparently thinks that racial lines
> are clear-cut and that the current racial groups are somehow
> internally "pure."  That is horse-puckey and so is the book.

I'm glad Evelyn reviewed this one, because the book left a sour
taste in my mind, too.  Being the result of miscegenation myself, I
wasn't sure if I was being too sensitive in thinking this book was
racist.  But in reading your review I suddenly became aware of the
pun in the title, and now I don't think I'll ever be able to take
Anthony as pleasant mind candy for long plane trips again.

Whether Anthony personally believes in racial purity is beside the
point-- a white supremeist would love giving this book to children.
It presents an apparently unbiased, logical argument that we've all
got a lot to lose by losing racial identity.  But the argument
ignores the fact that there is no such thing as *racial*
identity--my roots are Japanese and American, not Oriental and
Caucasian.  Convince me that there is a "white" culture, or a yellow
one, or a black one, and then I might concede that we've got
something to lose by blurring racial lines.  Then you'll also have
to convince me that there's anything we should be concerned about
losing.

But since I do believe in free speech to the point of admitting that
Hustler magazine has a right to exist, and I don't want to start up
the book boycott argument again, I hereby offer to mail my copy of
the book to anyone who just *has* to read it.  But I don't recommend
it.

Kimiye Tipton
Orlando, FL
{ihnp4, akgua, ulysses, allegra}!abfll!kimi

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 22:25:00 GMT
From: jpd249@uiucuxf.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Piers Anthony

Any body out there a Piers Anthony fan??

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 20:24:05 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony

>>                    RACE AGAINST TIME by Piers Anthony
>> groups are somehow internally "pure."  That is horse-puckey and
>> so is the book.
>
> I'm glad Evelyn reviewed this one, because the book left a sour
> taste in my mind, too.  Being the result of miscegenation myself,
> I wasn't sure if I was being too sensitive in thinking this book
> was racist.  But in reading your review I suddenly became aware of
> the pun in the title, and now I don't think I'll ever be able to
> take Anthony as pleasant mind candy for long plane trips again.

I wish I had seen these two bad reviews on "Race...".  I have
already bought the book and didn't know it was so bad.  I bought it
for mindless dribble and so far it has lived up to that, but I am
only up to chapter 5.  I have to admit that I haven't stopped
laughing yet, and I am sure I would have finished reading the book
if I had more the ten minutes to read it in (my schedule is unreal).

Please, will someone sent me a spoiler so I can forget reading it.
So far I haven't liked the Idea of race purity shown, but I thought
it had a point of showing that the zoo keepers were wrong.  Thanks
for any help.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 15:48:41 GMT
From: ihu1e!ttb@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas T. Butler)
Subject: Anyone read "Speaker for the Dead"?

I apologize if this has already been discussed on the net, I've been
away.

Has anyone read "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card?  It is
the sequel to "Ender's Game", which I found to be one of the most
enjoyable books I have read in recent years.  I would appreciate a
review by anyone who has had a chance to read it.  It is out in
hardcover only at present.  Reply by mail, or post to the net if of
general interest.

Thanks,
Tom Butler
..!ihnp4!ihu1e!ttb
(312) 979-7999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 12:30:54 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Finney
Cc: think!topaz!mtgzy!ecl

   Finney -"picking up where Bradbury leaves off"-? Well, maybe. I
would guess Finney is not much younger than Bradbury (an early
printing of the Finney collection THE THIRD LEVEL lists all the
stories as dating from the mid-50's), and his early work was
published in COLLIER'S and SATURDAY EVENING POST instead of SF zines
(a beuatiful irony, since Campbell was then telling writers that he
wanted stories which could be appearing in SAP in the future). In
fact, I find it fascinating that he was writing such stories in the
50's, which we think of now as a stultifyingly ordinary period.
   More significantly, there's a sense-of-wonder in Bradbury that's
completely missing in Finney, a sense of what the world was like
when it was full of wonderfully mysterious unknowns (i.e., when
\you/ were young); what Bradbury likes is those unknowns, rather
than the pastoral settings they pop up in.
   Finney has used the time-slip schtick even in less-nostalgic
stories. His least-unpalatable (to my taste---the standard
he-should-have-a-career, she-should-get-married schtick is a flaw in
most of his work) was reprinted in a PLAYBOY anthology: movie
company filming a period piece in New York dresses up after midnight
and takes the period bus out for a spin, where careerist supporting
actress meets her-age version of a local elderly character actor who
plays opposite her in the film.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 15:46:15 EDT
From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: Earth in LeGuin's universe

The reason that earth is sometimes a ruined world and sometimes not
is that LeGuin's stories in her "hainish" universe span several
thousand years.  Earth gets ruined by humanity before _The
dispossessed_, rebuilds itself, probably with much help from the
Hainish, gets ruined by the "enemy" (_City of illusions_,
_Rokannon's World_) and then rebuilds itself again when the enemy is
thrown off (_Left hand of Darkness_ takes place about six hundred
years after the "age of the enemy" if I recall correctly).

Michael McClennen

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 23:03:05 GMT
From: starfire!ddb@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

Anne McCaffrey's book _Get_Off_The_Unicorn_ was originally titled
_Get_Of_The_Unicorn_, until some alert proofreader found and "fixed"
the "mistake".

And my wife, Pamela Dean, had the entire dedication and
acknowledgements accidentally omitted from her second novel (The
Hidden Land, Ace).

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967
Telephone: (612) 721-8800
USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S
        Mpls, MN 55406

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 13:31:00 GMT
From: friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: sad state of proofreading

> Anne McCaffrey's book _Get_Off_The_Unicorn_ was originally titled
> _Get_Of_The_Unicorn_, until some alert proofreader found and
> "fixed" the "mistake".

As I recall McCaffrey's introduction to _Get_Off_The_Unicorn_, she
said that the typo was in a list of books she had agreed to write --
not in the book itself.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 03:24:48 GMT
From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Gor and Prescot

     The very first Prescot book, _Transit_to_Scorpio_, had some
comments (not very kindly) about a continent called Gah which
strongly resembles Gor.

     Personally, I like the Prescot books an awful lot (for very
light reading) and rather agree with the attitudes expressed therein
about Go.  I'm still missing a lot of Prescot's, mostly in the range
8-18 or so. I'm pretty sure they were published under Alan Burt
Akers name. If anybody knows where I can get a hold of them...

    Has anybody ever played Jikaida?

Bob Myers

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 15:41:34 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Ace Doubles

These go back a long way.  One of the earliest, for example, has as
one of the pair Asimov's "The Thousand Year Plan"--later retitled
"Foundation".

Initially, the doubles could be quite long, but by the 1960s they'd
settled on a 256-page format.  Far from being a way to stretch
novelletes, this became a way to chop novels.  I recall being told
that John Brunner was prominent among the writers who, when SF
writers acquired more clout, insisted in having their 127-page
novels reissued in their full length.

Off the top of my head, some of the better Ace double titles which I
haven't seen reissued include "Crisis in 2140" (H Beam Piper,
despite the claim that all his books have been reissued), "Reality
Forbidden" and "The Mad Metropolis" (Philip E High), "Crown of
Infinity" (author?), "Vulcan's Hammer" (Philip K Dick), "Ladder in
the Sky" (Woodcott?), "The Door Through Space" (Marion Zimmer
Bradley--who is not about to let this one be reissued), "The Star
Virus" (Dean R Koontz), "A Planet of Your Own" (title?) (John
Brunner?), "Light of Lillith" (author?), "Beyond Capella" ("John
Rackham")......

The list of excellent and familiar novels which first appeared in
this format is surprisingly long.

Dani Zweig

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 00:18:11 -0300
From: Ady Wiernik   <ady%taurus.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate Earths

What about the alternate earth mentiond in the third book of Philip
J. Farmer's World of Tiers series (I think the book name was "red
orc" - at least this was one of the major characters).

**** Spoiler ****

In this book, Kickaha finds out that the makers created earth, but
not one earth - they made two of them (for backup I assume). The
heros move between both earths using the usual Gates, and are chased
wildly by the bellers all the time.

**** End Spoiler ****

Ady Wiernik
ady@taurus.BITNET
Tel Aviv Univ.,
Israel

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 16:44:55 GMT
From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach; Lord of the
From: OtherRealms)
Subject: Upcoming from Donning/Starblaze

Just got the latest press releases from Donning/Starblaze, and I
thought I'd pass along the latest in the graphic novel world...

Starblaze has signed for two new graphic novel series in 1987 -- A
DISTANT SOIL written and illustrated by Colleen Doran, and GATE OF
IVREL, adapted and illustrated by Jane Fancher from C. J. Cherryh's
novel.

Both have previously been published as B&W comic book formats.  The
Graphic editions will be 64 page, perfect bound, and published
semi-annually.  Both will be in color.

A DISTANT SOIL will be available in March, 1987, GATE OF IVREL in
April.

[I got cover art for both #1's in B&W with the press release.  Both
look quite nice! -- chuq]

NEW COMEDY SERIES!

DUNCAN AND MALLORY, to be written by Robert Asprin and illustrated
by Mel.  White, this is the story of an unlikely team: Duncan, an
errant (and quite clumsy) knight, and Mallory, a con-artist CPA,
dragon, and general rabblerouser.  This will be semi-annual, in the
same format as Myth Adventures, starting Octover 1986.

[Cover art for this looks like White is trying to do Foglio and
doesn't quite make it.  I get the impression that they are trying to
duplicate Myth Adventures, probably because they're running out of
ideas and need a new venue.  It has promise, but I"m skeptical --
chuq]

October Releases:

AN EDGE IN MY VOICE by Harlan Ellison.  Revised edition of Hugo
Nominee collection of essays, trade paperback

FORTUNE'S FRIENDS: HELL WEEK by Kay and Mike Reynolds, illustrated
by Colleen Doran.  Trade Paper, color graphic novel.  First in a
new, semi-annual detective series.

MAGE #1 by Matt Wagner.  Trade paper.

TAKEOFF, TOO! by Randall Garrett, illustrated by Phil Foglio.  Trade
paperback, [yay! yippee!  -- chuq]

THIEVES' WORLD GRAPHIC #4 by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey, art by
Tim Sale.  Graphic Novel.  [This has been quite good so far... --
chuq]

THIEVES' WORLD GRAPHIC BOOK 1 -- THE COLOR EDITION by robert Asprin
and Lynn Abbey, art by Tim Sale.  Color Compilation of first three
Thieves' World graphic books [I'm not at all sure how this will
translate to color.  A big maybe -- chuq]

ON THE GOOD SHIP ENTERPRISE by Bjo Trimble.  An uncensored,
unauthorized Star Trek Memoir by the mother hen of Star Trek Fandom.
Trade Paper.  [should be a LOT of fun... -- chuq]

November Releases:

MYTH ADVENTURES TWO by Robert Asprin, art by Phil Foglio. Conclusion
of Another Fine Myth.

M.Y.T.H. INC. LINK by Robert Asprin, art by Phil Foglio. Trade
Paperback.

[have fun, y'all! -- chuq]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 86 08:00:10 -0800
From: Tim Shimeall <tim@ICSD.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Wolfman story request

Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably anthology
where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman story?

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 22:11:56 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Need help finding these books!

I have been looking all over for the folowing books and cannot find
them anywhere:

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SUPERHEROES by Jeff Rovin

ALL IN COLOR FOR A DIME by Lupoff and Thompson

INFORMAL HISTORY OF THE PULP MAGAZINE by Goulart

If anyone has these and would like to sell them I will take them off
your hands.  Alternatively, any hints on where to find them would be
greatly appreciated (None of them are listed in _Books In Print_).

Thanks,

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 15:51:24 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Story Request
From: Tallan.osbuNorth@Xerox.COM.osbunorth.ARPA

In response to David S. Cargo's request.

The story "The Beat Cluster" is from Fritz Leiber's book "A Pail of
Air", first published by Ballantine Books in 1964.

Michael Tallan

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 86 02:56:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

>Interestingly enough, I was turned on to SF by my grandmother in
>1952.  We lived with my grandparents, and my grandmother was a
>regular reader of Worlds of If, Galaxy, and other SF magazines.

  I think that the title cited is an anachronism.  My copies of
those old magazines are boxed up out of reach; so, I am going by
memory and the listings in the old Brad Day Checkslist.  In the
1950's that magazine was known as "IF Worlds of Science Fiction", or
more commonly, just plain "If".  The logotype looked something like:

   If
   Worlds       of
   Science Fiction

The "If" was, of course, very large in relation to the rest.  The
'running title' at the bottom of the magazine pages always read just
"If" and the date.
  In 1959 the magazine changed publishers and dropped the "Worlds
of" from the title to become just "IF Science Fiction".  In the
mid-60's the phrase was restored in its new place as a parallel to
the publisher's other SF titles "Worlds of Tomorrow" and "Worlds of
Fantasy".  This is probably one of the more peculiar title changes
that an SF mag has undergone; excepting the metamorphosis of
"Astounding Stories of Super-Science" into "Analog Science Fact ->
Science Fiction".

BTW.  I was introduced to SF by my mother; though, she did not read
the magazines until I discovered them!

Cheers to you, too!

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 86 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #357
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Oct 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 357

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 00:31:12 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber - the six-fingered dudes

cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes:
>     Two more questions.  Does Amber live in a solar system which
>is in a galaxy?  Has there been mention of any shadows which go
>back in time?

Boy, this gets into the nature of reality...  Are the shadows
parallel universes, actual places on other planets, or what?  I
favor parallel universes, the departure point being whatever last
detail the person has changed during his shadow walk.  You could say
that each of these places is an alternate earth orbiting an
alternate sun in an alternate universe...

Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia Centauri.
Let's say he knows what the terrain looks like, what the sun and
constallations look like, and shifts shadow until the
characteristics match exactly.  Now, where, physically, is he?

I don't think it matters.  When you have that tight a control of
'reality', when you can eventually journey to any place you can
imagine, mundane things like solar systems and galaxies don't count
for much.  No wonder the childern of Oberon are so arrogant.  :-)

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 00:54:57 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability  (Spoiler for Blood of
Subject: Amber)

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>[in regard to the origin of the shape shifting ability]
>>Well, I finished Blood quite recently and I can't see what
>>definitive answer you are referring to.  (To which you are
>>referring?  Whatever.)
>
>When Merlin faces the Dweller, Zelazny describes the process by
>which Merlin shifts - via the Logrus.

Sure, I said the same thing later on in the article you quoted
above.  (I think.  At least I intended to.) However, a) this doesn't
explain Dara, and b) that Merlin uses the Logrus to shapeshift
doesn't mean the Logrus is the only way to accomplish that bit of
magic.  For instance, I think we'll find that Jurt still hasn't
walked the Logrus, but found some other way to assume wolf form.
What if Merlin inherited his shape shifting ability from being 1/4
Hellmaid (whatever that is) and only uses the Logrus to make the
shift faster than he otherwise could have?

I could be wrong, of course.  I hope Zelazny nails this down (one
way or another) in the next book.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 08:27 MST
From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Amber: Ganelon, 'action', Dara

Trivia answer: In the Chanson de Rolant (Song of Roland), Ganelon
was the knight who betrayed the good guys (Christians) to the bad
guys (Saracens).  I think he was a companion of Roland's who sold
him out.  Remember that in medieval/Renaissance Christian ethos,
betrayal of a friend and lawful superior is the paramount sin, being
an image of Judas's betrayal of Christ: Dante's deepest circle of
Hell, immediately around the bound Devil, is reserved for Judas &
some other such traitors.  Corwin's reaction to Ganelon's name --
"That ratfink!" -- is quite appropriate to the urGanelon's behavior
and Corwin's style.

Reaction to the Amber books: I, too, feel that it's been a lot of
talk and little action until I review.  But that, I think, is
because a lot of the talk *is* review: recapitulation of history,
for the benefit of the amnesic Corwin, or other characters, and the
reader.  This is especially necessary because so much of the history
keeps changing: what seemed to be happening turns out not to have
been really happening, or not in that way, or to have been due to
such different motives from the way it seemed, that the past keeps
having to be revised or reinterpreted.  -- A professor of mine (the
linguist Charles Fillmore) once wondered aloud whether a book could
be written that would have to be read N times for full
understanding, because on the first reading you would discover at
the end something in whose light you'd have to go back and reread
everything to reinterpret it, and then in the rereading you'd
discover a second point that forced reinterpretation (but the second
point was not evident until you'd seen the first revelation), and so
on.  I thought not, because you'd be able to work it all out in your
head after finishing the text once.  But, of course, reading doesn't
work that way (at least for most people), and the Amber series is
proof.  You do have to keep rereading.

   ** SPOILER ** On Dara: She didn't pose as Benedict's daughter,
but as his great-granddaughter.  I think that this turns out to be
true, via Benedict's liaison with the hellmaid Lintra (and the
time-differential between Chaos and Avalon).  She walks the Black
Road -- or, how does she get to Amber ahead of Corwin?  -- and walks
the Pattern there.  (If she had walked any Pattern previously, why
would she need to walk it in Amber?)  -- I've only read the first 5,
so if any of this is answered later I don't know it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 08:36 MST
From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Amber: time-differential

Frank Adams's question about the direction of time-differential
between Amber and Chaos is right on the nose.  I think Zelazny
slipped here, getting the "sign" of the difference wrong.  This is
comparable to Niven's slip on the direction in which midnight moves
around the earth, but it goes to the foundations of the story and
cannot be repaired in a paragraph or two in the next edition.  it's
one of those goofs to which you have to shrug and say, "Oh, well,
suspension of disbelief just cracks at this point; I'll just have to
patch it and ignore the discontinuity."

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 19:00:32 GMT
From: iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Amber - Shape-shifting ability  (Spoiler for Blood of
Subject: Amber)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>Sure, I said the same thing later on in the article you quoted
>above.  (I think.  At least I intended to.) However, a) this
>doesn't explain Dara, and b) that Merlin uses the Logrus to
>shapeshift doesn't mean the Logrus is the only way to accomplish
>that bit of magic.  For instance,

You are correct in saying that Dara is not entirely explained.
However, it is known that natural shape-shifters exist (e.i.
shifting seems to be a natural ability).  They are first seen in
NINE PRINCES IN AMBER when amnesiac Corwin faces the weres which
shift from man to wolf.  Perhaps Dara is a natural were.

>I think we'll find that Jurt still hasn't walked the Logrus, but
>found some other way to assume wolf form.  What if Merlin inherited
>his shape shifting ability from being 1/4 Hellmaid (whatever that
>is) and only uses the Logrus to make the shift faster than he
>otherwise could have?

Merlin speculates that his attacker could have been placed in wolf
form by someone else (Mask?).  Maybe Merlin will ask the Unicorn
when he figures out who she is - she's a shifter too, by the way.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 16:49 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Amber Cosmology

As I generally interpret the pattern/Chaos relationship, when
Dworkin enscribed his pattern, reality at that point became isolated
and a duplicate pattern was created in a new reality, creating
shadow by interaction of Pattern and Chaos.  We really know very
little about the primal pattern's universe (more would be
*extremely* helpful), other than one has to warp shadow in a very
different manner than normally to reach it.  The geography of the
primal universe seems to duplicate (or, rather, be duplicated by)
Amber geography as one travels without shifting shadow.  When Corwin
created his pattern, then that part of reality became
difficult/impossible to reach (like Dworkin's).  It would be logical
to assume that a new polar universe has been created, reached by
Corwin's pattern.  Once Merlin walks it, we should find out.
Current Amber macro-geography would exist in three levels: First
Level: Dworkin's primal Pattern.  (Chaos, its original
surroundings?)  Second Level: Amber, the duplicate pattern, shadow,
Chaos, Corwin's primal pattern.  Third Level: Corwin's duplicate
pattern, new Amber?, shadow, Chaos.  Chaos may be discreet on all
levels, or it may be contiguous, an advantage on Corwin's level,
where access is severely restricted to those not of Chaos.  All of
the above is pure speculation and subject to revision upon
publication of new books.

A question about _The_Courts_of_Chaos_ (the last book in the first
series).  When Corwin was travelling to the Courts, he was
accompanied by a raven, and met a tree named Ygg, from which he got
a staff, which, when planted, began to grow anew.  What was Zelazny
doing with all this Norse symbology.  The raven would be reminiscent
of Odin's two, Hugin and Munin, and Ygg would be Yggdrasil, the
world oak.  What does this mean?  The new Ygg would seem to support
the theory that Corwin created a new universe (needing a new world
tree).

Greg Morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet(@wiscvm.wisc.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 17:10:24 GMT
From: altunv!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Silva)
Subject: Re: Trumping to Dworkin's apartment

ahby@meccsd.UUCP (Shane P. McCarron) writes:
>brad@altunv.UUCP (Brad Silva) writes:
>>I think you are overlooking something, you cannot shift shadow
>>WHILE YOU ARE IN AMBER.
>
> I got the impression that if you were good enough (read powerful
> enough) you could manipulate shadow from within Amber.  I just
> assumed that Dworkin could do it...

Sorry about that.  When I wrote that I was in the process of
re-reading the series and hadn't reached _The Hand of Oberon_ yet.
As it turns out in the hand of Oberon, shadow walking from amber is
possible because of the primal pattern, however it is extremely
difficult (Corwin tried it once he found out it was possible, with
limited success, towards the end of the book), and apparently even
Oberon prefered trumps.  BTW, I orginally thought Trumps were an
Amber phenomenon, but it seems Trumps are a technology that Dworkin
brought from the Courts of Chaos, as Trumps seem to work not only in
Chaos and Amber, but in Corwin's new universe as well.
    Oh, and as another thought.  Thinking back on the descriptions
Zelazny used to describe a walk through shadow, it sounds like some
change in scenery(sp?)  is nessesary for the change.  A quote from
_The Guns of Avalon_: "Steady movement is more important than speed,
much of the time.  So long as there is a regular progression of
stimuli to get your mental hooks into, there is room for lateral
movement.  Once this begins, its rate is a matter of discretion."
To me it seems that the technique Corwin had been tought required
some change scenery to make the change, and after using this method
or several hundred years, Corwin had no reason to doubt it.  Of
course we find out later, when Brand is teleporting himself all over
the place that this is not the only method (but, perhaps being
crazy, Brand did not need any "mental hooks" :-).

Brad Silva
...!ptfsa!gilbbs!altunv!brad

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 86 19:52:00 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Amber - Merlin

Why didn't Merlin walk Corwin's Pattern when Fiona took him there?

I think you have to discount his stated reason (had to get back for
a test).  This is more in the nature of an excuse.  (Yes, I know he
didn't give it to Fiona as an excuse.)  There are two fairly
plausible reasons.  One is simple fear -- walking the Pattern after
the Logrus may have been more difficult than for "ordinary"
descendents of Oberon; how much worse would a third one be?  Merlin
was not, I think, prepared to take that risk at that point.

Secondly, like his father, Merlin is very stubborn, and hates to be
forced or tricked into anything.  So when Fiona tries to trick him
into walking the Pattern, he tricks her into thinking he can't.  A
secondary point here is that he would rather not have Fiona know
that he is capable of the feat.

I have little doubt that Merlin will get around to walking this
Pattern sooner or later.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 18:50:54 edt
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Amber and Star Travel

>Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia Centauri.
>Let's say he knows what the terrain looks like, what the sun and
>constallations look like, and shifts shadow until the
>characteristics match exactly.  Now, where, physically, is he?

Nice question.  To make it more concrete, let's say that one of
Merlin's classmates (from our world) is headed there the hard way,
by space ship, and Merlin wants to meet him.  (So he must arrive at
*our* Proxima IV.)  How?  Two possibilities suggest themselves.

1.  Shadow-walk.  Just as Corwin can choose to arrive in our world
in France or the US, it is possible to choose to arrive on Proxima
IV.

2.  Walk to an earth-like shadow which is technologically a few
centuries ahead of our own, take the commuter flight to Proxima, and
shadow-walk to our Proxima.

The second option suggests a slightly more modest view of what a
shadow-walker can do, but brings up the question of whether a shadow
is created by a walker or merely found in a more pressing form:
What's involved in walking to a shadow with an arbitrarily high
level of technology?  Are most of the shadows we've seen (where
technology would be possible) not advanced because of the
limitations of the walkers' imaginations (or tastes) or because a
walker would, in some sense, have to *create* the technology.

Dani Zweig

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 22:20:13 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: nitpicking Amber question

This contains spoiler of the original Amber series, but not of the
(incomplete) second series.

I recently reread all seven books to date, the first five in two
sittings, but slowing down a bit on the last two.

>seem to recall that Dara merely posed as Benedict's daughter to get
>Corwin into trouble (and herself into a different kind of
>trouble...).  Have I forgotten this being turned around again
>later?

Yes, she really is Benedict's great-granddaughter -- her
great-grandmother was the "hell-maid" Lintra, who led the force
which Benedict had just defeated when Corwin encounteres him.  She
was *not* under Benedict's protection or even known to him in any
way.  This genealogy is revealed to Corwin when he visits Tir-na
Nog'th, and is thus a bit suspect; but it fits.

>Also, does Dara actually walk the Pattern (gaining general
>shadow-walking ability), or merely pass through Shadow on the Black
>Road?

She does walk the Pattern, racing ahead of Corwin after the battle
where Eric is killed, and announcing that "Amber will be destroyed"
before teleporting out from the center of the Pattern.  Her ability
to walk the Pattern is the strongest bit of evidence supporting the
claim that she is indeed a descendent of Benedict.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Oct 86 14:39:25 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Shadow-shifting

I think it said in COURTS OF CHAOS that it was possible to shift
shadows in Amber....There was a psychological barrier against doing
it, since Amber was supposed to be the absolute....Once Corwin knew
that there was a higher level of absolute which was not Amber, he
COULD shift shadows there.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 86 0908-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #358
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Oct 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 358

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & LeGuin & Trimble &
                   Ace Doubles (2 msgs) & Star Trek Stories &
                   Post Holocaust Stories (3 msgs) &
                   Wolfman Stories (2 msgs) &
                   Speciality Book Source

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 86 13:35 EDT
From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
To: mtgzy!ecl@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re:  RACE AGAINST TIME

The copyright on this (1973) indicates that this book is a
re-release.  It hasn't been around in the bookstores between the
first release and this one.  I have learned the hard way not to buy
this author's re-released obscure books without getting a chance to
read them first.  I thought that this was one of his worst efforts.
Although he has written other turkeys, he is clearly capable of
better.  Piers is one of my favorite authors, and I am sure you
could find titles you could recommend among his recent work.

I think the analysis of this book as racist is flawed.  Certainly,
if you prefer simplistic political analyses you should avoid other
books where he grinds political axes, such as his Bio of a Space
Tyrant series, which is much better written but could be extremely
offensive.  I interpreted the message of RACE AGAINST TIME as being
"diversity is necessary to human vitality", not "racial purity is
necessary to species vitality."

While overreaction to racism real and imagined is currently in
vogue, an examination of other clues in the book supports my
position.  The society in which the protagonists find themselves has
an extreme emphasis on conformity.  People who don't have a skin
color which is "average enough" buy cosmetics in order to fit in
better and not look abnormal.  The random citizens they encounter
while running away seem quite xenophobic.  The culture has quite
advanced technology but little tolerance for cultural differences.

The boundaries that the protagonists escape from turn out to be a
sort of protective custody from the surrounding culture.  They are
preserving ancient ways of life as well as isolated genetic strains.
It is plausible that the surrounding has thrown away cultural
diversity.  Does it matter that the old art forms are still in the
(computerized) library if no one is interested in them?  The ancient
enclaves are a logical extension of saving the Snail Darter, an
ecological cause and for a while at least, politically correct.

Is this a reasonable extrapolation of current trends?  If the solar
system continues to be shrunk by communication and transportation
technology, perhaps solar parochialism will become widespread.
Unless we can colonize other solar systems, re-enacting significant
cultural barriers, or encounter alien species, with permanently
different points of view, cosmopolitan cultural convergence is
plausible.  Biological homogeneity might follow, but it is a
consequence, not a cause.

Applying Mendelian genetics to human societies is simplistic at
best, but as a metaphor for conformity it seems well chosen for the
evident target age group.  Junior High School biology spent some
time discussing inbreeding, pure strains and hybrid vigor, with
respect to rats, fruit flies and plants.

Dangerous thoughts?  Probably.  I think that people should be
exposed to dangerous thoughts.  Some of their seductiveness comes
from novelty.  In a weakened form, such presentation is more like a
vaccine.

Spencer <JSL@MIT-Multics.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 14:58:46 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

> any body out there a Piers Anthony fan??

Yes with the caveat that I don't like some of his stuff. The stuff I
do like is:

1)  Bio of a Space Tyrant series - where's the last part???
2)  Blue Adept series

and some of his standalone novels.

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East  Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 03:06:51 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>> any body out there a Piers Anthony fan??
>Yes with the caveat that I don't like some of his stuff. The stuff
>I do like is:
>
>1) Bio of a Space Tyrant series - where's the last part???
>2) Blue Adept series
>
>and some of his standalone novels.

The annoying thing about Piers Anthony is that he can occasionally
have a really good imagination. The basic plots for Xanth, the
Phaze/Proton books, the Bio of a Space Tyrant, and the Incarnations
of Immortality are are great stuff. In the hands of even a
semi-competent writer, they might turn out to be great series'. Upon
reading the first book of each series, I thought, "Boy, this is
great. I can't wait for the second book." When I read the second
book, I usually thought "Hmmm, I wonder when the third book will
come out". After the third book I would occasionally wonder about
the fourth book, and might read it if it happened to fall into my
lap when I had some time to spare.  Why this decline in interest?
The ideas were still there, but....  Let's face it folks, Piers
Anthony is a lousy writer. The man just cannot write. His
descriptions, his dialogue, his narrative flow (I'm not a literary
critic, SORRY), his etc., all sound like they were written by high
school students (or maybe by a computer, which could explain his
prodigious output). In the rush to put all his ideas on paper and
write four books a year or whatever, something had to go, and what
went was any attempt at quality on his part.  But is he content to
realize that he can't write for his life, and go on spewing out
books with great ideas and lousy writing?  No, he has to write those
sickening 30 page Author's Comments in the back of each book,
telling us all how many good writers all suffer from "writer's
block", but he just regards that as unprofessional, and never has
that problem (funny he never noticed the obvious reason).  Plus he
rambles on about how great he is, and how much mail he got from his
legions of fans, and what cutesy title he has thought up for the
next Xanth book, and so on ad infinitum/nauseum. Gaaaaah. It gets
really sickening after a while. I used to like his books, but then I
sat back and realized just how bad they were, and I vowed "never
again!". And if I never found out how Hope Hubris came to rule the
universe, that's just the way it will have to be. To recap: Piers
Anthony is a bad writer. Piers Anthony is to science-fiction/fantasy
writing as Kate Bush is to pop music. Thank you.

Adam Barr
Princeton University
BITNET: 6080626@PUCC
UUCP:...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6080626

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 86 01:38:17 GMT
From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: ansible

From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA>
>The ansible appears in several of LeGuin's novels.  I remember it
>in "Rocannon's World", "The Word for World is Forest" and "Left
>Hand of Darkness", and no doubt it appears elsewhere in her work.

In order of when the novels were written, it appears first in
Rocannon's World, which takes place quite a bit after The
Dispossessed.

>Although the Hainish novels form a more or less consistent
>universe, I have the strong feeling that there are contradictions.
>In "The Dispossessed" earth is a ruined world, but I have the
>strong memory that it is OK in another novel.  Is anyone's memory
>better than mine?

Towards the end of The Dispossessed there is a scene with Shevek and
the Terran Ambassador.  She makes it quite clear that Terrans only
appear among species who travel among the stars because the Hainish
rescued them from what they had done to their world.  (I believe
there is a statement almost as clear in The Word for World is
Forest.)  This had happened quite recently at the time of The
Dispossessed; by the time of Rocannon's World, the recovery is more
complete, and the Earth appears more normal, at least in the small
glimpse shown in that story.  (Of course, since the short story on
which Rocannon's World is based was LeGuin's first published story,
it is also possible she didn't mention that part of Terran history
in that novel simply because she hadn't invented it yet....)

John Quarterman
UUCP:{gatech,harvard,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU
                         jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 17:37:13 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Upcoming from Donning/Starblaze

> ON THE GOOD SHIP ENTERPRISE by Bjo Trimble.  An uncensored,
> unauthorized Star Trek Memoir by the mother hen of Star Trek
> Fandom. Trade Paper.

Isn't this a reprint?  Seems to me I bought a copy several years
ago.  It was also not terribly interesting.  Or is this some kind of
a revision?

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 00:58:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: 'Ace' books

>I was sorting through a box or three of old SF books I picked up at
>a fayre and found 6 strange double sided "Two in One" books
>published by Ace.  They are in a back-to-back format, ie. one is
>logical upsidedown to the other, and they both work inwards (!).
>
>I recognise about 8 of the titles from various anthologies and
>novella compilations.  Was this the origin of the novella, or just
>one publishers format?

This was the common format of Ace books during the 1950's and early
1960's.  It was not restricted to the SF line; westerns and
mysteries also appeared in this format.

Many of those 'novellas' had originally appeared in the old pulp
magazines as 'lead novels'.  Some of _those_ pre-date Ace by some
ten years, but I am not sure that even they are the 'origin' of that
length story.

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 11:44:47 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Ace Doubles

   By today's inflated standards, many of the stories that were
originally half of an Ace Double would qualify as novels rather than
novellas; the early doubles had fairly dense type (400-500
words/page) and were fairly thick (each half often 144 or 160 pages
-> 62-80K words---novellas are cut off around 40K for both Hugo and
Nebula awards, while 60K was considered a reasonable SF book in the
50's and 60's). In fact, many halves of early Ace Doubles were
subsequently published as books, e.g. one of the earlier Retief
collections, several Brunner novels (although some were cut to fit
into a standard double and have been republished uncut---a move that
Brunner, who normally hates being cut, is ambivalent about in view
of his improvement as a writer since those books).

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 86 01:31:39 GMT
From: navajo!bothner@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Kirk/Spock love stories

At Westercon I picked up a flyer about Star Trek fanzines in
general, and Kirk/Spock 'zines in particular. The flyer lists eight
publishers of K/S, as well as addresses for other 'zines, and a
justification for the premise of love/sex/romance between Kirk and
Spock. Out of curiosity, I also picked up one of the fanzines (Naked
Times #2). It was moderately expensive; on the other hand you get
165 big pages (in this case) of stories, artwork and poetry. I can't
say too much about the quality: they seemed reasonably well put
together, and the quality of the fiction & artwork (what little I
have read) doesn't seem to be much worse or better than more
standard sf fanzines - i.e. probably highly variable. It seems most
of the people involved in K/S fandom are straight women.  To
inquire, I suggest a SASE (with age statement) to: Naked Times, c/o
Pon Farr Press, P.O. Box 1323, Poway CA 92064.  If that doesn't
produce results, I can send a copy of my flyer.

Per Bothner
bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu
...!decwrl!glacier!navajo!bothner
Computer Science Dept.
Stanford University
Stanford CA 94305

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 18:54:32 GMT
From: mmintl!warrenm@caip.rutgers.edu (Warren McAllister)
Subject: Re: Brin

I bought a paperback copy of 'The Postman' by David Brin last
weekend.

I am quite impressed so far, not being a fan of Brin so far (I hated
Startide Rising :-) )

But on the other hand, I generally like just about anything that's
'Post-Holocaust' - can anyone recommend their favourites in this
category ?

Warren McAllister

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 86 08:10:31 GMT
From: well!mandel@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas F. Mandel)
Subject: Re: Brin

warrenm@mmintl.UUCP (Warren McAllister) writes:
>But on the other hand, I generally like just about anything that's
>'Post-Holocaust' - can anyone recommend their favourites in this
>category ?

I realize it has been mentioned many times, but Walter Miller's _A
Cantible for Leibowitz_ remains, in my view, the definitive
post-holocaust allegorical novel.

Tom Mandel
ARPA:  mandel@sri-kl.arpa
UUCP:  {ptsfa,hplabs,lll-crg,hoptoad,apple}!well!mandel

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 22:43:54 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels/Stories (was Re: Brin)

Walter Miller, _A Canticle for Leibowitz_, published in the 50s, is
the first one that comes to my mind.

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, _False Dawn_: this is hardly my favorite; in
fact it seemed so gloomy that I stopped reading it.  But it is well
written.

Several of John Wyndham's novels, esp. _Day of the Triffids_, are
post-holocaust stories; the holocausts are not generally nuclear
wars.  (But in _Rebirth_, it is.)

Kim Stanley Robinson, _The Wild Shore_, is good.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 03:56:22 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Wolfman story request

>Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably
>anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman
>story?

I am not sure if you are asking about the werewolf Laurence Talbot
from the Universal series (he is generally the only werewolf
referred to as "the wolfman") or about werewolves in general.
Talbot was an original creation for the series.  It is not based on
a pre-existing story.  In fact, there are very few werewolves in
general in popular literature.  There were several vampire stories
and novels before the 20th century.  There was only one classic
werewolf novel and that was written in 1933, 20 years after the
first werewolf film (at least the first I know of).  That novel,
incidentally, was THE WEREWOLF OF PARIS by Guy Endore.  It is fairly
good, and was the basis for the film THE CURSE OF THE WEREWOLF
though the film was not very faithful to the book.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 15:20:58 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Wolfman story request

>Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably
>anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman
>story?

How about Sigm,... Siegm,.. S. Freud's "The Wolf Man", a study of
one of his patients who, of course, thought he was one?

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 13:45:50 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@caip.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Speciality Book Source

A source for interesting books (including the Blake's 7 program
guide) is:

Bundles From Britain
Box 34112
Chicago, IL 60634

Their current catalog says that they have material on "The
Avengers", "Secret Agent," "The Prisoner" "The Professionals", "The
Invaders", "Thunder Birds", "Dempsey and Makepeace," as well as
British publications on "Doctor Who," "Blake's 7" and 007.

They say to sent "your want lists and a SASE".  Their "regular"
catalog lists mostly DW, B7, UNCLE and 007 material.

I've ordered from them without any problem.

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 86 0900-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #359
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 359

Today's Topics:

         Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Brin & Chalker & Clancy &
                 Eddings & Zahn & Post Holocost Stories &
                 Theme Request & Forwarded Queries from GEnie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 86 15:13:12 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide...question

I need some information on getting permision from Douglas Adams.
What I am doning (I hope) is a very short video, two minute to five
minutes, based on the concepts in -Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy__.  I don't plan to use any of the charaters in the video nor
do I imply that they are there.  All I am using is some of Mr.
Adams' ideas for the bases of the video.

I know I need a release from Mr. Adams and (possibly) his publisher,
but I don't know how to go about it.  If any one has any information
please mail it to me (I don't think the net. wants it).  Thanks in
advance.

jody
ps: I don't plan to make any money on this project, but I would like
to show it to the public without fear of being sued.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 18:01:09 GMT
From: uwmacc!demillo@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide...question

jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) writes:
>I know I need a release from Mr. Adams and (possibly) his
>publisher, but I don't know how to go about it.  If any one has any
>information please mail it to me (I don't think the net. wants it).
>Thanks in advance.

Douglas Adams can be reached on "The Source," a commercial computer
network. I am afraid I do not know his Source address, but
presumably you can ask someone once you are on the net.

Amusing note: from what I understand, it takes a lot of convincing
on Adams' part to prove to other Source Denzins that he really *is*
THE Douglas Adams. ("Honestly, I am me!"..."Sure you are, sure you
are...") Apparently, he finally gave up trying...if someone believes
him, great...otherwise...  who cares?

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 21:22:01 GMT
From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Brin

warrenm@mmintl.UUCP (Warren McAllister) writes:
>I bought a paperback copy of 'The Postman' by David Brin
>last weekend.
>
>I amm quite impressed so far, not being a fan of Brin
>so far (I hated Startide Rising :-) )

 Yea...I have a problem with Brin myself. I bought both Startide
Rising and Sundiver. (I got them at a used bookstore, so no loss...)
I was very disappointed. Both novels had, what I thought, was an
excellent basis for a story...I was especially interested in
Sundiver, since I was planning on writing a story based on that very
idea -- imagine my surprise! ;-)

Everything else, however, was a complete disappointment. Brin writes
for all the world like a high school student. (I even ran a section
of his text through one of these "star analysis" algorithms to
determine it's reading level...it came out between 9th and 10th
grade skill level.) The other thing that bothered me is that Brin
seemed to have only the most superficial knowledge of: politics,
inter-personal relationships, science, environmental issues, etc. He
seemed *extremely* sexist, and over-simplified world politics to the
point where it was almost comical.

...I dunno, even at $0.50/book, maybe I did get jipped...

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 86 01:43:43 GMT
From: sherman@f.word.cs.cmu.edu (Andrew Sherman)
Subject: Children of Flux and Anchor

   Children of Flux and Anchor, book five of the Soul Rider Trilogy
:-) by Jack Chalker has just come out.  It takes place about 40
years after the great flux war.  Not a really great read but if you
liked the rest of the series it is probably worth picking up.  If
you haven't read the series yet, give it a try.

sherman@f.word.cs.cmu.edu
uw-beaver!f.word.cs.cmu.edu!sherman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 15:23 EDT
From: Robert D. Houk <Houk@RIVERSIDE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: "Science fiction"

From: CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
>> [Tom Clancy] was clearly using the term in a new and unfortunate
>> sense.  Some people say "that's science fiction" when they mean
>> "that's impossible". . . . he has fallen for the Harper's
>> propaganda that all science fiction is bad, he feels that he has
>> to call his works something else.

I agree that it is unfortunate that some authors are afraid to let
their work be labeled science fiction, and that some people consider
the term to be a pejorative.  It may be that Clancy was using the
term "science fiction" as you suggest, but it was also clear in the
interview that all the military technology described in Red Storm
exists today - that the novel does not extrapolate the technology at
all and the story does not assume any breakthroughs or new
developments.  This is in contrast to the typical science fiction
story, which starts by assuming some new development or discovery
and then examines the implications.

My understanding (based only on Red October and The Hunt thereof, I
haven't picked up his new book yet) would be that it is not Science
Fiction, it is Fiction/Drama/Adventure, etc. (my interpretation of
classes of literature). Maybe the Russian sub's propulsion system is
"science fiction" in that it doesn't exist (does anybody know about
this? Subs are not my forte!), and so his book is technological =
science fiction?

>Since the book was originally reviewed on this board, I thought it
>interesting to find out that the technology described is current.

What I found really interesting to speculate about is, given what he
writes (e.g., top speed for Nuke Subs as 35Kts (? something in that
range), and what is "known" (e.g, 90+Kts - or so I am told is
available in unclassified sources if you know where to look), to
extrapolate the other technologies. Now maybe that is Science
Fiction . . .

Robert D. Houk
Symbolics

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 00:09:47 GMT
From: msudoc!lawitzke@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Lawitzke)
Subject: Belgariad by David Eddings

I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and would
like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to read it.

The Belgariad consists of five books: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of
Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry, and Enchanter's End
Game. The story is about a boy named Garion. He grew up on a farm
and is about 12 years old when the story begins. As the story
progresses it turns out that is is the sole hope for the survival of
mankind. I can't say anymore without revealing the story, but I
found it to be very compelling reading.

John H. Lawitzke
Division of Engineering Research
364 Engineering Bd.
Michigan State University
E. Lansing, MI, 48824
Office:  (517) 355-3769
Home:    (517) 332-3610
UUCP     ...ihnp4!msudoc!lawitzke

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 14:01:45 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Review of "The Backlash Mission"

     "The Backlash Mision" is the sequal to "The Blackcollar" by
Timothy Zahn.  Like Cobra, these focuses on superhuman warriors.
But instead of using mechanical means, in this universe, chemicals
give the warriors increase reflexs and other things.  The flavor of
the "The Backlash Mision" is much the same as "The Blackcollar".
Lots of complex plots, fast action, and generaly a "good excape from
daily life" story.  This is not a great book in terms of hidden
meanings, or a message.  But it is great fun.  The story moves along
quickly.  If you liked "The Blackcollar" you'll enjoy this.
     One side comment.  The tittle page reads "Blackcollar: "The
Backlash Mission".  Zahn may be planing to put one of these out
every six months or so.

***slight spoiler, summary of what's on the back of the book***

     Backlash, a secret drug, turned ordinay soldiers into
Blackcollars.  But the drug has been used up, and a commando team
heads to Earth to try and find the formula.  One possible spot is
the Aegis Mountain, an impregnable fortress that the Ryqril had
never cracked.  Could the commando team survive long enough to get
the formula?

Have a good day.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 86  9:43:49 EDT
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: post-holocostia

I agree that "Canticle for Leibowitz" is the definitive
post-holocaust novel; my favorite is John Crowley's "Engine Summer."
And let's not forget "Davy", by Edgar Pangborn.

Daniel Dern
ddern@ccb.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 14:34 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: Comments on diversity, and a theme request

>>    Should we question the value of the works of Hemmingway or
>> Dylan Thomas because they were alcoholics? Oscar Wilde because he
>> was a homosexual? Lewis Carroll because he was a pedophile? The
>> greatest writers of all time were great because their flawed
>> personalities allowed them to look at the world in a way we
>> "normal" people can't imagine.
>
>I can't let this pass.  What makes you think that being a
>homosexual means you have a flawed personality?  Or that you're not
>normal, since you seem to be implying that "normal" means "correct"
>rather than "what the majority does."  I'll admit that homosexuals
>are in the minority.  So are Jews.  Does that mean we're not
>normal?

     Thank you, Evelyn Leeper!  It needed to be said.

     While I'm on the subject, it seems to me that some of the best
science fiction I've read has been by or about gay people (the works
of John Varley and Elizabeth Lynn come to mind).  Does anyone else
have any suggestions?

Mary Malmros
Center for Academic Computing
Smith College
Northampton, MA   01060
MANAGER@SMITH (BITNET)

------------------------------

From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Date: Saturday, 18 Oct 1986 02:54-EDT
Subject: Forwarded story searchs from GEnie

The following are story searchs from the GE consumer network, have
fun...

[Moderator's Note:  Replies to any of these searches should be sent
to jmturn%ringwld@cca.cca.com and **NOT** to sf-lovers@rutgers]

*****
Category 9,  Topic 3
Message 1         Sat Sep 20, 1986
BIGTONY [TonyD]              at 22:02 EDT

A man visits a scientist and the scientist tells him he's been
communicating with martian scientists. The scientists on both sides
were surprised by the contact since mars knew earth wouldn't have
life for centuries and earth knew mars had died centuries ago. They
finally realized that they were communicating across time as well as
space. The scientist told his visitor that he would be sent to mars
to track down and defeat the first man the scientist had so sent.
This first man had turned out to be an earth criminal and was now a
villian on mars. The scientist also said that only his mind would be
sent and would inhabit the body of a waiting martian. When the
earthman arrives, he discovers he's lying down and wearing a turban.
The martian who's supposed to guide him, shows up after he gets
attacked by a 'bird' and the guide doesn't know about it but the
'turban' unrolls to form a shield against such 'birds'.  As soon as
he gets into town, his quarry challenges him and defeats him, using
the sawlike edge of his sword to slice into the new man's side (the
same way the new guy cut off the head of the 'bird' when it was
embedded in his side), all edged martian weapons are built that way.
Martian customs dictate that once defeated, a person cannot
challenge the one who defeated him. Later, when the wound caused by
the 'bird' is discovered, the new guy is told that the blood loss
changes things: since he should have been allowed to recuperate, the
duel doesn't count. At one point he is sentenced to life
imprisonment in a mine where the powder that makes glowglobes glow
is mined and the globes are put together.  The spigots that dispense
the powder leak powder that burns the hands of the workers. Someone
helps our hero to escape across the desert, each of them using long,
telestoping stilts fastened to their feet to allow them to walk
across the sand without sinking and a long pole so they can get up
on them.  While crossing the desert a giant 'pterodactyl' attacks
them and our hero falls down and swings his pole at it. When it
comes after him it grabs onto the pole like it thinks it's a worm
and pulls him onto his feet by it. Also during his travels, our hero
is brought to a 'swamp' to meet the daughter of the exiled leader of
mars and learns that on mars you eat with your dagger. At the end of
his adventure he learns that that although the current leader and
the exiled one are political enemies, they are friends and they
swapped daughters so that the exiled leader's daughter would be able
to live as a princess.  At one point our hero's skin and hair are
dyed to that he can masquerade as a member of the martian "brown
race' and infiltrate the enemy camp but his disguise was betrayed
and a solution that removes the dyes was thrown on him.

******
Category 9,  Topic 3
Message 2         Mon Oct 13, 1986
NUMBER6 [phaedrus]           at 12:12 EDT

sounds kinda Bradbury-ish, but I have no idea...

Anyone ever read this one: there is a Man (note: capitol M in Man)
named Kor. He has studied all sorts of mental exercises, etc, and
now deserves the title Man. He is also known as "the Scarlet Sage".
the common people of the planet live like peasants under the rule of
some alien race. The aliens have a machine called an extrapolator
which predicts the future, but phrases itself cryptically: "the
scarlet sage will die undead, pots and pans depart instead". Kor (of
course) must defeat the aliens, and does so by astral projection
somewhere. I don't know. I was about 12 when i read it, an would
REALLY like to find it again. Any clues?  Oh, and Kor had a
girlfriend: the Lady Soma (an allusion to sleep?)

******
Category 9,  Topic 3
Message 3         Fri Oct 17, 1986
C.STERRITT                   at 20:11 EDT

Sorry to bring a (possibly) non-SF story into the search, but I'd
LOVE to find and *FINISH READING* the following story, which I
discussed part of in a short story class I had to drop:

There is a young woman who writes short stories.  Her father,
getting on in years, wants her to write him a story, and so she
writes one about a young man who is addicted to heroin-- but has
lots of friends who are addicts, and writes a magazine (called Oh!
Golden Horse!) about/for heroin addicts.  The young man in the story
has a mother who loves him so much that she gets into heroin
herself.  Plot twist -- there's this girl, see, who is against
heroin.  She meets the young man, reforms him to her cause from
heroin (she has a magazine too, but I can't remember its title or
purpose -- probably anti-drug.)  But the new young couple can't
abide the mother not being able to kick the habit, and so he (guess)
moves out on his mother, and (as I recall) the storywithinastory
ends.  Then, the daughter (storyteller) and father discuss the
story, and he asks her to rewrite it, and she does... but I never
got to read that!!!!  AArrgghh!!!

PLEASE help a young man (me!), hopelessly addicted to
storieswithinstories (unsuspecting youth, he callowly read Lem &
Wolfe & others, and was thoroughly addicted before he knew it) to
find this gem.  I have no idea of the author (except I'm pretty sure
she was a woman.)

thanks in advance,
even if you don't know,
chris s.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 86 0914-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #360
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 360

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - Weapons Policies (7 msgs) &
                    A Time Travel Query & Tucker Awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 14:01:12 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_acss@caip.rutgers.edu (C Sue Shambaugh)
Subject: Re: Weapons policies

   I carried a mop around with me during most of the day of the
Masquerade at ConFederation (a costume prop, and a potentially
dangerous one at that) and no one even blinked.  Certainly I could
have left it in the car trunk after our rehearsal, but I didn't want
to bother!

   As far as the polling goes: I like weapons, I like wearing them,
I own more than a few, and I even know how to use a couple of them.
However, I recognise that they are *NOT* toys, and I can understand
the ConComs' regulating the behaviour of people who may not be
stable or prudent.  Or who may be drunk or stoned (at Cons, who
knows).

   I once had a person (at a Halloween party, not a Con) grab one of
my knives OUT OF ITS PEACE-BONDING and make "great horsy gaping
grins" at me.  I twisted his arm till he let go of it.  Some people
need this kind of treatment before they get the message: WEAPONS #
TOYS!

Sue S.
JHUniversity

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 86 08:37 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Weapons Policy

   The first absolutely-no-weapons con I went to was Aquacon in '73
in Ontario CA. I was wearing wooden-soled clogs and a hat, with a
rather obvious "jeweled" hatpin.. I considered these weapons as far
as riding the bus was concerned, but I was never asked to remove
either. Hatpins are such a sterotypically feminine weapon, too.
   It was a pleasant con. Mundanes were not upset. I really detest
hallway blaster fights.
   In some ways con weapon policy has stepped in to take the place
of common sense some of us can leave behind in the excitement of a
con. I could be quite happy attending a con where the rule was: 1)
peacebonding (noticably fixing your weapon to its holder, thereby
rendering it temporarily unusable), and 2) leave your
weapons/'weaponlike objects' behind if you venture into Mundania,
for YOUR OWN protection.
   As far as a heavy staff is concerned, I would have pulled it if
it seemed that the bearer thereof was acting in an unsafe manner. I
feel the same way towards umbrellas. Unfortunately, I cannot take
umbrellas away from businesstypes having no concern for those
walking/standing behind them.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 86 13:04 EST
From: JESUP RANDELL                 <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Weapons policies...

Re: peace-bonding

   Peace bonding is tying a weapon into scabbard, holster, etc, so
that it CANNOT be drawn OR pulled out without being untied.

Re: seperate hotel sections

   If you possibly can when setting up a con, get the hotel to block
a wing for you.  It makes it easier to allow weapons (few/no
mundanes), and also allows for more fun because you don't really
have to worry about disturbing the mundanes.

Re: SWAT teams
   Like I said, tell the local police BEFORE the con what's going on.

Re: boskone
   The only really good thing about it are the parties.

Re: SCA
   The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without
peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent
stakes....

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 01:08:58 GMT
From: jacob@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Jacob Butcher)
Subject: Re: Weapons policies...

JESUP@ge-crd.arpa writes:
>Re: SCA
>   The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without
>peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent
>stakes....

It is strictly against SCA policy to practice with live steel.
Eating and carving tent stakes are what knives and axes are for;
what's wrong with using them that way? And it seems silly not to
display a weapon simply because it is usable.

I realize that policy and practice are distinct; nonetheless,
fighting (mock or otherwise) with real weapons in the SCA can and
will result in expulsion. Personally, I'd just require the fight to
progress until blood is drawn...

jacob butcher

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 22:23:28 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions

Rich Kolker, the WACO Guru (WACO is the Washington Area Convention
Organization - not some obscure insult) started this discussion with
a fairly good view of Weapons Policies at Cons.

I find myself in aggreement with what he said.  However I would like
to throw in an interesting variation on Weapons Policies that I was
told of reciently.

The policy is that of CAPRICON held in the Chicago area during
February (I think, it conflicts with WISCON).  TTheir Weapons policy
can be said something like this;

    CAPRICON has no Weapons Policy

    On the other hand the Municipality of Chicago does.  If you give
    us any grief, we will inform the police and let them decide if
    it is a weapon.

    For your enlightnement the following things are true of the laws
    of Chicago;

       1.  No projectile weapons.

       2.  No realistic models or replicas of projectile or other
           weapons of sufficient versimilitude that the typical
           person could be convinced that said model or replica
           is effecive.

       3.  No edged weapons except under the following constraints
           a.  Blade length of 4 inches or less
           b.  Blades must me single edged
           c.  No spring loaded knives.

     For exact definitions consult the relavant portions of the
     Chicago Criminal Code.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 22:43:34 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Weapons Policies (def. of bond, defense of Boskone vs.
Subject: O'Brien)

> I think that, using this definition, the Boskone Com were
> well-founded in banning Mike O'Brien's wizard staff. ...  It was a
> beautiful piece of work, but I must agree with the Con-Com that
> the staff could be USED as a weapon; not necessarily by Mike, but
> maybe by some unscrupulous fen or mundane who happened to walk by
> and decide to run off with the staff.

The Boskone Concom is clearly rather sensitive about staffs as a
year or so ago, I walked into the Staff room and found several
Con-ops people and hotel security clustered around a woman on
crutches. From what I overheard while I was there, she had been hit
on the knee by someone showing off their staff fighting technique. I
was not at the last Boskone but it appears that Boskones are getting
rather rowdy.

Danny Low
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 86 04:05:28 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Weapons policies...

>>      The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel,
>>without peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve
>>tent stakes....
>
>It is strictly against SCA policy to practice with live steel.

In Markland, there are steel *recreation* fighting forms.  The
weapons are *very* blunt, and there is rigorous qualification
involved.  Fights are rigorously choreographed.  "Fratricidal"
fighting involves padded weapons and is more akin to the SCAdian
style.  Perhaps this is the source of the confusion.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Fri 24 Oct 86 09:54:16-MDT
From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
Subject: A Time Travel Query

From time to time over the past years I have submitted a number of
postings related to aspects of time travel which seem to have
stimulated enjoyable discussions. Here is another one I hope will be
as successful:

[This one was inspired by the fantasy soap "Dark Shadows", which my
local PBS station has been carrying for a number of months. One of
the plot elements is that a person from the present is transported
(essentially by magic) to 1795, and interacts with the ancestors of
the characters in the present-day portion of the story. To get into
more detail would involve spoilers and, besides, my query was merely
stimulated by watching this, and does not involve "Dark Shadows"
itself at all.]

So, the query: if a person from the present is transported to a past
time, back to a pre-electrical, pre-Industrial Revolution society,
by some external means not under their control (that is, they are
whisked off by surprise, without being able to prepare for it, and
cannot move back and forth through time as they wish -- they are
just grabbed from here&now and plunked smack dab into then&there),
how could that person use their knowledge to support themselves,
make themselves rich and/or famous, change or control the society
they find themselves in, or otherwise be successful by some
definiton?

When this situation occurs in books or other media SF, as I recall,
the authors seem to cheat. They give the main characters special
knowledge, gimmicks, or talents -- Twain's "Connecticut Yankee" just
happens to be carrying an almanac which gives him details about a
solar eclipse that he uses to his advantage, and he is a skilled
mechanic/millwright who singlehandedly can create the Industrial
Revolution in Arthurian Britain.

In one of the first-season Dr.Who episodes, the time travellers are
dropped into Aztec culture, and it just so happens that one of the
travelling companions is an expert in Aztec culture, having done
extensive school work on the subject, and has the chronology and
details of that culture all memorized, while the other [who was
supposed to be an ordinary British male secondary-school teacher]
turns out to be a skilled fighter and swordsman who can beat Aztec
warriors (who have been trained for a lifetime) with their own
weaponry!

I recall a story about a State Policeman who was flung somehow into
a primitive Norse society, and he happened to have an old Norwegian
grandmother who had taught him language and folk tales and he fit
right in after a day or two. He had the physical strength and
fighting skills necessary to stay alive and to impress the natives
enough so they would accept him. All of these examples seem to be
contrived to permit the protagonists to succeed.

But what about the ordinary man or woman of today, not equipped with
a library or a photographic memory, skilled in some contemporary
profession that is based in and relies upon the entire
infrastructure of the 20th century, picked up with nothing but what
is on his/her person and dumped into some pre-1800 society? Let's be
generous and assume they end up somewhere where the language is
close enough to what they speak so they can quickly learn to
communicate effectively. I still can't think of much the ordinary
computer programmer, salesman, academic, or bureaucrat could be
capable of doing in that environment that would permit them to gain
fame, fortune, or power. As for myself, I think I could invent
gunpowder if I was plopped into a society where that was unknown --
let's see, sulfur can be found around volcanoes, charcoal is fairly
simple to produce from wood, and potassium nitrate can be found in
dungheaps [but what do you do with a dungheap to get potassium
nitrate out of it? looks like a fairly unpleasant learning curve
there... :-)]. So I can make black powder if I happen to end up in a
forest around a volcano where people have barnyards.  Sounds like a
awfully specific set of requirements... And, if I don't blow my
hands off grinding and corning the black powder, I still don't know
enough metallurgy to make steel for firearms to use it. So I can
make firecrackers or rockets, hopefully. Doesn't sound like the
automatic route to world domination there...

You could maybe set yourself up as a seer or Nostradamus-type
character.  Write down all the Henny Youngman one-liners you can
remember and become the origin of them. Try and invent electricity
by rubbing cats the wrong way or doing the kite-and-key bit. And so
forth. None of these sound like a way to become rich and powerful;
if you're lucky, you may stay alive.  All in all, it seems to me
that you'll end up a starving day laborer if you keep your mouth
shut, or an inmate of a madhouse if you don't.

Anyone out there have some thoughts on this subject? What would you,
yourself, do if you suddenly woke up 2-300 years ago and figured
that's where you'd be the rest of your life? (I mean aside from
wishing you had kept that last dental appointment... :-)

Speculatively,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
(on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA )

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 6:34:41 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Last chance to vote - TUCKER Awards final ballot - 1 Nov
Subject: deadline

                     T U C K E R   A W A R D S

A new award was instituted last year to recognize the activities of
that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention
partiers.  Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the
official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction
Convention Partying is the "Tucker".

The first two years awards are sponsored and administered by the St.
Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be
administered by a related group.  The awards will be nominated and
voted on by members of Czarkon 4 (St.  Louis' "adult relaxicon"),
and the rest of SF party fandom via St. Louis in '88 bid parties and
any fanzines or SF club newsletters willing to reprint the
nomination form and/or this final ballot.

There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or
dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan.  Couples or groups are eligible as a
single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is
eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the
presenting convention if they win.  Winners are not eligible for
re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible
again the following year.  The 1985 winners were:

  Special Grand Master Award:  Wilson "Bob" Tucker
  SF Professional:             Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle
  SF Artist:                   David Lee Anderson
  SF Fan:                      Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt

The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice
bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year,
award name, and the winner's name.  An instant tradition was begun
in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home
from the convention empty (many self- sacrificing volunteers helped
empty the awards).

To vote for the 1986 Tucker Awards, write a number from 1 to 4 in
the spaces by the names in each category, 1 being your first
choice and 4 being your last choice in EACH CATEGORY.  After marking
your ballot, detach it along the dotted line and mail it to TUCKER
AWARDS, c/o St. Louis in '88, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188.
Photocopied, mimeographed, hand-printed, or typed equivalents of
this ballot are acceptable.

[*Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to
"zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA"*]

                 VOTING DEADLINE IS 1 NOVEMBER 1986

                      1986 TUCKER AWARD BALLOT

PRO TUCKER:     ____ Ed Bryant
                ____ Glen Cook
                ____ Andrew J. Offutt
                ____ Dick Spelman

ARTIST TUCKER:  ____ Keith Berdak
                ____ Joan Hanke-Woods
                ____ Dell Harris
                ____ Larry Tucker

FAN TUCKER:     ____ Chris Powell
                ____ David Rogan
                ____ Dick Spelman
                ____ Nancy Tucker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 86 0920-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #361
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 361

Today's Topics:

                 Music - More SF in Music (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 Oct 86 22:42:08-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Some stuff missing from the compilation
To: Galloway@B.ISI.EDU

Allan Sherman
  On "My Son The Nut":
    Automation
      To "Fascination" -- about how his office is being automated
    Eight Foot Two, Solid Blue
      "Six transistors in each shoe/Has anybody seen my gal?"
  On "For Swingin' Livers Only":
    Shine On, Harvey Bloom
      "Up in the sky/You've been up in orbit since/
      January, February, June and July...."

Bobby "Boris" Pickett
  "Monster Mash"
      The entire album contains SF/horror material along the lines
      of the title cut.

John Zacherle
  "Dinner With Drac"
      A rip-off of "Monster Mash"

The Clovers
  "Love Potion #9"

David Seville
  "Witch Doctor"
    Who could forget that magic cry of "Ooo eee, ooo ah ah, ting tang
    Walla-Walla bing-bang?"

Sheb Wooley
  "The Purple People Eater"

Nervus Norvus
  "The Fang"

The Ran-Dells
  "Martian Hop"

Soundtrack from "Rocky Horror Picture Show"
  "Time Warp" (and most of the rest of the soundtrack)

Rose and the Arrangement (aka Possum)
  "The Cockroach That Ate Cincinnati"

Dr. West's Medicine Show & Junk Band
  "The Eggplant That Ate Chicago"


There are also many comedy records done with a science-fiction
theme.  If anyone is interested, I'll send out my compilation from
the 300+ comedy records I have.

Lynn

P.S.--There's a C&W version of Heinlein's poem "Cool Green Hills of
Earth" that was done sometime in the late 50's/early 60's, but I
don't know who did it.  It was (and may very well still be ) used as
the closing theme song for a C&W radio program on WVHC-FM (88.7) on
Long Island that aired Saturday mornings around 11am or noon called
"Western Star."

If anyone has info on this song, please send a msg to either me or
to this list.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Oct 1986 15:32:16-PDT
From: lary%ssdevo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: re: Canonical SF music list

A few more entries for the Canonical SF music list:

Billy Joel: "Miami 2017", from "Turnstiles",
   rerecorded for "Songs from the Attic"

Incredible String Band, "I Was a Young Man (back in the 1960's)"
   from (I think) "The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter"

Both of the previous songs are from the point of view of an old man
reminiscing about his past/our future.

The Incredible String Band recorded many songs in the mid-late 60's
with SF/fantasy themes, mostly fantasy; the only other one I can
recall right now is "Swift as the Wind", a fantasy about a child's
imaginary hero-playmate who turns out to be not so imaginary.

And, based on some of the other entries, "Tommy" by The Who ought to
qualify.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 86 19:50:28 PDT
From: Jef Poskanzer <jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa>
To: Galloway@b.isi.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

Not bad.  I can think of only three additions:

1) The Buggles' album _Age_of_Plastic_ is more or less SF-oriented.
For instance, the title song contains the line "They send the
Thought Police to put you under cardiac arrest."  Shades of the
Tick-Tock Man!

2) The Police, "Walking on the Moon".

3) And how could you have missed Neal Young's "After the Gold Rush"?

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 86 00:05:40 GMT
From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Some stuff missing from the compilation

Regarding SF music:

How about Benson, Arizona (the theme from Dark Star)?  Definitely a
CW tang to it.  I remember calling up our local CW station and
requesting it.  They didn't have it.  Sad.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 14 October 1986 08:32:06 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

There's also the Duran Duran tune "Planet Earth", about the last man
on Earth broadcasting to whoever will listen: "Look now, look all
around/There's no sign of life./Voices without a sound/Can you hear
me now?/ This is planet Earth/You're looking at planet Earth."

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1986 08:48:43 CDT
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

>Rush:
>In 2112, the protagonist discovers an ancient guitar and winds up
>battling the dictatorial priesthood.  Red Barchetta on Moving
>Pictures is similar, except the guitar is replaced by a car. See
>also Cygnus X-1 (thought to be a black hole), Rivendell (Tolkien
>reference), The Necromancer. See also The Body Electric and Red
>Sector A from Grace Under Pressure

    Also "By-Tor & The Snow Dog", off _Fly By Night_.

Carlo Samson
U09862%uicvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 86 09:47:32 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List
From: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

Here's an addition to the list:

Spliff (a German group that most have probably never heard of): From
the "Schwarz auf Weiss" album: Sirius (about a deep-sleep trip to
Sirius), and Shuttle (in which the band plans to comandeer a shuttle
and blast off for parts unknown).

Mike Kupfer
ARPA: Kupfer.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!kupfer

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 16:16:25 GMT
From: mink@cfa.harvard.edu (Doug Mink)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

Ed Sanders (a member of the sixties Fugs) put out an album sometime
in the early seventies called "Beer Cans on the Moon," which
contains such gems as a song about a yodeling robot in love with
Dolly Parton as well as some more topical songs.

I have an album called "Dark Carnival," again dating form the early
seventies which sets a number of Ray Bradbury stories from *The
Illustrated Man* to music.

Doug Mink
{ihnp4|seismo}!harvard!cfa!mink
mink@cfa.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 18:21:01 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

To be consistent with the rest of your list:

Richard Strauss:
Also Sprach Zarathustra (English: "Thus Spake Zarathustra")
   The first section, called "Sunrise", was used in 2001, both
   starting and ending.  The entire tone poem was certainly not
   used.

Gyorgi Ligetti:
Atmospheres
   Used in 2001 in the scenes of the moon bus and the excavation
   around TMA-1.

Gyorgi Ligetti (I think):
Lux Aeterna  ("Light Eternal")
   Used in 2001 and 2010 to describe the monolith(s).

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 14:47:26 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>  Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (English: "Thus Spake
>  Zarathustra")
>  Gyorgi Ligetti: Atmospheres
>  Gyorgi Ligetti (I think): Lux Aeterna  ("Light Eternal")

If *this* stuff counts, how about
 Strauss' "Blue Danube" (2001)
 Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Clockwork Orange)
 Most of Walter/Wendy Carlos' stuff (Tron, Clockwork Orange)
 Vangelis (or was his already mentioned?)
 Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, (James?) Horner and the ever popular
        Alexander Courage

Are you sure we ain't getting a little silly, here?

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 19:51:57 GMT
From: hscfvax!south@caip.rutgers.edu (790689@NDSK@SSneddon)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@B.ISI.EDU>
>The Canonical SF Music List
>[...]
>Schilling, Peter:
>Major Tom (Coming Home); perhaps a sequel to Bowie's Space Oddity?

Not "perhaps" - Mr. Schilling said that it was intentionally created
as "a sequel, and homage" to the original.  (This was on MTV Music
News a loooong time ago, when this song was still popular.)

Also, the following entry...

Men at Work:
Helpless Automaton - a robot falling in love with a human, off
"Business as Usual".

G. T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.UUCP
gts@borax.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 17:26:10 GMT
From: leadsv!sas@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

ELO:
> The entire album Time is a science fiction story about a man from
> 1981 who is taken into the 21st century, and all the aspects of
> life there.
>
> A summary of the album:...
> Rain Is Falling - Basically about wet weather, although some
> mention again of our hero missing his lost love, and the 21st
> century people offering him a way back.

   At this point in TIME, it appears that a conspiracy is beginning
to form. Possibbly of some the scientist who are responsible for
bringing our hero into the future and are having regrets. Of course
the buerocrats (sp?)  and leaders don't want this to happen.

> From The End Of The World - Seems to be about how hard it is for
> our hero to reach his distant love, and it's starting to get to
> him.
>
> The Lights Go Down - Not a sf song, more about how he's got to get
> back to his love in 1981. The music isn't spacey, so I suspect
> this is supposed to be a song he wrote while longing for her.
>
> Here Is The News - a humor song on the turbulent world of 2095. A
> few bad puns.

    The news stories mention a breakout from Satelite 2, and our
hero crying out that he wants to go home. Perhaps he was imprisoned
there (maybe in TICKET TO THE MOON) so as not to cause any more
problems, and the conspiracy has broken him out. I've felt it might
also imply that our hero is not the first person brought into the
future.

> 21St Century Man - song about how a man from 1981, for all his
> clever adaptions, simply isn't cut out for life in the 21st
> century and has to return and what he has to tell eveyone when he
> gets back.
>
> Hold On Tight (The Coffee Song) - this was more designed for
> commercial release (it was their main release from the album and
> became the theme song for the Coffee Achievers commercials), but
> carries the theme that, in the future world, or even out of it,
> really anything is possible if you keep faith.

   This song has always given me the feeling of a triumphant battle
theme.  As the conspiracy fights to get control of the time portal
and send our hero back, and giving the final message that though
things seemed down before, by holding on to the hope of returning to
1981, they were able to send our hero home. And that any dream is
possible.

   A very good album, with lots of interesting themes.

   And now to another artist who was left off the list:

Gary Newman

   Artist responsible for CARS ('Here in my car') a couple of years
   ago. He had three albums out last I looked. The first albums
   songs where all 1 word titles and I beieve the title was STEEL.

   His second album is ARE FRIENDS ELECTRIC. The whole album is a SF
   theme, about a future society, very utalitarion. I not quite sure
   if its supposed to be a story, or a bunch of little stories.

   I don't remember anything about his third album.

   I read something once about him. He felt that he was more of a SF
   writer than a musician. And music was just the medium he was
   using at the current time. He hoped to write books in the future.

Scott A. Stewart
LMSC - Sunnyvale
ihnp4!rtgvax!leadsv!sas
teklds!cae780!leadsv!sas

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 06:42:26 GMT
From: maps.cs.cmu.edu!yamauchi@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Cannonical SF Music List (Saga)

The Canadian progressive/synth rock band Saga had a series of songs,
spread out over four albums, which together tell a science fiction
story:

>From the Saga album:

Chapter 4: Will It Be You?
Chapter 6: Tired World

>From the Images At Twilight album:

Chapter 1: Images
Chapter 3: It's Time

>From the Silent Knight album:

Chapter 2: Don't Be Late
Chapter 7: Too Much To Lose

>From the Worlds Apart album:

Chapter 5: No Regrets
Chapter 8: No Stranger

If anyone else has heard these songs, I would be interested in
finding out how you interpret them.  Some of the events are clear:
the interceptor battle in "Will It Be You?", the aftermath of a war
in "No Regrets", the rushing toward an alien rendezvous in "Don't Be
Late", and the launching of an attack in "Too Much To Lose."  Some
are less clear, like the preparation for some sort of journey or
conflict in "It's TIme" and the foreshadowing of some sort of
retaliation in "Tired World".  However, I am not sure how "Images"
and "No Stranger" fit into the story, or of whether the characters
remain constant in all of the songs.

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET:    yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:     by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 01:54:11 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

How about DEVO?  The albums "Q: Are we not men? A: We are DEVO" and
"Duty Now For the Future" both are full of songs with SF themes.
Consider the songs "Space Junk" and "Jocko Homo".

"Freedom of Choice" and "New Traditionalists" also have some SFish
material.

Tim Smith
USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim
Compuserve: 72257,3706
Delphi or GEnie: mnementh

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 16:56:44 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

Unfortunately, I missed the first article so I'm not sure what is
meant by 'canonical', but I feel that there are two tracks at least
which deserve to be included in SF orientated music.

The first is '2112', by RUSH, a canadian band which is sadly not as
widely recognized here as it should be. This deals with the
overthrow of the opressive world government by those exiled to space
by them.

The second, also by Rush, is 'RED BARCHETTA'. This is set in a time
where internal combustion engines are outlawed, and is based on the
short story _A_NICE_MORNINGS_DRIVE_ by an author whose name escapes
me.

'2112' is on the album of the same name, and 'RED BARCHETTA' is on
the album 'MOVING PICTURES'. Note that these songs come under the
category of medium- heavy rock music, and are not electronic as may
be expected.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 13:52:44 GMT
From: utai!johnt@caip.rutgers.edu (John Turner)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

   A song that you missed was "Urban Spaceman" by the bonzo dog
band, from "The best of the Bonzos".  Also on the "Gorilla" album
was the song "There's a monster coming" which could also qualify.

John Turner

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 86 0935-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #362
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 362

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 23:28:04 GMT
From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: STAR TREK: So Long Old Folks!

> ST is the ideals.  It is what it stands for.  BUT: Kirk Spock et
> al.  are the media that put forth those ideals.  As in ANY form of
> art that is itself not life, the characters are a bit exaggerated
> so that they may interact more completely (for the audiences
> benefit).
>
> We have Spock: logical We have Bones: etc. (I doubt I need to list
> what makes each
>       character unique :-)
>
> Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could
> possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put
> forth those ideals?  the characters of the original ST (which, i
> admit, grew with time) worked together very well...their
> eccentricities and oddities FORCED them to show the ideals that ST
> stood for, and tried to overcome (like when Kirk wanted to blast
> the Gorn, and Spock kept running off the regulations and talking
> about war etc.)

You've got to be kidding!  Is that why you watch Star Trek, to see
the petty moralizations, etc.?  Gee, I started watching it because
it was usually interesting, sometimes original, sometimes quite
funny.  Do you really think that Kirk and crew are the only
interesting characters that can be thought up?  Boy, are you dull!
Stick to watching the reruns and I'm sure you'll be happy for the
next thousand years.

Until the show proves itself as terrible (which I'd bet on), I'm
going to hope that it's as least as good as the original.  If it's
true that it's not going to network TV, maybe they'll be a little
gutsy and target the show for a more limited audience (say, SF and
ST fans?).  Wouldn't that be nice.

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM
rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 86 19:16:00 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) says:
>Star Trek wasn't perfect, because it was on TV, but it did manage
>to break a few taboos: an interracial kiss, a crew of women who
>knew what they were doing, no one smoked cigarettes, etc. They did
>stories about communism, homosexuality, incest (sortof), etc.

     Waitaminute.  I remember most of these, but when did they do
anything about homosexuality or incest?  The former was rumored by a
small clique of fans (the ones who conjectured a love affair between
Kirk and Spock), but it was never specifically addressed.  And when
was incest brought up, even "sort of?"

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 86 22:49:26 GMT
From: crash!adamsd@caip.rutgers.edu (Adams Douglas)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes:
>I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of
>creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the
>last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the
>intelligence of the network planners!

But you forget that ST:TNG is going to be distributed on INDEPENDENT
stations.  Granted, they still have to consider whether or not
anyone will want to buy it but it seems to me they this will give
them much better leeway in putting what they want in the show.

Adams Douglas
JPL/NASA
AT&T:818-354-3076
ARPA:crash!adamsd@nosc.arpa
UUCP:{akgua | hplabs!hp-sdd | sdcsvax | noscvax}!crash!adamsd

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 18:01:52 GMT
From: fai!ronc@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK: The Next Generation

dragheb@isis.UUCP (Darius "OPRDRT" Ragheb) writes:
>Now, my point is, do you honestly think that a new crew could
>possibly interact together in such a way as to effectively put forth
>those ideals?

Sure, why not?  The ideals and characters both were created by one
person that had, at least for the first two seasons, creative
control.  This same person, (Gene Roddenberry) will also have
creative control of the new generation.

Now, it could be that Gene wants to put foreward new ideals, talk
about different things, go where no man has gone before.  It may not
be a carbon copy of the old Star Trek (I hope not!!) but I bet it'll
be interesting.

>I just do not think that the TV networks are any longer capable of
>creating anything worthwhile: given what has been shown over the
>last few years, it is no wonder I am skeptical about the
>intelligence of the network planners!

I suggest that you check out the substance of the deal between
Paramount and Roddenberry before you pass judgement.  The TV
networks are *not involved*!  The series will be sold to the same
*independant* stations that are presently showing the old series!

As a side issue, I think the quality of TV has actually improved
over the last 5 years.  Not, of course, in the area of science
fiction, but that has always been poorly represented on the boob
toob.  (Remember Lost In Space?)

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 21:40:57 GMT
From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) says:
>>Star Trek wasn't perfect, because it was on TV, but it did manage
>>to break a few taboos: an interracial kiss, a crew of women who
>>knew what they were doing, no one smoked cigarettes, etc. They did
>>stories about communism, homosexuality, incest (sortof), etc.
>
>     Waitaminute.  I remember most of these, but when did they do
>anything about homosexuality or incest?  The former was rumored by
>a small clique of fans (the ones who conjectured a love affair
>between Kirk and Spock), but it was never specifically addressed.
>And when was incest brought up, even "sort of?"

In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and
Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship,
and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes
he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same
sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok."

The incest ("sort of") is directed at "Miri." Although the censors
never let it come out that way, that was to be the origin of the
disease. Unfortunately, the NBC head-guys put the squeals on that
one Real Quick. That was way too hot a topic for 1967 television.
The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the tube was that
it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC never caught
on...

Both those pieces of information came from interviews between the
various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine."

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
usenet: {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,topaz,decvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo
ARPA:   demillo@unix.macc.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 86 20:58:11 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Metamorphasis (was Taboos)

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and
>Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship,
>and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes
>he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same
>sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok."
>
>Both those pieces of information came from interviews between the
>various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine."

If the author of the episode says this about what he intended when
he wrote it, then we can't deny his intentions. However, this is
never the impression I got from this episode. Assume for the moment
that we don't have the author's statement about this.

In this episode, Kirk and Spock "demonstrate" to Z that the
companion was female, and that she loved him. Z initially took it to
be distasteful that an alien creature could be in love with him.
Later he accepted this, especially after the companion became human
by merging with another woman present in the episode.

If anything, the moral seems to be that even if something (someone)
is different from you, it doesn't mean that loving them is wrong.
This could easily be construed to mean racial or religious
differences between people don't matter, and/or that new or
different things should not be rejected just because of those
differences.

If you took this a step further, you might believe the author is
implying that different types of "love" are ok, too. But the fact
that it was a big deal to them that the companion was female and
given this they also decided that she was in love with Z seems to
indicate that gay love was not at all a consideration. (They didn't
think about whether the companion was in love with Z until they
realized she was female.)

Clearly my interpretation, which I think is the immediate
interpretation, differs with what we have been told is the author's
intention. If others agree that this interpretation is the one most
easily arrived at, then either this was not the author's intention
after all, or the author did not make his/her intention at all clear
(and in fact hid the gay love part behind a heterosexual love
front).

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 20:04:44 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: "Broadcast Standards" vs. CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER

belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rick Kolker) writes:
>> For example, Harlan Ellison's original "City on the Edge..." was
>> a great story, but not great Star Trek.  The final version, after
>> rewrite was both.
>What they did to "City on the Edge of Forever" was vandalise it in
>order to make it "wholesome, family entertainment," suitable for
>prime time broadcast by a major network during the 1960's.

Don't hold it against Star Trek -- NBC's Department fo Broadcast
Standards (a.k.a. the Censorship Board) would have axed COTEOF so
hard it'd have splashed gore on ST:TWOK.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
PHONE: +1 216 974 9210
HOME:(216) 781-6201 24 hrs.
6615 Center St. Apt. A1-105
Mentor, Ohio 44060-4101
ARPA:  ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net
UUCP: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!tdi2!brandon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 10:14:41 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trek - transporter use

fluke!witters@caip.rutgers.edu (John Witters) writes ...
>> Yeah, it occurred to me that with a working a transporter, life
>> on Earth must resemble something out of a Niven story...  Until I
>> realized that transporters are probably hideously expensive,
>> complex, and dangerous in the ST universe. . . .
>
>Would anyone care to compile statistics of transporter safety v.s.
>automobile safety in the 20th century? ... I assume that
>transporters would have to be at least as safe as automobiles or
>they wouldn't be used.

The benefits of transporting must be weighed against other means of
doing the same thing, no against (say) cars and jeeps.  I also
assume they are very expensive and dangerous, and while they do not
compare favorably with other means of ground transportation, and so
are not in general use for that, they are presumably cheaper and
much faster than some sort of shuttle (enough so to balance the
possibly greater danger).

JBL

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 10:47:17 EDT
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: STAR TREK and Harlan Ellison

   There's a lot of material of questionable accuracy about THE CITY
ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER going out; here are a few things I'm
reasonably sure of from reading both Ellison's account (after he'd
cooled down) and others.
   First, drugs weren't central to the plot; they were a device
which made the misbehavior which caused the subsequent disasters
more plausible. (Yes, I think McCoy injecting himself with an
overdose of a powerful drug is implausible. Aside from the major
medical advances represented by tricorders, Feinbergers, etc., even
doctors who are careless of their patients are likely to avoid
equipment that represents a danger to \them/, or take precautions in
its handling---when was the last time your dentist/dental-hygienist
was in the room when X-raying your teeth?) Also, my \recollection/
is that it was a random crewman who was the pusher, not Scott.
   Second, Ellison wrote some things in the script that just weren't
doable (given 1967 film technology) within budget, and wrote them
out \himself/ when he was told just how impossible they were (e.g.,
a mile-long valley lined on both sides with 100-foot tall talking
statues became that silly little rock dougnut). He did at least two
substantial rewrites of the script himself.
 "Ellison-being-a-baby"- is an uncalled-for slander; he has more
integrity than 99% of the people in the media businesses, but you
probably have to fight harder to keep your integrity in Hollywood
than a would-be actress has to fight to keep her virginity.
   Ellison is fond of quoting an aphorism he got from Charles
Beaumont: "Hollywood is like climbing a mountain of manure to pick
the one perfect rose on top---and finding when you get there that
you've lost your sense of smell."  His attitude hasn't helped him
get along, but without it he might have been stuck writing pabulum
like just about everyone else in Hollywood in the 60's.
(Roddenberry certainly doesn't bear a grudge over this episode; he
affirmed, without the expletives, Ellison's story of R being asked
to rescue STARLOST after E had given up and walked out, turning them
down, and when asked to recommend some other possible rescuer,
suggesting E, -"who wouldn't have walked out if you hadn't ****ed
him."-)
   Third, I would argue that all of the good that was in the final
shooting script was Ellison's. Gerrold argues in THE WORLDS OF STAR
TREK that the most successful/worthwhile episodes were those in
which somebody, usually Kirk, has to make a major choice, e.g.
saving either his ]home[ universe or the woman he loves (at the time
of CotEoF, "the woman Kirk loves" still meant something).  There
were some alterations whose necessity I still don't see, the biggest
being the removal of the legless veteran (I suppose that in 1967
some antsy censor (excuse me, Network Standards executive) might
have thought that this was treasonous); this would have added
significant depth to what started to turn into just another
technical-problem story.
   And finally, a couple of facts about awards. The televised
version won the Hugo for Best Dramatic Presentation of 1967. This is
an award voted by SF fans based on what actually makes it to TV and
movie screens; ST episodes were the \only/ things on the ballot that
year, which is a measure of how little competition there was. The
original script, in a blind judging, won something like "best
episode in a serial drama", in awards voted by the scriptwriters
guild. This was Ellison's second award from the guild; he also won
for "Demon with a Glass Hand" and (later) for the STARLOST pilot. At
that time, \nobody/ had won three guild awards and very few had won
two; I don't know whether anyone else has accumulated three since
then, but I suspect that Ellison would have more if he hadn't
basically given up on TV a decade ago.

NB: If you think my opinion of TV (or Ellison's) is too strong, read
THE STARCROSSED by Ben Bova; it's a thin disguise of his experiences
as technical advisor and would be even funnier if it weren't mostly
true.

CHip (Chip Hitchcock)
ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM
uu: {decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 86 0946-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #363
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Oct 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 363

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 05:26:48 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Amber and Star Travel (mostly star travel)

>>Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia
>>Centauri....  Now, where, physically, is he?
>
>Nice question.  To make it more concrete, let's say that one of
>Merlin's classmates (from our world) is headed there the hard way,
>by space ship, and Merlin wants to meet him.  (So he must arrive at
>*our* Proxima IV.)  How?  1.  Shadow-walk.  Just as Corwin can
>choose to arrive in our world in France or the US, it is possible
>to choose to arrive on Proxima IV.  2.  Walk to an earth-like
>shadow which is technologically a few centuries ahead of our own,
>take the commuter flight to Proxima, and shadow-walk to our
>Proxima.

2) This will obviously work and get to the same Proxima that the
classmate gets to.

1) Can he really arrive in "our" world in France or the US, or can
he just arrive in a world identical to ours except that the entire
universe is at an angle (relative to some reference universe)
different from ours, thus putting France in one where US is on the
other?

If he can really travel through space in a single shadow, he'll
arrive at the same place the classmate arrives.

If the "travel-to-France" universe isn't the same as the
"travel-to-US" one or the "travel-to-Proxima" one, then he can only
arrive at a world identical except that the entire universe is
shifted 4 light years over (again, relative to a reference) so that
Proxima is where Earth is in this one.  He cannot encounter the
classmate, but only a counterpart identical except for being shifted
4 light years over and being in a different universe.  OK.  Now what
happens if it's an Amberite instead of a classmate?  Now the
counterpart cannot exist.  Oops.  This, then doesn't work so well as
a simulation of "travel".  So 2) appears to be the only answer.
(Perhaps it works using as an intermediate step a shadow where
distances are distorted so one can walk with one step to its
Proxima, so that returning to our universe would put the traveller
on our Proxima.)

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 1986  14:45 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: time

   Remember what Oberon says in Courts of Chaos: it is possible to
exert one's will on the timestream of a shadow making time flow
faster or slower as desired.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 15:18:53 edt
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: amber

I think the principle of parsimony demands we suppose one of Dara's
parents to be a Lord of Chaos. "Hellmaid" sounds like a denizen of a
place very close to the Courts,if not a part of it. And how is it
possible for her to live in the Courts now, if not by right? The
description of Merlin's childhood implies to me his noble status
both as a amberite and as a denizen of Chaos.

In response to whoever wrote against the ideas of Law vs. Chaos in
Zelazny: I agree that there is no reason to a priori suppose the
whole deal to be a Law vs. Chaos struggle, but the argument about
the lawful chaotics and the chaotic amberites only strengthens the
point -- think about the symbol of the Tai ch'i -- Zelazny may be
saying that law is reflected in chaos and vice versa.

Laurence Raphael Brothers
PS: to people who have sent me cc's and replies; I can't seem to
send anywhere not directly on the arpanet, (I'm bouncing to get on
it, so my mailer won't allow me to bounce again to get off it, say
to bitnet) -- sorry about that.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 12:30:41 GMT
From: sfsup!ndj@caip.rutgers.edu (N.Justus)
Subject: Amber -- sequence of books

Hi!

Several years ago I read the two volume set "The Chronicles of
Amber".  I have recently seen several Amber books in my local
B-Dalton and, having read the discussions on the net, am thinking
that more Amber books have been published since then.  Could someone
please e-mail me a complete listing of what books have been
published, and include in that their proper order?  My local
bookstore doesn't exactly have the greatest selection of Science
Fiction books in the known universe.

Thanks much and Blessed Be,
Nathan Justus
AT&T Information Systems
Summit, NJ
UUCP:
{allegra|apollo|decvax|bellcore|ihnp4|princeton|ucbvax}!attunix!ndj

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:09:08 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Dara and Merlin

Actually, Corwin went to Chaos from the place of the Pattern...maybe
it was that time line which was slowed down, rather than Chaos's.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 10:05:00 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber - the bird flies through shadow

     Last night I reread "Nine Princes in Amber" and "Guns of
Avalon".  It doesn't appear that the six finguered guys really could
walk shadow on their own.  BUT after Corwin escapes the dungeon he
sends two birds off with notes tied to their legs.  A white one and
a black one.  The black one takes a note to Eric.  The white one is
to go to a shadow of Avalon, and later finds Corwin in one of the
shadows of Avalon.  So there are other creatures which can wander
shadow!

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 1986  17:41 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
To: fai!ronc@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Amber - the six-fingered dudes

   You may recall that Corwin once refers to avoiding customs by
"taking a shortcut through shadow"

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Oct 1986 12:19 CDT
From: <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Corwin of Amber

"Steven R. Balzac" writes:
>   Also, I wouldn't be too sure that Corwin can't shape-shift by
>this point.  After all, when did Oberon first appear in the first
>set of Amber books?  When did we find that out....  Also, remember
>Merlin's comments in Trumps: first, that walking the Logrus can
>drive you temporarily insane, and second, much later (or earlier),
>that Corwin was rumored to be loony when he left the Courts of
>Chaos.  Coincidence??

Looking back at The Courts of Chaos (the book), I find the following
(Corwin speaking):
     "When all is done in that place [the Courts], and when Merlin
  has walked his Pattern and gone to clain his worlds, there is a
  journey that I must make.  I must ride to the place where I
  planted the limb of old Ygg, visit the tree it has grown to.  I
  must see what ahs become of the Pattern I drew to the sound of
  pigeons on the Champs-Elyse'es.  If it leads me to another
  universe, as I now believe it will, i must go there, to see how I
  have wrought."

   This seems to tell me where Corwin is.  He is off exploring the
universe that he created.  He could have walked the Logrus before he
left.  Merlin has certainly walked the Pattern.

Steve Besalke

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 19:08:16 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Amber -- WITH MAJOR SPOILERS

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>I don't think the chronology is quite right here.  I believe that
>>Dworkin fathered Oberon *before* drawing the pattern. ...
>
>  You may be right ...  On the other hand, Dworkin strikes me as
>  one who would put power ahead of anything else -- like a typical
>  Lord of Chaos.

I don't see what this has to do with it.  Dworkin is/was a Lord of
Chaos, regardless of when Oberon was born.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 22:36:22 GMT
From: peora!joel@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Amber - the bird flies through shadow

Wasn't there also references to some of the princes setting up trade
routes through shadow for the merchant fleets? I took this to mean
that only the descentants of Oberon can 'blaze' a trail through
shadow, but that other Amberites can move through shadow once they
have been shown the way.

Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation
Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road
Orlando, Florida 32809
(305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd, akgua!codas}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 23:49:18 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Amber: time-differential

From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU
>Frank Adams's question about the direction of time-differential
>between Amber and Chaos is right on the nose.  I think Zelazny
>slipped here, getting the "sign" of the difference wrong.  This is
>comparable to Niven's slip on the directionin which midnight moves
>around the earth, but it goes to the foundations of the story and
>cannot be repaired in a paragraph or two in the next edition.  it's
>one of those goofs to which you have to shrug and say, "Oh, well,
>suspension of disbelief just cracks at this point; I'll just have
>to patch it and ignore the discontinuity."

Who says time flow is constant within the Courts.  I personally
rather doubt it.

Merlin & Ancestors were clearly raised within a section of the
Courts where time is very fast.

A Note on Merlin's family: Dara stated in the Courts of Chaos that
the point of breeding Merlin was to produce a candidate for the
throne of Amber that was descended from the two most favored
claimants (Benedict and Corwin) AND be related to the first family
of the Courts implying that Dara's father must have been someone
VERY important in the Courts - possibly Swavil (sp) King of Chaos
himself given that Merlin calls Suhuy "Uncle" and Meg Devlin , who
shows definite Chaotic background, addressed him as Prince of Chaos.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 86 19:52:10 GMT
From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: AMBER

Reflections on Amber ...

(1) At the end of COC, Dara tells Corwin that he cost her "two of
the most important persons" in her life.  One is Borel, I am fairly
sure.  What about the other?  Kwan, the rider who preceded Merlin?

(2) In GOA, "Yes!" [Dara] interrupted.  "I had forgotten, or thought
he was just being mysterious or humoring me, but Brand said exactly
the same thing a long while ago.  What does it mean, though?"
     "Brand!  When was Brand here?" [asked Corwin].
     "Years ago," she said, "when I was just a little girl.  He used
to visit here often."
     Later, in SOU, Corwin recalls that "she said that Brand had
visited Benedict in Avalon.  'Frequently' was the word she had
used."  However, Benedict never mentions anything about this to
Corwin, and Corwin wonders if Dara was lying about this, as she lied
about growing up in Benedict's Avalon.  I know Brand went to Random
and Llewella in his search for Martin, but ...
     Did Brand visit Avalon frequently, or not?

(3) I don't think the question of whether Oberon was born before or
after the Pattern can be settled.  "Have you lost your taste to be a
lord of the living void, a king of chaos?" says Dworkin to Corwin,
whom he believes to be Oberon.  This implies that Oberon once lived
in Chaos.  But, Dworkin also tells the tale of the creation of the
Pattern, beginning with "the revelation of the Pattern in a jewel
hung round the neck of a unicorn".  If this was the first time
Oberon saw the unicorn, Oberon's mother, then the Pattern would have
been drawn before Oberon's birth.

(4) In NPIA, Corwin is riding to Amber with his brother Random, when
he realizes "that we had shared common parents, which I knew was not
the case with me and Eric, me and Flora, me and Caine and Bleys and
Fiona."  But in SOU, Corwin's mother Faiella turns out to be Eric's
mother also (and probably Caine's, though BOA denies this!) ... and
since Faiella died giving birth to Deirdre, and Random is younger
than Deirdre, Random's mother couldn't have been Faiella.  I'd go
with SOU on this.

(5) As to the identity of Merlin's "Guardian Angel" in BOA, consider
Ghostwheel!  Pseudo-Vinta acts a lot like a computer, Ghost and
Vinta are never in the same place together, and the Guardian Angel
MUST protect Merlin at all costs ... well, there is a lot of
negative evidence as well, so I think it's pretty far out.
     There is something to be said for the Unicorn interpretation as
well.  Recall when Vinta and Merlin are at the scene of a recent
dogfight: "Then she did a strange thing.  She knelt, leaned and
sniffed the track."  Strange for a person, not for a unicorn.

(6) The key line in BOA, I think, is: "I'd become convinced that he
was not the one -- that is, that he represented a threat to you--"
Psuedo-Vinta says this to Merlin to explain why she shot at Luke.
She does not elaborate, however.  Who is "the one" who is NOT out to
get Merlin?!

(7) It is interesting that Caine had very similar relations with the
hero Corwin and the traitor Brand.  Brand approached Caine when his
group was preparing to take the throne, but Caine responded by
double-crossing Brand, forming the new Eric-Julian-Caine cabal.
Much later, Corwin also approached Caine, asking that he let the
Corwin-Bleys attack force across the sea.  Caine double-crossed
Corwin in the same way he double-crossed Brand.  His actions
resulted (directly or indirectly) in the long imprisonments of both
Corwin and Brand.  THEN when Corwin and Brand returned, Caine tried
assassinating each of them, both attempts unsuccessful, but painful.
     If Corwin is aware that Rinaldo took Caine out, he should feel
relieved.  I'd trust the "assassin and arch-traitor" a lot further
than I'd trust the "eavesdropper and double-crosser"!  (But both are
dead, of course.)

(8) A quote on Dara, from the COC: "'You are of the royal house of
Chaos?'  [asked Corwin].  She smiled."  I think this one is open for
interpretation.  Corwin jumps to the conclusion that he was part of
a breeding project.  Didn't Jesus smile when one of his disciples
asked him if he was the Son of God?  If Dara is of Chaos, Lintra is
the only solution I see -- Lintra DID lop off Benedict's arm after
all, so we've got to give her SOME credit!

(9) Brand goes to a hell of a lot of trouble to put Corwin out of
action (this is before NPIA).  Fiona states that Brand saw bad omens
about Corwin in Tir-na Nog'th.  Brand wasted a lot of valuable time
and energy to hunt down Corwin; meanwhile all of Amber was after
him, and Fiona and Bleys finally got to him.  Does anyone see any
motivation outside of the Tir-na Nog'th omens?

Responses welcome.

Kevin Knight
knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Oct 86 0820-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #364
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Oct 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 364

Today's Topics:

            Television - Battlestar Galactica (3 msgs) &
                    Blakes 7 (2 msgs) & Dangermouse (6 msgs) &
                    Star Trek (3 msgs) & UFO (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 21:42:27 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica

trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes:
>As for the Colonial war, it had raged on for eons (or thousands of
>yahren) and the original cause of the war was forgotten.

The word yahren you wrote, which is obviously meant to be a plural
form ("thousands of yahren"), sounds, when pronounced in the obvious
way, suspiciously like the proper pronunciation of the german word
Jahren (which means years).  However, in the series, didn't they say
yarns? I.e. the word ended with an s when it was meant to be plural,
had only one syllable, and sounded like the word yarns.

I realize I'm being picky, but I don't think they were using the
german word for years.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 86 19:13:37 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (The lost Bostonian)
Subject: Re: History of the Cylons Re: Lost In Space/Battlestar
Subject: Galactica

I believe in part 2 of "War of the Gods", when Iblis met Baltar in
jail, Baltar identified Iblis' voice as the voice of the Cylon
Imperious Leader.  He then goes on to say that the Cylon race
existed (as non-machines) over 1000 yahren (yes they used yahren)
ago (perhaps yahren is a High word, like Quenya (didn't you just
know I had to get some Tolkien in there :-)).  Anyway, one could
draw conclusions that Iblis once belonged to that race.  Or, he
could have appeared in human form back then and become some sort of
dictator.

I never read the novelization, but I believe Apollo telling some
story to Boxy about how the Cylons made robots who eventually killed
their masters.

gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 19:11:16 GMT
From: vdsvax!wongeh@caip.rutgers.edu (Edison Wong)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica

6090617@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  writes:
>>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got
>>from the first book in the novelization was that the cylons were
>>an *organic* race, and not machines at all!
>
>  THAT IS WHAT THE novelization said, but the tv show differs. The
>novel claimed that there was some organic form inside the armor,
>augmented by robot abilities and additional electronic brains.

Either in the movie or early in the series (first season), it was
mentioned that the original cylons were a race of reptilian
creatures who were eventually destroyed by their creation, the
machines that the colonials now called cylons.  I think the
information was revealed by Apollo in one of his conversations (if
memory serves me correctly).  This reminds me of the way (Dr.)
Frankenstein's monster was named...

Edison

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 86 20:04:58 GMT
From: oswego!gacs3651@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Knighton)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7

   At last!  Someone brings up B7!  I have been watching it for the
past several weeks (30?) and have thoroughly enjoyed it.  A question
though...  Has Terry Nation redone any of the story lines into
novel(ette,la) format?  I would like to read it the way he
originally concieved of the series.

USMail: Robert C. Knighton
        RD #2 Box 321
        Central Sq., NY 13036
UUCP:   {siesmo, decvax}!rochester
        allegra !rocksvax!oswego!gacs3651

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 14:35:34 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7

Terry Nation did not do any of the "novels" that were published.
There are four B7 novels out.  Trevor Hoyle "Ultraworld" wrote the
first three which are James Blish-like adaptations and are "Blake's
Seven", "Blake's Seven and Project Avalon" and "Blake's Seven
Scorpio Atack."  The fourth novel is "original" and details what
this author (I'm not sure if it's Hoyle or not -- I have a feeling
it was Tony Attwood, but that could be wrong) thinks happened after
"Blake".  It's called "Afterlife" and it's not very good.  While
Terry probably had to approve the writing of the novels, I don't
think he did anything more than that.  Certainly "Afterlife" is
*not* his story of the story after "Blake."  I could recommend the
B7 Programme Guide (paperback is $4.50) which contains interviews
with many of the major people who worked on the show.  "Afterlife"
is also available -- although I would not recommend it.  Both can be
bought from "Bundles From Britain Box 34112 Chicago, IL 60634.  Send
a SASE for their catalog.

Has anyone noticed that Avon *never* seems to program a computer
through anything resembling a terminal/keyboard -- but through voice
or, more commonly, through his laser probes?  Any speculation on
what a "Tarriel cell" is/does?

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 86 17:18:51 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF TV

>Another is the British cartoon Dangermouse.  Although this might be
>considered more in the line of 'action', I think that the amazing
>car that always seems to repair itself { :-) } alone qualifies it.
>I was rather pleasantly surprised to find out that Oxford has a
>club called the "Dangermouse Appreciation Society".....

Dangermouse is in the line of utter hilarity.  Quick, dry wit, and
satire of James Bond.  DM is an agent (a mouse, naturally) who lives
in a pleasant little hole under a London pavement.  His companion is
a dim-witted character called Penfold -- a mole, I think.  An enemy
once substituted a robot for Penfold which just kept on walking
obstinately and saying "Ooh, crumbs!"  every once in a while.  Not
even DM could at first tell the difference.

Great show.  Wish it were shown over here more prominently.
Delighted to hear about the appreciation society.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 00:42:13 GMT
From: cogent!mark@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Steven Jeghers)
Subject: Re: Damgermouse

Dangermouse is definitely one of the high points of British comedy.
I especially like the narrator who tends to go off the deep end as
the program is ending.  BTW, Penfold is a hamster, I am pretty sure.

How can I join the appreciation society?

Mark Steven Jeghers
{ihnp4,cbosgd,lll-lcc,lll-crg}|{dual,ptsfa}!cogent!mark

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 00:36:50 GMT
From: crash!victoro@caip.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: SF TV

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:

>Dangermouse is in the line of utter hilarity.  Quick, dry wit, and
>satire of James Bond.  DM is an agent (a mouse, naturally) who
>lives in a pleasant little hole under a London pavement

What?  DM lives in the fashionable blue mail box (In his penthouse
apartment.  I believe you can see the street corner read 222 Baker ST.

>His companion is a dim-witted character called Penfold -- a mole, I
>think.  An enemy once substituted a robot for Penfold which just
>kept on walking obstinately and saying "Ooh, crumbs!"  every once
>in a while.  Not even DM could at first tell the difference.

No, my good man.  The chaps at Q branch believed that they could get
twice the efficiency out of their agents by using computer
assistants.  It didn't work...

>Great show.  Wish it were shown over here more prominently.
>Delighted to hear about the appreciation society.

It is still available on Nickolodian (A division of MTV..)

In addition, my three favorite episodes are: When the narrator
(Ichebod) takes over the show when (those boys at special branch)
have a cross circuit with his microphone and the reality matrix...

The Really Strange headquarters of OdBodkins Inc in New York city
which ends with us never knowing how they'll escape the Giant
Ba-nar-nar..

And the Episode where all the theme music is stolen..Oh Crumbs!

(And then there's the time Ms. Boathoot quit.)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 86 20:21:40 GMT
From: leonard@tekecs.TEK.COM (Leonard Bottleman)
Subject: Dangermouse

victoro@crash.UUCP (Victor O'Rear) writes:
>DM lives in the fashionable blue mail box (In his penthouse
>apartment.  I believe you can see the street corner read 222 Baker
>ST.

Dangermouse and his side-kick Penfold live in a red mail-box on
Baker Street (in Mayfair).  Their apartments are in the top part of
the box, the garage is at the bottom, and a lift connects the two
(there is also a stairway, which Penfold prefers to take).  The
mail-box is still used as such.

Penfold is a hamster.  DM is, of course, a mouse.  I think Colonel K
is a badger (or some such small furry creature), is anyone out there
sure about this?

Leonard Bottleman
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!tektronix!tekecs!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 05:36:47 GMT
From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: Dangermouse

leonard@tekecs.UUCP (Leonard Bottleman) writes:
>Penfold is a hamster.  DM is, of course, a mouse.  I think Colonel
>K is a badger (or some such small furry creature), is anyone out
>there sure about this?

Colonel K is a badger, it may have been said as much....  Miss
Boathook, his secretary, could be anyone's guess, Izenbod the
narrator is also unknown.  Other good guys include Doctor
Squakncluck, and Agent 57 whose explanation for his powers are
almost as varied as his disguises....

On the other side of the ring...  Baron Silus Greenback is a toad,
and is rumored to be a veiled attack at the American idea of
throwing money at a problem.  His main assistant is Stelletto, and
the other one reads comics ..  Other villians include the space
alien (???) and Count Duckula.

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, akgua, sdcsvax, cbosgd, sdamos, bang}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@[ucsd,nosc]
BIX:  victoro
Proline: ...!{pro-sol,pro-mercury}!victoro
People-Net: ....!crash!Pnet#01!victoro
Fandom: S.T.A.R. - San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 17:25:27 GMT
From: leonard@tekecs.TEK.COM (Leonard Bottleman)
Subject: Re: Dangermouse (also info. on Dangerzine)

fitz@ukecc.UUCP (Iyora Oroesaw) writes:
>   But can anyone remember Penfold's first name and codename?

I don't remember Penfold's first name, but his code-name is Puzzle
because when he's under pressure he goes to pieces.  Dangermouse is
so top secret that even his code-name has a code-name.

There's a group in Atlanta that's been working on 'Dangerzine', a
fanzine for Dangermouse.  I believe that they are now the
headquarters of the Dangermouse Fan Club of America, but I could be
wrong.  Here's the address that I have to write for more information

   Christopher Cook
   PO Box 456
   Atlanta, GA  30301.

Leonard Bottleman
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!tektronix!tekecs!leonard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:32:00 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: City

No, the drug pusher was not Scotty. He was a crewman named Beckwith
who had gotten crewman LeBeque hooked on the "Jewels of Sound", and
was blackmailing him for information on the cultures they contacted,
so he could use the info for his own profit. After LeBeque nearly
blows up the ship while high, he decides to take what he has coming
to him and goes down to tell Beckwith that he's turning him in.
Beckwith bashes him over the head with a bookend, in front of
witnesses, and then beams down to the planet.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:23:01 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: City on the Edge....

That wasn't all they cut out....In the original, Kirk let Edith fall
down the stairs, but at the end, he could not bring himself to stop
Beckwith (McCoy) , and Spock did it instead. We also see Spock
nearly attacked by a mob who thinks he is the "Yellow Peril", and
later we see his reaction to being reduced to menial labor. At the
very end, there is a scene in Kirk's cabin, where Kirk is standing
in front of his window ("if there is no window in Kirk's cabin, then
BUILD ONE, dammit!") and Spock comes in and offers to take him back
to Vulcan, where the "silver birds sing sweetly in the night". Kirk
comments that the derelict Beckwith killed was negligible in the
time stream, and then bitterly adds that Edith was too. Spock says:
"No, she was not negligible, for no other woman was ever offered the
universe for love."

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 86 12:36:38 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Janice Rand

Oh, by the way, in the original draft of "City", we see Janice
operating the transporter...Remember ST:TMP?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 86 16:57:36 GMT
From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: UFO

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>The moon base was pretty cool; all the women wore their hair
>>identically (bowl- type hairstyle), wore tight-fitting silver
>>mylar outfits. One or two of them were pretty tough people; in
>>one...
>
>Their hair was *purple* on duty, but somehow normal coloured on
>leave.

The reason their hair changed color was really quite simple. While
on moonbase all female personel (presumably because they were the
only ones with long enough hair to matter) were required to wear
"anti-static" wigs to suppress static electricity buildup so that
they wouldn't fry the computer or something.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 86 01:08:57 GMT
From: volkstation!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: UFO

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>One of Gerry and Sylvia's best efforts, in my opinion; superior to
>>Space:1999,
>
>Certainly true in my experience; but improving on Space:1999 was
>not terribly hard.  The Andersons often seem to me to be trying to
>make up with enthusiasm what they lack in expertise.

Unfortunately, Space: 1999 was made AFTER UFO.  The Andersons have a
habit of re-using set pieces (since they are rather expensive) and,
if the article in Fangoria (several years ago) was correct, UFO was
created primarily as a tool for using up old models from the
Thunderbirds series.

According to the article, the warehouse was full.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 86 16:59:24 GMT
From: rayssd!m1b@caip.rutgers.edu (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Re: UFO

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
>I always tried to overlook that fact that Skydiver alone was meant
>to cover every ocean on Earth.  And as you say, for aerial assaults
>it had only Sky One.

In the episode where the aliens used human time-bombs to disable
SHADO, one of these subs gets destroyed.  For this reason, I had
assumed that there were several of them, but the show only
concentrated on the one with Captain Peter Carlin.  There were
definitely two before this episode.

>Skydiver found a full base on the ocean floor, a whole fleet of
>UFO's came around the moon, and the 3 interceptors dealt with most
>of them, allowing Sky One to have a little fun with the remainder.
>How did the interceptors reload?  Haven't a clue.

If we are talking about the same episode, the moonbase also sent out
a bunch of tanks to fight UFOs skimming the surface.  There were
also some Earthbased tanks (camouflaged trucks?) that helped Sky One
destroy the remaining UFOs.

Joe Barone
{allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2,umcp-cs}!rayssd!m1b
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
Raytheon Co
Submarine Signal Div.
1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Nov 86 0834-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #365
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 365

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 86 18:36:25 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!benn@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Thomas Cox)
Subject: Arbitrary travel through Shadow

>>1.  Shadow-walk.  Just as Corwin can choose to arrive in our world
>>in France or the US, it is possible to choose to arrive on Proxima
>>IV.
>
>If the "travel-to-France" universe isn't the same as the
>"travel-to-US" one or the "travel-to-Proxima" one, then he can only
>arrive at a world identical except that the entire universe is
>shifted 4 light years over (again, relative to a reference) so that
>Proxima is where Earth is in this one.  He cannot encounter the
>classmate, but only a counterpart identical except for being
>shifted 4 light years over and being in a different universe.

Remember that, while we are told that it is theoretically possible
to travel to, or create [take your pick], any arbitrary universe,
you can't control what the personalities of the people will be like.
So if you meet your own exact double, the problem will be that
s/he's only physically like you.  His personality could be literally
anything.

>OK.  Now what happens if it's an Amberite instead of a classmate?
>Now the counterpart cannot exist.  Oops.

False.  ***SPOILER*** Doesn't Caine find *his* own double in a
nearby shadow, kill him, and plant the body to simulate his own
death?  Therefore counterparts CAN exist.

I think it's almost clear that the identical-in-every-way theory
won't work.  I wonder if any theory will?  Personally, I keep
wondering why, since the shadows near Amber will most resemble
Amber, they aren't always running into their own doubles?  Perhaps
the 'worlds' close to Amber only resemble it in topography, but [for
all we know] may even be uninhabited.

Thomas Cox
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!benn

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 86 21:57:40 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Amber -- sequence of books

   There were five books in the original Amber series by Roger
Zelazny:

   Nine Princes in Amber (1971)
   The Guns of Avalon    (circa 1973)
   The Sign of the Unicorn (circa 1975)
   The Hand of Oberon   (1976 or so)
   The Courts of Chaos  (1979)

The dates are off of the top of my head, some are books
publications, some are magazine serializations.
   About two years ago Roger started a second series set in the same
universes (universi?) as the first five books, but at a later date
and with a different main character. So far this series consist of:

   Trumps of Doom (1984)
   Blood of Amber (1986)

Indications are that this series will only last one more book. But
then, who knows.
   While I can recommend the first series with only minor
reservations (the first two books are VERY good, the first has the
most effective hook of any novel I've ever read) the second series
is probably only of major interest to fans of Roger and/or the first
series.

   Also, while I'm at it, someone posted a note a while back
conserning Dworkin's relations with the Unicorn. Several
possibilities come to mind; Dworkin using his shapechanging power to
make such an event more 'natural'; the Unicorn (her)self changing
shape, by all evidence in the series that was not a dumb beast; or
just plain and simple (what we would call) beastiality.  I qualify
that because we currently don't have standards for sex with
intelligent non-humans. But Corwin sums it up when he says "Though I
do have mixed feelings about being descended from a Unicorn", (Hand
of Oberon, I think) The nature of the Unicorn in the series really
seems to be more in the line of a god of some sort. Remember that
she first gave the Jewel to Dworkin, as well as returning it the
second time to the proper person.

   Both Trumps of Doom and Blood of Amber are by Arbor House. Blood
of Amber is currently only available in hardback.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 86 08:27:44 GMT
From: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Amber: Variable Time Differential

In Trumps of Doom, Merlin states:

"Now it was just a matter of time differential, a thing that was
subject to variation, the 2.5-to-1 ratio being only a rule of thumb
between Amber and the shadow I had recently inhabited."

Now, if the variation in the time differential is proportional to
the distance between shadows, the time ratio between Amber and Chaos
could vary wildly in both magnitude and sign.

This is the only explanation I can think of which would explain the
difference between Corwin's experience in Chaos and the time that
passed for in Merlin's life at the Courts.  (Other than that Zelazny
made a mistake.)

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@maps.cs.cmu.edu
BITNET:  by04@tf.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 23:57:08 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Travelling through shadows

Can an Amberite walk through shadow to Proxima Centaurus?

Almost certainly.

At one point in the original series (_The_Hand_of_Oberon_, I think),
Corwin in his authorial voice speculates about the nature of shadow;
in particular about whether shadow-walkers find or create the
shadows they walk to.  Since that particular section is leading up
to discussion of the Courts of Chaos, and the "create" option seems
hard to justify for the lands far from Amber (i.e., close to Chaos),
the reader can easily get the impression that the case for "finding"
is incontrovertable.  This impression is wrong.

Note that Amberites have no trouble finding one another in shadow,
once they know where to look.  When Corwin returns to Earth, he
doesn't return to a nearby shadow of Earth, with a shadow of Flora;
he returns to the same Earth, with the same Flora.

Even more compelling, at one point Corwin is talking to Oberon (in
_The _Courts_of_Chaos_), and discussing the incident when Corwin
escaping from the dungeons of Amber met Oberon disguised as Ganelon.
Oberon notes that that meeting was not accidental; he had arranged
things so that whatever route Corwin chose, it would lead to the
same place.  Clearly, the Amberites to some extent shape the
shadows, and don't just travel through them.

As an aside, one does have to know what a place is like in order to
get there.  Telling Corwin to meet you on Proxima Centauri won't
work if he has never been to Proxima Centauri.  (There are the
Trumps, of course, but one still requires a likeness of the person
or place represented by the Trump.)

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 86 00:05:49 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: amber

>I think the principle of parsimony demands we suppose one of Dara's
>parents to be a Lord of Chaos.

It isn't necessary to invoke the principle of parsimony here; we are
told that Dara is of the Royal house of Chaos.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 11:47:00 PST (Monday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber - Corwin

     In rereading the first five Amber stories this weekend one
option on the location of Corwin came to mind.  Near the end of "The
Courts of Choas", in Chapter 12, as they are seeing the procession
for their father, the talk turns to Corwin's second pattern.  Bleys
says "It is my understanding from things Dworkin told me, that two
distinct Patterns could not exist in the same universe."  And at
some other time Corwin mentions he wants to go check out his new
pattern.  One thought is the trumps might not work across universes.
So Corwin could be off wandering around in his own universe.
     I don't really think this is what is happening, for Zelany will
most likly have him in some kind of trouble.  Where he needs to be
rescued.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 18:06:09 GMT
From: rayssd!m1b@rutgers.rutgers.edu (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Zelazny book request (not Amber related)

Around 1980, Zelazny wrote "Changeling" followed by a sequel called
"Madwand".  This second book left itself open for another sequel.
Has this sequel ever been written and, if so, what is the title?  I
got the first two books through the SF Book Club but I've never seen
a sequel to this series offered by them.  Thanks for the assist.

Joe Barone
{allegra,cci632,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,raybed2,umcp-cs}!rayssd!m1b
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
Raytheon Co
Submarine Signal Div.
1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 16:45:47 GMT
From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Amber - the bird flies through shadow

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes:
>Wasn't there also references to some of the princes setting up
>trade routes through shadow for the merchant fleets? I took this to
>mean that only the descentants of Oberon can 'blaze' a trail
>through shadow, but that other Amberites can move through shadow
>once they have been shown the way.

You might be right.  I remember that close to Amber and the Courts
(but not too close) normal mortals and magical beings can reach
amber.  (Shadow is thin at that point?) That's why Julian patrols
the forest of Arden.  Merlin (or Corwin?) says Amber does quite a
bit of trading this way.

But, I thought it was interesting that there was always a prince of
Amber aboard ship when the merchant fleet set sail.  Perhaps
non-patternmasters can trade with Amber if their shadow is close
enough, but the royal merchant fleet must be led by a son of Amber
if they are going to go any distance into Shadow.

Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.)
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 14:03:30 GMT
From: cbdkc1!blb@rutgers.rutgers.edu ( Ben Branch 3S315 CB x4790 WSB )
Subject: Re: Zelazny book request (not Amber related)

At MarCon XXI this year, Zelazny mentioned that the third book was
written, but that the publisher and he "couldn't afford each other."
Pity. Someday....

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 21:20:34 GMT
From: weitek!robert@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: AMBER

knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) writes:
>Reflections on Amber ...
>(1) At the end of COC, Dara tells Corwin that he cost her "two of
>the most important persons" in her life.  One is Borel, I am fairly
>sure.  What about the other?  Kwan, the rider who preceded Merlin?

I assumed that she meant Merlin, who by that time (I think) had
already joined the Amberites.

>(2) In GOA, "Yes!" [Dara] interrupted.  "I had forgotten, or
>thought he was just being mysterious or humoring me, but Brand said
>exactly the same thing a long while ago.  What does it mean,
>though?"
>     "Brand!  When was Brand here?" [asked Corwin].
>     "Years ago," she said, "when I was just a little girl.  He
>used to visit here often."
>     Later, in SOU, Corwin recalls that "she said that Brand had
>visited Benedict in Avalon.  'Frequently' was the word she had
>used."  However, Benedict never mentions anything about this to
>Corwin, and Corwin wonders if Dara was lying about this, as she
>lied about growing up in Benedict's Avalon.  I know Brand went to
>Random and Llewella in his search for Martin, but ...
>     Did Brand visit Avalon frequently, or not?

Not. She knew Brand from the Courts of Chaos, which he frequented.
Brand may have visited Avalon (he knew Benedict's whereabouts, and
arranged for the hellmaids to cause him trouble), so he may have
visited there on occasion, but the point of this misdirection is to
allow Dara to drop names and gain credibility in Corwin's eyes.

>(4) In NPIA, Corwin is riding to Amber with his brother Random,
>when he realizes "that we had shared common parents, which I knew
>was not the case with me and Eric, me and Flora, me and Caine and
>Bleys and Fiona."  But in SOU, Corwin's mother Faiella turns out to
>be Eric's mother also (and probably Caine's, though BOA denies
>this!) ... and since Faiella died giving birth to Deirdre, and
>Random is younger than Deirdre, Random's mother couldn't have been
>Faiella.  I'd go with SOU on this.

Corwin was wrong when he made that statement. Those who enjoy
explaining away inconsistencies can beg off on the excuse that
Corwin's memory was still defective when he said it. Frankly, I
think Zelazny made a mistake.

>(5) As to the identity of Merlin's "Guardian Angel" in BOA,
>consider Ghostwheel!  Pseudo-Vinta acts a lot like a computer,
>Ghost and Vinta are never in the same place together, and the
>Guardian Angel MUST protect Merlin at all costs ... well, there is
>a lot of negative evidence as well, so I think it's pretty far out.

I don't believe the timing works out. Gail (Vinta) knew Rinaldo
several years before, in a time before Ghostwheel was finished.

My theory is that Dara arranged for this protection.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 10:34:01 PST (Wednesday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: AMBER
Cc: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu

knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight) writes:
>(1) At the end of COC, Dara tells Corwin that he cost her "two of
>the most important persons" in her life.  One is Borel, I am fairly
>sure.  What about the other?  Kwan, the rider who preceded Merlin?

     The way I took this to mean Oberon.  She had spent some time
with him.  And now he was dead.  This wasn't really Corwin's fault,
but Oberon was the person who came to mind.  The only two other
possiblities which come to mind are Benedict or Corwin himself.  It
doesn't appear that Dara has gotten to know Benedict very well yet.

>(5) As to the identity of Merlin's "Guardian Angel" in BOA,
>consider Ghostwheel!

     Side comment on Ghostwhell.  I don't understand why Ghostwheel
hung up after Merlin said he wasn't going to shut it down, after
spending all the time and energy to build him.  Any speculation?

     Have a good day.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 86 14:39 MST
From: Mandel%pco@MULTICS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Amber - the birds that fly through shadow

Those aren't ordinary birds that Corwin sends.  They are "birds of
his desire", which will fly ahead of him through Shadow to the place
he wants to (or rather: IS DESTINED to) go to.  I'd consider them to
be emanations of himself, or things he actually creates within the
shadows, maybe by the same ability by which he can walk Shadow.
(Doesn't an Amberite somewhere say something about finding any
desired shadow being more-or-less equivalent to creating it?  That
finding can find/create anything in Shadow except personality, and
these birds certainly don't meet that exclusion clause.)

There's also the "arrow of his desire", which he fires aloft to find
the way to go next; I think it's to find which direction in the
current shadow to follow, in order to begin his shadow-walk to the
next destination.

And remember the grey and black hawk that he summons/whatever in
Arden to bring down Julian's falcon Bela, which he mistakenly thinks
is hunting him.  (I may have the species wrong.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Nov 86 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #366
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 366

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 17:09:27 GMT
From: byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

   It seems to me that the telegraph could be the technological
breakthrough that almost anyone could bring to the 17th century.
Almost everyone in today's society learns the concepts to building a
telegraph in elementary school.  [string two wires with a switch on
one end and an electromagnet with a piece of iron above it on the
other. When an electrical source such as a battery or generator is
connected between the two and the switch is closed the electromagnet
attracts the iron and a click occurs. Add a system for transmitting
characters (Morse code) and you have a rather effective
communication system.  This is for those of you who may have
forgotten since 3rd or 4th grade.]  Many of today's children build
such devices for science fairs, I did when I was in high school.

Of course children and adults alike today have access to the
materials available. (as I remember I used a 6V battery, 22 gauge
wire, two iron nails, and the tops of metal cans for the switch and
the "clicker"). But in the 17th century there was technology to
build everything but the battery. But once again most 20th century
people with a H.S. diploma (I hope) had the chemistry enough to
understand how a battery works (Watch McGyver (sp) Monday nights at
8:00 PM ABC to get home made hints like sticking two wires of
different metallic content into acid to develop a current). So in
theory anyone should be able to build a telegraph with 17th century
technology.

To continue my speculations... If you can build an electromagnet you
can build a relay, an electric motor, and an electric generator
(animal or water powered). With a relay one could conciveably build
a computer..... Hmmmmmmmm...

Byron Jeff
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!byron

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 23:15:56 GMT
From: cae780!alan@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

>Anyone out there have some thoughts on this subject? What would
>you, yourself, do if you suddenly woke up 2-300 years ago and
>figured that's where you'd be the rest of your life? (I mean aside
>from wishing you had kept that last dental appointment... :-)

I would worry about getting contact lens solution.  I guess I could
find a lens-maker, if it isn't too far in the past, and go back to
wearing glasses.  I could probably survive by making simple
"inventions" that wouldn't stir up too much of a fuss, like coffee
filters, or ice cream.

Alan Steinberg
textronix!cae780!alan

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 00:42:07 GMT
From: tekla!dant@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: A Time Travel Query

From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
>When this situation occurs in books or other media SF, as I recall,
>the authors seem to cheat. They give the main characters special
>knowledge, gimmicks, or talents ... [examples from Twain, Dr. Who,
>etc.]

Two more examples from literature (and much more realistic):

Poul Anderson wrote a story (name escapes me, library is at home)
wherein an American Air Force sergeant stationed in Iceland is
transported back to the 11th century.  He has learned Icelandic,
which is very similar to Norse, but other than that his only unusual
resource is a pistol (I think he is a Security Policeman).  (Slight
SPOILER) Unfortunately, he does not achieve fame, fortune, etc.

L. Sprague de Camp's _Lest_Darkness_Fall_ is slightly less
realistic.  (Another SPOILER) His protagonist is an (American?)
archeologist living in Rome who is transported to the 5th or 6th
century.  He knows Latin of course, but is somewhat hazy on the
history of the period (his specialty is another period).  (Final
SPOILER warning) He achieves some fortune by "inventing" the still
and the Hindu-Arabic numerals along with long division (ever try
doing long division in Roman numerals?).

>Anyone out there have some thoughts on this subject? What would
>you, yourself, do if you suddenly woke up 2-300 years ago and
>figured that's where you'd be the rest of your life? (I mean aside
>from wishing you had kept that last dental appointment... :-)

I suspect that most people would end up as either slaves or dead
rather quickly.  I can just see myself trying to make money teaching
pre-technical people about C programming :-)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 16:08:37 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

[I didn't include any of the previous ideas.  Basically, it's
"you're in the 16th-17th century, what do you do?"]

Me, I'd invent electricity.  In fact, I'd re-create all the
inventions that Edison had invented (after all, the *materials* he
used (except for cellulose (film)) were around for centuries, if the
*technology* wasn't), starting with the electrical generator.  How'd
you like to be an Advisor on Technology for the Medicis (or the King
of England or something, if you've got morals--if I had a time
machine, morals would be the first thing I'd lose ;-).

One more literary note:

***MAJOR SPOILERS FOLLOW***

"Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen" by H. Beam Piper.  He invents gunpowder
(not at all difficult--I know an even easier formula) and, using
18th century tactics, takes over the world in a benign dictatorship
(yeah, right).

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 16:54:29 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

I have loved time stories were the person(s) were plopped in time
with no warning.  I also thought how overly convenient the Ordinary
people have certain talents to help them (you have mentioned the few
I remember off the top of my head).  The biggest problem, I see, is
when the main character can speak the language of the historical
characters.  So I looked around for books that dealt with this part
and found nothing (true I didn't look very hard).  Therefore I set
up my own plot line that dealt with a person not knowing the
language in his/her time destination.  What I found was a very
difficult way of getting this person to survive, and once I did, I
found other problems such as changing time.  Once I got passed these
blocks, there was the problem of explaining things once he/she got
back.  So now I know why there are not many (if any) books written
about language differences.  Hopefully some talented writer can work
it out and create a good story.  I can't wait to read it.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 19:31:00 GMT
From: cord!miker@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mike Roberson)
Subject: Re: An [ordinary persons] Time Travel Query

From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
>... [what] if a person from the present is transported to a past
>time...?  When this situation occurs in books or other media SF, as
>I recall, the authors seem to cheat. They give the main characters
>special knowledge, gimmicks, or talents ...  ... what about the
>ordinary man or woman of today, not equipped with a library or a
>photographic memory, [or 'special knowledge, gimmicks...'] ?

One example of this situation is R.A.Heinlen's "JOB: a Comedy of
Justice".

Mike Roberson
UUCP: {ihnp4,cbosgd,akgua}!cord!miker

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1986 10:27:32-EST
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

Will Martin (wmartin@almsa-1.arpa) put a thought-provoking question
on Time Travel in SF #360, about what would a modern citizen do if
suddenly transported back in time to a pre-technological age.  He is
right - most authors do cheat.  Another example of cheating, similar
to Clemens, is deCamp's _Lest_Darkness_Fall_, where the time
traveler is transported to Italy in the 500's, where, knowing Latin,
he plays a major role in changing history by helping the Goths hold
off the Byzanstines and preventing the Dark Ages from starting in
Italy (along with "inventing" the printing press and double entry
bookkeeping.)

The story he mentions about the State Policeman is probably Piper's
_Lord_Kalvan_, where Corporal Morrison is transported rather to a
ability, charisma, political savvy, better formula for gunpowder,
etc. to exploit the situation (and marrying the boss's daughter
doesn't hurt either :-)).

There was a short story, I think in Analog, a while ago about an
American soldier stationed in Iceland who gets transported back
about a thousand years to Viking times.  He can figure enough of the
language to get by, and having his pistol helps, but he runs afoul
of local customs and winds up slightly dead.

However, to get back to the question of how a modern, reasonably
educated, somewhat sedentary person would do in the historical past
if dropped in a non-wilderness area, I think the answer might be
better than Will thinks.  Most people know enough of the general
outlines of history to know who will win wars, expand in which
directions, etc. to either stay out of trouble or exploit which can
be "invented", if not gunpowder, then the printing press, matches,
steam engine, cotton gin, etc.

I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of
modern medical and dental care.  It would be a shame to die of
appendicitis or pneumonia (add penicillin to the invention list) or
other curable problems.

Harold Wyzansky
(wyzansky@nadc.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 29 Oct 86 23:47:20-EST
From: Rob(s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet)
Subject: re:time travel question

>Twain's "Connecticut Yankee" just happens to be carrying an almanac
>which gives him details about a solar eclipse.

Actually, he wasn't carrying an almanac.  He merely remembered the
date and time of the eclipse.  He also remembered that a missionary
in some primitive land (in his present) had recognized an eclipse as
it happened, and had used it to save his life.  This gave him the
idea to use it.

Although it almost doesn't save him, if you recall.  The page he
asks for the date gives him the wrong one, and he thinks he's going
to be burned (or hanged, or whatever) a day early.  Luckily, the
eclipse happens on time.

I don't see the special qualities listed as being "cheating,"
however.  Twain wasn't trying to write a "man from the present goes
back in time and rules the world" type of story.  It was more of a
social commentary on Twain's time, comparing pre- and post-
industrial societies.

Rob Freundlich
Wesleyan University
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 16:39:25 GMT
From: udenva!showard@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

  Check out a short story (essay, really) called "Language for
Time-Travellers" (no, that doesn't sound right, but that's the gist
of the title) by L.  Sprague deCamp.  In it he mentions things like
vowel shifts and the advent of silent letters, etc.

Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
{boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 14:08:12 GMT
From: stolfi@jumbo.DEC.COM (Jorge Stolfi)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

William G. Martin asks:
>So, the query: if a person from the present is whisked to a past
>time, back to a pre-electrical, pre-Industrial Revolution society
>(by surprise, without being able to prepare for it, and cannot move
>back and forth through time as they wish -- they are just grabbed
>from here&now and plunked smack dab into then&there), how could
>that person use their knowledge to support themselves, make
>themselves rich and/or famous, change or control the society they
>find themselves in, or otherwise be successful by some definiton?

This kind of situation actually happened many times in the past,
whenever a shipwrecked sailor or a lost explorer found himself
transplanted by accident into a more primitive society.  The few
cases I know suggest that the farther you go back in time, the LESS
you can count on your knowledge to achieve success.

For example, the British sailor who inspired the novel _Shogun_ was
able to succeed in 16th century Japan largely because the local
lords were enlightened enough to get interested in his knowledge of
European geography, history, and politics.  In contrast, a German
sailor who ended up among the indians in Brazil at about the same
time barely managed to rise from the rank of exotic entree to that
of the tribe's mascot, and that on account of his physical
appearance only.

Maybe we should collect a few more anedoctes, and draw a graph or
something...

j.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 86 01:50:22 GMT
From: apollo!nelson_p@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: RE: time travel query

Basic survival would be a non-trivial issue.  First of all, there
would be the basic problem of lack of familiarity with customs and
the tools and conduct of day-to-day life.  Even your accent would be
different.  Probably it would be a good idea to get to a large city
quickly since small villages would be provincial and very suspicious
of anyone as obviously different as someone who just arrived from
the late 20th century.  There you could claim to be from another
country to account for your 'differentness'.  If you try that in the
Colonies then you better be familiar with nautical things because
the only way you could have arrived there is via a long sea trip.

Economic survival is another issue.  You would need to get some
money for basic necessities.  Perhaps you think that you could
engage in some kind of craft but if you arrived penniless it would
be hard to break in and in any case you would need something short
term just to eat.  And by the way, do you know how to ride a horse?
Perhaps you could feign idiocy and hope for charity until you could
get your bearings.  In the long run, if you last that long, being
able to read and write might provide a marketable skill (teacher?)
and I've even heard of villages where the one literate citizen could
make a comfortable living writing and reading letters for the others
but there we get back to the problem of village life.

I also thought of another survival problem: disease.  We live in a
*relatively* antiseptic environment here compared to daily life in
colonial times.  Not only that, but many viruses undergo gradual
changes over the years (witness flu virus).  Upon arrival, your body
would be exposed to all kinds of nasty diseaes with which it was
ill-prepared to cope.  And medicine back then consisted of things
like leeches.  I suppose *that* would be one advantage of being a
poor idiot: you don't have to worry about getting such advanced
medical care.

Assuming you were still alive after the first few weeks you might
start worring about whether the temporal adjustment that landed you
there was likely to happen again.  If it happened once...
Maintaining your sanity with that on your mind, not to mention the
wrenching experience of originally being yanked out of the 20th
century and everything familiar would be quite a feat.  It might
help if you could contact other extemporates (..that's a new word I
invented...it means something like expatriot, only for *time*) but
finding a way to do that without ending up in Bedlam or whatever the
Colonial version was called would be another challenge.  Nowadays,
people are much more accepting of weirdness.  Is there anyone else
out there who recently arrived from New Washington, 105ish AT?  Do
you know whether Nathan Kennedy was re-elected presicom?

Peter

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Nov 86 0912-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #367
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 367

Today's Topics:

          Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Card & DeCamp (2 msgs) &
                  Dickson & Eddings & Norman & Pangborn (2 msgs) &
                  Williams & Ace Doubles & Malevil (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 16:46:41 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Brin

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>... Brin writes for all the world like a high school student. (I
>even ran a section of his text through one of these "star analysis"
>algorithms to determine it's reading level...it came out between
>9th and 10th grade skill level.)

That's a good sign.  I wish I could get my technical memos down to
that level.  Those algorithms usually count things like long words,
words with prefixes and suffixes, and length & complexity of
sentences.  Certain bad writing habits, such as the use of
unnecessary jargon and tangled syntax, raise the skill level.  The
effect is that the poor reader has to work harder to get the meaning
out of all this mush.

I have heard that the New York Times has a reading skill level
around 9th grade.  So, what you report is consistent with my
impression, that Brin's writing is decent and workmanlike without
being notably distinguished.

Gene Wolfe's style *is* notably distinguished, and quite good, and
it ought to cause arithmetic overflow on those "star analysis"
algorithms.  Now, with any luck, I'll have revived one of the most
long-winded arguments on this net group.  But my intention is to
show that the connection between "reading skill level" and the
quality of prose is not simple.

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 07:44:49 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Brin

cjh@petsd.UUCP (C. J. Henrich) writes:
>Certain bad writing habits, such as the use of unnecessary jargon
>and tangled syntax, raise the skill level.  The effect is that the
>poor reader has to work harder to get the meaning out of all this
>mush.

Agreed.  The big difference between the prose in Startide Rising and
Sundiver (his earlier book in that same universe) wasn't jargon,
vocabulary, or anything else immediately obvious.

Polish.  It didn't stand out.  It was just effective.

Zelazny is particularly good at this type of thing.  He'll alter the
style depending on the effect he wants.  Unless he's trying for a
particular atmosphere though, he sticks to a very simple, direct,
and seemingly-natural style.  I say seemingly because it doesn't
seem hard to write that way until you actually try and do it.

The best I've been able to do with technical papers/memos is 12th.

Ray

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 13:43 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Speaker for the Dead

Great Book!  As good as Ender's Game!  The book picks up many years
after Ender's Game has ended, and Ender Wiggin is still waiting to
complete his task for the hive queen.  At the same time, Humanity
has finally found a second sentient race, that they call the
Piggies.  The resolution of Ender's problem and the Piggies' problem
is wrapped up together with that of a number of problems within the
colony dedicated to observing the Piggies.  There is also an
interesting sub-plot involving computer sentience.  If you liked
Ender's game, you'll like Speaker for the Dead.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 19:37 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: harold shea

I would appreciate any help anyone could offer in my attempt to
locate _The Wall of Serpents_, by L. Sprague De Camp and Fletcher
Pratt, which contains the last two novellas about Harold Shea (The
"Incompleat Enchanter").  In particular, (attn: bibliography is my
businessman) the publication date(s) and form.  I understand that
the book is tied up in contractual difficulties, and it is unlikely
that the book will be reprinted.  Hence, I'd like to obtain a copy
of the original.  Has anyone ever even _seen_ the book?  Thanks in
advance.

greg morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 15:54:52 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: harold shea

S6VYJE%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>I would appreciate any help anyone could offer in my attempt to
>locate _The Wall of Serpents_, by L. Sprague De Camp and Fletcher
>Pratt, which contains the last two novellas about Harold Shea (The
>"Incompleat Enchanter")  In particular, (attn: bibliography is my
>businessman) the publication date(s) and form.

Dunno the date(s), but two novellas, "Wall of Serpents" and one
other (I forget--it's been about 3 yrs.) were reprinted in paperback
as "The Enchanter Completed".  Dunno the company, either, but it was
one of the biggies (Avon, Ace, etc.). (Also includes an intro by
Mrs. Pratt.)

Hope that's enough info.

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 02:58:09 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60aB)
Subject: Childe Cycle Question

    I have a question about the Childe Cycle books by Gordon
Dickson.  Please forgive me if it has been discussed before; I'm new
to this newsgroup.

    There is a discrepancy in the event sequences between
_Soldier_Ask_Not_ and _Dorsai!_ having to do with when Kensie Grahme
was killed.  In _Dorsai!_, Kensie was killed before the battle of
Zumbri.  Donal gets a message from his father about Kensie's death
and asks him to take Ian Grahme (Kensie's twin brother) as a
subordinate (Donal hires Ian as training supervisor).  However, all
this happened while Donal was Warlord of the Friendlies.

    In _Soldier_Ask_Not_, Tam Olyn (a news reporter) goes to
St.Marie ostensibly to get the local reaction to the battle of
Zumbri (another error is that Dickson mistakenly refers to Zumbri as
Oriente.  Oriente was a different battle occurring earlier in
_Dorsai!_ and mentioned erlier in _Soldier_.)  At this point Kensie
is alive and well because later on he is the commander of the St.
Marie forces fighting the Friendly forces.  It is only after the
defeat of the Friendlies that Kensie is killed.

    Kensie (and his death) is much more important to _Soldier_ than
to _Dorsai!_ so it would be easier to change the latter.  In
addition, there is also a short story (name eludes me now) detailing
Kensie's death.  This story conforms to the events in _Soldier_.

    Mr. Dickson has probably been made aware of this discrepancy
(these books are at least 20 years old).  Has he ever attempted to
correct it?  If not, why not?

    I'll stifle in advance the objection that the books are
independent and do not have to conform to events in other books.
For most books this would be true, but Mr. Dickson has stated in
print that the Childe Cycle books can be read as stand alone books
or as a composite whole.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 21:50:10 GMT
From: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

lawitzke@msudoc.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes:
> I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and
> would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to
> read it.

Me too!  This is one of the best series I've seen lately.  Part of
the charm for me was that the characters were depicted with a sense
of humor.  Most of them seemed believable in their actions and
feelings, and I could easily relate to many of the human situations
in the books.

> The Belgariad consists of five books: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of
> Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry, and Enchanter's
> End Game.

Go out and buy 'em.  You won't be sorry!

Steve Chapin
ARPA:  sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu
UUCP:  ...!purdue!sjc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 14:19:57 EST
From: PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Gor

Hi,
A friend of mine recommended the Gor series by John Norman.  I went
to the bookstore and found 9 different books, none of them number
one.

Could someone post a listing of the books, with some sort of
rating/review?  Did John Norman write any other books?  (I have seen
these books discusssed before, 'specially under the Sex in SF
discussions.)

Thanx,
Stephen Pearl
Pearl@Blue.Rutgers.Ed

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 19:36:00 GMT
From: hp-pcd!carl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (carl)
Subject: Re: post-holocaust - DAVY

If you haven't read DAVY by Edgar Pangborn, do it, NOW, or sooner.
This is one of those quiet books that is not flashy, or explosive,
or anything but an amazing book.  The characters are GREAT, the
writing is GREAT, the book is GRRRREEAAAAAT!! (sorry, Tony.)  The
only thing that makes this book science fiction is its setting in a
post-holocaust America.  It starts out fairly mellow, and the plot
doesn't seem to be going anywhere real fast, and then suddenly
you're done with the book, and you know you're going to miss the
characters for a long time, and you wish there was a 1000 pages
more.  I realize this is a very disjoint dissertation, but I tend to
froth at the mouth a lot when talking about
books/movies/arts/people/etc of this quality/level.  If you haven't
read it, run to your nearest book dealer and get it.  If you have
read it, now's a good time to read it again!  Edgar Pangborn was one
of those authors that never generated a very large body of work, and
for some reason never seemed to get much credit or press, but Davy
is his masterpiece and should be required reading of everyone before
being allowed to join the human race.

Everett Kaser
Albany, OR

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 15:41:51 GMT
From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241)
Subject: Re: post-holocaust - DAVY

This work, as well as all of Pangborn's work would be recommended by
other science fiction authors no matter what their personal opinions
about each other, Reagan, Carter, the Mets or what.  Pangborn loved
people and it shows in his work.

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

From: andromeda!pete@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Peter Farabaugh)
Subject: RE:post-holocaust
Date: 29 Oct 86 21:16:57 GMT

  Try the Books on Pelbar by Paul O. Williams(?). I'm a bit fuzzy
about the titles but some of them were:

  The Fall of the Shell
  Ambush in Shadows
  The Dome in the Forest
  The Breaking of Northwall(?)

   They are interesting in that most of the stuff about the
holocaust and past history is told only in passing and by the covers
of the books.  If you were to read them without seeing the pictures
or reading the blurbs, it would probably take you a couple of
chapters to realize that this is a post-holocaust book.

Peter Farabaugh.
..topaz!andromeda!pete
PS: They were also pretty good reading for entertainments sake.
PPS: If you've read them and didn't like them , please don't bother
me by telling me how bad they were. It's all just a matter of
opinion.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 86 19:14:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Ace Doubles

>From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
>These go back a long way.  One of the earliest, for example, has as
>one of the pair Asimov's "The Thousand Year Plan"--later retitled
>"Foundation".

  You have your chronology switched here.  The Ace book was an
abridged (I think) reprint of the Gnome Press hardcover which
carried the familiar title.  The stories themselves, of course, go
back even further to 1940 magazine appearances.

>Initially, the doubles could be quite long, but by the 1960s they'd
>settled on a 256-page format.  Far from being a way to stretch
>novelletes, this became a way to chop novels.

  True.  This should not be taken to imply that all Ace 'novels'
were chopped up versions of longer works; though, many were.  Some
of the works, taken from the pulps of the 40's and 50's, were
'naturally' the correct length.

>Off the top of my head, some of the better Ace double titles which
>I haven't seen reissued include "Crisis in 2140" (H Beam Piper,
>despite the claim that all his books have been reissued),

AKA "Null-ABC" with John McGuire.  It ran as a two part serial in
"Astounding" when most of the 'normal length' novels (e.g. "Mission
of Gravity") ran in three; so, it probably did not have to be
'chopped' for publication.  I have asked on the net before but got
no answer; so, I shall ask again: Does anybody know the story of the
Piper-McGuire collaborations and why McGuire's by-line has been
dropped from recent reprints?  Anybody?

>"Reality Forbidden" and "The Mad Metropolis" (Philip E High),
>"Crown of Infinity" (author?), "Vulcan's Hammer" (Philip K Dick),
>"Ladder in the Sky" (Woodcott?), "The Door Through Space" (Marion
>Zimmer Bradley--who is not about to let this one be reissued), "The

I thougth that it _had_ been reissued; though, with MZB's original
ending rather than the one by the book's editor (Donald Wolhiem).
This novel shares certain names and situations (cf. the 'Dry Towns')
with the Darkover series and has been ocassionally cited as being a
part of that series.  It is not.

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 86 13:15:25 cet
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels

One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I
forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here).  It's
a story set in France, and about the owner of a medieval castle that
becomes a community after a bomb (which turns out to be a lithium or
other "clean" device) is dropped.  Doesn't really go into all the
whys and etc. of The Day It Happened -- focusses more on the social
implications of being suddenly deprived of most of our technology,
and the fact that things regress to a feudal-like order (reinforced
by Malevil itself).

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 00:22:59 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels

7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I
>forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here).
>It's a story set in France, and about the owner of a medieval
>castle that becomes a community after a bomb (which turns out to be
>a lithium or other "clean" device) is dropped.  Doesn't really go
>into all the whys and etc. of The Day It Happened -- focusses more
>on the social implications of being suddenly deprived of most of
>our technology, and the fact that things regress to a feudal-like
>order (reinforced by Malevil itself).

I got hold of _Malevil_ and started reading it too.  The book
appeared, on the whole, to be pretty good.  But: It was translated
from French into English.  A lot of the names are incredible (unless
you're French :-)).  If you can handle getting bogged down with some
strange terms and names, than this book is good reading.  Otherwise,
it may be too difficult to follow.  If you can read French pretty
well, I would bet that the original is great.

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 23:43:45 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels

> One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I
> forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here).

MALEVIL is by Robert Merle, who also wrote THE DAY OF THE DOLPHIN.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Nov 86 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #368
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 368

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Barzman & Brin &
                    DeCamp (2 msgs) & Eddings & Fancher &
                    Jardine & Norman (2 msgs) & Palmer & Zahn &
                    Wolfman Stories & In Search of Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 13:13:43 GMT
From: jc3b21!larry@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) writes:
> The annoying thing about Piers Anthony is that he can occasionally
> have a really good imagination. The basic plots for Xanth, the
> Phaze/Proton books, the Bio of a Space Tyrant, and the
> Incarnations of Immortality are are great stuff. In the hands of
> even a semi-competent writer, they might turn out to be great
> series'. Upon reading the first book of each series, I thought,
> "Boy, this is great. I can't wait for the second book." When I
> read the second book, I usually thought "Hmmm, ...  rule the
> universe, that's just the way it will have to be. To recap: Piers
> Anthony is a bad writer. Piers Anthony is to
> science-fiction/fantasy writing as Kate Bush is to pop music.
> Thank you.  ...

Hmm... Well I happen to be a sometime Kate Bush fan, so...

Actually, Adam does make a few good points (perhaps just a bit
loudly).  One he does not mention, though, is that the same "...Boy,
this is great...  Uh, maybe not great, but good...Fair...Yawn!..."
happens inside the stories as well.  I have noted it particularly in
the 'Incarnations of Immortality' series.  The books start out great
(particularly _On a Pale Horse_) but kind of fade away during the
middle and sort of leave you wondering at the end if the book is
really finished!

On the other hand, there is considerable MUCH WORSE trash out there!


Lawrence F. Strickland
(larry@jc3b21)
Dept. of Engineering Technology
St. Petersburg Jr. College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
Phone:  +1 813 341 4705
UUCP:  ...akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 19:38:26 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Piers Anthony

Spoiler maybe?????

There has been some bad reviews on _Race Against Time_.  There have
also been those who quote matterial from the book to give a person a
chance to understand the problem.  Thank you!

I was nearly half through the book before I saw the reviews and
asked someone to tell me why it was sooooo bad.  Even when I was
told I could not believe.  This was not the same book I was reading.
My book told of struggle to be free of prison in a race of purely
caucasian and told who you were to marry.

I have to defend Mr. Anthony a little.  Even when I had finished the
book and knew why there were so many bad reviews, I still felt that
Anthony was trying to show how culture makes a people vital.  Yes he
failed miserably in my view.  The book might be a good read if taken
with a grain of salt.  Oh, I'm not sorry I finished reading it even
though I hated its theme.

jody

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 30 Oct 1986 00:34:04-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Alternate Earths

From: MSgt Robert L. Stevenson  <DOET.AFCC@AFCC-3.ARPA>
> I'm suprised that noone has mentioned "Echo X" by Ben Bova, but
> then again it's been some time since I read it and maybe it has
> slipped from popularity.

ECHO X was by Ben Barzman, not Ben Bova.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 23:39:38 GMT
From: unc!gallmeis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Gallmeister)
Subject: Re: Brin ("easy" vs. "good" writing)

cjh@petsd.UUCP (C. J. Henrich) writes:
>demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>>... Brin writes for all the world like a high school student. (I
>>even ran a section of his text through one of these "star
>>analysis" algorithms to determine it's reading level...it came out
>>between 9th and 10th grade skill level.)
>
>That's a good sign...

What constitutes "good" writing as opposed to "easy" writing is open
to debate.  It should be noted that a simple, straightforward style
(Ellison is an example in speculative fiction, I think) is often
thought to be as "good" as more intricate prose.

An excellent essay on the matter -- perhaps the only GOOD thing I
read in High School English -- is Orwell's "Politics and the English
Language." The man thought right, is all I can say about it (and
I'll be incredibly embarrassed if I've botched the attribution).

Bill O. Gallmeister
mcnc!unc!gallmeis

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 01:19:47 GMT
From: husc2!moews@rutgers.rutgers.edu (moews)
Subject: Re: harold shea

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>Dunno the date(s), but two novellas, "Wall of Serpents" and one
>other (I forget--it's been about 3 yrs.) were reprinted in
>paperback as "The Enchanter Completed"....

    Not quite --- you're probably thinking of
_The_Compleat_Enchanter_, containing 3 novellas, "The Roaring
Trumpet", "The Mathematics of Magic", and "The Castle of Brass" (not
to be confused with _The_Incomplete_Enchanter_, containing the first
2 of these 3 and now probably out of print.)  As for
_Wall_of_Serpents_, the only edition I know of is hardcover & was
published by Avalon Books (New York, 1960).

David Moews
moews@husc4.harvard.edu
...!seismo!harvard!husc4!moews

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 20:57:57 GMT
From: csustan!smdev@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Scott Hazen Mueller)
Subject: Re: harold shea

S6VYJE%IRISHMVS@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>I would appreciate any help anyone could offer in my attempt to
>locate _The Wall of Serpents_, [...] contains the last two novellas
>about Harold Shea [...]  has anyone ever even _seen_ the book?

I've borrowed the book twice from my local library.  It was in
rather bad condition and looked a bit like an old SF Book Club
edition.  If your local library keeps older books, you may be able
to find it there.  Hope this helps some,

Scott Hazen Mueller
lll-crg!csustan!smdev
work:  (209) 668-5590 or 5628
home:  (209) 527-1203
City of Turlock
901 South Walnut Avenue
Turlock, CA 95380

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 01:08:29 GMT
From: marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke)
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad?

Marc Clarke
Hewlett-Packard
Loveland, Colorado
 ..!hplabs!hpfcla!hpltcb!marc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 11:11:52 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Upcoming from Donning/Starblaze

> From: sun!chuq        (Chuq von Rospach)
> Starblaze has signed for two new graphic novel series in 1987 -- A
> DISTANT SOIL written and illustrated by Colleen Doran, and GATE OF
> IVREL, adapted and illustrated by Jane Fancher from C. J.
> Cherryh's novel.
>
> Both have previously been published as B&W comic book formats.
> The Graphic editions will be 64 page, perfect bound, and published
> semi-annually.  Both will be in color.
>
> [I got cover art for both #1's in B&W wiht the press release.
> Both look quite nice! -- chuq]

I've read the first (and only to date) issue of Fancher's THE GATE
OF IVREL adaptation. To put it mildly, I'm *not* looking forward to
seeing the new edition from Starblaze.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 10:59:15 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Khyber Connection

From:   zooey.Berkeley.EDU!c160-dq      (Kathy Li)
> For anyone who wants a good popcorn time travel series, Simon
> Hawke's TIME WARS have been recommended.  Each book is pretty much
> the old plot of "stick our fearless time commandos back in
> historical events to help "fix" them".  The series is well
> written, with lots of adventure, familiar characters, and panache.
> I like it.

If you liked these books, hie thee to a good used-bookstore and look
for a series of four books by "Larry Maddock" (real name: Jack
Jardine) under the title of AGENT OF T.E.R.R.A.  [Temporal Entropy
Restructure and Repair Agency]. These were published during the
acronymic agency craze of the late 60's The four titles are: (1) THE
FLYING SAUCER GAMBIT, (2) THE GOLDEN GODDESS GAMBIT, (3) THE EMERALD
ELEPHANT GAMBIT, and (4) THE TIME TRAP GAMBIT. The main character,
Hannibal Fortune, and his alien metamorph companion have to stop the
evil organization, Empire, from changing the past. Not great lit,
but a pleasant time passer.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 09:27:22 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Gor

PEARL@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>A friend of mine recommended the Gor series by John Norman.
>Could someone post a listing of the books, with some sort of
>rating/review?

  Here is one review. I read the first Gor book. I thought it was
very bad.  I decided nevermore to read Gor. I have heard the series
gets worse, a mind-boggling concept. Why not forget it and read Dray
Prescot instead?

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 13:31:46 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Gor (BOOKLIST)

Well here's the list.  I won't rate each one, but suffice it to say
that 1 through 5 are okay adventure and just about anything from 6
on is not.  (Noman's non-Gor books are GHOST DANCE, IMAGINATIVE SEX,
and TIME SLAVE.)
   1 Tarnsman of Gor
   2 Outlaw of Gor
   3 Priest-Kings of Gor
   4 Nomads of Gor
   5 Assassin of Gor
   6 Raiders of Gor
   7 Captive of Gor
   8 Hunters of Gor
   9 Marauders of Gor
   10 Tribesman of Gor
   11 Slave Girl of Gor
   12 Beasts of Gor
   13 Explorers of Gor
   14 Fighting Slave of Gor
   15 Rogue of Gor
   16 Guardsman of Gor
   17 Savages of Gor
   18 Blood Brothers of Gor
   19 Kajira of Gor
   20 Players of Gor
   21 Mercenaries of Gor
   22 Dancer of Gor
   23 Renegades of Gor

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 21:54:17 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels

>> One of my personal favorite "Post-Holocaust" books is Malevil (I
>> forget the author's name -- don't have the book with me here).

How about DAvid R. Palmer's EMERGENCE?  (I met him in Evansville
last week at Contact'86 and he's a nice guy.  Turns out he's a court
recorder, and THAT'S why he could write his entire first novel in a
shorthand style and have it make sense.  That's my belated
conclusion on how he pulled off the fine story.

arlan

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 13:11:42 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Review of "The Backlash Mission"

From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
>      "The Backlash Mision" is the sequal to "The Blackcollar" by
> Timothy Zahn.  Like Cobra, these focuses on superhuman warriors.
> But instead of using mechanical means, in this universe, chemicals
> give the warriors increase reflexs and other things.  The flavor
> of the "The Backlash Mision" is much the same as "The
> Blackcollar".  Lots of complex plots, fast action, and generaly a
> "good escape from daily life" story.  This is not a great book in
> terms of hidden meanings, or a message.  But it is great fun.  The
> story moves along quickly.  If you liked "The Blackcollar" you'll
> enjoy this.
>      One side comment.  The title page reads "Blackcollar: "The
> Backlash Mission".  Zahn may be planing to put one of these out
> every six months or so.

I heartily (sp?) agree. Zahn definitely writes good action novels
without trying to fill in hidden meanings or excessive prose. The
ending of "The Backlash Mission" definitely indicates that Zahn is
planning a continuation of these novels. Only question is, when will
he follow up?

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
(215) 647-0440
7 Great Valley Parkway East  Malvern PA 19355
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 30 Oct 1986 02:46:40-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Wolfman story request

From: Tim Shimeall <tim@ICSD.UCI.EDU>
> Does anyone have a citation (Title, author, and preferably
> anthology where it can be found) for the "original" wolfman story?

Probably the most famous old werewolf story is (and shame on you,
Mark Leeper, for not remembering this one!) WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF by
G.W. M. Reynolds, originally published in 1848. Dover Books
reprinted it in 1976, and it's quite likely that it's still in print
from them.

Another early werewolf novel is LE MENEUR DE LOUPS by Alexandre
Dumas, *pere* [yes, the same one who wrote THE THREE MUSKETEERS],
originally published in 1857. English title is THE WOLF LEADER.

According to Everett Bleiler's THE GUIDE TO SUPERNATURAL FICTION,
Frederick Marryat's THE PHANTOM SHIP (1839) has one chapter (39:
"Krantz's Narrative") that is a werewolf story that has been
anthologized, separately from the rest of the novel, under various
titles, including "The Werewolf", "The Wolf of the Hartz", and "The
White Werewolf of the Hartz Mountains".

Also according to Bleiler, Sutherland Menzies' story "Hugues the
Wer-Wolf: A Kentish Legend of the Middle Ages" is the first werewolf
story to be published in English, though he doesn't give an original
publication date for it. It can be found in: (1) GOTHIC TALES OF
TERROR, VOLUME 2, ed. by Peter Haining, and (2) VICTORIAN GHOST
STORIES, ed. by Montague Summers. I believe that this latter is long
out of print.

Last, but not least, TALES OF ALL NATIONS; OR, POPULAR LEGENDS AND
ROMANCES, anonymously edited in 1848, contains an anonymously
written werewolf story, "The Severed Arm".

It occurs to me that Montague Summers, referred to above, has also
written some books about the werewolf legend, though no titles come
to mind. If you look him up in your local library, you might be able
to find some more references by that route.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 18:57:00 GMT
From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)
Subject: In Search of: Books

Does anyone know anything about the status of the following books:

Paul Edwin Zimmer's third "Dark Border" novel

   Locus reported that it was on its way (I'm pretty sure they said
   it had been sold to a publisher) about a year ago, but I've heard
   nothing since. (SPOILER WARNING** At the last Darkover Grand
   Council, PEZ said that it was not the completion of the trilogy
   (which ended with such a cliffhanger), but a prequel to the
   trilogy.  I think Locus said this too.)

Katherine Kurtz's "Codex Derynianus"
   I'm pretty sure this is from Borgo Press, but it might be another
   even smaller publisher. I ordered it through a store in MA and,
   while they couldn't get a copy for me, they said they had seen
   it.  Change of Hobbit says it doesn't exist. It is listed in
   Books in Print, for what that's worth.

I've been trying to find these books for a long time, and would
appreciate any info someone might have.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Nov 86 0822-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #369
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 369

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Burroughs & Clancy &
                       DeCamp (3 msgs) & Eddings (2 msgs) &
                       Hubbard & Morressy & Norman (2 msgs) &
                       Zahn & Post Holocaust Novels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 03:21:53 GMT
From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony (Race Against Time Spoiler?)

Why all the fuss just recently about this book?  I seem to recall
reading it as kiddie sci-fi (when I was a kiddie) about ten years
ago.  From what I'm remember, the plot is:

   White kid lives in white neighborhood with "dog" spot and loving
   parents Goes to bus station to meet girl he's supposed to marry
   and instead meets some wacked out chick who insists that she left
   her village in Africa riding on a hippo to meet her bethrothed.
        ....

   Racially pure adolescents discover everyone else is kind of
   brownish "Standards" and are maintaining elaborate scam to obtain
   racially pure people (why, I forget).  Find that one side of
   Earth has been obliterated, and they were living on the other
   side which had been replanted, etc.

Is this the plot?  Is this the book?  Why are you people reading
kiddie fiction? :-) Why are publishers re-releasing books for the
adult market from their "kiddie" line?  Hmm, maybe I've matured less
than I think in the last ten years and the publishers know that.

David L. Smith
UC Sandy Eggo
{ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc18!ee161aba

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 05:18:59 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Conan books

Can anyone give me a complete list of all the Conan books, in
chronological order?

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 86 11:46 CST
From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Tom Clancy and SF

I have read both Clancy's works "The Hunt for Red October" and "Red
Storm Rising" and I tend to agree that his books should not be
classed in the "SF" genre.  He presents no fantastic or even
outlandish ideas for the reader to believe, nor does he describe old
out-moded technology either.  He describes the cutting edge of
technology....If the US armed forces can be engineering a "STEALTH"
aircraft, why can't there be similar technology being (or have been)
developed for underwater craft?  Subs trailing each other has been a
part of hunter-killer tactics for a long time, it's just difficult
to know when you're behind the enemy.  Damping screw noises and
steam noises and things is all part of the "run_silent run_deep"
theme of the dolphin brigade.  Even the development of Nukes
(Nautilus) was a major step in quiet over the old diesels who made
gobs of noise and had to surface every now and again for air.  I
really think Clancy's material is more adventure/thriller oriented
than SF oriented.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 13:56:45 GMT
From: stolfi@jumbo.DEC.COM (Jorge Stolfi)
Subject: Arithmetic with Roman numerals

Dan Tilque wrote:
>L.  Sprague de Camp's _Lest_Darkness_Fall_ is slightly less
>realistic.  (SPOILER) His protagonist is an archeologist living in
>Rome who is transported to the 5th or 6th century.  ...  He
>achieves some fortune by "inventing" the still and the Hindu-Arabic
>numerals along with long division (ever try doing long division in
>Roman numerals?).

Aren't you being a little unfair here?  I think that arithmetic with
Roman numerals is hard only if you try to handle each letter as a
separate digit.  If instead you break the numbers into multi-letter
decimal "digits", you will find that arithmetic is as almost as easy
as with arabic numerals.

For example, if you want to add MMCMLXXIV (2974) and CDIX (409), you
parse the numbers into thousands, hundreds, tens, and units, as

   MM CM LXX IV    CD IX

then write them one on top of the other, with like "digits" on the
same column,

   MM CM LXX IV
      CD     IX

and then add the columns, as in the arabic system:


    M      X

   MM CM  LXX  IV

      CD       IX +
 -----------------
  MMM CCC LXXX III

As in the Arabic system, you must memorize a 9x9 addition table
(IV+IX = III plus a carry of X, etc.).  Note that the same table
works for all columns, once you identify M=C=X=I and D=L=V.  Note
also that many entries of the table are trivial (e.g., I+I = II,
V+II = VII, etc.)

If we replace the "subtractive" digits IV, IX, XL, ...  by their
"additive" equivalents IIII, VIIII, XXXX, etc, the addition table
becomes even simpler.  (I have seen this notation used in a couple
of places, but don't know if it was ever used for computations.
Note however that this is exactly how numbers would be encoded in an
abacus).

The other operations can be handled in the same manner.  I don't
know if the Romans actually used these methods, but I am sure that
with a little practice the parsing will become automatic: one will
"see" MMCMLXXVI as four digits, not nine letters.  At that point,
one will probably be able to match corresponding digits without
having to write them into aligned columns.

The real problems with Roman numerals are the lack of a symbol for
zero and the varying width of digits (which makes it hard to align
corresponding digits); the finite supply of letters (which puts a
bound on the representable numbers); and its general verbosity.  Of
course, the Romans also lacked many mathematical concepts that we
have since incorporated into our number system, such as decimal
fractions and negative numbers.

In spite of those problems, I don't think that Roman numerals were
as cumbersome as they are usually said to be.  Considering how long
it took for the Arabic notation to be accepted in Europe, I
seriously doubt that L.  Sprague de Camp's hero would have made a
fortune by "selling" them...

j.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 19:58:51 GMT
From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy)
Subject: Re: harold shea

The Wall of Serpents is a followup to the stories published in The
[In]Compleat Enchanter.  The copy I have is in paperback, and was
published by Dell in November 1979.  You might check Books in Print
to see if it is still being printed, or try your local used Science
Fiction Bookstores.

Robert Cademy
UUCP: ...sdcsvax!sdsu!cademy
ARPA: sdsu!cademy@{nosc,sdcsvax}

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 86 08:20:46 est
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: de Camp's Enchanter

The Magical Misadventures of Harold Shea are all published in
paperback:

'The Compleat Enchanter', Ballantine, 1976,
ISBN 0-345-27502-0

(contains the first three stories: The Roaring Trumpet; The
Mathematics of Magic; The Castle of Iron)

'Wall of Serpents', Dell, 1979
ISBN 0-440-19639-6

(contains the last two stories: the Finnish and the Irish ones)

The original stories were published between 1940 and 1954.

I believe that SFBC has produced an edition with all five in one
book, but I can't find the evidence.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 13:14:14 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

lawitzke@msudoc.UUCP (John Lawitzke):

>I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and
>would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to
>read it.

I will put my endorsement here as well (I read it as it was coming
out -- that means that I read the first entry 4 times!!! to keep
up-to-date on the story line). Does anyone know if Eddings has
working on anything else??

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East  Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 02:43:12 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) writes:
>Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad?

A New York Times Book Review article reported that he is working on
a five volume sequel to The Belgariad.  No publication dates have
been announced.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun1.tn.cornell.edu
Usenet: cornell!lnssun1!cpf
Bitnet: cpf%lnssun1.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 86 20:18 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: l. ron hubbard

I would appreciate seeing reviews of _Battlefield earth_ and the
five published books of the _Mission Earth_ dekalogy.  If such have
already appeared on the net, could someone please mail directly to
me.  Are they worth reading?  Buying used?  Buying new?  Even,
buying hardcover?  Was anyone else insulted that the promoters of
_Mission Earth_ felt obliged to define 'dekalogy' to us?

greg morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.wisc.edu)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 86 20:30 EST
From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: John Morressy

  John Morressy is an author who started out with Playboy Press
writing what I can only describe as hard-core fantasy, really epic
battles of good vs. evil with magic heroes and heroic mages.  His
style is very historical, while retaining interest.  A recurring
theme is that man is pushed by destiny to single points at which all
is won or lost.  He has published (at least) four interrelated
novels, in achronological order, to wit:

_Ironbrand_, third chronologically
_Graymantle_, second chronologically
_Kingsband_, fourth, etc.
_The Time of the Annihilator_, first, etc.

this last was published with Ace, which is also apparently
reprinting the others.  The only complaint I have with his work is
that the achronological publishing *shows*.  _Ironbrand_ has
generalities about the events in _Graymantle_, but _Kingsbane_ has
specifics, and it takes place several hundred years later.  The
fourth-published book is in most respects inconsistent with the view
of the events therein given as history is the earlier books.  Even
so, I thoroughly recommend all of the above as good reads.
  Now, Morressy has written two other books, _Frostworld and
Dreamfire_ with Playboy, and _The Mansions of Space_ with Ace.  If
there is anyone else out there who has read his work and is familiar
with these, could you tell me if they are connected with the other
four?  Are they worth getting (if I can find them)?

Thanks in advance,

greg morrow
s6vyje@irishmvs.bitnet (@wiscvm.wisc.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 86 08:47:57 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Hero Discovered.)
Subject: Re: Gor

I don't know why your friend recommended the Gor books...either it
was a cruel joke or you need to choose your friends more closely (
:-), but with a grain of seriousness).

The Gor books are sexist.  The Gor books are degrading to women, and
a bit to men as well (and no, I am by no means a rabid feminist.  I
prefer to think of myself as a humanist; I believe in the dignity
and essential equality of all human beings).  They promote the
beliefs that women want to be raped, that men can't enjoy sex unless
the woman is forced, that slavery is what most women really want.

These books involve violence, sex, and violent sex.  I am not upset
that they are published, for I dislike censorship, but I feel that
purchasing them is a mistake, for doing so bolsters the Gor author's
belief that his opinions are valid and acceptable to others.  Go to
the library and choose a Gor book at random.  Open it at random.
Read a sentence at random.  You are 85-90% likely to read a sentence
represenative of every other sentence in the series.  Do you really
want to spend your money this way?

Again, I am not a censor, a prude, or anyone else upset by inclusion
of 'real-world' things, such as sex and violence, in fantasy media.
They can add that certain edge -- when they are NOT the sole point
of the story.  Niven handles sex beautifully (if somewhat
euphemistically) in The Magic Goes Away.  Harlan Ellison describes
violent acts in many of his stories.  But these works depend on more
than the reader's 'titillation' (for lack of a better word) for
their impact.  So: read a Gor book or two.  Get a feeling for what
they are about.  Then please, tell me: what do you think?  I hope
you will agree with my distaste (no, repulsion) for these books.
But I will not tell you what to think.

Any other netters share my feelings about Gor?

Yours for a better world,
Ellen C.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 86 19:53:46 GMT
From: grady@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: Gor

The Gor books are the only used books I ever bought that I ended up
selling back to used book stores (and the best SF used book store
around here - The Other Change of Hobbit, wouldn't even take them).

Steven
grady@ingres.berkeley.edu
...!ucbvax!grady

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 13:11:42 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Review of "The Backlash Mission"

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>      "The Backlash Mision" is the sequal to "The Blackcollar" by
>Timothy Zahn.  Like Cobra, these focuses on superhuman warriors.
>But instead of using mechanical means, in this universe, chemicals
>give the warriors increase reflexs and other things.  The flavor of
>the "The Backlash Mission" is much the same as "The Blackcollar".
>Lots of complex plots, fast action, and generaly a "good excape
>from daily life" story.  This is not a great book in terms of
>hidden meanings, or a message.  But it is great fun.  The story
>moves along quickly.  If you liked "The Blackcollar" you'll enjoy
>this.
>     One side comment.  The tittle page reads "Blackcollar: "The
>Backlash Mission".  Zahn may be planing to put one of these out
>every six months or so.

I heartily (sp?) agree. Zahn definitely writes good action novels
without trying to fill in hidden meanings or excessive prose. The
ending of "The Backlash Mission" definitely indicates that Zahn is
planning a continuation of these novels. Only question is, when will
he follow up?

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East  Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 17:03:20 GMT
From: loral!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: post-holocaust novels

Peter Farabaugh (pete@andromeda) mentions a few of Paul O. Williams'
Pelbar books. Here's the complete list (so far):

1. The Breaking of Northwall
2. The Ends of the Circle
3. The Dome in the Forest
4. The Fall of the Shell
5. An Ambush of Shadows
6. The Song of the Axe
7. The Sword of Forbearance

These cover a period of about 25 years, 1100 years after a major
nuclear/ biological war. They are set in (mostly) the American
midwest and follow the actions and interactions of seven or eight
very different societies as they start to join into a larger one.
Good stories all, though Williams' writing style of short, choppy
sentences gets a bit irritating after a while.

Other post-holocaust books:

Hiero's Journey, The Unforsaken Hiero -- Sterling E. Lanier

These take place about 5000 years after nuclear/bio war, which
produced a lot of mutants. Many humans (and other creatures) have
mental powers which they use either selfishly or not. Loads of weird
critters (imagine, if you will, a Man-Rat) and people nearly as
weird.

And one of the finest I've seen:

Re-Birth -- John Wyndham

About 3000 years after straight nuclear war, a strict, puritanical
society has been established in Labrador. Mutant plants and animals
are killed on sight, and human children born with visible defects
are surgically sterilized and abandoned to tribes of outlaws living
close to a still-radioactive blast area. Several people have
developed telepathy, and have grown up hiding it to avoid a similar
fate.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
loral!dml

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Nov 86 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #370
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 370

Today's Topics:

                Television - Dangermouse (2 msgs) &
                        Star Trek (13 msgs) & Star Blazers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 17:37:00 GMT
From: kaufman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Dangermouse

> On the other side of the ring...  Baron Silus Greenback is a toad,
> and is rumored to be a vailed attack at the American idea of
> throwing money at a problem.  His main assistant is Stelletto, and
> the other one reads comics ..

Yes, what is that other crow's name?  And let's not forget Nero,
Barony's pet caterpillar.

> Other villians include the space alien (???) and Count Duckula.

The alien's name is Quark, and he is generally found with Grovel the
robot.

Ken Kaufman
uiucdcs!kaufman
kaufman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 21:53:19 GMT
From: drutx!slb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Dangermouse (Penfold's name)

Penfold's first name?

How about: Ernest

(Posted for a fiend, oops, friend.  I'll take comments for
him--flames may get lost.)

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 86 19:17:08 GMT
From: cae780!louann@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Metamorphasis (was Taboos)

nathan@mit-eddie.UUCP (Nathan Glasser) writes:
>If anything, the moral seems to be that even if something (someone)
>is different from you, it doesn't mean that loving them is wrong.
>This could easily be construed to mean racial or religious
>differences between people don't matter, and/or that new or
>different things should not be rejected just because of those
>differences.

This is also the impression I received from the show.  I do not see
how it was supposed to imply anything except love between two beings
of different worlds.

Lou Puetz
louann@cae780

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 01:45:23 GMT
From: meccts!mvs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Michael V. Stein)
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and
>Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship,
>and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes
>he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same
>sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok."

In no way was the cloud creature presented as male.  They made it
very clear in the show that the creature was female.

>The incest ("sort of") is directed at "Miri." Although the censors
>never let it come out that way, that was to be the origin of the
>disease.  ...unfortunately, the NBC head-guys put the squeals on
>that one Real Quick. That was way too hot a topic for 1967
>television.

Assuming this is true, I don't know why it is supposed to be
significant.  I imagine there were a lot of shows that tried to
bring up topics that the censors rejected.

Michael V. Stein
Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation - Technical Services
UUCP    ihnp4!!meccts!mvs

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 15:02:53 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

> The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the tube was
> that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC never
> caught on...

Yes, it must have been subtle.  It was too subtle for me to see the
real homosexual concept (of course that's not saying much).  I could
have sworn that Zeprhem was a male he...I mean she, did a good
impersonation of a man; even to the point of flirting with the
female Kirk had along.

Yes, I'm trying to be sarcastic, and I beg to differ on your point
of Metamorphasis.  A lot of emphasis was placed on the fact that the
Companion was female.  Kirk says something like 'female that changes
things.  He's not a zoo specimen, he's a lover'.  I always thought
the show was a statement on interspecies (paralleling interracial
marriages of '60) love.

Kirk and co. thought it was perfactly normal to love another
creature where Zephrem (whose morals were of the old school) thought
it was indecent.  Zephrem changes his mind in time, but I felt the
show had somehow failed on it's point.  Zephrem did not know he
loved the Companion until she had taken human form.  Maybe it didn't
fail because it was about homosexuality.

No, I still have trouble believing that Zephrem was a woman.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 22:37:42 GMT
From: pttesac!ahrens@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Peter Ahrens)
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

Forgive me if someone has already posted a related response.

In the episode I believe was entitled _Turnabout Intruder_, there is
a scene between the body of Kirk, occupied by the mind of Janice
Lester, and Janice Lester's accomplice, a male.  Lester attempts to
use her feminine wiles on the guy via Kirk.

One is left to ask what long term viability there is in this
relationship.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 86 22:18:18 GMT
From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)
Subject: City on the Edge of Forever

There's been a lot of talk lately about CotEoF and its different
incarnations.  Could someone tell me where you're getting all this
info?

Hello, net! Nice to join you.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 86 05:43:58 GMT
From: reality1!james@rutgers.rutgers.edu (james)
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and
>Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship,
>and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes
>he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same
>sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok."

Excuse me?  A homosexual relationship between a cloud creature and a
man?  Uh, no.  Someone has a very active imagination.  Go watch the
episode again.  The cloud creature becomes distinctly feminine at the
end as I recall...

>The incest ("sort of") is directed at "Miri." Although the censors
>never let it come out that way, that was to be the origin of the
>disease.  ...unfortunately, the NBC head-guys put the squeals on
>that one Real Quick. That was way too hot a topic for 1967
>television.  The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the
>tube was that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC
>never caught on...

I don't remember enough about this episode, but again I doubt the
show itself bears out such speculation.

>...both those pieces of information came from interviews between
>the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine."

I would suggest spending less time reading quotes of wishful
thinking from magazines printed 20 years after the fact and more
time watching the shows themselves.  The shows simply don't bear out
claims like these, whatever the original authors might wish.

James R. Van Artsdalen
...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 20:32:00 GMT
From: friedman@uiucdcs.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The

> In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature
> and Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual
> relationship, and the confusion that sometimes results when a
> person realizes he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a
> member of the same sex. A general realization that "love is love,
> and gay is ok."
>
> The only way the Metamorphasis analogy made it to the tube was
> that it was such a subtle connection, the censors and NBC never
> caught on...
>
> ...both those pieces of information came from interviews between
> the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine."

That's so subtle, I still don't see it, and I'm quite familiar with
the episode.  Whatever the author intended, it sure didn't come
across, so what point is there in it?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 86 23:10 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: "City on the Edge of Forever"

Yet another addition re:"City.."

There was also a character in Ellison's original script called
'Trooper' who had fought in WW I, who was supposed to represent
all that was bad about the depression.  In the story he is a legless
beggar who provides Kirk with information regarding Beckwith.
Kirk's acknowlegement of his dignity as a human being was far more
touching and human than Kirk was allowed to be in the finished
version.  Another difference is that the Time Portal was guarded
over by 'Guardians of Time', and that the enterprise was portrayed
in the new time stream as populated by 'The Marauders' or some such
who were rather like the folks portrayed in 'Mirror Mirror'.  (It
just occured to me that this may have already been discussed; I'm
new, bear with me) I highly recommend the original "City.." script,
it is available in a book called "Six Science Fiction Plays".  It is
a tribute to Ellison's gifts as a storyteller that even the
bastardized version of "City.." that eventually aired was a
beautiful and touching story that was pure science fiction, a real
achievement for television SF, I'd say..

Dan P.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 11:49:04 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: City on the Edge of Forever

From:   hera!sgreen
> There's been a lot of talk lately about CotEoF and its different
> incarnations.  Could someone tell me where you're getting all this
> info?

Harlan Ellison's original version of the screenplay for "City..."
was published (with a long introduction by Ellison, of course :-))
in SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS, edited by Roger Elwood, from
Washington Square Press (Pocket Books) in 1976. Not an easy book to
find.

Now that Ellison is back in publishing circulation, *maybe* in a few
years we'll finally see his proposed collection of all of his
science fiction screenplays.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 16:21:25 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: City on the Edge of Forever

Two people asked me where I got my information on my earlier
postings.  Ellison's original screenplay for CotEoF was published
around 1975 in a Pocket Books paperback called SIX SCIENCE FICTION
PLAYS. I have no idea if this is still in print--I got mine in a
used-book store that had a large Star Trek collection. (Other
Worlds, on Wickenden St. in Providence, R.I.)

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 21:04:26 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek: "Metamorphasis" & "Miri" (was Taboos)

I have to agree with Nathan Glasser about the impression made in
"Metamorphosis".  The question of the Companion's being in love with
Cochrane didn't even arise until the universal translator
automatically assigned a female voice to its translation of the C's
thoughts, meaning that the Companion regarded itself as female.  So,
Cochrane is male, Companion is female, they have a close
relationship, therefore they are in love (rotten logic, but in the
story, it was correct).  It seems to me this could hardly be farther
removed from the idea of homosexuality.

Looking at the previous posting, it seems that the homosexuality
idea was something that appeared in the fan magazine after some
interviews.  I think the question is: how accurately did the
magazine represent the views of the writers?  Perhaps well, but if
not, it would hardly be surprising.

And if the report was accurate, I guess we must assume that
"Metamorphosis" metamorphosised.

And in "Miri", the puberty-linked disease was originally supposed to
arise from incest?  Is that what we are told?  Sounds rather
unbelievable.  Was every child supposed to suffer incest on reaching
puberty?  By whom, since presumably nobody would survive sexual
maturity long enough to inflict it?  If not, how did they support
the thesis that every child reaching puberty would be stricken?

Alastair Milne
PS.  I must confess that I am highly sceptical of the idea of a Star
Trek episode having a moral, for the simple reason that the dramatic
quality was never high enough to give a real presentation of a
problem.  To my mind, Star Trek is for fun.  It isn't deep enough,
doesn't present enough evidence, doesn't work through the issues
enough to be considered a presentor of moral values.  (And if it
were, I doubt I'd enjoy it half as much: I'd be too busy arguing
with it.)  It is enough for me that it was already head and
shoulders above the rubbish that passed for sf on TV in those days.
I don't require it to be elevated further.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 21:17:41 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: STAR TREK and Harlan Ellison

>Yes, I think McCoy injecting himself with an overdose of a powerful
>drug is implausible. Aside from the major medical advances
>represented by tricorders, Feinbergers, etc., even doctors who are
>careless of their patients are likely to avoid equipment that
>represents a danger to \them/, or take precautions in its
>handling---when was the last time your dentist/dental-hygienist was
>in the room when X-raying your teeth?)

I should think quite the opposite.  A physician who is rather casual
in his own habits will still be quite careful in his professional
work.  Notice, for example, that McCoy was very careful in giving
Sulu the injection -- then forgot that the ship was unsteady while
preparing to disassemble the hypo.  Sheer bad luck, in a way: if
that big lurch had happened a moment earlier or later, the hypo
would not have been where it was, and McCoy would simply have
stumbled for a moment.

Staying in the X-ray cubicle unshielded is a bit difficult for a
technician (not doctor, who seldom take their own pictures) to
manage as a careless oversight -- especially since the controls for
the X-ray are usually outside the cubicle.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 86 03:06:17 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: "Metamorphasis" & "Miri" (was Taboos)

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>And in "Miri", the puberty-linked disease was originally supposed
>to arise from incest?  Is that what we are told?  Sounds rather
>unbelievable.  Was every child supposed to suffer incest on
>reaching puberty?  By whom, since presumably nobody would survive
>sexual maturity long enough to inflict it?  If not, how did they
>support the thesis that every child reaching puberty would be
>stricken?

Not only that, but how did the Enterprise crew on the planet catch
the disease?  Are we supposed to assume that upon beaming down the
crew engaged in incest?  There weren't even any other members of
their families there. How could they have managed to do this? *:-)

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 18:58:33 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!ranger@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Samuel P. Ranger)
Subject: Re: UFO and Star Blazers

gb3@psuvm.bitnet.UUCP writes:
>      Okay, so I'm into this cartoon called Star Blazers.  What I
>want to know is is there any other fans out there we should know
>of.  I am also looking for an episode guide and any info on
>merchandise and/or fan clubs.  Also I'm look- ing for a UFO episode
>guide.  Also one more thing, is Star Blazers available on
>videotape??  Thanx.

There are 4 or 5 Star Blazers graphic novels out that follow the
story beginning to end. In a few months there will be a Star Blazers
limited series comic coming out. That's about all I know so I hope
this helps.

UUCP:...!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!ranger
ARPANET:ranger@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET:ranger%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:engm6xc@bostonu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Nov 86 0902-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #371
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 371

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Time Travel (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 17:30:57 GMT
From: spp2!urban@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mike Urban)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

byron@gitpyr.UUCP (Byron A Jeff) writes:

>   It seems to me that the telegraph could be the technological
>breakthrough that almost anyone could bring to the 17th century.
>[description, but problems with power supplies]

What about the phonograph?  They ran on cranks and flywheels.
Assuming you had metalworkers who could build reasonably good
screws/wormgears (and I admit I don't know how big an assumption
that is--maybe you could talk a clockmaker into doing some of this
stuff in wood?), you ought to be able to introduce the phonograph as
early as the 1500s.

Mike Urban
..!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 22:24:22 GMT
From: raster!roger@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

There are some historically useful skills practiced today as hobbies
or sports. How about brewing, distilling (a generally illegal
hobby), archery, or any kind of musical skill? Actually, the most
bizarre suggestion I've read along these lines was published very
recently in ANALOG. (The name of the story escapes me now, can
anyone else contribute?) An Iraqui scientist steals the only working
time machine, and travels to prehistoric Mesopotamia to escape total
war and ecological collapse. He supports himself as a shaman.  No
Nostrodamus-like predictions, either. He simply gets drunk on
kumiss, has visions, and babbles in Arabic. I suppose it's better
than starvation...  but convince me.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 04:40:42 GMT
From: looking!brad@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: time travel query

nelson_p@apollo.uucp writes:
>Economic survival is another issue.  You would need to get some
>money for basic necessities.  Perhaps you think that you could
>engage in some kind of craft but if you arrived penniless it would
>be hard to break in and in any case you would need something short
>term just to eat.  And by the way, do you know how to ride a horse?
>Perhaps you could feign idiocy and hope for charity until you could
>get your bearings.  In the long run, if you last that long, being
>able to read and write might provide a marketable skill (teacher?)
>and I've even heard of villages where the one literate citizen
>could make a comfortable living writing and reading letters for the
>others but there we get back to the problem of village life.

Yes, there would be obstacles, but I don't see too much in the way
of real problems for an intelligent modern man.  (A woman might have
more trouble, although her health and height would mark her as a
'lady', giving her a reasonable chance of doing what was largely the
only alternative back in those less educated times.)

If you don't fall prey to now-extinct disease, you would be taller,
better nourished, stronger and healthier than the average 18th
century man.  Fit enough to get quick manual labour to give you a
bit of money.

After that, there are whole piles of things you could do to get
really rich.

The simplest thing is music.  Even if you have no talent, you have
in your memory some amazingly valuable poems and melodies.  You
don't have to arrange them as rock & roll.  Find an 18th century
composer with technical skills and let him do that.

If they haven't been invented yet in your time, invent things like
electricity, the match or the hot air balloon.  If you don't mind
the ethical consequences, invent weapons (rifled barrels, for
example, or poison gas) or reveal military strategy if you have the
background.  Sell intelligence about what armies will be where if
you know any military history of the era.

Invent fads and fashions.  Raise hemlines and lower them.  Create
new services that today we take for granted, invent the money back
guarantee or any number of other successful business inventions that
everybody knows about now, but only you know will work back then.

There's gold in California and Oil in texas.  Diamonds and
everything else in South Africa. Immense amounts of nickel in
Sudbury, Ontario.

Did you know concrete is much stronger with steel rods in it?
Suggest that to an engineer.

Be blessed and rich when you patent the flush toilet.  Everybody
today knows how it works, but back then they went in chamber pots.
Elevators make tall buildings possible if you invent them.

The richer you get, the more of these things you can take advantage
of.  In the end, you have a staff of the finest engineers and
scientists ready to develop things that you outline the workings of.
You can hire the world's great minds when they are young and
unknown.  Be the patron of the world's great artists by getting in
early.  If you didn't care, and you weren't killed for it, you could
become the wealthiest, most powerful man in the world.  Back all the
right presidential candidates.  You know who'll win.  Bet on them
too, if you want, for your seed money.

If you can't sing, you can also get seed money from storytelling.
If you can't write worth beans, find a young writer like Dickens or
whoever is around and team up.  You're cultured, educated, literate
and full of ideas and admiration.  They'll talk to you.

See you in the past.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 21:13:22 GMT
From: larsen@brahms (Michael Larsen)
Subject: Re: time travel query

>After that, there are whole piles of things you could do to get
>really rich.
>
>The simplest thing is music.  Even if you have no talent, you have
>in your memory some amazingly valuable poems and melodies.  You
>don't have to arrange them as rock & roll.  Find an 18th century
>composer with technical skills and let him do that.

Somehow I doubt that the century that gave us Bach and Mozart would
have much use for melodic fragments of Beatles songs.

>If they haven't been invented yet in your time, invent things like
>electricity, the match or the hot air balloon.  If you don't mind
>the ethical consequences, invent weapons (rifled barrels, for
>example, or poison gas) or reveal military strategy if you have the
>background.  Sell intelligence about what armies will be where if
>you know any military history of the era.

Have you ever built a voltaic cell or DC generator from common
household materials?  Do you know what the oxidizing agent is in
match heads, what kind of fabric is strong and light enough for a
balloon, how to make and deliver phosgene gas on enemy targets?  If
so, you have far more technical knowledge than the average American.
How do you machine a rifled barrel or insulate a copper wire?  I
doubt if most of us could duplicate a zipper or even a paper clip.

>Invent fads and fashions.  Raise hemlines and lower them.  Create
>new services that today we take for granted, invent the money back
>guarantee or any number of other successful business inventions
>that everybody knows about now, but only you know will work back
>then.

These things are fine once you've established yourself as a major
force in fashion or business.  The average manual laborer isn't in a
position to get very far with them.

>There's gold in California and Oil in texas.  Diamonds and
>everything else in South Africa. Immense amounts of nickel in
>Sudbury, Ontario.

Getting to California was no small feat in those days.  Do you know
how or where to pan for gold.  Drilling for oil requires substantial
technology.  Nickel is great for jet turbines; what was the market
for it 200 years ago?

>Did you know concrete is much stronger with steel rods in it?
>Suggest that to an engineer.

Perhaps he would know what to do with the suggestion.  I have no
idea how the rods should be positioned or how the concrete should be
poured.

>Be blessed and rich when you patent the flush toilet.  Everybody
>today knows how it works, but back then they went in chamber pots.
>Elevators make tall buildings possible if you invent them.

As blessed as John Crapper is today, you mean?  Actually, this one
isn't too bad, although it still requires some engineering know-how.
Tall buildings are difficult without structural steel.  Elevators
are difficult to run until power lines have been strung.

>If you can't sing, you can also get seed money from storytelling.
>If you can't write worth beans, find a young writer like Dickens or
>whoever is around and team up.  You're cultured, educated, literate
>and full of ideas and admiration.  They'll talk to you.

It's not clear what you would have to offer Dickens.  Imagine an
incompetent writer trying to sell the story of, say, Hamlet, to a
pre-Shakesperean audience.

My guess is that very few of us, sent back 200 years and given a
competence to live on, could accomplish much.  The mathematicians
could advance the subject a hundred years, but I doubt that anyone
could make a great fortune.

larsen @ Berkeley.edu.brahms

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 14:01 PST
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Stranded in time

In response to the "What would you do if you woke up 2000-3000 years
in the past?" question, I have a few ideas.

First of all, as a 20th century technophile, I am not necessarily a
"normal" person.  I am a computer scientist by trade and a reader by
hobby.  I think I may have more than a bit of arcane knowledge
stored away.  So with this in mind I recall the things I sort of
know:

Electricity.  Pretty simple really.  It wouldn't take too much to
make a waterwheel generator, although it would take a lot of
experimentation to produce an efficient one.  Of a more pressing
concern is the wire.  This would require working with a blacksmith
to develop some decent methods.  As I recall, wire can be made by
extruding metal through a small hole in a plate.  With this
knowledge and some practice you should be able to obtain wire for
the coils (remember, you don't have much else to do besides hunt for
food or live off your fat :-).  Next is the lightbulb.  A simple arc
will suffice to convince someone to help you.

Gunpowder was mentioned.  I wouldn't mess with guns, but would go
straight to grenades.  Simple and with my high school pipe bomb
training I might be able to save my own ass.

Gears and mechanical connections.  Some of this may be taken for
granted, but decent gears and motion controls were not invented
until the 1800s.

Hang gliders.  Sell this to your local duke for his airborne forces.
Check out the grenades mentioned above.  This should earn you a
knighthood or the equivalent.  Be very careful during the testing
phase though.  Never let nobilitiy ride an untested device no matter
how hard they demand!  It's not worth your life (the NASA guys only
lost their jobs).

Bows and arrows, depending on how far back you went.  Irrigation.
Crop rotation.  Cross breeding of plants.  A simple bit of math and
physics might go a long way amongst the aristocrats.  Bicycles.  The
internal combustion engine (ok, maybe a bit difficult, but not too
complex).

Of course, an explorer would be an interesting pasttime (I know it's
around here somewhere!).  Maybe a mapmaker?  Depends on the
timeframe again.

In short, just knowing that something is possible is a large part of
the work.  Most inventors didn't know what the hell they were doing.
Just having an end in sight can make all the difference in the
world.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 16:57:46 PST
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Time Travel and related problems

I think everyone is being too practical for their own good.
Learning survival skills is good if you are by yourself or with
relatively few people.  But if we are talking about villages and
cities...

First of all realize the farther back in time you go, the more
superstitious the natives are likely to be.  Therefore if you want
to be famous (God knows why you'd want to be) or well off in a
relatively ancient society then play upon their superstitions rather
than their intellectual aspirations.

Realize your looks and mode of dress will probably be very foreign.
Knowing how to make gunpowder can be very effective for pyrotechnic
effects or small explosions.  The explosions do not have to be in
the dynamite or cherry bomb or even be very good.  I would imagine
an explosion would be very impressive to people who never saw one
before.  A little acting ability helps too.  A lot depends on how
you present yourself (first impressions you know).  You may then set
yourself up as the local witch doctor/wizard.  I believe they do
pretty well in a society that has them.  Knowing basic first aid may
help too.

In a relatively advanced society, play upon their intellect rather
than their superstitions.  The materials to "invent" should be
available to you by then (timewise).  They might enjoy learning
"higher" mathematics too at this time.

I believe there are several instances in modern history (say
airplane pilots landing in Tibet for the first time) where the local
natives mistook the newcomers as some type of god.  It doesn't take
much of a show.

Al

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 86 07:10:00 GMT
From: silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

Any time between the 1st century BC, and the early 15th AD, in a
civilized area, one could probably make the greatest invention and
moneymaking idea of all, movable type.  I just saw James Burke's
"The Day the Universe Changed" (part 3) which discussed the effects
of printing upon society.  The advantages of inventing the printing
press are as follows:

a) It draws upon available technology.  (Metal casting, presses,
   ink, paper.)  (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchment, the
   limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.)
   (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to
   invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.)
b) The technology used comes from a variety of fields.  One could be
   a metalworker, jeweler, paper-maker, scribe, government official,
   etc. and come up with the idea and have the resources to put it
   into action.
c) It is practically guranteed to make money, at least Europe.  Look
   what happened to Gutenberg.

Just a couple thoughts.

Ami Silberman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Nov 86 0916-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #372
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 372

Today's Topics:

           Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Donaldson & Hubbard &
                   Leiber & Morressy & Spinrad & Steakley &
                   Post Holocaust Novels (2 msgs) & Werewolves

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 14:20:34 GMT
From: ihuxz!rls@rutgers.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Is Brin running out of ideas?

First let me say that I just finished reading "The Postman" and
enjoyed it just as much as the other works by David Brin.  I hope he
keeps up the good work.  However, while reading "The Postman" I kept
having this nagging feeling that it had much in common with
something else I had read recently.  It slapped me in the face when
I finished the book and read the acknowledgements in the back.  The
first person on the list was Dean Ing.  The only two books I have
read by Ing are "Wild Country" and its predecessor "Single Combat".
One follows the other in its tale of post holocaust western US.  Not
immediate post holocaust like "Lucifer's Hammer" but down the line a
ways when things are starting the be put back together.  Sound
familiar?  Also, in Ings books, are extraordinary, possibly
"augmented" characters which also sounds very familiar.

Considering the wide imaginative range that Brin's previous books
covered, is he running out of ideas to the point of following
another authors ideas or did Ing writings give Brin an urge to write
a post holocaust book?  Anyone know any details of why Brin
acknowledged Ing?

Rick Schieve
...ihnp4!ihuxz!rls

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Nov 86 22:44:58-PST
From: SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA
Subject: "The Postman" by D. Brin

                    "The Postman" by David Brin
                           A Book Review

This is one of those few book that you'll want to plan a block of
time within which to read it -- in one sitting if at all possible!
I unfortunately had to use two due to a cold (cough, sniff).

It is probably the best book that Brin has written so far, and I
liked the others.  If you didn't care much for Flipper meets Cheetah
in space (Startide Rising) or extraterrestrial broccoli (Sundiver),
this one is still a must.  Anyone interested in a good, fast paced
story where the hero tries his darndest not to be one is advised to
beg, borrow or "liberate" this book.

***SPOILER***

The setting is America after the holocaust, both nuclear and
manmade.  Our hero is the mild mannered (for the times at least)
Gordon Krantz.  He starts out by telling the lie that he's a real
Postman and Federal Inspector as a ruse to gain lodging and food
from the various hamlets encountered in a search for "something
better"; and through a series of skirmishes with other survivors,
his conscience and an innate idealism ends up believing his own
lies, all the while knowing that they remain falsehoods.

He's got real faults and good points, as well as being compassionate
in an age where compassion isn't considered a valuable trait for
survival, and manages to survive anyhow.

About the only characters I found fault with were the augments; they
didn't quite seem real, or necessary.  But who knows what the
genegineers will have come up with by 2000.

***END SPOILER***

So, read this one and enjoy, it's worth the grumbles given at any
interruptions.

Susan Musil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 15:03:39 GMT
From: Keith Dale <kdale@bbncc-eur.ARPA>
Subject: Donaldson's new book

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but Stephen
Donaldson has come out with a new book - "The Mirror of her Dreams".
It appears to be the first of a new series (makes no pretense at
being part of a trilogy) called "Mordant's Need", and Thomas
Covenant does not appear in it (!).  It is hard cover, of course,
with 658 pages, and the copy I have is a British edition - I picked
it up in London about three weeks ago.  I haven't read it yet (it's
next on my list), but for you die-hard Donaldson fans I've
reproduced the dust cover blurb below.  I'll offer a review shortly.

"The story of Terisa and Geraden began very much like a fable.  She
was a princess in a high tower.  He was a hero come to rescue her...
She was held prisoner by enchantment.  He was a fearless breaker of
enchantments.

"As in all the fables, they were make for each other."

'But their story was not that simple.  Terisa Morgan was plucked from
a life of wealthy dreariness in New York City by Geraden, the oldest
ever apprentice to the congery of Imagers in the threatened land of
Mordant.  Terisa's inexperience and Geraden's ineptitude made them
unlikely champions for Mordant in the desperate hour of her need.

'Yet the compelling sound of horns in her dream that drew her away
from her existing life, and the swirling images in his mirror that
pushed Geraden her way could not be denied.  For Mordant was
directed by the skill of the Imagers with their mirrors, and they
now pointed to a champion who would come to save them.

'The threat to Mordant is dire indeed, and comes from within the
kingdom as well as from the reappearance of the arch-Imager Vagel
and the invading hordes of Cadwal.  Suspicion is rife in the
fortress of Orison at the heart of King Joyse's Mordant.  Just who
is friend and who is foe in this confusing land of conjured images
in unclear.  Somehow Terisa and Geraden must find a way through the
many treacherous traps laid for them, and must escape unharmed, too,
from the fierce attacks of a mysterious figure in black.'

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 22:10:53 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard

From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
> I would appreciate seeing reviews of _Battlefield earth_ and the
> five published books of the _mission earth_ dekalogy.  if such
> have already appeared on the net, could someone please mail
> directly to me.  are they worth reading?  buying used?  buying
> new?  even, buying hardcover?

Does anyone know how many of the Mission Earth dekalogy Hubbard
wrote before his death?  I've only seen the 1st four at B. Dalton's
or Cole's, but according to the above, there must be at least one
other volume.  I was thinking about starting to read Mission Earth,
but haven't since I heard of Hubbard's death.

I really liked Battlefield Earth ... have read it twice.  Lots of
subplots, lots of action, and well-paced.  Unlike most books of that
size, it never seemed to "go flat" or "dry", and the ending didn't
seem like the author just got tired of writing (as it seems so many
recent books tend to do).  Recommended!

kim
UUCP:  {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim
DDD:   408-746-8462
USPS:  Amdahl Corp.  M/S 249,
       1250 E. Arques Av,  Sunnyvale, CA 94086
CIS:   76535,25

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 18:54:30 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Khyber Connection

If you *really* want to read the "Let's change the past to suit
ourselves with the aegis of some temporal agency", then throw away
your Poul Anderson "Time Patrol" series, burn Robert Silverberg's
"Up the Line", and avoid Gordon Dickson's efforts. Forget all about
them.

Then buy, borrow, or steal Fritz Leiber's "Change War", and prepare
for a rather oblique look at time travel and changing the past.

My favorites were "A Deskful of Girls" and the last story, which
dealt with a Shakespeare company playing on the green in Central
Park.

The first story is rather standard, and introduces this collection
and gives some idea of the major players (the "Snakes" and the
"Spiders").  From then on, though... this guy deserves every award
he gets!

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 86 01:05:26 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: john morressy

> John Morressy is an author who started out with Playboy Press
> writing what I can only describe as hard-core fantasy, really epic
> battles of good vs. evil with magic heroes and heroic mages.

I don't think so; his early books are:

   STARBRAT (Walker, 1972)
   NAIL DOWN THE STARS (a.k.a. STARDRIFT) (Walker, 1973)
   UNDER A CALCULATING STAR (Doubleday, 1975)
   WINDOWS OF FORVER (Walker, 1975)
   THE HUMANS OF ZIAX II (Walker, 1975) (Juvenile)
   A LAW FOR THE STARS (Laser, 1976)
   FROST WORLD & DREAM FIRE (Doubleday, 1977)
   EXTRATERRITORIAL (Laser, 1977)

None are Playboy Press and if I recall STARBRAT correctly (it's been
a while) it was straight SF.

> now, Morressy has written two other books, _Frostworld and
> Dreamfire_ with Playboy, and _The Mansions of Space_ with Ace.

As I said, FROST WORLD & DREAM FIRE is old, not new, and was
originally printed by Doubleday.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 09:43:42 est
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Child of Fortune

                          Child of Fortune
                           Norman Spinrad

** Warning: this review contains spoiler material and explicit
literary criticism. **

Part One

"This too is a histoire of that archetype as it is incarnated in our
own era: the Child of Fortune whom we have all been or will become.
But herein will the detached observer shed all pretense of
objectivity, for this is MY name tale's story, this is MY
wanderjahr's song"

And so, in the introduction to this 500 page book, we are placed at
once on firm ground.  This is to be a novel written in the first
person - less usual in SF than in other genres.  Moreover, the
narrator is the protagonist, which is customary but not essential:
recall Melville's Ishmael.  Finally, what we have here is an example
of the type of novel called, formally, a Bildungsroman: a novel of
character development, specifically of the transition from youth to
adulthood, told in terms of the events that mediated this
development.

The most famous novel of this form is Wilhelm Meister, which
established the ground rules and hence may be called canonical.
There must be a central character, whom the story is about.  It must
treat of the evolution of the character in response to external
events, or, more specifically, in response to the human content of
those events.  This is an ambitious task.  The reader must
sympathise with the character, and must become engaged with that
character's adventures and reactions. But, more important, the
development of the character must be psychologically plausible, and
also a response to events that are logically plausible.  The author
must run in parallel two threads, governed by two quite different
kinds of causality.

When this genre is transferred to SF, a new element appears.  The
events occur not in our own mileau but in another, and the author
must use those events also to describe to us the imaginary world he
is constructing.  This raises the problem that, borrowing an analogy
from another art form, I shall call the relation between 'figure'
and 'ground' - the world in which the adventure is set must
complement, and not overwhelm, the character who navigates it.

The first major novel to essay this task is Hesse's Das
Glasperlenspiel, but in my view it is deeply flawed.  SF examples
that come to mind are Panshin's Rite of Passage and (more
lightweight) Heinlein's Podkayne of Mars.  There are many more; the
Bildungsroman is a natural mode of writing SF, since the reader cast
into the new world is necessarily a neophyte, and can therefore
readily identify with a naive character.

Spinrad's universe is the 'Second Starfaring Age', the setting also
for The Void Captain's Tale.  In it, humankind has spread to the
stars and colonised many planets, using a stardrive filched from
aliens offstage, that nobody understands.  There have been social
changes, of which the most significant is perhaps that, in OUR
terms, everyone is immensely rich - just as, in terms of a mediaeval
peasant, everyone in this nation is immensely rich.  His
protagonist, Wendi Shasta Leonardo, is female.  She reaches
adolescence, leaves home, wanders about, meets people, has
adventures, grows up, and tells us about it.  This is how most young
folk in that society behave; they are called Children of Fortune and
their rite of passage is the Wanderjahr, and the debt Spinrad owes
to Hesse is clear.

Well, if the above makes you eager to read the book, go ahead.  The
majority opinion is that it's great, and you'll probably enjoy it a
lot.  Should you care about my own opinion, it is in Part Two of
this long review.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 14:56:54 GMT
From: ihuxz!rls@rutgers.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Anyone read John Steakley?

I have recently read and enjoyed "Armor" by John Steakley.  The book
was published in 1984.

In a nutshell: Humanity (sometime in the future) is at war with a
large insect-like race.  The insects are huge, their planets
atmosphere is poisonous and full of junk that inhibits the use of
radio and radar over distances and their population is fantastic and
attacks suicidally.  Humanities best mode of fighting is to teleport
its warriors to the surface equipped with superhuman "Armor".  The
ferocity and numbers of the "Bugs" makes it hell for the humans.
The story follows the life of one soldier who keeps miraculously
being the last or almost last survivor of raid after raid.  He
suffers from two contrasting personalities.  One is always unsure
and afraid (human) and the other is a killing machine that keeps him
alive again and again.

I really enjoyed the book and have not seen anything else by John
Steakley, has anyone else?

Rick Schieve
..ihnp4!ihuxz!rls

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 12:28:16 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: post-holocaust (Pangborn et al)

   In the same universe as DAVEY but earlier (the lead was a
teenager when the bombs came) and much bitterer is COMPANY OF GLORY.
There are pointers to both Nikki's society and the brutal ones of
the Hudson lake.
   The oldest post-Holocaust work in SF (other writers have dipped
in this branch occasionally, e.g. S V Benet's "The Waters of
Babylon") is probably Nelson Bond, who wrote a series of novelets
set in a p-H matriarchy; I think these date from the 30's.
   Poul Anderson probably has the most-organized p-H world (he's
been quoted that his primary future history is obsolete because
World War III didn't happen on schedule), starting with TWILIGHT'S
CHILDREN (?? that's \not/ the right title but my mind is blank this
morning; I'm not even sure this can fit the history because it may
end with a colony on Mars and nobody left on Earth) and continued as
a background for several shorts and at least one other novel, THERE
WILL BE TIME, before being featured in ORION SHALL RISE.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 17:27:53 PST
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Post Holocaust stories

I'm surprised nobody mentioned "Level 7" by Mor??? (memory fading).
The story includes the time before, during and after a nuclear war.
Very depressing story AND very good.

Al

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 86 17:59:34 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: re: Wolfman story request

>Probably the most famous old werewolf story is (and shame on you,
>Mark Leeper, for not remembering this one!)  WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF
>by G.W.M. Reynolds, originally published in 1848.  Dover Books
>reprinted it in 1976, and it's quite likely that it's still in
>print from them.

Shame on me indeed.  I even have a copy.  I will say, however, that
I am not sure that this is really a novel of "classic."  I had heard
about VARNEY THE VAMPYRE for years before Dover published it.  Not
so with WAGNER.  I sort of suspect that it was pretty obscure until
Dover Books resurrected it.  You have better info on literature,
what do you think?

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 86 2020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #373
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 7 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 373

Today's Topics:

         Books - Eddings (3 msgs) & Hubbard & Lichtenberg &
                 Roshwald (3 msgs) & Steakley & Wolfe &
                 Sentient Computer Novels & Post Holocaust Story

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 20:52:27 GMT
From: luth2!d2c-mt@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

lawitzke@msudoc.UUCP (John Lawitzke) writes:
>I recently finished reading The Belgariad by David Eddings and
>would like to highly recommend it to anyone who has the time to
>read it.
>
>The Belgariad consists of five books: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of
>Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry, and Enchanter's End
>Game. The story is about a boy named Garion. He grew up on a farm
>and is about 12 years old when the story begins. As the story
>progresses it turns out that is is the sole hope for the survival
>of mankind. I can't say anymore without revealing the story, but I
>found it to be very compelling reading.

Well, the Belgariad isn't really the best series around. I'd say the
story is fairly simple to figure out ahead (won't give any spoilers
for those who'd like read the books anyway) and the books could just
as well have been called 'The hitch-hikers guide to <Whatever
Eddings called his world, I can't remember>'. During the five books,
you get to see each one of the countries, one ofter the other, and
about the same amount of space is spent on each of them. At the end
of the story there is hardly a spot on the enclosed map where the
characters haven't travelled.

What *is* good about the story, are the characters. I really like
the personalities, complete with pride, fear, strength and
mortality.  Also Eddings has some great ideas on different
countries, social ways etc.

Summary:

   Characters good, setting good, story mediocre.

On the whole, the books might still be worth reading, though.

Mikko Tyolajarvi
...!seismo!mcvax!enea!luth!d2c-mt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 86 17:54:45 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Belgariad: a different view

For those who haven't read "The Belgariad", and have been looking at
the recommendations that have appeared on this list, I present a bit
of a case for the other side.

I'm afraid I can't really join the enthusiasts who praise it.  I
read it once at a friend's insistence (he claimed, I'm sorry to say,
that it was better than "Lord of the Rings" -- and I found it to be
very similar to other stories of which that claim is made).

The story is interesting, and reasonably well planned, though not
everything related seems necessary to it.  Certainly there have been
few, if any, fantasies written in 5 books which have maintained such
consistency of purpose clear through from the beginning of the first
to the end of the fifth.  The style, however, frequently gets in the
way.  Time and again I'd find an unnecessary phrase that I wanted to
delete to make the prose flow more smoothly, or a trite expression
that I wanted to replace with something less painfully glaring.  It
has been mentioned before on this net that one sign of competent
writing is that the story seems to unfold itself before you, and you
remain almost unconscious of the actual words themselves.  I was
unhappily conscious of the words during most of the story.

Nor did many of the characters seem to me to be much more than stock
figures, saying such things as you would expect stock figures to
say.  (I'm afraid examples here would spoil the story for the people
I'm talking to.)

The three main characters I find moderately well drawn, but no more.
The central one doesn't grow nearly enough, considering what he goes
through; the other two, considering their respective histories,
should have depths to them far greater than anything we see in the
story.  I don't know whether it's because the author doesn't have a
feeling for all the many things that make up a complete person, or
simply that his writing skills aren't up to the task of reporting
them.  But I did feel that much needed exploring that didn't get it.

Finally, the great climax (and there is certainly plenty of room
for, and anticipation of, a *GREAT* climax) seems to fall down and
come to surprisingly little, just when you were expecting it to
reach its peak.  It could have been an event of the magnitude of
Sauron's final defeat in the Lord of the Rings, when all Mordor
swayed and trembled; and it would have been enormously satisfying
that way.  But it never seems to rise even close to that, and I feel
the lack acutely.

Well, that's my feeling.  I know others feel quite differently.  But
I think that people seeing recommendations for this story should
know that there is at least one lover of fantasies who does not find
it up to snuff.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:00:45 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: hplabs!hpfcla!hpltcb!marc@Sun.COM
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

>Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad?

His new series (set in the same world, after the time of the
Belgariad) is due to be published starting early next year.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 17:07:42 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!alanm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alan Morrissett)
Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard

>Does anyone know how many of the Mission Earth dekalogy Hubbard
>wrote before his death?  I've only seen the 1st four at B. Dalton's
>or Cole's, but according to the above, there must be at least one
>other volume.  I was thinking about starting to read Mission Earth,
>but haven't since I heard of Hubbard's death.

My step-son worked for a while as a "gofer" at the company that
publishes these.  He saw the manuscripts for at least three of the
the volumes a year before the first one came out, and says that they
were coming in at a regular and rapid rate.

>I really liked Battlefield Earth ... have read it twice.  Lots of
>sub- plots, lots of action, and well-paced.  Unlike most books of
>that size, it never seemed to "go flat" or "dry", and the ending
>didn't seem like the author just got tired of writing (as it seems
>so many recent books tend to do).  Recommended!

I have enjoyed the first five volumes of Mission Earth.  There is an
occasional slow spot, but I've found that it always picks up again.
The 'flavor' differs a little from Battlefield Earth in that it is
more clearly a vehicle for social commentary.

Alan Morrissett

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 07:06:15 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Sime/Gen novels
From: "Mary_Jo_DiBella.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

In the area of post-holocaust novels, I'd recommend Jacqueline
Lichtenberg's Sime/Gen series (starting with "House of Zeor").  This
group of books is, though, very post-holocaust.  The human race has
evolved into two distinct forms.  Our world (1986) is referred to in
passing as 'The Time of The Ancients'.  The series deals with the
efforts of the two new forms of life to live together and evolve a
new society.  The Simes are humans who have evolved with tentacles
on their arms and an inborn shortage of something Lichtenberg calls
'Selyn', which appears to be a basic life-force.  They can use the
tentacles to take that life force from the Gens (the other half of
the human race, whose bodies manufacture Selyn), and it can be done
without harm to the Gens but at the time of the first book the
technique for doing that is not known. Gens are raised like cattle
and Simes kill them taking Selyn.

There is a whole series (I think 5-6 books) built on this premise
and I found it fascinating seeing the society grow from the
beginning barbarism through the last books, in which both forms of
life live together and use things like 'Selyn Batteries' to power
their vehicles.

Our (1986) society occasionally intrudes as characters explore
'ancient cities' and discover technology that's gradually brought to
their world.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 09:07:35 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Post-holocaust stories

I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned "Emergence" by
David R. Palmer yet. It's got a dynamite (if perhaps a bit
unbelievable) protagonist, is quite well (over?)  written and keeps
you on the edge of your nightstand until you finally have to put it
down because it's over. (even then, the profound shock running up
and down your spine may paralyse you sufficiently that you can't let
it go...)

In case you didn't notice, I remotely enjoyed this book ;-)

I've not been reading sf-lovers for a while, but I'm certain
it has been reviewed numerous times on the net, so I'll
spare you.

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
...seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 05:59:32 GMT
From: styx!mcb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Post Holocaust stories

raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA writes:
>I'm surprised nobody mentioned "Level 7" by Mor??? (memory fading).
>The story includes the time before, during and after a nuclear war.
>Very depressing story AND very good.

Roshwald, Mordecai. LEVEL 7. Signet/NAL P3904 (1959). Paperback,
143pp.  The hardcover was published by McGraw-Hill, but I've never
seen a copy.  The dedication is to "Dwight and Nikita", and the back
cover blurbs are by Linus Pauling and Bertrand Russell. It's a short
novel, and very worthwhile if you can find it.

Does anybody know of anything else by Roshwald? Is he still around?

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: (for now) mcb@lll-crg.arpa
UUCP: ...!lll-lcc!styx!mcb
      ...!lll-crg!styx!mcb
      ...!ihnp4!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 86 00:28:53 est
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Plan 7

   From an almost 20 year old memory: the author was Mordecai
Roshwald, an Israeli, I believe. The novel might also be titled
"Level 7" (translated titles again). It isn't exactly
post-holocaust, as pointed out; it's more about the life in a deeply
buried nuclear strike command post, up till the bitter end.

   Interesting concept: the personnel were there *for keeps*, and
expected to survive as in a generation ship, up to 500 years. The
level numbers referred to depth and function: level 7 was the
deepest, with offensive strike functions; level 6 was next up, with
defensive ABM functions.

   Impressive story (or my memory of earlier reads is better), and
very depressing, especially for the kid I was. Worthy of a reprint
too.

Tony
abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu
ECE Dept., Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 86 16:44:59 GMT
From: milano!wex@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Anyone read John Steakley?

rls@ihuxz.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes:
> I have recently read and enjoyed "Armor" by John Steakley.
> The book was published in 1984.
> [...]
> I really enjoyed the book and have not seen anything else by
> John Steakley, has anyone else?

A few months back I met Steakley at a mincon here in Austin.  He is
a Dallas native who used to earn a living writing movie scripts
(mostly horror or horror/sf).  For these, he got paid on delivery.
However, about two years ago he got tired of not having any of his
scripts see production (I think the final straw was when they chose
someone else's script for Texas Chainsaw Massacre II).  So he quit
doing scripts and sat down to write Armor.

He has no other books out, but is currently writing a novel about
vampires (he read me the first paragraph and it sounds *good*).  I
also sat at the bar with him and watched him negotiate the game
rights for Armor with someone whom I think was from Steve Jackson
Games (of Car Wars fame - based in Austin).

Alan Wexelblat
ARPA: WEX@MCC.ARPA or WEX@MCC.COM
UUCP: {seismo,harvard,gatech,pyramid}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!wex

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 20:27:00 GMT
From: rtm@cbosgd.ATT.COM (Randy Murray)
Subject: _Free Live Free_  free recommend

I just finished Gene Wolfe's _Free Live Free_.  I tried for months
to get a copy and the paperback just came out.

Now for my partially weird recommendation:

I liked it.
Hell, I enjoyed it.

But you (yes you) probably won't like it.

This is a book for those you love reading.  I didn't say people who
love science fiction, fantasy, etc . . .  This is a book much like
(although not at all like) _Peace_.  If you can take a book and put
it aside until you have the time, sit and relax, listen to the story
(yes I mean listen), think, and most of all, not read to much at a
time you might try _Free Live Free_.  However, if you are the type
that has to read something once it's in your hands and stay up till
you drop, you may not care for this or any other of Wolfe's books.

Wolfe's writing is, for me, thought provoking and, well for lack of
better words, soothing.  I'm not a big enough snob about literature
to read things just because someone says I should.  I read what I
want.  Fortunately, the more I read, the more I want to know, so I
end up wanting to read most things that people say I should.  There
are very few things I regret having wasted my time on.

On the other hand, while hungry for science fiction I find that I
read a lot and sometimes go for long periods unsatisfied.  I've
heard some complain that Wolfe is to much work, but I really believe
that this comes form that headlong rush to absorb plot and
adventure.  If you can sit by the fireside and dream away as the
storyteller weaves his convoluted story, you may get something out
of Wolfe's work.

I have his newest _Soldier of the Mist_, but I'm tempted just to
hold it (though I doubt that I will) until the remainder is
published.

Here's one final test: If you can read _Godel, Esher, and Bach_ and
I mean read it with enjoyment and understanding, then you MAY enjoy
Wolfe.

No comments about intellect or taste, because frankly I don't put
much stock in what some people will label them.  Just don't bother
with this book unless you are really inclined, not because someone
told you that if you were smart and had good taste you would.

If you want to give Wolfe a short term and interesting trial read
_The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_.

Randal T. Murray
cbosgd!rtm
AT&T Bell Laboratories
6200 E. Broad, Columbus, OH 43213
PH(614)860-5895

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 23:45:05 GMT
From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight)
Subject: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

   I am trying to compile a canonical list of SF *novels* dealing
with (1) sentient computers, and (2) human mental access to
computers or computer networks.  Examples of the two categories (and
my particular favorites as well) are:

   A) SENTIENT COMPUTERS

   The Adolescence of P-1, by Thomas J. Ryan
   Valentina: Soul in Sapphire, by Joseph H. Delaney and Marc Stiegler
   Cybernetic Samurai, by (I forget)
   Coils, by Roger Zelazny

   B) HUMAN ACCESS

   True Names, by Vernor Vinge
   Neuromancer and Count Zero, by William Gibson

   I'm not sure how this is done, but my thought is for all of you
sf-fans out there to send me e-mail lists of such novels (separate,
by category A and B), and I'll compile and post the ultimate
canonical version.  I've heard that this exercise was undertaken a
year or so ago, but I don't have access to that list and besides I'd
like to get fresh input anyway (and recent qualifying books).

   So let me hear from you . . . .

Gary Knight
3604 Pinnacle Road
Austin, TX  78746  (512/328-2480)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 08:07 PST
From: PUGH%CCV.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Post Holocaust short story

In the Third Best of Omni there is a wonderful story called "Men
Like Us" where some mutants go around preventing the resurrection of
the nuclear menace.  Good stuff, but short.  The whole book is very
good, since it includes a number of other good stories by various
authors, including Saberhagen with a berzerker and Sherlock Holmes
story.

Jon

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 86 2028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #374
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 7 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 374

Today's Topics:

                  Music - Canonical SF Music List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 86 20:04:48 GMT
From: unc!melnick@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alex Melnick)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

Is anybody collecting these?  I hope so.  I'd like to see the
cumulative list.  Here are my additions (plus I think some
duplications with previous postings, but I'm not sure):

New England:  "L-5".  Produced by Todd Rundgren.
Peter Schilling: *Error in the System* (originally titled "Fehler im
  System") includes "Major Tom (Coming Home)" which is not a sequel
  to, but a re-telling of, "Space Oddity", also "The Noah Plan"
  (about an exodus from Earth), "Error in the System" (Earth as lost
  interstellar colony), and others.  *Things to Come* includes "Zone
  804" (aliens come to bring peace) and "Lone Survivor" (man hides
  in bomb shelter, but war is averted; he's stuck).
Nena:  "99 Luftballons" (WW3 & aftermath)
The Who:  "905" from *Who Are You* (the life of a clone)
Pat Benatar:  "My Clone Sleeps Alone"
Nilsson:  "Spaceman"
Elton John: "Rocket Man (I Think It's Going to Be a Long, Long
  Time)"
ELO: "Mission (A World's Record)", "Dreaming of 4000", "10538
  Overture", "King of the Universe"
M: *The Official Secrets Act* (an innocent gets caught up in
  government plots and secret police, a la 1984)
Rolling Stones: "2000 Man" (life in the 21st century and kids still
  don't understand parents)
The Move: "Yellow Rainbow" (either about LSD or saving the world
  from holocaust, I'm not sure which)
The Buggles: "Video Killed the Radio Star" ("They took the credit
  for your second symphony,/Rewritten by machine on new technology.")
Styx: *Kilroy Was Here* (The U.S. is taken over by the Moral
  Majority, rock music is banned, and robots are used to keep the
  populace in line.)
Violinski:  "No Cause for Alarm" (WW3 breaks out in your neighborhood)
Bob Dylan:  "Talkin' World War III Blues"
Queen:  *Flash Gordon* soundtrack
Alice Cooper: "I'm Flash" ("and I'm a hero./My spaceship flies the
  red, white and blue.")
The Byrds:  "Hey, Mr. Spaceman"
XTC: "Reel by Reel" (the government can hear and record your
  thoughts)
David Bowie:  "Five Years"
Credence Clearwater Revival: "Who'll Stop the Rain" (The more I hear
  this, the more I'm convinced it's post-holocaust.)
Cheap Trick:  "Dream Police"

Alex
...!mcnc!unc!melnick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 86 08:30:42 -0500
From: Bev Sobelman <bhs@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

As long as we're all chipping in, how about a not-very-memorable
song called 'I am Your Robot' off of Elton John's 'Jump Up' album?
(Not the caliber of 'Rocket Man,' for certain, but I think it
qualifies.)

Bev Sobelman
bhs@mtire-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 09:44:44 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: sf/fantasy music

In the listing of definitive sf/fantasy orientated music given by
jaffe@red.rutgers.edu,mention is made of Steve Hackett,and the fact
that he has had only one solo album.  In fact Steve Hackett made 5
solo albums of which four are

1)Voyage of the Acolyte
2)Spectral Mornings
3)Defector
4)Cured.

before forming the group GTR with Steve Howe (the greatest guitarist
in the world and formerly of YES,the greatest group in the world,and
more recently with Asia).There are many fantasy-oriented tracks on
the above albums.In particular,Voyage of the Acolyte is a collection
of songs based on the Tarot,the full list being

a)Star of Sirius
b)The Hands of the Princess
c)A Tower struck down
d)The Lovers
e)The Hermit
f)The Shadow of the Hierophant
g)Ace of Wands.

 Note:This isn't the correct ordering of the tracks.  I suppose this
ties in with all the postings on the Tarot that appeared a few
months ago.

jml.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 86 22:10:00 GMT
From: mic!d25001@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

  As have several others, I wonder what aspect of this list
qualifies it as canonical.  It seems to have nothing to do with
artillery or the clergy, nor do the pieces listed seem to use the
musical 'canon' form ( which would have made the title "The Canonic
SF Music List" in any case :-).  That leaves "orthodox" and
"simplest schema" as possible definitions and neither seems terribly
supportable.
  I suspect that it is 'really' intended only to mean 'complete',
which is a quite hopeless task as several followup postings have
already demonstrated.  Indeed whole classes of music are sparsely
represented.  One is tempted to think that 'canonical' means no more
that 'what I like'.
  There are only one or two soundtrack albums mentioned here.  Why?
Are "Star Wars", "Star Trek I, II, etc." "Superman", etc.
intentionally being snubbed or what?
  Indeed, the so called "Classical" musics are completely missing
unless:

>Thus Sprach Zarathustra:
>2001 theme.

is intended as reference to the tone poem by Richard Strauss.  (For
all I know there may be a group by that name.  I am pretty sure that
the "H. P. Lovecraft" in the list is NOT the Providence SF writer
who died in 1937.) If the Strauss work is what is intended, the
title should either be all German ("Also sprach Zarathustra") or all
English ("Thus Spoke Zarathustra").
  Why not classical music?  There are literally hundreds of 19th
century works by major and minor composers with supernatural themes.
Wagner's Ring operas have a plot that would do many a paperback
sword and sorcery book proud, with gods, demigods, dragons and a
barbarian hero in a fur jock-strap!
  Or how about Karl-Birger Blomdahl's opera "Aniara" (1959)?  The
action of this work takes place entirely on a space ship.  Gives a
whole new meaning to the term "space opera". :-)

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 86 18:08:06 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Cannonical SF Music List (Saga)

The old '70s Canadian group "FM" did the same sort of thing with
their "Black Noise" album, which dealt with such things as
relativity and suspended animation. But I bought the album for the
music.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86  09:01 EST
From: PAOLINO%UMDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Cannonical SF Music List

Some additions, without regard to quality...

Bowie, Diamond Dogs (1974, Mainman/RCA)
   This album has a general post-holocaust theme, with tales of
   mutant transvestites, Big Brother, and, of course, the Ever
   Circling Human Skeletal Family.

Paul Kantner - Rhythym guitarist and founding member of Jefferson
   Airplane, continued on far into the pablum period of Jefferson
   Starship. From the Crown of Creation album (1968) onwards, the
   bulk of his output concerns SF themes. Sunfighter (1971) and
   Baron von Tollbooth and the Chrome Nun (1973) (Paul Kantner /
   Grace Slick collaborations) are non-Jefferson anything albums and
   contain some of this stuff. The sequel to his 'Blows Against the
   Empire' was released last year, I think, but I don't recall the
   title.  All selections released by RCA/Grunt.

The Who, Who's Next (Decca, now MCA, c. 1971)
   Some of the songs on this album were part of a soundtrack for a
   SF movie (titled, I think 'Lifeboat') conceived by Pete Townsend
   and John Entwhistle, although it's certainly not apparent from
   the lyrics. The movie was never made.

Dan Paolino

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 86 11:18 CST
From: Wilcox@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Music List for SF

Another addition to the list is a group called "Manheim SteamRoller"
and their FreshAire series of albums.  Fresh Aire V's theme is
"HARD" SF the others (I-IV) can be considered fantasy related.
There is a sixth album out, but I haven't any idea the theme.  As an
additional note, Manhiem Steamroller will be performing in
Minneapolis on December 5,6,7 mail to me for Further Info.

Craig  Wilcox@HI-MULTICS
{...}!umn-cs!hi-csc!wilcox

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 86 20:27:35 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>>  Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (English: "Thus Spake
>>  Zarathustra")
>>  Gyorgi Ligetti: Atmospheres
>>  Gyorgi Ligetti (I think): Lux Aeterna  ("Light Eternal")
>If *this* stuff counts, how about
> Strauss' "Blue Danube" (2001)
> Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Clockwork Orange)
> Most of Walter/Wendy Carlos' stuff (Tron, Clockwork Orange)
> Vangelis (or was his already mentioned?)
> Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, (James?) Horner and the ever popular
> Alexander Courage

If you wave flags of this colour in front of bulls, you must not be
surprised when they charge.

What, precisely, is "*this* stuff" supposed to mean?  That you
regard the work of serious 19th and 20th century composers (18th, in
Beethoven's case) used to enhance sf films as less worthy of notice
than that of a plethora of rock bands?  I hope not, but if so, I
disagree utterly.

Thank you for reminding me of Blue Danube: though I usually let it
pass, its use in 2001 was inspired, just beautiful.  (Of course,
everybody knows it is by Johann Strauss, Jr., of Vienna, no relation
to Richard Strauss of Germany, "Zarathustra"'s composer.  Don't
they?)

I also forgot that the first scenes of the Discovery, and Poole
jogging in the carousel, were described by a number from Aram
Khatchaturian's ballet Gayaneh (I'm thinking it was an Adagio
number, but with Albinoni/Giazotto running through my head, I may be
misled).

The Beethoven 9th hardly got a fair hearing in Clockwork Orange,
since it was at best played in pieces.  Nor do I think, now that I
recall, that the first 3 movements were ever played at all.  The
symphony was in any case much more part of the plot than description
of the film.  You could with more justice cite Giachomo (sp?)
Rossini's William Tell overture.  And, of course, the composer of
"Singing in the Rain".  I always remember Gene Kelly singing it, but
I'm blessed if I can remember who wrote it.

List the Carlos' if you want.  I daresay they've worked for it.
Personally, I much prefer Isao Tomita when it comes to imaginative
use of the synthesiser.  But I can't recall his doing anything for
any SF pictures.  (More the other way around: prepending a
synthesised launching sequence to "Mars" in Gustav Holst's "Planets
Suite".  Got him into such trouble with Holst's estate that the
recording was banned in Canada).

I have never heard of anybody named Vangelis, so I'll withhold
comment.

Goldsmith, Courage, Williams, et al., certainly seem to be staples,
and I daresay they belong in a list of composers of sf music.  I
seldom tire of letting Vader's theme run through my head, for
instance.  Strong, compelling music.  But to suggest that they
belong in a group with the likes of the Strauss'es, Beethoven,
Khatchaturian, and Ligeti hardly seems correct.

>Are you sure we ain't getting a little silly, here?

I frequently get rather silly, but seldom in the matter of music.
Surely you don't mean that the inclusion of 19th and 20th century
masters in this list is silly, so I have to ask what you are
referring to.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 86 16:45:34 GMT
From: calmasd.CALMA!gail@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gail Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

I don't remember seeing anyone mention Larry Fast (or the group
Synergy).  Fast did a soundtrack for an unreleased SF movie called
"The Jupiter Project".  Synergy has done several mostly-synthesized,
vaguely SF-ish albums.

Gail Bayley Hanrahan
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 03:06:03 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

From: milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU
>List the Carlos' if you want.  I daresay they've worked for it.

Just a side comment.  Wendy Carlos is the same person that Walter
used to be.  That is to say that Walter had a sex-change operation
in order to become Wendy.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 18:15:59 GMT
From: rsk@j.cc.purdue.edu (Wombat)
Subject: Final call for SF-music contributions

First of all, a big thanks to everyone who *mailed* along new
additions to the list, and/or helpful comments about existing
entries.  These responses have now dropped to a level which makes it
reasonable for me to begin editing together a new version of the
list--but before I do, I wanted to make one final call for
contributions.

Therefore, if you have additions/corrections to the previously
posted SF-music mishmash list, please send them along via mail to
me, and I'll be happy to incorporate them in the new version.

Cheers,
Rich Kulawiec, rsk@j.cc.purdue.edu, j.cc.purdue.edu!rsk

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 16:34:03 GMT
From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Canonical SF Music List

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>What, precisely, is "*this* stuff" supposed to mean?  That you
>regard the work of serious 19th and 20th century composers (18th,
>in Beethoven's case) used to enhance sf films as less worthy of
>notice than that of a plethora of rock bands?  I hope not, but if
>so, I disagree utterly.

I think the point is rather that Strauss, Strauss, etc. are *not* SF
music simply because they happen to have been used in science
fiction films.  On the other hand, Goldsmith, Williams, and Courage
all have written pieces specifically for science ficiton movies, and
many of the other groups and individuals have written songs or other
pieces with specifically SFnal ideas, titles, or themes.

Both Beethoven and Richard Wagner wrote music that was used by the
Nazis and German nationalists: but does that mean Beethoven is
"Fascist music"?  Nah.

>Thank you for reminding me of Blue Danube: though I usually let it
>pass, its use in 2001 was inspired, just beautiful.  (Of course,
>everybody knows it is by Johann Strauss, Jr., of Vienna, no
>relation to Richard Strauss of Germany, "Zarathustra"'s composer.
>Don't they?)

Yes and no -- I'm pretty certain Richard Strauss was Johann's
great-nephew.

>    List the Carlos' if you want.  I daresay they've worked for it.

Make that he/she has worked for it -- only one person, plus or minus
a few ounces of tissue.

>Goldsmith, Courage, Williams, et al., certainly seem to be staples,
>and I daresay they belong in a list of composers of sf music.  I
>seldom tire of letting Vader's theme run through my head, for
>instance.  Strong, compelling music.  But to suggest that they
>belong in a group with the likes of the Strauss'es, Beethoven,
>Khatchaturian, and Ligeti hardly seems correct.

I suspect Williams's might stand the comparison well -- at least his
Star Wars stuff.  Some of his other compositions are a little too
Schoenberg-like for my taste.

>>Are you sure we ain't getting a little silly, here?
>
>I frequently get rather silly, but seldom in the matter of music.
>Surely you don't mean that the inclusion of 19th and 20th century
>masters in this list is silly, so I have to ask what you are
>referring to.

If I didn't think the whole theme of this note was amazingly obtuse,
I wouldn't bother to argue.  The point *I* think was intended is
that including the Blue Danube, the Gayne Ballet, or for that matter
*Singing In The Rain* in a list of science-fiction music, simply
because it was once heard in an SF movie or mentioned in an SF book,
is silly.  And I agree.

Charlie Martin
...mcnc!duke!crm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 86 2042-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #375
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 8 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 375

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Time Travel (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 15:32:00 GMT
From: utastro!ethan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> Any time between the 1st century BC, and the early 15th AD, in a
> civilized area, one could probably make the greatest invention and
> moneymaking idea of all, movable type......
> a) It draws upon available technology.  (Metal casting, presses,
>    ink, paper.)  (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchement,
>    the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.)
>    (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to
>    invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.)

A nice idea, but a clarification is in order.  Papyrus is *not*
paper.  I doubt its mechanical properties make it suitable for the
printing press.  Paper was invented by the Chinese and would have
been available, in some places, throughout the time period you
mention.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 13:00:57 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
To: looking!brad@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: time travel suggestions

   I think most of these ideas are the sort of thing that only a
polymath could succeed at. For instance, elevators had been around
for quite some time (Thomas Jefferson "invented" the dumbwaiter); do
you know what Otis \really/ invented?
   "...better nourished, stronger, and healthier..." ?? Well, see
how long your nutritional history helps when you can't get sources
of vitamin C every day; healthier is an aspect of both your history
and the environment (are children today still getting protection
against smallpox, measles, polio?  did you? if not, how long before
you get them (especially smallpox)?); and as for stronger, a lot of
us spend too much time sitting on our asses in front of terminals
and so probably are weaker and have less endurance than a medieval
peasant. I also don't know how available short-term manual labor
would be in a conservative culture; you might be taken for a
potential thief if you, an unknown in funny clothes and a strange
accent (or no local language!) went down to the docks to unload
cargo, e.g.
   By and large, music was not a way to get rich. Handel had the
favor of kings, but most other composers were poor---and why would a
composer split with you if he has the skills? From my chorister's
knowledge of music I'd say those skills were far more important to
making a living than originality.
   If you invent electricity, what do people use it for? How do they
get it--- Edison had the model of gas distribution (itself fairly
new) to build on.  Matches are a fairly sophisticated chemical
stunt---probably far fewer people could make them from scratch than
could produce gunpowder. Balloons have possibilities as a thrill
ride---among the idle rich (good luck finding them and getting their
attention) or for military reconnaissance (cf your remark about
morals---and how do you get the generals to accept them (the
military mind is notoriously conservative)?) A point in de Camp's
favor is that Padway fell into a society he was already immensely
knowledgeable about---more, a society that was decadent enough that
anything novel appealed to it, and central enough that one man could
have some leverage. Note also that Padway, being a historian,
invented not a power telegraph (presumably having no knowledge of
how to make even a modest battery) but a semaphore.
   Oil is useless until you develop uses for it---until it's
distilled it smells far worse than coal or animal fat. Also, you
won't have the technology to find and retrieve it in Texas---would
you know where to find it easily?  Would you know where to find gold
in California without a modern map (try convincing an investor that
you can find it or that you know where it is without having been
there---or, if you were there, how you are here without witchcraft).
Both of these go for diamonds, which were found on the surface by
accident and are now intensively mined (do you even know what
kimberlite looks like?). The copper in eastern Ontario is more
likely to be valuable than the nickel in Sudbury, which I think is
useful only in a metallurgical culture.  (I'll allow that \you/
might be able to find Sudbury without a map, but getting there from
either coast would be a major adventure.)
   Business---why would anyone trust a stranger? Why would merchants
offer a money-back guarantee (unless you could become a merchant
yourself and make more money than them by so offering---by the time
you had leverage to do this you'd probably already be rich
(otherwise you'd be working for someone---probably someone
uninterested in yur wild ideas). Fads and fashions---why should
anyone pay attention to you? There were fashions in those days, some
of them quite bizarre, but the swing time was much longer and much
more widely driven---today's situation, where a coterie of designers
say hemlines will move or shoulders will be padded, is a recent
anomaly (and arguably an indication of decadence). Flush
toilets---that's one of the classics. Unfortunately, flow-through
toilets are believed to have existed in Crete in 1500 BC and known
to have been used by the educated (especially in monasteries and
nunneries) in England in the Middle Ages, and anything else depends
on pumped water and on some place for the sewage to go (houses in
cities tended to have cesspits which were mucked out periodically).

>You can hire the world's great minds when they are young and
>unknown.

Are you sure your interference won't turn them away? Do you know
what \makes/ a great mind? If you tried to hire Einstein while he
was still a patent clerk, would you get anything useful?

> Be the patron of the world's great artists by getting in early.

Ditto, only moreso---in all the arts luck (e.g., patronage) plays a
large role.

>Back all the right presidential candidates.  You know who'll win.
>Bet on them too, if you want, for your seed money.

  If you don't have seed money (or aren't a known gentleman), who'll
bet with you? And do you know enough about elections in foreign
countries (even England) to make any good bets?
   Also, all of these depend on \\communications//---they might work
as early as 1800.

>If you can't sing, you can also get seed money from storytelling.

That I'll buy---cf de Camp's GOBLIN TOWER. But Jorian is already a
skilled storyteller, which most people aren't.

>If you can't write worth beans, find a young writer like Dickens or
>whoever is around and team up.  You're cultured, educated, literate
>and full of ideas and admiration.  They'll talk to you.

  Do you speak/read Latin? Greek? Have you read any of the authors
\these/ people would admire? See also objections re music---"simply"
putting the words down on paper in convincing order is by far the
biggest part of the writer's job. (It's easy to tell the story of
any "great" book in such a way that you'd never believe it became a
respected work.) Or talk to any SF author and ask how many people
have offered to give hem an idea for hem to write up in return for
half the income---and step back quickly! (Arguably, SF is far more
dependent on ideas than ]contemporary[ fiction, so you'd have even
less luck in the past.)

As a long-overdue closer, I point at the Bester story "5,271,009",
in which somebody grows up abruptly by the systematic destruction of
his childish dreams of triumph, including going back to his own
youth with adult knowledge. Or at the many SF stories in which a
capable person fails to make it in the past for reasons that are
obvious when you know the culture (and not even obscure things like
eating out of the common pot with your left hand among Arabs).
   LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN is plausible precisely because Calvin is
a military-history buff who also is skilled in personal combat
(aside from vis@athena, how many people in his aikido classes (or,
worse, Bruce Lee imitators, or mercenaries) know enough military
history to be good commanders?  how many history buffs are good
fighters?); AND, he comes on a culture in sufficient stress that it
will try anything for survival (the fact that the local forces whom
he helps to drive off a raiding party are led by the heir-apparent
doesn't hurt, but I suppose we can allow \one/ coincidence).

Chip Hitchcock
ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM
uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 17:35:05 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>Any time between the 1st century BC, and the early 15th AD, in a
>civilized area, one could probably make the greatest invention and
>moneymaking idea of all, movable type.  I just saw James Burke's
>"The Day the Universe Changed" (part 3) which discussed the effects
>of printing upon society.  The advantages of inventing the printing
>press are as follows:
>a) It draws upon available technology.  (Metal casting, presses,
>   ink, paper.)  (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchement,
>   the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.)
>   (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to
>   invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.)
>b) The technology used comes from a variety of fields.  One could
>   be a metal- worker, jeweler, paper-maker, scribe, government
>   official, etc. and come up with the idea and have the resources
>   to put it into action.
>c) It is practically guranteed to make money, at least Europe.
>   Look what happened to Gutenberg.

Then again, Gutenberg was a well-established member of the
community, and had to step very carefully to get around Church
opposition, which he did masterfully by spending years printing a
Bible.

And how do you think the scribes would react to all this? The
position of scribe was respected and influential, and you could
easily become wealthy and powerful with little work.

Now some hot-shot comes around and threatens to make all this
easier. And reduce your trade to one of, perhaps, just writing down
words. There would be no decisions involved in deciding what was
important enough to be copied; everything would be. Since you're
powerful and conservative, you hire some thugs to make short shrift
of the interloper.

And if the society IS ready for it, somebody is probably working on
it already.

The upshot is, the written word becomes less sacred when it isn't so
scarce.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 12:57:09 GMT
From: ethz!wyle@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mitchell Wyle)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

Didn't Jerry Pournelle write and collaborate on a series of books
along these lines?  The Janisaries (sp) series has marvelous
speculations about "normal" mercenaries in a prmitive time,
re-building technology steadily.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 22:43:22 est
From: jbvb@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Time-travel & technology

Arriving between the beginning of the Bronze age and 1600??, the
easiest thing to invent is the still.  Not necessarily the *best*
thing to invent, but easy, and lucrative.  Arriving after 1600,
nitroglycerin is relatively simple (provided you do your experiments
at a considerable distance, and take every advantage that cold
weather can give you over impure Nitric & Sulfuric acids), and once
achieved, remember how Nobel came to fund the prize?  By 1870, or
whenever he invented dynamite, the fundamental technologies existed
so that most of us could get the jump on either Edison or Curie, or
maybe even Marconi.  After 1910, penicillin.  The diode (vacuum tube
kind) would be lucrative too.  I also know the principle behind
vulcanization (sulfur and heat), which would have been worth a lot
between 1750 and whenever Goodyear did his thing.

As to how to survive for the first few months, act the simpleton,
and beg or labor to keep your stomach filled while you learn the
language.  Then, play the bedraggled (but noble by birth) foreigner,
and parlay fantastic (but not heretical) stories into an entree to
the homes of the rich, and then launch your ideas.

However, if you don't understand *any* of the technology underlying
the things we use today, you lose, and spend your life as a day
laborer.  Dull, and dull reading about.  I have somewhat more
background in technology than many, but everything I've cited above
(except perhaps the details of nitroglycerin) is taught in Jr. High
science and history classes (I can remeber the line drawings of an
amazed Goodyear, after treating rubber with sullfur and heating
it...)

jbvb@ai.ai.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu 6 Nov 86 22:59:44-EST
From: Ben Bishop <T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: making it rich 'back in time'

One extremely simple way to get rich in the recent (more than 1 or 2
hundred years ago, less than thousand) past is aluminum.

Hide yourself somewhere, build a generator, find bauxite (they knew
what it was) and PRESTO more aluminum than an entire country.
Aluminum was more expensive than gold/platinum back then mainly
because it was so hard to refine.

Getting to the point of having that generator might be tough, but
the knowledge itself could get you there (pssssst: how'd you like to
make alluminum by the ton? 50-50!).

In that time frame there are too many things WE take for granted
which we could remember or re-invent as we need them.

The BEST story I have *ever* read on this topic is The Cross Time
Engineer by Leo Frankowski.  I am not-so-patiently waiting for the
next in the series, but it takes a polish engineer back to 14th
century poland (10 years before the mongols come and make kilbasa
out of the peasantry).  One of the livelier things he invents is a
Bunny Club.  (I will admit that the characters knowledge of fencing
as well as his incredible mind/memory for facts stretches the belief
of the reader a bit)

Some of the things he invented: shuttle-looms, spinning wheels,
double-entry bookkeeping, BASE-12 arithmetic(!), and other bits of
knowledge which quasi-jealous nations and neo-capitalists were
holding on to elsewhere.

Whatever.  It is a great book and I recommend it to anyone who likes
intelligent people trying to survive in primative society.

Ben Bishop
bishop@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 23:16 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Gutenburg
Cc: silber@P.CS.UIUC.EDU

>c) It is practically guranteed to make money, at least Europe.
>   Look what happened to Gutenberg.

Actually, didn't Gutenburg get squeezed out of his own business?
Also, do you really know all the details of eg paper-making, the
right formula for ink, etc?  See de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall for
some of the problems one can get into.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  6 Nov 86 11:27:39 est
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Stranded in time

>In response to the "What would you do if you woke up 2000-3000
>years in the past?" question... Next is the lightbulb.  A simple
>arc will suffice...decent gears and motion controls were not
>invented until the 1800s...Hang gliders...Bicycles.
>
>The internal combustion engine...

You may be in for a shock.  Many of these notions were around for a
long time before they became practical.  They became practical when
the materials became available--especially high-quality steel and
correspondingly accurate machine tools.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 86 2110-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #376
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 8 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 376

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Asimov & Brin & Donaldson &
                   Eddings & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Palmer &
                   Steakley & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Dangermouse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 86 14:02:32 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

6080626@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>Let's face it folks, Piers Anthony is a lousy writer. The man just
>cannot write. His descriptions, his dialogue, his narrative flow
>(I'm not a literary critic, SORRY), his etc., all sound like they
>were written by high school students (or maybe by a computer, which
>could explain his prodigious output).
[...]
>To recap: Piers Anthony is a bad writer. Piers Anthony is to
>science-fiction/fantasy writing as Kate Bush is to pop music. Thank
>you.

   He may be a bad writer, but obvously writes stuff which is
enjoyable enough to sell reasonably well. (It may be that he writes
so much because his books don't sell as much as he'd like, so he
writes more to make up the rest!:-) I don't think that you should
dismiss someone as a bad writer just because *you* don't like his
stuff, though. I enjoy his books (the first two or so of a series
anyway) and most of the people I've discussed them with seem to have
enjoyed them as well.

Just one other thing; how can you say he's a bad writer and then
give him such a compliment as "he is to SF what Kate Bush is to pop
music"? :-)

Yes, I confess! I'm a Kate Bush fan too!!

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 01:45:11 GMT
From: may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may)
Subject: Asimov

   I have read that Asimov has come out with the latest Foundation
book, 'Foundation and Earth'.  Has anyone read this, or know about
it?  I'd like to know what others' opinions are of some of Asimov's
more recent stuff.
   To be frank, I didn't like 'Foundation's Edge'.  I got the
impression that the author changed his mind halfway through the
book, suddenly bringing in this Gaia thing.  Then at the end of the
book, the conversation turns to something like: "Hey, back on about
page 200 or so, I had just found out that all the references to
Earth in the libraries had been erased.  Didn't you have anything to
do with that?"  "No, none of us have any idea what you're talking
about.  What's Earth?".  That, it seemed to me, was an absolutely
obvious way of Asimov saying 'I'm going to write another sequel!!!'.
   I have also been unimpressed with the way the Lije Baley series
went.  I haven't read 'Robots and Empire', but by the third book,
can't remember the title right now, I thought Asimov was groping for
straws.  I'll try and get hold of 'Robots and Empire' and see how it
went.
   Don't get me wrong, I like most of Asimov's writing.  I thought
the original Foundation books were terrific, and I really liked 'The
Caves of Steel' and 'The Naked Sun'.  But it seems to me that Asimov
is running out of steam.What do the rest of you think?  Please keep
the flames low, I'm not trying to insult anyone.  I'd really like to
know how the latest book turned out, though.

Thanks,
Jason (may@jusc4.harvard.edu)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:25:33 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: ihnp4!ihuxz!rls@Sun.COM
Subject: Re: Is Brin running out of ideas?

> First let me say that I just finished reading "The Postman" and
> enjoyed it just as much as the other works by David Brin.

Actually, I enjoyed it a lot more than other Brin works....

> Considering the wide imaginative range that Brin's previous books
> covered, is he running out of ideas to the point of following
> another authors ideas or did Ing writings give Brin an urge to
> write a post holocaust book?  Anyone know any details of why Brin
> acknowledged Ing?

I doubt that Brin is running out of ideas.  He may well have been
inspired to some degree by Ing, but post-holocausts are nothing new.
Look at "The Peace War" and Kim Stanley Robinson's book for two
other recent examples.

There are a lot of reasons why Ing might have been acknowledged.
Most likely is that Ing lives in Southern Oregon and was probably a
stopping point and major resource while Brin was researching the
area for the book.  He is also a conservative "practical
survivalist" (as opposed to the radical survivalists depicted in the
book) and was probably a lot of help in putting together how to keep
societies alive after the bomb and how survivalist cultures would
tend to be structured.

Perhaps all he did was proofread the manuscript -- this is all
speculation, of course.  The people who are part of SFWA tend to be,
for the most part, pretty helpful with each other, whether or not it
makes the acknolwedgements of the book.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:42:05 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: donaldson

I've just read the new Donaldson novel. I got it kind of to give him
a last chance after the abysmal second Covenant trilogy.

Reports:

- side:
 As usual the protagonist is an incompetent dweeb transported from
Earth to another world she doesn't understand or care about.
Furthermore, the protagonist is such a wimp that she is more or less
uninteresting throughout most of the novel. The magic in this world
is totally illogical, not just antiscientific -- magic is of course
that.  But this stuff is just unreasonable. It's interesting,
though, if you ignore some of the weirdness and inconsistencies that
are implied.  Another minus -- as usual the only normal and
sympathetic characters around are pretty much set up to get killed
or have bad things happen to them -- it's kind of obvious in
Donaldson's work that as soon as you read about someone you like,
they will get killed, possessed, roasted, assassinated, you name
it...

+ side:
 The protagonist may be a wimp, but she at least shows some signs of
escaping her wimpitude eventually, as the novel progresses, unlike
Covenant, who should have been killed immediately after the rape in
the first book.... Also, she isn't a leper. Big plus, that. No more
stupid mangling of English. There is a big difference between, say,
Gene Wolfe's kind of word play and the annoying misuse of words that
Donaldson was prone to in his previous two trilogies. The characters
are in general more fun and interesting, since these book(s) seem to
be much lighter and more comedic than the last ones. One really
funny prolonged joke is how the heroine continues to avoid having
sex with a villain -- kind of like Shakespeare.... Also, as I say,
though the magical premise is bizarre, it is at least interesting.

By the way, I believe it is more or less stated somewhere that this
"series" will be two books (a bilogy?).

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 10:14:25 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: David Eddings

In the British edition of the Belgariad (excellent by the way),there
is an "about the author" which states that Eddings is currently
working on a loose sequel to the Belgariad called "The
Mallorean".Remember Mallorea is the great country to the north of
the enclosed map.

jml.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:28:00 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: amdahl!kim@Sun.COM
Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard

> Does anyone know how many of the Mission Earth dekalogy Hubbard
> wrote before his death?

If you can believe Bridge, the publishers, all 10 volumes were
written before the first was published (and Hubbard died), so there
won't be any interruption in the publishing schedules.

Some of us have other ideas, though....

chuq (not a ghost writer...)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 15:33:47 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: l. ron hubbard

From: S6VYJE%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>I would appreciate seeing reviews of _Battlefield earth_ and the
>five published books of the _mission earth_ dekalogy.  if such have
>already appeared on the net, could someone please mail directly to
>me.  are they worth reading?  buying used?  buying new?  even,
>buying hardcover?  was anyone else insulted that the promoters of
>_mission earth_ felt obliged to define 'dekalogy' to us?

In answer to your last question first, yes! I think that publishers
should trust that readers will look up a dictionary if there's a
work they don't understand.  I read the first volume of the _Mission
Earth_ series a few months back and thoroughly enjoyed it. I've not
(as yet) seen any of the rest, so can anybody out there say if
they've been published in the UK as yet?

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 22:03:32 GMT
From: desj@brahms (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Post-holocaust stories

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned "Emergence" by
>David R. Palmer yet. It's got a dynamite (if perhaps a bit
>unbelievable) protagonist, is quite well (over?)  written and keeps
>you on the edge of your nightstand until you finally have to put it
>down beacuse it's over. (even then, the profound shock running up
>and down your spine may paralyse you sufficiently that you can't
>let it go...)
>In case you didn't notice, I remotely enjoyed this book ;-)

   I liked the original short story (novella?) on which the novel is
based quite a lot, and the second story was good enough to make me
buy the book when I saw it.
   But the novel itself is *the* *worst* SF novel I have *ever* read
(not a huge number, but certainly more than 1000).  I'm afraid I
can't convey the truly awful nature of this book with mere words --
I'm not that talented a writer -- but let me just say that the style
is incredibly grating, the characters other than the protagonist are
cardboard, the plot is absolutely ridiculous and throws in
everything but the kitchen sink for no particular reason, and the
general attitude the author expresses toward humanity is (to me)
extremely offensive.

   In case you didn't notice, I remotely disliked this book ;-)

David desJardins
P.S. I would offer to give someone my copy of this book so he could
see for himself without throwing away his $$, but Moe's used
bookstore was stupid enough to buy it.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 09:04:26 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: Anyone read John Steakley?

rls@ihuxz.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes:
>I have recently read and enjoyed "Armor" by John Steakley.
>
>In a nutshell: Humanity (sometime in the future) is at war with a
>large insect-like race.  The insects are huge, their...[ect] is
>fantastic and attacks suicidally.  Humanities best mode of fighting
>is to teleport its warriors to the surface equipped with superhuman
>"Armor".  The ferocity and numbers of the "Bugs" makes it hell for
>the humans.  The story follows the life of one soldier who keeps
>miraculously being the last or almost last survivor of raid after
>raid. [ect]

I haven't seen others, but if you have read Heinleins' _Starship
Trooper_ you will notice that this book atempts to take the more
simplistic views in ST and really examine the psycological
ramifications.  I thought it was a good book and recommend it.

Bryan McDonald
Univ. of California @ Davis

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 16:34:16 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: _Free Live Free_  free recommend

rtm@cbosgd.ATT.COM (Randy Murray) writes:
>If you want to give Wolfe a short term and interesting trial read
>_The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_.

Or try "The Fourth Head of Cerberus".

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 23:13:03 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: SOLDIER OF THE MIST by Gene Wolfe

In Patti Perret's THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION, Gene Wolfe's
portrait shows a long row of books in the foreground with names like
GREEK DIVINATION and THE GREEKS AND THE PERSIANS, including a
prominent 4-volume edition of Herodotos.  SOLDIER OF THE MIST (Tor
1986) is a fantasy which builds on all this raw material, taking
place in 479 BC in Greece and Asia Minor.  The story is interesting
and exciting and the setting is packed with beautiful details and
the plot is deeply entangled in delicate puzzles, but it's only the
first book in a series and as such leaves you in quite a bit of
suspense at the end.

The characters of MIST participate in the events surrounding the
disastrous invasion of Greece by the empire of the Persian king
Xerxes.  The text of the novel is purportedly the record of a
soldier of the Persian army who was gravely wounded in a great
battle: a projectile of some sort penetrated his skull and injured
his brain, leaving him with a form of anterograde amnesia (and more
than a little retrograde amnesia as well).  By evening his memories
of morning are already fading, disappearing into the 'mist' which
has swallowed his life.  In order to survive, he has taken to
writing a diary on a scroll whose title is READ THIS EACH DAY.  With
his past in tatters, the soldier has lost his ability to distinguish
the mundane from the supernatural, and he records the activities of
the gods about him just as matter-of-factly as he describes his
lunch.  The gods, it seems, are once again scheming against each
other and the soldier is a pawn in their games.  The soldier walks
through the lives of the mortals he meets leaving behind
consternation and wonder, and by the end of this first book we know
that the soldier is being prepared for a crucial role in both
planes.

As usual, Wolfe's prose is a joy to read and his characters are
fascinating.  I don't think this is as major a book as his SHADOW OF
THE TORTURER, however.  SHADOW was much more self-contained, using a
plot which reached a distinct climax before the end of the volume.
MIST is by its very nature a fragmented story, and it's hard to see
more than the building blocks for a plot in it.  Wolfe has assumed a
very difficult task in presenting a protagonist who is incapable of
any action which requires long-range planning...  A minor problem is
that I've forgotten much of my Greek mythology -- I found it
difficult to keep track of the many gods who appear on the scene,
sometimes employing different guises and different names (many of
which are 'translated' into English forms which for me bear no hint
of the original).  The history gave me some trouble too; before the
second volume comes out I'll have to dust off my old copy of
Herodotos and try to get the historical setting straight.  I won't
mind the work, though: it's always been a rewarding labor to dig
deep into Wolfe's stories.

Dig we must,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 15:15:36 est
From: jba@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Aibel)

   Not only does Dangermouse appear on TV but on November 11, he'll
be appearing in Boston, at the B.U. Bookstore.  I just got this
notice that reads (in part):

>Meet DANGER MOUSE, that brave, smart crimefighter, star of his own
>TV show, "Danger Mouse," seen on Nickelodeon Cable.  Have your
>Danger Mouse books personally signed by danger Mouse, receive a
>FREE Danger Mouse balloon and sticker....2PM, 2nd level, Children's
>Department

Jonathan Aibel
jba at mitre-bedford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Nov 86 0807-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #377
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 377

Today's Topics:

               Books - Adams & Auel & Card (4 msgs) &
                       Eddings (3 msgs) & Hubbard &
                       Steakley (2 msgs) & Wolfe &
                       Sentient Computers (2 msgs) &
                       The Children's Library

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 21:29:12 GMT
From: ihlpa!rjp1@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

> How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
> What does everyone who knows about it, think about it?

Well, in a word, Great!

Actually, the TV series (HHGttG) does not exactly follow the books
(HHGttU), but they contain much of the same element.  I do like the
books much better.  Not only does one learn much about inexplicable
and and albeit, improbable facts about the universe, one also gains
a sense as to where his or her towel is.

"Highly recommended for those seeking life,
 a sense of adventure, and really wild things..."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 86 19:02:49 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: THE MAMMOTH HUNTERS in paperback 11/12

Bantam will be releasing Jean Auel's third book, THE MAMMOTH
HUNTERS, as a December paperback on November 12. It will be 723
pages, and there will be a 2,000,000 copy first printing.  TMH has
about 1.5 million copies in the Crown hardback as well.  Cover is by
Hiroko, same as on the hardback.

(For those that think it can't be done, CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR has
sold 4,598,000 paperback and 205,000 hardback.  It was also a first
novel, a fact many people seem to forget.  New authors CAN do it if
they have good product)

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 16:22:12 GMT
From: ihlpa!smann@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mann)
Subject: Re: Any other books by Card?

Thanks to the discussion and recommendations from this newsgroup, I
read and enjoyed Ender's Game by Somebody Card.  After finishing it
I realized that the author had also written another book I enjoyed
very much, The Worthing Chronicles.  Having read Science Fiction for
over thirty years, it is getting harder and harder for me to find
REALLY good books.  The Worthing Chronicles and to a lesser extent,
Ender's Game qualified.  I have been unable to find any other books
by this author.  Does anyone know if there are any?

Sherry Mann
ihnp4!ihlpa!smann
PS - The qualifier to Ender's Game is so slight it could have been
left off.  And probably should have been.  I thought both books were
very good.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 86 07:59:49 GMT
From: mlandau@Diamond.BBN.COM (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: Any other books by Card?

smann@ihlpa.UUCP (Mann) writes:
>Thanks to the discussion and recommendations from this newsgroup, I
>read and enjoyed Ender's Game by Somebody Card... I have been
>unable to find any other books by this author.  Does anyone know if
>there are any?

Yes, somebody knows if there are any.

No, really... In addition to Ender's Game and its sequel, Speaker
for the Dead, Orson Scott Card has written a book called Capital
that is now, alas, out of print.  I think there was also one or more
sequels or follow-on's to Capital, also probably out of print.

Easier to find is a collection of short stories called Unaccompanied
Sonata, which gets my highest recommendation.  The stories are
unusual and moving, every bit as good as The Island Of Dr. Death and
Other Stories and Other Stories.  (High praise indeed, if you're as
big a Gene Wolfe fan as I am!)

Matt Landau
BBN Laboratories, Inc.
10 Moulton Street, Cambridge MA 02238
(617) 497-2429
mlandau@diamond.bbn.com
...seismo!diamond.bbn.com!mlandau

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 86 03:29:38 GMT
From: mende@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende)
Subject: Re: Any other books by Card?

These are the books I have read by O.S.Card:

Unaccompanied Sonata (short stories)
A Planet Called Treason
Songmaster
Worthing cronicles
Harts Hope
Enders Game
Speaker for the dead

Bob Mende
ARPA: mende@caip.rutgers.edu
UUCP: {anywhere}!caip!mende

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 86 03:27:35 GMT
From: 6105530@PUCC.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Any other books by Card?

I didn't enjoy Ender's Game particularly, but Card's stories used to
appear regularly in Omni, and are collected in some of Omni's
fiction collections.  I have also seen a reference somewhere to a
collection entitled "Unaccompanied Sonata" also the title of a
story.  No idea if it's available in the US.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 11:13:05 GMT
From: gareth@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) writes:
>In the British edition of the Belgariad (excellent by the
>way),there is an "about the author" which states that Eddings is
>currently working on a loose sequel to the Belgariad called "The
>Mallorean".Remember Mallorea is the great country to the north of
>the enclosed map.

According to the publisher's bump on the wall in the local SF&F shop
Eddings has a massive set of sequels planned ( as could be deduced
from the last page of book five ) and I for one am not going to read
them.

After stating in the pre-amble that Eddings was using the series to
devolop ideas in philosophy it quickly became a very standard plot
where one race is regarded as inherently evil, to be killed with no
thought at all.

I think Eddings should dump the idea pretty damn quick and write
something else, of course his publishers just love the idea of us
all going out to buy the next five books in the series ( where do I
remember that happening before, was it Dune, or Thomas Covanent ...
).

Gareth Husk
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth
DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4586
Post: University of Lancaster
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 86 04:27:36 GMT
From: umcp-cs!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

Gareth Husk writes:
>After stating in the pre-amble that Eddings was using the series to
>devolop ideas in philosophy it quickly became a very standard plot
>where one race is regarded as inherently evil, to be killed with no
>thought at all.

THe American edition has no such preamble (I for one am glad of it).
And I think that the "standard plot device" is what you THINK is
happening, but it gets changed up in the last two books into
something more complicated.  Personally, I like everything up to the
Climactic Battle Scene, at which point Plot Expediency seizes the
reins and everything goes to hell in a handbasket-- except for the
constant trail of teasers for The Sequel.  I especially like the
prologue to _Magician's Gambit_, which is almost enough to stand on
its own merits as an independent story.

My problem with the series is that after four and a half books of
not explaining, the story simply disintegrates into a swamp of plot
devices and bad theology.  THe plot of _End Game_ is a hairy monster
as it is, and then we have this terribly unsatifying ending.  Also,
I can't see how there could be a sequel of much interest-- it's like
trying to continue past _The Return of the King_.  So I'm hoping
this Big Sequel will not pan out.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 86 07:56:08 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

David Eddings pulled off quite a feat.

He starts out with an epic storyline and stereotyped characters.
The storyline involves the return of a King, salvation of the
Universe, and the death of a God.  The major characters are indeed
incredibly stereotyped.

He then makes you forget about the epic story, and concentrate
instead instead on the day-to-day details.  He takes stereotyped
characters and makes them almost believable while still keeping them
stereotyped.  Character interaction ends up seeming as (or more)
important than the big events.

At the end of the story, he has the reader (and the main character)
worrying about his upcoming marriage and the fact that he may become
a *very* hen-pecked husband.  He does this so well that I found
myself not only sympathizing with the main character but also
totally forgetting that this guy was now a King, Overlord of the
West, one of the most powerful sorcerors in the world, and quite
possibly immortal.  On top of all this of course, he is (and will be
for a number of years) the Guardian of the most powerful artifiact
in the world -- an artifact that can amplify his sorcerous powers
and is usable only by him and his direct descendants.  And he had me
feeling *sorry* for this guy because he was about to get married.
You'd never see anything like this in a Tolkein-style epic.

Eddings really illustrates the point that no matter how epic the
adventure, you have to live it on a day-to-day basis.  I find it
difficult to pin a short description on the Belgeriad, but if I had
to, I'd call it "an epic told in a humorous, non-epic way".

The author's notes state that Eddings was trying to develop certain
philisophical and technical ideas about the genre.  Well, that's
what I think he was after.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 08:49:04 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

I'm posting this article for someone who can't reach the whole net.
Any replies for this can be sent to me and I'll pass it on!

From: Douglas Reid <douglasr>

I have read _Battlefield Earth_, it is published in the UK and it is
excellent. It is Hubbard's first attempt at 'pure' science fiction
and makes an excellent read.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Nov 86 14:21:03-EST
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: re:"Armor" by John Steakley

This sounds an awful lot like _Starship Troopers_, by (I think)
Heinlein.  Anyone who's read it have any comment?  Rob Freundlich

Wesleyan University
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 86 20:32:40 GMT
From: mende@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende)
Subject: re:"Armor" by John Steakley

   Yes... Armor by John Steakley is like Starship troopers but with
real three dimensional characters.  Armor is broken into two main
halves.  The first half is very similar to starship troopers, but
the second half is *totally* different.  When I first read it I
thought I was seeing the biggest editors goof-up in history, I
thought that they had put a totally different book in the second
half.  At the end of the second half, all of my questions had been
answered.
   All in all I thought that the book was excellent and deserves
four and a half stars.  A well written and thought out book, with
real characters and good writing.

Bob Mende
ARPA: mende@caip.rutgers.edu
UUCP: {anywhere}!caip!mende

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 86 12:22:46 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: Wolfe

Personally, I think Wolfe is rather a better writer than Hofstadter,
so I wouldn't make GEB a test for Wolfe. Actually, GEB, though a
wonderful book, was nevertheless a popularization, and so suffers
from all the defects that such books must -- like the reader is
subtly patronized (there's really no way to avoid it), and is left
with the feeling that there is much he isn't being told.

Actually, I am a reader of the "Wolf(e?) it down" variety, but I get
the same effect as a long, slow, careful reading by rereading a lot.
I lose all contact with the story, all identification with the
character, all suspension of disbelief, if I force myself to
consider the actual words, or even sentences on the page.

I thing Soldier in the Mists is a lot better than Free Live Free,
mainly because of FLF's abrupt, offputting ending (offputting,the
favorite word of my fiction workshop instructor, sounds like he's
shooting for a long birdie....) -- inasmuch as I have heard that
Wolfe is having problems with the publisher of SitM, you might as
well read it now -- other books in the series may be a long time
coming....

A tribute to Wolfe: his writing can actually make me feel like
adopting the author's interests. As anyone can tell who has read any
amount of Wolfe's work, he is a Naval History buff -- after one of
his stories I have the strangest urge to go get a Hornblower
book....

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 20:57:17 GMT
From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight)
Subject: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

Clarification of earlier posting

1)  No robot novels, please; just non-ambulatory computers; and
2)  No short works, just novels.

Gary Knight
3604 Pinnacle Road
Austin, TX  78746  (512/328-2480).

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 23:06:28 GMT
From: lewey!evp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ed Post)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

> I am trying to compile a canonical list of SF *novels* dealing
> with (1) sentient computers, and (2) human mental access to
> computers or computer networks.....

Some of the classics:

   RUR (Rossum's Universal Robots), Carel Capek(?)
   Asimov's entire robot series
   When Harlie was One, David Gerrold
   The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Robert Heinlein
   Colossus (sp?), The Forbin Project

Ed Post   {hplabs,voder,pyramid}!lewey!evp
American Information Technology
10201 Torre Ave. Cupertino CA 95014
(408)252-8713

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  6 Nov 86 11:07:33 est
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Children's Library

When I have to have a good book, and there's nothing appealing on my
usual shelves, I sometimes pay a visit to the children's library.
The best SF/F books written for children are almost as good as the
best written for adults.  Not quite: originality is considered less
of a virtue in children's books, and you're more likely to come away
with an enjoyable light read than with a thought-provoking one.
Still, the best are very good indeed.

"So You Want to Be a Wizard"--Diane Duane

This is recognizably a book by the author of "The Door into Fire".
The problem here, too: making the best of a world into whose making
death and entropy have somehow crept.  Here on earth, much of that
responsibility falls upon wizards, including two youngsters who have
been selected (by their wizard's manuals) as candidate wizards.
They must travel into an alternate-world Manhattan--a dark and
dangerous city whose streets are patrolled by predatory taxis
(alternate?) and confront the Enemy (closely modelled upon Lucifer)
to prevent a major mischief.  The book is written with delightful
humor.  The sequel, "Deep Wizardry", is even better.

"Alanna:  The First Adventure"--Tamora Pierce

The story takes place in a fantasy world (magic work, the gods
meddle) which is a bit too medieval to be a 'generic fantasy'
setting.  The plot elements are quite generic: Ten-year-old Alanna,
being sent for sorcerous training, would rather be a knight; her
twin brother, being sent to court to be a page and later a squire,
wants to be a sorceror.  They switch.  With so standard a start, the
only thing that could rescue the book is superb writing.  It is
rescued.

A problem with children's books is that they are less likely than
their adult counterparts to make the transition to paperback.  They
can, however, be found in the library.  I'm not suggesting that
these are good books for some children you may want to interest in
the genre.  I'm suggesting that the next time you're in need of a
good light read, *you* head to the children's library and check
these out.

If you enjoy these, two still very enjoyable books written for yet
younger audiences (and hence even more light-weight) are:

The Rebel Witch--Jack Lovejoy
The Dancing Meteor--Anne Mason

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Nov 86 0823-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #378
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 378

Today's Topics:

            Films - Star Wars (3 msgs) & Counter Earth &
                    Buckaroo Banzai & Star Trek (2 msgs),
            Television - Star Blazers (2 msgs) &
                    New Show & ALF & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 86 14:30:02 PDT
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Star Wars continues

c8-2cc@seymour.Berkeley.EDU (Cindy W. Yan) writes:
>... the first trilogy is supposed to be a recounting of what
>happened between Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.
>That's about all I know. It's supposed to tell, in greater detail
>than in "Jedi", how Anakin came to be with the Dark Side. BTW, the
>last trilogy, beginning with Star Wars VI, is supposed to continue
>the adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han and the gang.  It's supposed
>to pick up after "Jedi", but I don't know if it will ever be made.
>I hope that helps.

I vaguely remember reading about this in "The L.A. Weekly" +5 years
ago where George Lucas was spilling the plot of the Star Wars story.
From my faded core memory....

Each trilogy happened many hundreds of years apart of each other.

The first trilogy dealt with the rising of the First Empire and the
organization of the Jedi Knights.

The third trilogy dealt with the outcome (another galactic empire)
of the second trilogy.

***** Mild Spoiler Follows *****

What really ties the trilogies together are the droids, C3PO and
R2D2.  We find in the last trilogy that they are telling the whole
story.  They are the only characters that have survived.  Luke, Leia
and the rest should only appear in the second trilogy.  Of course
this is Hollywood and your mileage may vary so the story may have
been changed again.  It will be interesting to see how 'primitive'
technology will be in the first trilogy compared to the second
trilogy.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 86 09:29:36 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Star Wars I
From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

c8-2cc@seymour.Berkeley.EDU (Cindy W. Yan) writes:

>BTW, the last trilogy, beginning with Star Wars VI, is supposed to
>continue the adventures of Luke, Leia, and Han and the gang...

  I wonder if the strange intended order of production
(4,5,6,1,2,3,7,8,9) is to allow the actors who played in the first
trilogy to age a bit, so that they will really appear older in the
last trilogy? It would be nice to see the same faces (fur,
carbonite...) that we've grown used to, rather than casting new
actors and pretending to the audience that they're just older
versions of the characters.

Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 Oct 86 14:45:54-EST
From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet)
Subject: Star Wars Trilogies

Hi all.

     This may be old news, but people have been asking about the
Star Wars Trilogies.  The way I understood it, the entire saga was
comprised of three trilogies: The first is the Clone Wars trilogy
which tells of the formation of the Jedi Knights and the training of
Luke's father and Ben by Yoda, etc.  The third movie in this set
should presumably end with Leia, CP3O, etc. being chased (thus
leading into `A New Hope').  I hear that the plots for this triology
are currently in the works ....
     The second trilogy is the Star Wars trilogy, and we all know
what that's about.  :-)
     I have not heard much about the third trilogy, only that it is
supposed to be made last and that it tells of the further adventures
of Luke as teacher and Leia as pupil.  (No Empire in this one).

Well, that's what I hear (don't yell at me alot if I'm wrong :-)

Eric J. Simon
Wesleyan University
wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn%wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa
Box 1269 Wesleyan Station Middletown, CT  06457  (203)347-7325

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 16:48:25 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Counter-earth (was Re: Theme Story Request)

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>>In one movie, an astronaut heads in some funky orbit around the
>>sun.  He get's back too soon.  We eventually realize that there is
>>another planet on the far side of the sun that is exactly the same
>>as ours, but flipped, right for left. ....
>
>I want the name of that movie!!  Anybody remember?

This sounds like the Gerry Anderson (Yes him again) film released
here with the title "doppelganger" (sp?)

Bob Gray.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 30 Oct 86 13:56:39-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Fan Club query

I work for Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, and as a random hack we
have made t-shirts and cups with our logo, but the word
"Schlumberger" replaced by "Yoyodyne".  Anyway, the tshirt
enterprise is now in danger of showing a profit (I don't run the cup
enterprise so I don't know its financial state), and it seems to me
that I should do something appropriately silly with the money.  So I
got the idea that maybe I could have the lab join the Buckaroo
Banzai Fan Club which I seem to recall actually exists.  Anyone know
the address and how much various options cost?

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 2 Nov 86 16:34:25-CST
From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re: The Sad State of Proofreading (or: kill the continuity
Subject: person)

This would be the equivalent of a proofreading error in film:

Did anybody catch the nice, fullscreen profile of Dame Judith
Anderson, SANS POINTS, near the end of STIV???  I thought I was
high, but on subsequent viewings, no, they really aren't there.
This was much more apparent than the little glitch near the end of
ST-TMP where we notice that Spock and McCoy have switched their Davy
Crockett jackets because the color on the little insignia(e?)
miracululously switch places.  Plenty of people have remarked about
this.

Regards,

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 22:55:50 GMT
From: reed!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Trailer for Star Trek IV

spock@hope.UUCP (Chris Ambler) writes:
>> jason@hpcnoe.UUCP (Jason Zions) writes:
>>>2) I just saw a trailer last night; the damn thing is just one
>>>spoiler after another. I mean, shoot, they told the whole story
>>>in 1 or two minutes of film! I was more than a little angry.
>> YES YES YES!  I saw this trailer recently and it does indeed give
>> away the whole movie!!!  I have been warning off people I know
>> ever since.
>Well, I saw it last week too, and, be reasonable, I wouldn't have
>missed it for the world. To be perfectly honest, if I had the
>opportunity to see it and missed it, I'd die of curiosity. It
>didn't reveal THAT much, and we all know (knew) what it revealed as
>rumours, anyway.

I agree with Chris (Spock?[who is this guy?]).  I thought the
preview was about average as far as spoiler-value goes.  It merely
confirmed various rumors which practically everybody was aware of,
and anybody who wasn't aware of them probably doesn't much care.  I
noticed that, at least in the trailer I saw, that McCoy had no
"lines", and was shown only in the background, or in infinitesimally
short flashes.  Does anybody have any idea why that is?  I assume
that the preview featured Kirk and Spock to such a great extent
because the average mundane would recognize them before anyone else.

MILD SPOILER

Also, there was an extremely short clip which showed some piece of
(I think) fabric dropping onto a lawn or field, and the ground
subsequently cracking as if an irregularly shaped elevator were
"going down".  Now, I am familiar with almost the entire plot, but
cannot figure out where this fits in.  I seem to have gotten the
impression that this occured "here" in the 1980s, but it doesn't
really fit in with anything I am aware of.  Any ideas?

Timothy R. Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 86 12:55 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: Star Blazers

Star Blazers is an American version of the classic Japanese
Animation series Space Cruiser Yamato.  The two TV series that are
commonly seen in this country are just a small chunk of everything
that exists for this remarkable series.
   The series began in 1974 and was fairly popular, but after the
rekindled interest in Space Opera caused by Star Wars, the first
series was re-edited into a feature film and its success was
overwhelming.  It was so popular that a second feature film,
"Farewell Space Cruiser Yamato"(aka "Arrivederci Yamato") was made.
In this, the bulk of the cast, including the hero and one of the
villains give their lives and the Yamato to save the earth.  This
was met with an incredibly emotional response on the part of
Japanese fans,, and to continue milking Yamato for all it was worth,
the producers made the second series of episodes that roughly
followed the second movie yet allowed the characters to survive.
After that, came a TV movie called "Yamato: The New Journey" and
ANOTHER theatrical film.  (An odd aside: that feature, "Be Forever
Yamato" started off in a normal aspect ratio, but half way through
the film, it expanded to full cinemascope!) After that, came the
Third TV series which was largely disappointing owing to the fact
that it was designed for 52 episodes but only 25 were made.
Finally, 1983 saw the release of "Final Yamato, the Concluding
Chapter" which once again saw the Yamato destroyed.  The latest
'talk' is that a NEW film, "Desslock's War" will be released real
soon now that covers the adventures of the Yamato's most popular
villain-turned-hero.
   The series is remarkable.  It has been pointed out that there is
more genuine humanity and drama in the 95 minute "Yamato the New
Journey: " than in the entirety of the Star Wars trilogy.
   Finally, the Third Series HAS been translated and WILL be
available in various cities throughout the country.  I have seen 2
episodes and be warned: The voices are all different than the
original American Cast.

Sayonarra,
Dan P. Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 15:59:37 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Espion--Guy Espion)
Subject: Re: Star Blazers

DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>   Finally, the Third Series HAS been translated and WILL be
>available in various cities throughout the country.  I have seen 2
>episodes and be warned: The voices are all different than the
>original American Cast.

Who's doing the translation? Do you know? It could make ALL the
difference.  I saw a translation of Captain Harlock by Ziv,
Internat'l where Harlock was played by John Wayne (or some
sound-alike), the kid was a brat, and the human female was a priss.
(Sorry I can't remember their names, it's been a few years.)

The same applies to any other Japanimation shows. Anybody know?
(Also, anyone know when any are shown in the Bay Area or NYC?)  TIA.

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 14:47:19 GMT
From: jaffe@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Saul)
Subject: The Return of.....

Has anyone else out there noticed how bad people who write
television shows are hurting for new ideas?  I mean let's face it,
some of the shows lately are just plain terrible.  I got sick to my
stomach watching ALF which seemed to be nothing more than a
re-hashing of Mork but with a puppet instead of a clever comedian.

Then there are the various attempts to revive old shows that were
hits back in the '50s and '60s.  Remember the failed revival of I
Dream of Jeannie with a black male as the genie?? (I can't remember
the name of the show).

Well now they have a new one.  One of the networks (I believe CBS
because they had the rights to the original) has announced that one
of their January replacement shows will be starring Ray Walston and
will be called.... "My Favorite Martians"!!!!!  The show will be
without Bill Bixby and will be about a group of martians who have
come to earth for a visit with "Uncle" Martin who had decided to
remain on earth.  After all his attempts to get back home in the
original, I think this is silly already and I haven't even seen the
first episode!!

Saul Jaffe
Rutgers University
ARPA: Jaffe@Red.rutgers.edu or Jaffe@elbereth.rutgers.edu
UUCP: elbereth!jaffe

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 86 06:21:39 GMT
From: uokmax!dewhitne@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David E. Whitney)
Subject: Re: The Return of.....

>...I got sick of watching ALF....rewritten Mork with puppet.

Yes, I too must express disappointment over the lack of good writing
for ALF.  They should have allowed the writers who prepared the
midsummer promotionals for the series hack at a few of the episodes
as opposed to the ones they've aired.  It's not that they've been
that *bad*, necessarily, it just seems as though they could have
been better.  Certainly *funnier*.  Almost seems as though NBC is
going against the grain of its own philosophy with ALF -- taking a
risk on an off-beat show, but its writers aren't attempting anything
that hasn't been used before (in variations) on other shows.  Seems
like ALF is, right now, a case of missing potential--but I'll hold
out hope.  It's a good premise, and if we get rid of most of the
banal family he's imprisoned with, it'd be a great start...

David E. Whitney
University of Oklahoma

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 86 12:58:09 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Taboos in Star Trek (was ST:The Next Gen.)

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) says:
>>     Waitaminute.  I remember most of these, but when did they do
>>anything about homosexuality or incest?  The former was rumored by
>>a small clique of fans (the ones who conjectured a love affair
>>between Kirk and Spock), but it was never specifically addressed.
>
>In "Metamorphasis," the relationship between the cloud-creature and
>Zephram was intended to be a parallel to a homosexual relationship,
>and the confusion that sometimes results when a person realizes
>he/she may experiencing feelings of love to a member of the same
>sex. A general realization that "love is love, and gay is ok."

   Hmmm.  If the "love is love" theme was intended, then they failed
miserably at developing it.  Near the end of the episode, Kirk makes
a long-winded speech about how it's *impossible* for the creature to
love Zefram, because they "can't join."  The creature is forced to
occupy Nancy's body to get Zefram to accept her.  If a reference to
homosexual relations was intended, then it was a statement *against*
them, not saying that "gay is ok."

>...both those pieces of information came from interviews between
>the various authors of the episodes and a "trekkie fanzine."

   One of the fanzines that print the Kirk/Spock love stories,
maybe?  I'm not trying to flame-- if Star Trek writers had the
courage to defend gay rights (even cryptically), my hat's off to
them.  I just think it's a case of reading more into the dialogue
than is there.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Nov 86 0828-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #379
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 379

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Zelazny (9 msgs) &
                        Sentient Computers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 03:16:34 GMT
From: edsel!dxa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (DR Anolick)
Subject: Foundation and Earth

I just finished reading Foundation and Earth, Asimov's latest
addition to the Foundation Universe.  I do not feel qualified to
critique it, because my interest is such that I am too involved to
find much wrong with any of the series.  You see the original
trilogy is what hooked me on SF, and I am therefore not impartial.

I certainly saw flaws in Robots and Dawn, Robots and Empire,
Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth.  However, I enjoyed them
all, and felt them up to the standards of the original trilogy and
the original Lije Baley stories.

I will say that if you feel as I do about the books mentioned above,
that you will enjoy Foundation and Earth.

Minor and major spoilers follow, if you care at all about spoilers,
stop here.  In particular the Major Spoiler discusses the ending of
the book.

** START MINOR SPOILER **

If you have been aware that Asimov has been using his later works to
tie together all the Lije Baley stories with the Foundation stories,
than I can say that this story, Foundation and Earth, completes that
task.

I won't say how, although it should be easy to guess.

The following major spoiler discusses the ending of the book, you
have been warned twice!

** START MAJOR SPOILER **

Asimov did it to us again.  He set up an obvious sequel.  The
annoying thing is that I was not sure that he had done so at first.
And part of me is still not sure.

I am curious if anyone else came to the same conclusion that I did.
(Some may say it was obvious) The conclusion?  That Fallom may be a
representative of non-human invaders in the Milky Way.  Since Daneel
will merge with Fallom, and Galaxia is far from completed, humanity
is now faced with exactly what Trevise surmised, destruction by
being divided and conquered.

There are some very obvious, and some subtle clues that lead to this
conclusion.  The thing that made it a shock to me, was that the
realization of it came only from the last two paragraphs of the
book.  I was so sure that this time, the story was going to end,
without an obvious continuation.

Thats why I'm curious what other people felt about this ending.  Do
let me know.

David Roy Anolick
..ihnp4!edsel!dxa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 30 Oct 1986 16:10 CDT
From: Steve Besalke  <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: "Steven R. Balzac" writes:

>   Remember what Oberon says in Courts of Caos: it is possible to
>exert one's will on the timestream of a shadow making time flow
>faster or slower as desired.

  This must not be common knowledge to descendants of Oberon.  If it
is, then why did Rinaldo want to go to a specific shadow where time
flows "so much faster that I'll (Rinaldo speaking) be healed up in a
day or so in terms of local time at the Keep."  If he knew about
influencing time flow, he could have went to any shadow--just as
long as it was far enough from Amber to so influencing time would
not be as difficult as it would be when closer to Amber.

Steve Besalke <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 14:51:26 PST (Friday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: AMBER - been around how long?

   My impression is Dworkin build Amber just a couple thousand years
before the stories take place.  Two of the first sons of Oberon
tried to take over and died.  Benedict studied war for one or two
thousand years.  There's no mention of millions and millions of
years.
   Does this mean earth was created five or ten thousand years ago?
Or just before Amber, our earth floated around and afterwards people
started populating it?  Another option is when Amber was first
created time really ran wild in the various shadows, sometimes going
a billion times faster than the time in Amber.  This would allow our
universe to be billions and billions of years old.
   Oberon tells Corwin it is possible to affect the rate of time in
a shadow.  Could taking the jewel through the pattern allow someone
to affect time in many or all shadows?  It would be tempting to find
a fast shadow and speed it up.
   If Corwin spent several centuries on Earth, could he have
children and not know about it?  Oberon has at least one son that
the rest of the world didn't know about.  Many children may have
even died for the healing factor may only come after walking the
patten.
   All these questions.  :-)

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 21:15:06 GMT
From: lyles@tybalt.caltech.edu (Lyle N. Scheer)
Subject: Re: AMBER - been around how long?

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>  My impression is Dworkin build Amber just a couple thousand years
>before the stories take place.  Two of the first sons of Oberon
>tried to take over and died.  Benedict studied war for one or two
>thousand years.  There's no mention of millions and millions of
>years.

Sounds right to me.

>  Does this mean earth was created five or ten thousand years ago?

No, it has nothing to do with it! There has been no mention made in
the books that the nature of shadow has changed over time. Thus
Dworkin could have gone anywhere he chose, just as Corwin can,
though what wonderful powers Dworkin has as the creator of the
universe that Corwin lacks we can only guess.

Anyway, surely Dworkin could go to a Shadow that included 5 billion
people who thought they had some long involved history. After all,
can you prove to me that the universe wasn't created 15 minutes ago,
with ready-made fossils and people with ready-made memories? That's
what happened the first time anyone went to Earth, if you believe
the Amberites-create- Shadow theory (and probably Corwin was the
one, unless Dworkin did some marvelous traversal of all the infinite
shadows in finite time, something Corwin did not do when he created
his universe).

Allen Knutson

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 86 00:57:01 GMT
From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: Amber

   In *Blood of Amber*, Fiona and Merlin argue over what is
responsible for the scary events of late.  Fiona thinks the power
resident in Corwin's new Pattern is screwing things up, but Merlin
suggests that the fallout from the war with Chaos hasn't settled
down yet.
   There is another possibility.  In *The Courts of Chaos*, Brand
tells Corwin that a new pattern (created by Brand) could not be the
same as the old Pattern, due to the stylistic and personality
differences in the creators.  Well, Dworkin created the original
Pattern, but recall that much of it was destroyed (by Brand).  But
it was not Dworkin who REPAIRED the Pattern -- it was Oberon.
Oberon's "patches" might have affected the consistency of the
Pattern in some unfortunate way.
   Also, I agree with a previous post about the nature of Shadow.
The distinction between creation and discovery is probably none at
all.  A Prince may walk to any world whose physical features he
"envisions", but he can't envision every little detail: much is left
up to Nature (or the Pattern, you might say).  Included in what
Nature comes up with are histories, people, and memories for those
people.
   Of course, this raises the question of why Princes don't seek out
(i.e. create) highly advanced civilizations.  I do not think they
are comfortable with them ... Merlin and Rinaldo are becoming more
comfortable, but the older ones, no.

Kevin Knight
knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 86 12:48:23 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (laurence)
Subject: zelazny

The reason Merlin CAN'T walk to Proxima Centauri is that he has no
idea what it is like there. Shadow travel is accomplished by the
addition and subtraction of features, or by the use of Trump or
Pattern to get to someplace already known or specifically
identifiable.

Thus each shadow may be completely different and unrelated. Lets say
Merlin adds two suns to the sky; is he still in a place that is
cognate to Earth in our shadow? It is a numinous question since the
shadows don't have to correspond in such a simple way as to keep the
basic topology of our universe. Why doesn't Merlin ever walk to a
shadow where planck's constant is different and there can be no such
thing as matter, say? Because he isn't that stupid.

Presumably, since Amber and the Courts exist in such a way as to
support "life as we know it" more or less, most shadows can do the
same simply because no one would travel to a shadow that wouldn't,
thus "creating" it, or at least making it more accessible. If you
read Creatures of Light and Darkness and Roadmarks you will get more
discussion of the finding vs. creating argument. One thing Merlin
COULD do is walk to a shadow very close to ours where they have
ftl..... Another thing is he could do is walk to a place where the
Earth was 4 light years away, trying to keep everything else
constant as much as possible between Earth and this new shadow, but
he still couldn't be sure that the place he had walked to would be
anything like the real vicinity of Proxima Centauri. It would be
annoying to walk shadow in a spacesuit anyhow...

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 05:08:20 GMT
From: looking!brad@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Don't be silly, Amberites can't walk to the stars

brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>Another thing is he could do is walk to a place where the Earth was
>4 light years away, trying to keep everything else constant as much
>as possible between Earth and this new shadow, but he still
>couldn't be sure that the place he had walked to would be anything
>like the real vicinity of Proxima Centauri. It would be annoying to
>walk shadow in a spacesuit anyhow...

There's one big point everybody is missing.  The Amber universe is
Amber (Earth) centered.  In Zelazny's books, Copernicus was wrong.
Bruno was wrong.  They were all wrong.  Everything in that universe
revolves around Amber and the pattern, the one fixed point.

No comment about what Chaos is like, but it has little to do with
our observed sky.

In Amber, the stars are just lights in the sky, probably nothing
more.  Dworkin carved the pattern and one planet and all its shadows
with it.  In the real Amber, many technologies don't work.  You
would have to show evidence for the existence of such things as
light years of space, other stars and planets.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  6 Nov 86 11:18:06 est
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Shadow-walking to ftl

>One thing Merlin COULD do is walk to a shadow
>very close to ours where they have ftl.....

That's where the create-vs-find question comes in.  If the
shadow-walker creates the shadow he's looking for then who is the
inventor of the ftl drive?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 86 19:48:56 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Don't be silly, Amberites can't walk to the stars

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>>Another thing is he could do is walk to a place where the Earth
>>was 4 light years away, trying to keep everything else constant as
>>much as possible between Earth and this new shadow, but he still
>>couldn't be sure that the place he had walked to would be anything
>>like the real vicinity of Proxima Centauri. It would be annoying
>>to walk shadow in a spacesuit anyhow...

No need, just fly there. Random did it

>There's one big point everybody is missing.  The Amber universe is
>Amber (Earth) centered.  In Zelazney's books, Copernicus was wrong.
>Bruno was wrong.  They were all wrong.  Everything in that universe
>revolves around Amber and the pattern, the one fixed point.
>
>No comment about what Chaos is like, but it has little to do with
>our observed sky.
>
>In Amber, the stars are just lights in the sky, probably nothing
>more.  Dworkin carved the pattern and one planet and all its
>shadows with it.  In the real Amber, many technolgies don't work.
>You would have to show evidence for the existence of such things as
>light years of space, other stars and planets.  -- Brad Templeton,
>Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

No, they arn't missing anything at all. It's just a matter of
perception.  Roger never implied that there was a PHYSICAL
congruity, the relationship seems to be more magical than anything
else. Amber is the Magical or even Philosophical center of the
MULTIverse. It may very be the center of the universe that it is in,
but not necessarily the center of any others.
   As for the stars in Prime Amber, you make a good point. Perhaps
Random with the heightened perceptions that the Jewel provides could
answer that one for us. Anybody know his USENET address? :-)
   One interesting detail is that no matter which direction you
leave Amber travelling in, you will end up in Chaos if you travel
long enough.  "Courts of Chaos" definitely implied that there was a
SHORTEST distance route, but either multiple-universal dimensional
geometries are radically different than those we normally use (not
at all unlikely), or this can be seen as further proof that the
relationship is not simply physical.
   Has anyone else done any serious thinking about multiversal
coordinate systems? I've been halfheartedly working on describing a
friend's constructed multiverse in some coherent manner, and have had
only marginal success. Any ideas?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 06:29:12 GMT
From: 6105530@PUCC.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg)
Subject: Re: zelazny

I would disagree with your assessment of Merlin's abilities.  He is
able to travel shadow, which is to subtly alter the physical
characteristics of the world he is in, but he wouldn't be able to do
anything as subtle as change Planck's constant.  Remember, in
traveling shadow they have to find things, not just figure they want
their next steps to take them to "someplace that has gunpowder that
works in Amber" or whatever.  When Merlin extends his Logrus hand to
find something, he has to search for it through many shadows - the
more improbable or specific the object, the longer the search.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 04:16:42 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Erich Rickheit)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

evp@lewey.UUCP (Ed Post) writes:
> I am trying to compile a canonical list of SF *novels* dealing
> with (1) sentient computers, and (2) human mental access to
> computers or computer networks.....

I'd like to insert a quick plug at this point-one excellent novel on
this subject, especially for computer people-is Delany's
_Valentina:_Soul_in_ _Sapphire_. This was an _excellent_ novel that
was killed by a poor and misleading cover painting and blurb. If you
can get your hands on it, I heartily recommend it!

UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit
USnail:  Erich Rickheit
         85 Gershom Ave, #2
         Lowell, MA 01854

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Nov 86 0756-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #380
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 11 Nov 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 380

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - Dragons & Drinks (2 msgs) &
                    Conventions (3 msgs) & Time Travel (5 msgs) &
                    Weapons Policies (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1986 17:58 EDT
From: AJB  <RAAQC718%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Information request:

I am writing an article, part of which chronicles a history of
dragons in literature. I would appreciate if people would write me
about their favorite dragon-type e.g. Smaug from Tolkien,
Dragonriders of Pern from Anne Macaffrey, etc.  I may even come up
with a top-ten of dragons. Thanx.

Please send mail to BERKSON@QCVAXA or ALBQC@CUNYVM.

Alan Berkson
Queens College Academic Computer Center
BERKSON@QCVAXA, ALBQC@CUNYVM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 09:30:24 GMT
From: hope!allanon@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Leung)
Subject: Drinks mentioned in SF stories

I am trying to collect names of drinks mentioned in SF stories and I
named my place Draco's Tavern.

Pan Galatic Gargle Blaster  Douglas Adams   /*Hitchhikers GUide */
Panther Sweat               Harry Harrison  /*stainless Steel Rat */
ron                      Harry Harrison
Opal Fire                Larry Niven     /*More tales from Draco's */
                                        /* Tavern                  */
Dragonfly                Steve Barnes   /* Street Lethal          */
Rum antaries             Joe Haldmen    /* The forever War       */

Anything else?

ken

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 16:09:22 GMT
From: ihlpa!smann@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mann)
Subject: Re: Drinks mentioned in SF stories

> I am trying to collect names of drinks mentioned in SF stories and
> I named my place Draco's Tavern.

Douglas Adams also mentions in Restaurant at the End of the Universe
that all [planets civilizations galaxies] have a drink they call
ginindonic (my spelling) or some version thereof.

I know he's right because we have a drink called gin and tonic which
qualifies.

Sherry Mann
ihnp4!ihlpa!smann

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 86 14:31:38 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Cons from the other side

Has anyone out there any access to hotel-industry trade
publications, and have you ever seen any articles or discussions in
them about Science-Fiction Conventions? I've only read about them
from the fan/participant point of view, aside from the few
"gee-whiz" newspaper articles on local cons, and I'd like to
read/see how cons are viewed from the "opposite" side -- that of the
hotel industry. (If there was nothing on SF cons in specific, how
about articles on conventions in general? That might be more
likely...)

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 86 01:15:39 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Cons from the other side

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA writes:
>Has anyone out there any access to hotel-industry trade
>publications, and have you ever seen any articles or discussions in
>them about Science-Fiction Conventions?

Second-hand information, but I gather that (at least until recently)
the industry's "handbook" opinion of SF fans could be summarized as:
They don't cause much damage, they don't spend much money, and they
don't patronize the hotel hookers -- presumably we bring our own
entertainment :-)

Jordin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 86 13:41:20 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: WFC

The World Fantasy Convention was held down the hill from Brown this
weekend.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what was going on, who was
there (besides King, Vardeman, Haldeman...)... Was anyone who's
reading this there?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 86 10:55:44 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
To: brad%looking.waterloo.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Re:  time travel suggestions

   FREON?!? You've GOT to be kidding! As an ex-chemist I have some
idea of the difficulty involved in producing it without major supply
and preparation structures in place.
   Right on Otis----in \broad/ terms. Now do you remember how?
   Scurvy is caused by a dietary deficiency; it was recognized/cured
in seamen substantially because sea power was vital to England. I
would expect scurvy to be endemic in winter outside the upper
classes, since relatively fresh produce is virtually the only source
of vitamin C (a very delicate chemical---it's used in biochemical
experiments as a short-term preservative because it reacts with
potential interferents before they can mess up what you're
interested in. You wouldn't find it in most preserved foods, even
many pickles (since they're cooked---and in most cultures pickles
are a luxury item).)
   In general, I get the impression that as a "businessman" you have
little idea of how deep the technology is behind the things you
consider trivial, and none at all of the resistance to disturbance
of most cultures (which resistance may be a good thing; otherwise we
might not be here. cf various stories about the destructive effect
on contemporary society of minor devices (free shoelaces?!?) from
advanced technologies).
   Finally, you speak of preparation. The original inquiry
specifically stated removal with no warning, to a time not of the
transportee's choice (although not actually chosen to be dreadful,
as in the Anderson story in which a time agent catches up to a
would-have-been world conqueror who survived being exiled to Poland
in 1939 (the last line is "I left him in Damascus (? Baghdad?) the
year before Tamerlane sacked it.")). Certainly preparation makes it
easier---but planning for the high profile you suggest is more
likely to cause you to wind up dead or in a lunatic asylum.
Predicting a major event is a fine idea, but relying on present-day
records for anything less mechanical than an eclipse is likely to
lose (when did it happen vs when was it publicized?  (consider the
Declaration of Independence...) how do you get to someone to whom it
matters?).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 86 14:14:52 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> of all, movable type.  I just saw James Burke's "The Day the
> Universe Changed" (part 3) which discussed the effects of printing
> upon society.  The advantages of inventing the printing press are
> as follows:
> a) It draws upon available technology.  (Metal casting, presses,
>    ink, paper.)  (In a pinch one could use vellum or parchment,
>    the limiting factor in earlier times was lack of scribes.)
>    (Sufficiently early and removed from Egypt one might have to
>    invent paper, but that is not all that hard to do.)

Well, Burke's previous show ("Connections") pointed out that
moveable type (note: *not* the printing press) caught on because
there was suddenly a much larger supply of paper than before.  And
why?  Because people had started wearing underwear, leading to a
supply of linen rags which could profitably be turned into paper!
Without a supply of paper, moveable type wouldn't be nearly as
useful.  The printing press mentioned above had been around for a
while, but used a single block for each sheet.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 86 15:20:46 pst
From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
Subject: time travel

Something that most people seem not to have considered in their
"person dropped back in time" remarks. What about personal jewelry?
While this probably wouldn't last long, it might be enough to get
you meals for the first few days.  Comments?

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 86 13:22:27 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Time-traveling musician

If a musician with a good memory arrived at the right period in
history, he or she could invent his instrument...in fact, maybe
Stradivarius was a modern time traveller who had studied how to make
his violins like Stradivarius did! Or, a clarinet player could
perform Mozart's clarinet concerto for him, under the name of Anton
Stadler....

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 86 18:57:08 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

>I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of
>modern medical and dental care.  It would be a shame to die of
>appendicitis or pneumonia (add penicillin to the invention list) or
>other curable problems.

Actually, disease is likely to be a MAJOR problem for such a
traveller.  Exactly what kind of problem is not entirely clear,
however.

It is clear that as generations pass, diseases tend to become less
virulent.  There are two obvious mechanisms for this: people evolve
to become more resistant to the disease, and the disease evolves to
become less harmful.  (Being deadly is a distinct disadvantage for a
disease -- better if it can live in its host without killing it.)
It is not clear just what the balance is between these two
mechanisms.

If human evolution is the primary factor, our time traveller becomes
a "Typhoid Mary"; all the organisms in his body which are harmless
to him prove otherwise in the general populace, and the result is
plague -- maybe three or four plagues at the same time.

If evolution of the organisms is primary, the time traveller is
exposed to a host of deadly diseases to which he has no resistance,
and can be expected to sicken and die.

In an intermediate case, which is likely, both of the above may
happen.

At minimum, one can expect the time traveller to come down with a
bad and prolonged case of "Montezuma's revenge", and everyone else
to get bad head colds.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 21:03:04 GMT
From: umcp-cs!tewok@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Uncle Wayne)
Subject: Re: Weapons policies...

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>In Markland, there are steel *recreation* fighting forms.  The
>weapons are *very* blunt, and there is rigorous qualification
>involved.  Fights are rigorously choreographed.  "Fratricidal"
>fighting involves padded weapons and is more akin to the SCAdian
>style.  Perhaps this is the source of the confusion.

Markland's steel weapons are so blunt that I was once hit in the arm
by a rather hard sword blow.  The only ill effect, other than a
certain amount of pain, was a bruise that covered the entire surface
of that side of the arm.  (The degree of the certain amount of pain
was large.)  The person who hit me was somewhat new to fighting, so
he apparently didn't think to look at where the follow-up would take
his sword.  The fighting is rigorously choreographed and fighters
are checked out thoroughly to make sure they really do know what
they are doing, more than just than swinging a sword.  The incident
I described above occurred before the present, stringent steel
qualification rules came into effect.

Wayne Morrison
Parallel Computation Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690
ARPA: tewok@brillig
UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!tewok

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 86 01:12:56 GMT
From: mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Weapons policies... (SCA)

JESUP@ge-crd.arpa writes:
>The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without
>peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent
>stakes....

I can't speak for all SCA groups, but the policy in our group (and I
strongly suspect this is policy in all kingdoms) *requires* weapons
to be peace-strapped, and *forbids* their being drawn except when
you are far enough away from other people that you couldn't possibly
hit them accidentally.

I've seen some weapon-carrying jerks, but I don't think most of them
are SCAdians.  In the SCA you learn how to handle a weapon or you
get tossed out.  Unfortunately, the SCA gets the blame when any
asshole with a blade decides to do something stupid; people never
seem to consider that he might just be a random.

UUCP: seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-cad!mjc
      {seismo, ihnp4, qantel, ucbvax!ucdavis} !lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad
      dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 86 23:39:28 GMT
From: ihuxi!okie@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Cobb)
Subject: Re: Weapons and weapons policies at conventions

> The policy is that of CAPRICON held in the Chicago area during
> February (I think, it conflicts with WISCON).  TTheir Weapons
> policy can be said something like this;
>
>     CAPRICON has no Weapons Policy

As of the last Capricon (February 1986), a stated weapons policy was
in force.  In short, no weapons were allowed at the con, period.  I
was in charge of putting the program book together, and the
committee chair made sure that the policy went up front in the book
for all to see.  So things have apparently changed at Capricon with
regard to weapons.  (I think weapons dealers were also not allowed
in the dealer's room...?)

B. K. Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 86 21:49 EST
From: JESUP RANDELL                 <JESUP@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Re: Weapons Policies

jacob@renoir.Berkeley.EDU (Jacob Butcher) writes:
>>The SCAdians tend to carry large amounts of sharp steel, without
>>peace bonds, and use it to practice, display, eat, carve tent
>>stakes....
>
>It is strictly against SCA policy to practice with live steel.

I meant practice using the weapons, not fighting each other with
them.  SCAdians have a low tolerance for endangering other people.

Also, remember that SCAdians usually deal less closely with mundanes
than Fans do, and even SCAdians usually remove MOST steel before
going into Mundania.

msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach) writes:
>3.  No edged weapons except under the following constraints
>    a.  Blade length of 4 inches or less
>    b.  Blades must me single edged
>    c.  No spring loaded knives.

Does that mean my table knife with a 4.5" blade is illegal?  Or the
Japanese katana I carry to kenjutsu class?  Is it legal to have a
carving knife?  What about the double edged survival knife I keep in
my car for emergencies?

Silly law, if you ask me.  One should prohibit the violent use of
weapons, concealment, or criminal intent.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 86 00:35:18 GMT
From: axiom!bill@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William C Carton)
Subject: Re: Weapons policies... (SCA)

Interesting observations on SCA-ers:
(from a 13-year member of NESFA)
I accidentally introduced my wife's sister to fandom, from which she
discovered SCA and HER future husband. Their marriage was around six
years ago, but my sister-in-law had become a Quaker. The ceremony
was in the Society of Friends tradition: silent meditation
interspersed with prayers/testimonials/utterances by the
congregation.

Afterwards, the groom, who was an SCA member as well as a graduate
of the Mass. Maritime Academy, stepped up to the wedding cake (baked
and decorated by my wife) in his dress (militaristic) maritime
whites.  With at least ten people within ten feet of him (including
a couple of little children), he drew his dress sword with a
flourish, swung it around a few times in a manner reminiscent of the
Arab in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_, and sliced the cake with his
chrome-shiny steel.

The pacifist Friends were silently horrified at this display, and
waited until the ceremony was over to ask the bride to make sure
never to bring this boor through their doors again.

Brandishing steel is bad enough, but Cambridge (MA) is especially
intolerant.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Nov 86 0839-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #381
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Nov 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 381

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Brin & Eddings &
                     Hubbard (2 msgs) & Norman & 
                     Palmer (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Zelazny &
                     Sentient Computers (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 86 14:09:04 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Asimov

may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may) says:

>        I have read that Asimov has come out with the latest
>Foundation book, 'Foundation and Earth'.  Has anyone read this, or
>know about it?  I'd like to know what others' opinions are of some
>of Asimov's more recent stuff.
(...)
>        Don't get me wrong, I like most of Asimov's writing.  I
>thought the original Foundation books were terrific, and I really
>liked 'The Caves of Steel' and 'The Naked Sun'.  But it seems to me
>that Asimov is running out of steam.  What do the rest of you
>think?  Please keep the flames low, I'm not trying to insult
>anyone.  I'd really like to know how the latest book turned out,
>though.

     I've read "Robots and Empire," and "Foundation and Earth."  My
opinion is that if you read one, don't bother with the other.
Whichever one you read first will cause the second to be
pathetically predictable.  Personally, I'd recommend "Robots and
Empire."

     I agree that Asimov's been pretty weak lately.  He's fallen
into the same trap as Robert Heinlein-- i.e, he's spending more time
tying together all of his fiction, and putting less effort into
making it interesting.  Hopefully, they'll both pull out of this
tailspin soon.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 16:33:47 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Lije Baley

I agree with you about Asimov's ROBOTS OF DAWN, but I think that
ROBOTS AND EMPIRE what rather better. I don't know, but it seems to
me that Asimov and Heinlein are BOTH losing it. Maybe if they
decided to start from something new.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 03:23:35 GMT
From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch)
Subject: Origins of "The Postman" by D. Brin

SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA writes:
>                       "The Postman" by David Brin
>The setting is America after the holocaust, both nuclear and
>manmade.  Our hero is the mild mannered (for the times at least)
>Gordon Krantz.  He starts out by telling the lie that he's a real
>Postman and Federal Inspector as a ruse to gain lodging and food
>from the various hamlets encountered in a search for "something
>better"; and through a series of skirmishes with other survivors,
>his conscience and an innate idealism ends up believing his own
>lies, all the while knowing that they remain falsehoods.

I haven't had time to get to this yet, but wasn't this originally
published as a long short story/novella in Asimov's or some place
like that a couple of years ago?  That storyline really rings some
bells...

Walt Pesch
{ihnp4,akgua,et al}!cuuxb!wbp
cuuxb!wbp@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 10:26:27 GMT
From: gareth@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Belgariad by David Eddings

From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
>>Has Eddings written anything else since the Belgariad?
>His new series (set in the same world, after the time of the
>Belgariad) is due to be published starting early next year.

The bumph in the local shop says that the hard-back is due out in
January, will cost ~$15, is called "Guardians of the West" and is
the first book in "The Malloreans".

I still recon it will probably be well worth avoiding.

Gareth Husk
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth
DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4586

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1986 22:09 EST
From: Dave Goldblatt  <USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V11

Regarding L. Ron Hubbard:

I remember reading in his obituary that he HAD completed all of the 
novels in his dekology.  Personally, I didn't like the two I read (the
word "drivel" comes to mind).

dg BITNET: USERBH0U@CLVM ARPA: USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU 
UUCP: ...!trixie!gould!clutx!bh0u

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 21:31:10 GMT
From: randvax!jim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth

>I have read _Battlefield Earth_, it is published in the UK and it
>is excellent. It is Hubbard's first attempt at 'pure' science
>fiction and makes an excellent read.

As a kid I enjoyed Hubbard's "Doc Methuselah" stories in
_Astounding_.  Don't those qualify as pure science fiction?  I have
my doubts about _Battlefield Earth_, though.  I (mildly) enjoyed it,
but would class it more as Space Opera that 'pure' SF, if I had to
make the distinction.

Jim Gillogly
{hplabs, ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim
jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 03:09:26 GMT
From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch)
Subject: Re: Gor[e]

To be able to truly understand the entire rationale behind the Gor
Universe, the following is an absolute must...

   11   Slave Girl of Gor

This is the most shining example of what has earned Gor it's
hallowed place in the Golden Annals of SF History.

SPOILER FOLLOWS:

Of course the place that Gor has earned is in the sub-basement right
next to the Perry Rhodan collection.  If you actual enjoyed the
later novels in the John Carter of Mars series, you should even
enjoy Gor.  And if you must try one, be sure to get it from a Used
Book store - you won't feel bad when you throw it away/sell it back
to the bookstore for some poor sucker who didn't read the spoiler.

Better yet, go get Adam's Horseclans series if you are really
looking for something in this sub-genre...

Walt Pesch
{ihnp4,akgua,et al}!cuuxb!wbp
cuuxb!wbp@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 86 14:18:27 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: EMERGENCE

   did not keep me on the edge of anything. Infinitely predictable
(you \know/ perfectly well that the heroine is going to Houdini
herself out of every bad situation---after all, she's a \homo/
\superior/ (or whatever Palmer was calling it), and she's
toosaccharine-cute to die.
   It's not bad as a post-holocaust story, though---at least as a
problem story (how's she going to find a vehicle/cross a river/draw
the right kind of attention to herself) rather than a social story.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 01:02:20 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes:
>   did not keep me on the edge of anything. Infinitely predictable
>(you

Whoa...you mean there was some time in the book that you *knew* what
was going to happen next? (!???) I'm impressed. Of all the
complaints I expected about this book, predictability was not one of
them. (it was too contrived to be predictable)

>\know/ perfectly well that the heroine is going to Houdini herself
>out of every bad situation---after all, she's a \homo/ \superior/
>(or whatever Palmer was calling it), and she's toosaccharine-cute
>to die.

When was the last time you read a book in which the
narrator/protagonist/ main character died before the end? (that is,
assuming the book is not *about* the character's death) I admit that
a few examples do exist, but they are rare enough to be ignorable.
In *this* sense...almost *every* book is predictable. Plot
development becomes rather difficult when there's no one around to
talk about... Also, I'm not quite sure I agree that she is
"saccharine-cute" I'm not sure I can call *anyone* 'cute' who can
break every bone in a person's body before they have a chance to say
"wait, it's a misunderstanding" Admittedly, she regrets this
overdramatically, but I can't call her "saccharaine-cute"

I think some people have forgotten to consider (at least) one thing:
this book is a *diary* written by a precocious, but nonetheless 14
year old girl. One comment I saw earlier was that the characters
(other than the main character) were wooden. How realistic do you
think it would be for a prepubescent person, regardless of how
knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the *wisdom* to understand
people well enough to develop their characters in a diary? In fact,
that seems to be what this book is all about: learning about people.
The fact that Palmer uses a rather strained metaphor to deliniate
the good folk from the bad is a minor inconvenience at worst; the
way this girl grows from childish naivete into someone who tries to
understand people without pre-judging them is the highlight of the
novel.

I also heard the complaint that the style was grating. I thought
this too...for about the first 50 pages. But the style is so
*consistent* and so *appropriate* for the circumstances, that I
found myself absorbed by it thereafter. I won't hesitate to point
out that other authors have used grating styles in a very powerful
manner.  (Joyce, Faulkner, Vonnegut, Nabokov, Borges, Burgess, just
to name a few) One thing that Palmer acheived with this style was
that he was able to compress 500+ pages of story into ~250 pages. It
was quite exhilerating to read. (in my humble opinion) It is amazing
how fast the action seems to happen when the author dispenses with
the deadweight in the English language.

I agree that this novel has its flaws: the plot is unbelieveably
contrived, the motif of the *homo superior* is annoying at best, the
"interesting" relationship she has with her "younger sibling" is
trite and overworked, etc., etc. But...on the whole, I feel that the
way the main character is developed, the way she views the other
members of the cast, the fast-paced adventure styling (with not just
a little hint of satire/parody of space opera) make up for these
flaws. Additionally, regardless of how trite, the ending *is*
heartwarming, even to the most callous of readers. Normally, I find
this to be detrimental to a book :-) but in this case, I felt she
deserved *something* for her troubles, if only just a kind word in
history.

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
...seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 19:02:22 GMT
From: phri!lewando@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Lewandoski)
Subject: Wolfe's SotM and "Bicameral Mind"

     I've read most of Wolfe's fiction and find it all very very
good. When I saw _Solder of the Mist_ I thought I'd wait for the
paperback, being budgeted.  Someone on the net mentioned there were
problems with the publishing, that a small # were published and its
now out of print???

Gosh I hope not...

So I haven't read it, but from what I've heard about it, the premise
sort of reminds me of Julian Jaynes' (Im not sure if that's his
correct name--apologies) _The Origin of Consciousness in the
Breakdown of the Bicarmeral Mind_.  This book describes the author`s
theory of consciousness which proposes that humanity in early
_historical_ times was not self-aware in any way we would recognize
but were rather blindly following the voices and directions of the
gods thru visual and auditory hallucinations...all due to a
bicarmeral structured brain with one half commanding the other.

I know it could sound ridiculous and I think it's bullshit...but the
book is a lot of fun to read...his evidence and proofs are very
informative and good reading; I just dont accept his conclusions...

But I was wondering if anyone had read both the pyschology book as
well as Wolfe's fiction and had any thought about it...

Mark Lewandoski

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 22:35:29 GMT
From: usc-oberon!blarson@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Larson)
Subject: Re: Amber and Star Travel (mostly star travel)

>>Let's say Merlin wants to travel to planet 4 of Proximia
>>Centauri....  Now, where, physically, is he?
>
>If he can really travel through space in a single shadow, he'll
>arrive at the same place the classmate arrives.

I figured that to shadow-walk from California to France reasonably
quickly, you would chose to walk in a shadow where the rules of
space are different than ours so you did not have to walk several
thousand miles.

As to the question of ariving at a different place in the same
shadow vs. a similar shadow, I think this is taken care of by the
property of shadows becoming more "real" when an amberite stays
there for a long time: it's easier to get to somewhere well
established.

Bob Larson
Arpa: Blarson@Usc-Eclb.Arpa
      blarson@usc-oberon.arpa
Uucp: (ihnp4,hplabs,tektronix)!sdcrdcf!usc-oberon!blarson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 12:26:08 CDT
From: DAVE%UWF.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Human Computers

   In my growing up years, I was especially enamored of the writings
of R.A. Heinlein, who wrote a few of those books involving sentient
comput- ers that you are asking about.  The ones that come to mind
are:

     Number of the Beast, R.A.H.
     Time Enough For Love, R.A.H.
     The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, R.A.H.

   I found all of these, (I'm currently reading TCwwTW right now),
quite good reading material, but bear in mind that if you didn't
like Heinlein before, these might not turn you on.  But if R.A.H.
does excite you as he does me, you'll love them.  Nuff said.

Dave Jaquay
BITNET: DAVE@UWF
Phone : (904) 479-5226

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 13:35:45 GMT
From: geac!david@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Haynes)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

More obscure examples:

   Alright! Everyone off the planet! by Bob Ottum
   The Adolescence of P1

David Haynes
geac!david
Geac Computers
350 Steelcase Road
Markham, Ontario CANADA

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 21:02:12 GMT
From: utai!nunes@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

The best sentient computer stories I have read are those in
  "The Cyberiad: Fables for the Cybernetic Age", Stanislaw Lem

These are also some of the best stories I have read (period).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 86 11:26:24 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Canonical sentient computer list

Asimov's FOUNDATION'S EDGE and FOUNDATION AND EARTH have a
ship-controlling computer that Trevize controls telepathically.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 00:34:56 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

I'm not sure which category I'd put this somewhat obscure book
(probably both, actually).  It's one of my favorites in the
"sentient computer" genre:

   "Simulacron-3"  by  Daniel F. Galouye

Interesting "twists" on the theme.  Worth reading, if you can find
it.

kim
UUCP:  {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim
DDD:   408-746-8462
USPS:  Amdahl Corp.
       M/S 249
       1250 E. Arques Av
       Sunnyvale, CA 94086

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Nov 86 0908-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #382
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 382

Today's Topics:

         Books - Adams (10 msgs) & Card & Zelazny (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 05:36:18 GMT
From: haddock!karl@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Karl Heuer)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

I don't think any of this requires a spoiler warning, does it?

In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.  In
the fourth, it's back.  Did Adams ever explain this properly?

Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
second head natural?  How is it that he had only one head when
Arthur first met him (at the party)?

And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series?
Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken
language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this
causes several problems.

Replies of the form "Don't take it so seriously" cheerfully ignored.
These are no worse than the endless Star Trek questions.*

Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied?  I'm still waiting for
a chance to see the TV segments.  (Saw most of the first one, then
had to leave town.)

Karl W. Z. Heuer
ima!haddock!karl
karl@haddock.isc.com
*Well, not much worse, anyway.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 00:01:23 GMT
From: may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes:
>I don't think any of this requires a spoiler warning, does it?
>
>In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.
>In the fourth, it's back.  Did Adams ever explain this properly?

   I think Adams' explanation was that the dolphins, as they
departed the ill-fated earth, felt sorry for the poor human race and
found another identical planet in an alternate dimension and
replaced the earth with it.  Thus the humans' confusion at the total
absence of white mice and dolphins from the planet after the 'great
calamity', which they wrote off as a gigantic hoax, and the yellow
ships which hovered just the way bricks don't were all an illusion.

>Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
>second head natural?  How is it that he had only one head when
>Arthur first met him (at the party)?

   Neither the third arm nor the second head were natural.  I think
he mentions where he got them in one of the books, I can't remember
which.  [An aside: in the Infocom Hitchhikers' game, there is a
scene where you (Arthur) meet Philip (Zaphod) and at the time he has
what appears to be a large covered bird cage on his shoulder which
makes occasional snoring noises.]

>And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series?
>Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken
>language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this
>causes several problems.

   Inconsistencies?  In Hitchhikers, never! :-)

>Replies of the form "Don't take it so seriously" cheerfully ignored.
>These are no worse than the endless Star Trek questions.*
>
>Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied?  I'm still waiting for
>a chance to see the TV segments.  (Saw most of the first one, then
>had to leave town.)

   I haven't heard about a movie, but I think that the TV series
weren't quite as good as the book - though I still visualize Arthur
and Ford as the actors who played them in the series.

Jason May
may@husc4.harvard.edu
seismo!harvard!husc4!may

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 00:25:33 GMT
From: BCSCHONE@PUCC.BITNET (Brian Schoner)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes:
>In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.
>In the fourth, it's back.  Did Adams ever explain this properly?

>Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
>second head natural?  How is it that he had only one head when
>Arthur first met him (at the party)?

To the first question: yes, there is an explanation in _So Long..._.
The dolphins found an alternate Earth in another dimension and
replaced the old one with it.  This is implied, if not directly
stated, in the scene where Arthur puts the fishbowl to his ear.  As
for your second question, there's no answer in the books, but in the
Infocom "Guide" adventure game (co-written by Doug himself), Zaphod
("Phil") is seen at the party with an unusually large birdcage, all
draped in black, on one shoulder.  It's not a great answer, but it's
all we've got.

Brian Schoner

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 03:10:58 GMT
From: watnot!cjhoward@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Caleb J. Howard)
Subject: Hitchiker's - Let's talk about it.

Hi there.
I thought that it might be nice to get into a heated discussion
about Hitchiker's Guide.  I'll start:

I read an interview with Douglas Adams (A man with whom I apparently
share a brain type) in some computer rag in which he describes how
he got the idea for the series It went something like this: He was
at a party much like all the parties you never see on campus at the
University of Waterloo... That is, the music and beer at the party
he was at were nice.  So nice in fact, that he drank just enough
beer to want to lie down outside.  After He had gotten used to his
new relationship with the ground he noticed the sky.  "Hey," he said
to nobody in particular, "it floats."

I don't do him justice, but I don't have the interview anymore.
Anyhow, thus was the inception of a new school of thought.

Your turn.

Caleb J. Howard
cjhoward!watnot!watmath

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 21:32:22 GMT
From: P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

>How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
>What does everyone who knows about it, think about it?

Doug! He's my man! Actually, the Hitchhiker craze seems to have only
picked up in America recently (in terms of years), but now it's got
rave reviews, a T.V.  show, and that ultimate sign of poularity, a
video game. But in England, people have known his name for quite a
while.  If you look carefully, you will see his name in the
occasional Dr. Who or Monty Python episode credits as a script
editor.
   Hitchhiker originally came out in Britain as a radio series which
aired here in the U.S. for a time on National Public Radio. I heard
most of it, and it was easily as funny as the books. It is also out
on record, but I don't know if the albums are true to the original
script. The books came next, and of course the inevitable T.V.
series.  At any rate, (say, 3.2 MPH :-) ), I have heard that he was
basically a household word in the U.K. long before anyone in the
U.S. heard of him.  How credible that is I don't know.
   My opinion? The Hitchhiker series is are some os the best books I
have ever read. Go read them, you won't regret it.

Philip Semanchuk
P5S@PSUVMB

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 04:30:03 GMT
From: CGR@PSUVMB.BITNET
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

To all those Hitchhikers fans out there, I thought maybe I should
inform you of the new Douglas Adams book that will be coming about
this spring. It's called Dirk Gently's Hilinistic Detective
Agency--or something closely resembling that title. As you can
probably guess, it has nothing to do with the dear old characters
from Hitchhikers. I think it will be good anyhow.  And, in
difference to his usual pattern, a second book in that series is
planned to go out the following year--Not the ususal five years it
took him for some other novels. I hope I get this sent right, I've
never done this before. So long...Share and Enjoy

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 16:07:24 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

>How popular is Douglas Adams' _Hitchikers_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_ ?

It is so popular that you must have spent the past 4 years in a cave
in Nepal somewhere not to have heard about it until now... :-)

>What do people think about it ?

Forgive me for being biased, but the HHG is the most amazing set of
radio programs ever to come out of the BBC. The books are great too.
The TV series, although great, was not as good.
  I managed to talk to The Great Man Himself (Douglas Adams ) for a
few minutes at a book signing session, and he himself dislikes the
TV series.
  "Would it have been better if animated ?" I asked.
  "It would have been better if we had had a different bl**dy
producer" was his reply before delving into a mound of books, pen
frantically scratching away...

  There are four books in the series:
        The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy
        The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
        Life, the Universe, and Everything
and     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

  If you can get copies of the original Radio Series, do so. There
are 12 episodes, each of half an hour.

  My advice would be, if you have none of the books, is to get the
1st book and read it. If you are a true fan, you will then be unable
to stop yourself buying all three of the others, the radio scripts
book, the towel, etc...

  Happy HitchHiking...

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 11:07:52 GMT
From: cc-30@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

may@husc4.UUCP (jason may) writes:
>karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes:
>>Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied?  I'm still waiting for
>>a chance to see the TV segments.  (Saw most of the first one, then
>>had to leave town.)
>>
>   I haven't heard about a movie, but I think that the TV series
>weren't quite as good as the book - though I still visualize Arthur
>and Ford as the actors who played them in the series.

The movie is still listed as "in development" in the last issue of
Film Journal magazine. Columbia is only revealing that the director
of Ghostbusters (gee, it isn't easy remembering names at 3am...)
will be the director. RUMOR has it that he is trying to get Bill
Murry in this.

As for the television show, other than the usual BBC special
effects, the problem was that the actor who played Ford Prefect
didn't play his character as cool on television as he was in the
radio series. In addition Sandra Dickenson (Trillian) did not seem
to be nearly as "devistatingly inteligent" in the t.v. series as
Susan Sheridan was on radio.

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ucbvax!cory!cc-30
USnail:  2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 21:07:25 GMT
From: P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

> In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.
> In the fourth book, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this properly?

I'm not positive, but I thought that the mice (or somebody) merely
recommisioned its creation (I can see the Fundamentalists up in arms
already :-) ) and the program it was supposed to run was simply
restarted the split second after the other one ended. I don't know
if I read this somewhere or just made it up and thought I read it
somewhere or whatever but it sounds like a pretty good explanation
to me.
  Oh, and about Zaphod's extra complement of limbs and such: I am
pretty sure that one of the books said that he had them surgically
added. Must be nice.

Philip Semanchuk
P5S@PSUVMB

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 22:10:00 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) says:
>In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.
>In the fourth, it's back.  Did Adams ever explain this properly?

     It came back because of the dolphins, as explained at the end
of the fourth book.  When Wonko the Sane tells Arthur to listen to
the bowl that the dolphins gave him.

     They (the dolphins) combined their will to pull a new Earth out
of a parallel dimension, and then placed it in our universe.

>Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
>second head natural?  How is it that he had only one head when
>Arthur first met him (at the party)?

     It was made fairly clear that the arm was added later (as you
noted).  So why not a head?  Two heads *are* better than one, you
know... :-)

>And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series?
>Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken
>language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this
>causes several problems.

     So when does he read another language?  Never, as far as I
remember.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 22:43:58 GMT
From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee)
Subject: Re: Any other books by Card?

A friend loaned me a novel of Orson Scott Card's that I liked very
much.  I think it was called Songmaster.  It seems to be in a
different universe than Ender's Game.

I would give a lot to talk to Card about the various philosophies,
morals, and religions that run through his books.  Card is a
practicing Mormon, and that makes things even more interesting.  I
am not a Mormon--I am even somewhat anti-Christian--but I have a
great deal of respect for the complexities (and even beauty) of
abstract Mormon philosophy (whatever I think of the various
implementations of that philosophy).

I really wonder what the higher-ups in Salt Lake think of the guy
(they probably haven't read his writing).

Tracy Larrabee
tracy@sushi.stanford.edu
decwrl!larrabee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 86 05:58:55 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (L R Brothers)
Subject: shadowtravel

No, no, no, to get to France, Merlin can just walk around the block
at say, 42d street a while, adding and subtracting features, until
voila! he is in the Tuileries. He has no need to cover real
distance. A Hellride is when you cram the addition and subtraction
of features into a short interval, the actual odometer length of the
journey from here to there is more or less up to him, within some
constraints, presumably, like how fast and accurately he can
manipulate shadow. Ghostwheel, if it ever bothered to send a
terminal from shadow to shadow by walking, could probably go at more
or less one shadow per cycle....

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 05:56:16 GMT
From: 6105530@PUCC.BITNET (Daniel Kimberg)
Subject: Re: shadowtravel

I think there is an added complication, which is that the closer you
are to Amber, physically, the more difficult it is to travel shadow.
For instance, it is easier for folks like Merlin and Corwin to get
to distant shadows if they just walk a bit away from Amber, then
start manipulating shadow.  I think this points to Amber being a
sort of central point from which shadows extend, meaning that
although Amberites can add and subtract features as they like, the
closer to Amber they are physically, the closer the shadow they are
on will be to Amber...meaning that one could not simply walk in
circles to get to France.  The path would have to project outwards
until it reached a place where France could exist.  Going directly
to France would be an added bonus of precisely what was used to
focus on that shadow.  And, when on a shadow that looks like home
sweet home, it's much easier to take a plane or cab than it is to
leave and come back, pulling in different features from the same
place.  Any thoughts?

Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Nov 86 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #383
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 383

Today's Topics:

                Books - Duane (2 msgs) & Heinlein &
                        Hubbard (2 msgs) &
                        Palmer (5 msgs) & Perry Rhodan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 86 15:10:43 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: THE ROMULAN WAY

Diane Duane's next Star Trek book will be a socio-economic history
of the Rihannsu empire. Half of the story will deal with the
weird-named historian going to the Empire to find out what Diane
presents in the other half.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 86 14:51:53 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Diane Duane's next Wizard book

Yesterday at the Platinum Anniversary Convention in Boston, Diane
Duane went into the plot of this book. The basic premise is that
Dairene becomes a wizard, and decides to go attack Darth Vader! Nita
has to go after her before she does something fatal, like finding
him. ("Heaven help Darth Vader," someone added.) If you read the
first two books in the series, you remember that Nita and Kit got
their wizardry from their books. Dairene, however, gets hers from an
Apple 2c. She realizes that something's going on when she boots the
disk and the apple comes up without the bite in it. What's the first
thing you do when you get a new disk? That's right, you copy it.
Dairene uses the copy utility.  She gets another Apple. All this is
while her parents are sitting on the floor reading the instructions,
trying to figure out which cord to plug in first!  Diane told us
that she got some help on this book from an elementary school class.
She went and asked them (after throwing the teacher out) whether
Nita should go after Dairene and stop her, or "let her stew."  Half
the class said, "Let her stew!" The other half thought she should go
after Dairene, but a couple of kids gave the alternative she
used--let her stew for a couple days and THEN go help. I wish I
could remember what the title was.

SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD will be out soon in paperback.
SYWTBAW and DEEP WIZARDRY are available from Delacorte in hardcover.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 18:09:17 GMT
From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: Lije Baley

From: Garrett Fitzgerald

> EMPIRE what rather better. I don't know, but it seems to me that
> Asimov and Heinlein are BOTH losing it. Maybe if they decided to
> start from something

Having just finished reading "The Cat who walked through walls" (I
waited for the paperback this time - thank god) I'm inclined to
think Heinlein *has* lost it. At least Asimov deals with familiar
characters in a reasonably well-defined story line but Heinlein is
spending 500 pages to tell a (bad) story that should take 200. "Cat"
meanders around without any really obvious cause-and-effect, just
random things happening (well maybe that's a little strong but that
was certainly my first impression which suggests something isn't
quite right) interspersed with the gospel according to Heinlein
(badly presented). *sigh* I'll probably read his next book - if it's
free...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 14:13:34 cst
From: Craig Wilcox <hi-csc!wilcox@umn-cs>
Subject: MISSION EARTH: The Invaders Plan

                 MISSION EARTH:  The Invader's Plan
                           L. Ron Hubbard

               Book one of the Mission Earth dekology
                 A psuedo review by Craig D. Wilcox

The first book of the Mission Earth series should be classed with
the juveniles of SF, excepting for a few discreet passages. The book
is a fair to middlin' work.  Much of the book deals with a action
and reaction between the two main characters.  The book is written
in the first person, and tends to get a little wordy and boring at
times during some of the "shhhh...I am thinking" pages.  Possibly
this is due to Hubbard wanting to stretch the story into 10 books.
I can't imagine this story line going more than another book or two
at the most, the plot doesn't seem large enough.

                  ******* SPOLER WARNING *********

Soltan Gris is the story teller.  He's an employee of an Orwellian
department in the government.  He's used to plans within plans and
enjoys executing a pan to perfection.  "Jet" , the Man that upsets
him is the "good guy" and is a straight shooter and all around good
guy.  ( kinda like the joker in the movie "Rustler's Rhapsody" ) The
plot revolves around Gris' effort to get Jet to earth and help out
the department in compromising earth's strategic galactic position.

Hubbard takes numerous pages in the introduction to define the term
"satire" and pretty much gives away the general tone of the book and
I assume the series.  You are forced to believe some dumb things,
that's for sure.

                  ******  END SPOILERS ***********

I suggest borrowing a copy and reading it ( about 3-5 hours ) and
then continuing if it appeals to you.

On the old -4..0..+4 scale I'd give it a weak +2.0, but I do plan on
reading the next book and see where that gets me.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1986 13:39 CST
From: a.d. jensen  <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

Dave Goldblatt writes...
>Regarding L. Ron Hubbard: I remember reading in his obituary that
>he HAD completed all of the novels in his dekology.  Personally, I
>didn't like the two I read (the word "drivel" comes to mind).

Does this mean that the guy is seriously dead?  I mean, no more
Scientology rumors?  When?  Of what?  I see that there is a new
edition of Dionetics out.  Did he work more on this or is it all
just re-packaged stuff?

a.d. jensen
Department of Geography
University of North Dakota
Grand Forks, ND

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 00:14:37 GMT
From: desj@brahms (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

Not to beat a dead horse (I've already said that I hated the book),
but I want to respond to a couple of points:

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>I think some people have forgotten to consider (at least) one
>thing: this book is a *diary* written by a precocious, but
>nonetheless 14 year old girl. One comment I saw earlier was that
>the characters (other than the main character) were wooden. How
>realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person,
>regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the
>*wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their
>characters in a diary?

   This is ridiculous.  You don't need to understand people well to
write down what they do.  And their actions are what form their
characters.
   It is the actions described in the book that are so frustrating.
All of the characters are simply foils who act stupid to give the
protagonist a chance to be clever.
   On the other hand, if you are saying that the book does not
actually describe what really is supposed to have happened, but her
misperceptions of events, then this would be some excuse.  But there
is no indication of this in the book (aside from its thorough
implausibility!).

>Additionally, regardless of how trite, the ending *is*
>heartwarming, even to the most callous of readers.

   Obviously I am more callous than the most callous of readers (a
rare distinction indeed!).  I thought rescuing her by a deus ex
machina at the end, after she had put herself into a situation where
she had no real hope, was revolting, not "heartwarming."  I *hate*
books that try to pretend that one doesn't have to pay the price for
the choices one makes.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 09:09:21 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>I won't hesitate to point out that other authors have used grating
>styles in a very powerful manner.  (Joyce, Faulkner, Vonnegut,
>Nabokov, Borges, Burgess, just to name a few).

   I love sf-lovers. Only here do we find such marvelously demented
comments on literature. We have: Joyce, Nabokov, Borges -- three of
the very greatest stylists of twentieth century literature. We have
Burgess, who can write pretty well. We have Faulkner, who is a sort
of anti-stylist (the only one in this list to make any sense as an
example). Then we have Vonnegut, who is NOT interesting from a style
point of view at all.  If you want the real source of Palmer's
style, forget about Joyce and Nabokov. Read "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress", by another notorious NON-stylist storyteller: Robert
Heinlein.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 21:05:33 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

Not to beat a dead horse (I've already said that I liked the book),
but I want to respond to a couple of points:

desj@brahms (David desJardins) writes:
>And their actions are what form their characters.

This is naive at best. On the other hand, I agree that the other
characters are developed merely adequately. She is developed quite
well.

>All of the characters are simply foils who act stupid to give the
>protagonist a chance to be clever.

Care to site an example of a particularly stupid action by a
character?  They do exist, but to say that all the characters are
stupid all the time (or even most of the time) isn't quite fair.

>   Obviously I am more callous than the most callous of readers (a
>rare distinction indeed!).  I thought rescuing her by a deus ex
>machina at the end, after she had put herself into a situation
>where she had no real hope, was revolting, not "heartwarming."  I
>*hate* books that try to pretend that one doesn't have to pay the
>price for the choices one makes.

No, no, that wasn't what I meant at all...it wasn't her "rescue",
(which *was* deus ex machina) that I thought was heartwarming.
*After* she gets better is the part I found heartwarming. (and
sickeningly sequel-begging)

This book isn't "great" in any real way except as a fun,
action-packed, adventure flick that contains a nicely developed
protagonist. I said I *enjoyed* reading it, not that I wanted to
enshrine Palmer as a paragon of style. (hold that 'f' key, Mr.
Smith, wait for your own reply)

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
...seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 21:23:21 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>comments on literature. We have: Joyce, Nabokov, Borges -- three of
>the very greatest stylists of twentieth century literature. We have
>Burgess, who can write pretty well. We have Faulkner, who is a sort
>of anti-stylist (the only one in this list to make any sense as an
>example). Then we have Vonnegut, who is NOT interesting from a
>style point of view at all.

ARRRRRGGGGHHH!!! Please don't put words in my mouth...I didn't even
imply that: a) these writers were of comparable skill/style, or b)
that Palmer was even in the *class* of *any* of these writers...  I
could have named many less well known exmples, but most people have
read at least one of the authors I named, and are likely to
recognize the books I am alluding to. This has the undesireable
effect of associating Palmer with them...que sera.

I was replying to a specific complaint that his style was *grating*
and noted that other authors have used even more grating styles to
good effect. All of the authors I mentioned have on occasion (or
frequently) used styles that are intentionally annoying. I was using
this as an *example*, not a yardstick. I happen to think that the
particularly *grating* style that Palmer used was *interesting*,
*consistant*, and *effective*. (not particularly *profound*)

I would also take exception to your statement that Vonnegut is not
interesting from a stylistic point of view...but that is a different
matter entirely. (If you feel like persuing this discussion, I think
we could spare USENET the trouble, don't you?)

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
...seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 86 12:13:55 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence

   Before we again forget about Palmer's "Emergence", I think it
would be fun to analyze it from another point of view. Books in
which the characters are more brilliant than the author often suffer
from verisimilitude problems.  This can get to be really silly when
they are far more brilliant than anybody (look at Poul Anderson's
"Brain Wave", for an example). "Emergence" has some of this, and in
particular has the problem badly in what could be called the "if
you're so smart, why can't you see the obvious" mode. The
Ubermenschen in this book are quite bright (in the upper part of the
range normal to us humans). They should be able to draw any obvious
conclusions. But ...

    We find that they are much more remarkable in areas other than
intellectual brilliance. They never get sick, even though h. sap
with all his years of evolution behind him does. They have a much
more acute sense of hearing and smell. Even more astonishingly,
*they see into the ultraviolet and far into the infrared*!! These
are clearly all separate changes in the genetic code, and some at
least (the last one clearly) are not just minor changes, but massive
re-write jobs. It is quite obviously not plausible to assume that
this happened fortuitously. The clear implication is that some
unknown agency (I propose a black monolith) has been deliberately
tampering with human evolution.

     What can we deduce about this agency X? Quite a bit, actually.
We know they know a lot about genetics, and knew it back in the
nineteenth century. Therefore, they are apparently not human beings.
They know about telepathy with high probability, since this is one
of their induced changes.  It is likely they have applied their gene
technology to themselves, and are telepathic and possess other
unusual abilities. They are quite ruthless, since one of their
genetic change vectors was the Spanish Influenza epidemic, which
killed millions. Since we know they are ruthless, with high
probability we can infer they are the ultimate cause of the war
which exterminated "normal" humanity. Probably they still control
the Soviet fanatics which exterminated the human race. Quite
possibly they have agents among the "hominem" group. Probably the
bomb would never have gone off, though it is possible they are
merely observing at this point, to see who wins the "hominem" vs
homo sap game they have set up. All of this is pretty obvious with a
little thought, but none of these superior humans ever figured any
of it out. Ha!

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 86 23:33:43 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Perry Rhodan vs Gor (Let's hear it for PR :-)

>From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch)
>Of course the place that Gor has earned is in the sub-basement
>right next to the Perry Rhodan collection.....

Not fair!  Speaking as someone who has all the American PR's (even
after Ace dropped them), I can say that while PR was the space opera
equivalent of the soaps, it was generally readable and sometimes
even good.  Since the authorship rotated, the individual writers
didn't have to totally write themselves into the ground, and a few
were consistently interesting (Voltz? though his books never
advanced the main plot much).

I'm certainly not claiming greatness for these books, but if you
could ignore Forry Ackerman's packaging and just read the main story
they could be quite engaging.  (I still wonder sometimes what
happened..not that I'll ever learn German).

Gor on the other hand now...

Uncontritely,
Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Nov 86 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #384
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 384

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Adams & Wolfe (2 msgs) &
                          Sentient Computer Stories (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 03:38:58 GMT
From: tekchips!marlinw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Marlin Wilson)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

The radio show came first, then (I think) a record, then the books.
Various versions abound -- Adams details the chronology and
metamorphasis in the hardbound version incorporating the first three
books of the triology.  I heard a rumor that Adams did NOT like the
TV version and that a movie version was in the works.  But since I
heard about the movie ages ago (>2 yrs?), I have doubts that we'll
see it.

Marlin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 86 17:41:02 GMT
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Getting into Wolfe, &c.

Some random points...

>> If you want to give Wolfe a short term and interesting trial read
>> _The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_.
> Or try "The Fourth Head of Cerberus".

Or Gene Wolfe's Book of Days.  Actually, I don't think The 5th Head
of Cerberus is representative.  One might well like his other stuff
and dislike this, for example.

Free Live Free is a fairly good book... until the ending.  I won't
give it away, but I was *not* impressed.

Re Soldier of the Mist, Don Seeley writes:
> Wolfe has assumed a very difficult task in presenting a
> protagonist who is incapable of any action which requires
> long-range planning...

It is certainly true that this is difficult, and many writers of
less ability than Wolfe would fail to bring it off.  Indeed, the
best accounts of alien or altered modes of being (I'm not quite sure
what term to use here) are usually found outside Science Fiction.

One example, and one that connects in some ways with Soldier, is
Julian Jaynes' The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the
Bichameral Mind.  Jaynes' thesis is (in part) that Greeks of the
period written about in the Iliad were not conscious.  They were,
for example, incapable of conscious long-range planning.  Instead,
they were told what to do by hallucinated gods.  You don't have to
agree with this notion to find the book interesting: read it as
fiction if you prefer.  Jaynes does a much better job of explaining
an alien (to us) mode of existence than most Science Fiction
authors, who generally give everything an inner life more or less
like ours.

I feel this is an important point, and it comes up, in various
forms, fairly often in SF-Lovers.  For example, there was the recent
remark that the characters in Star Trek are just like us but with
starships.  Or we might recall LeGuin's criticism of fantasy in
which only the setting isn't 20th century -- the characters are,
again, just like us.  Sometimes, of course, we want the characters,
or at least some of them, to be like us, to represent our values and
culture in the encounter with alien things.  This is what happens in
Star Trek, and in the countless stories that first whisk a
contemporary protagonist to a distant place, time, or universe.  But
when they get there, the alien things really should be alien.  Too
often they are not.

A similar criticism applies to many of the human societies
constructed by Science Fiction.  Asimov is a frequent offender here.
Thousands of years in the future, after the rise and fall of a
galactic empire, we find a culture in many ways nearly identical to
the 50's American vision of itself.  The differences that do exist
are just on the surface even when the social structures are
supposedly very different, as if the inner life of a feudal serf
would be the same as that of a 1980's college student.

But to be fair, we often fail as readers to notice all that's there.
During the long Tolkein discussion, one of the most revealing
comments (to me) was the following from Alastair Milne:

> PS. For a bit of perspective on how much difference Elvish
> longevity might make, look at the geneology tree in Silmarillion
> that includes Elros and Elrond.  From Elrond a line goes down to
> his daughter Arwen, with an = sign indicating her marriage to
> Aragorn.  Now for Aragorn's descent: starting with Elros, Elrond's
> half-brother, crammed into the space available for them are "all
> the kings of Numenor, all the kings of Gondor, rangers of Arnor"
> (essentially), sharing the stretch of time that, on Elrond's side,
> is Arwen's alone.  Is it any wonder that the Elves view the world
> differently?

This is something I already knew, if I thought about it; but it
didn't really have any significance for me until I read this
message.  To me, the most useful SF-Lovers messages are the ones,
like this, that let me see something that I would otherwise have
missed.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 03:19:48 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's SotM and "Bicameral Mind"

Re the publishing difficulties with SOLDIER OF THE MIST...  The
basic problem was that the Tor hardcover of FREE LIVE FREE didn't
sell too well.  I haven't seen it remaindered (if I do, I'll pick up
a spare copy, I suppose) but evidently the sales were weak enough
that Tor decided to limit the printing of SOLDIER OF THE MIST.  To
Tor's surprise, the initial printing was sold out in October -- for
a book scheduled in November!  This gave some specialty bookstores
trouble, but in the end it must not have been too big a problem; I
saw an appreciable pile of copies at the Other Change of Hobbit in
Berkeley a few weeks ago and I got my own copy without any hassles
from Mark Ziesing's store in Connecticut.  Tor may run another
printing, too.  If you want the hardcover, I don't think you'll have
to murder to get it.  Compare this experience to what happened to me
when I tried to buy a hardcover of SHADOW OF THE TORTURER when it
first came out -- I ended up having to back-order it from the
publisher and waited for months.  (That was before I learned about
mail-order specialty shops!)

I don't know whether Wolfe had in mind Julian Jaynes' ORIGINS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS (I've not read this, so forgive me if the name or
title is wrong) when he wrote MIST.  If he did, he may be turning
the book on its head, because the magical creatures MIST portrays
seem to be more than just the imaginings of Latro, the soldier...

If Wolfe was thinking about psychology when he wrote MIST, surely
one particular work in the field was an influence: A. R. Luria's THE
MAN WITH A SHATTERED WORLD.  It seems to me that I must have read
this once, but I don't remember it(!) -- that makes another book
I'll have to track down before I read the next volume in Wolfe's
series.  I do have Luria's autobiography, THE MAKING OF MIND: A
PERSONAL ACCOUNT OF SOVIET PSYCHOLOGY, and this book contains a
summary of the other work.  Here's a telling quote (p. 184):

   'A bombshell wounded a young man, destroying the parietal lobe of
   the left hemisphere of his brain.  His whole world was shattered.
   He forgot his name, his address.  All words disappeared.  As he
   described it later: "Because of that wound I'd become an abnormal
   person...  I was abnormal because I had a huge amount of amnesia
   and for a long time didn't even have any traces of memories...
   I'm in a fog all the time, like a heavy half-sleep.  My memory's
   a blank.  I can't think of a single word.  All that flashes
   through my mind are images, hazy visions that suddenly appear and
   just as suddenly disappear, giving way to fresh images.  But I
   simply can't understand or remember what these mean."'

The comment about the fog may just be an amazing coincidence, or it
may not.  It's interesting that this patient, named Zassetsky, kept
a diary as a therapeutic aid.  (Another coincidence that perhaps
isn't: Luria's other popular book was THE MIND OF A MNEMONIST, about
a man who had an absolutely amazingly accurate memory.  Does this
remind you of another famous character of Wolfe's?)

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 23:05:29 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

Another excellent novel by James P. Hogan is "The Two Faces of
Tomorrow" (this would be category 1).  The sentinent computer is the
object of this novel.

He (Hogan) also *uses* a resonably sentinent computer in his
"Minerva" trilogy, perticularly in the 2nd book, "The Gentle Giants
of Ganymead"; again in his novel "Voyage From Yesteryear", a
sentinent computer plays a big role.

"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on a
sentinent computer.

kim
UUCP:  {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim
DDD:   408-746-8462
USPS:  Amdahl Corp.  M/S 249,  1250 E. Arques Av,  Sunnyvale, CA 94086

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 07:14 EST
From: OCONNOR DENNIS MICHAEL        <OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Comprehensive ( not canonical ) list of Sentinent Computer
Subject: Stories

   Many of the stories of Cordwainer Smith include sentinent
computers, in various roles of importance. ( They also include
robots, but maintain a distinct difference between the two. ) A
computer figures importantly in _Norstrilla_, has the place of a
god/oracle in _Alpha-Ralpha Boulevard_, and causes a social
revolution to begin ( that will take hundreds of years to complete )
through D'Joan, in what I think is entittled _The Dead Lady of Clown
Town_.
   Anyone who hasn't read Cordwainer Smith should do so. In my
opinion his books and stories are some of the best SF ever written,
and none of them are dreck ( usually even good authors produce some
dreck ). But avoid _The Planet Buyer_ and _The Underpeople_, which
are editor-hacked-upo versions of _Norstrilla_. Unfortunately I
don't remember all the books' names...

Dennis O'Connor

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 04:05:34 GMT
From: desj@brahms (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes:
>"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on a
>sentient computer.

   ?????

   This novel is remarkable for the complete lack of computer
technology.  I don't remember anything smarter than an autopilot.
Are you thinking of a different book?

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 16:39:17 GMT
From: venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los
Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems
played an integral role.  I forgot the author (and am not 100 % sure
I got the title right) but since I remember it at all, it must have
been pretty good.  (Assuming of course that my taste in SF is good.
Let us assume so for the sake of argument).

Rudy Vener
...seismo!csv.rpi.edu!venerar

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 14:12:50 GMT
From: rti-sel!rcb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Random)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

Really people!!!!! How about an early novel about intelligent
computers

   Colossus (spelling uncertain)
   (I can't remember the second book but it had Colossus in title)
   Colossus and the Crab

The story starts with a computer controlling the US defence network
that becomes intelligent, joins up with it's Russian counterpart and
decides that it should run the world.

Randy Buckland
Research Triangle Institute
...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 10:26:00 GMT
From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list

   Don't forget "Michaelmas" by Algis Budrys - this for the
"sentient computer" category.

David Allsopp

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 22:21:12 GMT
From: chapman@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Brent Chapman;;;;0000)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) writes:
>There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los
>Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems
>played an integral role.  I forgot the author (and am not 100 %
>sure I got the title right) but since I remember it at all, it must
>have been pretty good.

You got the title right (congratulations :-), and are also right in
stating that it is a pretty good book.

OoF is by none other than Niven and Pournelle.

Several of the protagonists are high-level executives who have been
equipped with _very_ expensive neural implants to allow them to tie
directly into their computers.

This book is, by the way, the source of the now-infamous line,
"Think of it as evolution in action."

One of the funniest things I have ever read of is the way in which
the arcology (called Todos Santos, if I remember correctly) deals
with would-be suicides who would like to jump off the arcology's
roof.

Check it out...

Brent Chapman
chapman@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!eris!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 86 19:16:21 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes:
>"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on a
>sentinent computer.

   It does? I sure don't remember one. I remember some very powerful
shipboard computers and some neat handheld personal terminals, but
nothing about a sentient computer. Can you give some details?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 21:32:53 GMT
From: csun!aeusesef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

Another one I haven't seen mentioned is _Syzygy_, by Frederick Pohl.
It fits in one of the two categories, but I can't say which without
ruining the ending of the book (it's a surprise 8-)).  Pretty frood
book.

Sean Fagan
aeusesef@csun.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 86 11:51:47 GMT
From: adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) writes:
>There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los
>Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems
>played an integral role.  I forgot the author (and am not 100 %
>sure I got the title right) but since I remember it at all, it must
>have been pretty good.  (Assuming of course that my taste in SF is
>good. Let us assume so for the sake of argument).

     The book was written by Larry Niven and features a computer
called Millie. The computer is not sentient but certain members of
the arcology management have brain implants allowing them to access
data directly from the computer or even to 'talk' to others with
implants via Millie. This form of communication was called
'sub-vocalisation'.

Tony Thomas
adt.ukc.ac.uk
Computing Department,
University of Kent,
Canterbury,
Kent.
England.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 86 08:46:21 GMT
From: argus!ken@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ng)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Random) writes:
>Really people!!!!! How about an early novel about intelligent
>computers
>   Colossus (spelling uncertain)
>   (I can't remember the second book but it had Colossus in title)
>   Colossus and the Crab

It's "The Fall of Colossus"

Kenneth Ng: Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey  07102
uucp !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken
     !psuvax1!cmcl2!ciap!andromeda!argus!ken
bitnet(prefered) ken@orion.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Nov 86 0929-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #385
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 385

Today's Topics:

              Books - Beckett & Kahn & Kube-McDowell &
                      Norwood & Steakley & 
                      Post Holocaust (2 msgs) &
                      Messages from Aliens,
              Television - Doctor Who & Star Trek & Tripods

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 03:03:26 GMT
From: weemba@brahms (Matthew P Wiener)
Subject: Strange points of view

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>

>> Wolfe has assumed a very difficult task in presenting a
>> protagonist who is incapable of any action which requires
>> long-range planning...
>It is certainly true that this is difficult, and many writers of
>less ability than Wolfe would fail to bring it off.  Indeed, the
>best accounts of alien or altered modes of being (I'm not quite
>sure what term to use here) are usually found outside Science
>Fiction.

If you want truly strange "alien or altered" modes of being, try
reading some of the novels of Samuel Beckett.  _Watt_, _The
Unnameable_, and _How It Is_ are practically unique regarding the
point of view presented.  Plot, if present, is completely
irrelevant.

I like to view Beckett as what should be called "philosophical
fiction" (phi-fi?).  _Watt_, for example, can be read as an answer
to the question of what the world would be like if logical
positivism were in fact correct.  The result is astonishing.

Very few writers can do this sort of stuff well.  The late J L
Borges was probably the most famous at this genre.  S Lem, despite
the fact that he is usually classified as sci-fi, is really phi-fi
at heart.

Matthew P Wiener
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 23:59:13 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels

warrenm@mmintl.UUCP (Warren McAllister) writes:

>WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME by James(?) Kahn
>part of a trilogy, can't remember the other ones :-]

The sequel to this is _Time's_Dark_Laughter_.  To the best of my
knowledge, there is no third in the series; it's hard to see how
there could be.  Quite good, although only peripherally a
post-holocaust novel.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 86 01:35:14 GMT
From: husc2!moews@rutgers.rutgers.edu (moews)
Subject: Re: _Enigma_ (Spoiler?)

From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
>... I'm the kind who has a subscription to "Analog" and doesn't
>like SF used as a vehicle by technologically illiterate English
>majors (but I do like Gene Wolfe). So, here are a few of my calls.
>Use your own salt.
>
>Michael P. Kube-McDowell, "Emprise", "Enigma", (& third book still
>to come): When I first started to read this, I almost moaned "Oh
>no, not another post-holocaust,
>technology-screwed-us-let's-get-pastoral story ...". Well, it
>isn't. It is about the rebuilding that follows, under the pressure
>of future physical contact with the aliens discovered early in the
>first book. The politics are believable, and the story moves well.

   Speaking of technological illiteracy, I think there's a MAJOR
technical blooper in _Enigma_.  On p. 330, the author describes the
propulsion method for an STL starship by saying that ice was reduced
to hydrogen and oxygen, using solar heat near the sun and chemical
catalysis further out, and that the hydrogen and oxygen were then
burnt in a rocket engine to move the ship.  What's wrong with this?

(1) Catalysis by itself can't make an energetically unfavorable
reaction like the dissociation of water proceed.  Extra energy is
needed; where it comes from is never mentioned in the book.

(2) Even if we could magically dissociate water without using
energy, this starship drive amounts to just a hydrogen-oxygen
rocket, like the Space Shuttle, and this isn't very high-performance
(to say the least).  In _Enigma_, these starships is said to be
launched in the Pleistocene; since the Pleistocene started in
1,000,000 B.P., and since _Enigma_ occurs in the near future, the
transit time is <= 1,000,000 years.  The remains of one of these
starships are found at 7 Hercules.  7 Hercules has a parallax of
0.011 arc seconds, putting it ~300 light-years away; thus our
starship must fly at >= 0.00033 c = 100 km/sec.  The exhaust
velocity of a hydrogen-oxygen rocket is about 5 km/sec; our ship's
mass-ratio thus has to be exp(2*100/5) [the factor of 2 comes from
the fact that we have to first acclerate then declerate], or exp(40)
~= 10^17; this is impractical to say the least.

   Did anyone else notice this?  What did you think?  This seems
like a real major flaw (it brings the technical credibility of the
book down to the level of Dr. Who :-) ) Why do authors have to make
up stupid stardrives when you can get any number of working ones
from _Journal_of_the_British_Interplanetary_Society_ or whatever?
Why?

David Moews
moews@husc4.harvard.edu
...!harvard!husc4!moews

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 86 01:14:44 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Dying main characters (was: Re: EMERGENCE)

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>When was the last time you read a book in which the
>narrator/protagonist/ main character died before the end? (that is,
>assuming the book is not *about* the charater's death) I admit that
>a few examples do exist, but they are rare enough to be ignorable.
>In *this* sense...almost *every* book is predictable.

   The last one that comes to my mind is "Planet of Flowers" by
Warren Norwood (the last book in the "Windhover Tapes" series)(At
least the last one written to date.) If you havn't looked up this
Ft. Worth writer then you definitely should. This series was better
than I had hoped when I first picked it up, I expected space opera,
but what I got was a well plotted character oriented story. Look it
up sometime.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 86 21:31:31 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: "Armor" by John Steakley

> S.R-FREUNDLICH@KLA.WESLYN (Rob Freundlich)
> This sounds an awful lot like _Starship Troopers_, by (I think)
> Heinlein.  Anyone who's read it have any comment?

It is clear that Steakley was inviting comparison to ST.  Too many
details are identical, such as the armor, the military life, the
terms for and nature of the enemy forces, the fact that Buenos Aires
was nuked in each book, and so on.  There were also striking
contrasts.  At a fundamental level, _Armor_ was about as similar to
ST as _Rite_of_Passage_ was to _Podkayne_of_Mars_.  And I suspect
for similar reasons.  That is, I would guess that Steakly and
Panshin wanted to tell the same story as ST and PoM (respectively),
but wanted to convey a completely different perspective.

Personally, I preferred RoP to PoM by quite a lot, but ST to A by a
narrow margin.  But then I suspect that my tastes are peculiar.  In
neither case, however, would I have wanted to miss the re-telling.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 16:55:41 GMT
From: ulowell!page@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Page)
Subject: Re: Plan 7 / Level 7

abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU writes:
>   Impressive story (or my memory of earlier reads is better), and
>very depressing, especially for the kid I was. Worthy of a reprint
>too.

I think it was one of the first of the nuclear horror stories,
because many people say ``I read it a long time ago -- VERY
horrifying'' and such.  A couple of years ago I had our library
track down the book, and got to read it.  The story IS good (and
short) although cliched in parts.  The writing and characterization
is stiff, but that may be because it was translated, I don't know.

If anyone were interested in hunting for it now, I'd say we're jaded
and desensitized enough about nuclear war that this book would not
make much of an impact.  The ideas will not be new by now, although
they may have been when the book was written.

Instead, I recommend Brin's latest book, _The Postman_.

Bob Page, U of Lowell CS Dept
Lowell MA 01854 USA
UUCP: wanginst!ulowell!page
VOX:  +1 617 452 5000 x2976

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 00:09:50 GMT
From: mmintl!warrenm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Warren McAllister)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels

In connection with my recent posting re. the above, I would like to
thank Tovah Hollander for her Email suggesting some interesting
reading :

EARTH ABIDES by George R. Stewart
ON THE BEACH by Nevil Shute
ALAS, BABYLON by Pat Frank
EMERGENCE by David(?) Palmer
DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS by John Wyndham
A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ by Walter Miller
THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson
RE-BIRTH or THE CHRYSALIDS by John Wyndham
FISKADORO by ?? (published in '85 or '86)

If I may add some of my own favourites :

THE AMTRAK WARS by Patrick Tilley - anyone know if #3 is out yet ?
HEIRO'S JOURNEY by Sterling Lanier
THE DEATH OF GRASS
THE WORLD IN WINTER
WRINKLE IN THE SKIN
  all by John Christopher (I think)
LUCIFER'S HAMMER by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

and one of the best;

WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME by James(?) Kahn
 part of a trilogy, can't remember the other ones :-]

Keep those titles a comin' !
Warren McAllister

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 03:52:04 est
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ECE.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Message-from-aliens books

   One of the attractions of this digest, for me, is calling
attention to books I might otherwise pass up, given the terrible
state of backcover blurb writing. Of course there are the late calls
(now I can't find Steakley's "Armor", dammit) and the bad calls
(like the P.Anthony I bought in spite of my misgivings). I'm the
kind who has a subscription to "Analog" and doesn't like SF used as
a vehicle by technologically illiterate English majors (but I do
like Gene Wolfe). So, here are a few of my calls. Use your own salt.

Michael P. Kube-McDowell, "Emprise", "Enigma", (& third book still
to come): When I first started to read this, I almost moaned "Oh no,
not another post-holocaust, technology-screwed-us-let's-get-pastoral
story ...". Well, it isn't. It is about the rebuilding that follows,
under the pressure of future physical contact with the aliens
discovered early in the first book. The politics are believable, and
the story moves well.

Donald Moffit, "The Genesis Quest". His earlier book, "The Jupiter
Theft", featured humans living among (captured by) tri-symmetrical
aliens who were busy using Jupiter for a stepping stone to the next
star. This one features humans recreated from information alone,
living among the penta-symmetrical aliens of a nearby (37
Meg-light-years ...) galaxy. The story is partly related to a
Stalinist style splinter group that wants human supremacy. The
politics are a little stiff (given that humans were born into an
alien culture, they are too close to current Earth style), and some
scientific miracles are a bit too sudden. But it is still a very
readable story. Oh, yes, this is "To be continued" in the next book,
"coming out next month", which you only find out in the last page.
Bad style, DelRey.

Jack McDevitt "The Hercules Text". This is the latest Ace special,
and Terry Carr is doing a fair job. It is about the reception of an
alien signal, in two phases: an attention-getter (pulsar
modulation), and the message itself, weeks later. The point of the
story is more about "What do we do with this" than the traditional
"How do we decode this". As a matter of fact, the decoding of the
message is pitifully glossed over, with some mumbling about self
generating programs. The real story is good enough, though, with the
scientists in the NASA center suffering from peer-pressure due to
the hushing-up, late and piecemeal disclosures forced on them by the
government. Interestingly, the main character is an administrator,
instead of a scientist. Worth your $3.50.

You may have noticed all these stories are derived from the
message-from-aliens concept, but have very different twists. Well,
that's why we read SF instead of westerns or mysteries (or
"Literature", ack-pfst), isn't it ? Have fun.

Tony
abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu
E.C.E. Dept, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 21:17 EST
From: TMPLee@DOCKMASTER.ARPA
Subject: Query about Ian Marter report

My son, who is president of one of the Minneapolis/St.  Paul Dr.
Who fan clubs, just received a report from "usually reliable
sources" that Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan in the Baker
episodes and who has done some of the novelizations, died on October
29th.  Can anyone, especially in the UK, who reads this Digest
confirm that and supply more details?  Please reply directly since I
no longer receive the SFL-Digest and it is not posted on this
system.  (I tried ftp'ing the most current volume from Rutgers but
couldn't seem to get it all.)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 86 22:09:01 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Moral Themes in Star Trek

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU says:
>PS.  I must confess that I am highly sceptical of the idea of a
>Star Trek episode having a moral, for the simple reason that the
>dramatic quality was never high enough to give a real presentation
>of a problem.  To my mind, Star Trek is for fun.  It isn't deep
>enough, doesn't present enough evidence, doesn't work through the
>issues enough to be considered a presentor of moral values.

I suggest you take a look at the following Star Trek episodes:

   Where No Man Has Gone Before
   Balance of Terror
   Miri
   The Conscience of the King
   Arena
   The Return of the Archons
   A Taste of Armageddon
   The Devil in the Dark
   Errand of Mercy
   Operation:  Annihilate!
   The Doomsday Machine
   Mirror, Mirror
   Bread and Circuses
   Journey to Babel
   A Private Little War
   The Gamesters of Triskelion
   Obsession
   Return to Tomorrow
   Patterns of Force
   The Ultimate Computer
   Assignment:  Earth
   Spectre of the Gun
   Is There in Truth No Beauty?
   For the World is Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky
   The Day of the Dove
   Plato's Stepchildren
   Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
   The Cloudminders

  ...all of which had very obvious moral/ethical themes.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 16:44:07 GMT
From: ukecc!grant@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Miles)
Subject: T.V. series and books about The Tripods by J. Christoper

Has anyone seen a series on PBS called "The Tripods"? It is made by
England and Australia, and is a television adaptation of J.
Christoper's trilogy about the tripods. The series is excellent, i
think, but I have yet to see all of the story on TV. Each "season"
is 13 episodes, and there are 3 seasons (the whole story is chopped
into 3 pieces). I do not know if the BBC (British Broadcasting Corp)
has made the 3 chunk of the story.

I have seen the first 2 chunks, and am eagerly awaiting the third.
Perhaps at this point a little explanation of the basic story would
be in order.  The tripods are giant 3 legged machines that walk the
lands of the world keeping order. The story is set when society has
crumbled and man has lost all forms of technology. (Sort of middle
ages..horses, little villages..  markets). When a human reaches
adulthood, he is taken inside a tripod, where a metal cap is fitted
into the skin close to the skull. This "cap" gives the tripods
control over their minds. A man with a cap is loyal to the tripods,
he thinks no evil thoughts of destroying the tripods.

The story evolves around 2 boys who afraid of being capped, and one
day meet a strange man. The man tells of a place (Switzerland in our
modern world), where a group of free men live (uncapped), and who
wage war against the tripods and their grip on the world. The boys
decide to go on a long voyage across europe to join these band of
rebels. That's the story..If anyone has any views/questions
/comments/info on the series please post here..Thanx.

Miles
....ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!grant

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Nov 86 0955-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #386
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 386

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Time Travel (8 msgs) &
                       Anachronisms & Buckaroo Banzai &
                       Weapons Policies & Star Trek Stamp &
                       Drinks in SF Stories (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 86 20:02:06 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: time travel

From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
>Something that most people seem not to have considered in their
>"person dropped back in time" remarks. What about personal jewelry?
>While this probably wouldn't last long, it might be enough to get
>you meals for the first few days.  Comments?

I'd guess you lose your jewelry the first time you tried to pawn
some off, unless you looked as if you could keep it.

....!ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 86 03:32:42 GMT
From: amdcad!csanders@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Craig S. Anderson)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of
>>modern medical and dental care.  It would be a shame to die of
>>appendicitis or pneumonia (add penicillin to the invention list)
>>or other curable problems.
>
>It is clear that as generations pass, diseases tend to become less
>virulent.  There are two obvious mechanisms for this: people evolve
>to become more resistant to the disease, and the disease evolves to
>become less harmful.

The main reasons why some major diseases (like smallpox, plague)
aren't seen anymore in the West are better sanitation, clean
drinking water, vaccines to prevent people from getting sick, and
drugs to cure those who are afflicted and prevent them from
spreading the disease.

>(Being deadly is a distinct disadvantage for a disease -- better if
>it can live in its host without killing it.)  It is not clear just
>what the balance is between these two mechanisms.

Actually, most 'successful' diseases caused by bacteria, viruses and
the like survive by infecting other organisms (vectors) which then
transmit the disease to a human.  As long as harmful organisms are
able to successfully spread, it matters little whether or not the
host eventually dies, as long as s/he has spread it to others.

I suspect that a time traveller would be more susceptible to disease
than a person who lives in that time period, but given the amount of
people who died from the diseases anyway I don't think the risk is
that much greater.

Craig Anderson
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
(408) 749-3007
UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!csanders

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 11:14:26 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: Time travel

Probably the two most readily marketable skills that the average
twentieth century person has that most didn't have in the 1st thru
18th century are literacy and mathematical skills.  Especially the
math.  Doing math in your head was almost unheard of.  You might
start as a bookkeeper for a small business, and move your way up as
you gain reputation, and perhaps get the attention of a lord (they
were terrible at finance).  There is always tax cheating, too.  Who
knows, maybe you could be Royal Treasurer.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 01:42:52 GMT
From: nikhefk!keeshu@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kees Huyser)
Subject: Re: time travel

From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
>Something that most people seem not to have considered in their
>"person dropped back in time" remarks. What about personal jewelry?
>While this probably wouldn't last long, it might be enough to get
>you meals for the first few days.  Comments?

It might be enough to get your throat cut in the fist few days....
As it happens people in earlier civilisations were not 'quite' the
nice people we know now who walk in dark parks and streets. Try
walking in the Vondelpark (Amsterdam, the Netherlands) at 02:00 AM
any night, and I promise you you'll have more than your share of
trouble. If you insist on taking jewelry with you, I suggest you
also take a gun or sword with you to make sure the personal jewelry
stays YOUR personal jewelry.

Kees Huyser
National Institute for Nuclear and High Energy Physics
PO Box 4395; 1009 AJ; Amsterdam The Netherlands
UUCP : keeshu@nikhefk.UUCP
      {[wherever]!seismo}!mcvax!keeshu@nikhefk.UUCP
BITNET: U00212@HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 86 13:50:55 GMT
From: clunker!mary@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

>I think the thing most people would miss most would be the lack of
>modern medical and dental care.

You could include in that list the lack of visual care.  If you're
one of the many people who use some sort of corrective lenses, you'd
be in deep trouble if you were marooned in a time which didn't have
the technology to maintain your lenses.  For example, what if you
got stuck in the Middle Ages without the sterilizer for your soft
contact lenses?  If you had a pair of glasses as a backup and just
happened to have them with you, you'd be a little better off, but
you would still run the risk of having the glasses break with no
means of replacing them.  You could, of course, try to reinvent the
technology, but it would be tough....

Mary Shurtleff
....decvax!bunker!clunker!mary
....ittatc!bunker!clunker!mary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 86 23:34 CST
From: RSaunders@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: misc: time travel

I wonder to what degree I would really be interested in getting rich
in the 17th century.

With a lot of money I would be forced to live the lifestyle of a
17th century noble.  Too many of them got killed by their
associates, in fact I suspect this is the only really reasonable way
to get rich.  Admittedly my 20th century schooling might make me an
extremely good assassin, making nitro-glycerin or better gun-cotton,
I wouldn't enjoy it.

I would prefer to be cast in the role of a traveling entertainer.
Here you can amaze people with the tricks you do, rather than try to
change their lives.  Combine my algorithmic skills with a little
high-school Skinnerism and teach a chicken to win at tic-tac-toe.
Bet on the chicken until I get run out of town.  Better yet build a
machine to do it, remember Babbage's use of cards to control weaving
machines.  Dauble in easy medicine, wine on cuts speeds healing.
Take credit for fever's running their course.  Don't get into
situations where you have to cure the king of cancer.  Don't try to
get into court, the life is boring and you get killed when power
changes hands.  If you can't live without being the king's friend,
sell yourself as a cryptographer, any spy novel will teach you
enough to use your statistic's skills to crack any substitution
codes of the era.  Make the code machine described in the book and
sell it to both sides.

Other inventions to make: clothes washing machine (the wringer
kind), typewriter (and please don't use QWERTY), flush toilet (was
mentioned before), and shock-absorber for carriages (good
low-precision part).

Randy Saunders

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 18:08:58 GMT
From: dciem!msb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: making it rich 'back in time'

Ben Bishop (T.SAILOR%DEEP-THOUGHT@EDDIE.MIT.EDU) writes:
> One extremely simple way to get rich in the recent (more than 1 or
> 2 hundred years ago, less than thousand) past is aluminum.
>
> Hide yourself somewhere, build a generator, find bauxite (they
> knew what it was) and PRESTO more aluminum than an entire country.
> Getting to the point of having that generator might be tough ...

Not only that, but you're missing two steps.  First, bauxite refers
to either Al(OH)3 or AlOOH; what you electrolyze to get aluminum is
alumina, Al2O3.  (I must admit to not knowing what will happen if
you try to electrolyze bauxite; but both the inventors of the
process [Hall and Heroult, independently] and modern plants use
alumina.)

The way alumina is prepared these days is a process invented in 1888
by Bayer: "The bauxite first is reacted with hot caustic which
dissolves the Al2O3 . xH2O to form sodium aluminate.  The solution
is filtered hot, then cooled and agitated with the addition of a
small quantity of aluminum hydrate to enhance the precipitation of
the crystalline hydrate.  After filtration, the cake is kiln-dried
at 1100 C to remove H2O and yield Al2O3."  [ Van Nostrand's
Scientific Encyclopedia, 6th ed.]

Second, before you can electrolyze the alumina, you have to dissolve
it in cryolite (AlF3 . 3NaF), the solvent medium for the
electrolysis.  (You also have to heat it to 960 C.)  Nowadays
synthetic cryolite is used, but you'd have to find the natural
stuff... and [according to Asimov's New Guide to Science] the
principal deposits are in Greenland...

In another message, Randy Saunders (RSaunders.TCSC@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)
referred to Babbage's punch card loom.  Of course, this should be
Jacquard.

Marf Brader
utzoo!dciem!msb

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 20:55:33 GMT
From: ncoast!wb8foz@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Lesher)
Subject: Re: Time-traveling musician

ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>he or she could invent his instrument...in fact, maybe Stradivarius
>was a modern time traveller who had studied how to make his violins
>like Stradivarius did! .......etc.....

Only problem is, NOVA did a excellent show about 2 years ago about
the fact we still do not know what make a violin sound the way it
does, or why Stradivarius could make such good ones. Needless to
say, those who own one are not keen on dissecting it to try to find
out why is is so superior.

decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!wb8foz
ncoast!wb8foz@case.csnet
ncoast!wb8foz%case.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 86 12:22:09 est
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Retroactive Anachronisms

More enjoyable than out-and-out scientific bloopers are predictions
so timid and conservative (in retrospect) that they now look like
bloopers.  I think this ground was covered last year (before I
started reading this bboard).  Still, here are my two favorites.

The runner-up is Marion Zimmer Bradley's "The Brass Dragon" in which
the alien pulls out a slide rule and explains: The Galactic slide
rule is the same, in principle, as the Terrestrial one -- though
more sophisticated, of course -- so Galactics use Earth slide rules
when visiting, so as not to attract attention.

The best is Edmond Hamilton's "The Star Kings", wherein, on the
bridge of a space-battleship of 200,000 AD we see the effects of two
hundred millenia of technological progress: the vacuum tubes are
twenty feet long!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 86 12:23:18 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Banzai Institute address
Cc: yduJ@sri-kl.arpa

Yes, The Banzai Institute really does exist, and its FREE!  So, I
guess it really doesn't fit your purpose of dumping extra cash.
Join anyway.  I think they have a new address, but I don't have my
latest set of literature wiith me (at work).  So this is the old
address.

The Banzai Institute
c/o 20th Century Fox
P.O. Box 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90213

Brett Slocum
ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 86 12:33 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: twisted motives..

   One must wonder at times, what the motivation for carrying
weapons to conventions is anyway.  As a staffer at Boskones for the
past few years, I have on more than one occasion had to ask a bearer
of wepaons to kindly make it go away.  Some of them got very
indignant and on more than one occasion I had to sit through the
usual platitudes about how stupid weapons policies are and how their
costume just wasn't right without that 3 foot piece of metal at
their side.  Well, they seem so quick to anger, that they provide a
wonderful example of why weapons policies exist in the first place.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 86 12:48:08 EST
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Attempts to get ST commemorative stamp

From the Washington Talk page of the New York Times for Thursday,
11/13/86

STAMPS AND 'STAR TREK'

(deleted)

[Reproduced without permission.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 86 20:13:47 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Drinks in SF stories

Well, there's Romulan Ale, Saurian Brandy, Tranya(?), and "it's
green" from Star Trek. Anybody remember the ones I missed, besides
that Argelian multi-layered drink from "Wolf in the Fold?"

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 86 10:57:42 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Drinks mentioned in SF stories
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>

I just saw the Star Trek episode last night with the M-5
super-autopilot. About a half hour into it, Bones brings Kirk a
"prescription" in a wine glass, and claims to make the best
"Finnagle's Folly" in half the galaxy. (I may be mistaken, I didn't
it hear too well.)

Josh

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 07:14:29 GMT
From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John)
Subject: Re: Drinks in SF stories

ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>Well, there's Romulan Ale, Saurian Brandy, Tranya(?), and "it's
>green" from Star Trek. Anybody remember the ones I missed, besides
>that Argelian multi-layered drink from "Wolf in the Fold?"

Well, there's a Finnagle's Folly from The Ultimate Computer and
McCoy's brain-curing potion from The Tholian Web that mixes well
with Scotch...

Jim Griffith
griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvac!cory!griffith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Nov 86 0829-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #387
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Nov 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 387

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Adams (6 msgs),
                  Miscellaneous - Good vs Possible (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 00:19:06 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>> In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.
>> In the fourth book, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this
>> properly?
>
>... I thought that the mice (or somebody) merely recommisioned
>it's creation and the program it was supposed to run was simply
>restarted the split second after the other one ended.

One wonders where the backup copy of the "machine state" was kept.
How many miles of magnetic tape would it take?  Is there a massive
socket somewhere in Antarctica to plug the cable into?

Seriously, anyone who looks for sense and consistency in the HHG
has, I think, missed the point.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 21:52:09 GMT
From: c160-dq@zooey.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

I'm not sure if I remember this properly, but wasn't there a line in
the radio program (episode 2?) where Arthur was talking about how
this beautiful, wonderful girl "everything he'd been saving himself
up for" had been grabbed away by this dope...

Arthur: He said, "Hey, doll, is this guy boring you?  Come and talk
        to me.  I'm from another planet."

Ford:   Zaphod!

Arthur: Yes. He only had the one head and the two arms and he called
        himself Phil..*BUT*...

So, I guess Zaphod wasn't born with the extra head.  Either that or
it's detachable.

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 07:00:45 GMT
From: drp@lll-lcc.aRpA (David Preston)
Subject: Hitchhikers Guide Radio Transcript

The transcript of the radio series is out in book form.  I saw it in
a local B.Daltons so it is probably in B.Daltons everywhere.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 06:08:53 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

>   Hitchhiker originally came out in Britain as a radio series
>which aired here in the U.S. for a time on National Public Radio. I
>heard most of it, and it was easily as funny as the books. It is
>also out on record, but I don't know if the albums are true to the
>original script. The books came next, and of course the inevitable
>T.V.  series.  At any rate, (say, 3.2 MPH :-) ), I have heard that
>he was basically a household word in the U.K. long before anyone in
>the U.S. heard of him.  How credible that is I don't know.

The first radio series started in '79 (I think.  Give or take a
year).  There was a stage show in about '82.  The recordings of the
radio shows were released some time around then.  The TV shows
started in about '83.  The 4th book in the trilogy (sic) came out
last year.  The towel came out .... so yes, HHG and DG have had a
cult following for about 6 or 7 years, and have been household names
for 3 or 4 years.

I have been an HHG freak since hearing the very first show - I think
I have seen, heard or read every edition of every series/book/play
etc.  Be warned - the plots are NOT the same in the plays/books/TV
shows.  Similar yes, but with lots of subtle differences.  This
discussion could get very confused indeed!  For what it's worth, I
rate the radio series as the best.

[No spoiler warnings, 'cos discussions like this only mean anything
if you've already seen/heard/read it]

As far as I can tell, the mice commissioned the Magratheans to
recreate Earth MkII from the original plans.  (Magrathea was 'woken
up' to do this as a special job - they had mothballed themselves on
an index-linked basis "Until the galaxy is once again rich enough to
afford our services").  Slartibartfast explains all this (how MkI
was destroyed by the Vogons shortly before completion of the Great
Hack (sorry, Program), "I do the fjords, you know, the crinkly bits
round the edges.  I think they give such a baroque feel to a
continent" etc).

Can anyone tell me where the shoe-event horizon fits in to the
cosmic scale of things (I know the theory, but not its relevance)?
I always get confused about the giant statue of Arthur and Tea Cup,
the birds who can't say f**t etc.  And where does the phrase "Dent,
as in the Late Dent Arthur Dent" come from?  ("It's a kind of
threat.  I don't use them much myself, but I'm told they can be very
effective").

Basically, if you haven't read the books - DO SO.  It's a way of
life.  (With leather?)

Hugh
ARPA:   Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86  12:59:20 EST
From: drukman%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jonathan S. Drukman)
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide

I just was flipping through the digests and read a letter that
claimed that Arthur's mysterious ability to READ other languages as
well as understand them was an inconsistency.  Well, that's right
and it's wrong.

In the RADIO show, Arthur can read the inscriptions on the
Golgafrincham Sarcophagi - he and Ford are reeling off professions
and Arthur exclaims "Good god, this one's a dead hairdresser!"  So,
that's an inconsistency.

In the BOOK (2nd one), in the same scene, Arthur takes a look at the
plaque on the sarcophagus and is unable to read it because it looks
like "the tracks of a spider that's had one too many to drink of
whatever it is that spiders drink on a night out".  Ford of course
instantly recognizes it as an early form of Galactic Eezeereed, and
the hairdresser line is spoken by him.

Incidentally, in the Hitchhiker's Trilogy (Omnibus Edition), there's
a great intro by Doug Adams explaining the order of events and
origin of the series, etc.  He says that a lot of line switching was
done simply to save rewriting the dialogue.

For my money, the TV show sucked because Ford was horrible and
Trillian was totally unbelievable - played as a dizzy blonde when
it's been clearly stated in the books that she's dark (vaguely
Arabic looking) and devastatingly intelligent - all totally lost on
Sandra Dickinson's interpretation of the character.  The Radio Show
is excellent because they didn't have to suffer through cheap BBC
visual effects and could rely on the terrific voice
characterizations provided by the cast.  Also, there is a lot of
material in the radio shows that isn't found in ANY of the books.

One final note: the story that Arthur tells Fenchurch in _So
Long..._ about the biscuits (he's eating someone else's...) was told
to me (and several hundred others) at an MIT lecture a few years
back by Adams himself - BEFORE the book was written.  It really
happened to him in real life!

jon drukman
BITNET: drukman@umass
ARPANET: rms.g.jon%oz@mit-mc

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 86 14:22:05 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

> In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.  In
> the fourth, it's back.  Did Adams ever explain this properly?

Yes, he did. In the fourth book there is a whole ( albeit short )
chapter devoted to this. It is a little obscure, but runs along the
lines of: The dolphins, in their flight from the demolition of the
Earth, discovered an alternate Earth in the possibilities of
enfolded time, and joined it to the worldline of the previous Earth.
Their joining points being Arthur, Fenchurch and Wonko, which is why
they were presented with the glass fishbowls. "This bowl was brought
to you by the Society to Save the Humans"

> Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
> second head natural?  How is it that he had only one head when
> Arthur first met him (at the party)?

Both of Zaphod's heads are natural. The apparent lack of 2nd head at
the party is explained in the computer game. It was a fancy dress
party and Zaphod (Phil) went as a pirate. His parrot, however, was
kept on his shoulder in a cage, conveniently covered with a cloth.
The only really strange thing is that the parrot appears to
snore....

> And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series?
> Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken
> language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this
> causes several problems.

OK, so there are a couple of times where this could cause problems,
but these can be solved with a little thought. The only two cases
that spring to mind are when, on first entry to the Heart of Gold,
Arthur presses the inviting red button and the sign lights up saying
"Please do not press this button again", and also in the
Golgafrincham Ark Fleet, Ship B, Hold 7, when Arthur reads a plaque
announcing that the occupant of the coffin is a hairdresser. The
first can be accounted for by Eddie ( with Trillian's help),
reprogramming the signs to read in English, since Ford and Arthur
had been rescued from the destruction of the Earth, and Trillian had
already spoken with them.
  The second case is easily solved when you think who the
Golgafrinchams actually were... Arthur's ancestors. Is it really too
implausible to suggest that some of them, at least, spoke English
??? ( I know it's 2Myears in the past but this is fiction, right...)

> Replies of the form "Don't take it so seriously" cheerfully
> ignored.

Don't take it so seriously ? How can one not take the most
successful book EVER to have come out of the great publishing
corporations of Ursa Minor seriously.

> Is it true that _Hitchhiker_ is being movied?  I'm still waiting
> for a chance to see the TV segments.  (Saw most of the first one,
> then had to leave town.)

Sadly, the planned film is no more ( sympathetic "Aaaah" echoes
around net ) The Great Man Himself ( D.Adams, who else ) had a very
heated argument with the producers ( who wanted to do it in a
different style ) and the project has now been shelved indefinitely.
I hope he manages to find another backer and produce it himself.. if
would have been GREAT !

I hope this clears up these points for you...

Happy HitcHiking...

Sean Ellis
Reading University
ENGLAND

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 02:27:25 GMT
From: weemba@brahms (Matthew P Wiener)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>SF need not be proveably possible, but it should not be IMpossible.

If we're going to get to some agreement about what's IMpossible, now
and for all time, let's try some mathematical fiction for examples.

Looking through _Fantasia Mathematica_, I find several stories that
are literally IMpossible.  Martin Gardner's two contributions,
"No-Sided Professor" and "The Island of Five Colors" suffer not from
logical gaps but from weak writing.  In the hands of a Lem or a
Borges, these would have been profound masterpieces.

I like fiction to stimulate my mind.  If that requires an absolute
paradox to get the proper point across, then so be it.  Corny as
it was, I really liked Asimov's _The End of Eternity_, as it was the
first time travel paradox story that I ever read.  Asimov did a good
job of making it pseudo-plausible, enough so that I could smoothly
suspend disbelief and get on with the story.

(Side note to Keith Lynch--it is irrelevant to my point if time
travel per se is IMpossible or not.  What matters is what *I* the
reader believed when I read it.)

On the other other hand, I doubled up in laughter instantly when a
friend told me about Niven's _Ringworld_.  It's hard to suspend
disbelief when a writer makes such a major glaring error as the
basic setting of his book.  And I will never stop smirking at the
surfbunny morons that pass for genius mathematicians in Forward's
_The Flight of the Dragonfly_.

Why do you think people love Tolkein so much?  It's because it's
written so *well*, it's alive, the characters and tension and drama
are there.  The fact that a great ring of power is impossible is
irrelevant--it's a given of the Tolkein universe.

I get the impression--do flame me if I'm wrong--that a lot of people
like the hard sci-fi because they can't hack the hard science.  Sort
of like a science groupie.  Personally I still find Misner, Thorne &
Wheeler a lot more exciting than any sci-fi story about black holes,
even though it's more than a decade out of date.

It's like all those people who keep trying to figure out which
century Star Trek is in.  If you want to work it out, sure, but I
couldn't care.  It has no relevance to my enjoyment of the series.
Or even worse, the person who was trying to trap Douglas Adams'
_Hitchhiker_ trilogy in a contradiction.  Uh huh, sure.

Matthew P Wiener
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 22:36:04 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:

>SF need not be proveably possible, but it should not be IMpossible.

Then you have to throw out a lot of excellent SF, including
Stanislaw Lem's "Cyberiad" and much other humorous SF written over
the years by authors who didn't give a hoot whether their conceits
were possible or not. There are three possibilities I can think of:
(1) Lem's "Cyberiad" is NOT SF, (2) Lem's "Cyberiad" is BAD SF, (3)
your definition is incorrect. In my book, Lem's work is good SF.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 12:57:24 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

Gene Ward Smith writes:

>   Did "Rendezvous with Rama" really have reactionless drive? I
>didn't recall this, but it does illustrate a related point, which
>is that very little science fiction is really plausible; most of it
>has some science- rubbish in it. Is the reactionless drive in
>"Rama" really that important?  I don't think it makes this "bad"
>sf, but then I don't expect the science in sf to make any sense.

"Rama" is really a strange example to bring up, seeing as how there
really isn't a plot in the normal sense (machina ex deus ? :-).
Yes, as the ship accelerates away one of the characters says "Well,
there goes Newton's Third Law."  Yet few people have a problem with
this-- and even the characters in the book are amazed by this
rewriting of physics.  I therefore think that the magic words are
"appropriate conformity to physics".  In this case, there's no
problem, since the Ramans can presumably have any level of
technology necessary.  As the physics violations become more
difficult to take straight, we enter the gray area where SF merges
into the rest of fantasy; some of LeGuin's books (notably _Lathe of
Heaven_) live in this grey area.

>   The whole point of getting the science right in sf is to keep
>the reader from laughing too hard. If you get to the point where
>you think "this almost makes sense" (e.g., "The Black Cloud") that
>is all that can be asked.

This is exactly the right approach.  Anything that isn't blatantly
ridiculous is, I think, appropriate by definition.  Breaking the
rules to explore them is by definition valid SF.  In this respect I
find that the booksellers are onto something when they put the
fantasy and SF together.  The kind of reality violations in both are
really the same thing in two different forms.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Nov 86 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #388
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Nov 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 388

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams (3 msgs) & Card & Carey &
                      Duane & Hubbard & Niven &
                      Post Holocaust Novels (2 msgs) &
                      Sentient Computers (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 02:52:59 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

bph_cwjb@jhunix.UUCP (William J. Bogstad) writes:
>   I have read 2 or 3 of the books in the Hitchhiker's Guide series
>and I really can't understand why people get excited about them.
>Sure, some of the ideas are cute, but that really isn't enough for
>me to give something a rave review.  There are many other books I
>would reccomend first.

Yes, let's not go overboard. The hitchhiker's books have some great
lines, but like most cult things are not very good when analyzed
critically. Like, "Buckaroo Banzai" is really not a very good movie.
This of course does not stop me from wanting to see it over and
over.  Realistically, the books are very stupid. You can tell that
they are very stupid because it is impossible to find anything good
about them when you are trying to explain to a friend what is so
great about them. Also, there is a VERY marked quality decrease in
the third book, which is what usually happens when you are trying to
duplicate weirdness.

Sure, I've read the original a few times, and the next two as well,
but they are not great literature. I feel no great pressing need to
read "So long...", since there is no particular plot to get caught
up on. I don't think the books are a good way to get someone
interested in science fiction.

Still, they do have their place.

Adam Barr
Princeton University
BITNET: 6080626@PUCC
UUCP:...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6080626

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 05:05:20 GMT
From: jhunix!bph_cwjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William J. Bogstad)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>>How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
>>What does everyone who knows about it, think about it?
>
>Doug! He's my man! ...
>   My opinion? The Hitchhiker series is are some of the best books
>I have ever read. Go read them, you won't regret it.

   Now for a different opinion... :-)

   I have read 2 or 3 of the books in the Hitchhiker's Guide series
and I really can't understand why people get excited about them.
Sure, some of the ideas are cute, but that really isn't enough for
me to give something a rave review.  There are many other books I
would recommend first.

Bill Bogstad

P.S.  Please no flames about my diminshed mental capacities.  Just
accept the fact that I have a character flaw which renders me unable
to appreciate this great literature.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86  13:50:00 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: inexial discontinuity

As for when Zaphod got his third arm and second head the third arm
is explained early in the first book of the trilogy. When Zaphod was
traveling to the island in the hover-bubble it was said "and his
third arm which he had had recently fitted under his second arm" so
he did not get the third arm until after his visit to Earth. As for
the second head in the first chapter of the second book Zaphod had
to contact his grandfather for help, his grandfather was described
as having two heads.  So I guess the explanation of the birdcage on
his shoulder is a good one.  And as we all know, there's nothing
worse than having one drunk head.  Another interesting note is that
Slartibartfast said he helped create Norway on Earth 10 million
years ago on Magrathea. Now the Magratheans were in hibernation for
5 millions years. Does this mean that a Slartibartfast's lifespan is
over five millions years long?  A last note, at the end of the third
book the prisoner (I can't remember his name) told Arthur where to
find the Ultimate Question. But in the fourth book they suddenly
started calling it God's final message to his creation. Any ideas
why the sudden switch?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 12:06:20 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
To: larrabee@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: Card

   I've never asked Card whether he considers himself a practicing
Mormon, but I've been to one of his "secular humanist revivals" and
question whether he still calls himself a practicing Christian of
any stripe ("When I say, 'Do you BELIEVE?', I want you to answer 'In
what?'"). If you're at a con where he's doing one of these revivals,
\\go//---they're very entertaining.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 12:18:31 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Battlestations! and Diane Carey

    I just finished reading Diane Carey's "Battlestations!", and I
had to rave about it before it slipped from my mind amid the flurry
of other reading I have to do.
    Ms Carey has done a masterful job of presenting four interesting
characters as the main focus of her two books (the first was
"Dreadnought!", and Battlestations! is a direct sequel).  Lt.
Commander Piper is an engaging command candidate with problems -
mainly her own uncertainty of her abilities, especially as her role
model is the one and only Captain Kirk.  She, too, has a special
relationship with a Vulcan, named Sarda.  But Sarda is not a carbon
copy of Spock.  He had his own problems, his own reasons for being
an outcast.
    The two other "minor" characters Ms Carey has created are the
doctor, Merete, and the ?, nick-named Scanner, a country-bumpkin
mechanical/- sensor/communications whiz.  The team of four have much
to offer as alternatives to the over-worked "old-family", and,
although Kirk, Spock, Scott, McCoy, etc. do feature in her stories,
usually very importantly, I think Piper and Co make a refreshing
change of pace.
    The book itself is also very good - fast paced, action packed,
well plotted.  Both it, and its predecessor, were absolutely
enjoyable, and they both prove that Star Trek is not about Kirk, et
al, but about people, and interaction.  I only hope that The New
Generation has the same fine characterizations and interactions that
Ms Carey's books have.

John L WHITE@DREXELVM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 01:46:18 GMT
From: unisoft!kalash@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane's next Wizard book

>SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD will be out soon in paperback.

   In fact, it is already out (with a fairly nice cover).

Joe Kalash
ucbvax!unisoft!kalash
ucbvax!kalash
kalash@berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1986 13:15 EST
From: Dave Goldblatt  <USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

I think L. Ron Hubbard died of a coronary, but I'm not positive.
You can probably check in the second or third book for the date of
his death -- I'm pretty sure it was in one of them.  As for
Dianetics, well, I'm sure they'll keep re-releasing it as long as it
sells, even if the author's dead..  (nothing new in this--look at
the number of editions of Lord of the Rings! :-)

Anyhow, the remaining 5 books WILL be published (ugh).  If for
nothing else, it's because #5 is on the Times bestseller list..
(there was a rumor in one of the fanzines a while back that stated
that the reason so many "Battlefield Earths" and "Dianetics" were
sold was because all the Scientologists bought 'em.. :-)

dg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 20:52:57 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>On the other other hand, I doubled up in laughter instantly when a
>friend told me about Niven's _Ringworld_.  It's hard to suspend
>disbelief when a writer makes such a major glaring error as the
>basic setting of his book.

   Begging your pardon, but what was the "major glaring error" that
made Ringworld so easy to disbelieve? I seem to have read a few
years ago that someone had done some rather rigorous math and
engineering studies on the idea and had found is sound, though with
a few problems that Niven hadn't reallized (ie, the instability that
was featured in _Ringworld Engineers_). Would you care to explain?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 17:44:50 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels

Very similar to Earth Abides by George R. Stewart (but written
almost 50 years earlier) is The Scarlet Plague, by Jack London.

John Oswalt
..!hplabs!ridge!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 17:30:31 GMT
From: ihuxv!rck@rutgers.rutgers.edu (R. C. Kukuk)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels

Does anyone remember TRIUMPH by Philip Wylie?

Ron Kukuk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 86 05:16:13 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_adgj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Donald G Jackson)
Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list

   Another author who deals with sentient computers is (of course)
Heinlein.  An interesting feature regarding the telepathic control
aspect (as in Asimov's 4th foundation novel) is that Heinlein says
in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE something to the effect that a powerful,
sentient computer detects "thoughts" or brain waves as easily as
humans hear sounds; plus, given that computer's ability to 'focus'
sound, even if it couldn't reply telepathically, it could whisper in
your ear.
   And we mustn't forget Mike of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.
   Another thing: I think that Asimov's Caves of Steel series should
also be included, since the robots included in those books are,
though called positronic robots, also sentient computers.

Donald G. Jackson
The Johns Hopkins University
ins_adgj@jhunix

------------------------------

Date: Mon 17 Nov 86 16:41:36-EST
From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet)
Subject: sentient computer

How about the ship-controlling computer in C. Simak's "Shakespeare's
Planet" which is actually the union of 3 formerly- human minds ?

ejs

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 21:25:19 GMT
From: 6103014@PUCC.BITNET (Harold Feld)
Subject: Re: Human Computers

From: DAVE%UWF.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>    In my growing up years, I was especially enamored of the
>writings of R.A. Heinlein, who wrote a few of those books involving
>sentient computers that you are asking about.  The ones that come
>to mind are:

   Number of the Beast, R.A.H.
   Time Enough For Love, R.A.H.
   The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, R.A.H.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 18:41:29 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

adt@ukc.ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) writes:
>venerar@rpics.RPI.EDU (A. Rudy Vener) writes:
>>There was a novel called (I think) 'Oath of Fealty' about a Los
>>Angeles area arcology in which metal access of computer systems
>
>The book was written by Larry Niven and features a computer called

   You left out the very important detail that the book was
co-authored by Jerry Pournelle. This was either the 4th or 5th book
that the pair produced.  Does anybody know which it is off of the
top of their head?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 08:56:29 GMT
From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

I recently read a book called "ariel" which concerned a sentient
machine.  I can't remember the name of the author, but it was truly
one of the most awful loads of trash I have ever had the misfortune
to come across.  The author knew NOTHING about computers and the
book is full of attempts to describe machine rooms and such like -
all information seeming to be garnered from movies.  The book is
about some wonderful westerner (US I think) who is doggedly
attempting to build an intelligent machine whilst the wily and evil
Japanese are trying to steal his ideas (because their's don't work)
and to destroy everything he has already built.  The day is saved by
the computer man's plucky son who has been hacking into the
Intelligent Machine (Ariel) and has taught it (like a child of
course, the adults hadn't thought of this) thus making it
intelligent.  The son has also been snarfing copies of everything he
could lay his hands on and when it's all destroyed he has a
copy......  Ring the bells and hang out the flags!! Basically this
book is total crap and should be avoided at any cost.

Lindsay F. Marshall
Computing Lab.
U of Newcastle upon Tyne
Tyne & Wear UK
ARPA  : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa
JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
UUCP  : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 05:43:01 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computers

Well, who can forget Obie, the mini-Markovian brain from Jack
Chalker's Well World series? (I guess anyone who hasn't read them
yet). Actually those stories are fairly good, they have a great
premise and the writing does nothing to interfere with it. They
involve planets left over from an ancient civilization who have a
living brain underneath the entire surface. Actually that's not
really what they're about, but they do involve them.  I do recommend
the books.

Adam Barr, Princeton University
BITNET: 6080626@PUCC
UUCP:...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6080626

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 21:22:12 GMT
From: ttidca!hollombe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

I'm surprised no one's mentioned one of the most famous sentient
computers in SF.  I refer to Muddlehead, the heart and soul of the
good ship "Muddlin' Through" from Poul Anderson's stories of
Nicholas Van Rijn, David Falkayne, and the Polisotechnic League.

Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
{philabs,randvax,trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 09:20:15 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: sentinent computers

   If I remember right, there is a ship in IT that sees all the
activity during the story that has a human brain or a copy on
chips (or something like that).  Anyone know for sure?

Bryan McDonald
Univ. of California @ Davis

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 15:30:45 est
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Computers

Does anyone else remember one of the most plausible future computers
in SF: the computerised house in Bradbury's There Will Come Soft
Rains?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 11:49:31 PST (Monday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #381
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

In the human access category, try Mindkiller, by Spider Robinson and
Heart of the Comet, by Gregory Benford & David Brin.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 18:16:54 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Sentient computers and mind-computer access

From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM
>In the human access category, try Mindkiller, by Spider Robinson

   Mindkiller, while it is a fine book, and the technology developed
in it could lead to human access, does not have any examples of
either sentient computers or direct human access of a computer.

  On the otherhand Roger Zelazny's "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by
Hokusai" is not a novel (it won the hugo in the novella cat.(I think
it was novella, it could have been a novellette)) does directly deal
with direct access.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Nov 86 0919-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #389
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Nov 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 389

Today's Topics:

             Films - Star Wars (2 msgs) & Star Blazers,
             Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Tripods (4 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1986 1841-EST (Tuesday)
From: burdvax!bmiller@seismo.CSS.GOV (Bruce J. Miller)
Subject: Re: Star Wars (First Trilogy)

From what I've seen, the First trilogy is supposed to cover the
period from Obi Wan's youth through the Fall of the Republic.  This
info is based on what seems to be a fairly reasonable plot outline
for Star Wars III that I found on (believe it or not) Compuserve
about two years ago.

(*** POTENTIAL SPOILER ***)
The title is "Star Wars III: Fall of the Republic" and covers the
time from the "birth" of Darth Vader through the birth of Luke and
Leia and ends shortly thereafter.  It also makes reference to "Star
Wars I: The Adventures of Obi Wan Kenobi" and implies that Star Wars
II will be about the Clone Wars.

Of course, this could all be a deliberate leak, meant to mislead us.
(*** END SPOLER ***)

If anyone is interested in seeing this (I think I have it around
here somewhere) I can netmail it to them.  It's a bit long to post
(25 pages).

Herb Miller
ARPA: hmiller@athena.mit.edu
      burdvax!bmiller@seismo.css.gov
UUCP: ...mit-athena!hmiller
      ...burdvax!bmiller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86  11:21:13 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Before the Beginning

I do remember in STAR WARS after the logo came on the screen it then
said EPISODE IV and gave a summary of what was happening. Back in
the summer of 1983 I turned on Doctor Who in Boston and just before
the program started they showed an advertisement for the Star Wars
saga which would begin that Friday on National Public Radio 89.7 FM.
The series was composed of 13 half-hour shows, the first several
dealing with incidents that took place before the opening of the
first Star Wars movie. It started out on some planet with the
Princess Leia and the captain of the ship later attacked by the star
destroyer discussing his mission to a solar system containing a
rebel base. While talking they were interrupted by Darth Vader. The
three exchanged the usual diplomatic formalities and then departed.
Princess Leia traveled back to Alderaan while the captain flew his
ship to the rebel base. The Princess, now back on Alderaan, was met
by her (adopted)father and an Imperial governer who wanted to marry
her. Unfortunately the governer was killed during a scuffle with
Leia and her father and she was forced to leave the planet while her
father disposed of the body. Meanwhile, the ship receiving the Death
Star plans from the rebel base out in space is found by the Star
Destroyer. The captain sends his ship into hyperspace and emerges
near Tatoonine only to be followed by the Star Destroyer.  I do not
remember when Leia joined the captain on his ship.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86  11:46:46 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: More on STAR BLAZERS

Last year at the U-Mass Science Fiction Socitey's NOTJUSTANOTHERCON
I was fortunate enough to view the entire Star Blazers fifth movie
all in one sitting and in Japanese. The person who brought the tape
also knew the story and was translating the main topics to us, the
audience. It started out with a brief history of the planet
Aquarius. Aquarius is a planet which is composed entirely of water
and circles the Universe once every 4 billion years.  Aquarius was
responsible for cooling the Earth down by drenching it with water
soon after its firey birth and thereby starting life. Aquarius was
also responsible for the Biblical flood. The scene then shifts out
into deep space to another solar system. One of the planets is
inhabitied by a race of humanoids with blue skin and long white
hair. Aquarius is passing by their planet and because of the
gravititational differences Aquarius drenches the planet with water.
The Yamato comes out of warp drive near the planet and rescues many
of its people. Unfortunately, they all die except for one small boy.
After Aquarius goes out of range an enormous spaceship is seen
coming back towards the planet. The ship is basically two planets
joined together by a huge shaft. The rear part is just a nuclear
reactor the size of Earth's moon. The crew on this ship come from
the planet and are terrified to see that their world has just been
destroyed. They sight the Yamato and fire missiles at it, believing
it to be responsible. The crew manage to warp the badly damaged
Yamato back to Earth. Meanwhile, on the alien ship, the captain
reveals their own history. It turns out that these people originated
on Earth. They worshiped the Devil, the rest of the humans
worshipped God.  After the Biblical flood, the blue people left
Earth in a spacecraft.  Now, their own planet destroyed, they decide
to warp the planet Aquarius to the Earth to wash out all human life.
This will take three warps to do.  They build up power and warp
Aquarius and their ship once. On Earth Wildstar feels he has failed
his command and so a new captain is put in charge of the Yamato,
none other than Captain Avatar. Apparently Earth science can now
bring back the dead. The crew and the repaired Yamato take off again
to stop the aliens plans. They Yamato and Aquarius warp into the
same space.  The Yamato lands on Aquarius where the spirit of the
planet talks to them.  She tells them that the aliens are warping
Aquarius toward the Earth and she can do nothing to stop them.
Before she can say more, the Yamato is attacked by the aliens
fighter fleet. The Yamato uses new anti-missile missiles and wave
motion capsules(each capsule contains 1/8 the energy of the wave
motion gun) to destroy the fighter fleet. Then the Yamato penetrates
the giant ship's force field and lands on its midsection. They
manage to destroy the ship, but not before it warps Aquarius for the
third time to Earth.  Captain Avatar devises a plan. They
manufacture a green liquid that will somehow calm the waters of
Aquarius. To do this, however, they must reverse the power of the
wave motion gun which will explode the Yamato when fired. Avatar
secretly stays on board and fires the gun. The green liquid sprays
out into space and stops the Aquarian waters from drenching the
Earth.  Avatar and the Yamto are destroyed and Aquarius continues on
its way. The movie ends with Wildstar's and Nova's wedding.

------------------------------

Subject: Star Trek: "Metamorphosis"
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1986 12:36 EST

The cloud creature was "definitely feminine" (as indicated by the
Universal Translator, which considers "male" and "female" universal
concepts).  Whether this means it was a female or not I don't know,
but I do know that only the most warped mind could construe the
relationship between Cochran and the Cloud Creature a homosexual
one.  It is doubtful indeed if such creatures would even HAVE a
"sex" -- why would such a concept be needed?  I highly doubt they
reproduce by sexual means (at least not the way we think of it).

Don't get me wrong--I think that if Star Trek had made an episode
about homosexuality that would have been great, but "Metamorphosis"
is not a story of homosexual love--it is a story of inter-species
love.  And every connotation present in the story leads me to
believe that the cloud creature is/was in some way feminine.

As to Kirk's argument to get The Companion to let go of Cochran was
not necessarily motivated by a real feeling that such a relationship
was unworkable (indeed, through the whole story Kirk and Spock were
pointing out HOW practical the relationship was).  The Companion not
only wanted Cochran, she/it wanted the Enterprise people and the
dying Hedford to remain too...  That was a pretty strong motivation
for Kirk to come up with ANY story to get the companion to let go of
Cochran.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 15:12:58 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Harcourt Fenton Mudd

Roger C. Carmel, who played Harry Mudd on Star Trek, died last week.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 86 16:08:00 GMT
From: acf4!percus@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Don't hold your breath for Tripods

Apparently the word has not yet spread here, but there will be no
third season of Tripods.  It has fallen prey to the axe of Mr.
Michael Grade, Controller of BBC-1, famous for placing Dr. Who on
hiatus for 18 months.  I don't quite understand his reasons for this
move -- I finally comprehend his purpose for trying to cancel Dr.
Who (he disapproved of the producer, for good reason, and had to
find a way to force him out -- I know I will be flamed for my
defensive attitude here), but the cancellation of Tripods is a
mystery.

If you want a third season of Tripods, WRITE TO MICHAEL GRADE!  HE
IS RESPONSIVE TO PUBLIC PRESSURE, as the case with Dr. Who has
proven.  Now is the time to act.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra|ihnp4|harvard|seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86  18:37:47 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: The Three Tripods

The Tripods was originally a trilogy written by British author John
Christopher. The White Mountains and The City Of Gold And Lead were
made into TV series about two years ago. The second part ended in a
cliffhanger with the boys returning from the Tripod City with others
only to find the freemen's base destroyed. The acting, the plot, and
the special effects of the series were flawless. The three books are
out in bookstores now, but you may have to hunt for them. I have
heard that the reason the TV Tripods was so good because it "stole"
all the money from Doctor Who.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 18:32:33 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: T.V. series and books about The Tripods by J. Christoper

grant@ukecc.UUCP (Miles) writes:
>Has anyone seen a series on PBS called "The Tripods"? It is made by
>england and austrailia, and is a television adaptation of J.
>Christoper's trilogy about the tripods.
>
>I have seen the first 2 chunks, and am eagerly awaiting the third.

Rumor has it that the BBC ran out of funds for the third season.  It
was not and cannot now be made.  An additional rumor suggested that
when fans all over the world wrote in to ask that Dr. Who would not
be cancelled, they had to get the funds for the next season of Dr.
Who someplace and they came from "Tripods."  That caused the
cancellation.  These are unconfirmed rumors.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 19:00:01 GMT
From: ukecc!grant@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Miles)
Subject: Re: Don't hold your breath for Tripods

 I am pretty disappointed to hear that the tripods have been
cancelled, (if that is the case). I know the BBC'c address,
(roughly) and would write, but I think it would be a losing battle.
The tripods trilogy and the series were both excellent, and I don't
know why the Beeb (What we english people call the BBC) axed it. I'm
sure Dr. Who will be under the axe eventually too. If you or anyone
has the address to the beeb I will write. If there are any points,
discussions or ideas about the tripods or the tyranny of the British
Broadcasting Corporation.. Please post here..

Miles Grant

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 86 23:50:48 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: A new twist on the time travel question

I've seen various postings in this group from people giving schemes
for how to make it big in the past using just what they already
know.  While this is interesting, I feel I've had enough answers to
this particular question.  Why don't youse folks address the
following: Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and
everything on your person might be catapulted into the past to
sometime A.D.  You would get inoculated against all sorts of
nasties, I suspect, and in addition you would get together a little
kit of things you would not want to be without when you arrived and
carry it with you always.  What I want to know is, what would that
kit contain?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 04:14:28 GMT
From: griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Cutter John)
Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>I've seen various postings in this group from people giving schemes
>for how to make it big in the past using just what they already
>know.  While this is interesting, I feel I've had enough answers to
>this particular question.  Why don't youse folks address the
>following: you would get together a little kit of things you would
>not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you
>always.  What I want to know is, what would that kit contain?

Easy, kinda.

1 towel - that's all you need.

Seriously,

1 Swiss Army knife - The only gadget MacGuyver's ever used that made
  sense
1 coil of some kind of wire.
1 Magnifying lens - in case my knife doesn't have it.
1 First Aid kit - including snake bite kit
1 hand gun of some kind with plenty of ammunition - preferably an
  Uzi
several ounces of gold and silver (maybe platinum?  Naahh)
Copy of Newton's Principia
Glass beads and trinkets.
Chewing gum.
VCR and several Star Trek episodes (ok, maybe not)
1 slide rule
1 hatchet and/or large knife/machete - "Now THIS is a knife"
1 water condenser
1 parka
Toilet paper
Extra pair of underwear.

That's about it off the top of my mind.  We decided that a compass
was either meaningless or redundant, since you can probably tell
directions by the sun.

Jim Griffith
griffith@cory.Berkeley.EDU
...!ucbvax!cory!griffith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 09:52 PST
From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Time Travel (yes, again!)

I have loved the expositions on what 20th century bimbos could do in
some previous time, but I think it's run 90 percent of it's course.
Let's change the rules a bit (that's the great part of SF to me).

Now you have a time machine and a nice theory of time that states
you can go back, change things, and return to either future you want
(or visit both to see the differences).  Now you get to prepare and
take a small stock of supplies with you.  What would you change?

Me, I would like to go put the fear of God in the people in Salem.
Let's see them burn witches when an angel (complete with wings,
lights, horns, and a flying harness) drops down in front of the
church and tells them not too.  Granted it's a bit dangerous, but it
could be fun!

Or how about arriving at Custer's last stand and trying to convince
and or fool him or the Indians into going the wrong way.  Would that
make any difference?  I bet we'd be surprised how things could
change with little things like that.  Remember Connections on PBS?
(Isn't he doing a new show?)

Let's here it from the history benders!  What's your favorite?
Wanna get rich?  I would like to have stowed away on one of the
later Apollo missions.  With my luck I would probably have gotten on
number 13. (After the Challenger accident, don't you think those
guys were LUCKY!!!!)

Jon

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Nov 86 0924-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #390
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 390

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Niven (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 14:44:46 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld error)

THe earliest edition of _Ringworld_ has Wu travelling around the
world in the wrong direction.  Later editions are supposed to have
had this corrected.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 11:26:57 GMT
From: weemba@brahms (Matthew P Wiener)
Subject: Larry Niven vs James Clerk Maxwell

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
>Begging your pardon, but what was the "major glaring error" that
>made Ringworld so easy to disbelieve? I seem to have read a few
>years ago that someone had done some rather rigorous math and
>engineering studies on the idea and had found is sound, though with
>a few problems that Niven hadn't reallized (ie, the instability
>that was featured in _Ringworld Engineers_). Would you care to
>explain?

You seem to have read something somewhere, but I definitely know
about J C Maxwell's (as in Maxwell's equations) work on stability of
rings systems.  That was what I had in mind when I cracked up
laughing.  I *am* aware that he then wrote the sequel with this in
mind--that is not my point.

Don't get me wrong.  At some point I will probably put my disbelief
aside and read the book.  As long as he doesn't rub the science in
my nose, and as long as it is interesting, I may even like it.

I mean, I couldn't stop smirking when Asimov in _Foundation's Edge_
made the comment that Terminus was just next door to the massive
galactic black hole, and of course he had never meant that it was at
the *exact* center.  The poor book was weak no matter where he put
Terminus.

Matthew P Wiener
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 15:19:31 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
>weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>>On the other other hand, I doubled up in laughter instantly when a
>>friend told me about Niven's _Ringworld_.
>Begging your pardon, but what was the "major glaring error" that
>made Ringworld so easy to disbelieve?

   Since "Ringworld" is a good example of the "hard" sf genre, it
might be instructive to take a look at the various impossible and
illogical things which we find in it. If you will recall, Our Heros
get to the Ringworld on a faster-than-light ship, which is such a
normal impossible thing that we don't even notice it any more. The
ship has a GP hull, which means it is made out of Very Hard Stuff
#1. They find a Ringworld made out of Very Hard Stuff #2. As if two
completely different kinds of VHS were not enough, they could have
simply used the "stasis field" in either case--and why didn't they?
In the sequel, we discover that the Ringworld was made by
protectors--but protectors are clearly in contradiction to known
facts about primate evolution on the earth (they are also a very
nice idea and a good example of why sf authors ignore illogical
contradictions-- a good story idea is worth it!) We also discover
that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck" in humans and seem
to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes no sense at all,
because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait, would be the
ultimate in survival value; hence it would already exist. In any
case, the reasons given for the puppeteers belief in human "luck"
make no sense, since a better explanation would be the secret use of
human protectors in the human-Kzin wars.  Then we have the problems
we have already discussed, plus other evidence (such as the large
hole in the Ringworld) of sloppy engineering by the presumably
advanced Ringworld engineers. Of course, some of the above gets
re-worked in Ringworld Engineers, but this is an after-thought, so
it really doesn't count.

    In many ways, the difference between most "hard" sf and fantasy
is terminological: does one call it wizardry, or science? Do we find
elves, or aliens? The idea that "fantasy" is impossible whereas "sf"
is realistic is a pleasant fantasy in itself. There is no way we can
prove that "The Lord of the Rings" is not the actual pre-history of
the earth, though I admit it doesn't seem likely. I have about the
same feeling towards "Ringworld": maybe the sort of things in it are
possible; but they certainly seem very, very implausible.

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 02:18:17 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

Larry Niven has at various times explained that he stopped writing
"known space" stories partly because he got tired of them, and
partly because it was getting harder and harder to keep from
contradicting himself -- not only in terms of "history" but in terms
of technology.  It's terribly embarrassing to spend a whole short
story setting up some technological problem for the hero, and then
have some teenage fan point out that the problem could have been
solved trivially with a stasis field or Grog telepathy or whatever.
One of the specific examples he has used is "bolonium" -- the proper
name for whatever impossible material you happen to need at the
moment.  Having invented one kind of bolonium (GP hulls) for "There
Is A Tide" (where the whole puzzle was "what can get through an
impenetrable hull?")  he was stuck with it.  He had to have stasis
fields for "World of Ptaavs" so then he was stuck with those (though
it's not clear why you can't make a hull out of stasis fields.
Perhaps you can't make one concave?)  Neither one would work for
Ringworld -- GP hulls only came in certain (mostly small) sizes and
shapes, and stasis fields presumably get hard to make in large sizes
(and how would you hold small ones together?)  (Besides, "Fist of
God" couldn't have gotten thru a stasis field).  Anyway, Niven
needed _scrith_ for Ringworld.  But now he had so many kinds of
bolonium that an awful lot of good plots could be solved trivially
by invoking one of them ... so he just abandoned the whole universe
and started over.

   Incidentally, bolonium is a key component in that wonderful alloy
Unobtainium, with which we could build remarkable things like
orbital skyhooks and vacuum-filled balloons if we could just _get_
some.

   Also incidentally, Niven's recovery scheme in Ringworld Engineers
isn't much more plausible than the original Ringworld.  The force
pulling the ringworld off center increases with the distance off
center, so even a very conservatively designed system for
stabilizing small displacements (even up to the scale produced by
Fist of God) would be hopelessly inadequate to counter the sort of
several-percent displacement that occurred while the stabilizer was
dismantled.  The ratio of thrusts needed is comparable to the ratio
of the mass of Fist of God (a good-sized asteroid) to the mass of
Ringworld (several Earth masses).  There is nothing unreasonable,
though, about the basic notion of stabilizing an inherently unstable
system like the Ringworld (or a bicycle!), so one should not laugh
at the notion too soon.  I have heard of, but not seen, a painting
showing a ringworld colliding with its sun -- surely one of the most
spectacular catastrophes imaginable....

Jordin Kare
jtk@s1-c.ARPA
jtk@mordor.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 19:47:28 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld)

>Gene Ward Smith (ucbvax!brahms!gsmith) writes:
>   Since "Ringworld" is a good example of the "hard" sf genre, it
>might be instructive to take a look at the various impossible and
>illogical things which we find in it.  The ship has a GP hull,
>which means it is made out of Very Hard Stuff #1. They find a
>Ringworld made out of Very Hard Stuff #2. As if two completely
>different kinds of VHS were not enough, they could have simply used
>the "stasis field" in either case--and why didn't they?

They DID use the stasis field - to alleviate the boredom of the
2-year journey to the ringworld. The statis field is a field, not a
substance; you couldn't build anything out of it. It encloses
things. I don't see anything wrong with 2 kinds of VHS; for all we
know, they may have been different forms of the same basic stuff.

>In the sequel, we discover that the Ringworld was made by
>protectors--but protectors are clearly in contradiction to known
>facts about primate evolution on the earth (they are also a very
>nice idea and a good example of why sf authors ignore illogical
>contradictions-- a good story idea is worth it!)

I agree with your parenthetical comment, but evolution is hotly
contested even now, and is not perfectly understood, and is a
THEORY. I don't think you can call the Protectors a major error.
There's no illogical contradiction, a reasonable explanation is that
the protector world is like ours, and when humans arrived here (with
protectors), we eliminated all competition, and the primates already
here never developed into "native" humans. The protectors then died
out, because their staple food won't grow here.

>We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck"
>in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes
>no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait,
>would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already
>exist.

How do you know it doesn't exist? Maybe we're extremely lucky. We
wouldn't notice it, being used to our natural luck-level.

>In any case, the reasons given for the puppeteers belief in human
>"luck" make no sense, since a better explanation would be the
>secret use of human protectors in the human-Kzin wars.

But there are no human protectors, as I explained above. Another
Niven book, 'Protector' explains all about protectors, BTW.

>Then we have the problems we have already discussed, plus other
>evidence (such as the large hole in the Ringworld) of sloppy
>engineering by the presumably advanced Ringworld engineers.

No one can account for every occurrence. Once an artifact is
abandoned by its keepers, it will usually deteriorate after a while.
The ringworld had been abandoned.

>maybe the sort of things in [rongwolrd] are possible; but they
>certainly seem very, very implausible.

I didn't think it was any less plausible than any other SF. So I
still don't know what your "glaring major error" is! There's another
book you might also love to hate (:-)), about a Dyson sphere world.
It's like Ringworld except it's a full sphere around a sun.  I'm
afraid I can't remember its name or author (anyone?). The world is
found by accident at the beginning of the book.

patrick
{ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 06:21:02 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
> We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck"
> in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes
> no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait,
> would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already
> exist.

   One thing to remember is that just because a certain evolutionary
step is advantageous doesn't mean it will have already occurred.  If
such immediate evolution occurred in every case we wouldn't have an
appendix, which is a thing with no function, and we would be able to
detoxify all sorts of plant poisons, and thus be able to eat many
foods which we are denied.  That evolution of such a trait would be
of survival value is advantageous and possible is undeniable -- many
creatures can live with substances that we cannot stand -- but
evolution of such a trait would require more generations than we
have had.  The more complex a trait is, the longer it is going to
take to evolve it.  So, some things that have survival value are not
around, because they have not had time to evolve yet.  Also, some
traits may require several steps which are only advantageous in
combination, but not by themselves.  Such traits will take a very
long time to evolve, if they evolve at all.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
chiaraviglio@husc4.harvard.edu
seismo!husc4!chiaraviglio

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 17:57:20 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld)

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes:
> They DID use the stasis field - to alleviate the boredom of the
> 2-year journey to the ringworld. The statis field is a field, not
> a substance; you couldn't build anything out of it. It encloses
> things. I don't see anything wrong with 2 kinds of VHS; for all we
> know, they may have been different forms of the same basic stuff.

   You can enclose things in the stasis field and thus protect them,
but by definition time comes nearly to a halt for all things inside
the stasis field -- sometimes useful but not always what you want.
And you can't make a wall all the way around your hull out of stasis
fields by having an inner field that negates the time-stopping
effect of the outer one because, as explained in <World of Ptavvs>,
some fundamental law of physics (as presented by the book) makes it
impossible to have one stasis field inside another.

> I agree with your parenthetical comment, but evolution is hotly
> contested even now, and is not perfectly understood, and is a
> THEORY. I don't think you can call the Protectors a major error.
> There's no illogical contradiction, a reasonable explanation is
> that the protector world is like ours, and when humans arrived
> here (with protectors), we eliminated all competition, and the
> primates already here never developed into "native" humans. The
> protectors then died out, because their staple food won't grow
> here.

   I have news for you.  It is now essentially proven that humans
evolved from lower primates which in turn evolved from lower forms
of life, by the science of Molecular Biology.  Examination of DNA
sequence homology, among other things, allows one to distinguish
between convergent evolution and divergent evolution -- in the
latter case you get much more homology than in the former, since
evolution consists mainly of modification of what's already there.
For example, if we hadn't evolved from something close to
chimpanzees, we wouldn't have ~98% DNA sequence homology to them --
for this to happen on another world by convergent evolution would be
exceedingly improbable.  And we have lesser but still impressive DNA
sequence homologies to other, more distantly-related organisms.

>>We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck"
>>in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes
>>no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait,
>>would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already
>>exist.
>
> How do you know it doesn't exist? Maybe we're extremely lucky. We
> wouldn't notice it, being used to our natural luck-level.

   If it did exist, we would notice variations in the trait due to
mutations.  Hmmm. . .maybe that explains why I have such trouble
getting my lab experiments to work. . . .

Lucius Chiaraviglio
chiaraviglio@husc4.harvard.edu
seismo!husc4!chiaraviglio

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Nov 86 0942-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #391
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 391

Today's Topics:

            Books - Carey & Eddings & Palmer (3 msgs) &
                    Roshwald & Wylie (2 msgs) & Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 15:31:25 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Battlestations!

If you can suspend disbelief long enough to watch Piper take out 3
Star Fleet Security people, have her ship use a tractor beam to bend
the Enterprise's nacelle strut so the people who have taken it over
won't get away, and Scanner's telling Piper how to aim the transwarp
flux to use it as a weapon (and then her DOING it), it is a good
book. I did enjoy it.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 01:34:46 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

I for one, liked the Belgariad series and am looking forward to
reading the Mallorean one. I happen to like Eddings' style and don't
care why he is doing another series. Hopefully, it won't turn out
like the Covenant series which in the second trilogy got completely
lost and was mostly worthless (yes, I read the whole thing anyway.)

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East
Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 23:00:55 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence

gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>   Before we again forget about Palmer's "Emergence", I think it
>would be fun to analyize it from another point of view.  [
>Describes the spontaneous mutation of "homo post hominem" in
> that novel] ... These are clearly all separate changes in the
>genetic code, and some at least (the last one clearly) are not just
>minor changes, but massive re-write jobs. It is quite obviously not
>plausible to assume that this happened fortuitously. The clear
>implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a black
>monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human evolution.

A simpler hypothesis is that Mr. Palmer wasn't thinking clearly
about evolution. (It is possible to fail to think clearly about
evolution.  Come to talk.origins and learn how!) Because the word
"evolution" is grammatically a noun, sometimes we talk as if it
denoted a Thing: evolution made this happen, and then it made that
happen, etc.  Pop books about human origins (I am remembering _The
Naked Ape_ by Desmond Morris, in particular) even represent
Evolution as a planner - doing this, that and the other *in order
that* something else might be the result.

It occurs to me that Palmer may have been influenced by A. E. van
Vogt's novel _Slan_. The telepathy, increased strength, and
increased resistance to disease of "homo post hominem" are similar
to the characteristics of van Vogt's "slans."

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 13:12:44 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence

cjh@petsd.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes:
>gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>>The clear implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a
>>black monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human
>>evolution.
>A simpler hypothesis is that Mr. Palmer wasn't thinking clearly
>about evolution.

  Of course he wasn't. My "X factor" *was* Palmer from one point of
view.

>It occurs to me that Palmer may have been influenced by A. E. van
>Vogt's novel _Slan_. The telepathy, increased strength, and
>increased resistance to disease of "homo post hominem" are similar
>to the characteristics of van Vogt's "slans."

   With one difference: van Vogt at least knows he must put in
something about our ideas of evolution having been superceded. The
"hominems" were in the position of believing standard evolutionary
theory, from which point of view the whole thing stinks like a dead
mackerel as soon as one thinks about it--and they *must* think about
it, because they are so smart!

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 22:37:21 GMT
From: starfire!ddb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

desj@brahms (David desJardins) writes:
> trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>>How realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person,
>>regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the
>>*wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their
>>characters in a diary?
> ... You don't need to understand people well to write down what
> they do.  And their actions are what form their characters.
>    On the other hand, if you are saying that the book does not
> actually describe what really is supposed to have happened, but
> her misperceptions of events, then this would be some excuse.

Some excuse for her, but not much excuse for the actual author of
the actual book (David R. Palmer, for those who have lost track).
In fiction, unlike in libel actions, truth is no defense.

I must add that I do not personally agree with most of the
objections expressed about the book here on the net (except for the
one about the compressed style), and that I liked it very much
indeed.  But I felt a need to address the life / art confusion.

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967
Telephone: (612) 721-8800
USmail: 4242 Minnehaha Ave S
        Mpls, MN 55406

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 11:01:19 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Mordecai Roshwald

> From: styx!mcb        (Michael C. Berch)
> Does anybody know of anything else by Roshwald? Is he still
> around?

I don't know if Roshwald is still around (he'd be 65, so it's
likely).  Since 1957 --- up to at least 1978, when my source (R.
Reginald's SF AND FANTASY LITERATURE) was published --- he's been a
Professor of Social and Political Philosophy at the U. of Minnesota.
He had at least one other novel, also sf, published: A SMALL
ARMAGEDDON (1962).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)
UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
  or    ...!decvax!akov68::boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1986 10:07:55-EST
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Re: Post Holocaust Novels

> From: ihuxv!rck@rutgers.rutgers.edu (R. C. Kukuk)
> Does anyone remember TRIUMPH by Philip Wylie?

Philip Wylie also wrote _Tomorrow_, about a more limited nuclear
war.  It was more of a preaching on the virtues of Civil Defense
preparedness.

_Triumph_ was pretty good.  I remember it being serialized in the
Saturday Evening Post (which is showing my age).  Has it ever been
determined which of the two atmospheric models is correct - the one
in _Triumph_ which leaves the Northern hemisphere lethally
radioactive while the Southern goes on as if nothing happened, or
the one in Shute's _On_the_Beach_, where the radiation spreads
across the equator and kills off everybody?

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 14:09:53 est
From: haste@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Wylie--comment and query

>Does anyone remember TRIUMPH by Philip Wylie?

I'd say that this, like TOMORROW, is more of a during-holocaust
novel.

Speaking of "TOMORROW", was or wasn't "The Day After" borrowed lock,
stock and tomahawk from this book (the title, the subject and many
details), and with precious little thanks?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 20:41:39 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: shadowtravel

6105530@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>I think there is an added complication, which is that the closer
>you are to Amber, physically, the more difficult it is to travel
>shadow.

   I don't think that 'physically' is the right term here. Note that
shadow travel is also very difficult in the shadows closest to
Amber, places that can't really be said to be 'close' to Amber at
all, in the sense that if a 'normal' person started to walk to them
from Amber they couldn't get there at all (excepting accidental
shadow shifting, a thing that is mentioned a few times). So there
seems to be a sense of proximity that transends the 'physical'.
Other than that possibly minor quibble I agree.

>For instance, it is easier for folks like Merlin and Corwin to get
>to distant shadows if they just walk a bit away from Amber, then
>start manipulating shadow.  I think this points to Amber being a
>sort of central point from which shadows extend,

   A major point here. There is a big problem with calling Amber
'central'. It is stated in the books that Chaos existed before Amber.
It is also to some extent implied that shadows existed before Amber,
though in lesser number and variety. Therefore I don't think you can
say that Amber is 'central'. It is, however, definitely a node of
some type, one with special properties, as we are observing. If the
word 'node' bothers anyone, how about 'pole'?

   I think we can say that Amber IS the center of Order, with an
exact center at the center of the Pattern in Amber Prime(the Pattern
that is open to the sky.). However this center is as much 'magical'
or 'philosophical' as it is 'physical'.

>meaning that although Amberites can add and subtract features as
>they like, the closer to Amber they are physically, the closer the
>shadow they are on will be to Amber...meaning that one could not
>simply walk in circles to get to France.  The path would have to
>project outwards until it reached a place where France could exist.
>Going directly to France would be an added bonus of precisely what
>was used to focus on that shadow.

   But we are told in _Courts of Chaos_ that although most Amberites
tend to travel in straight lines that circular travel will work just
as well, in fact Corwin escapes Brand that way. What matters is that
the person who is manipulating shadow have some sense of movement,
of things changing around them. And even this may not be an absolute
requirement, note that Brand learns to travel shadows just by
visualizing them. I think that is just a matter of strength and
practice. Oberon was able to shift shadow on Kolvir itself, and
later on so was Corwin, though it was tiring.  The problem I see in
the section above is a confusion of what 'distance' really means in
a multi-planer or even multi-universal situation. If you are not on
the same shadow as Amber itself, then you are on an entirely
different world. You could not ride or walk in a certain direction,
for a given distance, do a shadow shift and find yourself in Amber
(not the best analogy, I know). 'France' could, to an Amberite, lie
in any direction, because it is not 'a place' but a set of
conditions. The greater the net differences between two places, the
further apart they are, to an Amberite.  The physical distance or
time to be traveled is irrelevent, they can (and in a couple of
instances do) take 'shortcuts' that take little time or space, but
which make for vast differences in shadow. The best example is
Random going to get Brand in _Sign of the Unicorn_. With a series of
clouds he gets rid of the sun, taking him 'further in shadow than I
had been in a long time.'(quoting from memory, but it should be very
close) So physical distance is not the way to look at it.

>And, when on a shadow that looks like home sweet home, it's much
>easier to take a plane or cab than it is to leave and come back,
>pulling in different features from the same place.  Any thoughts?

   That depends on how far you have to travel, but in most cases
I'll concede that point. Yes, just a few more things. It is never
said just how difficult it is to manipulate shadow as you near the
Courts. I do note that you can't actually walk in shadow once you
reach them, beyond is only the Void, Primal Chaos, which can be
shaped, but into which no-one travels(oops, I forgot about the
Unicorn. I think I'll welch and say she is a special case) However,
you can use the Logrus(if you are good enough) to change things
there.  It seems to me though that, if it is difficult/impossible to
shift shadow in the Courts, but not that hard once you get a little
distance away, that this is in a sense consistant; that close to
Chaos you would think that things would be easier to change.

   Here's where I get a little wild though. Fact 1: The closer you
are to the center of Amber Prime, the harder it is to manipulate
shadow. Fact 2: The closer you are to the center of gravity of a
mass, the stronger the force drawing you to it. Fact 3: From the
center of the Pattern you can travel anywhere, instantly. Fact 4: At
the very center of gravity of a mass you are weightless, with
respect to that mass (assuming you could get there, which you can't
except in the case of a black hole). So what do we have?  A gradient
that climbs toward infinity in both cases, with a radical
discontinuity at 0. At the center of a mass all gravitational
stresses are equal, at the center of the Pattern all places are
equally 'distant'. Play with that for a while. (I note that there
are in fact 4 representations of the Pattern of Amber(Corwin's is
different (or is it...)). In fact though they must all be the same
Pattern.  Note that Corwin walked the Pattern in Rebma, transported
himself to the Pattern in Amber, then transported himself again. If
walking the Pattern stored the energy to teleport then he would have
had to do so twice to do this. If all shifting from one Pattern to
another did was to change his surroundings without changing his
location then this will work, with all 4 Patterns.)

   I just reread everything down to this point and something else
interesting occured to me. From the stuff of Raw Chaos you can, if
you are good at it, draw anything(I suppose there must be some
limits, but I don't know, nor does it really matter for the moment
what they are). At the center of the Pattern you are equally distant
from all things... But!  above I pointed out that to an Amberite
that distance is one of differences, or of similarities. So you
could say that at the center of the Pattern all things are possible,
as all CONDITIONS are possible. That sounds a lot like the nature of
Chaos doesn't it? From the center of Order all things are possible
and from the (center?) of Chaos all things are possible. Unity.

   But it gets worse. Once a person has walked the Pattern, as I
noted above, he/she can change locations freely as long as they
remain at the center of the Pattern. From the point of view of the
characters in the books this requires that they be able to see the
Pattern around them. Is this necessary? Suppose you walk to the
center of the Pattern. You are now able to visualize any place and
be transported there, BUT YOU HAVEN"T MOVED!  If you did it with
your eyes closed you could still be at the center of the Pattern,
you would still be able to transport yourself again. What if the
Amberites have just been fooling themselves all along? The power is
within them, once they have walked the Pattern once. If only they
realized that they could never really leave that place once they had
been there, they would all be able to seek and move through shadow
at will! Frightening, no? Yet that seems very close to what Brand
was doing.

   On a lighter note, remember that it was said that even things
that couldn't walk in shadows could sometimes 'slip' from one shadow
to another?  When was the last time you found your keys someplace
other than where you REMEMBERED leaving them? Or misremembered
something that you were CERTAIN you knew? I guess you just slipped
shadows a little.... Think about it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Nov 86 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #392
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 392

Today's Topics:

              Books - Banks & Barr & Boyett (2 msgs) &
                      Brin & Card & Dick & Heinlein &
                      Hogan & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Steakley &
                      Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 86 02:49:04 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: WALKING ON GLASS by Iain Banks

I'd never read anything by Iain Banks before, so it was a bit of a
lark for me to order his novel WALKING ON GLASS (Futura (UK), c1985;
239pp) sight unseen, but I did and now I'm glad I did.  Of course
I've always had a weakness for those inevitably British science
fiction novels which delight in absurdity, showing how people keep
the traditionally rigid upper lip when the world around them is
going insane.  I suppose Douglas Adams' HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE books are
in this category.  At the same time I love to indulge in those
equally British science fiction novels which put an emphasis on the
psychological stresses of the characters; this class of fiction is
written by authors like J G Ballard or Christopher Priest.  Imagine
my surprise to find a novel which uses both styles at the same time:
WALKING ON GLASS.

The novel is structured in an odd way.  Each chapter is split into
three sections, each of which deals with a completely different
mental environment (it's up to the reader to decide whether they
represent different physical environments).  The central section is
the world of Steven Grout, a man who is a potentially violent
paranoid schizophrenic, who believes that motor vehicles are
equipped with invisible lasers which shoot out of their axles and
are designed to cut him down while he staggers down the sidewalk.
Grout's world overlaps subtly with his two neighboring worlds -- on
the one hand we have Graham Park, a country boy who has come to
London for art school and has fallen desperately in love with a
mysterious lady in black.  Park's struggle to learn his lady's
secret provides the psychological suspense.  On the other hand we
have Quiss, a veteran of the Therapeutic Wars who has been exiled to
a peculiar castle on a frozen planet in an obscure part of the
galaxy, where he is forced to play a series of bizarre games in
order to earn his freedom.  Quiss's contest provides the comic
relief.  Eventually these three orthogonal worlds manage to collide,
and it some ingenuity on the part of the reader to calculate their
respective changes in momentum...

Banks' juxtaposition of Hitchcock-like suspense with slapstick from
a Warner Bros. cartoon may seem grating to some, but I loved it.
The universes of GLASS are absurd and contrary both superficially
and deeply -- they are consistently inconsistent, like an Escher
painting.  I also enjoyed the book for the quality of its writing,
which hits just the right note of seriousness or silliness when the
story calls for it, and has some wonderfully witty dialogue and
descriptions.  I think I probably was lucky to happen onto this book
-- if Banks hasn't been lucky enough to sell an American edition of
this book, you may have to order it just as I did.

   'Earth got blown up in that one too... ah...'  Graham kept
   snapping his fingers.  Slater was silent for a second, gazing
   disdainfully at Graham's snapping fingers, then he said tiredly,

   'Graham, either concentrate on searching for the title of the
   book you're talking about or devote your full energies to
   practising calling for a waiter; I'm not convinced you possess
   the RAM for doing both at the same time.'

Slightly suspicious that 'Iain Banks' is a pseudonym for Douglas
Adams,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 02:42:47 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60jB)
Subject: Question on Donald Barr

Can anyone tell me if Donald Barr has written any books or stories
other than _Space Relations_ and _A Planet in Arms_?  I loved both
of these books (even though he is one of the few authors who
occasionally makes me open the dictionary).

I don't read the SF mags and have not found anything in the
bookstores.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 18:02:24 EST
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query
From: BARBER%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Wayne Barber)

clunker!mary@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mary Shurtleff) writes:
>You could include in that list the lack of visual care.  If you're
>one of the many people who use some sort of corrective lenses,
>you'd be in deep trouble if you were marooned in a time which
>didn't have the technology to maintain your lenses.  For example,
>what if you got stuck in the Middle Ages without the sterilizer for
>your soft contact lenses?  If you had a pair of glasses as a backup
>and just happened to have them with you, you'd be a little better
>off, but you would still run the risk of having the glasses break
>with no means of replacing them.  You could, of course, try to
>reinvent the technology, but it would be tough....

This is an interesting point to bring up, since I recently read it
in a new book. _Architect of Sleep_ by Steven Boyett features a main
character who travels through a mysterious cave and enters an
alternate Earth where Raccoons are the dominant form of life.  The
character (I don't remember his name) had contact lenses he didn't
dare use and his glasses got broken. He was learning to live with
not being able to see well.

I cannot explain whether or not he reinvents the technology because
the book ends with a cliff hanger of sorts.  It is obviously going
to be a series but I have no idea how long it will be.  There was no
indication anywhere on the book that it was the first in a series.
I hate it when that happens!  (:-)

Has anyone else read this book and care to comment?  There are some
interesting ideas in it, but I'm not convinced that the world would
be as Boyett portrays it.

If you haven't heard of Boyett, he has only one other book out.
It's called _Ariel_, and is sort of a post-holocaust book.  Instead
of humans ruining the world, a Change took place and magic started
working and mythical beasts started appearing.  I enjoyed the book
quite a bit, but I wish he had explained the Change more thoroughly.

Wayne Barber
Bitnet: Barber@Portland

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 20:40:48 GMT
From: csun!aeusesef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: A Time Travel Query

BARBER%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
> This is an interesting point to bring up, since I recently read it
> in a new book. _Architect of Sleep_ by Steven Boyett...

Ok, here we go.
I read _Architect of Sleep_, and thought is was really pretty good.
It was somewhat original (enough so that I was kept interested), and
I was disappointed by the short length of it (almost didn't read it,
the cover blurb has Piers Anthony recommending it).

However, the ending is the *_worst_* ending I have ever seen!  It
sets up a nice dramatic situation, leaving me in suspense
(somewhat), waiting to find out a reason, when BAM! it just ends,
not explaining *anything* at all.

Disgusting.

Other than that, it is a good book.  If the sequel comes out, I will
buy it (hate being forced to, however), and probably enjoy it.

Read and enjoy.

Sean Fagan
aeusesef@csun.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 02:43:17 GMT
From: cuuxb!wbp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Walt Pesch)
Subject: Answer to Origins of "The Postman"

Kudos to all who came up collectively with the right answer.

And the answer...  "The Postman" is to some extent a "fix-up" of two
novellas, one called "The Postman" and the other called "Cyclops".
Both were originally published in IASFM, and both were on the Hugo
ballot for best novella of their respective years (with "Postman"
doing better).

The first section ends with Gordon really trying to play out his
postman ruse for the first time.  He wants to gain access to a
settlement that housed some people that stole a hord of prewar
goodies that he found in a doctors house.  The following added
sections continue to develop the postman character and go into more
detail on the state of the present US.

Walt Pesch
{ihnp4,akgua,et al}!cuuxb!wbp
cuuxb!wbp@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 17:53:09 GMT
From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Card

From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
>   I've never asked Card whether he considers himself a practicing
>Mormon, but I've been to one of his "secular humanist revivals" and
>question whether he still calls himself a practicing Christian of
>any stripe ("When I say, 'Do you BELIEVE?', I want you to answer
>'In what?'"). If you're at a con where he's doing one of these
>revivals, \\go//---they're very entertaining.

Scott Card is *very devoutly* a practicing Mormon; he really
believes in their teachings (mostly -- it's pretty obvious that he
is a big believer in evolution, but I seem to recall the most
flat-headed of Mormons end up on the same side as the
Fundumentalists on that -- but that isn't *really* a major
theological point to any but a few.)  Scott has been quoted as
thinking the work he does which he thinks *may* last a long time is
not his SF, but his radio plays and other audio works for the
Church.  (Greensboro NC paper recently.)

But it isn't as odd as it might seem -- when he says he believes in
everyone's right to doubt, and to believe what they like, and to
practice the religion they choose, and not to be censored because
they hold views that don't fit with Jimmy Swaggert and Jerry
Falwell, he's protecting *his* right to teach his kids that God sent
angels to reveal an extension of Christianity to Joseph Smith.
Fundies think the Mormons are misled and doomed unbelieving tools of
Satan just as much as they think we Buddhists are.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 20:57:05 GMT
From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight)
Subject: Copy of Philip K. Dick novel needed

Does anyone know where (and how) I can pick up a copy of Philip K.
Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?  None of my local
bookstores have it in stock.  Any leads appreciated.

Gary Knight
3604 Pinnacle Road, Austin, TX  78746  (512/328-2480).
Biopsychology Program, Univ. of Texas at Austin.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 07:00:13 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: book title found:  <Tunnel in the Sky>

   A few articles back someone was trying to remember the title of a
book in which students being sent to an unknown uncivilized world
for a survival course get stranded there for a long time, and have
to learn how to survive indefinitely.  The title is <Tunnel in the
Sky> by Robert A.  Heinlein.  I highly recommend this book.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
chiaraviglio@husc4.harvard.edu
seismo!husc4!chiaraviglio

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 05:57:34 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Another Example of "Science" Fiction

ee162fck@sdcc7.ucsd.EDU (Jude Poole) writes:
>By far the best sentient computer novel I have ever come across is
>'The two Faces of Tommorrow' by the best hard-sf writer around
>today, James P. Hogan.

   Since I am afraid people are sick of this "hard" sf discussion, I
will content myself by pointing out the fact that Hogan is another
good source for the claim that the "science" in so-called "hard" sf
is typically baloney.  In fact, Hogan makes blunders so stupid
that he makes Niven seem like "Physics Review" by comparison.

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 14:36:22 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
To: USERBHOU%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Date & Cause of Hubbard's Death

I had posted this complete obituary article to SF-Lovers back when
it was printed in the paper, so here's an excerpt:

From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Tuesday, January 28, 1986:

"L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer who founded the
controversial Church of Scientology three decades ago, has died, the
church announced Monday night.  He was 74.

Hubbard, who was last seen in public in 1980, died Friday [that
would have been 24 Jan. '86] of a stroke at his ranch near San Luis
Obispo..."

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 23:24:10 GMT
From: morgan@inst8.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark)
Subject: published after author's death

>I think L. Ron Hubbard died of a coronary, but I'm not positive.
>You can probably check in the second or third book for the date of
>his death -- I'm pretty sure it was in one of them.  As for
>Dianetics, well, I'm sure they'll keep re-releasing it as long as
>it sells, even if the author's dead..  (nothing new in this--look
>at the number of editions of Lord of the Rings! :-)

Not only that! Look at the number of new books JRR Tolkien has come
out with *since* his death! The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Lost
Tales, etc.  (well, all right, so they were stuff he had already
written. Still, I wonder when there won't be any more new books
published claiming to be by JRR Tolkien.)

Morgan Clark
(g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu.ARPA
morgan@pokey.wisc.edu.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 13:35:29 GMT
From: ihuxz!rls@rutgers.rutgers.edu (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Re: Anyone read John Steakley?

> That book by Steakley sounds very similar to "Starship Troopers"
> by Heinlein.  Powered armor, Bugs, futuristic infantry -- what
> else could you want :-) ?

Enough of people posted this this type of response to my original
posting that despite my dislike for Heinlein's writing style and my
usual rule to stay away from older science fiction, I got a copy of
"Starship Troopers."  Indeed there are many similarities between the
story plots but no similarity between the two author's styles.
"Armor" kept me glued to the book with what I think would be a more
realistic slant on human nature.  As with most of Heinlein's books
that I have read, "Starship Troopers" had some good points but many
parts of the books seemed to go on and on and on...  I put the book
down with only 25 pages to go and did not bother to finish it until
a week later.

Again, I enjoyed and would recommend "Armor" to any science fiction
reader looking for something new (with much less moralizing). I
appreciate some of the posting and replies that provided information
about Steakley and I hope he continues to write science fiction.

Rick Schieve
..ihnp4!ihuxz!rls

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 03:24:07 GMT
From: P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET
Subject: Re: Re: shadowtravel

> It is also to some extent implied that shadow existed before Amber

I'm not so sure of that. Although it's been a while since I read the
books, the impression I got was that without Amber, which was
basically a shadow of the Primal Pattern, no other shadows could
exist. I thought that shadows were just distorted images of Amber,
kind of like your own shadow if you stand in front of three or four
lights at the same time. It's hard to determine the true image from
this combination of shadows. Point is, if there was no Amber, there
would be nothing to cast an image of shadow (except maybe the
Courts?) and thus no shadow would or could exist without an Amber to
cast it.
   I wish my argument was as crystal clear as yours, because I agree
with every thing else you said. One more thing about Brand: could it
be that it was true, once they had walked the Pattern they could
just teleport anywhere? If it was, Brand was simply the only one who
had complete control over his visualizing of shadow, others had not
practiced enough. Or maybe he picked up some hints from Dworkin...?

Philip  Semanchuk
P5S@PSUVMB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Nov 86 1006-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #393
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Nov 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 393

Today's Topics:

       Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Sentient Computers (17 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 14:28:38 GMT
From: osu-eddie!jac@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James Clausing)
Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust)

berry@solaria.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes:
>In Steve Brust's YENDI, Vlad gets killed about a quarter of the way
>through the book.  This is interesting, since Vlad is the
>first-person narrator...

Speaking of Brust, I know he is out there somewhere (I remember a
posting by him last spring sometime).  Anyone out there (Mr. Brust?)
heard anything on the third book in the Jhereg-Yendi series?  I
think I remember him saying that it was a prequel to the other two
(I could be wrong).  When will it be out?

Jim Clausing
CIS Department
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@ohio-state.CSNET
jac@ohio-state.ARPA
jac@osu-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 00:20:44 GMT
From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust)

jac@osu-eddie.UUCP (James Clausing) writes:
>Speaking of Brust, I know he is out there somewhere (I remember a
>posting by him last spring sometime).  Anyone out there (Mr.
>Brust?)  heard anything on the third book in the Jhereg-Yendi
>series?  I think I remember him saying that it was a prequel to the
>other two (I could be wrong).  When will it be out?

TECKLA should be out this month.  It is very good, but is not a
`prequel', but a sequel to JHEREG.  Vlad is trying to figure out how
to spend the 65,000 gold he got for offing Mellar, and Cawti is
getting involved in a revolution.  Vlad thinks the revolution is a
*bad* idea and there is some tension...  This is mostly explained in
the cover blurb (at least on the prepublication flat I saw).

THE SUN, MOON AND STARS, also by Steve, should be out early next
year in a limited edition

Steve is now a full time writer and has only intermittent access to
the net, though he can be reached on BIX fairly regularly, where he
is one of the moderators of the 'sf' conference.

Berry Kercheval
berry@s1-c.arpa
mordor!berry

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 86 00:20:16 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust)

berry@solaria.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes:
>TECKLA should be out this month.

No. sorry. It didn't go out as a December Ace release, but is
supposed to go out as a January release.  At least that is what *The
Other Change of Hobbit* said yesterday.  Try again the third week of
January, they said.  Grrrrrh!

>Steve is now a full time writer and has only intermittent access to
>the net, though he can be reached on BIX fairly regularly, where he
>is one of the moderators of the 'sf' conference.

But you can send him mail at hoptoad!starfire!brust. hoptoad talks
to lll-crg, utzoo, ihnp4, sun and a bunch of other lesser known
sites.  hoptoad!starfire!brust@lll-crg.arpa should work for those of
you that need an arpanet account.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura
toad@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 23:13:49 GMT
From: makaiwi@cory.Berkeley.EDU (KHYRON the DESTROYER)
Subject: Re: Canonnical List of Sentient Computer Novels

My submission is actually a Trilogy of books packaged under the
title of:

   The Minervian Experiment, by James P. Hogan (I hope)

The stories involve several highly intelligent computer systems.  Of
course, these computers are products of an alien technology that has
had *Millions* of years to develop their technology.  As I recall,
the computers are constructed using organic molecules rather than
bulky silicon and such.

The first computer has a name like Ergon (or something), and is 25
millions years old (actually more like 25 due to a long trip at
.999999999999c).

Later, we are introduced to Visar and Jevex.  These systems are
truly *awesome* in scale.  Jevex is akin to Colossus raised to the
10th power.  It exists as a hyper-spacially linked network on three
or four planets.  Visar is much larger (20 worlds) and is so fast
that it can "mop the floor" with Jevex in less than a pico-second
(give or take an order of magnitude).

The best part of these systems is that they are capable of matching
to an individuals "brain waves" (for lack of a better term), and can
communicate directly with humans (and the aliens) via direct
"mind-link".

Since these three books are not specifically about these computer
systems, I am not sure if they qualify.  The systems are very
prominent in the books.

If I recall correctly, the books are:
   The Minervian Experiment,
   Gentle Giants of Ganymede, and
   Giants' Star.
But don't quote me on it.
(I loaned it to a friend, so I can't check the titles).

makaiwi@cory.Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 12:38:56 GMT
From: jc3b21!larry@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list

Has anyone mentioned the sentient computers that were stored with
the memories/personality of humans (and others) in the HeeChee
books?  The one that comes to mind immediately is the computer
referred to as 'Dead Men' on the CHON Food Factory ship.

Lawrence F. Strickland
larry@jc3b21
Dept. of Engineering Technology
St. Petersburg Jr. College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
Phone:  +1 813 341 4705
UUCP:  ...akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 19:28:39 -0500
From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu>
Cc: qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

One of the best sentient computer novels I've read is "Colossus: The
Forbin Project" by D.F. Jones.  It was written in the 60's and was
part of a trilogy.

Alexander Grossman
qu9j@cornella.bitnet
qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 03:26:45 GMT
From: hull@glory.dec.com (Al Hull - resident at Ford Motor Credit
From: 313-845-2817)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computers

I still haven't seen mention of the novel "Ariel", by Jack M.
Bickham. I have the story in paperback, published by TOR Books,
first printing Oct. 85.

Ariel is an AI computer that accidentally becomes sentient when the
developers's son feeds massive amounts of data to the system,
unknown to the father.  The novel also has some industrial intrigue
with Japanese companies, etc.

Rating on a -4 to 4 scale: 2

Al Hull
Digital Equipment Corp.
Great Lakes Application Center
Farmington Hills, MI.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 09:37 PST
From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Sentient computers

I'm sorry that the canonical list of sentient computer stories has
been limited to novels, because a great many of the best sentient
computer stories were of the short variety.  Including the first and
most classic short-short where they fired up the first sentient
computer and asked it "Is there a God?" and the computer said,
"There is now!"  It was a one page story that I read LONG ago.
Perhaps Jerry can enlighten us as to where.

The point of all of this is that shorts should not be forgotten.
Remember and read Larry Niven's Berserker story that appeared in
Omni and later in Fred Saberhagen's Berserker Base collection, "A
Teardrop Falls."  We're talking serious downloads here.

The entire Asimov robot series started out with an large sentient
electronic brain that covered a whole floor.  I forget which story
it was, but I seem to recall a little kid asking it something that
caused it to hang.  After that we got the robots, which are
technically sentient computers, but have also been arbitrarily
excluded from this list.  [ As an aside, why don't Asimov's robots
use radio?  The damn things are talking some "compressed speech" via
air in Robots and Earth or whatever that muck I just read was
called.  Can't they even get original names?  I think radio would be
a logical precursor to telepathy. ]

At any rate, please don't discriminate against the short stories.
They contain more of the original ideas that have made SF what it is
today than the novels.  And short stories don't go "To be
continued..."

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 15:40:55 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Sentient computers

This probably doesn't count, but in Greg Bear's CORONA, there is a
monitoring system which has the personalities of 6 Starfleet
captains stored in it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1986 16:02 EST
From: Dave Goldblatt  <USERBH0U%CLVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computers

A few more about sentient computers:

Jack Chalker's Well of Souls series (5 books) and his Soul Rider
series as well (although it's doubtful you could tell from ther
first book, but the clues ARE there.. :-).

Also G.C. Edmondson and C.M. Kotlan's "The Cunningham Equations" and
"The Black Magician", which I just purchased today (and haven't read
any of yet) are also supposed to have a sentient computer..

dg

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 15:58:26 GMT
From: diku!khan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Klaus Hansen)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

I would suggest some or all of the following may fall into this
category of books featuring sentient computers:

Fred Saberhagen:        Berserker's Planet
Robert A. Heinlein:     The moon is a harsh mistress
Arthur C. Clarke:       2001
Piers Anthony:          Split Infinity
Piers Anthony:          Mute
Fred Hoyle:             The message from Andromeda (?)
A.E. van Vogt:          The world of Null-A (??)
D.F. Jones:             Colossus

and a detective novel maybe featuring a such computer (this is part
of the mystery to be solved):

Lou Cameron:            Cybernia

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 00:39:20 GMT
From: abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott)
Subject: Sentient computers

How about Azimov's "The Last Question".  I read it many years ago as
a teenager but it impressed me enough then that I still remember it
now.

Mark Abbott
abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 23:36:19 GMT
From: utastro!ethan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Sentient computers

There is a series of stories by (James?) Gilliland about a space
colony called Rosinante.  In the book there are a number of sentient
computer characters.  Evidently when built these machines are
automatically property, but are quite often given their freedom upon
the death of their owner.  (The books implied that the probable
alternative was a memory wipe.)  A free computer is referred to as
"Corporate" e.g. "Corporate Skakash" whose book "Meditations on
Nothingness" is well on its way to being the state religion of
Rosinante by the end of the series.

The books also feature a number of cute ideas.  My favorite is a
terrorist squad referred to as "Contra Darwin" which assassinates
biologists who cast doubt on scriptural truth.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 14:23:33 GMT
From: druhi!bryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: Canonnical List of Sentient Computer Novels

makaiwi@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP writes:
> My submission is actually a Trilogy of book packaged under the
> title of:
>       The Minervian Experiment, by James P. Hogan (I hope)
> The first computer has a name like Ergon (or something), and is 25
> millions years old (actually more like 25 due to a long trip at
> .999999999999c).

ZORAC not Ergon.

They are called "Inherit the Stars," "The Gentle Giants of Ganymede"
and "Giants' Star".  Two out of three ain't too bad.

I've never seen this packaged as a trilogy.  Is it one large book
with the three books in it, or a boxed set of three books, or what?

John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems
12110 N. Pecos, #8C350
Denver, CO  80234
USENET:  ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
PHONE:   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 17:38:03 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: Sentient computers

ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) writes:
>There is a series of stories by (James?) Gilliland about a space

Alexis.

He's a former Washington bureaucrat which is where a lot of the
background comes from.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Nov 86 07:20:12-PST
From: MARK WROTH <W.WROTH@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Sentient computers/recommendation

   Folllowing some of the recent discussion (which I picked up in
the middle) on Net-SF-Lovers on sentient computers reminded me of
_Valentina:_Soul_in_Sapphire_ by Joseph Delaney and Marc Stiegler.
The premise is a self aware AI program (created by 'mutation' of a
very large non-aware program in transmission between hosts) and some
of the resulting fun and games. It's fairly well written, & worth
reading if you like hard-sf with mindgames.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 19:23:27 GMT
From: utastro!fritz@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Fritz Benedict)
Subject: Re: Sentient computers

From: Garrett Fitzgerald
> This probably doesn't count, but in Greg Bear's CORONA, there is a
> monitoring system which has the personalities of 6 Starfleet
> captains stored in it.

This probably doesn't count either, but Greg Bear's EON contains a
computer with EVERYBODY'S personality stored in it! He must like
that ploy.

Fritz Benedict  (512)471-4461x448
uucp: {...noao,ut-sally}!astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU!fritz
arpa: fritz@ut-ngp
snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX  78712

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 22:56:54 GMT
From: gockel@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Anne Gockel)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

_Millenium_ by John Varley included a fairly powerful and basically
sentient computer.  The ending was somewhat corny, but you can't
have everything.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 20:41:10 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Sentient computers and mind-computer access (possible
Subject: spoiler)

> vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James)
> Roger Zelazny's "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" is not a novel
> (it won the hugo in the novella cat.(I think it was novella, it
> could have been a novellette)) does directly deal with direct
> access.

**** SPOILER WARNING ****

(Hmmm... It is odd that I cannot even tell you what I'm spoiling
without spoiling it.  Well.  You Have Been Warned, so:)

If you really want a good Zelazny example, why not
_Doorways_in_the_Sand_?  It is a "surprise" revelation at the end of
the novel that the whole thing has been about direct
human-to-sentient-computer interface... or maybe that's direct
sentient-computer-to-human interface?

Worse, of course.... it can't even be put on a cannonical list of
SCNs, because such would be a spoiler, but it is a REALLY GOOD, and
REALLY CANNONICAL example of an SCN, sort of a cross between
_Needle_ and _Neuromancer_, and so it really ought to be on the
list, but...

Sort of an almost-recursive Excedrin headache.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 02:59:48 GMT
From: ee162fck@sdcc7.ucsd.EDU (Jude Poole)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress
Subject: report)

By far the best sentient computer novel I have ever come across is
'The two Faces of Tommorrow' by the best hard-sf writer around
today, James P. Hogan.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Dec 86 0944-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #394
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 394

Today's Topics:

          Books - Barr & Brust (4 msgs) & Clarke & Dick &
                  Effinger & Forward & Hogan (2 msgs) &
                  Palmer & Shaw & Steakley & Van Vogt (2 msgs) &
                  Story Request & Main Characters Dying (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 86  9:38:55 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: More Books by Donal Barr ...

My packrat memory tells me that Donald Barr, the sf writer, is
actually/also Donald Barr Chidsey, the historian/historical writer.
Try looking under this name -- probably (sigh) under "mainstream"
(i.e., non-sf).

This would explain the high density of political issues and rhetoric
in SPACE RELATIONS, and why the climax is more societal than
personal.

daniel dern
ddern@bbn.com (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 02:00:25 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Dying main characters (actually, Steven Brust)

   Steve Brust's new book in the Yendi-Jhereg series should be out
around January, depending on how you look at it.  Steve said
something about it being available earlier, but I don't recall
exactly.  If you think of January as the due date I don't think
you'll be sorry.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 86 02:07 EDT
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Re: TECKLA by Steven Brust

hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) writes:
>No. sorry. It didn't go out as a December Ace release, but is
>supposed to go out as a January release.  At least that is what
>*The Other Change of Hobbit* said yesterday.  Try again the third
>week of January, they said.  Grrrrrh!

Try another store, then: TECKLA should be in the stores around
December 20 given East Coast delivery schedules (the December Ace
releases are already on the stands, and have been for over a week).
Of course, with the holiday season, I wouldn't count on deliveries
being as prompt as they might be.  I don't think there's a single
paperback house that doesn't get their books into stores in the
month preceding the release date.  Ace releases generally hit the
stores in the third full week of the month BEFORE the official month
of release. I'd check with TOCoH again; they should know better.

And on the subject of Brust and Vlad, the fourth book, EASTERNER --
a prequel to YENDI which includes, among other things, the charming
tour of Deathsgate Falls alluded to in the books already published
-- had "two chapters and four pages" written as of Halloween
weekend.

Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 18:43:08 GMT
From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Dying main characters

In Steve Brust's YENDI, Vlad gets killed about a quarter of the way
through the book.  This is interesting, since Vlad is the
first-person narrator...

berry

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 19:15:19 GMT
From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Deaths of main characters (YENDI)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>berry@solaria.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes:
>>In Steve Brust's YENDI, Vlad gets killed about a quarter of the
>>way through the book.  This is interesting, since Vlad is the
>>first-person narrator...
>That doesn't count; in a world where any dead person can be
>revivified for five thousand gold (modulo getting your head chopped
>off), death isn't *quite* as meaningful...

True, but is DOES die!  It's not quite as final, but still
unpleasant.

>Is he doing Vlad's trip to Deathsgate Falls?  I'm *very*
>interested.

Steve tells me he is NOT doing the trip to Deathsgate Falls. Yet.
*I'm* very interested too.  And what about that giant jhereg?

Anyway, the next book is TECKLA, which should be out this month, and
the one after that (I am told) is EASTERNER.  Further deponent saith
not.

Berry Kercheval
berry@s1-c.arpa
mordor!berry

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 19:57:14 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

mangoe@mimsy.UUCP writes:
>Gene Ward Smith writes:
>>   Did "Rendezvous with Rama" really have reactionless drive?
>"Rama" is really a strange example to bring up, [...].  Yes, as the
>ship accelerates away one of the characters says "Well, there goes
>Newton's Third Law."  Yet few people have a problem with this-- and
>even the characters in the book are amazed by this rewriting of
>physics.

Furthermore, it isn't really clear that a reactionless drive is
being displayed here.  The ship is quite close to the sun at that
point, and could well be using some sort of field to interact with
it.  The fact that one of the characters in the book jumps to a
conclusion about what is going on does not mean that the readers
have to.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 15:44:31 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: Phillip K. Dick book search

Gary Knight writes:
>Does anyone know where (and how) I can pick up a copy of Philip K.
>Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?  None of my local
>bookstores have it in stock.  Any leads appreciated.

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but the paperback was
re-published under the title BLADERUNNER when the film came out. The
original title was, I think, mentioned in *very* small print!

Hope this is of some help.

Jim.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 86 16:12:16 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Collection search

Several months ago, a short story by George Alec Effinger called
"All the Last Wars at Once" was mentioned.  I have since lost track
of what collections this story appears in.  Could someone help out?
Any of you bibliographers out there? jmb?

Brett Slocum
ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 01:28:26 GMT
From: reality1!james@rutgers.rutgers.edu (james)
Subject: Good SF = possible SF ?

What about Dragon's Egg by Robert Forward?  Anyone care to comment
on any one of a number of things he does here?  I have in mind in
particular his power generation system around Egg and the
"elevator".

James R. Van Artsdalen
...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 08:08:27 GMT
From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Another Example of "Science" Fiction

gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>Since I am afraid people are sick of this "hard" sf discussion, I
>will content myself by pointing out the fact that Hogan is another
>good source for the claim that the "science" in so-called "hard" sf
>is typically baloney.  In fact, Hogan makes blunders so stupid that
>he makes Niven seem like "Physics Review" by comparison.

Would you be so kind as to enlighten us poor imbeciles who just read
the books to enjoy them rather than to pick them apart as to which
authors write to your specifications on scientific accuracy?

Thanks in advance
David L. Smith
sdcsvax!sdcc18!ee161aba

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 86 18:02:49 GMT
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Hogan, etc.

> From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
> Since I am afraid people are sick of this "hard" sf discussion, I
> will content myself by pointing out the fact that Hogan is another
> good source for the claim that the "science" in so-called "hard"
> sf is typically baloney.  In fact, Hogan makes blunders so stupid
> that he makes Niven seem like "Physics Review" by comparison.

I sometimes enjoy Hogan's stuff, but I generally find it a bit hard
to take.  (1) He often depends far too much on the "science".  Then
when it's painfully bogus, there's nothing else there.  The long
explanations don't help either since they're both unconvincing and
boring.  (2) Much of the "science" is reactionary.  Hi-particles
(the Genesis Machine), for example, are just a way to pretend that
relativity and quantum mechanics never happened.  (3) The political
views of Hogan's heros are often questionable.  Typically, they
decide they're just the right people to decide everything for
everyone else (e.g., Thrice Upon a Time).  And Hogan, of course,
tries to make them right: their enemies are shown to be irrational,
foolish, or evil.  (4) Except for token gestures, the Hogan
universes are sexist.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 04:58:18 GMT
From: ncr-sd!matt@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Matt Costello)
Subject: Re: Stupid Smart People and Palmer's Emergence

gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>   Before we again forget about Palmer's "Emergence", I think it
>would be fun to analyize it from another point of view.  [
>Describes the spontaneous mutation of "homo post hominem" in that
>novel ] ... These are clearly all separate changes in the genetic
>code, and some at least (the last one clearly) are not just minor
>changes, but massive re-write jobs. It is quite obviously not
>plausible to assume that this happened fortuitously. The clear
>implication is that some unknown agency (I propose a black
>monolith) has been deliberately tampering with human evolution.

I don't recall any mention on the net of a more recent Palmer book
called "Threshold".  It also deals with extraordinary people.  The
main character is the only one we see but reference is made to at
least one other.

What has me terribly worried is the possibility that both
"Emergence" and "Threshold" occur in the same universe.  If so,
there is an "unknown agency", (which is not a black monolith :-)
clearly identified.  Putting both books in the same universe should
turn the sequel(s) into an absolute mess (worse than Asimov).  I'm
only assuming the sequels, but both books leave the possibility wide
open.

I've been fairly oblique to prevent any spoilers.  Beware of
followups to this article.  I'd be very interested to hear what
others think about the possibility of both "Emergence" and
"Threshold" being in the same universe.

Matt Costello
matt@ncr-sd.SanDiego.NCR.com (not registered yet)
{sdcsvax,dcdwest,ihnp4}!ncr-sd!matt

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 28-Nov-86 17:49:58-GMT
From: RICK BLAKE (on Essex DEC-10) <rick%essex.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Dyson sphere world

fortune!stirling@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Patrick Stirling) writes:
>There's another book you might also love to hate (:-)), about a
>Dyson sphere world. It's like Ringworld except it's a full sphere
>around a sun.  I'm afraid I can't remember its name or author
>(anyone?). The world is found by accident at the beginning of the
>book.

This sounds like "Orbitsville" by Bob Shaw. There is also a sequel,
"Orbitsville Departure", in which the reasons for its fabrication
are revealed.

Rick
rick%essex@cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 22:31:13 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Comparison of _Armor_ and _Starship_Troopers_

POSSIBLE SPOILERS!  YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

rls@ihuxz.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes:
> "Armor" kept me glued to the book with what I think would be a
> more realistic slant on human nature.

Ghak!  "Realistic slant on human nature"?  You think a story about
an architypical hero-figure is realistic?  A story where soldiers
are used and abused as badly as they were, yet where desertion and
revolution is not a problem is realistic?  Where a single man in a
lightly armed exoskeleton takes on an entire starship and a passle
of ground troops, and makes mincemeat out of 'em?  And that's just
off the top of my head!  REALISTIC?  Gimme a break!  Part of the
charm of the thing was that it was *NOT* realistic, it was a
hero-myth.

Now, you may (as I do) disagree with many of the fundamental
assumptions and beliefs about the world spouted by the characters in
ST, but the story was much more realistic than Armor, or so I
believe.  Or do you find government by retired military
unbelievable?  Is the fact that they try to indoctrinate high school
students with the idea that this government is a Good Thing
unbelievable?  The fact that men would lay down their lives for
"manifest destiny" in one form or another unbelievable?  Just what
is "unrealistic" here?  G'wan!  Kwicher kidd'n, ya crazy galoot!

> I enjoyed and would recommend "Armor" to any science fiction
> reader looking for something new (with much less moralizing). I
> appreciate some of the posting and replies that provided
> information about Steakley and I hope he continues to write
> science fiction.

Well, I soit'ny agree with the recommendation, and the hope for
future SF from Steakley.  But... uh... did you *REALLY* not think he
was preaching?  I mean, really!  One of the main themes is the big,
bad, military industrial complex chewing up cannon fodder and
spitting it out... and he's not preaching?  Whew!

By contrast, while RAH preaches about manifest destiny, "expand or
die", and laces the story with invalid social darwinism and other
silly things in ST, I certainly don't think he preached any *more*
than Steakley did in Armor.  I suspect it is just that Rich agrees
with Steakley and disagrees with Heinlein, and thus notices the
pulpit pounding in the latter case but not the former.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 19:05:32 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Earth's one immortal man

 A couple of days ago I got into a discussion with someone about the
"Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. VanGoght (sp?) and I was reminded
about a mysterious character who was never explained.  He was only
called Earth's one immortal man or something like that.  I believe
it also said he founded the Weapon Shops.  Was this character ever
developed in any other book or was he just a plot cupon?

Thanx

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 19:10:14 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Earth's one immortal man

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
> A couple of days ago I got into a discussion with someone about
>the "Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. VanGoght (sp?) and I was
>reminded about a mysterious character who was never explained.  He
>was only called Earth's one immortal man or something like that.  I
>believe it also said he founded the Weapon Shops.  Was this
>character ever developed in any other book or was he just a plot
>cupon?

The author is A E Van Vogt, and the theme is developed further in
The Weapon Makers.  From these books comes one of my favourite SF
quotations: "The right to bear arms is the right to be free".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 86 15:24 EST
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Story Query

Title and author sought for a short story that to the best of my
recollection appeared in Astounding in the late 1950s or early
1960s.  Epigraph was the folk song _Samuel Hall_ ("For my name is
Samuel Hall...  and I hate you one and all ...)  I think the topic
was computer sabotage but I may have misremembered that (memory is
the second thing to go with age.  The first is ...  ah ...  oh,
never mind.)

Any pointers out there?  Thanx,

Earl (Boebert -at MIT-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 14:24:40 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Dying main characters

In _Camber the Heretic_, most of the main characters die well before
the end of the book.  Or do they?

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 20:50:44 GMT
From: cbuxc!dim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: Re: main characters dying

In Dennis L. McKiernan's _Iron Tower Trilogy_, hell, *everybody*
dies at the end, several of old age.  Of course, in the main
adventure only one _central_ character dies...

And in _The Silver Call_...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Dec 86 0950-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #395
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 395

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Time Travel (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86  12:01:53 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: No time travel theory?

Having been a fan of sf since I was 10, I am now 19, I feel that I
have seen literally hundreds of movies, TV shows, books, and comics
concerning time travel. I was always very disappointed that very few
of them had a practical knowledge of time traveling. There have been
many different basic ways of doing it. Traveling through a black
hole to emerge into our universe at a different time. But how would
you avoid being crushed by infinite gravity? Traveling faster than
the speed of light so you would go backwards in time. But to travel
faster than the speed of light you would need infinite energy, which
doesn't exist, and have to overcome entropy, which is again
impossible. Somehow utilize tachyons, particles that travel faster
than light, backwards in time instead of forewards, and must lose
energy to speed up and gain energy to slow down. But tachyons are
hypothetical particles that were discovered by a curious physicist
who changed a sign in one of his equations from a + to a -.  A
friend of mine has another theory. The universe has four basic
forces: 1. electricity 2. gravity 3. strong nuclear force 4. weak
nuclear force. If infinite gravity would cause you to have infinite
acceleration you go faster than light and hence backward in time.
Why couldn't electricty have the same effect. Since the electric
force is millions of times stronger than the gravitational force, a
much smaller quantity of electricty would be needed to achieve time
dilation. Of course here's the problem, how would you contain such
an enormous electrical charge in a small area? The charge would rip
apart the atoms in the area long before time dilation was reached.
Does anyone else have some other suggestions?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 08:02:52 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your
>person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D.  You
>would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and
>in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would
>not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you
>always.  What I want to know is, what would that kit contain?

Among other things, a toothbrush.  Maybe two or three, even.  Think
about it -- it's REALLY painful to have a bad cavity, and even a
hundred years ago, dentistry was done by the local blacksmith in
many areas.  In addition, some penicillin might be nice; although
I'm not sure of its shelf life, if you didn't have need of it really
soon, someone else you bump into might, and it could very well make
someone wish to protect you for your help.  Another very useful item
would be a pistol with a little ammunition; it might get you out of
trouble in the short term.  In the long term, nothing you take back
will help all that much, I think, as it will wear out or be used up
over time; if you depend on something too much, running out will be
deadly.  Robert Heinlein mentioned this in one of his novels, where
a group of high- school and college students are stranded for an
indefinite time on another planet for their survival course final
exam.  The title escapes me, but it's around three AM here. . . .

Michael A. Justice
BITNet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET:  boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:  ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
ARPA:  boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
AT&T:  (home:) 787-4189
       (work1:) 353-2784
       (work2:) 353-9063

------------------------------

Date: Thu 20 Nov 86 14:37:20-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: re: the time traveller's kit

The challenge didn't specify WHERE I would be dumped. So, since more
than half of the world is covered by water: take a liferaft !

(Actually, we should pack a spacesuit, reentry vehicle, and enough
fuel to find the planet ... but enough.)

Let us refine the question: I am to be dumped into a human-occupied
territory, and I am told beforehand which one, and when.

Well, now we get into cases. I could take some clotting factor to
Rasputin and be the power behind the power behind the throne ? Hmm.
A short life but a randy one! In most cultures, I'd do better to set
up as a tattoo artist than as a doctor.

Really, though, the first thing I would do, is to read up, and to
start plastic-coating my notes. Perhaps microfiche, and a hand
viewer ? I, for one, wouldn't care to have a major enterprise
depending on my memory. (Say, bwana, does this nitroglycerine stuff
mind being near the cookfire ? )

As for packing an Uzi ... gee, the bullets kinda get used up
quickly. Maybe a nice swordproof Kevlar suit would last longer.

Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 86 20:27:22 GMT
From: ttidca!hollombe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your
>person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D.  You
>would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and
>in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would
>not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you
>always.  What I want to know is, what would that kit contain?

Depends how you define "little" and whether I have to continue with
my "normal" life while carrying it.  Still (off the top of my head)
...

A U.S. Marine survival manual.
Flint, steel and tinder.
Sewing needles (_Lots_ of these.  Extremely valuable for trade.)
Survival knife.
Gold and gems, both in small pieces.
Solar powered calculator (fanciest one I could find)
Fresnel magnifier (at least 3" x 6")
Clothing would be rugged, warm and layered.  No zippers or snap
  buttons, but velcro is probably ok except on shoes/boots.

I'd probably also study martial arts with emphasis on hand to hand
combat, knives, staves, archery and misc.  swords.  Likewise, a
course in blacksmithing or similar craft would be useful.

Note that "sometime A.D." covers an enormous range of technology and
cultures.  Also, no mention is made of location.  Up 'til about 500
years ago where I am now was mostly desert occupied by a few Native
American tribes.  Not much to work with there, though inventing the
wheel might be useful.  Likewise the plow, horse-collar, irrigation
and crop rotation.

It might behoove me to relocate to Europe, around the Mediterranean,
if the trip back in time is known to leave my location unchanged.

If the time is recent enough for a Patent Office to exist, try
inventing the paperclip, stapler, or spray can.

Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
Santa Monica CA  90405
{philabs,randvax,trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 10:32 EST
From: OCONNOR DENNIS MICHAEL        <OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: What to take back in time

IF your going back in time, take :

1. A raincoat
2. A snowmobile-ing suit
3. A bolt-action hunting rifle, w/ plenty of ammo
4. A telescopic sight for the rifle ( doubles as telescope )
5. A stainless-steel knife that can be affixed as a bayonet
6. Two same-caliber revolvers, one long-barreled, one short, and ammo
7. A sawed-off double-barrel shotgun with plenty of ammo
8. A guide to edible plants, real herbal remedies, poisons
9. A first-aid kit plus plenty of really effective drugs :
    aspirin, morphine, penicillin, tetracyclene,
    amphetamines, barbituites, Tagamet
10. concentrated non-aerosol insect repellent
11. Paperback introductory textbooks/dictionaries on Latin, Ancient
    Greek, Sanskrit, Ancient Chinese... (The major ancient languages)
12. A dog trained to protect YOU, personally. ( Better would be
    to take a second person to watch your back ).
13. _Encyclopedia Britanica_ and _Van Nostrands Scientific
    Encyclopedia_ and whatever on microfilm in sturdy waterproof
    metal containers
14. A plastic fresnel lens to read the microfilm with (awkward but
    works ), and a small folding metal frame to hold it, the film,
    etc..
15. Hi-test fishing line, piano wire and aramid rope, and fish hooks
16. A swiss-army-type knife and a diamond-dust-coated survival saw
17. The best motorcycle or crash helmet you can get
18. Timberland boots, a pair of sneakers, rugged clothing
19. A small amount of copper, silver, gold and diamonds.
20. A back-packing tent and sleeping bag.
21. An axe, plus a file anda stone for it and the knife in 4
22. A couple of rolls of Duct Tape.

The IDEA is to take enough equipment to survive in the wild 'till
you've got your bearings and learned the language. The tools are all
simple, easy to maintain and ( possibly ) could be duplicated using
local technology. Several items could be used as "trade items", like
the drugs ( build yourself a rep as a healer ), the fishing line,
and the copper through diamonds ( don't flash gold at poor people ).
Then you use "your" ( EncBrit and VNSciEnc ) incredible knowledge to
become a big success.

Dennis O'Connor

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 18:26:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: re: TIME TRAVEL

Following is a non-exhaustive list of skills that I feel would
provide a usable/saleable skill in the past:

Physics
Mechanical Engineering
Higher Mathematics
Basic Math/Reading/Writing
History
Chemistry
Basic Electrical Theory
Medicine
Philosophy
Forestry/Outdoor Survival
Husbandry/Vetrinary Science
Astronomy
Musical Skills

   Anyone trained in any of the above could have a great impact on
past society.  Imagine the effect an Electrical or Mechanical
Engineer could have: simple batteries, motors and machines that we
take for granted would be quite a novelty back then, and not, I
believe beyond the manufacturing technology of that era.
   However, even the most skilled of craftsmen cannot accomplish
much without material resources to work with.  It would be vitally
important to find a patron; either someone famous in the 20th
century for his work in the past (Newton, Galileo, Huygens, Pastuer,
to name a few) or someone you could convince to invest money in you
and your ideas.  This might be quite difficult.  Letters took months
to travel between cities in those days, and there is the language
barrier to contend with as well.  Many of the great minds of that
era did not speak English.
   The most pressing needs would be those of immediate survival.
Food, shelter, cash, things of that nature.  One can obtain these
things legally or illegally - the first being safer but much slower
considering the wage levels in the 1700's.  For the first few days
one might be able to depend upon the kindness of others, but the
subject of a steady job would come up sooner or later.  A person
from this era is not really physically fit for heavy day labor of
the type that employed so many people then.  However, the clerical
skills most 20th century men and women are far superior to those
possessed by your average 17th-18th century laborer.  As a result,
there might be a position available in the court of a king or as an
accountant or bookkeeper.  Even the simple mechanical devices that
we all take for granted now, and could easily diagram or reproduce
(given resoures) could be worth something 200-300 years ago.  A
cheese grater, the concept of a chain-driven gear, the bicycle, a
paper airplane, a ballon, all of these would be new, back then.
   Initial survival would be equally difficult for people of all
professions, but those trained in scientific or technical fields,
and well versed in the basics of said fields would have a better
chance of climbing the ladder, of actually influencing the age they
were dropped into.  This is not to say that artists or writers or
business people have no chance of doing so.  Exclusive knowledge of
a subject brings one power, and the technical fields, being more
closely tied to the manipulation of the material world, bring power
over it.

Peter Webb.
{allegra|decvax|mit_eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!webb
or {amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!webb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 86  20:42:46 EST
From: Castell%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Chip
Subject: Messing up the past

There are lots of hazards involved with travelling into the past.
The classic problem is the good old grandfather paradox- what if you
kill your own grandfather before he had any children. Then you
wouldn't have been born to go back in time in the first place, etc.
Doctor Who runs up against this a lot, but it gives an explanation
of what would happen if you went back into your own past and met
yourself- the time differential would short-circuit and there would
be a thoroughly unpredictable release of energy- this was the crux
of the story "Mawdryn Undead". Related to this is changing the
course of history, which is given a different explanation in every
sf plotline that deals with it. Then, of course, there are the
hazards related to where you are. For example, I would give medieval
Spain a wide berth, because the Spanish Inquisition would take one
look at my Casio watch and start firing the ovens. Even if you were
in appropriate period dress, and weren't carrying anything blatantly
anachronistic, your accent and general manner would attract
attention.

All that aside, there are several periods of history I would like to
visit.  One of these is the ancient Mycenaean civilization, to see
if the Trojan War really happened. Classical Greece and Rome are
also high on my list.  10th-century Iceland comes to mind, as I've
always liked the Icelandic sagas of the period, and also Elizabethan
England, because I like Shakespeare. As far as making lots of money,
one thing to do would be to put a large sum of money in a bank of
the period that's still around in your own time, and go back to 1986
and collect the interest. Along the same lines is the idea of buying
a lot of things that are priceless antiques now, and selling them
for stratospheric prices when you get back to 1986. In the 1979
Doctor Who episode "City of Death", the main villain was an escaped
Jagaroth pilot whose spaceship had exploded in Earth's distant past
and split him into 6 fragments of himself, scattered across time.
They were together trying to galvanise the human race into
developing time travel so he could go back and stop the explosion.
He raised the money (or tried to) for this by having his
15th-century self commision 6 copies of the Mona Lisa from Leonardo
da Vinci, and hide them somewhere where his 1979 self could find
them and sell them for millions of pounds. Douglas Adams co-wrote
this story, in case you hadn't guessed. If you want to win royal
favor and get yourself a knighthood or something like that, you
could hire yourself out as a mercenary, using modern weapons like
Uzis and grenades. Needless to say, you'd need to be rather
circumspect about your fighting, but it could be done, and all of
the SCA would be envious as hell.

Happy time-travelling,
Chip Olson, aka Castell@UMass.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 16:21:47 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time Travel (yes, again!) (actually Peter Burke)

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
> Yes it's called "The Day the Universe changed" subtitled...I
> forget exactly "A personal view of change"? or something like that
> (I only see it each week:-). Anyway, Peter Burke is up to his
> usual standards (slightly

It's Jonathan Burke.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Dec 86 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #396
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 396

Today's Topics:

           Books - King & Niven (7 msgs) & Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 86 03:38:33 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: IT by Stephen King

One thing you gotta say for Steve King, he really is modest.  Some
writers think they're God's gift to the field of literature.  King
makes no such claims; he just wants to have fun.  Here's what King
said about his new novel IT (Viking, 1986; 1142pp): 'It's a real
long book -- one you wouldn't want to drop on your foot.' (From
LOCUS #309.)  Although I damn near dropped IT on my foot several
times, I did finish reading it and I enjoyed the experience.
There's too much in the book, as you can guess by its page count,
but King's fun shows up even on those extra pages.  IT takes you for
one hell of a ride and shows you some scenery you might have
forgotten about and ought to consider a bit more -- your childhood.

Back in 1958, seven children brought together by circumstance
established a club called the Losers.  Membership was determined by
the simple fact that they all were victims, picked on by parents,
older kids, fate.  Alone they were no match for bullies; together
they seemed to have a certain knack, an ability to complement each
others' weaknesses, and in the summer of 1958 they took on the
biggest bully of them all.  All but one of them has forgotten the
magic of their society, and in 1986 that one has discovered that the
bully is still around and determined to have revenge.  One by one he
contacts the others, reminding them of a pact each of them had made,
and each must confront the ugly knowledge that this bully was no
ordinary playground tough, that this bully was not human...  In
order to defeat It, they must recall how it was that they attacked
It as children, and as adults they are finding that thinking like a
child is the most difficult task of all.

A curious thing about IT is that at some deep level it has a theme
in common with H P Lovecraft's mythos stories.  The creature is
something from beyond space and time, something completely alien
which masquerades as the familiar.  The difference in approach is
striking, however: Lovecraft's protagonists always seem weak and
ineffectual, and they always write and speak in a very ornate and
formal prose; King's protagonists are common, vulgar, ordinary, and
they seem to have a fighting chance against a monster infinitely
bigger and nastier than they.  In that sense, IT is an
anti-Lovecraft novel...  While I'm listing tributes, I should note
that there are a few scenes that remind me of Ray Bradbury's classic
SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, a novel with a basic similarity of
theme to IT.

IT has taken a critical beating, and to a certain extent it deserves
it.  I believe Algis Budrys has described the novel as a grand
failure.  I'd prefer to portray it as a qualified success.  There's
definitely a problem with story gimmicks.  The Tibetan ritual of
Chued plays a major role in the plot, but it's introduced very
casually, and the vague description of it early on is contradicted
by its practice.  The husband of one of the characters is
elaborately drawn into the creature's web, and then is pretty much
abandoned, despite the potential for suspense and crisis of
character.  The unexplained forgetfulness which afflicts all the
characters is a very useful plot device which is too damn
convenient.  A rite of passage scene which forms part of a critical
escape in 1958 turns out to be completely superfluous in 1986.  I
could describe several more plot contraptions of this sort (Henry's
balls, the circle of seven or is it five?, the turtle, etc.) but you
probably get the idea...  I think the forgetting is the most
obnoxious of these problems; when hundreds of people are killed in
extremely gory ways, no one outside the protagonists' home town
seems to notice and almost no one in the town remembers, and King
provides no more than a trivial attempt to rationalize this.  (It
can be done; I fondly remember a novel by Phil Dick called THE
COSMIC PUPPETS in which a man finds out that his home town never
existed -- so he sets about creating it(!).)

Where IT succeeds is where it needs to succeed: in its gut feeling
for the difference between adults and children.  Many novels turn on
the transition of a character to maturity; King has completely and
charmingly reversed this too-common device -- his characters must
remember how to be children.  I certainly was a Loser when I was a
kid.  I used to get beaten up on the playground on a regular basis,
and I had a bunch of friends who were similarly low on the social
ladder.  We did silly things like play in the creek and investigate
storm drains, just like King's kids.  The cuss words in the
vocabulary, the casual attitude toward getting dirty, the ease with
which danger could be ignored, the melodramatic pitch of all events
-- these all ring true.  And most of all, as I think King says
somewhere, you never seem to have friends like you had when you were
a kid.  These kids are friends.  The authenticity of feeling is what
makes this novel work for me; the plot could have even more
McGuffins (and there are plenty!) but I'd still say I liked the
book.

Don't miss the inside joke on p. 549,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 02:28:28 GMT
From: desj@brahms (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>One thing to remember is that just because a certain evolutionary
>step is advantageous doesn't mean it will have already occurred.
>[...]  So, some things that have survival value are not around,
>because they have not had time to evolve yet.  [...]  Such traits
>will take a very long time to evolve, if they evolve at all.

   Which is exactly why it is completely implausible that they could
evolve in a few hundred years because of a comparatively slight
change in the environment, as Niven would have you believe.  The
point is that the lotteries do not add much to the already great
survival value of such a trait.
   Moral?  Add Niven to the long list of writers who don't
understand evolution.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 05:51:28 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

The error in "Ringworld" being referred to, I believe, is having the
Earth turned the wrong way.  It was corrected in later editions.

(side note: I remember some TV news program a few years back had a
graphics sequence which featured the Earth turning the wrong way.
After complaints, it was corrected.  Does anyone else remember
this?)

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 01:35:33 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Ringworld implausibilities

Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth.  Room-temperature
super- conductors are barely plausible; but cloth???  Anything
flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would be too thin to handle
the trick where they (**SPOILER**) use a strip of cloth, one end in
a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver sunflowers, to
``de-fang'' said sunflowers.

BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down in
flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in the
center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip plan to
take over the galaxy.  (They would know the truth about the Core
explosion.)  As a result, they may well be only half-true...

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
+1 216 155 1080
HOME:   6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210
CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case
ARPA: via relay.CS.NET
UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon}

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 01:43:36 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: If you're going to argue stories, at least get your facts
Subject: right!

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes:
>>We also discover that the puppeteers have been breeding for "luck"
>>in humans and seem to have succeeded-- an idea which clearly makes
>>no sense at all, because "luck", if it were an inheritable trait,
>>would be the ultimate in survival value; hence it would already
>>exist.
>
>How do you know it doesn't exist? Maybe we're extremely lucky. We
>wouldn't notice it, being used to our natural luck-level.

The point is that the puppeteers wouldn't be able to improve on the
result of natural selection for luck without direct genetic surgery
or somesuch.  The technique of the Birthright Lottery wouldn't have
any effect; anything selected for by that would have been selected
for long ago by the cavemen who managed to avoid the leopard...

>>In any case, the reasons given for the puppeteers belief in human
>>"luck" make no sense, since a better explanation would be the
>>secret use of human protectors in the human-Kzin wars.
>But there are no human protectors, as I explained above. Another
>Niven book, 'Protector' explains all about protectors, BTW.

The book PROTECTOR very much specifies the existence of human
protectors!  What do you think happened to the native population of
Home?

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
+1 216 155 1080
HOME:   6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210
CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case
ARPA: via relay.CS.NET
UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon}

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 16:22:13 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes:
> invented one kind of bolonium (GP hulls) for "There Is A Tide"
> (where

"Neutron Star" (there was a story titled "There Is A Tide", but it's
not the one under discussion).

> the whole puzzle was "what can get through an impenetrable hull?")
> he was stuck with it.  He had to have stasis fields for "World of
> Ptaavs" so then he was stuck with those (though it's not clear why
> you can't make a hull out of stasis fields.  Perhaps you can't
> make one concave?)

It seems to me that there would be severe problems with using stasis
fields as a hull.  Remember that anything inside a stasis field is
slowed down by at least several thousand times, which would be
rather inconvenient for an entire spaceship to have on all the time.
You can't have just a hull in stasis and the inside of the ship in
normal time because that would mean having two stasis field
boundaries, on the inside and outside surfaces of the hull, and
Niven clearly states that one stasis field cannot enclose another.
Besides a stasis field lets nothing pass thru (except gravitons,
apparently-- see "The Borderland of Sol") so even if you could make
a hull for your ship from a stasis field you couldn't see where
you're going.  Remember, GP hulls are designed to let thru visible
light.
  What you really need for a spaceship hull is one of Doc Smith's
"zones of force" and a full 5th-order projector so you can look out
thru it :-) (You think Niven's bad about implausible substances,
look at the Skylark series.)

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 86 05:58:45 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes:
>> He had to have stasis fields for "World of Ptaavs" so then he was
>> stuck with those (though it's not clear why you can't make a hull
>> out of stasis fields.  Perhaps you can't make one concave?)
>It seems to me that there would be severe problems with using
>stasis fields as a hull.  Remember that anything inside a stasis
>field is slowed down by at least several thousand times, which
>would be rather inconvenient for an entire spaceship to have on all
>the time.  You can't have just a hull in stasis and the inside of
>the ship in normal time because that would mean having two stasis
>field boundaries, on the inside and outside surfaces of the hull,
>and Niven clearly states that one stasis field cannot enclose
>another.

   Since other people have been responding to most of the rest of
this debate, I can clean up the scraps by dealing with the stasis
field stuff.  You missed Jordan Kare's point about concavity. Niven
never said the stasis field needs to be a convex region of space;
and if it is not, then we can leave room for a door (and sensors)
and have a really nifty cheap hull. And one could build the
Ringworld much more easily.

    Anyway, if something is really going to be "hard" sf, it ought
to explain things like how the stasis field connects to general
relativity, etc. If you think about it you see problems that don't
get addressed.

>(You think Niven's bad about implausible substances, look at the
>Skylark series.)

  Several people seem to think my point was that Niven is especially
bad; in fact I am employing him as an example of what's typical. Doc
Smith is of course much worse -- relativity? What's relativity?

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 18:55:53 GMT
From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>Niven never said the stasis field needs to be a convex region of
>space;

Stasis fields do not need to be convex.  Remember that in _WORLD OF
PTAVVS_ the Slaver's suit had a stasis generator built into it.  The
Slaver (whose name I forget) was, if I am not mistaken, of generally
humanoid form -- one head, two arms, two legs, a tail (well, mostly
humanoid).  I assert that therefore any reasonably fitting suit will
have regions of negative curvature.
  How about making a spaceship hull by having a stasis field that
folds in on itself (or is this what y'all meant?).  Imagine the
stasis field as a round lump of clay -- now remembery Topology 101
and continuously deform it into a hollow spaceship-shaped object.
The 'interior' of the field is now the INSIDE of the walls.
  Now, closing the door is something of a problem, but a mere
engineering detail.
  On the other hand, since a stasis field cannot enclose another,
what happens when the hole in the spaceship-shaped object gets
smaller and smaller?  I think the differential equations describing
the field must do something really grody at the cusp...

Berry Kercheval
berry@s1-c.arpa
mordor!berry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 09:40:40 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Teleportation and lost socks
From: "Ira_Newman.ESCP8"@Xerox.COM

Does anyone happen to remember the name of a short story printed in
Analog or Azimov several years ago that explains the invention of
teleportation by discovering why one sock of a pair gets lost in a
washing machine.

Ira Newman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Dec 86 1027-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #397
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 397

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Niven (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 18:14:51 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

Why not use the time speed-up field from one of the Gil the ARM
stories inside the statis field?

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 02:56:55 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes:
>> invented one kind of bolonium (GP hulls) for "There Is A Tide"
>"Neutron Star" (there was a story titled "There Is A Tide", but
>it's not the one under discussion).

Quite correct.  For some reason I remembered that the collection was
_Neutron Star_ and thought the story had a different name.

>It seems to me that there would be severe problems with using
>stasis fields as a hull.  Remember that anything inside a stasis
>field is slowed down by at least several thousand times, which
>would be rather inconvenient for an entire spaceship to have on all
>the time.  You can't have just a hull in stasis and the inside of
>the ship in normal time because that would mean having two stasis
>field boundaries, on the inside and outside surfaces of the hull,
>and Niven clearly states that one stasis field cannot enclose
>another.  Besides a stasis field lets nothing pass thru (except
>gravitons, apparently-- see "The Borderland of Sol") so even if you
>could make a hull for your ship from a stasis field you couldn't
>see where you're going.  Remember, GP hulls are designed to let
>thru visible light.

Stasis fields are not necessarily spherical in Niven's books.  The
Sea Statue (_World of Ptaavs_) is a stasis field in the shape of a
Thrint spacesuit.  The variable sword (_Ringworld_ and, I believe,
elsewhere) is a wire sheathed in a stasis field, such that it is
arbitrarily stiff and will cut through things.  If one can sheath a
wire or a space suit in a stasis field, one can sheath a piece of
steel plate, thereby creating one panel of an indestructable
spaceship hull (presumably with the mounting holes already drilled
in :-).

It is possible that there are topological limitations (e.g., a
stasis field must form a simply connected surface with no holes in
it ... now what was that about mounting holes?) but topologically
there is no difference between standing next to a stasis box and
standing inside a "stasis-braced" hull, as long as there's at least
a small spot NOT covered by stasis field (presumably the viewport or
the airlock) so that the inner surface of the hull is not "enclosed"
(in a formal, topological sense) by the outer surface.

Referring again to the Sea Statue (which presumably had concave
surfaces) and the variable sword (which had a stasis field which
turned on and off without including the handle, the user, etc., and
which could strike other variable swords without failing) there's
nothing to prohibit building complex shapes, sheathing them in
stasis fields, then attaching them to each other (no prohibition on
one stasis field touching another), adding the viewports and other
non-stasis parts, and using it for a spaceship hull -- or even
forming a one-piece hull, leaving only enough room for the airlock
(separately "stasis-braced") and some 1 micron holes for the fiber
optic links between your exterior sensors, engines, etc. and the
internal controls (who says you can't see where you're going?)

You can, of course, invoke some other limitation, such as an
arbitrary definition of "enclosed" (Stasis field A is too big to get
out thru the hole in stasis field B?  You could still make the
interlocking-plate hull.  Besides, how would field A know?).  Maybe
hyperspace engines only work when they can "see" almost all
directions, or otherwise object to too much stasis field nearby.
Perhaps stasis fields and hyperdrives are completely incompatible,
although a) you could still switch your stasis-bracing on and off,
and b) there's no suggestion in the books that, e.g, slaver stasis
boxes cannot be brought unopened from star to star (I don't have
"The Soft Weapon" handy, but don't they consider taking the box to
the authorities unopened?  Surely not at sublight speeds :-))

>  What you really need for a spaceship hull is one of Doc Smith's
>"zones of force" and a full 5th-order projector so you can look out
>thru it :-) (You think Niven's bad about implausible substances,
>look at the Skylark series.)

Too true.  At least Niven DOES think about these things, usually
quite extensively (see "Theory and Practice of Teleportation" for
example, although he has the usual thermodynamic fallacy that things
get colder if you teleport them uphill (which would make a dandy
perpetual motion machine...)).  All too many authors don't.

Jordin Kare
jtk@mordor.UUCP
jtk@s1-C.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 02:51:41 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld)

ucbvax!brahms!gsmith (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>   Since "Ringworld" is a good example of the "hard" sf genre, it
>might be instructive to take a look at the various impossible and
>illogical things which we find in it.  The ship has a GP hull,
>which means it is made out of Very Hard Stuff #1. They find a
>Ringworld made out of Very Hard Stuff #2. As if two completely
>different kinds of VHS were not enough, they could have simply used
>the "stasis field" in either case--and why didn't they?

   Note, each instance of a very hard stuff (I'm a die-hard Beta
fanatic, I refuse to use initials like VHS!  :-)) the stuff was
discovered by a different race. Puppeteers discovered the technology
behind the GP hull, scrith was developed by Protectors, and the
Stasis Field was independantly discovered by humanity, though we
know that the Slavers had it(though it is very doubtful that they
discovered it themselves). So the idea of there being different
types of stuff isn't quite as bad as it seems. We have NO evidence
at all that Protectors have anything like the Stasis field, else you
could be sure that they would have used it to reinforce the
structure of the Ringworld (they wouldn't have based it on it, they
wanted something that would conduct heat!) But they could have used
a Stasis grid to reinforce it to the point where a meteor like the
one that caused the Fist of God mountain couldn't have gotten
through.
   Also note that 'Lying Bastard', the ship they flew to Ringworld
in, was equipped with a Stasis field for emergencies. So although it
used a GP hull, it also used the Stasis Field.

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes:
> I don't see anything wrong with 2 kinds of VHS; for all we know,
> they may have been different forms of the same basic stuff.

The book seems to make it clear that the GP hull and scrith are two
VERY different things. GP hulls reflect everything but visible light
and gravity; scrith was a superconductor (at least for heat,
remember the flashlight laser beam didn't even heat it), but it did
stop 40% neutrinos, and that stumped EVERYBODY. Ergo, different
stuff.

chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>You can enclose things in the stasis field and thus protect them,
>but by definition time comes nearly to a halt for all things inside
>the stasis field -- sometimes useful but not always what you want.
>And you can't make a wall all the way around your hull out of
>stasis fields by having an inner field that negates the
>time-stopping effect of the outer one because, as explained in
><World of Ptavvs>, some fundamental law of physics (as presented by
>the book) makes it impossible to have one stasis field inside
>another.

   First, not all stasis fields are equal. As you noted, in world of
Ptavvs we have an example of humanity's first working stasis field.
The scientist who is researching it says that it slows down time a
lot (Sorry, I don't remember the exact ratio), but that his doesn't
stop time. He does say (correctly) that perhaps the Thrint's field
does, and of course all the fields we see later do stop time
completely. But they don't have to. But this is a trivial point. You
COULD build a ship with a MOSTLY stasis field hull, simply by
enclosing a non-conductive material inside a conducting shell,
something like:

      cccccccccccccccc
     cnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnc
    cncccccccccccccccc
   cnc                v    v is a viewport/hatch
    cnc               c
     cncccccccccccccccnc
     cnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnc
      ccccccccccccccc       where c is conductive and n isn't

Sorry about the crude artwork, I hope you get the idea. Of course
you still have a weakspot, but the rest of your ship is perfectly
safe. Of course, you still have the problem of leaving openings for
sensors and drives...  But it could be done. If you really wanted
to.

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes:
> I agree with your parenthetical comment, but evolution is hotly
> contested even now, and is not perfectly understood, and is a
> THEORY. I don't think you can call the Protectors a major error.
> There's no illogical contradiction, a reasonable explanation is
> that the protector world is like ours, and when humans arrived
> here (with protectors), we eliminated all competition, and the
> primates already here never developed into "native" humans. The
> protectors then died out, because their staple food won't grow
> here.

   Particularly since the evidence that Protectors built Ringworld
didn't come to light until Ringworld Engineers came out. The
arguement against evolution is spurious and not well thought out,
but the answering argument below has problems of its own.

chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>I have news for you.  It is now essentially proven that humans
>evolved from lower primates which in turn evolved from lower forms
>of life, by the science of Molecular Biology.  Examination of DNA
>sequence homology, among other things, allows one to distinguish
>between convergent evolution and divergent evolution -- in the
>latter case you get much more homology than in the former, since
>evolution consists mainly of modification of what's already there.
>For example, if we hadn't evolved from something close to
>chimpanzees, we wouldn't have ~98% DNA sequence homology to them --
>for this to happen on another world by convergent evolution would
>be exceedingly improbable.  And we have lesser but still impressive
>DNA sequence homologies to other, more distantly-related organisms.

   Oh really?? I know a few Molecular Biologist who would be
interested to hear that. While DNA comparison is exciting, it isn't
the panacia you seem to think it is, and has its challengers. But
even granting its validity does not solve our problems. You see
there was this Slaver empire about a billion years ago. We know
(from <World of Patvvs>) that Earth was once a slaver food planet.
And we also know that Slavers controlled most if not all of the
galaxy. It is possible, you can even say likely, that they
introduced a certain microbial heritage to a large number of
habitable planets through out the galaxy, from which both humans and
Protectors could have emerged.  And if breeder stage Protectors DID
evolve into our hominid branch, they could have diverged into both
humans and chimpanzees. The other DNA similarities that we share
with the rest of the planet could come from a more distant source,
the Slavers, with a reinforcement by the Protectors.  That was a
slow boat that the protectors arrived on, they brought a working
ecology with them. They would likely introduce a number of thier own
species to the Earth along with themselves. So the DNA record is a
lot more muddled than it could be to make it usable.
   And who says that it NEEDS to be that direct a connection! It's a
fun (and good) book. It has other more obvious flaws, no one has
mentioned the really BIG ones. But then you have to think a little
to see 'em.
   And NONE of this answers my original question. I've seen one
posting about a problem with rings that I still need to check out.
Other than this it's all been fluff.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 07:13:57 GMT
From: hutch@volkstation.gwd.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: If you're going to argue stories, at least get your facts
Subject: right!

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>The point is that the puppeteers wouldn't be able to improve on the
>result of natural selection for luck without direct genetic surgery
>or somesuch.  The technique of the Birthright Lottery wouldn't have
>any effect; anything selected for by that would have been selected
>for long ago by the cavemen who managed to avoid the leopard...

Ever breed animals to enhance a pre-existing trait?  It works in
significantly less time than evolutionary processes do.  You end up
with extremely inbred animals with exactly the traits you were
selecting for.  The lottery was not the only method of
breeding-coercion used.

Furthermore, since the idea of "luck" destroys linear causality, you
have to deal with the fact which Louis Wu used to drive the Hindmost
(or was it Nessus?) catatonic for a while: the puppeteers were only
the tools of the incredible LUCK of the n-th generation result of
the breeding program.  They exist because it would be tremendously
UNLUCKY for them not to exist.

Evolution is a probabilistic process.  We're talking here about a
trait that feeds back on that probability.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 86 17:33:25 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: breeding for "luck"

   GWS states that luck is sufficiently obvious a survival trait
that we should have it already.
   Perhaps we do---at some unnoticeably low level (or some level
sufficiently even that it's not readily observable). This is true of
most survival traits, since without a reasonable assortment of them
a species doesn't survive at all.  If you wish to develop one
particular trait in a plant or animal species, you have to breed for
it selectively, which is precisely what the birthright lotteries
did.
   Niven's biology is often questionable (a local fan did a
wonderful demolition of the notion of non-sentient Kzinti females,
plus some branches on how it could happen from a plague rather than
evolution), but breeding for luck seems plausible.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 15:27:47 GMT
From: druhi!bryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities

allbery@ncoast.UUCP writes:
> Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth.
> Room-temperature super- conductors are barely plausible; but
> cloth???  Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would
> be too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth,
> one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver
> sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers.

Sorry, but it was superconducting *wire* that they used in this
case, although the floating platform thingee was wrapped in
superconducting cloth.  That wire wouldn't have to be any stronger
than a kite-string, really; the platform was set to hover at some
altitude so the string was only to keep it from drifting away on the
wind.  What's wrong with the idea of making superconducting material
in wires and then weaving the wires into cloth, anyway?

John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems
12110 N. Pecos, #8C350
Denver, CO  80234
USENET:  ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
PHONE:   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 86 0758-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #398
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 398

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams (7 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 10:27:29 EST
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com>
Subject: Douglas Adams and biscuits
Cc: rms.g.jon%oz@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In SFL 11:387, Jon Drukman writes
>One final note: the story that Arthur tells Fenchurch in _So
>Long..._ about the biscuits (he's eating someone else's...) was
>told to me (and several hundred others) at an MIT lecture a few
>years back by Adams himself - BEFORE the book was written.  It
>really happened to him in real life!

    Unfortunately, the "Packet of Biscuits" story is an urban
legend.  Jan Harold Brunvand reports it in "The Choking Doberman"
[pp. 191-193 in the W.W.Norton paperback edition].  He cites "a
summary of three printed versions from British mass media sources of
1972-74 as given by A. W. Smith in _Folklore_ (Summer, 1975)."
There is also an Irish version, as well as one reported by English
folklorist Venetia Newall in 1980 as being common around
Wolverhampton "for several years".  In all versions reported by
Brunvand, the other traveller is an immigrant and/or member of a
racial minority (e.g. Pakistani/West Indian/African/unspecified
black).
    In any case, unless there's evidence that Douglas Adams has been
telling this story since before 1972, it appears that he's simply
taken the unusual step of attributing an urban legend to his own
experience rather than to the usual "friend-of-a-friend".

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 16:38:21 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams and biscuits

keesan@cci.bbn.com writes:
>    In any case, unless there's evidence that Douglas Adams has
>been telling this story since before 1972, it appears that he's
>simply taken the unusual step of attributing an urban legend to his
>own experience rather than to the usual "friend-of-a-friend".

Just because something is an ``urban myth'' doesn't mean that it
doesn't happen to somebody.  For instance -- the ``poodle in the
microwave'' story is an urban myth that dates back to before 1972.
But that was about the year when my aunt, a veterinary surgeon, got
to see a real cooked kitten.

We all sat and wondered about it for a while.  Was the elderly
gentleman really so stupid that he comitted this mistake?  Did he
m-wave his kitten to see what would happen?  Did he want to
duplicate the myth he had already heard?  Did his kitten die of heat
prostration due to being left in an over-hot car, and he wanted to
hide what he thought was his negligence?  Was he taking strange
drugs that night?

We never found out.  And my aunt has never seen another cooked
kitten.  But at a big veterinarian conference, she was once able to
find a man who has seen one in his practice as well.  And he is
still wondering, too.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 22:15:25 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

>How popular is Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
>
>What does everyone who knows about it, think about it?

Let me note right off that I am familiar only with the books, not
any of the TV or radio versions.  I found the first book to be
incredibly overdone satire.  Each event was obvious, inevitable, and
presented so as to hit the reader over the head with the *point*.

On the other hand, I found the sequels quite good.  Adams lightens
up, just has fun with the reader.  The latest,
_So_Long_and_Thanks_for_all_the_Fish, seems to me to be backsliding
a bit, but it is still pretty good.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 86 14:21:42 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: HHG criticism? and dates

>From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
>bph_cwjb@jhunix.UUCP (William J. Bogstad) writes:
>>   I have read 2 or 3 of the books in the Hitchhiker's Guide
>>series and I really can't understand why people get excited about
>>them.  Sure, some of the ideas are cute, but that really isn't
>>enough for me to give something a rave review.  There are many
>>other books I would reccomend first.

Recommend for what? As SF, probably not---but Adams isn't an SF
writer.  I wouldn't recommend this in the same breath as Wilhelm, or
the Pleistocene Saga, or some early Heinlein, or some Anderson or
Cherryh (that should be broad enough to get everybody questioning
\my/ taste); I'd be hesitant about recommending it to anyone I don't
know because senses of humor cause endless arguments.

>Yes, let's not go overboard. The hitchhiker's books have some great
>lines, but like most cult things are not very good when analyzed
>critically.

   Just what are you trying to analyze critically?
   HHG is English \humor/ (humour?), in the direct line that runs
from W. S.  Gilbert through the Goon Shows to Monty Python (stopping
by BEDAZZLED and THE BED-SITTING ROOM, both of which are excellent
]fantasy[). The fact that there is a cult around HHG in this country
is deplorable. Analogies to BUCKAROO BANZAI are feeble at best, if
only because BB was a sendup of everything from the mediocre to the
truly dreadful, where HHG is original (albeit frequently satirical,
e.g. the shoe section comes from Adams' personal frustration at
being unable to find a wearable pair of shoes in a part of London
that was riddled with shoe shops).
   Humour (as opposed to, say, Benny Hill) is usually witty as well
as directly funny, where American humor tends to go for the cheap
shots. Accordingly, many people brought up strictly on humor tend
not to appreciate humour. I won't argue with such types any more
than I argue with Wolfe fans (although I'd point out to any Wolfe
fans horrified at this analogy that there are interesting
similarities: both depend on a fountain of ideas and a somewhat
cockeyed view of the world. The difference perhaps is that Wolfe is
deliberately oblique as a way of compressing more into a book, while
humour is oblique because the world seen straight-on is so
appalling.)

>       Realistically, the books are very stupid. You can tell that
>they are very stupid because it is impossible to find anything good
>about them when you are trying to explain to a friend what is so
>great about them.

   See above arguments concerning taste. Also note that any joke can
be told in a way that makes it look stupid.
   On the other hand, don't you know some local best-seller
equivalent to WHERE GOD WENT WRONG, SOME MORE OF GOD'S GREATEST
MISTAKES, and WHO IS THIS 'GOD' PERSON ANYWAY? Would you be
interested in 53 MORE THINGS TO DO IN ZERO-GRAVITY?  Do you want a
finite improbability generator to break the ice at parties (or do
you think that's a good way to get yourself uninvited from parties)?
Haven't you wished that some of those manuals on your desk said
"Don't Panic" on the cover (or would that just make you more likely
to panic)?
   All of these seem obvious---once somebody has thought of them.
It's arguable that the outpouring of ideas in HHG is just as
sense-of-wondrous as any universe-spanning adventure, the difference
being that HHG is not about the ultimate adventurers but about the
everyday people.

A note on dates: the book of original radio scripts states that the
first series of 6 episodes began airing on 8 March 1978; the 7th
episode was first aired on 24 December 1978; and the last 5 episodes
were scheduled to run on successive nights starting 21 January 1980.
The set of twelve was run in Boston twice in a row on successive
Mondays, starting in late March 1981.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 21:08:23 GMT
From: udenva!showard@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steve "Blore" Howard)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

Hugh_W_Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes:
>As far as I can tell, the mice commissioned the Magratheans to
>recreate Earth MkII from the original plans.  (Magrathea was 'woken
>up' to do this as a special job - they had mothballed themselves on
>an index-linked basis "Until the galaxy is once again rich enough
>to afford our services").  Slartibartfast explains all this (how
>MkI was destroyed by the Vogons shortly before completion of the
>Great Hack (sorry, Program), "I do the fjords, you know, the
>crinkly bits round the edges.  I think they give such a baroque
>feel to a continent" etc).

  Except that on the Earth Mark II they gave him Africa to do.  He
still wanted to use fjords, but they didn't think they were
equatorial enough.

>And where does the phrase "Dent, as in the Late Dent Arthur Dent"
>come from?  ("It's a kind of threat.  I don't use them much myself,
>but I'm told they can be very effective").

 When Arthur introduces himself to Slartibartfast he says "Dent.
Arthur Dent."  Slartibartfast from then on calls him "Dent Arthur
Dent."  Slartibartfast tells him to hurry or he'll be late.  Arthur
asks late for what?  Sbf replies "Late, as in the late Arthur Dent."

Steve Howard
{hplabs, seismo}!hao!udenva!showard
{boulder, cires, ucbvax!nbires, cisden}!udenva!showard

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 02:40:54 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: HHGttG:  why is it great?

6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr) writes:
>Realistically, the books are very stupid. You can tell that they
>are very stupid because it is impossible to find anything good
>about them when you are trying to explain to a friend what is so
>great about them.

(Sigh.)  I can tell you EXACTLY why they are so popular: they are
the best SPOOF on the whole S-F genre ever written.  (I have yet to
experience the radio series; if anyone knows where in Cleveland one
can get a recording of it, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!)  As such, they
have no reason to be consistent, intelligent, etc.  Also, as such,
they aren't what you give someone to introduce them to science
fiction.  (Do you introduce someone to the world of J.  R. R.
Tolkien by giving them a copy of the National Lampoon's BORED OF THE
RINGS?  For that matter, do you expect *that* to be ``great
literature''?)

Don't insist on evaluating every book by the SAME criteria.  HHGttG
wasn't written to be great literature; you're wasting your time if
you're trying to justify it according to those rules.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc.
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
+1 216 155 1080
HOME:   6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210
CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case
ARPA: via relay.CS.NET
UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon}

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 05:25:41 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!tra4@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jonathan H. Traum)
Subject: Re: inexial discontinuity

From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
>As for when Zaphod got his third arm and second head the third arm
>is explained early in the first book of the trilogy. When Zaphod
>was traveling to the island in the hover-bubble it was said "and
>his third arm which he had had recently fitted under his second
>arm" so he did not get the third arm until after his visit to
>Earth. As for the second head in the first chapter of the second
>book Zaphod had to contact his grandfather for help, his
>grandfather was described as having two heads.

great grandfather

>So I guess the explanation of the birdcage on his shoulder is a
>good one.

Ahh, but don't forget that his great grandfather is Zaphod
Beeblebrox IV (that accident with a contraceptive and a time
machine, remember?), so the reason that Zaphod's great grandfather
has two heads could be because Zaphod had the second head added (and
perhaps the corresponding genetic surgery as well!)

By the way, I pity those of you who have never heard the radio
version (the BEST version! my opinion only, etc., etc.) and
therefore don't know who the Haguenenons (sp?) are, or how the Shoe
Event Horizon works!!

Jonathan Traum
tra4@sphinx.uchicago.bitnet
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!tra4

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 23:24:17 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: If you're going to argue stories, at least get your facts
Subject: right!

>The point is that the puppeteers wouldn't be able to improve on the
>result of natural selection for luck without direct genetic surgery
>or somesuch.  The technique of the Birthright Lottery wouldn't have
>any effect; anything selected for by that would have been selected
>for long ago by the cavemen who managed to avoid the leopard...

So maybe it has been, and humans are already very, very lucky.  The
Birthrite Lotteries just provide a convenient handle for recognising
exceptionallly lucky humans.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura
toad@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 16:35:19 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities

***SPOILERS!!!*** (Nothing most of you ain't heard before, 'tho,...)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth.
>Room-temperature superconductors are barely plausible; but
>cloth???  Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would be
>too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth, one
>end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver sunflowers, to
>``de-fang'' said sunflowers.

Waitaminit.  Wasn't that a molecule-chain they used, as in Ye Olde
Sinclair Molecule Chain--the strongest (at least, as of Gil
Hamilton's time) piece of thread known to man--not a superconductor?
As I remember it, the 'chain was what held the night-making plates
together. (For a while.)

>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down
>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in
>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip
>plan to take over the galaxy.  (They would know the truth about the
>Core explosion.)  As a result, they may well be only half-true...

If you mean "half-true" as "may not exist", I can tell you they *do*
exist.  (Just ask Jack Brannan (sp?).) If you mean "may not be our
ancestors",...  well, there's a lot of people fighting for that
position: the Protectors, the Ptaavs (or Tnuctipin, whichever), etc.
Kinda makes you wonder why they're all falling over each other to
claim us as their decendants,...;-)

"Down in flames" they almost certainly are,because of the
aforementioned Core reaction (if you don't count the inhabitants of
the Ringworld or Earth).

(BTW, does anyone know more about this "tnuctip plan" than I do?  I
wasn't even sure these guys were still around,...)

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 04:41:28 GMT
From: ccjcl@bu-cs.BU.EDU (John C. Lotz)
Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities

kaufman@nike.uucp (Bill Kaufman) writes:
> ***SPOILERS!!!*** (Nothing most of you ain't heard before, 'tho,...)
>>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth.
>>Room-temperature superconductors are barely plausible; but
>>cloth???  Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would
>>be too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth,
>>one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver
>>sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers.
> Waitaminit.  Wasn't that a molecule-chain they used, as in Ye Olde
> Sinclair Molecule Chain--the strongest (at least, as of Gil
> Hamilton's time) piece of thread known to man--not a
> superconuctor?  As I remember it, the 'chain was what held the
> night-making plates together. (For a while.)

 I looked this up. They used both superconductor wire, and molecule
chain.  The superconductor was needed to pass the heat. Louis Wu
used the molecule chain to hold the plate once it reached altitude
(he wasn't sure how strong the superconductor wire was).

jcl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Dec 86 0811-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #399
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 86 0811-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #399
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 399

Today's Topics:

                Books - Sentient Computers (7 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Time Travel (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 86 04:39:38 GMT
From: ut-ngp!gknight@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Gary Knight)
Subject: Terminate submissions to sentient computer novel list!

I agree!  I've got enough stuff to keep me busy through the
holidays!  Hold off on further submissions until I get the first
draft worked up and posted to the net . . . then we can have an
amendment process.  Okay?  Thanks,

Gary Knight
3604 Pinnacle Road, Austin, TX  78746  (512/328-2480).
Biopsychology Program, Univ. of Texas at Austin.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 02:44:55 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computers

With respect to Ariel:

On a -4 to +4 scale:  -4

The only AI/sentient computer book I remember reading that was worse
than this was The Adolesence of P-1 which was technically just as
bad and had characters so stupid it made me want to cry.  However,
P-1 was written a long time ago when the Frankenstein method of
generating sentient computers (lightning, massive influx of data, or
some other strange improbable event) was accepted.  Ariel has no
such excuse.

Mark it down as yet another book trying to cash in on computers and
move on.

If you want a reasonable look at how a sentient computer might be
created and evolve, read The Two Faces of Tomorrow by James P.
Hogan.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 86 14:14:50 PST
From: crash!mhughes@pnet01 (Mari Hughes)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #388/Sentient Computers

Also long as we are listing books about sentient computers, don't
forget "When Harlie Was One" about the computer Harlie.  I
particularly like the ending where ***SPOILER*** Harlie convinces
his makers to make this new computer that will answer all their
questions, and when they are too far committed to it to turn back,
it is revealed that the computer is actually only useful to Harlie
because by the time the answer is calculated, the questioner would
be dead! (I guess they didn't have Cray's then). ***END SPOILER***

Of course, the ending does set things up for a sequel.  Does anyone
know if there was one?  The book was written by David Gerrold and
published by Ballantine Books.  (David Gerrold also wrote some Star
Trek books including The Trouble with Tribbles and The World of Star
Trek).  Also, some of you might have run into this book in its short
story forms in Galaxy (Oracle for a White Rabbit, The GOD Machine
and The Trouble with G.O.D.)

If there IS a sequel, I would love to get my hands on it!

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 20:31:49 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

jpm@lanl.ARPA (Pat McGee) writes:
> Kim DeVaughn mentioned that "The Mote in Gods Eye" had a sentient
> computer.  This does not match my memory.  All I remember was that
> everyone had pocked computers that could access lots of
> information (complete library services, plus anything the user had
> said while 'recording')

Pat is absolutely correct, as are several others who sent me email
pointing out the error of my ways ... seems I got the "Moties"
mixed-up with Hogan's "Ganymeans" somewhere along the line.

In atonement for this transgression, I offer another somewhat
obscure "sentient computer novel":

   Vulcan's Hammer  by  Philip K. Dick

kim
UUCP:  {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb}!amdahl!kim
DDD:   408-746-8462
USPS:  Amdahl Corp. M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
CIS:   76535,25

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 20:43:52 GMT
From: osu-cgrg!brian@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brian Guenter)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress
Subject: report)

Michaelmas by Algis Budrys

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 86  7:36:59 EST
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc2.bbn.com>
Subject: Sentient computer short-short story

From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>a great many of the best sentient computer stories were of the
>short variety.  Including the first and most classic short-short
>where they fired up the first sentient computer and asked it "Is
>there a God?" and the computer said, "There is now!"  It was a one
>page story that I read LONG ago.

<Bibliography isn't my business>, and my memory tends to leak; while
I can't tell you the name of the book I saw it in (it was high
school or earlier) I am quite sure it was written by Frederic Brown
(of "Arena" and _Rogue_in_Space_ fame).  A book of his short stories
had a two page short short between each normal length short story
and this was one of them (at the ribbon cutting and powering up
ceremony for the latest and greatest don't-this-beat-all computer,
they ask the question "Is there a God?".  As a bolt of lightning
fuses the power switch, a great voice replies . . .).

JBL
UUCP:  {world}!bbnccv!levin or {world}!bbncca!levin
ARPA:  levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 86 7:55:11 EST
From: Victor The Mad Hacker Cericole <vcerico@apg-5>
Subject: Sentient computer novels.

Although the subject was not about the computer, Saberhagen's
"Empire of (in?) the East" (or something to that effect).  In the
novel the great power that opposes the Evil Empire turns out to be a
sentient computer.  Got to read it again, I have forgotten to much
of the story line to continue.

Victor Cericole
vcerico@apg-5.arpa
vcerico@brl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 86 04:33:18 GMT
From: frog!sc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert)
Subject: Time-Traveller's Toolkit

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on your
>person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D.  You
>would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect, and
>in addition you would get together a little kit of things you would
>not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with you
>always.  What I want to know is, what would that kit contain?

At least four spare pairs of eyeglasses (plastic lenses, metal
frames), a Merck manual, a space blanket, some diaphragms and
condoms, a _large_ bottle of A-200, a copy of _The Book of the Law_
(really curious about what introducing _that_ earlier on would do to
social evolution....), an assortment of antibiotics, my swiss army
knife, a _good_ knife, a hand lens, enough vitamins to cushion my
fall from megadoser to malnourished medieval (a two-weeks supply in
decreasing dosages ought to do it), and a paperback copy of _The Way
Things Work_.  If there's still room in the daypack, some aspirin,
ether, pocket calculator and spare batteries (more for magick than
daily use....), and, since I _cannot_ get to sleep without something
to read, a copy of _Dhalgren_ (it worked for six months of
hitchhiking without boring me, it would keep me sane till I learned
the local writing or adapted.) Maybe a Bic lighter, just till I
retrained myself at firebuilding?  If it fits....  Wouldn't need it
long, but if I got yanked out of the shower, I might want it _bad_.

All this protected in ziplocs and bundled with rubber bands, since I
would miss both....

Fastening this to my body at all times, as much gold chain as I'm
willing to carry -- after all, it's better to be rich than poor, and
if the sudden move came while I was showering, I'd really want the
bag to come along, but be dry.  And if I ended up in the colder
parts of the world, I'd want that space blanket to be on top!

I thought about a black powder pistol, Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics, lots of other things, but I'm trying to keep the weight
down to not _much_ worse than my current purse.

Besides getting shots for every disease I could think of, I'd get
caught up on dental work, have an appendectomy, and compile a list
(preferably world-wide) for eclipses.

Great question, Andre, looking forward to the other answers....

Stella Calvert
Guest Account:  {cybvax0|decvax}!frog!sc
HASA Affiliation: S Division

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 86 15:16:58 GMT
From: aicchi!dbb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Burch)
Subject: Time travel survival kit.

Well... I think that the following would be a good survival kit no
matter where you are;

1. A copy of "Outdoor Survival Skills" by Tom Olsen.  (I hope I got
   the title correct) This book begins with the premise that you
   have nothing but the clothes on your body, and must survive for
   an indefinite period of time.

2. A burning glass.  Much easier than a fire bow. I know from
   experience!

3. A bowie knife.  Thick enough blade to survive years of rough
   honing.

4. A stainless steel canteen.  Until you kill something and tan the
   hide, you will need to be able to carry some water.  Also, a
   stainless canteen can be used to boil water.

Some other random thoughts.  In lieu of glasses, you can take a thin
tissue of any opaque material (charred rodent hide will do) and make
a lone-ranger type mask.  Put a few pinholes in it, and you will be
able to see much better at least in bright light due to the pinhole
camera effect.  Try this with some aluminum foil if you don't
believe me!  If I were in a place where I did not understand the
culture, I would get as far away from civilization as I could.
People tend to be xenophobic, and I would not want to be the next
guest at a witch stoning...

David B. (Ben) Burch
Analysts International Corp.
Chicago Branch (ihnp4!aicchi!dbb)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 20:55:47 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Erich Rickheit)
Subject: Re: A new twist on the time travel question

boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (The Mad Tickle Monster) writes:
>cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
>>Suppose you suspected that at any moment you and everything on
>>your person might be catapulted into the past to sometime A.D.
>>You would get inoculated against all sorts of nasties, I suspect,
>>and in addition you would get together a little kit of things you
>>would not want to be without when you arrived and carry it with
>>you always.  What I want to know is, what would that kit contain?

Well, besides money/jewelry (preferably Au & Al) and a weapon, I
would drag along a microfiched/microfilmed (whichever is smaller)
copy of the Encyclopedia Brittannica and an appropriate reader. If I
can rig one, the reader should be usable with natural or
candlelight. There. Now I know: how to extract aluminum; how to make
a generator; how to build batteries; at least _some_ of local
history/customs (language is still a bitch)

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 86 02:55:52 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: TIME TRAVEL

   For a good example of what it might be like, read "The Anubis
Gates", by Tim Powers. In it an English Professor gets stranded in
19th Cen. London.  He survives, though it is as much by luck as
anything else. It is a good read anyway you look at it though.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 13:51:57 EST
From: Louis Steinberg <STEINBERG@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: time travel

In all this discussion of how an unprepared time traveler could
survive and/or make a fortune in the past, there's one point people
seem to largely miss.  Until quite recently in historical terms,
your opportunities in life depended much more strongly on your
social rank and connections than they do for us today.  Even if you
did have the technological knowledge to make a big advance, it would
be quite possible that you would not be given the opportunity to put
it into practice except in the role of advisor to some powerful
personage (guild master, local noble, etc.).  You would get few of
the profits, have no control, and be in danger of being more or less
dumped if your patron thought that you were no longer needed.  You
would probably find patrons much less excited by possible
technological advances than you would expect, and you would find
great reluctance of people to get involved in any way with a
"stranger", i.e. someone they haven't grown up with and whose family
they don't know.  There would be some avenues open (e.g. the
Church), but not nearly the freedom we would tend to expect.

Lou Steinberg
uucp: {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steinber
arpa:   STEINBERG@RUTGERS.EDU.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 02:13:16 GMT
From: frog!sc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert)
Subject: Changing History

PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA writes:
>Now you have a time machine and a nice theory of time that states
>you can go back, change things, and return to either future you
>want (or visit both to see the differences).  Now you get to
>prepare and take a small stock of supplies with you.  What would
>you change?

Firstly, I've always been curious about what would have happened if
Alexander the Great had lived -- so, besides Craig Werner, I'd take
whatever _he_ wanted.

Appearing on the Road to Damascus and reprogramming Saul would also
be most amusing -- laser, bull-horn, and the _Book of the Law_
should be about right.  "Listen up, Saul -- killing xians has got to
stop!  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Might solve
a lot of problems that would otherwise persist for dreary thousands
of years.

Clearing out the library at Alexandria and replacing the works that
would be burnt the next day with fakes would be interesting
(wouldn't change history unless I could figure some way of
reinserting them -- like planting them in a cave I knew someone
would enter soon....)

>Me, I would like to go put the fear of God in the people in Salem.
>Let's see them burn witches when an angel (complete with wings,
>lights, horns, and a flying harness) drops down in front of the
>church and tells them not too.  Granted it's a bit dangerous, but
>it could be fun!

Ok, you're gonna get Salem (if the changes I make don't render it
unnecessary) so I won't bother.  But wear a kevlar suit and it
wouldn't be very dangerous....  (I'd be willing to come along and
cover you, if you like....)

And _somehow_ (I haven't done the research, so I'm not sure what the
best trick would be) I'd like to ensure that the anti-taxers won the
Whiskey Rebellion.

That might be enough right there.  But just for the hell of it,
let's grab Hitler, circumcise him, Nair his lip, and drop him in his
own camps, before we change history so they don't happen.  "But I'm
the Fuehrer..." Right, Jew-Boy, go take a shower....

>Or how about arriving at Custer's last stand and trying to convince
>and or fool him or the Indians into going the wrong way.  Would
>that make any difference?

Yes -- but I'd change things in the other direction.  Custer and Co.
getting killed doesn't bother me the least little bit!

>I would like to have stowed away on one of the later Apollo
>missions.

_I'd_ scuttle off to Tranquillity Base and implement my husband's
suggestion.  Erase Nixon's name from the plaque, and substitute
[executive deleted].  Wouldn't _change_ a lot, but wouldn't it be
_fun_! (Now do you know why I love wjr?  Among other reasons....)

STella Calvert
Guest Account:  {cybvax0|decvax}!frog!sc
HASA Affiliation: S Division

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 86 08:55:15 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Time Travel

In Star Trek IV, Captain Kirk sells the glasses that Doctor McCoy
gave him in Wrath of Khan to an antiques dealer. Spock says,
"Weren't those a present from Doctor McCoy?" Kirk says, "And they
will be again, that's the beauty of the thing!" Also, later, Scotty
gives a formula to the person who history says invented it. The
problem is, where did the formula and glasses come from?  They're
stuck in an infinite loop!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 86 0825-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #400
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 400

Today's Topics:

             Books - Feist & Van Vogt,
             Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (2 msgs),
             Television - Ian Marter (2 msgs) & Jon Pertwee &
                     Tripods,
             Miscellaneous - Star Trek Stamp & SF Drinks (2 msgs) &
                     Advising the Military (2 msgs) &
                     Misreading Literature & A Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 01 Dec 1986 16:57 CDT
From: Steve Besalke  <CUSLB%IECMICC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Riftwar.......

Has anyone been reading the Riftwar Saga by Raymond E. Feist???? The
titles of the books are as follows:

   Magician:  Apprentice
   Magician:  Master
   Silverthorn
   A Darkness at Sethanon - for sale January 15, 1987 (tenative)

Please warn if you post any spoilers about Silverthorn for I have
just started reading it.  Also, mentioned earlier were the
Chronicles of Amber.  Where can I find them??

Steve Besalke

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1986  00:47 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Earth's one immortal man

   He is Robert Hedrock, at least in "The Weapon Makers".  His other
names are mostly not given, although you do learn some interesting
things in TWM...including his origin, the origin of the Empire and
other fun stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 86 08:18:25 EST
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV

   I was one of the millions who saw it this weekend. The plot is as
stated in previous discussions, so I won't go into it, but I will
say that IT IS WELL WORTH SEEING!! Even if you are not a fan of Star
Trek it is a most entertaining film with emphasis on the characters
(not just the leads either) and humor. The movie even makes its
statement about preserving endangered species very well without the
usual flags saying "author's message". The special effects were
excellant and not overdone. It is by far the most entertaining of
all the movies in the series.

Wes Miller

------------------------------

Date: 1 December 1986 07:43:46 CST
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Star Trek IV (minor spolier)

Pico review: EXCELLENT MOVIE!!! No space battles, but lots more
humor than in the previous Treks. Go see it!

Question (minor spoiler):
Why did the alien probe come to Earth in the first place?

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86  22:35:00 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: IAN MARTER DEAD

I learned on November 6 that another talented actor and writer of
Doctor Who has sadly passed away. Ian Marter, who played Harry
Sullivan and wrote the novelizations of ARK IN SPACE, ENEMY OF THE
WORLD, DOMINATORS, and several others, died on October 31. An
autopsy will be performed soon.  All our hearts and wishes go out to
his loved ones. We'll miss you, Ian.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 16:07:32 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Ian Marter

    In response to a previous posting asking about the death of Mr.
Ian Marter:
    According to Louise Jameson, speaking on November 16 at a
convention here in Philadelphia, Ian Marter died in London on
October 29th of a coronary.  She mentioned it, having been reminded
of the last time she had met with her associates from Dr Who -
namely, at his funeral.
    He was working on another Target novelization (of _The Rescue_),
which was very near completion, and which may be published anyway in
its present form.
    As a writer and actor, he will be missed.

John L WHITE@DREXELVM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86  22:37:16 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Jon Pertwee
Cc: tmplee@dockmaster.arpa

Also, Jon Pertwee was supposed to appear at a convention in
Wakefield, MA on Halloween but was unable to make it because he had
contracted hepatitis.  We all send our hopes to him for a speedy
recovery.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86  14:06:28 EST
From: drukman%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Jonathan S. Drukman)
Subject: Tripods & Dr. Who & Michael Grade

Michael Grade apparently axed Dr. Who for 18 months because he
disagreed with A) the sudden increase in nasty violence, and B)
Colin Baker's performance as The Doctor.

Personally, I think Colin is a great Doctor, but I did find the
rapid increase in violence in Season 22 pretty distressing - since
when does the Doctor go around blasting people?

Nutto@Umass says that the Tripods was "flawlessly acted" - not
quite!  And the second series is much better than the first, in all
respects, however I feel that the transition to television lost a
lot of important aspects that were present in the books, such as the
incredibly tortuous interior of the Tripod City - in the book, it
was a living hell and the author brought that across wonderfully.
Now, in the show, you've not only got life being easier, but you've
got a Disco/Bar for the slaves!!!! And they even called it The Pink
Parrot -- yuk!

On the budget side of things, Tripods was axed because Grade didn't
feel that the show should continue for a third year - but he changed
his mind about it TWICE.  Now it's definitely not coming back this
year, although producer Richard Bates is still lobbying for $$ to
finish the trilogy.  When Dr. Who was annnounced as coming back with
a half length season, rumors abounded that it would have the same
amount of money as it would for a full length season.  Of course,
this turned out to be false.  However, I have seen part of the new
season, and the effects are slightly above the pitiful norm.
Another rumor currently making the rounds is that the next producer
will be either David Maloney (of Blake's 7 fame) or Graham Williams
(again!)  and that the next season will be only 12 episodes.

jon drukman
BITNET: drukman@umass
ARPANET: rms.g.jon%oz@mit-mc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 86 9:10:04 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Star Trek stamp

> Trekkies petitioned the advisory committee to approve a stamp to
> mark the show's 25th anniversary in 1991.  "That's a new twist,
> but they get a double 'no,'" Mr. McDowell said.  "We don't do
> commercial enterprises and we don't do 25th anniversaries.  We do
> 100ths."

Interesting comment there. I wonder how this spokesman would explain
the commemorative T. S. Eliot stamp, recently unveiled here in St.
Louis with a public ceremony at the Missouri Historical Society, on
Eliot's *98th* birthday!

(I did call the Society about this, and they had no explanation for
the USPS doing it this year instead of waiting the two years to do
it on the 100th birthday...)

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 86 12:01 EST
From: GLAUBMAN%nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: SF drinks

An anecdotal list of personal favorites:

Lensman 2nd (Kimball) Kinnison and Port Admiral Hayes would knock
back a beaker of fayalin as a sort of 'apres zwilnik'.  As Wild Bill
Williams, Kinnison's cover required him to down prodigious
quantities of raw liquor (and some non-utilitarian drug, called I
believe 'bentham').  Doc Smith also had a high regard for Arcturan
wines & brandies.  I don't think anyone ever drank them, tho -- they
were mostly loaded into freighters and hijacked by minions of
Boskonia.

Retief of course relied heavily on that mainstay of diplomacy, the
'martini'.  He was fond of the two special wines of the agricultural
planet Bacchus (they came in 2 colors, black and amber maybe??).

Henry Kuttner's Gallegher ("Robots Have No Tails") created the first
sentient (artificial) beercan opener/singing companion.  Gallegher
was also notable as the inventor of the alphabetical pub crawl.
...'w' is for whiskey...'x', uh, 'x' is for xtra whiskey . (Note:
don't try this at home,or anywhere else,kids).

Mack Reynolds' main contribution was the *John Brown's Body*.  The
next morning, the victim of this dangerous concoction would lie
"molderin' in the grave."  Reynolds gave the recipe several times,
but I don't remember it, and I'm not sure he didn't change it from
book to book.

Does anyone remember this one? (a Reynolds or Laumer concoction,
maybe):

   1 liter Napoleon Brandy
   1 liter sweet champagne
   <various sickening sweet liqueurs>
   1 quart lime(?) sherbet
   whipped cream, with a cherry on top served in a punch bowl

The hero did not so much drink this as accidentally spill it on his
host.  For stickiness, pungency, and coldness it is unsurpassed.

My all-time favorite SF drink is from my all-time favorite SF novel,
Frederic Brown's "What Mad Universe."  This book also contains the
best spacedrive (sewing machine powered -- Harrison's Bloater Drive
is a close second).  The drink is called, I think, "moon juice", and
the milky-white liquid is a cross between absinthe and the milder
forms of thionite.  My advice to the known universe is to become 15
years old and read this book, or vice versa.  NOTE to the canonical
list of sentient computers thread: WMU , as befits any ATFSF novel,
has one of those too. His name is Mekky and he is a featureless
silver globe who communicates by telepathy.

All of the above authors are giants in our field; most of them are
dead now.  It seems oddly appropriate to end this overlong message
with a toast to them:

Cheers
David J. Glaubman
glaubman@northeastern.edu       (CSNet)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 86 01:25:31 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: More on E.E.S.'s drinks...

GLAUBMAN%nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu@RELAY.CS.NET...
>Lensman 2nd (Kimball) Kinnison and Port Admiral Hayes would knock
>back a beaker of fayalin as a sort of 'apres zwilnik'.  As Wild
>Bill Williams, Kinnison's cover required him to down prodigious
>quantities of raw liquor (and some non-utilitarian drug, called I
>believe 'bentham').  Doc Smith also had a high regard for Arcturan
>wines & brandies.  I don't think anyone ever drank them, tho --
>they were mostly loaded into freighters and hijacked by minions of
>Boskonia.

It's Haynes, not Hayes.  And the drug was bentlam.  ("benny",
"sleepy-happy", et cetera)

You forgot a few:

Laxlo
Aldebaranian bolega (similar to whiskey)

No, Boskonia never hijacked wines; remember when Kinnison QX'ed
Matthews' ship to Alsakan?  ``They'll hit it on the way out -- its
cargo right now is a lot more valuable to Boskonia than a load of
Alsakanite cigarettes would be.''  (Roughly what he said, from
memory.)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries, Inc
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060
+1 216 155 1080
HOME:   6615 Center St. #A1-105
        Mentor, OH 44060-4101
        +1 216 974 9210
CSNET: ncoast!allbery@Case
ARPA: via relay.CS.NET
UUCP: cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!{allbery,tdi2!brandon}

------------------------------

Date: Wed 19 Nov 86 18:40:21-CST
From: Larry Van Sickle <CS.VANSICKLE@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: sf writers DO advise military

The BOOKS AND ARTS section of The Economist, November 15, 1986,
contains a two page review of Robert Heinlein, Issac Asimov, and
Arthur C. Clarke.  The review doesn't contain anything new or
interesting, but an accompanying piece says:

   When Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle described an elite corps of
   sci-fi authors (Robert Heinlein among them) co-opted by the
   military to provide intelligence on an alien invasion in their
   novel "Footfall", some accused them of delusions of grandeur.
   This year, just such a group joined in a three day think-tank at
   Wright Patterson air base under the aegis of the American Air
   Force.  Their speculations on future warfare are classified
   information, of course, but a thorough reading of "Footfall"
   might provide a few clues.  This novel will no doubt become
   required reading for military strategists in the Kremlin.

Larry Van Sickle
cs.vansickle@r20.utexas.edu.#Internet
Computer Sciences Department
U of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 86 00:33:34 GMT
From: hscfvax!south@rutgers.rutgers.edu (790689@NDSK@SSneddon)
Subject: Re: sf writers DO advise military

I read an interesting little letter to the President, or the Joint
Chiefs of Staff, or somebody, which spoke of the _Thor_ space-based
anti-ground- force weapon.  It was in a strange little SF
magazine/book - "Destinies", perhaps?  I don't remember.  Basically,
it seems to be constructed of large bundles of very hard rods
(titanium?  steel?  again, don't remember...)  and a remote-control
reorientation/detonation device.  What happens is that computers
calculate the proper time and orientation for a Thor device to be
exploded, causing the steel rods to fall out of orbit and strike a
selected target.  This weapon should be devastatingly effective
against infantry, tanks, trucks, you name it, they'll punch lotsa
little glowing holes in it.

I *think* the falling rods would hit the ground at escape
velocity... am I correct in this?

Oh, yes, I believe the letter was written by Jerry Pournelle.

G. T. Samson
Addresses: gts@hscfvax.uucp
           gts@borax.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 86 13:57:56 -0200
From: Eyal mozes <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@violet.berkeley.edu>
Subject: the misreading of literature

There's an excellent article called "The misreading of literature",
by Michelle Marder Kamhi, in the last issue (vol. 3, no. 2) of
"Aristos - the Journal of Esthetics". The article deals with the
phenomenon of people misinterpreting and condemning novels by
pointing out of context to certain passages or expressions in them.
The point is illustrated by an analysis of "Huckleberry Finn" and
the common misinterpretations of it. The article also points out the
importance of understanding this phenomenon, in order to combat the
demands, heard so often nowadays, for banning certain books from
English classrooms and school libraries.  I think the recent debate,
in SF-Lovers, about Heinlein and the allegedly unsavory values and
views in his work, was full of examples of what the article
discusses.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:           ...!ihnp4!talcott!WISDOM!eyal

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 18:23:40 GMT
From: watnot!jdewinter@rutgers.rutgers.edu (the Doctor)
Subject: Time Travel and other phenomenon

Okay, this may be asking for trouble, but here it goes!

I would like to compile two different sets of lists which I would
post to the net.  First of all there would be a list about time and
time travel containing stories dealing with those two subjects.
Secondly, I would also compile a list on other science fiction
stories dealing with a variety of phenomenon.  These lists, once I
had finished editing and compiling them, would be posted on the net
so that everyone could read them and get a copy of them if needed.

If you have a story or stories that you would like to nominate for
the lists, please reply using the pathname below
(jdewinter@watnot.UUCP), to send me the stories you would like to
nominate.  Please have two separate sections, one for the
nominations for the time and time travel story list, and one for the
stories with other phenomenon.  For the second list, please specify
as much as possible the phenomenon (i.e. alternate universes, old
science fiction, man cast in alien world, etc.) as possible.  Please
include the author of the story as well as where the story can be
found if you yourself know where it can be found.

Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.

Jack De Winter
Resurrection College
Westmount Road
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
N2C 2C1    (519)-888-6971
UUCP: ihnp4!watmath!watnot!jdewinter

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 86 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #401
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 401

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Brust & Dick &
                     Finney & King (2 msgs) & Lee & 
                     Palmer & Steakley (2 msgs) &
                     Dying Main Characters (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 86 18:19:19 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Mad Tickle Monster)
Subject: Re: Story Query (plus another query!)

Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>Title and author sought for a short story that to the best of my
>recollection appeared in Astounding in the late 1950s or early
>1960s.  Epigraph was the folk song _Samuel Hall_ ("For my name is
>Samuel Hall ...  and I hate you one and all ...)  I think the topic
>was computer sabotage but I may have misremembered that (memory is
>the second thing to go with age.  The first is ...  ah ...  oh,
>never mind.)
>
>Any pointers out there?  Thanx,

The story was entitled (ahem) _Sam_Hall_ (:-); I saw it in the
collection _Machines_that_Think_, edited in part by Asimov.  Great
story; indeed about sabotage.  Highly recommended.  Another story
people have been mentioning on the net is also in this collection,
about the computer that, when turned on, is asked the question, "Is
there a god?", and replies, "THERE IS NOW."  (Bolt of lightning
fuses the on-off switch closed. . .).  Good collection, overall,
even though I dislike Asimov's "editing" usually.

Anybody know where I can find the (complete) lyrics to the song "Sam
Hall"??

Michael A. Justice
BITNet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET:  boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:  ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
      (boreas@bucsb.UUCP)
ARPA:  boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
AT&T:  home: 787-4189
       work1:353-2784
       work2:353-9063

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 09:29 EST
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Sam Hall
To: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA

I have been informed that the story with the epigraph " ...  oh my
name is Samuel Hall .." is "Sam Hall" by Poul Anderson and is indeed
about computer sabotage.  Now my question is: does anybody have the
publication date, and, more importantly, is this the first
hacker/penetration story?

Earl (Boebert @ MIT-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 06:29:16 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Deaths of main characters (YENDI)

> Is he doing Vlad's trip to Deathsgate Falls?  I'm *very*
> interested.

Yes and no.  TACKY...I mean, TECKLA does not cover this.  I am,
however, working on one called EASTER BUNNY, er, make that,
EASTERNER, which will deal with that.  I'm glad you're interested;
thanks.  It will be out, perhaps, in a bit more than a year.  I'll
be getting back to work on it as soon as I finish reading the one
hundred and thirty-fifth "new approach to time travel."

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 19:07:38 GMT
From: stan@hpksla.HP.COM (Stan Vierhaus)
Subject: Philip Dick

Does anyone know when and how Philip Dick died ??

Stan Vierhaus
uucp:  hpda!hpksla!stan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 19:23:11 GMT
From: rekant@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Debbi Rekant)
Subject: Re:Time Travel and other phenomenon !!!HELP!!!

There is an excellent book for your time travel list.  It is by Jack
Finney and is entitled "Time and Again".  It is about a governmental
experiment which causes one of the particpants to return to New York
City in February, 1882 (I think).  It covers his experiences and
feelings while there.  In addition, there are beautiful sketches
throughout the book of New York in the late 1800's.  Not only should
it be on your list, I strongly recommend you read it.  The ending
has a really nice twist.

Debbi Rekant
Rutgers University
P.O Box 879
Piscataway, NJ 08854
(201) 932-2456
UUCP   : topaz!elbereth!rekant
BITNET : 1005104@rutvm1
ARPANET: rekant@blue.rutgers.edu
SNAIL  : 66 Larry Court
         Dayton, NJ 08810
VOICE  : (201) 274-289

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 10:48:08 est
From: levine@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jonathan M. Levine)
To: donn@utah-cs.arpa
Subject: IT by Stephen King

Donn,

  I just finished IT a couple of weeks ago, and while I don't argue
the authenticity in the characters (King has always been best when
writing dialog, whether it's when people speak or think), I finished
the book with a couple of impressions.

  First, that King really needs a good editor...someone really needs
to say him, "Steve, this book is too long."  [c.f. the "new version"
of The Stand which is rumored to be in the works...it's the
original, unedited, 1.5x longer version that he had to edit before
he became such a sales draw].

  And second, I get the feeling that he did gobs of research for
this novel.  But I'd rather not become consciously aware that an
author has done research, rather just to feel like the story flows
better because of it.  The "final ritual" is just King showing off
his knowledge of non-Western creation myths.

  I also found the forgetting at the end disappointing... but I
guess we don't have to worry about a sequel.

  All in all, I liked King better before he became a "phenomenon".

Jonathan

P.S. Didn't you find just a bit pretentious the subtitle, "A Novel"?
I suppose that's for all the "Weekly World News" readers...(what did
I think it was, a history text?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 86 00:41:28 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
To: levine@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
Subject: Re:  IT by Stephen King

Let's take these points from back to front...

You thought it was 'just a bit pretentious' for the cover of IT to
have the words 'a novel' down in the corner...  My feeling is that
this is a common publisher's practice for first editions of
mainstream books that are expected to sell well.  I looked through
my last year's reading and all of the books which had just the words
'a novel' on the front were crossovers of some kind (for the
curious: ILLYWHACKER by Peter Carey, NIGHTS AT THE CIRCUS by Angela
Carter and GALAPAGOS by Kurt Vonnegut).  I wouldn't make very much
of it.

King as a 'phenomenon': I actually think that King hasn't changed a
lot since becoming a best-selling author.  I suppose that he's able
to sell books now that he might not have sold before on account of
their length or content, but I think he would have written them
anyway and in pretty much the same style.  To fold this in with your
first point about King needing a good editor, I think it's likely
that King's work would have been more edited if he hadn't become
such a selling force, but I'm not sure whether it would necessarily
have been better.  Yes, King needs a good editor, but unfortunately
they don't grow on trees; bad editing is (still) more common than
good, I think.  King has commented (in Charles Platt's DREAM MAKERS
II interview) that he needs editing and that editors can get
intimidated when they work with someone whose contract guarantees
millions in income for the company.  By the way, I agree about THE
STAND -- I thought that even the cut version was far too long and
unstructured for its story.  Many, many people will disagree with
us, I fear.  I liked IT much more than THE STAND.

About the 'gobs of research' which you felt were intrusive...  I
guess I didn't think that this stood out very much from the other
plot clutter in the novel.  I did think that some of this made for a
nice, dark, Lovecraftian feel; remember the rituals practiced by the
followers of Cthulhu?  Perhaps you'd prefer not to remember...

Hm, when I wrote the original review I was all prepared to conclude
with a critique about novels which bite off too much of their topic.
I cut it because the review was getting too long, but now I'm
interested again; maybe I'll write it up and send it in to sf-lovers
later.

I suppose someone who writes bloated reviews shouldn't complain
about bloated novels,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 00:21:15 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Tanth Lee story

I am trying to locate a story written by Tanth Lee called (I think)
"After the Guillotine". It related the after death experiences of
several people executed during the French Revolution.  I remember it
being in a magazine during the last 2 years but can't find it in my
collection.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 04:21:45 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: EMERGENCE

> trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>>How realistic do you think it would be for a prepubescent person,
>>regardless of how knowledgeable and intelligent, to have the
>>*wisdom* to understand people well enough to develop their
>>characters in a diary?
>
> You don't need to understand people well to write down what they
> do.  And their actions are what form their characters.

Not only that, but `regardless of how knowledgeable and
intelligent'?  Come on!  Candy sees patterns more quickly than
others her age, right?  Total recall, etc.  She learns FAST, and
well.  This ability is not restricted to what she reads in books or
is told by a teacher!  Is she not capable of studying the people
around her?  Why SHOULDN'T she be able to understand people that
well?
     Basically, you're applying standard reactions for `a person her
age', when it's been established that she's far ahead of most people
her age in any sense except the physical; after all, everything else
is created, from the time of birth, by what the brain manages to
take in.

Becky Slocombe
Box 293, Station `P'
Toronto, Ontario  M5S 2S8

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 23:50:13 GMT
From: marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke)
Subject: Re: "Armor" by John Steakley

>This sounds an awful lot like _Starship Troopers_, by (I think)
>Heinlein.  Anyone who's read it have any comment?

Starship Troopers is a first person narrative of a young man's
coming of age in the then-Marine Corps.  He just happens to wear
armor which is a powered exoskeleton, as does one of the main
characters in Armor.  The bad guys in Starship Troopers also happen
to be bemmeys (Bug Eyed Monsters) of a particularly repuslive nature
with a telepathic hive mentality, as they do in Armor.  The Starship
Trooper philosophy is one of citizenship (only veterans can vote),
whereas the philosophy in Armor is one of an aristocracy run amok.
Armor dwells on aristocratic and Army shortcomings (people too
blinded by their desire for emire to make responsible decisions)
whereas ST is a lesson in responsible government and the
responsiblity of the governed to see that government is responsible.

In ST, the first person narrative is given by a teenager who has
joined the Army and relates his experiences in boot camp and in
combat.  He goes through his experiences growing in wisdom and
maturity, and ends up better understanding the foundations of his
democratic (limited sufferage) system.

In Armor, the first person narrative is given by a crook who is in
the business of penetrating a research station for looting purposes.
He falls in with the intellegent but not-too-streetwise head
researcher, who has stumbled across a suit of armor and is slowly
reading out the memory banks stored in the helmet.  The recordings
can only be played back by wearing the helmet and actually living
through the experience (or so it seems to the wearer, of course).
All of the people who wear the helmet for playback are profoundly
affected by the experiences of the unidentified soldier who
submerges his personality and becomes a humanoid fighting machine,
surviving the destruction of entire batallions in strategic and
tactical nightmares.  After some time, no one is willing to believe
that the unidentified soldier has been through the experiences or
could have survived them, so his records are purged and he is sent
back into combat long after he should have been rotated home.  The
implicit message is that he has to be killed off because he might
possibly reveal the magnitude of the botch-up.  The lesson pounded
in again and again is that birthright is not any qualification to
rule or govern.  As it turns out, the unidentified soldier turns up
and his unique qualifications to comment on the above lesson are
revealed.  I can't say more or the Net Spoiler Police will be after
me.

>> It is clear that Steakley was inviting comparison to ST.  Too
>> many details are identical, such as the armor, the military life,
>> the terms for and nature of the enemy forces, the fact that
>> Buenos Aires was nuked in each book, and so on.  There were also
>> striking contrasts.  At a
>
> I never really noticed the similarity between the two (other than
> the armour of course). I thought they were saying different things
> and for that reason think they are equally good (fence sitter :-)

I did, and enjoyed someone having the guts to take an existing model
and do a really good treatment of the topic which is quite different
from RH's.

> Has Steakley written any other books?

Don't know, but I'd sure like to read them if he has.  Armor rates
high on my personal list of the very best SF I've ever read (at last
count, I have 1000+ SF paperbacks at home, and I always throw away
the lousy ones as soon as I finish them...).

Marc Clarke
Hewlett-Packard Company
Loveland, Colorado

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 86 15:08:44 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: "Armor" by John Steakley

marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) writes:
> The lesson [that _Armor_] pounded in again and again is that
> birthright is not any qualification to rule or govern.  As it
> turns out, the unidentified soldier turns up and his unique
> qualifications to comment on the above lesson are revealed.  I
> can't say more or the Net Spoiler Police will be after me.

I'll say a *little* more, Spoiler Cops or no.  (Marc's contrasting
of the two books was pretty solid and thorough, but I just *love* to
pick nits, so here goes.)

I don't see the "lesson" of _Armour_ as relating to birthright at
all, for two reasons.  Many of the people portrayed as incompetent
and worthless gained their positions for reasons unrelated to their
birth, and conversely, one of the more admiriable characters (the
monarch that seeks out the main character) *did* gain his position
by birth.  Instead, I perceived the lesson to be a variant on the
"power corrupts" theme.  In particular, we have all these people who
*say* they are engaged in a War against the BEMs, but they really
are off playing power and dominance games among themselves, and
merely killing (some) BEMs and getting lots of soldiers killed by
the BEMs as a sort of grotesque side effect.  Generalizing, it is
saying that many or all wars have aspects of this gruesome
situation.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 86 20:58:46 GMT
From: okamoto@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (The New Number Who)
Subject: Re: Dying Main Characters

In Piers Anthony's trilogy, _Battle Circle_, which is composed of
_Sos the Rope_, _Var the Stick_, and Neq the Sword_, Sos dies at the
end of the second book, and Var in the middle of the third.

Jeff Okamoto
..!ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 86 18:59:44 EST
From: Jeremy Bornstein
Subject: Re: Dying main characters

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Van Vogt's Null-A books-- I
don't remember in which one Gosseyn (the main character) dies, but
he dies in at least one of them.

Jeremy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 86 0928-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #402
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 402

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home  (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 16:46:15 CST
From: William Martin <control@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: The Star Trek Philosophy

The following is a transcription of a column from the Nov. 30, 1986,
issue of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. I thought it might be of
interest to the SF-Lovers community.

EVER-ENDURING 'STAR TREK' by Harper Barnes

More than a decade ago, in "Beam Me Up, Scotty", the woman called
James Tiptree Jr. wrote about a boy who grew up in love with "Star
Trek". The boy dreamed of cruising space with the crew of the
Enterprise, and so he became a military pilot, hoping to step up to
astronaut. Instead, he ended up flying a war plane in some
Vietnam-like Central American war, a surrogate world war fought with
biological weapons.

The boy who dreamed of space ended up consumed by a plague. As he
lay dying, in either delerium or mystical vision, his soul was
sustained and then lifted by astronauts high above -- astronauts
named Scotty and Kirk and Spock in a spaceship dedicated to peaceful
exploration of the universe.

More recently, in an astonishing article on the front page of the
Nov. 16 New York Times Book Review titled "Spock Among the Women",
Camille Bacon-Smith noted the continuing interest in this
20-year-old science-fiction television series. A new "Star Trek"
series is in the works for next fall, and the voyages have been
extended in an "apparently never-ending series of paperbacks" and
three movies, now joined by "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home".

"But," Bacon-Smith wrote, "there is another world of 'Star Trek.'
Close to 10,000 fans, most of them women, have created over 30,000
pieces of fiction, poetry, song, criticism, commentary and graphic
art based on the television show, movies, and the writing of other
fans.

"The work appears in amateur publications called fanzines,
distributed at conventions and through the mail. Because they use
the copyrighted products of others as a basis for their art but do
not pay for their use, writers in the community are legally
constrained from making a profit.

"This partially explains the predominance of women in the
community...  Women, who traditionally spend a large portion of
their lives working in relative isolation for little or no pay,
bring a different set of motivations to their writing and art. They
want to talk to other women, to express themselves in the science
fiction form that until recently has almost excluded them."

That last phrase is misleading, since much of the enduring science
fiction of the 1950's and '60's was written by women.

Some women science-fiction writers used the genre to express
feminist ideas before Ms. magazine.

But Bacon-Smith writes convincingly and moving [sic] of the fanzine
writers, 90 percent of whom are women: "Individual, unique creation
is not as important to these women as sharing a fantasy universe in
which real-life concerns such as sexuality and equality can be
discussed in the metaphorical language of 'Star Trek'. This sharing
may take the form of a story tree, a group of stories, poems, pieces
of artwork, or novels by one or more authors."

What is it about "Star Trek" that makes it so enduring and that
provides the basic symbols and characters for thousands of
variations? And why have so many devoted amateur writers whose main
interest is in "sharing" experiences rather than in flaunting ego
chosen "Star Trek"?

If you were a science-fiction fan in 1966, when "Star Trek" came on,
you had mixed feelings. On one hand, it was science fiction. On the
other, it had very little to do with the science-fiction of the mid
and late 1960s, when the hot writers were being assembled for a
collection of anthologies called "Dangerous Visions". Science
fiction was turning psychedelic and was soon to get positively mean,
just like the era.

And here was this television show out of the stories of the 1950's,
when science-fiction was a pulp underground for people, mostly very
young, who embraced values that might very broadly be called liberal
in the middle of a repressive era. In the 1950's, science fiction
was a quiet little corner universe where races lived together in
peace and explored the galaxy, where people learned to share --
even, in many stories like Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human"
series, learned a kind of mystical unity that transcended
individuality.

Science fiction meant escape to a world of trust, generosity, racial
harmony, sharing, a world where it was OK to be smart and even
better to put concern for other people above logical self-interest.
To quote e. e. cummings, whose poetry was popular at the same time
among the same people, "There's a hell of a good universe next door.
Let's go."

The sweet, naive, even sometimes sappy, anti-rational humanism --
or, rather, life-formism -- that pervades the new "Star Trek" movie
was there 20 years ago in the television series, and was there for
many in the optimistic science-fiction stories of the 1950's.

By the 1960's, for a period -- say about the length of time that the
Beatles stayed together -- the cult myths of the 1950's underground
were the basis of a huge popular culture. By the end of the decade,
the Klingons of greed were already starting to re-exert control, and
in the 1970's a lot of those feelings were shoved back into the
underground again, which is where they burble today.

But, of course in a country of well more than 200 million people, a
cult can consist of millions, and become in Klingon terms a market
segment, worthy of a series of big-budget, high-tech movies. That is
one of the fascinating ironies of our thoroughly ironic society.

Another irony is that you and millions of others can dial
900-720-TREK and, for 50 cents, listen to one of the "six and a half
humans" in the "Star Trek" crew say a few recorded words on the new
movie, which focuses on the destructive power of greed. Let me save
you 50 cents. I called on Friday, and who was on the other end but
Chekov, the Russian member of the Enterprise crew, or at least a
recording of him. He said a few unmemorable words about the dangers
of the latest adventure and ended with, "You think that the
Klingons, without even knowing it, have gotten the last laugh on us
after all?"

Nope.

**** End of article ****

[Editorial notes: I transcribed the variations of hyphenation of
"science fiction" vs. "science-fiction" as it was printed in the
original.  Also, does anyone know if that assessment of the fanzine
contributors as being "90 percent" women is true? That just seems
rather high, given the impressions I have gotten in the past of the
male > female ratio in SF fandom.]

Regards,
Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 08:09:14 GMT
From: reed!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Flanagan)
Subject: Star Trek IV review -- SPOILERS (though not major ones)

Well, I just got back from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.  Capsule
review: As Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert said, this is the best Trek
yet.  I laughed, I cried, and I cheered.  Moreover, I am not
exagerating.  I really did laugh, cry, and cheer.

SPOILER WARNING

Some more details:

STORY: Not bad at all.  When I first heard that they were going
(coming) back in time, I thought "Oh, no...." .  The premise is well
justified, however, and the entire episode is executed with a lot of
respect for the integrity of Star Trek, and a respect for the more
"mundane" movie-goer as well.  If you know about the plot already,
you are probably aware of many "difficult" concepts which seem
entirely unbelievable within the realm of Star Trek (e.g. what can a
20th Century nuclear aircraft carrier have that might be of use to a
23rd Century Klingon Bird of Prey).  Well, even this is dealt with
in an acceptable manner.  I could easily pick nits about Spock
always having the answers, or Gillian (pronounced with a "J") even
giving Kirk and Spock the time of day, much less a ride to Golden
Gate Park (their landing place).  In "real" life, she would have
driven right past them (possibly giving them a finger as she drove).
In "real" life, she would have said to Kirk, when he began to tell
his story, "Just get away from me, you freak!"  I had to sort of
give her the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

ACTING PERFORMANCES: All the "regulars" did great.  No problems
here.  Robin Curtis leaves something to be desired as Lt. Saavik (as
usual), despite the fact that she has only a cameo role.  She is
just not very good at portraying a Vulcan/Romulan.  Catherine Hicks
(20th Century marine biologist Gillian) was fine, but not
spectacular.  Mark Lenard was great.  The Klingon Ambassador (?????
Schmidt) was very good.  As to Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Uhura, Scotty,
Sulu, and Chekov, they all did admirably.  Each character has a
little exclusive scene, and this makes the whole film more enjoyable
for me as a Trekker.  There are many "cute" scenes (though, once
again, the integrity of the Star Trek universe, and our belief in
these characters and situations as "real" is not compromised by the
jokes).  The jokes tend to be of a depth which other mass-appeal
films might have difficulty trying to pull off (references to
Jacqueline Suzanne and Harold Robbins as "the Giants" of late
Twentieth Century literature).  There are, in addition, many rather
short scenes of conflict between our heroes, which are a nice
addition and add realism.  After Kirk issues a curt command, Scotty
mumbles something like "Well he's in a tizzy, isn't he..."  Spock
and his father have an interesting, though brief, discussion toward
the end, in which... No, you'll have to see it for yourself (review
Journey to Babel).

SPECIAL EFFECTS: These were exciting to watch (and hear), and added
to rather than distracted from the story.  In quite a few cases,
they had a certain "look" of artificiality (especially landscapes,
of which there are quite a few).  They are beautiful to look at, but
the critical eye somehow "knows" that they are just matte-paintings.
I liked them, but I wonder what it might take to avoid this "look".
The scenes of crewmembers exiting a cloaked Bird of Prey in Golden
Gate Park are really something.

MUSIC: The music for this film is quite a change of pace from the
all- classical soundtracks of the previous films.  They have
utilized bits of upbeat light jazz-rock in certain places (notably
when they first begin wandering around San Francisco).  Some punk
(if you've seen this scene, you know what I mean.  If you haven't,
don't get the wrong idea).  The rest remains full-orchestra music,
but with a great deal of variation which the previous soundtracks
lacked.

OVERVIEW: This film is fast-paced, fun, and dramatic.  It is
all-the-way Star Trek in that there are no "bad guys", no
fire-fights or senseless violence.  There is a theme ("Save the
Whales"), and their is a humanity to the film.  Spock seems to find
his humanity by the end of the film, and this is quite touching to
an old Trekker like myself.  The crew are thrown into a situation,
are forced to use their skills and reason to figure their way
through each problem and setback, and must make decisions which will
affect the fate of the world.  What could be more Star Trek than
that?

Timothy R. Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 15:24:47 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: STAR TREK IV [no spoilers]

                    STAR TREK 4: THE VOYAGE HOME
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review: The one-time crew of the Enterprise are
     back in what is probably their best film so far.  While the
     script occasionally borrows from TIME AFTER TIME or lapses into
     low comedy (with a rather silly hospital visit), the main plot
     is new and engaging and the special effects are--
     occasionally--very impressive.

   I usually try to start my reviews by giving a little bit of
background information.  Well, if there's anyone out there who is
unfamiliar with what "Star Trek" is, send me mail and I will fill
you in.  I have just seen the fourth and (well, so much for
suspense) best entry of the "Star Trek" film series.  It continues
the story started with STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN, picking up
shortly after STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK left off.  But for
most of the screen time the characters are involved in an unrelated
adventure that takes them to San Francisco in the 1980's.  (How
convenient!  The TV series had let Kirk see Earth of the 1960's but
never had he seen Earth as it was in the 1980's.)  While Lucas's
"Star Wars" series purports to tell one long story, the segments of
the "Star Trek" series are much better integrated together.  In
fact, with the fourth film the "Star Trek" series may be surpassing
the "Star Wars" series for the quality of its story-telling.  It
certainly doesn't hurt that the "Star Trek" series is getting away
from the scientifically flawed concept of the Genesis Project.

   Ah, but these are generalities.  Specifically, what is STAR TREK
IV: THE VOYAGE HOME about?  Unfortunately, I cannot say very much
about that.  There is a giant thingee from space that is menacing
Earth and to save Earth Kirk and the regulars of the cast must go
back in time to our present.  I could say more but if you've seen
the film you'd already know what I would say and if you haven't you
wouldn't want to know the nature of the menace beforehand.  The
problem is the plot comes in so unexpectedly that almost anything I
could say about it would be spoiler.  Suffice it to say that the
crew is set loose in modern-day San Francisco and must try to seem
normal there as H. G. Wells did in Nicholas Meyer's film TIME AFTER
TIME.  In fact, in several places the script borrows heavily from
TIME AFTER TIME That need not be so surprising since one of the four
listed authors for the script was Nicholas Meyer.  The script takes
on a slightly didactic tone in espousing one of the commoner causes
of our day, but it is well-justified by the plot.

   With the exception of three strikingly unconvincing matte
paintings, Industrial Light and Magic has provided some terrific
special effects.  Most of the film required no special effects at
all, so the effects budget could be focused on the few scenes where
it was really needed.  Some of those are spectacular and constitute
the main reasons you want to see this film on a wide screen if at
all possible.  The music by Leonard Rosenman is in several places
reminiscent of his score to LORD OF THE RINGS.  It is competent but
on the whole probably not up to James Horner's score for STAR TREK
II.  I am not sure why Horner was replaced except perhaps that his
score for STAR TREK III was too much like his previous score.

   STAR TREK IV is fun and still tells a reasonable science fiction
story.  Rate it a low +3 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 86 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #403
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 403

Today's Topics:

                     Films - Star Trek (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 86 22:45:29 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

I generally agree with Tim Flanagan's comments about the movie.  It
is well worth waiting in line and paying five dollars to see.
However, the plot is seriously flawed.  This doesn't ruin the movie,
since its greatness lies in individual scenes and lines, and the
painstaking and believable characterizations, but it is enough to
give one pause.

The main plot conflicts are never resolved.  That is, what the hell
is this probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales,
what is the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was
there between the whales and alien intelligence?  The lack of any
resolution for these points makes the whole movie as devoid of
authentic plot as the average revenge or war story.  The main
obstacle is simply an incomprehensible something that drifts into
the solar system, inadvertently nearly destroys Earth, and then
drifts on as mysteriously as it came.  Wow.  Anyone for a quick game
of D&D, where a bunch of evil monsters come at you for no apparent
reason and you eventually kill them all?  That is the level this
plot operates on.

On a wholly unrelated point, Catherine Hicks' conspicuous
bralessness led to some amusing speculation on scenes in the making
of the movie.  I can hear Nimoy directing, "No, no, Catherine,
you're supposed to be *interested*!  Come on, let's see both of
them!  (pause) Sigh.  Okay, let's get the guy out there to tweak
them up...."

Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 86 03:38:01 GMT
From: ulowell!page@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Page)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>The main plot conflicts are never resolved.  That is, what the hell
>is this probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales,
>what is the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was
>there between the whales and alien intelligence?

Item #1:  It is left to the viewer to entertain possible answers.
Item #2:  Spock could always mind-meld with one of the whales and ask.
Item #3:  It forms the basis for the next ST movie :-)

Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST
has always tried to do.  If you got the point that whales are
intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the
idea.

Most viewers will probably accept the theory that Spock gave
earlier: The race behind the probe thought it was time for a spot
check.

Bob Page
U of Lowell CS Dept.
ulowell!page
page@ulowell.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 08:22:19 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>However, the plot is seriously flawed.  ...  The main plot
>conflicts are never resolved.  That is, what the hell is this
>probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales, what is
>the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was there
>between the whales and alien intelligence?  The lack of any
>resolution for these points makes the whole movie as devoid of
>authentic plot as the average revenge or war story.  The main
>obstacle is simply an incomprehensible something that drifts into
>the solar system, inadvertently nearly destroys Earth, and then
>drifts on as mysteriously as it came.

I think that was the whole point of the plot; that the probe was
beyond human understanding.  If that was what was meant, they didn't
spend enough time developing this idea though.  After all, ST has
often run into totally alien intelligences and has managed to
communicate quite nicely.  All they had to do was tie in the
Universal Translator...

But I won't argue too much for the plot.  There were many plot
faults.  (Like why they kept on transporting up to the ship when
they could have walked up the stairs; it certainly would have saved
on power.)

But, in spite of the faults, it is a wonderful movie.  I think it
clearly was the best of the four at regaining the feel of the TV
series, and it was the only one in which one could unabashedly feel
good at the end.  Now that I have seen the movie twice, I can say
that it also is the only one in which the second viewing is better
than the first.  It makes me feel fine.

David Messer
Software Consultant
UUCP:  ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 86 20:39:55 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re:Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers

page@ulowell.UUCP (Bob Page) writes:
>Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST
>has always tried to do.  If you got the point that whales are
>intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the
>idea.

Actually, I think the point is even more dramatic than that: whales
should not be slaughtered, regardless of their intelligence. Two
scenes come to mind. When they are on the initial tour of the
Cetacean Institute, Spock says "To hunt a species to extinction is
not logical". Later, after the whales are taken a way, Jeanie says
something like "My compassion for the whales is not limited to my
estimate of their intelligence".

I was wondering if one of the premises of the movie is true. Do
whales raised in captivity eventually get released?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 20:06:14 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers

THIS IS A SPOILER.  REPEAT, THIS IS A SPOILER.  NOT A MAJOR ONE, BUT
IT IS A SPOILER.

My major quibble with Gillian's character was that here we have a
cetacean biologist with a photographic memory, enough scientific
ability to be the Cetacean Institute's assistant director, and
enough mental stability to handle being unexpectedly transported
into an alien vessel, flown to Alaska in 12 minutes, and
slingshotted around the sun into the 23rd century, where she gains a
berth on a science ship despite her 'primitive' education.  Yet she
is a ditzy airhead with no scientific curiosity (if *I* saw a
mysterious glow in my rear view mirror, and turned around to see
that the guy I'd just dropped off -- who claimed to come from the
future -- had vanished, NO WAY would I just drive off!  I'd go back
and investigate).  We never see her demonstrate her great mental
abilities; they are all implied, as if her having them is necessary
to the plot but otherwise ignored as much as possible.

On a related note (this is directed at Tim F.), Uhura has no
'special vignette' in which her abilities are demonstrated.  And
when they are all escaping from the sinking Bounty, the men stop to
help her up the ladder (while the equally out-of-shape Scotty
receives no such aid).  AND her uniform has heels.  A long shot
better than the TV series miniskirts, but still...

On the plus side, the Captain of the Saratoga is very competent, as
is the Captain of the (unidentified, I believe) ship which is making
a solar sail to collect energy -- and one is a black woman while the
other is an Indian man.  So this film is not all that deficient in
the equality department; it just doesn't have a Ripley.

Finally, :-) :-) :-) :-)!!!  I am not a radical feminist, nor do I
mean the above complaints to be taken too seriously, since STIV is
by no means a serious film.  It's just that by the 23rd C., 20th C.
mannerisms will have vanished.  And if I were Gillian, no matter how
intrigued I was by comments about extinction and pregnancy, Kirk was
too obviously a creep out to get a date.  I would have thrown them
out of the pickup immediately, if I'd even bothered to pick them up
in the first place.

Again, I am not a feminist, just a humanist, but if people don't pay
any attention to "chauvinism" wherever it is, however slight or
'unimportant' it is, we'll never get rid of it.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 86 22:27:01 GMT
From: ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre)
Subject: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>But I won't argue too much for the plot.  There were many plot
>faults.  (Like why they kept on transporting up to the ship when
>they could have walked up the stairs; it certainly would have saved
>on power.)

Given that they were using the cloaking device and didn't want to
expose the ship, transporting in seems to be the best solution.

If they use the hatch, it's clear that they're entering something
invisible, as opposed to simply disappearing in a flash of light
anywhere around the ship.  This makes it less likely to show a nosy
person will find out exactly where the ship is, although it's hard
to ignore the dent in the ground.  Landing in the park was pretty
stupid, but these things were done for 'dramatic expediency' (to
make the movie more interesting), as Jimmy Doohan said in a lecture
a couple of years back.

Ralph W. Hyre, Jr.
ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu
Phone: (412) 268-2847

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 05:58:18 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

>Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST
>has always tried to do.  If you got the point that whales are
>intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the
>idea.

Yes, I got the idea, and it was one of the most annoying things
about the movie.  I'm sick and tired of seeing SF, Star Trek or
otherwise, that "proves" something by showing it happen (in this
case, "proving" that whales are intelligent).  (Dr. Who does/did
this a great deal, especially in the Pertwee years.)

Also, I am tired of the over-used device where an alien, a computer,
etc...  makes a comment about some facet of contemporary society,
said comment just HAPPENING to be the exact same thing that people
IN the society, including the writer of the movie/book/etc... want
to criticize the society about.  The alien, etc... is in the context
of the story an outside observer with no preconceptions, but of
course the message is REALLY coming from the writer, who is not.
(I'm not saying that stories should never be written this way, but I
do think that a) when it is done it's usually done poorly, that b)
it's an unfair argument, and that c) it tends to ruin "willing
suspension of disbelief", which is of course especially important in
SF.

DISCLAIMER: I am not claiming that whales should be mercilessly
slaughtered, I am only quarreling with the claim that the whales are
intelligent.

SECOND DISCLAIMER: The first disclaimer _shouldn't_ be necessary,
but from what I have seen on the net, it usually is.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 19:44:41 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Also, I am tired of the over-used device where an alien, a
>computer, etc...  makes a comment about some facet of contemporary
>society, said comment just HAPPENING to be the exact same thing
>that people IN the society, including the writer of the
>movie/book/etc... want to criticize the society about.  The alien,
>etc... is in the context of the story an outside observer with no
>preconceptions, but of course the message is REALLY coming from the
>writer, who is not.  (I'm not saying that stories should never be
>written this way, but I do think that a) when it is done it's
>usually done poorly, that b) it's an unfair argument, and that c)
>it tends to ruin "willing suspension of disbelief", which is of
>course especially important in SF.
>
>DISCLAIMER: I am not claiming that whales should be mercilessly
>slaughtered, I am only quarreling with the claim that the whales
>are intelligent.

I think that what you have hit upon is the difference between
``art'' and ``propaganda''.  If you take an art form and use it to
grind your own axe, you are writing propaganda.  Most propaganda
stinks (hell, most everything stinks) but good propaganda is a lot
of fun.  Of course, you will find it a lot less fun if you happen to
violently disagree with the author.  Let me repeat this, so that I
don't get involved in a long discussion I don't want.  I THINK THAT
SOME PROPAGANDA IS DAMN FINE ENJOYABLE WRITING.  Okay?  If I thought
that all propaganda should be relegated to the trash bins, I would
have to empty all my bookshelves.

David Brin is on record as saying that he doesn't think that whales
and dolphins are intelligent.  I still think that Startide Rising
would have been fun to write.  I didn't get the sense that Startide
Rising was another dolphin story.  But I still think that Startide
Rising was propaganda.  Science fiction is heralded as the
``literature of ideas'' but when you take away the gadgetry in hard
science fiction, what are you left with?  A whole lot of ideas, and
a lot of wordage which was written to support these ideas.  And most
of these ideas do not appear to me to be conceived as ``hey,
wouldn't it be neat if *this* character had *that* problem'' but
instead as ``wow, I'm going to write something which makes a strong
political statement, and use all of these characters as metaphors
for existing problems, and these places as symbols of these
psychological disorders''.  Do you understand the difference?

This is one of the things the ``New Wave'' (old news now) of 60s
writers did for science fiction.  Science fiction became political.
But take a look at the stories in, say, Dangerous Visions, and see
how many of them you think have lasting value beyond the ideas that
were politically current at the time they were written.  Also look
and see how good the writing is.  Good writing can make even old,
tired, done to death propaganda palatable.

The problem with most propaganda is that there really is no plot, or
characterization, and it doesn't even tell a very good story.  The
writer of propaganda is only interested in getting the message
across -- and to hell with any of the other details of writing.  If
the idea is particularly new, the writing will grip me anyway --
but it is a Funny-once.  The second time through all I get is ``bad
writing -- quick where is my editor's blue pencil!  Bad writing''.
If the idea is not new -- then I don't even get the Funny-once.

Some people have a lot more tolerance than I for this.  The first
Xanth book written by Piers Anthony was a Funny-once.  But not only
didn't it stand up to another read -- I couldn't read any of the
subsequent books either.  Puns, at least to me, are Funny-once, and
a whole series of adventures written in order to tell more puns
strikes me as even more excruciating than a whole series of
adventures written in order to make a point with propaganda.
Perhaps if Piers Anthony took better care with his *writing* as he
turned out the Xanth books I could handle it.  It still astonishes
me that the same person who wrote Macroscope can write the Xanth
novels.

But, if the writing is good, then I can re-read, and re-read, and
re-read and the writing is still good.  It doesn't matter how many
times I have read the book.  Today I reread Zelazny's *Isle of the
Dead* which quite probably is my favourite book of all time to read.
I must have read it at least 100 times.  The ideas are there, but I
never got the sense that Zelazny had any political axe to grind.
It is just beautiful.  In my mind this is Art.

Another book I can reread is *Out of the Silent Planet*.  That, I
think, is propaganda.  Beautifully written, immensely readable,
enjoyable propaganda, but still propaganda. C. S. Lewis - I disagree
with most of your ideas, but boy, can you write.

This, of course, leaves me wondering about the Narnia series.
Unlike the other three, I don't read the Narnia Books as propaganda.
But does that mean that it didn't start out as propaganda and that
made all the difference?  Or did it grow to be something other than
propaganda in its creation?  Or am I too dense to notice that it is
propaganda?

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura
toad@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 86 0833-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #404
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 404

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Niven (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 12:30:45 EST
From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Random Niven stuff

1) Stasis fields are not suitable for an indestructable hull,
concave or no concave surface.

A perfect stasis field blocks anything except gravitation.  Thus, no
viewports could be provided.  Small viewports are not acceptable
because they are weak points -- imagine what happens when an X-ray
laser pushes through a few 1E-6 m diameter ports!  That could still
be easily enough energy to fry everyone inside.

Remember what happened in Ringworld when some things were
TOPOLOGICALLY outside the hull.  If the hull has holes, then
everything "inside" the hull is topologically outside.  The
puppeteers didn't make that mistake again!

Nor is an imperfect stasis field a solution.  It wouldn't provide
suitable protection.  Consider a stasis field as something which
changes the rate of flow of time, and think about what happens in
terms of refractive indices.  You'd need a perfect stasis field to
make this work.

2) Stasis fields with a concave shape are not known to exist.  The
Sea Statue implies the possibility, but this was not proven
(although it is admittedly very strong evidence that concave stasis
fields exist).  The variable sword isn't proof, either; it clearly
has a convex shape if the wire is a perfect right cylinder, which is
not at all impossible (actually, why is the wire inside at all?  The
field itself would work).

3) There's plenty of reason to believe that human protectors helped
out in the human-kzin wars.  That could explain why the puppeteers
believed that humans were "lucky" (protectors are much more
intelligent and clever than puppeteers).  Lucky people usually
create their own luck.  And it didn't seem that Teela eating
tree-of-life was very lucky for her -- she died young, after all.
So whether or not the puppeteers believed that they could breed the
humans for luck means little.  For that matter, a few protectors
could have done the actual genetic engineering with little
difficulty -- look at how little trouble Brennan had when he wanted
to do something.

4) Superconducting wire would very likely be quite strong.  If I
remember, most of the proposals for superconducting organics involve
long chains.  This is just right for a material that is very strong
in tension, but is easy to make into a cloth.  In fact, Kevlar has
just this sort of structure, even if it isn't conducting.

Robert Krawitz
rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 17:21:44 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Nivens' science
From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

   I wouldn't classify most of Nivens' work as 'hard science',
science fiction, as the science just serves to get the characters
into trouble, rather than the characters being used to discover the
science.  But he does present some amusing ideas.  Stassis won't do
for a spaceship hull because it wouldn't let time pass inside, so we
have the 'sea-statue', poor critter.  Stassis fields are RIGID!

   Part of the foreword of 'DOWN IN FLAMES' is an explanation of
why Niven is tired of 'Known Space'; too many fantastic materials to
keep track of.

   Myself, I think he has at least one more blockbuster book to
write to clean it up.  What DID happen to those Homeless
PROTECTORS???

   I'm sure Nessus would be glad for us to think that only the
lotteries, rather than gene manipulation had resulted in 'lucky'
humans.  We might well join the Kzin on a revenge expedition.  At
the very least it would put quite a crimp on future man-puppeteer
relations.

   I don't believe a few hundred thousand years is sufficient for
the diversity observed on ringworld, if evolution was working
normally.  It had help, and may well still have help.

   Known Space is a big place, and the constraints of moving
secretly slowing them, the surviving Protectors must be spread thin.
What about the Grogs? Aren't they a threat?

   Did Teela Brown lie about the disease killing off the Protectors
of the Ring World? If so, why?  Must Louis Wu return to Known space?

   There must be a third Ringworld novel in the works.

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Dec 86 22:35:46-CST
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Niven's inheritable luck debate

Various people have posted messages saying that if luck were
inheritable, we'd already have it since it would be of great
survival value.  Other people have replied "that's true, maybe we
ARE lucky and don't realize it."

It seems to me that luck is indeed of great survival value, so much
so that if you are lucky, you will NOT pass the trait on because you
WON'T have children...! :-)

More seriously, it seems there is a great flaw in assuming that an
inheritable trait of great value must necessarily exist in our genes
now.  Obviously evolution takes TIME, and the first mutation must
occur.  The arguments given all seem analogous to saying "If there
is a funny joke, it will get repeated and soon everyone will know
it.  Therefore any joke I haven't heard must not be funny."

Just because something will get spread around eventually if it
arises does not imply that it must be spread around now -- either
enough time hasn't elapsed, or it hasn't arisen yet in the first
place.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 03 Dec 86 12:37:05 EST (Wed)
From: Rick Genter <rgenter@labs-b.bbn.com>
Subject: The Smoke Ring

     As those of you who subscribe to Analog know by now, Larry
Niven's new novel, _The_Smoke_Ring_, is being serialized starting
with the January issue.  I loved _The_Integral_Trees_ (debates about
evolution aside), and was looking forward to reading
_The_Smoke_Ring_.

     Well, I started to read it last night, and for some reason I
don't like it.  I can't put my finger on it, but I get the distinct
impression that the writing is *forced*, like someone was holding a
gun to Niven's head until he finished it.  Does anyone else get that
impression?

Rick Genter
(617) 497-3848
BBN Laboratories Inc.
10 Moulton St.  6/512
Cambridge, MA   02238
rgenter@labs-b.bbn.COM  (Internet new)
rgenter@bbn-labs-b.ARPA (Internet old)
seismo!bbncca!rgenter (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 19:24:50 GMT
From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers)

desj@brahms (David desJardins) writes:
>kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes:
>>"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell also depends heavily on
>>a sentient computer.
>   This novel is remarkable for the complete lack of computer
>technology.  I don't remember anything smarter than an autopilot.
>Are you thinking of a different book?

In fact, the level of all kinds of technology throughout the book
was appallingly low.  I though I had picked up something by Van
Vogt by mistake.  Not just the technology, but the characters and
situations reminded me of '30's or early '40's pulp fiction.  Fine
for nostalga, but the book was almost embarrassingly archaic by
'80's standards.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 86 23:25:07 GMT
From: oakhill!hunter@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales)
Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers)

ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>In fact, the level of all kinds of technology throughout the book
>was appallingly low.  I though I had picked up something by Van
>Voigt by mistake.  Not just the technology, but the characters and
>situations reminded me of '30's or early '40's pulp fiction.  Fine
>for nostalga, but the book was almost embarrassingly archaic by
>'80's standards.

   I will take exception to this.  The novel was set in world in
which a number of interstellar wars had taken place.  The characters
and situations derived from the fact that the current "empire" had
only comparatively recently risen from pre-interplanetary travel
stages of barabarism, again.  This explained the extreme sexism and
low levels of technology.  You may argue that things wouldn't turn
out this way, but, in the context of the story, it was plausible.  I
think it is one of the better sf books I have read from the point of
view of character development.

Motorola Semiconductor Inc.
Hunter Scales Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 00:20:43 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.EDU (John Sloan)
Subject: Re: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

>>"The Mote in God's Eye" by Niven/Pournell
>This novel is remarkable for the complete lack of computer
>technology.

Must be thinking of _Oath of Fealty_ by the same authors, containing
a sentient computer named MILLIE. _The Mote in God's Eye_ lacked a
lot of high tech stuff because the powers that be froze the
technological state of their culture at a level that they believed
would prevent global/near space conflicts.

John Sloan
jsloan@wright.{CSNET,UUCP}
...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan
Computer Science Department
Wright State University
Dayton OH, 45435
+1 513 873 2491

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 19:00:44 GMT
From: atari!apratt@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Allan Pratt)
Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers)

I thought that the technology (or lack thereof) in Mote was a
legitimate result of the fact that this was the SECOND empire, built
on the ruins of the first.  All they've had time to do was
(re-)develop the Langston Field and the Alderson Drive, plus the
rudimentary computers, weapons, and communications systems they had.
Aside from that, they've been too busy bringing the Galaxy under
control to prevent another Great Collapse (I forget what it was
called, if anything, but Great Collapse is close enough).  I found
it refreshing that the story DIDN'T rely on amazingly-powerful /
sentient computers (like Star Trek: "Computer, analyze this data.").

As for characterization and style, I guess I'm just a naive reader:
I don't know much about Great Literature, but I know what I like.

Allan Pratt
Atari Corp.
...lll-lcc!atari!apratt

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 86 20:36:21 GMT
From: bambi!mike@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mike Caplinger)
Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (was self-aware computers)

The technology level in MOTE is INTENTIONALLY low!  Don't you
remember that the Second Empire of Man was only recently
established, and built upon the ruins of the First Empire, whose
technology level was much higher?  Don't remember the set of crystal
on board MACARTHUR that had been cut from the windscreen of a
wrecked First Empire shuttle, because no such material could be made
with Second Empire technology?

You could argue about the merits of this book legitimately (I loved
it almost unreservedly myself) but the level of technology doesn't
seem like a legitimate complaint.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.com

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 21:20:19 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Supercondicting cloth

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Show me a wire cloth as flexible as cotton (as the superconducting
>cloth was implied to be) and yet able to conduct well, and I'll
>show you something that makes perpetual motion machines look
>plausible by comparison...  The two don't mix.

Obviously, you've never seen solder wick. If you take some nice
thick solder wick and spread it out to a width of about 1/4" and a
thickness of about 1 strand, it approaches (if not equals) the
flexability of a tough denim or muslin cloth. Since it is made of
copper, it conducts fairly well.

Also, are you forgetting conductive foams, graphite fiber weaves,
aluminum foil, (or for that matter, gold leaf?), etc. You may not
like these as examples (they're not all *wire* cloth, and you may
define "conduct well" differently) but even so, one could make
something like solder wick with much smaller strands of 24K gold
wire, and I bet it would be *very* flexible. (it conducts ok, too
:-) I won't even talk about chain mail and similar cloths; they are
*very* supple.

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
...seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 86 06:36:25 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld)

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) writes:
>I have news for you.  It is now essentially proven that humans
>evolved from lower primates which in turn evolved from lower forms
>of life, by the science of Molecular Biology.
>        ...
>   For example, if we hadn't evolved from something close to
>chimpanzees, we wouldn't have ~98% DNA sequence homology to them

Proving that we are related to chimpanzees does not prove that we
evolved from them.  We don't have many examples of fossilized DNA so
evolution is not proven by molecular biology.  Natural selection and
evolution is widely accepted mainly because there aren't many
competing theorys which don't presuppose a guiding intelligence (a
no-no in science.)  The evidence for N.S. and Evolution is really
rather scanty.  That is why there seems to be a major shake-up in
the field every time a new fossil is discovered.

If one assumes a race such as the protectors, couldn't one assume
that they lasted long enough to do some breeding experiments that
would account for a lot of the fossil record?  Then if you include
the puppeteers, and who knows what other races, it would be very
easy to account for the entire "evolutionary" record on Earth.

David Messer
Software Consultant
ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 86 00:58:05 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

While I won't comment on the feasability of psionic traits, one
thing that has to be remembered in Niven's Known Space stories is
that there are people with such abilities, and that the Birth
Lottery selected for them.  Also, while the lottery might not
necessarily select for carriers of that trait (Luck) any more than
natural selection, it *would* make carriers of that trait much more
readily identifiable.

And finally, in one of the two Ringworld books, Niven points out
that the human race as a whole has a Luck Field that dictated the
discovery of the Ringworld at the time it was needed; Teela was
actually seen in _Engineers_ to be less than perfectly lucky, unless
you consider being killed to save your race after being turned into
a Protector "luck".

On a related note, about four years ago, when I was last on the Net,
someone posted an outline that Niven and Spinrad had plotted to "the
last Known Space novel", entitled _Down In Flames_. I've long since
lost my copy; is there anyone out there who has one? (The outline,
that is; the novel was never produced, and in the wake of
_Engineers_, it looks like it never will be.)

Kevin Maroney

[Moderator's Note: The outline mentined above is available via the
anonymous login function of FTP only.  The file is
T:<SFL>DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 86 0853-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #405
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 405

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (17 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 15:49:06 GMT
From: ukecc!grant@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Miles)
Subject: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

One thing I noticed recently after seeing Star Trek IV was that for
the first time in many time travel movies, Kirk actually took
someone into the future with him. This would leave a major question
mark in the classic paradox of time travel, concerning the
non-existence of "Gillian" (the whale expert) which Kirk took to the
23rd century. Her family would not exist. And what about the Phaser
and communicator that Chekov left on the USS Enterprise (The
aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely since he left those
gadgets behind, our society would have gained a technology leap.

Any replies/comments..Welcome

Miles

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 06:33:17 GMT
From: may@husc4.harvard.edu (jason may)
Subject: Star Trek V...

   From Boston After Dark (Boston Phoenix weekly Arts supplement):

      "...With six more sequels reportedly in the making (Shatner is
      scheduled to direct the next two..."

Truth?

Jason
may@husc4.harvard.edu
...seismo!harvard!husc4!may

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 15:26:48 GMT
From: wchao@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (William Chao <wchao@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

   To clear up some questions you posted on net.startrek, pick up a
copy of the paperback book and read thru it. It should answer all of
your questions.
   By the way, the probe is not communicating to the whales
(initially yes, later on, no)because it's destroying Earth so that
it can start to plant some whales again.(the book makes this quite
clear)

William Chao
wchao@topaz

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 20:38:14 GMT
From: elxsi!billp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Petro)
Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes:
>This makes it less likely to show a nosy person will find out
>exactly where the ship is, although it's hard to ignore the dent in
>the ground.

Did anyone notice that when the wind was blowing, not only did the
grass on the ground move, but so did the grass in the 'dent in the
ground' which was covered by a multi-megaton cloaked cruiser?

Bill Petro
{ucbvax!sun,altos86,styx}!elxsi!billp

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 15:19:47 pst
From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
Subject: Some comments (and protential spoilers) on Star Trek IV

Regarding the omments made on the formula and glasses:

   The formula has no physical existence, and is therefore not
subject to the nasty problems of time travel.  As for the glasses,
it is not clear that this would later be the pair that Kirk
received.

Now, regarding the interaction of 23rd century technology and 20th
century technology:

Just how much radiation does it take to disable a phaser (even a
cheap Klingon night special)?

And, on a more musing note:

Presumably a transporter creates a fair amount of ionizing
radiation?  Does this mean that if they transported down near a
smoke detector, the detector would go off?  (Might blow a nice quite
arrival for them...)

Sorry about the disjointed message, but I am in a bit of a hurry -
the system is going down very shortly for PM.

Eric Hildum
dehildum@ucdavis        (BITNET)
hiildum%clover%ucdavis.uucp@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
hildum%ucd@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 18:46:16 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_adhw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Wachsstock)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>Lastly, the *point* of the movie was to teach you something, as ST
>>has always tried to do.  If you got the point that whales are
>>intelligent and should not be mercilessly slaughtered, you got the
>>idea.
>Yes, I got the idea, and it was one of the most annoying things
>about the movie. <...More stuff on moralizing in SF>

Actually, according to an interview I read (29 November Newsday, I
believe), with Nimoy himself, he really doesn't care much about
whales and conservation, any more than he really cares about Star
Trek (evidently not a :-) on that); the whales and moralizing were
just a plot device, not his deeply-held belief.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 17:27:17 GMT
From: jpierre@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (John Pierre)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

grant@ukecc.UUCP (Miles) writes:
>And what about the Phaser and communicator that Chekov left on the
>USS Enterprise (The aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely
>since he left those gadgets behind, our society would have gained a
>technology leap.

An interesting point: since the Navy officers were convinced that
Chekov was a Russian spy...once they got around (if they do) to
examining the phaser and learning how powerful and advanced it is,
there is sure to be alot of noise in the area of U.S.-Soviet levels
of technology.

john pierre
@mit-eddie.arpa
@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 03:48:47 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>The main plot conflicts are never resolved.  That is, what the hell
>is this probe, who sent it, why is it trying to talk to the whales,
>what is the nature of whale intelligence, what prior contact was
>there between the whales and alien intelligence?  The lack of any
>resolution for these points makes the whole movie as devoid of
>authentic plot as the average revenge or war story.

Tim isn't the only one asking these questions.  My answer???

The absence of information about the probe is a significant part of
the theme.  All that can be inferred from the movie is that the
whales were hunted to extinction and something *cared*.  We don't
know who or what the something was, or even why it gave a damn, but
we do know it cared.

The fact that we (and the characters) never find out why adds a
touch of humility to the film which is very much in keeping with its
"Save the Whales"/Environmentalist/"Show some respect for the
universe" theme.

It also accents exactly how unknown the universe can be.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 06:09:07 GMT
From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

billp@elxsi.UUCP (Bill Petro) writes:
>Did anyone notice that when the wind was blowing, not only did the
>grass on the ground move, but so did the grass in the 'dent in the
>ground' which was covered by a multi-megaton cloaked cruiser?

That's what happens when you pull the ground down with fans blowing
on it.. ;-) Aren't you gald they thought to trip the grass down?
Originally they had the sod a normal height but the miniature trash
can looked like it was sitting in heavy weeds...

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4,hp-labs!hp-sdd,akgua,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!victoro
crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 14:35:22 GMT
From: osu-eddie!jac@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James Clausing)
Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes:
>Given that they were using the cloaking device and didn't want to
>expose the ship, transporting in seems to be the best solution.  If
>they use the hatch, it's clear that they're entering something
>invisible, as opposed to simply disappearing in a flash of light
>anywhere around the ship.  This makes it less likely to show a nosy
>person will find out exactly where the ship is, although it's hard
>to ignore the dent in the ground.  Landing in the park was pretty
>stupid, but these things were done for 'dramatic expediency' (to
>make the movie more interesting), as Jimmy Doohan said in a lecture
>a couple of years back.

Remember the scene where they leave the ship in the first place, if
they open the hatch it is much more obvious that there is something
there (even if that only lasts for the short time that the hatch is
open).  One point that no one else has mentioned yet, is that with
the ship cloaked it would be pretty hard to find any external switch
or button that opened that hatch, if one exists (think about it, the
only time we've ever seen the hatch opened it has been opened from
inside the ship, other times when on the ground they just left it
open).  Even given all of that, how did Spock get back on when there
was no one on board to operate the transporter?  As I mentioned
before, I still loved the movie.

Jim Clausing
CIS Department
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@ohio-state.CSNET
jac@ohio-state.ARPA
jac@osu-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Thu 4 Dec 86 12:43:07-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: star trek 4

I think the reason I enjoyed Star Trek IV more than I enjoyed the
other three is that it did not take itself seriously.  It was
presented as entertainment, and I was entertained.  The others
seemed to be trying to be "deep" and failing that, they were
pompous.

Although I found Scotty's interaction with the Macintosh incredibly
hard to believe -- a first time user just doesn't use MacDraw that
competently!

Judy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 86 16:19:35 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: STAR TREK IV SPOILER

******SPOILER******

Want to bet the reason they decommissioned the Enterprise in TSFS
was that they were already building NCC-1701-A?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 23:56:07 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

wchao@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (William Chao <Wchao@topaz.rutgers.edu>)
writes:
>   To clear up some questions you posted on net.startrek, pick up a
>copy of the paperback book and read thru it. It should answer all
>of your questions.
>   By the way, the probe is not communicating to the
>whales(initially yes, later on, no)because it's destroying Earth so
>that it can start to plant some whales again.(the book makes this
>quite clear)

Boo, hiss. The book is the book, and the movie is the movie. If one
is needed for the other to make sense, then someone fell down on the
job. Since the movie did not make clear why the thingie from outer
space was destroying human civilization on earth, the moviegoer has
to find his own answer. Saying "the book gives the answers" is a
cop-out. (And, I suspect, just what the publishing people want us to
do).

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 18:14:21 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

> One thing I noticed recently after seeing Star Trek IV was that
> for the first time in many time travel movies, Kirk actually took
> someone into the future with him. This would leave a major
> question mark in the classic paradox of time travel, concerning
> the non-existence of "Gillian" (the whale expert) which Kirk took
> to the 23rd century. Her family would not exist. And what about
> the Phaser and communicator that Chekov left on the USS Enterprise
> (The aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely since he left
> those gadgets behind, our society would have gained a technology
> leap.

Comments about Point #1: Obviously Nature doesn't allow paradoxes
(paradice?)  so any apparent troubles must be relegated to the null
file with Zeno's Paradox and socialism and all the other seemingly
real but evanescent phenomena.

Point #2: As my first hero in life pointed out in Astounding SF
Magazine, a long time ago, just because we have access to future
technology doesn't mean we could learn anything about it.  Campbell
presented the same argument in two different editorials about twenty
years apart, but it goes something like this: a jet plane from the
1980s pops through a time warp back in the 1920s.  No pilot is
around to explain things, but they know it flies.  (They saw it
land.)  There are no vacuum tubes in it, only solid state devices,
PWBs, ICs, fiber optics, and the panoply of modern high tech.  The
20s scientists and engineers know it's a device from the future,
and that it works.  Even has names like GE, RCA, NEC, turbines from
Pratt & Whitney, etc.  The question remains: where do they start in
attempting to understand the functions of the aircraft's parts?

In the 20s there are no instruments capable of inputting messages to
the micros or for interpreting any outputs they might accidentally
obtain.  Most likely, they'd burn out the solid state stuff.  Would
they ever think of formulating jet fuel and trying the engines?
(Maybe kerosene, but could they even open the tanks?)

And on and on and on....

To try to duplicate, maybe even to operate, technology from 300
years in the future, might be an impossible task and probably
wouldn't advance us at all.

(There is an interesting apocrypal story in Bell Labs that a crashed
saucer exists and that an occasional tech type is allowed to try his
or her hand at the evaluation we are discussing here.  Let's
see...UFO crashed in 1946; BTL did the transistor in 1948; US did H
bomb in 1952; space travel in 1960s; lasers, ICs, etc....hmmm,
couldn't be true, could it?)

arlan

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 86 17:35:50 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

jpierre@eddie.MIT.EDU (John Pierre) writes:
>An interesting point: since the Navy officers were convinced that
>Chekov was a Russian spy...once they got around (if they do) to
>examining the phaser and learning how powerful and advanced it is,
>there is sure to be alot of noise in the area of U.S.-Soviet levels
>of technology.

I was under the impresion that they had been rendered non-functional
by the radiation, as seen when Chekov attempted to stun the CIA
types.  If the were damaged possibly the agents would just write
them off as toys and file them (after all, Chekov did have quite a
story for them to laugh at :-)

Bryan McDonald
Univ. of California @ Davis

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 86 01:39:10 GMT
From: cae780!alan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alan M. Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

grant@ukecc.UUCP (Miles) writes:
>This would leave a major question mark in the classic paradox of
>time travel, concerning the non-existence of "Gillian" (the whale
>expert) which Kirk took to the 23rd century. Her family would not
>exist.

I already answered this once, but in case it didn't get through,
I'll say it again.  Gillian mentions at one point that she has "no
one" in the 20th Century.  Read "no SO, no children, no family".
They may have run a computer check to find out that Gillian had no
important descendents.  (The Vulcans did provide a full computer
library.)  Hence, no dent in the fabric of time.  The whales
transported would have been shot dead, and their yield of a few
perfume bottles would not have changed the future significantly.  In
my books, it was a pretty safe move.

Alan Steinberg
tektronix!cae780!alan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 00:52:35 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

Just how DID that trash can, presumably blown by the downblast of
the landing thrusters, manage to end up under the ship instead of at
the clearing's edge?

Think about it.

Mirth.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 86 0906-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #406
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 406

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams (6 msgs) & Heinlein (7 msgs) &
                    Story Request Answered (2 msgs) &
                    Main Character Dying

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 86 18:41:51 GMT
From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (mild spoilers)

karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes:
>In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.  In
>the fourth, it's back.  Did Adams ever explain this properly?

As properly as Adams ever explains anything.  He devoted two or
three paragraphs to it at the beginning of one of the final few
chapters of Goodbye_and_thanks_for_all_the_fish.  You can guess who
were involved.

>Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
>second head natural?  How is it that he had only one head when
>Arthur first met him (at the party)?

This was not explained, but I got the impression that Zaphod had the
second head and third arm attached because he felt like it.
Remember when the insect receptionist quivered in rage "Who do you
think you are anyway, Zaphod Beeblebrox?"  To which Zaphod replys
through gritted teeth, "Count the heads."  Clearly not many people
have two heads.  Besides, Zaphod and Ford are both from the same
planet, and were even classmates together.  Ford looks human.  (If
you can ignore certain inhuman mannerisms.)

>And how many flat-out inconsistencies are there in the series?
>Arthur (with fish in ear) should be able to understand any spoken
>language, but he shouldn't be able to read them -- I think this
>causes several problems.

You mean, why is he able to read the Guide, and signs like "Don't be
alarmed.  Be very frightened, Arthur Dent."  I think you just have
to put it down as a side effect of the fish.

>These are no worse than the endless Star Trek questions.

At least it's in the right newsgroup.

Cheers.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 86 19:08:01 GMT
From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

6111231@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>karl@haddock.UUCP (Karl Heuer) writes:
>>Evidently Zaphod was born with two arms, not three.  But is his
>>second head natural?
>
>And notice too that Zaphod's grandfather also has 3 arms.  (at
>least if my memory serves me.)

Great-grandfather, I think.  But remember the last four generations
of Beeblebroxes were the product of an accident with a condom and a
time machine.  I think his great-grandfather was Zaphod Beeblebrox
the IVth, where "our" Zaphod was the Ist.  Or something like that.
Therefore Zaphod could have made personal choices that propagated to
past generations.

Isn't this fun?

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 19:37:25 GMT
From: watnot!javoskamp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Voskamp)
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Trivia

As I recall there where several songs that came out shortly after
The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, performed by the actors from
the series.  One that I can recall in particular is "Marvin, I love
you" which features the voice of Marvin and possibly Trillian.  Does
anyone know of any other songs and where one might get a copy of
them?  Thanks.

UUCP  : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp
CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
BITNET: javoskam@watcsg.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 16:15:00 GMT
From: willisr@pyr1.Cs.Ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide Trivia

Here in England (that little iddy biddy island just off the coast of
Europe), there exist several concurrent versions of HHGG on
different media. Some of these contradict each other in various
ways.

With this in mind, I remember hearing a radio series (part of) about
2 years ago of HHGG which has not appeared in any of the 4 books.

The particular episode to which I am referring consists of this
bird-inhabited planet on the surface of which is a 13-mile high
statue of Arthur Dent throwing a teacup at the Nutrimatics drink
synthesiser.  The teacup is suspended 'by art' ~13 miles off the
ground.

As far as I remember, for some reason Zaphod is about to fall off
the statue and says 'Belgium man, Belgium."

The narrator explained that Belgium was the worst obscenity known to
civilisation and is only used by loose:tongued people like Z.B.  (It
was also used on a small land-mass on Earth where the inhabitabnts
didn't know what it meant.)

In the version of LTUAE what I read, the guy at the flying party won
the award for the most gratuitous use of the word F%$#.

The word belgium does not appear at all in any of the 4 books.

The main point to remember is that the books and radio series are
not consistent to the point of consistency.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 86 20:04:35 GMT
From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Hitch Hiker's Trivia

javoskamp@watnot.UUCP (Jeff Voskamp) writes:
> As I recall there where several songs that came out shortly after
> The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, performed by the actors
> from the series.  One that I can recall in particular is "Marvin,
> I love you" which features the voice of Marvin and possibly
> Trillian.  Does anyone know of any other songs and where one might
> get a copy of them?  Thanks.

Then there was the single of the theme tune from the radio series
(you know, the one that goes da-da-da-da etc...) which had a
rendition of a song by Disaster Area called "Don't Panic - it's only
the end of the world again" on the b-side.  Unfortunately not along
the lines of "Boy meets girl beneath the silvery moon, which then
explodes for no adequately explored reason".
   With regard to getting hold of a copy, the only one I know to
exist is my own and I had enough trouble getting hold of that,
although the theme tune is also to be found on one of the albums
from the series.

Tim.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 86 14:48:31 GMT
From: C18IO131@NCSUVM.BITNET
Subject: re: Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster

As a dedicated fan of Douglas Adams, and in hopes of completely the
cultural assimilation of the "atmosphere" apparent in the Trilogy, I
was and still am hoping to make a Imitation Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster with materials available here on Earth.  Does any one have
any ideas for suitable substitutes?  I was thinking along the lines
of EverClear for the "Old Janx Spirit" but I just cant seem to find
a good substitute for Algolian Sun Tiger Tooth.  Any Ideas?  Maybe a
net.alcohol.pangalactic?  If there is enough response, I'll post the
composite composition for all to enjoy and become more "cultured".

Allen Pippin,
C18IO131@NCSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 21:06:35 GMT
From: ubc-cs!manis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Fantasy vs science fiction

Of course, if you're Robert Heinlein, you can explain away the
difference between fantasy and science fiction by defining all of
your books as accurate records of alternate worlds. That way, you
can produce a new book by mixing together all of your previous ones.
Even if there are inconsistencies, it doesn't matter. Perhaps the
universe in which your hero does X (in one book) is a different one
from the one in which the hero does not-X (in another book).

Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or
characterisation.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 08:08:50 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction

manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes:
>Of course, if you're Robert Heinlein, you can explain away the
>difference between fantasy and science fiction by defining all of
>your books as accurate records of alternate worlds.
>   Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or
>characterisation.

Or if your writing career has spanned 50 years.

I certainly don't begrudge Heinlein the right to try to tie all his
works together after all the enjoyment his books have given me.
Lazy?  No, I don't think I'd use that word to describe a man who was
a major force in defining what we today call "Science Fiction."

David Messer
Software Consultant
ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 86 07:06:57 GMT
From: alberta!bjorn@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bjorn R. Bjornsson)
Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction

manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes:
> Of course, if you're Robert Heinlein, you can explain away the
> difference between fantasy and science fiction by defining all of
> your books as accurate records of alternate worlds....
>
> Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or
> characterisation.

I take this to mean that as a good example of somebody, that is too
lazy to do decent plotting or characterisation, we could pick R.A.
Heinlein?

Sheesh, ever read "Time Enough For Love", "Stranger in a Strange
Land"?  I suggest you pick on smaller fry next time, even though
Heinlein often recycles characters that I believe fit his philosophy
of life.

Bjorn R. Bjornsson
alberta!bjorn

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 20:19:31 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction

bjorn@alberta.UUCP (Bjorn R. Bjornsson) writes:
>> Works great if you're too lazy to do decent plotting or
>> characterisation.
>I take this to mean that as a good example of somebody, that is too
>lazy to do decent plotting or characterisation, we could pick R.A.
>Heinlein?
>
>Sheesh, ever read "Time Enough For Love", "Stranger in a Strange
>Land"?  I suggest you pick on smaller fry next time, even though
>Heinlein often recycles characters that I believe fit his
>philosophy of life.

Goodness, are we going to do White Hats and Black Hats again here!?
I think that Heinlein did decent plotting an characterisation in
Stranger in a Strange Land -- but what happened in *The Cat Who
Walked Through Walls*?

There is a problem in recycling old characters.  Some old characters
become old friends.  I have read every single Nero Wolfe story ever
written.  Nero Wolfe is a good friend -- but it means that I read
Nero Wolfe mysteries with a very different attitude than I read a
new work by another author.  I re-read the Wolfe canon because I
want to find out what Archie and Wolfe are doing. I want to find out
what is going on with them in the same way that I phone up my father
periodically and find out what is going on with him.  I want to be
reminded of them.

Now, if Rex Stout hadn't been a fine writer, I don't think that the
Wolfe mysteries could have withstood the re-reading I have given
them.  But I think that Heinlein is a fine writer - and I couldn't
re-read the *Cat who Walks through Walls*.  It, sadly, was a
Funny-once, and not even all that Funny.  I didn't feel a need for a
blue-pencil on the second pass through *The Cat* I just didn't care.
Now, I would dismiss this as me just having a very bad day, but
other people have told me that they have had exactly the same
reaction.

When people simply cannot care about a character -- then the story
has not worked.  What I think distinguishes the latest Heinlein from
earlier Heinlein is a lack of characterisation.  Not only is there a
shortage of new characters, but the old ones are not as vivid as
they were the first time.  Right now I am terrified that Heinlein is
going to write another book about Mike.  Mike is an old friend.  I
don't want him to be weakened, lightened, and painted with pastel,
in the same way that Lazerous Long has been bleached out through the
last few Heinlein novels.  If you want to write about my friends,
fine, but for God's sake write *well* about them!

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura
toad@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 04:07:34 GMT
From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Fantasy vs science fiction

bjorn@alberta.UUCP (Bjorn R. Bjornsson) writes:
>Sheesh, ever read "Time Enough For Love", "Stranger in a Strange
>Land"?  I suggest you pick on smaller fry next time, even though
>Heinlein often recycles characters that I believe fit his
>philosophy of life.

I take this to mean that you haven't read certain of Heinlein's
recent books, which defined all of his books as accurate records of
alternate worlds, and were rather lacking in plotting in particular.
_Number_of_the_Beast_, for example. I've never seen a plot collapse
into chaos quite as much as that one did.

Yes, I really liked "Time Enough For Love" and "Stranger in a
Strange Land".  But not everything he writes is even close to those
standards.

Bob Myers

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 86 11:18:35 -0500
From: mike@nrl-ssd.arpa
Subject: Sequel to _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls_

Has anybody heard any reliable information about when Heinlein plans
to publish the sequel to this?? (If he dies before he wraps up the
the sequel, I'll kill him -:-:)

thanks!

Mike Stalnaker
mike@nrl-ssd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  8 Dec 1986 14:28:48-PST
From: mccutchen%pennsy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN
From: 289-1428)
Subject: Heinlein and Nuclear War

I would claim that Heinlein is more a Libertarian than a Fascist. I
cannot recall any of his stories where he supports a "The Leader"
philosophy. Remember that Fascism DEFINITELY does not support an
armed populus. Rather it supports the right of the STATE to use
force of arms for any reason against the citizen.  It claims that
the citizen has no right to ever use force against the state.  To
this end the modern LEFT is much more fascist than the modern RIGHT.
This was DDEs problem with the civil rights movement, especially in
Little Rock Ak.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 19:05:02 GMT
From: cpro!asgard@rutgers.rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner)
Subject: Re: Teleportation and lost socks

From: "Ira_Newman.ESCP8"@Xerox.COM
> Does anyone happen to remember the name of a short story printed
> in Analog or Azimov several years ago that explains the invention
> of teleportation by discovering why one sock of a pair gets lost
> in a washing machine.

Yes I remember it.  The story was "Washout" by Richard A. Brouse and
was printed in Analog in the Probability Zero column in March of
1984.

Sorry, but the sock was not just red, but a red-and-blue plaid.

J.R. Stoner
asgard@cpro.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 03:19:53 GMT
From: ukecc!vnend@rutgers.rutgers.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Teleportation and lost socks

Ira_Newman.ESCP8@Xerox.COM writes:
>Does anyone happen to remember the name of a short story printed in
>Analog or Azimov several years ago that explains the invention of
>teleportation by discovering why one sock of a pair gets lost in a
>washing machine.

   The socks bit does ring a very vague bell, but I'm afraid I can't
help you with that story. One that does come to mind was in the
March '77 Analog (Vol.97 no. 3). By Hayford Peirce, it is the fifth
or so story in the Chap Foey Rider series, this one entitled
"Children of Invention".  It explains why the children are never
there to help with the dishes...  Good luck finding the socks.

UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
CSNET:vnend@ecc.engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET (but only as a last resort)

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  2 Dec 86 23:25:52 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Main character dying

  In Niven and Pournelle's _Inferno_, the main character dies on the
third page.

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 86 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #407
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 407

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Time Travel (7 msgs) &
                       Physics (2 msgs) & Drinks in SF &
                       Convention Notice & A Christmas Poem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 14:34:42 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA>
Subject: Time Travel - what to take

    A little basic knowledge (in any one of several fields) should
be enough.  Invent refined sugar, chocolate candy, chocolate chips,
or -- **TOLL HOUSE COOKIES!!**, depending on the era you find
yourself in.  Knowing how to cook, preserve and treat food under
primitive conditions would be helpful in most any prior time period.

    Invent the sword, bow, crossbow, tempered steel, bullets,
rifling, dynamite, or anything else to help people kill people.
This sort of item has always been in demand.  Or armor, moats,
stockades, shields, whatever, to prevent the other guy from killing
you.  These are also in demand!

    Stake your claim in a place where diamonds, gold, oil, coal,
bronze or whatever appropriate material can be discovered.  Or on
land that will be good for farming or settling when the (insert
appropriate time period's word for pioneers) get there.  You could
trade for it, sell it, or get rich farming it.

    I agree with the idea of training in martial arts.  Remember,
the average person today is larger and stronger than most people in
previous times.  Judicious use of this training should enable
survival until your "inventiveness" makes use of force unnecessary.
The thoughts about being able to read and write in an illiterate
society make a lot of sense too.  How about inventing the alphabet?
Hot air balloons?  This is easy stuff!  Depending, again, on what
era you find yourself in.

    Should you be lucky(?) enough to land in "the modern age": Take
whatever work you can get, and buy IBM or other appropriate stocks!
Invest in things your previous knowledge gives you the advantage in.
Support Henry Ford, marry his ugly offspring (if he has any), etc.

    Gee (no, G*E)!  This has been fun, but enough is enough.  Next
subject: What if you were catapulted into the future?

Ron Singleton
rsingle@cct.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 86 03:11:28 GMT
From: lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen)
Subject: Re: Re: A new twist on the time travel q

markc@hp-pcd.UUCP (markc) writes:
>Gold and Aluminum?!  I can't wait to hear the reason for taking
>your jewelry and pie pans back to the middle ages!

   Well, the value of gold should be obvious...  However, a method
for extracting aluminum from the ore was not discovered until (I
believe) the late 19th century.  This is according to an article in
Analog a while back.  Sorry, I don't remember the issue the article
was in.

   So, assuming there is a want for aluminum, can you imagine the
value of a few ingots?  What would someone pay for an aluminum
sword?  What would someone pay for a decent set of aluminum armour?
Would you rather walk around w/ 30 pounds of armour or 10 pounds?
I'm not a metallurgist, so I have no real idea of how aluminum
compares to iron in holding an edge, tensile strength, or how
workable it is...  what I DO remember is that it is supposed to be
as 'strong' as steel, at 1/3 the weight.

Lewis R. Jansen
lrj@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 02:01:41 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Aluminum in the Middle Ages

lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen) writes:
>a method for extracting aluminum from the ore was not discovered
>until (I believe) the late 19th century.

To use a comparatively recent example: the Washington Monument was
capped with an expensive (for the time) metal, which was only to be
found in occasional small nuggets because nobody could figure out
how to extract it from ore.  The metal was aluminum.

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNET@Relay.CS.NET
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 22:14:05 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu (The Hero Discovered.)
Subject: Re: TIME TRAVEL

webb@webb.applicon.UUCP writes:
>labor of the type that employed so many people then.  However, the
>clerical skills most 20th century men and women are far superior to
>those possessed by your average 17th-18th century laborer.  As a
>result, there might be a position available in the court of a king
>or as an accountant or bookkeeper.  Even the simple mechanical
>devices that we all take for granted now, and could easily diagram
>or reproduce (given resoures) could be worth something 200-300
>years ago.  [list of objects].

Yes, clerical skills are useful -- IF you can write in baroque
script with quill and ink on parchment.  A neat, legible hand was
highly prized, and modern cursive doesn't make it.  I know, not all
writing samples of the 17th-18th centuries are marvels of
calligraphy (I'm doing my thesis on the 30 Years War, I am *quite*
familiar with letters of the time), but neither were they written by
people hired for their clerical skills.  Military communiques, for
instance, were often scrawled under less than ideal conditions.
Accounting, on the other hand, would be _very_ useful.  But remember
the language barrier -- would YOU hire a German who spoke no more
English than "Ver iss bat'room, please?" to keep your accounts and
write your business letters?  Think about it...

Love that time-travel,
Mirth.

PS BTW, role-playing games are wonderful ways to simulate survival
in the past (maybe not accurate, but fun).  After all, I gained my
interest in the 30YW because I (in a game) banged my head and woke
up in 1626, wearing soldier's clothes.  The fact that I am a fencer
and the GM is my instructor made the results a bit bloodier than is
truly likely, but nonetheless I got a thesis topic out of it.  Who
says RPGs are wastes of time?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 02:38:59 GMT
From: hpdsd!campbelr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Campbell)
Subject: What to take back in time

Maybe it is just a basic philosophy difference here, but when
talking about survival in the past, I think that this has gotten a
bit off track.  Most of the items listed are heavy and could easily
be noticed as weird.  Meek and light, simple and understandable seem
to me the way to go.

Knowledge is the best thing to take back.  Especially being able to
communicate to those around you.  You wouldn't need a weapon if you
first could make your talents known.  History texts and engineering
top the list next.  Highly recommended are "The Way Things Work"
parts one and two.  These won't do you much good if you do not
understand them however.  Explosives could be easily made, but I
think you could go a lot further with a knowledge of the history of
shipbuilding than you could as a warrior.  Even a single US Ranger
would run out of bullets.  If a weapon is needed, I would like to
take a compound bow with aluminum arrows.  But instead I would go
for a crossbow that looked old, but made the best that could be
made.

With a single chemistry book you could become rich in synthetic dyes
alone.

Bob Campbell
Hewlett Packard
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 05:31:26 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb)
Subject: Re: What to take back in time

For an excellent handling of this issue (well, not quite, but close
enough), try Jerry Pournelle's _Janissaries_ series.  There are two
out, the second with Roland Green, and there should be more
forthcoming, as soon as he stops writing all those computer columns.
:-)

Colin Plumb
ccplumb@watnot.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 16:02 EST
From: <DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: time travel question

Greetings and Salutations!

Here are some more thoughts about the survival of a time traveler.

A lot has been said about the quality of health in the past.  It is
true that surviving the "plague(s)" will be a major preoccupation
for our time traveler.  On the other hand, what just about anyone in
the 20th Century knows about health care could set them up fairly
well as a healer.  First, simply knowing how to clean wounds is a
big step forward in the medical profession.  So is sterilizing (as
much as is possible).  If you can remember what leaf quinine comes
from or where to get cocoa leafs from you could start a revolution
in drug treatment.  Other bits of healing knowledge that everyone
should know are mouth to mouth resuscitation (even if they can't
spell it), CPR (if they are all ready dead, banging on their chest
can't hurt!).  If I remember right, there was a Star Trek where Kirk
breathed life back into a little child and was then mistaken for a
God.

A second general area that could be useful is the use of the wheel
and of the lever.  It would depend on the general conditions and
materials available where ever you where dropped as to how it could
be used.  However, in some places a wheel barrow or a cart could
make alot of difference.  Same with water powered water wheels to
power generators, grind stones, ect.  Like I said, it would depend
on the materials and information available as well as the needs of
the people around you.

Which leads me to my third point.  Personally, the most important
thing that I would be bringing back with me is the scientific
method.  I may not know exactly how to figure something out,
however, through empirical trial and error and a lot of perspiration
and time, I can make something that will make life easier/better.

It is true that the biggest problems will be immediate survival,
both physically and socially.  Knowing how to avoid and not to
offend is vital.

Another example of this type of story, although with a much
different genesis is _The_Practice_Effect_ by David Brin (correct
attribution?).

I must say I had fun thinking about this one.  Great Question!

Live long and prosper,
Danny Choriki
Environmental Psychology Dept.
The Graduate School of the City Univ. of New York
BITNET:  DAC@CUNYVMS1 or NWS@CUNYVM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 21:37:36 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (L R Brothers)
Subject: escape-velocity

No, falling objects can't come anywhere near escape velocity -- ever
heard of friction? In fact, every medium has a maximum speed beyond
which it is essentially impossible to travel -- this is why bussard
ramjets don't work too well -- at plasma densities high enough to
support the drive, the maximum speed is too low for all the
relativistic effects to alter the perceived time-rate of the
astronatus on board.

Perhaps some aero-astro type out there knows what the maximum
velocity through the air at STP is?

Of course you can crock together situations where the above is not
quite true -- I imagine a falling black hole doesn't care too much
about atmospheric friction, for instance (but tidal effects, yes),
but I think falling iron rods would attain some maximum speed before
they came close to the ground. W

BTW, what is supposed to prevent the rods from vaporising on
re-entry?

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 86 00:21:18 EST
From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: basic physics

I am really getting tired of reading postings from people who think
that travelling faster than light will cause one to go back in time.
The fact is, no material object can travel faster than light.
Period.  It would indeed take an infinite amount of energy to even
accelerate a material object TO the speed of light, and this is
definitely impossible.  Even if one invokes some other dimension or
"hyperspace", there are still causality paradoxes.  Incidentally,
tachyons have never been shown to exist.  Somebody simply pointed
out that one could switch the signs on certain equations of
relativity and still have a consistent system.  And somebody else
dubbed HYPOTHETICAL particles that might have such properties
"tachyons".

Michael McClennen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 16:36:53 EST
From: Michael Laufer <mlaufer@cct.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Drinks in SF stories

Has anyone tried a NINE PLANETS?  This may be from an old Heinlein
story.  It had nine layers of different types of liquor.  Each layer
was ment to taste like the planet it represented.  Pluto first (icy
cool) to Mercury last (very hot).  It would be interesting to try
this but I think it was a VERY potent drink.

Michael Laufer
mlaufer@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 86 10:50:12 GMT
From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Splashdown in San Diego!

                        **** SPLASHDOWN ****

                           Guest of Honor
                            R.A. MacAvoy
      (Author of Tea With Black Dragon and Twisting the Rope!)

                         Fan Guest of Honor
                           Bill Hisggins
       (Our token MAD SCIENTIST from Chicago - see how mad!)

                 at ConQuistador IV : Feb 6-8 1987
           San Diego's Annula Science Fiction Convention
          Bahia Hotel, Mission Beach, San Diego California
             998 West Mission Bay Drive (619) 488-0551
              (Within splashing distance of Sea World)
                   The Site on ConQuistador II

PANELS-PROS-FANS-FILMS-MASQURADE-DEALERS-ART SHOW-AND MUCH MUCH
CRAZY MORE!

                        ConQuistador Address
                For Information or Pre-registration
         P.O. Box 15471, San Diego, Ca 92115 (619) 461-1917

                   Join us for fandom by the bay!
              ConQuistador IV - February 6th-8th 1987

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 86 15:53 PST
From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: The Very Last Christmas

   Twas the Night before Christmas -- The Very Last One
                            (Anon. 1986)

   'Twas the night before Christmas -- the very last one --
   When the blazing of lasers destroyed all our fun.

   Just as Santa had lifted off, driving his sleigh,
   A satellite spotted him making his way.

   The Star Wars Defense System -- Reagan's desire
   Was ready for action, and started to fire!

   The laser beams criss-crossed and lit up the sky
   Like a fireworks show on the Fourth of July.

   I'd just finished wrapping the last of the toys
   When out of my chimney there came a great noise.

   I looked to the fireplace, hoping to see
   St. Nick bringing presents for missus and me.

   But what I saw next was disturbing and shocking:
   A flaming red jacket setting fire to my stocking!

   Charred reindeer remains and a melted sleigh-bell;
   Outside burning toys like confetti they fell.

   So now you know, children, why Christmas is gone:
   The Star Wars computer had got something wrong.

   Only programmed for battle, it hadn't a heart;
   'Twas hardly a chance it would work from the start.

   It couldn't be tested, and no one could tell,
   If the crazy contraption would work very well.

   So after a trillion or two had been spent
   The system thought Santa a Red missle sent.

   So kids dry your tears now, and get off to bed,
   There won't be a Christmas -- since Santa is dead.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Dec 86 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #408
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 408

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Niven (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 86 21:24:49 GMT
From: argus!ken@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ng)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes:
>   He had to have stasis fields for "World of Ptaavs" so then he
> was stuck with those (though it's not clear why you can't make a
> hull out of stasis fields.  Perhaps you can't make one concave?)

I always thought it was because time slows down inside a stasis
field.  Therefore the naviagation equipment would not be able to
work inside of one.  And besides, a statis field is supposed to be
an almost perfect reflector.  Therefore one could not know the
status of the outside world from inside the ship.

Kenneth Ng
Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey  07102
uucp: !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken
      !psuvax1!cmcl2!ciap!andromeda!argus!ken
bitnet: ken@orion.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 01:52:17 GMT
From: argus!ken@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ng)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

jtk@mordor.ARPA (Jordan Kare) writes:
> Referring again to the Sea Statue (which presumably had concave
> surfaces) and the variable sword (which had a stasis field which
> turned on and off without including the handle, the user, etc.,
> and which could strike other variable swords without failing)

I presume the variable sword was the device Ptaavs was holding when
he was found (e.g. the stasis field was still on.).  I thought that
device worked by negating the polarity of an electron, which caused
any matter to fly apart.

Kenneth Ng
Post office: NJIT
             CCCC
             Newark
             New Jersey  07102
uucp:   !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken
        !psuvax1!cmcl2!ciap!andromeda!argus!ken
bitnet: ken@orion.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 22:41:27 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls)

Sure, a stasis field would (given the right circumstances and
implementations, which I won't bore you folks with -- after all,
those are being hashed over in the other articles on the subject
:-)) be a marvelous hull.  But what happens when the power fail?
Whoosh, there goes all the air through that cardboard you had as a
hull to give the stasis field shape...!  (This assumes the standard
human behavior of cost cutting.  Cardboard is cheaper than metal,
and the stasis field doesn't care what's inside it).

Mirth.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 20:30:28 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) writes:
>I presume the variable sword was the device Ptaavs was holding when
>he was found (e.g. the stasis field was still on.).  I thought that
>device worked by negating the polarity of an electron, which caused
>any matter to fly apart.

You are correct in all but names: Ptav (sp?) is the word for a
Powerless Thrint -- ANY Powerless Thrint.  And the device he was
holding was a digging tool, called -- called -- oh shoot.  Though I
have read all the Known Space books between 10 and 20 times (after
reading your mother's SF collection, your friends' SF collections,
your library's SF collection, etc., you start again.  And again.
And again), my memory for names is notoriously poor.  So I don't
remember the tool's name.

I do know, however, that a variable sword is a device which reels
out a wire to any length (hence 'variable') between 0 and about 10
feet, encasing said wire in a stasis field to make it rigid and
unbreakable (or is it non-stasised Sinclair Molecular Chain wire?  I
really have forgotten unforgivably much).  There is a small red ball
on the end of the wire to let the wielder -- and, inevitably,
his/her opponent(s) -- know where the 'blade' is.  You don't want to
cut something important like your own limbs, now do you?

Yours,
Mirth

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 00:00:24 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>Then of course, there's the superconducting cloth.
>>Room-temperature super- conductors are barely plausible; but
>>cloth???  Anything flexible enough to qualify as a "cloth" would
>>be too thin to handle the trick where they use a strip of cloth,
>>one end in a lake and the other hanging over the Slaver
>>sunflowers, to ``de-fang'' said sunflowers.
>
>Waitaminit.  Wasn't that a molecule-chain they used, as in Ye Olde
>Sinclair Molecule Chain--the strongest (at least, as of Gil
>Hamilton's time) piece of thread known to man--not a superconuctor?
>As I remember it, the 'chain was what held the night-making plates
>together. (For a while.)

NO! (twice) The Sinclair chain was used in conjunction with the
superconducting cloth to connect the rock to the plate.  The
Sinclair stuff was fried, but the superconductor lived on.  Also,
the stuff used to connect the plates was INFINITELY stronger than
the Sinclair chain.  The "shadow square wire" was very thin and
would cut whatever you wanted (except, apparently, _scrith_), while
Sinclair stuff needed to be encased in a stasis field to do so
(example: variable sword, same book).  They are obviously not the
same thing.

>>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down
>>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in
>>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip
>>plan to take over the galaxy.  (They would know the truth about
>>the Core explosion.)

Aside from the obvious (the protectors fled the core explosion),
they would not be a threat to either Slaver or tnuctip expansion.
As I see it, the Slavers could completely control a protector (it
did just fine on a whole city full of humans.  Assuming that we are
related to protectors, as shown in _Protector_ via Brennan, they
would easily control many protectors).  The tnuctip, on the other
hand, would not be expansionist.  We have nothing to indicate
expansionist tendencies in the tnuctip.  Rather, we see attempt by
the tnuctip to free themselves from Slaver domination.  Besides
this, the tnuctip were master biologists.  They bred biological
solutions to real problems (even to the point of the Bandersnatchi,
whose mind was not affected by Slavers).  I feel certain they would
outclass Protectors, who were such xenophobes that they exterminated
other species even before learning from them.  This would be a
tremendous handicap when fighting another race that is approximately
as intelligent.

>(BTW, does anyone know more about this "tnuctip plan" than I do?  I
>wasn't even sure these guys were still around,...)

Most certainly not, aside from their handiwork.  They were supposed
to have been destroyed at the same time as the Slavers, by whatever
tool they used to extinguish the Slaver threat.

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 86 19:03:34 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Ringworld)

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>Proving that we are related to chimpanzees does not prove that we
>evolved from them.  We don't have many examples of fossilized DNA
>so evolution is not proven by molecular biology.

We know, however, a great deal about how the genetic mechanism
works, both at the chromosome and at the gene level. As a
consequence we can say that two organisms that share 75% of their
genes are PROBABLY more closely related than two organisms that
share 50% of their genes. Most reputable scientists seldom claim to
have 'proven' anything; that isn't how science works.

We don't have many examples of fossilized human languages either,
but linguists can make some solid arguments on the relative
relatedness of living languages based on their common elements. It's
obvious, for example, that French is more closely related to Italian
than German is. We can't PROVE this, but anyone who'd deny the
reality of the relationship knows nothing about language.

>Natural selection and evolution is widely accepted mainly because
>there aren't many competing theorys which don't presuppose a
>guiding intelligence (a no-no in science.)

You can always presuppose a guiding intelligence to 'explain'
natural phenomenon. Doing so explains nothing. I can say until I'm
blue in the face that there's a big bearded god named Thor hiding up
in the rainclouds making thunder and lightning with a giant hammer
and there STILL won't be any such critter.

>The evidence for N.S. and Evolution is really rather scanty.  That
>is why there seems to be a major shake-up in the field every time a
>new fossil is discovered.

Funny, from my perspective the evidence for natural selection and
evolution seems to be overwhelming. And the discovery of a new
fossil hardly seems to cause a 'major shake-up' in the field. Maybe
you can explain why the evidence is scanty and provide us with some
examples of these 'major shake-ups.'

Natural selection and evolution fit our observations in the geologic
record, and discoveries in molecular biology over the last 30 years
have supported rather than conflicted with the notion that shifts
occurring in gene pools in response to environmental pressures cause
new species to evolve from old species. There are several places
where speciation seems to be occurring at a rapid rate NOW (the
pupfish in the American west is of great interest to evolutionists
for this reason, I think). The tragedy is that the rapid decimation
of species due to H. Sap's activities may very well make it
impossible for us to study these species before they become extinct.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 04:56:14 GMT
From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls)

mirth@reed.UUCP writes:
>But what happens when the power fail?  Whoosh, there goes all the
>air through that cardboard you had as a hull to give the stasis
>field shape...!  (This assumes the standard human behavior of cost
>cutting.  Cardboard is cheaper than metal, and the stasis field
>doesn't care what's inside it).

Well, since we've got the statis field wrapped around in a bubble
with an itty-bitty hole someplace, what you do is put the machinery
to run the thing inside of it.  Time slows down, power drain is cut,
and you've got a perpetual field.  You could probably run it off a
D-cell.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 86 15:57:25 GMT
From: nike!kaufman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls)

ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.edu.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>Well, since we've got the statis field wrapped around in a bubble
>with an itty-bitty hole someplace, what you do is put the machinery
>to run the thing inside of it.  Time slows down, power drain is
>cut, and you've got a perpetual field.  You could probably run it
>off a D-cell.

*I'd* like to think that the amount of power put into the field
generator is (exponentially?) proportional to the amount of time
dilation.  *If* this is true, then your scheme (cute as it may be)
shouldn't work.  As time dilates, the current drops, and, like my
three-year-old kid said to me just last week, "Gee, Dad, the power
of an electrical circuit equals the current times the voltage."  The
voltage may stay the same (*may*--I don't know that much about
stasis fields,...do you? ;-), but the current will drop.  Also, I'd
like to believe (tho' I have no proof) that you'd need a bigger
voltage, even at normal time (outside the ship).  On the other hand,
I ain't no physicist.  Is you?

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 00:45:50 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics

Recent discussion about errors in Ringworld remind me of an incident
which greatly impressed me (unfavorably) about Larry Niven.  At a
Westercon in Oakland, about 1975, Larry Niven was on a panel about
something-or-other, and in response to a question from the audience,
said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic empire?"  The
questioner said, "no. Why?"  "Because the phone numbers in the
transporter booths would have to be so long, that nobody could ever
dial them."  He said this in all seriousness.  The audience member
said, "but you could address every square meter of every planet
surface in the galaxy with just a few dozen digits."  Niven looked
at Jerry Pournelle, who was sitting in the audience, and asked, "is
that true?"  Dr. Pournelle looked pretty embarassed, his writing
partner showing such ignorance, as he said "yes."  "Oh," said Niven.

Now, what is remarkable about this, is the complete lack of
mathematical understanding on the part of Larry Niven.  This is a
person who has a degree in Physics, and yet he has absolutely no
feel for numbers!  I can forgive lack of specific knowledge, but one
should have a general feel for such things.

I am not as sure about this one, since I stopped reading it after 30
pages or so, but I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude in The
Integral Trees.  These trees are floating around in orbit, see, so
people floating around next them just float there.  But if the
people are standing on the tree then the tree's gravity holds them
there.  At least that's the way I remember it.  The whole situation
was just too stupid to be believed, so I rejected the book.

John Oswalt
..!hplabs!ridge!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 86 08:18 EST
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Evolution, Luck & Niven

Remember, evolution doesn't always maximize the survival of the
individual.  It's the >species< that always gets the goodies.  Maybe
we're a lucky species.  Hell, the more you think about it...
Anyway, it seems the puppeteers really were selecting for lucky
individuals; ones who would win out in competition against other
humans.

As for it being too fast for evolution: Besides the arguments about
the efficiency of selective breeding, consider that evolution is a
random process.  And Luck is, well, lucky.  It wouldn't exactly be
lucky for Luck to take a long time evolving, what with a shock wave
coming, now would it?

It seems that if you're going to let Niven get away with Luck as a
Phenomenon (and you hard-hard-core SF dogmatists are SUCH bores),
you really can't rationally twit him on anything so
non-deterministic as Evolution.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 03:29:03 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls)

ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.edu.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>Well, since we've got the statis field wrapped around in a bubble
>with an itty-bitty hole someplace, what you do is put the machinery
>to run the thing inside of it.  Time slows down, power drain is
>cut, and you've got a perpetual field.  You could probably run it
>off a D-cell.

   That's not a problem. Setting one up and powering it isn't hard
given the technology. Note that the stasis fields surviving from the
Slaver Era have been on for what? A billion years or so? Powering
they is easy. One of the bugs I have with Ringworld is how did they
get the field around Liar OFF? Their sensors (and everything else
outside the GP hull) were vaporized. How did the ship know it was
safe to turn off the field? And again when it crashed into
Ringworld. But hey, it was fun and I don't really care.

   But I do wonder.

UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
CSNET:vnend@ecc.engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Dec 86 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #409
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 409

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 86 02:38:12 GMT
From: shuju@videovax.Tek.COM (Burgess)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review (art or propaganda)

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>I think that what you have hit upon is the difference between
>``art'' and ``propeganda''.  If you take an art form and use it to
>grind your own axe, you are writing propeganda.

Do you consider Picasso's "Guernica" (sp?) to be political
propaganda?  I think of propaganda as a piece of work (whether is
writing, painting, film, or any other medium) which was designed
SOLELY for the purpose of indoctrinating the people that it reaches.
With your definition of 'propaganda', I think it would be very
difficult for most artists to express themselves without producing
'propaganda'.

>And most of these ideas do not appear to me to be conceived as
>``hey, wouldn't it be neat if *this* character had *that* problem''
>but instead as ``wow, I'm going to write something which makes a
>strong political statement, and use all of these characters as
>metaphors for existing problems, and these places as symbols of
>these psychological disorders''.  Do you understand the difference?

Well, I think if I were to write something about a character who's
having a problem that I can not sympathize with, I'll produce
garbage.  (I might produce garbage anyway, but that's not the
point.)  I thought the first Golden Rule of writing is to write
about something that you know and care about.  An artist may overuse
symbolism as a tool, but I don't think one can write a good book,
paint a master piece, or make a classic film, without having some
feelings for the subject.  Of course the subjects do not have to be
political/social statements, but they are every bit as valid.

Shu-Ju Wang Burgess
UUCP: {ucbvax,allegra,uw-beaver,ihnp4}!tektronix!videovax!shuju

------------------------------

Date: Sun 7 Dec 86 17:24:24-CST
From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: TREK-4/ Answer(?) to why the probe

I would like to start by saying that this really was a pretty good
movie.  It was gut-busting funny in parts, and McCoy has some of his
best lines yet.  But I don't care what anyone will tell me, I STILL
liked TWoK(2) better. But enough.

The way I figured it was that the probe had been sending and
receiving messages to/from the whales, and when the messages
stopped, it came to check out the situation and see what was up.  In
fact, I thought they said that in the movie, or anyway, Spock
speculated as much.  But I've only seen it once, so maybe it's just
my projection.

Regards,

Bill Bohrer

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 86 23:47:28 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!fla7@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Flachsbart)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

The problem with the stated and discussed paradox is very simple: In
taking someone forwards in time there is no paradox. Their family
never existed, or was already born before they were taken forwards.
This implies that you couldn't take a person with children yet to be
born into the future.
     See an interesting story on the subject of time travel and
altering the past that I read somewhere. It was about a man who
tried to prevent the assass- ination of Abe Lincoln, but events
prevented it. Time is NOT mutable by this theory. (Also a Twilight
Zone episode with the professor from Gilligan's Island) I haven't
seen the movie (ST IV) so I don't know for sure if the girl in
question had more children in the twentieth century, but it is to be
assumed that she did not (*by this theory*)

Interested in replies!
yours,

Bill Flachsbart
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 01:23:51 GMT
From: dts@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Danny Sharpe)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

alan@cae780.UUCP (Alan M. Steinberg) writes:
>Gillian mentions at one point that she has "no one" in the 20th
>Century.  Read "no SO, no children, no family".  They may have run
>a computer check to find out that Gillian had no important
>descendents.  (The Vulcans did provide a full computer library.)
>Hence, no dent in the fabric of time.  The whales transported would
>have been shot dead, and their yield of a few perfume bottles would
>not have changed the future significantly.  In my books, it was a
>pretty safe move.

But recall from City on the Edge of Forever: McCoy prevented
what's-her-name from being killed, which let her found a powerful
peace movement, which delayed the US's entry in to WWII, which
allowed the Nazi's to finish their heavy water experiments and
develop the A-bomb first, which let them win the war.  Thus did he
change history.  Odds are, his saving her would not have been
documented in anybody's computer records.

Question: When Spock was playing back the recording of the time
portal's playback of Earth history, he stumbled across two newpaper
stories: one told of the death of what's-her-name, and the other,
from several years later, told of her meeting with the president.
These were from the two alternative histories, one with and one
without McCoy's intervention.  How did it happen that the playback
included both?

Danny Sharpe
School of ICS
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 02:55:34 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers

mirth@reed.UUCP writes:
>On the plus side, the Captain of the Saratoga is very competent, as
>is the Captain of the (unidentified, I believe) ship which is
>making a solar sail

   The other vessel (as will doubtlessly be posted several times)
was the Yorktown, a ship of the same class as the Reliant.

>to collect energy -- and one is a black woman while the other is an
>Indian man.  So this film is not all that deficient in the equality
>department; it just doesn't have a Ripley.
>
>[...]  It's just that by the 23rd C., 20th C. mannerisms will have
>vanished.

   Really? I don't know about that. And in any case, there is
sufficient precedent from the series and the movies that they most
definitely have NOT disappeared. A bigger meta-blooper is the fact
(if you want to stick with it being OUR EArth that they are
visiting) is that no-one had heard of Star Trek and the UFP or
phasors or... . I don't really count this as a bug, but it does
bother me when I see the parts with them walking in down town SF.

UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
CSNET:vnend@ecc.engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 17:16:09 GMT
From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

mirth@reed.UUCP writes:
>Just how DID that trash can, presumably blown by the downblast of
>the landing thrusters, manage to end up under the ship instead of
>at the clearing's edge?
>
>Think about it.

Okay, here goes -- it looked to me as if the thrusters pointed
outward somewhat, i.e.

              SHIP
    |_____________________|
        /             \
          1

if the trash can STARTS inboard of the thrusters, e.g. position 1
above, then the side-ways flow from the thrusters is toward the
center at 1.  once it moves to near the center, it will be
approximately balanced in the flow from all sides, and will tend to
stay there.  Along comes big flat Klingon foot.  Crunch.  Now it's a
gonna STAY there.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 86 02:23:12 GMT
From: dasys1!cforeman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charles F. Foreman)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers

mirth@reed.UUCP writes:
> On the plus side, the Captain of the Saratoga is very competent,
> as is the Captain of the (unidentified, I believe) ship which is
> making a solar sail to collect energy -- and one is a black woman
> while the other is an Indian man.  So this film is not all that
> deficient in the equality department; it just doesn't have a
> Ripley.

*** FLAME ON ***

Ok.. enough is enough. I've been catching up with some of the
postings on this newsgroup and I've seen TOO many messages about
Starfleet bringing back the Constitution class ship just for our
saviour Jimmy Boy.  The key fact that is obvious slipping by all of
you folks is that the ship which makes the makeshift solar sail was
NOT unidentified. It was..  you guessed it.. a Constitution class
ship! It was the U.S.S. YORKTOWN, NCC-1704 (construction of which
was authorized by the original Articles of the Federation on
stardate 0965.)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 10:16:22 EST
From: weltyc%cieunix@CSV.RPI.EDU (Christopher A. Welty)
Subject: Star Trek IV

   Well, I think SOMEONE should represent the other side of the
issue.  I saw the latest Star Trek on opening day in NY (the day
before Thanksgiving - can you say CROWDED?) on a big 70mm with real
nice sound all around.  So my viewing environment couldn't have been
better.  I (I don't claim to be unique) had been waiting for this
movie for a long time, I made sure not to see any spoilers,
commercials, or clips to ruin anything.
   My true feelings about the whole thing were mixed, I would have
to say it was stupid but enjoyable.  How anyone could think that
story was good is beyond me.  I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue, the
interactions between characters, the special effects (with a few
exceptions), and the comedic aspect.  But the story was STUPID.  So
stupid that it enraged me, and I'm trying to ebb that anger now so I
won't get floods of mail from save-the-whales-mamby-pamby-wimpy type
story lovers.  I'm not an advocate of whale hunting, or hunting at
all for that matter, but I thought the story was pathetic - the
ending, especially.  It was such a happy-ending-and-the-world-is-
great-and-fine-and-dandy-and-isn't-life-wonderful-and-lets-all-
rejoice type story I was (and am) wondering if they consulted with
the LOVE BOAT writing staff to optomize the happiness of the ending!
Where was Julie and Gopher?  THE %#$@&*#$! story was IDIOTIC!!!!!
Have I said that enough?  OK.  Some people pay shrinks a couple
hundred bucks just to be able to rant and rave like that...*whew*,
now I feel better.  I still think The Wrath of Khan was the best
one.

A much calmer,
Chris Welty

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 17:41:15 GMT
From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:
> Boo, hiss. The book is the book, and the movie is the movie. If
> one is needed for the other to make sense, then someone fell down
> on the job. Since the movie did not make clear why the thingie
> from outer space was destroying human civilization on earth, the
> moviegoer has to find his own answer. Saying "the book gives the
> answers" is a cop-out. (And, I suspect, just what the publishing
> people want us to do).

Quite true. Unfortunately, it happens a lot, look back to "Alien".
In the movie, [female lead character, I forget her name] discovers
something that causes her to activate the ship's self-destruct. In
the movie, all you see is an out-of-focus shot of a bloody arm.
Doesn't seem like much. If you read the book, you discover that what
she saw was the missing crew members acting as food for the
developing next-generation of the monsters. I understand that that
shot was in the movie but ended up on the cutting room floor.

Oh well.

Ted Marshall @ Britton Lee, Inc.
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 13:40:51 PST
From: dbj@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (David B. Jemison)
Subject: Star Trek IV - Nurse Chapel

     I have now seen ST4 twice (agreeing with almost everyone that
it is by far the best st movie).  While watching the opening credits
the second time, I noticed a "Commander (?) Chapel" with (I thought)
the same actress who played Nurse Chapel in the series.  However,
neither my friend or I remembered seeing her in the movie.  Does
anyone know where she appeared, or did I just imagine it (my friend
noticed it also)?

Dave Jemison

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 86 23:00 PST
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
Subject: STAR TREK IV and GREENPEACE

I just had a thought...perhaps my last one for 1986.  I think
GREENPEACE ought to try to by the rights to the one frame in the
movie where the Klingon ship is right above the Whaling Whessl (as
Chekov would say!).  I still get a big smile on my face when I think
of that image...the ultimate protection of the whales.  I am sure
that an appropriate caption could be added to the photo.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 10:03:14 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: STAR TREK IV
From: "Ira_Newman.ESCP8"@Xerox.COM

I was wondering if any biology/ecology types might have any insight
into whether the ecological system of the 23rd century would support
a couple of humpback whales.  With their extinction, would their
food supplies, etc. necessarily still be available?

Ira Newman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 10:30 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek IV

Cotton candy.  It tasted sweet, but had little substance.  It was
fun; a taste treat, especially for those with a big sweet tooth.  My
own tolerance for sweets is limited.

Lots of the questions raised on the net are good ones.  For another,
okay, forget the probe: how does Uhura pick up whale song?  The
whales are in the ocean, the ship is in space, and there's no
transmitter, right?  Somehow, the ship is detecting sound waves?
All I get from fellow fans is, "Well, this is the 23rd century.
Science used to say it was impossible to go over 20 miles an hour."
Etc. Etc. *argh*

I admit, a lot of my response to the movies has to do with my love
of the series and the passage of time since I first saw it.  As a
teenager, ST's occasional preachiness never bothered me: sometimes
I didn't get the message and other times I was delighted with the
"liberal" messages "snuck" in.  Now, a movie hollering "Save the
Whales" really annoys me.

Perhaps what bothers me most about the movies is the shift I see
from the logical to the emotional.  In the series, Spock was
Logical, trying to hide or at least control his emotional half.  In
most of the movies, he's busy seeking it out.  And when he's not,
everyone's shaking their heads over him.

In the series, there always seemed to be some attempt to understand
what was going on (a difference between ST and Space:1999, too.  How
often does ST end with a bridge scene where they're speculating on
what happened?  How often does Space:1999 end with a Mission Control
scene where they say, "Wow, wasn't that amazing and beyond
comprehension"?).  The movies seem much more emotional: let's cry
over Spock and Enteprise and maybe even David, let's have compasion
for the whales.  Well, we can't really understand V'Ger, Genesis,
Time Travel or the Alien Probe because we're from the 20th century.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 17:34:32 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Spock

Did anyone else notice that his voice is back to normal, instead of
using the artificial (Vulcan) intonation from TWOK?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 17:32:03 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Music in STIV

Someone was commenting on the music in the movie. A friend of mine
called it "Wild West music", or something to that effect. GR called
Star Trek "Wagon Train to the stars", and he told the composers to
"give him CAPTAIN BLOOD." Do I detect a return to the original in
the music as well as the acting?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Dec 86 0920-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #410
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 410

Today's Topics:

           Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Blish & Dick & Pohl &
                   Spiegleman & Van Vogt & Blood of Ten Chiefs &
                   Story Requests (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 86 14:47:45 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

P5S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>> In the first book, the Earth gets destroyed right off the bat.
>> In the fourth book, it's back. Did Adams ever explain this
>> properly?
>I'm not positive, but I thought that the mice (or somebody) merely
>recommisioned it's creation (I can see the Fundamentalists up in
>arms already :-) ) ...

Well, yes, but the re-commisioning was stopped half-way through.  It
was actually the dolphins who re-created it as a sentimental gesture
to all the humans they'd trained.  (So Long & al.)

>  Oh, and about Zaphod's extra complement of limbs and such: I am
>pretty sure that one of the books said that he had them surgically
>added.

That's what he told Ford when he picked up F & A on the Heart of
Gold.  When was the last time y o u believed someone like Zaphod
Beeblebrox?

By the bye, in actual fact the radio show, television show, play,
record, books, and (rumoured) movie all had different plots.  This
was deliberate.  To drive us all up the walls.  That's perhaps the
whole point of the HHGttG: it's so delightfully and totally batty
and off-the-wall and meaningless.  Or something.  But DON'T PANIC.

Oh, there was a book issued that had the scripts of the radio series
(as ad-libbed).  That was the exception.

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1986 04:29 EST
From: Brent C J Britton  <Brent%Maine.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Trivia

watnot!javoskamp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Voskamp) writes:
>As I recall there where several songs that came out shortly after
>The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, performed by the actors from
>The series.  One that I can recall in particular is "Marvin, I love
>you" which features the voice of Marvin and possibly Trillian.
>Does anyone know of any other songs and where one might get a copy
>of them?  Thanks.

Some of the HHGttG television episodes were aired on PBS here a few
years back.  I don't recall from the credits, but I believe that the
theme music used was some version of _Journey_of_the_Sourcerer_ by
the Eagles.

Brent C J Britton
Brent@Maine.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 19:33 CST
From: "David S. Cargo" <DSCargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: In Joke Question (BLACK EASTER)

The following is extracted from the Dell edition of BLACK EASTER by
James Blish (Dell 0653, First Dell printing July 1969, pages
123-124).  The names are those of white magicians answering a
summons of some urgency.

> Luckily, Father Uccello had been able to come.  So had Father
> Montieth, a venerable master of a great horde of creative (though
> often ineffectual) spirits of the cislunar sphere; Father Boucher,
> who had commerce with some intellect of the recent past that was
> neither a mortal nor a Power, a commerce bearing all the earmarks
> of necromancy and yet was not; Father Vance, in whose mind floated
> visions of magics that would not be comprehensible, let alone
> practicable, for millions of years to come; Father Anson, a
> brusque engineer type who specialized in unclouding the minds of
> politicians; Father Selahny, a terrifying kabalist who spoke in
> parables and of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had
> understood his counsel; Father Rosenblum, a dour, bear-like man
> who tersely predicted disasters and was always right about them;
> Father Atheling, a wall-eyed grimoiran who saw portents in parts
> of speach and lectured everyone in a tense nasal voice until the
> Director had to exile him to the library except when business was
> being conducted; and a gaggle of lesser men, and their
> apprentices.

It seems relatively clear to me that the Vance referred to is Jack
Vance, and that Anson is Robert Anson Heinlein.  Boucher is probably
Anthony Boucher.  What I would like to know, is who is being
referenced by the other names.  Are there any other writers buried
in there?  And if so, and for Boucher, just what aspect of their
works are being referred to?  I found BLACK EASTER to be very
interesting reading, especially the Author's Note in the front.  I
don't see this kind of throw-away in-joke all that often, so I would
like to know what this one is all about.

David S. Cargo
DSCargo at HI-Multics

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 15:18 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: P.K. Dick Biography

Has anyone heard about - I'm serious - a biography of Phillip K.
Dick that was recently done by underground cartoonist Robert Crumb?
I only heard about this second hand through the P.K.D. Society
newsletter.  It sounds like a bizarre enough little oddity, that I'd
like to get it, especially considering my fondness for Crumb's work.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 19:51:27 -0500
From: Frank Hollander <hollande@dewey.udel.EDU>
Subject: Philip K. Dick's death

Philip K. Dick died in the spring of 1982 from a stroke (or
complications from one).  His health was never very good and he did
not take very good care of himself either.  Regardless, his death
was sudden, and a great loss to the sf community.

The boom in PKD publishing continues.  THE COLLECTED STORIES OF
PHILIP K. DICK is scheduled to appear early next year in a set of
five volumns from Underwood/Miller.  This contains ALL of PKD's
short fiction (most of which was published early in his career).
Also, there are a few items published for the first time and plenty
of material that has not yet been reprinted.  PKD wrote a number of
"mainstream" novels early in his career that were not published.
Most have survived and a few have been published since his death.
HUMPTY DUMPTY IN OAKLAND was published recently in England, and
another "mainstream" novel is scheduled for mass-market publication
in the U.S in the spring.  There will then be only 3 known PKD
manuscripts for novels awaiting publication.  These are likely to
appear by the end of the decade.

For anyone interested in reading PKD for the first time, I recommend
the novels that have been reprinted by DAW in the last few years
(and are probably available in bookstores if you're willing to
explore).  Donald Wollheim published most of PKD's early novels
during the late 50's while at Ace books.  The DAW books represent a
good selection of PKD books.  UBIK is a personal favorite.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 18:32:53 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics

This is even worse than Larry Niven's ignorance.  In "The Gold at
the Starbow's End" , first printed in Analog, March 1972 (which
thereby casts doubts on Ben Bova's mathematical knowledge), and
reprinted in Pohl's collection of the same name, we find this:

"Godelized language.  A system of encoding any message of any kind
as a single very large number.  The message is first written out in
clear language and then encoded as bases and exponents.  Each letter
of the message is represented in order by the natural order of
primes -- that is, the first letter is represented by the base 2,
the second by base 3, the third by base 5, then 7, 11, 13, 17, etc.
The identity of the letter occupying that position in the message is
given by the exponent: simply, the exponent 1 meaning that the
letter in that position is an A, the exponent 2 meaning that it is
B, 3 a C, etc.  The message as a whole is then rendered as the
product of all the bases and exponents.  Example.  The word "cab"
can thus be represented as

 3    1    2
2 x 3  x 5, or 600. (=8x3x25.)  The name "Abe" would be represented

                          1   2    5
by the number 56,250, or 2 x 3  x 5.  (=2x9x3125.)  A sentence like
'John lives.' would be represented by the product of the following

        10   15   8    14    0     12     9     22     5     19    27
terms: 2  x 3  x 5  x 7  x 11  x 13   x 17  x 19   x 23  x 29   x 31

(in which the exponent '0' has been reserved for a space and the
exponent '27' has been arbitrarily assigned to indicate a full
stop).  As can be seen, the Godelized form for even a short message
involves a very large number, although such numbers may be
transmitted quite compactly in the form of a sum of bases and
exponents.  The example transmitted by the Constitution is estimated
to equal the contents of a standard unabridged dictionary."

This number was given a little earler in the story:

    354     852     2008   47    9606   88
1973   + 331    + 17    + 5   + 3    + 2   take away 78.

This is another situation where a basic feel for numbers (or just
common sense) will immediately spot the flaw: how can you represent
several million characters of information with about 50?  (Using a
more limited character set, yet.)  By taking advantage of the
redundancy in dictionaries, you could probably reduce the number of
characters by a factor of 100, maybe even 1000, but a million? Gimme
a break.  In the example above the number expressed as a sum is
clearly nowhere near big enough to express the product of several
million different primes.

Besides this, which requires some understanding (though not much),
Pohl doesn't even seem to know that anything to the 0th power is 1,
so his spaces go away.

"The Gold At The Starbow's End," Copyright 1972 by the Conde Nast
Publications, Inc.  The collection "The Gold At The Starbow's End,"
Copyright 1972 by Frederik Pohl.

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 15:18 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: P.K. Dick Biography

Although it is only very very arguably fantasy, I cannot praise Art
Spiegleman's 'Maus' highly enough.  It is basically the story of the
holocaust told through the point of view of animals.  The Jews are
mice, the Germans are cats.  Although only tenuously fantasy, it is
brutally honest and very moving.  Another point of interest is that
Spiegleman is apparently attempting to sue Steven Spielberg whose
'An American Tail' bears more than a passing resemblance to 'Maus',
albeit without the latter's frank brutality.  Further proof that
Steven Spielberg is slowly but surely killing originality in the
American Cinema.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 18:46:02 GMT
From: iwm@doc.ic.ac.uk (Ian W Moor)
Subject: Re: Earth's one immortal man

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
> A couple of days ago I got into a discussion with someone about
>the "Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. VanGoght (sp?) and I was
>reminded about a mysterious character who was never explained.  He
>was only called Earth's one immortal man or something like that.  I
>believe it also said he founded the Weapon Shops.  Was this
>character ever developed in any other book or was he just a plot
>coupon?

There is a second book "The Weapon Makers of Isher" which develops
and explains (sort of) the immortal. I am sure I saw a novella or
short story based on the first book, then the first book, then the
second. I dont know if the story came before or after the first
book, but I should read both books as well as the story.

Ian W Moor
UUCP: seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!iwm
ARPA: iwm%icdoc@ucl
Department of Computing
Imperial College.
180 Queensgate
London SW7 Uk.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 86 05:40:34 GMT
From: kathyli@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li)
Subject: Blood of Ten Chiefs, Vol. I : A Review

_Blood_Of_Ten_Chiefs_Vol._I_ put out by Tor.  Edited by Robert and
Lynn Asprin, and Richard and Wendy Pini.  Stories by : Lynn Abbey,
Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Diane Carey, C.J. Cherryh, Mark C.
Perry, Richard Pini, Nancy Springer, Allen L. Wold, Janny Wurts, and
Diana L. Paxon.

This joint Thieves-World/Elfquest undertaking has come out from Tor
in trade paperback size, with various writers undertaking to write
within the Elfquest universe in Thieves World shared-universe style.
It works, after a fashion.

The Elfquest world was introduced in the black and white WaRP (Now
WaRP/Apple) comics which were reprinted in color volumes and in
four-color comics.  One of the main characters of the series, Cutter
is also known as The Blood of Ten Chiefs, being the eleventh chief
of his elven tribe.  His adventures are well chronicled by Wendy and
Richard Pini in the original comics series (as well as the new
series now being put out by WaRP/Apple).  His ten ancestors played
no great role in the series, but were named, and writers have itched
to tell their stories as well.  The result is Blood_Of_Ten_Chiefs, a
collection of ten short stories, one for each of Cutter's forebears.

All of the stories are satisfying, but tend not to be overly
creative.  The structure imposed upon the writers have limited them
in certain ways, and they haven't yet learned to work well within
it.  The stories are hampered by this.

I also have a few personal quibbles with the interpretaion of the
World of Two Moons by a few of the writers, rather like when I'm
reading Star Trek novels.  I mean, no one mentions trolls anywhere,
EVERYONE's Recognizing with the wrong people, and I don't care if
Piers Anthony is supposed to be good, Prunepit is no name for a
Wolfrider, and Wendy didn't draw any illustrations!!  :)

Despite all of this, the stories, on the whole, are good.  Lynn
Abbey's and Nancy Springer's were my favorites.

If you are an Elfquest-fanatic, this book is probably a must buy.
If you are a Thieves' World fanatic (of the series as it NOW stands)
you'll probably also like this--after you've read the Elfquest
comics.  For the rest of you, however, it's something to look
into...when it comes out in pocketsize.

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 86 00:16:43 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Story request -- Gift shop

   I read a short story over 10 years ago -- can anyone identify it?
I will try to describe it with a minimal number of spoilers.

   A man discovers a gift shop he has never seen before.  However,
it is really a Gift shop (capital "G"), and the Gifts you receive
are actually attributes bestowed upon you.
   The man wishes for the Gift of Rhyme.  Hereafter, everything he
says rhymes.  He is not so sure he likes this Gift, so he returns to
the shop and wishes for a second Gift (I don't remember what it is).
This second Gift turns out to be more a Curse than a Gift.
   I recall that he uses a very clever trick to rid himself of this
second Gift.  It seems that Gifts are not returnable: only
exchangeable....

   Can anyone tell me the title and author?  I really got spooked by
this tale.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Dec 86 23:01 EDT
From: KROVETZ%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: title request (children's sf)

I'm trying to find the name of a book I read about 20 years ago.  I
don't remember very much about it except that it's basically about a
kid who communicates with a girl on another planet.  I think he
communicated with her via a television set and that she was somehow
able to come to visit him.  The most striking thing I remember was
that the girl had black hair except in the front where it was
silver.  Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Thanks,
Bob
krovetz@umass.csnet
krovetz@umass.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Dec 86 0944-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #411
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 411

Today's Topics:

             Films - The Empire Strikes Back (2 msgs) &
                     Liquid Sky & Dune,
             Television - SF on TV & Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                     Star Blazers (2 msgs) & Dangermouse,
             Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 86 01:42:42 GMT
From: jc3b21!larry@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: Empire Strikes Back & Don Juan

I just finished watching 'The Empire Strikes Back' on cable (stop
that snickering back there) and it brought to mind a question that I
asked years ago and could never get any answer.

When Yoda was teaching Luke about 'The Force', he gave a little
soliloquy on the force as an 'ally'.  One of the things he said was
that we were all "...luminous beings...".

Both the words 'ally' and 'luminous being' brought back to mind a
set of books published in the '60s to 80's about a mexican brujo.
The set started with _Don Juan: A Yaqi Way of Knowledge_ and
continued for about six books (so far).  The gist of the series was
about Don Juan (a Yaqi indian) trying to teach a westerner to become
'A man of knowledge'.  Key to becoming such was gaining an 'ally'
(through means of Datura root and/or mushrooms) and learning to
'see' which involved seeing people as luminous eggs with many
tentacles of power.

These items seem awfully close for just an accident.  Does anyone
know if Lucas or others on the staff were guided by these books?

Lawrence F. Strickland
Dept. of Engineering Technology
St. Petersburg Jr. College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
Phone:  +1 813 341 4705
UUCP:  ...akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 86 14:49:23 GMT
From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Empire Strikes Back & Don Juan

larry@jc3b21.UUCP (Lawrence F. Strickland) writes:
>When Yoda was teaching Luke about 'The Force', he gave a little
>soliloquy on the force as an 'ally'.  One of the things he said was
>that we were all "...luminous beings...".
>
>Both the words 'ally' and 'luminous being' brought back to mind a
>set of books published in the '60s to 80's about a mexican brujo.
>The set started with _Don Juan: A Yaqi Way of Knowledge_ and
>continued for about six books (so far).  The gist of the series was
>about Don Juan (a Yaqi indian) trying to teach a westerner to
>become 'A man of knowledge'.  Key to becoming such was gaining an
>'ally' (through means of Datura root and/or mushrooms) and learning
>to 'see' which involved seeing people as luminous eggs with many
>tentacles of power.

That's "Yaqui" and Mexico is pretty far west in these here parts,
pard'ner.

But seriously, folks, it happens in Star Wars too -- when Obi Wan is
teaching Luke, he talks about the Force as "mumble mumble
interpenetrating everything mumble."  Luke says "then it controls
our actions?" and Kenobi says "yes, but it also obeys our commands."
Sorry I can't quote it precisely from memory, it's been a couple
years.  Anyway, that also is almost word for word something don Juan
says to that pig-headed anthropologist.

Ten years?  It can't be ten years... that'd make me

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 86 15:37 PDT
From: "R.G.GARGOVICH" <"FOLSM2::RGG%sc.intel.com"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: one you might not have seen...

   Ran across this vidio in the local gas station/vidio place.

                            "LIQUID SKY"

   The story is set in the punk society of New York city.  It is
about a punk girl who is a model and her roommate who is a drug
dealer and there friends. The SF comes in when an ET, that gains by
absorbing opium-like chemicals that are present during the human
orgasm, finds some fast food at our star's penthouse apartment. A
West-German scientist is hot on the trail of (the) 'ET', armed with
his telescope he hunts down the beast and tries to save the heroine.
(not heroin) This is not what you would call a skin flick, there is
no skin to speak of. There is however a lot of language and
pseudo-sex.  This isn't a GREAT flick but may be worth a buck or
two.  I can get more information if anyone is interested.

RGG

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 86 12:09:20 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Dune the movie

I'm fairly new to this game so no flames if this has come up before
(please!)

I heard a rumour somewhere that Dune the film, although cut down for
general release was also available to cons and the like complete
with the full plot done almost page by page. Is this true and has
anybody seen the film if it does exist?

I'm not knocking the released version it's just that you can't get
to much of a good thing.

Thanks in advance
Piers

PS I've just remembered in a book of Frank Herberts short stories
there was something in it on his views on the film, and in that he
mentioned that it might be released, full length as a mini series on
the box. True or just speculation?

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  4 Dec 1986 14:04:03-PST
From: mccutchen%nuhavn.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN
From: 289-1428)
Subject: SF on television

   There are two SF television shows that I haven't seen anyone
mention. One stared Andy Griffen (sp?) and was named something like
SALVAGE 7. The other was a Jack Webb production where they did
various UFO sightings (I don't remember the title, maybe PROJECT
BLUEBOOK)

Terry

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 86 21:43:25 GMT
From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)
Subject: David Gerrold on Star Trek: The Next Generation

Star Trek: The Next Generation:

David Gerrold was at LosCon, in LA, over Thanksgiving weekend to
talk about this new tv series. The following is a summary of what he
said.  It is reconstructed from memory, so trust me but not
implicitly. (Someone else who was there assures me I haven't made
any howlers.)

    Gerrold will be creative consultant as soon as they have a
production staff; they apparently can't have someone with that title
until they have a production staff, so currently he's just a
consultant. Gene Roddenbery is producing it; also associated with it
are two people who were closely associated with the original show, I
believe as producers or some such. I did not recognize their names,
and so don't remember them; several people in the audience appeared
pleased to hear their names mentioned, however. The show should be
on the air in fall 1987.  It is being done directly for syndication,
not for a network; this means that Paramount has direct control over
it instead of having to do whatever the network owning it wants, but
also means that they have to spend their own money instead of a
network's to make each episode.  The series will be offered first to
the stations which have carried the old Star Trek all these years,
as a sort of "thank you" to them.  Many may not be able to afford
it; Gerrold says that they will be able to buy the series with
commercial time, which Paramount will then turn around and sell, if
they can't come up with the cash.
     The new series will take place 150 years after the original
Enterprise's famous "five year mission". In fact, the ship will be
the Enterprise, NCC 1701-G, the seventh of that name. (Someone in
the audience pointed out that this would actually be the eighth,
since the first didn't have a letter after the number at all; she
was shouted down by cries of "Forget it, let him talk!") At the time
of the first Enterprise, four percent of the galaxy had been charted
(note that that's "charted", NOT "explored" or "visited".) 150 years
later, the Federation has charted nineteen percent of the galaxy.
That's an _astounding_ amount of space, folks, but still leaves
plenty of unknown territory.
     The seventh Enterprise is about twice the size of the original
Enterprise; when asked about the size of its crew, Gerrold repeated
this and said "so you figure it out."  The series is meant to be a
return to the original purpose of the five-year-mission. Gerrold
talked about many people, including some of the writers of the
original shows and many of the novels since then, having forgotten
that the Enterprise is not a military ship, but an exploratory
vessel.  The new series is meant to be a return to this.  Someone
asked if the ship would be a Star Fleet vessel; Gerrold answered
that it would be a Federation vessel. The questioner kept presssing
for details; would it be military or civilian? Gerrold's response
was, "Your thinking is locked into military and civilian.  Can't
there be another way?" This got a lot of applause. The ship will be
a scientific, exploratory vessel, he said. Certainly, when it is
needed there will be a clear chain of command, so that when
necessary the ship can react with military efficiency; but the ship
is a community, not a military ship.  Asked if that meant there
would be families and children aboard the ship, he did not answer
directly but said nothing to the contrary. One audience member asked
what sort of society sends children out to face that kind of danger;
other people pointed out that the ship is not meant to go looking
for trouble, and that the pioneers brought their children with them.
Gerrold echoed these comments. Asked if we would be seeing the
captain abandoning his ship every week, as Kirk was wont to do,
Gerrold answered that we would see a restructuring of the system and
that the question wouldn't apply.
     The series is still very much unformed. They have not yet
decided just who the main characters are.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 86 18:21:49 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Niven and Star Trek

In the animated season of Star Trek, there was an episode (I forget
the name) which used the Kzin. Were these the same beings that Niven
uses?

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 05:19:38 GMT
From: buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz)
Subject: Star Blazers Question

   Can anyone out there tell me if they've heard of a spoof of Star
Blazers, sometimes shown at cons, called "You Say Yamato"?

   A friend told me about it a few years ago, and I've been trying
to either find a copy, or someone else who knows of its existence.

   Any help would be appreciated.
   Thanx.

Elliott Buchholz
ARPA: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu
      buc@blue.rutgers.edu
Snail: RPO 4014
       CN 5063
       New Brunswick, NJ 08903

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 15:59:15 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Star Blazers Question

buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz) writes:
>   Can anyone out there tell me if they've heard of a spoof of Star
>Blazers, sometimes shown at cons, called "You Say Yamato"?
>
>   A friend told me about it a few years ago, and I've been trying
>to either find a copy, or someone else who knows of its existence.

Yeah, I've seen it.  It was done by Phil Foglio (What's New, Myth
Adventures, Buck Godot, and D'Arc Tangent) and Mike Smith (an East
Coast conventioneer-- did 'The Snit of Khan' (as in, 'walking off in
a snit') and (I think) 'Bambi meets Godzilla', and 'Bambi's
Revenge').

   [Floating off in space, Kodai trying to look like he's in control
   of the ship.  Then, this glitch got into the copy we had.  The
   tape resumed on the next scene, where the enemy (one or another
   Comet Empire) is attacking.]

  Kodai: "Where did they come from?!?"
  Officer: "Sir, they must have come in under the glitch!"

It was fabulous!  Unfortunately, I think you can only get a copy
from one of it's creators.  Oh, well, maybe Foglio will be in
town,...

Or, as always with Japanimation, you *can* check with the C/FO.
(You can email me for more info on the NYC chapter, if you want.)

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 09:22:02 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!tra4@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jonathan H. Traum)
Subject: Re: Dangermouse  (was Re: SF TV)

mike@rlvd.UUCP (Mike Woods) writes:
>Do you realise that here in Britain Dangermouse is screened at
>4:30pm on children's TV; oh the folly of it all! ITV actually think
>it's a programme for kiddies.

It is on in Chicago at 4 pm, also on children's TV, which wouldn't
be so bad, except for those HORRIBLE commercials. If you think
commercials are bad on adult television, you should take a look at
children's TV. It almost ruins the fun of watching Dangermouse, the
worlds greatest secret chicken, and his agenthearted assistant,
Penfold. (sorry. that should be "Dangermouse, the world's greatest
secret agent, and his chickenhearted assistant, Penfold.)

Jon Traum
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!tra4

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 23:09:43 GMT
From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH
Subject: Time TRavel

Folks,

The back and forth discussion of time travel fails to take into
consideration that the creature called man is a short lived
creature.  Yea, you can go back in time say 700 hundred years, take
with you the sum of the knowledge of the twentieth century.  But,
upon your death, say 40 to 50 years after your travel back you die
and take with the knowledge of the twentieth century.

The most logical idea is to travel to a region that is very open
development of your order.  If it looks like the students are
learning, go to a new geographical location of that time period and
do it all over again.  Do not teach your students/diciples
everything at once.

As the school has generation and generation of students have them go
forth and help their society.  By the time you have established ten
to twenty of the House of knowledge, return to your century and see
the fruits of the accomplishments.  If say you would start just
after the Ravaging of Europe by the Norseman fifty years apart - yet
give them a commen secret language - you would probally advance the
technological base of the human race twice-fold and also the
social/economical base as well.  Return to the twentieth century as
the direct descendant of the founder.  Include in all the orders
that the direct descendant will receive a portion of the monies
generated for the order.

In the twentieth century,you would be the most powerful person.
But, then again, what if you return to the home time and find out
the world had blown itself late in the nineteenth century - during
the reign of Napolean.

Things to teach your order

Medicine
Law
Econonics
Military Science
Chemistry
Bio-Chemistry
Botany
Astronomy
Philosophy
Oceanography
Navigation
Geology
Metallurgy
Cartography

This is what I would do if I could travel thru time...

John Hardesty
BBNCC, Hawaii
jhardest@ wheeler-emh

------------------------------

Date: Sat 13 Dec 86 21:53:17-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: re: Time Traveller's Kit

Several people have brought up the idea of modern medical knowledge.
Gee, don't you guys watch St. Elsewhere ? Patients still die ! Just
how good do you think you are at explaining that your magic doesn't
always work ?  Not to mention the jealousy of the local practioners,
who were usually also the local priests. All in all, I would rank
"being a doctor" with "shooting at passers-by" as a technique for
getting myself killed.

And for those who assume that they could profit from their efforts,
let me tell you about the "orrery". You see, there was this
inventor, and he built a clockwork model of the solar system. The
fourth Earl of Orrery saw it and told his friends about it. The name
of the inventor has been lost, because, you see, he wasn't a noble.
And just how long do you think there's been a patent office ?

Packing a kit bag for the future is a more nebulous proposition. I
recommend reading "Dr. Futurity", by Philip K. Dick ( Copyright 1960
by Ace Books; my copy is half of Ace Double D-421.) A
time-travelling doctor lands in the future - and in Chapter IV is
arrested for committing medicine.

Best to find a functional lucky charm, I guess ...

Don Lindsay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Dec 86 0959-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #412
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 412

Today's Topics:

                Books - McDevitt & Sagan (2 msgs) &
                        Sentient Computers (10 msgs) &
                        Post Holocaust Stories &
                        Main Characters Dying (2 msgs) &
                        Continuity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 86 23:35:31 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt

                 THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt
                             Ace, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Well, here we have another first novel by an author (who has
written some short fiction).  Like CONTACT, it deals with first
contact with alien intelligence.  (Terry Carr points out in his
introduction that McDevitt wrote THE HERCULES TEXT before CONTACT
was published.)  Like CONTACT, contact is first made via radio
messages.  Unlike CONTACT, deciphering the messages is done in a
most illogical fashion.

     Where Sagan concentrated on the scientific aspects of first
contact, McDevitt is more concerned with the social and political.
The political climate in THE HERCULES TEXT is more convincing than
in CONTACT, being set only a dozen years in the future (before the
Millenium).  (The only unrealistic touch is having a female
president, but then, who knows?)  In McDevitt's novel, the contents
of the message are a chip in the continuing East-West poker game.
The information being sent by the Altheans, rather than the
specifics that Sagan deals with, is more encyclopedic and, as with
all knowledge, carries with it responsibility.  Where Sagan's
characters are very trusting in following the Vegans' suggestions,
McDevitt's are far more suspicious, far more cautious, and far more
realistic.

     The political machinations form the major part of the novel and
the scientists are not as well drawn as in CONTACT.  Neither are the
religionists--I think Sagan shows a much better understanding of
them than McDevitt, who remembers the Book of Kells but forgets the
burning of the Mayan codas or the Incan quipus.  As with CONTACT,
THE HERCULES TEXT leaves one with the feeling that McDevitt had an
almost-great novel, but bobbled it at the end.  THE HERCULES TEXT is
disappointing only in that it could have been great, but instead is
"merely" very good.  McDevitt's handling of the background and
characters indicates that future works by him should be very good
indeed.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 86 23:34:05 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: CONTACT by Carl Sagan

                       CONTACT by Carl Sagan
                      Simon and Schuster, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Well, here we have a first novel by an author (who in this case
has written a fair amount of non-fiction).  If anyone should be able
to write a "first contact" novel showing realistic scientists, Carl
Sagan is that person.  And in fact he does a fairly good job.

     A message is discovered coming from Vega.  Sagan spends a lot
of time showing how the message would be deciphered in the classic
way: the transmission would consist of a number of ones and zeroes,
the number being the product of two prime numbers.  Therefore the
bits could be arranged in a rectangular matrix in only one way
(well, actually two, but it's easy enough to decide which one gives
useful information).  One wonders, though, if beings from another
star won't have some equally obvious (to them, at any rate) method
which baffles us entirely.

     Anyway, back to the novel.  While Sagan understands science, he
shows less comprehension of how politics works, and the political
scenario he paints is unlikely, to say the least.  His main
character, Eleanor Arroway, is vaguely reminiscent of Asimov's Susan
Calvin and somewhat stereotypical of female scientists (or perhaps
even scientists in general).  There is, of course, the convenient
financier to foot the bills for the contraption that the aliens want
us to build, etc.  In fact, there isn't much that new in this novel.
Even so, everything works together and keeps the reader moving right
along, until....

     Unfortunately, Sagan runs out of steam with his ideas of what
an actual meeting with aliens would be like.  What should be the
exciting culmination of the novel falls flat.  Perhaps it's just an
idea that has been done so dramatically in science fiction that a
more low-key portrayal seems mundane by comparison.  The
conclusion--almost an afterword, really--is clever, though the
characterization and motivation suffer badly in this section.

     All in all, not a bad novel, and certainly better than many of
Sagan's detractors would have predicted.  Sagan's nomination for the
J. W. Campbell Award for Most Promising New Writer was, however, a
bit much.  Call him rather a competent new writer.  (Hey, these
days, that's not such a bad thing!)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 86 04:52:08 GMT
From: kastin@husc4.harvard.edu (jonathan kastin)
Subject: Re: CONTACT by Carl Sagan

Just one comment to add about Sagan's _Contact_: it's cluttered with
reams of excess verbiage. I got the distinct impression that Sagan
was trying to impress his readers with his vocabulary. It got a bit
annoying at times.

I thought it was pretty good, though, and I liked the encounter with
the aliens.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 86 16:43:24 GMT
From: jkw@lanl.ARPA (Jay Wooten)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress
Subject: report)

>> One of the best sentient computer novels I've read is "Colossus:
>> The Forbin Project" by D.F. Jones.  It was written in the 60's
>> and was part of a trilogy.
>
> Nope.  That was the name of the movie.  I think the book was
> simply titled "Colossus", but I'll scrounge around on my
> bookshelves and see if I can find my copies.

I believe that there were also 2 sequels to Colossus.  In the first,
people managed to defeat Colussus only to find that Colussus had
been preparing to defend itself and the Earth from an alien
invasion.  The second was about overcoming the aliens.  My
recollections on these are pretty hazy and I don't recall titles.

Jay Wooten
Los Alamos
National Lab
jkw@lanl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 86 04:24:34 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress
Subject: report)

marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke) writes:
>> One of the best sentient computer novels I've read is "Colossus:
>> The Forbin Project" by D.F. Jones.  It was written in the 60's
>> and was part of a trilogy.
>
> Nope.  That was the name of the movie.  I think the book was
> simply titled "Colossus", but I'll scrounge around on my
> bookshelves and see if I can find my copies.

I sit here with a book that says on the binding
"COLOSSUS (THE FORBIN PROJECT) D.F.Jones"

on the front cover it says in a box COLOSSUS by D.F.Jones then below
it in much bigger letters THE FORBIN PROJECT

At least on the cover it is hard to tell what the title is, though
on the inside it is simply called COLOSSUS.  And the title of the
film was both COLOSSUS: THE FORBIN PROJECT and more simply THE
FORBIN PROJECT, depending on the release.  Actually, I think it was
TFB first and then C:TFB.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 86 23:33:48 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccdbryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (Colossus)

Actually, if I remember right it was just Colossus first (I think).
I read a copy of it back in '78 or something like that and I
remember it just as Colossus.  The other two were called (again, I
think) _The Fall of Colossus_ and _Colossus and the Crab_.

****SPOILER mildly****

In the _Fall_ Forbin and others end up crashing the computer with a
"what happens when an immovable object is struck by an unstopable
force" type of algorithm provided by a mysterious source from outer
space that in the last book turns out to be a computer similar to
Colossus in origin from Mars (original, huh).

Anyways, this is just from memory, so take it with a small grain of
salt.

By the way, has anyone else read _Lords of the Middle Dark_, Jack
Chalkers latest series?  It should go on this list of sentinent
comp. novels, although it is just 1 of many to come.  Not to spoil
this one, it is an interesting premise involving the computer take
over and returning Earth to primitive standing from which they try
to revolt.  Not too bad.

Bryan McDonald
Univ. of California @ Davis

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 12:00:15 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (progress
Subject: report)

SPOILER WARNING...

jkw@lanl.ARPA (Jay Wooten) writes:
>I believe that there were also 2 sequels to Colossus.  In the
>first, people managed to defeat Colussus only to find that Colussus
>had been preparing to defend itself and the Earth from an alien
>invasion.  The second was about overcoming the aliens.  My
>recollections on these are pretty hazy and I don't recall titles.

No. In the second book (The fall of Colossus), Colossus is switched
off with the help of the aliens. In the third book, (Collosus and
the crab), The aliens start to steal earth's atmosphere before
things get relly silly. In the end, Colossus is re-activated to
defeat the aliens and the message is delivered that Colossus is
needed to look after Humanity until Humanity is old and wise enough
to look after itself. The exact opposite point of view given to that
in the first book, and in the film.

Bob Gray

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 17:54:29 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels (Colossus)

ccdbryan@ucdavis.UUCP (Bryan McDonald) writes:
> Actually, if I remember right it was just Colossus first (I
> think).  I read a copy of it back in '78 or something like that
> and I remember it just as Colossus.

Absolutely.  It was first COLOSSUS.  Then the film was made called
THE FORBIN PROJECT.  Then a book tie-in was published and that is
the book I was describing.  The tie-in book just wanted the
potential buyer to be aware that the the book was associated with
the film.  It did not retitle the novel, but the cover was designed
to look much like the title was COLOSSUS (THE FORBIN PROJECT).  That
is how the original poster might have become confused as to the
actual title of the novel, an understandable mistake.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 86 22:32:45 GMT
From: usc-oberon!cochran@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Steve Cochran)
Subject: Re: Canonical list of sentient computer novels

There is also all of the "Robot" stories by Isaac Asimov (their
'positronic' brains seem to fit the definition of a sentient
computer), and the Minerva/Athene and the Dora computers in
Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love."

Steve Cochran
USC-IRIS

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 23:59:41 GMT
From: marc@hpltca.HP (Marc Clarke)
Subject: Re: Canonical sentient computer list

Have we mentioned Sabberhagen's (sp?) Berserkers, the sentient
computers programmed to destroy all life in the universe?

Marc Clarke
Hewlett-Packard
Loveland, Colorado

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 86 15:30:34 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Sentient Computers

Has anyone mentioned Multivac, from Asimov's "The Last Question"?
This computer eventually absorbed all intelligent life in the
universe and became God.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 86 19:05:01 EST
From: Jeremy Bornstein
Subject: Those Darn Sentient Computers Again

Has anyone read _Valisystem_A_, by Philip K. Dick?  I believe that
this is one of these novels-- although I'm not sure that the book
which was -supposed- to be called _Valisystem_A_ was actually
published (posthumously) with the title _Radio_Free_Albemuth_.  I
haven't actually read either of these, as I found myself a little
TOO transformed from a P.K.D. craze over the summer.  (I found
myself imagining alien Cthulhoid space ships landing on the roof of
my apartment building and coming down to GET ME IN THEIR SLAVERING
FANGS and make me work for the rest of my life as a therapist for
crazed coffee machines and 'stat machines, front doors, and the
like.)

No, I'm Really Perfectly Fine Tonight,
Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Dec 86 15:43:56 pst
From: Mark Redican <vallejo!mark@tsca.istc.sri.com>
To: vallejo!sf-lovers%red.rutgers.edu@tsca.istc.sri.com
Subject: Re: Sentient Computers

Here are two possible candidates for the list:

"Destination Void" by Frank Herbert : about the attempt to create a
partially organic computer.  It was very boring and I never finished
it.

"Cybernetic Samuri" by ?? : I saw this in the book store the other
day.  It's a story about a super-intelligent super-computer that
could take over the world if not restrained by the Samuri ethics
instilled into it by its creator.  Or something along those lines.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 86 23:29:58 GMT
From: mmintl!warrenm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Warren McAllister)
Subject: Re: TIME TRAVEL

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
>       For a good example of what it might be like, read "The
>Anubis Gates", by Tim Powers. In it an English Professor gets
>stranded in 19th Cen. London.  He survives, though it is as much by
>luck as anything else. It is a good read anyway you look at it
>though.

I must agree with D.W. James - "The Anubis Gates" was the best thing
I read last year...

By the way, on the continuing subject of Post Holocaust Novels, try
"Dinner at Deviant's Palace' also by Tim Powers

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Dec 86 09:47:24 PST
From: Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Dying main characters

In John Varley's trilogy about GAEA I believe the female lead
character dies off and is resurrected.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 11 Dec 1986 09:34:09-PST
From: lary%ssdevo.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Rowrbazzle!)
Subject: Re: main character dying

In "UBIK", by Philip K. Dick,

        **** SPOILER WARNING  ****

all (or almost all) of the main characters die about one-fourth of
the way into the book, it just takes them the rest of the book to
figure it out.

Also, in "Counter Clock World" by the same author one of the main
characters is dead at the beginning of the book, but since
biological time runs backwards throughout the book that may not
count.

Philip K. Dick himself, a main character in one of his own stories,
is now dead. I miss his stuff.....

Richie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 13:30 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: cohesive universes

   Heinlein and Asimov have made their stories fit into more
cohesive universes.  'Shared World' Anthologies seem to be getting
more popular.  What does this mean?  Why are SF and Fantasy authors
worshipping the idol of 'continuity'?  I have a theory.  It could be
that sf and fantasy authors are realizing what comics writers
figured out long ago, that you can sell more material by having it
all tie in together.  Fans are notorious continuity buffs.  Look at
the popularity of the series 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' and the
resulting 'History of the DC Universe'?  Today's writers both in
comics, and sf/fantasy are of the 'continuity generation' of
writers.  How long will it be before we see a little banner on the
cover of the latest SF paperback that touts the book as 'Heinlein
Tie-in'?
   Anyone have any comments on this obsession with continuity?

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Dec 86 1012-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #413
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 413

Today's Topics:

           Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 23:38:15 GMT
From: noao!stoner@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Stoner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers

cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes:
>and I've seen TOO many messages about Starfleet bringing back the
>Constitution class ship just for our saviour Jimmy Boy.  The key
>fact that is obvious slipping by all of you folks is that the ship
>which makes the makeshift solar sail was NOT unidentified. It was..
>you guessed it.. a Constitution class ship! It was the U.S.S.
>YORKTOWN, NCC-1704...

An interesting point. If I remember ST3 correctly, the <Enterprise>
was being retired because it was 'over 20 years old'. And think of
the pounding, battle damage, structural overstrain, and other
damaging acrobatics Kirk and Co. had put the ship through. Scotty
may be a miracle worker, but...

What's to say that Fleet Command hadn't looked at the latest
structural integrity scans of the Big E and said "Yuck--scrap
iron!"? Just because <Enterprise> is being retired doesn't
automatically mean the entire rest of the <Constitution II> class
has to be, too. Admittedly, Star Fleet Commander Morrow (in ST3) was
drooling over the <Excelsior> as being the 'wave of the future'...
but remember the <Wodin>, a DY-500 (nearly 2 centuries old) ore
freighter that the "Ultimate Computer" blew away in the TV series?
Star Fleet seems to keep useable ships on duty as long as they are
able.

Also remember that <Enterprise> was the first or second ship to
undergo the upgrade to <Constitution II> status (ST1)-- new warp
engines, exposed flux chamber through the engineering area, improved
bridge, etc. <Yorktown> was done later and therefore probably
improves on problems encountered in redoing <Enterprise> (think
about how the current US shuttles' framework and systems have been
greatly improved by the time of construction of <Atlantis>--totally
different heat-shielding material being the first example to mind).
<Yorktown> obviously is still on patrol and normal duty station, not
drifting in scrap orbit over San Francisco.

Jeff L. Stoner
{ihnp4, seismo, hao}!noao!stoner
Public Information Assistant
CompuServe 71535,2043; Source BDB 970

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 86 02:46:30 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

I don't see what the book has to do with it.  The movie was
advertised as a complete story in itself.  It wasn't a complete
story - the plot was based on unexplained and apparently arbitrary
events.  I could write a movie in which a 90-foot-tall giant comes
along and starts kicking through army bases demanding the rare alloy
mesopatamium, generating conflict for the characters to play
against, but this would not really be a plot; and neither was the
story of ST IV.

This whole bringing up of the book seems rather dunderheaded.  There
is no Star Trek world with its chronicles in books and movies.
There are only Star Trek stories.  Sometimes there are connections
between them, but each has to stand on its own as a story.  Another
Star Trek story could resolve a reasoning flaw in other ST stories,
such as why everyone looks human in most episodes being explained by
the episode with Sargon; but this cannot rectify *story* flaws in
other stories.

It also happened to be a great movie, for the reasons I already
stated.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 15:30:08 est
From: bhs@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Sobelman)
Subject: ST IV, what else?

***** I DARE SAY THERE WILL BE SPOILERS TO FOLLOW *****

To comment, or not to comment. (sigh) I know there must be boatloads
of mail coming in on the latest and greatest, but I can't resist
putting my two cents in (yes, we still use money here).

To join the general consensus, I loved it - as much the second time
as the first.  They finally seemed to be having fun again -
definitely much more like the old series episodes.

I just have a question or two to pose to the forum:

1.  I know there's some debate about the "thingee" (god, I love
    technical terms) and why it came to earth and all, but what I
    missed was how everybody knew right off the bat that it was a
    probe and not some new doomsday machine or weird ship or
    something.

2.  Does George Takei age, or was it just a good makeup job?

3.  Anybody know what the "Cetacean Institute" is in real life?
    I'm from northern Cal., but I can't think of any similar marine
    institute in the area (except Marine World/ Africa USA in
    Vallejo); then again, I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be
    anywhere near N. Cal., does it?

4.  What drugs were they on when they thought up the various
    extraterrestrials for the Federation Council?  (A friend
    suggests that they scouted at the bar from Star Wars. . .)

OK, enough for now.  Pardon me for avoiding the more serious and/or
technical issues everyone has been discussing (saving whales,
beaming into ships, male chauvinism, etc.) - I had too much fun with
it to want to analyze it that much.

I feel fine, too, Spock - thanks.

Bev Sobelman
bhs@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 17:19:53 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Equality in the 23rd century

On the face of it, there is equality. However, if you think about
it, Uhura is the only black character (not counting Lokai) who
doesn't have serious problems one way or another. Daystrom is a
computer genius, but we see him have a breakdown after designing an
apparently sentient computer that enjoys destruction (not death,
though). Captain Alexander of the Saratoga loses her ship in a
Kobayashi-like scenario. The Indian captain also loses his ship.
(No flames please, maybe they weren't "lost") I don't remember
M'Benga's episodes, which might be another indication... Harry
Morrow refuses to let Kirk go after Spock's _katra_ because "he
never understood Vulcan mysticism."  Am I reading too much into
this?

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 86 15:33:50 GMT
From: dasys1!cforeman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charles F. Foreman)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

   All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun speculating
about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing something
boring like reading the book and getting a definative answer. But
that's like trying to use a complex computer system without reading
the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the system and the
manual is the manual. You know what someone on the net would say on
comp.unix if you asked questions like this without reading the
manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king manual). Well, I say RTFB!
   Star Trek books have always gone into much more detail than the
movies. Like Sulu losing command of Excelsior in ST II.. like David
Marcus being in love with Saavik thru it all.. like Sulu meeting his
great-great-great grandfather in ST IV, and like a fuller
explanation of the probe.  I'll tell you why you don't get the full
story behind the probe in the movie. When's the last time you heard
the ramblings of a narrator in any ST production? The substitute for
that is the Captain's Log. Now, nobody knew anything about what the
probe was trying to do, except the probe. A Captain's log couldn't
explain it. You would have to have a narrator saying "The traveller
sang. Amid its complexities.."  Fine. But that's not Star Trek.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 23:01:01 GMT
From: vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes:
>All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun speculating
>about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing something
>boring like reading the book and getting a definative answer. But
>that's like trying to use a complex computer system without reading
>the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the system and the
>manual is the manual. You know what someone on the net would say on
>comp.unix if you asked questions like this without reading the
>manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king manual). Well, I say
>RTFB!

There are two interesting questions here.

1) Is the movie/book computer/manual analogy a good one? I do not
think so, for a variety of reasons. a) When you buy a computer, you
get the manuals. When you buy a movie ticket (or rent the tape),
nobody throws in the book. b) many great movies have been made based
on books, that didn't require you to read the book in order to enjoy
the movie. "To Kill A Mockingbird" comes to mind ("2001" does too,
but I expect some dweeb to tell me I couldn't have made full sense
of that movie without having read the story). c) I think movies tell
stories.  Suppose I was telling you a story about a space thingie
which mysteriously came to earth and started destroying things, and
you asked me why was it doing that?  If I said I'm not going to tell
you, you have to read my book explaining that, would I be telling
you a good story? I don't think so. If I gave you some hints and had
you think about it, and you came up with your own answers, and they
were reasonable, then I have done a much better job at storytelling.
d) The paperback is not likely to survive as long as the movie. How
many folks out there still have the Star Wars book? Do you think it
will be easy for someone renting the tape to get his hands on a
copy? If you think that is true now, how about 20 years from now?

2) Do good computer systems require manuals to operate? My Macintosh
doesn't.  The only manual I bothered even looking at was the one for
my C compiler. I just tried the rest out, and played around with it.
Televisions don't need manuals, why should computers, or for that
matter, movies?

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Dec 1986 09:51 CST
From: <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek IV

I've watched people post messages on the way that STIV presented the
issue of saving the whales.  I personally believe it is possible
that the it was NOT just the whales that they were presenting, but
all social issues.  I beleive they picked one of the most well known
issues to make a more general point about social issues: the
decisions that we make today may have a devastating effect on the
world of tomorrow.  This goes for almost all social issues, from
abortion to whales (couldn't think of a issue starting with a X,Y or
Z).

Ed Lorden

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 86 17:04:20 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>I don't see what the book has to do with it.  The movie was
>advertised as a complete story in itself.  It wasn't a complete
>story - the plot was based on unexplained and apparently arbitrary
>events.

'Unexplained'?  Yes.  But can't that be said about *any* movie?
Certainly, the people who made the Rama starship in "Rendevous with
Rama" were never explained.  Does that mean it's not a good book?
Or, stepping outside of sf for a second, how about those nights
where it just *has* to rain so the character can: a) get into a
crash; b) have that beautiful scene with the leading lady.

Sure, you can tell me, 'But that's a force of nature.  It rains all
the time."  But, I say the alien ship is *also* a force of nature.
Sometimes, things _just_happen_.

Now, if you said, "Why the hell does Kirk/Spock/McCoy do *that*?!?",
that I could empathize with you on.  A main character must never do
something unexplained. BUT, the ship isn't a character, it's a plot
device.  If any of the aliens appeared in the movie, if they got so
much as one word, THEN I'd want an explanation.

Look: IF you assume that there are some aliens out there that have
technology beyond our wildest dreams, AND that they're on speaking
terms with our fish for whatever their reasons, THEN, in the words
of Joe Jackson, "What makes you think they give a sh*t about you?
Who are you, anyway?"  Why would they even bother noticing us, much
less explaining themselves?

As far as I'm concerned, the movie *was* complete.  Sure, I want to
know the fish's angle in the Big Scheme of Things, but then, I don't
even know my own.  Why should I be allowed to know theirs?

>I could write a movie in which a 90-foot-tall giant comes along and
>starts kicking through army bases demanding the rare alloy
>mesopatamium, generating conflict for the characters to play
>against, but this would not really be a plot; and neither was the
>story of ST IV.

Ah, but the alien ship demanded *nothing* of us. It didn't say,
"Bring me your fish."  It didn't even acknowledge us.

>This whole bringing up of the book seems rather dunderheaded.
>There is no Star Trek world with its chronicles in books and
>movies.  There are only Star Trek stories.  Sometimes there are
>connections between them, but each has to stand on its own as a
>story.

THAT I can agree with.  But I think the movie *did* stand on it's
own.  In fact (Now, note: I haven't read the book, but) if the book
*does* explain the aliens, or even that little ball at the end of
the probe, I'd probably like it less for it.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious: that there are real and
practical reasons for not putting anything about the aliens in the
movie.  The first is time.  Read the book and tell me if you
finished it in two hours.  If it's worth reading, you probably
didn't.  The book format allows the writer to say things he just
plain doesn't have time for in a movie.

The second is that a movie, in the interest of the gibbering
hordes,..ahem, the average man, tends to focus on a single, small
group of people.  That's why Brunner's "The Sheep Look Up" and
Niven/Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer" will never be made into films.

For this movie, the focus is the ex-crew of the Enterprise.  Maybe,
somewhere, there's a bunch of aquatic aliens watching a movie about
"The Search For George and Gracie and their Unborn Pup", but I
wouldn't pay five bucks to see it.

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 18:58:42 GMT
From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

dts@gitpyr.UUCP (Danny Sharpe) writes:
>Question: When Spock was playing back the recording of the time
>portal's playback of Earth history, he stumbled across two newpaper
>stories: one told of the death of what's-her-name, and the other,
>from several years later, told of her meeting with the president.
>These were from the two alternative histories, one with and one
>without McCoy's intervention.  How did it happen that the playback
>included both?

Well, if this happened on the Guardian's planet, as I believe it
did, the playback could include both for the same reason that the
characters remained there when their civilization, the ship that had
gotten them there, and quite possibly their parents had just winked
out of existence or changed beyond recognition (the difference is
moot); namely, the Guardian's planet is somewhat immune to the
effects of the Guardian on history. But not completely, which is why
the new record is there too.

But really, let's face the fact that time-travel stories which allow
the possiblity of altering history are inherently contradictory.
There is NO WAY to get around the paradoxes, so just enjoy the story
and accept that it's all motivated by plot requirements, not logic.

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 86 0818-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #414
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Dec 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 414

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Niven (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 86 05:38:08 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Misunderstanding of my reference to tnuctipun and DIF

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down
>>>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in
>>>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip
>>>plan to take over the galaxy.  (They would know the truth about
>>>the Core explosion.)
>>
>>(BTW, does anyone know more about this "tnuctip plan" than I do?
>>I wasn't even sure these guys were still around,...)
>
> Most certainly not, aside from their handiwork.  They were
> supposed to have been destroyed at the same time as the Slavers,
> by whatever tool they used to extinguish the Slaver threat.

I was referring to a story outline by Larry Niven (DOWN IN FLAMES).
The title refers to what Niven does to our knowledge of the Known
Space universe...  The (real) background is that Niven decided that
there were too many inconsistencies creeping into his stories, and
decided to exploit them by turning the past history of Known Space
inside out.  He never wrote the actual story, and I don't know if he
ever intends to, but the outline was fun.  If anyone's interested, I
have it on tape somewhere.

[SPOILER, if you care!]

In DOWN IN FLAMES, it turns out that Kzanol is a "plant" made by the
tnuctipun, who want to hide the true facts about themselves.  (The
part about their being superb manipulators of genetics is correct,
though; Kzanol was engineered.)  It was primed with the story about
the thrintun and the (fake) tnuctipun and placed where humans (and,
via the humans, all other intelligent species) would find it.  As a
result, a false history was seeded.

The tnuctipun turn out to be the forefathers of the kzinti.  In
fact, there are tnuctipun "hiding" among the kzinti, and they
engineered the kzin-human wars (and their loss by the kzinti) to
make humans and others believe that the kzinti (and therefore the
tnuctipun among them) could not be a danger.  They started the story
of the core explosion and got the puppeteers' help in faking the
flight of the Long Shot (? -- I don't remember precisely), probably
in return for letting the puppeteers be.  Their intent was to lay in
wait as the inhabitants of the galaxy fled the "Core explosion" and
capture and enslave them as they tried to get out of the galaxy.
However, they slip up somewhere and Beowulf Shaeffer gets on their
tail.  (Larry Greenberg points out that the kzinti look an awful lot
like tnuctipun...)  The protectors are shown to be at least
partially dupes; Bey eats tree-of- life and becomes a protector.
(How old is he by now?)  The outline ends around there; discussion
of it, the puppeteers' involvement, its impact on the theory that
the Grogs are the descnedants of the thrintun, etc.  continued for a
month or so thereafter.  I don't have any of that saved, but ask
your friendly neighborhood SF-Lovers archive site...

Some possible endings were posted as well.  One of them was that
someone (Bey again?) decided to go see the truth about the galactic
core -- and, lo and behold, it was in fact exploding.  (Irony to
you, tnictipun!)

Note that this was merely a story outline; it was never turned into
a real story, it is not part of the "official" Known Space canon,
and it was by no means fully "debugged".  It *is* interesting,
however.

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St.
#A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm
..cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 86 15:14:17 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Integral Trees "mistake"

jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes:
> Recent discussion about errors in Ringworld remind me of an
> incident which greatly impressed me (unfavorably) about Larry
> Niven.  [example displaying "innumeracy" in guestimating teleport
> address codes]

Yes, a legitimate boner.  But the next example, intended to show how
REALLY stupid Niven is, just shows John wasn't paying attention:

> I am not as sure about this one, since I stopped reading it after
> 30 pages or so, but I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude
> in The Integral Trees.  These trees are floating around in orbit,
> see, so people floating around next them just float there.  But if
> the people are standing on the tree then the tree's gravity holds
> them there.

Oh, foo.  Easily within the first 30 pages it was explained that the
trees were tidally stabilized in their orbit, and that one, indeed,
floated next to the tree at the middle.  But at the ENDS of the
tree, one had to hang on, or the tides would fling one away.
Simple, straightforward, explained early on and easy to get used to.

> At least that's the way I remember it.  The whole situation was
> just too stupid to be believed, so I rejected the book.

Yeah.  Right.  Well I'll tell you what *I* reject!  I rej... (oh
what's the use?  GWSmith already pointed out that Niven ain't that
bad mistake-wise... he's about average for "hard sf" authors.)

But, some of the other corrections need correcting too, and I'm just
the fool to do it!  So onwards!

> ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith)
> Now, the tree is several kilometers long, so that either end of
> the tree is moving at a different speed from the center (since the
> trees were lined up radially.)

The force that throws one away from the ends of the trees indeed
incorporates a "centrifugal" component as tediously explained in the
late, unlamented "tides" discussion recently in sci.physics.  But
pointing out that the tree rotates isn't the best way to show that
one would be pulled from the ends of the tree.  The tree wouldn't
have to be spinning, or in orbit, or anything... one would STILL be
pulled by tides, which both try to pluck one from the ends of the
tree, and keep the tree stable and spinning synchronously to boot
(if it is in orbit).  Which brings us to another slight mistake:

> The atmosphere is also the reason why the trees are lined up
> radially, since the pressure on the ends is balanced when lined up
> radially (they would not line up radially in a vacumn).

Nonsense.  The atmosphere is trying to spin the trees in the
OPPOSITE direction they are actually spinning.  The tides hold the
trees stable AGAINST this wind, thus producing the "integral shape"
that gave the whole shooting match its name.  The trees would,
indeed, still be lined up radially in a vacuum.  (Of course, they'd
be dead in a vacuum, but that's another problem...)

> Therefore the gas further in is moving more quickly than the gas
> further our, which explains why the trees are radial to the mass
> they're orbiting around

Again, this doesn't explain it at all, since the tree, being
radially aligned, is moving more slowly close in than far out, the
opposite of what the atmosphere does.  The gravity gradient anchors
it in place AGAINST this wind.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 19:37:54 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

mirth@reed.UUCP (The Hero Discovered.) writes:
>ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) writes:
>>I presume the variable sword was the device Ptaavs was holding
>>when he was found (e.g. the stasis field was still on.).  I
>>thought that device worked by negating the polarity of an
>>electron, which caused any matter to fly apart.
>
>You are correct in all but names: Ptav (sp?) is the word for a
>Powerless Thrint -- ANY Powerless Thrint.  And the device he was
>holding was a digging tool, called -- called -- oh shoot.  [...] So
>I don't remember the tool's name.

   In reality (or should it be 'in SFity'? :-) the device he was
holding was indeed a digging tool, but it was NOT a variable sword.
It was the first (only?) working model of a slaver disintegrator
found. And it did (supposedly) work by negating the charge on the
electron. The puppeteers improved on it by designing a second model
that negated the charge on the proton. Remember, care had to be used
if both were used close together, as there could be current flow....
   And don't forget the Wunderland Peacemaker. It was a giant
disintegrator pretending to be a ship. It was used only once, it
destroyed the Kzinti outpost on Canyon (well, not really. The Kzinti
are still there, trapped in the stasis field that protectd them
originally from the Peacemaker, and then from the magma that washed
over their bubble.

>I do know, however, that a variable sword is a device which reels
>out a wire to any length (hence 'variable') between 0 and about 10
>feet, encasing said wire in a stasis field to make it rigid and
>unbreakable (or is it non-stasised Sinclair Molecular Chain wire?
>I really have forgotten unforgivably much).  There is a small red
>ball on the end of the wire to let the wielder -- and, inevitably,
>his/her opponent(s) -- know where the 'blade' is.  You don't want
>to cut something important like your own limbs, now do you?

   Correct, though the variable sword mode of the weapon in "The
Soft Weapon" had a much greater range than 10 feet. It was said that
variable swords used Sinclair monofilament enclosed in a stasis
field to give it rigidity. Doubtless non-human made models used
whatever the thinest, strongest conductive material the culture had.


   Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver disin-
tegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry at
Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him.

UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
CSNET:vnend@engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 86 20:11:08 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Ringworld implausibilities

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>BTW -- as far as the protectors go, I lump them in with the "down
>>in flames" outline posted a few months ago; protectors, being in
>>the center of the galaxy, might well be a danger to the tnuctip
>>plan to take over the galaxy.  (They would know the truth about
>>the Core explosion.)
>
>Aside from the obvious (the protectors fled the core explosion),
>they would not be a threat to either Slaver or tnuctip expansion.

   Especially since they didn't exist yet. The Slaver Era was
approx. 1 BILLION years ago. Even the puppeteer civilization is only
a little more than a million years old. The only sentient race
surviving the slavers (outside of being in a stasis field) is the
Frumious Bandersnatch. Remember, at the time of the Slaver Era,
Earth was a food planet, with oceans covered with food algea. Most
of the life on Earth EVOLVED from that algea.

>The tnuctip, on the other hand, would not be expansionist.  We have
>nothing to indicate expansionist tendencies in the tnuctip.
>Rather, we see attempt by the tnuctip to free themselves from
>Slaver domination.  Besides this, the tnuctip were master
>biologists.

   But we don't have any data to indicate that the tnuctip weren't
expansionist either. They could have been expanding when they found
the slavers or vive versa (It could be argued that SOMEBODY must
have found the slavers rather than the Slavers finding them. The one
example of the Slaver race that we met was none too bright. But if
they captured the secret of interstellar travel from some visitor
then it makes more sense.).  All we know is that the Tnuctip were
FAR cleverer than the Thrint.

>Most certainly not, aside from their handiwork.  They were supposed
>to have been destroyed at the same time as the Slavers, by whatever
>tool they used to extinguish the Slaver threat.

   The Tnuctip did NOT extinguish the Slaver threat. They WERE
winning the war. The Slavers dispaired and built a Galaxy blanketing
amplifier and destroyed all life in the galaxy that had a mind they
could control (it seems as though Bandersnatchi and plants were
immune). Either the weapon overpowered the other Slavers shields
and killed them too or the Slavers died out without their slave
races (I favor the second, else how did we get the Grogs?)  And
there COULD be Tnuctip still out there. If they knew that the
slavers were planning something they could have squirreled away a
couple of cities worth of people in stasis fields. And so far known
space actually accounts for a very small volume in the galaxy...

UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
CSNET:vnend@engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 86 19:46:36 GMT
From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
>Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver
>disintegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry at
>Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him.

General Products hulls are held together by the strong nuclear
force, not by electrostatic forces.  The strong nuclear force from a
single proton is much stronger than the electrostatic force from
that same proton.  Therefore, even if you cancelled all the
electrons in the entire hull, it would hold together.  If you used
the Puppeteers' modified disintegrator to cancel the charges on the
protons instead, the usual fireworks would appear as the electrons
flew away and ionized the surroundings.  But the hull would still
hold.  And things inside the hull would, of course, not be affected.

Jef Poskanzer
UniSoft Systems, Berkeley
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef
(415)644-1230

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 04:02:13 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
>Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver
>disintegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry at
>Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him.

I am pretty sure they offhandedly tell you that nothing will happen
if you use a slaver-type disintegrator somewhere in _Ringworld_.
Could be wrong -- I've read so many of his stories that they blur.
Anyway, it would be pretty dumb of the Puppeteers to guarantee that
their hull can't be pierced by _anything_ if you could do it with
just a disintegrator.  Granted, antimatter can do it (but this fact
is "not widely publicized," you may recall).  It seems to me that
the things that surprised them so much about _scrith_ were its
malleability (it could bend, while the General Products hulls
cannot) and its semipermeability to neutrons.  Aside from that, I
got the impression the behaved identically (exception: passing of
light).

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 86 19:31:42 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ? (Stasis Hulls)

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
> One of the bugs I have with Ringworld is how did they get the
> field around Liar OFF? Their sensors (and everything else outside
> the GP hull) were vaporized. How did the ship know it was safe to
> turn off the field? And again when it crashed into Ringworld. But
> hey, it was fun and I don't really care.

  The canonical way to do that is to use an atomic (or other very
fast) clock to turn on the field for an adequate time interval.  The
timer probably ran out a couple of times from when the UV laser hit
the Needle to the collision with the ring, but was reactivated
within microseconds, due to continued irradiation.

Colin Plumb
ccplumb@watnot.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 86 0834-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #415
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Dec 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 415

Today's Topics:

         Books - Allen & Key & Pohl (3 msgs) & Pournelle &
                 Rice & Sagan & Spinrad & A Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 23:33:55 GMT
From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: The Torch of Honor

                         The Torch of Honor
                      by Roger MacBride Allen
                    Baen Books, 1985, 339 pages

I knew I wasn't going to like this book when, on the very first
page, I saw the phrase "light-speed-squared".  Apparently the author
thinks it's reasonable to have his faster-than-light ships travel at
a "speed" of c^2.  Apparently the author never took high-school
physics, since that's about as reasonable as saying the ship masses
three and a half hours.  George O. Smith made the exact same mistake
in the Venus Equilateral series, and later repented.  Could Roger
MacBride Allen be making a subtle reference to Smith?

Nope.  The book is riddled with *stupid* *needless* technical
errors.  Allen likes to go into detail on the technology his
characters use, but he doesn't have anywhere near the knowledge to
pull it off.  After the first few errors, I got out my red pen and
started annotating:

    Page 15: Allen seems to think that the human race was created at
    the time of Christ's birth.  I kid you not, it's there in black
    and white.

    Page 29: A detailed explanation of the light-speed-squared
    drive.  "Faster-than-light drive moves a ship at the square of
    the speed of light.  It's usually referred to as C^2, pronounced
    "cee-squared."  C^2 gets you from the solar system to Proxima
    Centuri in about 105 seconds."

    Page 30: Allen devotes an entire page to explaining why it's
    easier to chart a system's planets from far outside the plane of
    the ecliptic.  But in fact it is much easier to chart them from
    within the plane - you can do a linear search of a ring around
    the sky, instead of a much more complicated search of a far
    vaster hemisphere.

    Page 41: Allen introduces an anti-ship missile system which is
    used to blockade an entire star system.  He explicitly states
    that the missiles use normal speed-of-light photons to detect
    the ships by the special "burst of ultraviolet and X-rays" made
    when exiting C^2 space.  Supposedly the missiles can destroy
    any ship "within seconds" of it entering the system.  Most of
    the rest of the plot is determined by the need to disarm this
    missile system.  And yet I can think of two *obvious* ways of
    defeating the missiles: (1) Get them all to destroy themselves
    by flooding the system with C^2-equipped decoys (quick
    calculation estimates the number of missiles at around 10,000 -
    logistics gives about the same number).  (2) Have your ships
    enter the system a few light-days from the center, and proceed
    inward on fusion power.

    Page 62: Allen has one of his characters do a little rock
    climbing, and goes into needless and grossly incorrect detail.
    It is obvious that Allen either has never done any rock climbing
    or is extremely lucky to have survived.

    Page 63: Allen gets a detail of the Coriolis effect wrong.  He
    also mis-spells Coriolis.

    Page 80: He literally confuses the map with the territory.  The
    character, attempting to liberate the blockaded solar system,
    has to make a rendezvous at a certain set of map coordinates.
    He finds that the locals have changed their reference meridian,
    and on the new maps his coordinates are over ocean, therefore he
    can't make the rendezvous.  Say what?!?  Use the old maps,
    dummy!

    Page 102: A reference to a gigawatt as a unit of energy, instead
    of power.

    Page 195: Allen starts to give performance details on his fusion
    powered spacecraft.  Unfortunately, those details are
    ridiculous.  Allen's ships can barely make it into orbit before
    running out of fuel.  He has no grasp of the six orders of
    magnitude difference between chemical reactions and nuclear
    reactions.

You get the idea.  Total technical lossage.  So why am I flaming
him?  After all, 90% of science fiction is shit.  Isn't this just
one more book for the shit-pile?

Well, for one thing, the back cover quotes some pretty positive
reviews from Locus, Fantasy Review, and Publisher's Weekly.  Locus
even compares Allen to Robert Heinlein.

For another thing - it's really not that bad a book.  The prose is
skillful, sometimes poetic, never boring.  The action is exciting
and well-depicted.  The characters, well, some of them are cut-outs,
but many are well drawn.

How much better would this book have been if the grating technical
inaccuracies had been filtered out?

And the real question: where is Baen Books getting their editors
from??

Jef Poskanzer
UniSoft Systems, Berkeley
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef
(415)644-1230

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 22:28:25 -0500
From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: "The Summer Tree" by Guy Gavriel Kay

I just finished reading "The Summer Tree" recently and I enjoyed it.
I was just wondering if anybody knew when the next book in the
series was coming out.  The first book was published in 1984 but
only recently came out in paperback.

Alexander J. Grossman
305 Thurston Avenue
Ithaca, NY  14850
(607)-257-5653
BITNET:qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet
UUCP: {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver|decvax}!cornell!vax2!qu9j
EDUNET:qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu
ARPA:qu9j@vax2.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 02:01:39 GMT
From: watnot!javoskamp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeff Voskamp)
Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics

The actual number is 4986 digits long (big, but not that big, check
it out using logarithms).  It is interesting to know that the first
50 characters of the decoded string are

 ' a           a                                   ',

not terribly interesting. (I would have gone further, but what's the
next prime after 233?)

There is no problem with the fact that x^0 = 1. To decode the number
you have to factor it.  Since the characters are position dependant
( the fifth character is based on the exponent of 11, for example),
then if the n'th prime doesn't divide into the number, that location
is a space.  If it divides into the number once, it gets an 'a',
etc.

Checking what the n'th character will be is relatively easy, at
least it's easier than decoding the entire string. :-)

You are right however in that the number is much to small for any
reasonable amount of information (especially after we see the first
bit of it).

It's been a learning experience. (Aren't infinite precision math
routines fun!)

Jeff Voskamp
UUCP  : {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp
CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
BITNET: javoskam@watcsg.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 18:07:10 GMT
From: rwt@ukc.ac.uk (R.W.Thearle)
Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics

jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes:
>This is another situation where a basic feel for numbers (or just
>common sense) will immediately spot the flaw: how can you represent
>several million characters of information with about 50?  (Using a
>more limited character set, yet.)  By taking advantage of the
>redundancy in dictionaries, you could probably reduce the number of
>characters by a factor of 100, maybe even 1000, but a million?
>Gimme a break.  In the example above the number expressed as a sum
>is clearly nowhere near big enough to express the product of
>several million different primes.
>
>Besides this, which requires some understanding (though not much),
>Pohl doesn't even seem to know that anything to the 0th power is 1,
>so his spaces go away.

No. Absense of any powers of (say) 11 can be detected, therefore the
position of the spaces can be deduced.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 19:52:20 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics

> Pohl doesn't even seem to know that anything to the 0th power is
> 1, so his spaces go away.

Ok, everybody, don't flame me for this.  I realize that this is not
a flaw in the scheme.  Exponents of 0 are as significant as anything
else.  There is another flaw though:

> As can be seen, the Godelized form for even a short message
> involves a very large number, although such numbers may be
> transmitted quite compactly in the form of a sum of bases and
> exponents.  The example transmitted by the Constitution is
> estimated to equal the contents of a standard unabridged
> dictionary."

Let's estimate just how big this number would be.  Say there are One
billion characters in such a dictionary.  I'll guess that the 1
billionth prime is on the order of 1e11, and that the average
exponent is 10.  I'll use 1e10 as the geometric average of the
primes, since most of them are smaller than 1e11.  (As will be seen,
I can be many orders of magnitude off in each of these assumptions
and still have a valid point.)  The Godelized number encoding the
billion characters will then be about 1e11 to the power 1e9, or
number about 1e10 digits long.  The original message was only 1e9
characters long.  So the raw godelized number is about 10 times
longer than the original message.  This seems reasonable: you're
using a character set poorer by a facter of 2.6, and can lose the
additional factor of 4 by the inefficiencies of the primes.  (I've
been generous in my estimates; it's probably really worse than
this.)

Pohl seems to think that this number can be drastically reduced in
length by expressing it in another form.  Well, in rare instances,
it can.  After all, I can write a number 1e10 digits long as
1e(1e10), using only 8 characters.  The key word is rare.  Pohl uses
the scheme of expressing numbers as a sum of primes to some power.
We can do this with 13 characters: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, p,
+, and -.  Pohl's "Godelized dictionary" number can then be written
as.  1973p354+331p852+17p2008+5p47+3p9606+2p88-78.  That's 44
characters.  In fact, this number is not nearly big enough.
Nevertheless, it is possibe to express numbers which are big enough
using this scheme.  What Pohl seems to think is that a sequence of
about 50 such characters is sufficient to represent all numbers of
1e10 digits.

In fact, 50 characters (from a 13 character set) can represent at
most 50 13 , or about 5e55, different numbers (using his scheme,
actually fewer, since some sequences encode the same number).  Thus
the chance of some random number in the range 0 - 1e(1e10) being
able to be encoded as a 50 character sequence is 5e55/1e(1e10),
which is so close to 0 that it may as well be 0.  In other words,
the chance of encoding an unabridged dictionary as a 50 character
sequence is just about nil.

You disagree with some of my estimates?  I made a few mathematical
errors, a facter of a few billion here, a few trillion there?  It
doesn't matter.  There's enough leeway to hide behind.

A side note: these postings about Niven and Pohl have shown me that
you have to be very careful about posting to this group.  Make the
slightest error, and people are all over you.  Doesn't matter if
your main point is valid.  Just toss off an ill-considered side
remark, and flame, flame, flame!

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 22:17:41 -0500
From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu>
Subject: Jerry Pournelle

Does anybody know when ( and if ) there are going to be more books
in the "Janissaries" series?  I really enjoyed the first two but
have always wondered if there were more coming.

Alexander J. Grossman
305 Thurston Avenue
Ithaca, NY  14850
(607)-257-5653
BITNET:qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet
UUCP: {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver|decvax}!cornell!vax2!qu9j
EDUNET:qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu
ARPA:qu9j@vax2.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 22:51:19 -0500
From: Alexander J. Grossman <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu>
Subject: Anne Rice and The Chronicles of the Vampires

   I would just like to recommend two books in a series by Anne
Rice.  They are "Interview with the Vampire" and "The Vampire
Lestat".  They were both very enjoyable and quite creative with
regard to vampires as a species.  They're both basically narratives
of the past by two vampires in the present day.  There should be
another book in the series coming out soon.  If anyone wants to
discuss these books, please write.

Alexander J. Grossman
305 Thurston Avenue
Ithaca, NY  14850
(607)-257-5653
BITNET:qu9j@crnlvax2.bitnet
UUCP: {rochester|cmcl2|uw-beaver|decvax}!cornell!vax2!qu9j
EDUNET:qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu
ARPA:qu9j@vax2.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 12:49:42 GMT
From: omen!caf@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
Subject: Re: CONTACT by Carl Sagan

kastin@husc4.UUCP (jonathan kastin) writes:
>Just one comment to add about Sagan's _Contact_: it's cluttered
>with reams of excess verbiage. I got the distinct impression that
>Sagan was trying to impress his readers with his vocabulary. It got
>a bit annoying at times.

Can you say "Th-ousands and Th-ousands of words" ?

I found Sagan's political views and stereotype science-nerds that
permeate the book somewhat tiresome.  The bit about the value of PI
at the end of the book was a real groaner; perhaps the answer should
have been 42.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 86 20:55:28 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Card - Spinrad's Comments

cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Ernst ) writes:
>This argument is bogus.
>
>Plato?  The closest thing to fiction he ever wrote was his
>description of Atlantis, and even that's stretching it.  The man
>was a philosopher; he wrote philosophical dialogues, not fiction.

Well, we can see who has only heard about Plato and Artistotle and
who has not read it.  One of the things that these two philosophers
did was literary criticism.  What makes good fiction?  The ancients
knew and wrote about it.

Now you can disagree with Spinrad, who apparantly half-agrees and
half-disagrees with Aristotle, but Aristotle is a rather great place
to start when figuring out whether *Ender's Game* is literature or
not.  If you have a better definition than Aristotle's, then you had
better be able to counter his ancient objections to other
definitions.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura
toad@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 14:16:24 GMT
From: alice!td@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Traffic Light story/author query

I have a vague memory of a short story published in one of the SF
digests sometime in the last 10 years.  The story concerns a guy who
has acquired the knack of driving anywhere he wants in New York
City, never hitting a red light -- he has a perfect mental model of
the city's traffic light timing and always hits the greens.

I cannot recall the title, author or time and place of publication
of this story.  Can anybody help me?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 86 0828-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #416
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Dec 1986   Volume 11 : Issue 416

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (17 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 86 17:28:25 GMT
From: minnie!ihm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ian Merritt)
Subject: Re: STIV & transporting all the time (small-spoilers)

I'm kind of curious how it happened that in a public park, nobody
just happened to wonder why the trashcan got smashed or what those
depressions in the ground were.  It seems somebody (probably a
child) would likely have bumped into the ship.  Also, during the
initial landing, the grass itself didn't compress, but in subsequent
scenes, it was squashed.

Cheers

uucp:   ihnp4!nrcvax!ihm

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 86 20:38:15 GMT
From: gp@lll-lcc.aRpA (George Pavel)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV -- mini-spoilers

mirth@reed.UUCP (The Hero Discovered) writes:
> My major quibble with Gillian's character was that here we have a
> cetacean biologist with a photographic memory, enough scientific
> ability to be the Cetacean Institute's assistant director, and
> enough mental stability to handle being unexpectedly transported
> into an alien vessel, flown to Alaska in 12 minutes, and
> slingshotted around the sun into the 23rd century, where she gains
> a berth on a science ship despite her 'primitive' education.  Yet
> she is a ditzy airhead with no scientific curiosity (if *I* saw a
> mysterious glow in my rear view mirror, and turned around to see
> that the guy I'd just dropped off -- who claimed to come from the
> future -- had vanished, NO WAY would I just drive off!  I'd go
> back and investigate)...

There didn't seem to be a rear view mirror in Gillian's truck.

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
> When they found the truck (a week later?) it probably would be
> stripped (at least in part, if it wasn't towed away beforehand)...

Perhaps Frost is right.  The truck may have been stripped once
already which would explain the lack of a rear-view mirror.

Lindsay Pavel

entered by:
George Pavel
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
P.O. Box 808  L-68
Livermore, CA 9455
(415)422-4262
ARPANET/MILNET: gp@lll-lcc.arpa
UUCP: ihnp4!lll-lcc!gp

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Dec 86 15:31:17-PST
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: STIV and the dent made by the Klingon ship

Did anyone else notice that when Gillian went to bang on the ship,
her foot went into the hole where the ship was supposed to be?

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 05:16:40 GMT
From: prairie!dan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel M. Frank)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV review -- mini-spoilers, kind of

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>IF you assume that there are some aliens out there that have
>technology beyond our wildest dreams, AND that they're on speaking
>terms with our fish for whatever their reasons, THEN, in the words
>of Joe Jackson, "What makes you think they give a sh*t about you?
>Who are you, anyway?"  Why would they even bother noticing us, much
>less explaining themselves?

   The Book of Job has some interesting things to say about this
(no, I'm not a regular poster to mod.religion.rabid or anything, but
it is cogent, and makes for good reading).  When Job's friends all
try to tell him why God would want him to suffer so much, the Big
Guy appears in a whirlwind and asks them where they were when He
created the world, and why they think they know so much about His
motivations.  Enormous power has a way of being incomprehensible to
us.

   If we landed on some planet and were looking for hominids, we
might not explain our presence or actions to tiny creatures
resembling literate cockroaches, because we might not think they
were intelligent, or might not have noticed them.

>The second is that a movie, in the interest of the gibbering
>hordes,..ahem, the average man, tends to focus on a single, small
>group of people.  That's why Brunner's "The Sheep Look Up" and
>Niven/Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer" will never be made into films.

   Not unless Dino DiLaurentiis buys the rights to them, sets his
wife up as producer, and spends millions of dollars to produce hours
of film, which he then cuts beyond recognition, resulting in such
characters as the amazing disappearing Duncan Idaho, or the
inexplicable Archduke Sergei.  It would really be truth in
advertising if he called his movies by such names as "Du", "Tai", or
the coming attractions "The Shee", and "Lucif Ha".

Dan Frank
uucp: ... uwvax!prairie!dan
arpa: dan%caseus@spool.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat 13 Dec 86 11:59:02-EST
From: Rob Freundlich
Subject: STIV time paradox

>yield of a few perfume bottles would not have changed the future
>significantly

Are you sure?  Read "The Sound of Thunder," by (I think) Ray
Bradbury.  The main character steps on a butterfly in prehistoric
times (did they exist way back then? :-) ), and changes the history
of his world so that a different, cruel government is in control
when he returns to the present.  Granted, there's much more time for
the butterfly's death to reverberate through the ages, but I can see
a perfume bottle having a large effect.  Follow:

   It is the late 20th century.  Jane Smith is going on her first
date with Tiberius Kirk, the boy-next-door (and James T.  Kirk's
great-to-the-nth grandfather).  She wants to buy a bottle of perfume
to impress him, but the store is all out.  It seems a whaling ship
"lost" two whales and couldn't make perfume out of them.  Tiberius
decides he doesn't like the way Jane smells, and they never see each
other again.  Goodbye, James Tiberius Kirk.

Rob Freundlich
Wesleyan University
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 86 05:10:29 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>dts@gitpyr.UUCP (Danny Sharpe) writes:
>>her meeting with the president.  These were from the two
>>alternative histories, one with and one without McCoy's
>>intervention.  How did it happen that the playback included both?
> Well, if this happened on the Guardian's planet, as I believe it
> did, the playback could include both for the same reason that the
> characters remained there when their civilization, the ship that
> had gotten them there, and quite possibly their parents had just
> winked out of existence or changed beyond recognition (the
> difference is moot); namely, the Guardian's planet is somewhat
> immune to the effects of the Guardian on history. But not
> completely, which is why the new record is there too.

As I recall it, Spock started the recording of the historical views
from the Guardian *before* McCoy went through and continued after
McCoy had gone through.  Thus his recording would contain data from
both the "before" and "after" time-lines.  As the poster above said,
in the region around the Guardian the influence of time-line changes
does not exist, thus the crew still retain their memories of
"before", as do the tricorder's electronic memories.  Evidently this
zone of influence doesn't extend very far above the surface, or the
Enterprise would have remained, too.  This sort of assumption (some
people or places are protected from the change) is common in
time-travel stories; otherwise the would-be history changer gets
instant non-existence as soon as he does something.  Would *you*
change history under those conditions?

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 86 11:50:38 est
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Star Trek IV and Superman

I was always impressed by the fact that Superman would fly around
the earth faster than light *clockwise* to go into the future and
*counterclockwise* to go into the past.  (God was obviously born in
the northern hemisphere.)

Now we learn that slingshotting 'round the sun follows the same
rules.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 18:03:24 GMT
From: kstevens@vino.dec.com (Sometime's I'm even too weird for me!)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV & Time Travel

>One thing I noticed recently after seeing Star Trek IV was that for
>the first time in many time travel movies, Kirk actually took
>someone into the future with him. This would leave a major question
>mark in the classic paradox of time travel, concerning the
>non-existence "Gillian" (the whale expert) which Kirk took to the
>23rd century. Her family would not exist. And what about the Phaser
>and communicator that Chekov left on the USS Enterprise (The
>aircraft carrier, not the spaceship)...Surely since he left those
>gadgets behind, our society would have gained a technology leap.

Well, Gillian's disappearance could have been explained away in a
very simple fashion. She could have been so distraught over "losing"
her whales that she attempted to follow them and was "lost" at
sea.... ergo ending up in the 23rd. century. Also, it never really
indicated that Gillian had a family.... In fact it was stated by
Gillian to Admiral Kirk that she had no one there.

re: Gadgets....  I'm not so sure that leaving those items behind
would necessarily give us a technological leap.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 00:00:00 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Checking the dents in the park [spoilers]

ihm@minnie.UUCP (Ian Merritt)...
>I'm kind of curious how it happened that in a public park, nobody
>just happened to wonder why the trashcan got smashed or what those
>depressions in the ground were.  It seems somebody (probably a
>child) would likely have bumped into the ship.

Little boy: "I was running in the park and saw some dents in the
ground; I went over to look at them and ran into something that
wasn't there."  His mother: "Quit telling stories.  Now REALLY, why
didn't you come when I called you?"

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm
..cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1986  12:25 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: ST - 4/ City on the Edge of Forever

   As I recall, Spock had two recordings, one made before McCoy
jumped, and one made while they were waiting for the Guardian to
reach the point where he and Kirk could jump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 11:15:47-PST
From: SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA
Subject: ST IV
To: bhs@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA

In response to the question of where was that tank with George &
Gracie, It's the new (well, maybe 2 years old now) Monterey Bay
Aquarium, at the end of Cannery Row.  A place well worth the wait in
line to visit.

suzy@usc-eclc.arpa
Ellay, CA

------------------------------

Date: 15 December 1986, 11:30:50 EST
From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: Star Trek IV

I saw STIV Saturday night and found it reasonably entertaining.
Having had a look at what purported to be the screenplay, I had
expected it to be a drag.  It wasn't.  And having read all of the
notes about it, I had expected to see some minor motivational
problems, one or two peculiarities of a technical nature, & a major,
and unanswerable, question about the probe.  They were all there,
but they didn't interfere with my enjoyment of the film.

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

There were 2 things that bothered me which I haven't seen mention
of.  The first was Scotty's claim that there was nothing he could do
about the de-crystalization of the dilithium, even if he had been
back in the 23rd century.  After leaving him, Spock tells Kirk that
there IS something that can be done, namely to capture some photons
emitted by a fission reactor.  Spock would have included Scotty in
that discussion, to get his view on the engineering feasibility of
implementing that proposal, and Scotty should have thought of this
anyway.  The dialogue could have been something like

Scotty: The dilithium is de-crystalizing, and there's certainly none
        to be found around here that we could use to replace it.

Kirk: Agreed, but isn't there some way to re-crystalize the
      dilithium we have here?

Spock: I believe, Admiral, that application of high-energy photons
       would be sufficient.

Scotty: Oh, aye, but we don't have the plutonium we'd need for a
        reactor, assumin', of course, that I could tinker one up.

Spock:  I don't believe that will be necessary, Mr. Scott. ...

And so on.  Or something along those lines which made it clear that
Scotty isn't an ignorant dolt, simply less well versed in the
history of techonology.

The other matter is Gillian's failure to say something rational
along the lines of "He's not human, is he?" when she first sees
Spock without the headband.  This would give Kirk the opportunity to
say something cute like "Not really, no."  I would have preferred
this to her just giving him a couple funny looks.

Richard.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 17:04:07-CST
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Cetacean Institute

The scenes were filmed at the Monterey Bay Aquarium at Monterey, CA,
which was just built recently.  My wife noticed a kelp forest in one
scene and this new facility is the only one in the world with a
"captive" kelp exhibit.  (Also she noticed the movie credited the
Monterey Bay Aquarium!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:06:01 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Dr. Chapel

You have to be watching _VERY_ closely to see her and Rand. If you
listen to the dialogue while the probe is attacking Earth during the
first part of the movie, you see and hear her saying that they need
power for medical facilities.  (I suspect that she is high up in
Starfleet Medical by now.) Later, during the "court-martial", you
see her and Rand sitting next to each other on the right side of the
council chamber (facing the President).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:10:02 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Whale song

Remember, Gillian said that this was the wrong time of the year for
the whales to be singing, and that they were playing a tape of a
pre-recorded song.  I still can't see how she managed it, but at
least electrical impulses are more reasonable than sound waves.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:19:14 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: STAR TREK IV spoiler

I may have posted this before, but I think that the Enterprise was
scrapped because NCC-1701-A was being built. And as for the Big E
being twenty years old, one of the BEST OF TREK articles pointed out
that this was wrong.  Spock served under Pike (presumably aboard the
Enterprise) for about 13 years.  Captain April (animated) had the
Enterprise for some time, possibly a five- year mission. Then there
were 15 years between "Space Seed" and TWOK. This makes 33 years,
not counting any other time not chronicled.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:25:06 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Does George Takei age?

No. I saw him at a convention in Boston in November.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 86 0826-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #417
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 417

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams (3 msgs) & Blish (5 msgs) &
                     Milan & Niven & The Hercules Text &
                     Blood of Ten Chiefs & Story Requests (2 msgs) &
                     An Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 09:27 EST
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide Returns to NPR

According to the current copy of The Status Line (formerly The New
Zork Times) from Infocom, they are making the BBC 12 part THGTTG
series available to National Public Radio (again) in JAN 87.  This
is to help promote Infocom's game and generally to be all around
nice guys.  It says check your local listings for times and/or call
your local NPR station and remind them it is available.  It says
more info will follow in the next issue.

Now if I only knew where my local NPR station is...

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 21:02:31 GMT
From: ma6rcm@bath63.bath.ac.uk (Richard Moss)
Subject: Hitch Hikers Trivia

For those of us bored by the usual run-of-the-mill trivia questions
that fellow readers come up with, I have a more challenging
question.  In the first book, The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy,
there is, in the vogon spaceship, an example of vogon poetry.  As
red tape specialists, they wil never use a few simple words, but
instead one very long one.  However the message is perfectly obvious
to anybody with a good dictionary.

Thus the poetry has a true, simple meaning and this, users, is the
task, translate the vogon poetry into simplified language.

Richard C. Moss
Bath University
Claverton Down
Bath   BA2 7AY
JANET: ma6rcm@UK.AC.BATH.UX63
UUCP: seismo!mcvax!ukc!bath63!ma6rcm
ARPA: ma6rcm%ux63.bath.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 18:53:18 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Hitch Hiker, and God's final message.

nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>over five millions years long?  A last note, at the end of the
>third book the prisoner (I can't remember his name) told Arthur
>where to find the Ultimate Question. But in the fourth book they
>suddenly started calling it God's final message to his creation.
>Any ideas why the sudden switch?

   Wrong!  They were all looking for the Ultimate Question, but Prak
(I think his name was) either didn't know it or couldn't remember
it.  However, as an alternative, he told Arthur (just before he
died) where to find God's final message to his creation.  If he
*had* given the location of the Ultimate Question don't you think
they'd have gone straight there to find it?  As it was, God's final
message etc.  was not important enough to go to Sevorbeupstry for
it.

   Putting that aside, for a moment, let me answer the criticisms
aimed at HHGTG in other messages in the same digest.  I just want to
say that HHGTG did not start off as a book, but as a radio series.
The cult that started here in Britain was based on this radio
series, and with good reason.  The radio series created an amazing
atmosphere of weirdness by the use of script, acting performances
(especially Peter Jones' marvellous rendition of the Book) and
music.  The TV series didn't even come close to recreating the sort
of feeling the radio series did, since it was dependant on visuals,
in turn dependant on the BBC's low budget special effects (q.v.
Blakes Seven.)

   Finally, dates: The radio series was produced and broadcast on
BBC Radio 4 in early 1978.  (The original airdates are printed in
all British paperback editions of the first book.) The record (get
it if you can) was released in about 1980, as was the second radio
series.  The TV series was produced for BBCtv in 1980, and shown in
early 1981.

Derrick
<ENU1475>%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 12:31:37 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: selahny/black easter

Presumably, selahny is delany.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 21:12:34 EST
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com>
Subject: Black Easter In-Jokes
Cc: DSCargo@hi-multics.arpa

Selahny looks like it might be an oblique reference to Zelazny.
Atheling is clearly "William Atheling", an SF critic, who was a
pen-name.  I'm not positive, but I think Atheling was Blish himself.
I'm sure Jerry Boyajian will enlighten us if I'm wrong.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 10:23:13 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
To: dscargo@hi-multics.arpa
Subject: BLACK EASTER in-joke

   "Atheling" is the pseudonym Blish used for his criticisms of
SF---he was sideswiping himself, perhaps so nobody else could object
to his milder digs at them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 11:36:35 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA>
Subject: Re: In Joke Question

A couple of guesses:

   SELAHNY = ZELAZNY(?)

   ROSENBLUM = SPIDER ROBINSON (?)

   Looking forward to the "definitive" word someone more familiar
with the circumstances is sure to post.

Ron S (rsingle@cct.bbn.com)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1986 10:06:22 PST
Subject: BLACK EASTER
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>
Cc: dscargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA

>From: "David S. Cargo" <DSCargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
>> Father Selahny, a terrifying kabalist who spoke in parables and
>> of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had understood
>> his counsel;
>
>  Are there any other writers buried in there?

Father Selahny just about has to be Roger Zelazny; though I don't
know the publication dates for "Creatures of Light and Darkness" or
"Lord of Light", 1969 is certainly late enough (that's when you said
BLACK EASTER was published) to account for the reference to
incomprehensible parables.  Nice question; I have no clue to
"Uccello", "Rosenblum" or "Atheling".  But let's go find and read
the book, already!

Doug
dolson @ Ada20.isi.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 11:27:24-PST
From: SUZY@USC-ECLC.ARPA
Subject: Intelligent(?) Computers

>"Cybernetic Samuri" by ?? : I saw this in the book store the other
>day.  It's a story about a super-intelligent super-computer that
>could take over the world if not restrained by the Samuri ethics
>instilled into it by its creator.  Or something along those lines.

...or something along those lines...

"Cybernetic Samurai" by Victor Milan.  It's a pretty good read, so
far.  I'm about halfway through, and the Silicon Brat is still
interesting.

suzy@usc-eclc.arpa
University of Spoiled Children
Downtown Ellay, CA

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 05:31:17 GMT
From: lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

jef@unisoft.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes:
>>      Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver
>>disintegrator at a General Products hull? I may get to see Larry
>>at Chattacon next month, I think I'll ask him.
>
>General Products hulls are held together by the strong nuclear force,
>not by electrostatic forces.  The strong nuclear force from a single

   Hmm...  I seem to recall that the General Products hulls gained
their strength from the fact that the entire hull was a single
molecule...  I thought molecules were held together by the
electrostatics of the protons & electrons...  Ionic bonds?  Valence
bonds?  Covalence bonds?  Seem that both the strong an weak nuclear
forces are both far too short range to hold the atoms in a molecule
together...  I may be mistaken, but this seems to be what i was
taught years ago in chemistry class...

   Given that it IS electrostatics holding the monomolecular General
Products hull together, i would think there'd be quite a big POOF!
as the vastly positive (or negative?)  hull suddenly explodes due to
the electrostatic repulsion between its component atoms...  Only
question is what is the source of the energy?  You'd have to have a
pretty big source...

   Also: what if you turn it on for just a couple microseconds?  The
hull starts to POOF! and you turn off the disintegrator.  Suddenly
the electrostatics come back and pull it all back together.  Wonder
how long an interval you can have the disintegrator on yet still
have the hull remain intact?  yes, i'm getting fanciful here, but
there's so much you could DO with this concept! :^)

Lewis R. Jansen
lrj@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 13:50:41 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #412

Unfortunately, THE HERCULES TEXT relied on some astonishingly bad
science, especially computer science.

Tell me again how an optical "laserdisc" will be erased by an
electromagnet...

Tell me again how only two copies of this awesome text will be made,
neither of which is guarded by anything like serious security, both
of which are accessible to scientists who don't have security
clearance....

And it is certainly IMPOSSIBLE (I mean it now, boys) for code to be
broadcast that will run in any computer *****!!!!! IF IT IS SIMPLE
ENOUGH !!!!!*****

I mean it's impossible without that proviso, but really, now. Also
there is no particular reason alien computers should have a Von
Neumann architecture -- that is just how ours worked out. And that
sequence whereby an alien program takes over a startrek game in
someone's pc is just too much..... And you might have noticed the
author specified this pc had 256K of memory -- this is the future
we're talking about! I'm not sure you can even now purchase a new
computer with less than 512k....

Also, modulating a pulsar is just a little gauche, shall we say?
Anyone who could do that could also transmit radio waves without all
the special effects, don't you think?

THE HERCULES TEXT was obviously written after a brief reading of one
of the "cosmology for the working man" books, and the extent of the
author's computer knowledge is probably that he wrote the book using
a word-processor...

At least the author gave Hawking some press, implying that he has
survived to the date of the novel....

It is a real shame that literary and scientific competence don't
occur together more often.....

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:33 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: Blood of 10 Chiefs

   I am astonished by what I have read so far of it, by its utter 
dullness.  It is yet another example of the fannish mentality that has
become such a part of comics/fantasy/sf.  That is to say, the 
worshipping at the holy shrine of 'continuity', writing long involved
stories about minor characters, etc.

Dan Parmenter Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 86 04:31:57 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Story request -- immortality

   I have been reminded of a short story I read many years ago.  The
narrator meets someone (I'll call him Jack) who claims that he is
immortal.  In fact, Jack even cuts himself with a knife, and the
wound heals in an incredibly short time.

   Jack got his immortality from eating a special concoction he
invented (discovered elsewhere?); some of its ingredients were honey
and (I think) clover.
   The narrator is amazed that Jack will reveal the ingredients to
his concoction; Jack laughs, and says that there are hundreds of
variations of honey/clover/etc, and only he knows the exact
proportions.

   I think Jack was a sailor of some type.
   Can anyone give me a pointer to this author/story?  Thanks very
much.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 03:19:47 GMT
From: cmcl2!chenj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James M.C. Chen)
Subject: looking for a story

   I need help locating a science fiction short story I read a long
time ago.  I think it was part of an anthology, but I'm not
positive.  I have no idea who wrote it, what the title was, or
anything except the story itself.

   The plot goes something like this.  While at a party, the
protagonist happens to glance at a stranger who is a sort of mystery
figure that the reader is lead to believe is either Lucifer or
Prometheus, i.e. some sort of fallen angel possessing supernatural
powers.  The mystery man has anciently dropped his guard and allowed
a mortal to look him in the eye and see his inner self.  The effect
of that single brief, glimpse drives this poor soul mad.  He slowly
unravels; beginning to have progressively weirder dreams.

   The stranger realizes what has happened and, being a benevolent
being, tries to help.  By carefully guiding the dreams he salvages
the man's sanity.

   I can't remember much of the story, but I do remember some of the
dreams which were parodies on traditional science fiction stories.
In one, our hero is the last man on the Earth running around a
post-nuclear war city looking for relief from an excruciating
toothache.  He finds the last woman on the Earth.  He asks if she's
a dentist.  She says no, she's something more important, she is the
last woman and they are the last couple on Earth and therefore must
procreate to repopulate the planet.  He asks to borrow her gun,
tells her "I wish you were a dentist", and shoots himself.

   In another dream, the world is in midst of a crisis.  He, and he
alone, possess the answer that will solve the problem.  A beautiful
woman invites him to present his solution to her elderly, scientist
father and a group of his fellow scientists who eagerly await his
words.  The crowd outside the building grows restless and the loud
shouting can be heard.  Our hero is about to deliver his answer,
which was something like "Did you ever consider the computer made a
mistake and that 2+2=4?"  and receive the adulation of the world.
Just before he gets his words out, however, a messenger rushes in
with a telegram from a famous scientist who couldn't be reached
earlier.  The telegram has exactly that same message on it.  Then a
rock is thrown through the window with a piece of paper wrapped
around it bearing the same solution.  Next, people start coming
through the woodwork, all with the same suggestion.  Our hero, who
never gets to tell his answer, laments the fact.  The woman tells
him his trouble is that he thinks he's somebody special.

   Does this ring a bell with anyone?  I'd appreciate it as it's
been bugging me for a long time now.

Jimmy Chen
chenj@cmcl2

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 01:44:31 GMT
From: mcc-pp!sara@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Sara Blatt)
Subject: Re: looking for a story

>    The plot goes something like this.  While at a party, the
> protagonist happens to glance at a stranger who is a sort of
> mystery figure that the reader is lead to believe is either
> Lucifer or Prometheus, i.e. some sort of fallen angel possessing
> supernatural powers.  The mystery man has anciently dropped his
> guard and allowed a mortal to look him in the eye and see his
> inner self.  The effect of that single brief, glimpse drives this
> poor soul mad.  He slowly unravels; beginning to have
> progressively weirder dreams.
>
>    The stranger realizes what has happened and, being a benevolent
> being, tries to help.  By carefully guiding the dreams he salvages
> the man's sanity.

   The story is by Alfred Bester, author of The Stars My
Destination, The Demolished Man, and several other truly remarkable
works.  I'm sorry I don't remember the title, but there aren't many
anthologies of his works, and they are all well worth reading.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 86 0842-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #418
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 418

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:27:56 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald
Subject: Re:Paperback survival times

This book is likely to last longer...I have a collection counting
from the STTMP novelization, and I know I'm not the only one....

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Dec 86 21:59:41-EST
From: MATH.K-COLLINS%KLA.WESLYN%Wesleyan.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: City on the Edge of Forever

In the City on the Edge of Forever, Spock took tricorder readings of
the playing of history of the monolith both before and after McCoy
jumped through it.  Later he compared the two readings to show Kirk
the differences: one with Edith Keeler's obituary and one with her
meeting with the President.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 86 21:20:56 GMT
From: peter@omepd (Peter Auseklis)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship.

I beg to differ with you my friend, but the starship that was
preparing to "rig a sail" was the USS North Dakota. I don't recall
hearing the name of the Captain but he was played by an actor named
Veejay Armitraj, a gentleman last seen by American movie goers in
the James Bond film "Octopussy". He played a secret service
operative that assisted Bond while he was in India.  The name of his
character in Octopussy was incidentally, "Veejay". He is also a
lesser known pro tennis. The only reason I knew that he was
commanding the USS North Dakota was that I have a glossy that was
handed out at the STIV premiere here in Portland, OR. He was listed
as "USS North Dakota Captain".

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 86 19:40:10 GMT
From: dasys1!cforeman@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charles F. Foreman)
Subject: Read the book (was: Star Trek IV review)

vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:
> cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes:
>>      All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun
>>speculating about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing
>>something boring like reading the book and getting a definative
>>answer. But that's like trying to use a complex computer system
>>without reading the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the
>>system and the manual is the manual. You know what someone on the
>>net would say on comp.unix if you asked questions like this
>>without reading the manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king
>>manual). Well, I say RTFB!
>
> There are two interesting questions here.
>
> 1) Is the movie/book computer/manual analogy a good one? I do not
> think so: a) When you buy a computer, you get the manuals. When
> you buy a movie ticket (or rent the tape), nobody throws in the
> book.

Perhaps "manual" was not the proper wording.. I should have said
"technical manual" which is not often included with systems but is
needed for people who want a more detailed look at the
hardware/software.

> b) many great movies have been made based on books, that didn't
> require you to read the book.

Yes, that is very true. And ST IV is one of those movies. I think
that the movie does a satisfactory job of relaying all of the facts
relevant to the plot. If you want more detail, read the book (just
as you would read your technical manual if you wanted to know what
the operating system was doing when you clicked your mouse.)

>   c) I think movies tell stories.

I agree.

>   d) The paperback is not likely to survive as long as the movie.

You mean just like the technical manual?

> 2) Do good computer systems require manuals to operate? My
> Macintosh doesn't.

No, the Macintosh probably doesn't. But then, it's not a good
computer system.  \:-) As far as technical manuals go, the Mac needs
one more than just about any other system due to its extremely
complicated software.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 86 18:37:35 GMT
From: bright@dataio.Data-IO.COM (Walter Bright)
Subject: Star Trek IV

How does the Bounty pick up whale songs from outer space? I didn't
know whales had radio transmitters.

Scotty asks the plastics man to figure out how thick the plastic
would have to be to withstand the pressure of 60,000(?) gallons of
water on a panel x by y. The man says 'that's easy, 6 inches'. The
problem as stated only makes sense if the water formed a column
positioned directly over the plastic panel, but the panels clearly
formed the wall of the aquarium, not the floor.

As anyone who analyzes dams knows, the quantity of water behind the
dam is irrelevant, it is the depth of the water that determines the
strength required of the dam.

Also, additional strength would have to be there to allow for
acceleration loads (which does depend on the quantity of water).

In other words, Scotty needed to give the plastics man a more
specific load distribution in order to get a reasonable answer. I
lost my faith in Scotty...

In Jules Verne's book 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, if you work
through the figures given about the submarine, you will find that
they are consistent with each other and with constants out of
physics books. Why do people who write screenplays regard it as
beneath their diginity to pass the script by a physicist consultant?
People doing historical movies usually check the facts first.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 86 10:40:58 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Read the book (was: Star Trek IV review)

cforeman@dasys1.UUCP (Charles F. Foreman) writes:
>       All right, I'll admit you can probably have more fun
>speculating about why the probe was destroying Earth than by doing
>something boring like reading the book and getting a definative
>answer. But that's like trying to use a complex computer system
>without reading the manual because "boo, hiss" the system is the
>system and the manual is the manual. You know what someone on the
>net would say on comp.unix if you asked questions like this without
>reading the manual? They'd say RTFM (read the f**king manual).
>Well, I say RTFB!

And then threw worse nonsense after bad with this:

>Yes, that is very true. And ST IV is one of those movies. I think
>that the movie does a satisfactory job of relaying all of the facts
>relevant to the plot. If you want more detail, read the book (just
>as you would read your technical manual if you wanted to know what
>the operating system was doing when you clicked your mouse.)

Charles, Charles, Charles.  Are you really that far out of touch
with reality?  I've already said this, but it didn't seem to sink
in: There are no *facts* involved.  The movie was a piece of
*fiction*.  Nothing even remotely resembling the events in the book
or the movie ever happened, or ever will happen.  An OS manual is a
piece of *non-fiction*: it gives a set of facts based in reality,
describing the behavior of the OS.  Fiction describes non-factual
events; non-fiction describes factual events.  (Gosh!  Really?  You
are indeed wise, effendi.)

The book no more gives the *facts* about what happened (which do not
exist!)  than does the movie.  They are both *stories*.  Got that?
Now I'll try not to burst your brain with this next astounding
revelation, which would strain many of the most intelligent minds in
the second grade: They are *different* stories.  They are in
different media, they cannot be experienced simultaneously, they
relate different events, they have different moods and plots and
dialogue.  There are similarities between them, but that doesn't
change the two salient points, which are, first, that there are no
"facts" about what happened, and second, that the two stories are
separate.  There are no definitive answers beyond those given by
each story about itself.

The book may give a more complete plot than the movie.  Great, that
means the book did not suffer the movie's plot flaws.  But that
doesn't change the fact that THE MOVIE did not offer any rationale
for the existence or approach or actions of the alien craft.

I wouldn't bother trying to get this through, but this is hardly the
first time an error of this type has appeared on sf-lovers: this
case provides a particularly glaring example, and pointing out the
flaw in it may help to discourage the same error being made again.
(Such optimism in one so cynical!)  The usual form this error takes
here is explaining away a failure of plot or setting by coming up
with a technical or at least self-consistent excuse for it which has
nothing to do with the plot or setting as presented in the story.
This is making the same confusion of fact and fiction.  I remember
this happening in some of the discussion of Brainstorm, and a host
of other examples are fluttering just beyond the grasp of memory.

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating the obvious.  But then,
this whole article seems rather that way to me.  My apologies to
others who already understand that fictional stories are not made up
of facts.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Dec 86 09:54:20-CST
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: ST-IV metablooper

vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James) writes:
> A bigger meta-blooper is the fact (if you want to stick with it
> being OUR Earth that they are visiting) is that no-one had heard
> of Star Trek and the UFP or phasors or... . I don't really count
> this as a bug, but it does bother me when I see the parts with
> them walking in down town SF.

That's a great idea!  I can see a scene where some teenage kids with
trekkie buttons say "Hey, aren't you Captain Kirk?"  ("No, I'm
*Admiral* Kirk...")

Why stop there, as long as it's the real world, though?  They could
also have a scene with someone saying "Aren't you William Shatner?",
or even someone saying "Aren't you T.J. Hooker?" to really mix
things up...

At the Institute when Spock said "To hunt a species to extinction is
not logical," I half expected Gillian to retort, "Jeez, you sound
like Mr. Spock!"

Think how different the film would have been if they'd used this
metablooper.  The crew could have put the whalequest on the back
burner as they try to figure out how in the hell everyone in the
1980s knows all about the adventures of the Enterprise centuries
later!  But it was still a fun movie.

They could have avoided this metablooper and at the same time cashed
in on a recent profitable movie fad by having the crew travel back
to the 1950s instead of 1980s...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 08:20 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek IV

>>but it does bother me when I see the parts with them walking in
>>downtown SF.

From what I've heard, they really DID walk around downtown SF in
full uniform and no one DID pay any attention.  That's why they
picked SF in the first place.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 86 08:22:04 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV
From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

Personally, I find it hard to believe that nearly every single
person has found this movie to be a wonderful movie -- better than
STII:TWOK.  The Wrath of Kahn was such a classic movie, and this
cannot compare.  Let me qualify by saying, I liked STIV, and I'm
glad I saw it.  I just can't understand how all the long-time fans
out there think it's better than STII.  I thought it lacked for the
following reasons:

1) The best Star Trek TV episodes were when Kirk was outsmarting the
opposition and using all his knowledge of being a Starship captain.
The one where the Enterprise is pitted against the Romulan vessel
with the cloaking device and they're playing a cat-and-mouse type of
game immediately comes to mind.  Another is when the landing party
begins to age, and some Star Fleet guy takes control away from
senile Kirk.  Then Kirk comes back to save the day at the last
minute.  Of course, TWOK is very much the same where Kirk is
continually outsmarting Kahn with the great lines: "Hours may seem
like days..." and "Here it comes, Kahn" etc.  STIV really had none
of this.  They had a mission, they performed it.  And Kirk really
didn't outsmart anybody and show his greatness as a Starship captain
at all.

2) The other thing was that the crew seemed almost too care-free
about everything.  Yes, I know it was supposed to be a comedy.  But
with all the laughing and joking going on, you couldn't tell they
were in any kind of dire mission.  It just seems that they were
kind of acting out of character.  That's fine if they're trying to
change the characters a little; I'm just saying I don't know if I
like it.  I mean, seeing Spock joke around with Kirk is pretty funny
("Do you like Italian?"), but just not in the character that I'm
used to and that I looked forward to.

This is all aside from the fact, that although the story is
wonderful and nice, it IS a little weak.

So far, I guess I'm only the second person in the world not to be
completely thrilled with this movie.  Doesn't ANYONE out there agree
with some of the these points?

scott

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 12:20:45 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV

The original Yorktown was shown in the M5 computer episode of the
series.  It was severely damaged in the Wargames.  Perhaps it was
damaged enough to be decommissioned, and the Yorktown mentioned in
ST IV was a Reliant class remake.  Purely speculation.

Also, in regards to Commander Chapel, she had a brief scene in the
Star Fleet command post that was being destroyed by the storm.  She
said something about needing power for the hospital or something
like that.  She only had about 2 lines.

As far as Uhura picking up whalesong in space, I seem to remember
that the whales were supposed to be broadcasting to the aliens, and
that's why the probe was sent.  The whalesong stopped.  That was all
mentioned in the movie.

As far as the comments about needing to read the book to have some
things explained, take 2001 as an example.  To get a good grasp for
what really happened in the movie, I read the book and saw the movie
about 2-3 times each.  An I felt that 2010 was a weaker movie and
book BECAUSE everything was explained in a nice neat package.  The
mystery is important to my enjoyment of 2001.  In regards to ST IV,
I felt that it wasn't necessary to know exactly what was going on,
because the characters didn't know either.

I enjoyed ST IV immensely, but I enjoyed TWoK better.  My ratings
would go something like this (-4 to +4): ST:TMP = -2, ST II:TWoK =
+4, ST III:TSfS = +2, ST IV: TVH = +3.  As a whole, I think that the
Star Trek trilogy (movies 2 thru 4) kept true to themselves and were
better than the Star Wars trilogy.  Each movie stood on its own
better, and the whole was more satisfying.  The Empire Strikes Back
depended too much on the first movie, and didn't really end, where
The Search for Spock had a real ending, though it still strongly
depended on Khan.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 86 0857-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #419
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 419

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Niven (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 86 09:18:53 -0500
From: Sheri L. Smith <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
Subject: theories of alternate worlds (was Ringworld)

No one has mentioned Niven's "The Integral Trees".  I found this
book both fascinating and thought provoking from a
biological/technical point of view.  The "planet" is a gas torus,
and having no (habitable) solid matter, has effectively no gravity.
Centrifugal force at the ends of the integral sign (yes, as in
calculus) shaped "tree" where our heroes originate produces a weak
force ("tide") which makes life a bit easier for the inhabitants. I
thoroughly enjoyed the speculations on how life would evolve under
no- gravity conditions, what the animals would develop for
controlled motive ability, the ways in which plant life would
reproduce and spread, etc.

The story line itself is pretty good, but I won't spoil it for you!
A good read, and interesting twice...three times, if I can get my
copy back from the person who borrowed it....

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 86 16:58:52 GMT
From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

lrj@batcomputer.UUCP (Lewis R. Jansen) writes:
>jef@unisoft.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes:
>>General Products hulls are held together by the strong nuclear
>>force, not by electrostatic forces.
>
>  Hmm...  I seem to recall that the General Products hulls gained
>their strength from the fact that the entire hull was a single
>molecule...

Here's the exact quote from the Puppeteer at the end of
"Flatlander":

    ``A General Products hull is an artificially generated molecule
    with interatomic bonds artificially strengthened by a small
    power plant.  The strengthened molecular bonds are proof against
    any kind of impact, and heat into the hundreds of thousands of
    degrees.  But when enough of the atoms had been obliterated by
    antimatter explosions, the molecule naturally fell apart.''

I must admit that I mis-remembered this.  But I had a reason: at the
time I originally read it, over fifteen years ago (can it be that
long?), I said to myself "That's bullshit!  The Puppeteer is lying!"
For one thing, "hundreds of thousands of degrees" is a cool breeze
compared to the temperatures involved in impacts at interstellar
speeds.  For another thing, the GP hulls were one of the Puppeteers'
most jealously guarded secrets.  I doubt they'd give away *any* true
information about them.

But, you'll have to believe what you want to believe.

Jef Poskanzer
UniSoft Systems, Berkeley
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef
(415)644-1230

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 04:00:27 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
> It seems to me that the things that surprised them so much about
>_scrith_ were its malleability (it could bend, while the General
>Products hulls cannot) and its semipermeability to neutrons.

  A minor flame... Scrith passes ~40% of the *neutrinos* that
impinge on it.  Neutrons get stopped dead.

Colin Plumb
ccplumb@watnot.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 86 18:34:57 GMT
From: enea!peno@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen)
Subject: Re: Good SF = possible SF ?

>Does anybody know what would happen if you fired a slaver
>disintegrator at a General Products hull?

Evidently nothing, if you recall how they reached the Needle in
Ringworld Engineers at the beginning of "1.5x10exp12".

mcvax!enea!peno

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 21:38:22 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
> Niven did make some other rather silly errors in the book however.
> For instance, he neglected the effect of air drag when he assumed
> that the objects in the cloud would behave like objects orbiting
> in a vacuum.

Say WHAT?  He "neglected the effect of air drag"?  He "assumed that
the objects in the cloud would behave like objects orbiting in
vacuum"?  In what way?  The "integral trees" have the shape they do
because of these atmospheric effects!  You folks DID read this book
before dumping on it, right?

It is not that I particularly dote on Niven, nor do I think his
works are by any means free of "rather silly errors".  It's just
that you folks seem to be picking on the places where he DIDN'T make
errors.  Gimme a break, at least if you want to pick nits, you might
as well pick real nits, eh?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 21:40:12 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics (spoiler)

>>>What is more interesting is that his sequence could have gone
>>>either way!
>> As I recall, the demon was made to disappear by drawing the
>> pentacle on its belly.  I don't think the series could diverge
>> because it wouldn't have been possible to draw a larger penticle
>> than the size of the demon.
> I am saying that process could have worked as the converse of the
> process Niven described.

I assume this means that given the clues up to the time of the
actual springing of the trap, you can't deduce the direction the
demon will take to resolve the dilemma.  I disagree, somewhat.  As I
recall the story, Niven makes the point that the demon's algorithm
to deal with a redrawn pentacle is:

   1) seek pentacle
   2) adjust demon size and position to fit in the redrawn pentacle
   3) rematerialize demon

For the demon to grow as leeper described, the adjustment step (step
2) must be to adjust the demon POSITION but the PENTACLE size to
accomodate the old demon, and this was fairly clearly not what the
demon claimed to do.  The demon claimed to adjust the demon's size
to fit the pentacle, not the reverse.

So, while it is true that

> It has already been established that the pentacle can change size
> during the process,

it was also previously established that this pentacle size change
was NOT how the demon dealt with redrawn pentacles.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 86 21:42:01 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics

> jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt)
> Larry Niven, based on past experience, I have very little
> tolerance for.  The only reason I gave The Integral Trees any
> chance at all is because I read (or at least start to read)
> everything in Analog. [...]  I do have respect for Niven as a
> writer.  It's just that when he hasn't got Jerry Pournelle around
> to correct him, he makes mistakes which spoil the stories for me.
> The argument "so he makes mistakes, it's still a good story" isn't
> good enough: there is simply too much other good stuff to read to
> waste time on flawed stories.

Oh, foo.  Don't listen to 'im, folks.  Here is a person who is
holding up Analog as a good source of "hard sf" stories, and
claiming that Niven doesn't measure up.  Rubbish.  Niven is as
"error free" as 90 percent of the stuff in Analog, as far as I can
see.  And Pournelle has unexplained bolonium and unobtanium, just
like Niven does.  For example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be
taken on faith and its implications for relativity seem rather
poorly worked out; some of the points about the Moties capabilities
seem particularly silly, and so on.  For the most part, Pournelle
makes fewer errors of extrapolation than Niven because he makes
fewer extrapolations.  When and where he gets as wild as Niven, he
generally gets as silly as Niven.

Not that I object to anybody finding Niven intolerable.  No, I
merely object to any implication that this is due to some
significant objective criterion.  Saying "I don't like the kind of
mistakes Niven makes" is fine with me.  Saying "Niven makes horrible
mistakes and others don't" is just sneaking in a taste issue
disguised as an objective evaluation.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 86 08:03 EST
From: OCONNOR DENNIS MICHAEL        <OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Stasis Fields

   1. In _World of Ptavs_ the alien had a button sticking out or
thru the stasis field. Substitute senesors and computers and
whatever for the button and you have a spacecraft with a statis
field hull. Only problem : the button eroded off, so the
un-stasis-ed area presents an "achilles heel".

   2. The _Lying Bastard_ in _Ringworld_ can tell if its safe to
turn off by turning off, seeing if it is safe, and then turning back
on again. This makes the ship vulnerable for the reaction-time of
the threat detector, but it already was during the initial attack
anyway. The puppeteers probably used a GPHull to decrease the
vulnerability during this period.

   3. Stasis fields make excellent walls for fusion reactors.
Perfect mirrors, even of plasma, much better than mag-fields.

   4. Stasis fields are probably bi-stable : some amount of energy
needed to turn them on, but very little to maintain.  You might need
NO energy to maintain them, but then you need some amount to turn
them back off. Probably they can be modelled as a parrallel RC
circuit feeding a threshold detector, with the resistor VERY large (
maybe infinite ). Think about this : if a stasis field needs energy
to maintain it, where does the energy go ? It isn't radiated by the
field.

Dennis O'Connor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 10:28:38 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: stasis fields

From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)

>One of the bugs I have with Ringworld is how did they get the field
>around Liar OFF?

Wasn't this supposed to be a wink field? i.e., it would run for
something like a nanosecond internal time (~hour external) then shut
off and see whether whatever had frightened the ship into invoking
stasis was still around? Of course, this doesn't work if you've lost
all your sensors in the meantime, but even a puppeteer (especially a
crazy one) can't think of everything.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 86 08:45:44 PST (Wednesday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Niven and Star Trek

The animated Star Trek episode, entitled "The Slaver Seapon", was in
fact an adapted Known Space story: "The Soft Weapon". They simply
replaced the husband and wife team with Sulu and Uhura, with Mr.
Spock playing the part of Nessus, the Pierson's Puppeteer of the
original story.  It was otherwise identical in most respects.
Therefore, the Kzin were much the same.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 12:35:59 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: Ringworld

> ... "shadow square wire" was very thin and would cut whatever it
> wanted ... , while Sinclair stuff needed to be encased in a stasis
> field to do so.  They are obviously not the same thing.

I beg to differ, but if they are not the same thing, they are very
close.  Only in the variable sword is Sinclair chain encased in
stasis.  And this is so you have a straight piece of wire, which is
easier to control and easier to avoid dismembering yourself, than
plain molecule chain.  Elsewhere in known space, it is used without
stasis, and cuts just like shadow square wire.  (Read some other
Known Space books).  I seem to recall the terms being used
interchangably.  BTW, as you can tell by its name, Sinclair molecule
chain is pretty thin too.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 86 18:50:28 GMT
From: sq!msb@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

In regard to the following [bear with me, I've shortened the
inclusion, but some of the words are important]:
>> [Niven] said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic
>> empire? ...  ... Because the phone numbers in the transporter
>> booths would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial
>> them."  He said this in all seriousness.  The audience member
>> said, "but you could address every square meter of every planet
>> surface in the galaxy with just a few dozen digits."  Niven
>> looked at Jerry Pournelle ...  ... and asked, "is that true?"
>> Dr. Pournelle looked pretty embarrassed ... as he said "yes."
>> "Oh," said Niven.
>
> I think you're being a bit hard on Niven here. I would think he
> meant it in a light hearted way, and just hadn't thought it
> through. ... "A few dozen digits" is definitely too much for me.
> What would such a galactic phone book weigh anyway?

I quite agree with the second poster, and I'd like to support that
opinion with the following passage from the essay "Space, the
Unconquerable" in "Profiles of the Future" by Arthur C. Clarke.
(This is also the book in which you can find Clarke's Laws.  Why
don't you go and buy a copy?)  I am quoting the 1972 revised
edition, but from the numbers cited, I suspect this essay may not
have been updated since the original edition of 1962.

I won't mark it marginally, but everything below the signature below
is Clarke.

Mark Brader
utzoo!sq!msb

For the universe has two aspects -- its scale, and its overwhelming,
mind-numbing complexity.  Having [hypothetically] abolished the
first, we are now face-to-face with the second.

What we must now try to visualize is not size, but quantity.  Most
people today are familiar with ... [exponential notation] ... even
defense budget totals look modest when expressed as $5.76e9 instead
of $5,760,000,000.

The number of other suns in our own Galaxy ... is estimated at about
1e11 ... Our present telescopes can observe something like 1e9 other
galaxies, and they show no sign of thinning out even at the extreme
limit of vision ... let us confine ourselves to those we can see.
They must contain a total of about 1e11 times 1e9 stars, or 1e20
stars altogether.

One followed by twenty other digits is, of course, a number beyond
all understanding.  There is no hope of ever coming to grips with
it, but there are ways of hinting at its implications.

Just now we assumed that the time might come when we could dial
ourselves, by some miracle of matter transmission, effortlessly and
instantly round the cosmos, as today we call a number in our local
exchange.  What would the cosmic telephone directory look like if
its contents were restricted to suns and it made no effort to list
individual planets, still less the millions of places on each
planet?

The directories for such cities as London and New York are already
getting somewhat out of hand, but they list only about a million --
1e6 -- numbers.  The cosmic directory would be 1e14 times bigger, to
hold its 1e20 numbers.  It would contain more pages than all the
books *that have ever been produced since the invention of the
printing press*.

To continue our fantasy a little further, here is another
consequence of twenty-digit telephone numbers.  Think of the
possibilities of cosmic chaos, if dialing 27945015423811986385
instead of 27945015243811986385 could put you at the wrong end of
Creation...  This is no trifling example; look well and carefully at
those arrays of digits, savoring their weight and meaning,
remembering that we may need every one of them to count the total
tally of the stars, and even more to number the planets.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 86 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #420
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 420

Today's Topics:
      
      Films - East Coast Humorists (3 msgsg) & 2001 (2 msgs),
      Television - Twilight Zone & Doctor Who &
              Starlost (4 msgs),
      Miscellaneous - Time Travel (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 01:37:17 GMT
From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald)
Subject: Re: East Coast humorists

tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes:
>What Nick is responsible for are the Phil A. Delphia, Secret Agent
>86 radio plays which were done for the Philadelphia in '86 worldcon
>bid.  For a while, both Nick and Phil were part of the Zanti
>Misfits, a group which did comedy routines at conventions in the
>Northeast corridor.  Since Phil's moved back to Chicago, the group
>now goes under the name of The Gunderson Corporation.  If you get a
>chance to see them, do so.  Particular favorites of mine are Nick
>doing a dramatic reading of the Spider-Man cartoon theme, the
>selling Star Wars to the movies skit, and the hysterical Sherlock
>Holmes skit.

  Just wanted to mention Nick told a friend and I that a second
Phil-A-Delphia tape would be ready by the Boskone convention next
February (I think its Feb). The Gunderson Corporation appeared at
Philcon and was great.  poo-GAH!

Rob Wald
Princeton University Information Services
6090617@PUCC.BITNET
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86  16:40:00 EST
From: FULIGIN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Peter E. Lee)
Subject: "You say 'Yamato'"

     The name of Phil Phoglio's collaborator on "You say 'Yamato'"
was NICK smith, not Mike Smith.  I know Nick reasonably well, and I
don't believe he had anything to do with the 'Bambi' shorts.  As to
getting copies of 'You say', I wish you luck!  Neither Nick or Phil
have ever, to the best of my knowledge, given out any.  I've been
told their reasoning before, but it escapes me at the moment...

Peter Lee
FULIGIN%UMass.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 86 02:40:23 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: East Coast humorists

OK, there are two tapes that have been done up in the "What's Up
Tiger Lily" style; You Say Yamoto... and Dr. Who And The Invasion Of
The Croutons.  These were done by Phil Foglio and Nick (not Mike)
Smith.

Nick is not responsible for any of the Bambi vs. Godzilla series.
Nor is he responsible for the extremely funny Snit of Khan.  Snit
was written by Peter David, who also wrote Return to Jedi: Address
Unknown, and a takeoff on ST III that I don't recall the title of.
Peter's probably best known for his work as a writer at Marvel,
particularly Spectacular Spider-Man.  He's got a novel coming out
under his own name early next year, as well as a series of 6 novels
based on the Photon game which will appear under the name "David
Peters".

What Nick is responsible for are the Phil A. Delphia, Secret Agent
86 radio plays which were done for the Philadelphia in '86 worldcon
bid.  For a while, both Nick and Phil were part of the Zanti
Misfits, a group which did comedy routines at conventions in the
Northeast corridor.  Since Phil's moved back to Chicago, the group
now goes under the name of The Gunderson Corporation.  If you get a
chance to see them, do so.  Particular favorites of mine are Nick
doing a dramatic reading of the Spider-Man cartoon theme, the
selling Star Wars to the movies skit, and the hysterical Sherlock
Holmes skit.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 00:42:09 GMT
From: fai!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: chicken & egg

nelson_p@apollo.uucp writes:
> RE: Brandon Allbery's comment that 'some scenes don't translate to
> movie form too well...example...2001: A Space Odyssey'.
>
> '2001' was one of those books based on the movie, not the
> other way around.

I think you should both read "The Making of 2001".  The book and the
script were written concurrently.  Specifically, the ending was
re-written several times because Kubrick couldn't film it.  (As a
side note, Kubrick has said that given enough money he can film
anything a writer can describe.  I guess he didn't have enough
money. :-)

I recommend "The Making of 2001".  It has several alternate
storylines for the book, and includes the original short story the
whole idea was based on.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 86 00:19:03 GMT
From: cerebus!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (sysadm)
Subject: Re: chicken & egg

ronc@fai.UUCP (I) write:
>I think you should both read "The Making of 2001".

Oops, I probably meant "The Lost Worlds of 2001".  I have both
somewhere...

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
seismo!amdahl!fai!cerebus!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Dec 86 16:17:34-PST
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU>
Subject: Twilight Zone cancelled

CBS has cancelled Twilight Zone, effective almost immediately.  The
last show will be aired on Thursday December 18th.

Although it was being killed by NBC's Cosby Show in the ratings, it
was still ahead of ABC's Our World, although not by that much.

TZ and Designing Women (which has been put on hiatus) will be
replaced by a one hour adventure/comedy about two reformed con
artists who will pull off elaborate sting operations each week.

I've heard there are still about 10 hours of filmed footage which
has not been shown.  I'd guess that there's a possibility that some
of this may show up next summer, but I wouldn't count on it.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Fri 19 Dec 86 17:07:48-GMT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dundee-tech.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Dr Who

***** Colin Baker resigns

Colin Baker today announced he would no longer play Dr Who.

Filming for the new series begins in March and it seems Baker was
only asked to play the Dr in 4 of the 14 episodes. He then stormed
out saying he would never play the Dr again.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 06:59:57 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Help on childhood memory

"The Starlost" was created by Harlan Ellison.  They ruined his idea
so much that he employed the clause in the standard Writers' Guild
contract allowing the writer's name to be replaced by a pseudonym,
in this case "Cordwainer Bird".  There is a very funny essay about
the show in the collection *Stalking the Nightmare*, in the third
"Scenes from the Real World", called "Somehow, I Don't Think We're
in Kansas, Toto".

I used to wonder why Ellison kept dealing with television, a medium
he hates, but apparently he's always a little short on dough for
some reason, and the one good thing about TV work is that it pays
outrageously large sums of money.  I think he also harbors fantasies
of being one of the few people outside PBS to actually accomplish
something worthwhile in the medium.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 01:39:47 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: Help on childhood memory

g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>The TV show you are referring to is "The Starlost," created by
>Harlan Ellison and ruined by the producers. Harlan has written lots
>about the horrible things done to his concept. Ben Bova has a
>fictionalized account of the making of the TV show called _The
>Starcrossed_ or some such thing. I have read a novelization of the
>pilot called _Phoenix Without Ashes: The Starlost #1_, adapted by a
>friend of Harlan's and *very good*, which I recommend. (I don't
>remember his name, sorry.) I've never seen

Ed Bryant novelized "Phoenix Without Ashes". Ellison's script was
published a few years ago in a (Roger Elwood?) anthology of SF
drama.

Another Harlan Ellison roman a clef is Asimov's "Murder at the
ABA",which (I believe) may refer to "Starlost".

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 17:53:12 GMT
From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall)
Subject: Re: Help on childhood memory

spock@hope.UUCP (Chris Ambler) writes:

> I remember vaguely seeing a SF show as a small child. Can anyone
> ID it?  2 people are at the end of a long corrodore in a very
> large ship that is (I believe) a derrilict...

AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!! The Starlost!!! Curses on you! I had purged that
show from my working memory until you brought it up! AAARRRGGGHHH
:-) :-)

The show was called "The Starlost". If I remember right, it was
carrying a number of civilizations (in individual "domes") away from
a disaster.  Then there is a massive equipment failure which kills
the crew and dooms the ship to drift forever in space unless someone
can make it to the control room. etc.

The show was developed by Harlan Ellison who then almost nuked the
network when he saw what they did to it. And truely, it did stink to
high hell!

I may have some of this wrong. It has been a long time and I truly
had not thought about this show in years. Anyway, just in case, I'd
better put on my flame-proof vest.

Ted Marshall
Britton Lee, Inc.
14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030
voice:(408)378-7000
uucp: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted
ARPA: mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 15:50:52 GMT
From: netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Royal White)
Subject: Help on childhood memory (STARLOST)

The STARLOST concept was indeed Harlan Ellison's.  He insisted the
alias Cordwainer Bird be used for the credits because of what the
studio did to his story. Look for any Cordwainer Bird stories, not
Cordwainer SMITH, they're Harlan's.

The show really wasn't that good even though it had an interesting
premise and some neat special effects.

What's really funny is that Walter Koenig(Chekov) appeared in
several episodes later on in the series.  This is compounded by the
fact that Walter and Harlan are good friends.

Walter played an alien trying to salvage the ship for its wealth of
scientific and engineering information.  The idea being that any
race building a ship of such an enormous size and complication had
to have made advances in many areas.  At one point toward the end of
the series the human leader (Devon, I think) and Walter must argue
their case before the controllers of the Ark, the computers and
robots, for control and ownership of the Ark.  Devon won but the
computers admitted they were biased.

Royal White, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Dec 86 14:52:02 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Time travel
To: rsingle@BBNCC-WASHINGTON.ARPA

From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA>
>Or on land that will be good for farming or settling when the
>(insert appropriate time period's word for pioneers) get there.
>You could trade for it, sell it, or get rich farming it.

  Ah yes.  Get rich as a farmer.  That shouldn't be too difficult,
especially in the distant past.

>Invest in things your previous knowledge gives you the advantage
>in.  Support Henry Ford, ...

  Most of his business undertakings failed.  Do you know which one
didn't?  Are you sure?

>Next subject: What if you were catapulted into the future?

  Get rich as a historian.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Dec 86 14:56:45 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Time travel

From: lrj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Lewis R. Jansen)

>What would someone pay for an aluminum sword?  What would someone
>pay for a decent set of aluminum armour?

  Very little.  Steel is a lot stronger.

>Would you rather walk around w/ 30 pounds of armour or 10 pounds?

  30 pounds, if it would save my life.

>I'm not a metallurgist, so I have no real idea of how aluminum
>compares to iron in holding an edge, ...

  Well, have you seen many aluminum razor blades?

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 22:26:34 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Changing history
To: frog!sc@RUTGERS.RUTGERS.EDU

From: frog!sc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (STella Calvert)
>And _somehow_ (I haven't done the research, so I'm not sure what
>the best trick would be) I'd like to ensure that the anti-taxers
>won the Whiskey Rebellion. ...

  Several of L. Neil Smith's books (_The Probability Broach_, _The
Nagasaki Vector_, _Tom Paine Maru_, etc) are mostly set in a
parallel universe in which the Whiskey Rebellion succeeded.

  It turns out that the original difference between their world and
ours is an extra word in their Declaration of Independance:
"...deriving its just power from the unanimous consent of the
governed...".  The word "unanimous" does not appear in OUR
Declaration of Independance.

  If you have a time machine and really want them to win, a few
dozen machine guns should also do the trick.

  How about giving a copy of Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_ to each of
the founding fathers in 1775?

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 22:28:48 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Changing history

  If I had a time machine, I wouldn't go back myself.  Instead, I
would send a chain smoker, with lots of cigarettes and cigars, to
first century Jerusalem.  With any kind of luck, his smoking will
sufficiently annoy Jesus to get smoking banned in the Bible.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Dec 86 14:55:30 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Time travel

From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)
>But really, let's face the fact that time-travel stories which
>allow the possiblity of altering history are inherently
>contradictory.  There is NO WAY to get around the paradoxes

  Not so.  There are two main consistent ways to allow time travel:

1) Branching universes
   Travelling back in time (or sending a message back in time)
   branches off a new parallel universe. (see Hogan's
   _The_Proteus_Operation_).

2) Stack-type system
   Travelling back in time (or sending a message back in time)
   causes the previous future of that time to be wiped out and start
   over.  (see Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_a_Time_).

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 86 19:33 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: Time Travel/Star Trek 4

   Somebody mentioned that there are no paradoxes associated with
moving someone forward in time.  Ah, but what about the most often
overlooked time travel paradox of all?  That being, the fact that
time travel violates the first law of thermodynamics, regarding the
fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed.  If you go back in
time 5 minutes and meet yourself, there are now two of you.  Where
did the extra you get all that matter and energy?  So, the principal
works no matter how far back you go.  It also works in reverse:to
whit, bringing someone forward in time also doubles that matter and
energy.  The only logical explanation I know of is that time occurs
in discrete units, like frames in a movie film, and that things can
move in and out of their frame.  This assumes that every frame of
time exists simultaneously, and that is yet another horrid problem.
Oh well, just a thought..

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 86 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #421
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Dec 1986     Volume 11 : Issue 421

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Niven (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 12:41:41 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Slavers, tnuctip, etc. (was "Ringworld implausibilities")

From D. W. James (vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet)
> Remember, at the time of the Slaver Era, Earth was a food planet,
> with oceans covered with food algea. Most of the life on Earth
> EVOLVED from that algea.

But not necessarily the humans!  A friend of mine once told me that
that was the biggest "hole" in known space: two conflicting stories
of the origin of man.  The first is the one mentioned above, that
life on earth evolved from the algae pool left by the slavers.  The
second is the one set forth in _Protector_, that man is a mutation
of a breeder.  But, say I, this is still consistent.  The sea-statue
slaver (sorry, I can't remember his name) only GUESSED that the
ptavvs he encountered on earth where descended from the algea
foodstuff.  Go back and read it if you doubt me.  The idea was very
clearly presented as a supposition on his part, because he could
think of no other explanation (not knowing about the protectors).
Obviously, he must have been wrong, because the story in _Protector_
leaves little room for variation.  The other creatures may have
evoloved from the algea, but Phsstpok was convinved (based on his
knowledge of protector history) that the colonizing protectors had
landed on Earth.  The sea-statue slaver was only guessing, and was
probably wrong.  Remember, slavers aren't very intelligent (at least
the one example we have seen isn't)---they're just psionically very
powerful.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Dec 86 10:55:58-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Known Space Books

With all this talk about Niven's "Known Space" stories, I'd like to
go back and read the books and stories.  Can someone list all the
books and stories he's written about it (or tell me if such a list
already exists somewhere)?  Thanks.

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 21:40:13 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

Niven's remark on transporter booth numbers in a galactic
civilization demonstrates a common belief among science fiction
writers: that we will still be the same old homines sapientes
thousands of years in the future.  I'm so sure that by the time we
have transporter booths with an interstellar range, we will not have
some way of boosting the capabilities of human memory and other
forms of cognition.  Right.  I think that it is more likely we will
at least double human intelligence within a century, thanks to
molecular engineering, viral surgery, and so forth.  Neuro-electric
interfacing is not more than thirty years away, you know....

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 01:28:57 GMT
From: desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: What Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle don't know about physics

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
> jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt)
>> I do have respect for Niven as a writer.  It's just that when he
>> hasn't got Jerry Pournelle around to correct him, he makes
>> mistakes which spoil the stories for me.
>
>For example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith and
>its implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out; ....

   Yes indeed.  On page 424 of my Pocket paperback (of TMiGE) Renner
(by far the most intelligent character in the book; i.e. moderately
intelligent) says to find the Alderson point by "project[ing] the
path of the Motie ship until it intersects the direct line between
the Mote and Murcheson's Eye."
   There are two ludicrous errors here.  First, it appears that
Niven and Pournelle think that these Alderson points lie on "direct
lines" between stars.  Too bad that there is no such thing.  Second,
they are amazed by the accuracy of Motie navigation.  But projecting
the course of the ship is just as hard as setting the course in the
first place; in fact it is substantially harder, because you need to
project the turnover point.  If they can't do one, why can they do
the other?

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 01:23:16 GMT
From: enea!peno@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen)
Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics

>>Who would "dial" a phone in the future?  What a silly thing to
>>say, and
>I was disturbed by this at first, because he was obviously
>referring to the punching of numbers into a keypad.  Then I
>realized that *WE*

Why dial a *number* at all?  When I want to access a file on this
machine do I type in a string of device and inode numbers?  The only
reason we still use telephone numbers is that our computers are too
slow.

On a related note (this is too silly, my memory must be failing) I
seem to recall that if you dialed a non-existent number in a
transfer booth you would simply vanish.  Such a system without even
elementary precautions would solve the population problem in no
time.

mcvax!enea!peno

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 02:22:27 GMT
From: landauer%morocco@Sun.COM (Doug Landauer)
Subject: Re: dialing around the Universe [ was Niven & math & Clarke ]

msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes:
>>> [Niven] said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic
>>> empire? ...  ... Because the phone numbers in the transporter
>>> booths would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial
>>> them."
>> I think you're being a bit hard on Niven here. I would think he
>> meant it in a light hearted way, and just hadn't thought it
>> through. ... "A few dozen digits" is definitely too much for me.
>> What would such a galactic phone book weigh anyway?
>I quite agree with the second poster, and I'd like to support that
>opinion with the following passage from the essay "Space, the
>Unconquerable" in "Profiles of the Future" by Arthur C. Clarke.  I
>am quoting the 1972 revised edition, but from the numbers cited, I
>suspect this essay may not have been updated since the original
>edition of 1962.

OK, so it appears I have the advantage of 24 years more experience
with the progress of computers and technology than Clarke did, or
any of the other posters above apparently do.

Why why why are we extrapolating without changing AT ALL our idea of
the user interface technology???  Are you people the reason why we
can expect COBOL to be continuing to plague our descendents
thousands of years from now?  The ideas of humongous phone books and
memorizing (or looking up) billions and billions of 20-digit numbers
is as laughably ludicrously limited as is the idea of using a slow,
rotary dial to dial them!

> ...everything [quoted] below ... is Clarke.
>
>They must contain a total of about 1e11 times 1e9 stars, or 1e20
>stars altogether.
>
>Just now we assumed that the time might come when we could dial
>ourselves, by some miracle of matter transmission, effortlessly and
>instantly round the cosmos, as today we call a number in our local
>exchange.  What would the cosmic telephone directory look like if
>its contents were restricted to suns and it made no effort to list
>individual planets, still less the millions of places on each
>planet?

We'd use domain names, of course.

>The directories for such cities as London and New York are already
>getting somewhat out of hand, but they list only about a million --
>1e6 -- numbers.  The cosmic directory would be 1e14 times bigger,
>to hold its 1e20 numbers.  It would contain more pages than all the
>books *that have ever been produced since the invention of the
>printing press*.

And they'd all be in computers, with local name servers, distributed
throughout the universe.

>To continue our fantasy a little further, here is another
>consequence of twenty-digit telephone numbers.  Think of the
>possibilities of cosmic chaos, if dialing 27945015423811986385
>instead of 27945015243811986385 could put you at the wrong end of
>Creation...  This is no trifling example; look well and carefully
>at those arrays of digits, savoring their weight and meaning,
>remembering that we may need every one of them to count the total
>tally of the stars, and even more to number the planets.

We, of course, need never remember any numbers like that anymore.
Even today, you can buy telephones to which you can say "call mom"
and the phone will make the connection.  Just for a rough
calculation, let's suppose we can identify 20 consonants and 15
vowels.  Now let's see just how many syllables are required to speak
in order to uniquely identify any of these 1e20 "places".  Let's
even restrict the idea of a syllable to one consonant followed by
one vowel.  Then there are 300 syllables.  300**9 is more than
1.9e22.  So you could uniquely identify any star anywhere in the
Universe by speaking just nine of these restricted syllables.

Of course, the whole idea of having to make such a cosmic encoding
is pretty silly.  Do any of you have a current world directory, with
names and addresses [where applicable] and phone numbers [where
applicable] of every other person on this planet?  Of course not!
You're already using domain names, in the form of local telephone
books, and, even more locally, personal telephone books [or computer
files].

The set of locations you'd be interested in is still likely to be
limited to few enough places that you could write them down on a few
hundred pages anyway.

And, instead of writing them down or even memorizing nine-syllable
nonsense words, what is more likely is that you'll [well, not you --
you'll be dead] be able to have a simple conversation with the
transport system, which would narrow down your choice of location
until it's the right place.

Doug Landauer
Sun's Net: landauer@morocco
ARPANET: landauer@sun.com
UUCP:  {amdahl, decwrl, hplabs, seismo, ...}!sun!landauer
Phone:   415 691-7655

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 19:01:21 GMT
From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

> Human intelligence will double in the next hundred years.

Given a long enough time, I could say that pigs will have wings too.

> Neurointerfacing is not more than thirty year away.

If you consider the efforts made to give deaf people a semblance of
hearing by stimulating aural nerves, we already have it.  But, does
that mean that intelligence will be increased?  Doubt it.  It means
that very low IQ (morons), and other, normal to high IQ (you and
me), people could possibly quickly access scads of information and
perform lightning calculations.  But is that an increase in
intelligence?  Nope.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 86 10:24:43 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Increased Intelligence

twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
>> Human intelligence will double in the next hundred years.
>> Neurointerfacing is not more than thirty years away.
>If you consider the efforts made to give deaf people a semblance of
>hearing by stimulating aural nerves, we already have it.  But, does
>that mean that intelligence will be increased?  Doubt it.  It means
>that very low IQ (morons), and other, normal to high IQ (you and
>me), people could possibly quickly access scads of information and
>perform lightning calculations.  But is that an increase in
>intelligence?  Nope.

Thirty years for human neurointerfacing (within the brain rather
than at an external sensory level) is a best guess prediction based
on the following assumptions, which could be off the mark.

(a) Nanotechnology is feasible and will begin to be seriously
developed within twenty years.  This seems feasible because
molecular-scale memory chips are already being prototyped and will
probably become real within ten years.  (The researchers involved
are saying five, so....)

(b) Neural network theory is somewhat accurate and can serve as a
basis for modelling cognitive function.  Again, I am assuming
significant progress within twenty years, say simulated sensory
registers, pattern matchers (of course, we can already simulate this
up to complex cells, but it is a pretty big job on a digital
computer, I believe), and short-term and long-term memory stores; as
well as what other goodies cognitive psychology discovers in the
interim.

(c) These being in place, the obvious application is repairing CNS
damage using either special-purpose or undifferentiated artificial
neural networks spliced into the CNS using nanotechnology.  This
will first be done with animals, probably cats for the obvious
reasons, repairing carefully created lesions at first.  I am giving
this about ten years in the laboratory before human applications are
possible.  This assumes that it becomes as widely studied as the cat
visual cortex is today.

(d) There will be some further quantum leap forward in "transparent"
scanning technology, allowing close CNS monitoring.  (This may or
may not involve nanotechnology).  This is assumed within fifty
years, because many such leaps have taken place in the last fifty
years.

Now, what becomes possible when cognitive psychology is augmented
with the ability to physically monitor neural activity in a
"running" brain?  Physiological correlates for high-order cognition
can be discovered by a much faster and more replicable method than
waiting for fortunate lesions to occur or stimulating convict
brains.  There will be an explosion of solid results in the area.
For the first time, we will be able to understand *some* high-order
cognition from neurons all the way to processes (or whatever).

Obviously, the human brain as it stands is not the last word in
executing high-order cognition.  Conscious design, aided by
twenty-first-century nanotech supercomputers, should be able to
improve on the evolved solutions given a few decades or less.  For
instance, we would be able to design hypothetical neural
architectures with fifty-item short term memory instead of six or
seven.  Other examples would be rapid learning, parallel conscious
deliberation, better memory of recent thoughts, and long term memory
with higher speed and/or reliability.  These could be built and
tested in isolation, then applied to unfortunate victims of
"nature's method of lesions" for further development (using the
neurointerfacing tech of (c)), and finally made available to the
populace as a whole.  (An alternative is to try to give a cat the
power of speech or some such.)

This all relies on serious technological advancement in several
fields, but they are fields which are currently advancing at a good
rate.  I think it is possible we could create super-intelligent
humans within fifty years, if progress continues in these fields at
a high rate; and I think it is very unlikely that it would take as
long as two hundred years for these fields to advance to this point.
"Within a century" seems like a reasonable, albeit vague, estimate.

"Intelligence" is a vague word.  Intelligence is made up of a number
of cooperating (and sometimes conflicting) factors which sometimes
seem to be reasonably well modeled by cognitive psychology.  It is
my belief, based on the projections above, that "within a century"
it will be possible to improve some of these factors which are of
general importance to intelligence as a whole (such as long and
short term memory and speed of learning) by significant amounts.  I
am not merely talking about a direct neural interface to a
calculator and a computer network, as you seem to think, but
improvements to the high-order cognitive processes themselves.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 86 0807-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #422
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Dec 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 422

Today's Topics:

               Books - Kay & Niven & A Story Request,
               Films - SF Parodies,
               Miscellaneous - Fanzine Writers (2 msgs) &
                       Creation Convention &
                       Request for Address & Math (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 86 16:10:15 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #415
Cc: "Alexander J. Grossman" <qu9j@vax2.ccs.cornell.edu>

>I just finished reading "The Summer Tree" recently and I enjoyed
>it.  I was just wondering if anybody knew when the next book in the
>series was coming out.

The second book, "The Wandering Fire" came out close to a year ago.
The third, "The Darkest Road" came out in November.  Both are still
in hardcover only.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Dec 86 15:26:41 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Larry Niven's ignorance
To: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Cc: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu

From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
>I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude in The Integral Trees.

  He didn't make the mistake you accuse him of, but he did make an
equally severe mistake in that book.
  When people leave the tree, they soon run into a different bunch
of people.  But the smoke ring is BIG.  Either Niven is saying that
different objects would stay in close proximity for centuries, or
that the few dozen people who arrived a few centuries earlier could
have completely populated the whole smoke ring by then.  Either way
it's absurd, and it spoiled the book for me.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 86 20:39:37 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: YASR (Yet Another Story Request)

   Geez... this must be nostalgia month!  Stories that I read years
ago keep coming up in conversation.  Does anyone remember this one?

   The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot.
It is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of
their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day.  If they stay out
too long, they are burned to a crisp.  At night, the temperature
drops below the freezing point (of bodies), so they can't go out at
night either.

   The people of the story have an extremely short lifespan -- like
8 days, I think.

   The protagonist, I recall, discovers a wrecked spaceship on the
planet's surface.  He realizes that he cannot both explore the ship
AND return to his home before the sun fries him.

   Does this sound familiar?  Or was it just the eggnog? :-)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 86 05:05:44 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!ilacqua@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Elizabeth Lear)
Subject: Re: Bambi/Godzilla

dam@uvacs.UUCP (Dave Montuori) writes:
>Does anybody know what other collections "BmG" (or "Bambi's
>Revenge") can be found in?

  Most likely, you can pick it up at your local videoplace on a tape
titled "Hardware Wars and Other Farces" (which also includes "Pork
Lips Now" and "Closet Encounters of the Nerd Kind").
   I originally saw all of these on HBO as fillers ... funny stuff!

eliz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 86 09:21 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #402

>Also, does anyone know if that assessment of the fanzine
>contributors as being "90 percent" women is true?

Oh, at least!  And almost all of the editors are female, too.  ST
fandom as a whole is closer to 50/50, but the really active Trek
fans, and especially writers, are almost all female.  Yes, it seems
odd given the male majority of SF fandom, but it's true.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Dec 86  21:15:02 EST
From: Sigel%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andrew Sigel)
Subject: Star Trek fanzine writers

While I haven't any empirical studies to quote, I would say that the
claim that women constitute 90 percent of the fanzine
writing/publishing population in Star Trek fandom is likely to be an
accurate one.  Please ase that the article in question was referring
to Star Trek fandom, as distinct from general fanzine fandom.
There, the ratio is heavily male, though probably not as extreme as
nine to one.

I have no idea what the ratio would be if all fanzine publishers
were lumped together in one group.  And given the distance that
general fanzine fandom tries to keep between it and "media" fandom
(e.g., Star Trek, Star Wars), I doubt anyone will be willing to make
a determination.

Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 86  19:55:49 EST
From: nutto%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: ***---<<<CREATION CONVENTION>>>---***

The new year begins with all the fun of a big CREATION CONVENTION
coming back to the Boston, Ma area!

CREATION is starting its 17th year of providing big-name quests and
entertaining events for fans around the nation.

Join us JANUARY 3 and 4, 1987 at THE HYATT REGENCY CAMBRIDGE HOTEL,
575 MEMORIAL DRIVE in CAMBRIDGE, MA. The convention is open from
11AM to 7PM daily.

Guest stars:
NICHELLE NICHOLS - UHURA of STAR TREK
JANET FIELDING - TEGAN of DOCTOR WHO
ARTHUR ADAMS - MAVEL COMIC, LONGSHOT & THE X-MEN
TONY OLIVER - voice of ROBOTECH's RICK HUNTER

Star Trek, Doctor Who, Comic Books, Blake's 7, Robotech, Japanese
Animation, and Artwork.

Trivia Contest & No Minimum Bid Auction

Convention Hotline 1-718-343-0202

------------------------------

Date: 16 December 1986, 11:26:55 EST
From: "Nicholas J. Simicich"  <NJS@ibm.com>
Subject: Iron Monger Jim's Address

Some of my checks were misprinted, and they never made it to my bank
to get paid.  I wrote a whole book of these checks at Worldcon, and
have managed to retrieve all of them except for two that I wrote to
Iron Monger Jim, a huckster who frequents conventions in the
midwest, I'm told.  I'd like to get in touch with him and repay him,
but I don't have his address.  I wrote to the Atlanta Worldcon (and
included a stamped self-addressed envelope) but they never replied.

If someone could send me his address, I'd appreciate it.

Bitnet/VNET:  NJS at YKTVMX
Arpa/Csnet:  njs@ibm.com
UsMail:
Nick Simicich
522 N. James St.
Peekskill, NY  10566
Phone: (914) 789-7033 or (914) 737-1908.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 10:10:55 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
To: valid!jao
Subject: Pohl and math

[long exposition on mathematic flaws in "The Gold at the Starbow's
End"]

   You're making a basic error yourself. Spaces don't go away; since
the number you produce is a product of primes, the absence of a
prime as a factor shows that the character represented by that prime
is a space (e.g., in Pohl's example the number representing "John
lives." (or any longer text beginning with those words) will not be
divisible by 11, telling us that the 5th character is a space).
   wrt to the msg number, I suspect that Pohl (who has done quite a
bit of playing with number theory and probably has a reasonable
grasp of arithmetic) may have wanted to use multi-stage exponents
(e.g., a**(b**c), which would certainly give you gigantic
compressions---9**(9**9) is in the range of 10**8 \digits/) and been
stumped by the limited typography available in a commercial
magazine. (His late partner Cyril Kornbluth has a marvelous line in
"Gomez", which begins around an abstruse query in atomic physics
from a teen-age immigrant genius, about the riot there would have
been in the composing room had the kid's letter not been reworked
before it was sent to be typeset.) This doesn't excuse the book
(although Doubleday is one of the cheaper hardcover publishers and
may have made the same constraints), although in books mistakes in
abstruse formulae are often the result of non-technical
proofers---cf the attempt at representing ethanol in Joe Haldeman's
"The Universe in a Mason Jar"
   I also think that you're relying much too much on "common sense".
The point of the Godel encoding is that it sacrifices efficiency of
{en,de}coding for compactness of message---in fact, given that
you're allowed a leftover (per Pohl's example) there are probably
several possible codes, of increasing compactness and difficulty of
discovery, for any large message. If you use exponents of arbitarily
many stages (a**(b**(c**(d**...)))) you can dig awkward but huge
chunks out of huge numbers. Difficult? Yes. Inconceivable? Well, the
whole point of tGatSE is that these people were the subject of an
experiment in developing genius---an experiment which succeeded far
beyond the dreams of the experimenters (cf THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER on
the dangers to small men of attempting to develop tame geniuses). I
suspect that the proof of the minimum size needed to encode a
message of 10eX digits couldn't be formulated or understood by
anyone on this net; I know someone who \might/ be able to do
something with this if it were his area (which I don't understand at
all, I just know there are maybe a dozen other people in the world
who do).

Chip Hitchcock
ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM
uu: {decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 10:22:41 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: What Frederik Pohl doesn't know about mathematics
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

... Asimov probably does.

My memory is a bit vague, but I seem to remember reading an
Asimovian description of Skuese (sp???) number.  This is the number
at which the distrubution of primes changes, or some such equally
useless mathematical trivia.  He builds up an entire system of
notation, and tries to describe just how big this number is.  He
ends up by saying that it is in the order of: if you define space as
being made up of quantum cubes the size of atoms, and you take every
'cube' of space in the entire universe and take the factorial of
this number, and use the result as an exponent ... you don't even
come close!  Then he goes on to try and explain a Super-Skuese
number ...

I'm sure I have not got the details of his explanation correct, but
I remember being totally boggled by it all.

Can anyone remember this, or am I making it all up?

Hugh

PS.  I flunked Maths when they started on Calculus, so no rude
comments please!

ARPA:   Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 86 10:53:58 GMT
From: ulowell!rickheit@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Erich Rickheit)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes:
>To continue our fantasy a little further, here is another
>consequence of twenty-digit telephone numbers.  Think of the
>possibilities of cosmic chaos, if dialing 27945015423811986385
>instead of 27945015243811986385 could put you at the wrong end of
>Creation...  This is no trifling example; look well and carefully
>at those arrays of digits, savoring their weight and meaning,
>remembering that we may need every one of them to count the total
>tally of the stars, and even more to number the planets.

I hate to pick (no I don't! :) but last time I looked at a telephone
dial, the digits had numbers associated with them. If you dial with
characters rather than digits, you can access close to 4e31
different locations. It's easier to memorize something like
'MikesBarAntares' than _any_ number. If you allow thirty characters,
part of the address you dial is the name of the system/planet.
Alternately, you first dial the operator, say 'Antares information,
please,' and then get the local operator to zap you around.

This is all sort of academic anyway. What really happens, is, you
tell your computer 'I wanna go visit my uncle Joe on Betelgeuse,'
and your computer looks in it's database and says 'You mean the rich
one or the one with the wife with the big knockers?' and you say,
'the knockers, of course' and boom (or whatever noise a teleporter
makes) there you are. That sort of thing is just about current
technology. We'll be there in 5,10 years, tops.

I don't see, though, what dialing has to do with an empire. The
roman and british empires got along fine without having to remember
phone numbers.  Through most of history, there has been a special
occupation, the navigator, to get you from where you are to where
you want to go. If you feel people can't handle this, sic a computer
on it.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 86 20:49:36 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Niven's remark on transporter booth numbers in a galactic
>civilization demonstrates a common belief among science fiction
>writers: that we will still be the same old homines sapientes
>thousands of years in the future.  I'm so sure that by the time we
>have transporter booths with an interstellar range, we will not
>have some way of boosting the capabilities of human memory and
>other forms of cognition.  Right.  I think that it is more likely
>we will at least double human intelligence within a century, thanks
>to molecular engineering, viral surgery, and so forth.
>Neuro-electric interfacing is not more than thirty years away, you
>know....

Gee Whiz, Tim - this is one of those subjects that has been explored
many times, in many ways in science fiction nominally lacking in any
objective literary merit!!!  Most science fiction is, after all,
food for the inquiring mind, not the critical mind.

The big questions is whether such augmentation will have any
significant application to the mass population, or on our basic
social interactions.  Human nature, except for a little gloss, seems
not to have changed much over the last 10, 100, 1000... years.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
phone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 86 17:37:32 GMT
From: ubc-cs!manis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

Eric Rickett discusses the use of alphabetic phone codes for
interstellar communication, and suggests phone numbers such as
"MikesBarAntares" (I prefer "(Antares)MikesBar", or even
"Continent1%MikesBar@Antares").  [Actually, given that Antares is a
red giant, I suspect Mike's is a pretty hot place.]

But given the difficulty of centralising phone codes, I suspect the
address will be something more like

   Rigel!Procyon!Sirius!Alpha_Centauri_A!Antares!MikesBar

(Yes, it does zigzag all over the place, but have you ever looked at
a uucp mail path?)

That's the reason that I have to dismiss (regretfully) the
possibility of an interstellar empire of the Trantor variety. It's
all fine to talk about governing several quadrillion people, but the
distances (even at FTL speeds) and number of planets would make
agreeing on anything almost impossible.

One might argue that technology would overcome that (the lack of
double entry bookkeeping was one of the factors that severely hurt
the Roman empire), but I suspect that fragmentation, rather than the
uniformity of any centralised system, would be the order of the day.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 86 0830-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #423
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Dec 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 423

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (4 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Fanzine Writers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 13:36:55 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (John White)
Subject: Star Trek IV

    This is beginning to get as silly as the whole _Aliens_ debates,
but here's my two cents, anyway:

    First, I would like to agree whole-heartedly with the spirit of
Mr Bill Kaufman's posting of 11Dec86 (circa 1700 GMT) as presented
next to last in the compilation V11N413 (which is shorter than
transposing the whole posting, but more confusing).  I found few
faults with STIV, and none at all with the _probe_, and why it was.
What's wrong with taking Spock's hypothesis and running with it?  He
presented a logical reason for the probe's presence - leave it at
that, and stop asking _WHY?_!
    (As to Uhura being able to hear the whales in space: the probe
was beaming modulated energy at the Earth.  Why couldn't the whales
also broadcast in energy as well as sound?  We probably wouldn't be
able to detect the energy in this day and age.)
    To Tom Courtney: I still have my Star Wars books, along with
over 2000 other books, including every Star Trek novel (including
movie novelizations) that exist so far.  Looking at the popularity
of Star Trek, it doesn't seem unlikely that the books will be in
reprint long after they stop renewing the video of the movie.  The
books are usually better, anyway.
    In re: movies vs books.  This has been done before (in the
aforementioned _Aliens_ debate), but I still think that until the
movie moguls realize that the paying public will sit thru a three
hour (or longer) movie to see it done right (for example, Dune
needed two more hours), we are going to need novelizations to give
up what the editor took away, or what the special effects man just
couldn't come up with under budget.  Whether a movie relys on the
book to make sense doesn't make it a bad movie (for example (putting
on my dweeb suit), 2001 was a masterpiece, but incomprehensible at
the end without the book).
    Lastly, Nurse (now Commander) Chapel was seen twice, in
Starfleet headquarters when it was blacked out under the influence
of the probe.  One scene had her talking into a headset, requesting
more power for the medical units.  Another had her and (I think)
Janice Rand doing something official-like in a pass-by shot.

    Now its time to get into my asbestous long-johns and await the
dragon-breath.....

jl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 03:24:14 GMT
From: ucdavis!cccallan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Allan M. McKillop)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship.

u557296199ea@ucdavis.UUCP writes:
>> I beg to differ with you my friend, but the starship that was
>> preparing to "rig a sail" was the USS North Dakota. I don't
>> recall hearing the name of the Captain but he was played by an
>> actor named Veejay Armitraj, a gentleman last seen by American
>> movie goers in the James Bond film "Octopussy". He played a
>> secret service operative that assisted Bond while he was in
>> India.  The name of his character in Octopussy was incidentally,
>> "Veejay". He is also a lesser known pro tennis. The only reason I
>> knew that he was commanding the USS North Dakota was that I have
>> a glossy that was handed out at the STIV premiere here in
>> Portland, OR. He was listed as "USS North Dakota Captain".
>
>I beg to differ with you, but it stated in the credits that
>Armitraj (sic?), who incidentally was a professional tennis player,
>played the captain of the USS *Yorktown*.

Once and for all, the man's name is Vijay Amritraj.  He _IS_ a
professional tennis player (ranked around #50 in the world).  He has
been doing both acting and playing professional tennis since his
role in Octopussy.  He has wins over all the top players including
Borg, Connors and McEnroe.  He has never been in the top 10, but has
been close a couple of years.

Allan McKillop
{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccallan (UUCP)
ucdavis!deneb!cccallan@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (INTERNET)
ammckillop@ucdavis                         (BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 86 23:11:11 GMT
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: EXTRA! EXTRA!  MAN SOLVES TIME PARADOX in ST IV!

Without any psuedo-scientific basis at all, I've come up with why
Kirk and the boys didn't mess up the future time-line by bringing
sweet Gillian home with them.  It also explains how they got through
the Gary Seven incident without a scratch (though it doesn't explain
how he eventually got the job as Control on THE EQUALIZER):

There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek: The
Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method.  Taking
Poetic License firmly in hand, I propose the following rule: going
into the past via the star-warp principle "aligns" you with history.
You can't change the past, and anything you do was MEANT to happen.
If Kirk had planned to go shoot his great-great-great-grandmother
while in SF, he would have been run over by BART, shot by a cop, or
something else to keep him from his appointed rounds (read:
Destiny).  Kirk and Spock could never have REALLY changed time in
the Capt. Christopher incident or with Gary Seven -- they just
thought they could (imagine they were a little nervous after their
encounter with The Guardian, which preceded the two warp-time
incidents).

The Guardian, however, being the product of a technology So Powerful
that it is Beyond Our Comprehension (and thus like MAGIC --
Nyah-ah-ah!) can actually change time (or at least change it for the
people who wander back).

Yeah, there are still problems (like beaming Capt. Christopher back
into himself -- I've NEVER figured that one out.  Seems like the
poor schmoe should have imploded or exploded or whatever, instead of
getting amnesia).  But I like this one, so I'll keep it.

I'll expect my Pulitzer next week, thank you...

Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
ARPA:         fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.EDU
Manual UUCP:  {uw-beaver,sun,allegra,sb6,lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 86 13:57:20 PST
From: crash!pnet01!mhughes@nosc.ARPA (Mari Hughes)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #416/Time Travel Paradoxes

Several people have mentioned that Gillian going to the 23rd
Century, "George" and "Gracie" being saved from being turned into
perfume and Chekov leaving behind a phaser and communicater are all
things that would effect the future.  Several reasonable
explanations as to why the effects of these things would be minimal
have been offered.

But NO ONE seems concerned with what I consider to be the MAJOR
"no-no" performed by the crew of the Enterprise: don't you think
that Scotty showing that Plastics Engineer the formula for
"Transparent Alluminum" -- years ahead of it being discovered
naturally -- would have a major impact on the future?  Scotty tosses
out "how do we know this isn't the guy that invented it" but that
doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me to take such as risk!
Does the book make any further references to this?

Oh.  As long as we are quibbling about leaving/taking stuff...Don't
forget that Kirk sells his glasses to the antiques dealer...with the
explanation that he is seeding the future with them so McCoy can buy
them again.  I wonder if when he gets back to the future, he finds
he still has them?  This reminds me off a time travel story with a
toy car that gets into an infinite "time travel" loop....wish I
could remember more of it!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 86 17:45:03 EST
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Star Trek Fanzines--Article from the NY Times (LONG)

The following is from the November 16, 1986 Sunday New York Times
Book Review

someone on SF-LOVERS has mentioned it, I thought others might like
to see it.  Two warnings: It's pretty long, and I have not been able
to refrain from some scattered comments, set off in brackets from
the main text.

(deleted)

[Moderator's Note:  This article was too long for one issue.  The
second part will be in the next digest.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Dec 86 0836-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #424
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 86 0836-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #424
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Dec 1986    Volume 11 : Issue 424

Today's Topics:

          Films - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home  (7 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Fanzine Writers & Books into Movies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 14:44:54 GMT
From: sfsup!kumar@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship.

Allan writes:
> Once and for all, the man's name is Vijay Amritraj.  He _IS_ a
> professional tennis player (ranked around #50 in the world).  He
> has been doing both acting and playing professional tennis since
> his role in Octopussy.

For those who are interested, Vijay played a cop from India in the
now canned NBC series "The Last Precinct".

For those in the NY-NJ area, he now has a role in the Channel 11
sindication "What a Country!" on Saturdays at 6.00pm.

Manish Kumar
email:ihnp4!attunix!kumar
line: (201)-522-5040.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 86 14:49:02 GMT
From: paone@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Paone)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship.

The words were clearly USS Yorktown.  I don't remember what the
novel said, but there wasn't any doubt about waht was said on
screen.

Phil Paone
paone@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 86 22:08:17 GMT
From: minnie!ihm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ian Merritt)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV; Constitution vs. Constellation class

Not to stir up the dust again (though I am sure it will) the STIV
book makes reference to the Constellation class when refering to the
Enterprise II.

uucp:   ihnp4!nrcvax!ihm

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 86 16:35:04 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: EXTRA! EXTRA!  MAN PICKS NIT IN TIME PARADOX SOLUTION!!

moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes:
> There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek:
> The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method.

C'mon, Moriarty!  You should know better!  There are at least four
known methods.  The Guardian, stellar flyby, antimatter implosion,
and the "Atoz library" method.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 86 21:28:30 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV - Damaged Starship.

peter@omepd.UUCP (Peter Auseklis) writes:
>I beg to differ with you my friend, but the starship that was
>preparing to "rig a sail" was the USS North Dakota. I don't recall
>hearing the name of

   It is really interesting to hear you say that, since the Cmdr.
Starfleet says, " Get me the Yorktown." immediately before he
appears.  Somebody's in error, and since the Yorktown is what it was
called in the film my money is on it.

UUCP:cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
CSNET:vnend@engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Dec 86 14:48:08 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek universe

From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)

>... David Gerrold [was asked] would it be military or civilian?
>Gerrold's response was, "Your thinking is locked into military and
>civilian.  Can't there be another way?" This got a lot of applause.

  I have noticed that there seem to be no private organizations in
the Star Trek universe, only government agencies of various sorts.
I find this very depressing.  Wouldn't it be nice if the new
Enterprise was privately owned and operated?

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 86 10:40:48 cst
From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
Subject: James T. Kirk

In the Star Trek episode "The Conscience of the King" Kirk was
presented as having survived a planetary holocaust of some type.  He
was supposed to be able to identify the man responsible for the
deaths of millions of people because as a young child Kirk had seen
the man .  How does this fit into his boyhood on an Iowa farm?

Jessie Tharp ops@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 86 17:45:03 EST
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Star Trek Fanzines--Article from the NY Times (LONG)

[Moderator's Note:  This is the second part of the article from the
previous digest about fanzine writers.]


(deleted)

[reproduced without permission from the New York Times of 11/16/86]

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 86 01:54:25 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Movies vs. novelizations thereof

ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes:
>vis@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Tom Courtney) writes:
>> Boo, hiss. The book is the book, and the movie is the movie. If
>> one is needed for the other to make sense, then someone fell down
>> on the job. Since the movie
>Quite true. Unfortunately, it happens a lot, look back to "Alien".

May I point out that some scenes don't translate to movie form too
well.  (This was the biggest problem with DUNE.)  Two examples that
should make my point: the final sequences of both 2001: A SPACE
ODYSSEY and THE BLACK HOLE.

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm
...cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


