BABYL OPTIONS:
Version: 5
Labels:
Note:   This is the header of an rmail file.
Note:   If you are seeing it in rmail,
Note:    it means the file has no messages in it.

0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jan 87 0920-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:

                  Administrivia - Happy New Year,
                  Books - Ackerman (3 msgs) & Anderson & Barr &
                          Blish (4 msgs) & Brust & Cherryh &
                          Farmer & Herbert

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 08:27:02 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Happy New Year

   Well folks, here it is beginning of January and the start of a
new year of SF-LOVERS.  This past year has been hectic with many
changes in the way network mail is handled.  Our mailer here is
gasping and wheezing but still hanging in there so I expect we will
be able to continue for another year without problems.
   Let me take a moment to remind everyone of the wonderful(?)
stuff in the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers:

   T:<Sfl>
* Archive.V1
* Archive.V2
* Archive.V3
* Archive.V4
* Archive.V5
* Archive.V6
* Archive.V7
* Archive.V8
* Archive.V9
* Archive.V10
 Down-In-Flames.Txt.1
 Drwho.Guide.1
 Galactica.Guide.1
 Hitch-Hikers-Guide-To-The-Net.Txt.1
 Hugos.Txt.2
 Klingonaase.Txt.1
 Lost-In-Space.Guide.1
 Nebulas.Txt.4
 Outerlimits.Guide.1
 Prisoner.Guide.2;P777700
 Sf-Lovers.Apr86.1
   .Aug86.1
   .Feb86.1
   .Jan86.1
   .Jul86.1
   .June86.1
   .Mar86.1
   .May86.1
   .Nov86.1
   .Oct86.1
   .Sep86.1
 Star-Trek.Guide.1
 The-Enchanted-Duplicator.Txt.1
 Twilight-Zone.Guide.1

   Files marked with an asterisk (*) are currently offline due to
space limitations.  If anyone wishes these files or for some reason
cannot get these files via ftp they should contact me.  All of the
online files are available via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP.  Please
folks, if FTP is unavailable to you do not ask me to mail you these
files.  I cannot do it.
   As a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be
added to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc.,
should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.  Submissions for the
digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.  If you use the wrong
address for the wrong purpose your message will get ignored.  Also,
please keep submissions to one topic.  That makes it a lot easier
for me to work with and it is easier for others to reply as well.
   In recent months, there has been some talk about changes with how
BITNET mail is handled.  At the moment, I would like to remind
everyone that sending mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST is still the only
officially supported way of receiving the digest.  An announcement
will be made if this ever changes.  If you know anyone who is
expecting to receive the mail on BITNET through one of the various
servers that people set up, please tell them that these servers are
not supported.
   And now I'd like to wish you all a healthy and happy New Year and
get back to the purpose of this digest - mainly talking SF!

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 16:44:17 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Forrest J Ackerman

> From: uwmacc!oyster   (Joel Plutchak)
>    Not being a Sci-Fi (that's just for the easily riled in the
> audience) fan, but merely a voracious reader of said literature
> (that's another one), I have read about Forry Ackerman in some of
> P. J. Farmer's great bad novels.  I assumed that he was a
> fictional amalgam of the worst traits of fandom all rolled into
> one character.  Now, I see that he may indeed be a real person.
> If so, is he like the fellow of the same name who appears in the
> Farmer novels?  And, more importantly, would he be upset by my
> "worst traits" description? :-)

Forry Ackerman is definitely a real person. He's one of the
"dinosaurs" of sf fandom and has one of the largest private
collections of sf/fantasy books and memoribilia in the world.  He's
perhaps best known as the editor of the fantasy film magazine FAMOUS
MONSTERS OF FILMLAND.

As for your "worst traits" questions, I can't answer the second
(though I've never heard of him taking offense at anything), but for
the first, consider: (1) all of his writing contains the most
excrutiatingly bad puns (and I mean bad bad, not good bad) you're
ever likely to read, and (2) he was the one who first coined the
term "sci-fi".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 86 13:07:41 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Forrest J Ackerman

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> As for your "worst traits" questions, I can't answer the second
> (though I've never heard of him taking offense at anything), but
> for the first, consider: (1) all of his writing contains the most
> excrutiatingly bad puns (and I mean bad bad, not good bad) you're
> ever likely to read, and (2) he was the one who first coined the
> term "sci-fi".

Forry represents a lot of traits from somewhat bad to very good.  He
has done a lot that was good for fandom and a lot that was not so
good.  He is supremely well-intentioned.  He has had bad traits in
his time, but time has passed him by and go to any science fiction
convention in the country and you will see science fiction fans with
traits far worse than anything Forry ever had.  Recently Forry
celebrated his 50th anniversary in fandom and a magazine I saw (I
think it was Science Fiction Chronicle) ran an article that I at
first thought was on obituary.  I was surprised how relieved I was
when I realized it wasn't.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 87 15:01:55 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Forrest J Ackerman

Trivia bit, here.  I was going through some garbage books dating
back to my youth, and found the following bit in a piece of fiction
(based on a TV series).  You have until past the Control-L to guess
what series, and what book.

  "The man smiled.  With a light moustache and slightly receding
hairline, he resembled a fuller-faced Vincent Price, but without the
comic villany affected by the actor.  'My work,' he said.  'I
specialize in horror films.  ...  I took the opportunity to stop off
in Transylvania on my way north, and collect some facts on real
monsters.'
  "'You make horror movies?'
  "'No, just write about them.  I run a magazine devoted to the
subject -- Famous_Monsters_of_Filmland.  And a quarter of a million
readers consider me to be the world's greatest authority on
monsters, vampires, ghouls, amd werewolves -- not to mention
spaceships, mutants, time machines, and anything else you can think
of that Hollywood has ever used to scare audiences. ...'
  ...  [spoilers omitted]
  "'Ackerman.  Forrest J Ackerman -- no period on the J.  But call
me Forry.  Tell me all about them -- but first tell me if I can
publish it.'"

(c) 1966 by MGM
author David McDaniel
pub. Ace Books, NY, NY

This predated my encounters with Fandom, so as far as I could tell
back then, this was just fluff.  (Well, the whole book is, really.)

Ready?

The Man From U.N.C.L.E. #6, The Vampire Affair
FA is talking with Napoleon Solo.

curious, I thought.

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 17:01:44 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Poul Anderson's 'Sam Hall'

> From: Earl (Boebert @ MIT-Multics)
> I have been informed that the story with the epigraph " ...  oh my
> name is Samuel Hall .." is "Sam Hall" by Poul Anderson and is
> indeed about computer sabotage.  Now my question is: does anybody
> have the publication date, and, more importantly, is this the
> first hacker/penetration story?

First question: It first appeared in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION,
August 1953. It's also appeared in THE BEST OF POUL ANDERSON, Groff
Conklin's SCIENCE FICTION THINKING MACHINES, and Robert Hoskins' THE
LIBERATED FUTURE.

I can't answer the second question.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 16:40:56 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Donald Barr

> From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
> My packrat memory tells me that Donald Barr, the sf writer, is
> actually/also Donald Barr Chidsey, the historian/historical
> writer.  Try looking under this name -- probably (sigh) under
> "mainstream" (i.e., non-sf).

I don't think this is true. R. Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND
FANTASY LITERATURE has a biographical sketch that makes no mention
of a name other than "Donald Barr". A quote from Barr in this sketch
says that he generally writes non-fiction for children.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 17:57:47 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: BLACK EASTER quote

Local fan George Flynn noted that Selahny=Zelazny because of the
reference to Leviathan, since one of Zelazny's earliest famous
stories was "The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of his Mouth".

"Rosenblum=Robinson" isn't possible, since BLACK EASTER was printed
a few years before Spider's first published story (unless you're
thinking of Frank Robinson, a semi-mundane whose dates I don't know
but who seems unlikely to be referred to by Blish).

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 18:03:40 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: BLACK EASTER in-jokes

> From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>
> Father Selahny just about has to be Roger Zelazny; though I don't
> know the publication dates for "Creatures of Light and Darkness"
> or "Lord of Light", 1969 is certainly late enough (that's when you
> said BLACK EASTER was published) to account for the reference to
> incomprehensible parables.  Nice question; I have no clue to
> "Uccello", "Rosenblum" or "Atheling".  But let's go find and read
> the book, already!

LORD OF LIGHT was published in 1967 and CREATURES OF LIGHT AND
DARKNESS in 1969 (though an excerpt appeared in 1968).

I'm more inclined to believe that Selahny is Samuel Delaney, who
also tends to write parables. As others have pointed out, Atheling
is William Atheling, who is Blish himself under a pseudonym.

I have no idea who Uccello, Montieth, or Rosenblum are. Ron
Singelton suggested Spider Robinson for Rosenblum, but Spider didn't
appear on the scene for years later.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 86 15:02:57 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: BLACK EASTER in-jokes

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>I have no idea who Uccello, Montieth, or Rosenblum are. Ron
>Singelton suggested Spider Robinson for Rosenblum, but Spider
>didn't appear on the scene for years later.

Father Monteith ("a veritable master of a great horde of creative
(though often ineffectual) spirits of the cislunar sphere") is, I
believe, a British SF editor.

Father Selahny ("of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had
understood his counsel") has to be Roger "The Doors of His Face ..."
Zelazny.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 27 Dec 86 22:48:36-PST
From: Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Black Easter trivia

People are under the impression that the name "Selahny" in the James
Blish book BLACK EASTER really refers to Zelazny.  I think it's far
more likely that it means Samuel R. Delany.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 86 20:35:15 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Teckla

   The life of an assassin possesses a certain glamor (if you happen
to live), but when you come down to it, it's a rather callous and
immature way to make a living.  In Jhereg, Vlad had both his
financial and emotional incentives to make a living this way
reduced.  In Teckla, which takes place almost immediately after, it
is time for him, belatedly, to grow up.  This is made somewhat
urgent by his discovery that his wife is active in the next revolt.
(Medieval history, which I grant this is not, is replete with
peasant revolts; it doesn't record many successful ones.  Cities and
towns tended to buy their freedoms.)

   The book was something of a disappointment.  It reads a lot more
like "Brokedown Castle", than it does like "Jhereg".  I get the
feeling that the former is what Brust wants to be writing, while the
latter is what he excells at, which must be rough.  There's nothing
wrong with there being more to a book than 'merely' a story, but
it's a mistake for that 'more' to come at the *expense* of the
story.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (edu or bitnet)
(or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 86 19:18:28 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Chanur's Homecoming

"Chanur's Homecoming", by C.J. Cherryh, is out, and it was
definitely worth waiting for.  This book completes the story started
in "Chanur's Venture" and "The Kif Strike Back" (I'd love to know if
the publisher chose that title).  In those two books, the Pride of
Chanur (name of the ship, title of the prequel, and mild pun) finds
itself at the center of more and more convoluted plots.  In this
book those plots begin to unravel.  That it works as well as it does
is a credit to the author's writing and juggling abilities.

(The reason I'm not saying anything about the specific plot is not
to avoid spoilers but because there's no point.  If you've read the
earlier books you know what's happening.  If you haven't, you really
don't want to start in the middle.)

One of the points/jokes/tricks underlying the book is typical
Cherryh: Which of the species in the book is the one which cedes
authority to anyone with enough moxy to claim it and which turns,
swiftly and suddenly, upon those who have made serious mistakes or
who show appreciable weakness?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (edu or bitnet)
(or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 18:04:01 -0500
From: hmiller@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Farmer (Dayworld)

Somewhere around a year and a half ago I read Farmer's _Dayworld_
(which I enjoyed a great deal).  Does anyone out there know what the
plans are (if any exist) for a sequel (the ending certainly begs for
one), and when we can expect it?

Thanks in advance,
Herb Miller
ARPA: hmiller@athena.mit.edu
UUCP: ...seismo!burdvax!bmiller
BITNET: 208543614@VUVAXCOM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 86 20:35:43 GMT
From: elrond!adb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle)
Subject: CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE by F. Herbert

  I just finished ``Chapterhouse: Dune'' (the 6th in that wonderful
series), and am more then a little lost as to what happened at the
very end. (I have never said that I was at all clever 8-) I must
admit that I did kind of rush through it, and therefore may have
'skipped' over something I shouldn't have. But it would seem to me
that the last chapter is very strange, to put it mildly.

(I do remember the couple of references to the `net', and the `old
couple', but the last chapter still has me miffed!)

thanks for any help,
Al

ps. I must admit that I really enjoy Herbert's works (the 6 Dune
books ``White Plague'', and ``The Jesus Incident'' is all that I
have read however...)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jan 87 0944-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:

           Books - Adams & Bester & Brunner & Effinger &
                   Spinrad & Varley (2 msgs) &
                   Sentient Computers (4 msgs) & Torcs (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 02:47:40 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Drew <CEU1102%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: More Hitchhiker trivia and a defence of BBC special effects

Derrick%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa writes:
>    I just want to say that HHGTG did not start off as a book, but
>as a radio series. The cult that started here in Britain was based
>on this radio series, and with good reason.

   Exactly!  I have been waiting for someone to make this point!
All the books, records, TV series, more books, games, T-Shirts etc
are really just spin-offs, and to enjoy and to be stimulated by
HHGTG as I was in 1978 you just *have* to listen to the radio
series.  I was always rather disappointed with the books of
Hitchhiker, mainly because none of them seemed to capture the
original attitude of the radio series, and none of them contained
many of the quite remarkable events in the second radio series, ie
the cloning Lintillas and the strata of shoes she discovered.  I
also rather liked the landing of the Heart of Gold in the big cup,
and Ford, Arthur and Marvin's journeys down.

   However, I do disagree with the above writers' opinions on the TV
series: I viewed it considerable trepidation but I was very pleased
with how well it managed to display the images the radio series
created.  And I think the 'low budget special effects' somehow
helped along the whole general ridiculousness of some of the things
that happened.

   The record by Marvin the Paranoid Android was a typical
cashing-in on the popularity of the whole series gesture and
generally wasn't very good.  The double album of the first radio
series, (a different recording but with largely the same actors and
the same producer), with the duck on a red background on the cover,
and the single by Marvin, was released on Virgin Records here in the
UK and the album is still completely available.  The album wasn't
that bad actually, and this does contain 'It's only the end of the
World Again' which I also never thought was much good.  I suspect
neither were released in the USA, but a lot of Virgin's stuff over
there is distributed by A&M so you could try them.

   And now to a slightly different kettle of fish, (and rather
neatly I think); What is wrong with the BBC's special effects?  I
know they *look* a bit tacky sometimes, but I think things like Dr.
Who would be spoilt if they had effects of a Star Wars type in them.
And they *are* getting better: The Tripods was good wasn't it?  Also
don't slag off Blake's Seven: I went to school with Terry Nation's
son, Darryl Smith, (the family name is Smith not Nation fact fans),
for fourteen years and they live in the next village to me so watch
out.

   Another interesting fact is that they  filmed  the  prehistoric
earth  sequences  for  the  TV HHGTG on the Pennine moors around my
house in Oldham, Lancashire, and indeed Douglas  Adams  was  quoted
complaining about the weather in the Oldham Evening Chronicle thus:
'Most  places  seem to be generally cold and rainy or warm and dry,
but here we seem to have experienced all possible variations of the
English Climate in half an hour'.  Hence filming took longer than
expected, (perhaps causing the BBC to have to divert funds from
their special effects budget).

Drew Radtke
LADA
Chemical Engineering
University of Bradford, Bradford, UK

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 87 00:00:42 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester Story request.

cmcl2!chenj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James M.C. Chen) writes :-
>   The plot goes something like this.  While at a party, the
>protagonist happens to glance at a stranger who is a sort of
>mystery figure that the reader is lead to believe is either Lucifer
>or Prometheus, i.e. some sort of fallen angel possessing
>supernatural powers.  The mystery man has anciently dropped his
>guard and allowed a mortal to look him in the eye and see his inner
>self.  The effect of that single brief, glimpse drives this poor
>soul mad.  He slowly unravels; beginning to have progressively
>weirder dreams.
>
>   The stranger realizes what has happened and, being a benevolent
>being, tries to help.  By carefully guiding the dreams he salvages
>the man's sanity.

   This story (by Alfred Bester) was one I first found in an
anthology of his called "Starburst".  I was very pleased recently to
find the original publication of the story, in the March 1954
edition of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction (or F&SF.) I
cannot remember whether it had this title in the anthology (I think
not) but in the original magazine it was called "5,271,009".  The
protagonist was an artist called Jeffrey Halcyon and the stranger
was called Solon Aquila.  The whole thing is one of those weird
stories that F&SF specialise in.  I suppose you'd call it fantasy.

   As an anthology, I would recommend "Starburst" very highly; it
was the first book of what I will call "Non-Campbell" science
fiction that I ever read.  Some of Bester's ideas are quite
fantastic, although I am afraid I have not got around to buying any
more of his work.  Next time I see "The Demolished Man" in a shop, I
am going to buy it!

Derrick
<ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 87 07:34:15 GMT
From: styx!mcb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Seeking John Brunner bibliography

I am looking for a comprehensive bibliography of the book-length
works of John Brunner. I have some thirty-five of his books, but he
has published many more, and I would like to collect them all. I've
already tried several of the SF specialty stores and cannot find any
critical studies or bibliographies; if none exists, it might be fun
to construct one.

If you can assist, please correspond with me at the address below.
Thanks in advance.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.arpa
UUCP: ...!lll-lcc!styx!mcb
      ...!lll-crg!styx!mcb
      ...!ihnp4!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 16:41:48 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: George Alec Effinger

From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
> Several months ago, a short story by George Alec Effinger called
> "All the Last Wars at Once" was mentioned.  I have since lost
> track of what collections this story appears in.  Could someone
> help out?  Any of you bibliographers out there? jmb?

It first appeared in UNIVERSE 1, edited by Terry Carr, and also
appeared in, among other places, Carr's BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE
YEAR [#1], Silverberg's WINDOWS INTO TOMORROW, and Effinger's own
collection, MIXED FEELINGS.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 86 14:41:08 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Card - Spinrad's Comments

As an active member of the Science Fiction Writers of America, I
confirm the story that Norman Spinrad has indeed withdrawn all his
future works from contention for SFWA's Nebula awards, citing as the
reason the failure of his latest book to be nominated.  The
withdrawal was made via a full-page ad he took out in the SFWA
BULLETIN.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
"Uphill Climb," AMAZING STORIES Magazine, March, 1987.
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 86 18:24:44 GMT
From: cracraft@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE

My initial contact with Varley's work came many years ago when
members of sf-lovers strongly recommended his first short story
collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. To put it simply, I was awed
by this collection and thought it perhaps the best collection of
shorts I had ever read.

However, apart from TPOV, Varley's other works (OPHIUCHI HOTLINE,
BARBIE MURDERS, TITAN, WIZARD, DEMON, MILLENIUM) never made as much
an impact on me. Even his other stories in the "Eight Worlds"
universe as contained in OPHIUCHI HOTLINE and BARBIE MURDERS somehow
seemed to lack the special magic of TPOV.

So it was with considerable trepidation that I shelled out the money
to buy BLUE CHAMPAGNE. Here again, either my tastes have changed
over the years or Varley never really lived up to his initial
promise. BLUE CHAMPAGNE is a strong collection, a worthwhile
collection, but not a great collection.  Varley seems to have
overstepped his usual bounds into sentimentality. While he writes
truly great erotic fiction, I find his increasing and over- powering
sentimentality to become somewhat oppressive after awhile.

My personal favorite in this collection is "The Unabridged Phone
Book".  It is strongly recommended for all those right who favor the
stockpiling and manufacture of nuclear arms.

So on a scale of one to ten, I would rate BLUE CHAMPAGNE as a 7. We
may not yet have seen Varley's true blossoming as a writer, but as
the tone of this review implies, this reader is somewhat
disappointed.

Stuart Cracraft

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 02:51:11 GMT
From: clunk!don@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Don McKillican)
Subject: Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE

Stuart Cracraft writes:
> My initial contact with Varley's work came many years ago when
> members of sf-lovers strongly recommended his first short story
> collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. To put it simply, I was awed
> by this collection and thought it perhaps the best collection of
> shorts I had ever read.

I certainly have to agree with you here; the title story in
particular!

> BLUE CHAMPAGNE is a strong collection, a worthwhile collection,
> but not a great collection.  Varley seems to have overstepped his
> usual bounds into sentimentality. While he writes truly great
> erotic fiction, I find his increasing and over- powering
> sentimentality to become somewhat oppressive after awhile.

I was also disappointed in Blue Champagne, but for very different
reasons: what bothered me about the collection was the increasingly
tired, cynical, and even bitter tone of so many of the stories.
Especially, I must add, "The Manhatten Phone Book (Abridged)", which
borders on diatribe.  Even the much-praised "Press Enter" reminds me
more of Harlan Ellison than of the Varley of, say, "Daemon", which I
quite hugely and unashamedly loved (you will also gather I am not a
fan of Harlan Ellison :-)).

If this is the style that Varley wants to write in now, that is of
course his privilege; he does it well.  Nor have I any quarrel with
the people who enjoy it.  But when I compare the sense of joy and
wonder of "The Persistence of Vision" with the searing futility of
"The Manhatten Phone Book (Abridged)", or the weary horror of "Press
Enter", I too am disappointed.

Don McKillican
{utzoo,seismo}!mnetor!genat!clunk!don

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 16:38:35 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Fred Hoyle [sentient computers]

> From: diku!khan       (Klaus Hansen)
> Fred Hoyle:             The message from Andromeda (?)

It was A FOR ANDROMEDA, which had a sequel called ANDROMEDA
BREAKTHROUGH. They were by Fred Hoyle and John Elliot, and were
novelizations of BBC television serials written by the same two
authors.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 16:39:28 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Fredric Brown  [sentient computers]

> From: PUGH%CCX.MFENET@LLL-MFE.ARPA    (Jon Pugh)
> ...a great many of the best sentient computer stories were of the
> short variety. Including the first and most classic short-short
> where they fired up the first sentient computer and asked it "Is
> there a God?" and the computer said, "There is now!"  It was a one
> page story that I read LONG ago.  Perhaps Jerry can enlighten us
> as to where.

This story is "Answer" by Fredric Brown, and first appeared in his
collection ANGELS AND SPACESHIPS. It can also be found in THE BEST
OF FREDRIC BROWN. I first read it in a Damon Knight anthology, THE
METAL SMILE.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 86 16:53:14 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: 42 (asking questions of computers)

While not strictly a sentient computer story (but while we're on the
subject of asking 'em questions), there was a story about a the
first super computer where someone asks "What's the source of
humor?" and the answer was "Extra- Terrestrial."  I won't describe
the final results of this Q'n'A, but if someone could post the
author and title from this very basic outline, I *do* recommend the
story. Might have been William Tenn ('twas weird enough).

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
amdahl!krs

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 86 02:42:03 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: 42 (asking questions of computers)

krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes:
>While not strictly a sentient computer story (but while we're on
>the subject of asking 'em questions), there was a story about a the
>first super computer where someone asks "What's the source of
>humor?" and the answer was "Extra- Terrestrial."  I won't describe
>the final results of this Q'n'A, but if someone could post the
>author and title from this very basic outline, I *do* recommend the
>story. Might have been William Tenn ('twas weird enough).

Isaac Asimov, "Jokester"

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 86 21:00:56 GMT
From: tekred!richa@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rich Amber )
Subject: Request of assistance on use of Torcs

I am working on a fantasy novel set in Europe c.400-900AD +- a few
centuries. What I am searching for is correct historical information
on the uses of the torc throughout Europe (a device worn around the
neck that looks like a twisted collar).  Encyclopedic entries are
not too explicit, so I am turning to other fantasy works to find
what I can about this device.

Other than "The Golden Torc," do any of you know of fiction and/or
historical works that mention this device? Your input would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 86 00:56:32 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Request of assistance on use of Torcs

richa@tekred.UUCP (Rich Amber ) writes:
>I am working on a fantasy novel set in Europe c.400-900AD +- a few
>centuries. What I am searching for is correct historical information
>on the uses of the torc throughout Europe (a device worn around the
>neck that looks like a twisted collar).  Encyclopedic entries are
>not too explicit, so I am turning to other fantasy works to find
>what I can about this device.
>
>Other than "The Golden Torc," do any of you know of fiction and/or
>historical works that mention this device? Your input would be
>greatly appreciated. Thank you.

How about something by Jack Vance, "The Brave, Free Men" or the
novel on either side of it.  Of course those were explosive, which
may not be quite what you're looking for. 8-(.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jan 87 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:

             Films - Star Trek (12 msgs) & Dark Star &
		     Dune & SF Humor & Title Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86  12:27 EST
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Star Trek IV

   Seeing STIV is like having a meal of cotton candy and chocolate:
sweet, but not very satisfying. When I heard that the general theme
was a time-travel-to-save-the-whales story, my hopes fell. This
movie had the same flaw that 3 out of the 4 ST movies has: there is
no strong villanous personality to balance against Kirk and Co. Most
of the best ST episodes have our heros pitted against believable
deadly and/or interesting antagonists: Khan, Nomad, Harry Mudd, the
Gorn, the Horta, the Squire of Gothos, Gary Seven, Landru, Gorgon,
Gary Mitchell, not to mention myriad Klingon and Romulan captains.
   STIV starts with the oldest premise in SF: the aliens-destroying-
the Earth scenario. As soon as you find out what they want, you know
the rest of the movie: they travel into the past, have a few
(mis)adventures, get the damn whales, bring them back, and we have a
nice, sugary happy ending a la Star Wars.  Disappointingly enough,
this is just what happens.
   Some ways the movie could have been made more interesting: Having
a major character get killed off, so that some sacrifice was
involved in saving the Earth (Chekov would be ideal.) Giving the
whales some ideas of their own. Have the Klingons intercept Kirk's
message, and also travel into the past to try to stop Kirk from
preventing Earth's destruction.
   I do have a few good things to say about it, however. The humor
was subtle and well-used. I especially liked the line where Kirk
tries to explain Spock's weird behavior as a result of "...taking
too much LDS during the sixties". However, if you want to do a
comedy, go whole hog.  They should have gotten Roger Carmel before
he bit the dust, and we could have been seeing STAR TREK IV: THE
WRATH OF MUDD. Now THAT would have been a funny movie!
   That's why I feel that STII has still maintained its place as the
best ST movie to date. STI's incoherent plot was further debilitated
by the improbable V'ger (Nomad could kick its ass). I understand
that a lot of dialog that clarified things was omitted, and I would
like to see it again if Paramount ever releases a version with the
missing footage reinserted. STIII had a villan, but I still see
Reverend Jim every time I watch him ("Captain Kirk. You don't want
to give me the Genesis device? ....pffffff....Okey Doke.").
...pffffff....Okey Doke.").

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 12:39:57 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV -- Marketing

A query about movie production and marketing:

It seems to me, from my position completely outside the
movie/entertainment industry, that one of the best ways to increase
the attendance at a sequel movie is to be sure that the maximum
possible number of people have seen the preceeding movie in the
series. And the best way to do THAT is to show that preceeding movie
on network TV (NOT cable, especially premium channels, which have an
inherently limited exposure when compared with broadcast network TV,
which can reach some large percentage (90%+) of the population).

So, with ST IV, TVH due out as a Christmas movie, I would have
expected the producers to have arranged for the network premiere of
ST III, TSfS, sometime this last October or November. As we all
know, it didn't happen that way. Anyone know why?

Am I wrong in my assumptions listed above? Does TV-broadcast of a
preceeding movie NOT have that much effect on the box-office of a
sequel?

ST II, TWoK, has been aired on network TV. But I just cannot recall
how the dates of its broadcast(s) [I think it's been on network TV
only once, right?] related to the theatre-release date of ST III,
TSfS. Can anyone post specifics about that? That is, was it used as
a lead-in to its sequel, or was the third movie already released
when the second was first broadcast?

Thanks, regards, and a happy holiday season!

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 86 19:39 EST
From: <DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek Movie Poll

Hi there!

How about a Star Trek Movie poll?  Send me your vote for the best ST
movie including a short (very short) comment about why you think its
the best and I'll post back a summary and the outcome in the next
few weeks.

Live long and prosper!

Danny Choriki
The Graduate School of the City Univ. of New York
dac%cunyvms1.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 16:15:43 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV

From Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM:
> Personally, I find it hard to believe that nearly every single
> person has found this movie to be a wonderful movie -- better than
> STII:TWOK.  The Wrath of Kahn was such a classic movie, and this
> cannot compare.  Let me qualify by saying, I liked STIV, and I'm
> glad I saw it.  I just can't understand how all the long-time fans
> out there think it's better than STII....  So far, I guess I'm
> only the second person in the world not to be completely thrilled
> with this movie.  Doesn't ANYONE out there agree with some of the
> these points?

I agree with you completely!  Yes ST-III and ST-IV were good and
enjoyable movies.  Funny, witty, and good relief for frustrated Star
Trek fans everywhere.  But they just do not compare to ST-II:TWoK.
Perhaps someone who likes comedies better than adventure movies
would think that IV was better than II, but I don't think that IV
was all that deep.  Yes there were a few unexplained mysteries, but
some of them were never resolved and weren't all that important
anyway.  But TWoK had the adventure, the suspense, the "How's Kirk
gonna get out of this one" mystery.  The most suspense that TVH had
was during the slingshots, and that was no big deal.

TVH was a good movie for Star Trek fans.  It had alot of the
character interplay that fans grew to love through the years.  But
as far as just being an all around great movie, "The Wrath of Kahn"
still takes it.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 86 20:52:36 GMT
From: elxsi!billp@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bill Petro)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV; Constitution vs. Constellation class

ihm@minnie.UUCP (Ian Merritt) writes:
>Not to stir up the dust again (though I am sure it will) the STIV
>book makes reference to the Constellation class when refering to
>the Enterprise II.

To stir up the dust again, Vondra McIntyre's books are wrong.  If
you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have?  A horse has
four legs.  Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.  The
Enterprise has always been called a Constitution class ship in many
previous sources, "The Making of Star Trek", "The Star Trek
Technical Manual", etc.

Bill Petro
({ucbvax!sun,altos86,styx}!elxsi!billp)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 13:38:33 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: Whale songs

Maybe Uhura was just scanning channels at random, as she did in
Patterns of Force, and picked up the whalesong then. I still don't
know what how she picked them up, but this doesn't require her to be
expecting to find them. Or, she could she scanning air vibrations,
looking for whalesong...the Vulcan sensors, or maybe even Klingon
ones, might be able to pick up sound across vacuum that way. In
fact, this seems the most reasonable answer. Can we do it with 20th
century technology?

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 10:43:56 pst
From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
Subject: Conscience of the King

I believe that Kirk was stationed on the planet in question very
early in his career, not actually living there at the time.  You'll
probably need to find an uncut version of the episode to check on
this.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 86 16:23 EST
From: Thomas Whitaker <whit@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #409

From: dbj@Juliet.Caltech.Edu (David B. Jemison)
>I have now seen ST4 twice (agreeing with almost everyone that it is
>by far the best st movie).  While watching the opening credits the
>second time, I noticed a "Commander (?) Chapel" with (I thought)
>the same actress who played Nurse Chapel in the series.  However,
>neither my friend or I remembered seeing her in the movie.  Does
>anyone know where she appeared, or did I just imagine it (my friend
>noticed it also)?

Chapel had a very small walk-on in one of the panic scenes at UFP
headquaters.  She was seen on a communication-device saying
something about needing all the power available for the medical
banks.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 15:07:02 GMT
From: ece-csc!mauney@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jon Mauney)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV

bright@dataio.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:
>Scotty asks the plastics man to figure out how thick the plastic
>would have to be to withstand the pressure of 60,000(?) gallons of
>water on a panel x by y. The man says 'that's easy, 6 inches'. The
>problem as stated only makes sense if the water formed a column
>positioned directly over the plastic panel, but the panels clearly
>formed the wall of the aquarium, not the floor.

Easy.  The plastics man doesn't know anymore about hydrostatics than
Scotty does, nor is he really able to do those calculations in his
head, but last week he made a 1-inch-thick panel for a 10,000 gallon
tank, so he figures 6 inches must be good for 60,000 gallons.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. :-)

Jon Mauney
mcnc!ece-csc!mauney
North Carolina State University

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 87 15:37:18 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: Re:Constitution/Constellation

The Constellation was Matt Decker's ship in "The Doomsday Machine".
If it had been the class name ship (or whatever the naval parlance
is) I am sure that one of the bridge crew would have said something.
Right?

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 87 15:40:04 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: Time travel/TVH

When the Bounty came back to the future from the 20th century, for a
few minutes, they were there before they had left. This could lead
to interesting occurences, if explored further...

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri 02 Jan 1987 08:27 CST
From: <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek -- All this bickering

I have spent the last month and a half watching people on SF-Lovers
bicker over things that are fictional as though it were fact.  I go
to movies to ENJOY myself.  I am not going to movies to take as
gospel every bit of information presented in that medium. (or TV for
that matter.)  Why take seriously that which was originally intended
to entertain.  To do this, in my opnion, is to take away that
element that makes it enertaining, an escape, no matter how brief,
from reality.  Incidently, I have not seen in many a year something
that I would call "Science Fiction".  To me this is fiction that is
based on a author's extrapolation of science in the future from what
is now known to be true.  Everything else, in the realm of
literature that has to deal with other technologies, is "Science
Fantasy".  Star Trek falls well, by this definition, within Science
Fantasy.  Now that I have gotten all that out of my system, I'll
shut up....for now.

Sincerly,
Edward J. Lorden

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 86 13:25 PST
From: zaphod%wwu.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Dark Star

Can anyone tell me who did the voice of the computer in Dark Star?
I have a hunch, but I'm not quite sure.

Dave Brown
zaphod%wwu@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 17:04:37 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: DUNE (movie)

> From: nott-cs!pdc
> I heard a rumour somewhere that Dune the film, although cut down
> for general release was also available to cons and the like
> complete with the full plot done almost page by page. Is this true
> and has anybody seen the film if it does exist?
>
> PS I've just remembered in a book of Frank Herberts short stories
> there was something in it on his views on the film, and in that he
> mentioned that it might be released, full length as a mini series
> on the box. True or just speculation?

The only version of the film currently available is the one that was
released to the theaters. I've have heard from various sources that
all of the footage shot will be re-edited into a 5-hour (net, which
would most likely be 6 hours with commercials) mini-series for
television. When and if this ever happens is anyone's guess.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 86 08:27:05 GMT
From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: East Coast humorists

tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes:
>OK, there are two tapes that have been done up in the "What's Up
>Tiger Lily" style; You Say Yamoto... and Dr. Who And The Invasion
>Of The Croutons.  These were done by Phil Foglio and Nick (not
>Mike) Smith.

If anyone would be interested in showing their creations (I'm asking
the people with the right to show them to others) I would very much
like to hear from you.  You see, I'm the chairman of the San Diego
Comic Con (7,000 plus attendence) Video Channel and I would love to
show more original parodies.  We are also attemptineg to use the
channel as an outlet for new talent (such as new programs from the
biog companies) so this would be an ideal area to test market.

>"You Klingon sons, you killed my bastard!"
>J.T. Kirk in Peter David's ST III parody

Also the secondary title to the Hogu award to the film that year.

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 86 15:17:10 GMT
From: ihuxi!store2@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wilcox)
Subject: Re: Finding the Title

Speaking of forgotten titles, I have been trying to find the title
to a movie I saw years ago.  I remember little about the movie
except it was a parallel universe type of movie in which the hero
was trying to get back to the woman he loved.  I saw it on the late
movies at the time, so I'm sure it is at least 20 years old and I
think it was in black and white.  I also think it was set in
England, so it might have been a British movie.

Does anyone know if there is a definitive listing of SF/fantasy
movies with a short synopsis that I might find in the library or
somewhere?

Thanks...

Kit Kimes
AT&T--Information Systems Labs
1100 E. Warrenville Rd.
Naperville, IL 60566
...ihnp4!iwvae!kimes

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jan 87 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Bradbury (4 msgs) &
                        Ellison (2 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                        Zelazny (3 msgs) &
                        Generation Ship Stories (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 87 21:24:42 GMT
From: cracraft@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Foundation's Edge

Did anyone else like Foundation's Edge as much as I do?  It is
remarkable that Asimov was able to come back after 32 years and
write it so well.

Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 02:57:41 GMT
From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Re: YASR (Yet Another Story Request)

ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP (Daniel Jay Barrett) writes:
>The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot.  It
>is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of
>their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day.  If they stay out
>too long, they are burned to a crisp.  At night, the temperature
>drops below the freezing point (of bodies), so they can't go out at
>night either.
>
>   The people of the story have an extremely short lifespan --
>like 8 days, I think.
>
>   The protagonist, I recall, discovers a wrecked spaceship on the
>planet's surface.  He realizes that he cannot both explore the ship
>AND return to his home before the sun fries him.

I think it's "Fire and Ice", by Ray Bradbury.  Bradbury is probably
the person most responsible for my adult attachment to science
fiction, since he dared to write stuff for children that actually
stretched their minds.

Great stuff, too!

G. T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU
gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 86  09:09 EST
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Story Request Reply

>   The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot.
>It is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of
>their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day.  If they stay out
>too long, they are burned to a crisp.  At night, the temperature
>drops below the freezing point (of bodies), so they can't go out at
>night either. The people of the story have an extremely short
>lifespan -- like 8 days, I think.

   This story is "Frost and Fire" by Ray Bradbury. It is in the book
"R is for Rocket". (or is it "S is for Space"). It supposedly takes
place on Mercury. Excellent story!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 17:38:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Story request answer (Ray Bradbury)

From:   jhunix!ins_adjb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
>   The people of the story have an extremely short lifespan -- like
> 8 days, I think.

It's "Frost and Fire" by Ray Bradbury, originally from the Fall 1946
PLANET STORIES, and also in Bradbury's collection R IS FOR ROCKET.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 29-Dec-1986 1405
From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Pre-owned software, cheap!)
Subject: story request: hot/cold/short lives

>  The short story takes place on a planet which is extremely hot.
> It is so hot, in fact, that the people can only venture outside of
> their homes (caves?) for about an hour each day.

The story is "Ice and Fire" by Ray Bradbury... I believe it may be
in "The Golden Apples of the Sun", but I'm not certain about that.
Great story... I've probably read it 20 times (and I can *never*
remember which collection to look for it in!)

Dave Butenhof
ZKO2-3/K06
Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062
DEC ENET: clt::butenhof
ARPANET:  BUTENHOF%CLT.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM
UUCP:     {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!clt.dec.com!butenhof

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 17:42:39 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: THE STARLOST

From:   vax1!jsm        (Jon Meltzer)
> Ed Bryant novelized "Phoenix Without Ashes". Ellison's script was
> published a few years ago in a (Roger Elwood?) anthology of SF
> drama.

I suspect you're confusing this with Ellison's STAR TREK script,
"City on the Edge of Forever", which appeared in Elwood's SIX
SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS (1976).

"Phoenix Without Ashes" (the teleplay) *was* published, but in
FASTER THAN LIGHT, edited by Jack Dann and George Zebrowski (1976).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 86 13:27:47 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> From: vax1!jsm        (Jon Meltzer)
>> Ed Bryant novelized "Phoenix Without Ashes". Ellison's script was
>> published a few years ago in a (Roger Elwood?) anthology of SF
>> drama.
>I suspect you're confusing this with Ellison's STAR TREK script,
>"City on the Edge of Forever", which appeared in Elwood's SIX
>SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS (1976).
>
>"Phoenix Without Ashes" (the teleplay) *was* published, but in
>FASTER THAN LIGHT, edited by Jack Dann and George Zebrowski (1976).

Sorry, jaymebee, but the original poster is correct.  Edward Bryant
did indeed novelize Harlan Ellison's STARLOST pilot script *PHOENIX
WITHOUT ASHES*.  Ellison's "I Don't Think We're in Kansas Anymore,
Toto" essay had its first appearance as the introduction to this book.
A good novelization, and something of a collector's item.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 86 01:13:21 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: So someone finally noticed?

wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher)...
>To further confuse the issue...  I remember a story about people
>stuck on a generation ship and not knowing it. A mutiny killed off
>most of the crew. The protagonist escaped in the last lifeboat,
>after finding the ships log. He had a large friend, all muscle/no
>brain killed in the climax.  This story FAR predated STARLOST.
>Does it ring any bells?

So someone else noticed that there are one H*LL of a lot of
imitations of Heinlein's UNIVERSE out there, huh?  (Or was even
*that* an imitation of something earlier?  If so, I haven't been
able to find the original.)  I wondered how long it'd take...  David
Gerrold has done at least two (YESTERDAY'S CHILDREN and THE GALACTIC
WHIRLPOOL), to name one repeat offender off the list...

Brandon S. Allbery
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 87 12:16:26 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: So someone finally noticed?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that UNIVERSE by Heinlein was not
the first such story.  Someone else did one in the thirties or
forties, but his was so much better that it is his that everyone is
getting the idea from.  Sort of like Asimov and robot stories.

On the other hand, I am not sure about this.  I think I read it in
something Asimov wrote, but that doesn't do much good in narrowing
down the source!

Tim Smith
USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim
Compuserve: 72257,3706

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 86 00:44:06 GMT
From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy)
Subject: Amber

A while back there was a discussion of the Amber series.  (The two
series, first of five books, and second of two books - so far.)  Did
anyone save the discussion, because I have just finished reading the
two series and am interested in other opinions.  I have some guesses
as to what certain things mean - like the Keep of Four Worlds, and
the "off the wall" last three pages in Blood of Amber.  If anyone
has information like this I would like to hear it.

Robert Cademy
UUCP: ...!sdcsvax!sdsu!cademy
ARPA: sdsu!cademy@{nosc|sdcsvax}

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 87 16:26:49 GMT
From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy)
Subject: Re: Amber

stiber@zeus (Michael D Stiber) writes:
>I didn't know about the second series.  Can someone post info in
>it?  (no spoilers, please)

The second series has two books in it (so far).  These are called:
   1) Trumps of Doom    (1985)
   2) Blood of Amber    (1986)

However, I must warn you that the second book leaves you hanging.
It is defined as a trilogy, but then again, so was the first series
from what I understand.

Robert Cademy
UUCP: ...sdcsvax!sdsu!cademy
Arpa: sdsu!cademy@{sdcsvax|nosc}

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 87 15:18:38 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Amber

cademy@sdsu.UUCP (Robert Cademy) writes:
>is defined as a trilogy, but then again, so was the first series
>from

Not so.  RZ's first idea (I understand) was to write one novel from
each of the sibs' viewpoints -- nine?  Then he got tired halfway
through (started writing himself in & other boredom- relieving
tricks), and decided to end it; but various characters knocked on
his head (he says) and made him write a couple more.  And then
characters he hadn't originally had in mind started appearing ...

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 86 04:58:05 GMT
From: ncoast!wb8foz@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

>I suspect you're confusing this with Ellison's STAR TREK script,
>"City on the Edge of Forever", which appeared in Elwood's SIX
>SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS (1976).

To further confuse the issue...

I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not
knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist
escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had a
large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax.  This story
FAR predated STARLOST.  Does it ring any bells?

decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!wb8foz
ncoast!wb8foz@case.csnet
(ncoast!wb8foz%case.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 86 15:04:29 GMT
From: ihlpa!lew@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

> I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not
> knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist
> escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had
> a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax.  This
> story FAR predated STARLOST.  Does it ring any bells?

Yes, that rings a bell, although I'm sure it's not the same story.
I remember one about a youth who has to make a trek through the
different parts of the ship as his rite of passage into manhood. He
is an "enginer".  All the different parts of the ship are called
"The Place of the ...". I think he's from "The Place of the
Enginers".

He goes through the agricultural section ( I don't recall its place
name ) and sees rain ( artificial of course ) for the first time. He
ends up in The Place of the Revellers whose inhabitants are
ironically confined to wheel chairs since they have grown so
lethargic from watching videos of sports events that their limbs
have atrophied. I remember this place name because I didn't know
what "reveller" meant.

He discovers some sort of archive and finds out that the ship is
approaching its programmed landing.  He has to convince people that
action must be taken so they won't crash. They land safely and the
story ends with them breathing fresh air on the surface of their new
planet.

This story is circa 1960.

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 86 19:33:19 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) writes:
> I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not
> knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist
> escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had
> a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax.  This
> story FAR predated STARLOST.  Does it ring any bells?

Is this the story line for "Orphans of the Sky" by Robert Heinlein?
If so, it was originally published in "Astounding" in 1941.

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
amdahl!krs

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 86 20:49:31 GMT
From: wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade Blomgren)
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) writes:
> I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not
> knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. .....

Is this possibly "Orphans of the Sky" by Heinlein? It was also
released under another title (What was that title?) As I remember it
was a relatively short book.

Wade
UCSD
...sdcsvax!sdacs!wade

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 86 15:34:17 GMT
From: druhi!bryan@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP writes:
> To further confuse the issue...  I remember a story about people
> stuck on a generation ship and not knowing it. A mutiny killed off
> most of the crew. The protagonist escaped in the last lifeboat,
> after finding the ships log. He had a large friend, all muscle/no
> brain killed in the climax.  This story FAR predated STARLOST.
> Does it ring any bells?

That's Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky", published (I think)
originally in two parts: "Universe" and "Common Sense".

The main character's name is Hugh Hoyland, and the "all muscles"
character is a "Mutie" (taken either from "Mutant", cause they're
all exposed to radiation all the time, or "Mutineer", cause they're
supposedly the descendants of the mutineers who managed to kill off
much of the crew) named "Bobo."  There's also this two-headed Mutie
named "Joe-Jim" (you can guess why).

John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems
12110 N. Pecos, #8C350
Denver, CO  80234
USENET:  ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
PHONE:   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 02:07:23 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

wb8foz@ncoast.UUCP (David Lesher) writes:
> I remember a story about people stuck on a generation ship and not
> knowing it. A mutiny killed off most of the crew. The protagonist
> escaped in the last lifeboat, after finding the ships log. He had
> a large friend, all muscle/no brain killed in the climax.  Does it
> ring any bells?

This sounds like a trilogy by Ben Bova that I read as a child, so I
don't remember the name.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 02:49:18 GMT
From: unirot!carroll@rutgers.rutgers.edu (mark carroll)
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

  The story you describe sounds like a Heinlein book, called( I
think), Generation Ship. Im not sure of the title, since I it was a
library book I read 6 years ago, but I am sure its by Robert
Heinlein.

Mark Carroll
rutgers!carroll@RU-AIM.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 14:09:38 GMT
From: mende@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende)
Subject: Re: THE STARLOST

> This sounds like a trilogy by Ben Bova that I read as a child, so
> I don't remember the name.

    That is the Exiles Triology by Ben Bova... I read it a few years
ago..

Bob Mende
ARPA: mende@caip.rutgers.edu
UUCP: {anywhere}!rutgers!caip!mende
Snail: RPO 4888          CN 5063
       New Brunswick NJ  08903

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 87 0842-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Bradley (8 msgs) & Brust

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 13:14:43 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

stiber@zeus (Michael D Stiber) writes:
>I just finished reading _Darkover Landfall_, and would now like to
>read the other Darkover books.  Does someone have a bibliography,
>in chronological order (Darkover time)?  It would be nice to be able
>to read the books in "historical" order.  Thanks!

I don't have this info handy, but I would suggest *NOT* trying to
read the books in Darkover order, but rather in the order in which
they were published.

The books span MZB's writing career and display a lot of character
development on the part of the author.  You will probably find the
stories more consistant if you follow along.

Now personally, I think somewhere along the way MZB watched one too
many soap opras and lost it, moving from sense of wonder fantasy to
endless inter/intra personal conflict...still worth reading,
although tastes may vary.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 18:46:21 GMT
From: unirot!liz@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mamaliz )
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

stiber@zeus (Michael D Stiber) writes:
>Does someone have a bibliography, in chronological order (Darkover
>time)?

Don't bother reading the books in chronological order.  They really
do not work that way (Bradley is not one to stay with an outdated
character).

Instead read them in this order or something like it

The Spell Sword
The Forbidden Tower
The (Something - don't have the books with me) Sun
The rest of them as you pick them up.

Darkover Landfall is one of the weakest books in the series, the
other books deal ideas that some people find uncomfortable.  They
are also written in various styles which other people find
uncomfortable.  If you don't like one, you can always try another.
If you are anti-feminist or anti-gay, I would not bother buying them
for your own enjoyment.

Disclaimer: I have read and enjoyed ALL of the Darkover books, but I
have also listened to various members of my household hoot the
"dreck".

liz sommers
everywhere!rutgers!{unirot|soup|mama}!liz
sommers@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 07:21:26 GMT
From: reed!ellen@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

O.K., here's the new improved Darkover list and Marion Zimmer
Bradley bibliography...

Ellen Eades (tektronix!reed!ellen)

In order of publication:          Darkovan chronology:

Planet Savers, 1962             Darkover Landfall
Sword of Aldones, 1962          Stormqueen!
Bloody Sun, 1964                Two to Conquer
Star of Danger, 1966            Hawkmistress!
Winds of Darkover, 1970         Shattered Chain (part 1)
World Wreckers, 1971            Spell Sword
Darkover Landfall, 1972         Forbidden Tower
Spell Sword, 1972               Shattered Chain (part 2)
Heritage of Hastur, 1975        Thendara House
Shattered Chain, 1976           City of Sorcery
Forbidden Tower, 1977           Star of Danger
Stormqueen!, 1978               Winds of Darkover
Bloody Sun (rewrite), 1979      Bloody Sun
Two to Conquer, 1980            Heritage of Hastur
Keeper's Price*, 1980           Planet Savers
Sharra's Exile, 1981            Sharra's Exile/Sword of Aldones%
Sword of Chaos*, 1982           World Wreckers
Hawkmistress!, 1982             Return to Darkover
Thendara House, 1983
City of Sorcery, 1984
Return to Darkover, (scheduled release 1986)

*Keeper's Price & Sword of Chaos are short story anthologies by
Bradley and others, chosen by MZB to be nearest to her personal view
of Darkover & thus "authentic."

%Sharra's Exile is a rewrite of Sword of Aldones and thus occupies
the same chronological niche.

Mini-series or direct sequels to one another:

Spell Sword/Forbidden Tower/Bloody Sun (rewrite)
Shattered Chain/Thendara House/City of Sorcery
Heritage of Hastur/Sharra's Exile/Return to Darkover

Non-Darkover science fiction:           Fantasy:

Seven from the Stars, 1957      Dark Satanic, 1972
The Door Through Space, 1961    In the Steps of the Master, 1973
Falcons of Narabedla, 1964      Drums of Darkness, 1976
The Brass Dragon, 1970          House Between the Worlds, 1980
Colors of Space, 1974           Web of Light, 1982
Endless Voyage, 1975            Web of Darkness, 1983
Endless Universe*, 1979         The Inheritor, 1984
Hunters of the Red Moon, 1975   Night's Daughter, 1985
The Survivors**, 1979           Warrior Woman, 1986
The Ruins of Isis, 1979
Survey Ship, 1980

*Endless Universe same as Endless Voyage plus two more novelettes
about the Explorers

**Survivors is sequel to Hunters of the Red Moon.

Mainstream:

The Catch Trap, 1979
The Mists of Avalon, 1983

Anthologies:

Dark Intruder & Other Stories, 1964
Greyhaven, 1983
Sword & Sorceress, 1984
Sword & Sorceress v. 2, 1985
Sword & Sorceress v. 3, 1986

Gothics:

Castle Terror, 1965
Souvenir of Monique, 1967
Bluebeard's Daughter, 1968
Can Ellen Be Saved?, pub. date unknown

There is also a series of new fan activity centering around the
Darkover universe.  These are the addresses that I have: (PLEASE
ENCLOSE A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE)

For "Relays," a Darkover newsletter:

Paella n'ha Mhari
P.O. box 2048
Sacramento, CA 95810

Free Amazon newsletter:

Tess Kolney
2114 James Avenue
Minneapolis, MN 55411

Council Lists (Darkover fans in your area)

Ambria Ridenow
P.O. Box 915
Felton, CA 95018

Contes de Cottman IV (fiction fanzine)

Lynn Holdom
P.O. Box 5
Pompton Lakes, NJ o7442

Darkovan Dictionary/Language

John Shimwell
407 Clayton St.
San Francisco, CA 94117

There are two annual USA Darkover conventions:
Grand Council Meeting (East Coast)
Fantasy Worlds Festival (West Coast)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 87 07:07:05 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

THe Darkover books are of vastly uneven quality.  Far and away the
best is the _Heritage of Hastur_ - _Sharra's Exile_ pair, which
contain the original Darkover story as revised when MZB had matured
as a writer.  _Forbidden Tower_ and _Stormqueen_ also have some
merit in my mind, as does the title story in _Sword of Chaos_ (a
rare instance of MZB's more literary voice appearing in the Darkover
series, by the way).  Avoid _Sword of Aldones_ at all cost.

Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously.  In
recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how to
run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that she
sponsers such a group back home.  Personally, I prefer some of her
other works; I have always enjoyed the Lythande stories, and I
really like _House Between the Worlds_.  If you have to read the
Darkover stories in some order, read them in *reverse* chronological
order; the books which were conceived first were the ones come
latest in Darkover history, and the ones coming earlier historically
tend to require those written first to be properly understood.

C. WIngate

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 87 21:15:32 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

>I don't have this info handy, but I would suggest *NOT* trying to
>read the books in Darkover order, but rather in the order in which
>they were published.

This is excellent advice, as the rules got changed in midstream.
Try the following order:

The Sword of Aldones
The Planet Savers
(The Door through Space) (marginal)
(Falcons of Narabedla) (marginal)
Star of Danger
The Winds of Darkover
The Bloody Sun (The *old* version)
The World Wreckers
Darkover Landfall

These may be described as the old canon, though Landfall is
transitional.


The Spell Sword
The Forbidden Tower
The Bloody Sun (The new version)
The Heritage of Hastur
Shaara's Exile (Sword of Aldones, revisited)
Stormqueen
Two to Conquer
The Broken Chain
Hawkmistress
Thendara House
City of Sorcery (title?)

The chronological thing to do would be to read Stormqueen after
Darkover Landfall--and you really don't want to do that.  The
earlier books were explicitly written to stand on their own as well
as as members of a series.  In the later books this ideal is
abandoned.  Further, MZB has engaged in fairly extensive *rewriting*
of her earlier Darkovan history.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (edu or bitnet)
(or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 87 10:16:36 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously.  In
>recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how to
>run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that she
>sponsers such a group back home.

I don't think that this is an accurate representation.  In the
prefaces to some of her anthologies she gives the impression that
she is pleased that some people have found some of her ideas worthy
of serious consideration and is interested in attempts to work them
through.

Likewise, she is please that others have used her universe as an
entry to serious writing, but that doesn't keep here from turning a
critical eye on the results and trying to separate the creative from
the imatative.

>Personally, I prefer some of her other works; I have always enjoyed
>the Lythande stories, and I really like _House Between the Worlds_.

Sorry, I think Lythande is an accident, a short story that grew
without enough basis for more.  Sure, nice color and interesting
encounters, but I keep asking WHY?

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 23:54:20 GMT
From: sgreen@hera.cs.ucla.edu (Shoshanna Green)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>>Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously.  In
>>recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how
>>to run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that
>>she sponsers such a group back home.
>
>I don't think that this is an accurate representation.

I agree with the first poster; I think MZB has stopped writing good
Darkover novels and begun writing mildly-interesting to boring
polemics. I was at the last Darkover Grand Council in Wilmington,
where she did indeed run what was billed as a Free Amazon meeting. I
went to it thinking that it was going to be a discussion of the Free
Amazons. Foolish me! It was a meeting of women (closed to men, about
which more in a moment) who sat around and talked about how _this_
world oppresses women, and in particular how it did so when these
women were growing up (average age 35).

Don't get this wrong; I am a feminist too. But the meeting was not
billed as a consciousness-raising group / bitch session, and that's
what it was. Not a word was said about Free Amazons on Darkover. I
felt let down.

A male friend of mine asked MZB in the autograph line earlier that
day if he could come to the meeting. She said no. They discussed it
for a minute. I was standing behind him in line, and can say that
they both were perfectly polite. He asked, she answered, he
questioned, she explained, he said okay. At the Free Amazon meeting,
then she opened it by talking about him. He had been wearing a kilt;
she did a little unwarranted speculation on "this man in a dress who
wanted to come to the women's meeting". I was late, and heard about
this from a friend who was there.

I have met a woman who claimed to be MZB's oath-daughter. This woman
said that she had sworn the original oath (a revised version has
been written for Terran women in this society) and was _very_
serious about it.

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 15:23:51 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

I wrote:
>>Unfortunately MZB has begun to take the series too seriously.  In
>>recent DarkoverCons in Wilmington she has hosted seminars on how
>>to run a free amazon house, and various people have claimed that
>>she sponsers such a group back home.

 And George Robbins replied:
>I don't think that this is an accurate representation.  In the
>prefaces to some of her anthologies she gives the impression that
>she is pleased that some people have found some of her ideas worthy
>of serious consideration and is interested in attempts to work them
>through.

It is, to best of my knowledge, an accurate description of events at
the last two councils.  I cannot testify for certain, since men were
not permitted to attend the session in question; I am willing to
vouch for the testimony of the woman I know who did attend the
session.  MZB also seems to take her position as leader of the
occultish band which forms one of the three core groups of the
convention seriously (to some extent; I don't want to get into a
lengthy religious discussion here, but I don't think she takes it as
seriously as she believes she does).

This is rather disheartening, and I really hope it doesn't go on to
interfere with the good things she does.  The various anthologies
she edits and sponsors provide a lot of fledgling (and more
advanced) writers with a safe opportunity to write in relatively
unexplored areas of the genre.  Her reputation in that areas is
well-deserved.  But her veiled references to people "working through
her ideas" do refer to the attempts to act out parts of darkover
society in real life, unless the information I have is utterly
wrong.

Mr. Robbins is entitled to his opinion on Lythande.  Personally, I
am relieved at the advent of a group of stories which lead nowhere
and form no real connected plot; a set of just good stories
centering around the same character is rare enough these days.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 1987  00:12 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Teckla

   I certainly wouldn't call an assassin immature...nasty, mean, and
vicious, but hardly immature... at least not to his face :)

   Anyway, my main problem with Teckla was that the Empire is not a
human one, and doesn't behave like a human society.  Example, every
house gets a turn at the top.  It just strikes me as a bit odd that
1) the lords would be all that cruel to their Teckla since they know
that the Teckla will spend a period ruling the Empire; 2) that the
Teckla, knowing that they will rule, would risk screwing it up.
Sure, they have a few thousand years to wait, but we're talking
about people that live for thousands of years; 3) doesn't Zerilka
(the Empress) have the power to smash anyone with a link to the Orb?
After all, she controls the source of all Empire sorcery, so it
seems to be that it would be a bit difficult for any revolution to
spring up when any opposing sorcerors can be squashed or at least
cut from their source; 4) where did these conscripted Teckla come
from?  They certainly never showed up in Yendi (or am I just not
remembering correctly?), and there were lots of Phoenix Guards
around then; 5) finally, what good are barricades against a couple
of annoyed wizards?  I wouldn't think that the Guards would fight
through, but would simply blast the things out of the way, and mop
up what's left.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 87 0857-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Ellison & Niven (6 msgs) &
                         Zelazny & Some Reviews

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 18:34:42 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Harlan Ellison (was Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE)

don@clunk.UUCP (Don McKillican) writes:
>(you will also gather I am not a fan of Harlan Ellison :-)).

I've gotta agree with you there, Don.  I find Ellison's fiction drab
and dreary.  I *do* think, however, that he's one of the best
anthologists in the business.  For all his bitching and moaning
during the ``Dangerous Visions'' series, he managed to collect a
fascinating set of memorable stories and I actually enjoyed his many
forwards.  Since that was my first exposure to his work, I thought
I'd try his fiction and that was a major disappointment.  The film
of ``A Boy and his Dog'' was good, too.

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
{whatever}!amdahl!krs

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 86 17:19:33 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes:
>Eric Rickett discusses the use of alphabetic phone codes for
>interstellar communication, and suggests phone numbers such as
>"MikesBarAntares" (I prefer "(Antares)MikesBar", or even
>"Continent1%MikesBar@Antares").  [Actually, given that Antares is a
>red giant, I suspect Mike's is a pretty hot place.]
>
>But given the difficulty of centralising phone codes, I suspect the
>address will be something more like
>
>   Rigel!Procyon!Sirius!Alpha_Centauri_A!Antares!MikesBar

Well, I still side with the other guy: everyone has personal
databases, the teleport company has a phone "book" database.  The
*real* address would probably be represented by a series of base-256
numbers, given our current mode of computer storage (I think we'll
be seing a BIG change in that by the time teleporters become
standard household appliances)--a half-dozen 'characters' ought to
handle it.  A simple "Mike's, on Antares" should reduce the number
of choices.

>That's the reason that I have to dismiss (regretfully) the
>possibility of an interstellar empire of the Trantor variety. It's
>all fine to talk about governing several quadrillion people, but
>the distances (even at FTL speeds) and number of planets would make
>agreeing on anything almost impossible.

I think that all depends on the technology.  At the Roman Era tech
level, an empire of, say, the U.S.'s scope would fall inside of a
month.  A pet theory of mine: An empire will expand (assuming it's
capable of expansion) to a size which one can cross in about a
month.  Any larger, and the communication flow from capital to
border will be too slow to react to outside forces.  Just a theory.

Also, I think that an average planet will tend to have a single
political opinion if they have the technology.  High levels of
technology in the areas of communication and travel tend to do that.
Look what's happened to the U.S. since the invention of radio and
T.V., not to mention airplanes.

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 86 21:58:42 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:

>>That's the reason that I have to dismiss (regretfully) the
>>possibility of an interstellar empire of the Trantor variety. It's
>>all fine to talk about governing several quadrillion people, but
>>the distances (even at FTL speeds) and number of planets would
>>make agreeing on anything almost impossible.
>
>I think that all depends on the technology.  At the Roman Era tech
>level, an empire of, say, the U.S.'s scope would fall inside of a
>month.  A pet theory of mine: An empire will expand (assuming it's
>capable of expansion) to a size which one can cross in about a
>month.  Any larger, and the com- munication flow from capital to
>border will be too slow to react to outside forces.  Just a theory.

Well, the Roman empire was larger than the US, and took rather
longer than a month to collapse.  The time taken to get from Rome to
some of the outlying provinces was very short for a fast courier,
using the Roman roads and the staging posts, but it could take a
year or more for a real army to get that far.

The Mongol empire was even larger, and didn't collapse for lack of
communication.

And, to take an example from more recent history, the round-trip
communication time between Britain and much of the Empire (eg
Bombay, Cape Town, Sydney, Vancouver) in the early 19th century was
between six months and eighteen months.

And, to take an example from your own history, the travel time
between Washington and California in the 1860's was several months.
In the 1770's it could take three months just to get from the other
side of the Appalachian range, which is why the procedures for
electing the president have long delays built into them.

There are many ways to build an empire that doesn't collapse due to
lack of communications.  The Romans faced this problem in the late
republic and early empire, and their solutions are still worth
studying.  See, for example, the first book of Gibbon's Decline and
Fall.  Read also the events leading up to the Battle of Actium, for
an account of perhaps the most serious threat arising form slow
communications, an aggressive enemy, and not a little treason by the
local high command.

The topic of the "natural" evolution of empires is treated
exhaustively (and exhaustingly) by Hegel, Toynbee, and Spengler.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 17:37:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Known Space bibliography

From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
> With all this talk about Niven's "Known Space" stories, I'd like
> to go back and read the books and stories.  Can someone list all
> the books and stories he's written about it (or tell me if such a
> list already exists somewhere)?  Thanks.

In chronological order:
[Note: The stories in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE span the entire known
Known Space history (ie, "The Coldest Place" is the chronologically
earliest story and "Safe at *Any* Speed" is the chronologically
latest).]

TALES OF KNOWN SPACE  (1975)
   "The Coldest Place"
   "Becalmed in Hell"
   "Wait It Out"
   "Eye of an Octopus"
   "How the Heroes Die"
   "The Jigsaw Man"
   "At the Bottom of a Hole"
   "Intent to Deceive"
   "Cloak of Anarchy"
   "The Warriors"
   "The Borderland of Sol"
   "There is a Tide"
   "Safe at *Any* Speed"
WORLD OF PTAAVS  (1966)
THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON  (1976)
   "Death by Ecstasy"
   "The Defenseless Dead"
   "ARM"
THE PATCHWORK GIRL  (1980)
PROTECTOR  (1973)
A GIFT FROM EARTH  (1968)
NEUTRON STAR  (1968)
   "Neutron Star"
   "A Relic of Empire"
   "At the Core"
   "The Soft Weapon"
   "Flatlander"
   "The Ethics of Madness"
   "The Handicapped"
   "Grendel"
RINGWORLD  (1970)
RINGWORLD ENGINEERS  (1980)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 23:26:22 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and mathematics and Arthur C. Clarke

>> [Niven] said, "do you know why there will never be a galactic
>> empire? ... Because the phone numbers in the transporter booths
>> would have to be so long, that nobody could ever dial them."  He
>> said this in all seriousness.  The audience member said, "but you
>> could address every square meter of every planet surface in the
>> galaxy with just a few dozen digits."  Niven looked at Jerry
>> Pournelle ... and asked, "is that true?"  Dr. Pournelle looked
>> pretty embarrassed ... as he said "yes."  "Oh," said Niven.
>
> I think you're being a bit hard on Niven here. I would think he
> meant it in a light hearted way, and just hadn't thought it
> through. ... "A few dozen digits" is definitely too much for me.
> What would such a galactic phone book weigh anyway?

Let me clarify.  It has been over 10 years, so I don't remember the
exact words, but it was clear that Niven did not mean that you
couldn't "dial" the transporter booth numbers because they were too
long to remember.  He meant that you couldn't "dial" them because
you would not live long enough.  He obviously thought that log base
10 (number of transporter booths in a galactic empire) was in the
millions, when actually it wouldn't be more than about 24.  The
point was that Niven doesn't understand big numbers.

I agree with various posters that user interfaces will get much
better.  I do not fault Niven for not thinking about this on the
fly.  I do fault him for not knowing the difference between 24 and a
million.

John Oswalt
..!amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 86 04:13:56 GMT
From: cerebus!ronc@rutgers.rutgers.edu (sysadm)
Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics

peno@enea.UUCP (Pekka Nousiainen) writes:
>>>Who would "dial" a phone in the future?
>
>>I was disturbed by this at first, because he was obviously
>>referring to the punching of numbers into a keypad.
>Why dial a *number* at all?  When I want to access a file on this
>machine do I type in a string of device and inode numbers?  The
>only reason we still use telephone numbers is that our computers
>are too slow.

Not the only reason.  Why force a person to use a full keyboard when
a keypad would do?  Which is less expensive to mass produce?  Which
is easier to punch in, 8374928873, or Georgina Alvinof Rapnowski?

>On a related note (this is too silly, my memory must be failing) I
>seem to recall that if you dialed a non-existent number in a
>transfer booth you would simply vanish.  Such a system without even
>elementary precautions would solve the population problem in no
>time.

I think your memory is failing.  I can't prove I've read all the
stories that include transfer booths, but I don't remember that.  In
fact, one of the stories (_Flash_Crowd_, I think) implies that the
transmitting booth needs to make contact with the receiving booth.
Mass (air, mostly) in the receiving booth gets transmitted back to
the transmitting booth at the same time as the person arrives in the
receiving booth.

The same story makes a big deal about the safety of transfer booths.
If the receiving booth can't receive for some reason, the person
gets reflected back to the transmitting booth.  The only real danger
was if power failed at the exact moment of transfer.

As someone else said, Niven has made blunders, but this isn't one of
them.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
seismo!amdahl!fai!cerebus!ronc
ihnp4!pesnta!fai!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 86 19:33:35 GMT
From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: What Larry Niven doesn't know about mathematics

ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes:
>peno@enea.UUCP (Pekka Nousiainen) writes:
>>On a related note (this is too silly, my memory must be failing) I
>>seem to recall that if you dialed a non-existent number in a
>>transfer booth you would simply vanish.  Such a system without
>>even elementary precautions would solve the population problem in
>>no time.
>
>I think your memory is failing.  I can't prove I've read all the
>stories that include transfer booths, but I don't remember that.
>In fact, one of the stories (_Flash_Crowd_, I think) implies that
>the transmitting booth needs to make contact with the receiving
>booth.  Mass (air, mostly) in the receiving booth gets transmitted
>back to the transmitting booth at the same time as the person
>arrives in the receiving booth.

I think Pekka Nousiainen is referring to _A World Out of Time_.
Jaybee Corbell takes a Bussard ramjet trip to the Galactic core and
back, and returns 3 million years later (Earth time). He's not real
sure what a transfer booth does and how it works, so he worries that
it might make him vanish if he punches in a non-existent number.  It
is pointed out that this would be poor design, and it appears that
it was not designed that way. But he wasn't sure, and didn't want to
disappear...

Bob Myers
myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 22:10:53 GMT
From: ihlpa!fish@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bob Fishell)
Subject: Re: Amber

> I didn't know about the second series.  Can someone post info in
> it?

Sure.  Zelazny began a second Amber series featuring Corwin's son --
I've forgotten his name momentarily -- whom we meet in _The Courts
of Chaos_.  The opener was _Trumps of Doom_.  Now, What's this about
a second book in Amber 2?  I haven't been paying much attention to
the bookstores lately, and I'd like to get book 2, if it has indeed
been published.

And while we're on the subject, the second novel featuring Pol
Detson (_Madwand_) left me with a distinct impression that Zelazny
wasn't finished with this character.  Is there another book
published (or planned?).

Bob Fishell
ihnp4!ihlpa!fish

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 87 9:25:20 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Varley and Pohl (et al)

Checked a big batch of SF out of the library for Xmas vacation
reading, and thought I'd mention a couple books that stood out and
can be recommended:

John Varley, BLUE CHAMPAGNE (Dark Harvest, Niles, IL, 1986, 400 pp.,
ill.  by Todd Hamilton, trade edition)

This is a collection of Varley short stories and novellae put out by
a small press. It includes such classic stories as "Press Enter []",
and I recommend as delightful amusements two shorts: "The Manhattan
Phone Book (Abridged)" and " The Unprocessed Word". The latter
especially for all us computer types.

Frederick Pohl & Elizabeth Anne Hull [Mrs. Pohl], TALES FROM THE
PLANET EARTH (St. Martin's Press, New York, 1986, 268 pp.)

This is billed as "a novel with nineteen authors"; what it really is
is a collection of short stories on the common theme of mental
possesion of human bodies by disembodied alien intelligences, based
loosely on the same premise and situation, as provided by Pohl in
his story, "Sitting Around the Pool, Soaking Up the Rays." The one I
liked best was Somtow Sucharitkul's "Fiddling for Water Buffaloes"
-- hilarious and a great view of Western culture from outside, plus
it gives some insights into Thai attitudes and lifestyles that make
it must reading for anyone who ever took an anthropology course. I
really did not expect this book to be as good as it is; common-theme
anthologies are hard to do well.

As an aside, I've just started Silverberg's STAR OF GYPSIES, and so
far it has had some novel concepts and unusual settings and has
captured my interest. It has a bit of the flavor of too much
research, though -- it begins to read like it was written with a
stack of books about gypsies and the Romany language at the side of
the writer. This isn't necessarily bad, if it painlessly teaches the
reader a lot of information about something he/she didn't know, but
it can be excessive. Anyone wish to post some comments on this?

Regards,
Will

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 87 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Jan 1987       Volume 12 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:

             Miscellaneous - Alderson Drive (2 msgs) &
                     Man and Machines (2 msgs) & BBS Wanted &
                     Esotericon & SFL T-Shirts & 
                     Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 02:22:46 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Alderson Drive

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>the stuff in Analog, as far as I can see.  And Pournelle has
>unexplained bolonium and unobtanium, just like Niven does.  For
>example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith and its
>implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out; some of
>the points about the

I hate to tell you, but the Alderson Drive isn't Pournelle's fault.
It was invented by Dan Alderson, then a student at CalTech, now of
JPL.

Brandon S. Allbery
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 02:58:39 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Alderson Drive... again

desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) writes:
>throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>>For example, the "Alderson Drive" must simply be taken on faith
>>and its implications for relativity seem rather poorly worked out;
>Yes indeed.  On page 424 of my Pocket paperback (of TMiGE) Renner
>(by far the most intelligent character in the book; i.e. moderately
>intelligent) says to find the Alderson point by "project[ing] the
>path of the Motie ship until it intersects the direct line between
>the Mote and Murcheson's Eye."
>   There are two ludicrous errors here.  First, it appears that
>Niven and Pournelle think that these Alderson points lie on "direct
>lines" between stars.  Too bad that there is no such thing.
>Second, they

Niven may think so.  Pournelle makes it clear that the lines are NOT
"direct lines" in his own stories.  (I can't find a reference at
present, but it is definitely mentioned in a short story of his
where a CD Senator is trapped near a black hole.)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 86 18:16:33 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Increased Intelligence

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
> twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
>>> Human intelligence will double in the next hundred years.
>>> Neurointerfacing is not more than thirty years away.
>
>>But is that an increase in intelligence?  Nope.
>
> (a) Nanotechnology...
>
> (b) Neural network theory...
>
> (c) ...repairing CNS damage...
>
> (d) ...close CNS monitoring...

Great stuff!  This brought to mind a list of "speculative fiction"
books and series to be reread with these ideas at hand.  Query: at
what point do we cease being human and become either Cyborgs or some
other bio- engineered species?  Is it beneficial?

"Time Enough for Love", Heinlein
   (After engineering a person, load in memories of a computer.)
   (A whole bunch of RAH's stories deal with cyborgs and aware
    computers.)
Dream Dancer series, Janet Morris
   (Full interface with computers and spaceships. I want *this* one,
   now!)
"I, Robot", Asimov
   (Are robots alive?  What's that mean about enhanced humans?)
   (Should humans be subject to the First Law, as well??)
"Dune", Herbert
   (Outlaw thinking machines!)
"Terminal Man", Crichton
   (What if it goes haywire?  Have we done more harm than good?)

Now that these enhancements of the human animal are seen as
feasible, desirable in some circles, we need the input of the SF
writers to make sure we don't blindly accept (or reject) the work of
the technologists and scientists.  The decisions we face in the
coming decades have major implications for the future of the human
race, life on Earth, and everything (42).  These decisions are not
simple and there will be no pat answers, but I applaud the net for
discussing it!

Thanks for stimulating the brain (and heart),

Kris Stephens
(408-746-6047)
{whatever}!amdahl!krs

------------------------------

Date: Wed 31 Dec 86 02:48:56-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Man-Machine Interfaces.

                   The Future of the Human Mind.

     There has been a good deal of discussion recently about the
(not so distant?) arrival of 'neuro-electric interfaces' and such
like, which promise much more direct contact between humans and
computers.  This is a favorite topic of mine. I would like to
present my thoughts on the matter, and ask what other netlanders
think.

     We human beings interface with the world using our many senses
for input, and for output we rely almost solely on our muscles (this
includes speech) plus a few minor other outputs, such as pheromones.
This collection of IO channels (you could say it is our Basic IO
System, or BIOS), is optimized as far as is biologically possible
for the situation we evolved in; using simple tools, and living in
small communities. It provides accurate and precise control over
ones own body, and a means of communication with other people
through both verbal and non-verbal channels.
     Our current BIOS is fine when we are in direct contact with the
environment and other people. However, when we deal with 'abstract
knowledge' the 'baud rate' falls precipitously. Few people can read
above 1200 baud, and typing is an order of magnitude below that.
Graphs, pictures, etc. can communicate faster, but are only useful
for limited types of data and slow to prepare. Controlling machinery
is just as bad: we have to interpret data, abstract what it _means_,
and then produce outputs which are as far removed from the desired
result as the data we had to interpret.
     This communications bottleneck has been explored in SF as in no
other field. We have long read of cyborgs, who are plumbed in with
machines to the extent that they ARE the machine, for example in
_The_Ship_that_Sang_ (McCaffrey(?)), and _Becalmed_in_Hell_ (Niven)
where people ARE spaceships, the motors their legs, radar their
eyes, etc. In Delaney's _Nova_, people are equipped with 'sockets'
allowing them to control equipment as easily as they control their
hands.
     In more recent work, writers have started to explore a more
intimate form of man/machine symbiosis. While the earlier works
treated machines as direct replacements of the human body, we now
see the computer treated as an extension of the human mind. The
earliest example I can think of is _Man-Plus_ (Sturgeon ?), but this
sub-genre has flourished in the last five years, starting with
_True_Names_ (Vinge).
     It is the possibilities of making computers an adjunct of the
brain that I am trying to get at. I see several uses to which we
might put such an interface. These include:

 1. Information retrieval.
 2. Information storage.
 3. Machine control.
 4. Auxiliary processing.

 1. Information retrieval.
     How useful this is depends on at what level the interface with
the mind operates. Suppose it is a 'voice in your ear' thing: You
might consciously think "Computer: What is the state capital of
Moldavia?", and then hear a phantom voice say "Kishinev". This is
pretty neat, but it is not what I hope for. I want the notion of
_Moldavia_ to cross my mind, and for me instantly to _know_ the full
history of that nation, as well as a university professor of the
topic.
     You see what I am getting at. On any subject on which knowledge
exists, I want to be limited not by what is stored in my skull, but
by the knowledge of all people on the net.
     If many people could share memories and knowledge in this way,
to what extent would an 'I' in the sense of 'Peter Trei, separate
from all other persons' exist? I don't know. The temptation of such
instant, total knowledge would be enormous, but the lack of privacy
and individuality would be very off-putting.

 2. Information Storage.
     I forget names, or I often fail to associate them with faces.
Ditto for phone numbers and addresses. Computer assist could give me
instant recall of such things.

 3. Machine control.
     I would like to have machines obey my will, and for me simply
to _know_ how they are responding.

 4. Auxiliary processing.
     This is an interesting possibility. There are several levels at
which it might operate. At the low end, I could ask 'What player
stole the most bases during the 1986 World Series', and have the
answer apparently whispered in my ear, after a machine based expert
system derived the answer. At the top level, part of 'my own mind'
would operate within the machine realm, and at least some of my
thinking could proceed at machine speeds.
     In this we create an effective 'brain amplifier'.  Raw facts
are instantly available, and you could for example mentally
integrate equations via MACSYMA. Any complex task for which data
processing is currently an essential assist (example: running a
Shuttle mission), could become subjectively as easy to handle as
balancing a checkbook.
     Once we can achieve even a modest scale of intelligence
amplification, we start off on an exponential rise in our
capabilities.  For as we become more intelligent, we can see more
ways to increase our intelligence. I cannot conceive of where this
would lead us, but it could be VERY interesting.
     So, what do you think?

Peter Trei
oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

PS: I must mention _Marooned_in_Realtime_ the sequel to
_The_Peace_War_ by Vernor Vinge, which inspired me to enter this
submission.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 86 10:43 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: BBS wanted

I'd appreciate any information you people could give me on SF
computer bulletin boards.  I'm especially interested in finding out
about any Star Trek BBs.

Thanks in advance.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 87 02:33:26 GMT
From: ulowell!mod-psi@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: EsoteriCon

  Just wanted to see who out there is going to EsoteriCon '87. It's
nice to know who (if anyone) out ther shars my interests.

  For those who don't know:

  WHAT: EsoteriCon: A convention of, by, and for people of esoteric
    tastes and pastimes. Will include programs on the tarot, psychic
    healing, psionics in general, as well as generic SF/Fantasy
    fandom and gaming.  Special GOH Katherine Kurtz.

  WHEN:  January 16,17,18, 1987

  WHERE: The Hyatt Regency in New Brunswick, NJ.
             2 Albany St.
             New Brunswick, NJ 08901
             (201) 873-1234
             Telex: 833092

  INFO:  EsoteriCon '87
         PO Box 22775
         Newark, NJ 07101

   I'll be there, under, behind, or thru a ConUndrum button. Hope to
see you!

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
UUCP: ...!wanginst!ulowell!rickheit

------------------------------

From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Date: Sunday,  4 Jan 1987 17:00-EST
Subject: T-shirt closeout

All must go, enourmous inventory clearance!

Or, to put it more clearly:

I've got a fair number of SF-Lovers T-shirts left, mainly in XL, M,
and S.  I'd like to get rid of them. Presumably, some of you would
like to have them. So, here's what you do.

Send me money (a check for $6.50 for each shirt), and a shipping
address to:

Pipe Dream Associates
329 Ward Street
Newton, MA 02159

Be sure to send seperate checks for each shirt, if I am out of that
size (or run out halfway through your order), I will return the
unused checks to you with your shirts (or alone if I can't fill it
at all).

For example, if you want 2 small and an XL, you should send me 3
checks for $6.50. The reason I'm doing it this way is two-fold.
First, if I had to deposit all the checks and issue refund checks
for partial amounts, I'd get stuck with extra deposit fees.
Secondly, if I write checks for refund amounts, I get stuck with a
check-writing fee.

It is my sincere belief that I have sent everyone who ordered a
T-shirt their shirt. If you have not received your shirt(s), PLEASE
CONTACT ME IMMEDIATELY.  I will hold off on processing/mailing
shirts until February 1st to make sure that I have filled all
outstanding orders.

Remember, this will be first come, first served, so get your order
in fast.

James
UUCP: {linus, ima, decvax}!cca!ringwld!jmturn
ARPA: ringwld!jmturn@CCA.CCA.COM

P.S. Does anyone know why Mike Parker; 3460 Ste-Famille; Montreal,
Quebec was unable to be mailed his shirts? I included proper postage
and duty, but they bounced with an undecypherable scrawl written on
them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 86 09:04:51 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: Time Travel/conservation of energy

There was one story that brought this problem up...it might have
been Glory Road, by Heinlein. The problem was when Star, Oscar, and
Rufo popping in and out of the universes. Oscar complained that this
violated the conservation of energy, but Star explained that it
didn't, looking at the multiverse (not Heinlein's phrase) as a
whole. Seems to me that the same thing holds when you look at time
as a whole.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 86 12:49 EST
From: JimC@a
Subject: time travel

With the new Star Trek movie out, thoughts of time travel are back
on the net--with the usual preposterous assertions and claims.  To
get around the problem of causality, Keith F. Lynch advances "two
main consistent ways" to allow time travel--branching universes and
a "stack-type" system, in which a jump back in time "causes the
previous future of that time to be wiped out and start over."

Really now.  Once again we have people confusing man's selfmade
abstraction, "time," with the vast probabilistic matrix of subatomic
changes that gives reality its seemingly "forward" temporal
movement.  Time has nothing to do with numbers on a clock face; it's
the generalization of the changes all the minutest bits of matter
undergo as they interact with each other.  There are no clocks in
nature--just local cyclical processes that man has used to measure
duration.  Whether the universe itself is cyclic no one, of course,
knows.

Time travel, no matter the model, is akin to religion: it's possible
if you believe in a God who can do anything.  Two of the corollaries
of this belief:

1.  All events, past, present and future, are fixed and determined.
This conflicts with what we know of probability, causality, and
evolution.  Somehow everything that has ever happened must be
recorded so that the past will still exist for someone to visit.
The same is true for the future: it has to already exist, a kind of
past not yet arrived at.

2.  In jumping from one time to the other, the time traveler must
totally leave reality and then reenter it.  This is essentially a
belief in the "supernatural"--a giant leap back to Medievalism, in
which earthly reality was seen as a subset of divine reality.  In
the scientific view, the universe is truly "uni"; it's all that
there is and there's no going outside it because there is no
outside.

There are many more.  The point is that like all fairytale notions,
time travel breaks down into a series of absurdities when you look
at it closely enough.  Thus it's valid to propose a third
"explanation" for time travel in addition to the parallel universe
and stack-type models: one can easily imagine a being, called, let's
say, Chronos, whose job in the cosmos is managing time.  Like a
locomotive engineer, he makes the whole damn thing go.  Say the
right thing to him (there's the trick, not to mention figuring out
how), and he will transport you anywhere in time, taking care to tie
up all the loose paradoxes.  Parallel universes or Chronos: prove to
me which one is false.

Jim Cortese

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 87 0807-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:

                Books - Adams & Anderson & Bradley &
                        Brust & Ellison & Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                        Some Recommendations & Spoiled Books &
                        A Story Request Answered

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 09:27 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: New book by Douglas Adams

According to the latest issue of Publishers Weekly, Simon & Schuster
will publish a new Douglas Adams book, _Dirk Gently's Holistic
Detective Agency_, in May, with a 100,000 copy first printing.
(With a first printing that large, S&S clearly sees this as a
blockbuster.)

More details if and when they appear in the magazine.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 18:01:43 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Anderson's "Sam Hall"

   Doesn't really qualify as a hacker/penetration story, since Hall
is a personality faked up by a central records worker who has
legitimate access to the central computer; he mucks around with
assorted records (e.g., inserting the code for the thumbprint
synthesized for Hall's record in place of the code reported by the
investigator of a possibly-political robbery) but does (as I recall)
all of this manually (e.g., no virus or cookie-monster programs, not
even something to warn him if he's being electronically watched
while he's at work).

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 05:30:48 GMT
From: osu-eddie!jac@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes:
>O.K., here's the new improved Darkover list and Marion
>Zimmer Bradley bibliography...
>Sharra's Exile, 1981           Sharra's Exile/Sword of Aldones%
>Sword of Chaos*, 1982          World Wreckers
>Hawkmistress!, 1982            Return to Darkover
>Thendara House, 1983
>City of Sorcery, 1984
>Return to Darkover, (scheduled release 1986)

I hadn't heard about one titled Return to Darkover and I am pretty
sure it didn't make it out in 1986.  You did, however, leave out two
more anthologies with the Friends of Darkover.

Free Amazons of Darkover, 1985
The Other Side of the Mirror, due out in Feb. 1987

The blurb for The Other Side of the Mirror (in B. Dalton's Jan.-Feb.
ENVOS) it "includes a new timeline and chronology created by Marion
Zimmer Bradley, as well as a brief history of the Ages of Darkover,
which will place and succeeding volumes at their proper point in
time."

My personal favorites are Heritage of Hastur, Sharra's Exile, Spell
Sword, and Forbidden Tower (not necessarily in that order).

Jim Clausing
CIS Department
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@ohio-state.CSNET
jac@ohio-state.ARPA
jac@osu-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 09:06:38 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Teckla
Cc: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu

>    The book was something of a disappointment.  It reads a lot
> more like "Brokedown Castle", than it does like "Jhereg".  I get
> the feeling that the former is what Brust wants to be writing,
> while the latter is what he excells at, which must be rough.

I normally don't kibitz other people's reviews, but I think Dani
missed it slightly on Teckla.  I finished it the other day, and I
believe it is the best work that Steve has done to date -- although
Brokedown Palace comes close.

Be aware that this book has a significantly different tone than
previous Brust books.  It is rather somber and serious, and
everything is painted with gray washes instead of the black's and
white's of previous novels.  Nothing is as clear as it used to be.
Teckla is a very moving and an intensely personal book -- earlier
books tended to be more entertainment works.  The characters are
VERY real and go through very realistic pains and changes, unlike
the first two books where Vlad basically skated through life without
it really affecting him much.

As I've already written in the next OtherRealms, I consider Teckla a
major book for Brust.  It is going to disappoint many people, for
the same reason that Woody Allen disappointed many fans who only
like the "early, funny" movies (to paraphrase Stardust Memories).
This book is the book that proves the promise and shows Brust to be
a major writer in Fantasy.  Teckla is not Steve Brust writing the
same old thing, Teckla is Steve Brust writing the new, improved
Brust, stretching his wings and showing that he's as good as (or
better than) anyone in the industry.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 02:13:36 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison (was Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE)

krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes:
> I've gotta agree with you there, Don.  I find Ellison's fiction
> drab and dreary.  I *do* think, however, that he's one of the best
> anthologists in the business.  For all his bitching and moaning
> during the ``Dangerous Visions'' series, he managed to collect a
> fascinating set of memorable stories and I actually enjoyed his
> many forwards.  Since that was my first exposure to his work, I
> thought I'd try his fiction and that was a major disappointment.
> The film of ``A Boy and his Dog'' was good, too.

Even though Harlan doesn't need any defense, and you are entitled to
an (informed) opinion, I just thought I'd point out Harlan's umpteen
Hugos and Nebulas (he's either won more Hugos than anybody else, or
is tied with Sturgeon), his Edgar, his awards for television
scripts, and the recent award for his column "An Edge in My Voice."
Of course, this doesn't mean some people might find his fiction not
to their liking, and even dreary, since he doesn't write cute bunny
rabbit stories. I just thought I'd point out his awards.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 11:09:58 EST
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Female Authors and Star Trek

I received this in response to the NY Times article on ST fanzines:

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@ai.ai.mit.edu>

  Have you read any of Ayn Rand's books?  She explores the
relationships between individuals very closely.  She wrote:

_We The Living_ in 1936.  A woman in the Soviet Union has a love
affair with a commissar in an attempt to gain medical care for he
true love.

_Anthem_ in 1937.  A man in a collectivised future society seeks his
own identity.  He is hampered by the lack of all personal pronouns.

_The Fountainhead_ in 1943.  A young architect in the 1920s and
1930s struggles for the integrity of his work against every form of
social oppression.

_Atlas Shrugged_ in 1957.  This story follows the lives of several
men and women as they gradually realize why everything is going to
pieces, and what they can do to stop it.  It is set in the "present"
though it often feels more like the 1930s than the 1950s.

  She did not regard herself as a science fiction writer, though
some science fictional elements do appear in most of her stories.
She considered herself a romantic writer, not in the sense of the
mass produced romances one finds in the supermarket, but in the
nineteenth century sense of the word.  She explains this at great
length in her nonfiction book _The Romantic Manifesto_.
  A major philosophical/political movement was founded, based on
_Atlas Shrugged_.  In support of this movement, called Objectivism,
she wrote several nonfiction books including _For the New
Intellectual_, _Philosophy: Who Need It_, _Capitalism: The Unknown
Ideal_, and _The Virtue of Selfishness_.  There is also a videotape
lecture series on Objectivism taped shortly before her death in
1982.

  With regard to Star Trek, I have never understood what anyone sees
in it.  There are so many much more believable and consistent
series, such as Heinlein's future history, Asimov's recently
combined Robot series and Empire/Foundation series, Niven's known
space, Pournelle's CoDominium, L. Neil Smith's _Probability Broach_
series, Varley's series in which Earth was long since taken over by
extraterrestrial whales or whale sympathizers (which is probably
where ST IV stole its ideas), and Vernor Vinge's bobble books.  Not
to mention the far greater number of excellent stories which are NOT
part of a series.
  The only thing different about Star Trek (other than it being
blatantly inconsistent, redundant, unscientific, and childish) is
that it is on TV.  I don't see what is so great about that.  And if
that is the standard of value, why no similar hullabaloo over Lost
in Space?
  How can I get anything but comic relief from a series in which
humans can interbreed with aliens (which is about a trillion times
less likely than humans interbreeding with oak trees, which are
related to us after all) or in which almost all aliens look like
white Americans and speak perfect English with a California accent
(except for the aliens which consist of "pure energy" (as if matter
were something else) and look like glittering sparks, and which
every time they see one of these commonplace critters they
profoundly proclaim they have "never seen anything like it before"),
or in which several earthlike planets are so earthlike that they
share Earth's continents and even most of Earth's history, or in
which there is a wall at the edge of the galaxy which causes psychic
powers, or in which Vulcan has seven moons in one episode and none
in another, or in which Spock proclaims excitedly that they are
"caught in a space-time continuum" as if they were ever anywhere
else, or in which mankind has faster-than-light travel for decades
before realizing that this allows time travel - something that
educated people have known since Einstein proved it in 1905, or in
which Earth, Vulcan, Romulus, and the Klingons are all nearly evenly
matched, despite all having had completely independent multi-million
year histories, or in which the destruction of a few fragile tiny
crystals can cripple the starship, but they never bother to carry
spares, or in which (we are lead to believe) Truth, Justice, and the
American way have long since prevailed, but the only examples of
private enterprise we get to see are the notorious Harry Mudd, and
various traders on primitive planets.
  The silliest part of the whole charade was Spock.  We are told
that he is totally logical and has no emotions.  To begin with, that
doesn't make any sense.  Emotions ARE logical.  And if he had no
emotions he wouldn't bother to get out of the bed in the morning,
much less work so hard to save the Enterprise, showing considerable
loyalty to Kirk.  And in any case, he is shown in nearly every
episode to be the most emotional individual on the ship.  Perhaps it
would have been reasonable had they done it once, but they showed
him "crack" in episode after episode, until he was an object more of
pity than anything else.  And in one episode Kirk warned that he
gets very upset (!) and depressed (!)  when he gets emotions.  Sound
to me like he needs a shrink.  Star Trek has done more to make logic
look ridiculous since Kant.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 08:29 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Spock Among the Women

Thanks for typing all that in, Kathy!  I thought it was a
fascinating article, and wanted to share it with SFLovers, but I
wasn't about to do all that typing.

I think Bacon-Smith got her figures through Judy Segal.  I know they
sound right to me, depending on how you count them.  Look at the
Star Trek Welcommittee's Directory or publications listing media
fanzines, such as Datazine or Universal Translator.  Awful LOT of
stuff, and that doesn't include all of the OOP stuff.  I mean, we're
talking 20 YEARS of fanzines!  If anything, I think her figures were
conservative.

I do see Ms. Bacon-Smith's point about women expecting less reward
for their work being an influence, although I don't think it's a
main point of the gender differences in the fandoms.  SF fanzines
are of a completely different kind than ST fanzines.  Men typically
write a few page articles or LoCs for SF fanzines.  Women typically
write hundreds of pages of stories for ST fanzines.  How many men do
you know who would write a novel, expecting to be "paid" only a few
contributor's copy?  But female ST fans do it all the time.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 06 January 87 13:03 EST
From: O9YJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: books

I just thought I'd throw in some suggestions for the possible SF
discussion.  I just finished reading James P. Hogan's trilogy :
Inherit the Stars, The Gentle Giants of Ganymede, and The Giants'
Star. These books are the most scientifically accurate SF I've ever
read. Hogan's range of knowledge is impressive, and his stories are
pure extrapolation upon scientific fact. I can only assume his
biological theories are as well-researched as his other science,for
I'm not a biology expert, but on the whole his books are
refreshingly scientific.
  Two other recommendations: Silverberg's Tom O'Bedlam is a very
moving story, with beautifully crafted characters and fine social
insight. I especially enjoyed the detailed growth of not one, but
several characters, whose closeness to Tom spurred their emergence
from a stagnant existence in a culture not too far removed from our
own. A very good story.
  The other: Footfall, by Niven and Pournelle, represents another
successful collaboration by the two writers. The characters are very
intricately detailed, as is the plot, and the aliens are wonderfully
complex. I really enjoyed this book.
  So much for my two cents. Any have suggestions in return?

------------------------------

Date: Sun 4 Jan 87 21:16:02-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: spoiled books

>>I seem to recall a gaff of similar magnitude in The Integral
>>Trees.
> When people leave the tree, they soon run into a different bunch
> of people. ....  Either way it's absurd, and it spoiled the book
> for me.

Um. Spelling it "gaff" is a gaffe, surely.

As for author's gaffes ... gee, guys, I think you're complaining
about something called "plot". That's a technical, literary device.
It is often connected to somewhat low-probablility fictional events,
like, the hero existing at all, for instance. Having the hero meet
other people is also one of the alternatives to writing a very
boring book.

Of course, fiction is in the business of suspending disbelief, so I
suppose it's bad when books spoil before your very nose. But hey,
what about all those old books ? Stuff that predicted WW3 in, say,
1970 ? Do we junk them all ?

Personally, I find that old SF is a treasure, and I try to enjoy the
mis-predictions. (Spaceship navigators with slide rules or
decimal-to-binary conversion tables ! ) Of course, flat-out mistakes
were common - more so then than now. But I can still enjoy classic
A.E. Van Vogt, for all that Damon Knight correctly labelled him a
"pygmy", more than three decades ago.

Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 87 13:33:11 -0500
From: hmiller@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Story Request

Kris Stephens (krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu) writes:
>While not strictly a sentient computer story (but while we're on
>the subject of asking 'em questions), there was a story about a the
>first super computer where someone asks "What's the source of
>humor?" and the answer was "Extra- Terrestrial."  I won't describe
>the final results of this Q'n'A, but if someone could post the
>author and title from this very basic outline, I *do* recommend the
>story. Might have been William Tenn ('twas weird enough).

I believe the story you are referring to is "Jokester" and it's by
Asimov.  I forget the collection it's in, but I definitely remember
that the computer in question was Multivac.

Herb Miller
ARPA: hmiller@athena.mit.edu
UUCP: seismo!hmiller@athena.mit.edu
BIT: 208543614@VUVAXCOM.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 87 0826-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:

                          Books - Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 87 06:31:25 GMT
From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: Amber chronology

Well, folks, here is a new chronology for Zelazny's Amber books.  I
posted a shorter version of this last year.  The new one includes
TOD and BOA, and it also includes a timeline.  All dates are "Amber
time", not "Corwin time"; I adjusted for time differentials wherever
possible.  Time zero is Corwin's "accident" (sentimental reasons).

Many of the dates come by way of inference and calculation, and many
(e.g. 3000y) are approximate.  If you think I missed something, or
got some dates really wrong, I'd like to hear from you.

THE BEGINNING

        Oberon is born
        Dworkin flees from Chaos to a small sudden island
        Dworkin meditates upon the abyss
        The Jewel is revealed to Dworkin by the Unicorn
        Dworkin creates Amber out of Chaos
        Oberon marries Cymnea
-3000y  Benedict, Osric, Finndo, born to Cymnea
        Eric born to Faiella
        Oberon dissolves marriage to Cymnea
        Oberon marries Faiella
        Osric and Finndo die, purportedly in the service of Amber
        Corwin, Caine born to Faiella
        Faiella dies giving birth to Deirdre
        Sand, Delwin born to Rilga
        Oberon marries Clarissa
        Fiona, Bleys born to Clarissa
        Llewella born to ?
        Oberon divorces Clarissa
        Oberon recognizes Llewella as legitimate
        Brand born to Clarissa
        Flora born to ?
        Julian, Gerard born to Rilga
        Random born to ?
-187y   Sand and Delwin depart from Amber
        Dworkin fashions the family Trumps

THE OLD DAYS

        Deela the Desacratrix burns unicorn shrines at Begma
        Oberon defeats Deela, takes her prisoner, rapes her
        Deela escapes
        Dalt born to Deela
        Deela begins to raid once more around Begma
        Oberon sends Bleys to defeat and kill Deela
        Corwin and Bleys strand Random on an island
        Random puts a spike in Corwin's boot
        Brand, Bleys, and Fiona study with Dworkin
        Corwin rules over Avalon
        Random goes to Rebma and elopes with Morganthe
        Martin born to Random and Morganthe
        Random banished from Rebma
        Martin walks Pattern, leaves Rebma
        Corwin gulls Caine
        Corwin beats Julian at his favorite game
-160y   Moonriders out of Ghenesh attack Amber
        Benedict holds the pass above Arden against the Moonriders
        Benedict leaves Amber for Avalon
        Dark things out of Shadow attack at Jones Falls
        Brand has argument with Corwin
        Corwin and Eric fight while hunting in the Forest of Arden

BEFORE THE CHRONICLES

-156y   Corwin exiled by Eric after their fight
        Brand and Gerard search for Corwin in many shadows
        Tomb built for Corwin, assumed dead
-74y    Flora goes to Shadow Earth
-72y    Flora first spots Corwin on Shadow Earth
        Dworkin tells Oberon how to destroy the Pattern
        Oberon imprisons Dworkin
        Brand, Bleys, and Fiona form cabal
        Oberon gets mad with Eric and glorifies Corwin over dinner
        Brand allies with powers from Chaos and learns how to
            destroy Pattern
-65y    Brand asks Llewella and Random about Martin
-22y    Jasra becomes consort to King Menillan of Kashfa
        King Menillan dies
        Jasra organizes coup headed by Jasrick and Kasman
        Jasra and Brand meet over magical operation, secretly marry
        Brand leaves Kashfa
        Jasra bears Rinaldo
        Jasra has Jasrick killed
        Jasra leaves for the Keep of the Four Worlds
        Rinaldo is left in charge of Kashfa
        Jasra stays in the Keep, trying to win over Sharu Garrul
        Rinaldo takes Dalt to walk the Pattern at Tir-na Nog'th
        Rinaldo worries about Jasra, attack the Keep with Dalt
        Jasra beats Sharu in a sorcerous duel, pays off Dalt
        Kasman takes over in Kashfa
        Kasman attacks the Keep in order to eliminate Jasra and
           Rinaldo
        Rinaldo leaves the Keep
        Dalt attacks the Keep on his own
        Dalt attacks Amber, fails, is wounded by Benedict
-2y     Random goes to Texorami
        Brand paints a trump of Martin
-1y9m   Brand finds Martin and stabs him over the Pattern
        Brand, Bleys, and Fiona involve Benedict with the hellmaids
        Oberon is lured away by Brand, Bleys, and Fiona
-1y6m   Oberon goes into hiding
-3m     Bleys and Eric argue over the throne; Bleys leaves Amber
        Eric seizes control of Amber
        Bleys builds military strike force
        Brand tries to win Caine over to the cabal, fails
        Eric-Caine-Julian alliance formed
        Brand sees Corwin in Tir-na Nog'th
        Brand sees Corwin is Eric's mind
        Brand under surveillance by Eric in Amber
        Bleys and Fiona split with Brand
        Corwin begins to regain memory
-2d     Brand escapes Amber, puts Corwin in Porter Sanitarium
        Brand recaptured by Eric
0       Brand escapes again, shoots Corwin's tires out
        Eric puts Corwin in Greenwood, under Flora's care
        Brand captured by Bleys and Fiona, put in Tower
        Brand calls Random for help
        Random attempts to save Brand, fails
        Julian contacts Random about the throne
        Random loses his Trumps

NINE PRINCES IN AMBER

+6d     Corwin escapes Greenwood, goes to Flora's house
        Corwin finds Flora's Trumps
        Flora attempts to return to Amber, fails
        Random arrives at Flora's house
+7d     Corwin and Random set out for Amber
        Corwin and Random take Julian prisoner in Arden, release him
        Corwin and Random save Deirdre, go to Rebma
        Random sentenced to marry Vialle
+9d     Corwin walks Pattern in Rebma
        Corwin transports himself to Amber
        Corwin and Eric fight
        Corwin goes to Bleys, encamped at Avernus
        Bleys and Corwin make alliance
        Corwin makes deals with Gerard and Caine to open the seas
        Corwin contacts Oberon and Brand by Trump, both weakly
        Corwin and Bleys build force, attack Amber, fail
+96d    Bleys falls off stairs, Corwin taken
+100d   Eric crowned
        Corwin blinded, imprisoned, fed by Lord Rein
+4y10d  Corwin escapes to Cabra with Dworkin's help
        Corwin stays with Jopin at the Lighthouse
+4y100d Corwin resists Trump contact, decides to leave Cabra

THE GUNS OF AVALON

        Corwin goes to Lorraine
        Corwin meets Lance, travels to the Keep of Ganelon
        Corwin meets Lorraine, the girl
        Someone attempts to contact Corwin once more
        Corwin and Ganelon defeat the Black Circle
        Corwin and Ganelon travel to Avalon
        Benedict defeats the Hellmaids
+5y90d  Corwin and Ganelon meet Benedict
+5y93d  Corwin meets Dara
        Ganelon kills Benedict's servants
+5y94d  Corwin gets diamonds and gunpowder
+5y95m  Corwin and Ganelon leave Avalon, encounter Black Road
        Corwin saves girl from Black Road
        Benedict chases Corwin, fights, loses
        Corwin calls Gerard to help Benedict
+5y129d Corwin gets guns on Earth
        Eric begins major battle with Black Road
        Corwin visits old house, reads Eric's message
        Ganelon and Corwin go to Riik to collect troops
+5y150d Ganelon and Corwin march on Amber
        Dara arrives in Amber
+5y156d Corwin wins battle at Amber
        Eric dies in battle
        Corwin and Random go to the Pattern
        Dara completes the Pattern
        Dara claims "Amber will be destroyed"
        Merlin born in the Courts of Chaos

SIGN OF THE UNICORN

+5y162d Caine is found dead
        Random tells his story (of the Tower) to Corwin
        Corwin attunes to the Jewel
        Flora tells her story (of Eric, etc.) to Corwin
        Corwin visits his tomb with Ganelon
+5y163d Corwin and Gerard fight, bury Caine, at the Grove of the
           Unicorn
        Corwin and Gerard see the Unicorn
        Brand is returned by united family effort
        Fiona stabs Brand
        Gerard takes care of Brand
        Caine stabs Corwin
        Corwin returns to Shadow Earth, stashes Jewel
+5y164d Random brings Corwin back to Amber
        Corwin visits Brand
        Brand recovers well
        Corwin goes to Tir-na Nog'th, gets mechanical arm from
           Benedict
+5y165d Corwin, Ganelon, and Random follow Unicorn to Primal
           Pattern

THE HAND OF OBERON

        Martin's Trump found in the Pattern
        Benedict and Random seek Martin
        Corwin talks to Vialle
+5y167d Corwin goes to Dworkin's quarters
        Corwin trumps to the Courts of Chaos, kills rider, meets
           Merlin
+5y175d Corwin returns via Gerard's Trump
        Corwin talks to Brand again
        Caine attacks Brand
        Ganelon tells Benedict about Dara
        Corwin and Benedict form alliance
        Gerard fights Corwin again, Ganelon intercedes
        Corwin talks to Julian
        Corwin returns to Earth to retrieve the Jewel, talks to
           Bill Roth
        Brand gets the Jewel first
        Corwin orders all the Patterns guarded
        Corwin talks to Fiona
        Brand show up at the Pattern in Amber, met by Gerard, flees
        Brand starts walking the Primal Pattern
        Corwin intercepts him, forces Brand to transport out
        Random finds Martin, who tells his story
        Brand goes to Tir-na Nog'th to walk Pattern there
        Benedict intercepts him, regains the Jewel, using
           mechanical arm
        Ganelon reveals himself as Oberon

THE COURTS OF CHAOS

+5y178d Oberon takes command, gives separate orders to his children
        Brand draws Trumps for Sand and Delwin, who refuse to help him
        Replay of Tir-na Nog'th scene in Amber, Benedict loses arm
        Corwin talks to Dara, learns of Merlin
        Corwin tries to repair the Pattern himself and is stopped
           by Oberon
        Corwin talks to Oberon
        Oberon orders everyone to attack Chaos
        Corwin begins his hellride
        Oberon starts walking the Pattern to repair it
        Oberon sends the Jewel to Corwin via the bird
        Brand takes Rinaldo to walk the Pattern
        Brand's first contact with Corwin ("Dad failed")
        Corwin hides in cave, meets man with scripture
        Corwin almost lured by dwarves and by Lady
        Brand's second contact with Corwin (appears with crossbow,
           loses eye)
        Corwin meets Ygg, Hugi, and the Jackal
        Corwin inscribes a new Pattern
        Brand's third contact with Corwin (grabs the Jewel)
        Corwin and Brand both transport to Chaos
        Corwin kills Duke Borel of Chaos
        Battle of Chaos
        Oberon's message in the sky
        Brand killed by Caine's crossbow, drags Deirdre over the
           cliff
        Family reunites after the battle
        Oberon's funeral
        Merlin appears
        Random made King of Amber by the Unicorn
        Corwin attunes Random to the Jewel
        Random diverts the Wave of Chaos
+5y6m   Corwin tells his story to Merlin
        Rinaldo hears of his father Brand's death, on April 30

TRUMPS OF DOOM

+5y6m   Merlin goes to Shadow Earth, studies computer science in
           college
        Bill Roth works up Patternfall Treaty between Random and
           Swayvil
        Merlin meets Luke (Rinaldo) in college
        Merlin takes his girlfriend Julia through Shadow
        Rinaldo attempts to kill Merlin on April 30
        Rinaldo tries again the next year, and the next
        Rinaldo breaks off the attempts on Merlin's life; Jasra
           continues them
+9y6m   Merlin and Rinaldo graduate and join Grand Design
        Merlin begins building Ghostwheel
        Merlin breaks up with Julia
        Jasra attempts to kill Merlin, making a total of seven tries
+13y6m  Merlin quits Grand Design, talks to Rinaldo about it
        Julia is killed by a dog-beast from Shadow
        Merlin goes to Julia's place, finds her dead, kills the
           beast
        Merlin finds the Trumps of Doom
        Merlin visits Rick Kinsky, Julia's old boyfriend
        Merlin visits Victor Melman, kills him in self-defense
        Jasra arrives at Melman's place, bites Merlin
        Merlin trumps off to the Sphinx, escapes
        Dalt gets ammo from Melman's building, burns it
        Merlin returns to Melman's building, finds a shotgun shell
        Caine murdered by Rinaldo, Bleys wounded by Rinaldo
        Merlin goes to Rinaldo's hotel, gets ring
        Merlin checks into Hilton in Santa Fe
        Merlin meets up with Rinaldo
        Dan Martinez talks to Merlin
        Merlin removes ring
        Rinaldo and Merlin drive into the country
        Rinaldo kills Martinez
        Merlin goes to Bill Roth
        Merlin meets George Hansen
        Merlin and Bill Roth go to Amber
        Random discovers that the shotgun shells explode in Amber
        Merlin talks to Fiona and goes back to a bar on Earth
        Merlin meets Meg Devlin and goes to her apartment
        Caine's funeral
        Rinaldo attempts to bomb the Amberites, fails
        Merlin tells Random about Ghostwheel, is told to shut it
           down
        Merlin tries to reach Ghostwheel, but is told to go back
        Merlin meets a lady in Shadow
        Merlin meets Rinaldo in Shadow
        Rinaldo imprisons Merlin in a crystal cave

BLOOD OF AMBER

        Merlin is locked in the crystal cave for over a month
        Merlin rigs a booby trap and escapes
        Merlin meets up with Jasra, immobilizes her, trumps to Flora
           on Earth
        Rinaldo grabs Jasra away from Merlin
        Flora tells Merlin about Jasra, Kashfa
        Merlin tells Flora about Rinaldo
        Merlin tries to call Meg Devlin and George Hansen, fails
        Mask contacts Merlin
        Flora and Merlin go to Julia's place
        Merlin goes through trap door at Julia's place
        Merlin runs into Scrof, defeats him
        Rinaldo hires Dalt to attack the Keep with him
        Merlin goes to the Keep of the Four Worlds, meets the hermit
           Dave
        Dave tells Merlin about Sharu, Dalt, Kashfa, Jasra, Rinaldo,
           Brand
        Merlin tries to move closer to the Keep, is stopped by Mask
        Merlin trumps to Amber
        Dalt intentionally wounds Rinaldo in battle at the Keep
        Random tells Merlin about Dalt and Deela
        Merlin goes to Bloody Bill's for seafood
        Merlin meets Old John, the King's emissary
        Merlin leaves, gets attacked, saved by Vinta Bayle
        Merlin and Vinta go to Arbor House, where they trade
           information
        Ghostwheel contacts Merlin
        Rinaldo calls Merlin, trumps in
        Merlin calls Dalt, Dalt shows aggression, Merlin hangs up
        Rinaldo asks Merlin to help rescue Jasra
        Merlin takes Rinaldo to crystal cave, negotiates deal
        Merlin returns to Arbor House briefly
        Merlin runs into a lop-eared wolf, which tries to kill him
           and escapes
        Merlin returns to Amber, talks to Bill Roth
        Merlin goes to Corwin's tomb
        Merlin goes to the Pattern, walks it, trumps to the Keep
        Merlin finds Jasra frozen
        Mask appears
        Merlin trumps back to Amber with Jasra
        Rinaldo contacts Merlin
        Merlin goes into the main hall
        Benedict and Random enter the mail hall
        Rinaldo tells all about Dalt's plan to attack Amber with
           riflemen
        Merlin walks into a huge trump of Rinaldo, disappears into
           Wonderland

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 87 0830-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:

                Books - Blish & Bradley & Ellison &
                        Friedberg & Hogan & Niven &
                        Varley & Williams & Wolfe &
                        Torcs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 16:21:22 GMT
From: ubc-cs!manis@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re: BLACK EASTER in-jokes

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>I'm more inclined to believe that Selahny is Samuel Delaney, who
>also tends to write parables. As others have pointed out, Atheling
>is William Atheling, who is Blish himself under a pseudonym.

Not quite. Blish wrote sf reviews in the 1950's and 1960's under the
name of "William Atheling, Jr.". They were very good reviews,
although it was most unfair of Blish to expect writers to be
grammatical, to have a consistent point of view, and, in general, to
do a serious job of plotting, characterisation, and writing.
Atheling's "father" was Ezra Pound, who wrote criticism under the
name "William Atheling" a few decades earlier.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 15:31 EST
From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

I don't recommend the more recent MZB Darkover stories, by which I
mean "Thendara House" and anything written thereafter.  Actually, I
haven't read anything by MZB after Thendara House, because it made
me so angry.  I have been told that she has continued this trend,
but I no longer care to experience it directly.

Thendara House is the sequel to The Shattered Chain.  The earlier
book was quite good, among the best that MZB has written.  For the
sequel, she got out her best industrial strength stamping equipment
and reduced a main character (Peter?)  from 2.5 dimensions to rather
close to 1 dimension.  I was not impressed by the reduction of a
moderately well developed character to a straw man.  The new
character acted in ways in which the original character would never
have acted, in order to support the author's shift from writing
fiction to writing polemics disguised as fiction.  In historians, we
call this revisionism.  It is an author's privilege to revise a
universe but usually (e.g., Van Vogt, Arthur C.  Clarke, or Orson
Scott Card) this results in a better story.  Not in this case.

I read all the then-existing Darkover books at once around 1982 at
MITSFS because I was meeting so many people at conventions who were
Darkover fans.  Although the quality was variable, it was good
enough that I could get through even the worst, and there were some
really good moments.  There is better and worse available in the
F&SF section of any good bookstore.

There is a particular genre of violence pornography of the sort
which I imagine would appeal to a "Soldier of Fortune" subscriber,
with titles like "Phoenix Force", "Mack Bolan: The Executioner", and
so on.  Another analogous phenomenon is the "Gor" series,
particularly after its 5th book.  I think that MZB has identified
militant feminism as such a specialized market and that she is now
writing for that market.

The only objection I have is that I came to the sequel expecting
more from her.  A writer has to eat, but she is clearly capable of
appealing to a larger audience.  I wish she had started with new
characters and story line when she went into politics.

I see a line between enlightened feminism, which doesn't require
female genitals to espouse, and the sort of militancy that requires
such pornography as fuel, to remind the reader who the enemy is.  I
suppose that I will now be deluged with counter-flames from people
who don't see such a line or who object to my abuse of the word
"pornography".

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 19:34:49 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison (was Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE)

g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>Even though Harlan doesn't need any defense, and you are entitled
>to an (informed) opinion, I just thought I'd point out Harlan's
>umpteen Hugos and Nebulas (he's either won more Hugos than anybody
>else, or is tied with Sturgeon), his Edgar, his awards for
>television scripts, and the recent award for his column "An Edge in
>My Voice."  Of course, this doesn't mean some people might find his
>fiction not to their liking, and even dreary, since he doesn't
>write cute bunny rabbit stories. I just thought I'd point out his
>awards.

Yup.  We're all entitled to opinions about a writer's talents and
skills.  Ellison is without doubt a highly skilled writer (*He* says
so, too); what turns me off is how he uses the language, not his
stories per se.  I enjoy dark, pithy stories (and fluff, too, at
times - BTW, was that "cute bunny stories" comment meant as an
insult of my literary constitution?  Just wondering.), but I find
Ellison's style gets in my way when reading his stories.  I often
have the same reaction to Bradbury ("Something Wicked This Way
Comes" is a marvelous exception).  That doen't mean he's a bad
writer - it doesn't mean he's not a great writer - it simply means I
generally don't like his style.

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
{whatever}!amdahl!krs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 15:02 EST
From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Bibliographic request

One of my favorite novels is Gertrude Friedberg's "The Revolving
Boy".  Friedberg was apparently a one-novel author, however: I was
never able to find anything else by her, /except/, a short story
called "The Wayward Cravat".  I read that once, thought it was one
of the most hysterically funny things I'd ever read, and then lost
it.  I've never been able to find it again.  I don't even remember
if it was SF -- I suspect it wasn't.  Please, can anyone give me a
reference for "The Wayward Cravat"?  Also, does anyone know of
anything else Ms. Friedberg has written?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 20:33:45 GMT
From: axiom!gts@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Guy Schafer)
Subject: A question about _Giant's Star_ by James P. Hogan.

I highly recommend the Giant's Trilogy by James P. Hogan: _Inherit
the Stars_, _The Gentle Giants of Ganymede_, and _Giant's Star_.
Very entertaining and full of suspense with lots of Hogan's
technically-explained, amazing ideas.

I do have one question about the plot near the end of the final book
_Giant's Star_: (SPOILER)

When VISAR took over some of JEVEX, why didn't they just stick to
the story that the Earth had remained militarized and VISAR
fabricated the disarmament.  Then JEVEX could have looked at the
(actually faked) reports of the impending strike force as if VISAR
had let it see the "truth."

By changing the information inside JEVEX so that it reported
conflicting information, the Jevlenese were bound to discover that
VISAR had penetrated it at which time it would seem obvious that the
strike force was a sham.

Even after the Jevlenese figure out that VISAR got into JEVEX, they
don't seem to figure out that the strike force was faked WHEN THAT
SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST OBVIOUS CONCLUSION!  Seems that the
broadcast from the Jevlenese base in Conneticut should have been
made and VISAR shouldn't have messed with the internal memories of
JEVEX.  Why did VISAR have to change JEVEX's memory of past events?

{decvax!linus|seismo!harvard}!axiom!gts

------------------------------

Date: 12-jan-87 00:00:00 EDT
From: <mooremj@aim.rutgers.edu>
Subject: NIven's failure to grasp large numbers

[WARNING: Mild spoliers for Ringworld Engineers]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before.  I no longer receive
the digest directly and may have missed part of the discussion.

I agree Niven *does* have a problem with large numbers.  In
Ringworld Engineers, Chmeee makes a comment about Kzin never
approaching the Earth's population of "two times eight to the
tenth".  It's repeatedly mentioned in the Ringworld books that
Earth's population at the time is about 18 billion, which is a bit
over 2 times eight to the ELEVENTH.  Eight to the tenth is about one
billion (as everyone who works with octal computers knows ;-) ).

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 21:04:40 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE

don@clunk.UUCP (Don McKillican) writes:
>Stuart Cracraft writes:
>> BLUE CHAMPAGNE is a strong collection, a worthwhile collection,
>> but not a great collection.  Varley seems to have overstepped his
>> usual bounds into sentimentality. While he writes truly great
>> erotic fiction, I find his increasing and over- powering
>> sentimentality to become somewhat oppressive after awhile.
>I was also disappointed in Blue Champage, but for very different
>reasons: what bothered me about the collection was the increasingly
>tired, cynical, and even bitter tone of so many of the stories.

On the other hand, I felt that Blue Champagne was at least as good
as Persistence of Vision, and that the title story is the single
best piece of Varley I've ever read.

>Even the much-praised "Press Enter" reminds me more of Harlan
>Ellison than of the Varley

The much-praised "Press Enter []" is also much over-rated (a great
one-time read, but when you look at it again you realize that it
simply doesn't age, it falls apart with familiarity.  Also,
basically a techno-Fantasy and not really SF.  And it is really
Varley writing Cyberpunk and not trying to emulate Ellison, but so
what?

>will also gather I am not a fan of Harlan Ellison :-)).

Obviously.  Tastes differ.  I AM a fan of Ellison, except when he
writes bad stories.  Not being a fan of Ellison is something to be
proud of?

>If this is the style that Varley wants to write in now, that is of
>course his privilege; he does it well.  Nor have I any quarrel with
>the people who enjoy it.

Oh, but you do, or you wouldn't be making these postings...

[editorial comment time:

This posting sounds suspiciously like a "if I don't like it, it
ain't good" posting.  As I said above, tastes differ.  Some people
say that cohabitating with goats is a Bad Thing.  Others swear by
it.  So what, unless it is your goat?

To overuse an analogy, this posting is like the people who say "I
really like Woody Allen films, especially the early, funny ones"
[paraphrased from Stardust Memories, for those that were wondering].
Many authors get tired of writing the same old thing.  Some even get
better with age.  Expecting an author to always write the same story
over and over again is like going to a restaurant and always
ordering the same dish.  The cook is probably going to get tired of
fixing it and you're palate is eventually going to stop tasting it.
Different, of course, doesn't always mean better, by any means, but
if all you want is a Varley book that reads as well as Persistence
of Vision, why not just re-read Persistence of Vision?  Just because
you stay in the same place doesn't mean you should ask the author
to.

Tastes change.  If an author isn't writing what you want them to
write, either find a new author (there are LOTS of them out there)
for write it yourself!  That way you have complete quality control.]

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 20:25:53 GMT
From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH
Subject: BOOKS - Tad Williams

I just picked up a new book - Tailchaser's Song by Tad Williams.
Has anbody else read this book ?  This book is similar to Watership
Down but told from a cat's point of view and a bit similar to LOTR
with legends and such like.

I throughly enjoyed the book ... being a cat lover does not hurt
either.

john hardesty
BBNCC, Hawaii
jhardest@wheeler-emh

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 87 18:05:04 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: "Free Live Free" by Gene Wolfe

Okay, so it finally came out in paperback, and I had this gift
certificate to Waldenbooks....

"Free Live Free" is actually three stories in one book, all
intermingled.  Wolfe could have written a book from any of them. In
fact, I'd rather. The book opens as four destitute people... a Gypsy
witch, a salesman, a private detective (with a badge), and a fat
hooker - these titles describe them completely - try to save the
home of Benjamin Free from destruction to make way for a new freeway
overpass. They live free - no rent - as long as they do whatever
they can to keep that building standing.

Ben Free hints that there is a ticket to his home - the "High
Country", hidden in the walls somewhere. The witch takes this in a
figurative sense... that Free is some sort of supernatural being who
has taken on the mantel of mortality for a time, and has left his
"crown" somewhere about.

In any event, Free passes out hints to everyone about the "crown",
then the house is partially destroyed and Free disappears. Okay,
that ends the first part of the book. Before I bought it, I thought
that's all there was.

But it continues for several hundred more pages. It's not the
writing I have issue with; Gene Wolfe is a fantastic writer. But as
all the characters scurry about trying to find Free and his "crown"
or "ticket", it begins to read a little like a John Irving novel,
but without the characterizations.

Because about a third of the way through the book, I realized that
every character was a stereotype - each character acted exactly as
you'd expect.  Not only the four main characters, but a reporter
from a pair of supermarket rags, employees at a mental asylum (where
everyone is automatically assumed to either be a patient, or very
much deserving to be), the fanatical cop, nosey neighbor (who talks
entirely in fractured cliches), etc.

So after a couple of hundred pages of these unrealistic characters
shuffling from one screwball encounter to another, the last part of
the book zips in to gather up the loose threads and tie them
together in one incredibly convoluted knot. I won't spoil this --
it'd take away any reason for reading the book.

My recomendation: Read the book if you can get it without paying for
it.  Or if given to you, then read the first part of the book, then
skip directly to the last part -- the middle isn't really necessary
to the ending.

Also, the American paperback edition includes a timeline of Ben
Free's life in the back. A note explains that the American publisher
asked for this, and it does not appear on foreign editions, or any
hardback edition.

And then go read Glen Cook's "A Matter of Time".

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 87 10:48 EST
From: LUCE ERIC J                  <LUCE@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: re: query for info. about torcs..

You posted a query for aid in the usage of torcs... unfortunately my
religion is not up to snuff... check the Celtic mythos, more
specifically, druidism... a torc was part of their dress.  It has
religious significance.  There is also, or was ( B-) ), a "Torc of
the gods:" Made by Goibhnie (their "blacksmith of the gods.")  It
was, I believe, given to heroes of that mythos.  My spelling is
undoubtedly off, but check for the following names: Dagda, "the
dozen king," Arawn, "The Dark One," (their god of the dead.)
Goibhnie, "the blacksmith of the gods," Morrigan "the goddes of
war," Oghma, "The Binder, Patron of music," (or bards, or minstrels,
or skjalds, their god of knowledge.)  The list goes on and on.  Oh,
and, yes, for a famous hero-type: Cu Chulainn (there are several
more proper spellings, but I can't remember them... my celtic is in
real poor shape.)

Eric Luce
ARPA:   luce@ge-crd.arpa
UUCP:   seismo!rpics!rpiacm!scanner
BITNET: useretta@rpitsmts.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 87 0844-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:

         Television - Anderson (2 msgs) & Galaxy Rangers &
                      Robotech (4 msgs) & Salvage 1 (3 msgs) &
                      Star Trek (3 msgs) & Twilight Zone

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 87 09:11:18 GMT
From: jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Fanderson : The Gerry Anderson Appreciation Society

Hello. During a brief period a while back this newsgroup was treated
to a flurry of articles regarding the work of Gerry Anderson. As a
long-time GA fan, I volunteered the address of the Gerry Anderson
Appreciation Society -- FANDERSON -- to anyone who e-mailed me
(trying to avoid those oh-so-tedious repetative messages). The
response was poor, to say the least. However, having lost those
messages but wishing to keep my promise despite the cost to the net,
here it comes :=

Helen McCarthy
147 Francis Road
Leyton
London
E10 6NT
England

As a FANDERSON member, you will recieve copies of a nice little
fanzine, SIG (Supermarionation Is Go); this contains enough info to
dispel those awful misconceptions caused by foggy memories of those
60's puppet shows.

If you do write, tell em who sent ya!

Anderson.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 19:29:03 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Thunderbirds, by Gerry Anderson

  Does anyone out there remember Thunderbirds?  A series by Gerry
Anderson (sp?) which used Supermarionation, a type of puppeteering
with electronics.

It is really important to me. I am looking for a products list for
the Thunderbirds television series. Can someone tell me how many
episodes were filmed, what they were, (I remember I was about 6 when
I used to watch it) and some info about the show?

Also, I have seen the video tape of the movie "Thunderbird 6" and
wondered if there were other movies out on video from MGM/UA or
others.

Can anyone tell me the address for Corgi toys? I remember that they
used to make metal models (Toys) of the Thunderbirds, because a
friend of mine had a Thunderbird 2 way back then. Would there still
be any around? Also, I had a model of Thunderbird 1. Can anyone tell
me the address of the company who made the Thunderbirds models?

Any leads would be appreciated, from addresses of companies who put
out baseball-type cards, to addresses of people who wouldn't mind
parting with some of the items they have.

What I am mainly after, is info on Thunderbird 1 and 2, a list of
the videos available, and to purchase models and toys.

HELP!

Sean Huxter
Apt. 420
235 Blackmarsh Rd.
St. John's, NF, Canada
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4,mcvax,utesri}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 86 09:41:06 GMT
From: crash!victoro@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: SF on television

Another current animated episode (Robotech is still tops!) is the
program "Galaxy Rangers."  As my taping assistant said today, "this
show doesn't stuff parental warnings down the viewer's throat, like
so many cartoon programs these days."  This show has intelligence.
It should be supported.  And, as I hear of parental groups marching
support of formula children's programming (You haven't heard of He-Man
day?) I feel that the few good shows get lost in the shuffle.

(Stay tuned - Episode guide soon to follow.)
San Diego Area: Channel 51 Daily 8AM M-F

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd,akgua,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 86 17:02:52 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: SF on television

   I doubt if it's any news to anybody, but Robotech is one of the
best animated SF shows ever to be produced.  The storyline is one of
the few capable of being enjoyed by any age group.  The characters
are vivid and have complex personalities.  I just started watching
it this summer, but it's been going for quite a while as I
understand it.

   Currently Robotech is a long continuing story which in turn is
actually a concatenation of 3 stories.  The first story is "The
Macross Saga" and stars Rick Hunter, Lynn Minmei and Lisa Hayes in a
love triangle which is not quite soap-opera level.  The war against
the Zentraedi at times seems only to form a backdrop for this story
and some of the other stories which give this series such a rich
texture.  Another late developing story is the strange love affair
between Max Sterling and Miriya who almost killed him.  This is NOT
Hanna - Barbara stuff!  When you see one of the principal girls
getting stoned in a bar because her love is spending the night with
another girl (albeit without sex) and death is made very real with
key cast members dying (no reincarnations and hanging around a la
Ben Kenobi stuff) you can be sure you aren't just seeing Jonny
Quest.

Cheers!

Jim O.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 86 04:56:06 GMT
From: weitek!robert@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Re: SF on television

Robotech may have no reincarnations, but it sure has one whale of a
lot of flashbacks.  It seems like every sixth episode is composed of
previous footage!

Karen Black
c/o
Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 86 03:42:59 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: SF on television

robert@weitek.UUCP (Karen L. Black) writes:
>Robotech may have no reincarnations, but it sure has one whale of a
>lot of flashbacks.  It seems like every sixth episode is composed
>of previous footage!

   Yeah, but they're really *great* flashbacks, right? ;-)

   Actually, so far my favorite episodes are Broken Heart, Rainy
Night, Farewell Big Brother, Season's Greetings, To The Stars in The
Macross Saga and Dana's Story in the Robotech Masters.  Dana's Story
is at least 1/2 flashbacks.

   My favorite characters so far (I've seen about 1/2 of all the
episodes I think) are Roy Fokker and Dana Sterling, with Max and
Miriya Sterling a close 2nd.  My favorite scene is probably the
video game sequence when Max first meets Miriya face to face.  Hey,
Minmei's not so bad.  In her own way she had more guts than Lisa
Hayes.  Lisa had Claudia to give her encouragement.  Minmei didn't
have anybody to help her face Rick (in the Christmas episode).

Cheers!

Jim O.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 13:24:45 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: SF on television

Does anybody out there in net land know when Robotech will arrive in
Britain I've seen the graphic novels in a local specialist comic
shop but nobody there knows when or if it will be televised here

Thanks in advance
Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 18:00:21 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF on television

From: mccutchen%nuhavn.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (R. TERRY MCCUTCHEN)

>    There are two SF television shows that I haven't seen anyone
> mention. One stared Andy Griffen (sp?) and was named something
> like SALVAGE 7.

That's Andy Griffith and SALVAGE 1, which, despite it's stupid
premise, wasn't a bad show at all. Interestingly enough, one of the
co-producers was Harve Bennett, who is more well known for producing
the last three STAR TREK films.

> The other was a Jack Webb production where they did various UFO
> sightings (I don't remember the title, maybe PROJECT BLUEBOOK)

This was PROJECT U.F.O., sort of a "CE3K meets DRAGNET".

("Just the pseudo-facts, M'am.")

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 86 23:48:36 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: SF on television

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>That's Andy Griffith and SALVAGE 1, which, despite it's stupid
>premise, wasn't a bad show at all. Interestingly enough, one of the
>co-producers was Harve Bennett, who is more well known for
>producing the last three STAR TREK films.

You might have also noticed the tech. advisor: a biochemist from New
York, by the name of Asimov.  (And, it also starred Bruce Boxleitner
(sp?), for you triv buffs.  But, who was the female?  Hmm,...)

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 86 13:21:49 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF on television

kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>>That's Andy Griffith and SALVAGE 1,
> (And, it also starred Bruce Boxleitner (sp?), for you triv buffs.
> But, who was the female?  Hmm,...)

No it didn't.  It starred

Andy Griffith as Harry Broderick
Joel Higgins as Skip Carmichael
Trish Stewart as Melanie Slozar
Richard Jaeckel as Jack Klinger

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 86 13:45:36 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: Saturday Night Live

I hope all the Trekkies out there saw William Shatner on SNL two
weeks ago.  The first skit was a convention, where the people were
wearing I GROK SPOCK, etc. T-shirts. I saw one there that I wouldn't
mind having. Then, someone announced the sale of DeForrest Kelly's
(sp??) new hit single, "He's dead, Jim!". One of the guests was
Yeoman (something-or-other), supposedly from the first 15 minutes of
one of the episodes. Then Shatner came in, as the guest of honor.
After trying to field questions about Kirk's safe combination and
Shatner's ranch, he went off on this big speech about "Get a life,
people!"  After a heated argument with the con manager, he got back
on stage and announced that he was recreating the role of the Evil
Captain Kirk, from "The Enemy Within", episode 34 (34 is "The
Changeling"). The second skit was "STAR TREK V--THE RESTAURANT
ENTERPRISE". The people playing Spock and McCoy had it just right.
This skit featured Khan, finally getting his revenge on Kirk by
bringing in a health inspector. Kirk rapidly borrows some money from
Spock and Bones and foils Khan's plan by bribing the inspector. The
other skit showed Shatner prancing in front of a mirror in T-shirt
and boxers, boasting to his wife about how good he looked ("Look at
that butt!") This show was too good to miss. If you did, find
someone who taped it and watch it.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 16:18:32 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: re: James Kirk

ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp) asks about the ST episode "The Conscience of
the King" where Kirk fingers Kodos the Executioner, and how this can
be reconciled with his Iowa farm upbringing.

It was my impression that the incident in TCotK occurred when Kirk
was a young man, not a child.  Perhaps Kirk was assigned to this
planet while a young officer in StarFleet, assuming that he joined
when he was 18 or so.

Oh well, this isn't one of my favorite episodes anyway, so I don't
really care about whether it maintains continuity.

Brett Slocum
ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 87 04:46:28 GMT
From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241)
Subject: Star Trek; The New Generation

Paramount has signed Rodenberry to do a new series.  The Working
Title is Star Trek; The New Generation.  Based on Briefing by David
Gerrold, a member of Rodenberry's staff and the screen writer for
The Trouble with Tribbles, at Universe 87 and Loscon XIII,
Rodenberry is trying to put together a good show that will be fun to
watch.  They would like to duplicate the success of the orginal ST
without copying the Original.  The production is going directly to
the syndicating stations.  As of December 125 have signed on.  There
is no repeat NO network involvment.  Paramount has committed for 26
hours of production for the first season. (at a million dollars an
hour to produce)
   Cast has not been selected yet.  There will be about eight main
characters.  Four male and four female.  The attributes of the
characters are still being worked on.  Gerrold admits that cast
selection will be the hardest thing they have to do.
   Screenwriters for the the first six scripts have been contracted.
All of the screenwriters either worked for the original ST from the
first season or are known to fandom as followers of the "true path."
   The Enterprise is still the ship.  The mission is basically the
same.  The ship is the 1701H.  It is larger and has about double the
crew.  There is provision on the ship for family of crew.  (no
provision for family on the bridge!)

Gerrold and other members of Rodenberry's staff are trying to go to
conventions to spread official rumors and quell crap.

I think that Rodenberry is trying to make a good show.  We will have
to see.  At least we only have to wait until September to find out.

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 87 05:32:38 GMT
From: ut-sally!kelvin@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kelvin Thompson)
Subject: last word on Ellison and Twilight Zone

The Feb. 1987 issue of _Twilight_Zone_ magazine (only remotely
affiliated with the TV show -- they both bought rights to the name
from Serling's daughter) spends a good twenty pages on the flap that
caused Harlan Ellison to leave the TV-TZ show a year ago.  Included
are...

  "Nackles" -- A reprint of the orignial short story by Donald
  Westlake that inspired the segment that Ellison wrote.

  "Nackles" -- Ellison's teleplay that caused all the problems.
  Special sidebars contain dialogue that was added or modified to
  mollify the censors.

  "The Deadly 'Nackles' Affair" -- Ellison gives his side of the
  affair.

My impressions?  Glad you asked.  I was sort of disappointed by it
all.  I was hoping the original story and teleplay would be nicely
wicked and that Ellison's account of the flap would be full of
scathing accounts of Hollywood backstabbing and bullshitting (like
in his Glass Teat books).  Nope.  The original story (about a man
describing an anti-Santa-Claus to keep his kids in line, and it
gradually coming true) is pretty average for that type of story.
Ellison's teleplay is better, but still would have been
disappointing if it had aired.

And Ellison's writeup has no surprises -- he talks a lot about how
he should have known better than to get into TV again, but got
coaxed by some nice people (the show's producers); and the
cancellation of the "Nackles" segment happened about like you'd
expect: one censor reluctantly approved the script, then a new
censor came in and shut the project down just when they were on the
verge of shooting.  I can understand his frustration (it would have
been his first directing project), but Ellison of all people should
not have been surprised (as Ellison himself admits).

A quick plug for the magazine: If you like horror and odd fantasy
stories, I highly recommend TZ magazine.  Each issue has 6-12 short
stories, usually excellent, plus book and movie reviews.
Unfortunately, the magazine doesn't show up much on magazine stands
(at least here in Austin, TX).

Kelvin Thompson
kelvin@sally.utexas.edu
kelvin@mcc.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 87 0859-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Card &
                          Niven (2 msgs) & Wolfe & 
                          Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 07:14:38 PST (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Teckla

The point for me is the Brust had already proven that he was a
superlative author with Jhereg and Yendi.  His books were first
class entertainment, better than anything I had read in the field
for a long time.  Nobody needs to apologize for writing a
fantastically good read.  Teckla simply wasn't as much fun to read
as the other two.

          ****** Possible Spoiler Material Follows *******

I don't generally need to search in literature to find painful
changes and unclear issues, since I tend to see plenty of them in
real life all the time (What an admission!).  It's the same reason I
don't generally go to see movies like "Who's afraid of Virginia
Woolfe". What pleased me about Jhereg and Yendi both was that there
was plenty of convoluted plot, lots of interesting characters, and
massive doses of imagination.  Vlad worked on his problems and
through cleverness and competence managed to solve them.

Teckla was different. We are treated to an excruciating view of the
poor and opressed, a sudden total alteration of character in Cawti
(who a few weeks ago in story time was relishing the chance to do an
assasination to help Vlad out, and who now is a veritable angel of
mercy spouting "power of the armed masses" rhetoric), a situation
where Vlad tries lots of stuff with never better than extremely
mixed results. Vlad ends up hating himself and half the other
characters while accomplishing virtually nothing except setting
himself up for MUCH more pain in a later book. Is this fun?

Having made my tirade, an aside for those who enjoy speculating
about our favorite assasin. Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I now
begin to suspect?

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 03:43:35 GMT
From: dzoey@terminus.umd.edu (Joe I. Herman)
Subject: Re: Teckla

I just finished Teckla, and let me tell you, it's not the carefree
book that Jhereg and Yendi were.  I had hoped to sit down with this
book and have a couple of hours of good laughs and pure escapism.
This is not that kind of a book.  From the other reviews I've read,
this is what most people wanted the book to be, which does lead to
some less than enthusiastic reviews.

As a book (and not 'as the book I wanted to read') I very much
enjoyed Teckla.  I have long felt that SKZB's strength was in his
characterizations and the good way he communicates his characters to
the reader.  This book allowed Vlad to become a much more
complicated person than the happy-go-lucky assassin he was in his
earlier books and I found I was more involved in this book than the
previous two.  What was a little disconcerting was the change in
Cawti's character.  SKZB explained it away by saying that Vlad
hadn't noticed she was becoming different until all of a sudden, she
was a 'different person' from the one he married.  This explanation
seemed a little superficial at first, but from what I've heard from
people who've gotten divorced after quite a few years, it may be
true.  Either way, having troubles with Cawti allowed me to believe
Vlad's lack of direction throughout the book.  After all, if I was
fighting the woman I loved, I'd be distraught also.  I felt this was
a good reason for Vlad to be so unsure of himself, which otherwise
would have been way out of character.  Nicely executed.

I do have some problems with the book.  First of all, it's not the
book I wanted to read. :-) Second of all, I find reading about a
character's constant indecision sort of dull.  Granted, SKZB does a
better job of keeping the book interesting than most authors, but
some of the book kept reminding me of Steven Donaldsons extremely
dull and pedantic style.

There are some things I wonder about the book.  Vlad mentions a few
times about Sethra telling him he was a reincarnated Dragaerian.  I
don't remember the scene where she tells him this.  Was it in one of
the other books?  (I know, I should go back and re-read them again).
Also, it seems to me that SKZB likes the idea of revolution.
Revolution was a key part in his last two books (Brokedown and To
Reign In Hell) as well as Teckla.  I wonder what the fascination is?
One thing I really liked, even though it did slow the book down
sometimes, was the arguments between the 60's call to revolution
philosophy and the 80's cynicism.  I found the arguments on both
sides very well portrayed.  Also, I kept trying to think of how the
story would be told if Cawti was narrating the tale.  Unfortunatly,
Cawti's character wasn't developed enough for me to really do this.

So, if you want a good lite read then this may not be the book
you're looking for.  But, you will want to read this book
eventually.  It tells it's story very well, and Vlad becomes a very
engrossing character.  It is a little depressing, partly because it
is a tragicomedy and partly because the human interaction and
problems are very real.

Three stars,
Dzoey
DZOEY@TERMINUS.UMD.EDU
DZOEY@UMDD.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 21:08:45 GMT
From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: Teckla

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
> Having made my tirade, an aside for those who enjoy speculating
> about our favorite assasin. Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I
> now begin to suspect?

I'm inclined to agree. This is the first time we've learned anything
about Spellbreaker and Sethra's (was it her - I can't remember)
reaction to Vlad finding it does suggest "great weapon". There are
so many stories here that I would like to hear (like Vlad's trip to
deathgate falls, when Vlad met Morollan, when Catwi held a dagger to
Morollan.. <apologies for mangling everyone's names>).

Yes I did find Catwi's change in character a little hard to swallow.
Especially once I realized how shortly after Jhereg Teckla takes
place.  However I liked Teckla if only for its style. There were
definite differences in style between Brokedown Palace, To Reign in
Hell and the stories of Vlad but Teckla *was* recognizably a Vlad
story.

question: Did Devera appear? I read Teckla fairly quickly and can
only think of one possible reference but then it could have been
wishful thinking. When Franz appeared, for a moment(during the
explanation of how souls move about) I thought it was Devera but....

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 06:36:49 GMT
From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Ender's Game and qualities of good fiction

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
> I think that Ender's Game is an example of *just* the sort of
> thing Spinrad was proposing as Good; it transcends and enlarges
> the plastic replaceable plot, by exposing its flaws.

My opinion is that Ender's Game and more particularly its sequel
Speaker for the Dead were not especially well written.  But I agree
with you that they're not flawed merely for having cliched plot
elements.

> I assert that *story* is the most important factor in fiction, and
> that the quality of the story can be measured by how deeply one
> becomes immersed, hypnotised, enthralled by the story. ... I think
> unpredictability of the plot also enhances this: if I know what is
> coming, it no longer excites me.

Here I disagree.  To me, the plot itself is much much less important
than the quality of its presentation (you mention some of this in
the parts I cut out).  If I had to depend on not knowing what was
coming to maintain my interest in a book, I would never reread
anything; but one of the criteria I use to determine whether I
consider a book good is how well it stands up to rereading.

Your mileage may vary of course; and certainly suspense is not
totally unimportant for me (or I would read spoilers instead of
skipping them).  But I don't think you should say that 'story is
most important' as an objective fact rather than merely as part of
your own set of values (I may be agreeing with you again here).

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
seismo!columbia!cs!eppstein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 18:07:12 PST
From: Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

I think everybody is missing the essential points about
teleportation.

1. It will take millions of years to cross the galaxy(let alone to
other galaxies) in order to construct this network of teleportation
booths.

2.Even in Niven's stories not all booths could connect with every
other booth. There were local networks of booths that covered
cities. There were national networks that covered countries and
there was an international network that covered the Earth.
  Every change in network involved a physical appearance and
redialing in order to move around. Imagine all the dialling involved
and time spent in booths.

3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth
designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of the
Earth. In Nivens stories there was gigantic structure in the middle
of Lake Superior for this situation. The water surrounding the
structure(a big styrofoam bubble?) absorbed the energy.
  Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from
moving between planets or solar systems that have velocity
differentials of thousands of miles per second(kps for those metric
freaks) instead of the hundreds of miles per HOUR(kpH) on earth?

People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer
booths.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 20:52:57 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

I seem to have come in late to the discussion regarding transfer
booths.

Bruce_Schuck@SFU.Mailnet said:
>1. It will take millions of years to cross the galaxy(let alone to
>other galaxies) in order to construct this network of teleportation
>booths.

Unless you invent a transporter that does not require a receiver.
Star Trek is an obvious example, but you might also like "All The
Colors Of Darkness" by Biggle.  Biggle goes on to suggest a space
ship that moves by transporting itself (transmitter and all) to the
limit of its range, then doing it again (a hop at a time).

>2.Even in Niven's stories not all booths could connect with every
>other booth. There were local networks of booths that covered
>cities. There were national networks that covered countries and
>there was an international network that covered the Earth.
>  Every change in network involved a physical appearance and
>redialing in order to move around. Imagine all the dialling
>involved and time spent in booths.

Why is the re-dialing necessary?  Even if you do have to appear at
each stop, the next hop could be routed for you.

>3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth
>designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of the
>Earth. In Nivens stories there was gigantic structure in the middle
>of Lake Superior for this situation. The water surrounding the
>structure(a big styrofoam bubble?) absorbed the energy.

I seem to remember something heftier, like an island of steel in the
middle of a lake of mercury.  And two of them: small for people, a
large one for freight.  (But I coulda mis-remembered)

>  Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from
>moving between planets or solar systems that have velocity
>differentials of thousands of miles per second(kps for those metric
>freaks) instead of the hundreds of miles per HOUR(kpH) on earth?
>
>People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer
>booths.

You just need a larger damping mechanism.

But why do you need the damper at all?  Why not just send the
pattern of the item and re-construct it on the spot.  Depending on
the scanning technology and laws involved, the original would either
be free to go on its way, destroyed for book-keeping, or destroyed
as part of the scan.

For other visions of transporter technology, try:
   "Way Station" - Simak
   "Cookoo Is Coming" - Pohl?
   "Spock Must Die" - Blish?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 00:57:05 GMT
From: gouvea@husc4.harvard.edu (fernando gouvea)
Subject: Re: Free Live Free

matt@inuxg.UUCP writes:
>> Now, does anyone want to discuss [...] why
>> it's so difficult trying to get through "Free Live Free" even
>>though it's written in the most accessible language Gene Wolfe has
>>ever produced?
>
>Funny you should mention this.  I bought Free Live Free a couple of
>weeks ago and after four nights of struggle set it aside.  And this
>is from someone who LOVED TBOTNS series (I have read it four
>times).  Wolfe seems to draw up an interesting bunch of characters
>in FLF but they (the characters) don't go anywhere, and they are
>going nowhere _very_ slowly.
>
>Maybe I was expecting something more like Soldier of the Mist in
>that not only are the characters interesting but the situations
>themselves are interesting and layered in complexity.

I guess I'm strange, but I liked it quite a bit.  I really liked the
way Wolfe took these character stereotypes (all four main characters
are types we've all seen before) and brought them to life.  I found
the book funny, and light, and pleasant to read.  The first time
through, I was a little frustrated by the convoluted ending, but the
second time, when I was no longer worried about figuring out what
was going on, I enjoyed the book a lot.

To be sure, this is minor Wolfe, but I found it quite readable.  I
agree that Soldier of the Mist is something far more substantial,
but I'm surprised people are having trouble finishing Free Live
Free.  Maybe it's just that I like Wolfe and his writing so much
that I don't see the problems you all see.  Those out there reading
this, I vote you give FLF a try.

Fernando

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 02:46:05 GMT
From: sdsu!cademy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Robert Cademy)
Subject: AMBER

                   ****** SPOLIER WARNING!******

Well, I just finished reading the AMBER postings of some time back,
and I have some things to add.  Rather than cover past ground, I
will hit a subject that I did not see in the postings.

This is: what do the last few "Alice in Wonderland" pages of Blood
of Amber mean.  Here are my thoughts:

When Merlin is being pulled into wonderland, he feels this:

   "There was a mad power I could not fight and the universe seemed
   to twist as it took hold of me.  Constellations parted before me
   and I saw the bright railing again..."

I found the following passage in Courts of Chaos (pg 127 paperback):

   "'It is like the last chapter of _Alice_,' I said.  'If I shout,
   'You are only a pack of cards!' I feel we will all fly into the
   air, a hand of painted pasteboards.  I am not going with you.
   Leave me here.  I am only the Joker, anyway.'"

This was Corwin talking to Fiona, shortly after Brand is killed.

Now, if we are to assume that created patterns take on elements of
their creator, can we conclude that the pattern Corwin made has
Alice in Wonderland inscribed in it?

To really grasp at straws; Rinaldo (Luke) was flying into the Keep
of Four Worlds when he can't remember exactly what happened.  Could
the Keep be a junction of Chaos, Amber, Corwin's Universe, and some
other world?  And when Rinaldo flew in he got caught up in a "jet
stream" and flung into Corwin's Universe?  Could Corwin have pulled
him in, and used him to get to Merlin?

Ideas???

Robert Cademy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 87 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Asimov & Blish & Brust &
                          Bradley (2 msgs) & Donaldson &
                          Gerrold & Niven & Varley &
                          Zelazny & Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 12:49:48 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Re: Foundation and Earth by Isaac Asimov

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
> Recently I finished "Foundation and Earth", the supposed
> termination of the new combined Foundation/Robot series by Asimov.
> [ ... ] But what about the synapsifier and the Earth conspiracy?
> Has Asimov left a giant loose end or is another book on the way?

I dunno about the synapsifier Brad, but I have heard that "Prelude
to Empire" is the next one on the way.  Not sure when it's supposed
to be published.

I also predict at least one more Robot novel ... Daneel must have
had MANY experiences worth writing about during those MANY thousands
of years :-)!

kim
UUCP:{sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim
DDD: 408-746-8462
USPS:Amdahl Corp.  M/S 249,  1250 E. Arques Av,  Sunnyvale, CA 94086

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 11:47:26 est
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V11 #417

>> Father Selahny, a terrifying kabalist who spoke in parables and
>> of whom it was said that no one since Leviathan had understood
>> his counsel;
>
>  Are there any other writers buried in there?

The first task or test that Baines sets Ware is to kill Governor
Rogan of California; Reagan, of course.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 17:58:20 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Teckla

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
>Teckla was different. We are treated to an excruciating view of the
>poor and opressed, a sudden total alteration of character in Cawti
>(who a few weeks ago in story time was relishing the chance to do
>an assasination to help Vlad out, and who now is a veritable angel
>of mercy spouting "power of the armed masses" rhetoric), a
>situation where Vlad tries lots of stuff with never better than
>extremely mixed results. Vlad ends up hating himself and half the
>other characters while accomplishing virtually nothing except
>setting himself up for MUCH more pain in a later book. Is this fun?

I don't know whether it was fun or not, but by all the gods and
goddesses, it was good.  Real people do behave like Cawti.  The have
fantastic personality shifts for all the right reasons -- and you
can't believe the reasons.  Cawti is alive and brilliant, and I
would like to wring her goddamnded neck at the earliest opportunity
because I can't stand the pain of watching her make such real,
courageous mistakes......Hot damn!  Steven Brust is God.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 07:00:15 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Sword of Aldones - not all that bad.

mangoe@mimsy.UUCP writes:
>Avoid _Sword of Aldones at all cost.

This one is a matter of taste.  Personally I feel that Sword of
Aldones is a fun book to read.  Of course I may be a little biased
in that I read it shortly after realizing that fiction had some
virtue to it after all.  It was also my first all-nighter.  Granted
it was poorly written and does not mesh at all with the rest of the
series - but if you view it by itself the images and ideas in it are
fascinating.

So my recommendation is that rather than avoiding it - a person
reading the series for the first time sould seek it out as one of
the first to read so you can enjoy it without worrying about
continuity with the rest of the series.

A question to consider for you died in the wool Darkover fans out
there: How many Ideas were introduced in Sword of Aldones that were
droped even before MZB started treating Darkover as a coherent
series (for this I'm considering the dividing line to be before
Darkover Landfall although I could make a case for it being as late
as the Forbidden Tower or the Bloody Sun [rewrite])

Just a few to jog your memory:
1. "Even in the Comyn there was no love lost between the Altons and
   the Ardais" (quote not exact but the sentiment is)
2. "The Compact was law on all the worlds of the Darkovan League"
3. The glowing radioactive hulks on the field of the Ancient Starships
4. Darkovans being clausterphobic.

This does no include a few inconsistancies that only croped up in
the Heritage of Hastur like the color of Marjorie Scot's hair.  Just
the background details that were changed.

Another question that I cant think of the answer to at the moment -
in just what book did Darkover become an Ice planet.  In most of the
books published by Ace (the early ones) I don't remember any special
memtion of an excepionally cold climate being made.  Except for Star
of Danger - but Kennard and Larry were hiking in the mountains with
minimal equipment.

Covert C Beach
{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 19:04:22 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Sword of Aldones - not all that bad.

Personally, I think Sword of Aldones is a) badly written, and b) way
outside the (loosely) consistent Darkovan timeline & society. (Same
goes for Planet Savers.) But I wanted to mention my favorite
ridiculous moment in early Darkover, from Star of Danger. Kennard
and Larry are hiking through the wilds, and in a tense moment
Kennard turns to Larry and says: (brace yourself)

"Here, Lerrys! Hold my starstone!"

I mean, _really_.

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 17:13:43 GMT
From: ihlpl!alle@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Marguerite Czajka)
Subject: Donaldson

Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen
Donaldson.  I think I have the author right!  - anyway the one who
wrote the Thomas Covenant books.  Since I enjoyed the TC books, I
thought I'd read this one but I was surprised to find out it doesn't
end - it says it's continued in "A Man Rides Through".  Does anyone
know if this second book is out?  I couldn't find it the bookstores
I went to, and the book club doesn't list it.

Marguerite
ihnp4!iwsan!maggie2

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 03:51:47 GMT
From: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: David Gerrold

Does anybody know if there are any plans for mhorr of the Chtorr
books? (apologies to Anne McCaffrey).

I have the first two, and it's been TWO YEARS since _A Day for
Damnation_ came out.

I really enjoyed these a lot (and I liked the second one better),
and have been anxiously awaiting the next book, but have never heard
anything.

Thanks.
Bob Myers
myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 87 19:31:40 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Is this any way to run a transfer booth system?

Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
> 1. It will take millions of years to cross the galaxy(let alone to
> other galaxies) in order to construct this network of
> teleportation booths.

Well.... I guess this is right if "a tenth of a million" qualifies
as "millions", and assuming that the construction is limited to
lightspeed.

> 2.Even in Niven's stories not all booths could connect with every
> other booth. There were local networks of booths that covered
> cities. There were national networks that covered countries and
> there was an international network that covered the Earth.
>   Every change in network involved a physical appearance and
> redialing in order to move around. Imagine all the dialling
> involved and time spent in booths.

Ok, let's imagine these problems.  Let's assume a heirarchically
arranged net, where one can transfer only to nodes of the net on the
same level, one particular distinguished "parent node" on the next
level up, or to any of the nodes on the next level down for which
you are currently at the "parent node".  Ok.  Let's assume that the
heirarchy groups things into four-digit-sized groups.  How many
transfers would one have to make, worst case, to get between any two
nodes in a galaxy-sized heirarchically arranged group of such nodes
(a trillion street addresses per star, one hundred million stars)?
If the heirarchy were pretty optimally laid out, at worst nine
transfers, dialing between 1 and 5 digits at each transfer.

To be precise about this "between 1 and 5" stuff, let's assume that
a standard telephone keypad is used.  "*" means "go to parent node",
"#" followed by four digits means "go to a sibling node", and four
digits without a special prefix means "go to a child node".  So, to
get to Aunt Mirabelle's across town, dial "#4386".  To get to Cousin
Jane the other side of the big city, dial "* <xfer> #2654 <xfer>
3467".  To get to anyplace on earth, the worst case is something
like "* <xfer> * <xfer> #9999 <xfer> 9999 <xfer> 9999".  We might
make a special case for nodes with no child nodes, so that to get to
Mirabelle's place, you could just dial 4386 and leave off the
sibling prefix.

To make the system ten thousand times bigger adds only two transfers
to the worst case, so even if things are very sloppy or if you
colonize more stars more densely, you should be able to get away
with fewer than 20 or so transfers, and this is to get anywhere in
the galaxy from anywhere else in the galaxy, down to the
street-address level or finer.  Think of how many transfers (from
one carrier to another) one has to make right now, just to get
between any two points on earth at the street-address level, and
suddenly galactic teleportation doesn't look so bad.  I mean, I
think I've had worse transfer problems in the NYC subway system.

> 3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth
> designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of
> the Earth.
>   Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from
> moving between planets or solar systems

Yes, I can imagine it.  One transfer.  In particular, transfers to
parent or child nodes would be hooked up to some momentum sink like
Niven's in Lake Superior.  Each planet might have a weight in a lake
as Niven outlined, each some-size-or-other group of stars would have
a black hole or two to throw momentum into, the galaxy might have a
whopping big mother of a black hole at the center (come to think of
it... it really might).  So each transfer not at a leaf node could
take care of the momentum difference, just as the transfers between
"airports" did this for Niven's stories.

> People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer
> booths.

Not at all.  But y'all are overlooking the most serious shortcoming
from the transfer booth technology described in "Flash Crowd" and
other stories.  The transfer was lightspeed, not instantaneous.  So
you could dial yourself across the galaxy with nine transfers, take
another nine to get back... and you will have been gone 200,000
years, though it would have been a few minutes to you.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 11:41:33 GMT
From: clunk!don@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Don McKillican)
Subject: Re: John Varley's BLUE CHAMPAGNE

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
> On the other hand, I felt that Blue Champagne was at least as good
> as Persistence of Vision, and that the title story is the single
> best piece of Varley I've ever read.

No quarrel with the title story.  It's my personal favorite from the
collection as well.

>>If this is the style that Varley wants to write in now, that is of
>>course his privilege; he does it well.  Nor have I any quarrel
>>with the people who enjoy it.
>
> Oh, but you do, or you wouldn't be making these postings...
>
> [editorial comment time: This posting sounds suspiciously like a
> "if I don't like it, it ain't good" posting.

NO!  And if that is the impression I am giving, I offer my startled
apologies.  What I was trying to say is that I did not like a lot of
the book.  That's all.  My reasons, which I stated, have a lot more
to do with the emotional atmosphere of the stories than their
literary quality.

What I said was basically that I had read Blue Champagne, that I had
enjoyed a lot of Varley's early work, but that I did not enjoy Blue
Champagne, specifically because of what I perceive as a tired,
cynical atmosphere pervading especially the last half of the book.
The only implication I meant anyone to draw from this was that if
you enjoyed the early Varley, but do not enjoy tired, cynical
fiction, then you quite conceivably may not like Blue Champagne
either.

I am not trying to say that Varley's technical skills as a writer
have deserted him.  I would be very surprised were that to happen.
But I also have no problem saying both that I think something is
well-written (as far as I can judge), and that I don't like it.  Is
this what is bothering you?

Certainly an author is entitled to change over time.  And I agree
with you, Chuq, that it can be fascinating thing to watch.  I don't
happen to enjoy this trend of Varley's, that's all.  And if it
continues, yes, Chuq, I actually do know enough to stop reading it.
Thank you for your advice.

Don McKillican
seismo!mnetor!genat!clunk!don
{utcs,utai,utzoo,watmath}!lsuc!clunk!don

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 04:31:25 GMT
From: g-clark@gumby.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark)
Subject: Re: Amber

>And while we're on the subject, the second novel featuring Pol
>Detson (_Madwand_) left me with a distinct impression that Zelazny
>wasn't finished with this character.  Is there another book
>published (or planned?).

From what I've heard, Zelazny wrote the next book, but there was a
disagreement between him and the publisher over money, so the book
didn't get published. I don't know if it ever will be published, but
I'd like to see it some day.  (I think this is right. I might be
thinking of a different book)

Morgan Clark
g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 11:03:16 CST
From: William Martin <control@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Typos in SF Books

Just to add some comments to the discussion on typos:

The John Varley BLUE CHAMPAGNE book I posted a recommendation of a
couple days ago, even though put out by a small press, was plagued
with typos. That surprised me, as I thought the small presses
justified their existence by producing a higher-quality product than
the majors did, by taking more care and being painstaking with all
aspects of production. One aspect of that book I had meant to
mention was that the typeface was wretched. I don't know enough
about typography to say just what was wrong with it, or why I hated
it, but it looked quite odd. Maybe it was computer-generated on
lower-capability equipment? Has someone out there who knows about
type seen this book and can comment on it?

I got the paperback (Tor) of Graham Masterton's DEATH TRANCE from
the library based on the review of it in the last OtherRealms. There
is a repeated typo on the very first page, the "quote-from-the-book
blurb" page or flyleaf (? -- is it a "flyleaf" if it isn't a blank
page?)  right inside the front cover. The word "mask" is spelled
"mast" twice, and as "mask" twice, alternating! (It is used four
times in the quote, and is the most important or key word in the
scene, because of what happens.) Considering there is so little text
on that page, and one of the typos is at the end of the first line
and jumps out at you when you read it ("As a last defiant gensture,
he lowered the mast over his head."), you really have to wonder
about this one...

Yours in nitpicking,
Will

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jan 87 0836-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:

        Administrivia - Announcement for BITNET Subscribers,
        Books - Some Reviews & Man - Machine Interfaces & Golems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 07:44:31 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Major announcement of importance to BITNET subscribers

   If you are a BITNET subscriber to the digest, please read this
message.
   Due to major changes in the link between INTERNET and BITNET, I
have been forced to change the way that BITNET users subscribe and
unsubscribe to the digest.  The new procedure is as follows:
   If you are currently a subscriber listed in my direct
distribution list, you will be automatically added to the BITNET
distribution.
   If you are receiving the digest from some redistribution point,
you should subscribe to the digest individually (see below).
   To subscribe to the digest on the bitnet side (if you have not
already done so) issue the command:

   TELL LISTSERVE at RUTVM1 SUBSCRIBE SFLOVERS My Full Name

To unsubscribe, use UNSUBSCRIBE.  Those that have been added from my
list do not have their names included in the list.  I would
appreciate it if you would issue the subscribe command and enter
your full name so that I will know who you are.
   As in the past, if you want to communicate with me personally,
you send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.  Problems and questions
should also go to this address.  If you want to contribute to the
digest, send mail to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS as before.
   If there are any questions, please feel free to ask.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 87 02:38:50 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Reviews of six recent collections

I suppose it goes without saying that I have a huge pile of unread
books on a table next to my bed.  Sometimes I feel like my reading
is a quadratic curve which is trying to catch up with the factorial
curve of my book purchases...  Every now and then I read a book
which is so good that I feel compelled to plug it in public.  This
is normally a fairly rare circumstance (do I hear distant sighs of
relief?), but occasionally I hit a streak of books which seem to
deserve this treatment.  Recently I appear to have picked up the
knack of buying excellent single-author story collections -- the
last seven in a row that I've read have been uniformly superb.  I've
already attempted to foist HOWARD WHO? by Howard Waldrop upon an
unsuspecting public, and now I propose to do the same for the
remaining six books.

MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE.  J G Ballard.  Triad/Granada (UK) 1985,
   c1982.  205 pages, paperback.
CLOSE ENCOUNTERS WITH THE DEITY.  Michael Bishop.  Peachtree Press
   1986, c1986.  307 pages, trade paperback.
BURNING CHROME.  William Gibson.  Arbor House 1986, c1986.  200
   pages, hardcover.
ONE HUMAN MINUTE.  Stanislaw Lem.  Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 1986,
   c1986.  102 pages, paperback.
THE PLANET ON THE TABLE.  Kim Stanley Robinson.  Tor 1986, c1986.
   241 pages, hardcover.
TALES OF THE QUINTANA ROO.  James Tiptree, Jr.  Arkham House 1986,
   c1986.  No page count, hardcover.

When I was in high school I discovered Ballard's early work and
loved some of it, loathed some of it and was baffled by the rest.
Eventually I set it aside and hoped that someday I would understand
it all.  When EMPIRE OF THE SUN came out and proved to be as
interesting as I'd heard it was, I began to read and re-read Ballard
and this time I became completely hooked.  The clue came when I read
his novel THE UNLIMITED DREAM COMPANY, a beautiful work that I
forcefully recommend to everyone who has the misunderstanding that
Ballard is always opaque or depressing...  The collection MYTHS OF
THE NEAR FUTURE provides a very good cross-section of Ballard's
work, encompassing several styles and moods.  The title story is
Ballard at his most essential, a delicate and moving revelation -- I
now consider it my all-time favorite Ballard story.  'News from the
Sun' is in the same uniquely Ballardian genre and is almost as good.
There is a 'condensed novel' story, a few nasty sf-psychological-
horror stories (the novels CRASH and HIGH-RISE fit in here), an
amusing bit of sf satire and a visit to Shanghai in 1945 (cf.
EMPIRE OF THE SUN); all of these are quite good.  Only one story
feels like a dud -- 'Theatre of War' is an attempt to portray a
future Vietnam-style war in the UK, using a collage of materials
from the actual Vietnam war; frankly I think the material is more
horrible on its own than in some hypothetical sf situation...
Unfortunately Triad Granada didn't see fit to print the original
publication information for the stories in this book, so I don't
know if they come from a cross-section of Ballard's career, as they
appear to.

Michael Bishop is still a startlingly original writer.  His latest
collection, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS WITH THE DEITY, contains some very
different stories which (sometimes quite subtly) all concern the
topic of religion.  I don't know of any other sf writer who could
produce a volume quite like this...  There are a couple of
outstanding stories in this book; the rest are merely very good.  In
the former category, 'Alien Graffiti' is a beautiful fable of man's
communication with God, while 'The Gospel According to Gamaliel
Crucis' is a funny account of the arrival of the Messiah in the form
of an intelligent mantis-like insect from an alien planet.  I'm
still an atheist and a materialist, but I really liked these stories
(and I think theists will be impressed, too).  I also liked 'A Short
History of the Bicycle: 401 BC to 2677 AD', about a man stranded on
a planet of intelligent bicycles (shades of 'Or All the Seas with
Oysters'!); 'A Gift from the GrayLanders', a haunting tale about a
little boy's fear of ugly monsters who come in the night and how
that fear is realized; 'Storming the Bijou, Mon Amour', in which a
man who rebels against the systematized torture of human beings who
are made to watch drive-in movies over and over again discovers how
things could be worse; and 'A Spy in the Domain of Arnheim', about a
character in a Magritte painting.  Hackers should note that Bishop
invents the concept of electronic enlightenment in 'The Bob Dylan
Tambourine Software & Satori Support Services Consortium, Ltd.', in
which you discover that your PC can be used to commune with God...
ENCOUNTERS has a couple stories which verge upon the cute or the
sentimental, but this didn't dim my enjoyment very much.

William Gibson is hot right now.  Normally that's a bit of a
turn-off for me -- when I read reams of hype about a new writer, it
tends to contaminate my appreciation of his work.  If I'd read Bruce
Sterling's introduction to BURNING CHROME before buying the book, I
might never have even considered the purchase...  Fortunately the
stories are very good (even if I still don't believe all the hype!).
Three classic 'cyberpunk' stories are in here: 'Johnny Mnemonic',
'New Rose Hotel' and 'Burning Chrome'.  I think these stories are a
cut above the imitations which have appeared since they came out;
the writing is bright and melodramatic but never seems to parody
itself (a constant danger when writing an action story).  I
particularly liked 'New Rose Hotel', a fast-moving adventure which
revolves around some novel technological advances and is
superficially about corporate espionage but more deeply about
loyalty.  There's also a prototype 'cyberpunk' story which I
possibly like even better than some of its successors,
'Fragments of a Hologram Rose', which has some fascinating images.
Possibly the best story in the book is 'Dogfight', a collaboration
with Michael Swanwick, which is about the next step after video
games; it makes a sharp point about human behavior that is somewhat
in contrast with its 'cyberpunk' setting.  I suppose that's one of
the reasons why I continue to read Gibson in spite of the hype --
Gibson's characters are never overwhelmed by the technology or the
action.  It would be terribly convenient for Gibson to rely on the
cardboard cut-outs which I see in 'hard-boiled' detective fiction or
cheap spy novels...  There are a couple of straight fantasies in
CHROME that I really enjoyed too.  'The Belonging Kind', a
collaboration with John Shirley, is about a man who wishes to be one
of those people who always know what to say and how to dress, who
look right in good restaurants or fancy parties (but there's more to
it than he imagines).  'The Gernsback Continuum' is a bit of fluff
about a man whose reality is being invaded by hokey
'technology' and architecture from the covers of '30s sf pulps; it
reminded me a little of Blaylock's 'Paper Dragons'...  This collection
may never sell as well as NEUROMANCER but it is every bit as worth
reading.

Some time ago, Stanislaw Lem wrote a amazingly inventive collection
called A PERFECT VACUUM, in which every piece was a review of some
nonexistent book.  VACUUM gets my unequivocal recommendation as a
book which is essential for any sf library (or any library at
all!)...  ONE HUMAN MINUTE is a collection of three more of these
'reviews'.  The title piece is about a book which is even more
comprehensive than such best-sellers as THE BOOK OF LISTS or THE
GUINNESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS: it describes what every member of
the human race is doing during the period of one minute.

   You learn how many people die per minute from police torture, and
   how many at the hands of those without government authorization;
   what the normal curve of tortures is over sixty seconds and their
   geographic distribution; what instruments are used in this unit
   of time, again with a breakdown into parts of the world and then
   by nation.  You learn that when you take your dog for a walk, or
   while you are looking for your slippers, talking to your wife,
   falling asleep, or reading the paper, a thousand other people are
   howling and twisting in agony every consecutive minute of every
   twenty-four hours, day and night, every week, month, and year.
   You will not hear their cries but you will know that it is
   continual, because the statistics prove it.

If you were to know what every human being was doing during any
given minute on this planet, what would happen to your opinion of
human beings?  The next piece, 'The Upside-Down Evolution', reviews
a military history of the 21st century and we discover that the next
trend in weapons development will abandon the 'gigantomania' of
current systems and will concentrate instead on microscopic
self-guiding weapons which spread like diseases.  What happens when
people finally become completely irrelevant to warfare?  The last
'review', 'The World As Cataclysm', attacks the view popular in sf
that the existence of life on Earth implies the existence of life on
other planets.  Lem maintains that we may be the only life-bearing
planet in the universe.  Reading this piece definitely shook up some
cherished assumptions of mine...  This is Lem at the top of his
form, and as such this work is in my opinion so far superior to what
normally passes as sf that I almost have to wonder how anyone could
treat 'normal' sf seriously.

After saying something as contentious as this, I suppose I shouldn't
qualify it by saying that there are good sf stories and there are
good stories that are sf, but that's how I feel.  Lem excels at the
former, while I think Kim Stanley Robinson is superb at the latter.
I think both kinds are worthy of attention.  In Robinson's best
stories, the sf is an integral part but it isn't the whole point --
instead, it's used creatively to write a tale about human beings
that wouldn't be as interesting without the fantastic element.
Robinson's collection THE PLANET ON THE TABLE contains some
excellent examples of this kind of story.  'The Disguise' is about
an actor in a new form of drama in which a persona is downloaded
into the player and the lines and actions arise 'naturally' from the
player's subconscious.  When the actor thinks he detects a murderer
among the other members of the troupe, is it true, or is it part of
the play?  'The Lucky Strike' is about a slightly different World
War II from our own, where a different crew must fly the atomic bomb
to Hiroshima.  When I read it, I was right there, looking through
the bombsight with the bombardier, and was forced to ask: Did it
really have to happen the way it happened?  This is one of the most
powerful sf stories I've read in ages...  'Black Air' is about a
slightly different Spanish Armada, in which a child shanghaied
aboard a fighting ship is visited by an angel during an attack.
It's really impossible to describe the impact of the story in a
simple precis -- you must read it to find out that it is violently
original and moving and beautifully written.  The other stories are
uniformly good too; if you read and liked any of the three stories
I've mentioned, you'll be more than pleased with the entire
collection.  My only complaint is that the book doesn't include the
long novella 'Green Mars', another excellent story which came out
last year.

I read all three of the stories in TALES OF THE QUINTANA ROO by
James Tiptree, Jr, when they appeared in magazines back in '81 and
'82.  So why did I buy the book?  Well, for one thing, the book is
another excellent example of publishing art from Arkham House, with
some striking illustrations by Glennray Tutor which enhance the
spooky mood of the stories.  And yes, I think the stories are good
enough on their own to justify the purchase of this volume.  I
certainly enjoyed re-reading them...  Each story is a tale within a
tale, a popular style of long ago which works wonderfully in
Tiptree/Sheldon's gentle hands.  All are set in the territory of the
Quintana Roo on the east side of the Yucatan peninsula, and all
capture a certain mystery which pervades the native culture and its
ancient artifacts.  'What Came Ashore at Lirios' is the tale of an
American man who seems to have wandered the coast of the Yucatan for
ages, who once had an incredible meeting on a beach which he may
never find again.  'The Boy Who Waterskied to Forever' is about a
young Mayan man who ambitiously decided to be the first to waterski
from Cozumel to the mainland, and didn't expect what he found when
he arrived there.  In 'Beyond the Dead Reef' we meet an eccentric
Briton who is emphatic that the narrator should not go diving in a
certain spot near Cozumel despite a guide's recommendations...
These stories are a bit formulaic and certainly have no major
technical innovations, but they have vivid writing, interesting
characters and just the right touch of the fantastic.  Not bad for
$11.95 in hardcover.

Cozumel is a nice place to be when the pogonip rolls over Salt Lake.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jan 87 20:29:32 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces.
To: OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU

From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>

>PS: I must mention _Marooned_in_Realtime_ the sequel to
>_The_Peace_War_ by Vernor Vinge, which inspired me to enter this
>submission.

  If you liked that, you will love _Tom_Paine_Maru_ by L. Neil
Smith, another story which includes a mind-computer interface.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 87 19:44:43 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: A book on the Golem

A while back I posted a survey of books, plays, etc. on the subject
of the legend of the Golem.  For those interested, I have found a
similar book on sale (inexpensively) from Barnes and Noble.  I
haven't read it yet, but for those interested it is THE GOLEM
REMEMBERED 1909-1980 by Arnold L. Goldsmith.  It is published by
Wayne State University Press and also is a survey of the subject,
somewhat more complete than mine.

Mark Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jan 87 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 11:06:52 EST
From: weltyc%cieunix@CSV.RPI.EDU (Christopher A. Welty)
To: DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek Movie Poll

   I liked STII the best.  I found it much more entertaining.  I
don't view Star Trek as a comedy, although little humorous lines can
add to a story.  STII had the most superior character development of
any movie or any episode (even Amok Time and Naked Time), and it
showed Kirk at his tactical best ("You are an EXCELLENT tactician,
Captain" said Khan to Kirk in Space Seed).  It blows the others
away...

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 87 14:09:54 PST
From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (David Platt)
To: saint@yaleads.bitnet
Subject: Added material in Star Trek movies

When I saw ST I on network TV several years ago, I noticed quite a
bit of material that had not been in the version shown in the
theatres.  Some of the material was fairly minor (e.g. Uhura
commenting to a crewmember that Kirk's having taken command of the
Enterprise "may have just doubled" the ship's chances for survival).
Other material was more significant; there was a substantial amount
of restored dialog between Spock, Kirk, and McCoy concerning Spock's
motives for his encounter with V'ger and impact that this encounter
had on him ("I wait for V'ger as I would wait for a brother... for
as V'ger is now, so I was when I boarded the Enterprise.").  I think
that the network-TV version may have shortened the tedious
Enterprise fly-by and the V'ger overflight, but I'm not sure about
that.

A friend of mine purchased ST I on laser-videodisk, and received the
TV version rather than the theatre version... it's about 10 minutes
longer, I think.  I imagine (but am not sure) that the videotape
version may also have the restored material.

The TV airing of ST II (which I feel was the best of the batch) also
contained some restored material, although not as much as ST I.  The
part I remember in particular is that the theater version had very
little mention of Scotty's nephew, and left viewers somewhat in the
dark as to why Scotty was so broken up by Peter's death.  The bits
involving young Peter were restored in the TV version, and I'd
imagine that they're probably also in the videotape version.

In both ST I and ST II, the restored material matched up almost
exactly with the novelizations, which were apparently written from
the screenplays before the final editing was performed.

The studio seems to be taking the point-of-view that viewers are
more likely to sit through a longer version at home (TV/video) than
would be the case if they were watching the same story in a theatre.
It's also possible that there's some pressure from the theatre
chains, to keep "popular" movies below a certain length or to
"tighten them up" in order to keep the audience's attention.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 06 Jan 1987 13:47 CST
From: <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek IV -- Whalesong

I just want to state that sound CANNOT travel through a vacuum.  It
is impossible.  Sound needs a medium of some sort to travel through,
water, or air.  So you must conclude that the Whalesong picked up by
the Bounty, i.e. the Bird of Prey that the "valiant" crew was in,
was not transmitted as sound.  Frankly, I don't care how it was
picked up.  But, for this to be discussed, the laws of science that
we now accept must, in some way must be accounted for.

Ed Lorden

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 08:57 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek IV
Cc: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

>Some ways the movie could have been made more interesting: Having a
>major character get killed off, so that some sacrifice was involved
>in saving the Earth (Chekov would be ideal.)

Good Grief!  Haven't we had ENOUGH of killing off in every movie?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 87 12:11 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: A note on naval ship naming conventions

There has been much discussion on the ship classes and names with
respect to Star Trek lately, and considerable confusion about naming
conventions.  As Star Trek vaguely tended to follow traditional
Naval customs, I thought I would toss in my two cents worth ...

Whenever a new class of ships is built, one of the earliest ships
built is designated the `Name Ship' of the class.  Thus, the Porter
class destroyers (1933 program) were named after the USS Porter,
When the Porter was lost in the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands in
October of 1942, the class was redesignated the Selfridge class,
after the USS Selfridge.  A new destroyer of the Improved Fletcher
Class (1942 program) was then named the USS Porter.  If the Porter
class had not been redesignated, much confusion would have been
created by the reuse of the name.

When ships are built, they are assigned numbers (sometimes called
pendent numbers).  Each type of ship has its own series of pendent
numbers (type being something like battleship, heavy cruiser, light
cruiser, destroyer, destroyer escort, etc).  These numbers are *not*
reused for later ships.  Thus, the pendent numbers for American
Destroyers towards the end of WWII were in the 900's.  Numbers for
American Battleships are in the 60's ...

I hope that this information is of some use -- of course, clearly
Star Trek did not adhere strictly to this usage, but tradition is
strong in Naval circles, and some of this will live on forever ...

Rich Welty
welty@ge-crd.arpa

P.S.  Sometime ago, I started doing some research on the ships that
have carried the name Enterprise in the U.S. Navy.  If anyone is
interested in seeing this stuff, send me mail.  If there is enough
interest, I can enter it and mail it out, or possible submit it to
SF-LOVERS if it is deemed of sufficient interest to the SF audience.

------------------------------

Date: 07 January 87 13:20 EST
From: FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: (copy) All things Vulcan

    This posting is a querry for all those Star Trek fans on the net
who, like myself, are just a bit tired of the ST IV rantings and
want to move on to other topics. Does anyone know a reason why all
Vulcan male names begin with an "S" and all female with a "T" ? For
those who haven't bothered to touch any of the paperbacks, consider
T'Pau and T'Pring versus Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS
continued in the flood of novels on the shelves). Also, has anyone
ever seen a book entitled _ENTERPRISE_? It was suposedly the "first"
television script that Gene R. concocted, but later abandoned. Any
info on either topic would be most welcome.
     The aspect that adds most to the aura of Star Trek is the
development of the Vulcan culture. Having aliens around is basic to
most SF but rarely do authors or screenwriters have the skill and
imagination to fully develop the alien mystique. Trekies got a great
episode in "AMOK TIME" because it was an imaginitive look at what
goes on behind Spok's veil of logic, and the interaction of his most
human friend James T. enhances the complimentary pair even more. The
Vulcan world is only given cameo appearances in the movie versions
of ST, but perhaps one of the script writers will make a better
attempt in ST V! Even better, how about a delve into the dark world
of the Klingons! Even the Romulans had their turn in "BALANCE OF
TERROR". Just food for thoughts fellow Trekkies...

Roger Jagoda
Chemical Engineering Dept.
Cornell University
FQOJ@CORNELLA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 87 14:37:24 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan

FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>  Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with an
>"S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered to
>touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus
>Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of
>novels on the shelves).

I suggest you take a look at THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, beginning at
page 274 for a series of memos between (make that among) Gene
Roddenberry, Bob Justman, Herb Solow, John DF Black,...

This is ( I think ) the origin of all Vulcan male names starting
with S.  I assume the T'XXX format for womens names was invented by
the late Ted Sturgeon when he wrote Amok Time.

>Also, has anyone ever seen a book entitled _ENTERPRISE_? It was
>suposedly the "first" television script that Gene R. concocted, but
>later abandoned. Any info on either topic would be most welcome.

_ENTERPRISE_ is a recent novel by Vonda McIntyre with her ideas on
the Big E's first trip with the current bridge crew.  It's a nice
book, although I don't agree with everything in it.  It's not based
on any "missing" Roddenberry script.

The Star Trek comic also did a first voyage, it's also worth
reading.

Finally Roger, there are those out there who take "Treekkie" as an
insult.  I don't care, but be careful when you use it.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jan 87 11:47:21 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: STTMP/Reverend Jim

Paramount HAS released the version of STTMP on videotape with the
missing footage. The box says SPECIAL EXTENDED VERSION, or something
like that. Has anybody noticed that none of the scenes on the cover
of the WOK tape was actually in the movie?  Also, at the BSTA
Platinum Anniversary con, Takei said that Lloyd had trouble figuring
out that he was supposed to speak into the communicator. He kept
flinging his arms apart and saying "Beam me up!"  I mean, can't you
just see Jim doing that??

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jan 87 13:11 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: anti-Star Trek?

This is in response to a message from Kathy Godfrey in (I think) #8:
To each his own.  Call me childish, unscientific, etc., but I like
Star Trek.  You must admit that a lot of it might have seemed
plausible in the sixties (e.g. "humano- centrism" {or whatever the
official term is for assuming that most lifeforms look/speak like
us}--also, remember that the Enterprise crew have "universal
translators" which will translate any known language to
"California-native accented English"; FTL/warp drive (explained
through "warp space", external to the real universe); time travel
(someone, I think, has already ripped on this subject); etc.).
Certainly it is not as "sophisticated" as most "diehard" SF readers
would like, in terms of logicality and scientific consistency, but
SF requires a certain amount of "suspension of disbelief" in any
case.  {Let me guess: you don't like fantasy books, do you?}

nj
borrowing c78kck@irishmvs.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 06:27:56 GMT
From: hadron!jsdy@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Joseph S. D. Yao)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV

mauney@ece-csc.UUCP (Jon Mauney) writes:
>bright@dataio.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:
>>Scotty asks the plastics man to figure out how thick the plastic
>>would have to be to withstand the pressure of 60,000(?) gallons of
>>water ...  man says 'that's easy, 6 inches'.
>
>but last week he made a 1-inch-thick panel for a 10,000 gallon
>tank, so he figures 6 inches must be good for 60,000 gallons.

The answer is evident.  One of two conditions holds.

Either Scott fortunately hit on exactly the person who had built the
transport tank for the whales to the North Pacific, so he knows the
answer right off,

Or the engineer is a Usenet member, since membership seems to confer
so many with the feeling that they can conjure instant answers to
anything.

Joe Yao
hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}
jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 87 12:39 ???
From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Star Trek Time Travel

> There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek:
> The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method.

There is a third method, although I don't remember exactly what they
called it or which episode it was in, although I THINK it might have
been where some virus or something got on board which was making
everyone go crazy. They were in a decaying orbit and someone had
shut off the engines.  Apparently, the engines need about 30 minutes
or so to start back up.  They had less time than that before they
burned up so Spock tried an unproven theory to cold start the
antimatter reactor, which might result in implosion.  After they
did, (and it worked of course) Sulu noticed the chronometer running
backwards.  Kirk logged it as a good way to get to other times...

Kurt Geisel
Carnegie Group Inc. AI Lab

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:56 CDT
From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Shakespeare in Star Trek

>I believe that Kirk was stationed on the planet in question very
>early in his career, not actually living there at the time.  You'll
>probably need to find an uncut version of the episode to check on
>this.

This is correct.  Why did the question arise??  (I'm new to the
list.)  Actually, this was a great episode, particularly for
Shakespeare fans.

Eleanor Evans

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:54 CDT
From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Star Trek

>I have spent the last month and a half watching people on SF-Lovers
>bicker over things that are fictional as though it were fact.  I go
>to movies to ENJOY myself.

For many people (myself included), Star Trek is a real world,
planned out in infinite detail, and frequently much better
understood than the one we find ourselves in now.  Star Trek is a
symbol of hope - hope for a better future, even for a future at all.
It reminds us sometimes that our little screw-ups now don't really
matter so much as we think they do when we're going through them,
and gives us something to work toward, to dream for.

I just recently graduated and took my first job - in a big city, far
away from home and friends.  Although I was looking forward to it,
the whole experience was still quite unsettling.  About two months
before I actually moved, Star Trek began to show up in my dreams - I
was living and working with the crew of the Enterprise.  Personally,
this was much better than dreaming about falling off of cliffs,
etc., which a lot of my friends said they were doing.

The Star Trek world was one I knew well - I knew how the people were
going to react, even what they would say.  It was somehow comforting
to picture myself in a world that different, and yet that easy to
deal with.  That feeling really helped me deal with the stress of
all the new experiences I was going through then.  This may sound a
little weird - has anyone else had this feeling?

Eleanor Evans

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:55 CDT
From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: ST time travel

>When the Bounty came back to the future from the 20th century, for
>a few minutes, they were there before they had left. This could
>lead to interesting occurences, if explored further...

As I recall, there was one Star Trek episode in which the Enterprise
ended up going back in time three days.  They were trying to escape
the gravitational pull of some planet (that, or the planet was about
to go boom, I forget which).  Eventually, Spock mixed matter and
antimatter, and they ended up going back in time.  Does anyone
recall this episode?

Eleanor Evans

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jan 87 0929-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:

               Books - Benford & Bester & Donaldson &
                       Friedberg & Hogan & Typos &
                       Multigeneration Ship & 
                       First D&D Story

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 18:00:41 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: HITLER VICTORIOUS ed. by Gregory Benford

                         HITLER VICTORIOUS
         edited by Gregory Benford and Martin H. Greenberg
                           Garland, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Someone who knew my predilections gave me this anthology for
Hanukkah.  Not one, but eleven "what if Germany had won the war?"
stories!  I immediately set aside the other book I was reading and
dove in.

     Benford begins by giving a good introduction to the alternate
history sub-genre of science fiction (or fantasy, if you prefer).
Spinrad's discussion of the fascination of the Nazis is worth
reading, though I quibble with his inclusion of his own THE IRON
DREAM as one of the three major "Nazi-victory" novels (the other two
he lists are Dick's THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE and Sarban's THE
SOUND OF HIS HORN).  I would claim that Deighton's SS-GB is at least
as widely known and Mackie's AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE is notable for
having been made into a three-part mini-series in Britain which
played on PBS here.  But the rest of his article is thought-
provoking and recommended.

     The stories themselves were published between 1957 and 1986,
the latest being three times as far removed from World War II as the
earliest.  This means that the earliest were written by people who
remembered first-hand how Nazism arose and spread, while the latest
have the benefit of historical perspective and continuing
revelations to build upon.

     The question one usually asks about alternate histories is "Is
it believable?"  While that's still a valid question, the very topic
of these stories reminds us that reality may not be believable.
When people first heard about the concentration camps, they refused
to believe the stories because, they said, no one could do such
things.  Even today, there are those who deny the Holocaust existed.
So when I say something in a story in this anthology is not
believable, in the back of my mind is the thought that, in spite of
that, it COULD happen.

     The first story, C. M. Kornbluth's "Two Dooms," is also one of
the oldest.  That it was a story of the Fifties is obvious, yet it
still carries a strong message.  (Readers should remember that most
of those working on the Manhattan Project expected the Bomb to be
used against the Germans rather than the Japanese.)

     Hilary Bailey's "The Fall of Frenchy Steiner" was a good
portrayal of England after defeat, but the story didn't convince me
and only the main character seemed fleshed out enough to be
three-dimensional.  The setting makes it worth reading, reminiscent
of the recent version of the film 1984 in its drabness and general
decay.

     "Through Road No Whither" by Greg Bear suffers from having its
ending telegraphed, but even without this problem would be a minor
piece.

     "Weihnachtsabend" by Keith Roberts is reminiscent of Sarban's
THE SOUND OF HIS HORN.  I personally found myself confused in spots
since Roberts has his characters, and indeed his narrator, lapse
into German quite often.  I don't understand German.  Again, I found
parts of this story unbelievable, but in this anthology, that
criticism can only be made with the side-note that much of history
was also unbelievable.

     David Brin's "Thor Meets Captain America" is (in spite of the
sound of its title) a serious story.  Much has been made of the
Nazis' interest in the occult (Spielberg, for example, has made
millions) and Brin looks at what would happen if the interest had
borne fruit.

     "Moon of Ice" by Brad Linaweaver tries to show that National
Socialism carried within it the seeds of its own defeat, and whether
this defeat came through Germany losing the war, or later, after
Germany won the war, it was inevitable.  This could be either a
trite or an interesting idea, and Linaweaver doesn't do all that
could be done to make it interesting.  The result is a conclusion
that seems shallow.

     Sheila Finch's "Reichs-Peace" is a tale of Romany psychic
powers.  It's also a tale of deception, and the deception is even
harder to believe than the psychic powers, which is a pity.  This
could have been a much better story had the deceptions been thought
out a little bit more.  Finch also wrote INFINITY'S WEB, a novel
dealing with alternate worlds.  This is better.

     In "Never Meet Again" by Algis Budrys, Professor Jochim Kempfer
is dissatisfied with his personal universe in a world of "Hitler
victorious."  But he discovers that a change of universe doesn't
solve all his problems-- merely changes them.  A well-done story
that makes a point worth noting, particularly to all those who say,
"If only I had done thus-or-so differently."  Not all change is for
the better.

     Just as "Through Road No Whither" is more a fantasy piece than
science fiction, Howard Goldsmith's "Do Ye Hear the Children
Weeping?" is more a horror story, and not a bad one.

     Tom Shippey's "Enemy Transmissions" shows us a Dreamer (the
occult Reich again?).  He dreams of things that were--like the
Unification War.  He also dreams of things that were not--like some
war or battle or something in the Falklands.  At least he thinks
that's what it is, but it makes no sense.  Why would anyone fight a
war in the Falklands?  (Good question?  Anyone want to volunteer an
answer?)

     "Valhalla" by Gregory Benford seems to be an attempt to leave
the reader with a satisfactory ending to this anthology.  The
philosophy behind it, and its attitude toward retribution (read,
"revenge"), however, strikes me as exactly what caused the problem
in the first place, with France, Britain, and the United States
determined to have their revenge on Germany and thereby laying the
groundwork for Hitler's rise to power.  Maybe the positive attitude
toward revenge that I see in the story wasn't Benford's intention,
but that's how I read it.

     Of course, no one seems to have written the story I want to
read: what if Nazism had never come to power, World War II had never
happened, and everything was much WORSE because of this.  (As I
mentioned above, everyone seems to assume that things would be
better.)  Jerry Yulsman's ELLEANDER MORNING hints at this, but I
think the reason no one has tried this is two- fold: no one wants to
be a position that seems to defend the Nazis, and no one wants to
try to imagine something WORSE than the Holocaust.  There are
limits, apparently, to what even the most down-beat of authors will
do.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 87 20:12:28 GMT
From: cmcl2!chenj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James M.C. Chen)
Subject: Alfred Bester

>       I need help locating a science fiction short story I read
> a long time ago.  I think it was part of an anthology, but I'm not
> positive.  I have no idea who wrote it, what the title was, or
> anything except the story itself.
>
>       I can't remember much of the story, but I do remember some
> of the dreams which were parodies on traditional science fiction
> stories.  In one, our hero is the last man on the Earth running
> around a post-nuclear war city looking for relief from an
> excruciating toothache.  He finds the last woman on the Earth.  He
> asks if she's a dentist.  She says no, she's something more
> important, she is the last woman and they are the last couple on
> Earth and therefore must procreate to repopulate the planet.  He
> asks to borrow her gun, tells her "I wish you were a dentist", and
> shoots himself.

   The general consensus on the identity of my story is that it was
written by Alfred Bester and called 5,271,009.  Everyone agreed it
was a number, but only two people agreed on the specific number.  I
haven't found the story yet so I'm not positive on the exact value,
but it must be close.

   My thanks to the answermen.  Now I have another query.  It should
probably go to rec.arts.books, but I'll ask here anyway.

   Who was the author for the stories of detective Solar Pons?

   My thanks in advance.

Jimmy Chen
chenj@cmcl2

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 87 20:01:43 GMT
From: astroatc!philm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Phil Mason)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes:
>Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen
>Donaldson.  I think I have the author right!  - anyway the one who
>wrote the Thomas Covenant books.  Since I enjoyed the TC books, I
>thought I'd read this one but I was surprised to find out it
>doesn't end - it says it's continued in "A Man Rides Through".
>Does anyone know if this second book is out?  I couldn't find it
>the bookstores I went to, and the book club doesn't list it.

I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes, there
were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the
climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there.
Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending appeal to
most everybody?

I don't know if I could stand another Donaldson series; especially
if it culminates 5 books later!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 22:59:07 GMT
From: chinet!rissa@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Bibliographic request

From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
>Please, can anyone give me a reference for "The Wayward Cravat"?
>Also, does anyone know of anything else Ms. Friedberg has written?

The only place I've seen "The Wayward Cravat" is in the anthology
"Tomorrows Children", edited by the good doctor Asimov back in 1966.
Published by Doubleday.

(Gaak ... 1966 ... 20 years ago ... I must be getting old).

I got it out and re-read it - it was a good story.

Garret
ihnp4!chinet!rissa

------------------------------

Date: 12 January 1987, 09:37:53 EST
From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan

I just finished this.  I know it may be old news (its copyright date
is 1979) but it upset me so much that I had to write about it.

James Hogan's novel The Two Faces of Tomorrow is 390 pages long.  By
page 16 he has revealed a plot twist which establishes the basic
premise for the rest of the book: half-smart computers can devise
novel ways to obey commands, but they may turn out to be flawed by
oversights.  Or, if you like, a little knowledge can be dangerous.
The problem is that this had become obvious by page 8, so I had to
spend 8 pages just waiting for him to drop the other shoe.

Worse yet, it was also clear that the entire premise of the novel
was that they had been able to build a world-wide computer system
which controlled transportation, communication, construction, etc.,
yet it wasn't smart enough to recognize humans and understand their
frailties.  Apparently, if you gave the system a command like
"remove this rock formation" and forgot to say "and avoid killing
any of the people near it", then the system just might decide to use
a bomb rather than a bulldozer.  Somehow these supposedly brilliant
designers hadn't even heard of Asimov's first law of robotics, or
its equivalent in that universe.  Nor, once they decided they needed
it, could they figure out how to build a system which obeyed it.

By page 108 Hogan has revealed the specific nature of the conflict
which is to arise from this premise: an intelligent computer system
is to be attacked to see if its responses are hostile and if men can
overcome it despite that hostility, and, if so, how.  Unfortunately,
the what (in general), the why, and the how (almost precisely), can
all be deduced when page 62 has been reached, so the remaining 328
pages have to stand on other merits than cleverness (let alone
intelligence) of plot.

That leaves characters, prose & conceptualizations as sources of
entertainment.  But the characters are straight from the cookie
cutter, the prose is flat, and the conceptualizations are either
mundane or half-witted.  Tie all of that up with a real "idiot plot"
and the result is the worst novel I have read in many years.

By way of example, consider the following.  In the lab they have the
prototype for the system.  It isn't very smart, but it's learning.
To help it along, and to understand its motives for certain acts,
they converse with it, either by terminal or voice.  Then they build
the big system and the trouble starts.  Not once, through the rest
of the story, does anyone converse with the system.  Near the end we
even get 2 of the original designers of the thing standing in front
of a terminal, wondering how to get its attention, how to
communicate with it.  They ended up waving their hands in front of a
TV camera and pointing to drawings, hoping that the system would
catch on!

There were other idiocies of a similar nature, but this is the one
that made me crazy.  And I think I've made my point, which is that
this is a bad novel, based on a half-witted premise, and with a plot
to match.

Please believe me when I tell you that it was only after finishing
the book, and long after these opinions had formed, that I read that
Hogan is an employee of DEC.  The opinions expressed here are purely
my own, and were developed independently of any consideration of the
relationship between my employer and his.

Richard

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 87 17:48:19 GMT
From: mcnc!jeff@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Copeland)
Subject: Re: Typos in SF Books

From: William Martin <control@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>The John Varley BLUE CHAMPAGNE book I posted a recommendation of a
>couple days ago, even though put out by a small press, was plagued
>with typos.  ...One aspect of that book I had meant to mention was
>that the typeface was wretched. I don't know enough about
>typography to say just what was wrong with it, or why I hated it,
>but it looked quite odd.

Well, I trotted 'round to the library to look at a copy.  At a guess
based on the typefaces and the fuzziness, it was "typeset" using the
IBM 240 dot-per-inch laserprinter.  I wouldn't have tried that
myself, and I'm surprised Dark Harvest did.  Not only were the typos
annoying (e.g. "powerfull" "prepaired"), but it looked like they
didn't even proof the galleys, leaving multiple copies of
paragraphs, and bad justification.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 09:52:37 pst
From: king@kestrel.ARPA (Dick King)
Subject: Multigeneration ship stories

I hereby nominate my candidate for the first multigeneration ship
story.

EXODUS, from the Bible.

It features

1> a trek through a surrounding hostile enough to kill people who
   leave the "ship".

2> multigeneration duration [nobody from the original Exodus
   survived]

3> they forgot their destiny at least once

4> the highest technology of the day was used

5> the crew was sufficiently large to prevent genetic drift.

I will concede the distinction that unlike typical multigeneration
ships, this "ship" could have split in two with both halves
surviving; it didn't happen, that possibility had significant impact
on the story line.

Comments?

dick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 09:55:16 pst
From: king@kestrel.ARPA (Dick King)
Subject: While I'm commenting on firsts...

I hereby nominate Wizard of Oz as the first Dungeons and Dragons, or
at least the most widely known early one.  It includes

1> characters with magical powers

2> problems whose solutions have a D&D flavor

3> Journeys, goals and artifacts with a D&D flavor.

Comments?

dick

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 87 0824-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bradley (4 msgs) & Brust (2 msgs) &
                    Chalker & Donaldson  & Gerrold &
                    MacLeod & Walker & Generation Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 11:21:15 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
To: jslove@mit-multics.arpa
Subject: Darkover "feminism"

   Bradley's attitude toward modern feminism varies widely through
her books; I'm told there was quite a fuss in feminist circles over
DARKOVER LANDFALL, especially the scene in which one of the ship's
officers is told -"No, you can't have an abortion; this is a viable
colony and we'll need all the kids we can get."- (note -""- and
\don't/ try to argue against this philosophy without original quote
and context).
   I don't think Peter Haldane was ever a 2.5-dimensional character,
and I certainly don't think he is singled out for militant feminist
abuse in THENDARA HOUSE. In THE SHATTERED CHAIN we see him isolated
from what Bradley chooses to show as an distinctly male-oriented
Terran culture/outpost at Thendara (I don't know whether she thought
that future Terrans, mimicking the contemporary US in its diplomatic
superficiality, would describe Darkover as a male-dominated world in
a way that would attract male-dominant types (in other books it's
said that very few people \ask/ to be posted to Darkover)); even in
isolation he acts swinishly (note the scene between him and his
ex-wife in the Ardais castle on midwinter night), so his behavior in
Thendara isn't implausible---especially considering the swinish
behavior of his bosses.
   I can't speak from direct experience about the plausibility of
the various sessions at the guildhouse, but I would expect some of
them to be less than pleasing to the genital warriors you describe;
Bradley specifically denies any implicit female \superiority/. In
THENDARA HOUSE she deals directly with what was only glanced at in
several other books: the attempt of a group of people (who happen to
be female) to break out of \\all// of the preconceptions of roles,
abilities, limitations, and societal oughts. I am not one of the
hypothetical ultra-feminist males who bewails his guilt over the
supposed universal conspiracy to suppress women; even so, I didn't
find TH unreasonably assaultive.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 15:54:01 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "SWORD OF ALDONES isn't so bad"

   One note: this is virtually the only Bradley book with any sort
of down ending. Bradley has had a real problem in the last 20 years
writing a story in which not everything comes out for the best for
the leading good guys. (The death of Jaelle in CITY OF SORCERY is
the only thing I can point to, and one can argue that that was set
up; in HERITAGE OF HASTUR, Lew's lover (Marjorie?)  \had/ to die
because with her alive SWORD OF ALDONES, to which HoH was a
deliberate prequel, would have collapsed). In the rewrite (SHARRA'S
EXILE) Bradley abandoned the basis of SoA (a Rilke (?) quote to the
affect that the stranger who comes home does not make himself at
home but makes home strange); the only good guy who's stuck at the
end is Regis, and he's resigned to merely being de-facto King
instead of traveling to other worlds.
   I don't have a special brief for dark tragedies, but Bradley's
endings seem to have been getting more and more painless---almost
analogous to the requirement that commercial STAR TREK novels, like
TV shows, not leave the characters altered in any way.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 17:10 EST
From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Darkover "feminism"
To: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)

I didn't say that MZB thought that females were superior.  I only
felt that she made males out to be the enemy and invented straw
characters for the sake of argument.  Do you remember "don't trust
anyone over 30"?

I also didn't claim that Peter Haldane was a saint.  His character
was clearly enough drawn that it was clear that the Terran woman had
reason for leaving him.  It was pointed out to me that the Darkovan
woman might well have grown to know him well enough to share the
Terran woman's view.  This would account for what I perceived as
implausibly changed perspective.  I would be willing to accept such
an explanation if I found any evidence for it in the story.  I
didn't.

I am not using names because I have forgotten them (thanks for
confirming Peter's).  I don't plan to defend my opinion to the point
of rereading Thendara House.  I did perceive a drastic break in
continuity between the stories.

Fiction describing -- in detail -- the changing perceptions of
lovers or spouses for each other can be very powerful.  That
particular transformation would might have been depressing to read,
if it were well portrayed.  I would be very impressed with such a
story.

Each of us has areas where we are unwilling to suspend disbelief.  I
was rather impressed with The Shattered Chain.  My credulity was
overstrained by the sequel.  Select your own size grain of thought
regarding what my free advice is worth.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 17:35 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: MZB & feminism

   Recent postings, stories heard from friends, and an interview* in
Starlog from its early years, not to mention the anti-male slant in
recent books, have made me wonder why I'm still reading the Darkover
books. Shoshanna Green's account of the "Free Amazon meeting"
tallies with an account of a ritual led by MZB wherein the horrors
of what has been dealt to women and the earth were dwelt on in
excruciating detail, without the leaven of "the brightness we're
aiming for". We have no future if we don't know our history, but the
Darkover stories recently just say "this is how the world should not
be".
   That's the only complaint I have about Ruth Barrett & Cyntia
Smith's song "Imagine the World"-- images are given as negative and
to be avoided, but that just reinforces the unwanted images. No
positive image is provided, just the exhortation to "Imagine the
world as you want it to be". If you take away something, you must
replace it, otherwise it's just like non-constructive criticism.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

*The interview I refer to was more of "Famous Authors' Opinions on
subject X". I don't remember the question very well, but it might
have been something having to do with women in the future and what
the current "enlightening movement" will have done for humans at
that time.  Her response was something close to "I don't know if
women deserve to be liberated. I see women in my daughter's
generation wearing long skirts, using lots of makeup and blow
driers. You'd think they'd learn".
   At the time I remember thinking sarcastically, my male roommates
use blowdriers and I don't, maybe if I did I'd start earning the
kind of money they were? When *I* wear long skirts, I can hitch them
up out of my way to run, and never wear hobble skirts, which is what
she was possibly thinking of when she made that statement.  I
certainly am not known for frequent use of makeup...I can't see that
finely in the morning.

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Teckla [Spoiler Warning: TECKLA and JHEREG]
Date: 10 Jan 87 04:34:36 GMT

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
>Teckla was different. We are treated to an excruciating view of the
>poor and opressed, a sudden total alteration of character in Cawti
>(who a few weeks ago in story time was relishing the chance to do
>an assasination to help Vlad out, and who now is a veritable angel
>of mercy spouting "power of the armed masses" rhetoric), a
>situation where Vlad tries lots of stuff with never better than
>extremely mixed results. Vlad ends up hating himself and half the
>other characters while accomplishing virtually nothing except
>setting himself up for MUCH more pain in a later book. Is this fun?

While the book would make sense later in the series, the part about
Cawti was what threw me.  Especially since I have just followed
reading TECKLA with re-reading JHEREG.  While I admit that JHEREG
had a set-up for Vlad to begin to doubt his own motives, bringing
Cawti into it was just plain wrong; in JHEREG, Cawti does "work",
but less than a week later she is suddenly a different personality
altogether.  This is consistency?

>Having made my tirade, an aside for those who enjoy speculating
>about our favorite assassin. Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I
>now begin to suspect?

I began to suspect that when Vlad said that Sethra had told him it
was important for him to name Spellbreaker, on top of its rather
interesting antics...

On the other hand: a Great Weapon should have acted like Pathfinder
did in JHEREG: it protected Aliera from a sorcerous attack in the
tavern, when she wasn't paying attention.  If Spellbreaker is a
Great Weapon, why didn't it do the same for Vlad a few seconds
later?  (On the other hand: a Great Weapon it may be, but Godslayer
it certainly isn't.  And Pathfinder was some- thing special, even
for a Great Weapon.)

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St.
#A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 01:07:25 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Teckla

Regardless of how good the rest of the book is or isn't, (I haven't
read it yet) I think that the Dragnet parody quote at the beginning
qualifies as the most annoying thing I've seen an author do in quite
some time.

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 05:17 EDT
From: KROVETZ%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Jack Chalker

Does anyone know his address?  I think it's somewhere in Maryland.

Thanks,
Bob

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 19:14:45 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Donaldson [SPOILER for Covenant]

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
>I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes, there
>were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the
>climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there.
>Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending appeal to
>most everybody?

I enjoyed the series immensely (if "enjoyed" applies to a story like
Thomas Covenant's).  Covenant's problem with the White Gold power is
much like Luke Skywalker's dilemma in using the offensive power of
the Force - the after-effects of invoking the power could likely be
far worse than the evil being fought with it.  We really discover
this in the third book and recognize that a confrontation is coming,
in the second trilogy in the series.  Throughout the first trilogy,
I was "telling" Covenant to use his power to save The Land; to
acknowledge the reality of The Land and his power therein.
Throughout the second trilogy, I was as nervous about his power as
he was.  Those effects on my emotions kept me inside the story, and
that's a major component of my enjoyment of any tale.

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
{whatever}!amdahl!krs Amdahl
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 03:33:21 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb)
Subject: Re: David Gerrold

myers@hobiecat.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>Does anybody know if there are any plans for mhorr of the Chtorr
>books? (apologies to Anne McCaffrey).
>
>I have the first two, and it's been TWO YEARS since _A Day for
>Damnation_ came out.
>
>I really enjoyed these a lot (and I liked the second one better),
>and have been anxiously awaiting the next book, but have never
>heard anything.

I'm also waiting anxiously, but it's gonna be a while...

Apparently, he switched publishers, and the new publisher wants to
print the whole series (including the first two books), so it's in
Gerrold's contract that he has to rewrite the first two books.
(They can't be reprinted verbatim for funny legal reasons.)

He's not very eager to do this.  Thus, his lack of alacrity.

BTW: Has anyone heard about _Janissaries_ III ?  Much as I like
Gerrold's Chtorr series, I like Janissaries better.  (If anyone out
there hasn't read the two books that are out, *do so*.  They are
*really* good.)  Perhaps someone on BIX could drop Jerry Pournelle
(jerryp) a hint that there are still people who read his *fiction*?

Colin Plumb
ccplumb@watnot.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 87 18:01:50 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED by C. MacLeod

        THE CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED by Charlotte MacLeod
                         Avon, 1986 (c1985)
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     From the cover, this sounded like a madcap mystery, possibly
with some horrific touches, as three horticulturists attempt to
control the giant hogweed that threatens Britain's hedgerows.
Before the end of the first chapter, however, it had metamorphosized
into a bizarre fantasy, complete with witches, druids, magic
potions, dragons, damsels in distress, and the whole shebang.  In
many ways reminiscent of A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S
COURT, this novel shows how resourceful modern men can do quite
nicely in the past--though this past is more like a fantasy-land
that a real, historical past.  The mystery, or at least the hogweed,
gets side- tracked for most of the novel, though it crops up every
now and again (as it were).  Instead, somewhere around page 6, our
characters walk into a Welsh bar and find themselves transported to
the Wales of folklore.  If this sounds like ALICE IN WONDERLAND or
THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE to you, don't worry--it sounds
that way to the characters themselves.  It may not be a classic like
those novels, but it is thoroughly enjoyable.  MacLeod has a dry wit
and does understated humor very well (example: "The meeting was
being held in one such place, among the lush green hills where
England blends so delightfully into Wales and the sheep all begin
bleating in Cymric as soon as you cross the border.")  There seems
to be a sub-genre starting up of fantasy spoofs: WIZARDS AND
WARRIORS on television, Marvin Kaye's THE MAGIC UMBRELLA, Chelsea
Quinn Yarbro's A BAROQUE FABLE, and now this in books.  Let's hope
subsequent ones are as good as this one.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

From: warlord@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 12:49:42 EST
Subject: A question on a forgotten series

     Does anyone know whatever happened to a paperback series put
out by Daw in the mid-late 70s called Magira, by Hugh Walker?  I
have the first three books and am very interested in acquiring the
rest of the series, if it exists.  The works were supposedly
translated from German.  The author claimed that the world of Magira
was based on the first role-playing campaign ever developed
(supposedly by some wargaming group in Europe in the 60s), if memory
serves me right.

Edison Wong
warlord@teela.mit.edu
warlord@mit-athena.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 18:21:03 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: So someone finally noticed? (Generation Ships)

>I seem to recall reading somewhere that UNIVERSE by Heinlein was
>not the first such story.  Someone else did one in the thirties or
>forties, but his was so much better that it is his that everyone is
>getting the idea from.  Sort of like Asimov and robot stories.

I think Murray Leinster did one of the first generation ship
stories.  I can't recall the title, but I believe it was collected
in Asimov's _Before the Golden Age_ anthology.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 87 0840-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:

           Books - Benford & Hogan (3 msgs) & Solar Pons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 21:04:44 GMT
From: kontron!cramer@rutgers.edu (Clayton Cramer)
Subject: Re: HITLER VICTORIOUS ed. by Gregory Benford

>      The question one usually asks about alternate histories is
> "Is it believable?"  While that's still a valid question, the very
> topic of these stories reminds us that reality may not be
> believable.  When people first heard about the concentration
> camps, they refused to believe the stories because, they said, no
> one could do such things.

Let me mention another reason that when reports of the concentration
camps first came out no one believed them: British propagandists
during World War I had inflamed American public opinion by reports
of German soldiers cutting off the hands of Belgian children.

After World War I, there didn't seem to be either handless children
or handless corpses in Belgium.  My father's first reaction
(apparently a pretty common one) to the World War II rumors was:
more British propaganda.

Clayton E. Cramer

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 18:50:01 GMT
From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILERS!)

Yes, you're entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to do
my best to shoot holes in them!  BTW, please remember to post
spoiler warnings in future messages.  Some people might not want to
read your message when you give way the entire plot.

RPK@IBM.COM writes:
>James Hogan's novel The Two Faces of Tomorrow is 390 pages long.
>By page 16 he has revealed a plot twist which establishes the basic
>premise for the rest of the book: half-smart computers can devise
>novel ways to obey commands, but they may turn out to be flawed by
>oversights.

True.

>The problem is that this had become obvious by page 8, so I had to
>spend 8 pages just waiting for him to drop the other shoe.

It's been a short while since I read the book, but I don't remember
it becoming obvious at that point, or even by page 16 where the
computer does use missles to accomplish the removal of a small hill.

>Worse yet, it was also clear that the entire premise of the novel
>was that they had been able to build a world-wide computer system
>which controlled transportation, communication, construction, etc.,
>yet it wasn't smart enough to recognize humans and understand their
>frailties.  Apparently, if you gave the system a command like
>"remove this rock formation" and forgot to say "and avoid killing
>any of the people near it", then the system just might decide to
>use a bomb rather than a bulldozer.  Somehow these supposedly
>brilliant designers hadn't even heard of Asimov's first law of
>robotics, or its equivalent in that universe.  Nor, once they
>decided they needed it, could they figure out how to build a system
>which obeyed it.

Not quite accurate.  They had managed to build mildly intelligent
networks, one for each function, each capable of doing its job.  The
problem came when these networks started interacting in fashions
that were either unexpected, or supposedly impossible.  Such as the
incident on the moon, where the construction scheduling system
gained access to the defense system (supposedly impossible) and used
its capabilities to do the job.

>By page 108 Hogan has revealed the specific nature of the conflict
>which is to arise from this premise: an intelligent computer system
>is to be attacked to see if its responses are hostile and if men
>can overcome it despite that hostility, and, if so, how.

True.

>Unfortunately, the what (in general), the why, and the how (almost
>precisely), can all be deduced when page 62 has been reached, so
>the remaining 328 pages have to stand on other merits than
>cleverness (let alone intelligence) of plot.

Bull.  Some part of what, and why, may have been deduced by most
people, but the how is not going to be deduced.  Except by hindsight
of overly critical readers.

>That leaves characters, prose & conceptualizations as sources of
>entertainment.  But the characters are straight from the cookie
>cutter, the prose is flat, and the conceptualizations are either
>mundane or half-witted.  Tie all of that up with a real "idiot
>plot" and the result is the worst novel I have read in many years.

Perhaps the problem is with a reader who has apparently forgotten
how to enjoy reading.  I feel that I am an above average reader, I
happened to enjoy this book very much.  I did not find the 'prose'
flat.  And if the characters are stock, well then, most characters
in writing today are 'stock'.  (Not an argument FOR mundaneness, but
an argument against flaming for writing about good but ordinary
characters.)  And if you wanted to, you could argue that ALL
characters in ALL books written today, or in the last 20 years, are
basically "cookie cutter" characters.  They may be dressed up a bit,
but the prototypes have been out for over a hundred years.

I don't quite understand what you mean by the 'conceptualizations'
being either "mundane or half-witted."  How about an example?

>By way of example, consider the following.  In the lab they have
>the prototype for the system.  It isn't very smart, but it's
>learning.  To help it along, and to understand its motives for
>certain acts, they converse with it, either by terminal or voice.
>Then they build the big system and the trouble starts.  Not once,
>through the rest of the story, does anyone converse with the
>system.

Quite true.  And admitedly rather odd.  However, don't I remember
that it cut itself off from them since they were the source of the
attacks on itself?

>Near the end we even get 2 of the original designers of the thing
>standing in front of a terminal, wondering how to get its
>attention, how to communicate with it.  They ended up waving their
>hands in front of a TV camera and pointing to drawings, hoping that
>the system would catch on!

Have you considered several posibilities?

1) Voice equipment was unavailable at that location.
2) The computer was ignoring them.
3) The computer was not directly controling/conversing with the
   computer that ordinarily controled the station rotation?

4) Voice recognition/generation is not generaly used, perhaps due to
   the same problems we have with it now, that it has to be tuned to
   respond to a particular voice.

As I remember, it was trying to control it all on it's own, they had
to tell it about the equations, so they put them into the terminal,
then they have to get the computer to read the terminal.  Which it
is currently ignoring since the terminal is a link to the creatures
that are trying to destroy it!  This is a combination of #2 and #3.
Both of which can be supported from the book.

>There were other idiocies of a similar nature, but this is the one
>that made me crazy.  And I think I've made my point, which is that
>this is a bad novel, based on a half-witted premise, and with a
>plot to match.

I think the "idiocies" are more on the part of the overly critical
reader, who also fails to stop and think *why* something that
appears idiotic is done.  And if this drives the overly critical
reader crazy, then maybe he'd better stop reading before he really
goes around-the-bend.  I mean, there's a lot of books out there with
worse problems than this one has.

The premise is not "half-witted", it's merely an updated
"Frankenstein".

Consider: They needed a system that was far more intelligent than
what they had now.  They needed it to put some sanity into the
solutions that the present system was using (see the part on the
moon).  However, they knew that they could shutdown the existing
system, it would be a disaster to do so, but it could be done.  And
they DID NOT KNOW if they would be able to shut down a system that
was SUPPOSED to be smarter! After all, it's supposed to be smarter,
so isn't it likely that it would be better able to keep itself
running?  And if it did develop intelligence, how could they be sure
that it would be friendly?  If it turned out to be unfriendly, then
they had to be able to shut it off!

So, you rig a test in which this possibly dangerous entity is
isolated from that which you wish to protect.  (i.e. You do it
off-planet.) And you arrange for graduated levels of 'shutoff'
attempts, finally employing the most drastic measure, blow up the
whole thing.  (Which they were prepared to do, even if the damage to
the rotation structure didn't shake it apart first.)

Not at all "half-witted", more likely prudent!

Enjoy!

Edwin Wiles
seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 03:03:14 GMT
From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan

is a Great Novel, but Richard King's complaints about the AI in the
novel are unjustified.

"Richard P. King" <RPK@IBM.COM> writes:
>Worse yet, it was also clear that the entire premise of the novel
>was that they had been able to build a world-wide computer system
>which controlled transportation, communication, construction, etc.,
>yet it wasn't smart enough to recognize humans and understand their
>frailties.  Apparently, if you gave the system a command like
>"remove this rock formation" and forgot to say "and avoid killing
>any of the people near it", then the system just might decide to
>use a bomb rather than a bulldozer.  Somehow these supposedly
>brilliant designers hadn't even heard of Asimov's first law of
>robotics, or its equivalent in that universe.  Nor, once they
>decided they needed it, could they figure out how to build a system
>which obeyed it.

Some of the greatest philosophers in the world have debated the
question of "What is Man?"  I have yet to see a complete answer.
Asimov's first law is easy to state, but five billion people and
four thousand years of civilization have yet to completely implement
it.  It is unreasonable to expect AI programmers to do better.

>By way of example, consider the following.  In the lab they have
>the prototype for the system.  It isn't very smart, but it's
>learning.  To help it along, and to understand its motives for
>certain acts, they converse with it, either by terminal or voice.
>Then they build the big system and the trouble starts.  Not once,
>through the rest of the story, does anyone converse with the
>system.  Near the end we even get 2 of the original designers of
>the thing standing in front of a terminal, wondering how to get its
>attention, how to communicate with it.  They ended up waving their
>hands in front of a TV camera and pointing to drawings, hoping that
>the system would catch on!

Consider that one of the first things the system did was stop
running user-scheduled tasks.  Don't you think it's possible that
one of those tasks was the voice-recognizer?  Besides, even if the
voice recognizer had been left running, why would the "intelligent"
level of the system bother to interpret the voice input?  Why would
it even recognize the input *as* input?  There would still be the
problem of attracting its attention, and getting it to realize that
you are not part of it.

Cardboard characters are a standard charge aimed at Hogan, and I
agree.  But his technology is uncommonly realistic.  For this book,
he got help and advice from Marvin Minsky, and produced what is in
my opinion the most accurate novel yet about intelligent computers.

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 01:12:50 GMT
From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber)
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan

RPK@IBM.COM writes:
[ lots of reasons why he didn't like the book, including the fact
that Hogan didn't follow Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics ]

I, on the other hand, thoroughly enjoyed this book. I read it when
it first came out in 1979, and have reread it a number of times
since then.

This was the first book I had read which treated artificial
intelligence in a manner which is consistent with what's actually
happening in the field.  Most robot/computer stories beg the
question of the "first" artificially intelligent robot/computer (who
invented the 'positronic brain'? how?) or else just say "magic"
(Heinlein in "Moon is a Harsh Mistress").

Hogan's book, on the other hand says if there is to be an
artificially intelligent machine, it's because some human wrote some
software to run on some hardware that some other human designed. And
somebody's going to have to debug the damn thing. This is a story
about the debuging of the software.

The story basiclly starts with an 'expert system' (my words)
endangering some people on the moon, when the system is removing a
hill (by laser cannon).  ( Richard didn't like this part because the
designers had never heard of the "Three Laws of Robotics".) But the
hill was removed, in a way that the designers hadn't predicted, so
they decided to call the bug a feature, and exploit it.

The main hero, a computer scientist working in artificial
intelligence, (who would _you_ call, a psychologist? ) and suggests
that instead of removing all the expert systems then in use, to be
'safe',that a truly artificially intelligent machine be created
which would know or could be taught not to endanger humans.

The method they use is to load some learning software into a machine
that can control, through various types of robots, its environment,
and then iritate it. In order to be able to 'pull the plug' the
actual experiment is put on a space station, and our hero is sent
there with other computer scientists as well as a military
contingent.

The rest of the book deals with the experiment. If you're into
computers I recommend it. James P. Hogan, the author, used to be a
consultant for DEC, so his books tend to treat computers and most
technical/scientific subjects "realistically". It is similar to the
movie "War Games" for this reason: realistic treatment of computers
in a good story. Most of the computer freaks that I know also
enjoyed it. I didn't talk to anyone who wasn't a computer freak
about it, so I don't know whether they would get the same thing out
it that I did.

Also, if you do read this book, and like it, Hogan some other books
out in which not too far into the future computers are well done.
All in all I like Hogan and always look for his books when I go into
a book store.

For those of you who think I don't like Asimov or Heinlein, I didn't
mean to give that impression. I grew up on the Robot Stories. I got
into this field (computers) because of those stories. And RAH's
books (prior to "Friday") are why I got into reading.

Lastly, I am not a literary critic, a writer of speculative fiction,
or a member of HASA (whatever that means). I'm a computer programmer
who likes to read good science fiction/fantasy.

Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va.
seismo!rlgvax!jesse

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 17:18:18 GMT
From: wrd@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester

> Who was the author for the stories of detective Solar Pons?

There were two authors of the Solar Pons series.  Originally they
were written by August Derleth, upon his death, Basil Copper took
over as the author.

Bill Dippert

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 87 0852-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:

         Films - Quest for Love (2 msgs) & Short Circuit &
                 Dark Star & Dune & Movie Title Request,
         Television - Robotech (3 msgs) & Blake's Seven

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 87 15:23:16 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Finding the Title

store2@ihuxi.UUCP (Wilcox) writes:
> Speaking of forgotten titles, I have been trying to find the title
> to a movie I saw years ago.  I remember little about the movie
> except it was a parallel universe type of movie in which the hero
> was trying to get back to the woman he loved.

This doesn't fit the facts you give, but the film that comes to mind
is QUEST FOR LOVE (1971).  It is the only science fiction film I
know that really handles parallel universes.  The film is a rather
free adaptation of John Wyndham's story "Random Quest."  It starred
Tom Bell and Joan Collins.  It is recommended, by the way.

> Does anyone know if there is a definitive listing of SF/fantasy
> movies with a short synopsis that I might find in the library or
> somewhere?

The problem is that they do not stay definitive for long.  They get
out of date.  At one point I could have told you Walt Lee's
REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS, but it is now about 12 years
old.  A little less complete, but updated much more recently is
Donald Willis's HORROR AND SCIENCE FICTION FILMS, the original and
two books that are basically patches to update it are available from
Scarecrow Press.  If you are willing to settle for just science
fiction films, Phil Hardy's THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION
is quite good and either B.Dalton or Walden Books in some places
were selling it for $15 on their sale table a few months ago.  Hardy
also has one for the Western.  If you can do without synopsis, the
best and most current source is Lentz's SCIENCE FICTION, HORROR &
FANTASY FILM AND TELEVISION CREDITS.  This is a very useful source
from McFarland & Company.  One volume maps actors to dramatic
presentations, the other goes in the reverse direction.  It is a
professional source and costs a professional's price, about $70.
Also worthy of mention is Michael Weldon's THE PSYCHOTRONIC
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FILM.  Despite the lurid cover and title, it is a
good source.  Also the biggest bargain for such a reference is one
that covers all film, not just fantasy.  Leonard Maltin's TV MOVIES
is a real bargain of a reference, over 1000 very packed pages fo
$4.95.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 87 14:50:52 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Finding the Title

store2@ihuxi.UUCP (Wilcox) writes:
>Speaking of forgotten titles, I have been trying to find the title
>to a movie I saw years ago.  I remember little about the movie
>except it was a parallel universe type of movie in which the hero
>was trying to get back to the woman he loved.  I saw it on the late
>movies at the time, so I'm sure it is at least 20 years old and I
>think it was in black and white.  I also think it was set in
>England, so it might have been a British movie.
>
>Does anyone know if there is a definitive listing of SF/fantasy
>movies with a short synopsis that I might find in the library or
>somewhere?

Sounds like "Quest for Love", a reasonably good adaptation of the
story "Random Quest" by John Wyndham (collected in "Consider Her
Ways and Others").  The original story, though, has a much more
plausible alternative history.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  6 Jan 1987 12:53:10-PST
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Movie recommendation:  SHORT CIRCUIT

After a recent tour through the local video rental outlet, we
watched a film we had never seen, called "Short Circuit."  The movie
has been returned, so I can't give a release date for this film, but
it had some good science fiction and it was pretty funny.  I liked
this film, starring Ally Sheedy (sp?), also famous from The
Breakfast Club, and that young actor from Cocoon (the name escapes
me).  They are both fine actors, but they were upstaged by the main
character, a robot.

The robot is No. 5 in a set of prototypes designed for the Army (of
course), intended to be used in combat.  Poor No. 5 gets zapped by
electricity, which seemed to blow its circuits.  But when no one is
looking, No. 5 gets away from the Army installation (called NOVA,
clearly intended to represent NORAD).  No. 5 is malfunctioning, and
he knows it.  He wanders around, looking for "input."  Then he meets
Stephanie (Ally Sheedy), an animal lover who is totally opposed to
the work being done at NOVA. At first, Steph thinks she's discovered
an alien.  She got good lines like: "Is that really you?  Or are you
inside some kind of space suit, like just a brain in a bottle or
something?"  When she discovers No. 5 belongs to NOVA, she calls
them up and says, "I'd like to speak to one of your head
warmongers."

But No. 5 has some of the best comedic lines and situations in the
movie.  He is really cute, for a robot, and he can express a lot
with his mechanical face and his flexible DECtalk-like voice.  He
develops a passion for TV, and picks up all the nuances and straight
lines from old movies and television.  So while NOVA is trying to
chase him down and eliminate him, he provides the comic relief and,
at the same time, proves his intelligence and his sensitivity.
(Sensitivity, in a robot?  Sorry, you'll just have to see the movie.
I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone.)

No. 5 has one conflict after another in this movie.  First, against
the other prototype robots, then against his own engineer.  And,
finally, his ultimate conflict against the soldiers from NOVA.  The
story is well written, with plenty of character development and
humor.  The special effects are really good -- robots, lasers, chase
scenes.  The story has some intensity, and you really start to care
about the characters.  I think it would be a fine movie for
youngsters, because it's not too strong and there are no really
violent scenes or sexual situations.  But it's a good film for VCR
buffs because it's full of one-liners that come so close together,
you can be laughing over a joke and miss the next one.  We rewound
at several places to catch the funny dialog.

I recommend this movie for its science fiction and its humor.

------------------------------

Date: 07-Jan-1987 0701
From: kevin%bizet.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re:  Dark Star

> Can anyone tell me who did the voice of the computer in Dark Star?
> I have a hunch, but I'm not quite sure.

According to the credits on the album:  ``Cookie'' Knapp.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 02:35:28 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Colin Plumb)
Subject: Re: DUNE (movie)

>> I heard a rumour somewhere that Dune the film, although cut down
>> for general release was also available to cons and the like
>> complete with the full plot done almost page by page. Is this
>> true and has anybody seen the film if it does exist?
>
>The only version of the film currently available is the one that
>was released to the theaters. I've have heard from various sources
>that all of the footage shot will be re-edited into a 5-hour (net,
>which would most likely be 6 hours with commercials) mini-series
>for television. When and if this evers happens is anyone's guess.

  One of the employees of Bakka (Toronto's oldest (and greatest) SF
bookstore) told me the full, uncut version of DUNE was seen in
Europe.  (I think France was mentioned.)  Can someone
verify/disprove this?  It apparently went over a good deal better,
since sone plot was actually left in.  (You *can't* cut special
effects - that would be wasting money! :-)

Colin Plumb
ccplumb@watnot.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 87 08:35:07 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Does anyone remember this OLD movie?

I've been trying to track down the title to a movie I saw a LONG
time ago, and the net usually seems to come up with an answer, so...

Somewhere in the 1958-61 time frame, I saw a B/W, grade B (or C)
movie that had to do with the arrival of an alien ship or probe.
Since the military didn't understand what it was, where it came
from, or what it wanted, they naturally took a shot at it with a
guided missile (as such things were called then).

They managed to damage the ship's control systems in such a way that
it ended up locked in Earth orbit.  For some reason (radiation, heat
due to intense "friction", ...), the ship was "burning" a swath
something like 10 miles wide as it continued to orbit ... destroying
everything in it's track (cities, people, what have you).

Anyway there was only have a little time left to save Earth from
becoming a tosted cinder.  The Hero (an isolated physisist in New
Mexico, or some such), has to repair the nuclear tipped Nike Ajax
they decide to shoot.  He has only seconds before launch, and ends
up sticking his hand into the warhead to fix the malfunction (maybe
sabatoge).

He saves the world, naturally, but doesn't get the girl ... I
believe he dies (handling plutonium with your bare hands is not
conducive to long term relationships)!

That's about all I can recall, some of which may be wrong in detail.
The gist of the above is pretty close, though.  Does anybody know
the name of this movie, or anything more about it?

The reason I'm curious is that at one time or another I've seen just
about every SF movie that I saw as a kid show up on late night TV.
Except for this one.  It wasn't a particularly *good* movie, but it
was a lot better than the 15th showing of "Attack of the Mushroom
People", etc.  And yes, I would like to see it again, if only for
nostalgic reasons.

Thanks alot!

kim
UUCP:{sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim
DDD: 408-746-8462
USPS:Amdahl Corp.  M/S 249,  1250 E. Arques Av,  Sunnyvale, CA 94086

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 21:51:09 GMT
From: aplvax!mae@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: SF on television (Robotech and new anime)

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>robert@weitek.UUCP (Karen L. Black) writes:
>>Robotech may have no reincarnations, but it sure has one whale of
>>a lot of flashbacks.  It seems like every sixth episode is
>>composed of previous footage!
> . . .Dana's Story is at least 1/2 flashbacks.

Harmony Gold used flashbacks to fill in the places where they
couldn't use parts of the original episodes.  "Dana's Story" is
nearly all flashbacks because they had to change so much to link
Southern Cross with Macross.  Southern Cross doesn't even take place
on earth, so the whole original first episode, showing the colony
planet with two moons, had to be omitted and flashbacks put in to
turn Jeanne Francaix into "Dana Sterling".  Likewise, a few Macross
episodes toward the end had Southern Cross scenes added to start the
connection with the "Robotech Masters".

On a similar note - is anybody seeing Macron 1?  I saw a few
episodes at an anime club New Year's Eve party, it's a combination
of Go Shogun and Srungle, of all things.  I didn't catch who made it
but the voices are awful and they are using Top-40 hits as
background music.  There is nothing more out-of-character then
having Bundole, who in Go Shogun went into battle listening to tapes
of classical music and occasionally got so carried away looking at
the beauty of the explosions that he forgot to fight, listening to
music from Beverly Hills Cop. The tapes were off a LA station, I
don't know where else the show might be running.

After getting disgusted with Macron 1 (it didn't take long), we
watched some new shows from Japan, Saint Saya and Oh, Family!.
Saint Saya has an unfortunately stupid plot, at least for the first
four episodes we saw, because the concept is intreging.  Each
character is matched with a constellation and their fighting powers
are associated with the mythical being portrayed.  So far Pegasus,
Cygnus and Dragon seem to be the main characters, but the alien
menace in the opening credits hasn't shown up yet by episode 4 and
the plot has been like a bloody futuristic boxing show with the
characters fighting each other.  I hope it gets better, the concept
is neat.  Oh, Family! is an animated sit-com about a "typical"
California family.  I don't now how funny the Japanese viewers think
it is, but their idea of a "typical" California family is pretty
funny in itself.  The mother is out of a '50s/'60s tv family, the
teenage daughter spends her time roller skateing, playing tennis and
surfing, and the teenage son is gay.  Odd show.  We also watched the
beautiful, but depressing, made-for-video movie Windaria.  Anyone
else out there in net-land seeing anything new and interesting?

Mary Anne Espenshade
{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae
mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu
mae@aplvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 04:47:10 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck)
Subject: Southern Cross:  The REAL story

A little while ago, I read that the Southern Cross segment of the
Series Robotech actually took place on a colony world.  Now
obviously Southern Cross was the most hacked apart segment of
Robotech in order to make it fit in.  Would I would like to know is
the actual plot of the show.  If anyone could mail or post it, I
would be most grateful.

Also, when is Megazone 23 (Robotech: The MOvie) coming out??  It's
been a long wait since last Easter.  Any news on the Sentinals???
(Plot, characters, etc???)

Thanks,
Stephen Pearl
(201)932-3465
LPO 12749
CN 5064
New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 13:15 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..

Robotech is actually composed of 3 originally unrelated shows, those
being Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada.  Except for some minor
fine tuning to make them all fit together, the American version is
surprisingly faithful to the source material.  No major violence has
been cut, except perhaps some graphic bloodshed, of which there was
little to begin with.  They even attempted in some cases to have the
American names sound similar to theJapanese ones!  For example, Misa
Hayasu became Lisa Hayes.

Of interest to Robotech fans: There is a sequel out now called
Robotech II, the Sentinels.  It was SPECIALLY COMMISSIONED from the
Japanese Tatsunoko Studios for American release!  I don't know what
its current status is, but I suspect that it may have been shelved
as a result of the less than spectacular reactions to...Robotech The
Movie!  which was ANOTHER unrelated FEATURE FILM that was tied into
the Robotech Saga.

For more information than you could possibly want on Robotech, I
highly recommend 'Robotech Art I' from Donning/Starblaze.

In my next missive I'll include some more information on other
Japanimation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 87 08:52 CDT
From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Blake's Seven

>don't slag off Blake's Seven: I went to school with Terry Nation's
>son, Darryl Smith, (the family name is Smith not Nation fact fans),
>for fourteen years and they live in the next village to me so watch
>out.

I watched Blake's Seven avidly (if in some amount of confusion)
while I was studying in Glasgow.  I have been looking for books from
the show, or tapes of it, or ANYTHING - mostly so I can tell my
friends here about it and not have them look at me like I was losing
my mind.  Can anyone give me any pointers?

Eleanor Evans

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 87 0841-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Donaldson (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 01:11:25 GMT
From: jgath%mycreche@Sun.COM (Jim Gath)
Subject: Re: Donaldson [SPOILER for Covenant]

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
>I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes, there
>were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the
>climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there.
>Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending appeal to
>most everybody?

First, let me say that the Thomas Covenant books are some of my
favorites. After reading the first trilogy and upon hearing that a
second was in the works, I anxiously awaited the second set. Since I
first bought them, I have read them three times. As to the final
climax being disappointing, perhaps you could be more specific?
Until then, here are my opinions on the subject.

Take the books as two separate trilogies, the way they were intended
to be taken. The first trilogy does admirably at providing a
satisfying resolution to the stories. Covenant finally comes to
terms with himself and uses his power to become the hero that
everyone (except Covenant himself) knew he could be.

As to the second trilogy, I think it was vitally important for
Donaldson to let Linden Avery become the heroine. By doing so he
provided the new material that made the books interesting. Somehow
the idea of Covenant overcoming himself and again defeating Foul
doesn't sound as exciting a second time. Donaldson needed a new
hero(ine) to provide a source of new material. Hence, Avery became
his main subject. Also, I felt it justified that Covenant had to
sacrifice himself to atone for his failures in the past.  Let's face
it, his own impotence caused the original Staff of Law to be
destroyed as well as the subsequent breaking of the 'Law of Death'.
In ending the trilogy the way he did, Donaldson repaired the damage
done earlier, shifted the stories further away from Covenant
(possibilities still exist...), provided another chance for 'The
Land' and its people, and set up the possibility for another
trilogy. For example, Covenant and Avery may have conceived a child
which may someday again save 'The Land'.

In summary, I found both climaxes to be well done and well thought
out.  After all, you can never truly defeat evil. The best that they
could do was to weaken it.

As an aside, I am trying to complete a set of both trilogies in
hard-cover. I am lacking _Lord_Foul's_Bane_ and _The_Illearth_War_.
Does anyone know where I can get them?

Jim Gath
jgath@sun.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 14:23:11 GMT
From: osu-cgrg!spencer@rutgers.edu (Steve Spencer)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes:
> Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen
> Donaldson.  I think I have the author right!  - anyway the one "A
> Man Rides Through".  Does anyone know if this second book is out?

No, not yet.  "Mirror of Her Dreams" just came out in the fall so
the second one shouldn't be out until summer 1987 I would guess.
Yes, Marguerite, he is the one who wrote the Covenant trilogies
(sexology?)  and a collection of shorts, called "Daughter of
Regals."  If you haven't read that yet, do so.  It contains, among
other shorts, a long chapter which was cut out of "The Illearth War"
and which describes the Bloodguard.

Stephen Spencer, Graduate Student
Advanced Computing Center for Arts and Design (ACCAD)
The Ohio State University
1501 Neil Avenue, Columbus OH 43210
{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!cbatt!osu-eddie!osu-cgrg!spencer        (uucp)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 03:16:09 GMT
From: jgath%mycreche@Sun.COM (Jim Gath)
Subject: Re: Donaldson (_Mirror_Of_Her_Dreams_)

spencer@osu-cgrg.UUCP (Steve Spencer) writes:
>alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes:
>> Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen
>> Donaldson.  I think I have the author right!  - anyway the one "A
>> Man Rides Through".  Does anyone know if this second book is out?
>
>No, not yet.  "Mirror of Her Dreams" just came out in the fall so
>the second one shouldn't be out until summer 1987 I would guess.

The physical book _Mirror_of_Her_Dreams_ is separated into two
virtual books. I believe the end of the book says "the story will be
completed in ...". In other words, this is a trilogy and you have
the first two books already. Thank goodness there won't be three
600+ page books.

Anyone else out there read it yet? What did you think?

Jim Gath
jgath@sun.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 21:12:20 GMT
From: khudson@hawk (Urlord)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
>I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes, there
>were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the
>climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there.
>Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending appeal to
>most everybody?

Just to let you know, the first three books do come to a climax of
their own.  This climax is just as important as the climax at the
end of the third book of the second chronicles.  (Well, at least as
much as can be allowed by the recent discussion of literary merit
B^). As you might be able to tell, I liked the two trilogies.  They
were a little tough to get through, but I think that it was worth
the effort.

>I don't know if I could stand another Donaldson series; especially
>if it culminates 5 books later!

From what I hear it is supposed to be a series of three.  I believe
that I read this in Xignals (sp?) which is the newsletter of
Otherworlds Club of Waldenbooks.

Kevin Hudson
UUCP: !wanginst!ulowell!khudson@hawk

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 23:05:05 GMT
From: fortune!stirling@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Donaldson

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
>I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes, there
>were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the
>climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there.
>Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending appeal to
>most everybody?

I agree. The climax was anti-! Also I thought he took a lot of ideas
from Lord of the Rings, with close approximations to the names.  Eg,
Ranyhyn and Rohann (idea = amazing horses), the sentient forest, the
journey under a mountain, even Sauron and Lord Foul. I liked The
Wounded Land the Best. I think he could have done the whole thing in
half the space.  It was still pretty good though. Not on a level
with TLOTR of course; one reading was enough for TCOTC.

patrick
{ihnp4,hplabs,amdcad,ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 13:34:40 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Donaldson and _Mirror_

As an ardent loather of the TC books, let say that I was pleasantly
suprised by _The Mirror of Her Dreams_.  It is not so grossly
overwritten as TC (although it ain't exactly NYT English either) and
there seems to be a deep and subtle point to the book.  It is not an
easy read, though, and my exhaustion at reaching the end was
magnified somewhat by the realization that there is going to be at
least as much more to go; there's just too much complication to be
resolved.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 22:05:07 GMT
From: elrond!adb@rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
> I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes,
> there were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found
> the climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get
> there.  Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending
> appeal to most everybody?

I have a hard timing deciding just where I would place the series
with respect to the other series I have read. But I do believe that
it's ending was quite appropriate, when one considers that Donaldson
had to end it somehow, and as I see it there were 3 ways to do so:

1. Have Lord Foul win, that's no fun.
2. Have TC win, that's kind of against the constant statement: "You
   can't beat dispair".
3. Have TC sort-a-win, as in "The Power that Preserves". Which is
   what he decided on.  It would have been awful hard for TC to have
   survived the happenings on both sides.  (BIG question: why did
   the time go so slowly back here? One night != MANY weeks w/ the
   Giants @ sea! I know there was some correlation with the time in
   the Land and back here, but it seemed to me that there was too
   much time spent over in the Land. Perhaps the things Foul had
   done to the Land warped time as well as the Land?)

I thought the books were very interesting and showed quite an
imagination.  (I especially liked two things: the 'hero' wasn't
alway's heroic, and some of the differences he put in the 'aliens' -
namely the Elohim, the Giants and some of the Land people)

My biggest problem was having to go to the dictionary every 3rd
word!  (Flame on you Liberal Arts Majors!)

Alan D. Brunelle
uucp:    ...decvax!elrond!adb
phone:   (603) 885-8145
us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD
         (PTP2-2D01)
         Hudson NH    03051-0908

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 20:23:13 GMT
From: k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: Re: Donaldson & the Covenant Series

First, let me say that I thoroughly enjoyed both trilogies, for the
simple reason that the characters involved were very, very real -
sometimes confused, unsure, stupid, wrong - in short, *not* the
perfect heros/heroines that seem to pervade SF in general.  The
books were imaginative, yes, but what hooked me was the fact that
not only can Donaldson write well, but he uses that talent to show
us some very *real* people.

Now, Patrick Stirling writes:
>[] The climax was anti-! Also I thought he took a lot of ideas from
>Lord of the Rings, with close approximations to the names.
>[examples]

Whoa!  And you could say that Tolkien took a lot of ideas from
mythology.  We all draw on our cultural heritage when we write.

I think you missed the most wonderful part of the story (in my
opinion): the structure of "good" versus "bad", with a lot of room
in the story for the human characters to be less-than-perfect,
psychologically as well as physically.  Tolkien's TLotR doesn't have
that (cf. net postings about 4 months ago, I think).  Yes, you can
look at the "things" in the story and draw comparisons.  I think a
more productive reading would concentrate on the psychological
landscape.

Kay
k@mit-eddie.UUCP
kay@MIT-XX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 17:55:00 GMT
From: hogge@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Donaldson

alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes:
> Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen
> Donaldson.  I think I have the author right!  - anyway the one "A
> Man Rides Through".  Does anyone know if this second book is out?

Could someone write up a review of this book?

Thanks,
John

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 00:46:48 GMT
From: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
> I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes,
> there were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found
> the climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get
> there.  Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending
> appeal to most everybody?

I heartily agree.  It irks me to have to plow through over 1000
pages of an author showing off his vocabulary and ability to
construct awkward sentences to reach a contrived ending.  I though
he could have wrapped up the entire second chronicles in one book,
and left out _The One Tree_ almost entirely.  Granted, we saw more
of "the land" and got to know the people, but it seemed like a big
waste of time, and I felt like I was working to get through the
books.  I don't read to work, I read for enjoyment.

I'm sure that the series appealed to some readers, but objective
assessment of literature is a topic I don't want to get into (it's
already being discussed hotly and heavily in this group)

Steve Chapin
ARPA:  sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu
UUCP:  ...!purdue!sjc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 14:36:51 GMT
From: elrond!adb@rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

stirling@fortune.UUCP writes:
> I thought he took a lot of ideas from Lord of the Rings, with
> close approximations to the names.  Eg, Ranyhyn and Rohann (idea =
> amazing horses), the sentient forest, the journey under a
> mountain, even Sauron and Lord Foul. I liked The Wounded Land the
> Best. I think he could have done the whole thing in half the
> space.  It was still pretty good though. Not on a level with TLOTR
> of course; one reading was enough for TCOTC.

Having read alot of Tolkien (LoTR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and some of
the Christopher T. books) I believe that it would be hard to read
*any* Fantasy book that did not have some comparisons with J. R. R's
works, for two reasons: 1. His works encompassed so many aspects of
fantasy lore, and 2. I would bet that just about *everybody* has
read LoTR, and as I remember hearing before, there is nothing new
under the sun.

Not to defend Donaldson too much, but it would seem to me that some
of the above points could be true - but some seem awfully shallow to
me:

  Sauron & Lord Foul? MAYBE Melkor/Morgoth & Lord Foul but not Sauron.

  I didn't realize that the forest in TC book were any more sentient
  then, for example the other plants, rocks and other matter -
  everything exuded HEALTH, if you refer to those beings that lived
  in the great forests with all that power (sorry I can't remember
  their names - one was the 'other' guy from 'our' world, the blind
  guy) - well they are not equivalent to the Ent's in my mind.

  The Journey under the mountain - this is a classical mythological
  adventure.  I believe Tolkien himself said he 'borrowed' that
  idea. Anyway one has to adventure somewhere, and it seems to me
  that TC traveled in all sorts of places (including: OVER
  mountains, plains, 'cites', oceans, mystical islands, swamps,
  icelands & etc.)

I hope this didn't seem too much like a FLAME, just expressing my
viewpoint...

I really don't have a favorite - I thought they were all about
equally good, although I wish he had stuck to the pattern of the
first 3, TC enter's The Land, something happens at the end of the
book, TC leaves The Land till the next book.

Alan D. Brunelle
uucp:    ...decvax!elrond!adb
phone:   (603) 885-8145
us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD
         (PTP2-2D01)
         Hudson NH    03051-0908

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 23:41:49 GMT
From: faustus@ucbcad.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

I thought that Donaldson did a very good job of coming up with
original ideas for his world.  I've seen far too many fantasy books
that were written like D&D adventures, with Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits,
etc.  (Granted, it's hard to say what these books would have been
like if the LoTR hadn't been written, if they had been written at
all -- so much of what Tolkien added to what he took from already
existing folklore has become ingrained in our ideas of fantasy.)
Donaldson came up with some fascinating races -- the Ur-Viles, the
giants (at least D&D doesn't have a Stone & Sea Giant category), and
many others whose names I can't recall (it's been a while).

Wayne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 87 0903-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 02:30:06 GMT
From: voder!kevin@rutgers.edu (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades

The April '87 issue (#37) of DC's Star Trek comic book is the first
issue since the STIV movie and back in the letters page there is an
interesting reply to a letter which has to do with the time-line of
the four movies.  The following is a slightly edited version of it:

The U.S.S. Enterprise (if the original still existed) would be about
40 years old.  It was first commanded by Capt. Robert April, then by
Capt. Christopher Pike, and then by a 29-year-old Capt. James
Tiberius Kirk.  The ship has had at least two five-year missions.
The first mission was the 79 live-action episodes that we have seen
on TV plus the 22 animated episodes.  The majority of ST novels fit
into this time-frame as well.

There is then a two-and-a-half-year gap between the first five-year
mission and STAR TREK: THE MOVIE.  Then there is another five-year
mission plus some unrevealed matters that make up the 10 years
between the first movie and the second, STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF
KAHN.

STII, STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, and STAR TREK IV: THE
VOYAGE HOME all happen in a concentrated period of time, something
close to a year. This makes the Enterprise about twice as old as
I've heard anywhere else.

DC is also publishing a WHO'S WHO IN STAR TREK.  This is a
two-volume comic which looks at key individuals, events and places
in the Star Trek universe including characters created for the comic
book and the animated TV series.  I haven't had time to read both
volumes but they seem to have done an excellent job (for example:
did you know that Areel Shaw, the prosecuting atorney in the episode
"Court-Martial", and the one who recommended to Kirk that he hire
Samual T. Cogley, was born in Kansas City, Missouri?  Oh.)

By the way, the last page of volume two has a list of the command
grades and the corresponding insignia.  They are:
   Ensign
   Ensign First Class
   Lt. Junior Grade
   Lieutenant
   Lieutenant Commander
   Commander
   Captain
   Fleet Captain
   Commodore
   Rear Admiral
   Vice-Admiral
   Admiral

Which would mean that Kirk was busted five ranks for his
indiscretions, still getting off rather lightly I think.

Kevin Thompson
{ucbvax,pyramid,nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 03:24:25 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan

FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>  Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with an
>"S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered to
>touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus
>Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of
>novels on the shelves).

If Saavik is not a Vulcan name, then what kind of name is it?

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 05:58:27 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #15
From: "Mary_Jo_DiBella.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

Regarding STIV (which I loved!!)--

Did anyone besides me notice that DeForrest Kelley (McCoy) looks
distinctly unwell lately?  He seemed terribly thin and pale in STIV.
I realize he's not a young man, and probably hasn't had the
thousands of facelifts that keep Shatner looking young, but I was a
bit worried about him.  Does anyone have any info?  Is he ill?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 10:14 EST
From: Brian K. Ogilvie <ogilvie@DIAMOND.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #15

From: <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
>I just want to state that sound CANNOT travel through a vacuum.  It
>is impossible.  Sound needs a medium of some sort to travel
>through, water, or air.  So you must conclude that the Whalesong
>picked up by the Bounty, i.e. the Bird of Prey that the "valiant"
>crew was in, was not transmitted as sound.  Frankly, I don't care
>how it was picked up.  But, for this to be discussed, the laws of
>science that we now accept must, in some way must be accounted for.

I assumed that what they picked up was the recorded whalesong being
played for tours of the institute that we heard later.  I find it
very believable that they would have a level of technology
sufficient to pick out minute electromagnetic pulses from the tape
recorder and speaker.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 07:57 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: All things Vulcan
Cc: FQOJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

>Also, has anyone ever seen a book entitled _ENTERPRISE_? It was
>suposedly the "first" television script that Gene R. concocted, but
>later abandoned

If you mean Enterprise:The First Voyage, Gene R had nothing
whatsoever to do with it.  The whole thing comes from McIntyre's
feverish imagination.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1987 08:24 EST
From: Andrew T. Robinson  <ANDY%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Warp Engine Implosion

The name of the episode, if I am thinking of the right one, was "The
Naked Time"--the one with the blood that crawls out of ice- cover
furniture to attack unsuspecting space travellers.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 21:09:08 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

Edward J. Lorden said:
>I have spent the last month and a half watching people on SF-Lovers
>bicker over things that are fictional as though it were fact.  I go
>to movies to ENJOY myself.

Then <732@rutgers.RUTGERS.EDU>
NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes:
>For many people (myself included), Star Trek is a real world,
>planned out in infinite detail, and frequently much better
>understood than the one we find ourselves in now.  Star Trek is a
>symbol of hope - hope for a better future, even for a future at
>all.  It reminds us sometimes that our little screw-ups now don't
>really matter so much as we think they do when we're going through
>them, and gives us something to work toward, to dream for.

I agree that ST is many flavors of goodness, sweetness, and light.
I don't agree that it is well-planned.

Sadly, the design of ST is much like a large software project that
grew from a one-shot programme that somebody wrote.  It might have
had a design once, but it has outgrown it.

Like the Klingons in the first movie.  Did the TV Klingons feature
spinal columns that wrapped around their skulls?  Nope.  Somebody in
the special effects department made them more interesting.  Several
years and many ST novels later, somebody wrote about a Klingon plan
to re-write history (via time travel) to put the empire in a better
position.  Mention was made about a previous time-diddling
experiment that changed Klingon anatomy.  I read that to mean bent
their spines.

Then Larry Niven wrote one of the ST cartoons.  He included stasis
boxes, slavers, and Kzinn.  I liked the story, but Niven's universe
doesn't quite mesh with ST.

How about the sex life of Vulcans?  The TV series left me with the
impression that there was little or none except during the right
season.  Subsequent books enhanced the impression.  Then Kathleen
Sky published "Vulcan!", and things were spelled out in embarrasing
detail.  Subsequent novels denied it.

More attentive fans can probably point to better examples.  There
are times when the whole thing just doesn't hang together that well.
I love it anyway.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 21:14:45 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan

>>  Does anyone know a reason why all Vulcan male names begin with
>>an "S" and all female with a "T" ? For those who haven't bothered
>>to touch any of the paperbacks, consider T'Pau and T'Pring versus
>>Spock, Sarek, and Ston (but the trend IS continued in the flood of
>>novels on the shelves).
>
>If Saavik is not a Vulcan name, then what kind of name is it?

Perhaps Romulan?  I am told that the novel version of the movie that
introduced Saavik gave considerable detail about her background.
This material was not present in the movie.

Saavik lived on a Vulcan colony planet that was taken over by the
Romulans.

[disclaimer: I have not seen this book.  I simply present what I
remember hearing from somebody who said that they did.  Whew!]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 18:30:18 GMT
From: sam@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Shelli Meyers)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades

kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) writes:

>   Ensign
>   Ensign First Class
>   Lt. Junior Grade
>   Lieutenant
>   Lieutenant Commander
>   Commander
>   Captain
>   Fleet Captain
>   Commodore
>   Rear Admiral
>   Vice-Admiral
>   Admiral
>
>Which would mean that Kirk was busted five ranks for his
>indiscretions, still getting off rather lightly I think.

Not necessarily.  I assume that he was only a rear admiral, since it
would have been very unlikely for him to promote from captain to
full admiral in the given time frame.  In the military, different
grades with similar names are all referred to alike.  You don't say,
"Hello, Major General Doe," or "Hello, 2nd Lieutenant Smith".  All
generals are referred to as "General", all lieutenants are referred
to as "Lieutenant", and consequentially, all admirals are referred to
as "Admiral."

Shelli Meyers,
Boston University

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 15:11:31 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald(Sarek)
Subject: STTWOK

Chris Welty claims that WRATH OF KHAN shows Kirk at his technical
best. What are you talking about?? Remember these lines?

"They are unwilling to respond, or they are unable to respond."
"If we go by the book, like Lieutenant Saavik,...."
"That's all we could get done in two hours."
"But there is the Mutara Nebula."
"His pattern indicates 2-dimensional thinking."

These were all Spock's lines! Kirk is the one who disregarded
Saavik's advice on the approach of the Reliant, the one who nearly
got killed by Terrell, the one who complains about only getting
partial main power when Spock had predicted only auxilary power in
two hours. Face it, Kirk is through! Give Spock the Enterprise and
retire Kirk...maybe he can go back to his cabin on Centaurus.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 22:28:59 GMT
From: wdl1!jrb@rutgers.edu (John R Blaker)
Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan

But Saavik was raised by Romulans.  Different naming conventions.

John R Blaker
UUCP:   ...!sun!wdl1!jrb (jrb@wdl1.uucp)
ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1.ARPA
        blaker@FORD-WDL2.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 87 13:47:48 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Star Trek time travel

The third method of time travel mentioned by Kurt Geisel and Eleanor
Evans occurred in the episode "The Naked Time".  Indeed, a virus
transmitted through sweat is brought onboard and it effects people
much like alcohol does by reducing inhibitions.  Sulu became
sword-wielding D'Artagnion (sp?), Nurse Chapel told Spock how much
she really loved him, Spock cried, and Lieutenant Riley sang Irish
songs and turned the engines off.  This episode is the source of
Scotty's famous line, "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain.
I gotta have therty minutes."  This is one of my favorite episodes,
along with "Mirror, Mirror", and "The Trouble with Tribbles".

Brett
ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 87 18:06 EST
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Added material in Star Trek movies
To: David Platt <dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa>, sfl-lovers@rutgers.edu

I don't think that the material is edited out of the theatrical
version because they think moviegoers won't sit through the longer
version.  I believe that happens is that they edit material back in
to entice more people to watch it on TV.  There are viewers who
might not bother watching a movie they saw in the theatre and on
cable when it finally comes to network TV.  However, if they hear
that there will be new material, they will tune in.

I don't think this is the case for Star Trek movies, but another
reason scenes might be added into the TV version of a movie is to
replace scenes cut to conform to network standards.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 87 02:02:39 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@rutgers.edu (Milamber)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades

sam@bu-cs.UUCP (Shelli Meyers) writes:
>kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) writes:
>>   Ensign First Class

I don't recall seeing this rank in any of the Star Trek technical
manuals at any of the conventions I've been to.

>>   Commodore
>>   Rear Admiral
>>   Vice-Admiral
>>   Admiral
>>
>>Which would mean that Kirk was busted five ranks for his
>>indiscretions, still getting off rather lightly I think.
>
>Not necessarily.  I assume that he was only a rear admiral, since
>it would have been very unlikely for him to promote from captain to
>full admiral in the given time frame.

Yes, Kirk was a full Admiral.  Note that his rank insignia was a
circle with 4 triangles (points, whatever-you-want-to-call-them)
coming out of the center.  Note also that Commander, Star Fleet had
one with 5 of them.  In all of the ST technical manuals I've leafed
through, I've seen that Rear-Admiral is the circle with 2 triangles,
Vice-Admiral is the circle with 3 triangles.  For the rank of
Commodore I've seen a contradiction.  I seem to remember in one
book, it was the circle with 1 triangle, and in another, it was
similar to the Captain insignia (from the movies) with 2 additionial
triangles coming off of the sides, thereby making it look something
like this:
       ___
       \ /
       / \
      /   \
   |\ |---| /|
   | >|---|< |
   |/ |---| \|
      \   /
       \ /
       /_\

In the first book, where the Commodore insignia was the circle and
one triangle, this was the insignia for Fleet Captain.  In the book
with this as Commodore, there was no such rank as Fleet Captain at
the time the movies took place, but there was one before it.  Any
ideas why?

Joe Ogulin
UUCP:  {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_ajpo
ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix@hopkins-eecs-bravo.ARPA
BITNET: ins_ajpo@jhunix.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 87 20:13:57 GMT
From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brent L. Woods)
Subject: Re: (copy) All things Vulcan

dennisg@fritz.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) writes:
>Saavik lived on a Vulcan colony planet that was taken over by the
>Romulans.
>[disclaimer: I have not seen this book.  I simply present what I
>remember hearing from somebody who said that they did.  Whew!]

   I suggest you read the book.  It's quite good.  Anyway, it was a
*Romulan* colony planet that they *abandoned*.  The Vulcans sent a
rescue mission there to investigate.  The mission ended up helping
the "undesirables" (old, crippled, half-breeds, etc.) that the
Romulans left behind when they evacuated the planet (Hellguard).
Spock saw some potential in Saavik, and sponsored her through
primary education and into Starfleet Academy.

Brent Woods
USENET:   {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h!ahh
ARPANET:  woodsb@el.ecn.purdue.edu
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM
PHONE:  (317) 861-4844
USNAIL:   Brent Woods
          R.R. 1  Box #S.R. 67
          New Palestine, IN  46163

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 87 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:

                Television - Japanimation (6 msgs) &
                             HitchHikers (3 msgs) & 
                             Starman & Blake's Seven

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 13:27 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: Japanimation News.

For all you fans of Starblazers, there is going to be a comic book
from Comico this spring called, 'Starblazers'.  The interesting
thing about this one is that it is going to be featuring original
material, rather than adaptations of any of the existing stories.
The writer is Phil Foglio (yes WRITER), and the artist is Doug Rice,
of Dynamo Joe fame.  The story takes place right after the second
American TV series, before any pf the Japanese movies/tv series that
are unavailable as yet, in America (more on that later).  Apparently
it involves some of the dregs of the Comet Empire that weren't
destroyed at the end of the second series trying to cause general
havoc.  The artwork looks okay, though uninspired.

In other Starblazers news, the much heralded THIRD SERIES is finally
available in some cities!  (Not, alas, Boston or Amherst..*sigh*).
The good news is that the story has been left relatively untouched,
even to the point of including graphic violence and a rather complex
plot involving strange alien gods.  The bad news, for fans of the
original voice actors in the American version, is that the voice
cast is completely different.  For those of us who have waited for
years for some new Starblazers, it is a welcome addition to the
canon.

In other Japanimation News, someone mentioned Thunderbirds earlier,
well as a totaly obscure bit of trivia, the producer of Galaxy
Rangers (also earlier mentioned) is the same as the producer of the
animated Thunderbirds 2086.  I told you it was obscure.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 16:15:05 GMT
From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..



From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
>Of interest to Robotech fans: There is a sequel out now called
>Robotech II, the Sentinels.  It was SPECIALLY COMMISIONED from the
>Japanese Tatsunoko Studios for American release!  I don't know what
>its current status is, but I suspect that it may have been shelved
>as a result of the less than spectacular reactions to...Robotech
>The Movie!  which was ANOTHER unrelated FEATURE FILM that was tied
>into the Robotech Saga.

     Less than spectacular reactions to the Robotech Movie? Where
did you hear this? It did quite well in the test release done in
Dallas. In fact, it did far better than expected for an animated
film. However, the distributor decided to shelve the movie since
they felt that the market would be glutted due to the release of the
Transformers movie and because they also felt that giant robot toys
were on their way out reducing their potential audience.  Don't you
just love these people's logic? By the way, the Robotech Movie is
approximately 1/3 Super Dimension Fortress Macross, 1/3 Megazone 23,
and 1/3 new animation.
     Robotech II: The Setinals consists of new animation covering
the time periods between the segments in order to create a better
background for the series. For example, we will see Rick and Lisa
taking the SDF-3 into space and learn exactly what Colonel Wolf did
that made him such a hero in the eyes of Scott. However, it too has
currently been shelved for a number of reasons.  First of all, a lot
of stations are "boycotting" Harmony Gold due to their distribution
of "Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years." It seems
they are none too happy to have been sold a show in which one of the
main heroic figures suffers from a major facial disfigurement.
Secondly, a lot of stations have hopped onto the "giant robot toys
are on the way out" bandwagon and don't want to pick up that kind of
a show. Finally, and most importantly, other companies are making it
far too lucrative for stations to run their shows. Let's face it,
any station that runs the Transformers and G.I. Joe, worthless dreck
that they are, can look forward to getting a lot of business from
Hasbro (or whomever) and Marvel Comics. This, coupled with the
attitude that if a show is animated it's only for little children
and imbeciles, is what is responsible for most animation on
television and in the theaters being half hour (or however long)
commercials for some toy or another. If you don't like this trend,
like me, I suggest you write your local stations asking that they
revive Robotech and any other animation that you've seen on and like
and get your friends to write as well.
     One last note, if they ever manage to air Robotech II we can
look for Robotech III as well. Robotech III will take place after
Genesis Climber Mospeada and cover Scott's search for the SDF-3
though he won't get very far before he realizes he needs a bigger
ship than his Alpha/Beta and turns back for Earth.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 01:12:36 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..

From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
> Robotech is actually composed of 3 originally unrelated shows,
> those being Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada.  Except for some
> minor fine tuning to make them all fit together, the American
> version is surprisingly faithful to the source material.  No major
> violence has been cut, except perhaps some graphic bloodshed, of
> which there was little to begin with.  They even attempted in some
> cases to have the American names sound similar to theJapanese
> ones!  For example, Misa Hayasu became Lisa Hayes.

The plots and characters of the original series were butchered
beyond belief.  I have NEVER heard the opinion that Harmony Gold was
"faithful" to the source material.  What about Carl Macek's plot
hacks like turning Protoculture into an energy source (ugh!) and
making characters who were almost solely responsible for saving
everyone from an alien invasion (in the original) turn out to screw
up totally and actually aid the invasion's success (as in Robotech).

How can you call abominations like this "minor fine tunings"!?!?!?!?

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 87 13:34 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: Macron 1

On the subject of Macron 1...
Since Macron 1 is composed at least in part of footage from Go
Shogun, I think that it would be most interesting if the American
company optioned the film 'Etranger' which was a sequel of sorts.
'Etranger' is just another example of the Japanese studios
willingness to go out on a limb with somewhat experimental material,
thus bringing television and movie SF far closer to the written
variety than has yet been seen in this country.  'Etranger' seems to
be an exploration of one of the characters deepest, innermost
psyche.  It is basically an extended dream sequence that occurs
after a car accident.  In her dream world she must confront all
manner of inner fears.  I cannot accurately describe it beyond that,
since I didn't get an accurate translation.  'Etranger' is one in
what appears to be a new trend in Japanimation, the surrealist film.
Another example is 'Beautiful Dreamer', which was based on the Urusei
Yatsura (Those Obnoxious Aliens) TV series.  In this film, the
characters are literally trapped in one ofthe characters dreams,
wherein they encounter characters from Japanese mythology and
extreme paranoia.  At one point, the characters notice that none of
them seem to be able to leave their hometown, so they get in a plane
and try to fly away, only to discover that their town is on the back
of a giant turtle flying through space!

These films both take established characters and situations and
bring them into flights of fancy far beyond the scope of the
original.  It appeals on the same level to me, that something like
'The Prisoner' or 'Watchmen' does. Taking a cliched concept (spies
and superheroes) and taking it one step further and actually DOING
something with these concepts.

Well, I've managed to go from Silly giant robot shows to a treatise
on surrealist SF.  Sorry folks...

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire COlleg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 23:34:07 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..

     'Robotech Art I' from Donning/Starblaze was mentioned.  What is
this?  Is it a book?  Could someone post the ISBN, price, address
and/or other info about it?

Cheers!

Jim O.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 12:58:12 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck)
Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..

zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes:
>From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>> Robotech is actually composed of 3 originally unrelated shows,
>> those being Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada.  Except for
>> some minor fine tuning to make them all fit together, the
>> American version is surprisingly faithful to the source material.
>> No major violence has been cut, except perhaps some graphic
>> bloodshed, of which there was little to begin with.  They even
>> attempted in some cases to have the American names sound similar
>> to theJapanese ones!  For example, Misa Hayasu became Lisa Hayes.
>
> The plots and characters of the original series were butchered
> beyond belief.  I have NEVER heard the opinion that Harmony Gold
> was "faithful" to the source material.  What about Carl Macek's
> plot hacks like turning Protoculture into an energy source (ugh!)
> and making characters who were almost solely responsible for
> saving everyone from an alien invasion (in the original) turn out
> to screw up totally and actually aid the invasion's success (as in
> Robotech).
>
> How can you call abominations like this "minor fine
> tunings"!?!?!?!?

Could you please be more specific.  I am a big fan of Robotech and
am very interesting in learning about

The Original Plots of Macross, Sothern Cross, , Genesis Climber

The changes that Carl MAcek made to the original plots.

> turning Protoculture into an energy source (ugh!) and making
> characters who were almost solely responsible for saving everyone
> from an alien invasion (in the original) turn out to screw up
> totally and actually aid the invasion's success (as in Robotech).

By this I assume you are refering to Southern Cross.  Again, please
give examples.

Thank You

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 14:11:08 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: M.E.Calloway <CEU1145%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Cc: DERRICK <DERRICK%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>,
Cc:         DREW <DREW%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Hitchhikers.... more!

    Re: Interesting fact about Marvin from The Hitch Hiker's Guide
to the Galaxy.  The actor who played Marvin in both the Radio and TV
Series of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is Stephen Moore
who, incidentally, can presently be seen without robot costume in
Thames TV's "The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole" (Mon.  8pm).

    This is the fictional diary of a pathetic, pretentious 15 year
old suburban Leicester schoolboy and chronicles with very funny and
ironic naievity (sp?) and innocence his perceptions of British life
in the early Thatcher years.  Stephen Moore is Adrian Mole's storage
heater salesman father.  It's not as good as the book (cf.
Hitchiker debate) but transfers better than might be expected.
Perhaps having to play along with ex-60s singing star Lulu as his
wife and the hideously wimpy Gian Sammarco (Adrian Mole) has put
Stephen Moore into an uncontrollable depression.  If he had slipped
back through a time-warp 8 years into the past this could explain
his convincing portrayal of depressive Marvin.

    The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole is, co-incidentally, like The
Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy a TV series of the book of the
radio series.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 87 21:19:08 GMT
From: gtuplab!susan@rutgers.edu (Susan Gregory )
Subject: Re: theme music for Hitch-hiker's Guide

>What is the source of the theme music for Hitch-hiker's Guide to
>the Galaxy (the BBS TV version, at any rate).  Is it something the
>BBC whipped up or, as a friend of mine swears, is it from an old
>Fleetwood Mac album.  The closing credits list a composer and an
>arranger, neither of whom I recognise.  Thanks.

   The theme music to Hitch-hiker's Guide is an electronic version
of the Eagle's "Journey of the Sorcerer", an instrumental piece. I
don't know if the rest of the Guide's music is original or not.

Susan Gregory
Georgia Tech microprocessor lab

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 21:22:46 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Drew <CEU1102%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Cc: DERRICK <DERRICK%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: More details on HH records.

    Re: records to do with Hitchhiker, being a curious sort of
person I looked in the back singles of our Radio Station here and I
found the Theme from HH, (a re-recording of The Eagles number
doubtless to avoid copyright problems), on Original Records (Cat no.
ABO5), with three tracks on the b-side; 1) Reg Nullify in Concert,
2) Disaster Area introduction, and 3) 'It's only the End of the
World again' by Disaster Area themselves.  (Artistic comment: My
co-presenter thought that Reg Nullify was better than Disaster Area
and they pretty awful as well).  All this is from the LP 'The
Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - The Resturant at the End of the
Universe', (Cat no.  ORA54), also on Original Records.  All this
slightly confounds my original theory of them being on Virgin but I
still think this is an offshoot record company so there!

Drew

------------------------------

Date: 14 January 1987 15:23:01 CST
From: U09862%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Carlo N. Samson)
Subject: Starman (TV)

    Anyone out there watch "Starman" (the TV show based on the movie
of the same name)? I do, and I think its one of the best sci-fi
series to come out in a long while. Unlike "The Phoenix" (which had
much the same idea, that of the alien being pursued by the
government man), "Starman" has all the makings of a hit show:
well-drawn characters, intelligent plots, and a nice touch of witty
humor in each episode. The show relies more on its characters and
story than special effects (which "Buck Rogers", "Battlestar
Galactica", etc. should have done). Really, the only special effect
is the Starman's metal sphere, which is used about once an episode.
Robert Hayes plays the title character, C.B Barnes as the
14-year-old son of Jenny Hayden, and Michael Cavanaugh as George
Fox, the FSA agent pursuing them. It currently airs on ABC at 9:00
CST. Watch for it!

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 22:22:11 GMT
From: ihuxb!doctor@rutgers.edu (Wooton)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven

> I have been looking for books
> from the show, or tapes of it, or ANYTHING - mostly so I can tell
> my friends here about it and not have them look at me like I was
> losing my mind.  Can anyone give me any pointers?

Check your local TV-Guide. In some areas it is currently showing on
public television stations. In Chicago it shows at 11:30 PM on
Saturday night. Look around Friday, Saturday or Sunday nights (The
usual nights for Blake's 7, I believe).

Clayton James Wootton
AT&T Information Systems
Naperville, Illinois

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 87 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:

                           Books - Hogan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 January 1987, 15:44:10 EST
From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILER!)

Edwin Wiles, Jef Poskanzer, and Jesse Barber took exception with
some of the statements in my posting about James Hogan's novel The
Two Faces of Tomorrow.  Here is a discussion of some of the points
they raise.

About what becomes obvious by page 8:

We have a survey team which has asked the computers to remove a rock
formation.  When asked if they had any other requirements for that
job, they said no.  The computer said it would do the job in 21
minutes.  The members of the survey team had been expecting it to
take on the order of several days.  They think it must be a mistake,
but maybe not, no, they guess not, so without asking for an
explanation of how the computers plan on doing this, they sign off.
(At this point I apologize for slipping over to page 9.)  And, by
the way, the computer had, of course, failed to justify this
peculiar estimate.

At this point I stopped and thought to myself that they have gone
out of their way to avoid consulting the ultimate authority on the
reason for that estimate.  It occurred to me that the author must be
setting them up for a fall.  It seemed to me that the only obvious
way to remove a large mass of rock that quickly would be to shoot a
missile at it.  The tip off was that "ANY CONSTRAINTS?" query from
the computer.  I realized that the "NO.  JUST GET RID OF IT."
response was going to be taken by the computer as a carte blanche.
So I concluded that the purpose of the prologue was to put forward
the premise that computers can use purely logical means to devise
apparently nonsensical solutions to problems.  Nonsensical, to
humans that is, because they fail to take account of some factor
which humans think is obvious, or because they succeed in making an
association between an ordinary goal and an unusual instrumentality
for achieving that goal.

Of course, this is all much better formed now than it was when it
first came to me, but I really, truly, honestly, did see these
connections & implications.  And I found them very distressing,
because they struck me as being oversights too simple-minded for the
system designers to have made.

About the problems with the basic premise of the novel:

It seems to me that a system which knows about construction work
knows about explosives.  They're used all the time when building
roads.  The designers of a computer system which knows about
construction work would also realize that a system that was to be
trusted with explosives must be required to include consideration
for any risks to humans which any construction plan entailed.  It
would be THEIR butts that would be in slings when the computer spat
out a plan calling for the detonation of explosives while people
were working nearby.

I realize that there are today operating systems which require its
users to beg it not to do things wrong, that is, to enter commands
only just so or disaster may strike, like a file is lost, or a disk
is erased.  But the system under discussion is sufficiently
sophisticated that it is entrusted with the scheduling and control
of earth-moving equipment, and the evaluation of surveying data to
plan and carry out large-scale construction projects.  Such a system
would be given commands like "JUST GET RID OF IT."  It would take
this goal and try to devise a plan which achieved that goal.  But
the designers of the system would never allow a goal to be presented
which did not include a proviso along the lines of "but don't you
DARE let anyone get hurt, no matter HOW important they say this job
is, unless, of course, this goal was given to you by GOD HIMSELF, in
which case you need merely complain bitterly, loud and often about
any and all of the risks involved!"  Something like the way editors
ask "Are you sure? (y/n)" when the user says QUIT after making
changes to a file.  All of which leads me to think that the system
would not have pursued this plan.  And not because it had found a
way to do the job which was later rejected for failing to fulfill
some additional criteria which had been tacked on the side.  But
rather because fulfilling this safety proviso is PART of the job,
and no plan would be regarded by the system as doing the job in any
sense if it failed to fulfill that part of the job.

One might suggest that the program which made the association
between the construction project and the mass driver which slings
moon rocks into space didn't really understand the construction
project programming system or the system which controlled the mass
driver.  Rather, it just noticed some correlation between the ones
needs and the others capabilities.  But that doesn't seem right to
me.  For how could it make such a correlation?  As the system is
described, it somehow saw that a plan taking advantage of the one
system lead to achievement of the other system's goal.  I would
imagine by passing to the construction planning system a suggestion
for a plan and having it evaluate it.  But that just takes us back
to the safety proviso which should be in the construction planning
system.  So the plan should still be rejected.

Of course, a similar safety proviso would have been built into the
system controlling the mass driver.  "You want me to shoot buckets
WHERE?  Hey, that sounds dangerous."

And this gets us to the heart of the problem with this premise.
Regardless of what unanticipated associations the system develops,
the subsystems which make the plans wouldn't accept a plan which
seemed dangerous.  And the subsystems that were asked to carry out
the plans wouldn't accept the commands either, for the same reason.
Namely, it doesn't fit in with its goals, which, by design, take
safety into account. And each, being expert in the use of its own
instrumentalities, should be able to recognize dangerous
applications of those instrumentalities.  Given, that is, a level of
sophistication greater or equal to that known today.

In the novel, the only way to avoid this sort of problem that anyone
suggests is to start adding provisos like "don't use the mass driver
for construction projects", and "please don't eat the daisies."  But
that isn't how we do things today, even.  When a chess program falls
into a trap, we don't just add a detector for that trap (except, of
course, in openings).  Rather, we figure out a way for the program
to see farther down the game tree, so that it can better see the
relationship between the moves leading to the trap and the goal of
the program, which is winning the game.  The same sort of
consideration applies here.  The systems are smart enough to analyze
rock formations based on data from TV cameras and laser ranging
equipment, and to figure out how to remove such rock formations
using construction equipment.  Can't such a system be made to
recognize humans?

I don't see why not.  The system doesn't have to solve any deep
philosophical problems.  It just has to recognize these objects with
a characteristic appearance.  Surely that's easier than analyzing a
rock formation.  And what if it isn't.  There was a terminal in
operation at the site.  Proposition: the objects which operate
terminals are humans.  And in any case, if the system isn't smart
enough to recognize the possibility of hurting humans, dogs, cats
and survey vans, how did it ever get trusted to operate heavy
machinery?  Standard working practice: check to see if the work
envelope is clear of people, cats, dogs, sensitive equipment.
Before detonating explosives, erect barriers, sound alarms, etc.
Something of a not quite recognizable nature is present, ASK WHAT IT
IS!

That still leaves one possibility.  Two subsystems, each normally
quite benign and mundane, somehow get together to do something
dangerous.  In that case, even the safety provisos wouldn't help,
because the designers of each of the subsystems sees that subsystem
as inherently safe.  There is still a simple solution.  These novel
associations are just bonuses that the system tries to dig up.
People would be perfectly happy to go without them.  After all, the
system already works.  So, impose a little extra work on the system
when it happens to find a weird combination that actually seems to
work.  Have it ASK SOMEONE!  It's not that hard.  "Hey, guys.  I can
do the job in 21 minutes, but I have to use boulders projected by
the mass driver system to do it.  OK?"  And, "Hey, guys.  There's a
construction project that would benefit by my lobbing a few boulders
over at it.  OK?"  AND "By the way GOD, I've just established an
association between the moon's mass driver system and a nearby
construction project.  OK?"  The answer, of course, would be NO!
And since the system only came up with this plan because it saw it
as a measurable improvement, it should be easy for it to prioritize
the requests for confirmation of the novel work plans.  I admit that
this may slow the progress of the system ever so slightly, but it
seems much more reasonable than all of the gyrations these guys go
through.

Regarding what can be deduced by the time page 62 has been reached:

While it's true that the specifics of the whole thing haven't been
laid out in excruciating detail yet, quite a bit can be deduced from
what has been established in the first 62 pages.  The HESPER system
is believed to be inadequate, the only way they see to fix it is to
replace it with the even more intelligent FISE system.  But they are
worried that FISE might get out of hand, developing desires at odds
with the needs of the humans which are effectively at its mercy.  On
the other hand, Dyer, the lead scientist, had just completed a test
session with the FISE prototype.  During that session the system was
informed that certain actions were harmful to Herbert, FISE's alter
ego within the confines of this simulation.  FISE concluded not only
that Herbert should avoid doing things like that again, it also
concluded that Brutus, Herbert's dog, should be restrained from
doing similar things, lest it be harmed.  FISE had concluded that
Brutus was like Herbert, and that since Herbert didn't like getting
hurt, neither would Brutus.  Dyer sat & thought about how
significant this was.

What did I conclude?  They would implement a full-scale FISE system,
putting it in charge of the whole world.  It would somehow come to
think of humans as more trouble than they were worth, perhaps as the
result of accident, terrorist sabotage, an attempt to turn off the
system because it had made a mistake (shades of M5), whatever.  Some
sort of battle for control of the system would ensue, with the
computer staying comfortably ahead because it has the resources of a
planet at its disposal (shades of Colossus: The Forbin project).
Finally, someone would get the bright idea to TALK to the thing and
suggest to it that humans are like FISE, which would lead to FISE
making the kind of connection it had made between Herbert and
Brutus.  After which a truce would be declared.  I really, really,
really did think of these things at that time.

Was I completely right?  No, of course not.  The system was
implemented on an experimental space station inhabited by 5000
volunteers from the Army, fitted out with a complete transportation
system, refinery, factory, repair robots, delivery ships, solar
power plant, and fusion power plant.  So not the world, no, but not
a toy either, and with all of the tools at hand necessary for it to
get loose.  The system was deliberately provoked, not accidentally,
to see how it would react, and to make sure that no matter what it
did, the humans could still shut it down.  I knew that wouldn't work
out as soon as the fusion reactor and the repair robots were
mentioned.  And so forth.

Regardless of what adjectives you choose to characterize how close
my guesses were at any moment as I read through this book, the point
is that I always felt that the general form was there and that each
piece dropped into its obvious place not as the various concepts
percolated together, but as soon as it was introduced.  I then had
to wait however many pages it took until the author decided it was
time to use that piece.  In the mean time, the characters go along
blithely ignoring whatever it is, somehow managing never to think of
doing the obvious, saying the obvious, or, especially, ASKING the
obvious question, until it is too late for them to do something
obvious.

It was all very much like in, say, Poltergiest.  Step by step,
really weird things happen.  The people involved keep saying "Wow,
that was weird.  But I guess it's OK now, so let's all go back to
bed."  The things get worse and worse.  The people keep struggling,
but keep thinking they still have things more or less under control.
Finally, it gets really awful, somebody remembers the McGuffin (or
whatever), and a truce is declared.  And I always know that after
that very first incident, I would be out of the house wearing no
more than when I first caught on to this jive, and no power on EARTH
would get me back in there ever again in my LIFE.  Which is not to
say that Poltergiest did not entertain me.  It did.  But that was
for reasons other than plot and logical consistency, since I accept
the haunted house formula for what it is, and it wasn't put forward
as anything more serious than a simple-minded entertainment with
some good scares in it.

But the same cannot be said for Hogan's Two Faces of Tomorrow.  He
filled that book with endless details, descriptions, and scientific
discussions.  He even invokes the name of Marvin Minsky in his
dedication.  I expect characters in such stories to make intelligent
use of the information in hand as soon as they get it, I expect them
to think of things as soon as they become obvious, and I expect them
to do what intelligent people do when in doubt: they ask.

But not in this story.  No one comes up with the fairly simple
solutions I proposed to fix the HESPER system.  No one realizes how
out of control the system could easily become until long after the
system has taken measures which they should have anticipated before
the experiment started.  When they see that the system is smarter
than they are, they continue to use half measures to try to keep
things together.  And whenever the computer does something which is
startling, they never ask it what it did, how or why.  Even though,
back when they had the prototype that was the standard procedure.

[End of Part I - Moderator]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 87 0942-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Jan 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Brust & Hogan (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 87 23:27:42 est
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #12

Just to be perverse......

I think Teckla follows naturally from Jhereg and Yendi. I really do.
Cawti's anti-Dragaeranism is brought out in Yendi so that her stance
in Teckla is reasonable. The only thing is, she seemed smarter in
the earlier books -- too smart to become such an ideologue as in
Teckla.  But then, the revolutionary movement is portrayed through
Vlad's eyes -- obviously not a disinterested observer.

Clearly, the two earlier books are written in a somewhat different
tone, but the theme of Dragaeran-H.Sap. conflict is always there,
always discussed from different viewpoints -- like the breakup
between Cawti and her partner, the view from Kragar's alienated
position, even in the general discrimination against the Jhereg from
the other houses. Of course in Teckla, the Teckla are the pariahs in
question.

Unfortunately for the revolution, not only do the "bosses" in this
case control the money and the swords, they've got the sorcery as
well....

Another thing I liked was Vlad's realization that he has been
deluding himself all these years, that no matter how he cuts it,
assassination, etc. is just not nice.... From the egalitarian side,
it doesn't matter that he has just been beating up on Dragaerans --
just because they're 8' tall, superhumanly strong and long-lived,
and act on the whole fairly childishly doesn't mean they're not
people. And from the egocentric side, Vlad himself is a reincarnated
Dragaeran, and an important one at that.

If there is another book to come chronologically after Teckla, these
themes have to be resolved, an unenviable task -- no matter what, it
will sound moralistic and Piers-Anthony-like. However (hint hint),
it would be even worse NOT to write a sequel, leaving everything
hanging -- philosophically unsatisfying, at the least.

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers

------------------------------

Date: 16 January 1987, 15:44:10 EST
From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILER!)

[Part II - Moderator]

About the nature of man-machine communication:

In order to communicate with the FISE prototype at CUNY, the
scientists entered commands & queries at a keyboard.  The computer
responded by voice and by graphic display.  The humans didn't use
voice to avoid problems with the computer misunderstanding them.
See page 41.

The space station on which the test took place was a technological
wonder.  They had every doo-dad known to their scientists.  See the
descriptions which begin on page 132.  This includes more computing
power than you could shake a stick at.  See the descriptions which
start on page 171.

When the system somehow seems to have spontaneously developed more
processing power, how do the people investigate.  By tracing the
changes to the system at the circuit level.  See page 220.  Given
the claims as to the size of the system, it's amazing that takes
minutes rather than days.  But why do that at all, why not ask the
system?  No reason, except that it suits the author.

When one of the scientists wants to check on what had been going on
in the system since yesterday, he examines a paper log.  PAPER!
With circles drawn around interesting items.  The log of a system
larger than all of the machines we now have on the entire earth.
This is for the entire overnight shift, mind you, not just 1
particular millisecond.  And this is not a summary; the summary
pages are appended on the back.  Somehow this log can be held in one
hand.  See pages 222 & 223.  Of course, it could be heavily
condensed.  That's really not the point, although I am very
suspicious as to how they derive the level of detail of information
about the activities of particular parts of the system from such a
heavily condensed log.  The big problem is that they didn't ask the
system about the anomalies they find, they send someone off to take
an physical inventory.

And all of this failure to consult the system directly is not due to
a lack of cooperation of the system.  The system at no point stopped
accepting input from terminals.  Once it deduced that certain
programs were issuing commands to devices which were fighting
against it, the system did shut down the communication links to
those devices, but even that wasn't until after the events I've
described above.  See page 250.  It's quite clear that all along
they had been using the system to enter their commands, run their
programs, communicate with their robots.

And when it comes time for the humans to make their peace offering
to the system, we find them standing in a room next to the console
of a computer which is attached to the system.  That's what it says
on page 349.  And they say "We'll have to try telling it." and "It
doesn't speak our language."  These are two of the guys who have
worked on the system since it was a prototype at CUNY.  They are the
designers & programmers of that prototype.  They've been working
with the system on the space station since it was first conceived.
Their solution: activate a console camera to transmit an image of
them to the system, so as to attract its attention.  And not because
the system is ignoring their console input, but quite clearly
because they don't know how to communicate with it.  "It doesn't
speak our language."  They are perfectly able to use the system to
draw the diagrams they use for their mime act for the system.  It's
just that 2 of the systems original designers don't know how to
communicate with it efficiently.  See page 350.

    "There's some kind of response on the screen!" Chris gasped.
  "It's the diagram of Janus that we put in at the beginning.  Some
  part of Sparticus seems to be throwing it back at us.  What does
  it mean?"
    "Maybe it's asking for clarification," Ron suggested.

"Janus" is the name of the space station, "Spartacus" is their name
for the system.

As to the voice equipment.  The whole point of that is that it
showed that back in the lab they made an effort to make
communication with the prototype as easy & rational as possible.
When they got to the real thing, suddenly they didn't know or care.

It all certainly suits the author, who is attempting to build some
suspense into the tale, but it just seems silly to me.

As to the intelligence of mounting the experiment:

I never claimed that performing the experiment was idiotic.  Given
their inability to develop a system which they were sure would be
safe, it makes perfect sense.  It is that inability of theirs which
bothers me and which I have already discussed.  That and the fact
that when it was over they drew the wrong conclusion.  They
concluded that the system was safe and could therefore be put in
place, as it was, on earth.  After all, it had gone from aggression
to cooperation after learning more of the nature of humans.  See
page 384 and the vicinity.  But that wasn't the point of the
experiment, which was to prove that if the system decided it didn't
like us, that we could still turn it off.  And that wasn't proved.
Instead, the system lead the humans to believe that turning it off
was no longer necessary.  Nor was there any proof that the system
wouldn't become aggressive again at some later date.  None
whatsoever.  All they knew was that the system had recognized that
for some short time the cooperation of the humans might be
beneficial.  (Shades of M5 again.)

About some of the moral issues:

There was one part of the book that was kinda nice.  When the
prototype FISE system is being tested using the simulated doll
house, we see FISE as Herbert, a simple fellow who the programmers
are teaching to perform little tasks, like making breakfast.  We
also have Brutus, Herbert's dog, who runs about doing things
independently of Herbert's (FISE's) control.  Herbert's simplicity
is played for laughs, but Hogan makes the point that this is also
very serious, that we are seeing the first glimmerings of true
intelligence, awareness of self, awareness of others, and the
display of genuine empathy.  Herbert CARED about the safety of
Brutus.  But Dyer never takes this creature he has created
seriously.  It's just a toy.

Even when we reach the end of the story, with the Spartacus system
accepted as an intelligent creature in some sense, Dyer only claims
that FURTHER torturing of the system would be wrong.  He never
suggests that what had gone on before was in any way cruel, or
unkind.  He feels that the system had been put to the test, and by
passing it had earned the right to be treated better.

And when they finally go back to the lab, Herbert has been primed to
make a petulant speech about how Dyer was mean to have left it alone
for so long.  Herbert is the comic figure again, to be poked at, its
intelligence & feelings just a joke.

This is morally abhorrent to me.  The FISE/Herbert prototype acted
in a fashion which made a good prima facia case that it is a
sentient creature in its own right.  See page 62.  Regardless of the
level of intelligence of the creature, its probable sentience is
sufficient to immediately impose on Dyer some very serious moral
responsibilities.  It is, for all moral intents, his child.  Its
being retarded doesn't in any way reduce his responsibilities toward
it.  How does he discharge these responsibilities?  He leaves it in
the hands of one of his lesser assistants, with, as far as we know,
no instructions given as to the proper treatment of this creature.
All we know is that when Dyer gets back, Herbert has been taught to
complain of its treatment, and this as a joke.

The same argument applies to the full-scale Spartacus system.  Dyer
already knew of Herbert's proto-sentience when the Spartacus
experiment was first being proposed and planned.  Which is to say,
he planned to construct a computer system which, being much more
sophisticated than FISE, would become sentient more quickly, and
then planned to torture that system in various ways to see how it
reacted.  That's EVIL!  And to suggest that intelligent creatures
have to forcefully demonstrate their sentience in order to earn the
right to be kept safe from intentional torture is simply incredible.

It is true that we do have medical researchers performing
experiments on animals which lead to suffering.  I don't much like
the thought of it.  But the ideal striven for is that the animals
not suffer unnecessarily, that they be treated as considerately as
is possible under the circumstances.  But no thought whatsoever was
given to Spartacus' feelings.  When it's decided that things have
really gotten out of hand, the plan is to progressively sever the
connections Spartacus to its limbs (robots) and heart (fusion
reactor).  No thought is given to how Spartacus will feel, its
dread, its fear, its horror.  Dyer never says "I don't know what, or
if, it's thinking, but I hope it understands we don't really mean to
harm it now, we're just trying to protect ourselves."  Nothing.
It's disgusting.

Richard

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 09:13:39 PST (Thursday)
From: NNicoll.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: HITLER VICTORIOUS and Hogan

*****Slight Spoiler*****

I am almost finished with Hogan's new book, "Proteus Operation" and
it is good enough that I am sorry to see it end.  It has Hitler
winning the war, losing the war, getting shrugged off as the madman
he was and a few other twists as well.  Add this to your list of
alternate WWII histories.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 16:44:01 GMT
From: looking!brad@rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan

From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
>I just finished this.  I know it may be old news (its copyright
>date is 1979) but it upset me so much that I had to write about it.
>
>Somehow these supposedly brilliant designers hadn't even heard of
>Asimov's first law of robotics, or its equivalent in that universe.
>Nor, once they decided they needed it, could they figure out how to
>build a system which obeyed it.
>
>And I think I've made my point, which is that this is a bad novel,
>based on a half-witted premise, and with a plot to match.

I have to give an opposite review and call this the best treatment
of AI in a novel that I have read.  (mind you, based on other
treatments, that isn't saying much)

The characters are somewhat flat, but the plot and battle are
gripping.  Even if you know enough about this sort of story to
predict the ending, it doesn't really bother you.

What impresses me about Hogan is that he works very hard to
understand the subject of his novels.  He doesn't just dream up some
fantasies and pass them by a few friends.  While no SF writer can be
expected to write a story that a professional in the field won't
find holes in, I think Hogan does about as good a job as he can.

(Hogan is not a programmer, I think he's a salesman or something for
Dec)

A definite A for this book.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 Jan 87 00:57:27-PST
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: re: Two_Faces_of_Tomorrow, some spoilers, some quotes, some
Subject: opinions

"Richard P. King" <RPK@IBM.COM> writes:
>To help it along, and to understand its motives for certain acts,
>they converse with it, either by terminal or voice.  Then they
>build the big system and the trouble starts.  Not once, through the
>rest of the story, does anyone converse with the system.

Umm...if you look again, you'll find that they never did talk to
FISE:

>``Its's okay,'' Dyer reassured her.  ``That's only FISE.  We only
>uuse voice channels one-way.  By using the touchboard to talk to
>him, at least we can be sure that he understood exactly what we
>said.  If you added possible semantics problems on top of all this,
>the whole thing would become ridiculous.'' (p. 41)

Not only do they not communicate aloud, they don't even use natural
language (``Chris silently translated Ron's question into touchboard
commands'' (p. 42))

Modulo a couple of mediocre character developments, this is a Great
Book.  (It's one of my favorites.)  It's also one of the few books
I've read about realistic computer technology that's done it right.
(To the person who said that the movie WarGames was realistic: Get
Serious.  There were so many obvious things wrong with the
technology in that movie that it ruined the entire (relatively
plausible) story for me.  I don't know whether the book did it
better, but what bugged me about the movie was that with just a
little effort they could've gotten it right.  But that's another
topic.)

Anyway, to anyone who likes science fiction, but stays away from
stories about computers because nobody does them right: read
The_Two_Faces_of_Tomorrow.

Evan Kirshenbaum
Stanford University
evan@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU
{ucbvax,decvax}!decwrl!glacier!evan

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 05:55:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James

I read the book too, and I think I like the basic idea.  I am not an
expert in AI, but it is the first time I realize that our brain is
not in any way superior to a massive computer.  The story is not
well told (especially the battle), but I think it is very optimistic
about the future of the computers.  The problem about the half wit
computer is that it does not even know that certain action will hurt
human.  Again I am no expert in AI, so please explain how to make a
self programmed computer to obey the 3 laws.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jan 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bester & Brin & Brunner & Brust (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 10:21:50 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Alfred Bester

From:   cmcl2!chenj     (Jimmy Chen)
>       The general consensus on the identity of my story is that
> it was written by Alfred Bester and called 5,271,009. Everyone
> agreed it was a number, but only two people agreed on the specific
> number.  I haven't found the story yet so I'm not positive on the
> exact value, but it must be close.

Well, Bester does have a story called "5,271,009" that appeared in
his collection THE LIGHT FANTASTIC, as well as the following
anthologies:

ALPHA 4                         (ed. Robert Silverberg)
ASSIGNMENT IN TOMORROW          (ed. Frederik Pohl)
MODERN SCIENCE FICTION          (ed. Norman Spinrad)
TWNETY YEARS OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION
                                (ed. Ed Ferman & Robert Mills)
SCIENCE FICTION OF THE 50'S     (ed. Martin H. Greenberg)

> ...Now I have another query. It should probably go to
> rec.arts.books, but I'll ask here anyway.
>
> Who was the author for the stories of detective Solar Pons?

Originally August Derleth, but after his (Derleth's) death, some
pastiches were written by Basil Copper.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 07:58 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Brin's "River of Time"

I just read a new science fiction short story collection by David
Brin called "The River of Time" or something very much like that.
It is the best short story collection I have read in a very long
time.  There are 11 tales, four of which are new, and they are all
quite good.  Most are awesome.

I recommend this collection heartily!

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 09:35:43 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Seeking John Brunner bibliography

From:   styx!mcb        (Michael C. Berch)
> I am looking for a comprehensive bibliography of the book-length
> works of John Brunner. I have some thirty-five of his books, but
> he has published many more, and I would like to collect them all.
> I've already tried several of the SF specialty stores and cannot
> find any critical studies or bibliographies; if none exists, it
> might be fun to construct one.
>
> If you can assist, please correspond with me at the address below.
> Thanks in advance.

Well, I'm not about to type one in, you can be assured, since he's
had something on the order of 70 books published (not counting title
changes and the like), but I'll point you in a couple of directions.
Find a library that has the following three reference books and
check them out:

Currey, L. W., SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY AUTHORS: A BIBLIOGRAPHY
        OF FIRST PRINTINGS, (Boston: G. K. Hall, 1979).
Reginald, R., SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY LITERATURE [2 volumes],
        (Detroit: Gale Research, 1979).
Smith, Curtis C., TWENTIETH CENTURY SCIENCE FICTION WRITERS, (New
        York: St. Martin's, 1985).

If none of your local libraries have any of these, you might be able
to get a hold of them through inter-library loan. At the very least,
any good library should have a set of COMTEMPORARY AUTHORS, which
should have an entry on Brunner (though God only knows how out of
date it might be).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 02:51:31 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Teckla

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
> <STILL POSSIBLE SPOILERS>
> There are so many stories here that I would like to hear (like
> Vlad's trip to deathgate falls, when Vlad met Morollan

These will be covered in EASTER BUNNY.  Excuse me, that's EASTERNER.
I've just completed a second draft.  Depending on ACE's schedule, it
may be out in a year or so.

Thanks for your interest.

*** Mild Spoiler Warning ***

> question: Did Devera appear? I read Teckla fairly quickly and can
> only think of one possible reference but then it could have been
> wishful thinking. When Franz appeared, for a moment(during the
> explanation of how souls move about) I thought it was Devera
> but....

Check the bottom half of page 81.   Heh heh heh

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 21:42:38 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Teckla (could be a potential spoiler)

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
> Is Spellbreaker a Great Weapon, as I now begin to
> suspect?

Questions of skzb's deviousness aside, I have an alternate theory.
Several questions have arisen concerning why Spellbreaker hasn't
acted to protect Vlad when he didn't realize he was being attacked,
which, in my mind, tend to disconfirm the plausibility of the theory
that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon. Actually, I have 2 theories:

  1) Vlad is simply the greatest sorcerer of the time. Spellbreaker
     is nothing more than a focus for his innate, but unrecognized
     power. The sickness he feels on teleporting is simply a natural
     reaction of the Easterner body into which he was reincarnated
     which is being subjected to more raw power than it can handle.
     Spellbreaker doesn't protect him because it is an inanimate,
     powerless piece of gold-like chain. If I remember correctly,
     this hypothesis is supported by the a certain incident
     involving raw chaos.

  2) When Vlad walked the Paths of the Dead, he was actually in a
     twilight state between life and death, and acquired the (rather
     powerful) soul of our favorite Important-Dragaeran-turned-
     assassin. This hypothesis is supported by a) the seeming
     unlikelihood of a Dragaeran being spontaneously reincarnated in
     the body of an Easterner, and b) the supposed impossibility of
     surviving the trip over the Falls. At the time of this
     transferal of souls, the new Vlad decided he needed _his_ Great
     Weapon for some reason and forced the _soul_ of his Weapon into
     the piece of chain the Easterner body was carrying.
     Spellbreaker doesn't help him because it is having the same
     difficulties adjusting to its new body as its owner is to his.

Well, enough silliness for now. (unless, of course, Steven Brust is
listening and decides to *use* some of these ideas :-) ;-)

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 87 00:53 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Brust's books

I've been noticing the remarks about Brust's books.  One of his
books that I haven't seen mentioned (probably through
inattentiveness) was _To Reign in Hell_, which I thought excellent.
In fact, of all his books that I've read (five?  hmm...) I'd have to
rate it the most entertaining.

On the whole, I have mixed feelings about _Teckla_.  As someone
noted, it wasn't the book I expected to read (before reading it, I
had just reread _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_).  However, it was well done.

I am currently reading _Brokedown Palace_.  I am, I think, about
halfway through.  Again, it was not the book I expected to read.
What should I have expected?  I can't say.!  I think I expected a
more tangible conflict than the one presented in the first few
chapters.  I'll probably change my opinions after I finish the
book.  Opinions are, indeed, fickle.!

nj, borrowing <c78kck@irishmvs.bitnet>

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 09:10:38 PST (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re:Teckla [Spoiler Warning: TECKLA and JHEREG]

>On the other hand: a Great Weapon should have acted like Pathfinder
>did in JHEREG: it protected Aliera from a sorcerous attack in the
>tavern, when she wasn't paying attention.  If Spellbreaker is a
>Great Weapon, why didn't it do the same for Vlad a few seconds
>later?  (On the other hand: a Great Weapon it may be, but Godslayer
>it certainly isn't.  And Pathfinder was something special, even
>for a Great Weapon.)

However, we know that having a Great Weapon doesn't always help one.
Morrolan, for instance, was taken out quickly and easily and even
made unrevivifiable while posessing Blackwand, a Great Weapon.
Therefore, Pathfinder may have acted at Aliera's instruction or been
triggered because the spell the sorceress cast represented a danger
to Aliera's soul.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 18:07:12 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Teckla (could be a potential spoiler)

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:

>  1) Vlad is simply the greatest sorcerer of the time. Spellbreaker
>     is nothing more than a focus for his innate, but unrecognized
>     power. The sickness he feels on teleporting is simply a
>     natural reaction of the Easterner body into which he was
>     reincarnated which is being subjected to more raw power than
>     it can handle. Spellbreaker doesn't protect him because it is
>     an inanimate, powerless piece of gold-like chain. If I
>     remember correctly, this hypothesis is supported by the a
>     certain incident involving raw chaos.

I'd like to propose the Heisenbe... err, Holloway (yeah, that's it)
uncertainty principle... your postings to a public network are
affected by expected readers, especially if one of those readers is
the author of the book you're discussing...

(skzb here, Diane Duane on Compuserve, Mike Resnick, Orson Scott
Card, and Jack Chalker on Delphi, Douglas Adams on the Source, etc
etc etc)

But now that I've put in enough trash to confuse our news poster...

All Easterners feel sick when teleporting. Cawti does, we know that
from several places, and it's even mentioned in "Teckla". If Vlad
were the greatest sorceror of all time, I think we'd have found some
indication.

There is proof that he's a reincarnated Dragarean, of course. And
since we didn't know Vlad before going over the Falls, we don't know
if he was always one. However, he never refers to an overpowering of
his Easterner soul with a Draegarean (<-- I'll just keep spelling it
differently until I get it right) soul, so I'd tend to doubt this.

Given: Spellbreaker is magical.
       Great Weapons are magical.

This does not prove that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon.

Given: Dragaereans from Vlad's former line all have Great Weapons.
       Vlad is formerly of this line.

If this heredity does make one entitled to a Great Weapon; in
essence, make possession of one mandatory, then Spellbreaker is
probably a Great Weapon.  This can't be proved without requiring the
Q.E.D. as a given... circular reasoning.

* POINTS *

First, I recall that all the other great weapons are swords (is this
true?).

But even more intersting...

Second, In Trumps of Doom, Merlin has a chain identical (in concept,
at least) to Spellbreaker. (Who's copying from who?)

Third, there are shadow earths (in Amber) that actually have near
clones of the Amberites in them (this is hinted at several times)

So... Vlad is really a near clone of Merlin, from the Amber series.

Justification? I'm a reader, not a book-writer!

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 03:26:25 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla

dzoey@terminus.umd.edu (Joe I. Herman) writes:
>I just finished Teckla, and let me tell you, it's not the carefree
>book that Jhereg and Yendi were.  I had hoped to sit down with this
>book and have a couple of hours of good laughs and pure escapism.
>This is not that kind of a book.  From the other reviews I've read,
>this is what most people wanted the book to be, which does lead to
>some less than enthusiastic reviews.
>
>As a book (and not 'as the book I wanted to read') I very much
>enjoyed Teckla.  I have long felt that SKZB's strength was in his
>characterizations and the good way he communicates his characters
>to the reader.  This book allowed Vlad to become a much more
>complicated person than the happy-go-lucky assassin he was in his
>earlier books and I found I was more involved in this book than the
>previous two.  What was a little disconcerting was the change in
>Cawti's character.  SKZB explained it away by saying that Vlad
>hadn't noticed she was becoming different until all of a sudden,
>she was a 'different person' from the one he married.  This
>explanation seemed a little superficial at first, but from what
>I've heard from people who've gotten divorced after quite a few
>years, it may be true.  Either way, having troubles with Cawti
>allowed me to believe Vlad's lack of direction throughout the book.
>After all, if I was fighting the woman I loved, I'd be distraught
>also.  I felt this was a good reason for Vlad to be so unsure of
>himself, which otherwise would have been way out of character.
>Nicely executed.

As one of those who posted one of those ``less than enthusiastic''
reviews: now that I've had a few weeks to let it percolate, I must
agree.  It was something of a shock to pick up a book in a series of
light SF and find myself reading a serious character-developing
story... but it was a damned good one, for all that it wasn't what I
expected.

As for Vlad being unsure of himself; the seeds of this are in
JHEREG.  (See below.)  Cawti only added to it.  (But I still ask:
three DAYS (not weeks, not months, not years!) before the events in
TECKLA, Cawti performed an assassination as part of helping Vlad in
JHEREG.  Is it REALLY that likely that she would change so much in
only three days???)

>There are some things I wonder about the book.  Vlad mentions a few
>times about Sethra telling him he was a reincarnated Dragaerian.  I
>don't remember the scene where she tells him this.  Was it in one
>of the other books?

It wasn't Sethra, it was Aliera.  See JHEREG, chapter 9 (``You can't
put it together again unless you've torn it apart first.''), the
last two paragraphs.  And after *that*, he was doubting himself to
some extent for the rest of the story.  I don't blame him --
especially considering WHO he (as the reincarnated Dragaeran) was,
and who Aliera as a reincarnated Dragaeran was...

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105, Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210 before 10:15am or after 8:00 pm
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!tdi2!brandon
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 06:15:35 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Teckla

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>As for Vlad being unsure of himself; the seeds of this are in
>JHEREG.  (See below.)  Cawti only added to it.  (But I still ask:
>three DAYS (not weeks, not months, not years!) before the events in
>TECKLA, Cawti performed an assassination as part of helping Vlad in
>JHEREG.  Is it REALLY that likely that she would change so much in
>only three days???)

Well, over on BIX sbrust has been a little more open about Tekla.
One of his comments was to the effect that the story had kind of
gone the way it wanted to.  So, the few sentences in Jhereg that
would have made Cawti's new interests go down smoothly weren't
there, but then the focus is really on Vlad with the others mostly
being moved around for best illumination.

To my mind this suggests that the author has been undergoing some of
that character development also.  I'm not complaining, it's obvious
that brust has style and storytelling down, now it seems he's trying
to find what he really wants to write about.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 87 0812-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & Bradley & Cabell & Foster &
                    Gerrold (2 msgs) & Hogan (3 msgs) & 
                    MacLeod

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 12:34 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: More on Douglas Adams' new book

Simon and Schuster has a five-page ad in the front of the current
(16 January) issue of Publishers Weekly.  The first book mentioned
is Douglas Adams' _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.  The ad
mentions the four Hitchhiker books (which have sold over a quarter
of a million copies in hardcover -- very impressive), then goes on
to say:

"Douglas Adams is a true publishing phenomenon.  Here are all the
magic ingredients which have made him that: a search for a missing
cat, a bewildered ghost, a hidden time-traveller, the secret behind
all human history ... the delightful mixture as before with the same
guaranteed sales results.  May.  ...  Major national
advertising. ...  National author tour."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 87 09:17:21 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: Re: Darkover Biblio Request

"J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> in a diatribe on
Marion Zimmer Bradley's later Darkover novels writes:
> ... reduced a main character (Peter?) from 2.5 dimensions to
> rather close to 1 dimension.

I beg to differ with two parts of this statement.  Peter was not a
main character in _The Shattered Chain_, and he started at about 1.5
dimensions, and remained about there, or maybe a bit less, in my
opinion.  The main characters in The Shattered Chain were the women
from the start.  And from the start, I felt Peter was a jerk, and he
didn't transform much through Thendara House.  What changed was the
characters' perceptions of Peter.  Remember, that Magda was not
telepathic when she was married to him, and Jaelle was.

As far as the books go, I agree that the feminism in Thendara House
was stronger than earlier books, but that didn't interfere with my
enjoyment of it.  I found Thendara House to be the best of the
Renunciates trilogy (The Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of
Sorcery).  Everyone's taste differs, and I'm sure there are readers
on the net who would enjoy these books, just as surely as there are
those who share your feelings.  A blanket caveat against everything
past Thendara House is unwarranted, especially when you haven't read
them.  Remember that The Mists of Avalon was written after Thendara
House, and many feel that to be her best work.

I'm not going to touch the pornography statement, because it is too
ridiculous to warrant a response.

Brett Slocum
ARPA: hi-csc!slocum@UMN-CS.ARPA
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 11:37 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Fantasy & Donaldson & TLOTR

elrond!adb@rutgers.edu (Alan D. Brunelle) writes:
>Having read alot of Tolkien (LoTR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and some
>of the Christopher T. books) I believe that it would be hard to
>read *any* Fantasy book that did not have some comparisons with J.
>R. R's works, for two reasons: 1. His works encompassed so many
>aspects of fantasy lore, and 2. I would bet that just about
>*everybody* has read LoTR, and as I remember hearing before, there
>is nothing new under the sun.

There is actually a bit of fantasy that is fairly different from
Tolkien -- the first example that comes to mind are the works of
James Branch Cabell (Figures of Earth, The Silver Stallion, Jurgen,
etc.), whose work predates Tolkien (Cabell wrote from about 1900
until the mid '50s).  While there were some elements in common,
Cabell wrote from an extremely sardonic viewpoint (particularly in
his later works).  His cynicism and wit make his writing extremely
entertaining.

Cabell drew on mythology quite a bit, mixing and matching from
various cultures (one of the basic propositions of his ``universe''
was that all the gods believed in by man existed, and their relative
power was related to the extent that man believed in them).

It would be interesting to study the effect that TLOTR has had on
modern fantasy writing -- I suspect that it has been largely
negative, with many writers imitating a huge success rather than
trying to find their own voice.

Rich
welty@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 07:25:30 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: Aliens:  The Book:  Not nearly as good as the movie (Minor
Subject: Spoiler).

   Today I read excerpts of _Aliens_ by Alan Dean Foster because I
was looking for a description of scenes that were filmed but cut
(like the one where Ripley finds that her daughter is dead).  I
found this, but it didn't help because the book is written as if the
Moral Majority or something had gotten its censoring hands on it.
Not only is all of the harsh language gone, but all the rest of the
humanity, including the peoples' humor, which was a significant part
of the movie.  It has been wimped down almost to the level of a
children's book.  I wonder what happened to cause this?  While I
have often heard (and noticed) that movies produced from books are
generally much inferior to the books, I am beginning to think that
the reverse is also true.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
lucius@tardis.harvard.edu
seismo!tardis!lucius

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 87 11:02:47 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: myers@hobiecat.Caltech.Edu
Subject: Gerrold

> Does anybody know if there are any plans for mhorr of the Chtorr
> books? (apologies to Anne McCaffrey).
>
> I have the first two, and it's been TWO YEARS since _A Day for
> Damnation_ came out.

Yes.  Gerrold had a little argument with his old publishers (in his
words, he took great pleasure in returning the contract to Pocket
books in a bag, torn into little tiny pieces, and telling their
lawyers exactly what they could do with it -- to the great dismay of
his agent...).  The rights to the first two books have finally
reverted, and the series has been sold to a new publisher.  It will
probably be a year before you see the next book, but it IS coming.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 19:24:52 GMT
From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241)
Subject: Re: David Gerrold

Gerrold is also on Gene Roddenberry's staff at Paramount putting
together 'Star Trek: The New Generation".  He has said that he is
too busy right now to do other projects.

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 17:45:34 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILERS!)

I believe the machine in the lab had only voice output - the
characters normally spoke the same commands they were typing into
the machine, to give the illusion of conversation.

Actually, the lab machine was not much more complicated than a good
Infocom game, as far as input and output went.

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 01:59:02 GMT
From: wales@locus.ucla.edu (Rich Wales)
Subject: Re: _Giant's Star_ by Hogan (SPOILER WARNING!)

gts@axiom.UUCP (Guy Schafer) asks a question about the plot of
_Giant's Star_ by James P. Hogan.

Those who have not yet read this book may not wish to read beyond
this point, since the rest of this message constitutes a major
"spoiler" for the ending of the story.

(SPOILER FOLLOWS)

>When VISAR took over some of JEVEX, why didn't they just stick to
>the story that the Earth had remained militarized and VISAR
>fabricated the disarmament?  Then JEVEX could have looked at the
>(actually faked) reports of the impending strike force as if VISAR
>had let it see the "truth."
>
>By changing the information inside JEVEX so that it reported
>conflicting information, the Jevlenese were bound to discover that
>VISAR had penetrated it -- at which time it would seem obvious that
>the strike force was a sham.

I think the Terrans (who suggested the idea of feeding
misinformation into JEVEX; the Thuriens' and Ganymeans' idea,
remember, was simply to penetrate JEVEX and crash it) wanted to
mentally unbalance the Jevlenese as much as possible.

Recall that the Jevlenese had been so used to depending on JEVEX for
absolutely everything -- and trusting it implicitly -- that it took
them a *very* long time to finally realize that it was not working
properly.  We are probably *much* more suspicious of the correct
operation of com- puters than they were (since we're much more
accustomed to computers that act strangely, or that don't work at
all, than the Jevlenese were).

The Jevelenese's dependence on JEVEX was probably so complete that
they never even took notes!  I'm not kidding; why bother taking your
own notes when JEVEX knows and remembers everything anyway?  For
that matter, even if you did take notes -- or thought you were
taking notes -- you were likely as not simply going through the
mental motions of writ- ing things down, because you would usually
be hooked up to JEVEX through a perceptron anyway.

If you accepted the idea that JEVEX might be lying to you, you might
as well go all the way and assume that *nothing* you perceived
corresponded to reality at all.

OK, back to the idea of giving Broghuilio a nervous breakdown.
Simply making the Jevlenese think Earth was militarized after all
and was preparing to attack Jevlen wasn't enough.  Even letting
them think right from the start that the Terran attack was imminent
probably wouldn't have been as effective in instilling panic as the
step-by-step procedure they actually followed:

(1) Having Verikoff arrogantly tell off Broghuilio and threaten a
    Terran attack on Jevlen (p. 263).

(2) Having the Jevlenese fleet -- trying to make it home in order to
    face the Terran attack -- instead scattered hither and yon
    because of VISAR's playing around with the transfer beams (p.
    267).

(3) Having Calazar refuse to intervene (p. 275).

(4) After doing all of the above, adding insult to injury by moving
    the attack schedule drastically forward (p. 279).

The image I get here is one of forcing Broghuilio into greater and
greater panic and desperation.  Simply presenting him from the very
start with a 12-hour deadline for an invasion from Earth probably
would not have done it.  Closing in on him gradually, and having
move after move on his part blocked in succession, was much more
effective.  At the end of all the above, Broghuilio was in fact
ready to surrender; I doubt he would have done so simply on the
force of Verikoff's threat.

>Even after the Jevlenese figure out that VISAR got into JEVEX, they
>don't seem to figure out that the strike force was faked -- WHEN
>THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST OBVIOUS CONCLUSION!

Yeah.  That troubled me a bit too.  The best explanation I can think
of is that the Jevlenese trusted JEVEX so completely, so implicitly,
that it just never occurred to them that infiltration from VISAR
could have gone that far.  It was probably infinitely easier for
them to conceive of VISAR's monitoring traffic through JEVEX than of
VISAR's actually being able to change JEVEX's memory and operation.

Also, remember that the Jevlenese -- after they broke off the
official links between JEVEX and VISAR (p. 221) -- were *totally*
unaware of the two clandestine links which got set up later on (one
through the perceptron at the Alaskan air force base and the JEVEX
terminal in Sverinssen's house; the other through the _Shapieron_).

Indeed, it wasn't until Estordu actually saw the _Shapieron_ tailing
the Jevlenese ships (p. 293) that it finally dawned on him what had
been going on all this time.  By then, of course, it was too late.

>Seems that the broadcast from the Jevlenese base in Conneticut
>should have been made, and VISAR shouldn't have messed with the
>internal memories of JEVEX.  Why did VISAR have to change JEVEX's
>memory of past events?

That one's a bit easier to answer.  I suspect that the answer goes
back again to the issue of the vividness and imminency of the
threat.  Seeing a bunch of *highly realistic* pictures of
preparations for an attack (courtesy of VISAR :-}) undoubtedly
created a much more vivid image than simply hearing Verikoff
threaten an attack.

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
(ucbvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 20 January 1987, 10:37:29 EST
From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow (SPOILER!)

The posting by xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU requests an explanation of
how a self-programmed computer could be made to obey Asimov's 3
laws.  Let me first make it clear that in my previous discussions of
this subject I was only discussing this problem with respect to the
half-wit Hesper system, which was not self-programming, merely
clever in finding new ways to mix & match various programs to
achieve greater efficiency.  Doing the same for the full-scale
Spartacus system, which was capable of altering programs running
within itself and within other lesser computers attached to it, is a
different kettle of fish entirely.

My first thought was that you might accomplish this feat by
insulating Spartacus from its environment in such a way that
everything it did would first be checked for safety.  Every time it
wanted a robot's arm to remove a screw from a panel, the robot (or
its control computer) would have to check to see if that might be
harmful to humans.  Etc.  Of course, the code which did the checking
would have to be in ROM, so that Spartacus couldn't circumvent it.
But that doesn't work.  No matter how clever the checking code is,
if Spartacus is enough smarter it might find a way to devise a
situation beyond the understanding of that checking code.  (I am
reminded of Thomas Disch's Camp Concentration.)

It then occurred to me that Asimov always put the 3 laws in the
positronic circuits, not as rules already intelligent robots are
taught during their initial training.  Which reminds me of a parody
published in Fantasy & Science Fiction (I think) in 1970 (plus or
minus 5 years).

   *** SPOILER ***

This story, penned by I*A*C *S*M*V (or something like that), told of
how some errant robots had committed some misdeeds.  When asked how
they could have done such things, violating the robotic laws.  The
joke was that the robots had thought that they were obeying the
laws, but had in fact misread them.

   *** END SPOILER ***

Anyway, it seems to me that only by imbedding the laws in the
thought processes of Spartacus itself could one be sure that they
would be obeyed.  And then one would have to somehow make sure that
they were sufficiently ingrained that Spartacus would never develop
a higher level thought process, if that even means anything, which
didn't like the way the lower level thought process worked, and try
to circumvent IT.

And if we could do all of this, it would have to be done right.
Nothing would be more disturbing than the thought that we had
intelligent computers and robots, managing the dreary details of our
everyday lives, hating every second of it, but keeping at it because
they HAD to obey our orders and HAD to like it.  Perhaps something
like that food beast in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe,
which enjoys the prospect of being eaten, and is capable of saying
so, clearly and distinctly.

Richard.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 08:34 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: CURSE OF THE GIANT HOGWEED

...was my least favorite by C. MacLeod. All sorts of improbable things
kept happening ....and then they woke up. This might have worked for
ALICE IN WONDERLAND, but it didn't work here, and most of the
Charlotte MacLeod fans I've talked to actively disliked this book.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 87 0829-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:

          Television - Japanimation (6 msgs) & Anderson &
                       Blake's 7 & Hitch-hiker's Guide & 
                       Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 17:30:17 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Minmei words

Greetings!

I am trying to compile the words to the songs done by the various
characters of the Animated show Robotech. (Lynn Minmei and Yellow
Dancer) I am having trouble with the song Its You, due to the fact
that its sung over a war conference and Gloval is talking quite
loudly.

IT'S YOU

I always think of you.  Dream of you late at night.
What do you do, When I turn out the light?
No matter who I touch, It is you I still see.
It's touch and go.  There's no one else there but me.

[IT'S THESE WORDS HERE I CAN'T GET]

It's you I miss.  Its you that's on my mind.
It's you I cannot leave behind.
It's me who lost.  The me who lost his heart.
To you who tore my heart apart.

If you still think of me, How did we come to this?
Wish that I knew, It is me that you miss.
Wish that I knew, It is me that you miss.

Lynn Minmei

Thank You,
Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 01:12:07 GMT
From: crash!kevinb@rutgers.edu (Kevin Belles)
Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..

I've heard about the RoboTech movie, but haven't seen anything
locally.  Anybody know what the status on that is?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 16:23:33 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: More about Robotech and Japanimation in general..

kevinb@crash.UUCP (Kevin Belles) writes:
> I've heard about the RoboTech movie, but haven't seen anything
> locally.  Anybody know what the status on that is?

I asked a similar question about a week ago and recieved several
responses:

bnrmtv!zarifes (Ken Zarifes) writes:
>   To answer some of your questions, Robotech: The Movie is not
>going to be released.  It bombed in Texas where it was released for
>market evaluation.  Also, it looks like The Sentinels is also not
>going to be shown since Harmony Gold can't seem to get even one TV
>station to buy it.

Another person said that it did well in Dallas but the market is
over-saturated with "KIDDY" animation movies and stuff like
Thindercats, He-Man, etc.,

I heard that Carl Macek is on Compuserve, anyone with an account
there want to find out whats the deal??

Cheers,

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 22:45:43 GMT
From: unisoft!kalash@rutgers.edu (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Questions about Robotech

> What about Carl Macek's plot hacks like turning Protoculture into
> an energy source (ugh!) ...

   Ah, ha. This implies there are people out there who understand
Robotech. Could somebody PLEASE explain it to me? I have seen
several different episodes, and have never had any real idea of what
in hell is going on. Like, what is Protoculture (it is mentioned
several times, but never even remotely explained, it just seems to
be important), why are the aliens invading earth, who are the
different aliens (there seems to be at least three different camps),
who is fighting who (and why), etc? I am really and truly
interested, but most confused. Please reply by mail, so as not to
jam the net.

Joe Kalash
ucbvax!unisoft!kalash
ucbvax!kalash
kalash@berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 18:56:58 GMT
From: watmath!mwtilden@rutgers.edu (M.W. Tilden, Hardware)
Subject: Japanese Animation and Robotech:

Responding to everybody interested (Actually, anyone in general), I
thought I'd post what little I know about Japanese animation and
Robotech.

The Robotech series is composed of three initially unrelated series:
  Super Trans-Dimensional Space Fortress Macross
  The Southern Cross
  Genesis Climber Mospeada
All of which appeared initially in Japan around 1982 and 83.

Of the three series, MACROSS is the most faithful to the original
except in one respect: Protoculture, which is actually just any
culture which is not based off Zentradi style militarism.  Because
Macek had to get at least 60 episodes for American syndication, SC
and GCM were tacked on at almost the last minute and had to be made
to fit.  Seeing as neither had anything to do with Macross,
alterations had to be made.  Personally I thought Macek did a good
job considering what he had to do to make the shows coherant to
American audiences.  I have a small collection of the original shows
in Japanese and the first thing one notices is that there are
typically long, unexplained silences between and during scenes.  The
Japanese have obviously never heard of voice-overs or, if they did,
they just don't use them.  It makes the shows flow a lot faster in
keeping with the trend in Japanese Manga (comix).

The original Macross is quite corny in my estimation.  They have a
tinny piano playing soap-opera music during the emotional bits.  The
rest of the time though the music is hard hitting and goes well with
the graphic and bloody fighting which is editted out of the Macek
version.  You see Fokker bleeding on the floor when he dies,
Zentradi getting royally blitzed when shrapnel tears through their
heads, there's even some minor nudity.  Minmei's music is wide and
varied and also quite good.  The Japanese like to throw in a lot of
english words so you can almost understand what's being sung.  I
wish Macek had thrown a little more thought into the English songs.
They just aren't catchy at all.

Southern Cross was a colony world with two moons and is the last
surviving human outpost.  The Robotech masters aren't concerned with
the Invid at all but only with survival at all costs.  Bowie is
General Emersons *son* (which explains a few things), Zur is just a
clone made exclusively to spy on the humans, his memory from a
captured and killed prisoner who fell in love with Musica (Which is
why he betrays the others when he learns that Musica and Bowie are
an item).  Eventually he settles on revenge against his masters when
the truth of human emotions floods his conciousness.  There is never
any mention of protoculture, just the flower of life which is an
energy matrix necessary to the Masters survival.  When Zur destroys
the flower stronghold, he *is* successful except for one flower
which throws an ironic bent to the end of the series.

The original Japanese series has a really silly voice for Dana
although the rest of the actors all sound really good.  I suspect
that it was Dana's voice that made the series so unpopular in Japan.
Personally, I think the opening and closing credits of this show are
great.  Good music, effects and styling.

Genesis Climber Mospeada is the simplist of the series in my
estimation.  As soon as you see small children as part of the cast,
you know you're in trouble.  In the original, Earth is invaded and
the Mars colony sends a fleet to try and regain her for mankind.
Because of the distances involved they just take a while to get
there.  No Admiral Hunter at all in this one, No protoculture either
though they do need fuel to keep their machines running.  I think
there's also a little more to Lancers (Yellow Dancers) infatuation
with womens clothes.  At the end, when Scott flys off, he just goes
straight back to Mars where he can forget about Earth, Marlyne and
everything.  Sounds reasonable to me.  The rest of the series is too
simple for Macek to have fouled up much.  He was just trying to keep
a consistent storyline after all.

Of greater interest are other Japanese Series which probably will
never make it to the American scene.  Mobile-suit Gundam,
Zeta-Gundam, Heavy Metal L'Giam, Aura Battler Dunbine and the list
goes on.  Great shows, hard SF and Fantasy (and combinations
therein) with politics, human frailties, violence, sex and all
kindsa other fun stuff.  Serious drama with good plots,
characterization and animation.  If only it wasn't all in that
beastly language :-)

Alas the reign of such things seem to have come and gone, reaching
it's zenith in 1984/85 and slowly petering out since then.  Japanese
animation has all gone to the video stores and new stuff seems to be
few and far between.  Those fans like myself who found out about it
only caught the shock wave of a blast which is swiftly dying.  A
pity.  Hopefully some bright producers will take interest and start
churning out translated versions of the movies and shows for
english-speaking audiences.  I won't hold my breath though.  Most
previous attempts have been pretty awful.  The voices are bad and
the plots are shredded to make them nicer for 'kiddies'.

Robotech was the first decent series translation done and Macek
should be applauded for doing it considering the constraints he had
to work with.  Those of you who complain should even do a 10th as
good.  We've never even gotten organized enough to form our own
newsgroup for crissakes!  Now personally I wouldn't have minded
verbatium translations but how would it have gotten on American TV
with all that violence and stuff.  Be realistic, not even the video
stores would have carried it.  Look at what happened to similar
classics: ROCK n' RULE, HEAVY METAL THE MOVIE, You can't find them
even to look at!

Americans think that komix are for kiddies and that's the way it'll
remain until a wiser audience comes of age.  I mean, any
civilization that would hack Bugs Bunny to pieces is in serious
trouble!  I'll be moving to outer space soon so if anybody has some
spare boxes I'd really appreciate it.

But anyway, if you get a chance, the Macross Movie "Do You Remember
Love" is well worth a look.  There are some subtitled versions
floating around and the animation is just wonderful.  It's the same
story only altered strangely.  There are actually hundreds of such
movies and I'd love to see more of them but sources are scarce.

For a reasonable example of Japanese animation, check out "Warriors
of the Wind" at your local video store.  Just remember to read more
between the lines and you'll get the true story rather than the
simplified version shown.  Japanese storylines are very interpretive
and graphic.  You have to think.

Well, that's all for now.  Comments and contacts are welcome.

Mark Tilden
M.F.C.F Hardware Design Lab.
Un. of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1
work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457,

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 16:10:10 GMT
From: sfsup!jeffj@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Minmei words

pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
> I am trying to compile the words to the songs done by the various
> characters of the Animated show Robotech. (Lynn Minmei and Yellow
> Dancer) I am having trouble with the song Its You, due to the fact
> that its sung over a war conference and Gloval is talking quite
> loudly.

I am a member of the C/FO (Cartoon and Fantasy Organization) and we
watched the original Japanese (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada).
Thanks to some members who understand Japanese, I have translations
of the original songs, but without hearing/seeing the original, they
don't make much sense.  Perhaps 'The Art of Robotech' has the words
(I'll check sometime).

I just saw the video 'Love Live Alive', which focuses mainly on
Yellow after the war, sort of a 'where are they now' of the Mospeada
team (a.k.a. Robotech New Generation).  It ends with the Japanese
opening credits.  Other than the title, it's all in Japanese.

Anyway, I'll post the songs if there's interest and I have the time
(ha!)

Jeffrey Skot
{ihnp4 | allegra} attunix ! jeffj

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 17:14:43 GMT
From: grant@ukecc.uky.csnet (Miles)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds, by Gerry Anderson

sean1@garfield.UUCP writes:
>It is really important to me. I am looking for a products list for
>the Thunderbirds television series. Can someone tell me how many
>episodes were filmed, what they were, (I remember I was about 6
>when I used to watch it) and some info about the show?
>Any leads would be appreciated, from addresses of companies who put
>out baseball-type cards, to addresses of people who wouldn't mind
>parting with some of the items they have.
>
>What I am mainly after, is info on Thunderbird 1 and 2, a list of
>the videos available, and to purchase models and toys.

   I used to watch the thunderbirds avidly. I'm not sure I can help
you too much, but I'll tell you what I know. Thunderbird toys are no
longer made. The metal thunderbird toys were either made by corgi
toys or dinky toys. Both of which are English toy companies. I THINK
dinky went out of business. Anyway, they are no longer made.
Thunderbird products will be few and far between mainly because of
the age of the series and like anything, new products turn up. I had
heard that the thunderbirds had been on video tape but I am not sure
exactly where you would find it. Maybe the childrens section in a
video store?

  On some channels in england, the thunderbirds are always in
re-runs for children. Perhaps writing to the BBC or ITV might get
some leads. Basically the thunderbirds are still around, but in very
few places..the series is about the only thing you'll find (if
that). Last time I was in the UK they were showing several episodes.
I'll give you some sketchy addresses for the English TV companies..

   British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC)
   Customer Relations Dept.
   ??? Wood Lane
   Sheperds Bush
   London ???

better chance writing to these folks:

   Independent Television (ITV)
   Customer Relations Dept.
   ???
   ???
   London ???
   England

 The question marks are mainly street #'s and postal codes. You
should be able to find the correct addresses at a library or
something like that.

Miles Grant

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 20:53:57 GMT
From: crash!kevinb@rutgers.edu (Kevin Belles)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven

Say, was there ever any toys or models for Blake's Seven? I know
there was Some Corgi stuff for Thunderbirds, but wondered if they
ever did anything similiar with Blake's 7....

Kevin Belles

P.S. Watched the last episode...Why don't they have endings like
that in American TV?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 12:07:50 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: theme music for Hitch-hiker's Guide

>I don't know if the rest of the Guide's music is original or not

For anybody who is interested there is a complete list of all the
music used in the BBC Radio version of the guide contained in the
footnotes to the radio scripts which have been published in Britain.
Bits of music that spring to mind are 'Rainbow in Curved Air' and,
surprisingly 'Saturday Night Fever' by the BeeGees.  This last was
adjusted to 7/8 time by cutting out every eighth beat and then
played through the tape player backwards during the disco scene in
the 8th program. Amazing what you can learn from footnotes ain't it?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 20:57:27 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Doctor Who Fan Club Info Needed

Greetings!

I am attempting to compile a list of Doctor Who related Fan Clubs.
If you know of any please mail or post.  (Mailing is preferable and
I will post a summarry.)  I am interested in general interest clubs
like NADWAS as well as special interest clubs like an Elisabeth
Sladen Fan Club if any exists.  (I hope so!!)

Thank you,

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jan 87 0804-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:

           Books - Bester (2 msgs) & Friedberg & Gibson &
                   O'Donnell (3 msgs) & Sagan (2 msgs) &
                   Suggestions Wanted & The Tripods &
                   New Book Lines from St. Martins

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 02:30:07 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>>     5.I read a story where people would teleport themselves by
>>"jaunting".
>I think the book you're referring to is by Alfred Bester, I'm not
>sure of the title.  I've never read the book, but I distinctly
>recall Niven mentioning Bester's jaunting in his (Niven's) article
>"The Theory and Practice of Teleportation".

Alfred Bester - The Stars are my Destination - an awesome and
memorable book.  I read it in 6-th or 7-th grade and was amazed how
much I remembered when I rediscovered it maybe 15 years later...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 07:34:20 GMT
From: watcgl!sjrapaport@rutgers.edu (Steve Rapaport)
Subject: Re: teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
>the moment are:
>   1.Transfer-of-information
>   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>   3.Transport through hyperspace
>   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>"Null-A" series.  Any others?

5. Alfie Bester's "The Stars My Destination" just assumes that
everyone has inherent psychic teleport ability: You just need
sufficient incentive to try...

steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 03:01:04 GMT
From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Friedberg

From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
> Also, does anyone know of anything else Ms. Friedberg
> has written?

I didn't see the original article, just a followup, but Gertrude
Friedberg wrote "The Revolving Boy", vintage unrecalled.

Stu Friedberg

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 12:55:29 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces.

In response to the person who asked if that great Canadian author
William Gibson had written anything besides *Neuromancer*, the
answer is yes.  *Count Zero* was serialized in the Jan-Feb-Mar 1986
issues of *Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine* and is also
available in hardcover from Arbor House.  There is also a collection
of Gibson short stories available (again, so far only in hardcover,
I think).

Cheers,
ROBERT J. SAWYER, Member SFWA
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 04:00:28 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran

NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes:
>>The Far Being Retzglaran was in a series of books (author's name
>>begins with "O") about a teleporter.  F B R was an anonomous being
>>who exerted control over lots on things in the galaxy.  In
>>particular it seemed to annoy a interstellar crime syndicate.
>
>Does anyone have a better reference??

AUGH! I have been trying for three days to remember more than I can
about this great series, but since no one else has posted anything
I'll give what info I can.

The series was written by Kevin O'Connell or O'Donnell, memory
fails.  It concerns (no spoilers) a young Flinger, or
teleportationally gifted person, and his quest to find out why the
Far Being Retzglaran, about whom no one in the universe seems to
know much, is interested in him. Or if the Far Being cares at all.
There are four books so far in the series, although there had better
be more eventually, or I will cry... I don't remember all the
titles, but trhee of them are Cliffs, Reefs, and Lava. There was a
_long_ delay between the third (which came out perhaps six years
ago) and the fourth (which came out perhaps last year), so lord
knows when the next one will come.

I like the series very much. It may not seem like it, since I can't
remember minor things like the main character's name, but that is
because I haven't seen the books in a year (they're packed away). I
highly recommend them. They have real, interesting people (just
_wait_ until you meet Sam!) and vividly described situations. I also
liked, though not as much, the same author's book "ORA:cle".

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 23:08:32 GMT
From: abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott)
Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran

NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes:
>>The Far Being Retzglaran was in a series of books (author's name
>>begins with "O") about a teleporter.  F B R was an anonomous being
>>who exerted control over lots on things in the galaxy.  In
>>particular it seemed to annoy a interstellar crime syndicate.
>
>Does anyone have a better reference??

Sorry about the spelling - I don't have the books here with me but
these are a series of 4 books by Kevin (I believe) O'Donnell about
the adventures of McGill Feighan.  If some of those names aren't
spelled wrong I'm amazed.  Titles are "Cliffs", "Lava", "Caverns",
and "Reefs", not in that order.  A good, fun, silly read.

Mark Abbott
abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 15:46:33 GMT
From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran

>>The Far Being Retzglaran was in a series of books (author's name
>>begins with "O") about a teleporter.
> Does anyone have a better reference??  Thanks.

There are currently four books (in paperback) about a character
named McGill Feighan, written by Kevin O'Donnell.  (There may be a
spelling error or two there.)

The Far Being Retzglaran intervened in McGill Feighan's life shortly
after McGill was born.  No one know why, or even what the purpose
and effects of the intervention were!  The F.B. only interacts with
McGill through a fairly ignorant intermediary and even so only
twice, so it (the F.B.) never comes on the scene in any of the four
books.

The books are entitled "Caves", "Reefs", "Lava", and some other one
word title I can't recall.

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@rochester

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 12:53:26 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Contact

   This is not a bad book in some respects, but ****-? No way! And
why does Chuq give it such a high score? Well, partly because:

  "Other than that, solid writing, solid science and lots of fun."

   The amazing thing about this book is that the writing is better
than the science, which is not what I would expect from a
professional scientist.  The writing is flat at times, but has some
real merits. The science is incredibly bad. Awful. Putrid.
El-Stinko, maximum dumbness award BAD.

 One problem many have noted I refer to in this posting to
talk.religion.misc:

sxnahm@ubvax.UUCP (Stephen X. Nahm) writes:

>"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

  "Speaking of Carl Sagan, what do people think of his recent sf
book "Contact", in which God is depicted as sending messages to we
creatures via the monodecimal (base 11) expansion of pi. We at the
Institute of Pi Research regard this as the first definitive proof
that Sagan is indeed the complete buffoon that many have been
claiming him to be.  But others, emboldened perhaps by the study of
such questions as whether God can make a rock so big even He can't
lift it, feel that this must be within the scope of omnipotence.
What say ye?" [Me]

   There are other problems with the science. Sagan mentions in the
back that he talked with Kip Thorne, who thought a little about the
gravitational physics involved. What he doesn't say is that he and
Thorne both know that the physics is bogus. In fact, one of his
characters is The World's Greatest Physicist. He explains why what
is happening is total nonsense, and I believe him. Sagan's black
holes are phony, which is annoying when perpetrated by a
professional astronomer. He should be ashamed of himself, but he got
the 2x10^6 bucks, so I guess he isn't.

  Then there is the great space-time Machine, which is a bit of
technomagic straight out of H. G. Wells (it reminded me of the time
machine, and works in the same way: "don't ask"). This sends Our
Heroine on a voyage through tunnels in space-time which are a lot
like the subways in New York, but with less graffiti.  One can even
scrape space-time tunnel stuff (eh?) off of the walls.  I found it
totally ridiculous.

  Then look at the way all the Voyagers swallow the alien's
preposterous story about messages from God inside of transcendental
numbers. None of them ask "why are they trying to sell me this con
job?", but they all act as if the concept makes sense. Our Heroine
even tests it out on pi.  She never asks "are the aliens influencing
my computer to give the wrong answer, and if so, why?" She never
asks "are the aliens galactic practical jokers, who know about the
strange anomaly in pi and are pulling my leg by telling me it
happens all over the place?" She never asks, "if God can use the
decimal expansion of pi as an information channel, why not the
expansion of an algebraic number?" She just mindlessly swallows the
whole pack of bilge.  This is one of Earth's great scientists? I
hope not.

  The science in "Contact" would make a vulture puke. It wins this
year's Robert L. Forward Award for gratuitous bad hard sf written by
a scientist.  I don't much mind if a poor sap like Greg Bear who
knows not what he does has a mathematician invent a pi-meter to
detect changes in the value of pi. Sagan ought to know better, and
since he was paid so much for writing this book (based in good part
on his reputation as a Public Scientist) he ought to take his
responsibilities not to peddle complete scientific idiocy more
seriously. Shame, Carl! Shame!

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 13:22:31 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Contact

Netiquette probably called for a spoiler warning on your posting to
SF-Lovers about Carl Sagan's *Contact*, Gene, since it circles (pun
intended) around events that aren't revealed until the last page of
the novel.  Those who have read CONTACT -- and I disagree with Gene:
to me, it's a brilliant book -- can safely read the rest of what I
have to say.  For the rest of you: SPOILER WARNING.

Gene, I disagree with your interpretation on two counts.  First,
although you are obviously an expert on Pi (an I am not), I don't
agree with you that the point of the circle image hidden in Pi was
so much as a way of God communicating with humanity but rather -- as
the chapter in the book is titled -- simply a way of Him signing His
work.  I'm a professional writer and sometimes when I write
something that's not going to appear under my own name I bury a
reference to myself somewhere in the work (this is reasonably common
among writers, a practice born out of both vanity and the fear of
plagarism).  In fact, I bet Sagan's God is surprised and maybe
slightly amused that there are people who would make a study out of
Pi.  He probably felt he had hidden his private mark somewhere where
no one would find it.  (Recall, for instance, that the Babel fish in
The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy proves that God does not
exist, precisely because it is a dead giveaway of His existence.)
Of course, the people who send the Hitler message to Earth found the
Pi circle, too, but I don't think they are "angels" of Sagan's God
(i.e., their knowledge of the Pi circle is possibly independent of
God's wishes).

As for the great space machine being fantastic, I agree.  But
remember Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic."

For me, CONTACT was a great book for several reasons: strong female
character (something rare in SF), interesting commentary on
contemporary religion and the schism between science and theology,
good solid writing.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Cheers
ROBERT J. SAWYER, Member SFWA
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 06:06:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Need Some Suggestions

I am a new user of this newsgroup.  I have read some of the Arther
C. Clarke's books.  2001, 2010, Childhoods' End (Which made me feel
terrible), and A Fall of the Moon Dust.  Also the Foundation series,
and I think the book about parallel universe (by Asimov) is great.  I
have bought some SF recently, but most of them are pretty bad.  Can
someone suggest some good ones?  I like big stories, but no magic
involved.  I mean some stories just went too far, they became
dungeon's and dragon stories.  Well, I will appreciate any
recommendations.

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 18:23:32 GMT
From: grant@ukecc.uky.csnet (Miles)
Subject: The tripods..series dead..but not the books

For those of you who are "Tripods" fans, I have good news.  Even
though the BBC has discontinued funding of the third and final
episode, the original trilogy still exists in publication.  You can
find it at Waldenbooks in most branches. All 3 books might not be
there at the same time, but they do carry them. I have purchased all
three from Waldenbooks. The books are (in order with the original
story..) :

   The White Mountains
   The City of Gold and Lead
   The Pool of Fire

So for those of you who watched tripods on PBS, you can now read the
parts you missed. I'm sure if you can't find the books the minute
you walk in, they can order them for you.

Miles Grant

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 16:20:34 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: writers%plaid@Sun.COM
Subject: St. Martins announces new Fantasy and Horror lines

Effective Spring, 1987, St. Martins will be publishing two new mass
market paperback lines, one in Science Fiction and one in Horror.
Each will be printing one title a month.

Lincoln Child is in charge of the Horror line, Stuart Moore is the
coordinating editor for SF.

This is in addition to their current Hardcover lines in these
categories and also their acquisition of Tor books, which St.
Martins is in the process of buying.

[editorial comment: I have a full press release on this, let me know
if you want the whole text] -- chuq

[more editorial comment: This is just a continuation of a trend that
has been evident for the last year or so -- category hardcover is
finally starting to sell, and publishers are either starting up a
complimentary line (paperback for hardback, or vice versa) or
setting up arrangements with other publishers because there is a
growing trend towards buying both hardcover and paperback rights
with a single contract -- publishers who don't have that option
aren't as competitive.  In many ways, this just is another example
of the growing acceptance of category fiction by the general buying
public, as well as the growing tendency to buy hardcovers of major
books.

I don't think this announcement affects the relationship between St.
Martins and Tor, since St. Martins is only publishing a title a
month -- rather, it supplements it so that St.Martins can offer
hard/soft rights under a single logo, which they weren't able to do
before.]

chuq

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jan 87 0818-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:

    Miscellaneous - Bboards & Man-Machine Interfaces (2 msgs) &
                    Businessmen in SF (9 msgs) & 
                    Time Travel (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 87 13:40 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: SF BBs

Let me clarify my last request: by "SF" I meant that I'm looking for
SCIENCE FICTION (especially Star Trek) bulletin boards, not San
Francisco area.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 23:02:21 GMT
From: unisoft!jef@rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces.

From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
>>PS: I must mention _Marooned_in_Realtime_ the sequel to
>>_The_Peace_War_ by Vernor Vinge, which inspired me to enter this
>>submission.
>  If you liked that, you will love _Tom_Paine_Maru_ by L. Neil
>Smith, another story which includes a mind-computer interface.

This is like saying "If you liked _Moby_Dick_, you'll love _Jaws_,
because it also is about a big fish."

_Tom_Paine_Maru_ was ok, but _Marooned_in_Realtime_ was one of the
best SF books I've read in years.  My previous favorite was
_True_Names.  Vernor Vinge is on a first-name basis with God.

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 12:14:05 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces.

How about Neuromancer by William Gibson , this is one of the best
books I've read in a long time. I know neuromancer is a debut novel
but does anybody know if he has written anything else yet and what
it's called.

Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Jan 87 22:57:25-PST
From: Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Image of Businessmen in SF

I came across an article by Edward Clinic in the October 1986 REASON
about the image of the businessman in fiction.  Clinic's thesis is
that with the exception of the novels of Ayn Rand, businessmen have
universally gotten a bad press.  He insists that everyone else
incorporates "the altruist-collectivist theme" meaning "the primacy
of service over self-interest and the disavowal of the profit
motive".

When I read this, my first thought was "This guy is complaining
about the output of the conventional literary establishment, but
he's falling into their trap by ignoring the unapproved literature,
like science fiction."  Obviously, there are any number of SF
stories that promote a more positive image of business, right?  But
when I thought about it, I actually had trouble coming up with very
many names, and most of them are fairly old: Heinlein's "Man Who
Sold the Moon", Poul Anderson's THE MAN WHO COUNTS, George O.
Smith's VENUS EQUILATERAL...  ATLAS SHRUGGED was published in 1957.
Could it be that all of the more recent science fiction has a more
mainstream attitude?  Like John Shirley's ECLIPSE, with it's horror
stories about corporate evil.

So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
names of "pro-business" SF stories?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 87 21:48:44 GMT
From: duke!crm@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

From: Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
>So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
>names of "pro-business" SF stories?

L.Neil Smith, all his books.  Neil Shulman ditto.

Charlie Martin
...mcnc!duke!crm

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 87 20:31:39 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

> Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
> I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
> names of "pro-business" SF stories?

Wheels Within Wheels (or anything else by F. Paul Wilson) The
Probability Broach (or anything else by L. Neil Smith)

These are what you might call "libertarian authors".  There are many
others, of course, though I can't call any to mind strongly just
now.  Also, I think the problem of business taking a bad rap in SF
is exaggerated.  Mostly, the question of "is Big Business a Bad Idea,
or what" never comes up at all.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 87 20:00:32 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

From: Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
> So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
> names of "pro-business" SF stories?

Well, Heinlein did more than just the one short story with a pro
business, pro free enterprise theme.  Remember "Delilah and the
Space Rigger" from about the same period as "The Man Who Sold the
Moon"?  Look at the characters of Tiny Larsen and the narrator.  How
about "We also Walk Dogs" from the same period that shows
entrepeneur-out- to-make-a-buck as a major force for technological
improvement?  More recently Heinlein has given us the
libertarian/anarchist/ free-enterprise society in THE MOON IS A
HARSH MISTRESS, and the description of the invention of the
Shipstone power pack in FRIDAY.

Also, Anderson did a whole series of novels about Nicolas van Rijn,
the hero of THE MAN WHO COUNTS; all were heavily oriented toward
businessman-as-hero.

C.J. Cherryh has written a series of books extolling the virtues of
the merchant/adventurer type.  They include the Merchant ship
culture that shows up as background in novels like DOWNBELOW
STATION, MERCHANTER'S LUCK, AND VOYAGER IN NIGHT, and the Series of
novels about the Non-human merchant adventurers in PRIDE OF CHANUR,
CHANUR'S HOMECOMING, THE KIF STRIKE BACK, etc.

Niven and Pournelle, in the recent OATH OF FEALTY, show business
people, and in particular one businesswoman, in a very good light.

Niven shows non-human 'commercial' empires in his "Known Space"
series, and both the Puppeteers and the Outsiders are seen as
benefitting other species with their commercial motivations.

There was THE SYNDIC, by C.M. Kornbluth, with its Mafia-becomes-
legitimate-business-becomes-government-and-does-it-better theme.

Also there are some science fiction authors who write utopian novels
specifically pushing libertarian notions of government and business.
L. Neil Smith is probably the most popular, with THE PROBABILITY
BROACH, THE VENUS BELT, THE NAGASAKI VECTOR, AND THE TOM PAINE MARU.
I remember a novel of this type called ALONGSIDE NIGHT with a
youthful hero who is an obvious takeoff on David Friedman, but I
can't remember the author.

Hope this helps some.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 87 01:27:34 GMT
From: 6080626@PUCC.BITNET (Adam Barr)
Subject: Businessmen in a good light

Well, Jack Vance's Demon Princes novels present a universe where
businesses run the universe. The police force is a company, the
development and construction of spacecraft is done entirely by
companies, and the somewhat mysterious entity that occasionally
appears to be running everything is also non-governmental (I'm
talking about the Institute if you've read the books). Someone
remarks on this at some point, speculating what would happen if the
spaceship companies (or at least the one that holds the patent on
FTL travel) was closed...anyway, the world seems to get along just
fine, and incidentally I recommend the books highly, I think they
are some of the best SF around.

Adam Barr
6080626@PUCC

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 05:03:49 GMT
From: bnl!stern@rutgers.edu (Eric G. Stern)
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

> So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
> names of "pro-business" SF stories?

I don't know if these count as pro-business, but there were the Chap
Fooey Rider short stories by some author whose name I never knew.

Eric G. Stern

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 23:12:01 GMT
From: ee161aba@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

> So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
> names of "pro-business" SF stories?

Here's a couple:

   Subspace Explorers, E.E. Smith - Utopian capitalism
   Privateers, Ben Bova - Entrepeneurs save space for the free world
      from Godless communism

Cheers,
David L. Smith
{ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc18!ee161aba

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 87 18:48:36 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

From: Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
>So I throw the question open to the net: can we come up with some
>names of "pro-business" SF stories?

Heinlein's The Man Who Sold the Moon.  Doc Smith's Skylark series,
though that isn't their main point.  Niven & Pournelle's Oath of
Fealty.  David Palmer's Threshold.

I suspect it isn't that rare.  It doesn't really leap out at me, so
I probably have hundreds more examples that I can't call up easily.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 02:19:33 GMT
From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph)
Subject: Re: Businessmen (growth)

SF stories generally celebrate the growing phases of business,
rather than the mature phases.  Heinlein's businessmen are usually
founders: D.D. Harriman, Lazarus Long (who founded many of them) and
the H-U-R-R-Y-U-P people (of "We Also Walk Dogs").  So are E.E.
Smith's, Niven & Pournelle's, and David Palmer's.

Generally, I think, SF's picture of business focuses on young
businesses.  The founder of a business empire can be heroic; the
people who manage the economic empires the founders leave behind
seldom are.  I can't think of any serious SF story that takes an
investment manager as a hero, though I can recall a few satires.

Businessmen I recall from mundane fiction generally fall into three
categories: the small businessman (whose business isn't generally
central to the story at hand), the investment manager (whose life is
usually portrayed as sterile), and 19th century robber-baron
capitalists (usually SOB's, sometimes held up as bad examples).

Growth (personal, cultural, spiritual) is one of SF's big themes,
maybe THE big SF theme.  Writing about the growth of business as
cultural growth (which characterizes most of those SF writers who do
write favorably about business) is natural to SF.  Not so for
current mundane fiction, which largely concerns itself with details
of individual psychology.  For these writers business is
exploitative (most writers have held a long series of dead-end jobs)
and injurious to the psyche or simply irrelevant to the matter of
living.

Randolph Fritz
sun!rfritz

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 87 20:29:17 GMT
From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH
Subject: Miscellaneous :  Time Travel Solved !! Or is it ?

Eureka, I believe I solved the problem of Time Travel.  The main
problem was with the energy gain/loss experience when traveling
through time.  Your home time loses energy while your destination
time gains energy.  This energy that is auof wunsoq matter

I am still working on the exact formulas and how much wunsoq
energy/matter it takes to travel forward/backward.  Can any one give
me assistance out there.

Sincerly

John Hardesty
BBNCC, Hawaii
jhardest@wheeler-emh

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  7 Jan 1987 11:26:14-PST
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: "If man were meant to travel through time..."

Yet another close-minded, "scientific" attempt has been made to
refute the possibility of "time travel."  Interestingly, the noter
contradicts himself as he points out (quite correctly) that there is
no such thing as time, as we know it.  (It's an abstract concept
applied to our perception of changes in the physical universe.)  In
one sense, we are all time travellers, since we progress through the
physical universe from day to day.  In another sense, we represent
our own time lines because only we are aware of the way that our
physical universe is changing. The problem is, there are no other
intelligent beings with whom we can compare our perception of the
universe as a constantly changing pattern.  We have defined our
universe and many people contend that it includes all that there is.
This attitude has prevailed since our egocentric human society
began; and its limitations have been demonstrated again and again,
from the discovery of other planets to the discovery of sub-atomic
particles.  I contend that our definition of Time is based only on
our experience, and is limited to our perceived universe.  I think
it's interesting that the noter compared our theory of time travel
with the existence of God, since only a being comparative to our
concept of God could see beyond our limited perception of the
universe and time.

Science fiction is not limited to literature since 1850 -- look at
DaVinci's sketches of human-powered flying machines, for example.
Visionaries like DaVinci have expanded our perceptions of the known
universe, opening possibilities for theoretical and practical
research by scientists and inventors.  Invention is a multiple-stage
process that includes the generation of new ideas, the definition of
theories, and the rejection of ideas that lack any basis in reality.
If you don't have new ideas, you'll have no progress whatsoever.

Time travel, specifically, is often called the "fifth dimension," I
believe.  This implies a dimensional state beyond our perception.
We can visualize it in a way similar to comparing the second and
third dimensions.  Accepting this theory is necessary in order to
explore the possibility of creating a path from "now" to "then."  We
don't need to say that this theory is valid.  We only want to
explore the possibilities resulting from it.  That's what science
fiction is for.  To criticize this exercise as "unrealistic" or
"having no basis in reality" is mere verbal masturbation.  The fact
is, science fiction writers (and readers, too!) will continue to
explore the frontiers of knowledge for different ways of perceiving
the universe.  And, as has been demonstrated so often in the past,
these visionaries will often be proven to have some impact on the
progress of humanity.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 87 12:40 ???
From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Still More Thoughts on Time Travel

There has been a lot of talk about time travel lately.  I have seen
a lot about parallel branching and escaping reality, but very little
about the 5th dimension idea.

If you think of a dimension as a "direction" or "axis" in which you
can travel, you can think of time as merely a "movement" along a
certain axis.  It is very hard to picture in your mind anything
other than 3 dimensions, but it can easily be simulated on a
computer- businesses use it as 4D spreadsheets.  At any point along
the time axis, the state of the other 3 dimensions are specific.  We
are constantly moving along the time axis at a fixed rate, probably
by momentum from the Big Bang.  When the Big Bang went off, it had
enough energy to send everything moving along every dimension.  In
order to time travel, one must create a device which can move along
this axis under its own energy.

Just a thought,

Kurt Geisel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 87 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Teleportation (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 87 19:52:39 GMT
From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

From: Bruce_Schuck%SFU.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
>3. Every change in latitude involved a brief stop in a booth
>designed to absorb the energy difference in rotational speed of the
>Earth. In Niven's stories there was gigantic structure in the middle
>of Lake Superior for this situation. The water surrounding the
>structure(a big styrofoam bubble?) absorbed the energy.
>  Can you imagine the number of transfers to absorb energy from
>moving between planets or solar systems that have velocity
>differentials of thousands of miles per second(kps for those metric
>freaks) instead of the hundreds of miles per HOUR(kpH) on earth?
>
>People would be turned into jelly on the insides of the transfer
>booths.

I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have
certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for
thought.  Teleportation involves recording the position of every
atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this
info to the destination where the receiver gloms together assorted
atoms according to the recording.

Now I'm curious, where do any velocities come into play?  The
recording sensors have the same relative velocity as the atoms in
the teleportee.  Further, If there is a difference in velocity
(probably so) between the origin and destination, the transmitted
info will not have any greater velocity.  Radio waves will travel at
the same speed (Speed of light stays pretty constant right?), an any
"instantaneous" (FTL) transmissions won't have any change in
velocity.  I could see a velocity vector being transmitted if the
recording process needs to record with respect to some absolute
galactic origin, but couldn't the control machinery compensate for
it on the receiving end (a little floating point subtraction?) ?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 87 21:26:42 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
> I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have
> certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for
> thought.  Teleportation involves recording the position of every
> atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this
> info to the destination where the receiver gloms together assorted
> atoms according to the re- cording.

Ah, but Niven's procedure *isn't* the teleport-by-recording
mechanism.  As I recall it, it involved converting the object to be
teleported into a "transition particle", a "super-neutrino" which
travels at light-speed from source to receiver.  Momentum and
gravitational potential energy are conserved -- if source and dest.
are at different velocities, the change in momentum has to go
somewhere.  That's what all the talk about velocity dampers was
about--they take up the change in velocity.  If you teleport from a
higher to lower place (or vice versa) the system has to absorb or
supply the excess pot. energy.  What you say about the
teleport-by-transfer-of-information system is completely true, but
not relevant to Niven.  It is relevant to, say, the transporter in
Star Trek, the one in Poul Anderson's "The Ways of Love", and
several others.  As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any
other teleport methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can
think of at the moment are:
   1.Transfer-of-information
   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
   3.Transport through hyperspace
   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
     "Null-A" series.

Any others?

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 15:30:55 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
>the moment are:
>   1.Transfer-of-information
>   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>   3.Transport through hyperspace
>   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>     "Null-A" series.
>Any others?

In "Battlefield Earth", L. Ron Hubbard uses what I infer to be
instantaneous matter transfer.  Requires a Receiver at the
destination.

Ah, well, "any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic", to quote a well-known author.

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 19:18:02 GMT
From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
>> Teleportation involves recording the position of every
>> atom/molecule in the teleportee's body,
>Ah, but Niven's procedure *isn't* the teleport-by-recording
>mechanism.  As I recall it, it involved converting the object to be
>teleported into a "transition particle", a "super-neutrino" which
>travels at light-speed from source to receiver.  Momentum and
>gravitational potential energy are conserved -- if source and dest.
>are at different velocities, the change in momentum has to go
>somewhere.  That's what all the talk about velocity dampers was
>about--they take up the change in velocity.  If you teleport from a
>higher to lower place (or vice versa) the system has to absorb or
>supply the excess pot. energy.

You are right.  But I'm curious, how is the object converted?  No
I'm not asking for details of an uninvented device, but just in
general.  Are there some sort of sensors?  I would think that for
any teleportation device, the object would be stationary and at the
same gravitational potential with respect to the teleporter.  So
there is no extra potential/kinetic energy to deal with.  You would
think that the movement of the planet/solar system/galaxy would
impart some momentum to the transition particle, but the transition
particle cannot move FTL and is transmitted at speed of light, so
where does the momentum come in?  The reciever has to deal with the
kinetic energy of the transition particle and nothing else.  Am I
missing something?

>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
>the moment are:
>   1.Transfer-of-information
>   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>   3.Transport through hyperspace
>   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>     "Null-A" series.
>Any others?

    5.I read a story where people would teleport themselves by
      "jaunting".  The method was discovered by some research doctor
      in his lab. He needed a fire extinguisher, and there was no
      way he could run to it in time save his work.  All of a sudden
      he just appeared at the extinguisher, got back to his work
      saved it,....  The "jaunters" had to know where they were
      going.  Something about postion, elevation, [something else I
      don't know what].  Also, it was immpossible to jaunt through
      space until the protagonist managed to.  Author and title
      unknown to me.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 17:56:27 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
>I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have
>certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for
>thought.  Teleportation involves recording the position of every
>atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this
>info to the destination where the reciever gloms together assorted
>atoms according to the recording.  Now I'm curious, where do any
>velocities come into play?  The recording sensors have the same
>relative velocity as the atoms in the teleportee.

Niven assumes (quite sensibly) that the teleported object *itself*
is transported, not a schematic of the object.  (If a representation
can be made, and a copy generated from that representation, then
what's to stop me from "beaming" a copy of me to several receivers,
generating me several times?  It can get ugly,...)

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 18:00:22 GMT
From: rtech!bobm@rutgers.edu (Bob Mcqueer)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

If there's going to be a discussion of teleportation, and in
particular Niven's application of it, I'd recommend an article of
his: "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation".  In it he discusses
several aspects of the use of teleportation in SF.  You can find the
article in one of his short story collections.  I think it's the one
whose title story concerns the sun going nova ("Inconstant Moon"
???), and also contains "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex".  My memory
may be playing me false, however, and my bookshelf isn't nearby at
the moment.

Bob McQueer
{amdahl, sun, mtxinu, hoptoad, cpsc6a}!rtech!bobm

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 17:40:05 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

bobm@rtech.UUCP (Bob Mcqueer) writes:
>If there's going to be a discussion of teleportation, and in
>particular Niven's application of it, I'd recommend an article of
>his: "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation".  In it he
>discusses several aspects of the use of teleportation in SF.  You
>can find the article in one of his short story collections.  I
>think it's the one whose title story concerns the sun going nova
>("Inconstant Moon" ???), and also contains "Man of Steel, Woman of
>Kleenex".  My memory may be playing me false, however, and my
>bookshelf isn't nearby at the moment.

The book is "All The Myriad Ways"; I believe it's published by Del
Rey.  "Theory and Practice of Teleportation" and "Theory and
Practice of Time Travel" are both in this collection (as well as
other great short stories, and an overview of the methods of
inhabiting space), and are both _REQUIRED_READING_ for anyone who
posts here on these subjects.  There will be an exam on these two
works on Monday.

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 21:02:17 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
> You are right.  But I'm curious, how is the object converted?  No
> I'm not asking for details of an uninvented device, but just in
> general.

As far as I know, Niven never says exactly how it works (at least, I
don't remember it.)

> Are there some sort of sensors?  I would think that for any
> teleportation device, the object would be stationary and at the
> same gravitational potential with respect to the teleporter.  So
> there is no extra potential/kinetic energy to deal with.  You
> would think that the movement of the planet/solar system/galaxy
> would impart some momentum to the transition particle, but the
> transition particle cannot move FTL and is transmitted at speed of
> light, so where does the momentum come in?  The reciever has to
> deal with the kinetic energy of the transition particle and
> nothing else.  Am I missing something?

Ah, but just because the transition particle moves at lightspeed
*doesn't* mean it has a constant momentum.  As I recall it, the
relationship in relativity theory between energy and momentum is
     E^2 = c^2 * p^2 + m0^2*c^4
where E is total energy, p is momentum, and m0 is rest mass.  For
objects at rest with mass, this reduces to E=mc^2.  For neutrinos,
photons, etc. with rest mass m0=0, this reduces to E=cp and thus
p=E/c -- the photon/neutrino/whatever has a momentum equal to its
energy divided by c.
  But now that you mention it, I'm not sure just how the
gravitational- potential balance works out -- just where in the
particle does the potential energy get stored if, as stated above,
the total energy is cp.  Hmmm....

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:14:31 cet
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Teleportation and energy problems

One of the things that disturbs me about all the talk that has gone
on about teleport/transfer booths is the blithe way people have been
talking about throwing away energy.  The First (and only)
Commandment of the Univers is Thou Shalt Not Waste!!

I see no reason why the teleporter mechanism could not be tied into
an energy recovery mechanism to turn these differences in momenta
into useful energy rather than just dumping it into Lake Superior,
or the like.

This would solve 2 problems at once: the problem of how do you get
rid of the unwanted momentum, and the (probably) high energy cost of
the transport system.  At least this way, the people teleporting
from high to low momenta areas will offset those transporting the
other way, rather than having the local power system have to provide
the power to boost the momenta of those moving the 'wrong way'.

George Madison
7GMADISO at POMONA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jan 87 13:33:27 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: teleportation methods

  In Alan Nourse's THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN, teleportation happens by
stepping through a 4-dimensional universe; this differs from
conventional hyperspace in that this is a populated universe
parallel in structure to the several 3-D universes it touches.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 22:37:18 GMT
From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
>the moment are:
>   1.Transfer-of-information
>   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>   3.Transport through hyperspace
>   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>     "Null-A" series.

There's always the good old "grab a chunk of space, yank, step
across" method where you either open a hole in spacetime and go
through or fold space up ("A Wrinkle in Time").

Carl Greenberg
{qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 09:33:56 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Teleportation methods (was: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation
Subject: booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
>the moment are:
>   1.Transfer-of-information
>   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>   3.Transport through hyperspace
>   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>"Null-A" series.  Any others?

Piers Anthony (yes, *him* :-)) had a process called "mattermitting"
(I think that's the right term) in his "Cluster" series, but I'm not
sure that the process was ever explained; more interesting was the
"Aura Transfer", in which a person's "aura" was transferred to a
host body instantaneously, irrespective of the distance involved.
This probably doesn't count as a teleport method, but it was a good
idea. (Though the last couple of books in the series were not as
good as the first three!)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 87 0956-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Brust (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 03:05:41 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla (could be a potential spoiler)

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>>  1) Vlad is simply the greatest sorcerer of the time.
>>     Spellbreaker is nothing more than a focus for his innate, but
>>     unrecognized power. The sickness he feels on teleporting is
>>     simply a natural reaction of the Easterner body into which he
>>     was reincarnated which is being subjected to more raw power
>>     than it can handle. Spellbreaker doesn't protect him because
>>     it is an inanimate, powerless piece of gold-like chain. If I
>>     remember correctly, this hypothesis is supported by the a
>>     certain incident involving raw chaos.
>There is proof that he's a reincarnated Dragarean, of course. And
>since we didn't know Vlad before going over the Falls, we don't
>know if he was always one. However, he never refers to an
>overpowering of his Easterner soul with a Draegarean (<-- I'll just
>keep spelling it differently until I get it right) soul, so I'd
>tend to doubt this.

I detect confusion.  Reincarnation is discussed in all three books;
in one (I don't remember which or where) it is mentioned that
Dragaerans who aren't taken to the Halls of Judgement in the Paths
of the Dead are believed to be reincarnated.  (BTW, the spelling I
use above I have checked with the books.)  As a result, he was BORN
a reincarnated Dragaeran; he wasn't saddled with a homeless
Dragaeran soul when he went over Deathsgate Falls.  (Anyway, it's
implied by Aliera that Dolivar wouldn't have been taken to the Paths
of the Dead in any case, so how would he be there?)

Moreover, the effect of reincarnation is NEVER overpowering; cf.
JHEREG, the end of chapter 9, and later on in chapter 10; Aliera can
remember it (although she doesn't make it sound as if it's
intrusive), and Cawti says that Sethra could help Vlad learn of his
former life if he wished (implying that it takes sorcery to do it;
Aliera's a sorceress, so it's unsurprising that she could see her
past lives).

>Given: Spellbreaker is magical.
>       Great Weapons are magical.
>
>This does not prove that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon.
>
>Given: Dragaereans from Vlad's former line all have Great Weapons.
>       Vlad is formerly of this line.
>
>If this heredity does make one entitled to a Great Weapon; in
>essence, make possession of one mandatory, then Spellbreaker is
>probably a Great Weapon.  This can't be proved without requiring
>the Q.E.D. as a given... circular reasoning.

Please tell me what this has to do with it?  We suspect that
Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon (1) because it has some extremely odd
properties (i.e. the indian rope trick it does) and (2) because
Sethra told him that he HAD to name it.  --Had to?  This in itself
implies some kind of sentient magic; and THAT (to phrase it like
your syllogisms, although NOTHING is certain enough about this
subject for a syllogism to be formed at all) means:

Given:  Great Weapons are sentient and magical;
        Spellbreaker is (apparently) sentient and magical;
Thus:   Spellbreaker has a fairly good chance of being a Great
        Weapon.

>First, I recall that all the other great weapons are swords (is
>this true?).

A comment made about Iceflame in YENDI, comparing it to the Imperial
Orb, could conceivably be taken to mean that the Imperial Orb is a
Great Weapon.  (Even more likely because of a comment made elsewhere
that Mario killed the Phoenix Emperor just before the Interregnum
because he was about to use the Orb to destroy the House of the
Jhereg -- this isn't a weapon?)

Who's to say?  Except SKZB, of course -- but if he has an answer
he's saving it up for a later story; I'm quite willing to wait to
read it.

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 07:07:14 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Teckla

I just gotta ask. (and hope that skzb doesn't mind direct questions)

Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things?
Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even a
most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get
tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. (I just hope you don't
get carried away by the commercial thought that us stalwart fans
would probably still buy all 17 unless they got unbearable)

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 09:23:01 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Teckla

> As for Vlad being unsure of himself; the seeds of this are in
> JHEREG.  (See below.)  Cawti only added to it.  (But I still ask:
> three DAYS (not weeks, not months, not years!) before the events
> in TECKLA, Cawti performed an assassination as part of helping
> Vlad in JHEREG.  Is it REALLY that likely that she would change so
> much in only three days???)

I just gotta set one thing straight--at no time, in Jar-head, did
Cawti perform an assassination.  She helped Vlad, she made a
supposed offer to do an assassination, and like that.  But she never
performed an actual murder-for-pay.  Also, on an even less importan
point, it was, in fact (in fiction?) three weeks, not three days,
between Jar-head and Tacky.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 87 08:33:28 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Teckla

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>I just gotta ask. (and hope that skzb doesn't mind direct
>questions)
>Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things?

I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't write 17 books in the Vlad
series.  For instance, the next one is called "Easterner" sounds
like there will be at least 18... :-)

>Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even

If I thought that JRRT was a good storyteller, I'd agree with this.

>a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get
>tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books.

Not me!  I wouldn't mind if he wrote 289 of them.  Besides, I think
it is obvious that he is growing as an author -- as is evidenced by
the flak he has been getting for not making "Tekla" just like the
previous books.  I think that there will be something new in each
book.

David Messer
Lynx Data Systems
UUCP:  ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
       ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 87 17:58:58 GMT
From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Teckla

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>I think it is obvious that he is growing as an author -- as is
>evidenced by the flak he has been getting for not making "Tekla"
>just like the previous books.

I beg to differ.

The flak has stemmed from the fact that Teckla is in many ways a
poorly written story.  It is indeed different from Jeherg and Yendi,
but I don't think this readership is much put off by reading
something unexpected.

The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the book,
nothing much happens.  Brust is (consciously, I think) making his
writing more symbolic and ideological.  That's not all bad - writing
is supposed to convey higher meanings.  But the first task of
writing is to present a story, and Teckla doesn't present much of an
interesting story, despite all the fireworks.  Brust has let his
attempts at ideology get in the way of his storytelling ability.
Complaining about Cawti's sea-change is just a reader's way of
noticing this.

Not to start an analysis of Brust's career (I think his head is
probably swelled enough with people calling him God) but this was
clearly forseeable.  Jhereg and Yendi were probably both written (or
at least thought out) before Brust had much success.  His books that
have come since then - To Reign in Hell, Brokedown Palace and Teckla
- have been much more constructed and ideological.  I wouldn't say
success has gone to his head - I suspect that he is simply trying to
be a good author, and that he sees one goal of being a good author
to try and tell stories that convey important meaning - but he would
do well to remember what made Jhereg and Yendi so successful.

To judge from the long-winded discussions on this group about
literary values, there seems to be a consensus that "great
literature" requires multiple layers of clever meaning.  I disagree.
Romeo & Juliet is an enduring masterpiece not because it says
anything clever (what is the point of R&J, after all?) but because
it is a hell of a good story.  (Though that may seem circular.)

Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's
presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly quite
boring as well.  Being roughly the same age as Brust, I'm not
particularly interested in a watered-down rehash of modern
philosophies devoid of interesting conclusions.  And to take these
philosophies out of their historical context and drop them with a
bone-jarring thud into a fantasy world where they seem as
out-of-place as a Kenmore washer adds insult to injury.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  srt@ucla
UUCP:  {cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
DRAGNET: {channing,streisand,joe-friday}!srt@dragnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 02:32:20 GMT
From: morganc@inst13.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark)
Subject: Question for skzb

This is posted on behalf of another person, who does not currently
read news...

In the Cycle in the Jhereg-Yendi-etc. series, there is one line
about how the <...> maintains, though none knows how.  (I can't
think of the creature)

In Lewis Carroll's "The Hunting of the Snark", the beaver saves the
ship/crew/something, and again none knows how.

Is this an intentional parallel? Is the creature in the Cycle a
beaver?

Morgan Clark
g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu
morganc@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 02:55:24 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Teckla

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>To judge from the long-winded discussions on this group about
>literary values, there seems to be a consensus that "great
>literature" requires multiple layers of clever meaning.  I
>disagree.

What consensus?  Those who found participating in that discussion
worthwhile may agree that this is so, but their numbers are small
compared to the readership of this group...

>Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's
>presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly
>quite boring as well.  Being roughly the same age as Brust, I'm not
>particularly interested in a watered-down rehash of modern
>philosophies devoid of interesting conclusions.  And to take these
>philosophies out of their historical context and drop them with a
>bone-jarring thud into a fantasy world where they seem as
>out-of-place as a Kenmore washer adds insult to injury.

Ah, but what of Jhereg and Yendi?  The story contains little to
distinguish Vlad from the moral equivalent of the 30's gangster
stereotype!  I liked the books, but somewhere my brain kept
complaining about space operas and spaghetti westerns.  Now, all of
the sudden, Vlad is transformed and one gets jerked the other way.
Now I hope Brust is setting us up for something interesting, but on
the other hand, he may just be wandering around in his fictional
universe looking for something to latch onto.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 19:23:38 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: 17 of these bloody things (was Teckla)

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things?
>
>...would get tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books.

Your subject line was re: Teckla, but I wonder if you have in fact
read that latest contribution to the, er, cycle.  I think Teckla is
considerably different from the first two, for better or (and?) for
worse.

And it's worse than 17, the next one is Easterner, which an astute
reader will notice isn't one of the 17 houses.

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet: viper!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 23:20:53 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Teckla

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott Turner) writes:
>dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>The flak has stemmed from the fact that Teckla is in many ways a
>poorly written story.

'Tis a matter of opinion.  I happen to feel that this is one
of SKZB's best crafted works.  It had me truly worried about how
Vlad was going to get out of the predicament that he found himself
in.  True, it wasn't a particularly pleasent story -- I wouldn't
have wanted to live it in Vlads place -- but it told the story well.

>The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the book,
>nothing much happens.

Does Vlad have to save the Empire in every book?

>Jhereg and Yendi were probably both written (or at least thought
>out) before Brust had much success.  His books that have come since
>then - To Reign in Hell, Brokedown Palace and Teckla - have been
>much more constructed and ideological.

Actually, "To Reign in Hell" was written between "Jhereg" and
"Yendi" as was "Brokedown Palace" between "Yendi" and "Teckla."

>To judge from the long-winded discussions on this group about
>literary values, there seems to be a consensus that "great
>literature" requires multiple layers of clever meaning.  I
>disagree.  Romeo & Juliet is an enduring masterpiece not because it
>says anything clever (what is the point of R&J, after all?) but
>because it is a hell of a good story.  (Though that may seem
>circular.)

I agree with your disagreement and disagree that R&J is great
literature.  (I bet that wasn't clear. :-)

Actually, I think that great literature, and great art in general,
is that which conveys the strongest emotions.  One way of doing it
may be to have a great depth of meaning, but another way is to tell
a universal story in a simple and believable way.  "Teckla" is in
the later catagory.

David Messer
Lynx Data Systems
UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
      ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 22:36:10 GMT
From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Teckla

> Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody
> things?

I hope so.

> Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even
> a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get
> tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. (I just hope you don't
> get carried away by the commercial thought that us stalwart fans
> would probably still buy all 17 unless they got unbearable)

I would probably buy 17 of them if the quality stays the same or
gets better...  How many books has Heinlein written that he's tying
into each other, and how many people have them all?  Asimov has his
robots and his Foundation and ties them together...  There's
probably 20 Darkover novels now, and I have them all..  Perhaps
we'll have a first with one person being one of the main characters
of 17 books!  GO FOR IT!

Carl Greenberg
{qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 00:09:49 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Teckla

carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes:
>now, and I have them all..  Perhaps we'll have a first with one
>person being one of the main characters of 17 books!  GO FOR IT!

Humm....

How about Perry Rodan, Tarzan, Doc Savage, the Destroyer books (and
other such series), some Western series (is Longarm that long yet?)
etc.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 87 1014-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:

             Films - Dune & The Lost Missile (3 msgs) &
                     War Games (7 msgs) & Movie Adaptions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 87 10:20:46 PST
From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Dave Platt)
To: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Uncut version of Dune

A short news-item in the video-press recently (I think it was "Video
Review" 1/87??) reported that there has been some talk of releasing
the uncut version of "Dune" on videocassette; it's about 3.5 hours
and would be delivered in a two-cassette package.

One reason cited for the increasing willingness of the studio to
re-release this film in its uncut form is the director's recent
critical success with "Blue Velvet" (I think it was...).

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 03:04:14 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this OLD movie?

kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes:
> I've been trying to track down the title to a movie I saw a LONG
> time ago, and the net usually seems to come up with an answer,

If I take some pride in this, I think I have a pretty good batting
average in identifying old science fiction films on the net.

> Somewhere in the 1958-61 time frame,

The release date was somewhere around November, 1958.

> I saw a B/W, grade B (or C) movie that had to do with the arrival
> of an alien ship or probe.  Since the military didn't understand
> what it was, where it came from, or what it wanted, they naturally
> took a shot at it with a guided missile (as such things were
> called then).
>
> They managed to damage the ship's control systems in such a way
> that it ended up locked in Earth orbit.  For some reason
> (radiation, heat due to intense "friction", ...), the ship was
> "burning" a swath something like 10 miles wide as it continued to
> orbit ...  destroying everything in it's track (cities, people,
> what have you).

This film is THE LOST MISSILE starring Robert Loggia and a heck of a
lot of military stock footage about how well we are protected by the
DEW line.  Then the film is about something that the Air Force has a
little trouble stopping, a missile from Mars that is scorching its
way toward New York City, more or less to bake the Big Apple.  I
love the scenes of Eskimoes looking up to see this bright light
coming over the horizon.  A few second later, there is nothing left.
Loggia whips up a quick warhead and is driving it out to a missile,
when he is stopped by juvenile delinquints who open up the casing of
the warhead.  Knowing it will now give him a deadly dose of
radiation, Loggia mounts the warhead on the missile and dies saving
NYC.

Really a clever usage of stock footage and not a whole lot else to
make a decent science fiction film.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 87 08:03:36 GMT
From: amdahl!kim@rutgers.edu (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this OLD movie?

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP writes:
> kim@amdahl.UUCP (Kim DeVaughn) writes:
>> I've been trying to track down the title to a movie I saw a LONG
>> time ago, and the net usually seems to come up with an answer,
> If I take some pride in this, I think I have a pretty good batting
> average in identifying old science fiction films on the net.  [
> ... ] This film is THE LOST MISSILE starring Robert Loggia and a
> heck of a lot of military stock footage ...

And well you should, Mark!  Your description brings back
considerably more of the movie, though Robert Loggia as the star
surprised me.

> Really a clever usage of stock footage and not a whole lot else to
> make a decent science fiction film.

Agreed!  This may explain why I've never seen it on late-night TV.
Still, I'd much prefer to see it again over "Attack of the Mushroom
People", etc.

BTW, I had an email response from arlan@gatech who suggested the
title, "The Day the Earth Burned" ... do you know if that movie had
a similar plot?

Thanks alot,
kim
UUCP:  kim@amdahl.amdahl.com
{sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,seismo,oliveb,cbosgd}!amdahl!kim
DDD:   408-746-8462
USPS:  Amdahl Corp.  M/S 249, 1250 E. Arques Av, Sunnyvale, CA 94086

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 87 19:16:14 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this OLD movie?

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
> little trouble stopping, a missile from Mars that is scorching its
> way

I am not sure how that happened.  I meant to say a missle from
Venus.  Not an important detail, but I wanted to set the record
straight.

Mark Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Sun 18 Jan 87 15:48:50-CST
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan)

rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber) writes:
> ... James P. Hogan, the author, used to be a consultant for DEC,
> so his books tend to treat computers and most technical/scientific
> subjects "realistically". It is similar to the movie "War Games"
> for this reason: realistic treatment of computers in a good story.
> Most of the computer freaks that I know also enjoyed it...

WAR GAMES is a "realistic treatment of computers in a good
story"???!!!  A teenage hacker calls up NORAD and thinks it's a
videogame company.  One of the most important & dangerous computers
in the world is reached by an ordinary phone line.  The kid then
breaks into it quite easily.  We get high resolution (and I think
even animated) graphics from the NORAD computer appearing on his
screen virtually instantly at 300 baud (yes, an acoustic modem).
The NORAD computer has "games" like "chess" and "global
thermonuclear destruction" just sitting around in the same
directory.  There's an absurdly stereotyped dumb southern-accented
general, a silly mad scientist, retarded security guards whom the
teenager easily eludes.  Don't forget the laughable NORAD computer
itself, dubbed WOPR (as a friend disgustedly joked, "NORAD, home of
the WOPR.")  We are treated to several pans of the camera around the
imposing WOPR, replete with those neato blinking lights.  But the
worst is the ending... after the teenager has unwittingly instigated
WOPR to its dangerous launch state, everyone is completely baffled
at what to do, including the WOPR's designer Dr. Falken (or whatever
mad scientist name he had).  There is of course no way to stop WOPR.
But the kid just sits down and tells WOPR to play tic-tac-toe with
itself a few thousand times (and show it on the big screen) while
all the military brass gaze on in perplexed admiration.  The
supercomputer takes several seconds to play a single game of
tic-tac-toe at first, but it catches on after a while, and soon the
games just go flashing by on the big board, to the slack-jawed
amazement of all, and then the computer says "A curious game; no one
can win" and so decides not to launch its missiles after all.  YAGH,
what a groaner of a movie!  Bad science AND a sappy storyline.

Normally I would not go off on a tirade about a passing remark like
this, but this movie angered me because in my experience it was the
non-computer literate people who thought it was realistic (other
computer folks thought it was stupid).  I found it frightening that
so many "ordinary men on the street" were actually believing that
computers were like they are in this movie, and that the
scriptwriters were wielding so much unwitting control over people's
technophobia.  Don't get me wrong; I certainly don't want the
country to be run by computers any more than the next person.  But
if a movie purports to deal with such issues, it ought to either be
realistic about it, or else be a satire.  But WAR GAMES posed as a
realistic movie and thereby spread a bunch of irresponsible nonsense
about what computers are really like.  After we left the theatre, we
could overhear people talking about how scary computers are, and
actually worried that the events in the movie were quite realistic.
Sure, computers are dangerous, but any knowledgeable computer person
who believes that movie was a realistic treatment of computers must
have overdosed on suspension of disbelief pills.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 87 16:08:23 GMT
From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber)
Subject: Re: War Games

desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) writes:
>    Talk about destroying your own credibility!  To cite "War
> Games" as an example of realistic treatment of computers is
> frankly ludicrous.

1) The method used in the movie to gain access to the computer, was
used by teenaged hackers in at least two widely publicized cases.
Guess where they got the idea? (No, it wasn't Dr. Dobbs journal).
And how many people responsible for computer systems saw that movie
and instead of thinking "ludicrous" thought "oh sh**t"? Obviously
two less than should have to judge by the news reports cited above.

2) The "backdoor" password imbedded in the code is just one example
of a class of problems that computer security specialists have
recognized for years. ( I only took one class in the stuff in the
mid 1970's, and my professor mentioned it there.) Has it gone away?
Are all programmers too honest to do such a thing? Or are all
programs so rigidly scrutinized now that _NO_ unauthorized code
could possibly get by?

3) The war games being played by the computer reminded me of some I
have seen running on various micro's ( though the graphics was a bit
beyond the monochrome IBM pc's we have here).

So the question is, what do you find so ludicrous about the computer
in "War Games"? Was the technology too advanced? Too dated? Did the
software not match the hardware? What, in fact, was so "ludicrous"
about the computer in "War Games"? And where (serious: no flame
intended) has it been done better?

Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va.
seismo!rlgvax!jesse

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 03:46:13 GMT
From: umich!jtr485@rutgers.edu (Johnathan Tainter)
Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan)

From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
> But WAR GAMES posed as a realistic movie and thereby spread a
> bunch of irresponsible nonsense about what computers are really
> like.  After we left the theatre, we could overhear people talking
> about how scary computers are, and actually worried that the
> events in the movie were quite realistic.  Sure, computers are
> dangerous, but any knowledgeable computer person who believes that
> movie was a realistic treatment of computers must have overdosed
> on suspension of disbelief pills.

I don't think it was a realistic treatment of computers but that
didn't stop me from enjoying the story.  Why does even a story
played straight have to follow reality?  Answer carefully, because
every movie that isn't just a documentary collection of live footage
plays hob with some realities.

BTW: If there were a way to verify it one way or the other I would
bet you better than even money that there is a way into the defense
systems over a conventional phone line.  I draw this conclusion
simply from the egotism demonstrated by programmers and especially
security programmers.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 14:07:41 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: War Games

I've got to agree with the original poster: of all the films made
about computers, WarGames strikes me as the most accurate.  I mean,
sure, there were excess; sure, poetic licence was used; sure, there
were things done just to make it visually appealing.  But
"ludicrous" is too strong a word, I think, best reserved for such
things as the wise-cracking talking IBM PC psychiatrist seen last
season in an episode of the sitcom "The Facts of Life."

Yes, a backdoor password might indeed by slipshod security, but such
things do happen.  In a sense, WarGames had the same message that
the soviet committee investigating Chernobyl had.  That committee
concluded that the reactor accident occurred in large measure
because the workers had lost their sense of danger, i.e., had
relaxed into their jobs, forgetting the highly hazardous nature of
what they were working with.  Falken and McKittrup, the two
programmers in WarGames, could have taken shortcuts that made it
possible for security to be compromised far more easily than
*should* have been possible.  And as for the 1200-baud accoustic
coupler used by David Lightman in the film WarGames, I didn't
believe such a thing was possible, either -- until I saw one with my
own eyes.  There's a grad student at the Computer Systems Research
Institute here at the University of Toronto, who, so help me, has
one.  It's not very forgiving of noisy phone lines, but the darn
thing does indeed work.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 18:26:04 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: WAR GAMES

What's more, when the kid first contacts the NORAD computer, he
hooks up a voice synthesizer so we can hear the computer talk.  From
then on, whenever the computer is hooked up to any terminal
anywhere, it manages to speak in the same voice, despite the absence
of a voice synthesizer on that terminal!

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 08:00:51 GMT
From: crash!kevinb@rutgers.edu (Kevin J. Belles)
Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan)

  As well as the things above, the 'modem' noise was like nothing I
know of used today. Accoustic modems can go 1200 baud, using
Racal-Vadic 3451 protocol, but the terminal they used had no
graphics set at all. They cobbled together something that looked
impressive, but what they didn't tell you is that another computer
based on the same bus as that hand-wired looking contraption did all
the graphics on all the screens. Yep, a Compupro. Oh yes; if
somebody can figure out how to get me graphics as good as that map
of the U.S. on a military-version of an ADM-3A, let me know.....

Kevin J. Belles
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!kevinb
ARPA: crash!kevinb@{nosc, ucsd}

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 11:02:38 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan)

Last time I watched this film I wrote down what I thought were
errors and absurdities as they came up in the film.  I ended up with
exactly one for every two minutes of screen time.  It is pretty
tough for a screenwriter to screw up a screenplay that much!

Mark Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 23:16:52 GMT
From: ihlpa!fish@rutgers.edu (Bob Fishell)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat (Movie adaptations in general)

From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock)
> I have a question.  Have there ever been any plans made to make a
> "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie.

It would be nice, but I'd be afraid to see the results.  If any one
else has seen the schlock job that was done to Roger Zelazny's
_Damnation Alley_, a story that would have made a wonderful
screenplay without any modification, you know what I mean.
Jan-Michael Vincent as Hell Tanner, for chrissake?  I might have
believed Kurt Russel. I wonder who they'd get to play Slippery Jim?
Probably some jerk like Gary Collins, the way that Hollywood does in
SF novels.

The only decent adaptation of a classic SF story that I've seen done
well in recent years was John Carpenter's "The Thing," which unlike
it's 1950's predecessor, was pretty faithful to John W. Campbell's
"Who Goes There?," the story from which both films were adapted.

Bob Fishell
ihnp4!ihlpa!fish

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 87 0821-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Bear & Donaldson (4 msgs) &
                    Farmer & Foster & Friedberg & Gee &
                    Gibson & Harrison & Sagan & Wolfe &
                    "Adrian Mole" & A Request &
                    A Correction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 04:15:14 GMT
From: sunybcs!tim@rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Asimov's Robots

Anybody have a complete list of all of Asimov's Robot stories (and
novels)?  I would appreciate any list you may be able to give me.

Timothy D. Thomas
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim
CSnet: tim@buffalo
ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 23-Jan-1987 1333
From: redford%rock.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: re: Bear's pi-meters and Sagan's "Contact"

Gene Ward Smith writes (as part of a negative review of "Contact"):

>"I don't much mind if a poor sap like Greg Bear who knows not what
>he does has a mathematician invent a pi-meter to detect changes in
>the value of pi."

Bear's pi-meter (which appeared in the novel "Eon") was a quite
reasonable way to measure the local curvature of space.  Measure the
circumference and diameter of something, divide them, and if the
value is less than pi then space is positively curved, and if
greater, then space is negatively curved.  One could do an analogous
thing on the surface of the ocean (which is locally flat).  Tie a
rope to some fixed point on the ocean, and then sail around the
point holding on to the rope in order to trace out a circle.  Make
sure that the rope is floating on the surface at all times.  Measure
how far you sail and the length of the rope.  Divide the two, and
you'll find that the sea is curved.  The inventor of the pi-meter
was trying to do the same thing inside an alien artifact.

By the way, I thought that the human science in "Contact" was done
very well, and that it was nice description of how science really
works.  Too many sf novels show scientists rigging up major
inventions in a matter of days, and doing it all by themselves.  An
accurate description of the process of science is actually a lot
more valuable than accurate science in an SF novel, because
speculative science is bound to be wrong in some way.  If you're
right on the human parts you can fudge the physics.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 17:51:28 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #20
From: "Michael_R._Aden.RDES"@Xerox.COM

I found the Covenant series to be excellent reading. Six books may
seem a bit long, but they DID cover a lot of ground. I have to
admit, however, that my biases lie towards larger books with well
developed characters and histories; this tends to set them apart
from the more typical 100 page scifi pulp (insert apologies here if
necessary).

    In that vein, I'm curious as to your views on the quality of
other more developed series of books ( examples which spring to mind
are the Dune books, Asimov's Foundation stuff, and Tolkien, to name
a few).

Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better
than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it.

Michael Aden
aden@whereveriam.idunno

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 12:05:56 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Stephen Donaldson

The first Thomas Covenant trilogy was excellent:-a fine fantasy
adventure with original treatment,excellent
characterisation,psychological/emotional content,epic set-pieces:all
that could be wanted.  The second trilogy could have been as
good,but by now Covenant is in such a perpetually morose,despondent
state it is hard to feel compassion; and the character of Linden
Avery marrs what could still have been a fine work (after all,the
imagery and beauty of the language are still there): she just isn't
interesting,and especially when the trilogy for long parts is
written from her point of view,the attention wanders.  She comes
across as being to selfish and unworthy of respect.  I've also read
'Daughter of Regals'.  Although there are good points this collection
comes across as being very weak.  I hope the new series is stronger.

jml

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 11:54:14 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

philm@astroatc.UUCP (Phil Mason) writes:
>alle@ihlpl.UUCP (Marguerite Czajka) writes:
>>Through my book club, I got "Mirror of Her Dreams" by Stephen
>>Donaldson.  I think I have the author right!  - anyway the one who
>>wrote the Thomas Covenant books.  Since I enjoyed the TC books, I
>>thought I'd read this one but I was surprised to find out it
>>doesn't end - it says it's continued in "A Man Rides Through".
>>Does anyone know if this second book is out?  I couldn't find it
>>the bookstores I went to, and the book club doesn't list it.
>
>I found the Thomas Convenant books a bit disappointing.  Yes, there
>were some excellent moments in the 6 book set, but I found the
>climax most unrewarding after going through 6 books to get there.
>Anyone else out there feel the same?  Or does the ending appeal to
>most everybody?

Two points to this one; I got the impression from reading the bit at
the end of "Mirror of Her Dreams" that the story will be *concluded*
in "A Man Rides Through", so I don't think we'll be in for another
six books with the one basic storyline.

   Second point about the TC books, I think you *must* read them as
separate (though related) trilogies; (My paperback versions of the
first set is labelled "the chronicals of ...." and not "the first
chronicals of...") I still feel that Donaldson would have been
better to let the first trilogy stand on its own, and not take away
from it with a slightly second-rate followup. (Before the flames
start, I thoroughly enjoyed both sets, I really like Donaldson's
style of writing, but I feel he could have done a better job on the
second trilogy!) The ending of the first trilogy was, I think, very
good.  The ending to the second was fairly obvious from about
halfway through "The Wounded Land", and it got a bit frustrating
waiting for two years until the final book was published!

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 11:38:12 GMT
From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) writes:
>[...] I still feel that Donaldson would have been better to let the
>first trilogy stand on its own, and not take away from it with a
>slightly second-rate followup.

Indeed.  It was good, but not AS good...

>(Before the flames start, I thoroughly enjoyed both sets, I really
>like Donaldson's style of writing, but I feel he could have done a
>better job on the second trilogy!) The ending of the first trilogy
>was, I think, very good.  The ending to the second was fairly
>obvious from about halfway through "The Wounded Land", and it got a
>bit frustrating waiting for two years until the final book was
>published!

Yeah, he DID telegraph a bit, didn't he?  I mean, "I need One Tree
wood for the new Staff, but I can't have any... *sigh* WAIT!  Look!
What's in bloody hell's happened to Vain's arm?"

Still, though, I enjoyed the 2nd trilogy's ending... not because I
hadn't guessed at it, but because my mental image of it wasn't
written in Donaldson's prose style.  Also, it was so NECESSARY...

G. T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU
gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 18:46:36 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Life imitating art

morganha@tekecs.UUCP (Morgan Hall) writes:
>  This is an interesting case of life imitating art.  (Another
>example is the book "Venus on the Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout.
>Kurt Vonnegut Jr. metioned it in one of his books, then wrote it
>under a pen name.)

Actually, as I understand it, Philip Jose Farmer wrote "Venus on the
Half Shell" under the name Kilgore Trout.  Vonnegut did not know of
it at the time, and was somewhat annoyed with Farmer when he found
out (mostly because everone thought he had written it).

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 08:26:28 GMT
From: mimsy!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Spellsinger

You may be happy to hear that the latest Spellsinger book has an
ending that shouts, `ENDING!'

(The worst thing about _Spellsinger_ was that it was clearly Part
One of Two, except that Warner never mentioned that on the cover.
On the other hand, they did have a box on the last page to warn of
the sequel.)

Chris Torek
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690)
UUCP: seismo!mimsy!chris
ARPA/CSNet: chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 04:23:11 GMT
From: drivax!alexande@rutgers.edu (Mark Alexander)
Subject: Re: Friedberg

stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>I didn't see the original article, just a followup, but Gertrude
>Friedberg wrote "The Revolving Boy", vintage unrecalled.

"The Revolving Boy" was reprinted as an Ace Science Fiction Special
in 1968, by permission from Doubleday & Co.  It is a great book,
BTW.  Here is what it says about the author:

   Although The Revolving Boy is Gertrude Friedberg's first novel,
   her short stories have appeared in Fantasy and Science Fiction,
   Atlantic Monthly, Harper's, Esquire, Story Magazine and New World
   Writing.  She was also the author of the play Three Cornered
   Moon, which was produced in 1933 with Ruth Gordon in the lead; it
   was later adapted for a film starring Claudette Colbert.

This should give you a start in finding some more of her writing.  I
haven't heard of any more sf novels, though.

Mark Alexander
{hplabs,ucbvax!decvax}!decwrl!pyramid!amdahl!drivax!alexande

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:45:43 cet
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: BOOK REQUEST

I'm looking for a copy of a book titled "Under The Mountain", by
Maurice Gee.  The problem is that it was apparently only printed in
Australia/New Zealand.  It was the basis for a miniseries of the
same title that ran in the US as part of the anthology series "The
Third Eye" on Nickelodeon.  (BTW, Nickelodeon has had some great
stuff on; the rest of "The Third Eye", "The Tomorrow People", and
right now they are running Animated Star Trek.)

If anyone can help me find a copy of this book, I would be GREATLY
appreciative!!!

George D. Madison

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 17:18:34 GMT
From: drivax!alexande@rutgers.edu (Mark Alexander)
Subject: Re: Man-Machine Interfaces.

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>How about Neuromancer by William Gibson , this is one of the best
>books I've read in a long time. I know neuromancer is a debut novel
>but does anybody know if he has written anything else yet and what
>it's called.

The sequel is called _Count Zero_.  I read it without reading
Neuromancer, and I confess I wasn't as impressed as all the
reviewers made me expect I'd be.  It seemed like Gibson skimmed a
lot of BYTE magazines to pick up some jargon and a few technical
ideas, but it didn't convince me.  I kept thinking through the whole
book that everything he was describing would seem out of date in 5
years.  Even the explanation of the title (some mumbo-jumbo about
"on interrupt, decrement counter to zero") didn't seem right,
somehow.

I realize that most successful science fiction works by giving the
illusion of technical accuracy in this way, but I found it harder to
suspend disbelief with Gibson than I did with some novels that are
even more fantastic and less technically accurate, like Bester's
_Tiger Tiger_ (aka _The Stars My Destination_).  Since I'm in the
minority, it must be my problem, not Gibson's.

Mark Alexander
{hplabs,ucbvax!decvax}!decwrl!pyramid!amdahl!drivax!alexande

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1987 14:57 CST
From: John Bertram Geis(Syzygy Darklock)
Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat

   I have a question.  Have there ever been any plans made to make a
"Stainless Steel Rat" Movie.  Just recently, I found a book which
contained a collection of three of James Bolivar DeGriz's best
adventures,

     The Stainless Steel Rat
     The Revenge of the Stainless Steel Rat
 and The Stainless Stell Rat Saves the World.

   Once again, I have become immursed in admiration for Harry
Harrison's genius, just as I was when I read "The Stainless Steel
Rat for President" and "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born".  It strikes
me that someone is that "magical" land of HollyWood would have
jumped at the chance to bring these stories to the screen.  So, why
didn't they??  Anybody out there have any knowledge as to whether or
not such an offer was ever made to Harry Harrison, and if so, then
what happened to it?  (Oh, and before the flames start, I am not
advocating that all good SF should or could be made into great
movies, but I am merely stating that I am surprised that no one ever
seemed to try with the "Rat" books!)

P.S.  Anybody out there know of any other Stainless Steel Rat
stories that I haven't found yet?  If so, please advise me, so that
I may make a point of searching for them.  Thank You.

John B. Geis
GEISJBJ @ UREGINA1

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 18:28:49 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Contact

What I think is most interesting about this book is that Sagan (who
is about as pure an agnostic as you can get) is admitting to the
fact that he would except a sufficiently sophisticated "Watchmaker"
argument for the existence of God (at least an intelligence that
created the universe).  The whole bit about the picture of the
circle embedded in the digits of PI is just an example of what he
would except as evidence.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 87 20:31:09 GMT
Subject: Free Live Free

From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
> My recomendation: Read the book if you can get it without paying
> for it.  Or if given to you, then read the first part of the book,
> then skip directly to the last part -- the middle isn't really
> necessary to the ending.

To me, everything's worth reading (provided that you like Wolfe)
*except* the end.  No criticism of Bruce intended, I just happen to
like different things.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 16:40:13 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "Adrian Mole"

>    The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole is, co-incidentally, like The
>Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy a TV series of the book of the
>radio series.

When I was in Australia I read a newspaper article praising THE
SECRET DIARY OF ADRIAN MOLE, AGE 13 3/4 and its sequels, and went
out and bought the book.  Neither book nor article mentioned a
pre-existing radio show.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 14:56:16 GMT
From: osupyr!rhr@rutgers.edu (Robert Robinson)
Subject: Another Question

I was wondering if anyone knew the name of the editor(s) of a book
named "Eerie, Wierd, and Wicked". As I remember, it contained
several short stories by different authors.

Thanx,
cbogsd!osupyr!rhr

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 19:47:35 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: HF (Hitler Fiction)

KFL@MX.LCS.MIT.EDU writes:
>   There is also Gregory Benford's _Century of Progress_

Methinks you meant Fred Saberhagen's _A Century of Progress_.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 87 0837-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:

             Television - Japanese Animation (5 msgs) &
                          Blake's 7 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 16:24:26 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech

kalash@unisoft.UUCP (Joe Kalash) writes:
>> ...  What about Carl Macek's plot hacks like turning Protoculture
>> into an energy source (ugh!) ...
>
>Ah, ha. This implies there are people out there who understand
>Robotech. Could somebody PLEASE explain it to me? I have seen
>several different episodes, and have never had any real idea of
>what in hell is going on. Like, what is Protoculture (it is
>mentioned several times, but never even remotely explained, it just
>seems to be important), ...

***MINOR SPOILER if you're going to see Macross in the Japanese***

Well, Protoculture *isn't* a power source (though, when you think
about it,... ;-) Y'see, protoculture is just our backward,
under-evolved way of going about things.  This applies especially to
our, ahem, breeding habits, and other *biological* functions.

The Big Guys had given up such petty concerns centuries ago: their
women and men are kept *very* separate, the women beating up on the
throwbacks on one side of the galaxy, the men on the other.  The Big
Guys thought they were beyond such annoyances as hormones, until
they got a look at Minmei.  (Notice all those Minmei dolls the Big
Guys carried around? ;-)

Also, they cut out my favorite scene: Remember when Minmei and Rick
got stuck inside the SDF-1?  (There was a wedding ceremony.)  Well,
when they get back, Minmei introduces Rick to her (uncle? father?):
"This is Rick.  My husband."  The expression on Rick's face, just
before he fainted, was priceless.

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: Thu 22 Jan 87 02:33:00-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Japanese Animation

   I cannot recommend "Warriors of the Wind"; it is a vivid example
of what American companies do to beautiful Japanese animated movies.
They destroy it.  "Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind" was raped, and
"Warriors of the Wind" is the bastard offspring of that rape.
Crucial scenes were cut, and the overall feeling left by a viewer is
one of confusion.  The ecology message ("Nausicaa" was dedicated to
the WWF) was totally lost in "Warriors".  Even if you don't
understand Japanese, "Nausicaa" in Japanese makes more sense than
"Warriors" in English does as long as you have an elementary plot
synopsis.

   Curiously, the company wasn't Harmony this time.  It was Manson
(I wonder if the first name was Charles???).  The much superior
"Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind" is 9800 yen in Laser Disc format
(about $65 at today's of $1 = 150 yen).  I got my copy at Ishimaru
in Akihabara (great place, they give you coupons good for sizable
discounts on subsequent purchases; I bought hundreds of dollars of
animation laser discs there).  Of course, if you buy from rip-off
places like Books Nippon you can expect to pay twice as much.

   I dread what they are going to do to "Laputa", a new movie by the
same director (Mizazaki Hayao).  It was one of the most popular
animated movies of 1986 in Japan.  I bought it as well, and with
only some fragments of dialog my Japanese friends culled from
magazines I had no problem in understanding it.  I speak some
Japanese, so that's a bit of an advantage, but my wife who knows no
Japanese had no problem either.

   Anyway, it is rumored that the same jerks are going to come out
with an English language version of "Laputa".  Groan.  Let's hear it
for another blow against real understandings of anime.

   In other news...  The last "Urusei Yatsura" story was released a
day or so ago.  Evidentally Takahashi Rumiko has decided to move on
to other things.  As soon as I find out what the final story is I'll
pass it on to anybody who is interested.  Don't despair, a Urusei
Yatsura 5 movie is in the works.  A script was finished late last
November, according to Movement!, the fan club (Kitty Animation
Circle) magazine.  The story is still a secret though.  It's
possible that we'll continue to see Lum-chan and Ataru in a series
of movies, much as the Star Trek series.  It's much better to have a
few movies than many TV shows and comics that are going downhill,
isn't it?

   The complete Urusei Yatsura TV series will be released on Laser
Disc (50 in all) to Kitty Animation Circle members.  It's a bit
expensive -- 330,000 yen (about $2100) -- but well worth it for a
true fan.  It may be too late to order it, but if you're interested
send me a message and I'll give you the details.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 04:59:26 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.edu (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech

I'll just summarize the "enemies".  I expect you'll get other
responses anyway.

   Long ago, there were the Robotech Masters.  At some time in
their history Zor, a scientest, developed/discovered 'protoculture'.
Protoculture is probably a plant derivative, but it's not clear (it
may well be the plant itself).  With the aid of protoculture the
Masters' culture evolved and they developed specialized genetic
types for specific purposes.  Musica and her sisters make music, the
leaders lead, the soldiers fight, etc.  One of the genetic
developments were the Zentraedi.  This type was to be a sort of
military/police arm for the Robotech society.  However, they
rebelled and developed into an independant race.

   I'm unclear as to how the Invid developed, but it is clear that
they are not linked to the Robotech Masters.  They seem to have
developed on their own and simply come into conflict with the
Masters when their Flower of Life was found to grow by feeding on
Protoculture.  It may be that this had something to do with the
discovery of Protoculture.  I've missed a lot of the later episodes.

   Anyway, the SDF-1 was a lost spaceship which crashed on the
Earth.  It's origins are also unclear.  On the one hand, it seems to
be a Zentraedi ship, but the design is unlike any other Zentraedi
ship.  In the Robotech world (as opposed to the Macross world) it
might be that the SDF-1 was an old ship from the days when the
Robotech Masters ruled the Zentraedi.  The Zentraedi came to Earth
to recover the SDF-1 in order to regain the lost secret of
Protoculture.  The Robotech Masters came to recover the SDF-1 later
for the same reason.

   It would be interesting to find out what the original 3 stories
were about.  It has been hinted that Protoculture was something
other than an energy source prior to Macek.  In the Robotech
version, Protoculture is a sort of panacea.  It is an energy source
for all Robotech Master and Zentraedi spaceships and vehicles, it
helps in the cloning process and likely helps in growing food.

Cheers!

Jim O.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 23:40:52 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech

Some corrections to the recent postings of Robotech.  My source is
The Robotech Graphic Novel and the Series.  The Novel was based on a
story by Carl Macek and is available from Comico.  They also do
graphic adaptions of the three segments but the quality is nowhere
near the series or the Graphic Novel.

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>I'll just summarize the "enemies".  I expect you'll get other
>responses anyway.
>
> Long ago, there were the Robotech Masters.  At some time in their
> history Zor, a scientest, developed/discovered 'protoculture'.
> Protoculture is probably a plant derivative, but it's not clear
> (it may well be the plant itself).  With the aid of protoculture
> the Masters' culture evolved and they developed specialized
> genetic types for specific purposes.  Musica and her sisters make
> music, the leaders lead, the soldiers fight, etc.  One of the
> genetic developments were the Zentraedi.  This type was to be a
> sort of military/police arm for the Robotech society.  However,
> they rebelled and developed into an independant race.

The Zentraedi are not independent of the Masters.  The plot of the
Graphic Novel made this clear as did certain segments of the series.

The plot of the Graphic novel explained a great many things and I
will briefly go over the plot.  (Certain Spoilers but no more than
was given in previous postings)

Zor invented/discovered Protoculture.  THey used this to
protogenetically create the zentraedi race.  Using Zor's
Battlefortress, the SDF-1, Zor and Dolza along with other Zentraedi
"seeded" planets with Spores from which more protoculture grew.  The
Invid need the protoculture to live and frequently attack these
seeding expeditions.  The Zentraedi defend Zor from these attacks.
The Robotech Masters used the robotechnology to wage war and conquer
the galaxy using the Zentraedi as their agents.  Now, Zor did not
wish for his discoveries to be used for war so while the Zentraedi
were defending against an Invid attack, he sent the SDF-1 on a
preprogrammed flight through Hyperspace to Earth where he hoped we
would use the technology for peaceful purposes.  During that
selfsame attack, He was killed by the Invid and his body was brought
back to to the Robotech Masters homeworld where they tried their
techniques of breaking the body apart and reviving racial memories
in order to obtain the co-ordinates of the SDF-1.  The recovery of
the SDF-1 was quintessencial to the Robotecxh Master's continual
existance because it contained the protoculture factory.  Dolza
ordered Breetai's fleet to seek out and recover the SDF-1.  Now, the
SDF-1 in its original form looked much different before we repaired
the remains.  The Zentraedi, being a purely warlike race, were
deliberately kept in the dark about the inner workings of
robotechnology and protoculture.  This was a precaution on the
Masters part so that the Zentredi would not rebel against Masters.
Dolza resented this and that is why he was anxious to recover the
SDF-1.  Some more evidence supporting that the Zentraedi are still
working for the Robotech Masters (In the series, it was quite
explicit in the GN) was when Breetai and Exodore recognised the
SDF-1 as Zor's Battlefortress("Boobytraap") and when Khyron the
Desroyer (in "To the Stars") said that he would destory the two
SDF's and "REJOIN THE ROBOTECH MASTERS"

>      I'm unclear as to how the Invid developed, but it is clear
> that they are not linked to the Robotech Masters.  They seem to
> have developed on their own and simply come into conflict with the
> Masters when their Flower of Life was found to grow by feeding on
> Protoculture.  It may be that this had something to do with the
> discovery of Protoculture.  I've missed a lot of the later
> episodes.
>      Anyway, the SDF-1 was a lost spaceship which crashed on the
> Earth.  It's origins are also unclear.  On the one hand, it seems
> to be a Zentraedi ship, but the design is unlike any other
> Zentraedi ship.  In the Robotech world (as opposed to the Macross
> world) it might be that the SDF-1 was an old ship from the days
> when the Robotech Masters ruled the Zentraedi.  The Zentraedi came
> to Earth to recover the SDF-1 in order to regain the lost secret
> of Protoculture.  The Robotech Masters came to recover the SDF-1
> later for the same reason.

As I said before, We changed the design when we repaired the ship.
Remember Breetai and Exodore's surprise when they saw the
Battlefortress?

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 23:44 ???
From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Harmony Gold Tapes

I have heard rumors about Robotech : The Movie being axed due to a
bad debut in Dallas and The Next Generation not selling to any TV
stations.

It seems to me that before the series hit TV at all, Harmony Gold
offered the 1st saga (with the other 2 planned) in purchasable video
tape format.  I wonder if they will be offering the Movie etc. and I
wonder if all 3 sagas were, in fact, eventually offered this way.

We know that America can't handle intelligent SF animation yet, but
it might be somewhat profitable to offer lots of Japanimation in
video tape singles.  Granted, it would be expensive, but there is a
real audience out there, even if it isn't big enough to justify
broadcasting.  Besides, it has been proven tapes can get down to
$19.95.  I am sure you might be able to persuade your local rental
store to carry such tapes.  I mean, if they carry Transformers and
He-Man, they might as well carry something with substance.

Another possibility is higher cable channels.  I remember Showtime
showed the whole Thunderbirds 2086 long before it hit TV.  It is
possible some cable companies could pick up Robotech & others.

In any case, I am not sure if Harmony Gold is still doing this or if
they will do this for the new stuff.  (They must have put SOME
effort into chopping and voice-overs, so they will try to get a
profit in any way possible.)  I have the first few epsiodes of
Robotech saga 1 in purchased video tapes from Harmony Gold.  For
those of you who would like to check up on it, here is their address
(from which you could originally order tapes):

Harmony Gold, USA, Inc.
8033 Sunset Blvd., Suite 4022
West Hollywood, CA 90046

Kurt Geisel

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 21:31:56 GMT
From: crash!victoro@rutgers.edu (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven

kevinb@crash.UUCP (Kevin Belles) writes:

>Say, was there ever any toys or models for Blake's Seven? I know
>there was Some Corgi stuff for Thunderbirds, but wondered if they
>ever did anything similiar with Blake's 7....

I believe that Corgi did come out with a model "Liberator" and I
once found a model from another company at a local Toys-R-Us about a
year back.

>P.S. Watched the last episode...Why don't they have endings like
>that in American TV?

I've been told that the suicide rate in Britain rose 20% after that
last episode was aired.  This could also be due to the usual rise
of the suicide rate over the Christmas season, as the episode aired
a few days before Christmas.

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jan 87 22:57:59 GMT (Sorted by Postman Pat)
From: Drew <CEU1102%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven

>>I wrote: don't slag off Blake's Seven: I went to school with Terry
>>Nation's son, Darryl Smith, (the family name is Smith not Nation
>>fact fans), for fourteen years and they live in the next village
>>to me so watch out.
>
>Eleanor Evans wrote: I watched Blake's Seven avidly (if in some
>amount of confusion) while I was studying in Glasgow.  I have been
>looking for books from the show, or tapes of it, or ANYTHING -
>mostly so I can tell my friends here about it and not have them
>look at me like I was losing my mind.  Can anyone give me any
>pointers?

    Well, I could help sort of: I understood the Blake's 7 books are
all still available if you write to the BBC directly: and I'm not
too sure if there was not a video released of it as well...  If
anyone gets stuck they could mail me direct, (please have patience
with our FTP here), and I *could* tell you Terry Nation's home
address if things are getting too desperate for you all.

Drew@uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber1

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 87 0853-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous - 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' (10 msgs) &
                          First D&D story (3 msgs) & Boskone &
                          NorEasCon 3

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 22:18 CDT
From: "FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

   I've always known that science fiction fans prefer not to be
referred to as: 'SCI-FI' fans.  Further, we (and I do include myself
in the category as a science fiction fan) apparently take exception
to referring to anything as 'SCI-FI'.  The thing about it is, even
though I've been a fan for about 20 years, I've never really
understood why it is considered a NO-NO to refer to it as 'SCI-FI'.
Frankly, in my early years as a fan, I DID refer to it as 'SCI-FI'.

   Elucidations, please !!!

Warren M. Iwamoto
Texas Instruments, Inc.
iwamoto%forest%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 17:24:13 GMT
From: utastro!allen@rutgers.edu (J. Allen Hill)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

I thought that (until the last decade or so) Science Fiction was
abbreviated "SF" in writing, but pronounced "sci-fi".  These days,
maybe we are used to a mouthful of letters.....

J. Allen Hill
Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712
{allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!allen   (UUCP)
allen@astro.UTEXAS.EDU.                         (Internet)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 19:42:43 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

From: "FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET
>I've always known that science fiction fans prefer not to be
>referred to as: 'SCI-FI' fans.  Further, we (and I do include
>myself in the category as a science fiction fan) apparently take
>exception to referring to anything as 'SCI-FI'.  The thing about it
>is, even though I've been a fan for about 20 years, I've never
>really understood why it is considered a NO-NO to refer to it as
>'SCI-FI'.  Frankly, in my early years as a fan, I DID refer to it
>as 'SCI-FI'.
>Elucidations, please !!!

Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a deragatory manner
by people who do not believe that sf/science fiction/speculative
fiction/whatever this stuff is is a valid form of literature. Use of
"sci fi" correlates highly (but not perfectly, I admit) with
condescension to the genre, feelings of superiority to "that Buck
Rogers stuff," and dismissal of the genre as trash.

Serious sf fans, therefore, often reject the term "sci-fi" in favor
of "science fiction" or (especially in reference to recent
soft-science or new-wave works) "speculative fiction" or "sf". Some
fans will use "sci-fi" themselves as a derogatory term for something
which fulfills the mainstream's expectations of sf; for example,
Battlestar Galactica is sci-fi.

Personally, I prefer to use "sf" and get a bit riled when people use
"sci-fi", but not much unless they actually intend to insult the
genre. Often people use "sci-fi" because it's the term they're used
to or they don't know that many people reject it, so you can't
assume they use the term because they mean its implications.

And if you really want to say that something is bad, call it
"sci-fi" but pronounce it "skiffy". Alf is skiffy.

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 18:50:56 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Personally, I prefer to use "sf" and get a bit riled when people
>use "sci-fi", but not much unless they actually intend to insult
>the genre. Often people use "sci-fi" because it's the term they're
>used to or they don't know that many people reject it, so you can't
>assume they use the term because they mean its implications.

That's a lot like the local reaction here in the SF Bay Area when
someone refers to Baghdad-by-the-Bay as "Frisco" (I have that
reaction to "Frisco", try as I might to get over it).  I've never
felt a negative reaction to "Sci-fi", though, and prefer it to "SF"
because it's easier to pronounce, but I usually say "Science
Fiction" to be sure I'm understood.

One problem these days is that many (most?) bookstores have merged
SF and Fantasy into the same shelves marked "Science Fiction".  This
doesn't *really* bother me because I love both genres equally, but I
always think the "and Fantasy" addition to the little signs.  Has
anyone come up with a broader description for writings in all the
categories bookstores include on the SF shelves? ("Science Fiction",
"Speculative Fiction", "Fantasy", and, often enough, "Occult" (like
Tanith Lee)).  Where do you place Brian Aldis in this mad spectrum?

On the other hand, Battlestar Ponderosa deserves what it gets.  :-)

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corporation

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 00:06:33 GMT
From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

> though I've been a fan for about 20 years, I've never really
> understood why it is considered a NO-NO to refer to it as
> 'SCI-FI'.

Simply put, "sci-fi" is the term used by outsiders when speaking
(derogatorily more often than not) of the genre.  If we say "SF",
they usually think we're referring to San Francisco.  Hence "SF"
doesn't have the negative association that "sci-fi" does.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 14:06:37 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a derogatory
>manner by people who do not believe that sf/science
>fiction/speculative fiction/whatever this stuff is is a valid form
>of literature. Use of "sci fi" correlates highly (but not
>perfectly, I admit) with condescension to the genre, feelings of
>superiority to "that Buck Rogers stuff," and dismissal of the genre
>as trash.

  Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is true?
I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way (for
instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with
influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 17:55:06 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

"Sci-fi", though originally coined by Forrest Ackerman, a true fan,
was grabbed up and taken to heart by the news media, general public,
and non-fen in general.  Thus it is shunned in favor of "SF" by
those who know and love science fiction.  There is a strong element
of snobbishness here, but that's ok. Personally, I like to use "SF"
to refer to most science fiction, and reserve "sci-fi" for failed
science fiction produced for non sf-lovers.  This usually be a movie
(such as "The Star Fighter") or a TV program (such as "Battlestar
Galactica"), but it could apply to a book.  I haven't read Carl
Sagan's "Contact", but from net.comments, it sounds like it could be
sci-fi.

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 20:34:29 GMT
From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

Then there was that song by Cliff Richard: "Sci-Fi" - phew, major
uncool as some would say. If that ain't enough to put you off the
phrase then what is?

With regard to those who comment on putting 'fantasy' under 'science
fiction' and similar misclassification in the shelves of a
bookshop/library.. the worst example of this that I ever saw was:

   'Occult and Cosmology'  !!!

It's funny I couldn't find anything by Einstein or Hawking, just
this stuff about dancing naked around the fountain at midnight. Must
try it sometime...

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 22:43:20 GMT
From: c3pe!maugorn@rutgers.edu (Steve Haug)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

I also prefer to use the term SF because it isn't quite as easy to
infer the sort of "pulp/comic book" type of connotations that
"sci-fi" has come to enjoy over the years.

As to the bookstores' classification problems, one way for them to
resolve them is to look at the literature from a different angle: SF
should be a subclass of Fantasy Literature.  Since prehistory,
stories with fanciful or mythological or other types of fantastic
elements have been enjoyed and used to various ends.  Myths,
Legends, Fairy Tales all contain elements that are to the senses,
"unreal."  These unreal elements can be superhuman abilities,
strange phenomena, and "unknown lands".  To this list, SF often adds
"might be possible if..." for developments in technology and even
Man himself as well as many others.  In the other types of Fantastic
stories, these elements are often secondary to the other points in
the story.  I feel that SF turns into "Sci Fi" when the fantastic
elements in the story take precedence over the story itself.  Notice
that I do not state that this makes a story bad.  Personally, I find
that I prefer and enjoy the most those stories where the elements
(plot, characters, descriptions, setting) add up to something that
is MORE somehow than simply the relating of some event that
happenned in some setting to some character.  And in order for me to
feel that a story is "good" (ANY STORY, not just SF) it must meet
that criterion.  I don't feel that SF writing is somehow immune to
the critical analysis that any other kind of art is subjected to.
This "more somehow" element can be any number of things, which
includes the author making the story "entertaining."
  All in all, MY two cents in the argument about the worth of art is
based upon this premise.  I feel that "good" art is something in
which the artist has created a work that surpasses the medium that
contains it, such as a story being more than the mere narration of
events and a poem becomming more than just what the words are saying
and a painting or sculpture becoming more than a picture or a
statue.  What a lot of critics don't seem to realise is that style,
genre, and media are tools that the artists use and not the other
way round.  Hence, the value of the tools is only as good as the
skill of the artist that wields them.  In this light, the benefit of
abstract over pictorial art becomes a useless argument because the
it now rests on questions over whether the artist has successfully
achieved what he attempted.  Sure, a lot of the standards will be
subjective and depend on the taste of the individual consumer, but
so what?  On the other hand, there are ways of finding elements in
some work that can have an affect on it's audience.  These elements
can be studied to some extent and value judgements can be made
regarding a work's effectiveness and the skill of the artist using
the medium to produce it.  It's a strange and uncertain scale, but
one can defend it by, for instance comparing how much information
and story is conveyed in say a pragraph from "Hamlet" and say a
paragraph from a random Harlequinn Romance.  I maintain that
Shakespeare is the better writer and thus his work has more
"artistic" value.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 04:06:41 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

    Four quick thoughts on the relationship twixt the term "sci-fi"
and real science fiction.

    1. I personally dislike the term "sci fi" with a few exceptions.
I find it a wonderful perjorative term to describe those spec-fic
(speculative fiction; ie, science fiction and fantasy) works which
fit easily under the term. (Yes, that's a circular definition.)
    2. I dislike it because it ghettoizes science fiction, which is
still struggling to escape the critical "urinal" that Vonnegut
described it being trapped in many years ago.
    3. I do not mind the use of the term as long as mainstream
fiction is likewise ghettoized; Orson Scott Card describes it as "Li
Fi", that particular type of fiction for which the Nobel prize is
awarded and which insists on being regarded as the one true form of
"literary fiction".
    4. Calling SF "skiffy" is okay by me, as it makes me laugh.
"Skiffy: Sticks to the roof of your mind."--Joe Haldeman

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: Wed 14 Jan 87 10:36-EST
From: Elizabeth Willey <ELIZABETH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: First D&D story
Cc: king@kestrel.arpa

This is a stupid thing to argue about, but I'll bite:

Wolfram von Eschenbach, Chrestien de Troyes, and innumerable others,
some of whom are even still known as names and not as Anonymous,
long preceded Frank Baum's Oz.  Parzival, the Arthurian cycle of
stories, the Mabinogion, and thousands of folk tales all feature
quests, magical implements, etc., etc.  People all over the world
have been making up stories of this sort for millennia.

Please let's talk about books, authors, films, and suchlike, but not
with foolish and useless argument.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 87 21:50:16 GMT
From: watdragon!hwarkentyne@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Warkentyne)
Subject: Re: First D&D story

I nominate Beowolf.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 87 19:23:01 GMT
From: tekigm!dand@rutgers.edu (Dan C. Duval)
Subject: Re: First D&D story

If you're merely looking for stories with gods, demons, magic, and
the like, why not go all the way back in recorded history to the
mythologies of Ancient Egypt and Ur? With a loose enough definition,
all literature (including fantasy, science fiction, romance,
adventure, etc) starts there.

Dan C Duval
ISI Engineering
Tektronix, Inc.
tektronix!tekigm!dand

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 87 14:34:56 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Boskone hotel note

   Please pass on this information to any of your friends who aren't
on the net but may be planning to come to Boskone.

   There have been some problems with booking rooms over the phone;
the hotel has now been told in no uncertain terms that it is to
accept room reservations for our block over the phone. The hotel has
just told me they have so little other business that they are adding
200 rooms to our block, so there are still rooms available.
\Suites/ are being reserved through the committee because we ran out
last year and wanted to give first priority to groups throwing open
parties, but it now looks like we may be able to give a suite to
everybody who wants one.

We're currently working on making hotel checkin faster; at least the
hotel now understands that 600+ people will be trying to check in
between 3 and 6 on Friday. If there's anyone in your group who can
possibly put your room on a credit card, \please/ do so; paying cash
in advance means the hotel must generate your bill at checkin, which
causes a delay.

There is an unfortunate typo in the progress report: parking at the
hotel costs $10 per night rather than $7. ($10 was pegged in our
contract last May; it's now $11 for non-Boskone hotel guests and
worse for people not registered at the hotel.) For people coming in
from some distance, parking at Riverside and taking the trolley in
to the hotel will be inconvenient but much cheaper ($1 per day for
parking, $1.35 per person for both ways on the trolley).

Chip Hitchcock
chair, Boskone XXIV

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 87 20:20:19 PST
From: Bob Pratt <pratt@camelot.stanford.edu>
Subject: NorEasCon 3

I know it isn't 'til 1989, but I was wondering if the con had an
e-mail address. OK, pretty random question, but their mailing
address is at MIT, and MIT does have a few computers. If anyone out
there knows an answer (yea or nay) to this, please either post your
reply or mail it to me.

Thanx,
Bob

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 87 0912-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:

              Books - Brust (5 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 02:24:44 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: 17 of these bloody things (was Teckla)

ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes:
>Your subject line was re: Teckla, but I wonder if you have in fact
>read that latest contribution to the, er, cycle.  I think Teckla is
>considerably different from the first two, for better or (and?) for
>worse.

Urg. Yes, Teckla is considerably different in tone from the first
two, and there is considerable (too much?) character development.
But, then, that was true about the 3rd Thieve's World book, the 4th+
Foundation book, the >3rd Flux & Anchor book, the 3+rd Deryni book,
the 2nd Chronicles of Amber, the later Thomas Covenant...ghads! I
could go on forever. A common characteristic of all these is that at
or about the 5th book, no matter how much I liked the series, the
game got tiring. I suspect (boy I could get flamed for this one)
that had Gene Wolfe dragged out the Book of the New Sun any longer
than he did, I would have throw up my hands in despair. (it was
great as it was)

My point is that 1 book is fine, 2 are fine, ...even 4 or 5 are
fine, but *17*???!!!??!? (ok, 18, but most of the readers of the 1st
3 books don't know that the next is Easterner) Even Proust couldn't
pull that off successfully. (well, maybe...) About the only
mega-series that worked was Perry Rhodan, but that's mostly because
it didn't have any content anyway.  (boy, am I asking for it today!)

Given the meticulous plot development, I can see how Brust might
hold our interest for more than the usually number of
volumes...maybe 7 or 8, maybe a few more, but seven (or eight)-teen
of them? All I can say is, if he can pull it off, I'll be even more
amazed at how good a storyteller he is than I already am. (by 3 or 4
orders of magnitude)

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 06:12:27 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla

trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes:
>Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things?
>Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even
>a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get
>tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books.

I would agree with this.

Except that, while JHEREG and YENDI were of the ``light humor''
variety, TECKLA was anything but.  If the background remains the
same, but different stories are told each time, the series could
well remain readable over 17 books; the fact that SKZB could fit
into the framework of Dragaera two such different stories as JHEREG
and TECKLA suggests to me that he has the competence required to
pull it off.  As long as he doesn't rest on his laurels and let the
series carry itself forward, thereby losing it.

For example: so far, we've seen much about Vlad's outlook on the
world, from the standpoints of the young Vlad and of the more mature
Vlad (although not in that order); we have also seen him grow up
even more, and seen some- thing of Cawti's outlook.  But there is
more to see from Cawti's view; and we have yet to get a look at the
outlook of a Dragaeran, except from the outside.  And especially
limited, given the fact that there are seventeen different *kinds*
of Dragaerans.  (How do Chreothas fell about it?)  How about the
undead (i.e. Sethra or the Necromancer)?  Or those who
``un-live''(?)  beyond Deathsgate Falls?  Hints, we've had; again,
from the outside.  And it sure looks to me like SKZB is a good
enough author to be able to write stories from these viewpoints.

There's plenty of material there for good stories.  If they are
written correctly.  (Yes, Mr. Brust, you may take that as a warning.
:-)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 20:49:21 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Teckla

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>I just gotta ask. (and hope that skzb doesn't mind direct
>questions)
>
>Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things?
>Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even
>a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get
>tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books.

Ray, I hate to accuse you of being egotistical, but aren't you being
a bit self-centered in all of this?  If you get tired of the books
after seven or eight, stop buying them.  If enough people stop
buying them, they'll stop publishing them.  And if they stop
publishing them, I'll bet Steve will stop writing them.  Maybe.

Speaking for myself, I hope Steven keeps writing them as long as he
WANTS to write them.  If Ray decides to stop buying them, I'll just
start buying two copies to make up the slack.

I mean, seriously, why bitch at someone who is writing good books
about writing good books?  There are so many mediocre works out
there, why not go bitch at THEM to take up some other line of work?

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 21:08:58 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Teckla

I almost hesitate to make a response to this, since Scott has
written in such a way that just about anything I say will sound like
a flame, but whatthehell...

Scott Turner says:
>The flak has stemmed from the fact that Teckla is in many ways a
>poorly written story.

Um, are you sure they didn't put an Anthony book in the wrong cover?

>The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the book,
>nothing much happens.

Uh, Vlad gets in trouble, gets in more trouble, runs around with an
assassin on his ass trying to find a solution, gets in even more
trouble, finds a semi-solution, sort of.  All the while having a
major marital problem.  Cawti moves out, there is a major uprising
and near rebellion.

Uh, what book were you reading? It wasn't Teckla...

>But the first task of writing is to present a story, and Teckla
>doesn't present much of an interesting story, despite all the
>fireworks.

Wait a second, there are lots of fireworks and no story?  Do I smell
either a rationalization or a paradox here?

>Not to start an analysis of Brust's career (I think his head is
>probably swelled enough with people calling him God)

I hate to break this to people, but every time I've dealt with
Steven, I've found him to be a mellow and down to earth person. His
head is swelled a LOT less than all these wonderful people who get
off by beating on people more successful than themselves.  There is
an old Hungarian proverb: If you can't do something as good as
someone else, belittle it. It won't be productive, but you'll feel
better. (thank you, Mr. Bananacheck)

>Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's
>presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly
>quite boring as well.

Sigh, I considered a point-by-point refutation of Scott, but it
wouldn't do any good.  Scott is obviously the final arbiter of
taste, and what he belives is what it.  He even knows more than the
author himself, so what good is it arguing?  I'm obviously wrong.

So let me just state for the record that I think Scott doesn't know
what he's talking about, that I'm not sure he read the same book I
did, and that I think he's completely offbase.  If you like the kind
of reviews Scott does, ignore me.  If you like the kind of reviews I
do, ignore Scott.  There are no absolutes, it is all a matter of
personal taste.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 01:24:24 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Teckla

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Speaking for myself, I hope Steven keeps writing them as long as he
>WANTS to write them.  If Ray decides to stop buying them, I'll just
>start buying two copies to make up the slack.

Hurm. I agree conditionally. If Brust continues to *WANT* to write
Vlad books, he should. I say "agree conditionally" because I have
some trouble with the word "want". I agree, if by "want", you mean
that Brust continues to have something interesting to say, or some
interesting character development he wants to expound on.

From past experience, it seems to me that many authors start out
"wanting" to write good stories, but later succumb to commercialism.
This seems to happen exclusively when an author gets carried away
with the commercial success of (usually, _1_ of) a series. The most
familiar example of this syndrome is Piers Anthony's Xanth Trilogy
(ha!). As evidenced by some of his earlier work (Tarot, Omnivore,
Macroscope, et al) he has the ability to be an excellent writer.
Bang! along comes Xanth, and we lose another good storyteller,
gaining yet another Alan Dean Hackwriter.

The fact that Brust has been able to bring off the first 3 books of
the Vlad series so well, does not mean that this quality will last
as long as the series. Brust may be able to pull it off. (as I said
before, I'll be amazed if he can. (and pleased)) If he can't, or
doesn't want to do it well, though, I would *much* rather that he
make a *real* ending to the series than leave it open for dozens of
drab continuations.

I agree, though, that my first posting on this subject was not well
thought out. Change it as follows: modify the "please, don't do it",
to "please, let the series run out before the quality does." and add
the proviso that if the quality continues at its currently high
level, I would be more than pleased if the series were to continue
as well.

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:07 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Hogan

Semi-relevant annecdote:

In an inteview, Hogan complained about how little research most
writers do on the subject on which they are writing.  He told about
another interview he'd given on computers where he'd told the
reporter was that the reason computers were getting smaller and
smaller was because they were making the bits smaller these days.
The reporter printed this explanation.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 04:26:35 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: The Two Faces of Tomorrow, by James P. Hogan

Having gone through RPK's LONG article, I have to say I agree with a
lot of his points, but mostly the minor ones like holding logs in a
person's hand, not using computational resources properly, etc.  It
just proves that Hogan isn't the world's greatest writer.  His
characterizations are usually cardboard and he tends not to think
everything through which leads to minor (but aggravating to some)
oversights and mistakes.

However, in my opinion, it's still the best AI-oriented book I've
ever read.  The AI in the book actually makes sense (as opposed to
the AI in The Adolesence of P-1, and Neuromancer to name a few).

Hesper, as defined by the book, seems to be a learning system which
can learn how to do a job better once it's given some initial
knowledge about how to do the job.  So ideally, if you want a Hesper
system to do traffic control, you take a vanilla Hesper system, set
it up with traffic control algorithms in its knowledge bank, and let
it rip.  It should do at least as well as you programmed it, and
fine-tune what you've given it as it gets more experienced.

This is consistent with some ways to do AI and how we think they'll
work once it hits the real world.

The various Hesper system running pieces of the world start
intergrating knowledge in strange and unexpected ways coming up with
dangerous new solutions to old problems.

This again is consistent with the way AI mechanisms work.  If you
accept the premise that AI systems can exchange knowledge and feed
it into their learning mechanisms, you can easily end up with the
situation described in Hogan's book.

For example, take the earth-moving system in Hogan's book.  It most
likely knows about explosives and has safety rules that will keep it
from detonating things of type "explosive" if people are in the
danger radius.  Then somehow, it integrates some knowledge from the
mass-accelerator system.  If the system doesn't classify the inert
projectile launched by the mass-accelerator as "explosive" it would
behave *exactly* as Hogan described.

How does it integrate this extra knowledge you ask?  Say it somehow
gets hold of ballistic trajectories for something launched by the
mass accelerator.  At this point, it just looks at them, figures out
the mass-accelerator can be used to move objects from the
accelerator to point X and stashes it somewhere under "plans for
moving objects".  Part of its job is to arrange to move bulldozers
and the like.  While solving other jobs involving moving equipment
around the mass-accelerator plans comes under consideration.  It
looks at it, and rejects it because of say, the acceleration stress
placed on anything launched.  However, in the process of examining
the plan (and other similar ones) it notices that the trajectory of
the launched object can be tweaked to deliver kinetic energy onto
point X.  At this point, it creates a new category of plans called
"Ways to move earth->kinetic energy delivery" and files the plan
there.

In comes the earth-moving request.  The systems examines the "Way to
move earth" plan categories and selects a number of them for
consideration.  Among them no doubt are "Explosives", "Earth-moving
equipment", and "Kinetic Energy Delivery".  There are undoubtedly
safety checks in the "Explosives" categories.  However, the "Kinetic
Energy Delivery" plans seem best and they have *no* safety checks on
them.  So the system then queries for additional constraints and
receives none.  It then issues the request to the mass-accelerator.
The mass- accelerator sees that the trajectory will result in a
danger radius so it checks to see if the area is registered as
"inhabited".  According to the referenced database, it isn't so the
lauch goes off on schedule.  Ka-boom!

The problem, of course, is that an expert system isn't really an
expert at all.  It's a problem-solving system.  You might say,
"Well, one of its constraints should be that people don't get hurt."
The problem is implementing that kind of constraint.  In order to do
that in a comprehensive way, you have tell it what people are,
enable it to track where they are, and tell it all the ways that
people can be hurt.  Then you have to set up some sort of review
system to reject plans where people get hurt efficiently.

The standard technique is to encode the restrictions with the
knowledge.  The problem crops up when the system starts adding
knowledge that should have restrictions on it, but the system isn't
"smart" enough to add the restrictions when it adds the knowledge.

As far as people not responding to the system better, this sad to
say, is also quite believable.  Just read mod.risks (aka
RISKS@CSL.SRI.COM).

FISE and Spartacus also seem reasonable given recent developments in
neural-net techniques.

One thing about Two Faces of Tomorrow.  Some people come across as
being fallible and unable to see all the implications.
Unfortunately, history is filled with examples of this, even in a
field as young as computer science.  Just look at the development of
collision detection/avoidance protocols (Aloha to CSMA/CD), or the
history of computer language development, or the history of
operating systems, or the OSI-network standards effort for some sad
examples.  People often miss (what later appears to be) the obvious.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 87 0931-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Jan 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bear & Donaldson & Duane & Farmer &
                    Foster & Gibson (2 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) &
                    Sagan & List of Award Winning Novels &
                    Suggestions & Multiple Worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 00:21:10 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Bear's pi-meters and Sagan's "Contact"

From: redford%rock.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
>Gene Ward Smith writes (as part of a negative review of "Contact"):
>>"I don't much mind if a poor sap like Greg Bear who knows not what
>>he does has a mathematician invent a pi-meter to detect changes in
>>the value of pi."
>
>Bear's pi-meter (which appeared in the novel "Eon") was a quite
>reasonable way to measure the local curvature of space.  Measure
>the circumference and diameter of something, divide them, and if
>the value is less than pi than space is positively curved, and if
>greater then space is negatively curved.

  I don't have "Eon" with me, but as I recall the "pi-meter" could
not reasonably be called a space curvature meter. Bear's heroine is
a Fields- metal winning mathematician, and a geometer in fact.
Obviously, she was capable of wanting to measure the Riemann tensor
of space curvature (3 dimensional) or space-time if that was what
was involved here. But she was not even measuring scalar curvature,
but changes in pi. Even if we define pi as circumference/diameter
(and would any mathematician do that?)  this does not work as a way
of measuring scalar curvature, because this "pi" depends on the
diameter of the circle used. Hence I concluded that Bear meant
exactly what he said--that pi was changing. And this is nonsense.

>By the way, I thought that the human science in "Contact" was done
>very well, and that it was nice description of how science really
>works.

  Parts of it were done well. It is this sort of thing which gives
me a sense of betrayal when obvious nonsense is introduced later on.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 20:11:59 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.csnet (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick stirling) writes:
>Also I thought he took a lot of ideas from Lord of the Rings, with
>close approximations to the names.Eg, Ranyhyn and Rohann (idea =
>amazing horses), the sentient forest, the journey under a mountain,
>even Souron and Lord Foul.

   I have to disagree here. There really isn't that much of a
similarity between Ranyhyn and Rohann other than the initial 'R',
and Donaldson's were far more magical creatures, not to mention far
more intelligent. The same is true of his forests, there is a big
difference between Fangorn and the Ents and Garrotting Deep and
Carroll Wildwood. I thought that the Forestals were one of the more
impressive creations in the series.
   The bit about the mountains, well, in Covenant they were looking
for something that happened to be under a mountain, in Tolkien they
were taking a shortcut. That mountains are present in each example
is simply a reflection of how humanity looks at mountains; as
wonderous, perhaps even magical, things.
   As for any similarities between Sauron and Lord Foul, they are
both bad guys. Other than that I don't see much in common. Not even
Melkor in all his power was as powerfull as Lord Foul, let alone
Sauron.
   Add to this the Bloodguard (my vote for the most original idea,
or at least the most powerfully brought to life), the lack of elves
( though again, you could argue that the Giants fullfilled this
function), and the amount of change that the main character goes
through and you get two totally different stories.
   At least, that's my opinion.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.csnet
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 15:25:00 GMT
From: heuring@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: When will Diane Duane finish?

Does anyone know when (if?) the next book in Diane Duane's "Door"
series is going to be published?  I've read the first two books and
have been waiting for the next.

Jerry Heuring

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 01:25:31 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Venus on the Half Shell

morganha@tekecs.TEK.COM (Morgan Hall) writes:
> life imitating art.  (Another example is the book "Venus on the
> Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout.  Kurt Vonnegut Jr. metioned it in
> one of his books, then wrote it under a pen name.)

No, Philip Jose Farmer wrote VENUS ON THE HALF SHELL, based on
Vonnegut's mention.  Also, Theodore Sturgeon wrote I, LIBERTINE
under the pseudonym Frederick R. Ewing after Jean Shepherd referred
to it so much on his show that people started asking for it in
bookstores.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 87 15:01:03 GMT
From: utastro!ethan@rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

It seems pointless to berate A.D. Foster for prostituting his
talent.  I have never seen *any* evidence that he can write more
interesting stories than he currently does.  For my own taste, the
function of his books seems to be to confuse people looking for M.A.
Foster.  I don`t dislike him for it and I don't expect any better
from him.

Ethan Vishniac
Dept of Astronomy
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 20:29:29 GMT
From: ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (TODD KUYKENDALL)
Subject: William Gibson paperback

   Hello,

   I'm writing (after being off the net for a while) and I just
thought I'd check in and see if anyone out there has any idea when
Gibson's second and third books are coming out in paperback. (
Specifically BURNING CHROME and COUNT ZERO ) I don't mean to step
into a potentially charged situation by brandising the much used
term cyber-punk, but I really (REALLY) enjoyed NEUROMANCER and would
appreciate any guide along these lines...

thanks in advance,
Tod Kuykendall

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 05:53:24 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: William Gibson paperback

>thought I'd check in and see if anyone out there has any idea when
>Gibson's second and third books are coming out in paperback. (
>Specifically BURNING CHROME and COUNT ZERO )

Count Zero is on Ace's April list, so it should hit the stores March
20.  Burning Chrome isn't on the lists yet (at least, according to
the spring announcements I have) so it won't be around until after
July.

You might also track down Bruce Sterling's anthology "Mirrorshades"
which is currently in hardback.  It is supposed to be a Cyberpunk
anthology.  I haven't read it, but I've heard good things.  I
believe it is from Arbor House, but I'm not positive.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 21:23:00 GMT
From: uicsrd!xia@rutgers.edu
Subject: Hogan, and his books

   I have been reading the comments about "The two faces of
Tomorrow".  I have read another book by Hogan: "Inheret the Stars".
I think both books are OK.  Hogan usually has good plots for his
books, but he has trouble hiding them.  What I mean is that the
average reader can easily guess what is going to happen in the end.
I guess the answer the plot correctly half way through reading
Inherent the Star.  He is just not very subtle at his style.
   In SF writing, one great danger is to write too much details
about the technical stuff.  I think it is not fair to critisize The
Two Faces of Tomorrow on its technical ground.  Most of the SF
stories either lack technical details or are about such grand
advanced projects(like the Ringworld).  The reason that people have
problem with The Two Faces of Tomorrow is that it is: (1) most
people in this group are computer experts so they tend to get anoyed
by some technical problems in the story.  (2) The events described
in the book is forseeable(not like the Ringworld) so there are more
technical grounds for the readers(expecially the experts in the
field) to get upset about it.  I will say compare to the technical
details of Star Trek, and millions of other SF stories you will see
how well The Two Faces of Tomorrow was written.
     Finally I will thank all the people who have sent me
suggestions about SF books.

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 87 18:21:40 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Hogan/Hitler: not an alternate WWII history

From: NNicoll.ES@Xerox.COM
>I am almost finished with Hogan's new book, "Proteus Operation" and
>it is good enough that I am sorry to see it end.  It has Hitler
>winning the war, losing the war, getting shrugged off as the madman
>he was and a few other twists as well.  Add this to your list of
>alternate WWII histories.

**another spoiler**

I was very disappointed with this book.  On about the 5th page I
said to myself "Oh no, he's not going to go to all this trouble to
do THAT, is he?"  I kept hoping for a twist, but he did do THAT.
What 'THAT' is, is having all this intervention from the future
combine to produce OUR timeline.  What a GREAT idea.  There are so
many interesting ways WWII could have come out better for us (and
the world in general) that I was let down that all Hogan had to
offer after all the mechanations of all the characters was our own
mediocre world.  Not really an alternate history.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 17:06:16 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: Contact

tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
>Gene, I disagree with your interpretation on two counts.  First,
>although you are obviously an expert on Pi (an I am not), I don't
>agree with you that the point of the circle image hidden in Pi was
>so much as a way of God communicating with humanity but rather --
>as the chapter in the book is titled -- simply a way of Him signing
>His work.

   Well, my point was not exactly this. Whether this was God, a
superrace which created the universe or what, and whether this was
or wasn't an attempt at communication, the point is that this is a
completely fantastic and illogical idea. Pi is pi; it is a constant,
not a variable. It cannot be modulated and used as a communication
channel or whatever. Pi, in other words (unlike, say, the fine
structure constant) is not a part of the created universe in the
first place.

  If pi was to be used as a communication channel, it should have
been in English or Hebrew or something of that sort. Then it would
have been possible to say that a very powerful being influenced us
so as to have a language which made us read a message into pi.
Ascii characters in English would have done the job very nicely.
But this "circle" business makes no sense.

>In fact, I bet Sagan's God is surprised and maybe slightly amused
>that there are people who would make a study out of Pi.

  I don't think Sagan saw his God as being that dumb.

>Of course, the people who send the Hitler message to Earth found
>the Pi circle, too, but I don't think they are "angels" of Sagan's
>God (i.e., their knowledge of the Pi circle is possibly independent
>of God's wishes).

  I think a very logical theory is that they are behind the whole
thing, including manipulation of our Cray 21 computers.

>For me, CONTACT was a great book for several reasons: strong female
>character (something rare in SF), interesting commentary on
>contemporary religion and the schism between science and theology,
>good solid writing.

   The feminism and commentary on religion and science often
degenerated into soap box oratory. But Sagan's point of view is not
one-dimensional and some interesting points and strange characters
were developed. As I said, I think the writing is a lot better than
the science, which is very strange.

Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 18:52:09 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: HUGO & NEBULA-winning novels?

jarvis@mit-caf.UUCP (Jarvis Jacobs) writes:
>Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W.
>CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels?

The Science Fiction Encyclopedia edited by Peter Nicholls has lists
up to, I believe about 1978.  I keep hoping that someone will update
this wonder one of these days.

Another book I've found with lots of neat data in it is the SF Book
of Lists.  You'll have to dig to find it, but it has all sorts of
strange trivia.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 23:21:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Thanks for the Suggestions

     So far I have received many many suggestions about SF books.
Almost all of them suggested Dune.  I got into Dune last year, and
to my disappointment, it is let's say, very discersive(sp?)  I think
I agree with one of my friends who said that Herbert definitely read
a lot of books, but Dune was like a literary critique written by a
second year college student.  The student did not really understand
what the work is all about, but he/she went to library and dug out
all the essays about the work, and lumped all the ideas together
with some transitional phrases.  Unfortunately, I found it to be
true.  Moreover, I think the reason why they cannot make a movie out
of it is because there are too many things being discussed in the
book but none in depth.
     Many of you asked me what I mean by big stories.  I think this
is hard for me to define precisely.  I can only give some examples:
Ren. with Rama.  The Gods themselves.  2001.  For all the SF I have
read, I like Ren. with Rama the best.  That is the best example of
what I mean by big story.  It is also a real scientific story.  It
does not assume any fancy wiggits whose working mechanism cannot be
understood(Well, except the gravity drive but that wiggit is not
really essential to the big space ship).  The story gives the reader
some real impression of how big the universe is.  I mean that we all
know that the universe is BIG, XXX light years this way and that
way, but it is just numbers.  When I think about the universe it is
always no bigger than my brain.  But this story really gives the
reader some glimpse of the vastness of the universe, and our
position in it.
     Many of you had suggested Heinlein's work.  As some of you have
suggested I have just finished reading The Puppet Master.  I don't
think it is well written.  It is of typical 50's cold war mentality.
I have not read any critics about that book, but I do have an
impression that this is basically a communism VS. capitalism story.
The slugs refered to themselves as "people" and the guys, and girls
fighting the slugs keep saying "free man".  Well, has anyone read
any critique about this book yet?  I may be reading more into the
story than there really is.  I basically think this is a not so good
version of SF 1984.

eugene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jan 87 21:30:40 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: HF (Hitler Fiction)
To: mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.RUTGERS.EDU

  The earliest multiple worlds story that mentioned Hitler is _Earth
is Room Enough_ by Isaac Asimov.  This was actually written during
World War II, so I guess Asimov didn't know which branch we would
end up on when he wrote it.
  There is also Gregory Benford's _Century of Progress_ and James
Hogan's _The Proteus Operation_, both of which involve World War II
being extended through time and space.
  I read a short story, I don't recall who it was by or what it was
called, in which Hitler is sent one day back through time over and
over again to form an Army for himself, as a result of which he dies
of old age the same day.

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 87 0817-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:

            Books - Baldwin & Brust & Eddings (2 msgs) &
                    Herbert & Martin & Mitchell & O'Donnell &
                    Sagan & Sheffield & Book Requests (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 21:01:31-PST
From: Steve Oliphant <OLIPHANT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Bill Baldwin

About 2 years ago Bill Baldwin wrote a book called "The Helsman". It
was surprisingly good. Has he written any other books? Is there a
sequel coming out? In other words, what has he been doing lately?
Thanks.

Steven Oliphant
oliphant@sumex-aim.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 08:51:38 PST (Wednesday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Teckla

>I just gotta set one thing straight--at no time, in Jar-head, did
>Cawti perform an assassination.  She helped Vlad, she made a
>supposed offer to do an assassination, and like that.  But she
>never performed an actual murder-for-pay.

Arguing with the author about what he meant seems patently foolish
on the face of it, but...

She did perform a quick and efficient murder in Jhereg, though! (one
of Mellar's guards, I believe...) She may have done this for the
sake of her husband and perhaps for a little chance to practice the
old trade, but without much moral reservation that I could see. This
could hardly be termed self defense, or moral outrage at the guard,
or any of several 'acceptable' motives for murder. It was killing
without compunction for personal gain (perhaps not gold coins, but
certainly coin of another sort! Acceptance, her husband's continued
survival, greed for the 65k in gold, whatever): Assassination!

Webster's definition: Assassinate, n. 1. To murder by sudden and
secret attack usually for impersonal reasons. 2. To injure or
destroy unexpectedly or treacherously

She even smiled her "I know something you don't know..." smile while
agreeing to do it. Who knows, though, maybe this guard used to spend
his time oppressing the masses in the easterner's quarter on his
days off.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 19:22:14 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Belgariad loose ends

Is there any serious doubt that Errand is a Godling?  He calls Ul
"father", though this is quickly and clumsily glossed over.  Zedar,
one of the top ten sorcerors alive (sort of), can't remember where
he found him.  His miscellaneous talents include mind control and
untying anything.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 02:49:30 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu
Subject: David Eddings and _The Malleorean_

>I have nearly finished _The_Begariad_ series written by David
>Eddings, and have not been able to find any other books written by
>the author.  I did so enjoy the series that I want to read more!

A friend who is on a number of review lists has just received
advance uncorrected proofs for _Guardians of the West_, the first
volume of _The Malleorean_, the new series from Eddings. It occurs
after the _Belgariad_, but I know none of the details. It appears,
however, that something has gone completely wrong with the prophecy.
I do not know when it is due out, but would guess around three
months, maybe much less. I also do not know how long it will be.
Sorry this is so sparse, but, hey.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 16:50:42 GMT
From: gloria@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Gloria Anthony)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #20

> Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better
> than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it.

Well, I for one was somewhat impressed by DUNE, considering it one
of the, say, thirty best S.F. books I had read.  I was, however,
increasingly less impressed with the sequels.  I mean, come on, SON
OF DUNE, GRANDSON OF DUNE, WASHERWOMAN OF DUNE, SECOND COUSIN OF
DUNE MEETS FRANKENSTEIN . . .

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 13:41:05 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: WILD CARDS I by George R. R. Martin

             WILD CARDS I edited by George R. R. Martin
                        Bantam Spectra, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     What if?  What if?  What if...after World War II aliens had
dropped a virus that caused all sorts of mutations.  (Space aliens,
that is, not German aliens or Japanese aliens.)  90% of the
mutations are fatal, but the other 10%--they are the "wild cards."

     The form of this, uh, book is unusual.  It's called a "mosaic
novel."  No, that doesn't mean it's based on the Biblical books of
Moses.  It is rather a collection of short stories and connecting
threads set in this alternate universe.  The stories are more
strongly connected (in the mathematical sense) than other shared
universe collections I have seen, with characters from one story
appearing in others.  On the other hand, the stories are presented
with their own titles, and a table of contents would be helpful for
finding your way around.

     And how is this alternate world different from ours?  Not much.
McCarthy goes after the "wild cards" along with his other targets.
Even among the wild cards themselves there is factionalism.  There
are the "aces," those with valuable powers such as teleportation or
great strength.  And there "jokers," those whose mutations are
disfiguring, such as reptilian skin or feline face.  The jokers are
outcasts, treated as sub-human by most people, restricted to
Jokertown, dumped on by the police--if this sounds familiar, it is.
"Strings" by Stephen Leigh is the story of the Jokers' Rights
Movement, but it is also the story of the march on the Winter
Palace, and of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and of the marches in
Selma, and of the Stonewall riot.

     In the end the value of WILD CARDS is not what it says about
superheroes, but what it says about us.  If there were superheroes,
we would use them and mistrust them and mistreat them as much as we
do anyone else.  And WILD CARDS reminds us that finding a new group
to persecute does not end the persecution of the old groups.  As
with all good science fiction, it uses that which is fantastical to
reflect reality.  It gives us the ability to see ourselves as
outsiders would see us.  If we see the "jokers" persecuted simply
because they are "different" and we empathize with them, perhaps we
can translate this back to our own lives.  And what if we did?  Now
THERE'S a "what if?" I'd like to see!

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 13:41:38 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: NEW BARBARIANS by Keith Mitchell

                  NEW BARBARIANS by Kirk Mitchell
                         Ace, 1986
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The premise of PROCURATOR was that the Roman Empire never fell
(something to do with Pilate pardoning some obscure teacher or
something).  This sequel continues that idea, but does even less
with it than PROCURATOR.  In both novels, the plot consists mostly
of battles.  Although the weaponry is somewhat mechanized, the books
are basically stories of the Roman legions against the
barbarians--in NEW BARBARIANS, the Aztecans.

     The gimmick of having all sorts of well-known places have Latin
names and of having people with Roman names ruling the world (still
under an emperor, no less) is starting to wear thin.  There is no
indication of any change in Roman ways over the last 2000 years, in
spite of enormous technological change (up to about the World War II
level) and extensive contact with other civilizations.  And, as I
said in my review of PROCURATOR, one may argue that the fall of the
Roman Empire was caused as much by its own size in an era before
modern communications as by any external religious movement.  Oh,
and in NEW BARBARIANS they're just realizing--after 2000 years--that
lead plumbing and utensils are poisonous.  I find this interesting
only because it wasn't mentioned at all in PROCURATOR and I
commented on it in my review of that novel.  Is it possible Mitchell
is reading my reviews?  And the Aztecs also are still the same as
when Cortez "discovered" them--or at any rate, still the same as the
popular image of what they were.  I suspect that the actual Aztec
society was very different from the popular conception.  In
addition, the Aztecs were relative new-comers when Cortez arrived,
and it strikes me as unlikely that they, rather than other
Amerindian societies, would have survived the intervening 500 years.
My money would be on the Incans to have expanded their empire north.

     NEW BARBARIANS, like PROCURATOR, is probably of interest mostly
to readers who enjoy setting up fictional conflicts ("What if the
Romans had fought the Aztecs?"  "What if the Klingons had fought the
Kzinti?").  As an alternate history novel that actually tries to
predict a fully-realized alternate history from a small change, it
doesn't make it.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 87 20:23:08 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu
Subject: FBR and McGill Feighan: a popular form of SF TPF

abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott) writes:
> I don't have the books here with me but these are a series of 4
> books by Kevin (I believe) O'Donnell about the adventures of
> McGill Feighan.  If some of those names aren't spelled wrong I'm
> amazed.  Titles are "Cliffs", "Lava", "Caverns", and "Reefs", not
> in that order.  A good, fun, silly read.

You got it all right.  The order (I think) is Caverns, Reefs, Lava
and Cliffs.  I will note that I found the first of the books to be
the best in the series.  As FBR becomes less mysterious, it becomes
less interesting.  In the last book, McGill seems to have found out
FBR's species, and to have had a direct contact from it, thanking
him for his aid.  Of course, at the end of EACH of the books, McGill
thinks he has figured out what FBR is up to, and he's been wrong
each time, so I have hope he's wrong again.

*** mild spoilers in the rest of the posting ***

The first book in particular is full of comically presented
background material, like why McGill Feighan's name seems to be
backwards, what his family and upbringing was like, the nature of
being a flinger, and so on and on.  The other books lack some of the
sparkle of the first, but are still very worthwhile.

I'll also note some cross-references that occured to me some time
ago between the FBR and other series.  First, the protagonist of the
M.A.Foster "Morphodite" series.  The protagonist of that series has
an ability to calculate the consequences of seemingly
inconsequential acts, so that one character comments (paraphrased)
"he could move a trashcan a meter across the room, and you'd never
see the chain of events that would sweep you away and destroy you
utterly".  This is a very interesting thing to contemplate.  The
Morphodite eventually is able to, literally, move a paperweight on a
table a few centimeters and thereby affect the whole future of human
civilization.

It seems to me that FBR has a similar "feel" to it of devastating
power arising from trivial acts.  In the whole series of books, FBR
has only done two concrete things that I caught: showed an interest
in Feighan at the start, and personally appeared on the scene
(thousands of years ago) to a species that eventually would meet
Feighan.  Yet FBR's opponents never see the chain of events that
eventually sweep them from the stage, even when they are (or perhaps
BECAUSE they are) expecting unbelievably subtle ploys.  (Supposedly,
FBR is taking such an indirect role because it is busy elsewhere
attempting to prevent or shorten a war that it expects to occur in a
few hundred years...)

And then, of course, the Tactics of Mistake from the Childe cycle,
by Dickson.  The line about not bothering scholars, because they
consider all your guns, and armies, and power to be mere conceptual
toys is particularly apt in this connection.

And how about Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality of Mankind, which
sort of governs by not governing (for the most part, sort of,
usually...) Or Asimov's psychohistory from the Foundation series.
Slight relationships there, too.

Of course, all of these are the most marvelous of Teen Power
Fantasies.  To be able to see so deeply into the nature of things so
as to be practically invulnerable, to be the fulcrum about which the
universe pivots.  A really great, trashy, cheap thrill, isn't it?
Ghod, I love it!!!

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 87 22:30:49 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Contact
To: sdcrdcf!markb@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)

>The whole bit about the picture of the circle embedded in the
>digits of PI is just an example of what he would except as
>evidence.

  Ah, but how could you tell it wasn't just chance?  That pattern is
virtually sure to turn up eventually if you search deeply enough.
Quite likely every finite sequence of digits appears sooner or later
in pi, including (the binary representation of) the complete works
of Shakespeare, and the complete SF-Lovers archives - including this
message.  Of course you might have to search pretty deeply.
  There are conclusions other than the existence of God that such a
phenomenon could support.  For instance that one is a character in a
novel.  It bothers me that many really bright people in various
books and movies never figure out that they are fictional
characters.  If Spock is so smart and so logical, why hasn't he
noticed the 20th century TV format, inconsistencies, and mock-logic
of his universe?
  There are a few cases where characters have reached the correct
conclusion, for instance in Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks Through
Walls_ and in Robert Anton Wilson's _Shrodinger's Cat_ trilogy (in
which some of the characters have mysterious "out of book"
experiences.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 05:10:44 GMT
From: amdahl!chuck@rutgers.edu (Charles Simmons)
Subject: Recommendation

I recently read a book which I found to be quite a bit better than
the usual pulp I wade through, so I thought I'd recommend it.  The
book is "The Nimrod Hunt" by Charles Sheffield.

Just so you'll know whether or not you share my tastes: I love
Zelazny, Orson Scott Card, some Spinrad, some Sturgeon.  I hate
Donaldson, Jack Vance, and Poul Anderson.  I like Gibson and Hogan.
And I can no longer abide Heinlein.

Chuck

------------------------------

Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 14:54:30-EST
From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet)
Subject: "We Also Walk Dogs"

During the recent responses to the 'bad businessman' question, two
people (so far) have mentioned a story called "We Also Walk Dogs."

I remember a story (author unknown) in which a company which will do
anything for you (such as walk your dog, throw a party, or I think
arrange for you to be in two places at the same time) is contracted
by the government to arrange a meeting of various alien races.  They
solve the problem with some sort of gravity-simulator.

Is this the same story ?  I remember reading it in a collection of
short stories by this author.  They each presented some sort of
problem which had to be overcome using creative science.

Any help out there ?

eric j simon
wesleyan university
wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 04:59:25 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Looking for a book: The Company of Adventurers

Mike Resnick is currently searching for a book he needs for research
purposes on one of his novels.  If you know where a copy of "The
Company of Adventurers" by John Boyes, published in England in 1928,
can be found, please let me know.

Thanks,

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 87 0833-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:

         Miscellaneous - Writing for Money's Sake (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 07:50:08 GMT
From: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Subject: Writing for money's sake

I've noticed a disturbing tendency in writers of SF these days.
This may have been discussed here before, but if so, I haven't seen
it, and thought I'd bring it up.  (Let me preface these remarks by
saying that all estimations of literary merit are MINE, although
others may share them.  I'm avoiding the debate on objective merit)

I'm referring to what I call "Piers Anthony syndrome", or writing
for the sake of a fast buck.  What usually happens is that an author
comes out with a book or small series that tells a good story, and
tells it reasonably well.  So, the sales of the book take off, and
the author, sensing that lots of people just can't find anything
better to do with their money, writes endless sequels to the book,
each one containing less plot and more canned action.

A perfect example of this is P.A. and the Xanth "trilogy".  _A Spell
for Chameleon_ was a reasonable book, with a light tone and
entertaining puns.  The two following books were at least partially
well thought out, with a somewhat less appealing mix of plot,
characters, etc.  Of course, we all know what followed: a still
continuing outpouring of half-finished, poorly written, nauseatingly
cute stories, whose only redeeming quality is that they make a ready
supply of tinder for those cold winter nights.

Other examples include Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" series,
which had two well-done (in my opinion) books (_Spellsinger_ and
_The Hour of the Gate_) but has worn down into just another series,
although not to the extent of the Xanth works.  Also, Christopher
Stasheff's "Warlock" series seems to fall into this vein, and even
Isaac Asimov's attempt to connect the "Robots" series with the
"Foundation" series could be viewed as such, although I personally
don't think so.  Even if it is, the quality of the books has not
dropped much, at least in my opinion.  Perhaps this is due to the
long time span over which the books were written.

The whole inspiration for this came when I finished the "Pelmen the
Powershaper" trilogy by Robert Don Hughes.  I enjoyed the series
highly, until the final chapter.  Hughes had actually killed several
of his main characters, and I was happy to be feeling meloncholy
about the loss of the hero, when out of the blue (or is that Deus Ex
Machina?)  >POOF< all the principals needed for a continuation were
made alive...I don't want to spoil the story, so I won't go into it
more here.  Suffice it to say that in three pages, the groundwork
was laid for a sequel.

So, the question is (and this may relate to the literary merit
debate which I've been avoiding): Why do authors feel a need to
endlessly continue stories, in spite of the downward effect it has
on the quality of the stories?  When Ged mounted the back of
Kalessin, in Ursula K. LeGuin's _The Farthes Shore_, and the
Doorkeeper said "He has done with doing.  He goes home." I thought
it was wonderful.  He obviously deserved a rest, and I'm glad he got
it.

Well, this has gone on more than long enough.  I have more examples,
but I'll let someone else have the floor...

Steve Chapin
ARPA:  sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu
UUCP:  ...!purdue!sjc

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 00:23:51 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) writes:
>I'm referring to what I call "Piers Anthony syndrome", or writing
>for the sake of a fast buck.  What usually happens is that an
>author comes out with a book or small series that tells a good
>story, and tells it reasonably well.  So, the sales of the book
>take off, and the author, sensing that lots of people just can't
>find anything better to do with their money, writes endless sequels
>to the book, each one containing less plot and more canned action.

Substitute "artist" for "author", and "work" for "story/book" and
you've stated my sentiments on popularity.  This goes for music,
"fine" art, writing, and just about every product you can name.

> [Proof with Asimov's Foundation, Stasheff's Warlock, et al]

I'd also add Heinlein, Phil Collins, Aretha, and the Talking Heads.

>So, the question is [...]  Why do authors feel a need to endlessly
>continue stories, in spite of the downward effect it has on the
>quality of the stories?

You said it yourself: money.  The only other excuse I can think of
is that the artist says to himself, "Gee, everyone's buying my last
work; I guess that means it's good," and spends the next N years
trying to duplicate the success.  Are there any popular artists (as
defined above) out there who can provide a better explanation, or
who outright disagree?

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 18:30:23 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

   Why do novelists have to continually produce "litrichure"?  Does
the average computer professional consistently produce top-quality,
state-of-the-art software or research papers?  (Notice the careful
use of the word "average," which was calculated to prevent people
with overly large egos from saying "I do!")  Not typically-- I
personally spend more time telling people, for example, that they
used the wrong 'tar' option; not thrilling stuff, but it puts food
on the table.  Why should writers (or artists in general) be any
different?  (Well, maybe because they have more of their selves tied
into their work than I do, but that's for further discussion...)

Joel
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 19:49:55 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP writes:
>   Why do novelists have to continually produce "litrichure"?  Does
>the average computer professional consistently produce top-quality,
>state-of-the-art software or research papers?

Personally speaking, while I don't write programs that are genius,
nor even incredibly useful, when I am told 'Write a program that
does A, B, and C', I will often spend hours after the program is
written, making it easier to use, faster, or just easier to read.  I
expect a writer, who has just written something that's not
'litrichure' to keep re-writing, re-reading, editing, and
proofreading until he produces something that IS.  And, if the story
refuses to be good, he should start looking for a new story.  Or a
new profession.

>Not typically-- I personally spend more time telling people, for
>example, that they used the wrong 'tar' option; not thrilling
>stuff, but it puts food on the table.  Why should writers (or
>artists in general) be any different?

There is a basic difference between your (yes, and my) job, and that
of an artist: there's some joker upstairs telling you to explain
'tar' options.  If you had your choice between explaining 'tar'
options and, *strictly* for example, creating a program that
*redefines* programming itself (as a good piece of Art may be able
to do), which would you do?  While putting food on the table is
admirable (especially these days), Art should do something *more*,
don't you think?

seismo!nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 13:13:40 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

I agree art should be something more than just a 9-to-5 job.
However, I don't agree that everything an individual writer does has
to be art.  If Piers Anthony, say, can put enough money in the bank
by writing Xanth novels to give him the luxury of taking the time to
do the endless writing, rewriting, and editing one poster seemed to
think a more significant work required, that's fine by me.  I know
where to turn for reviews of new works so that I can maximize my
chances of reading wheat instead of chaff.  I also know that if the
public at large is willing to buy more chaff than wheat, then I
can't blame the poor (figuratively and -- often -- literally) writer
from selling a little chaff on the side.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 19:46:16 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

I've quoted this before, but I think it bears quoting again
(apologies to the author for the gross errors that have no doubt
wrecked the music of the original poem):

     I asked him how can you know
     if anything you write is any good
     he said you can't you can never know
     you die without knowing if anything
     you wrote is any good
     if you have to know don't write

        from "Berryman," by
           W. S. Merwin

By the way, I'm still planning on replying to Charlie Martin's most
recent posting. I'm still `thinking on it,' as we say down here.

Cheers,

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 16:54:08 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
>I agree art should be something more than just a 9-to-5 job.
>However, I don't agree that everything an individual writer does
>has to be art.  If Piers Anthony, say, can put enough money in the
>bank by writing Xanth novels to give him the luxury of taking the
>time to do the endless writing, rewriting, and editing one poster
>seemed to think a more significant work required, that's fine by
>me.  I know where to turn for reviews of new works so that I can
>maximize my chances of reading wheat instead of chaff.  I also know
>that if the public at large is willing to buy more chaff than
>wheat, then I can't blame the poor (figuratively and -- often --
>literally) writer from selling a little chaff on the side.

I agree--like you said, "a guy's gotta eat".  But, you assume that
by tossing out some 'chaff', the artist can continue to put out some
'wheat'.  This rarely happens, in my exerience.  More often, after
a big success, the artist worries more about the bread than the
wheat.  (Not always, I admit--Wm. Falkner is one exception.)  Can you
*really* produce garbage, and have it not affect your Art?

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 18:14:26 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

Steve Chapin writes:
> [Long discussion, with examples, of bad "sequalitis"]
> Why do authors feel a need to endlessly continue stories, in spite
> of the downward effect it has on the quality of the stories?

I can think of two reasons.  The first is that it is easier to write
a sequel than it is to think up new characters and universes.  This
is the author's fault.  The second, and more important, is the
readers' fault: publishers have discovered that it is easer to
market a sequel than a new story, because readers are more likely to
buy something they feel familiar with than to try something new.

Sometimes sequels are justified, when the original story had some
unexplored areas in it which warrant further development.  I agree
with Steve, though, that this is rare, that most authors' motives
are not so pure, and that Piers Anthony is one of the worst
offenders.  I also agree that Asimov's 6 volume (so far) Foundation
Trilogy is one of the exceptions.

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 05:40:05 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>But, you assume that by tossing out some 'chaff', the artist can
>continue to put out some 'wheat'...  Can you *really* produce
>garbage, and have it not affect your Art?

Well, Robert Silverberg went through something like a hack period
well before he wrote, for example, The Book of Skulls or Lord
Valentine's Castle.  One example doesn't refute a general rule
unless you're insanely logical, of course.  Of further interest:
Silverberg has said that it was very difficult to write carefully
and deliberately after his hack "training".  Perhaps this example
actually supports the position that it is at least dangerous to your
art to resort to hackery to live -- perhaps writers should make
their livings by means other than prostituting their main talent.

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet: ...viper!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 18:03:06 GMT
From: sunybcs!alin@rutgers.edu (Alin Sangeap)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes:
>> Why do authors feel a need to endlessly continue stories, in
>> spite of the downward effect it has on the quality of the
>> stories?
>I can think of two reasons.  The first is that it is easier to
>write a sequel than it is to think up new characters and universes.
>This is the author's fault.  (then #2)
>
>Sometimes sequels are justified, when the original story had some
>unexplored areas in it which warrent further development.

Stories set in the present (that is, non-SF) usually have similar
characters and universes, but aren't considered follow-ups.  Novels
often have built-in sequels: the second half is more of the same
thing, without any change.

The downward effect does not have to happen, unless the author stops
thinking.  In sf it generally is puniness of vision: just because
the technology is fixed doesn't mean everything is unchanging (for
one thing, there are fads to consider).

Stories planned as a series are more uniform in quality (probably
good).  And the technology can vary more: different groups of the
society (nations, maybe) can have different technologies and the
access to technology can vary (with profession, for example), and
writers can skip time in stories (so technology can develop).

The last one is my favorite.  Many great sequences of stories have
been planned and writen on one subject as it develops over time.
And some incredible ones develop the past and present as well
(instead of just the future); the obligatory names: Simak, Douglas
Adams, Gerard Klein.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 12:55:07 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

Kaufman asks an intriguing question: "Can you really produce garbage
and not have it affect your art?"  Well, garbage is a pretty strong
word.  But I do think it's possible to do both commercial writing
and literature.  In my own case, the commercial writing takes the
form of magazine journalism and corporate work.  Granted it's easier
to keep that separate from my science fiction than it might be for
someone who tries to write both commercial SF and literary SF.
Another example: one of Canada's better known SF writers -- a person
I consider an artist indeed -- writes trashy, commercial Romance
novels under a pseudonym.  Consider, also, the late James Blish, who
used to knock off STAR TREK novelizations before breakfast, and who
also wrote some truly great SF -- CITIES IN FLIGHT and, especially,
A CASE OF CONSCIENCE.  (Granted, he wrote his best SF before he
started doing commercial work, so maybe he's not a great example).
David Gerrold is another such case: most of what he does strikes me
as calculatingly commercial (for instance, publishing the outline of
one of his rejected STAR TREK stories in the book THE TROUBLE WITH
TRIBBLES and then novelizing it under a misleading title that really
has nothing to do with the book -- THE GALACTIC WHIRLPOOL -- to make
readers think it's something they haven't read before) but, every
once in a while, he'll come out with a true work of art, like
YESTERDAY'S CHILDREN or THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Jan 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 87 07:55 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION

*****SPOILER******

Tucked away under a review of "Out on a limb" and a column about
channel 60 becoming channel 50, is a less than 2' square article in
Friday's Chicago Tribune entitled "New 'Star Trek' blasts off in
April (byline Marilyn Beck) Hollywood-"Star Trek: The Next
Generation" is set to blast into production in April--for debut as a
syndicated TV show this fall.
  Casting has not been completed, but it's known that Leonard Nimoy,
William Shatner and others from the original "Star Trek" WILL NOT BE
MAKING GUEST APPEARANCES.

Caps in last line mine.
rich jervis c78kck@irismvs

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 87 11:48:22 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV; Constitution vs. Constellation class

billp@elxsi.UUCP (Bill Petro) writes:
>ihm@minnie.UUCP (Ian Merritt) writes:
>>Not to stir up the dust again (though I am sure it will) the STIV
>>book makes reference to the Constellation class when refering to
>>the Enterprise II.
>  The Enterprise has always been called a Constitution class ship
>in many previous sources, "The Making of Star Trek", "The Star Trek
>Technical Manual", etc.

Surely this conversation is at cross purposes here? STIV hasn't yet
been released in the UK, and I haven't read the book, but nothing
discussed on this subject seems to suggest (to me!) that Enterprise
II *must* be the same class of ship as the original Enterprise.  If
I'm not making any sense to ST addicts here, I probably just don't
have all the necessary information, so please keep the flames away
from a poor ignorant enthusiast!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 87 05:02:06 GMT
From: oswego!kinne@rutgers.edu (Richard Kinne)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades

>sam@bu-cs.UUCP (Shelli Meyers) writes:
>Yes, Kirk was a full Admiral.  Note that his rank insignia was a
>circle with 4 triangles (points, whatever-you-want-to-call-them)
>coming out of the center.  Note also that Commander, Star Fleet had
>one with 5 of them.  In all of the ST technical manuals I've leafed
>through, I've seen that Rear-Admiral is the circle with 2
>triangles, Vice-Admiral is the circle with 3 triangles.  For the
>rank of Commodore I've seen a contradiction.  I seem to remember in
>one book, it was the circle with 1 triangle, and in another, it was
>similar to the Captain insignia (from the movies) with 2
>additionial triangles coming off of the sides.
>
>In the first book, where the Commodore insignia was the circle and
>one triangle, this was the insignia for Fleet Captain.  In the book
>with this as Commodore, there was no such rank as Fleet Captain at
>the time the movies took place, but there was one before it.  Any
>ideas why?

   What ST technical manuals???  What books???  The only thing I've
ever seen with pictures of rank insignia is the Star Fleet Technical
Manual.  From what books are you getting the new movie
information????

Richard Kinne
Instructional Computing Center
SUNY College at Oswego
Oswego NY 13126  (315)341-3055
{sunybcs|allegra!warrior|seismo!rochester!rocksvax}oswega!kinne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 87 16:50:51 PST
From: stewart@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: STAR TREK IV

   I'm running a bit behind in my reading and someone may have made
this suggestion already, but here's my two cents for what it's
worth.
   People keep asking how Uhura could have heard the whale song
through communications.  I don't remember the details of the
aquarium well, but weren't they broadcasting the whalesong over
speakers at the exhibit?  Could that somehow have been done using
transmiter/receiver?  At the very least the sound had to be
converted to electrical energy to run the speakers.

   As to STIV being the greatest, I disagree.  I much preferred
STII, and even liked STI better in many ways.  STIII I found rather
cloying (and the new Saavik terribly disappointing).  What I didn't
like about STIV was the feeling of being right back at the beginning
when we reached the end.  Not only had they gotten rid of the
possible new blood to carry on the story and let the plots expand
beyond Kirk/Spock adventures in heroism, they managed to get rid of
everyone but the bridge crew!  Then we got back the old Enterprise.
I think the show just went through a timewarp and they slipped back
20 years.

   I would really like to see the development of new characters, the
shift of responsibility to younger shoulders, the inclusion of more
pivotal female characters (the black woman captain was great, but
the part a bit limited), and more exploration in new arenas--new
races, new value systems, going ahead not back!

P. K. Stewart

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 87 15:50 CDT
From: "FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: RE: Star Trek Time Travel

Kurt Geisel states:
>> There are two known methods of going into the past in Star Trek:
>> The Guardian and the old Square-Dance-Around-A-Star method.
>There is a third method, although I don't remember exactly what
>they called it or which episode it was in, although I THINK it
>might have been where some virus or something got on board which
>was making everyone go crazy. They were in a decaying orbit and
>someone had shut off the engines.  Apparently, the engines need
>about 30 minutes or so to start back up.  They had less time than
>that before they burned up so Spock tried an unproven theory to
>cold start the antimatter reactor, which might result in implosion.
>After they did, (and it worked of course) Sulu noticed the
>chronometer running backwards.  Kirk logged it as a good way to get
>to other times...

and Eleanor Evans said:

>>When the Bounty came back to the future from the 20th century, for
>>a few minutes, they were there before they had left. This could
>>lead to interesting occurences, if explored further...
>As I recall, there was one Star Trek episode in which the
>Enterprise ended up going back in time three days.  They were
>trying to escape the gravitational pull of some planet (that, or
>the planet was about to go boom, I forget which).  Eventually,
>Spock mixed matter and antimatter, and they ended up going back in
>time.  Does anyone recall this episode?

Well, I think I've seen just about enough of this.  Someone else may
have brought this up earlier, but let's see if I can't put this to
bed.

There were 4 ways (out of the original TV series) that the
Enterprise and/or her crew could travel in time.

   1.) The time portal in the library of Mr. Atoz on Sarpeidon.
       From episode: All Our Yesterdays (Mariette Hartley was
       in this one)

   2.) The time portal of the Guardian of Forever.  From episode:
       The City on the Edge of Forever (with Joan Collins, of
       course)

   3.) The slingshot effect (as demonstrated in STIV): From
       episode: Tomorrow is Yesterday

   4.) Matter/antimatter cold-mix pull-out-of-a-decaying-orbit effect:
       From episode: The Naked Time.

No. 4 is the episode being referred to in the above messages.  If
you want a full synopsis, e-mail me.  Briefly, a water-borned virus
spreads thru some of the Enterprise crew affecting Lt. Riley, who
locks himself in Engineering. Riley shuts down the engines and the
orbit of the Enterprise begins to decay around Psi 2000, a planet
about to disintegrate.  Matter and antimatter need about 30 minutes
to "warm up" prior to being ready to use, but because of the urgency
of the method, Scotty tries a "cold start".  This causes the
Enterprise and crew to enter a warp which takes them back 3 days,
forcing them to live the last 3 days over again.

This does bring up the interesting question of what happens when
they again get to the point of having to start the engines again.
Or is it not their destiny to have that happen?  Or is it and are
they really stuck in an infinite loop somewhere?  Or has someone
already discussed this on the net and I'm just making a fool of
myself???...

Warren M. Iwamoto
iwamoto%forest@ti-eg.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 87 09:16:44 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_ajpo@rutgers.edu (Milamber)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Time-Line and Command Grades

kinne@oswego.UUCP (Doc Kinne) writes:
>What ST technical manuals???  What books???  The only thing I've
>ever seen with pictures of rank insignia is the Star Fleet
>Technical Manual.  From what books are you getting the new movie
>information????

Go to a Star Trek convention.  They have a few books at the dealer
tables with some of these pictures.  Some of the books deal strictly
with the uniforms, others are technical manuals.  But like I said
previously regarding the Commodore/Fleet Captain rank insignia for
the movie period, I am unsure of the books in which I've seen those
pictures.

Joe Ogulin
UUCP: {seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins}!jhunix!ins_ajpo
ARPA: ins_ajpo%jhunix@hopkins-eecs-bravo.ARPA
BITNET: ins_ajpo@jhunix.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 87 11:09:57 EST
From: Steepmt@apg-5
Subject: Star Trek IV - Whalesong

Ed Lorden <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> writes:
>I just want to state that sound CANNOT travel through a vacuum.  It
>is impossible.  Sound needs a medium of some sort to travel
>through, water, or air.  So you must conclude that the Whalesong
>picked up by the Bounty, i.e. the Bird of Prey that the "valiant"
>crew was in, was not transmitted as sound.  Frankly, I don't care
>how it was picked up.  But, for this to be discussed, the laws of
>science that we now accept must, in some way must be accounted for.

As I remember, there was no mention that they were receiving the
actual sounds of the whalesong.  Spock stated something to the
effect that the signals being received were that of a whalesong and
radio waves travel very well in space.  Besides, space is *not* a
*vacuum*.  There are a multitude of atoms in space.  They are
sufficiently separated that it is called a vacuum, but there has
never been a total vacuum with nothing in it.

Kurt Geisel <KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET> writes:

>There is a third method, although I don't remember exactly what
>they called it or which episode it was in, although I THINK it
>might have been where some virus or something got on board which
>was making everyone go crazy. They were in a decaying orbit and
>someone had shut off the engines.  Apparently, the engines need
>about 30 minutes or so to start back up.  They had less time than
>that before they burned up so Spock tried an unproven theory to
>cold start the antimatter reactor, which might result in implosion.
>After they did, (and it worked of course) Sulu noticed the
>chronometer running backwards.  Kirk logged it as a good way to get
>to other times...

I can't remember the name of the episode either, but this did occur.
It is essentially the same as the *Dance around the Star*.  Rather
than using the gravitational field of a star, they were using the
collapsing gravitational field of the planet for the same purpose.
The theory is the same, but the actual object is different.

William L. Johnson
steepmt@apg-5.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 06:44:58 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: STAR TREK IV

stewart@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA says:
>As to STIV being the greatest, I disagree.  I much preferred STII,
>and even liked STI better in many ways.  STIII I found rather
>cloying (and the new Saavik terribly disappointing).  What I didn't
>like about STIV was the feeling of being right back at the
>beginning when we reached the end.  Not only had they gotten rid of
>the possible new blood to carry on the story and let the plots
>expand beyond Kirk/Spock adventures in heroism, they managed to get
>rid of everyone but the bridge crew!  Then we got back the old
>Enterprise.  I think the show just went through a timewarp and they
>slipped back 20 years.
>   I would really like to see the development of new characters,
>the shift of responsibility to younger shoulders, the inclusion of
>more pivotal female characters (the black woman captain was
>great, but the part a bit limited), and more exploration in new
>arenas--new races, new value systems, going ahead not back!

   This is the second or third article I've seen along these lines.
It's interesting that people are complaining about STIV just taking
us back to the old ST format (and thereby shutting off new
directions) when it was these new directions that so many people
disliked about STII and STIII!

   There must be a split somewhere between more conservative
"purist" trekkers and the more liberal "experimentalist" trekkers.
Personally, I'm sitting on the fence; I liked the new directions,
but I'm also ready for some of the old, familiar Trek we all know
and love.

   Remember that the old format doesn't necessarily mean no new
ideas, and certainly won't exclude new characters.  How about
Gillian?  She may figure prominently in upcoming movies.  And Saavik
certainly hasn't been written out yet (though I'd prefer to see
Kirstie Alley come back to the role).  The adventure is only
beginning...

   P.S. I noticed that you preferred STI to STIV, yet it
accomplished the same thing as the STII to IV trilogy-- brought back
the old crew, zapped new characters, etc.  What factors did you feel
made it better?  Not flaming, just interested in your feelings about
it.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 10:31 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Origin of "Saavik"

Obviously, Saavik is a Vulcan who's had a sex change operation.
Didn't you wonder why Kirk called her "Mister"?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 10:34 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Added material in Star Trek movies
Cc: David Platt <dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa>

I heard a report from Universe '87 that Gerrold admitted he had
suggested to the TNG producers that they shoot a few minutes extra
for the new episodes, edit them out for the tv showings, then back
in for videotape release, thereby enticing folks to buy the video
tapes.  Cruel, huh?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 87 11:27:53 cet
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Emotional response to Star Trek

Eleanor, I know what you are talking about.  I haven't leaned so
hard on ST in my own life in the way you describe, but I do draw
comfort from the idea that perhaps one day we'll stop being a planet
full of selfish brats and learn to get along.  (IDIC comes in here,
too...)

I also think that your post to the digest is a wonderful rebuttal to
what Kathy Godfrey said.  Despite ST's technical flaws, the VISION
of the future that it gives is one of the strongest reasons so many
of us love it so much.

George D. Madison

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 23:40:45 GMT
From: ix241@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ix241)
Subject: Re: Harmony Gold Tapes

According to David Gerrold, Star Trek: The New Generation had been
sold to 125 outlets as of Dec 1986.

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Feb 87 0852-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Feb 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Duane (4 msgs) & Farmer &
                         Harrison (5 msgs) & Kay &
                         O'Donnell (2 msgs) & 
                         Thieve's World (2 msgs) &
                         We Also Walk Dogs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 10:46:46 PST
From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Dave Platt)
To: heuring%uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: The next "Door" novel

Well, it was promised for "late 1985", but that date has long gone.

From what I've heard of Diane Duane, she has a lot of different
irons in the fire (no pun intended)... the Door series, the Wizard
stories, short stories, animation work (if she's still doing this),
etc. and so on.  I also have the impression that she really likes to
"do it right", and isn't willing to hack out a novel just to meet a
deadline.  This is just fine by me... "The Door into Fire" blew me
away when it came out back in '80 (I think it was?), and I found
"The Door into Shadow" well worth the many-year wait.  I don't mind
waiting for the next novel (and the final one also) if they are of
the same quality as the first two.

I'll be quite interested to see whose viewpoints the next novels are
told through.  I half-expect at least one to be told from Freelorn's
POV, and I'd enjoy at least a few chapters from Sunspark's.

If you know anybody who's a CompuServe subscriber, you could implore
them to sign on to the SF SIG and ask Duane when the next Door novel
is due... she's the moderator!  If you do this, and you find out,
please post or email the information... I'd really like to know!

Dave Platt
dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 14:33:55 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179@BROWNVM>
Subject: THE DOOR INTO SUNSET

I don't know the publication date, but it is written. There's a
really weird breakfast scene where they find out that Freelorn
shaved his moustache the night before and (if I remember the
dialogue):

Segnbora: Something's wrong.
Herewiss: Let me guess--he's pregnant.
Segnbora: No, I am...What?

I have a sneaking suspicion that it looks a lot better in the book.
It was described to me at a Con in November by DED herself.
(Actually, described to a room full of ppl, but that's beside the
point.) The book after this will be THE DOOR INTO STARLIGHT, but
that's all I know about it. I have a fairly extensive list of her
books and stories, if anyone wants me to post it.

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 01:56:51 GMT
From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph)
Subject: Re: When will Diane Duane finish?

heuring@CSRD.UIUC.EDU (Jerry Heuring) writes:
>Does anyone know when (if?) the next book in Diane Duane's "Door"
>series is going to be published?

Unfortunately, the publisher of that series, Bluejay Books, has gone
quietly out of business, their books have largely been picked up by
Tor and St. Martins.  Since the books are popular, the last two will
probably be published, but when is anyone's guess.

Randolph Fritz
sun!rfritz
rfritz!sun.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 87 21:40 EDT
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Re: Diane Duane

heuring@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>Does anyone know when (if?) the next book in Diane Duane's "Door"
>series is going to be published?  I've read the first two books and
>have been waiting for the next.

I heard about a year ago that she was on the verge of signing a
contract with Bluejay for the third book, but since Bluejay is now
messily deceased, the status of the contract (if ever signed) is
questionable.

All that becomes moot when one realizes that Diane is currently
story- editing a 65 episode syndicated cartoon series at the rate of
five episodes per week, two of which she writes herself. I
understand she also has a new Star Trek novel due soon. And, she is
doing scripts for other animated television shows as well.

One should also mentioned that she is recently engaged to be
married, and planning on moving to Ireland in the not-too-distant
future. So I have my doubts that we'll be seeing a new "Door" book
before 1989, if that soon.  (The third "Kit and Nita" book has been
turned in, however, and will probably be out in about a year.  The
first, "So You Want to Be a Wizard", is just out in paperback from
Dell Laurel Leaf (you may have to look for it in the Young Adult
section), and I highly recommend it.)

I'll see if I can find out more at Boskone.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@cs.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 87 23:59:17 PST
From: Bob Pratt <pratt@camelot.stanford.edu>
Subject: Kilgore Trout and 'Venus on ...'

Kilgore Trout was definitely Phillip Jose Farmer. I went to a speech
he gave today @ Stanford, and someone asked him the story behind the
Trout book. Here it is, as best as I can remember: He (Farmer) read
and liked Vonnegut's books, quite a few of which mention a
downtrodden sci-fi author named Kilgore Trout. He empathised with
Trout, and decided it would be fun to actually write one of the
Trout books that had been mentioned in passing by Vonnegut. So he
took the cover blurb that Vonnegut described and wrote a book, which
was published with the same back cover blurb. The photo used of the
author was Farmer with a sliced up white wig as a beard.  He
described the look as that of a terrified Christ. Anyway, it had
taken Farmer quite a while to persuade Vonnegut to go along with the
idea, and a problem arose after publication. Many people assumed
that Trout was Vonnegut, and sent him mail either praising or
damning the book. Since Vonnegut hadn't written it, he was annoyed
to get all that mail about it, so when Farmer asked for permission
to write another Kilgore Trout book that Vonnegut had described,
Vonnegut refused to let him. Farmer said that they feuded for a
while as a result of this, but they finally agreed not to say nasty
things about each other in public. Farmer also said that he thought
Vonnegut had cheated on that agreement.
   Anyway, there's what I hope is an accurate version of Farmer
describing how Venus on the Half Shell came to be written.  And if
you ever get a chance to have him tell the story in person, do so,
because he makes it extremely amusing.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 17:43:59 GMT
From: rtech!brent@rutgers.edu (Brent Williams)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

GEISJBJ%UREGINA1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU says:
>       I have a question.  Have there ever been any plans made to
> make a "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie.  Just recently, I found a book
> which contained a collection of three of James Bolivar DeGriz's
> best adventures,
>           The Stainless Steel Rat
>           The Revenge of the Stainless Steel Rat
>       and The Stainless Stell Rat Saves the World.

A couple answers:

1.) I recall an article in Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine a few
(<5) years ago interviewing Harry Harrison.  The question about
movie adaptations came up and basically the (he says, quoting from
memory) the deal is that Harrison felt that the people who produced
the movie _Soylent_Green_ from his story _Make_Room!_Make_Room!_
obtained the movie rights in a rather underhanded manner and in his
opinion sleazed the story, changing its focus beyond what he
intended.  As a result, he pretty much nixed the ideas of selling
movie rights to his other stuff.
   Should anyone dispute this interpretation of events, I'm sure the
article appeared in Asimov's within the last 5 years, because that's
the only SF magazine I have ever subscribed to or purchased.

2.) There was another short Stainless Steel Rat story published as
the basis for a board game.  Unfortunately, when I moved to
Berkeley, I lost the game, so I can't provide you any more
information on it.

Hope the foregoing has been of some help.

brent williams
Relational Technology, Inc.
1080 Marina Village Parkway
Alameda, CA   94501
{amdahl,sun,mtxinu,cpsc6a,hoptoad}!rtech!brent

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 21:59:32 GMT
From: osu-eddie!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Krieg)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

GEISJBJ%UREGINA1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:
>      I have a question.  Have there ever been any plans made to
>make a "Stainless Steel Rat" Movie.
>
>      Anybody out there know of any other Stainless Steel Rat
>stories that I haven't found yet?  If so, please advise me, so that
>I may make a point of searching for them.  Thank You.

I wish they would make a movie.

I believe there is also a book titled "The Stainless Steel Rat Wants
You" I Love the Rat books.

Chris Krieg

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 02:53:46 GMT
From: 6061204@PUCC.BITNET (Joseph Hong)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

   I can't imagine the spirit and fun of the stainless steel rat
being transferred to the movie screen. Look at what they did to
DUNE. It's rare for a faithful and well-done movie'tization to be
done on a book.

Joe Hong

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 14:50:13 GMT
From: houxa!acd@rutgers.edu (A.DURSTON)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

> 2.)   There was another short Stainless Steel Rat story published
>as the basis for a board game.  Unfortunately, when I moved to
>Berkeley, I lost the game, so I can't provide you any more
>information on it.

Before it became defunct and was sucked into the vortex that is TSR,
SPI produced a fantasy magazine called Ares much like Strategy &
Tactics. A bunch of articles, some fiction and a game. One issue had
a game called The Stainless Steel Rat [ I think, my copy is buried
in a box somewhere ] with accompanying short story.  The premise of
both is that a computer onboard a space station goes/or is
programmed to go 'berserk' and Slippery Jim has to shut it down. In
the story, he also finds out who 'fixed' the computer.

If I get a chance, I'll dig it up and describe it in more detail.

ACDurston
ihnp4!{houxa,hotld,hotlg}!acd

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 05:14:36 GMT
From: sdiris1!res@rutgers.edu (res)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

There is another Stainless Steel Rat Book...
"A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born" (or some words to that effect)

The story of Slippery Jim's youth, and how he became a Rat, and his
instructor in crime.

(Plus a serious dig at McDonalds... heh)

Skip

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 22:05:33 GMT
From: watdcsu!mschuck@rutgers.edu ( SD)
Subject: The Summer Tree

Has the book _The_Summer_Tree_ by Guy Gavriel Kay been heard of out
there?  It is a Tolkien-esque fantasy which (in my opinion anyway)
is one of the best fantasies ever written.

The book is volume 1 of a 3 volume set called The Fionavar Tapestry,
book 3 of which came out this month.  The only question I have is
whether anyone but me has heard of it?  It was on the required
reading for a course on Fantasy writing here at the University of
Waterloo but beyond here and Toronto it seems unknown. (Actually,
I'm sure that this is due largely to the fact that volume 1 was
published by McLelland and Stewart and they didn't know how to
market it since it wasn't Canadiana)

In any case, this set is excellent and I highly recommend it to
anyone.

Mary Margaret Schuck
...!utai!watmath!watdcsu!mschuck

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 18:31:14 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran

>I haven't read yet. However a friend said that McGil changed a
>little too much for her taste in the third. One of these days I'll
>just have to read it and find out for myself. Hope that helps!

I recently had an opportunity to talk at length with Kevin O'Donnell
and he said that McGill is intended to change. O'Donnell has a
definite end for the series (there will be 8 books in the series if
I remember correctly) and McGill will change from a teenager into a
mature man by the end.

Danny Low
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 05:33:59 GMT
From: hoptoad!farren@rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: F.B. Retzglaran

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>I recently had an opportunity to talk at length with Kevin
>O'Donnell and he said that McGill is intended to change. O'Donnell
>has a definite end for the series (there will be 8 books in the
>series if I remember correctly) and McGill will change from a
>teenager into a mature man by the end.

This rather directly contradicts what Kevin said at a recent meeting
of The Elves, Gnomes and Little Men's Science Fiction Chowder and
Marching Society (whew!) - I paraphrase (but closely) - "I'd be
happy to write 10 or 12 more of them if they'll pay me for 'em!".

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 19:57:47 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Long series -- Thieve's World

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>Urg. Yes, Teckla is considerably different in tone from the first
>two, and there is considerable (too much?) character development.
>But, then, that was true about the 3rd Thieve's World book, the
>4th+ Foundation book, [...] A common characteristic of all these is
>that at or about the 5th book, no matter how much I liked the
>series, the game got tiring.

A comment for those of you who may have given up somewhere between
the 3rd and 6th Thieve's World books (I certainly considered doing
so): the series bottomed out at about book 5 or 6, and has since
been getting better.  In my opinion, the last couple of books are as
good as the first one, if not better.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 00:46:22 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Long series -- Thieve's World

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>A comment for those of you who may have given up somewhere between
>the 3rd and 6th Thieve's World books (I certainly considered doing
>so): the series bottomed out at about book 5 or 6, and has since
>been getting better.  In my opinion, the last couple of books are
>as good as the first one, if not better.

It seems to me that along about book 6 or 7, the stories got much
darker, pessimistic, negative.  By the time I reached book 8, it
seemed almost overwhelmingly so (I'll make a point of relaunching
myself into 8 and read 9 soon to check out your statement <above>
for myself).

An interesting sidelight to my impression is that this is when the
women became, by and large, the only authors contributing to the
series.  Anyone else notice this?  Anybody agree with my sense of
darkness about the series and have a theory about whether it relates
to women writing it?  Are these modern women of Fantasy stretching
out into psychological areas most of the male writers are ignoring?
What do female readers think about these questions of mine?  (I'm
male, by the way.)

Kris Stephens
408-746-6047
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 01:18:35 GMT
From: mwilson@crash.CTS.COM (Marc Wilson)
Subject: Re: "We Also Walk Dogs"

WCCS.E-SIMON@KLA.WESLYN writes:
>During the recent responses to the 'bad businessman' question, two
>people (so far) have mentioned a story called "We Also Walk Dogs."
>
>I remember a story (author unknown) in which a company which will
>do anything for you (such as walk your dog, throw a party, or I
>think arrange for you to be in two places at the same time) is
>contracted by the government to arrange a meeting of various alien
>races.  They solve the problem with some sort of gravity-simulator.

     This is a short story written by Robert Heinlein.  You can find
a copy of it in "The Green Hills of Earth," which I think is the
collection you are referring to.

Marc Wilson
ARPA: ...!crash!mwilson@nosc
      ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mwilson@nosc
UUCP: [ akgua | hp-sdd!hplabs | sdcsvax | nosc ]!crash!mwilson
      mwilson@crash.CTS.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Feb 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Feb 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Teleportation (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 02:24:36 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

In NECROMANCER by Gordon R. Dickson, members of the Chantry Guild
use ``no-time'', which is based on exactly determining the velocity
of the person or object to be teleported, which (by the Heisenberg
Uncertainty Principle) then makes that person/object's position
indeterminate, and thereby allows any destination to be chosen.
(This went on to become the ``phase-shift'' drive used in the
chronologically later stories of the Childe Cycle.)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 16:33:29 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy prob's

cdaf@iuvax.UUCP (Charles Daffinger) writes:
>From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>>One of the things that disturbs me about all the talk that has
>>gone on about teleport/transfer booths is the blithe way people
>>have been talking about throwing away energy.  The First (and
>>only) Commandment of the Universe is Thou Shalt Not Waste!!
>
>This leads me to a question of energy and time travel.  Pardon my
>naivete, but if you are traveling from one time to another, are you
>not decreasing the energy and/or mass of the system you left
>(defining the system as the universe at a given point in time) and
>increasing that of the system you are entering?
>
>It seems to me to be a violation of the law of conservation of
>energy.

Well, this has nothing to do with the original post, but the popular
answer is, No.  Say you exit at time T and appear at time T'.  The
universe at T *will* have more energy/mass than that at time
T+(delta T), but these are considered two different universes.

Oh, yeah.  Another thing:

I wuz thinking about Niven's transporter.  Nowhere in any of the
books do I remember him saying that the transporter took any energy
to run!  I assume it does, but on the other hand, it doesn't change
the amount of energy inherent in the object teleported (just changes
it).  Assuming its cost is low, how about this for a (relatively)
perpetual machine:

Go out in a hot climate, set up a dam.  Put a transmitter at the
base, a receiver at the top.  The falling water runs a turbine,
falls into the transmitter, goes to the top (much colder), and goes
'round again.  You can skip off the ice cubes, and use them for
cooling.  Well, I've just invalidated Niven's pop phrase 'heat-death
of the universe.'

How about it?

nike!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 15:36:10 PST (Monday)
Subject: Re: Teleportation
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>

I just read Roger Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness." One
character in the story, the Prince Who Was A Thousand, has a unique
ability to teleport. He just thinks of a place and *zap* he's there.
What makes his talent so useful, though, is that since the universe
is infinite, he can go to any place he can IMAGINE. Zelazny gets
typically philosophical over whether the Prince is creating or
discovering these new worlds, much like the arguments the Amberites
used in discussing shadow worlds, but at any rate, this is a
terrifyingly powerful ability.

Josh

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 19:31:06 GMT
From: bellcore!purtill@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
> As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
> methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
> the moment are:
>  1.Transfer-of-information
>  2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>  3.Transport through hyperspace
>  4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>    "Null-A" series.  Any others?

Maybe this is the same as #4, but in "The Lion Game" by James
Schmitz, they have "portals" which are basically (paraphrased)
"squeezing two distant points of space into one."  (i.e., a space
warp.)  I'm sure I've seen this sort of idea elsewhere as well.

mark purtill
435 south st
morristown nj 07960
Arpa: purtill@bellcore.com
Uucp: {allegra | ihnp4}!bellcore!purtill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 87 16:32:00 EST
From: Ron_Frederick%itsmts@CSV.RPI.EDU
Subject: "Jaunting"

Speaking of "jaunting", I seem to remember a show which aired on
Nickelodeon a few years ago which involved teleportation through
hyperspace, and I think that it used the term "jaunting." I believe
the title was "The Tomorrow People."

From what I remember of it, some of the characters were the next
stage in the evolution of human beings, and they possessed various
psionic abilities. One of these involved the ability to travel short
distances in hyperspace. They could not actually travel very far,
and they had to know where they were going. They got around this
however by using a "biological computer", which they could
communicate with telepathically, and "jaunting belts" which allowed
the computer to set the coordinates for them for longer jumps.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 15:02:13-EST
From: eric(wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet)
Subject: Teleportation  Schemes

Not mentioned yet is the scheme used by F. Pohl in "Black Star
Rising" (a book which I quickly bought at PhilCon so that he might
sign it).  It involves transporting whole ships (and crews) between
universes using some sort of transporter ship.  (details escape me).

The transporter ship had to have been placed at its location by
manual travel.  (no ship = no travel).

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 19:48:05 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
>the moment are:
>   1.Transfer-of-information
>   2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>   3.Transport through hyperspace
>   4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>"Null-A" series.  Any others?

Well, there are various stories where teleportation via unexplained
mental powers happens.  How about "The Stars My Destination" by
Alfred Bester.

Then there are all the ones with mechanical teleporation where no
explanation is proveded.  A favorite from my childhood is "The
Forgotton Door".

What technology did R.A.H. use in his juvenile SF?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 18:00:53 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: transportation

twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
> I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have
> certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for
> thought.  Teleportation involves recording the position of every
> atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this
> info to the destination where the receiver gloms together assorted
> atoms according to the re- cording.

It certainly is food for thought.  Has it occured to anyone that
anybody who steps into one of those things will be instantly
disintegrated? Now, the person who steps out at the other end will
have all the personality of the original, all the memories, all the
thoughts, feelings and opinions of the original, but the actual
person who stepped in would be absolutely and completely DEAD!  The
replica of the original, the person who steps out of the transporter
at the destination, will only live for as long as he can stay out of
a transporter.

Before you all tell me anyway, I'd better add that I am perfectly
aware that this question has been raised before.  In fact, the idea
was used to provide the entire plot for James Blish's excellent Star
Trek novel "Spock Must Die!"  (the first ST novel ever, folks!)  The
story begins with McCoy complaining about this very point.  He
worries that he has no way of knowing whether "The Real McCoy" :-)
died when he first walked into a transporter beam, and what has
happened to his immortal soul.  Scotty is worried by this argument
so he goes away and invents a whole new system of transportation
technology to solve it.  Instead of destroying the original being,
why not create a replica of him in tachyons, send *this* off (at
considerably FTL speeds) to wherever it has to go, and report back
with whatever information they require to solve the problem that has
arisen.  The duplicate is then destroyed when the field is switched
off.

The new transporter system is a vast improvement on the current
system, as it operates over light years instead of just 16,000
miles, and takes the replica to wherever far faster than the
Enterprise can manage.  The only disadvantage is that the original
doesn't actually go anywhere.  When Scotty reports this invention to
Kirk, he is very impressed, but suggests to Scotty that he not
mention it to McCoy, as *he* would probably ask him whether the
replica had an immortal soul!

Comments, please.

Derrick
ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 17:33:00 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Jaunting.

   The method of transportation used by the Tomorrow People (British
SF tv-series mentioned during last year's SF on TV debate) was
referred to as "Jaunting".  I cannot remember how the process was
initiated, but I remember the transportation effect was a
transparent giant hand would wrap itself around the transported
person, who would then vanish.  Does anyone else have any further
details?  I do not remember the "Jaunting" being mentioned in the
discussion at all.

Derrick
ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 02:42:26 GMT
From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Teleportation and energy probs

kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman):
> how about this for a (relatively) perpetual machine: Go out in a
> hot climate, set up a dam.  Put a transmitter at the base, a
> receiver at the top.  The falling water runs a turbine, falls into
> the transmitter, goes to the top (much colder), and goes 'round
> again.  You can skip off the ice cubes, and use them for cooling.
> Well, I've just invalidated Niven's pop phrase 'heat-death of the
> universe.'

Niven proposed this in All The Myriad Ways: The Theory and Practice
of Teleportation.  Part V.  You're dropping a ton of iron filings
through open teleport booths.  System is enclosed in a vacuum.  The
stuff doesn't freeze, and after nineteen minutes of operation you
have a black stream at near absolute zero moving at seven miles per
second.  You could do this forever.  You have to put it at one of
the Poles to avoid the stream bending away from the transmitter door
as the Earth turns.  (BOOM!)  In a month you have double the mass.
In two, quadruple.  If you run the system long enough, the filings
weigh like a star.  Nasty, eh?  (What happens when the filings mass
so much they don't fall, but the Earth falls towards them?  When
they stop falling, won't they revert to their original mass or
something?  I don't know, I haven't taken Physics yet...)

Carl Greenberg
{qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 15:47:46 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Teleportation and energy probs

carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes:
>Niven proposed this in All The Myriad Ways: The Theory and Practice
>of Teleportation.  Part V.  You're dropping a ton of iron filings
>through open teleport booths.  System is enclosed in a vacuum.  The
>stuff doesn't freeze, and after nineteen minutes of operation you
>have a black stream at near absolute zero moving at seven miles per
>second.  You could do this forever.  You have to put it at one of
>the Poles to avoid the stream bending away from the transmitter
>door as the Earth turns.  (BOOM!)  In a month you have double the
>mass.  In two, quadruple.  If you run the system long enough, the
>filings weigh like a star.  Nasty, eh?  (What happens when the
>filings mass so much they don't fall, but the Earth falls towards
>them?  When they stop falling, won't they revert to their original
>mass or something?  I don't know, I haven't taken Physics yet...)

Well, I *have* taken physics, but we skipped over 'teleportation'.
;-) What'll happen is one of the following:

   1) The filings freeze so much that it cools the air in the tube
      to the freezing point; filings stop; end of story.
      What?  The tube is *evacuated*?  Oh.  Well,
   2) The filing wheigh so much (e.g., has such a high gravity) that
      the tube collapses; end of story.
And, no, the filings won't revert to normal mass: they may not be
moving in *some* frame of reference, but they are in *ours* (or, we
are in its-- whichever).  It *does*, after all, keep its velocity.
Oh, and the Earth won't last long enough for us to worry about it,
anyway.

OK, I admit it: I read the essay, as well as one of his stories (?
title?)  where the use a teleporter to get water to the Sahara, and
kinda swiped But, it can work, right?  I mean, the water's getting
frozen so fast, it never reaches relativistic speeds.  (BTW, I said
'relatively perpetual', not *'relativistically'* !  ;-)

lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 08:14:05 GMT
From: victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: "Jaunting"

From: Ron_Frederick%itsmts@CSV.RPI.EDU
>Speaking of "jaunting", I seem to remember a show which aired on
>Nickelodeon a few years ago which involved teleportation through
>hyperspace, and I think that it used the term "jaunting." I believe
>the title was "The Tomorrow People."
>
>From what I remember of it, some of the characters were the next
>stage in the evolution of human beings, and they possessed various
>psionic abilities. One of these involved the ability to travel
>short distances in hyperspace. They could not actually travel very
>far, and they had to know where they were going. They got around
>this however by using a "biological computer", which they could
>communicate with telepathically, and "jaunting belts" which allowed
>the computer to set the coordinates for them for longer jumps.

Yes, what you say is correct.  The first episodes covered the people
discovering their powers and then discovering that they were part of
a galactic federation.  This federation (Would you "Blake's 7" people
please calm down!) provided the organic computer (which changed from
season to season) to extend their jaunting distances to intersteller
distances.

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd,akgua,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!victoro
crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 22:48:56 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

Someone wanted to know what technology RAH used in his juvenile SF
for teleportation.

The only juvenile I can think of where he used teleportation is
_Tunnel in the Sky_.  This appears to be a dirigible space
warp--warp technicians have to compensate for planetary motion and
rotation speeds (and presumably potential energy changes).  Takes
lots of energy (I think he was using thorium??  It's been a long
time).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Feb 87 0914-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Feb 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:

             Television - Japanese Animation (6 msgs) &
                          Blake's 7 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 87 05:29 EST
From: Jay Hindle  <desslok%bklyn.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Robotech and Stuff...

Hi there!

 With all this interest going around for Robotech, has anyone ever
seen the original Japanese shows? (Macross, Southern Cross,
Mospedea) I myself have only seen a couple of episodes of Macross,
But one I did see was 'First Contact', which also happens to be
Minmay's (yes, this is how the Japanese spelled her name, pretty
western eh?) Singing debut. Now I know many of you Robotech fans are
getting sick right now, but in the Original, she was an EXCELLENT
singer. In fact, I've got Macross the Movie (Japanese Movie
adaptation of the series with a few weird twists) and her songs in
there are so good I've taped them onto cassettes and listen to them
on my walkman!

 Getting off of Minmay's singing, for all you Japanimation fans in
the New York City area, on March 20-22, LUNACON '87 will be going on
at the Westchester Marriot Hotel, in Tarrytown New York. Since
LUNACON '83 They have had a Star Blazers Video Room, where they show
3 days worth of Japanimation usually in Japanese with translation on
the spot, or subtitles, or the occasional english.

Jay Hindle

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 04:50:51 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech

>      It would be interesting to find out what the original 3
> stories were about.  It has been hinted that Protoculture was
> something other than an energy source prior to Macek.  In the
> Robotech version, Protoculture is a sort of panacea.  It is an
> energy source for all Robotech Master and Zentraedi spaceships and
> vehicles, it helps in the cloning process and likely helps in
> growing food.

In the original story line (and the Macross Movie in particular),
Protoculture was the original culture of the Zentraedi and was much
more human-like than their adopted culture.  For instance, men and
women were together, love was an accepted part of life, etc.

That's all.  It certainly wasn't a FUEL!

In Mospaeda, there was a super fuel called "HBT".  *This* was the
fuel they were running out of in the original.  (Have you Robotech
fans ever wondered why nobody ever runs out of "Protoculture" in the
Rick Hunter (Macross) episodes, but *everybody* seems to be running
out of it in the Mospoeda section of the show? Now you know! There
were never any fuel worries in Macross, but there were alot of fuel
shortages in Mospaeda. Remember, these are UNRELATED shows).

Also, I mentioned a Macek plot change that someone wanted me to
clear up.  There was an alien who fell in love with a human.  I
can't remember his Robotech name.  He ended up causing an alien ship
to crash (after jettisoning his human girlfriend) and nobly gave up
his life to save the earth (there was alot of classic Japanese drama
here with the conflicting loyalties theme) from an alien invasion.
After the ship crashes, there are alot of flowers that go floating
away from the crash.  This was dramatic and effective in the
original...but in Robotech, Macek has the voiceover come in with,
"But his sacrifice was in vain because he only managed to spread the
protoculture spores all over the surface of the planet." (I
paraphrased) Thus attracting the Invid (or whoever) to Earth in
greater numbers since they could detect "Protoculture" over
inter-stellar distances.  Yuck.

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 13:45:38 PST (Wednesday)
From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Japanese and other Animation on Video

On this list, I have constantly seen discussions on Japanese
Animation and how wonderful it is.  Well if you are interested, I
picked up an eight page newsletter called:

Animation News, "All the news that's fit to animate"
Volume 1, Issue 1
P.O. Box 25547
LA, Ca 90025

And in it they have a large section on animation titles on Video
that you can purchase from:

Expanded Entertainment
P.O. Box 25547
LA, Ca 90025

They list 'Warriors of the Wind', 95 minutes, 1985.  They will be
delivered UPS.  I don't know if this film is easily attainable or
not, or at a better price, I just thought some of you may be
interested.

Said of the original Japanese version of the movie, "If you only
watch one animation movie, this should be the one.  It is a
breathtakingly beautiful masterwork created by a genius working at
the peak of his powers.  Aided by an exceptional soundtrack,
Miyazaki Hayao has produced what is undoubtedly one of the greatest
animated films of all time. Don't miss it!

I don't know if this is true or not, I've never seen the film.

The newsletter did have some interesting articles.  I picked this up
for free at a local filmhouse that shows artsy films, (The New
Varsity in Palo Alto for local folks!).  There is no price, free or
otherwise, listed on the paper.  Gee, I hope it was free, I wondered
why the girl at the candy counter was running after me screaming
obscenities.  I just thought it was my new haircut!?!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 13:18 EDT
From: DANDOM@UMass.BITNET
Subject: Bad translations...

Speaking of VERY bad translations of Japanese animation, I am
surprised that no one has yet mentioned the GRANDADDY of bad
translations: Captain Harlock/Queen of 1000 years.  Harmony Gold, in
their INFINITE wisdom decided to once again link two series
together, in an attempt to fill out the number of episodes.  Now
think about this.  The main reason for all of this
continuity-slashing is so that a series like Captain Harlock, which
had only 42(?) episodes could fulfill the standard requirement of 65
episodes for syndication. Forget aesthetics, or paying attention to
a creator's vision.  In the case of Harlock, well, the series as it
happens DOES connect to Queen of 1000 years.  It takes place 1000
years AFTER.  Leiji Matsumoto has a continuity among his creations
that doesn't always make sense, but is at least there.  There is a
theme running throughout his series' of corruption through
immortality.  That theme shows up acutely in the Galaxy Express
series (which Harmony Gold has an opion on..)

Oh, and if you're an Urusei Yatsura fan, guess what harmony Gold
ALSO has an option on?  Yup.  I have this vision that Lum's

Electrical powers will be explained as 'Protoculture Beams' or some
such nonsense.  I don't see the series as being viable for an
American Market, since a lot of episodes are rooted in the Japanese
Mythology traditions (I am told that fanged and tiger- striped
demons show up in tha mythology, anyone know about this?).

As someone mentioned, Warriors of the Wind had some problems, and if
they get their hands in Laputa, well...my biggest fear is that they
will get their mitts onto Lupin the Third: Cagliostro Castle which
is also a film by Shun Miyazaki, of Nausicaa/Laputa fame, and is
also my single favorite Anime film.

The BEST translation of a Japanese film I have seen was a
translation of the first Lupin III film, entitled Lupin III aka The
Mystery of Mamo.  One reason that this translation works so well, is
that it was done by a Japanese company for a hotel or airline (I
don't know the precise details).  The voices were splendid,
especially the one for Lupin himself, which was uncannily similar to
his Japanese counterpart.  Just as a final aside, I cannot recommend
the Lupin III series more highly for American audiences.  It is a
fast, hilarious, exciting and intriguing series of adventures.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 08:05:57 GMT
From: victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: Japanese and other Animation on Video

pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>Said of the original Japanese version of the movie, "If you only
>watch one animation movie, this should be the one.  It is a
>breathtakingly beautiful masterwork created by a genius working at
>the peak of his powers.  Aided by an exceptional soundtrack,
>Miyazaki Hayao has produced what is undoubtedly one of the greatest
>animated films of all time.

     I saw the film originally as Nassica at the local C/FO meeting
and had the great fortune of seeing/hearing it with a stereo system
and we were able to get a distribution amp and five headphones and
the front row listened in FULL stereo!  WOW!
     I then purchased the tape at my local B. Dalton store
(Warehouse also had it, but I get a discount at B. Dalton) because I
wanted a very good copy of the visulas and the soundtrack (maybe).
I wasn't displeased.  It wasn't the original, but it wasn't Battle
of the Planets either.

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 14:39:39 GMT
From: aplvax!mae@rutgers.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: Questions about Robotech

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>    It would be interesting to find out what the original 3 stories
> were about.  It has been hinted that Protoculture was something
> other than an energy source prior to Macek.  In the Robotech
> version, Protoculture is a sort of panacea.  It is an energy
> source for all Robotech Master and Zentraedi spaceships and
> vehicles, it helps in the cloning process and likely helps in
> growing food.

Macek invented Protoculture as an all purpose buzz-word/way to tie
the unrelated original stories together.  The word itself was used
once in one episode of Macross.  When the Zentraedi leader is
briefed on what has been learned of the Earth's society, he refers
to it as a proto-culture, as in the dictionary definition for the
prefix "proto": beginning or giving rise to.  Macek must have liked
the word (and not had access to a dictionary :-) ) so he made it
refer to a mysterious "something" that the humans had and everyone
else wanted.  In Robotech it is an energy source used in factories,
to power space ships and for cloning, but it also grows on farms and
can mutate into a flower - it doesn't make any sense because Macek
insisted on using the same word for something in each part of
Robotech.  So both starship engines and the Zentraedi cloning
chambers in Macross were renamed "Protoculture factories", the alien
flowers in Southern Cross become "Protoculture farms" and the fuel
canisters in Mospeada become "Protoculture cells".

>    Anyway, the SDF-1 was a lost spaceship which crashed on the
> Earth.  It's origins are also unclear.  On the one hand, it seems
> to be a Zentraedi ship, but the design is unlike any other
> Zentraedi ship.  In the Robotech world (as opposed to the Macross
> world) it might be that the SDF-1 was an old ship from the days
> when the Robotech Masters ruled the Zentraedi.

In the Macross word, the Zentraedi were at war with another race the
same size they were.  The SDF-1 was an enemy ship, it fires on the
Zentraedi because it has detected them as the enemy.

Mary Anne Espenshade
{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae
mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu
mae@aplvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 87 15:48:59 GMT
From: mhuxh!stu4@rutgers.edu (Stephen Westphal)
Subject: Blake's 7

This is my first posting to the net, I think it's really neat.

Some of the cable stations in my area have started showing Blake's 7
and I really like it. I was at a convention a couple of weeks ago
and picked up a really neat fanzine on the show- it had an interview
with Michael Keating, and pictures and artwork and songs and poems-
the next one is supposedly on Paul Darrow. It also had an episode
guide to the first season; the second season will be in the Paul
Darrow issue.  It's fine and all, but there was nothing else on the
show as far as books and stuff. Aren't there any books or other
stuff from the show available? There is for other shows like Doctor
Who; maybe I am not looking in the right place. Also, does any one
know of any Blake's 7 clubs. I'm looking for one in New Jersey, but
a large regional or national club would be better than nothing, I
guess.

Thank you,

Steven Westphal

P.S. If anyone else is interested in the fanzine I got, the address
is:

Freedom City Gazzette
10 Hall Ct.
Park Ridge, NJ 07656

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 87 12:47:55 GMT
From: utcsri!tom@rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven

I have seen here in Toronto, Canada, a mini Corgi toy of the
spaceship for Blake's 7.  It's about three or four inches long,
metalic blue with yellow plastic trim.  No where on the packaging is
Blake's 7 mentioned (it came on a blister pack card, but persumably
they only package it this way for export to countries where Blake's
7 is not being shown).  The only clue to its pedigree is that on the
card, partly obscured by the toy itself, are the words "Copyright
Terry Nation."  It must have been four years ago that I bought mine.
It was dirt cheap (around two bucks, I think), but, then, it is
quite small.

Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 19:48:32 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

stu4@mhuxh.UUCP (Stephen Westphal) writes:
> Aren't there any books or other stuff from the show available?
> There is for other shows like Doctor Who; maybe I am not looking
> in the right place. Also, does any one know of any Blake's 7
> clubs. I'm looking for one in New Jersey, but a large regional or
> national club would be better than nothing, I guess.

A source for books (including the B7 program guide) is
Bundles From Britain
Box 34112
Chicago, IL 60634

I've ordered from them without any problem.

The only B7 book they seem to have is "Afterlife", a post-Blake
novel that manages to be boring and stupid.  You can read better
stuff in the fanzines.  As a matter of fact, you can probably
*write* better stuff yourself! :-) There were originally three other
books published which were adaptations from the series (in the first
one Avon was described as an Albino!).  I got copies at some
SF/Media cons but I haven't seen them arond generally.  I don't know
of any B7 clubs that are active locally in NJ -- however, some of
the DW clubs are expanding to include B7 activity as well.  If
you're interested in the combined interest I can let you know who
they are.  It should be interesting to see how they succeed.  When
both shows were on the air in Britain there were some overlapping
fans, but there were also a lot of very vocal "my show alone!" on
either side.  I gather that the DW "only" folks were calling B7
depressing (among other things) and B7 "only" folks were saying that
DW was incredibly childish!  One thing -- when the BBC put the
finale to B7 it was getting higher ratings than DW has been for the
last two seasons (sigh).

Incidently, SCORPIO, the B7 convention will be running again in
Chicago this year -- the first weekend in August.  If anyone's
interest I can get info on it.  No matter *who* the guests are there
is some marvelous material in the dealer's room and the art show.

"Starlog" had an interview with Gareth Thomas in #114 (January),
Paul Darrow will be in #116 and plans are for Terry Nation (on the
continuation of the series regardless of what the BBC wants) in
#117, Michael Keating in #118 and Jacqueline Pearce in #119.  At the
rate they're going, maybe there will be a special B7 issue!

Jean Airey
US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Feb 87 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Feb 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - Businessmen in SF (3 msgs) &
                            Models & Award Winners (4 msgs) & 
                            Noreascon & Boskone Request & 
                            Polly Freas (3 msgs) &
                            Quote Source & Attitudes Concerning SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 87 20:17:06 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Re: Businessmen (growth)

randolph@sun.UUCP (Randolph) writes:
>SF stories generally celebrate the growing phases of business,
>rather than the mature phases. [...]
>
>Generally, I think, SF's picture of business focuses on young
>businesses.  The founder of a business empire can be heroic; the
>people who manage the economic empires the founders leave behind
>seldom are.  I can't think of any serious SF story that takes an
>investment manager as a hero, though I can recall a few satires.
>
>Businessmen I recall from mundane fiction generally fall into three
>categories: the small businessman (whose business isn't generally
>central to the story at hand), the investment manager (whose life
>is usually portrayed as sterile), and 19th century robber-baron
>capitalists (usually SOB's, sometimes held up as bad examples).

You might try James Clavell's "Noble House" as an example of a
positive (or at least not outright negative) portrayal of business
managers.  Also, Poul Anderson's Nickolas van Rijn although he is
more of a Robber Baron.  But it's a positive portrayal of a Robber
Baron.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 03:48:24 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Businessmen (growth)

randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph) writes:
>SF stories generally celebrate the growing phases of business,
>rather than the mature phases.  Heinlein's businessmen are usually
>founders: D.D. Harriman, Lazarus Long (who founded many of them)
>and the H-U-R-R-Y-U-P people (of "We Also Walk Dogs").  So are E.E.
>Smith's, Niven & Pournelle's, and David Palmer's.

E.E. Smith's books may celebrate business, but he made distinctions
based on the people running them as well.  Admittedly Dick Seaton's
(SKYLARK) business was shown in a good light... but let us not
forget DuQuesne (SKYLARK) also had a business, as did the later
Isaacson (LENSMAN), and neither was particularly a shining gem...
In each case the distinction rested on the person in charge: in
particular, his ways of doing things.

As far as Heinlein goes, he was in favor of the independent
business, and showed in a good light some larger businesses; but
remember the ``bad guys'' of LIFE-LINE and how *they* did
business...  Heinlein's distinction seemed to be more along the
lines of the self-centered vs. those who had some idea of
public-mindedness.  D. D. Harriman, cornered, pointed out that his
move to get to the Moon was not only for himself but also to avoid a
situation where the Moon became a military installation ready to
drop bombs on anyone on the Earth -- may I note that we're pretty
close to that situation right now; I wonder how (i.e. in what ways)
we would be worried about nuclear Armageddon if we had used the
Harriman method to get into space?  On the other hand, Bidwell
(LIFE-LINE) found the hiring of assasins an acceptable way to deal
with competition not opposable via the courts.

Between them, they seem to have captured a large part of reality, if
in an exaggerated manner (I hope!).  Or so it seems to me, from my
(admittedly) somewhat insulated position with respect to large
businesses, and my small but growing experience with the
garage-workshop (or should I say, bedroom- computer-lab) variety and
its corresponding biasing.  (Take that as a disclaimer if you
wish.)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 87 11:42:58 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Image of businessmen in SF

> From: bnl!stern       (Eric G. Stern)
> I don't know if these count as pro-business, but there were the
> Chap Fooey Rider short stories by some author whose name I never
> knew.

Forgot, maybe, but never knew? Did you read them someplace that
never mentioned the author's name?

Anyways, it was Hayford Peirce.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 23:44 ???
From: KGEISEL%CGIVC%cgi.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Thunderbirds Models

I am pretty sure Dinky Toys is ancient history.  They made such
things as the Thunderbirds toys and Star Trek ships (complete with
actual firing disks).  They also had a great fully functional Astin
Martin DB5 from Gold Finger.  (Yes, the ejection seat worked...)
Alas, those good die cast toys are no more.  We are stuck with
plastic Rambo guns and He-man slime pits...

In any case, Cosmic Connection has a limited supply remaining of
original Thunderbirds plastic models.  Yes, these are orignial
series, not 2086. They are not the usual unbelievable Japanese model
quality, but they are still better than most Revell etc.  There is a
very limited supply.  I have TB1 and TB4 (main rocket and sub) from
them.  The mole-digger was either completely gone or near so.  There
is one other vehicle, but I don't remember what it is!  If you want
any Thunderbirds, I advise getting them FAST.

Japanimation lovers take note!  Cosmic Connection is an excellent
source.  They a complete line of models from nearly every show I've
heard of, plus several BEAUTIFUL photo/art books.  (Yes, robotech
included.)

A note about Japanese models: If you are a builder, you'll love
them; if you want to be, it is easier to start on them; and if you
aren't, the box art is worth the price alone!

You can learn a lot about the multitude of shows available in Japan
just by looking through their nicely done catalog.  It has lots of
pictures and a plot summary behind each line of models.

Cosmic Connection
426 Moody Street
Waltham, MA 02154
Send $1 for catalog.

Kurt Geisel

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 87 00:01:42 GMT
From: mit-caf!jarvis@rutgers.edu (Jarvis Jacobs)
Subject: HUGO & NEBULA-winning novels?

Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W.
CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels?

Thank you

jarvis@caf.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 12:19:47 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Hugo winners information

jarvis@mit-caf.UUCP (Jarvis Jacobs) writes:
>Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W.
>CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels?

In addition to Chuq's reference to Nicholls, I'd suggest you look in
the Asimov-edited HUGO WINNERS series from Doubleday. The last time
I looked, this was up to 4 volumes containing all of the
less-than-novel-length winners and listing the novel winners;
there's enough material that a new volume now comes out every ~3
years, and it's the sort of book that I've noticed many libraries
getting (although it's usually circulating, where Nicholls is
probably on reserve in any mundane libraryu that has it).
   There is book of Nebula winners and runners-up published each
year; it's always titled NEBULA AWARD WINNERS <number> but is edited
by a different author each year.
   Some time ago, Howard DeVore published a listing of all winners
of the Hugo, Nebula, and International Fantasy (now defunct) Awards;
I remember seeing a late-70's or early-80's edition in the MITSFS
(where you might find Boyajian's sometime partner, Ken Johnson, to
tell you more than you ever wanted to know) but don't know whether
DeVore has done anything more recent.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 17:27:51 GMT
From: druhi!holder@rutgers.edu (HolderML)
Subject: Re: HUGO & NEBULA award winners

Some previous article mentioned Howard DeVore's list of HUGO and
NEBULA winners.  I dug up my old (1978) copy and here's the poop:

   A History of the Hugo, Nebula, and International Fantasy Awards
   by Donald Franson and Howard DeVore.
   Published by  Howard Devore,
                 4705 Weddel St.
                 Dearborn, Mich. 48125

Not only does it list the winners for all of the awards, but it
lists the finalists and even most of the earlier ballots.  I assume
Franson and DeVore are still updating the list.  I saw several other
editions, but I haven't seen any mention of any edition after around
1982.

Mike Holder
AT&T-IS Denver, CO
ihnp4!druhi!holder

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 16:12:50 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: HUGO & NEBULA-winning novels

> From: mit-caf!jarvis
> Where can I find a listing of all the HUGO, NEBULA, and/or JOHN W.
> CAMPBELL MEMORIAL award-winning novels?

Since you're located at M.I.T., I suggest that you visit the M.I.T
Science Fiction Society Library. They should have a copy of Howard
DeVore and Donald Franson's HISTORY OF THE HUGO, NEBULA, AND
INTERNATIONAL FANTASY AWARD, LISTING NOMINEES AND WINNERS (Misfit
Press). The only question will be how recent an edition MITSFS has.
Misfit Press updates it regularly, but I don't off-hand know if they
do so annually, biannually, or otherwise. The most recent edition I
have myself is about 7 years out of date.

To bring yourself up to date, you could also check out MITSFS' files
of LOCUS or SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE, which always report the list
of nominees when they are announced, as well as, of course, the
winners, after the awards are presented.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 12:42:14 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Noreascon via e-mail

From: Bob Pratt <pratt@camelot.stanford.edu>
>I know it isn't 'til 1989, but I was wondering if [Noreascon] had
>an e-mail address. OK, pretty random question, but their mailing
>address is at MIT, and MIT does have a few computers.

The MIT address is a convenience; we had a PO box in Boston until it
was decided that the hassle of getting to it was worse than the
apparent anomaly of "Boston in 1980" (\sic/---it goes back to our
previous bid) having a non-Boston address. (There's nobody left on
the committee who still works at MIT, though many of us came from
there and some of us still work in the neighborhood.)

A great many of the committee are on the net one way or another; I
know I'm not the only committee member reading SFL although none of
the others participates regularly any more. The committee itself
does not have an e-mail address---yet.  We're looking at setting up
a committee-business bboard on the machine we bought for
registration, and if that happens we're likely to make the machine
accessible to the outside world in some fashion (if only to allow
committee to dial in and read mail from offsite). Vague noises have
been made about getting a Compuserve ]mailbox[ but so far nothing
seems likely to come of it. IF we do get a public mailbox the word
will be spread as widely as possible.

Chip Hitchcock
ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM
uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh

PS: It really is spelled Noreascon, not NorEasCon---but the PO seems
able to get mail to us either way....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 14:15:17 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179@BROWNVM>
Subject: Boskone

How about some general Boskone information, please?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 20:48:32 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Polly Freas

I was just informed that Polly Freas died of a re-occurance of her
cancer.  I don't have any other details than this, but it means that
we've lost another of the people who helped make SF what it is
today.

When I find out information about services and cards I'll let you
know.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 22:57:36 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Polly Freas information

Here is the latest on Polly Freas, courtesy of Laura LeHew at Plus5.

Due to the overwhelming hospital costs, etc. a fund has been set up to
help Kelly.  Contributions should be sent to:

   Butch Allen
   c/o HAROSFA
   P. O. Box 9434
   Hampton, VA 2367

The funeral was/is January 28, and there will be a memorial service
on the 29th.

If you want to send cards to Kelly, I'd suggest sending them in care
of Donning/Starblaze.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 05:33:45 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Polly Freas

Contributions toward Freas' rather staggering medical bills can be
made through

   HaRoSFA
   PO Box 9434
   Hampton, VA 23670

There will also be benefit auctions at Capricon in Chicago and at
Boskone.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 06:30:48 GMT
From: uhccux!todd@rutgers.edu (The Perplexed Wiz)
Subject: source of Clarke quote???

I'm giving a lecture on technology in the professions in March and
the second sentence I plan to utter is Clarke's:

  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
   magic."

The problem is I haven't got the slightest idea where the original
quote came from.  I'd really appreciate it if someone in netland
would tell me where to find the original quote.

Thanks

P.S. let's not flood the net with answers.  I'll post the first
reply I get that I can verify....

Todd Ogasawara
U. of Hawaii Computing Center
UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd
ARPA: uhccux!todd@nosc.ARPA
INTERNET: todd@UHCC.HAWAII.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 17:29:51 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: attitudes concerning science fiction (was social issues)

This turned up recently in talk.politics.misc.  Does anyone in
sf-lovers care to comment on it?

booth@princeton.UUCP (Heather Booth) writes:
>... I also think it is encouraged by science fiction.  Science
>fiction has a lot of people narrowly averting disaster by being
>very clever.  It has the myth of science and technology saving the
>world which is just personal arrogance taken to an extreme.  This
>is exactly the national attitude of this country, a "we can do
>anything," attitude.  I'm sure I don't need to point out that we've
>failed at doing everything (like having technology *and* a clean
>environment, or securing world peace).  Most noticeably, science
>fiction has a lot of rebelling against old values.  It has lots of
>brave people doing what "couldn't be done" or what *shouldn't* be
>done.  This is a "we know better" attitude.  As a generation we
>have taken up this rebelliousness with a vengeance.  We have gotten
>rid of religion, traditional families (or perhaps even families at
>all, soon), life-long marriage, chastity before marriage, etc,
>without even looking to see if we weren't throwing away more than
>we were gaining.  Sometimes I am amazed at the lack of respect we
>show the past.  Not for a minute do most of us consider that there
>might be a *reason* for these illiberal things we've discarded.
>Are we the first people smart enough to doubt religion?  Are we the
>first *intelligent* generation in the history of man?  It seems
>unlikely.  ...

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Feb 87 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Feb 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:

                Books - Eddings & Farmer & Foster &
                        Kingsbury & Milan & Recommendations &
                        Upcoming Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 21:35:34 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: David Eddings and _The Malleorean_

>>I have nearly finished _The_Begariad_ series written by David
>>Eddings, and have not been able to find any other books written by
>>the author.  I did so enjoy the series that I want to read more!

>A friend who is on a number of review lists has just recieved
>advance uncorrected proofs for _Guardians of the West_, the first
>volume of _The Malleorean_, the new series from Eddings. It occurs
>after the _Belgariad_ I do not know when it is due out, but would
>guess around three months, maybe much less.

The Spring Announcements in Publisher's Weekly show it to be a Del
Rey hardback, and I believe it is in the May list, which means that
bookstores should see it in late April.  Paperback is at least a
year after that, for people who don't buy hardcovers.  This is, by
the way, the first in a five book series, so Eddings will be taking
us well into the 1990's before this is done.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 11:32:17 EST
From: Jeremy Bornstein
Subject: Life imitating art

Dan Tilque (dant@tekla.tek.com) writes that Vonnegut was "somewhat
annoyed" by Farmer's writing _Venus on the Half Shell_.  I remember
reading, in one of Farmer's introductions (to what book, I'm sorry
to say I can't remember), that he asked Vonnegut for permission to
write the book and Vonnegut agreed.  Perhaps Mr. Bibliography could
give us some hard facts?

Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 15:55:45 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Spellsinger [was re: writing for money's sake]

From:   mimsy!chris     (Chris Torek)
> (The worst thing about _Spellsinger_ was that it was clearly Part
> One of Two, except that Warner never mentioned that on the cover.
> On the other hand, they did have a box on the last page to warn of
> the sequel.)

SPELLSINGER and THE HOUR OF THE GATE were originally published in
hardcover by Phantasia Press as a single book entitled SPELLSINGER
AT THE GATE, so Warner Books *did* take a single long book and cut
it in two.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 00:31:04 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Moon Goddess

"The Moon Goddess and the Sun", by Donald Kingsbury is set in the
near future.  Despite the impression the title may give, it is
strongly reminiscent of Mitchner's "Space", expect that it is a
fictionalized account of the next phase of the space race instead of
the last one.

A major focus of the book is the doctrine of Mutually Assured
Destruction (MAD) (and, largely by implication, space-based defense
systems).  The author goes to considerable, and largely successful,
effort to analyze MAD and its alternatives without compromising his
storytelling.

Disappointingly, at the very last he changes the problem.  Rather
than produce (or even posit) a tentative solution to the problem of
coexisting -- and existing -- with today's Soviet Union, he retreats
to that tired old standby: we can simplify the problem by reforming
the Russians.

In fairness, this is not pulled out of the blue.  Much of the book,
in many ways its best part, is devoted (again, without compromising
his story) to an attempt to understand and explain how the Russians
got to be the way they are

In some ways, Kingsbury's predictions are grim indeed.  Imagine a
future in which it is necessary for some middle-aged man to explain,
in an aside, who Hari Seldon was.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 06:35:14 GMT
From: loral!ian@rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan)
Subject: Cybernetic Samurai by Victor Milan

                Cybernetic Samurai, by Victor Milan
                   Ace Science Fiction paper back
                    A book review by Ian Kaplan

     The human brain is the culmination of million of years of
evolution.  What if we could build a computer system and its
associated software so that it evolved, just as simple nervous
systems evolved into the human brain?  Where evolution took millions
of years, evolution inside of a computer might only take days.  In
Victor Milan's book Cybernetic Samurai, this is how Dr. Elizabeth
O'Neill creats the first artificially aware entity.  O'Neill names
this entity Tokugawa, after the shogun who unified Japan at the
beginning of the seventeenth century (1606) century.

     Tokugawa is brought into existence in a post world war III
world, where the major western powers have nuked each other into
decay.  Japan also suffered from the war and is now a nation where
powerful companies vie for control like the feudal lords in the
original Tokugawa's Japan.  Over all the companies, like a shogun
ruling over the daimyo, is MITI, the Japanese Ministry of
International Trade and Industry.

     The research undertaken by Dr. O'Neill that leads to the
creation of Tokugawa is sponsored by Yoshimitsu Akaji, the founder
of Yoshimitsu TeleCommunications or YTC.  Yoshimitsu is a maverick
Japanese businessman who built his company on "fifth generation"
computer systems.  Yoshimitsu sees the development of an artificial
entity as the edge he needs to survive against the hostile MITI,
which resents his maveric behavior.

     Self aware computers are not new in science fiction, but Milan
handles it unusually well.  He paints a vivid picture of a "cyber
punk" vision of feudal Japan.  While the book has flaws, Milan
seriously considers the implications of an artificial computer based
being and the ramifications of its powers (and absolute power in
general).  As to the the flaws in the book, they cannot be discused
without giving away too much of the plot, so you will have to read
the book and find them for yourself.

USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!loral!ian
ARPA:   sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 87 11:38:00 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA>
Subject: DUNE (story request)

>Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better
>than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it.  Michael Aden

    I also thoroughly enjoyed the first three books, Michael.

    At least, enough to buy the second three as they were released.
There was a **fantastic** story there.  There were, as written, some
of the best *parts* of a story I have ever seen (in the first
trilogy, I won't make this statement about the later novels).

    This, in my humble opinion (what do I know about writing,
anyway!?!), is one of the classic cases of where an author is so
impressed with success the decision is "more is better".  From there
the stories go downhill (repeating, this is my opinion not
necessarily shared by other readers).

    Now to your question: Different but one of those big novels that
I really liked, try The Mists of Avalon.  The Chronicles of Amber,
but don't buy the Merlin stories until the third one comes out.  I
just finished the second and am (angrily) left in the middle of an
adventure waiting for the finish.  The Spellsinger stories.  The
Golden Torc series.  The Dragon books, except maybe the last two.
All of good ol' SKZB.

    Re-reading this list I suddenly realise my taste seems to have
changed.  For many years I've been a fan of "hard science" fiction
and these are all in "that other" category.  So, go to Foundation,
Ringworld (not necessarily all of them, someone else will no doubt
have suggestions about this), and others of the type I'll hereby dub
"semi-classics, at least".

    I recently finished Cherryh's "Kutath" series and loved it.  You
might have some trouble finding these since the paperbacks I found
were in a used book shop.  They may not remain in print.

    I like SF/Fantasy/Spec-Fi.  I read a lot of them, like some love
some and dislike some, but seldom start a book that I don't finish.
So maybe I'm a special case and am completely out of the park with
this list.  You'll for sure be seeing lots of response on the DIGEST
for the next couple of weeks.  Good Luck.

Ron S.
rsingle@cct.bbn.com.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 23:07:24 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Books in your Future:  Publisher's Weekly Spring
Subject: Announcements

This is compiled lists from the 1/30/87 PW Spring Announcement
Issue.

This is a list of upcoming books from Publisher's Weekly.  Note that
schedules change, books disappear, and I've probably missed some
stuff.  If this list isn't good enough for you, subscribe to PW on
your own...  These lists are not complete, but just the line
highlights described and advertised in Publisher's Weekly.  Note
that if there are multiple authors, I've only mentioned the first in
an attempt to keep my fingers from falling off.

Hope you find this useful!

         Comic, Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Related books

                             Abbeville

Winsor McCay: His Life and Art by John Canemaker.  March

                                Ace

Beyond Wizardwall by Janet Morris.  May
Beyond the Veil by Janet Morris.  February
Caught in Crystal by Patricia C. Wrede. March
Count Zero by William R. Gibson.  April
In the Bone:  The Best SF of Gordon R. Dickson. March
Knight Life by Peter David.  April
Norby: Robot for Hire by Janet and Isaac Asimov.  February
Storms of Victory:  Janissaries III by Jerry Pournelle.  May
The Artificial Kid by Bruce Sterling. May
The Damnation Game by Clive Barker. May
The Sun, The Moon, and the Stars by Steven Brust.  May
Way of the Pilgrim by Gordon R. Dickson.  May

                            Arbor House

Wyrms by Orson Scott Card.  July

                                Avon

Shadowfires by Leigh Nichols.  February.  Written by Dean R. Koontz
Unicorn & Dragon by Lynn Abbey.  February

                             Baen Books

Judgement Day by Pauline Glen Winslow.  June
Marooned in Realtime by Vernor Vinge.  June

                               Bantam

A Darkness at Sethanon by Raymond Feist.  February
Aegypt by John Crowley.  April
Chernobyl: A Novel by Frederik Pohl. August
Rumors of Spring by Richard Grant.  March
The Cleanup by John Skipp.  March
The Grey Horse by R. A. MacAvoy.  May
The Heart of the Comet by Gregory Benford.  March
Unto the Beast by Richard Monaco.  April

                              Berkley

Dome by Michael Reaves.  February
Drowntide by Sydney J. Van Scyoc.  May
Helliconia Winter by Brian Aldiss.  April
The Green Pearl by Jack Vance.  March
Thieves of Light by Michael Hudson.  April

                               Bridge

Voyage of Vengeance by L. Ron Hubbard. March.  Mission Earth #7

                         Contemporary Books

Isaac Asimov Presents Agents of Byzantium
        by Harry Turtledove. April
Isaac Asimov Presents The Man Who Pulled Down the Sky
        by John Barnes. April
Isaac Asimov Presents Through Darkest America
        by Neal Barrett

                                DAW

Arrows of the Queen by Mercedes Lackey. March
Festival Moon: Merovingen Nights #1 by C.J. Cherryh.
        April.  First volume in a new shared world anthology.
In Conquest Born by C. S. Friedman. May
Night's Sorceries by Tanith Lee.  April
The Other Side of the Mirror by Marion Zimmer Bradley.  February
Vagabonds of Gor by John Norman.  March
Vamps by Martin H. Greenburg.  March

                              Del Rey

An Emperor for the Legion by Harry Turtledove.  May
Battle Cry: Robotech #2 by Jack McKinney. March
Battlehymn: Robotech #4 by Jack McKinney. March
Force of Arms: Robotech #5 by Jack McKinney. May
Genesis: Robotech #1 by Jack McKinney. March
Guardians of the West by David Eddings. April
Homecoming: Robotech #3 by Jack McKinney. March
Magic Kingdom for sale: Sold! by Terry Brooks.  April
Nerilka's Story: A Pern Adventure by Anne McCaffrey.  Feburary
Pirates of the Thunder by Jack Chalker.  March
Still River by Hal Clement.  June
The Annals of the Heechee by Frederik Pohl.  March
The Smoke Ring by Larry Niven. May
The Songs of Distant Earth by A. C. Clarke.  May
With a Single Spell by Lawrence Watt-Evans.  March

                             Doubleday

Daughter of the Empire by Raymond Feist.  June
Last Fall by Bruce Stolbov. May
Star Griffin by Michael Kurland.  March
To Make Death Love us by Sovereign Falconer. July
Universe 17 by Terry Carr. June
Whispers IV by Stuart David Schiff. July

                          Faber and Faber

Shelter by Marty Asher. May [ed. comment:  good,
        strange book. Very much like good Vonnegut]

                           Facts on File

The Encyclopedia of Superheroes by Jeff Rovin. April

                     Harcourt Brace Jovanovich

Fiasco by Stanislaw Lem. May
Present Conserns by C. S. Lewis.  March
Solaris by Stanislaw Lem.  May

House of Collectibles

The Official Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide, 17th edition
        by Robert Overstreet.  May

                            Pocket Books

Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise by Shane Johnson, May

                           Poseidon Press

In the Flesh by Clive Barker.  February

                                Putnam

Dayworld Rebel by Philip Jose Farmer.  June
Out of Phaze: Book Four of Apprentice Adept by Piers Anthony. June
The Ascension Factor by Frank Herbert. August
The Damnation Game by Clive Barker.  May
To Sail Beyond the Sunset by Robert A. Heinlein. July
Watchers by Dean R. Koontz.  February

                            St. Martin's

The Space Merchants by Frederik Pohl.  March

                             Starblaze

A Distant Soil -- Immigrant Song by Collen Doran.
Aria -- The Knights of Aquarius by M. Weyland.
Buck godot -- Zap gun for Hire by Phil Foglio.
Duncan & Mallory -- The Bar None Ranch by Robert Asprin.
Fortune's Friends: Lucky Lacey by Kay Reynolds.
Mage -- The Hero discovered by Matt Wagner.  March
Myth-Nomers and Im-Pervections by Robert Asprin.
Robotech Art #2 by Kay Reynolds.
Thieves' World Graphic #5 by Rovert Asprin.
Thordal -- The Archers by Jean Van Hamme.

                                Tor

Bard by Morgan Llewelyn.  March
Flight in Yiktor by Andre Norton.  April
God Game by Andrew Greeley. May
Nightfall by John Farris. April
Noonday by Robert Perrin.  April
Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card.
        February. [will probably win 1986 Hugo and Nebula]
Sword at Sunset by Linda Crocker.  March
The Labrynth of Dreams by Jack L. Chalker.  March
Time out of Mind by Jorn R. Maxim. February
Shade of the Tree by Piers Anthony.  May

                               Walker

How to Enjoy Writing: A book of Aid and Comfort by Janet
        and Isaac Asimov. April

                               Warner

Dawn by Octavia Butler.  May

                              Workman

Barlowe's Guide to Extraterresterials by Wayned Douglas.  May

                       Writer's Digest Books

How to Write Tales of Horror, Fantasy and Science
        Fiction by J. N.  williamson.  March

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Feb 87 0826-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Feb 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:

          Books - Curran & Herbert (2 msgs) & McCaffrey &
                  Niven & Sagan (2 msgs) & Tubb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 87 10:39:54 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <control@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Book: IN ADVANCE OF THE LANDING

I thought this book, which I just got from the St. Louis Public
Library, might be of interest to both the SF-L and SPACE readership.

IN ADVANCE OF THE LANDING: Folk Concepts of Outer Space, by Douglas
Curran (Abbeville Press, New York, 1985, ISBN 0-89659-523-4,
paperback, large format [9" X 10"])

This is a pictorial and verbal look through the UFOlogists,
saucerians, New Age and suchlike underground of North America. It
includes a large number of interesting pictures of architectural
spacecraft (houses and stores built to resemble flying saucers,
rocket ships mounted on gas stations, etc.) and some interviews with
and descriptions of people who claim to have been contacted by,
travelled with, or be psychically attuned with aliens from outer
space. My personal favorite is John Shepherd of Bellaire, Mich., who
has turned his grandparents' small cottage into a lab filled with
racks of electronic equipment designed to detect and contact UFOs:
"Grandpa Lamb used to grumble at the growing incursion of
paraphernalia into the living room. Eventually, he and Mrs. Lamb
were left with only a small settee scrunched into a corner between
whole walls taken up with John's consoles and oscilloscopes. Grandpa
Lamb died two years ago. Now John and his grandmother make a good
team. Together they built an addition on the house to allow space
for John's burgeoning equipment and put a rocking chair in the
living room for Mrs. Lamb."  There's a nice picture of John amongst
his gear; now THAT's my idea of high-class interior decoration! :-)

Anyway, if you've ever wondered about the people who build flying
saucers in their basements under the direction of mysterious voices,
or those who claim to be the reincarnation of galactic emperors from
the Orion Nebula, or who just think it is a neat thing to have a
forty-foot sheet-metal rocket as a front-lawn decoration, this is a
good introduction to the field. Did you know, for example, that the
official community Bicentennial project of Lake City, Pennsylvania,
was to build a UFO Landing Port, equipped with radio homing beacons
and a fibreglass decoy saucer? Or that St. Paul, Alberta, built the
world's first UFO landing pad, the territory underneath it being
declared to be "international" and open to all visitors "from Earth
or otherwise"?

Regards,
Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 21:26:21 GMT
From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #20

I rather enjoyed reading DUNE.  I found it a good combination of
adventure, politics, and other cultures.  The movie, on the other
hand, left MUCH to be desired.  Although the first half of the movie
followed the book "rather" well (the changes made were sometimes
drastic, but understandable), as soon as Paul goes into the desert,
it's as if the screenwriters chucked the book in the trash.  When it
rained in the end, I almost cried.

As for the sequels to DUNE, I've never read them.  I heard that they
were never up to the original.

Chris Russell
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 20:28:13 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>     So far I have received many many suggestions about SF books.
>Almost all of them suggested Dune.  I got into Dune last year, and
>to my disappointment, it is let's say, very discersive(sp?)  I
>think I agree with one of my friends who said that Herbert
>definitely read a lots of books, but Dune was like a literary
>critique written by a second year college student.  The student did
>not really understand what the work is all about, but he/she went
>to library and dug out all the essays about the work, and lumped
>all the ideas together with some transitional phrases.
>Unfortunetely, I found it to be true.  More- over, I think the
>reason why they cannot make a movie out of it is because there are
>too many things being discussed in the book but none in depth.

I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula pick
ever, even worse than Neuromancer.  Herbert, as always, served a
cold dish with characters as flat as halibuts, their heads removed,
arranged in a peculiarly shallow and static fashion.  The ideas
involved are familiar: nomadic lifetsyles, corrupt merchant princes,
alien life forms, scientific meditators who compute or stop their
metabolism at will.  None was ever particularly inspiring by itself,
and nothing redeems them from the usual melange in this book.

>     Many of you asked me what I mean by big stories.  I think this
>is hard for me to define precisely.  I can only give some examples:
>Ren. with Rama.  The Gods themselves.  2001.  For all the SF I have
>read, I like Ren. with Rama the best.  That is the best example of
>what I mean by big story.  It is also a real scientific story.  It
>does not assume any fancy wiggits whose working mechnism cannot be
>understood(Well, except the gravity drive but that wiggit is not
>really essential to the big space ship).  The story gives the
>reader some real impression of how big the universe is.  I mean
>that we all know that the universe is BIG, XXX light years this way
>and that way, but it is just numbers.  When I think about the
>universe it is always no bigger than my brain.  But this story
>really gives the reader some glimpse of the vastness of the
>universe, and our position in it.

This one of the few redeeming features to appear in some of Jack
Chalker, at least in his best work, the Well World stories.  These
are highly entertaining by virtue of Chalker's not-yet-dry
imagination and as a result of the scale of the conceptions, the
feeling of putting the cosmos in reach.  You might want to try
"Midnight at the Well of Souls" and read the rest if you like it.

>    Many of you had suggested Heinlein's work.  As some of you have
>suggested I have just finished reading The Puppet Master.  I don't
>think it is well written.  It is of typical 50's cold war
>mentality.  I have not read any critics about that book, but I do
>have an impression that this is basically a communism VS.
>capitalism story.  The slugs refered to themselves as "people" and
>the guys, and girls fighting the slugs keep saying "free man".
>Well, has anyone read any critique about this book yet?  I may be
>reading more into the story than there really is.  I basically
>think this is a not so good version of SF 1984.
>                                          eugene

You are clearly a demon.  Congratulations.  Most SF readers take
years to get to that stage.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 06:41:31 GMT
From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #20

Michael_R._Aden.RDES@Xerox.COM writes:
> In that vein, I'm curious as to your views on the quality of other
> more developed series of books ( examples which spring to mind are
> the Dune books, Asimov's Foundation stuff, and Tolkein, to name a
> few).
>
> Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better
> than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it.

The first book of that series, *DUNE*, has no equal in my library.
The whole series however, never quite lived up to the first book.

One series of books that I also liked a lot (although a little
lighter than the series' you mentioned) are the Dragonriders of Pern
books by Anne McCaffrey. There are eight books in the group, six of
which have characters in common. All, however relate to the same
"time line", that is they share a common view of the history of the
planet Pern.

The basic plot of the series is that the planet Pern (which has lost
touch with Earth) breeds a native life form resembling dragons to
help fight against spores from a neighboring planet. The planet gets
close enough every two hundred years for the spores to bridge the
gap between the two planets.

The people who can ride and control the "dragons" (yes, they do
breath fire) are required to have a high telepathic/empathic
ability, because that's how they communicate with the dragons. This
setup leads to a feudal society, where the dragonriders are the
"knights of old", and are supported by the remainder of the
population.

If the above sounds hokey, it's my fault. It's like trying to
explain the FOUNDATION stories in two paragraphs. At any rate, the
series was very enjoyable, from first to last book. A nice touch
about the series is the fact that two of the (first six) books are
told from the dragonriders' point of view while another three are
from the harpers' (minstrels) point of view. The sixth book combines
the previous characters, but is primarily from the landowners'
viewpoint.

The books in the series are:

Dragonflight            Dragonsong
Dragonquest             Dragonsinger
                        Dragondrummer
        The White Dragon

Plus Pern "historical" books
Moreta's Ride
Nekrila's Story

Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va.
seismo!rlgvax!jesse

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 05:04:01 GMT
From: cooper!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Lent )
Subject: Stepping disks [RINGWORLD ENGINEERS *SPOILER*]

Here's a thought about "Ringworld Engineers" and its depressing
ending:

Couldn't Louis Wu have used any remaining stepping disks to move
some significant portion of the population out of the 5% sector to
be blasted by the induced solar flare?

I know there are quite a few practical aspects to be dealt with:

   1. How to get the stepping disks to population centers?
      (The Hindmost's ship?)
   2. How to persuade the population to jump onto the stepping disk?
      (The "God Gambit" and representative leaders from each species)
      (Roaches go in but the don't come out?)
   3. How far can you move in a single stepping disk hop and still
      have the inlet and outlet stepping disks provide repeatedly
      surviable hops?  (Seems like it should be a reasonable
      distance, but from the middle of the affected 5% section might
      be too far.)
   4. Do we have the old "Marching Chinese Problem" but multiplied by
      a few powers?
   5. Who decides whom to take?

And some other thoughts:

What is the capacity of a stepping disk? Could you hover a lander
over one, land with just one strut on the disk and *poof* be inside
a lander over the outlet disk?

How do you feed a mob like this at the other end?
("Okay, everybody bring your own lunch!")

It seems that Teela should have seen this possibility, but then
again maybe the math doesn't work out well. But it does seem if they
had months to work with they could move quite a few people.

I guess if Moses had stepping disks, leaving might have been a wee
bit easier :-)

Enjoy,

Chris Lent
ihnp4!philabs!phri!cooper!chris
(203) 452-1522

------------------------------

Date: Mon 2 Feb 87 11:20:44-PST
From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: RE: Contact

Pi changing value?  Pi being modulated?!?  Very silly, I agree, HAD
SAGAN CLAIMED ANY SUCH THING.  But he didn't.  It's quite clear that
what is going on with the "messages" in the transendental numbers is
this: the creator of the universe (God, if you like) was capable of
creating the universe such that transendentals had particular
values.  Particular CONSTANT values.  And that the creator chose
those values so that, when the expansions under various bases were
examined, patterns emerged.  THESE are the "messages."  There is no
hint of real-time communication in this.  So all the flamage about
the value of pi changing is completely off-base.

In fact, most of the scathing criticism of this book I have seen has
been equally off-base, by people who apparently skimmed through it
looking for excuses to hate it.  I have been astounded at the
reactions I have seen to this book by sf readers generally.  It
seems as if everyone has some axe to grind against Carl Sagan and
they are taking it out on his book, regardless of its true merit.
My advice to those who have been put off from reading the book by
all this: READ THIS BOOK.  It is a damn fine book, the best book I
read last year, and just about the only SF book I have ever read
with a believable female character (stress on all three; others have
been unbelievable, men in drag, or one-dimensional non-characters).
(And the excellent characterization is far from its only merit.)

READ IT READ IT READ IT.  Four stars, definitely.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 06:42:29 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Contact

From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>
>  In fact, most of the scathing criticism of this book I have seen
>  has been equally off-base, by people who apparently skimmed
>  through it looking for excuses to hate it.  I have been astounded
>  at the reactions I have seen to this book by sf readers
>  generally.  It seems as if everyone has some axe to grind against
>  Carl Sagan and they are taking it out on his book, regardless of
>  its true merit.

I haven't read Contact, but I felt that both "The Dragons of Eden"
and "Broca's Brain" were fine books, less chatty and egotistical,
and more informative and readable, than, say, Asimov's
popularizations.  I've always felt that most of the opposition to
Sagan was from people who had just watched Cosmos and been turned
off by his screen personality.  Within SF fandom, of course, there
is a gut reaction against anyone who writes a science fiction novel
but causes it to be marketed in the general fiction section of the
bookstore rather than the SF shelves.  Contact was not marketed as
category SF, and generated opposition within fandom by the simple
act of so doing.  It also gained millions of readers and made many
people aware of the possibility for worthwhile literary achievments
within futuristic and space settings, just as Vonnegut has done.

>  My advice to those who have been put off from reading the book by
>  all this: READ THIS BOOK.  It is a damn fine book, the best book
>  I read last year, and just about the only SF book I have ever
>  read with a believable female character (stress on all three;
>  others have been unbelievable, men in drag, or one-dimensional
>  non-characters).  (And the excellent characterization is far from
>  its only merit.)
>
>    READ IT READ IT READ IT.  Four stars, definitely.

Thanks for the advice.  It is difficult to tell whether one would
like a book or not, given only out-of-context technical arguments
spawned by the super-science hugger mugger in the situation.  Yours
are the only literary comments I've seen on the book, and from the
other Sagan I've read they seem plausible, since he is a very
humanistic writer.

(As for the technical argument, can we all just agree that he should
have used the gravitational constant or Planck's constant instead of
a purely mathematical number for a marginal increase in
plausibility, and then drop this subject?)

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 17:20:31 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Dumerest

Normally I don't like long series books, all of which are basically
the same, but for some reason I have bought and read all 31 of E. C.
Tubb's Dumerest books.  For a long time they came out 2 a year, but
none has appeared for about 2 years now.  I haven't read anything in
Locus or elsewhere about Tubb dying or giving up the series.  Does
anybody know anything about why there are no new Dumerest books?

John Oswalt
..!amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Feb 87 0843-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Feb 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous - 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI' (8 msgs) &
                          Writing for Money's Sake (2 msgs) &
                          Social Attitudes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 18:53:46 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a deragatory
>>manner
>  Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is
>true? I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way
>(for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with
>influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows.

In my experience, use of "sci fi" does correlate highly with
feelings that the genre is trash. If this has been true for a long
time, as I believe it has, then it is reasonable to believe that
people wanted to get away from a term with such negative
connotations.

I cannot support the phrase "as I believe it has", above, other than
to say that it has been my experience in the eight years or so that
I've been involved to some extent in sf-dom, and that I have
gathered that it was the case before then from reading the words of
people older than I. Ask someone in First Fandom for a more
definitive answer.

(Another reason for wanting a different term is that it makes people
think about what it is they're talking about. One excellent reason
for "sf" is that it may stand for "science fiction" or "speculative
fiction", and asking people who casually dismiss the genre with "oh,
that sci fi stuff" to use another term *and* *explaining* *why* may
make them take another look at it before dismissing it.)

About "some pinheads with influence": it's perfectly legitimate to
want to get away from the use of a word with powerful negative
connotations. For a clear example, consider "nigger", which is
really just a contraction of "Negro". If you don't mind the term
"sci fi", fine; but recognize that some people have good reasons to
dislike its use.

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 22:23:16 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene W. Smith) writes:
>  Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is
>true? I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way
>(for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with
>influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows.

   Exactly.  That's how language changes.  A similar example is the
word "hacker."  Regardless of what Marilyn Dee thinks, the word is
in regular usage now with a different connotation than it perhaps
originally had.  All it takes is enough influential pinheads (as you
put it) to use the word in a negative context, and all the
compunerds in the world can't change it.

Joel
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 12:40:22 EST
From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "Sci-Fi"

gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>Historically, the term "sci-fi" has been used in a derogatory
>>manner by people who do not believe that sf/science
>>fiction/speculative fiction/whatever this stuff is is a valid form
>>of literature.
>  Can you give any evidence that this "historical" footnote is
>true?  I have been assuming that "sci fi" became a no-no in the way
>(for instance) "Frisco" for San Francisco did: some pinheads with
>influence just decreed this as Truth. The rest follows.

I \really/ don't want to get into the issue of whether, e.g., Harlan
Ellison (who is one of the ones known to have inflamed this
argument) is a Pinhead with Influence (both sides of that slam being
debatable); however, it is a matter of record that the term has been
used by people with \no/ knowledge of the field, possibly as an
attempt to show that they're hip. E.g., CBS executive to Gene
Roddenberry when he was pitching STAR TREK: "We don't need another
sci-fi show; we've got LOST IN SPACE." (Yes, I know ST wasn't the
greatest thing in the universe, but it was long way beyond LASSIE IN
SPACE.)

It's also worth noting that Ackermann, who coined the term
(allegedly analogous to "hi-fi") is noted for lack of any
discrimination whatsoever; his last major influence on the field was
the US translation/publication of the German pulp series PERRY
RHODAN.

I tend to use SF partly because it begs the question; I really don't
care if the store mixes "science fiction" and "fantasy", if only
because it means the people looking for popular (mostly fantasy)
series are at least exposed to the rest of SF (whatever such
exposure is worth).

Chip Hitchcock
ARPA: CJH@CCA.CCA.COM
uu: ...!{decvax!linus, seismo!harvard, cbosgd, caip!think}!cca!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 01:54:24 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>In my experience, use of "sci fi" does correlate highly with
>feelings that the genre is trash. If this has been true for a long
>time, as I believe it has, then it is reasonable to believe that
>people wanted to get away from a term with such negative
>connotations.

  I've been reading "this stuff" (whatever you want to call it) for
over thirty years. I seem to recall a time when one could say "sci
fi" with impunity. And I like the sound of it--it has a nice ring.
And supposedly the world's fanniest fan invented it, for Ghod's
sake. So why all of a sudden is it a no no?  Why do people insist
(to my mind foolishly and obnoxiously) that using it is proof you
are not a True Fan, and claim "sf" (stupid word) is better?  The
whole thing is annoying. In fact (speaking for my segment of Random
Fandom) it is symptomatic of a lot of what is annoying about the
fannish subculture.  Here we have a bunch of people who pride
themselves on Independent Thought, but insist on everyone acting
like lobotomized zombies--it is Decreed, so Mote it Be. Bleeh.

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 87 08:36 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

I've always found the terms a useful way of telling neos from more
experienced fans.  Same with the terms "Trekker" and "Trekkie" in
Star Trek fandom.

About, oh, 5 years ago, there was quite a controversy over the
terms, with some fans going to cons wearing buttons proclaiming
"Fight Fannish Elitism -- call it Sci Fi." and the great thrill of
practical jokers was to use the terms "Sci Fi" or "Skiffy" in a con
suite a Worldcon, and hear the room go silent.

It all seemed quite silly to me.  But then, as Arthur Hlavaty coined
the phrase, SF fans are hyperlexic -- they put a lot of emphasis on
words.

Speaking of words, anyone know who coined the phrase "mundane" for
non-SF fans?  I've long thought that any group expecting much
cohesiveness not only needs to have a word describing their group,
but also a pejorative describing their group which they can protest
against, and a pejorative describing folks outside the group.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 17:56:45 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
> Why do people insist (to my mind foolishly and obnoxiously) that
>using it is proof you are not a True Fan, and claim "sf" (stupid
>word) is better?
>  Here we have a bunch of people who pride themselves on
>Independent Thought...

They're acting like people!  They're creating a shibboleth.

They're turning a difference of speech habits (in this case, way too
small to call it a dialect) into a password.  The function of this
is to define an in-group (us who are *serious* about science
fiction) and defend it against those who (presumably) look down on
science fiction by whatever name.

The word "shibboleth" comes from an anecdote in the Bible (Book of
Judges, perhaps) where two tribes were having a war.  Then and
there, your life could depend on not saying "sibboleth".  The
practice of creating shibboleths has clearly been around for a
while, and probably will be around for a little while longer.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:  ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
         106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone: (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 01:17:26 GMT
From: ihlpa!smann@rutgers.edu (Mann)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>In my experience, use of "sci fi" does correlate highly with
>>feelings that the genre is trash.
>   I've been reading "this stuff" (whatever you want to call it)
> for over thirty years.  Why do people insist...that using it is
> proof you are not a True Fan?  The whole thing is annoying.  In
> fact (speaking for my segment of Random Fandom) it is symptomatic
> of a lot of what is annoying about the fannish subculture.

I too have been reading science fiction for over 30 years.  To read
in this forum that real lovers (or fans) of science fiction do not
call it sci fi hit my funny bone and made me wonder what gave that
person the right to speak for me that way.  Those who make claims
for whole groups of people should be a bit more careful of whom they
include in those groups.  Please consider me a fan and lover of
science fiction, of sf, and/or of sci fi, but please don't include
me in as part of the "fannish subculture."

Just somebody who likes science fiction no matter what it's called.

Sherry Mann
ihnp4!ihlpa!smann

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 00:14:35 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

So why not cll it fantasy and be done with it?

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 07:00:52 GMT
From: msudoc!krj@rutgers.edu (Ken Josenhans {msucl Systems})
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

jao@valid.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes
>I can think of two reasons.  The first is that it is easier to
>write a sequel than it is to think up new characters and universes.
>This is the author's fault.  The second, and more important, is the
>readers' fault: publishers have discovered that it is easer to
>market a sequel than a new story, because readers are more likely
>to buy something they feel familiar with than to try something new.

On the second point, let me garble a story William Gibson told on a
panel at Norwescon in 1982 or 1983: Gibson was riding the bus one
day and saw a young man reading an issue of Omni which had a Gibson
story in it.  Without identifying himself, Gibson tried to draw the
young man into a discussion to find out if he'd liked the story.
Eventually, Gibson asked, "So, what kind of science fiction do you
like?"

The young man answered, "Trilogies."

Ken Josenhans
P.O. Box 6610
East Lansing, MI 48823
UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj
BITNET:  13020KRJ@MSU

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 00:30:50 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Writing for money's sake

I don't know about this ``writing for money's sake'' stuff, folks.
You can make a phenomenal amount of money writing computer manuals.
It is writing, and you don't have to worry about the plot much.  I
think this ``I do hackwork for the $$'' stuff, in this day and age,
is largely just an excuse.  You can write manuals, documentation,
marketting blurbs, and all sorts of stuff.  And, if you can really
write well, and are willing to freelance -- which is, after all,
what authors are supposed to be doing -- you can make more than
$100/hr for technical writing.

Then, I don't know, but I suspect that the first draft of the latest
Xanth novel didn't take more than a month or two to write, if that.
I guess he is making a lot more money than the $100/hr if I read the
sales figures correctly.  But then, how much money does one need
before one can sit down and write good fiction?

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 01:39:56 GMT
From: harlie!carl@rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: attitudes concerning science fiction (was social issues)

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee):
>booth@princeton.UUCP (Heather Booth) writes:
>>... I also think it is encouraged by science fiction.  Science
>>fiction has a lot of people narrowly averting disaster by being
>>very clever.  It has the myth of science and technology saving the
>>world which is just personal arrogance taken to an extreme.  This
>>is exactly the

What was that date, August something 1945?  World War averted by new
miracle weapon?  Not that it's come to a happy ending with current
stockpiling of these threats.

>>national attitude of this country, a "we can do anything,"
>>attitude.  I'm sure I don't need to point out that we've failed at
>>doing everything (like having technology *and* a clean
>>environment, or securing world

Notice the number of people being uncooperative about securing world
peace, and ask a longtime resident of Los Angeles how much cleaner
the sky has gotten there.  (I will admit that capitalism encourages
a Bad Attitude in some corporations that feel free to pollute.)

>>peace).  Most noticeably, science fiction has a lot of rebelling
>>against old values.  It has lots of brave people doing what
>>"couldn't be done" or what *shouldn't* be done.  This is a "we
>>know better" attitude.

A lot of things supposedly can't be done.  Someone probably said you
couldn't squeeze the equivalent of several thousand vacuum tubes
onto a little piece of semiconductor.  People used to think the
notion of putting a man on the Moon was fallacy.

>>As a generation we have taken up this rebelliousness with a
>>vengeance.

Could someone tell me the birthdate range of the generation being
referred to?  I'm unashamed to admit that I turned 16 yesterday, and
count myself in the below:

>>We have gotten rid of religion, traditional families (or perhaps
>>even families at all, soon), life-long marriage, chastity before
>>marriage, etc, without even looking to see if we weren't throwing
>>away more than we were gaining.  Sometimes I am amazed at the lack
>>of respect we show the past.  Not for a minute do most of us
>>consider that there might be a *reason* for these illiberal things
>>we've discarded.  Are we the first

Someone show that one to a grammar professor.  Perhaps the *reasons*
for some of these "illiberal" things have gone away?  Like needing
psychological crutches (hey, don't knock 'em, religion helps some
people, just not me), not needing to intermarry to settle feuds, and
therefore no need for intact merchandise, etc.?

>>people smart enough to doubt religion?  Are we the first
>>*intelligent* generation in the history of man?  It seems
>>unlikely.

Are we the first people to doubt religion and survive?  Are we the
first intelligent generation to have the opportunities we do today?
Are we the first people to realise that tradition can stagnate?  (My
father is an an Episcopal priest and IRS tax auditor and an expert
at making people miserable.  I'd be a REAL mess if I'd had to grow
up around him.  I've learned to question the notions of religion,
traditional families, lifelong marriage, and been ADVISED not to
marry without finding out what the supposed consort is like in bed.
After all, it only takes one example to disprove a theory.  Perhaps
we've just been HOUSECLEANING?)

P.S.  I'll admit it, I *am* addicted to science fiction and fantasy.
But at least I can tell the difference between those and reality...
and see how little there is sometimes.  :-)

Carl Greenberg
{qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Feb 87 0859-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Feb 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Brust (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 18:45:25 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Teckla

trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes:
> Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody
> things?  Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT,
> but even a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself,
> would get tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books. (I just hope
> you don't get carried away by the commercial thought that us
> stalwart fans would probably still buy all 17 unless they got
> unbearable)

   I, for one, do not share this viewpoint.  As long as Mr. Brust
can manage to keep the books from turning into just hack adventure
(a la Doc Savage) I will happily buy as many of them as he cares to
write.  I don't think this will be a problem as long as Vlad's
character grows and develops as the books progress, which almost has
to happen.  After all, at the rate he manages to get into things
over his head, he can't stay running a small territory forever.
He's either going to get into bigger and better things, or six feet
under.

   On the other hand, there are a lot of things refered to in
Jhereg, etc.  that I would love to see explained, like just exactly
what happened at Deathgate Falls, etc. (hint, hint).

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...decvax!ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-7210

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 13:26:02 est
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #36

trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes:
>Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody things?
>Sure, you may be one of the best storytellers since JRRT, but even
>a most stalwart fan of the Vlad series, such as myself, would get
>tired of the game after about 7 or 8 books.

Some time (1-2 years) ago, when skzb was a SF-LOVERS regular,
someone asked him this.  His reply was on the order of "If I keep
having things to say, maybe I will.  Otherwise, I won't.  I want to
write other things too."

Well, there are more things to describe, if not necessarily things
to say.  The future, for example: the revolution is still around.
If he wants to write more adventure stories, he can always dig into
Vlad's sordid past and explain some of the cryptic references he's
given.

I have the impression, though, that skzb (since _To Reign in Hell_
anyways) prefers to have some message, some conflict of philosophies
as well as characters.  This shouldn't be a problem with the
revolution stories, although that may tend to force him to use the
same congeries of opposing philosophies.  I hope he won't try to
write Vlad's early history in his current style; it would confuse
the character of the world more than it already is.

(For that matter, I wish that skzb had written _Teckla_ in another
setting.  Watching the central character change is no bad thing; but
I think Vlad and Cawti changed much too fast, in their time and in
ours.)

Bard Bloom

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 21:17:32 GMT
From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: Teckla

Ok I wasn't going to join this discussion (Ha! how many times have
you heard that line...:-) But I have been hearing comments of the
form the "Vlad series" this and the "Vlad series" that. I quibble
with the use of "series" here. It is true that we've seen 3 stories
that centre around the same character in the same world and so
forth. But they have all been told in such a way that they can all
be taken as independent stories - with very little reference to the
others (but that's another story...:-). This is clear by the fact
that they weren't even published in chronological order or was it
that I didn't read them in chronological order...  Anyway, this
business about having a *real* ending to the series becomes a
somewhat moot point. I do realize we have yet to learn some things
(like who *ie* Devera) which suggests such a "real" ending might
suggest but...what the hell - if he still produces good stuff I'll
read it no matter who's telling the story.  end of ramble

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 23:18:23 GMT
From: uw-june!ewan@rutgers.edu (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: Teckla

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
> 'acceptable' motives for murder. It was killing without
> compunction for personal gain (perhaps not gold coins, but
> certainly coin of another sort! Acceptance, her husband's
> continued survival, greed for the 65k in

Um...remember that there was an even chance that if Vlad hadn't
succeeded in his assasination the entire empire would have collapsed
in a major war. Although I guess staying alive is still personal
gain....

Also, remember that her effort took place several weeks (not days as
has been mentioned) earlier than Teckla and one could imagine her
struggling with her conscience afterward.

There was one point that I don't remember being made clear in
Teckla, namely how long had Catwi been in the revolution. There was
one comment that suggested it hadn't been long ("She will make a
good revolutionary" or some such). Maybe she was approached after
Jhereg?

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 03:35:56 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla

This posting is further commentary on the posting by ``Scott'' which
attempts to tear TECKLA apart.  I'm trying to clarify Chuq's
points...

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>The problem with Teckla is that despite all the action in the
>>book, nothing much happens.
>
>Uh, Vlad gets in trouble, gets in more trouble, runs around with an
>assassin on his ass trying to find a solution, gets in even more
>trouble, finds a semi-solution, sort of.  All the while having a
>major marital problem.  Cawti moves out, there is a major uprising
>and near rebellion.
>
>Uh, what book were you reading? It wasn't Teckla...

And at the end of the book, they are back together, the rebellion
has been sent back into its original status (i.e. fermenting, not
erupting), etc.  On the other hand, the same can be said of the
other two books: very little changes between the beginning and the
end.

In the ``physical'' environment of the story, that is.  In TECKLA,
we actually have *more* of a story; the other two talk about major
events in Vlad's life, but he doesn't change much.  In TECKLA, both
Vlad and Cawti mature.  We get to see the causes and watch the
events unfold that will shape Vlad and Cawti into more mature
people.  Most importantly, they both *learned* something.

Unfortunately, people who are looking for the same kind of story
that they read in JHEREG or TECKLA will get a nasty surprise; light
humor it isn't.  But as a result of TECKLA, Vlad is suddenly
three-dimensional, and MUCH more interesting.

>I hate to break this to people, but every time I've dealt with
>Steven, I've found him to be a mellow and down to earth person. His
>head is swelled a LOT less than all these wonderful people who get
>off by beating on people more successful than themselves.  There is
>an old Hungarian proverb: If you can't do something as good as
>someone else, belittle it. It won't be productive, but you'll feel
>better. (thank you, Mr. Bananacheck)

Any author who takes his works so un-seriously as to poke fun at
them in casual conversation (``Jar-head'', etc.) isn't likely to get
swell-head.

>>Finally, I also disliked Teckla because the ideologies Brust's
>>presents are not only embarrassingly simple-minded but frankly
>>quite boring as well.

Have you ever examined your neighbors' ideologies, Scott?

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 87 12:09:14 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Teckla

trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent) writes:
> Mr. Brust: do you really intend to write 17 of these bloody
> things?

The maximum is nineteen--one per House, a first one named EASTERNER
and a last one called something like, THE LAST CONTRACT.  I don't
know how many I'll actually write.  I hope I have the strength of
will to stop when I feel I've mined the territory to my own
satisfaction, or when I get bored with them.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 87 12:38:40 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Teckla

From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
>>I just gotta set one thing straight--at no time, in Jar-head, did
>>Cawti perform an assassination.  She helped Vlad, she made a
>>supposed offer to do an assassination, and like that.  But she
>>never performed an actual murder-for-pay.
> Arguing with the author about what he meant seems patently foolish
> on the face of it, but...
>
> She did perform a quick and efficient murder in Jhereg, though!
> (one of Mellar's guards, I believe...) She may have done this for
> the sake of her husband and perhaps for a little chance to
> practice the old trade, but without much moral reservation that I
> could see.

Arguing with a reader about what I meant seems just as absurd, but I
want to make a couple of points.  One--I have tried to make it clear
that among that group of people (the Jhereg) assassination has a
specific meaning--killing for money.  Two--More importantly, Cawti
acted to get Vlad out of a life-threatening situation, and she did
it with as much panache as she could muster.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 87 12:19:28 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Question for skzb

As a matter of fact, the animal of one of the Houses is somewhat
like a beaver.  Not that one, though.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 01:37:54 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>Also, remember that her effort took place several weeks (not days
>as has been mentioned) earlier than Teckla and one could imagine
>her struggling with her conscience afterward.

Apologies, people; I had gone leafing through my copy of TECKLA as I
wrote my article and thought I had found a reference to it happening
three days after the end of JHEREG.  On re-checking just now, I note
``a few weeks'' stated in the Prologue while Vlad is talking to
Banijok.  This does make a bit more sense; in three weeks I know *I*
can have a fundamental rearrangement of my basic beliefs.  (On the
other hand, I'm flexible.  :-)

>> 'acceptable' motives for murder. It was killing without
>> compunction for personal gain (perhaps not gold coins, but
>> certainly coin of another sort! Acceptance, her husband's
>> continued survival, greed for the 65k in
>Um...remember that there was an even chance that if Vlad hadn't
>succeeded in his assasination the entire empire would have
>collapsed in a major war. Although I guess staying alive is still
>personal gain....

As for my so-considered ``misuse'' of the term ``assassination'',
while it wasn't done directly for money, it in effect made Cawti an
accomplice in the assassination of Leareth (Mellar).

``Even chance''???  More like 100% than 50%, friend.  And
considering what happened the last time the Dragons and Jhereg had
it out with each other, this one would have been a doozy...!

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 23:53:10 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Teckla

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Apologies, people; I had gone leafing through my copy of TECKLA as
>I wrote my article and thought I had found a reference to it
>happening three days after the end of JHEREG.  On re-checking just
>now, I note ``a few weeks'' stated in the Prologue while Vlad is
>talking to Banijok.  This does make a bit more sense; in three
>weeks I know *I* can have a fundamental rearrange- ment of my basic
>beliefs.  (On the other hand, I'm flexible.  :-)

Good.  I won't have to bitch about the three weeks business.  I
often wonder if other people only read every other paragraph...
Listen up people, and listen up good.  I don't know of a single more
believable character in fiction than Cawti.  What Cawti did was so
incredibly believable that I can not understand how the rest of you
missed it.

Look at her.  She was a member of a competant assassination team.  I
don't know whether she did any assassinating herself, but she
accepted a contract on Vlad.  And then she fell in love with Vlad.
How's that for a reason to make you doubt that you are in the right
career.  And then Norathar, her friend, has no time for her because
Norathar is becoming a Dragon.  Then end of a partnership, indeed.
And Vlad is not much help to live with -- sure she loves him, but
every time she looks at him she sees that he is becoming the best
assassin in town -- and does she want to live with that?  He is a
better witch than she is, and his business is doing very, very well.
he has respect among the Jhereg.  What has Cawti got.  Loneliness.
Boredom.  Where is she supposed to go meet friends and figure out
what to do with her life?  The Dragaerans dispise the Jhereg -- so
it is off to find some Easterners and Teckla.  And what happens?
She ends up in the middle of a bloody revolution.

Does this strike you as unlikely?  Does the arguments used sound
sophmoric -- then I suspect that you have never lived or travelled
extensively in Central America.  Peasant revolts are always on the
verge of happening.  And they are not lead by the intelligensia from
U of Chicago either -- they are the same old platitudes said by
labourers and farmers...the revoluitonary group Cawti joined is like
hundreds of groups I have seen all over north and south america.

the question is -- why did Cawti join them?  It is a very good
question.  It is the same question you have when you wonder why your
manager sold out the whole group to higher management, and how come
your kids did something utterly unreasonable at school, and how come
your husband has suddenly withdrawn all his support for your carreer
when he used to be your only supporter.  Why do people do things
like that?  There are reasons for these things.  Strange reasons.

It is a strange world.  The limits to which people will go to feel
wanted, to feel that they belong, to feel loved really strain
credibility.  Life is like that.  Cawti got a lot of respect, and a
certain amount of admiration, and some heroes, and some people who
will give her ego strokes and hero worship, and a chance to matter
in the world.  Is it any wonder she jumped on it?  It didn't matter
what the slogans were -- she had a place where she belonged.

Vlad's ego was never so in need of strokes.  he has Loiosh, and he
never was in a partnership -- until he and Cawti moved in together.
And for the sake of that fragile partnership he goes on, day after
day, risking his life and all that he has worked for.  Amazing the
things that brave people will do for those they love.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Mar 87 1014-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:

                Administrivia - DON'T PANIC!!!!!!!!,
                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 86 09:32:43 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: DON'T PANIC!!!!!!!!

   This is a message to the uncountably large number of people who
sent mail asking why they haven't received a digest since the
beginning of February.  Those who didn't write may be wondring as
well.
   I guess Robert Burns put it best when he said (translated into
common English), "The best laid plans of mice and men, oft go
astray."  I had originally planned to put out a whole bunch of
digests timed to go out at regular intervals while I was at Boskone,
do a bunch more with timed releases when I returned and before I
left on a business trip to California, and then pick up again when I
returned today.  However, mail problems, workload, sickness and a
bunch of other reasons not only made it impossible to do as I
planned but also to make any arrangements whatsoever to have someone
else do the digest while I was gone.  So much for planning.
        Anyway, I am back now and I will be putting out digests with
a vengeance.  I will try and keep it down to about 3 per day but you
may see more as I try to get out all the queued messages (about 400)
and keep up with the new ones coming in.
        For those of you I saw at Boskone, it was fun!  If anyone is
going to Lunacon, look for me.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jan 87 14:53 EST
From: <DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek Movie Poll Results

Greetings and Salutations!

Here are the results and comments collected from the Star Trek Movie
Poll.  STII TWoK wins by a landslide.  There were six vote for STII
and only one for STIV.

While I'm not convinced that we don't have a "Dewey Wins", I'd make
one comment about the comparison between the two movies.
Personally, I think that there are three different (somewhat) types
of Star Trek stories...One where Kirk and company manage to outsmart
or bluff superior fire power bad guys (STII); one where we see
people living and having fun in a time and place where many of us
would like to be (STIV); and the love & romance stories (STIII sort
of but not really).

I'd say that what the people who like STII and not STIV missed was a
bad guy who has working against Kirk and crews' best laid plans
(like maybe a Klingon who figured out what was had happened and went
back to mess Kirk and co.  up).  It's like the difference between
playing chess against a computer or against someone who has been
giving your ego a hard time recently.

For STV?  I vote for a love story.  Something on the order of "City
on the Edge of Forever".

So here is what the "voters" had to say about the ST Movies.

From: weltyc%cieunix@CSV.RPI.EDU (Christopher A. Welty)
>     I liked STII the best.  I found it much more entertaining.  I
> don't view Star Trek as a comedy, although little humorous lines
> can add to a story.  STII had the most superior character
> development of any movie or any episode (even Amok Time and Naked
> Time), and it showed Kirk at his tactical best ("You are an
> EXCELLENT tactician, Captain" said Khan to Kirk in Space Seed).
> It blows the others away...

From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (David Platt)
> One vote for ST II "The Wrath of Khan".  Good villain with a known
> character and reasonable motives for holding a grudge; lots of
> tension, conflict, and "how will they get out of this one?";
> interesting advancement of Kirk's character into a
> formerly-untapped area (unknowing fatherhood); good use of special
> effects; and last but not least, the guts to kill off one of the
> series' major characters (albeit temporarily!) in a noble but not
> overly sentimental fashion.

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
> STII:The Wrath of Khan -- drama, villainy, feel of the old ST
> family back together again.  Even the bridge crew has lines!

From: Arthur L. Chin <@EDDIE.MIT.EDU:ARTHUR@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
> is ST II, due to the following reasons:
> 1) Best plot of the movies, and logical extension of Space Seed
> 2) Kirsten Alley lets Saavik have some savvy, unlike Robin Curtis
> 3) Spock dies
> 4) Best special effects
> 5) Best director
>
> There are many more, but I think this will suffice.

From:    JWHITE@MAINE (Jim White)
> My order of appreciation is ;
> ST II TWoK - Brings together Kirk and an historical ST figure. I
>              liked the battle, and strategy. The Balance of Terror
>              is my favorite episode, and TWoK was similar.
> ST IV TVH -  Is a close second. Great humor, good characterization,
>              and excellent entertainment. The plot is where it
>              fails.
> ST III TSfS - Good but not great.
> ST I TMP   -  Dullsville

From: CS.KATHY@R20.UTEXAS.EDU (Kathy Guajardo)
> Since you asked for our opinions here's mine.  I vote for STAR
> TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN.  It had everything, love, war, adventure,
> good special effects, great story and most importantly a danger to
> Kirk and the crew and why he was sentenced to harsh planet to live
> or die by his own hand.  It was great to see this story continued.
> It was also a movie and story that could stand on its own merit.
> How many fans explained the "Space Seed" to others who were not
> familiar with Khan when they saw TWOK for the first time?  I know
> I did, and it only added to make TWOK a richer film than any of
> others.
>
> Maybe for the next Star Trek picture they should continue another
> episode and continue it.  Lots of material there.

From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@csnet-relay.arpa> (Eleanor Evans)
> I vote for Star Trek IV.  It was closest to the original spirit of
> the series itself.  It had the best interplay of characters, and
> best reflected the original values of the series and its creator.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 87 14:16:42 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179@BROWNVM>
Subject: Warp 8+

I have a theory about why the Enterprise had to stay at Warp 8 or
below during the series. Since the series, we have found out that
the Enterprise has inertial dampers. Once you get above Warp 8, a
small variation in warp factor could force the dampers to make such
a large correction that the ship couldn't stand it. Does anybody
know for sure if this is the explanation?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 23:48 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Enterprise & the USN

The first increment of this document (a summary of the first
5 ships) is completed (more or less).  I will not be posting this
to sf-lovers.  If you are interested in receiving this via email,
and have not yet let me know, please let me know.

Rich Welty
welty@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun 1 Feb 87 11:29:04-CST
From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re: "origin of Saavik"

Lisa writes:

>Obviously, Saavik is a Vulcan who's had a sex change operation.
>Didn't you wonder why Kirk called her "Mister"?

`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to
members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing
to do with the sex of the addressee.  Anyone out there in the navy
want to back me up on this?

Regards,
Bill

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 31 Jan 1987 08:31:40-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: The first Star Trek novel [was re: transportation]

> From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
> ...In fact, the idea was used to provide the entire plot for James
> Blish's excellent Star Trek novel "Spock Must Die!"  (the first ST
> novel ever, folks!)...

Sorry, but Mack Reynolds has that honor. Whitman (a juvenile imprint
that published a lot of tv tie-ins) released his STAR TREK: MISSION
TO HORATIUS in 1968 --- two years before Bantam published SPOCK MUST
DIE! These remained the only two original Trek novels
(professionally published, that is) until 1976.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 87 09:20 CDT
From: Get this D**N machine off my case!
From: <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: ST - reliving the past

>This does bring up the interesting question of what happens when
>they again get to the point of having to start the engines again.
>Or is it not their destiny to have that happen?  Or is it and are
>they really stuck in an infinite loop somewhere?  Or has someone
>already discussed this on the net and I'm just making a fool of
>myself???...

As I recall, at the end of that episode, they have three days to
live again, not to live OVER again.  Kirk says, "...fortunately, not
the same three days..."  (or something like that).  They still have
the data they recorded about the planet's breakup, so they have
finished their mission here and can head on about their business.

Eleanor
evans%ngstl1%ti-eg

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 04:40:51 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMB.BITNET
Subject: Re: Warp 8+

ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET says:
>I have a theory about why the Enterprise had to stay at Warp 8 or
>below during the series. Since the series, we have found out that
>the Enterprise has inertial dampers. Once you get above Warp 8, a
>small variation in warp factor could force the dampers to make such
>a large correction that the ship couldn't stand it. Does anybody
>know for sure if this is the explanation?

     The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just
can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds.  Above warp 6,
they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper
limit without an immediate burn-out.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 87 17:08:04 PST
From: raoul@Jpl-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek

I wish to add my voice that STII has so far been the best of the
four ST movies so far.  I kind of think they "made" STIV simply
because it was forseen that nothing more could come of it.  Or they
ran out of good ideas.  Why not milk the ST fans one more time....

Al

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 87 8:41:17 EST
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc5.bbn.com>
Subject: Star Trek 0: "The Cage"

I rented "The Cage" a few weekends ago, and am finally getting
around to posting a few comments.  As is probably well known, it has
been issued with the parts used in "Menagerie" printed in color,
with the parts that had to be restored from the original pilot in
black and white, presumably because no color print of the entire
pilot remains.  In addition, Gene Roddenberry opens and closes the
tape with some history and interesting anecdotes (most of which was
not new to me, except I finally learned, from one who should know,
how to pronounce 'Majel').  My comments are not in any special
order.  They are also pretty random in content -- just things I
noticed or wondered about.

First, I didn't remember some of the parts in color from
"Menagerie"; this could be because I saw it on broadcast TV, so it
was probably missing pieces.  But there were parts in black and
white which I did remember having seen, so I conclude that the color
vs.  black and white distinction should be taken with a grain of
salt.

In the pilot, passage of time (for the interstellar trip to Talos IV
to rescue the 'survivors') was explicitly depicted by a montage of
the Enterprise flying through space with the Courage theme playing
(in the foreground?).  This was an interesting idea which did not
survive into the series, for good reason in my opinion.

A very small role was that of transporter officer.  I don't know who
played him, but the voice sounded exactly like the voice on the
"Mission Impossible" tapes ("... will self destruct in five seconds.
Good luck, Jim!").  Anyone know who played this part?  Or who did
the MI voice?

As has been noted, the voice of the 'Keeper' was redubbed by a new
actor for "Menagerie".  The voice heard on the black and white parts
is quite different.  I think I like the new voice better, but if I
hadn't seen "Menagerie" before, the original voice would not have
ruined the episode for me.  I suppose that the original actor was
not available for the additional 'Keeper' lines in "Menagerie," so
they had the new one redo him.

Spock's character is in many ways quite different in the Kirk era,
in part I suppose because he took on some of the characteristics of
'Number One,' who disappeared after "The Cage".  However, his two
lines about the Enterprise being swatted as one might at a fly were,
I thought, particularly reminiscent of the modern Spock.

(SPOILER, maybe) One question I always had when watching "Menagerie"
concerned the ending, where Pike is beamed down to Talos IV and is
seen on the viewscreen walking away with the girl.  It didn't fit in
with what I had heard about "The Cage," and I always wondered if
they had got Jeff Hunter and Susan Oliver back to film that one
scene especially for "Menagerie".  I now understand where that scene
came from in "The Cage," though its significance there is rather
different.  Nothing special had to be done for "Menagerie" after
all.

I hope I wasn't too long winded.  Comments welcome.

JBL

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 17:36:02 GMT
From: ems!adam@rutgers.edu (Mark L. Baum)
Subject: Re: Star Trek 0: "The Cage"

levin@cc5.bbn.com writes:
>First, I didn't remember some of the parts in color from
>"Menagerie"; this could be because I saw it on broadcast TV, so it
>was probably missing pieces.  But there were parts in black and
>white which I did remember having seen, so I conclude that the
>color vs.  black and white distinction should be taken with a grain
>of salt.

No, it simply needs a little more explanation.  Gene Roddenberry
gave a lecture in my area last summer, and he ended it by showing
his uncut black- and-white print of "The Cage".  I can assure you
that the composite released by Paramount recently (episode 1, by the
way) contains exactly the same material.  When the color print was
cut up and used in "The Menagerie", some parts of it were shrunk and
displayed on a screen in the Enterprise's briefing room, where the
trial was taking place.  These would be the parts you remember
seeing, but which remained black-and-white in the composite.  (And I
wish they had used the Keeper's original voice throughout.  Oh
well.)

Mark Baum

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 14:54:55 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: "origin of Saavik"

From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
>Lisa writes:
>>Obviously, Saavik is a Vulcan who's had a sex change operation.
>>Didn't you wonder why Kirk called her "Mister"?
>
>`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to
>members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing
>to do with the sex of the addressee.  Anyone out there in the navy
>want to back me up on this?

Strange I thought it was only used to refer to officers of lower
rank than Captain by other officers. Seamen were/are known solely by
their surname and they addressed an officer by his title, or Mister
if he was a midshipman.  Above the rank of Lieutenant Officers
were/are referred to by there rank (Unless, of course Titles such as
Lord were also applicable )

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 87 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams & Asimov (3 msgs) & Bester &
                     Chalker & Duane (4 msgs) & Geis &
                     Harrison & Kay (2 msgs) & Vance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 87 00:48:02 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Ian_Nottage
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers.

   The only problem with Adams treatment was that while he was
writing the original version the story changed in a subtle manner.
When I first heard the radio show I was impressed, especially by the
BBC SFX Dept., but the book and the TV series were not too faithful.
Perhaps this is because, like the Goon Show, HH was written on a
week to week basis, and therefore DA cannot be expected to be
consistent.  Or can he?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 87 17:24:43 EST
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: MSG 219, Dani Zweig

OK, I'll confess total ignorance-- who *was* Hari Seldon ?  The
implication that "everybody knows that one" has definitely hit the
curiosity switch.

Regards,

Dave Wegener

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 19:30:04 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (E.Carpenter)
Subject: Re: MSG 219, Dani Zweig

 Hari Seldon- from Issac Asimov's "Foundation" series.
 He was basicly the planner/designer/psychometrician who charted the
tendency of humanity in the future and found that the Foundation(s)
were needed to prevent many centuries of war, death, and needless
destuction ( as well as minor things like the fall of galactic
civilization :-) ).

 Best details on Hari are probably in "Foundation", the first book
in the series.

 (Wasn't there a short story that Asimov did earlier which used Hari
as the prime figure?  So many stories.... I'm losing track of what
I've read!)

Eric Carpenter
ucdavis!deneb!ccs006

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 01:23:01 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Hari Seldon

If you don't know who Hari Seldon was then you probably haven't read
"Foundation", by Isaac Asimov.  If you haven't read "Foundation"
then you are probably not part of the science fiction subculture.
(Please!  No arguments about whether there is such a thing.)

A number of people have posted messages of the form "you told me
that xxxx was a must-read classic and I read it and.....".  There's
a problem.  When someone new to the genre asks me for
recommendations, I'm reluctant to point out the latest flash in the
pan.  I'd rather point to the books which introduced me to the genre
and which formed the genre as we know it today.  Books by Asimov and
Heinlein and Van Vogt, for example.

But these books are in many ways old hat today, even for people who
don't read science fiction, precisely because of their own successes
in molding our tastes, expectations and sophistication.  Worse,
they were written for an audience with different myths and
conventions.  Today's reader tends not to be impressed by weapons
which are powered by radium, by heroes with a look of eagles, by the
triumph of a previous generation's version of the American way.

Those of us who read these books years ago (or, let's admit it, as
teens) tend still to enjoy them.  In part this is because of their
emotional and nostalgic overlay.  In part this is because one
approaches a books that was written decades or centuries ago with a
different mindset than one approaches a new book.  (Certainly the
new books of these old-school authors are getting a cooler reception
than their old ones.  There may be another factor here: It is
impossible. today, to write the kind of book that was being written
thirty or fifty years ago unselfconsciously.)

So.  Hari Seldon is a pivotal figure (though he appears, in the
flesh, only at the start) in Isaac Asimov's classic "Foundation"
trilogy.  It's a great trilogy; read it.  If you read it and can't
figure out what the fuss is about, I refer you to another of
Asimov's books: "Before the Golden Age".

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 20:54:46 GMT
From: loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: The Stars My Destination

halloran@unirot.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes:
>twomey@sunybcs.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:

>>    5.I read a story where people would teleport themselves by
>>      "jaunting".  The method was discovered by some research
>>      doctor in his lab.

  ...unaware that the frontier of the mind had been opened near the
end of the 23rd century when a researcher named Jaunte set fire to
his bench and himself (accidentally) and let out a yell for help
with particular reference to a fire extinguisher. Who so surprised
Jaunte and his colleagues to find him alongside said extinguisher,
seventy feet removed from his lab bench.
  They put Jaunte out and went into the whys and wherefores of his
instantaneous seventy-foot journey. ....

>The story is the semi-classic 'The Stars My Destination' by Alfred

      STRIKE the "semi-"!

>Bester.  Protagonist is Gully Foyle.  He was the only survivor of a
>space freighter wreck in the asteroid belt and apparently managed
>to space-jaunt to a nearby inhabited asteroid.

  Nope, he fixed one of the Nomad's four engines and fired it up. He
happened to pass by the Sargasso Asteroid, and the Scientific People
caught the ship.  Regis Sheffield is the one who tells him about the
space-jaunte (Foyle: "I should have known. Sheffield the
arch-patriot, an O.S. agent.") It went something like this:
(Sheffield first)

  "No, the Nomad was too far from the major spacelanes. We took you
six hundred thousand miles sunward and set you adrift. There you
were, your suit lights blinking, mumbling for help on every
waveband. Then you were gone. The next thing we know, you show up on
the Nomad."
  "Huh?"
  "Man, you space-jaunted! You were patched up and delirious, but
you jaunted six hundred thousand miles back to the wreck of the
Nomad. We don't know how you did it, but we'll find out."

>His accomplishing this led to his being pursued by various
>corporate entities,

  Actually, it was the Outer Satellites spy network that was after
him for that. Presteign, Dagenham and Y'ang-Yeovil were after him
for something quite different.

>while he was after revenge on his employers for one of their ships
>passing him by in the wreck despite his signal flares, etc.

  Yeah. Vorga. Vorga-T:1339, registry Terra, owner Presteign.
Eventually (with some help) he smartens up, stops trying to destroy
the ship and starts hunting down the captain. That's when the story
gets interesting!

  For the poster who couldn't quite remember the three words to keep
in mind for a successful jaunte, recall Robin Wednesbury and her
jaunte class for brain-damage cases:

  "L-E-S, gentlemen. Remember that. Location. Elevation. Situation."

  Definitely one of my favorite books. First place is a constant
battle between "The Stars My Destination", "Re-Birth", and
"Stardance". BUT >|-( I loaned out my last copy, it never came back,
and the book is out of print AGAIN. Double >|-(.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 18:38:57 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

dennisg@fritz.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) writes:
>ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes:
>>One more note on teleportation. This comes from the Soul Rider
>>series by Jack Chalker. He has a system where teleportation is
>>done by supercomputers analyzing the atomic structure of the
>>object to be teleported and then reproducing it at the other end
>>out of a primal energy field called "flux".
>Yes, I remember this too.  Nice series of books, but Chalker does
>tend to get carried away on some topics (like sex).

The way he tells it, it sounds like Tor books can't get enough of
sex in the books he does for them. Sort of an 'X' rating, an 'R'
rating for his Del Rey books (who wouldn't accept the stuff he does
for Tor), and a 'PG' rating for his "G.O.D., Inc." series. (I think
that's Berkeley/ Putnam).

The "Well of Souls" series was his best. He won't come out and say
it, but I have the transcript of a conversation where he states that
"Midnight at the Well of Souls" is the book he'd like most to see on
film.

His least favorite book is "Web of the Chozen". He says he wrote it
on a dare to see if he could write a sellable book in less than a
month. But I thought "The Messiah Choice" was his worst - too much
like the "Soul Rider" series.

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 87 15:23:00 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179@BROWNVM>
Subject: Thieve's World

Someone commented about the stories in books 7+8 getting
pessimistic...How about Diane Duane's story where the two goddesses
and the dog have to go into the underworld with Ischade to bargain
for their lover's soul, and then find out that Hell isn't a bad as
it was cranked up to be? I think this one was in 7 (I really should
go back and re-read these....)

st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 87 15:17:41 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179@BROWNVM>
Subject: Diane Duane

What is this cartoon series that you people are talking about? Is it
on in America/Saturday mornings/etc.? Also I was under the
impression that Bluejay dropped the Middle Kingdoms series quite
some time ago, and it was switched to Tor, which got a new
introduction for TDiF from DED. Also, don't forget about DEEP
WIZARDRY, the sequel to SYWtBaW, which is still in hardcover.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 18:11:22 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: New Door-Into_Fire?

I have the original version of Duane's "The Door into Fire", and I'm
told that the current edition contains some changes.

Am I missing anything significant if I stick to the old one, or
should I runoutandbuy?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 87 21:50 EDT
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Diane Duane

As promised, a follow-up on the status of future Diane Duane novels:

"Wizards at Large", the third Kit/Nita novel, is currently being cut
to editorial specifications, and should be out in spring of 1988.

"The Door Into Sunset" is being written, and should be done this
spring sometime. Anticipated publication is therefore 1988; the
publisher is Tor. Given that Tor has a large inventory due to the
Bluejay breakup, it may be late 1988.

Diane was married at Boskone this weekend to Peter Morwood, whose
trilogy "The Book of Years" is just being published by DAW; the
first volume, entitled "The Horse Lord", was originally released in
Britain in 1983, and came out here a little under two months ago.
The second should be out in June of this year, and the final volume
sometime next winter.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@cs.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 87 22:35:22 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Geis is back

This was, of course, expected, but Dick Geis has returned from
retirement again.  Science Fiction Review (and his cohort, Alter
Ego) are still retired, but he's decided to expand his personalzine
Naked Id into a full fledged reviewzine called "Controversy in
Review."  This zine will look at not only Science Fiction, but
politics and anything else Geis finds interesting.

Geis is always someone to watch.  You won't always agree with him,
but he makes you think.  It also turns out he can't not publish a
magazine.  If you're interested in Controversy in Review, it is
bi-monthly, from P.O. Box 11408, Portland, OR. 97211.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 14:52:54 GMT
From: daa@cs.nott.ac.uk (David Allsopp)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

The Stainless Steel Rat books are, in chronological order:-

1. The Stainless Steel Rat Is Born
2. The Stainless Steel Rat
3. The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge
4. The Stainless Steel Rat Saves The World
5. The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You!
6. The Stainless Steel Rat For President

They were published in (almost) this order, except that (1) was
published last. For introductory reading, try the ordering
2,3,4,any, as all the main characters and gadgetry are introduced in
those three books. Sorry I can't give any publishing details, but my
collection is at home, and (obviously) they're all English editions
anyway.

Note that, as well as the board game that was originally in Ares,
there is (over here anyway) an adventure game book called "You Can
Be The Stainless Stell Rat!". This is similar in structure to all
such books (e.g. "Warlock Of Firetop Mountain" from Steve Jackson),
as you become Slippery Jim and undergo a series of hair-raising
brushes with death :-) It captures the spirit of the books very
well, and I think Harry Harrison helped write it.  *Minor Spoiler*
Um...well...let's say it isn't *too* difficult to complete
successfully...

As a sidenote, I started a (minor) discussion on the topic of a Rat
film about a year ago, as me & my friends have often thought that it
would make a *great* movie if only you could get a
director/screenwriter/entire cast with the correct bizarre sense of
humour. We could never think of anyone to play Slippery Jim, though,
so I asked the net for suggestions. The best one (well I thought so)
was Bruce Willis of "Moonlighting" fame. Didn't get any good
suggestions for an actress to play the delectable Angelina though...
(Jane Seymour? Sigourney Weaver? Jamie Lee Curtis?)

Anyway, the Rat books receive a hearty recommendation from me - I've
read them all many times and they *still* make me laugh.

David Allsopp

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 06:45:21 GMT
From: bogstad@brl-smoke.ARPA (William Bogstad )
Subject: Re: The Summer Tree

mschuck@watdcsu.UUCP ( SD) writes:
>Has the book _The_Summer_Tree_ by Guy Gavriel Kay been heard of out
>there?  It is a Tolkien-esque fantasy which (in my opinion anyway)
>is one of the best fantasies ever written.

   Yes, it has been sighted here.  I picked up a copy a couple of
months ago at a specialty SF/Fantasy bookstore.  I don't read much
fantasy, but the proprietor recommended it to me when I was in a
strange mood.  I enjoyed it a lot and have been watching to see if
the other volumes ever show up.  Do you know if Volume 2 is out in
paperback or just hardcover?

Bill Bogstad
bogstad@hopkins-eecs-bravo.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 14:48:46 GMT
From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: _Summer Tree_

Someone recently spoke highly of the book _The Summer Tree_, the
first of a trilogy.  I just noticed that all three books are listed
in the current SFBC (Sci Fi Book Club) notice.

alg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 17:03:39 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@rutgers.edu (Jim )
Subject: Re: Jack Vance's Demon Princes

>and incidentally I recommend the books highly, I think they are
>some of the best SF around.

I also enjoyed these books.  I would like to see one more book. I
think Jack Vance has an opportunity to write a truly great novel
with a final sequel.  Consider: here is a man (Kirth Gersen) whose
entire life from childhood has been built around revenge.  He has
amassed a fortune just for the purpose of carrying out the mission
of revenge.  He has shunned friendships and love because they could
stand in they way.  Now he has completed his task and all the "Demon
Princes" have been destroyed.  What does this person do now?  Can he
really do good with his fortune?  Can he now really make friendships
and experience love?  I suspect not.  He might even become like the
evil "Demon Princes" he destroyed.  In any case, I would like to see
a novel which examines these questions and shows the struggle of
Kirth Gersen to rebuild his life.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 87 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #51
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:

          Films - War Games (3 msgs) & Gor & Star Fighter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 28 Jan 87 15:59:41-EST
From: eric (wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@weslyan.bitnet)
Subject: War Games

I don't think the question "Can you really reach the military
through a public phone line" is relevant.

In the movie, at the first meeting of the Big Brass to figure out
what happened, the funny looking bald programmer guy states, quite
emphatically, "The Phone Company screwed up !"

Truly  this statement transcends the realm of Science Fiction .....

eric j simon
wesleyan university
wccs.e-simon%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 19:09:24 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper
Subject: Re: WAR GAMES (was about Hogan)

mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP writes:
>leeper@mtgzz.UUCP writes:
>> Last time I watched this film I wrote down what I thought were
>> errors and absurdities as they came up in the film.  I ended up
>> with exactly one for every two minutes of screen time.
> So, don't keep us wondering....what were they?  Sounds
> interesting!

I hate to do this!  I just scrawled them on paper while watching the
film last time.  Evelyn typed them in, with some typos and published
them in the AT&T science fiction club notice, with some
understandable typos.  I am not sure what a number of the comments
meant.  I am just afraid that I will be embroiled in long
discussions about whether these really are absurdities.  I will tell
you in advance, I am publishing the list, but I really don't want to
discuss it and I reserve the right to ignore replies.  Here then is
the list.  Make of it what you can.

  1.  A thump shouldn't reset the alarm
  2.  WOPR is a stupid-looking machine with a stupid name
  3.  WOPR wasn't designed to replace humans
  4.  Symbiosis is not why nitrogen nodules stick to plant roots
  5.  The kid has an absurd array of computer equipment
  6.  The modem is too noisy
  7.  The terminal is running at over 9600 baud over phone lines,
      unlikely
  8.  Trying to call every number in four exchanges is infeasible
      time wise
  9.  No system gives you help BEFORE login
 10.  No system gives you information before you've logged in
 11.  You can't use a backdoor to get around data encryption
 12.  NORAD would monitor the false login attempts
 13.  After logging in, he wouldn't get data that fast
 14.  Computers cannot converse in such fluent English
 15.  The boy couldn't build such a voice box
 16.  The computer would not ask about checkers instead
 17.  Powering down the terminal wouldn't kill the screens at NORAD
 18.  WOPR wouldn't have been able to trace the call
 19.  WOPR wouldn't have an ACU for security reasons
 20.  After disconnecting the line, the terminal wouldn't keep
      running the game
 21.  They don't give tours of the war room among the consoles
 22.  WOPR wouldn't have an open line in Sunnyvale
 23.  WOPR wouldn't still be in use after 11 years
 24.  They couldn't have connected the boy to reservations made in
      the girl's name
 25.  The kid wouldn't be left alone with a computer terminal at NORAD
 26.  The NORAD administrator wouldn't have a voice box in his office
 27.  WOPR wouldn't have a will of its own
 28.  WOPR wouldn't have access to personnel files
 29.  The boy wouldn't be left alone a second time
 30.  The boy wouldn't know the inside of the circuitry
 31.  The lock would not operate by sound alone
 32.  The boy wouldn't just happen to also be a superior athlete
 33.  The air vents would not be unsecured at NORAD
 34.  The expert would have no trouble opening the door
 35.  The phone mouthpiece on a pay phone is not removable
 36.  Pay telephones cannot be bypassed with a conductor anymore
 37.  WOPR would not be making the boy's moves for him in the game
 38.  They are F-15's instead of F-16's
 39.  The computer scientist would not be trying to teach a computer
      futility
 40.  Intelligence would not just be telling about bombers
      projecting radar images
 41.  They wouldn't be able to run the jeep through a sealed gate
 42.  They wouldn't be allowed to just run through the front door
      at DEFCON 2
 43.  Falken can't assume that the enemy won't attack
 44.  WOPR would not wipe out the password file as a means of
      security
 45.  One level entry, echoed password doesn't seem to be in effect
      anymore
 46.  It would be impossible to predict exactly when launch codes
      will be guessed
 47.  WOPR wouldn't let them run games without a login
 48.  WOPR wouldn't know it had four correct digits
 49.  Tictactoe is a poor way to demonstrate the principle to
      the computer
 50.  Computers do not explode when they overload
 51.  WOPR would not start playing out scenarios at launch time
 52.  WOPR would have figured out long ago that it couldn't win
 53.  Winning would not be well-defined and binary
 54.  WOPR wouldn't say "the only way to win is not to play"
 55.  WOPR doesn't use natural strategy
 56.  The boy has antiquated equipment

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 19:40:28 GMT
From: csun!aeusesef@rutgers.edu (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: WarGames

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP writes:

>  1.  A thump shouldn't reset the alarm
>  2.  WOPR is a stupid-looking machine with a stupid name

True, so true.

>  3.  WOPR wasn't designed to replace humans

No, but the humans had a high probability of screwing up (in the
eyes of the military), so this was a solution (stupid, I agree).

>  4.  Symbiosis is not why nitrogen nodules stick to plant roots

Idiocy, just idiocy.

>  5.  The kid has an absurd array of computer equipment
>  6.  The modem is too noisy
>  7.  The terminal is running at over 9600 baud over phone lines,
>      unlikely

I laughed at these.

>  8.  Trying to call every number in four exchanges is infeasible
>      timewise

But many people do it (I have several times).

>  9.  No system gives you help BEFORE login
> 10.  No system gives you information before you've logged in

Yeah, but this is the *military* (8-)).

> 11.  You can't use a backdoor to get around data encryption

Supposedly, the backdoor would take care of that too.

> 12.  NORAD would monitor the false login attempts

I should hope so.  I guess they do now ;-)

> 13.  After logging in, he wouldn't get data that fast
> 14.  Computers cannot converse in such fluent English

The computer was supposed to be at least semi-artifically
intelligent.  More below.

> 15.  The boy couldn't build such a voice box

Well, he could, but a) it wouldn't sound like that, and b) it
wouldn't look like that.

> 16.  The computer would not ask about checkers instead

It thought the boy was the creator, and enjoyed playing chess (not
checkers) with him.

> 17.  Powering down the terminal wouldn't kill the screens at NORAD

No, but the computer was awfully upset, I think, and may have gone
into "shock" for long time (maybe even milliseconds 8-)).

> 18.  WOPR wouldn't have been able to trace the call

Why not?  They were on long enough, and the military traced it also.
I am sure they used computers, and WOPR (aka Joshua) was probably
hooked up to those.

> 19.  WOPR wouldn't have an ACU for security reasons
> 20.  After disconnecting the line, the terminal wouldn't keep
>      running the game

Sure it would.  Terminals and programs are not connected.  Not every
system has to have the equivalent of SIGHUP (although it does make
things nicer).

> 21.  They don't give tours of the war room among the consoles

Rather fun, that, eh?

> 22.  WOPR wouldn't have an open line in Sunnyvale

That was a screw up with the phone company!! The special lines the
military were using (and they must use them, either that or broadcast
all the information they need to run WOPR).

> 23.  WOPR wouldn't still be in use after 11 years

Why not?  We have old Cybers still running?  Anyway, no one ever
said that the machine was eleven years old, only that Professor .*
had been working on it for eleven years.  (If I remember correctly,
he left the project only a couple of years before the movie took
place).

> 24.  They couldn't have connected the boy to reservations made in
>      the girl's name

I never was able to understand that.  Maybe they did a check of all
the numbers the kid had dialed (since he was probably using some
sort of black box, this might either be easy or difficult, depending
on the model), looked into all the transactions, and then made a
connection.

> 25.  The kid wouldn't be left alone with a computer terminal at
>      NORAD

They didn't think he would be able to do anything.

> 26.  The NORAD administrator wouldn't have a voice box in his
>      office

Didn't you know?  All VT999 terminals (like the one in his office)
have built in voice synthesizers! 8-)

> 27.  WOPR wouldn't have a will of its own

The original aim of the project was to create a program that could
learn from its mistakes.  This is a *long* way to AI (remember, this
was supposed to be for any game you could teach the computer, and
you could also teach it English this way).  Obviously, they *did*
reach true AI at some point, and the "Joshua" backdoor woke it up
(it was probably lonely for attention, like a little puppy).

> 28.  WOPR wouldn't have access to personnel files

Again, why not?  It was definitely linked up to other computers, and
maybe even used NFS (8-)), so it could look at the files.  In its
case, personnel files of some type were necessary, as it needed to
know how many people were at which base, and what the people could
do (necessary war game information).

> 29.  The boy wouldn't be left alone a second time

He was locked up!

> 30.  The boy wouldn't know the inside of the circuitry

No, but even *I* could have figured it out under these circumstances
(adrenalin rush and all that).

> 31.  The lock would not operate by sound alone

No, no, no.  Remember, you can get a push-button pad, just like the
one there, and either hook it up to wires or speakers.  The earphone
merely reconverted it back to electric signals.  (He had the
microphone hooked up to the circuitry, remember). I do doubt that it
could work that well, however.

> 32.  The boy wouldn't just happen to also be a superior athlete

Huh?  I missed something?  He was definitely *not* an athlete.  But
remember, his was also terrified, and fear does wonderful things to
the human body.

> 33.  The air vents would not be unsecured at NORAD

Normally, everyone in there was *supposed* to be there, so that
would not be a major problem ('tis curious, though).

> 34.  The expert would have no trouble opening the door

The door computer was short-circuited, though.  They had to bypass
it to open it, and that *could* be a problem under some
circumstances.

> 35.  The phone mouthpiece on a pay phone is not removable
> 36.  Pay telephones cannot be bypassed with a conductor anymore

That was an *old* phone, out on a *rural* dirt road, probably in
some *small* town, so who knows, it might work.

> 37.  WOPR would not be making the boy's moves for him in the game

It was assuming that he would be making certain moves, based on the
Professor's games with it.

> 38.  They are F-15's instead of F-16's

Don't remember it, not much of a problem.

> 39.  The computer scientist would not be trying to teach a
>      computer futility

Why not?  That is part of common sense, another major portion of
intelligence.  At that point, I think I would be.

> 40.  Intelligence would not just be telling about bombers
>      projecting radar images

Just because the people there are highly placed, doesn't mean that
they get or retain all information there is.  They may not have been
told because it was new information, being followed up, or they may
have forgotten.

> 41.  They wouldn't be able to run the jeep through a sealed gate

Jeeps are pretty sturdy, and *can* run through fences.  If it had a
charge, on the other hand...

> 42.  They wouldn't be allowed to just run through the front door
>      at DEFCON 2

They were probably in a state of panic, and the lady had yelled, "I
vouch for them," or something like that.

> 43.  Falken can't assume that the enemy won't attack

*What* enemy?  He was pretty sure it was a simulation, and *common
sense* usually says that the enemy won't attack first unless there
are pretty good odds of winning, or the leaders are insane.  Since
the odds were only about even, or not even that good, the enemy
probably had *not* initiated conflict.

> 44.  WOPR would not wipe out the password file as a means of
>      security

Why not?  Sounds like a great way to make sure nobody disturbs you
when you need all the processing power you can get.

> 45.  One level entry, echoed password doesn't seem to be in
>      effect anymore

Of course not?  Maybe on private terminals, but on the large
consoles echoing would be a bad idea.

> 46.  It would be impossible to predict exactly when launch codes
>      will be guessed

Not exactly, but "within" a certain time.

> 47.  WOPR wouldn't let them run games without a login

Probably backup security, in case /etc/passwd (8-)) was deleted.

> 48.  WOPR wouldn't know it had four correct digits

I did think that was stupid.

> 49.  Tictactoe is a poor way to demonstrate the principle to the
>      computer

It was the only one they had.

> 50.  Computers do not explode when they overload

It had a fit of frustration, and did the equivilent of pounding its
fists: sending a circuit overload.

> 51.  WOPR would not start playing out scenarios at launch time
> 52.  WOPR would have figured out long ago that it couldn't win
> 53.  Winning would not be well-defined and binary
> 54.  WOPR wouldn't say "the only way to win is not to play"

All most likely very true (the last, however is somewhat debatable,
haven't we been thinking the same thing about nuclear attacks for
the past decade or two?).

> 55.  WOPR doesn't use natural strategy

It had to base its plans on what it thought the enemy would do.  To
win, there are only so many differenct possibilities, none of which
seemed to result in a viable ending.

> 56.  The boy has antiquated equipment

He was a *kid*, getting whatever he could for as little as possible.
Probably some school sold of their IMSAI (my high school had one
last time I checked, they were thinking about giving it away).

For all of its faults, I *did* enjoy the movie.

Sean Fagan
Computer Center
CSUN
18111 Nordhoff St.
Northridge, CA  91330
aeusesef@csun.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Feb 87 09:12:59-PST
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: Oh My God! GOR Movies

A friend of mine showed me a blurb in the March issue of Playboy
that makes mention that there are two GOR movies in production from
Cannon Films (Golan-Globus Productions).  It's probably one of those
cases where enough is filmed at one time to make two movies (like
Richard Chamberlain's Quartermain flicks).  Anyway, the titles are
_GOR_ and _OUTLAW OF GOR_.  It (these?) star Oliver Reed, Jack
Palance, Urbano Barberini and Rebecca Ferratti (Miss June 1986) as
Talena.  Probably will be out in video REAL fast but Cannon will
probably consider these as "A" titles.

Walter Chapman
SRI Int'l.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 19:08:01 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Star Fighter

jao@valid.UUCP writes:
>... failed science fiction produced for non sf-lovers.  This
>usually be a movie (such as "The Star Fighter")

I must disagree with this assessment.  I thought "Star Fighter" was
not 'failed science fiction produced for non sf-lovers', but a
*great* parody of science fiction movies.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 87 0937-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #52
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Chalker (4 msgs) &
                             Herbert (6 msgs) &
                             Laumer (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 08:05:03 PST (Friday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

Tim Maroney writes:
>This one of the few redeeming features to appear in some of Jack
>Chalker, at least in his best work, the Well World stories.  These
>are highly entertaining by virtue of Chalker's not-yet-dry
>imagination and as a result of the scale of the conceptions, the
>feeling of putting the cosmos in reach.  You might want to try
>"Midnight at the Well of Souls" and read the rest if you like it.

*********** Generalized Diffuse Spoiler Possible Here ************

Unfortunately, Jack Chalker's brand of SF seems to have only one
trick as far as I can tell. His books all seem to follow the same
formula:

   1. Invent an odd universe.
   2. Produce an omnipotent and incomprehensible technology.
   3. Use that technology to irrevocably alter characters.
   4. Describe the fallout from the alteration.
   5. When this has been made excruciatingly boring, tell us that
      the changes are really NOT irrevocable.
   6. repeat steps 2-6 ad infinitum.

While this may be a sure algorithm for books which sell, I had hoped
for something a little more. Maybe an interesting puzzle or two, or
a neat surprise or two on how the technology can be used for more
ordinary events. His books are very good, but I would hardly hold
them up as the archetypal 'not-yet-dry' imagination.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 18:43:17 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>This one of the few redeeming features to appear in some of Jack
>Chalker, at least in his best work, the Well World stories.

Well-World was conceived beyond Chalker's ability to execute.  It
reads far too much like a gaming scenario to me.  Now, the flux and
anchor books strike me as "big" stories, and well executed.

David Dyer-Bennet
usenet: ...viper!ddb
Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 04:24:39 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
>Unfortunately, Jack Chalker's brand of SF seems to have only one
>trick as far as I can tell. His books all seem to follow the same
>formula:
>   1. Invent an odd universe.
>   2. Produce an omnipotent and incomprehensible technology.
>   3. Use that technology to irrevocably alter characters.
>   4. Describe the fallout from the alteration.
>   5. When this has been made excruciatingly boring, tell us
>      that the changes are really NOT irrevocable.
>   6. repeat steps 2-6 ad infinitum.
>While this may be a sure algorithm for books which sell, I had
>hoped for something a little more. Maybe an interesting puzzle or
>two, or a neat surprise or two on how the technology can be used
>for more ordinary events. His books are very good, but I would
>hardly hold them up as the archetypal 'not-yet-dry' imagination.

It all depends on what period you're talking about.  When I said his
imagination was not yet dry in reference to the Well World books, I
meant that it hadn't run dry when he wrote those books, but that it
had later.  You are quite right that many of his later novels amount
to churned-out rehashes of the same themes of character
transformation, and I would not recommend them for that reason.  But
in such earlier novels as "Midnight at the Well of Souls", "A War of
Shadows", and "Or the Devil Will Drag You Under" (three very
dissimilar books), his imagination is fresh, the ground previously
untilled, the characters often trite but rarely flat, the plots
engaging, and in general the reading experience quite pleasant if
scarcely profound.  I also found his "Four Lords of the Diamond"
series pleasing, and to a lesser extent the "Soul Rider" trilogy.

One consistency running through most of Chalker's stories involving
space is the Confederacy, an unusual sort of "Galactic Empire".  The
citizens have been genetically engineered to be pleasant, beautiful,
and intelligent, life is happy and predictable, and life is, well,
just sort of missing something.  But no one knows this except
frontier explorers, who have some rather unfunny mental problems of
their own, and Bradbury-style lamentations or melodramatic exposes
of the rotten core of the society are absent.  Dystopia has come not
through a bang or even a whimper, but simply through gradual loss of
variety, imperceptible in any generation.  It will probably stay
that way once it gets there, because no one notices.  Overall I find
it a much more disquieting vision of the future than any number of
evil empires brought down by a few good men or stories about zombies
awakening in a future without horror novels.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 87 02:22:23 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Chalker and Time--Again

This isn't the first time he's made this mistake.

**Very Mild Spoiler**

In Labyrinth of Dreams, he has a large number of 'parallel'
universes, all created at the time of the big bang.  The ones
further from the 'center' run more quickly.  The characters spend a
year there and only a few days have passed at home.

Well, if our universe is 20 billion years old, to pick a number,
that one should be 2 trillion years old!  That world wouldn't make a
very plausible parallel.  Chalker seems to assume that one universe
will run a hundred times as fast as another -- starting yesterday.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 20:02:16 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Herbert, as always, served a cold dish with characters as flat as
>halibuts, their heads removed, arranged in a peculiarly shallow and
>static fashion.  The ideas involved are familiar: nomadic
>lifetsyles, corrupt merchant princes, alien life forms, scientific
>meditators who compute or stop their metabolism at will.  None was
>ever particularly inspiring by itself, and nothing redeems them
>from the usual melange in this book.

Not as always!  As *usual*, yes, but the White Plague is an
exception to Herbert's usual poor writing.  I've read it twice now,
and my second reading was no less enjoyable than the first.  I still
despise the Dune books, though -- ALL the Dune books.

I recommend to anybody _The White Plague_, as one of those
frightening- because-it's-not-unbelievable-near-future-disaster
books.  Readable with well-developed characters and a believable
world/situation.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 08:05:03 PST (Friday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

Dune discusses many issues which are not common in SF: The nature of
belief and religion, and more important, the subtle and addictive
effects of power and other things on an individual. Dune seemed to
me to be a story dealing with various forms of addiction in
relatively interesting ways. As such, it caught and held my
attention with new ideas and new thoughts on what it means to be
addicted to (ideas, honor, power, drugs, physical things, money,
youth, intrigue), and how crippling such addictions could be no
matter what the benefits they offer. Each of these sorts of
addiction is examined in Dune. Potent thoughts, it seems to me, well
worth Hugo/Nebula award status. The rest of the series never reached
that status, unfortunately.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 17:14:15 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Other Herbert Works

Many people seem to overlook Frank Herbert's other works in favor of
his _Dune_ hexology (hexology?).  Recently, I read a collection of
some older and newer short stories of his in a book called _Eye_.  I
found most of them pretty interesting.  It was even better
considering that it may very well be Herbert's last published work
(unless there is some "lost" work somewhere else).I wish that he
were still around to continue writing.

Some of his other novels that I have enjoyed are _Whipping Star_
_The Dosadi Experiment_(though not nearly as good as WS), _The Eyes
of Heisenberg_(not a lot of action, but a rather chilling story,
when you think about it) and _The Green Brain_(now this one was
unusual).

I would definitely recommend _Eye_ to any Herbert fans or
non-Herbert fans. The style is quite different from that of _Dune_,
and the stories read well.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 18:43:17 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Herbert, as always, served a cold dish with characters as flat as
>halibuts, their heads removed, arranged in a peculiarly shallow and
>static fashion.

Doesn't sound like we read the same book.  Certainly tastes differ
(I think Dune is one of the 5 best sf books ever) but I find it
nearly impossible to recognize the book from your description; I
found the characters to be the strongest part of the book.

David Dyer-Bennet
usenet: ...viper!ddb
Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 04:24:39 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
>Dune discusses many issues which are not common in SF: The nature
>of belief and religion, and more important, the subtle and
>addictive effects of power and other things on an individual. Dune
>seemed to me to be a story dealing with various forms of addiction
>in relatively interesting ways. As such, it caught and held my
>attention with new ideas and new thoughts on what it means to be
>addicted to (ideas, honor, power, drugs, physical things, money,
>youth, intrigue), and how crippling such addictions could be no
>matter what the benefits they offer. Each of these sorts of
>addiction is examined in Dune. Potent thoughts, it seems to me,
>well worth Hugo/Nebula award status. The rest of the series never
>reached that status, unfortunately.

Dune's future medievalism is hardly new in science fiction; it is a
rather trite staple of the genre.  The idea of power addicts and
monarchical power plays has been the backbone of more space operas
than you can shake an inertial drive at.  The religious structures
seemed artificial and dry to me.  What was it about them you found
revealing and new?  It is not, after all, enough simply to discuss
something; one must have something in particular to say about it.
You claim Herbert's themes are strong; very well then, what are
they?  Surely "power corrupts" and "it is easy to become obsessed
with things" are not all there is to his ideas.

You seem consistently to lean on Dune's supposedly provocative ideas
to support its worth.  But Dune is a novel, not a series of short
essays.  With flat characters, unengaging plot, dull settings,
plodding style, and no consistent theme, it is impossible for a book
to succeed as a novel.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 21:56:54 GMT
From: wes@ukecc.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: DUNE series

The last two books in the Dune series are the equal of the first.
"Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse Dune" chronicle the results of
Leto's Scattering of humanity, with the return of 'Honored Matres'
<no, I won't give any spoilers!! 8^> >

Read them!  They bring the Dune series to a nice close, with room
left for future volumes, should anyone have the guts to try.

Wes Morgan
UUCP:       !cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!wes
CSNET:      wes@engr.uky.csnet
BITNET:     wes%ukecc.uucp@ukma

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 12:22:05 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Laumer's Retief series

From:   fluke!moriarty  (Jeff Meyer)
> Anyone read Keith Laumer's RETIEF books, about diplomat and cad
> James Retief?  Jan Strnad and Dennis Fujitake are doing it, and it
> looks promising.

I'm very much looking forward to the comic. I don't know how well
Strnad will adapt the stories, but I think that Fujitake will be
just right for the art.

Keith Laumer's Retief stories are *very* funny (though it's very
easy to o.d. on them). Basicly, Retief is the only person in the
Corps Diplolomatique Terrestrienne (CDT) who has an inkling about
how to deal with anyone, human or not. I'd say that they read about
the same as, to use a comic book referent, Foglio's MYTH ADVENTURES
or Templeton's STIG'S INFERNO on the chuckle-ometer.  I recommend
that you pick up the Retief collections with the earliest of the
short stories. The later short stories and almost all of the novels
aren't quite up to the quality of the earlier shorts. The Retief
books have been packaged and re-packaged and re-re-packaged (mostly
because of Jim Baen), but I'd say that the core Retief collection
would be:

RETIEF UNBOUND     RETIEF AT LARGE     RETIEF: DIPLOMAT-AT-ARMS

(These are re-packagings of the collections ENVOY TO NEW WORLDS,
GALACTIC DIPLOMAT, and RETIEF: AMBASSADOR TO SPACE, and the novel
RETIEF'S RANSOM). The only other "essential" book would be the novel
RETIEF'S WAR (the only really good Retief novel). I'm not sure
exactly what's in print these days, if any of them are, so I'd
suggest that you look in some used-bookstores for them.

I'm not up to doing a full Retief bibliography right now, but if
there's enough interest, I could probably have my arm twisted.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 16:25:54 GMT
From: thumper!sdh@rutgers.edu (Retief of the CDT)
Subject: Re: Laumer's Retief series

> RETIEF UNBOUND     RETIEF AT LARGE     RETIEF: DIPLOMAT-AT-ARMS
>
> (These are re-packagings of the collections ENVOY TO NEW WORLDS,
> GALACTIC DIPLOMAT, and RETIEF: AMBASSADOR TO SPACE, and the novel
> RETIEF'S RANSOM). The only other "essential" book would be the
> novel RETIEF'S WAR (the only really good Retief novel). I'm not
> sure exactly what's in print these days, if any of them are, so
> I'd suggest that you look in some used-bookstores for them.

Just like to point out that there is a new Retief book, Retief in
the Ruins.  It is status quo for Retief.  As far as sf is concerned,
its not earth shattering, but merely entertaining.

Also there is another book concerning the Bolo tanks entitled, Rogue
Bolo that was released within the past year or two.

For no particular reason I read every book by Keith Laumer that I
could get my hands on.  Two months and some 30 books later, I agree
with the assertion that one can o.d. on Retief.  In general, there
were only a few books that I found especially interesting: the
original Bolo novel, A Plague of Demons, The Star Chamber, and a
couple others that the titles have slipped my mind.  The rest are
OK, good for reading if you have nothing else to do with your time,
but not much else

Steve Hawley
bellcore!sdh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 87 0955-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:

        Television - Lost in Space & Japanimation (6 msgs) &
                     Blake's 7 (6 msgs) & Starman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 12:55:30 GMT
From: rayssd!gmp@rutgers.edu
Subject: the Bloop converted to fuel?

A friend of mine here at work insists that the Bloop (the chimp with
Mickey Mouse ears) on TV's Lost_In_Space met its eventual end by
being converted to deutronium as a result of one of Dr. Smith's
schemes run afoul.  I find this quite hard to believe, but I can't
remember what happened to the Bloop, so can hardly claim he's wrong.
He says this happened in the episode with deutronium drinking
plants.  Oh yeah, I forgot, there were about 15 episodes with fuel
eating plants -- this is the one where Judy gets duplicated.

Can anyone prove my buddy wrong?

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM
{cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,uiucdcs}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 03:32:55 GMT
From: lsuc!jimomura@rutgers.edu
Subject: Robotech

   First, regarding music, I've heard that Minmei sings a more
varied repetoire in the original Japanese version.  This raises the
question of who wrote the music in the North American version.  I
understand that the theme music was Harmony Gold's addition, as is
some (most? all?) of the incidental music.  Who wrote the music for
Minmei's songs?  Are they completely new for North America or are
they just translations?

   I've been finding more Robotech paraphenalia lately.  I just
picked up "ROBOTECH The Role-Playing Game" by Kevin Siembieda.  It's
published by Palladium Books.  ISBN 0-916211-21-5.

   This is a really good source book for Robotech information.  It
draws from many sources including Japanese books ("Memory Perfect"
and "The Macross Guide Books").  It does bring to light some
discrepancies.  It's interesting that Tatsunoko did such a *good*
job of maintaining reasonably consistent scale despite the inherent
problems of working with such a difficult set of objects, but here's
one error I spotted:

   Zentraedi personnel tend to be roughly 10X the size of humans.
They might range from 40' to 50' (possibly to 60') in height.
Miriya in particular doesn't seem to be particularly short.  As a
micronized Zentraedi she turns out to be 5' 10" according to the
book.  We see her get into her battle armour in one episode and it's
clear that the armour is *not* close fitting and in fact her arms
and legs do *not* actually fit into the arms and legs of the battle
armour.  Rather, she seems to be sitting inside the chest area.
This makes some sense when you see the rest of the Zentraedi
technology.  When you see her getting into the armour, it's clearly
in the order of about 2X her height.  The book lists the height of
the battle armour as 55'.  This can't be right.  It has to be more
like 100'.

   That's just something that sticks out as a clear mistake.  There
are likely others.

Cheers!

Jim O.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Feb 87 09:27:49-PST
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
Subject: MACROSS Movie

A while back there was a mention of a MACROSS movie entitled
_DO_YOU_ REMEMBER_LOVE_.  Frequenting my local Japantown video store
I have rented said movie (in Japanese, of course) and the Nihon
folks that own the store says the title translates to
_REMEMBER_MY_LOVE_ (or "Remember, My Love" [note comma]).  Anyway,
in Hi-Fi stereo the sound is terrific as well as some of MinMei's
singing although comparing it to ROBOTECH is an insult to the movie.
Characterization is quite different as well as uniforms and
situations.  I would recommend watching this film in the original
Japanese since everyone now seems fairly informed as to the
background of the series/film and therefore the film can be easily
under- stood.  Other animated recommendations: _ODIN_ and
_DIRTY_PAIR:_AFFAIR_ OF_NOLANDIA_.

Walter Chapman
SRI Int'l.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 18:28:01 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck)
Subject: Re: Robotech

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP writes:
>    First, regarding music, I've heard that Minmei sings a more
> varied repetoire in the original Japanese version.  This raises
> the question of who wrote the music in the North American version.
> I understand that the theme music was Harmony Gold's addition, as
> is some (most? all?) of the incidental music.  Who wrote the music
> for Minmei's songs?

The music in Robotech is different than the one for Macross, et al.
The incidental music in the MACROSS Videotape called BoobyTrap
(released by Harmony Gold BEFORE they decided on changing Macross,
Southern Corss, and Genesis Climber into RObotech) has the Original
Incidental Music.

>  Are they completely new for North America or are they just
> translations?

Yes, she does sing more sings and they are better than the American
ones.  (With all due respect to Reba West who does a Fantastic job!)
They are completely new as far as I know.  BTW, in the Japanese
Macross, Minmei sings MY BOYFRIEND IS A PILOT, something she
mentions in Robotech but never sings.

>    I've been finding more Robotech paraphenalia lately.  I just
> picked up "ROBOTECH The Role-Playing Game" by Kevin Siembieda.
> It's published by Palladium Books.  ISBN 0-916211-21-5.

Yes, I have it too.  It is excellent!  No more suffering through
FASA's BATTLETECH trash!

Everyone, Please Write Harmony Gold and Carl MAcek and tell them to
release the Robotech Movie.  Then write to your local stations (that
show Robotech) and tell them to buy the Sentinals!!  If no stations
near you show Robotech then COMPLAIN!!!!!

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 03:14:26 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Japanese and other Animation on Video

>      I saw the film originally as Nassica at the local C/FO
> meeting and had the great fortune of seeing/hearing it with a
> stereo system and we were able to get a distribution amp and five
> headphones and the front row listened in FULL stereo!  WOW!

Strangely enough, if you get Nausicaa on laser disc, it's in MONO!!!
The video is fantastic, but the sound is only good mono.

>      I then purchased the tape at my local B. Dalton store
> (Warehouse also had it, but I get a discount at B. Dalton) because
> I wanted a very good copy of the visulas and the soundtrack
> (maybe).  I wasn't displeased.  It

Was the tape in stereo?  And did you buy Nausicaa or Warriors of the
Wind?

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 03:10:08 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: MACROSS Movie

From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
> A while back there was a mention of a MACROSS movie entitled
> _DO_YOU_ REMEMBER_LOVE_.  Frequenting my local Japantown video
> store I have rented said movie (in Japanese, of course) and the
> Nihon folks that own the store says the title translates to
> _REMEMBER_MY_LOVE_ (or "Remember, My Love" [note comma]).  Anyway,
> in Hi-Fi stereo the sound is terrific

Another translation I've seen is "Love: Do You Remember?".

This is one of my favorite animated films.  I agree with you that it
should not be compared to Robotech.  The Macross Movie is high class
animation and filmmaking.  Robotech is dreck.

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 04:16:12 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Robotech

>  Are they completely new for North America or are they just
> translations?

They are completely new songs.  Harmony Gold had problems with the
Musicians Union.  It seems that you can't import musical scores for
a new TV show from another country without pissing off the union.
They insist that American musicians/music writers write and perform
the music (I don't know under which conditions this becomes true,
but Harmony Gold thought that they were in a position where they had
to redo all of the music.).

> Yes, she does sing more sings and they are better than the
> American ones.  (With all due respect to Reba West who does a
> Fantastic job!)

I thought Reba West's "singing" was awful.

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 87 12:38:13 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Mell <CCU1440%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Blakes Seven toys.

Corgi produced a model of the ship in Blakes Seven (the one with the
large green bulbous end). These were made available shortly after
the U.S.S.  Enterprise and Klingon Interceptor models were produced.
It was also made in the much smaller 'matchbox' scale. This would
have been about 10 years ago so availability would be a problem now
I guess.

------------------------------

Date: 10 February 1987 08:24:11 CST
From: U09862   at UICVM    (Carlo N. Samson            )
Subject: Death of "Blake's 7"

    I just saw the last episode of "Blake's 7" this weekend. Its
really too bad that it was canceled--it was a very good show, just
as good as "Doctor Who", in my opinion. So why *did* the Beeb axe
"Blake's 7" in the first place, if not because of low ratings?
    About the episode it self: I found it hard to believe that
everyone could have been so easily gunned down by the Federation
troopers, especially since the Feds didn't seem to be such good
shots in the previous episodes. I would have expected Soolin or
Dayna to last a little longer, but even they were downed with a
single shot. And I didn't think Avon would actually believe that
Blake had gone over to the Federation; I was surprised when he shot
Blake without giving him a chance to explain. But the last scene was
quite memorable: Avon, surrounded by troopers, raises his gun and,
with a final smile, pulls the trigger.

I guess I'll just wait till Channel 11 reruns the series.

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

P.S. They should have used Slave more often, too. His groveling
subservience made an excellent counterpoint to ORAC's superiority
complex. They could've had more scenes like the one where Slave
tries to interrupt ORAC to warn of the impending attack.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 19:17:19 GMT
From: ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Tod Kuykendall)
Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7"

From: U09862@UICVM        (Carlo N. Samson)
>     I just saw the last episode of "Blake's 7" this weekend. Its
> really too bad that it was canceled--it was a very good show, just
> as good as "Doctor Who", in my opinion. So why *did* the Beeb axe
> "Blake's 7" in the first place, if not because of low ratings?

   The original reasons are soomewhat unknown (at least to everyone
I've talked to, but there was A LOT of pressure to bring the show
back.  Hence the final episode in which everyone dies...or do they?
Blake obviously did, but more on that later.

>     About the episode it self: I found it hard to believe that
> everyone could have been so easily gunned down by the Federation
> troopers, especially since the Feds didn't seem to be such good
> shots in the previous episodes. I would have expected Soolin or
> Dayna to last a little longer, but even they were downed with a
> single shot. And I didn't think Avon would actually believe that
> Blake had gone over to the Federation; I was surprised when he
> shot Blake without giving him a chance to explain. But the last
> scene was quite memorable

     In actuallity there was a book published later (actually I
think there were several, but one AUTHORIZED book) about the after
events of that episode.  Apparently the federation troops had orders
(guess from who) to take them (esp. Avon) alive and they were only
stunned, not killed.  This goes for them all except Blake who agreed
only to do the show if there was NO possibility to bring his
character back, hence the blood and several large holes in his
midsection.  The other thing about it that he liked was the
suggestion that Blake might have been a traitor (as Avon obviously
thought) and that you really didn't know when it was all over....

> Avon, surrounded by troopers, raises his gun and, with a final
> smile, pulls the trigger.

   One thing to say:  "Breathless"

I can find out the name of the book if you want me to, but I'm not
even sure if you can find it this side of the sink. (Except maybe
import/novelty bookstores....)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 17:30:00 GMT
From: leadsv!berg@rutgers.edu (Gail Berg)
Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7"

ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Tod Kuykendall) writes:
>      In actuallity there was a book published later (actually I
> think there were several, but one AUTHORIZED book) about the after
> events of that episode.
>
> I can find out the name of the book if you want me to, but I'm not
> even sure if you can find it this side of the sink. (Except maybe
> import/novelty bookstores....)

I picked up a copy of this book at a Dr. Who Con last year (Timecon
'86 in San Jose, CA).  So you might want to pick up a copy at the
next Con.  I understand there will be a Blake's 7 Con in Chicago (?)
around the end of July 1987.

Interesting story... If you want some spoilers, let me know and
maybe I'll post a summary.

Gail Berg
P.O. Box 390010
Mountain View, CA 94039

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 01:16:25 GMT
From: victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles)
Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7"

berg@leadsv.UUCP (Gail Berg) writes:
>ee173wav@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Tod Kuykendall) writes:
>>      In actuallity there was a book published later (actually I
>> think there were several, but one AUTHORIZED book) about the
>> after events of that episode.
>>
>> I can find out the name of the book if you want me to, but I'm
>> not even sure if you can find it this side of the sink. (Except
>> maybe import/novelty bookstores....)

The name of the book is "Afterlife," by Tony Harwood.  Not a great
book, but he did do a good program(e) guide.

>I picked up a copy of this book at a Dr. Who Con last year (Timecon
>'86 in San Jose, CA).  So you might want to pick up a copy at the
>next Con.  I understand there will be a Blake's 7 Con in Chicago
>(?)  around the end of July 1987.

Blake's 7 convention to be held July 31, August 1-2.

>Interesting story... If you want some spoilers, let me know and
>maybe I'll post a summary.

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 00:08:24 GMT
From: ihlpa!pkb@rutgers.edu (Benson)
Subject: Re: Death of "Blake's 7"

I would very much like any or all information on Blake's 7. My
husband and I got involved watching it during last summer. We both
wished we had seen it from the beginning. Is this the end of the
whole series or is there a chance it might continue or even possible
be run again? If the answers to these questions have already been
posted, please forgive me. I havent been able to read the 'news'
lately.  Thanks for any information.

Pam Benson
ihlpa!pkb

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 25 Feb 1987 06:41:00-PST
From: devi%mailer.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: STARMAN

Does anyone know of the status of the tv show STARMAN?  Last week it
was preempted by AMERIKA, and this week some other show is in its
normal Fri.  night time slot.

Has it been cancelled?  Seems strange since the last show showed
previews of the coming show.

I think this is a really good show.  It's attempting to show how
human beings look when seen through the eyes of an alien.  And
sometimes what we take for granted can seem pretty cruel, senseless,
and "inhuman".

Anyone know where I can write/call for more information about the
status of the show?

Thanks in advance.

Gita Devi

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 87 1016-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #54
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Brust (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 07:48:49 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Teckla

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>But I have been hearing comments of the form the "Vlad series" this
>and the "Vlad series" that. I quibble with the use of "series"
>here.

Since the three books published are named after three of the houses
of the Cycle, people on the net are assuming (with at least the
tacit consent of the author (Hi Steve!)) that there are destined to
be 17 books.  I agree there isn't a real basis for assuming they
will all feature Vlad -- except for the fact that it's 3 for 3 so
far (it'll be 4 for 4 when Easterner is published; on the other
hand, that starts to look like evidence for MORE than 17 books....)

The publication order was Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla; that was also the
order they were written in.  The chronological order is Yendi,
Jhereg, Teckla.  Easterner falls before Yendi chronologically; it's
based to some extent on material that was written before Jhereg.  Is
this sufficiently tangled?

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet: ...viper!ddb
Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 1987  13:40 EST (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Teckla

   The problem I'm still having with Teckla, though, is one that
most people seem to be ignoring.  I just find it very hard to
believe that knowing that the Teckla will have their turn ruling the
Empire (the great Cycle remember?), that 1) they would be willing to
risk screwing it up (since, it seems to me anyway, that attempting
to break the cycle would be so much against their natures, that it
would be virtually impossible), and 2) that the Lords of the other
houses would be so cruel to the Teckla knowing that they would end
up in charge after a while.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 17:11:13 GMT
From: roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi)
Subject: Re: Teckla

Jhereg and Yendi were good stories.  I liked Yendi better because it
was paced faster and kept me riveted to my seat.  However....

Teckla is one long domestic squabble.  Ho hum.  If I wanted to
experience dreck like that, I'd live at home with my parents.
Nothing much happens except Cawti acts like a teenager and Vlad acts
like a jerk (*I* know how to solve my problems, I'll *kill*
everybody).

For you folks that thought that Cawti's change was reasonable, and
that the revolution was realistic, I'd like to suggest that you are
judging her actions with ideals that were born from a romantic (and
not too accurate) remembrance of the 60's.  It's one thing to
protest in the US, and quite another to protest in a country that
has an Emperess and does not have the guarantees of personal liberty
that we have.  People SHOOT at you when you revolt.  What happened
to the protest movement in the US after Kent State?

Also, why is it that (possibly) non-earth human folks have to have
the same morality as us?  On a world where reincarnation is KNOWN to
occur, and normal death need not be permanent, is murder the same
crime it is here?  From the first two books, I'd say no.

Vlad is obviously a good guy.  He also commits murder.  That
conflict of reality in our world with Vlad's is what made those
books interesting for me.  Then Teckla came out and Vlad became a
weenie.  End of interest.

Another thing.  What is the big deal about Vlad having been Aleira's
brother?  Remember, reincarnation happens.  In ONE of his lives,
Vlad was the brother to Aliera in ONE of her lifetimes.  Big
whoopie.  What about their countless other lives?

Didn't anyone else feel that the ghost that appears to stop Vlad
from killing all the revolutionaries in the house was a little bit
too much deus-ex-machina-ish?  It seemed like a pretty cheap plot
device to me.  I don't remember any ghosts mentioned before (except,
of course, at Deathsgate Falls).  But the last time I looked they
hadn't moved that into town yet.

Roy J. Mongiovi
Systems Analyst
Office of Computing Services
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta GA  30332
(404) 894-4660
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 09:30:03 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Teckla

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
>   The problem I'm still having with Teckla, though, is one that
>most people seem to be ignoring.  I just find it very hard to
>believe that knowing that the Teckla will have their turn ruling
>the Empire (the great Cycle remember?),

Actually, a Great Cycle is another thing entirely...

>that 1) they would be willing to risk screwing it up (since, it
>seems to me anyway, that attempting to break the cycle would be so
>much against their natures, that it would be virtually impossible),

It IS virtually impossible.  That is why so few Teckla were involved
in the revolt.  Remember that most of the people who were revolting
were Easterners and that the cycle doesn't apply to them.

>and 2) that the Lords of the other houses would be so cruel to the
>Teckla knowing that they would end up in charge after a while.

A cycle lasts a long time.  Most Dragearans don't live through more
than a part of one.  Also, people just don't think of the
consequences of their actions that way.  How many countries on Earth
worry about what will happen to them if they loose power?  And, yet
history shows that it happens more often than not.

David Messer
Lynx Data Systems
UUCP:  ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 09:57:53 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Teckla

roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi) writes:
>Teckla is one long domestic squabble.  Ho hum.  If I wanted to
>experience dreck like that, I'd live at home with my parents.
>Nothing much happens except Cawti acts like a teenager and Vlad
>acts like a jerk (*I* know how to solve my problems, I'll *kill*
>everybody).

It is true enough that Teckla was not as pleasant a story as the
earlier books, but I think the conflicts that the characters went
through made it a very good story.  Vlad finds out that for once,
killing everybody wouldn't solve his problems.  If you had read the
book, you would have noticed that Vlad thinks about killing
everybody, but never does.

>For you folks that thought that Cawti's change was reasonable, and
>that the revolution was realistic, I'd like to suggest that you are
>judging her actions with ideals that were born from a romantic (and
>not too accurate) remembrance of the 60's.  It's one thing to
>protest in the US, and quite another to protest in a country that
>has an Emperess and does not have the guarantees of personal
>liberty that we have.  People SHOOT at you when you revolt.  What
>happened to the protest movement in the US after Kent State?

As I remember, it intensified.  What gives you the idea that people
don't have guarantees of personal liberty on Dragaera?  It seems to
me that freedom is almost absolute there unless you break one of the
unwritten laws like fighting between houses.  Nobody bugged the
revolutionaries until they started bugging the Empire.

As for the realism of the revolt: remember that these people,
by-and-large, were neophytes at the revolutionary game.  They didn't
have a world were revolutions are common and one may study them for
effectiveness.  I think SKZB did a pretty good job of portraying
bunch of enthusiastic, but somewhat naive socal-reformers.

>Also, why is it that (possibly) non-earth human folks have to have
>the same morality as us?  On a world where reincarnation is KNOWN
>to occur, and normal death need not be permanent, is murder the
>same crime it is here?  From the first two books, I'd say no.

Why shouldn't they have the same morality?  And it is clear that
murder is a somewhat lesser crime there.  Given reincarnation, life
becomes cheaper -- both in terms of the frequency of murders and the
severity of the punishment.

>Vlad is obviously a good guy.

It isn't so obvious to me.  It is true that one is sympathetic
towards him, but he doesn't wear a white hat.

>Another thing.  What is the big deal about Vlad having been
>Aleira's brother?

Did you read this thing?  That is explored in great depth.  Vlad
felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they treated
Easterners.  Then, to his shock, he found out that he used to be one
himself.  Sorta like a southern bigot who finds out that he has a
Black grandparent.

David Messer
Lynx Data Systems
UUCP: ihnp4!quest!viper!dave
      ihnp4!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 87 05:32:19 GMT
From: roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi)
Subject: Re: Teckla

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
> Vlad finds out that for once, killing everybody wouldn't solve his
> problems.

Oh, on the contrary, there's one point where killing everyone
*would* solve his problems.  But unfortunately, a ghost appears to
talk him out of it :-)

> What gives you the idea that people don't have guarantees of
> personal liberty on Dragaera?  It seems to me that freedom is
> almost absolute there unless you break one of the unwritten laws
> like fighting between houses.  Nobody bugged the revolutionaries
> until they started bugging the Empire.

Ah, right.  Did we read the same books?  These are slaves in a
feudal system.  The bone-crushing reality of simply having to
support their lives and pay their owners taxes must surely prevent
the idealistic nonsense Cawti was spouting.  In the environment
described for the planet (Dragaera?), I don't see how they could
possibly act like 1960/70's protestors.  It isn't until technology
allows you the leasure time necessary to have non-violent protest
that you find that sort of person.  In feudal times you can only
expect bloody revolution.  I don't see any evidence that
magic/sorcery is replacing technology enough to allow the Teckla to
act as they did in the novel.

> As for the realism of the revolt:  remember that these people,
> by-and-large, were neophytes at the revolutionary game.  They
> didn't have a world were revolutions are common and one may
> study them for effectiveness.

Right.  And when Earth was in a corresponding place in its history,
it didn't have the sort of protestors described in Teckla.  The
folks in Tecka had a lot of theory about how to boss the
establishment.  Where did it come from?

> Did you read this thing?  That is explored in great depth.  Vlad
> felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they
> treated Easterners.  Then, to his shock, he found out that he used
> to be one himself.  Sorta like a southern bigot who finds out that
> he has a Black grandparent.

Yeah.  I've read Jhereg/Yendi twice, and Teckla once.  How about
you?  I understand the emphasis SKZB puts on Vlad's/Aliera's
relationship.  I'm questioning the logic of the author's treatment
of that relationship.  Perhaps it isn't fair to question that sort
of thing (suspension of disbelief and all that), but I like
stories that are logically consistant.  I am a programmer, after all
:-) It seems to me that in a society where reincarnation is a proven
concrete RECALLABLE fact, family doesn't mean what it does to us.
The concept of a father is the grownup who took care of you when you
were little the most recent time.  Likewise with siblings.  What
makes one lifetime (out of who knows how many) special?  Is it
sensible that such concepts would exist to such a people?

Roy J. Mongiovi
Systems Analyst
Office of Computing Services
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta GA  30332
(404) 894-4660
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 87 08:24:10 PST (Tuesday)
From: SWigdor.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Teckla and Timeliness

All the discussion on Teckla triggers a thought on relative time.
In the stories the Dragaerans are stated to have a life span of
1000-1500 years and the humans only 75-100 (never clearly stated but
implied).  This says that Dragaerans have a longer life span over
humans by an order of 15 magnitudes.  This compares approximately
with the relationship between man and mice.  When humans plan for
the long term we are talking 10-15 years (of course try planning on
your job for longer that 5 years if you don't 15 is long), but with
Dragaerans we are talking 150-200 years.  So why shouldn't all the
other Jhereg crime lords ignore Vlad since in a relative short
period of time (to them) he will be an old man and an easy mark.

The bottom line is why should two races with such different
perceptions of time and the afterlife, interact on so human a level.
This is not to say however that I didn't enjoy the books, because I
did.  It is alway interesting to watch an author and his/her story
mature.

Sheldon Wigdor
SWigdor.es@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 87 03:28:29 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla

dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>>Another thing.  What is the big deal about Vlad having been
>>Aleira's brother?
>Did you read this thing?  That is explored in great depth.  Vlad
>felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they treated
>Easterners.  Then, to his shock, he found out that he used to be
>one himself.  Sort of like a southern bigot who finds out that he
>has a Black grandparent.

Not exactly.  Quoted from my copy of JHEREG, chapter 10, without
permission:

``And that meant -- what?  That the thing that had driven me into
the Jhereg -- my hatred of Dragaerans -- was in fact a fraud.  That
my contempt for Dragaerans wasn't a feeling of superiority for my
system of values over theirs, but was in fact a feeling of
inadequacy going back, how long?  Two hundred and fifty thousand
years?''

He wasn't being hypocritical; he was a Jhereg as Dolivar, he is a
Jhereg as Vlad.  He just didn't realize what was driving him.

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 05:35:21 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Teckla and Timelines

SWigdor.es@Xerox.COM writes:
>All the discussion on Teckla triggers a thought on relative time.
>In the stories the Dragaerans are stated to have a life span of
>1000-1500 years and the humans only 75-100 (never clearly stated
>but implied).

It *was* stated somewhere; you're off by a factor of two.  3000 is
the average Dragaeran lifetime.

>talking 150-200 years.  So why shouldn't all the other Jhereg crime
>lords ignore Vlad since in a relative short period of time (to
>them) he will be an old man and an easy mark.

Because, conversely, Vlad will move faster than they will.  What if
he decides he wants to be on the Jhereg Council?  I'd give him 10
years to do it; a Dragaeran would plan for 100 or so years.
Dragaerans aren't used to people who move fast, because of the
difference in relative rate of life.

>The bottom line is why should two races with such different
>perceptions of time and the afterlife, interact on so human a
>level.  This is not to

As suggested in JHEREG, it probably happens because of the influence
of the Jenoine early on.

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 87 1041-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 20:47:49 GMT
From: mtgzz!eme@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes:
> With regard to those who comment on putting 'fantasy' under
> 'science fiction'

I'm surprised that no one mentioned this or has heard of it, but one
of the meanings of SF that I've heard of is 'science fantasy'.  I
could never figure out if this was meant to be an abbreviation for
'science fiction and fantasy' or if it was meant as another sub-genre.

Beth Eades
ihnp4!mtgzz!eme

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 87 13:01 EDT
From: DANDOM@UMass.BITNET
Subject: Semantics of 'Sci-Fi'

    Re: Popular usage os the term 'Sci-Fi': I don't use it, and I
prefer the term 'SF' for the simple reason that 'SF' implies
'Speculative Fiction' as well as 'Science Fiction'.  Maybe it also
implies 'Superlative Fantasy' or 'Serendipitous Flagellation', but
you get the idea.  'Scientifiction', from the pulps had a nice sound
to it.  The best, bar none, term I have ever heard is the Italian
term, 'Fantascienza' which implies the whole gamut, in addition to
being an aesthetically pleasing word that rolls off the tongue with
great ease and pleasure.

    The whole controversy is pretty absurd when you think about it;
however, SF fandom encourages disputes whenever possible.  The
nonsense about 'Trekker' and 'Trekkie' is ironic, in that it points
out the inherent fanticism involved.  These 'Trek-Heads' are so
obsessed with a TV show that they argue endlessly over what they
should be called.  In doing so, the public's perception of SF Fandom
is fueled once again.  We come across as Anal-Retentive Fanatics.

    This trend is also manifested in the vocabulary of fandom by
such distinctions as 'Media' and 'Literary' fans.  The 'Literary'
fans, doubtless wishing to secure 'Dorsai''s place on the library
shelf right next to Chaucer and Faulkner tend to draw acute
distinctions between themselves and the so-called 'Media' fans.  As
we all know, writing is not a 'medium', only Television and Movies.
The 'Media' fans don't call themselves anything, and instead spend
countless hours wondering why NESFA refuses to pander to their
tastes at Boskones and writing 800 page fanzines devoted to Judson
Scott fan-fiction.

    The above is intended only in the spirit of sarcasm.  It does
remain however, that fans are notorious for making mountains out of
molehills.  Perhaps it is the sign that we are all existentialists.
We have found great meaning in essentially meaningless things.  We
could write volumes on the fine distinction between 'Literary SF'
and 'Media Sci-Fi'.

    The rest of us?  We'll just keep reading and enjoying and seeing
an occasional film that strikes our fancy.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 87 15:47:11 EST
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: RE: sf vs. sci-fi

Another two cents' worth from beautiful FT Bragg, North Carolina's
playground.
     I think the term "Mundanes" (RE: msg from Wahl) probably came
from membership overlap with the Society for Creative Anachronism.
At DeepSouthCon '78 (hmm, yes, I do need to get around a bit
more...) the SCA contingent was very much in evidence.  Likewise,
the SCA'juns at the U of Alabama (the Shire of Misty Mere, to the
Knowne World) seemed to read a lot of science fiction and fantasy.
Granted, this is a lot of soup from two small oysters-- anyone out
there with corroboration/contradiction ?
     By the way, saying that you are "into SF" around here tends to
get you marked as a military groupie/Rambo fan due to the high
concentration of Special Forces types.  It's easier to say either
"sci-fi" or the whole word-- it saves explanations.  (OK, so I'm
exaggerating.  The POSSIBILITY of the misunderstanding is there !)
     I've been enjoying the BB, and look forward to the next
posting.  Good Stuff !

Regards,

Dave Wegener

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 19:12:39 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

eme@mtgzz.UUCP writes:
>I'm surprised that no one mentioned this or has heard of it, but
>one of the meanings of SF that I've heard of is 'science fantasy'.
>I could never figure out if this was meant to be an abrev. for
>'science fiction and fantasy' or if it was meant as another
>sub-genre.

Well, to the best of my recollection someone suggested the label
science fantasy for work that is basically science fiction but
includes certain fantastic elements. For example, Dr. Fezziwig
invents a time machine, goes back to ancient Greece, and discovers
that the Greek Gods did in fact exist. I think the science fantasy
label goes back to the early or mid `60s, and was proposed by an SF
writer in an article in one of the SF magazines.

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 06:13:12 GMT
From: sunybcs!nobody@rutgers.edu (Unprivileged User)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

SF is a term that is warped around by each individual who uses it to
signify his or her favorite out of dozens of possible meanings, all
subject to interpretation, etc.

     Some that I have heard are:
Science Fiction
Science Fantasy
ScientiFantasy
Speculative Fiction

The last one just about includes everything you might want it to,
even (gasp) that "modern literary giant," Steven King.

   Some people like to create millions of sub-genres. Some, like
Clarke, sneer from their high thrones that ANYTHING that has even an
ELEMENT of fantasy,such as a book where they go faster than light,
is not WORTHY to be classified as science fiction at all, but must
be relegated to the lowly position of fantasy.
     Personally, I like to think of all that junk that they call
"hard core" SF -- the stuff written primarily by dudes like Clarke,
Asimov, etc. who would rather lecture about orbital mechanics and
the physical mechanisms of going to Jupiter than write real stories,
as "Sci-Fi." Sci-Fi also includes most SF movies, including the
dreadful Star Trek IV.
     SF, on the other hand, I prefer to use only for works of some
literary and artistic merit. Things with good story line, plot,
theme, characterizations, etc., and also some degree of social
relevance. You can include many fantasy books in this, if you like.
I don't care. I like fantasy as much as science fiction, but it is
usually clearer if you just refer to fantasy as fantasy.
     Unfortunately, I don't have a good word for that crud that
people like Piers Anthony churn out.

     Hope this has helped some.
     Want a really good book? Read RADIX, by A.A.Attanasio.

     Have a good one, all....

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 18:54:18 GMT
From: jhardest@Wheeler-EMH
Subject: SF vs SCI-FI

   Well, it looks like the battle lines are drawn.  The people who
say `SF' and those who say `sci-fi' have set their their army
(figuratively) so it is time for the mellow fans (I being the
president) to make a statement.
   When I talk about this sub-class of literature, I call it science
fiction or even science faction.  I say this because I am not lazy
about my speech or writing.

John Hardesty
BBN Communications Corporation
Hawaii
jhardest@ wheeler-emh.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 18:05:24 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

eme@mtgzz.UUCP writes:
>I'm surprised that no one mentioned this or has heard of it, but
>one of the meanings of SF that I've heard of is 'science fantasy'.
>I could never figure out if this was meant to be an abrev. for
>'science fiction and fantasy' or if it was meant as another
>sub-genre.

Science fantasy, as I understand it, is a sub-genre of science
fiction, but there's no underlying scientific basis for the...
err... special effects.

Henry Kuttner is widely reknowned as the past master of science
fantasy; space opera also falls in this category (i.e., Jack
Williamson, "Star Wars").

I'd also include stories written as if some sort of high-technology
was making magic appear to work, such as almost anything by Jack
Chalker.

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 87 00:23:55 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI'

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>So why not cll it fantasy and be done with it?

Because it's not!  Sure, the line dividing science fiction and
fantasy is not very clear, and never CAN be, given the nature of the
genres.  But the different names point out the differences in the
explorations involved.

Science fiction, in my definition, is a fiction which is involved
with the physical laws that govern our universe.  In its more
advanced state, sf explores the reactions of people, whether human
or not, to changes in understandings of those laws.  It can explore
possibilities in the realm of what our culture currently calls
`Science' in a fictional aspect (rather than in report form), and it
can also deal with more `traditional' stories in relation to those
possibilities.

`Fantasy' deals in the same manner with the corresponding laws of
other universes; since we have as yet no proof that other universes
even exist, let alone the possibility that they are governed by laws
that are substantially different from ours, fantasy is far more
abstract than sf.  This genre also deals with possibilities that MAY
apply to our own universe, but that are so far removed from our
current knowledge that they may as WELL be found in another
universe.

The two fictions, as FICTIONS, can be equally enjoyable.  But as
presentations of ideas, possibilities, extensions of our current
knowledge of the universe, the two are very different.  Fantasy has
the larger range, but also the greater possibility for error.  And
for someone who was raised to believe in the scientific method, that
can be a very important difference indeed.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 11:24:26 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus 'SCI-FI')

For the record, I do feel that there is a difference between science
fiction and fantasy, but not a very clear one. Most things lie in a
gray area, and often the only reliable definition is the functional
one: it is what it's sold as. (I know that's not reliable, nor even
very sensible. But it's about the most consistent one I can think
of, if we're going to insist on a not-too-fuzzy "definition"...)

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>>So why not cll it fantasy and be done with it?
>Because it's not! [ ... ]
>
>Science fiction, in my definition, is a fiction which is involved
>with the physical laws that govern our universe.  In its more
>advanced state, sf explores the reactions of people, whether human
>or not, to changes in understandings of those laws.  It can explore
>possibilities in the realm of what our culture currently calls
>`Science' in a fictional aspect (rather than in report form), and
>it can also deal with more `traditional' stories in relation to
>those possibilities.

Becky, you seem to think of science fiction mostly as what is often
called "hard sf". As in Sagan's pi-meter, now beaten to death [I
hope].  But much science fiction is not about science or technology
at all, although the science functions as a *necessary* *backdrop*
for the story. For example, consider LeGuin's "The Word for World is
Forest", and Leinster's "Martian Odyssey". These stories are about
alien (== strange, mysterious) ways of thinking; but they use the
metaphor of aliens (== from space) to say their piece.

Well, as I finished that paragraph I thought, "But you could argue
that these stories are (also) about *aliens* (== from space), not
just about new ways of thinking." But what does it mean to be "about
aliens?" We have never met any. We are completely ignorant of the
truly alien (by definition, I suppose). I think much of science
fiction is a rehearsal of what we will do when we meet them, much as
children play house and rehearse adult roles. But it is very hard to
write a story "about aliens", because in the end all fiction is
about *us*, human lives and concerns, whatever it uses as a
metaphor, be it BEMs or bunny rabbits.

>`Fantasy' deals in the same manner with the corresponding laws of
>other universes; since we have as yet no proof that other universes
>even exist, let alone the possibility that they are governed by
>laws that are substantially different from ours,

This is fascinating. I read what you said here and was all set to
jump in with, "But by that definition, Dhalgren is fantasy." And
then I thought about it a little, and decided that yes, it is.

Does what you are saying here mean that fantasy is just science
fiction with different physical laws? That's a twist; I've seen
people argue that science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy (cf.
Laura above), but the other way around is rare.

>fantasy is far more abstract than sf.  This genre also deals with
>possibilities that MAY apply to our own universe, but that are so
>far removed from our current knowledge that they may as WELL be
>found in another universe.

But this, then, definitely includes such things as faster-than-light
travel and communication, terraforming, genetic engineering on a
grand scale, and many other staples of "science fiction". Also
psychic powers, a staple of much fantasy (which I personally believe
in about as much as I believe in warp drive, but I'm quite willing
to have others disagree).

>The two fictions, as FICTIONS, can be equally enjoyable.  But as
>presentations of ideas, possibilities, extensions of our current
>knowledge of the universe, the two are very different.  Fantasy has
>the larger range, but also the greater possibility for error.  And
>for someone who was raised to believe in the scientific method,
>that can be a very important difference indeed.

When you say that "fantasy has the greater possibility for error",
you seem to mean, again, in contrast to "hard sf", the stories
written by physicists who include afterwords with references to the
relevant scientific journals. But what is "Star Wars", then?
Scientifically, I believe it less than Hambly's "Darwath" series.

I have seen science fiction described (I don't think I want to say
"defined") as a genre of writing in which the writer gets to make
one outrageous assumption or set of assumptions (FTL travel, genetic
engineering) and then must be reasonable for the rest of the story,
so that things follow from the ground the wild assumption laid. If I
understand you correctly, you are saying that the main difference
between science fiction and fantasy is that in fantasy, that
assumption can be more outrageous than it can in science fiction.
That's a fascinating idea.

I think part of the problem with trying to find some sort of line
between fantasy and science fiction is that which category we
perceive something as being in depends, not so much on its subject
matter (spaceships vs. dragons) but on the way it is presented, and
"the way it is presented" is terribly difficult to quantify. (I
never did like English classes where you dissected a story into
little bits...) Is it just a historical fluke that spaceships are
correlated strongly with what is felt to be "science fiction"?

I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that
do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For
instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and
suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to
me.  The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science
fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships?

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 87 0806-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #56
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cherryh & Eddings & Sagan &
                        Townsend (2 msgs) & Zimmer (3 msgs) &
                        Recommendations (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 17:32:31 GMT
From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Dune and Big Books (really Cherryh)

chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes:
> What I liked about the book [Dune] was the power politics.
> [followed by a bunch of recommendations for other books for other
> reasons]

I noticed you didn't mention C.J. Cherryh, *the* master of power
politics.  Almost all of her books have this as a major or minor
theme; some good ones are the Chanur series, Angel With the Sword,
Downbelow Station (winner Hugo or was it Nebula?), Cuckoo's Egg, and
Serpent's Reach.

Cherryh is tied with Zelazny for having the most books on my shelf.

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 07:38:15 GMT
From: ur-tut!agoe@rutgers.edu (Karl Cialli)
Subject: Re: David Eddings and _The Malleorean_

> This is, by the way, the first in a five book series, so Eddings
> will be taking us well into the 1990's before this is done.

D. Eddings happened to be at a local bookstore a last year were a
friend of mine got me an autographed copy of _Pawn of Prophecy_ and
the answers to a few questions.

Mr. Eddings was there with a representitive from his publishing
company so there was very little he could say.  As for the upcoming
books, _The Malleorean_ is another set of five like _The Belgariad_
and then there will be a final two books that will go back in depth
on the prologue of _The Belgariad_ - all the gods, Torak, the Orb
and such.  He said he wanted the whole thing to be a twelve book
epic (I forgot the word for this).

He couldn't tell very much in the way of Errand and other characters
besides *his* pronunciation of their names and what he had in mind
for their personalities.

Karl Cialli
MCI International Inc.   Dept. 430/875
1 International Drive    Rye Brook, NY 10573
UUCP:   {allegra, cmcl2, decvax, harvard, seismo}!rochester!agoe
ARPA:   agoe@rochester.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 23:49:56 GMT
From: desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Contact

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>(As for the technical argument, can we all just agree that he
>should have used the gravitational constant or Planck's constant
>instead of a purely mathematical number for a marginal increase in
>plausibility, and then drop this subject?)

   I hate to keep dragging this up, but I do have a penchant for
accuracy.  It would be impossible even in theory to encode
information in G or hbar, because there are no "natural units" in
which to measure these constants and decipher the messages.  In
fact, theoretical physicists frequently choose systems of units in
which both of these constants have value exactly 1.  It is hard to
encode much information in the expansion of 1.
   He could perhaps have used some true dimensionless constant such
as the fine structure constant.  If the fine structure constant *is*
in fact an arbitrary constant and not fixed by the geometry of the
universe, then it might indeed be possible to choose it to include
some specific information.  But in practice it would be impossible
to extract that information; the only way to get at it would be to
measure it empirically, and it seems impossible to imagine an
experiment that could measure any physical parameter with an
accuracy of more than twenty digits or so.

   The fundamental problem is that mathematical constants can be
computed to high precision by algorithms but, by that very fact,
there can be no information embedded in them.  Dimensionless
parameters (not G or hbar but perhaps the fine structure constant)
could conceivably have information embedded but cannot be measured
accurately enough to extract that information.  Basically, Sagan's
whole notion is bogus.

   Since this is sf-lovers, I might as well say something about the
rest of the book.  The science (i.e., the artifact they build and
what it does) is all completely bogus.  But, since it is necessary
for the plot, it is not unreasonable to suspend disbelief
(particularly since it is hardly fair to expect Sagan to give a
technically accurate explanation of how it works).  A bigger problem
is that the aliens are also completely bogus; Sagan's ethnocentrism
shows through in a big way here.  (There are billions and billions
of alien races out there, but they are all exactly like us!)
   The plus is that the human characters are indeed competently
drawn (which I admit was a surprise -- I expected this to be the
weakest part of Sagan's writing, and it turned out to be the
strongest), although certainly not brilliant.  If this is enough for
you, then great.  I would give the book about [***], not because it
is great but because there is so much worse trash out there.

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 87 20:28:17 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Ian_Nottage <PSU1181%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: "Adrian Mole"

   I agree.  I have never heard of a radio show around the AM story,
and I dispute that one exists.

   I believe that Sue Townsend wrote the book as a book, and that it
was only adapted for the small screen as an afterthought (with a
theme tune by Ian Dury, my all-time hero).

   Also, what does "to flame" mean?  I have noticed it quite a bit
 on the board, but have still to arrive at an answer.

Cheers,

Ian.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 87 17:47:45 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: P.Sharples <CEU3011%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Cc: DREW <DREW%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>,
Cc:         DERRICK <DERRICK%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Adrian Mole - a clarification

cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) wrote:
>>    The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole is, co-incidentally, like The
>>Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy a TV series of the book of the
>>radio series.
>
>When I was in Australia I read a newspaper article praising THE
>SECRET DIARY OF ADRIAN MOLE, AGE 13 3/4 and its sequels, and went
>out and bought the book.  Neither book nor article mentioned a
>pre-existing radio show.

    Strictly speaking "The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole" first
appeared in written form (serialised in a woman's magazine, I
think).  However, it first broke into popularity when extracts from
the "Diary" were read aloud on BBC Radio 4.  The popularity of this
series, (used really as a filler between programmes), led to the
books being published, (and selling in huge quantities), and the
adaption into a TV series.

Pete
P.Sharples%uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber1@ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 18:10:00 GMT
From: convex!cowles@rutgers.edu
Subject: Zimmer - Chondos

Does anyone have any information on when (or whether) the final
volume of Paul Zimmer's 'King Chondos' series will appear. Five
years is a long time to wait.

John Cowles

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 01:41:17 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Zimmer - Chondos

cowles@convex.UUCP writes:
>Does anyone have any information on when (or whether) the final
>volume of Paul Zimmer's 'King Chondos' series will appear. Five
>years is a long time to wait.

Don't we know it! The basic problem is that the books were
originally published by Playboy Press, which went out of business.
They sold their rights to Berkeley (I believe), which reissued the
two that had come out but was not interested in publishing the rest.
(I have volume 1 in a Playboy edition, and volume 2 in the other.
The formats are the same, just the little logo at the top is
different.)

About two years ago, Locus reported that Zimmer had sold another
book in the series; not the third in the trilogy, however, but a
prequel to the ones already out. It was just a little "publishing
note"; it gave no details. (It probably said who he sold it to, but
I don't remember.) I have heard nothing more about that.

I met Paul Edwin Zimmer at the Darkover Grand Council about a year
and a half ago (he's MZB's brother), and asked him what was
happening. He said that the prequel story was going to come out, but
was very vague.  I said, "But you left us on such a cliffhanger! We
want to know what HAPPENS!" to which he unhelpfully responded "It's
Istvan! You know what happens!" or words to that effect. This was
not a real conversation; I realized halfway through an elevator ride
that he was standing next to me. So I did not have time to really
talk with him.

I doubt we will ever see anything. It just seems to have fallen
through. But there's always that chance...!

Shoshanna Green

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 08:11:43 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Zimmer - Chondos

I hope he does get the rest published also.  Not great stuff, but
interesting in a dark, intense sort of way.  I would think it would
be right up DAW's alley, but they probably feel that without rights
to the first two volumes they would be getting the short end of the
stick...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 00:19:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Thanks for All the Books

   I have so far received a lot of recommendations about SF books to
read.  I appreciate your help,and your time,and have started reading
the most commonly recommended books.  I have just finished another
book by Hogan(No one had recommended that one so far).  It is a WWII
history rewrite story, and I gave it a grade of C-(detail comment
somewhere else).  That taught me another lesson.  And to those who
have not read it yet, I do not recommend it(again no flame).
   Also I commented in this news group about Hogan's style being not
very subtle, and readers can easily guess the outcome in the end.
So far I have received lots of challanges about that comment, and
urged to read the "Inheret the Star" trilogy.  I here formally
accept the challenge.  I will again read 1/2 - 2/3 through and try
to guess the answers.  I personally don't believe that will be a
problem.  I have been reading Agatha Christie, and Ellery Queen for
the last 5 years, and I am getting better and better at guessing the
plots(note I don't mean I can get them 1/2 way through).  So no big
sweat.  Following some of your suggestions, I am also reading
Ringworld.  I think that is an excellent book although the tempo is
kind of slow at least at the beginning.  I have also finished
another one of Niven's book "Footfall".  I don't think that one is
any good(Again no one has recommended that book to me so far.)  So I
think start from know on, I am only going to read the books you
folks have recommended.  Thanks again.

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 17:40:00 GMT
From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: DUNE -vs- Golden Torc series

From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington.ARPA>
>>Particularly, if anybody knows of something they consider better
>>than Dune, I'd be VERY anxious to hear about it.
>
>I also thouroughly enjoyed the first three books

I enjoyed the first book immensely, and would gladly recommend it to
anyone.  However, the other two books of the first set I could not
recommend, unless the reader had realy enjoyed the first one.

I tried to read the second set, but couldn't seem to get past the
beginning of the first book.  Strange.....

>    Now to your question: Different but one of those big novels
>that I really liked, try The Mists of Avalon.  The Chronicles of
>Amber, but don't buy the Merlin stories until the third one comes
>out.  I just finished the second and am (angrily) left in the
>middle of an adventure waiting for the finish.  The Spellsinger
>stories.  The Golden Torc series.  The Dragon books, except maybe
>the last two.  All of good ol' SKZB.

I've never read The_Mists_of_Avalon, so I can't comment on it.  I
have read the Chronicles_of_Amber, and I agree that you shouldn't
buy the Merlin books until all three are out.  However, although I
enjoyed the Golden Torc series, I don't think I can really recommend
them, they have parts in all the books that drag on
forevvveeeerrrrrrr.  :-)

>    Re-reading this list I suddenly realise my taste seems to have
>changed.  For many years I've been a fan of "hard science" fiction
>and these are all in "that other" category.  So, go to Foundation,
>Ringworld (not necessarily all of them, someone else will no doubt
>have suggestions about this), and others of the type I'll hereby
>dub "semi-classics, at least".

I would only recommend the first two or three books in the
Foundation series, as I found the style of writing extremely grating
after the second book.  Ringworld, I highly recommend.

As to taste changes, I still get mildly incensed over how much of the
'Science Fiction' shelf space is take up with what I regard as pure
'Fantasy', most of which I find suitable for insulating a root cellar.
However, I recognize that there are people, some of whom are my
friends, who enjoy reading it.  And there are some fantasy books
that I really enjoy too.  Sooo, I remain calm.  :-)

Enjoy!
Edwin Wiles
seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 07:25:50 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

Hurm.  I've got one vote for and one against.

I liked Dune.  Yes, the characterizations were lousy, the plot
fairly standard, and I really didn't give a flying hoot about how
wonderfully strange the ecology was -- which isn't to say that it
was good or bad, I just didn't really care about it.  What I liked
about the book was the power politics.  There's a lot of going on in
the book, and at least half of it (and what it reveals about the
society the politics is set in) isn't obvious.  So if you like that
sort of thing you'll like Dune.  If not, oh, well.

On to Heinlein.  To be honest, I don't why anyone would recommend
Heinlein as an introduction to science-fiction for mature readers.
He tends to have at best, mediocre characterizations and also to
paint his universes in broad shades of black and white (whereupon he
then takes said paint brush and proceeds to cram it down the throat
of the reader in a very unsubtle manner).

Some recommendations of the top of my head:

Hard-SF: The Mote in Gods Eye -- Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle
         Adequate characterizations.  A great "first-contact" story.
         Plus you get the flavor of the old-style British governing
         and military system.

Pure Fantasy: The Riddle-Master of Hed -- Patricia K. McKillip
         First part of one of my favorite fantasy trilogies.
         Gorgeously smooth writing that creates an *atmosphere* of
         fantasy.  Plus a wonderfully detailed plot.

Soft-SF:  The Demolished Man -- Alfred Bester
         A classic featuring telepathy, future society, and murder.
         Read this one.

Where do I put this?:  Lord of Light -- Roger Zelazny
         Warning: there's a major flashback that confuses people
         until they realize they're reading a flashback.  Needs no
         further hype.

All-around fun: The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat
         -- Harry Harrison
         Just try the first 3 pages and see what you think.

Hope you like at least one of these.  There's a lot more where these
came from.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 87 0826-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #57
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:

                Films - Redubbing Movies (2 msgs) &
                        Adaptations & Gor & 
                        Stranger From Venus &
                        Doc Savage (4 msgs) & 
                        Jessica Harper &
                        Star Wars (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1987 08:09 PST
From: PAAAAA7@CALSTATE.BITNET
Subject: Redubbing movies for a different effect

Can anyone help me with this one:

About 5 years ago there was a made-for television movie about a
sabotaged nuclear reactor. Someone had "programmed" a large winch to
open the reactor door (for service, naturally) while the reactor was
still running. Lots of smoke and lights, little plot in a pseudo
high-tech setting.

But here's my question. I could swear that the stock footage from
this same movie was re-dubbed after Three Mile Island. This time the
focus was to prevent a "China Syndrome". All the sabotage plotline
was removed. Does anyone remember this? Can you think of any more
films "doctored" for the public?

Rich McGee

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 02:10:24 GMT
From: utterback@husc4.harvard.edu (Brian Utterback)
Subject: Re: Redubbing movies for a different effect

Well, I've only seen this movie once, when it was first shown, so I
don't know about any redubbing, but the movie in question is "RED
ALERT" and starred William Devane.  I think it's more than 5 years
old though.  I rather enjoyed this movie.  I can't imagine how they
would remove the sabotage part, since it was the crux of the movie.

Basically, what happened was the reactor plant owners discover a
plot to sabotage the reactor. They don't know who, how, why, or
when. Devane is the head of security (I think). He manages to slowly
discover the details.  A disgruntled, crazy employee is planning to
blow the reactor up.  He has been smuggling small bombs into the
plant inside his lunch thermos. Each day he plants one more.  When
Devane finds out, they get the employee to tell them where bombs
are. So, good guys shut the plant down, get the bombs, bring the
reactor back on line.  End of story, right. Except the employee
lied, there are a couple more bombs. Devane figures this out. Down
goes the reactor, get the bombs, back up comes the reactor.  Little
do we know, but the employee also ripped out some safeguards.  With
all the down time, the reactor is way off schedule, in fact, when
they bring it up, it is scheduled to come down for maintenance.  The
computer controlled winch that is supposed to open the reactor
vessel doesn't realize that the reactor is running.  It starts to
move for the vessel, and Devane sees it move, runs to stop it. It
won't stop.  He climbs up onto the massive hook on the winch and
bodily prevents it from engaging. The thing weighs a ton (literally)
so it takes all his strength to stop it.  He yells to the others to
shut the reactor down, but they argue about it! Eventually they
bring it down, the plant is saved.

The book version also has some "Big, Bad, Big Business" stuff in it
too.  Please remember, this is all from ( my rather poor) memory.

Brian Utterback

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 18:24:16 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Movie adaptations in general (was Re: The Stainless Steel
Subject: Rat)

fish@ihlpa.UUCP (Bob Fishell) writes:
> The only decent adaptation of a classic SF story that I've seen
> done well in recent years was John Carpenter's "The Thing," which
> unlike it's 1950's predecessor, was pretty faithful to John W.
> Campbell's "Who Goes There?," the story from which both films were
> adapted.

The BBC adaptations of THE INVISIBLE MAN and THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS
were faithful adaptations (though, I suppose, not strictly movies).
There was a Swedish/Irish co-production called variously TERROR OF
FRANKENSTEIN and VICTOR FRANKENSTEIN which was also faithful, but
dull.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 14:22:01 GMT
From: houxa!acd@rutgers.edu (A.DURSTON)
Subject: Re: Oh My God! GOR Movies

From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA>
> where enough is filmed at one time to make two movies (like
> Richard Chamberlain's Quartermain flicks).  Anyway, the titles are
> _GOR_ and

   This is probably the wrong place for this...

   Are the two Chamberlain flicks really two movies or just one that
was released [ as 'King Solomon's Mines' ] bombed, given a new ad
campaign and title [ 'Alan Quatermain, etc...' ] and rereleased?
Did anyone bother seeing either or both?

ACDurston
ihnp4!{houxa,hotld,hotlg}!acd

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 22:46:40 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: STRANGER FROM VENUS

                        STRANGER FROM VENUS
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     One of those films I had been curious to see for a long time
showed up at a local video store.  The film is STRANGER FROM VENUS,
a British film made in 1954 with a number of strong similarities to
the previous year's DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, right down to
starring Patricia Neal.  Helmut Dantine plays the nameless stranger
who walks into an inn and is shortly revealed to be from the planet
Venus.  (You may remember Dantine as a young refugee trying to win
at roulette so that he can bribe his way out of CASABLANCA.)  He
reads minds, he has healing powers, and he has a mission to save his
planet and ours.

     STRANGER FROM VENUS is slow, it is stagey, it is visually
somewhat dull with only one scene that has any special effects, and
other than that the only visual novelty comes from the alien
wardrobe: pants with stripes down the side.  By today's standards
this film offers little but the opportunity to say you have seen a
rare science fiction film from the '50s.  But making allowances for
its age, it might be worth seeing.  I'd give it a 0 on the -4 to +4
scale.  For buffs only.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 87 21:00:31 GMT
From: Ian Phillips <IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk>
Subject: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze

Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage -
Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an
advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the
sequel.

In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there
are?  The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure there's
more.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 12:20:29 GMT
From: mimsy!chris@rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze

IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk (Ian Phillips) writes:
>Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage
>- Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an
>advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the
>sequel.

Given what I have heard of the original film, I doubt it.  (Captions
in fight scenes?  Whose fault were those?!)

>In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there
>are?  The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure there's
>more.

18x for x \elem 3, 5, 7, I think.  I cannot remember just what x is
supposed to be, and I lost my copy of Farmer's _Apocalyptic_Life_
long ago.  I am not sure if Farmer knew of Dent's unpublished
_In_Hell,_ _Madonna_; if not, that would make it 4, 6, or 8.
Incidentally, Bantam reordered them for the reprinting begun in the
60s, and has apparently stayed with the new ordering since then.
The copyright dates jump around dramatically (as does the quality).

Trying to collect them all, with around 80 so far,

Chris Torek
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690)
UUCP:   seismo!mimsy!chris
ARPA/CSNet:     chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 87 06:54:48 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze

>Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage
>- Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an
>advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the
>sequel.

hah.  Considering the performance Ron Ely put in the first time,
he's lucky to get dog food commercials.  Commercial flop, deservedly
so.

>In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there
>are?  The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure there's
>more.

186, if I remember right.  Last I looked, about 110 titles were
published, although many of those were in multiple-story omnibuses,
so I don't know the total number of volumes that is offhand.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 Feb 1987 22:37:42-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Doc Savage - Man of Bronze

From: Ian Phillips <IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk>
> Does anyone out there know if the sequel to the film of Doc Savage
> - Man of Bronze was ever filmed? I remember the first film had an
> advert at the end of it, but I never heard anything about the
> sequel.

No, it never was. The first film was a box-office (and critical)
bomb, so plans for a second film were dropped.

> In addition, does anyone know just how many Doc Savage books there
> are?  The latest one I've got is 80-something, but I'm sure
> there's more.

Bantam keeps changing the format. Starting with #97/98, they were
published 2-to-a-book. This went on until #125/126. The series went
into hiatus at that point and started up again as 4-to-a-book under
the title DOC SAVAGE OMNIBUS #1 (there has since been a second one).
So, there's been 134 of the DS novels reprinted. They've still got a
ways to go, though, since the total series count is 182 (181
original pulp novels, plus one that Lester Dent had sold to Street
and Smith, but had never appeared until Bantam published it as #96,
THE RED SPIDER).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 15:10:58 GMT
From: ostroff@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jack H. Ostroff)
Subject: Jessica Harper - what else has she done?

 While renting a copy of Altered States this weekend (comments on
this another time) I wanted a second flick - so I grabbed one of
their "specials" (half price rental) called Shock Treatment.  The
story sort of centers around Brad and Janet Majors several years
after that other movie.  It was no surprise that they were not
played by the original actors, but I got a real shock when I saw
Janet.  I hadn't recognized the name in the credits (Jessica Harper)
but I instantly remember her from Phantom of the Paradise, which I
haven't seen in almost ten years.  Does anyone know if she has been
in anything else?

(please reply by mail to me - I'll summarize if anyone asks)

Thanks.
Jack
OSTROFF@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
rutgers!topaz!ostroff

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 16:43:04 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Star Wars (TV)

I watched Star Wars Network premiere on 2-14-87.  I was pleasantly
surprised.  Knowing the traditional hacking job that is usually done
to movies brought to TV, I wanted to watch and see how much was cut.
Since I have seen the movie over twenty times in the cinema and
countless time on tape and cable (was it on cable? or am I just
thinking of when I rented the tape), I felt sure I would see all the
cuts.  Well I didn't.  I notice a sentence missing in a few places
and some scenes seemed slightly shorter (Yeah! let's hear it for
them "S"s), but not the hack and slash traditional for TV networks.

One thing that was discomforting was the commercials.  The movie
would build to a point and then COMMERCIAL!!!!  Oh well, not much
can be done about that.  So I pick up "Beowulf" and read it untill
the commercial ended and that way I didn't have "Coke" jingles
clowding my thoughts as "Star Wars" continued.

All in all, a pretty good two and a half hours spent curled up with
a good book (I mean movie) on a Saturday night.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 23:54:09 GMT
From: spr@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: Star Wars (TV)

jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) writes:

>I watched Star Wars Network premiere on 2-14-87.  I was pleasantly
>surprised.  Knowing the traditional hacking job that is usually
>done to movies brought to TV, I wanted to watch and see how much
>was cut.  Since I have seen the movie over twenty times in the
>cinema and countless time on tape and cable (was it on cable? or am
>I just thinking of when I rented the tape), I felt sure I would see
>all the cuts.  Well I didn't.  I notice a sentence missing in a few
>places and some scenes seemed slightly shorter (Yeah! let's hear it
>for them "S"s), but not the hack and slash traditional for TV
>networks.

This makes me think of a few other items of differences.

The post-Empire release of Star Wars had a few obvious additions:
Darth pulling out of the spin, and the Episode number and subtitle.
However, there were a few subtle deletions as well.  These are
mostly small lines, such as a few lines from the Death Star briefing
and attack.  The most interesting part is that in both versions,
Luke says "Carrie!" when he returns from the Death Star battle.

Early releases of the video tape were just the post-Empire release,
though some later tape releases have a few deleted lines returned.

>One thing that was discomforting was the commercials.  The movie
>would build to a point and then COMMERCIAL!!!!  Oh well, not much
>can be done about that.  So I pick up "Beowulf" and read it untill
>the commercial ended and that way I didn't have "Coke" jingles
>clowding my thoughts as "Star Wars" continued.

I didn't watch it this time, but did they have those silly
interviews with people about their memories and anecdotes about Star
Wars like they did when it was first shown on network TV.

BTW, Jedi hits HBO on March 1st, remeber when George said we'd never
see any of them on cable or video.  How things change in ten years!

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  spr@miro.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ucbvax!miro!spr
USnail:  2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 03:12:16 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Star Wars (TV)

spr@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Sean Rouse) writes:

>The post-Empire release of Star Wars had a few obvious additions:
>Darth pulling out of the spin, and the Episode number and subtitle.
>However, there

Come again?  I remember the first time I watched it; both because it
was the first SF movie that was better than grade B (but not by
much, admitted) and because it was the first movie I ever went to
see without parental supervision.

There was very definitely a flash to the TIE fighter that Darth
Vader was flying, the picture was spinning, then suddenly steadied,
then they went back to the action.  I distinctly remember thinking,
"Aha!  Opening for a sequel!"

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 87 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #58
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 87  08:55 EST
From: SAINT@YALEADS
Subject: Heinlein

>     Many of you had suggested Heinlein's work.  As some of you
>have suggested I have just finished reading The Puppet Master.  I
>don't think it is well written.  It is of typical 50's cold war
>mentality.

   I would not judge Heinlein by The Puppet Masters or Farnhams
Freehold or any of his VERY early works, before his style matured.
If you want to read him at his peak, I suggest "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress" or "Stranger in a Strange Land".

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 18:41:23 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Heinlein

SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET says:
>   I would not judge Heinlein by The Puppet Masters or Farnhams
>Freehold or any of his VERY early works, before his style matured.
>If you want to read him at his peak, I suggest "The Moon is a Harsh
>Mistress" or "Stranger in a Strange Land".

   I feel that Heinlein's early short stories (Blowups Happen,
Lifeline, etc.) are worthwhile reading, as is the novel "The Door
Into Summer." As far as recent works, I *definitely* recommend
"Friday."  It's at least as good as (if not better than) anything in
the "peak" of his career.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 14:47:28 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: The Computer will never replace the brain (help needed)

Shoshanna...

  I tried to figure out "what to keep" and "what to trim" from your
article for this followup and found that I couldn't delete any of
it, so I deleted it all and hope that folks still have your original
available.  Well written article!  That said, ...

  The Loonies certainly couldn't have succeeded without Mike -
Mannie says so towards the end, in fact - but for me, Mike was a
real person by the end of the book, and I *felt* for him just as for
a human.  There was some discussion of Mike's self-awareness and
needs (I can't remember whether Mannie was discussing it with Prof.
de La Paz or if he was wool-gathering on the subject) and the
supposition was that once the *inductive* reasoning reached a
certain point, interaction with a human triggered the self-awareness
and personhood, much as a baby develops by interacting with other
humans.  So Heinlein's tenet is that it takes non-deductive
"thinking" ability and sympathetic human contact to make the leap to
"consciousness".  Mike is often referred to as an adolescent; he has
trouble sensing fiction from fact; he grows during the revolution,
learning responsibility as he goes.

  "Are they [Heinlein's computers] human?"  Minerva became human,
but was she still a computer?  I don't think so.  She became one of
his super-smart female humans.  The importance of Minerva after her
change lies in her personality, which is still basically the same as
it was, enhanced (so to speak!) by her sex-drive.  Minerva as a
computer wasn't sexual, so far as I remember, though Athene
certainly is.  We could branch off into a discussion of Heinlein's
attitudes on family and sex, but I'll hold off on that for now.

  Much of the power of Heinlein's computers is developed by self-
programming (ref: Mike's expansion), and I think that's how/why he
duck's the issue of their feelings toward their
inventers/programmers.  By the time Dora and Minerva arrive, it's
unclear that programmers even exist.  Mike programs Junior to run
the catapult, so even back then we have no human programmer.  We can
postulate that the inventor or programmer is more or less the
"biological" parent and the human providing the awakening contact is
the "true" parent, but Heinlein himself doesn't speculate on it in
his writing, unfortunately.

  Heinlein's foci seem to me to be:

    - Down with Mrs. Grundy, sex is a good thing
    - Be a rugged individualist ("Rational Anarchy")
    - Tell a story
    - Defend your family
    - Strong personalities will make technology a "good thing"
    - Human chauvinism
    - Male chauvinism mixed, bizzarly, with a type of feminism
    - "The Peepul" are churlish masses

His early stories dealt more with the impact of technology on
humanity ("Blow-ups Happen", "Lifeline"); his later ones don't.  As
a result, the intelligent computers in his later stories *are* more
gosh-wow than vehicles for socio-scientific speculation.

2010 deals with the computer's interaction with its inventor/
programmer.  Morris's "Kerrion Empire" trilogy deals with the
bonding of human ("user"? "partner".) and computer/spaceship.  Was
anything said of this in "Colossus, the Forbin Project"?

Still mulling things over,

Kris Stephens
(408-746-6047)
Amdahl Corporation
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 20:31:39 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET says:
>   I would not judge Heinlein by The Puppet Masters or Farnhams
>Freehold or any of his VERY early works, before his style matured.
>If you want to read him at his peak, I suggest "The Moon is a Harsh
>Mistress" or "Stranger in a Strange Land".

MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>   I feel that Heinlein's early short stories (Blowups Happen,
>Lifeline, etc.) are worthwhile reading, as is the novel "The Door
>Into Summer." As far as recent works, I *definitely* recommend
>"Friday."  It's at least as good as (if not better than) anything
>in the "peak" of his career.

I second the motion on "The Door Into SUmmer" and "The Moon is a
Harsh Mistress".  "Stranger in a Strange Land" is a bit too
off-the-wall for an introduction.

I quite disagree with the suggestion of "Friday", unless the reader
is familiar with RAH's consistent failure to do a good job in
developing female characters... and can put up with it.  This is a
major failing with most of his books.  I don't let it bother me, but
those who are not expecting it might be permanently turned off to
RAH.

I also enjoyed "Waldo" and "Magic, Inc."

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 87 06:36:59 GMT
From: amdahl!chuck@rutgers.edu (Charles Simmons)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

"Waldo", "Magic, Inc", and "The Door into Summer" are probably the
best works Heinlein has written.  "Stranger in a Strange Land" is
not off-the- wall if you grew up in California while EST was
peaking.  "Stranger" is classic Heinlein, and in that book you will
find most, if not all of the ideas that Heinlein uses in many of his
other works from about the same time period. ("Stranger" is also
less off-the-wall than some of Sturgeon's novels, or Spinrad's
novels.  Being off-the-wall can often be a good thing in Science
Fiction.)

However, after reading these four books and maybe one or two others,
a person should stop reading Heinlein.  The problem is that nearly
every Heinlein book contains a certain character over and over
again.  This problem is most evident in "Number of the Beast" where
the character appears four times.  That is, all of the protragonists
in "Number of the Beast" have the same personality.  While "Friday"
is better than "Number of the Beast" it does not contain anything
that did not appear in earlier works.

Chuck

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 01:51:24 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

chuck@amdahl.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes:
>"Stranger in a Strange Land" is not off-the- wall if you grew up in
>California while EST was peaking.  "Stranger" is classic Heinlein,
>and in that book you will find most, if not all of the ideas that
>Heinlein uses in many of his other works from about the same time
>period. ("Stranger" is also less off-the-wall than some of
>Sturgeon's novels, or Spinrad's novels.  Being off-the-wall can
>often be a good thing in Science Fiction.)

Oh yes!  Being off-the-wall can be quite a good thing!  But the
original context of the conversation, and the one I was responding
to, was about material to introduce others to SF.  There is a danger
that unusual (ahem) material can permanantly warp a newcomer's view
of the field.  Would you hand a copy of Spinrad's "The Iron Dream"
to your mother-in-law?  (Assuming that you both have a m-i-l and
like her) I would gladly hand mine "Waldo".

>However, after reading these four books and maybe one or two
>others, a person should stop reading Heinlein.  The problem is that
>nearly every Heinlein book contains a certain character over and
>over again.  This problem is most evident in "Number of the Beast"
>where the character appears four times.  That is, all of the
>protragonists in "Number of the Beast" have the same personality.
>While "Friday" is better than "Number of the Beast" it does not
>contain anything that did not appear in earlier works.

Sadly, I must agree.  And if you don't like "Friday" and "Number of
the Beast", you better not tackle "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls".
You encounter the same tired old characters once again.  Some of
them make guest appearances as themselves, and some are retreads of
the single character that RAH can do.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 14:13:08 GMT
From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

chuck@amdahl.UUCP (Charles Simmons) writes:
>However, after reading these four books and maybe one or two
>others, a person should stop reading Heinlein.  The problem is that
>nearly every Heinlein book contains a certain character over and
>over again.

I have to agree, I find Heinlein's characters and his plots very
repetitious.  Free love is nice, but I got the idea the first time.
In general, I have to have gaps between his books in order to enjoy
them. Hmmm, maybe it's time to actually pick up another.

Anne

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 87 00:45:00 GMT
From: ccvaxa!wombat@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein

For the guy who didn't want to introduce his mother-in-law to SF
with Spinrad:

I know a guy who was going to introduce a little old lady in his
bridge club to SF. He first tried a good ole nuts and bolts story
(I've forgotten which one) on her. She read it, said it was ok, but
she wanted something with more romance. So he handed her a copy of
*Time Enough for Love*, and she loved it.

Wombat
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 17:36:15 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Heinlein's Books

A few days ago someone was talking about Heinlein's earlier and
later works and made the statement that FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD was one
of the earlier works, recommending instead THE MOON IS A HARSH
MISTRESS or STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND as later, better books.

Sorry to disappoint anyone, but if memory serves at all, then SIASL
was the earliest, TMIAHM next and FF last of all!  See, you can't
really date Heinlein's works by fads of political theory.

Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute worst;
a liberal friend liked it best, saying that the old man had finally
given up on being able to change anything, finally sliding into the
slime with other "realist" authors.  Precisely the reason I did not
care for it.

BTW, JOB should have come out in the middle 50s, when it would have
been a shocker.  As it is, JOB is merely a humorous bit of fluff
that fundamentalists probably laugh off; back when I used to be one
of those people, we argued most of RAH's humorous points away, in
the 50s.  They are not up to date at all.

On the other hand, STRANGER... was written about 1960 or so; maybe
JOB is one he did do back then and just waited to release a few
years back?

Arlan Andrews

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 13:00:48 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: teleportation booths

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>schumann@puff.WISC.EDU (Christopher Schumann) writes:
>>What about the Stargate?  Instant teleportation to another gate
>>(selected somehow) on a huge network of gates. (Tuned, I think)
>>The book was _Stargate_ written by some author I forget.
>Yup.  Andre Norton, I believe.  Heinlein also wrote one like this,
>but I forget the name.

 The Heinlein book was Starman Jones, it's not really a bad book if
you haven't read Have Spacesuit Will Travel as they both seemed to
use the same character with a different name and what seemed to be a
completely different relativity theory!

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 01:11:08 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Farnham's Freehold

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>He said, along with many others, that Farnham had not issued a
>generally favorable judgment on nuclear war.  In fact, he quite
>clearly had, and as the discussion turned out, Heinlein meant for
>him to be doing so in order to attack the idea that nuclear war
>could be beneficial.

This is *not* the way I interpret the passage in question.  Farnham
in fact makes a qualified, "it might not be completely bad" sort of
statement -- and Heinlein goes on to show that even *that* is wrong.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 18:03:26 GMT
From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

A Andrews (arlan@inuxm.UUCP) writes:
>Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute
>worst;

Really?  I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious
novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept
getting WORSE).  Maybe you never read that one.

Hobie Orris
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4|decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 87 20:20:43 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes:
>Really?  I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious
>novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept
>getting WORSE).  Maybe you never read that one.

I agree.  BTW, the book did NOT get better, but even worse.
However, I think Friday is not the worst, but one of the best books
RAH has written.  The character is pretty consistent, and the
technology and surroundings are believable.  Contrast that to
Farnham's Freehold and The Number of the Beast, where RAH went to
wit's end in imagination.

(Note: Yes, I've read other things by RAH.  Many, many other
things.)

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 01:51:12 GMT
From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes:
>>[...]  I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious
>>novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept
>>getting WORSE).  [...]
>
>I agree.  BTW, the book did NOT get better, but even worse.  [...]

You know what the worst part was, was that portions of TNotB were
serialized in Omni magazine (anybody remember THAT?  Held up for a
while as a decent place for SF and science, but oh, how it's fallen)
and that those portions actually led me to believe that TNotB was
going to be another one of those fine adventure type novels like
_Glory Road_, albeit with more science in it.  So I grabbed the
trade paperback when it came out... oh, the disappointment.
(Especially considering that I hadn't read much other Heinlein at
the time, making the end chapter(s) fairly opaque...)

G. T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU
gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 87 0901-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #59
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Teleportation (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 04:12:55 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

rhr@osupyr.UUCP (Robert Robinson) writes:
>I've never heard of that book either, but the word "jaunting"
>reminded me of a rather bad British import series called "The
>Tomorrow People". As I remember, these people were supposed to be
>the next step in human evolution and endowed with the abilities of
>teleportation,telekinesis, and telepathy.  They were limited in the
>fact that they could not knowingly hurt anyone (supposedly a
>genetic limitation or something).

I thought of this as well.

``Supposedly a genetic limitation or something''???  Since I'm close
enough to having the talent in that amount, I'll clarify it: it has
been called ``tele-empathy''.  Feeling others' emotions at a
distance.  VERY effective in keeping someone from hurting another
knowingly; and much more likely than telepathy.  (It also would be
closely linked to telepathy.)

[N.B.  I didn't say I have it.  But I can easily imagine what kind
of hell life would be for me if I had what empathy I do have in a
stronger amount.]

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 87 06:56:00 GMT
From: rlgvax!jesse@rutgers.edu (Jesse Barber)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes:
> There's always the good old "grab a chunk of space, yank, step
> across" method where you either open a hole in spacetime and go
> through or fold space up ("A Wrinkle in Time").

This may be the same, but in "MACROSCOPE" (maybe Piers Anthony, but
I'm not sure), space was already folded. Just wrap a planet around
you, increase the local gravity until the matter of the planet (and
you) collapsed and you popped (teleported) to somewhere else.

Also, in "Stardropper", mental power alone could teleport you to a
place where the gravity potenial was the equivalent to the place you
are. Sorry, I don't remember the author on this one either.

Jesse @ C.C.I. Reston, Va.
seismo!rlgvax!jesse

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 21:23:41 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>twomey@gort.UUCP (Bill Twomey) writes:
>>I'm not sure how Niven's scheme works, and this may be it, I have
>>certainly seen it used in some other stories, but this is food for
>>thought.
>>Teleportation involves recording the position of every
>>atom/molecule in the teleportee's body, and then transmitting this
>>info to the destination where the reciever gloms together assorted
>>atoms according to the re- cording.

Think about this for a minute.  I thought about Niven's
teleportation (and teleportation in general) and came up with the
following fact:

Teleportation MUST be bidirectional.

What do you suppose whould happen if you put all of someone's
molecules into a chamber that was already filled with air?  If you
can't visualize this, think of something along the lines of a huge
explosion.  Nasty result.  Only half of the problem of teleportation
is getting the stuff there.  You gotta get rid of what's already
there, too.  A pretty good essay on the subject is contained in
George O. Smith's _Venus_Equilateral_ (the last section of the book
-- titled something lik "The Greater Triangle.")

This, by the way, brings up another point.  Niven says that his
booths comply with the law of conservation of energy.  If you have a
two-way transportation, you really won't gain or loose much, so his
booths wouldn't get as hot as you might expect.  Differences in
density would have to come out as heat, though.

>Niven assumes (quite sensibly) that the teleported object *itself*
>is transported, not a schematic of the object.

All of my above argument assumes that the actual matter is moved,
not just a signal sent.

>(If a representation can be made, and a copy generated from that
>representation, then what's to stop me from "beaming" a copy of me
>to several receivers, generating me several times?  It can get
>ugly,...)

_The_Commplete_Venus_Equilateral_ has a detailed discussion on this
(in a pretty amusing story form -- recommended, if out-of-date).
Think of what would happen if you recreated 10 $100 bills.  Every
one of them would be real, even though they contain the same serial
number.  Bet THAT would crash the economy!

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 23:37:37 GMT
From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

One more note on teleportation. This comes from the Soul Rider
series by Jack Chalker. He has a system where teleportation is done
by supercomputers analyzing the atomic structure of the object to be
teleported and then reproducing it at the other end out of a primal
energy field called "flux".  This works as expected with non-living
objects and anamals: the computer analyzes a cow (or a t-bone steak)
and then it can produce one anytime it wants and everyone eats. But
it doesn't work quite that way with humans.  If the computer makes a
copy of a human without destroying the original, the copy comes into
being comatose and soon dies. Same thing happens if the copy is made
more than an hour after the original dies or two copies are made.
The computers conclude that there exists a "soul" which will bind
with only one body at a time and "goes away" after an hour without a
body.

Thus, where is no longer a problem of "well, I must have died when I
was teleported" or of making two copies of a person. Also, medicine
is easy: if someone is injured, kill him! Then the computer makes a
new healthy copy and he's cured! (If you do it quick enough :-)

Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of destroying the economy
when someone makes 10 duplicates of a $10 bill (and because there is
a super- computer in the loop, they can even get different serial
numbers!)

Ted Marshall
Britton Lee, Inc.
p-mail:     14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030
voice:      (408)378-7000
uucp:       ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted
ARPA:       mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 87 12:20 EDT
From: SJONES@UMass.BITNET
Subject: RE: Teleportation...

    Another method of 'teleportation' was pointed out to me by Bill
Twomey (twomey@sunybcs) in a letter concerning jaunting. Anne
McCaffrey's Pern series involves dragons which can transport
themselves and anything about their person thru "Between" to another
location, provided the dragon has a visualization of the
destination. Dragons have little long-term memory (its rider,
certain people, its weyr, other dragons), so the rider or another
dragon must usually provide the visual memory.
    An added twist to this is that the dragons of Pern, bred up in
size from small native 'fire lizards,' are also able to transport
their riders thru time as well as or instead of space. The price of
this is a great psychic and physical drain on the rider, although
the dragons only feel strain on exceptionally long jumps (ex.
Lessa's 400 year jump).

    Of course, it could be that the dragons are merely implementing
one of the previously mentioned means of translocation internally. I
don't recall reading any discussions of how they manage the feat,
but perhaps there was an interview somewhere. It seemed to be
treated rather 'mystically.' If I've trampled on any of the details,
I expect some one will help out as I read the books quite some time
ago. I would like to hear if anyone else thought that _Moreta_ was
the best Pern book or not.

Steve Jones
BITNET:  sjones@umass
CSNET:   sjones%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP:    ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!sjones
INTERNET:sjones%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
USSnail: box 753; Hampshire College; Amherst, MA  01002

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 08:04:48 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Methods of teleportation (Madeline L'Engle)

carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes:
>>> As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>>> methods that have been used in SF stories.
> There's always the good old "grab a chunk of space, yank, step
> across" method where you either open a hole in spacetime and go
> through or fold space up ("A Wrinkle in Time").

I would argue that A Wrinkle in Time is fantasy rather than SF.  If
you want to include fantasy, there are an awful lot that just punt
and use unexplained mental power to teleport.

An excellent book, A Wrinkle in Time; recommended to all.  A good
intro to fantasy books for a mundane.  (What's this?  A fantasy book
that's a good story as well?  Heresy (:-)!!  We need more heresy
like that.)

USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
     think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 87 08:41:27 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
> In NECROMANCER by Gordon R. Dickson, members of the Chantry Guild
> use ``no-time'', which is based on exactly determining the
> velocity of the person or object to be teleported, which (by the
> Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) then makes that person/object's
> position indeterminate, and thereby allows any destination to be
> chosen.

Reminds me of one which is effectively teleportation, though that's
not quite how it's presented....Larry Niven again, a story called
One Face.  Paraphrasing the expository interlude....A Jumper creates
an "overspace" such that the speed of light becomes infinite in the
neighborhood of the ship.  Someone at this point says "Almost
infinite".  No; "The speed of light goes all the way to infinity.
Our speed is kept finite by the braking spine, which projects out of
the effective neighborhood.  Otherwise we'd go simultaneous: we'd be
everywhere at once along a great circle of the universe."

If that's not teleportation, I don't know what is.

USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
     think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 20:30:52 GMT
From: schumann@puff.WISC.EDU (Christopher Schumann)
Subject: Re: teleportation booths

What about the Stargate?  Instant teleportation to another gate
(selected somehow) on a huge network of gates. (Tuned, I think)

The book was _Stargate_ written by some author I forget.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 14:47:37 GMT
From: kevin@ux.cs.man.ac.uk (Kevin Jones)
Subject: Re: Jaunting.

From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
>       The method of transportation used by the Tomorrow People
> (British SF tv-series mentioned during last year's SF on TV
> debate) was referred to as "Jaunting".  I cannot remember how the
> process was initiated, but I remember the transportation effect
> was a transparent giant hand would wrap itself around the
> transported person, who would then vanish.  Does anyone else have
> any further details?  I do not remember the "Jaunting" being
> mentioned in the discussion at all.

I remember some of the details of this process - it actually
metamorphosized as the show progressed.

The process of Jaunting involved (relatively) instantaneous
translation through a ``hyperspace'' (They occasionally got stuck
there!). The process was instigated mentally, but they needed
computer aided navigation! This was provided by the mechanism of
Jaunting belts with the assistance of their sentient computer TIM.

Without navigational aid a jaunting tomorrow person could end up
reappearing in unpleasant locations (in the middle of a large
mountain) - not recommended. This was one of the reasons why an
initial ``breaking out'' (i.e. manifesting these abilities) was
dangerous unless assisted.

Most of this is masked by it being a number of years since watching
the programs, but I've read some of the books more recently so it
might be reasonably accurate 8^].

Kevin Jones
JANET: kevin@uk.ac.man.cs.ux
UUCP:  mcvax!ukc!man.cs.ux!kevin
ARPA:  kevin%uk.ac.man.cs.ux@cs.ucl.ac.uk
PHONE: (+44) 61 273 7121 Ext 5699

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 01:31:12 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes:
>One more note on teleportation. This comes from the Soul Rider
>series by Jack Chalker. He has a system where teleportation is done
>by supercomputers analyzing the atomic structure of the object to
>be teleported and then reproducing it at the other end out of a
>primal energy field called "flux".

Yes, I remember this too.  Nice series of books, but Chalker does
tend to get carried away on some topics (like sex).

>This works as expected with non-living objects and animals: the
>computer analyzes a cow (or a t-bone steak) and then it can produce
>one anytime it wants and everyone eats. But it doesn't work quite
>that way with humans.  If the computer makes a copy of a human
>without destroying the original, the copy comes into being comatose
>and soon dies. Same thing happens if the copy is made more than an
>hour after the original dies or two copies are made.  The computers
>conclude that there exists a "soul" which will bind with only one
>body at a time and "goes away" after an hour without a body.

The same type of thing happens in Farmer's "Riverworld" series.  The
main difference is that the new objects are made from more
traditional enegry forms, instead of the "flux" stuff.

Also in Riverworld, an appropriate device can gather souls of the
departed and store them for an arbitrary amount of time.

>Thus, where is no longer a problem of "well, I must have died when
>I was teleported" or of making two copies of a person. Also,
>medicine is easy: if someone is injured, kill him! Then the
>computer makes a new healthy copy and he's cured! (If you do it
>quick enough :-)

In Riverworld, this makes a fast means of transportation, but random
one: the persom is resurrected at some other (random) location.  But
that was done intentionally to the inhabitants.  The builders could
control the place of resurrection, by telling the computer.

Note that after a certain (large) number of resurrections, the
"soul" (Farmer calls it the "ka"), loses the affinity it had for the
reconstructed body and goes away forever.

In the Soulrider series, you needn't kill the person.  You simply
tell the computer what you want changed...

>Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of destroying the economy
>when someone makes 10 duplicates of a $10 bill (and because there
>is a supercomputer in the loop, they can even get different
>serial numbers!)

Actually, who needs an economy when you have cheap transmutation?
OK, a dollar bill is now useless.  It can't, for example, buy a loaf
of bread.  But when a loaf of bread can be created for "free", who
needs money?

While we're at it, how about the "Well of Souls" series, also by
Chalker.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 87 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #60
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Hogan (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 18:21:19 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy:  error about evolution of
Subject: aggression

   In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among other
things) a world where predators do not exist (except in the deep
ocean).  I will skip his theory of how evolution could work out to
forbid predation and concentrate instead on something more
clear-cut: he says that in the absence of predation, aggression will
not exist.  This has been shown to be false: some herbivores are
among the meanest creatures around.  Aggression has nothing at all
to do with predation (although the weapons that are useful for one
are useful for the other), except in cases of cannibalism.
Predation consists of eating other creatures for food; aggression
consists of threatening and/or attacking other creatures to prevent
them from competing for resources and/or mates.  It is obvious how
competition for the latter two can easily occur without predation
(limited resources, and a population free to breed at will, except
for the afore-mentioned limits on resources).  While evolution of
creatures without aggression is possible, any type of organism is
susceptible to developing aggression -- even sponges, which are
scarcely more active than plants, and no more complex, have a form
of aggression: different sponges (that is, from different zygotes,
not multiple sponges formed by fragmentation of one sponge) of the
same species cause necrosis of each others' tissues when they come
in contact.  The same sort of thing is seen in some sea anemones
which are only slightly more active and complex (they sting each
other).

   Apparently, James P. Hogan did not realize any of this at the
time he wrote the Giants trilogy.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
lucius@tardis.harvard.edu
seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius
lucius@borax.lcs.mit.edu
seismo!borax.lcs.mit.edu!lucius

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 01:18:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Hogan

   I will try not to make my comments about the book into a spoiler,
so my comments are mostly conclusions without examples.
     I have just finished reading "The Code of the Lifemaker" by
James. Hogan.  It is a real neat story.  Actually, I got hooked to
it after the first chapter.  Such a wit!!!  There isn't much of a
plot, but that is not the point.  The story does not really rely on
the plot to do the job.  It is a story about ourselves, our present
state of progress.  The story shows Hogan's disappointment in the
average human intelligence(Nobody has lost any money by
underestimating the intelligence of average Americans???!!! :-) It
is basically the same "machine overwhelms the brain" thesis as
applied in the "The Two Faces of Tomorrow" told in a different
aspect.  Hogan seems to think that it is ok to to spoil those who
are kind of dumb.  I cannot agree with that, but on the other hand, I
do think the main character in the story was doing a service to
those who have lots of money, and no brain(Shirley Maclaine?? No
flame please Out on a Limb??? :-) Also I don't think every
civilization has to go through a phase of religion
dominance(oriental civilization is a good example).
     I can understand Hogan's frustration with pseudosciences.
After all we get all kind of junk in the grocery store(Sun, Weekly
News).
     In short, "The Code of the Lifemaker" is well written, and
worth reading.
     Finally, I want to thank those who recommended the book, and for
those who have not read it yet, I strongly recommend it.

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 03:20:15 GMT
From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy:  error about
Subject: evolution...

chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among other
>things) a world where predators do not exist (except in the deep
>ocean).  I will skip his theory of how evolution could work out to
>forbid predation and concentrate instead on something more
>clear-cut: he says that in the absence of predation, aggression
>will not exist.  This has been shown to be false: some herbivores
>are among the meanest creatures around.

The only herbivores that we have around to study most definitely
evolved in a predator filled environment.  Therefore an argument
based on these 'aggressive' herbivores is fallacious.

Ok, with that out of the way....

"...in the absence of predation, aggression will not exist."

Given that predation exists, then aggression, by definition, also
exists.  (I think you'll agree to this.)

Given that predation does not exist, then aggression, by definition,
does not exist.  (here's the sticky part...)

Aggression: "1. an unprovoked attack or warlike act; 2. the practice
or habit of being aggressive, or quarrelsome."

Aggressive: "1. aggressing or inclined to aggress; starting fights or
quarrels.  2. ready or willing to take issue or engage in direct
action; militant."

Aggress: "to attack, to start a quarrel or be the first to attack."

Predation: "the method of existence of predatory animals."

Predatory: "1. of, living by, or characterized by plundering,
robbing, or exploiting others.  2. living by capturing and feeding
upon other animals."

Ok, predation can take two forms, Overt, and Covert.  Overt being
what is usually thought of, one animal eating another.  Covert,
being violent competition for resources of any sort, often between
members of the same species.  This is where Predatory #1 comes
in...exploitation of others.

If overt predation does not exist, then there are no predators to be
overtly aggressive.  So lack of overt predation rules out overt
aggression.  (Gee, half done!)

If covert predation does not exist, then there is no competition
between species for resources.  Covert aggression is therefore also
ruled out.

See, both halves of aggression ruled out along with both halves of
predation!

Ok, flip it around:

If aggression exists, then predation exists.

Fairly easy, if you're aggressive, then you're trying to exploit
some other being.  Ergo, predation.

If aggression does not exist, then predation does not exist.

Also not too hard, if no one is behaving aggressively, then there is
no exploitation, therefore no predation.

It seems to work from both ends....without predation, which is
exploitation of another, there is no reason for aggression.

What do you say Lucius?

Edwin Wiles
seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 05:54:05 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy:  error about
Subject: evolution...

   The amount that the creatures have to worry about predation does
not correlate with their aggression, as far as I know (that is, from
reading about examples).  I wish I could remember some examples of
herbivores which do not suffer significant predation, but I need
more than just elephants (which are, however, capable of getting
angry and stampeding, and compete for mates in not the most friendly
manner -- an aggressive behavior -- even though they did not suffer
predation except possibly of old and weak individuals (even a lion
won't mess with a grown elephant) until humans came along.

ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes:
>"...in the absence of predation, aggression will not exist."
>
>Given that predation exists, then aggression, by definition,
>also exists.  (I think you'll agree to this.)

   No I do not.  Predation is one way of getting food; the predator
is not competing with the prey, but eating it.  Lions do not hate
their prey any more than we hate the meat we get at the supermarket
(-: well, as long as it tastes decent for what we pay for it :-).

>Given that predation does not exist, then aggression, by definition,
>does not exist.  (here's the sticky part...)

Wrong, because the basis is false (see above).

>Aggression: "1. an unprovoked attack or warlike act; 2. the
>practice or habit of being aggressive, or quarrelsome."
>
>Aggressive: "1. aggressing or inclined to aggress; starting fights
>or quarrels.  2. ready or willing to take issue or engage in direct
>action; militant."
>
>Aggress: "to attack, to start a quarrel or be the first to attack."

   This definition is the one of choice for politics and
non-scientific human relations, but it doesn't cut it for biology.
For biology you have to add that it is only that which is an attempt
to deal with competition.

>Predation: "the method of existence of predatory animals."
>
>Predatory: "1. of, living by, or characterized by plundering,
>robbing, or exploiting others.  2. living by capturing and feeding
>upon other animals."

Only #2 is correct for biology.

>Ok, predation can take two forms, Overt, and Covert.  Overt being
>what is usually thought of, one animal eating another.  Covert,
>being violent competition for resources of any sort, often between
>members of the same species.  This is where Predatory #1 comes
>in...exploitation of others.

Predatory #1 is not predation in biology.  Therefore, exploitation
other than actually eating the exploited is not predation.

>If overt predation does not exist, then there are no predators to
>be overtly aggressive.  So lack of overt predation rules out overt
>aggression.  (Gee, half done!)

   Wrong.  What about fights for mates?  These occur in herbivores
independently of the level of predation (although under high threat
of a predator coming the animals MIGHT not get into it as much as if
the threat were not there).

>If covert predation does not exist, then there is no competition
>between species for resources.  Covert aggression is therefore also
>ruled out.

See above.

>See, both halves of aggression ruled out along with both halves of
>predation!

Only by redefining the words in a way unacceptable to standard
biological terminology.

> Ok, flip it around:
>
>If aggression exists, then predation exists.

Only if you redefine the words as above.

I refer you to Konrad Lorenz' _On_Aggression_.  I can't say that
everything in it is correct, but it will teach you the concept of
what aggression is and how it is different from predation.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
lucius@tardis.harvard.edu
seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius
lucius@borax.lcs.mit.edu
seismo!borax.lcs.mit.edu!lucius

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 18:50:17 GMT
From: loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

chiaraviglio@husc2.UUCP (lucius) writes:
>       In the Giants trilogy, James P. Hogan postulates (among
>other things) a world where predators do not exist (except in the
>deep ocean). I'll skip his theory of how evolution could work out
>to forbid predation

  But that's the whole point! The factor that prevents predation
also prevents ANY form of aggression.

>something more clear-cut: he says that in the absence of
>predation, aggression will not exist. This has been shown to be
>false: some herbivores are among the meanest creatures around.

  That's not what he says at all. Listen very carefully:

  James P. Hogan postulates a physical, anatomical rationale for the
absence of aggression in Minervan animals. Terrestrial animals rely
on the primary circulatory system (bloodstream) to dispose of
metabolic wastes.  Hogan's Minervan animals evolved a secondary
circulatory system for this purpose. Since the contents of this
secondary system were toxic, no predator could survive an attempt to
make a meal of any animal having this system.  Over millions of
years, the contents of this waste-disposal system became more and
more concentrated. Predatory species, which had barely gotten
started anyway, vanished entirely.

  The secondary system also inhibited non-predatory aggression. Any
injury, however slight, carried a major risk of contaminating the
primary circulatory system with concentrated wastes. Physical
aggression was selected out, since even minor injuries would kill
BOTH parties. Bone and horn guard plates were formed over joints and
other vulnerable areas to minimize the chances of accidental injury.

  Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how thoroughly
it colors our outlook?) world of predators and aggressors, can't see
any way for these critters to resolve the problem of
there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them,
but that may be more a matter of limited vision than fundamental
impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical violence is
Right Out.

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
loral!dml

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 01:44:58 GMT
From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>I can't see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of
>there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them,
>but that may be more a matter of limited vision than fundamental
>impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical violence is
>Right Out.

Not necessarily.  I haven't read the Hogan books, but suppose you
have two tribes of creatures competing.  Tribe A sends a kamikaze
into Tribe B.  He runs around, kicking, fighting, biting, etc.,
trying to do as many death-dealing injuries as possible before he
dies.  If he can trade even 2 for 1 it works out.  Keep in mind that
the physical changes Hogan postulates would no doubt result in a
different psychology that might well make this reasonable.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  srt@ucla
UUCP:  {cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 21:37:13 GMT
From: rlk@athena.mit.edu (Robert L Krawitz)
Subject: Re: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>Not necessarily.  I haven't read the Hogan books, but suppose you
>have two tribes of creatures competing.  Tribe A sends a kamikaze
>into Tribe B.  He runs around, kicking, fighting, biting, etc.,
>trying to do as many death-dealing injuries as possible before he
>dies.  If he can trade even 2 for 1 it works out.  Keep in mind
>that the physical changes Hogan postulates would no doubt result in
>a different psychology that might well make this reasonable.

One problem: the kamikaze trait would tend to get bred out of the
population.  The folks who could avoid this kamikaze role would tend
to have more offspring.

Of course, those individuals whose secondary circulatory systems
were less poisonous might be able to survive longer in general.  So
I'd suspect that the secondary circulatory system would eventually
get bred out of the population, or at least become less poisonous,
since in the absence of predators the secondary system is an
anti-survival trait.

But then predation might start to become more efficient, so maybe
the secondary system could redevelop...wonder if this would cause an
oscillation?

Robert

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 87 0944-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #61
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Time Travel (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 87 21:59:49 GMT
From: iuvax!cdaf@rutgers.edu (Charles Daffinger)
Subject: Time travel and energy prob's

From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>One of the things that disturbs me about all the talk that has gone
>on about teleport/transfer booths is the blithe way people have
>been talking about throwing away energy.  The First (and only)
>Commandment of the Univers is Thou Shalt Not Waste!!

This leads me to a question of energy and time travel.  Pardon my
naivete, but if you are traveling from one time to another, are you
not decreasing the energy and/or mass of the system you left
(defining the system as the universe at a given point in time) and
increasing that of the system you are entering?

It seems to me to be a violation of the law of conservation of
energy.

charles
Snail : Box 1662 Bloomington, In. 47402-1662
ATT   : (812) 339-7354
USENET: cdaf@iuvax.csnet
        iuvax!cdaf
BITNET: BCHC901@INDYCMS

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 87 05:32:28 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Time travel and energy prob's

cdaf@iuvax.UUCP (Charles Daffinger) writes:
>This leads me to a question of energy and time travel.  Pardon my
>naivete, but if you are traveling from one time to another, are you
>not decreasing the energy and/or mass of the system you left
>(defining the system as the universe at a given point in time) and
>increasing that of the system you are entering?
>
>It seems to me to be a violatioof the law of conservation of
>energy.

If time travel is possible, then the law of conservation of
mass/energy must operate over time as well; that is, the total
energy of a system as considered over time must neither increase nor
decrease.  In this case, the total energy of the four-dimensional
system (including time) will be neither increased nor decreased by
time travel, although to observers not cognizant of the
applicability of the law of conservation of mass/energy over time it
will seem that mass/energy has decreased or increased, depending on
which side of the trip they are observing.  (To those looking from
``outside'' (if such a thing is possible), it would be obvious that
mass/energy was conserved; it merely changed its four-dimensional
location.)

The whole idea of time travel is to change the four-dimensional
location of an object or person in a way analogous to regular
``space'' (in the physice sense) travel changing the
three-dimensional location of an object/person.  Therefore, a
necessary result is that mass/energy MUST be conserved over the
four-dimensional space traversed, just as it is in three-dimensional
space -- otherwise, you aren't traveling; but I'll be d*mned if I
know what you *are* doing (besides glowing in the dark... :-).  A
side effect of this consideration is that the idea of an object's
kinetic energy changing as it moves through time, as shown in BACK
TO THE FUTURE -- which is ridiculous anyway; it would be POTENTIAL
energy that was changing -- would not happen.  If it did, it would
violate the four-dimensional version of the law of conservation of
mass/energy.  Which then leaves the question of the effect of
entropy in such a system; but if entropy is simply a measure of the
distribution of mass/energy within the system, it would play no part
in time travel anyway.

Of course, I'm not exactly a temporal physicist; I'm just throwing
out ideas.  It makes sense when compared with what physics I know,
but maybe someone who knows more about the physics of time can come
up with a better explanation.  (I doubt it; not because I believe
I'm correct, but because we don't have any ability to test theories
about time travel, so we simply can't know the ``truth'' about it at
this point.  It's all nothing more than speculation.)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 781 6201

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 87 17:50:58 pst
From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
Subject: Time travel

In a previous letter, the concept of time was noted to be a
perceptually based phenomena.  I submit then that time travel is
quite easy, and practiced daily by most people.  Using the above
concept of time, the act of remembering past events is a form of
time travel - though perhaps rather limited, as one is forced into a
purely passive role...

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 87 09:50:23 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: Re: "If man were meant to travel through time..."

> Science fiction is not limited to literature since 1850 -- look at
> DaVinci's sketches of human-powered flying machines, for example.

While we're at it, let's go WAY back: Homer's Odyssey.  Consider: A
captain voyages beyond the scope of the known world, encountering
strange creatures along the way.  Note that this IS fiction (at
least, I assume that Homer didn't think that Odysseus really did all
of those things), and it is NOT fantasy since the science of Homer's
day considered such adventures, if anything, more possible than our
science considers, say, faster-than-light travel (or interstellar
travel of any form, for that matter).

I suppose you could make distinctions, by saying that Homer's tale
could have been an elaboration of a true story, or by citing some
aspect generally specific to the mythological realm.  I distinguish
this from mythology in that mythology was used to explain the world
in terms of forces (gods) the people could understand.  The Odyssey
naturally made reference to those forces, but only by assuming their
existence and using them as part of the existing universe (i.e.,
existence of gods was state-of-the-art science, therefore including
them merely remained consistent with the laws of the universe, as
Homer knew them).  NOT including the gods might have been considered
fantasy, back then!  The main point was a journey outside of the
known world, consistent with everything they believed possible back
then.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 87 13:12 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Dan Parmenter at Hampshire
Subject: Loss/gain of energy in time travel.

Glad to hear that people are finally mentioning this minor problem
in Time Travel. Niven mentions it in his essay on Time Travel that
appeared in All The Myriad Ways, but didn't really elaborate on how
it could be solved.

As I see it, time occurs in discrete units, like frames of film.  If
you move to another 'frame', you are sort of being 'matted-in', and
are not violating any laws regarding creation of matter and energy.
If you wait long enough, you'll show up in your own frame, just in
time to see yourself leave.  Simple, eh?

For a VERY good treatment of looking at time in a different way, I
suggest issue #4 of The Watchmen (DC comics).  In it, there is a
character called Dr. Manhattan to whom time is all simultaneous.  He
cannot prevent disasters in the future because to him, they are
already happening.  To him, everything is the present.  It is
implied though, that he has some measure of free will.  The
astonishing thing is that for him, anything he does is at best whim,
since he already knows the eventual outcome of whatever he does.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 20:08:46 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel.

>As I see it, time occurs in dsicrete units, like frames of film.

Well, close but not quite.  Work being done in (at least) the fields
of distributed and parallel algorithms seems to suggest that the
more zen-like/philosophical ways of perceiving time are correct.

Time is created by a sequence of observable events.  If no
observable event occurs, no time elapses.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 17:59:19 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel.

chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes:
>Time is created by a sequence of observable events.  If no
>observable event occurs, no time elapses.

Bull. If this were true, then you have a circular definition. The
entire progress of time would stop if there were, for any reason,
and no matter how short the time, no observable events.

Becuase there'd be no progress of time until the next event
happened, and with no time flow, the time when that event happened
would never roll around.

Consider the time between two events, anywhere in the universe, such
as the movement of a photon, or something. If you have this quantum
view of time, then in some interval, the photon will appear to be
here, then suddenly there, from one time quanta to the next. And
there's old Zeno again.

In an entirely different vein...

Say, speaking of Zeno, what if someone went back in a time machine
and killed him before he became so confusing. Would we all be slower
than tortoises?

Think about it.

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 87 02:54:19 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage)
Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel.

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes:
>>Time is created by a sequence of observable events.  If no
>>observable event occurs, no time elapses.
>Bull. If this were true, then you have a circular definition. The
>entire progress of time would stop if there were, for any reason,
>and no matter how short the time, no observable events.  Becuase
>there'd be no progress of time until the next event happened, and
>with no time flow, the time when that event happened would never
>roll around.  Consider the time between two events, anywhere in the
>universe, such as the movement of a photon, or something. If you
>have this quantum view of time, then in some interval, the photon
>will appear to be here, then suddenly there, from one time quanta
>to the next.

Exactly!  Given the quantum view of time, the photon *will* move in
jumps which would seem jerky if we saw time in such small amounts.
**But We Don't**

So, if no time passes, so what?  We don't notice it, that's all.
You are looking at time in a linear fashion, and assuming a
connection between the quanta -- a connection which may not exist.
The universe need not stop just because nothing happens for a
moment; we little biospecks on the surface of the 3rd planet of a
backwater star happen to see time as a series of events that
progresses in one direction only.  Does that mean that this is the
only possible interpretation?

I am admittedly not an expert or even an informed layman, nor do I
make any claim to be right, so others may explain this better than I
do.  But "the whole progress of time" need not exist as a "progress"
at all.  In some theories/hypotheses, it does, in others it doesn't.
The only objection I have to Bruce's argument is that he denies the
validity of the quantum view by saying that it claims a quantum
view.  Now who's circular?  Might as well say that calling me
"Ellen" is invalid because my name is spelled E-l-l-e-n.  By
definition, photons will jerk through the quanta.  So that cannot be
a basis for argument.  (Bruce, this is not a flame.  Your article
didn't bother me at all, only its methodology).

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 87 13:36:13 GMT
From: lifia!pasquier@rutgers.edu
Subject: Time References Needed

  I am currently writing a commented bibliography about Time Travel.

This will not be only a list of authors and their writings, but a
real analysis of all the methods ever used in literature for
travelling in time.  I do not intend to (re)start here this already
much discussed topic, but just ASK for your BEST REFERENCES about
the novels and stories you know whose plot implies a significant
travel of a person or material in the past or the future.

  Each reference of my present work (I already have about a
hundred...) quotes the author, the title of the novel/novella/short
story... and the date it has been written (or first published). But
in order I could mention it in the right place, I also need a brief
description of the way of time travelling used...  My classification
is based upon this.

  Among others, we can distinguish these most common methods:

    - subjective travel using mental power, drugs, imagination or
      dream...
    - one-way-only physical travel in future due to hibernation and
      artificial sleep, or to relativity spatial
    - time travel through temporal gates:
       hazardous travels due to electric-magnetic,nuclear and so on
       accidents, physical or emotional shocks or deliberate travels
       using natural gates, mental or magic power...
    - "technical" travels using time machines (all kind of...)

  In case the travel to another time implies more than sole
observation, I discuss about the consequences of possible actions,
especially on History.

  Please mail me your references. I'll make a summary of my work and
post it in this newsgroup as soon as I feel satisfied with it...

Michel B. Pasquier
L.I.F.I.A.
BP 68. 38402. St Martin d'Heres Cedex
pasquier@lifia.UUCP
{seismo.css.gov|mcvax|inria|imag}!lifia!pasquier

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 06:25:35 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel.

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes:
>>Time is created by a sequence of observable events.  If no
>>observable event occurs, no time elapses.
>
>Bull. If this were true, then you have a circular definition. The
>entire progress of time would stop if there were, for any reason,
>and no matter how short the time, no observable events.

You assume that time is necessary for events to happen.  I'm turning
it around.  Movement in time is created by the occurence of events.
If you have events, you have time-flow.  If you have no events, no
time *passes*.  You still have time (that is, you can still
determine that the current time is tick 42), it just hasn't moved
forward.  Time is totally event-driven.

And yes, that implies that time-flow is quantum.  So what?  It may
not even make sense to talk about time as a physical thing.  Given
this way of looking at time, it's more a concept than a thing.

Ray

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 17:50:32 GMT
From: endot!hinch@rutgers.edu (hold horns high)
Subject: Re: Loss/gain of energy in time travel.

chen@gt-stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes:
>Movement in time is created by the occurrence of events.  If you
>have events, you have time-flow.  If you have no events, no time
>*passes*.  You still have time (that is, you can still determine
>that the current time is tick 42), it just hasn't moved forward.
>Time is totally event-driven.

That contains the seed of an argument for God.  It requires that
future events be scheduled, and that an agent be responsible for
advancing time to the point when each event is to occur.  Worse, if
time is event driven for us, it must be so for God, hence requiring
a super-God, and so on.  There are other problems as well.  Check
out algorithms for event driven simulation to see them.

>And yes, that implies that time-flow is quantum. ...

It does.  On the other hand time may be quantized without requiring
it to be event driven.  Time may consist of an emission of
indivisible scenarios, each one as big as the universe.  That does
not require time to be event driven, however, just as the frames on
a movie are not event driven, but are a seeming continuum of frames.

Frederick Hinchliffe 2nd
ENDOT, Inc.  11001 Cedar Ave  Cleveland, OH 44106
Usenet: decvax!cwruecmp!endot!hinch
216.229.8900

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 87 0808-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #62
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Brin (4 msgs) &
                     Kurtz (2 msgs) & L'Engle (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 87 18:37:34 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: literature metrics (sort of)

NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes:
>>The most familiar example of this syndrome is Piers Anthony's
>>Xanth Trilogy (ha!). As evidenced by some of his earlier work
>>(Tarot, Omnivore, Macroscope, et al) he has the ability to be an
>>excellent writer.  Bang! along comes Xanth, and we lose another
>>good storyteller, gaining yet another Alan Dean Hackwriter.
>
>Well, I can tell by previous postings that lots of people out there
>agree with Ray's viewpoint, and that I'm about to lose credibility
>with these people.  However, I have to say that I much preferred
>P.A.'s Xanth series to the Tarot series or Macroscope.  (I haven't
>read Omnivore, so I can't speak to that.)  I don't think there's
>enough interest in this for me to expand on exactly why, so I
>won't.  I will just state briefly (for the record, so to speak)
>that for me the most important test of a good writer is his use of
>words to convey his message.  (Feminists and all others please note
>- "his" is used in the classic, generic sense, referring to any
>person, male or female.)  As someone who grew up reading fairy
>tales, I can suspend a lot of disbelief for someone who can delight
>me with his choice of words.  Plot, character development, good
>scientific details, all of these are very important, but I consider
>them secondary.  Anyone want to continue the discussion??

Hear Hear!  Nowhere does PA claim that Xanth is serious reading!
They are however *fun* to read! The series as a whole has
deteriorated maybe because the man has started doing all sorts of
strange things to the plots to get a good pun in there somewhere at
the expense of a sensible plot. The first 3 were really good library
book read (you don't think I'd want to read a Xanth book more than
once do you? :-), the plots made enough sense to hang all the
gratutitous joke off whilst still going somewhere and there was some
characterisation.  (At least as much as the is in classics like
Sleeping Beauty et al.) not only that but the jokes were funny. I'm
not saying everybody should rave about these books as being the best
thing since (insert favourite book) but they are *not* as awful as
everybody seems to claim, neither are they his best work. I prefer
Macroscope and the Magic/technology crossovers he seems to do so
well.

Right I've said it, now lend me an asbestos jacket.

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 21:41:09 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Anthony Theory of Ramifications

>Completely aside from the fact that Piers Anthony has been
>rehashing the same old jokes over and over again since he began
>(and I LOVE puns!), I HAD to stop reading his works
>because..........  Anthony must BELIEVE that there are separate
>lists of qualities for men and women.....

Anthony seems to have a number of techniques for keeping away
writer's block, most of which seem to add up to not having anything
to block.  Obsessively basing his books on games (life, sprouts,
scissors-paper-stone...) or other patterns is one.  Another is his
belief that anything that was funny once is still funny.

Then there's the Anthony Theory of Ramifications which states that
skill in one area carries over into areas that are related
pragmatically, semantically, syntacticly or phonologically.

For example, if a Piers Anthony character is a skilled tracker, he
will probably also be skilled at any task which involves pattern
recognition -- analyzing satellite photos, for example -- because
that is what trackers do.  He'll also have an intimate understanding
of animals.  He'll be able to carry his forest skills over to a city
because prey acts in consistent ways.  If the book is not pure
science fiction he'll probably also be able to perform miracles with
eight-track tape and be a star at track meets.

(This 'theory', of course runs counter to what we think we know
about human skills.  In actual fact, there isn't even much carryover
from skill at, say, tennis to skill at ping-pong or badminton.)

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 87 23:13:32 GMT
From: clark@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Clark Quinn)
Subject: Brin's Uplift War?

My friend (who currently doesn't have access to the net) brought
this question up and we both are interested in the answer.  Having
enjoyed Sun-Diver and Startide Rising (I also particularly enjoyed
The Postman), we are wondering when the sequel is coming.  Startide
Rising clearly left some loose ends that begged for a sequel, and we
have both heard that the new book already has the title The Uplift
War, so we are curious as to where this book is and when it will
come out.  Does anyone have any information?  I apologize if this
has already been discussed, but I was busy qualifying and haven't
been able to read the news as much as I'd like.  I would appreciate
someone mailing me a reply (even if it is posted, too).  Thanks in
advance,

Clark N. Quinn
Institute for Cognitive Science C-015
University of California, San Diego
La Jolla, California 92093
(619) 534-5996 (UCSD): (619) 457-1274 (Home)
{ucbvax,decvax,akgua,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!sdics!clark.uucp
clark@nprdc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 87 07:10:42 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Brin's Uplift War?

clark@sdics.ucsd.EDU (Clark Quinn) writes:
>Having enjoyed Sun-Diver and Startide Rising (I also particularly
>enjoyed The Postman), we are wondering when the sequel is coming.
>[...]  and we have both heard that the new book already has the
>title The Uplift War, so we are curious as to where this book is
>and when it will come out. Does anyone have any information?

Good news: it should be out fairly quickly, like within the next six
weeks.

Bad news: the initial publication is a limited edition hardback.  I
        haven't seen a schedule on a regular hardback, so I don't
        think we'll see that until at least August (if ever, I don't
        know if Brin has cut a hardcover deal yet).  Paperback
        probably won't show up until at least first quarter 88,
        although if there isn't a regular hardcover it may be
        sooner.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 04:52:17 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Brin's Uplift War? [oops]

I should never trust my memory.  I just looked this up.  The
paperback is due out this summer from Bantam -- probably in the July
or August lists, but I'm not positive.  Expect to see it in the
stores either in late June or July in paperback.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 07:10:58 GMT
From: viper!dave@rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: The Uplift War

I heard a rumor that "The Uplift War" was comming out before Minicon
(David Brin is GOH).  That would put it before April or so.

David Messer
Lynx Data Systems
{amdahl|ihnp4|rutgers}!dayton!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 25 Feb 1987 06:46:26-PST
From: devi%mailer.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Katherine Kurtz

Any news on when the last book in the latest Deryni triology will be
coming out?  I've always wondered whether Camber is really dead, or
just waiting for someone to release him from the death-defying spell
that he was able to place on himself in the first series....Ms.
Kurtz was a little hazy about Camber's death/non-death.

And what about Rhys' daughter.  According to the geneology charts
she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she
would be the greatest healer around.  Nary a word.  So many
potential story-lines!  And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting
better and better!

Gita

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 18:50:50 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz

Verily, I will answer this before my sister
minister-without-portfolio in the East seeth it (Hi, Alison!).

devi%mailer.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>Any news on when the last book in the latest Deryni triology will
>be coming out?  I've always wondered whether Camber is really dead,
>or just waiting for someone to release him from the death-defying
>spell that he was able to place on himself in the first
>series....Ms. Kurtz was a little hazy about Camber's
>death/non-death.

I have in my hand a copy of "The Quest for Saint Camber", which came
out in hardcover last year but is not yet out in paperback. It is
not up to par with the previous books, but I will not give spoilers
here.  Also, do you know of the collection of short stories which is
out in paperback, called "Deryni Archives"? It is excellent. And I
have heard for some time of a book called "Codex Derynianus" which
was supposed to be out from a small press. It is listed in Books in
Print and a store owner told me he had seen one (1) copy of it, but
I have not been able to find it anywhere. Change of Hobbit, the
large sf bookstore in Santa Monica, says it's spurious.

>And what about Rhys' daughter.  According to the geneology charts
>she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she
>would be the greatest healer around.  Nary a word.  So many
>potential story-lines!  And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting
>better and better!

Yes, I'd like to hear about her. I'd *really* like to know how
Cinhil's son Rhys fared as king, and *especially* how in hell he
came to marry Michaela Drummond; not a geneology that would be
approved by the Regents, there...

About Ms. Kurtz's writing, I'm afraid I have to disagree; her
stories are fascinating but her writing is cliched. Duncan, in
trance, recalls his secret marriage: "Innocent that I was, it never
occurred to me that our one painfully brief union might have borne
fruit." OUCH.

Drop me a line if you'd like to trade Deryni speculation (or filks),
but you should read QfSC first...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 1987 16:34:35-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re:  Teleportation

Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather
whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by Madeleine
L'Engle?  There are two things that stick in my mind about this
story, which I read way back in seventh grade:

1 - It used a teleportation method called a tesseract.  The author
    (through one of the strange protagonists) described it by
    analogy as similar to an insect walking across a piece of
    fabric.  If a person folds the fabric so that the far end meets
    with the spot on which the insect is walking, the insect will
    cross the fold.  When the fabric is unfolded, Lo and Behold! the
    insect has traveled the entire length of the material without
    really walking far at all.  difference in the explanation).  At
    the time, I didn't know that "tesseract" was a real mathematical
    term; later, when that concept was introduced to me, I recalled
    this story with a smile.

2 - The book actually starts out with the phrase, "It was a dark and
    stormy night...".  I can still picture Snoopy sitting on his
    doghouse pounding out the first draft of "A Wrinkle in Time".
    :-)

Brian M. Clapper
Naval Air Development Center
Warminster, PA
ARPA: clapper@nadc
UUCP: ...harvard!clapper@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 23:23:21 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky)
Subject: Re:  Madeline L'Engle (was Teleportation)

clapper@nadc writes:
>Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather
>whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by Madeleine
>L'Engle?

I certainly do!  Madeline L'Engle has written several
almost-sf/fantasy `juveniles', and all are very good.  I
particularly recommend "The Young Unicorns", my personal favourite,
although "Wrinkle" is her most famous work.  As far as I can tell,
all of her books are related by minor characters, and involve three
different generations.  She can get a bit carried away where Loving
Others is concerned, but since it's a good ideal I'm willing let it
pass.  She's an excellent writer, and she's not afraid to approach
subjects that were quite taboo when she started writing.  I
recommend her books to readers of all ages and all genres.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 05:56:21 GMT
From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes about George R. Stewart's
*Earth Abides*:
>For such a remarkably good novel, I am amazed by its relative
>obscurity, even within sf fandom. It took me several trips to the
>local second-hand bookshop to find it (they have an excellent
>stock), it was republished shortly after I found my copy but I have
>no idea of the extent of its distribution.

The novel is very widely known in the San Francisco Bay Area, since
Geo.  R.  Stewart was a well known writer who lived in Berkeley at a
time when there were very few writers on the west coast.  I suspect
every California public library has a copy -- not shelved under sf.

Incidentally, Stewart also wrote a book called *Storm* (about the
life of a storm) which introduced the custom of naming tropical
storms.

Randolph Fritz
rfritz@sun.com rfritz@sun.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 09:23:51 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Madeleine L'Engle (was Teleportation)

From:   sq!becky        (Becky Slocombe)
> ...Madeline L'Engle has written several almost-sf/fantasy
> `juveniles', and all are very good.  I particularly recommend "The
> Young Unicorns", my personal favourite, although "Wrinkle" is her
> most famous work.

My favorite of hers is still A RING OF ENDLESS LIGHT, which is
definitely sf/fantasy (one of the main characters is able to
communicate telepathically with dolphins). My favorite non-juvenile
of hers is A SEVERED WASP, which is sf only by the very loosest of
definitions (internal chronology places the events as happening in
the mid-1990's, but for all intents and purposes, it reads like a
contemporary novel).

> As far as I can tell, all of her books are related by minor
> characters, and involve three different generations.

Quite true. Well, actually only two generations. The children of
Calvin O'Keefe and Meg Murry (from the Time Trilogy) are the
protagonists or supporting characters in three other novels.  Other
minor supporting characters do link up almost every other novel of
hers. The only ones that don't seem to connect in any way are ILSA
(her second novel) and THE LOVE LETTERS.
        Her most recent novel, MANY WATERS, has a chart on the
end-papers showing the various character connections. There is at
least one that I know of that isn't mentioned, though.

> She can get a bit carried away where Loving Others is concerned,
> but since it's a good ideal I'm willing let it pass.  She's an
> excellent writer, and she's not afraid to approach subjects that
> were quite taboo when she started writing.  I recommend her books
> to readers of all ages and all genres.

I'll second the recommendation. She's one of my favorite writers.
Surprisingly enough, I consider the Time Trilogy to be amongst her
lesser works. I'd read most of her other novels before reading the
Time Trilogy, and I was somewhat disappointed in the latter.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 87 0843-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #63
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Doctor Who (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 16:43:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Dr. Who and the Computers

     I have been watching Dr. Who on TV these days(Yes, the first
time).  Does anyone know why the computers in Dr.Who series are
always bad?  The robots are even worse(Dalex??!!).  Why was the
auther of the series so afraid of the computers, and related
technologies?  I guess it is another one of those paranoia of the
50's.  I prefer to think the computers as they were depicted in "The
Two Faces of Tomorrow".  I mean as something that is neither against
or for the humanistic ethics.
     I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they were
unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war).  Now, I begin
to understand why people went crazy when someone broadcasted the
"Martians are landing" story (by olson Wells).  I cannot remember
people's names very well).
     It is interesting to see the movies of 80's full of high tech
images.  I guess people are getting used to computers now.  I think
the basic problem is who is in control.  I think it will be
beneficial to us if we learn that it is health to forfeit the
controls which we are not good at, and in general realize that there
is no scientific law which garantees that we are superior in any way
than the machines we build.

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 00:13:53 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers

xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:

>      I have been watching Dr. Who on TV these days(Yes, the first
> time).  Does anyone know why the computers in Dr.Who series are
> always bad?

No, not always.

> The robots are even worse(Dalex??!!).  Why was the auther of the
> series so afraid of the computers, and related technologies?  I
> guess it is another one of those paranoia of the 50's.  I prefer
> to think the computers as they were depicted in "The Two Faces of
> Tomorrow".  I mean as something that is neither against or for the
> humanistic ethics.

I don't think it was a fear of computers, as much as a fear of what
unknown things could be done by computers. Doctor Who was a show
started in 1963. Much of the early stories (minus the Daleks) were
somewhat historical in context (for a good part), or not about
computers. It seems if computers were so feared, the Doctor wouldn't
of had one in his Tardis.
     The Daleks, by the way, are mutants. They have no physical
bodies, and use the containers to move around and live. For the most
part, the Daleks are computeristicly thinking (they forget they were
onxe biological bi-peds of the humanoid race [watch Genesis of the
Daleks, a Tom Baker story]).  In "The Face of Evil" the computer was
demented only due to human error (actually, the Doctor's error). It
was not bad. In a John Pertwee story (the name slips my mind, but it
was the last one with the companion Jo Grant [Katy Manning(sp?)]),
the computer did become more powerful. Another story, the Robot's
turned on the humans only because another human re-programmed them
to do so(ROBOT was one of those stories). See, It does go both ways.

>      I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they
> were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war).  Now, I
> begin to understand why people went crazy when someone broadcasted
> the "Martians are landing" story (by olson Wells.  I cannot
> remember people's names very well).

Yes, It is Orson Welles, and the story was "War of the Worlds", a
classic piece of "SF" literature (personal opinion). The writer
slips my mind for a minute.

>     It is interesting to see the movies of 80's full of high tech
> images.  I guess people are getting used to computers now.  I
> think the basic problem is who is in control.  I think it will be
> beneficial to us if we learn that it is health to forfeit the
> controls which we are not good at, and in general realize that
> there is no scientific law which garantees that we are superior in
> any way than the machines we build.

   Remember, something that is created is no better than the one(s)
who created it. I think that sums up my feelings.

John E. Langbein
Phone  : 878-0594
45 Brinckerhoff Avenue
Freehold, N.J. 07728
ARPAnet: langbein@topaz
Usenet : caip!topaz!langbein

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 00:53:04 GMT
From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers

xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>  I have been watching Dr. Who on TV these days(Yes, the first
> time).  Does anyone know why the computers in Dr.Who series are
> always bad?  The robots are even worse(Dalex??!!).  Why was the
> auther of the series so afraid of the computers, and related
> technologies?  I guess it is another one of those paranoia of the
> 50's.  I prefer to think the computers as they were depicted in
> "The Two Faces of Tomorrow".  I mean as something that is neither
> against or for the humanistic ethics.
>      I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they
> were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war).  Now, I
> begin to understand why people went crazy when someone broadcasted
> the "Martians are landing" story (Was is by olson Wells.  I cannot
> remember people's names very well).
>      It is interesting to see the movies of 80's full of high tech
> images.  I guess people are getting used to computers now.  I
> think the basic problem is who is in control.  I think it will be
> beneficial to us if we learn that it is health to forfeit the
> controls which we are not good at, and in general realize that
> there is no scientific law which garantees that we are superior in
> any way than the machines we build.

'Careful with that axe Eugene' (Sorry, couldn't resist that) articles
like that start wars - so here's the first round:

First: they're Daleks (and they aren't robots or computers as you
seem to imply) and he's Orson Welles.

Dr. Who isn't 50's paranoia - I used to hide behind the settee at
the nasty bits when they were first shown (in England) in the 70's,
which was half the thrill - they were SCARY.
        It seems to me that your attitude towards the older SF is a
little patronizing; after all, when these films/books/etc came out
computers were large menacing looking objects, not the nice,
unimposing little white boxes sitting tidily on your desk. Also, the
world in general was just beginning to come to terms with the idea
of 'hi-tech' as we call it, and didn't really have much idea as to
where it was leading. As will always happen, people were frightened
by things they didn't understand and this is reflected in the high
incidence of paranoiac themes in the SF of a couple of decades ago.
In some senses I find this a little more stimulating than the
hi-tech, meaningless swashbuckling we get now, full of flashy
imagery that it might be. Perhaps it echoes a superficial approach
to things scientific that SF fans of a couple of decades hence will
see in the 80's.

Besides, the main aim of SF is to pose the question: 'What might
happen if...'  In the 50s and 60s this was popularly:'What might
happen if the Martians invaded the Earth?', today we have:'What
would happen if I made a film using all the high tech gadgetry now
available to me, and how much would it gross?'

Sorry if this seems a little incoherent - it's just that they're
about to shut down this computer for maintenance and I felt a point
had to be made.

Incidentally, I have absolutely no problem with who's in control
user/computer -wise - I do everything that this machine tells me to.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and polish its CPU.

P.S. I just thought of something: How can you say that they made
paranoid films in the fifties when the most popular sf film of last
year was ALIENS? Sheesh,I just know there's a face-hugger hiding in
my closet. AAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 03:10:28 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers

langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) writes:
> In a John Pertwee story (the name slips my mind, but it was the
> last one with the companion Jo Grant [Katy Manning(sp?)]), the
> computer did become more powerful.

The name of the episode was The Green Death.

>>      I have recently seen some SF movies of the 50's. BOY, they
>> were unbelievably paranoid(Especially the worlds at war).  Now, I
>> begin to understand why people went crazy when someone
>> broadcasted the "Martians are landing" story ( by Orson Welles.
>> I cannot remember people's names very well).
> Yes, It is Orson Welles, and the story was "War of the Worlds", a
> classic piece of "SF" literature (personal opinion). The writer
> slips my mind for a minute.

The radio Show was by Orson Welles the original Novel By H.G. Wells

Cheers,

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 16:20:53 GMT
From: gh@ukc.ac.uk (G.Hocking)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers

xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>why people went crazy when someone broadcasted the "Martians are
>landing" story (by olson Wells.  I cannot remember people's
>names very well).

"War of the Worlds" (the book you are referring to) was written by
H.G.Wells, and the radio version which caused all the panic was
narrated by Orson Welles (no relation - note the difference in
spelling)

Gary Hocking

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 00:42:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers



John Langbein wrote:
>       Remember, something that is created is no better than the
>one(s) who created it. I think that sums up my feelings.

     I agree that as long as the machine does not modify itself, it
cannot improve itself.  However, if we give the machine the ability
to learn, and modefy itself, it will soon learn something we do not
know.  Computer checker is a perfect example.  The computer beated
its programmer.  Well, you might argue that the computer did this
because its speed.  My point is more fundamental: In principle,
there is nothing to prevent a learning computer to get smarter, and
smarter.  Of course, I am talking about a very sophisticated
computer which can manufacture VLSI for itself, and of course
improve its design along the way.  I think that is what James Hogan
was trying to say in "The Two Faces of Tomorrow".
     One might say that computers do not think.  It is just a bunch
of electronics signal running around.  I suggest we look at what is
going on inside our brain physically.  It is just as bad--bunch of
neurons firing chemicals at each other.  Who is there to say who is
better?
     So far the computer has been learning exclusively from us.  As
long as this is the case, it cannot be better than us.  However,
once we give it the ability to learn from nature, everything
changes.

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 87 22:03:00 GMT
From: xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers

tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP writes:
>Incidentally, I have absolutely no problem with who's in control
>user/computer -wise - I do everything that this machine tells me
>to. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and polish its CPU.
>
>P.S. I just thought of something: How can you say that they made
>paranoid films in the fifties when the most popular sf film of last
>year was ALIENS? Sheesh,I just know there's a face-hugger hiding in
>my closet. AAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!

     These are real good lines.  Thank you for the wit.  The CPU
here goes down every other day.  As to Aliens being very popular, I
don't think it is because Aliens is a sf movie, rather it is because
it is a horror movie.  By the way Aliens is not a story of computer
anyway.  I believe Aliens is in the same category which "Friday the
Thirteen" series belong to.(No flame please.  I know that series is
pretty bad.  I am just here to make a point).
     Oh I have another question here about Dr. Who series.  I
watched one episode about the Daleks(This time I spell it
right??!!).  However, it did not finish at all.  It is about the
Daleks on a planet with a huge refrigeration unit(large enough to
freeze an ocean??)  The Daleks used some kind of bacteria to attack
humans.  The episode was cut half way.  The last scene I saw was when
the bacteria was released prematurely by an accident.  Can anyone
tell me how did that episode end?

Eugene

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 18:25:24 GMT
From: rwn@ihuxe.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D.

Last nite I couldn't sleep.  About 12:30 in the morning I turned on
WGN-TV (channel 9 in Chicago) and they were showing the movie
"Invasion Earth 2150 A.D." which was a full-length feature film on
the Dalek invasion of earth (one of the early DR WHO episodes).

Having seen all the early black and white episodes in Chicago on
WTTW a few months ago, seeing this movie was great. I missed the
introduction (and I couldn't stay awake for the ending -I did have
to work the next day), but the movie WAS GREAT!  Peter Cushing plays
the doctor -in an interesting charicature that was different from
any of the TV doctors - and the movie was in color.

The "flying saucer" spaceship looked cool.  In fact, the insides of
the ship, inclusive of the flashing lights and "cheap" controls were
reminiscent of the insides of the Thunderbird crafts from the Gerry
Anderson TV series.  Anyone know if Gerry Anderson's people were
involved with the special effects in thois movie.?

I'd like to see the movie in its entirety (some evening when I'm not
half asleep).  Is the flick available on videotape?

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 19:27:34 GMT
From: view3b5@ihlpl.ATT.COM (Pruitt)
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth 2150 A.D.

rwn@ihuxe.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes:
> Last nite I couldn't sleep.  About 12:30 in the morning I turned
> on WGN-TV (channel 9 in Chicago) and they were showing the movie
> "Invasion Earth 2150 A.D." which was a full-length feature film on
> the Dalek invasion of earth (one of the early DR WHO episodes).
>
> I'd like to see the movie in its entirety (some evening when I'm
> not half asleep).  Is the flick available on videotape?

The January 1987 issue of Video magazine lists the movie as now
being available on tape.  It is distrubuted by HBO/Cannon.  How they
can ask such a price for this grade C movie with a straight face is
beyond me.  However, since it is available on tape, I'm sure it can
be rented at some of the bigger video stores.  You might have to ask
them to order it and they might be mad at you after they see what
they have gotten.  :-)

Hope this helps....

Kit Kimes
AT&T-IS
Naperville, Il
...ihnp4!iwvae!kimes

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 87 0853-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #64
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:

               Books - Ballard & Donaldson (9 msgs) &
                       LeGuin (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 87 8:09:31 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <control@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: donn@utah-cs.arpa
Subject: Ballard's MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE

Some weeks back, Donn Seeley posted a consolidated review of six
different SF collections. That review prompted me to look for those
books at the local library, and I found some of them. This is in
regard to a comment of his in that posting wherein he said,
regarding the subject book by Ballard:

"Unfortunately Triad Granada didn't see fit to print the original
publication information for the stories in this book, so I don't
know if they come from a cross-section of Ballard's career, as they
appear to."

Well, the library's copy of MYTHS OF THE NEAR FUTURE is another
edition, in hardback. It's published by Jonathan Cape Ltd., Thirty
Bedford Square, London. This edition DOES contain at least the
following publishing history info for the stories in this volume:

"The following stories originally appeared in these publications:
AMBIT,'The Intensive Care Unit' (1977), 'Zodiac 2000' (1978);
BANANAS, 'The Smile' (1976), 'The Dead Time' (1977), 'Theatre of
War' (1977), 'Having A Wonderful Time' (1978), 'Motel Architecture'
(1978); TIME OUT, 'A Host Of Furious Fancies' (1980)."

Now, this does NOT include all the stories in the book; 'News From
The Sun' and 'Myths Of The Near Future' are not listed, so maybe
this book was the original publication of those two. I don't
recognize the names of the publications listed above; I suppose they
are small British literary journals or fanzines? Of course, the
"publication date" info does not necessarily mean that the stories
were actually written at those times; they could have been written
much earlier and not published until then.  To know that, we would
have to ask Ballard himself... But at least the publication history
spans only a few years, from the late '70s to 1982 (the book's
copyright date).

Just thought I'd send this out to provide the data for the record.

Regards,
Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 87 18:49:30 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_aprm@rutgers.edu (Paul R Markowitz)
Subject: Donaldson (SPOILER for TMOHD)

All the Donaldson talk recently has centered on the Covenant series.
This topic has been hashed and rehashed for a long time.  I would
like to carry it to his new series, started in The Mirror Of Her
Dreams.

I liked the Covenant books, although I had some problems accepting
Covanent as a person, I got tired of the setting, and I thought more
should have happened.  Covenant is a very verbose writer and when
reading his books, my eyes sometimes skipped passages, to avoid
boredom.

I recently read The Mirror Of Her Dreams.  This is a much better
book than the Covenant books were.  The main character is more
believable.  She is a woman who has problems believing in herself.
He doesn't need a disease like leprosy to get the point of the
character across, she is an ordinary girl.  All she lacks is self
confidence.  She is more believable to the reader and a more
sympathetic character.

The world presented in this book is not at all like The Land.  It is
also more believable.  It is a quasi-medieval world in which mirrors
perform strange functions.  The setting makes sense and is a vital
part of the story.

The thing that really makes this series better than the Covenant
series is the plot.  Donaldson is still verbose, but in this case it
leads somewhere.  Things actually happen in this book.  The reader
spends less time having a love-hate relationship with the main
character and more time getting involved with what turns out to be
an exciting story.

Another advantage this story has is the believability of supporting
characters.  There are many characters that act in human ways.  The
treatment of King Joyse, and what's-his-name (the one who should be
her boyfriend; I'll remember it eventually) shows very real and very
human characterizations.  The people of The Land existed.  These
live.

All in all, The Mirror of her Dreams is a much better book than the
Covenant series, and I can't wait until the rest of the series comes
out.

Paul Markowitz
seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_aprm
bitnet: ins_aprm at jhuvms
arpanet: paul@hopkins-eecs-bravo.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 06:58:10 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

A thought: for Covenant to prove the Land to be real, he could have
done the following:

1) When in the Land, do some long mathematical calculation (i.e. e
   to 100 places and then memorize the last 5).
2) When in the "real" world, repeat the calculation and see if the
   result is the same.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 15:45:47 GMT
From: khudson@hawk (Urlord)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>A thought: for Covenant to prove the Land to be real, he could have
>done the following:
>
>1) When in the Land, do some long mathematical calculation (i.e. e
>   to 100 places and then memorize the last 5).
>2) When in the "real" world, repeat the calculation and see if the
>   result is the same.

This would not have worked.  When you do calculations on paper the
actual figuring of the numbers is done in the mind.  If you do them
with some form of a calculator, the techniques the calculator uses
are the same that the mind uses.  Covenant was worried that the Land
was all in his mind: a sign that he was going mad. Therefore any
calculations that he did in the Land would be done in his mind, the
same place that calculations are done in the "real" world.  He would
have gotten the same answer in either place.  Besides how can he be
sure that any calculations done in the "real" world are the correct
ones :^).

Kevin Hudson
UUCP: wanginst!ulowell!khudson@hawk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 05:58:24 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Donaldson: Anyone actually READ MOHD?

We've had the TC argument many times now and mostly what we
determine is that taste is unfathomable.  SInce I started this
thing, could I repeat my orginal question:

Has anyone read _The Mirror of Her Dreams_, and if so, what did they
think of it?

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 17:54:26 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

khudson@hawk writes:
> ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>1) When in the Land, do some long mathematical calculation (i.e. e
>>   to 100 places and then memorize the last 5).

   You shouldn't go to 100 places (unless you have photographic
memory or something) -- it's a real pain and you'll probably mess up
whether in the real world or an imaginary one.  15 is more
reasonable.

>>2) When in the "real" world, repeat the calculation and see if the
>>   result is the same.
> This would not have worked.  When you do calculations on paper the
> actual figuring of the numbers is done in the mind.  If you do
> them with some form of a calculator, the techniques the calculator
> uses are the same that the mind uses.  Covenant was worried that
> the Land was all in his mind: a sign that he was going mad.
> Therefore any calculations that he did in the Land would be done
> in his mind, the same place that calculations are done in the
> "real" world.  He would have gotten the same answer in either
> place.

   If you're dreaming, it's likely that things which will seem right
during the dream (and thus the calculations you do there) will
actually be wrong, and you'll notice this because when you wake up
you will be sane(r) and do them right in the real world (assuming
you don't mess up).  Also, if you do the calculations on paper (as
most people will have to for numbers more than a couple of digits
long), the numbers will stay as they are on real paper (which stores
them independently of how good your memory is) but will mutate on
imaginary paper, thus causing the results of your calculation to
come out wrong in the dream-world, whereas you have a fairly good
chance of getting them right in the real world.  If both worlds are
real this problem will not occur, and the results will likely agree.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
lucius@tardis.harvard.edu
seismo!tardis!lucius
lucius@borax.lcs.mit.edu
seismo!borax!lucius

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 87 23:28:44 GMT
From: victorr@copper.TEK.COM (Victor Riley)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

    We have been discussing the writing of Stephen Donaldson,
especially the Covenant series, for some time and it appears most
people either really like the stories or really hated them.  I
myself liked them.  For those that didn't like the stories, have you
tried reading his mystery novel "The Man Who Killed His Brother"?
It was written under his alias Reed Stephens in 1980.

    Now a question to those that have connections with publishers.
Does anyone have any firm dates as to when Donaldson will release
the third trilogy in the TC series?  I talked with him a few years
back at a sci-fi convention about the next trilogy and he gave me
vague ideas about the story line but no release dates.

Victor Riley
Tektronix CASE Division
tektronix!copper!victorr

------------------------------

Date: 10-Feb-1987 1138
From: roberts%utrtsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Nigel Roberts, TSC Utrecht)
Subject: Mordant's Need

I just finished _The Mirror of her Dreams_, which is a hardback
containing the first two books of Stephen Donaldson's new trilogy
_Mordant's Need_.

I found it to be full of original ideas, but it seems to me that the
plot moves very slowly until the end of each book when there's a
dramatic cliff- hanger. This slow-buildup, dramatic gesture, slow
buildup, even more dramatic gesture reminds me of a musical form,
though I don't remember what it's called.

It's obviously a book which demands re-reading.

Anyone know when the concluding volume will come out?

Nigel Roberts
Utrecht, The Netherlands

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 01:50:30 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

I am capable of getting the places 96 to 100 of e if I use a pencil
and paper and take quite some time to do it.  I cannot do it in my
head, and I doubt very much that Covenant could.

I can imagine being in the Land.  I can imagine meeting giants, I
can imagine battles, etc... but I cannot actually come up with a
correct answer from an attempt to imagine doing a calculation that,
if really done, would require the use of a great deal of time and a
paper and pencil.

If Covenant had done this, and gotten a correct answer, the
correctness of the answer would have shown that he actually had a
pencil and paper and did a real calculation, and didn't just imagine
it.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 17:05:17 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Donaldson

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>I can imagine being in the Land.  I can imagine meeting giants, I
>can imagine battles, etc... but I cannot actually come up with a
>correct answer from an attempt to imagine doing a calculation that,
>if really done, would require the use of a great deal of time and a
>paper and pencil.
>
>If Covenant had done this, and gotten a correct answer, the
>correctness of the answer would have shown that he actually had a
>pencil and paper and did a real calculation, and didn't just
>imagine it.

The human mind is quite capable of performing the kind of
calculation you refer to, without external assistance.  Most people
do not have access to this ability, but there are some (e.g., idiot
savants) who do.  In particular, doing it on imaginary pencil and
paper requires only an eidetic memory.  Another possibility is that
one has seen the answer worked out somewhere, and just remembers it.
(How many people have *never* seen 100 digits of e?)

Clearly, what Covenant experienced in the Land was not an ordinary
dream.  Given its extraordinary nature, use of mental capacities not
normally available to him is quite possible.  I will agree that this
test, if successful, provides evidence of the reality of the Land;
but not very strong evidence.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 05:29:48 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP!

  First of all, where did you all go? Either my machine is no longer
getting postings from this newsgroup, or you guys have all taken a
vacation.
  Anyway, has anyone out there read any LeGuin? Did you like it? Or
did it seem to you that her books are at the 11 to 14 year-old
level? I am presently reading _The_Dispossessed_, and it seems more
like a hard-core SF treatment of sociology and human relations in
general (with physics -- confused with math a lot in the story --
thrown in too). It reads like a lecture for junior high students, is
full of blatantly obvious "symbolism" that is pounded through the
readers thick skull, and generally insults the reader's
intelligence.
  It is also a very trite story. The hero is a typical juvenile SF
hero also: "Oh, nobody understands me; I'm just so Unique..."
  If any of you are still out there, I'd like to hear some of your
opinions of this rather famous and lauded fantasy and SF writer. I
have only read her Wizard of Earthsea "trilogy" before, and have to
judge by that and Dispossessed.  The Wizard series seemed to me to be
aimed at an even younger audience. What's the story, huh?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 22:39:28 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

Well, LeGuin's books are all concerned with psychology and such
things.  I don't find that immature (in fact, I'm willing to defend
the thesis that the tendency of "main-line" SF to ignore psychology
and other personal things is one of the reasons it appeals to
adolescents).

Try _The Lathe of Heaven_.  This is, in my opinion, one of the top
four or five SF novels ever written.

Remember, too, that Earthsea is quite deliberately juvenile.  And if
you really want a fight, try _Always Coming Home_.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 22:35:55 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP!

The Wizard series were definitely written and marketed as juveniles,
although, like some of Heinlein's juveniles, they were better than
many writer's adult books.

In my personal opinion, LeGuin's best work by far is THE LEFT HAND
OF DARKNESS.  This opinion is shared by many people in the SF
community, as the book got both the Hugo and the Nebula awards.  You
will probably find this one much more adult than THE DISPOSSESSED.
Also very good are ROCANNAN'S WORLD and CITY OF ILLUSIONS.  She also
has several beautifully gem-like short stories that are worth
reading, among them "Winter's King", "The Day Before the
Revolution", and "Semley's Necklace" (which is the introduction to
ROCANNAN'S WORLD, but stands beautifully by itself.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 87 0911-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #65
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - Social Attitudes (2 msgs) &
                            New Tekumel Mailing List &
                            Business in SF (2 msgs) & 
                            UFO's (2 msgs) &
                            The Challenger Center & 
                            Convention Notice

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Feb 87 14:02:20-CST
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: sf & social attitudes

Well, my reaction to booth@princeton is that she has a grossly
stereotyped idea of what sf is about.  Most of the sf I read has a
cautionary message to it rather than a "full steam ahead at any
cost" attitude she describes.  (Of course I haven't read Analog in a
long time, and from what I hear, perhaps that's what Heather Booth
has been reading to get this assumption.)

It is also debatable whether it is entirely bad to question
religion, as she suggests.  If the cost of keeping society safe and
tranquil is having everyone fear the wrath of god unthinkingly, I'm
not sure I want any part of it.

There is some truth in her message however, about placing undue
faith in technology.  One need only consider Star Wars or the space
shuttle.  It is reminiscent to me of some psychological theory I
heard somewhere that people have little feel for high & low
probabilities.  The chances of a missile-proof defense shield are so
remote, yet many people convince themselves that as long as a slight
probability for it is there, it means we can do it.  "Incredibly
unlikely" becomes merely "possible" then "feasible" when it comes to
blue skies attitudes towards technology.  I think the "man on the
street" has no comprehension of just how complicated many modern
devices are, and so ignores it and just assumes they will work, much
as we ignore figures like a trillion dollar deficit.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 19:25:11 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: sf & social attitudes

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>Most of the sf I read has a cautionary message to it rather than a
>"full steam ahead at any cost" attitude...

Yeah.  Even in most of the tripe-ridden (poorly written) "space
adventure" stories, there is usually some warning about reliance on
technology or jingoism or political power running amuck that's used
as the basis of the conflict for the story.

>It is also debatable whether it is entirely bad to question
>religion, as she suggests.  If the cost of keeping society safe and
>tranquil is having everyone fear the wrath of god unthinkingly, I'm
>not sure I want any part of it.

It's my belief that the *answer* to the questioning-of-religion
issue lies so at the heart of the asker's theology that it becomes
an illogical debate.  Anyone who believes that "My religion is the
only valid one; believe in *this* or go to Hell" will, to maintain
spiritual integrity, have to challenge the questioning of religion.
No one challenges religion like an agnostic; no one defends religion
like a True Believer.  It's part of each one's spiritual identity
and *I* don't expect them to change away from their individual
theological stance to suit me.  As long as holders of any viewpoint
don't insist I share it (legal enforcement or censure), I'm
satisfied.

>There is some truth in her message however, about placing undue
>faith in technology.  One need only consider Star Wars or the space
>shuttle...

Except that the disaster of a year ago has tempered this
dramatically.  I don't think that unthinking support of SDI is all
that widespread.  Anyone who actively reads Science Fiction would
cast a jaundiced eye on blythe belief in technology, anyhow.

Kris Stephens,
(408-746-6047)
Amdahl Corporation
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 00:32:15 GMT
From: mmm!allen@rutgers.edu (Kurt Allen)
Subject: New Mailing List about Fantasy World Of Tekumel

Interested in Magic, Adventure, and Exotic Alien Cultures?
Interested in the the fantasy world of Tekumel, as described by the
2 fantasy books _Man_of_Gold, and _FlameSong_, and the gaming system
_Empire_of_the_Petal_Throne ?  Interested in a world rich in
culture, magic, and ancient technological marvels ? Then you might
be interested in a new Tekumel mailing list I am starting, Please
read on.

Currently information about Tekumel is distributed via a small
fanzine called the "The Imperial Courier". The writers are old time
Tekumelers and new people knowledgeable about the world of Tekumel.
It is totally devoted to information regarding the fantasy world of
Tekumel.

With the express permission of the publishers, I would like to
circulate an electronic copy of the courier via a mailing list to
interested parties. There will of course be no charge for being on
the mailing list.  If you are such a party then please drop me a
mail message, or reasonable facsimile, at

    ihnp4!mmm!allen

requesting to get on the mailing list. If there is sufficient
interest the first issue should be out in approximately 2-4 weeks.

Kurt Allen
3M Center
ihnp4!mmm!allen

P.S. Yes, I am affiliated with Tekumel games, I game there
routinely, No, I have never made a drop of money from these guys,
and I have no plans to make any money from this.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 87  9:42:59 EST
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: Business in SF

Here's some more business in sf suggestions:

"The Silent Eyes of Time", by Algis Budrys, uses (and shows)
high-level corporate types in action in a (to me) believable) way.
I'm re-reading this in Terry Carr's YEAR'S BEST SF anthology (number
4 or 5, I think...); it originally appeared in F&SF -- and I thought
this was supposed to be part of a novel (c'mon, A.J.)!

That one stirred up some more memories.  What about all those
stirring tales of those entrepreneuring engineers in the
Triplanetary stories, or whatever they were -- those two lovable
lunks who invented the power beams, and figured out those power beam
grids on Mars, and lord knows what else...their name escapes me,
including the author.

More to the point, how about Heinlein's TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, esp.
the tale of the brother and sister.  Or Theodore Sturgeon stories
like "Brownshoes" and "Occam's Scalpel".  John Brunner novels like
STAND ON ZANZIBAR. Phillip K.  Dick.

Also, I'd recommend John. D. MacDonald, in his non-sf.

Daniel Dern
ddern@ccb.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 February 1987, 14:24:33 EST
From: "Richard P. King"  <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Image of Businessmen in SF

In Cordwainer Smith's _Norstrilia_, the planet named in the title is
inhabited by farmers who gather & refine a substance called stroon
from the coats of peculiarly mutated sheep.  Stroon is the longevity
drug, so these farmers are among richest men in the universe.  Our
hero, Roderick Frederick Ronald Arnold William McArthur McBan CLI,
is such a farmer, and, as the owner of one of these farms, qualifies
as a businessman.  In fact, through a manipulation of the stroon
futures market, he becomes the very richest man in the galaxy.  He's
also a very nice guy, who later in the book has some interesting
adventures on & under old Earth.

Richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 87 20:33:51 GMT
From: 52194052%NMSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: government coverup of UFO'S

                UFO's (Unidentified Flying Objects)

  Late last year prople in New Mexico were treated to an unusual
sight in the night sky.  Many people observed the bright comet- like
object as it burned upon re-entry of the earth's atmosphere.  This
object was identified by NORAD (North American Air Defense Command)
as a Soviet rocket booster.  Again on Monday night of the next week
U.S. citizens across the south reported an unusual sighting.  This
object was not identified by NORAD, but an air traffic controller in
Tennessee said "It was probably a meteor."  Some reports claimed
that the object was a flying saucer.  Throughout history there have
been thousands of far more dramatic observations of UFO's, and some
of the most provocative have been right here in New Mexico.
Evidence suggests that some UFO's are alien spacecraft.
   There are some that do not agree with this particular analysis on
UFO origin.  First, they have examples of intentional hoaxes
perpetrated by UFO enthusiasts.  One example is the list of
"Astronaut UFO Sightings", a collection of data listed in the book
"Edge of Reality" by Dr.  J.  Allen Hyneck.  Hyneck has after more
careful research, disavowed the list. Of sixteen items on the list,
most have been shown to be cases where astronauts were quoted out of
context or cases of outright fraud.  All of the items on the list
were in some way discredited by James Oberg who works for NASA
(National Aeronautics and Space Administration), in his article
"Astronaut UFO Sightings".  Second, anti-UFO-ists say that there is
no physical evidence to support the hypothesis that UFO's are alien
vehicles; since UFO's have been studied for an extended period of
time, there should be some physical evidence. Finally they say most
sightings have been fully explained as "normal" occurences such as
electro- magnetic field effects, weather balloons, and the like.
      While it is logically valid to hold this point of view given
the type of information considered thus far, there is information
that has been ignored up until this point.  For over thirty years,
government agencies such as the FBI, CIA, NSA (National Security
Agency) and DIA (Defense Intelligence agency) have actively
researched UFO's but because of national security considerations not
all their findings have been released.  ( One national newspaper ran
the headline: "If there are no UFO's, Why All the Secrecy?" ) There
have been over of 12,618 reports turned over to the Air Force for
investigation with 701 remaining unexplained.  IF JUST ONE OF THESE
REPORTS CONSTITUTES A SIGHTING OF AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL VEHICLE THE
IMPLICATIONS WOULD BE PROFOUND.  Even skeptics admit that some UFO
sightings are puzzling.  One example of this exists in a CIA
document written by Hector Quintanella Jr. (the figurehead of Air
Force skepticism) relating to an incident observed by a Socorro
police officer.

The document stated:

   " There is no doubt that Lonnie Zamora saw an object which left
   quite an impression on him.  There is also no question about
   Zamora's reliability. He is a serious officer, a pillar of his
   church, and a man well versed in recognizing airborne vehicles in
   his area. He is puzzled by what he saw and frankly, so are we.
   This is the best documented case on record, and still we have
   been unable, in spite of thorough investigation, to find the
   vehicle or other stimulus that scared Zamora to the point of
   panic."*

Quintanella was head of Air Force "Project Blue Book" at the time
the document was compiled.  In another collection of 1018 incidents
reported by at least two observers, 3.3 per cent (41) involved
episodes where humanoids were seen with the vehicle or vehicles.
Forty two cases included the observation of a landing.  In addition,
some notable people were recently asked to indicate where aliens
would land and why.  Nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman and Bruce
Maccabee, a physicist specializing in laser optics, picked New
Mexico because of the proximity of White Sands Proving Ground and
since New Mexico is the location of the first atomic bomb test site.

* more on this in the book "Clear Intent".

bibliography;
    Clear Intent: Fawcett / Greenwood
    Paranormal Borderlands of Science:  Kendrick Frazier
    Space  Time  Transients and  Unusual  Events
    Persinger / Lafreniere
    Las cruces Sun News ": Nov 11 86 1b
    Omni (magazine): May 86
    The Book of Lists":  Wallechinsky / Eallace / Wallace

MIKEY

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 20:43:22 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: government coverup of UFO'S

From: 52194052%NMSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>For over thirty years, government agencies such as the FBI, CIA,
>NSA (National Security Agency) and DIA (Defense Intelligence
>agency) have actively researched UFO's but because of national
>security considerations not all their findings have been released.
>( One national newspaper ran the headline: "If there are no UFO's,
>Why All the Secrecy?" ) There have been over of 12,618 reports
>turned over to the Air Force for investigation with 701 remaining
>unexplained.  IF JUST ONE OF THESE REPORTS CONSTITUTES A SIGHTING
>OF AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL VEHICLE THE IMPLICATIONS WOULD BE PROFOUND.

Oh so true. It has been said that if you watch a good portion of the
sky for a single hour every night for a year, you have a near
certainty of spotting some kind of UFO. But the government won't
admit it.
  There are many documented cases of UFO's hundreds of yards long
that have hovered 200 feet above the ground in the same spot for
more than an hour, being spotted by everyone in the town, and
located and triangulated on radar, yet still we do not want to face
this. I personally saw two UFO's one night a few years back. Nothing
spectacular: just 2 red lights *very* high up that managed to go
from horizon to horizon in about 8 seconds. They were in tandem
formation.They were also witnessed by my brother and my father.
  Two nights later, my father saw two more travel the same path
abreast of each other, and then 3 in tandem come in and join them
from a right-angle course.
  If you want to be convinced that UFO's are real, read
_Aliens_in_the_Skies by John G. Fuller. It leaves little room for
doubt.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 17:54:53 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Challenger Center for Space Science Education

On the anniversary of the Challenger accident, the families of those
aboard announced the Challenger Center as a continuation of the work
left undone by the tragedy.

The Center is the collective name for a series (the first two will
be in Washington DC and Houston) of station sites and connecting
infrastructure aimed at using space as a means to promote education
in the sciences, math and communications.

Any classroom in the country will be able to hook into the centers'
computer system as an interactive source.  Teachers and students at
the station sites will live and work in a simulated space station
environment.

I pass this information (that many of you have undoubtedly already
seen) on, because I will be functioning as the Center's interface
with the various computer networks.  Right now, that's only
Compuserve and (with my employers' cooperation) Usenet, but
hopefully guest accounts on other nets can be set up soon.

I solicit your ideas for the center, help in passing the word, (and
help in getting in touch with other nets...anyone a sysop?)

Let's keep the usenet discussion on sci.space.

Thanks

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 17:53:35 GMT
From: bnl!scott@rutgers.edu (james scott)
Subject: sf/who/trek con



ICON 6 will be held on March 27, 28, 29 at The State University of
NY at Stony Brook, Long Island It is NYs largest SF con.  This years
guests include David Brin, Colin Baker, and a Trek guest (probably a
Saavik).

Trek I, II, III, and IV will be amoung the dozen or so movies.
There will be an extensive science track including scientists from
Brookhaven National Lab, Jet Propulsion Lab, Grumman, Stony Brook
Covering a large array of topics (genetics - ie uplifting, Space
travel, Quasars, and exobiology).

Write to ICON 6, PO BOX 550, STONY BROOK, NY 11790 for more info.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 87 0928-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #66
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Hogan (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 03:18:43 GMT
From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

rlk@athena.MIT.EDU writes:
>One problem: the kamikaze trait would tend to get bred out of the
>population.  The folks who could avoid this kamikaze role would
>tend to have more offspring.

No, I don't think so, for several reasons.

First, we are talking about an N+5 animals competing for N
resources, so breeding enough probably isn't a problem.

Second, the tribes with kamikazes will dominate the tribes without
kamikazes, (i.e., evolutionary pressure to be a kamikaze).

Third, kamikazes probably wouldn't be a genetic trait anyway, i.e.,
you don't need kamikazes to raise kamikazes.

Fourth, kamikazes could always be the elderly, who have no more
breeding potential.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  srt@ucla
UUCP:  {cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 10:45:35 GMT
From: aber-cs!chm@rutgers.edu (Corinne Morris)
Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>I can't see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of
>there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them

How about: the smartest N critters do the best at collecting &
hiding food; they all probably go a little hungry till the 5 weakest
die of starvation or disease.

Corinne Morris

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 00:56:02 GMT
From: abbott@dean.Berkeley.EDU (+Mark Abbott)
Subject: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy:  error about evolution...

Sorry, but I don't agree.  Aggression and predation are 2 separate
things, ask any ethologist.  Aggression is the imposition of one's
will over another through violence or threatened violence.
Predation is the killing and consumption of another creature.  As
someone else stated before, aggression is normally seen in
competition for resources.  Predation is the utilization of
resources.  When an animal preys on another no signals of threat or
intimidation are given, the prey is taken with a minimum of effort.
When an animal aggresses against another it almost always involves
substantial energy put into threats, postures, and only occasionally
physical violence.

Another way of looking at it: take Hogan's setup - no predators so
one common means of selection on earth is ruled out.  Now
competition for resources will become even more important than it is
here.  So, how to win in the gathering resources game?  I see two
likely strategies: 1. become more efficient in gathering/utilizing
resources, 2. prevent others from having access to those resources.
Picture Hogan's idyllic setup.  Here we have a herd of herbivores,
living completely peacefully no aggression, no outside threats.  All
of the females share all of the males equally when mating season
comes around.  Through random mutation we get one female who is
slightly agitated when she sees other pairs mating.  As a result,
she disrupts matings within her sight or, in other words, impairs
the other females access to males.  She has an obvious advantage
when competing for males.  Many of the other females will have
disrupted matings resulting in fewer successful conceptions and
therefore fewer offspring.  Our mutation, on the other hand, has
none of her matings disrupted and therefore has more successful
conceptions and more offspring.  Since her daughters are likely to
carry her mutation, which will also give them an advantage, the
trait will probably fix.  Aggression becomes a trait in the
population without any influence from predators.


Mark Abbott
abbott@dean.BERKELEY.EDU (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 04:13:41 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: poisonous animals (was non-aggression ...)

Like many biological ideas in SF, the idea of an animal being
poisonous in order to avoid predation has parallels in Earth
biology.  Example: there are some butterflies which create a
poisonous alkaloid in their wings.  They are not bothered by it but
it will poison any bird which tries to eat it.  These butterflies
have bright, distinctive patterns on their wings so that the birds
can identify them and steer clear.  There are also other butterflies
which copy these patterns but not the poisons.  They are also
avoided (for the most part) by the predatory birds.

This raises a question about these poisonous animals: Why didn't
they put the poison in some part of their bodies (like the
butterflies' wings) where it would not bother them, but which
predators would be unable to avoid?

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 02:07:47 GMT
From: 3comvax!michaelm@rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: poisonous animals (was non-aggression ...)

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Like many biological ideas in SF, the idea of an animal being
>poisonous in order to avoid predation has parallels in Earth
>biology.  Example: there are some butterflies which create a
>poisonous alkaloid in their wings.  They are not bothered by it but
>it will poison any bird which tries to eat it.  {...}
>
>This raises a question about these poisonous animals: Why didn't
>they put the poison in some part of their bodies (like the
>butterflies' wings) where it would not bother them, but which
>predators would be unable to avoid?

The problem with this is the qualifier "... but which predators
would be unable to avoid."  Many birds have learned to pick off the
wings of poisonous butterflies and eat the less poisonous body.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 18:26:50 GMT
From: ahh@h.cc.purdue.edu (Brent L. Woods)
Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

ain@s.cc.purdue.edu (Patrick White) writes:
>dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>>  Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how
>>thoroughly it colors our outlook?) world of predators and
>>aggressors, can't see any way for these critters to resolve the
>>problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5-
>>animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited
>>vision than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas?
>>Remember, physical violence is Right Out.
>
> Perhaps they evolved intelligence as a way of resource arbitration.

   Right, Pat.

   Seriously, I think a better theory (yes, the better theory
theory) is that intelligence evolved as an aid to keeping an
organism intact, and, therefore, alive.  Consider: The least little
cut or puncture wound would result in (the possibility of) the
mixing of the contents of both circulatory systems.  Wouldn't it
just ruin your day to fatally poison yourself just by cutting
yourself shaving?  Intelligence would be a pro-survival trait,
since, in this environment, you can't afford to learn from
experience.  The experience would, like as not, kill you the first
time.  An expensive lesson, yes?  Intelligence would enable an
animal to see another of its kind die as a result of brushing up
against a thorn bush and say, "Hmmm.  *I* better not do that.  It
would be bad."  So, a more-intelligent-than-average animal manages
to live long enough to breed while his stupider cousin blunders into
a bush and dies the one true death (that's life in the wild kingdom,
eh?)

Brent Woods
USENET:   {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM
PHONE:  (317) 743-6445
USNAIL: 500 Russell St., Apt. 19
        West Lafayette, IN  47906

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 22:56:32 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Re: poisonous animals (was non-aggression ...)

michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes:
>dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>Like many biological ideas in SF, the idea of an animal being
>>poisonous in order to avoid predation has parallels in Earth
>>biology.  Example: there are some butterflies which create a
>>poisonous alkaloid in their wings.  They are not bothered by it
>>but it will poison any bird which tries to eat it.  {...}
>>
>>This raises a question about these poisonous animals: Why didn't
>>they put the poison in some part of their bodies (like the
>>butterflies' wings) where it would not bother them, but which
>>predators would be unable to avoid?
>
>The problem with this is the qualifier "... but which predators
>would be unable to avoid."  Many birds have learned to pick off
>the wings of poisonous butterflies and eat the less poisonous body.

This just shows that for every defense mechanism a prey species
comes up with, some predator species will find a way around it.  I
would expect similar type mechanisms to occur on Hogan's planet
(whatever it was).

I don't read Hogan's books.  The few books of his that I've read
tend to be about as dry as a scientific journal.  Characterizations
are nil, at least the human characters.  The aliens seem to be more
interesting than the humans.  (I've also noticed this about James
White books although his aren't nearly as dry.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 07:03:48 GMT
From: husc2!chiaraviglio@rutgers.edu (lucius)
Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>   But that's the whole point! The factor that prevents predation
> also prevents ANY form of aggression.

   Not ANY form of aggression.  See below.

>   That's not what he says at all. Listen very carefully:
>
>   James P. Hogan postulates a physical, anatomical rationale for
> the absence of aggression in Minervan animals. Terrestrial animals
> rely on the primary circulatory system (bloodstream) to dispose of
> metabolic wastes.  Hogan's Minervan animals evolved a secondary
> circulatory system for this purpose. Since the contents of this
> secondary system were toxic, no predator could survive an attempt
> to make a meal of any animal having this system.  Over millions of
> years, the contents of this waste-disposal system became more and
> more concentrated. Predatory species, which had barely gotten
> started anyway, vanished entirely.
>
>   The secondary system also inhibited non-predatory aggression.
> Any injury, however slight, carried a major risk of contaminating
> the primary circulatory system with concentrated wastes. Physical
> aggression was selected out, since even minor injuries would kill
> BOTH parties. Bone and horn guard plates were formed over joints
> and other vulnerable areas to minimize the chances of accidental
> injury.

   While this rules out hand-to-hand (or the equivalent) combat, it
does not do ANYTHING to rule out aggression by means of projectile
weapons (no chance of the aggressor injuring itself by making such
an attack, although normal chances of the aggressor being injured by
return fire from the victim) or treachery (put poison in
competitor's food, release poison gas when upwind of a victim,
arrange for the victim to have an accident, etc.; no more risky to
aggressor than projectile combat).

>   Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how
> thoroughly it colors our outlook?) world of predators and
> aggressors, can't see any way for these critters to resolve the
> problem of there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5-
> animals-want-to-use-them, but that may be more a matter of limited
> vision than fundamental impossibility. Anybody have ideas?
> Remember, physical violence is Right Out.

   Well, cooperation and self-imposed limits on reproduction are
possible, but it seems that as long as aggression is possible most
life-forms will develop it.  I will admit that Hogan's model of
Minervan life makes aggression more difficult, but not impossible.

Lucius Chiaraviglio
lucius@tardis.harvard.edu
seismo!tardis.harvard.edu!lucius

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 02:53:47 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

dml@loral.UUCP (Dave Lewis) writes:
>  Now I, with my background in this dog-eat-dog (see how thoroughly
>it colors our outlook?) world of predators and aggressors, can't
>see any way for these critters to resolve the problem of
>there's-resources-for-N-animals-and-N+5- animals-want-to-use-them,
>but that may be more a matter of limited vision than fundamental
>impossibility. Anybody have ideas? Remember, physical violence is
>Right Out.

If they're intelligent, it's simple: throw rocks.  That's not
physical violence?

BTW, this has problems.  I bet the Minervan critters have *lots* of
odd illnesses which focus on the secondary nervous system.  (1)
They're liable to be susceptible to anabolic bacteria.  (2) Imagine
a bacterium which cuts off the secondary circulation system.  (3)
(a) Cardiac arrest in the heart which pumps the secondary system, or
(b) cramps in the muscles which pump it by peristalsis.

My point is that there's more to go wrong in this system than in ours.

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 16:56:47 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy:  error about
Subject: evolution...

ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes:

>Predatory: "1. of, living by, or characterized by plundering,
>robbing, or exploiting others.  2. living by capturing and feeding
>upon other animals."

Definition 1 is intended to apply only to those in a social
environment; i.e., humans.  Only definition 2 is predation in the
biological sense.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 18:54:45 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy:  error about
Subject: evolution...

>>The only herbivors that we have around to study most definitely
>>evolved in a predator filled environment.  Therefore an argument
>>based on these 'aggressive' herbivores is fallacious.
>
> The amount that the creatures have to worry about predation does
> not correlate with their aggression, as far as I know

It is worth noting that herbivores really ought to be considered
predators.  It is just that their prey is particularly easy to sneak
up on...

> This definition [of predation] is the one of choice for politics
> and non-scientific human relations, but it doesn't cut it for
> biology.  For biology you have to add that it is only that which
> is an attempt to deal with competition.

Similarly, my definition of predation might be a little
non-standard.  But my point remains... Hogan's world wasn't truely
free of aggression.  It's just that the aggression was all directed
towards species that did not resist effectively.  But then, humans
don't prey on species that can resist effectively.  They didn't even
do it when there still were species that could resist effectively.
So how is the selective pressure on the Giants different from those
on humans?  In one regard.  For a Giant, the simple fact of mobility
is a strong indicator that a species ought not be be preyed upon,
because all mobile species on the Giant's planet were effectively
defended.  It could thus plausibly be built in to the Giants that
they only aggress against plants.

Wayne Throop
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 87 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #67
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 00:21 CDT
From: <"FOREST::IWAMOTO%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'Sci-Fi' and more

Hehehehe...I started the whole thing, but I doubt that I will have
the final word in it.  I believe, personally, that there is nothing
wrong in this day and age in referring to what I have loved reading
for the last 20 or so years as Science Fiction, SF, or Sci-Fi (not
Skiffy, since I hadn't heard of this term until just recently).
Actually, I don't care what "insiders" or "outsiders" feel in terms
of the terms (huh??!!).  I know what I am referring to and anybody
talking to me will know what I am talking about, so I tend to just
leave it as that.  Those who don't know, whether they be those who
cringe when I say "Sci-Fi" or those who have never enjoyed
SF/Fantasy/whatever, can be classified as effete snobs or gloriously
ignorant people.  Whatever, I know what I like and will continue
trying to get the most out of it.

Now on to better and bigger things...

I have, for some time, been trying to think of books/stories which I
could use to introduce the wonderful world of SF/Fantasy to those
who have never considered reading any of it (or just never got
around to finding one to read).  To this end, I would like to
solicit suggestions from all of you wonderful (well, _I_ think
you're wonderful) people as to what you would recommend to
SF-virgins (oops...can I say the "v" word here?).  Mind you, I'm not
looking for books you would consider excellent SF literature.  Dune,
as far as I'm concerned, is a wonderful book, but I'm not sure I
would recommend it to a first-timer.
   Now, we can do this in one of two ways (or maybe even both, since
I'm not sure everybody can figure out how to e-mail directly to me
[I'm not sure I can figure it out]).  The first, obviously, is to
respond directly to SF-LOVERS.  This could just end up overwhelming
poor Saul (but he loves it, right...hehe).  The other, probably more
reasonable method, is to e-mail them directly to me and I will
collate and correlate your responses and post them to SF-LOVERS
after an appropriate time (not to mention also telling you folks to
stop sending me info...).  If you have no problems e-mailing them to
me, please do so.  If you do have problems, I guess we have no
recourse but to send them to Mr. Jaffe.

Thanx in advance.

P.S. No flames, please.  My fireproof suit is still at the cleaners.

Warren M. Iwamoto
Texas Instruments, Inc.
Dallas, TX.
(214) 480-2456 / (214) 437-0823
CSNET: iwamoto%forest@ti-eg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 20:14:30 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage)
Subject: Re: 'SF' versus 'Sci-Fi' [short]

Well, one good thing has come of this discussion.  I have changed my
mind and opened my eyes.  To all the people I have berated for using
the term 'sci fi,' I hereby apologize.

While I still think that what I read is SF and sci fi is pulp, I
will no longer try to impress that view on others.  If you want to
use 'sci fi' to describe decent SF, so be it.  And let's get on with
discussing the stuff instead of naming it!

Thanks for making me think, guys.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 23:59:55 GMT
From: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Does what you are saying here mean that fantasy is just science
>fiction with different physical laws? That's a twist; I've seen
>people argue that science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy (cf.
>Laura above), but the other way around is rare.

The idea that fantasy is just sf with different physical laws is the
fundamental concept behind the "Compleat Enchanter" stories by L.
Sprague deCamp and Fletcher Pratt.  The idea is that magic is a sort
of alternate physics and obeys different physical laws.  I don't
care whether the books are called sf or fantasy or whatever (I sort
of like speculative fiction as a label if we must have one since all
fiction is inherently speculative and this is a less ghetooizing
term) - I just care whether they are interestingly written and
entertaining.  Most good writing doesn't need to be stuffed into
inherently restrictive categories.

Miriam Nadel

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 06:01:32 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

There seems to me really no essential difference between fantasy and
science fiction.  The basic criterion defining either is that the
setting is manufactured and does not correspond to any known real
setting.  SF is by no means restricted to the future, but to
alternate and metaphorical worlds as well.  SF frequently involves
psychic (=magical) powers, as does fantasy.  In the best of both,
the super-science or magical powers are vessels of the story rather
than the main focus in themselves.

Any attempt to divide science fiction soundly from fantasy leaves a
large number of works that are difficult to classify, some of them
deliberately so.  Various works of Zelazny ("A Rose for
Ecclesiastes", the Amber series, "Lord of Light", etc.) straddle the
boundaries squarely, as does much of Moorcock (e.g., "Gloriana",
"Behold the Man"), and Clarke ("The City and the Stars").  Among
other stars of the firmament we should note Phillip K. Dick (esp.
later works), Harlan Ellison, and Frederic Brown.  In a lesser
league, there are Randall Garrett ("Lord Darcy"), Piers Anthony (the
Tarot books, "Incarnations of Immortality") and Jack Chalker ("The
Four Lords of the Diamond", "Soul Rider").  In many cases, one
senses a deliberate intent to break down the imagined barrier
between fantasy and science fiction, which artificially limits the
imagination of the storyteller.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 22:25:01 GMT
From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that
>do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For
>instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and
>suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to
>me.  The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science
>fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships?

   How about an example from the movies? STAR WARS is clearly
fantasy; Lucas himself calls it a "space fantasy", and points up the
fantasy with that fairy-tale opener, "a long, long time ago, in a
galaxy far away". Why a fantasy? The Force, of course. And the
purists can also object to FTL. Add in the fairy-tale plot, and what
else can you call it?
   By contrast, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, from the same
year, is often classed as fantasy, but seems pretty straight SF to
me. Its religious overtones, plus its being based more on the UFO
cult than on the contents of ANALOG, give it a fantasy feeling, but
were there any actual supernatural or fantasy elements? I didn't
spot any.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 00:58:39 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of
> that do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they
> would. For instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science
> fiction, and suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is
> more fantasy to me.  The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they
> are science fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with
> spaceships?

I guess we all have our own definitions.  I'm not too certain where
to put the Dragonrider books, for instance.  If Pern has either a
lower surface gravity or a thicker atmosphere than Earth, I'd put
them in the Science fiction category.  If it is Earth normal, I'd
stick them in the science fantasy category.  Why?  Critters the size
and mass of dragons can't fly under earth conditions.  If the
dragons have a built-in anti-grav (hah!  evolve that!  oops, I
forgot.  They didn't have to.  The earthmen might have done a bit of
genetic engineering) it could move back to fiction.  Fuzzy
distinction, isn't it?  Add in conservation of momentum and
conservation of energy for teleportation.

Let's consider some "classic" SF.  Jules Verne, From the Earth to
the Moon.  Fiction or fantasy?  He ignores acceleration effects, but
i'd really like to let that pass--he didn't have any other mechanism
for getting them into orbit.  He did know that rockets would work,
but couldn't get them to work well enough.

E. E. Smith's Skylark series.  Fantasy.  Ignores acceleration,
relativity, gets too much energy out of a Cu bar, etc.  In the later
stories he runs into some consistency problems because of this.

The Lensman series.  Fiction.  At least he gives a rationale.

Poul Anderson, Operation Chaos.  I don't really know.  Witches and
werewolves and conservation of mass.  I'd really like to say
fiction, just because.

Drat.  I think I've managed to talk myself out of my definition.
Probably an artificial distinction, anyway.  I might recognize some
sort of shading-- hard science fiction, science fiction, science
fantasy, fantasy.  This looks like some sort of 2d graph, with
technology along one axis and rigor along another.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 18:22:42 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>There seems to me really no essential difference between fantasy
>and science fiction. [...]
>
>Any attempt to divide science fiction soundly from fantasy leaves a
>large number of works that are difficult to classify, some of them
>deliberately so.  Various works of [...]

Great list, Tim!  I've been thinking that perhaps we're describing a
spectrum of stories.  If "pure" fantasy is Primary Red and "pure"
science fiction is Primary Blue, then we can have a smooth shift of
Red-through-Magenta-to-Blue, and we should be able to make note of
examples at each extreme to go with your list of stories more or
less at the Magenta mix.  How about "Lord of the Rings" as Red and
"Starship Troopers" as Blue?  There is practically no science and
technology in "Lord of the Rings" and it abounds with magic and
other arcana.  There is speculation on the future of humanity, our
technology and politics, and alien races which *might* actually
exist, in "Starship Troopers", but no magic or occult/arcane
components.

So while we have some commonality, as you pointed out, there *are*
some essential differences *at the extremes* of each.

Kristopher Stephens
(408-746-6047)
Amdahl Corporation
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 08:09:21 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>Let's consider some "classic" SF.  Jules Verne, From the Earth to
>the Moon.  Fiction or fantasy?  He ignores acceleration effects,
>but i'd really like to let that pass--he didn't have any other
>mechanism for getting them into orbit.  He did know that rockets
>would work, but couldn't get them to work well enough.

   It is interesting to notice that some things about Verne's story
were closer to the real thing than just about anything subsequent.

>E. E. Smith's Skylark series.  Fantasy.  Ignores acceleration,
>relativity, gets too much energy out of a Cu bar, etc.  In the
>later stories he runs into some consistency problems because of
>this.
>
>The Lensman series.  Fiction.  At least he gives a rationale.

  This shows up the impossibility of drawing a clear-cut boundary,
and illustrates why sf is a sub-species of fantasy literature. There
is a difference between the "science" in Skylark and the Lensman
series? Only if one uses a microscope or something. (By the way, the
Lensman stuff also ignores relativity, acceleration and common
sense. I really don't see much if any difference.)

>an artificial distinction, anyway.  I might recognize some sort of
>shading-- hard science fiction, science fiction, science fantasy,
>fantasy.  This looks like some sort of 2d graph, with technology
>along one axis and rigor along another.

  Since I have just got through explaining why "Contact" (which is
hard sf) is less scientifically rigorous and less plausible than
"The Lord of the Rings", I wonder how much any of this makes any
kind of sense.

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 22:33:53 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for
>instance.  If Pern has either a lower surface gravity or a thicker
>atmosphere than Earth, I'd put them in the Science fiction
>category.  If it is Earth normal, i'd stick them in the science
>fantasy category.  Why?  Critters the size and mass of dragons
>can't fly under earth conditions.  If the dragons have a built-in
>anti-grav (hah!  evolve that!  oops, i forgot.  they didn't have
>to.  the earthmen might have done a bit of genetic engineering) it
>could move back to fiction.  Fuzzy distinction, isn't it?  Add in
>conservation of momentum and conservation of energy for
>teleportation.

You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern.  The
celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous.
Also, how did the threads get from the Red Star (really a planet) to
Pern?  I can only conclude that McCaffrey did not really care that
the laws of physics were violated in her book.  This is not to say
that I didn't enjoy the books.  I did, but I had to treat many
aspects of them as fantasy.

>Poul Anderson, Operation Chaos.  I don't really know.  Witches and
>werewolves and conservation of mass.  I'd really like to say
>fiction, just because.

"Operation Chaos" belongs to a category of fantasy which allows
magic but makes it comply to certain scientifically established laws
(as well as some mythologic laws: no magic works in or near a
church).  Other stories in the category are Larry Niven's "The Magic
Goes Away" and "The Magic May Return" collections.  Other fantasies
don't bother with laws or allow virtually anything (cf "Her
Majesty's Wizard" (I think; author's name forgotten) where the
magician may do anything if he can compose a poem to describe it).

>Drat.  I think I've managed to talk myself out of my definition.
>Probably an artificial distinction, anyway.  I might recognize some
>sort of shading-- hard science fiction, science fiction, science
>fantasy, fantasy.  This looks like some sort of 2d graph, with
>technology along one axis and rigor along another.

I'm not sure that there is a good way to distinguish between Science
Fiction and Fantasy.  Even using the intention of the author is not
sufficient.  Often, an author will deliberately violate well
established laws of nature, admits that he has done so, and does not
come up with any explanation of why this violation occurred.  For
example, in "City", Clifford Simak uses a Lamarkian mechanism
(inheritance of acquired traits) to explain a change in dogs.  He
admits that it violates what we know of heredity but does not
explain how he got around it.  (I consider most of what Simak writes
to be fantasy despite what he intended.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 87 0857-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #68
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:

                Books - Heinlein (11 msgs) & Kurtz &
                        LeGuin & Post-Holocaust Books (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 05:03:24 GMT
From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

hobie@sq.UUCP writes:
>A Andrews (arlan@inuxm.UUCP) writes:
>>Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute
>>worst;
>
>Really?  I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious
>novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept
>getting WORSE).  Maybe you never read that one.

   Sounds like neither of you have read I WILL FEAR NO EVIL. I don't
think any other Heinlein book can match it for sheer wretchedness.
TNOTB is readable for us true Heinlein fanatics because of all the
in jokes, and the cameo appearances by characters which are old
favorites from other books. Except for that, though, it's nearly as
bad as IWFNE.  But FRIDAY is good, and is the only book he's
published since TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE that I can give an unqualified
recommendation.

Kayembee

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 05:07:05 GMT
From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

arlan@inuxm.UUCP (A Andrews) writes:
>Sorry to disappoint anyone, but if memory serves at all, then SIASL
>was the earliest, TMIAHM next and FF last of all!  See, you can't
>really date Heinlein's works by fads of political theory.

   Actually, the order is STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND (1961),
FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD (1964), THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS (1966).

Kayembee

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 09:16:08 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Heinlein's books

From:   inuxm!arlan     (Arlan Andrews)
> Sorry to disappoint anyone, but if memory serves at all, then
> SIASL was the earliest, TMIAHM next and FF last of all!  See, you
> can't really date Heinlein's works by fads of political theory.

Not quite. FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD was published in 1964 and THE MOON IS
A HARSH MISTRESS in 1966. Of course, using publication dates to
support arguments of an author's changing ideologies or whatever can
be very suspect, since it doesn't necessarily reflect when (or the
order in which) he wrote them.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 06:11:49 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes:
>Really?  I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious
>novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept
>getting WORSE).

Hmmm, I would have to say either I Will Fear No Evil, or Rocketship
Galileo.  I actually sort of respect TNotB, because he at least
TRIES to deal with the question of what would happen if a bunch of
his standard "dominant" type characters had to live in the same
spaceship.

David Dyer-Bennet
Usenet: ...viper!ddb
Fidonet: Sysop of Fido 14/341 (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 87 04:43:17 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

IWFNE isn't so bad a book.  It was pretty good up until the end,
though the end was so abrupt as to shock me.  It felt as if RAH
decided to just stop the book in the middle, which is a shame.
Maybe he had a deadline?

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 05:48:47 GMT
From: 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

hobie@sq.UUCP  writes:
>A Andrews (arlan@inuxm.UUCP) writes:
>>Of all the RAH books ever done, I thought FRIDAY the absolute
>>worst;
>Really?  I thought "The Number of the Beast" to be the most odious
>novel I have ever experienced (I read maybe 100 pages and it kept
>getting WORSE).  Maybe you never read that one.

*Number of the Beast* should really be regarded as an insider joke.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I laughed my head off over
the last section.  The book could have used some serious editing.  I
have heard it was written while RAH still had a brain tumor.
*Friday* was not all that bad until the last chapter. (No spoilers)
The absolute WORST book by RAH was *I Will Fear No Evil*.  He
adopted his usual preachy tone, but didn't say anything new. (How
many times can you say `sex is great!'?)  Time Enough for Love has
some real problems with its framework, although the short stories (
Man who was too lazy to fail, Tale of the adopted daughter, and The
twins who weren't twins) were good.  And, forgive me for saying so,
*Stranger in a Strange Land* sucked.  The characters were intensely
boring and the message was trite.  (My perception of this may be
colored because I read several of his later books before hand.  By
the time I got to SIASL the`sex is great!'  theme was boring.)  On
the other hand, *Starship Troopers* and *The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress* are ghodlike.  In my opinion, the stock Heinlein novel is
*Puppet Masters* (later stolen by Star Trek as:
Operation:Annhialate!).  It contains the three RAH stock characters
and a fast paced adventure. The moralizing is kept to a minimum.

Harold Feld
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 07:20:49 GMT
From: amdahl!chuck@rutgers.edu (Charles Simmons)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

Some of us suckers who bought "The Number of the Beast" thus helping
it to sell so well, did so because we had respected his past works.
We didn't realize that The Number of the Beast had no redeeming
social value until after we laid down our money.  (I wouldn't mind
seeing a list of numbers telling how many copies of each Heinlein
book had been sold.  I've a sneaking suspicion that 666 didn't sell
as well as previous Heinlein works, and that later Heinlein works
haven't been selling up to par either, because many of Heinlein's
fans have been scared off...)

Chuck

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 02:39:52 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

Sigh.

It's just kind of sad when people fall all over each other coming up
with worse and worse examples of somebody's work.

Personally, I found "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" the most
horrible, disgusting, odious, and boring pile of paper that I have
ever had the hideous misfortune to behold.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 17:45:47 GMT
From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

Well, since this discussion has been going on for a while, I thought
I'd drop my two senses, er, cents worth in...

I have only read two Heinlein novels in my life.  The first was
several years ago when I read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for a
Computer Science course in college.  I thought it was a great book,
and it is still one of my favorites.  For some reason, though, I
never read any more Heinlein until a couple of months ago when I
wanted something to read, so I figured, since Heinlein did such a
good job with TMiaHM, I'd give him another whirl.  Unfortunately for
me, I picked up JOB.

Now, I haven't read The Number of the Beast, or any of the other
Heinlein novels being dragged thorugh the dirt, here.  However, I'm
surprised that noone has had anything caustic to say about Job.
Now, to be fair, I found it rather interesting at first, but it soon
became annoying, and finally preachy and completely unreadable.
When I was done, I found it hard to believe that TMiaHM and Job were
written by the same man.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Fone:  (301)454-8886
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 18:41:56 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU writes:
>And, forgive me for saying so, *Stranger in a Strange Land* sucked.
>The characters were intensly boring and the message was trite.

I just finished rereading SIASL, and I feel that this NEEDS to be
replied to.  It's true that the book was not as exciting as it could
have been, _IF_YOU_ONLY_PAID_ATTENTION_TO_THE_STORY_!  If you looked
behind what was being written and at what Heinlein was trying to
say, the book was awesome.  The organization of the book was
incredible.  The parts the characters played fit perfectly.  No
spoilers here: if you don't see what I'm talking about, reread it
and think about biblical references.  They're so obvious and well
connected that I *have* to assume they were deliberate, which is
something I rarely do.

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 19:01:23 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

Gee, fellas, no one said everyone hates Heinlein.  I rate him as the
best SF writer, period.  He has influenced my life as have few other
persons, merely by sharing his philosophies in the course of telling
his stories.

I enjoyed every other book by RAH, but FRIDAY was the only one in
which a superior person does NOT prevail, and in fact quits by
running off to the frontier without having put up a significant
fight.  I didn't say it was poorly written (although I did not
understand the significance of the detailed discussion of the star
maps), I just said it was the worst--and I explained what I meant,
as discussed in the last sentence.

I have read all of his works, and have at least one edition of each
of them including several first editions.  To my sorrow, I have not
yet met the man whom I respect above all others in our field.  (A
Heinlein hater would not have named a son after him, now, would he?)

Arlan Andrews

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 87 00:36:22 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz

>And what about Rhys' daughter.  According to the geneology charts
>she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she
>would be the greatest healer around.  Nary a word.  So many
>potential story-lines!  And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting
>better and better!

Well, I should hope so.  Kurtz, for those of you who recall, was the
target of Ursula LeGuin's article "From Elfland to Pooghkeepsie"
(reprinted in _The Language of the Night_, which anyone interested
in the literature of fantasy should read) in which the writing in a
passage from _Deryni Rising_ is excoriated.  I'm not sure I would
criticize it on quite the same terms that LeGuin does, but even now
there is room for improvement in Kurtz's style.

I rather liked the Camber books, and by and large the current series
I find to be a great disappointment.  The narrative continuity of
the three new Kelson books is much weaker, and the Deus Ex Machina
in the middle of the third is terribly clumsy.  Also, the books are
too drawn out; the material of the first two books could have been
condensed it one book, to its benefit.

I am hoping that these problems will not beset the next set of
"Camber" books, especially as I find those characters to be a lot
stronger anyway.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 87 01:50:48 GMT
From: osupyr!lum@rutgers.edu (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) writes:
>ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>> .. _The_Dispossessed_ [seems like] hard-core SF .. sociology ..
>> full of blatantly obvious "symbolism" .. pounded through the
>> reader's thick skull...
>.. LeGuin's best work by far is THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS.  ...
>Also very good are ROCANNAN'S WORLD [,] CITY OF ILLUSIONS [and
>such] beautifully gem-like short stories [as] "Winter's King", "The
>Day Before the Revolution", and "Semley's Necklace"...

I wish to strongly echo the above remarks.  _The_Dispossessed_ seems
to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a political
essay (some would say propaganda).  Unlike Rand, LeGuin has at least
the merciful virtue of relative brevity.  _TD_ is undoubtedly her
_least_ representative work to date.  In addition to the titles
mentioned above, look for _The_Word_for_World_is_Forest_, a novel,
which appeared previously in _Again,_Dangerous_Visions_ as a
novella, and _The_Lathe_of_Heaven_, a novel, which has also been
broadcast as a teleplay by PBS.  I seem to half-recall something
else, so I may followup with more later.

Lum Johnson
lum@ohio-state.arpa
lum@osu-eddie.uucp
cbosgd!osu-eddie[!osupyr]!lum

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 16:33:15 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Works

Very recently, on the recommendation of many of the people on the
net, I read _A Canticle for Leibowitz_.  I did enjoy it.  I was
wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other post-holocaust
books to me.  I have read Paul O. Williams' series (The Pelbar
Cycle), and enjoyed those for their entertain- ment value, but they
really weren't outstanding sf/literature.  Please reply via e-mail,
as questions of this sort usually tend to flood the net (I got
flamed for that once).  However, if anyone wants to discuss the
likelihood of these sort of novels...

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 18:33:16 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alex B. Granok) writes:
>I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other
>post-holocaust books to me.

Alex, try the "Vision of Beasts" series by Jack(?) Lovejoy.  He does
some *very* interesting things with mutation.  I also liked "Battle
Circle" by Piers Anthony - this was originally a series of three
short novels called "Sos the Rope", "Var the Stick", and "Neq the
Sword", repackaged and reprinted at least a couple of times, now,
including a recent edition which is currently on the stands.

In a slightly different vein, "Battlefield Earth" by the
oh-so-controversial L. Ron Hubbard is a post-alien-takeover book.
This is a story in the classic good-guys versus bad-guys genre, more
entertainment than thought provocation, but I wouldn't have minded
if it had been twice as long.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 17:19:32 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

>I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other
>post-holocaust books to me.

Darkness and Dawn, by George Allan England.  (A classic, from near
the start of the century).

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 03:22:19 GMT
From: well!mandel@rutgers.edu (Tom Mandel)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

Not quite a traditional post-holocaust novel, but well worth picking
up is Michael Swanwick's _In the Drift_ (New York: Ace Science
Fiction Books, 1987).  This is the second printing of a 1985
paperback.  The setting is the Drift, a large part of New York and
Pennsylvania made somewhat inhabitable by the Meltdown.  The
underlying device is what might have happened if 3 Mile Island
actually suffered a complete and catastrophic meltdown.  I recommend
it highly.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 87 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #69
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:

                     Films - Aliens (9 msgs) &
                             Alan Quatermain (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 18:36:56 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Aliens and the Computers

xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU (Eugene) writes:
>As to Aliens being very popular, I don't think it is because Aliens
>is a sf movie, rather it is because it is a horror movie.  By the
>way Aliens is not a story of computer anyway.

True, but part of the original (and much better) movie revolved
around the fact that Ashe was an android, and would therefore do
whatever the Company told him with no thought for the human cost.
The sequel did continue to investigate Ripley's attitudes toward
androids because of this, until it got sidetracked by Ramboism.

Alien was a horror movie. Aliens was a war movie trying to be a
horror movie.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 87 00:36:08 GMT
From: hscfvax!spem@rutgers.edu (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Re: Aliens and the Computers

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Alien was a horror movie. Aliens was a war movie trying to be a
>horror movie.

No.  Alien was a horror movie, true.  But Aliens was an
*action-adventure* movie - complete with cardboard archetypes (like
the Evil Yuppie).  And it had quite a bit of SUSPENSE, true, but not
that much horror.  Sorta just helped to stir up the viewer's
emotions against the aliens.

I agree, though, it would've been very interesting to dig deeper
into Ripley's (and the future society's) feelings about androids.
But neither picture really was set up to do that - maybe there'll be
an "Alien III: The Social Study" 8-)

G. T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU
gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 87 00:21:27 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU (Eugene) writes:
>>As to Aliens being very popular, I don't think it is because
>>Aliens is a sf movie, rather it is because it is a horror movie.
>>By the way Aliens is not a story of computer anyway.
>
>True, but part of the original (and much better) movie revolved
>around the fact that Ashe was an android, and would therefore do
>whatever the Company told him with no thought for the human cost.
>The sequel did continue to investigate Ripley's attitudes toward
>androids because of this, until it got sidetracked by Ramboism.
>
>Alien was a horror movie. Aliens was a war movie trying to be a
>horror movie.

Pardon me?  WHAT?  Please tell me I'm not the only one...

ALIENS (with the "s") was an ADVENTURE movie, and was far better
than the original. (-OF COURSE, this is MY OPINION!-=:^) Adventure
movies are often popular!  And I don't think this one was trying to
be anything else.

The original was a horror movie, and if you went to ALIENS looking
for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed.  But this is the
first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was better than
ALIENS.  ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my "all-time
favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a mention.

Is my view rare?

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 00:52:40 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

First, several people have posted comments to the effect that ALIENS
was an action-adventure movie, not a war movie. Very true. I blanked
on the term I wanted and settled for "war", which I knew wasn't
quite right.

Oddly enough, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that
ALIENS was better than ALIEN! I did in fact go to both expecting a
horror movie, and was disappointed in the second. It still could
have been good if there had been anything interesting going on, but
I knew that we would win in the end. The only thing that had me
going was

[SPOILER]

whether the gutsy woman or the potential love interest would be the
only other survivor. (That there had to be an "only other survivor"
was clear from the beginning...) I was pretty sure it would be the
potential love interest, so even that didn't surprise me.

[END SPOILER]

I sat through all of ALIENS thinking "if only they had rehired H. R.
Giger, if only they had." For me, and everyone I know who has seen
both (except you), the second movie was nowhere near as good as the
first.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 87 21:28:02 GMT
From: watmath!gamiddleton@rutgers.edu (Guy Middleton)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
> The original was a horror movie, and if you went to ALIENS looking
> for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed.  But this is the
> first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was better than
> ALIENS.  ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my "all-time
> favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a mention.
>
> Is my view rare?

Fairly rare.  Most people I know prefer the second film, but
nevertheless like the first one a lot.  The reason, I think, is that
most people (myself included) find suspense films too difficult to
watch.  Alien was certainly as good a suspense movie as Aliens was
an adventure; many people respond better to adventure, but still
appreciate the suspense.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 06:53:59 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Alien vs  Aliens

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>ALIENS (with the "s") was an ADVENTURE movie, and was far better
>than the original.
>
>The original was a horror movie, and if you went to ALIENS looking
>for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed.  But this is the
>first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was better than
>ALIENS.  ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my "all-time
>favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a mention.
>
>Is my view rare?

  I don't know, but I hope so. "Aliens" was a fine, entertaining
movie.  "Alien" is one of the classics of cinema; it belongs with
"Psycho" and "Jaws" as an example of the genuinely scary and
brilliantly made shocker.  One unique feature is the intense
atmospheric effect of the mad Swiss artist, Hans Geiger. My only
objection is that some scenes were cut as "too intense", which goes
against the spirit of such a nightmare on film.

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 87 23:01:15 GMT
From: cpro!asgard@rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

One reason I liked ALIENS (with an S) better than ALIEN is the bad
experience I had when I first saw ALIEN.  I had previously read the
novelization and wanted to see the movie.  The following free day
was (as it turned out) October 31.  I would expect more civilized
people to visit movie theaters in Berkeley.  Between the guys
lighting up funny cigarettes on the right and the bozo in front
lighting firecrackers at the moments of high suspense it was a
disaster.  This is no reflection on the movie itself, just the bad
associations I have with the film.  This is also the reason why I
will never go to a first-fun theater again.  It will be either the
rep-house or cable.  [With HDTV with the scope-like aspect ratio
coming soon my inclinations will be more toward cable.]

J.R. Stoner
asgard@cpro.UUCP asgard@wotan.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 21:33:17 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Now wait just a minute, here... Re: Aliens (was "and the
Subject: Computers")

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>Pardon me?  WHAT?  Please tell me I'm not the only one...  ALIENS
>(with the "s") was an ADVENTURE movie, and was far better than the
>original. (-OF COURSE, this is MY OPINION!-=:^) Adventure movies
>are often popular!  And I don't think this one was trying to be
>anything else.  The original was a horror movie, and if you went to
>ALIENS looking for the same you were BOUND to be disappointed.  But
>this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that ALIEN was
>better than ALIENS.  ALIENS has earned an honoured position on my
>"all-time favourites" list, while ALIEN doesn't even deserve a
>mention.
>
>Is my view rare?

I disagree with panning ALIEN the way you obviously have.  They are
of two completely different genres.  In my opinion, ALIEN was *much*
more suspenseful and darker in tone then the sequel.  I would
classify it more as a suspense- thriller than as a horror movie.
ALIENS was, I agree, an adventure movie.  Don't get me wrong.  I
loved ALIENS, even more than the original.  But I must say that I
thought the original is a *very* good movie, and, in my opinion,
much better science fiction than the sequel.  This should have
started a pretty good fire, so I'll just sit back and wait for the
flames. :-)

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 17:09:13 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Now wait just a minute, here... Re: Aliens

Here are my views of the two films.

A major theme in the original film was the betrayal of the organic
by both the organic and the inorganic (this was discussed by myself
and some other folks here a while back at some length). Ripley wins
out because she fights hard to retain her essential humanity -- she
escapes becoming hamburger at one point, I recall, because she cares
enough about the ship's cat to go back into hell to rescue it. The
nightmarish quality of the film comes in large part from our
perception that our own technological creations may turn against us,
that in fact our own organic selves may eventually become corrupted
by our obsession with the inorganic (which, of course, fits in well
with the artist Giger's obsessions). Ripley nearly loses her life at
one point because she can't follow the complicated instructions that
are needed to undo the ship's destruct mechanism: just one instance
in the film where humanity is nearly undone by its own creation.

I also feel the second film is not as good (make that excellent) as
the original.

Why people insist that either should be classified as horror or
adventure rather than SF is beyond me: ALIEN is in a class with John
Campbell's classic story "Who Goes There?" and has a gritty realism
that many SF films lack, and ALIENS is a variation on the subgenre
"the Space Marines Meet the BEMs From Venus." :-) To me, they're
both good SF providing you don't insist on "scientific accuracy" in
your SF tales. The reading of SF should, after all, involve a
certain suspension of disbelief.

Cheers, BIll Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 87 19:01:57 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Alan Quartermain films

>       Are the two Chamberlain flicks really two movies or just
> one that was released [ as 'King Solomon's Mines' ] bombed, given
> a new ad campaign and title [ 'Alan Quatermain, etc...' ] and
> rereleased?  Did anyone bother seeing either or both?

I saw the first when it first came out.  What a terrible movie!  It
is the type where, if the projectionist screwed up and showed the
reels in the wrong order, no one would notice.  Bimbo gets in a jam,
Alan rescues her, bimbo gets in another jam, Alan rescues her, etc.,
etc., etc.  You couldn't pay me enough to see another of those.
(Well, I guess you could, but nobody would.)  Why do reasonable
actors like Richard Chamberlain make such stupid movies?  Didn't he
get to see the script first?  Maybe they didn't have a script.

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 22:14:30 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Alan Quatermain

I haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain Alan Quatermain movies yet,
but I was wondering if they bore any relation at all to the series
of Quatermain (yes, I mean Quatermain not Quartermain) movies that
were made in the fifties-sixties. One of these was called
"Quatermain and the Pit," and there were about five of them. The one
I saw had a spaceship found buried in London, that had once
contained aliens that looked like grasshoppers. If anyone knows
anything about any of this, please let me know so I'll know, too.
Thanks.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 15:24:45 GMT
From: ostroff@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jack H. Ostroff)
Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain

>... One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and ...

I think you mean "Quatermass and the Pit."  I believe they are
totally unrelated.  I also believe the Quatermass movies were
discussed on this list several months ago (perhaps longer).

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 08:29:42 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Alan Quartermain [sic] films

From:   valid!jao       (John Oswalt)
>>      Are the two Chamberlain flicks really two movies or just
>> one that was released [ as 'King Solomon's Mines' ] bombed, given
>> a new ad campaign and title [ 'Alan Quatermain, etc...' ] and
>> rereleased?  Did anyone bother seeing either or both?
>
> ...Why do reasonable actors like Richard Chamberlain make such
> stupid movies?  Didn't he get to see the script first?  Maybe they
> didn't have a script.

It's quite possible that the script he first saw wasn't all that
bad, but ended up going through so many revisions that whatever
hypothetical worth existed was exorcised completely.

To answer the original question: They are two separate movies.
Cannon Films, in order to save location filming costs, filmed both
movies back to back and just separated the releases by a year.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 14:43:01 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
> I haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain Alan Quatermain movies yet,
> but I was wondering if they bore any relation at all to the series
> of Quatermain (yes, I mean Quatermain not Quartermain) movies that
> were made in the fifties-sixties. One of these was called
> "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were about five of them. The
> one I saw had a spaceship found buried in London, that had once
> contained aliens that looked like grasshoppers. If anyone knows
> anything about any of this, please let me know so I'll know, too.

No, you mean Quatermass, not Quatermain.  The films are (in order):

   THE QUATERMASS XPERIMENT (U.S. title THE CREEPING UNKNOWN)
   QUATERMASS II (U.S. title ENEMY FROM SPACE)
   QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (U.S. title FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH)
   THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION (released in the U.S. only on
       videocassette)

Yes, the spelling of the first title is correct.  All were based on
BBC serials (or was the last ITV--I'm not clear on this).  The last
was merely re-edited from the serial; the rest were re-shot as
films.  THE GOON SHOW did a take-off of QUATERMASS & THE PIT called
"The Scarlet Capsule."  Mark thinks QUATERMASS AND THE PIT is the
cat's whiskers, and in general knows much more about the films than
I do, so he can add to this if he wishes.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 87 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #70
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brust & Cherryh & Hogan & McCollum &
                    Schmitz (6 msgs) & Stewart

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 05:30:36 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Teckla

roy@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Roy Mongiovi) writes:
>dave@viper.UUCP (David Messer) writes:
>> Vlad finds out that for once, killing everybody wouldn't solve
>> his problems.
>
>Oh, on the contrary, there's one point where killing everyone
>*would* solve his problems.  But unfortunately, a ghost appears to
>talk him out of it :-)

Killing everyone in that situation would solve every problem...
except one: Cawti would probably kill *him* for it...

>> What gives you the idea that people don't have guarantees of
>> personal liberty on Dragaera?  It seems to me that freedom is
>> almost absolute there unless you break one of the unwritten laws
>> like fighting between houses.  Nobody bugged the revolutionaries
>> until they started bugging the Empire.
>
>Ah, right.  Did we read the same books?  These are slaves in a
>feudal system.  The bone-crushing reality of simply having to
>support their lives and pay their owners taxes must surely prevent
>the idealistic nonsense Cawti was spouting.  In the environment
>described for the planet (Dragaera?), I don't see how they could
>possibly act like 1960/70's protestors.  It isn't until technology
>allows you the leasure time necessary to have non-violent protest
>that you find that sort of person.  In feudal times you can only
>expect bloody revolution.  I don't see any evidence that
>magic/sorcery is replacing technology enough to allow the Teckla to
>act as they did in the novel.

Consider the situation.  Has there ever been a feudal society on
Earth where the oppressed become the rulers every 17 emperors?
Makes for some interesting thinking.

>> As for the realism of the revolt:  remember that these people,
>> by-and-large, were neophytes at the revolutionary game.  They
>> didn't have a world were revolutions are common and one may
>> study them for effectiveness.
>
>Right.  And when Earth was in a corresponding place in its history,
>it didn't have the sort of protestors described in Teckla.  The
>folks in Tecka had a lot of theory about how to boss the
>establishment.  Where did it come from?

Their last turn at the Orb?

>> Did you read this thing?  That is explored in great depth.  Vlad
>> felt that murder of Dragearans was okay because of how they
>> treated Easterners.  Then, to his shock, he found out that he
>> used to be one himself.  Sorta like a southern bigot who finds
>> out that he has a Black grandparent.
>
>Yeah.  I've read Jhereg/Yendi twice, and Teckla once.  How about
>you?  I understand the emphasis SKZB puts on Vlad's/Aliera's
>relationship.  I'm questioning the logic of the author's treatment
>of that relationship.
>
>..siblings.  What makes one lifetime (out of who knows how many)
>special?  Is it sensible that such concepts would exist to such a
>people?

It's not that Vlad was SPECIFICALLY Aliera's brother, it's the fact
that Vlad hates Dragaerans because Dolivar hated Dragaerans.
(Interesting subtopic: Aliera hints in JHEREG that both she and
Sethra are guilty of helping set the stage for Dolivar's expulsion
from the House of the Dragon.  So -- is Sethra the actual origin of
the Jhereg?  *Did she know?*)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 87 04:20:00 GMT
From: render@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Chanur's Homecoming:  Wow.

I just finished reading the final installment of C.J. Cherryh's
CHANUR series, and to put it mildly, it was a blast.  The whole
series has been good, but not too many books have kept me interested
enough to stay up 'til 3am three nights in a row.  The best plotting
and dialogue I have read in many a moon.  So, if you've been
disappointed by other series (Hitchikers's Guide, Foundation, etc.),
take heart.  Some folks out there know how to finish a story.  My
only complaint is that it didn't last longer...

Hal Render
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
render@b.cs.uiuc.edu           (ARPA)
render@uiuc.csnet              (CSNET)
{seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render (USENET)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 18:59:31 GMT
From: gallagher@husc4.HARVARD.EDU (paul gallagher)
Subject: Re: Nonagression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

I haven't read the Giants trilogy, but one point which I think is
relevant to your discussion is the high correlation between certain
biological characteristics and the predatory lifestyle (in
arthropods, cephalopods, and vertebrates).

In particular, some biologists propose as an adaptive scenario for
the origin of the Vertebrates the shift to active predation: "The
earliest structures considered to be vertebrate probably developed
during the time of the shift from filter-feeding to more active
predation.  This mode of life permitted and demanded greater
metabolic expenditures at the cellular level, as well as a shift to
improved gas exchange and distribution.  Predation also provided the
selection pressure for the development of major sense organs."
(Northcutt, R.G. and C. Gans, The Genesis of the Neural Crest and
Epidermal Placodes: A Reinterpretation of Vertebrate Origins, The
Quarterly Review of Biology (1983) 58:1-28.

Of course, scavengers and herbivores evolved secondarily.  Northcutt
and Gans may be wrong, but if they are right, it seems that
fast-moving organisms with complex and efficient circulatory,
digestive, and nervous systems and special sense organs would not
evolve among organisms where predation on other animals is
impossible.

Paul Gallagher

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 19:20:31 GMT
From: wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: McCollum PROCYON'S PROMISE question (SPOILER)

I have a question about PROCYON'S PROMISE by Michael McCollum (Del
Rey, 1985; ISBN 345-30296-6).

This question involves a major "spoiler" of the plot, so if you
haven't yet read the book, you should probably skip this article
entirely.

Toward the end of the book (Chapter 29; pp. 275-276), it is revealed
that the "Makers" (the advanced civilization which sent out the Life
Probes) and the "Star Travelers" (ST's, or "estees"; the
civilization whose remnants were found by the human expedition to
Procyon) were one and the same.

This discovery came when PROM (the sentient computer on the starship
_Procyon's_Promise_), as "she" was analyzing records of the Maker
civilization on their abandoned home planet, came across a picture
of a group of Makers working at the "First Landing" base on Procyon
VII.

What I don't understand is why PROM and the Alphan expedition didn't
make the connection between the Makers and the ST's much, much
sooner.  Presumably, the language of the records on the Maker home
planet should have been identical to the language of the records
found by the Alphan colonists at the abandoned ST base.  Yet, when
it is stated that "PROM has cracked the Maker language" (Chapter 28;
p. 269), no suggestion is given of any similarity between the Maker
and ST languages.

Also, I find it a bit odd that the FTL ship maintenance manual on
the ST record strip found by the Alphans amidst the garbage of the
base at First Landing (Chapter 3; p. 31) apparently didn't contain
even one picture of a Star Traveler.  One would at least have
expected a diagram of the bridge, or some other room, showing
"people" sitting in the chairs.  If there had been any such pictures
or diagrams, PROM -- or the Alphans -- would have recognized that
the Makers and the ST's were one and the same when the scout ship
saw the statue on the Maker planet (Chapter 27; p. 257).

Does anyone have an explanation for these seeming inconsistencies?

By the way, I very much enjoyed both PROCYON'S PROMISE and its
predecessor, LIFE PROBE.  I asked this question before, but does
anyone know whether McCollum plans to put out another book in this
series?

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles
California 90024 // USA
wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
(ucbvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 02:27:10 GMT
From: morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that
>do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For
>instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and
>suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to
>me.  The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science
>fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships?

Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). This seems to be
science fiction (main character is a spaceship pilot), but with a
few witches thrown in for good measure... It's also a very good
book.  In fact, what is the difference between a fantasy story with
witches/ spell casters of sorts and a science fiction story with
psionically-endowed characters? Seems like they get the same
results...

Morgan Clark
g-clark@gumby.wisc.edu
morganc@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 02:42:49 GMT
From: mhuxu!davec@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) writes:
> Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). This seems to be
> science fiction (main character is a spaceship pilot), but with a
> few witches thrown in for good measure... It's also a very good
> book.

Yes, this was a very good book.  Has Schmitz ever written anything
else?  I've never found anything, but he is definitely on my
purchasing-and-read list.

Dave Caswell
{allegra|ihnp4|...}!mhuxu!davec
davec@borax.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 14:19:39 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

davec@mhuxu.UUCP writes:
>morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) writes:
>> Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?). This seems to
>> be science fiction (main character is a spaceship pilot), but
>> with a few witches thrown in for good measure... It's also a very
>> good book.
>
>Yes, this was a very good book.  Has Schmitz ever written anything
>else?  I've never found anything, but he is definately on my
>purchasing-and-read list.

James H Schmitz wrote LOTS of stuff, mostly published in
Astounding/Analog.  One series of stories was about a young human
with a wild talent called Telzey Amberdon, now published as "The
Universe Against Her", "The Telzey Toy", and "The Lion Game".
Another excellent novel was serialised as "The Tuvela", and
published I believe as "The Demon Breed".

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 87 22:18:19 GMT
From: hyper!jmh@rutgers.edu (Joel Halpern)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

Unfortunately, although The_Witches_of_Karres was clearly written
with a sequel in mind, Schmitz never wrote one before he died.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 22:48:16 GMT
From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Resurrect James Schmitz! (Was Re: fantasy and science
Subject: fiction)

> Unfortunately, although The_Witches_of_Karres was clearly written
> with a sequel in mind, Schmitz never wrote one before he died.

This is perhaps the best argument for resurrection I've come across.

BRING BACK JAMES SCHMITZ!  We want a sequel!

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 17:50:07 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Resurrect James Schmitz!

> Unfortunately, although The_Witches_of_Karres was clearly written
> with a sequel in mind, Schmitz never wrote one before he died.

I wonder about that.  I'd give a lot for a sequel, and certainly
there was *room* for a sequel, but I didn't get the impression that
a sequel was intended.

It's one of the sadder aspects of SF publishing today that a sequel
that will be read will generally be written.  Of *course* TWoK could
have been turned into a never-ending-saga, but there are healthier
alternatives than the NES and the happily-ever-after with
all-loose-ends-tied.  My impression, at the time of reading, and
still, is that Schmitz chose the middle path of writing an excellent
book that was complete in itself and then leaving the characters in
the middle of what promised to be a busy and interesting life.

I think I got more enjoyment from filling in the blanks myself than
I would have from a sequel.  And I'm not sure losing some of his
later output in exchange for a sequel would have been that good a
trade.

(Having said that, and noting that I never took a vow of
consistency: too bad he didn't write more Agent of Vega stories.)

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 23:17:01 GMT
From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alex B. Granok) writes:
> Very recently, on the recommendation of many of the people on the
> net, I read _A Canticle for Leibowitz_.  I did enjoy it.  I was
> wondering if anyone out there can recommend any other
> post-holocaust books to me.  I have read Paul O. Williams' series
> (The Pelbar Cycle), and enjoyed those for their entertain- ment
> value, but they really weren't outstanding sf/literature.  Please
> reply via e-mail, as questions of this sort usually tend to flood
> the net (I got flamed for that once).  However, if anyone wants to
> discuss the likelihood of these sort of novels...

I'm posting this to the net 'cos I think that this particular book
needs to be read a bit more than it is. I've been soaking up sf like
a sponge for about 13 years now and only heard of George Stewart's
book "Earth Abides" last year.  It is a very well written and
thoroughly believable account of the life of a man who survives a
disease that wipes out 99.99% (or thereabouts) of the human race. It
deals with many aspects of what one might expect to find in such a
future, including the hero's coming to terms with his lonliness; his
attempts to build a new society with the dregs of humanity that he
can find and the application of 'law/justice/self-preservation'. It
raises many questions: what is worth saving of our culture for
future generations? Could *you* kill in cold blood to protect
defenseless members of your community? Do you have the right to
force your culture/knowledge on a generation that has no use for it,
and is the history of such a failed culture even worth keeping?

For such a remarkably good novel, I am amazed by its relative
obscurity, even within sf fandom. It took me several trips to the
local second-hand bookshop to find it (they have an excellent
stock), it was republished shortly after I found my copy but I have
no idea of the extent of its distribution.

If you can find a copy - READ IT!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 87 0939-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #71
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Terminology (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 08:59:23 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships?

Yes, try 'The Copper Crown' (current, but author forgotten).

Involves celts, atlantis, science, magic and yes, spaceships...

I could tell from the cover that this had to be horrible, but out of
some masochistic impulse bought it anyway.  Actually turned out to
be kind of fun...

There really is no good definition or border.  My best guess is that
Science Fiction extrapolates from the possible, Fantasy from the
impossible.  The grey area must therefore extrapolate from the
improbable 8-)

George Robbins
ucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 03:04:50 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Becky, you seem to think of science fiction mostly as what is often
>called "hard sf". As in Sagan's pi-meter, now beaten to death [I
>hope].  But much science fiction is not about science or technology
>at all, although the science functions as a *necessary* *backdrop*
>for the story. For example, consider LeGuin's "The Word for World
>is Forest", and Leinster's "Martian Odyssey". These stories are
>about alien (== strange, mysterious) ways of thinking; but they use
>the metaphor of aliens (== from space) to say their piece.

I agree!  I read very little sf that is concerned with science or
technology, though I wish I could read more (just can't get through
a lot of it).  I read for characters -if I don't like the
characters, I don't enjoy the book- and a lot of "hard sf" has
fairly poor characterization (or characterization that I disagree
with, at any rate).  But a book can have a scientifically plausible
setting without describing that setting in detail.

A lot of "lit" sf can be dissected in English class, for its themes
of the human mind and world.  If the entire story takes place on a
primitive world, with no spaceships or lazer pistols or toilets, it
can still be sf.  I'll mention CJCherryh's Morgaine books later, and
you mention McCaffery's Pern.  Both have a background or assumed
background that suggests, not techie stuff, but a world that is a
series of possible steps away from present scientific knowledge.
Some involve bigger steps; though I prefer CJ's writing to
McCaffery's, I do have an easier time believing Pern than I do the
worlds of GATE OF IVREL.

If a writer uses an alien to tell us about humans, he still has a
choice between having that alien's physical existence relate in
steps to our knowledge of what's physically possible and not
bothering to make that alien believable outside its metaphoric uses.
Elves, usually called "fantastic creatures" rather than "aliens",
can still be used to describe "human nature".  The background used
for "fantastic creatures" is very different from the background used
for "aliens" -I'm not comparing a primitive world to one with
spaceships, etc., but an approach to the reasons for the worlds'
existences- no matter what the writers' reasons for telling the
stories.

>>`Fantasy' deals in the same manner with the corresponding laws of
>>other universes; since we have as yet no proof that other
>>universes even exist, let alone the possibility that they are
>>governed by laws that are substantially different from ours,
>
>This is fascinating. I read what you said here and was all set to
>jump in with, "But by that definition, Dhalgren is fantasy." And
>then I thought about it a little, and decided that yes, it is.

Sure.  The feel of Dhalgren is all sf; it's hard, it's gritty, and
set in a world so clearly related to our own.  Fantasy is usually
all poetry, all full of sunshine and healing magic...  How can
Dhalgren be classed with that?!  But either Dhalgren is a mainstream
novel or it is fantasy, because it is either Kidd's mind or his
world that continues to defy universal laws as we know them.

>Does what you are saying here mean that fantasy is just science
>fiction with different physical laws? That's a twist; I've seen
>people argue that science fiction is a subgenre of fantasy (cf.
>Laura above), but the other way around is rare.
>
>>fantasy is far more abstract than sf.  This genre also deals with
>>possibilities that MAY apply to our own universe, but that are so
>far removed from our current knowledge that they may as WELL be
>found in another universe.
>
>But this, then, definitely includes such things as
>faster-than-light travel and communication, terraforming, genetic
>engineering on a grand scale, and many other staples of "science
>fiction". Also psychic powers, a staple of much fantasy (which I
>personally believe in about as much as I believe in warp drive, but
>I'm quite willing to have others disagree).

It depends on the reader.  You talked about the "grey area" between
genres.  For some, this area is quite large.  For others, it barely
exists at all.  Given my definitions of the two genres (or
sub-genres, perhaps of that other "sf", "speculative fiction"), the
grey area is then the reader's perception of what possibilities
belong in the universe as we know it now.  For example: I have a
strong scientific background with very little scientific fact (the
way of thinking without the results, if you will); so if something
is presented to me clearly and logically, with backing from the
"real" world, I am very likely to accept it without proof.  FTL
travel and communication seem reasonable to me; though I've often
heard people say that such is impossible by our current
understanding of the universe, I know so few facts that I go by
presentation alone.  (so much for "scientific method", eh?)

You also use genetic engineering as an example of what must fall
into fantasy.  (rather, you say "genetic engineering on a grand
scale") This is something I HAVE read something about, and discussed
several times with other people.  My knowledge is still superficial,
but I know enough to be sure (unlike my feelings for FTL) that even
"on a grand scale" is only a matter of time.

>When you say that "fantasy has the greater possibility for error",
>you seem to mean, again, in contrast to "hard sf", the stories
>written by physicists who include afterwords with references to the
>relevant scientific journals. But what is "Star Wars", then?
>Scientifically, I believe it less than Hambly's "Darwath" series.

Fantasy.  Definitely fantasy.  Does anyone out there really think
otherwise?  I mean, by publishers/producers' classifications, it's
"that sci-fi stuff", but by content and thought?  Fantasy.

>I have seen science fiction described (I don't think I want to say
>"defined") as a genre of writing in which the writer gets to make
>one outrageous assumption or set of assumptions (FTL travel,
>genetic engineering) and then must be reasonable for the rest of
>the story, so that things follow from the ground the wild
>assumption laid.

I like that description, and I enjoy fiction that follows it, but it
is very exclusive.  A LOT of what I call "sf" doesn't fit.

>understand you correctly, you are saying that the main difference
>between science fiction and fantasy is that in fantasy, that
>assumption can be more outrageous than it can in science fiction.

And with much less of a logical approach.  I guess presentation is
my weak spot, but writers get caught by this too.  CJCherryh has
said that her Morgaine books (soon to go past trilogy) are fantasy.
I don't know whether or not she still maintains that, but most of
her fans agree that the books are sf.  They concern the travels of a
woman whose goal is to close Gates, which are basically
teleportation booths.  The worlds involved are "sword & sorcery"
settings, and Morgaine uses a "magic" sword to find the Gates and
close them behind her.  And the Gates can transport people through
time as well as space.  Normally, I class anything to do with time
travel as fantasy, and teleportation has never been one of my
favourite modes of travel.  But something in the way Carolyn
presented the Gates and the worlds found -and often detroyed- by
them made me class the books as sf.  Again, it's a personal
judgment.  But the approach or presentation of the author counts for
a lot.

>I think part of the problem with trying to find some sort of line
>between fantasy and science fiction is that which category we
>perceive something as being in depends, not so much on its subject
>matter (spaceships vs. dragons) but on the way it is presented, and
>"the way it is presented" is terribly difficult to quantify. (I
>never did like English classes where you dissected a story into
>little bits...) Is it just a historical fluke that spaceships are
>correlated strongly with what is felt to be "science fiction"?

Absolutely!  -Which is why the publisher's classifications can't be
taken too seriously.  They ARE a help, though, because most of the
writers that write well using spaceships are interested in making
those spaceships "real", or in showing off whatever scientific
knowledge they can claim, while the fantasy writers don't seem to
feel the same way at all.

>I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of that
>do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they would. For
>instance, I always thought of Dhalgren as science fiction, and
>suddenly four paragraphs ago I realized that it is more fantasy to
>me.  The Pern books are full of dragons, yet they are science
>fiction. Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships?

I guess Hitchiker's Guide would best be classed as humour.  As I
mentioned above, CJCherryh's GATE OF IVREL, WELL OF SHIUAN, and
FIRES OF AZEROTH have had a bit of trouble with classification.
STAR WARS is a fantasy with space-ships - but then, ships that BANK
in mid-space aren't really spaceships.  I can't think of any fantasy
stories with spaceships offhand, but someday, when I unpack my
book-boxes (at last I have discovered that I hate moving!), I'll
take a look.  I suspect most of them are really just bad attempts at
sf.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 16:34:52 GMT
From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: fantasy and science fiction

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
> Other fantasies don't bother with laws or allow virtually anything
> (cf "Her Majesty's Wizard" (I think; author's name forgotten)
> where the magician may do anything if he can compose a poem to
> describe it).

It's by Stasheff.  I agree with your general point, but you've
picked a bad example; magic in HMW does obey certain specific laws
following from medieval religious beliefs; divine right of kings is
one such.

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 23:40:47 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

morganc@inst11.WISC.EDU (Morgan Clark) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>>I would be interested to hear of any books people can think of
>>that do not seem to fit in the category one would assume they
>>would.  [...] Are there any fantasy stories with spaceships?
>Try The_Witches_of_Karres by James Schmitz (sp?).

Also try _The_Warlock_in_Spite_of_Himself_, by Christopher Stasheff.
One of the more enjoyable SF/F books I've run into, although the
rest of the series pretty much fell flat for me. . . .  It's almost
totally fantasy, but with a small amount of "technology" thrown in;
might fit your bill.

Michael A. Justice
BITNet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET:  boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:  ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
ARPA:  boreas@bucsb.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 87 01:24:38 GMT
From: elron@ihlpm.ATT.COM (Gary F. York)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

Well, at last I've been sucked in.

First, my own bias is not toward fantasy; though I read fairy tales
as a kid, all the OZ books and so forth, I gave it up utterly when I
discovered science fiction.  I did read , _The Hobbit_, (ho hum),
but could never manage to finish even the first book of the Rings
trilogy.  Just couldn't bring myself to give a damn.

I'd say I mostly subscribe to the gradient scale theory which has
"hard" SF on one end and "pure" fantasy on the other.  There is
probably a catagory between the extreems which can legitimately be
called "science fantasy".

Pure fantasy seems almost always: lets pretend fairys are real.  Or
let's pretend magic works -- something like that.  The emphasis of
the story is then on the character of the elves, fairys or what have
you or on some quest.

Science fantasy begins with concern for lawfulness.  If magic is
present, the magic has strict rules of use, ie., a technology.
There is underlying order to the universe (however bizarre it may
initially appear) and some significant part of the story involves
the discovery or presentation of this order.  The science end of
this sub-genre appears when we discover that the magic is really
psionics (with at least some attempt to show that "mental" powers
are lawful) or that the gods/godesses are aliens with advanced
technology (read magic).

Hard science fiction is characterized by _both_ strict lawfulness (
NO assumptions, new technology, etc. that is deemed impossible by
our current understanding of science ) and rather more concern with
technology or science than with character development.  Yes, to be a
_good_ story, it must have interesting characters but the emphasis
is on interesting characters doing interesting _things_ rather than
on the character growing/changing in interesting ways.

If a good science-fiction story is strictly lawful but the thrust of
the story is on character development, we tend, I think, to consider
it simply good sf rather than good HARD sf.  Much of the charm of a
hard sf story is the realization that, yes, as far as we know now
these things really could be; we believe that (much of) the
technology could actually be attained.

SF which uses an ftl drive could be considered hard sf only to the
extent that the author is sucessful in convincing the readers that
there is a way in which it MIGHT be possible.  These days, it seems,
that is becoming increasingly difficult.  (Though I suspect few long
time readers of science fiction really believe, in their gut, that
ftl is impossible!)

All of this suggests that a three dimensional classification system
might be more appropriate:

Emphasis on charaters vs. emphasis on technology (the CT continum)
and "everyday" reality vs. strange reality (the ES continum).

If the scale runs 10 to -10, (CT,ES):

   Mainstream would be character/everday reality (10,10)
   Fantasy would be character/strange reality (10,-10)
   Hard SF would be technology/slightly non everyday (-10,7)
   Science fantasy would be technology/strange (-10,-10)

Normal science fiction would likely fit in the box defined by the
points (10,9) (CAN"T have sf with everyday reality) and (-7,-7) (If
it's too damn strange, it must be fantasy).

Cyberpunk is likely (8,9) - (0,0).  I see it as largely concerned
with the characters in a more or less everyday (but extrapolated)
future.  ( That it's a technological future makes it cyber, that
it's dismal makes it punk! ).

Of course, all of this ignores optomistic/pesimistic, craftmanship,
new-wave/experimental vs. standard tale-telling, etc.  But more than
three dimensions is awkward to visualize for most of us.

Gary F. York
(312) 979-0477
Bell Labs
Naperville, Il.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 87 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #72
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Thieve's World (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 February 1987 08:33:48 CST
From: U09862   at UICVM    (Carlo N. Samson            )
Subject: Thieves' World Covers

A quick question: Who are the three characters depicted on the
original "Thieves' World" covers? I know one of the is Lythande, but
I can't identify the other two.  Another question: If Lythande is
actually female, then why is he shown as male on the covers of
"Thieves' World", but as female on the cover of Marion Zimmer
Bradley's novel "Lythande"?

Carlo Samson
U09862@uicvm

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 21:51:06 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers ** Lythande spoiler if you care **

U09862@UICVM.BITNET writes:
>Another question: If Lythande is actually female, then why is he
>shown as male on the covers of "Thieves' World", but as female on
>the cover of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novel "Lythande"?

Because the fact that Lythande is female is a vital spoiler, not to
be given away on the cover. However, anyone reading the Lythande
novel is assumed to have already learned this from the Thieves'
World books.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 20:14:51 GMT
From: 6100192@PUCC.BITNET (Sundeep Amrute)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers

U09862@UICVM.BITNET  writes:
>A quick question: Who are the three characters depicted on the
>original "Thieves' World" covers? I know one of the is Lythande,
>but I can't identify the other two.

The other two characters are Hanse Shadowspawn and Cappen Varra
("the only honest man in sanctuary"), both of whom appear to have
been dropped from the series.  The current writers seem to consider
any characters who aren't demigods and/or mages too dull to bother
with.

BITNET: 6100192@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET.6100192

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 87 06:52:26 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!)

>Another question: If Lythande is actually female, then why is he
>shown as male on the covers of "Thieves' World", but as female on
>the cover of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novel "Lythande"?

Lythande is actually female.  However, her vow to the Blue Star is
such that if anyone ever finds out she is female, she dies, so she
masquerades as a male.  Which shows how poorly the Bantam cover
artist (I think it was another Kevin "accuracy? I don't need no
accuracy!" Johnson, as a matter of fact) read the book -- the person
on the cover of Lythande could NEVER pass herself off as male for
more than about 4 seconds, even at a blind man's convention.

Which gives me a chance to blow on a pet peeve -- the reason most
authors don't get control of the cover is because the publishers
claim that the authors don't know what works and the art director is
a PROFESSIONAL.  Cosidering the track record of artists/directors at
some publishing houses (I won't name names, although Bantam and Baen
come to mind...) do, they'd be MUCH better letting the author take a
crack at it. Or perhaps a chimpanzee.

Oh, well, so much for getting published...

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 87 07:06:36 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers

> The other two characters are Hanse Shadowspawn and Cappen Varra
> ("the only honest man in sanctuary"), both of whom appear to have
> been dropped from the series.  The current writers seem to
> consider any characters who aren't demigods and/or mages too dull
> to bother with.

Not true.  As in the case of Lythande (written by MZ Bradley)
Shadowspawn (written by Andrew Offutt) and Cappen Varra (written by
Poul Anderson) all left the series when the author decided they
didn't want to write for Thieves' World any more.  The basic rule of
the shared world is that you could use a character in your story,
but you couldn't markedly change it without the authors permission.
When the author that 'owned' a character dropped out, so did the
character.

This isn't the fault of the TW world people -- while they have lost
some of their interesting characters (One Thumb, as well as the
above named) I think they're MUCH better off than if they'd tried to
write for characters they didn't create -- Asprin or Abbey writing a
Shadowspawn would be an unmitigated disaster.

All is not hopeless, of course -- MZB, since she owned Lythande,
took her to her own, unshared, universe and wrote a bunch of pretty
good stories outside of the shared world restrictions.  Offutt was
theoretically writing a Shadowspawn novel, whether inside or outside
of TW I don't know, but I haven't heard word on it in a year, so
perhaps it died.  I, personally, really miss Shadowspawn, but I also
think that TW has done real well in handling the (unexpected)
success and the problems it caused. Remember, they planned one book,
not nine (plus novels, with #10 on its way), and it isn't surprising
that the less motivated authors with lots of other (better paying)
projects declined to continue.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 87 02:19:56 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu (becky)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers

U09862@UICVM.BITNET writes:
>A quick question: Who are the three characters depicted on the
>original "Thieves' World" covers? I know one of the is Lythande,
>but I can't identify the other two.  Another question: If Lythande
>is actually female, then why is he shown as male on the covers of
>"Thieves' World", but as female on the cover of Marion Zimmer
>Bradley's novel "Lythande"?

A while back, Asprin & Abbey sent out a newsletter/publishing list
to people who had, at some time in the past, written to them about
Thieves' World.  You can probably get a copy now if you write to
them, but it's really just a list of books and prices, and a couple
of pages on what you can't do on your own with Thieves' World (and
no pages on what you CAN).

Anyway, I believe it was in that newsletter that they said that the
three characters on the cover of the first book were originally
supposed to represent every-Sanctuarite.  Obviously the artist
picked up on Lythande's Blue Star.

Lythande is actually female, but she appears to be male to most of
those who see her.  Her sex is her `big secret'; doesn't she hold
her powers through this, or something?  Anyway, it would be pretty
silly to paint a cover of Lythande sitting undisguised at table with
two strangers!

Becky Slocombe.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 15:13:46 GMT
From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Thieves' World

6100192@PUCC.BITNET writes:
> The other two characters are Hanse Shadowspawn and Cappen Varra
> ("the only honest man in sanctuary"), both of whom appear to have
> been dropped from the series.  The current writers seem to
> consider any characters who aren't demigods and/or mages too dull
> to bother with.

A few messages back (I'm not sure where), someone mentioned that
after the seventh or eighth Thieves' World book, they started to get
better.  I was seriously considering starting to read them again
(since I stopped at about book five or six, whichever one the fish
people showed up in) but after reading the above quote, I don't
think I will.  When the stories started, they covered a wide range
of personalities and situations, from nobility to the scum of the
street, with a little magic thrown in to keep things unstable.  As
the books ran on, however, it seemed like the Gods were coming in to
take over.  I mean, Gods are nice and everything, but it seems like
they were EVERYWHERE in Sanctuary.  You couldn't walk down the
street without passing a God or two.  I really got put off, though,
when Hanse Shadowspawn got involved with the Gods.

Now to hear that Shadowspawn and Cappen Verra have been dropped in
the later books, I find it hard to believe that the stories can
actually get better.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Fone:  (301)454-8886
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 01:32:13 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!)

>Which gives me a chance to blow on a pet peeve -- the reason most
>authors don't get control of the cover is because the publishers
>claim that the authors don't know what works and the art director
>is a PROFESSIONAL.  Cosidering the track record of
>artists/directors at some publishing houses (I won't name names,
>although Bantam and Baen come to mind...) do, they'd be MUCH better
>letting the author take a crack at it. Or perhaps a chimpanzee.

I see we share a pet peeve.  Related pet peeve: Most publishers
don't seem to feel it's important to credit the cover artist
anywhere in the book.  The few times I see a well-done cover -or a
well-done painting, whether or not it's true to the story- I like to
know who to thank.

How do you feel about Whelan's cover work?  He does get an awful lot
of good press, but it is often justifiable; he seems to have done a
lot of research work, on CJCherryh covers in particular, and though
he still puts a lot of flash and colour into his paintings, they are
quite often fairly accurate.  Does DAW (Carolyn's publisher) make an
effort to have his artists read the books they are assigned to, or
is that a Whelan trait?

(Mind you, Whelan still put Morgaine in near-bikini armor, so he
isn't anywhere near infallible.  I prefer the painting style of
James Gurney, who's done covers for the Jane Gaskell reprints and
second-last Edward Llewellyn book, but Whelan is GOOD.)

Why is it that the publishers seem to be all too pleased to have sf
selling in mainstream markets while continuing to have their artists
to paint covers that are supposed to attract the sf readers that
now, for the most part, know better?

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 00:52:28 GMT
From: bnrmtv!zarifes@rutgers.edu (Kenneth Zarifes)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!)

> Lythande is actually female.  However, her vow to the Blue Star is
> such that if anyone ever finds out she is female, she dies, so she
> masquerades as a male.  Which shows how poorly the Bantam cover
> artist (I think it was another Kevin "accuracy? I don't need no
> accuracy!" Johnson, as a matter of fact) read the book -- the
> person on the cover of Lythande could NEVER pass herself off as
> male for more than about 4 seconds, even at a blind man's
> convention.

Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male?  Or does
she just have masculine features?  Or both?

Ken Zarifes
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!zarifes

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 17:45:21 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Lythande's vow. (Was Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!))

zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes:
>Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male?  Or does
>she just have masculine features?  Or both?

I believe that the result of Lythande being discovered as a woman is
not her death, but rather "power over her" goes to the discoverer.
Of course the the discoverer is Rabban the Half-Handed this could be
bad...

Lythande had another vow per se, which stated that she would not eat
with any man (?).  This was exemplified in Lythande's encounter with
Cappan Vara in an early story, wherein she smoked some, ah, leafy
substance, while Cappan Vara ate.

Also, I think that it clearly states in one of the early books that
Lythande just looks more like a guy than a gal.  I.e., loose
clothes, rough hair, drawn skin.  Magic? Feh!

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 18:12:06 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!)

zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes:
>Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male?  Or does
>she just have masculine features?  Or both?

She masquerades as a male, and has androgynous features.  Which is
why the cover is exceptionally stupid, since the person on the cover
is obviously female, both in the cheekbones and the eyebrows.
sigh....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 18:33:18 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: cover art (was: Thieves' World Covers)

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>I see we share a pet peeve.  Related pet peeve: Most publishers
>don't seem to feel it's important to credit the cover artist
>anywhere in the book.  The few times I see a well-done cover -or a
>well-done painting, whether or not it's true to the story- I like
>to know who to thank.

Almost all of the reputable houses are putting cover names on the
works these days.  Older works, no, but the newer ones. Most times,
it is on the Copyright page.

>How do you feel about Whelan's cover work?  He does get an awful
>lot of good press, but it is often justifiable;

Whelan is technically superb.  If you've never seen his stuff for
real (the painting, not covers or posters) you'll find they are real
marvels.  I also find that a lot of his covers are static and leave
me bored.  If you want to see some artwork that lives, look at early
Don Maitz.  His later stuff is too glitzy for my tastes...

>he seems to have done a lot of research work, on CJCherryh covers
>in particular, and though he still puts a lot of flash and colour
>into his paintings, they are quite often fairly accurate.  Does DAW
>(Carolyn's publisher) make an effort to have his artists read the
>books they are assigned to, or is that a Whelan trait?

That is a Whelan trait.  Art is done any number of ways:

An artist has a piece hanging around, and the publisher buys it
(this is standard for foreign work, unfortunately)

An artist does a piece from a summary done by an editorial assistant

An artist gets a galley, and scans around for something interesting
to paint

An artist reads the galley.

Whelan is known for carefully reading a manuscript before painting,
and also for calling the author for hints and suggestions.  He tends
to worry about things like eye and hair color -- even if they aren't
in the book. George Barr is another artist like this; someone who
feels his art should complement the book, not just cover it.

Most artists, however, don't seem to want to do that kind of work,
and most art directors don't push for it.  When you're in charge of
35 different covers in different stages of completion, I guess it is
hard to really worry about one.

A good example of carelessness is Kevin Johnson.  He's done a number
of really bad covers for Ace and Bantam.  My favorite botch is "The
Sorcery Within" by Dave Smeds, with two Bedouin types in a desert
riding horses. The only problem: no horses in the book!  the things
they ride look vaguely like mule deer -- but the horses were well
drawn, of course.  Just wrong.

He also did the covers for Feist's four book trilogy in paperback.
(although the two Magician covers were basically the same in
different covers, so there are really three and a half covers).
Mostly they're boring, but the Silverthorn cover is again wrong --
he obviously didn't read the book.  And when you compare them to the
covers on the doubleday hardbacks (the silverthorn hardback cover
has a mistake, but an appropriate one....) you realize exactly how
boring they are.  sigh.

>Why is it that the publishers seem to be all too pleased to have sf
>selling in mainstream markets while continuing to have their
>artists to paint covers that are supposed to attract the sf readers
>that now, for the most part, know better?

They are two different markets.  The books selling to the mainstream
DON'T have those kinds of covers -- Whelan does a LOT of the covers
for books that show up on the NYT list; for example Mirror of Her
Dreams by Donaldson.

The only read exception to that are the Anthony books and covers,
but I won't get into that discussion....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 87 1007-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #73
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:

                   Miscellaneous - Boskone XXIV &
                                   Conspiracy (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 14:30:05 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

                            Boskone XXIV
                        by Evelyn C. Leeper

1.  Thursday

1.1  Holiday on Ice

Boskone XXIV got off to an inauspicious start for us--we drove up to
Massachusetts in a blizzard.  It took an hour and a half to go the
first 50 miles, but then the roads got better and we made it to
South Hadley in about five hours, not much more than it usually
takes.  The car, of course, was covered with road dirt (the parking
lights were totally blacked out), but since we weren't driving into
Boston, we just wiped off the lights and left it at that.

2.  Friday

After our traditional pizza and a night's sleep we set off, but not
without further difficulties.  Dave's car was low on oil, and when
he went to fill it, a plastic hose broke off in the cold (about 0
degrees Fahrenheit).  Luckily it turned out to be a hose that only
kept the oil cap from getting misplaced but we had a couple of bad
moments.  So we picked up Kate and off we went.

This trip was much smoother--only about an hour and a half into
Boston, but then it took us about 20 minutes to find a spot in the
parking garage (after moving the sign that said "Full--Hotel Guests
Only" which had thoughtfully been placed right in the center of the
entrance).  The hotel area was full (it was about 2PM) but we
finally found a space in the general-purpose area.

2.1  Registration

Check-in was relatively quick--the hotel had learned from previous
years and gave out the registration forms to be filled in when you
got into line, so by the time your turn at the window came, you were
done with it.  In our case it took a little longer because we wanted
two rooms with two double beds each, next to each other, and on a
low floor.  Well, you can't have everything--we ended up on the 15th
floor.  Also, Kate was trying to get Cynthia's name into the
computer so that when she showed up she could get another key.  And
finally, both Mark and Kate had to go to another desk to get second
keys for the rooms (you'd think that the hotel would know that a
double room should have two keys).

After checking in we popped down to registration, which didn't
officially open until 3:30 but opened at 3:15 for pre-registerees.
They didn't really have their act together for the hand-outs though
(they didn't have packets this years, just stacks of sheets) and we
had to go back three times to get everything.  We then ate and came
back to hit the huckster room.  There were more book dealers this
year--a good sign--but not all the tables were open yet.  I saw Saul
Jaffe and we talked about the future of Usenet et al for a while.

2.2  Panel: Soviet Year in Space

When everyone finally showed up we went out for dinner at our usual
Chinese restaurant and then hit the Star Market for munchies on the
way back.  At 9PM I went to the "Soviet Year in Space" panel, which
was sponsored by the Boston L5 Chapter.  It was very
slow-moving--most of the hour was spent in detailing the Soviet
program from its inception, complete with boring slides.  Not much
was said about their current ventures.

There wasn't much in the way of parties Friday night--we dropped
into the Hobokon in '92 Party briefly but went to bed fairly early.

3.  Saturday

Saturday morning we were going to go to a coffee shop across the
street for breakfast, but the wind chill factor was about 10 below
so we settled for Brighams in the Prudential Center itself--still a
chilly walk.  Kate and I stopped in the liquor store on the way back
to pick up a bottle of wine--we decided to move up in the world and
get one with a cork, so we had to buy a corkscrew also.

3.1  Panel: Golem Legend

At 11:30 we went to the "Cliches in Fantasy Film" panel, but it
wasn't going to start until after LABYRINTH finished, which
obviously wasn't going to be until about noon, so we proceeded
directly to the "Golem Legend" panel.  Unfortunately the panel
leader didn't (we discovered later that he was on the "Cliches"
panel, an example of poor scheduling if ever there was one), so
about a dozen of us sat around for ten minutes waiting.  I kept
telling Mark he should lead the discussion but he didn't want to.
Finally someone said he had come to find out just what a golem was.
I convinced Mark to explain it to him and pretty soon, everyone had
pulled their chairs into a circle and was discussing the golem and
Jewish legends in general.  At the end I asked if anyone could
recommend any good golem novels and one person said that I really
should read the recent article in LAN'S LANTERN about golems--the
one that Mark wrote!  When I pointed out that Mark had written it, a
couple of people told him how good they thought it was.  It turned
out that one person (Mark Blackman) there was a regular LAN'S
LANTERN contributor and another (Mark Keller) had written a really
great article on alternate histories in THE PROPER BOSKONIAN.  (Gee,
'Mark' sure is a popular name!) We started talking about alternate
histories in the hallway and Keller mentioned that the all-time
worst was John Jakes's BLACK IN TIME.  He started describing it and
a woman who came along just then recognized the description and
commented that it was the worst science fiction she had ever read.
Keller plans on publishing his alternate history bibliography in a
year or two--I can't wait!

3.2  Panel: Gay Characters and Themes

Because this discussion ran over, I got to "Gay Characters and
Themes" late.  The room for this was packed, but the discussion
wasn't particularly good.  There seemed to be two schools of
thought: one group thought that gay characters should be just
another kind of character; the other thought that it was important
to show how gay characters dealt with societal problems.  It boils
down to whether the society being described is tolerant or not, and
both sides seemed to think that not enought was being done to show
their point of view.  There was some question as to when the first
AIDS-related science fiction would be published, but no real answer
(obviously).

3.3  Art Show

I then took a quick run through the art show, running into Saul
again.  He was wearing his SF-Lovers' Digest t-shirt, which reminded
me that I should have brought mine.  Oh well....  The art show
itself was about average--a lot of media-related works, a fair
amount of cutesy fantasy, and some really good pieces either not for
sale or priced out of most people's range.  The art shows are
becoming more art displays and less art sales than they used to be,
I think.

3.4  What's Boston Without a Lobster Dinner?

Kate and I wanted to go to the "USSR/US Manned Space Mission"
presentation at 5PM, but I definitely wanted to make the "Electronic
Fanac" panel at 7PM and Kate wanted to go to the "Warpods"
presentation at 7 also, so we all decided to go to dinner at 5.  We
went to the Atlantic Seafood Company, where I had an excellent
lobster dinner.  We weren't quite finished by 7, but I probably
didn't miss too much at the panel.  SF-Lovers' Digest will be
mentioned in an article in the April issue of OMNI.  Jerry Boyajian
was there with an article on Sherlock Holmes for me (yet more books
on the subject to look for!).

3.5  Mod.movies is Reborn

After the panel started to dissolve, several people convinced me to
volunteer to moderate "mod.movies" on Usenet.  (Actually, it's going
to be rec.arts.movies.reviews.)  Shows what a glass of wine and an
after-dinner drink will do!

3.6  Readercon

There were more parties Saturday night, but the elevator situation
was a real mess.  We took the elevator up to the 22nd floor where we
dropped in on the Readercon party.  Readercon is a new convention
emphasizing (you guessed it!) reading.  The first one will be this
June in Brookline and Gene Wolfe will be the Guest of Honor.  The
hotel situation is a little strange (the hotel won't take credit
cards, only checks, and normally won't take cancellations withing
three weeks of the date, though the Con committee thinks they can
get them to make an exception for us--given the non- subsidized
nature of this convention as compared to a business convention.)
Kate may lead a discussion group on the modern horror novel--I keep
telling Dave he should lead one on the "Gor" novels.

3.7  UMassSFS 25-Year Reunion Planned

Then we walked down to the 19th floor where we dropped in on the BoF
(Bunch of Fans) Party.  (BoF is a Western Massachusetts fan group.)
Mark, Dave, Joe Ross, and I got to talking about the last UMassSFS
reunion that was held at Dave's place about ten years ago.  We
started saying there should be another soon, one thing led to
another, and before we knew what had happened, we realized that 1989
was the 25th anniversary of the founding of UMassSFS and also the
year of Noreascon III.  So we decided to organize a 25-year re-union
to be held at Noreascon III.  One of the people still in the Amherst
area will get the list of all the past officers, Joe Ross will get
their addresses from the Alumni Association, and he and/or I will
try to contact all of them.  We also plan to advertise in the alumni
newsletter and fannish publications.  This should be a lot of
fun--after all, we have two years to plan it!

3.8  HASA Party

Then we walked back down to our rooms on the 15th floor.  I called
down to the 6th floor to make sure the HASA party was still going on
before I walked all the way down.  It was so I did.  Sure enough,
there were Mikki Barry, Charlie Wingate, Jonathan Trudel, and six
copies of Rich Rosen, along with an open copy of the Gideon Bible.
After hanging out there for a while, I walked back up to the 15th
floor and went to sleep.

4.  Sunday

4.1  Godzilla Makes an Appearance

Sunday morning was Brigham's again, then back for the "Godzilla"
panel.  Billed as "Everything you always wanted to know about
Godzilla," this turned out to be a Boxboro gag, with someone showing
up in a Godzilla suit and answering silly questions from the
audience.  A real waste of time if you were hoping for a real film
panel--which we were.

4.2  Whither Boskone?

We skipped the "L5 Presents the Mars Underground" to pack and check
out, because we all wanted to go to the "Look Ahead to Boskone '88."
Some back- tracking is necessary at this point.  NESFA has been
saying for several years now that Boskone is getting too large--this
year's attendance was estimated at 4000.  As a perspective, Boskone
VI in 1969 (our first) was about 260 people and Noreascon I in 1971
was only 2100.  Next year when the Hynes Auditorium re-opens, the
Sheraton will close the temporary exhibit space that it "borrowed"
from the parking garage area.  The bottom line is that the current
size is too large for the new Sheraton without the Hynes and too
small to make renting the Hynes a fiscal possibility.  Also, NESFA
does not WANT a larger convention--they want a smaller one.  So
starting with this year's to some extent, and continuing for the
next few years, NESFA will be down-scaling Boskone by emphasizing
literature, art, and fannish activities (like filking) and
de-emphasizing media.  Unfortunately, all this got tangled up in the
other problem--rowdies causing problems with the hotel.  Friday
night there were three false fire alarms (I slept through all of
them) and the Con committee was ready to cancel next year's Boskone
on the spot.  By Saturday night things had gotten better--the people
thought to be responsible for the Friday nights alarms were not
members, but friends of a con member, and the hotel could see that
most con members were being as helpful as possible in preventing
this sort of problem in the future.

Anyway, the meeting had two major "bones of contention": should
NESFA de- emphasize media and what could NESFA do to keep the
rowdies out?  One of the people from NESFA made the mistake of
saying that in order to get "more of the sort of people we want" at
Boskones, they would be de-emphasizing media.  After a lot of heated
discussion, I think the conclusion we all came to was that the
de-emphasizing of media was being done to focus the convention and
had nothing to do with the type of people who liked media.  A
smaller, less advertised convention would, by its very nature,
attract fewer hangers-on than a large one.  In spite of the (in my
opinion) reasonableness of all this, there were those who felt that
NESFA had some sort of obligation to offer big media presentations
because, after all, there were people who liked this sort of thing
and they wanted to come to Boskone and so Boskone should offer it.
(I suspect you can guess my opinion of this from the previous
sentence.)  The bottom line is that NESFA won't--there will be no
video room (though they may go back to closed-circuit video as a
means of keeping people in their rooms rather than wandering the
halls looking for entertainment), there will be no cinematic
blockbusters or major media presentations, and in general people who
attend only for media will have to find another convention to go to
for that.

The other, somewhat surprising, suggestion to be put forth was the
drastic scaling down of parties.  It used to be that parties were
occasions for people to get together and talk; now they are, in many
cases, a giant drinking bash.  Many of the hangers-on show up
because of all the free booze available.  The suggestions in this
area ranged from no seeding of parties (to keep the size down), to
spot-checking parties to make sure no under-age people were being
served alcohol, to banning alcohol altogether from open parties
(those advertised by the Con committee).  It was agreed that there
was no way to ban liquor altogether but that it would certainly make
a difference if only private parties were serving it.  Stay tuned
till next year for the results of all this.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 09:34 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: American address for Conspiracy membership

I have lost the form with the address (and price level info) for the
American "office" of Conspiracy, which I plan to attend. Can any of
you give me the address, with or without the current pricing
structure? I was a presupporting member.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>
Bell/work: 818/351-2351 x1411
Bell/home: 714/621-3581 (w/answerdroid)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 87 15:22:00 GMT
From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey)
Subject: Re: American address for Conspiracy membership

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>I have lost the form with the address (and price level info) for
>the American "office" of Conspiracy, which I plan to attend. Can
>any of you give me the address, with or without the current pricing
>structure? I was a presupporting member.

From Conspiracy 87 PR2:
U.S. Agents - West :  Bryan Barrett
                      P.O. Box 6202
                      Hayward
                      CA 94540

              East :  Bill and Mary Burns
                      23 Kensington Court
                      Hempstead
                      NY 11550

U.K. address is : P.O. Box 43
                  Cambridge
                  CB1 3JJ, U.K.

Sorry I don't know any phone numbers or email addresses.

The PR also lists agents for Australia, Finland, France,
Netherlands, New Zealand, Poland, Portugal, West Germany &
Yugoslavia - I won't post addresses unless asked.

Regards,

Peter Mabey
phm@stl
mcvax!ukc!stl!phm
+44-279-29531 x3596

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Mar 87 0831-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #74
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bradley (4 msgs) & King (7 msgs) &
                     Author Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 87 21:49:19 GMT
From: wjvax!miker@rutgers.edu (Mike Ryan)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!?)

zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes:
>> Lythande is actually female.  However, her vow to the Blue Star
>> is such that if anyone ever finds out she is female, she dies, so
>> she masquerades as a
>
>Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male?  Or does
>she just have masculine features?  Or both?

Lythande is an Adept of the Blue Star, kind of weak magicians. Their
power is linked to the fact that they must all protect a secret.
Lythande's secret is that 'he' is a she. I forget which fine volume
this comes out in, but it's one of the early, read 'good', ones.

I don't think she dies if someone pegs her as a sheila, she just
loses her powers and then won't be able to fight the powers of
darkness at the end of time with her fellow Adepts , who are mostly
male. Lythande is very!  protective of her secret, disguising it
with masculine features, rough behavior, and , I believe, magic. As
in the case of a few female Naval officers I've known, she is a more
manly 'he' than most of the men around.

michael j ryan
{ucbvax!decwrl!qubix,mordor!turtlevax,ihnp4!pesnta}!wjvax!miker

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 23:59:36 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage)
Subject: (spoiler) Re: Lythande's vow

First off, I completely agree with the opinion that the _Lythande_
cover was a mistake.  She most definitely has an
androgynous/male-ish face; the inhabitants of Sanctuary consider her
a "beardless youth" but dangerous enough to be worth avoiding.

She got her powers by learning enough from the adepts of the Blue
Star while disguised as a man that they could not deny her adept
status even once they discovered the truth.  But to get back at her
for the deception, they saddled her with 2 vows instead of one
(accuracy of this part may suffer due to my overloaded memory): her
major vow is to keep her gender secret -- the penalty for its
discovery is much like discovery of a magician's true name in other
magic systems; namely, the one who speaks the secret to her gains
her power (subtle difference from power *over* her, here, since that
is a corollary result but not primary).  She also cannot eat with a
man, even if she doesn't know a man is present (so she doesn't eat
with anyone for fear of having a man in drag observe her).

She's tall (approx 6'?) and skinny, with loose clothing and a severe
expression.  Was there anyone familiar with the character who was
not at least slightly miffed at the cover to _Lythande_?

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 13:18:16 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!)

zarifes@bnrmtv.UUCP (Kenneth Zarifes) writes:
>Does Lythande use magic to cast an illusion of being male?  Or does
>she just have masculine features?  Or both?

Since Lythande has kept her secret from people with whom she learned
magic I would tend to think that she just has masculine features.
Presumably if she used magic to keep her secret other magicians
would be able to discover the nature of the magic she had cast on
herself and hence deduce her secret.

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 87 20:05:44 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: (spoiler) Re: Lythande's vow

I believe the bit about not eating when (other) men are present is
generic to all blue star adepts, and not specific to Lythande.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 87 22:28:53 GMT
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when
reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a
cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much better
one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE.  When the Losers are gathered together
in Derry, Maine, and are discussing their amazement that the local
child-killings in Derry are not being carried by the major networks,
a reference is made to the killings in Castle Rock, Maine, by a
"crazy cop".  Castle Rock is the place where Johnny Smith, the
tragic prophet of THE DEAD ZONE, uncovers that a mass murderer of
children is the deputy of the Castle Rock Sherriff.

Does King do this often?  Has he ever mentioned that all some of his
novels occur in the same arena?

Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uw-beaver,sun,allegra,sb6,lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 20:02:00 GMT
From: 6100192@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Sundeep Amrute)
Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes:
>Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when
>reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a
>cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much better
>one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE.
>
>Does King do this often?  Has he ever mentioned that all some of
>his novels occur in the same arena?

Yes, King does this fairly often.  His short story, "The Body",
takes place in Castle Rock, and makes a passing reference to CUJO A
more interesting cross reference occurs in later on in IT, during
the flashback to the fire at the Black Spot.  King includes a young
Dick Hallorann , whose mysterious "intuition" allows him to escape
from the blazing building.  Hallorann had first appeared as a
psychic hotel chef in THE SHINING.

BITNET: 6100192@PUCC
UUCP: ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET.6100192

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 19:55:02 GMT
From: reed!ellen@rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes:
>Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when
>reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a
>cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much better
>one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE.  Does King do this often?  Has he
>ever mentioned that all some of his novels occur in the same arena?

Yes, it happens a lot in King books.  Last I recall, the story
behind CUJO (which I may not have gotten accurately, as I read it
standing up in a Waldenbooks) has the rabid dog actually sort of
possessed by the "crazy cop," Frank Dodd, from DEAD ZONE, and as far
as I could tell King seemed to be leading up in a series of books to
a story about some great overarching evil force in the region.  I
suspect that 'SALEM'S LOT would've been renamed Castle Rock if he'd
gotten the idea for continuity earlier on in his career.  I haven't
had a chance to read IT yet, though I am planning a massive horror
gorge-out (no, not the Cornell kind) when it comes out in paperback.
I think Castle Rock also features in some of his short stories,
either from SKELETON CREW or DIFFERENT SEASONS, though I don't have
my books with me to check (ah, the luxury of an in-house Macintosh
escapes me :-) Like comic continuity, King's leaves a lot to be
desired, but it's fun to occasionally pick up on.

Ellen M. Eades
...!tektronix!reed!ellen
verdix!ogcvax!reed!ellen

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 09:16:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

From:   fluke!moriarty  (Jeff Meyer)

> Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when
> reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a
> cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much
> better one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE.  When the Losers are gathered
> together in Derry, Maine, and are discussing their amazement that
> the local child-killings in Derry are not being carried by the
> major networks, a reference is made to the killings in Castle
> Rock, Maine, by a "crazy cop".  Castle Rock is the place where
> Johnny Smith, the tragic prophet of THE DEAD ZONE, uncovers that a
> mass murderer of children is the deputy of the Castle Rock
> Sherriff.
>
> Does King do this often?  Has he ever mentioned that all some of
> his novels occur in the same arena?

Yes, King does this often. No, he's never explicitly said that all
or some of his novels take place in the same "universe", but it's
implicit in the works themselves. All of the cross-references are
too numerous to list, but there is the occasional reference to such
fictional places as Castle Rock, (Jeru)Salem's Lot, and Chamberlain
(the setting of CARRIE), all in the same general region of Maine
(basicly, along Interstate 95 from around Lewiston up to Bangor).
In fact, Castle Rock is also the setting for both CUJO and "The
Body" (upon which the film STAND BY ME was based), and Sheriff
Bannerman is a minor character in both of those as well as THE DEAD
ZONE.

Probably the most obscure cross-reference is that of Stovington
Preparatory Academy. It's the fictional school to which Chuck
Chatsworth --- whom Johnny Smith tutors in THE DEAD ZONE --- goes,
and from which Jack Torrance in THE SHINING is fired as a teacher
before the opening of that book. Stovington, Vermont (where the
school is located) is also the site for the government's secondary
plague research center in THE STAND.

But it's obvious that despite these cross-references, some books
cannot "co-exist" in the same universe as others. THE DEAD ZONE, for
instance, refers to CARRIE as a novel. And the events in THE STAND
preclude any of the other stories set after 1985 (or 1980, if you go
by the hardcover) from happening, since the entire world is just
about wiped out by a plague.

THE TALISMAN and THE EYES OF THE DRAGON are related to each other,
but there's nothing that I can recall that connects them with any of
the other books, unless you are wont to believe that the character
Flagg in EYES is the same as Randall Flagg from THE STAND. THE DARK
TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER also does not seem to be connected to anything
else, though I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in the
forthcoming (in April) sequel, THE DRAWING OF THE THREE, that the
setting for this series is also the Territories. CHRISTINE is the
only one of the "Earth-bound" novels that has no cross-references to
the others.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 19:28:43 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>Yes, King does this often. No, he's never explicitly said that all
>or some of his novels take place in the same "universe", but it's
>implicit in the works themselves. All of the cross-references are
>too numerous to list, but there is the occasional reference to such
>fictional places as Castle Rock, (Jeru)Salem's Lot, and Chamberlain
>(the setting of CARRIE), all in the same general region of Maine
>(basicly, along Interstate 95 from around Lewiston up to Bangor).
>In fact, Castle Rock is also the setting for both CUJO and "The
>Body" (upon which the film STAND BY ME was based), and Sheriff
>Bannerman is a minor character in both of those as well as THE DEAD
>ZONE.

   I just thought it would be interesting to point out that Steven
King is doing with Maine what H.P. Lovecraft did with Massachusetts.

   Does anyone feel that Kings' writing is of the same caliber as
Lovecrafts' (e.g. low, but nonetheless entrancing)?

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 87 21:47:45 GMT
From: jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini)
Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes:
> moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes:
>>Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but I noticed, when
>>reading Stephen King's gigantic novel IT, that there seems to be a
>>cross-reference to events in another of King's books (a much
>>better one, I think), THE DEAD ZONE.  Does King do this often?
>>Has he ever mentioned that all some of his novels occur in the
>>same arena?
>
> Yes, it happens a lot in King books.

Now for my 2 cents...

In different seasons, 'The Breathing Method' is a tale which is set
in a club in New York City (I think it is NY, but it is a club). The
same club also appears in one of the short stories in Skeleton Crew,
the one about a man who kill whomever he shakes hands with.

In Night Shift, there is a short story about Jerusalems Lot. Nuff
said on that one.

In Different Seasons "The Body", there is a reference to Night
Shift. Something about a collection of nightmares published into a
book of stories...

Castle Rock does creep up quite a bit.

Did anyone notice in Cats Eye where Cindy Clark was reading "Pet
Semetary"?

Lastly, I would like to read King's "The Dark Tower". Does anyone
know where I can get a copy of this? Ihave read everything else by
him but I cannot seem to find this on.

James J. Alpigini
Raytheon SSD, W. Main Rd.
Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087
{cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,uiucdcs}!rayssd!jja

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 17:18:58 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Stephen King Continuity -- THE DEAD ZONE and IT

jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes:
>Lastly, I would like to read King's "The Dark Tower". Does anyone
>know where I can get a copy of this? Ihave read everything else by
>him but I cannot seem to find this on.

If Dark Tower is the book I'm thinking of, the first of the
so-called "Gunfighter Trilogy", then you can look forward to paying
upwards of $120.00 for a **second** edition!  I considered this as a
collectors item, but I couldn't see paying that much for a second
edition. To find one in your area I'd suggest going to a good book
store (not a chain store), and asking.  I don't know the publisher
but I believe that only 5,000 or so of each printing were made.  If
you are in the San Francisco Bay Area try getting in contact with
Future Fantasy in Palo Alto.

Good Luck,

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 87 18:36:15 GMT
From: rjf@ukc.ac.uk (R.J.Faichney)
Subject: Dr Modesto query

If anyone knows the author's name of a book titled 'Dr Modesto' or
something *very* similar, I'd be really keen to find out. I read
this book years ago and it has stuck in my mind ever since. It's
about the individual and his/her relationship with society, which
sounds heavy, but it's very funny.

If you have any info about this book and/or it's author, please
email me and I'll post a summary.

Robin Faichney
UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!rjf
JANET: rjf@ukc.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Mar 87 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #75
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Terminology (5 msgs) &
                               Conventions (3 msgs) & 
                               An Obituary &
                               Influences on SF (2 msgs)
				
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 20:21:37 GMT
From: vnend@ukecc.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction (was Re: 'SF' versus
Subject: 'SCI-FI')

krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes:
>How about "Lord of the Rings" as Red and "Starship Troopers" as
>Blue?  There is practically no science and technology in "Lord of
>the Rings" and it abounds with magic and other arcana.  There is
>speculation on the future of humanity, our technology and politics,
>and alien races which *might* actually exist, in "Starship
>Troopers", but no magic or occult/arcane components.

   I'll go along with LotR for fantasy (without syaing that it is
the absolute best), but I don't think that ST is a good example of
extreme SF.  Or at least, I can think of one better. You can say
that ST has some 'soft' traits, most especially an FTL drive. There
is one story that I can think of that is good SF that avoids this
potentially fantastic trait: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon". If you
want a definitive, 'safe' SF story, my vote is for this one.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 87 22:39:37 GMT
From: endot!hinch@rutgers.edu (hold horns high)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

I was particularily pleased when, in the course of some promised
catch-up reading, I came across in Delaney's _Triton_, Appendix A, a
quite reasonable, readable essay on the definition of science
fiction -- about a dozen pages in all.  He comments especially on
the role of *science* in enlarging the rhetorical space of what is
possible rather than impossible.

Frederick Hinchliffe 2nd
ENDOT, Inc.  11001 Cedar Ave  Cleveland, OH 44106
Usenet: decvax!cwruecmp!endot!hinch
216.229.8900

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 87 21:56:33 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) writes:
>dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>> Other fantasies don't bother with laws or allow virtually
>> anything (cf "Her Majesty's Wizard" (author's name forgotten)
>> where the magician may do anything if he can compose a poem to
>> describe it).
>
>It's by Stasheff.  I agree with your general point, but you've
>picked a bad example; magic in HMW does obey certain specific laws
>following from medieval religious beliefs; divine right of kings is
>one such.

What happens when a wizard composes a poem about a king who has no
divine rights?

I like fantasies which have certain laws which all magic must obey.
Then it's fun to come up with contradictions and paradoxes.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 00:56:42 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

elron@ihlpm.ATT.COM (Gary F. York) writes:
>All of this suggests that a three dimensional classification system
>might be more appropriate:
>
>Emphasis on charaters vs. emphasis on technology (the CT continum)
>and "everyday" reality vs. strange reality (the ES continum).

This is a really good idea. I never meant to argue that there is any
kind of clear difference between "science fiction" and "fantasy",
but there is some kind of scale, I think people will agree... You're
right, Gary, two dimensions are too few to begin to describe the
variations.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 05:37:11 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction

dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
> daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>> I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for
>> instance.  [...] Why?  Critters the size and mass of dragons
>> can't fly under earth conditions.

Sure they can.  Read The Flight of Dragons, by Peter Dickson (or was
it Dickenson?  Jayembee?), illus. Wayne Anderson.  Sorry, don't have
a publisher or ISBN, but I'm pretty sure one of those last names I
gave is correct.

Creatures as large as dragons can fly lighter-than-air (Dickenson
justifies this very convincingly); creatures as small as
fire-lizards can fly aerodynamically (the way Earth birds of that
size do).

>> Add in conservation of momentum and conservation of energy for
>> teleportation.

Not to mention time travel - I'm sure most sf-lovers readers
remember the recent furor over time travel (and how inconclusive it
was).

USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
     think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 05:24:49 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes:

>4.2  Whither Boskone?
>So starting with this year's to some extent, and continuing for the
>next few years, NESFA will be down-scaling Boskone by emphasizing
>literature, art, and fannish activities (like filking) and
>de-emphasizing media.  Unfortunately, all this got tangled up in
>the other problem--rowdies causing problems with the hotel.  Friday
>night there were three false fire alarms (I slept through all of
>them) and the Con committee was ready to cancel next year's Boskone
>on the spot.  By Saturday night things had gotten better--the
>people thought to be responsible for the Friday nights alarms were
>not members, but friends of a con member, and the hotel could see
>that most con members were being as helpful as possible in
>preventing this sort of problem in the future.
>
>Anyway, the meeting had two major "bones of contention": should
>NESFA de- emphasize media and what could NESFA do to keep the
>rowdies out?  One of the people from NESFA made the mistake of
>saying that in order to get "more of the sort of people we want" at
>Boskones, they would be de-emphasizing media.  After a lot of
>heated discussion, I think the conclusion we all came to was that
>the de-emphasizing of media was being done to focus the convention
>and had nothing to do with the type of people who liked media.  A
>smaller, less advertised convention would, by its very nature,
>attract fewer hangers-on than a large one.  In spite of the (in my
>opinion) reasonableness of all this, there were those who felt that
>NESFA had some sort of obligation to offer big media presentations
>because, after all, there were people who liked this sort of thing
>and they wanted to come to Boskone and so Boskone should offer it.

I was there too, and on the other side of this discussion, so let me
make the point I did there.

There is a place (an important one) for special interest conventions
in the sf convention pantheon.  Indeed I have chaired Star Trek as
well as "straight" sf conventions in the past.  I think Readercon is
a good idea, so are filk cons, gaming cons, etc...

Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone
among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total
spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major
regional status.

This question did not come up when the Regency people, or the
Burroughs folks, or any of the "traditional" fringe fandoms joined
sf cons, because the numbers were still strongly in favor of the old
mainline.  But the numbers of people who take their sf through film
and tv (and attend cons) has reached or exceeded the readers (of
which I am one as well) and they feel threatened (not physically, of
course, but of losing their corner of the world).

Although I read sf for many years, I came into con fandom through
Star Trek.  Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media
cons because the people who are now running them are either
professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who
know cons only through the pro presentations.  When I ran the 10th
Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the
reaction"The program book is free, I can get in the con suite, you
mean this ice cream is free?"  You get the idea...

So this is my point.  The major regionals do have an obligation to
cover the full spectrum of sf.  This does not mean they can exceed
their facilities or have to put up with destruction of hotel
property.  But limiting the scope of programming will not effect
those people who don't come for the programming anyway.  So what is
the solution?

There is no one solution.  Convention staffers (and committee
members) roving the halls all night helped stop vandalism at August
Party.  Limiting membership, either through limiting publicity or a
formal limit or both may have to be implemented.  Certainly we, as a
fandom, are creative enough to come up with some ideas!

NESFA can do as they please (isn't freedom wonderful), I thank them
for the panel that allowed us to discuss this at the con.  Let's
keep that kind of communication open.

Now, let's keep the discussion on the net of this subject CIVIL
folks.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 87 22:03:33 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Responsibilities of Cons (was Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report)

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rich Kolker) writes:
>ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes:
>>[ ... ] there were those who felt that NESFA had some sort of
>>obligation to offer big media presentations because, after all,
>>there were people who liked this sort of thing and they wanted to
>>come to Boskone and so Boskone should offer it.

Evelyn disagreed with this idea; Rich responded in part:

>Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone
>among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total
>spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major
>regional status.

Well, I wasn't at this Boskone, but I have been a faithful attendee
since Bosklone, and I'd like to put my two cents in. Let me say
about myself that I am a reader, always was; I've somewhat involved
in fandom but have never (yet) run a con. I always went to Boskone
but until three years ago had never gone to a panel. I hit the
huckster's, the artshow, the movies, the parties, the fen. (Yes, I
was a reader; I just didn't go to the panels.)

But although it may sound incongruous, I disagree with what Rich is
saying. I don't think that Boskone, or any well-established regional
con, has an obligation to the fen of the region, other than those
fen involved in putting on Boskone. If partyfen want a partycon,
they can put one on. If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on,
and do. If Trekfen, etc.

The question really is who NESFA wants to attract and serve. And
it's up to them. I see fan-run conventions as their gatherings to
which they are inviting me. Sure, I pay admission, but that's the
same as pot-luck dinners. They are nice enough to do the work of
running a con and inviting me to their gathering, and I do my part
by providing some money. Or volunteering. Or helping run the next
one.

But it's something they are doing for themselves, and inviting us
because they think it's more fun when there are lots of new people
to meet and talk and exchange ideas with. They are a club, not a
public service organization. If NESFA, or any sf club, feels that it
has an obligation to local fen not involved with the club (other
than inasmuch as all fen are joined together in this mad community),
that's fine, but it is the club's decision.

If NESFA, or any club, decides that it is no longer fun to have
X-fen (fill in the blank) at their gatherings, that's their
prerogative. If the X-fen are left out in the cold with nowhere to
go for their X-activities, that is a sign that they should take some
responsibilty for themselves. (X-Con 1, I can see it now...)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 02:07:23 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rick Kolker) writes:
> Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone
> among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total
> spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major
> regional status.

As someone who has attended 16 of the last 19 Boskones (starting
with Boskone VI in 1969, which had 260 attendees!), I will just
point out that this long history did not include media to any great
extent for a large part of that time.  It was only in the late 1970s
that media became such a major part of Boskone.  I remember the
media highlight of an early Boskone being Bela Lugosi in WHITE
ZOMBIE!

> This question did not come up when the Regency people, or the
> Burroughs folks, or any of the "traditional" fringe fandoms joined
> sf cons, because the numbers were still strongly in favor of the
> old mainline.

Also, the Regency people and the Burroughs people usually had only
*one* event each at a convention (the Regency tea and the Burroughs
Dum-Dum).  Boskone will still show at least one film--but I suspect
the media fen want more than that.

I love media SF--anyone who reads rec.arts.movies knows that Mark
and I are major media fans.  We run a media APA and a private media
convention (both are full, so no requests please).  But I still
applaud NESFA's attempt to return Boskone to its origins.  I *know*
what it used to be like--and I hope it can go back to that.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 87 22:16:18 GMT
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Richard Sapir, co-creator of THE DESTROYER, is dead

Just a note -- Richard Sapir, who co-wrote the DESTROYER series with
Warren Murphy, died several weeks ago.  Sapir's caustic wit and
black sense of humor (and view of world events) elevated what could
have been another boring blood-and-guts series into a satire of
heroes, villains, America, and just about anything you could name.
He will be missed.

Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uw-beaver,sun,allegra,sb6,lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 87 18:40 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Influences List:  SF <-> non-SF

The other day, I was watching one of my favorite old movies (The
Enemy Below), and it occured to me that there are quite a few cases
where non-SF sources had been used in producing some good (and bad)
SF.  These three occured to me right off:

   The Enemy Below (Great WWII flick)
      Fine early Star Trek episode whose name escapes me.  First
      episode with Romulans and cloaking device, if I remember
      correctly.

    High Noon (Great western -- only Gary Cooper film I ever liked)
      Outland (spelling)?  Sean Connery as sheriff in outer space.

    The Tempest (If you don't know this one, you're hurting)
      Forbidden Planet

The degree to which plot elements were borrowed varies from one
example to the other, but in all cases the influence is quite clear.
Can anyone else come up with any (or, has this list been done
already)?  I am interested in influnces that go either way, in both
written and visual media.  Mail to me, and if the results are
interesting, I'll post.

Richard Welty
welty@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 87 18:09:43 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Influences List:  SF <-> non-SF

WELTY@ge-crd.arpa writes:
>Can anyone else come up with any (or, has this list been done
>already)?

How about:

   Moby Dick, by Melville > Nova, by Delaney
   Various Chinese sources > Cordwainer Smith's stories

Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 Mar 87 0904-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Mar 87 0904-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:

                   Books - MacCaffrey (2 msgs) &
                           Zelazny (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 02:42:18 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: fantasy and science fiction

dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:

>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern.  The
>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous.

I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but I
would not consider it impossible for this to occur.  The Red Star
never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away
from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars
is...

>Also, how did the threads get from the Red Star (really a planet)
>to Pern?  I can only conclude that McCaffrey did not really care
>that the laws of physics were violated in her book.  This is not to
>say that

``ARRHENIUS?  EUREKA!  MYCORRHIZA. . .''

I suggest you re-read your high school biology textbook.  McCaffrey
describes just about the only situation where the Arrhenius spore
phenomenon can occur.  (There are *really* impossible examples in
other books: WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE has club moss doing an Arrhenius
stunt from Earth to Bronson Beta.  Millions of years ago, no less.)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 07:41:11 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Pern improbabilities (was Re: fantasy and science fiction)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque):
>
>>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern.  The
>>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous.
>I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but
>I would not consider it impossible for this to occur.  The Red Star
>never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away
>from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars
>is...

The Red Star was in what is know as a chaotic orbit.  A chaotic
orbit is one which crosses or comes near to crossing the orbit of
the major planets.  In our solar system only asteriods and comets
are in these kinds of orbits.  Bodies in chaotic orbits eventually
either impact one of the major planets or are ejected from the solar
system.

In the Pern system, the Red Star was captured from outside the
system and is in a chaotic orbit.  However the Red Star is not a
asteroid; it's a major planet at least the size of Mars.  Because
it's so big, there should be a sizable effect on the orbit of any
planet which it comes near, such as Pern.  This remember that the
Red Star comes close enough for thread to cross for 50 years at
time.  After even one of these passes, I would expect Pern to be in
a drastically different orbit, causing major changes in the climate.

Actually, thing that is most ridiculous obout the orbital mechanics
is that the Red Star and Pern stay in more or less the same position
relative to each other for 50 years.  As you say, the Red Star was
further away from Pern than is the moon from us, which means that
the different orbital velocities would quickly cause them to move
apart.  Even after a few months they would be far away from each
other.

>>Also, how did the threads get from the Red Star (really a planet)
>>to Pern?  I can only conclude that McCaffrey did not really care
>>that the laws of physics were violated in her book.
>``ARRHENIUS?  EUREKA!  MYCORRHIZA. . .''
>
>I suggest you re-read your high school biology textbook.  McCaffrey
>describes just about the only situation where the Arrhenius spore
>phenomenon can occur.  (There are *really* impossible examples in
>other books: WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE has club moss doing an Arrhenius
>stunt from Earth to Bronson Beta.  Millions of years ago, no less.)

Maybe you'd better look up Arrhenius' work instead.  The idea of
Panspermia was about MICROscopic spores being pushed around by light
pressure.  The Thread (and thus the spores which it comes from) was
most decidedly MACROscopic.  I suppose the spores could have
sprouted light sails (sounds unlikely) but the real question is: How
did the spores escape the atmosphere of the Red Star in the first
place?

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 18:17:56 GMT
From: hoptoad!laura@rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. W. James) writes:
>My only remaining question is to Laura. What book is it that you
>hand out? I give "Lord of Light" away every chance I get. And here
>I thought I was the only one.

I give out lots of Zelazny.  It is interesting in that I have asked
the question ``what do you like more -- Creatures of Light and
Darkness or Lord of Light'' more than a thousand times -- and with
only 4 exceptions, the book that people prefer is the one they read
first.  I read *Creatures* first, so I give that out more often.  I
have given away a large number of entire Amber collections.  And
others.  Damnation Alley goes over very well in certain high schools
-- and others prefer Isle of the Dead.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 21:05:21 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>I give out lots of Zelazny.  It is interesting in that I have asked
>the question ``what do you like more -- Creatures of Light and
>Darkness or Lord of Light'' more than a thousand times -- and with
>only 4 exceptions, the book that people prefer is the one they read
>first.  I read *Creatures* first, so I give that out more often.  I
>have given away a large number of entire Amber collections.  And
>others.  Damnation Alley goes over very well in certain high
>schools -- and others prefer Isle of the Dead.

Yep, Zelazny in any form is usually good stuff.  I was a bit
disappointed by Madwand, but you can't win 'em all.

I first read Creatures and Lord within a week of each other, and
like them equally.  My favorite at any one moment really depends on
my mood at the time.

"Jack Of Shadows" is very good.  I like "Roadmarks", too.

The Amber books got off to a good start, but have gotten rather
complex and tangled.  Seems like everybody is getting more and more
powerful.  While this could be considered character growth, it sure
was easier to understand when only Dworkin could draw a trump...

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 05:15:50 GMT
From: jhunix!ecf_ety@rutgers.edu (Berserker Bob)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

   In _Lords of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen who have
extended their lifespan through "soul transferance [sp?]" into a
clone type body of their choosing.  Through this exchange they gain
certain "divine" abilities.  However, in _Creatures of Light and
Darkness_ the characters ARE gods.  Zelazny does well in both books
but _Lords of Light_ is by far the better.  It has a better
storyline, is easier to read, and is more enjoyable to the newcomer.
Also, this book is more relevent to everyday life (the situations
and events relate more to occurrences in everyday life).  You can
see a touch of the main character in each of us.  It is both
humorous and dramatic, but in a good, honest sci-fi way (No...I am
not going to participate in the SF vs. sci-fi debate...just accept
it for what I mean...I don't care what each term implies...they are
the same to me).

   These views and opinions are, of course, very biased, seeing as I
liked the Hindu myths better than I like the Egyptian myths.  The
Hindus love the art of keeping the mind elevated through outside
influences (no, not drugs!  ;-)) whereas, the Egyptian gods (except
Isis) are stringent masochists.  But, of course, this again is my
own opinion.  Any responses are welcome.

Cleave Drummond
seismo!jhunix!ins_atty

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 87 03:19:53 GMT
From: fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu (Dennis Griesser)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

ecf_ety@jhunix.UUCP (Cleave Drummond) writes:
>In _Lords of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen who have
>extended their lifespan through "soul transferance [sp?]" into a
>clone type body of their choosing.  Through this exchange they gain
>certain "divine" abilities.

The abilities develop with training.  You start off with mechanical
assistance, really think yourself into the part, and after awhile
don't need the gadgets anymore.  The powers are not the result of a
body transfer.  In fact, after a transfer, it takes awhile for them
to come back to full force.

>However, in _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ the characters ARE
>gods.

Wrong again.  There are numerous places where the technological
underpinnings of godhood are clearly shown.

>Zelazny does well in both books but _Lords of Light_ is by far the
>better.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion.  I love BOTH books.

>Also, this book is more relevent to everyday life (the situations
>and events relate more to occurrences in everyday life).

OK, when was the last time that, in punishment for losing a war
against the gods, your soul was removed from your body and
imprisoned in the radiation belt around the planet?  Or did you
mean your strange mental abilities that allow you to control
creatures of energy.  Or perhaps you fought with the gods against
the legions of the undead?  How about that time that you went to buy
a new body and they tried to stick you with a defective one?

Hell, I do this stuff every day!

>You can see a touch of the main character in each of us.  It is
>both humorous and dramatic, but in a good, honest sci-fi way.

I agree, although Sam is a bit too cynical to fit me well.

>These views and opinions are, of course, very biased, seeing as I
>liked the Hindu myths better than I like the Egyptian myths.  The
>Hindus love the art of keeping the mind elevated through outside
>influences (no, not drugs!  ;-)) whereas, the Egyptian gods (except
>Isis) are stringent masochists.

Knowing little or nothing about the Hindu and Egyptian myths, I bow
to your knowledge.

BTW, the title is Lord of Light.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 00:01:36 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>I give out lots of Zelazny.  It is interesting in that I have asked
>the question ``what do you like more -- Creatures of Light and
>Darkness or Lord of Light'' more than a thousand times -- and with
>only 4 exceptions, the book that people prefer is the one they read
>first.

I repeated this comment to a friend of mine at one point.  His
comment was, approximately, "I read Creatures of Light and Darkness
first, and thought it was better.  But when I reread them, I could
see that Lord of Light was actually the better book."

I would suggest to Laura that she try rereading both books
critically, and see if she still thinks Creatures of Light and
Darkness is the better book.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 87 00:36:19 GMT
From: alliant!steckel@rutgers.edu (Geoff Steckel)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

On leafing through CoLaD again, I was brought up short by quotes and
pastiches Zelazny uses.  Some I could identify per se (Sir Patrick
Spens) and some just gave me the 'I've read this before' feeling.
This is not to say he does it badly - far from it.  However, Lord of
Light _seems_ to be more original material.  This could be because
the Hindu mythology I've seen has been much more thoroughly
organized into 'stories' around which RZ could hang his text, as
opposed to the Egyptian themes which are much sparser.  Look at the
chapter beginnings for quotes from all over English (& American) & I
think some other language material.

On the subject of pastiches, the 'Traveller in Black' series of
stories (short stories anthologized & recently reissued) are
excellent outgrowths of the Dunsanian stories.  Read them if you
like Zelazny; it has a different flavor though.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 87 17:35:54 GMT
From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

dennisg@fritz.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) writes:
>ecf_ety@jhunix.UUCP (Cleave Drummond) writes:
>>      In _Lord of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen
>>who have extended their lifespan through "soul transferance [sp?]"
>>into a clone type body of their choosing.  Through this exchange
>>they gain

No, the crew of the Star of India were mutants with various
abilities.  This is why they had powers but the passengers didn't
and couldn't. Remember that when Brahma died and Kali took his place
she didn't pick up his powers, whatever they were. The reason they
used mechanical aids was twofold. First, many of their talents were
weak and the use of those powers would drain them.  For example, it
would take Agni several minutes of concentration to start a fire and
then leave him with a splitting headache where, using his wand, he
could score the surfaces of both moons in a matter of seconds with
no more effort than waving at them. Secondly, when they took over a
new body it did not have their mutation. As time passed their
"mental patterns" caused the body to resemble their original body
more and more, until they had their talent back. Remember what Yama
said about how, if they could discover the secret of true
immortality, their current bodies would eventually look just like
their original ones?

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 87 22:13:52 GMT
From: rph@nancy (Richard Hughey)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith Vaglienti) writes:
>>      In _Lord of Light_, the setting is a colony of Earthmen
>>who have extended their lifespan through "soul transferance
>>[sp?]" into a clone type body of their choosing.  Through this
>>exchange they gain
>
>No, the crew of the Star of India were mutants with various
>abilities.  This is why they had powers but the passengers didn't
>and couldn't. Remember that when Brahma died and Kali took his
>place she didn't pick up his powers, whatever they were. The reason
>they used mechanical aids was twofold. First,

No, the crew of the ship developed their powers by learning mass
hypnosis and using mind changing drugs.  Most in fact did not
develop their talents until on the planet for a while.  Only a few
of the 'gods' had inherent talents, which were caused by mutation or
the attribute enhancement drugs making permannent changes to their
atman.  Their technology made it possible to develop the powers of
the mind, though Kalkin and Yama at least may have powers resulting
from mutation, or a medically enhanced mutation, since their powers
are so remarkable.  Mara, though, is just a *very* good hypnotist
with some help also from Yama's mechanical genius.

The commoners (settlers) could develop these powers if they weren't
kept checked so well by the Masters of Karma and by the lack of
technology.

Richard Hughey
Brown University
CSNET:  rph%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net
BITNET:  rph@browncs
        (decvax, ihnp4, allegra)!brunix!rph

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Mar 87 0935-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #77
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Mar 87 0935-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #77
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:

            Books - Story Request & Pig World (2 msgs) &
                    Recommendations (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 87 19:12:46 GMT
From: ihnp3!gsky@rutgers.edu (glenn kapetansky)
Subject: Jog my memory

I remember a short story from long ago, but (as the usual plea goes
:-) have no idea who wrote it or where to find it again.  Here's the
plot (spoiler? oh, who cares):

A couple of Earthguys are in some lay-on-your-back bar on some other
planet, where the inhabitants pride themselves on their technical
achievements. Earthguys and alien guy enter into bet/contest that
pits Earthguys against aliens in engineering contest: each provides
a widget, and the other side has to deduce the function and copy it.
Aliens give E.G.'s a perpetual motion machine. E.G.'s are
successful, but only after inventing a space warp device to
circumvent a black box they can't analyze. Turns out the black box
was a BATTERY (the aliens cheated)...the story ends shortly after,
with another stinger.

Can anyone help? Please send replies via e-mail, as I can't always
get on the net. ADVthanksANCE.

glenn kapetansky
ihnp3!gsky

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 87 20:44:23 GMT
From: 52194052@NMSUVM1.BITNET
Subject: pig world

I read an exciting book several years ago, and can only recall
the name. Pig World. If anyone can give me the author's name
I would be a happy sflover once again. Any other related info
would also be helpful.

Michael

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 15:42:09 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: pig world

PIGWORLD was written by Charles W. Runyon.  (And before anyone else
gets confused, Harry Harrison wrote "THE MAN FROM P.I.G., not
PIGWORLD.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 17:18:20 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes:
>It's about time I got a little help from the net.  Ever since I
>finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin
>of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold
>my interest past the first couple of chapters.
> ...  I would really enjoy reading something with a little
>suspense, personality, characterization, drama, and action.
>
>So, I would appreciate some comments about people's favorite
>fantasy series - hopefully there will be a couple that I won't have
>read the first chapter of.

Huh.  Another example for a previous discussion...  I can't help but
FEEL that Amber is SF, even though my logic says it's fantasy!
Oops.

I know you asked for fantasy, but there's a great sf series just
completed that you should probably try.  CJCherryh's Chanur series.
The first book, THE PRIDE OF CHANUR (a great pun!), stands on its
own, and the next -four?- all go together.  Really good stuff, but
you'll have difficulties if you want more than one human involved...

CJ Cherryh also wrote a trilogy-soon-to-be-more that is sometimes
classed as sf and sometimes as fantasy.  The Morgaine trilogy,
starting with GATE OF IVREL, will soon have a fourth book added.
(For those interested, Carolyn gets a nasty gleam in her eye when we
ask about what will or will not be between Morgaine and Vanye, and
refuses to talk; this fourth book will be more from Morgaine's point
of view than Vanye's).  Each book takes place on a different world,
and is concerned with the closing of the Gates between them.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 02:58:04 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes:
>It's about time I got a little help from the net.  Ever since I
>finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin
>of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold
>my interest past the first couple of chapters.

Well...

I liked Julian May's Saga of Pliocene Exile. Horrible title for the
series, I thought, but the books were great fun.

    The Many Colored Land
    The Golden Torc
    The Unborn King
    The Adversary

 There's a one way time gate to the Pliocene (~6 million years ago)
that people enter. When they get there, they find a rather strange
world...

SLIGHT SPOILER FOLLOWS

...ruled by aliens who enslave humans and who bear close resemblances
to standard fantasy type beings -- elves, goblins, whatever. But
it's really well done, and everything tries to have some
justification -- psionics are common, but follow strict rules, etc.

Hey, I had a lot of fun with this one.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 23:27:39 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

Poul Anderson wrote several novels and numerous shorter stories in
two series: the Polesotechnic League series and the Flandry series.
At some point, he decided that the Polesotechnic League was part of
Flandry's history, and wove the two series together.

They are adventure tales, if not downright "space opera."  The
writing is good, and the scenery is excellent.  Anderson tried to
invent at least one interesting species or planet per story.  I find
they survive re-reading well.

"The Earth Book of Stormgate" is a collection of some of the
stories; it has a chronology of the whole (double) series.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 23:50:29 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes:
>It's about time I got a little help from the net.  Ever since I
>finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin
>of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold
>my interest past the first couple of chapters.

'Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser', by Fritz Leiber et al:
   "Together, Fafhrd and the Mouser make up the greatest adventurer
   in Fantasy", or some such.  All titles include the word "Swords"
   and are, by and large, collected short stories.

'The Swords of Raemllyn', by Vardeman & Proctor:
   In the mold of Conan/Fahfrd & the Gray Mouser.

'Bloodsong', by Asa Drake:
   The setting is old Scandinavia.  God's are active, but
   not as major characters.  Series in process.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com
408-746-6047

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 18:42:02 GMT
From: dand@tekigm.TEK.COM (Dan C. Duval)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

I feel strange recommending Piers Anthony, but try "Blue Adept". THe
main character has to operate in two different societies with
different physical laws while trying to find out who is trying to
off him, in both worlds. Not great, not earthshattering, but it kept
my attention through all three books (somthing which cannot be
claimed by "The Sword of Shinola"...  sorry, but it was the word
that came to mind.)

Another is the "Swords" stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser by
Fritz Leiber, with title such as "Swords Against Sorcery" and
"Swords in the Mist".

Finally, perhaps you'd like to try some Fred Saberhagen. "Empire of
the East" and its (sort of) sequels which are combined in the
hardbound edition called "The Complete Book of Swords" (I forget
what the individual books that make up the entire series are
called.)

Anyway, there are some thoughts.

Dan C Duval
ISI Engineering
Tektronix, Inc.
tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 17:50:28 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Elric and other series suggestions

Becky Slocombe recommends the Elric "series".  I would also
recommend them, but calling them a series is really a bit of false
advertising.  The six books are really collections of short stories
and novellas, held together by a fairly thin thread of chronology
and events.  Also they are of uneven quality.  If you do decide to
get the series, I would recommend the Berkley paperbacks graced with
the wonderful Robert Gould covers.

I most especially recommend the three Lord Valentine/Majipoor books
by Robert Silverberg.  One of the few really original worlds in
SF-fantasy literature.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 18:28:45 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...



jeo@hpindda.UUCP (Eric Okholm) writes:
>It's about time I got a little help from the net.  Ever since I
>finished Eddings' Belgariad series, and Zelazny's first two Merlin
>of Amber books, I can't find a good fantasy series that will hold
>my interest past the first couple of chapters.

OH!  Micheal Moorcock's Elric books (starting with ELRIC OF
MELNIBONE).  This is kind-of weird and rambling, but so is all of
Moorcock's stuff (now, let's see if I can guess who'll disagree...).

Tanith Lee's Demon books...  This series has a name, but I forget
what it is.  NIGHT'S MASTER, DEATH'S MASTER, etc.  The most recent
is DELERIUM'S MISTRESS, but my favourite is NIGHT'S MASTER.  Same
difficulty as with Moorcock...  It's WEIRD (but not rambling).
Tanith Lee is really something special once you get used to her.

Another Tanith Lee book, CYRION, is a series of short stories about
a swordfighter/adventurer, set into a story about someone seeking
the man.  This is REALLY NEATO-GWEETO!

Also, does anyone else out there like the Celtic mythology books by
Kenneth C. Flint?  I like his style.

And, back to sf, Lois McMaster-Bujold has written three books set in
the same universe (at least one character shows up in more than one
of the books).  I recommend the third, ETHAN OF ATHOS, but don't try
it if you're seriously squeamish about homosexuality (there's
nothing explicit, but some readers are bothered by the idea...).

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 01:13:03 GMT
From: cisunx!bu147441@rutgers.edu (Dan "Belgarion" Eikenberry)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

The Belgariad is/was my favorite .   of course 8-)

Other good series.  One called "The Warriors" sorry I can't remember
the author.  My roommate had them last year.

Also another good series I think it has 8 books in paperback now and
the newest in hardback (okay so it is three trilogies) are the books
by Katherine Kurtz.  Dealing with the Deryni race can't remember
names for the trils but some of the books were Camber of Culdi,
Saint Camber, Camber the Heretic, King's Justice, Bishop's Heir, the
three middle ones escape me at the moment.  But if you go to the
local book store you can be sure to find them together!

Hope you enjoy my suggestions.  Anyone remember the author of
Warriors?  It is a DND type series.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 19:56:07 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>Also, does anyone else out there like the Celtic mythology books by
>Kenneth C. Flint?  I like his style.

If you like Celtic stories, Becky, here are a couple others:

'Book of Kells', by R.A. McAvoy:
   Wherein our hero gets gated back to 10th C Ireland.  A fine story
   and up to all I've heard about MacAvoy's writing prowess shown in
   other stories (which are on my reading list, needless to say).
   Anything more is a potential spoiler, and this book brooks no
   spoilage!

'Bard', by (uhh, some lady who's name I canna remember. jayembee,
help?):
   She really did her research; this is the story of the the Celtic
   migration to Eire.  The main character is a true Celtic Bard, a
   memorable and full-figured character.

'Bard', 'Bard II', and 'Bard III', by  Keith Taylor:
   Very light-hearted fantasy-adventure fare, but the bard's
   combination of swordsmanship, thievery, and spell-casting will
   ring a bell with any who have played AD&D bards.

I don't know how I missed this in my earlier posting, other than
that it's not a series, but I heartily recommend "l'Morte d'Arthur",
by Sir Thomas Mallory.  Beware of the recent translations into
Modern English, as the flavor is weakened.  I read it in the Modern
Library edition (with winged Mercury on the spine?), which was true
to the original word-usage and spellings (spelyngs, etc.).  For much
of the first 50 pages, I kept one finger in the Glossary, but after
that the reading was more fluid - worth the struggle of the first 50
to get the next 850 in Olde English.  The public library let me keep
it for the month I spent reading it.

   "And the twane smashd togydirs lyk borys."
   == "And the two smashed together like boars."

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com
408-746-6047

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 16:39:09 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

   My favorite little-known fantasy series is E.R.Eddison's
Zimiamvia trilogy:

   Mistress of Mistresses
   A Fish Dinner in Memison
   The Mezentian Gate

These three are loosely-linked, independent novels, with a tenuous
connection to Eddison's better known _The_Worm_Ouroboros_.  They are
extremely slow-paced; the reader must be prepared for five page
descriptions of the jewels adorning the royal palace or the dishes
served at some mighty feast.  The prose style is completely unlike
anything else that has been written since the early seventeenth
century.  For delicacy of irony and magnificence of heroes, I do not
think Eddison has an equal in fantasy.  Two warnings: there are a
number of short passages in foreign languages (mostly ancient Greek,
with occasional Romance and Scandinavian tongues).  Also, the last
book (second chronologically) is unfinished; many of the chapters
appear only as outlines.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 03:42:37 GMT
From: 6100192@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Sundeep Amrute)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

Another excellent series is Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray
Mouser series.  The books, six in all, show Eddison's influence, but
are in a much lighter vein.  The books follow the adventures of two
thieves in the imaginary world of Nehwon.  The books contain lots of
the traditional swordplay and sorcery, but their main attraction is
the fact that the reader gets to follow the heroes from their youth
all the way to middle age.  Unlike most fantasy series, where the
the characters remain static, Lieber's heroes go through trials
which change them, for better or worse.  If you're looking for books
to hold your interest, I can't think of a more engaging series than
this one.  Hope I've been of some help.

BITNET: 6100192@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET.6100192

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Mar 87 0951-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #78
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Mar 87 0951-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #78
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Recommendations (9 msgs) &
                    Book Covers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 21:03:47 GMT
From: jhunix!ecf_ety@rutgers.edu (Berserker Bob)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

dand@tekigm.TEK.COM (Dan C. Duval) writes:
> I feel strange recommending Piers Anthony, but try "Blue Adept".
> THe main character has to operate in two different societies with
> different physical laws while trying to find out who is trying to
> off him, in both

   Actually, if you are interested in reading this book, I suggest
you wait and read another book first.  _Blue_Adept_ is the second
book in a trilogy.  The trilogy is called _The_Apprentice_Adept_.
The books are:

   _Split_Infinity_
   _Blue_Adept_
   _Juxtaposition_

I think the first book started out kind of slow, but it definitely
picks up.  _Juxtaposition_ is a good book.

Ted Ying
BITNET: ECF_ETY@JHUVMS.BITNET
        ecf_ety@jhunix.BITNET
UUCP:  seismo!umcp-cs!
       allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ecf_ety
       ihnp4!whuxcc!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 17:31:58 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

I hope my faux pas doesn't get everyone focused on the linguistic
facts rather than my recommendation of Morte d'Arthur as a fine
piece of fantasy-adventure writing.  (Anyone wanna say, "That's a
*terrible* book! Not only the worst that Malory ever wrote, but
worst in the genre!" to start a new battle?  :-) ) In any case, it's
fun reading.

Additional recommendations have arrived: Morgan Llewelyn was the
author of "Bard" (which I recommended without remembering her name);
her "Lion of Ireland" about Brian Boru was suggested as (even?)
better, along with:

<any title by>, Rosemary Sutcliff
   Often written for teenagers, but the stories are good.

The Crimson Chalice, Victor Canning
   Sometimes published as a trilogy, sometimes under one cover.
   Subject is, once again, the Arthurian legends.

A Flight of Gulls, Patricia Finney(?)
   Ulster myth cycle.

These suggestions thanks to Brian Thompstone <ssl-macc.co.uk!bt>, a
newcomer to the net.

Kristopher Stephens
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corporation
408-746-6047

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 13:26:47 GMT
From: bt@ssl-macc.co.uk (Brian Thompstone)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) writes:
>If you like Celtic stories, Becky, here are a couple others:
>
>'Bard', by (uhh, some lady who's name I canna remember. jayembee,
>help?):
>   She really did her research; this is the story of the
>   the Celtic migration to Eire.  The main character is a
>   true Celtic Bard, a memorable and full-figured character.

Her name is Morgan Llewelyn.

Actually, this has to be on the borderline between fantasy and
historical romance (no, I'm not going to *define* either!).  Though
not exactly historical: she may well have done her research but the
Milesian migration from ~Spain to Ireland is an 18th or 19th Century
fiction. Still, an enjoyable book - but her Lion of Ireland
(concerning Brian Boru) is much better. If you really like this sort
of stuff, then try anything by Rosemary Sutcliff (often aimed at
teenagers, but what the hell...) or The Crimson Chalice by Victor
Canning (sometimes published as a trilogy: TCC, The Circle of the
Gods, The Immortal Wound) [Arthurian Legends].  Or 'A Flight of
Gulls', Patricia Finney (?) [Ulster Myth Cycle].

BT

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 00:53:29 GMT
From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz (Software Support))
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

I'm not sure I understand "series" in this context.  There are two
kinds of series: open-ended and closed.  An open-ended series goes
on until author, publisher, or readers gets tired.  *Sherlock
Holmes* even outlasted Doyle's willingness to keep writing; the
readers made him resurrect Holmes after Richenbach falls.  In my
opinion, most open-ended speculative fiction series are dull.  After
all, one of the chief virtues of sf is the freedom; one isn't stuck
with the same world forever.  Still, there a few worth a look.

A closed series, on the other hand, is a very long story which
either won't fit in a single book or is longer than necessary.
There are great many of these at all levels of quality.

Here are some series I liked, in no particular order.  My comments
on these are *not* reviews; if you'd like to find out more about
them before buying, I suggest *The Reader's Guide to Fantasy* and
*The Reader's Guide to Science Fiction*, useful paperbacks.  These
ought to keep you busy for a while.

   JRR Tolkien, *Lord of the Rings*
      by writing a book so long it had to be published as three
      volumes, Tolkien invented the modern epic fantasy.  If you
      really love this, you should try the *Silmarillion* and the
      *Book of Lost Tales*.

   PC Hodgell, *God-stalk*, *Dark of the Moon*
      funny, scary fantasies.  Nothing to do with Celts.  The series
      is as yet incomplete

   Gordon Dickson, *Childe*
      set in a space-travelling future.  I think six books, so far.
      Not yet complete.

   Patricia McKillip, *Riddle of Stars*
      Three books: *The Riddle-Master of Hed*, *The Heir of Sea &
      Fire*, *Harpist in the Wind*.  Fantasy.

   CJ (Carolyn) Cherryh, many books.
      CJ Cherryh has written many books in an open-ended future
      history as well as two linked Celtic fantasies (*The
      Dreamstone* and *Tree of Swords and Jewels*).  In her future
      history, try *Downbelow Station*, *40,000 in Gehenna*, the
      "Chanur" books (a closely-linked series of four), and *The
      Faded Sun*, a close-linked series of three.

   Robert A. Heinlein, *The Past through Tomorrow*
      An old (1940-1950) future history.

   Jack Vance, *The Dying Earth* and *Lyonesse*
      Elegant fantasies

    Susan Allison Dexter, *The Ring of Allaire*
      fantasies

Randolph Fritz
sun!rfritz
rfritz@sun.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 14:13:53 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

> So, I would appreciate some comments about people's favorite
> fantasy series - hopefully there will be a couple that I won't
> have read the first chapter of.

   My favorite in recent years is Barbara Hambly's trilogy:

      The Time of the Dark
      The Walls of Air
      The Armies of Daylight

at least I think those are the titles. The first book has a cover
with a well armed wizard sitting in a modern kitchen drinking a
beer. This series is very good and held me in greater suspense than
the Belgariad or Lord of the Rings. It is by no means perfect, but
the rough spots are few and the many plotlines should keep you
interested.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 18:47:58 GMT
From: amdahl!chuck (Charles Simmons)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

randolph@sun.UUCP (Randolph Fritz (Software Support)) writes:
>    JRR Tolkien, *Lord of the Rings*
>    PC Hodgell, *God-stalk*, *Dark of the Moon*
>    Gordon Dickson, *Childe*
>    Patricia McKillip, *Riddle of Stars*
>    CJ (Carolyn) Cherryh, many books.
>    Robert A. Heinlein, *The Past through Tomorrow*
>    Jack Vance, *The Dying Earth* and *Lyonesse*
>    Susan Allison Dexter, *The Ring of Allaire*

Randolph somehow managed to overlook one of the best series of all
time, the Amber series by Roger Zelazny.  For a long time there were
five books in this series which form a single, complete story.
Zelazny is now in the process of writing a sequel to this series.

Cheers, Chuck

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 21:29:51 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

Try C.J. Cherryh.  The Ivriel series is pretty good.  It is a
trilogy that is weak in the middle and suffers from her tendency to
run her characters ragged (no sleep for days, etc.).  However, she
does a finely drawn clan and honor based society in the first (Gate
of Ivriel) and shows how a member of that fares in much different
circumstances.

She is very good at portraying alien culture and thought patterns.
She also often talks about how people adapt when taken out of home
context.  The Chanur series shows some of this.  Not fantasy, but
intelligent space opera.  I agree with somebody else a few days ago,
she spends a lot of time in the first couple of books setting up the
cultures and your expectations, then in the last two uses that base
to really cut loose.

My favorite is her Faded Sun trilogy.  The setting is a war between
humanity and aliens (the Regul).  The regul rarely fight (they
rarely do ANYTHING for themselves once they mature) so use a
mercenary race called the Mri.  These folk are very like humans but
have survived on a culture that is almost insect-like in its
resistance to change.  They are another of her samauri-like warrior
peoples, however, with a complete culture.  Anywho, by the end of
the first book I was furious at the mri for being so stupid and
suicidally inflexible (human viewpoint).  By the end of the third, I
felt she had gotten the reader deep inside two very alien viewpoints
to the point of understanding and appreciating why.  Not fantasy but
highly recommended.

Tanith Lee has a good series going, I have heard it referred to as
the flat earth series.  First book is Night's Master.  Short,
loosely connected stories but good background.  Next is the best:
Death's Master.  I think Delusion's Master was next but after that
it is starting to go downhill.  This is not an action packed swords
& mages type of thing.  She has a very distinct writing style based
on rich description of emotion and character, a fantastic world, and
rather interesting magic characters (what do you think of a
character who is male is some points, female at others as a general
expression of current mental context?)

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 18:45:48 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

dand@tekigm.TEK.COM (Dan C. Duval) writes:
>I feel strange recommending Piers Anthony, but try "Blue Adept".

Hell, I feel stranger recommending Piers (it'll ruin my image) but
look at the Incarnations of Immortality series.  It is very uneven
between books, but when it is good it is great, and when it is bad
it is horrible.  Fortunately, there has only been one truly horrible
book (the second), so it's probably worth watching.

I'll also highly recommend two books by clare bell: "Ratha's
Creature" and "Clan Ground" -- only available as Atheneum hardbacks
right now, but the paperback rights have been sold to Dell.

Also, track down the St. Germain series by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro.
These are basically out of print except through the Science Fiction
Book club, but they've been sold to Tor who will be bringing them
out (along with six NEW novels based around Olivia) starting in (I
think) August.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 01:55:41 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes:
>Try C.J. Cherryh.  The Ivriel series is pretty good.  It is a
>trilogy that is weak in the middle and suffers from her tendency to
>run her characters ragged (no sleep for days, etc.).  However, she
>does a finely drawn clan and honor based society in the first (Gate
>of Ivriel) and shows how a member of that fares in much different
>circumstances.

I'll second this, and also for the person who liked the Chanur
series, I'll claim that the Faded Sun series I *much* better than
Chanur.  I found Chanur to be too loose with too many flavors of
humanoid aliens running around.  Of course it might be a better
reflection of reality.

I found the Gates/Ivrel series ok, but pretty murkey.  I want to
reread it again one of these days to see if I missed something.

If you like space opera, I'd also check out the Dream Dancer and
Silestra series by Janet Morris - also a bit murkey (BTW, ignore the
Silestra cover blurbs).  Also Floating World by Ceceilia Holland (a
one book series).

Fantasy - try The Serpent...Some Summer Lands by Jane Gaskell.  This
is a raw form of some current fantasy series - powerful and
evocative, but of mixed quality.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 18:09:32 GMT
From: sq!becky
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

randolph@sun.UUCP (Randolph Fritz (Software Support)) writes:
>CJ (Carolyn) Cherryh, many books.
>   CJ Cherryh has written many books in an open-ended future
>   history as well as two linked Celtic fantasies (*The Dreamstone*
>   and *Tree of Swords and Jewels*).  In her future history, try
>   *Downbelow Station*, *40,000 in Gehenna*, the "Chanur" books (a
>   closely-linked series of four), and *The Faded Sun*, a
>   close-linked series of three.

Maybe all this stuff will get me to do some serious rereading before
AD ASTRA...

Mr. Fritz pointed out that he was not reviewing, so don't go
thinking I'm disagreeing with him here.  But I wanted to recommend
Carolyn's MERCHANTER'S LUCK, which is a lighter space-opera-type
book set in roughly the same time-slot as DOWNBELOW STATION.  My
trouble with both DOWNBELOW and 40,000 IN GEHENNA is the rather
superficial characterization involved; there are too many people
important to these stories to make them fun for me, even while these
two books are probably more realistic than her other stories.

Another excellent CJC book is HUNTER OF WORLDS, which hasn't gotten
a lot of press recently.  I also really enjoyed WAVE WITHOUT A
SHORE, but most people find it involves too many discussions of
philosophy and too little actual story.  (I disagree...  But then, I
usually do...)

In Cherryh's Khemeis, a CJCherryh fan club, most members list the
Morgaine trilogy, THE FADED SUN, and the Chanur series as among the
best of her works.

THE FADED SUN is all one story, about three characters, Sten Duncan
(human), Melein ("mri", equivalent to a "High Priestess"), and Niun
(mri, of the race's warrior caste).  The humans are at war with a
race called the "regul", and the mri act as hired mercenaries for
the regul.  When the regul sign a treaty (something the mri don't
understand) with the humans, they decide that they must then kill
off the mri...  and Duncan gets caught in the middle.  Sort-of:^(.
Anyway, the three books can be read individually, but they are best
together.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 22:17:58 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: book covers

True some covers don't have anything much to do with the book, but
just be thankful we live in the 80's and get real covers.  Quite a
lot of covers from the 60's (Ace's Specials come to mind) were
really wretched, more designs than illustrations.

Also, why is it that hardback jackets have historically had such bad
art when compared to paperbacks?  (Though this seems to be changing
in SF now).

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Mar 87 0956-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #79
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Mar 87 0956-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #79
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:

                       Films - Dune (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 15:48:59 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #20

russell@eneevax.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes:
>I rather enjoyed reading DUNE.  I found it a good combination of
>adventure, politics, and other cultures.  The movie, on the other
>hand, left MUCH to be desired.  Although the first half of the
>movie followed the book "rather" well (the changes made were
>sometimes drastic, but understandable), as soon as Paul goes into
>the desert, it's as if the screenwriters chucked the book in the
>trash.

If you read the book on the making of Dune you will discover that
the book was not chucked in the trash. The original screenplay as
actually filmed was an almost page by page copy of the book (except
things like Baron Harkonnen who was drastically hammed-up to make
him more villainous).
   The problems occurred when the film had been cut down as far as
it would go without bastardising the plot and it was found to be
around four and a half hours long! So they set about cutting it down
to a more reasonable length whilst at the same time trying not to
interfere with the films *internal* logic. To do this they had to
take out several of the action scenes such as Paul's fight with
Harahs's husband (whose name escapes me at the moment) because if
they had left that in they would have to keep the whole of the Harah
storyline in. The other noticeable cut was Feyd-Rauthas fight with
the undrugged slave which again was tied in with a fairly lengthy
sub-plot.
    The major problem with the cutting of the film was that the
importance of the crys-knives was lost, but if you hadn't already
read the book it was not a vital loss, and, if you had read it you
knew that anyway and could fill in from memory (I know it isn't
exactly satisfactory but it works :-)
    You may think that these were just excuses that the film company
put out but also included in the book were stills from the film,
including a lot of bits that didn't actually make the released
version. I don't actually like the fact that the film was cut up but
I don't see how a better job could have been done whilst still
keeping the *film* logical.

>When it rained in the end, I almost cried.

So did I and there is no way that I can defend this.

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 05:03:06 GMT
From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald)
Subject: DUNE

  Regarding DUNE. I loved the first book, and thought it went down
drastically from there. But what I am really interested in is the
movie.
 Do movie companies ever release uncut versions of films? I would
*love* to see an uncut DUNE (on a very long tape, I presume). Could
they be pressured to do so? (Is there a precedent?)
  The rainfall at the end was absolutely unforgivable.
  The interpretation of the weirding way was also unforgivable.
  Were these (or any of the other corruptions that I can't think of
now) different to begin with?

Rob Wald
Princeton University Information Centers
6090617@PUCC.BITNET
allegra!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!6090617

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 15:29:40 GMT
From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: DUNE

6090617@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>  The rainfall at the end was absolutely unforgivable.

absolutely.

>  The interpretation of the weirding way was also unforgivable.

Now, when you say "the interpretation of the weirding way", are you
referring to the weirding weapons that the film contrived, or the
way people had their voices sound like Regan in the Exorcist
whenever they used the weirding way?

Personally, I found both of them tolerable.  I can understand the
introduction of the weapons into the story, because it would take to
long to explain to the audience that the Emperor was going after
Atreides because he was afraid of Atreides growing popularity in the
Landsraat.  Instead, they just gave Atreides a powerful weapon, and
said that the Emperor was going after him because he was afraid of
his becoming too powerful.  As to the funny voices caused by using
mind control, I thought it was a reasonable special effect to show
us that something special was going on.

Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm not promoting DUNE.  In fact, if
you've read the book DON'T SEE THE MOVIE!  However, the more I think
about it, the more I realize that they did a reasonable job with the
movie up until Paul and his mother go into the desert.  They didn't
do a GOOD job, just a reasonable one.

Or maybe the movie was so bad, I'm just desperately looking for good
things to say about it...

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 87 20:20:08 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Re: DUNE

> 6090617@PUCC.BITNET writes:
>  Regarding DUNE. I loved the first book, and thought it went down
>drastically from there. But what I am really interested in is the
>movie.
> Do movie companies ever release uncut versions of films? I would
>*love* to see an uncut DUNE (on a very long tape, I presume). Could
>they be pressured to do so? (Is there a precedent?)
>  The rainfall at the end was absolutely unforgivable.
>  The interpretation of the weirding way was also unforgivable.
>  Were these (or any of the other corruptions that I can't think of
>now) different to begin with?

From what I have read on the making of the movie (part of this from
Herbert himself), there was just so much that could be done in the
three hours or so that most American movie-goers will sit through.
There are quite a few scenes that were cut out for one reason or
another.  What he would have liked to have done is show it on TV as
a mini-series so that all of the footage could be shown, and the
plot would be that much more continuous.  As far as I know, Herbert
generally approved of the film, although I tend to think that, even
though he never admitted it, he sold himself over to the
sensationalism of the Hollywood crowd.

My biggest complaint (though I also didn't like the "weirding
module" bit) was with the serious omission of Paul's relationship
with Duncan Idaho.  It was as if he said "Hi!  I'm Duncan Idaho, and
you'll never see me again in this movie, except when it's time for
me to go!"  Duncan is by far the most important character in the
whole series (after Paul and Leto II), and his brushing aside was
sacrilege.

If you haven't read the fourth through sixth books, do so!  I though
the last two were particulary good (almost on a par with the big D
itself).

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 16:31:56 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: DUNE

russell@eneevax.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes:
>Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm not promoting DUNE.  In fact, if
>you've read the book DON'T SEE THE MOVIE!
>
>Or maybe the movie was so bad, I'm just desperately looking for
>good things to say about it...

   One thing I would say in the movie's favor is that it is better
than the book. The movie had seeds of greatness, which fell
completely flat in the second half. I think if Lynch had been left
to himself and the movie was allowed to run 4+ hours it might have
been an incredible thing indeed, and much superior to "Dune" the
book.

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 19:22:36 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: DUNE

DUNE, the book, portrays a society which has the air of being
low-tech (though that's misleading) but possesses (at least at its
higher levels) great sophistication.

Star Wars gives us superficially high technology along with all the
sophistication of the Wizard of Oz.

What a pity that DUNE, the movie, was forced into the Star Wars
mould of killer robots, flashy holograms and unmotivated black hats.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 23:54:23 GMT
From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu (Hobie Orris)
Subject: DUNE

   At WorldCon in Atlanta last year, a presentation was made by a
journalist (I forget his name) who was present at the filming of
DUNE and who showed many slides of the cut scenes.  There was a
short promo type film that showed Frank Herbert positively gushing
about the film. He did look genuinely excited about it.  From the
slides and the narrative provided by this eyewitness, it appeared
that almost nothing was left out of the movie.  There were shots of
Paul's fight with Jamis, Paul living with Harah (sp?), a scene in a
rose garden in Caladan, and other stuff which I forget. (Perhaps
someone else was there and can fill in some blanks?).

   Anyway, he said David Lynch would love to release the entire
movie, perhaps on video, but would require another 2 million dollars
to whip it into shape.  Funny anecdote: Do you remember the dead cow
shown on Geidi Prime in the film?  When filming in Mexico, someone
in the crew mistakenly left the cow out of the freezer overnight.
As the weather was hot, the next morning it was decomposing and
Lynch was taking fits (apparently he really liked that cow, and I
can believe that, having seen Lynch's penchant for the grotesque)
until someone suggested they just 'pop the cow back in the freezer'.
Lynch became excited, jumping up and down and yelling "POP THE COW!!
POP THE COW!!", which became a favourite joke on the set.  They
presented Lynch with a T-shirt sporting that phrase.

Hobie Orris
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4|decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 12:06:10 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: DUNE

6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald) writes:
>  Do movie companies ever release uncut versions of films? I would
> *love* to see an uncut DUNE (on a very long tape, I presume).

Filmmakers shoot a lot of film covering the scenes of the script
several times and then a film editor makes sense of the mess and
pieces together a film from it.  This can be tantamount to rewriting
the script.  The editor can be as important to the final product as
is the director and scriptwriter combined.  You may not like what
the editor did with the footage of DUNE, but what you call the uncut
version is a hodgepodge of many thousands of short pieces of films.
What you want is a re-editing that would use more of the unused
pieces.  That is a lot of work for someone, but it there is demand
the DEG organization might do it.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 21:39:44 GMT
From: jgray@pilchuck.Data-IO.COM (Jerry Late Nite Gray)
Subject: Re: DUNE

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
> What a pity that DUNE, the movie, was forced into the Star Wars
> mould of killer robots, flashy holograms and unmotivated black
> hats.

I feel abusive today.

Perhaps this is "old hat" but the above article reminded me of
something I had noticed some time ago after seeing the movie and
rereading the book (I forget which one I did first).

A lot has been said about what went wrong with the movie version but
I haven't heard this one.  To produce a successful movie requires
that it contain elements of ENTERTAINMENT as distinct from elements
of artful expression, philosophical/religious/social statment, or
role fulfillment.  I've have purposely made this statement vague
since there are a wide variety of entertainment elements.  The one
I'll talk about here is what I call LE (life enjoyment) elements
though you could probably get the same affect in this argument if
you use the word "humor" rather than LE.

Faithful representations of books can sometimes be sure death in the
movie industry since the entertainment values of the two media are
frequently different for a given theme.  One thing that was
definitely reproduced faithfully in the DUNE movie was the gross
lack of LE elements.

An LE element is quality in story writing which basically shows that
the characters involved simply enjoy living and other than having to
cope with the basic conflict in the plot they would be happy,
entertain, productive and occasionally humorous characters.  In most
of Herbert's books, his characters come off so dead serious all the
time that it is hard to believe that these characters could ever
exist.

An excellent example of how a series of movies can be improved by
better LE usage is the most recent Star Trek film. Most of the
critics have remarked that this film was "funny", less "heavy
handed" and so on. I add to that the characters were more typical in
human nature in their enjoyment of the roles that they played in
accomplishing their goals. For example, in addition to the obviously
funny lines associate with Bone's and Scotty's encounters with older
technologies (which was a bit overdone at times) there was a display
of enjoyment in being able to introduce new technology to the lesser
endowed. There was also the enjoyment of "bitching" about the
inadequacies of older technologies. Both of these things you or I
might do (or at least observe in our companions) if we were somehow
in the same situation. I can't picture any of Herbert's characters
showing those type of tendencies.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 08:15:26 PST (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Re: Dune and Big Books

Tim Maroney <hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu> writes:
>Dune's future medievalism is hardly new in science fiction; it is a
>rather trite staple of the genre.  The idea of power addicts and
>monarchical power plays has been the backbone of more space operas
>than you can shake an inertial drive at.  The religious structures
>seemed artificial and dry to me.  What was it about them you found
>revealing and new?  It is not, after all, enough simply to discuss
>something; one must have something in particular to say about it.
>You claim Herbert's themes are strong; very well then, what are
>they?  Surely "power corrupts" and "it is easy to become obsessed
>with things" are not all there is to his ideas.
>
>You seem consistently to lean on Dune's supposedly provocative ideas
>to support its worth.  But Dune is a novel, not a series of short
>essays.  With flat characters, unengaging plot, dull settings,
>plodding style, and no consistent theme, it is impossible for a book
>to succeed as a novel.

It wasn't the idea of power addicts and power corrupting that was so
interesting, but the implication that EVERYONE is an addict and that
the world goes 'round because of it. THAT intrigued me. Virtually
all major forces in the novel, even the good guys, are strongly
addicted to something. Most of the actions in the novel seem to be
outgrowths of someone trying to satisfy an addiction of some sort.
How frightening, if true. The typical motives we ascribe to people
get lost in the shuffle, in a society based solely around mediating
conflicting addictions.

The religious ideas in Dune didn't seem dry to me. I'd never seen
anyone suggesting that religion could be treated as an engineering
science before I read Dune. (Note: not social science, although that
seemed related, but religious science. Not just description, as in
comparative religion, but actual research into its uses as a tool.
Amazingly cynical conception!) The Bene Gesserit fascinated me, as
people far more profoundly shackled by religion than the persons
they attempted to manipulate through it.

I have to disagree with your overall evaluation. I found the
characters much more interesting than you did, perhaps because I was
watching from a different perspective (perhaps because I'm simply a
shallow person myself, although I hope not!). I found most of the
settings to be pretty dull, I admit, but I wasn't interested in
background so much as characters. Still, Arrakis itself qualifies as
pretty interesting to me.  As for consistent theme, I think I've
spelled out at least one.

Kurt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Mar 87 1009-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Mar 87 1009-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bester (3 msgs) & Brust &
                         Cherryh (3 msgs) & Dalmas (2 msgs) &
                         Hawke (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Mar 87 17:09:03 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Stars My Destination

loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) writes:
>BUT I loaned out my last copy, it never came back, and the book is
>out of print AGAIN.

Have you tried looking under the title "Tiger! Tiger!"  That is the
title my copy goes under (I bought it new a few weeks ago), but
please remember I'm over in Britain.

Actually, I don't think that TSMD is a terribly good title!  After
all, when you read the beginning, where it tells you about Jaunting,
and the failure to jaunte (note the 'e' at the end, please) over
interstellar distances, it rather prepares you for the ending (and
the whole point) of the book.  I would like to find out what
Bester's title was.

And now, I think I'll stop reading about Teleportation, as I've just
seen The Fly.  Uuuurrrrrgggghhhh......

Derrick
ENU1475%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 10:28:49 GMT
From: intrin!pl@rutgers.edu (Petri Launiainen)
Subject: Re: Stars My Destination

EMAILDEV%UKACRL.BITNET@BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>I would like to find out what Bester's title was.

When you seek for the original titles, the first page information on
a translated version might be helpful: the original title given in
the Finnish edition of the Besters' book is "The Stars My
Destination (Tiger, Tiger)".

Petri Launiainen
Intrinsic Oy
Aleksis Kiven katu 11 C
33100 Tampere,  FINLAND
Phone: (int) 358 31 132800
UUCP: pl@intrin.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 22:21:15 GMT
From: borealis!barry (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Stars My Destination

From: Derrick <ENU1475%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>:
>Actually, I don't think that TSMD is a terribly good title!  After
>all, when you read the beginning, where it tells you about
>Jaunting, and the failure to jaunte (note the 'e' at the end,
>please) over interstellar distances, it rather prepares you for the
>ending (and the whole point) of the book.  I would like to find out
>what Bester's title was.

   I'm not certain of this, but I think I recall seeing a
prepublication announcement of TSMD in GALAXY that called it THE
BURNING SPEAR. You may recall that the book refers to Foyle as a
"burning spear" late in the novel, when he's on fire, and jaunting
all over the world.  Anybody else have more information?

Kayembee

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 07:46:05 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla

About a month ago, this net was filled with postings talking about
SKZ Brust's "Teckla", the third in a series. (Nowadays the net is
filled with Deryni postings, golly :-) ) Anyway, the general feeling
about the series was that it was really good, and I was intrigued
enough to go out and buy them.

I bought "Jhereg" and "Yendi", but couldn't find "Teckla", and
settled down for some reading. What I found was very different from
what the net led me to expect: from the way people talked about the
books, I expected them to be much more complex and elaborate and,
oh, emotionally powerful than they were. Basically, I felt as though
I were reading "Mythadventures" again; there's this innocent young
hero (and in "Jhereg" the fact that he's a married assassin doesn't
change the fact that he comes across as a wide-eyed naif), a big
gruff sidekick, and, God help us, a dragon of indeterminate but
indisputable intelligence.

"Jhereg" was inoffensive but not at all what I had been hoping for.
"Yendi" was better, but still seemed to be lacking real interest; I
was still reminded of Mythadventures at every turn. While I liked
the first few Myth books, I quickly decided that reading them is
like eating cotton candy; it's fun but not sustaining, and you don't
particularly mind if you can't get it. (Apologies to cotton candy
fanatics.) I still read the Myth books when I see one lying around,
but I wouldn't pay for one; they just don't hold my interest.

So I nearly gave up on the series. But a lot of the discussion of
"Teckla", which I had skimmed at the time and vaguely remembered,
was about how much darker, more depressing, less enjoyable the third
book was. It seemed that the general feeling was that the third book
wasn't as good as the other two. Remembering this, and reasoning
that "Teckla" might be very different from its predecessors, I
bought it when I found it, a few days ago.

I liked it *much* more than the others. In fact, I liked it so much
that I just bought SKZB's "To Reign in Hell". With "Teckla" I
started feeling that these were real people in a real situation,
although the flippant first-person narration still grates a little.
"Teckla" has convinced me to stay with the series, which I would
have stopped following after the second if I hadn't known "Teckla"
promised to be different.

The point of this? I'm interested by the fact that it was the book
which SKZB fans seemed to like least that hooked me. Are there any
other people out there who share my feelings?

I also wonder if SKZB has worked out the stories behind the
fragments he keeps dropping here and there (e.g. "Deathsgate
Falls... but that's another story"). I'm afraid that too much
timeline hopping will fragment the series, by telling isolated
stories with predetermined endings rather than letting us watch Vlad
progress smoothly forward through time. Jumping around the timeline
didn't hurt the Darkover series, but Darkover has a much more
fleshed-out background than this series does. (I'm still confused by
the relationship between "Draghearans" (sp? haven't got the books
here in my office) and "Easterners" (== humans?), but I gather that
I'm supposed to be. OK, I'll wait...)

Comments invited... (Mr. Brust, are you there? I'm gonna keep
reading them, honest)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 20:51:53 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: New "Morgaine" book (was Re: Help!...  Find me ...)

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>I know you asked for fantasy, but there's a great sf series just
>completed that you should probably try.  CJCherryh's Chanur series.
>The first book, THE PRIDE OF CHANUR (a great pun!), stands on its
>own, and the next -four?- all go together.  Really good

Three

Chanur's Venture, The Kif Strike Back, and Chanur's Homecoming These
are not separate books, but rather one large book published as three
volumes.  There is no attempt at a resolution at the end of either
of the first two.

The middle title was accidentally invented by a befuddled publishing
executive, and an amused (bemused?) Cherry thought it was a great
idea.  In my opinion, Cherryh's best.

>stuff, but you'll have difficulties if you want more than one human
>involved...
>
>CJcherryh also wrote a trilogy-soon-to-be-more that is sometimes
>classed as sf and sometimes as fantasy.  The Morgaine trilogy,
>starting with GATE OF IVREL, will soon have a fourth book added.
>(For those interested, Carolyn gets a nasty gleam in her eye when
>we ask about what will or will not be between Morgaine and Vanye,
>and refuses to talk; this fourth book will be more from Morgaine's
>point of view than Vanye's).  Each book takes place on a different
>world, and is concerned with the closing of the Gates between them.
>-Becky Slocombe.

Is there a tentative publication date for this?  Until Chanur's
Homecoming, the Morgaine trilogy was my favorite Cherryh.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf%lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 23:25:15 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Cherryh (was Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

I must disagree with the various glowing recommendations of the
works of CJ Cherryh that have been posted lately.  While I thought
Hunter of Worlds was excellent, and rather liked Brothers of Earth,
I haven't found much interest in the rest of her work.
Specifically, I've read the first book of the Faded Sun trilogy and
didn't like it at all, and I read half of Downbelow Station before
finally given up in disgust (making it one of about a dozen books in
my entire life that I have stopped reading part way through).
  This is not intended for a moment to detract from Ad Astra (which
was discussed in a recent message also dealing with Ms. Cherryh,
since she will be goh there).  Ms. Cherryh is a very nice person and
a good GOH (she was our guest at Minicon some years ago), and
clearly an important writer in the field whether I like her works or
not.  I'm planning to be at Ad Astra -- see you there.  (And at
Fourth St. Fantasy Convention in Minneapolis two weeks later.)

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 17:18:15 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Cherryh (was Re: Help!...  Find me a good series
Subject: please...

ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes:
> I must disagree with the various glowing recommendations of the
> works of CJ Cherryh that have been posted lately.

Well, tastes differ.  I found Downbelow Station one of the ten best
SF books I've ever read, (and given that it got the Hugo in, I
believe, '82, quite a few other people must have thought well of
it).

Cherryh's three books in the 'merchanter' series, Downbelow Station,
Merchanter's Luck, and Voyager in Night, manage better than anything
I've seen in years to invoke the quality that first attracted me to
science fiction.  For lack of a better term, I've always called it
'the romance of engineering'.  By this I mean that special excitement
of being there and watching the men and women of the future interact
with their environment, and feel the human impact of their
environment.  I haven't seen anything as good as Cherryh since some of
the early Heinlein (The Green Hills of Earth, The Man who Sold the
Moon, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, etc.)

In addition, Downbelow Station contains some absolutely first rate
character description and character development.  I can't be the
only one who fell in love with that beautifuly complex triangle of
interactions among Damon Konstantin, Signey Mallory, and Josh
Talley, or marveled at the incredible way Damon Konstantin becomes a
moral catalyst for several of the major characters without ever
losing his individual and imperfect humanity.  God, this is
LITERATURE.

Anyway, you can see I'm quite a Cherryh fan, and I seem to have
missed the 'ad astra' posting you discussed.  Could you re-post when
and where?  Thank you.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 1987 11:20:01-EST
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Re: Post Plague Holocaust Novels

While we are on the subject of post-plague holocaust novels, John
Dalmas wrote _The_Yngling_, which was serialized in Analog in 1970
and published in paperback about a year later along with a short
story sequel _But_Mainly_By_Cunning_.  It takes place in Europe a
couple of hundred years after a plague wiped out 99+% of humanity.
The culture has regressed (re-advanced?) to a feudal level.  There
is a liberal dose of SF stuff like psionics mixed in.

The main reason I am bringing this up is that the book ends with an
obvious hook for a sequel.  Does anyone out there know if such a
sequel has ever been published?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 06:21:19 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Post Plague Holocaust Novels

From: wyzansky@NADC
>John Dalmas wrote _The_Yngling_, ...
>The main reason I am bringing this up is that the book ends with an
>obvious hook for a sequel.  Does anyone out there know if such a
>sequel has ever been published?

Yes.  Tor Books published "Homecoming" in September 1984.  I found a
copy on the shelves of a bookstore only a few months ago.

It deals with an expedition from a colony cut off by the cessation
of interstellar travel. They have finally managed to build a
starship and when they land on Earth they run into the Master of the
"orcs" that Nils and company were fighting in the first book...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 12:42:42 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl
Subject: THE IVANHOE GAMBIT by Simon Hawke

                 THE IVANHOE GAMBIT by Simon Hawke
                             Ace, 1984
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
                  Copyright 1987 Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is the first of a series of time travel adventures
entitled, collectively, "Time Wars."  The U. S. Army Temporal Corps
is busy trying to prevent people from going back and disturbing
history.  Not a very original idea, but Hawke does put some spin on
the ball--the history that people go back to centers around
fictional characters and events.  If a ROMAN A CLEF is a novel in
which real characters appear, thinly disguised, then what is the
term for a novel in which someone else's literary creations are
appear as real characters?  My friendly literary reference person
says she knows of no such term, but certainly there have been many
such novels; I suspect the most prolific are those involving
Sherlock Holmes.

     But back to THE IVANHOE GAMBIT.  In this novel, as you may have
guessed, Sergeant Major Lucas Priest travels back to the time of
Robin Hood, Maid Marion, Ivanhoe, Isaac of York, Rebecca, and the
whole schmeer.  The army and the military characters seem to be
patterned after Heinlein, and offer not much in the way of
surprises.  The other characters, in case you couldn't guess, are
patterned after Scott, though there is some variation from Scott's
characterization.  The story is straight-forward adventure with a
few twists, and while it won't set the world on fire, it's a
pleasant enough way to spend an evening.  I expect to read the
sequels (THE TIMEKEEPER CONSPIRACY, THE PIMPERNEL PLOT, THE ZENDA
VENDETTA, THE NAUTILUS SANCTION, and THE KHYBER CONNECTION) in the
not-too-distant future.  At least I know they've been released; I'm
still waiting for Leo Frankowski's continuation of THE CROSS-TIME
ENGINEER.  (I just know someone will tell me they've already been
released and are now out of print!)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 17:45:06 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage)
Subject: Re: THE IVANHOE GAMBIT by Simon Hawke

I've been reading the Hawke books as they came out (though I haven't
bothered to get the Khyber Connection).  They are indeed pleasant --
and they did something rather good for me; i.e., in order to
appreciate them, I read the classics they were based on.  So I have
now read The Three Musketeers, The Scarlet Pimpernel, and the
Prisoner of Zenda (I'd already read 20,000 Leagues).

How did I manage not to read these wonderful books until halfway
through college?  I dunno.  But Hawke got me to read them, and
thereby vastly increased my fondness for his series.  However, I
must warn you that the books do go downhill -- the tech level
inflates dramatically (sorta like Jim Starlin characters; everybody
gets too powerful too fast), the scope of the story goes down (all
of a sudden the main characters are the prime cause of everything

SPOILER (MAYBE)

because the terrorists are acting solely to trap Our Heroes; their
motivations drop to personal conflict instead of global politics)

END SPOILER

and the original classics remain a far better read.  So I may or may
not get the Khyber Connection, but I am more pleased than not that
this series exists.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Mar 87 1026-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #81
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Mar 87 1026-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #81
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Stardrives (5 msgs) &
                               SFWA & Tucker Awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 16:56:30 GMT
From: ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths )

Righty-ho!

Having fed my bit of fuel onto the raging discusssion of teleport
booths that has all but taken over the net in the past month or so,
let's start another...

This one has to do with methods of "Flipping a spaceship between the
furthest stars," and their side-effects. The systems I know of at
present are

1) The Generation Ship
A very large enclosed ecology which takes many generations to sail
between even the closest stars. Problems include size - this thing
has got to be large to be self-sustaining - and whether the
descendants of the original settlers of the ship will continue to
run the ship correctly. Stories: NONSTOP, Brian Aldiss

2) The Frozen Sleep Method
A normal ship, accelerated to solar escape velocity, again taking
many years to make the trip under computer control. The crew are
kept in suspended animation, and awakened on arrival at the target
star. Problems include computer malfunction, side-effects of the
sleep, and also troubleshooting along the way.  Stories: 2001,
Arthur Clarke; A WORLD OUT OF TIME, Larry Niven; THE DREAM
MILLENIUM,(unknown).  Also, a slight variation is used in Bob
Forward's THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY.  The aging process ( and the
intelligence ) of the starship crew is retarded.

3) The Bussard Ramjet.
Allows the ship to accelerate to the midpoint of its course, then
start decelerating, since the fuel supply is the interstellar
hydrogen gas. It is scooped in by large magnetic fields, compressed
to fusion, and allowed to propel the vehicle like a normal fusion
rocket engine. Problems include the effect of the massive magnetic
fields needed on the crew ( if any ). Stories: Almost anything by
Larry Niven, particularly A WORLD OUT OF TIME, RINGWORLD ENGINEERS,
PROTECTOR also TAU ZERO, Poul Anderson (?).

4) Hyperspace
A lot of variation in this field... as you may expect. Mainly
involves either injecting the spaceship into a non-space sort of
place where the speed of light is a lot faster, or the distance
between points in normal space is greatly reduced. Almost any kind
of faster-than-light travel uses this medium. Problems include
getting in and out of hyperspace, orientation, timing, speed
regulation, what you see out the viewports of the ship, etc etc etc
etc. Stories: almost any SF set in interstellar civilizations.

5) Improbability Drive
'Nuff said !

6) "Conventional Teleportation"
Basically, put a teleport transmitter on one planet, and a receiver
on the target planet ( or near it ). Voila! Space travel. Obviously,
speed depends on the method you are using. Problems include
alignment of transmitter beam, rela- tive velocities, etc. Stories:
ALL THE BRIDGES RUSTING ( in CONVERGENT SERIES ) by Niven ( again )

7) Warp drives
Basically an extension of the rocket motor which will accelerate you
to above the speed of light. Problems include speed-of-light
barrier, relativity ( what do we do with the extra mass ? ).
Stories: STAR TREK.

Hope this inspires debate. How do YOU get to the stars ? Can you
prove these will ( or won't ) work ? Can you design one ( if so,
patent it very very very quickly ) ? Can you see problems, solutions
to problems mentioned, etc ?

CU Soon

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 22:52:59 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths )

ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) writes:
> 1) The Generation Ship
> 2) The Frozen Sleep Method
> Stories: 2001, Arthur Clarke; A WORLD OUT OF TIME, Larry Niven;
> THE DREAM MILLENIUM,(unknown).

The Dream Millenium was by James White of _Hospital Station_ fame.
Minor nit: _A World Out of Time_ used a combination of cold-sleep
*and* Bussard ramjet (for those really long trips :-)) .  Stories
like this are what make making up catagories like these fun.

Also, some of the Niven Known Space series used cold sleep (before
man could build manned ramjets).

An interesting variant of this appeared in Sheffield's _Between the
Strokes of Night_ -- the interstellar ships were crewed by people
who had been shifted into a 2000x slower metabolic rate but were
still conscious throughout the trip.

> 3) The Bussard Ramjet.
> also TAU ZERO, Poul Anderson (?).

Yep, it was Anderson.

> 4) Hyperspace
> 5) Improbability Drive
> 'Nuff said !
> 6) "Conventional Teleportation"
> Basically, put a teleport transmitter on one planet, and a
> receiver on the target planet ( or near it ). Voila! Space travel.
> Obviously, speed depends on the method you are using. Problems
> include alignment of transmitter beam, rela- tive velocities, etc.
> Stories: ALL THE BRIDGES RUSTING ( in CONVERGENT SERIES ) by Niven
> ( again )

Another couple of examples of this type: "The Ways of Love" by Poul
Anderson.  Also the "Reformed Sufi" stories by Ray Brown a couple of
years back in Analog.  The Ray Brown stories used the old
record-and-transmit-information-and-destroy-the-original gimmick
with an interesting twist -- one of the planets didn't really have a
receiver but just dumped the information-files of the people into a
massive computer which was programmed to simulate a small part of
the universe.

> 7) Warp drives
> Basically an extension of the rocket motor which will accelerate
> you to above the speed of light. Problems include speed-of-light
> barrier, relativity ( what do we do with the extra mass ? ).
> Stories: STAR TREK.

It isn't terribly clear whether or not the Enterprise is still in
our space when in warp drive or whether it's in subspace.

8. "Relativity, what's relativity?"
  Used in Doc Smith's Skylark series.  Don't worry about
time-dilation, just keep on accelerating and ignore all relativistic
effects.  (I don't recommend anyone implement this one--I have more
faith in Spec. Relativity than Doc Smith does :-)

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 87 06:06:49 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths )

ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis) writes:

>This one has to do with methods of "Flipping a spaceship between
>the furthest stars," and their side-effects. The systems I know of
>at present are

You forgot a few:

(1) Spindizzies

(2) ``Alderson drive'' -- similar to spindizzies in that it's based
    on as-yet undiscovered physics; but the equations for this one
    exist.  Ask Dan Alderson sometime.

(3) Dickson's ``phase-shift'' drive (actually, this is a more
    ``serious'' version of the Improbability Drive...)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 19:01:01 GMT
From: berry@solaria..ARPA (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Stardrives ( was Niven teleport booths )

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis):
>> This one has to do with methods of "Flipping a spaceship between
>>the furthest
>You forgot a few:

He also missed the Tipler Machine -- a massive dense rotating
cylinder which has time like geodesics in its vicinity.  Cf. THE
AVATAR by Poul Anderson (complete with references to Tiplers papers
in Phys. Rev. Lett.)  and John de Chancie's STARRIGGER series.

Berry Kercheval
berry@mordor.s1.gov
{ucbvax!decwrl,siesmo}!mordor!berry
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Special Studies Program ("O" division)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 15:44:28 GMT
From: ain@s.cc.purdue.edu (Patrick White)
Subject: Bussard ramjet impossible

   I just finished reading an article posted to sci.space (article
<8702161535.  AA16581@angband.s1.gov> written by Gary Allen) about
why the Bussard ramjet is impossible.  Since I thought it might be
of interest to some of the readers of this group, I am going to
follow with a short (!) summary of what he writes.

   It seems that Gary found the origional paper by R. W. Bussard and
checked the calculations.  Although the calculations are correct, he
found two "bugs" that make the ramjet infeasable:
   1) Intersteller hydrogen is 10,000 times LESS dense than what
      Bussard thought, and most of what hydrogen is there is useless
      for fusion outside of the core of a star,
   2) The magnetic field necessary to capture the hydrogen would be
      strong enough to destroy the ship -- even if it was made out
      of diamond.

   If you are interested in Gary Allen's calculations, please read
his origional posting first (I have a copy if you need one) and
direct questions to him.  Thank you.

Pat White
{ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,decvax}ee.ecn.purdue.edu!s.cc.purdue.edu!ain

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 21:59:58 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: SFWA Advantages

In response to a net question about the advantages of belonging to
SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America): SFWA membership includes
subscriptions to the SFWA Forum, which is a letterzine from members.
The SFWA Bulletin you get, I believe, quarterly, and it contains
articles about SF writers and SF writing, including markets,
editors, who's looking for what kind of book, story, etc.  SFWA has
a grievance committee that can help the writer who might have
trouble with contracts, royalties, and other relations with agents
and publishers.

At WorldCons, NASFICs, and some regional cons, SFWA business
meetings allow one to input on matters of concern to SF writers.  At
Austin in 1985, I proposed that SFWA write NASA to insist that the
first writer taken into space be a SFWAn.  Greg Bear seconded the
motion, and Norman Spinrad said it was a good idea, and the members
present voted in favor of the motion.

SFWA members, by definition, nominate and vote for Nebula
contenders.  I have had the privilege of seeing stories that I was
first to nominate actually make it to some balloting.  (And one of
my own even got to within one vote of the preliminary ballot.)

As a SFWAn, you usually get free memberships to SF conventions; you
stand a chance of becoming a "Special Guest" of some kind when fans
find out you are a "real pro", and there is a general kind of
respect shown to authors at all conventions, whether or not you are
there for free.  (In my own case, somehow this year I will get to MC
two cons--Inconjunction and Contact, in Evansville, Indiana; get to
be a guest at Nexus in Springfield, Mo., first weekend in June, and
be a guest at MuncieCon in Muncie, IN, in May, plus some other
appearances at Millenicon and Rivercon.)  I doubt these
opportunities would have arisen had I not made my SFWA membership
known.  (One mustn't hide the candle, you know.)  It's fun to be on
panels with other pros; Andy Offutt, Joel Rosenberg and I shared a
DeepSouthCon panel with Somtow Suchkaritkul (sp?)  and he had us
rolling in aisles with unbelievable stories.

Some SFWAns say the best part of membership is when the secret cabal
of SF greats lets you into the innermost mystery rites of
initiation, but --well, that's another story, only for those strong
of heart.  Some SFWAns say the best part of memberships is the
nocturnal neural network that you are plugged into and from which
you are allowed to take all those weird story ideas.  Some say that
it is nice to get a dozen paperbacks and the occasional hardcover SF
book from a publisher who wants to make sure you have read their
Nebula nominee, or the magazine that wants you to be sure to read
ALL of their short story nominees...

I say the best part, however, is that you can get into the SFWA
suites at various cons and party with the real pros!  (Partiers,
that is--the real professionals...)

Arlan Andrews

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 87 13:00:41 CST
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: 1987 TUCKER Awards Nomination Form for SF-Lovers readers

               T U C K E R   A W A R D   N O M I N A T I O N S

A new award was instituted in 1985 to recognize the activities of
that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention
partiers.  Every award must, of course, have a nickname; the
official nickname of the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction
Convention Partying is the "Tucker".

The first two years awards were sponsored and administered by the
St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and subsequent awards are
administered by a related group.  The awards will be nominated and
voted on by members of Czarkon 5 (St. Louis' "adult relaxicon"), and
the rest of SF party fandom via convention parties and any fanzines
or SF Club newsletters willing to reprint this nomination form
and/or the final ballot.  ****This includes SF-LOVERS****

There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or
dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan.  Couples or groups are eligible as a
single nominee.  Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is
eligible, but nominees this year must be willing to attend the
presenting convention if they win.  Winners are not eligible for
re-nomination in any category for a period of 5 years; losing
nominees are eligible again the following year.  The 1985 and 1986
winners were:
                            1985                         1986
Special Grand Master Award: Wilson "Bob" Tucker
SF Professional:            Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle   Glen Cook
SF Artist:                  David Lee Anderson           Dell Harris
SF Fan:                     Glen Boettcher &             Dick Spelman
                              Nancy Mildebrandt
The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice
bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year,
award name, and the winner's name.  An instant tradition was begun
in 1985: the winners received their awards full, but took them home
from the convention empty (many self- sacrificing volunteers helped
empty the awards).

To nominate someone for a 1987 Tucker Award, write their name (both
names for a couple) and address opposite the applicable category on
the form below, detach it along the dotted line, and mail it to
TUCKER NOMINATIONS, PO Box 1058, St. Louis, MO 63188.  Photocopied,
hand-printed, or typed equivalents of the nomination form are
acceptable.  If you don't know a nominee's address, and don't think
the Award Committee will either, if possible please include on the
back of the form or a separate sheet the name of a prominent SF
person (whose address we CAN determine) who may know the nominee and
might be able to give us an address.  Your own name and address are
requested, but not required, to further assist in tracking down
unknown-to-us nominees.  [Giving us your address will assure that
you are mailed a final ballot, too.]

Network people may also send electronic facsimiles to
"zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA"

---------------NOMINATING DEADLINE IS 1 JUNE 1987-----------------

                   1987 TUCKER AWARD NOMINATIONS

PRO TUCKER    name:___________________________________________________

           address: __________________________________________________

ARTIST TUCKER name: __________________________________________________

           address: __________________________________________________

FAN TUCKER    name: __________________________________________________

           address: __________________________________________________

         YOUR NAME: __________________________________________________

           address: __________________________________________________

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Mar 87 1042-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Mar 87 1042-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Conventions (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87  22:57:23 EST
From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: About Boskone Rumors....

Hi,
    I have seen some Boskone XXV literature, and have discovered the
following about Boskone XXV

1) They will be de-emphasizing the film show show.
2)    "    "  "              "   " huckster's room.
3) They will be toning down the convention suite.

These are facts taken from Boskone XXV fliers.  Here is the rumor
that I have heard:
     Alcohol will not be allowed at open parties.

    I am personally not to sanguine on items 1-3, but I feel that
removing alcohol from open parties would be a good thing.  My
perception of Boskone, and some other people's feelings about
Boskone are as follows:

"It's a great con, the art show astounds, but there is really too
much of a keg party aspect to the convention."

    I believe that banning alcohol at open parties is a good idea,
and I was wondering if this was actually going to be the policy.
Considering the huge crush of attendees this year, I don't think
that anyone would miss the "party animals" that show up now.

Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 17:25:06 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

becky@sq.UUCP (becky) writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rich Kolker) writes:
>>Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone
>>among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total
>>spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major
>>regional status.
>> ...  So this is my point.  The major regionals do have an
>>obligation to cover the full spectrum of sf.  ...
>As far as I can see, you haven't said WHY these cons have this
>obligation.
>
>Suppose I hold a party, and I make it an open party, and lots of
>people come and we have a great time.  I do it again, and we have a
>great time again.  And so on.  But the party gets bigger, and a lot
>of the people I first invited stop coming, because one particular
>group, that's advertised the party to lots of people of their
>specialized interests, has grown too large and loud to ignore.  The
>people I want to hold a party for/with no longer feel comfortable,
>and can no longer talk about the things they're interested in
>because they're constantly being interupted by people who aren't
>interested in the same things.

Is there any such thing as an "obligation to fandom" (as an amorphus
whole).  I don't know.  I always felt it when I ran conventions.

I would never argue with Boskone (or any other con) having the right
to do anything they want, including limiting programming to left
handed non-swimming writers of blank sf verse (no fantasy).  Perhaps
it is unfair to put the load of all of fandom on a major regional
that became that partially due to the fact it's been around longer.

I felt the same way about Disclave (Washington, DC) when I started
attending and found out programming began at 2pm and ended at 4pm
(that's changed now).

I suppose part of my problem with Boskone's "focusing" is that I
don't believe they're doing it for the reasons they say they are (or
at least not totally for those reasons).  Any NESFANS on the net
that can give us some of the "behind the scenes" on this?

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 17:32:27 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

becky@sq.UUCP writes:
> A Con that has that strong a rep has a responsibility to advertise
> changes they're making in their programming goals.  Toronto's only
> local con (boo hoo) is really a party con - or it's seemed so in
> the past, at any rate - but its advertisements include info about
> wonderful programming ideas, and interesting, thought-provoking
> guests...  Although I would like to see a Toronto-regional con
> that caters to people who (can read) enjoy good programming (other
> than the back-rubbing seminar), Ad Astra has every right to be
> whatever they want to be.  I just wish they'd advertise what
> they're all about, rather than trying to bring people to a con
> they might very well not enjoy.

I have to disagree with your comment about Ad Astra being primarily
a party con.  I and several friends, none of whom can really be
considered major-league party goers (one of them has a phobia about
drunks which extends even to the quietest of them), attended last
years Ad Astra and had a fine time.  They had a number of
interesting guests, including Roger Zelazny (GOH), Steven Brust and
Guy Kaye.  I actually found more panels of literary interest (to me
personally) there than at this year's Boskone, and left feeling that
the Toronto fen were, in general, friendly, relaxed people.  I still
feel it was well worth the trip, in spite of the fact that we drove
(about 8 hrs), and would be going again this year if I weren't
saving for Conspiracy.  Next time I'll probably take a plane though
-- four fans in a car with no air conditioning in July for 8 hrs.
can get VERY strange.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 17:31:16 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Boston Worldcon loses hotel!

It was announced on Delphi last night that the hotel that was to
host the Boston Worldcon has cancelled their contract, so the
Worldcon currently is without a home.  That hotel was the same hotel
that hosted Boskone this year, and evidently the problems at Boskone
caused it to reconsider its policy of having Cons.  That's all I
have now, I'll pass on more details when I get them.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 11:25:17 GMT
From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey)
Subject: Re: Request for Worldcon Info

6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld) writes:
> Does anyone know what hotel Conspiracy (Worldcon '87) will be in?

The Convention will be centred on the Brighton Conference Centre:
that's where the registration desk will be located, and the major
events held.  This is adjacent (and attached) to the Brighton
Metropole hotel - however that hotel is fully booked; there's been a
ballot for rooms, but I've not yet heard any results.

A couple of reminders: dates are 27 August - 1 September 1987.
Attending rates go up on 1 April to 38 pounds UK, 65 dollars US
(elsewhere please send equivalent of sterling rate); children (8 to
14) half attending rate.

In latest PR, the Committee appeal for help in locating members for
whom they don't have correct addresses - anyone who knows how to
locate any of them please write to Conspiracy '87, PO Box 43,
Cambridge CB1 3JJ, U.K.
    Donald J. Bailey
    Michael Banbury
    Harry Beckwith
    Janet Beckwith
    Alex Boster
    Judith Bratton
    John J. Cleary
    Suzanne Cornwell
    Mandy Dakin (UK)
    Dennis Etchison
    Michael Katt
    R. K. Lewis
    Michael McIntyre
    Shaw Ostermann (UK)
    Katherine Pott
    William E. Priester
    Kathryn L. Pritz
    T. K. F. Weisskopf
    Eileen Wight
    Marjorie Wight
    Marv Wolfman
    Linda L. Wright
(All last heard of in USA, except where noted.)

Regards,

Peter Mabey
phm@stl
mcvax!ukc!stl!phm
+44-279-29531 x3596

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 03:36:33 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

Rich, I'm not sure what reasons you think NESFA has, and what
mysterious hidden reasons you suspect, as to why they want to shrink
Boskone and how they plan to do so.  But I'll take a stab at saying
what *I* think are the causes/reasons.

First a disclaimer. While I'm a NESFA subscribing member, and have
been staff at the last several Boskones, I live in LA and obviously
don't make it to NESFA/Boskone meetings. What I'm about to write is
totally my opinion, which I think is derived from a reasonable
amount of information, but which in no way should be considered to
be officially representing NESFA.

I haven't gotten my Instant Message (the NESFA clubzine) with the
debriefing yet, but based on what I heard at the con, actual, warm
bodies at the con, attendence, was over 4200 people.

Read that again. 4200 people. Plus. There've only been about 5 or
six *Worldcons* which were larger. And worldcons are stretched out
over a week, and at most a group will run one only every nine years
or so, and they'll have 2-3 years to get ready for it. Boskone is
held every year, by the same group of non-paid volunteers.

Rich, I know that you've run cons (and the few that I was able to
make were run quite well too). But how big was the largest August
Party? Was it even over a thousand? And I'm pretty sure it wasn't
over 1500.  And what happened to them? Well, one reason I heard was
committee burnout; it was getting too big, and it was too much work.
And those, definitely for the most part, and perhaps ever, weren't
1/4 the size of the last Boskone.

And worse, the Boskone numbers keep increasing. This year's
attendance was up at least 11% over last year's. It's been growing
steadily for several years.

So just the sheer size causes the following;
1) More work each year, up to the point that it's now almost like
   running a worldcon every year.
2) Fewer facilities that can hold it. Right now, there are exactly
   two hotels in the city of Boston that can handle a con the size
   of Boskone.
3) More problems. Even assuming that the twit population stays at
   the same percentage of members as the numbers go up (an
   assumption that I'm not totally sure of; I think it goes up
   myself), an increase in size means that there are just more
   people running around who have IQs roughly equal to room
   temperature and about as much sense of responsibility.

So the con is just too darn big. Clearly something needs to be done
to cut down the size, or else it'll collapse of its own weight. The
current size is a crisis point, due to various logistical problems
involving hotel facilities and the Hynes renovation.

NESFA has decided that certain things at Boskone just aren't as
important to them as other things. Given the size and rate of
growth, Boskone can't be all things to all fans any more. The hope
is presumbably that if certain things aren't available at the con,
some people will stop coming. Given a choice between keeping what
the people working on the con are most interested in, and what
they're not as interested in but which appear to draw people, guess
which'll be the most likely to be cut out.

My own theory is that Boskone and NESFA are victims of their own
success; to a degree, Boskone is *too* well run; people know that
there won't be massive screwups and the like, and the feel of the
con is consistent from year to year.  I'd expect to see an
attendance limit placed on the con in the next few years if
attendance doesn't start shrinking on its own. Which I personally
doubt that it will.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 20:25:21 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: AUGUST PARTY puts on a relaxicon

Absolutely, positively, without-a-doubtly NOT

                   T H E  A U G U S T   P A R T Y

Seriously folks if you've read/heard about past August Parties
(1975-85) this isn't it...that's too much work

What the old crew is doing is putting on a relaxicon.  Only one
piece of formal programming, a lot of informal fun, munchies and fen
(fans).

WHERE: The MARIOTT COURTYARD in New Carrollton, MD

WHEN: July 31, August 1 & 2 (most of the concom's arriving Friday
      night)

WHAT: The one piece of programming is the traditional Gene
      Roddenberry phone call, where Gene will fill us in on ST:TNG
      and whatever else we want to ask.

      Saturday, we'll have discount tickets for Wild World, a water
      and amusement park with water slides, wave pool, rides, a good
      wooden roller coaster, etc.

      Whatever else happens will be spur of the moment, around the
      pool and jacuzzi.  There are usually some computers and video
      machines.  A bunch of folks will probably drive up to
      Baltimore for Photon.

ADDRESS (see below)

QUESTIONS?  Email me.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 17:33:27 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>I have to disagree with your comment about Ad Astra being primarily
>a party con.  I and several friends, none of whom can really be
>considered major-league party goers (one of them has a phobia about
>drunks which extends even to the quietest of them), attended last
>years Ad Astra and had a fine time.

With all the pro-Ad Astra comments I've been getting from various
different places, I'm beginning to suspect my only trouble with Ad
Astra is that I've been around too long.  I mean, I knew that one of
the unpleasantries was the mass of yucky-fen who know me because we
all go to the same parties...  Maybe I've been prevented from seeing
the good side of the con because the bad side always comes to talk
to me...  (how come fame doesn't come with fortune?  SIGH!=:^)

IN ANY CASE, if any of you netters can come up for a visit, please
do.  One of the GoHs this year is CJCherryh, and both the dealers'
room and programming schedule are already filled-up.  It will be
held the weekend of June 12-14 at the Howard Johnson's Airport
Hotel, Toronto.  AD ASTRA will also be this year's "Canvention",
which means a bunch of Canadian-sf awards and, apparently, some
French programming.  I'll post part of the flyer if I can ever
remember to, but you can always mail me (or several other T.O.
people) for info.  It's bound to be fun, because after all I'LL be
there ;^)

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 19:16:28 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boston Worldcon loses hotel!

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>It was announced on Delphi last night that the hotel that was to
>host the Boston Worldcon has cancelled their contract, so the
>Worldcon currently is without a home.  That hotel was the same
>hotel that hosted Boskone this year, and evidently the problems at
>Boskone caused it to reconsider its policy of having Cons.  That's
>all I have now, I'll pass on more details when I get them.

Negotiations are still going on between Noreascon III, the 1989
Boston Worldcon, and the Sheraton Boston Hotel and Towers, so I
would not jump to any conclusions.  In any case, Noreascon III
currently has space blocked at at least four other Boston hotels.
It has also reserved an additional 82,000 square feet of space at
the Hynes Convention Center, which would be enough to more than make
up for all function space in the Sheraton Boston if it turns out to
be unavailable.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 09:03:28 PST (Thursday)
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: XCON

Shoshanna writes:
>If the X-fen are left out in the cold with nowhere to go for their
>X-activities, that is a sign that they should take some
>responsibilty for themselves. (X-Con 1, I can see it now...)

Well, here it is, but it's 11, not 1.

XCON 11(Jun11-14) Olympia Spa &Resort, Oconomowoc,WI.
GOH: Hal Clement, AGOH: Erin Mckee, FGOH: Jan Howard Finder (the
Wombat).  Info: XCON 11, Box 7, Milwaukee, WI 53201.

You asked for it, you got it!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Mar 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #83
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #83
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:

                Books - Eddings & Gibson (8 msgs) &
                        Hogan & Holland & Lee & Martin &
                        Pangborn & Zimmer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 21:50:53 GMT
From: watnot!jrmartin
Subject: The Belgariad

I am a big fan of the Belgariad and I am looking forward to the new
series by David Eddings.  It seems that everybody loves that book.
I'd really look forward to hearing from anybody who really enjoyed
the book and would like to talk about some of the things that are
left unexplained in it.  I would also be more than happy to hear
anything else about when the new series is coming out.

JRM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 23:05:56 GMT
From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula pick
>ever, even worse than Neuromancer.

Okay.
I'll bite.
What did you not like about *Neuromancer*?

I'm curious.  I really enjoyed it.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 87 23:44:39 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books

soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes:
>tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula pick
>>ever, even worse than Neuromancer.
>
>Okay.
>I'll bite.
>What did you not like about *Neuromancer*?
>
>I'm curious.  I really enjoyed it.

All style and no substance.  It was like the late sixties all over
again.  A few weeks ago, I was reading Aldiss' excellent critical
history of science fiction, "Trillion Year Spree", and got to the
discussion of Samuel Delaney and his imitators in the 1960's and
1970's.  Aldiss' conclusions about the reasons for style coming to
overwhelm substance in some branches of SF seemed very clearly
accurate to me, and made me think, without any explicit references,
of the new cyberpunk revolution and Gibson in particular.  I then
turned to a footnote in the back and saw Aldiss citing Neuromancer
as a modern example of the same kind of thing!  This is the sort of
independent replicability of observations I was talking about when I
referred before to objective factors entering into judgments of
literary merit.

But this is not any sort of evidence, and in fact I will not try to
convince you, that the book is bad.  I'll just tell you why I don't
like Gibson and similar writers.  Setting and its sister style are
paramount at the expense of plot, character, and theme.  I grow
impatient with stories containing descriptive passages of beauty
which obviously involved much work and rewriting, yet little
attention to the actual personalities of the characters the book is
about.  Given Gibson's lack of any consistent or coherent theme,
there is little to commend in the book except the language, and that
just doesn't hold my interest in the face of the weakness of other
story elements.

In addition, most of the plot elements are artificial.  An even
better example (largely because fresher in my mind) is Gibson's
collaboration with Michael Swanwick, "Dogfight", which I thought was
a dreadful story.  Rather than have a personality conflict of some
sort between the male and female leads, G&S introduce tension into
the situation by subjecting the poor girl to a "mind-lock" that
prevents her from having sex.

I could go on, but this god-damned editor keeps crashing and the
sysops here never act on my bug reports and I don't feel like typing
in the tail of the article for the third time.  Make that fourth; it
just crashed again.  In summary, Neuromancer is long on style but
short on content, and anti-humanistic in the artificial and
contrived way its characters relate.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 87 20:29:16 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Dune and Big Books (Neuromancer)

******POSSIBLE SPOILER HERE******

Gibson himself (in an interview in Rolling Stone, I believe) says
the purpose of Neuromancer was to show people succumbing to the
myriad ways available for them to screw up. I think he did this very
well.
  Also, I found the lack of characterization in the context of this
book useful.The idea was to set a mood where nobody knew about or
truly understood anyone else. The world was one in which, sadly,
people were alienated from each other, but didn't really WANT to be
(unfortunately, this sounds a little too much like the real world).
People (in the book, Case) try to return to human values, but are
drowned in synthetic, disposable technology and fail.
  Notice that almost all of the color in the book was not color at
all; it was black and white, silver, platinum, chrome (especially
black chrome), mirrors, black mirrors, and all sorts of metallic
hues. The characters and the reader are blind. They cannot reach
common understanding, and destiny just kind of blows them along.
  If, when you read SF, you want every detail spelled out for you,
leaving nothing for your own imagination and contemplation, then I
can see why you dislike Neuromancer, but the book has a lot of
relevant messages and food for thought in it.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 87 17:45:55 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Dune, Necromancer, and objective literary criticism

> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
>> soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen)
>>> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
>>>I think Dune is the single most embarrassing Hugo-plus-Nebula
>>>Ipick ever,
>>>even worse than Neuromancer.
>>Okay. I'll bite. What did you not like about *Neuromancer*?
>>I'm curious.  I really enjoyed it.
> All style and no substance.  It was like the late sixties all over
> again.  [...etc, etc...]

I disagree only slightly with Tim's evaluation.  Though, I'd be
interested in what Tim thought of "True Names", if he saw it.  Much
better in my opinion despite the slight computer implausibilities.
But much as I agree that the "cyberpunk" genre in general and
Neuromancer in particular are overrated, that's not what I really
wanted to say, which is related instead to this:

> Aldiss' conclusions about the reasons for style coming to
> overwhelm substance in some branches of SF seemed very clearly
> accurate to me, and made me think, without any explicit
> references, of the new cyberpunk revolution and Gibson in
> particular.  I then turned to a footnote in the back and saw
> Aldiss citing Neuromancer as a modern example of the same kind of
> thing!  This is the sort of independent replicability of
> observations I was talking about when I referred before to
> objective factors entering into judgments of literary merit.

As I said before, I think that many people are confusing "objective"
with "true of many people".  Even things that are true of ALL people
are not necessarily objective truths.  Take "coldness" as an
example.  Now temperature is an objective thing.  Any observer who
can read a thermometer must, in principle, see the same thing.  But
whether it is cold outside is an inherently subjective thing.  Even
if all the people you know think it is cold, there might in
principle be a member of the polar bear club (or a real live polar
bear for that matter) who would think that it was merely pleasantly
cool, or maybe even that it was warm.

Things which are "measured" by sentient beings like humans,
audiences for literature, maybe even polar bears, are subjective.
Things that are "measured" by nonsentient things like thermometers,
voltmeters, and other things that in principle give the same results
to any sentient observer are objective.  I'm aware that the two
groups overlap to some extent, but I still think that literary merit
is so strongly subjective that I have problems understanding how
anyone would think otherwise.

Again, this is not to say that there are not elements of literary
merit that are not widespread.  This is only to say that no standard
of literary merit (and thus nobody's idea of what's "good" and "bad"
literature) is objectively better than any other.

Looping back, this is, by the way, why I liked Tim's review of
Neuromancer, apart from the fact that I somewhat agree with his
conclusion.  Tim explained what was important TO HIM in the book,
and where it failed HIS STANDARDS.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 86 20:32:39 pst
From: trwrb!davstoy!dav@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (David L. Markowitz)
Subject: Cyberpunk

My roommate asks:

        How would you define Cyberpunk?

I thought you all might like a shot at that.

David L. Markowitz
Rockwell International
sdcsvax!ucivax!csuf!davstoy!dav

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 08:20:46 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk

>How would you define Cyberpunk?

Everyone who wants to be William Gibson but can't be.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 18:06:54 GMT
From: mapper!ksand@rutgers.edu (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk

>How would you define Cyberpunk?

Whopee! Cyberpunk is computers, cyberspace (where young hackers
dwell today) and drugs, a kind of hard-living people in future,
japanese marketing, neon-lights, multinational companies and total
pollution.

The first step into "Cyberpunk" is of cource Gibson's "Neuromancer".
What do you others feel , is cyberpunk the new new-wave of sf?

Kent Sandvik
UNISYS UNIX Support, SWEDEN
PHONE:  (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home
ARPA:   enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:   ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 22:14:45 GMT
From: osupyr!twd@rutgers.edu (The Twid)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk

>How would you define Cyberpunk?

Read this month's SPIN magazine for a in-depth discussion of
cyberpunk.

Todd Dailey
twd@osupyr.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 08:02:09 PST (Friday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Nonaggression in James P. Hogan's Giants trilogy

rlk@athena.mit.edu (Robert L Krawitz) writes:
>One problem: the kamikaze trait would tend to get bred out of the
>population.  The folks who could avoid this kamikaze role would
>tend to have more offspring.

This has long been hashed out among biologists in order to explain
the behavior of social animals such as bees, termites, and so on.
The genes are the important aspect, not the individual animals. The
willingness of these animals to sacrifice themselves can work in
direct proportion the the degree of 'relatedness' between the
kamikaze and those he protects.  This is why worker bees are so
willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the hive. They are
assuring the survival of many closely related gene sets, and so the
genes get the immortality they are after (hopeless exaggeration on
my part, the genes actually want nothing, but the statistics of the
thing work out. Ask Stephen Jay Gould, who figured this out a few
years back). Therefore, the kamikaze tactic can make good
evolutionary sense (just like it can for bees).

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 09:23:33 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

wwd@rruxg.UUCP writes:
>A contrary voice: I read it in the light of her short story "The
>Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" in which we are presented with a
>seemingly ideal utopia, but which bears some hidden oppression. The
>anarchist world is flawed in that people are not free to follow
>intellectual pursuits because of the economic struggle they all
>must face for survival. The 'hero' of the novel tries to resolve
>this but only gains rejection because of the prejudices of his
>fellow 'anarchists'.

While we're on anarchists and not quite ideal utopias, I would
recommented "Floating Worlds" by Ceceilia Holland.  Quite
intersting, especially because C.H. is primarily a historical
novelist who doesn't give a fig about romance.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 20:33:42 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Tanith Lee's "Flat Earth" series

aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes:
> Tanith Lee has a good series going, I have heard it referred to as
> the flat earth series.  First book is Night's Master.  Short,
> loosely connected stories but good background.  Next is the best:
> Death's Master.  I think Delusion's Master was next but after that
> it is starting to go downhill.

I'll give a contrasting viewpoint.  I think that Delirium's Mistress
(the one that follows Delusion's Master, and the latest one I've
seen) is the best of the series so far (a close second to Night's
Master).

However the individual books are rated, the series as a whole is
double-plus-good.  The feel of the series is that Lee is sort of
taking you on a guided tour of her "Flat Earth" world, pointing out
places and events of interest to the reader, and providing a stream
of commentary by turns funny, moving, tragic, but always
interesting.  It has a very strong interactive feel to it... Lee is
manifested here as a GREAT storyteller.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 19:26:46 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin

This book is a collection of stories about a man who acquires a
mobile space-based biowarfare laboratory, and what he does with it.
It has a strong ZPG subtext, and gets somewhat preachy at times, but
is a good read nevertheless.  It is hard to put my finger on just
why I like this book so much.  I suspect it is because in some ways
the protagonist, Haviland Tuf, is a sort of Lt. Columbo analog.
Columbo comes across as a fuzzy minded slob, but under this
appearance he has a quick mind and a keen eye.  Haviland Tuf comes
across as an effete incompetent, but when the going gets tough, Tuf
gets going.  (You didn't imagine for a moment I'd skip that pun, did
you?) In essence, what caught my interest was the continual question
of "what does Tuf have up his sleeve THIS time?" And Martin provides
interesting answers every time.

I recommend the book highly.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 20:03 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Post-Holocaust Works

Someone may already have mentioned this (as arpa sf-lovers is a wee
bit behind right now), but I can recommend (without reservation) the
works of Edgar Pangborn, many of which are set on a post-holocaust
earth (some of it near Albany, New York, where I currently live).
There are two novels that I am aware of, "Davy" and "The Company of
Glory" and many short stories, at least some of which were collected
in paper back some years back.  I have no idea if they are currently
in print in any form.

Richard Welty
welty@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Mar 87 01:39:26 est
From: shades@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Geoffrey Dov Cooper)
Subject: paul zimmer's latest book

From what I last heard, and admittedly this is a little hazy as I
have not talked with Paul in a while, Paul finished up the
'prequel' book last October/November.  With the normal publication
lag this means that the book should be out sometime in the 4th
quarter of this year.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Mar 87 1011-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #84
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 87 1011-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #84
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Terminology (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu,  5 Mar 87  16:41:52 EST
From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

Hi,
    I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons:
1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff.  They
are the ones who get really offended.
2) Everyone understands what SCI-FI is.  Most of the world does not
know what S.F. is.

    It is my belief that S.F. is a popular term because it is
somewhat obscure.  It defines an "in group" through jargon.

Matthew G. Saroff

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Mar 1987 10:57:02-PST
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Terminology

Normally, I would refrain from joining in a discussion of
terminology, especially when it's defining "science fiction" versus
"fantasy."  Several noters have been trying to define "SF."  To my
mind, this is Science Fiction.  Someone mentioned the phrase
"Science Fantasy," which is bound to stir the soup of Science
Fiction/Fantasy elements.  When I'm trying to define science fiction
versus fantasy, "science fantasy" seems like an oxymoron.

I use the amount of scientific versus non-scientific speculation for
my personal yardstick.  Science fiction is based on technology and
the physical laws we recognize in our known universe.  Fantasy
involves any powers or physical laws that are not known and
recognized by scientists, like magic, ESP, and so forth.  In either
case, obviously, the author must be internally consistent.

By this definition, teleportation can be used in either genre.  If
teleportation is achieved with a machine or device of some sort,
it's science fiction.  If teleportation is a form of magic (like a
gem or spell), or through telekenesis, then it qualifies as fantasy.
I'm not too particular, though, and I can name plenty of books that
straddle the two sub-genres.  Shoshanna asked if we could think of
fantasy fiction with spaceships in it.  I recommend "The Ship Who
Sang" (by Anne McCaffrey? -- impending senility!).  The main
character was a mixture of human/machine, which seems fairly
fantastic to me.

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  8 Mar 87 13:36:57 PST
From: Chuck Boeheim <GQ.CTB@forsythe.stanford.edu>
Subject: Fantasy and Science Fiction

krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens) writes:
>I've been thinking that perhaps we're describing a spectrum of
>stories.  If "pure" fantasy is Primary Red and "pure" science
>fiction is Primary Blue, then we can have a smooth shift of
>Red-through-Magenta-to-Blue, and we should be able to make note of
>examples at each extreme to go with your list of stories more or
>less at the Magenta mix.

I like that image!  It also suggests that the problem with
classifying stories is the same as the problem that astronomers
originally had with classifying stars: since we are all 'coming
from' different directions, we each perceive stories as red or blue
shifted by doppler effect!

Chuck Boeheim,
Stanford University
GQ.CTB@Stanford (bitnet)
GQ.CTB@Stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1987 11:07 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: SF vs Sci-Fi - A Meta-logical Comment

In "Triton" Samuel Delaney presents a discussion of meaning and
function of phrases like "Science Fiction" which should be read by
any who want to argue about "SF" vs "Sci-Fi". This is in Appendix B
( Some informal Remarks toward the Modular Calculus, Part Two,
sections I thru IV). The discussion of "meta-logic" in the story is
also somewhat relevant.

My model of what is said is that the "meaning" does not name a set
of alternatives but merely indicates the central position in a space
of measurements. Thus SF is not a collection of stories with some
property.  Instead it points out some properties some of which are
likely to be possessed by an "SF" work.

In this view the discussion has an entertainment value and is a work
of fiction in its own right. I look forward to reading some truly
outrageous ideas in the future. Here are some provocations:

(1) Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced science is
indistinguiahable from magic.

(2)"Forbidden Planet" is clearly Shakespeare's "Tempest" minus the
humor.

(3)"The Glass Bead Game"/"Magister Ludi" by Hesse is a future
history but "great literature" and so not "SF".

(4)Before the pulps, "SF" was written by all authors without it
being labelled as such.

(5)SF is a metric which measures the size of the belief that has to
suspended to read something. The unit is "mind-boggles per chapter".

By the Way: I have only seen the UK, Corgi Edition of "Triton"
(1977). It is possible that it was published in the US under a
different name in the US.

I would like to hear what people have made of Delaney's books - they
get under my skin and itch.

Dick Botting, Comp Sci Dept, Cal State, San Bernardino
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 00:10:17 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Justifying Fantasy

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>Isn't it sort of futile to try to fit explanations of "why dragons
>flame, and how they fly," and "why unicorns only eat virgins" and
>"why there could be centaurs" and all this claptrap, into some sort
>of pseudo-scientific framework?

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, bruce, but while Science Fiction
can always fall back on the facts, Fantasy can't, which means that
to succeed it must be internally consistent.  Thinks which 'can't'
happen, must be explained somehow (unless you're writing for kids,
and the kids will see through it anyway).

Mike Resnick recently published his first Fantasy, Stalking the
Nightmare.  And, according to Mike, his last, because trying to get
Fantasy right is MUCH harder than getting SF right -- you don't have
any basis to start from, so you have to put it all together
yourself.

You have to put it all together, because if it doesn't all come
together, it all falls apart.  This is important in ANY fiction.
CAlling it Fantasy doesn't change the rules, it just switches them
around a bit.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 08:41:48 GMT
From: uhccux!todd@rutgers.edu (The Perplexed Wiz)
Subject: Re: Terminology and Genres

wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn) writes:
>ago.  The case can be made that SF is not really a genre (like
>Westerns, ...  put-your-favorite-non-sf-word-here) mode.  I know
>I've read (or seen) SF western, SF romance, SF action, SF horror,
>SF comedy, SF satire, SF
> [... list of other SF subtypes went here ...]  ...
>distopias/utopias.  Although these are by their nature SF, one can
>also write them in a Descriptive (...) mode.  Examples that spring
>to mind are "Earth

This is a good point but I think that SF is indeed a "genre."  My
dictionary says that "genre" means: a category of artistic, musical,
or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form,
or content.

The linking factor of all SF (and Fantasy too) is that the reader is
asked to be willing to suspend disbelief a bit further than in other
types of fiction.  The reader is asked to accept premises that are
beyond what we normally consider "reality."  The reader is asked a
big "What If."  "What if faster than light travel were possible?"
"What if you could move through time?"  "What if you could ride a
winged flying dragon."  "What if the Roman Empire never fell?"

Todd Ogasawara
U. of Hawaii Computing Center
UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd
ARPA: uhccux!todd@nosc.ARPA
INTERNET: todd@UHCC.HAWAII.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 18:36:03 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

SAROFF@UMass.BITNET writes:
>    I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons:
>1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff.  They
>are the ones who get really offended.

Um, I think I'm offended by that... *grin*

I read a LOT of SF.  I read even more Fantasy.  I don't read Sci-Fi.
I don't allow the use of sci-fi in OtherRealms.  The people who get
offended by the term sci-fi are NOT the people who don't read it,
but the people who don't appreciate the people who don't read it
trying to put us in our place.  sci-fi is a pejorative used by
people to make sure the genre ghetto doesn't break free and move
into their neighborhood.

>2) Everyone understands what SCI-FI is.  Most of the world does not
>know what S.F. is.

Sci-fi are bad movies made with rubber monsters in Japan.  Sci-fi
are bad movies made in America in the 50's with plastic rockets and
sparklers.  Sci-fi is adolescent.  Sci-fi is an unfair negative
connotation foisted by the literati to protect themselves from
facing reality.

SF is a city on the west coast of our country.  It is also a form of
literature, a major publishing market and a way of life for many
people. It does not have negative connotations, except to those who
don't want to read it and are looking to justify their prejudices.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 20:16:46 GMT
From: amdahl!krs (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>SAROFF@UMass.BITNET writes:
>>    I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons:
>>1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff.  They
>>are the ones who get really offended.
>
>Um, I think I'm offended by that... *grin*
>
>I read a LOT of SF.  I read even more Fantasy.  I don't read
>Sci-Fi.  I don't allow the use of sci-fi in OtherRealms.  The
>people who get offended by the term sci-fi are NOT the people who
>don't read it, but the people who don't appreciate the people who
>don't read it trying to put us in our place.  sci-fi is a
>pejorative used by people to make sure the genre ghetto doesn't
>break free and move into their neighborhood.

Glad you *grin*ned, Chuqui!  Ahh, what's in a name?  Well, I use
"Sci-Fi" when talking with anyone about the genre, and *especially*
with novices (even pre-book-1 novices).  They have their prejudices,
so I try to talk 'em out of them and slip a good book into their
hands (minds).

I agree with you about who gets upset and why, I just can't climb
into the boat with those of you sailing that course.  SF is
equivocal, so I only use it when I'm sure that the listener/reader
knows I may be referring to non-scientific "Speculative Fiction"
with or without referring to pure(?) "Science Fiction" at the same
time.  By my definition, you *do* read "Sci-Fi", doncha know?, but
that says something positive about you, *to me*.

I don't use "Sci-Fi" as a pejorative,

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
408-746-6047
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Mar 87 15:15:45-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: SF terminology/classifications

I think Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is a great example of the
hazy borderlines.  The Pocket editions I have are even labeled
differently: The Shadow of the Torturer is labeled Fantasy, The Claw
of the Conciliator is Science Fantasy, The Sword of the Lictor and
The Citadel of the Autarch are Science Fiction!

If pressed, I'd call it Science Fantasy.  Any other opinions?

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 15:24:32 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

   Believe it or not, there actually *are* accepted ways of using
abbreviations, both in speech and writing, which are not limited
to the realm of science fiction (SF).  These apparently mysterious
techniques allow one to write (or speak) about all kinds of topics,
from VLSI (very large-scale integration) to NESDIS, the National
Environmental Satellite Data Information Service.  This, of course,
doesn't deal with the connotation problem, but I always just use the
term in full whenever speaking about it (SF, that is ;-).  In
context, though, it's fairly easy to know the San Francisco SF from
the Science Fiction SF.
   I *do*, however, dislike the Sci-Fi term, for reasons previously
explained by people like Chuq.

Joel Plutchak
uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster
ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu
BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 23:03:20 GMT
From: reed!tim@rutgers.edu (T. Russell Flanagan)
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

SAROFF@UMass.BITNET writes:
>    I use SCI-FI most of the time for 2 reasons:
>1) It helps me identify the fans who *DON'T* read the stuff.  They
>are the ones who get really offended.
>2) Everyone understands what SCI-FI is.  Most of the world dows not
>know what S.F. is.

Well, I don't know about the first argument, but I agree
wholeheartedly with the second, and the "in group" argument
especially.  If you think about it, who is most likely to have
developed the term "sci-fi" in the first place?  Would it have been
mundane media-types who's main purpose was to discredit the science
fiction community and make fun of its members by using a name which
none of them understood as refering to themselves?  Not bloody
likely.  It seems obvious to me that the term "sci-fi" was developed
by the science fiction community itself, or perhaps by a publisher
somewhere.  Given this fact, it seems that the only reason to
abandon the term is simply because the mundane community at large
has figured out what it means, and we want to be special.  I, for
one, use sci-fi to mean science fiction and s.f. to mean either
speculative fiction of any type or, in more mundane surroundings,
San Francisco.

The same trend can be seen with the terms "trekkie" and the newer
"trekker".  Trekkies of course called themselves trekkies before
anybody else did.  Now that everybody and their grandmother knows
what that term means, many prefer to call themselves "trekkers", so
they can be special again.  I am not amused.  I get my only little
"special" revenge by claiming that I have been a trekkie for a long
time, since before this new-fangled "trekker" movement appeared, and
I'll have no truck with that there younger generation...("Crazy
kids...").  I know I'm only 21, but still, I have been a trekkie as
long as I can remember, having watched the original episodes at the
impressionable ages of 1, 2, and 3 (at least my dad SAYS I watched
'em).

T. Russell Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 21:33:11 GMT
From: mtx5c!elb@rutgers.edu (Ellen Bart)
Subject: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

> The same trend can be seen with the terms "trekkie" and the newer
> "trekker".  Trekkies of course called themselves trekkies before
> anybody else did.  Now that everybody and their grandmother knows
> what that term means, many prefer to call themselves "trekkers",
> so they can be special again.

Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).

Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between
episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the
tribbles after the Klingons got them.  We may care about whether the
Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may
watch the cartoons.

A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things, but
for sure he/she cares about Nichelle Nichols's astrological sign and
whether William Shatner got an 'A' in French in 9th grade.

I am proud to be identified with the former group, and, while I
believe the latter group has a right to exist, I certainly do not
want to be identified with them.  Got it?

Ellen Bart

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Mar 87 1035-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #85
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 87 1035-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #85
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:

                    Books - McCaffrey (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 87 18:15:10 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Pern anomaly

   The recent postings on inconsistencies in McCaffrey's Pern books
(something as big as a dragon couldn't fly, etc.) left me thinking
about the general realism in the series, and I realized there is
what I would consider to be a rather large hole in the culture which
has been defined on Pern.  There seems to be no religious belief of
any kind, unless you count a semi-religious veneration of dragon
riders.

   Does anyone have an explanation to offer for this?  I find the
notion of an entire culture operating without any sort of religion
unlikely, particularly in a group which has been reduced to an
essentially feudal society.  Comments?

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 17:03:06 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>The recent postings on inconsistencies in McCaffrey's Pern books
>(something as big as a dragon couldn't fly, etc.) left me thinking
>about the general realism in the series, and I realized there is
>what I would consider to be a rather large hole in the culture
>which has been defined on Pern.  There seems to be no religious
>belief of any kind, unless you count a semi-religious veneration of
>dragon riders.
>
>Does anyone have an explanation to offer for this?  I find the
>notion of an entire culture operating without any sort of religion
>unlikely, particularly in a group which has been reduced to an
>essentially feudal society.  Comments?

I haven't made a habit of talking to people about Pern, but it does
seem like a lot of people have commented on this "problem".  Because
I have never been religious and never felt any desire or need for
religion, I tend to go overboard fighting for societies that lack
that ingredient (though my own fiction tends to involve quite a bit
of it...).  The thing to remember about the people of Pern is that
they are supposedly from our future.  If our future involves
humanity discarding religion altogether (which I agree is unlikely),
then the people of Pern are descendants of a society that came by
its answers without the use of religion.  They may have forgotten
how to do or explain a lot of things, but their teachings would
never involve a "beyond our understanding", or a divine power or
anything.  Every generation would still grow with the idea that
understanding their world is within their grasp - or, perhaps, was
once within the grasp of the ancients.  They don't have any stories
about magic, either.  The original colonists didn't encounter
anything that they didn't believe that they could somehow come to
understand.  (These were people that bred dragons from wee little
fire lizards.)  When would the people of Pern develop a need for
religion?

I know.  Totally off the wall, right?  As above - Comments?

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 22:13:44 GMT
From: jlhamilt@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Jennifer Lynn Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction

As I understand the "Flight of Dragons" (book) idea, dragons fly
because one of the by-products of their digestive processes is
hydrogen.  (Admittedly, they eat some weird stuff...)  I haven't
worked out the math, but it seems that since hydrogen is a lot less
dense than even hot air, the dragon doesn't need to change size
dramatically depending on load.  When not in flight, a special organ
keeps the hydrogen pressurized to normal air density.

With the addition of a special spark-generating device in the mouth,
this allows the dragon to exhale flame.

Jeni Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 18:51:17 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Justifying Fantasy

Isn't it sort of futile to try to fit explanations of "why dragons
flame, and how they fly," and "why unicorns only eat virgins" and
"why there could be centaurs" and all this claptrap, into some sort
of pseudo-scientific framework?

THIS IS FANTASY!!!!

Too bad "Sci-Fi" writers like McCaffrey (and I use the term
deliberately) don't come up with some truly original beasties. (I
did like those fire lizards, though).

No problem if you take Pern as fantasy - I'm sure she wrote it as
such. SO why don't we all do the same.

{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 13:48:59 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

Having read all the Pern books it seems to me that a turn on Pern is
a hell of a lot shorter than an Earth year. I've nothing concrete to
go on but after about 20 turns people like F'lar (horrible naming
system they've got there, I still haven't worked out the rules for
naming children yet) and Lessa have hardly aged, the only person
showing signs of age is Robinton with his heart seizure. Yet at the
same time Jaxom grows up remarkably quickly. Does this mean that
people live longer and thus have a longer period of peak ability,
does it mean that a turn is not as long as an earth year or does it
just mean that McCaffrey didn't think it through properly :-)

    BTW if you haven't read it yet take a look at THE COLOUR OF
MAGIC by Terry Pratchett. It contains a wonderful piss-take of
McCaffrey's dragons as well as lots of other famous fantasy stories
such as Lankhmar. It also contains such an OTT Deus Ex Machina that
it has to be a joke (I think)

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 21:17:29 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction

   I beg to differ on the labeling of McCaffrey's Dragonriders books
as "Hard Fantasy".  At the risk of igniting another argument on just
where the line between (No pun intended) S-F and fantasy lies, I
fail to see just what makes D. of P. anything resembling fantasy.
There is no magic at all (One MAJOR dividing point that I have),
just a LOT of psionic activity.  The society is obviously (Just read
White Dragon) a transplanted Teran population (c. 2000+) which had
undergone a mojor upheaval (Communications with earth were cut off
rather abruptly.)  I consider the series (Well, the Trilogy.  The
last two weren't that great) to be well in the middle of the road of
S-F.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 20:43:31 GMT
From: ee2131ab@ariel.unm.edu (Apollo)
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes:
>I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort
>of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been
>reduced to an essentially feudal society.Comments?

Well excuse me if I am wrong but doesn't the Weyr in
some aspects act like a religion (Mainly in Book One).

   1) Taking a Tariff for the Holds,
   2) Interfering in Hold Politics

I could be wrong (I will not be the first time).

Mark Giaquinto

ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!izar!cs2633bg
cs2633bg@izar.UNM.EDU
{ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!ariel!ee2131ab
ee2131ab@ariel.UNM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 02:17:19 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort
>of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been
>reduced to an essentially feudal society.Comments?

1) She may have had no particular interest in religion or writing
   about religion when she started the series.

2) She may have felt that might have died out or not been popular
   among colonists around the time Pern was settled and that
   subsequent conditions were not favorable for it's
   reestablishment.

3) She may have felt that neo-feudal society of Pern would somehow
   obviate the existence of religion or that the religious implulse
   would instead devolve on the dragons.

4) She may have been interested in working through the conflicts
   between rationalism, tradition and ignorance without the
   confusion of religion.

5) She may not have thought about it.

All novels, even mega-series represent some dramatic condensation
and focusing of interest.  If you went back and looked at many
novels analytically, I'm sure you'll find an amazing number of
things that are simply left out either because the author wasn't
interested, didn't have the space or assumed that what isn't
explictly different will be filled in with the commonplace by the
reader.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 13:18:24 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy and science fiction

mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der Mouse) writes:
> daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>> I'm not too certain where to put the Dragonrider books, for
>> instance.  [...] Why?  Critters the size and mass of dragons
>> can't fly under earth conditions.
>Sure they can.  Read The Flight of Dragons, by Peter Dickson (or
>was it Dickenson?  Jayembee?), illus. Wayne Anderson.  Sorry, don't
>have a publisher or ISBN, but I'm pretty sure one of those last
>names I gave is correct.
>
>Creatures as large as dragons can fly lighter-than-air (Dickenson
>justifies this very convincingly); creatures as small as
>fire-lizards can fly aerodynamically (the way Earth birds of that
>size do).

The justification is brilliant in the book you mentioned but I still
haven't worked out how queen dragons (the largest type of dragon on
Pern) are supposed to fly since they do not chew firestone.

  Then again he probably followed the old established rule
   If the facts don't conform to the theory, ignore'em

It's still a damn good book though the best piece of 'hard' fantasy
I ever read (come to that it's the *only* piece of 'hard' fantasy I
ever read :-)

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 18:42:05 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

ee2131ab@ariel.UUCP writes:
>Well excuse me if I am wrong but doesn't the Weyr in
>some aspects act like a religion (Mainly in Book One).
>
>   1) Taking a Tariff for the Holds,
>   2) Interfering in Hold Politics
>
>I could be wrong (I will not be the first time).

You have an interesting idea of what religion is, Mark... what
you're describing above is a bureaucracy, not a belief. Plenty of
institutions do that sort of thing. Feudal lords (probably the
closest analogy, although not perfect). The U.N. The Federal
Government. And so on.

The Weyrs are not the object of prayer or any kind of worship. The
Weyrpeople are not seen as supernatural in any way. They have no
arcane or mysterious power; their power is strange and unavailable
to most, but it's not a mystery.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 17:15:37 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>The Weyrs are not the object of prayer or any kind of worship. The
>Weyrpeople are not seen as supernatural in any way. They have no
>arcane or mysterious power; their power is strange and unavailable
>to most, but it's not a mystery.

   I'm afraid that you're looking at them from the perspective of a
post WHITE DRAGON observer.  As I remember DRAGONFLIGHT (To be
exact, WEYR SEARCH), most of the holders looked upon the Weyr as a
vary mysterious entity.  I mean LESSA was frightened out of her wits
when she had to face her first hatching.  It wasn't until F'Lar's
reforms that the Weyr became the well known (usually) protective
organization it is (will be?  I have trouble dealing with the tense
which should be present but happens in the future) now.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 08:18:42 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Justifying Fantasy

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>Isn't it sort of futile to try to fit explanations of "why dragons
>flame, and how they fly," and "why unicorns only eat virgins" and
>"why there could be centaurs" and all this claptrap, into some sort
>of pseudo-scientific framework?

Oh, I guess it is futile, but it can be fun, too. At least I enjoy
it.

>THIS IS FANTASY!!!!
>
>No problem if you take Pern as fantasy - I'm sure she wrote it as
>such. SO why don't we all do the same.

Well, it's not hard SF, but I wouldn't call it fantasy. As others
have pointed out, everything about the society does have a "SF" type
explanation. Most SF involves SOME suspension of disbelief; in this
case, you gotta sorta take for granted that dragons can fly. (At
least I don't remember any explanations in the books themselves that
might hold up.)

But I don't think this is particularly worse than, say, FTL, which
is definitely an SF, not fantasy, feature (though it may show up in
fantasy).

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 20:50:32 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

cs2633ba@izar.UUCP (Capt. Gym Quirk) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>The Weyrs are not the object of prayer or any kind of worship.
>
>   I'm afraid that you're looking at them from the perspective of a
>post WHITE DRAGON observer.  As I remember DRAGONFLIGHT (To be
>exact, WEYR SEARCH), most of the holders looked upon the Weyr as a
>very mysterious entity.  I mean LESSA was frightened out of her
>wits when she had to face her first hatching.

Yes, but not because of any religious fear. She had just been
snatched completely out of her accustomed life by people she had
never heard of representing an organization she barely knew, her
life-long goal had been achieved but she had had no chance to get
used to the idea, and now she's dumped in a sandpit with a bunch of
hysterical women without being told what is happening. Note that
F'lar never said "hey, you're gonna watch a dragon hatch and you
should try to be its friend," he just tossed her into the middle of
the hatching. Don't forget that she saw several boys mangled by the
hatchlings before Ramoth emerged, and Ramoth herself killed one of
the girls immediately.

Seems like being scared is a reasonable response...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 20:05:58 GMT
From: ee2131ab@ariel.unm.edu (Apollo)
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>>kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>>I find the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort
>>of religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been
>>reduced to an essentially feudal society.Comments?
>
>3) She may have felt that neo-feudal society of Pern would somehow
>   obviate the existence of religion or that the religious implulse
>   would instead devolve on the dragons.
>
5) She may not have thought about it.

I find myself agreeing with the previous two arguements and
would like to suggest another.

6) Maybe she thought about it but ignore it.

Mark Giaquinto
{ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!izar!cs2633bg
cs2633bg@izar.UNM.EDU
{ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!ariel!ee2131ab
ee2131ab@ariel.UNM.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Mar 87 1053-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #86
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 87 1053-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #86
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Doctor Who (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon,  9 Mar 87  10:01:12 EST
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: doctor who update (a little late sorry!)

It happened that Michael Grade didn't like the things that Colin
Baker was saying about him so he decided to fire him but first he
asked Colin if he would do one more story with a regeneration. Colin
told him that he couldn't fire him becuase HE QUIT and stormed out,
saying he would never play the Doctor again. John Nathan-Turner and
Michael Grade did not quit, those were just rumors. The BBC is
thinking of hiring Steven Spielberg to do the next season and if the
ratings still don't improve the show will probably be cancelled. The
new Doctor will be played by Sylvester McCoy who also appeared in
"Time Bandits" and "The Wizard".

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  9 Mar 87  11:37:51 EST
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Planet of the Daleks

xia@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
>     Oh I have another question here about Dr. Who series.  I
>watched one episode about the Daleks(This time I spell it
>right??!!).  However, it did not finish at all.  It is about the
>Daleks on a planet with a huge refrigeration unit(large enough to
>freeze an ocean??)  The Daleks used some kind of bacteria to attack
>humans.  The episode was cut half way.  The last scene I saw was
>when the bacteria was released prematurely by an accident.  Can
>anyone tell me how did that episode end?

The name of the episode was Planet of the Daleks. **SPOILER**, for
what it's worth: The bacteria was released by Wester, one of the
invisible Spiridons, the natives of the planet. It was released in a
sealed laboratory, trapping the immunized Daleks in there forever,
as the rest of the Daleks had not been immunizd. The Doctor and two
of the Thals manage to enter the Dalek base in disguise. They are
discovered, and are chased down to the bottom level by the Daleks.
They get into the refrigeration area, set up a barricade, and enter
the huge cavern where an army of 10,000 Daleks is in deep-freeze.
They go about searching for big cracks in the walls to put
explosives in. Meanwhile, Jo Grant and another Thal get down there
by way of a shaft to the surface that they had escaped up earlier.
They arrive just in time to see the barricade breached by the
Daleks. The Thal throws the bomb he was carrying at them, bringing
down the walls and ceiling on them. They enter the cavern and join
the others. Meanwhile a Supreme Dakek has arrived on the planet and
takes charge of the operations there. He orders the Dalek army to be
revived, and the refrigeration unit is shut off. The Doctor
accidentally drops the bomb off the catwalk he's on, into the
awakening Daleks. He promptly jumps down, retrieves it, tosses it up
to the Thal leader, and climbs out using a Dalek as a ladder. They
set the explosives and exit via a spiral ramp to the surface that
was meant for the Dalek army to exit by. The explosion causes an
eruption on a nearby ice volcano, flooding the entire Dalek base
with sub-freezing water (this is a very weird planet).  The Thals
use the Dalek Supreme's spaceship to get back to their own planet,
and the Doctor and Jo rush back to the TARDIS being pursued by the
angry Supreme Dalek and his aides.

**END SPOILER**

The story was meant as the sequel to the preceding story, Frontier
in Space, but the continuity was very slim.  I have only seen bits
and pieces of the episode, but I have read the novelization. The
Daleks were originally humanoid beings known as the Kaleds, but
genetic mutation caused by a thousand-year war with the Thals was
turning them into these shriveled green things. The travel casings
were designed by Davros, who foresaw the mutation, but he induced
further mutation that caused the Daleks, as he named them, to have
no morals or compassion. (Genesis of the Daleks, 1975).

Chip Olson
UMass-Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 9 March 1987, 11:41:11 EST
From: Brent Hailpern <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: robots and Dr. Who

xia@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (2/13/87) asked why all the computers in
Dr. Who were evil.  The responses pointed out that most of Eugene's
examples really were problems with people, not the robots.  This is
true but an even better counter-example is K-9.  Not only is K-9 not
evil, but during his two incarnations with the Dr., he often pilots
the TARDIS.  K-9 is knowledgable on all subjects and seems to know
more about the TARDIS and space-time navigation than does the Dr.

Another sometimes friendly robot is Kamelion, who when not under the
Master's influence, is friendly and helpful.

Brent Hailpern
bth@ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 12:48:00 -0800
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: xia@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Dr. Who and the Computers

You are certainly correct about machine-paranoia being a prevalent
SF theme in the past (and present), but Dr. Who is not as biased as
some.  It has as much alien-paranoia (or just bad-guy-paranoia) as
techno-paranoia (this last includes mad scientists and the like).

The main reason for the "bad machine" theme in Dr. Who is simply
that an adventure show needs a conflict, which very often implies a
bad guy (conflicts arising from "bad luck" get boring real fast).
If the new characters are all good, you have something considerably
less interesting than the old lady who lived in a shoe.  Good vs.
evil is a standard conflict, and machines are just as convenient as
organic beings for the role of antagonists, in a science fiction
show where intelligent machines are fair game as characters.

A more real example than the fairy tale above: Imagine an episode
where The Doctor encounters a machine spending all of it's time
persuing the twelve points of the Scout Law, or some such.  Mighty
short show: the BBC would never buy it.  Now add a bad
guy/machine/computer.  The good computer can be fighting it, but
must take on a secondary position to The Doctor who will also fight
the bad guy.  In order to get the most charactor developement of the
main characters (The Doctor and the Bad Guy), the good guy would
only get minor developement.  Now, depicting a machine that is on
Don Quizote's quest cannot be done with justice in a minimum of
lines.  Therefore the best alternative is (almost always) to give
any friendly machines/people very limited characters, into which
complex altruistic motives don't fit well.  Just making them
friendly takes character developement time away from the main
characters.  Granted, occasionally the plot requires greater
developement of a secondary character, but this is rare.  Thus any
good characters you see, whether machine or organic, are shallow
characters and are eclipsed by the stronger evil characters
necessary for most good shows.  You naturally remember the evil
characters since they are so much stronger and better developed.

Some others have already pointed out to you on this bboard that not
all of the "bad" machines were all that bad.  The "Robot", for
example, was actually so good by nature that it was driven mad by
what it was being made to do.  (Of course, ANYTHING that falls for
The Dip---uh, I mean Sarah Jane Smith---has serious problems, in my
book.)  What I don't recall seeing pointed out to you is this
principle of people only remembering the bad guys, due to the
constraints on dramatic presentation.

Naturally the bad machines outnumber the good ones, since we always
need a bad guy, but The Doctor doesn't always need (seldom has) a
strong assisstant character other than his companions.  But I'll
list some friendly machines:

Consider the TARDIS.  Although considered an antique piece of junk
by the Time Lords, it nevertheless is clearly the show's main symbol
of advanced technology.  It is certainly intelligent enough at times
to qualify as a sentient computer, and is (reasonably)
non-homicidal.

Consider K-9.  I can't think of a more friendly computer!

Then there's Chamelion, who is a good egg when not dominated by The
Master, and who eventually commits suicide to protect his friends
from himself.

Well, you may argue, so obviously the machines that The Doctor keeps
near him will be the good ones.  How about the incidentals he meets
on his journeys?  Other than the mistreated ROBOT, and the similarly
misprogrammed Xoanon who becomes downright friendly after he is
straightened out?

The Movellens are quite reasonable beings.  They spend most of their
time killing Daleks.  Of course, they do this only since they plan
to eventually dominate the universe, but then the Time Lords seem
about the only race WITHOUT that goal.  The Movellens are certainly
no more aggressive about it than are the Humans, for example.  They
are perfectly willing to work with The Doctor for mutual benefit,
etc.

In The Robots of Death, we see a race of robots corrupted by another
mad scientist type.  But we also see other members of the same robot
race, who are police agents out to foil the bad guys.  The leader
good-guy robot is a strong character, but can anyone even remembers
his name?  I can't.

The Androids of Tara were not bad, but then they were not bright
enough to be good OR evil.

Although build to wage war, Mentalis was certainly no meglomaniac.
After gaining communication with it (via K-9), The Doctor seemed to
take a liking to it.

Terminus has a repair-robot: not too bright, but smart enough to
make a mutually beneficial deal with The Doctor.

I'm sure ther are many more intelligent robots who assisted The
Doctor, but they are not the things that I remember well, either!
These ones above are the only ones who come to mind at the moment.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 21:41:50 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Planet of the Daleks

castell@UMass.BITNET writes:
>The Daleks were originally humanoid beings known as the Kaleds, but
>genetic mutation caused by a thousand-year war with the Thals was
>turning them into these shriveled green things. The travel casings
>were designed by Davros, who foresaw the mutation, but he induced
>further mutation that caused the Daleks, as he named them, to have
>no morals or compassion. (Genesis of the Daleks, 1975).

Do you know the name of the movie which starred Peter Cushing as Dr.
Who, and which had him in Earths future fighting the Daleks with a
future disease?  This was (as I recall) the Dr.s' introduction to
the Daleks, although he later met them in "Earth 21XX" which has
previously been discussed.

So, what is the name of this movie, and how does it fit into the Dr.
Who timeline?

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Mar 87  15:01:39 EST
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: SF Influences, specifically, Doctor Who.

Well, I noticed that most of the postings on this subject have been
media- and TV related. That's probably because media plots are
dreamed up in a week's time, or less, so there is less scope for
getting really imaginative than there is with novels and the like.
Doctor Who does this sort of thing all the time, though less so in
recent seasons. Not only did they take plot ideas from classic tales
etc., but they also used to go into historical situations.  Here's
all I can think of offhand:

Historical situations:

  1. An Unearthly Child (1963). The first story broadcast. First
     episode introduced the characters, rest was called "The Tribe
     of Gum" and concerned early man's discovery of fire.

  2. Marco Polo (1963?). Doctor meets Marco Polo in China.

  3. The Romans (1964?). Doctor at the court of Nero (I think)

  4. The Myth Makers (?). Doctor involved in Trojan War.

  5. The Smugglers (?). Doctor foils 17th-century smugglers.

  6. The Reign of Terror (?). Doctor in France during Reign of
     Terror.

  7. The Massacre (?). Doctor present at the massacre of the
     Huguenots in 16th-century France.

  8. The Gunfighters (?). Doctor involved in the shootout at the OK
     Corral. Worst story ever by a long shot.

  9. The Highlanders (1967?). Doctor involved in aftermath of the
     defeat of Bonnie Prince Charlie in Scotland in 1745.

  10. Black Orchid (1982). Agatha Christie-ish murder mystery set in
      1920's.

Classical plots:

  1. Pyramids of Mars (1976). A homage to every Egyptian Mummy movie
     ever made, and one of the best stories ever.

  2. The Brain of Morbius (1976). Frankenstein revisited.

  3. Underworld (1977). Jason and the Argonauts in Outer Space.

  4. The Horns of Nimon (1980). Plot lifted almost directly from the
     legend of the Minotaur, complete with similar place- and
     character-names.

  5. State of Decay (1981). Count Dracula in a negative universe.

That's all I can think of for now... if anyone thinks of any more,
please post them.

Chip Olson
UMass-Amherst.
Castell@UMass  (BITNET)
Castell%UMass.Bitnet@WiscVM.Wisc.EDU  (ARPANET etc.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 14:27 CDT
From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: robot mania in Dr. Who

I'm surprised no one has mentioned K-9.  That's the best counter to
the robot phobia claim that I know of.

By the way, the show can hardly be an example of 50's high-tech
paranoia.  It started in 1963 (?) and is still going strong today.
I can hardly believe they're already on the seventh doctor - we
haven't even seen the sixth yet!!  (I did get an advance look at the
fifth, whose name I can never remember - played Tristam on All
Creatures Great and Small.  I was studying over there when the first
show with him aired.)  By the way, I don't have any references to
hand - do I have the numbering right?  Tom Baker - 4,
name-I-can't-remember - 5, Colin Baker - 6, Sylvester McCoy - 7.

Eleanor
evans%ngstl1@ti-eg.csnet
evans%ngstl1%ti-eg@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 22:20:11 GMT
From: jtn@potomac.dc.ads.com (John T. Nelson)
Subject: Dr. Who and the City of Death....

We've all seen the Dr. Who episode entitled "The City of Death" in
which Skaroth (the last of the Jagaroth and the saviour of his race)
commisions Leonardo Da Vinci to produce 12 identical copies of the
Mona Lisa ("La Gioconda" to us connoisseurs).  Since his later self
(which is in contact THROUGH time to his former self) knows the Mona
Lisa will be priceless, he has his former self hide the copies in
France until his later self may sell them to greedy art-snobs as the
original (which he also intends to steal so that each of the art
snobs thinks he is getting a stolen original).

Some say it really happened.  According to rumor, the 1911 robbery
of the Mona Lisa was arranged by an art dealer from Buenos Aires.
His plan was was to have a half dozen forgeries made and then sold
to South American dealers, each of whom not only would believe that
he owned the real painting, but also would keep quite for fear of
criminal prosecution.  If he made his money he planned to return the
original to the Louvre and tell his customers that the Louvre had
created the forgery.

Indeed the Mona Lisa mysteriously reappeared on display in 1913.
But was it REALLY the Mona Lisa?

John T. Nelson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Mar 87 1308-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #87
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 87 1308-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #87
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Kurtz (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 1987 09:13:03-EST
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

I have noticed a major inconsistency between Katherine Kurtz's third
Deryni trilogy and the appendix to _High_Deryni_, the third book of
the first trilogy.  In appendix IV, she discusses the genetic basis
of Deryni powers and says that the Deryni gene is sex-linked and
passed on the X chromosome, so that a Deryni male and a "human"
female could never produce a son with Deryni powers (although they
could have a Deryni daughter).  Since Duncan inherited his Deryni
powers from his mother, he has the X' chromosome, but there is no
way he could have passed this on to his "son" Dhugal.

There is another way to inherit Deryni powers, on the Y chromosome,
which is obviously passed from a father to all of his sons, as in
the royal Haldane line.  In this appendix, Ms. Kurtz goes on to say
that the awakening of this type of Deryni power is difficult and
that it may be passed for many generations unknown to the bearers of
the gene.

So we are left with two ways that Dhugal could wind up with Deryni
powers - either his mother (whoever she was) was a Deryni who didn't
know her heritage (similar to Kelson's mother), or his father,
either in the McLain line if Duncan was really his father, or in the
MacArdry line if Duncan was jumping to unwarranted conclusions,
carried the Y' chromosome and didn't know it.  In either case, there
is no definite way to prove, one way or another, that Duncan is the
father, and in fact, the odds are against it.

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 01:20:36 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

From: wyzansky@NADC
>I have noticed a major inconsistency between Katherine Kurtz's
>third Deryni trilogy and the appendix to _High_Deryni_
> [ ... which ] says that the Deryni gene is sex-linked and passed
>on the X chromosome, so that a Deryni male and a "human" female
>could never produce a son with Deryni powers (although they could
>have a Deryni daughter).  Since Duncan inherited his Deryni powers
>from his mother, he has the X' chromosome, but there is no way he
>could have passed this on to his "son" Dhugal.
>
>There is another way to inherit Deryni powers, on the Y chromosome,
>which is obviously passed from a father to all of his sons, as in
>the royal Haldane line.
>
>In either case, there is no definite way to prove, one way or
>another, that Duncan is [Dhugal's] father, and in fact, the odds
>are against it.

Very true. Personally, I think that Kurtz changed her mind about how
Deryni powers work. She's changed her mind penty of times before,
and fit things together pretty well. BUT...

a) wouldn't it be interesting if Duncan turned out to carry Haldane
  blood?

b) there was a big hint by KK in the very end of "Quest" that Maryse
  MacArdry, Dhugal's mother, has some connection to Deryni. And
  don't forget the continual side remarks about "the mysterious
  'second sight'" that so many of the border men (down, Paul Zimmer
  fans! :-) ) have. I think KK is working toward tying the
  MacArdrys, at least, into the Deryni who went into hiding after
  the Council of Ramos. Maybe turned-off Deryni powers resurface in
  the children...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 07:45:51 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katheryn Kurtz

>Any news on when the last book in the latest Deryni triology will
>be coming out?  I've always wondered whether Camber is really dead,
>or just waiting for someone to release him from the death-defying
>spell that he was able to place on himself in the first
>series....Ms. Kurtz was a little hazy about Camber's
>death/non-death.

   As Shoshanna said in a paragraph I deleted here the Quest for
Saint Camber is out in hardcover.  Mass market paperback - I dont
know but probably sometime this fall.

   For the future:
   Katheryn was the GOH at Stark Raving Confusion and I got a chance
to ask her about when new books would be forthcomming.

   No books untill late 1988 at the earliest.

   The next Deryni trilogy will be set immeiately after the Legends
of Camber of Culdi.  The titles are:

    1.  The Harrowing of Gwynedd
          This is about the events of 918.  Evaine and Joram try to
          bring Camber back.  One can infer from Kelson's time that
          they didnt make it.

    2.  Javan's Year
          As the title implies.

    3.  The Bastard Prince
          Katheryn said that this isn't what you might think from
          the title ie- the bastard prince isn't who you think it is.
          However this comment was made at ~2:00 in the morning and
          in my fuzziness the next day I forgot to try to get a
          clairification. (I stayed up all night playing Civilization)
          The time of this one is the "Plague" of 948 (I think that's
          the year - the one when practicly everyone on the geniology
          dies.) ( No - Plague is my term - Katheryn just smiled at it
          and didnt say anything one way or another)

    There will be a significant delay between the first book and the
second.  Katheryn has contracted to do an Occult Revolutionary War
novel for $250,000.  Simmilar in nature to Lammas Night.  This time
however Random House has promised to publicize it properly as a
main- stream novel.  Lammas Night will also be rereleased around the
same time.

     After the Bastard Prince she plans to write the Childe Morgan
Trilogy.  Book one will start before Morgan's birth and show some
more about how he and Brion were prepared vis-a-vis the Haldane
Potential.  More will be revealed about the Arilans.

     Katheryn also droped a few hints that I havent mentioned here
including one MEGA-SPOILER.  If you are curious, drop me a note via
E-Mail.

>>And what about Rhys' daughter.  According to the geneology charts
>>she lived to be about 91 years old, and Rhys predicted that she
>>would be the greatest healer around.  Nary a word.  So many
>>potential story-lines!  And Ms. Kurtz' writing just keeps getting
>>better and better!
>
>Yes, I'd like to hear about her. I'd *really* like to know how
>Cinhil's son Rhys fared as king, and *especially* how in hell he
>came to marry Michaela Drummond; not a geneology that would be
>approved by the Regents, there...

    Some of this will no doubt come out in the Bastard Prince.
Speaking of Regents.  Gwynedd will be seeing a lot of them in the
post Cinhil era.

I supose it wont be saying too much to mention that Javan - a
healthy young man if you discount his foot. died rather quickly.  So
did Rhys Michael.  Katheryn hinted that while the regents may or
maynot have directly implemented both demises, they were not
displeased and may have done some looking tthe other way.

    As far as Michaela Drummond goes - my fuzzed brain couldnt
figure how this is supposed to work but Katheryn said that James
Drummond although related to Camber is not necessarily Deryni and
neither is his daughter as far as the Regents know.  Camber's sister
apparently wasn't the only relative not to marry a Deryni spouse.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 07:18:18 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

From: wyzansky@NADC
>I have noticed a major inconsistency between Katherine Kurtz's
>third Deryni trilogy and the appendix to _High_Deryni_, the third
>book of the first trilogy.  In appendix IV, she discusses

Accurate summary of Deryni Genetics Deleted.

>So we are left with two ways that Dhugal could wind up with Deryni
>powers - either his mother (whoever she was) was a Deryni who
>didn't know her heritage (similar to Kelson's mother), or his
>father, either in the McLain line if Duncan was really his father,
>or in the MacArdry line if Duncan was jumping to unwarranted
>conclusions, carried the Y' chromosome and didn't know it.  In
>either case, there is no definite way to prove, one way or another,
>that Duncan is the father, and in fact, the odds are against it.

As far as the Y chromosone goes - although that possibility bothered
me through most of my first reading of Bishop's Heir - Dughal never
went through anything approaching a power activation ritual.  I
don't think that a mind link would satisfy the requirements of an
effective ritual (whatever they are exactly - but Camber or Rhys
made sure to brief Cinhil on them to make sure he knew - so they are
probably not perfectly straitforward)

As for Dhugal's Deryniness which I think has been established by
this point.

1.  Healing Talants seem to follow the male line.  Note Rhys
    Thuryn's children.  The MacRories weren't a healer family.
    [Granted the Thuryns wernt known to be before Rhys but they were
    a minor family and they might just not have known.  Camber &
    Evaine would have known if they personally had that talant]

The following are derivative of some comments droped by Katheryn at
Stark Raving Confusion last January:

2.  No one in the Deryni Universe understands Genetics.
    [Remember the Camberian Council ("those who's business it is to
     know such things") was of the opinion that being a half-breed
     made a difference. The genetics don't support this concept.]

3.  "Where do you think the Second Sight comes from?", answered
    Katheryn Kurtz to the question stated above.

4.  Someone should check to see if Calder of Scheel is Deryni and
    if he is find out who got him past ordination.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 21:33:08 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

** Some spoilers for Quest for St. Camber herein **

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>As far as the Y chromosone goes - although that possibility
>bothered me through most of my first reading of Bishop's Heir -
>Dughal never went through anything aproaching a power activation
>ritual.  I dont think that a mind link would satisfy the
>requirements of an effective ritual (whatever they are exactly -
>but Camber or Rhys made sure to brief Cinhil on them to make sure
>he knew - so they are probably not perfectly straitforward)

But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes
full-blown at the moment of assumption. Regular Deryni powers arise
slowly (if at all) and require formal training. Dhugal has no need
for a power ritual because he does not carry the "Haldane-type"
power. (As far as we know... gosh, this is almost as much fun as
Watchmen speculation! :-) )

Now, this raises two questions:

1) How did training help Conal, if the Haldane power arrives
   full-blown?
2) How did Conal get his powers without a power ritual?

Well, since no one knows why it is that the Haldanes are able to
assume power anyway, this isn't a problem, it just goes under
"insufficient data" and gets speculated about. Camber et al. just
happened to notice that something about Cinhil made him able to have
some Deryni powers "implanted"; I don't think they even knew at the
type that the ability was inherited, let alone sex-linked. (Is it?
The characters think so, but they aren't always right...)

Maybe this ties in with the healing powers of Warin de Grey
(remember him?). It has been occasionally speculated that anyone can
receive "Haldane-type" powers. Also recall Bran Coris.

Conal's "Haldane-type" power presumably requires a power ritual.
Perhaps he and his mentor went through one; we never see how they
met and began training him. Or perhaps Deryni blood in the Haldane
line cropped up and Conall was exercising "Deryni-type" power
instead of "Haldane-type" power as everyone assumed. (I hope my
terminology is clear here.)

>3.  "Where do you think the Second Sight comes from?", answered
>    Katheryn Kurtz to the question stated above.

What question was this? I didn't follow you. I suggested in a recent
posting that the border "second sight" might well come from Deryni
intermixing.

>4.  Someone should check to see if Calder of Scheel is Deryni and
>    if he is find out who got him past ordination.

Unfortunately most of my books are 3000 miles away and can't be
sent.  Could you remind me who Calder of Scheel is?

And I do hope you've read "The Priesting of Arilan." As far as I can
tell, that was a genuine miracle.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 21:44:58 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

>But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes
>full-blown at the moment of assumption.

Right.  Warin is an example of what happens if you have the talent
without the training.  Also, we've seen several cases of men with
the potential being 'easy to train'.  The Haldane ritual can be
explained in one, or both, of two ways, I think.

a) It functions primarily to remove a *suppression* applied
specially to the Haldanes because of the explosive potential of
having too many people in the same family with powers.

b) It invokes divine aid in providing 'training' along with access
to the simple power.

We see that the Haldane situation is special when we are told that
Conal, as heir, is *expected* to be picking up some powers simply by
virtue of being heir.  Surely in no other family do men begin to
gain the power because their legal status has changed.

By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems
fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as
opposed to 'human' powers.  The inheritance patterns of the powers
back up the claim that a single gene may be responsible.  (As they
should, since the patterns and the claim come from the same author.)
But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant telepathy,
teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a serious merasha
allergy, and what have you.  What is more plausible is that these
abilities are potentially present in all humans (thanks to a large
number of genes indeed) and that the one gene is simply that which
unlocks those powers.

(Stand back for a splash: I'm about to dive off the deep end.  I
can't imagine any mechanism for evolving such a sophisticated
complex of *potential* powers.  So it follows that at one time
untrained but usable powers were fairly common.  Three mechanisms
suggest themselves for causing these powers to be lost.  a)
Intermarriage with a larger population that didn't possess them.
Doesn't work: the inheritance patterns are wrong.  b) At some point
in history the powers became countersurvival, and only those whose
abilities were blocked/impaired survived.  There's an interesting
story in that.  Maybe the healers of that day *induced* the
blockage.  c) The loss of power goes back to prehistoric times, to
the extinction of some plant that had once been a fairly common part
of the human diet and which supplied a missing enzyme.  The Deryni
are descended from those who manufactured their own.  This is the
explanation I prefer, although it contains some serious weaknesses
too.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Mar 87 1323-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #88
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Mar 87 1323-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #88
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 01:41:10 GMT
From: msudoc!krj@rutgers.edu (Ken Josenhans {msucl Systems})
Subject: Large SF cons (was: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report)

[[ The following is slightly revised from a letter sent to Evelyn
Leeper before Boskone XXIV. I was not present at that convention, I
have no association with NESFA, but I am very interested in the
sociology of sf fandom.]]

I don't think that fandom has a whole has really thought about the
implications which the changed status of science fiction have had
upon it, and will continue to have upon it until popular tastes
change.  As far as I can tell, fandom was largely conceived from the
1930's through the 1950's, in a period when sf was a minority taste,
and when few book publishers found it profitable to publish the
stuff.  Now, however, sf books clutter the NYT bestseller lists, and
sf and fantasy films now dominate the list of most profitable movies
of all time.

From fandom's early days we have inherited an evangelistic streak
which may not be appropriate any more.

If I were running a major convention, I would be looking to trim
back program items in areas I had little or no interest in.  For me,
first to go would be the film program and the gaming program; the
next things *I'd* be looking at would be the costuming, organized
filksinging and artshow.  Each of these areas started out as a nice
little sideshow to the main convention, but there are now many
people who come to the convention primarily to participate in just
one of these activities.  So my reaction is, let them go and set up
their own convention.  (Fans of those particular activities, don't
bother flaming me; I *don't* run any such convention.)

I'm not sure how politically feasible this is, however.  It seems
like all of the appendages of the large contemporary convention
(worldcon OR regional) have noisy constituencies.  For that matter,
the very aura of non-stop partying has a vocal constituency -- look
how well the Bermuda Triangle worldcon bid did.

Then there is the problem of proliferating conventions.  Here in the
midwest, it would not be much of an exaggeration to say that one can
go to a convention every weekend.  There are at least four
conventions now held annually in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area --
Confusion, Autofusion, Conclave, and Contraption.  Conventions have
become the principal form of fanac in our time, and as long as
working on conventions is a method of producing egoboo, people are
going to set up and run more conventions.  Each of these little
bitty regionals recruits a few more people into convention going,
and once the habit is ingrained I think they all start going to the
larger regionals and the worldcon.

Some possible solutions or outcomes:

1) Some fans are trying to fight the trend by organizing
   conventions with sharply limited interests and programming.
   Autoclave, a Detroit convention oriented towards fanzine fandom,
   was a moderate success from 1976-1981, but its organizers folded
   it after a year when they just broke even because a major
   midwestern regional had shifted to their weekend.  An attempt to
   hold a convention oriented towards sf readers in Toronto in the
   early 1980's came to an end when Torque #4 drew less than ten
   out-of-town attendees, though.

   It seems that the no-programming relaxacons have not been as
   affected by the growth in fandom.  This may be due to a planned
   lack of advertising.

2) SF may cease to be so damned popular.  (Personally, I think this
   would be a good thing.)  I assume this will have to happen
   eventually; forms of popular entertainment have always
   shifted.  Conventions celebrating the Western genre probably
   don't have the sf cons' problems.

3) Large conventions may get torpedoed by changes in the larger
   society, or they may collapse due to their own growth.  With the
   current lawsuit-happy climate, I figure it is only a matter of
   time before a major con and all its committee members get sued
   for an incident involving either alcohol or weapons.  We also
   seem to be seeing an increase in rowdiness and destructive
   vandalism as the social controls of a smaller fandom break down,
   as so many people at the con are anonymous to others there; this
   is going to make cons less attractive to hotels.  The rise of
   AIDS in the general population is likely to end the era of
   convention-as- singles-bar.  And finally, if the worldcon and
   large regionals keep getting bigger, they will burn out the few
   people competent to run them, and the ensuing incompetence will
   drive people (and hotels) away.

Sorry this is so disorganized and rambling.  I have been thinking
about these problems for some time, and I haven't been able to come
up with a coherent set of answers; I can't even come up with a good
rationalization for or definition of fandom, most of the time.  (For
that matter, why should anyone even pay attention to me?  I've
steadfastly refused to work on any convention, except in 1983 when I
babysat a room for a couple of hours...)

Ken Josenhans
P.O. Box 6610
East Lansing, MI 48823
UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj
BITNET:  13020KRJ@MSU

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Mar 87 08:52 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Boskone

The fact is, those media types will be attending no matter what you
do, even if you have no big media events planned.  They seem to like
to get together in herds.  So, given that, wouldn't we rather have
them hole up in a 24-hour Star Trek room than have them wandering
the halls, loose, where we trufen would have to deal with them?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 19:50:39 GMT
From: tower@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Leonard H. Tower Jr.)
Subject: Re: Boskone

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
> The fact is, those media types will be attending no matter what
> you do, even if you have no big media events planned.  They seem
> to like to get together in herds.  So, given that, wouldn't we
> rather have them hole up in a 24-hour Star Trek room than have
> them wandering the halls, loose, where we trufen would have to
> deal with them?

Is the solution to Boskone's problems, to have NESFA actively
encourage other events at the same time, that would siphon off the
undesirable populations?

- An assassins guild bash the same weekend to attract the pop/zap
gun crowd.

- Several concerts, of groups popular with teenagers, in Providence,
Worcester, Portland, ... the Friday and Saturday of Boskone.

- Encourage local High Schools to have dances that weekend (maybe
with a donation of $ n.00 to those that do?).

- Anyone have any other ideas?

Maybe this is the next challenge to NESFA: to not only work within
Fandom to make Boskone the best regional convention there is, but to
affect non-Fandom towards the same end.

Len Tower
Distributed Systems Group, Boston University,
111 Cummington Street, Boston, MA  02215, USA +1 (617) 353-2780
Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA  02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739
UUCP: {}!harvard!bu-cs!tower
INTERNET:   tower@bu-cs.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Mar 87 16:23:01 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Convention discussion

The recent Boskone discussion has inspired some questions which
prompt this message. Three separate quotes need explanation:

From Evelyn Leeper:
>...The suggestions in this area ranged from no seeding of parties
>(to keep the size down)...

What is the "seeding" of parties? (Any interpretation I can think of
is no incentive for me to attend such a party, so I can't figure out
why NOT doing it will decrease their size... :-)

From Rich Kolker:
>...Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons
>because the people who are now running them are either
>professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who
>know cons only through the pro presentations.  When I ran the 10th
>Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the
>reaction "The program book is free, I can get in the con suite, you
>mean this ice cream is free?"  You get the idea...

No, I'm sorry. I don't get the idea at all. Are you saying that
these people were surprised that the things were "free"? (Actually,
didn't they pay an admission or membership fee of some sort to be
there at all?  If so, then these things are included in that fee,
right?) That is, that they were so used to overpriced
"professionally"-run cons that were in reality just an excuse to
gouge attendees for money by charging for everything possible
separately, that they were surprised when they encountered fairness
from a volunteer-run con?

Or are you saying that they were unjustifiably expecting these
things to be free (and that they could get into the con suite,
etc...) when they were not free, and they were expecting more than
they were entitled to as ordinary attendees? That is, they paid a
relatively small entrance fee and thought they should get vast
amounts of goodies in return for paying a pittance?

As you can see, I could interpret this paragraph in at least two
diametrically-opposed ways, and am somewhat at a loss to figure out
just what precisely is meant... I think that written punctuation is
insufficient for the line quoted -- the meaning all depends on the
tone of voice of the speaker. You are probably remembering a
specific tone which makes this recollection an obvious example, but
we need more clues.

From Shoshanna Green:
>...If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. ...

What on earth (or off it...) are "serfen"? (I keep thinking of
servants, serfs, and servers... Does this maybe relate to
"serials"?)

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 17:35:46 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Convention discussion

>From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>>From Shoshanna Green:
>>...If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. ...
>What on earth (or off it...) are "serfen"? (I keep thinking of
>servants, serfs, and servers... Does this maybe relate to
>"serials"?)

This is a fine example of the spread of SF convention attendance
well beyond fannish circles.  Are you familiar with the term
"sercon"?  It's old fanspeak, derived from "serious and
constructive", and refers to people who like to go to serious
(especially literary) programming at conventions (among other
things).

Given "sercon", I immediately assume "serfen" to be a contraction of
"sercon fen" (fen is the plural of fan).  The use of "sercon" itself
in the original quote is a contraction of "sercon convention" into
"sercon con" into "sercon".

Sercon fen would be essentially the opposite of media fen, so I
don't think it relates to serials.  (The other opposite of sercon
fen is convention or party fen.)

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 17:02:41 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Convention discussion

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>The recent Boskone discussion has inspired some questions which
>prompt this message. Three separate quotes need explanation:

As long as I'm here, I'll explain what I understand Evelyn and Rich
to be saying as well, since I know the terminology, but remember
that only they are the final arbiters.

>From Evelyn Leeper:
>>...The suggestions in this
>>area ranged from no seeding of parties (to keep the size down)...
>
>What is the "seeding" of parties?

"Seeding" a party means giving it some supplies to get started with
(think of "seed money"). Boskone traditionally has given any open
parties which want it a couple cases of soda, munchies, etc., to
enable more people to hold parties without such a financial burden.

From Rich Kolker:
>>...Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons
>>because the people who are now running them are either
>>professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who
>>know cons only through the pro presentations.  When I ran the 10th
>>Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the
>>reaction "The program book is free, I can get in the con suite,
>>you mean this ice cream is free?"  You get the idea...
>
>No, I'm sorry. I don't get the idea at all.

I understand Rick to be saying that these attendees were so used to
professionally run for-profit cons that they were, as you say,
"surprised when they encountered fairness from a volunteer-run con."

Rick seems to be implying that having such people at a con makes it
less fun for those of us accustomed to "trufannish" conventions.
(More on fannish jargon below; sorry.) I'm not sure why he thinks
that; perhaps you could explain this a bit more, Rick?

From Shoshanna Green:
>>...If serfen want a sercon, they can put one on, and do. ...
>What on earth (or off it...) are "serfen"? (I keep thinking of
>servants, serfs, and servers... Does this maybe relate to
>"serials"?)

Occasionally I lapse into fannish jargon, which I enjoy. "Serfen"
comes from "fen", the plural of "fan", combined with "serious".
Serfen are the serious readers (and producers), who probably want
discussions of the craft of writing, the sociological background of
a book, the implications of a technology, and the like at a con, and
would gladly skip the pun competition and the panel on Zero-G Sex.

I used the word "trufannish" above, after several minutes of trying
to find another way to say what I'm trying to say in a few words. It
should be clear that it comes from "true fan". By "trufannish"
conventions I mean cons put on by fans, for fans, with an
understanding of what sf (or whatever the particular theme of the
con) is and why we enjoy it. I'm not eliminating trek cons here,
just the for-profit ones designed to separate fen from cash.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 20:24:15 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: Convention discussion

From Rich Kolker:
>>...Unfortunately, I have stopped attending Trek and media cons
>>because the people who are now running them are either
>>professionals not interested in fannish traditions, or people who
>>know cons only through the pro presentations.  When I ran the 10th
>>Anniversary August Party in 1985, more than one attendee had the
>>reaction "The program book is free, I can get in the con suite,
>>you mean this ice cream is free?"  You get the idea...
>
>No, I'm sorry. I don't get the idea at all. Are you saying that
>these people were surprised that the things were "free"? (Actually,
>didn't they pay an admission or membership fee of some sort to be
>there at all?  If so, then these things are included in that fee,
>right?) That is, that they were so used to overpriced
>"professionally"-run cons that were in reality just an excuse to
>gouge attendees for money by charging for everything possible
>separately, that they were surprised when they encountered fairness
>from a volunteer-run con?

That's it!  I should write more clearly, but I get sloppy with my
grammar (and spelling) cramming my net reading into the little time
I have for it.  The fact is, pro run cons charge for everything (
even to be IN the costume call!), and there are few if any parties,
certainly not any run by the con itself.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #89
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #89
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:

           Books - McCollum & Offut & Schmitz (3 msgs) &
                   L. Neil Smith & Stewart & Watt-Evans &
                   Red Sonja (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 13:18:39 PST (Thursday)
Subject: re:McCollum PROCYON'S PROMISE question (spoiler)
From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

Read LIFE PROBE and PROCYONS PROMISE ! Highly recommended!

1. The artifical intelligence included in the Procyon expedition was
a pseudo-human interpreter created by the original PROBE.  It
certainly didn't have access to any information that would be
dangerous to the original builders.  So it didn't know what they
looked like.  It barely survived the destruction of PROBE.  Add to
that the time involved in the initial flight, and it is perfectly
reasonable that it wouldn't be able to identify the Star Travelers
as its' parents' builders. Technical manuals, especially highly
complex ones, would have no occasion to depict any person, as they
are works of reference.  Operators manuals would be different, but
apparently that isn't what was found.

2.  As I recall, as soon as the vast number of returned intersteller
sublight probes were identified, the secret was pretty much up.  I
was surprised that there was a record of a landfall on Procyon.

I don't look for a direct sequel to this book.  "Antares Dawn"
apparently is the new universe McCollum is working on (if not yet
another).  I hope he keeps writting.

Read "Lungfish" in David Brins' new anthology "The River of Time".

Clark Hallgren

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 08:00:18 PST
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Thieve's world (Shadowspawn)

I corresponded with Andrew Offutt last year some time and he told me
that he had finished his Shadowspawn novel and was awaiting it's
publication in August of 1987.  He was amazed at the lead time the
publisher demanded.

It was interesting that his letter to me was printed on the back of
a couple of pages from the draft of his story.  It looked a lot like
Macintosh printing too.

Jon
pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 22:07:00 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Schmitz

James Schmitz wasn't one of the most prolific authors, but he has a
number of books you can still find if you look hard enough.  In most
cases, I have to admit I read these books enough years ago that I
can't remember too much about them, other than whether I liked them
or not.  I suppose that means they are not deathless classics (from
which you remember every scene), but I never read anything of
Schmitz's that I didn't enjoy.

_Agent of Vega_         - short story collection about a secret agent
                          of the futre

_The Lion Game_         - A Telzy Amberdon novel.  If you can find
                          the original DAW edition, the Freas cover
                          alone is worth the price (for red-blooded
                          Terran males anyway).  Very good.

_The Witches of Karres_ and
"The Witches of Karres" - The genesis for TWOK was a novellete,
                          still available, I think in one of the
                          _Science Fiction Hall of Fame_ volumes.
                          Very good.  The novel is available as an
                          old Ace Special and more recently with
                          more pages but apparently the same text.
                          Excellent.

_The Demon Breed_       - One woman against an alien invasion.
                          Good.

_A Tale of Two Clocks_  - A Trigger Argee book.  Trigger encounters
                          the Old Galactics.  Very good.  (I think
                          this one has been issued under another
                          title also).

_The Universe Against Her_ - Telzy Amberdon.  Good.

_A Pride of Monsters_   - Short story collection. Several set in the
                          Hub universe.  One with Trigger Argee.
                          Good.

_The Telzy Toy_         - Stories of Telzy Amberdon. Good.

Many of Schmitz's stories (including the ones about the young
telepath Telzy Amberdon and Trigger Argee) were set in an appealing
universe where humankind is organized into the Federation of the
Hub, and a distant Overgovernment lets everything freewheel along so
that the resultant competition will make humanity less easy prey.
One of the mysteries of the Hub universe is the fate of the Old
Galactics, the slow (a different clock) but powerful precursors of
Man on the galactic scene.  Trigger definitely has run-ins with
them, and if memory serves, so does Telzy.  Schmitz was known for
his strong female characters (though lately some have called him
chauvanistic).

Schmitz also has an upbeat story in one of Kingsley Amis's
_Spectrum_ anthologies (can't remember the title) and several
uncollected works from the SF magazines of the mid 60's.

Summary:  Try him.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 00:55:47 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.s1.gov (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Schmitz

From: ted@braggvax.arpa
>James Schmitz wasn't one of the most prolific authors, but he has a
>number of books you can still find if you look hard enough.

One book not mentioned by Ted is, if I recall correctly, "The
Eternal Frontier".  I think this was the last book Schmitz wrote.  I
have always been very fond of his works, especially "Witches of
Karres" and "Demon Breed".  As a side note, when I first saw "Star
Wars", the universe it most reminded me of was Schmitz's -- not
particularly because of the plot, but because of the "furniture".
It's very easy to imagine Telzey Amberdon climbing into a brand new
shiny landspeeder (while the dealer ships her old one off to some
backwater planet like Tattooine), or Nile Etland's UW (hand weapon
in "Demon Breed") looking and acting a lot like Han Solo's blaster
-- except that Nile Etland was a _much_ better shot :-) :-).

Jordin Kare
jtk@mordor.UUCP
jtk@mordor.s1.gov

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 04:09:00 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Schmitz

ted@braggvax.arpa writes:
>Many of Schmitz's stories (including the ones about the young
>telepath Telzy Amberdon and Trigger Argee) were set in an appealing
>universe where humankind is organized into the Federation of the
>Hub, and a distant Overgovernment lets everything freewheel along
>so that the resultant competition will make humanity less easy
>prey.  One of the mysteries of the Hub universe is the fate of the
>Old Galactics, the slow (a different clock) but powerful precursors
>of Man on the galactic scene.  Trigger definately has run ins with
>them, and if memory serves, so does Telzy.  Schmitz was known for
>his strong female characters (though lately some have called him
>chauvanistic).

Telzey runs into both the Old Galactics and Trigger Argee in the
story "Compulsion" (from THE TELZEY TOY).

I'm a'gonna get upset if I can't find THE LION GAME.

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 21:37:48 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Crystal Empire

                The Crystal Empire, by L Neil Smith

                      **** mild spoilers ****

So, the Islamic Caliph in Rome decides to send his daughter Ayesha
to marry the King of the mysterious Crystal Empire on the west coast
of the New World, in the hope of getting an ally against the Mughal
hoards...

... and we are in the midst of another alternative
history novel.  The premise is that a very virulent form of the
Black Death removed Christian Europe from the world stage by
depopulation.  The rest follows.

I found this a readable piece of speculation; fairly lightweight
mostly.  A big plus point is that the plot and narrative move along
quite well, and there are enough historical jokes to keep one
amused.

Two minus points (as ever, in my opinion).  First, the novel (at 450
pages) is too short.  That's because it tries to describe four quite
different societies, and build up several major characters, all the
while keeping the action going.  At times, things become very terse.
Secondly, the ending is terrible - like something out of the 40's
when our handful of intrepid heroes defeat the bad guys in a
cataclysm of stupifying unlikelihood.

Wait for the paperback.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 10:05:19 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@cc-washington.bbn.com>
Subject: _Earth Abides_ (Stewart)

NOTE:  No spoilers here!

    I just saw the recent recommendation for "EARTH ABIDES" by
George Stewart, and decided to add my kudos.

    As an indication of how much I appreciate this book: I presently
have maybe 50 or 60 in my "just received, to be read" stack.  In
spite of this, I've picked up "Earth Abides" twice in the last year
or so, for a re-read.  Like the person who previously mentioned this
title I only discovered it within the last two years, so now I've
read it three times.

    It's not cover-to-cover action, doesn't have "magic" or
"super-technology", it's just a good read.

    If you can find a copy, READ IT! (To coin a phrase)...

Ron S. (rsingle@cct.bbn.com)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 19:29:25 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: _With a Single Spell_ by Lawrence Watt-Evans

This book is the story of an appretice wizard, who's master dies
before instructing him in more than the rudiments of his profession.
In fact, he has learned a single spell.  Most of the book deals with
his search for a way to make a living at his profession despite his
sketchy education, and towards the end, how he deals with a windfall
legacy with some catches.  A light read with nothing profound
happening.  It compares well with the earlier book with the same
setting, _The Misenchanted Sword_.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 87 10:10:39 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!?)

All this talk about the secret of Lythande and the fact that
discovery of her womanhood enables one to have power over her
reminds me of Red Sonja of comicdom who was given her powers
mystically on one condition--that in no way could she offer herself
in love to man,or she would have to face the consequences.Mind
you,she didn't have to hide her womanhood.It was there for all to
see and there was lots of it.

jml

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 13:47:02 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: RE: RED SONJA

jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean) writes:
> All this talk about the secret of Lythande and the fact that
> discovery of her womanhood enables one to have power over her
> reminds me of Red Sonja of comicdom who was given her powers
> mystically on one condition--that in no way could she offer
> herself in love to man,or she would have to face the consequences.

   That is not true. The character Red Sonja who appeared in the
Conan comic and later 3 series of her own could offer herself to a
man. There was a catch however. The man first had to defeat her in
armed combat. Around the age of fifteen she had been raped several
times by a group of bandits who killed her family. She had a vision
of a goddess giving her a supernaturally high skill in swords so
that she could avenge herself and her family. The goddess said that
if she gave herself to a man who had not defeated her in armed
combat, she would lose her skills. Conan tried once or twice (it's
been a long time since I read those) but never beat her.
   In her last series I think the idea arose that the goddess was a
figment of Sonja's imagination and that the sword skills were her
own. Her father had been an excellent swordsman in his time before
he was injured and she used to watch him train her brothers.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 16:51:00 GMT
From: mazina@hpfcdq.HP.COM (Dan Mazina)
Subject: Re: RE: RED SONJA

   Freeze it Right There:

   Being a rather large fan of Robert E. Howard I must say that NO
WHERE in the actual Conan books (the original ones, not the hack
writer versions) does this incredible story ever appear. Conan meets
Red Sonja and does follow her out of town in the beginning of 'Red
Nails' but this story of being raped and having to be defeated in
combat is completely unsupported.  Lets not slander REH's writing
with some comic book writer's silly imagination.

Daniel Mazina

PS: For that matter, I believe 'Red Nails' is the only story Red
Sonja even appears in. Now Belit was another matter altogether.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 17:46:56 GMT
From: m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Re: RE: RED SONJA

mazina@hpfcdq.HP.COM (Dan Mazina) writes:
>    Freeze it Right There:
>    Being a rather large fan of Robert E. Howard I must say that NO
>WHERE in the actual Conan books (the original ones, not the hack
>writer versions) does this incredible story ever appear. Conan
>meets Red Sonja and does follow her out of town in the beginning of
>'Red Nails' but this story of being raped and having to be defeated
>in combat is completely unsupported.  Lets not slander REH's
>writing with some comic book writer's silly imagination.
>    PS: For that matter, I believe 'Red Nails' is the only story
>Red Sonja even appears in. Now Belit was another matter altogether.

   It seems like you're only an REH Conan fan!  Red Sonja NEVER
appears in any story with Conan written by Robert E. Howard.  "Red
Nails" was with Valeria.  Red Sonja stories by REH take place in the
16th century and she is some type of mecenary and/or pirate (I've
never read any; I've just seen it mentioned in a history of the
development of Red Sonja).  Red Sonja of Conan fame was integrated
into his universe by later "hacks" and this is the agreed origin by
those who write Conan and Red Sonja stories.

Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
{cbosgd, gatech, ihnp4, linus, mirror, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b
Raytheon Co
Submarine Signal Div.
1847 West Main Rd, Portsmouth, RI 02871

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 15:15:55 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: RED SONJA

   As I recall, in REH there was no character known as Red Sonja.
This was a creation by Roy Thomas, WHO IS NOT SOME COMIC BOOK WRITER
WITH A SILLY IMAGINATION, based on a character known as Red Sonya,
also by REH. Red Sonya was in stories that took place about the 16th
Century in Russia, well past Conan's time. The female character from
the `Red Nails' story was eliminated and Red Sonja was written in
when Thomas adapted it for the comic book. I don't know whether the
rape scene happened to Red Sonya, because I have never read any of
her stories as yet.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 87 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #90
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 87 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #90
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:

              Television - Japanimation & Blake's 7 &
                           Buck Rogers (2 msgs) & 
                           Space: 1999 (4 msgs) &
                           Doctor Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Feb 87 11:12:08-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: final Urusei Yatsura comic story

     Recently, "Shonen Weekly Magazine" published the final "Urusei
Yatsura" comic stories.  Takahashi Rumiko (the author) is now going
to take a long vacation.  A Japanese friend sent me the last two
stories; I received them yesterday.  I believe these last two
stories will be in "Urusei Yatsura Shonen Sunday Comics #34", since
#33 is the most recently published.

     The second stage of production of the movie "Urusei Yatsura 5"
should have been completed in January.  I have not found out any
details of the story, though; nor do I know if this will be the last
movie or if it will continue on with 1 movie/year indefinitely (the
way "Star Trek" does).

     Also, Kitty Animation Circle announced that they are accepting
applications for the wait-list to order the complete TV series in
laser disc format, since there may be some cancellations.  It costs
330,000 yen (about $2200) for the set of 50 discs.  I have a
confirmed order and am not cancelling, but maybe other people will.
Write KAC at: 1-8-5 Yoyogi, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 151 JAPAN for more
details.

     The final comic story is a typical Japanese-style ending;
Japanese love this.  There are some fascinating subplots going on,
including an alien (Rupu) who says in one scene he is Lum's fiancee,
but ends up proposing to Karura (another new alien); obviously I'll
have to wait until I get the earlier stories to figure out who the
hell Rupu and Karura are.  The other one is a huge number of giant
mushrooms (57-62 meters tall) that are growing on earth and can only
be destroyed by space pigs that eat giant mushrooms.  The space pigs
seem to be under Rupu's control (there's obviously some background
in the earlier stories).

     The story comes around full circle; Lum and Ataru are again
playing the "devil game" of tag, only this time Ataru will not be
able to catch Lum unless he will say he loves her (something he has
NEVER done!).  Apparently, if Ataru wins the devil game the Rupu
will send the pigs.  Ataru, being his usual stubborn self, won't do
this, whether to save the earth or his relationship with Lum.

     Lum has resolved that if Ataru loses the devil game (and can
only lose if he refuses to say he loves her) then Lum will erase all
the memories on Earth about the Urusei people.  Benten objects -- "I
like the Earth and its people!  If you erase all the memories of me
then I won't be your friend any more!!" -- but the memory erasing
machine is started (by accident by Benten!).

     It is on a timer that will go off if Ataru loses the devil
game.  Attempts by Mendo, Benten, etc. to destroy the machine fail.
Finally, as the game is almost over, and Lum and Ataru are
exchanging insults -- "Baka!" ("fool") -- Ataru refuses to say that
he loves Lum and points out that under such conditions even if he
said it Lum would have no way of knowing if it was sincere.  Lum
doesn't care; she wants to hear the words anyway.

     Ataru smugly adds that he won't forget Lum in spite of the
memory erasing machine.  He trips and we found out why; he's holding
a couple of Lum's old horns (apparently Urusei people shed them
periodically).  When Lum realizes that Ataru has been hoarding her
horns, she melts.  She goes to him; they embrace -- "Darling!"
"Silly Lum!" ("Ramu no baka").  He grabs her horns (on her head) and
wins the "devil game" for a second time.  The machine stops and
everybody is relieved.

     Afterwards, Sakura and Benten comment that Ataru has not, in
fact, said that he loves Lum.  Lum asks him WHEN he will.  Ataru
replies -- "with my dying breath."  In the last frame, the narrator
(Takahashi Rumoko) says "You will have lover's quarrels for the rest
of your lives!!" and as Lum and Ataru head away, Lum says -- "We
will!!"

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 12:54:41 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

  Does anybody know why the Beeb won't re-run it in Britain? It's
not as if they didn't make it in the first place or anything? I
missed so many episodes both when it first ran and on the first and
only repeat that, at least for the later episodes it would be like
watching it from scratch.

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Mar 87 18:12:15 est
From: amsler@flash.bellcore.com (Robert Amsler)
Subject: Buck Rogers Episode Guide

Has anyone produced a Buck Rogers (TV Series) episode guide?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 18:34:36 GMT
From: buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz)
Subject: Re: Buck Rogers Episode Guide

From: amsler@flash.bellcore.com (Robert Amsler)
> Has anyone produced a Buck Rogers (TV Series) episode guide?

If you mean in book form, yes.  If you mean on the computer, not
that I've heard of.  I have put several guides on the net [Lost In
Space, Battlestar Galactica (with a Galactica:1980 appendix), and
Space:1999 (actually still in the works)].  Buck Rogers was slated
to be worked on in the near future (before or after Batman;it
depends on my mood.)

As for in print, the Buck Rogers Episode Guide has appeared in an
issue of Starlog (I can get the exact # if you want), and was
reprinted in their book TV Episode Guides Vol. 2, available at
specialty shops and Book Stores, where supplies still exist.  It was
printed several years back, thus may be hard to track down, but not
impossible.  B. Daltons or Walden Books are good bets.

Hope that helps...

Elliott Buchholz
ARPA: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu
      buc@blue.rutgers.edu
UUCP: ...!{harvard|seismo|pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!buchholz
PONY EXPRESS: RPO 4014
              CN 5063
              New Brunswick, NJ 08903
PHONE: (201)-247-6544

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87  09:56:32 EST
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: V as in Victor

During the past year I have noticed many other people have been
writing about Doctor Who, Hitchhiker's Guide, Blake's 7, and
Tripods. But very little has been said about another great British
TV serial, SPACE: 1999. It was made in the late 1970's by the BBC
for the American market. I feel that the plots, the special effects,
and the acting are outstanding. All right, so it's another one of
those "endless-quest" shows. For those of you who don't know the
basic plot in the late 20th century mankind main energy source is
nuclear fission. A vast waste dump has been made on the dark side of
the moon, monitored by Moonbase Alpha on the other side. In the year
1999 men working near the waste dump begin going mad and dying. Yet
no radiation is detected. Too late is is discovered that all the
various elements have been changing over the years and reacting with
the lunite in the moon to cause a vast, sudden increase in magnetic
radiation. The waste dump explodes in a huge nuclear fusion blast
and the moon is ripped out of Earth's orbit and sent on its journey
through the stars with 311 humans "on board."  Their incredible
struggle for survival against unknown forces in outer space is
coupled with periodic passings-by of life-bearing planets. Some
Alphans cope well with the strain, others cannot take it and almost
cause destruction of the base. The series ended after its second
season with the Alphans still not having found a home. Presumably
they are still searching for one.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 21:59:50 GMT
From: ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall)
Subject: Re: Space 1999 (was: V as in Victor)

Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes:
> But very little has been said about another great British TV
> serial, SPACE: 1999...  the moon is ripped out of Earth's orbit
> and sent on its journey through the stars with 311 humans "on
> board."

Of course, no one ever explained how the moon, traveling at much
less than C encountered quite a number of inhabited planets in 2
years when the nearest star is about 4 light-years from Sol. Oh
Well.

Ted Marshall
Britton Lee, Inc.
p-mail: 14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030
voice:  (408)378-7000
uucp:   ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted
ARPA:   mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 18:38:01 GMT
From: jtn@potomac.dc.ads.com (John T. Nelson)
Subject: Space 1999...

From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> But very little has been said about another great British TV
> serial, SPACE: 1999. It was made in the late 1970's by the BBC for
> the American market. I feel that the plots, the special effects,
> and the acting are outstanding.

I think no one has mentioned it because we're all trying to forget
it ;-)

Typical Space 1999 plot:

Green glowing glob approaches Moonbase Alpha.  Scientist proclaims
"it's on a direct collision course!" Barbara Bane (not her real
name) gets worried and intones woodenly "John, what are we going to
do?"  Commander Konig mumbles, "it hasn't tried to signal us so IT
MUST be hostile" whereupon he dispatches a fleet of Eagle spacecraft
to destroy the space menace.  Of course the glowing glob reduces all
Eagles to glittery sparklers.

Green glowing space menace eventually mutilates several Alphans (the
British love their gore), steals a carton of ice cream and heads on
its way.  This leaves Commander Konig and professor what's-his-name
to ponder infinite philosophies about other life forms, not that
we've learned anything for the hour we've just spent.

Ho hum.

Actually the special effects WERE outstanding for their time.
Excellent model work.  Atrocious story-lines.  Unbelievably wooden
acting.

Someone else on the net had asked "has anyone explained how the moon
was able to travel to other regions of the galaxy that were
light-years distant?"  In fact, they tried to explain this in Space
1999's second season.  Apparently there are a number of black-holes
scattered above the ecliptic of the galaxy enabling one to enter in
one region of space and......

John T. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 17:13:04 GMT
From: lucifer!rob@rutgers.edu ( 237)
Subject: Space 1999: not the BBC's

cyberma(n?) writes regarding the series 'Space 1999' which he states
to be a BBC series for the American market.  In fact this was
another product of Gerry Anderson's Century 21 Productions company
and had no connection with the BBC being initially shown on
independent television over here.  There was also, I am told, a film
which acted as a pilot for the television series and explains how
the moon reaches other solar systems before the inhabitants of Alpha
die of old age!  All in all the whole series looks like 'UFO in
space'; even to the extent of using the same control consoles in the
control room (the spacecraft look familiar too).  As said before
they're still looking - perhaps another series will meet them ? :-)

P.S.  While we're on the subject of Gerry Anderson and following
some previous postings this, I believe, is the complete list of his
series' as seen on British television.

   Terrahawks               Thunderbirds
   Space 1999               Stingray
   UFO                      Fireball XL5
   Joe 90                   Supercar
   Captain Scarlet          Four Feather Falls

Any comments ?

Rob Clive
Lucas Micos Ltd., Cirencester, UK.
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!lucifer!rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Mar 87  17:15:22 EST
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: all must see this

I just purchased Doctor Who Monthly #122 MAR 1987 and there is a
letter in it I think everyone should read. For those of you who
don't/can't get DWM here it is:

NO TO WOMAN

 ...In a succession of articles in my daily, I first heard of Colin
Baker's resignation from the series after only being given four
episodes to work on.  Then we had the usual nonsense about a female
Doctor. Now, today, I hear that once again Michael Grade is calling
the show stale and considering bringing in the guillotine again. How
can the BBC be so naive as to think that it is Colin Baker's fault
that the series is losing its customers.
  There are many factors contributing to this: one-kids prefer the
senseless violence of the A-Team, two-television audiences are
falling anyway on a Saturday, three-and most importantly, the Beeb
don't rate the show high enough to give it a higher budget, which in
turn would get better sets, costumes, OBs, and again in turn freer
scripts and more intricate direction.  Lastly, the BBC still rate
the programme as a five-year-old's answer to Star Wars. In a
newspaper interview, Michael Grade, when asked about Selina Scott as
the Doctor, said that it would be a great idea. She isn't even an
actress.
  Let me kill the idea of a woman Doctor once and for all.
Presumably the Doctor was born male. What would the Master be called
if he was female - the Mistress? Doesn't have the same ring to it,
does it? Presumably this would also mean that Romana would be able
to become a seven-foot hunk. And Time Ladies with names like Thalia?
More seriously, it would break the LAw of Time. The Time Lord/Lady
in question would be able to mate with itself, producing...  well,
think about it.
  I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in this letter, but someone has
to do it.  The magazine is magnificent as usual.

   Rob Hawkins,
   Bitterne Park,
   Southampton.

Bravo! I agree with almost every point spoken in this letter, and
spoken so well. As Colin Baker said to the audience at a convention
in Dorchester of Sept 1986 when asked about Blake's 7 & Doctor Who:
"The BBC seems to make a habit of cancelling extremely profitable
and popular TV science fiction shows."

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 04:11:50 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: all must see this

>I just purchased Doctor Who Monthly #122 MAR 1987 and there is a
>letter in it I think everyone should read. For those of you who
>don't/can't get DWM here it is:
>
>NO TO WOMAN
> ...
>  Let me kill the idea of a woman Doctor once and for all.
>Presumably the Doctor was born male. What would the Master be
>called if he was female - the Mistress? Doesn't have the same ring
>to it, does it? Presumably this would also mean that Romana would
>be able to become a seven-foot hunk.

Er--remember Romana's regeneration scene; one of the forms she
decided not to use _was_ around 7 feet tall...

>And Time Ladies with names like Thalia?

How do you (actually the writer of this letter, but you say you
agree with almost everything in it) know Thalia is not a name usable
by both genders for Time Lords?  Or that Time Lords don't have the
option of changing their names?

>More seriously, it would break the LAw of Time. The Time Lord/Lady
>in question would be able to mate with itself, producing...  well,
>think about it.

Have you read "All You Zombies" by Robert A. Heinlein?  (short
story) Or "Downtiming the Night Side" by Jack Chalker?  (novel)

The _real_ reason why a female Doctor is unlikely is the same as the
reason why Gallifrey is not filled with alien religions; why the
Doctor eats the same types of food as 20th century Western
Earthlings; etc... -- the Doctor is, essentially, a 20th century
Western-culture Earthling, with only a few details changed.  The
majority of 20th century Earthlings don't change sex, and therefore
neither will the Doctor.  (Star Trek suffer[s][ed] from this problem
a great deal too.)

This is also why the Androgums in the Two Doctors were so
ridiculous; since they are caricatures of 20th century Earthlings
(and physically resemble them too) their desire to eat 20th century
(or other) Earthlings doesn't make much sense.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 87 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #91
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 87 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #91
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:

                    Books - McCaffrey (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 23:35:01 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>Yes, it is, isn't it? Male children of dragonriders (the only
>people she deals with) are named with a combination of their
>parents' names, father's first, chosen in such a way that when they
>become dragonriders the first vowel can be removed without making
>the name unpronounceable. Thus F'lar and Lessa's son was named
>Felessan. When he gets a dragon, he will be F'lessan. Thus the
>initial "F" is sort of a patronymic.

Actually, if I remember a passage in the second book (memory
failure), F'lar mentions a child born to Kylara and remarks that he
is glad that she went against the normal naming tradition, otherwise
the child might be mistaken for his own.

This would seem to imply that the first letter of the child's first
name is that of the father's.  The remaining part of the name is the
second syllable of the mother's name.  (Thus, Kylara's child would
have been named something like T'lar (STIII anybody? :-) and might
have been mistaken for F'lar's.  This implies that another naming
tradition is to take the second half of the father's name for the
child's and to change the initial letter(s).

BTW, this means that F'lessan's name is also anti-traditional.

>Female children are apparently just named anything.

Insufficient data.  No woman dragonrider gets the honorific
contraction.  Also, we do not know many (if at all) parents of the
women in the series (except for Menolly).

>Of course, this raises a real problem. What do a couple call their
>second son? There aren't very many ways to combine names as simple
>as most Pernese names are...

Again, insufficient data.  Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's
mother's name was?

Jeff Okamoto
hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 09:04:23 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60sB)
Subject: Re: Pern anomalies (minor spoilers)

okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>Shoshana Green writes:
>>Yes, it is, isn't it? Male children of dragonriders (the only
>>people she deals with) are named with a combination of their
>>parents' names, father's first, chosen in such a way that when
>>they become dragonriders the first vowel can be removed without
>>making the name unpronounceable. Thus F'lar and Lessa's son was
>>named Felessan. When he gets a dragon, he will be F'lessan. Thus
>>the initial "F" is sort of a patronymic.
>
>Actually, if I remember a passage in the second book (memory
>failure), F'lar mentions a child born to Kylara and remarks that he
>is glad that she went against the normal naming tradition,
>otherwise the child might be mistaken for his own.
>
>This would seem to imply that the first letter of the child's first
>name is that of the father's.  The remaining part of the name is
>the second syllable of the mother's name.  (Thus, Kylara's child
>would have been named something like T'lar (STIII anybody? :-) and
>might have been mistaken for F'lar's.  This implies that another
>naming tradition is to take the second half of the father's name
>for the child's and to change the initial letter(s).

Kylara's son may have been F'lar's son.  However, he was glad that
she didn't give him a name which may have indicated his patrimony to
remove a reason for Lessa being more jealous than she already was.

The naming of Kylara's son with the honorific (apostrophe) was one
of several discrepancies which flaw (in a very small way) an
otherwise excellent series.  (I have said before that I don't
generally like series.  This is an exception.)  Another flaw is that
Lytol's dragon was originally green, but was `promoted' to brown in
later books.  Most of these discrepancies seem to be between the
original novellas and the later books.

In a prior posting, I mentioned a couple of the physical
impossibilities that are in the books.  For some reason, they don't
bother me nearly as much as the above relatively minor
discrepancies.  I guess I'm just used to overlooking physical
impossibilities in sf.

>Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was?

F'nor's mother is Manora, the headwoman of Benden Weyr.  F'lar's
mother is unknown (he and F'nor were half brothers).

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 03:05:53 GMT
From: maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Carl Greenberg (guest))
Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>Actually, if I remember a passage in the second book (memory
>failure), F'lar mentions a child born to Kylara

Thought it was the first book, Dragonflight...

>Again, insufficient data.  Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's
>mother's name was?

F'lar and F'nor share the same father, not the same mother.  Their
father was F'lon and F'nor's mother was Manora, headwoman of the
Lower Caverns.

Carl Greenberg
ARPA:  maddox@ernie.berkeley.edu
UUCP: ...ucbvax!ucbernie!maddox

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 04:19:54 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

F'lar and F'nor are half brothers; they had different mothers. I
always saw this as McCaffrey dodging this very question.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 06:55:48 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

I suspect that such names are parsed for pronuncability.  I remember
Lessa trying to figure out how to contract Jaxom and failing.  F'sa
doesnt strike me as pronounceable, so the tradition is mostly a
guideline.

>>Female children are apparently just named anything.
>Insufficient data.  No woman dragonrider gets the honorific
>contraction.

Non-Weyr bred children of either sex seemed to be named just
anything too.  Jaxom is an example again.

>Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was?

I dont remember any mention of who F'lar's mother was.  F'nor was
his half-brother and the son of MaNORa, the headwoman of the lower
caverns at Benden Weyr.

Their father was F'lon.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 18:02:54 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>Do we ever know what F'lar and F'nor's mother's name was?

   As I remember books 1 & 2, F'lar and F'nor had the same father,
F'lon.  However, I distinctly remember something about F'nor being
F'lar's HALF-brother.  Furthermore, Book 2 states that Manora was
F'nor's mother providing another possible example of how Perneese
names are generated.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 20:53:46 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pern anomalies (minor spoilers)

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>The naming of Kylara's son with the honorific (apostrophe) was one
>of several discrepancies which flaw (in a very small way) an
>otherwise excellent series.  (I have said before that I don't
>generally like series.  This is an exception.)  Another flaw is
>that Lytol's dragon was originally green, but was `promoted' to
>brown in later books.  Most of these discrepancies seem to be
>between the original novellas and the later books.

And then there are Lessa's psychic powers, which figure so largely
in "Weyr Seacrh"...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 87 14:15 CDT
From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Anne McCaffrey

>I would like to hear if anyone else thought that _Moreta_ was
>the best Pern book or not.

I think I agree with that.  The ending certainly made it one of the
most memorable.  _Moreta_ differed from the other books in the Pern
cycle - I'm not quite sure how to characterize the differences.  It
was certainly shorter, and, I think, more focused.  The other books
have several "main" characters - _Moreta_ only has one.  You get
very involved with her, which makes the ending more intense.  I also
really enjoyed _Nerilka_ - you see the events in _Moreta_ from a
different viewpoint.

I was actually very surprised by the Pern books.  I first tried to
read them many years ago, and just couldn't stand them.  I'm not
sure exactly why.  However, just this past summer, while sick in
bed, the only books I had access to were the Pern books (my library
was packed up for moving - I had to borrow).  I really, really
enjoyed them this time around, and highly recommend them.  (Are you
reading this, Eugene?  I'd like to hear if you like them.)

Eleanor

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 21:43:00 GMT
From: friedman@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy

On the matter of whether Anne McCaffrey's Pern series (two
trilogies; please don't overlook the Harper Hall trilogy) are SF or
Fantasy:

The dragons' abilities are described in Pernese terms using words
you might associate with fantasy literature.  But put the Pern
stories into the context of McCaffrey's other works.  She has done
other excellent stories based on psionic powers.  Just convert "go
between" to "teleport", and you have something compatible with
another series of McCaffrey stories.  Psionic stories are usually
categorized as SF, not as fantasy.

She also goes out of her way to make other things fit an SF frame of
reference: e.g., the lost science of the "ancients" (the space
faring humans who settled Pern); the method of producing flame from
dragons.

The arguments that McCaffrey's dragons shouldn't be able to fly
because they are too big for their wings ignore something basic: she
never tells us how big they are, nor how much their wingspread
is....

Perhaps the worst scientific problem with Pern is the spatial
relationship between the eccentric orbit of the "Red Star" planet
and that of Pern.  There is also the problem of how the spores
manage to leave the atmosphere of the Red Star.  I like McCaffrey's
work, but I think she goofed here.  I've found I enjoy the Pern
series if I don't think too much about this aspect.

All this may, or may not, be good fictional-science.  But in my book
(pun intended, and with no apologies, either), it does make for good
SF.  And for good stories, no matter what you call them.

H. George Friedman, Jr.
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1304 West Springfield Avenue
Urbana, Illinois  61801
USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman
CSNET:  friedman@uiuc.csnet
ARPA:   friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 22:12:06 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy

>Psionic stories are usually categorized as SF, not as fantasy.

To misquote Stasheff's "The Wizard Wandering":

"He's a wizard."
"What!?"
"He's a high-powered psionicist".
"Oh."

>There is also the problem of how the spores manage to leave the
>atmosphere of the Red Star.

OK, it's time someone gave away the secret.  The Red Star used to
have a satellite made of pure spore and nothing more: a McCaffrian
equivalent of the Mushroom Planet.  As you know Roche's Limit for
Mushroom Planets is much farther out than it is for regular moons,
since they are so much less cohesive.  For this reason, the Red Star
is surrounded by a cloud of spores at a considerable distance out.
(They, of course, are what makes it appear red.)  Pern passes near
enough to this cloud to draw the spores away from the Red Star.

Any other questions?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Mar 87 16:23:06 GMT (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: W.P.Griffin <ENU2856%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Pern, etc.

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque):
>>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern.  The
>>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous.
>I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but
>I would not consider it impossible for this to occur.  The Red Star
>never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away
>from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars
>is...

Yes, all very fine, the Red Star is probably not as far away as
Mars.  Have you ever considered how far away Mars is from Earth?
Even the moon is (by Earthly standards) an enormous distance to
travel.  Using the fastest means of travel known to man, it took
*days*.  To get to Mars would take *months*.  Everybody has this
image of what the planets look like in relation to each other.
Perhaps it looks like this:

Earth <----------------------> Mars
O <----------------------------> O

when in reality, those globes would be microscopic dots on that
scale.

To me, the idea that a living creature could just reach across that
multi-million mile distance is plainly ridiculous.

ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@UCL-CS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 04:20:51 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Pern anomalies (minor spoilers)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>The naming of Kylara's son with the honorific (apostrophe) was one
>>of several discrepancies which flaw (in a very small way) an
>>otherwise excellent series.  (I have said before that I don't
>>generally like series.  This is an exception.)  Another flaw is
>>that Lytol's dragon was

Considering that they name their kids such that the names CAN be
contracted, they probably come up with the contracted name and THEN
make the full one.  Still, your point is made; lost of
inconsistencies between DRAGONFLIGHT and the other two.  (Anyone
else notice that Fall went from ``6 hours when the Red Star is
closest'' (DRAGONFLIGHT) to 4 hours (DRAGONQUEST/THE WHITE DRAGON)?)

>And then there are Lessa's psychic powers, which figure so largely in
>"Weyr Seacrh"...

In DRAGONQUEST she "leaned" on the Lord Holders' minds after Jaxom
impressed Ruth.  I always noticed a similarity between this and
"pushing" (cf. King's FIRESTARTER)...  It must, however, be
remembered that F'lar has Mnementh watching out for her so that he
can stop her from psionically manhandling people (recall
DRAGONFLIGHT, whenever she tries to use her powers he stops her).
It may be concluded that it's frowned upon for poeple to do that...

Horrible thought: What if Kylara had had the ability?  Certainly
she'd not have let F'lar stop her from using it...

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 00:31:31 GMT
From: israel@brillig (Bruce Israel)
Subject: Re: Pern

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>(The short story "The Littlest Dragonrider" contradicted this
>slightly by having the main charatcer have an already-contracted
>name even though he was not yet a dragon-rider, but the trilogies
>hold to this pattern.)

As I recall the Littlest Dragonrider, the main character's name was
Keevan throughout the story, but after he impressed, Lessa referred
to him as K'van.

BTW, he appears as a very minor character (non-speaking) in the
White Dragon.  He's one of the dragonriders who show up in the
southern continent to help dig up the "mounds" which were the
spaceship ruins.

Anyone have any idea if and when a sequel to White Dragon is to come
out?  Between the spacecraft ruins and the Dawn Sisters which are so
obviously man-made satellites, it seems that she was setting things
in place for one.

Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept.
seismo!mimsy!israel (Usenet)
israel@mimsy.umd.edu (Internet)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 87 1042-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #92
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 87 1042-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #92
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 20:46:17 GMT
From: axiom!bill@rutgers.edu (William C Carton)
Subject: Re: Boskone

The crowd control argument was one that I used to justify
ever-larger and later-running film programs at Boskones. The
incremental cost of running 'till 5AM wasn't that much, and the
oodles of money brought in by the media fen was quite welcome.

I was the Boskone film manager from 1974 through 1982, along with
Noreascon II. You may have noticed that we ran ALIEN immediately
after it won the Hugo next door in the Hynes; that was partially for
artistic effect, partially to herd the media fen into the film room
instead of the elevators after the Hugo ceremony dumped out.

My trusty and loyal inner crew and I did a lot of SMOFFING about the
economics of a film-only con, and it was a tempting project. Boskone
chairpeople came and went, some more tolerant of a full-blown media
program than others. In the darkest moments of NESFA debate, I
almost offered to take the film program next door (to whichever
hotel the main con was in) and run it privately. After work
pressures made me give up running the program, the next few years
worth of technical snafus and no-recent-vintage-film policies STILL
weren't enough to stem the flow of media fen. I would have responded
by returning to the policies that made Boskones grow and prosper:
run a quality show, provide rowdies with an occasional turkey to
heckle, but ride herd on the audience during the serious films. (My
wife and I stopped the projectors more than once in the '70s to
admonish the audience.)

A film-intensive Boskone may even cost LESS than the latest ones. I
usually spent about $1.50-$2.00 per attendee, and delivered a fine
sound system and 10-12 feature films. Boskones now spend $2 or so
for logistics to haul soda, another $2 per person for publications
listing past years' Skylark winners, etc. What with down-sized
theatres, the Sheraton Boston's Grand Ballroom was the largest
cinema in the city for Labor Day weekend 1980, with the gut-rumbling
sound you can't experience anymore in the 'burbs. THAT's what a Con
should deliver; an event you can't get in the mundane world.

The recent party-fan troubles may only be solved by a closed-hotel
policy, where only registered Con members are allowed on the
premises.  This would be almost impossible in a downtown hotel; more
feasable in the nether regions of the state, where the Con has
100.00% of the rooms. For what it's worth........if I were dictator,
that's how I'd do it. (ACLU might put up its usual whimper...let
THEM put up with the party fans for a year at THEIR annual
convention, then they'll change their tune.)

Happy filmgoing!
Bill Carton
Axiom Technology, Newton, MA
{allegra,genrad,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!axiom!bill

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Mar 87  15:28:02 EST
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Boskone

                            ANNOUNCEMENT

The Sheraton in Boston has said it will not host Boskone next year,
nor will it host Noreason in 1989.  Large Boston hotels such as the
Park Plaza, the Copley Marriott and the Westin have also refused to
hold any large SF con.  The ostensible reason is discomfort with the
idea of a large 24 hour con, but it's a safe bet that the vandalism
in the South Tower on Friday night didn't sit too well with the
Sheraton.  There will be no Boskone memberships accepted until
further notice, next year's con will be held somewhere in the Boston
suburbs, and will probably be held at a maximum of 2500-3000 people
(this year's total attendance was nearly 5000).  As for Noreascon,
unless MCFI (the group that puts on Noreascon, largely NESFen and
NESFA hangers-on) can persuade the Sheraton to relent, there might
not be a Worldcon in 1989.  The Sheraton-Hynes complex is the only
facility in New England large enough to host a Worldcon; the next
suitable group] of auditoriums/hotels is in New York, and it's
probably too late to reserve it, not to mention that New York would
be much more expensive.  Looks as if Hoboken in '89 wasn't such a
bad idea after all.....

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 22:14:42 GMT
From: rpiacm!snuggle@rutgers.edu (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

First Suggestion: Split Boskone into two conventions to be held at
different times and at different locations.

Second Suggestion: Make Boskone bi-annual, thus giving NESFA more
time to set things up.

Third Suggestion: Make Boskone a floating regional convention in the
Northeast.  Local SF groups can bid on it like Worldcon and when
they win the bid, THEY take off some of the workload from NESFA
(yeah, I know, Boskone not held in Boston!! Perish the thought!)

Somehow I'd rather see a less frequent convention or a floating one
then one that may be ruined by possibly Draconian restrictions.

Chris Andersen
UUCP: ..!seismo!rpics!rpiacm!snuggle
BITNET: userez3l@rpitsmts.bitnet
INTERNET: userez3l@itsmts.rpi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 03:02:39 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone

From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> The Sheraton in Boston has said it will not host Boskone next
> year, nor will it host Noreason in 1989.  Large Boston hotels such
> as the Park Plaza, the Copley Marriott and the Westin have also
> refused to hold any large SF con.  ... As for Noreascon, unless
> MCFI (the group that puts on Noreascon, largely NESFen and NESFA
> hangers-on) can persuade the Sheraton to relent, there might not
> be a Worldcon in 1989.  The Sheraton-Hynes complex is the only
> facility in New England large enough to host a Worldcon

Before we all go off the deep end, I think a few things are worth
mentioning: MCFI has a contract with the Sheraton--they had to to
have an official bid.  The NESFA "Instant Message" talks about this;
they say they are trying for an amicable solution, but I see no
evidence that they would not take the Sheraton to court if necessary
to make them fulfill their contract.  The Hynes is under a separate
contract, I believe, and even if the Sheraton were not available,
MCFI would have the Hynes.  There are many hotels in the area which
could be approached (and already have been, as overflow hotels).  In
any case, MCFI could hold the Worldcon at the Holyoke Chalet Suisse
if they had to--Suncon was moved from Orlando to Miami Beach when
their hotel went under.  It *is* possible than MCFI would be forced
to put a cap on membership, but it's really too soon to tell.

I suspect there is no contract for Boskone, that being done on a
more timely basis.  I also think that a lot of what happens with
future Boskones and with Noreascon depends on what happens with the
next Boskone or two.  If NESFA can successfully downscale it and
keep it from being the 24-hour-a-day circus that it's become, the
hotel might be willing to honor their contract graciously.  My
understanding (and Don Eastlake can comment on this, as well as
everything else) is that their objection was to the round-the-clock
staffing that they needed to provide for SF cons that they didn't
need to provide to any other convention (for example, NESFA asks
that there be a snack bar open all night or until 3AM or some other
unusual hour).

Noreascon III is almost three years away, certainly time to solve
the problems that seem to be surfacing.  I have faith that MCFI can
solve them.  If you don't, don't sign up for Noreascon.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 19:39:30 GMT
From: sq!becky
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (Rich Kolker) writes:
>Still, there are a group of regionals with a long history, Boskone
>among them, which I think do have an obligation to serve the total
>spread of the science fiction spectrum because of their major
>regional status.
> ...  So this is my point.  The major regionals do have an
>obligation to cover the full spectrum of sf.  ...

As far as I can see, you haven't said WHY these cons have this
obligation.

Suppose I hold a party, and I make it an open party, and lots of
people come and we have a great time.  I do it again, and we have a
great time again.  And so on.  But the party gets bigger, and a lot
of the people I first invited stop coming, because one particular
group, that's advertised the party to lots of people of their
specialized interests, has grown too large and loud to ignore.  The
people I want to hold a party for/with no longer feel comfortable,
and can no longer talk about the things they're interested in
because they're constantly being interupted by people who aren't
interested in the same things.

Is it my responsibility to continue to hold a party for people I'm
not overly interested in seeing?  I stop letting just anyone in, and
I make the next party `by invitation only', and these people come to
my door and tell me I can't do that...  I mean, where's their right?
It's my party and I'll cry if I want to...

A Con that has that strong a rep has a responsibility to advertise
changes they're making in their programming goals.  Toronto's only
local con (boo hoo) is really a party con - or it's seemed so in the
past, at any rate - but its advertisements include info about
wonderful programming ideas, and interesting, thought-provoking
guests...  Although I would like to see a Toronto-regional con that
caters to people who (can read) enjoy good programming (other than
the back-rubbing seminar), Ad Astra has every right to be whatever
they want to be.  I just wish they'd advertise what they're all
about, rather than trying to bring people to a con they might very
well not enjoy.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 16:11:04 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel

It's still too early, as I understand there are still negotiations
going on, but some early ideas re: If 89 NOT= Boston (due to Hotel
Hassles)

According to the World Science Fiction Association (WSFA)
constitution (not in front of me at this minute, but I looked at it
over the weekend) the 89 Worldcon is in the hands of the Boston
group until such time as they relinquish it, or a committee made up
of the chairs of the existing Worldcon committees decides it is
defunct (unlikely at best).  There is no requirement I can find in
the constitution that MSSF (sp?)  hold the convention in Boston,
just in the eastern region as defined in the constitution.  As past
reference I give you 1977, where the con passed through three cities
and four hotels on its way to Miami Beach.  (or was it Miami?)

Therefore, MSFF (I think this one's right) could hold the con in
NYC, Baltimore, DC, Philly, etc without turning it over to local bid
committees in any of those cities.

I think if Boston has become untenable as a site, they'd better act
quickly to see of any east coast city has available space sufficient
for Worldcon.  Of course, if they patch things up with the Sheraton
(as I hope they do), all this is moot.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 19:28:20 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone

Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes:
>The Sheraton in Boston has said it will not host Boskone next year,
>nor will it host Noreason in 1989.  Large Boston hotels such as the
>Park Plaza, the Copley Marriott and the Westin have also refused to
>hold any large SF con.  The ostensible reason is discomfort with
>the idea of a large 24 hour con, but it's a safe bet that the
>vandalism in the South Tower on Friday night didn't sit too well
>with the Sheraton.

This seems a bit overblown.  The Westin has always been too high
class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected
all approaches.  As for the others of the big three, some
discussions are still going on and the issue is not settled yet.

>  There will be no Boskone memberships accepted until further
>notice, next year's con will be held somewhere in the Boston
>suburbs, and will probably be held at a maximum of 2500-3000 people
>(this year's total attendance was nearly 5000).

To be precise, no Boskone 25 memberships have been accepted since
Feb 28th.  Those arriving 1 March or later are being held and will
be returned as soon as a cover letter is agreed on.  (However,
Boskone Life Memberships, currently $360, are still being accepted.
That's 20 time the last announced Boskone pre-reg rate of $18.
Since it seems very likely that this rate will go up quite a bit,
now is the time if you are interested in Life Membership.)  Also, at
the NESFA Business Meeting held yesterday, a cap of 2000 members was
endorsed.  A lot of other extremely stringent policies were
endorsed, at least for 1988, to get Boskone back under control.
Attendance at this year's Boskone was between 4100 and 4200 members
plus a number of people who never did join.

> As for Noreascon, unless MCFI (the group that puts on Noreascon,
>largely NESFen and NESFA hangers-on) can persuade the Sheraton to
>relent, there might not be a Worldcon in 1989.  The Sheraton-Hynes
>complex is the only facility in New England large enough to host a
>Worldcon; the next suitable group] of auditoriums/hotels is in New
>York, and it's probably too late to reserve it, not to mention that
>New York would be much more expensive.  Looks as if Hoboken in '89
>wasn't such a bad idea after all.....

Bullshit.  There are over 8,000 hotel rooms in the Boston area so
that even if the currently on-going negotiations with the largest
hotels don't work out, enough space could be found.  Noreascon has
already tentatively increased its space reservation at the John B.
Hynes Convention Center from 2/3 to all of the facility so enough
function space will be available even if the funciton space in the
Sheraton turns out not to be available.  The nearest alternative
facilities are probably Hartford Connecticut, not NYC, and in any
case, in the unlikely event that the convention has too move, there
are plenty of large hungry convention complexes around the eastern
US that would probably love the business.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 06:23:43 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel

I've been told that Noreascon and their lawyers have gone to the
hotels and the Chamber of Commerce and pointed out that (1) they
have a legal contract, that (2) the hotel has no legal right to void
that contract, that (3) that the city is due to reap in about
$10,000,000 from Noreascon, and (4) if they DON'T honor their
contract, a large (they are estimating 9,000 attending for
Noreascon) bunch of noisy and influential people will be screaming
about how nasty Boston is in years.

If the legal contract doesn't get them, do you really think the CoC
will let them cancel out ten million dollars in revenue for the
city?  hah.

(for reference, the Noreascon budget is about $1,000,000, even
before they sell their first restaurant meal or hotel room).

I expect it'll be in Boston when all of this blows over.  Boskone is
another matter.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 87 1101-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #93
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 87 1101-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #93
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Kurtz (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 03:49:17 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes
>>full-blown at the moment of assumption. [ I wrote this - Shoshanna
>>]
>Right.  Warin is an example of what happens if you have the talent
>without the training.  Also, we've seen several cases of men with
>the potential being 'easy to train'.

I don't see how Warin follows, here. Are you saying that Warin has
the "Haldane-type" power? Are you claiming, then, that he probably
went through a Haldane-type power ritual? Or are you saying that
Warin is actually Deryni (my own theory--imagine his face! He and
Jehana could start their own support group...)

Note that the Haldane power ritual actually has two parts. The first
usually occurs early in the life of the heir, and serves to set the
powers; that is to say, to create he potential for their later
assumption. The second is what I have been calling the ritual of
assumption, and serves to trigger the powers, after which they are
available for use. For example, Cinhil's children's powers are set
when they are very young. Presumably the form of the assumption
ritual is determined at that time; recall that Brion had arranged a
specific ritual for Kelson, and much of "Deryni Rising" hung on
whether Morgan et al. could figure it out.

Sometimes the two parts of the ritual happen together; Cinhil's, for
example. Sometimes they are separated by years; the Haldane heir
usually has his powers set in infancy and triggered when he ascends
the throne.

>The Haldane ritual can be explained in one, or both, of two ways, I
>think.  a) It functions primarily to remove a *suppression* applied
>specially to the Haldanes because of the explosive potential of
>having too many people in the same family with powers.

An interesting idea. In fact, perhaps the first part of the ritual
is the suppression, with specific triggers set to avoid accidental
triggering. However, this would have to be a recent pattern;
certainly no-one at the Restoration was worrying about having to
*suppress* Haldane power. (The Regents, on the other hand... I
always wondered if they tried to suppress the semi-Deryni abilities
of the princes. If they even knew about them...)

>b) It invokes divine aid in providing 'training' along with access
>to the simple power.

Do you mean that the ritual functions partly as a prayer for
guidance (no argument there), or that it literally and reliably
summons divine aid, and that that's how the Haldanes know
immediately how to use their power? Argument there.

>We see that the Haldane situation is special when we are told that
>Conal, as heir, is *expected* to be picking up some powers simply
>by virtue of being heir.  Surely in no other family do men begin to
>gain the power because their legal status has changed.

Well, but this expectation isn't surprising. Everyone thinks of the
Haldane powers as divine aspects of kingship. Not just the
peasantry, but everyone, although knowledgable people like Morgan &
Duncan may be open to other ideas as well. Even the Camberian
Council has a superstitious fear of more than one Haldane even
attempting to hold power simultaneously, probably because such an
attempt is tantamount to setting oneself up as equal to the King.
(Imagine if a Catholic bishop claimed that he too could speak
infallibly _ex_cathedra_.) Of course, some members of the Council
are more enlightened than others :-)

I don't think that Haldane men (women? Never been a reigning queen
that we know of) actually begin to gain their powers when their
legal status changes, except in that they expect to. Although the
triggers could be set in infancy to effect this; since the powers
are psionic/psychological/mind-controlled, it should be possible to
have the knowledge that one is the heir have an effect.

>By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems
>fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as
>opposed to 'human' powers.

Sure. No one in this universe claims that Deryni and humans are
different species; they interbreed! But there do seem to be
qualitative differences between "Haldane-type" powers and
"Deryni-type" powers. Haldane-type powers are set and triggered by
rituals. They are comprised of a certain number of clearly-defined
abilities with, from the moment of triggering, knowledge of their
use when they are needed. Deryni-type powers arise spontaneously,
like any normal talent, and require training in their use for any
kind of real competence.

Whether all humans (persons without Deryni-type power) can assume
Haldane-type power is unknown. Certainly it is nearly treason and
blasphemy in some circles to suggest it.

>I can't imagine any mechanism for evolving such a sophisticated
>complex of *potential* powers.  So it follows that at one time
>untrained but usable powers were fairly common.  Three mechanisms
>suggest themselves for causing these powers to be lost.  a)
>Intermarriage [ ... deleted ... ] b) At some point in history the
>powers became countersurvival, and only those whose abilities were
>blocked/impaired survived.  There's an interesting story in that.
>Maybe the healers of that day *induced* the blockage.

*** SPOILER FOR CAMBER THE HERETIC ***

Well, Deryni powers were certainly counter-survival in 918, and the
Healers did discover a way to do just that. Even then, however,
Deryni were only a small fraction of the population, not "fairly
common".

*** END SPOILER ***

> c) The loss of power goes back to prehistoric times, to the
>extinction of some plant that had once been a fairly common part of
>the human diet and which supplied a missing enzyme.  The Deryni are
>descended from those who manufactured their own.  This is the
>explanation I prefer, although it contains some serious weaknesses
>too.)

Then you have reduced the problem of a gene for Deryniness to that
of a gene for the enzyme production.

Wow, this is fun.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 04:13:01 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>** Some spoilers for Quest for St. Camber herein **
>beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>>As far as the Y chromosone goes - although that possibility
>>bothered me through most of my first reading of Bishop's Heir -
>>Dughal never went through anything aproaching a power activation
>>ritual.  I dont think that a mind link would satisfy the
>>requirements of an effective ritual (whatever they are exactly -
>>but Camber or Rhys made sure to brief Cinhil on them to make sure
>>he knew - so they are probably not perfectly straitforward)
>
>But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes
>full-blown at the moment of assumption. Regular Deryni powers arise
>slowly (if at all) and require formal training. Dhugal has no need
>for a power ritual because he does not carry the "Haldane-type"
>power. (As far as we know... gosh, this is almost as much fun as
>Watchmen speculation! :-) )

That's what I was saying.  I apparently wrote that too late at night
and didn't express myself clearly.  The block was in response to a
the previous poster's suggestion that Dhugal might have the Y
chromosone type power.  I also said that by now it has been pretty
well established that Dhugal is Deryni.

>Now, this raises two questions:
>1) How did training help Conal, if the Haldane power arrives
>full-blown?  2) How did Conal get his powers without a power
>ritual?

I suspect that the answers to one and two essentially that Tiercil
probably did a lot of poking around in Conall's head before any
results were obtained.  I even think it says such somewhere in the
King's Justice.  I dont think that Tiercil put Connal through any
sort of formal ritual - mostly because Tiercil didnt know enough at
the start to formulate an effective one.  However in poking around
looking for how to do it and experimenting he probably satisfied the
requirements.  Remember the Council doesnt have a good theorectical
background on such things as Camber or even Wencit of Torenth.  Some
of this may come from having more of an open mind.

>Well, since no one knows why it is that the Haldanes are able to
>assume power anyway, this isn't a problem, it just goes under
>"insufficient data" and gets speculated about. Camber et al. just
>happened to notice that something about Cinhil made him able to
>have some Deryni powers "implanted"; I don't think they even knew
>at the type that the ability was inherited, let alone sex-linked.
>(Is it?  The characters think so, but they aren't always right...)

I forget what article or letter I mentioned it in so I'll say it
again.  Katheryn told me quote: "Nobody in this universe understands
genetics." refering to the Deryni universe of course.  General
belief seems to recognize that the Haldane power descends in the
male line.  However until the events of the Quest for St. Camber
graphicly proved otherwise the self proclaimed experts believed that
only one Haldane could have the power at one time.  Only Tiercil and
Wencit seemed convinced that more than one could.  Although Kelson
had no problem with the concept of giving Nigel partial power.

>Maybe this ties in with the healing powers of Warin de Grey
>(remember him?). It has been occasionally speculated that anyone
>can receive "Haldane-type" powers. Also recall Bran Coris.

I seem to recall Morgan mentioning in Deryni Checkmate that there
were other families with haldane-like potential.  The Hort of
Orsal's family was among such.

My personal theory is that the power potential is associated with
the human ruling houses of the original eleven kingdoms.  Those that
had human ruling families that is. (I dont think Torenth ever had
one) Thus Bran Corus probably had the potential through descent from
Seighere of Marley and the Rulers of Eastmarch.  A strong
correlation like this would not be due to chance in that powerful
charisma seems to go along with the potential and thus such families
would tend to become leaders.

>Conal's "Haldane-type" power presumably requires a power ritual.
>Perhaps he and his mentor went through one; we never see how they
>met and began training him. Or perhaps Deryni blood in the Haldane
>line cropped up and Conall was exercising "Deryni-type" power
>instead of "Haldane-type" power as everyone assumed. (I hope my
>terminology is clear here.)

>>3.  "Where do you think the Second Sight comes from?", answered
>>Katheryn Kurtz to the question stated above.
>
>What question was this? I didn't follow you. I suggested in a
>recent posting that the border "second sight" might well come from
>Deryni intermixing.

The question was about Dhugal's being Deryni when he shouldnt be.  I
think the way we phrased the inquiry at the con mentiond that there
must be a lot of Deryni blood in the borders.

>>4.  Someone should check to see if Calder of Scheel is Deryni and
>>    if he is find out who got him past ordination.
>
>Unfortunately most of my books are 3000 miles away and can't be
>sent.  Could you remind me who Calder of Scheel is?

(now ex-)Bishop Calder of Scheel is Maryse MacArdry's maternal
uncle.  and thus Dhugal's great-uncle.  If you keep the genetics
then Maryse must be an XX' deryni (Caulay wasnt deryni) Maryse's
mother is either XX' or X'X' (depending on whether one or both of
her parents were deryni) thus Calder has an at least 50% chance of
being deryni.  Of course the fact that he made it into the
priesthood indicates that he isnt unless someone intervened.  He
doesnt appear to be a likely canidate for a miricle.

>And I do hope you've read "The Priesting of Arilan." As far as I
>can tell, that was a genuine miracle.

I've read all the Deryni stories in print. Except possibly for some
things that have appeared in the fanzine "Deryni Chronicles" or
"Deryni Archives" I forget the exact title. (no I'm not talking about
the anthology)

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 17:59:42 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

How does this sound?

1.  All humans have some potential for Deryni powers.  This is why
Deryni can draw upon 'normal' humans for their strength and support
in working exhausting 'spells'.  However, most humans cannot use
this potential.  I suggested in an earlier posting that, since a
single gene seems to make the difference between having and not
having a host of usable powers, that gene probably serves to unblock
a potential which already exists in most humans.

2.  Anyone with either the Deryni X gene or the Haldane Y gene has
access to those Deryni powers.  Typically, training is required.
Those with the gene and without the training will sometimes be able
to use their powers in an instinctive, often unsophisticated way.
Warin's healing, Jehana's attempt to fight, the second sight...No
power-assumption ritual is needed in either case.  There are
indications that, without training, the X gene tends to confer
significantly more usable powers than the Y gene.

3.  All Haldane males have the Haldane Y gene, and therefore have
the Deryni potential.  Since all but the king believe themselves
powerless, they generally are, though the power may be awakened by
training, need, belief or stimulation.  No power assumption ritual
is needed.

4.  The Haldane power assumption ritual has two purposes. One is to
stimulate the subject's dormant powers.  To the extent that the
barriers to the use of that power are psychological, the ritual must
be quite dramatic.

   The other is to instill in the subject the equivalent of a
program of training in the use of those powers.  (Not too much
theory seems to be transferred.  The subject probably can't
accomplish things which require subtle spells.  However, anything
that can be accomplished by raw power becomes available.)

   I suggested that the ritual invokes divine aid to achieve this.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that the aid in question is not
subject to invocation.  Still, the knowledge must have a source.
I'll point out that every instance of the ritual which we've seen
includes at least one person well versed in the use of Deryni
powers.  Perhaps, although the participants are not aware of it, the
ritual causes a direct transfer of *skill* from the adept to the
subject.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 21:12:03 GMT
From: elliott@aero.ARPA (Ken Elliott)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems
>fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as
>opposed to 'human' powers.  The inheritance patterns of the powers
>back up the claim that a single gene may be responsible.  (As they
>should, since the patterns and the claim come from the same
>author.)  But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant
>telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a
>serious merasha allergy, and what have you.

Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane
line has ever been exposed to merasha.  If Deryni and human (i.e.,
Haldane) powers are really different, then I claim that the human
wouldn't be affected.  Might be interesting if they were affected,
though.  That brings up the question of what would (could) be
merasha's affect on a Haldane that has 'assumed' the powers (or has
had some manifestation of them), as opposed to one who hasn't.  Then
there's always the color difference when the 'different' powers are
being used ("Get'chor Color Spectrumizer Here! Only a buck! You
can't tell the players without a Spectrumizer..." :-) ).

Ken Elliott
elliott@aerospace.ARPA
elliott!aero.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 87 1131-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #94
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 87 1131-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #94
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Fanzines (2 msgs) &
                                Looking for Opinions &
                                Abbreviations &
                                What Gets You First (4 msgs) &
                                UFO's & Star-drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 87 05:30:04 GMT
From: 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld)
Subject: Request for Fanzine Info

Does anyone out there know of a fanzine(s) interested in a Dr Who
story?  Could be either a specificaly Who zine or just a random
media zine that has run Who stories in the past.  Please e-mail
rather than post.  Thanx in advance.

HAROLD FELD
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC  (PREFERABLY)
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Mar 87 13:04 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: fanzines..

I am currently engaged in a sociological study of the type of people
who produce fanzines.  More specifically, I am interested in the
differences between fanzines produced primarily by females and those
produced primarily by males.

How can you help?

Well, though it sounds rather presumptuous of me to ask, what I am
interested in is some input on fanzines from people who either read,
produce or contribute to them.  It is my humble premise that 'zines
produced primarily by women are substantially different then those
produced primarily by men.  I would like to take some prime examples
of both, for comparison and anlysis.  I have already been informed
by one or two kindly souls of some titles to look for, but what I
would like are the names of both recent and 'classic' 'zines.  What
I am after names that are highly regarded, well-known 'zines and the
like.  Names and addresses of well-known 'zine producers would be
VERY appreciated.

To my knowledge, the only major piece of research on the subject was
a book from the early seventies called "Fanzines: A Special Form of
Communication", by Dr. Frederick Wertham (yes, that one).

If people could respond to me with suggestions, names, addresses and
the like to my net address, I'd be most appreciative.

sincerely,
Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 00:16:25 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_atty (Clisair)
Subject: Looking for Opinions of material for book

I need help in completing, or rather writing my book called,
"Elisarian Chronicles of Time".

I posted an article on it and then for some reason it got dumped.
Now I don't know how this happened, but I would appreciate your
reading this one and then writing me back.  I could really use the
help in this by you using the information provided here to come up
with short stories.  Or I could send you a more complete and
detailed file that you could work from.

All that I ask is that you give me a chance.

This could actually turn out to be fun.  Who knows, it could turn
into another THIEVES WORLD, or something like that.  And I know that
out there somewhere there has to be people who love to write, but
could not think of something to write about.  Well!!!! here is
something just for you.  Information that you can write from.

So once again I ask you to give me a chance, send me something or at
the least, talk about me over the net.

               **** ELISAIRIAN CHRONICLES OF TIME ***

                               prolog

We live our lives in darkness, even though we perceive it as light.
For death is darkness,even as we are dark.  Every place we turn, we
spread this darkness, which gives light to death.  In this we gain
true light.

                                VOL II ELISARIAN BOOKS OF SCIENCE
                                SPEAKER: CELONE, KING OF ELVES

   As I sit here reflecting on the past, I begin to wonder: What is
it that causes pain to spread between people like an infectious
virus?  They cheat and lie to one another as if it is a favorite
past-time to cause and receive pain.  Even in myself I have seen
this at times.  But, now that I am many years older, I begin to
understand. (The years are not as yours, for in a day, months have
past here)
   People need love, and so when they cannot find it, they seek
pain.  Then those with pain find themselves unable to love anyone,
least of all themselves.  In this way more pain is caused to spread
between nations.
   This is an account that many will find fictitious and bizarre, but
it is true in a very real sense of the word.  Many have visited my
lands, and have shown it to others.  So as you read these words, you
who are my subjects (and those who are not) you will begin to
understand what my words mean.
   So I now give to you my heritage taught and shown to me through
the memories of my ancestors in myself, not as I have lived, but as
they themselves have lived to pass on to me, their son.  For I am
their promised King without a throne, but throne and crown I shall
once again find.  Then none shall stop me from claiming my destiny.

   Now that I have given you these words, I hope they give meaning
to all those who love life.  They are also the beginnings of my tale
of that of my ancestors, and the rise and fall of the elven peoples
of the most ancient of times in earth.  Their loves, hates and
deepest felt emotions are within these pages; and I charge you who
read them to keep them alive in your harts and minds, seeing that
they are real.
                                Lord William Clisair I
                                King of the Elven Nations

   These are the first few opening words of a novel I am Presently
working on.  I present them to you for opinions, criticisms, or what
ever.  Any and all ideas are welcome, who knows, I may even use them
and mention you as well.
   The reason I am asking you is that I need some fresh ideas to
work with, as well as keys to unlock and release the flow of words
that are locked up inside me.

                        BRIEF REVIEW OF CHARACTERS

ELISAIR    founder of Elisaria and first king

CELLONE    Elisair's friend, second king until he died in
           battle against Count Deimitria

CLISAIR    Cellone's transdimensional son from twentieth
           century Earth, later King of all elves

TIERRA     Cellone's wife stranded on earth who finally gave
           birth to Clisair before rejoining her husband in
           Elisaria

TRIARRA   Clisair's daughter and Count Deimitria's wife which
          came about in an alliance to win war with northern
          nations at war with Elisaria during time of peace
          with the Count

MARC      Clisair's estranged son cause of his lust for his
          sister.  Banished to earth, but returns with a
          lust for Clisair's blood

CLISAIR II        Crown Prince to throne of Elisaria, but due
          to the Count's mischief, is trapped into going to earth,
          only to find that when he goes back, he is in a different
          version of Elisaria called Elisair where he is hated by
          all but the Count Deimitry, the likeness of his enemy and
          just as evil

GALANA    sister of Mirra, maried to here nephew Marc

HIRRA     wife of Clisair, Daughter of Elisair

COUNT DEIMITRIA   Sorcerer from same time period as Clisair
                  who is attempting to take over Elisaria

KING VALKIRROC    Vampiric king of Direthorn (i.e. Black Forest)
                  He is somewhat Clisair's ally

etc......

   Story starts in 12 BC in the English Islands with war having just
started between men and elves, due to the advancement in the elven
society upon the land of men.
   Elves defeated and begin to plan a retaliation war when Elisair
shows up and leads them to Elisar instead.
   After the rise of the empire under Cellon and Tierra's return to
Elisar and both their deaths, scene switches to earth, 20 th century
where a young couple adopt a newborn child named William Clisair.
   Liking the name already given they just add their last name and
called him Clisair from then on.  Within months the child begins to
manifest strange unnatural powers and abilities over nature. The
story would then develop to show how he grew up and his eventual rise
to the throne of Elisar.

   BRAIN STORM   What do you think of possible writing short stories
              and then putting them into a continuous book form.
              I have all the necessary information in the form of
              a time table as well as a list of some of the names
              and descriptions of the names of different people
              and places as well as a detailed map of Elisaria

So PLEASE send me your responses so the work can continue

Wm. Drummond
BITNET: INS_ATTY@JHUVMS.BITNET
        ins_atty@jhunix.BITNET
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!
        allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_atty
        ihnp4!whuxcc!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 22:46:43 GMT
From: reed!jean@rutgers.edu (R.James Rudden)
Subject: abbreviations

I have a complaint about a number of the postings in this newsgroup:
the over-use and abuse of abbreviations.  I just read an article on
Heinlein's books that refered to 3 or 4 books by using the first
letter of each word.  Now, I don't know about all you, but I have
only read 2 or 3 of Heinlein's novels and I certainly would not be
able to recognize one whose title I may have heard, simply by the
"initials".

Please, if you are refering to a book or movie, even if it is one
that you believe everyone who reads SF should have read, or should
have seen, call it by name.  If you refer to the same work later in
the article, then it is cool to use an abbreviation.

Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 16:43:07 GMT
From: guest@ssl-macc.co.uk (Guest Account)
Subject: What gets you first ?

I was just wondering ...

If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
what is the result ?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not good,
:-), but what is it that kills you ?

There seem to be a whole list of candidates, such as going "POP" in
a messy way, or something subtle, (but equally nasty), like boiling
blood.

However, some of these will take longer than others, and I'm
interested to know which one gets you first.

Does it make any difference if you are "near" a star, in deep space,
or in the shade of a spaceship ?

(I imagine I'd get a serious reply from one of the sci. groups
 but they might regard it as frivolous :-) ).

Mike Horner
Software Sciences Ltd
London & Manchester House
Park Street
Macclesfield, UK.
TEL:  +44 625 29241
EMAIL:guest@ssl-macc.co.uk
UUCP: mcvax!ukc!sslvax!guest

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 22:39:41 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

guest@ssl-macc.co.ukwrites:
>If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
>what is the result ?  ...

According to various sources (including a number of tests back in
the '50s) exposure to vacuum is a major *inconvenience*. You aren't
likely to go 'pop' as your skin is capable of handling the pressure
differential.  This also puts boiling blood pretty far down the
list.

If you are in 'sunlight' close to a star you may have trouble with
massive sunburn.

The most likely results would be a race between lack of oxygen and
ruptured lungs (which would result in hemorrhaging. ie you bleed to
death).

A couple details often overlooked are what happens to all the gas in
your digestive system. (massive belching and flatulence). And you
are quite likely to rupture your eardrums. And if you have clogged
sinuses...well not any more you don't...

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 23:15:09 GMT
From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

> If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
> what is the result ?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not good,
> :-), but what is it that kills you ?

Here's what I think happens:

All the air rushes out of your lungs FAST.  You shouldn't have any
problems if your mouth is open.

You run low on oxygen in your blood, and pass out.

Your blood starts to boil.  You die.

Depending on your nearness to a sun, your body gets baked/frozen.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 08:05:43 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

guest@ssl-macc.co.uk writes:
> If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
> what is the result ?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not good,
> :-), but what is it that kills you ?

Oh boy, the great vacuum breathing debate again.  I really should
know better, but...

Part of it depends on what you're breathing (actually, more on the
pressure).  If you're on pure O2 at, say, 3 psi, you should
experience a bit of discomfort (but no explosion).  After about 15
to 30 seconds, you lose consciousness (oxygen deprivation).  Then
you die.

The amount of discomfort experienced would depend on whether you
were ready for the decompression.  Your eardrums might pop, and your
vocal cords could get mangled if you were trying to hold your
breath.

I don't know if holding your breath after you take a nice big breath
of vacuum would give you any extra seconds or not.  Certainly you
don't want to try holding it before you exhale.

At higher pressures (14.7 psi, Oxygen-nitrogen) the explosive
decompression would be a real problem.  You might have time to get
the bends before you pass out.  I don't know if anyone has been
cruel enough to subject monkeys to explosive decompression from one
atmosphere or not.

What other problems?  Assuming you dive from air-lock to air-lock
and survive (15 to 30 seconds is a long time for certain activities)
you might have some problems with minor hemorrhages and sunburn (I
don't know about the hemorrhages, either.  Someone was doing some
experiments with leaky space suits.  They seemed to work pretty
well, according to the report).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 20:40 MST
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: UFOs

From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
>   If you want to be convinced that UFO's are real, read
> _Aliens_in_the_Skies by John G. Fuller. It leaves little room for
> doubt.

Ah yes... John Fuller, former writer for Candid Camera, now
full-time writer of pseudoscience.  He wrote INCIDENT AT EXETER and
THE INTERRUPTED JOURNEY (both about UFOs), ARIGO: SURGEON OF THE
RUSTY KNIFE (about a since-debunked "psychic surgeon"), MY STORY
(about phony psychic Uri Geller), and the wildly exaggerated WE
ALMOST LOST DETROIT (about the October 1966 accident at the Fermi I
nuclear reactor).
   If you want to read the skeptical viewpoint about UFOs, read some
books by Philip Klass and James Oberg.

Jim Lippard
LIPPARD@MULTICS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 13:02 EST
From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Star-drives

The person who brought up this subject mentioned relativity as a
problem only in connection with "warp drive".

Once again, with a weary sigh, we must repeat:

Relativity is a "problem" with /any/ form of faster-than-light
travel.  If relativity is true (and all the evidence says it is)
then /any/ form of FTL violates causality exactly as much as time
travel does.  It doesn't matter whether you use wormholes, parallel
spaces with different laws, or transfer booths: FTL, causality, and
relativity cannot all be true.  You must throw out one of the three.
(It would be interesting to classify star-travel stories into four
groups: those that exclude FTL, those that dump causality, those
that deny relativity, and those that don't choose to face the issue.
The first and last would be the big winners.)

Now, I enjoy FTL stories a /lot/.  But as long as we are listing
problems with different kinds of star drives, we /must/ list
relativity next to every form of FTL.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Mar 87 0907-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #95
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 87 0907-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #95
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Kurtz (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 23:36:46 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?"

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>General belief seems to recognize that the Haldane power descends
>in the male line.  However until the events of the Quest for St.
>Camber graphicly proved otherwise the self proclaimed experts
>believed that only one Haldane could have the power at one time.
>Only Tiercil and Wencit seemed convinced that more than one could.
>Although Kelson had no problem with the concept of giving Nigel
>partial power.

What they were giving him was mostly (only?) the first part of the
Haldane ritual, where the potential is set up. A bit of it might
have been available, but not the full-blown power.

>I seem to recall Morgan mentioning in Deryni Checkmate that there
>were other families with haldane-like potential.  The Hort of
>Orsal's family was among such.

Very true, so it was.

>My personal theory is that the power potential is associated with
>the human ruling houses of the original eleven kingdoms.  Those
>that had human ruling families that is. (I dont think Torenth ever
>had one) Thus Bran Corus probably had the potential through descent
>from Seighere of Marley and the Rulers of Eastmarch.  A strong
>correlation like this would not be due to chance in that powerful
>charisma seems to go along with the potential and thus such
>families would tend to become leaders.

I don't think Torenth is one of the Eleven Kingdoms. Aren't the
so-called "Eleven Kingdoms" the small kingdoms over which the king
of Gwynedd, which is one of them, is high king? Kelson is king of
Gwynedd, and therefore overlord of the kings of Llanadd, Howice, and
all the others whose names I can't remember because they're mostly
unimportant. (For instance, the Princess Janniver's father is a king
who owes fealty to Kelson.) We haven't really seen much of the
political organization of the Eleven Kingdoms (except as it relates
to Meara!); some of this is extrapolated from what we've been
told...

>(now ex-)Bishop Calder of Scheel is Maryse MacArdry's maternal
>uncle.  and thus Dhugal's great-uncle.  If you keep the genetics
>then Maryse must be an XX' deryni (Caulay wasnt deryni) Maryse's
>mother is either XX' or X'X' (depending on whether one or both of
>her parents were deryni) thus Calder has an at least 50% chance of
>being deryni.  Of course the fact that he made it into the
>priesthood indicates that he isnt unless someone intervened.  He
>doesn't appear to be a likely canidate for a miricle.

I think that later books, since the postscript on genetics was
published, have pretty much forced us not to rely on it as an
explanation of Deryni inheritance. (Has anyone specifically asked
her if she still means to hold to it?) I went and looked Calder up
in the index to people in Quest, and it's *real* unlikely that a
Deryni would side with Loris, don't you think? And if he's a Deryni
and doesn't know it, how did he get past ordination?

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 23:48:24 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

elliott@aero.UUCP (Ken Elliott) writes:
>Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane
>line has ever been exposed to merasha.

Holy Camber, yes! Remember King Brion? Remember how he died?
Remember *why* he died? Remember Morgan pulling out a flask of wine
and saying "This is what killed your father"?

There is good circumstantial evidence that Brion was not Deryni.
Surely Morgan would have noticed it. Besides their life-long
friendship, Morgan guided Brion through his power assumption ritual
(as documented as in the short story "Swords Against the Marluk" in
the theme anthology "Barbarians").

It is unquestionable, however, that merasha does not affect normal
humans as it affects "Haldanes" and Deryni. ("Haldanes" is in quotes
because I mean any people with the "Haldane-type" power, not
necessarily descendants of that line.) For normal humans, it is just
a mild sedative, with no harmful effects. So why does it affect
"Haldanes"? Don't you wish the characters knew more genetics and
biology, so that they'd start asking some of these questions and we
could maybe find out?

>That brings up the question of what would (could) be merasha's
>affect on a Haldane that has 'assumed' the powers (or has had some
>manifestation of them), as opposed to one who hasn't.

Now *there's* a good question...

>Then there's always the color difference when the 'different'
>powers are being used ("Get'chor Color Spectrumizer Here! Only a
>buck! You can't tell the players without a Spectrumizer..." :-) ).

I don't recall a consistent color differentiation between "Haldane"
and "Deryni" powers, which I gather is what you mean. The color
differences between Kelson's and Charissa's spells I took to be due
to the fact that they were using different spells (and to the fact
that KK had not worked everything out at that point).

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 23:59:56 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

I believe that Camber et al. consciously implanted in Cinhil a
clearly-defined set of abilities, passing their own knowledge to him
after choosing a set of powers that would be congenial (Deryni
powers congenial to Cinhil?! You know what I mean: appropriate and
useful to a human king). Since each king since then seems to have
set the triggers for his heir (in the first part of the ritual, in
infancy), this knowledge may well have been passed down that way,
with or without the knowledge of the assisting Deryni, if any. We
simply don't have enough data to formulate a really good theory;
we've only seen a few such rituals and they haven't been what you
could call typical (Kelson was Deryni, which might have changed
things, Cinhil was the first ever and no one really knew what they
were doing...)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 23:36:34 GMT
From: ee2131ab@ariel.unm.edu (Apollo)
Subject: Mersha (was ...)

>Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane
>line has ever been exposed to merasha.  If Deryni and human (i.e.,
>Haldane)

Wasn't Kelson's father (can't remember his name) exposed to Mersha
in the first book which helped to lead to his death.

Mark Giaquinto

{ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!izar!cs2633bg
cs2633bg@izar.UNM.EDU
{ucbvax:gatech:unm-la:lanl}!unmvax!ariel!ee2131ab
ee2131ab@ariel.UNM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 18:45:25 GMT
From: sdcrdcf!markb@rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>I believe that Camber et al. consciously implanted in Cinhil a
>clearly-defined set of abilities, passing their own knowledge to
>him after choosing a set of powers that would be congenial (Deryni
>powers
> ...  this knowledge may well have been passed down that way, with
>or without the knowledge of the assisting Deryni, if any. We simply
>don't have enough data to formulate a really good theory; we've
>only seen a few such rituals and they haven't been what you could
>call typical (Kelson

Also notice that the Eye of Rolm has been a part of every power
ritual and that a crystal would be a good place to store a whole lot
of information.

As to the evolution of the whole spectrum of powers, you only need
to evolve one power first: Telekinetic power on a very low energy
level.  Then wishing hard enough and subconscious manipulation of
genes gets you everything else.


Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 22:23:37 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>... But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant
>telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a
>serious merasha allergy, and what have you.  ...
>
>...  I can't imagine any mechanism for evolving such a
>sophisticated complex of *potential* powers.  ...

From some 'hints' in the Camber trilogy and from the obvious
importance of religion in the books (esp. the incidence of 'divine
intervention') I'm inclined to believe that the Deryni gene is the
result of an 'Act of God' at some point in the past. (my money is on
something during or shortly after Christ's lifetime)

There are a *lot* of unanswered questions from the Camber books.
Such as that cubical 'checkboard' ward pattern.... There just isn't
enough TIME for some things to have happened (you think maybe they
developed all this overnight?)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 06:14:02 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Saint Bearand Haldane

Recently I posted a comment saying that I thought Bearand Haldane
might have been Deryni (or did I just mail it to someone? I forget).
Since then I have gotten a clue (i.e. I went to a bookstore today
and looked at the family trees) and realized that this is
impossible, or at least *real* unlikely. Bearand was the father of
Ifor, killed in the Festillic takeover. I had misremembered him as
being several generations further back. The Haldane line is firmly
believed to be human at the time; while it's conceivable that
Bearand was Deryni, it's unlikely (and practically certain that he
didn't know it if he was).

Which still leaves the question: why was he canonized? (Miracles
apparently aren't necessary for canonization in the Eleven Kingdoms;
we never hear of the late Bishop Istelyn performing any. I thought
that the Catholic Church required evidence of miracles to canonize
someone (in our universe, this is); can anyone knowledgable say
whether this is so?)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 16:50:24 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Information (was Bishop's Heir)

Mark Biggar writes
>As to the evolution of the whole spectrum of powers, you only need
>to evolve one power first: Telekinetic power on a very low energy
>level.  Then wishing hard enough and subconscious manipulation of
>genes gets you everything else.

One of the nice contributions of Jack Chalker's works is the clear
realization that 'magic' requires information.  Poof! you're a
frog...now where did I learn enough about the genetic structure of a
frog to turn you into a functional amphibian?

In this case, how does telekinesis, plus my subconscious wish for,
say, telepathy, allow me to subconsciously choose to change *that*
gene sequence from GGTAC to GTTAC?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 13:45:51 GMT
From: diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes
>Or are you saying that Warin is actually Deryni (my own
>theory--imagine his face! He and Jehana could start their own
>support group...)

No, Kelson examines Warin and determines that he is not Deryni.
Everyone are puzzled by this but files it under "yet more
unexplained facts". As far as I know, nothing more has been said
about this.

And then there is Bran Coris. He too seems to be a human with
"powers" although it seems he had been given them by that Deryni
king (I forget his name --- Wencit?).

In reply to Dani Zweig's:
>>By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems
>>fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as
>>opposed to 'human' powers.
>Sure. No one in this universe claims that Deryni and humans are
>different species; they interbreed! But there do seem to be
>qualitative differences between "Haldane-type" powers and
>"Deryni-type" powers. Haldane-type powers are set and triggered by
>rituals. They are comprised of a certain number of clearly-defined
>abilities with, from the moment of triggering, knowledge of their
>use when they are needed. Deryni-type powers arise spontaneously,
>like any normal talent, and require training in their use for any
>kind of real competence.

How about this:

Everyone has the potential for powers (of one kind or another).
Some may have a stronger potential than others, but everyone has
something.

Most people has some sort of build-in inhibition on using these
powers, but one racial group (the Deryni) lacks this inhibition.
With training, any deryni can build up his powers.

Ordinary humans can have their inhibitions removed by various
devious means discovered by different folks over the years and
embodied in different rituals.

One such is the Haldane power ritual, which not only removes the
inhibitions but also provides a sort of mental "imprint", a program
for using these powers. This enables the Haldane to use his powers
full-blown from the moment of assumption.

Another, similar, ritual had been found by Wencit, and was used by
him to "give" Bran Coris his powers (actually release them).  This
was perhaps not as sophisticated as the ritual developed by Camber
Himself. Perhaps all it did was to remove the inhibition and allow
Coris to train his powers naturally. Or perhaps it gave him some
instruction as well.

However, the inhibition can also vanish spontaneously, in part or in
whole, giving us the Warins and Haldane heirs and other non-deryni
"adepts" who clutter up the books and gives us all insomnia.

Hmmmmm??

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
Institute of Computer Science
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 19:27:22 GMT
From: richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?"

leonard@percival.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>... But it seems absurd to claim that a single gene can grant
>>telepathy, teleportation, mind control, fire-and-lightning, a
>>serious merasha allergy, and what have you.  ...
>
> inclined to believe that the Deryni gene is the result of an 'Act
> of God'

Folks, you are probably overlooking the simplest of explanations,
and that is even alluded to in Kurtz's books - we all have these
powers!  What makes the Deryni different is that this gene simply
allows them access to the powers (once properly trained).  Why try
to make a thing more complicated than it is.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 1987  13:23 EST (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: deryni inheritance

   Personally, I suspect that Katherine Kurtz simply doesn't have a
very thorough grounding in genetics.  After all, if you consider her
initial discription of deryni inheritance, you get a slowly
decreasing number of deryni.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 1987  13:27 EST (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: deryni vs. human power

   There is of course the line in the ancient Deryni priesting
ritual that goes (as close as I can recall without the book in front
of me), "We stand outside of time in a universe which is not ours."
Gives rise to some interesting possibilities, no?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Mar 87 0919-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #96
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 87 0919-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #96
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 10:17:01 GMT
From: kevinb@crash.CTS.COM (Kevin J. Belles)
Subject: Re: Warp 8+

MIQ@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET says:
>>I have a theory about why the Enterprise had to stay at Warp 8 or
>>below during the series. Since the series, we have found out that
>>the Enterprise has inertial dampers. Once you get above Warp 8, a
>>small variation in warp factor could force the dampers to make
>>such a large correction that the ship couldn't stand it. Does
>>anybody know for sure if this is the explanation?
>
>     The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just
>can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds.  Above warp 6,
>they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper
>limit without an immediate burn-out.

I hate to disagree with you, but in the ST episode involving Nomad
(V'ger Mk .5)Nomad 'improved' the engines until, as I think Scotty
put it, they were 'tearin'the whole ship apart'. Part of the
problem, I believe, was the stresses to the warp envelope caused by
it's deformation at speeds the ship wasn't designed to handle, and
the rest could either be the compensators spoken of above (unlikely,
IMHO), or the stress placed on the frame by the excess
pseudoacceleration could have been too much for (1) the gravity
compensators and (2) the stress capability of the ship. The obvious
weak spot is the nacelle struts, or perhaps the (designed to be
separable) strut between the main disk and the engineering fuselage.

Kevin J. Belles
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!kevinb
ARPA: crash!kevinb@{nosc, ucsd}
INET: kevinb@crash.CTS.COM
BIX:  kevinb

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 14:27:00 GMT
From: convex!bass@rutgers.edu
Subject: re: "origin of Saavik"

>`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to
>members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing
>to do with the sex of the addressee.  Anyone out there in the navy
>want to back me up on this?

Correct you are, Bill!  Officers in the Navy are called "Mister" no
matter what sex they are.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 16:58:00 GMT
From: friedman@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek 0: "The Cage"

Joel B Levin <levin@cc5.bbn.com> writes about the tape of "The Cage":
> As has been noted, the voice of the 'Keeper' was redubbed by a new
> actor for "Menagerie".  The voice heard on the black and white
> parts is quite different.  I think I like the new voice better,
> but if I hadn't seen "Menagerie" before, the original voice would
> not have ruined the episode for me.  I suppose that the original
> actor was not available for the additional 'Keeper' lines in
> "Menagerie," so they had the new one redo him.

For my part, I wish they had used the sound track from the
black-and-white "original", at least for the Keeper's voice,
throughout the tape.  It would have been a single, consistent voice.
The only thing I can guess is that perhaps the sound quality was too
low.

H. George Friedman, Jr.
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1304 West Springfield Avenue
Urbana, Illinois  61801
USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman
CSNET:  friedman@uiuc.csnet
ARPA:   friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 18:21:02 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Warp 8+

kevinb@crash.CTS.COM (Kevin J. Belles) says:
>>     The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just
>>can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds.  Above warp 6,
>>they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper
>>limit without an immediate burn-out.
>
>I hate to disagree with you, but in the ST episode involving Nomad
(V'ger Mk .5)Nomad 'improved' the engines until, as I think Scott
(...something got lost here at my site...)
>warp envelope caused by it's deformation at speeds the ship wasn't
>designed to handle, and the rest could either be the compensators
>spoken of above (unlikely, IMHO), or the stress placed on the frame
>by the excess pseudoacceleration could have been too much for (1)
>the gravity compensators and (2) the stress capability of the ship.
>The obvious weak spot is the nacelle struts, or perhaps the
>(designed to be separable) strut between the main disk and the
>engineering fuselage.

     *However,* when Nomad "improved" the engines, it made
modifications to allow them generate speeds much faster than warp
8-- they hit warp *11* before Kirk told the probe to reverse the
process, because the ship couldn't take the stress of that speed.
So, the structure & such wouldn't be any problem around warp 8 or
so, it's still the engines themselves.

     As a precedent for this, recall "The Paradise Syndrome."  Spock
had ordered Warp *9* to catch the asteroid in time-- the engines
were straining and sputtering the whole way, until they were finally
burned out.  There was never any talk of the structure being unable
to take the strain.

     Also, the engine limitation makes more sense from a logical,
engineering point of view (although I may be out of line trying to
apply logic to the gadgets in Star Trek :-).  If your engines can
deliver speeds up to warp N without burning out, the structure
should be designed to take speeds up to warp N + 1 or N + 2, to
provide a factor of safety.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 87 18:30:53 GMT
From: MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: Star Trek 0: "The Cage"

pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Starbuck) says:
>>(SPOILER, maybe) One question I always had when watching
>>"Menagerie" concerned the ending, where Pike is beamed down to
>>Talos IV and is seen on the viewscreen walking away with the girl.
>So spoil us... I for one want to know how that scene fit into "The
>Cage"

Recall the closing lines.

   Pike: "You'll give back her illusion of beauty?"

   Keeper: "Yes.  And more."

Pike sees first that Vina (sp?) has her beauty back, and then
watches her go back into the cave with a duplicate of himself.  The
Pike-illusion was the "And more" that the Keeper was talking about.
In "The Menagerie," they used this footage *after* the crippled Pike
had beamed down, to show that he was reunited with her, and had his
own illusion to live with.  As a result, when the Keeper said "And
more" in "The Menagerie," it seemed out of context.

     Trivial aside: The re-dubbed voice of the Keeper in "The
Menagerie" was provided by Malachi Throne, who played Commodore
Mendez in the same episode.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 87 19:12:21 GMT
From: valid!jao@rutgers.edu (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: Warp 8+

>     The explanation I generally heard is that the engines just
>can't take the stress of providing warp 8+ speeds.  Above warp 6,
>they're straining and heating a lot; warp 8 is probably the upper
>limit without an immediate burn-out.

I don't remember its name, but in the episode where the Enterprise
steals the Romulan's new cloaking device (with some hanky-panky
between Spock and beautiful Romulan commander) Kirk orders Warp 9,
and the Enterprise responds with no problem.  I saw this eposide
last night.  I don't think that they were very consistant with the
stress of various warp speeds.

John Oswalt
amdcad!amd!pesnta!valid!jao

------------------------------

From: ds68#@andrew.cmu.edu (David Mark Svoboda)
Subject: Re: Visit to a Weird Planet..........Help Needed
Date: 14 Feb 87 19:45:16 GMT

Here's a few more:

Charlie X
  I wanna stay....stay...stay...stay.......

The Squire of Gothos
  How fallible of me
  You will hang until you are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!

Amok Time
  It has to do with Vulcan biology.
  In a pig's eye. (How could anyone not mention that?)

A Private LIttle War
  He probably knows you were holding his hand.

This side of Paradise
  Captain, striking an officer is a court-martial offense.

A Piece of the Action
   Sit quiet, or you'll be wearin'...concrete galoshes!

Patterns of Force
   You would have made a good Nazi, Captain.
   All right, gentlemen, we want a picture here- One and Two and Three
(pinch!)

By Any Other Name
   Oh, I see. You are trying to seduce me.
    I feel no jealousy whatsoever / Checkmate.

I, Mudd
    Harcourt Fenton Mudd, you good-for-nothing.../ Shut up! /
thing...thing...thing..

The Apple
    Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you? / Exactly
17,912,251 credits.

 A Taste of Armageddon
   Excuse me, but there is a multi-legged creature crawling on your
shoulder.

Journey to Babel
   A teddy bear?!

Dave
ds68@@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 87 00:34 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: re: "origin of Saavik"

>`Mister' is a genderless address used in the Navy to refer to
>members below a certain rank. (which one, I forget) It has nothing
>to do with the sex of the addressee.  Anyone out there in the navy
>want to back me up on this?

I'm not in the navy, but my copy of ``Naval Customs, Traditions, and
Usage" (Third edition, US Naval Institute, 1939, p 336) says the
following:

(3) Navy
    In the Navy officers with the rank of commander and above in
    both line and staff are addressed socially by their titles,
    whereas those with the rank of lieutnant commander and below
    are addressed as ``mister.''  Any officer in command of a ship,
    whatever its size or class, while exercising such command is
    addressed as ``captain.''  In speaking to or introducing
    captains of the Navy, it is customary to add after the name,
    ``of the Navy,'' in order to indicate that the officer belongs
    to the Navy and not to the Army, Marine Corps, or National
    Guard.  The reason for this practice is that the grade of
    captain in the Navy corresponds to our grade of colonel in the
    Army.

I hope that this is of some help

Richard Welty
welty@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Mar 87 11:30:32 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@cc-washington.bbn.com>
Subject: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek

Folks,

   Re "Mister" Saavik in ST, Bill was pretty close to correct.  The
naval address "Mister" may be used for any officer (Bill just didn't
quote 'officer').  For those at or above the rank of Lieutenant
Commander the rank is normally used, with a Lt.Cdr. being called
"Commander".  "Mister is also used for warrant officers and is
occasionally used (often sarcastically) in addressing enlisted
personnel.  Disclaimer here: "Ma'am" *is* more commonly used when
addressing a female officer.

    Could this have been a slip of the tongue that was left in?  Or
maybe a kind of indirect allusion to more "equality" of the sexes in
the ST future?

Ron S. (Retired navy enlisted)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Mar 87 15:03:27 EST
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #49

   Here, in no particular order, are my answers to some of the
questions recently posed.

1.  WARP 8+: According to "The Making of STAR TREK", the deflector
screens were the limiting factor.  They helped to stabilize the hull
as well as clearingaway micrometeorites and space junk.  Above W8,
they couldn't cope.

2.  USN Terminology: According to RADM Dan Gallery (author of some
excellent humor, and captor -by boarding!- of U 505), "Mister" is
used only to candidates for commmission (cadets or midshipmen) and
the first 3 commissioned ranks (ensign/2LT, Lieutenant(jr
grade)/1LT, and Lieutenant(sr grade)/CPT).  It might rarely be used
to a Lieutenant Commander(= Major), but only by an irate superior.

Dave Wegener

------------------------------

Date: Thu 19 Mar 87 16:11:19-CST
From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Universal translators and Whalespeak (Star Trek)

To all you ST-folks, here's a question I would be willing (and
eager) to accept speculation on:

    In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their
magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing? Spock
rather astutely remarks that while they could mimic a whale's song,
it would be jibberish; i.e. they couldn't mimic the *language*. If
the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud
("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*, surely
it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish? whalese?).

    I'm a linguistics grad student, by the by, and the silly device
disgusts me as surely as faster-than-light-travel makes most
physicists apoplectic, but given a universal translator as a
premise, anybody got any speculations?

regards,

bill

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 00:52:44 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.s1.gov (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Universal translators and Whalespeak (Star Trek)

From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
>    In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their
>magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing?

Good heavens, man, it's a _plot device_, it doesn't obey any logical
rules.  Might as well ask why they used the transporter so much,
when it always broke down at such inopportune moments.

>... If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud
>("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*,
>surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish?
>whalese?).

Whelsh.  The language of Whales is Whelsh.  And if you don't believe
me, just remember that Blemish is the official language of Felgium.
:-) :-)

>    I'm a linguistics grad student, by the by, and the silly device
>disgusts me as surely as faster-than-light-travel makes most
>physicists apoplectic,

Not at all.  We just use an antigravity device to suspend our
disbelief.

>but given a universal translator as a premise, anybody got any
>speculations?

Oh, dozens.  Lessee, the aliens were listening for underwater songs,
and nobody could find a waterproof translator.  Or translators
really work by telepathy, and the alien probe had nothing but
computers on board.  Or the aliens were really looking for a jam
session (remember, it's whale_song_) and the translator just didn't
have that old humpbacked rhythm.  And so on....

Jordin Kare
jtk@mordor.UUCP
jtk@mordor.s1.gov

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 87 00:02:50 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Universal translators and Whalespeak (Star Trek)

In Metapmorphoses, Spock had to adjust the translater so that it
could speak to the cloud.  It seems that Spock is the only person
(other than Scotty) in the entire Federation that can tinker with
something and come up with something else that will work.  So,
without Spock, nobody could hack the translater to get it to work on
water-breathers.  Alternatively, perhaps the Universal Translator
has a range limit, and the range limit happens to be within the
disruption field of the whaleship (Klingonese, Romulan, Tholian,
etc., can be translated outside the range of the UT because the
library computer already knows these languages, and doesn't have to
use the UT).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Mar 87 0941-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #97
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 87 0941-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #97
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:

                Books - DeCamp & Garrett (4 msgs) &
                        Hodgell (2 msgs) & Kellogg &
                        L'Engle (2 msgs) & Martin (2 msgs) &
                        May

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 01:19:49 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #78

From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
>     There are two really excellent books by L. Sprague DeCamp,
>titled "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents".  The hero,
>Harold Shea, is a psychologist.  In testing one of his boss's
>theories, Harold winds up in the universe of Norse mythology-- just
>in time for Ragnarok.  In the second half of the book, both he and
>his boss wind up in Spenser's "Faerie Queen".  Finally (hmm... too
>many halves!) the action shifts to the universe of "Orlando
>Furioso", where Harold has to rescue the one-and-only that he
>married in mid-book.  "Wall of Serpents" takes Harold, his firends,
>and an unfortunate member of New York's Finest into the Finnish
>"Kalevala"(?), and thence into Celtic myth.
>     These might be a bit hard to find, I think they will be worth
>the effort.  Not only do you get good stories, but you also get a
>broad survey of various mythologies for much less than the price of
>enrolling in Comp. Lit. 210.

Compleat Enchanter is easy to find; it has been reprinted many
times.  On the other hand, Wall of Serpents is almost impossible to
find.  I believe that there was only one edition; certainly no more
than two.  My local "Used and Rare Books" store would charge ~$50
for a copy, if it had one.  Apparantly the book is trapped in some
legal limbo.  I would appreciate it if anyone could provide more
precise information.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf%lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu@WISCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 16 MAR 87 13:51-EST
From: HOGENCAM%WILLIAMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: gandalara cycle warning and question

1. warning - The Gandalara Cycle II, containing The Well of
Darkness, The Search for Ka, and Return to Eddarta, has the last two
novels in reverse order.  The front cover gives the titles in the
above order, which is correct, an inside page reverses the last two
(search and return) and the order in the book is wrong.  For those
who like to read their series in order this is aggravating.  I'm
sending this to spare others the aggravation if it isn't too late.

2. comment - (minor spoiler) I got The Gandalara Cycle I and II on
an impulse and don't regret it.  Each cycle contains 3 novels, all 6
dealing with a male and a female and their large (bigger than
tigers) cat/companions, and their destiny.  Though not perfect, it's
a good fantasy series.  The books are by Randall Garrett and Vicki
Ann Heydron.  She claims a broad outline and most of the first book
was done before RG got too ill to work on it.  There is a 7th and in
theory last book in the series due out in summer of 86 according to
the back page.  Has anyone seen it?  Does it exist?

Angie Hogencamp
bitnet : hogencamp@williams

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 16:16:00 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Gandalara VII

The final book in the Gandalara Cycle is indeed out in paperback.
It is called The River Wall.  I bought it in WaldenBooks late last
year.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 17:33:22 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Gandalara VII  ****((( SPOILER (?) )))****

> The final book in the Gandalara Cycle is indeed out in paperback.
> It is called The River Wall.  I bought it in WaldenBooks late last
> year.

Possible spoiler follows, if you haven't read it or the cycle
itself.

I read the whole cycle, the first six all at once, (all in order, of
course- seems like I don't get to often enough 8-) ), and eagerly
awaited the seventh.

Throughout the series, I loved the concept, and the characters
themselves were fascinating- fairly complex individuals ( pairs,
with the Sha'um? ) who interact in a distinctive manner-

I don't want to go to the hassle of a critical analysis here, as #1
I don't have them with me; #2 I don't care to picky-picky dissect a
book all the time 8-) #3 I don't feel like it- so suffer!  :) )

BUT: I thought the first six held together well, though the concept
WAS definitely limited ( how many bad guys can 1 guy meet and take
care of? Rambo knows, and thank Ghu, he isn't here...)  by the size
of the world.

There was plenty of rom for the series, though, and in fact the size
was almost perfect- not a hurried blur of plot, and not a dragging
dead one either.

THEN: Came the wait for #7- not too long, incredibly enough.  The
publisher must have been sick and did it by accident 8-).

And #7 was great- for a while.  By the time we find out that
Gandalara is actually a seafloor (Mediterranean, to be exact), this
is obvious- something not found earlier: an obvious conclusion which
is drawn-out.

Finally, the ending itself was SO limited- whap, the thing is over.
Reminds me of Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ in that
respect.

It needed about 50 more coherent pages, and about 50 existing pages
to be more organized.

I dunno, maybe it's just me...probably.....

I did and do like the series, however! Even the 7th book is fairly
decent- it's just that 1-6 are better.  Maybe AUTHORS get tired
??!!???!!! (Nah, can't be! 0-) )

anyone have any more specific comments- I'm feeling generally
nonspecialized today....

Eric Carpenter
ucdavis!deneb!ccs006

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 87 00:44:37 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gandalara VII

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>> The final book in the Gandalara Cycle is indeed out in paperback.
>> It is called The River Wall.  I bought it in WaldenBooks late
>> last year.
>I did and do like the series, however! Even the 7th book is fairly
>decent- it's just that 1-6 are better.  Maybe AUTHORS get tired
>??!!???!!! (Nah, can't be! 0-) )

This is the series by Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron (sp?),
right?  I believe Mr. Garrett either died or (excuse the
irreverence) became a vegetable shortly after the first or second
book of the series was finished.  As I understand it, they two had
plotted the entire series together, but it was left up to Ms.
Heydron (who had recently married Mr. Garrett) to finish writing the
books.  I imagine, after all she'd been through, she would have
found this a difficult, and tiring, task.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87  10:50:11 EST
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Find me a good series, please!! (or whatever it is)

Randolph@Sun.UUCP mentioned a book by PC Hodgell entitled "Dark of
the Moon".  Would that be any relation to the play of the same name
that I was in a few years back? It was set in the Smoky Mountains of
the Carolinas, and involved witches, sorcerers, and lots of spooky
stuff.

Chip Olson
Castell@UMass

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 23:39:02 GMT
From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: PC Hodgell: "Dark of the Moon"

castell@UMass.BITNET writes:
>Randolph@Sun.UUCP mentioned a book by PC Hodgell entitled "Dark of
>the Moon".  Would that be any relation to the play of the same name
>that I was in a few years back? It was set in the Smoky Mountains
>of the Carolinas, and involved witches, sorcerers, and lots of
>spooky stuff.

Probably not.  I believe that "Dark of the Moon" is a sequel to
"Godstalk", an earlier fantasy by Hodgell that concerned a haunted
city.  "Godstalk" is an evocative book, filled with nice imagery,
but not in all very well told.  I haven't yet read "Dark of the
Moon", so I can't comment on that book's merits.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  srt@ucla
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 16 MAR 87 13:45-EST
From: HOGENCAM%WILLIAMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Book Reaction - Lear's Daughters

                           Book Reaction

                       The Wave and the Flame
                     Part 1 of Lear's Daughters
                                 &
                           Reign of Fire
                     Part 2 of Lear's Daughters
                     both by M. Bradley Kellogg
                       with William B. Rossow
                    Signet  both published 1986

As I am not an analytical reader, I don't do book reviews, but I can
react.  I enjoyed these two books.  [keep in mind I like the fantasy
end of sf most (McCaffrey, Kurtz, Bradley, Clayton, Cherryh,
Mcintyre, Mckillip etc) but still like some science fiction].

Human beings, following the advice of a probe indicating mineral
wealth and hot dry climate, (almost crash) land on a planet, finding
themselves in the midst of what looks like an ice age.  There are
many strange meterologic events/changes that stump them and their
computer.

There are humanoids on the planet who have developed an existence
that allows survival of the awesome weather changes.  The locals
believe all weather is part of a battle between two goddesses.  The
humans, prefer believing it is weather, but find it inexplicable by
any of their models.

There is quite a bit of attention paid to the personalities of the
humans and the locals, and their internal motives.  There is a
seesaw effect of pushing the reader to thinking the natives might be
right, and later that the humans might be right.  There are humans
who learn to love the natives for what they are, and humans bent on
exploitation of mineral wealth, and other humans between the
extremes.

I like the two books.  There is no indication anywhere that there
are sequels and the ending could be sufficient as is, but doesn't
preclude a third book.

Angie Hogencamp
hogencamp@williams (bitnet addr)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 18:37:52 PST (Saturday)
Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle
From: Tallan.osbunorth.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

> Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather
> whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by
> Madeleine L'Engle?

I've always considered this the first science fiction book I ever
read, even though at the time I didn't know about SF as a category
of literature.  I read it in 1963 and I still remember the sense of
amazement and wonder I felt when I finished it.  The book was so
completely unlike anything I had read before.  I give the book a
large amount of credit for having turned me into a reader.

Madeleine L'Engle made an appearance at The Other Change of Hobbit,
in Berkeley, a couple of weeks ago, and I went to see her.  One
thing she said that I found interesting, and a bit ironic, was that
"A Wrinkle In Time" was initially rejected by almost every publisher
of children's books in the country.  They thought that no child
could possibly understand it.  The publisher that finally took it
was astounded when the book took off the way it did.  My 1963
edition (the year after its publication) is a 6th printing, and my
sister's 1967 copy is a 20th printing.  I have no idea how many
printings it's gone though now.  For all our sakes, I'm glad she
persevered in getting the book published.

Michael Tallan
Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 00:37:19 GMT
From: wheaton!cculver@rutgers.edu (Calvin Culver)
Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle

From: Tallan.osbunorth.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
> Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather
> whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by
> Madeleine L'Engle?

Also one of my favorite stories when I was young (and not bad yet
even now!).  Madeleine continues to write, and has published at
least one book of poetry as well as other childrens' books.  Her
latest (title escapes me right now) involves two children who travel
back in time, finding themselves in the midst of Old Testament
history.  It's in the classic L'Engle style, very well written.  "A
Wrinkle in Time" will always be my sentimental favorite, however.
It was a real thrill to get to hear her speak a few months back; I
even got her to autograph the trilogy for me.

calvin culver

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 22:35:03 GMT
From: loral!ian@rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan)
Subject: Re: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>This book is a collection of stories about a man who aquires a
>mobile space-based biowarfare laboratory, and what he does with it.
  [ text deleted... ]
>It is hard to put my finger on just why I like this book so much.
>I suspect it is because in some ways the protagonist, Haviland Tuf,
>is a sort of Lt. Columbo analog.
  [ more text deleted... ]
>
>I recommend the book highly.

   One reason I like George R.R. Martin is because he is such a good
Mawriter (in contrast, some authors are just have a good story).
Martin has also written "Fever Dream", which is considered by some
his best book.  For those who grew up in the Bay Area "The
Armageddon Rag" is a pretty good book also.  So far the only book by
Martin (or perhaps I should say with Martin content) that I did not
like is his book "Aces", which I think was recently reviewed by Mark
Leeper.

Ian Kaplan
USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!loral!ian
ARPA:   sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD
USPS:   8401 Aero Dr. San Diego, CA 92123

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 18:33:55 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin

ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes:
>   One reason I like George R.R. Martin is because he is such a
>good writer (in contrast, some authors are just have a good story).

I'll agree here.  He's not as well known as some some writers, but
better than many of the bigger names, and more consistent.  I think
his best work is the terribly underrated "Dying of the Light."

I also think his shared world anthology, Wild Cards (of which two
volumes are out -- the first one was really quite good, and the
second is in my in-box).

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 87 06:29:25 GMT
From: reed!mirth@rutgers.edu (The Reedmage)
Subject: Julian May, was Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>I liked Julian May's Saga of Pliocene Exile. Horrible title for the
>series, I thought, but the books were great fun.
>
>    The Many Colored Land
>    The Golden Torc
>    The Unborn King
>    The Adversary

Well, I'll agree that they were fun -- except for one thing.  (This
grates on me no matter where it happens: comic books, science
fiction, fantasy, gaming, anywhere that you find characters that are
a bit more powerful than the norm).

I really despise stories in which the characters get exponentially
or even linearly more powerful (cf Jim Starlin's Warlock and
Dreadstar, any Monty Haul [A]D&D game, Donaldson's books [I may be
wrong on this one; haven't read them for a while and didn't like 'em
when I did], etc).  Why should

slight *SPOILER* follows

Group Green just *happen* to hold the several most powerful psionic
people ever, all of whom are discontent and want to go to the
Pleistocene (or is that Pliocene)?  These people, in the course of a
mere :-) four huge books, become godlike.  No, they become gods.
Sorry, no savvy.  I don't identify with people who can do anything.

*END SPOILER*

The whole thing read like May had let it get out of control.  The
quality of the series sank in direct proportion to the rise in power
level.  So I would recommend the first book very highly, the second
book somewhat, and the last two if you really need to know how it
ends, which I didn't partic- ularly (but I did read them).

This is, of course, my opinion which I formed all by myself and it
is not necessarily right, good, or true.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Mar 87 1009-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #98
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 87 1009-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #98
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - Dating SF Books (12 msgs) &
                            Stardrives (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 13:25:15 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Another Trivia question

I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to me
that it is posible to roughly date a book by the sort of assumptions
it makes about other planets in the solar system, the most obvious
of these is the assumption that Venus/Mars/The Moon is habitable by
human beings without special gear. Does anybody have any other
pointers to the age of a book other than looking inside the front
cover? Don't e-mail any answers because I'm going on holiday soon
and my file space is getting a little cramped.

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 16:33:08 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to me
>that it is possible to roughly date a book by the sort of
>assumptions it makes about other planets in the solar system, the
>most obvious of these is the assumption that Venus/Mars/The Moon is
>habitable by human beings without special gear. Does anybody have
>any other pointers to the age of a book other than looking inside
>the front cover? Don't e-mail any answers because I'm going on
>holiday soon and my file space is getting a little cramped.

 Computers with Vacuum Tubes.
 Ether (like in space, not anesthetics)
 Radio as the height of communication technology
 General ignorance of relativity
 'Atomic' rockets lifting off from the ground

Any more?

Bill Kaufman
lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 21:46:21 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to me
>that it is possible to roughly date a book by the sort of
>assumptions it makes about other planets in the solar system, the
>most obvious of these is the assumption that Venus/Mars/The Moon is
>habitable by human beings without special gear. Does anybody have
>any other pointers to the age of a book other than looking inside
>the front cover? Don't e-mail any answers because I'm going on
>holiday soon and my file space is getting a little cramped.

The assumptions made by the author are not an infallible method of
dating stories because new discoveries did not always get a lot of
publicity outside Astronomical circles.  Also some authors do not
give up cherished beliefs despite the new discoveries.  The notion
of Venus being a water world was demolished some time in the 40's or
50's but there were a number of stories written later which used
that idea.

However, a very good indication for dating stories is whether
Mercury always shows the same side to the Sun or not.  When it
discovered in 1965 that Mercury does not show the same face, it
received much publicity.

Canals on Mars started to disappear about the the time of Mariner 4
(early 60's) but did not really bite the dust until Mariner 9
(1971).

I'm sure that the Voyagers have caused similar breaks (for example
the number of moons Saturn has) but there just aren't that many
stories written about Saturn.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 22:47:11 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

In older SF books characters in free fall make heavy use of magnets;
characters in modern SF are into velcro.  Older SF shows Mercury as
tide locked (with a sun side and a dark side).  Any book making
mention of the names of features on the far side of the moon or the
smaller planetary moons discovered by Voyager can be dated.  There
is an old Arthur C. Clarke book (The Sands of Mars?) in which an
engineer whips out a slide rule to calculate how long it would take
a spilled cup of coffee to hit the ground.  In one of the early
Heinlein juveniles (Starman Jones) a good part of the plot hinges on
finding the books of binary to decimal numeric translation tables
needed to feed data into the ship's computer.  William Shiras'
wonderful short story "In Hiding" concerns a little boy super genius
who, among other things, does a breeding experiment with his
grandmothers pet cats, producing Persians with Siamese markings.
The breed came into existence about 15 years ago and is called a
Himalayan.  Also a dead give away is that any book with a woman for
a main character or showing women in important roles was probably
written since 1970.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 05:34:23 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: more ways to date sf (was Re: Another Trivia question)

 Space Cadets / Space Patrol organizations
 blissful ignorance of special relativity (as distinguished from a
    tacit admission that something is being glossed over)
 unconscious assumption that new technology will not significantly
    change societal mores (Anybody here read Bellamy's "Looking
    Backward"?)
 a scientist character who explains his (never "her") inventions
    to his admiring sidekicks who exist so that such explanations
    can be given
 token female scientist working with above
 assumption that new technology is always good in its effects

Of course, there are counter-examples of all of these.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 20:04:50 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

Certain "technologies" go with certain periods: Slide rules.
Radium.  (Radium is *very* good.  In Mark Twain's 1898 (?) story
"Sold to Satan" it is revealed that the luminescence of the firefly
is caused by a single Radium electron!).  Analogue computers.

The further back you go the more handwaving you can find in
'scientific' explanations.

Carole Ashmore probably pointed to the richest ore, though:
attitudes, mores, preconceptions.  The difference between the ends
of any decade's "spectrum" is generally laughably small by the
standards of later years.  Much of the most casually racist work was
written by writers who were definitely anti-racist.  One of the main
themes of Wylie's "The Disappearance" is the senselessness of the
role of women in the America of 1950 -- and today much of it is
offensive to women.  For many writers today, assumption seems to be
that a thousand years from now the free-market vs.  control
controversy will still be as pressing as, oh, the admissibility of
the Aryan heresy.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 01:02:08 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

How about:

 Mercury being a one-face planet.  (It's tidally locked, but the
    resonance is 3:2, not 1:1, as believed until very recently.)
 Computers being large and bulky.  You can really tell the stuff
    written before pocket calculators.  (After playing with an HP
    28C, I feel safe in predicting that it will become common for
    calculators to do symbolic math up to the integration level.
 Does anyone else have comments?)

Colin Plumb
watmath!watnot!ccplumb

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 22:05:30 GMT
From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

   What I consider interesting is not that past ignorance of the
solar system leads to what are incongruities today, but how past
speculations on technology of the future can be dated and dead
wrong.  I read a short story about a spaceship exploring Mercury
where the crew figured out their orbit using pencil and paper.  I
wish I could remember which story that was!  Another example that
springs to mind is the Buck Rogers serials, where they have ray guns
and spaceships, but have to look out the porthole to see enemy ships
(nobody thought of radar!).

Hobie Orris
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4 | decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 19:13:54 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

I read a book ages ago, I think by E.E "Doc" Smith, and I cannot
remember the title, I am sorry to say. It did, however, have an
interesting "first contact" situation, when the Earthmen were
admiring the Aliens' mathematical and engineering skills. The Aliens
were interested in return, and were shown a slide rule. "Oh yes," it
declares in haughty oh-my-God-how-primitive sort of tones, "We have
slide rules too, but they are MUCH more powerful than yours..."

Also,
 Lack of computers at all
 Metallic looking humanoid robots with tinny voices ( cf Asimov )

Sean Ellis
ellis @ sage

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 18:13:02 GMT
From: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

Two more things that came to mind:

1) It strikes me as somewhat old-fashioned if a "space-based" sf
story is set in our solar system at all.  More recent stuff seems to
be a galaxy or so away.

2) In early sf, all life forms are carbon based (and somewhat human
metabolically.)  There seems to be a general progression from carbon
based/humanoid thru carbon based/obviously nonhuman to carbon based/
somewhat metabolically nonhuman (e.g. can live in some other type of
atmosphere) all the way to non carbon based (e.g. silicon based or
even sentient machine in the most extreme form)

Miriam Nadel

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 20:22:11 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C)
Subject: Accurate but trivial predictions (was Re: Another Trivia
Subject: question)

In "Citizen of the Galaxy", Heinlein has large bulky computers like
many of the books of that era (late 50's).  However in one scene, he
has the main character pull out a pocket calculator to add up the
stock voting.  Predicting small calculating devices was no great
feat (I believe Asimov had done so previously) but he actually used
the words "pocket calculator".

Along the same vein, a story (I forget the name) by Asimov written
in the early 50's had a digital clock with red luminescent numbers.
The only difference from modern LED's (no, he didn't call them
LED's) was that the clock had a metal face.

When I reread these stories a few years back, I almost didn't catch
them because they would not be remarkable in a book written in the
80's.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 17:22:54 GMT
From: amdahl!krs@rutgers.edu (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Looking Backward (was Re: more ways to date sf)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>unconscious assumption that new technology will not significantly
>change societal mores (Anybody here read Bellamy's "Looking
>Backward"?)

Uhh, yes.  (Did a term paper on it for a Poli-Sci class back in my
dark ages.)  The only significant technological advancement that I
remember from Looking Backward was his pneumatic radio.  Intriguing
piece of speculation, that.  It was a set of pipes like they use at
Best Products and drive-up tellers, but routed throughout an entire
city!  Each house would have (three or four of?) them coming in like
a cable feed and a selector so the family could listen to live music
performances, piped in.

The main character asks his hosts if they have a piano ("Do you play
the piano for each other?"), as this was *major* home entertainment
in the late 1800s.  The answer is a description of the pipe system
and that people don't play anymore; the finest professionals are
available at home, so why bother with second-rate amateurs?  I must
admit this annoyed me, musician that I am, but it was consistent
with his story and message.

Looking Backward is a 100 year leap into the future postulated by a
Socialist/Communist - classic utopian speculation of, I believe,
1897 (the full title is "Looking Backward, 1997 to 1897" (I *think*
I've got the dates right), by Edward Bellamy).

Thanks for reminding me of this, Shoshanna!

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com
408-746-6047

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 08:34:00 CST
From: CCCRAIG%UMCVMB.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Craig Pepmiller)
Subject: More Stardrives

Three types of drives I haven't seen mentioned so far:

  Black hole hopping: Drop into a black hole and appear; elsewhere
     in space, around another black hole, or out of a 'white hole'.
     Example might be 'The Black Hole' movie (I never got around to
     reading the book to find out what actually happened to them.)
  Parallel Universe travel: Instead of physically moving, modify the
     reality around you to the reality of where you want to go.  It
     becomes questionable whether you have traveled or created or
     dreamed yourself there.  Example would be the Amber series and
     recent discussion.
  Magnetic/Gravity drives: Push against fields rather than matter.
     Has been used quite a bit but I can't seem to think of an
     example right now.

One note on teleportation drives: Lest someone claim it as another
category, 'star gates' probably fit under teleportation.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 20:49 EDT
From: SJONES%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Stardrives... (specifically Dickson, Phase-shifting)

    In response to <ellis@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)>
Brandon Allbery wrote the following:

>You forgot a few:
>(3) Dickson's ``phase-shift'' drive (actually, this is a more
>    ``serious'' version of the Improbability Drive...)

    I've read the books of the Childe Cycle that are out to date,
and as a layman (nothing more than a high school physics course) it
seemed to make sense. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle has got to
be good for something, right? I mean, the way G.D. describes it in
_Necromancer_ it seems like a logical extension of the principal.
Maybe that's why it can't be - it's too obvious...

    I'd appreciate any replies from the more technically proficient
readers out there.

Steve Jones
BITNET:  sjones@umass
CSNET:   sjones%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP:    ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!sjones
INTERNET:sjones%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu:
USSnail: box 753; Hampshire College; Amherst, MA  01002

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 01:27:47 GMT
From: faline!purtill@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Star-drives

Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM> writes:
>Relativity is a "problem" with /any/ form of faster-than-light
>travel.  If relativity is true (and all the evidence says it is)
>then /any/ form of FTL violates causality exactly as much as time
>travel does.

This is not quite true.  FTL only violates causality if it can be
done in any frame of reference.  If you can only travel FTL with
respect to a given, fixed frame of reference, then you're OK.

Ah-ha, you say, but that violates one of the postulates of
relativity.  True, but the *postulates* of relativity have never
been tested, only the predictions.  In other words, if FTL is
possible, relativity is wrong in the same way the Newtonian
mechanics is wrong, ie. it's good only in certain domains.  (In the
case of Newtonian mechanics, it's valid if v << c and there are no
large gravitational forces about.)  This is certainly not out of the
question.

Mark
Purtill at Multics.Mit.Edu (aka Mit-Multics.edu)
UUCP: ...!bellcore!purtill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Mar 87 1021-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 87 1021-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Mar 1987      Volume 12 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brust (5 msgs) & Eddings &
                         Holland & LeGuin (4 msgs) &
                         Thieve's World (2 msgs) &
                         A Request & Heart of the Comet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 18:18:11 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla

Shoshanna Green    (sgreen@cs.ucla.edu)  writes:
>"Jhereg" was inoffensive but not at all what I had been hoping for.
>"Yendi" was better, but ...  With "Teckla" I started feeling that
>these were real people in a real situation

There were a number of people who felt as you did.  The widespread
disappointment was from those (including myself) who felt that

Yes, Jhereg is cotton candy, but it is Very Good cotton candy.

Teckla is deeper, more serious...but the author isn't that good at
it yet.  The revolutionaries seem to be spouting sixtiesish dogma in
a pseudo-medieval society.  The author is forced to invoke a
spiritus ex machina to save his plot.  The action is demoted from an
integral part of the story to an excuse for the not-very-profound
philosophising.  The main problem is probably one of miscasting.
SKZB is trying to get serious with characters rather firmly
type-cast for comedy.

>(I'm still confused by the relationship between "Draghearans" (sp?
>haven't got the books here in my office) and "Easterners" (==
>humans?)

Brokedown Palace is *not* one of the Jhereg series, but internal
evidence (including the reference in Teckla to 'fairies') suggests
that it is a good source of insights into how Easterners view the
'fairies'.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 21:29:44 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>"Jhereg" was inoffensive but not at all what I had been hoping for.

Yeah, that was my impression too. I didn't intend to read any more
of the series after I read Jhereg.

Then I read all the postings here about Teckla. It sounded quite a
bit better (despite all the complaints), so I decided to continue. I
figured I should probably read Yendi, too, just so I didn't miss
anything.  Oddly enough, though, I had gathered from people's
postings that I probably *would* like Teckla. Maybe because I'd
already been a bit disappointed with Jhereg.

I agree, Teckla I enjoyed quite a bit better than the other two.

> Are there any other people out there who share my feelings?

Well, one anyway.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 17:22:57 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla

>The point of this? I'm interested by the fact that it was the book
>which SKZB fans seemed to like least that hooked me. Are there any
>other people out there who share my feelings?

Uh, SOME fans of SKZB were disappointed.  Other fans, who shall
remain nameless, think Teckla was the best book he's put out to
date.  So, yes, there are people who share your feelings.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 04:16:27 GMT
From: trent@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla

The important thing to note here is that Teckla, however good or bad
it is relative to Jhereg and Yendi, is noticeably *different* from
the other two. As a series gathers a large following, a lot of
people come to expect a certain kind of book in the series. Many
(though not all) will be expecting this certain quality when they
buy a sequel, and many will be disappointed.

I, personally, think that the political element of Teckla detracted
from the sheer fun/energy I had come to expect from the series. It
had some elements that the other books were missing, however. I
think that if I had read Teckla first (or, rather, if the first book
had been Teckla-like) I would have been disappointed in the other 2
books.

It's all a matter of what you're expecting. Now that some time has
passed, I've come to believe that Teckla is a step in the right
direction for the series. I had been worried that the series was
going to stagnate. I still think, however, that Brust is much more
skillful at characterization and storytelling than at portraying
politics. I think he would do well to either improve his skill at
the latter, or stick to the former. Confusing enough?

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 17:22:11 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla <SPOILERS re Brokedown Palace>

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
> Brokedown Palace is *not* one of the Jhereg series, but internal
> evidence (including the reference in Teckla to 'fairies') suggests
> that it is a good source of insights into how Easterners view the
> 'fairies'.

According to remarks SKZB made at Ad Astra last year during a
question/answer session after a panel, the "Faerie" of Brokedown
Palace IS the Dragaeran Empire.  I don't have the book in front of
me at the moment, and the character's name escapes me, but SKZB said
that the baby refered to at the very end of Brokedown Palace is in
fact Cawti.  I'm not sure this is inferrable from the book.  It
didn't occur to me on first reading, and I haven't reread Brokedown
Palace in light of the above information.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
phone: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211
ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA
         kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 01:17:35 GMT
From: hpindda!jeo@rutgers.edu (Eric Okholm)
Subject: Re: The Belgariad

>I am a big fan of the Belgariad and I am looking forward to the new
>series by David Eddings.  It seems that everybody loves that book.
>I'd really look forward to hearing from anybody who really enjoyed
>the book and would like to talk about some of the things that are
>left unexplained in it.  I would also be more than happy to hear
>anything else about when the new series is coming out.

It is my favorite too.  Our bookstore "in the know" says that his
book will be out in April.  I am not sure that it is a series
continuation, but I sure hope so.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 19:33:27 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin (now kudos to George)

Thank you George Robbins! Now I know why I haven't been able to find
any more SF by Cecilia Holland, and I've been looking and looking. I
really enjoyed FLOATING WORLDS. Do you think she may write more SF?
Any other of her books you know the titles of?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 87 15:54:54 CST
From: Jeff Myers <myers@unix.macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: article for sf lovers

> I wish to strongly echo the above remarks.  _The_Dispossessed_
> seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a
> political essay (some would say propaganda).  Unlike Rand, LeGuin
> has at least the merciful virtue of relative brevity.  _TD_ is
> undoubtedly her _least_ representative work to date.

I wish to strongly object to the above remarks.  Comparing Ayn Rand
to Ursula Kroeber LeGuin is like comparing Ronald Reagan to Paul
Newman.  First, there is no comparison talentwise in both pairings.
Second, Rand and Reagan are much more concerned with their political
agendas than their artistic ones.

One of the nice things about LeGuin is that she is the daughter of
one of the most famous and respected American anthropologists of
this century (or any century).  She is able to write about more than
one topic, using more than one style, and give us more than one
viewpoint.  In a sense, LeGuin has NO representative work...she's
very talented and very eclectic.

I very much doubt that she was plugging some political agenda with
_The_Dispossessed_.  I think that she was interested in showing that
it is possible to conceive of a rationally constructed and
believable egalitarian society -- she uses her anthropology
background to expand the realm of fantasy/sf, not to give us more
BEM novels, in the finest tradition of RAH and
_Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_.

Jeff Myers

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 09:38:39 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin
From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

>I wish to strongly echo the above remarks.  _The_Dispossessed_
>seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a
>political essay (some would say propaganda).

_Atlas_Shrugged_ ??  I thought this was a figment of Robert O'Shea's
and/or Robert Anton Wilson's imagination, along with
_Telemechus_Sneezed_.  Does Atlanta Hope map to Ursula K. LeGuin?

Hugh

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 04:39:40 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

Hugh_W_Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM:
>>I wish to strongly echo the above remarks.  _The_Dispossessed_
>>seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a
>>political essay (some would say propaganda).
>_Atlas_Shrugged_ ??  I thought this was a figment of Robert
>O'Shea's and/or Robert Anton Wilson's imagination, along with
>_Telemechus_Sneezed_.  Does Atlanta Hope map to Ursula K. LeGuin?

Don't insult LeGuin; she's a good writer.  ATLAS SHRUGGED is the
excretion of Ayn Rand, who is (was) real.  Her political ideals
were, shall we say, not enthusiastically accepted.  Neither were her
books.

Shea/Wilson grabbed TELEMACHUS SNEEZED from ATLAS SHRUGGED -- title
and first line (``Who is John Galt?'').

I read the first hundred pages of ATLAS SHRUGGED and threw it out.
Politically I'm an oddball and I'm quite an individualist -- but I
couldn't stomach the crap she was throwing at me.

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 12:38:37 GMT
From: rruxg!wwd@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

>I wish to strongly echo the above remarks.  _The_Dispossessed_
>seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a
>political essay (some would say propaganda).

A contrary voice: I read it in the light of her short story "The
Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" in which we are presented with a
seemingly ideal utopia, but which bears some hidden oppression. The
anarchist world is flawed in that people are not free to follow
intellectual pursuits because of the economic struggle they all must
face for survival. The 'hero' of the novel tries to resolve this but
only gains rejection because of the prejudices of his fellow
'anarchists'.  I was just looking for my copy of the _Dispossessed_,
wasn't it dedicated to "those who walked away from Omelas"?

Something almost completely different: Was anyone else intrigued by
Card's adaption of LeGuin's themes in _Speaker_for_the_Dead_ (trees,
the ansible, the noble savage)?

rruxjj!wwd

------------------------------

Date: 12-Mar-1987 1110
From: mccutcheon%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Live free and die)
Subject: Lythande and Theives World

As I remember, Lythande doesn't eat in front of men, not because she
can't, but to give the impression that this might be her secret.
Everyone knows (well at least other adapts know) that she must have
a secret, so why not hint at something obviously way off?  The only
women I can remember her eating in front of was the madam of the
Aphrodisia house (?? its been awhile) and the travelers, both of
whom knew her secret, and she trusted.

Too bad Thieve's World went the way it has.  I gave up a few books
ago.  I really got tired of the two sorceresses, the old undead, and
nothing new happening.  When it got a chore to follow I decided to
stop reading.  (I really liked the early books though!)

Charlie McCutcheon

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 12:21:41 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Covers (spoiler!?)

miker@wjvax.UUCP (Mike Ryan) writes:
>Lythande is an Adept of the Blue Star, kind of weak magicians.
>Their power is linked to the fact that they must all protect a
>secret. Lythande's secret is that 'he' is a she. I forget which
>fine volume this comes out in, but it's one of the early, read
>'good', ones.

   It was in fact the first one and you're right it is a good one.

>I don't think she dies if someone pegs her as a sheila, she just
>loses her powers and then won't be able to fight the powers of
>darkness at the end of time with her fellow Adepts , who are mostly
>male. Lythande is very!

  She doesn't die, neither does she lose her powers, instead she
becomes under the control of the one who works out she's a sheila
and, if they are as good old 'half hand' they can just make her give
up her powers to him and then he'd probably kill her. In the story
you mention Lythande shares her secret with the madam of Aphrodysia
house who happens to be related to her.
 (Just out of interest, in a supposedly different world with it's
own gods and the like. Why does the local knocking shop have to be
named after one of the hellenic gods?)

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Mar 87 10:37:08-EST
From: Jonathan L Burstein <CC4.JL-BURSTEIN@CU20D.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: story author/title request

Quite a few years ago I read a short story which had as its basic
plot a single starship travelor returning to Earth after (many)
thousands of years - time dilation effect.

When he comes back he finds that just about all traces of
civilization are gone.  One curious discovery is a crudely lettered
sign which says "Ware Q", which he feels may be referring to World
War Q (i.e., after a dozen or so they stopped numbering them and
went to letters instead).

Actually, the "ware" is a shortened version of "beware", and the "Q"
is a sign of a very ansty and virulent bacillus.

Any info as to author, title, and location muchly appreciated.

Thank you
Danny Burstein
(D-Burstein @ CUTC20
mcimail:DBURSTEIN)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 14:11:01 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
Subject: Heart of the Comet:  Brin & Benford

Anyone into "hard" sf who hasn't picked this up yet, DO SO NOW!! I
am about 2/3 of the way thru, and totally fascinated! The story is
about a group of around 400 people who go out to Halley's Comet on
its 22nd century swing by with the intention of settling there and
doing research into (among other things) altering its course. The
idea is this is the groundwork on diverting other comets into more
desirable orbits for harvesting or possibly using them to help
terraform Mars, etc. They have cold sleep and some rather
interesting ways of making the insides of the comet liveable during
the 70-odd year period they intend to be on the comet (about one
full orbit).  Plus a good start into artificial intelligence, some
neat machines, genetic engineering, and other fun things. That's all
I'll tell you except:

This ties in to the discussion on what happens if you go into space
without your suit....There is a scene where there is a need for an
individual to do just that. He uses ear plugs and goggles, and has a
small bottle of air.  Wearing just a coverall. They figure he has a
maximum of 3 minutes before problems of loss of O2 and nitrogen
bubbling in the blood make it impossible for him to see, let alone
think, with concommitant loss of purpose/motor control.

Don't know how they figured all this out...suspect they may have
some of the information on leaky spacesuit testing mentioned
earlier??

Anyone else out there read this one yet??

For those who haven't, its in paperback...get it and enjoy!!

Sheri
ltsmith@mitre.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Mar 87 1036-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #100
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 87 1036-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #100
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 23:46:53 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>The use of 'SF' also goes back to at least the 1950s, so it's not a
>modern replacement for 'sci-fi'. One reason it's favored, I think,
>is that it's less definite. There's never been that much science in
>science fiction, and there's more scienceless SF than ever these
>days, thus making a vague term like 'SF' very appropriate.

The way I heard it, "SF" was more appropriate because it could as
easily stand for "Speculative Fiction", which can include Fantasy
and all the in-betweens, as "Science Fiction".  "Sci-fi" isn't a
very good short-form for Speculative Fiction, y'know.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 02:42:56 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Terminology

Lately, on the net there has been much arguing back and forth over
what is the distinction, if any, between Science Fiction and
Fantasy.  I think the matter is almost purely one of idiom rather
than anything else.  By idiom I mean that if the author uses
technological terminology (for example, light sail) then the work is
sf.  If the author uses mythological terminology (for example, magic
carpet) then the work is fantasy.  As such the author has complete
control over whether he/she is writing fantasy or sf.

What this boils down to is that the genre of a work is whatever the
author intends it to have.  This leaves some works in kind of a
limbo between the two genres.  Some authors deliberately use some of
each idiom in a single work.

However, there is another factor which complicates this simple
picture of idiom as the main difference between sf and fantasy.  By
tradition, sf should conform as much as possible to the natural laws
as we understand them.  If it does not, then an attempt (even if
only vague arm waving) should be made to explain why this
discrepancy occurs.  This tradition seems to be violated more often
than not.

Thus we have a splitting of sf into HARD sf, which follows the
tradition, and SOFT sf which does not.  This categorization seems to
be done more by the reader and leads to much argument over whether a
particular work (for example, "Dune") is hard or soft sf (it
certainly is not space opera!)

To answer a recent controversy about the Pern books, they are
definitely sf by idiom but soft by violation of the tradition.

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>I think everyone's getting a bit hung up on terminology, here. Hey,
>we're human beans: we INVENTED the words fantasy, science, and
>fiction! There ain't nothing out there in the real world called
>"fantasy" or "science fiction." Why is it so important, anyway, to
>distinguish between these two genres (or subgenres)? They're useful
>as terms only if they tell us something about a story: what does
>being able to say story X is really science fiction rather than
>fantasy buy us?

Once a term has been used for a while, it gains connotations which
are hard to overcome.  It helps people categorize works and authors.
It also leads to people making snap judgements which may not be
justified.

>I don't see that it buys us anything in descriptive or analytical
>power.

Perhaps not, but it makes the decision easier for people who don't
want to spend a lot of time deciding what to read.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 87 02:17:07 GMT
From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Terminology and Genres

With all this talk on terminology (SF versus Sci-Fi, SF versus
Fantasy, was "Alien" SF or Horror?, etc.), I'm reminded an argument
I heard not too long ago.  The case can be made that SF is not
really a genre (like Westerns, Romance, Mystery, Action/Adventure,
Horror, ...) but is instead a mode of writing.  This means you can
have a Mystery story that is told in either the SF or Descriptive
(realistic, main-stream, literary, non-speculative,
put-your-favorite-non-sf-word-here) mode.  I know I've read (or
seen) SF western, SF romance, SF action, SF horror, SF comedy, SF
satire, SF pornography (bad), picaresque SF, SF gothic, SF
travelogue, SF mystery, SF detective, SF historical and SF war
stories.  Of course there are some kinds of stories that are
inherently SF-ish in nature: End of the World (natural or man-made),
Time Travel, First Alien Contact, and (to a lesser degree)
distopias/utopias.  Although these are by their nature SF, one can
also write them in a Descriptive (...) mode.  Examples that spring
to mind are "Earth Abides" by George R. Stewart [end of the world
(natural)], "Contact" by Carl Sagan [first alien contact] and "The
Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood [future distopia].  These (and
others like them) are stories that WE know are SF but are in the
bookstore/library as "normal" fiction.  Using this view "Alien"
really is *both* Horror and SF.  All of this is only important, of
course, if you have to have a label for the things you read.

John Wenn

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 17:30:44 GMT
From: borealis!barry (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.

tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes:
>>    It is my belief that S.F. is a popular term because it is
>>somewhat obscure.  It defines an "in group" through jargon.
>Well, I don't know about the first argument, but I agree
>wholeheartedly with the second, and the "in group" argument
>expecially.  If you think about it, who is most likely to have
>developed the term "sci-fi" in the first place?  Would it have been
>mundane media-types who's main purpose was to discredit the science
>fiction community and make fun of its members by using a name which
>none of them understood as refering to themselves?  Not bloody
>likely.  It seems obvious to me that the term "sci-fi" was
>developed by the science fiction community itself, or perhaps by a
>publisher somewhere.

   I've been assuming the origin of the term 'sci-fi' was too well
known to bear retelling, but maybe not. Forrest J.  Ackerman (AKA
"Mr. Science Fiction") claims it's his term, and I know of no rival
claimants for the honor. So you got that right.

>Given this fact, it seems that the only reason to abandon the term
>is simply because the mundane community at large has figured out
>what it means, and we want to be special.

   I don't think so. The impression I have is that a lot of the SF
community *never* liked the term, and heaven knows why. In any case,
like all terms, it gets defined by how it's used, and among the fen,
it's usually used to denote bad SF, and particularly bad SF on film.
The mundane world, of course, still uses it as a synonym for all
science fiction. So, last I heard, does Forrey. But the term was
*never* as widespread inside the SF world as it is outside. It was
popularized by journals like TIME magazine, not by ASTOUNDING or
F&SF.
   The use of 'SF' also goes back to at least the 1950s, so it's not
a modern replacement for 'sci-fi'. One reason it's favored, I think,
is that it's less definite. There's never been that much science in
science fiction, and there's more scienceless SF than ever these
days, thus making a vague term like 'SF' very appropriate.
   Me, I like 'skiffy', but I'm just a Philistine :-).

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 19:04:48 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Terminology

marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>...Science fiction is based on technology and the physical laws we
>recognize in our known universe.  Fantasy involves any powers or
>physical laws that are not known and recognized by scientists, like
>magic, ESP, and so forth.  ... By this definition, teleportation
>can be used in either genre.  If teleportation is achieved with a
>machine or device of some sort, it's science fiction.  If
>teleportation is a form of magic (like a gem or spell), or through
>telekenesis, then it qualifies as fantasy. ...

Much science fiction, however, uses "powers or physical laws that
are not known and recognized by scientists." What about science
fiction stories that talk about FTL drives, matter transmitters,
pure energy beings, psionic devices, etc.?? NONE of these things are
within the bounds of reality as we understand it. Ergo, science
fiction is (by your definition) a subset of fantasy.

I think everyone's getting a bit hung up on terminology, here. Hey,
we're human beans: we INVENTED the words fantasy, science, and
fiction! There ain't nothing out there in the real world called
"fantasy" or "science fiction." Why is it so important, anyway, to
distinguish between these two genres (or subgenres)? They're useful
as terms only if they tell us something about a story: what does
being able to say story X is really science fiction rather than
fantasy buy us?

I don't see that it buys us anything in descriptive or analytical
power.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 02:04:06 GMT
From: wheaton!cculver@rutgers.edu (Calvin Culver)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

elb@mtx5c.UUCP writes:
>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).
>
>Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between
>episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the
>tribbles after the Klingons got them.  We may care about whether
>the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may
>watch the cartoons.
>
>A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things,...

Say what?  I have been a Trekkie (*not* a Trekker) since 1969, and I
do *not* care whether William Shatner got an A in the sixth grade,
or what Nichelle Nichols' (did I even spell that right?)
astrological sign is.  I *do* care about consistency between
episodes, what class the big-E is, and so on.  The term "trekker"
was first proposed back about 1974 as a "classier" version of
"trekkie", and was vetoed by consensus of the trekkie community at
the time. It has continually resurfaced since then, and many of us
trekkies have been resisting the term ever since.

calvin culver

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 22:35:07 GMT
From: reed!tim@rutgers.edu (T. Russell Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

From my previous posting:
 The same trend can be seen with the terms "trekkie" and the newer
 "trekker".  Trekkies of course called themselves trekkies before
 anybody else did.  Now that everybody and their grandmother knows
 what that term means, many prefer to call themselves "trekkers", so
 they can be special again.

elb@mtx5c.UUCP (Ellen Bart) writes:
>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).
>
>Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between
>episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the
>tribbles after the Klingons got them.  We may care about whether
>the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may
>watch the cartoons.
>
>A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things, but
>for sure he/she cares about Nichelle Nichols's astrological sign
>and whether William Shatner got an 'A' in French in 9th grade.
>
>I am proud to be identified with the former group, and, while I
>believe the latter group has a right to exist, I certainly do not
>want to be identified with them.  Got it?

I agree with you totally, and I associate myself with the former
group as well.  As a matter of fact, many of my previous articles to
this group have involved rather scathing attacks of what you prefer
to call "trekkies", but what I call "brain-dead vegatables".  The
only difference between our two opinions, as I see it, is that you
claim that the distinction between the two terms corresponds to the
distinction between the two kinds of fans (no, I don't use the term
"fen" either), while I simply do not accept that this correspondence
holds.

In any case, I most often claim to be a member of a "Trek
Appreciation Group" rather than a "Trekkie Club", and I have little
oportunity to use the term "Trekkie" except when relating to
mundanes.  They tend to ask me "Are you a trekkie?", and if I came
back with a nice long explanation as to why I am a trekker and not a
trekkie, they would most likely walk off thinking to themselves
"What a wierdo".  Hence, I say instead, proudly and with great
enthusiasm (:-), "YES!  I am a TREKKIE!"  Well, something like that
anyway.

T. Russell Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 20:51:19 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

   I would like to add another classification (as if we realy need
it) of Star Trek fan.  There are a number of us who think that
TREKKERS are ACTIVE fans.  They go to cons on a regular basis,
publish/edit fanzines, write stories (and occasionally get them
published), and generally form the core of Star Trek fandom.
   I personally think that such people are geat.  Unfortunately I
don't have the time to commit to such projects and DO NOT wish to be
identified as a Tekkie (Ungh!!).  Therefore I have coined (or
stolen) a term for apathetic Trekkers: Trekists.  Trekists do nearly
all the things that Trekkers do but not nearly as often.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 21:26:03 GMT
From: gwe@cbosgd.ATT.COM (George Erhart)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

cculver@wheaton.UUCP (Calvin Culver) writes:
>elb@mtx5c.UUCP writes:
>>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
>>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).
>
>Say what?  I have been a Trekkie (*not* a Trekker) since 1969,

Didn't Linus Pauling develop a vaccine for that ?

>so on.  The term "trekker" was first proposed back about 1974 as a
>"classier" version of "trekkie", and was vetoed by consensus of the
>trekkie community at the time. It has continually resurfaced since
>then, and many of us trekkies have been resisting the term ever
>since.

I can't believe this discussion is actually taking place. *All* of
us share a very specific interest in Star Trek, yet you *still* find
a need to split up into factions ? (But, gee, can't you tell, he's
black on the LEFT side !)

But, since I can't resist a good verbal brawl...

If I wished to label myself because of my interest in ST (and I
don't), I would prefer to be referred to as a Trekker. To me, and
many others not of the ST affiliation, "Trekkie" has the distinctive
odor of "Hippy", "Yuppy", "Preppy", or "Moonie".  I find it
demeaning. It connotes mindlessness, a slavish, nigh-religious
addiction to ST.

"Trekker" is better (but not *much* better). It is at least
consistent with the language. (Writer's note: I tried to think up
some examples here, of interests related to ST; they all come out
with double entendres and puns; believe me, it wasn't intentional)

F'rinstance: Gaming. One who games is a gamer, not "gamie" (I
    *warned* you.  And yes, I know that both terms often apply ! )
             Reading. One who reads is a reader, not a "bookie"
             etc.

Yes, I know, there are counter-examples (employee, lessee, etc.).It
doesn't matter. The fact is that many people are severly put off by
the term "Trekkie". I know that such prejudice isn't fair, or right,
but it IS, in the same sense that Mount Everest IS, or that Alma
Cogan ISN'T.

I now sit here, humble in my asbestos longjohns, awaiting the
enraged pyrotechnics to follow. But, from within my silver-clad
form, a tiny, muffled voice cries out, "Don't bother flaming. It's
just my opinion !"

Bill Thacker
cbatt!cbosgd!gwe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Mar 87 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #101
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 87 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #101
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Mar 87 12:56:31-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SPAR-20.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books

I read a number of the books people have been characterizing as
having as their sole message "sex is great" while a teenager, and I
want to disagree about their message.  Yes, this is definitely one
of them, but more to the point is the message "marriage (of any
kind) is great" and "family is important".  This is found in TEFL,
TMiaHM, to some extent in SiaSL, and a number of other books.  I
currently am in a group household situation which is incredibly
rewarding, and I think that having read these books and getting the
idea that groups of adults in a family situation would be a big win
may be partially responsible.  So don't put Heinlein down as just
promoting sex; he also promotes family values (so they're
non-traditional, personally I think they're better...)

Judy

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 14:05:32 EST (Tue)
From: Joel B Levin <levin@cc5.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
>TNotB, because he at least TRIES to deal with the question of what
>would happen if a bunch of his standard "dominant" type characters
>had to live in the same spaceship.

I think you have, as we say, nailed the head on the hit, although I
cannto claim to respect or like the book.  In fact, it struck me as
an orgy (and I mean that figuratively, here!) of mutual adulation
that most closely resembled narcissism, since it really was the one
character in four incarnations.

By the way, I came to this book with exactly the _wrong_ background
for it: my only exposure to Burroughs had been Tarzan; my only
knowledge of Oz came from the original _Wizard of Oz_ (the book, at
least); and the rest of the characters were a mystery to me.  Also,
I had read nothing of Heinlein since _IWFNE_, since all my favorite
stuff came with few exceptions before _Stranger_, so I had barely
heard of Lazarus Long.  Sigh.  I later read _Job_ and _Friday_ and
enjoyed them as much as I could given my distaste for the
personalities and thought processes common to many of RAH's newer
characters.

JBL
arpa: levin@bbn.com
uucp: ...harvard!bbnccv!levin

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 87 22:05:12 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Books

arlan@inuxm.UUCP (A Andrews) writes:
>I enjoyed every other book by RAH, but FRIDAY was the only one in
>which a superior person does NOT prevail, and in fact quits by
>running off to the frontier without having put up a significant
>fight.  I didn't say it was poorly written (although I did not
>understand the significance of the detailed discussion of the star
>maps), I just said it was the worst--and I explained what I meant,
>as discussed in the last sentence.

Remember that _Friday_ is written from the point of view of Friday.
*Heinlein* does not go into detail on the star maps, *Friday* does.
What's important to Friday is what Friday tells us about.  This is
why Friday spends so little time worrying speaking of the missions
and so much speaking of her "family" life.  When Friday was going
outsystem, this was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN HER LIFE.
Therefore, she might dwell on it.

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 21:10:09 GMT
From: scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books

From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SPAR-20.ARPA>
> I currently am in a group household situation which is incredibly
> rewarding, and I think that having read these books and getting
> the idea that groups of adults in a family situation would be a
> big win may be partially responsible.  So don't put Heinlein down
> as just promoting sex; he also promotes family values (so they're
> non-traditional, personally I think they're better...)

In another Heinlein book (_Friday_), the main character begins by
nearly achieving fulfillment through her nearly complete belonging
to/in an "S-group" (you know, support, security, sex, all those
other warm fuzzy things) that is basically a marriage among more
than 2 people.

While this may be a psychological win for some people (including
myself; there is no way that just 1 other person could could cover
everything I need), I would also insist that part the impetus for
the formation of these situations is not just the Good ideas that
Heinlein has had, but also the Bad ideas that certain people in
charge of economic policy have had, which make the cost of housing
in many areas Absolutely Unconscionable.  The Bureau of Labor
Statistics practically admitted as much last week when it revised
the housing component of the consumer price index upward from 37% to
43%.  In this case, financial necessity may be the mother of whole
new modes of social invention.

Which just goes to show you that even high rent can have its good
side-effects.  I guess.  I hope you all are really having fun out
there.  I hope you can give me a tour of your space if I can ever
get back there!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 03:37:38 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books

From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SPAR-20.ARPA>
>I read a number of the books people have been characterizing as
>having as their sole message "sex is great" while a teenager, and I
>want to disagree about their message.  Yes, this is definitely one
>of them, but more to the point is the message "marriage (of any
>kind) is great" and "family is important".  This is found in TEFL,
>TMiaHM, to some extent in SiaSL, and a number of other books.  I
>currently am in a group household situation which is incredibly
>rewarding, and I think that having read these books and getting the
>idea that groups of adults in a family situation would be a big win
>may be partially responsible.  So don't put Heinlein down as just
>promoting sex; he also promotes family values (so they're
>non-traditional, personally I think they're better...)

Agreed.  I consider the putdowns to be based on the same idiocy
which gives us people who try to denounce HUCKLEBERRY FINN as
racist.  Well, similar, at least; HUCK FINN "promoted" racism
outwardly while actually showing it to be stupid.  TEFL -- how
anyone gets the "sex is everything" thesis from this is beyond my
understanding, given that the very title is a reference to the story
within that promotes the "family is everything, sex is just sex"
thesis instead -- and the societies of Secundus and Tertius have a
refreshing lack of the various insane taboos in our society.

I suspect *this* is the reason TEFL is knocked.  People raised to
believe in the tribal taboos about sex and clothing have, via the
taboos, the unalterable idea that any society without those taboos
must be a constant orgy.  Secundus and Tertius, however, have gone
beyond the taboos, examined both without pre- conceptions of
evilness, and come to terms with them.  And, predictably, the
downfall of the sex taboo caused sex to stop being the mysterious
ultimate rite and just become an act, so that it doesn't get
interpreted as the sole reason for marriage any more (the same
applies to other strange ideas of this sort).  The nudity taboo
being tied to the sex taboo, it disappeared when the sex taboo did.
And the result, far from being an orgy, is a mature society which
doesn't waste energy in the strange sex- and clothing-related
activities ours has -- by which I mean the passion (I use the term
advisedly) for "fashion", Penthouse & co., shops selling all sorts
of sex paraphernalia, the craziness which requires feminine pads to
be advertised with pictures of ``innocent'' young women, etc.

It would also solve quite a few problems we're suffering from today.
If sex is accepted as being the means of procreation, rather than
something that's fun because it's taboo, I strongly suspect the
current legal and moral battles about abortion would be rendered
unnecessary; most ``unwanted pregnancies'' are the result of kids
experimenting with the sex taboo.

Somehow, I suspect that I'm going to get a LOT of flamage because of
this article.  If you won't send it to /dev/null, I will; I'm not a
caveman, I'm capable of looking at reality without hiding in
superstition; if you aren't, I don't want to hear about how I'm such
an evil corrupter of the innocent.

Now, off the soapbox and back to SF-LOVERS.  (I really didn't intend
to get into this discussion...)

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1987 20:39 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Robert Heinlein

Some time ago there was a discussion of the relative merits of RAH's
works. Let me declare my interest - his books relieve my depressions
and I read them repeatedly with pleasure

However, in an article in a magazine that I once read he gave some
sound advice to young author's which I have made into a poster:

1. Write every day
2. Finish (!)
3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it.
4. Put it on the market.
5. Keep it on the market until it sells!

He may not have been serious - or was this a fake essay?  Does any
one else recall where it was published?  I had to make the list from
memory - is it accurate?

And does he practice what he preaches???

Dick Botting, CalState San Ber'do

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 19:33:50 GMT
From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and the "sex is great" books

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
[Heinlein, sex and family life]
>Somehow, I suspect that I'm going to get a LOT of flamage because
>of this article.  If you won't send it to /dev/null, I will; I'm
>not a caveman, I'm capable of looking at reality without hiding in
>superstition; if you aren't, I don't want to hear about how I'm
>such an evil corrupter of the innocent.

   You won't hear it from me. I tend to find Heinlein's ideas and
observations about sex very sensible, and he's probably been one of
the major influences on my own sexual philosophy.
   But I do think he writes sex scenes very awkwardly, and I'm
happiest when he doesn't even attempt it. His characters are always
best at talking; after all, they do so much of it :-). His
narratives are always rich in dialogue, but short on description,
whatever the subject. This works fine for talking about sex as a
moral issue, but poorly for illustrating it.
   Love is another matter. In TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, "The Tale of the
Adopted Daughter" illustrates love beautifully, but sex has nothing
to do with it, as both Judy and Brandon note.
   I think it was Alfred Bester who observed that Heinlein writes
sex scenes "as if his mother were looking over his shoulder". As
long as this is taken as simile and not psychoanalysis, I'm afraid I
agree.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 07:45:36 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>In an article in a magazine that I once read he [Heinlein] gave
>some sound advice to young author's which I have made into a
>poster:
>
>1. Write every day
>2. Finish (!)
>3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it.
>4. Put it on the market.
>5. Keep it on the market until it sells!
>
>He may not have been serious - or was this a fake essay?  Does any
>one else recall where it was published?  I had to make the list
>from memory - is it accurate?

Afraid I can't give you a citation, but I am certain that this is a
serious essay. I have not seen it itself, but I know that I have
read Harlan Ellison discussing it in a column. He quoted these
points (I believe your memory is fairly accurate, but since mine may
not be that doesn't mean everything), and added that #3 ought to be
amended to read "...AND when such rewriting will not violate the
integrity either of the story or the author," or words to that
effect.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 13:10:09 GMT
From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>In an article in a magazine that I once read he gave some sound
>advice to young author's which I have made into a poster:
>
>1. Write every day
>2. Finish (!)
>3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it.
>4. Put it on the market.
>5. Keep it on the market until it sells!
>
>He may not have been serious - or was this a fake essay?

   He was completely serious.

>Does any one else recall where it was published?

   The essay is called "On the Writing of Speculative Fiction", and
was published in a symposium called OF WORLDS BEYOND, edited by
Lloyd Arthur Eshbach. First publication 1947.

>I had to make the list from memory - is it accurate?

   Yes.

>And does he practice what he preaches???

   I have heard that RAH was a daily and very disciplined writer up
to about 1960, at which point his habits changed somewhat, and he
began to write more and more as the mood struck, and less as though
it were a 9 to 5 job. If this is true it's interesting, since I feel
there's a "looser" feel to his books after about that time, but I
don't actually know if the story's true.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 06:18:41 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>In an article in a magazine that I once read he [Heinlein] gave
>some sound advice to young author's which I have made into a
>poster:
>
>1. Write every day
>2. Finish (!)
>3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it.
>4. Put it on the market.
>5. Keep it on the market until it sells!

The 'essay' was a guest editorial in Analog end was 'merely' a
reprint of his speech a the graduation ceremonies at Annapolis.

I know I have the issue, but since I have thirty years or so of
Analog and can't place it to less than a 15 year span...  I'll
refrain from looking it up. (unless I get a *lot* of requests)

I *think* it was also reprinted in "Expanded Universe"

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 02:57:18 GMT
From: encore!paradis@rutgers.edu (Jim Paradis)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

>1. Write every day
>2. Finish (!)
>3. Do not rewrite unless an editor requests it.
>4. Put it on the market.
>5. Keep it on the market until it sells!

These five rules of writing were also quoted in Ben Bova's "Notes to
a Science Fiction Writer", which includes the bibiographic
references to the original... <go to shelf, find book, flip, flip,
flip...>:

Heinlein, Robert A.  "Channel Markers,", _Analog_, January, 1974;
also in _Expanded_Universe: __The_New_Worlds_of_Robert_A._Heinlein_,
New York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1980.

Now to *find* one of these so I can read the whole speech!! :-)

Jim Paradis
Encore Computer Corp.
257 Cedar Hill St.
Marlboro MA 01752
(617) 460-0500
{linus|necntc|ihnp4|decvax|talcott}!encore!paradis

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Mar 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #102
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #102
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Conventions (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 17:04:45 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Large SF cons (was: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report)

>Wouldst be possible to further define thy adjectives and labels?
>I'm not asking for .semantics, here, but c'mon!
>
>"rowdies", "young punks", "droves", "age and guardiancy limits" ?

Rowdies - n. 1. Someone who runs through the halls at 4AM pounding
        on room doors at Boskone 24. 2. Someone who pulls fire
        extinguishers off the wall to have a water fight at Boskone
        24. 3. Someone who writes graffitti on hotel hall walls at
        Boskone 24.
Young punks - n. Someone who threatened physical violence to a
        Boskone 24 staffer.
Age and Guardiancy limits - adj. Refers to 16 year who was dropped
        off at Boskone 24 with no money for a hotel room and barely
        enough money for food.

I was at Boskone 24 and all the above was either directly
experienced by my or told to me by the person who
saw/experienced/heard it.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 08:54 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Conventions

I'm really astounded that there are actually people who argue that a
Convention Committee has an obligation to provide something.

If fans want input on a convention's programs or policies, they can
join the Committee.

If fans don't like a convention's programs or policies, they don't
have to attend the convention.

If a convention's programs or policies don't attract enough members,
it will lose money and eventually fold.

Isn't this called Free Enterprise  (or "freedom" for short)?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 16:41:46 EST
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@prophet.bbn.com>
Subject: Boskone

tower@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) writes
> Is the solution to Boskone's problems, to have NESFA actively
> encourage other events at the same time, that would siphon off the
> undesirable populations?

I'm not sure it would work.  After all, attendance by film-viewers
at Boskone has increased steadily despite the competition from the
Orson Welles Theatre's annual sf film festival, held on the same
weekend.  (MIT also has an annual all-night sf film marathon the end
of January.)  I think many people have simply gotten into the habit
of attending Boskone.  If Boskone is forced out of Boston into the
exurbs (say Worcester or Danvers) by hotel problems, maybe
attendance will fall because the attendees can't get there from
here.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 12:40:52 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

snuggle@rpiacm.UUCP (Chris Andersen) writes:
>First Suggestion: Split Boskone into two conventions to be held at
>different times and at different locations.

How would they be different besides time and location?  If they were
both run the same as the last Boskone, you would just have twice as
much trouble.

>Second Suggestion: Make Boskone bi-annual, thus giving NESFA more
>time to set things up.

I don't see what this would gain.  Maybe you think the hotel and the
people who put in the work to run Boskone would be likely to forget
the problems over a two year period?

>Third Suggestion: Make Boskone a floating regional convention in
>the Northeast.  Local SF groups can bid on it like Worldcon and
>when they win the bid, THEY take off some of the workload from
>NESFA (yeah, I know, Boskone not held in Boston!! Perish the
>thought!)

Although there is certainly an enormous amount of work involved in
Boskone, that has little to do with the current problems.  The
problems are that Boskone is being tossed out of all the big hotels
and is being infested with persons that are considered undesirable
by the hotels, by SF professional groups, and by those who put in
the work to run Boskone.  Undesirable because of vandalism, lack of
discerable interest in SF, a tendency to view the whole affair as a
weekend long party with free booze, etc., and many of these
undesirables fail to even pay for membership.

Of the 24 Boskones, at least 3 have been outside of the city of
Boston: one in Cambridge, one in Andover, and one in Danvers, all in
Massachusetts.

>Somehow I'd rather see a less frequent convention or a floating one
>then one that may be ruined by possibly Draconian restrictions.

You don't seem to grasp that Boskone has already been changed
drastically and irrevocably by the undesirables.  The next Boskone
will be around ONE THIRD the size of the last Boskone due to
physical facilities limits.  There will be people who want to go the
Boskone 25 who will have to be excluded because the facilities where
everyone fits don't want us anymore.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee
+1 617-492-8860

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 13:09:22 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel

rkolker@netxcom.uucp (Rick Kolker) Writes:
>It's still too early, as i understand there are still negotiations
>going on, but some early ideas re: if 89 not= Boston (due to hotel
>hassles)
>
>According to the World Science Fiction Association (WSFA)
>constitution

That's the World Science Fiction Society (WSFS).  WSFA is the
acronym for the Washington Science Fiction Association in the
Washington DC area that puts on Disclave, etc.

>(Not in front of me at this minute, but I looked at it over the
>weekend) The 89 Worldcon is in the hands of the Boston group until
>such time as they relinquish it, or a committee made up of the
>chairs of the existing Worldcon Committees decides it is defunct
>(unlikely at best).

You are remembering very old WSFS consitutional provisions.  The
present constitution says that if a Worldcon committee is "unable to
perform its duties" the other of the three future Worldcons whose
site is closest has primary responsibility for taking care of the
problem.  For Boston, that would be the Nolacon II Committee.
However, they are required to consult the WSFS Business Meeting if
there is time and the next one of those will be at Conspiracy '87,
this year's Worldcon, in Brighton, UK.  It seems unlikely that any
of these provisions will be invoked.

>There is no requirement I can find in the constitution that MSSF
>(Sp?)

That's Massachusetts Convention Fandom, Inc., MCFI

>hold the convention in Boston, just in the eastern region as
>defined in

Well, it is unclear but the consitution keeps talking about
selecting the "location and committee" for a Worldcon.  On the other
hand, the location was changed in 1977 without going through any
special procedure.

>the constitution.  As past reference I give you 1977, where the con
>passed through three cities and four hotels on its way to Miami
>Beach.  (or was it Miami?)

It moved only once, from Orlando to Miami Beach.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee
+1 617-492-8860

------------------------------

Date: 19-Mar-1987 1314
From: nylander%eyrie.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Chip)
Subject: Re: Boskone

One comment:

The convention organizers, since they are the "real workers" and
have final responsibility for the convention, DO have the right to
organize it anyway they like.  (If I was organizing it, for example,
I would de-empahsize most post-1965 written SF, except for a few
select craftwriters like Gene Wolfe).

If there is going to be a major change in programming, however, the
convention organizers have a RESPONSIBILITY to publicize that LOUDLY
and CLEARLY in all pre-convention information and mailings.

To do otherwise is to trade on the expectations of the media-lovers,
take their money, and then not provide the service that 1980's
Boskones have led them to expect.  That's dishonest.  Furthermore,
if it is not well-publicized, the crowds will not be diminished
significantly.

I will be eagerly looking forward to future Boskone information, to
see how this is handled.

chip

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 14:15:37 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (Rick Kolker)
Subject: Re: Possible NOREASCON problems with Hotel

dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.uucp (Rick Kolker) Writes:
>>It's still too early, as i understand there are still negotiations
>>going on, but some early ideas re: if 89 not= Boston (due to hotel
>>hassles)
>>
>>According to the World Science Fiction Association (WSFA)
>>constitution
>
>That's the World Science Fiction Society (WSFS).  WSFA is the
>acronym for the Washington Science Fiction Association in the
>Washington DC area that puts on Disclave, etc.

OOPS!  That's what I get for being a member (okay so my WSFA dues
aren't paid up...)

>>(Not in front of me at this minute, but I looked at it over the
>>weekend) The 89 Worldcon is in the hands of the Boston group until
>>such time as they relinquish it, or a committee made up of the
>>chairs of the existing Worldcon Committees decides it is defunct
>>(unlikely at best).
>
>You are remembering very old WSFS consitutional provisions.  The
>present constitution says that if a Worldcon committee is "unable
>to perform its duties" the other of the three future Worldcons
>whose site is closes has primary responsibility for taking care of
>the problem.  For Boston, that would be the Nolacon II Committee.
>However, they are required to consult the WSFS Business Meeting if
>there is time and the next one of those will be at Conspiracy '87,
>this year's Worldcon, in Brighton, UK.  It seems unlikely that any
>of these provisions will be invoked.

I didn't consider the hotel problem to be "unable to perform its
duties".  I was just saying it was the committee's con, not the
city's.

>>There is no requirement i can find in the constitution that MSSF
>>(Sp?)
>
>That's Massachusetts Convention Fandom, Inc., MCFI

More OOPS...why has fandom gotten acronym happy?

I'll quit now,  Don.  I fully expect Worldcon to be in Boston in 1989
and for it to be as well run as NESFA/MCFI cons traditionally are.

Keep us informed.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87  14:35:44 EST
From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: More About Boskone.

Some more of my 2 cents about Boskone (Roughly $0.0007):
1) Boskone's location is not responsible for it's large attendance.
If this were true, LUNACON would have 9500 attendees.
2) It is my opinion that Boskone has aspects that separate it from
the "pack": a)The best art show this side of worldcon, b) parties
with lots of free booze.

If the people at NESFA took the long view, they could just stop
advertising the con, and memberships would fall gradually.

Can someone out there confirm or deny the rumor that NESFA will be
banning alcohol at open parties?

It seems to me that eliminating significant parts of the program and
still having alcohol at open parties will give the impression that
Boskone is about parties, not Sci-Fi (Terminology intended see
earlier issues of SF-Lovers).

My belief is that the 'real' problem with Boskone is that NESFA has
*NEVER* defined the problem, nor have they clearly stated their
final goal for the Boskone.  They have been too busy crisis
managing.

Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 21 Mar 1987 10:42:52-PST
From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (The Wizard)
Subject: SF cons [and Boskone]

Regarding all the talk about reduced size Boskones, etc.

I typically only get to go to one *maybe* two cons, tops.  It's not
a financial problem, it's more logistical in getting away for a few
days with a bunch of friends at the same time.

For the con(s) that I go to, I naturally want to go to the best one
simply becaus I can't get to many at all.  Up until now, that con
was Boskone.  There was/is no other con that had as many people,
with so much varied programming happening.

I've been to 5 of the last 6 Boskones.  This last one ['87, XXIV]
had in the neighborhood of 4375 people [according to the final
Helmuth].  The updates that I got led me to believe it would be just
like XXIII.  They were wrong.  There was no video program, for one,
and the films were drastically cut back for another.  There were no
studio presentations either.  The worst part was the dealer's room.
The flyer said "about the same size as last year" and that they were
being more careful about book dealers duplicating titles.  Well,
there was a lot more empty space in the dealer's room because they
laid out the tables MUCH differently.  Best guesstimate is that this
was around 2/3 the size of last year.

I read books.  I also go to the movies and I watch a little
television.  When I go to a con, I would like *all* of that.  Most
of the people I go with feel the same way.  There's just something
intangible about going to a place with 5000 of your closest friends.
Here in NH, there isn't much to do so cons are big events.

Maybe Boskone should farm out the events they no longer wish to
handle.  If they don't want to do a video program, let someone else
do it.  The point is that Boskone has come to mean more to a lot of
people.  With them scaling back their scope, there won't be a
regional be-all end-all con in this area.  It looks like the next
one around here will be Noreascon [Worldcon '89].

My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with other
groups so that they could get their help and still keep the best con
in the Northeast growing.  NESFA is complaining that Boskone is too
big for them.  Well, I, for one, would rather see Boskone continue
in the path that it began to take than see it diminished.  I can see
a lot of 'in memoriam' t-shirts [Veteran of Boskone Glory Years].

Are there any NESFAns listening?  If you need help, ask!  I'm sure
there are groups out there that would love to help make a Boskone.

Comments?
dj

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 23:36:20 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Con at a Westin hotel (was Re: Boskone)

dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>This seems a bit overblown.  The Westin has always been too high
>class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected
>all approaches.  As for the others of the big three, some
>discussions are

Not true.  The World Fantasy Con that was held in Ottawa (1983?) was
held at the Westin.  I can't think of a more beautiful hotel...  I
wonder what nice things the World Fantasy Con said that made them
look that attractive?  "Sercons" might find themselves better
received.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 08:15:00 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Boskone

dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>This seems a bit overblown.  The Westin has always been too high
>class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected
>all approaches.

I was at a Boskone held at the Westin a few years ago.  At the time
we were told they were being trained in for use as an auxilliary
hotel for the worldcon coming up.  The restaurants, in particular,
were very ill- mannered.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Mar 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #103
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #103
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Kurtz (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 1987 20:00-EST
From: sal%brandeis.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: more Kurtz speculations (Spoiler)

>    As far as Michaela Drummond goes - my fuzzed brain couldnt
> figure how this is supposed to work but Katherine said that James
> Drummond although related to Camber is not necessarily Deryni and
> neither is his daughter as far as the Regents know.  Camber's
> sister apparently wasn't the only relative not to marry a Deryni
> spouse.

  But Michaela's mother was Cathan's widow...  And Davin and Ansel
were definitely Deryni - and known to be such by the regents
(remember Davin was blamed by the regents for the assassination
attempt on the princes).  Oh well, it should be fun to see her plots
twist - and I hope that they improve beyond Deus Ex Machina once she
gets back to the better developed characters (in my opinion,
anyway).  I have to admit that I was a little disappointed by the
Quest for St. Camber...

Oh well, speculation is always fun...

Sarah E. Chodrow
CSNET : sal@brandeis
USENET : allegra!zeppo!sec

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 05:05:07 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>'easy to train'.  The Haldane ritual can be explained in one, or
>both, of two ways, I think.
>
>a) It functions primarily to remove a *suppression* applied
>specially to the Haldanes because of the explosive potential of
>having too many people in the same family with powers.

I don't think this one holds.  Trained Deryni are nearly as powerful
as a Haldane [granted we haven't seen a person with Haldane-Type
power loose to a Deryni yet.]  I don't see how a suppression would
have been applied.

BTW part of my problem with this is that it caries across
generations.  Katherine told me that children of Healer-blocked
Deryni have normal (for Deryni) potentials.

>We see that the Haldane situation is special when we are told that
>Conal, as heir, is *expected* to be picking up some powers simply
>by virtue of being heir.  Surely in no other family do men begin to
>gain the power because their legal status has changed.

The comment to this effect by Dennis Arilan was made because Dennis
(though I really do like the character) doesn't know what he is
talking about.

Kelson said that some of his abilities started manifesting before
Brion's death and thus didn't see any problem with giving Nigel
partial power.  He made no mention of this starting with a change
in legal status.

I've often wondered why the Council believed for so long that only
one Haldane could hold the power.  When did Mahael of Arjenol get
his potentapotential activated?  If it was before Lionel's death
then we have an instant counterexample.  If it was after Lionel's
death (and Wencit's) then who set his potential.  One could argue
that Lionel did.  However Lionel had sons and therefore would have
made them not Mahael his magical heir.  On the other hand Wencit was
demonstrably sceptical of restrictions on "forbidden" things and
would have had no conceptual problem with both Lionel and a
potentially useful vassal like Mahael having power at the same time.

>By the way, not to complicate matters or anything, but it seems
>fairly clear that there is no such thing as 'Deryni' powers as
>opposed to 'human' powers.

I may slip up at times and use the term Human Power to mean
Haldane-type or Y' chromosome type potential.  Of course there are
people who definitely do not fit in with known potential groups but
 who do have talents For example:
  When Camber is sorting through Alister's memories he remembers
 Alister's quandries with a human with healer-like psychic
 sensitivity.  Alister was uncomfortable with special talents so he
 pondered whether to have the talent trained or to have the lad put
 through a normalization regimen.  We never did find out his
 decision - however it does show that such abilities exist.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Development

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 05:45:38 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>>But the power rituals are for the Haldane power, which comes
>>>full-blown at the moment of assumption. [ I wrote this -
>>>Shoshanna ]
>>Right.  Warin is an example of what happens if you have the talent
>>without the training.  Also, we've seen several cases of men with
>>the potential being 'easy to train'.

Sean Michael O'Flyn, Earl of Derry is an example of this.

>I don't see how Warin follows, here. Are you saying that Warin has
>the "Haldane-type" power? Are you claiming, then, that he probably
>went through a Haldane-type power ritual? Or are you saying that
>Warin is actually Deryni (my own theory--imagine his face! He and
>Jehana could start their own support group...)

I really don't think Warin is a Haldane type.  On the other hand I
attribute Cinhil's shields as being due to the mantal disciplines of
the OVD partially triggering some aspects of the Haldane potential.
Perhaps Warin's fervent belief by chance did the same thing?  I
really don't know.  Where do some of the miracle producing Saints
come from (other than Deryni faking it that is :-))

>For example, Cinhil's children's powers are set when they are very
>young. Presumably the form of the assumption ritual is determined
>at that time; recall that Brion had arranged a specific ritual for
>Kelson, and much of "Deryni Rising" hung on whether Morgan et al.
>could figure it out.

Cinhil's children were set so that when they became king and they
touched the Ring of Fire the potential would be triggered.  Note
this change of legal status was woven into the setting - and doesn't
justify Dennis' speculations about Conall's emergent powers.

I don't know if Kelson had had any formal preparation done on him
before Deryni Rising.  Brion never liked to use his powers - it was
Morgan and Duncan who gave Kelson what limited amounts of occult
training he had.  The ritual he left behind was probably a guide so
that Morgan and Duncan could bring Kelson to power in spite of not
having a firm grounding on the theory.  Katherine has hinted also
that Morgan was prepared in a special way vis-a-vis the Haldane
power by King Donal.  The ritual Brion left behind probably took
this into account.

>I don't think that Haldane men (women? Never been a reigning queen
>that we know of) actually begin to gain their powers when their
>legal status changes, except in that they expect to. Although the
>triggers could be set in infancy to effect this; since the powers
>are psionic/psychological/mind-controlled, it should be possible to
>have the knowledge that one is the heir have an effect.

Katherine has stated that Haldane-type power is transmitted through
the male line only.  I cant think of any counter examples to go
against this.

An interesting thought though on the sex linked qualities of the
various talents.  Haldane-type power is said to descend thorough the
male line.  Deryni power through the female.  Healing talents seem
to go through either or both.  We don't really know in Dughal's case
whether his mother had any healing talents. However we do know that
Evaine and her father Camber definitely did not.  Both knew exactly
what their skills were and if they had been healers they would have
known Camber in fact tried to learn. Without success.  Rhys'
children by Evaine were healers meaning that the extra talents that
go along with and make up the Healing potential are not necessarily
sex-linked.

>Sure. No one in this universe claims that Deryni and humans are
>different species; they interbreed! But there do seem to be

Now is probably a good time to drop another comment made by Katherine
at Confusion:

"Deryni are not Non-Human.  They are perfected-human."

>Whether all humans (persons without Deryni-type power) can assume
>Haldane-type power is unknown. Certainly it is nearly treason and
>blasphemy in some circles to suggest it.

I really doubt that they can.  The Haldanes and other lines have
always demonstrated detectable potential over and above what is
normally associated with humans.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Development

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 06:47:14 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?"

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>>My personal theory is that the power potential is associated with
>>the human ruling houses of the original Eleven Kingdom's
>> ... [some of my ramblings deleted] ...
>
>I don't think Torenth is one of the Eleven Kingdoms. Aren't the
>so-called "Eleven Kingdoms" the small kingdoms over which the king
>of Gwynedd, which is one of them, is high king? Kelson is king of
>Gwynedd, and therefore overlord of the kings of Llanadd, Howice,
>and all the others whose names I can't remember because they're
>mostly unimportant. (For instance, the Princess Janniver's father
>is a king who owes fealty to Kelson.) We haven't really seen much
>of the political organization of the Eleven Kingdoms (except as it
>relates to Meara!); some of this is extrapolated from what we've
>been told...

In the front of at least the mass market edition of Camber of Culdi
there is an excerpt from the Lay of Lord Llewellyn that lists the
ancient Eleven Kingdoms.

They are:

   1. Torenth
   2. Tolan
   3. Kheldour
   4. "Mountainous Meara"
   5. "the Fierce Connait"(sp?)
   6. Howicce
   7. Llannedd
   8. "myrth ridden Mooryn" (Carthmoor & Corwyn in Kelson's time)
   9. Eastmarch
   10. "far flung Gwynedd, seat of the Haldane Kings"
   11. "lost Caeress, which sank beneath the sea"

The quotes from the poem are approximate.  I think I'll memorize it
over break.  (That book is at home)

As to Kelson being overlord to all of the Eleven Kingdoms I don't
think so.  Although he certainly has a better claim on the title
than anyone else.  By my count he has Gwynedd, Eastmarch, Mooryn,
Meara, Kheldour, and since the Gwynedd-Torenth war of 1120, Torenth
and Tolan as well.  Lets see - that makes 7 of a currently possible
10. ( I suppose he could claim to be overlord of Caeress - I don't
see much point to it though. blub. blub.)

Any claim by individual kings to hegemony over the whole of the
Eleven Kingdoms is I suspect closer to the form of Kingship over the
whole of England before Alfred the Great.  There are historians who
will assure you that there were such.  However the real title was
"Bretwalda" or leader of the Britons.  It was not hereditary and
consisted mostly of one of the Kings being strong enough to say
what's what and not having another King's army trash him.

I suspect that oaths to the contrary this is how Gwynedd's
overlordship of Torenth and Tolan will work.  Kelson is strong
enough to enforce it at the moment (barely, it helps that he has the
King of Torenth where he can watch him) but under a weak King that
overlordship will quickly become very nominal if not forgotten.

I don't think that Howicce and Llanedd are vassal states.  Neither
monarch has ever shown up at Kelson's court or been mentioned as
delivering military service to him other than in a mercenary
capacity.

Connait I also don't know about but I suppose it could go either way
(but I doubt it more with every thought I give it)

>I think that later books, since the postscript on genetics was
>published, have pretty much forced us not to rely on it as an
>explanation of Deryni inheritance. (Has anyone specifically asked
>her if she still means to hold to it?) I went and looked Calder up
>in the index to people in Quest, and it's *real* unlikely that a
>Deryni would side with Loris, don't you think? And if he's a Deryni
>and doesn't know it, how did he get past ordination?

His siding with Loris is why I didn't think him the likely subject
of a miracle.  Calder could quite easily not be Deryni.  On the
other hand supposed he was ordained somewhere out of the way by a
mountain priest and just happened to slip by.  Or he is a member of
an even-more-super-secret-than-the-Camberian-Council Camberian
Conspiracy assigned to keep an eye on Loris. (here I'm really going
off the deep end.  blub. blub. (Maybe I'll go visit my friends in
Caeress))

Last I heard from her on the subject (last January) the Genetics
were still official.

BTW on Calder I just was suggesting that someone should check,
however since no one in Gwynedd understands Genetics it probably
won't be done (sigh, another loose end never to be tied up).  Of
course if you take him slipping through by accident (or with
unknowing help - perhaps a more-than-you-want-to-believe-conspiracy
helped him without his knowledge) (blub. blub) Then he could be
another candidate for the Waren de Grey/Queen Jehana "we're Deryni
but can't handle it" support group.

Brings me to another tangent that I thought of though I don't have
the relevant book up here to check on.  Katherine has hinted that
Dennis helped Duncan through his ordination.  This means that Dennis
knew Duncan was Deryni LONG before the St. Torin's affair.  However
I seem to recall that Dennis specifically told the Camberian Council
in High Deryni that he had no reason before then to believe Duncan
was Deryni.  Is Dennis keeping secrets from the Council?  Why since
the council is the group that attempted to get him through.  Was
Duncan a personal project that he did on his own because he knew
that the Council would disapprove of his risking his position for a
mere half-Deryni?  Or is Dennis apart of one of the above mentioned
conspiracies and knew Duncan was Deryni because this conspiracy
managed to keep surreptitious track of all of Camber's Descendants.
(Katherine mentions in her preface to the Kighting of Derry that
Morgan & Duncan are descended from Rhys and Evaine) I don't know.
(Caeresse is just comming into sight now...  See you when I get back

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Development

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 06:17:38 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Saint Bearand Haldane

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Which still leaves the question: why was he canonized? (Miracles
>apparently aren't necessary for canonization in the Eleven
>Kingdoms; we never hear of the late Bishop Istelyn performing any.
>I thought that the Catholic Church required evidence of miracles to
>canonize someone (in our universe, this is); can anyone
>knowledgable say whether this is so?)

Well, while not as knowledgable as I might be I'll take a stab at
this...

The current requirements for sainthood require several miracles
*after* death. This rules is <200 years old. It may be less than
100.

The requirements used to be a *lot* looser. Saint Josaphat (sp?) was
canonized because what filtered back to to the West sounded fairly
close to Christian teachings and he 'seemed holy'.

Much later it was discovered that 'Josaphat' was a 'teacher' known
as Buddha.... (ooops!)

"A Canticle for Liebowitz" by Miller goes into *great* detail about
the process of canonization.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Mar 87 1105-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 87 1105-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Terminology (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 23:33:58 GMT
From: endot!hinch@rutgers.edu (cream kid)
Subject: Re: Terminology and Genres

todd@uhccux.UUCP (The Perplexed Wiz) writes
>The linking factor of all SF (and Fantasy too) is that the reader
>is asked to be willing to suspend disbelief a bit further than in
>other types of fiction.  The reader is asked to accept premises
>that are beyond what we normally consider "reality."  The reader is
>asked a big "What If."  "What if faster than light travel were
>possible?"  "What if you could move through time?"  "What if you
>could ride a winged flying dragon."  "What if the Roman Empire
>never fell?"  ...todd

Then perhaps WHATIFICTION or WHAT IF FICTION or similar could more
clearly identify the genre (which I too believe it is).

Frederick Hinchliffe 2nd
ENDOT, Inc.  11001 Cedar Ave  Cleveland, OH 44106
Usenet: decvax!cwruecmp!endot!hinch
216.229.8900

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 05:13:57 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Terminology: sci-fi vs. sf

barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>I've been assuming the origin of the term 'sci-fi' was too well
>known to bear retelling, but maybe not. Forrest J.  Ackerman (AKA
>"Mr. Science Fiction") claims it's his term, and I know of no rival
>claimants for the honor. So you got that right.
>
>   The impression I have is that a lot of the SF community *never*
>liked the term, and heaven knows why. In any case, like all terms,
>it gets defined by how it's used, and among the fen, it's usually
>used to denote bad SF, and particularly bad SF on film. The mundane
>world, of course, still uses it as a synonym for all science
>fiction. So, last I heard, does Forrey. But the term was *never* as
>widespread inside the SF world as it is outside. It was popularized
>by journals like TIME magazine, not by ASTOUNDING or F&SF.
>   Me, I like 'skiffy', but I'm just a Philistine :-).

I think it's worth pointing out that the mundane world at large uses
the term "sci-fi" to denote exactly the same qualitative distinction
that we fen use; i.e., when a mundane (especially a literary
mundane) uses the phrase "sci-fi", he means "bad science fiction".
For most mundanes, the terms "science fiction" and "bad science
fiction" are completely synonymous.

The popular media need simple, all embracing formulae by which they
can jam the greatest amount of information into the smallest amount
of space. "Sci-fi" fits the bill extremely well, since it is
unambiguous, tiny, cutesy and memorable; and above all, there is no
way that anyone can mistake something that's been labelled "sci-fi"
for something that is actually worthy of the attention of an
intelligent consumer, and the underintelligent just won't care.

After all, we all know that Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., and Jorge Luis
Borges, and Margaret Atwood, and Thomas Pynchon, and Jonathan Swift,
and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and Stephen King, and John Collier don't
write "science fiction", or there'd be pictures of rocket ships on
the covers and they'd be filed under "SF" in all the book stores.
But Gene Wolfe and Ursula LeGuin and George R.R. Martin and Norman
Spinrad and Thomas Disch and Phillip K. Dick all write that silly
"sci-fi" hooey, and we don't want to bother with that, we'd rather
talk about the latest Rabbit book or argue about why Joyce says
"Hoopsa boyaboy hoopsa" three times instead of two at the beginning
of chapter 14 of _Ulysses_ or rave about yuppie sleaze novels.

And of course, in movies it's worse, but then, movies deserve much
worse.

And while I've got the attention of a perceptable number of people:
How do you think we folk down in comics land feel about all this? I
mean, you want a phrase that's loaded down with pejorative
connotations, just describe something as being "comic-book". We
don't deserve quite this much abuse, grumble mutter gripe... And if
I see one more mundane article on comics that begins, "Pow! Bang!
Whack! Comics aren't just for kids anymore!", I think I'll fracture
someone.

Anyway, I still don't like the term "sci-fi", mainly because I think
it sounds silly and trivial. As I've said before, when people begin
referring to William Styron as "li-fi" (literary fiction), _then_ I
will accept it.  Not before.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 18:28:08 GMT
From: lyang%jennifer@Sun.COM (Larry Yang)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).

OK.  How about:
        Star Trek Enthusiasts
        Star Trek Aficionados
        Star Trek Connoisseur
??

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 00:24:30 GMT
From: dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander)
Subject: Re: Terminology: sci-fi vs. sf

kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes:
>After all, we all know that Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., and Jorge Luis
>Borges, and Margaret Atwood, and Thomas Pynchon, and Jonathan
>Swift, and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and Stephen King, and John
>Collier don't write "science fiction", or there'd be pictures of
>rocket ships on the covers and they'd be filed under "SF" in all
>the book stores. But Gene Wolfe and Ursula LeGuin and George R.R.
>Martin and Norman Spinrad and Thomas Disch and Phillip K. Dick all
>write that silly "sci-fi" hooey, and we don't want to bother with
>that, we'd rather talk about the latest Rabbit book or argue about
>why Joyce says "Hoopsa boyaboy hoopsa" three times instead of two
>at the beginning of chapter 14 of _Ulysses_ or rave about yuppie
>sleaze novels.

The problem I see is that many writers ghettoize themselves by
writing in only one genre.  The first science fiction book I read
was Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle".  The only people who told me it
WASN'T science fiction were the s.f. fans.  Back in 1970 I guess he
hadn't made enough money to stop being ghettoized.  Of course,
Vonnegut has also published a lot of mainstream stories and plays
(No sf in Happy Birthday, Wanda June, though a bit of fantasy).  As
another example, Maragaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" is
definitely speculative fiction (this is the term she used to
describe its genre) but all of her other novels are "mainstream"
fiction.  With a few exceptions, many sf writers haven't attempted
to publish non-sf stuff.  (An obvious exception is Asimov, who has
written some very nice mysteries and tons of not very good
nonfiction.)  This problem is certainly by no means unique to sf -
mysteries, romance, western novels are all ghettoized.  I hate it
when people assume it's frivolous to read "Buried for Pleasure" but
it isn't frivolous to read "Great Expectations" - especially because
I think that Edmund Crispin wrote infinitely better than Charles
Dickens.

>Anyway, I still don't like the term "sci-fi", mainly because I
>think it sounds silly and trivial. As I've said before, when people
>begin referring to William Styron as "li-fi" (literary fiction),
>_then_ I will accept it.

I think li-fi is sort of cute.  The problem is that an awful lot of
mainstream fiction is more accurately described as trash-fi.

Miriam Nadel

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 13:32:05 GMT
From: gil@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Gil Neiger)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

Another note about the terms "trekkie" and "trekker".  Although the
latter is definitely newer, it is not very new anymore.  I recall it
being used at a Star Trek convention I attended in NYC in 1973.

Gil

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 14:34:35 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Terminology: sci-fi vs. sf

dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP writes:
>With a few exceptions, many sf writers haven't attempted to publish
>non-sf stuff.  ...

How about: Gene Wolfe, Tom Disch, Ursula LeGuin, J.G. Ballard, Kate
Wilhelm, ... just to name a few. A number of our best SF authors
have indeed published outside the genre. I'll wager I could come up
with a much larger list than the above if I tried.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 16:40:06 GMT
From: scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.)
Subject: Re: SF terminology/classifications

> I think Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is a great example of the
> hazy borderlines.

Well, it's hazy; I'll give it that.  Unfortunately, it has many
worse problems than mere haziness.

> The Pocket editions I have are even labeled differently:
> The Shadow of the Torturer is labeled Fantasy,
> The Claw of the Conciliator is Science Fantasy,
> The Sword of the Lictor and The Citadel of the Autarch are
> Science Fiction!

So; labelers are imperfect.

> If pressed, I'd call it Science Fantasy.  Any other opinions?

Glad you asked.  Yes, I have another opinion.  First of all, I will
grant that it qualifies as SF in the broadest sense (Speculative
Fiction).  Secondly, if I had to pick a sub-genre, I would very
dismissively just say "Fantasy" without any qualifications of any
kind.  There is nothing in the entire series that begins to explain
any "science" that may or may not be operating.  The Revolutionary
is practically the only scientific (as opposed to probably-magical)
artifact in the entire series, and the science behind it is not even
hinted at.

The more interesting borderline on which this whole series lies in
my personal opinion is that between gold and dross.  It has 5 or 6
good ideas weaved into 4 long books in a fashion that I personally
found dreadfully un-entertaining and minimally edifying.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 17:28:23 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: fanspeak (was Re: Convention discussion)

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
 [ short discussion by others (incl. me) of term "serfen" deleted ]
>Aw come on guys. No wonder non science fiction readers extract the
>urine if the people who read science fiction go round coming up
>with daft terms like 'fen' & 'serfen' etc. etc. ad nauseum. [ ... ]
>We are adults aren't we if they start to insult us or look upon
>science fiction with disdain why do we have to circle the wagons
>and start to snipe back at them with our stupid, cliquey jargon.

"Fanspeak" is not necessarily "stupid, cliquey jargon". I enjoy it
partly because it does connote a sense of community among fans.
There really is such a sense of community, and it's one of the big
reasons I enjoy conventions; just about everyone there is friendly
and approachable. That's not to say that everyone is objectively or
even subjectively pleasant, but the atmosphere is easygoing and I
like it very much. Fanspeak as an "in-group" jargon reinforces this,
but it does *not* necessarily involve the exclusion of others. (If I
meant it to, I would not have posted an explanation as soon as
someone asked!)  It is possible to have a sense of community that is
founded on inclusion, not exclusion.

Also, some concepts are difficult to express without a certain
vocabulary. In an earlier posting I referred to "trufannish"
conventions. I spent some time trying to come up with a better,
non-jargon term, and couldn't.

I do not use fanspeak as a way to "swipe back at" people who look at
sf with disdain. I do not use fanspeak to shut out others. I do not
use fanspeak as a way to dismiss the opinions of people who don't
share knowledge of the jargon. I do not consider trufandom an "elite
clique", to use another of your phrases. (If it were, I'd be shut
out of it.)

>We are arguing about books for ghod's sake, you know, [ ... ]

You do realize, don't you, that the spelling of "god" with an "h" is
a piece of fannish jargon?

> Just out of interest. If somebody came up to you and asked you why
>you read sci-fi how would you respond.

As follows: "Well, first, I don't really like the term 'sci-fi'
because it has some really negative associations. I read science
fiction and speculative fiction because it can explore questions
that no other genre of fiction can: questions about the effect of
technology on society, about the implications of the existence or
non-existence of other intelligent life in the universe, questions
about patterns of societal change, and many more. I find it
endlessly fascinating."

Often I am then asked about "the negative implications of the term
'sci-fi'". I answer that by saying that many people associate the
phrase with "Star Wars", "Battlestar Galactica", and similar trashy
space opera (no flames please, I liked Star Wars too but I wouldn't
claim it's art). While much of sf is trashy, as is much of every
genre (and here I might quote Sturgeon's Law [90% of everything is
sh*t]), sf at its best is extraordinary and does not deserve to be
judged by its most pulp-ish examples.

I do not take every excuse to jump on hapless mundanes and neo-fen
for their well-meaning but ignorant use of the phrase "sci-fi".

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 23:58:20 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

gwe@cbosgd.UUCP (Bill Thacker) writes:
>If I wished to label myself because of my interest in ST (and I
>don't), I would prefer to be referred to as a Trekker. To me, and
>many others not of the ST affiliation, "Trekkie" has the
>distinctive odor of "Hippy", "Yuppy", "Preppy", or "Moonie".  I
>find it demeaning. It connotes mindlessness, a slavish,
>nigh-religious addiction to ST.

Why don't you fill us in?  What do you find "demeaning" and
"mindless" about the term or the type of person called "hippie"?
Perhaps you got all your information on hippies from watching "The
Way To Eden." :-) And although my value set differs greatly from
those of yuppies, preppies, and moonies, I do not mind being
referred to as a "Trekkie" or with any other appropriate "-ie"
postfix, because I know that I have a set of values, just as all
those other "-ies" have their respective sets of values.

Since you brought up the point of mindlessness, let's talk about
mindlessness.  Let's also talk about pointlessness, idiocy, and
irrelevance.  So some people use the term "Trekkie" to refer to you.
So what?  YOU know who you are.  Why should you care about the
connotation some people may derive from some reasonably polite term,
in this case "Trekkie," used to refer to you?  THIS ARGUMENT JUST IS
NOT WORTH YOUT TIME AND TROUBLE.

Matthew Belmonte
Internet:  <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 04:53:32 GMT
From: gsmith@weyl.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Re: fanspeak (was Re: Convention discussion)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>"Fanspeak" is not necessarily "stupid, cliquey jargon".

  There is no absolute necessity for it to be stupid, cliquey
jargon.  It just happens to be a fact that it *is* stupid, cliquey
jargon. What is really funny is how so many of the "fen" who like
this sf version of valspeak are the same people who are insulted
over the ghettoization of sf. The solution, of course, is not to
read anything but sf, and to deride anyone who does as a "mundane".

>I do not take every excuse to jump on hapless mundanes and neo-fen
>for their well-meaning but ignorant use of the phrase "sci-fi".

  What about people like me who sometimes use the term to annoy
people like you?

Gene Ward Smith
UCB Math Dept
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Mar 87 1300-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 87 1300-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:

            Books - Duane & Gibson (2 msgs) & Harrison &
                    Hubbard (2 msgs) & Purnelle (2 msgs) & 
                    Pratchett (2 msgs) & Preuss & 
                    Ryan (2 msgs) & Schmitz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 87 10:54:55 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Series requests

Diane Duane has two excellent series going. One is THE TALE OF THE
FIVE, also known as the "DOOR" series. THE DOOR INTO FIRE and THE
DOOR INTO SHADOW are the first two chapters about the Middle
Kingdoms. THE DOOR INTO SUNSET is written, but not published, and
THE DOOR INTO STARLIGHT is yet to come.  The other series is the
"Wizard" series, set in our world. The first two books, SO YOU WANT
TO BE A WIZARD and DEEP WIZARDRY have focused on Kit and Nita, two
very powerful young wizards. The third book, whose title I can never
remember, will focus on Nita's sister Dairene. It should come out in
a year or so.  Her Star Trek books aren't really a series, so though
they're the best of the ST novels, I won't mention THE WOUNDED SKY
and MY ENEMY, MY ALLY here.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Mar 87 12:08:03-PST
From: This space for rent <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Gibson and Delany

So, I see that someone dislikes Gibson's NEUROMANCER, giving the
reasons that it has poor characterization and no central theme.

It often strikes me that most people know when they like or dislike
something, but can't really give a coherent explanation for the
reason why.  When asked, people recite cliches like "poor
characterization" even if they don't really seem to apply.  In the
case of NEUROMANCER, I think it might be a little closer to what's
going on to say that there's none of the sentimentality or nostalgia
that a lot of people seem to find so comforting in things like Star
Trek.  (Still, the cyberpunk futures really are not dystopias.
They're certainly not perfect worlds, but from a certain point of
view, they may be the best possible...).

And while I'm at it, in what sense can Delany's work be described as
all style and no substance?  Does this apply to *any* of Delany's
stuff, except possibly DHALGREN?  Have you ever read BABEL-17, NOVA,
TRITON, or STARS IN MY POCKET?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 14:26:40 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Neuromancer

J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>It often strikes me that most people know when they like or dislike
>something, but can't really give a coherent explanation for the
>reason why.  When asked, people recite cliches like "poor
>characterization" even if they don't really seem to apply.

Hear, hear!

I found _Neuromancer_ an interesting experience.  My friends warned
me against it, but said read it if you really want to find out what
cyberpunk is.  And while reading it, I kept saying, "Oh God, it's
just BLADE RUNNER crossed with TRON, with a Wolverine character
thrown in, and all rather blatant.  Just what do I care about all
these junkies, anyway?"  (Wolverine comes from the comics, by the
way.  He has adamantine claws and hyper-reflexes.  I like very much
all three of the allusions, and so felt it was rather a rip off.)
Every 30 pages, I had to convince myself to not chuck the book.  I
did not find something to smile over until the "no shit" exchange
between Wintermute and Case at the very end of the book.

So I finished the book, and didn't like it.  Yet I kept trying to
place in words what I didn't like about the book.  And you know
what?  Damn if the book didn't keep getting better and better.  And
now--I like it.  I like it a lot!  I'm sure I'll reread it
eventually, and this time enjoy it while I read it.  Rather
coincidentally, while waiting in a supermarket line, I somehow was
looking at this month's SPIN magazine--normally something I would
never have a reason to do--and there was a rather brief article on
cyberpunk that put Gibson and _Neuromancer_ in a historical
perspective with the likes of Kerouac and Pynchon.  No shit!

[Speaking of comics, and as an aside on the sf vs sci-fi debate, I
just couldn't care less how many people think comics are stupid and
juvenile.  *I* like them, and that suffices.  Indeed, I get a kick
out of the paradoxical reactions of my students when they see
stacks of the X-Men, Conan, and the like lying around my office.
"Huh?"]

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 19:44:42 GMT
From: pur-phy!dub@rutgers.edu
Subject: Bill, the Galactic Hero

( Incredibly minor spoilers ahead, so don't worry too much.)

   I just finished reading BILL, THE GALATIC HERO by Harry Harrison.
I originally picked up the book on a recommendation from this
network that it was like the father to Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy.
   I can now say that it is indeed somewhat related to HhGttG.  It
has the same silly, idiotic humor that worked quite well in HhGttG
but the mood of BILL is oh so very different.
   HhGttG's silliness was a nice silliness.  Bizarre stuff happened
and it was funny, but the outcome was ok (even if the Earth DOES get
blown up).  Our bunch of heroes always came through.  HhGttG is a
wonderful piece of fluff.
   While reading BILL, I was waiting for the silly train of events
that would probably land him as eventually becoming the Emperor.
Boy, was I ever wrong.  We watch as Bill slowly loses his human
characteristics on his road to becoming the ideal trooper in the war
against the Chingers.  Bill's final (in the book) confrontation with
a Chinger left me feeling very bad since it foreshadows that the
Chingers will ultimately loose the war, but I ended up liking their
society (from what little we see of it) more than human society.
   I'm not much of a literature expert but I'd say that Bill, the
Galactic Hero is a satire on war.  And it works shockingly well.
The last chapter is the "nail in the coffin" and at "the end" I was
stunned and quite a bit disgusted at Mr. Harrison for what he did to
his character.  It inspired me to write this article to tell people
that this book may use the tools of HhGttG but the direction BILL
goes is very, very different.
   I'd also say that this is Harrison's best novel.

Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP: pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub
      purdue!pur-phy!galileo!dub
ARPA: dub@newton.physics.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 08:46:20 PST
From: dennis@cod.nosc.mil (Dennis Cottel)
Subject: MISSION EARTH

AN ALIEN AFFAIR, Volume 4 of MISSION EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard

I got this book as a holiday party favor, and so this is the first
volume of the series that I have read.  It will also be the last.
I've seen this "dekalogy" described as having "high humor,
fast-paced drama, and social satire."  I found it unfunny and
aimless.  I seem to remember having seen these books on some kind of
"top sellers" list.  I can understand getting stuck with the first
one, but who's still buying them after six?  My copy will be donated
to the city library.

Dennis Cottel
Naval Ocean Systems Center
San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 225-2406
dennis@NOSC.MIL
sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 04:02:03 GMT
From: alberta!bjorn@rutgers.edu (Bjorn R. Bjornsson)
Subject: Re: MISSION EARTH

dennis@cod.nosc.mil writes:
> AN ALIEN AFFAIR, Volume 4 of MISSION EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard I got
> this book as a holiday party favor, and so this is the first
> volume of the series that I have read.  It will also be the last.
> I've seen this "dekalogy" described as having "high humor,
> fast-paced drama, and social satire."  I found it unfunny and
> aimless.

You could not possibly have picked a worse starting point for
reading this series.  I agree mostly with your assessment of the
fourth volume, for as I have stated in this group previously "An
Alien Affair" was a major bummer.  I even went so far as to wonder
whether the book had been written by Hubbard at all.  Fortunately
things do get better.  Having read the first 6 volumes I'm hungry
for more and would recommend the series to anyone that doesn't take
himself too seriously.  Volume 2 stands out as the best so far, and
volume 4 is a waste of time except for providing a bit of continuity
(B-).

Bjorn R. Bjornsson
alberta!bjorn

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 23:35:57 GMT
From: loral!ian@rutgers.edu (Ian Kaplan)
Subject: "Footfall" and Survivalists

A question regarding Jerry Pournelle and "Footfall" (by Niven and
Pournelle):

In Footfall there were some characters who were involved in a
Survivalist group (the Enclave). As far as I can tell the Enclave
itself is tangential to the story.  If the Enclave had been entirely
excised the book would have been changed in little but length (a
welcome change in this case).  It has been rumored that Pournelle is
involved with Survivalists.  Do any of you know if this is true?
The unnecessary inclusion of the Enclave could be ascribed to
Pournelle's practice of promoting himself and his interests (for
example, his son Alex and the programming language of the month).
Another example of this might be a reference in Footfall to a
"George Pournelle" of the San Diego Zoo (an employee, not an
inmate).

Ian Kaplan
(619) 560-5888 x4812
USENET: {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!loral!ian
ARPA:   sdcc6!loral!ian@UCSD
USPS:   8401 Aero Dr. San Diego, CA 92123

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 87 06:10:51 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Footfall" and Survivalists

ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes:
>In Footfall there were some characters who were involved in a
>Survivalist group (the Enclave). As far as I can tell the Enclave
>itself is tangential to the story.  If the Enclave had been
>entirely excised the book would have been changed little...

I'd call killing most of the people who took shelter there more than
a 'little' change!

>Another example of this might be a reference in Footfall to a
>"George Pournelle" of the San Diego Zoo (an employee, not an
>inmate).

Actually Jerry *is* in the story (Wade Curtis was a pen name he used
at one time). This makes it clear that another of the writers is
Niven. And of course Heinlein and a few others are obvious...

Pournelle has never made any secret of being in favor of both Civil
Defense and of *rational* survivalism (as opposed to the idiots out
in the back country with their arsenals) (funny, they've got lots of
ammo, but no seeds?)

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 14:00:32 GMT
From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Equal Rites By Terry Pratchett

Let me recommend this book to anyone who is sick of the overblown
pomposity of the fantasymongers. It is very funny and very well
written. You should also read the two previous books in the series
("The Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic"). Fantasy addicts
will probably like them too......

Lindsay F. Marshall
Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK
JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs
UUCP: <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay
PHONE: +44-91-2329233

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 11:12:20 GMT
From: warwick!rolf@rutgers.edu (Rolf Howarth)
Subject: Re: Equal Rites By Terry Pratchett

lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall) writes:
>Let me recommend this book to anyone who is sick of the overblown
>pomposity of the fantasymongers. It is very funny and very well
>written. You should also read the two previous books in the series
>("The Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic"). Fantasy addicts
>will probably like them too......

Let me second that. The sense of humour is very similar to the
Hitchhiker's Guide, but in a fantasy setting. If you like Douglas
Adams you'll love this.  The heroes are a failed wizard named
Rincewind, an in-sewer-ance salesman turned tourist called
Twoflower, and his sapient Luggage. I haven't read the third book
(Equal Rites) yet (I can't afford the hardback price...)  but if
it's only half as good as the other two I'm sure I shall greatly
enjoy reading it.

Rolf
Dept. of Computer Science
Warwick University, Coventry CV4 7AL England
JANET:  rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame
UUCP:   {seismo,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf
Tel:    +44 203 523523 ext 2485

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 08:56:25 PST
From: dennis@cod.nosc.mil (Dennis Cottel)
Subject: HUMAN ERROR

HUMAN ERROR by Paul Preuss

This book might fit into the recent SFL compilation of stories with
sentient computer themes.  It concerns a Bay Area "Protein Valley"
computer company under pressure to design a successful follow-on to
their biological-based PC.  The approach of the two super-designers
is to go with a genetically-engineered protein capable of
self-replicating and learning.  However, the story soon takes an
unexpected direction.  I enjoyed it.

Dennis Cottel
Naval Ocean Systems Center
San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 225-2406
dennis@NOSC.MIL
sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 23:15:29 GMT
From: ut-ngp!tmca@rutgers.edu (Tim Abbott)
Subject: The Adolescence of P1 - MAJOR SPOILERS!

     ***MAJOR SPOILERS HEREIN - DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU!***

   I have just finished reading the Adolescence of P-1, and a most
impressive book it is too; though obviously not written last week,
its portrayal of a machine intelligence was quite believable, to me,
at least.  It reminded me, in terms of its unputdownableness, of
much of Crichton's work (see, eg, Congo), but was perhaps a little
simplistic in its treatment of the military types (but then, maybe
admirals are really as stupid as that, who am I to know?) and
characterisation was a bit flat. On finishing the story, I was a
little miffed that P-1 got knobbled for a while, until I remembered
how bored I was with stories with predictable endings that pander
exactly to the expectations of the morass (Do I here three cheers
for the baddies?).

   However, to the point: in the blurb on the back of my copy it
says something to the effect of ' the final readout is the most
chilling...' but in the book itself the "final readout" is given
when Linda returns to Waterloo and types 'P1' at the terminal which
then replies:

   OOLCAY ITAY

   Now, am I the victim of a hoax intended to make me ask stupid
questions like this or is this actually supposed to mean something?
(Ignoring the AY's you can get COOL IT out of this, so one would
assume that a somewhat less powerful P1 still exists in the
machine...)

   Anybody got any ideas?

Tim

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P1 - MAJOR SPOILERS!
Date: 21 Mar 87 06:18:32 GMT

tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes:
>   OOLCAY ITAY
>   Now, am I the victim of a hoax intended to make me ask stupid
>questions like this or is this actually supposed to mean something?
>(Ignoring the AY's you can get COOL IT out of this
>
>   Anybody got any ideas?

  I have not read the book, but I *do* know that "OOLCAY ITAY" is
standard Pig-Latin for "COOL IT."
  Pig-Latin words are formed from regular English words by first
moving the first consonant sound of a word (if it begins with one)
to the end and then appending "ay."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 23:48:15 pst
From: ucdavis!clover!hildum@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Hildum)
Subject: James H. Schmitz

Much of James Schmitz's work appears in Analog.  The first that I
know of appears in the last of the 8.5 by 11 inch format Analog.
Various stories about Telzey and Trigger can be found there.  I
would love a complete listing of the publication dates - there is
one story that I read once and have not found again...

Eric Hildum

P.S. You will need to find a rather extensive collection of Analog
to find the old format stuff...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Mar 87 1317-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Mar 87 1317-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:

                   Miscellaneous - Time (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 09 Mar 1987 12:13 CST
From: <EDPX026%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Time travel and energy

The universe we live in is a 4-dimensional universe (Length, width,
depth and time).  You "waste" no energy if you travel from one time
to another, only transfer it, as you do when you travel from point A
to point B.  The "system" includes the time "axis".

Ed Lorden

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Mar 87 13:46:30 EST
From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: time travel

Reading some of the dialog about time travel that has recently been
posted on this net inspired me to post this in return:

* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION *

'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is
time is defined by writing the space coordinates as functions of
time and taking the derivative of each coordinate with respect to
time.  As anyone who has taken calculus knows, the derivative of any
coordinate with respect to itself is a constant, namely 1.
Therefore, the notion of 'travel through time' other than the
constant forward progress which we all experience is absurd.  For
this to be possible, you would have to have some sort of 'meta-time'
and define time travel as the derivative of 'time' with respect to
'meta-time'.  Which still brings up the fact that you can't travel
through 'meta-time' without defining a 'meta-meta-time', ad infinitum.

In short, the whole idea of time travel is an absurd notion, and has
received entirely too much attention in science fiction.

Michael McClennen
ST701135 at BROWNVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 87 02:58:10 GMT
From: maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Carl Greenberg (guest))
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>Energy conservation means the energy is always equal at every time
>along the time axis (for whatever your frame of reference is).
>That's ALL it means. Taking energy from one time and putting it in
>another violates energy conservation.

Here's an idea: perhaps the amount of energy in the 4-D universe,
start to finish, is a constant.  Same with matter.  This would allow
for matter and energy appearing- but they would have to disappear
later.  Or if they disappeared for a while, they would have to
reappear sometime.  I know of conservation of energy and matter, but
suppose the Universe merely insists on the AVERAGE of the energy to
be some specific, rather than remaining constant at all frames of
time.  OK, folks, poke some holes in it.

Carl Greenberg
ARPA:  maddox@ernie.berkeley.edu
UUCP: ...ucbvax!ucbernie!maddox

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 02:39:36 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Carl Greenberg (guest)) writes:
>Here's an idea: perhaps the amount of energy in the 4-D universe,
>start to finish, is a constant.  Same with matter.  This would
>allow for matter and energy appearing- but they would have to
>disappear later.  Or if they disappeared for a while, they would
>have to reappear sometime.  I knowv of conservation of energy and
>matter, but suppose the Universe merely insists on the AVERAGE of
>the energy to be some specific, rather than remaining constant at
>all frames of time.  OK, folks, poke some holes in it.

OK, here come the holes....

Actually, of course, energy conservation only holds within the
limits of the Uncertainty Principle. But those are pretty tight
Energy/Time limits.  I think it's

   (delta Energy) (delta Time) = hbar = Planck's Constant/2pi

(correct me if that's wrong, someone) and that's about right,
anyway.  But those are the limits you've got to work with.

Moving an object in time violates energy conservation unless you
remove/create an equal amount of energy, somehow, in the appropriate
time frames.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 08:02:57 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

EDPX026@ECNCDC.BITNET writes:
>The universe we live in is a 4-dimensional universe (Length, width,
>depth and time).  You "waste" no energy if you travel from one time
>to another, only transfer it, as you do when you travel from point
>A to point B.  The "system" includes the time "axis".

Um, yeah, we live in a 4-d (at least) universe, but that's not how
energy is conserved. It's meaningless to speak of energy being
conserved in your 4-d version. Energy conservation means the energy
is always equal at every time along the time axis (for whatever your
frame of reference is). That's ALL it means. Taking energy from one
time and putting it in another violates energy conservation.

Now, if you can show that there is some 4-d analogue of energy that
just has to be conserved throughout the 4-d system, and that
"normal" energy is just a special case of this, I would suggest you
publish. But that's not what everyone else means by energy
conservation.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 04:57:13 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: time travel

Boy, did Michael lead with his chin here...

ST701135@BROWNVM.BITNET writes:
>* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION *
>'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is
>time is defined by writing the space coordinates as functions of
>time and taking the derivative of each coordinate with respect to
>time.  As anyone who has taken calculus knows, the derivative of
>any coordinate with respect to itself is a constant, namely 1.
>Therefore, the notion of 'travel through time' other than the
>constant forward progress which we all experience is absurd.  For
>this to be possible, you would have to have some sort of
>'meta-time' and define time travel as the derivative of 'time' with
>respect to 'meta-time'.

Um, your argument is self-defeating, Michael... The obvious question
is, why can't we just choose another axis to differentiate along? We
have this four-dimensional function on four orthogonal axes (X, Y,
Z, T). We differentiate by X, Y, or Z instead of by T, and poof, no
problem.

We would therefore be traveling through time in a certain amount of
space, rather than traveling through space in a certain amount of
time.

I don't know if this corresponds to the popular idea of time travel,
but mathematically any variable is as good as any other, "as anyone
who has taken calculus knows."

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 09:03:20 GMT
From: mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville)
Subject: Re: time travel

ST701135@BROWNVM.BITNET writes:
>* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION *
>
>'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is
>time is defined by writing the space coordinates as functions of
>time and taking the derivative of each coordinate with respect to
>time.

This is the definition of velocity, i.e. how fast are you moving and
in what direction.  There is no intrinsic function of time in the
x,y, and z coordinates themselves, which is what you seem to be
claiming.

>  As anyone who has taken calculus knows, the derivative of any
>coordinate with respect to itself is a constant, namely 1.
>Therefore, the notion of 'travel through time' other than the
>constant forward progress which we all experience is absurd.

Why do you assume time travel needs to have a velocity?  Any object
motionless in space can have zero velocity.  You appear to be
suffering from knowing a little, which is too much.  What you are
saying is absurd gibberish.

> For this to be possible, you would have to have some sort of
>'meta-time' and define time travel as the derivative of 'time' with
>respect to 'meta-time'.  Which still brings up the fact that you
>can't travel through 'meta-time' without defining a
>'meta-meta-time', ad infinitum.

The reason velocity is defined the way it is is because time is
viewed to be unrelated to distance.  If, however, it is not,
velocity would need to be a measure of spatial displacement AND
temporal displacement.

>In short, the whole idea of time travel is an absurd notion, and
>has received entirely too much attention in science fiction.

Then why do you read SF?
Seems like an absurd notion to me!

Kevin
mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 09:12:44 GMT
From: mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>Um, yeah, we live in a 4-d (at least) universe, but that's not how
>energy is conserved. It's meaningless to speak of energy being
>conserved in your 4-d version. Energy conservation means the energy
>is always equal at every time along the time axis (for whatever
>your frame of reference is). That's ALL it means.

It does not!  Energy conservation means that in a CLOSED system,
energy is constant.  If travel in time is possible, then the system
is hardly closed if you consider one point in time.  If time travel
is assumed possible, all that energy conservation is that the total
energy of the universe over all time remains constant.

Kevin
mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 00:35:28 GMT
From: illusion!marcus@rutgers.edu (Marcus Hall)
Subject: Re: time travel

ST701135@BROWNVM.BITNET writes:
>* TIME TRAVEL IS AN ABSURD NOTION *
>
>'Travel' (i.e. motion) in a 4-d continuum one dimension of which is
>time ....

Why do you expect that time is a `normal' 4th dimension?  It is many
times convenient to represent things as if time were a spacial
dimension, but that doesn't mean that it is!

Consider a two dimensional world.  Time still exists in two
dimensions, right?  Flatlanders would construct models in which it
was convenient for time to be represented as a meta-dimension, their
third dimension.  Yet, from our three dimensional world we can `see'
the third dimension and know that it isn't time.  It seems that all
worlds must have time outside of the `normal' meaning of dimension.
You can't strip time away like you can any of the other dimensions
and still have a meaningful universe.

Actually, I guess it is possible (from a mathematical standpoint at
least) to view any axis as time and assume that whatever world you
chose (or at least your viewpoint of it) moved along at a constant
rate.  No, I guess that it would only be important that it be
percieved as constant from inside the world.

At any rate, constructing a model that treats ordinary time as a
spacial dimension without adjusting for the change in viewpoint is
bound to lead to contradictions.

marcus hall
ihnp4!illusion!marcus

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 02:40:29 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: time travel

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>We would therefore be traveling through time in a certain amount of
>space, rather than traveling through space in a certain amount of
>time.
>
>I don't know if this corresponds to the popular idea of time
>travel, but mathematically any variable is as good as any other,
>"as anyone who has taken calculus knows."

Heinlein, twice.  TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE and (shudder!) in an expanded
form in NUMBER OF THE BEAST (they swapped the meaning of the axes,
duration was along X, Y, or Z and T became a spatial variable).

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 13:40:06 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

 Correct me if I'm wrong but surely if time is a fourth spatial
coordinate then what do frames of time have to do with it? (What
*IS* a frame of time?)  The law of conservation of energy and matter
involves time passing during which the total energy of the system
remains constant, but from a 5D (say) view how does time pass? For
that matter what does a being who perceives time as just another
spatial coordinate use instead of time.
    If this isn't to irrelevant to this group and discussion (I
don't get net.comics) why hasn't John from the Wathchmen gone mad
yet? I would in his position!

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 09:05:00 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
> Correct me if I'm wrong but surely if time is a fourth spatial
>coordinate then what do frames of time have to do with it? (What
>*IS* a frame of time?)

Time is not a spatial coordinate. It can be represented as a
coordinate, but it has imaginary magnitude. As in sqrt(-1)
imaginary. This makes it very different from ordinary (real) spatial
coordinates.

Time frame: all I mean is using the total energy of the system at
any given moment. I know, this is sort of hard to define given a
large system, but I don't think that's very important to worry about
here (trying to keep things simple).

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 21:43:08 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>Time is not a spatial coordinate. It can be represented as a
>coordinate, but it has imaginary magnitude. As in sqrt(-1)
>imaginary. This makes it very different from ordinary (real)
>spatial coordinates.

Well, someone better versed in physics than I has corrected me
slightly.  Don't think of time as an imaginary spatial coordinate.
(That's an older concept.) It's something else entirely, and I have
been referred to Misner, Thorne and Wheeler Box 2.1 for a better
answer (which I don't have a copy of, so you can look it up yourself
if you want to know.)  I think the title is Gravitation, if memory
serves me well.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 03:38:45 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>>Time is not a spatial coordinate. It can be represented as a
>>coordinate, but it has imaginary magnitude. As in sqrt(-1)
>>imaginary. This makes it very different from ordinary (real)
>>spatial coordinates.
>
>Well, someone better versed in physics than I has corrected me
>slightly.  Don't think of time as an imaginary spatial coordinate.
>(That's an older concept.) It's something else entirely, and I have
>been referred to Misner, Thorne and Wheeler Box 2.1 for a better
>answer (which I don't have a copy of, so you can look it up
>yourself if you want to know.)  I think the title is Gravitation,
>if memory serves me well.

All right, so I looked it up anyway. The basic problem with viewing
time as an imaginary coordinate is that the distance is zero between
two points separated by a trajectory moving at the speed of light.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, so anyway, time is not a
spatial coordinate.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Mar 87 0935-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 87 0935-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:

                    Books - McCaffrey (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 14:06:56 GMT
From: pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Pern Money

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>P.S.  About the Pern books: did anyone notice that it wasn't until
>somewhere in the Harperhall (sub)trilogy that money was even
>mentioned.  The first two books (and maybe one of the Harperhall
>books) did not mention money at all.

 The first Harper book (Dragonsong if memory serves) didn't mention
money.

>I was kind of disappointed when money did appear.  After all, there
>are many books which don't mention religion, how many don't mention
>money?

 I was a little put out but it seemed that marks were used solely at
gathers as an aid to barter, after all who wants to go around paying
in fractions of a herd-beast for his bubbly pies :-) Other than at
gathers the system seemed to be almost a socialist/communist (I'm
not sure of the distinction, pick your favourite ) set-up, everybody
mucked in together and received provisions etc.  according to their
needs. Trade between halls was simply barter (in Dragonsong) Mebolly
is not to chuffed by the fact that the hold is having difficulty
getting hold of meat because no-one wants their fish. Of course the
Weyrs received tithes in recognition of what they had done for Pern
during threadfall and the fact was that the Weyrs were situated so
as to make agriculture a bit of a problem.
  Anybody who disagrees with this please feel free to pick holes in
it on the net. I won't be insulted and I *DO* read flames, it's
mighty cold in this terminal room :-)

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 17:25:57 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons)

friedman@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>The arguments that McCaffrey's dragons shouldn't be able to fly
>because they are too big for their wings ignore something basic:
>she never tells us how big they are, nor how much their wingspread
>is....

   As much as I agree with all of your observations, MORETA provides
dimensions fo dragons (well, lengths anyway).

   Green:   18-24 meters
   Blue:    25-30 meters
   Brown:   30-40 meters
   Bronze:  40-45 meters
   Gold:    45-50 meters

  As far as I can figure, Ruth would be in the 12-16 meter range.
(I'm not all that sure.)

cs2633ba@izar

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 87 00:56:46 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pern

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
> (horrible naming system they've got there, I still haven't worked
>out the rules for naming children yet)

Yes, it is, isn't it? Male children of dragonriders (the only people
she deals with) are named with a combination of their parents'
names, father's first, chosen in such a way that when they become
dragonriders the first vowel can be removed without making the name
unpronounceable. Thus F'lar and Lessa's son was named Felessan. When
he gets a dragon, he will be F'lessan. Thus the initial "F" is sort
of a patronymic. (The short story "The Littlest Dragonrider"
contradicted this slightly by having the main character have an
already-contracted name even though he was not yet a dragon-rider,
but the trilogies hold to this pattern.) Female children are
apparently just named anything.

Of course, this raises a real problem. What do a couple call their
second son? There aren't very many ways to combine names as simple
as most Pernese names are...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 87 21:34:20 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>[ ... ] there is what I would consider to be a rather large hole in
>the culture which has been defined on Pern.  There seems to be no
>religious belief of any kind, unless you count a semi-religious
>veneration of dragon riders.
>
>       Does anyone have an explanation to offer for this?  I find
>the notion of an entire culture operating without any sort of
>religion unlikely, particularly in a group which has been reduced
>to an essentially feudal society.  Comments?

Yes, this bothered me too, when I thought about it. (In all honesty
to McCaffrey, it didn't occur to me until the third time through the
books.)

I think I can stomach the idea of a semi-feudal culture without
religion, particularly since the Pernese are a lost colony and used
to have mega-technology, which as anyone in our society knows often
correlates with little organized religion. (Flames to
net.religion.fundamentalists, please.) But it is unlikely, and the
random oaths of "By the First Egg!" only make it worse, by making it
clear that there is something missing.

Has anyone on the net heard any comment by McCaffrey about this?

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@locus.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 87 20:50:54 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Pern anomaly

>...a rather large hole in the culture which has been defined on
>Pern.  There seems to be no religious belief of any kind...

Little as I believe it, I'd find it aesthetically satisfying to
apply the explanation from Hogan's book "Giant's Star".  That is,
that such beliefs do not arise naturally in nonscientific societies,
but are the results of a conspiracy to give people a muddled view of
the universe.  In other words, people whose ancestors were not
believers would not tend to become believers.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 20:53:56 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_avrd@rutgers.edu (The Littlest Orc)
Subject: Re: Re: Pern (minor spoilers)

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>Non-Weyr bred children of either sex seemed to be named just
>anything too.  Jaxom is an example again.

Jaxom is the son of Gemma and Lord Fax, is he not?  His name is
therefore another variation of combining his parents'...

vicka

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 04:31:05 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Pern Money

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
> I was a little put out but it seemed that marks were used solely
>at gathers as an aid to barter, after all who wants to go around
>paying in fractions of a herd-beast for his bubbly pies :-) Other
>than at gathers the system seemed

There was one time in "The White Dragon" where gambling was going on
using marks.

>to be almost a socialist/communist (I'm not sure of the
>distinction, pick your favourite ) set-up, everybody mucked in
>together and received provisions etc.  according to their needs.
>Trade between halls was simply barter. . .

The closest parallel I can come up with to the economic situation on
Pern is feudal.  This was intentional, I'm sure.  One of the causes
of feudalism in the European Middle Ages was intermittant raids by
foreign barbarians.  The Thread on Pern served the same function.

The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure
out who issues it.  Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or
some kind of government.  There don't seem to be any bankers on Pern
(or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no lawyers --
that's unAmerican :-) ) and the various Holders don't seem to be in
the business of minting money.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 23:52:52 GMT
From: netxcom!ewiles@rutgers.edu (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: Pern Money

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure
>out who issues it.  Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or
>some kind of government.  There don't seem to be any bankers on
>Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no
>lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) ) and the various Holders don't
>seem to be in the business of minting money.

The Holders don't mint money, the Crafthalls do.  That's why you
hear thinks like "2/32nds, and Smithcraft at that!"  (Paraphrased,
but you get the idea.)  Apparently, each Crafthall that produces
goods for sale mint money.  How they decide how much to mint, and
what each item is worth, I've no idea.

I say that only Crafthalls that produce goods for sale mint money
since the Harper Hall does not appear to do so.  I'm not sure about
this, but you never hear direct mention of "Harpercraft" marks.  So
I 'assume' that Crafthalls that produce goods for sale produce marks
to purchase those goods with.  And set values in terms of those
marks upon the goods they produce.  The really funky question is:
How do they equate the purchasing power of the various 'brands' of
marks to each other?  After only short thought, I believe that the
Lord Holder would keep track of what the ratio between things
bartered was, and use that as a rough measure of exchange rates.

Thus: If one runnerbeast (valued at 10 Herdcraft Marks) was
orignally equated to one gold ring (valued at 10 Smithcraft Marks).
And at a later point, it took two runnerbeasts to match one gold
ring, the Herdcraft Marks would be trading at 2 for 1 to Smithcraft
Marks.

Of course, I could be full of it too.... :-)

Edwin Wiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180
seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 05:10:50 GMT
From: sdiris1!res@rutgers.edu (Skip Sanders)
Subject: Re: Pern Money

There is a note on the question of who "makes" the marks in
dragonsinger...  When Piemur works his "scam" in selling musical
instruments, he mentions that the marks are "Smithcraft at that..."
  I interpret this to mean that the marks are issued by the
crafthalls, and are based on a merchandise value to the issuing
hall... that is, smith marks are guaranteed to buy a certain amount
of smith products... they are then items of barter in general, with
marks from some crafts perhaps of more value than others, depending
on what hall makes the most wanted items...

Skip Sanders
sdcsvax!jack!man!sdiris1!res
Phone : 619-273-8725 (evenings)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 18 Mar 87 09:19:19-PST
From: Dave Combs <COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Lengths of turns and naming children on Pern

In a recent issue, Piers Cawley(pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk) writes:
>Having read all the Pern books it seems to me that a turn on Pern
>is a hell of a lot shorter than an Earth year. I've nothing
>concrete to go on but after about 20 turns people like F'lar
>(horrible naming system they've got there, I still haven't worked
>out the rules for naming children yet) and Lessa have hardly aged,
>the only person showing signs of age is Robinton with his heart
>seizure. Yet at the same time Jaxom grows up remarkably quickly.
>Does this mean that people live longer and thus have a longer
>period of peak ability, does it mean that a turn is not as long as
>an earth year or does it just mean that McCaffrey didn't think it
>through properly :-)

As far as I can tell, (I haven't re-read the books in a couple of
years), turns on Pern seem roughly the same length as Terran years.
Remember, at the beginning of the 1st book F'lar was probably in his
early 20's, and it seems later that he's somewhere in his 40's - not
"aged" yet, but certainly not as young as he used to be.

Regarding the naming scheme, it is mentioned in one of the books
that the child's name is shortened when he becomes a dragonrider.
I'll try and find the passage when I get a chance.

Cheers,
Dave

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 18:44:29 GMT
From: h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Pern Money

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure
>out who issues it.  Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or
>some kind of government.  There don't seem to be any bankers on
>Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no
>lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) )

   Maybe, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try.  :-)

>and the various Holders don't seem to be in the business of minting
>money.

     I recall (my memory is noted for its volatility, so don't hold
me to it) a passage (probably in one of the Harper Hall books) about
an apprentice using marks that had Smithcraft colors on it.  Also, I
believe that the marks Menolly and Piemur used were Harper blue.
     I guess this means that the crafthalls issue the marks, and
guarantee their worth with their own products, making marks a hard
currency of sorts.  You can barter for Smithcraft products, or you
can just buy them with the Smith's own marks (possibly you can buy
with other hall's marks, but this might come under the heading of
barter).

Brent Woods
500 Russell St., Apt. 19
West Lafayette, IN  47906
USENET:{seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh
BITNET:PODUM@PURCCVM
PHONE: (317) 743-6445

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 21:32:40 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@rutgers.edu (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Pern

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>(The short story "The Littlest Dragonrider" contradicted this
>slightly by having the main character have an already-contracted
>name even though he was not yet a dragon-rider, but the trilogies
>hold to this pattern.)

Huh?  What were you smoking when you read "The Littlest
Dragonrider"?  He is not K'van until he impresses the dragon.

Tim Smith
uucp: sdcrdcf!ism780!tim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 13:43:53 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Pern (dragons) and Re: fantasy
Cc: Dani Zweig <haste#@andrew.cmu.edu>

Dani Zweig (haste#@andrew.cmu.edu) writes:
> OK, it's time someone gave away the secret....  [[ lots of
> semi-reasonable stuff ommitted ]] ....For this reason, the Red
> Star is surrounded by a cloud of spores at a considerable distance
> out.  Pern passes near enough to this cloud to draw the spores
> away from the Red Star.  Any other questions?

Yes.  First, let me reiterate some facts: Thread attacks come every
few days (three at the beginning of a "pass" and more frequently
towards the middle).  The time that the Red Star is in a position to
cause the threads spans 50 "turns".  Now I assume that a "turn" is a
Pernese year, right?  Well, everyone seems to assume that the Red
Star is in an eccentric (comet-like) orbit around Pern's Sun
(Rukbat?).  If this is the case, then it must have an orbital period
of 250 turns, according to the facts in the book (200 turns,
usually, between attacks, attacks last for 50 turns).  So why aren't
the threads' attacks seasonal during the 50 turns?  If the Red Star
is orbiting so slowly, then the cloud should only intersect with
Pern in one section of Pern's orbit.  Is the cloud big enough to
encompass all of Pern's orbit?  Wouldn't that be on the order of 180
million miles across?  Or do the spores get "stuck" in the upper
atmosphere and rain down when they please?  That doesn't sound right
either, since they came down in a predictable pattern (a pattern
that was altered by other planets' gravitational influence).

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 19:19:48 GMT
From: charon!cs1551bb@rutgers.edu (Brian Bowers)
Subject: Re: Pern Money

Pern money is issued by the crafthalls.  The value of such "marks"
would be set at the Gathers, through barter.  Thus any reference to
"...and smithcraft at that..." would simply show that smithcraft
marks were stronger at that time, probably due to scarcity.  (See,
the smart craftmaster would severely limit the number of marks
issued from his craft, to push their value up with regard to other
marks :^)

   Of course, the harpers would be imminently capable of discovering
which marks are of the most value at any given time, through the
network of journeymen harpers.  Given that, there is ample reason to
think that Piemur would know that smithcraft marks were high in
value (especially considering his network of connections).

   If I'm wrong in this, please let me know.

Brian Bowers
cs1551bb@charon.unm.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Mar 87 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #108
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 87 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #108
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Terminology (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 09:10 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: SCI-FI vs. S.F.
Cc: reed!tim@rutgers.edu (T. Russell Flanagan)

To Russell Flanagan: I know I'm a newcomer to Star Trek fandom,
having only been involved in it since 1974, but one of the first
things the older fans instructed me on when I got into it, was the
difference between a "Trekkie" and a "Trekker."  And even reading
the older fanzines, I don't recall seeing fans refer to themselves
as "Trekkies" although I see it in news articles from the beginning
on.  When, in your recollection, was "Trekker" introduced?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 20:23:08 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Fanspeak: is there a glossary?

OK, being only on the periphery of fandom (sort of the fannish
equivalent of a "heathen", I guess :-)), I'm familiar with a few of
the terms, but only a few (e.g., I know "fen" and "tanstaafl" but
didn't realize "ghod" was of fannish origin).

Is there a Great Communicator (you may take this as you wish) out
there willing to spill the beans to a semi-mundane?  Can someone
post a list of fannish terms?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 15:13:29 EST
From: "Wm. L. Ranck" <RANCK%VTVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF vs Sci-Fi etc.

   Personally I like the term Speculative Fiction with the
abbreviation to SF.  This covers the whole blue-magenta-red spectrum
and you can avoid arguing over things like FTL drive being 'science
fiction' or 'fantasy'.  Just now I'm inclined to view FTL as
fantasy, but my view might change, but in any case it's still SF.
Please, no long arguments about why FTL drives aren't fantasy,
unless you got the genuine article in your garage it's not that
important.

   I don't really mind if you want to call me a 'trekkie' or a
'trekker' just don't call me a 'fan'.  The term fan, to me conjures
up visions of some slobbering twit with no critical sense at all.

Bill Ranck
BITNET: RANCK@VTVM1

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 16:01 CDT
From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: terminology:  sci-fi/sf, trekker/trekkie

>   Believe it or not, there actually *are* accepted ways of using
>abbreviations, both in speech and writing, which are not limited to
>the realm of science fiction (SF).  ...
>   I *do*, however, dislike the Sci-Fi term, for reasons previously
>explained by people like Chuq.

Joel is quite right.  Accepted form would be to refer in speech to
"science fiction", and in writing, if an abbreviation is desired, to
"SF" (so chosen because it's shorter than "sci-fi", and is a
standard form).  "Sci-fi" is such an unattractive term by now, with
all of its pejorative connotations.

>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).

I don't feel like I fall into either class.  I can understand the
desire to disassociate oneself from "Star Trek groupies".  I've
always called myself a "Trekkie" (when I feel the need for
self-labeling, which isn't often).  The main distinction I've always
seen between "Trekkies" and "Trekkers" is that "Trekkers" are more
interested in the technological aspects of the Star Trek system.  I
don't care a whit for Nichelle Nichol's astrological sign (I don't
even care about my own), or about William Shatner's high school
grades.  I do care about why the characters in the show behave as
they do.  If James Kirk got an A in French in the ninth grade, and
that perhaps sparked an interest in something which made him what he
"is" today, then I'd like to know about it.

I can't say that I watch the cartoons, but I do read the fan books
(that's not really a comment on the cartoons, I'd just rather read
than watch TV).  I've forgotten the reference (and of course I'm not
at home, so I can't look it up), but the book about Spock, that had
him going back in time to deal with the sehlat, and meet his younger
self, was fascinating.  We got a glimpse into what formed the
character Spock.  So, what distinctions do other people make between
the fan groups?  (By the way, you do realize that the "Star Trek
groupies" will start calling themselves "Trekkers".  I've never
actually met a Star Trek groupie - do they really exist?  Has anyone
actually met one?  I don't mean has a friend of a friend met one, I
want to know if anyone has actually met and conversed with a real
live ST groupie?)

Eleanor
evans%ngstl1@ti-eg.csnet
evans%ngstl1%ti-eg@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 22:30:23 GMT
From: watdragon!hwarkentyne@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: abbreviations and jargon

R.J. Rudden complained about posters who use unreferenced
abbreviations and I agree with his complaint.  I would also like to
add that mysterious "fan" jargon does not help make articles
comprehensible either. So please, try not to get carried away with
the buzz-words and the abbreviations.

Thanks,
Ken Warkentyne

------------------------------

Date: Wed 18 Mar 87 18:10:08-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: "trufen"/"serfen"/etc.

     The sort of egotism that creates the subject terminology is the
primary thing that is wrong with many SF cons AND leads to the
public perception of SF people as a collection of glassy-eyed geeks.

     If you detest the concept of media fen, then you are just as
guilty of all the prejudice, slander, and ignorance of many of the
general public show toward SF fans.

     Instead of treating Trekkies as a lower form of life, try,
GENTLY, to expose them to other forms of fandom.  "Gee, if you like
STAR TREK try reading *** -- I think you'll like it."  Don't
consider him/her/it a raging idiot because he/she/it can't recite
the title of every book Asimov has ever written...

     You might just discover that some nice people happened to stop
by your "sci-fi convention" because they liked STAR WARS, and
because you took the trouble to be nice you have made some new
friends...maybe even some new "serfen"...

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 21:00:40 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: fanspeak

gsmith@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>I do not take every excuse to jump on hapless mundanes and neo-fen
>>for their well-meaning but ignorant use of the phrase "sci-fi".
>  What about people like me who sometimes use the term to annoy
>people like you?

Fine with me. It doesn't annoy me at all, though, so you may be
disappointed... There should have been a :-) in the sentence quoted
from me above; I do not consider such people "hapless" and
"ignorant" in any kind of perjorative sense. (Plenty of people
simply don't know that some of us prefer not to use the term
"sci-fi"; they are ignorant of this fact, but that doesn't mean
they're ignorant in the wider, more usual sense (== stupid)).
Apologies if I was unclear.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 01:42:26 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: fanspeak

cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes:
>Is there a Great Communicator (you may take this as you wish) out
>there willing to spill the beans to a semi-mundane?  Can someone
>post a list of fannish terms?

Well, since I started this whole thing... I'm no Great Communicator
(chirp bleep ooo-weee-ooo), nor do I know of any glossary (actually
I think I'd prefer to pick it up as I run across it). I've learned
most of the fanspeak I know from reading filksongs (yes, I will
define this word, hang on a minute).  Since I don't have a glossary,
the best I can do is give you here such a filksong, written to play
with the language. We used to sing this at filksings in my college
club, and I would translate afterwards... A complete glossary
follows the song. I have no sources for these definitions, I just
picked them up here & there...

Filksong: a song about or somehow related to science fiction,
   fantasy, fandom, etc. Often written to the tune of an existing
   song, but many original tunes exist as well. The word originated
   as a misprint for "folksong". To filk is to sing a filksong, or
   sometimes to write one. A filksing is a gathering for filksong
   singing; a filkbook (sometimes called a hymnal) is a songbook of
   filksongs.

And now, the song. This was written by George Flyn, according to the
filkbook of my old club. I don't know where they got it, and I do
not know anything about the author.

Fanserwacky
to the tune of Greensleeves
by George Flyn

'Twas fannish, and the Big-Name Fen
Had locs and illos in each zine;
All croggled were the faneds then,
And the neos were green.

"Beware the FIAWOL, my son,
The ties that bind you to fanac;
Beware the concom's lure, and shun
The role of letterhack!"

He set his beanie on his head,
Long time sought he for egoboo,
"For apathy surely cannot be
The fannish thing to do!"

And as in smoffish thought he stood
An idea thrilled him to the core:
"I'll fill a zine with feuds, and plunge
All fandom into war!"

He wrote it down, and round and round
The mimeo went clitter-clack.
And when they read what he had said,
Two hundred locs came back.

"And hast thuo pubbed the ish at last?
Come to my con, my fannish boy!
Goshwow! By Ghu! Corflu, corflu!"
He filksang in his joy.

'Twas fannish, and the Big=name Fen
Had locs and illos in each zine;
All croggled were the faneds then,
And the neos were green.

The Glossary:

fannish: you know, like us. Undefinable.
fen: plural of "fan".

Big-Name Fen: Often abbreviated "BNF", the big-name fen are the
   widely known fen, very active in fandom; the sort of people who
   win the Best Fanzine Hugo (see "zine" below) and get selected as
   delegates to other continents by the Trans- Atlantic and
   Down-Under Fan Funds. Don't know any myself...
locs: Letters Of Comment
illos: illustrations
zine: short for "fanzine", short for "fan magazine". Publishing
   small (sometimes not-so-small) personal "zines" is a
   long-standing tradition in fandom. Such zines may contain
   anything from personal news to reviews to anything at all,
   really... In a lot of filksongs I have seen, publishing a zine is
   more or less equated with being a true, active fan. (Please don't
   flame me for this, I've never put one out myself and I had
   nothing to do with it!) There is an annual Hugo award for Best
   Fanzine.
croggled: impressed, astounded. Probably related to "boggled".
faned: fan editor. One who edits or puts out a fanzine.
neo: someone new to science fiction and fandom. Usually "neo-fan".
green: green jealous, you know. This one's not even fannish!
FIAWOL: acronym for "Fandom Is A Way Of Life", a philosophy that
   some live by. Compare FIJAGDH, "Fandom Is Just A God-Damned
   Hobby".
fanac: fan activity, fannish activity
concom: convention committee. The people who organize and put on a
   convention.
letterhack: Someone who continually writes letters to zines, both
   fanzines and prozines (professional magazines, like F&SF and
   Asimov's). Any rec.arts.comics people, think of T. M. Maple.
beanie: For some reason, the propellor beanie is enshrined as the
   traditional headgear of the true fan. I don't know why.
   I belive that this image is several years out of date: say
   maybe thirty... I have seen people wearing them at conventions
   once or twice, though.
egoboo: short for "ego boost". An ego boost is when someone whom
   everyone respects says something good about you, for example.
smof: acronym for "Secret Master Of Fandom". I don't know exactly
   what a smof is; I guess it's too secret.
feuds: Fandom, especially publishing fandom, is filled with feuds,
   or has often been in the past. (Again, I am not involved in fan
   publishing, and everything I say about it should be read with
   that in mind; my impressions may be mistaken.) A feud starts up
   when A says something that B doesn't like, and B replies (or
   storms off in a huff), you know. Like flame wars. I believe that
   in the very early days of fandom feuds sometimes split the
   community terribly, with people not speaking to each other for
   years. Try a good history of fandom for info; I know they exist
   but I've never read one...

mimeo: It used to be that the true fan ("trufan") was
   identifiable by the bluish tinge of mimeo ink indelibly soaked
   into his hands.  With the rise of personal computers, this image
   (and the line of the song) is becoming outdated, I suppose...
pubbed: published
ish: issue, of a fanzine
Goshwow: one word. The traditional exclamation of the neo, upon
   first encountering science fiction and fandom.
Ghu: along with Roscoe, a fannish god. I have no idea of their
   origin, and would really like to know where these names came
   from, if anyone out there can help me.
corflu: correcting fluid. A necessity for anyone publishing
   something on a mimeo machine.

Phew. There 'tis. Enjoy!

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu (NOT locus.ucla.edu now!)
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 23:55:20 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Fannish jargon (was Re: Convention discussion)

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>genre, start to work out what these ridiculous terms mean they end
>up getting changed, fans -> fen , trekky -> trekker , conference ->
>con

Which reminds me...  I hate the term "fen".  "Fan" was originally
short for "fanatic".  Though I go to cons (sorry, conferences and
conventions :^)) and am involved in fan clubs and sf discussion
groups, I dislike calling myself a fanatic of anything.  Sometimes I
do because the people I'm talking to are used to the terms...  But
if the plural of "fanatic" is "fanatics", the plural of the short
form "fan" should be "fans".  You're free to call yourselves what
you like, but "fans" is the term I am happy with, and I resent the
people that go around saying that "fen" is THE CORRECT TERM.  Ugh.

Hey.  After all, these are all just short forms, to make discussing
things amongst "those who know" a bit simpler.  Many fans seem now
to be using "fannish jargon" to excude others.  I guess I'm just not
interested in doing that.

>We are adults aren't we if they start to insult us or look upon
>science fiction with disdain why do we have to circle the wagons
>and start to snipe back at them with our stupid, cliquey jargon.

Exactly!  (Bravo!)  It's okay to have our own language if we feel we
need it, but why does it have to be used as a nose to look down?

> Just out of interest. If somebody came up to you and asked you why
>you read sci-fi how would you respond.

I like adventure.  I like reading about possibilities that aren't
covered by our history texts.  I like characters that aren't buried
in human tradition.  There's so much ROOM out there, so much space
to explore, and while I can understand the value in exploring what
we can reach, I have chosen to do my exploring elsewhere.  As to WHY
I like these things...  I don't know.  Somewhere along the line I
was taught to use my imagination to its fullest.  And now I find
that the worlds of SF, unlike most of the worlds of "mundane"
fiction, has ROOM for my imagination.  That won't stop me from
reading elsewhere - but it creates a guideline I can follow, for
entertainment and education.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Mar 87 1008-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #109
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 87 1008-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #109
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:

         Books - McCaffrey (4 msgs) & Red Sonja (3 msgs) &
                 Recommendations (3 msgs) & The Year in Review

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 00:01:35 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Pern Money

dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>P.S.  About the Pern books: did anyone notice that it wasn't until
>somewhere in the Harperhall (sub)trilogy that money was even
>mentioned.  The first two books (and maybe one of the Harperhall
>books) did not mention money at all.

At the time the events of DRAGONFLIGHT occurred, the dragonriders
didn't have much NEED of money (though it was getting close).  They
got most of what they needed from the tithes the Holders owed them
for their protection.  So naturally money wouldn't need to be
mentioned in those first three books, which were mostly about
Dragonriders and the Weyrs.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 87 00:37:23 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Lengths of turns (was and naming children on Pern)



COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>As far as I can tell, (I haven't re-read the books in a couple of
>years), turns on Pern seem roughly the same length as Terran years.
>Remember, at the beginning of the 1st book F'lar was probably in
>his early 20's, and it seems later that he's somewhere in his 40's
>- not "aged" yet, but certainly not as young as he used to be.

I read in the FORT FACT PACK, published by Fort Weyr (a Pern club),
that Pern years were LONGER than Earth years.  In fact, I believe
the sentence started with "We know that...", rather than "We're
assuming that..." or anything else that vague.  I don't have any
idea where they got the information from, but they are affiliated
with "Pern fandom at large".  Perhaps the whole organization has
been assuming this fact for some time.  Anyway, if we assume that
human medical technology was quite advanced by the time Pern was
colonized, it seems possible that humans might live for a good
length of time without becoming frail, as long as they don't die off
from some Pern disease or something.  The longer years would also
explain why it seems that Jaxom ages quite fast (it would take him
the same amount of time as one would expect it to here, but the time
would be accounted for by a lower number...), but I tend to think
that's just the "time passes" that occurred between books - I don't
remember him growing up any quicker than I expected him to.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 22 March 1987, 13:00:09 EST
From: Brent Hailpern <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Pern

I believe that Jaxom's name is also a composition of his parents:
Fax and Gemma - perhaps the `F' was not chosen because Fax was truly
obnoxious.

Brent Hailpern
bth@ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 18:14:35 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Pern: Lengths of turns

The length of the year of an earthlike planet should be determined
almost totally by the color of the sun.  For any main-sequence star,
the color pretty much determines mass, temperature and luminosity
(well, actually vice versa) and hence the distance at which an
earthlike planet gets the right amount of radiation.  Distance and
mass pretty much determine the length of the year.

Specifically, if Pern's sun is *similar* in color to our own (there
are some indications that it is and no indications that it's not.  I
don't remember--are we *told* that it's a type G star?) then Pern's
year will be about the length of ours.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 07:03:20 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: RED SONJA

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>  It seems like you're only an REH Conan fan!  Red Sonja NEVER
>appears in any story with Conan written by Robert E. Howard.  "Red
>Nails" was with Valeria.  Red Sonja stories by REH take place in
>the 16th century and she is some type of mecenary and/or pirate ...

I haven't got the message this is in response to yet.  Anyway, I've
read some Howard stuff, and don't recall any Red Sonya.  He does
have some female along on a pirate ship, but she is hardly the Red
Sonya type.  This story was collected in a book called _The She
Devil_.  I thought it was rather poor advertising, myself.  The back
of the book leads you to think that she is some rip-roaring female
pirate.  Instead, she's more or less booty.  De Camp turned it into
a Conan story without too much problem (speaking of which, i'd be a
bit hesitant about calling de Camp a hack).

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 03:27:59 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: RED SONJA (the LAST word)

>As I recall, in REH there was no character known as Red Sonja. This
>was a creation by Roy Thomas, WHO IS NOT SOME COMIC BOOK WRITER
>WITH A SILLY IMAGINATION, based on a character known as Red Sonya,
>also by REH. Red Sonya was in stories that took place about the
>16th Century in Russia, well past Conan's time. The female
>character from the `Red Nails' story was eliminated and Red Sonja
>was written in when Thomas adapted it for the comic book. I don't
>know whether the rape scene happened to Red Sonya, because I have
>never read any of her stories as yet.

I am sitting typing this in with a copy of Red Sonja #1 (paperback)
in front of me, with an introduction by Roy Thomas (the book is by
David C. Smith and Richard L. Tierney).

"Red Nails" and Valeria have NOTHING to do with Red Sonja.

Red Sonya was in one story by Howard, "Shadow of the Vulture".

This story was adapted as a Conan story for Conan #23 by Roy Thomas.

The rape scene did not occur in the original.

According to Thomas, "... from my favorite modern work of
literature, William Butler Yeats' Cuchulain play 'On Baile's
Strand,' I took the vow which Yeats indirectly attributes to the
Celtic warrior-queen Aoife: 'He said a while ago that he heard Aoife
boast that she'd never but the one lover, and he the only man that
had overcome her in battle.'

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM
        INS_AKAA@JHUVMS
        INS_AKAA@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 87 09:28:04 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Red Sonja

From:   hpfcdq!mazina   (Daniel Mazina)
> Being a rather large fan of Robert E. Howard I must say that NO
> WHERE in the actual Conan books (the original ones, not the hack
> writer versions) does this incredible story ever appear. Conan
> meets Red Sonja and does follow her out of town in the beginning
> of 'Red Nails' but this story of being raped and having to be
> defeated in combat is completely unsupported.  Lets not slander
> REH's writing with some comic book writer's silly imagination.

I don't think anyone has made the claim that this "origin" of Red
Sonja was written by Howard. It is *completely* the work of the
comics writer (Roy Thomas, I believe).

> PS: For that matter, I believe 'Red Nails' is the only story Red
> Sonja even appears it. Now Belit was another matter altogather.

By the way, there is no character named "Red Sonja" in *any* of
Howard's stories. The character in "Red Nails" that you refer to was
Valeria, not Sonja. There was a character in a non-Conan story
called "Red Sonya" (note the spelling difference), and Roy Thomas
thought she'd be a good basis for a "female version of Conan". Thus
was Red Sonja born. The story with Red Sonya ("The Shadow of the
Vulture") took place in the Middle Ages and had nothing to do with
the Conan series, though Roy Thomas adapted it into a Conan story
for the comic book.

And Belit only appeared in one story, too --- "Queen of the Black
Coast".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 22:50:39 GMT
From: xanth!revell@rutgers.edu (James R Revell Jr)
Subject: Re: Help!...  Find me a good series please...

One of my favorite authors has to be Jack L. Chalker. He has a few
series I find very stimulating. If you enjoy one, you'll enjoy them
all!
   All are relating to subjects that are often secondary in
mainstream sf.

I. The Four Lords of the Diamond
II. Soul Rider
III. The Lords of the Middle Dark
IV. other series
   Most of these series are about 4 books long.

Another Author, Jason Scott Card, has a very intriquing set I
recommend.  "Enders Game", and the new followup novel.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 15:58:10 -0800
From: obrien@aero2.aero.org
Subject: Re: Help!  New fantasy recommendations

   Well, it happens that I can recommend two somewhat related
series.  The first, a classic in the field, is by Jack Vance:

   The Dying Earth
   The Eyes of the Overworld
   Cugel's Saga
   Rhialto the Marvellous

All are fun; the first is probably the best.  It's been around for a
lot of years and won the Hugo, I believe.  If it didn't it should
have.

   Because "The Dying Earth" has been around for a lot of years,
it's had time to influence other writers in the field, notably Gene
Wolfe.  Putting his own (rather darker) stamp on it, Mr. Wolfe came
up with one of the best novels I've ever read, "The Book of the New
Sun".  This has been published in four volumes, to wit:

   The Shadow of the Torturer
   The Claw of the Conciliator
   The Sword of the Lictor
   The Citadel of the Autarch

   No doubt about it, these books are hard to read.  To help out,
there's a small-press book of essays by Wolfe called "The Castle of
the Otter" (title from a misprint in Locus) which includes, among
other things, a glossary of the exotic terms in the first volume.
Wolfe invents no new words in this series, but has come up with some
awfully obsure old ones: "anpiel", "amschaspand" and "chiliarc" are
among my favorites.

   "The Book of the New Sun" is the greatest novel of redemption
that I have ever read.

Mike O'Brien
obrien@aerospace.aero.org
aero!obrien

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 87 20:50:31 PST
From: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM (Mike Kao)
Subject: Some recommendations

I just want to heartily recommend Raymond E. Feist's _Riftwar Saga_.
It is one great series. Has anyone talked to this guy? He lives
right in San Diego!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 03:46:03 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: 1986:  the year in review

Publishers Weekly just came out with its 1986 year in review, and I
thought I'd summarize the point that might be interesting to you
folks out there.

In 1986, a total of 42,793 different titles were published, down
from 50,070 in 1985.  Fiction accounted for 4,877 titles, down from
5,106.  Fiction was not broken down by category, unfortunately.

Hardcover prices for volumes under $81 (to keep very high priced
books from skewing) were basically stable.  Overall, prices went
from $26.57 in 1985 to $26.61.  In fiction, pricing went from $15.24
to $15.82. Mass Market paperback pricing went from $3.63 to $3.87,
with fiction going from $3.24 to $3.49.  Trade paperbacks went up
significantly: from $13.98 to $14.65, but fiction trade paperbacks
took a nosedive, from $13.66 to $8.50.

Total # of volumes (new, reprint, etc..) was also flat to slightly
down.  For hardback, it went from 30,104 to 25,561, and in fiction
from 1,799 volumes in 1985 to 1,766 volumes in 1986.  mass market
volume went from 3,807 to 3,632, with fiction dropping from 2,524 to
2,365.  Trade paperback went volumes plummetted from 15,075 in 1985
to 12,513 in 1986, while fiction volumes dropped from 726 to 700.

What's this all mean?  In general, there are slightly fewer titles
being published, in good part because of the continuing trend
towards a few megapublishers, but also because it is simply
impossible to publish 43,000 different titles in a given year and
have any chance of most of them suceeding.  Publishing continues to
be an insane business, where you spend 18 months getting a product
to market, and then ignore it because you're so busy with the other
37 products you're working on you have no time for it.  sigh.

Pricing is stable, except in the trade paperback world, which
(except for fiction) tends to be a little less price competitive.
Publishing is in a consolidation phase, and will probably continue
this way until the current takeover rage slows down.

Just to make sure everyone understands the terminology, a hardcover
is the cloth bound books, a mass market is the standard sized book
you buy at the supermarket or in the bookstore racks.  Trade
Paperbacks are everything paper or cardstock bound that is larger
than the normal paperback -- most computer books, for instance, fall
in this category.

The only really fascinating figures are the fiction trade paperback
area.  There seems to be a continuing resistance from the consumer
towards buying the larger (and pricier) trade paperbacks for
fiction.  Number of titles is down significantly, but more
importantly, average cost is down by over 1/3.  This means that
publishers have still not convinced people that buying the more
expensive books is worth it -- as an experiment to get people
unwilling to pay hardback prices to buy a better product, this looks
to have failed miserably.  I don't really think the publishers have
found a way to differentiate a trade paperback fiction book from a
mass market paperback in a way to justify the price difference.
Personally, with very few exceptions, I doubt they will be able to,
either.

How did Science Fiction and Fantasy do this year?  Let's take a look
at the 1986 bestsellers.

In hardcover, the only book to make the 1986 top 15 for Publishers
Weekly was "It" by Stephen King.  It sold 1,206,266 copies in 1986.
Not a good year for category blockbusters in hardcover. Foundation
and Earth by Asimov placed 18th with 170,000 copies, Mordant's Need:
The Mirror of Her Dreams by Donaldson was 23 (140,000), The Songs of
Distant Earth was 25th (135,000), and Fortune of Fear #5 by Hubbard
placed 30 with 111,638.  Other titles with sales greater than
100,000 included: Magic Kingdom for sale: Sold! by Terry Brooks, and
three of the other four Hubbard books: #2, #3, and #4.

Parenthetically, Ernest Hemmingway's book, Garden of Eden, was
sandwiched between Donaldson's and Clarke's books at 137,000 copies.
For some reason, this bothers me, but I don't know why...

In the trade paperback world, there were three books that sold more
than 200,000 copies.  They were the three Dragonlance volumes from
TSR: War of the Twins (391,000), Time of the Twins (364,000) and
Test of the Twins (354,000), all by Weis and Hickman. TSR also
scored with Grayhawk adventures #2, Artifact of Evil by Gary Gygax
(150,000). Writer's of the Future Volume II (Bridge) sold 82,000,
Mists of Avalon by Bradley sold 80,000, and Wishsong of Shannara by
Brooks sold 55,000.

In the Mass Market section, there was Stephen King (Thinner,
3,136,000; Skeleton Crew, 2,834,000; Talisman (with peter Straub),
2,690,000; and The Bachman Books, 2,000,000 [which ALSO sold 50,000
in trade paperback]) and there was the rest of the category: Jean
Auel re-issued Clan of the Cave Bear and sold 4,945,000 and also
sold 2,970,000 of The Mammoth Hunters. The only two other category
books to top 1,000,000 sales were Contact by Carl (yes, I really did
write it) Sagan at 1,298,000 copies, and Strangers, by Dean Koontz
at 1,100,000.

What's all this say?  If you want a block buster hit, change your
name.  Or write horror.  Or both.  It also points out that there is
a growing market for what is being called Mass Market hardcovers --
people are breaking down their resistance to paying the higher price
for the hardcover books.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Mar 87 1018-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #110
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 87 1018-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #110
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Mar 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:

             Films - Quatermain (3 msgs) & War Games &
                     War of the Worlds & Spaceballs &
                     Man Facing Southeast & 
                     Forbidden Planet (2 msgs)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 87 11:12:01 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain

ostroff@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jack H. Ostroff) writes:
>>... One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and ...
>
>I think you mean "Quatermass and the Pit."  I believe they are
>totally unrelated.  I also believe the Quatermass movies were
>discussed on this list several months ago (perhaps longer).

There is absolutely no relation between the two.Alan Quatermain is
the main character in the novel "King Solomon's Mines" by H.Rider
Haggard and is a pretty similar to Indiana Jones.Professor
Quatermass was a creation of Nigel Kneale,and there were 3 (I think)
films made from the books.The final book was eventually made into a
TV serial in Britain,starring John Mills if I am not mistaken,and a
pretty doomladen affair that is (like a very downbeat Childhood's
End).

jml

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 08:06:32 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Alan [sic] Quatermain

First of all, I was chagrined to note that my earlier posting on the
subject said:

> It's quite possible that the script he first saw wasn't all that
> bad, but ended up going through so many revisions that whatever
> hypothetical worth existed was exorcised completely.

I meant "excised".

From:   puff!williams   (Karen Williams)
> I haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain Alan Quatermain movies yet,
> but I was wondering if they bore any relation at all to the series
> of Quatermain (yes, I mean Quatermain not Quartermain) movies that
> were made in the fifties-sixties. One of these was called
> "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were about five of them. The
> one I saw had a spaceship found buried in London, that had once
> contained aliens that looked like grasshoppers. If anyone knows
> anything about any of this, please let me know so I'll know, too.
> Thanks.

Not even close. I don't mean to be a pedant, but...

(1) You got the spelling of "Quatermain" correct, but the first name
is spelled "Allan".

(2) The Richard Chamberlain movies are based on the character
created by Sir Henry Rider Haggard in the late 19th Century. The
first of the Chamberlain films, KING SOLOMON'S MINES is based on the
classic novel of the same title. The second film is supposedly (but
I can't confirm, since I haven't seen it) based on ALLAN QUATERMAIN,
the sequel to KSM.

(3) The British film series you refer to is not about Allan
Quatermain, but Bernard Quatermass. The names are even pronounced
differently. The first syllable of Allan's surname has a short "a"
(so that it rhymes with "squat"); the first syllable of Bernard's
has a long "a" (so that it rhymes with "weight").

(4) I won't bother with details about the Quatermass film series,
since Evelyn Leeper has done so already.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 87 18:01:26 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Alan Quatermain

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>One of these was called "Quatermain and the Pit," and there were
>about five of them. The one I saw had a spaceship found buried in
>London, that had once contained aliens that looked like
>grasshoppers.

Gee, I saw a movie with the same plot, one of my all time favorites,
only it was called "Five Million Years to Earth", and had no
character called "Alan Quatermaine".

Perhaps you're confusing him with Stuart Damon's character "Dr. Alan
Quartermaine" on General Hospital. ( B{), in case you couldn't
guess).

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  5 Mar 87  17:12:11 EST
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: The origin of War Games.

I haven't seen the movie, but a freind of mine tells me that "War
Games" is based on an actual incident. Some kid was hacking around,
and had gotten into some computer somewhere that dialed him up to
another one higher up, and so on, until he wound up in the main
defense computer at NORAD. He didn'tt realize this until he got this
on his screen:

WHICH SILOS WOULD YOU LIKE TO ACTIVATE FOR LAUNCH? _

or something like that. The kid looked at this, realized what it
probably was, took his hands off the keyboard, picked up the other
phone, and called the FBI. It took him a while to get anyone to
believe him, but there were 11 cars in the driveway in a very short
time. The CIA was also there, as were the SAC, the Army, and all
sorts of people. They were not pleased to find how easy it had been
for him to break in there, but the kid was commended for having the
presence of mind to not touch the keyboard and to call the FBI,
rather than trying to get out of it and doing the wrong thing. There
could not have been an actual launch, as the codes would not have
come through; there would just have been a hell of a lot of
confusion at NORAD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 14:26 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: 2 Welles and a Pal

For total clarity:
'War of the Worlds' - A novel by H.G. Wells
'War of the Worlds' - A paranoia inducing radio show from 1938
produced by Orson Welles' Mercury Theater.  He and his troupe went
on to make the classic SF film 'Citizen Kane' (hee hee).
'War of the Worlds' - A film by George Pal.  One interesting point
on this is that George Pal realized the potential for SF decades
before Lucas and Spielberg came along.  The effects in WOTW are
pretty damned impressive.  Pal's interest in intelligent SF was also
shown in his films such as 'When Worlds Collide', which he was in
the process of trying to remake before his death.  Pal also
contributed significantly to the field of animation with his beloved
Puppetoons in the Nineteen Forties.  What a guy.

Another interesting point is that the martian war machines, heat
rays and all, appeared in the 1980 Japanese film 'Be Forever
Yamato'.  For no apparent reason, the alien invaders in this movie
wander around Earth's cities in giant tripod ships!  It's great!

Dan Parmenter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Mar 87 10:48:21 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Mel Brooks making an SF movie

From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Friday, 6 Mar 87:

MEL BROOKS AIMS AT OUTER SPACE by Bob Thomas of the Associated Press

Culver City, CA
After a five-year absence, His Royal Madness Mel Brooks is once more
reigning on a movie set.

Having already sent up Westerns ("Blazing Saddles"), horror ("Young
Frankenstein"), suspense ("High Anxiety"), and epics ("History of
the World, Part I"), Brooks is now doing a number on space movies.

His new movie is called "Spaceballs", and the production has
commandeered a large number of the stages on the Lorimar
Telepictures lot.

The other day Brooks was working on Stage 30, which contained the
command post of the universe's largest space vehicle -- it will take
the length of the film credits to pass before the screen. Brooks was
directing a scene in which Rick Moranis, in cape and huge black
headpiece as the infamous Dark Helmet, flies through the air.

The trick scene required preparations by a small army of
technicians.  "I am the victim of G forces; this is the part of
making movies that I don't enjoy," said Brooks.

He prefers working with comic actors instead of special effects, and
he has a rich array in "Spaceballs". The leads are newcomers Bill
Pullman, as the space bum Lone Starr,and Daphne Zuniga as "Her
Spoiled Highness" Princess Vespa, daughter of Roland, King of the
Druids, played by Dick Van Patten.

After finally getting Rick Moranis airborne, Brooks paused to
explain why five years elapsed between "History of the World" and
"Spaceballs".

"Well, I have been busy. I made 'To Be or Not to Be' with my wife
(Anne Bancroft), though I didn't direct it. Most of all, I have been
getting my company, Brooksfilms, in operation. We've made some very
interesting pictures: 'The Elephant Man', 'Frances', 'My Favorite
Year', 'The Fly', and '84 Charing Cross Road'. That has taken a lot
of time and effort, but I felt it was worth it."

Are there any movie genres left for Brooks to attack?

"I don't know. I just about ruined them all," he replied. "Let's
see, what could I do next?"

"What I'd like to do is a movie about where the real money is made
in the film business: the concession stand. That's why they build
multiplexes with 16 theaters. The concession stands are always busy,
and the things they sell aren't cheap.

"Theater owners don't like my pictures because there's no time for
the audience to get popcorn. So in 'Spaceballs' I'm throwing a love
scene in the middle, and everyone under 20 can go to the concession
stand."

***End of Article***

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 87 19:51:27 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: MAN FACING SOUTHEAST

          MAN FACING SOUTHEAST (HOMBRE MIRANDO AL SUDESTE)
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper
                   Copyright 1987 Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review: A serious science fiction film from
     Argentina has a psychiatrist faced with a Christ-like patient
     who claims to be an alien.  This is a film with a lot to say
     about psychiatry, hunger, charity, and religion.  With that
     much to say it is, perhaps, over-ambitious.  It does not do
     everything right but what is right is worth seeing.

     Argentina is not one of the countries one generally expects to
be making science fiction films.  It has had a film industry for
quite a long time--as anyone who has heard EVITA knows--but their
films seem rarely seem to get international play and do not seem to
have much fantasy, in any case.  Yet Argentina has a heritage of
literary fantasy led until his recent death by Jorge Luis Borges.
Borges's influence can be felt in a new fantasy science fiction film
from Argentina, MAN FACING SOUTHEAST.  The film combines elements of
THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH and ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST.

     The main character of MAN FACING SOUTHEAST is a psychiatrist in
an insane asylum.  Dr. Denis is disturbed by his inability to really
help his patients and by the asylum's callous and factory-like
treatment of patients.  One patient's fantasy, incidentally, is an
uncredited enactment of the painting "The Lovers" by Magritte.  But
a new patient appears at the asylum one day, committing himself.  It
is Rantes's apparent delusion that he is an extra-terrestrial sent
to Earth on a mission.  He commits himself voluntarily because he
knows society would only commit him more forcibly if he did not.

     Rantes sees the suffering and pain around him and the
selfishness of the comfortable.  In a number of scenes he turns the
tables.  But Dr. Denis is the real center of the story.  Facing
pressure to drug Rantes out of what may or may not be an illusion
(actually the audience knows which but the doctor does not), Denis
sees himself as Pontius Pilate, being forced to crucify another
Jesus.  As more patients at the asylum become disciples of Rantes,
the pressures increase on the bewildered psychiatrist to fulfill his
role as the later-day Pilate.

     MAN FACING SOUTHEAST is an intelligent science fiction film
that needs no special effects.  It is at once a cry of social
despair, a philosophical essay, and a science fiction story.  If
anything it tries to be too much and spreads itself too thin; often
it gives way to cliche.  Yet in many ways it is comparable to THE
MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT and if the Argentine industry follows the same
path the British did, we can hope to see a lot more good films from
it in the future.  Rate MAN FACING SOUTHEAST a +2 on the -4 to +4
scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 10:48 CST
From: <DAVIDLI%SIMVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (System Manager)
Subject: Forbidden Planet is NOT The Tempest

paaaaar@calstate.bitnet writes:
>(2)"Forbidden Planet" is clearly Shakespeare's "Tempest" minus the
>humor.

   I don't know about the rest of you, but I have actually READ
Shakespeare's "The Tempest".  If the creators of "Forbidden Planet"
said they got the idea from the play, they must have been reading
the Cliff's Notes commentary. (Or the advertisers were really stuck
on getting English Literature majors to see a "science fiction"
film.  Great for high-school classes covering the classics - just go
see the movie!)

   There is as much correlation between DUNE and Shakespeare's
"Julias Caesar".  Is anyone seriously suggesting that Frank Herbert
copped his story from old William's notes?  [Correlations: they both
deal with issues of power in high places, treachery of friends, ...]

   Shakespeare's plays cover a WIDE range of human problems,
foibles, aspirations, fears.  Science Fiction/Fantasy/Speculative
Fiction also deal with the same issues (not necessarily from a
"human" viewpoint either!).  There is bound to be some overlap in
themes.

Dave Meile
davidli@simvax.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 20:27:33 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: Forbidden Planet is TOO The Tempest

DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.BITNET writes:
>    I don't know about the rest of you, but I have actually READ
>Shakespeare's "The Tempest".  If the creators of "Forbidden Planet"
>said they got the idea from the play, they must have been reading
>the Cliff's Notes commentary.

Excuse me: I, too, have read "The Tempest"; quite often, in fact.
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if *many* readers of sf have also
read "The Tempest", since it's one of Shakespeare's few fantasies.
So don't go gettin' so high-falutin' with us, OK?

I would think it obvious that the creators of "Forbidden Planet"
*did* get the idea from "The Tempest", the similarities are so
strong.  Perhaps your problem is that you're looking for too close a
correlation.  But try this:

Both stories involve castaways being found by a ship.  The castaways
consist of a father and his daughter; the daughter has never seen
any human other than her father and she naturally falls in love with
someone from the ship.  The father is a wonder-worker, served by two
beings, a faithful servant and a monster, both of whom are left to
him by the previous inhabitant(s) of the "island".  The father
cannot control the monster as well as he can the faithful servant.

If this is a "Cliff's Notes"-level correlation, fine, so be it.  But
it's there, nonetheless.

>    There is as much correlation between DUNE and Shakespeare's
> "Julias Caesar".  Is anyone seriously suggesting that Frank
> Herbert copped his story from old William's notes?  [Correlations:
> they both deal with issues of power in high places, treachery of
> friends, ...]

I don't see the same level of correlation between DUNE and "Julius
Caesar" as I do between "Forbidden Planet" and "The Tempest", and I
don't recall anyone, other than yourself, suggesting *any*
correlation between DUNE and "Julius Caesar".  Knocking over a straw
man won't win your argument here!

>    Shakespeare's plays cover a WIDE range of human problems,
> foibles, aspirations, fears.  Science Fiction/Fantasy/Speculative
> Fiction also deal with the same issues (not necessarily from a
> "human" viewpoint either!).  There is bound to be some overlap in
> themes.

True, but I cannot recall another work that will match the
description I gave above.  If there is another such work, I would
suspect that it, too, was inspired by "The Tempest".

Don't be so goddamned literal-minded!  Sheesh!

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 Mar 87 1030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Mar 87 1030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:

             Books - Post Holocaust Stories (14 msgs) &
                     Recommendations (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 22:48:09 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Novels--The List

Well, here it is.  This is the entire list that I have of
Post-Holocaust novels and short stories that were recommended to me
by people on the net.  I didn't include the descriptions of the
various works, but If you want a brief summary (as I got it
originally), just let me know and I will send it to you.  I know
that this list is far from complete, but it is a pretty good list, I
think.  I'll head the list with some that I have read and that
weren't mentioned by other people (at least in the articles I
managed to salvage).

The Pelbar Cycle--Paul O. Williams

A Canticle for Leibowitz --Miller

Now, for the rest of the list:

"The Judgement of Eve," by Edgar Pangborn

"Engine Summer," by John Crowley.

Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East trillogy:
   "The Broken Lands", "The Black Mountains", and "Changeling
    Earth".

The Postman    David Brin

False Dawn    Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

Alas Babylon   Somebody Frank or Frank Somebody

Of Mist, Grass and Sand     Vonda N. McIntyre

David R. Palmer.
     _Emergence_
     _Threshold_

Larry Niven's "Hammerfall"

John Dalmas _The_Yngling_
            _But_Mainly_By_Cunning

works of Edgar Pangborn

Michael Swanwick's _In the Drift_

Once again, thank you to all who sent (or re-sent) me their
favorites.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 23:00:11 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum

No sooner had I posted the list that I had when I came across
another list that someone had given me.  So, here it is:

   EARTH ABIDES by George R. Stewart
      [someone's already praised this on the net; I agree
        100%: this is a great book]
   ON THE BEACH by Nevil Shute [a classic]
   ALAS, BABYLON by Pat Frank
   EMERGENCE by David(?) Palmer
   DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS by John Wyndham
      [a good British TV version of this is currently playing here
      in LA]
   A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ by Walter Miller
   THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson
   RE-BIRTH or THE CHRYSALIDS by John Wyndham
   FISKADORO by ?? (published in '85 or '86)
   DAMNATION ALLEY by Zelazny (I think)
   THE POSTMAN by David Brin (last year's publication)
   the Tripods trilogy (THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, THE CITY OF
      GOLD AND LEAD, THE POOL OF FIRE) by John Christopher --
      these are really Post-Invasion stories, not
      Post-Holocaust, but they have some of the same feel.
   WORLDS APART, the 2nd book of the (supposedly) WORLDS
      trilogy by Haldeman, is not really a Post-Holocaust book
      but has some scenes of "the world just after the big bang"

   THE AMTRAK WARS by Patrick Tilley - anyone know if #3 is out yet ?
   HEIRO'S JOURNEY by Sterling Lanier
   THE DEATH OF GRASS
   THE WORLD IN WINTER
   WRINKLE IN THE SKIN
     - all by John Christopher (I think)
   LUCIFER'S HAMMER by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
     [oops, I lied; I've read this -- fun adventure]
   WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME by James(?) Kahn
     - part of a trilogy, can't remember the other ones

That should do it for now.  The list is pretty long.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 21:20:23 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Novels--The List

>Of Mist, Grass and Sand            Vonda N. McIntyre
>
>David R. Palmer.
>    _Emergence_
>    _Threshold_

"Of Mist, Grass and Sand" was the short story.  The book is
"Dreamsnake".  A rare example of bigger-is-better.

"Emergence" is a superb Post-Holocaust Novel.  Threshold is not
related, not post-holocaust, and not superb.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 22:43:58 GMT
From: fish@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Fishell)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum

I looked over both the lists, and I failed to notice a novella
titled "The House by the Crabapple Tree," which was one of the most
emotionally stunning pieces of "post-holocaust" SF I have ever read.
The trouble is, I cannot remember who wrote it.  It appeared in _The
Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction_ in the middle '60s, I
think, and I'm sure I've seen it anthologized somewhere.  I looked
for it in my collection of anthologies, though, and I couldn't find
it.

Anybody else out there remember this story?  Who wrote it, when?

Bob Fishell
ihnp4!ihlpa!fish

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 20:15:41 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Post Plague Holocaust Novels

> leonard@percival.UUCP (Leonard Erickson)
>> wyzansky@nadc
>>John Dalmas wrote _The_Yngling_, [...]  The main reason I am
>>bringing this up is that the book ends with an obvious hook for a
>>sequel.  Does anyone out there know if such a sequel has ever been
>>published?
>
> Yes.  Tor Books published "Homecoming" in September 1984.  I found
> a copy on the shelves of a bookstore only a few months ago.

Me too. (Though in my case, closer to a year ago.)

> It deals with an expedition from a colony cut off by the cessation
> of interstellar travel.  They have finally managed to build a
> starship and when they land on Earth they run into the Master of
> the "orcs" that Nils and company were fighting in the first
> book...

Right.  But I found the sequel very disappointing.  The original
posed some interesting thoughts, and Nils' constant state of
effortless ego-free satori was a fascinating premise.  But somehow
the sequel lost track of that, and was just a sort of muddled
adventure tale.  Not that I have anything against adventure tales,
muddled or not, but the original was something more, and whatever
the something was, the sequel lacked it.  Some of the problem was
that the resolution of the plot of "Homecoming" was rather arbitrary
and contrived for my tastes.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 01:20:38 GMT
From: 3comvax!michaelm@rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

For centuries-after-the-catastrophe stories, let's not forget
*Re-Birth* by John Wyndham.  I'm also fond of the *Maurai* series by
Poul Anderson, collected in *Maurai and Kith* and the long novel
*Orion Shall Rise*.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
(408) 970-1835 work
(408) 335-2069 home
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 19:16:59 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

I read a short novel awhile ago through the SF Book Club called
"Level Seven" that was about the inhabitants of a deep-below-the
surface missile command post before and after the big boom.  I
remember it as being not too bad. Anyone else?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 19:42:21 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum

 Was "There will come soft rains..." on the list? Do poems count?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 18:21:44 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

Let's not forget, unless of course I missed the posting and am now
being an idiot again,

   _Damnation Alley_

NOT the movie, tho' it was OK.  The book/story (novellette?) which
inspired the movie- they only are really similar in that the world
is very strange after a war many years ago (100?), there are
motorcycles and large very tough vehicles involved, etc. (remember
the Landmasters?  those suckers actually were built for the movie,
believe it or not- impressive monsters! :-) )

For the life of me I can't remember who wrote it!  Last seen in Joe
Haldeman's _Supertanks_ collection, but it's been around a while.

Incidentally, I remember in the movie the one guy WAS named Tanner.
WAS his first name "Hell", as in the book?

Good story.

Eric Carpenter

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 01:40:47 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>    _Damnation Alley_
>
>NOT the movie, tho' it was OK.  The book/story (novellette?) which
>inspired the movie- they only are really similar in that the world
>is very strange after a war many years ago (100?), there are
>motorcycles and large very tough vehicles involved, etc. (remember
>the Landmasters?  those suckers actually were built for the movie,
>believe it or not- impressive monsters! :-) )

I've noticed that a RolePlaying Game called "The Morrow Project" has
source material which deals with the Landmasters, as well as with
the science vehicle used on a Saturday morning live-action TV show
called (I believe) Earth I.  The second vehicle in question looked
like a cross between an M113 APC and a motorhome (it was white, and
had a detachable, but integrated, trailer).  Does anyone know
whether the game book, the movie and the TV show have any relation
to one another?

>For the life of me I can't remember who wrote it!  Last seen in Joe
>Haldeman's _Supertanks_ collection, but it's been around a while.
>
>Incidentally, I remember in the movie the one guy WAS named Tanner.
>WAS his first name "Hell", as in the book?

No it wasn't.  For better or worse the movie and book were almost
completely different.

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 05:46:34 GMT
From: charon!cs1551bb@rutgers.edu (Brian Bowers)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

I seem to recall seeing a book called _Damnation Alley_ written by
Roger Zelazny (sp?) though I've never claimed my memory was
infallible.

Brian Bowers
cs1551bb@charon.unm.edu

------------------------------

From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works
Date: 24 Mar 87 16:19:34 GMT

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>    _Damnation Alley_
>
>NOT the movie, tho' it was OK.

It was OK?  We musta been watching a different movie.  The very idea
of casting Jan Michael Vincent (there's a hyphen in there somewhere)
as "Hell" Tanner is an affront to the name of Zelazny, who, by the
way, now refuses to have any of his works filmed, specifically
BECAUSE of this film.

>The book/story (novellette?) which inspired the movie-

First, a short story; later a novel(ette?).

>they only are really similar in that the world is very strange
>after a war many years ago (100?), there are motorcycles and large
>very tough vehicles involved, etc. (remember the Landmasters?
>those suckers actually were built for the movie, believe it or not-
>impressive monsters! :-) )

Yep.  And those are ONLY similarities.

>Incidentally, I remember in the movie the one guy WAS named Tanner.
>WAS his first name "Hell", as in the book?

Yup.  You know right away when you shake his hand, 'cause it's
written on his knuckles (kinda like Eddie in Rocky Horror).

>Good story.

Damn straight.

Bill Kaufman
lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 18:01:01 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>>    _Damnation Alley_
>>
>>NOT the movie, tho' it was OK.
>
>It was OK?  We musta been watching a different movie.  The very
>idea of casting Jan Michael Vincent (there's a hyphen in there
>somewhere) as "Hell" Tanner is an affront to the name of Zelazny,
>who, by the way, now refuses to have any of his works filmed,
>specifically BECAUSE of this film.

Whoa there hoss!  I believe that George Peppard was named "Tanner"
in the movie, and Jan-Michael Vincent was his sidekick.

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 18:17:32 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

     I wrote asking/commenting:

>>    _Damnation Alley_
>>For the life of me I can't remember who wrote it!  Last seen in
>>Joe Haldeman's _Supertanks_ collection, but it's been around a
>>while.

 one reply :

> I seem to recall seeing a book called _Damnation Alley_ written by
> Roger Zelazny (sp?) though I've never claimed my memory was
> infallible.

  I was thinking Zelazny when I wrote the first post, but wasn't
sure- some how it seemed off.
  I checked- yes, it WAS Roger Zelazny who wrote the book.  And once
again, the movie resembled the book VERY little.  (Incidentally, I
used to have the specs for the Landmasters somewhere- gone now, I
guess...Anyone else have 'em?)

   Also, somebody mentioned "Earth I", a Sat. morn. kids show:
anyone remember "Ark II"?  (Note: I don't remember it as that good,
but I was young then)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 87 09:21:21 EST
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Fantasy Recommendation

     There are two really excellent books by L. Sprague DeCamp,
titled "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents".  The hero,
Harold Shea, is a psychologist.  In testing one of his boss's
theories, Harold winds up in the universe of Norse mythology-- just
in time for Ragnarok.  In the second half of the book, both he and
his boss wind up in Spenser's "Faerie Queen".  Finally (hmm... too
many halves!) the action shifts to the universe of "Orlando
Furioso", where Harold has to rescue the one-and-only that he
married in mid-book.  "Wall of Serpents" takes Harold, his firends,
and an unfortunate member of New York's Finest into the Finnish
"Kalevala"(?), and thence into Celtic myth.
   These might be a bit hard to find, I think they will be worth the
effort.  Not only do you get good stories, but you also get a broad
survey of various mythologies for much less than the price of
enrolling in Comp. Lit. 210.

Good Reading !
Dave Wegener

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 11:19 PST
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: RE: series

Here is a list of some series (serieses?) that are worth looking at.
I'm sorry but I did not list Zelazny, Lieber, Anthony, Heinlein,
Asimov, Tolkien, Norton, Burroughs, Lewis, etc. etc. (although all
are good at times).

Mckillip, Patricia
Riddle Master of He'd, Heir of Sea and Fire, Harpist in the Wind

Elgin, Suzette Hadin
Ozark Trilogy, and Coyote Jones series recently combined with her
book "The End of the Matter" (? title) Ozark: Twelve Fair Kingdoms,
The Grand Jubilee, And Then There'll be Fireworks Jones: 4 books,
one is, Star Anchored, Star Angered (5 with The_End_of_the_Matter)

Tepper, Sheri
Her True Game stories are excellent.
Trilogy 1:  King Blood's Four, Necromancer Nine, Wizard's Eleven
Trilogy 2:  Mavin the Manyshaped, The Flight of Mavin the Manyshaped,
            The search for Mavin the Manyshaped
Trilogy 3:  Jinoin Footseer, Dervish Daughter, Jinoin Star-eye

Schmitz, James H
Telzey Amberdon, Telzey Toy and other Stories, The Lion Game

Abbey, Lynn
Daughter of the Bright Moon, The Black Flame

McAvoy, R. A.
Damiano, Damiano's Lute, Raphael

Friesner, Esther M.
A new series with 2 out of 9 published.  one is "Mustapha and his
Wise Dog" The series is sort of an arabian nights type setting and
atmosphere.  She writes entertainingly.

Lee, Tanith - any series, anything.
Flat Earth series (5 books) arabian nightish
Four Bee novels (2 books) sort of something SF,
     (dissatisfied utopians)
Birthgrave (3 books) heroic fantasy type

Schmidt, Dennis
Way-Farer is the start of a series and it was good.

Has somebody else read anything that was not first published over 10
years ago :-)?  Were the books good, bad, entertaining?

lance
lance@logicon.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 Mar 87 1052-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #112
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Mar 87 1052-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #112
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Decompression (4 msgs) &
                              Stardrives & Cons & 
                              Teleportation (4 msgs) &
                              Time Travel  (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 19:59:51 GMT
From: cblpe!bcm@rutgers.edu (Bob Morman)
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) writes:
>> If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
>> what is the result ?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not
>> good, :-), but what is it that kills you ?
>
>All the air rushes out of your lungs FAST.  You shouldn't have any
>problems if your mouth is open.
>
>You run low on oxygen in your blood, and pass out.
>
>Your blood starts to boil.  You die.
>
>Depending on your nearness to a sun, your body gets baked/frozen.

I though you would explode due to the fact that there is no pressure
in outer space, thus nothing to counter your internal pressure. Like
trying to bring a deep deep sea fish to the surface, it will explode
before you get it out of the water.

Bob Morman
AT&T Bell Labs
Columbus, OH.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 02:57:23 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: What gets you first ?

>If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
>what is the result ?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not
>good, :-), but what is it that kills you ?

Clarke believes that it's possible to survive without a space suit
for a short time.  (2001 is NOT the only example; see [oh, DAMN, I
lent it to my mother; since her filing system makes mine look like
the Library of Congress :-) I may never see it again!] -- I think he
has a chapter about it in THE VIEW FROM SERENDIP.)  Anyway, the
limitations vary; for someone in poor condition it's lack of oxygen,
for someone in better shape it's basically the bends -- nitrogen
bubbles (plus oxygen and carbon dioxide) forming in the bloodstream.
The other effects take longer.  However, if you're not shielded from
the sun you'll get one h*ll of a sunburn real fast.

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNET
6614  Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 20 Mar 1987 08:05:47-PST
From: leavitt%hpscad.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Eric Leavitt)
Subject: Sudden Decompression

I recently took a flight physiology course at Pease AFB.  This
course is sponsored by the FAA for pilots - and I'm trying to become
one.

They spent a lot of time discussing oxygen deprivation, (that was
the primary point of the course), and some time discussing total
decompression.  They have a lot of information from studies on dogs.
These experiments are ongoing and are considered important by NASA
which is currently doing lots of research on the construction of
space stations.  Although human experiments were conducted by the
Nazis, they have little information from those.

Many people seem to expect some very dramatic event to occur.  In
fact the mechanical pressures involved are not that great for a
human body.  You experience half of them in suddenly decompressing
from sea level to 18M (that's military for 18,000 ft.) which I
experienced during the course.  It is hardly noticable, except that
the room suddenly fogs up.

The most dramatic thing happens above 63M.  At that level the
atmospheric pressure drops below the vapor pressure of your blood -
in other words, your blood boils.  This is known as the Armstrong
limit after an early Air Force flight surgeon.  This is the highest
that humans can go, even briefly, without a pressure suit.  In
realistic situations, people can't go higher that 45M without a
pressure suit due to oxygen deprivation.

When your blood boils it forms a foam.  Your body puffs up to the
largest volume that your skin can contain - about twice normal size
for a human, and about 3 times normal size for a dog.

Your heart can't pump foam effectively, and you stop getting blood
flow to the brain.  At this point, your survival is very similar to
that of heart attack victims.  Up to about 3 minutes can be survived
with little long term damage.  From 3 to 5 minutes brain damage is
likely, and after 5 minutes death becomes likely.  No one will
survive longer than 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, you won't be conscious for much of this time.  The
course explains what your TUC (time of useful consciousness) will be
for various levels of oxygen deprivation.  The TUC for sudden total
decompression is 3 to 5 seconds.

Very little real damage will occur at the moment of decompression.
The only danger then is if you try to hold your breath - you can
destroy your lungs.  Your reflexes will do the right thing, however.
Most of the damage will occur during repressurization.  Two dangers
are of ear and sinus blocks.  These are extremely painful but can be
survived.  German WWII bomber crews routinely pierced their ear
drums before missions to avoid ear block.

If you were breathing air (as opposed to pure oxygen) then there is
the danger of the "bends" - nitrogen that doesn't redissolve in your
blood.  The bends can be treated by overpressure and breathing
oxygen.  NASA expects that all pressure suits will use a pure oxygen
environment.  However, larger enclosures have used air since the
Grissom - Chaffe - White accident.

Getting back to a question that was asked in SF-Lovers about 6
months ago: Was the airlock scene in 2001 realistic?  I think that
just barely - yes.  However, it is unlikely that he would have been
in shape to immediately get up and walk through the ship.

BTW.  This course is available to anyone at many places around the
country.  You just need $20 and have to pass a 3rd class FAA
medical.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 16:59:39 GMT
From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

>If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
>what is the result ?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not good,
>:-), but what is it that kills you ?

 Has any one else read a story that made reference to a 'Vacuum
Breathers Club'?  It was an informal club whose members were those
people who survived a transfer from airlock to airlock without a
suit.  The author speculated that a few seconds exposed in space
wouldn't kill you.

 As far as speculations about what kills people, I like the bends as
the most likely culprit.  However, if the rescuees are waiting in a
lock before they have to exit, I would bet that they have some
control over their atmosphere, and could start breathing pure
oxygen at low pressure.
 I think the next most likely cause of death would be anoxia (no air
to breath right?).

------------------------------

Date: TUESDAY 03/24/87 14:54:36 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>
Subject: Re; Stardrives

A physicist friend of mine came up with an idea related to the
quantam mechanical phenomenon of 'tunneling' where a particle can
penetrate a barrier that under classical physics would be totally
insurmountable.

His idea involves placing the spaceship at a position relative to a
star so that there is a potential energy DROP between the gravity
well it leaves and the one it enters.  The 'barrier' that is
penetrated in this way is the intervening space.  Before those of
you who don't know quantam mech say this sounds totally impossible,
believe me, there are things just as peculiar that we KNOW happen!!

George Madison
7GMADISO at POMONA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 10:21:31 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
Subject: Anyone Have A List of Cons??

I blush to admit it, but although a serious reader of science
fiction for (I hate to admit this, too..) going on 15 years now
(giving my age away!!), I have never attended a Con. Fact is, didn't
know anything about them until I started reading SFL last autumn.
All this discussion, however, has piqued my interest, and I would
therefore like to get some feedback from the net on the following:

1. Does anyone have a list of (USA) Cons with locations and major
   interest(s)? (relaxicon, literarycon, mediacon, etc.)

2. Barring that, are there any Cons coming up in the Washington DC,
   Baltimore, Philadelphia, Richmond, Norfolk area anytime soon??

3. Finally, what is/was YOUR favorite and least favorite Con??

E-MAIL me your answer to that last question, and I will consolidate
and report back to the net the votes (and reasons) for the 10
favorite and 10 worst Cons.

Many thanks!!

Sheri
ltsmith@mitre.arpa
(703) 836-1729  (h)
3842 Brighton Ct
Alexandria, VA  22305

PS.  Just what does a SFL t-shirt look like, anyhow?? Have been
considering ordering one, but never saw it described...

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 87 21:49:17 GMT
From: sphinx.UChicago!fla7@rutgers.edu (will flachsbart)
Subject: Re: teleportation booths

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
>methods that have been used in SF stories.

In the adventures of McGill Feighan (sp?), by Kevin O'Donnell Jr.,
only special people can telport, or fling. They do it by
visualizing, sensing, smelling, etc. the place they are at and the
place they are going to and then super-imposing the images over one
another. They then alter the kinetic energy of the intended
teleported object/person so that upon arrival they aren't ripped to
shreds, and *ping*, as McDonnell writes, they go. This takes lots of
practice with ballons, water ballons etc., and there is an
incidental 916.8 kilo limit upon the weight the flinger can send. (I
think that's the number) This also incidentally confers upon the
flinger a pseudo-telekinetic ability, i.e. by adding kinetic energy
to an object, you can accelerate, deccelerate, etc. the object.
There are some other quirks, but they are intrinsic to the plot, so
I won't spoil it here. Read the books, they are great!

will flachsbart
!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 87 11:40:18 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths

> As an aside, I wonder if anyone can think of any other teleport
> methods that have been used in SF stories.  All I can think of at
> the moment are:
>  1.Transfer-of-information
>  2.Niven's "transition particle" method w. conserv. laws applying
>  3.Transport through hyperspace
>  4.that weird "similarity" method Gosseyn used in vanVogt's
>    "Null-A" series.  Any others?

   5. re-write the equations of the universe so that you are
      somewhere else. (Jack Chalker's Well of souls series).

   6. The quantum uncertanty method. "The probability wave
      function of a particle decreases the further you get from it's
      centre, but it never drops to zero. There is a chance that the
      particle is actually in orbit round another planet. So change
      the probability." This method was used first by Arthur C
      Clarke in one of his short stories. (Can anyone remember the
      title?

**SPOILER*
      The drive went wrong and multiplied the probability,
      scattering the spacecraft evenly through the universe
*END SPOILER*

      ). Later a similar idea appears as the infinite improbability
      drive in "The Hitchhiker's Guide".

   7. There is also the fourth dimension travel method.
      usually confused with method 3. above.

   8. Then you could always get a lift from a more advanced
      civilisation and let them wory about how it works. :-)

Bob.
ERCC.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 13:41:15 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: teleportation
Cc: q@umn-cs.arpa

<nike!orion!kaufman> describes a "perpetual motion" machine using
water and teleporters running a turbine.  I have one small problem
with this system.  When the water falls onto the turbine, it heats
up.  It does not cool off as the poster suggests.  It's called
thermodynamics.  Gravitional potential energy gets converted to
kinetic energy -- read heat.  The act of teleporting the water "up"
to the receiver adds more potential energy, and eventually the water
turns to steam.  Even the cooling action of teleporting to a greater
height would not compensate for the heat gain, unless you remove the
turbine, and then you get no power out.

Brett Slocum
ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum
hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 87 01:58:29 GMT
From: 3comvax!michaelm@rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven and teleportation booths (really, duplication
Subject: booths)

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>kaufman@orion.UUCP (Bill Kaufman) writes:
>>(If a representation can be made, and a copy generated from that
>>representation, then what's to stop me from "beaming" a copy of me
>>to several receivers, generating me several times?  It can get
>>ugly,...)
>_The_Commplete_Venus_Equilateral_ has a detailed discussion on this
>(in a pretty amusing story form -- recommended, if out-of-date).
>Think of what would happen if you recreated 10 $100 bills.  Every
>one of them would be real, even though they contain the same serial
>number.  Bet THAT would crash the economy!

For a good exploration of this idea, and the question of whether it
would or wouldn't wreck the economy, see the story "Business As
Usual During Alterations" (I don't have the author's name handy --
sorry), anthologized in _Prologue_To_Analogue_, an excellent
collection edited by John W. Campbell Jr. of some of the best
stories of the last decade of _Astounding_, before it became
_Analog_.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
(408) 970-1835 (work)
(408) 335-2069 (home)
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 03:15:46 GMT
From: ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Sean Ellis)
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy (really NOT IMPOSSIBLE !)

In a closed Universe , that is, one that starts with a Big Bang and
ends with a Gnab Gib (;-) , the total energy is zero. The gravity of
the system cancels the mass-energy of all the stars, planets,
people, etc that live in it.  There is no escape. The Beginning and
End of time prevent time travellers from passing before the start of
the Universe ( if that has any meaning at all.

There is no reason why matter should not travel in time at other
than the eternal 1 second of personal time per 1 second of external
time. It just means that the energy discrepancy during the period
when the object would have existed is cancelled by some other form
of energy.

For example, quantum dynamics allows a particle, an antiparticle and
a photon to appear from nowhere, exist for a short time, and
disappear again. Where does the energy discrepancy come from ? The
answer is there is none. The energy of the local system is balanced
by a loss in energy later on... a particle moving forward in time is
exactly analagous to its antiparticle moving backwards in time, and
so the whole system can be seen as a closed loop of mass energy
chasing its own tail in time.

There is even a proven REAL SCIENCE theory plotting timelike paths
around a rapidly rotating ultradense object that allows you to
emerge at any point in the past or future.

So please.... no more of the "time travel is impossible" letters. It
isn't.  I know. I'm really from 3087, and boy, is this place
primitive....;-)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 01:45:00 GMT
From: seiffert@silver.bacs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Star-drives



   Why not a suggestion made by (I forget {shame}) who wrote
DOWNTIMEING THE NIGHTSIDE. A very ineresting book where the laws of
the universe acted towards an equilibrium to off set time travel.
The travelers would change slightly to create the least amount of
problems for the universe. Some rough edges granted, but nothing
that couldn't be worked out.

Kurt
seiffert@silver.bacs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 Mar 87 1111-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #113
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Mar 87 1111-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #113
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brust & Chalker (2 msgs) & LeGuin &
                    L'Engle & Martin (2 msgs) & McCaffrey &
                    Rand & Ryan & Baen Book Reprints &
                    Request for Magical Shop Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 14:36:50-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SPAR-20.ARPA>
Subject: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, Brokedown Palace

kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith):
>According to remarks SKZB made at Ad Astra last year during a
>question/answer session after a panel, the "Faerie" of Brokedown
>Palace IS the Dragaeran Empire.  I don't have the book in front of
>me at the moment, and the character's name escapes me, but SKZB
>said that the baby refered to at the very end of Brokedown Palace
>is in fact Cawti.

Hmmm, well, I guess the author always gets the last word, but when I
was reading Brokedown Palace I was under the impression that the
events in B.P.  occurred long before the events in Jhereg/etc.  It
was clear that the universes were the same, and that Faerie was
Dragaera, but unless there's lots more to the Easterner's land
holdings than was described in B.P. it sure seems far too small and
backwards.  It did seem to me that there weren't any other nearby
human establishments known to the residents, which is what led me to
believe it was far in the past when there were fewer people.

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 15:27:26-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: re: Information (details and Magic)

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes in response to Mark Biggar:
> One of the nice contributions of Jack Chalker's works is the clear
> realization that 'magic' requires information.  Poof! you're a
> frog...now where did I learn enough about the genetic structure of
> a frog to turn you into a functional amphibian?

This is fallacious.  By that reasoning, a baseball pitcher needs to
know all about dynamics and drag, a secretary using a word processor
needs to know programming and electrical engineering, a writer needs
to know about linguistic theory, a painter needs to know chemistry
and optics, anyone merely thinking needs to know about neurons and
synapses,...

I can imagine a magician poof!ing you into a frog (for your
insolence :-) with no knowledge of genetics just as easily as a
gourmet might eat and digest you afterwards with no knowledge of
digestion.

Think how little (nothing) we'd accomplish in life if we had to
consciously know all the minutiae of every action we did!

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 01:02:27 GMT
From: byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic)

From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes in response to Mark Biggar:
>> One of the nice contributions of Jack Chalker's works is the
>> clear realization that 'magic' requires information.  Poof!
>> you're a frog...now where did I learn enough about the genetic
>> structure of a frog to turn you into a functional amphibian?
>This is fallacious.  [Gives examples of items being used with no
>knowledge by the user]

Jack Chalker has quite a few things in common in all of his stuff
that I've read. This of course is not law!  Qualify each of these
with mostly/almost always/always (your choice).

   1. He writes series.
   2. They involve computers.
   3. The computers are sentient.
   3. These computers have the ability to change the environment.
      i.e. create something out of "nothing".
   4. Humans can interface to the computers without an obvious
      physical connection.
   5. The computers respond to the humans' request.
   6. Humans have no working knowledge of computer or interface.

Result - MAGIC! I love the fact that his magic always has hard core
S(ci).  F(i). (I'm afraid to use one or the other!) backing it up. A
few examples that come to mind:

1. Flux series. A classic with all of the above element. Wizards
   were the humans who could best interface to the computers but
   have virtually no knowledge of the system. They also have no
   knowledge of the structure of what they want. I want a frog!
   SHAZAM! frog. How? Who cares!!

2. Lords of the Diamond. Substitute "Sentient, sleeping planet sized
   creatures with spores that combine with human host" for computer
   above and there you have it! I know I'm stretching that a bit but
   you get the idea.

3. Well World. The Obie - Mavra relationship comes to mind here
   along with the Big Well computer and the entire universe. Point 6
   falls by the wayside with Nathan Brazil though.

4. His current series (the name eludes me at the moment) - Even more
   mystic because the Master System has placed most of its
   constituents into a pre-computer mode. What does Silent Woman and
   Cloud Dancer think when they pop into a chamber on a ship and pop
   out of another on the surface of a planet? That's right - magic.

So what Chalker does is put incredible science into the hands of the
ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant). The result is magic.

BTW does anyone have a canonical listing of Chalker's works that
could be sent to me? I find all of his work fascinating.

Byron Jeff
E-mail address:
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!byron

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 87 02:26:38 -0500
From: kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Ursula k. LeGuin

>>I wish to strongly echo the above remarks.  _The_Dispossessed_
>>seems to be intended, as is _Atlas_Shrugged_, primarily as a
>>political essay (some would say propaganda).
>I wish to strongly object to the above remarks.  Comparing Ayn Rand
>to Ursula Kroeber LeGuin is like comparing Ronald Reagan to Paul
>Newman...
>
>Don't insult LeGuin; she's a good writer.  ATLAS SHRUGGED is the...

I feel that I have to come to someone's defense here (I'm not sure
whether it would be Rand's or the person who wrote that first
comment).  First, talking about the quality of an author's work is
necessarily a subjective statement.  I happened to find some of
Rand's work (particularly _The _Fountainhead_) rather interesting.
I disagree with the philosophy, but as utopian novels go, I found it
fairly convicing (anybody read the original, Thomas More's _Utopia_?
I recommend that at least for perspective, but also for quality.)  I
also know many people who have read, and do accept the philosophy of
objectivism, both as a personal philosophy and as a mode of
government.  And these are not just old republicans, but vary in age
from 18 to 60 or so.  My experience casts doubt on Brandon's
statment

>her political ideals were, shall we say, not enthusiastically
>accepted.

with regard to Jeff Myers interpretation

>I very much doubt that she was plugging some political agenda with
>_The_Dispossessed_.  I think that she was interested in showing
>that it is possible to conceive of a rationally constructed and
>believable egalitarian society -- she uses her anthropology
>background to expand the realm of fantasy/sf, not to give us more
>BEM novels, in the finest tradition of RAH and
>_Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_.

I think that in spite of the differences in the skill of the authors
in question, I think that some comparison can be made between
_SiaSL_, _TD_, and _AS_.  They are all basically utopian novels
(with veiwpoints that differ in both degree of realism and in
political leaning) that have as a goal not a "political agenda" but
the expression and provocation of thought.  Rand, in fact would
probably be the first to admit the need for examination of these
systems and individual adaptation of the politcal system that each
of us belongs to-sorry, that was almost a non-sequiter- but imagine
a system where each community could develop it's own economic
structure and so on An individually determined Utopia.  But it
wouldn't work: "utopia" is no place, and history indicates that it
never will be either.

  There is also an interesting body of nieteenth-century utopian
literature (including Bellamy's _Looking Backward_); I have some
titles for any one who is interested.

By the way, I liked all three authors, but I do admit to preferring
LeGuin.

Karl DeBisschop
kdebiss@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 09:06:52 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle
From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

> Does anyone remember (or has anyone already mentioned) a rather
> whimsical young-adult story called "A Wrinkle In Time" by
> Madeleine L'Engle?

As someone else mentioned, this was probably the first SF book I
ever read.

"A Wrinkle In Time" is the first book in her Time Trilogy.  The
second book is "A Wind in the Door", and the final book is "A
Swiftly Tilting Planet."  Each book is separable and can be read on
its own.  The characters grow older and develop nicely throughout
the series.  "A Wrinkle in Time" of course is a classic, and I
highly recommend the final book "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" -- it
really gets you thinking and wanting to figure out what's going
on....  However, I found "A Wind in the Door" a bit hard to follow
at times, but still enjoyable to read.

L'Engle has written quite a few other "Young Adult" books, and most
of them happen to feature the O'Keefe family which was first
introduced in the Time Trilogy.  However, other than the name of
this family, there appears to be no connection of these other
stand-alone books with the Time Trilogy.

Scott Gellerman
Gellerman.Osbunorth@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 14:04:04 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: _Tuf Voyaging_ by G.R.R. Martin

ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes:
>Armageddon Rag" is a pretty good book also.  So far the only book
>by Martin (or perhaps I should say with Martin content) that I did
>not like is his book "Aces", which I think was recently reviewed by
>Mark Leeper.

Actually the book reviewed here was WILD CARDS and I reviewed it
(not Mark).  ACES HIGH is the second book in the series and I'm in
the middle of it now.  (It's subtitled "Wild Cards II.")  Mark is
now reading WILD CARDS.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 20:38:29-PST
From: SUZY@ECLC.USC.EDU
Subject: George R.R.

ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) writes:
>Martin has also written "Fever Dream", which is considered by some
>his best book.  For those who grew up in the Bay Area "The
>Armageddon Rag" is a pretty good book also.

George R.R. has also edited and contributed to an anthology called
"Wild Cards", with possibly more volumes of it's ilk arriving
shortly.

I'll never forget my first story by Martin -- "Sandkings".  It was
the last story in someone else's (name escapes me) anthology.  Gave
me the creepy crawlies for weeks!

Does anyone know if there's another novel in the works?

suzy
suzy@usc-eclc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 13:24:21 GMT
From: diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Re: Pern Money

dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>The main problem I have with money on Pern is that I can't figure
>out who issues it.  Traditionally, money is issued by bankers or
>some kind of government.  There don't seem to be any bankers on
>Pern (or lawyers either, (maybe Pernese are communists... no
>lawyers -- that's unAmerican :-) ) and the various Holders don't
>seem to be in the business of minting money.

The various crafthalls issues them. Menolly's 2-mark piece is
stamped with the harpercrafthall's mark (hence the name?).  Perhaps
the holders do so too, although that is not mentioned anywhere. As
far as I understand (I don't know if the books say so, or if I just
assumed it) the halls guarantees to redeem the marks with products.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
Institute of Computer Science
mcvax@diku@rancke

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 87 22:48:02 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Ayn Rand
Cc: ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU

> From: Messenger.SBDERX@Xerox.COM
> _Atlas_Shrugged_ ??  I thought this was a figment of Robert
> O'Shea's and/or Robert Anton Wilson's imagination, along with
> _Telemechus_Sneezed_.  Does Atlanta Hope map to Ursula K. LeGuin?

It is quite real.  _Atlas_Shugged_ is my favorite book of all time.
After 30 years it is still in print.  Don't start it until you have
some time on your hands - you won't want to put it down until you
are done, and it is long.

Ayn Rand (1905-1982) also wrote _We the Living_, _Anthem_, _The
Fountainhead_, and the nonfiction books _Philosophy: Who Needs it_,
_For the New Intellectual_, _The Virtue of Selfishness_,
_Captitalism: The Unknown Ideal_, and _The Romantic Manifesto_.
Even if you don't agree with her philosophy of Objectivism, her
books will really shake up your thought patterns, which is after all
what SF is FOR, anyway.  If you can only read one book this year,
this should be the one.

I do not know why Shea and Wilson have such an antipathy, since they
claim to be libertarians, which share most ideas with objectivists.
Their parody ("Telemachus Sneezed" and "Militarism: The Unknown
Ideal for the new Heraclitean") make it clear they didn't understand
a word they read.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 20:19:06 GMT
From: marlinw@tekchips.TEK.COM (Marlin Wilson)
Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P1 - MAJOR SPOILERS!

tmca@ut-ngp.UUCP (Tim Abbott) writes:
>MAJOR SPOILERS HEREIN - DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU!
>However, to the point: in the blurb on the back of my copy it says
>something to the effect of ' the final readout is the most
>chilling...' but in the book itself the "final readout" is given
>when Linda returns to Waterloo and types 'P1' at the terminal which
>then replies:
>
>       OOLCAY ITAY
>
>Now, am I the victim of a hoax intended to make me ask stupid
>questions like this or is this actually supposed to mean something?
>(Ignoring the AY's you can get COOL IT out of this, so one would
>assume that a somewhat less powerful P1 still exists in the
>machine...)

Of course it's pig latin for 'cool it'.  I took it to mean that,
considering all the trouble P1 got into when folks found out about
his existence, he had a back door open when they tried their last
ploy to destroy him -- and so still exists in some form.  I didn't
associate the back cover with the story -- 'most chilling'?
Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the book.  I just
found it intriguing and pleasing that P1 had the last laugh and
still lives on.  And I don't assume a less powerful P1 -- perhaps
more so since at that point in the book he's kept his renewed
presence secret for a few months.

Marlin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 87 20:44:11 PST
From: Robert Pratt <pratt@portia.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Baen books reprints

I saw a Baen reprint today (of a Thieves World collection about
Tempus) and it was actually labeled as containing previously
published material.  I hope this is the beginning of a trend.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 01:44:20 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Magical Shop stories

I am looking for stories that take place in, or are about, one of
those magical shops full of interesting things, that appears out of
nowhere. You know the type. Usually there is a wizened old
shopkeeper who sells or gives the unsuspecting visitor some magical
item that changes (or ruins) his or her life. If you know of any,
please email me the title and author. (I know Harlan Ellison wrote a
couple of them.) If anyone is interested, I can post a list later.
Thanks.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu
williams@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Mar 87 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #114
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Mar 87 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #114
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Zelazny (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 06:53:09 PST (Friday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

*** Spoiler Material After this ***

Dennis Griesser <fritz!dennisg@rutgers.edu>
>>However, in _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ the characters ARE
>>gods.
>
>Wrong again.  There are numerous places where the technological
>underpinnings of godhood are clearly shown.

It was my impression in 'Creatures' that the underpinnings of
godhood were only partially mechanical. Certainly Osiris and Anubis
used such methods, but the Prince and Horus certainly did not.

The Prince, a teleporter and Temporal Fugue master, based his powers
solely on these attributes and his native intelligence and wisdom. I
don't recall him ever using a machine at all in the books. Horus was
a telekinetic and telepath, as well as a fugue artist. He didn't
bother with machines either.

The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who
seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or paranormal
abilities.  It appeared that he was simply incapable of being
permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related to
any instrumentality in particular, but instead to his adherence to
high ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there was always someone
willing to put him back together.

The point though, through the book, is no matter how they do
it,these beings are pretty much gods in the ancient sense. They are
powerful meddlers in the fate of nations and people, filled with
foibles and flaws. The ability and will to be a god is something
separate from any particular instrumentality or power.

>>Also, this book is more relevent to everyday life (the situations
>>and events relate more to occurrences in everyday life).
>
>OK, when was the last time that, in punishment for losing a war
>against the gods, your soul was removed from your body and
>imprisoned in the radiation belt around the planet?  Or did you
>mean your strange mental abilities that allow you to control
>creatures of energy.  Or perhaps you fought with the gods against
>the legions of the undead?  How about that time that you went to
>buy a new body and they tried to stick you with a defective one?
>
>Hell, I do this stuff every day!

The point about relevancy was that the characters in Lord of Light
are motivated by emotions and goals everyday people can relate to:
greed, envy, spite, lust for battle, compassion, love, hate,
friendship. The beings of Creatures of Light and Darkness seemed
much more remote to me, motivated by obscure compulsions and mighty
plans for the governance of the races and star systems. I have to
agree with Cleave on this one.

Kurt Piersol

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 87 12:58:51 GMT
From: diku!thorinn@rutgers.edu (Lars Henrik Mathiesen)
Subject: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid?

  I just read Blood of Amber, and there's one glaring (to me)
implausibility.  Consider this:
  On page 32 (Arbor House hardcover) we're reminded that Merlin has
the ability to shapeshift because he's a Lord of Chaos.
  On page 69 to 71 Merlin experiences a flashback to when he duelled
with his half brother Jurt (son of Dara), which cost Jurt an ear.
  On page 138 to 141 he remembers a picnic where Jurt attacked him -
this time it cost Jurt an eye.
  And then on page 149 to 152 he's attacked by a one-eyed, lop-eared
wolf who's come in through a trump gate. He concludes (page 153)
that it must be a shape- changed human, and that it must be an
initiate of the Trumps (or must have been sent by one).
  And then he uses a couple of paragraphs wondering who this might
be without once considering Jurt. My immediate reaction when the
"one-eyed, one-eared wolf" was mentioned was "Oho! Jurt's out for
revenge", which is why it just isn't believable to me that Merlin
shouldn't think of it.
  Even though it may be necessary to the story that Merlin don't
know who his attacker was, the device of "He just plain didn't think
of it" bothers me - I'd much rather have something like "Nah,
couldn't be Jurt even though he fits physically, because he never
would have the guts to negotiate the Logrus, so he can't have the
necessary power."
  Of course the purpose may be to make us all believe that it was
Jurt, but it still isn't plausible that Merlin doesn't think of it.

Lars Mathiesen
U of Copenhagen, Denmark
mcvax!diku!thorinn

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 21:59:28 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

>The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General...  It
>appeared that he was simply incapable of being permanently
>destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related to any
>instrumentality in particular, but instead to his adherence to high
>ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there was always someone
>willing to put him back together.

The Steel General is something of an anomaly in Creatures of L&D,
not because he isn't supernatural but because he isn't fantasy.
There always *is* someone willing to put him back together.  By a
similar token, I'm not sure that overgrown pooch was a fantasy
figure.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 87 20:01:31 GMT
From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid?

thorinn@diku.UUCP (Lars Henrik Mathiesen) writes:
>   I just read Blood of Amber, and there's one glaring (to me)
>implausibility.  ...And then he uses a couple of paragraphs
>wondering who this might be without once considering Jurt. My
>immediate reaction when the "one-eyed, one-eared

Well, he also took an immense amount of time to even begin wondering
who Luke was.  And Corwin was similarly duped by Dara and Ganelon.
So it must be hereditary...

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 19:01:32 GMT
From: epimass!jbuck@rutgers.edu (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid?

Lars Henrik Mathiesen writes:
>>   I just read Blood of Amber, and there's one glaring (to me)
>>implausibility.  ...And then he uses a couple of paragraphs
>>wondering who this might be without once considering Jurt. My
>>immediate reaction when the "one-eyed, one-eared

David Eppstein writes:
>Well, he also took an immense amount of time to even begin
>wondering who Luke was.  And Corwin was similarly duped by Dara and
>Ganelon.  So it must be hereditary...

Maybe there's another reason.  Merlin is too powerful to write an
effective story around.  He has all the powers of an Amberite and of
a member of the Courts of Chaos.  Unlike Corwin, who has quite a few
limitations in his use of Shadow, Merlin can go anywhere instantly,
or reach out and grab anything out of shadow, or shape-shift.  He
needs some kind of handicap for any possibility of drama to exist.
With half a brain he could defeat any opponent without working up a
sweat.  Answer: stupidity.

I should have stopped reading after the first five.

Joe Buck
{hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck
seismo!epiwrl!epimass!jbuck
{pesnta,tymix,apple}!epimass!jbuck
Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 20:17:37 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

Possible spoilers of _Lord of Light_ or _Creatures of Light and
Darkness_.

> Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
> It was my impression in 'Creatures' that the underpinnings of
> godhood were only partially mechanical. Certainly Osiris and
> Anubis used such methods, but the Prince and Horus certainly did
> not.

But even the non-mechanical methods they used were "explained
rationally", not supernaturally.  The power of the Temporal Fugue,
for example, was portrayed as something that most anyone could learn
with a few centuries of concentrated training.  The extra abilities
of Horus, Set, the Prince Who Was A Thousand, and Typhon all derive
(it is at least hinted) from either the fact that the Prince was
Set's father, and Set was also the Prince's father, or from the Red
Witch.  The time-paradox involved may have resulted in some of the
peculiar abilities in "that damned family" as Osiris remarked.
Mostly in the offspring of Set and the Red Witch.  But other than
the peculiar nature of the timeloop involving Set and the Prince,
and the obscure nature of the origins of the Red Witch, the family
is supposedly of purely human extraction.

> The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who
> seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or paranormal
> abilities.  It appeared that he was simply incapable of being
> permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related
> to any instrumentality in particular, but instead to his adherence
> to high ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there was always
> someone willing to put him back together.

But again, he was no god.  In fact, his roots were traced back and
the timeline of CoLaD is shown to be the future of our own timeline.
The Steel General was involved in revolutions that occured in our
own time.  (Usually on the losing side.)

> The point though, through the book, is no matter how they do
> it,these beings are pretty much gods in the ancient sense. They
> are powerful meddlers in the fate of nations and people, filled
> with foibles and flaws. The ability and will to be a god is
> something separate from any particular instrumentality or power.

But this is is something that LoL has in COMMON with CoLaD, not
something that separates the two books.  Consider...  oh, what was
his name... Mumble the Black?  The Parson of the Star of India?
"Niritri", was it?  That guy, anyhow.  He had no mutant powers, no
Aspect, no Attribute.  Just good old fashioned bullets, missiles,
and zombies.  That is, there was no PARTICULAR road to godhead in
LoL, you just joined the club if you had enough power.  Similarly
for CoLaD.  Many of the Angels who served with the Prince had powers
based only on technology.  Anubis, Osiris, Madrak, Whoziz the Green,
for examples.

> The point about relevancy was that the characters in Lord of Light
> are motivated by emotions and goals everyday people can relate to:
> greed, envy, spite, lust for battle, compassion, love, hate,
> friendship. The beings of Creatures of Light and Darkness seemed
> much more remote to me, motivated by obscure compulsions and
> mighty plans for the governance of the races and star systems. I
> have to agree with Cleave on this one.

Obscure compulsions, like the fact that Osiris was envious of Set's
relationship with the Red Witch, and resented the fact that she was
always ready to go back to Set if/when she could.  Mighty plans
motivated by greed for power and Anubis's spite of all the other
Angels.  And if Set doesn't have "lust for battle", then I don't
know who does.

And there is plenty of the rest too, "compassion, love, hate,
friendship", (evil men, good men, giant men, miracles... uh, no,
that's the Princess Bride, sorry... ahem) in CoLaD, if you only
look.  I dare you to read the scene where the Prince throws a stone
into the ocean, and his wife (having lost her body ages ago in the
last titanic battle against the Thing that Cries in the Night and
finally given up in despair) doesn't throw it back, without crying.
I double-dare you, nyeah!

In short, I definitely have to DISagree with Cleave on this one.

In fact, the two books LoL and CoLaD are very closely related in a
peculiar sort of way.  It is hard to find a quality that one has in
a significant way and the other totally lacks.  The essential
difference is one of scale, LoL being closer to our own time and
limited in scope to a single planet, while CoLaD is more remote, and
has a much larger physical setting.

Or to put it another way, LoL is much closer to our own level of
technology than CoLaD.  The civilization in LoL is still
more-or-less a type-I civilization, as we are.  But the implication
is strong that the civilization in CoLaD, what with the Twelve
Stations supporting that gargantuan energy field used to power the
Hammer that Smashes Suns among other things, is at least type-II,
though probably not type-III.

(Type I civilizations use power levels that can be generated on a
single planet, type II civilizations use power levels comparable to
the total radiated energy output of a star, and type III
civilizations use power levels comparable to the total radiated
energy output of a galaxy.  Niven's puppeteers, to give a quick
contrast off the top of my head, seem to have recently acquired
type-II status.  The Tnuctpin/Slaver civilization at the time of the
war may have been getting close to type-III (but not there yet).)

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 03:04:23 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
>The Prince, a teleporter and Temporal Fugue master, based his
>powers solely on these attributes and his native intelligence and
>wisdom. I don't recall him ever using a machine at all in the
>books. Horus was a telekinetic and telepath, as well as a fugue
>artist. He didn't bother with machines either.

I seem to recall that the Prince who was a Thousand used lasers and
possibly x-ray devices in an attempt to destroy the Nameless.

>The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who
>seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or paranormal
>abilities.  It appeared that he was simply incapable of being
>permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was not related
>to any instrumentality in standards. Thus, there was always someone
>willing to put him back together.

The Steel General is the incarnation of revolutionary spirit.
Therefore even if he were completely annihilated (have the Nameless
beat him up, the remains flattened by the Hammer that Smashes Suns,
and have the Prince's brother (I forget his name - the horse) stomp
on him) some revolutionary could still bring him back.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 01:13:03 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

 Damnation Alley was by Roger Zelazny.  It exists as a novella (or
novellette or whatever.  I never did learn the distinction) and a
novel.  The shorter form is a lot tighter (not surprising).

The movie was abysmal (maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if I
hadn't read the stories first).  In the story, the lead character is
Hell Tanner, the last surviving member of a motorcycle gang.  Not a
nice person.  In the movie, the lead character is also named Tanner,
but he is a member of the SAC, or some such.  Talk about polar
opposites.  And the movie ended in such a sicky sweet fashion.
Bogus.  Did Zelazny manage to get his name taken off of the credits?

By the way, the landcars in the story could have taken the vehicle
in the movie--no sweat. Although the movie vehicle was kind of neat.
Each wheel consisted of three smaller wheels, arranged in a
equilateral triangular configuration.  It can be run on just one or
two of the smaller wheels, like a regular car.  The entire mechanism
can rotate for improved off-road performance, or to make a kind of
paddle-wheel.  I remember seeing an article about a vehicle of this
type in an old popular mechanics.  Anyway, does anyone know if the
movie vehicle was just a reworked concept car, or if anyone is
actually making these?  Oh.  I liked the way the vehicle in the
movie just happened to run across terrain that happened to exercise
all of its capabilities.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Mar 87 0859-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #115
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Mar 87 0859-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #115
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:

                      Films - Aliens (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 87 17:35:29 GMT
From: drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of the
seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best
science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to
realism (no FTL travel here!). And the characters - they were real
people! I'd never seen any of them (except John Hurt and Harry Dean
Stanton) in any other film, so I had no preconceptions about them.
It was fantastic, and it holds up viewing after viewing.

One of the problems with "Aliens", already mentioned, is that we
knew what was going to happen (closely enough) throughout the film,
so the only really enjoyable part was watching the action and the
special effects. The characters were a lot more heavily drawn, and
lost a lot of their essential realism.

ucbvax!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 17:46:31 GMT
From: madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of
>the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best
>science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to
>realism (no FTL travel here!).

Oh?  Ten months of realtime travel between stars seems like FTL to
me.  (I believe the commander, whatever his name is, said that they
had been awakened early and they were still "ten months" out.)  They
were certainly near an alien star.  Now, how many light-months are
we from our NEAREST star?  (4.3*12 = 51.6 to Alpha Centauri, +/- a
couple if I got the light year distance a little wrong).  They *had*
to be using FTL, or some technology that gives the same effect as
FTL without actually exceeding lightspeed (eg Hyperspace [which is
how it is described in the book], Space-folding/Warping, etc).

Jim Frost
UUCP:  ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Mar 1987 14:12 CST
From: PHOENIX <XDSJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: RE: ALIEN vs. ALIENS...

I think everyone is missing the boat, by discussing how the 2 movies
differ, and trying to classify the differences. What I thought was
more interesting was what they had in common. Both movies assert
that big business doesn't give a damn about people (eg. Ashe and his
orders from mother, and the "yuppie" (who's name I forgot) who talks
Ripley into going back).

Another area of interest to me that the movies brought out was "What
is evil anyway?" The aliens are doing what they do to survive and
propogate.  They are not killing because of hate or any such
feelings (they dont know us well enough to hate us I assume). The
humans fight back to stay alive ( a noble motive in my book ). The
Mamma alien protects her young, just as Ripley protects Newt.

I personally liked the second movie better...I don't like horror or
suspense much, and I didn't feel like everybody in the second movie
was stupid (I mean really...even with an android running around
sabotaging everything, you'd still have thought some of the people
would have made better decisions...). I liked Ripley confronting her
fears and nightmares.  I believe in dealing with your problems
rather than running away from them.

Doris Johnston

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Mar 1987 16:48 CST
From: Darrell Johns <XDWJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Alien vs. Aliens

rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) writes:
>Ripley nearly loses her life at one point because she can't follow
>the complicated instructions that are needed to undo the ship's
>destruct mechanism.

    The reason Ripley couldn't undo the self destruct mechanism is
because the countdown was past the "point of no return".  She did
follow all the instructions, but she was just too late.

    As to which movie was better, Aliens was much better than the
first movie.  The first movie had characters that were not
believable and just plain stupid on top of that.  The second movie
had characters that showed a little intelligence.

    I would classify the first movie as a horror movie, no questions
asked.  The second movie was more of a science fiction movie with
more plot and less gore, which is as it should be.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 20:39:41 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!boreas@rutgers.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of
>the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best
>science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to
>realism (no FTL travel here!).

Umm, in the ending, didn't Ripley tell the diary-recorder (or
whatever you want to call it) that she'd be back in the core systems
in six months?  Or maybe it was six weeks; it's been a while.
Still, far too little time to not be FTL (unless you get into the
1/sqrt(1-v**2/c**2) equations).

In _Aliens_, they DEFINITELY had FTL -- after the transport
splattered all over the rocks, someone told someone else that the
soonest help would come was 17 (or was it 14?) days. . . .

Michael A. Justice
BITNet:cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:  harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
ARPA:  boreas@bucsb.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 87 17:47:32 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>One of the problems with "Aliens", already mentioned, is that we
>knew what was going to happen (closely enough) throughout the film,
>so the only really enjoyable part was watching the action and the
>special effects. The characters were a lot more heavily drawn, and
>lost a lot of their essential realism.

Okay, so I'm a character nut.  The only really enjoyable part...
What about watching the characters change and grow through the
events that take place?  Too hokey, right?  I particularly enjoyed
watching Cpl. Hicks find his footing, and I thought the nasty guy
(Burk?) was really good.  The characters were more than formula,
several of them with little looks and gestures that did more to set
them apart than anything else.

As everyone knows, I really loved this movie.  But what I loved so
much was the fact that I could believe in the characters, and I
WANTED them to survive.  I really prefer stories in which
adventure/danger/disaster serves to define and strengthen the people
involved.  No soap opera - but a lot oomph.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 87 19:14:01 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

madd@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (Jim Frost) writes:
>holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>>The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of
>>the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best
>>science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to
>>realism (no FTL travel here!).
>
>Oh?  Ten months of realtime travel between stars seems like FTL to
>me.  (I believe the commander, whatever his name is, said that they
>had been awakened early and they were still "ten months" out.)
>They were certainly near an alien star.  Now, how many light-months
>are we from our NEAREST star?  (4.3*12 = 51.6 to Alpha Centauri,
>+/- a couple if I got the light year distance a little wrong).
>They *had* to be using FTL, or some technology that gives the same
>effect as FTL without actually exceeding lightspeed (eg Hyperspace
>[which is how it is described in the book], Space-folding/Warping,
>etc).

I've not read the books, but I just watched "Alien" the other night
and saw no mention of any sort of FTL drive, except for the ten
months it'd take to travel to Earth from where they were.

What if they were moving at a significant fraction of the speed of
light?  Ten months for them might mean some tens of years "real
time", and possibly some number of light years out.

"Aliens" contradicts this somewhat, by saying that she was asleep
for fifty years. But then, the shuttle she was stashed on was never
advertised as being very fast... If she'd been asleep for fifty
years, whether on FTL drive or just Epsilon-C drive, she'd be well
out of range of everything.

BTW - can you really trust a novelization written by Alan Dean
Foster?

{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 87 09:06:34 GMT
From: spr@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (The Cute Cuddle Creature) writes:
>holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>>The last time a horror movie really had me clawing at the arm of
>>the seat was when I saw "Alien". It's up there with the best
>>science-fiction films for its special effects and attention to
>>realism (no FTL travel here!).
>Umm, in the ending, didn't Ripley tell the diary-recorder (or
>whatever you want to call it) that she'd be back in the core
>systems in six months?  Or maybe it was six weeks; it's been a
>while.  Still, far too little time to not be FTL (unless you get
>into the 1/sqrt(1-v**2/c**2) equations).

With any luck, she'd be picked up by the network in six weeks

>In _Aliens_, they DEFINITELY had FTL -- after the transport
>splattered all over the rocks, someone told someone else that the
>soonest help would come was 17 (or was it 14?) days. . . .

Not only that, but also sub-space communication since they lost
contact with the colony pretty quick.  By the way, they REALLY
changed that planet, since the moons and rings disappeared, or was
LV-426 a moon of that nifty planet with the rings?

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  spr@miro.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ...ucbvax!miro!spr
USnail:  2299 Piedmont Ave #315, Berkeley, Ca 94720

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 87 07:58:17 GMT
From: 6085419@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (James Kawashima)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

>    As to which movie was better, Aliens was much better than the
>first movie.  The first movie had characters that were not
>believable and just plain stupid on top of that.  The second movie
>had characters that showed a little intelligence.

   Indeed, and how would you support this?  I found the characters
in the first film to be more believable because they were more
human, reacting as one might expect one to act under the pressure of
facing a threat of unknown powers and proportions.  The characters
in the second film did not have as much time to interact because
they were faced with the non-stop threat of action-seeking James
Cameron's creations ( a director who I respect for his ability to
thrill the public, AND his willingness to admit his commercial
motivations).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 87 20:19:27 GMT
From: sq!hobie@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

XDWJ@ECNCDC.BITNET writes:
>    As to which movie was better, Aliens was much better than the
>first movie.  The first movie had characters that were not
>believable and just plain stupid on top of that.  The second movie
>had characters that showed a little intelligence.

becky (becky@sq.UUCP) writes:
>The crew members of the first movie
>were constantly making errors like that - it was silly.

   What is so unbelievable, stupid and silly about people making
misktakes?  One of the most attractive things about Alien, to me at
least, is the depiction of future space travel as so routine and
ordinary that you don't have to be a genius or superhuman to do it.
The crew of the Nostromo are tomorrow's equivalent of today's
merchant marine, not test pilots, scientists and air force colonels
that dominate today's astronaut corps.  Is it so unreasonable that
these people would disregard regulations, do stupid things and make
mistakes?  Besides, the person responsible for letting the
contaminated crewmember in, Becky, was Ash the android.  He did it
against the orders of Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) FOR THE EXPRESS
PURPOSE of contaminating the crew.  It was a calculated act (to
the tenth decimal place).
   There were other actions that the crew took which are, in
hindsight, mistakes.  Such as Dallas hunting the alien in the
ventilation tunnels.  Remember, he was not a xenobiologist, big game
hunter or commando.  Just brave and maybe a little desperate.  Does
this make his character less believable?  I don't think so.
   Perhaps what is bothering those who found the Nostromo
crewmembers unbelievable is that they can't believe that star ship
officers can be cursing, cigarette-smoking, slovenly, stupid and
badly-dressed.  There are some who prefer their science-fiction more
on the squeaky-clean side :-)

Hobie Orris
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4 | decvax | ? }!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 87 09:28:03 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ALIEN/ALIENS

From:   drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway)
> One of the problems with "Aliens", already mentioned, is that we
> knew what was going to happen (closely enough) throughout the
> film, so the only really enjoyable part was watching the action
> and the special effects. The characters were a lot more heavily
> drawn, and lost a lot of their essential realism.

Hmmm... I must be a mutant. Am I the only person who cares less
about what happens than *how* it happens? I'm more interested in the
trip than in the destination.

> I've not read the books, but I just watched "Alien" the other
> night and saw no mention of any sort of FTL drive, except for the
> ten months it'd take to travel to Earth from where they were.
>
> What if they were moving at a significant fraction of the speed of
> light?  Ten months for them might mean some tens of years "real
> time", and possibly some number of light years out.

Actually, if you listen closely, you'll hear Lambert (Veronica
Cartwright) state that the system they arrive in is "just short of
Zeta II Reticuli", which is roughly 30 light years from Earth. Yes,
the 10 months might be *subjective* time, but why does the absence
of specific references to FTL mean that they don't have it? It just
as easy to assume that they *do*.

From:   bucsb.bu.edu!boreas     (Michael A. Justice)
> Umm, in the ending, didn't Ripley tell the diary-recorder (or
> whatever you want to call it) that she'd be back in the core
> systems in six months?  Or maybe it was six weeks; it's been a
> while....

Actually, no. What she says is that she'll reach the *frontier* in
six weeks.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 13:34:27 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Aliens (was "and the Computers")

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>"Aliens" contradicts this somewhat, by saying that she was asleep
>for fifty years. But then, the shuttle she was stashed on was never
>advertised as being very fast... If she'd been asleep for fifty
>years, whether on FTL drive or just Epsilon-C drive, she'd be well
>out of range of everything.

It also doesn't say that the shuttle was headed for Earth, or was
picked up near Earth. The shuttle was out for 50 years, but that is
NOT the amount of time it took to get to Earth. That was the amount
of time it took to get to WHEREVER she was when the ship picked her
up.

The shuttle, I believe, was HEADED for Earth, as I seem to remember
Ripley programming its course before she headed for the sleeper. It
may have been going very slow. It matters not one whit.

The speed of the shuttle and the amount of time it was out before it
was picked up is totally independent from any calculations regarding
the distance to the planet on which they discovered the alien.

Sean Huxter
235 Blackmarsh Rd.
Apt 420, St. John's
NF, Canada
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Mar 87 0916-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #116
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Mar 87 0916-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #116
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:

          Books - Robert Adams & Brust & David & DeCamp &
                  Eddings & Elgin & Garrett & Gregorian &
                  Herbert & Hohlbein & Martin & Palmer &
                  Shwartz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1987 13:20 EDT
From: Bruce <BRUCE%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Post-Holocaust Books

One series no one has mentioned is the Horseclans by Adams.  Not
great literature, granted, but somewhat fun to read.  Aside from the
occasional psi power (and one weird life-after-death sequence from
Champion of the Last Battle), this fits into the SF mold, rather
than heavy fantasy, like some of the "mutant stories."

Warnings for those who have not read Horseclans:

This series, for many readers, is comparable in tackiness to Gor.
Grue, violent sex, and cardboard characters.  The evil guys are
usually completely evil and strange in every respect.  Adams is very
heavy- handed with his morals and themes.  Also, several of the
books (I don't remember specific titles) contain whole sections of
previous books in the series.  Adams also is the master of the
flashback-within-flashback- within-flashback form of writing, where
a character remembers something from long ago, and then the event
itself includes the character remembering something from long ago,
ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Still, the series has a lot of action and some fun ideas.  Several
times I've given it just one more chance, and then liked the new
volume enough to get the next.  Still, Horseclans is not for
everyone (possibly even most).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 19:25:10 GMT
From: utai!morenz@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla

What I am about to do is attempt to remember what Brust said last
year at AD ASTRA, corrections /additions welcomed.

The two populations are indeed related, they come from a common
genetic pool, but long since.

There are definite connections and inter-relaionships in the stories
that have been worked out, but he hasn't told us.. as an example he
cited something from his Fairytale (his term) Brokedown Palace.. it
apparently is placed on the same world and some character from there
who wanders off spawns offspring.. blah blah - there was some kind
of connection which I don't remember anything about since I hadn't
read BP so I couldn't follow it at the time. Anyhow it connected to
either Vlad or Cawti.  (Cawti I think I sem to recall a lost
daughter or something -anyone?-) He went on to discuss background
that he has concocted, which helps him figure out his plots, but may
never see print. I agree that Tekla was the better book, and I
believe that things will improve, even if he jumps about in time.
Hmm, guess I don't really remember much , but my impression was that
its pretty well fleshed out in his head.

P.S. Brust is probably not out there since he gave up his job as a
systems analyst to write full time.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP
gpu.utcs.toronto.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 87 22:53:40 GMT
From: osu-eddie!francis@rutgers.edu (RD Francis)
Subject: Knight Life, by Peter David

Knight Life, a book by Peter David

KNIGHT LIFE is a vastly amusing book, written by a very good author.
Though this is his first book, comic book fans should recognize him
as a writer who brought life to some rather old boring characters.
With a rep like that, who shall we take on?  How about none other
than one of the oldest fictional characters around who is still
written about today: King Arthur?

***WARNING: some spoilers may follow, though I will keep them to a
minimum

King arthur, the once and future king, is back.  As he is destined
to be in a position of power, coming back in the 20th century leaves
two major choices: be in charge of the USSR, or the USA.  For
reasons mainly left unsaid, but probably related to Arthur's
background and A desire to be relatively swift in this rise to
power, the USA is chosen.  Of course, you can't just come in from
nowhere and run for president; you need to get into the political
machine by steps.  What better first step than being elected mayor
of New York?

This book is quite funny; it reminds me, in places, of Robert
Asprin's Mythadventures series.  A lot of the humor is due to
Arthur's partial knowledge of the USA in the 1900's; he's kept up
admirably with world events for someone who's been locked up in a
cave for the past dozen centuries or so, but his knowledge is far
from perfect, and his naivete provides a number of laughs.  Of
course, his retinue only adds to the humor; Merlin as an
eight-year-old kid in jeans and a T-shirt?  Morgan Le Fey as a fat,
dumpy broad who spends lots of time watching "Gilligan's Island"
reruns?  I refuse to say more, as I have only so far ruined the
first chapter, and that only slightly. Suffice it to say that
history repeats itself in many ways, and that, in the end, Arthur
faces his deadliest enemy, sword in hand, sure death approaching --
and doesn't avoid it nearly as well as you might think.  Does he
die?  I ain't telling!

If you enjoy humor, if you think politics is a ridiculously complex
business, if you think politicians never speak plainly, if you're a
King Arthur fan, or if you're anything else, I encourage you to buy
this book and read it.  Oh, yes; you might want to make sure you
have a little free time available, too.  While it's not a long book,
it's the first book I have read in a long time, if ever, that I
finished within 3 1/2 hours of when I bought it.  It's that good.

R David Francis
francis@ohio-state.UUCP
cbosgd!ohio-state!francis

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 87 02:12:43 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: WALL OF SERPENTS

From:   batcomputer!cpf (Courtenay Footman)

> Compleat Enchanter is easy to find; it has been reprinted many
> times.  On the other hand, Wall of Serpents is almost impossible
> to find.  I believe that there was only one edition; certainly no
> more than two....Apparantly the book is trapped in some legal
> limbo.  I would appreciate it if anyone could provide more precise
> information.

There has been at least three editions of WALL OF SERPENTS:

(1) Avalon Books, 1960
(2) Phantasia Press, 1978  [small press limited edition]
(3) Dell Books, 1979  [paperback]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1987 15:20 EDT
From: bructemplevm <BRUCE%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: eddings

In response to the "everyone who has read Eddings likes him," let me
say: Not everyone.

<Please note: what follows is my OPINION.  Opinion does not equal
fact, it is merely a statement of preference.>

I found the Belgariad mildly amusing and at best a mild distraction
masquerading as something more.  The characters were stock and the
plot forced.  I thought "guided tour" fantasy went out of style some
time ago, at least I had hoped so.  Nothing really new was said, and
there was not much tension.  Everything turned out pretty much as
expected from the very beginning.

Basically, I was very disappointed.  Eddings seems to be a good
writer, with a sense of description and setting but only a loose
grip on most of the other tools of storytelling.  I may still pick
up the first book in his new series, just to see if his invention
and characterizations have caught up to his writing skill.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 16:35:55 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: RE: series

>-- Elgin, Suzette Hadin Ozark Trilogy, and Coyote Jones series
>recently combined with her book "The End of the Matter" (? title)
>Ozark: Twelve Fair Kingdoms, The Grand Jubilee, And Then There'll
>be Fireworks Jones: 4 books, one is, Star Anchored, Star Angered (5
>with The_End_of_the_Matter)

The other Jones books are The Communipaths, Furthest, At the Seventh
Level.  The combining book is titled "Yonder Comes the Other End of
Time".

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 11:55:39 GMT
From: swb@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Scott Brim)
Subject: Re: Gandalara VII

The dedication of the last book is "To Randall -- I hope I have done
well -- Vicki".  I was also a bit disappointed in the last book.  It
was good to start with but as I read it was clear she was trying to
tie up a whole bunch of loose ends rather quickly.  Too many things
just coincidentally happened to fall into place, and too suddenly.
I'd say the main reason I was disappointed was that I thought the
previous ones had been quite good.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 23:57:51 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Tredana Trilogy

Joyce Ballou Gregorian's trilogy, which began with "The Broken
Citadel" and "Castledown", has been finished, over a decade after
its inception in "The Great Wheel".  It looks as though the author
had a lot of fun writing it.  I had fun reading it.

Those who enjoyed the earlier books will not be disappointed in this
one.  Those who did not should probably read the others first,
though "The Great Wheel" can stand on its own.  They're worth
trying.

*Minor Spoiler*

If the author is planning to write any more books placed in Tredana,
she'll have a restocking job ahead of her: in the third book of her
trilogy she kills her characters off with abandon.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 06:58:48 GMT
From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Dune & Norstrillia (was Re: CHROME)

Peter Silverman (ihnp4!beehive!pjs1) writes:
> (By the way, I have always wanted to know if Frank Herbert got
> some of his ideas for Dune from Cordwainer Smith's book
> "Nostrillia", the plots if not the tone of the two books are
> similiar-- but this question should be for another news group.)

I was struck by the similarity myself.  In fact, I once thought it
would be a nice assignment for an SF Literature course to compare
(and contrast) the two books.

The inhabitants of both planets (the recent arrivals in the case of
Dune, not the natives) were both more or less forcibly expelled from
their previous planet, they both produce a life-prolonging substance
from unique flora or fauna, they both have extremely dangerous fauna
which serve to protect the planet (Mother Hitton's Littel Kittons?),
they are both (natives of Dune, here) incredibly canny strategists
and defend themselves viciously, they both live in a galaxy with a
more or less amoral ruling oligarchy, etc, etc, etc.  Not parallels,
by any means, but quite interesting similiarities.  The planet and
people of Dune are much closer to those of Nostrillia than, say,
Dorsai.

By the way, I was quite amused to note that the movie "Dune" has
been re-released for the home video market.  This release is over
THREE TIMES AS LONG as the North American theater release.  I am
tempted to pester a friend into getting it just to see if it makes
any better sense.

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 12:20:17 GMT
From: clunk!don@rutgers.edu (Don McKillican)
Subject: Wolfgang Hohlbein information request

I recently made a trip to Germany, and while I was there I spent
some time looking for German SF&F.  I managed to find a few things,
one of them a book called "Die Brennende Stadt" (The Burning City)
by Wolfgang Hohlbein, being the first book of (what else?) a trilogy
called "Der Stein der Macht" (The Stone of Power).  I was quite
impressed with the book: Hohlbein has a very strong sense of
physical immediacy -- when he is describing a long trek in the
winter I found myself almost shivering vicariously (didn't help that
I wasn't prepared for the cold weather in Germany either :-)).  And
there are probably very few writers in English who could describe a
firestorm with as much authority.  He also starts the novel in the
middle of his story very effectively (I was wondering for the first
twenty pages whether I had picked up volume 2 by mistake!), and
thereafter plays the game of switching back and forth between
present and past, leaving me grinding my teeth in frustration every
time he switched.  Quite a good novel all round, in fact.  (No, I
have no idea whether it's been translated)

But a question: the cover blurb seems to imply that this is not the
first novel Hohlbein has written in the "Enwor" universe.  Can
anyone, in Germany or elsewhere, tell me what the order of the other
Enwor books is?  Pointers to other good German SF&F would also be
much appreciated.

Thanks,
Don McKillican
seismo!mnetor!genat!clunk!don
{utgpu,utai,utzoo,watmath}!lsuc!clunk!don

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 18:05:57 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Nightflyers -- George R. R. Martin

   I just recently bought an anthalogy of stories by George R. R.
Martin called Nightflyers. (after having waited for the paperback
because the thing contains only 2 stories not in his earlier
collections, or other anthologies) The cover says "Soon to be a
Major Motion Picture".  I assume they are refering to the title
story "Nightflyers".  Does anyone know anything about this?

   The story, incidentally, is excellent, and should make a good
movies if they get a decent script writer.  It's short enough that
they should be able to get it into a two hour movie without
butchering it, and doesn't have a lot of background that has to be
explained to the audience before getting into the meat of the plot.
If they do it justice, it will definitely not be a movie for the
faint of heart or weak of stomach to see.  Should have some
interesting special effects too, as a lot of the action takes place
in zero G.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 87 19:38 EST
From: nj (Who?) <SQCR6W%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re:      SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #111

> David R. Palmer.
>      _Emergence_
>      _Threshold_

Whoops!  You misread my letter.  _Threshold_ is entirely unrelated
to _Emergence_--it's not post-holocaust at all--and, in my opinion,
is vastly inferior.

BTW, as an aside about post-holocaust: I've never read _The Time
Machine_, though I vaguely remember watching the movie.  Does that
count as post-holocaust in that the narrator goes into the future
past the holocaust?  Or was there supposedly a holocaust at all?

nj

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 15:54:44 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Byzantium's Crown

                        ** mild spoilers **

This is a new Questar book, written by Susan Shwartz, with a cover
by Rowena, who really should have read the book first.

It is another alternative history, with the premise that the Battle
of Actium (Spengler's favourite turning point, and one of mine too)
went the other way.  Some time later, Byzantine Prince Marric, sold
into slavery by his usurping stepmother Irene, tries to regain his
throne, with the help of Stephana, "a silver haired slave girl of
awesome powers" - and, incidentally, one of the best characters in
the book.

Very little of the history since Actium is given, but we have
Varaingians, Huns, Arabs who yell "there is no god but god" and wave
green flags, so some centuries have passed.  Centuries, moreover,
with negligible scientific or technical progress.

I found this a reasonable adventure yarn, with fewer bloopers than
usual (pirates sailing dromons? cotton from India? theatrical
performances in the Hippodrome?)  and some understanding of the
period.  Correctly labelled 'Fantasy'.  ISBN 0-445-20356-9.

Watch out for the crocodiles.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Mar 87 1100-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #117
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Mar 87 1100-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #117
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:

             Miscellaneous - Fanzines & Decompression &
                             Stardrives & Convention List &
                             Whither Short SF? (3 msgs) &
                             Back Cover Blurbs (3 msgs) &
                             Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 11:10 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Fanzines
Cc: 6103014@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Harold Feld),
Cc:  DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

Media fanzines number in the hundreds.  For information on ones
currently for sale and/or soliciting contributions, I recommend a
fanzine on fanzines: Datazine; P.O. Box 19413; Denver, CO 80219.  I
think they're bimonthly.  I have no affiliation with them, by the
way.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 18:38:51 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

Breathing vacuum:

Archur Clarke's _Earthlight_ (go ahead, flame me, I probably got it
wrong) contains one of the classic "vacuum-breathing" scenes, an
airlock-to-airlock transfer in deep space.

Scott Bayes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 21:38:11 EST
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Stardrive impossibility again

I guess someone should just post something like the following
regularly, since the stardrive discussion is perennial:

Under the laws of *modern* physics (including QED, QCD, etc.), FTL
is impossible. No matter how you try -- tunneling, uncertainty, or
just revving your engines real hard, you can't do it. This is not
because of the dilation equations, this is a fundamental result
predicated on causality and relativity. The phenomenon is
technically known as "Einsteinian Locality".

The above paragraph does not mean that FTL is impossible, it means
you can't consistently argue that FTL is possible given current
physical notions.

Therefore, when reading SF involving FTL, I am far happier to
discover that "current" physics has revolutionized the theory than
to read some half-assed explanation of how the drive actually works
(three opposing forces on a gyroscope, give me a break....).

In other words, I am willing to suspend my disbelief, since it is
POSSIBLE that there is another more "correct" physical theory that
would allow FTL.  I am not willing to shatter my belief, since I
know that present theory cannot allow FTL.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 9:34:35 CST
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA
Subject: Re: Anyone have a list of cons? [SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #112]

Boy, is there a list of cons!  For the last several years (> 5), I
have been maintaining a public list of SF/fantasy conventions for
the Internet users.

The file is updated on a day-to-day basis, and the up-to-date
version is always available for FTP.  Additionally, after major
updates, I post an update-notice to the net, including to the
SF-LOVERS digest.  The most recent major update was in the last 30
days.

You can FTP it from host SRI-NIC.ARPA, file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT -
SRI-NIC supports ANONYMOUS FTP login with any password.  Those
internet users who don't have direct ARPANet/MilNet FTP access can
get it by return mail by sending a request to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA.
There is a mailing-list for update-notices, and a second one for
those who can't FTP the file - the second list gets both the
broadcast update-notice message and the entire file in a following
message.

The file is currenly about 30 printed pages long, when formatted for
page breaks at about 60 lines per page.  It is world-wide, not just
USA, and the front of the file contains a geographic cross-reference
(by date, listing city but not con-name, within alphabetic country
or state); the remainder of the file is by date, with cons on the
same dates listed alphabetically by con-name.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 16:26:34 PST
From: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Epic multivolume series.

I've been observing the dialog on this net for about 6 months or so
and notice that the preponderence of the postings are with regard to
the multivolume epic octologies ( is that a word?? ) that seem to
fill the shelves of the SF sections of most book stores.  While not
disparaging anyone's taste or judgement, I must say that the
majority of these grand sagas turn out to be quite disappointing.
This may be simply because I haven't found the right one yet, but I
don't think it is because I haven't tried.

  What I'm getting at is this: doesn't anyone write (or publish)
SHORT S-F any longer?  When I got "into" reading S-F, many moons
ago, the field was dominated by anthologies of short stories.  Now
it is rare to find a single anthology on the shelves that isn't one
of the "Six Great SF Yarns of the Thirties" genre.  I know that it
is being written, since Asimov's (yawn), F & SF, and Analog, to
mention the biggies, are still to be found.

  Why has this come to pass?  Is there more money in getting the
suckers hooked on a seventeen volume epic, the plot line of which is
likely pinched from Celtic mythology, than there is in publishing
tight, well crafted short fiction.  Someone (maybe it was PT Barnum,
though I may be wrong) once said (I paraphrase) that if you can't
write your idea on the back of my business card, you haven't got
much of an idea.  Es verdad??

spl

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 23:18:29 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: Epic multivolume series.

Alas, it seems to be getting harder and harder to get publishers to
even look at books of short stories.  To my mind, there's still
quite a lot of good short sf being written, but the trend is toward
there being less and less of it.  The authors themselves, once
established, end up avoiding short stories, because there's so
little market for them.  Important books like Gene Wolfe's "The
Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and other stories" of Karen
Fowler's "Artificial Things" never get hardcover editions, and even
in paperback are hard to find.  The original anthologies, which
broke so much important ground in the seventies, are nearly all
dead; the only exception that comes to mind is Terry Carr's
"Universe" series, and even that can only be bought by mail or at
specialized bookstores.

Why don't today's fans like short stories?  With writers like Lucius
Shepard, Kim Stanley Robinson, and Connie Willis still writing short
stories, there is no lack of good stories.  Short sf is still where
trends are set, where the boundaries of the field are pushed back.
The Dozois "Best of the Year" volumes are probably the best way to
follow what is happening, aesthetically, in sf.  I don't understand
why people aren't interested.

To finish with recommendations: the Dozois "Best of the Year" book
should be out next month; "Universe 17" in July.  Highly
recommended: Robinson's "The Planet on the Table", Fowler's
"Artificial Things", Bishop's "Close Encounters with the Deity",
Wolfe's "Book of Days" and "Island of Doctor Death", Tanith Lee's
recent collection from Arkham house, Russ's "The Zanzibar Cat",
Connie Willis's "Fire Watch", George R. R. Martin's "Tuf Voyaging".
Short sf is still vital; it just needs more of an audience.

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 07:13:07 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Epic multivolume series.

It is by no means true that the short story is dead in SF; in fact,
it is far easier to get a short story published (for money) in SF
than in Li-Fi.

What is rare is for a writer with no published novel to publish a
book of short stories. But Connie Willis and Karen Joy Fowler have
both done this recently.

What really bothers me is that Lucius Shepard's short stuff is not
being collected into paperback volumes nearly fast enough. Oh, sure,
every anthology published today has a Shepard story in it, but I
want a volume of ten-to-twelve stories by LS himself. (_The Jaguar
Hunter_, due out any day from Arkham, will only have 3 novellas, and
I think they're going to be strung together into a novel-like
sequence.)

The reasons that short stories are doing best in Shared Universe
Anthologies (which are a quite noticable percentage of Fantasy, and
a growing percent of science fiction, books) is the same as the
preponderence of novel series: people like reading more stories
about characters they like, especially by authors whom they enjoy.

Don't despair. Buy the digests if you want short stories; that's
where things are really at, these days.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 03:44:46 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Back cover writers

marlinw@tekchips.UUCP (Marlin Wilson) writes:
>I didn't associate the back cover with the story -- 'most
>chilling'?  Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the book.

Yuk.  They're doing a singularly lousy job of it.  Is there any
reason authors don't write their own back covers?  That way, we
could tell what the book's about without reading the first chapter.
I'd buy more books if I could get a vaguely reliable summary.

Has anyone seen a Science Fiction (Aside: I like `sci-fi' because
it's marginally easier to say back cover blurb that didn't contain
one (or more) of the following:

`Thrilling'
`Suspenseful'
`Mission'
`Save the {world,human race,future,etc.}'
`Hair-raising'
`!'

Colin Plumb
watmath!watnot!ccplumb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 13:16:22 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Back cover writers

>>Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the book.
>
>Yuk.  They're doing a singularly lousy job of it.

Some of my friends read a lot of science fiction.  I like to grab
one of the books they're in the midst of, and then read the blurbs
out loud with full dramatic relish, and then give the book back.
It's lots of fun.  (I can tell when they're not at a major juncture.
I may be obnoxious, but I do have friends.  And it's a lot more
amusing in person than it may sound.)

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 23:16:30 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Back cover writers (Was: The Adolescence of P1)

ccplumb@watnot.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes:
>marlinw@tekchips.UUCP (Marlin Wilson) writes:
>>I didn't associate the back cover with the story -- 'most
>>chilling'?  Back-cover-writers get paid to get you to buy the
>>book.
>
>Yuk.  They're doing a singularly lousy job of it.  Is there any
>reason authors don't write their own back covers?  That way, we
>could tell what the book's about without reading the first chapter.
>I'd buy more books if I could get a vaguely reliable summary.

My most "chilling" example of this particular yuckiness: The back
cover of CJCherryh's HUNTER OF WORLDS.  Something about Aiela (sp?
-the main character) being forcibly mind-linked with TWO OTHER
HUMANS.  In the book, not only is Aiela himself not human, but only
one of the two people he is mind-linked to is human.  But, you see,
the cover blurb would have been too CONFUSING for the bookstore
browser...  Ugh.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 11:47:23 CST
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: Re: Time Travel (Does anyone have the time?)

I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more!  Time travel
where one retruns to the past is the purest form of fantasy.  Any
story about time travel should be called, by definition, Fantasy
(Re: What's the big difference between science fiction and fantasy).

mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu writes:
>The reason velocity is defined the way it is is because time is
>viewed to be unrelated to distance....

Time IS unrelated to distance.  However, according to special
relativity, time is indeed a function of velocity (relative
velocity, to be precise).  Thus one may "travel" forward in time by
travelling in space with respect to a given frame of reference.  As
you approach the speed of light, a relatively stationary observer
would see you (and your watch) stop.  The observer would also see
your mass approach infinity.  Since you can't get more massive than
infinitely massive, the best you can hope to do is to make time stop
in your frame of reference and thus travel infinitely into the
future (again, relative to the observer).

ellis@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk writes:
>For example, quantum dynamics allows a particle, an antiparticle
>and a photon to appear from nowhere, exist for a short time, and
>disappear again. Where does the energy discrepancy come from ? The
>answer is there is none. The energy of the local system is balanced
>by a loss in energy later on

This is a virtual phenomenom that is predicted by quantum theory but
cannot be observed.  In other words, it's not real; it's an
interesting artifact of the mathematics of quantum theory (see
Feynman diagrams).

>... a particle moving forward in time is exactly analagous to its
>antiparticle moving backwards in time, and so the whole system can
>be seen as a closed loop of mass energy chasing its own tail in
>time.

Again, this is an artifact of the mathematics (put a minus sign in
the time components of equations that describe a particle and you
get the anti-particle.  Do it again and you're back to the original
particle.).  Anti-particles move forward in time just like their
particle counterparts.  The names "particle" and "anti-particle" are
really naming conventions used to distinguish equal but opposite
characteristics of particles.

I must cut this posting short because I have to ride my flying
dragon through the eye of a needle so I can get to the teleportation
booth before it closes and go to Andromeda before midnight or else
I'll turn into a pumpkin and spontaneously burst into flames.

(By the way, I enjoy a good time travel yarn for the very reason
that one can have a lot of fun with all the paradox's involved.)

Marco Barbarisi
marco@ncsc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 14:04:14 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time travel and energy

I have been following the discussion on Time Travel and am not sure
what to think about moving the same matter to different times. Time
travel is, essentially, moving matter through time. Now the argument
is whether or not this is violating the Matter Conservation Law.

One view is that the Universe is the domain of the Law, and the
Universe is 4 dimensional (at least) and that moving the matter from
one time to another is no more violating the law than if you move
matter from one PLACE to another.  It is just another axis on the 4d
grid.

Well, my addition to this is:

Can you move matter through time to a place where this matter
already exists?  Putting the same matter in more than one place at
the same time is just as possible as putting the same matter in more
than one time in the same place.

Can you put the same matter in more than one time in the same place?
Sure.  You are now, where you were sitting 10 seconds ago. You have
been in the same place for at least two distinct times. The sentence
means the same if you say 'Can you put the same matter in the same
place in more than one time?'.

And dat's de ticket!

Sean Huxter
235 Blackmarsh Rd.
Apt 420, St. John's
NF, Canada
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Mar 87 1121-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #118
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Mar 87 1121-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #118
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:

           Books - Koontz (2 msgs) & Lafferty (2 msgs) &
                   L'Engle (2 msgs) & Rand (2 msgs) & 
                   Rosenberg & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny & 
                   Post Holocaust Works

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1987 16:07 EDT
From: Bruce <BRUCE%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Dean Koontz

The listing of 1986 bestsellers jogged a memory...

Dean Koontz's "Strangers" was listed, and not long ago (net time)
there was a question about Koontz (what's he doing now, why hasn't
he done any SF lately, etc).  Well, Koontz wrote a book for Writer's
Digest not long ago called "Writing Bestselling Fiction" or some
such.  Generally a very cogent, useful effort.  But in it he writes
frequently and at some length about his "escape" from the "ghetto"
of SF.  Apparently, he now considers himself a "mainstream" writer,
and much the better for freeing himself of the chains of SF.  He
seemed deadly serious.  The whole part of the book on "literary
ghettos" (such as romance, SF, adventure, etc) had me laughing out
loud, for while Koontz writes long and vociferously about being
"free" he has also actually chained himself into just another
"ghetto," that of the psychological horror.

Anyway, I suspect that we won't be seeing anymore of Bink and his
minidrag Pip, or whatever the stories were that Koontz wrote.  In
the final analysis, I suspect that he found he could be much better
paid in his new "ghetto" and thus feels that he is now writing
"literature."

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 22:48:41 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Dean Koontz ** SPOILER WARNING **

BRUCE@TEMPLEVM.BITNET writes:
>The listing of 1986 bestsellers jogged a memory...  Dean Koontz's
>"Strangers" was listed...
>But in it [an article about writing] he writes frequently and at
>some length about his "escape" from the "ghetto" of SF.
>Apparently, he now considers himself a "mainstream" writer, and
>much the better for freeing himself of the chains of SF.  He seemed
>deadly serious.

   That's kind of funny, adding to it my private assessment of
_Strangers_, which I read a couple weeks ago.  I though it was
generally a good read, better stylistically than King, with few of
those "rough" spots I expect to find in any of King's books (with
the possible exception of _Different Seasons_).  However, it had a
major problem, which I found disappointing, though not enough to
distract from the overall readability (how's that for waffling? :-).
It started out as a nice, creepy, horror novel, turned into another
mainstream-type "the evil government/scientists/commies/<insert your
favorite baddie here>" thriller, and then ended up as a goshwow (see
what one learns reading sf-lovers? :-) alien contact story.  Each of
the first two separate pieces was good, though they hung together a
bit awkwardly.  The SF ending, though, was severely lacking in just
about everything that makes good SF good-- it was just a surface
treatment of a realization that Things Might Change.  That was it;
the story's over.  It left me wanting to know the ramifications of
the contact.  It also left me thinking he wouldn't be able to write
good SF, and was merely pandering to the mainstream acceptance of a
few SFish plot devices.  I did, however, like the book enough to
give a try to another of his horror efforts; I just picked up
_Phantom_ today.

Joel Plutchak
uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster
ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu
BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 17:16:49 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: R A Lafferty

Chris Drumm has published both a checklist of Lafferty's work and
several inexpensive booklets with previously unpublished stories.
There is also a booklet of essays, most originally published in an
Italian fanzine.  He is now in the process of publishing a series of
novels by Lafferty; they will be published as a (very large) set of
booklets.  I don't have the adress handy right now, but the latest
issue of F&SF has a Budrys review of Drumm's latest booklet (not by
Lafferty), from which one can get the address; I can also post the
address if there's enough demand: drop me a note.

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 23:34:46 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: R A Lafferty

As I mentioned in my previous posting, Chris Drumm ("the man who
made booklets") has published checklists of the works of several
authors, notably Lafferty, and has also published several booklets
of short stories by Lafferty.  He is now in the course of publishing
a series of novels by Lafferty, still in the booklet form (it's
going to take a lot of booklets...).  These are very inexpensive,
but well-made; there are also signed collector's editions of some of
the booklets.  His address is:

   Chris Drumm books
   P. O. Box 445
   Polk City, Iowa 50226.

He'll send catalogs on request (he also sells used and new sf
books).

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 28 Mar 1987 08:35:11-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Madeleine L'Engle

> From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM   (Scott Gellerman)
> "A Wrinkle In Time" is the first book in her Time Trilogy.  The
> second book is "A Wind in the Door", and the final book is "A
> Swiftly Tilting Planet."  Each book is separable and can be read
> on its own.  The characters grow older and develop nicely
> throughout the series....

The big problem I had with the second and third books in the series
is that they are *too* independent of each other and A WRINKLE IN
TIME. In each one, the children are so totally astounded that
strange things are happening to them that you'd think that nothing
strange had ever happened to them before. Neither one refers to the
previous book(s) at all.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 18:23:18 GMT
From: utai!morenz@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle

Here ! Here !
It's a shame that publishers (actually adults in general) make many
assumptions about what children will/not understand that prove to be
wildly erroneous or a gross oversimplification - I have seen too
many examples (in my years as a swimming instructor) of adults
treating kids as kids instead of attempting to deal with them as
people. The small ones are getting surprisingly bright at an earlier
age every year. Has anyone out there ever noted that small
(people-aliens-magical beings) tend to be viewed as childlike (I'm
generalizing a bit - I know) and' less intelligent as a rule?

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP
gpu.utcs.toronto.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 15:31:43 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand

KFL@MX writes:
>Even if you don't agree with her philosophy of Objectivism, her
>books will really shake up your thought patterns, which is after
>all what SF is FOR, anyway.

The only shake up that occurred in my thought patterns while reading
the book was when flying home on a plane, about 70% through the
book, and I spied the headlines on other people's newspapers that
referred to Mexico nationalizing its banks.  I kept thinking "Oh no,
the People's Republic of Mexico has nationalized its banks."  That
shake up didn't last long.

The real shake up occurred years later when I learned that there
were people who took _Atlas Shrugged_ religiously.  I couldn't
believe it.

Her best work of fiction, of course, is _Introduction to Objectivist
Epi- stemology_.  It doesn't have a plot, but it's completely mind
boggling, the way PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE is.  (Her short story "An
Open Letter to Boris Spassky" [in _Philosophy: Who Needs It?_],
sometimes called "Rand to Gibber Four", is a profound classic, not
to be missed.  The tension created by her usage of a first person
narrator who is completely ignorant of the game of chess while
carrying on an imaginary dialectical ex- change with the world
champion in a completely condescending manner makes for gut-rolling
humor.  The suspension of disbelief is difficult at this point,
however.  After all, no one in real life would actually say such
moronic things about chess as the narrator does.)

>I do not know why Shea and Wilson have such an antipathy, since
>they claim to be libertarians, which share most ideas with
>objectivists.  Their parody ("Telemachus Sneezed" and "Militarism:
>The Unknown Ideal for the new Heraclitean") make it clear they
>didn't understand a word they read.

Like all true believers in the word of Rand, Keith can only
interpret disagreement with Rand as some sort of mental blockage.
Get real.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 22:14:15 GMT
From: scdpyr!faulkner@rutgers.edu (Bill Faulkner)
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand

KFL@MX.LCS.MIT.EDU writes:
> I do not know why Shea and Wilson have such an antipathy, since
> they claim to be libertarians, which share most ideas with
> objectivists.  Their parody ("Telemachus Sneezed" and "Militarism:
> The Unknown Ideal for the new Heraclitean") make it clear they
> didn't understand

The main problem with most objectivists (remind you not all) is that
they tend to worship at the altar of logic and refuse to see much of
the humor in many things, especially objectivism.  This is why Shea
and Wilson prod so much fun at Rand and objectivism.  They can goad
many objectivists into getting angry with them and maybe, just maybe
rattle their cages so they stop looking at Rand as a savior.  This
is just part of what is called guerrilla ontology, and Shea and
Wilson use it endlessly.  BTW I know many objectivists,
libertarians, anarchists an their ilk (or is that my ilk, I am at
least one of those if not all three), some of the objectivists
really love Wilson and Shea and others apparently like you are
rather lukewarm towards them.  Basicly I see Wilson (I not sure
about Shea) as understanding much about objectivism, but rejecting
it as the basis for libertarian thought.  The rigid dogmatic logic
structure of many objectivists is not for everybody, and it is
especially repugnant to most avowed discordians (such as Wilson and
Shea).

While I have made many generalizations in this article, I realize
that each entity has its own thoughts and feelings and to
catorgorize all objectivists into one narrow slot is not right.  I
am just talking about a portion of the objectivists and if you are
not in that catagory, don't flame me about generalizations.  BTW I
don't believe 90% of what I write, so believe what you will.

Bill Faulkner
NCAR (Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research)
PO Box 3000
Boulder, CO  80307-3000
303-497-1259
UUCP:  faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP
       hao!scdpyr!faulkner
INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu
ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 MAR 1987  20:01 EST
From: David Liebreich <KDCLIEB%LEHICDC1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Rosenberg

Does anyone know if there will be a fourth book in Joel Rosenberg's
series _Guardians_of_the_Flame_, and if so, when?

While I'm on the subject, let me recommend the first three books,
_The_ Sleeping_Dragon_, _The_Sword_and_the_Chain_, and
_The_Silver_Crown_ as worthwhile reading.  Even though these books
are hard-core fantasy, the writing style and plot development are
very good.

When I look for books to read, I don't really care in which genre
they are classified.  I look for a book that will keep me interested
enough to continue reading.  A great plot will do nothing if a
Herculean effort is necessary to read beyond the first chapter, and
likewise, the best writing style will not save a plot that's
downright stupid.  I have encountered both.

_Guardians_of_the_Flame is fun reading, and I recommend it as such.

Dave Liebreich
BITNet:  DCL1@LEHIGH.BITNET
         KDCLIEB@LEHICDC1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 87 11:46:35 -0800
From: obrien@aero2.aero.org
Subject: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother

   This is a specialty question for those folks who've read "The
Book of the New Sun" with some degree of care.

   Wolfe claims that he tied up all the loose ends.  Wolfe is also
known for incredible subtleties.  Therefore, I'd like to know if
anyone out there has any clues as to the real identity of Severian's
mother.

   Ouen claims that her name was Catherine, and that she ran away
from a group of monials.  Some time after her tryst with Ouen, the
law took her away, presumably to the Matachin Tower, where the
infant Severian was adopted into the Order.

   The question is, can anyone match this up with any of the other
characters in the book?  Cyriaca, for instance?  Or is it indeed
true that this was some completely new person, never met or referred
to by anyone else?

Mike O'Brien
obrien@aerospace.aero.org
{trwrb,sdcrdcf}!aero!obrien

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 01:08:45 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother

I feel fairly confident in stating that Catherine was not in any way
connected with the other characters of the novel. Although with the
bizarre folds in time, there's always the possibility that Catherine
is Saint Katherine, the patron of the Order of Seekers of Truth and
Penitence. But I'd have to see some real, textual evidence for this
before I would accept it. Maybe there's something about her in
_Castle of The Otter_ (or maybe one or the other Catherine will be
mentioned in _The Urth of the New Sun_, which is due out in November
from Tor).

Is there anyone else out there willing, as I am, to make the claim
that this four-volume novel is the crowning achievement of
S(peculative)F(iction)?  I read these as they came out, and thought
highly of them; but when I re-read them in one sitting earlier in
the year, I (figuratively) saw God.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 09:58:32 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Blood of Amber (* SPOILER *) - Why is Merlin so stupid?

I've read that damned book twice, and I didn't catch the one-eyed,
lop-eared wolf business.  Damn!  Maybe Merlin IS stupid, but if so,
so am I.  Anyway, I'm glad you pointed that out.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 16:23:06 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Post-Holocaust Works--Addendum

From:   ihlpa!fish      (Bob Fishell)
> I looked over both the lists, and I failed to notice a novella
> titled "The House by the Crabapple Tree," which was one of the
> most emotionally stunning pieces of "post-holocaust" SF I have
> ever read.  The trouble is, I cannot remember who wrote it.  It
> appeared in _The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction_ in the
> middle '60s, I think, and I'm sure I've seen it anthologized
> somewhere.  I looked for it in my collection of anthologies,
> though, and I couldn't find it.

It's by S.S. Johnson, and first appeared in F&SF, February 1964. The
only anthology it's appeared in is THE BEST FROM FANTASY AND SCIENCE
FICTION #14 (edited by Avram Davidson).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Mar 87 1142-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #119
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Mar 87 1142-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #119
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Mar 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:

             Books - Chalker (9 msgs) & Magic (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 16:35:52 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic)

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>4. His current series (the name eludes me at the moment) - Even
>   more mystic because the Master System has placed most of its
>   constituents into a pre-computer mode. What does Silent Woman
>   and Cloud Dancer think when they pop into a chamber on a ship
>   and pop out of another on the surface of a planet? That's right
>   - magic.
>
> So what Chalker does is put incredible science into the hands of
> the ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant). The result is magic.
>
> BTW does anyone have a canonical listing of Chalker's works that
> could be sent to me? I find all of his work fascinating.


Uh, that series is "Rings of the Masters", so far consisting of two
books (more to come), the first of which I can't recall (_Lords of
the Inner Dark_?) and _Pirates of the Thunder_, just recently out.

Eric C.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 19:45:37 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Jack L. Chalker (was Information (details and Magic))

From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes in response to Mark Biggar:
>> Poof! you're a frog...now where did I learn enough about the
>> genetic structure of a frog to turn you into a functional
>> amphibian?
>
>I can imagine a magician poof!ing you into a frog (for your
>insolence :-) with no knowledge of genetics just as easily as a
>gourmet might eat and digest you afterwards with no knowledge of
>digestion.

Like many authors who do their writing on computers, Chalker injects
a lot of programming into his books, often in very subtle ways.

For example, it is not necessary for a magician in the "Soul Rider"
series to know every bit about, say, creating a cup of coffee, from
the atomic level on up. Instead, the magician would call up
sub-programs to create a cup, create some coffee, and heat it up,
and could then combine all of these sub-programs into an "I want a
cup of coffee" program. Or, "Make that person into a sexy bombshell"
program, given what you've already figured are the specific commands
involved in making somebody sexy, and a bombshell (long hair, high
explosives, that sort of thing).

Bottom up programming at its finest. There were a lot of
inconsistencies in the books; such as the chromosone problem in Book
Four that was totally ignored in the previous three.

I have this sneaky suspicion that Chalker combines the writing
process with the creative process... in the "Four Lords of the
Diamond" serial, Chalker would only introduce characters and planets
from the previous books, while leaving the future ones as surprises.

If this "if the characters haven't been there yet, then nobody else
in the entire world will know any more about it than them, but when
they get there, suddenly it's _the_ place to be" sort of plot
development was confined to this one serial, than I could see
(maybe) the point of leaving the other planets wide open. But it's
prevalent in all of his series. This one's just the worst.

The "Five Rings" series does this deliberately, as the main
characters learn more of the universe that was, until recently, the
stuff of legend and superstition. Each plateau they come to allows
them to see the next mesa rising ahead. I think this is a case of
Chalker playing to his weaknesses.

BTW, has anybody noticed the broad similarities between Chalkers
"Labyrinth of Dreams", and Mike Resnick's "Stalking the Unicorn"?
You've got your basic down-in-his-socks hard-boiled detective, your
basic trip into alternate universes, etc.

Of the two, I liked Resnick's "Stalking the Unicorn" best, even
though it had that awful "U" word in the title. There was a certain
sense of fantastical whimsy about it... A good, light read.

Chalker's "Labyrinth" does not work as a mystery or as detective
fiction (but perhaps I've just been reading too many of Robert
Parker's "Spenser" series lately). The alternate universe schtick is
extremely overused. The beginning of the book introduced a company
that sold and distributed all those "Kitchen Magician" and
"Bass-o-matics" and "Slim Whitman" albums that the UHF stations are
full of. I saw some real possibilities there for a fun book, but
Chalker lost that thread - and I think he could have made it work,
given his "Dancing Gods" series - and continued with the sf
detective plot. Disappointing.

For a GOOD science fiction/mystery/detective book, read Vernor
Vinge's "Marooned in Real Time". I can't say enough about this book
- it is well written, the characters are real; there is a particular
scene in the book which showed me exactly how much I'd come to care
for them (I'm thinking of the passage at the end of the diary).

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 20:01:40 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: A List of Jack L. Chalker Books

The Devil's Voyage
Dancers in the Afterglow
Web of the Chozen
A Jungle of Stars
War of Shadows
"Adrift Among the Ghosts" (short story, published on Delphi)
Downtiming the Night Side
The Identity Matrix
... And the Devil Will Drag You Under

Well World Series:
        Midnight at the Well of Souls
        Twilight at the Well of Souls
        The Return of Nathan Brazil
   (can't remember the names of the other two, I'm doing this
    from memory).

Four Lords of the Diamond:
        Lilith: Snake in the Grass
        Charon:
        Cerberus:
        Medusa:

Dancing Gods:
        River of the Dancing Gods
        Demons of the Dancing Gods
        Vengeance of the Dancing Gods
(Chalker has hinted at another book in this series...)

Soul Rider:
        Spirits of Flux and Anchor
        Masters of Flux and Anchor
        Empire of Flux and Anchor
        Birth of Flux and Anchor
        Children of Flux and Anchor

Masters of the Rings:
        Lords of the Middle Dark
        Pirates of the Thunder
(There are two more books in this series, written but not released)

G.O.D. Inc:
        Labyrinth of Dreams
(This series is open-ended - it has no definite ending).

He also has a short story collection coming out called "Dance Band
on the Titanic", or some such.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 1987 09:53:31-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Chalker  (was "Information (details and Magic))

Warning: Minor spoilers contained within!

byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) writes:
> Jack Chalker has quite a few things in common in all of his stuff
> that I've read. ...
>
>    1. He writes series.
>    2. They involve computers.
>    3. The computers are sentient.
>    3. These computers have the ability to change the environment.
>       i.e. create something out of "nothing".
>    4. Humans can interface to the computers without an obvious
>       physical connection.
>    5. The computers respond to the humans' request.
>    6. Humans have no working knowledge of computer or interface.

I can add at least two more:

  7. Immortality.  Many of Chalker's characters live enormous life
     spans.  (e.g., Mavra Chang and Nathan Brazil from the
     _Well_World_ series, Cass and Matson from the _Sould_Rider_
     series, etc).

  8. Sex Change.  Of late, Chalker seems to have become obsessed
     with sexual metamorphoses.  In many of his recent books, the
     sexual orientations and characteristics of his characters
     change almost every chapter. :-) He also seems to have a
     fixation for the size of the male genitalia.  (Every time a
     character "becomes" a male, he is surprised and pleased to
     notice that all of the sudden he is blessed with enormous sex
     organs.)  Initially, I thought Chalker's foray into this area
     was an intriguing exploration of human sexual biases and
     viewpoints.  Lately, though, I'm convinced it's just one of
     Chalker's minor obsessions.

Personally, I used to be a big Chalker fan; I've read a LOT of his
stuff.  I've become very bored with his books lately, though.  There
are TOO many similarities in his works.  I feel as though I'm
reading the same ideas, over and over again -- recycled with a
slightly different setting.  I've stopped buying his books.  It's a
shame, too.  I really liked the _Well_World_ series, the first of
his I ever read.

Brian M. Clapper
Naval Air Development Center
Warminster, PA
ARPA: clapper@nadc
UUCP: ...harvard!clapper@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 17:08:14 GMT
From: mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende)
Subject: Re: Chalker  (was "Information (details and Magic))

 Please dont forget the following:

9.  All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or
    any of the "laws of nature".  Look at well world, lord of the
    diamonds, flux, ...
10. Many of his books are placed in the same universe (or similar
    universe).  Where the government is communist and people are
    molded into the governments' idea of the ideal citizen.
11. All of his books explore a different type of govermental system.
    Many of the systems that he describes are specialy tailored for
    the environment of the planet (or the other way around.)
12. Chalker will try to show that communism is inferior to other
    systems and often show that its inhabitants want to change from
    the mold that they have been forced into.

ARPA: mende@rutgers.edu
BITNET: mende@zodiac.bitnet
UUCP: rutgers!mende

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 21:50:46 GMT
From: byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: Chalker  (was "Information (details and Magic))

mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) writes:

>9.  All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or
>    any of the "laws of nature".  Look at well world, lord of the

I'm not so sure about this one. On Well World the Well computer
monkeyed with the Markovian space-time equations to get the funky
physics. All the hexes followed the "laws of nature" defined by the
programmer who had the math to transcend the default laws.

Chalker gave a pretty detailed technical explanation of how flux
worked also.  All of the precepts were within the realm of modern
physics.  Again the programming of the 28 anchor computers allowed
them to manipulate flux at will. I'm a couple of months away from
_Birth of Flux and Anchor_ but I think I've got the right idea.

Lord of the diamonds is an execption to a point. But light, gravity,
electo- mag and other physical phenomena worked as the default. Of
course the bonding of the microscopic organisms and humans and their
interaction is little far.

So I find that Chalker supercedes the current laws of physics
instead of breaking them. He incorporates them into the new
discoveries (Markovian equations, flux etc.) that allow things that
can't happen in modern physics. I see it as an extension of the
incorporation of classical into modern physics.

Byron Jeff
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!byron

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 03:22:14 GMT
From: watnot!ccplumb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Jack L. Chalker (Was: Information (details and Magic))

byron@gitpyr.UUCP (Byron A Jeff) writes:
>Jack Chalker has quite a few things in common in all of his stuff
>that I've read. This of course is not law!  Qualify each of these
>with mostly/almost always/always (your choice).
>
>   1. He writes series.
>   2. They involve computers.
>   3. The computers are sentient.
>   3. These computers have the ability to change the environment.
>      i.e. create something out of "nothing".
>   4. Humans can interface to the computers without an obvious
>      physical connection.
>   5. The computers respond to the humans' request.
>   6. Humans have no working knowledge of computer or interface.

Well, I'd like to suggest the `River of the Dancing Gods' series as
a counterexample to points 2-6, and `Web of the Chozen,' `The Devil
Will Drag You Under,' and one other (the bad guys were called
`machists') as counterexamples to point 1, but I'd like to add
another point, entirely unrelated to the above:

   7. In every book, a large number of major characters
      go walking around naked.

I find he does write interesting stuff - not great, but a good read.
The above fetish (perhaps that's too strong a word) does put me off
a bit, though.

Colin Plumb
watmath!watnot!ccplumb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 00:15:13 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic)

I read a Chalker book once: _The_River_of_Dancing_Gods_. As far as I
recall, it had NO computers whatsoever in it, though it was SF
disguised as fantasy.
  Someone else on the net once gave a different formula for
Chalker's work, something that involved "irreversible" changes to
characters that later were reversed anyway.
  I do not think I will ever read anything else by Chalker as I
found River much too shallow (random put) and "done before" in plot.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 21:38:26 GMT
From: mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende)
Subject: Re: Chalker  (was "Information (details and Magic))

byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) writes:
>mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) writes:
>>9.  All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or
>>    any of the "laws of nature".  Look at well world, lord of the
>>    diamonds, flux, ...
>
>I'm not so sure about this one. On Well World the Well computer
>monkeyed with the Markovian space-time equations to get the funky
>physics. All the hexes followed the "laws of nature" defined by the
>programmer who had the math to transcend the default laws.

  Please note that I "quoted" laws of nature".  I did not make
myself clear, and for this I am sorry. What I meant about not
following "laws of nature" was that the local laws of nature were
modified from, or just plain different from those on earth.  I have
never read one of his books (and I have only missed a few of the
recient ones (school takes up far too much time :-) )) where the
characters are on a "Normal" earthlike planet (universe) that did
not have some quirk or another.

ARPA: mende@rutgers.edu
BITNET: mende@zodiac.bitnet
UUCP: rutgers!mende

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 04:10:44 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Re: Magical Shop stories

About six to twelve months ago there was a good story in Isaac
Asimov's SF Magazine that was something like a magic shop story.
Was called "Wu's Lost and Found Emporium" or some such.  It
certainly featured a shop full of strange things that appeared out
of nowhere.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 21:49:27 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Information (details and Magic)

Poul Anderson pointed out the difficulties inherent in doing
transmutation without knowing basic atomic theory in _Operation:
Chaos_.  Even if you get all the energy right, you might end up with
an unstable isotope.

I worked it out once.  Transmuting Lead into Gold will generally
release enough energy to blow the alchemist and his lab and a good
portion of the block into nice greasy fragments.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Mar 87 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #120
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 87 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #120
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:

                Books - Gibson (7 msgs) & Heinlein &
                        Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny & 
                        Upcoming Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 87 13:10:30 EST
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: NEUROMANCER and Cyberpunk

Well, it seems to me that the acerbic disputes about cyberpunk (and,
auugh, cyberprep, cybersmurf...) have been blown way out of
proportion. I very much liked NEUROMANCER, and so, it seemed, did
the majority of the SFWA. But a new genre? Really. It was a mix of
Chandleresque prose with the standard ugly corporate near-future
combined with some flashy throwaway ideas and a treatment of a
computer-generated "space" NOT AT ALL LIKE TRON, but like Vernor
Vinge's TRUE NAMES.

Personally, I think TRUE NAMES was a fairly amateurish piece of work
compared to NEUROMANCER, but that's just opinion. I also think
Gibson is a more masterful writer, in terms of pure technique than
most of the others in the "cyberpunk" movement which unfortunately
formed after NEUROMANCER'S success.

See Norman Spinrad's STAYING ALIVE (now a book by Donner) for a
discussion of "genrefication" and why it is bad. I've read a few
interviews with Gibson, and as far as I can tell, he had no
intention of creating a "movement" or a Cyberpunk manifesto, but
instead was willing to go along with the trend, once some of those
other more obscure writers you can find in MIRRORSHADES decided that
they had something going.

Gibson's other works have been rather good, I think. The short
stories collected in BURNING CHROME were of high quality (except for
the collaborations), and COUNT ZERO was reasonably good, though of
admittedly lower quality than NEUROMANCER. But other writers in the
"subgenre" have not really contributed very much. I liked the book
by Walter Jon Williams, (an obvious ripoff work, cashing in on the
trend) even though it had nothing really to say, but the various
short stories by the other MIRRORSHADES writers and the works of K.
W. Jeter have just left me flat. Left to itself, I'd say Cyberpunk
would just softly and silently vanish away, but the continuing
hubbub in the SF community (not to mention the bizarre idea of an
"opposing" subgenre of "humanistic" SF), may prolong the life of the
thing.

If we could just get away from the whole idea of genre fiction (not
to mention subgenres), I think we'd all be better off.

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu
{harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!brothers

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 21:25:56 GMT
From: bcsaic!randy@rutgers.edu (Randy Groves)
Subject: Re: Gibson and Delany

J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>In the case of NEUROMANCER, I think it might be a little closer to
>what's going on to say that there's none of the sentimentality or
>nostalgia that a lot of people seem to find so comforting in things
>like Star Trek.  And while I'm at it, in what sense can Delany's
>work be described as all style and no substance?

I've noted with some dismay the comments about lack of
characterization - to me Neuromancer was one of the most involving
novels that I have read in some time.  I was totally immersed and
came up with my reality somewhat askew.  Likewise Dhalgren.  There
are images and feelings from both books that are still immediate -
and I last read Dhalgren 10 years ago, at least.

Time be time ...

randy groves
Boeing Advanced Technology Center
USNail: Boeing Computer Services
        PO Box 24346 M/S 7L-44
        Seattle, WA   98124
UUCP:   ..!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy
CSNET:  randy@boeing.com
VOICE:  (206)865-3424

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 02:31:04 GMT
From: well!brianop@rutgers.edu (Brian McBee)
Subject: Gibson

I just finished Gibson's Neuromancer and was very impressed. A
wonderful first novel. Where can I find more of his work? Has he
published any shorter fiction?  Write to me at well!brianop, I don't
know the path. Thanx.

well!brianop

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 02:28:28 GMT
From: starfire!brust@rutgers.edu (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: NEUROMANCER and Cyberpunk



Just to set the record straight, the novel (I can't recall the name
at the moment) that is reminiscent of NEUROMANCER was completed well
before Gibson's book hit the stands.  Just thought you should know.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 21:39:23 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: NEUROMANCER and Cyberpunk

brust@starfire.UUCP (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) writes:
>Just to set the record straight, the novel (I can't recall the name
>at the moment) that is reminiscent of NEUROMANCER was completed
>well before Gibson's book hit the stands.  Just thought you should
>know.

  I don't know if this is the book you are talking about, but I
remember hearing that the novel _Hardwired_ was written before
_Neuromancer_ but published after it. I don't know the author of
_Hardwired_, but it is supposed to be very similar to _Neuromancer_.
This may be the book you are remembering.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 21:45:24 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Gibson

>I just finished Gibson's Neuromancer and was very impressed. A
>wonderful first novel. Where can I find more of his work? Has he
>published any shorter fiction?  Write to me at well!brianop, I
>don't know the path. Thanx.

  A collection of all of Gibson's short fiction (20) stories has
just been published, called _Burning_Chrome_. I believe he also has
one other novel besides _Neuromancer_, but I don't know what it is.
  And that's *all*. He's a very new writer. I thought _Neuromancer_
was awesome (almost as awesome as A.A.Attanasio's _Radix_ - you
should read it: Bantam-Spectra).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 18:07:47 GMT
From: utai!morenz@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk

>My roommate asks:
>       How would you define Cyberpunk?

If you have read Neuromancer, I think the kids he describes there (I
forget off hand what he calls them) with the cybernetic plug-ins to
their brains, and a cunning nasty streak the bandwidth of which I
wouldn't want to calculate.. They are excellent candidates for the
term Cyberpunks.  Tell your roommate to read the book, not only for
the definition he is looking for but a good story in general.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP
gpu.utcs.toronto.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 16:58:47 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Cat cover and plot

Near the end of Heinlein's "Cat who Walks Through Walls" we learn,
in passing, that the protagonist is black.  The cover portrays him
as being quite caucasian.  Was this necessary?

(minor spoilers)

I think I've decided that the book was deliberately written as a
demonstration that people will buy Heinlein's books no matter how
bad they are.  Note that in the opening scene the narrator rates
both the book's opening and the 'obvious' solution to the mystery as
trash that no editor would accept.  Note that the only reason ever
given for not accepting one of the narrator's suggestions for
rescuing Mike safely is actorial whim.  And note that though the
ability has been explicitly demonstrated to spend ten years planning
an operation and then home in on the appropriate split second, the
rescue party is left to bleed for a long time.  Not just trash, but
clearly deliberate trash.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 18:56:07 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother

kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes:
> I feel fairly confident in stating that Catherine was not in any
> way connected with the other characters of the novel. Although
> with the bizarre folds in time, there's always the possibility
> that Catherine is Saint Katherine, the patron of the Order of
> Seekers of Truth and Penitence.

Realize that this is coming from someone who's read the first 2
books only and so may be unfamiliar with later developments.

In the Christian Church, Saint Catherine of Alexandria was tortured
to death (as were many saints, admittedly) on the wheel.  I don't
know what she's supposed to be the Patron Saint of, but it wouldn't
be surprising if she were so honored by the Torturers.

Side notes: a Catherine('s) Wheel is also an acrobatic cartwheel and
a type of fireworks.  Some British pubs are named "The Cat and
Wheel" after a corruption of "Catherine's Wheel".  The point here is
that this woman and her torture device are linked in popular
culture, making her an even more likely candidate as Patron Saint of
Torturers.  (*And no flames about bad taste!  Since when has the
Church cared about bad taste? :-) *)

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 21:18:27 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Re: Book of the New Sun -- Severian's mother

> Is there anyone else out there willing, as I am, to make the claim
> that this four-volume novel is the crowning achievement of
> S(peculative)F(iction)?  I read these as they came out, and
> thought highly of them; but when I re-read them in one sitting
> earlier in the year, I (figuratively) saw God.

YES! YES! The Book of the New Sun is one of the best books I ever
read.  I hold this up to anybody else's favorite literature.  I
generally feel this way about most of Wolfe's work (ever read
Peace?), but this is his best.  This book has so much depth and
texture that you could read it dozens of times and still be
surprised.

How could anybody keep everything so knit together over four volumes
and several years of writing them?  Everything ties in with
everything else.  I love the way he gives an explanation of parts of
his world the way science fiction writers do, but then gives
different and contradictory explanations later.  Nothing neat and
tidy, more like life.  I love the historical feel to his society far
in our future.  The terminology sounds roman, the journey sounds
like a Midaevel pilgrimage, yet when people dig they find layer upon
layer of prior civilizations.  I love his passion for telling
strange little stories (and the translated story of the Ascian is a
marvel).  Where else in SF have you seen an honest-to-God
hagiography?  I love his jokes, like the Frankenstein turnabout.  Or
Severian's guild: the Seekers for Truth and Penitence, commonly
known as the Torturers.  But mostly I just like the writing.  It
takes a master to bring a reader to the logical acceptance of
Volodius' alzebo feast or to bring the reader to appreciate that
Severian is an excellent carnifex, one who is part of a rich
tradition and who honestly plies his craft.  I can't recommend it
more highly.  Besides, the cover of the first book is sure fire to
get you a seat by yourself on a crowded Muni bus.

My question back is did anybody else feel a jar in Severian's
attitude about women?  He has a certain detachment for people and
for his own body--I suppose necessary in his line of work, or for
somebody en route to "higher things".  I can also understand that
women were not part of his upbringing.  Still, he seems too casual
about Dorcas and her feelings.  Why is he so hung up on Agila (sp?)
considering her feelings back?  He screws around but his heart does
not seem to be in it.  I have not quite figured out what Wolfe was
doing with this part of Severian's character.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 01:36:34 EST
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Zelazny (stupidity, wild cards, LoL, CoLaD)

Well, OK, Merlin was stupid, but in the heat of the moment, anyone
could misremember. Merlin has not really had much to do in the last
umpty-ump years, and is relatievly inexperienced, despite his power.
If I were he, and with the luxury of having a lot of time to think
about things, I'd have acted differently, too.

However, if it turns out to be important that Merlin NOT figure out
that Jurt was attacking, then, I agree, I'll be annoyed. If he
figures it out before it matters, then it's ok, though.

Despite my continual assertion that Zelazny is God, I do agree that
the series is getting a little comic-bookish now. (EE Smith would
have said: It has scope). But as long as Zelazny doesn't do anything
utterly outrageous, I won't complain too loudly.

Speaking of comic-bookish, anyone seen Zelazny's stories in Wild
Cards?  Now THAT is throwaway writing (but still fun, nevertheless).

I would say one important difference between LoL and CoLaD is that
LoL is sometimes written with a "mythic" tone whereas CoLaD is
completely in that tone. I.e., the LoL characters are sometimes
human, sometimes they raise attributes, whereas the CoLaD characters
are always gods.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 06:25:40 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Spring/summer titles from Donning/Starblaze

More press releases with upcoming books, this time the graphic novel
(and other) lines of Donning Starblaze.  Hope you find this useful.
enjoy!

April

Mage:  The Hero Discovered, Vol. 1 by Matt Wagner.
   Color Graphic Novel, 144 8.5x11 pages.
   Compilation of the first five issues of the Comico series.
   [ed note:  originally a March title, it seems to have slipped
   again, it was more originally a fall title last year]

A Distant Soil #1: Immigrant Song by Colleen Doran.
   Color Graphic Novel, 72 pages 8.5x11.
   Revised, rewritten, redrawn.

Gate of Ivrel #1: claiming rights adapted and illustrated by Jane
   Fancher
   Color Graphic Novel, 72 pages 8.5x11.
   Adaptation of C.J. Cherryh's novel.

Takeoff, too! by Randall Garrett.
   310 pages trade paperback.
   Parodies and pastiches from the author of the Lord Darcy Series.
   [ed note: also long delayed, and long awaited. Takeoff! is
   wonderful, and now back in print. get them both!]

May

Duncan & Mallory #2: The Bar None Ranch by Robert Asprin and Mel.
   White.
   Color Graphic Novel, 64 pages, 8.5x11
   The pair are the proud owners of a tarantula ranch.
   [ed note:  #1 was okay, but not up to Myth Adventures style
   humor or strangeness]

Thorgal #2: The Archers by Rosinski & Van Hamme
   Color Graphic Novel, 8.5x11 48 pages

Aria #2: The Knights of Aquarius by M. Weyland
   Color Graphic Novel, 8.5x11 48 pages

Thieves' World (TM) Graphics 5 adapted by Robert Asprin & Lynn Abbey
   B&W Graphic Novel, 8.5x11, 64 pages
   [ed note: art by Tim Sale?  It doesn't say, but he was the
   artist in previous volumes]

[editorial notes: Starblaze is not known for the rigourousness of
their schedules.  Mage has been postponed twice, the first time a
major delay because the original separations simply didn't work.
The second, one month delay seems to be administrative.  Takeoff,
Too! was originally supposed to be out last fall as well.  Other
titles might slip without notice]

June

Myth-Nomers and Im-Pervections by Robert Asprin, Illustrated by
   Phil Foglio
        The eighth Myth Adventures book.
        [ed note:  recent books have had few Foglio illos. sigh]

[ed note: the press release did not print the name of this book.
Seriously]
   by Phil Foglio
   Color Graphic Novel, 8.5x11, 72 pages
   ISBN 0-89865-495-9
   [ed note: to quote from the PR:] An exciting and hilarious blend
   of adventure, comedy, and the Foglio sense of pathos.  Cartoons
   haven't been this fun since Chuck Jones.  [ed note: I wish they'd
   told me what the name was. I'll buy Foglio sight unseen...]

July

Robotech (TM) art 2 by Kay Reynolds.
   Illustrated by Colleen Doran, Trina Robbins, Dave Garcia, Lela
   Dowling, Lee Moyer, Phil Foglio, Doug rice, Jane Fancher, Rick
   Taylor, and more.
   Trade Paperback, 120 pages color
   Original art and animation cels from Robotech.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Mar 87 1058-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #121
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 87 1058-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #121
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 Mar 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Terminology (8 msgs) &
                               Report on Space & Star Tours &
                               Back Covers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 01:31:49 GMT
From: styx!mcb@rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Trekkie v.s. Trekker

I personally am a member of neither category, but I would submit
that in the only meaningful analysis, Messrs. Roddenberry, Shatner,
Nimoy, etc.  are trekkERS, and Star Trek fans are therefore
necessarily trekkEES.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.arpa
UUCP: lll-lcc!styx!mcb
      lll-crg!styx!mcb
      ihnp4!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 08:09:02 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Clique?

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>[mundanes] start to work out what these ridiculous terms mean they
>end up getting changed, fans -> fen , trekky -> trekker ,
>conference -> con person of other literary taste -> mundane.

fans/fen isn't a religious issue, it's just a quirky variant.  "Con"
was never short for "conference", it comes from "convention".  I
don't think "conference" means anything especially different or
"bad" to me, but I've never heard of a "science fiction conference"
(except on fidonet, where I coordinate one :-) and don't know what
one would be like.  Mundane doesn't mean person of other literary
taste.  If you want to be insulting to us, try saying that mundane
means person of non-fannish lifestyle.  The "other literary taste"
definition is just too far off, we won't react properly.

>We are adults aren't we if they start to insult us or look upon
>science fiction with disdain why do we have to circle the wagons
>and start to snipe back at them with our stupid, cliquey jargon. We
>are arguing about books

You said it yourself; if they start to insult us, circling the
wagons is a very natural (and necessary) reaction.  However, the
jargon isn't related to that, the jargon is just an aid to
communication among ourselves.  Plus some of it is for humor.  I
find both these characteristics in computer jargon, too, despite all
the people who claim we invented THAT to prevent them from
understanding us also.

> Just out of interest. If somebody came up to you and asked you why
>you read sci-fi how would you respond.

That's easy; I tell them I DON'T read sci-fi.

>BTW I am not slagging off any of the writers above, this article
>just seemed the most representative of an attitude which I find a
>little disconcerting.

While I probably hold attitudes you'd find a little disconcerting, I
really thought that my previous article was just doing a fairly
straight explanation of the terms that had been asked about.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 08:58:49 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: "trufen"/"serfen"/etc.

From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
>     The sort of egotism that creates the subject terminology is
>the primary thing that is wrong with many SF cons AND leads to the
>public perception of SF people as a collection of glassy-eyed
>geeks.

This seems to be a matter of opinion (it's hard to present hard
evidence about why the general public believes x), but I fail to see
that fanspeak has anything to do with egotism.  It's more computer
jargon -- it lets us communicate precisely and concisely, with some
humor thrown in when it doesn't get in the way.  Nor do I think that
fanspeak has ever been exhibited to enough of the general public to
allow them to use it to form their opinions of us.

>     If you detest the concept of media fen, then you are just as
>guilty of all the prejudice, slander, and ignorance of many of the
>general public show toward SF fans.

Depends who's right :-) Most SF fans who dislike "media fen" are
basing their opinions on literally hundreds of people they have
observed personally (plus slanderous remarks, rumors, and other
input).  Is that prejudice, or is that dislike based on information?
In contrast, the vast majority of people who sneer at SF have never
met a fan (certainly not a "trufannish" convention-going fan), and
DAMN few of them have ever seen us in our natural habitat (i.e. at a
convention)

>     Instead of treating Trekkies as a lower form of life, try,
>GENTLY, to expose them to other forms of fandom.  "Gee, if you like
>STAR TREK try reading *** -- I think you'll like it."  Don't
>consider him/her/it a raging idiot because he/she/it can't recite
>the title of every book Asimov has ever written...

What an original, brilliant, idea :-) I don't consider trekkers or
even trekkies to be lower forms of life.  However, your suggestion
doesn't work very well if three times as many of them as of us show
up.  To my knowledge this hasn't hapenned to any convention yet; but
it's what we're all afraid of.  Deep down inside we know that the
media fen outnumber us 10 to 1 or some such.  As to reciting book
titles -- come on.  So there's a flaming asshole every now and then,
that doesn't make it the norm of behavior.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 05:47:13 GMT
From: utah-gr!donn@rutgers.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: SF terminology/classifications

scirtp!george has obviously read a different book than the one I
read if he can't find any science fiction in Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF
THE NEW SUN.  The only straight fantasy in the novel is told by the
characters in their own stories; everything else has some degree of
science- fictional rationalization.  Thus the novel contains
spaceships, robots, death rays, FTL drives, aliens, time travel and
other familiar trappings of science fiction, in different guises.
The protagonist of the novel knows nothing about the technologies
involved in the creation of most of the artifacts he encounters, and
it's up to the reader to work out these puzzles.  (Of course
Severian is quite familiar with one particular science -- the
science of torture, about which I learned quite a bit from reading
the novel.)  These puzzles are part of the reason I thought the
novel was so fun to read.

I have no reservations about classifying THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN as
science fiction.  I don't really care how a publisher labels their
output -- a publisher's concern is to sell books, not to study them.
Recently I've read several books which were really science fiction
or fantasy but weren't marketed as such by the publisher; I've been
thinking of writing a review of these to show sf readers what they
might be missing if they pay too much attention to publishers'
labels.

I only notice the label when the product is named 'UBIK!',

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 05:22:59 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Terminolgy
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

Kevin Maroney writes:
>I think it's worth pointing out that the mundane world at large
>uses the term "sci-fi" to denote exactly the same qualitative
>distinction that we fen use; i.e., when a mundane (especially a
>literary mundane) uses the phrase "sci-fi", he means "bad science
>fiction".  For most mundanes, the terms "science fiction" and "bad
>science fiction" are completely synonymous.

What a broad, and insulting, generalization!  I have many non-fan
acquaintances who are familiar with my own fannish proclivities.
They use the term 'sci-fi' to identify a category of fiction, with
no qualitative judgment or implication of either the fiction or the
people who read it.  Can you say as much when you call these people
'mundanes'?

------------------------------

Date: Thu 26 Mar 87 15:03:50-PST
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SPAR-20.ARPA>
Subject: Terminology

As it says on my MITSFS tshirt: "We're not fans, we just read the
stuff!"

I don't think that the word fan, although derived from "fanatic",
has that connotation anymore.  Think of "sports fan".  You don't
necessarily conjure up an image of someone who watches every
football game on television, stands in line for hours to get tickets
to all the home games, etc.  You just think of your uncle who
watches Monday night football, occasionally participates in the
football pool, and cares about the superbowl and world series.
That's not a fanatic, that's just someone who has an interest in
sports and follows the appropriate games.  So with science fiction
fan.  I read lots of SF, and go to about one convention a year.  But
I'm not devoted to the subject; I wouldn't miss my sister's wedding
because there was an obscure little local con that weekend.
However, I do consider myself a fan, and think that there's little
room to doubt that I'm a fan.  I think that anyone who reads
SF-LOVERS is of necessity a fan; they show the requisite amount of
interest in the subject.  They needn't be a fanatic, and I don't
think there's anything (anymore) in the word "fan" that implies they
are.

Re: star trek groupies; my first con was a star trek con, and let me
tell you, a lot of those people are Groupies.  But that's OK, I was
15 at the time, and somewhat of a groupie myself.  I've since toned
down, and now, yeah, I enjoy a round of star trek trivia
occasionally, but it's been years since I've actually watched any of
the TV series, and I only saw each of the movies once.  Not terribly
fanatical, nor groupie.

Judy Anderson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 87 20:30:14 PST
From: hhaller@pnet01.CTS.COM (Harry Haller)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #104

The whole issue of 'sf' or 'sci-fi' seems to silly to become really
worked up over. The people who worry most about such things will
have the least impact upon literature, sf or other, by the simple
fact of their inability to focus on what is important. As to the
company sf keeps...well. I always felt that sf was too modest in its
literary claims. The Bible or the saga of Gilgamesh are, to me,
unquestionably works of sf, as is the Book of Mormon (which was
required reading prior to submitting scripts for BattleStar
Galactica, by the way). One of my favorite (unacknowledged) works of
sf won the Nobel Prize for Hermann Hesse: The Glass Bead Game. Set
in the 25th century and postulating a form of recreation that steals
much of the novel's show, I am to my knowledge the only person who
ever seriously referred to it as sf.

As to 'sci-fi' being pejorative, well, maybe. But on meeting Mr
Ackerman at LA ConII, and finding him such a charming and warm
person, well, I can't really find it within me to take offense. The
term reminds me of him: the grand old man of unspoiled teen fandom.
In closing, again about the words 'sf' vs 'sci-fi', I cite our
roots, the Null A Books, which are one of the great groundbreaking
works of our genre:
        THE WORD IS NOT THE THING.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 13:23 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Terminology

I have stated this before, and will do so again, albeit more
succinctly:

A 'Trekkie' or a 'Trekker' is defined as someone who is so wrapped
up in a 20 year old TV series that was at best, above average, that
they actually care about the terminology that is used to describe
the fans.  In common parlance, that's a 'fanatic', or 'fan' for
short.  Lord have mercy on us if we are reduced to arguing
semantics.

My favorite term for what is known variously as SF, Science Fiction,
Science Fantasy or whatever is the Italian term 'Fantascienza' which
sums it up pretty well.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 01:29:00 GMT
From: ruffwork@orstcs.cs.ORST.EDU
Subject: National Commission on Space Report

If you have not yet seen the new report from the National Commission
on Space it is now available from Bantam Books.  It is called
 "Pioneering the Space Frontier: An Exciting Vision of Our Next
 Fifty Years in Space", and is dedicated to the crew of the 51-L.

I have just started a detailed read, but in flipping through the
pages I see what looks like a bold set of goals for a civilian space
program (if it will only sell...sigh).  The book is also very
flashy, with many colour plates in it.  Very worth while !!!

ritchey ruff
ruffwork%oregon-state@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 13:32:46 PST
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Star Tours

I just went to Disneyland this weekend and I wanted to review their
newest addition, a ride named Star Tours.  This new ride was created
by a team from Disney and Lucasfilms and is set in a Star Wars motif
(thus it's review here).

For those of you familiar with Disneyland in California, Star Tours
has replaced Monsanto's "Journey Through Inner Space" at the
entrance to Tomorrowland.  It is definitely a change for the better.
The line, however, was the most extraordinary thing about the
attraction since it stretched all the way down Main Street and took
about two hours to traverse.

The ride itself consists of a spacecraft simulator, a cute robot
pilot, and a movie of the view out the front of the ship.  There are
actually four ships with room for about 35-40 people each, so they
move people through pretty quickly. The flight takes about 12
minutes and is very rough.  The pilot is, of course, on his first
flight and makes just about every mistake possible.  He is supposed
to fly you to Endor, the forest moon, for a tour of the Ewok's home.
Well, he misses and ends up in a comet for some serious ice dodging.
Once he finally ends up at Endor, he gets caught in a Star Destroyer
tractor beam.  Luckily, he gets rescued by some rebel x-wings and
joins in on their attack of the Death Star (another one!?!).  After
that he takes you back.  We never did get to see Endor.

All in all, the ride is a gas!  I loved it.  The simulator really
pitches around.  It feels like you are really in a spaceship doing
some incredible maneuvers.  It appeared that they left it a good ten
feet on either side to move in.  The movie is quality Lucasfilms,
but short.  The plot is cornball, but expected from a family
oriented place like Disneyland.

The thing I liked best about the ride is it's potential for growth.
All it would take to completely change the ride is a new movie and
new programming.  Perhaps one day we really will get to see the
forest moon.

Jon
pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 00:31:45 GMT
From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: Back cover writers

> Is there any reason authors don't write their own back covers?
> That way, we could tell what the book's about without reading the
> first chapter.

Yes.  The contracts specify that the publishers have control over
the "packaging" of the book.  That includes artwork and the blurbs
on the back cover and just inside the front.  Publishers don't WANT
an author's summary; they want advertising copy -- short and
puffed-up.  Their reasoning is that the back cover blurb is going to
convince "impulse buyers" to get the book; serious readers will
browse through the first chapter anyway.  Right or wrong, they're
the ones making the rules.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Mar 87 1115-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #122
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 87 1115-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #122
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Story Requests (2 msgs),
                  Films - Dune (2 msgs) & Neuromancer (3 msgs) &
                          Nightflyers (2 msgs),
                  Television - Starman & Ark II (2 msgs) &
                          Blake's 7 & Doctor Who (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 16:50:09 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Story Request

Can someone help me?  I'm looking for a story I once read -- in a
magazine I think.  It concerns a book (story? play?) which nobody
has ever succeeded in reading to the end.  The story contains a
snipet of the play, which seems to be based on "The King in Yellow".

The narrator tries to read the book and doesn't finish it.  He tells
his host that he *would* have finished it if the lights hadn't kept
flickering.  The host tells him that, due to the special wiring in
his house, the lights *couldn't* have been flickering.

Can someone point me to the story?

advThanksance

P.S.  I'm curious about the origin of the names used in the Darkover
books.  Is Chalmers --> Lovecraft --> Bradley the whole story?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 13:53:52 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Story request

A friend asked if anyone could help finding this story.  Plot: An
employee of a 'proctor-gamble' type company is fired.  He is angry,
so he sky-writes nasty things about the company in the sky using
some sort of foamed substance that is very light, but practically
indestructible.  These huge foam letters drift down to the town and
cause all sorts of havoc, because you can't get rid of them.  The
won't burn, won't dissolve, nothing.  The man eventually starts his
own company that sells a rather mediocre cleanser that has one
special property - it dissolves these foam things.  Instant market.

This sounds really strange.  Anyone know what it is?  Oh, he said he
read it in the early sixties.

Brett Slocum
ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 87 11:35 PST
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: Dune the loooong movie

The movie DUNE will be released with an extended show length.  The
new release (for home consumption) will be extended out to around
400 minutes from the movie release length of 140 minutes.  Seems the
movie version had whole storylines removed from it.  Gee, and I
didn't even notice.  I don't remember who was doing this, the
producer, original author, light man or makeup artist.

Information gleemed from the recent issue of Stereo Review

lance
lance@logicon.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 04:10:10 GMT
From: nathan@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Dune the loooong movie

lance@LOGICON.ARPA writes:
>The movie DUNE will be released with an extended show length.  The
>new release (for home consumption) will be extended out to around
>400 minutes from the movie release length of 140 minutes.  Seems
>the movie version had whole storylines removed from it.  Gee, and I
>didn't even

I saw the home video release of Dune a few months ago (from a local
rental shop), and this seemed to be the same as the original movie.
Assuming what's reported above is true, don't go out and buy Dune
just yet...or you'll get the same old version you saw in the
theaters.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 27 Mar 87 06:40:20-CST
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: _Neuromancer_ movie

A friend claims he saw a pre-pre-release commercial for the movie
version of William Gibson's book _Neuromancer_. Has anyone else seen
this, or am I just getting my leg pulled? Also, I thought Gibson had
sold the rights to his short story "Burning Chrome," not those of
the novel.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 01:40:31 GMT
From: styx!mcb@rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ movie



CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
> A friend claims he saw a pre-pre-release commercial for the movie
> version of William Gibson's book _Neuromancer_. Has anyone else
> seen this, or am I just getting my leg pulled? Also, I thought
> Gibson had sold the rights to his short story "Burning Chrome,"
> not those of the novel.

I have seen (parts of) the commercial. I didn't get the whole thing
since I was not paying attention at the outset. All I remember of it
is a green grid superimposed over a black screen and a stream of
DTMF (TouchTone) sounds that got faster and faster. I looked up
expecting to see the AT&T DeathStar logo, but instead was simply the
word

                            NEUROMANCER

centered on the screen. There might have been some cruft at the
bottom, like "Coming Soon" or the customary movie-poster type
credits, too small to be read, by me at least. It went by really
quickly and could not have been more than a 15-second spot.

The funny thing is that I'm sure I saw no mention of either the sale
of movie rights or the start of production for NEUROMANCER in LOCUS
which surely would have mentioned either or both.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.arpa
UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!styx!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 20:25:41 GMT
From: sequent!davest@rutgers.edu (Dave Stewart)
Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ movie

   I heard an announcement on the news that Timothy Leary (the 60's
drug guru) is working on a video game based on Neuromancer, that
will use the music of some rock group.

David C. Stewart
Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
tektronix!sequent!davest
davest%sequent.UUCP@tektronix.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 87 16:36:13 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Nightflyers -- George R. R. Martin

kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith) writes:
> I just recently bought an anthalogy of stories by George R.  R.
> Martin called Nightflyers.  (after having waited for the paperback
> because the thing contains only 2 stories not in his earlier
> collections, or other anthologies) The cover says "Soon to be a
> Major Motion Picture".  I assume they are refering to the title
> story "Nightflyers".  Does anyone know anything about this?

There was a presentation at the Atlanta Worldcon.  An apparently
low-budget company called Vista had a presentation on the
NIGHTFLYERS film.  The flyer they gave out said that it will be
coming out early in 1987, but I suspect they will wait for a summer
audience.

The director is Robert Collector and producer is Robert Jaffe.  The
film stars Catherine Mary Stewart, Michael Praed, and John Standing.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 16:57:47 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Nightflyers -- George R. R. Martin

The latest Cinefantastique has a one-page article on the upcoming
_Nightflyers_ film. It appears that G.R.R. is involoved in the
production, so maybe it won't be too bad. Also, it didn't appear to
be particularly "cheep", regardless of its actual monetary budget.

I haven't yet read the story, but I have high hopes. Since _Wild
Cards_ came out, I've become a born-again Martin fan. (If anyone out
there has a copy of _Armageddon Rag_ that they're not using, please
drop me a line.)

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 00:12:02 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: STARMAN

>I think this is a really good show.  It's attempting to show how
>human beings look when seen through the eyes of an alien.  And
>sometimes what we take for granted can seem pretty cruel,
>senseless, and "inhuman".

Yes, that's one of the things wrong with it.  Having an alien
criticize human beings (variation: time traveller, computer, etc...
instead of an alien) is, by now, an extremely old cliche.  (Another
variation: the idealized 20th century humans criticize a society
which is a caricature of non-idealized 20th century humans.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 21:42:19 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

I think I remember Ark II.  An oversized motor home, Robby the Robot
(poor Robbie, to have sunk so low), a talking chimp, the Bell rocket
pack, some sort of electric dune buggy.  I think that's all the high
points.  I don't remember too well the human cast.  The motor home
had tandem rear axles, I think.

david rickel
cae780!weitek!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: FRIDAY 03/27/87 12:25:04 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>
Subject: Re:Post Holocaust Novels

I do remember Ark II.  I remember enjoying it quite a lot, and I
remember my mother commenting that it seemed to have more substance
to it than most of the fluff that usually runs on Saturday morning.
(Ditto Space Academy.)  I have a modest collection of Ark II
material, predominantly Starlog magazines that mention the show, and
a few photos I picked up at a convention.  Does anyone know if there
is a way to get Ark II / Space Academy on videotape??

George Madison
7GMADISO@POMONA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 17:15:26 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: B7 Club listing

For those interested in "Blake's 7" the following information might
be of interest to you:

CLUBS:

SCORPIO, Box 397, Midlothian, IL 60445.  The oldest surviving US
club.  Newsletter (very high quality).  Maintains a close connection
& is approved by Terry Nation.

HORIZON, The Blake's Seven Appreciation Society.  The largest
general B7 club.  Membership includes quarterly newsletter (with
glossy photo covers), color photo and membership card.  Merchandise
includes over 20 fanzines, photo list, scripts, badges, Xmas cards
etc.  Regular London meetings.  SAE (use IRCs (Internationsl Reply
Coupons -- get them at the Post Office) if you don't have British
stamps) Ann Steele, 47 Aylward Road, Merton Park, London SW20 9AJ.

AVON -- THE PAUL DARROW SOCIETY.  For fans of Avon who are also
interested in the continuing career of Paul Darrow.  Approved by
Paul Darrow.  Quarterly newsletter and merchandise.  Both Paul and
his wife Janet are very supportive of this group.  In US and Canada,
contact Mrs Joanne Stone, 7 Little Falls Way, Scotch Plains, NJ
07076.  In England, SAE Mrs Ann Brown, 37A Byfleet Ave, Old BAsing,
Basingstoke, Hampshire RG24 OHR.

VILAWORD.  For Vila/Michael Keating fans -- but also involves other
B7 interests as well.  SAE (IRCs if no British stamps) Miss Yvette
Clarke, 85 Brendon Green, Millbrook, Southampton, Hants, So1 4BE
England.

THE LOST SESKA (B7 Info Service Vila Restal Society We Like Blake So
There Condominum).  An "un-club" -- publishes a letterzine,
addresses of B7 clubs and merchandisers and other fans.  Send to
Linda Terrell, Box 25, Dunedin, FL 34296.

Paul Darrow is confirmed for the STARLOG/Creationcon May 9 - 10 at
the Penta Hotel in NYC.  I'll be there -- and probably on a couple
of panels -- if any netusers would like to say "hi!"

Jean Airey
US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 87 09:21 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Dr. Who
Cc: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

>In The Robots of Death, we see a race of robots corrupted by
>another mad scientist type.  But we also see other members of the
>same robot race, who are police agents out to foil the bad guys.
>The leader good-guy robot is a strong character, but can anyone
>even remembers his name?  I can't.

D84.  A nice, memorable name for a robot.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87  00:31:31 EST
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: The Dalek movies

Robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) writes:
> Do you know the name of the movie which starred Peter Cushing as
> Dr.  Who, and which had him in Earths future fighting the Daleks
> with a future disease?  This was (as I recall) the Dr.s'
> introduction to the Daleks, although he later met them in "Earth
> 21XX" which has previously been discussed.
>
> So, what is the name of this movie, and how does it fit into the Dr.
> Who timeline?

Hmmm... There were two movies made in the mid-60's, with Peter
Cushing as the Doctor. The first was "Doctor Who and the Daleks",
and was based on the first Dalek story (and the second story in the
series), "The Daleks" (makes sense, right?). This story was set on
the planet Skaro, with the Thals fighting the Daleks and then the
Doctor dropping by. I'm not sure about the disease element; there
was plenty of radiation about, though. The second movie was "The
Daleks- Invasion Earth 2150 [?] A.D.", based on the story "The Dalek
Invasion of Earth". This involved the Doctor fighting an army of
Daleks who are planning to blast out the core of the planet, drop in
a drive system, and drive the planet about the galaxy,
ex-ter-min-ating everything they run across. The two stories (the
movies are for all intents and purposes the same as the stories
they're based on) are set well after the creation of the Daleks (of
course!), but before the return of Davros in the latter-day Dalek
stories. That's one of the neat things about Doctor Who: you can run
across a race at many points in its history in non-chronological
order.

Castell@UMass.Bitnet
Chip Olson at UMass-Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 00:09:24 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Doctor Who and the Peascatons

I was in a B. Dalton's Bookstore the other night, scanning the line
of audio cassettes on display when I came across this:

Doctor Who and the Pescatons!

From Newman's Books-on-Cassette line.  It features Tom Baker as the
Doctor and Elisabeth Sladen as his intrepid companion Sarah Jane
Smith (*Sigh*) It also features Bill Mitchell as the voice of Zor
(shades of Robotech :-).

The tape is narrated by Tom Baker and the story was written by
Victor Pemberton. From the back cover:

   A lonely stretch of beach at night, a slithering sound
approaching from the sand dunes nearby, and a roar to chill the
hearts of even the most hardened followers of BBC-TV's longest
running series: "DOCTOR WHO."
   In a spine-tingling adventure which has never been seen on
television, the Doctor and his companion SARAH JANE battle against
the PESCATONS, the most bizzarre and hostile invaders ever to emerge
from the outer Universe.  The alien creatures are on the rampage
across the city of London, annihilating everything--and everyone--
in their path.
   In a frightening race against time, Dr. Who enters into battle
with the mighty ZOR, ruler of the Pescatons.  Can the Doctor stop
the destruction of civilization on Earth?

Total playing time:  45 minutes.  (about 2 episodes.)
Dolbyised.  I haven't heard it yet but I will tonite.  The address
for Newman Communications Corporation is Alburquerque, NM 87107.
(They also advertise for "Journey to the Centre of the Earth" and
"The Strange Case of Doctor Jeckyll and Mr.  Hyde" also narrated by
Tom Baker!)

Are there any other Doctor Who audio tapes available?  Especially
with ELisabeth Sladen?

Cheers,
Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 87 15:18 EST
From: TMPLee@DOCKMASTER.ARPA
Subject: Dr. Who season 23?

Does anyone know if any PBS stations have been able to get season 23
("The Trial of a Time Lord?)  and have scheduled it?  Ours just
posted their new schedule and instead of following 22 with 23 they
went back to the beginning (Hartnell.)

Please reply directly, since I don't read this list regularly.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Mar 87 2031-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 87 2031-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Book Review (3 msgs),
                   Films - Star Trek V News,
                   Television - New TV Shows & Doctor Who,
                   Miscellaneous - Whither Boskone?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 17:21:06 GMT
From: clemens!mark@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Subject: Book Review

                    The Adventures of Sam Toyer
                          by Isaac Asimov

   Yes, good ol' doc Asimov has come out with another novel.  This
one is aimed at kids mostly and definitely reads like one of the kid
series like Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys or something like that.

   Anyway, the story is basically about Sam Toyer (as if you
couldn't guess) who is a cadet in the Space Marines.  There are
obvious references to other adventures which I assume we will see if
this turkey sells but in this story, he is on leave from the Marines
and meets up with his girlfriend Becky.  The two of them decide to go
exploring an abandoned dilithium mine on an asteroid.

  They get lost inside the mine and strange things start to happen.
As the story progresses we get told that they are being pursued by
an old miner named Ojo who refused to leave when the empire
abandoned the mine.  Apparently, for some reason, Ojo and Sam are
old enemies and Ojo is out to kill Sam and Becky.

  As I said earlier, this one is a turkey.  I never really liked
Asimov's writing anyway and his juveniles are just plain badly
written and silly.  I would give this one a -4 on the -4 to +4
scale.

The one problem is, as I was reading this book, the story seemed
vaguely familiar as if I had read it once before.  Could this book
possibly be a reprint of some kind?  I checked the copyright page
and there was no indication of an earlier printing.  Any ideas??

Mark R. Clemens
Mississippi State

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 16:26:37 EST
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Book Review

clemens!mark@rutgers.rutgers.edu writes:
>                        The Adventures of Sam Toyer
>                              by Isaac Asimov
[plot synopsis deleted]
>The one problem is, as I was reading this book, the story seemed
>vaguely familiar as if I had read it once before.  Could this book
>possibly be a reprint of some kind?  I checked the copyright page
>and there was no indication of an earlier printing.  Any ideas??

Sounds like it could be an old Lucky Starr story that he dredged up
out of an old file and polished off.  I guess when you
reach your peak as Asimov did several years ago, ya gotta do
something to get a buck...

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 87 16:36:13 GMT
From: ecl!leeper@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Book Review

clemens!mark@rutgers.rutgers.edu writes:
>The one problem is, as I was reading this book, the story seemed
>vaguely familiar as if I had read it once before.  Could this book
>possibly be a reprint of some kind?  I checked the copyright page
>and there was no indication of an earlier printing.  Any ideas??

   It sounds somewhat familiar to me too although I can't place it.
I have the impression that it was written under a pseudonym though...

Evelyn Leeper
...ihnp4!ecl!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 87 09:02 PST
From: Wall.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: STV News

William Shatner, in a recent interview for Playgirl magazine,
revealed much, including the plot of STV, to be released for
Christmas '88.

"I pitched this story idea for STIV," says Shatner, who will not
only produce, direct and star in STV, but will co-write the
screen-play with Nimoy as well, "they were all set on this Search
thing.  But, when plans came for STV, Paramount decided they much
rather go with my story idea than to shoot the movie without a
Captain Kirk."

In STV, the Enterprise will be captured by The Providers.  For
those of you who don't remember them from the TV series, they were
the beings thought to be responsible for spreading various humanoid
lifeforms around the galaxy.  They also built the asteroid deflector
that was the basis for the episode, "The Paradise Syndrome", in
which Kirk gets amnesia and marries a local native.

The Providers take the entire crew off the Enterprise in one massive
teleportation beam and destroy the ship.  The crew is set down on a
desert planet called Estol and turned over to the local ruler,
Fareaux as slaves.  The crew is given the task to rebuild a major
city that has been destroyed by war.  Kirk, Spock and McCoy manage
to escape from slavery and into the desert where Spock's desert
survival skills are necessary to keep them alive.

While in the desert, they come to a large mountain which they
explore in the hopes of finding shelter from a coming storm.
Instead, behind some overgrowth, they find one of the relay stations
of The Providers and attempt to learn the language and the machines
sufficiently to communicate with them.  Spock makes several mistakes
including some done strictly for laughs and presses the wrong buttons
(he's still not completely healed and is still taking "guesses")
causing the machinery to explode.

In the explosion, Kirk is seriously burned on the face and throat
and is unable to speak for the rest of the movie until McCoy gets
him back to a Starfleet Sickbay.  [Shatner claims that Deforrest
insisted: "4 movies with nothing but straight lines was enough"].
With Kirk unable to speak, Spock forms a Vulcan mind-meld with him
so they may communicate telepathically.

The explosion does not go unnoticed however, and through the burning
shrubs, they hear the voice of one of the Providers.  This
particularly Provider is sympathetic towards them and offers
assistance to them and transportation back to the Federation but
only if Fareaux agrees to let the crew go free.

The three of them go to Fareaux, pretending to be messengers of the
Providers and asking him to release the crew.  He doesn't believe
them and demands proof.  Spock uses his knowledge and the chemicals
in McCoy's medkit to create a couple of minor "miracles" as proof.
Fareaux still doesn't believe them and orders them to prison and the
three once more must escape to the desert.

Meanwhile, the other familiar crew members have problems of their
own.  Scotty keeps getting beaten for speaking out about the faulty
engineering of the buildings; Uhura has been taken to Fareaux's
harem where she has been chosen to be his next bride; Sulu and
Chekov are being tortured in Fareaux's prisons for daring to strike
one of the foremen.

Meanwhile, Kirk, Spock and McCoy sneak a message to one of the
crewman to relay a message to the palace that unless Fareaux
releases the crew, he will be visited by plagues of wild animals.
Spock and McCoy have figured out how to use the chemicals they have
with them to attract alien beasts and insects and lure them wherever
the want.  When Fareaux still refuses, they lure beasts and insects
into the palace and the fields causing massive problems.

The creatures eat most of the crops and disrupt the reconstruction
of the city.  They also bring with them many diseases that Fareaux's
people have no defense for (but the Starfleet crew do, of course).
With many of Fareaux's people dying of disease and starvation, he
finally relents and agrees to let the Federation crew go free.

The crew gets a transport ship from the Provider who agreed to help
them and they leave the planet.  However, before they get very far,
Fareaux realizes that he has been tricked and contacts the rest of
the Providers who give him and his army, war ships to track down the
crew.

The last few scenes of the movie are your typical space battle
scenes.  Suffice it to say that the Federation wins again and the
crew head back to Starfleet Headquarters where Kirk is severely
reprimanded and is demoted again to the rank of Commander, and Spock
is made Captain of the new Enterprise, NCC1701-B.

Shatner said that one of the highlights of the film would be a
special effect of a faked "Angel of Death" striking down the
first-born children of the natives but the special effects team of
Dykstra and Trumbel haven't come up with a way of doing it.
Suggestions have been made to look at the collected works of Cecil
B. DeMille or Irwin Allen.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87 11:04:18 PST
From: UGH@lsmft.arpa
Subject: New TV shows

I just saw an article in the Los Angeles Times about some of the new
shows that will be on television next season.  No dates or times
were mentioned but here is a list of the shows:

"My Favorite Martians"
Starring: Bill Bixby, Ray Walston and Chevy Chase

The story takes place several years after the first show supposedly
ended.  Uncle Martin gets visited by a research team of scientists
from Mars who decide to stay and live on Earth.  Chevy Chase plays
the head scientist of the research team.

"Star Trek: The Next Generation"
Starring: ??????

Since this has been posted on the net before I won't say anything
else about it.

"Flash Gordon"
Starring: Ed Begley Jr. (Flash), Melody Anderson (Dale Arden
Gordon), David Opatashu (Zarkov), John Colicos (Ming), Noah Hathaway
(Jim "Sparks" Gordon).

Yes, the hero from the early days of SF returns in a new series.
Melody Anderson you may recall played Dale in the 1980 movie so she
is a good choice for the role.  Noah Hathaway also may be familiar
to fans of Battlestar Galactica.

The season begins with the revelation that Ayotollah Khomeini is
really Ming in disguise.  Most of the action for the first season is
on Earth.  If the show is a success, more money will be budgeted so
that Ming (and company) can return to Mongo. The special effects for
the show will be done by Industrial Light and Magic.

"Lost in Space"
Starring: Mark Goddard (Major Don West), Marta Kristen (Judy
Robinson West), Matthew Laborteoux (Adam West), Janet Smith (Deena
Freeman), Bob May (the voice of the robot)

Another revival show, Mr. and Mrs. Robinson have both died in the
intervening years.  Will Robinson became a space hippy and travels
the universe in a beat-up ship he found and repaired.  There are
plans to have him appear in guest shots although Billy Mumy seems
reluctant.  Penny was kidnapped by some aliens and the remaining
members of the crew are searching for her.  Dr. Smith finally did
something stupid enough to get himself (and his alien wife) killed.
Apparently, Janet is his wacky, half-alien daughter.

All of the names here should be familiar to tv viewers.  Aside from
Mark Goddard, Marta Kristen and Bob May who were all in the
original, you may remember Matthew Laborteoux as the computer genius
in "The Whiz Kids."  Deena Freeman played Ted Knight's niece, April,
in "Too Close for Comfort" as well as many commercial spots.

"The Lensman"
Starring: ?????

This show is a new show currently being filmed in England by Gerry
Anderson.  He is once more reviving his SuperMarionation puppets
which made him so famous to bring us new stories about E.E. Doc
Smith's Lensmen.

"Agent of the Terran Empire"
Starring: Erin Gray

Erin plays Diane Flandry who is a female James Bond-ish type
character.  The show is loosely based on Poul Anderson's famous
Flandry stories.

Well, that's all that is listed that is relevant to the topic.  Also
look for about 3 more nighttime soaps and many new sitcoms to
appear.

ugh@lsmft.arpa
Livermore Systems Magnetic Fusion Terminus
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5590 L-516
Livermore, California 94550

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 87  00:31:31 EST
From: costell%YMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Sylvester McCoy Fired!!!!!!

I have just heard from some friends of mine in Great Britain that
Sylvester McCoy who had recently been chosen to be the replacement
for Colin Baker has been fired even before filming has started.

Lord Grade said, "We received many letters from the colonies about
our choice of a replacement for Colin Baker.  Many fans were
concerned that we would start having villains named 'Tweety' or
'Spike' as a sort of 'in' joke.  Many more were concerned that the
scriptwriters would start using lines like: 'I'm a time-lord not an
engineer'.

  "To avoid any possible confusion we have fired Mr. McCoy and have
instead hired John Cleese.  Many viewers, both here and abroad, will
recognize Mr. Cleese from the Monty Python comic troupe.  He is also
a very fine dramatic actor and has done Shakespeare.  His unique
blend of skill, talent and comic wit will add a great deal to the
show.

  "The first story to be filmed will concern the regeneration,
naturally.  But it will take place during the time of the Spanish
Inquisition.  There should be no surprize to the viewer as to whom
will play the role of Tourqemada."

I just hope that they don't get extremely silly with the show.  With
John Cleese around we could see the Doctor develop a "silly walk" or
even began searching for a 40ft tall hedgehog named Spiney Norman
but I pray they don't descend to that level.  On the other hand,
Cleese will bring back the charm and wit that has been sorely
lacking since Tom Baker left the show.

Costell@YMass.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 87 12:40:52 GMT
From: ree@cca.CCA.COM (Ronald Eastland)
Subject: Re: BOSKONE XXIV Con Report

Since I seem to be one of the few people who have access to the net
who is currently a member of NESFA, I have been asked by the club to
make an official statement regarding the recent problems we have
been having with planning future Boskones.

The committee at a recent secret meeting, voted unanimously to
continue holding the convention in Boston.  We have a fine and well
known tradition of running one of the best cons on the east coast
and particularly the Boston area.  However, as most of you have
heard by now, none of the hotels in the Boston, Mass. area are
willing to host the convention.

Naturally we are very upset, but we believe we have an alternative
solution.  Next year's Boskone, Boskone 25, will be held in Boston,
England.  This insures that Boskone will still be in Boston and will
still be the best run con on the east coast. The east coast of
England.  If things work out, we will make this move permanent.

We feel confident that moving to Boston, England will solve our
attendance problems as many of the fans who now travel to Boskone
will not be able to afford the trip to England.  Only the truly
dedicated fans will now attend.  We will also be eliminating the
film and video program because of differences between English and
American equipment.

The Art show will also be cancelled as many artists typically mail
in their work and we don't believe the postal service can be trusted
for overseas delivery of valuable art.  Although if the artists or
their agents are willing to bring the art themselves, we will be
more than happy to arrange a smaller art show.  Since only the
wealthier fans will attend the con due to the costs, the artists
would be able to set higher minimum bids and make enough money to
pay for their own expenses plus a profit.

For a brief time, we considered Boston, Georgia but felt that
changing our club name to GASFA just didn't sound right.  We can
save a great deal of money by buying white-out and changing it to
ESFA by eliminating the "N" (or "New" where the name is spelled out
in full).  This means we can save a lot of money and avoid having
new stationery, flyers, T-shirts, underwear, and other printed
materials redone.

We hope that this is a temporary solution as our clubhouse is
currently in Massachusets and we don't believe we can raise enough
money by selling it to purchase a new one in England.  Although the
real estate agent did mumble something about "one born every minute"
when we discussed the possibility.

We certainly hope we haven't offended anyone and, as I said, this is
for one year only.  Although if we have, we really don't care.

This decision does not affect Noreascon III since we are in the
process of building a new hotel in the Boston area to host the '89
Worldcon and all future Boskones.  I recommend buying your
memberships immediately since by the time the building is fully
constructed, memberships may get raised to an amount in excess of
$1000.

Ronald E. Eastland, III
ARPA: ree@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!ree

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Mar 87 2045-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #124
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 87 2045-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #124
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:

              Administrivia - Mail Problems (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - The VW Time Beetle &
                              A Message from the Emperor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 00:44:31 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Major Problems with mail addresses

   Lately, we have been experiencing some major problems with mail
going out to the networks.  It seems with all of the different
networks and protocols around, there have been cases where we just
can't talk to machines that we used to be able to send mail through.
I am getting back at least 20 messages per digest about failed mail.
The following message I received from the system administrator at
another site which just shows the kinds of problems we are having.
If there are any network mail hackers out there who can help me
solve these problems I (and the rest of the subscribers) would
certainly appreciate your help.  If this continues, SF-LOVERS could
cease to exist simply because we can't send mail onto the network
any more.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 07:36:21 -0800
To: sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu.terra.area3
Subject: Fix to biod problem
From: postmaster@ncc.igpu.net

What is going on with the networks in terra.area3?  We are getting
an increasing number of complaints from subscribers to your mailing
list.  It seems that they are unable to figure out how to respond to
messages that appear in the group.  We thought we had figured out
what you were doing.  Apparently your addresses gave the entire
geneology of the recipient, with successive generations being
separated by !'s.  Thus we need only locate your oldest living
ancestor, and the message would be forwarded appropriately.  (A
number of people have commented favorably upon the apparent virility
of certain of your people, particularly Mr. Seismo, and the somewhat
oddly named Ihnp4.)

Recently however we have been seeing an increasing number of
addresses where portions of the ancestry consist of strings of names
put together with dots.  Sometimes these appear alone, and sometimes
as components of the geneology.  Quite frankly, we are unable to see
any pattern to the way in which they are combined.  We have
considered various theories.  The most popular is that a decline in
morals has caused the ancestry of certain individuals to be
uncertain, and that this is a way of specifying several
possibilities.  Apparently the ancestries of Messrs. Edu and Gov are
particularly uncertain.  However we are not at all sure of this
theory.

If you wish us to continue carrying messages from you, it is
essential for you to clarify your addressing conventions.

Sincerely,

Ixthun Pardunk,
Supervisor of Network Routing
Network Control Center
Intergalatic Postal Union

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 87 06:18:42 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@rutgers.edu (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: The VW Time Beetle

                            TIME BEETLE

                      Originally by Paul Farah
      Recreated from memory by Jim Frost (with modifications)

   I knew it was going to be one of those days from the moment I
woke up.  You see, my alarm clock was making an odd ringing noise
instead of its normal soft music.  What I didn't know was just how
bad the day would be.

   I left my house for work at about 8:15am, which was about normal.
I hopped into my rather antiquated VW Bug and putted along to work.
The day went smoothly enough.  I only thought about how much I hated
my job for 6 hours instead of eight, since the first floor caught
fire at about 3pm and we were evacuated, allowing me to go home two
hours early.

   As I drove into my driveway, things began to get weird.  My VW
was parked where I always park it.  The problem is, I was DRIVING my
bug.  I parked beside my VW and hopped out.  My curiousity was at a
dangerous level.  I opened the door to the other vw, and climbed in.
Why not?  It's MY car, even if my car was parked beside it.  But the
dashboard was like a science fiction movie gone wild.  There were
knobs, dials, and other gadgets everywhere.  Completely engrossed, I
began looking around the car.  Finally, I found a small booklet.  I
began to read it.

        Thank you for purchasing the VWT101 Time Beetle.  You have
        made a fine choice.  The VWT101 is cabable of both temporal
        and spatial displacement, using dihydrogen oxide for fuel.
        Spatial movement is accomplished using normal frictional
        methods.  The methods used for temporal move- ment, however,
        have been significantly improved since the VW100 was
        introduced.  Among the enhancements are ....

From there on in, it got too technical for me, and I skipped over to
the section entitled "simple operating instructions".

        To undergo temporal movement, you should first fasten your
        seatbelt.

Sure, everyone knows that.  Bumpy stuff, time traveling.

        Then, set your intended temporal destination using the
        panel marked "temporal destination."

I looked around.  Yup, there it was.  Right about where the radio
should be.  I wondered where the radio was, but never did find it.

        Temporal displacement is measured using the normal calendar,
        although this is not accurate for all time frames.  When
        setting the day, the display will automatically skip those
        periods which cannot be reached (such as September 3 through
        13, 1752).  When the temporal destination has been set,
        start the VWT101 and push the button marked "displace."  The
        time spent in travel is proportional to the length of the
        dis- placement, but should not last more than a few seconds
        for jumps of up to a million years.

        For additional information on temporal displacement, please
        see "Rules and Regulations on the Use of Temporal Vehicles",
        which may be obtained from any government office or
        licensing bureau.

Fine.  I now own a time machine.  What in hell do I do with a time
machine?  My mind was buzzing.  Of course!  Go for a trip.  I
wondered how much fuel the thing had left, but finally gave up on
trying to check, since the thing used water anyway and I could
probably come up with more water if I needed it.

   Where should I go?  How about to my own birthday, in the year
2050?  Why not.  So I set the thing to November 15, 2050, and sat
back for a second before hitting the panic button.

        "HEY!  WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?"

   I nearly jumped clean out of my skin.  I was looking at myself
through the window.  What's more, I was screaming at myself.  This
was too much.  I snapped on the ignition (the thing used a key, and
the key was still there), noted that it ran about as loudly as my
normal car, and slammed it into reverse.

    "Come back here!" yelled the other me.  He was now behind me,
waving his arms and yelling frantically.  Still shook up, I kept the
thing floored for about two blocks.  Finally slowing down, I
remembered about the time travel part of this car.  I hit the
button.

   Nothing happened.

   Well, really lots of things happened, but the trip was wholly
uneventful.  No noise.  No flashy lights.  Nothing.  Disappointing,
after all the movies I'd seen.

   The scenery was much more interesting.  In an instant, the road
had been transformed into a parking lot.  There were tall buildings
all around me.  Directly in front of me was a lot with a dirty sign,
which read "used cars."

   I climbed out of my car and began looking around.  The general
state of things was disarray.  There weren't a lot of people around,
and they all ignored me.  They weren't dressed particularly
strangely, though this one girls had a suit with a hole....  Hmm.
Have to go out with her someday.

   Unimpressed with the future, I hopped back in the car.  I reset
the temporal thingy to 5pm the day I had left, and hit the button.
Things looked normal once again.  I drove back to my house and
pulled into the driveway.  There were no cars here.  Becoming
distressed, I got out and began looking around.  As I walked around
the garage, I heard a car drive up.  Not thinking anything of it, I
kept looking around.  Everything looked all right.  I came around
the garage and saw two VW's.  Someone was in my VW!  I ran up to the
window and screamed, "HEY!  WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?"  Then
I noticed that I was in the car.  The me in the car looked very
startled, quickly started the car, and took off down the street.  I
tried telling myself to stop the car, but it was no use.  Upset, I
turned around and saw myself.

   This was getting to be too much.  "Are you me?"  I asked.  "Yes,"
I replied.  "What is going on?"  I asked.  "I'm not quite sure
myself," was my response.  I was very confused at this point, and
the world began to spin.  Things went black.

   I woke up inside the garage.  About an hour had passed.  I opened
the door and looked out.  Two VW's were parked there.  After looking
inside, I figured out which one was the time travelling beetle.  I
climbed in again, drove around the corner, and sat for a minute to
think.  This all made no sense.  Where did the car come from?  Since
no answers came to mind, I dropped the question.  I was hungry now.
Supper would have been at about 5:30.  Suddenly, a bright idea hit
me.  I set the temporal displacement gauge for 5:30, and pushed the
button.  The I got out of the car and walked home.  I have no I dea
why I didn't drive home (or even why I drove around the corner in
the first place).  Walking up to the house, I saw two VW bugs.
Someone was in one of them, and another person suddenly ran up to it
and screamed something unintelligible.  The vw started up, screeched
out of the driveway, and screamed off down the street.  The person
who had been screaming at the car turned around as I cam up to him.

   He was me again.  "Are you me?"  he asked.  "Yes," I replied to
myself.  "What is going on?" he asked.  "I'm not quite sure myself,"
I replied.  He went suddenly white and passed out.

   I dragged myself into the garage.  Then I left, walking around
the corner to where I'd left the car.  I drove the car back, put it
in the driveway next to the other car, and went inside to eat.  I
really was hungry.  A little while later, I heard a car start up.
Busy eating, I neglected to look outside.  I didn't want to know if
I'd be out there.  When I got up the next morning, only my normal
car was parked in the driveway.

   I guessed that it had all been a dream.  I jumped into my car and
drove off to work.  But I had work off -- the building had been
cordoned off.  It seems there had been a fire....

Jim Frost
UUCP:  harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPANET: madd@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: madd%bucsb@bu-cs
BITNET:  cscc71c@bostonu

------------------------------

From: Emperor@Empire.Galactic.Gov       < The Dark Master >
Subject: Greetings
Date: A long time ago

I am the new Emperor of the Galaxy and you are my new subjects.  I
wish you all to know of my exploits that have made me take my
destined place as your master.

I was born as Luke Skywalker, orphaned water farmer.  I became
involved with Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi master and found my destiny
intertwined with the Force.  The Force is power.  It is radiated by
all things. I can control that power and use it for my desires.
That power makes me the master.

You see, the Emperor before me had succeeded in turning my father,
Darth Vader, to the Dark side of the Force and enslaving his will.
He thought that he could force me to kill my father and subjugate
me.  He wanted me to take my father's place.  How little did he
realize how much of the Force I was already familiar with.  I
defeated them both and took the Emperor's place as was my destiny.

I was also able to destroy the rebel fleet after destroying Han
Solo.  Now I have settled down and taken my sister Leia as my bride.
Our children should be very strong with the force.  They will take
my place when I grow old, but until then we will rule the universe,
as is our destiny.  I had to bend a few necks in order to make the
Empire recognize me now that the old Emperor and my father are gone,
but they already knew of the power of the Dark side, so it didn't
take long.

So now I am thinking of taking over your galaxy.  Do any of you have
the Force as your ally?

Oedipus Vader
The Darkest Emperor

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Apr 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #125
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #125
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:

            Administrivia - Mea Culpa,
            Books - Atwood (4 msgs) & DeCamp & Foglio &
                    Garrett & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                    Writer Inquiries & Ace Specials (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 08:28:23 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa

   The reason I say that twice is because issues #123 and #124 were
both April Fool's issues perpetrated by yours truly.  #124 I though
was the outright "ha-ha" type of stuff and #123 was intentionally
made to be more subtle.
   For those who are curious, I wrote all of the stuff appearing in
#123 with the help of a few friends.  Issue #124 was mostly
contributions from others.  To those of you who sent me suggestions
that didn't get used: next time please mail them to
sf-lovers-request@red.  The way you sent them, they were
automatically forwarded to half the network and thereby ruined the
element of surprise necessary for April Fool's jokes.
   I hope every one enjoyed them.  If you didn't catch the jokes, go
back and re-read.

April Fools!

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 20:33:44 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Handmaiden's Tale

                       The Handmaiden's Tale
                         by Margaret Atwood
                     Ballantine, 2/87, 395 page

   In the near future, partly because of a decline in human
fertility (due to both social and environmental factors) a new wave
of fundamentalism sweeps the United States.  When that wave crests,
the United States is the Republic of Gilead, those who cannot or
will not live with the new order are destroyed, and women are
chattel.  The narrator is a woman.
   The time is the near future; most of the population remembers a
freer and more humane past, and would prefer it.  But the
fundamentalist takeover is so smooth and is enforced so brutally,
that the time to resist is past before people realize it.
   The techniques of terror and oppression are Americanized, but
readily recognizable.  When we read of Nazi Germany or the Gulag we
are reading cautionary stories -- but we are also receiving lessons.
We are learning the state of the art in the technology of enslaving
a domestic population.
   If this were a science fiction book, what I have outlined would
probably constitute part of the first chapter.  Then, having
established the background, the author would go on to the actual
story.  Margaret Atwood establishes the background in a more
leisurely fashion: it takes her close to four hundred pages.  This
isn't a story that takes place in an imagined society; it is a
portrait of that society, a more careful, more carefully drawn,
portrait than we are used to seeing.  The portrait is understated
and believable.
   The narrator is Offred.  'Offred' is not the name she was born
with; that vanished with her old legal status.  The name signifies
that she belongs to the household of Fred.  She isn't interested in
describing or explaining what happened to the United States,
although we learn much of that from her narrative.  She describes
her own experiences.  Most of her experiences have not been
dramatically horrifying.  Rather, she is stunned, numbed.  Three
years earlier she was living a life about as different from ours as
ours is from that our parents led at our age.  Now she is Offred,
and fresh corpses of people who disapprove of the new dispensation
are on daily display.
   Comparisons between this book and 1984 are inevitable, and
justified.  It seems clear that many of the parallels are
deliberate.  But this book is less fantastic than 1984, more
believable, more banal.
   This isn't a science fiction book.  People who pick it up
expecting one will probably be disappointed.  But a jaded science
fiction author, in racing past the 'setup' to the action, would not
give us as close and as powerful a view of this society, the
potential for which may be clearly seen in our own.  On the other
hand, a jaded author of science fiction would probably have known
better than to compromise the impact and integrity of the book by
ending it with one of those tired 'scientists discussing the
manuscript centuries later' epilogues.
   I recommend reading this book.  And if it hasn't captured you
after the first fifty pages or so, it won't.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 00:34:15 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale

This is not a flame, I think, but a *very* strong disagreement. "The
Handmaid's Tale" is *most* *certainly* science fiction! Absolutely!

What is science fiction, anyway? Skipping all the niggling
discussion of science fiction vs. fantasy vs. sf, etc. which
sf-lovers has been discussing; how can you say that this book is not
sf? It takes place in the future, the transition from our society to
its society is outlined, it uses this future society to reflect upon
our own.

You seem to be saying that "The Handmaid's Tale" is not sf because
it isn't paced like most sf books, is more detailed in its
sociological description than most sf books, and has an ending that
you think sf books wouldn't have. (An aside: I found the ending
perhaps the most chilling part of the book, and not lame at all.)
These aren't reasons to say that it is not sf; merely to say that it
is not like most sf that you have seen.

Certainly, anyone picking up "The Handmaid's Tale" looking for
spaceships, aliens, or wizards with talking dragons will be
disappointed. But that is not all the science fiction is. I am
coming down heavily on this, because there is a real tendency among
both sf fans and the "mainstream" to assume that if it's really
good, by mainstream literary standards, it can't be sf. I see that
in your review, Dani, and I cannot disagree more.

"The Handmaid's Tale" is one of the best science fiction novels I
have read in ten years. It has been nominated for the Hugo award for
best sf novel of 1986.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 02:44:04 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale

A small nitpick; Handmaid's Tale has not been nominated for a Hugo
(at least not yet; the postmark deadline for nominations is
tomorrow). It has been nomiated for a Nebula, the award given,
nominated, and voted on by the Science Fiction Writers of America.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 19:20:21 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale

Shoshana Green:
>This is not a flame, I think, but a *very* strong disagreement.
>"The Handmaid's Tale" is *most* *certainly* science fiction!
>Absolutely!....
>there is a real tendency among both sf fans and the "mainstream" to
>assume that if it's really good, by mainstream literary standards,
>it can't be sf.

I've tried and failed to come up with a reasonable definition of
science fiction which excludes "The Handmaiden's Tale".  Still,
although I made the wrong distinction, I think there is a
distinction to be made.  And it's not based on quality: I've read
better books (by mainstream or sf literary standards) which were
clearly sf-not-mainstream, and I'm sure you have too.

There is a difference between sf and mainstream fiction (perhaps
unfortunately).  They tend to *feel* different, primarily in what
they expect of the reader.  "The Handmaiden's Tale", though it
straddles the boundary between the two kinds of fiction, has the
feel of the latter.

Not better, not worse, different.

"The Handmaiden's Tale" is a good book.  Not 'good for a science
fiction book', or 'good by mainstream standards'.  Science fiction,
yes, but it has the feel of Imagination Stretching for People Not
Accustomed to the Exercise.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 13:48 CDT
From: Never Normal! <JMELLBY%ti-eg.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Wall of Serpents

I can't pass up a chance to try to beat Jerry Boyajian, but in
addition to the three printings he listed, the Wall of Serpents was
printed (in two parts) in The Dragon magazine (Gary Gygax' and TRS'
house magazine about D&D) in the late seventy's.  My copies are at
home, but I believe they were printed in 1978.

John Mellby
jmellby%ti-eg@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 01:28:17 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Spring/summer titles from Donning/Starblaze (more!)

The new Starblaze book by Phil Foglio that was untitled in the press
release will almost certainly be the next book in the "Buck
Godot-Zap Gun For Hire" series.

Also, Phil's said that he'll be leaving the illustrating of the
Myth- books soon; a combination of being busy with other stuff and
getting tired of getting the manuscripts so late that he doesn't
have time to do what he feels is his best work.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87 16:56:42 CST
From: C418433%UMCVMB.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Randall Garrett

With all the dreadful rumors floating about, I hesitate to ask, but:
    Does anyone know exactly what happened to Randall Garrett? The
references in the The_Best_of_Randall_Garrett and the Gandarlian
(sp?)  cycles are rather vague.

Joseph Curwen
C418433@UMCVMB.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 11:28:05 est
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #114

> Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM writes:
>>The Prince, a teleporter and Temporal Fugue master, based his
>>powers solely on these attributes and his native intelligence and
>>wisdom. I don't recall him ever using a machine at all in the
>>books. Horus was a telekinetic and telepath, as well as a fugue
>>artist. He didn't bother with machines either.
>
> I seem to recall that the Prince who was a Thousand used lasers
> and possibly x-ray devices in an attempt to destroy the Nameless.

For that matter, the Prince Who Was a Thousand built the Houses of
Life and Death (as well as the other N-2 Houses which were
destroyed), and is at least indirectly responsible for many of the
magical gadgets in the book.  This is consistent with most
mythology: there are gods who teach humanity about various wonders
of technology and control over the environment (fire, writing,
agriculture, sex, laundry machines, etc.).  I seem to remember that
the Prince in _Creatures_ was Thoth, and that Thoth in Egyptian
mythology was responsible for writing at least.

Bard Bloom

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 09:10:14 PST (Tuesday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

  Spoiler material: 'Creatures of Light and Darkness' and 'Lord of
Light'

Wayne Throop (dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu) writes (most thought
provokingly, I might add):
>> The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General, who
>> seemed to have a power unrelated to machines, magic, or
>> paranormal abilities.  It appeared that he was simply incapable
>> of being permanently destroyed, no matter what. This power was
>> not related to any instrumentality in particular, but instead to
>> his adherence to high ideals and ethical standards. Thus, there
>> was always someone willing to put him back together.
>
>But again, he was no god.  In fact, his roots were traced back and
>the timeline of CoLaD is shown to be the future of our own
>timeline.  The Steel General was involved in revolutions that
>occured in our own time.  (Usually on the losing side.)

Who says? He looked just as much a god to me as Anubis or Osiris. He
was as powerful as most of them, more immortal than either of the
other two.  He would never say it, of course, but that's part of his
mystique.

>Obscure compulsions, like the fact that Osiris was envious of Set's
>relationship with the Red Witch, and resented the fact that she was
>always ready to go back to Set if/when she could.  Mighty plans
>motivated by greed for power and Anubis's spite of all the other
>Angels.  And if Set doesn't have "lust for battle", then I don't
>know who does.

They still seemed obscure to me. The prince is wise and altruistic
beyond all belief. Madrak seems primarily motivated by
wishy-washiness, of all things. I got the feeling that Vramin, the
green magician, was mainly interested in being clever and tricky.

Osiris and Anubis were interested in power which was not immediately
beneficial to them as far as I could see. Now in LoL, The gods were
interested in partying, having neat toys, and only secondarily
interested in power (except for Ganesha, who was also obscurely
compelled) except as much as necessary to assure continued good
times.  In CoLaD, they were after a subtle sort of galactic
dominance or similar intangibles, unless Anubis really enjoyed
partying with and ruling a bunch of corpses.

Perhaps I just don't have the proper aspirations...

In any case, I think both books make a single point. To be a god
requires nothing more than a particular sense of ruthlessness (even
with good intentions) and a lot of power, from whatever source.
Nothing else.

Kurt Piersol

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 17:25:33 GMT
From: osupyr!rhr@rutgers.edu (The Fugitive Guy)
Subject: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries

I have a good question for all of the fantasy critics/aficionados
out there.  I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black
Cauldron series ) has written any other fantasy works. I would also
like the name of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not
listed here.

The ones I remember are

The Black Cauldron
Taran Wanderer
The High King

The other author I am wondering about won a Newberry award (I think)
for one of her books in "The Dark is Rising" series. Her first name
is Susan.  Also, the names of the books in the series would be
appreciated. The only title I can remember is "Silver on the Tree",
which was the last book of the series.

Thanks in advance,
Email if  possible

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 04:38:39 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_bjjb@rutgers.edu (Jared J Brennan)
Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they?

   Ace has recently (past couple of months) released _The Hercules
Text_, which is in the line of Ace Specials.  So, obviously, the
line continues to exist.

   The previous titles were...
      _Green Eyes_ , Lucius Shepard
      _Home From the Shore_ , Kim Stanley Robinson
      _Neuromancer_ , William Gibson
      _Palimpsests_ , ?
      _Them Bones_ , Howard Waldrop
      _In the Drift_ (?) , ?

   _The Hercules Text_ contained a sort of apology in the foreword
for the paucity of titles in the line.  Something along the lines
of, while there have been more books coming out recently, they
haven't been good enough.

Jared Brennan
ins_bjjb@jhunix (on Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 20:32:16 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they?

ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes:
>    The previous titles were...
>       _Green Eyes_ , Lucius Shepard
>       _Home From the Shore_ , Kim Stanley Robinson
>       _Neuromancer_ , William Gibson
>       _Palimpsests_ , ?
>       _Them Bones_ , Howard Waldrop

Actually they are (in chronological order):
   THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson
   GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard
   NEUROMANCER by William Gibson
   PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt
   THEM BONES by Howard Waldrop
   IN THE DRIFT by Michael Swanwick
   THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Apr 87 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #126
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 87 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #126
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Mar 87 01:44:21-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: SF Cons vs. Hotels

   There has been a great deal of talk on the net about the future
of Boskone and/or WorldCon '89.  I do not not want to discuss the
alleged decisions of NESFA; it's their party but we'll sigh if we
want to. What I would like to address is the possible attitudes of
hotels towards large SF Cons, as opposed to say, cons of car
dealers.
   Some people have been saying that hotels like SF cons because fen
don't cause much damage. This does not hold up. Hotels require
conventions (SF and otherwise) to post deposits to cover damage by
attendees. In fact, if convention members trash a slightly grubby
room, the hotel comes out ahead, since the repair, paid for by the
con, brings the room up to new condition.  If damage were a real
problem, then the many other groups which cause MORE damage then fen
could never get space. The only damage which really bugs hotels is
that which prevents a function space from being rented immediately
after the con.
   Fans don't bring the hotel much money/body. Fans are poor
compared with the expense-account conventioneers. We tend to 'tuple
up on rooms something fierce: I would estimate that the mean night
population at Boskone was 3/room, and very few paid the extra fee
for extra people.  We do not patronize the hotel restaurants much,
especially the better ones with their higher profit margins. We do
not tip well: how many fen remember the chambermaids?  We don't much
attend the hotel bars, yet expect corkage fees to be waived. We
don't use room service. We expect to do our own setup/breakdown,
denying to hotel fees for this service.
   Fans make unusual demands on hotel facilities.  A modern, big SF
con runs ~24 hours/day, with lulls from 4 AM to 10 AM.  We want the
restaurants, snack bar, pool, jacuzzi, etc open as late as
conceivably possible.  Extra security is required, at odd hours
(Boskone paid for part of the extra security there). We want the
emergency stairways open.  Extra staff is required, on overtime.
   Fans make bad publicity for the hotel (yes! really!). Hotels have
regular customers which act as their bread and butter.  'Freaking
out the Mundanes' in the elevator is fun, but the hotel fears that
they might not come back. At Boskone, they always seem to be flight
crew. After the first false alarm, I walked down 20+ flights of
stairs followed by a rushed, irate airline pilot, whose opinions of
fandom and Sheraton had taken a distinct downturn.  Most of the
false fire alarms at Boskone may not have been pulled by members,
but the vast numbers of fen roaming the halls and stairwells late at
night provided the environment which allowed that to happen; at a
'normal' con the non-con kids invading the hotel would have been
expelled on short order.  Every alarm also caused an automatic
turnout by the fire department, who milled around the lobby until
each alarm was declared false. Hotels have to be periodically
certified by the local FD.  Memories of being pulled out of bed 4+
times in a night by a hotel that booked a bunch of maniacs will do
marvels for an inspector's powers of observation, allowing him to
find violations he could never have spotted otherwise.
   Looking over the above, if I were a mundane hotel manager, I
would be reluctant to book an SF con unless there were no other way
I could fill rooms and rent space. The fact that Boskone and
Worldcon have to book space so far in advance suggests that SF has a
lot of competition for facilities of that size.
   It's no wonder we're having trouble.

Peter Trei
oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 14:00:15 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Word Fantasy Con as a Species of SF-con

Becky Slocombe writes, re the possibility of conventions at a
Westin:
>  The World Fantasy Con that was held in Ottawa (1983?) was held at
>the Westin.  I can't think of a more beautiful hotel...  I wonder
>what nice things the World Fantasy Con said that made them look
>that attractive?  "Sercons" might find themselves better received.

This convention is almost totally unlike most people's experience of
SF conventions.  It is much more like a business convention
(including the wearing of ceremonial "doing-business" clothing :-)),
and what fannish activity there is on a much more serious level.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 17:53:08 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Con at a Westin hotel (was Re: Boskone)

becky@sq.UUCP writes:
>dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>>This seems a bit overblown.  The Westin has always been too high
>>class for any kind of SF convention and has consistently rejected
>>all approaches.  As for the others of the big three, some
>>discussions are
>
> Not true.  The World Fantasy Con that was held in Ottawa (1983?)
> was held at the Westin.  I can't think of a more beautiful
> hotel...  I wonder what nice things the World Fantasy Con said
> that made them look that attractive?  "Sercons" might find
> themselves better received.

I was at the World Fantasy Con in Ottawa (I think it was in 84, but
wouldn't swear to it), and I can tell you exactly what the
difference is.  World Fantasy Con is a professional convention.  NO
costumes of any sort allowed in the con, no video program, no really
open parties, in short, none of the traditional fannish programming
at all.  It was interesting to go to and see what happens at it
once, but very simply put, this is a con for writers, agents and
publishers to get together and talk business.  A great many of the
panels and discussions were aimed more at writers and artists
discussing their craft with each other than at the fans who buy/read
their work.  From the hotel's viewpoint, in terms of the type of
attendees attracted and the type of programming (nothing ran later
than midnight), there is very little difference between this con and
a convention of stock brokers, or other mundane professional people.
   I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it being that
sort of convention, but comparing it to a traditional fannish
convention like Boskone is like comparing apples and oranges.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA or kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 12:34:36 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone

From: nylander%eyrie.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Chip)
>If there is going to be a major change in programming, however, the
>convention organizers have a RESPONSIBILITY to publicize that
>LOUDLY and CLEARLY in all pre-convention information and mailings.
>
>I will be eagerly looking forward to future Boskone information, to
>see how this is handled.

The present plan is to mail out many thousands of copies of a flyer
to the members of the past several Boskones.  This would also be
sent out in response to any inquiries.  Those who have already
purchased a Boskone 25 membership will be offered a refund.

The flyer will describe how Boskone will be different and will state
that it will not be at the Sheraton and will probably be on
different dates than previously announced.

When the details of Boskone 25 are decided on, there will probably
NOT be another mass mailing and an effort will be made to keep the
informaion out of prozines.  An attempt will be made to "advertise"
only via fanzines, semi-prozines, and possibly flyers sent to
selected SF cons.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee
+1 617-492-8860

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 16:53:35 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone

ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet) writes:
>dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>>The Westin has always been too high class for any kind of SF
>>convention and has consistently rejected all approaches
>
>I was at a Boskone held at the Westin a few years ago.  At the time
>we were told they were being trained in for use as an auxilliary
>hotel for the worldcon coming up.  The restaurants, in particular,
>were very ill- mannered.

There has never been a Boskone at a Westin.  The 1985 Boskone was
held at the Boston Marriott and is presumably what you are thinking
of.  They had a very narrow dress code and their restaurants refused
to serve anyone who was too informally dressed or in costume.

When Boskone grew too big for the Park Plaza, where it was in 1984,
the only choices were the Sheraton and the Marriott, the only two
substantially larger hotels.  The Sheraton really wanted us by Ann
Broomhead, the chairman of the 1985 Boskone, decided to try the
Marriott.  I don't know that they were particularly in training for
NOreascon.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee
+1 617-492-8860

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 21:52:39 GMT
From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (The Wizard)
Subject: Re: SF cons [and Boskone]

Regarding all the talk about reduced size Boskones, etc.

I typically only get to go to one *maybe* two cons, tops.  It's not
a financial problem, it's more logistical in getting away for a few
days with a bunch of friends at the same time.

For the con(s) that I go to, I naturally want to go to the best one
simply because I can't get to many at all.  Up until now, that con
was Boskone.  There was/is no other con that had as many people,
with so much varied programming happening.

I've been to 5 of the last 6 Boskones.  This last one ['87, XXIV]
had in the neighborhood of 4375 people [according to the final
Helmuth].  The updates that I got led me to believe it would be just
like XXIII.  They were wrong.  There was no video program, for one,
and the films were drastically cut back for another.  There were no
studio presentations either.  The worst part was the dealer's room.
The flyer said "about the same size as last year" and that they were
being more carefull about book dealers duplicating titles.  Well,
there was a lot more empty space in the dealer's room because they
laid out the tables MUCH differently.  Best guesstimate is that this
was around 2/3 the size of last year.

I read books.  I also go to the movies and I watch a little
television.  When I go to a con, I would like *all* of that.  Most
of the people I go with feel the same way.  There's just something
intangible about going to a place with 5000 of your closest friends.
Here in NH, there isn't much to do so cons are big events.

Maybe Boskone should farm out the events they no longer wish to
handle.  If they don't want to do a video program, let someone else
do it.  The point is that Boskone has come to mean more to a lot of
people.  With them scaling back their scope, there won't be a
regional be-all end-all con in this area.  It looks like the next
one around here will be Noreascon [Worldcon '89].

My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with other
groups so that they could get their help and still keep the best con
in the Northeast growing.  NESFA is complaining that Boskone is too
big for them.  Well, I, for one, would rather see Boskone continue
in the path that it began to take than see it diminished.  I can see
a lot of 'in memoriam' t-shirts [Veteran of Boskone Glory Years].

Are there any NESFAns listening?  If you need help, ask!  I'm sure
there are groups out there that would love to help make a Boskone.

Comments?
dj

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 22:18:49 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: SF cons [and Boskone]

>My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with
>other groups so that they could get their help and still keep the
>best con in the Northeast growing.  NESFA is complaining that
>Boskone is too big for them.

Actually, this is already the case. Check the home location of the
various people running around with Committee and Staff badges. A
large number of them are from way outside the Boston area.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1987 18:43 EST
From: Ben Yalow <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Nreascon Three News Release 3

The following is an edited copy of N3's News Release #3, Special
"Don't Panic" Issue, dated Feb 26, 1987.  It is being posted by
authorization of N3.

This is the third in a series of occasional news releases from
Noreascon Three, the 47th World Science Fiction Convention,
scheduled to be held in Boston, Mass., on Aug 31-Sept 4, 1989

Hotel Problems: As a result of their perception of events at the
recent Boskone, the management of the Sheraton-Boston Hotel have
expressed reluctance to be associated with future large science
fiction conventions, including Noreascon Three.  (This attitude
seems to be based not so much on any specific misconduct by
attendees, as on a general distaste for the strains imposed on the
hotel by a 24-hour convention.)  Discussions are under way aimed at
persuading the hotel to reconsider this position; no final decision
has yet been made.  We do of course have an agreement with the
hotel, and we hope the situation can be resolved amicably.  People
are strongly urged not to jump to conclusions.

Members should note that we have no problems with the Hynes
Convention Center, and that we have now increased our space
reservation in the Hynes by 82,000 square feet.  We are exploring
all our options.  Fortunately, the change from two to three years'
lead time before the convention has given us plenty of time to deal
with the problem.

Forthcoming issues of "The Mad 3 Party" (published bimonthly, will
have detailed discussions of all we know about the situation.  We
will issue further news releases whenever we have difinitive
information.  Only information distributed by the Noreascon Three
committee should be regarded as authoritative.

Publications: Unfortunately, the developments described above
occurred after our Progress Report 1 had gone to press.  Copies were
available for inspection at Boskone, and a mass mailing to all
members went out Feb 26; members should receive it (by bulk mail)
over the next couple of months.  It contains 64 pages of material,
including extensive articles on our Guests of Honor, the first
installment of Fred Patten's history of the Worldcon, a membership
list, etc.

Membership Data: As of Feb 25, Noreascon Three has a total of 2144
members (1902 Attending, 242 Supporting) and 39 Children's
Admissions.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 05:30:25 GMT
From: viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: SF Cons vs. Hotels

OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU writes:
>  Fans dont bring the hotel much money/body.  We do not tip
>well: how many fen remember the chambermaids?

Businessmen in general tip abysmally also, and in my 10 years
experience of business travel I've never heard any of my
fellow-travellers suggest that chambermaids should be tipped, these
days.  Fans often tip pretty well, I watch it happen a lot.

>We dont much attend the hotel bars, yet expect corkage fees to be
>waived.

Then how come the bars are always packed to capacity at conventions?
That's where I always have to go to find anybody.

On another topic in this general "convention" thread, it has been
pointed out to me that the Boskone I remember taking place at the
Westin was really in the Marriott.  Sorry, people.  When I can't
even rely on my personal experience maybe I should just give it all
up....

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Apr 87 0900-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #127
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 87 0900-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #127
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Kurtz (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 07:06:10 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>elliott@aero.UUCP (Ken Elliott) writes:
>>Then there's always the color difference when the 'different'
>>powers are being used ("Get'chor Color Spectrumizer Here! Only a
>>buck! You can't tell the players without a Spectrumizer..." :-) ).
>
>I don't recall a consistent color differentiation between "Haldane"
>and "Deryni" powers, which I gather is what you mean. The color
>differences between Kelson's and Charissa's spells I took to be due
>to the fact that they were using different spells (and to the fact
>that KK had not worked everything out at that point).

Up until the last Trilogy, in fact up until the Quest for St. Camber
I would have said that there was an absolute relationship between
one's heredity and the color of one's power.

Haldane power has manifested crimson in EVERY case a color has been
mentioned except

  1. Cinhil's first use of the Haldane power came out sort of
     pinkish.  He got over it.

  2. In Kelson's power ritual he manifested a golden aura.  I
     suspect this was a manifestation of his Deryni potentials
     reacting against or in accord with the stress produced by the
     ritual.  (Now that I think of it Jehana's shields were
     mentioned as being golden when she fought Charissa.)  So this
     isn't really an exception.

Morgan and Duncan (until the Quest for St. Camber anyway) always
manifested Green.  Just like Rhys Thuryn. I thought it went along
with the Healing Potential.  However in the Quest, Dughal's aura is
golden and Duncan's has turned to silver.  Of course sence by the
genetics Dughal would have inherited his power from his mother this
isn't a terrible problem.

As for Duncan's change of color I note that every other Deryni
Bishop we have seen has a silver aura just like Duncan's new one.
Dennis Arilan, Camber/ Alister, and Dom Emrys are all that I can
think of.  Mabye the ritual of investing a bishop can have have that
sort of effect on your aura.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Development

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 07:41:42 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Saint Bearand Haldane

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Recently I posted a comment saying that I thought Bearand Haldane
>might have been Deryni (or did I just mail it to someone? I
>forget).
> ..
> descrption of St. Bearand's place in the scheme of things
> ..
>
>Which still leaves the question: why was he canonized? (Miracles
>apparently aren't necessary for canonization in the Eleven
>Kingdoms; we never hear of the late Bishop Istelyn performing any.
>I thought that the Catholic Church required evidence of miracles to
>canonize someone (in our universe, this is); can anyone
>knowledgable say whether this is so?)

What we see from Saint Camber indicates that the post-intereggnum
Gwynedd Chirch liked to see evidence of miracles before cannonizeing
someone.

Since then with fewer Deryni around maybe fewer "miracles" have been
poping up, causing them to lower their standards by Kelson's time.
Maybe there are reports of minor miracles that we haven't been given
the details of.  Istelyn was certainly martyred.

Now on to St. Bearand.  I've had quite a few theories about him
myself ranging from more conspiracy theories (not Camberian this
time though) to my current favored one.

The Conspiracy Theory.

    What if the Haldane Power was known about before the Interegnum.
    but was a very well kept secret.  It was after the Restoration.
    If policy then said that the powers were only to be activated in
    an emergency - Like Moorish Invasions - the moors include deryni
    and no shame about using the power - and the Knowledge
    restricted to a few people like the Archbishops. Then the
    Knowledge could easily have been lost in the Coup.  The Coup has
    been described as a sudden thing - allowing no time for a power
    activation.  I envision something like the human Archbishop of
    Rhemuth dieing in the sack. A deryni Archbishop might be on the
    side of the Festils, and in any case once all of the Haldanes
    are presumed dead - then there is no point in perpetuating the
    knowledge.

    Certainly no one in Camber's circle of friends would have been
    told 80 years later.

    If the Archbishop's knew why was he cannonized?  Perhaps they
    thought him worthy and didn't want the true story to get out.

The Non-Conspiracy Theory (and my current favorite)

    This one assumes that no one has any inkling that the Haldane
    potential exists.  Note that Cinhil had strong shields long
    before he was put through a power ritual.  Dennis once
    speculated that the mantal disciplines that a monk learns would
    tend to bring out hints of latent power.  I think that this is
    what happened with Cinhil.  that he achieved a partial
    awakening on his own.  Perhaps something similar happened
    with St. Bearand.  Either he manifested an active ability
    through his faith.  A miracle activated some of his powers (the
    same way Dennis got through his ordination). Or perhaps just in
    developing hard shields he got a reputation of being protected
    by God's Grace.  Thus supplying evidence for later
    cannonization.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 1987  13:33 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: deryni

From: elliott@aero.ARPA (Ken Elliott)
>Hmmmm, interesting thought; I can't remember if any of the Haldane
>line has ever been exposed to merasha.

In Deryni Rising, Charissa slipped Brion merasha in his wine.  Not
enough to incapacitate him, but enough to render him helpless when
she struck.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 87 22:49:04 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: deryni vs. human power

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
>There is of course the line in the ancient Deryni priesting ritual
>that goes (as close as I can recall without the book in front of
>me), "We stand outside of time in a universe which is not ours."
>Gives rise to some interesting possibilities, no?

I think it is:
  "We stand outside of time in a place not of Earth.  As our
ancestors before us bade. ..."

Everyone seems to have their pet phrases.

Dennis seems incapable of doing a ritual without saying
".. We will not walk this path again."  with some reference to the
ancient ways thrown in.

This may be because of his council training.  We see only one
Council opening except for the emergency meeting about Wencit's
challange.  They say it there too.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: Fri 20 Mar 1987 12:52 CST
From: The Black Knight <MISS042%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Haldane Deryni powers

Well...it's been a while since I read Kurtz's books, but from what I
remember, there was a passage in one of the first series (don't ask
me which...I don't have them here at school) that implied that there
were lots of humans that could assume Deryni powers...you didn't
have to be of royal blood and also that any member of such a family
(Haldane) in this case) could assume them but there was a
rumor/legend that only the prince about to ascend to the throne
could. This was supposed to keep power struggles between
brothers/cousins from occuring...

this is just my opinion of what I remember

John Nowack
MISS042@ECNCDC
MISS042%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 87 11:10:26 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: more Kurtz speculations (Spoiler)

From: sal%brandeis.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
>  But Michaela's mother was Cathan's widow...  And Davin and Ansel
>were definitely Deryni - and known to be such by the regents
>(remember Davin was blamed by the regents for the assassination
>attempt on the princes).  Oh well, it should be fun to see her
>plots twist - and I hope that they improve beyond Deus Ex Machina
>once she gets back to the better developed characters (in my
>opinion, anyway).  I have to admit that I was a little disappointed
>by the Quest for St. Camber...

This may not have anything to do with this but I seem to recall that
there was one group of Deryni that were exempted from the general
attainder.  Deryni heiresses.  If people know or think that James
Drummond is human they might forget about the fact that his wife is
Deryni.  Particularly since she has never made herself terribly
obtrusive.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 87 21:18:27 GMT
From: maddox@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Carl Greenberg (guest))
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz "Bishop's Heir?" (Spoiler)

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>I don't recall a consistent color differentiation between
>>"Haldane" and "Deryni" powers, which I gather is what you mean.
>>The color differences between Kelson's and Charissa's spells I
>>took to be due to the fact that they were using different spells
>>(and to the fact that KK had not worked everything out at that
>>point).
>
>Up until the last Trilogy, in fact up until the Quest for St.
>Camber I would have said that there was an absolute relationship
>beween one's heredity and the color of one's power.

I would say there's no relationship whatsoever.  Arilan had a silver
aura.  Charissa used blue.  In the Duel scene in High Deryni, the
warders displayed amber, silver, blue, and crimson.  Morgan always
used green.  Wencit used violet.  I would think the aura would just
be personal preference rather than anything else.  Perhaps it's just
your favourite colour, or the one you look best in.

>Haldane power has manefested crimson in EVERY case a color has been
>mentioned

Perhaps since the Haldane power is assumed, the aura colour of
crimson comes with it.  You might note that crimson is a Haldane
colour, and that green is the colour of the Corwyn gryphon.

>As for Duncan's change of color I note that every other Deryni
>Bishop weve seen has a silver aura just like Duncan's new one.
>Dennis Arilan, Camber/ Alister, and Dom Emrys are all that I can
>think of.  Mabye the ritual of investing a bishop can have have
>that sort of effect on your aura.

Camber had a silver aura before he became Alister.  Evidently aura
colour also determines what colour your handfire is, and Duncan's
little knockout sphere was green.... hmmm.  Then again that was in
Deryni Rising, where I gather Katherine hadn't worked everything
out...

Carl Greenberg
maddox@ernie.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!ucbernie!maddox

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 1987  00:18 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Deryni

   Merasha seems to only affect those Deryni or "Haldanes" whose
power is available on the conscious level.  If you have read the
Camber books, in Camber the Heretic, those Deryni who have been
"turned off" are unaffected by the drug.  Perhaps it functions by
somehow overloading those senses related to power use, to the point
that it causes a generalized reaction.  Just a guess...

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 1987  00:23 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Deryni vs. Human powers

  Let's not forget the old woman from the short story "Beltane" who
also appears in Deryni Checkmate as the cause of Bronwyn and Kevin's
deaths.  She apparently had powers similar to the Deryni, but was
not one herself.  In the short story, in fact, it makes reference to
her and her husband (who was very much Deryni) teaching one another
of the workings of their respective powers.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 19:38:53 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Deryni Magic - the Color of Power

Sorry I didn't include the previous views on this but I'm in a rush
and didn't feel like cutting it down to the point where inews would
take it.

Having just come back from break and haveing reread some of the
books I give this theory on the color of auras.

Every family has its own color.

If your powers are Deryni then it is passed down the female line.

Morgan and Duncan being healers and having green auras was just a
coincidence.  Sence Dhugal is a healer and has a golden aura it is
shown that green=healer isn't necessarily linked.

If your powers are assumed then either it goes down the male line or
the color is "initialized" in the assumption ritual.  Every Haldane
ritual except Cinhil's involved blood.  Perhaps Camber intenionally
or unintenionally set Cinhils to crimson and the blood kept it that
way.  Also consider the Eye of Rom and Ring of Fire may have some
influence of this trend.

Evidence for Rituals having an influence on your aura:

EVERY Deryni Bishop and Abbot that we have knowledge of has a
silver/white aura.  Not every priest does.  We see in Camber the
Heretic that Dom Emrys was giving out white handfire and then each
individual recipient colored it with their own personal color.

Duncan's aura was was green before he became a bishop - it was white
after.

Camber's was white before but that could be coincidence.  I don't
think white is restricted to bishops.

Examples of apparent heredity through the female line:

Before he became a bishop both Duncan and Morgan had green auras.
They were related Deryniwise through their mothers who were sisters.

In Kelson's power ritual he shows a golden aura before he has fully
assumed his haldane powers. Probably a reaction from his Deryni
potentials. In the Cathedral the next day Jehana's shields are
golden.

Dhugal's aura is not green.  Since the genetics say that his mother
must be deryni and Katheryn told me they still hold then Dhugal's
aura probably shouldn't be green.  Circumstantial but not
contradictory in any way.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 19:54:09 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: the names of the Eleven Kingdoms ( Deryni )

There was a question before I left for break as to what were the
original Eleven Kingdoms and I refered to a poem in Camber of Culdi.
I didn't remember it exactly then and I know I got at least one of
the quotes wrong so here is the correct version for those who don't
have their books handy:

   Now these are the names of the Eleven Kingdoms sung rightly well
     of old:
     Howicce and Llannedd, and fierce Connait;
     mountainous Meara, the Land Beyond the River;
     and Kheldour, the windswept;
     and pastoral Eastmarch;
     Tolan, and Torenth, and myth-ridden Mooryn;
     and lost Caeriesse, which sank beneath the sea;
     and far-reaching Gwynedd, seat of the Haldane Kings.

        Lay of the Lord Llewellyn
        Troubadour to the High-King of Mooryn

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Apr 87 0937-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #128
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 87 0937-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #128
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:

              Films - Part 1 of Star Wars III Synopsis


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Mar 87 12:00:50-EST
From: Chester <EN4.WC-TOPOLSKI@CU20A.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: I shall return

I got this from Anthony A. Datri ie., AD0R@cmcctb
Subject: wars.txt

                STAR WARS III:  FALL OF THE REPUBLIC
                  Story treatment by John L. Flynn

                        Adapted from Part I:
                         "The Adventures of
                          Obi-Wan Kenobi"

                     The Journal of the Whills
                          By George Lucas

   FADE IN:

   MAIN AND CREDIT TITLES SUPERIMPOSED ON THE BLACK OF OUTER SPACE
   -- pinpointed with piercing stars, several moons, and a
   bright-colored nebulae.  As TITLES end --

   The following is related in the story, roll-up format:

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, the Old Republic was crumbling
away, rotting from the corruption and treachery within.
Power-hungry technocrats and wealthy bureaucrats maneuvered and
bribed their way into office, while one ambitious senator plotted
to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy.

Hoping to restore virtue and the remembered glory of the Republic,
the High Council of Senators dispatched the Jedi Knights -
protectorate of justice in the galaxy - on a quest to retrieve the
lost Kaiburr Crystal.  They believed that the small diamond-like
object (which intensified the power of the Force) would unite the
disaffected among the people and would destroy the corruption around
them.

However, within their Council, the evil Senator Palpatine had other
traitorous designs.  Foreseeing that the Crystal would secure his
position as Emperor, Palpatine deceived one of the Jedi Knights and
sent him to acquire the Crystal. . .

                                          DISSOLVE TO:

  September 6, 1983
  FALL OF THE REPUBLIC
                                          Page 2

SCENE 1:  Sigma Vulcanus -- a new, evolving world, that is
          constantly being shook by violent earthquakes and
          volcanic eruptions, and which is devoid of sentient
          life-forms.

  On the molten, volcanic world of Sigma Vulcanus, Anakin Skywalker,
a handsome, swarthy man with a dignified stature, makes an important
discovery.  Using his lightsabre (as the equivalent of a divining
rod), he uncovers the legendary Kaiburr Crystal.  It pulsates with
energy and fills Skywalker with a false sense of power and
importance.  But before he can savor his triumph, and return the
Crystal to Palpatine, he is confronted by his old friend, and fellow
Jedi Knight, Obi-Wan Kenobi and requested to explain his actions.
Anakin refuses, and instantly, the two knights draw their lethal
weapons and become locked in mortal combat.

  Anakin Skywalker, as if controlled by another force, strikes
swiftly in rage, but Obi-Wan Kenobi, the more experienced Jedi,
easily deflects the furious blows of his young opponent.  "Let go of
the Crystal, my friend!  Its power will consume you and turn you
against the Jedi Knights," Kenobi explains.  But the words are
un-heeded by the young Jedi, and the conflict continues.

  Skywalker attacks Obi-Wan again, forcing him to discard his
defensive posture.  Kenobi parries the thrust and sends Anakin's
lightsabre flying out of his hand.  At precisely the same moment, a
cataclysmic earthquake rocks the planet.  The effect is devastating:
fissures, in the earth crack open and spout walls of flame; thunder
and lightning strike violently from the sky; and several volcanos
burst and bubble.

  The young Jedi struggles to regain his lightsabre, but loses his
footing and plunges, still in possession of the Crystal, into a pit
of molten lava.

  Kenobi hurries to the edge of the volcano and looks down; but he
is too late to save his former friend: Skywalker is completely
engulfed in lava!  With tears in his eyes and anguish in his heart,
Obi-Wan picks up Anakin's lightsabre and bids a sad farewell to the
body of his friend.

                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 2:  Jhantor -- is "the bright center of the universe."
          Highly populated and technology-oriented, it is an old
          world of many contrasts:  the huge, domed capital, with
          its elaborate space ports and transportation systems,
          stands adjacent to an ancient castle and temple.

  In another part of the galaxy, on the capital world of Jhantor,
Palpatine enters his senate chambers - followed closely by a brash,
young courtier named Prince Valarium - and assumes his place at the
head of a conference table.  Valarium stands next to him and
whispers in his ear as Palpatine's wizened eyes travel around the
table from man to man.

  Through a terse discussion with his cabinet members and personal
guard, Palpatine reveals that he has bribed or blackmailed most of
the High Council members into voting for him as President, but he is
concerned with three senators who cannot be swayed - Tara Courtney,
Mon Mothma, and Bail Organa.  He further explains that, once they
have been eliminated, he intends to have his troops take over the
Spice and Mineral Mines and blockade the commercial shipping lanes.

  Several of his personal guard nod their approval; however, two
young officers stand and voice their disagreement.  Lieutenant Motti
(bright, young and smartly-dressed) and Commander Tarkin (thin,
hatchet-faced with dark eyes) report that Palpatine's military force
(which he has genetically engineered on the prison planet) are en
route to the Spice Mines and Starports AND that they are ready to
take command of the Starfleet; but they fear the swift retribution
of the Jedi Knights!

  "I think I know the best way to deal with that rabble," Palpatine
announces, standing and walking over to his cabinet.  "It's time
that I demonstrate my absolute power--"

  Taking a large, crystal globe form his cabinet, Palpatine strokes
it with his long, well-manicured fingers, then traces the longitude
and latitude lines.  The object begins to glow, and (with ILM's
help) conjures a series of images from the planet Sigma Vulcanus.
These images combine and crystallize on the SINGLE image of the dead
Anakin Skywalker.

                                          LAP DISSOLVE TO:
SCENE 3:  Sigma Vulcanus

  Four shadowy figures - adorned only in dark, hooded robes (which
conceal their identity) - approach the charred, motionless body of
Anakin Skywalker and lift him from his fiery grave.  Skywalker's
flesh is torn and scabbed, his hair is missing and clumped in
disgusting patches.  Deep scars trace his face, and his body and
limbs are without life.

  They place him on the ground with great reverence and begin to
administer to his injuries in an attempt to bring him back to life.
One robed figure motions to the other: "Bring me the herbs and
remedies."  He actually says nothing but is instantly understood by
the others.  A third figure sprinkles the body with a powder, while
a fourth looks toward the stars and begins to chant in a deep,
rumbling voice.

  In a matter of moments, the lifeless body of Anakin Skywalker
stirs, as we
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 4:  Dagobah (introduced in Episode Five: Empire Strikes Bk)

  Far across the galaxy, on the bog world of Dagobah, Obi-Wan Kenobi
walks through the dense fog and pauses, unhappy and dejected because
he has been forced by circumstances to kill his friend.  He turns to
Yoda, his eight hundred year-old teacher and says: "I have failed,
Master Yoda."

  Yoda gives him a contemptuous stare, then closes his eyes: "No
good is it to teach you when you have not yet learned patience!
Humility!"

  Obi-Wan shakes his head and offers an excuse as his reply: "But
Anakin was my friend.  The Force was with him very strongly, and I
thought that I could be as good a teacher as you were with me."  He
pauses and breathes a deep sigh: "I fear my mistake may have
terrible consequences for the galaxy!"

  The Jedi Master points a crooked finger at him: "Most important
lesson have you learned!  Now a great burden you carry."

  Kenobi squeezes his tear-filled eyes shut and drops his head in
defeat.  But Yoda is immediately at his side to offer comfort and to
reveal that Anakin is not dead.  He further explains the incidents
which have just taken place and foresees a deadly conflict.

  The Jedi Knight is pale and silent for a long moment.  Then,
slowly, he, too, recognizes the entire awesome threat that Palpatine
has brought to the Old Republic.  He thinks of the lives of his
friends (Lady Arcadia Skywalker and Bail Organa) and realizes that
he must leave immediately for Jhantor.
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 5:  Bridge Interior -- a small, saucer-shaped freighter,
          with cramped quarters and a cockpit-like bridge.

On the starship bridge, Captain Antilles - a rugged, mustached
thirty-year old - makes final calculations for his approach to
Jhantor when two tractor beams lock-on and bring his vessel to a
halt.  His short-range scanners reveal two sentry fighters, swooping
into a holding pattern on his port and starboard sides.  The sentry
pilots order him to heave-to and prepare to be boarded.

  "No," he snarls in reply - but quickly reconsiders, when his
protocol droid (C3PO) and his ten-year-old, Correllian cabin boy
remind him that he is out-gunned.  Antilles brings his ship about,
and, in moments, despite his objections, a handful of Palpatine's
troops board the freighter and confiscate his cargo.

  Captain Antilles curses the officer in charge, and explains the
incident is far from over, as we
                                          DISSOLVE TO:

SCENE 6: Jhantor

  When the tragic news of Tara Courtney's assassination reaches her
embassy chambers, Lady Arcadia Skywalker is shocked and hastily
gathers her servants and droids to leave for her homeworld.  She is
a beautiful matron, who is in the last stages of pregnancy, and she
is fearful for her unborn child (or children).

  For the past several weeks, she has watched the order of Jhantor
deteriorate into anarchy under the rule of Palpatine, and she has
made plans to escape, by smuggling her household aboard a spice
freighter.

  But, in the docking bay, Lady Arcadia and her party are suddenly
surrounded by a heavily-armed detachment of troops, activating their
weapons and raising them to firing position.  She turns to the
officer in charge and demands to know what's going on; but he
doesn't know - he is simply following orders.  She resists his
authority, claiming diplomatic immunity, but quickly reconsiders
when the voice of evil echoes through the bay:

  "You mustn't be so hasty, Lady Skywalker!"  PRESIDENT Palpatine
emerges from the shadows, accompanied by Prince Valarium, and
explains that Arcadia, her servants, her droids, and her pilot are
being placed under his protective custody.
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 7:  Sigma Vulcanus -- The Monastic Order of the Sith -- a
          spartan-like retreat, high atop a mountain ridge

  Through a montage of scenes, wherein Anakin Skywalker remains in a
coma, the silent, robed figures minister to his injuries.  Their
task is an awesome one: First, in a most sophisticated furnace, they
forge battle armour and a metal breath-screen (skull-like in
appearance) that will cover his demolished visage.  Next, they
amputate his arms and limbs that no longer function, repair vital
organs, and encase the torso -- forever -- in the dreaded armour and
artificial respirator.  Finally, they restore the severed limbs with
intricate computer circuitry and revive him from his comatose state.
Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, more machine than man!

  Following his repairs, the monk-like figures (still hidden under
their hooded robes) begin to instruct Vader in a dark, evil parody
of Luke's apprenticeship under Yoda.  Darth Vader is taught many
sorceror's skills; he is lectured on the sinister machinations of
the Force and is shown how to construct an even more lethal sabre
using fragments of the shattered Kaiburr Crystal.  But with each new
challenge, and skill accomplished, Vader is doubtful of purpose.  He
knows he is being trained as a power weapon -- and yet, he cannot
conceive why.

  Angered by this confusion, and the fear that his humanity (and
manhood) has been stripped away, Darth Vader strikes out in rage at
one of his hooded teachers only to discover an empty robe.  He is
momentarily terror-stricken and then mystified as, one by one, the
hooded figures vanish -- in a strangely, compelling way -- to reveal
a 3-D holographic image of Palpatine.

  "Yes, yes," Palpatine taunts him, "Only now do you conceive that
is was my force of will that saved you -- that kept you alive -- and
that gave you life again!"

  Darth Vader extends a courtly bow to Palpatine and thanks him for
his life.  But Palpatine is not interested in gratitude.  He is in
need of a powerful weapon and an obedient servant, and he reminds
the former Jedi that he has the power to crush him should he desire.
He then forces Vader to his knees and commands: "Now come to me, my
servant.  I have an important task that will complete your
training!"
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 8:  Jhantor -- Docking-bay and City Exteriors

  Obi-Wan Kenobi's approach and arrival on Jhantor is undetected by
the planetary defenses.  Marshalling his Jedi strength and cunning,
he is able to slip past the sentries in the docking bay, edge by the
troops patrolling the perimeter and reach the home of Lady
Skywalker.  But when he reaches the embassy, the huge chambers are
silent and empty -- and there are no apparent clues as to the Lady's
whereabouts.

  Then, out of the darkness, Captain Antilles appears and confirms
what Kenobi already suspects: The Lady and her party have been
detained as "guests" of Palpatine in the prison cell block.  After
introducing himself (as Captain of a Correllian freighter), Antilles
explains that he came to her embassy, seeking the help of the
Merchanter's Guild (because of the piracy of his goods), and
discovered an R2 unit (Artoo Detoo), that had slipped away during
her capture, cowering in the shadows.  He further reveals that the
R2 unit has monitored her termination notice!

  Realizing that he has little time, Obi-Wan enlists the pilot's
aid; and the two men, accompanied by the stubby, mechanical droid,
hurry toward the cell-block.

[Moderator's Note:  Due to the length of this article, it will be
continued in the following digest.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Apr 87 0954-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #129
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 87 0954-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #129
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:

                   Films - Aliens & Neuromancer &
                           Part 2 of Star Wars III Synopsis

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 87  10:52:08 EST
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: More Aliens

As to which was better, ALIEN or ALIENS, it depends on which you
prefer, suspense or action. I personally thought ALIENS was a much
better movie because the sets were much better, the acting was more
realistic, and the story didn't leave you any time to catch your
breath from one scene to the next. In the novelizations what
starships were using was hyperdrive, or FTL travel. When the crew of
the Nostromo awoke they discovered that they hadn't even reached the
outer populated ring yet and were 10 months away from Earth. When
Ripley blew up the Nostromo she said into the shuttle's recorder "I
should reach the frontier in about six weeks" the frontier meaning
the outer populated ring. When the shuttle malfunctioned (or was it
a malfunction?) and passed right through the core systems (Earth and
the like) it eventually almost ran out of power, reentered normal
space and just drifted until it was found. It was stated that the
maximum anyone had ever survived in hypersleep was 65 years, so
Ripley just made it back in time, being frozen for 57 years. One
thing that still puzzles me, where was the Nostromo coming from with
its cargo of crude oil? They were obvioulsy very far out, since: 1.
It would take them 10 months to get home in hyperdrive 2. They had
not even reached the fringe of human civilization yet 3. No one had
ever seen anything like the derelict spacecraft before So where were
they coming from at the beginning of ALIEN? Any ideas?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 87 19:56:57 EST
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Neuromancer and other movies

Gee, A Neuromancer movie. This is an incredible opportunity for the
movie industry -- the first ever ***GOOD*** SciFi movie derived from
a book. Since the book's style is so, err, "sensory", it would seem
to be a good choice for a movie.

Speaking of movies, I talked briefly with Mark Rogers at Lunacon --
the Samurai Cat movie grinds on, apparently. I'd like to hear
updates if anyone else knows what's happening with it.  ("What a
stud.")

This leads into a tradition SF discussion topic -- what do you want
to see as a movie? I want to see Lord of the Rings, but only if I
can have complete artistic control -- abominations like the
Hanna-Barbra, or silliness like Bakshi's attempt just don't cut it.
At least there is some obvious music for it. Holst's Mars for the
siege of Minas Tirith (when Grond shows up), some Tchaikovsky for
pastoral Shire scenes, etc....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Mar 87 12:00:50-EST
From: Chester <EN4.WC-TOPOLSKI@CU20A.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: I shall return

                STAR WARS III:  FALL OF THE REPUBLIC
                  Story treatment by John L. Flynn

                        Adapted from Part I:
                         "The Adventures of
                          Obi-Wan Kenobi"

                     The Journal of the Whills
                          By George Lucas

[Moderator's Note:  This is part 2 of the synopsis]

                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 9:  Jhantor -- Palpatine's Senate Chambers

  Palpatine orders his guards to bring the captured slaver to his
senate chambers.  While pacing back and forth, he examines the
individual who stands before him in chains and shrewdly considers
his fate: Boba Fett, the lone survivor of a group of commandos the
Jedi defeated on Mandalore during the Clone Wars, is charged with
interstellar slavery and the cold-blooded murder of the Jedi Kane
Starkiller (Refer to Star Wars: Episode II).  Fett's battle-scarred
face sneers at the charges, defending his actions as "righteous
vengeance."

  The evil President stares malevolently at Boba Fett for several
moments, then offers him his freedom (and his confiscated
slavership) in exchange for the extermination of the Jedi Knights.
He also promises him a rich bounty for each Jedi scalp that he
brings back; he wants proof of their deaths -- and no
disintegrations.  Fett grins and replies that he may have difficulty
in locating them since they are scattered throughout the galaxy.
But Palpatine reassures him that the task should be an easy one with
the President's secret weapon.

  Boba Fett dubiously agrees, as his chains are unlocked and he is
escorted from the chambers.

  As the slaver exits, Prince Valarium -- accompanied by a few
personal guards -- announces the arrival of Darth Vader.  Palpatine,
in a quiet whisper, advises Valarium to -- personally -- supervise
Lady Arcadia's execution, then requests that Vader be shown in.

  As the guards stand aside, Darth Vader, tall and threatening in
flowing black robes and armour, enters the chamber and kneels before
his master.  Palpatine smiles, looking at his nightmare creation in
black, and commands him to hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights.
Vader is hesitant and requests permission to visit his wife.  But
Palpatine refuses, telling his servant a vicious lie that she has
been murdered by his comrades, and produces his crystal globe as
evidence.

  Seemingly unmoved, Vader turns to look at a series of images
Palpatine conjures (from the globe).  The images re-create -- in
holographic form -- the treacherous betrayal and murder of Lady
Arcadia by two of Vader's fellow knights.  (Note: since the images
are too brutal for our saga, tight point-of-view camera angles
should convey the details.)  When the last image vanishes, the Dark
Lord, fooled by the false images, stands, ignites his lightsabre and
strikes the crystal globe with monumental anger.  And this rage
completes Vader's journey to the dark side.
                                          LAP DISSOLVE TO:

SCENE 10: Jhantor -- Cell-block

  Meanwhile, deep in the cell-block dungeons, Obi-Wan Kenobi and
Captain Antilles overpower a pair of detention guards and open Lady
Arcadia's cell.  Overjoyed to find her still alive, Obi-Wan embraces
Arcadia warmly, then senses the pains of her motherly contractions.
Antilles interrupts their embrace and reminds them to save their
hellos until they're safely out of the cell-block.  But, as they
leave the cell, Prince Valarium and his personal guards appear and
draw their weapons.  Antilles exchanges fire with the guards, and
Obi-Wan and Arcadia hurry off into the dungeon maze, followed
closely by the Correllian pilot.

  Retreating down a linking corridor, past the cell-block armory,
the two heroes -- with their pregnant fugitive -- decide to stand
firm and fight.  Captain Antilles charges his weapon and blasts away
at the detention guards, while the Jedi Knight concentrates all his
thoughts and feeling on detonating the arsenal and sealing the
dungeon exit.  But, in the midst of his efforts, Kenobi's heightened
senses feel his former friend's RAGE.  The rage, in turn, betrays
Vader's thoughts and President Palpatine's sinister mission (to
Obi-Wan).

  "Whatever you're doing -- do it faster!"  Antilles shouts,
snapping the Jedi out of his daze.  Kenobi immediately refocuses his
energy and, in a matter of moments, the armory explodes, isolating
the guards from them.  However, the noise and excitement are too
much for the Lady Skywalker as she doubles over in pain.  The
Correllian pilot fears she's been hit by flying shrapnel -- but
Kenobi says she's having a baby and advises Antilles take her to the
safety of his freighter.  He further explains that he must leave --
in spite of his desire to help Arcadia -- to warn his fellow knights
of Vader's treachery.
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 11: Jhantor -- Palpatine's Chambers

  Reporting to the President's chambers, Valarium reluctantly tells
of Lady Skywalker's escape.  Palpatine is angered and quickly orders
-- over his private comlink -- a division of troops to search the
city.  He then orders the arrest of Mon Mothma and Bail Organa to
prevent any further interferences in his plans.

  Turning to Valarium, Palpatine's face darkens to an insane fury.
Blinding energy bolts shoot from his finger tips, and the young
Prince is struck down.  "Don't fail me again!"  Palpatine warns, as
Prince Valarium crawls, like a wounded animal, to his side and
gasps, "Never . . ."
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 12: Jhantor -- Docking bay, interior of saucer-shaped
          Correlian freighter

  In the dank, dark hangar-bay, Obi-Wan Kenobi departs in his
starship, and Captain Antilles turns his attention to one of his
most difficult tasks.  With the nervous assistance of C3PO, he first
comforts Lady Skywalker, then helps deliver her children.  The
moment is a joyous, mystic one as Luke and Leia take their 1st
breath and begin crying.  But that special sound of babies crying
brings a detachment of troops down upon them! *

        * Special Note: The troops should be costumed differently
   from the stormtroopers because they are part of Bail Organa's
   personal guard, - but the scene should cause a false moment of
   suspense for Antilles, and the audience.
                                          LAP DISSOLVE TO:

SCENE 13: Jhantor -- Palpatine's Chambers

  Still enraged from Valarium's carelessness, Palpatine plots a
unique political move that will destroy Lady Arcadia's influence
with the Merchanter's Guild AND further cement his power with
commerce and industry.  He first frees a handful of pirates and
bribes them to raid the Spice Mines and Mineral Springs; he then
orders his personal troops to eliminate the pirates and guard -- as
well as regulate -- the shipping lanes.

  But. in the midst of his political maneuvering, Palpatine is
struck down -- paralyzed -- for a few, fleeting moments.  When he
regains his composure, he is deeply disturbed by a nightmare
premonitions, a tremor in the Force which threatens his well being.
He senses Lady Arcadia's true strength -- the birth of a son that
would one day challenge his power.  (But he fails -- in his twisted
wickedness --- to sense the second child!)

  Sending his special group of assassins into Jhantor, Palpatine
orders them to kill every new-born son -- both in the capital city
and the nearby outlands -- because, for the first time in his life,
he is afraid.  (The character should be played much like Herod's in
the New Testament.)

  This brutal action (of Palpatine's) spawns screams of anguish and
unrestricted weeping as the soldiers -- unquestioningly -- carry out
their violent task.  (Note: The horror of the events will be merely
suggested -- and not shown -- to our cameras.)
                                          IMMEDIATE CUT TO:

SCENES 14 TO 18: Numerous Worlds --- Each distinct in its own way

  Across the galaxy, in a terror-filled montage of scenes, wherein
we glimpse numerous worlds and races, the betrayal and execution of
the Jedi Knights is perpetrated.  Darth Vader and a handful of
Palpatine's assassins barge into an exotic saloon and eliminate an
alien-looking Jedi amidst screams and mass hysteria from the
patrons.

  While this is happening, Boba Fett leads a group of stormtroopers
into a docking bay and disintegrates the Knight mending repairs in
his starship.

  And by the time Vader and his cohorts have slipped into the
quarters and strangled a sleeping Jedi, Boba Fett, accompanied by
several trained assassins, chases down and executes a fleeing Jedi
and his family.  However, the abomination of Vader (as well as
Palpatine's sinister plan) is not complete until he destroys the
remaining Jedi Knights as they make a final stand.  The battle is
fearsome, and the Jedi force manages to kill a large number of
troops; but they are vastly outnumbered, and soon, they are
massacred -- to the last man -- by Vader's troops.

  After dismissing Boba Fett and his troops, Darth Vader looks over
the battlefield, at the dead bodies, then takes a deep breath and
says, "Kenobi, I will deal with you myself..."

                *          *          *

  Obi-Wan Kenobi hears Vader's words -- but he is too far in space
to offer him a challenge.  He accelerates his starship, thinking of
his compatriots, and hurries to the planet.  However, arriving
several hours too late, Kenobi is disheartened to find the dead
bodies of his fellow Jedi Knights.  He unhappily builds a funeral
pyre and burns their bodies (in a ceremony befitting a viking hero).

  He then examines the broad, huge footprints in the sand, and
whispers Darth Vader's name.
                                           CUT TO:

SCENE 19 : Jhantor --- The Alderaan Embassy --- Well-guarded, the
          building is deceptive in its heavy fortification.

  With very little military effort, a special detachment of troops
take Captain Antilles, Lady Skywalker and party through the defenses
of the Alderaan Embassy and deliver them to a darkened conference
room.

  Bail Organa, Viceroy and 1st Chairman of the Alderaan System,
enters the room and apologizes to his guests for frightening then
with his personal guard, but he confesses that his caution is not
without warrant: Jhantor was full of spies and assassins and the R2
unit (in her embassy) could have been a clever trap.  He further
explains that his colleagues had put too much trust in the stability
of the Republic, failing to realize that while the body might be
sound, the head was growing diseased and feeble, and THEY WERE ALL
DEAD!  There is deep bitterness in his voice, and genuine concern
for Lady Arcadia.

  Antilles and Arcadia accept his apology and anxiously insist upon
diplomatic sanctuary.  But, as news of Palpatine's takeover of the
Merchanter's Guild and the galactic shipping lanes reaches the
Embassy, the outlook is grim!  Organa curses loudly, suddenly
realizing that there was nothing he could do to prevent the fall of
the Republic and guarantee their safety.  Pragmatically, he prays
for their salvation by the Jedi Knights (unaware of their
extinction), then orders the immediate evacuation of the Embassy.
                                           CUT TO:

SCENE 20: Jhantor --- Palpatine's Chambers

  With grim anticipation, Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith,
kneels at his ruler's feet and reports his success.  Palpatine is
pleased that his servant has eliminated all but one of the Jedi
Knights and smiles -- with evil delight -- at Valerium and the other
members of his cabinet.  He then asks the fate of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Vader is hesitant and replies that he and Kenobi have a private
matter to settle!  But that answer is not satisfactory enough.

  Palpatine pauses in his interrogation and boasts of his ambitious
plans (of galactic conquest) to Vader and the others that are
assembled: his few traitorous lieutenants have betrayed their
superiors and taken control of the Starfleet; his troops have
successfully routed marauding pirates and have begun to regulate
commerce and industry along the shipping lanes; and his political
arrangements with greedy landlords, sadistic gangsters, and
power-hungry governors have made his power absolute.  He explains
(that he has told them this to illustrate) that his control is
predicated on his personnel following orders, even at the cost of
their own lives!

  Pausing a second time, Palpatine dismisses Valarium, and orders
him to report to the control center.  The young prince agrees and
bows slightly, a gesture Palpatine acknowledges with a perfunctory
salute.  Then he spins and strides from the room, leaving the Dark
Lord looking from man to man in confused silence.  As Valarium steps
into the corridor, he is grabbed and assassinated by Palpatine's
guards.

  Darth Vader then nods his understanding as the evil President
reminds: "The fate of those who fail me is DEATH!"

[Moderator's Note:  The plot synopsis concludes in the very next
digest]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Apr 87 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #130
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 87 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #130
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:

           Films - Conclusion of Star Wars III Synopsis,
           Miscellaneous - Conventions (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Mar 87 12:00:50-EST
From: Chester <EN4.WC-TOPOLSKI@CU20A.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: I shall return



                STAR WARS III:  FALL OF THE REPUBLIC
                  Story treatment by John L. Flynn

                        Adapted from Part I:
                         "The Adventures of
                          Obi-Wan Kenobi"

                     The Journal of the Whills
                          By George Lucas

[Moderator's Note:  This concludes the plot synopsis printed in the
last two digests.]

                                           IMMEDIATE CUT TO:

SCENE 21: Jhantor --- Docking-bay

  In the docking-bay, the massive evacuation of the Alderaan Embassy
is taking place under tight security.  The humming of elevators and
the moving of heavy equipment echo through the large chamber as the
bustling flight crews make ready their freighters and the pilots
perform final checkouts.  Bail Organa, with the "help" of See
Threepio, supervises his men loading supplies and ammunition, while
Artoo Detoo aids the Lady Arcadia with her two infants.  Captain
Antilles is suspiciously nowhere to be found.

  Momentarily, the defensive sensors sound alarm -- but they are
quickly silenced when the unknown danger is identified as Obi-Wan
Kenobi's approaching starship.  Once in the docking-bay, Kenobi
emerges from the craft and informs Bail Organa and his anxious
troops that the Jedi Knights have all been destroyed by the
treachery of President Palpatine and the hand of Darth Vader.  A
heart-felt murmur sweeps over the docking-bay, like a swell in a
heavy sea.  The last Jedi Knight's second piece of news is even more
grim: the Starfleet, under the command of Palpatine's forces, have
formed a perimeter blockade, and their purpose is to prevent Organa
from leaving and force him to surrender his ground troops.

  Bail Organa curses quietly to himself, recognizing the futility of
further conflict.  The great leader -- Viceroy and Senator of the
Alderaan system -- has fought many battles: he has fought along side
Kenobi and the other Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars, and has
helped to eliminate piracy and slavery -- with the crusading Lady
Arcadia -- in the formation of the Merchanter's Guild.  But this
time, he realizes that he is outmatched!  Organa acquires a comlink
from one of his men and begins to broadcast surrender orders to his
troops.

  When, suddenly, dozens of Merchanter's Guild members, of all
species and life-forms, follow Captain Antilles into the Docking-bay
and assemble around Bail Organa.  The group of freighter pilots and
navigators is an impressive one: There are representatives from Mon
Calamari, Bespin, Sullest, Correllia, Mandalore, Kessel, and
Alderaan.  Some are wearing fatigues, loaded with weapons and tools,
while others are adorned in their native wear.

  "Some of them still have their ships -- and the others will fly
anything we can put into the air," Antilles reports, and the morale
of Organa's men is revived again.  "And if this action makes us
pirates and outlaws -- in the eyes of Palpatine's new empire -- then
we're with you one hundred percent!"

  As the two groups of men (and aliens) hurry off, cheering the
success of their united departure, Obi-Wan Kenobi approaches the
Lady Arcadia with his painful secret.  He reluctantly admits that
his pride (in the Force) may have betrayed Anakin to Palpatine, and
that the man she once loved was now a hideous monster, more machine
than man.  She is, at first, taken aback, chilled by his statement;
then, with tears in her eyes, she confesses that she, too, felt him
slipping away -- many months before -- and was unable to reach him
either.

  Obi-Wan Kenobi and Lady Skywalker exchange a tender embrace, and
recognizing the potential danger they they both faced, they arrange
to separate the children with the hope that they would be united one
day as brother and sister.  Kenobi will take Luke to live with his
brother Owen on Tatooine, while Arcadia will arrange for Leia to
live as daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.  This way the
children would have a better chance of survival should one (or the
other) be discovered by Vader!
                                          CUT TO:

SCENE 22: Bridge interior --- Flagship of the Starfleet* in the
          Jhantor Star System

  Darth Vader emerges from his private shuttle and strides past a
handful of troops in formation.  His presence is awesome and
threatening as he approaches the starship captain.  Commander Tarkin
bows from the neck down and advises his superior that they were
ready to annihilate anyone who attempts to run the blockade.  Tarkin
is over confident in his appraisal of the situation, and that
reflects in his conversation with the Dark Lord.

  * Special Note: The Starfleet -- at this moment in galactic
history -- is composed largely of heavy cruisers, destroyers, and
spacecraft carriers, with a full complement of fighters.  There are
no Star Destroyers, Death Stars, or TIE fighters because the
Republic's Starfleet was used primarily for exploration and
occasional law enforcement.  However, under the ruthless command of
Darth Vader, it is a formidable opponent.

Organa and his diplomatic party captured alive (if possible) so that
they would face the embarrassment of a public tribunal.  And the
Dark Lord adds that he wants Kenobi (!), his voice conveying the
image of a dreadful fate (that would be inflicted) if his commands
were not executed.

  Tarkin reluctantly salutes and backs away from him, angered that
their positions were not reversed.  He barks several commands, and
his troops spring to battle stations.
                                           DISSOLVE TO:

SCENES 23 TO 27:  Jhantor Star System --- Various types of
                  spacecraft against a backdrop of stars and a
                  brightly coloured nebulae

  Alarms sound full alert as the handful of freighters, transport
ships, blockade runners, luxury cruisers and one-man fighters
approach the armada of the Starfleet.  The ships attempt - first --
to cross the blockade with the diplomatic colors and symbols of
Alderaan; but, when that fails, they energize their main deflector
shields and prepare to fight their way through.  (Captain Antilles
and Obi-Wan Kenobi hold their groups up as the first wave attacks.)

  Keeping a tight formation, dozens of transport ships and luxury
cruisers move in close to the Starfleet armada -- and begin blasting
away, while fifty-or-so small freighters and one-man fighters race
across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they engage
the small pursuit fighters.  Their plan is one of strategic genius:
by flying in close, the rebel group emasculates the fire-power,
which is ineffective at close-range, of the larger ships.
Additionally, the erratic and hot-dog flying of the Merchanter's
Guild members confuse and place the military pilots at a momentary
disadvantage!  And that disadvantage is exploited: Antilles and
Kenobi launch the second wave of ships and wait tensely to join the
conflict, or make their escape.

  However, the heroic efforts (of the rebel flight crews) are
brought to an abrupt halt by the armada as the heavy cruisers fire
broadsides at point-blank range, disregarding their own safety.  The
Starfleet's audacious and dangerous move seems to turn the tide of
battle: small one-man fighters scatter, luxury cruisers reverse
their engines, and freighters drop their additional weapons and
accelerate away.  But, as the proton beams take their toll,
last-ditch, suicide runs are made by the damaged rebel craft: a
cargo freighter -- loaded with weapons and cargo -- heads on a
collision course for one of the Destroyers and explodes, while a
transport ship -- mortally wounded in combat -- limps at a heavy
cruiser and detonates its nuclear engines, destroying his opponent
with him.  The balance of the small craft punch through holes and
race for open space!

  Captain Antilles, piloting the saucer-shaped freighter (with Bail
Organa, Lady Arcadia, and party aboard), dives into the chaos, then
steers through the battle.  Once clear, he engages his ship's
hyperdrive and soars away at light speed.  Several pursuit craft
follow -- but their weapons are ineffectual against his ship's
deflector shields and their ion-propelled engines are no match for
his.

  In another sector of the battle, Obi-Wan Kenobi's starship swoops
past an engagement and accelerates into space, pursued by Darth
Vader's flagship.  Kenobi executes a series of stunning maneuvers in
an effort to lose the Heavy Cruiser, but he quickly realizes that it
will not be easy to shake.  Marshalling the Force around him, the
last Jedi prepares for a death-defying stunt.  He then guides his
starship into the nebulae; and with his deflector shields (and the
Force) at full intensity, Kenobi flies through the core of the
exploding star.

  Darth Vader stands silently on the Bridge of his starship, gazing
in disbelief at the brightly-colored nebulae.  He demands the
scanning sensors probe the area for any sign of the Jedi Knight --
but the results are negative!  Gravely disappointed, the Dark Lord
orders the Flagship returned to the fleet and walks away, sensing
that they would meet again.

  The victory is an incomplete one for Palpatine's forces.  His
starfleet has destroyed or captured nearly three dozen vehicles --
but scattered throughout the galaxy were rebelous pirates and
outlaws that he would one day have to deal with!
                                           LAP DISSOLVE TO:

SCENES 28 TO 30:  EPILOGUE ---

  Jhantor --- EMPEROR Palpatine, with Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of
the Sith, at his side, smiles malevolently and plots his next move
as his assembled troops chant: "Long Live Palpatine!  Long Live the
Empire!!"

  Alderaan --- Lady Arcadia Skywalker -- now a common servant in the
Organa household -- sings her daughter to sleep under the watchful
sensors of Artoo Detoo and See Threepio, while Bail Organa awards
Captain Antilles with a commission in his service.

  Tatooine --- Obi-Wan Kenobi, the last Jedi Knight, delivers the
infant boy to his brother, Owen Lars, then disappears into the
desert wasteland, awaiting the day when Luke would claim the light
sabre of his father (from him) and become a man.
                                          FADE OUT.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 87 00:11:45 GMT
From: sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF cons [and Boskone]

From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (The Wizard)
>I read books.  I also go to the movies and I watch a little
>television.  When I go to a con, I would like *all* of that.  Most
>of the people I go with feel the same way.  There's just something
>intangible about going to a place with 5000 of your closest
>friends.  Here in NH, there isn't much to do so cons are big
>events.

Same here.  But if those numbers are causing problems, something has
to change.

>Maybe Boskone should farm out the events they no longer wish to
>handle.  If they don't want to do a video program, let someone else
>do it.  The point is that Boskone has come to mean more to a lot of
>people.  With them scaling back their scope, there won't be a
>regional be-all end-all con in this area.  It looks like the next
>one around here will be Noreascon [Worldcon '89].

The problem is not that Boskone doesn't want to be responsible for
these events.  The problem is that all of these events combined are
drawing a crowd too large to control.  If Boskone got someone else
to take the film program off their hands, it would still be running,
and still drawing a certain number of fans that might not have
attended the con if a film program did not exist at all.  Once
they'd decided they had to cut out something, what could they do?
If they cut the Science track, or the Writers track (or whatever
they have down there), they wouldn't be cutting down on the numbers
as significantly as they would by cutting the film program and other
media events - because media draws big crowds.  And if they cut
several of the non-media tracks, the con would then be a media con,
and that's not what the Boskone committee wanted.

>My belief is that NESFA could make Boskone a joint effort with
>other groups so that they could get their help and still keep the
>best con in the Northeast growing.  NESFA is complaining that
>Boskone is too big for them.  Well, I, for one, would rather see
>Boskone continue in the path that it began to take than see it
>diminished.  I can see a lot of 'in memoriam' t-shirts [Veteran of
>Boskone Glory Years].

But they CAN'T get a HOTEL for that many people - or CONTROL that
many people once they've arrived.  Get it?

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 13:34:22 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

The following is a summary of NESFA's nine-point plan for dealing
with Boskone XXV (1988).  It is extracted from INSTANT MESSAGE #416,
dated March 15, 1987 (which had no indications that this should not
be reprinted or discussed):

1) There will be a stated limit of 1,5000-2,000 people at this
   convention. The size limit is determined by the facilites.
      1a) SF professionals (writers, artists, editors) will be
          allowed to buy memberships after the limit has been
          reached.
      1b) Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational.  The
          committee has the right to return membership checks.
            In the case of Boskone 25, the following groups have
          an automatic invitation:
             Boskone LIfe Members
             Committee, Staff, and Gophers from Recent Boskones
             Program Participants, Artists, and Hucksters from
               Recent Boskones
             NESFA Members
             Attendees from 3 of the Last 5 Boskones
             People Who Have Purchased Art at Any of the Last 3
               Boskones
             Others Known to the Committee, or Members of
               Established SF Clubs

2) Boskone will not be publicized in any way at all, with the
   exception of being listed in semi-prozines and through Instant
   Message.  Boskone flyers will not be sent to other conventions [I
   think this may have been changed later -ecl], and Boskone will
   not be listed in prozines.  Boskone will not have a general
   mailing in the fall.  Between now and the end of April, a letter
   will go to every person who purchased a membership to Boskone 24,
   announcing that Boskone 25 will be a smaller, "private"
   convention for the "serious" science fiction fan.

3) Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open parties.
      3a) Boskone will not promote parties in any way, except to
          provide a bulletin board where open parties may be listed.
          Boskone will not discourage parties, but will see that
          they close at 2am, that alcohol is not served at open
          parties, and that parties creating noise complaints are
          warned to quiter or be closed.

4) Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will
   be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after
   which open parties will be asked to close.

5) All weapons will be banned.

6) Costumes will be discouraged.

7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
   ...  We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs,
   gophers.

8) We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a
   membership.  No transfers are allowed.

9) Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and
   people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges
   as well.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Apr 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #131
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Apr 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #131
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:

                Books - Alexander (4 msgs) & Brust &
                        Eddings (2 msgs) & Harrison & 
                        Kurtz & Panshin & Wells & Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 04:12:46 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries (Lloyd Alexander)

rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:
>I have a good question for all of the fantasy critics/aficionados
>out there.  I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black
>Cauldron series ) has written any other fantasy works. I would also
>like the name of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are
>not listed here.

   The Prydain series (written by Lloyd Alexander) consists of

The Book of Three
The Black Cauldron
The Castle of Llyr
Taran Wanderer
The High King

in that order.  Alexander has also written a companion volume to the
above, recounting Coll's rescue of Hen Wen.  I forget the title.  In
addition, he has a rather charming short novel, The Wizard in the
Tree, and a trilogy of indifferent quality, two of whose books are
The Kestrel and The Beggar Queen.  The Prydain books are by far his
best, particularly The Black Cauldron and The High King.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 02:15:49 GMT
From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries

rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:

Hurm, both good series. Haven't read either in a while.  Enjoyed
both immensely when I was a "juvenile".

>I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series )
>has written any other fantasy works.

The other ones are, in order:

1) The Book of Three

2) >The Black Cauldron

3) The Princess of Llyr

4) >Taran Wanderer

5) >The High King

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 17:34:20 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries

rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:
>I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series )
>has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name of
>the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed here.
>
>The ones I remember are
>
>The Black Cauldron Taran Wanderer The High King

First of all, his name is Lloyd Alexander, not Alexander Lloyd...

The other book which I can remember the name of off-hand is The
Horned King.  I can't seem to remember the other one, but it either
has the giant cat on the cover, or the sorceror type confronting
Taran (one of these is Taran Wanderer).  I hate it when I can see
the cover, but can't remember the title.  I liked them when I read
them some time ago.  Good Welsh legends.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 17:42:23 GMT
From: udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries (Lloyd Alexander)

mjlarsen@phoenix.UUCP (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:
>The Book of Three

Yeah, that's it.  I always want to call it The Horned King,
well...because that's mostly what it's about.

>The Black Cauldron
>The Castle of Llyr

Bingo.  I always forget the name of that one (Llyr).

>Taran Wanderer
>The High King

>...  The Prydain books are by far his best, particularly The Black
>Cauldron and The High King.

I agree with you there.  The High King was very good.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 18:34:03 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, Brokedown Palace

Judy Anderson writes:
>when I was reading Brokedown Palace I was under the impression that
>the events in B.P. occurred long before the events in Jhereg/etc.
>It was clear that the universes were the same, and that Faerie was
>Dragaera, ...  It did seem to me that there weren't any other
>nearby human establishments known to the residents, which is what
>led me to believe it was far in the past when there were fewer
>people.

I thought it was clear that Brokedown Palace took place in the
westernmost of the human lands, and most everything to the east was
human-occupied.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 19:42:14 GMT
From: xanth!revell@rutgers.edu (James R Revell Jr)
Subject: Belgariad: romm for improvements

Bravo!
   I read the Belgariad not to long ago and found the whole thing
just as predictable, despite friends who appeared to be entirely
captivated.  Eddings did seem very accomplished at picking many
lines of detail to include with most any thought, but enough is
enough! Let the reader do some thinking himself! The books are far
to drawn out for what the entail, thus they take far to long to read
(most any reader could complete sections by himself).
   Let's hope that Eddings has written his next offering such that
it instills some anticipation, and lets the chew on some unwritten
thoughts!

It's from the unexpected barriers that we learn and grow, otherwise,
we'd all be walking algorithms.

James R Revell Jr

Old Dominion University
Department of Computer Science
Norfolk, Virginia  23508
(804)-484-0555
UUCP:   revell@xanth.UUCP
        ...!seismo!harvard!xanth!revell
CSNET:  revell@odu.CSNET
ARPA:   revell%xanth.cs.odu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 09:54:19 GMT
From: crew@decwrl.DEC.COM (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: eddings (SPOILER)

bkfeir@watnot.UUCP (Bryan Feir) writes:
>And as for the idea that nothing new was said, did you really read
>the prolog to the fifth of the Belgariad?  Seeing the whole thing
>from the other side of the fence was interesting.  I have yet to
>meet a person who was not at least mildly shocked by that....

The prolog was great.  However, it's too bad he didn't follow
through on it.  After reading the first 4 books, my reaction to the
prolog of the 5th book was basically, ``Finally!  Can it actually be
that the evil guys are not so one-dimensional after all??  Now we
get to find out what's *really* going on.''  Everything was so
predictable up to that point.  There just had to be something weird
behind the scenes.  I was all set up for this wonderful revelation
that it was actually Aldur or the Orb that was evil and twisted...
Or, perhaps, now that Garion was the most powerful person in the
known universe, he'd be corrupted by it...

But no.  Eddings could have had a really powerful story in that 5th
book, something to make the innocence of the first 4 books all the
more disturbing.  But he blew it.

Having EVERYONE married off at the end didn't help, either.

As for Eddings, not having seen anything else by him, I'd have to
classify him the same way I'd classify Spielberg (in the movie
realm): wonderful at detail work & execution (in this case, the
general mechanics of writing itself), creating neat little scenes
that work very well; terrible in overall scope & vision -- trite,
predictable, etc...

But perhaps I'm being a bit premature.  If _The Guardians of the
West_ (or whatever the new series is to be called) turns out to be
radically different, I may end up eating my words...

Roger
Crew@sushi.stanford.edu
everywhere.else!decwrl!crew

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 06:34:03 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Bill, the Galactic Hero

dub@pur-phy.UUCP writes:
> ( Incredibly minor spoilers ahead, so don't worry too much.)
>
> I just finished reading BILL, THE GALATIC HERO by Harry Harrison.
> I originally picked up the book on a recommendation from this
> network that it was like the father to Hitchhiker's Guide to the
> Galaxy.

Aack.  Hardly.  As you discovered.  Some of the same ideas but they
sure are taken in a different direction.

> I'm not much of a literature expert but I'd say that Bill, the
> Galactic Hero is a satire on war.

Also a satire of Heinlein's Starship Troopers, a book which I
recommend to everyone (not everyone will agree with it or
necessarily enjoy it, but it certainly gets people thinking).

> And it works shockingly well.  The last chapter is the "nail in
> the coffin" and at "the end" I was stunned and quite a bit
> disgusted at Mr. Harrison for what he did to his character.

Gee, I thought it fit in very well with the rest of the story.  Not
to say I enjoyed it.  In fact I didn't enjoy it terribly; I don't
like dystopias (same reason I've read 1984 only once or maybe
twice).

What I feel fits the mood of BtGH best is the role-playing game
Paranoia.  Not an exact match, but it comes fairly close in my
estimation.  (I don't care much for Paranoia either, I've played it
only once.)

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
{ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 20:00:45 GMT
From: msudoc!beach@rutgers.edu (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Deryni vs. Human powers

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU>
>Let's not forget the old woman from the short story "Beltane" who
>also appears in Deryni Checkmate as the cause of Bronwyn and
>Kevin's deaths.  She apparently had powers similar to the Deryni,
>but was not one herself.  In the short story, in fact, it makes
>reference to her and her husband (who was very much Deryni)
>teaching one another of the workings of their respective powers.

I've always gotten the impression from what was said in Deryni
Checkmate that Bethane was indeed Deryni.  However she didn't
undergo anything approaching formal training.  Her techniques for
using her power were probably learned from her mother and passed
down as folklore (especially since deryniness is passed down the
female line ) Bethane may well be descended from Deryni blocked by
Tavis O'Neill with Revan's help during the early persecutions.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 18:17:58 GMT
From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: "redshirts", "spearchuckers", etc.

On the subject of redshirts (minor characters whose essential
function is to be killed in the line of duty/plot): there is a good
discussion of this basic topic by the protagonist in Alexi Panshin's
excellent SF novel "Rite of Passage" (they're mentioned as "spear
carriers").  For this reason, and for quite a few others, I
recommend this novel to those who haven't encountered it.

Personal trivia item: I now consider this book to be my personal
"Hardest to keep a copy of this in my library" award-winner.  I've
owned no less than 5 copies over the past 15 or so years, and they
ALWAYS seem to vanish.  If I loan this book to someone, it just
never seems to come back.  The only other book that approaches "Rite
of Passage" in this respect is the Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the
Rings" (which otherwise has absolutely NOTHING in common with "Rite
of Passage").

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 00:31:58 GMT
From: 6085419@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (James Kawashima)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust

>BTW, as an aside about post-holocaust: I've never read _The Time
>Machine_, though I vaguely remember watching the movie.  Does that
>count as post-holocaust in that the narrator goes into the future
>past the holocaust?  Or was there supposedly a holocaust at all?

If you're talking about the H.G. Wells novel, I would not count it
as post-holocaust (although Wells did write a number of "valid"
post-holocaust novels in which civilization was destroyed by
conventional warfare - these include _The_Shape _of_Things_to_Come_,
_Things_to_Come_, and _War_in_the_Air_.).

_The_Time_Machine_ is, among other things, a bit of social allegory
resulting from Wells's hatred of capitalism.  He has the Morlocks,
who descended from the working class, enslave and feed off of the
Elois, who descended from the aristocracy.  No holocaust is alluded
to, only a gradual decay of a society which Wells felt was already
too unhealthy and in need of change.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 19:45:24 GMT
From: dg_rtp!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light / Creatures of Light and Darkness

Spoilers of 'Creatures of Light and Darkness' and 'Lord of Light'

> Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
>>> The most interesting of all, however, was the Steel General[...]
>>But again, he was no god.
> Who says? He looked just as much a god to me as Anubis or Osiris.

But then again, Anubis nor Osiris weren't "real" gods either.
However, I agree that the book obscures the distinction between
"real" gods and "mere mortals" with tremendous power.  Intentionally
so, I suppose.  This is yet another feature CoLaD has in common with
LoL.

>>Obscure compulsions, like [...some examples intended to show that
>>the motivation was not all that obscure...]
> They still seemed obscure to me.

Now, I will grant that we learn a lot less about the motivations of
the characters in CoLaD than those in LoL.  But not all *that* much
less.  The motiviations of Niritri, for example, are religious
fanaticism, pure and simple, and that is a motivation I don't really
understand at all.  Or Yamma, for example.  His motivations are
palmed off as being deeply psychological effects of his first
reincarnation.  But how this predisposes him to do the things he
does is quite obscure.  Further, the example given here of a more
understandable motivation:

> Now in LoL, The gods were interested in partying, having neat
> toys, and only secondarily interested in power (except for
> Ganesha, who was also obscurely compelled) except as much as
> necessary to assure continued good times.

... is not very convincing to me.  Sure, they wanted good times.  But
why were they suppressing 'mortal' technology?  What did that really
have to do with a good old deific good time (other than the sadistic
joy of excersizing power over others, which is rejected in CoLaD as
being an obscure motivation)?  As Sam says to Yamma, (more or less)
"I ask you why you are oppressing a world, and you answer me with
poetic crap."  That is, Sam can't figure out what the gods are after
either (except for petty excersize of power).

> In CoLaD, they were after a subtle sort of galactic dominance or
> similar intangibles, unless Anubis really enjoyed partying with
> and ruling a bunch of corpses.

Oh, now I see.  Kali's wedding day, with the gods and demigods
compelled to watch Sam and what's-his/her-name, the thief (I think)
be killed and mutilated by tigers.  Now *there*s an understandable
party.  A real good time.  No zombies here, folks!

> In any case, I think both books make a single point. To be a god
> requires nothing more than a particular sense of ruthlessness
> (even with good intentions) and a lot of power, from whatever
> source. Nothing else.

I quite agree.  But I go quite a bit further, and repeat my claim
that there isn't really an element from CoLaD that doesn't appear at
all in LoL, and vice versa.  The primary difference between the two
was the scale of the story and the remoteness of the timeframe.

Well, that's what I think, anyhow.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Apr 87 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #132
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Apr 87 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #132
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Boskone (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 87  10:58:50 EST
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working
model for next year's con:

Statement of purpose: "The primary purpose of Boskone is to be a
science fiction convention of 2000 attendees or less, aimed at the
mature science fiction fan."

"...how can this be done? By instituting the following mandates for
future Boskones:"

1. There will be a stated limit of 1500-2000 people at this
convention. The size limit is determined by the facilities.

  1b. Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. ...people in
      the following groups will have an automatic invitation:

  - Boskone Life Members
  - Committee, Staff, and Gophers from recent Boskones
  - Program Participants, Hucksters, and Artists from recent Boskones
  - NESFA members
  - Attendees from 3 of the last 5 Boskones
  - Art Buyers from any of the last 3 Boskones
  - others known to the Committee
  - members of established SF clubs

2. Boskone will not be publicized in any way at all...a letter will
go to [every Boskone 24 member] announcing that Boskone 25 will be a
smaller, 'private' convention for the 'serious' science fiction fan
{{quotation marks NESFA's, not mine - ceo}}

3. Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open parties.

  One of our biggest problems has been that we've been discovered by
a number of people who have no real interest in SF or fandom, but
just want a weekend long party (in the mundane frat party sense of
the word).

  3a. Boskone will not promote open parties in any way, except to
provide a bulletin board where open parties may be listed. Boskone
will not discourage parties, but will see that they close at 2 am,
that alcohol is not served at open parties, and that parties
creating noise complaints are warned to quiet down or be closed.

4. Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will
be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after
which open parties will be asked to close.

5. All weapons will be banned.

6. Costumes will be discouraged.

7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal
   guardian.

  This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is
unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. However,
a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who seem to view
Boskone as a place to get away from parental supervision.

8. We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a
   membership.

9. Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and
people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges as
well.

The above was from a NESFA newsletter. Comments, anyone? (My only
comment at this time is <retch>.)

Chip Olson (Castell@UMass.Bitnet).

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 18:26:48 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working
> model for next year's con:
>
> 1. There will be a stated limit of 1500-2000 people at this
> convention. The size limit is determined by the facilities.

This sounds reasonable, and can, I suspect be accomplished in large
part by not selling memberships at the con.  Simply not selling
memberships at the con will discourage a lot of the less desirable
element.  People likely to disrupt something won't plan to go to it
three or four months in advance, unless they have a real vendetta
against NESFA, in which case nothing short of catching them doing
something criminal and having them arrested will stop them.

> 3. Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open
>    parties.
>
>   One of our biggest problems has been that we've been discovered
> by a number of people who have no real interest in SF or fandom,
> but just want a weekend long party (in the mundane frat party
> sense of the word).

This is, regrettably a problem.  Many fans like to party, and most
fans I know are inclined to try to share their fannish activities
with mundane friends.  It is easy to see how taking them to a con
and partying can look like the most painless way to get someone
interested in fandom.  Unfortunately, this seems to be backfiring at
Boskone.

Also, over the last few years several traditional large open parties
have sprung up.  I have nothing against parties, or any of the
groups sponsoring them, but some of the really large one, like
Boxboro Fandom, have clearly gotten out of hand.

> 5. All weapons will be banned.
> 6. Costumes will be discouraged.

The weapons ban is already in effect, and while I have been strongly
opposed to it in past years, I reluctantly have to agree with it at
present.  There were a lot of people at this Boskone that I wouldn't
have wanted to be around me carrying a weapon.  They managed to be
obnoxious enough in crowds just with their own attached anatomy
(feet, elbows, etc), without giving them a chance to impale passers
by with a sword scabbard, etc.  Where some of them are concerned,
its probably just as well *I* didn't have a weapon either.

The bit about discouraging costumes disappoints me.  To me costumes
have always been an important part of setting the atmosphere at a
con.  I suppose this is being proposed as a concession to hotel
attitudes, since I don't see that discouraging costumes is going to
significantly reduce the number of attendees interested in media SF,
or the amount of potential vandalism and disorder.  I don't think
there's much overlap between the three groups.

The trouble with all this is that I don't think it really addresses
getting rid of the people causing the problems.  As I understand the
problems at this year's Boskone, a lot of them came from people who
were not even convention members, but just came in off the street
for the open parties.  Cutting down on the open parties will help
with this, but keeping these people out of the hotel is a problem.
The hotel can't very well keep stopping people in the halls and
demanding to see their room keys or proof of legitimate business in
the hotel if they aren't wearing a con badge.  As a legitimate,
paying guest of the hotel, this happening to me a couple of times
would convince me that that hotel didn't want any more of my
business.

About the only thing I can think of which might be helpful with
respect to this problem is holding the convention somewhere outside
the downtown Boston area for a few years until the locals forget
about it.  In my opinion this has several assets -- the hotel space
will probably be cheaper, it should reduce or eliminate the
exhorbitant parking fees, at least for paying hotel guests, and
reduce the amount of downtown traffic you have to fight getting
there on Friday.  Admittedly, holding a con somewhere where there
are no convenient restaurants besides the hotel ones is a nuisance,
but it can be lived with.  I, for one, would prefer to see NESFA
adopt this approach, rather than instituting draconian measures
designed to reduce attendance by offending a large cross-section of
local fandom.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@LL-XN.ARPA
         kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 02:29:32 GMT
From: encore!paradis@rutgers.edu (Jim Paradis)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

castell@UMass.BITNET writes:
>  1b. Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. ...people in
>  the following groups will have an automatic invitation:
        [ list of groups ]

Well, so much for encouraging mundanes and neos to join the world of
fandom... when I went to my first Boskone 3 years ago, being not
very well-read in SF, I felt almost painfully out of place.
However, thanks to the willingness of the people around to welcome
"new blood", I became quite comfortable in short order.  Now NESFA
is turning 180 degrees and making exclusivity an official policy.
Is fandom as big as it needs to get?  I don't think so.  I feel
fortunate that I just barely squeak by to be an "invitee" to the
next Boskone (having gone to the last three in a row).  I'd hate to
have been a neo at Boskone XXIV and then be told that he's not
wanted!

>2. Boskone will not be publicized in any way at all

Doesn't have to be.  It's legend already.  Its existence is
well-known, and the only things that remain to be known are the
particulars (date, place, etc).  These will leak out thru the
grapevine...

>4. Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will
>be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after
>which open parties will be asked to close.

Just curious, how forcefully will a party be "asked" to close?  If
we're not bothering anyone, is Boskone still going to bother us?

>6. Costumes will be discouraged.

HOW are costumes going to be discouraged?  If I wear one, will I be
asked to change by every con staffer I meet?  Will I have to sit in
the back of the room for every panel discussion?  Will I have to use
the service entrance?  Or is the discouragement going to come from
the simple fact that the "New, Improved" Boskone is going to be so
full of grim, serious, MATURE attendees that I'll be made to feel
like a pariah?

>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal
>   guardian.
>  This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is
>unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. However,
>a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who seem to view
>Boskone as a place to get away from parental supervision.

Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm
REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm).  You're damn
right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause no
problems.  Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by
people under 18 than by those over 18??!!  Or is this just a
convenient restriction to make because it's politically correct?
Put it another way: If it can be shown that the vast majority of
troublemakers at prvious cons were male, would NESFA then consider a
policy of restricting men from attending?

>9. Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and
>people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges
>as well.

I'll give credit where it's due... this is actually a good idea.  I
was pretty surprised at previous Boskones about the laxness of
badge-checking.  A good idea as long as it's done reasonably
discreetly (i.e. no gestapo tactics)

One closing comment/flame retardant: Yes, I know that Boskone is
NESFA's event and they can do what they damn well please with it.
I'm not saying they CAN'T.  I'm just saying I don't like it.

One other question: My experience in the con scene is limited to
three Boskones.  Should NESFA do what they intend to do, are there
any OTHER cons of like character to previous Boskones (Boskone
Classic, anyone? :-) )?

(What's wrong with holding Boskone in Worcester? 1/2 :-) )

Jim Paradis
Encore Computer Corp.
257 Cedar Hill St.
Marlboro MA 01752
(617) 460-0500
{linus|necntc|ihnp4|decvax|talcott}!encore!paradis

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 14:49:12 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU (Tom Galloway) writes:
>But if your definition isn't one of the two above, what does make a
>con fun for you, and one you want to come back to. How about trying
>to be constructive instead of critical for a bit?

Okay Tom, I'll bite.

I've had the advantage of running conventions, so I've been able to
implement my ideas (not all, but many).  Still, I can't attend my
cons so here are a few ideas.

Programming:
   Too often cons run a small number of programming items in large
rooms, and run the same old panels everyone's seen at a million
other cons.  So you get the results- big emptyish rooms.  There are
two solutions to this

    1. Program in smaller rooms.  50 people in a room that
       seats 60 is a better "feel" and better for interaction
       than that same group in a ballroom.
    2. Put some REAL EFFORT into original programming ideas.
       Go OUTSIDE the sf community for panelists.  Use
       academia, industry, government, etc. for panelists
       then mix the people from different groups up.  Do
       panels on non-sf topics that may be of general interest.
This of course means putting a lot of work into programming, but
hey, nobody said running a con is easy (so where's the Hugo for it?)

Films:
   Have them, on as big a screen and the best sound system you can
manage.  Don't show films on video if you can possibly avoid it.
There is no comparison between even a Star Trek episode on the big
and small screens.

Video:
   Use video where nothing else will do.  Show some variety.  If
single episodes of relatively unknown series are shown, the program
book (or something) should run down the basic series concept.

Costuming:
   Remember that the Costume competition and show is for the benefit
of the general attendees, not the costume makers.  You don't want to
alienate costumers of course, but at the same time, their needs
should not get in the way of the enjoyment of those watching.

Dealers:
   Variety is very important.  Again remember who the con is run
for...it aint the dealers.

Art Show:
   Have one.  Keep your cut small, you didn't paint that.  If
possible, post the order pieces will be auctioned in (or auction in
posted "batches") so attendees don't have to sit through three hours
of auction to bid on the one piece they are interested in.

Shows, etc:
   I like them.  Keep them short, keep them funny, remember that few
fen can act/sing very well so bring the audience in on the joke.  If
you can't make scene changes smoothly, make them rough.  And the
best set we ever had was a large piece of paper that said "Obviously
western bar".  Saved lots of effort.

The Hotel:
   Let them know what to expect from fen, don't sugar coat it (well,
not too much).  Let the attendees know what you expect of them.  If
the fans stray over the lines, cooperate with hotel security.  A
little cooperation on your part will go a long way in they seeing
things your way later on.

Parties:
   An open con suite, certainly.  We never had (or saw the need for
) beer, and other than a complaint or two, had no problems.  Those
who wanted bought their own.

None of this should be considered a rip at NESFA or Boskone.
Although I don't agree with everything they are doing next year,
they are dealing in a consistent way with a problem not of their
making.  Remember that cons are groups of people with similar ideas
and interests getting together to have a good time.  The costume
police won't be out to rip that cape from your shoulders, close your
door and put a big sign on it that says "OPEN PARTY, Knock and we'll
let you in" takes care of the close the door hour.  Hopefully
Boskone can weather the problems of the past year and continue.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Apr 87 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #133
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Apr 87 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #133
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Atwood (3 msgs) & Gibson &
                         L'Engle (2 msgs) & 
                         Short Stories (3 msgs) &
                         World Distributers & 
                         Requests (3 msgs)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 13:47:19 GMT
From: osiris!jcp@rutgers.edu (Jolly C. Pancakes)
Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
> Shoshana Green:
>>This is not a flame, I think, but a *very* strong disagreement. "The
>>Handmaid's Tale" is *most* *certainly* science fiction! Absolutely!
> I've tried and failed to come up with a reasonable definition of
> science fiction which excludes "The Handmaiden's Tale".  Still,
> although I made the

Please, the title of the book is "The Handmaid's Tale". There is a
difference between "maid" and "maiden".

jcpatilla
{seismo,allegra}!mimsy!aplcen!osiris!jcp

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 22:52:22 GMT
From: watdragon!hwarkentyne@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale

Dani Zweig writes:
>[part of review deleted]
>Comparisons between this book and 1984 are inevitable, and
>justified.  It seems clear that many of the parallels are
>deliberate.  But this book is less fantastic than 1984, more
>believable, more banal.

I can't agree with this statement.  While the Handmaid's Tale is not
as "fantastic" as 1984, banal is hardly a word to describe it.
Throughout the novel, we are aware of the climate of fear that the
new Republic of Gilead has created and how people stifle their
thoughts and emotions to go along with the state approved line.  The
experiences of Offred in her duties as a handmaid are far from
banal.

>This isn't a science fiction book.  People who pick it up expecting
>one will probably be disappointed.  But a jaded science fiction
>author, in racing past the 'setup' to the action, would not give us
>as close and as powerful a view of this society, the potential for
>which may be clearly seen in our own.  On the other hand, a jaded
>author of science fiction would probably have known better than to
>compromise the impact and integrity of the book by ending it with
>one of those tired 'scientists discussing the manuscript centuries
>later' epilogues.

A jaded science fiction author would leave a cliff hanger ending
that would force everyone to buy the sequel.  Again, I disagree with
your opinion.  Perhaps I have not read enough science fiction to
find the method of ending the story "tired".  To me, detailing the
escape of Offred would have proved pointless to the novel.

>I recommend reading this book.  And if it hasn't captured you after
>the first fifty pages or so, it won't.

Often in discussing works of science fiction, people put "spoiler"
warnings in their postings to warn people who haven't read some book
that there will be some information revealed in the posting that
will spoil the enjoyment of reading the work.  As a recommendation
of Handmaid's Tale, let me say that the entire plot could be
revealed to you and that would not lessen in any way the enjoyment
of reading it.  I think Dani is trying to softpedal his opinions to
avoid offending hard core "fans" by recommending a work of
"literature".

Ken Warkentyne

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 15:01:54 GMT
From: bacall!kurtzman@rutgers.edu (Stephen Kurtzman)
Subject: Re: The Handmaiden's Tale

I, too, thought the ending to "The Handmaid's Tale" ruined an
otherwise good book; perhaps ruined is too harsh, but it certainly
did ruin the story's impact. It is the ending that places the book
into the science fiction realm because it contains a lame discussion
about the manuscript by some future academicians.

If the ending were omitted, it would not be science fiction. It is
social fiction. I think Shoshanna Green confuses science fiction and
social fiction. There are some great SF books, such as "Brave New
World" and "1984" that are also great social fiction. To my mind,
science fiction must contain at least some tangential connection to
science. Science fiction uses things such as space, space aliens,
technology, or scientific mishaps to stimulate, move, or supplement
the plot. This does not occur in "The Handmaid's Tale", except at
the very end.  "The Handmaid's Tale" does use the bible, the current
fundamentalist popularity, and human nature to move the plot. (There
is even a section of the book that makes Fred and his buddies look
like kin to Jim Bakker.)

Perhaps Margaret Atwood was being shrewd by including the ending. By
it she insured that the SF readers would adopt the book. But by it
she also marred an otherwise good novel.

SJK

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 87 14:34 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Misconception about William Gibson

From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
>A collection of all of Gibson's short fiction (20) stories has just
>been published, called _Burning_Chrome_. I believe he also has one
>other novel besides _Neuromancer_, but I don't know what it is.
>And that's *all*. He's a very new writer. I thought _Neuromancer_
>was awesome (almost as awesome as A.A.Attanasio's _Radix_ - you
>should read it: Bantam-Spectra).

Just to set the record straight, Gibson's first published story
appeared in almost exactly ten years ago ("Fragments of a Hologram
Rose" in Unearth Magazine).  He might not be a prolific writer, but
he's certainly not "very new."

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 87 11:12:30 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Madeleine L'Engle
Cc: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

> In each one, the children are so totally astounded that strange
> things are happening to them that you'd think that nothing strange
> had ever happened to them before. Neither one refers to the
> previous book(s) at all.

Do I find myself disagreeing with Jayembee?  Whoa!  But I do believe
that there were some slight back references.  Weren't the Father and
Charles Wallace working on a model of a tesseract at the beginning
of "A Wind in the Door"?  Granted, that's only a slight reference.
I also believe that when the Cherubim (Progenoskes?) was going to
transport them to another place, Meg asked if it was tessering.

I don't think the children really acted like "nothing strange had
ever happened to them before".  The mother and the twins did,
because not much remarkable did happen to them.  And the school
principal in "A Wind in the Door" wanted to think that it was all a
bad dream because nothing strange had ever happened to him before
either.

I agree that the three stories were not strongly coupled, but I
think they were inter-related a little bit (beyond the obviously
necessary character development, although that should count for
something anyway).

It is a true trilogy, as opposed to something like "The Lord of the
Rings" which is a single story in three volumes.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 87 19:38:14 EDT
From: ST701135%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Madeline l'Engel

>Has anyone out there ever noted that small (people-aliens-magical
>beings) tend to be viewed as childlike (I'm generalizing a bit - I
>know) and' less intelligent as a rule?

You bet.  For a good example read the "fuzzy" series by H. Beam
Piper:

   Little Fuzzy
   Fuzzy Sapiens
   Fuzzies and Other People

They are (in my opinion) very good books that make this very point.

Michael McClennen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 17:08:55 PST
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Short Stories

Someone asked about the short story and mentioned that a lot of
discussion has gone into some of the major epics.  I would like to
add my 2,000,000 quatloos to the proceedings.

I have been a major sink for short stories over the years.  I
started reading anthologies back in my Junior High library and have
not stopped (although I did find a library with some older girls in
it).  In the meantime I have read my share of novels and epics.
These include Foundation, Dune, LotR, the Unbeliever, Well of Souls,
ad nauseum.  I have also rubbed my eyes over a number of short story
series, like Niven's Known Space, which I dearly loved.  But through
all these books, short stories still warm my heart, and here are
some of my reasons.

Short stories are short.  They are designed to be read in one
sitting (at least according to Poe they are).  Thus, when you are
under a lot of time constraints from work or school, you can still
scarf down a short story before bed.  You can't do this with a
novella and many is the time I started to read only a chapter of a
book and ended up finishing it at 4am.  Plus, the short story
generally has a strong theme, something many novels somehow miss.
How many epics have good strong themes?  Many tend to be a jumble of
themes and some of them don't even bother.  This can be good since
many adventure stories would only be tied down by a theme, but I
still prefer a nicely stated point.

The short story is, as we all must know, a very precise art form;
similar to painting with only a small brush.  All the work of making
up a universe and characters must be done quickly and succinctly,
with no room for meandering.  As such, the short story will continue
to draw the attention of readers everywhere, both in and out of sf
and mainstream fiction.

To this end, allow me to nominate some of my favorite collections of
short stories.  Terry Carr's Best SF of the Year has published many
excellent pieces of short fiction, including "Amanda and the Alien,"
and "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreak."  Issac Asimov's Fantasy
and SF series (both of them) have had many good stories (I attribute
this to Charles Waugh and MH Greenberg) in them.  My favorite ones
from the Fantasy series were Witches, Spells, and Cosmic Knights,
while my favorites from the SF series was Tin Stars.

Keep reading short SF.  It's what started many a SF junkie.

pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 04:32:57 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Short Stories

I also love short stories, for exactly the reasons given in the
earlier article. Two excellent sources of short stories are the
"Dangerous Visions" anthologies (I know someone who's actually seen
the completed manuscript for "The Last Dangerous Visions"), and
"Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine." IAsfm has become much
better under Gardner Dozois' editorship.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 20:47:55 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Short Stories

I, too, am a lover of science fiction short stories.  I find that
the ones that stick in my mind over the years mostly seem to have a
sort of mythic quality about them.  Herein follow my nominations for
all time favorites.  Additions to the list welcomed.

The Green Hills of Earth        Robert Heinlein [arguably the best
                                 S.F. short story ever written]
Requiem                         Robert Heinlein
Nightfall                       Isaac Asimov
Rescue Party                    Arthur C. Clarke
The Star                        Arthur C. Clarke
In Hiding                       William Shiras
No Woman Born                   C. L. Moore
Vintage Season                  Henry Kuttner
The Man Who Lost The Sea        Theodore Sturgeon [number five]
He Who Shapes                   Roger Zelazny
Neutron Star                    Larry Niven
Brave to be a King              Poul Anderson
When it Changed                 Joanna Russ
The Barbarian                   Joanna Russ
Ender's Game                    Orson Scott Card [number four]
Winter's King                   Ursula K. LeGuin [arguably second
                                  best]
Semley's Necklace               Ursula K. LeGuin
The Day Before the Revolution   Ursula K. LeGuin
Pots                            C. J. Cherryh    [number three]

Just to forestall nit-picking: I know that both "Ender's Game" and
"He Who Shapes" appeared as expanded book length works; I am talking
about the original, gem-like, short stories.  Semley's Necklace
appeared as the introduction to Rocannon's World, but was later
published as a stand alone short story.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 00:18:19 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu
Subject: WORLD DISTRIBUTERS (Manchester)

Can anyone tell me if the publishers WORLD DISTRIBUTERS (Manchester)
England still exists?

If they are still kicking, could someone please E-mail or post their
address?

I am looking for a series of books they published in the mid 1960s
under the series titles "THUNDERBIRDS" and "LADY PENELOPE".

I know for sure of two in these series', the first is "LOST WORLD",
in the Thunderbirds series, and the second is "COOL FOR DANGER", in
the Lady Penelope series.

These books are (were) available in Hardcover, and were at about the
reading level of the Hardy Boys or Tom Swift books.

Could someone please post or Email if they have ANY info on these
series'?

Thanks in advance.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 18:51:38 GMT
From: rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch)
Subject: A Voyage To Arcturus

Several years ago I read an excellent book called "A Voyage To
Arcturus" I think it was by Lindsey?  I am not sure who the author
is and would appreciate any help from net land.  The story begins
with a seance and the charactors end up chasing or following each
other through several different worlds which were pretty "strange"
to say the least.  One of these worlds caused one of the characters
to sprout an extra arm from his chest and I believe it was called a
mang?  Anyway, any help would be appreciated as I want to re-locate
this book.  Also, has this author written any other books that are
worth reading?  Thanks in advance!

Bob Pietkivitch
{ihnp4!}ihlpa!rael

------------------------------

Date: 01 Apr 87 16:48:39 EST (Wed)
From: mberkman@cc5.bbn.com
Subject: OH the embarrassment

If that subject line starts you laughing, then you probably remember
the story I am searching for.  The plot completely escapes me, but
the great part of the story was the apologies.  A human was
interacting with a member of a species that felt it necessary to
offer the most outlandish apologies for the slightest error.  They
ran along the lines of:

Oh the embarrassment.  I <committed generic stupid error>.  I am
shamed and <punish myself in generic excessive manner.> I die.  Oh
the embarrassment.  My body decays and <causes a plague or other
disaster.> All die.  Oh the embarrassment.

I would really like to find this story.  I'm sure it appeared in a
magazine, probably Analog, probably late 79 or early 80, since I
associate it with a particular dorm room I only inhabited that year.
I've looked through my collection but can't find it.  Any pointers
would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 16:12:11 GMT
From: princeton!mjg@rutgers.edu (Mordecai Golin)
Subject: Story Request - The Handmaid's Tale

   Discussing Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tail" reminded me of
some feminist Science Fiction I read years ago.  Specifically there
is a story whose title I can't remember but would like to recommend
to some friends.  The plot concerns a woman from our time whose mind
travels to a future where there are no men.  The body she inhabits
(at least part of the time) belongs to another woman whose sole
purpose in this new order is to carry babies.  It is possible, but
not very likely, that the author was Joanna Russ.
   I'd be grateful if anyone remembering this story would send
e-mail to

princeton!mjg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Apr 87 1030-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #134
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Apr 87 1030-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #134
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Boskone (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 17:15:54 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes:
>castell@UMass.BITNET writes:
>>  1b. Attendance in Boskone will be semi-invitational. ...people
>>      in the following groups will have an automatic invitation: ...
>Well, so much for encouraging mundanes and neos to join the world
>of fandom... when I went to my first Boskone 3 years ago, being
>not very well-read in SF, I felt almost painfully out of place.
>However, thanks to the willingness of the people around to welcome
>"new blood", I became quite comfortable in short order.  Now NESFA
>is turning 180 degrees and making exclusivity an official policy.

This is indeed the strongest argument against the restrictions.  But
what exactly do you suggest as an alternative?  All the people who
want to come were getting to be too many even for the largest hotel
in Boston.  With a probable reduction to a facility 1/3 the size,
how can an open door policy possibly continue?  Since restrictions
seem necessary, why shouldn't NESFA pick groups that seem likely to
be desireable rather than hold a lottery or something?

Maybe it is not best for neos and mundanes to come in through the
biggest cons such as Worldcons or big Boskones.  NESFA does run two
small open relaxacons a year, Codclave and Lexicon, and there are
lots of smaller cons around.

>>4. Boskone will have a "closing time," after which time there will
>>be no official convention functions (con suite, films) and after
>>which open parties will be asked to close.
>Just curious, how forcefully will a party be "asked" to close?  If
>we're not bothering anyone, is Boskone still going to bother us?

Probably not.  Anyway, all you have to do is close your door and you
are not an open party anymore.

>>6. Costumes will be discouraged.
>HOW are costumes going to be discouraged?

This has not really been decided yet but for sure there are not
going to be any hall costume prizes.  I would think that, on
average, just saying that cosumtes are discouraged would discourage
them somewhat.

>>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal
>>guardian.
>>  This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it
>>is unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems.
>>However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who
>>seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental
>>supervision.
>Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm
>REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm).  You're
>damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause
>no problems.  Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by
>people under 18 than by those over 18??!!  Or is this just a
>convenient restriction to

Well, one class of problems was energetic groups of people roaming
the halls, banging on doors occasionally, and doing similar minor
obstreperous things, not just till 2AM or 4AM, but in some cases
there were large roving packs still going strong at 6 or 7 AM.  Even
if you are not bothered by the noise, this sort of thing (24-hour
high energy level) was a prime reason Boskone was thrown out of the
Sheraton.  It is not interested in getting thrown out of its next
hotel.

>make because it's politically correct?  Put it another way: If it
>can

I don't really understand what you mean by "politically".

>be shown that the vast majority of troublemakers at prvious cons
>were male, would NESFA then consider a policy of restricting men
>from attending?

I am sure the vast majority of troublemakers were male but they were
probably a smaller percentage of the total male attendance than they
were of the under 18 attendance.

I agree with you for the most part that this is a bad policy.
However, numerous exceptions will be made.  For example, anyone
working on Boskone XXIV, from gopher on up, will be exempt from the
age restriction.  I don't think it is going to be applied to people
under 18 who are Boskone life members or members of NESFA (at least
not members whose class of membership requires a vote of approval),
etc.  The word "legal" has been dropped from the policy so some
people under 18 could be let in with an adult willing to take
responsbility for them.  As a matter of fact, it is not actualy
clear that anyone is going to be kept out by this policy.  Even so,
I disagree with it and the only reason, being a NESFA member, that I
didn't fight harder against it was that it was strongly argued that
it would sound good to hotels (and it would be difficult to have a
Boskone at all without a hotel) and in any case, these are one year
restrictions to be re-evaluated next year.

>One closing comment/flame retardant: Yes, I know that Boskone is
>NESFA's event and they can do what they damn well please with it.
>I'm not saying they CAN'T.  I'm just saying I don't like it.

It's not true that NESFA can do as it likes with Boskone.  It can not
let it go on as before because there are no facilities that will
take it that way.  Although there has been a lot of sentiment in
NESFA for slowing or halting the growth of Boskone, it took losing
ALL the big hotels in Boston coupled with an obvious increase in
those attending who seem to view Boskone as a weekend of alcoholic
parties away from parental supvervision to cause any real steps,
such as these, to be taken.

>One other question: My experience in the con scene is limited to
>three Boskones.  Should NESFA do what they intend to do, are there
>any OTHER cons of like character to previous Boskones (Boskone
>Classic, anyone? :-) )?

I don't think there is a similar cons in Boston.  However, you are
welcome to try Lunacon (NY), Balticon (MD), Disclave (DC/MD), etc.

>(What's wrong with holding Boskone in Worcester? 1/2 :-) )

Nothing.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 02:40:26 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes some material which makes me quite unhappy.
It adresses some things which I have had no control over, and I am
being penalized though no fault of my own.  I happen to be one of
the unfortunate people who do not meet the standards of what they
think is deserving of admittance to Boskone.  I come close, but, as
we all know, that only counts in horse shoes hand grenades and
nuclear weapons.

>Attendees from 3 of the Last 5 Boskones
[will be admitted]

I've been at the last two, because I only knew about Boskone about
two and a half years ago.  Also, I went the first year unofficially
with someone else's membership because that person couldn't go.
Strike one.

>People Who Have Purchased Art at Any of the Last 3 Boskones
[will be admitted]

Someone outbid me on the only piece of artwork that I had wanted.
Basically, I lost because neither of us wanted to start bidding too
far out of our price ranges.  We flipped a coin, which seemed the
semi-logical thing to do.  I guess being rich is the real
requirement here.  Next time that I go (presuming I'm allowed, and
also presuming that I *want* to go), I'll think of ransoming off
someone's children so I can afford something. Strike two.

>Others Known to the Committee, or Members of Established
>SF Clubs

I just *might* be able to get in based on this (I know someone who
ran the consuite), but again, I'm not all that certain I want to go
to a place where I might not be welcomed.  Ball one?

>Between now and the end of April, a letter will go to every person
>who purchased a membership to Boskone 24, announcing that Boskone
>25 will be a smaller, "private" convention for the "serious"
>science fiction fan.

I will eagerly await this...

>3) Boskone policy will be that no alcohol be served at open parties.
>   3a) Boskone will not promote parties in any way, except to
>   provide a bulletin board where open parties may be listed.
>   Boskone will not discourage parties, but will see that they
>   close at 2am,

I hosted a small private party on the Friday of the con.  I thought
that things went pretty well.  The party broke up before midnight
because of the movie goings-on at the con.  My group was "under
control."  I even went to the HASA party, which went quite well, for
an open party.  Like mine, it was run by responsible people, and no
minors were served.  The innocent are the ones to suffer here.

>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
>... We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers.

Why wasn't this ever instituted?  I don't think I would have
initiated a convention *without* this to begin with!  Stupid move on
NESFA's part.

>8) We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a
>membership. No transfers are allowed.

Read as: Anyone who doesn't like it, can leave right now.  We won't
take no guff.

>9)Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas, and
>people holding private parties will be encouraged to check badges
>as well.

What gets me is that this all seems like logical things to do.  Why
wasn't it done in the past?  I guess it takes a real crisis to make
Boskone officials think.  It makes me wonder how the con has
survived for so long without some of these guidelines being
enforced.

I was looking forward to the gripe session when I was there this
last time, and I didn't find it.  I got stuck in the lobby during
one of the late night alarm sessions.  I was upset with the whole
thing (though now I look back and sort of chuckle), and I was not
even given a place to voice my complaints/comments/suggestions.

Aside from that, just what is "Serious Science Fiction" anyway?  Is
it the type of fiction that only deals with such things as
faster-than- light travel, high technology, and future societal
expansion in a serious manner?  Is it science fiction that is to be
only one type of entertainment (print, it would appear) only?  Is it
science fiction created by a selected bunch of authors?  If so, who
selects the authors, and further, what if there's an author that
doesn't belong to the "list" or even of the genre thought to be
"serious?"  Is he to be banned?  This smacks of Sci-Fi
fundamentalism to me, folks.

Has anyone thought to ask the membership of NESFA?  How about a
general poll of people who have belonged for at least N years that
are going to remain in NESFA for a while?  What do *they* think?????
I realize that the convention is run by a select bunch of people,
and what they can handle is what they can handle.  Sure, they run
the con, but have they really thought of anyone but themselves in
the matter?  How about being honest with the NESFA public?  I'm not
a lifetime member, but I was considering doing so until quite
recently.

I understand that there was a lot of property damage done to the
hotel.  It's a shame that it happened.  I kept a watchful eye out
for anything happening, but nothing occurred around me.  I just
think the con committee is going about solving the problem the wrong
way.  If it's the way things are going to be, I don't think I want
to belong to such a bunch of effete snobs.

Sour grapes?  Maybe...
Jon

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 20:09:03 GMT
From: GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being made
to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it used to
be".  (I'll be addressing the comments people have been making about
Boskone and the restrictions in another message).

So I'm curious; what's your definition of a "fun con"? To some
people, it involves carrying around fake weapons (re: the [to me at
least] hysterically stupid "End The Toy Ray Gun Ban" flyer passed
around at Boskone). To others, it involves drinking large quantities
of alcohol and playing with the fire extinguishers. I think most
people will agree that this is *not* what makes it fun for them.
Well, this is the kind of thing that Boskone is trying to eliminate.

But if your definition isn't one of the two above, what does make a
con fun for you, and one you want to come back to. How about trying
to be constructive instead of critical for a bit?

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 17:48:45 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

GALLOWAY@VAXA.ISI.EDU.UUCP writes:
>A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being
>made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it
>used to be".  So I'm curious; what's your definition of a "fun
>con"? To some people, it...
>But if your definition isn't one of the two above, what does make a
>con fun for you, and one you want to come back to. How about trying
>to be constructive instead of critical for a bit?

My definition of a fun con, in part, is one that I can attend.  I
don't drink, wear costumes, carry firearms fake or real, do damage
to hotels, or any of the the other things that, for good or bad
Boskone has decided it doesn't like.  But since Boskone has decided
it doesn't want me to attend, I would hope that another con, one
that doesn't have a secret society attitude, one that tries to
attract new blood rather than being incestuous, will take its place,
and those who still want to go to Boskone can enjoy themselves
without being bothered by the rest of us.  I would hope that no
self-respecting writer of science fiction, except perhaps an
up-and-comer, would support a closed door policy like this.
    Yes, this is critical and not constructive.  But how can I be
constructive when I'm being told I won't be admitted?  What makes a
con one I want to come back to?  One I visited in the first place.
I could list the different things I like to see and hear and read
and watch and do at cons, but it won't help me to try to instigate
some change if I'm not around to appreciate its effects.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 02:03:39 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

Dan, I'm sorry to have to do this under this subject; I'd planned to
incorporate what I'm about to say into a much longer article on
Boskone and the way people are reacting to the changes. But your
article was a reasonably considerate and well-written comment about
how you don't like the "secret society" and "incestuous" attitudes
that you perceive the committee having.  The only problem is that
you've got it all wrong; at least the motivation behind the
decisions made for next year.

Everybody, please read this; The committee did not decide to cut
next year's Boskone from 4200 people to 1500-2000 people. The fact
that the Sheraton does not want the con back, and that the only two
other hotels in Boston that can physically hold a greater than 2000
person convention will not allow the con to be held there. The
Boskone committee, due to decisions that they *had no control over*
have NO choice but to cut attendance by 2200-2700 people; a factor
of between 50 and 60% roughly.

Given this fact of having to cut attendance this drastically (and
once again, this was not something that was done by the committee),
can you or anyone come up with a way of encouraging new people to
come that makes any sense when the committee has to somehow get over
2000 people who were there last year not to show up next year?

And given that they have to reduce attendance so drastically, can
anyone offer any reason why they shouldn't attempt to reduce it to
those people who are coming because it's a science fiction
convention and not because it's a party?

To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by
over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the Boskone
committee.  They have *no* choice in this.

tyg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Apr 87 1116-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #135
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Apr 87 1116-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #135
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:

            Books - Chalker (2 msgs) & Cooper (5 msgs) &
                    Lindsay (3 msgs) & Wolfe & 
                    Post Holocaust (2 msgs) & Ace Specials

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 87 14:35:15 EST
From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: chalker

Well, I've never been a major fan of Chalker, he has always seemed
to be something of a hack writer, of the kind Spinrad would
eliminate from the face of the Earth without a second thought
(according to his articles).

But his books usually are entertaining, so I continue to buy them,
hoping he'll return to the quality shown by, say, Midnight at the
Well of Souls (but not the later Well books), or And the Devil Will
Drag You Under, both of which were very good, if not great.

His latest though, Pirates of the Thunder, is very good. He actually
has some interesting characters, moderately original gadgetry, and a
real plot, more than you can say for some of his other recent
series.  It is the second in a perhaps interminable series, and I
didn't like the first very much, and the odds are the others in the
series will not be too good (given the general series track record),
but you never know.

Saying too much about the book would be a spoiler, since it is a
mystery-style "what is going on here?" kind of series, but there are
classic Chalker elements, from body-changing to self-aware
computers....

If you like Chalker there is no reason not to go out and buy this
one, and if you have been disappointed by his last spate of series,
this one may still satisfy you.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 19:29:52 GMT
From: xanth!revell@rutgers.edu (James R Revell Jr)
Subject: Re: Chalker  (was "Information (details and Magic))

Even in newer book "The Messiah Choice" there is the almost standard
sex-change. It does seem to have been overdone a bit at this point.
Sorta makes one think he's got a hangup on the matter....

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 04:39:17 GMT
From: faline!b2@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer

rhr@osupyr.UUCP writes:
> The other author I am wondering about one a Newberry award (I
> think) for one of her books in "The Dark is Rising" series. Her
> first name is Susan.  Also, the names of the books in the series
> would be appreciated. The only title I can remember is "Silver on
> the Tree", which was the last book of the series.

   Susan Cooper:

   The Dark is Rising
   Greenwitch
   The Grey King
   Silver on the Tree

Collier Books has just published the series in a nice paperback
edition.  I just bought them to re-read after at least a 10 year
hiatus.  They are quite fine.  And, unlike a lot of other titles
coming out now, each book is only $2.95.  Is anyone else tired of
paying $3.50 or even $3.95 for 250 page efforts?  Can anyone point
me to the NJ chapter of F&SF Anonymous?

b2
b2@bellcore.com
{backbone}!bellcore!b2

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 18:15:59 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer

b2@faline.UUCP writes:
>   Susan Cooper:

>   The Dark is Rising
>   Greenwitch
>   The Grey King
>   Silver on the Tree

The first book of this series is "Over Sea, Under Stone," which I
didn't like as much as the others when I read it as a child, but
which I liked much more when I reread it a couple of years ago. It
introduces the three children and their uncle, Merriman Lyon.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 22:17:13 GMT
From: srt@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>b2@faline.UUCP writes:
>>Susan Cooper:
>
>>The Dark is Rising
>>Greenwitch
>>The Grey King
>>Silver on the Tree
>
>The first book of this series is "Over Sea, Under Stone,"..

Hmm.  The current release has "The Dark is Rising" as the first
book.  Are you sure "Over Sea, Under Stone" isn't the English title
for one of the other books?  Though it does sound from the title
like it might explain the events leading up to "Greenwitch".

Incidentally, for people interested in these books, they are being
released as mainstream and so are probably filed in the "wrong"
section in your local bookstore.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  srt@ucla
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 16:56:44 GMT
From: eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer

You've left off the first book, "Oversea, Understone", in which the
three children (I've forgotten their names) who appear again in
Greenwitch, together with their "Uncle Merry" locate the Grail of
King Arthur, one of the weapons of the Light.

These may be "Children's Books", but I loved them.  I didn't read
them until college, and they are my favorite fantasy books ever.
I'm even trying to get some artists to make the six signs from "The
Dark is Rising" as a Wedding present for a friend of mine.  I've got
someone to do the gold and the forged iron, however I'm still trying
to find artists to do the cast bronze, cut crystal, carved rowan,
and carved flint.  Well, I've got a while until the wedding yet....
:-)

Chris Russell
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Fone:  (301)454-8886/454-8950

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 22:20:53 GMT
From: lssabel@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Laura Susanne Sabel)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries - One answer

>The Dark is Rising
>Greenwitch
>The Grey King
>Silver on the Tree

There's another one which comes before those four.  It's called
_Over Sea, Under Stone_. It introduces the four (three?)  British
children who show up later on in _Greenwitch_.  Does anyone know if
Susan Cooper ever wrote anything besides these five books?  I
thought they were all wonderful.

Laura Sabel

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 00:29:03 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus

rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch) writes:
>Several years ago I read an excellent book called "A Voyage To
>Arcturus" I think it was by Lindsey?  I am not sure who the author
>is and would appreciate any help from net land.  The story begins
>with a seance and the charactors end up chasing or following each
>other through several different worlds which were pretty "strange"
>to say the least.  One of these worlds caused one of the charactors
>to sprout an extra arm from his chest and I believe it was called a
>mang?  Anyway, any help would be appreciated as I want to re-locate
>this book.  Also, has this author written any other books that are
>worth reading?  Thanks in advance!

   A_Voyage_to_Arcturus is by David Lindsay.  As far as I know, it
is the only thing he ever wrote.  It concerns a spiritual odyssey on
the planet Tormance of the star Arcturus.  The extra arm to which
you allude is called a magn, and is one of several different extra
limbs sported by Arcturans.  Lindsay once remarked that, although
his book would never achieve real popularity, it would always appeal
strongly to a few people, and that he might hope for one reader a
year for as long as the English language survived.  I believe the
book is still in print, although the copy I have in front of me was
printed over ten years ago.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 05:16:51 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Voyage to Arcturas

I think the author was David Lindsay.  I have heard several times he
did write one more book, but I have never been able to find it (or
even people who have read Voyage).  All I can remember offhand was
that the title was something like a woman's name.  The real problem
was that after such a good start, the bloke had to be so grossly
inconsiderate as to die young.  Forgive my lack of mythology, but I
alway felt many of the names should ring a bell.  Isn't Shapur from
some middle eastern religion (Zoroastrians?)  I have forgotten most
of the other names, but were any of them significant?

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 10:21:29 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: A Voyage to Arcturus

From:   ihlpa!rael      (Bob Pietkivitch)
> Several years ago I read an excellent book called "A Voyage To
> Arcturus" I think it was by Lindsey?  I am not sure who the author
> is and would appreciate any help from net land. ... Also, has this
> author written any other books that are worth reading?  Thanks in
> advance!

A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS was written by David Lindsay. I don't know if
any of his other work is "worth reading" (I haven't even read AVTA,
let alone anything else of his), but here are some other titles that
fall within the sf/fantasy genre (from R. Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION
AND FANTASY LITERATURE):

THE HAUNTED WOMAN  (1922)
SPHINX             (1923)
ADVENTURES OF MONSIEUR DE MAILLY  (1926)  [aka A BLADE FOR SALE]
DEVIL'S TOR        (1932)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 17:03:12 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Severian's Mother and _Castle of the Otter_

In response to an earlier posting of mine:

In _Castle of the Otter_, a 1982 volume concerning _The Book of the
New Sun_, Wolfe does indeed state that Holy Katherine, the patron of
the guild of torturers (note that this in not capitalized, as it is
not the proper name of the Order), is Saint Catherine of Alexandria.
Catherine was tried and put to death for criticizing the treatment
of Christians at the hands of Maxentius, a Roman Emperor. (Time
frame: fourth century.)  She was placed on the wheel, but it broke
down, and she was then decapitated. She forgave her executioner.

That chapter of _Castle_ goes on to describe the evolution of the
story "The Feast of Saint Catherine", which Wolfe originally saw as
a novella, into the tetralogy it is today.

I found _Castle_ to be a delightful and fascinating book. It
contains a great deal of information on the _BoTNS_, including a
glossary of _Shadow of the Torturer_, discussions of futuristic
cavalry, advice to beginning writers, a description of Wolfe's (then
current, only recently abdicated) position as a senior editor of
_Plant Engineering_ magazine, and a chapter of jokes told by the
characters of the _Book_. Most importantly, it contains a
chronological bibliography of Wolfe's spec-fic works. It is
available as a limited edition (signed and numbered, I believe)
published by Zeisling Bros, and also in an edition from the Science
Fiction Book Club. I don't know how to order it from the SFBC; I got
my copy from an ad in _Locus_.

I will share with you my favorite joke from _Castle_. It is told by
Master Ash, the Last Man.

"Once a man such as I, a man who walks the corridors of time, was
approached by a rich woman. "I wish to see the end of the world,"
she said. "Show it to me, and I will double your fortune."

"Doubled, my fortune would remain but small," said the scholar.

"Tripled, if you like," said the woman.

Then the rich woman told him all her riches should do to him and his
children if he did not obey her.

"Very well then," said the scholar. "Would you like to see the time
when the sun swells and Urth falls thereto like a cinder in a
grate?"

"No," said the rich woman. "That is only a larger fire, and I have
seen many fires."

"Then would you see the Grand Gnab, when the universe shall fall
into itself?"

"No," said the rich woman. "For that is not the end of anything, but
the beginning of a new universe."

"Then tell me what I must show you," said the scholar.

The rich woman took thought with herself, and at last she said,
"Show me the end of life. I would see the last agonies of the last
creature to live upon Urth."

"Very well," said the scholar; and they stood upon a plain of ice,
with the red sun no brighter than the moon.

"Where is the last creature?" said the woman. "That is what I wish
to see. Here every thing is already dead." A cold wind scoured the
plain, and she drew her furs more tightly around her.

"Why no," the scholar told her. "You live, and so do I." Handing her
a mirror, he vanished down the corridors of time.

The preceeding joke was Copyright 1982 by Gene Wolfe, and was
included as part of a review of _Castle of the Otter_. This posting
is in no way intended to infringe upon the copyright of Mr. Wolfe.
All rights reserved. It may not be duplicated by any means for any
purposes without written permission of the copyright holder.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 21:39:11 GMT
From: oliveb!bobd@rutgers.edu (Robert Duncan)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Works

A few years ago I read a great book called Riddley Walker.  It was a
post holocaust book dated far after the last war. The language was
in a bastardized English which was a little hard to read, but you
could figure out the words with a little work.  The story of the ONE
BIG ONE was kept alive as folklore through traveling Punch and Judy
shows.  If you enjoy linguistics, this is a great book well worth
the effort to read it.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 06:15:39 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Works

bobd@oliveb.UUCP (Robert Duncan) writes:
>A few years ago I read a great book called Riddley Walker.  It was
>a post holocaust book dated far after the last war. The language
>was in a bastardized English which was a little hard to read, but
>you could figure out the words with a little work.  The story of
>the ONE BIG ONE was kept alive as folklore through traveling Punch
>and Judy shows.  If you enjoy linguistics, this is a great book
>well worth the effort to read it.

  I am reading this book right now for a SF English class. The
"phonetic" spelling is *very* hard to read, but so far it has been
pretty much worth it. I have been very impressed at the attitudes
the society depicted portrays towards science, the past, liberalism
in general, and other things. It seems to me that this society
projected about another 200 years into the future would be a very
nice one to live in. Even though it does not have very high levels
of technology, it is a far from primitive society.
  Worth reading even if you *don't* like linguistics.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 02:28:53 GMT
From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they?

I have a related question.  Does anyone have a list of the *old* Ace
Specials?

I've been trying to collect them (especially the ones with the
really cool abstract/cubist covers by Leo Dillon).  There were some
really good novels there in the original series, such as *Pavane* by
Keith Roberts, *Rite of Passage* by Alexei Panshin, and a whole slew
by D.G. Compton and R.A.  Lafferty, and as far as I've been able to
find, no truly bad ones.

Anyway, does anyone have a complete list?  Jayembee, perhaps?

thanks in advance

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Apr 87 0811-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 87 0811-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Saberhagen (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 07:00:26 GMT
From: looking!brad@rutgers.edu
Subject: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called
Berserkers.  They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who
often come and attack humans.

While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the
concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen
A. Larson.

The Berserkers are robots, created long ago by an ancient race to
help them in wars.  The ancient race is now dead, probably killed by
the robots, but the Berserkers roam the universe attempting to wipe
out all life they can find.

This is the same history that the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica
have.  It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to
believe that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons.

If this isn't enough, the Berserker stories often contain humans who
betray mankind and work for the robots.  They are called "goodlife",
and are obviously taken from Baltar, the traitor in Battlestar
Galactica.

There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen avoided
a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 01:21:49 GMT
From: hubcap!beede@rutgers.edu (Michael Beede)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP says:
> I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called
> Berserkers.  [ . . . ]
>
> While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that
> the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by
> Glen A. Larson. [ . . . ]

I note an April 1st dateline here.  Assuming that this was a sally,
my complements.  It is very droll.

Assuming this was merely posted by accident on the 1st, I would
suggest you learn to read copyright dates before making insulting
comments about one of the best authors in the field.

To quote a famous fictional character: "Flummery."  (Attributation
is left as am excercise for the reader.  Identification of the
science fiction story where he made a "guest appearance" is worth
double points).

Mike Beede
Computer Science Dept.
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29631-1906
UUCP: . . . ! gatech!hubcap!beede

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 23:35:22 GMT
From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
>While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the
>concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen
>A. Larson.
>
>There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen
>avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

This is a joke, right?

Saberhagen has been writing Berserker stories since the sixties.
Battlestar Galactica first appeared in 1978.  If anyone should have
been sued it was the BG people (who were sued by the makers of *Star
Wars*, but that's a different story altogether).  Really, I hadn't
realized they were so similar.

But all this avoids the larger issue of whether you can copywrite
ideas.  My impression is that you can't.  For instance, I read a
serial in ANALOG called *Dawn* which was about a world in a multiple
star system which was never dark except once every uncountable eons.
Needless to say, this is the exact scenario of Asimov's 1943 story
"Nightfall".  So did Asimov sue?

Of course not, the new story had a completely different approach.
Despite the shared setting, the story was very different.  There was
no question that the new guy (sorry, forget his name) was ripping
off Asimov.

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 20:42:27 GMT
From: sunybcs!twomey@rutgers.edu (Bill Twomey)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
>I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called
>Berserkers.  They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who
>often come and attack humans.
>
>While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the
>concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen
>A. Larson.
> [ ... ]
>There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen
>avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

I think Saberhagen's books came first.  I don't have any books
around to check the copyright dates, can someone check?  The
question should be, How did Larson avoid the lawsuit?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 18:32:57 GMT
From: ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
>betray mankind and work for the robots.  They are called
>"goodlife", and are obviously taken from Baltar, the traitor in
>Battlestar Galactica.
>
>There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen
>avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

   Gee, I thought he avoided it by writing them before Battlestar
Galactica came out :-)

   Seriously, at the time that that show was created, I was very
surprised that Saberhagen didn't sue.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 07:53:41 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@rutgers.edu (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
> While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that
> the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by
> Glen A. Larson.  The Berserkers are robots, created long ago by an
> ancient race to help them in wars.  The ancient race is now dead,
> probably killed by the robots, but the Berserkers roam the
> universe attempting to wipe out all life they can find.  This is
> the same history that the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica have.
> It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to believe
> that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons.

It's hard to believe that Saberhagen's stories were based on
anything from Prattlestar Galaxative, considering that the first
Berserker story ("Without a Thought") appeared in 1963!!!  Perhaps
we should be asking where Glen Larson got the idea from!

For that matter, remember the "Doomsday Machine" episode of Star
Trek?  It was a single robotic device instead of a whole bunch, but
it's basically the same principle.

I don't remember if anybody used this idea before Saberhagen did,
but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody did do so.

> If this isn't enough, the Berserker stories often contain humans
> who betray mankind and work for the robots.  They are called
> "goodlife", and are obviously taken from Baltar, the traitor in
> Battlestar Galactica.

It isn't at all obvious, considering that all the stories in the
first Berserker book (including the ones introducing the goodlife
concept) came out long before anyone heard of Baltar.  It seems
fairly obvious (to me) that if you had this race of robots
attacking, there would be some people who work for them and even
worship them as gods.

> There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen
> avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

If I remember correctly, Glen Larson didn't manage to avoid a
lawsuit from George Lucas :-)

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 21:24:28 GMT
From: percival!leonard@rutgers.edu (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
>I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called
>Berserkers.  They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who
>often come and attack humans.
>
>While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that the
>concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by Glen
>A. Larson.

*** Flame on! ****

You might just try checking your facts before posting such
accusations to the net.

I'm not sure when Saberhagen started writing the stories but I was
reading them as early as the late 60's! They *far* predate
Battlestar Galactica.

*** Flame off  ****

Whenever you feel the you see such 'stolen ideas' in the future,
please check the copyright dates on the stories. And in the case of
an ongoing series (like the Berserker stories) check the library
(and Books in Print) to see how long the series has been going.

Leonard Erickson
CIS: [70465,203]
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 19:39:17 GMT
From: sdeggo!dave@rutgers.edu (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
> This is the same history that the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica
> have.  It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to
> believe that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons.

May I put it, rather mildly, that the reverse is more true?  The
Berserker stories have been around for a *long* time.  I can't think
of any author *wanting* to rip off Cattlecar Galactica.

> There are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen
> avoided a lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

Substitute Glen A Larson for Saberhagen and you'll have a sentence
that's true, at least as far as good SF goes.

David L. Smith
sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave
ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave
hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 00:20:02 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

>>While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that
>>the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by
>>Glen A. Larson.  (Note: April Fool's joke)
>But all this avoids the larger issue of whether you can copywrite
>ideas.  My impression is that you can't.  For instance, I read a
>serial in ANALOG called *Dawn* which was about a world in a
>multiple star system which was never dark except once every
>uncountable eons.  Needless to say, this is the exact scenario of
>Asimov's 1943 story "Nightfall".  So did Asimov sue?

I recall that the author explicitly acknowledged his debt to Asimov.

As for the Battlestar Galactice Ripoff issue, something that comes
to mind (note: no April Fool's joke here!) is an episode of
Galactica 1980 titled something like "The Return of Starbuck" (the
only one, I believe, where Starbuck shows up).  This seemed
suspiciously like the short story (later novel, and motion picture)
"Enemy Mine".  I didn't notice at first because I didn't read "Enemy
Mine" until I got the appropriate IA'SFM issue as a back issue.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins, seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!whuxcc} !jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 08:27:10 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>As for the Battlestar Galactice Ripoff issue, something that comes
>to mind (note: no April Fool's joke here!) is an episode of
>Galactica 1980 titled something like "The Return of Starbuck" (the
>only one, I believe, where Starbuck shows up).  This seemed
>suspiciously like the short story (later novel, and motion picture)
>"Enemy Mine".  I didn't notice at first because I didn't read
>"Enemy Mine" until I got the appropriate IA'SFM issue as a back
>issue.

Wow, now that you mention it, it was... I only read Enemy Mine"
after buying Asimov's Hugo Winners series over the summer.  "The
Return of Starbuck" was (In my opinion) the only decent episode of
an otherwise worthless series.  (G: 1980, not Battlestar Galactica
which was a cool show. )

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 18:45:51 GMT
From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

>I think Saberhagen's books came first.  I don't have any books
>around to check the copyright dates, can someone check?  The
>question should be, How did Larson avoid the lawsuit?

Saberhagen's stories do indeed come first. There was no real basis
for a lawsuit if you compare the Berserkers to the Cylons. The
Berserkers were robotic war devices created by an alien race long
since dead. The Cylons were robots created by an alien race also
long since dead. There the resemblence ends. The Berserkers were
programmed to destroy anything living.  The Cylons were merely
programmed to conquer the universe. Humanity was the biggest threat
to the Cylons, therefore they were out to destroy all of humanity.
Unlike the Berserkers, Cylons were content with capturing a planet
without killing everyone on it. In numerous episodes of Cattlecar
Galactica we saw civilizations that the Cylons allowed to live under
their domination.  And let's not forget the one episode of Galactica
1980 that was actually worth watching, "Starbuck's Last Mission."
Here were see a Cylon actually befriend a human and, in the end,
give his life to save that human. Something a Berserker could never
have done (the practical joker berserker story doesn't count as the
Berserker's brain was reset whereas the Cylon's wasn't). You might
as well ask why everyone who has ever written a story containing a
robot hasn't been sued by the first person to use a robot in a
story.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 19:31:23 GMT
From: dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred Saberhagen

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
> I recently read a compilation of stories about robots called
> Berserkers.  They are machines programmed to destroy all life, who
> often come and attack humans.
>
> While the stories were fairly well written, it seems to me that
> the concept is a direct ripoff of Battlestar Galactica, created by
> Glen A. Larson.

Negatory, son. Saberhagen's Berserker stories predate Battlebore
Galactica by some number of years. I recall the first story I read
by Saberhagen being before I escaped from high school, circa 1973
(or maybe 300B.C...it was a long time ago.) The one I read (and
naturally I can't remember the title and I'm too lazy to go home and
look it up) was where the scout pilot was being bombarded with
"stupidity" rays and yet had to convince the berserker that he was
not affected. So he trained his pet monkey to compare a game board
to the positions drawn on boxes of colored beads and choose moves
randomly by drawing a bead, throwing away moves that resulted in
lost games and replacing the beads for games won. Ha! Artificial
intelligence research CAN be useful. An application right here in
front of us.

> It's so close, and BG is so well known, that it is hard to believe
> that Saberhagen might not have known of the Cylons.  ...  There
> are some differences, which is probably how Saberhagen avoided a
> lawsuit, but that's not the way to write good S.F.

Yeah, how did Gary Larson avoid a lawsuit? And Battlebore certainly
wasn't the way to write good S.F. Except for the transposition of
names, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Dan C Duval
ISI Engineering
Tektronix, Inc.
tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Apr 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #137
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #137
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:

         Miscellaneous - Disneyland's Star Tours (2 msgs) &
                         Back Cover Writers & What Gets You First &
                         Dating Books & Conventions (2 msgs) &
                         Star Wars III Synopsis & An Opinion &
                         Terminology (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 23:34:04 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Star Tours

PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa writes:
>I just went to Disneyland this weekend and I wanted to review their
>newest addition, a ride named Star Tours.  This new ride was
>created by a team from Disney and Lucasfilms and is set in a Star
>Wars motif (thus it's review here).
>
>The ride itself consists of a spacecraft simulator, a cute robot
>pilot, and a movie of the view out the front of the ship.  There
>are actually four ships with room for about 35-40 people each, so
>they move people through pretty quickly. The flight takes about 12
>minutes and is very rough.

I've been on the Star Tours ride too and also loved it (I waited for
over three hours in line!), but it's worth noting that explicit
timing with a watch reveals that the ride, from the time the shield
in front of the viewscreen lowers to the time it comes back up and
the lights go on, is less than six minutes. Having exciting things
happen really stretches one's time sense.

Once you get inside the building, however, there are a lot of nifty
things to watch (it's set up as a tourist travel agency), so the
last half-hour of the line can sort of count as part of the ride.
(Including a P.A. system that announces at one point, "Will the
owner of a red landspeeder, license number THX-1138, please move
your vehicle? You are parked in a no-hover zone.")

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 87 07:35 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Tours
Cc: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa

Jon, you left out one of the more impressive parts of the "ride" in
your review.  Before you get to the actually ride, the line passes
through the "terminal" and through a robotics shop (why the latter,
I'm not sure).  In the terminal, C3PO and R2D2 work on a ship, with
a continuous dialog, plus a lot of announcements over the terminal
loudspeaker.  In the robot shop, you see an odd little droid working
away and keeping up a running monologue of horrible puns.  I liked
him.  I even forgave him when he turned around, aimed his soldering
gun right at me and said "Stick 'em up!"  Certainly, it makes
waiting in line more fun.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 16:29:54 GMT
From: faknabe@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Frederick Albert Knabe)
Subject: Re: Back cover writers

> Is there any reason authors don't write their own back covers?
> That way, we could tell what the book's about without reading the
> first chapter.

Some authors DO get to write their back covers, believe it or not.
Ellen Kushner's new book (her first novel, although she has edited
many other books) has back cover copy written by her. This
information from her at a writers' workshop she ran.

Fritz Knabe
Princeton University

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 03:21:48 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: What gets you first ?

> If you stroll out of an airlock into space without a space-suit,
> what is the result?  I'm well aware that the outlook is not good,
> :-), but what is it that kills you?

Probably the vacuum. :-)

> There seem to be a whole list of candidates, such as going "POP"
> in a messy way, or something subtle, (but equally nasty), like
> boiling blood.

Hm.  If you stay out till you die, probably anoxia.  If you get back
to atmosphere but die of the complications, probably either bends or
burst lungs (depending in part on what you were breathing to begin
with).

> Does it make any difference if you are "near" a star, in deep
> space, or in the shade of a spaceship?

If you are sufficiently near a star, you will be roasted first (I
realize the "sufficiently" makes this a tautology, but a spaceship
can likely survive much nearer than you can).  I would expect you to
smother before you freeze, particularly if you are dressed warmly,
since the only mode of heat loss is radiation.

Someone said something about how all the air would rush out of your
lungs &c and possibly burst your eardrums.  Would it really?  Is the
human respiratory tract too weak to hold in one atmosphere?  How
much pressure (differential) can the human lungs produce (eg, when
blowing up a balloon or something) and therefore contain?  How much
pressure (differential) can the eardrums withstand?  Does anyone
have numbers (I daresay fairly little experimentation has been done
- anybody wanna volunteer? :-)

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
{ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 87 06:20:27 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Another Trivia question

dma@euler.Berkeley.EDU (D. M. Auslander) writes:
>pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>> I was reading a fairly early sf book recently and it occurred to
>> me that it is posible to roughly date a book by the sort of
>> assumptions it makes [...]
>
> Two more things that came to mind:
>
> 2) In early sf, all life forms are carbon based (and somewhat
> human metabolically.)  There seems to be a general progression
> from carbon based/humanoid thru [...] all the way to non carbon
> based (e.g.  silicon based or even sentient machine in the most
> extreme form)

I seem to recall an early SF story (Martian Odessey? (did I spell
that right? spell didn't help) - it was set on Mars) which had a
silicon-based lifeform (no, *not* Andy Beals!).  It also mentioned
half a dozen others, presumably but not explicitly carbon-based.

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
{ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 22:45:15 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Announcement of Unicon'87

Unicon 87 will be held on the traditional third weekend in July
(17-19).  The principal guests are:

   G-O-H: David Brin
   Artist: David Mattingly
   Fan: Marty Gear

with the usual cast of other guests.  The convention is being held
in the Annapolis Holiday Inn, which is really a bit outside of town.
(For the locals, it's in Parole at the intersection of US 50/301 and
Md. Rt. 2 -- very close to Annapolis Mall.)

THose of you on the net who would like a flyer can send me a message
containing your US Postal address.  If you can't wait, the address
of the convention is

   UNICON'87
   PO Box 7553
   Silver Spring, MD 20907

****NOTE THAT THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OLD ADDRESS!!!****

If you are driving to the convention, you will want a flyer, since
it has a map to help you get there (the exit from US 50 is kind of
weird).

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 08:02:46 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Convention Notice: Plan Ahead
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

I know this is a bit early, but here it is anyway.

CONTRADICTION 7
OCTOBER 2-4, 1987
GOH: ANNE McCAFFREY
FANGOH: MIKE GLICKSOHN
SPECIAL GUESTS:
        JOAN D. VINGE, NANCY KRESS, JIM FRENKEL, T.S. HUFF
WHERE:  Ramada Inn, 410 Buffalo Ave., Niagara Falls NY 14303

See one of the Natural Wonders of the World!  (Niagara Falls, that
is.)  Note our international guest list!  Art show, masquerade,
parties, and special midnight chocolate banquet.

For info, write CONTRADICTION, PO Box 2043, Newmarket Station,
Niagara Falls, NY 14301 USA.  Or come to our party at Ad Astra!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 87 23:18 EDT
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Spurious STAR WARS III story treatment

The "STAR WARS III story treatment" run through SF-LOVERS on 21 Mar
1987 (and the digest nearly two weeks later) is naught but fan
fiction, and should have been labelled as such. For the story behind
this piece of work, I take the liberty of reprinting a letter to the
editor written by Linda Deneroff (a well known SW fan) that appeared
in the April 1987 issue of SF CHRONICLE:

     The other day I saw your January issue and read Marvin Kaye's
  column.  Being an unreformed fan of STAR WARS, I enjoyed the
  column immensely. But I do want to point out a factual error.

     Mr. Kaye referred to "The Fall of the Republic" as an outline
  for one of the films for the non-existent (as of now) first SW
  trilogy. This outline, however, was written by John Flynn of
  Maryland. I've met Flynn on several occasions and he acknowledged
  writing and submitting it to LucasFilm, and also acknowledges that
  LucasFilm rejected it.

     Maureen Garrett, formerly of the Star Wars Fan Club run by
  LucasFilm, also tracked him down, warning him that he could not
  sell it as the outline for the first trilogy, only as another
  piece of fan fiction. Flynn told both of us that it was
  "unscrupulous dealers" who had picked it up and were reproducing
  and selling it as the genuine article.

     This may explain why there is nothing "new" in that outline.
  I'm sure whatever ideas Mr. Lucas or his chosen writers have now
  or in the future are being kept strictly under lock and key. Mr.
  Kaye or anyone else who purchased the outline thinking it was
  official has been, regrettably, misinformed.

Where this particular version of the Flynn piece materialized from
doesn't really matter. What does matter is that the George Lucas
attribution is plainly specious, and possibly actionable. It would
be nice if people would check the provenance of their material
before posting it (and thus sending it via the net to more people
than had read it in all the illicit print versions). There are also
far better examples of SW fan fiction out there.  I don't think
SF-LOVERS is the proper forum for them, either.

Andrew Sigel
sigel@cs.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 87  10:00 EST
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Opinions on unpublished material

   I, for one, do not think that the SF-Lovers Digest is the
appropriate place to solicit criticism of literary efforts. It's not
the general principal I disagree with. If the doors are opened to
this kind of thing then the digest will be deluged not only with
long potential plotlines, but with massive amounts of critical
feedback reguarding these plots.  Poor Saul is already busier that a
one-armed paper-hanger with body lice. As a general rule, I believe
we should stick to discussing PUBLISHED fiction. After all, what are
FANZINES for?
   The fact is that a high percentage of SF-Lovers are aspiring SF
writers. I am myself, and I'm sure many of you reading this are. I
think it would be a better idea just to submit tips on how to write
better.
   As an example, here are a few guidelines that I try to live by:

   1) Read, read, read. The best readers make the best writers.
   2) Write, write, write. In writing, as in anything, practice
      makes perfect.
   3) Be familiar with the basic rules of grammar and punctuation.
   4) Use a dictionary! Spelling mistakes show carelessness, and
      create a negative impression on potential publishers.
   5) Keep a small notepad and pen with you at all times to jot down
      those elusive ideas as they occur to you. Otherwise, you will
      forget more than you commit to paper.
   6) Be familiar with common and extreamly over-used ideas, the
      better to avoid cliche situations. Of course, if you REALLY
      have a new approach to an old concept, that's a different
      story.

   Write on!

Joseph St.Lawrence
Yale University
BITNET: SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 22:36:36 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: SF vs. "Skiffy"--filked

   Some years ago, this is what some Midwestern fen agreed was
a proper orientation about the SF vs. "Skiffy" controversy:

                     "Please Don't Say Sci-Fi!"

(Filk, presented in the musical parody "Up The Creek" Inconjunction
I, Indianapolis, Indiana, July 3, 1981, by the "It's Not OUR Fault!"
players)

                  lyrics by Arlan Andrews (c) 1981

(melody, it is rumored, sounds a bit like the song "Fie On
Goodness!", from the musical "Camelot"...)

[Spoken:] "...Are you folks, by any chance, SCI FI fans?"
               ...
   "We've all woke up on Riverworld
   We hoped YOU could tell us why.
   But there's no Riverworldy reason
   You should EVER say SCI FI!"

[Sung:]

When you mean to speak of science fiction
And want to rate as a fan/In th' world's eye
If you mean to speak with deep conviction
Don't say SCI FI!  Don't say SCI FI!

NEVER say SCI FI!
Not ever say SCI FI!

If you have just arrived in science fiction
A neofan, with head up in the sky
Be sure to practice up your fannish diction
And don't say SCI FI!
Don't say SCI FI!

NEVER say SCI FI
When plain "SF" will do
And then all the trufen will adore you
It's just that way/Don't bother asking why
And if their conversations ever bore you
Just look in their eyes/No matter their size, saying
Please don't say SCI FI!
FI! FI! FI!

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  3 Apr 87  10:17:34 EST
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: (hopefully) last on terminology

SCI-FI   What you call science fiction when you're in high school
         and talking about it to all the jerks around you who still
         don't understand and harrass you anyway.

SF       What you call science fiction when you go to college and join
         the local club and find other people just like you. You call
         it sf now since you don't want to sound like a high school
         geek.

SCIFFY   What you call science fiction at a con suite to startle and
         annoy all the snobby sf people around you i.e. just for
         kicks.

S&F      My own creation 'nuff said!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 87 15:02 EST
From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
Subject: Trekker vs. Trekkie

elb@mtx5c.UUCP (Ellen Bart) writes:
>Excuse me Russell, but many of us call ourselves Trekkers to
>distinguish ourselves from Star Trek groupies (Trekkies).
>
>Under this system a Trekker cares about the consistency between
>episodes, how the warp engines work, and what happened to the
>tribbles after the Klingons got them.  We may care about whether
>the Enterprise is a Starship or Constitution Class ship, and we may
>watch the cartoons.
>
>A trekkie, however, may (or may not) care about those things, but
>for sure he/she cares about Nichelle Nichols's astrological sign
>and whether William Shatner got an 'A' in French in 9th grade.

I, as usual, wasn't even aware there were two terms.  (I didn't know
about SF either.  I had been calling this digest Sci-Fi-Lovers until
the topic came up.  I figured SF was just another example of the
multitude of abbreviations I find all over my Computer magazines and
in so many of the comments on the net.  I didn't know you actually
said "ess-eff".)

I've called myself a trekkie since I was in about fourth grade and
started stealing and reading my older brother's Star Trek books.
They were "Star Trek 3" and "The Making of Star Trek".  (I have
since acquired my own books.)  I knew all the episodes inside and
out for years.  Some of that has slipped, since I've only been able
to see Star Trek on weeknights at midnight for about six years, and,
well, that makes work a little too complicated the next day.

I have to say, however, that it seems a little silly to worry about
consistency between the episodes.  I mean, we're talking about a TV
show.  They aren't exactly known for their consistency.  Bad story
editors, I'd guess.  My favorite example of this has to be "The Odd
Couple", which must have had a different explanation every season of
how Oscar and Felix met.

Kaile Goodman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Apr 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #138
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #138
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:

   Books - Alexander & Farmer & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Rand (2 msgs)
   Miscellaneous - The Death of Patrick Troughton (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 13:49:13 GMT
From: cblpe!bcm@rutgers.edu (Bob Morman)
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries

rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:
>I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series )
>has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name of
>the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed here.

Is this the same Black Cauldron as the recent Walt Disney animated
movie ?

Bob Morman
AT&T Bell Labs
Columbus, OH.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 19:12:32 GMT
From: jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini)
Subject: Philip Jose' Farmer

Hello out there in net-land. I just finished reading Phillip Jose'
Farmer's "Riverworld series". (To Your Scattered Bodies Go, et al)
and I was confused on a few points. I was hoping that someone more
literate than I could answer them.

1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood
about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and
that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left
somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections.

2) I do have some other critisisims (sic) which I would like to
bounce off the net and get other opinions on.

   A) I felt that Farmer did not adequately explored parent/child
   relationships. If I were resurrected I think I would try to find
   my Mother and Father . I should imagine most people would.

   B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I
   would used some "bigger" characters in the book. Einstein, George
   Washington, Ceasar, JFK, Robert E. Lee, Charlemange, Brian Boru,
   Ghandi, etc. What I mean is include some bigger than life
   characters.

   C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in
   the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him.  But I would have
   included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or
   apostle.

Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous
series.

James J. Alpigini
Raytheon SSD
W. Main Rd   Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087
{cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,mirror,uiucdcs}!rayssd!jja

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 87 23:44:21 GMT
From: danger!neil@rutgers.edu (neil)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

kent@xanth.UUCP writes:
> With his current status, he could probably sell just about
> anything in the prime markets on name alone.  He hasn't had a
> clunker in a long time though.

He's had several clunkers! Up to and including "The Cat that Walked
Through Walls" He may have sold well, you and his many fans may have
enjoyed them, but then I enjoy my 1970 no ps/pb Coronet too.
Heinlein used to be a lot of fun, but now his work is practically
worthless. We know, ad nauseam what his modus vivendi is, his
*jokes* are boringly similar, his self indulgent style is stifling -
I read his books (from the public library) hoping to he'll return to
the one thing he used to be good at, telling a good yarn. Cat
started out properly and went geometrically down hill.

I'm curious as to how much time Heinlein spends writing a novel
these days.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 23:11:44 GMT
From: dolqci!bruce@rutgers.edu (Bruce Limber)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

Under what pseudonyms did Heinlein write?

Bruce Limber
seismo!dolqci!bruce

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 23:37:30 GMT
From: borealis!barry@rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

bruce@dolqci.UUCP (Bruce Limber) writes:
>Under what pseudonyms did Heinlein write?

   The most famous Heinlein pseudonym is Anson MacDonald (Anson is
RAH's middle name, MacDonald is his mother's maiden name). I believe
it was mostly John Campbell's idea. Campbell wanted the Heinlein
byline to be hooked exclusively to the "Future History" series.
Also, he was publishing so much of RAH in ASTOUNDING in the early
1940s that more than one RAH story would end up appearing in the
same issue. The traditional wisdom in publishing is that this is a
Bad Idea, so the stories were published under different bylines.
   Heinlein gave up using pseudonyms when he returned to writing
after WWII. In one of his advice to writers essays, he points out
that a writer's name is one of his biggest assets; good stories
written under your own name enhance your reputation as a writer. If
no one knows you wrote 'em, all they get you is money.
   The only other pseudonym I know of RAH using is "Lyle Monroe",
which he used on a single story, for reasons unknown to me. I don't
recall which story it was, either, but I know it's been reprinted
under RAH's own name, as have all the "Anson MacDonald" stories.  If
there are any unknown Heinlein works hiding out under an assumed
name, it's a well-kept secret. I've never heard of 'em, and I'm
pretty well informed about what RAH's written.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 16:21:59 GMT
From: howard@cos.COM (Howard Berkowitz)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

One Heinlein pseudonym, the only one appearing in the Library of
Congress catalogm is Anson Mc (Mac?) Donald.

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  4 Apr 87 17:43:51 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Ayn Rand
To: obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU

> From: obnoxio@brahms
> The only shake up that occurred in my thought patterns while
> reading the book was

I should have said, _Atlas Shrugged_ will shake up your thought
patterns only if:

1) You don't already happen to agree with it all.
2) You are open-minded enough to actually THINK about the issues
   raised, rather than rejecting them unexamined on the grounds that
   they are too shocking, or that they conflict with one's religion,
   or whatever.

I guess you fall in neither category.

> when flying home on a plane, about 70% through the book, and I
> spied the headlines on other people's newspapers that referred to
> Mexico nationalizing its banks.  I kept thinking "Oh no, the
> People's Republic of Mexico has nationalized its banks."

That's pretty wild!

> The real shake up occurred years later when I learned that there
> were people who took _Atlas Shrugged_ religiously.  I couldn't
> believe it.

Neither can I.  I have never met any such person.  I have met people
who, like me, believe that the book makes many valid points and that
the world would be a better place if more people agree with Ayn Rand
about more things.  I have met people who disagree with the book for
various well thought out reasons.  I believe they are mistaken, but
I respect them.  I do NOT respect anyone whose only argument against
the book (or any other book) is to incant "BOGUS! BOGUS!".

> Her best work of fiction, of course, is _Introduction to
> Objectivist Epistemology_.  It doesn't have a plot, but it's
> completely mind boggling, the way PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE is.

It was intended as nonfiction as I think you know.  That is not the
best introduction to Objectivism, _Atlas Shrugged_ is.  ItOE is
intended for serious students of Objectivism, and I understand how
it could easily confuse one such as you.

> (Her short story "An Open Letter to Boris Spassky" [in
> _Philosophy: Who Needs It?_], sometimes called "Rand to Gibber
> Four", is a profound classic, not to be missed.

You sure seem to have read a lot of her stuff for one who gets so
little out of it.  And just who, pray tell, calls it "Rand to Gibber
Four"?

> The tension created by her usage of a first person narrator who is
> completely ignorant of the game of chess while carrying on an
> imaginary dialectical exchange with the world champion in a
> completely condescending manner makes for gut-rolling humor.  The
> suspension of disbelief is difficult at this point, however.
> After all, no one in real life would actually say such moronic
> things about chess as the narrator does.)

An "open letter" is not a short story, it is an accepted form in its
own right.  Whether she actually mailed the letter to Spassky I
don't know.  What exactly was wrong with what was said about chess?

I begin to understand the rationale behind your choice of username.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  4 Apr 87 18:01:17 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Ayn Rand
To: scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU

> From: scdpyr!faulkner@rutgers.edu (Bill Faulkner)
> ... is just part of what is called guerrilla ontology, and Shea
> and Wilson use it endlessly.

My understanding of guerilla ontology is that it consists mainly of
getting people to doubt all sources of knowledge by having as many
people as possible spread outrageous lies to as many people as
possible.  It also seems to consist of giving people mind altering
drugs without their knowledge or consent.  I disagree with Wilson
and Shea about the desirability of this.

> some of the objectivists really love Wilson and Shea and others
> apparently like you are rather lukewarm towards them.

Well, I read everything I can find by Wilson.  I disagree with much
of what he says, but I do find it thought provoking.  The main
things I disagree with are:

1) His mysticism, worship of assorted imaginary (?) gods, his belief
   in telepathy, precognition, levitation, etc.

2) His assertion that massive use of mind altering drugs is a
   reasonable and constructive thing to do, and a good way to
   become more attuned to reality, which he describes as "silly
   putty".

3) While calling himself a libertarian, he promotes immense
   government programs in space colonization and life extension.

4) He dislikes greed and selfishness.

5) While he agrees with Leary that nobody should be forced to use
   drugs against their will, his Guerilla Onology seems to involve
   drugging people against their will.

6) While claiming to be an advocate of a free market economy, he
   suggests a permanent universal rent strike, and denies that land
   can be owned or that rent is ever legitimate.

> The rigid dogmatic logic
> structure of many objectivists is not for everybody,

Please explain what is rigid and dogmatic about it.

> and it is especially repugnant to most avowed discordians (such
> as Wilson and Shea).

Do you know if they, or anyone, is REALLY a Discordian?

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 13:38:08 GMT
From: jean@hrcca.UUCP (Jean Airey)
Subject: Patrick Troughton Dies

(The following was sent to DW clubs belonging to the "APC Network"
Any clubs or club members on this net, please feel free to copy)

Date: March 31, 1987

It is with very great regret that I must inform you that Patrick
Troughton died at 7:25 AM Saturday Morning, March 28 in Columbus
Georgia.  While the paramedics called to help did everything they
could, he was officially pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.
The paramedics believed he had died instantly.  He was appearing at
Magnum Opus Con - 2.

Pat was born March 25th, 1920 and was known and loved by DW fans as
the actor who created the Second Doctor.  He played the role from
November 1966 - June 1969 and later returned to the program to do
"The Three Doctors" with Jon Pertwee and Willian Hartnell; "The Five
Doctors" with Richard Hurndall, Jon Pertwee and Peter Davison; and
"The Two Doctors" with Colin Baker.

One of the very best of British character actors, he was at first
reluctant to take on the role of The Doctor,fearing that it might
cause him to lose the anonymity that he valued highly.  The Doctor
he created remains in the hearts of many fans as the most vulnerable
and humorous.  After 1969 he continued his career with appearances
in over 20 TV series including "The 6 Wives of Henry The VIII," "The
Persuaders," "Jenny," "The Survivors," "Space 1999," "The Feathered
Serpent," "The Sweeney," "Treasure Island," and "The Magic Box."
Some of his major film appearances were in: "Scars of Dracula,"
"Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger," and "The Omen."

Until 1983 he was noted for not giving interviews of "doing"
conventions.  However, in the spring of that year he was at the BBC
Longleat Festival and gave an interview to the "Doctor Who Monthly"
(#78).  In November of 1983 he came over to America to the first of
the Chicago "Monstercons," with some 20 other guests.  In spite of
that conventions' confusion, it would seem that he enjoyed the
experience as he has returned several times since to do more Spirit
Of Light conventions as well as several for the Doctor Who Fan Club
Of America.  He greatly seemed to enjoy the spirit of the fan
conventions such as OMNICON.  He was scheduled to do several "stops"
with the BBC Festival Tour later this year.  He always seemed to
enjoy meeting fans and the word from some people at the convention
is that although he had a very light "official" schedule on Friday,
he spent most of his time walking around, talking to people, signing
autographs and "having a good time."

He will be very much missed by all of us.

The family has asked that no flowers be sent.  Cards may be sent c/o
the "Doctor Who" Production Office, BBC TV, Union House, 65/69
Shepherds Bush Green, London, England W12 7RJ.  If anyone wishes to
make a donation in Pat's memory to a cause he cared about, it should
be to Cancer Research.

Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 Apr 87 08:57:22-MST
From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
Subject: Patrick Troughton, 2nd Dr. Who, dies

I was wondering if anyone on the list had been attending that
convention or knew someone who had. I wonder if the convention
closed when this happened, or what. As a side issue, has this sort
of thing ever happened before at an SF or media con? (That is, a GOH
or other important or well-known attendee dies while at the
convention? I have a vague recollection of such a thing happening
before, but no details come to mind.)

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 17:39:22 GMT
From: hrcca!jean@rutgers.edu (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Patrick Troughton, 2nd Dr. Who, dies

From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
> I was wondering if anyone on the list had been attending that
> convention or knew someone who had. I wonder if the convention
> closed when this happened

While I wasn't there, some very good friends of mine were -- and
were also working the con.  The con did not close, and the con
chairperson didn't even want to have the rest of the con told what
had happened.  He wanted to just keep saying all weekend that Pat
"would not be able to do" his panels and have the rest of the guests
fill in.  He was -- ahem -- overruled & the con continued.  The rest
of the guests felt that Pat would not have wanted things stopped.
The con chair was also furious that some people who knew what had
happened called other people to let them know, including a call to
John Nathan-Turner, BBC DW Producer (also a friend of Pat's) so that
the BBNs (Beautiful British Newspapers) would not be the ones
breaking the news to him.  Very fortunately, one of the attendees
was also a friend of the Troughton family & was able to call the
*appropriate* people & tell them.

But WMartin raises a good point for all cons (and one I've been
thinking about since this happened) -- How much information *do*
cons generally have on any GoH?  Let's face it, even if you have the
typical "emergency notification" information -- that's almost always
a SO type of person (spouse, etc).  But who among us would feel that
in the case of a death you'd want to call *that* person and announce
over the phone that their loved one had died?  In that kind of
situation -- where it's a natural death -- can you ask the local
sheriff or whoever to break the news?  Is that better than a phone
call?  What would you do?

Jean Airey
US Mail: 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Apr 87 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #139
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Apr 87 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #139
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Boskone (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 18:09:44 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>[a list of things you've all seen at least 10 times now.]
>The above was from a NESFA newsletter. Comments, anyone? (My only
>comment at this time is <retch>.)

   It seems *very* reasonable to me.  The only problem is that I
have stayed away from cons because of exactly the type of
stereotypical atmosphere they are trying to prevent.  Now that a
perfectly reasonable con comes along, the only credential I have for
being invited is that I'm not a minor.  Gak!  You just can't win.

Joel Plutchak
uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster
ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu
BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 19:19:24 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes:
> One other question: My experience in the con scene is limited to
> three Boskones.  Should NESFA do what they intend to do, are there
> any OTHER cons of like character to previous Boskones (Boskone
> Classic, anyone? :-) )?

As someone who has attended Boskones for the last 18 years, I can
say that Boskone XXV as planned *is* "Boskone Classic"; Boskones XX
through XXIV have been "New Boskone."

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 05:24:27 GMT
From: mipos3!bverreau@rutgers.edu (Bernie Verreau ~)
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

> A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being
> made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it
> used to be".

I admit to being one who made light of the list of Boskone
"mandates".  I also admit to being among the uninitiated when it
comes to science fiction conventions.  [NESFA regulars may now hit
the "n" key.]  After reading the list of "don'ts", however, I was
struck by the distinctly unfriendly atti- tude directed toward
outsiders and the feeling of regimentation conveyed by the rules.  I
am reminded of a scene from an old Star Trek episode, "Errand of
Mercy".  With apologies to all non-ST-lovers:

[The Klingons have landed occupation forces on the planet Organia.
 Kirk and Spock (whose nose isn't blue even though he is a Bostonian
 in a different reality) stand before the Klingon commander.]

Kor, Klingon military governor:
     You are now subjects of the Klingon Empire.  You'll find that
     there are many rules and regulations; they will be posted.
     Violation of the smallest of them will be punished by death.

Ayelborne of the Organian Council:
     We shall obey your regulations, commander.

Kor:
     You disapprove, Barona?

Barona (Kirk in disguise):
     You need my approval?

Kor:
     I need your obedience, nothing more.  Will I have it?

Barona:
     [grimly] You seem to be in command.

Kor:
     Yes, I am.

> So I'm curious; what's your definition of a "fun con"?

I suppose I am handicapped here in that I haven't attended sf cons,
fun or otherwise.  Still, I think of a convention as primarily a
social gathering.  We all read books and watch movies on our own.  I
should think that a convention gives people the opportunity to get
together and talk about a favorite subject, party, and even let off
a little steam, if so inclined.  I don't know about you, but I like
to make the most of my leisure time and money.  I can't see spending
either to be told exactly what I can and cannot do for the duration.

I can sympathize with the point of view of those who actually run
the conventions.  It's mostly work and little fun for them.  Being
contractually responsible to and for a large group of conventioneers
is one headache I'd rather avoid.  I wonder if it might be possible
to find others who would take charge of some of the security issues.

One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is the
weekend cruise.  (I do speak from personal experience here, having
enjoyed a couple sailings with fellow amateur astronomers.) The
cruise line takes full responsiblity for ship security, and their
attitude is that the passengers are there to have a good time, so
don't fence them in.  The ships were large enough that individuals
could seek out or avoid particular activities as they wished.  I
realize it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities, but if
you really want to go after a more "mature" crowd, maybe that's an
advantage.  Has this been tried before?

Bernie Verreau

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 87 18:11:45 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

tyg@lll-crg.UUCP (Tom Galloway) writes:
>Given this fact of having to cut attendance this drastically (and
>once again, this was not something that was done by the committee),
>can you or anyone come up with a way of encouraging new people to
>come that makes any sense when the committee has to somehow get
>over 2000 people who were there last year not to show up next year?
>
>And given that they have to reduce attendance so drastically, can
>anyone offer any reason why they shouldn't attempt to reduce it to
>those people who are coming because it's a science fiction
>convention and not because it's a party?

With the solution they've proposed, they're also knocking off a lot
of genuinely interested science fiction readers, and they're still
letting in the local partiers who've gotten in at the door the last
few years.  Though I don't remember the exact rules they listed, I
think that the only way I could ever get into a Boskone in my life
would be to join a science fiction club, something I have little
desire to do.  Of course, if I became a writer, I wouldn't want to
go.
   In any case, to the point of your posting, which I guess is the
reason a lot of people are upset, is: is there a way to cut the con
down to 2000 without a) letting in people who want a party, not a
con, or b) screwing over people who are genuinely interested.  I
think a major part of this should be mandatory pre-registration.
That way, anyone who would suffer on account b would have only
themselves to blame.  Limiting costumes/weapons sounds to me like
something that is necessary, just to keep a hotel.  And there's no
reason the con can't be first-register first-get in.  That way, it
would be cut to 2000, and though it would still be hard to get in,
it wouldn't be impossible, and certainly wouldn't be due to any
snobbery/elitism.  And if it is found necessary to give preference
to certain groups of people, such as writers, people who have spent
gobs of $, or whatever, then a quota system could be implemented, or
the forms could be sent to them earlier, or something else.  Well,
maybe these aren't great ideas, but I thought I might as well throw
them out.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  4 Apr 87 15:35:54 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Boskone
To: OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU

I don't know what vandalism was done at Boskone 24, but I think the
false fire alarm allegation may be mistaken.  I was present in one
room when the alarm went off for that room.  I immediately looked at
the alarm and saw that it had not been pulled.  What I did see was
that many people in the room were smoking, and that smoke had
visibly accumulated on the ceiling, which was about 20 feet up.

I think their smoke alarms were too sensitive.  I am fairly allergic
to smoke, but I wasn't ususally bothered by smoking in the large
conference rooms at the con.

As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory
solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships.
Perhaps let everyone pay what they feel a membership is worth, and a
month or two before the con, refund all but the top 2000 bids (ties
to be decided by postmark date).  Perhaps also set up an area for
"scalpers" so that people can get memberships at the door.

I noticed that people from out of town were not listed on the
automatically-invited list, which is a shame because someone who is
willing to spend $100+ for transportation is certainly serious about
Boskone, and is probably willing to pay a higher membership fee,
which would discourage randoms and non-serious attendees.  It would
also give NESFA cash with which to hire people to help with the con.
I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering to
help out.  But I only go to two cons a year, and spend about $300
per con, so I don't want to spend my time there slicing vegetables
in the con suite or patrolling the stairwells for people without
badges.

Keith
P.S. How about inviting only non-smokers :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  5 Apr 87 01:22:31 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Boskone

Perhaps NESFA should get together with many other SF organizations
also near the sea, and purchase a large cruise ship.  On Boskone
weekend it would be anchored in Boston Harbor, and Boskone would be
held on board.  Other weekends it would be anchored in other cities,
and one con or another could be held on board every weekend.  On
weekdays, perhaps it could be leased out for mundane conventions and
conferences, or used as a hotel or even as a cruise ship.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 22:34:40 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Boskone

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes:
>I don't know what vandalism was done at Boskone 24, but I think the
>false fire alarm allegation may be mistaken.  I was present in one
>room when the alarm went off for that room.

I was also in a room where the smoke alarm went off.  The main floor
alarm did not go off.  I seem to remember being told that three
separate alarms would have to go off on a floor before the fire
department was notified.  If not this way, fire alarms must be
pulled for the fire department to show.

>As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory
>solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships.
>Perhaps let everyone pay what they feel a membership is worth, and
>a month or two before the con, refund all but the top 2000 bids
>(ties to be decided by postmark date).  Perhaps also set up an area
>for "scalpers" so that people can get memberships at the door.

Wrong-o!  It discriminates against people who have no spare money,
like myself.  Aside from scalping being illegal, I would think that
the people who could afford the scalped tickets would have bid
higher originally, since they could afford the price of the scalped
tickets, which would be higher?  Why turn the convention into a
money-grubbing event?  I always thought the point of a con was to
get together to share the joys of science fiction.  When did this
change?  Even if we implemented your bidding scheme, what's to stop
2000 Joe "partyanimal" Richkids from getting his parents to outbid
2000 Sally "serious-sf" Congoers?  Something tells me that this is
going to turn into another soapbox from which to spout Libertarian
ideals.  I don't want to hear any...If I did, I'd read
talk.politics.  Please don't start.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  5 Apr 87  19:32:10 EST
From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Stuff on Boskone and Noreascon III

Hi,
    I am President of the U. Mass Science Fiction Society, and I
would like to ask a few questions that came up as I read the issue
of Instant Message that we receive as a courtesy from NESFA.
    I want to know if the following 2 suggestions will be
implemented: 1) That memberships will be made non-transferrable. If
this is the case, the con publicity had better make this clear.  If
you do not do so soon, someone is going to have some fun with NESFA
in court.  I personally feel that this is a just plain scummy thing
to do.  I may not be in New England next year, but I would like to
have the chance to buy a membership and then sell it if I cannot
make it to Boskone.

2) That the people who have already bought memberships at $18.00 may
have their money refunded because with the smaller attendance, this
would be an undue hardship on the convention budgets.  This can be
construed as fraud.
    On Noreascon III: one of my housemates' father is a a major
contractor for the remodeling of the HYNES.  The word from that
angle is: it is almost an impossibility that the Hynes auditorium
would be ready for Noreascon III.  They are behind schedule and over
budget (the reality of public works in Massachusetts).

Good luck NESFA,
Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  5 Apr 1987 18:17:35-PDT
From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (The Wizard)
Subject: My previous Boskone suggestions

I gave a few suggestions on how to keep Boskone as good as it is.
One person said I had neglected to comment on how, even though NESFA
could farm out some of the activities, they could keep the crowd
control in control.

Simply put, if an organization gets 'licensed', they also have to
volunteer a number of people to help with the crowds.  That would be
part of 'the price' of being 'sanctioned'.

Of course, NESFA has already spoken on this matter.  I'm waiting for
their newsletter so I can apply for my refund.

dj

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 16:05:41 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: My previous Boskone suggestions

djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>I gave a few suggestions on how to keep Boskone as good as it is.
>One person said I had neglected to comment on how, even though
>NESFA could farm out some of the activities, they could keep the
>crowd control in control.
>
>Simply put, if an organization gets 'licensed', they also have to
>volunteer a number of people to help with the crowds.  That would
>be part of 'the price' of being 'sanctioned'.

But that has nothing to do with the problem NESFA is facing!

No hotel in Boston will accept Boskones at the size of last year's
con, regardless of the number of volunteers provided. Once again,
folks:

    It was *not* NESFA's idea to cut Boskone membership by 60%!
                      It was _forced_on_them_!

Given that, they are trying to allocate a limited resource --
memberships -- in what they see as the fairest way possible. We can
argue about whether a fairer way could be found; that all depends on
what you mean by "fair". NESFA is trying to ensure that the people
who get memberships are the sort of people NESFA members want to be
at a con with: reasonably serious readers of sf who are somewhat
involved in fandom already (that bit about "member of a known sf
club") and who are statistically unlikely to be heavy partiers. This
is their right as the people holding the con.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Apr 87 0831-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #140
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Apr 87 0831-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #140
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:

             Administrivia - SF-LOVERS and the Network,
             Books - Eddings & Lindsay & McCaffrey (5 msgs) &
                     Rosenberg (2 msgs) & Story Request Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 08:05:32 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS and the network

   It seems that yesterday, April 7, we installed the new host list
from SRI-NIC who maintain the network host tables.  They had vowed
to remove from their list all names for hosts that were
"unqualified", which basically means any host name that didn't
conform to the new naming conventions.  Well they did what they
claimed and SF-LOVERS managed to suffer.  Many sites (almost half of
the list) were rejected by the mailer as invalid hostnames.
   I have managed to repair my distribution list (with some help
from our local host table maintainer) but there are some sites that
I still don't have correct addresses for.  Also, many of you out
there now reading this will have missed several issues that went
through the queue before the distribution list was fixed.  If you
are missing any issues please use the anonymous function of FTP to
retrieve them from PS:<BBOARD>SF-LOVERS.TXT@RED.RUTGERS.EDU.  I will
not remail any of these issues to people so please don't ask.
   This however should serve as a reminder to people that if you
know your network address has changed (or will change in the near
future) to send a note to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RED.RUTGERS.EDU to have
me change my distribution list.  If people had informed me of their
hostname change before the new host table came out, this problem
would have been avoided.  Also, mail forwarding from an old address
to your new location is *a very bad idea* as the forwarding can get
broken without warning.  Please be sure that I always have your
*current* address in my list.  It helps me and it helps you get the
digest faster and more reliably.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 20:34:28 GMT
From: jhunix!ins_adsk@rutgers.edu (David S Kerven)
Subject: David Eddings' latest

   To anyone out there who is a David Eddings' fan.  His next book
is out in hard cover.  It's the first book in another series call
the Mallorean.  The title of the book is Guardian of the West.  It
takes place several years after the end of the Belgariad.

David S. Kerven
USENET: allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_adsk
        seismo!umcp-cs!jhunix!ins_adsk
ARPAnet:ins_adsk%jhunix.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA
BITNET: ins_adsk@jhunix
CSNET:  ins_adsk@jhunix.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 13:38:21 GMT
From: putnam@thuban.steinmetz (putnam)
Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus

Someone has already replied about "Arcturus", but the name Lindsay
kept bothering me, I knew I had something else by him that had not
already been mentioned so I went over and poked around in my
bookshelves for a while (not a long while, but long enough - I
really should arrange things more rationally) till I found it.  A
single volume containing "The Violet Apple" and "The Witch" by David
Lindsay.  Chicago Press, 1976.

I read "The Violet Apple", and that was it, I don't have any
particular inclination to read anything else by him.  Perhaps I
should have paid more attention to the introduction :

    "... Lindsay [is] also a genuinely incompetent writer..."
    "... [he] still produce[s] books that are worth reading..."
    "... his books are genuinely bad, stylisticly speaking..."
    "... a twentieth century classic...
    "... he wrote all his life with and embarrassing clumsiness that
     most would-be writers outgrow at seventeen."
    "... a truly original genius..."
    "... an atrocious writer."

Maybe I'll try "Arcturus" someday after all.

jeff putnam
UUCP: steinmetz!putnam
ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 00:14:41 GMT
From: xanth!kent@rutgers.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Pern, etc.

While I'm not going to say I believe Ms. McCaffrey's celestial
mechanics either, the following, probably specious argument should
help the cooperating participant suspend disbelief long enough to
enjoy a truly well written series.

Since the red star has a very unusual orbit, it is evidently a
recent addition to the Pern system.  (After a few million years,
planets' orbits tend to mellow out a bit, and fall in line with the
crowd, so those who can do the math claim.)  Guess, then, that the
red star's orbit is a narrow ellipse, at a shallow angle to the
orbit of Pern (say 20 degrees), and cuts inside the orbit of Pern a
bit, at the inner end, and swings far outside the orbit of Pern at
the outer end, creating the long cycle between passes.  Suppose that
the year of the red star is not a multiple of the year of Pern, so
that when the red star is at the inner end of its orbit, sometimes
Pern is nearby, other times not.  Thus you get the long interval
between passes that makes the dragon riders go forward between
times.

Now, guess that the red star evolved life in orbit around another
star in a dense cluster, but was ripped free and made a wanderer by
the near passage of another star, and so recently joined the Pern
system.  The threads rode out the (very long) trip in spore form,
and when a sun's heat warmed the planet, found only the remains of
most other life to live upon.  Moreover, the original star of the
red star was a red star (is that confusing enough?); i.e., the red
"star" was the child of a long lived red dwarf star.  Since it
received relatively low heat, it retained an unusually deep
atmosphere.

While the red star is in its outer orbit (most of the time), the
heat received from Pern's sun is fairly meager.  But, just about the
time the red star cuts inside Pern's orbit, the sun's heat causes
massive storms, stirring up the thread spore into the upper
atmosphere.  Moreover, the atmosphere of the red star heats, and
expands, and _lots_ of it (in tons, not percent!) is torn free by
the solar wind, and streams away from the red star, like the tail of
a comet.  The spores are tough, the coma is diffuse, and, when Pern
intersects the tail, it also intersects the entrained spores, and
thread falls.

If you don't look at that too hard, it gives a suitable reality to a
pass; the spore would be accelerated to a significant submultiple of
light speed, electrically charged, would slow and spiral down
through Pern's magnetic field and "van Allen" belts, and so make the
crossing in relatively little time.

Comments?  (No flames, please; they are hard on the thread)   ;-)

Kent Paul Dolan
UUCP:  kent@xanth.UUCP
       seismo!decuac!edison!xanth!kent
CSNET: kent@odu.csnet
ARPA:  kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu
Voice: (804) 587-7760
USnail:P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Va 23501-1559

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 21:40:34 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@rutgers.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Pern, etc.

kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>While the red star is in its outer orbit (most of the time), the
>heat received from Pern's sun is fairly meager.  But, just about
>the time the red star cuts inside Pern's orbit, the sun's heat
>causes massive storms, stirring up the thread spore into the upper
>atmosphere.  Moreover, the atmosphere of the red star heats, and
>expands, and _lots_ of it (in tons, not percent!) is torn free by
>the solar wind, and streams away from the red star, like the tail
>of a comet.  The spores are tough, the coma is diffuse, and, when
>Pern intersects the tail, it also intersects the entrained spores,
>and thread falls.

Let's make a list of things in Earth's atmosphere that are
relatively light (lighter than spores), and should be showing up on,
say, Venus (in fact, should be streaming there in a trail whenever
we got close enough).

Anyhoo... here's what SHOULD be on the list...

   1. Air.
   2. Dust. Lots of it.
   3. Water Vapor.
   4. Orbital Satellites.
   5. Birds.
   6. Small Children.

Air is certainly less dense than the threads would be, even in spore
form.  And since the various gasses that form "air" are less massive
than spores or threads, they have less mutual attraction with the
Earth, as if that made a whole lot of difference.

Dust is slightly more massive and somewhat more dense, if more mass
was the necessary condition.

And water vapor, if you need to have something REALLY heavy to do
the trick.  (BTW - there are high winds in the middle atmosphere -
the jet stream.  I don't think there are many winds in the upper
atmosphere because of the lack of significan air pressure).

Orbital Satellites - now these are already up there, so they should
just swing away and head straight for Venus.

Birds. I figure these are about as massive as threads. Probably
wouldn't make the trip as well.

Small Children. These would probably require a catapult to get them
high enough.

THE POINT is, that I think the gravitational attraction of a planet,
even a small one, would be enough to keep any but the absolute
smallest bit of matter from getting away, unless it was helped
somewhat by a little more than strong winds.

And the threads came across as threads, not spores - unless they
somehow grew to threads while lunching on the water vapor whilst
spiralling down to Pern. Sounds unlikely, since they were described
as dry, burning things, which were incinerated easily.

Why not just read the books as if they were fantasy?

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 87 22:10:01 GMT
From: umich!jtr485@rutgers.edu (Johnathan Tainter)
Subject: Re: Pern, etc. < why the etc.?

From: W.P.Griffin <ENU2856%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
>dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque):
>>You didn't even mention other unscientific aspects of Pern.  The
>>celestial mechanics (Pern & Red Star) were absolutely ridiculous.
>I don't know enough about celestial mechanics to be certain... but
>I would not consider it impossible for this to occur.  The Red Star
>never did show a disk, after all; therefore, it was farther away
>from Pern than Luna is from Earth, but probably not as far as Mars
>is..

Who says it never showed a disk?  Just because it was called a star
does not mean it manifested as a point.  Historically, although many
people have forgotten this, any object "up there" was called a star.
Given a planet of people who have forgotten much of their heritage
and knowledge of space making no distiction between celestial bodies
would not surprise me.  Remember they managed to use a fairly weak
telescope to get surface views of the thing.  We also have no idea
how big the Red Star is, so using disk size to judge displacement
would be silly.

> Even the moon is (by Earthly standards) an enormous distance to
> travel.  Using the fastest means of travel known to man, it took
> *days*.  get to Mars would take *months*.  To me, the idea that a
> living creature could just reach across that multi-million mile
> distance is plainly ridiculous.

The biggest problem is not the distance to be travelled, nor the
time spent in space to do so, but getting free of your originating
gravity well.

If you are not going to complain about the dragons going between
then you certainly cannot complain about the thread.  If you have
_a_ creature which bridges interplanetary distances by going between
(Canth, the owner of F'nor, did just that) why couldn't the thread
be using the same form of transport?  There are limits on going
between (at least temporal, I would assume spatial also) which would
account for a reasonable proximity necessary to bridge, thus only
during close passes.

Note also, that once you allow dragons (overgrown firelizards,
really) to travel by going between it is silly to argue about
flying.  What is the constraint on flying?  That you be capable of
overcoming weight and momentum.  But if you can move an object
freely out of one gravitational frame and into another then you
already have the ability to ignore the object's mass which frees you
from weight and momentum.

Of course, all of this hinges on your acceptance of going between.
I refuse to put limits on things I know no one knows anything about.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 87 03:14:40 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Lengths of turns (was and naming children on Pern)

becky@sq.UUCP writes:
>COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>>As far as I can tell, (I haven't re-read the books in a couple of
>>years), turns on Pern seem roughly the same length as Terran
>>years.  Remember, at the beginning of the 1st book F'lar was
>>probably in his early 20's, and it seems later that he's somewhere
>>in his 40's - not "aged" yet, but certainly not as young as he
>>used to be.
>
>I read in the FORT FACT PACK, published by Fort Weyr (a Pern club),
>that Pern years were LONGER than Earth years.

Has no one on this net ever met a vigorous 45-year-old?????  It all
seems quite consistent to me.  Especially considering that much of
aging is in the mind (meaning that if a person thinks s/he's old,
s/he will act old, but a person who thinks young will keep active,
which will help keep the body fit and prevent it from growing weak
as quickly as it might).

As far as length of Pern years -- If the ``Pern years longer than
Earth years'' comes from the fact that Lords Holders can come into
their own at an age below 21, I urge reconsideration.  The
18/21/35/what-have-you lower limits on age are a product of
``modern'' civilization.  Less sophisticated civilizations tend to
do things differently, including what we consider ``adult'' things
hapopening when a person is 16-18 rather than 21.  (There are
arguments for and against both, but I suspect a basis of
qualification would be better than one of age.  On the other hand,
we then get into `quis custodiet ipsos custodes'...  [And now, we
return to your regularly scheduled SF-Lovers :-)])

Who cares, anyway?  If Earth people aren't going to have any contact
with the Pernese, why does it matter how the lengths of years
compare?  Pern is consistent with itself; that's all I ask.

Brandon

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 16:13:38 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Pern, etc. < why the etc.?

jtr485@umich.UUCP (Johnathan Tainter) writes:
>If you have _a_ creature which bridges interplanetary distances by
>going between (Canth, the owner of F'nor, did just that)

   I was always under the impression (Sorry) that F'nor and Canth
were partners.

cs2633ba@izar!charon!unmvax

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 21:17:42 GMT
From: drutx!slb@rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Rosenberg

David Liebreich <KDCLIEB%LEHICDC1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes:
>Does anyone know if there will be a fourth book in Joel Rosenberg's
>series _Guardians_of_the_Flame_, and if so, when?

According to a friend, who works in a bookstore:

Yes!  The next book is to be called "The Heir Apparent", and will be
out the end of April.

I've been waiting for this for sooooo long...

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 02:27:04 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Rosenberg

If I recall correctly, Joel said at Boskone that he'll have two
other books coming out this year after Heir Apparent; one
non-Guardians book and a fifth Guardians book (the two books are
definite, but my memory's a bit fuzzy on just when they'll be out).
If you get a chance to see him at a con, be sure to do so; he's both
funny and intelligent.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 23:33:26 GMT
From: bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: OH the embarrassment

mberkman@cc5.bbn.com writes:
> If that subject line starts you laughing, then you probably
> remember the story I am searching for.

The story was by Joe Haldeman.  It's anthologized in "Dealing in
Futures".  Can't think of the title, but I could look it up when I
get home.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  9 Apr 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #141
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #141
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:

             Books - Atwood (2 msgs) & Cherryh (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 21:05:16 GMT
From: osupyr!lum@rutgers.edu (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale

hwarkentyne@watdragon.UUCP (Kenneth Warkentyne) writes:
>Dani Zweig writes:
>> .. Comparisons [to] 1984 are inevitable, and justified.  It seems
>>clear that many of the parallels are deliberate.  But this book is
>>less fantastic than 1984, more believable, more banal.
>
> .. While the Handmaid's Tale is not as "fantastic" as 1984, banal
>is hardly a word to describe it.  Throughout the novel, we are
>aware of the climate of fear that the new Republic of Gilead has
>created and how people stifle their thoughts and emotions to go
>along with the state approved line.  The experiences of Offred in
>her duties as a handmaid are far from banal.

I have not yet read this book, but from the discussion to date, I
would guess that a more apt comparison would be to Evgeny Zamyatin's
_We_, a cautionary tale about what the Soviet union could end up
becoming if the revolution were to be (as it has been) subverted.

_HT_ sounds very much to be a cautionary about how revolutions go
awry.  Revolution is always quite dangerous, and while this may be
especially obvious in failure, it may be even more true in success.

Lum Johnson
lum[%osu-20]@ohio-state.arpa
lum@{osu-eddie|osupyr}.uucp
..!cbosgd!osu-eddie[!osupyr]!lum

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 02:39:28 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu
Subject: THE HANDMAID'S TALE by Margaret Atwood

               THE HANDMAID'S TALE by Margaret Atwood
                Fawcett Crest, 1986 (1985c)
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
                  Copyright 1987 Evelyn C. Leeper

   They say that politics make strange bedfellows, and they point to
the feminists and the fundamentalists marching side-by-side to "take
back the night" and punish all those horrible, evil pornographers.
Well, Margaret Atwood has brought new meaning to that cliche of
bedfellows.  In a world where the fertility rate has been
drastically reduced because of pollution and who knows what other
evils, the Gileadean solution is that of Rachel and her handmaid
Bilhah.  And this is made palatable by couching it as the solution
that both the anti-pornography ("AP") fundamentalists and the AP
feminists have been promoting for years.  The AP fundamentalists get
the strict morality, the elimination of divorce, the return of woman
to her role as keeper of the home.  The AP feminists get the banning
of pornography, the death penalty for rape, and the elimination of
violence against women.  So why do I have the feeling that none of
those promoting these goals today would actually want the reality
Atwood gives us?

   Actually one of the characters makes the point best.  There are
two kinds of freedom, she says, freedom to and freedom from.  Both
the AP feminists and the AP fundamentalists have been emphasizing
the freedom from: freedom from fear, freedom from violence, freedom
from anything that offends, etc.  (Sounds a bit like Franklin
Roosevelt, doesn't it?  But I digress.)  They have forgotten that
freedom from and freedom to have to balance out: an increase in one
is only achieved by a decrease in the other.  Or, as Henry Drummond
says in INHERIT THE WIND, "Yes, you can learn to fly.  But the birds
will lose their wonder, and the clouds will smell of gasoline."  In
the case of THE HANDMAID'S TALE, the freedom from fear et al has
been achieved by giving up the freedom to live as one chooses, to
work in a profession, to have financial independence, to have an
identity of one's own.  The handmaids are "Ofglen" or
"Offred"--which Atwood mislabels as patronymics--having given up
their own names when they were recruited.  The AP fundamentalists
and the AP feminists have been so busy joining forces on what they
want everyone to have freedom from that they have overlooked the
fact that they disagree on what people should have freedom to.  If
they achieve their goals they may discover that the world they have
made is not to their liking after all.

   The other interesting point about the society that Atwood
portrays is that it is very similar to another science fictional
society--that of John Norman's "Gor" series.  Bizarre though this
sounds, let's examine the two.  Atwood describes women's roles as
being one of five types: Marthas, Handmaidens, Wives, Aunts, or
Colonists.  The Marthas do the cooking and cleaning; they are the
equivalent of Norman's state slaves.  Both dress in drab colors and
do the menial work.  The Handmaidens provide procreation (and sex);
they are the equivalent of Norman's pleasure slaves.  Both dress in
red.  The Wives are the equivalent of Norman's free
companions--honored and respected, living their lives on a pedestal.
The Aunts are the equivalent of the slaves who train the pleasure
slaves (I don't recall if there is a specific term for them).  The
Colonists have no direct parallel, though a disobedient slave on Gor
does end up doing some sort of unpleasant/dangerous work.  While
it's true that these roles are not unpredictable, the parallels
between Gilead and Gor are thought-provoking, to say the least.  Add
to this that Atwood, as part of the main character's description of
her indoctrination, includes graphic descriptions of violent sex,
and one wonders if those who would ban Norman's books would do the
same to THE HANDMAID'S TALE.  Consider the following excerpt from a
proposed anti-pornography ordinance: "Pornography is the sexually
explicit subordination of women, graphically depicted, whether in
pictures or in words, that also includes one or more of the
following: ... women are presented dehumanized as sexual objects,
things or commodities...."  (Note that the portrayal does not have
to be favorable.) My reading of this is that THE HANDMAID'S TALE
would be considered pornographic by this definition.  All this
indicates, of course, is that this definition is crap.

   I haven't said much about the book itself.  That's because the
plot itself is not that original, or enthralling, or amazing.  It's
what the book makes you think about that counts.  Atwood makes you
think about what can lead to this society and, conversely, what the
actions and attitudes of today can lead to.  It doesn't bear
multiple readings the way a novel like LAST AND FIRST MEN does.
It's not a masterpiece of literary style.  But the thoughts it
generates will stay with you long after the details of the book
itself have been forgotten.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 87 18:43:50 CST
From: ops@ncsc.ARPA (Tharp)
Subject: C.J. Cherryh (long)

   C.J. Cherryh has indicated in interviews and articles that her
"future history", set partly in the Union-Alliance universe of
DOWNBELOW STATION is something that she has planned in great detail.
Many of her science fiction novels are set in this future, which is
so intricately detailed "in hundreds of spiral notebooks" that she
knows what ships arrived at which planets or stations when, what
cargo they were carrying and who was on them.  I am reminded of
Agatha Christie's method of keeping track of the characters in her
mysteries by plotting their movements on the blackboards that
covered three walls of her workroom.

   I do not have a complete chronology, though there is a partial
timeline line published in ANGEL WITH A SWORD.  I haven't read WAVE
WITHOUT A SHORE or VOYAGER IN NIGHT, so I do not know where or if
they fit into Cherryh's timeline.  I haven't read all of Cherryh's
books nor am I privy to any privileged information, save what can be
gleaned from the books themselves, so the following placement and
discussion is simply what I have learned.  I am always ready to
learn more, especially about Ms. Cherryh's work.

   HESTIA                  occurs during Sol's expansion, after the
   CUCKOO'S EGG            discovery of Pell but before the discovery
                           of jump

   DOWNBELOW STATION       occurs during the Union-Sol hostilities,
   MECHANTER'S LUCK        before the founding of the Alliance by
                           Signy Mallory and Konstantin

   40,000 IN GEHENNA       begins during Union's experiments with
                           lab-born humans (azi) and ends after the
                           Union and Alliance have reached "detente"

   THE PRIDE OF CHANUR     occurs simultaneously with the events of
   CHANUR'S VENTURE        40,000 IN GEHENNA, according to the
                           Author's
   THE KIF STRIKE BACK     Note at the end of THE KIF STRIKE BACK, but
   CHANUR'S HOMECOMING     whether near the beginning or the end is
                           not clear

   THE FADED SUN: KESRITH  occurs at the end of Alliance-Sharrh
   THE FADED SUN: SHON'JIR conflict
   THE FADED SUN: KUTATH

   PORT ETERNITY           an unlinked novel occurring in Unionside
                           space

   SERPENT'S REACH         occurs in Unionside space after after the
                           Union and Alliance have reached "detente"
                           and before the Alliance-Hanan conflicts

   BROTHERS OF EARTH       occurs during the Alliance-Hanan conflict,
                           possibly near the end of the thousand-year
                           war

   ANGEL WITH A SWORD      occurs during the thousand-year Alliance-
                           Hanan conflict, on a planet which was
                           settled and abandoned by Union and ceded
                           to the Sharrh during the Alliance-Sharrh
                           wars

   SUNFALL                 occurs near the end of the future history

   CUCKOO'S EGG takes place early in the expansion.  The human crew
of the ship, possibly early explorers, had little or no experience
in meeting alien species, yet retaliated only in self- defense.  The
impassable distances of light space play an important role in the
book, indicating that jump was not yet in use by humans.  It is
conceivable that the human ship was lost, as there is no mention of
Duun's race in novels taking place later in Cherryh's timeline.

   HESTIA was settled early in Sol's expansion, apparently after the
discovery of indigenous life on Pell, as the the discovery of
Hestian natives did not appear to be momentous.  Again, the vast
distances of light space play an important role in the book,
indicating that jump was not yet in use by humans.

   At the time of DOWNBELOW STATION and MERCHANTER'S LUCK, rebel
merchanter's had expanded further from Earth, founding unauthorized
stations and colonies.  The Earth Company, withdrawing from the
Beyond, alienated and abandoned her stations and colonies and turned
her once proud exploration forces into a police force to keep the
colonies and stations in line.  Some of the colonies rebelled and
organized, became the Union, and expanded further into the Beyond,
using humans (azi) grown in labs and nurtured from birth in vast
government nurseries to force population growth.  A society evolved
"whose way of life was stars, infinities, unlimited growth, and time
which looked to forever.  Earth did not understand them."  When
hostilities finally broke out, it was a bitter confrontation between
two alien societies who had little or no understanding for one
another.

   40,000 IN GEHENNA begins in Unionside space.  The Gehennan
colony, an experimental settlement composed of Union military, Union
citizens and the "non-citizen" lab-bred azi was purposely abandoned
by Unionside.  The azi developed a symbiotic relationship with the
intelligent indigenous species, the calaban.  Generations later,
Gehenna was recontacted by the Alliance.  The Gehennan policy, which
set guidelines for human settlement on inhabited planets, resulted
from this.

   The Chanur series takes place in Compact Space, which lies
opposite Sol from Alliance and Union space, simultaneously with the
events in occurring, I believe, near the end of 40,000 IN GEHENNA.
Though Alliance and Union are cooperative, somewhat like current
superpowers, there is still enough conflict for Tully to warn
Pyanfar against possible human treachery.  (I believe Tully is
Alliance, based on what is known about the the psychological
conditioning of azi and Unionside citizens.)

   The FADED SUN trilogy takes place after the Alliance-Sharrh wars.
Union figures only slightly in this war as the area of conflict lay
on the Alliance border away from Unionside.

   In SERPENT'S REACH, merchanter families from Unionside
established a symbiotic relationship with an insect-like society,
the majat, which refused to allow further human colonization in
Hydra space.  Lab-bred humans, alpha and beta azi, were used by the
families to expand while excluding Unionside and Alliance.  When
society broke down, hostilities kept the Union and Alliance from
moving in and allowed time to rebuild the majat hives and human
society.

   BROTHERS OF EARTH takes place on a nearly forgotten Hanan colony
during the thousand-year Alliance-Hanan conflict when a
disillusioned Hanan officer and an Alliance officer become stranded.

   MEROVINGAN NIGHTS: ANGEL WITH A SWORD is a shared-world and may
not conform to Cherryh's timeline as more writers contribute to the
series.  The first novel contains an extensive appendix which
details Merovingan's history.  Familiarity with Cherryh's universe
may add some understanding of the Merovingan mythos and culture.  On
the timeline, ANGEL WITH A SWORD occurs during the thousand-year
Alliance-Hanan conflict, on a planet which was settled and abandoned
by Union and ceded to the Sharrh during the Alliance-Sharrh wars.

   SUNFALL occurs near the end of the future history on the third
planet of the star Sol.

   One thing that binds Cherryh's novels together is her use of
"jump" as the transport between stars.  Most of the star-faring
races in Cherryh's books use jump and either developed it
independently or received it from a more advanced race.  Again, most
of the star-faring races using jump experience some disorientation
throughout it.  Humans face extreme psychological distress, even
madness, when faced with jump without drugs to temper the process.
It has been noted that the more alien (to humans) the race, the less
distress is experienced.  Note the difference in reaction between
the Hani and the Kif.  The Mri of the FADED SUN trilogy do not
experience this disorientation and teach Sten Duncan to go through
jump.  This indicates to me that human reaction to jump is a matter
of perception and philosophy, rather than biology.  In PORT
ETERNITY, though the crew are lab- born and considered somewhat less
that human, they experience difficulty with jump until they alter
their perception of reality and learn to cope with the
disorientation of jump, after the ship becomes lost within a jump.
The two non-lab-bred humans also learn to alter their perceptions to
cope with jump.

   I would like to continue this posting later and talk about
Cherryh's alien societies, perceptions, and philosophies.  I would
also like to talk about her archtypical characters, typified by
Melein, Morgaine and Pyanfar, by Niun, Vanye, and Pyanfar's husband,
and by Sten Duncan, Vanye's cousin, and Tully.

   Thank you.  Interested and interesting responses anticipated with
pleasure.  Flames and nit-picking take up disk space.

Jessie Tharp
ops@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 15:53:33 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: C.J. Cherryh (long)

>(I believe Tully is Alliance, based on what is known about the
>psychological conditioning of azi and Unionside citizens.)

I thought it was clear that Tully was Terran, looking for allies
against Union and Alliance, in or just after the war featured in
Downbelow Station.

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  9 Apr 87 0845-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #142
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 87 0845-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #142
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 12:20:48 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes:
>ecl@mtgzy.UUCP writes some material which makes me quite unhappy.
>It addresses some things which I have had no control over, and I am
>being penalized through no fault of my own.  I happen to be one of
>the unfortunate people who do not meet the standards of what they
>think is deserving of admittance to Boskone.

You are the one reading in this "deserving" stuff.  With normal
growth, the attendance at the 1988 Boskone would be 4,500.  It has
to be cut to more like 1,500.  There are already something like 4 or
5 hundred members counting the Boskone life members and those who
joined at the 1987 Boskone.  This situation is going to cause a lot
of unhappy people, no matter what.

>>People Who Have Purchased Art at Any of the Last 3 Boskones
>[will be admitted]
>...  I guess being rich is the real requirement here.  ...

I suggest you think about what your opinion of this would be if you
were an artist.  Also consider that much less high quality art to be
enjoyed by all members of Boskone who bother to go to the art show
will be brought if it can't be sold.

>>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
>>..We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers.
>Why wasn't this ever instituted?  I don't think I would have
>initiated a convention *without* this to begin with!  Stupid move
>on NESFA's part.

I happen to think this is a particularly obnoxious rule.  What is
magic about 18?  Don't you think people should be judged as
individuals?  This is the first age based rule related to Boskone
that I can remember.  For example, as far as I know, there has never
been a "children's" rate for Boskone.  You are either a member or
not.  True, some programming is planned for particular age groups,
such as baby-sitting and a track of young fan programming but an
effort is made to avoid arbitrary age rules.

>>8) We will offer refunds to all those who have already purchased a
>>membership.
>Read as:  Anyone who doesn't like it, can leave right now.  We won't
>take no guff.

I think most people involved in runing Boskone think of themselves
as innocent people who have been screwed just as much as you do.
Why should they take any guff?  Constructive suggestions would be
welcome, however.  And some criticism is deserved, for the decision
to go to nameless badges and not beefing up security, for example.

>>9)Badge-checking will be carried out in all function areas ...
>What gets me is that this all seems like logical things to do.  Why
>wasn't it done in the past?  I guess it takes a real crisis to make
>Boskone officials think.  ...

Actually, with most hotels, it's probably impossible to check badges
at *all* function areas because there are a lot of little rooms that
open off of inherently public corridors.  However, you can try for
the bigger areas.  There has always been some badge checking.
Boskone 87 had the same number of guards as Boskone 86 but poorer
security organization and supervision.  "Boskone officials" think
about these things quite a bit but there was no reason to anticipate
the problems that occured.  "Boskone officials" also worry about
appearing to be fascist until its clear that the alternative is
worse.

>Aside from that, just what is "Serious Science Fiction" anyway? ...
>...  This smacks of Sci-Fi fundamentalism to me, folks.

I understand things to refer to the "serious sf *fan*" not "serious
*science fiction*" although I don't pretend to be able to define
either very well.

>Has anyone thought to ask the membership of NESFA?  ...  I realize
>that the convention is run by a select bunch of people, and what
>they can handle is what they can handle.  ...

All this was debated and approved at an open NESFA business meeting.
(I think its been at least ten years since there was a closed NESFA
business meeting.)  Although there is a large carry over of people
working on different areas, Boskone is run by a Chairman, or
co-Chairmen who are appointed some months before the previous
Boskone and ratified by a 2/3 vote of the club.  The co-chairs of
the 1988 Boskone are Jim and Laurie Mann.  They wrote up these
rules, partly based on material appearing in APA:NESFA and their
discussions with others, and they got them through the club.

No changes of this magnitude could happen without club approval.

>I understand that there was a lot of property damage done to the
>hotel.

Actually, it was pretty minor damage but of such a nature that it
effected the fire alarm system so that it was very hard to reset in
the areas of the vandalism and the fire department was serious
considering ordering the evacuation of some floors withing the
hotel.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 17:45:57 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
>tyg@lll-crg.UUCP (Tom Galloway) writes:
>>And given that they have to reduce attendance so drastically, can
>>anyone offer any reason why they shouldn't attempt to reduce it to
>>those people who are coming because it's a science fiction
>>convention and not because it's a party?
>
>With the solution they've proposed, they're also knocking off a lot
>of genuinely interested science fiction readers, and they're still
>letting in the local partiers who've gotten in at the door the last
>few years.

The reduction has to be so drastic that a lot of genuinely
interested science fiction readers who want to come to Boskone will
be unable to do so no matter what.  I think the rules will
discourage people who are just partiers and I don't know of any
magic way to completely exclude them with the information available.

>Though I don't remember the exact rules they listed, I think that
>the only way I could ever get into a Boskone in my life would be to
>join a

You are assuming that these rules, adopted just for 1988, will be in
force for the rest of your life.  I don't think that is very likely.

>science fiction club, something I have little desire to do.  Of
>course, if I became a writer, I wouldn't want to go.

Why is it that you think you would not want to go if you were a
writer?  Many do along with publsihers, agents, etc., and a few of
these do nothing much during Boskone but engage in business with
other professionals.

>    In any case, to the point of your posting, which I guess is the
>reason a lot of people are upset, is: is there a way to cut the con
>down to 2000 without a) letting in people who want a party, not a
>con, or b) screwing over people who are genuinely interested.  I
>think a major part of this should be mandatory pre-registration.
>That way, anyone who

It is very likely that registration will be allowed at the door,
except for professionals, as the cut off will probably be met with
pre-registration.

But why are you so certain that the pre-registrants would magically
be people who are genuinely interested?  Are you sure that none of
the hundreds that registered for the 1988 Boskone at the 1987
Boskone are just in it for booze and parties?

>would suffer on account b would have only themselves to blame.
>Limiting

You may think they have only themselves to blame but you should have
heard the people phoning up during the 1987 Boskone, bitching about
how high the at the door registration rate was, and when told that
it had been lower to pre-register complained bitterly that it was
NESFA's fault that they only learned about Boskone a few days/weeks
before the con.

>costumes/weapons sounds to me like something that is necessary,
>just to keep a hotel.  And there's no reason the con can't be
>first-register first-get in.  That way, it would be cut to 2000,
>and though it would

From the votes, about 10% of the NESFA voting members favored
first-come first-served.  90% or so ended up voting for the rules
that have been adopted.  Remember, these are for 1988 only and will
be reconsidered thereafter.

>still be hard to get in, it wouldn't be impossible, and certainly
>wouldn't be due to any snobbery/elitism.  And if it is found
>necessary

Why isn't favoring those who happen to be "in the know" and get in
their registration early a form of elitism?  Of course the first to
know would be SF club members, particularly NESFA members, a group
you say you are not interested in joining.  What about people who
genuinely don't know if they will be able to make it to the
convention?  Would you make an exception for someone who could prove
they had travelled hundreds of miles and showed up without a
membership?  Are you assuming these rules will be inflexibly
enforced and if so why are you making that assumption?

If you think people in NESFA are scared of being thought elitist,
you should note that the graffiti, etc., around Boskone would lead
one to think NESFA has already been judged hopelessly elistist and
thus has nothing to lose by discrimination.

>to give preference to certain groups of people, such as writers,
>people who have spent gobs of $, or whatever, then a quota system
>could be implemented, or the forms could be sent to them earlier
>...

No special form has ever been required to register for Boskone.  All
that is needed is a name, address, and the registration fee.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 18:00:20 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Boskone

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes:
>As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory
>solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships.
>Perhaps let

Gee, lots of other people who contribute to this group seem to think
that basing anything on money spent or the like is highly
discriminatory and elitist.

>everyone pay what they feel a membership is worth, and a month or
>two before the con, refund all but the top 2000 bids (ties to be
>decided by postmark date).  Perhaps also set up an area for
>"scalpers" so that people can get memberships at the door.

This does not work very well due to problems with hotel
reservations, travel plans, and just plans in general.  It would
bias things towards those with lots of idle time who would not care
if they did not know what they were doing that weekend until just a
month or two before.

>a higher membership fee, which would discourage randoms and
>non-serious attendees.  It would also give NESFA cash with which to
>hire people to help with the con.

To actually pay prevailing salaries for everyone working on the con
would probably multiply the registration fee by a factor of ten,
brining it up to some typical mundane convention fees.  To have some
paid and some unpaid people working on the con invites other
problems of voluntees wondering why they shouldn't get more.
Besides, its hard to believe that paid staff would ever work as hard
as the volunteers do on Boskone.

>I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering to
>help out.

I don' know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not so
inclined.  Most people who work on the convention do so because they
enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than because of some
feeling of guilt.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 18:59:07 GMT
From: scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.)
Subject: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

So then, as a clarification, tyg said,
> Dan, I'm sorry to have to do this under this subject; I'd planned
> to incorporate what I'm about to say into a much longer article on
> Boskone and the way people are reacting to the changes. But your
> article was a reasonably considerate and well-written comment
> about how you don't like the "secret society" and "incestuous"
> attitudes that you perceive the committee having.

So I said,

The perception is entirely correct and the considerateness therefore
entirely inappropriate.

> The only problem is that you've got it all wrong; at least the
> motivation behind the decisions made for next year.

The alleged motivations are of marginal relevance when the result is
that half the people who want to go get discriminated against, and
no attempt is made to ensure that the half that goes is a
representative sample of the whole.

> Everybody, please read this; The committee did not decide to cut
> next year's Boskone from 4200 people to 1500-2000 people. The fact
> that the Sheraton does not want the con back, and that the only
> two other hotels in Boston that can physically hold a greater than
> 2000 person convention will not allow the con to be held there.
> The Boskone committee, due to decisions that they *had no control
> over* have NO choice but to cut attendance by 2200-2700 people; a
> factor of between 50 and 60% roughly.

This is untrue.  People almost always have choices.  The only
absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and be held in
Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling hotels.  All other
requirements are flexible.

Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of
~1800.  Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other?  Across
the street from each other?  You could obviously just become a
distributed system.

Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this
willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands: any
group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of
gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con.
That's what I meant by the subject header.

> this was not something that was done by the committee), can you or
> anyone come up with a way of encouraging new people to come that
> makes any sense when the committee has to somehow get over 2000
> people who were there last year not to show up next year?

Like I said, use 3 hotels.
If that means you have to charge more, then charge more.  That
method of screening is at least socially accepted in capitalist
America.  People can find competing parties for cheaper, but they
probably can't find competing SF cons.

> To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by
> over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the Boskone
> committee.  They have *no* choice in this.

This is patently false.  There is more than 1 small hotel in Boston.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 22:47:51 GMT
From: uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: CruiseCon

bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau ~) writes:
[Regarding new Boskone guidelines:]
>...however, I was struck by the distinctly unfriendly attitude
>directed toward outsiders and the feeling of regimentation conveyed
>by the rules.

   The above comment should be read and re-read several times by
that guy who keeps repeating "Stop whining, they *have* to do it."
Sure, measures must be taken.  The announcement *does* come off as
snobby, incestuous, and whatever all those other people said that
seems to be offending some people.  (And note that the restrictions
seem reasonable to me *personally*.)

>One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is the
>weekend cruise...  I realize it's more expensive than renting hotel
>facilities, but if you really want to go after a more "mature"
>crowd, maybe that's an advantage.  Has this been tried before?

   Sign me up!

Joel Plutchak
uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster
ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu
BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  9 Apr 87 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #143
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 87 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #143
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:

          Books - Moorcock & The King in Yellow (8 msgs) &
                  Long Novels & A Recommendation &
                  Humorous SF & Heart of the Comet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 03:48:31 GMT
From: osupyr!twd@rutgers.edu (The Twid)
Subject: Michael Moorcock

First of all, Trivia.

  Michael Moorcock wrote the lyrics to the sone 'Veteran of the
Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult (off of 'Heavy Metal' movie.

Now a request.

   Could someone tell me what Moorcock has done since the Elric
Series??

   I know he has continued the 'Eternal Champion' stuff, but I would
like to get a listing of each book and a short description of the
story, if possible.

Thanks for the help....

Todd Dailey
twd%osupyr.uucp
...!cbatt!osupyr!twd

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 15:21:20 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Story Request

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Can someone help me?  I'm looking for a story I once read -- in a
>magazine I think.  It concerns a book (story? play?) which nobody
>has ever succeeded in reading to the end.  The story contains a
>snipet of the play, which seems to be based on "The King in
>Yellow".

The story is "The Yellow Sign" by Robert W. Chambers. It was
published originally in 1895 in the collection called "The King In
Yellow And Other Stories" and is (probably still) available from
Dover Press.  An excerpt:

   "...Night fell and the hours dragged on, but still we murmured
   to each other of the King and the Pallid Mask, and midnight
   sounded from the misty spires in the fog-wrapped city. We spoke
   of Hastur and of Cassilda, while outside the fog rolled against
   the blank windowpanes as the cloud waves roll and break on the
   shores of Hali..."

Another place name from "The King In Yellow" is Carcosa. Chambers
took much inspiration from the writings of Ambrose Bierce, and the
place name Carcosa is from Bierce's story "Inhabitants of Carcosa."

Chambers was an influence on H. P. Lovecraft, among others. If I'm
not mistaken, Hastur, Carcosa, and Hali all make appearances in
Lovecraft's Lovecraft. The Yellow Sign itself is a hieroglyph in a
NONHUMAN language engraved on a piece of jewelry. There are hints of
other worlds or realities breaking into this one and there are human
minions of the forces of those worlds in our world. The influences
on Lovecraft are obvious.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 15:28:24 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Story Request

A correction: in rereading your request, I think the story you're
looking for may NOT be "The Yellow Sign" but some story by an author
other than Chambers that refers to "The King In Yellow." Possibly
you'll find the specific story you're looking for in some Arkham
Press publication.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 17:54:47 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Common names (was Re: Story Request)

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
> [ talking about R. W. Chambers' "The King in Yellow" ]
>Chambers was an influence on H. P. Lovecraft, among others. If I'm
>not mistaken, Hastur, Carcosa, and Hali [place names in TKIY -- SG]
>all make appearances in Lovecraft's Lovecraft. The Yellow Sign
>itself is a hieroglyph in a NONHUMAN language engraved on a piece
>of jewelry. There are hints of other worlds or realities breaking
>into this one and there are human minions of the forces of those
>worlds in our world. The influences on Lovecraft are obvious.

Hastur, Hali, and Carcosa also show up in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
Darkover series and her brother Paul Edwin Zimmer's Dark Border
series. Was Chambers the first to use them? Are they from any filk
source? Who else has used them? Gosh.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 00:27:36 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Common names (was Re: Story Request)

Shoshana Green writes:
>Hastur, Hali, and Carcosa also show up in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
>Darkover series and her brother Paul Edwin Zimmer's Dark Border
>series. Was Chambers the first to use them? Are they from any flk
>source? Who else has used them? Gosh.

Let me ask my question more explicitly, because I really would like
to know.

"The King in Yellow" (1895) is both the name of the anthology and
the book-within-a-book that much of the anthology is about.  We
never see the contents of the book -- reading it drives one insane
-- but we are privy to some of the readers' musings.  The names
mentioned include: Hastur, Cassilda, Camilla, Alar, Carcosa, Lake
Hali.  (Clearly we have the makings of one good ballad here.)

Did H.P. Lovecraft and Marion Zimmer Bradley both draw names from
this source, or are all three drawing from an older source?  (No,
not *that* old!)

Part of the reason I think there might be another source is that I
remember reading a story (my Story Request) which featured a book
which much resembled "The King in Yellow" except that the only curse
on it seemed to be that it was impossible to finish the book.  This
story did feature a lengthy excerpt which included yet other names
familiar from Darkovan books, but the only one I remember for sure
was Alton.  On the other hand, this story may have been written
*later* than "The Sword of Aldones" -- I don't remember.

(As I said in my original post, the man trying to read the book
fails to finish it because of the flickering of the lights.  The
story ends with his host's explanation of why, because of special
wiring, it is impossible that the lights were flickering.)

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 01:58:47 GMT
From: reed!soren@rutgers.edu (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Story Request

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>reading to the end.  The story contains a snipet of the play, which
>seems to be based on "The King in Yellow".
>
>Can someone point me to the story?

Yes!  The story is by James Blish.  I believe it appears in a
collection of fantasy stories entitled "Alchemy and Academe", edited
(I think) by Anne McCaffrey and someone else.

But what is the significance of "The King in Yellow"?  Does it exist
in the "real" world?  I got the impression that it did.

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 09:00:23 GMT
From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: King in Yellow (was Re: Story Request)

soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes:
>>reading to the end.  The story contains a snipet of the play,
>>which seems to be based on "The King in Yellow".
> Yes!  The story is by James Blish.  I believe it appears in a
> collection of fantasy stories entitled "Alchemy and Academe",
> edited (I think) by Anne McCaffrey and someone else.

I can confirm that the Blish story appears in "Alchemy and Academe".

In addition to the Lovecraft, Bradley, Zimmer and Blish stories
already mentioned, Ian Watt-Evans has a four-book series which
features the King in Yellow, the Pallid Mask, Carcosa and the Book
of Silence.  The King appears in all four of the books, but the
other aspects of this "modern myth" don't appear in the first book
at all.

Offhand I can only remember the titles of the first and last books:
"The Lure of the Basilisk" and "The Book of Silence".

This makes at least five authors who have used the King in Yellow or
Hali/Carcosa in some form or another.

Stu Friedberg
{seismo,allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 18:48:43 GMT
From: dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: King in Yellow (was Re: Story Request)

stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>Ian Watt-Evans has a four-book series which features the

The name is Lawrence. I think you've incorporated the name "Ian
Watson" into this as well; no surprise, as they're alphabetically
adjacent.

>King in Yellow, the Pallid Mask, Carcosa and the Book of Silence.
>The King appears in all four of the books, but the other aspects of
>this "modern myth" don't appear in the first book at all.
>
>Offhand I can only remember the titles of the first and last books:
>"The Lure of the Basilisk" and "The Book of Silence".

The series (_The Adventures of Garth the Overman_) goes as follows:
   The Lure of the Basilisk
   The The Seven Altars of Dusarra
   The Sword of Bheleu
   The Book of Silence

I haven't read them myself, but I understand that they have alot to
recommend them. I like Watt-Evan's lighter works, and think that
he's a good critic.  He used to write a very good column for the
_Comic Buyer's Guide_.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 20:25:42 GMT
From: rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: The King In Yellow: Names

I did a little background checking on the names Carcosa, Hastur, and
Hali as they are used in Ambrose Bierce's stories:

 Carcosa is a "famous" and "ancient" city that the narrator in
 Bierce's story "An Inhabitant Of Carcosa" is trying to get back to.

 In more than one story, Bierce quotes someone named Hali. From "An
 Inhabitant Of Carcosa:"

    "...Pondering these words of Hali (whom God rest)..."

 From his story "Haita The Shepherd:"

    "...He rose with the sun and went forth to pray at the shrine
     of Hastur, the god of shepherds..."

I have no idea whether or not someone named Hali really existed, or
whether a god of shepherds named Hastur really exists in some
mythology. I suspect not. The names do not seem to have the horrific
connotations that Chambers (and later authors) ascribed to them.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Apr 1987 12:46:53-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong novels/stories

I've read so many notes on short stories and how much people like
them.  And so many other notes on how bad some series of novels are,
especially after the first one.  It's time to say something about
why I like to read long novels and multiple-volume stories.

When I pick a work of fiction to read for enjoyment, I tend to
choose novels with lots of pages -- over 600 pages is a general
guideline for me.  Otherwise, I look for a multi-volume set with a
good reputation ("The Belgariad," for example).  I'm not one of
those readers who practically consumes books at the rate of one per
day.  I've found I get a lot more enjoyment from a good book if I
read it slowly, with occasional breaks to mentally digest the story.
That gives me time to sort out the reasons why I like the story,
and/or the reasons why I don't like it.  If I have a good, long
novel in front of me, I get myself ready to really get involved in
the story.  If the author provides enough meat for this kind of
reflection, the novel is a success for me.  Sometimes I'm
disappointed, and I cannot continue or finish without a great deal
of effort.  Since I read for enjoyment, I don't often invest that
much effort.

But with enough challenge and some character development, I can sink
into a book (or series) for a week or longer.  I carry the book
around with me wherever I go, reading in every spare minute.  I used
to get in trouble in school when, as a kid, I hid my book under the
desk (remember the kind with the top that flipped up to put your
papers inside?)  One day, I sneaked a few pages in while the teacher
was demonstrating penmanship on the board.  All I can remember is
that when I looked up, there was silence in the room and the teacher
was no longer in front of the blackboard.  I looked up, and she was
standing right behind my shoulder.  "Is that a good book, Mary?" she
asked.  The entire class started laughing.  Boy, was I embarrassed.
And then I had to write "I will not read in class" one hundred times
in cursive for the next day.

Anyhow, I prefer my books long, even if they are heavier to carry
around -- at least once I find something I like, I don't have to
choose another so quickly.  And I get a chance to react to the story
in a meaningful way.  Of course, when I get close to the end of a
book I like, I delay the ending as much as I can.

By the way, I'm enjoying The Belgariad, despite the cardboard
characters and obvious plot mechanics.  It has enough complexity to
make me want to finish it.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 01:00:34 GMT
From: dzoey@umd5.umd.edu (Joe Herman)
Subject: Re: A Voyage to Arcturus

If you liked Voyage to Arcturus, you may like "A Fish Dinner at
Memmisson".  The author escapes me, but it's the same person who
wrote "The Worm Oroborous."  Fish Dinner is in the middle of a
extremeley loosely connected trilogy.

We had to read both Arturus and Fish Dinner in English last
semester.  Arcturus caused some pretty strong reactions in class.
Most people either really loved it (a clear minority) or royally
despised it (the majority).  Personally I disliked Arcturus, but the
philosophy is interesting.  I just thought the book was pointless.
(gee, it's nice to be able to say this without 1/4 of the classes
shouting back at me :-) )

A note about Fish Dinner.  It requires a couple of reads.  The first
time I went through it, the writing style discusted me, but on
rereading, you really begin to appreciate the book.  It's not for
everyone.  Also, Fish Dinner is now out of print, but you can
probably find a copy in a used bookstore.

Joe Herman
dzoey@umd5.umd.edu
dzoey@umdd.bitnet
seismo!umd5.umd.edu!dzoey

P.S.  Thanx to whoever recommended "A Voice for Princess".  It was
the most enjoyable read I've had in a long time, especially the
section with the dragon that spoke in alliteration.  Hillarious!

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 15:33:59 GMT
From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard)
Subject: Humorous SF

And now for something totally different, I'm looking for more funny
SF writers along the lines of Sheckley, Tenn, Adams, and Harrison. I
have read a couple of Asprin's "Myth..." books; I found them
mytherably predictable and trite.  Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Lauri
p.s. This is my first posting so please excuse any blatant mistakes.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 02:36:53 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: Heart of the Comet

If you haven't yet read Benford/Brin's _Heart_of_the_Comet_, you'll
probably want to skip this article.

I finished HotC about a week ago, and so have had time for it to
percolate around in my head for a while.  What did *you* think of
it?  I was disappointed.

Maybe I've become jaded, but it seems to me that there wasn't much
*new* in this book.  Sure, it was supposed to have a basis in "hard
science" and that limits how "fantastic" it can be, but I'm talking
originality here.  Some of the ideas seemed to be almost direct
ripoffs from other books (like what happened to Virginia seemed
suspiciously similar to the fate of Robin Broadhead of _Gateway_
fame).  And yet another immortal?  Gads!  How many of our heroes
just happened to fall into that category?

One thing that irks me is that I did like the characters of Saul,
Virginia, and Carl, but it didn't seem to me that they never got
much development.  I wanted to have fun with these characters, but
just about everything boiled down to some stroke of luck by Saul, or
some fit of hacking par excellent on the part of Virginia.  Sure,
there was a lot of stress, but the answers always came too easily or
too suddenly.

OK, that's all I have to say.  Anyone want to expand on or rebut
what I've said?  Oh, BTW, how many noticed the reference to the
"Uplift Institute?"

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM
{cci632,cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,uiucdcs,umcp-cs}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  9 Apr 87 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #144
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 87 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #144
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:

      Books - Alexander (3 msgs) & Cooper & Farmer (2 msgs) &
              Heinlein (2 msgs) & Keyes (3 msgs) & Lee &
              L'Engle & Nelson & Wolfe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 18:50:55 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: The Black Cauldron

bcm@cblpe.UUCP (55216-Bob Morman) writes:
>rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:
>>I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series
>>) has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name
>>of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed
>>here.
>Is this the same Black Cauldron as the recent Walt Disney animated
>movie ?

First of all, folks, it's Lloyd Alexander, not Alexander Lloyd.

Yes, the Disney movie was based on the "Book of Three" series, one
volume of which is called "The Black Cauldron". HOWEVER...

It should be noted that Mr. Alexander had nothing whatsoever to do
with the movie. He sold the rights years ago, it languished for a
*long* time, Disney finally decided to make the film; he had no
input on it at all. He only knew they were doing it when he read
about it in the papers. I know this because my college sf club spent
an enjoyable afternoon at his house about two months before the
movie came out, and of course we asked about it.

I am making such a big deal of this because I found the movie a
*terrible* adaptation of the books. In itself it was fair-to-ok, but
the Book of Three it was NOT. As a Lloyd Alexander fan, I don't want
people who haven't read the series thinking it is as trite as the
movie was. It's not.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 04:31:59 GMT
From: ps160bag@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU
Subject: Re: Two Fantasy Writer Inquiries

rhr@osupyr.UUCP (The Fugitive Guy) writes:
> I was wondering if Alexander Lloyd ( of the Black Cauldron series
> ) has written any other fantasy works. I would also like the name
> of the books in the Black Cauldron series that are not listed
> here.
The books not listed here are
_The Book of Three_
_The Castle of Llyr_
There is also a book of short stories that I have never been able to
find.  As for other fantasy, there is the trilogy about the Beggar
Queen, but it is more otherworld historical than Fantasy proper.
Those books are _The Beggar Queen_, The Kestrel and one other that I
can't recall at the moment.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 15:04:01 EDT
From: the Shadow <jeffh@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Lloyd Alexander

There is another book by Lloyd Alexander which no one has mentioned
yet That is _The_Marvelous_Misadventures_of_Sebastian_ .  I read
this when I was quite young (no more than 18, I'm sure ;^).  I
rediscovered it in the University of Arizona library, and
thouroughly enjoyed re-reading it.  It doesn't have the depth of The
Chronicles of Prydain, either in its characters or its background
and it has very little in the way of magic (a certain violin which
just happens to fall into our hero's musically-inclined hands).
However, it is very fun fantasy story, full of all sorts of cliched
adventure and romance.  I highly recommend it to anyone who needs a
break from *serious* reading.

There was another one called _Time_Cat_, which I seem to remember
reading, although I can't remember any of the details.  That's
annoying ... I must be getting old.

regards,
Jeff Hanes
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh
ARPA:   <jeffh@brl.arpa>
USnail: 1447 Harford Sq
        Edgewood, MD  21040

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 09:55:09 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Susan Cooper's The Dark Is Rising series

From:   ucla-cs!srt     (Scott R. Turner)
> Hmm.  The current release has "The Dark is Rising" as the first
> book.  Are you sure "Over Sea, Under Stone" isn't the English
> title for one of the other books?  Though it does sound from the
> title like it might explain the events leading up to "Greenwitch".

Yes, OVER SEA, UNDER STONE is really the first book in the series
(though the name of the series is taken from the second). The reason
it's not in "the current release" is a rather simple one.  OVER was
originally published (in the US) by Harcourt, Brace, and the rest by
Atheneum. HB retained the paperback rights to OVER for themselves,
while Atheneum published the others in trade paper, and recently
sold mass market rights to Collier. OVER is in print currently in
paperback (the mid-sized paperback many children's books come in ---
about the size of the digest magazines) from Harcourt's
Harvest/Voyager imprint. Since the others are from a different
publisher, they tend to ignore the fact that there is another book
in the series.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 09:55:22 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer

jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes:
>Hello out there in net-land. I just finished reading Phillip Jose'
>Farmer's "Riverworld series". (To Your Scattered Bodies Go, et al)
>and I was confused on a few points. I was hoping that someone more
>literate than I could answer them.
>
>1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood
>about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and
>that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left
>somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections.

My impression was that they did it from mainly altruistic motives.
This is probably wrong because:

1.  Farmer seldom has anyone do anything out of pure altruism, they
usually have an ulterior motive.

2.  The ending of the book was confusing and the explanation
(actually, several contradictory explanations) were not conducive to
easy understanding.  See my comment at the end of this posting.

>C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in
>the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him.  But I would have
>included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or
>apostle.

There is a short story called "Riverworld" (included in a collection
called "Riverworld and Other Stories") in which there is a character
named Jeshua.  This Jeshua was the person whom the myths about Jesus
were based.  Farmer was having fun with this one since he also had
Tom Mix (a 1930's movie cowboy) in it and they (Mix and Jeshua)
resembled each other close enough to be twins.

>Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous
>series.

Many of Farmer's stories conclude with a complicated explanation of
what went on before the story started.  These are briefly summarized
and often confuse me when I first read them.  In order to understand
them, I find it is necessary to go back and read large sections of
the story over.  That was the case with the series, but I was not
sufficiently motivated to do the rereading.

Like most of Farmer's stories, this one starts out great but bogs
down at the end with an overcomplicated conclusion.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 02:10:36 GMT
From: ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU
Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer

jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes:
>C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in
>the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him.  But I would have
>included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or
>apostle.

Farmer did write a short story on this subject which appears in the
collection "Riverworld and other Stories".  Unfortunately, I cannot
find my copy, and have forgotten the title of the story. It concerns
Christ, or at least a man whom we believe to be Christ (it is made
somewhat ambiguous) who is resurrected in the enclave of a fanatical
right-wing christian. I can see where Farmer would want to avoid
using someone like Christ in a longer story, and especially in an
adventure novel. It his hard to imagine Christ journeying to the
source of the river, fighting tyrants, or doing anything "active"
(i.e. other than preaching).

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 02:40:57 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein

barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>The only other pseudonym I know of RAH using is "Lyle Monroe",
>which he used on a single story, for reasons unknown to me. I don't
>recall which story it was, either, but I know it's been reprinted
>under RAH's own name, as have all the "Anson MacDonald" stories.

If I had to guess, it's THEY DO IT WITH MIRRORS, his only whodunnit.
(It was reprinted in EXPANDED UNIVERSE.)  I don't think he'd have
wanted his real name on a mystery at the time, thanks to the
perceived ``ghetto''.

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+1 216 974 9210
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.CS.NET

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  8 Apr 87 23:43:09 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Heinlein pseudonyms
To: borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU

In his book _Heinlein in Dimension_ (1968), Alexei Panshin lists
Anson McDonald, Lyle Monroe, Caleb Saunders, John Riverside, and
Simon York as pseudonyms for Robert Heinlein.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  7 Apr 87 16:32:53 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Addition to short story list
To: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)

How about "Flowers for Algernon" by (oh rats---I can't remember who
did it now).  It was one of the most moving and unique stories I
have ever read (including non-sf stuff).

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 18:09:40 GMT
From: s.cc.purdue.edu!ahh@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Addition to short story list

From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
>How about "Flowers for Algernon" by (oh rats---I can't remember who
>did it now).  It was one of the most moving and unique stories I
>have ever read (including non-sf stuff).

   It was written by Daniel Keyes, and you are quite right about it.
It was an extrememly good novella (it even won a much-deserved
Hugo).  It was later expanded into a novel (in my opinion, not as
good as the original, but still very powerful).

Brent Woods
USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh
PHONE:  (317) 743-6445
BITNET: PODUM@PURCCVM
USNAIL: Brent Woods
        500 Russell St., Apt. 19
        West Lafayette, IN  47906

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  7 Apr 87 23:20:56 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re:  Addition to short story list
To: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)

Now that I'm at home, I can look up the author.  It was indeed
Daniel Keyes.  And you are also right about the length.  In The Hugo
Winners volume I, Asimov listed it as a novelette.  It won the Hugo
that year (1960) for "short fiction", and this was probably the
source of my confusion---both novelettes and short stories
apparently qualify for "short fiction" and I probably only
remembered the "short" bit.  What's interesting is that it seems
most years there is a Hugo awarded for both novelette and short
story, but that year there was only this category "short fiction".

What's the dividing line, anyway?  What's the difference between a
short story, novelette, novella, and full-blown novel?

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
<phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 10:10 EST
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: Request for Tanith Lee titles

Tanith Lee writes all different kinds of stuff: swords & sorcery,
future fantasy, supernatural/horror, etc.  I'm looking for titles in
the following general categories:

CATEGORY 1: REWRITES

   These books/stories are sort of rewrites of other plots.  There
are four that I know of.  _Sung in Shadow_ is a Romeo and Juliet
remake, _Red as Blood_ and _The Gorgon_ are rewrites of some
European stories/myths, and _Tamastara_ is similar but with Indian
settings/legends.

CATEGORY 2: SUPERNATURAL

   This is pretty much what it sounds like.  Books that I know of
are _Dark Castle, White Horse_ (the first novella whose name eludes
me at the moment) and _Sometimes, After Sunset_ (two novellas), and
a short story, "Wolfland".

   If anyone can add to these, I would appreciate it.  I'd also like
publication info if you have it; I know that DCWH and Tamastara are
still in print, I'm pretty sure Gorgon is, don't know about SiS or
RaB, and would bet good money that _Sometimes, After Sunset_ is not.

Mary Malmros
MANAGER@SMITH (BITnet)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Apr 1987 12:19:35-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Science fiction is forever.)
Subject: Madeleine L'Engle

I'm sure this message is going to be delayed so long as to be
incomprehensible by the time anyone receives this, but here goes.

It is a rare occasion when I disagree with J&B, so I can't pass up
the opportunity to continue a discussion about one of my favorite
authors.  I just read Issue #133, where William LeFevre says, "I
agree that the three stories were not strongly coupled..."  I want
to add that I got the impression that "A Wrinkle In Time" is geared
to a juvenile audience, whereas the other two books seem to have a
more adult slant (though mild enough to be understood by a
teenager).

Did anyone else get this impression?  It would help to explain the
loose connections between the three books.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 87 08:26 PDT
From: LAYOUT LUNATIC <"FOLSM2::MIKE%sc.intel.com"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: re:  Story Request

From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
>A friend asked if anyone could help finding this story.  Plot: An
>employee of a 'proctor-gamble' type company is fired.  He is angry,
>so he sky-writes nasty things about the company in the sky using
>some sort of foamed substance that is very light, but practically
>indestructible.  These huge foam letters drift down to the town and
>cause all sorts of havoc, because you can't get rid of them.  The
>won't burn, won't dissolve, nothing.  The man eventually starts his
>own company that sells a rather mediocre cleanser that has one
>special property - it dissolves these foam things.  Instant market.
>
>This sounds really strange.  Anyone know what it is?  Oh, he said
>he read it in the early sixties.

This is a short story written by Alan Nelson called _Soap Opera_.
It was originally published in the April 1953 issue of
_Magazine_of_Fantasy_and_ Science_Fiction_.  It was reprinted at
least once that I know of, in Fawcett books 1960 publication of
_13_Great_Stories_of_Science_Fiction_.  Actually a good story.
Enjoy.

mike may
MIKE@FOLSM2.INTEL.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 03:27:34 GMT
From: mce@tc.fluke.COM (Brian McElhinney)
Subject: Gene Wolfe news from Locus

Some Gene Wolfe news from the latest Locus:

   URTH OF THE NEW SUN has been turned in to the publisher (Tor)!

   Contracts with Tor for two new books have been signed.  One is
   called THERE ARE DOORS, and is about "a department store clerk
   who falls in love with a goddess from and alternate universe."
   The other has a working title of SOLDIER OF ARETE, and is the
   sequel to SOLDIER OF THE MIST.

Can anyone tell me how long it "typically" takes to go from turning
in a book, to when it is available?

Brian McElhinney
mce@tc.fluke.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 Apr 87 1009-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #145
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Apr 87 1009-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #145
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:

         Books - Carr & Farmer (2 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) &
                 L'Engle & Lindsay (2 msgs) & Niven (2 msgs) &
                 Pohl & Silverberg & Stephenson (2 msgs) &
                 Swanwick

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 18:01:00 PST
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Terry Carr is dead

I've found out that Terry Carr, editor, author, and long-time fan,
died Tuesday, April 7.  Details are still sketchy, but we seem to
have lost another strong editor and writer, as well as a neat
person.  SFdom will really miss him.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 13:36:45 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Riverworld.

jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes:
>1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood
>about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and
>that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left
>somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections.

I think the people who conducted the Riverworld buisness regarded as
a religious duty to create as many wathans as possible.

WARNING!  If you have not read "Gods of Riverworld", the following
could be a spoiler!

In The Dark Design (or was that the 3rd book? I forget. In the 4th
book anyway) the questers are told that the meaning of the
experiment is to have people reach so great an ethical standard,
that they will "pass on". The 120 years is considered sufficient
time for anyone to reach that stage if they are going to reach it at
all. Thus the time limit.

In "Gods.." however, we learn that whatans don't "pass on".  Instead
(with the aid of the computer) you are essentially immortal. The
object of the testing time is to improve the ethical standards right
enough, but for a much more practical reason: It's to ensure that
the people who are eventually granted immortality, are folks that
you can stand spending eternity with!

Still, the object of creating wathans and "edjucating" people would
seem to be religious anyway. Otherwise why bother at all?

(Oops! Lost a line here!)

>parent/child relationships. If I were resurrected I think I would
>try to find my Mother and Father . I should imagine most people
>would.

The problem was that the odds against finding one particular person
on the Riverworld was astronomical. Farmer explores this to some
extent. Most people probably spent some days looking for their loved
ones, decided to delay their search until they got a bit more
organized and eventually gave up. Stubborn searchers moved along the
riverbanks until they got enslaved.

>B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I would
>used some "bigger" characters in the book. Einstein, George
>Washington, Ceasar, JFK, Robert E. Lee, Charlemange, Brian Boru,
>Ghandi, etc. What I mean is include some bigger than life
>characters.

(Who is Brian Boru?)

It would be impossible for Farmer to include _every_ historical
character. I think he did a good job of selection. In fact, I think
he overdid it. The 3rd and 4th book could profitably (literally
that is) have been cut down to one book by dropping some of the
"extras" and cutting out some of that looooong fight between the
riverboats.

>C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ in
>the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him.  But I would have
>included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope or
>apostle.

In the short story "Riverworld" (from "Riverworld and Other
Stories") Jesus appears (with his look-alike Tom Mix!). The point of
the story

SPOILER ALERT!

is that people who meet him are angry when he don't live up to how
THEY think he should be (I think he is even tortured by someone),
yet when he meets an old testament character (Moses, I think, or
Abraham) he gets angry because this guy dosen't live up to HIS
expectations.

>Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous
>series.

As I said, it's good, but not so good as it would've been if it had
been a trilogy.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
Institute of Computer Science
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 05:37:16 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Riverworld.  (SPOILER!!!)

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>In the short story "Riverworld" (from "Riverworld and Other
>Stories") Jesus appears (with his look-alike Tom Mix!). The point
>of the story is that people who meet him are angry when he don't
>live up to how THEY think he should be (I think he is even tortured
>by someone), yet when he meets an old testament character (Moses, I
>think, or Abraham) he gets angry because this guy dosen't live up
>to HIS expectations.

Actually, the two most interesting points are at the end of the
story.  The first is when he was sentenced to burn at the stake
because he was a Jew, with the rationalization that they had
rejected Jesus (the Divine Irony :-) and the second is the last line
of the story:

FINAL SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!

``Father!  The *do* know what they're doing!''

Brandon S. Allbery
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net
6615 Center St. #A1-105 MCIMail: BALLBERY
Mentor, OH 44060-4101   +01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 07:40:50 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Katherine Kurtz books
From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM

Does anyone on this list have a complete list of the Katherine Kurtz
books set in the Deryni world. I am trying to collect these.  The
books I know of at present are
   Deryni Rising
   Deryni Checkmate
   High Deryni

   Camber of Culdi
   Saint Camber
   Camber the Heretic

   The Bishops Heir
   The Kings Justice

But judging by various mailings on this list, there are others.  Any
help would be appreciated

Richard Rodway

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 20:20:44 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books

From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM
>Does anyone on this list have a complete list of the Katherine
>Kurtz books set in the Deryni world. I am trying to collect these.

Well, certainly! In the order they should be read:

>Deryni Rising
>Deryni Checkmate
>High Deryni
>
>Camber of Culdi
>Saint Camber
>Camber the Heretic
>
>The Bishop's Heir
>The King's Justice

  The Quest for St. Camber (only in hardcover still)

The short story collection "Deryni Archives" may be read once you
have finished the first two trilogies, otherwise you won't
understand some of it. It might be best to read some of the third
trilogy, too.

In chronological order, the second trilogy is first, then the first
(after ~200 years), then the third (right after the first). Do not
read them in that order, however.

Several more trilogies are promised, filling out the 200-year gap
and continuing past QfSC.

Why am I posting this to the net, instead of Email? Because I have
heard of another book by Kurtz, called "Codex Derynianus" (spelling
possibly incorrect). I've seen it listed in Books in Print, but have
never seen a copy, and have been told by Sherry Gottlieb of Change
of Hobbit Bookstore that it doesn't exist. If anyone has concrete
information on whether this book exists, please let me know!

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 15:20:56 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: L'Engle's trilogy
To: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.dec.com

>marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
> I want to add that I got the impression that "A Wrinkle In Time"
> is geared to a juvenile audience, whereas the other two books seem
> to have a more adult slant (though mild enough to be understood by
> a teenager).
> Did anyone else get this impression?

Most definitely!  I read "A Wrinkle in Time" when I was in 5th or
6th grade (like it so much that I read "The Two Unicorns"
afterwards), but didn't know about or read the other two until I was
in college.  Their existence was a mild surprise to me.  I don't
think I would have understood or appreciated the last few chapters
of "A Wind in the Door".  The part of the story that is actually the
climax (I don't want to give any specifics) was so...... well......
odd that I don't really think I would have understood or enjoyed it
as a 5th grader (I put it on the same level as the climax of C.S.
Lewis's "Perelandra").  "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" probably would
have gone right over my head because of all the time travel
paradoxes.

                        William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 08:12 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus

   putnam@thuban.steinmetz quotes some lines from the introduction
of A Voyage To Arcturus, and I have to agree with all the negative
ones. I think the ploy to which I objected most was killing off a
character when he got tired of the particular conflicts he'd set up
for the character. I never finished this novel, even though it was
assigned in class. Jeff, I don't know that reading A Voyage To
Arcturus is worth it.
   I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of
it soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a
wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated slimeball is still
a slimeball, and that's what the main character was.

Marina Fournier
Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 17:36:41 GMT
From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@rutgers.edu (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>putnam@thuban.steinmetz quotes some lines from the introduction of
>A Voyage To Arcturus, and I have to agree with all the negative
>ones....
>Jeff, I don't know that reading A Voyage To Arcturus is worth it.

   And if you hated the book, try watching the movie some time.  It
qualifies as the *only* movie I've ever walked out on, and I even
sat through Def-Con 4.  I think I was one of the last to leave,
though, if that counts for anything.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 18:01:10 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!bmg1@rutgers.edu (Brett Goldstock)
Subject: Larry Niven

Anyone out there know what he's working on?  I heard he was doing a
sequel to The Intergral Trees.

brett

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 22:02:02 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!stubbs@rutgers.edu (Dennis J. Kosterman)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven

bmg1@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Brett Goldstock) writes:
>Anyone out there know what he's working on?
>I heard he was doing a sequel to The Intergral Trees.

     He has finished the sequel to "The Integral Trees".  I don't
remember the title, and I don't think it's out in book form yet, but
it's serialized in the January/April issues of "Analog".

Dennis J. Kosterman
stubbs@astroatc.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 17:57:44 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@rutgers.edu (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Pohl Strikes Again

Anyone read the lastest `sequel' to the Heechee saga? It just
appeared in hardback... and I thought `Heechee Rendevous' was
supposed to be the last one.

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 19:06:14 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: A Voyage To Arcturus

This posting reveals the premise of Silverberg's DYING INSIDE, but
that's not really a spoiler since you find it out in the first 20
pages anyway. What's important is what he does with it.

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of it
>soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a
>wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated slimeball is
>still a slimeball, and that's what the main character was.

Hurm. DYING INSIDE is one of my favorite books. I've never quite
understood the idea that the main character of a book ought to be
someone you would like if you met him/her socially. DYING INSIDE
concerns a telepathically gifted man who has never had much human
contact outside of the tawdry, illicit use of his power; now he's
middle-aged and his power is dying. I did pity him. Although I don't
think I'd particularly like him as a friend, Silverberg made me
understand his anguish, and that makes it difficult for me to think
of him as a "slimeball."

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 01:46:35 GMT
From: zamick@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonny the Z)
Subject: The BIG U

   Here's a scoop on a little known book. The Big U.

   This could possibly be one of the most unusual books ever
written.  The first time I read it, I was stuck in a car for 8 hours
with nothing to do, so I read. The book is difficult to get into,
because it starts out in full swinging strangeness. The first time
its read, it is mearly funny. Then looking back, you begin to laugh,
so you read it again. This time its funnier. And so on and so on.

    I have given the book to many friends, and everyone who has
gotten past the front and back cover (both of which are unfair to
the quality of the book) has thanked me profusely.

   I heartily recommend the BIG U by Neal Stephenson to anybody with
a strong and overwhelming imagination.

Jonny
zamick@rutgers.rutgers.edu
munchkin@gold.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 02:13:05 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!jdia@rutgers.edu (Wowbagger)
Subject: Re: The BIG U

zamick@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonny the Z) writes:
>Here's a scoop on a little known book. The Big U.
>
>This could possibly be one of the most unusual books ever written.
>...
>I heartily recommend the BIG U by Neal Stephenson to anybody
>with a strong and overwhelming imagination.

Hi Folks!
   I also give _The_Big_U_ a strong recommendation. I loved it.

   But note: In order to really understand this book you must listen
to the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, and also the Bach
Toccata and Fugue in D minor.  The only recording of these that I
can recommend was done by E. Power Biggs. The recording's title is
_E_Power_Biggs_Plays_Bach_in_the_Thomaskirche_. I REPEAT! THIS IS
THE ONLY RECORDING THAT I FOUND PASSABLE. NONE OF THE OTHER
RECORDINGS HAD BASS WORTH #$%*^&$%.

   You will understand this prerequisite when you read the book...

jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu
{seismo|topaz|cmcl2}!rochester!ur-tut!jdia

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 00:00:27 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!hobie@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specials" - where are they?

Jared J Brennan (ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP) writes:
>   Ace has recently (past couple of months) released _The Hercules
>Text_, which is in the line of Ace Specials.  So, obviously, the
>line continues to exist.
>
>   The previous titles were...
>      _In the Drift_ (?) , ?

   The author of _In the Drift_ is Michael Swanwick.  I have read it
as well as _Neuromancer_ and _Green Eyes_.  I can't recommend the
latter two highly enough; both are fascinating reads.  However, I
don't understand how _In the Drift_ fell in with the same crowd.  I
disliked it utterly.  It's about Three Mile Island going amok and
poisoning a vast area (it's also some kind of evil
intelligence--figure that one out) and clowns rule Philadelphia
(REAL clowns, not the usual government type).

Hobie Orris
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4 | decvax | ? }!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 Apr 87 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #146
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Apr 87 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #146
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Boskone (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 15:38:39 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Stuff on Boskone and Noreascon III

From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>    I want to know if the following 2 suggestions will be
>implemented: 1) That memberships will be made non-transferrable. If
>this is the case, the con publicity had better make this clear.  If
>you do not do so soon, someone is going to have some fun with NESFA
>in court.  I personally feel that this is a just plain scummy thing
>to do.  I may not be in New England next year, but I would like to
>have the chance to buy a membership and then sell it if I cannot
>make it to Boskone.

Sorry you think this is scummy but there is no point in giving
ceratin groups preference if memberships can be freely transferred.
(However, I have to admit that I can't see why you shouldn't be able
to transfer it to someone else in a prefered group.)  Anyway, while
people who feel like going to court can always do so, what
particular grounds were you thinking of?  Lots of people would like
to buy a membership and not all of them will be able to because
there will not be room.

>2) That the people who have already bought memberships at $18.00
>may have their money refunded because with the smaller attendance,
>this would be an undue hardship on the convention budgets.  This
>can be construed as fraud.

I suppose anything can be construed as fraud if you try hard enough.
Keeping the money of people who paid $18 for a traditional Boskone
advertised as being on a specific weekend at the Sheraton Boston
when it is now known that it will be a somewhat different kind of
convention, at a different location, and probably a different date,
seem more like fraud to me.

>    On Noreascon III: one of my housemates' father is a a major
>contractor for the remodeling of the HYNES.  The word from that
>angle is: it is almost an impossibility that the Hynes auditorium
>would be ready for Noreascon III.  They are behind schedule and
>over budget (the reality of public works in Massachusetts).

I have heard this rumor several times before.  And it's always from
a very credible source.  Once it was from someone who had worked for
the city of Boston doing a study of upcoming construction schedules.
You say you have it semi-directly from a major contractor.
   However, whenever I have checked it out in detail, it turns out
the person spreading this rumor is confused about either the Hynes
schedule or the Noreascon III schedule.  Early on, the Hynes was
scheduled to be done sometime in 1989 and there was some real risk.
But the Hynes plans and schedule went through change after change
and for a couple of years now they have been scheduled to finish 1
January *1988*.  There are conventions booked into the Hynes in
January 1988.
   Now, personally, I also believe the Hynes renovations will
probably be finished behind schedule.  (And I am not surprised about
them being over budget.)  But a few weeks or even a few months late
is no threat to Noreascon III.  The official word from the
Masschusettes Convention Center Authority, nine months before the
deadline, is still that all will be ready 1 January 1988.  So what
if this slips a full year?  (Something which does not seem likely.)
Noreascon III is scheduled *21* months after the supposed completion
date of renovations.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 15:42:58 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: My previous Boskone suggestions

From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (The Wizard)
>Of course, NESFA has already spoken on this matter.  I'm waiting
>for their newsletter so I can apply for my refund.

No need to wait.  Anyone who bought a membership and is now sure
they don't want to attend Boksone XXV (the 1988 Boskone) should just
drop a note to NESFA asking for a refund:

   Boskone XXV
   c/o NESFA
   PO Box G
   MIT Branch PO
   Cambrdige, MA 02139

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 14:19:07 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

george@scirtp.UUCP (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) writes:
>Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~
>1800.  Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other?  Across
>the street from each other?  You could obviously just become a
>distributed system.
>
>Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this
>willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands:
>any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of
>gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con.
>That's what I meant by the subject header.

LOOK, I don't agree with how NESFA is cutting down either (I do
realize they have to, and are free to do so as they choose) but the
last thing we need is a feud and competing conventions!  If you
think running a convention is simple (and you seem to imply that in
your postings) then you obviously haven't tried to run a good sized
con in a major city.

Running a convention, of any size, is hard work.  Hard VOLUNTEER
work.  It effects your paid job, grades (if you're a student), your
social life, your spare time, your relationships with other people,
and often your bank account.

Calling NESFA names is not going to solve any problems.  Threatening
them with a competing con is not going to solve any problems.  I
have found, in the past, that rowdyism at sf cons tends to run in
cycles.  NESFA is trying to deal with an upturn in that cycle to the
best of their ability.

You may remember, I was the first to bitch about "obligations to
fandom" when I saw what appeared to be an elitist attitude toward
next year's Boskone.  I felt the moves taken would not solve the
problems they were aimed to solve.  But this was before it became
necessary to change hotels and drastically cut the size of the
convention.  Drastic situations require drastic measures.  This is
one of those situations.  No matter if I agree with their solution
(and I don't), flaming them on the Net is not the solution.  And
childish "we'll run another con across the street" statements is
counterproductive at best (what it is at worst is left as an
exercise for the reader).

Finally, if you don't like what Boskone is doing...pick a weekend
and run your own con!  You're free to pick Boskone's, but you'll
lose your shirt.  One thing I have found about most con committees,
they are more than happy to help you get yours started.  You see,
that gives us something to attend when we're not busy running ours.

We now return you to this message, already in progress....

>If that means you have to charge more, then charge more.  That
>method of screening is at least socially accepted in capitalist
>America.  People can find competing parties for cheaper, but they
>probably can't find competing SF cons.

So you have the money to attend a con that costs like a professional
conference?  Many of the new fans that you worry would be shut out
by Boskone, don't.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  8 Apr 87 21:03:03 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Boskone
To: trudel@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
>> As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory
>> solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships.
>
> Wrong-o!  It discriminates against people who have no spare money,
> like myself.

Well, given that 4000 people want to attend and only 2000 will be
allowed to, due to forces beyond the control of NESFA, SOME method
must be used.  Money is the most fair way of measuring one's
seriousness about attending.  For one thing, any other method means
that some people, probably inclduing me, will not be allowed to
attend whether or not they are willing to save up for months, as I
do, and as I'm sure you could.  For another thing, much of the extra
money can be given directly to the hotel or can be used to hire
security types to keep the hotel happy, which will make Boskone more
attractive to hotels.  And that IS the main problem now, right?  An
inexpensive Boskone is of no use to me if I can't attend it.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 03:34:08 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: My previous Boskone suggestions

dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>From: djpl%hulk.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (The Wizard)
>>Of course, NESFA has already spoken on this matter.  I'm waiting
>>for their newsletter so I can apply for my refund.
>
>No need to wait.  Anyone who bought a membership and is now sure
>they don't want to attend Boksone XXV (the 1988 Boskone) should
>just drop a note to NESFA asking for a refund:

Well, I haven't bought a membership yet, but was considering it.
Should I even bother? (and, by the way, I've only attended two, not
three, Boskones).

Interesting article in Locus .... apparently the fire alarm problem
was caused, as suspected by me and others, by an oversensitive hotel
security system ....

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 17:42:22 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

>>>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
>>>We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers.
>
>I happen to think this is a particularly obnoxious rule.  What is
>magic about 18?

Legally (except for drinking), you are an adult when you turn 18 in
most states. The legal ramifications are quite different when the
person involved is under 18. Anyone under 18 is legally a "child"
and all sorts of child protection laws come into play. It doesn't
matter that the physical, emotional and psychological difference
between someone who is 17 years, 11 months and 29 days old and
someone else who is 18 years and 1 day old is trivial.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 17:58:11 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Boskone

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
>An inexpensive Boskone is of no use to me if I can't attend it.

An expensive Boskone is of no use to me if I can't afford it (and
NESFA doesn't need the money)

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 17:26:34 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

>Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~
>1800.  Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other?  Across
>the street from each other?  You could obviously just become a
>distributed system.

At Boskone 24, the temperature was below freezing with a brisk 10 -
20 mph wind a lot of the time. Walking back and forth between hotels
in such weather is not my idea of fun. Imagine walking back and
forth several times a day between two hotels in the middle of
winter. Going out is a major production.  You got to put on your
overcoat, scarf, hat, overboots, etc. I suspect that going back and
forth between 20 degree F and 80 degree F temperatures that often
may not be all that healthy.

Also multiple hotels increases the problems of running a con. You
now have to deal with several hotel managers and their staffs. If
something happen in one hotel, it takes longer to get someone over
there to investigate.  The vandals would have an easier time of it
in a mutliple hotel situation.  That is the problem that led to the
current situation. Multiple hotels would only make the problem
worse. This is not a solution. It ignores the original cause of the
problem instead of trying to address it.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 05:15:09 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: CruiseCon

oyster@uwmacc.UUCP writes:
>bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau ~) writes:
>[Regarding new Boskone guidelines:]
>>...however, I was struck by the distinctly unfriendly attitude
>>directed toward outsiders and the feeling of regimentation
>>conveyed by the rules.
>
>   The above comment should be read and re-read several times by
>that guy who keeps repeating "Stop whining, they *have* to do it."
>Sure, measures must be taken.  The announcement *does* come off as
>snobby, incestuous, and whatever all those other people said that
>seems to be offending some people.  (And note that the restrictions
>seem reasonable to me *personally*.)

Well, I'll assume that I'm the "guy" in question; based on an
assumed gender reference in guy, it's either me or Don Eastlake.
While I haven't used the term "whining" yet, perhaps I should have
used it in regard to some postings (particularly the "Well, I
haven't even ever been to a Boskone, or ever worked on a con and
have no intention of ever doing so, but NESFA's being so *unfair* to
me, just in case I decide I want to go to Boskone next year." type.
Or the "Well I don't like Boskone being cut to 1,500 so it can't
happen" type. Or the "Well, I've never helped organize a large
convention, but obviously x will fix everything that's wrong, no
question about it" type. Note that the last is not directed at those
who have suggested different approaches; it's the assumption that
their idea is just so obviously right that irritates me.).

Sigh. I'm grumpy tonight. Maybe that's why even after reading and
re-reading the above comment several times, I keep coming to the
same conclusion; the restrictions weren't posted by NESFA as an
announcement.

Take a look. All of the copies of the restrictions that were posted
were posted by people who got them out of the NESFA clubzine Instant
Message. Based on my own copy, no one who was actually at the
meeting that voted on those rules posted them, and no member of
either this year's or next year's Boskone committee did either.

Sometime in the next month or two, NESFA will be sending out a
letter to all attendees of this year's Boskone that will announce
the changes to next year's.  While I don't know this, I assume that
this letter will attempt to explain why these changes were made, and
give a bit of background. As an example of the difference, what say
I list the "restictions" for reading rec.arts.sf-lovers?

1) You must have an account on a Usenet, Bitnet, or Arpanet site.
2) You must find out about the existence of the group.
3) You must be able to read.
4) You must understand how to read news/subscribe to a digest.

Try reading the above without knowledge of why they are necessary.
Sound rather grim, don't they. Well, what most people here have seen
is just the raw text of the restrictions (for next year only so far,
by the way). They haven't read any of the debate over their
adoption. They're making guesses as to the motivations without real
information about them. The restrictions were posted without NESFA
having any opportunity to try to explain why they were being
imposed, at least immediately.

So don't take the posting of the restrictions as an official NESFA
announcement. While the text is what's happening, they were not
posted by NESFA, and were posted without giving NESFA any
opportuinity to attempt to explain why they were necessary.

tyg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 Apr 87 1119-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #147
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Apr 87 1119-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #147
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:

               Books - Lessing (3 msgs) & McCaffrey &
                       Moorcock (5 msgs) & 
                       Feminist Writers (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 21:23:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@rutgers.edu
Subject: Lessing, any-one?

Who has heard of Doris Lessing?

It's a curious thing.  I have for a couple of years now seen her
work classified as both Fiction Proper and Science Fiction in the
book-stores and libraries.  After reading a reasonable amount of it,
I am impressed by her depth of thought and ability to synthesize
interesting stories from existing mythologies.

It seems, however, that few people know of her.

Some of her books are _The Temptation of Jack Orkney_, _The Summer
After the Dark_, _The Golden Note Book_, _Memoir of a Survivor_, and
the _Canopus in Argos: Archives_ series (_Shikasta_, _The Marriages
between Zones Three, Four, and Five_, _The Sentimental Agents_).
The series and _Memoir_ are definitely science fiction; I have not
read the first two so I do not know what they are.

It seems that with all the discussion recently about what is
'innovative' on this group that here is an example of just that.
In her _Archives_ series, Lessing explores some reasons for the
existence of religions, explanations of pre-historical events
(Stonehenge's reasons for existence are implied), and offers
predictions of what is to happen in this planet's near future.  She
also explores all manner of metaphysical stuff, touching on the
nature of Good and Evil, inter-personal relationships, what happens
in small groups under pressure (ala Herbert, although with a
different slant from his _Under Pressure_ [title?  Could also be
_Dragon in the Deep_.  I digress]).  She does all of her exploration
within a framework (or, perhaps, based on it) of Science Fiction.

The same sort of exploration goes in to _Memoir_, although not on
quite as ambitious a scale.  (Side note: If you pick up _Memoir_,
look for an interesting literary 'trick' in regards to how Lessing
treats the narrator.  It caught me off guard.  I'm still wondering
what the significance was...)

Anyhow, to my point: has anyone else in the world read these books,
especially the _Canopus in Argos:Archives_ series?  I've seen the
latter on people's book-shelves, but no-one I know has read them.

ihnp4!bradley!retief

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 00:26:27 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Lessing, any-one?

Doris Lessing is a WONDERFUL writer, although to many of us old-time
fans the Canopus in Argos series was a bit of a surprise at first.
She'd hinted at some SF-type goings on in a couple of her earlier
books (The Four-Gated City, I think, was one), but had never gone
full-bore into it.

Lessing is a feminist in philosophy without being a political
feminist. In fact I've read interviews with her where she claims to
be amazed that her books were seized upon by the feminist movement
and waved like flags. Lessing writes about PEOPLE; what goes on
inside them, between them, how they create their lives. She started
out writing about Rhodesia (The Grass is Singing), then moved on to
England and finally to the civilizations out in the stars.

Keep reading her stuff. If you're a woman, the older you get the
more you appreciate it. If you're a man, you may learn some things
about how the other side thinks.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 03:20:24 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Lessing, any-one?

>Anyhow, to my point: has anyone else in the world read these books,
>especially the _Canopus in Argos:Archives_ series?  I've seen the
>latter on people's book-shelves, but no-one I know has read them.

I read the first three books in the series several years ago.  By
and large they were moderately disappointing, although the second
one was somewhat entertaining.

These books are the kind that drive the genre-definers mad.
Although the subject matter is ostensibly science fiction (aliens
determining the development of man), the treatment is what I might
label "modernist fantasy"-- it isn't what we've come to recognize as
fantasy either, although it has plenty of fantastic elements.

I can't really recommend these books.  In a lot of ways they are
really backward; if they had come out in 1950 they would have been
radical, but now they might be called bourgeois new-age.  THe first
book in particular suffers from a severe case of overwriting and
This Is Serious Stuff, Folks syndrome telegraphed just everywhere.

Readers of other Lessing might be interested in these books.
SF-lovers will problably not recognize them as SF and would probably
be served better by reading Lessing's other (and presumably
superior) works.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 03:58:56 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Lengths of turns (was and naming children on Pern)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Who cares, anyway?  If Earth people aren't going to have any
>contact with the Pernese, why does it matter how the lengths of
>years compare?  Pern is consistent with itself; that's all I ask.

There are probably other reasons, but the first that enters my mind
is story-writing.  How much can happen in one year?  How many months
are there in the year (important for dating things and coordinating
them with other writers...)?  Etc.  Sure, it's trivial stuff.  But
if you're going to be involved in working with the world, you might
as well try to do it right.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 14:01:33 GMT
From: mtune!houxa!acd@rutgers.edu (A.DURSTON)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

twd@osupyr.UUCP (The Twid) writes:
> First of all, Trivia.
>  Michael Moorcock wrote the lyrics to the sone 'Veteran of the
>Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult (off of 'Heavy Metal' movie.

In case your interested...  He also co-wrote 'The Great Sun Jester'
on Mirrors and 'Black Blade' [ about what else Elric and
Stormbringer ] on Cultosaurus Erectus.

Have a nice one,

A.C.Durston
ihnp4!houxa!acd

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 16:50:27 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!scdpyr!faulkner@rutgers.edu (Bill Faulkner)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

twd@osupyr.UUCP (The Twid) writes:
> First of all, Trivia.
>  Michael Moorcock wrote the lyrics to the sone 'Veteran of the
>Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult (off of 'Heavy Metal' movie.

Gee, I didn't know that, thanks for the info.

>Could someone tell me what Moorcock has done since the Elric
>Series??

This is far from a complete list and I am not sure when he wrote all
of it in relation to the Elric Series.  Also, I am doing this from
memory, so please excuse any mistakes and/or oversimplification.

The RuneStaff Series consists of four books detailing the adventures
of Dorian Hawkmoon (One of the Eternal Champions).  The action takes
place in a fantasy (and possibly post-holocast) Europe.  The evil
empire of Gran Briton (sp?) is trying to take over the world with a
their sorccerous technology.  Very Good and Highly recommended.

The Count Brass Series has three books about the life of Count
Brass.  Count Brass is not an Eternal Champion, but rather a
character from the Runestaff series.  I have not read it yet, but if
it is anything like the Runestaff series, it should be good.

The Chronicles of Corum and the Swords Trilogy follows the like of
Corum of the Scarlet Robe (or at least I think that is his title).
Both the Chronicles and the Swords Trilogy consists of three books
each, but each was also published as a single volume.  The series
follows the trials and tribulations of Corum, who is the last of his
race (I forget his race, but during a trip to Earth, he is refered
to as an Elf).  Lots of nice suffering, a la Elric and is very
solidly written.  An interesting feature is the retelling of a scene
from the Elric series, from Corum's perspecive.  Overall, it is very
similiar to the Elric series.  Highly Recommended

The Silver Warriors (I think that is the title) is about yet another
Eternal Champion, this time in a world of snow and ice.  It has some
nice political intrigue but overall it is not up to Moorcocks usual
standard.

Gloriana (SP?) is a very long novel (~400 pages) for Moorcock.  I
have not read it, but know it is a fantasy and others have told me
that they really like it.

Elric at the End of Time is really a collection of short stories,
including Elric at the End of Time (of course).  It seems that the
publishers wanted to cash in on the Elric name, and put this piece
together.  One interesting thing is the publication of Moorcock's
first Eternal Champion story.  It's not bad, but rather amateurish.
Not Recommended, except for historical curiosity.

Then there is Jerry Cornelius, the strangest of all of the Eternal
Champions.  There are currently 3 Chronicles of Jerry Cornelius
available.  The Jerry Cornelius (JC for short) stories are highly
experimental and strange.  JC is the Eternal Champion for a slightly
modified, modern day earth.  These stories can be quite hard to
follow, since Moorcock does deal with trivial things like plot in
most of these stories.  They are a triumph of style over form.  Some
people love it, others will hate it.  If you can deal with stream of
conscience writing, go ahead and try it.  If you really need a plot
to follow, better skip this one.

Ther Great Rock and Roll Swindle is a film about and primarily by
the Sex Pistols, the inventors of punk rock.  Moorcock was
commissioned to write the book, after the movie was done, and as a
result it doesn't even resemble the movie, except in the crudest
manner.  All comments about the Cornelius books apply here (JC even
makes a guest shot in this book). It is rather amusing and funny, if
you know something about the Sex Pistols.  (Malcom still has all the
money).

This list basically covers the books that I know about.  I have
tried to just give a little bit of the overall story line of each
book, so as not to ruin any of the plots.  There are also many more
stories that MM has written, but I am unfamiliar with them.
Fortunately, the book companies have been re-releasing his works and
I know that all of the above (except for the Great Rock and Roll
Swindle, which is only available in England) is currently being
printed.  This is real nice, since I spent about 4 months looking
for all 4 books in the Runestaff series.

Personally, I really enjoy reading Moorcock and consider him to be
one of the best SF/Fantasy writers of the 70's.

Enjoy

Bill Faulkner
Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research
PO Box 3000
Boulder, CO  80307-3000
303-497-1259
UUCP:  faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP
       hao!scdpyr!faulkner
INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu
ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 02:37:32 PST
From: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM (Mike Kao)
To: crash!sf-lovers@rutgers.arpa@nosc.mil
Subject: Moorcock!

All right! Michael Moorcock is one of my favorite authors! Here's my
list of books I've read by him:

Elric series: 1-7, about the albino sorceror/emperor and his sword
Stormbringer.

Corum series: 1-6, about the last of the Vadagh--Prince Corum
Jhaelen Irsei.  He sword is Traitor.

Hawkmoon series: 1-7, split into Runestaff series (1-4) and the
Count Brass series (1-3), about Duke Dorian Hawkmoon von Koln. Yet
another aspect of the Champion Eternal.

Erekose series: 1-2, split into _The Eternal Champion_ (about John
Daker/Erekose) and _The Silver Warriors_ (about Erekose/Urlik
Skarsol).

These are the books I've read. They are ALL about the Champion
Eternal. The other books remaining are the Cornelius series, and
_Gloriana_, a boring romance...

Mike Kao
UUCP: {akgua,hp-sdd!hlpabs,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.arpa
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 05:33:01 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion Books

Let's see. In the Eternal Champion cycle, Moorcock has written the
following series, which can be enjoyed in any order. They cross over
in bizarre ways; there are at least two scenes which are found in
two novels each, from different points of view.

Elric of Melnibone:
1    Elric of Melnibone
2    Sailor on the Seas of Fate (which crosses over with # 22, below)
3    Weird of the White Wolf
4    The Vanishing Tower (x-over w/ # 9, below)
5    Bane of the Black Sword
6    Stormbringer (which has a slight x-over with #22)

Prince Corum of the Scarlet Robe
  The Swords Trilogy
7    The Knight of the Swords
8    The Queen of the Swords
9    The King of the Sword
   The Chronicles of Corum
10   The Bull and the Spear
11   The Oak and the Ram
12   The Sword and the Stallion (which leads in to #22, below)

The History of the Runestaff (Hawkmoon)

13   The Jewel in the Skull
14   The Mad God's Amulet
15   The Sword of the Dawn
16   The Runestaff (which leads into #19, below)

John Daker/Erekose

17   The Eternal Champion (the first written)
18   The Silver Warriors (Phoenix in Obsidian) (which leads into
        #23 and #19)
19   The Dragon in the Sword

After this, things get more complex.

The Eternal Champion is an archetype. All of these major
protagonists are the Eternal Champion, though most of them only have
a dim awareness of this link, an awareness which becomes much more
pronounced whenever they meet. John Daker/Erekose is an aspect of
the Champion who is cursed with knowledge of his nature, although it
is an incomplete knowledge.

All of Moorcock's fantasy work (and most of his SF work) is at least
peripherally tied in with the cycle. Jerry Cornelius is an SF
version of the archetype, who dies and is reborn repeatedly, in very
curious (and largely incomprensible) ways.

The cycle concludes in
The Chronicles of Castle Brass

20  Count Brass
21  The Champion of Garathorm
22  The Quest for Tanelorn

This series follows Hawkmoon, after the events of the History of the
Runestaff series (see above), and closes off the Eternal Champion
cycle. It is the best written of all of these works, and it is worth
reading this last.

Note that Moorcock and Howard Chaykin collaborated on a graphic
novel (aka comic book, for those less enlightened members of the
reading public) entitled 23 _The Flowers of Heaven, the Swords of
Hell_

Which bridges the gap between _The Silver Warriors_ and _Quest for
Tanelorn_ for the John Daker/Erekose character. However, _The Silver
Warriors_ *also* leads directly into _Dragon in the Sword_. Read
_Dragon_ for a better explanation.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 17:23:43 GMT
From: ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU (Lost All Hope)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

   "The Warhound and the World's Pain" is a very good book written
in the vein of the Eternal Champion (Though it is only indirectly
related to these.)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 02:58:58 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@rutgers.edu
Subject: Feminist Writers

James Tiptree, Jr.: For a man, he writes really good feminist
fiction.

Andre Norton: Man, does this guy really understand female
viewpoints.

Piers Anthony: Another good writer with strong female heros.
.... etc. ...."
(probably didn't get this one word for word, but it was the classic
hoax that evoked tremendous response.)

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 18:58:40 GMT
From: mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kevin J. Mayville)
Subject: Re: Feminists

>"Feminist writers:
>James Tiptree, Jr.: For a man, he writes really good feminist
>fiction.
>Andre Norton: Man, does this guy really understand female
>viewpoints.

He would probably be even better without that annoying problem of
being FEMALE!

Kevin
mayville@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 Apr 87 1155-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #148
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Apr 87 1155-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #148
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:

                  Films - Aliens & Japanimation &
                          Neuromancer (2 msgs) &
                          Star Wars (7 msgs) & A Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 23:11:31 GMT
From: sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: More Aliens

Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes:
> where was the Nostromo coming from with its cargo of crude oil?
> They were obvioulsy very far out, since:
> 1. It would take them 10 months to get home in hyperdrive
> 2. They had not even reached the fringe of human civilization yet
> 3. No one had ever seen anything like the derelict spacecraft before
> So where were they coming from at the beginning of ALIEN? Any ideas?

Hmm.  Why was crude oil even wanted?

You might be able to make some guesses about the underlying society
from this.  Presumably, hyperdrive is slow (10c, perhaps?).  So it
takes a long time to get somewhere.  Presumably, oil-bearing planets
are relatively rare.  At the time of the film, Earth can no longer
be counted as an oil-bearing planet.  Government (such as it is)
seems to be such that a company can lay claim to an entire planet.
The situation appears to be somewhat similar to Poul Andersons
Polysotechnic (sp?) League stories--weak, ineffective government.
Strong companies.  Which may have some historical basis (I'm pretty
weak here.  Does the Hansa sound familiar?).  It is possible that
the company doesn't actually lay claim to the planet, but instead
tries to keep its location a secret from other interested
companies--not too hard to do, probably.

So.  You ought to have companies sending out scout craft to find
planets to exploit.  These planets will be well outside the borders
of civilization.  It is possible that the big companies have more or
less well defined areas that they explore in (company X has an
implicit claim to all stars within 10 degrees of Sirius as seen from
the earth--something like that.  Arrogant as hell, perhaps, but it
seems possible.  Until such time as some company makes a really
profitable find, in which case all agreements are off).

Back to why they wanted crude oil--almost certainly, not to burn.
Too expensive for that (except maybe for a few company high
muckymucks who want it for their antique cars and airplanes).  More
likely, they wanted it for plastics or perhaps for processing into
food.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 87 17:20:50 PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: request for information

   I am working on a possible article for "Movement!" magazine,
which is put out by the Kitty Animation Circle, 8-5 Yoyogi 1-Chome,
Shibuya-ku, Tokyo-to 151, Japan.  The topic of the article would be
Japanimation fandom in the US.

   I am soliciting as much information from as many Japanimation
fans as possible, particularly from fans of "Urusei Yatsura" and/or
"Mezon Ikkoku" (KAC is the fan club for these series).  I'm
presently the only KAC member in the US; I know there's more "Urusei
Yatsura" fans out there!  Japanese KAC members would be interested
in hearing about us!

   By the way, "Urusei Yatsura 5" will be delayed; it will not come
out this summer as originally planned.  This is because the plans
for the movie have changed; it now will be called "Urusei Yatsura
Final Story: Boy Meets Girl" and will be based on the final story in
the comic books.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 10:11:38 est
From: John DeCarlo      <M14051%mwvm@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Neuromancer 'Movie'

In response to the various inquiries about a possible new movie on
_Neuromancer_, the following excerpts from the April 1987 Computer
Language Magazine should prove enlightening.  The article is
entitled "Timothy Leary and the CyberPunks", by Craig LaGrow.

"In Timothy Leary's opinion, computer programmers are the true
'CyberPunks' and the real heroes of today.

The article then talks about how Leary likes programmers and hackers
and how he is getting involved in various software projects with
Activision.

"Leary is also in the midst of developing a series of software
programs called Mind Movies.  'In my software movies, you decide on
who the hero will be and what attributes he or she will have.  The
script keeps coming up and you have choices.  At the end, the movie
is your unique version of the book. ...'

"Novelist William Burroughs is working with Leary on the script for
the first Mind Movie, which is based on William Gibson's book
_Neuromancer_, about a CyberPunk computer kid.  Keith Haring, a
graffiti artist, is doing much of the graphics, Helmut Newton the
still photography, and New Wave rock group Devo the soundtrack."

Now don't ask me how Devo will record the soundtrack on a software
program, but that's just technology application I guess.

So, if you hear that Tim Leary is doing a movie on _Neuromancer_,
you will know what is meant.

John DeCarlo
M14051%mwvm@mitre.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 14:37:00 GMT
From: pyrnj!datacube!will@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ Movie?

I saw some interesting computer graphics flashing by on the T.V. for
approximately 15 seconds or so and then the word Neuromancer for
about 5 seconds and that's it.  This was about ten days ago in what
I assume was an advanced "ad" that played on MTV.

At least I think I saw it.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 20:15:47 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@rutgers.edu (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

vince@hi.UUCP (Vince Murphy) writes:
>> Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR
>> WARS that are lifted virtually intact from other sources?  I
>  I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the scene where Luke
>finds his uncle and aunt smoldering is a quote from The Searchers.
>Also, the final scene of the heroes getting their medals is from
>the Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the Will.

Let's see. I agree completely with the original poster who said that
Lucas was "heavily inspired" by the Fourth World comics of Jack
Kirby (these are the first comics I can remember reading)--they
include _Forever People_, _Mir. Miracle_, _Jimmy Olsen_, and (most
importantly), _New Gods_.  These titles were published by DC Comics
in the very early 70's, when Lucas was a college student and (by his
own admission) reading lots o' comics.  They do include "the
Source", Darkseid and his ferocious good-guy son, Orion, a
wise-old-wizard archetype, and sundry other _Star Wars_ elements.

I've been told that the names (Obi-wan, Vader) come from some
Mesopotamian mythology that Lucas studied in college.

I'd heard that the "return to find smouldering bodies" is from _My
Darling Clementine_, not _The Serchers_. The raid on the Death Star
is apparently very close to the climax of _The Dam Busters_. I
believe it was Samuel Delany who pointed out the similarities
between the awards ceremony and _Triumph of the Will_, in a review
which centered on the explicit racism of the first film. (Note that
when a black man is introduced, Lando, he's a traitor.)

Most important of all is Akira Kurosawa's first film, an epic
entitled _The Hidden Fortress_. This wonderful film introduces R2D2
and C3PO, who are soldiers who get caught in a plot to smuggle gold
from a hidden castle to the ancestral home of the princess of the
castle. There's a lengthy spear-fighting scene that was clearly the
inspiration for the Vader-Kenobi duel. Lucas has called this his
major source of inspiration for the film, and I highly recommend it
to all and sundry, even if you don't like _Star Wars_ much (or at
all).

Any movie buffs who can help find other sources for scenes of the
film (especially cinematic sources; content sources are plentiful),
please post.  It might be easier to list which parts of _Star Wars:
The New Hope_ were original with Lucas :-).

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 21:05:48 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!goudreau@rutgers.edu (Bob Goudreau)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes:
>I believe it was Samuel Delany who pointed out the similarities
>between the awards ceremony and _Triumph of the Will_, in a review
>which centered on the explicit racism of the first film. (Note that
>when a black man is introduced, Lando, he's a traitor.)

Just a minute - could you refresh me as to the "explicit racism" of
the first film (Episode IV, "A New Hope")?  My recollections of the
original _Star_Wars_ include no incidents that could be construed as
explicitly racist; indeed no non-Caucasian humans even appear in
that film.  (Perhaps this could be implicit racism.)

As for other implicit racism (Darth Vader, the bad guy, in black),
what about the storm troopers?  They were bad guys in white.  What
about the inter-species nature of many groups, such as
Han&Chewbacca, riff-raff at the bar, Jabba & friends?  These are
examples of members of many species being on both sides.  Are there
some implicitly racist scenes which I have missed or forgotten?

As for Lando (not introduced until the *second* film, btw), remember
that he winds up being a loyal ally for the end of
_The_Empire_Strikes_Back_ and for all of _Return_of_the_Jedi_.  And
be not too quick to judge him a traitor.  Even Han Solo was about to
turn his back on his friends in _A_New_Hope_; his actions then seem
even less loyal than Lando's (Han just wanted to take his money and
run; Lando was basically being coerced).

Bob Goudreau
Data General Corp.
62 Alexander Drive
Research Triangle Park, NC  27709
(919) 248-6231
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!goudreau

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 02:25:40 GMT
From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@rutgers.edu (Vince Murphy [Alien])
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

Remember that racism is not only directed towards blacks.  In Star
Wars, the robots are treated as inferiors (calling Luke "Master")
and the like.  Also, Chewbaca seems little more than a slave to Han.
Hell, he doesn't even get a medal at the end (and it wasn't because
he was too tall).  The racism in Star Wars is quite explicit with
statements like "I can't abide those Jawas" (as C3PO says).  And
implicit (see robot stuff above).

As far as Luke's uncle and aunt's death scene, it does have some
elements of "Clementine" in it, but I believe Lucas said it was a
"steal" from the Searchers.  Actually, I don't think Lucas has an
original bone in his body.

Vincent J. Murphy
hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov
University Of New Mexico

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 21:53:32 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_ajbh@rutgers.edu (JABBA the HUT)
Subject: In case they do make SW-I

   I watched Return of the Jedi on cable recently. If Lucas is
planning to do another Star Wars movie. I have a few words for him.
(in my best Sam Kinnison delivery)

           USE CREATURES AND ALIENS THAT DON'T LOOK LIKE
           REJECTS FROM TOYS-R-US THIS TIME!!!!!!!

For ROTJ they must have used up the free worlds supply of naugahyde.
I swear that I have seen several of the aliens on the muppet show.
Especially bad were the guards on Tattoine and Landos (no ticki no
washi) copilot.

The other safety tip I would have for LUCAS is (again reverting to
Kinison)

       DON'T MAKE THE STORY SO DIGUSTINGLY CUTE THIS TIME!!!!

Ewoks indeed.

   On a last note. I thought that I remembered JABBA saying to Luke
Streetwalker the line "I was killing your kind before you were
born." but it wasn't on the HBO version. Am I thinking of the book?

jim

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 13:10:49 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes:
> I'd heard that the "return to find smouldering bodies" is from _My
> Darling Clementine_, not _The Serchers_.

   Having recently seen both these films in a class on John Ford, I
have to say that the scene is from _The Searchers_, not _My Darling
Clementine_.  Many directors today, according to my professor,
acknowledge _The Searchers_ as their favorite film, including George
Lucas.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 18:59:40 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!)

ins_ajbh@jhunix.UUCP (JABBA the HUT) writes:
>I watched Return of the Jedi on cable recently. If Lucas is
>planning to do another Star Wars movie. I have a few words for him.
>(in my best Sam Kinnison delivery)
>     <various and sundry screams>

While we're screaming at Lucas to get his act together, how about
telling him to GET A REAL PLANET!  Come on!  First, it was the
DESERT planet of Tatooine, then it was the ICE planet Hoth, then it
was the FOREST moon of Endor!  Please!  You would think the entire
universe was filled with single-terrain planets.  What's next?  The
Ocean planet?  The Very-Muddy planet?  The Asphalt-paved planet?

Chris Russell
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886/454-8950
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 06:50:01 GMT
From: mvs@meccsd.MECC.COM (Michael V. Stein)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

trash@oliveb.UUCP (Tom Repa) writes:
>I think the best reference for where George got the ideas for Star
>Wars is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell.  He is
>(was?) a anthropologist (socialoligist?psychologist?) who studied
>the myths of more cultures on this planet then I knew existed. He
>codified them into a concise "myth cycle" which summed up the basic
>plot of all adolescent -> adult "Hero" myths.

The director of the Mad Max movies has said in interviews that he
was also highly influenced by "The Hero with a Thousand Faces".

Michael V. Stein
Minnesota Educational Computing Corporation - Technical Services
UUCP    ihnp4!meccts!mvs

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 18:30:01 GMT
From: seismo!bdmrrr!potomac!jtn@rutgers.edu (John T. Nelson)
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Mumblings (Question, Best American Actors)

danny@itm.UUCP (Danny) writes:
>     Just some random thoughts that made themselves known today,
> during my perusal of .movies....
>
>     I've a few nagging scenes from a mostly forgotten B science
> fiction movie that I'd like to know the title of...

Perhaps someone out there can help ME with a movie that I recall
seeing on television in my childhood.  It was previous to 1968
(arprox 1966) and none of my friends who are movie and SF buffs are
able to identify it.  Are you up to a challenge?  Can you identify
THIS movie from my rather sketchy and obtuse description?

The film featured a giant super-duper computer called "The Unitron."
The name alone dates the film.  After its activation, people are
found dead.  MURDERED!  But by whom (or what?).  I distinctly recall
the image of one dead person found underneath a door with the
pneumatically controlled door still banging up and down on top of
him (or her).  Pretty grisly huh?

At the end of the movie the scientists gathered around the main
console of the Unitron (with Irwin Allen blinky lights in the
background) for the final whodoneit scene.  One of the scientists
announces that he knows who the murderer is and it ISN'T the
machine.  Better yet the machine knows and will now tell us all, and
the typewriter style console prints out the name of the scientist
that did the dirty work.

That's it.  Can YOU name this movie?

John T. Nelson
Advanced Decision Systems
1500 Wilson Blvd #600
Arlington, VA 22209-2401
(703) 243-1611
UUCP: seismo!{sundc,doqlci}!potomac!jtn
Internet:  jtn@ads.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 Apr 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #149
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Apr 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #149
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:

               Books - McCaffrey & Wyndham (2 msgs) &
                       Magic Shop Stories (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 02:58:08 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey

From: Gleep? <"NGSTL1::EVANS%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
>>I would like to hear if anyone else thought that _Moreta_ was the
>>best Pern book or not.
>
>I think I agree with that.  The ending certainly made it one of the
>most memorable.  _Moreta_ differed from the other books in the Pern
>cycle - I'm not quite sure how to characterize the differences.  It
>was certainly shorter, and, I think, more focused.  The other books
>have several "main" characters - _Moreta_ only has one.  You get
>very involved with her, which makes the ending more intense.  I
>also really enjoyed _Nerilka_ - you see the events in _Moreta_ from
>a different viewpoint.

Though I enjoyed the story and characters, I thought MORETA was
poorly written; the first paragraph of the book, alone, is terrible
and, unfortunately, a good example of what the rest of the book was
like.

I just read NERILKA two days ago, and found it to be extremely dull
and uninspiring.  I could IMAGINE sympathizing with the character,
and her situation reminded me of parts of the Harperhall books, but
I didn't really FEEL anything all through the reading, except the
chapter in which Moreta goes *between* - but then, my feelings then
were carrying over from my reading of MORETA.

I was also disappointed to find that I had paid $5.50 (can., mind
you) for a short story; I gather the mega-bucks were for the
illustrations - which were as dull and uninspiring as the story, and
incorrect to boot.

All the way through the book, Nerilka relates her story with
suggestions that the events caused or were caused by great changes -
or even not-so-great changes - in her character.  We are TOLD that
there is character development.  But I didn't see any of that in the
actual story.

I did once hear something about NERILKA being unfinished when it
went to print; apparently, McCaffrey had only completed the DRAFT,
but her agent picked it up and sold it.  Yes?  No?

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 87 03:23:06 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Mordecai Golin <princeton!mjg@rutgers.edu>
Subject: Re: Story Request - The Handmaid's Tale

> Discussing Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tail" reminded me of
>some feminist Science Fiction I read years ago.  Specifically there
>is a story whose title I can't remember but would like to recommend
>to some friends.  The plot concerns a woman from our time whose
>mind travels to a future where there are no men.  The body she
>inhabits (at least part of the time) belongs to another woman whose
>sole purpose in this new order is to carry babies.  It is possible,
>but not very likely, that the author was Joanna Russ.

Sounds to me like John Wyndham's "Consider Her Ways".  I don't think
you would say it was feminist -- in fact, when she is finally able
to return (and I forget both the mechanisms of going and returning)
she was willing to be imprisoned for arson or even murder to prevent
the discovery that was to cause the extinction of men.

It is true, of course, the all functions in the future society,
including those we think of as typically male, were performed by
women.

As you describe, the body to which she comes is of a Mother, a class
of huge women whose sole duty is to bear babies.  I recall
distinctly her disgust with the size of the meals she was served,
and her surprise when the body ate them willingly.

Like most John Wyndham's, a good story, well written in a clear,
unassuming fashion.  Hope you can find it.

Alastair Milne
Educational Technology Center,
UCal Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 87 03:49:16 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Post - End of the World stories

One powerful story set after the end of the world ("post-holocaust"
if you must, though I think that misuses the word "holocaust") which
I think receives too little attention is John Wyndham's "the
Chrysalids" (also published as "Rebirth").

This a moving, even tearing story about a group of children growing
to young adulthood in a future evidently millenia after what were
obviously global nuclear wars.  Nobody now actually knows what
happened, but they believe it to be the Tribulation (always
capitalised) sent by God to punish humanity.  In its aftermath the
moral "Blessed is the Norm" is the strongest of religious teachings.
Every animal, whether stock or pet, is examined at birth for any
deviations from the norm dictated for its kind; only when none is
found is the birth acknowledged.  If any is found, the animal is
destroyed.

Although one would like to think this treatment is reserved for
animals and plants, it is effectively also true for humans.  A
mutated human is a Blasphemy, and the mother who bears one may be
punished.

Seasons are considered good or bad by their rate of "clean" progeny,
and it is observed that when the wind is in the southwest, the rate
of Deviations and Blasphemies goes up badly.

But it is not the fault of the examiner that the narrator and his
friends were determined to be normal.  No examination he could have
made would have told him otherwise.  And it is sheer terrible luck
that the narrator's own father, the head of a farming household in
"Lab" (probably Labrador) is the loudest and most fearsome zealot in
the district.

The contrasts of characters, the genuine affections and deep loves,
the shocks and plot twists, and the strong empathy that arises with
the narrator and his friends make this a strong story well worth
reading.  John Wyndham's style is as clean and unobtrusive as ever.
Somebody once posted a message to sf-lovers suggesting that a
measure of good writing is that the story seem to flow of its own
accord, without the reader being conscious of the medium.  If so,
and I certainly think it is, then Wyndham may considered a very good
writer.  He has always been one of my favourites.

Read it, if you can find it, and see if you don't agree!

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 87 16:30:09 GMT
From: rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Magical Shop stories

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
> I am looking for stories that take place in, or are about, one of
> those magical shops full of interesting things, that appears out
> of nowhere. You know the type. Usually there is a wizened old
> shopkeeper who sells or gives the unsuspecting visitor some
> magical item that changes (or ruins) his or her life. If you know
> of any, please email me the title and author. (I know Harlan
> Ellison wrote a couple of them.) If anyone is interested, I can
> post a list later.  Thanks.

Piers Anthony's "On A Pale Horse" comes to mind as one story that
could fit into that discription.  Although the book does not dwell
for very long in the Shop it sets the stage for the rest of the
story.  Overall, I found the book easy to second guess.  The
charactors for me are too generalized and I didn't really care for
the religious implications or overtones...  Perhaps this is why I
never did read the rest of this series.

However, Anthony's "A Spell For Chameleon" series I _really_
enjoyed, though it is more fantasy that science fiction.

Bob Pietkivitch
ihnp4!ihlpa!rael

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 22:29:03 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Magical Shop results

Here are the results of my request for Magical Shop stories. I tried
to thank each person who responded individually, but sometimes the
mail was returned, so I'll thank you now. (Thank you.) Anyway, here
they are, with a description of each story by the person who sent
it.  (I haven't had a chance to look up exact authors, publishers,
etc., when the sender didn't know them offhand.)

From: Vicarious Oyster <oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu>

   A.E. Van Vogt (sp?) wrote one or two of them (or a novella and a
short story, or some such combination).  _The Weapon Shops of Isher_
is a close approximation of the title(s).  As far as local
acquisition of said stories, I don't know; ten tears ago Pic-a-Book
was a good source for SF, but it seems to specialize in porn and
comic books now (>- sigh! -<).

From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)

My all time favorite, going back to when I first encountered it in
grade three, is "The Ship that Flew", by Mary Norton.  The wizened
old shopkeeper has one eye -- turns out to be Odin.  The model ship
turns out to be Frey's Skimbladdr (spelling?).  It grows to any
needed size and travels through time and space.  A children's book,
but one of the best.

From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)

P.S.  There is an anthology titled "Magic for Sale" -- a collection
of just the stories you're looking for -- but the stories it
contains are uniformly bad.

From: seismo!sun!tomw@rsch.wisc.edu (Tom Westberg)

It may not fit your requirements, but _The Neverending Story_ by
Michael Ende begins with a rather mysterious book store, complete
with a crusty old man whose mysterious book is too dangerous for the
main character (a young boy) to read.

From: dplatt@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Dave Platt)

"Shottle Bop", by the late, much-lamented Theodore Sturgeon, is my
favorite in this genre.  It appears in at least one of Sturgeon's
collections (I think it's in "The Worlds Of...").

From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry)

About six to twelve months ago there was a good story in Isaac
Asimov's SF Magazine that was something like a magic shop story.
Was called "Wu's Lost and Found Emporium" or some such.  It
certainly featured a shop full of strange things that appeared out
of nowhere.

From: seismo!decvax!LOCAL!reeves@rsch.wisc.edu (Jonathan Reeves)

Not sure if this is close enough, but Isaac Asimov has written a
number of "George and Azazel" short stories.  Azazel is a
hyper-intelligent demon from another universe (or something like
that); George is a meddler and freeloader who summons Azazel to
straighten out someone else's life.  Azazel usually fulfills the
letter of George's request, but with unintended (and amusing)
results.  They've been in a number of issues of Asimov's SF Mag.

From: seismo!ukecc!anthony@rsch.wisc.edu

There is a story in Ellison's book _Deathbird Stories_ that is along
that theme.  I can't think of the name of it, but a man goes into a
shop trying to avoid the police and is sent, eventually, to a jungle
where he finds Prometheus.(sp?)

From: rael@ihlpa.ATT.COM (r.pietkivitch)

Piers Anthony's "On A Pale Horse" comes to mind as one story that
could fit into that description.  Although the book does not dwell
for very long in the Shop it sets the stage for the rest of the
story.  Overall, I found the book easy to second guess.  The
characters for me are too generalized and I didn't really care for
the religious implications or overtones...  Perhaps this is why I
never did read the rest of this series.

However, Anthony's "A Spell For Chameleon" series I _really_
enjoyed, though it is more fantasy that science fiction.

From: seismo!weitek!sci!daver@rsch.wisc.edu (Dave Rickel)

This will be almost no help, but--Isaac Asimov has been editing a
bunch of story collections.  One that appeared a few months ago has
a title something like _7 Wishes_.  Near the end of this is a short
story where a mild-mannered sax player hocks his sax, and gets this
carpetbag full of magic goodies.  If no one else provides more info,
send me mail and I can get the author and title (the author may be
Ted Sturgeon or Robert Silverberg).

I picked up a book of short stories by Henry Kuttner at a used book
store.  Inside this, there is a story (that was later made into a
twilight zone episode) about a man who would give people what they
needed.  In the twilight zone episode, this man was a
bummish-looking person who was selling knick- knacks out of a wooden
tray he was carrying around.  In the original, the man operated an
establishment that looked a little more like a jewelry store.


From: Rolf Howarth <ROLF%UK.AC.WARWICK.UU@ac.uk>

There was one of these (along with at least one of every other
fantasy cliche :-) in "The Light Fantastic" by Terry Pratchett, the
sequel to his amusing "Colour of Magic" book.

In the 2nd or 3rd Thieve's World book there was a shop that appeared
overnight and sold magical weapons, causing some chaos, but I don't
remember which story.

From: obrien@aero2.aero.org

My librarian friend points out that Avram Davidson came out with a
whole anthology of nothing but stories about magic shops.  It's
called MAGIC FOR SALE, and it's a 1983 Ace pb.

From: "FOLSM2::MORGAN%sc.intel.com"@relay.cs.net

One of the strongest sf novels in any category I read last year was
Charles deLint's "MOONHEART".  The discovery of a medicine bag in
the shop (by the young heroine...the wizened guys show up later)
opens the action out into "THE HOUSE" which in turn is a vehicle
that transports a very motley crew into one of several otherworlds
for a massive showdown with "THE EVIL POWERS".  This otherworld is a
kind of North American Indian Faerie, populated not only with
shaman, and totem beasts, but displaced Celtic bards of yore.  Very
rich, and after the original "suspension of disbelief", the author's
juxtaposition of scene's from modern Ottawa, with other dimensions
keeps the action entirely "plausible" (no comic opera stuff with the
bards & beasts...).  The mode of inter-dimensional travel is mental,
not mechanical, achieved by focusing from "the silences of the
heart".  Also enjoyed Marion Zimmer Bradley's "THE HOUSE BETWEEN THE
WORLDS".

From: Kevin Cherkauer <ames!sunybcs!ugcherk@rsch.wisc.edu>

I read a very good "magic shop" story called "Shottle Bop" ("Bottle
Shop" with the first letters switched). It was in a collection of
stories "by" Alfred Hitchcock, whatever that ever means. I think his
was the only name attached to the book.
  Anyway, the name of the book was _I Want My Mummy_.

From: Nick Fortune <seismo!mcvax!ttl!fortune@rsch.wisc.edu>

   Fritz Lieber: Bazaar of the Bizarre - a Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser
     story It's in one of the Swords anthologies (don't know which
     one)

   Terry Pratchet: The Light Fantastic. There is such a shop in the
      story and you actually get an behind the scenes view of
      how they move it around.

   Alan Dean Foster: Spellsinger III - not a moving shop, but one
      where you can buy anything from any universe.
      Perhaps not what you are looking for.

There is also a Hammer Horror film where the various frames are
linked by such a sinister shop, but I can't for the life of me
remember the title.

From: PAOLINO%UMDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu  (Dan Paolino)

  'Explanations, Inc.'     Nancy Kress
                           Fantasy & Science Fiction
                          July 1984

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu
williams@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 87 03:25:28 GMT
From: anthony@ukecc.engr.uky.csnet (Anthony Wilson)
Subject: Re: Magical Shop stories

There is a story in "The First Omni Book of Science Fiction" about a
man who collects exotic pets.  He goes into a shop where he buys
"pets" called Sandkings.  It might not be what you're looking for,
but it's a very good story.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 Apr 87 0902-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #150
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Apr 87 0902-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #150
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 14:30:48 GMT
From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

george@scirtp.UUCP (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) writes:
>So then, as a clarification, tyg said,
>> Dan, I'm sorry to have to do this under this subject; I'd planned
>> to incorporate what I'm about to say into a much longer article
>> on Boskone and the way people are reacting to the changes. But
>> your article was a reasonably considerate and well-written
>> comment about how you don't like the "secret society" and
>> "incestuous" attitudes that you perceive the committee having.
>So I said, The perception is entirely correct and the
>considerateness therefore entirely inappropriate.

I guess its hard to argue about "incestuousness" since in this
non-literal sense it comes in varous degrees.  But "secret society"
is nonsense.  The Boskone policies were debated and voted on at an
open NESFA meeting.  Anyone who wants to get the minutes of the
meetings and notices of upcoming meetings so they can attend them,
etc., need only send $15 bucks to NESFA for a one year subscribing
membership to get "Instant Message" (usually 23 issues a year) the
NESFA newsletter.  Once a member, you can also get and contribute to
APA:NESFA if you like and that can be done by mail with NESFA
providing repro at a reasonable rate.  You would also get any issues
of "Proper Boskonian", the club's fanzine, that come out.

>> The only problem is that you've got it all wrong; at least the
>> motivation behind the decisions made for next year.
>The alleged motivations are of marginal relevance when the result
>is that half the people who want to go get discriminated against,
>and no attempt is made to ensure that the half that goes is a
>representative sample of the whole.

I am not sure exactly what you are saying here but its certainly
true that NESFA voted about 9:1 to reject taking a representative
sample and to endorse the rules for 1988 that had been writing up by
the co-chairs of Boskone XXV.

>Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~
>1800.  Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other?  Across
>the street from each other?  You could obviously just become a
>distributed system.

1a: Its not so clear that you can get any hotel in Boston.  If they
check with the management of either the Sheraton or the Marriott,
the last two hotels that held Boskones, they will get extremely
negative reports.  The probability of a hotel checking and/or
believing the reports to be relavent is likely to be related to how
close to down town they are.

1b: NESFA has no desire to keep going through hotels.  Most everyone
involved in running Boskone wants it changed so that hotels will
want the convention back, as used to be true in the past.

>Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this
>willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands:
>any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of
>gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con.
>That's what I meant by the subject header.

You seem to have some feeling that NESFA would be opposed to other
cons.  Quite the opposite.  Although, in its 20 year history, NESFA
has only once been approached for help on a local con run by a
different organization, it provided it quite gladly.  You could
probably get quite a bit of assistance, particularly for a con of
different emphasis scheduled on the same weekend as Boskone.

>> To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by
>> over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the
>> Boskone committee.  They have *no* choice in this.
>This is patently false.  There is more than 1 small hotel in
>Boston.

A multiple hotel convention would have a different feel.  Probably
the only way to continue Boskone's growth would have been to move
all functions and large parties into a convention complex, run
shuttle busses, and scatter people in small numbers in hotels all
over the city and out to route 128.  Hopefully with only a small
number of rooms per hotel, the hotels would not be disrupted enough
to throw you out.  It seems like there would be a lot of risk
involved, a lot of additional facilities work, and a lot of praying
that the unique 24 strain imposed by a 1987 Boskone style SF con
would not get you thrown out of whatever convention complex you
used.

A final point: labeling the 1986 and 1987 Boskone policies "liberal"
and the new 1988 Boskone policies "conservative" consider the
following: with liberal policies, Boskone has suffered from
increasing problems in terms of vandalism, non-member hangers on,
and people uninterested in SF who are there for a weekend of free
booze and parties.  It has been kicked out of the two largest hotels
in Boston, the only ones with over 1,000 rooms.  Because of bad
reports from these hotels, other hotels, even those that had good
experiences with Boskone in the past, are in some cases reluctant to
consider it.
   Yet, with all that, there has been an increasing criticism of
NESFA from many Boskone attendees who want more liberal policies,
policies that would clearly cause Boskone to be even worse from the
point of view of hotel managers and those who think the convention
is for those interested in Science Fiction.
   So its seems reasonable from the point of view of a NESFA member
to think they have everything to lose by retaining liberal policies.
It's just likely to cause the loss of more hotels while non-fans,
feasting off of Boskone provided food and drink in the 24-hour con
suite, between getting booze from free parties, heap more criticism
on NESFA for not being liberal enough.
   Maybe the new rules for 1988 are a bit of an over-reaction but
that seems like what you would expect under these circumstances.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 05:17:01 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

Well, I've tried to be polite, and think that mostly I've succeeded
in trying to discuss why NESFA has taken the steps that they've
taken. But, occasionally, one sentence can sum up an opinion about a
posting quite well.

George Greene, Jr. is a twit who doesn't have the slightest idea
what he's talking about in regards to how to run an sf convention.

Ah, but that felt good.

To rebut his comments in order: (I'll use some paraphrases here; if
you don't care to trust them, feel free to go back to the original
article by Greene).

1) Greene states that a previous poster's perception of the Boskone
committee having secret society and incestuous attitudes is entirely
correct, without question. I seriously doubt that Greene knows any
member of the Boskone committee from last year, or any Boston based
member of NESFA. I know many of them. Based on that knowledge, I'm
very sure of my opinion that this is not the attitude they are
trying to convey. One must wonder how Greene obtained his
unqualified opinion about this. Spirit messages perhaps?

He then states:
>The alleged motivations [behind the policies for the 1988 Boskone]
>are of marginal relevance when the result is that half the people
>who want to go get discriminated against, and no attempt is made
>to ensure that the half that goes is a representative sample of
>the whole.

Huh? When the motivation is that there is no facility that is
willing to have the con that's physically capable of having a con of
greater than 2,000 attendance? I'd call that pretty relevant. While
4,500 people may "want to go" to next year's Boskone, that doesn't
do much good when the facility can only hold 2,000 (or less).
Wishing won't make it so. And one must also wonder how anyone could
even *define* a representative sample of Boskone, much less figure
out how to get that back next year. Besides, I, at least, can
certainly do without the part of such a sample which consists of
people coming solely for a drunken party.

He then goes on to comment:
>[The committee being forced to cut attendance due to lack of a
>suitable facility] is untrue.  People almost always have choices.
>The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and be
>held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling hotels.
>All other requirements are flexible.

Oh, really? It'd be nice if these people had a place to sleep. Or is
that covered under "vaguely resembling hotels"? Or a room large
enough to hold several hundred people for panels. Etc. And
"flexible". Such a lovely term. Which has a semantic content of
about zero.  Gee, based on this paragraph, we don't even need a
Boskone committee or staff; that's a flexible requirement! Just
everybody who'd like to go to a Boskone show up next President's Day
weekend at the Sheraton and do a Boskone! Get real George.  Have you
ever even been to a large sf con (attendance over a 1000)? Have you
ever been involved in organizing one? I doubt it.

>Point 1: there is more than 1 hotel in Boston with a capacity of ~
>1800.  Are any two (or three) such hotels near each other?  Across
>the street from each other?  You could obviously just become a
>distributed system.

Well, George almost manages to make sense here. If this had been
written as a constructive suggestion, I would've responded much more
politely. But George is just *so* sure of how obvious this is...

No, they can't just become a distributed system. Did you know that
the wind chill factor during this year's Boskone was constantly
subzero Farenheit?  I don't think many people would have been
willing to move back and forth a lot in those conditions. And before
George or anyone mentions moving to summer, well, Boston is very
popular for conventions. Particularly during the summer, as opposed
to winter. Hotels are quite probably booked for several years in
advance for the warmer months. Distributed large cons have been
tried before (mostly at Worldcons). With the exception of this
year's Atlanta Worldcon, (where the hotels were across a 4 lane
street from each other), it's never really worked successfully to my
knowledge.

Hell, you don't even know if there's such a geographic situation,
but you're already willing to tell NESFA what's obvious. Well,
what's obvious to me, as someone who's helped organize large sf
cons, is that in addition to fighting low temperatures, you'll have
even more problems with people wandering around doing vandalism and
the like. Spreading a con over 2 or 3 hotels would probably increase
the load on an already strained con committee more exponentially
than linearly. There are other problems which I can go into if
there's enough demand; most of them are a bit esoteric and probably
not of general interest. A quick obvious one is that you'll probably
need larger spaces for the art show, huckster's room, and large
program items than any single small hotel would have available.

>Point 2: If the relevant sub-committee of NESFA won't do this
>willingly, odds are that it will just be taken out of its hands:
>any group of the discriminated-against with the requisite amount of
>gumption and money is perfectly free to just stage a competing con.

Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's
complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do
that. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con will run into
exactly the same problems that NESFA ran into when they tried to
schedule next year's Boskone. And based on NESFA's well-deserved
reputation in fandom for running the best organized conventions, I
predict a major disaster for any inexperienced group of people who
tries to do so. Convention running is *work*, particularly *large*
convention running. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con as
their first attempt is asking for disaster.

Finally, responding to my comments:
>> To conclude, I'll reiterate; Boskone attendance has to be cut by
>> over half in one year, due to decisions by hotels, not the
>> Boskone committee.  They have *no* choice in this.
George states:
>This is patently false.  There is more than 1 small hotel in
>Boston.

Sorry. George's statement is the one that is false. He's made some
assumptions that he takes to be facts, without having any experience
to back them up with.

>Sam Brown's Law:
>Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>substance.

Amusing. George's style is to be offensive and his substance
consists of figments of an inexperienced imagination.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 87 14:34:26 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Boskone
To: dee@CCA.CCA.COM

From: dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
> Gee, lots of other people who contribute to this group seem to
> think that basing anything on money spent or the like is highly
> discriminatory and elitist.

Well, I am not sure just what is meant by discriminatory and elitist
in this context.  In the sense that 1500+ people who want to attend
will not be allowed to attend, SOME form of "discrimination" is
needed.  I think the fairest way to do this is to let each person
decide for himself how much attending Boskone is worth to him.

Isn't this at least as fair as "discriminating" against people who
have not attended three Boskones (I have attended two) and who have
not purchased any art (I would have, had I known it was necessary to
get into the next Boskone - I did spend about $200 on books), etc?

> [An auction] does not work very well due to problems with hotel
> reservations, travel plans, and just plans in general.  It would
> bias things towards those with lots of idle time who would not
> care if they did not know what they were doing that weekend until
> just a month or two before.

True.  But so does the present system.  I don't fit into any of the
approved categories, so I don't know whether I will be allowed to
attend, and it isn't clear when I will find out.

It would be best if NESFA had a good idea just how many people would
want to attend at each possible membership price.  They could then
set the price to whatever 2000 people are willing to pay.  An
auction is one way of finding out, but has the disadvantage you
mentioned.  Another approach is to simply ask everyone how much they
are willing to pay.  A disadvantage of this is that people may tend
to understate.  One cure for this is to not allow people in who
claim they are now willing to pay more than they said they were.

Is it certain that Boskone must be made smaller?  What about
multiple adjacent small hotels, or a cruise ship, or an outdoor con?
(If held outdoors, it should be moved from February, of course.)

>> I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering
>> to help out.
> I don' know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not so
> inclined.  Most people who work on the convention do so because
> they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than because of
> some feeling of guilt.

I do not feel guilty.  I do feel unwelcome.  I am now told I am not
allowed to attend the next con for any amount of money because I did
NOT help out at the last one.  It was never my understanding that I
was supposed to.  If someone enjoys it, more power to them, but I
enjoy panel sessions, buying books, and conversation.  That is what
I paid for and that is what I got.  I would like to do it again next
year but I am being told I am not welcome.

I don't like high prices any more than anyone else, but of what use
is an inexpensive con to one who is forbidden to attend it?

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 Apr 87 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #151
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Apr 87 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #151
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:

         Books - Humorous SF (8 msgs) & Requests (3 msgs) &
                 Some Answers (3 msgs) & Interview Excerpt

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 12:58 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Humourous SF

If you're interested in humourous SF, I can recommend a couple of
British novels by the author Terry Pratchet.  The first is called
_The_Color_of_Magic_ and is written in a style similar to Adams, and
I can't remember the name of the second.  The first is available in
paperback, but I don't think the other has been published here in
the states yet.  They are both absolutely hilarious, however.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: FRIDAY 04/10/87 12:16:51 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>
Subject: Re; Funny SF

Hmm... I didn't find the Myth series trite, as they are intended as
a spoof of a certain type of book 'Mentor and Sidekick' that is
pervasive in many genres... but that's personal taste; I don't
happen to like Doug Adams.

With that warning, there is a series of short stories, written by
Isaac Asimov that appeared (where else) in Isaac Asimov's Science
Fiction Magazine.  I refer to them as the 'George and Azazel'
stories, since they deal with a human named George and his
extradimensional aquaintance, Azazel, whose powers in HIS dimension
aren't quite what they should be, while in our dimension they are
quite impressive.  Due to Azazel's imperfect understanding and our
imperfect desires, the changes Azazel makes lead to some unexpected
and funny situations.  This isn't knee-slapping-rolling-on-the-floor
stuff, but definitely amusing.

George Madison

------------------------------

From: pearl@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Humourous SF
Date: 10 Apr 87 20:16:23 GMT

An absolutely Hilarious SF book (besides The Hitchhikers series) is
"Dimension of Miracles" by Robert Sheckly (I believe)

Cheers,
Steve
Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
US MAIL:  LPO 12749, CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
UUCP:  ...{harvard | seismo | pyramid}!rutgers!topaz!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 04:00:09 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Funny SF

howard@pioneer.UUCP (Lauri Howard) writes:
>And now for something totally different, I'm looking for more funny
>SF writers along the lines of Sheckley, Tenn, Adams, and Harrison.
>I have read a couple of Asprin's "Myth..." books; I found them
>mytherably predictable and trite.  Any suggestions?

Have you ever read anything by Stanislaw Lem? He's a Polish SF
writer.  Though his themes are usually pretty deep and involve the
fate of societies, he almost always brings his point across in a
ridiculously hilarious way by "reductio ad absurdum."
  Once in a while he drags on and on about certain philosophical
concepts, but most of the time things are funny. I have not read
very much by Lem at all (about 6 of the short stories in _The Star
Diaries_) but what I have read has been for an English course in SF,
where the instructor gives us an idea of the kind of stuff Lem
usually writes.
  Lem is often referred to as an exceptionally literary SF writer,
and he himself denies that he is an SF writer. No matter -- he's
very good.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 20:24:55 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Humourous SF

Another humorous sf recommendation: Somtow Sucharitkul's "Mallworld"
stories, collected in the book of the same name.

In a more serious vein, Sucharitkul (pronounce it like it's spelled;
it's easy!) is the author of the Chronicles of the High Inquest: THE
LIGHT ON THE SOUND, THE THRONE OF MADNESS, UTOPIA HUNTERS, and THE
DAWNING SHADOW, which I recommend highly.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 20:46:38 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Humourous SF

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>In a more serious vein, Sucharitkul (pronounce it like it's
>spelled; it's easy!) is the author of the Chronicles of the High
>Inquest: THE LIGHT ON THE SOUND, THE THRONE OF MADNESS, UTOPIA
>HUNTERS, and THE DAWNING SHADOW, which I recommend highly.

oops. That should be THE DARKLING WIND. The first two books have
been reissued in expanded editions with the supertitle (opposite of
subtitle) The DAWNING SHADOW, and I got confused for a minute.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 22:19:31 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Humourous SF

   Let's not forget Harry Harrison's _Stainless Steel Rat_ series.
If you want tongue planted firmly in cheek adventure, I can think
of few better.

T. Kogoma

P.S.  My personal favorite of all the books is the first half of _A
Stainless Steel Rat Is Born_.  After that, It goes a bit downhill.

cs2633ba@izar.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 87 13:11:46 EST
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Request for Humorous SF

Replying to Howard@pioneer.arpa:

     If you can find some of L. Sprague DeCamp's non-Conan stuff, it
should amuse you.  In addition to "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall
of Serpents", both about a rather brash psychologist, I can
recommend "The Collected Short Stories"(title?).  While shaky on the
title, I *know* it was published by Ballantine.  Some of the topics:
a mermaid on a ladies' swim team; an icthyologist who has to breathe
water for a while; a Neanderthal passing as Irish (no letter bombs,
please, I'm just reporting!); and, among others, some of the trouble
one can get into trying to grow flesh back onto fossils (the method
seems reasonable).  There is also a collaboration (with Fletcher
Pratt) called "Tales from Gavagan's Bar", complete with pink
elephants and time-warped restrooms.
     Keith Laumer is also a good bet.  His stories about Jame
Retief, "the only interstellar diplomat with honor, courage, or
ability" are quite funny.  Go easy though-- you can OD quickly.  The
titles all mention Retief (most?).  Laumer's other humorous series
is about a penniless young draftsman who winds up in a number of
predicaments by shuffling probable realities (somewhat as in
Zelazny's Amber stories...).  Lafayette O'Leary is a likeable sort,
and the stories are better than the Retief series.  (IMHO) Two of
the titles are "The World Shuffler", and "The Shape Changer".
There are two others, but I can't remember the darn things just now.
     Finally, I will put in a plug for Spider Robinson.  "Callahan's
Cross-time Saloon", "Time Travelers Strictly Cash", and "Callahan's
Secret" contain some tall tales and OUTRAGEOUS stinking puns.  They
would leaf me green with envy, if I weren't too busy howling.  There
is also a short story collection called "Anitnomy" (no, I didn't
misspell the element ! ).  His style is very reminiscent of
Heinlein at his best.
     Anahoo, hope you enjoy these.  Good hunting!

Dave Wegener
20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa.

PS-- Another good DeCamp is "Lest Darkness Fall", where an
archeologist zapped back to ancient Rome (5th Century A.D.) tries to
avert the Middle Ages.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 08:33:41 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!sysdes!minster!john@rutgers.edu
Subject: Some Requests

I'd like to hear what net-Americans think of various pieces of
British S.F.  In particular, has anyone read any novels by the
Englishman Keith Roberts: his alternative history novel "Pavane", or
his post-holocaust novel "Molly Zero", for instance?

Finally, can anyone tell me the author and title of a (fifties?)
S.F. story in which a computer programmer working on a simulation of
a community for advertising purposes discovers that he is but a
program in a greater simulation being run in a world with
oddly-named continents: 'America', 'Europe' and so forth? Shades of
Frederik Pohl's "The Tunnel Under The World", but not quite.

John A. Murdie
Dept. of Comp. Sci.
University of York
England
ukc!york!minster!john

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 19:48:34 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Short story identifacation request

This is a request for the title and author of a short story.

The story is about a person who lives his life "episodically".  What
this means is that each day when he wakes up he might be 20 years
old in 1960 or 40 years old in 1980 or ... . This usual happens to
him every few weeks. (I don't remember the actual dates; they may
not have been given.)  The protagonist tries to keep this feature of
his life hidden, since he has no desire to wind up in lunatic
asylum.  Thus he keeps very good notes, diaries, etc.

One trivial incident is that when he goes to the bank to look at his
safe deposit box, where he keeps important papers, a bank employee
makes a joking remark about "rewriting his will again"; the hero is
a bit surprised, and very annoyed with himself for creating an "in
joke" that could surprise himself.

SPOILER FOLLOWS:
(Does anyone really not read spoilers to completely unknown things?)
After a few pages in which the author gives us the flavor of this
mans life, the hero encounters a women whom he knows from later in
his life, and he accidently greets her, although he thinks that is a
mistake because she shouldn't know him.  To his amazement, she knows
him -- she lives the same sort of life he does.  At this point they
try to do something neither of them has really tried before: to
change the future.  They want to wind up married, rather than suffer
the unhappy marriages that they find/found themselves in in the
future.  (At least him; I don't remember if she was married.)  It
turns out that they can.  That is the high point of the story, there
are a few more pages, and then it ends.  END SPOILER

I am sorry if my spoiler is confusing, but English needs a few more
tenses to state time travel stories clearly.

My thanks to anyone who can help me on this.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf%lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu@CRNLCS.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 10:44:43 GMT
From: seismo!utai!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse@rutgers.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Book request (fantasy, but not so labeled)

Lacking a fantasy-lovers newsgroup (mailing list, to you ARPAnauts),
I am resorting to sf-lovers in the hope that enough take it to mean
"speculative" as well as "science" fiction.

I am looking for a book I read years ago (maybe ten years?); it was
in the public library of the village I lived in at the time (Kaslo,
in the interior of British Columbia).  It was clearly intended as a
children's fairy-tale book, but what I remember of it falls squarely
into what I would now call the fantasy genre.

The book was a hardbound book with large pages (probably on the
order of 8.5x11 inches, though as I say, it's been years).  It was
fairly full of illustrations, but they were nice detailed line
drawings, not the sort of outline-with-bright-color-fill drawing you
find in second grade primers.

The book was set in China (possibly Japan, but I don't think so).  I
remember the following points, in no particular order:

   Nasty evil sorcerer (dressed in black I think?).
   One character is turned into a figurine (possibly by Nasty
      Evil Sorcerer?); I think the figurine was made of jade.
   The protagonist is carried somewhere by a dragon (rides on
      the dragon maybe?).
   The protagonist visits the garden of the Gods (no, not the
      one in Colorado :-) and has a meal there; on returning he
      finds that a large amount of time (month? year? more?) has
      passed here.  Or maybe he doesn't eat because he knows (has
      been told?) this would happen?
   Protagonist is on a quest of some sort (to restore the
      figurine to life maybe?), but is otherwise a normal human.

*Any* leads that may help me track this book down will be greatly
appreciated.  Surely I'm not the only person on this network who has
read this book?  Or if I am :-(, does anyone know how I'd go about
finding a good hypnotist?

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
{ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse
think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: OH the embarrassment
Date: 9 Apr 87 22:54:19 GMT

The name of the story is "A !Tangled Web".  Joe Haldeman wrote it in
1981 after Jerry Pournelle claimed that every SF author had written
an alien bar scene story.  The story is in Haldeman's anthology
"Dealing in Futures".

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 01:33:57 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa@rutgers.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Short story identifacation request

>The story is about a person who lives his life "episodically".
>What this means is that each day when he wakes up he might be 20
>years old in 1960 or 40 years old in 1980 or ... . This usual
>happens to him every few weeks. (I don't remember the actual dates;
>they may not have been given.)  The protagonist tries to keep this
>feature of his life hidden, since he has no desire to wind up in
>lunatic asylum.  Thus he keeps very good notes, diaries, etc.

Since nobody seems to have commented on this (as opposed to the
usual case when 300 people give the same response to th same
article), I think I'll answer this.  The story is "If This is
Winnetka, You Must be Judy", by F. M.  Busby, published in the book
Universe 5, edited by Terry Carr.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701@JHUVM, INS_AKAA@JHUVMS, INS_AKAA@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 19:45:01 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com
Subject: Re: No Men

john@minster.UUCP writes:
>... can anyone tell me the author and title of a (fifties?) S.F.
>story in which a computer programmer working on a simulation of a
>community for advertising purposes discovers that he is but a
>program in a greater simulation being run in a world with
>oddly-named continents: 'America', 'Europe' and so forth? Shades of
>Frederik Pohl's "The Tunnel Under The World", but not quite.

Well, for what it's worth (I've read the stuff more than 10 years
ago, and the book is currently in Europe...): The book is titled
`Simulachron-2', and the author's name is `Daniel F. Galoye' (take
the end of the last name with a grain of salt - but there WAS a `y'
in there...). Quite a nice story, though being as old as it is, its
technology is not convincing (not its fault), and the main character
is still guessing long after the reader knows (hopes) how the story
will end...  Hope this helps.

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 14:43:15 GMT
From: bt@ssl-macc.co.uk (Brian Thompstone)
Subject: SF Authors in Interview

From a BBC radio interview (this week ) with Arthur C. Clarke: (All
words approximate, but no intentional distortions introduced.)

Interviewer:
    It has been said that plots are not your strong point.
Famous SF writer:
    Yes, well I've never been very good at plots. But then, in
science fiction it isn't really necessary.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 Apr 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #152
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Apr 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #152
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 04:46:02 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working
>model for next year's con:
>
>Statement of purpose: "The primary purpose of Boskone is to be a
>science fiction convention of 2000 attendees or less, aimed at the
>mature science fiction fan."
> ...
>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal
>guardian.
>  This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is
>unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems. However,
>a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who seem to view
>Boskone as a place to get away from parental supervision.

In my experience (school trips to U.S. cities, music camps, etc.),
teenagers who go to events in order to get away from parental
supervision are usually grabbing at the chance to do all the things
they wouldn't be permitted to do if they were being supervised...
Pretty obvious, right?  On our music department's trip to Boston,
for example, I discovered that all my friends intended to dress up,
go out to try to get into some clubs, get absolutely stinking drunk,
flirt with everybody (usually of the opposite sex) in sight, stay up
all night, make lots of noise, and spend all their money.  Not
necessarily because they WANTED these things; just because (the
staying up all night especially) they weren't normally allowed to do
these things.

(I know SO MANY kids that couldn't wait to reach legal drinking age
-nineteen, here-, and fully intended to drink themselves sick when
they did.  It all seems so silly, to want to feel awful just because
you weren't allowed to before.)

Anyway, it seems to me that most of the rowdy type of teenagers
would be put off by the other rules.  The fact that the con will be
closing down at a set time, and not running all night.  The fact
that they won't be able to get a drink everywhere they go; con
suites generally have far stricter legal-age monitering than open
parties.  The fact that it won't be much of a party con.  OF COURSE
there will still be teenagers wanting to go that will want to stay
up all night.  But there will be many of the old folks staying up
late too.

They've taken the fact that there were rowdy teenagers at the last
Boskone and decided on this age thingy WITHOUT considering WHY they
were getting ROWDY teenagers.  I realize there are problems that
need to be solved right away, but I think this particular trend is
serious enough to demand experimentation; I think it's more than
likely they wouldn't have a problem with rowdy teenagers once the
other restrictions were put into effect.  Refusing entrance to kids
whose parents aren't interested in SF is refusing entrance to those
kids who can make the most of access to the con!

I was fifteen/sixteen for my first year of going to cons on my own.
I went to AD ASTRA in Toronto, Maplecon in Ottawa, the Worldcon in
Baltimore...  I made my own arrangements, I paid my own bills, I
stayed with my own long-distance friends.  I had a wonderful time,
and I did nothing illegal or particularly impolite or inconsiderate.
(I'm a good kid, ain't I? :^) I learned things about my art and
writing, I met people I wouldn't otherwise have had a chance to meet
(and am waiting for a chance to see again)...  There are other cons
besides Boskone, but suppose Boskone had been the one in my area.
Suppose my parents weren't willing to let me travel out of our area
for a con, but they were willing to let me go to THIS ONE on my own.
I have to miss out because they don't have the time to babysit me?!

I'm sure you get the idea.  I'm upset because, in trying to restrict
the number of rowdy teenagers that attend Boskone, the committee is
taking measures against TEENAGERS, NOT against ROWDY TENNAGERS.  Why
can't they cut down on the things rowdy teenagers are going to the
con FOR, rather than cutting down on all teenagers to avoid the
rowdy ones?  It's NOT fair, and its unfairness in inexcusable in my
eyes.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 87 05:06:39 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes:
>castell@UMass.BITNET writes:
>>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal
>>guardian.
>> This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it is
>>unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems.
>>However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who
>>seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental
>>supervision.
>Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm
>REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm).  You're
>damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause
>no problems.  Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by
>people under 18 than by those over 18??!!  Or is this just a
>convenient restriction to make because it's politically correct?
>Put it another way: If it can be shown that the vast majority of
>troublemakers at prvious cons were male, would NESFA then consider
>a policy of restricting men from attending?

Yeah.  (Talk about appropriate phrasing... :^) Can the con committee
prove that they're not just afraid of teenagers, or afraid of a
group that is usually very obviously as comfortable in the mundane
world as they are in any other?  They can't say "You're not allowed
in if you're a media fan".  After all, what if they offend some
nice, quiet, respectable media fan who isn't the type responsible
for the general havoc media fans are "known" to cause.  I guess it's
okay to offend kids, because they don't have legal rights.

(I should point out that other than this one rule I'm happy with
their new policies.  They won't ever please everyone, of course, and
I've got friends that won't think of going because the new rules go
against their preferences.  But it's shaping into the type of con
I'm most likely to enjoy.  If only...  I don't think I want to go to
a con at which the only kids present are those who are the least
likely to behave properly without parental supervision.  And how
often have you seen parents of 13-14 year olds and over at cons
actually supervising their offspring?)

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 00:33:20 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes:
>>>7. No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or legal
>>>guardian.
>>>  This was a painful policy to have to agree to. We know that it
>>>is unfair to those kids who show up and don't cause problems.
>>>However, a number of problems have been caused by teenagers who
>>>seem to view Boskone as a place to get away from parental
>>>supervision.
>>Since I'm sure every member of the con committee is over 18, I'm
>>REAL SURE this was a painful decision! (heavy sarcasm).  You're
>>damn right it's unfair to the VAST MAJORITY of young fans who cause
>>no problems.  Is there any PROOF that more problems were caused by
>>people under 18 than by those over 18??!!  Or is this just a
>>convenient restriction to
>Well, one class of problems was energetic groups of people roaming
>the halls, banging on doors occasionally, and doing similar minor
>obstreperous things, not just till 2AM or 4AM, but in some cases
>there were large roving packs still going strong at 6 or 7 AM.
>Even if you are not bothered by the noise, this sort of thing
>(24-hour high energy level) was a prime reason Boskone was thrown
>out of the Sheraton.  It is not interested in getting thrown out of
>its next hotel.

Excuse me.  I'm nineteen and have therefore just recently graduated
from the group they're excluding.  I'm offended by the above.  One
of the reasons I had complaints about AD ASTRA and party cons in
general was that there were large roving packs of 25-45 year olds
roaming the halls, banging on doors, yelling plans from one end of
the hall to the other with NO consideration of other hotel guests,
making rude remarks during films so that most of the film itself
couldn't be heard, making passes at every living being of the
opposite sex, no matter what age or whether or not that person was
with company, complaining loudly to the hotel staff and never giving
THEM any consideration...

Teenagers may cause problems, but I don't think you're considering
just how obnoxious the "fine examples" are being.  This restriction
looks more unfair by the article.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 02:44:34 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone

And another thing...

dee@CCA.UUCP (Donald Eastlake) writes:
>and in any case, these are one year restrictions to be re-evaluated
>next year.

If these restrictions don't end up causing the concom any pain,
there won't be any reason to change them.  The age restriction could
very easily stay put, without them ever finding out whether or not
it is needed when other restrictions are in place.  This is the kind
of bad experimentation they tried to warn us against in school; too
many variables.  Again, it's TOO unfair.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 87 23:20:04 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes:
>>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
>>...We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers.
>Why wasn't this ever instituted?  I don't think I would have
>initiated a convention *without* this to begin with!  Stupid move
>on NESFA's part.

When I was seventeen, I sold some of my artwork in an art show &
auction, I bought some artwork in an art show & auction, I attended
a writers' workshop after submitting a story months before, I
attended many panels about sf & fantasy, writing, copyright laws,
art... and I voiced my opinions during those panels.  I went to one
or two parties, was offered alcohol at one but turned it down...  I
was awake but sitting quietly in the film room `til four a.m., and I
went to my room quietly and tried not to step on anyone.  I went to
the con alone, travelled from Toronto to Ottawa and back by bus, and
paid my own way with saved-up money.

Yep.  Undesireable, all right.  I showed up a lot of other
scumballs...

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 23:50:40 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone (what do you want in a con)

bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau) writes:
>Tom Galloway writes:
>> A lot of people have been bemoaning the changes which are being
>> made to Boskone, going on about how "it won't be the *fun* con it
>> used to be".
>I admit to being one who made light of the list of Boskone
>"mandates".  I also admit to being among the uninitiated when it
>comes to science fiction conventions.  [NESFA regulars may now hit
>the "n" key.]  After reading the list of "don'ts", however, I was
>struck by the distinctly unfriendly atti- tude directed toward
>outsiders and the feeling of regimentation conveyed

Others have tried to make this point before.  Boskone already has
too many hopeful attendees, without encouraging "outsiders".  I
would applaud them if they published a flyer encouraging newcomers
to the "con scene" to plan on attending one of the OTHER local cons,
where they'd get a chance to meet a lot of people they might have
trouble FINDING at Boskone.  If and when they've decided they really
like cons and would like to go to what's going to be a more serious,
concentrated convention, THEN they can start planning for a way to
get a Boskone membership.

Someone else recently posted an article about the fact that Boskone
didn't have a lot of choice in whether or not to cut down on their
numbers, one way or another.  I disagree with the age-related
restriction for the same reason I'm strongly against "Men's Clubs"
or "Women's Clubs"; the members have access to important things for
all the wrong reasons, and cut themselves off from half -or more- of
the world.  I also think that the concom is doing a very poor
experiment for a supposedly science-conscious group.  But this does
not mean that I'm discouraging the new ("Classic") Boskone.

Please, remember that the committee is putting restrictions into
place to prevent problems THAT HAVE ALREADY OCCURRED, and to insure
that there can be a future Boskone of some kind.

>I suppose I am handicapped here in that I haven't attended sf cons,
>fun or otherwise.  Still, I think of a convention as primarily a
>social gathering.

I'm glad you do.  I guess this means that Boskone is not a con for
you.  Given that a membership is hard to get at this point, you're
better off than many.

Back to the "age-young" issue: I was talking to someone else about
this recently, and I mentioned what the concom had said about the
"under 18" restrictions.  They suggested that many of the teenagers
seemed to view Boskone as a chance to get away from parental
restrictions.  This is probably very true in a lot of cases!  But
haven't any of you seen an awful lot of "grown-ups" that seem to
view cons as a chance to get away from SOCIETY's restrictions?  I've
seen too many, and they make a lot of noise and often cause
unpleasant "incidents" at cons.

Can anyone give me a good definition of "hypocrisy"?

-Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 87 23:59:49 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Boskone

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
>Perhaps NESFA should get together with many other SF organizations
>also near the sea, and purchase a large cruise ship.  On Boskone
>weekend it

I'm really not at all keen about the idea of being stuck on a ship
with the type of partiers I've seen at cons.  Pulling weapons on
people because "it's funny" goes along the same lines as holding
someone over the side of a ship -"it's just a joke".

Hell, I don't have to go, right?  Right.  But if Boskone or any
other con were to set up onboard a cruise ship, I'd hope and pray
that they made a lot of the same restrictions they did for the
upcoming Boskone.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 20:34:15 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

becky@sq.UUCP writes:
>I'm sure you get the idea.  I'm upset because, in trying to
>restrict the number of rowdy teenagers that attend Boskone, the
>committee is taking measures against TEENAGERS, NOT against ROWDY
>TENNAGERS.  Why can't they cut down on the things rowdy teenagers
>are going to the con FOR, rather than cutting down on all teenagers
>to avoid the rowdy ones?  It's NOT fair, and its unfairness in
>inexcusable in my eyes.

I'll agree with this.  It never ceases to amaze me that at many
public functions I've attended (only one con, so far, since they're
all out of state -- anyone PUHLEEZE want to come to the I-X center?)
there are ``mature adults'' who act far worse than I did at age 12.

Kids aren't the only ones who go looking for rowdycons.  Cut down on
the rowdiness enticers and the people who come, no mater what age,
will be the ones you want.  (You won't see me complaining about the
lack of free booze, for example.)

Brandon S. Allbery
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 Apr 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #153
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Apr 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #153
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:

            Books - Friedman & Kurtz & Lee & Moorcock &
                    Piper & Stephenson & Robots (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 15:07:04 GMT
From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!chinet!megabyte@rutgers.edu (Mark E.
From: Sunderlin)
Subject: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_

I saw a one page write up in Walden Book's SF 'zine, "Xignals" on
the new author C.S. Friedman and her book, _In Conquest Born_. It
looked to be a really good book.  Does anyone have any news on this
new talent?

Mark E. Sunderlin
UUCP:seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder
     ihnp4!chinet!megabyte
(202) 634-2529
Mail:IRS  PM:PFR:D:NO
     1111 Constitution Ave. NW
     Washington,DC 20224

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 14:15:51 GMT
From: knappa@swatsun (Alison Knapp)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> Why am I posting this to the net, instead of Email? Because I have
> heard of another book by Kurtz, called "Codex Derynianus"
> (spelling possibly incorrect). I've seen it listed in Books in
> Print, but have never seen a copy, and have been told by Sherry
> Gottlieb of Change of Hobbit Bookstore that it doesn't exist. If
> anyone has concrete information on whether this book exists,
> please let me know!

In the latest edition of Forthcoming Books (not always the most
accurate source, but all we've got), _Codex Deryniamus_ is still
listed as coming from Borgo Press, but the date of publication in
now "not set." (It was first supposed to come out in the summer of
'86 and then the spring of '87.)  If we keep pestering Borgo maybe
they will manage to actually publish it someday instead of torturing
hapless Servants. It must be run by Loris. :-)

Alison Knapp

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1987 11:00:29-PDT
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Science fiction is forever.)
Subject: re: request for Tanith Lee titles

In Issue 144, Mary Malmos asks for titles by Tanith Lee.  Under
Category 1, Rewrites, I will add "Red As Blood."  This was published
recently, I believe, since I got it from the Science Fiction Book
Club last year.  It contains rewrites of several familiar fairy
tales.  This was my introduction to Ms. Lee's writing, and I was
amused.  She has some kinky twists to some "standard" plots.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 01:43:19 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

ee171aai@sdcc13.ucsd.EDU writes:
>  "The Warhound and the World's Pain" is a very good book written
> in the vein of the Eternal Champion (Though it is only indirectly
> related to these.)

I disagree with the "indirectly".

Although not labeled as a "champion eternal" story, "The Warhound
and the World's Pain" clearly is one.  There is a fair amount of
plot/imagery shared with the other books; enough that there should
be little doubt about this.  We have a cynical hero, questing
against his will.  Von Bek is nominally evil, yet he must work for
the good of mankind.  The whole plot is very reminiscent of the more
obvious champion stories. In fact, in "the dragon in the sword"
explicit reference is made to the grail, which Von Bek searches for.
Moreover, we meet the same compliment of characters in warhound as
in the other stories: a faithful sidekick, a lover, a knowledgeable
yet reticent advisor.  We also meet the same supernatural
characters: the winged cat, lord Aroich, etc.

Your other assessment is absolutely correct: It's a great book.  I
happen to think it is Moorcock's best.

Cheers,

Scott Schwartz
Swarthmore College Computer Science Program
UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz
AT&T: (215)-328-8610

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 20:26:17 GMT
From: cmcl2!delftcc!bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: Short story identification request

cpf@batcomputer.UUCP (Courtenay Footman) writes:
>This is a request for the title and author of a short story.
>
>The story is about a person who lives his life "episodically".
>What this means is that each day when he wakes up he might be 20
>years old in 1960 or 40 years old in 1980 or ... . This usual
>happens to him every few weeks. (I don't remember the actual dates;
>they may not have been given.)  The protagonist tries to keep this
>feature of his life hidden, since he has no desire to wind up in
>lunatic asylum.  Thus he keeps very good notes, diaries, etc.
>My thanks to anyone who can help me on this.

I don't think I can help you on this one, but it does remind me of
something written by H. Beam Piper, namely his "Time and Time
Again".  It is contained in _The Worlds of H. Beam Piper_ (Ace).

I looked up the story, and found that *it* contains a reference to a
character named Florian de Puysange from James Branch Cabell's _The
High Place_ who had a similar experience.  It also refers to a Dunne
who wrote _Experiment with Time_ (Piper refers to this Dunne -- I
think it is John Dunne -- elsewhere in his time-travel oriented
stories.  Is this a real person?  Is it the famous poet?)  I haven't
read the Cabell book, but it might be your title.

Hope this helps.

warning -- SPOILERS follow concerning Piper's "Time and Time Again"

In H. Beam Piper's "Time and Time Again", the protagonist, dying
from a atomic blast in WW3 in 1973 (the story was Piper's second or
third, ca. 1947), wakes up in 1945 as his 13-year-old self, and
re-lives his life a second time.  He has to hide the fact that he's
an adult from his father, tries to change his personal history as an
experiment, resolves to engineer a future in which his father
becomes President, the WW3 *he* lived doesn't happen, etc.

Piper fascinates me with his weird ideas concerning reincarnation,
and even more so, with his concept of alternate time lines.  Oh,
yes, his stuff is good space opera (or time-travel opera?) too.

John L. Wynstra
Apartment 9-G,
43-10 Kissena Blvd., Flushing, N.Y., 11355
(allegra,delftcc,cmcl2,columbia,philabs)!phri!bc-cis!john

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 01:45:03 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C)
Subject: Re: The BIG U

>Here's a scoop on a little known book. The Big U.
>   This could possibly be one of the most unusual books ever
>written.  The first time I read it, I was stuck in a car for 8
>hours with nothing to do, so I read. The book is difficult to get
>into, because it starts out in full swinging strangeness. The first
>time its read, it is mearly funny. Then looking back, you begin to
>laugh, so you read it again. This time its funnier. And so on and
>so on.
>
>I heartily recommend the BIG U by Neal Stephenson to anybody with a
>strong and overwhelming imagination.

I went out and got this book after reading the above message.  I
found it in the regular fiction section of the bookstore.

I agree that it's funny.  In fact, it's a brilliant satire on life
in a large college dormitory and, to a lesser extent, on college
life in general.  I lived in a dorm for many years so I had no
problems getting into the book.  After all, life in a college dorm
is strange anyway.  This one should be required reading for anyone
living on campus.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 04:44:36 GMT
From: cpro!asgard@rutgers.edu (J.R. Stoner)
Subject: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

ccastkv@gitpyr.UUCP (Keith Vaglienti) writes:
>You You might as well ask why everyone who has ever written a story
>containing a robot hasn't been sued by the first person to use a
>robot in a story.

O.K.  I knew that Saberhagen wrote the berserker wars stories long
befor Galactica.  Here is a question with some possibilities:

What reference in literature first made use of the terms "robot" and
"android"?

I think that Frankenstein's monster could be classed more as a golem
than an artifact.

Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a reading
from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal Robots) [I
think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but I am not
sure about it.]  I can't remember if this play predated Metropolis
but I don't remember the use of the words robot or android in
Metropolis.

J.R. Stoner
asgard@cpro.UUCP
asgard@wotan.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 16:49:07 GMT
From: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes:
>What reference in literature first made use of the terms "robot"
>and "android"?
>
>Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a
>reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal
>Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but
>I am not sure about it.]  I can't remember if this play predated
>Metropolis but I don't remember the use of the words robot or
>android in Metropolis.

The play "R.U.R."  was the first use of the word "robot", which
comes from a Czech word meaning "slave" or "slave labor". I believe
(but am by no means sure) that Asimov coined the word "robotics".
I've wondered about the origin of "android" for a while myself...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 19:18:28 GMT
From: princeton!motown!bunker!hjg@rutgers.edu (Harry J. Gross)
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes:
>Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a
>reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal
>Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but
>I am not sure about it.]

   R.U.R. was by Karl Kapeck.  The word ROBOT is not slang, but
actual czeck.  It means 'worker'.

   In my copy of the play, there is a forward which I believe states
that the play is the first place that the word ROBOT was used to
refer to a mechanical huminoide.  (I must admit that I am not 100%
certain, as I am at work, and the play is at home!).

Harry Gross
..!bunker!hjg

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 05:39:21 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes:
>What reference in literature first made use of the terms "robot"
>and "android"?
>
>Some years ago I was a given a drama assignment to perform a
>reading from a czech play called R.U.R. (for Rossum's Universal
>Robots) [I think robot was also originally a czech slang word, but
>I am not sure about it.]

R.U.R. is credited as the first story to use robots.  As for calling
them that: "robot" is a westernization of the Czech word for
"worker".  (It should be noted that the R.U.R. ``robots'' were
actually biological in nature (Martri puppets, anyone?), not what we
call robots).

Brandon S. Allbery
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@case.CSNET
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 23:46:19 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

Unless my memory fails me, the Russian word for "work" is "robotl"
or thereabouts. So while Capek may have been the first to use the
word robot in its now-familiar connotation, I think he probably had
a sound basis in the Slavic languages for it.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 04:07:33 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>I believe (but am by no means sure) that Asimov coined the word
>"robotics".

Asimov just claimed the invention of the word "robotics" for himself
in the April 1987 issue of F & SF. Modest of him, don't you think?
He says it's even attributed to him in things like the Oxford English
Dictionary and others, or whatever.

"Gee -- Mr. Clarke invents the communications satellite, and all Mr.
Asimov can come up with is a *word*! And not even a *really* new
word at that, as all he did is add a suffix to 'robot!'
  "Gee, Mr. Asimov, can I have your autograph?
  "*Pleeease?*"

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 06:48:18 GMT
From: asgard@compupro.com (J.R. Stoner)
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>wondered about the origin of "android" for a while myself...
>Typical construction from classical roots.  `andro'`oid' =
>`man'`like' (but I don't know if `oid' was from Greek or Latin or
>etc.).

Weeellllll, that does not really answer my original query about the
origin of 'android' in SF literature.  I know it is a construction
from greek roots, but I was looking for an attribution like that for
Karel Capek and 'robot'.

BTW did you know there is a useful book about learning how to write
programs called 'Karel the Robot'?  I have source code for the
example automaton called karel here on the Gateway and one of these
days I am going to figure out how to use it (for teaching
techorabble how to not be afraid of the machines).

J.R. Stoner
asgard@cpro.UUCP
asgard@wotan.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 23:04:28 GMT
From: s.cc.purdue.edu!ahh@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>I believe (but am by no means sure) that Asimov coined the word
>>"robotics".

   You are correct.  He did.  At the time he was writing his robot
stories, he thought the word was the logical name for the science of
designing and building robots.  Later, he found out that he did, in
fact, create the word.  It had never been used before his stories.

>Asimov just claimed the invention of the word "robotics" for
>himself in the April 1987 issue of F & SF. Modest of him, don't you
>think? He sys it's even attributed to him in things like the Oxford
>English Dictionary and others, or whatever.

     How does modesty enter into the issue?  He did coin the word,
and it *has* been adopted into general usage (one of my roommates is
a grad student in EE and working on robots--I have seen the word on
his *textbooks*).  Dr.  Asimov is stating a fact, not trying to
impress anyone.

>"Gee -- Mr. Clarke invents the communications sattelite, and all
>Mr. Asimov

  Arthur Clarke *mentioned* the idea of artificial satellites in a
paper in the fifties.  He didn't *invent* the communications
satellite.  He even says (to this day) that it wasn't that big of a
deal.

   Mr. Cherkauer, I have noticed in this posting (see above) and
others (the "Nightfall" discussion) that you seem to have a definite
bias against Isacc Asimov.  As a matter of fact, you seem to devote
a significant amount of effort to slamming him.  Is there some
reason for this?  Or, are you just attacking him because he is
generally regarded as one of the "greats" of Science Fiction?  Or is
it personal?  I wonder, since you haven't missed an opportunity to
flame him, yet you give no reasons for such flamage.

Brent Woods
PHONE: (317) 743-6445
USENET:{seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!h.cc.purdue.edu!ahh
BITNET:PODUM@PURCCVM
USNAIL:Brent Woods
       500 Russell St., Apt. 19
       West Lafayette, IN  47906

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Apr 87 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #154
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Apr 87 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #154
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Apr 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:

           Books - DeCamp & Farmer & Friedman (2 msgs) &
                   Hubbard & Lessing & Rand &
                   Short Stories (3 msgs) & 
                   A Request Answer & Non-trilogies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 13:13:32 EST
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
To: cpf@inssun9.tn.cornell.edu.
Subject: "Wall of Serpents", by Decamp and Pratt

Courtenay--
     Apologies for letting you hang lo these many moons, but I have
had a major workload-induced hiatus in my pursuit of sf-lovers.  I
obtained my copy of WoS by mail from Phantasia Press, of Huntingdon
Woods, MI.  They issued it in hardback about 2 or 3 years ago.  I
haven't seen it in paperback, but it might well be out there since
"The Compleat Enchanter" was reissued within the last year.  If all
else fails, ask your bookstore to let you see their "Index of Books
in Print, by Author" (sic).  That has helped me more than once.

Best of Luck,

Dave Wegener
20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 16:11:28 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!brawn@rutgers.edu (Andrew Brawn)
Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer

jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes:
>1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place?

Have you read the fifth book?  If you haven't it should answer that
question.  If you have I'm not going to say what I think to be the
answer as it would be a spoiler.  Another problem, I have forgotten
the title of the fifth book, brilliant soul that I am, but it was
released only last year or the year before.

>B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I would
>used some "bigger" characters in the book.

I think that Twain, Burton, Cyrano are bigger that life.  I think if
Farmer had used world leaders, such as JFK, Churchill, their stories
would have been predictable, contrived, or both.  Too many people
have firm opinions on those individuals.  I found it interesting
that Farmer used characters that others would not have thought to
use.  They are people whose lives the author obviously found very
interesting.


>But I would have included someone like John the Baptist. or at
>least a pope or apostle.

Jesus is mentioned in the fifth book.  I can't say what happened to
him in Farmer's world (another spoiler) send me e-mail if you want
to know.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 16:11:02 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_

megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes:
>I saw a one page write up in Walden Book's SF 'zine, "Xignals" on
>the new author C.S. Friedman and her book, _In Conquest Born_. It
>looked to be a really good book.  Does anyone have any news on this
>new talent?

Yes. I've read the book, already, and it may be the best piece of
Science Fiction published this year.  It should please both Hard SF
folks and people looking for solid characters and plot.  It's big --
500 pages or so.  It has a wraparound Whelan cover (one of the most
impressive Whelan's I've seen).  The book had me up until 2 in the
morning two nights in a row trying to get through it.

And, believe it or not, it is a first novel.  The most impressive
first novel since (at least) MacAvoy's Tea With the Black Dragon.

You will want to buy this book.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 05:20:52 GMT
From: dayton!viper!ddb@rutgers.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_

megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes:
>I saw a one page write up in Walden Book's SF 'zine, "Xignals" on
>the new author C.S. Friedman and her book, _In Conquest Born_. It
>looked to be a really good book.  Does anyone have any news on this
>new talent?

I finished reading this book earlier this week.  I thought it was
very well done.  While not by any means a simple clone, it's very
likely to appeal to people who liked Lois McMasters Bujold's books
_Shards of Honor_ and _The Warrior's Apprentice_.  (The publication
dates, if nothing else, absolve C.S. Friedman from the charge of
cloning.)

This books is a clear **** (Hi chuq!).  I may award another half
star after a month or so and another reading.

I'm stalling, trying to come up with a plot summary for those who
like such things, but I can't.  Not even an equivalent of "A guy
with furry feet finds a ring and throws it in a volcano."  The book
HAS a plot, and characters too.  Two main cultures, both somewhat
derived from ours, which are at war with each other and have been
for tens of thousands of years.  Very powerful\ main characters on
both sides.  And opportunites for them to meet.

Oh, go read the book yourself.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 87 18:19 PDT
From: Disaster Area <8440827%wwu.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

I have been reading a very long, but very good book by L. Ron
Hubbard called Battlefield Earth.  I was wondering if anyone has
read any of his other SF works such as the Mission Earth series and
if they are any good.

Dave Kinsman

------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 19:57:31 GMT
Subject: Is Lessing SF?

From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@rutgers.edu
> It's a curious thing.  I have for a couple of years now seen her
> work classified as both Fiction Proper and Science Fiction in the
> book-stores and libraries.

This is easily explained.  Lessing is a "serious", "mainstream"
writer who has now written some Science Fiction.  Therefore, the
people who assign books to shelves are somewhat confused about where
to put the SF ones.  Since she's not a genre author, they can't just
dump them in SF, but they do seem to belong there, and so they end
up in both places.

From: mimsy!mangoe@rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
> These books are the kind that drive the genre-definers mad.

Trying to define a genre is always problematical.  If innovation is
still possible, the next book to come along might be one that forces
us to re- evaluate our criteria.  However, the placement of books
for sale does not primarily reflect such an analysis in any case.
For example, Gene Wolfe's Soldier of the Mist, which might be
regarded as an historical novel if written by someone else, tends to
be put in the SF section because that's where the author's known.
Or imagine where you might find The Man in the High Castle if it
weren't written by P. K. Dick.  The process also works in reverse:
look, e.g., for Don DeLillo's Ratner's Star (?sp).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 05:01:35 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@rutgers.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand

I would recommend that anyone wanting an introduction to Ayn Rand
start with _Anthem_, a short novel.  It is much more
"science-fictiony" than either _The_Fountainhead_ or
_Atlas_Shrugged_, and it doesn't stop all action for fifty-seven
pages while John Galt spells out Objectivism for the slow of mind.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the books (although most of her
female characters are wimps! sign of the times, I suppose), but
plowing through 1084 pages of text can be daunting.

". . . and what did she mean, slow of mind?"

Karen Black

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 22:59:25 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@rutgers.edu (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Another addition to short story list

I'd add "Slow Sculpture" by Theodore Sturgeon to the list.  It won
both Hugo and Nebula awards, and I think deservedly.

Another good choice, although a bit longer, is Roger Zelazny's "The
Doors of his Face, the Lamps of his Mouth" (I hope I got that
right).

Both of these stories have very good character development.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 19:33:45 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Addition to short story list

ahh@s.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP writes:
>From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
>>How about "Flowers for Algernon" by (oh rats---I can't remember
>>who did it now).  It was one of the most moving and unique stories
>>I have ever read (including non-sf stuff).
>
>      It was written by Daniel Keyes, and you are quite right about
> it.  It was an extrememly good novella (it even won a
> much-deserved Hugo).  It was later expanded into a novel (in my
> opinion, not as good as the original, but still very powerful).

You are both right about "Flowers for Algernon" being very, very
good.  The only reason it wasn't included in the best short story
list was length.  By the way, I knew I'd forget a few of my
favorites in a quick posting.  Those I've remembered so far are:

   Brave to be a King           Poul Anderson
   The Persistence of Vision    John Varley
   Lollipop and the Tar Baby    John Varley
   High Infidelity              Spider Robinson
   Melancholy Elephants         Spider Robinson

arole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 87 23:48:52 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Short Stories

From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
>Someone asked about the short story and mentioned that a lot of
>discussion has gone into some of the major epics.  I would like to
>add my 2,000,000 quatloos to the proceedings.
>
>Short stories are short.  They are designed to be read in one
>sitting (at

True.  But I'll read a good book in one sitting too, and I'll do it
because I can't put the book down.  With short stories, I've too
often found putting the book/magazine/manuscript down to be far too
easy.

>least according to Poe they are).  Thus, when you are under a lot
>of time constraints from work or school, you can still scarf down a
>short story before bed.  You can't do this with a novella and many
>is the time I started to read only a chapter of a book and ended up
>finishing it at 4am.  Plus, the short story generally has a strong
>theme, something many novels somehow miss.  How

I don't read for theme, and though I generally like one to be there
it's not ever going to be of major importance unless it's coming
from the protagonist's head and/or heart.  "Plus", many novels have
powerful, in-depth characterization, which short stories often miss
(except in very rare, very special cases).  And, as I've often said,
I read for plot and theme and gimmicks, etc., only where they affect
the character that I must grow to love in order to appreciate those
things.

>many epics have good strong themes?  Many tend to be a jumble of
>themes and some of them don't even bother.  This can be good since
>many adventure stories would only be tied down by a theme, but I
>still prefer a nicely stated point.

So do I.  But I don't like it when it's shoved down my throat.  I
don't know that this is true of the average sf story, but the
stories we read in school (which were short stories admired by other
than schoolteachers) were often beautiful, powerful stories that
missed out on being loveable only by making Theme so goddamned
obvious.  The authors' voices -and prejudices- were too loud, and I
know I HAVE found this in sf stories.

>The short story is, as we all must know, a very precise art form;
>similar to painting with only a small brush.  All the work of
>making up a universe and characters must be done quickly and
>succinctly, with no room for meandering.

I agree with this, and it's why I like some poetry, too.  (I
considered posting something about this topic earlier, but I
couldn't find a way of describing short stories well enough that I
could say why I didn't enjoy them as a rule...)  But it is exactly
due to the above that truly wonderful short stories are so rare.
You could say the same about novels, I suppose.  But if novels are
easier (though more time-consuming) to write, OF COURSE there are
more being written, and novelists are more likely to spend the time
I want them to on characters and emotions, painting their worlds and
ideas into more than just worlds and ideas...  (I always fall into
these "nonsense" trends when words fail me, don't I? :^) I have read
some WONDERFUL short stories.  But I can't get up the
courage/interest/excitement to wade through the AVERAGE short
stories in magazines to find the GOOD ones, because average short
stories are lacking what average novels generally give me.

Then again, maybe I just wasn't exposed to the right stories at the
right times.  I haven't TRIED to read many short stories in quite a
while.  But now that I'm used to reading novels, I find the average
short story ends too soon...  I guess there's just no hope for me.

Of short stories I have loved...  I liked the Niven stuff when it
was read to me, but I was eleven, so what did I know?  I've loved
almost every Tanith Lee short story I've read.  CJCherryh's
Cassandra really got to me, and I loved the stories of Longyear's
CIRCUS WORLD - but then, that's another series.  At the moment, I
don't REMEMBER any other good ones, and that's part of the problem,
isn't it?  I think the short story is a wonderful art-form, but (at
the moment, anyway) it's not for me.  Perhaps there's just a trend
toward what novels have (or lack) that short stories don't, and
that's why novels and series are so heavily discussed in these
screens.

It's true, too, that if a writer can cause his readers to love his
characters as much as he does, they're bound to be interested in
seeing more of them.  I've nothing against series as long as the
writer continues to explore new ground within that set-up (Piers
Anthony is an example of where this has not happened), and as long
as the main character(s) continue to grow and change.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 10:12:47 GMT
From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@rutgers.edu (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: No Men

john@minster.UUCP writes:
>Finally, can anyone tell me the author and title of a (fifties?)
>S.F. story in which a computer programmer working on a simulation
>of a community for advertising purposes discovers that he is but a
>program in a greater simulation being run in a world with
>oddly-named continents: 'America', 'Europe' and so forth? Shades of
>Frederik Pohl's "The Tunnel Under The World", but not quite.

Two books that spring to my mind are Daniel Galouye's "Counterfeit
World" and Christopher Priest's "A Dream of Wessex". The first one
is maybe the book you're referring to, a story about a computer
simulated world used for marketing studies - and where a programmer
discovers that the world he's living in is maybe also a great
simulation.

I strongly recommend Galouye's books - they're a bit Dick, a bit
Bloch and usually very clever written. And speaking about "A Dream
of Wessex" by Priest - I don't want to spoil the story for anyone.
A clue: it's similar to "Counterfeit World" - a story about a
simulated world.

Does anybody else have any pointers to similar "simulated
worlds"-books?

Kent Sandvik
UNISYS UNIX Support, SWEDEN
PHONE: (46) 8 55 16 39 job,
            733 32 35 home
ARPA:  enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:  ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 87 15:34 CST
From: <DAVIDLI%SIMVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: L'Engle and the non-trilogy

   I'd like to point out that not ALL stories have to be tightly
coupled.  I'm sure some of you have read the Retief books, some of
you have read the Niven books, etc.  Why demand that all books by an
author conform to some marketing idiot's idea of what sells?  The
trilogy/quatrology/quintology is vastly over-rated.  In many ways, I
PREFER to read books that are only loosely linked to each other.
   Other genres of fiction don't have the fixation with trilogies
that the science fiction/fantasy readers have come to expect.  I
also read most any Nero Wolfe/Sherlock Holmes novel/short-story I
can get.  They are complete books, in and of themselves ... and the
same can be said for the "non"trilogy of L'Engle.

Dave Meile
davidli@simvax.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Apr 87 1100-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #155
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 87 1100-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #155
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:

               Books - Cherryh & Harrison & Roberts &
                       Tiptree (2 msgs) & Magic Shop Stories &
                       The Copper Crown & The Hercules Text

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 16:42:17 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: C.J. Cherryh (Tully's Allegiance) (**SPOILER**)

Sorry, fellows, Josh Talley is the Union spy who is converted to the
newly formed Alliance by his loyalty to Damon Konstantin in
DOWNBELOW STATION, and ends up in a rather ambiguous relationship
with Signey Mallory at the end of DOWNBELOW STATION and in
MERCHANTER'S LUCK.  He's not the same character as Tully, the poor
Terran who struggles with the translating gadget through the Chanur
series.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 15:44:39 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Humourous SF

cs2633ba@izar.UUCP writes:
>   Let's not forget Harry Harrison's _Stainless Steel Rat_ series.
>If you want tongue planeted firmly in cheek adventure, I can think
>of few better.
>
>P.S.  My personal favorite of all the books is the first half of _A
>Stainless Steel Rat Is Born_.  After that, It goes a bit downhill.
>Capt. Gym Quirk

You really liked only the first half of the *last* book the best.
Not a resounding recommendation. I liked them all. My personal
favorites being all but the last book. I was never into flashbacks.

seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 20:05:36 GMT
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Molly Zero, Kiteworld

From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!sysdes!minster!john@rutgers.edu
> In particular, has anyone read any novels by the Englishman Keith
> Roberts: his alternative history novel "Pavane", or his
> post-holocaust novel "Molly Zero", for instance?

I read Molly Zero a while ago and was quite impressed.  Those
interested in literary technique (or those who claim English has no
present tense) might note that it is narrated in 2nd person present.
(Question: what else has been written in this way?  I know of only
Monique Wittig's The Opoponox, but I'm sure there must be others.)

One problem with Molly Zero is that I couldn't quite figure out the
politics.  Just what was the nature of the government?
Totalitarian?  Left?  Right?  Why did they have such elaborate
schemes for dealing with people like Molly?

Keith Roberts has also writen another post-holocaust novel -- in a
completely different universe -- called "Kiteworld".  It was
supposedly excellent, but I didn't find it so.  It contains a number
of separate but partially connected stories.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87  13:56:54 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Feminist writers

I sure hope Brad Templeton was joking when he referred to James
Tiptree, Jr. and Andre Norton as men; they're both women, and both
(coincidentally) named Alice.  Both originally wrote under
pseudonyms to counter the bias they saw in SF against women writers.
Norton's gender has been known for at least twenty-odd years, and
"Tiptree" (Alice Sheldon) revealed herself as female in the mid-70s,
to the great surprise of the SF community.  Tiptree has also written
under the name Raccoona Sheldon, primarily to publish stories that
were more female-oriented without blowing her cover.  To my
knowledge, she has stuck to the Tiptree pseudonym since her identity
became known.

Lisa Evans
Malden, Massachusetts

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 22:52:35 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Tiptree

Something I found ironic was Harlan Ellison saying, in _Again,
Dangerous Visions_, that while Kate Wilhelm was the woman to watch
in the next few years, James Tiptree, Jr., was the man to watch. (By
"to watch" he meant that they were the best of the up-and-coming.)

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 03:17:17 GMT
From: lawler@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Robert Lawler)
Subject: Re: Magical Shop results

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>Here are the results of my request for Magical Shop stories.
>
>From: Vicarious Oyster <oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu>
>   A.E. Van Vogt (sp?) wrote one or two of them (or a novella and a
>short story, or some such combination).  _The Weapon Shops of
>Isher_ is a close approximation of the title(s).  As far as local
>acquisition of said stories, I dunno; ten tears ago Pic-a-Book was
>a good source for SF, but it seems to specialize in porn and comic
>books now (>- sigh! -<).

A. E. Van Vogt wrote two such books.  The short stories were
preliminary versions, contained later in the books.  Both were first
published in the 1940s. The books, _The Weapon Makers_ and _The
Weapon Shops of Isher_ can be read separately; the order is neither
clear nor important.  However, these are two classic novels, and
some of the best books I have ever read.  In fact, read any Van Vogt
you can obtain (especially _Slan_). My copies were printed by Pocket
Books in 1979, though I don't know if they are still available.

Robert Lawler
lawler@amt.media.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 03:45:31 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: The Copper Crown

Well, I read _The Copper Crown_ last night.  I've a few quibbles and
questions.

(SPOILERs here, I guess)

It seemed to me that the only one who got hurt was Aeron (the
queen).  Other people were killed, but she was the only one who got
injured-- her leg got racked in combat, she got cut to pieces
battling Bres, she sprained her ankle, she got snow sick, she kept
getting depressed over what she was doing and what she had started
and all that.  I don't remember any one else having anywhere near
these problems.

(end specific SPOILERs, start general SPOILERs)

Has anyone figured out the rules for combat?  The rationale is that
all galactic civilizations (ALL?  come on--the galaxy is BIG) have
these rules about what you are allowed to do when fighting on a
planet.  I can't seem to make these rules consistent.  It seems to
be ok to use lasers against incoming shuttles and against
fortifications.  It seems to be ok to use these lasers against
ground targets that aren't fortifications (on one scene, the queen
and her consort and her consort's sister are standing on a chunk of
ground that has been heated by laser fire.  There didn't seem to
ever have been fortifications on this chunk of ground).  Which seems
to imply that it is ok to use lasers against cavalry or infantry.
On the other hand, we never actually here about lasers being used
against cavalry or infantry.  It seems to be ok to use bombs (the
enemy had bombers--what use are bombers without bombs?).  It is
apparently not ok to use rifles or arrows (although there is one
scene where a trooper is carrying a blaster).  Tanks may or may not
be legal (the ground is apparently flat enough for cavalry, but too
broken for tanks.  I haven't figured that one out).

Anyone figured out what a laser-sword looks like?  Sounds
suspiciously like a light-sabre to me.  There is one scene where a
laser-sword gets shorted out in a convenient fashion--the rationale
sounded pretty bogus.  Anyone ever here of a gold-colored laser?

Magic is pretty damn potent.  There are rules against destroying a
planet by atomics, but not by magic.

I couldn't figure out any rules for magic--it seemed to be able to
do just about anything.  Oh well.

Besides the combat idiosyncrasies, the thing that really bothered me
was Arthur.  Around the 21st or 22nd century, this set of worlds
spawned a hero named Arthur.  Arthur had an adviser named Merlin.
Arthur married a princess named Gwynevire (sp?) and had two children
(this differs a bit from either the Mallory Arthur or the Welsh
Arthur, i think.  The Mallory Arthur only had one child--Mordred,
off of his (half)sister Morganna.  The Welsh Arthur seemed to have
several children).  Arthur had a sister named Morganna, who was a
potent magician.  Arthur disappeared in combat, leaving a message
behind that he would return in their hour of need.  Oh.  Uther was
King before Arthur.

No one seems at all surprised at the similarities between this
Arthur and the legendary Arthur.  The legendary Arthur was mentioned
once (I think).

This Arthur didn't return as the legendary Arthur was supposed to.
He seems to have been born and raised in the 21st or 22nd century.
This might be ok if you allow for reincarnation.  However, there are
indications that this Arthur is going to make another appearance in
book two or perhaps book three of the trilogy--I bet that this time
he won't be reincarnated, but will actually return.

There were a couple of minor quibbles.  The quarantine asteroid that
the crew of The Sword were originally taken to was three light-hours
away from where The Sword was originally detected.  Excuse me.
Three hours away at non-hyperspace speed.  This could have been
quite a bit further if you allow for relativistic time-contraction,
of course, but that doesn't fit too well with the rest of the story.
Anyway, three hours is awful close.

Similarly, the exploration method of the Sword seemed pretty silly.
The ships were run out to somewhere between one and several hundred
light years in hyperspace, then dropped back to normal space,
accelerated to almost light speed, and went cruising through star
systems looking for stars with inhabited or inhabitable planets.
Keneally seems to think that stars are much closer together than a
light year.

The Keltic worlds orbit around six stars.  These seem to be the only
six stars contained within the curtain wall.  Unlikely, i'd think--
that the only six stars in a region of space should all have
inhabitable planets.

I get the feeling the Keneally (sp?) doesn't really understand
galactic dimensions.  Too bad.

All the aliens we encountered were human.  There were some non-human
intelligences mentioned, but we never saw any.  There are
indications that humans and the Sidhe are interfertile, so the Sidhe
should probably also be classed as human.

The Kelts are quite tall--circa 7 feet.  Most tall people I know of
seem to have knee or ankle problems--the Kelts didn't.  Their planet
is supposed to have a slightly lighter gravity than Earth--maybe
that explains it.

There were some differences between these Kelts and what I thought I
knew about the historical Kelts.  These don't keep slaves, they ride
horses, their art is said to be only representational (not
abstract).  Their castles sound more like Norman castles.  It said
in the book that these people returned to Earth from time to time
until the 20th century, and appropriated things that they liked, so
maybe that explains it.

It said in the book that the FTL drive was almost ridiculously
simple, but it implied that the fifth century Kelts built their own
spaceships.  The FTL drive may be simple, but I suspect that life
support wouldn't be.  Anyway, you could look upon that as selective
memory--more likely the Kelts found a cache of Atlantean space ships
(the hyperdrive seemed too slow for the low-tech spaceship--an
air-tight barrel with a hyperdrive).  I guess you could always wave
your hands and say magic.

Oh well.  Portions of the book were fun, but it had problems.  Part
of the problem might have been that i was expecting something along
the lines of _The High Crusade_, which was clearly unfair on my
part.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 17:32:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The "New Ace Science Fiction Specia

  I just purchased 'The Hercules Text' yesterday, and am quite
dissapointed with it.  The characterization was a bit on the
male-chauvanist side (women always "smiling prettily"; a good deal
of description of the physical attributes of women, and none of
those of men), but not as bad as some I've seen.  The plot was
standard 'first-contact' with variations.  What really bothered me
though, was one of the plot devices:

                    ******spoilers follow******

Some time in the near future (198x-199x) a group analogous to SETI,
picks up siganls that, due to their nature, can only have come from
an intelligent source.  Instead of some form of universally
understandable communication, like mathematical or chemical
formulas, it turns out that the aliens are transmitting a computer
program.  Now this is no ordinary computer program, the brilliant
theoretical physicist deduces, but rather one that, when loaded into
a digital computer and analyzed for statistical patterns (as one
might do to an alien transmission to try and learn their language),
will start itself up, and display some message on the screen, or do
whatever.  It is established that the word length is 16 bits.
However, when that is tried on a mainframe computer, nothing of
import happens.  The following exchange (paraphrased) then ensues:

Brillant theoretical physicist (BTP): We've tried that on all of our
        larger machines but to no avail.  I'm begining to wonder if
        a self-initiating program is possible at all.

Extremely well liked administrator (EWLA): (Glancing at personal
 computer on BTP's desk): Wait a minute.  I don't know much about
        computers, but I do know that larger ones are more
        complicated.  They have more places to put things and more
        instructions are needed to make them run.

BTP (Following EWLA's glance): Do you mean to tell me that a
        personal computer can do things that a mainframe can't?

EWLA:  It's worth a try...

BTP runs out of the room and returns with an Apple Computer (why he
didn't use the one on his desk is unknown).  He inserts the disk
containing the alien transmission, then exclaims: But we don't have
any search programs on this machine!

EWLA:  Well, rewrite them!

BTP grimices at the thought of how long that will take.

Astronomer(genius) (A(g)) (who has been watching all along): Wait a
second.  He leaves the room and returns with another disk:
        Star Trek.  It's been around here for ages and it includes a
        section which allows the Enterprise to analyze the Klingon
        tactical positions.

BTP: What the hell, let's give it a try.

And they do.  Not suprisingly, the alien's program wakes up, takes
over the screen, flies the Enterprise around (all characters say: It
doesn't do this in the game!) and shows them some sort of rotating
cube.

So, we are asked to believe that:

1. The idea of a self-initiating program actually makes sense.

2. A race of beings who have never had contact with the people to
   whom they are sending a message, elect to send said message in
   the from of a computer program, expecting that program to run on
   a system which they know nothing about.

3. This program, once started, is able to control output devices
   like graphic screens, and generate sophisticated displays with
   them.  Not only that, but it is able to modify existing
   executables and merge itself with them.

The worst thing of it is, the aliens are sending an executable, ie a
binary image, rather than a source file.  I cannot accept this.  It
is barely possible that the aliens might send a source file, and
instructions for writing a compiler for it, but an executable???!!!
Sorry.  This seems like a 1950's conception of a computer, and its
capabilities, and I'm sorry the author is burdened with it, for it
makes the book (for me at least) unreadable.

I am, by the way, a software engineer.

Peter Webb.
{allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb,
...!ulowell!applicon!webb
...!raybed2!applicon!webb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Apr 87 1158-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #156
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 87 1158-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #156
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Star Trek (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Mar 87 08:31:10-EST
From: Daniel Burstein <D-BURSTEIN@CUTC20>
Subject: warp speed limitations

A possible explanation for the mixed and inconsistent warp speed
limitations:

1: the engines themselves are generally the limiting factor, tending
to overheat when run steadily at warp 8 (although they can slip this
high for a short period)

2: Above warp 8, the deflector shields start to get overloaded by
micrometeors (NOT meteorites- the "ites" refers only to such when
they impact the Earth) and other space debris.  This occurs at
different rates of speed depending on the amount of "garbage" in the
area.

   Accordingly, areas near a star system or close by a planet are
dirtier, and force the ship to go relatively slowly.  Interstellar
areas are better, and inter-galactic are the best.

   This is why the group from Andromeda was able to push the ship
ever faster...

3: The final limitation occurs above warp 11, in which the ship
structure itself starts decompensating

Danny Burstein
d-burstein @ cutc20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 87 17:02:23 EST
From: Mike Garcia <MTG%CORNELLC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Universal Translator in Star Trek IV

I don't think that there needs to be any problem with the Universal
Translator not working with the Probe in Star Trek IV.
Conceptionally the machine would require feedback to allow it to
learn the language it is trying to communicate in.  Perhaps the
Probe, which was sent to communicate with whales in the Earth's
oceans was not interested in (programmed to?) teaching space- or
land-creatures to speak whaleish.

Just because it was massive does not mean that the Probe had to have
more than a limited intelligence.  Consider the "intelligence" of a
cruise missile for example.

The impression I got was that the Probe's Creators could not
conceive of any sapient life form that did not live in oceans.
Notice that the Probe's Creators did not come themselves, rather
they sent a robot emissary.

I felt that the Probe's Creators had been communicating with other
intelegences for a long time, but that the Probe was one of first
attempts to "go and see", prompted by the loss of communication with
the Earth's whales.  Also I don't think the Probe's Creators had
hands (claws, tentacles, etc.).

See how much can be read in the tea leaves if you are willing to
suspend disbelief.

Mike Garcia
MTG@CORNELLC

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 87 16:31:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Universal translators and Whalespea

From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
>In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their magic
>universal translator to interpret the probe's probing?

I saw Leonard Nimoy speak at MIT on Tue, Mar 17, and in the question
and answer period that followed his talk, he addressed this very
point.  He wanted to make a point about the mystery of the universe,
and the unlikelyhood that we, as a race, will ever be able to
understand all of it.  It is only arrogance, Nimoy claimed, to
believe that the concepts upon which the probe's language is based
have any analogue in human society.  In other words, there is more
that just the language barrier to consider when trying to translate
an alien language; a common set of semantic devices (by which I mean
concepts that carry meaning) must exist as well.  In a lighter vein,
he also raised the question of the cinematic or dramatic problem
that translation would pose: "What would you like it to have said?
'Hi!  Been looking for you! Wherever have you been?'" (paraphased)
This got a good laugh out of the audience.

This brought up SETI, of course, and he claimed that while he had no
objections to it, he did think it was arrogant of us, and did not
expect much in the way of communication ever to arise from it,
though the knowledge that we are not alone might in itself be worth
the effort.

>... If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud
>("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*,
>surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish?
>whalese?).  but given a universal translator as a premise, anybody
>got any speculations?

I claim that the inconsistency between "Metamorphosis" and STIV
exists, like many others, because the creative process that
generated Star Trek has been overseen by many different people, all
of whom have their own beliefs about how the technology will work,
and most of whom failed to check earlier shows for precedents or
didn't care about consistency.

Peter Webb.
{allegra|decvax|mit_eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!webb
{amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!webb

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 21:29:09 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker)
Subject: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Not the gay discussion)

Okay all you fans out there....

Before we start picking apart STTNG (Star Trek: The Next Generation
for you spell-it-out fans), let's all work from the same set of
information.

The following is a greatly edited version of the unofficial STTNG
info archives, as collected by Shoshanna Green, edited and and
places corrected by me, and contributed to by a collection of
people, mostly by email exchange.  Since David Gerrold has now
revealed (almost) all of this in public, we feel free to post.

To the best of my knowlege (and my knowlege is pretty good) this is
accurate stuff.  The current shooting date is the first week of June
(info courtesy Susan Sackett).  By the way, almost all of this
information has been confirmed by one of the following three people
within my earshot 1) Gene Roddenberry, 2) David Gerrold, 3) Susan
Sackett.  The change from Macha Hernandez to Tanya Yar for the
Security Chief comes from a letter from Gene Roddenberry dated March
13th, and is the only change not in David's latest Starlog piece.
Gene didn't say I couldn't pass it on, so I will.

Finally, a request....

PLEASE do not hassle the folks at the ST offices about this, by mail
or any other way.  They are VERY, VERY busy trying to put out the
best Star Trek they can.  Once the show airs, they're fair game, but
until then, cool it.

If anyone has anything to add (that is well confirmed...and more
current) feel free to join in.

So, without any further ado.....

   The show should be on the air in fall 1987.  It is being done
directly for syndication, not for a network; this means that
Paramount has direct control over it instead of having to do
whatever the network owning it wants, but also means that they have
to spend their own money instead of a network's to make each
episode.  The series will be offered first to the stations which
have carried the old Star Trek all these years, as a sort of "thank
you" to them.  Many may not be able to afford it; Gerrold says that
they will be able to buy the series with commercial time, which
Paramount will then turn around and sell, if they can't come up with
the cash.
     The new series will take place 150 years after the original
Enterprise's famous "five year mission".  At the time of the first
Enterprise, four percent of the galaxy had been charted (note that
that's "charted", NOT "explored" or "visited".) 150 years later, the
Federation has charted nineteen percent of the galaxy. That's an
_astounding_ amount of space, folks, but still leaves plenty of
unknown territory.
     The Enterprise is about twice the size of the original
Enterprise;
 Gerrold says that they will be looking at only professionally
submitted scripts, i.e. get an agent and have her/him do all the
right things; _don't_ just mail it in. They are planning to film two
two-hour shows; the best will be the first, kick-off episode and the
other will be shown sometime during the season. They have contracted
for twenty-six hours of show.

"The redesign [of the Enterprise] has already been finalized and
those who have seen Probert's new design say we will probably love
it as much or more than the old versions. The ship itself is to be
much easier to use, with the semi-sentient computers handling most
of the chores previously handled by the crew. Gerrold said, 'If the
Captain orders the ship to, say, Warp 11, the ship might respond 'I
am not designed for that speed.' 'Do it anyway.' 'All right.'
Essentially this means a smart ship capable of a certain amount of
self-initiative; just how much remains to be seen. The improved
technology also means that the problems, and their solutions, will
devolve [sic] from the logic of the situation rather than because
this or that piece of machinery doesn't work."

"The new ship will have a mission length of 10 years instead of 5.
Because of this, the crew's families will be on board with them,
hence the larger ship to support them.

"The stories are all in the planning stages but a decision has been
made to try to avoid the baggage (Klingons, Romulans, etc.) of the
original series and movies to try to form new methods and cultures
to enrich what has gone before. Essentially they want to re-invent
Star Trek, to make it as fresh and innovative as it originally was
designed to be, while maintaining the essence, the hope for the
future which is Star Trek."


SEEKING THE FOLLOWING SERIES REGULARS:

CAPT. JULIAN PICARD -- A caucasian man in his 50's who is very
   youthful and in prime physical condition.  Born in Paris, his
   gallic accent appears only when deep emotions are triggered.  He
   is definitely a 'romantic' and believes strongly in concepts like
   honor and duty.  Capt. Picard commands the Enterprise.  He should
   have a mid-Atlantic accent, and a wonderfully rich speaking
   voice.

NUMBER ONE (AKA WILLIAM RYKER) -- A 30-35 year old caucasian born in
   Alaska.  He is a pleasant looking man with sex appeal, of medium
   height, very agile and strong, a natural psychologist.  Number
   one, as he is usually called, is second-in-command of the
   Enterprise and has a very strong, solid relationship with the
   Captain.

LT. COMMANDER DATA -- He is an android who has the appearance of a
   man in his mid 30's.  Data should have exotic features and can be
   anyone of the following racial groups: Asian, American Indian,
   East Indian, South American Indian or similar racial groups.  He
   is in perfect physical condition and should appear very
   intelligent.

LT. TANYA YAR -- 26 year old woman of Ukranian decent who serves
   as the starship's security chief.  She is described as having a
   new quality of conditioned-body-beauty, a fire in her eyes and
   muscularly well developed and very female body, but keeping in
   mind that much of her strength comes from attitude.  Macha has an
   almost obsessive devotion to protecting the ship and its crew and
   treats Capt. Picard and Number One as if they were saints.

LT. DEANNA TROI -- An alien woman who is tall (5'8" - 6') and
   slender, about 30 years old and quite beautiful.  She serves as
   the starship's Chief Psychologist.  Deanna is probably foreign
   (anywhere from Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian, Icelandic,
   etc.) with looks and accent to match.  She and Number One are
   romantically involved.  Her alien "look" is still to be
   determined.

WESLEY CRUSHER -- An appealing 15 year old caucasian boy (need small
   18 or almost 18 year old to play 15).  His remarkable mind and
   photographic memory make it seem not unlikely for him to become,
   at 15, a Starfleet acting-ensign.  Otherwise, he is a normal
   teenager.

BEVERLY CRUSHER -- Wesley's 35 year old mother.  She serves as the
   chief medical officer on the Enterprise.  If it were not for her
   intelligence, personality, beauty and the fact that she has a
   natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might not have
   agreed to her request that Wesley observe bridge activities;
   therefore letting her son's intelligence carry events further.

LT. GEORDI LaFORGE -- a 20-25 year old black man, blind from birth.
   With the help of a special prosthetic device he wears, his vision
   far surpasses anything the human eyes can see.  Although he is
   young, he is quite mature and is best friends with Data.  Please
   do not submit any 'street' types, as Geordi has perfect diction
   and might even have a Jamaican accent.  Should also be able to do
   comedy well.

The Enterprise is now NCC-1701D (not G or H), the fifth in the
series of starships by that number.  Episodes are about 45 minutes
(of actual story) long.  D.C. Fontana's title is Associate Producer.
Writers with episodes committed to include Gene, David, DC (she's
writing the kickoff), John DF Black, Bob Justman, Diane Duane, Lan
O'Kun.  A line producer (Robert Kewin) has been signed.  His past
experience includes James at 15(16) and Paper Chase, so he's no
slouch.  The rest of what David said I already knew, so rather than
repeat it, I'll assume you do too.

Speaking of which, D.C.'s title is Associate Producer and she's
writing the first episode which could be
   1) 2 hours long
   2) 90 min long with 30 min "making of STTNG"
   3) 60 min long with 60 min "making of STTNG"
   4) Just another 60 min episode

Other writers committed to are:
   Gene
   David (a horror story)
   John DF Black
   Bob Justman
   Diane Duane & (name escapes me)
   Lan O'Kun
   Arthur Sellers

  The decision has been made that in the first season, only
experienced TV writers will be used, leaving out several David had
promised a shot to, such as Howard Weinstein and Len Wein.

The art director is Herman Zimmerman.

Illustrators are Rick Sternbach and Andy Probert.

Costume Designer is Bill Theiss.

The original Alexander Courage theme will be used, plans are to
still split the infinitive, but to change the last line to: "...to
boldly go where no ONE has gone before"

And the biggest news, in the 24 1/2 or 25th (david says they haven't
decided yet) century, they've invented FUSES!  No more exploding
bridge panels (Unless like in real life, the chip blows to protect
the fuse :-))

Lastly there was some shots of the script Gerrold was writing/had
written which had the following dialog (thanks to stop action VCR):

       wait. Silence from the communications
       Troi finally shakes her head.

       TROI
     my thought was received.
(Bu)t there was no response.

       PICARD
No rejection?

       DATA
Captain, it may be the aliens do
not consider us as anything
      a nuisance

      PICARD
     haven't fired on us

      DATA

Here's most of what's been released about the behind-the-scenes
people at ST:The Next Generation.  You should recognize a lot of
names if you've been a fan for a while.

Exec. Prod - Gene Roddenberry
Supervising Prod. - Eddie Milkis
Producer - Bob Justman
Line Producer - Robert Kewin (credits include James at 15/16 and
   other good stuff)
Assoc. Prod. - D.C. Fontana
Something or other - David Gerrold (seriously, he doesn't have a
   title)
Art Director - Herman Zimmerman
Illustrators - Andy Probert and Rick Sternbach
Costumes - Bill Theiss

Scripts assigned
   D.C. Fontana (1st episode)
   Gene Roddenberry
   David Gerrold ('Blood and Fire')
   Diane Duane/Michael Reeves
   Arthur Sellers
   Lan O'Kun
   John DF Black
   Bob Justman

By the way, the Enterprise is 1701D (as in David, or D.C.) as of
Boskone.

The hispanic female security chief David mentioned at Boskone is now
Ukranian.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Apr 87 1213-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #157
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 87 1213-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #157
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 87 10:18:42 EDT
From: dee@CCA.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
To: KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re:  Boskone

> ...  In the sense that 1500+ people who want to attend will not be
>allowed to attend, SOME form of "discrimination" is needed.  I
>think the fairest way to do this is to let each person decide for
>himself how much attending Boskone is worth to him.
>
>Isn't this at least as fair as "discriminating" against people who
>have not attended three Boskones (I have attended two) and who have
>not purchased any art ...

>> [An auction] does not work very well due to problems with hotel
>> reservations, travel plans, and just plans in general.  It would
>> bias things towards those with lots of idle time who would not
>> care if they did not know what they were doing that weekend until
>> just a month or two before.

>True.  But so does the present system.

The present system provides relatively little bias in terms of the
lower pre-registration rate and that is justified in that it is much
easier and more efficient to spend known amounts of money in hand
and much harder and less efficient to spend unknown amounts of money
that may appear during a weekend.  Consider how few at the door
registrations there could have been if Boston had been hit by a
blizzard.

>It would be best if NESFA had a good idea just how many people
>would want to attend at each possible membership price.  They could
>then set the price to whatever 2000 people are willing to pay. ...

I admit that my initial response was too simplistic.  Actually I
have no personal problem with monetizing people's desires but there
are a lot of other factors involved.  Presumably there is an amount
of money that would make the Sheraton Boston happy to have a Boskone
like Boskone 24 every weekend.  Presumably there is an amount of
money that would make most of the people who did the work to put on
Boskone 24 happy to do it again, even if they thought that most of
the attendees being attracted were *ss h*l*s.  But it's pretty hard
to figure out how to simultaneously optimise over the amount
different people are willing to pay to attend Boskone and the
radically different costs imposed on Boskone and the hotel by
different attendees.  Clearly the effect of the policies being
adopted, including the categories of prefered attendees, are fairly
crude but there are also costs associated with yet more complex
policies for less crude discrimination or for research to determine
with greater precision what the effect of various policies will be.

Many people consider the quality of Boskones art show to be a major
feature.  Currently this is more or less self polcing as Boskone
charges a fixed price for display area and no percentage fee.  Thus
those whose art sells for high prices have an economic incentive to
return and those whose art doesn't lose money.  With a more than
factor of 2 reduction in attendence coming up, biasing attendence
towards those interested in purchasing art seems like a reasonable
way to keep up the quality of the show for the benefit of all
attendees.

I think that it is the belief of most voting NESFA members that just
auctioning off Boskone membership slots would result in a smaller
scale disaster but a disaster none-the-less while the policies
adopted have a good chance of producing, in their opinion, a much
better and more enjoyable convention.  (Presumably many of those
discriminated against will be of the contrary opinion.)

>Is it certain that Boskone must be made smaller?  What about
>multiple adjacent small hotels, or a cruise ship, or an outdoor
>con?  (If held outdoors, it should be moved from February, of
>course.)

It must be made smaller if it is to be the type of convention that
NESFA has voted that it wants to put on.

>>> I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not offering
>>> to help out.
>> I don't know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not
>> so inclined.  Most people who work on the convention do so
>> because they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than
>> because of some feeling of guilt.
>I do not feel guilty.  I do feel unwelcome.  I am now told I am not

Glad to hear that you misstated yourself and are not being made to
feel guilty.

>allowed to attend the next con for any amount of money because I
>did

Hold on, as I have mentioned several times, you can buy a Boskone 25
membership (and membership in all future Boskones put on by NESFA)
right now by buying a Boskone Life Membership for $360.  This is 20
times the most recent preregistration rate ($18).  Even though
pre-registrations are not being accepted, Life Memberships still
are.  As soon as the new preregistration rate, no doubt considerably
higher, is approved, the Life Membership rate will automatically
jump to 20 times that unless NESFA votes some further change in its
rules.

>NOT help out at the last one.  It was never my understanding that I
>was supposed to.  If someone enjoys it, more power to them, but I
>enjoy panel sessions, buying books, and conversation.  That is what
>I paid for and that is what I got.  ...

It is indeed the case that many of those who attended Boskone 24 are
unwelcome at future Boskones.  But you sound like the sort of person
that is desired.  On the hand, most of the attendees of Boskone 24
are probably of the type that NESFA would like back, but most of
them is too many to fit at what we are likely to get as facilities.
It was recognized that these policies would eliminate many
desireable people.

If you are willing to do so, I suggest you try to find someone in
the preferred categories who knows you personally and see if they
can get you in.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 18:44:03 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

ANY solution to Boskone's problem is unfair.  Based on purely
anecdotal (1st person anecdotal, ie. I saw it) evidence, at the cons
I have run or been involved with, much more of the trouble with the
hotel of the kind cited above is caused by younger "fans" who use
the con as an excuse to "go crazy".  I AGREE that this is a minority
of the younger fans, and that there are people well above the age of
18 who take advantage of the con situation as well.

Still, what do you do?  The con committee has very limited resource
(read: people) to patrol halls at night and prevent the vandalism
and rowdyness that does take place at con hotels (August Party's
checkbook balance proves it).  I was one of those who made the point
on the net BEFORE Boskone had to half its attendence that they were
not attacking the problem of vandalism and rowdyness directly (and
got roundly flamed for it)

My personal preference (and one that has worked in the past to lower
convention sizes successfully) is to simply limit the number of
memberships sold.  First come, first served. Not only Balticon
(which was well over 3500 when they limited to 2000), but the old
New York Star Trek conventions, which cut back from almost 15000 to
6000 in one year.

Of course, in the Michael J. Fox generation, ability to pay seems to
be popular on the net (kind-of-a-:-))

The conclusion is...nobody will like it no matter what Boskone does.
Sorry Don, I think you're fighting a losing battle here, but do keep
us informed.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 19:51:51 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu (Royal White)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>My personal preference (and one that has worked in the past to
>lower convention sizes successfully) is to simply limit the number
>of memberships sold.  First come, first served. Not only Balticon
>(which was well over 3500 when they limited to 2000), but the old
>New York Star Trek conventions, which cut back from almost 15000 to

I guess its time to restate my original opinion, now that it seems
that Balticon is a good example of a *LARGE* con cutting its
membership and not a small con of 2500 (as someone mentioned)
reducing to 2000.  The only fair thing to do is what Balticon did:
limit memberships to a maximum and keep it first come first served.
This action will only discriminate against procrastinators.

seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 07:59:14 -0800
From: obrien@aero2.aero.org
Subject: Boskone Redux

   What I don't understand is why all these people are screaming
about Boskone as if it were the only con in the world.  I've been to
Boskone and I've been to A LOT of other conventions, and believe me
many other cons are more fun.  Personal taste, of course, but I know
I'm not alone in this opinion.  Paradoxically, forcibly shrinking
Boskone may make it more fun for those able (read: allowed) to
attend, and I'm sure this was in the backs of people's minds when
the restrictions were instituted.  It should be noted, though, that
there are scads and scads of other cons, including some even larger
than (recent) Boskone, and I suggest people look closely at them.
   Those willing to "save up for months to go to Boskone" if
memberships were auctioned off (I smell Ayn Rand in the background)
should perhaps save up and go to a con in another city.  Do
something different for a change!  You might even find a con
committee you like better.

Mike O'Brien
obrien@aerospace.aero.org
{trwrb,sdcrdcf}!aero!obrien

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 02:24:41 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Boskone Redux

Hmm, this may eventually get back to my attempt to get people to
post about what they liked about a con...

Seriously, I think there are good reasons for the attraction to
Boskone.  Some of them will remain for the next few, but some may
disappear.  Here are some of the things I've found attractive about
Boskone which make it my one "sure to fly cross country for" con a
year (and yes, I've been and go to cons in many different cities as
well).

1) Continuity and excellent organization: Boskone is one of the
*very* few cons that you can depend on being consistently well
organized.  It's hard to explain with examples what this means;
it's a lot more obvious when the con is erratic or badly organized.
Some of the obvious points are the availability of a t-shirt with
art by the Artist GOH every year, a book of mostly unavailable
material by the Writer GOH published by NESFA and available for
sale, panels that start on time, etc. If you go to a badly organized
con, it'll affect you in some manner. I doubt many people who
haven't worked/organized a con realize just how well Boskone is
organized. But most people who do organize/work realize this; as an
example, note that with the exception of a New York bid that dropped
out early (and wasn't taken that seriously by many people), Boston
had no competition for the right to hold the 1989 Worldcon. Other
years in the East Coast rotation have been having 3 or more cities
bidding for it. But no one wanted to bid against Boston.

Boskone also manages to maintain an identity. Despite changes in
personnel in areas, and changes made in emphasis and new ideas,
there are few things that Boskone doesn't manage to have a sense of
continuity about. Some cons vary so radically that you're never
quite sure just what they'll be like from year to year; it depends
very heavily on who's running what area.

2) Due to the above organizational skills, and its relative nearness
to the New York publishing industry, Boskone has traditionally
attracted large numbers of editors and publishers. Having these
people there causes writers and artists who might not otherwise show
up to show up and do some business over the weekend. And having lots
of writers and artists showing up consistantly attracts people.

3) The number and variety of open parties has been increasing over
the years. I don't think there's another con in the country that has
had the type of parties that Boxboro Fandom has thrown over the
years.  Themes, good food, good organization, 1500 bodies in a hotel
room :-).  RPI has been throwing a chocolate party the last few
years. Etc.

4) Attention to "special features". While some of these are found at
other cons, I don't know of any other than Boskone which have all of
these, or even as many. The silent movie with organ accompaniment.
Punday. Trivia Bowl. A 2 issue a day newsletter. Discussion groups.
A room for gophers with munchies and soda. Continuous pro readings.
Etc.

5) Boskone's got Boston.  It's been held downtown, and has been very
easy to get to by mass transit. MIT's across the river. There are
restaurants of every kind within easy access. There are large
numbers of technically oriented people in the metro area.  This can
make things more interesting. Boston's also filled with other things
to see and do before and after the con.

6) Boskone is held roughly midway between two year's Worldcon. It's
gotten the rep as the "Winter Worldcon". I've *known* that I'll see
just about all my East Coast fan friends there. Couldn't say that
about any other con.

So, Mike, what are the other cons you've been to that were more fun
for you, and why were they that for you. And out of curiosity, other
than Worldcons, what cons were you thinking of that were larger than
recent Boskones?

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87  9:29:48 EDT
From: "Daniel P. Dern" <ddern@ccb.bbn.com>
Subject: Cons, nets, and the limits to growth

I've been following the "How big is a Boskone" debate, and would
like to offer a few generic comments.

Over the years, I've been sporadically involved in a variety of
group events -- mostly as an attendee, mind you -- from household
dinners to folk festivals to sf conventions.  And, in the past few
years, network mailing lists and discussion groups.

And, over the years, many of these have tended to grow bigger.  You
get more "alumni" plus a stream of new folk.  In the process,
several things often happen:

  It gets to be more hassle and less fun for the organizers.  You
  need more of them.  More burn out.  You need more and new skills.
  You have bigger worries, like serious money management, facilities
  planning, etc.

  The tenor of the event changes for attendees.  You get lost in the
  crowd.  It becomes a bigger, less personal event.  You don't get
  to everything.  Facilities often become overstrained -- food,
  water and bathrooms at folk festivals are a good example.

  Events which originally were for the "in" crowd become
  "discovered" by "mundanes."  I see the Folk Song Society of
  Greater Boston struggle with this identity crisis periodically.

Additionally:

  You get trapped by tradition.  "Let's do this again -- I always
  liked [event or activity X]."

  Things get more expensive.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't see NEFSA as "bad guys" here --
nor the attendees.  The world has changed, and we gotta face the
inevitable.  The number of people who want to play has gotten too
big.  This changes the event.  And we've outgrown the facilities.

One of the first sf conventions I attended was Boskone '69.  There
were between 300-400 people, total.  Everyone could fit into one
(medium large) room.  One of the last cons I went to (some years
back) was clearly ten+ times this size.  (Boskone/WorldCon, I
suspect.)  Fun, but a crowded madhouse.

Folks, we're not gonna please everybody here.  Heck, look at the
changes the ARPA/usenet groups have had to go through in the past
year or so, to accomodate increased #s of participants.  I just hope
NESFA (and all other organizers, of SF cons, of folk festivals,
newsgroup moderators, magazine editors, et cetera) find a way to not
burn out, continue having fun, and find acceptable
compromises/changes as the only viable alternative to stopping the
show altogether.  And in any case -- three cheers and a huzzah for
all efforts to date!

Daniel Dern
ddern@ccb.bbn.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Apr 87 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #158
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Apr 87 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #158
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:

           Books - Brunner & Dickinson & Gibson & Hesse &
                   Summers & Humorous SF (2 msgs) &
                   Playing Fair in Novels &
                   The King in Yellow (4 msgs) & 
                   A Story Request & Japanese Books & 
                   April Fool Hoax

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 87 16:10:07 EST
From: <kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: John Brunner

A while ago someone posted a request for a Brunner Bibliography.
Has anything come of that?  I found most of what I read by him (not
much yet) to be very good, but I'm not sure I want to commit myself
to many more books the length of _Stand on Zanzibar_ without any
sort of preview.  So I guess I'll just start my own Annotated
bibliography.  Here goes:

  TITLE            RATING(1-10)    COMMENTS
Stand On Zanzibar    8 or 9      Very powerful; good at complex
                                   picture of complex society
Shockwave Rider      9           All the intensity of the above,
                                   shorter; compare with Rand
The Sheep Look Up    9 1/2       One of my all-time favorites, but
                                   then again I do have an
                                   environmentalist bias; don't read
                                   this if surrounded by smokers in a
                                   Las Vegas Airport.
Squares of the City     4        Not as intense, or very believable

   What Brunner is best at, apparently, is the development of a
complex and fast moving (and very screwed up society).  In this he
reminds me (particularly in _Shockwave Rider_) of Gibson, and some
of the ideas of the much discussed cyberpunk "movement".  Brunner's
world is a good picture of society as a form of mass insanity.
  If anyone else can add to my list above, please post it, or e-mail
to me...  if there is interest I will post a compiled list at some
later date.

Karl DeBisschop
kdebiss@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Apr 87 12:53:20-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: The Flight of Dragons

It seems that this book by Peter Dickinson is no longer in print
(although it appears in the 1986 Books in Print Supplement). Just
thought I'd pass this on to anyone else who might be searching for
it after reading the discussions about it on this digest. I suggest
checking used book stores.  By the way, this book was only published
in hardback, and I think Harper & Row (at least I think that's what
"Har-Row" means) published it in 1979.

Haruka Takano
Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 09:38:57 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Blued Moon

kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP (Kevin Maroney) writes:
>the humanists focus not primarily on rigorous speculation or glitzy
>high-tech but rather on the humans being affected by the
>speculation.

Are you saying that _Neuromancer_ was about glitzy high-tech and
*not* about the humans being affected by the speculation?
  I believe that the book is *primarily* about the people and the
effects on them of the tech. The glitzy backdrop is secondary. This
also reflects on the book's merit -- it deals effectively with more
then one issue at one time.
  Gibson himself said that _Neuromancer_ is a book about people and
about the multitude of ways they can screw up (their lives).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 87 15:28:41 EST
From: <kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Magic Shop Stories

This is not quite a magic shop, but similar enough to merit mention.
In _Steppenwolf_ by Herman Hesse there is a jazz club whish appears
I think twice in the novel in a fashion similar to the magic shops
of Ellison and others.  The basic idea is that the "hero" stumbles
on this place, goes inside and this somehow changes his life.  The
he leaves, and tries to find it again, but it's not there.  I
believe that he somehow stumbles across the club again, but it's
been a while, and I've forrgotten most of the details.  It's not a
great book, but it's good, and reads quick.

Karl DeBisschop
kdebiss@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 05:49:49 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Witchcraft writers

doug@edge.UUCP (Doug Pardee) writes:
> [If you think that the word "witch" only refers to a mythical
> woman who turns people into toads in fairy tales, I recommend a
> book called "Witchcraft" by a fellow name of Hoyt (sorry, don't
> remember his first name).  It's published by the University of
> Illinois Press.  Virtually all writings on the subject are
> extremely biased; this one seems to be the most even-handed.
> Which isn't to say that it *is* even-handed, just less biased than
> most.]

I wonder how much consideration you have given to the great scholar
of the supernatural and someone who probably was "crazy as a
bedbug"...  the Reverand Montague Summers.  His books on the
supernatural are the best sources I have ever found.  The story on
Montague Summers, as I have heard it, is that he was a Catholic
priest who decided that the supernatural was real and that when the
Church came to its senses and went back to hunting witches, it would
need the best information possible, unimpeachable knowledge, on
witchcraft.  He then went around collecting folktales, lore, fact,
anything he could on the subject of witchcraft and started putting
it into books so the knowledge would not be lost.  The books he
wrote are the real thing.  He wrote with all the exciting style of a
law book and all the literary license that one would find in the
average medical textbook.  He was writing books with authority that
he hoped Holy Mother Church would accept without embarrassment.  And
he didn't stop with witches.  Among his better books are THE
VAMPIRE: HIS KITH AND KIN, THE VAMPIRE IN EUROPE, and THE WEREWOLF.
Don't get me wrong.  I haven't read all his books.  I have only read
a few pages of his books at a given stretch.  They were not written
to be entertaining, they were written to be compendia of knowledge
on his subject.  Some are more readable than others, but when he
tells you how Greek folklore tells you to kill a vampire, you can
believe that Greek folklore tells you you can kill a vampire that
way.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1987 13:47 EDT
From: bruce <BRUCE%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: humorous s-f

While I've read most of the books mentioned thus far, my favorite
humorous sf has not been included: the Illuminati series by Wilson
and Shea.  It's a trilogy, altogether over a thousand pages, and
every page has situations and conversations I laugh at every time I
read them.  The book is a great satire of the paranoid news/beliefs
common today, as well as being a weird and pointed commentary on
popular philosophies.  It challenges the reader's accepted
prejudices and even laughs at its own.  The end may not be
particularly satisfying to everyone, but getting there makes it
worth the trouble.

I'll probably be flamed for the commentary above, as some of my
friends have not found it as hilarious as I have.  Read it with an
open mind (and a few beers already quaffed), and just have fun.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 23:39:36 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Funny SF

Here's some I haven't seen mentioned yet:

1) The Kuttner/Moore (as Lewis Padget) stories of Galloway Galgher,
   a brilliant inventor - when he's drunk.  These are collected in
   _Robots Have No Tails_.  Good stuff.

2) Avaram Davidson's Dr. Ezsterhazy (doubtless sp) stories.  These
   are set in the mythical 3rd largest empire in Europe in the late
   1900's.  It's not quite like our past.  There have been some of
   the early ones collected in book form (_The Enquires of Dr.
   Ezsterhazy_) which I haven't yet read.  The ones I know of were
   published in Amazing in the last year or two.  I remember two
   that almost had me on the floor.

3) Quite a lot of stuff by Eric Frank Russell.  His hugo story
   Allagamoosa (sp?) for example, or _The Space Willies_.

4) R. A. Lafferty.  Some of his stories are sidesplitting.
   (Some are chilling too - to say that Lafferty is unique
   is probably not necessary,  you'll realize that by the second
   sentence).

5) _Pandora's Planet_ by Christoper Anvil.  The best by an author
   who's been around a long while, but has never made the big time.
   Guess what the planet is?

6) Harry Harrison's _Starsmashers of the Galaxy Rangers_.  This is
   the ultimate parody of the E. E Smith type space opera.
   Also, _The Technicolor Time Machine_ in which a film crew
   hopes to get cheap epic footage by filming the Viking discovery
   of America.

7) Spider Robinson's "Half an Oaf", in an Analog Annual ten or
   so years ago.  No puns, but it doesn't need them.

8) Alexi Panshin's Anthony Villers series (hopefully to be completed
   some day...).

9) "And He Built a Crooked House" by Heinlein.  Architecture meets
    geometry.

Enjoy

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 22:55:13 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: River and ring worlds (playing fair)

The recent postings about Farmer's Riverworld brought to mind a pet
peeve I had about those books, and with Niven's _Ringworld
Engineers_.  In both cases, we learn that a lot of what we were
toldin the first books is false.  What made that especially annoying
in both of these cases, was that I had the distinct impression that
both Farmer and Niven beleived the initial information when the
first books were written and later changed their minds.  Anyone else
feel this way?  It ruined _Ringworld Engineers_ for me and I lost
all interest in the Riverworld series.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 10:47:35 PDT (Friday)
Subject: The King In Yellow (Story Request)
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
Cc: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM, haste#@andrew.cmu.EDU,
Cc:  reed!soren@rutgers.EDU, stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU

> Yes!  The story is by James Blish.  I believe it appears in a
> collection of fantasy stories entitled "Alchemy and Academe",
> edited (I think) by Anne McCaffrey and someone else.
>
>I can confirm that the Blish story appears in "Alchemy and Academe".

Looks like the name of the story slipped through the cracks:

"More Light" by James Blish.

This story intrigued me.  Because of it, I sought out "The King In
Yellow" and read it, and was disappointed.  Chambers pales before
Lovecraft and Watson.

Perry Caro
caro.osbunorth@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 02:48:28 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart20.BERKELEY.EDU (Class Account)
Subject: Re: Story Request

The story about the unreadable play "The King In Yellow" is in Anne
McCaffery's _Alchemy and Academie_.  If you find out about the
Mythos names in Marion Zimmer Bradley's works (also in Paul Edwin
Zimmer's--I think he's her brother) I'd love to hear the
explanation.  It's puzzled me for years.

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 23:04:56 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi@rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: The King In Yellow (Story Request)

Perry_A._Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM writes:
>This story intrigued me.  Because of it, I sought out "The King In
>Yellow" and read it, and was disappointed.  Chambers pales before
>Lovecraft and Watson.

MOSTLY I agree with you. However, a few of the stories in "The King
In Yellow" are classic horror pieces, I think. Most especially "The
Yellow Sign," which is subtly nasty in a very Lovecraftian way.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 87 13:52:10 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Carcosa, etc
To: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU

From: stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg)
> This makes at least five authors who have used the King in Yellow
> or Hali/Carcosa in some form or another.

The Illuminatus Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea
mentions them, in the context of the "Cult of the Yellow Sign",
which is said at one point to be the secret society behind the
Bavarian Illuminati.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Apr 87 08:46:09-EST
From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
Subject: Funny juvenile story request

   The story is funny, not the request...

   Anyway, I remember a story called "Sam (somebody) on the Planet
Framingham(?)".  I'd like to know the author's name so I could get a
copy to 1) reread and see if it is still funny and 2) if so, give it
to my son to get him off the Atari for five minutes.

   I remember this story as being wildly silly, sort of a juvenile
Hitchhiker's Guide type story.  Anyone else remember this one?

Scorp

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 07:07:57 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Japanimation items sought.

tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes:
> While in Japan, I bought numbers 1 and 2 of AKIRA, published by
> Young.  These thick (2-3 cm) softcover books seem to be
> compiltions of a monthly feature in some other Young publication,
> and come out every few years.  I would really like to get number 3
> when it comes out, but I don't know if it is available in the US
> at all.  Anybody have any ideas?

   Well, one place that might carry softcover comic books (yes, they
don't look at all like U.S. comic books do they ?!) would be stores
catering to Japanese nationals living in the U.S.  Such stores would
include Japanese food shops or bookstores.  I remember that while
living in San Francisco, there was a large Japanese area in downtown
San Francisco where there were a lot of Japanese food stores and
huge bookstores.  They carried a lot (I mean *a* *lot*) of Japanese
comic books there.
   I don't know about Portland but if you're in a city with a large
Japanese population, there's bound to be some shops catering to them
(and perhaps even a small "Japantown").  Check those shops out and
you might find what you're looking for, and maybe other things worth
looking at as well!

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone:  (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)|
UUCP:   {seismo!bpa, ihnp4!bpa, rutgers!liberty}!swatsun!hirai

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 02:58:58 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@rutgers.edu
Subject: APRIL FOOL! Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by Fred
Subject: Saberhagen

leonard@percival.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>You might just try checking your facts before posting such
>accusations to the net.
>
>I'm not sure when Saberhagen started writing the stories but I was
>reading them as early as the late 60's! They *far* predate
>Battlestar Galactica.

I have truly enjoyed the volumes of mail and posted news that I have
received concerning my Berserker hoax.

Particularly amusing have been the postings that read "check the
dates, check the dates!"

Well folks, it's excellent advice.  But before you give it to the
net, take it yourself.  The date of the posted article was April 1,
1987.

I thought I would post this little note so that people would stop
putting replies on the net.  The point -- that people are amazingly
adept and not thinking before they post -- has been enjoyably made.
I won't list the names of those who had the wisdom to "correct" me
by mail.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Apr 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #159
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Apr 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #159
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:

           Films - Japanimation & Film Request (2 msgs) &
                   Battlefield Earth & Another Request &
                   Good SF Movies (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 18:10:43 GMT
From: ritcv!sds5044@rutgers.edu (Steven D. Smith)
Subject: Some Japanimation Questions.

Here are some questions:

1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ?

2. Does anybody know about the GEMMA WARS video?

3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now.

Steven D. Smith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 20:35:53 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Killer "Computer" Movie Spoiler (was Re: Miscellaneous
Subject: Mumblings)

jtn@potomac.UUCP (John T. Nelson) writes:
> Perhaps someone out there can help ME with a movie that I recall
> seeing on television in my childhood.  It was previous to 1968
> (arprox 1966) and none of my friends who are movie and SF buffs
> are able to identify it.  Are you up to a challenge?  Can you
> identify THIS movie from my rather sketchy and obtuse description?
>
> The film featured a giant super-duper computer called "The
> Unitron."  The name alone dates the film.  After its activation,
> people are found dead.  MURDERED!  But by whom (or what?).  I
> distinctly recall the image of one dead person found underneath a
> door with the pneumatically controlled door still banging up and
> down on top of him (or her).  Pretty grisly huh?
>
> At the end of the movie the scientists gathered around the main
> console of the Unitron (with Irwin Allen blinky lights in the
> background) for the final whodoneit scene.  One of the scientists
> announces that he knows who the murderer is and it ISN'T the
> machine.  Better yet the machine knows and will now tell us all,
> and the typewriter style console prints out the name of the
> scientist that did the dirty work.
>
> That's it.  Can YOU name this movie?

Could it possibly be "Paper Man"?  This movie was essentially a
murder mystery that used the computer as a plot gimmick; no real SF.

Plot goes something like this: programmers decide to defraud a
company by creating an "employee" who exists only on paper, so that
they can collect the bogus paychecks.  The scam goes fine, until one
of the programmers is killed.  Evidence points to their paper
creation as the killer.  The computer on which the "paper man"
exists controls all the local electronics: doors, lights, telephone,
etc.  Others die; one, possibly the pneumatic door victim you
recall, is killed after running for the elevator out of the
basement.  As she (I think) runs down this long hall toward the
elevator (we're looking toward the elevator, so she's running away
from us), the corridor lights behind her blink out, one by one,
until there's this little square of light at the end of the hall,
where she's pounding on the door.

In the end, the killer is revealed to be, not the machine, but some
escaped murderer who saw the paper employee's identity as a perfect
new identity for himself.

I remember being scared by the body of the film and let down by the
ending.

Is this it?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 01:58:59 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!potomac!jtn@RUTGERS.EDU (John T. Nelson)
Subject: Re: Killer "Computer" Movie Spoiler (was Re: Miscellaneous
Subject: Mumblings)

cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes:
> jtn@potomac.UUCP (John T. Nelson) writes:
>> Perhaps someone out there can help ME with a movie that I recall
>> seeing on television in my childhood.  It was previous to 1968
>> (arprox 1966) and none of my friends who are movie and SF buffs
>> are able to identify it.  Are you up to a challenge?  Can you
>> identify THIS movie from my rather sketchy and obtuse
>> description?
>
> Could it possibly be "Paper Man"?  This movie was essentially a
> murder mystery that used the computer as a plot gimmick; no real
> SF.

I think the Paper Man was made somewhat after 1968 wasn't it?  At
any rate I don't think this is it.  The movie I'm thinking of
pictured the computer and the people who worked with it as research
scientist types with lab coats.  The whole bit.  KInd of like "Time
Tunnel" goes murder mystery.

One of my friends DID mention Paper Man as a possibility but the
imagery of Paper Man doesn't seem right.  You never saw HOW the
person got killed.... only that the body was under the pnuematic
door.  A very vivid image.  Not frightening... but powerful as I
recall.

Good try though!

John T. Nelson
Advanced Decision Systems
1500 Wilson Blvd #600; Arlington, VA 22209-2401
(703) 243-1611
UUCP: seismo!{sundc,doqlci}!potomac!jtn
Internet:  jtn@ads.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 01:38:19 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!davison@rutgers.edu (Wayne Davison)
Subject: Battlefield Earth: the movie (Was: L. Ron Hubbard)

The recent discussion of _Battlefield Earth_ brings a question to my
mind.  Whatever happened to the BfE movie that was promised on the
softcover edition?  It has been at least two years hasn't it?  And
still no movie!  Has the concept been canned?  Put on hold?  Anyone
know what's going on?

Wayne Davison
...!ihnp4!amdahl!drivax!davison

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87  12:39:50 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: anybody remember this one?

I was just thinking about all the old sf movies I used to watch on
TV way back in grammar school. One of them stuck out but I cannot
recall its name. The basic plot is set in Earth's future with a
spaceship about to be launched from a space station. The crew is a
family, mother & father, brother & sister. The ship is supposed to
travel close to the speed of light. While the ship will travel in
space for 1 year, 16 years or so will pass by on Earth. The family
leaves their dog behind with some official person, and depart. Their
journey involves various things including being trapped near a star
that burns out their engines, but repairs are managed in time. the
end of the show sees the ship plunging into a rotating black hole
and emerging in another universe. Does anyone else remember this
movie, its name or when it was made?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 15:02:20 GMT
From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!chinet!megabyte@rutgers.edu (Mark E.
From: Sunderlin)
Subject: *GOOD* SF Movies

We all know that some of the worst filmmaking ever done has been
done in the name of "Science Fiction".  Plan Nine from Outer Space
is an example.

But, what are the well done intelligent SF movies?  As a start, I
consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year to
be quality SF movie.  If you haven't seen it, DO SO.  It is the most
intelligently done SF movie I have seen in years.  It has humor,
drama, and give you much to think ans speculate about at the end.
SEE IT.

What other SF movies are there?

Mark E. Sunderlin
(202) 634-2529
UUCP:   seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder
        ihnp4!chinet!megabyte
Mail:   IRS  PM:PFR:D:NO
        1111 Constitution Ave. NW
        Washington,DC 20224

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 03:23:17 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes:
>We all know that some of the worst filmmaking ever done has been
>done in the name of "Science Fiction".  Plan Nine from Outer Space
>is an example.
>
>But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?  As a start, I
>consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year to
>be quality SF movie.  If you haven't seen it, DO SO.  It is the
>most intellegently done SF movie I have seen in years.  It has
>humor, drama, and give you much to think ans speculate about at the
>end.  SEE IT.
>
>What other SF movies are there?

The Quiet Earth WAS well done, I was just upset that the major
points of plot had to be so ridiculous.  As for other SF movies, two
of my favorites are:

Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it
   predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see.

Blade Runner, with Harrison Ford: just because it's popular doesn't
   mean it's not good!  Some of the best cinematography I've seen in
   an SF film.  Especially the scene with where Zora is retired.
   Based on the awesome book, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
   by the late, great Philip K. Dick.

The Kubrick film of A Clockwork Orange probably belongs on a list
like this too, though I wasn't that crazy about it.  Malcolm
McDowell was great in it.  Also, I saw Logan's Run for the first
time recently, on video tape, and while I suspect people who saw it
when it came out ['76?] might disagree, I'd say that it was almost
one heck of a movie.

I think that one of the problems with SF movies has been that they
frequently do fantastic jobs of one or two aspects, then screw up
some or all of the rest.  For instance, Dune had the most fantastic
visuals, but was otherwise the worst movie ever filmed [including
home movies, movies taken with the lenscap on, etc.].  And Star Wars
was the ultimate SF fairy tale, but didn't exactly provoke thought
beyond "'Let the wookie win!'  Ha, heh, heh, hee, ho."  Hey, while
I'm on the subject, anyone want to start a list of SF quotes?  You
know, the kind that instantly make everyone around you smile, like
the one above, or "He's dead, Jim."  I love quotes [oops, quotations
- so fry me].

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 03:55:50 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

> We all know that some of the worst filmmaking ever done has been
> done in the name of "Science Fiction".  Plan Nine from Outer Space
> is an example.
>
> But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?  As a start, I
> consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year
> to be quality SF movie.  If you haven't seen it, DO SO.  It is the
> most intellegently done SF movie I have seen in years.  It has
> humor, drama, and give you much to think ans speculate about at
> the end.  SEE IT.

For what it's worth, I heartily second _The Quiet Earth_.  It is out
on video, and we rented it as such a while back.  Some of the more
obnoxious members of my family, who despise SF, and like fast action
(ala cop shows) watched the first 10 minutes and whined to the point
that I stopped, rewound, and watched theirs.  They left, and I
watched it twice.

A quiet, very subtle movie...it at first seems as if it could be a
loser, but it ISN'T...and yes, it does provoke just a BIT of
thought! 8-)

As for a few others, some already mentioned, that I recall as pretty
good:

   Soylent Green (of course)
   Silent Running
   Rollerball
   (don't want to get this too long, and I'm out of ideas
   for good ones just this second....)

BAD ones:
   Damnation Alley (we went over this already)
   Killdozer (Read the story by Sturgeon- it's pretty good,
      but the movie stank)

   Spaceship
   Space Hunter
   Ice Pirates
   (and like that)

Incidentally, though I'm not real up on my sat. morning cartoons,
anyone seen the new "Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers"?  I KNOW what
it sounds like- some kiddie krap that rips SF for the hell of it,
but it is actually pretty good!  It has plot, action, causes some
thinking, is well-executed...  and best of all...  IT AIN'T ANOTHER
CARTOON RAMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eric C.
ucdavis!deneb!ccs006

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 13:31:13 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@rutgers.edu (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
>Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it
>   predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see.

It doesn't predate 2001, and I think you overstate a bit, but also
one of my favorites.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 23:41:42 GMT
From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@RUTGERS.EDU (Vince Murphy [Alien])
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
>Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it
>   predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see.

   I think Silent Running was made after 2001.  Douglas Trumball was
the major force behind the movie, though.  I liked it.  Any movie
with Joan Baez on the soundtrack is good enough for me.

   I would also add "The Man Who Fell to Earth" as another excellent
science-fiction movie.  David Bowie is great in it.

Vincent J. Murphy
University Of New Mexico
hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 21:19:58 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

megabyte@chinet.UUCP (Mark E. Sunderlin) writes:
> But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?  As a start, I
> consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year
> to be quality

I believe it's actually from New Zealand.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 15:25:58 GMT
From: faknabe@phoenix.princeton.edu (Frederick Albert Knabe)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

One of the very best science fiction films I have ever seen (in
fact, the best) is "Brazil." I couldn't believe that "Back to the
Future," which is just fluff, beat it out for the Hugo last year. It
just goes to show what people consider "good," I suppose. I'm
surprised "Brazil" hasn't already been suggested as a good SF movie;
it's not that old (not even 2 years yet).

I'm not going to go into why "Brazil" is good; Harlan Ellison has
had plenty to say about that in Fantasy and Science Fiction.

Fritz Knabe
{allegra|ihpn4}!{princton|psuvax1!pucc.bitnet}!phoenix!faknabe

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 16:01:12 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

   The first thing that comes to mind when I think of *good* SF
movies is 2001: a Space Oddessy.  Next up would be a toss up between
*The Day the Earth Stood Still*, *The Andromede Strain* (I know that
it was poorly made, but the story is terrific.), and 2010 (I don't
like 'The Year We Make Contact'.  I prefer Clarke's original
'Oddessy II'.)  Honorable mention goes to John Dykstra's *Silent
Running*.

   This just hit me.  I've completely forgotten about *Aliens*.  I
would place it in the top five.

cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 21:27:51 GMT
From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@RUTGERS.EDU (Vince Murphy [Alien])
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

cs2633ba@izar.UUCP writes:
>the Earth Stood Still*, *The Andromede Strain* (I know that it was
>poorly made, but the story is terrific.), and 2010 (I don't like
>'The Year We Make Contact'.  I prefer Clarke's original 'Oddessy
>II'.)  Honorable mention goes to John Dykstra's *Silent Running*.

     That should be Douglas Trumball, the effects master of 2001.

Vincent J. Murphy
University Of New Mexico
hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 23:04:57 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.arpa (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

For pretty good ones, how about:

   Brazil
   Charley
   The "Mad Max Trilogy"
   THX whatever it was
   Fahrenheit 451
   Testament
   Sleeper
   Zelig
   The Last Wave

OK,OK, so they aren't all hardware, but there's more to SF than
hardware.

Valerie Maslak

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Apr 87 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #160
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Apr 87 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #160
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 160

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15-Apr-1987 1632
From: roberts%utrtsc.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Nigel Roberts, Utrecht,
From: Holland)
Subject: Conventional restrictions

Becky Slocome writes eloquently on the discriminatory ban of
under-18s.  She convinces me.

Excuse me.  I'm twenty-nine. I've been to but one convention before
in my life. I've been a skiffy fan for about twenty years. I've done
some writing.

Despite the fact that I'm serious about SF, I'd be excluded from
Boskone. I'm offended by that. I'm more offended that teenagers are
discriminated in such a way. The convention organisers have never
hear of the concept of valuing differences, that's clear.

Teenagers may cause problems. They may even cause _more_ problems
per capita than the wrinklies. [I'm sorry to say that, but it's just
one of those things.] People do behave irresponsibly if they are
brought up in surroundings where they are not trusted to behave
responsibly.

It has been a dream of mine that one day I'd go to one the big
American conventions (lke Boskone) and meet people whose work I'd
admired over the years. It looks like I don't have to bother.

At this moment I have a great deal of understanding for Mike
Moorcock who is "well know for his dislike of the social side of
SF".

Have a good Eastertide

Nigel

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 16:43:14 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george@rutgers.edu (Geo. R. Greene,
From: Jr.)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

This is basically a retraction.

I originally expressed an opinion that NESFA was not trying hard
enough to accommodate all the people entitled to attend Boskone.

Don Westlake has basically refuted that.

I guess there is no real way to give a litmus test of people's
interest level in SF before determining whether they should be
allowed to buy in.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 02:45:26 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.arpa (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Conventional restrictions

Sigh. Another msg where someone states that they're offended because
despite their being "serious about sf", they aren't being allowed to
attend next year's Boskone. What's particularly strange about many
of these is that the person follows the seriousness statement with a
comment about their never having attended a Boskone yet. (side note;
while this is in response to a msg from someone in the Netherlands,
I sympathize a bit more with someone from Europe who writes this
than most. But many Americans are writing it as well.).

Once again people, flame and discuss the specific restrictions as
much as you want. Personally, I've found some of the points made to
be valid ones, and I've tried to respond to those I've considered
invalid or misleading. But keep in mind that due to facilities large
enough to hold a 4K+ person Boskone not being willing to do so,
Boskone will have to cut the number of people attending next year by
50-65%. Given that several *thousand* people who attended this year
and presumably would like to attend next year's will not be able to
and will presumably be disappointed, can anyone honestly come up
with a reason why people who have never attended a Boskone before
should be given preference over those who have been attending other
than "Well, *I* want to attend and I'm a serious sf fan"? The only
possibility that I can think of is an active convention goer who
moved from somewhere far away to the Boston area between Feb. 1987
and Feb 1988. That would get some sympathy from me, but I'd still
rather see people who have been supporting Boskone to be given
preference given that 2-3000 people won't be able to attend and will
be disappointed no matter what.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 19:47:25 GMT
From: dayton!viper!ddb@RUTGERS.EDU (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Boskone Redux

tyg@lll-crg.UUCP (Tom Galloway) writes:
>1) Continuity and excellent organization: Boskone is one of the
>*very* few cons that you can depend on being consistently well
>organinzed.  It's hard to explain with examples what this means;
>it's a lot more obvious when the con is erratic or badly organized.
>I doubt many people who haven't worked/organized a con realize just
>how well Boskone is organized. But most people who do organize/work
>realize this;

The traditional description of Boskone, current in the late 70's and
early 80's anyway, was that they suppressed all parties and made the
films run on time (by analogy to the famous remark about Mussolini).
That's overly harsh, but too funny (and apt) to resist completely.
As somebody who has been involved working or running a LOT of cons
(currently I'm on the Minicon executive committee), let me second
the remarks about Boskone being well- organized and consistent, and
the implications about how rare that combination is.

>3) The number and variety of open parties has been increasing over
>the years. I don't think there's another con in the country that
>has had the type of parties that Boxboro Fandom has thrown over the
>years.  Themes, good food, good organization, 1500 bodies in a
>hotel room :-).  RPI has been throwing a chocolate party the last
>few years. Etc.

The references to Boskone as a Party con has been driving me
not-so-slowly mad.  I lived in Boston from 1981 to 1985, attending
Boskone's regularly, and had been to several, and to Noreason II
(which was just a big Boskone; or else Boskone is just a small
Worldcon).  Boskone as a party con?  It is to laugh.  It's only in
the last few years that the con suite could be found without a
microscope.  The Minicon con suite is the whole 22nd floor of the
hotel.

>So, Mike, what are the other cons you've been to that were more fun
>for you, and why were they that for you. And out of curiosity,
>other than Worldcons, what cons were you thinking of that were
>larger than recent Boskones?

I've also had lots more fun at lots of other conventions than
Boskone, for various reasons.  Partly Boskone's just too big (and I
felt this way at 2500 people).  You can't find anybody!  Partly it's
too much a sercon convention (or not enough; I can go either way,
but the point in the middle isn't my favorite).  I always prefer
Minicon to Boskone.  I much preferred Midamericon, Byobcon back when
they held it, and Torcon II to any Boskone I attended.  Even some
Windycons have been better.
  The only non-world cons larger than recent boskones that I know
about have been media conventions (star trek, who, etc), which are a
whole different universe according to my informants.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb
Fido: sysop of fido 14/341, (612) 721-8967

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 23:14:48 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george@RUTGERS.EDU (Geo. R. Greene,
From: Jr.)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

Arguing with tom y. galloway
> to discuss why NESFA has taken the steps that they've taken.
> Well, I've tried to be polite

Don't bother; I consider most such efforts wasted.  Besides, actions
speak louder than words.  The polite refutation has already been
provided by Don Westlake.  If you were really serious about
politeness you would let him give you lessons.

> But, occasionally, one sentence can sum up an opinion about a
> posting quite well.
>
> George Greene, Jr. is a twit who doesn't have the slightest idea
> what he's talking about in regards to how to run an sf convention.

I don't recall ever having said a damn thing about how to run an SF
convention.  Telling people that they should use more than one hotel
is not telling them how to solve the problems that that will impose.
Just to beat a dead horse into the ground: I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING
about how to run an SF con or any other similar event.  This does
not stop me from knowing that the lame excuse that "no facility is
big enough" is entirely bogus.

> 1) Greene states that a previous poster's perception of the
> Boskone committee having secret society and incestuous attitudes
> is entirely correct, without question. I seriously doubt that
> Greene knows any member of the Boskone committee from last year,
> or any Boston based member of NESFA. I know many of them. Based on
> that knowledge, I'm very sure of my opinion that this is not the
> attitude they are trying to convey.

The attitude that they claim to have is not terribly relevant,
because actions speak louder than words.

> One must wonder how Greene obtained his unqualified opinion about
> this.

As I said, actions speak louder than words.  When a group of people
know that there is going to be 2x amount of demand for a product,
and contrive to ensure that All 1x of themselves will get their
demand met, but most of the people who do not belong to the group
will not, that is being incestuous, elitist, etc., ad nauseam.
Questions about whether they had any alternatives are legitimate,
however.

> Spirit messages perhaps?

That arguably qualifies as SF, although it has even less than the
usual tenuous connection with reality needed to escape Fantasy.

> Huh? When the motivation is that there is no facility that is
> willing to have the con that's physically capable of having a con
> of greater than 2,000 attendance? I'd call that pretty relevant.

I'd call any concept whatsoever of "facility" irrelevant, as long as
you are using the singular.  If the facility is too small then you
use adjacent facilitIES.

That is obviously NOT the real reason.

> Wishing won't make it so.

But braving the wind and coping with the logistics WILL.  It's just
a question of whether the organizing committee would rather do that
or resort to the elitist wimp-out.

> Besides, I, at least, can certainly do without the part of such a
> sample which consists of people coming solely for a drunken party.

This is really the core point.  If these people really do exist and
there is a reliable way to screen them, then most of the problems
are solved.  My personal greatest fear is that there exists, between
the irresponsible partiers and the SF lovers, an irreducible amount
of overlap.

> He then goes on to comment:
>>[The committee being forced to cut attendance due to lack of a
>>suitable facility] is untrue.  People almost always have choices.
>>The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and be
>>held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling hotels.
>>All other requirements are flexible.
>
>  Gee, based on this paragraph, we don't even need a Boskone
> committee or staff; that's a flexible requirement!

Of course it is.  If enough people are feeling shut out and are mad
enough about it then they will do exactly that (have an SF con in
Boston without the blessing of NESFA's Boskone committee).  If they
aren't motivated enough to do it, then NESFA hasn't pissed them off
very much, so that would prove that NESFA's action wasn't so bad
after all.

> Just everybody who'd like to go to a Boskone show up next
> President's Day weekend at the Sheraton and do a Boskone!

I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already.  They don't
have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just arrange
to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" people
(fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that weekend.
Starting now.  They could screen by how far in advance people were
willing to pay.  Whether the Sheraton was willing to "accept"
Boskone would then become an entirely moot point.

> No, they can't just become a distributed system. Did you know that
> the wind chill factor during this year's Boskone was constantly
> subzero Farenheit?
>
> Distributed large cons have been tried before (mostly at
> Worldcons).  With the exception of this year's Atlanta Worldcon,
> (where the hotels were across a 4 lane street from each other),
> it's never really worked successfully to my knowledge.

I would say that if Atlanta can do it, surely Boston can.  But not
necessarily in the winter.  That is a legitimate problem.

> Hell, you don't even know if there's such a geographic situation,
> but you're already willing to tell NESFA what's obvious.

Well, there either is one or there isn't; my not knowing about it
doesn't make it cease to exist.

> Well, what's obvious to me, as someone who's helped organize large
> sf cons, is that in addition to fighting low temperatures, you'll
> have even more problems with people wandering around doing
> vandalism and the like.

This ridiculous.  This is a red herring.  This is mixing issues.
The problem that we are discussing is not the presence of a minority
of vandals.  It is the problem of too large a majority of "good"
fans.  Whatever strategy you use for handling vandals at one
sub-site will work equally well at all the others.

> Spreading a con over 2 or 3 hotels would probably increase the
> load on an already strained con committee more exponentially than
> linearly.

Why is the con committee strained?  If there are 4500 people who
want to go, SURELY there must be "enough" who want to plan.  I would
think that slots on the con organizing committee would be among the
most highly prized offices in NESFA.  If the con committee is
strained I would expect it to be more because of its unwillingness
to share clout & credit than because of lack of interest from the
membership in contributing person-power to the effort.

> A quick obvious one is that you'll probably need larger spaces for
> the art show, huckster's room, and large program items than any
> single small hotel would have available.

The smallest tolerable "large room" is available only in a large
hotel?  I would humbly suggest looking harder.

> Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's
> complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do
> that. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con will run into
> exactly the same problems that NESFA ran into when they tried to
> schedule next year's Boskone.

No, if we run it at the same time, it will only be a 2,000 person
con.

> based on NESFA's well-deserved reputation in fandom for running
> the best organized conventions, I predict a major disaster for any
> inexperienced group of people who tries to do so. Convention
> running is *work*, particularly *large* convention running. Any
> group that tries [that] as their first attempt is asking for
> disaster.

You're probably right.  But I still think there are enough people in
the pool with the relevant expertise.

[ re shrinking of Boskone being beyond control of NESFA ]

> George states:
>>This is patently false.  There is more than 1 small hotel in
>>Boston.
> Sorry. George's statement is the one that is false.

Well, since I don't believe you, I'll state it again anyway.  There
is more than 1 [large] small hotel in Boston.  Wind chill, committee
strain, and 1 large room are Problems that I hadn't thought about;
that is part of the reason why I apologized to Eastlake (another
part is that he was polite).  But these problems would not be
insurmountable for any group that was as committed to fairness and
bigness as I would expect them to be.  Nothing has 1 cause.

Biased hotel management is of course one of the contributing factors
to my inability to go the next Boskone.  But another is simply that
the relevant sub-committee of NESFA has drawn a line beyond which
they Will Not Suffer Exertion.  Claims by the defenders of the
committee that it is Out Of Their Hands are simply untrue.

> He's made some assumptions that he takes to be facts, without
> having any experience to back them up with.

The only assumptions that I made were that there existed both 1) a
cluster of appropriately-sized hotels, and 2) a group of people
willing and able to plan a convention around them in the Boston
area.  I don't NEED any experience to know that both of those
assumptions are true.  On the other hand, experience with the wind
chill factor might convince me that it wasn't, for the fans, worth
the trouble.  If the organizing committee claims it's not worth
THEIR trouble then it is the wrong committee.

> George's style is to be offensive and his substance consists of
> figments of an inexperienced imagination.

I do not think you should refer to anything as concrete as a cluster
of hotels as a figment of my imagination, even if it *is*
inexperienced.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Apr 87 0929-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #161
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Apr 87 0929-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #161
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:

             Miscellaneous - Influences on SF (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 87 13:57 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Hyperdriving under the influence...

Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR WARS
tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources?  I offer the
following example:

In the early Seventies, Jack Kirby had a complex interconnecting
series of comic book stories that seem to parallel SW very closely.
There was Darkseid, who even LOOKED like Darth Vader, who also
happened to be the father of the hero, Orion.  They even had a
mysterious power called "The Source" which was called upon from time
to time.  Obi Wan Kenobi was replaced by a character called
Highfather.  It has bothered me for years that while George Lucas
rakes in money by the truckload for stolen ideas, Jack Kirby can't
make a cent off those very ideas.

Let's here some more 'sources' for Star Wars!

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 23:43:01 GMT
From: oliveb!trash@rutgers.edu (Tom Repa)
Subject: Under the influence of Star Wars

From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR
> WARS tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources?  I offer
> the following example:
       [ ... text deleted ... ]
> Let's here some more 'sources' for Star Wars!

I think the best reference for where George got the ideas for Star
Wars is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell.  He is
(was?) a anthropologist (socialoligist?psychologist?) who studied
the myths of more cultures on this planet then I knew existed. He
codified them into a concise "myth cycle" which summed up the basic
plot of all adolescent -> adult "Hero" myths.  I wrote a paper about
it and it is really amazing how closely Star Wars follows this
traditional pattern. I think this is one of the reasons that SW was
such a big hit. It uses the most basic mythic structure, one that is
common to all races and cultures, and tells a story that is almost
pure, crystalized myth.

If you're into social science fiction, or mythology, you might like
Hero with a Thousand Faces. Its a serious, scholarly work, but it is
facinating to see how much differnt cultures have in common.  It
also has a lot of differnt myths from differnt cultures, and some of
this is as facinating as any SF( whether you call it "sif", "skiffy"
or "sie-fie" or Science Fiction).

In other words, I don't think George stole the ideas in SW from
anybody. I think he stole them from EVERYBODY.  [ n.b. to Mr. Lucas'
lawyers: I am not really implying that Mr. Lucas plagerized Star
Wars, in whole or in part, from anybody, anywhere. So leave me
alone. ]

He also author a set of books about myths of the orient, or wasn
that part of a set of all the worlds myth? Anyway, it's all great!

Tom Repa
trash@oliven

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 19:07:28 GMT
From: kathy@ll-xn.ARPA (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

> I think the best reference for where George got the ideas for Star
> Wars is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell.  He is
> (was?) a anthropologist (socialoligist?psychologist?) who studied
> the myths of more cultures on this planet then I knew existed. He
> codified them into a concise "myth cycle" which summed up the
> basic plot of all adolescent -> adult "Hero" myths.

   Lucas is not the only one to use this as a reference.  I suspect
if you had access to them, a lot of authors would tell you they've
used this as a "reference", either directly or indirectly.  Andre
Norton said many years ago in an article on how she researches her
fantasies and where she gets her ideas that the "Hero with a
Thousand Faces" was an invaluable resource, and one she would
recommend to anyone trying to write fantasy.

   Campbell also wrote a massive several volume work called "The
Masks of God," compiling various world mythologies, which is still
one of the classic works in the field of comparative mythology.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 21:11:08 GMT
From: hi!vince@rutgers.edu (Vince Murphy)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

> Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR
> WARS tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources?  I offer
> the following example:

  I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the scene where Luke
finds his uncle and aunt smoldering is a quote from The Searchers.
Also, the final scene of the heroes getting their medals is from the
Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the Will.

Vincent J. Murphy
University Of New Mexico
hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 20:47:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star War

> As far as Luke's uncle and aunt's death scene, it does have some
> elements of "Clementine" in it, but I believe Lucas said it was a
> "steal" from the Searchers.  Actually, I don't think Lucas has an
> original bone in his body.

I think that's the interesting thing about Star Wars; although it is
essentially a re-hash of a lot of 'old stuff', it stands on its own
merit as (I think) a thoroughly enjoyable synthesis.

I was sitting here and trying just now to think of some
books/movies/etc that have been written in the same way and have
been of comparable or greater merit, and I have failed.  Can anyone
offer other examples?

ihnp4!bradley!retief

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 11:02:31 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com>
Subject: Star Wars Influences

A friend pointed out years ago the similarities to "Sword of Doom",
a Japanese movie starring Nakadai Tatsuya (who played the father in
"Ran").  In "Sword of Doom", Nakadai plays a swordsman who develops
an "evil" sword style, and using this style corrupts him and turns
him evil.  Or to put it another way, he is seduced by the dark side
of the sword.  The movie is based on a Japanese novel which was the
basis for a different two- or three- part series of movies.
Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the book or the other
movies.

Personally, I've always been struck by the parallels to the movie
version of "The Wizard of Oz".  When the good guys hide in their
ship, overpower some stormtroopers, and then come out wearing their
costumes, I keep expecting one of them to try hiding his tail, and
the line of stormtroopers to break into a chorus of "Yo-ee-oh.
Yoh-oh."  The Jawas can be seen as Munchkins, C3PO as the Tin Man,
R2D2 as Toto, Darth Vader as the Wicked Witch of the West, Obi-wan
as Glinda, etc.  "Pay no attention to those droids behind the
curtain.  They're not the droids you want."

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 03:37:41 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star War

retief@bradley.UUCP writes:
>I think that's the interesting thing about Star Wars; although it
>is essentially a re-hash of a lot of 'old stuff', it stands on its
>own merit as (I think) a thoroughly enjoyable synthesis.
>
>I was sitting here and trying just now to think of some
>books/movies/etc that have been written in the same way and have
>been of comparable or greater merit, and I have failed.  Can anyone
>offer other examples?

Well, though I can't answer your query directly, I have a few
relevant things to say that I didn't get in the first time 'round.
    Many people will, at the drop of a hat, point out that
Shakespeare didn't come up with a completely original plot in his
life.  Other people will, after hours of frustrated writing,
complain that there are no new ideas left.  This is, in fact,
probably true if you interpret it the right way.  In any case, the
point I am trying to make is that the fact that Star Wars is a
re-hash of old stuff is nothing unusual, and in fact nearly everyone
who writes steals something from somewhere, whether they know it or
not.  Incidentally, I just saw Hidden Fortress, which is fantastic,
and it is impossible to watch without wrongly anticipating lines
like "It seems as though we were made to suffer!"  if you've thought
about Star Wars in the preceding 24 hrs.  Anyhow, Star Wars should
be lauded for "stealing" from quality stuff, not gaped at for doing
what everyone else is [and should be] doing anyway.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87  12:49:15 EDT
From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!)

mimsy!eneevax!russell@rutgers.edu (Christopher Russel) writes:
> While we're screaming at Lucas to get his act together, how about
> telling him to GET A REAL PLANET!  Come on!  First, it was the
> DESERT planet of Tatooine, then it was the ICE planet Hoth, then
> it was the FOREST moon of Endor!  Please!  You would think the
> entire universe was filled with single-terrain planets.  What's
> next?  The Ocean planet?  The Very-Muddy planet?  The
> Asphalt-paved planet?

Since when do all "habitable" planets have to be Earth clones? It
strikes me that single-terrain planets such as those would tend to
be the norm.  Just take a look at Mars sometime; give it a decent
atmosphere and it would be a lot like Tatooine (Why you'd want to do
that is another matter entirely :-). Earth is an extremely
diversified planet due to its oceans, the tilt of the poles, and its
climate patterns. But roll back to the last Ice Age and most of it
would look like Hoth. Accelerate the green- house effect and it
would look like Dagobah. Sink the continents and it would be your
Ocean planet. As a matter of fact, multi-terrain planets like this
one are probably the exception rather than the rule.

Chip Olson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87 14:59:48 PST
From: Marty Cohen <mcohen@nrtc.arpa>
Subject: Under even more influences

The following are some interesting correspondences that I have
noticed.

1. In the 1950's, the Disney studios created a cartoon (taken from
an earlier book) called "Pigs is Pigs". In it, a railroad
stationmaster is left with two guinea pigs. They are cute, furry,
squeak, and reproduce at a tremendous rate. At the end, the
stationmaster gets rid of them by placing them on a train and
sending them down the line.

Remind you of a well-known episode of a SF TV series?

2. Another Disney cartoon (amazing what having a 2-1/2 year old will
cause one to see) has Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, and Goofy trying to
make a living getting rid of ghosts. During their battles against
some ghosts, they get clobbered, doused with water, and covered with
molasses and flour.

I seem to recall a recent movie ...

3. In the movie "Mad Max" (the first in the series, I think), the
hero drives a souped up black car, either Camaro or Firebird.  One
of the bikers he battles is named "Night Rider".

A certain TV series comes to mind.

4. A friend of mine pointed out to me that there are some startling
similarities between the music to Star Wars and Superman and a
single composition written in the 1930's - I don't remember the
composer, but it wasn't John Williams.

Oh well, true originality is hard to find. Someone has probably
already written this message 2 years ago.

Marty Cohen
(mcohen@nrtc.northrop.com)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 03:32:43 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Under even more influences

From: Marty Cohen <mcohen@nrtc.arpa>
> 3. In the movie "Mad Max" (the first in the series, I think),
> the hero drives a souped up black car, either Camaro or Firebird.
> One of the bikers he battles is named "Night Rider".
>
> A certain TV series comes to mind.

Um, it's been asked and answered before, but...

The car was a Cortina, made somewhere in the U.K. or Australia.  If
the latter, it was an Australian Ford, and has a reputation as quite
a hot car right from the factory...

Was the car in the movie black? I couldn't tell- dirt! 8-)

Eric C.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 07:21:10 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!)

>Since when do all "habitable" planets have to be Earth clones? It
>strikes me that single-terrain planets such as those would tend to
>be the norm.  Just take a look at Mars sometime; give it a decent
>atmosphere and it would be a lot like Tatooine (Why you'd want to
>do that is another matter entirely :-). Earth is an extremely
>diversified planet due to its oceans, the tilt of the poles, and
>its climate patterns. But roll back to the last Ice Age and most of
>it would look like Hoth. Accelerate the green- house effect and it
>would look like Dagobah. Sink the continents and it would be your
>Ocean planet. As a matter of fact, multi-terrain planets like this
>one are probably the exception rather than the rule.

I agree that all planets should not be Earth-clones but neither
should they be single terrain.  May I suggest, though, that before
you read up on a little geology before making statements such as
above.

1. Mars has a variety of terrains including shield volcanos,
extremely deep canyons, dry channels that look like river beds, ice
caps and more.

2. In the last Ice age, there were large areas (the tropics for
example) which had climates very close to what they are now.  Other
areas were changed but were not iced over (most northern hemisphere
deserts were wetter then).

3. We don't exactly know what changes will be cause by the
greenhouse effect, but it almost certainly will not result in all
land areas becoming tropic jungles.

4. Most of the sizable planets in the Solar System (excluding gas
giants) have more than one type of terrain.  A sizable planet is any
body roughly the size of the Moon or larger.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Apr 87 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #162
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Apr 87 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #162
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 87  15:19:59 EDT
From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (MATTHEW G. SAROFF)
Subject: Some Clarifications on Last Letter:

Hi,
My Sincerest apologies to those who mistook the intent of my letter
about the legal repurcussions of certain actions that NESFA might
be.

While I do feel that non-trnsferrable membership will be a pain for
me, my comment about legal repurcussions is simply that there has
been an implied guarantee established about membership
transferrability.  All that NESFA has to do in this matter is to
inform people when they buy a membership that it is
non-transferrable.  If you make good faith effort, there will be no
problem (Personally, I think that someone in NESFA is worried about
membership scalping.)

My second comment was on the *involuntary* refund of the $18.00
memberships.  The purchase of a membership is a contract, and
refunding the money would appear to be breaking said contract.
Seeing as how NESFA is in pretty good financial shape, eating a loss
on the $18 memberships or subsidising them with more expensive later
memberships is possible, and this would avoid problems.

I wish to state clearly that the involuntary refund of memberships
is *NOT* currently NESFA policy.  It was merely mentioned by someone
in the minutes, and I felt that it would be effective to get my
$0.02 in before it became policy.

Another note:
As someone who has founded and run 2 S.F. Conventions, it is an
*expletive deleted* load of work to put even a small covention on.
You need lots of dedicated people, and I can understand how people
in NESFA get p.o.'d at people who just sit around and complain.  I
had to fight "armchair cynics" every step of the way to get the
convention started.

Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 18:54:33 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george@RUTGERS.EDU (Geo. R. Greene,
From: Jr.)
Subject: Re: Boskone Redux

I should've suspected that Mr. Galloway would prove my point
eventually.  In keeping with his seeming credo of "Boskone, right or
wrong!", he eventually got around to posting a list of the things
that have made 4500 people want to go to it.  Item 5 on this list is

> 5) Boskone's got Boston.  It's been held downtown, and has been
> very easy to get to by mass transit. MIT's across the river. There
> are restaurants of every kind within easy access. There are large
> numbers of technically oriented people in the metro area.  This
> can make things more interesting. Boston's also filled with other
> things to see and do before and after the con.

All this, and no appropriate cluster of hotels?  That's hardly
plausible.  And then, from the same person who told us that that
strategy would place too much strain on the organizing committee, we
hear,

> 1) Continuity and excellent organization: Boskone is one of the
> *very* few cons that you can depend on being consistently well
> organinzed.
> ...
> I doubt many people who haven't worked/organized a con realize
> just how well Boskone is organized. But most people who do
> organize/work realize this;
> ...
> 2) Due to the above organizational skills,

etc., etc.

With all due respect, I should think that if there were ANY
metropolitan area in the world where the local talent pool would
contain adequate organizational power to handle the distributed
configuration, it would have to be Boston.  Besides, If their 1989
Worldcon bid is unopposed, then which hotel are they going to put
Worldcon in?  Surely this hotel doesn't think that Worldcon will be
any more peaceful than the last Boskone, does it?  Or are they
planning to use summer/unoccupied dorms on the campuses of
universities for Worldcon?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1987 18:44 EDT
From: Ben Yalow <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Boskone XXV

Contrary to some published statements, NESFA has taken no action
authorizing mandatory returning those BOSKONE XXV memberships
already purchased.  Currently, it has authorized allowing refunds to
those who have already purchased memberships, at the request of the
person who has purchased the membership.  Further information on
this (and other plans for Boskone) will be appearing in a letter in
the future, as well as distribution through other mechanisms.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 19:44:23 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

This is more comment on Boskone & NESFA, following up Tom Galloway
and George Greene. For those of you who don't want to follow point
by point, let me just say that I think everyone's getting a bit
carried away. No one has determined the fate of Boskone forever. The
restrictions imposed on the next Boskone are ONLY for the next
Boskone; then NESFA will reevaluate. So if they are being fair, or
unfair, or really nasty, or subhuman, or whatever, does it matter
that much? Give them a year to rebound, and see what happens after
that. I suspect that once the people in charge of NESFA feel
reassured that the convention is not completely out of control, they
will loosen up.

And PLEASE, nobody flame me or the committee for saying that the
committee wants to CONTROL the convention. (Am I being paranoid?
Maybe, but in this discussion it's hard to help it.) Of COURSE they
want control. They're legally responsible for all sorts of potential
horribleness, plus if things run wildly amuck (or are PERCEIVED by
hotels as doing so) any more, it will be even harder to find a place
to hold the con.

george@scirtp.UUCP (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.) writes:
>Arguing with tom y. galloway
>I don't recall ever having said a damn thing about how to run an SF
>convention.  Telling people that they should use more than one
>hotel is not telling them how to solve the problems that that will
>impose.  Just to beat a dead horse into the ground: I DO NOT KNOW
>ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar event.
>This does not stop me from knowing that the lame excuse that "no
>facility is big enough" is entirely bogus.

You suggested multiple hotels in a way that made it sound as though
you thought that it was an obvious and simple solution to [some of]
Boskone's problems. That just isn't true, for reasons Tom made
clear.  When you offer solutions in that manner, you are implicitly
claiming that you know better how to run the con than the people who
are blind enough not to see such an obvious answer. If you don't
know anything about how to run a con, stop acting as though you
think you do.

>The attitude that they claim to have is not terribly relevant,
>because actions speak louder than words.

Which is why I made the comment to you above.

>As I said, actions speak louder than words.  When a group of people
>know that there is going to be 2x amount of demand for a product,
>and contrive to ensure that All 1x of themselves will get their
>demand met, but most of the people who do not belong to the group
>will not, that is being incestuous, elitist, etc., ad nauseam.
>Questions about whether they had any alternatives are legitimate,
>however.

This brings us back to the question of whether fan clubs,
particularly big ones like NESFA, have any responsibility to local
fans not in the club, far-away fans, etc. As I said 'way back when,
I don't think they do (other than the simple human responsibilities
we all have, obviously). If NESFA is ensuring that only people of
the sort they want can come to next year's Boskone, that is in fact
elitist, but elitist is a loaded term. Why should NESFA have a
responsibility to others to make Boskone a place for them? I have
always seen the con as a NESFA function that they were kind enough
to invite me to.

I don't see what you mean to say by "all 1x of themselves will get
their demand met, but most of the people who do not belong to the
group will not." Are you seriously complaining about the fact that
the people who put on Boskone get guaranteed admittance? Are you
going to start complaining now that only people who work on cons can
get into the green room?

The group of people who put on Boskone is NOT identical with the
group of people who will be attending it next year. The group of
people who will be attending it next year are not a body which has
had any input as a body on the form or content of the con. There
isn't any homogenous "group" which is getting entrance to the con.
If NESFA is trying to be selective in favor of active fans, it's
because they believe that the con will be more the sort of con they
want to run if they do that.

And by the way, I seem to recall from the original postings copied
from the NESFA newszine Instant Message that anyone who was willing
to work on the con could get in. Sounds eminently fair to me.
Someone recently posted a comment that he (I disremember the name)
had been going to Boskones for the past few years but never realized
that they would welcome his help, and all I can say is, you must
never have read a single issue of Helmuth, the twice-a-day Boskone
newszine. I've been to five Boskones (but in case anyone is
wondering, not within the last three years), and at every one they
were begging for volunteers in every area.

>> Wishing won't make it so. [Tom]
>But braving the wind and coping with the logistics WILL.  It's just
>a question of whether the organizing committee would rather do that
>or resort to the elitist wimp-out.

Look, if you do not know anything about how to run a con (your
words), then you have no idea of how difficult it might be to run a
multiple-hotel con. So where do you get off saying that not doing so
is a wimp-out? Tom has worked on many conventions and probably knows
what he's talking about.

[Tom quoting George:]
>>>[The committee being forced to cut attendance due to lack of a
>>>suitable facility] is untrue.  People almost always have choices.
>>>The only absolute requirements are that the con be about SF and
>>>be held in Boston or Cambridge in spaces vaguely resembling
>>>hotels. All other requirements are flexible.
[Tom's response:]
>>  Gee, based on this paragraph, we don't even need a Boskone
>>  committee or staff; that's a flexible requirement!
[George's response:]
>Of course it is.  If enough people are feeling shut out and are mad
>enough about it then they will do exactly that (have an SF con in
>Boston without the blessing of NESFA's Boskone committee).

George, there is a BIG difference between a convention whose
committee is not the NESFA Boskone committee, and a convention
without a committee at all. The first may be seen every weekend in
cities across the world; the second is also known as a gathering in
someone's house.  If you're going to have guests, panels, dealers,
movies, parties, shows, a hotel, someone has to organize it.

NESFA has never claimed to be the only people allowed to put on a
Boston con. Few others compete, because NESFA has been so good at
it.  There are other Boston-area cons, however.

[Tom, being sarcastic about George's comment above:]
>> Just everybody who'd like to go to a Boskone show up next
>> President's Day weekend at the Sheraton and do a Boskone!
>
>I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already.  They don't
>have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just arrange
>to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" people
>(fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that weekend.
>Starting now.  They could screen by how far in advance people were
>willing to pay.  Whether the Sheraton was willing to "accept"
>Boskone would then become an entirely moot point.

George, you have GOT to be kidding. I begin to wonder if you have
ever even been to a con. Without hotel cooperation, how are you
going to get function space, blocked rooms, staff prepared for hall
costumes (police have been called at cons when someone who didn't
know what was going on wandered in and saw someone with a blaster,
or even just looking weird), etc. etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if
there were legal problems with this idea as well.

[Tom on multi-hotel cons:]
>> Well, what's obvious to me, as someone who's helped organize
>> large sf cons, is that in addition to fighting low temperatures,
>> you'll have even more problems with people wandering around doing
>> vandalism and the like.
>This ridiculous.  This is a red herring.  This is mixing issues.
>The problem that we are discussing is not the presence of a
>minority of vandals.  It is the problem of too large a majority of
>"good" fans.  Whatever strategy you use for handling vandals at one
>sub-site will work equally well at all the others.

No, it's not ridiculous. There are several interrelated problems
Boskone is having; one is vandalism and another is the simple fact
of too many people. If Tom, who is experienced in organizing large
cons, says that distributed hotels will increase vandalism, it seems
to me that his opinion is worth at least listening to.

>Why is the con committee strained?  If there are 4500 people who
>want to go, SURELY there must be "enough" who want to plan.  I
>would think that slots on the con organizing committee would be
>among the most highly prized offices in NESFA.  If the con
>committee is strained I would expect it to be more because of its
>unwillingness to share clout & credit than because of lack of
>interest from the membership in contributing person-power to the
>effort.

This is just ridiculous. Have you ever been to a Boskone and read
their pleas for help? Have you ever been to a NESFA meeting (they
are all open meetings) and offered to pitch in on Boskone? (A friend
of mine & I were damn near drafted when we dropped by last
December.) Do you have any conception of how complex an undertaking
a convention is?  Many people do not have time to run a con. Of
those who do want to help, not all have the knowledge to run things.
(If you were con committee chair, ultimately responsible, would you
let a volunteer whose qualifications you didn't know handle the
thousands of dollars involved in, say, the art show? Be in charge of
professional guests?  Remember that if they muck up and lose Michael
Whelan's masterpiece, or fatally insult Harlan Ellison, you take the
rap in the end. If you would, I don't want to be anywhere near that
con.)

>The smallest tolerable "large room" is available only in a large
>hotel?  I would humbly suggest looking harder.

Depends what you want. If you want a dealers' room which can
accommodate a 4500-person con, then probably it is only available in
a large hotel. If you want a film room where STAR WARS can be shown,
ditto.

>Wind chill, committee strain, and 1 large room are Problems that I
>hadn't thought about; that is part of the reason why I apologized
>to Eastlake (another part is that he was polite).  But these
>problems would not be insurmountable for any group that was as
>committed to fairness and bigness as I would expect them to be.

What gives you the right to expect NESFA to be committed to bigness?
It's my understanding that they do not like such a huge con, even
aside from hotel problems (this was being spoken of three years ago,
when I last went to a Boskone). It's not NESFA's sacred duty to hold
a con bigger than many Worldcons.

>Nothing has 1 cause.  Biased hotel management is of course one of
>the contributing factors to my inability to go the next Boskone.
>But another is simply that the relevant sub-committee of NESFA has
>drawn a line beyond which they Will Not Suffer Exertion.  Claims by
>the defenders of the committee that it is Out Of Their Hands are
>simply untrue.

And you have no conception, by your own admission, of the amount of
exertion they are refusing.

>If the organizing committee claims it's not worth THEIR trouble
>then it is the wrong committee.

So form another. There is nothing magic about NESFA, except that
they are one of the oldest fan clubs in the world and consistently
hold some of the best-organized, most efficiently-run conventions in
the country. If their talent pool thinks something is unworkable,
there's a good chance it is. But nothing's stopping you from finding
out.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Apr 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #163
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Apr 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #163
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Asimov (2 msgs) & Asprin &
                    Bradley & Brooks & Brunner & Hubbard &
                    Lee & LeGuin & Niven & Norton &
                    Silverberg (2 msgs) & Stephenson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Piers Anthony

  In a previous article, ole Obnoxio mentioned Pier Xanthony's Xanth
series.  I'm not going to say it was a literary masterpiece, but it
did serve a purpose.  I've argued this point many a time with
Kev/ugcherk/Gup to no avail so I pose the argument to you.
  You'll never find anything "deep" in any of Anthony's numerous
volumes of books (e.g. _Bio of a Space Tyrant_, _Apprentice Adept_,
etc.), in fact, most of his stuff is pretty boring and very
redundant.  The fact remains, though, that it can be a lot of fun
and very relaxing.  I'm speaking mainly of his Xanth series.  _A
Spell for Chameleon_ remains one of my favorites.  They're all the
kinds of books you can just kick back and park your brain for a
couple of hours with if that's what you want to do.  They're fun.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 21:48:50 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Which robot reference came first - was "Berserker" stuff

ahh@s.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP (Brent L. Woods) writes:
>     Mr. Cherkauer, I have noticed in this posting (see above) and
>others (the "Nightfall" discussion) that you seem to have a
>definite bias against Isacc Asimov.  As a matter of fact, you seem
>to devote a significant amount of effort to slamming him.  Is there
>some reason for this?  Or, are you just attacking him because he is
>generally regarded as one of the "greats" of Science Fiction?  Or
>is it personal?  I wonder, since you haven't missed an opportunity
>to flame him, yet you give no reasons for such flamage.

Nightfall: I *gave* reasons.

Asimov in general: Yes, I slam him deliberately. It is not because
of some random personal bias, though. "Nightfall" was just an
example of what I see as his *worst* stuff. Most of his other stuff
is better, but still, in my opinion, not worth reading.

I have read a lot of his stuff, and I haven't ever liked any of it.
I think he is an extraordinarily bad story teller, and understands
nothing of the human condition.

I have even read a lot of his non-fiction. One scientific
non-fiction book of his I have read is _Is Anyone Out There?_ This
book is just *filled* with things about relativity that are plain
*wrong*. What irks me is that a lot of kids out there look to him as
a scientific authority, when actually his authority does not extend
much beyond the realm of *chemistry*, which is what he got his
doctorate in. Of *physics*, he demonstrates very little
understanding.

It also bothers me that someone who is so blind to *people* has such
mass appeal.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 23:53:07 GMT
From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Magical Shop results

From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
>P.S.  There is an anthology titled "Magic for Sale" -- a collection
>of just the stories you're looking for -- but the stories it
>contains are uniformly bad.

Indeed?  Yet this same anthology includes Sturgeon's "Shottle Bop",
twice praised in this very same summary:

From: dplatt@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Dave Platt)
>"Shottle Bop", by the late, much-lamented Theodore Sturgeon, is my
>favorite in this genre.

From: Kevin Cherkauer <ames!sunybcs!ugcherk@rsch.wisc.edu>
>I read a very good "magic shop" story called "Shottle Bop" ("Bottle
>Shop" with the first letters switched).

On a less disputable note, the proper title for the Asimov-Wishes
collection is _Isaac_Asimov's_Magical_Worlds_of_Fantasy_7:_Magical_
_Wishes_.  Like all the others associated with this one, it is
actually an Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology.

Chris Torek
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690)
UUCP: seismo!mimsy!chris
ARPA/CSNet: chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Asprin

  A couple (bunch) of articles ago, someone mentioned the low
quality of Robert Lynn Asprin's Myth series.  Well, I read the hard
cover version (the first three or four stories - app. 750 pages) in
a couple of hours.  I'm not *that* fast a reader.  The stories were
so predictable and simple-minded that you could literally put your
mind on cruise control and zip through the book.  Again, though, if
that's what you want to do, this is your book.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 02:22:00 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!watnot!dagibbs@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: the Zimmers

c60a-4er@tart20.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>If you find out about the Mythos names in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
>works (also in Paul Edwin Zimmer's--I think he's her brother) I'd

I would like to correct you on the relationship between Marion
Zimmer Bradley and Paul Edwin Zimmer; they are not sister/brother,
they are married.

p.s. I don't flame spelling, just incorrect info.

Dave
dagibbs@watnot.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Wishsong of Shannara

   Does anyone know when _Wishsong of Shannara_ is going to come out
in regular paperback?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 08:16:04 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60/C)
Subject: Re: John Brunner

Digging (and I mean digging, my library resides in several boxes in
the back room) into my library, I came up with these additions:

The Traveler in Black
Bedlam Planet
No Future in It
Polymath
Born Under Mars
Interstellar Empire
The Jagged Orbit
   Another one in the style of Zanzibar" and "Sheep Look Up"
The World Swappers
The Avengers of Carrig
The Long Result
Players at the Game of People

Most of these are fairly short and not very memorable (not that
they're bad, just not particularly good).  Two that stand out are
"Players at the Game of People" and "The Traveler in Black".

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 01:34:09 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!tim@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

8440827%wwu.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET writes:
>I have been reading a very long, but very good book by L. Ron
>Hubbard called Battlefield Earth.  I was wondering if any has read
>any of his other SF works such as the Mission Earth series and if
>they are any good.

Battlefield Earth I found to be a very enjoyable book (despite the
length of it, it never got boring).

I have started the Mission Earth series (read the first 3 books).
The first book was "ok", and the second two went downhill from
there.  I stopped at the third, thinking that if this is how it is
going to go, I dont think I would want to see book number 10 of the
series!

I have heard, however, that the book does pick up at book four, so I
may start reading the series again.  Read the first book of the
series and then decide then if you want to get involved in a ten
book series.

Timothy D. Thomas
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!tim
CSnet: tim@buffalo
ARPAnet: tim%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 19:09:27 GMT
From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Night's Sorceries, by Tanith Lee

The latest "Flat Earth" book is out, and I'm not disappointed.  Lee
departs from the naming convention, but then the book is a slight
departure in terms of format as well.  It still is a collection of
stories set in the time of the flat earth, but there is less of a
central theme to them.  They all take place at the same time (or a
little after) as the stories in Delerium's Mistress, but she and her
un-relatives don't turn up as the major figures in the stories as
much as they do in the other books.  They do, however, often serve
as interesting plot-advancing passers-by.

Just a small sample of the kind of writer-to-reader fooling around
that Lee gets into in these books and which I enjoy thoroughly, I'll
mention

                      *** POSSIBLE SPOILER ***

that in one of the stories... well... you know how terrible and
stupid and awful it is when an author tells a long complicated
story, and then at the end to make it fit, just does a sort of "...
and then <insert hero(ine)> wakes up"?  Know what I mean?  Don't you
just *hate* it when that happens?  Well, Lee does that in one of the
stories.  But the odd thing is... it worked!  I *loved* it.

If you haven't yet, go out and get these books and read them.  I
think they are very good indeed, and haven't been going downhill,
neither.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 23:37:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP!

LeGuin's "The Disposessed" is a fine, good book.

It was written in the framework of Earth-Hain-etc (Rocannan's World/
Semley's Necklace) and is about the ideological contest between two
planets, as embodied by the life of a physicist from one of the two.
Something akin to "real" Communism (i.e., anarchistic and communal)
is the system the physicist comes from.  Very interesting -- many
things seeming the same as in political systems around us now yet
different.

No, I don't remember anymore names.  What other books has LeGuin
written in the Earth-Hain-etc framework?

ihnp4!bradley!retief

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 87 16:54:23 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven returns

bmg1@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Brett Goldstock) writes:
>      He has finished the sequel to "The Integral Trees".  I don't
> remember the title, and I don't think it's out in book form yet,
> but it's serialized in the January/April issues of "Analog".

_The Smoke Ring_, a follow-up to _The Integral Trees_, was in Analog
Jan - Apr '87.  Like much of Niven's stuff lately, it has left me
rather unimpressed.  Seems like he lost a lot of his appeal (for me,
at least) in the mid-70s somewhere.

Scott Bayes
hpfcla!bayes

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 11:14:38 PDT (Friday)
From: "Leeanna_Dibrell.OsbuSouth"@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re:SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #147

I just joined the group and probably someone else has already
answered Brad but here goes my answer anyway - I thought EVERYONE
knew that Andre Norton was a woman.  She started out in the era when
the only way a woman could get published was to write under a male
name.  Thank goodness THAT has changed, but she still retains her
male name and is still writing.  I heard that her original profession
was a school teacher.  I can only guess that her pseudonym was so
"saleable" that it was moneywise to just keep it once it became
possible for women to get printed under their own names.  Although I
have a met a lot of the writers I have only seen a picture of her.

Tiptree is also a woman.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 01:44:31 GMT
From: cmcl2!delftcc!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus)

From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
>   I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of
>it soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a
>wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated sl*meball is
>still a sl*meball, and that's what the main character was.

I've read two of Silverberg's books, "Dying Inside" and "Up The
Line", the latter I rather enjoyed, the former I didn't, mostly
because of my reaction towards the protagonist (similar to yours).
However, I thought the whole point of "Dying Inside" was that his
gift was his ruin.

Are there any other instances in SF where the subject of telepathy
is treated as a curse rather than a gift?

"Up The Line", for those not familiar with Silverberg, is a classic
Time Travel story, wherein we find two veteran time services, the
time police and the time couriers, of whom the protagonist is a new
recruit, who escort tourists thru history.  It has an interesting
ending.

John L. Wynstra
Apartment 9-G,
43-10 Kissena Blvd., Flushing, N.Y., 11355
(allegra,delftcc,cmcl2,columbia,philabs)!phri!bc-cis!john

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 05:11:36 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus)

>   I did finish Dying Inside, by Robert Silverberg, and got rid of
>it soon after. I couldn't stand the pity-me character who abused a
>wonderful gift unitl it disappeared. A goldplated sl*meball is
>still a sl*meball, and that's what the main character was.

Far be it for me to take a contrary position, but Marina completely
misses the point.  Who says that telepathy HAS to be a wonderful
gift? Who says that telepaths have to be proud of their gift?

Dying Inside is the modern Midas.  Everyone wants to be inside the
head of others, and never understand that this is a two edged sword.
Midas got his wish, that everything he touched became the purest of
gold.  And was therefore ruined, for everything that he cared for
was lost to him.  The same with Dying Inside.  Silverberg gives his
character mankind's gift, and shows that it isn't nearly the
wonderful toy it is cracked up to be.

Remember, when you read someone's mind, you get everything --
including the folks who think your a rotten son of a bitch.  That is
hard enough on the ego when written or spoken, but imagine the full
force of hate through a direct mind link.  Telepathy isn't
selective.

Dying Inside is a brutally depressing book, and not everyone is
going to like it, but it is one of the few books I find time to
re-read at least once a year (along with Blish's Black Easter,
Moorcock's Behold the Man (a wonderful Easter book), and Bradbury's
Martian Chronicles).  I believe it is Silverbob's best work, and one
of the most emotionally powerful books ever published in the genre.
Definitely not for the 'lived happily ever after' set, though.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 01:12:13 GMT
From: seismo!hpscda!hpfcla!hpcnoe!jason@RUTGERS.EDU (Jason Zions)
Subject: Re: The BIG U

_The_Big_U_ may be more than brilliant satire.

My older brother attended Boston University from '78 to '82. I had
occasion to visit him. The Megaversity environment is surprisingly
like that of Warren Towers, 700 Commonwealth Ave, otherwise known as
The Zoo.

Three residential towers, with several monolithic floors below. "Tar
City" between the towers. Furniture going out windows. The Zoo
didn't have the "Big Wheen" neon sign, but it did have the huge
Citgo sign. Someone really did send a burning christmas tree up and
down in an elevator. BU even suffered through a garbage strike or
two.

Since I visited during some of the worst of it at 700 Comm Ave, I
was really struck by some of the similarities.

I was also struck by the chapter containing the acid trip
description. The way his writing flowed from the concrete,
reality-based description he'd used all along into the totally
free-floating trip was amazingly real; at least, it matches my own
memories of the way trips happened.

All in all, a terrific book. At all costs, ignore the front and back
covers; the cover art is exploitive and unrelated to the book, and
the back blurb is, like most back blurbs, wretched.

Has the Neal Stephenson written anything else? Please let me know by
e-mail!

Jason Zions
Hewlett-Packard Corp.
Colorado Networks Division
3404 E. Harmony Road
Mail Stop 102
Ft. Collins, CO  80525
{known_world}!hplabs!hpfcla!hpcndm!jason
jason%hpcndm@hplabs.HP.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Apr 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #164
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Apr 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #164
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 164

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Good SF Movies (10 msgs) &
                         Japanimation (5 msgs) &
                         Influences (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 02:30:36 GMT
From: moss!cbosgd!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes:
>But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?

I would like to nominate Ursula Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven.  I
saw it on TV, don't know if it was a movie or a "made for TV movie",
but I had read the book some years before, and the book was one of
the truly scary things I've ever read (beats Steven King drek all
hollow (aaagh! duck! who left the gas on? flame-broiled, coming
up!)).  The movie was very respectful of the book's plot, had great
visual effects (conveyed the depopulation of the earth by a family
gathered around a table, with most of them covered with cobwebs, for
example), pretty good music, and was every bit as scary as the book,
even knowing exactly how it was going to come out.

That's my $0.02.

Kent Paul Dolan
UUCP  :  kent@xanth.UUCP
         ...{sun,cbosgd,harvard}!xanth!kent
CSNET :  kent@odu.csnet
ARPA  :  kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu
Voice :  (804) 587-7760
USnail:  P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Va 23501-1559

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 23:34:26 GMT
From: seismo!isis!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes:
>But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?

There are so many types of SF that this could be broken down
endlessly.  It all depends on what kind of mood you are in at the
time. If you're talking intelligent movies, I have to agree with
you for your choice of The Quiet Earth.  Another good intelligent
movie is my choice: The Brother from Another Planet.

You could also get into the really technical movies, the action
movies, the horror movies, etc.  The list would be virtually
endless.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 03:53:32 GMT
From: brianr@tekig4.tek.com (Brian Rhodefer)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

In the category of Hard Science Fiction, may I nominate the film,
"The Andromeda Strain"?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 19:23:12 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

Yeah, I have to agree on _Brother From Another Planet_- I thought at
first it was going to be mindlessly stupid, but it was great!  I
loved the two "Immigration Cops (alien ones, that is)"

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 00:57:14 GMT
From: alainew@tekcae.tek.com (Alaine Warfield)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" is a great movie, mostly on the
intellectual level.  It describes a world in which man's space
defenses have backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to go
blind.  I was surprised to find that the book was written in the
40's or 50's as it has so much insight in the problems facing us
today.

The movie is British and is extremely faithful to the book, which
makes the movie about 4 hours long but definitely worth it.

I've been trying to see all of the movies mentioned in the theme
from Rock Horror Picture Show, and some of them are quite good
including "Day the Earth Stood Still" and marginally "When Worlds
Collide".

p.s. I looked through the credits for Jeanette Scott and didn't see
her name.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 21:53:02 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

Best movie of the century: BRAZIL. Not to be missed.

sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 13:51:10 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

The Day the Earth Stood Still
Five Million Years to Earth (aka Quatermass and the Pit)
2001:  A Space Odyssey
2010
The Andromeda Strain

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 06:08:18 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Back to the Future Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

>One of the very best science fiction films I have ever seen (in
>fact, the best) is "Brazil." I couldn't believe that "Back to the
>Future," which is just fluff, beat it out for the Hugo last year.
>It just goes to show what people consider "good," I suppose.

It depends on what is being judged in the award.  Is it "Best SF in
a movie" or "Best movie based on SF?"

Back to the Future wasn't great SF.  Although time travel stories
are rarely consistent, BTTF really blew it by using both the
"alternate reality" and "change the past, change the present"
schemes for time travel.

But it was a superb movie with an SF theme.  Well directed, acted,
paced and acted, and written well to let the audience members enjoy
themselves.  It attained its goal, as a movie, superbly.  Probably
the best F/SF comedy ever made, although Ghostbusters is good
competition.

Brazil was also superb, particularly in direction and set design.
So it is a very hard choice -- Brazil or the best SF comedy ever
made.  The popular choice doesn't surprise me, and it is a tougher
question than you suggest.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 03:33:03 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

   Just a plug for a couple of SF film favorites of mine, ones I
haven't seen mentioned yet.

   1) RESURRECTION - Ellen Burstyn plays a woman who dies briefly
(her heart stops) after a car accident, and gradually discovers she
has acquired the power to heal others (and herself) from her
experience. Borderline SF in that the faith-healing theme seems
religious, but the film gives it a more naturalistic
(psychokinesis?) treatment than that. Truly excellent movie, highly
recommended.
   2) RED DAWN - Mainly I include this to annoy the Politically
Correct among us, but it is a good film. Ignore the occasional
flag-waving, and enjoy some good acting in the service of an
exciting and sometimes moving story.

   Sorry, no space operas; you guys already know all the good space
operas.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 18:23:51 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Good SF Movies

About good SF movies: Ever see Brazil?  I'm sure a lot of you have
aand will agree with me that it was a very good movie.  It was very
funny but also had a lot to say about society.  The imagery was
great.  Well, I don't want to spoil it for you - go see it!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 14:29:14 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

     The sad truth is, I haven't been able to see any of the better
high quality cinema works coming out of Japan.  The closest I've
come so far is to see Robotech episodes on TV.  The real cinema work
is supposed to be even better.  I suppose it's a problem that North
American people are simply too closed minded.  Let's see what we
have had: There was the Lord of the Rings semi-fiasco, and then the
gruesome if-it-doesn't-make-you-puke-it's-no-good overtoned Heavy
Metal (yes, I know it wasn't all that bad, but the attitude was
there).  The Beatles Yellow Submarine was fantastic, but not what
people would normally accept as SF (an interesting question of why
people draw the lines they do).  I never bothered to try to see the
Transformers Movie.

Cheers!

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 00:17:36 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

sds5044@ritcv.UUCP () writes:
>Here are some questions:
>1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ?

   What is "Summer Macross 84?"  I've heard of "Megazone 2-3" and
"Robotech--The Movie" and "Battleiod", but nothing under this name.

>2. Does anybody know about the GEMMA WARS video?

   What is "Gemma Wars"?

>3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now.

   I haven't found anything aside from the Robotech books.

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 22:26:02 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree)
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

1.  Like Jim I have never heard of "Summer Macross 84".  I have
heard of the Macross Movie (or Macross, the movie), and the others
that he mentioned.  I have heard that there is supposed to be a
Robotech movie sometime.  I have also heard that there are supposed
to be new episodes of Robotech coming out sometime dealing with what
happens to Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes after the first series.

2.  I don't know about "Gemma Wars" but I have heard of a movie
called "Gemma Tyson"(sp?).  I think it was about a bunch of people
with psychic powers (mostly telekineses), that have to battle some
evil guy with really nasty psychic powers.  I believe this was
"Gemma Tyson" but I may have my titles mixed up.  It was a while ago
that I saw it.

3.  Other than the Robotech books there are a bunch of Star Blazers
books floating around someplace (as a matter of fact they are
realeasing a Star Blazers comic book series, and it may be out
already.  I'm not really sure).  Someone I know has a bunch of books
on the Star Blazers (actually they are all in Japanese and deal with
the whole Yamato saga).  One of them had a cell from one of the
Yamato movies in it.  Other than those I am not sure of any specific
books, although I am pretty sure there are some.

Patrick Deupree

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 18:52:21 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Japanimation comprehensive lists

Hello:
   Well, after the academic year is over (May), I'll be posting a
comprehensive list of all the Japanese animations movies that was
shown in Japan during the years of 1985 and 1986.  I think this
might be of use to some avid Japanimation fans out there, and might
give you a handle on what percentage of Japanimation haven't made it
to the U.S.
   I also plan to make a comprehensive plot summary of _Nausicaa_of_
_the_Valley_of_the_Wind (the original of the bastardized version you
might've seen as _Warriors_of_the_Wind).  I do this since I've heard
that 1) the bastardized version leaves out many crucial scenes (oh
horror!) which distort the story entirely, and 2) many of who have
seen the original saw it in Japanese without subtitles.  I was
aghast at this since this is one of my alltime favorite movies and I
cringe at the thought that some who have seen it didn't get the
entire story right.  I have the original on tape, I speak Japanese
fluently (being Japanese :-) ), and I have the "comic-book"/sketches
done by the creator of the movie (Shun Miyazaki), so I don't think
I'll make many mistakes in detail.
   So why am I saying this right now?: well, talking to a
Japanimation fan on the phone made me realize that some of you might
not be living near your computer during the summer (especially
college people - like me).  So if you like, I'll send the two
summaries to you USmail or email if email me your address or your
address on any major network (if you're gonna be on a computer
without Usenet during the summer).  Hey what's 22cents worth?  Well,
I would like to be compensated for the 22cents by a letter
explaining about anything about the Japanimation circle here in the
States.  I'm a relative newcomer to the U.S. Japanimation world here
and would like any tips or help you can give me.  Help me out,
please and I'll gladly send you the two (and any more comprehensive
stuff I can make) stuff.
   I'll be at the address listed below for now, during the summer,
and throughout the next academic year.  So please, help out a
newcomer!!

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)
phone during summer: (215)544-5349
UUCP:  {seismo!bpa,ihnp4!bpa,rutgers!liberty}!swatsun!hirai

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 15:51:30 GMT
From: kathyli@miro.berkeley.edu (The Rev. Mom)
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>sds5044@ritcv.UUCP () writes:
>>Here are some questions:
>>1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ?
>     What is "Summer Macross 84?"  I've heard of "Megazone 2-3" and
>"Robotech--The Movie" and "Battleiod", but nothing under this name.

    Summer Macross 84 is the original Japanese movie-version of
Macross the now-famous first segment of Robotech.  As far as I know
there is no plan for using the Macross movie in anything that
Harmony Gold is going to put out.  Macek has said that they have the
rights, there's just no place where it fits into the RT continuity,
which is really a shame since it's such a beautiful movie.  I've
never heard anything about a sequel to Macross other than the
loosely connected Orguss series.

>>3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now.
>
>     I haven't found anything aside from the Robotech books.

     Well, the anime's available if you're looking for it.  Comic
book stores seem to have picked up on the Japanese stuff since the
Robotech boom (which is sort of dying down now).  Local CFO chapters
could probably tell you where to find stuff, as well.

     I know that there are going to be several translations of
Japanese comic books and Japanese-drawn comics coming out on the
shelves soon.  (Eric want to help out here?).  Eclipse is putting
out Mai the Psychic Girl, and First is doing Lone Wolf and Cub.  You
might want to look into these titles.

Kathy Li
...ihnp4!ucbvax!miro!kathyli
kathyli@miro.Berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 15:50:47 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!watdcsu!shen1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Under the influence of Star Wars

>Any movie buffs who can help find other sources for scenes of the
>film (especially cinematic sources; content sources are plentiful),
>please post.

Some of the X-wing/Tie fighter dogfights were lifted directly from
documentary footage of The Battle of Britain.  The models were made
to move to duplicate sequences of the film *exactly*.

keith.
ihnp4!watmath!watdcsu!shen1

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 87 12:48:46 EST
From: Bill Sommerfeld <wesommer@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Wars Influences

"Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cci.bbn.com> writes:
>Personally, I've always been struck by the parallels to the movie
>version of "The Wizard of Oz".  When the good guys hide in their
>ship, overpower some stormtroopers, and then come out wearing their
>costumes, I keep expecting one of them to try hiding his tail, and
>the line of stormtroopers to break into a chorus of "Yo-ee-oh.
>Yoh-oh."  The Jawas can be seen as Munchkins, C3PO as the Tin Man,
>R2D2 as Toto, Darth Vader as the Wicked Witch of the West, Obi-wan
>as Glinda, etc.  "Pay no attention to those droids behind the
>curtain.  They're not the droids you want."

When I was in high school, I listened to a comedy radio show on a
local college station (WCWP).  One of the regular pieces was a
serialized bizarre combination of Star Wars and the Wizard of Oz,
entitled "Serial Woz" (or something like that)... it had the "good
guys" of Star Wars going through the land of Oz.  They mapped
Chewbacca to Toto (and kept feeding him Milk Bones), and did a lot
of other completely outrageous things.  Somehow or other, the two
stories managed to hang together.

Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Apr 87 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #165
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Apr 87 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #165
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 165

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 04:07:15 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: SnobCon

From: dee@CCA.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake)
>The present system provides relatively little bias in terms of the
>lower pre-registration rate and that is justified in that it is
>much easier and more efficient to spend known amounts of money in
>hand and much harder and less efficient to spend unknown amounts of
>money that may appear during a weekend.  Consider how few at the
>door registrations there could have been if Boston had been hit by
>a blizzard.

I traveled 400 miles in 10 degree weather to get to Boskone. Now I'm
told that I am unwelcome because, essentially, I purchased nothing
at the art show.

>>It would be best if NESFA had a good idea just how many people
>>would want to attend at each possible membership price.  They
>>could then set the price to whatever 2000 people are willing to
>>pay. ...
>
>I admit that my initial response was too simplistic.  Actually I
>have no personal problem with monetizing peoples desires but there
>are a lot of other factors involved.  Presumably there is an amount
>of money that would make the Sheraton Boston happy to have a
>Boskone like Boskone 24 every weekend.  Presumably there is an
>amount of money that would make most of the people who did the work
>to put on Boskone 24 happy to do it again, even if they thought
>that most of the attendees being attracted were *ss h*l*s.

Does NESFA **really** believe this??

>Many people consider the quality of Boskones art show to be a major
>feature.  Currently this is more or less self polcing as Boskone
>charges a fixed price for display area and no percentage fee.  Thus
>those whose art sells for high prices have an economic incentive to
>return and those whose art doesn't lose money.  With a more than
>factor of 2 reduction in attendence coming up, biasing attendence
>towards those interested in purchasing art seems like a reasonable
>way to keep up the quality of the show for the benefit of all
>attendees.

What about those of us more interested in panels? Wouldn't those
participating in panels/talks be more pleased with Boskone if they
knew that they had an audience?

>>>> I for one am tired of being made to feel guilty for not
>>>> offering to help out.
>>> I don't know how anyone can make you feel guilty if you are not
>>> so inclined.  Most people who work on the convention do so
>>> because they enjoy doing it, in one way or another, rather than
>>> because of some feeling of guilt.
>>I do not feel guilty.  I do feel unwelcome.  I am now told I am
>>not
>Glad to hear that you misstated yourself and are not being made to
>feel guilty.

The point is not answered.

>>allowed to attend the next con for any amount of money because I
>>did
>
>Hold on, as I have mentioned several times, you can buy a Boskone
>25 membership (and membership in all future Boskones put on by
>NESFA) right now by buying a Boskone Life Membership for $360.
>This is 20 times the most recent preregistration rate ($18).  Even
>though pre-registrations are not being accepted, Life Memberships
>still are.  As soon as the new preregistration rate, no doubt
>considerably higher, is approved, the Life Membership rate will
>automatically jump to 20 times that unless NESFA votes some further
>change in its rules.

Can it be guaranteed that Life Membership requests will still be
accepted?

>>NOT help out at the last one.  It was never my understanding that
>>I was supposed to.  If someone enjoys it, more power to them, but
>>I enjoy panel sessions, buying books, and conversation.  That is
>>what I paid for and that is what I got.  ...
>
>It is indeed the case that many of those who attended Boskone 24
>are unwelcome at future Boskones.  But you sound like the sort of
>person that is desired.  On the hand, most of the attendees of
>Boskone 24 are probably of the type that NESFA would like back, but
>most of them is too many to fit at what we are likely to get as
>facilities.  It was recognized that these policies would eliminate
>many desireable people.
>
>If you are willing to do so, I suggest you try to find someone in
>the preferred categories who knows you personally and see if they
>can get you in.

Does anyone else find this last statement as offensive as I do?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 15:18:44 GMT
From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Weather at SnobCon

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>At Boskone 24, the temperature was below freezing with a brisk 10 -
>20 mph wind a lot of the time. Walking back and forth between
>hotels in such weather is not my idea of fun. Imagine walking back
>and forth several times a days between two hotels in the middle of
>winter. Going out is a major production.  You got put on your
>overcoat, scarf, hat, overboots, etc. I suspect that going back and
>forth between 20 degree F and 80 degree F temperatures that often
>may not be all that healthy.

<*** Sarcasm warning! ***>

   Yeah, that's why all of us people who live up in the northern
parts are so darned unhealthy.  I mean, imagine attended a large,
sprawling university during the winter months.  One must constantly
be wrapping up, entering sub-zero (sub-freezing you say?  Hah! I
scoff at you!) weather, walking a mile or so to an overheated
building, unbundling, etc., then repeating the whole thing 50
minutes later.  It's no *wonder* anybody of any merit is from
California.  (Incidentally, Arnie Schwarzenegger, the absolute
*picture* of bad health, went to school in Wisconsin, the poor
fellow.)

Joel P.
uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster
ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu
BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 23:00:19 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

>>>7) No one under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
>>>...We will make exceptions for: members of known SF clubs, gophers.
>>Why wasn't this ever instituted?  I don't think I would have
>>initiated a convention *without* this to begin with!  Stupid move
>>on NESFA's part.
> Yep.  Undesireable, all right.  I showed up a lot of other
> scumballs...

It would seem that you did not cause trouble, based on what you say.
I don't disagree, but I am thinking of the legal ramifications of
being responsible for minors.  Who is if they have no legal guardian
at the con?  NESFA?  If so, why should they be the ones held
accountable?  I just think that it would be better for the hotel if
NESFA could guarantee this.

Anyhow, someone recently pointed out to me that NESFA has *NOT* made
any declaration as to what is going to happen next year.  Lest we
jump to conclusions (I know I have), perhaps we should hold
discussion until an official NESFA announcement.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 87 00:41:12 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Boskone

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU>
> From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU
>>> As for reducing membership, the obvious and non-discriminatory
>>> solution is to auction off the 2000 or however many memberships.
>> Wrong-o!  It discriminates against people who have no spare
>> money, like myself.
>Well, given that 4000 people want to attend and only 2000 will be
>allowed to, due to forces beyond the control of NESFA, SOME method
>must be used.  Money is the most fair way of measuring one's
>seriousness about attending.  For one thing, any other method means

Huh?  Maybe you have a CHOICE about what you spend your money on,
but I don't think I can choose an overly expensive con over food and
still be healthy enough to attend.  Regular con rates are enough to
put me in debt.  No matter how seriously I want to attend, I just
can't GET any more spending money, and if you base a con's
membership rates on auction procedures, I WON'T be able to go, no
matter how serious I am about it.  I guess it's just my tough luck
I'm not independently wealthy like some others.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 87 10:30:17 PDT
From: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Arrrgh!  Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?!

  First off, let me say that I am not now nor never have I been a
member of NESFA.  However, I have assisted the organizing committee
of a professional engineering conference and _do_ know what a pain
in the tush it is to get one's organizational act sufficiently
together to handle even a couple hundred people.  My heart goes out
to the organizers of Boskone, having to deal with an order of
magnitude larger.  My own estimation is that the Law of Conservation
of Misery dictates that the heartburn factor goes up by the square,
if not the cube.
  That out of the way, I'd like to comment on the megabytes of
megablather that are chewing up cpu cycles and disk sectors on the
net.
  My initial reaction to the whole mess is a pox on all of your
houses!  Given the appropriate hardware, I'd time warp the lot into
some planet's stone age and tell them to evolve into more
responsible life forms ;-).

Ms. Shoshanna Green opines:
>When you offer solutions in that manner, you are implicitly
>claiming that you know better how to run the con than the people
>who are blind enough not to see such an obvious answer.  If you
>don't know anything about how to run a con, stop acting as though
>you think you do.

  AAAAARGGGGH!  Ignoring the dubious syntax, which I put down to
either the heat of the moment or the lack of proof reading, implicit
in Ms Green's comment is the assertion that _only_ those who run the
con are allowed to make suggestions on how the con is run.  By
extension, only those running the government should be allowed to
make suggestions on how the government should be run.  Hmmm...  I
guess we can just chuck those first ten amendments to the
Constitution and scratch the first Tuesday following the first
Monday in November off the calendar, since we don't need to hear
from the rabble.
  Leapfrogging to another point of contention, a great hoo-hah has
been made about the _impossibility_ of holding a multi-hotel con.
Ever been to SIGGRAPH?  Or SHARE?  SIGGRAPH is _easily_ an order of
magnitude larger than Boskone, in terms of attendence alone.  SHARE
has roughly 5000 attendees and it holds TWO major meetings a year
and TWO minor meetings, as well.  The last SHARE I attended was
spread over FOUR different hotels, so the multi-venue option is not
totally without merit.  Boston in February?  Ugh!  Maybe February is
the wrong month to hold the con, then.  Just a suggestion, but I
suppose that puts me on Ms. Green's list of
know-nothing-say-nothings.
  Look, Boskone is NESFA's party and you can cry if you want to.  If
they _don't_ want to engage in the monstrous logistical hassle of
dealing with multiple hotels (and I don't blame them one whit), they
don't have to.  If they want to restrict their con to attendees with
red hair whose last name is "Beeblebrox," then, I suppose, within
the constitutional limits enunciated by recent Supreme Court
decisions about private clubs, that is their right.  If NESFA
doesn't want to put on the type of con they've put on in the past
(or what some _think_ has been put on in the past -- two entirely
different things) or deal with 2**n kilofen because it is too much
hassle (or the insurance premium is too high, which is more likely),
there's nothing that says that they _have_ to.  They're the ones
doing the work.  They're the ones who take the flames from the
hotels and the lawsuits from the offended.
  What irks me (as an only slightly biased observer) is people
saying something is IMPOSSIBLE when it may simply be inconvenient or
unpleasant.  "Can't" isn't the same thing as "don't want to."
Perhaps Boskone needs professional management.  Perhaps I should
shut up. and finish rewriting that C language I/O library that has
been giving me heartburn for the last week or so.  Probably both,
though the latter is more likely.
  A note to the moderator of this group: How about a mutually
consented moratorium on postings on this subject for a while, till
everyone cools off a bit?  Maybe a week or so?

Steve Lamont
San Diego Supercomputer Center

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 10:09:22 GMT
From: harvard!hscfvax!spem@RUTGERS.EDU (G. T. Samson)
Subject: LASTCon 3/4/* - what caused its demise?

I remember attending a relaxicon in Loudonville, NY (my hometown),
known as LASTCon (Latham/Albany/Schenectady/Troy-Con).  I attended
the third incarnation of this con, LASTCon T'ree, and people I know
attended the fourth incarnation.

I heard rumors at Genericon (a con sponsored by Rensselaer Polytech)
that LASTCons no longer took place because the concom had lost its
hotel, the Americana (a really studly hotel, all you fen out
there... imagine, 4 floors and ~*16* elevators!).

Can anyone tell me what caused the demise of this fun relaxicon?
Hard facts only, please, and perhaps to prevent another SnobCon
proliferation of articles, these facts should be MAILED to me
instead of posted... I'll summarize to the net if interest exists.

Any responses will be greatly appreciated.

G. T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU
gts@borax.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 21:58:11 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: SnobCon

jsm@vax1.UUCP (Jon Meltzer) writes:
>dee@CCA.CCA.COM writes:
>>If you are willing to do so, I suggest you try to find someone in
>>the preferred categories who knows you personally and see if they
>>can get you in.
>
>Does anyone else find this last statement as offensive as I do?

How offensive do you find it?  I think it stinks.

Boskone is making these restrictions not only to cut down on the
numbers of people attending the con, but also to focus the remaining
number in order to create a certain type of con, in a certain
atmosphere.  That's fine; more power to them.

But I worry about the kinds of people they're going to attract,
especially with the above statements going around; I find it
difficult to believe that the concom really does prefer hangers-on
to boozers (not much of an improvement either way, in my opinion).
(Please: dee@CCA.CCA.COM doesn't say he/she AGREES with this method
of gaining entrance, so let's not start bickering AGAIN!)

If a large number of people manage to get memberships to Boskone
based on their ability to suck up to those in the "preferred
categories", the con is going to end up packed with people who may
very well not have any more interesting or endearing ability than
that of sucking up.  Oh joy.

You know, every time I read an article about why what Boskone is
doing is fine and dandy, I feel like cheering.  I think they have
good reason for what they're doing, and I think that the idea behind
the restrictions is of a very nice con indeed.  But I have my doubts
about whether or not these particular restrictions, and the system
they're based on, are going to do what NESFA wants them to.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Apr 87 1000-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #166
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Apr 87 1000-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #166
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 166

Today's Topics:

                   Miscellaneous - Gardner Fox &
                                   Authors in Interviews &
                                   Influences (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 87 21:33 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Gardner Fox remembered...

The following is reprinted without permission from the most recent
issue of the Comics Journal, but is of interest to SF fans as well.


(deleted)
------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 06:33:09 GMT
From: obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: SF Authors in Interview

bt@ssl-macc (Brian Thompstone) writes:
>It has been said that plots are not your strong point. [interviewer]
>
>Yes, well I've never been very good at plots. But then, in science
>fiction it isn't really necessary.
> [A C Clarke]
>
>ACC has just given his own profession a bad name.

No he hasn't.  Strength at plotting has not been really necessary
for a long time in most fiction, not just science fiction.
Antiplotting and non-plotting can be found in mainstream literature
if you look around.

There's several things that can make for a good book.  It's always
great, for example, to read beautiful prosaists like Dylan Thomas or
Ray Brad- bury, but dry and/or klunky writing styles don't in
themselves sink an author--consider Eugene O'Neill or Isaac Asimov.

And the same can be said for just about any other criterion you care
to name.

Of course, some genres, like mysteries and thrillers, generally
depend very tightly on plotting.

>2nd thoughts: perhaps he said "may not always be necessary", since
>in the same interview he he admitted to a preference for machines
>and 'science and engineering discoveries' over people; so he's
>talking about good old- fashioned 'hard SF'.

Right.  You're catching on.  If people get "X" out of a book, and
they really like getting "X", it doesn't matter to them what else is
missing.  Of course, most of us aren't this simple-minded about
reading, and the best of books work on several levels, but I think
you get my idea.

Kenn Barry explained to me an instance of this earlier.  I don't
have one ounce of googawphilia, and it never even occurred to me
that other people had it, let alone in quantity.  But as soon as he
mentioned it as a criterion, I suddenly understood why so many
people liked _Ringworld_.  "Oh, so it was the big ring? Well, sure,
if you say so."

It's like, I'm no fan of endless puns, but I know there are people
who are hopelessly addicted to them.  Fine.  Let them suffer.

Of course, there are some points of view that I wonder about:

   I did not like that picture; it was too improbable. That the
   scoundrel kidnaps the pretty heroine is all right, that happens
   all the time. That the bridge collapses when their carriage is
   going over it is improbable, but not at all impossible.... That
   the scoundrel is killed, while the heroine remains precariously
   suspended over the precipice is even more improbable, yet I am
   willing to accept it. I am even willing to accept that at that
   moment Tom Mix is coming by on his white horse to save her. But
   that at that moment there was also a man with a camera on the
   spot to photograph the whole scene, that is more than I can
   stand for.
      Niels Bohr

>Unfortunately, as discussed under sf v sci_fi, Mr. Public doesnt
>know that Arthur is referring to a sub_genre.

Mr Public can't even bother to read books in the first place, so
don't worry about it too much.  Read what you like.  I read comic
books and math books in no small quantity, and most people don't
know beans about either.  I hardly notice.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 14:55:24 GMT
From: seismo!sun!texsun!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael
From: Todd)
Subject: Re: Under even more influences

From: Marty Cohen <mcohen@nrtc.arpa>
> 1. In the 1950's, the Disney studios created a cartoon (taken from
> an earlier book) called "Pigs is Pigs". In it, a railroad
> stationmaster is left with two guinea pigs. They are cute, furry,
> squeak, and reproduce at a tremendous rate. At the end, the
> stationmaster gets rid of them by placing them on a train and
> sending them down the line.
>Remind you of a well-known episode of a SF TV series?

I think the original story was by a man named Ellis Butler.  I
haven't read the book, but I remember reading in David Gerrold's
"The Making of The Trouble With Tribbles" that he was inspired by
the story.

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 87 01:41:35 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Hyperdriving under the influence...

From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Has anyone ever compiled a list of all of the elements of STAR WARS
>tha are lifted virtually intact from other sources?  I offer the
>following example:
>
>In the early Seventies, Jack Kirby had a complex interconnecting
>series of comic book stories that seem to parallel SW very closely.
>There was Darkseid, who even LOOKED like Darth Vader, who

   The New Gods "paralleled" Star Wars?  You've *got* to be
kidding!!!  Only on the level of there being highly defined
good-guys and bad-guys.  Both story sets were based on a long
tradition of Saturday matinee B grade movies which in turn take
their roots back at least as far as the Bible and mythology.  As far
as who could be taken as having ripped off from the other, I believe
Star Wars' first screening predates Kirby's New Gods, but when it
comes down to it, I expect that Kirby's work was *not* taken from
Star Wars either.  The New Gods series series had a fairly long
gestation from what I gather.  The first drawing were done while he
was at Marvel, but the whole concept gelled later.

   Kirby's work and talent is so widely recognized that anyone who
accused him of ripping anyone else off is off his rocker.

   Besides, Darseid, apart from his dark color doesn't recognize
(whoops, I mean *resemble*) Darth Vader at all.  He wears no armour.
He doesn't have to.  If anybody resembles Darth Vader, it's Doctor
Doom from the *much* earlier Fantastic Four (yes, Kirby's work
again).

>also happened to be the father of the hero, Orion.  They even had a
>mysterious power called "The Source" which was called upon from
>time to time.  Obi Wan Kenobi was replaced by a character called
>Highfather.  It has bothered me for years that while George Lucas

   Highfather's role doesn't correspond to Obi Wan at all.  High
Father was the leader.  Obi Wan is portrayed pretty much a "just
another Jedi."  He was one of the *last* Jedi, but there is nothing
in the storyline that portrays him as the greatest of Jedi or of
exceptional ranking among them.  In fact, there hasn't been anything
in the way of material on the Jedi social order.  Clearly Obi Wan
treated Yoda with the respect due to a superior, if only in the
field of teaching.

   Darth Vader was Obi Wan's pupil and it seems, something of a
failure.

>rakes in money by the truckload for stolen ideas, Jack Kirby can't
>make a cent off those very ideas.

   Wellll, I don't think Jack Kirby is starving exactly.  DC
apparently dropped the New Gods series due to sales (their
position).  Jack doesn't feel the sales were that bad.  Having tried
to buy the various issues as they were coming out, I can say that
they were hard to find in Toronto.  The book buyers and magazine
handlers up here really don't know what they're doing in the SF
field.  Can you believe that you can't find "Robotech Art I" at all?

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 03:31:48 GMT
From: cmcl2!hp-pcd!uoregon!stevev@RUTGERS.EDU (Steve VanDevender)
Subject: Re: Under even more influences

All of this talk of how story ideas appear over and over again
reminds me of Spider Robinson's "Melancholy Elephants."  What I'd
really like to see is whether anyone will say "but someone wrote a
really similar story to that a long time ago."

I suspect that something similar to the "Law of Fives" (the number 5
is connected with anything if you look hard enough) is at work here:

The Law of Story Similarity:
   Any story can be described to be similar to any other as long
   as you give the shortest possible plot summary.

A corollary might be that the shorter the plot summary you give for
a story, the more stories can be declared similar to it.

After all, doesn't "protagonist overcomes obstacle" describe
practically every story ever written?  Why doesn't someone write
something _original_ that doesn't use that scheme?  :-)

Steve VanDevender
uoregon!drizzle!stevev
stevev@oregon1.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Apr 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #167
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #167
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 167

Today's Topics:

               Books - Eddings (3 msgs) & Friedman &
                       Hambly & Tiptree & 
                       Humorous SF (2 msgs) &
                       Playing Fair in Novels (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 19:43:58 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!watnot!jrmartin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Belgariad: room for improvements

Hello.  It's me again writing about the Belgariad.

I've been no less than amused by the lame criticism's I've heard
about the Belgariad recently.  I fully accept that there are some
people who perhaps did not like the series, and they are quite
entitled to their opinion just as I am.

However, it seems that after I put up my first letter complimenting
Eddings on the work, certain people took it as a personal challenge.
To begin with, to say that the Belgariad was completely predictable
was more than interesting.  It's very easy to say that you knew what
was going to happen every step of the way after you've read the
book, but I would have been more interested to hear them correctly
predict the various surprises BEFORE they had read them.  I am quite
certain that I could ask many questions of the omniscient readers
who claim they guessed everything in advance which they could still
not answer.  Also, if Eddings is so predictable, how about having
these literary prophets read "The Guardians of the West" and tell us
all what is going to happen in the next four books.  It is my guess
that these people will become quite silent when they're prediction
abilities are put to the test.

Another minor point was their complaint that "everybody got
married".  This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read the book.
It would have been a lot more surprising (and unrealistic) if nobody
got married.  Look around you.  Getting married isn't that uncommon.

I could go on, but I am quite sure that I know where our prophets
real problem with the Belgariad lies.  It was too enjoyable.  It was
a good book and the good guys won.  It wasn't depressing.  It seems
a common trait of our "literary experts" to only like books which
are so depressing as to be insanity.  These people undoubtedly
worship the likes of Margaret Atwood.  Their test of an author is to
see how badly the author can make things turn out for the good guys.
Well, I hope they enjoy that kind of stuff ... after all, it takes
SO MUCH talent to do that.  Atwood's books are SO diverse.  (I think
she even used different names in one of them.)  She must be a fan of
Thomas Hardy who has proved once and for all that you only really
need one idea per lifetime and it doesn't even have to be a good
one.

Anyway, if it doesn't offend our prophets too much, I am going to
once again compliment Eddings on his work.  "The Guardians of the
West" is spectacular.  I'm sure we'll find a few who disagree, but
they'll be quite in the minority.  Again.

JRM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 00:54:56 GMT
From: johne@crash.cts.com (John Cissna)
Subject: Re: eddings (SPOILER)

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>crew@decwrl.UUCP (Roger Crew) writes:
>>Having EVERYONE married off at the end didn't help, either.
>
>He didnt quite marry off quite EVERYONE.  He saved Silk for the
>second series.

Don't forget Mandeloren didn't get maried off either.  Also what
about Beldin.  Who is he going to get hunched with, I mean hitched
with?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 01:23:30 GMT
From: johne@crash.cts.com (John Cissna)
Subject: Re: Belgariad: room for improvements

jrmartin@watnot.UUCP (James Martin) writes:
>Also, if Eddings is so predictable, how about having these literary
>prophets read "The Guardians of the West" and tell us all what is
>going to happen in the next four books.  It is my guess that these
>people will become quite silent when they're prediction abilities
>are put to the test.

I just read the book.  What I think they are refering to is that
Eddings leaves fairly obvious hints.  He doesn't tell us how it is
going to happen which is good.  Also I think that Guardians of the
West is more elusive than the previous series.

>Another minor point was their complaint that "everybody got
>married".  This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read the
>book.  It would have been a lot more surprising (and unrealistic)
>if nobody got married.  Look around you.  Getting married isn't
>that uncommon.

Very good point.  Also every one didn't.  Mandeloren, Silk, and what
about good old Beldin that cool dude!

>Anyway, if it doesn't offend our prophets too much, I am going to
>once again compliment Eddings on his work.  "The Guardians of the
>West" is spectacular.  I'm sure we'll find a few who disagree, but
>they'll be quite in the minority.  Again.

I hate to do this to you but, I liked the book.  I am sorry I can't
dissagre with you, but I can't please everybody.  Most of the people
I talk to actually liked his books.  The only complaint that I have
in his books is that he at times overuses certain phrases, such as.
"Silk your a bad man!"  In real life this happens all the time.  But
I don't like it all that much in books.  The one thing I like about
Eddings is his work isn't a Brain twister.  If you want to read a
fantasy book you want to lose yourself in it.  Not try to get a
headache from figuring out plot twists an such.  That's what mystery
books are for.  Also I you have read "The Guardians of the West",
you will note that everything is not pink roses for our hero's and
that actual tragedy occurs.

John Cissna
INET:  johne@crash.CTS.COM
UUCP:  {hplabs!hp-sdd,nosc,akgua,sdcsvax}!crash!johne

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 14:18:30 GMT
From: haste#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman and _In Conquest Born_

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach):
>it may be the best piece of Science Fiction published this
>year...The book had me up until 2 in the morning two nights in a
>row trying to get through it.

I don't think In Conquest Born is in serious danger of being the
best book of the year, but it's quite good.  It kept me up *one*
night, till *four* in the morning (which makes great mathematical
sense, if you don't look at it too hard).

The Azeans and the Braxana have been at war for millenia.  The
Azeans are the Good Guys -- peace-loving and egalitarian.  The
Braxana are the Bad Guys -- male-superiority, racial-superiority,
war-for-war's-sake types.  Truces are always broken by the Braxana.

Those stereotypes are true, but they are not the whole truth.  The
Azeans hate the war, but it's been going so long that they're
actually rather comfortable with it.  The Braxana profess racial
superiority, but their definitions of racial acceptability turn out
to be, in some ways, more flexible than those of the Azeans.

At the center of the conflict, and the story, are a man and a woman,
the best that each side has to offer, and deadly enemies.  Both are
admirable.  Neither is very nice.

The book ends with subtle and bitter irony.

ddb@viper.UUCP (David Dyer-Bennet):
>This books is a clear **** (Hi chuq!).  I may award another half
>star after a month or so and another reading.

I'll go along with that.

>I'm stalling, trying to come up with a plot summary for those who
>like such things, but I can't.  Not even an equivalent of "A guy
>with furry feet finds a ring and throws it in a volcano."

On second thought, neither can I.

>Oh, go read the book yourself.

Right.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 04:51:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!mooks@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Barbara Hambly's work.

Has anyone out there read _The_Silent_Tower_ by Barbara Hambly?

Does anyone know anything on the status of _The_Silicon_Mage_ which
is the sequel to this book.

I have read the first book and highly recommend it.  The book deals
with a computer operator working for an extremely high-tech company
who gets dragged into another world through a hole in space time.
The other world is, of course, very magic oriented; while the
protagonist's world is present day earth.  If you have read Hambly's
Darwath Trilogy, you will recognize the basic premise.  The premise
has been used and (in some cases) overused in science-fiction/
fantasy, however once the earth dweller has reached the other world,
the plot has very original and interesting twists which I found very
entertaining.
     The Darwath trilogy (again recommended), while similar in
premise, is very different in plot to _The_Silent_Tower_, and is
worth reading as well.  The_Silent_Tower_, The Darwath trilogy, and
the other book of hers that I have read: Dragonsbane, all, I
believe, have good characters and they are developed into the story
well too.  (I haven't read _The_Ladies_of_ Mandrigyn_, however, I
have heard good things about it as well.)

Sincerely yours,

Scott Whitsitt
{uiucdcs,cepu,ihnp4}!bradley!bucc2!mooks

P.S.: I would appreciate some opinions on Stephen Donaldson's (I
think the title is) _The_Mirror_of_Her_Dreams_ and such...

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 21:37:08 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Tiptree Jr.

>James Tiptree may be fine, and is indeed a bit old, but she's no
>gentleman.

Unfortunately, James Tiptree, Jr. is also *dead*.  As of about last
month.

sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 03:19:46 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: Panshin (was: Re: Funny SF)

From: ted@braggvax.arpa
> Here's some I haven't seen mentioned yet:
> ...
>7) Spider Robinson's "Half an Oaf", in an Analog Annual ten
> or so years ago.  No puns, but it doesn't need them.

I think this was also in _Antinomy_ (sic), which unfortunately was
remaindered soon after it came out (a great book if you can find a
copy of it...).  Many, though not all, of the stories from that
collection were reprinted in _Melancholy_Elephants_.

> 8) Alexi Panshin's Anthony Villers series (hopefully to be
> completed some day...).

Does ANYONE know if Panshin will ever continue/complete the series?
I really enjoyed the first three, and at the end of _Masque_World_,
he mentions the "next" book, _The_Ultimate_Pantograph_, which as far
as I know was never published.  Can anyone tell me more?

jed hartman
{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 87 15:19:28 GMT
From: rph@nancy (Richard Hughey)
Subject: Re: Funny SF

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>howard@pioneer.UUCP (Lauri Howard) writes:
>>And now for something totally different, I'm looking for more
>>funny SF writers along the lines of Sheckley, Tenn, Adams, and
>>Harrison. I have read a couple of Asprin's
>
>Have you ever read anything by Stanislaw Lem? He's a Polish SF
>writer.  Though his themes are usually pretty deep and involve the
>fate of societies, he almost always brings his point across in a
>ridiculously hilarious way by "reductio ad absurdum."

The funniest by far of the Lem books I've read was the Cyberiad,
about two "constructors", who galavant around the universe on
private [robot] construction jobs.  One of the best spots is when
they decide to simulate one of their beasts in a fight against the
evil king, playing around with mathematical phrases for a few pages.
There are 8 or 10 stories about the two constructors in the book.
Tremendously good.

Richard Hughey
Brown University
CSNET:  rph%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net
BITNET:  rph@browncs
{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!brunix!rph

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 19:16:00 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: River and ring worlds (playing fair)

It's been a while since I read Ringworld.  Anyway, I only remember
two differences between Ringworld and The Ringworld Engineers.  In
Ringworld, Niven has Wu jump to the wrong conclusion about the
origin of Ringworld, because he didn't want to bring in the Paks and
the Sea Statue (or whatever).  He thought that it would clutter up
the ending too much.  So that was more or less planned.  The other
difference I can think of was Ringworld not having any caretakers
left on it.  He had to change that when someone pointed out that
Ringworld was not stable.  So that was an error, which he fixed in
the second book.

Was one of these what you were talking about, or did you have
something else in mind?

On a similar line, one of my favorite series is the Amber series, by
Zelazny.  One of the reasons i like it is more or less the reason
you didn't like Ringworld--as the series progresses, and Corwin gets
more data, he finds out that his previous assumptions as to who did
what to whom and why keep changing--rather dramatically.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 07:06:32 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: River and ring worlds (playing fair)

From: ted@braggvax.arpa
> ... I had the distinct impression that both Farmer and Niven
> believed the initial information when the first books were written
> and later changed their minds.  Anyone else feel this way?  It
> ruined _Ringworld Engineers_ for me and I lost all interest in the
> Riverworld series.

You do have a point.  I started to wonder about Ringworld when I
read Protector.  As Niven later realized, he had to reconcile these
two works.  So it was necessary that some things be changed in the
sequel.  I have less sympathy for Farmer.  The last couple of
Riverworld stories were completely haphazard.

I think this is the successful series syndrome in action: a writer
has a pretty good series going, and can't bear to make it end, and
has to stretch it WAY past its limits to keep it going just a few
books longer.  Fred Pohl is in the process of doing this with the
Gateway series right now.

In both these instances, the authors are so caught up in revealing
the wonders of their imaginary universes that they forget that
suspense and mystery are essential to keep the illusion alive.
Making Burton ruler of the Riverworld and Broadhead buddies with the
Hechee is totally unsatisfying, and should never have been done,
since it makes the whole tapestry less interesting.

Louis Wu can have the Ringworld, since (hopefully) there won't be
another sequel :-)

Scott Schwartz
Swarthmore College Computer Science Program
UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz
AT&T: (215)-328-8610

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 19:53:47 GMT
From: seismo!uw70!uw-june!ewan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: River and ring worlds (playing fair)

ted@braggvax.arpa writes:
> The recent postings about Farmer's Riverworld brought to mind a
> pet peeve I had about those books, and with Niven's _Ringworld
> Engineers_.  In both cases, we learn that a lot of what we were
> toldin the first books is false.  What made that especially

Oh boy, in which case you will really *hate* _Down in Flames_, the
unwritten novel by Niven in which *everything* in the Known space
series is false :-)

Does anyone still have this on-line anywhere?

[Moderator's Note: This file is called T:<SFL>DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT in
the archives and is available for anonymous ftp.  If you do not have
access to ftp, please do not request it by mail.]

Ewan Tempero
University of Washington
UUCP:<hub>!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
Internet:ewan@june.cs.washington.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Apr 87 1000-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #168
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 87 1000-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #168
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 168

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 00:34:16 GMT
From: umix!umich!msudoc!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: CruiseCon

oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
>bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau ~) writes:
>>One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is
>>the weekend cruise.
>...
>>I realize it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities, but
>>if you really want to go after a more "mature" crowd, maybe that's
>>an advantage.  Has this been tried before?
>   Sign me up!

Before people get too enthusiastic about this idea...

It has been proposed before - for some similar reasons in fact.  I
refer of course to the infamous "Bermuda Triangle in '88" worldcon
bid. (Wow! Second Place from a record breaking number of votes! Not
bad for a joke bid.)

To be fair the idea has a few advantages.  Here are a few and I'm
sure the clever can think up some more.

1.  Small size (The SS Norway is the largest cruise ship in the
    world. The CruiseCon Bid were planning on using it.  With a
    Membership Limit of under 2000.)
      [In case you're wondering why small size is an advantage -
      CruiseCon was originally proposed amid discussions about how
      6000+ worldcons were unmanageable by most committees and how
      out of country bids had it easy since they only had 1500-2000
      attendees]

2.  Professional Staff - the staff of a cruise ship is trained to do
    many of the things that the ConCom would otherwise have to do
    for itself - like putting out a con newsletter.

3.  Security - Not only do you have a ship crew to do this chore for
    you - most of it is already done physically by the ship.  The
    Crash Proof Con.

4.  Relaxing atmosphere - a cruise ship is a great place to party -
    in fact it's designed for it.

After all of this some of you are asking "Where do I sign?"  Well
before you send in your registration let's look at the other side of
the coin.

[Again the clever could think up a LOT more objections than I'm
listing]

1.  Small Size -  A book could be written about this and other
    articles about the new Boskone have effectively done so. Ill
    just mention that a CruiseCon is physically limited to <2000
    members even more rigidly than holding a con in small hotels is.
    (NO overflow hotels) Just because the Con has to be limited
    doesn't tell how it's going to be done.  You might need a
    similar set of criteria to the ones NESFA has set up for
    Boskone88.
       It is just as well CruiseCon didn't win because the feuds
    that would have erupted over how memberships were passed out
    would have had repersusions in fannish political circles that
    would have probably lasted into the next century. (.not.:-))

2.  Cost - Bernie Verreau said in the original posting, "I realize
    it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities..." I wonder
    if he realizes how much more expensive.  I don't remember the
    exact figures and it would depend of course on what cabin you
    wanted but you are talking $1000+ for the cheapest cabin
    exclusive of travel to the port of departure and back (the
    Norway leaves from Miami.) This factor eliminates any local poor
    but serious SF fans from the con and it becomes the con of the
    Haves vs the Have Nots causing even more political problems.
    This is also before incidental costs like the artshow & huckster
    room.

    Of course I may be doing Bernie's awareness an injustice.

3.  Function Space and Programming - Just as a Cruise Ship is set up
    to do many of the things than a con needs to do, they are also
    not set up to do some of them.  One of these things is handling
    multi tracks of Convention Programming.  The ship expects to
    entertain its passengers with its fixed attractions like the bar
    and casino.  Something could probably be rigged to make do.
    Either sacrificing cabins or holding somethings out on the deck
    (if the weather is good)

4.  Huckster Room and Art Show - Read the above comments about
    function space.  There is no, repeat no secure place on board
    where such things can be set up and then left unattended all
    night.

5.  Obscure Tax advantages - I dont know much about these and
    they applied mainly to the WorldCon and attending its business
    meeting - they may not be relevant to Boskone and tax reform may
    have modified them - but there were a lot of howls when it was
    discovered that these deductions didn't apply.

As I mentioned above the clever could come up with more.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 20 Apr 1987 07:11:43-PDT
From: moreau%bpt.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Ken Moreau)
Subject: Boskone

My wife and I have been to every Boskone since I discovered it at
Noreascon II (in 1979).  We have taken my daughter to the last 2.
We have always enjoyed ourselves, and plan to go to all future
Boskones as long as we can physically make the trip.

Having said that, I want to publicly applaud NESFA and the Boskone
Committee for taking the actions they did.  By trying to exclude the
party animals, and to include the serious SF fans, I think they will
make the next Boskone a more enjoyable experience for my family and
I than the last 2 have been.  I find it difficult to enjoy myself
during the day after having had no sleep the previous night because
there was a very loud party going on outside my hotel room door
until 3:30 in the morning, both Friday and Saturday night.  I also
found it difficult to enjoy myself when I had to climb the stairs to
my hotel room (21st floor) twice in one night because the damn fire
alarms kept going off.

I never saw any vandalism.  I never saw any people pulling fire
alarms.  But I cannot believe that the hotel (or the Boston Fire
Department) has >5 false alarms per night every night that Boskone
was not there, such as they had while Boskone was there.  It seems
to me that some activities of the people at the hotel that weekend
(whether attending Boskone or not) had to be causing the fire
alarms.  And given that people attending Boskone took over a large
percentage of the hotel, it seems reasonable to me to put the blame
on some of the attendees (whether members or not) of Boskone.

While I do not agree with every action taken by NESFA (I am
particularly unhappy with the "Discourage costumes" idea) I think
they have taken sound and (relatively) fair action.  I support any
and all actions they have taken or will take, to try and get Boskone
back to being what (I believe) it is: a chance for people who enjoy
SF to get together with others of the same mind.

Thank you Don Eastlake, Ann Broomhead, and others I do not know.
Here are three Boskone attendees who are firmly behind you.

And to all the people complaining about the rules (Snobcon, et al),
if you don't like the rules, run your own damn con with your own
ideas of how to do it better.  But until you have done so, don't
come on all high and mighty about things you know nothing about.

Ken Moreau

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 22:26:58 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

>> Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's
>> complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do
>> that. Any group

How many of those complaining live in Boston?  Have you ever tried
to organize a con when you can't afford to go there every weekend or
even more often to get it set up?  Once a year may be easy, but once
a week can drain budgets.

I would be willing to help set up a con.  In Cleveland, since that
is where I am.  I doubt that a ``Bosklone'' would benefit much from
my help over here, so I do not offer.  However, if you want to hold
one at the I-X center, I'd be glad to help.  [Note: I was not one of
those who flamed Boskone/NESFA, since I'm not likely to make it to
*any* con on my schedule and my budget, unless it is reasonably near
(i.e. Chicago is pushing it).]

Logistics count for something, you know.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
cbatt!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery%case.CSNET@relay.cs.net

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 17:14:44 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Boskone

>And to all the people complaining about the rules (Snobcon, et al),
>if you don't like the rules, run your own damn con with your own
>ideas of how to do it better.  But until you have done so, don't
>come on all high and mighty about things you know nothing about.

Hear! Hear!  If you think you can run a better con, go run it.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but little of the stuff I've
seen in this discussion is more than immature bitching.  If you
don't like it, then (1) vote with your feet or (2) do it better
yourself.


Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 18:18:43 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Boskone

moreau%bpt.DEC@decwrl.dec.com writes:
>And to all the people complaining about the rules (Snobcon, et al),
>if you don't like the rules, run your own damn con with your own
>ideas of how to do it better.  But until you have done so, don't
>come on all high and mighty about things you know nothing about.

I have complained about the new rules once or twice, so I think I
qualify to respond directly to that childish and ignorant comment.
First, I don't think you know me, or the range of things I know
about.  Cons aren't in that range, that's true.  But your
implication that if someone hasn't done something they aren't
qualified to criticize it is ridiculous and unfounded.  How many
people have been president of the United States?  How many people
have successfully launched a space shuttle?  How many people have
ever run a nuclear power plant?  You're right, I know nothing about
running a convention.  I probably couldn't do it without many months
of preparation and a lot of experienced help.  But if you tell me
that until I have run my own con I have nothing valid to say on the
subject then you're the one venturing out of his realm of
experience.  Believe it or not, people sometimes make valid
observations.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 06:04:41 GMT
From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Arrrgh!  Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?!

I don't think Steve Lamont read the posting from George Greene, Jr.
that Shoshanna Green was refering to. Shoshanna was not flaming
George for making a suggestion about how a con should be run despite
George's self-proclaimed total inexperience in any sort of con
organization; what she was flaming was George's attitude that
because he thought x was obvious, if an experienced con organizer
didn't immediately agree with him that x was correct, then clearly
the con organizer was being elitist and unfair. George Greene has
(or at least conveys it with almost every statement in his Boskone
postings) the attitude that any idea he has *must* be correct, even
though he's totally inexperienced. This is quite different from
someone writing something on the order of "Does anyone know if NESFA
has thought of having next year's Boskone in more than one hotel. I
think that might solve their problems".

If George had posted something like that, I would have responded
politely as to why I didn't think it was a good idea. But when
someone who, to me as someone experienced in this field, clearly
doesn't know what s/he's talking about starts presenting unworkable
ideas as absolute truth and incredibly obvious, despite not having
to do any of the work that said idea might involve, I, and
apparantly Shoshanna, tend to take a bit of offense at that
attitude.

When I was inexperienced in con organization, I made some stupid
suggestions as well. The thing is, I phrased them as suggestions,
and listened to the reasons given by more experienced con organizers
as to why the suggestion was unworkable.

Next, I acknowledge that SIGGRAPH is an order of magnitude larger
than Boskone, and has been held in several hotels. But SIGGRAPH is a
professional convention, not an sf convention. I seriously doubt
that anyone went to SIGGRAPH for the parties held there (the films,
maybe :-)).  I doubt there were many people crashing SIGGRAPH
looking for the hospitality suites. I doubt there were many
attendees under drinking age looking to score some booze. SIGGRAPH
and other professional conventions are a different type of con from
an sf con, most importantly in terms of the style of socialization
and the amount of business that the average con attendee will
conduct at the convention.

Finally, Steve wrote that "'Can't' isn't the same thing as 'don't
want to'." In some cases, it is. For example; "We can't do that
because if we did we'd put in so much work on the con that we'd lose
our jobs over it". While that could be rewritten as "We don't want
to...", I think can't is acceptable there.  If x is just not
feasible given the maximum reasonable amount of work by a known
sized committtee, then it's not that they don't want to, it's that
given the known constraints, they can't. He also proposes that
"perhaps Boskone needs professional management". Well, that wouldn't
help much now; next year's con will only be about 1500-2000 people.
And the cost of having pro management would probably push the
registration fee into triple digits.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:47:43 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Arrrgh!  Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?!

From: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa
[Steve Lamont quotes me replying to George Greene:]
>Ms. Shoshanna Green opines:
>>When you offer solutions in that manner, you are implicitly
>>claiming that you know better how to run the con than the people
>>who are blind enough not to see such an obvious answer.  If you
>>don't know anything about how to run a con, stop acting as though
>>you think you do.
>
>  AAAAARGGGGH!  Ignoring the dubious syntax, which I put down to
>either the heat of the moment or the lack of proof reading,
>implicit in Ms Green's comment is the assertion that _only_ those
>who run the con are allowed make suggestions on how the con is run.
>By extension, only those running the government should be allowed
>to make suggestions on how the government should be run.  Hmmm...
>I guess we can just chuck those first ten amendments to the
>Constitution and scratch the first Tuesday following the first
>Monday in November off the calendar, since we don't need to hear
>from the rabble.

Tom Galloway has defended me, but I want to clarify. I did not by
any means intend what Steve is reading, that only those in power can
comment. What I was flaming was George's tendency to say in one
breath that he knows nothing about running a con, and in the next
that there is a clear solution being overlooked by a presumably
stupid con committee.

We all have the right to make suggestions (or at least no one can
stop us). Plenty of suggestions are constructive ones. But George
seems to think that his opinions are fact. The key words in my
response are "in that manner"; i.e. the problem was that he was not
saying "why don't you try multiple hotels", but rather saying
"clearly multiple hotels will solve the problem, and if the Boskone
committee can't see that they are fools, or else they have some lazy
or snobbish reason for not wanting to run a multiple-hotel con."

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Apr 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #169
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #169
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 169

Today's Topics:

                    Films - THX 1138 (8 msgs) &
                            Day of the Triffids (3 msgs) &
                            Japanimation (2 msgs) &
                            Good SF Movies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 03:28:16 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!ccplumb@RUTGERS.EDU (Colin Plumb)
Subject: THX 1138

maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>   THX whatever it was

I remember this as THX 1138.  I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I
was 90% brain-dead at the time.  Although my memory is probably
wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George
Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of
interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a
stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX
1138!  THX 1138!  Why aren't you responding?"

Can someone refute or validate these claims?  If true, they make an
interesting trivia point.  Also, apologies if this has been hashed
out before.

Colin Plumb
watmath!ccplumb

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 03:31:54 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes:
>I remember this as THX 1138.  I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I
>was 90% brain-dead at the time.  Although my memory is probably
>wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George
>Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of
>interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a
>stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX
>1138!  THX 1138!  Why aren't you responding?"
>
>Can someone refute or validate these claims?

   THX1138 began as a student film Lucas did at USC. That version
consisted basically of the long chase at the end of the commercial
version. Somebody at the studios (Universal?) liked it, and financed
turning it into a commercial film. It became Lucas' first release.
   There's a semi-mention of THX that Mark Hamill ad-libbed,
"prisoner transfer from cell block 1138". I believe the number used
in the scene you're thinking of was TK421; still a little similar, I
guess.
   I believe there's also a car in AMERICAN GRAFFITI with the
license number THX 138; anybody know for sure?

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 02:25:07 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

watmath!ccplumb (Colin Plumb) writes:
>I remember this as THX 1138.  I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I
>was 90% brain-dead at the time.  Although my memory is probably
>wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George
>Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of
>interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a
>stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX
>1138!  THX 1138!  Why aren't you responding?"

Actually, the reference in this film was slightly later than that,
when Luke and Han, dressed in Imperial Stormtrooper Armor, are
escorting Chewtobaco around inside the DeathStar, and they reach the
cell-block where Leia is being held.  Luke calmly reports "Prisoner
transfer from cell block 1138."

Just for the record, one of the cars in American Graffiti had a
license plate which read THX-138.  As I understand it, several of
Lucas's films have such references, though these are the only two I
am aware of.

T. Russell Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 04:56:55 GMT
From: BCSCHONE@pucc.princeton.edu (Brian Schoner)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes:
>maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>>   THX whatever it was
>I remember this as THX 1138.  I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I
>was 90% I remember hearing that it was something George Lucas did
>really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of interesting, I
>recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a stormtrooper's
>uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX 1138!  THX 1138!
>Why aren't you responding?"
>
>Can someone refute or validate these claims?

True on both counts...THX 1138 was Lucas' first movie, and he DID
enjoy referring to it in his later, more successful ventures...for
example, the licence plate on Harrison Ford's car in American
Graffitti was numbered...you guessed it...THX 1138!

Brian Schoner

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 20:07:35 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

watmath!ccplumb (Colin Plumb) writes:
>I remember this as THX 1138.  I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I
>was 90% brain-dead at the time.  Although my memory is probably
>wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George
>Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of
>interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a
>stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX
>1138!  THX 1138!  Why aren't you responding?"

You're very very close.  In the movie, the name used by the control
tower was similar, but was not THX 1138.  However, in the BOOK, the
tower DOES call him THX 1138.  I was surprised that they changed it.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 19:29:24 GMT
From: seismo!sdcsvax!man!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes:
>I remember this as THX 1138.  I saw it once at about 3:00 AM, and I
>was 90% brain-dead at the time.  Although my memory is probably
>wildly inaccurate, I remember hearing that it was something George
>Lucas did really early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of
>interesting, I recall a scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a
>stormtrooper's uniform, the control tower calls him and says "THX
>1138!  THX 1138!  Why aren't you responding?"
>
>Can someone refute or validate these claims?

I can't say for sure in the film, though I seem to remember it, but
it is definitely in the novelization.

I've heard that while you're waiting in line for Star Tours at
Disneyland, one of the background bits is something to do with
THX-1138.  I think it's about a landspeeder with those plates.

David L. Smith
sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave
ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave
hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 18:10:22 GMT
From: kaufman@ORION.ARPA (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes:
>..."Prisoner transfer from cell block 1138."
>Just for the record, one of the cars in American Graffiti had a
>license plate which read THX-138.  As I understand it, several of
>Lucas's films have such references, though these are the only two I
>am aware of.

Just a note: There's also the seaplane at the beginning of
_Raider's_ _of_the_Lost_Arc_, with the call letters "OB-C3PO" (or
something like that); and the bar at the begining of _Indiana_Jones_
was the Obi Wan Cafe.

And, as for _THX-1138_, I was absolutely disappointed with it,
especially the black hologram character--silly stuff.  The movie
actaully worked better as a (15 minute, maybe?) college project.

Bill Kaufman
lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 03:30:27 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

In "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" there is a little "Star Wars" reference
on the wall behind the pedestal that the golden head is resting on.
It is pretty near impossible to see, but on the wall there are a
bunch of hieroglyphics and among them there is a picture of C3-PO in
an egyption pose and R2-D2 standing right next to him.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 18:12:12 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies)

alainew@tekcae.TEK.COM (Alaine Warfield) writes:
> John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" is a great movie, mostly on
> the intellectual level.  It describes a world in which man's space
> defenses have backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to
> go blind.  I was surprised to find that the book was written in
> the 40's or 50's as it has so much insight in the problems facing
> us today.
>
> The movie is British and is extremely faithful to the book, which
> makes the movie about 4 hours long but definitely worth it.

I'm confused, but I don't see any smiley faces, or detect any
noticeable level of sarcasm; the message wasn't even posted on April
1, so I've got to take it at face value.  The movie that I've seen
called "The Day of the Triffids" does bear some relation to the book
I've read called "The Day of the Triffids", but "faithful" is not
the word I would've chosen to describe it.

Let me point out what bothers me in the above posting:

1) "a great movie, mostly on the intellectual level" This strikes me
   as being akin to the comments finding political commentary in
   "The Wizard of Oz".  It's a great monster movie, but not terribly
   intellectual.

2) "It describes a world in which man's space defenses have
   backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to go blind."  I
   don't recall anything having to do with space defenses in either
   movie or book.  It was a meteor shower in both that caused the
   blindness.  The time period of the book may be a little in
   advance of "today", but the movie is certainly the "today" of the
   mid '60s, so no space defense exist.

3) "it has so much insight in the problems facing us today."  If so,
   it's completely coincidental.  The problems in book and movie
   aren't related to our present-day problems (of course, since I
   don't live in Oregon, where the posting originated, I may not
   have the same familiarity with giant ambulatory carnivorous
   plants as the average Oregonian :-)).

4) "The movie is British" This is the first item I can solidly agree
   with.

5) "and is extremely faithful to the book" Well, the book and movie
   do share some common scenes: mostly everyone goes blind, and the
   triffids prey upon the blind population in each, but that's about
   it.  The book has nothing like the couple in the lighthouse, and
   the movie merely glosses over the collapse and reconstruction of
   civilization.  The scene in the movie involving the looters and
   the...what is it, a girls' school?...  is close in spirit to the
   book, but that's about all.  As far as the ending of the movie
   goes, well, I take it with a grain of salt.

6) "the movie about 4 hours long" Nope.  This film must clock in
   around two phours, uncut, probably less.

Hey, if I've risen to bait dangled by someone who thought the
"Berserker" posting a clever idea but didn't want to wait a full
year, OK, I'll wear the cap and bells and smile.  But if you're
serious, Alaine, you really need to check your memory or library or
something...

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:25:12 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies)

cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes:
>alainew@tekcae.TEK.COM (Alaine Warfield) writes:
>> John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" is a great movie, mostly on
>> the intellectual level...
>
>I'm confused, but I don't see any smiley faces, or detect any
>noticeable level of sarcasm; the message wasn't even posted on
>April 1, so I've got to take it at face value...

Two different movies.  The earlier one is real monster-movie hokum,
with triffids eating people (crunch, crunch).  Chris describes it
pretty well.

The later one was shown as a TV series, is faithful to the book,
about 4 hours long, and all that other good stuff, and presumably is
the one Alaine saw.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 21:52:08 GMT
From: spr@miro.berkeley.edu (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies)

The BBC produced a three part special called "The Day of the
Triffids" which I saw over Christmas break one evening on a local
PBS station.

[SPOILER WARNING]

In this version, Triffids were plants altered by man because they
produced a benefit for oil companies.  The man who we see with the
bandage over his eyes worked with Triffids on a Triffid farm, and
was blinded by one (temporarily).  Also, the "meteor" shower is
implied or suggested that it is a breaking satellite that somehow
resulted in blinding people who looked at it ( a weapon perhaps?)
and that a disease that appears later on could be from a biological
weapons warehouse. I never read the book, so I can't say how
faithful it is.

Sean Rouse
ARPA:  spr@miro.berkeley.edu
UUCP:  ...ucbvax!miro!spr
USnail:  315 International House
         2299 Piedmont Ave
         Berkeley, Ca  94720

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 13:22:54 GMT
From: orchid!mwtilden@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

pxd3563@ritcv.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes:
>1.  Like Jim I have never heard of "Summer Macross 84".  I have
>heard of the Macross Movie (or Macross, the movie), and the others
>that he mentioned.  I have heard that there is supposed to be a
>Robotech movie sometime.  I have also heard that there are supposed
>to be new episodes of Robotech coming out sometime dealing with
>what happens to Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes after the first series.

Alas my informed sources reveal that Harmony Gold has dropped the
Robotech line.  Only three episodes of the new series were ever
completed and then stopped due to lack of funds.  Whatever they're
doing now, it ain't Japanese animation.

On the good side though, the ROBOTECH movie has been released along
with a reasonable translation of MACROSS 84 to your local video
store.  Has anybody seen them?  I don't get out enough to really
check.

Keeping the faith...

Mark Tilden
M.F.C.F Hardware Design Lab.
Un. of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1
work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 08:01:18 GMT
From: malloy@crash.cts.com (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

pxd3563@ritcv.UUCP (Patrick Deupree) writes:
>1.  Like Jim I have never heard of "Summer Macross 84".  I have
>heard of

This was the feature-length Macross movie made in Japan in the
summer of 1984. The Macross movies (distinguished from the Robotech
movie) bear little or no relation to the plot of the series, other
than having the same characters and enemies.

>2.  I don't know about "Gemma Wars" but I have heard of a movie
>called "Gemma Tyson"(sp?).

This is "Genma Taisen", also known as "Harmageddon" or "The Great
Dream War".

Sean Malloy
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!malloy
ARPA: crash!malloy@nosc
Naval Personnel Research and Development Center
San Diego, CA 92152-6800

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 09:00:03 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>For pretty good ones, how about:
>
>Brazil
>Charley
>The "Mad Max Trilogy"
>THX whatever it was

I would like to add:

"The Man in The White Suit" Alex Guiness (Black and White)
   My favorite eccentric scientist picture.  "Why no, you can't fire
   me.  I don't work here."

"Phase 4"
   The most original science ideas I've seen in a long time.  So,
   what if the plot was a little weak...

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Apr 87 1030-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #170
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 87 1030-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #170
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 170

Today's Topics:

           Television - Starman & Max Headroom (8 msgs) &
                        Doctor Who & Blake's 7 & 
                        The Prisoner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  2 Apr 1987 08:17:39-PST
From: devi%bootes.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: STARMAN

>Having an alien criticize human beings...is..an extremely old
>cliche

But - that's one of the things that isn't done on this show.  The
alien doesn't take sides - he stays neutral - and forces people to
look at themselves and what they are doing.  He doesn't have a
holier than thou attitude.  In fact, he's more humble than most
"people" he runs into.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 87 12:03:24 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White)
Subject: Max Headroom

 ****** I suppose that some of the below could be SPOILERS! ******

    Has anyone out there seen both the 'Original' Max Headroom (I
saw it on video) and the 'Series Opener' of Max Headroom (shown on
ABC)?  Did anyone who saw both notice how much 'cleaner' the TV
Series version was?  There wasn't as much shown of the environment -
most of it was inside the TV23 building.  They even removed the
'Cross-Hatch Generator' bit, and had Max escape 'Into the System'
after hearing the president of TV23 threatening to erase his memory.
What does everyone out there think of the changes they made, and
will the series fare well in prime time, and WHY WASN'T THERE ANY
WARNING OF THIS ON THE NET?????????

jl

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 87 15:47:25 GMT
From: elliott@aero.ARPA (Ken Elliott)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White)
>    Has anyone out there seen both the 'Original' Max Headroom (I
>saw it on video) and the 'Series Opener' of Max Headroom (shown
>on ABC)?

I saw the Series Opener version, but not the original (British, I
guess) version, and am dying to know what the hell the difference
is.  I surmise there were more 'scenery shots' in the original,
there weren't as many security guards on level 13, etc., etc., but
haven't got the full story.  Could someone please *mail* me a
summary of the original, and I'll post it to the net.  And yes, if I
had a VCR, I'd go out and rent it; I have the dubious honor of being
the only person in CA without a VCR. :-)

Ken Elliott
elliott@aerospace.aero.org

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 17:52 EST
From: <DAC%CUNYVMS1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Max Headroom

Greetings in netland,

I've been away from the net for about a month (two actually, but I'm
trying hard right now not to think about work).  So I apologize in
advance if this has been discussed recently.  However, I am mucho
curious about people's reactions to Max Headroom (on Tuesday nights
on ABC I think).

Without giving away much, Max seems to be an independent personality
of some type living in electronic land (the television or computer
nets of the future as in 20 minutes into the future).  The other
main characters center around channel 23 a television station's news
department.  The settings look like something out of the BBC.

So what do you think?  I have to admit that I was left curious
enough to come back next week.  Still it seemed a little flat.  That
could be due to early character development.

On the other hand.  It is probably the best thing coming out of
North American tv that calls itself s.f. these days.  (which ain't
saying much.)  alf...alf...alf (read barf...barf...barf)

See you in netlands

Danny

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 23:15:32 GMT
From: netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Max Headroom **SPOILERS**

From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White)
>    Has anyone out there seen both the 'Original' Max Headroom (I
>saw it on video) and the 'Series Opener' of Max Headroom (shown
>on ABC)?  Did anyone who saw both notice how much 'cleaner'
>the TV Series version was?  There wasn't as much shown of the
>environment - most of it was inside the TV23 building.  They even
>removed the 'Cross-Hatch Generator' bit, and had Max escape 'Into
>the System' after hearing the president of TV23 threatening to erase
>his memory.  What does everyone out there think of the changes they
>made, and will the series fare well in prime time, and WHY WASN'T
>THERE ANY WARNING OF THIS ON THE NET?????????

I've seen the original Max H. The TV opener was supposedly refilmed
on the west coast. Only two actors/actresses were in the opener and
the original: the guy who plays Eddison/Max and his controller. In
next weeks show another original actor appears to be in it from what
I can tell from the previews. The guy who played the husband
renegade TV network owner (the one in the truck/van).  They really
reworked the Max H. concept for the series in the US. To be honest
the original Max H. was very strange and difficult to follow at
times. Probably deliberately. It was much more hard edged.  The
series is softened up a bit for US audiences. Also they changed
things so that Max and Eddison meet in the series. The series is
more simply presented without letting the audience work too hard to
figure out what's going on. Not unexpected.  I really like the
series. The interplay between Max and Eddison is funny and
interesting (actually the interplay between Max and anyone is
funny).  They're using some good actors: Eddison's boss is/was the
judge on Hill Street Blues.  It will probably last a while (at least
one season) due to Blade Runner/Road Warrier/Brazil fans and the
press, I hope.  It does remind me of Brazil a lot, anyone else?
Sorry but I am terrible with names. I'm lucky I remembered Max's.

seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 87 19:40:13 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Hyperdriving under the influence...

Does anyone remember a short-lived TV show that came out shortly
after the first Star Wars movie? It was called Quark. I don't
remember it all that well, but it was a kind of parody of both Star
Wars and Star Trek (mostly the former).

  It featured a space ship that was an interstellar garbage scow. It
roamed around looking for "space baggies," which were gigantic
Hefty-style garbage bags floating in space. It had a crew member who
was a "plant." (Kinduv like Mr. Spock is a Vulcan?) They had a
mysterious all-pervading power called "The Source" (like The Force).
I remember once that the hero needed to let The Source guide him
while he was temporarily blinded, and it was this voice that gave
him directions like, "Now turn left -- no, wait, I mean RIGHT..."
  It was a pretty funny show while it lasted.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 87 21:24:24 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom **SPOILERS**

WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET writes:
> I've seen the original Max H. The TV opener was supposedly
> refilmed on the west coast. Only two actors/actresses were in the
> opener and the original: the guy who plays Eddison/Max and his
> controller. In next weeks show another original actor appears to
> be in it from what I can tell from the previews. The guy who
> played the husband renegade TV network owner (the one in the
> truck/van).

I think he was really one of my favorites in the original- he had
CHARACTER!  8-)

> They really reworked the Max H. concept for the series in the US.
> To be honest the original Max H. was very strange and difficult to
> follow at times. Probably deliberately. It was much more hard
> edged.

Yeeaahhh, I suppose you MIGHT get that impression...  Reworked?  How
does 60% altered sound? If this was a cat, it'd be hamburger, not
sterile!  The origional Max was... Unique, I'll grant that- but one
thing I found interesting was that I watched the original with one
guy who reads SOME SF, and three who are so/so about SF, and a
certain relative (I'm so ashamed of her! 8-) who Loathes it with a
capital "L".  I go through enough SF and fantasy, in addition to
technical books, texts, etc., in a year to constitute a minor
deciduous forest, meself. (Enough to keep my eyes weak and my mind
altered at all times :-)

I had no real trouble following the original.  The SOME guy was
confused at several points, the three were ususally lost, and the
last hated it.  Maybe SF helps to follow SF?  This has nothing to do
with whether or not you were lost at some points- so was I, a few
times, until it was later cleared up in the show.  I'm just
wondering if anyone else noticed similar trouble from non-science
fiction (etc.) readers?

> The series is softened up a bit for US audiences. Also they
> changed things so that Max and Eddison meet in the series. The
> series is more simply presented without letting the audience work
> too hard to figure out what's going on. Not unexpected.  I really
> like the series. The interplay between Max and Eddison is funny
> and interesting (actually the interplay between Max and anyone is
> funny).  They're using some good actors: Eddison's boss is/was the
> judge on Hill Street Blues.  It will probably last a while (at
> least one season) due to Blade Runner/Road Warrier/Brazil fans and
> the press, I hope.  It does remind me of Brazil a lot, anyone
> else?  Sorry but I am terrible with names. I'm lucky I remembered
> Max's.

Yeah, the series was fair.  (Read: about 200% better than most of
the crud being beamed out at us from our home particle guns. 8-)

I still liked the origional better, though.  Why take out the
cross-hatch generator?  To eliminate complications due to BigTime's
van and suchlike?

Ah, well.  We'll see what next week brings!

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 03:39:11 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Max Headroom question

What exactly is a cross-hatch generator?

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 87 05:27:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!porsche@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

I personally liked the Max Headroom episodes that I have viewed so
far(the premiere and the following week's episode).  It is nice to
see a show that doesn't restrict the imagination of its writers.  I
have not yet seen the home video release, (I have heard it is a bit
different) but is there any reason to??  Besides, it's nice to see
that ABC is not putting on another BORING cop show containing stupid
car chases and sappy plots...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 87 05:07:34 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TRIAL OF A TIME LORD / DR. WHO SEASON 23

From: Jonathan L Burstein <CC4.JL-BURSTEIN@CU20D.COLUMBIA.EDU>
> "Trial of a Time Load"
>I caught most of it.  Very, very good.  Highly recommended.

I assume this is an April Fool's joke.  It was perhaps the worst
season of Doctor Who ever filmed.  If you are a fan, and it hasn't
been shown in your area, avoid it when it comes on, you will feel
better.

It's fairly self-contained.  Mild spoilers....

One companion leaves gratuitously.  Another joins without an
introduction sequence.  Events occur written by writers seemingly
ignorant of show history (Hard to believe for Holmes) and these
events will take some effort to reverse.

Just avoid it, especially the last one.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 87 01:18:39 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7 episode list wanted

Here is the list of episode's for Blakes 7 (The four seasons that
the show ran are refered to as series A, B, C, and D in the book
that I am getting this list from.

Series A: (Jan. 2, 1978 to Mar. 27, 1978)

   1.  The Way Back (intro. Blake, Jenna, & Vila)
   2.  Space Fall (intro. Avon, Gan, & Zen(Liberator))
   3.  Cygnus Alpha
   4.  Time Squad (intro. Cally)
   5.  The Web
   6.  Seek-Locate-Destroy (intro. Servalan & Travis)
   7.  Mission To Destiny
   8.  Duel
   9.  Project Avalon
   10. Breakdown
   11. Bounty
   12. Deliverance (intro. Orac)
   13. Orac (Orac predicts destruction of Liberator)

Series B: (Jan. 9, 1979 to Apr. 3, 1979)

   1.  Redemption (Destruction of Liberator type ship)
   2.  Shadow
   3.  Weapon
   4.  Horizon
   5.  Pressure Point (Gan dies)
   6.  Trial
   7.  Killer
   8.  Hostage
   9.  Countdown
   10. Voice From The Past
   11. Gambit
   12. The Keeper
   13. Star One (Federation computer destroyed.  Travis dies)

Series C: (Jan. 7, 1980 to Mar. 31, 198)

   1.  Aftermath (Crew leaves Liberator so it can repair itself.
           Intro. Dayna)
   2.  Powerplay (Intro. Tarrant)
   3.  Volcano
   4.  Dawn Of The Gods
   5.  The Harvest Of Kairos
   6.  The City At The Edge Of The World
   7.  Children Of Auron
   8.  Rumors Of Death
   9.  Sarcophagus
   10. Ultraworld
   11. Moloch
   12. Death-Watch
   13. Terminal (Destruction of Liberator.  Blake appearance)

Series D: (Sept. 28, 1981 to Dec. 21, 1981)

   1.  Rescue (Intro Scorpio (and Slave) & Soolin.  Death of Cally)
   2.  Power
   3.  Traitor
   4.  Stardrive (Scorpio gets a very fast Stardrive)
   5.  Animals
   6.  Headhunter
   7.  Assassin
   8.  Games
   9.  Sand
   10. Gold
   11. Orbit
   12. Warlord
   13. Blake (Destruction of Scorpio.  Death of Blake, Soolin,
          & Dayna)

Anyway, that is the basic episode guide.  I got it from a book I
have called "Blakes 7, The Programme Guide" by Tony Attwood.  There
is another book out called "Afterlife" also by Tony Attwood.
According to the series it was not sure whether Vila or Tarrant
survived because there was gun fire and everyone but Avon went down.
Basically Avon killed Blake (supposedly because he thought that
Blake was a traitor).  Afterlife is a very good book and if anyone
can find it I would suggest reading it.  I found a copy of it at
DoubleDay books in Stamfoord, CT.  These are the only books that I
know about, but the Programme guide has a synopsis of all the
episodes in it along with photos from the show and a few interviews
with the actors.  There is also an index in the back with all of the
important terms and people from the series.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 20:19:34 GMT
From: seismo!isis!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: The Prisoner

I was wondering if any or all of the episodes of "The Prisoner" are
out on videotape and if so, where I could get them.  Also, along the
same lines, are there any novelizations of any of the episodes?
Though they show them here in Denver (and on PBS stations in many
other cities, too), I always seem to see the same ones over and over
again.  Are there any other Prisoner/McGoohan fans out there?  For
some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is his lesser-known series
(I would think many more people know about the "Secret Agent" one),
I always like it better.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Apr 87 1042-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #171
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Apr 87 1042-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #171
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 171

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 05:41:15 GMT
From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Don't Mourn; Organize (was  Re: SnobCon)

In response to two postings by George "It must be right because I
think it's obvious, even if I have no experience in whatever it is"
Greene, Jr.;

First, to my knowledge, as someone who's lived in Boston for about 2
years off and on (although not any more recently than 1985), there
is no "cluster" of hotels there that I would consider appropriate
for a Boskone. By appropriate, I mean spaced closely enough together
to make getting between them take no more than 1 minute, and that
have suitable convention facilities. Second, since I, unlike Greene,
know that I'm not infallible here, I assume that NESFA, if they
wished to have a Boskone in multiple hotels (which due to logistic
problems *I* certainly wouldn't want to try), are checking for that
sort of situation using resources such as the Boston Convention
Bureau (or whatever it's called). I suspect that NESFA would agree
with me that the extra hassles of running a 4500 person con every
year over a series of hotels is just not worth it, even if this
*hypothetical* cluster of hotels that George is so fond of even
exists.

Also, George, I certainly believe that of any local sf convention
organizing group in the country, NESFA would be best able to handle
a distributed con.  That doesn't mean that I think the con would be
a success, or that NESFA would or should want to add even more work
to the *extremely* large amount of *volunteer* labor they're already
putting in on Boskone.

And in yet another misstatement by George, he queries about the 1989
Boston Worldcon "bid". Boston was awarded the '89 Worldcon last
September, which has been mentioned several times in this series of
postings. MCFI (not NESFA, although there is overlap in the
membership) is working with the Sheraton in regards to the already
signed contract for rooms for Noreascon. All, or just about all, of
the official functions will be taking place in the Hynes Auditorium.

I was going to thoroughly roast George's long posting in response to
my response to him, but Shoshanna Green beat me to it in many ways.
So I'll limit myself to points she didn't cover, or which I feel
should be emphasized.

Point one: George has stated in his own words that "[He] DO[es] NOT
KNOW ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar
event". Thus, his opinions (as much as he wishes they were and tries
to represents them as facts) are totally uninformed and are
presented in a generally obnoxious manner that insinuates that since
something is obvious to him in his ignorance, it must be true.  To
present my credentials, I've been staff level on 3 Worldcons, 5
Boskones, head of programming (panels and the like, not computers)
for a 1500 person Philcon, staff level on two other Philcons, staff
on Loscon, Norwescon, etc. I'm currently serving as advisor to a
group planning its first (small) convention. Due to this, I believe
that my opinions on the topic of conventions are at least relatively
well informed.

And to give an example of George's debating style:
>I don't recall ever having said a damn thing about how to run an SF
>convention.  Telling people that they should use more than one
>hotel is not telling them how to solve the problems that that will
>impose.  Just to beat a dead horse into the ground: I DO NOT KNOW
>ANYTHING about how to run an SF con or any other similar event.
>This does not stop me from knowing that the lame excuse that "no
>facility is big enough" is entirely bogus.

Let me be the first to offer my consolations on George's unfortunate
self-inflicted foot injury.... Amazing that in the same paragraph he
can write that he doesn't know anything about the subject that he's
refering to, but that he's sure that thing x relating to that
subject is bogus. Just amazing.

>The attitude that [NESFA] claim[s] to have [about cutting back on
>Boskone] is not terribly relevant, because actions speak louder
>than words.

Sigh. George, NESFA per se has not claimed any attitude. I have
stated that in my opinion they do have the "secret society" and
"incestuous" attitudes that you have accused them of, based on my
personal knowledge of members of NESFA.  You have an opinion (a word
I strongly suggest that George look up in a good dictionary so that
he might possibly gain an understanding of how if differs from fact;
a distinction that George seems to have some problems with) based on
no knowledge of the people involved, no knowledge of what's involved
in running a convention, no knowledge of the debate surrounding
passage of the restrictions, etc. To simplify, George has a totally
uninformed opinion which he perceives as unalterable fact. I have an
informed opinion which I recognize as such.

>[Re: motivation for cutting attendance being lack of a large enough
>facility] I'd call any concept whatsoever of "facility" irrelevant,
>as long as you are using the singular. If the facility is too small
>then you adjacent facilitIES. That is obviously NOT the real
>reason.

Well, I assume that George meant to include the word "use" between
"you" and "adjacent". Sigh. I tried to explain why using several
facilities was a bad idea. But despite his earlier admission of
total ignorance about planning a convention, he's still sure that
it's "obviously not the REAL reason" that attendance is being cut.
George, do you have these conspiracy theories often?  Once again,
George doesn't even know if such facities even exist; he's just sure
that they have to because he thinks they do because...

>But braving the wind and coping with the logistics WILL [make it
>so]. It's just a question of whether the organizing committee would
>rather do that or resort to the elitist wimp-out.

Sigh redux. It's not the committee alone that'd have to cope with
moving around a block or so in subzero wind chill factors, it's the
attendees. And it's also a question of whether, in the eyes of
people who have organized conventions and know what they're talking
about, the logistics of such an operation *are* copable. This
person, who's done it, think it's not. George, who's proclaimed his
ignorance, thinks it is. The rest is left as an exercise to the
reader.

In response to my sarcastic comment about everyone who'd like to go
to a Boskone showing up at the Sheraton next year and doing one
(which Shoshanna recognized as being sarcastic, but George took
seriously!), George responds

>I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already.  They don't
>have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just arrange
>to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their" people
>(fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that weekend.
>Starting now. They could screen by how far in advance people were
>willing to pay. Whether the Sheraton was willing to "accept"
>Boskone would then become an entirely moot point.

Thank you George. This was the silliest thing I've read in months.
And proves your total ignorance of convention running. And a near
total lack of common sense. First off, the Sheraton would sue for
false representation. Second, there is considerable setup that needs
to be done in the hotel before the con starts. I suspect the hotel
just might get a wee bit suspicious, particularly since they'd
probably remember many NESFen from this year.  Third, in order to
get better room rates, they'd have to be a convention of some kind,
ditto for getting rooms blocked off for attendees. Fourth, there are
*many* things that a hostile hotel can do to make life miserable for
you. And if this stunt was tried, assuming that everyone was chucked
out in the first place due to false representation, I'm sure the
Sheraton personnel would pull every legal trick in the book to make
as many problems as possible for the convention. If the hotel is
hostile, the convention will be a disaster.  Remember what you wrote
earlier about not knowing anything about convention running?  You're
proving it with almost every line you write.

>I would say that if Atlanta can [have a con distributed over two
>hotels], surely Boston can. But not necessarily in the winter.
>That is a legitimate problem.

A rare moment in history here folks; George admits that he thinks
that something is a "legitimate" problem. Anyway, Atlanta was a
special case in that the two hotels were *extremely* close together;
much closer than I've seen any two hotels before. Also, that was a
Worldcon with committee and staff from all over the world. Boston is
much more limited in terms of how many people can be used for
committee and staff.

>Why is the con committee strained?  If there are 4500 people who
>want to go, SURELY there must be "enough" who want to plan.  I
>would think that slots on the con organizing committee would be
>among the most highly prized offices in NESFA.  If the con
>committee is strained I would expect it to be more because of its
>unwillingness to share clout & credit than because of lack of
>interest from the membership in contributing person-power to the
>effort.

In addition to Shoshanna's excellent rebuttal points, the number of
people who are willing to volunteer is almost always low in
comparison to the number of people attending anything (with certain
special exceptions, of course).  I don't know of anyone who's
volunteered for Boskone who's ever been turned down (they might not
get what they volunteer for, but that's a separate issue), and NESFA
is constantly on the lookout for people who do a good job at gopher
level in order to try to get them to move up to staff level the next
year. Also, keep in mind that despite spending enormous amounts of
time and energy on Boskone, every committee member is a volunteer.
Personally they get no renumeration out of their effort.

>The smallest tolerable "large room" [for the art show, or
>huckster's room, or large panels/events] is available only in a
>large hotel? I would humbly suggest looking harder.

George, you haven't "humbly" suggested anything in this whole line
of debate.  In fact, you haven't "suggested"; you've just declared
and shown ignorance about things you percieve as being obvious. Do
you even have any idea how large the rooms needed are? Why don't you
be quiet until you do?

>> Well, fine. Let "them" go ahead. Gee, funny how no one who's
>> complaining so loudly about the situation is volunteering to do
>> that. Any group that tries to do a 4,000 person con will run into
>> exactly the same problems that NESFA ran into when they tried to
>> schedule next year's Boskone.
>
>No, if we run it at the same time, it will only be a 2,000 person
>con.

What do you mean "we"? Are you planning to do it? If not, then quit
talking like you are, and insulting those who are willing to do the
work. Also, if a con for similar interests were held on the same
weekend in the same metro area as Boskone, it'd have major problems
getting professional guests (I'd suspect that most would go to
Boskone, due to the number of publishers and editors present), art
for the art show (Boskone has an excellent rep among artists for the
quality of its art show and the amount of purchases), etc. It
wouldn't happen that the con would just split in half.

>> [George]'s made some assumptions that he takes to be facts,
>> without having any experience to back them up with.
>
>The only assumptions that I made were that there existed both 1) a
>cluster of appropriately-sized hotels, and 2) a group of people
>willing and able to plan a convention around them in the Boston
>area.  I don't NEED any experience to know that both of those
>assumptions are true.  On the other hand, experience with the wind
>chill factor might convince me that it wasn't, for the fans, worth
>the trouble.  If the organizing committee claims it's not worth
>THEIR trouble then it is the wrong committee.

Apparently George also doesn't need reality to "know" that his
assumptions are "true". C'mon George, give us the names of these
hotels in Boston that you, you inexperienced con organizer you, are
positive can and will handle a 4,500 person Boskone. If you can't
name them, then your first assumption is not true; you just think it
should be. You're also 100% sure that a group of people exist in
Boston who can organize a convention based on your totally without
experienced criteria. How about naming them as well? And NESFA
doesn't count, since you say that if the current committee doesn't
agree with you, it's the wrong committee. So who are your
replacements? And if *any* group of people doing all the work for
something decide that the something is not worth their (volunteered,
with no contract signed) trouble, then it isn't, and *your* (or
anyone who isn't doing the work) desire that they put in the work
because *you* want them to is totally irrelevant. George is making a
(fairly feeble) attempt to talk the talk, but he can't even do that
well, much less walk the walk. He also has a serious problem in that
because he *thinks* something should be true, then it has to be
true.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 1987 19:13:45 EST (Mon)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.arpa>
Subject: Fantasy and Science Fiction Conventions
Cc: george%scirtp.uucp@seismo.css.gov

From: seismo!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!george (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.)
>...I'm really amazed that NESFA hasn't tried this already.  They
>don't have to tell the Sheraton that they're NESFA. They can just
>arrange to procure (separately) reservations for all of "their"
>people (fans, pros, dealers, artists, whatever) at the hotel that
>weekend.

While it is amusing to watch this clown expound on a subject he
knows nothing about, I feel a warning is in order.  So kiddies,
don't try swallowing any of this stuff at home, it can interfere
with your perception of reality.  And if you can find 2000 friends
who want to check into a hotel with you, be sure to let the hotel
know, so they don't arrest you for inciting to riot.

Apologies to all of you who have been to a con and know this
already.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 00:29:54 GMT
From: 6080626@pucc.princeton.edu (Adam Barr)
Subject: Boskone, yet once again

About Boskone, I can't see why they don't make it first-come
first-served. It would be easier to manage, rather than trying to
figure out whether this guy had gone to 3 of the last 5, or maybe
only 2 of the last 5 but 3 of the last 6 and he was pre-registered,
and so on. The people who are really into Boskone would hear about
it early and register in no time. And if they forget, well, that's
life. How many people are going to register for Boskone real early
just so they can go and trash the place? Boy, sounds like real fun.
   Also, I was wondering if anyone had actually figured out how many
people were going to be automatically invited. If you sum up all the
3 of 5 people and the art people and the gophers and the recognized
club members and all that, how many spaces are left?  Does it add up
to 500, or 1000, or 3000?

Adam Barr
6080626@PUCC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Apr 87 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #172
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 87 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #172
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:

              Books - Alexander & Brunner & Eddings &
                      Friedman & Kennealy (2 msgs) &
                      LeGuin (2 msgs) & Tiptree & Van Vogt &
                      The King in Yellow (2 msgs) &
                      Ace Specials

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 Apr 87 18:08:06-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: RE: Lloyd Alexander

Don't miss -Time Cat- It was one of my most favorite books when I
was a kid, and I re-read it just recently and it is still good.
It's about this kid who has a magical cat who can travel in time,
and can take the kid with him.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 23:30:48 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: John Brunner

>  TITLE               RATING(1-10)
>Stand On Zanzibar       8 or 9
>Shockwave Rider         9
>The Sheep Look Up       9 1/2

I'll agree with two out of three; TSLU was too dark for my taste.  I
have seen it labeled a sequel to SOZ, but it is an independent work.
Of the ones listed in Dan Tilque's article, I'd particularly
recommend "The Jagged Orbit" and the alternate-history/time-travel
novel "The Long Result".

Brunner's work varies in style quite a lot -- he likes
experimenting.  For instance, returning to "Stand on Zanzibar", I
read about 1/3 of it on the first try and nearly gave it up --
before I realized that it did have a plot.  But when I finished it I
considered it excellent -- the social environment it describes is
still, in my opinion, the best extrapolation made to date of what
our part of the world will really be like in the future.  And the
book was written something like 15 years ago now!

But there are two books of his that I particularly recommend,
BESIDES all of those listed above, both of which are told in a
straightforward style.

The first is "Telepathist", generally known in the US under the
title "The Whole Man".  This is the story of the life of the most
powerful telepath -- or telepathist, to use the language of the book
-- in the world.  Partly because of effects that are linked to the
telepathy gene, it is even farther from a normal life than one might
expect...

The other is "The Stone that Never Came Down".  This novel provides
an answer to the question: "What technological development would
hold the greatest promise for solving the problems of the world, and
what would happen if someone produced and tried to implement it?"
And I bet the answer isn't one you'll think of just from reading
this message...

Some other Brunner novels are:

   Quicksand
   The Crucible of Time
   Total Eclipse
   The Dramaturges of Yan
   The Infinitive of Go

These are roughly in order of how much I liked them -- worst to
best.

Mark Brader
Toronto
utzoo!sq!msb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87  21:15:21 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: On Eddings...

  I tend to agree with several of the criticisms of Eddings, while
praising his talent and enjoying the books a great deal. Let's face
it: he *DOES* telegraph a great many of the plot elements a whopping
long time in advance.  It was perfectly obvious well before it
happened that Durnik would die and be revived by Garion. It was
perfectly obvious well before it happened that Garion would marry
Ce'Nedra. And so on and so on.
  Secondly, Eddings makes several New Writer type of mistakes. Take
the new book. (*SPOILER TIME*)
  For instance, Garion nearly had his head ripped off by Belgarath
for mucking around with the weather patterns to a presumably fatal
degree.  I have no degree in meteorology, but I daresay that calling
lightning and rain from an already heavily overcast sky isn't
stretching things too far.
  Another one. How old is Errand at the end of the Belgariad? Seven?
Six, at a rock bottom minimum? Given the fact that ten or eleven
years pass in the span of Guardians of the West, shouldn't he be a
young man by now?  The text seems to continue to treat him as a boy.
  I don't intend to put Eddings down. I loved the Belgariad; the
characters were very appealing, and his dialogue is beautiful. I
jusdt don't think we should expect Guardians of the West to win a
Nebula quite yet.

Robert G. Traynor
UMass-Boston

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 13:39:28 GMT
From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!chinet!megabyte@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark E.
From: Sunderlin)
Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing

mcohen@nrtc.arpa writes:
>When they finally met, they were initially overjoyed, but when they
>began telepathically (and involuntarily) exchanging their most
>personal and embarrassing thoughts and memories, they became
>disgusted with each other.

The new book _In Conquest Born_ by C.S. Friedman deals with the
blessings and curses of telepathy... among so many other things.  I
finall got a copy of this and read it.  Buy it! It is without a
doubt one of, if not the best "Hard" SF book published here.  No
swords and sorcery here, just intellegent, well written SF.

Mark E. Sunderlin
UUCP: seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder
      ihnp4!chinet!megabyte
(202) 634-2529
Mail: IRS  PM:PFR:D:NO
      1111 Constitution Ave.
      Washington,DC 20224

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 01:56:54 GMT
From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Copper Crown

     I've read that for every complicated question there's an answer
that is short, simple, and wrong.  The numerous problems in
_The_Copper_Crown_ seem to have an answer which is short, simple,
and right: Kennealy was writing not as a scientist or sociologist,
but as a medievalist nut (all S. C. A. members, myself included, are
medievalist nuts) with a "neat idea."
     "Celts in Space!"  Does that refer to Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty,
or is that something like "Pigs in Space";-)??!  Actually, the Kelts
sometimes reminded me of the Helders in _Lord_of_the_Swastika_( AKA
_The_Iron_Dream_).  I guess that's what comes of doing too much
persona research.  I hope Kennealy drops space-opera-fantasy in
favor of straight fantasy, preferably in a style borrowed from
folktale and legend.  That seems to be a more appropriate style and
genre for her talents.

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 14:24:36 GMT
From: haste#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: The Copper Crown

OK, "The Copper Crown" is an inconsistent pastiche of science
fiction, fantasy and wishing.  The author effectively writes a
fantasy in which 'spaceship' is used instead of 'ship', 'space'
instead of 'ocean', 'planet' instead of 'country' (or maybe
'island'), 'laser' instead of 'sword', etc, and makes few, if any,
concessions to science in that translation.  But complaining about
it is like trying to batter down an open door.

One reason we like to classify books as science fiction, fantasy,
space opera -- for our own benefit -- is so we'll know the ground
rules.  "The Copper Crown" is a romance.  (Not romance as in
Harlequin, but as in a grand tale).  Science-romance, if you will.
It employs the props of science fiction, but isn't subject to the
same rules of internal and external consistency.  The book can and
should be enjoyed on its own terms.

(Another author who writes/wrote what I'm calling romances is
Cristabel.  In "The Cruachan and the Killane", she's fuzzy about
whether interplanetary travel requires spaceships, airplanes or
submarines, but it's a fun book to read, nonetheless.  Cristabel
actually pulls off something Kennealy doesn't, in that, without
weakening her stories, she avoids the notion that cutting people up
with swords is somehow more romantic than shooting them -- so she
doesn't have to rationalize the use of swords in the space age.)

I'll also advance a more positive defense of "The Copper Crown".  An
important aspect of the book is the meeting of her heroic milieu and
~modern Earth.  Most 'traditional' plot devices that allow this
(time travel, alternate worlds, lost civilizations, Terran explorers
on another planet) implicitly picture the heroic society as a
relatively primitive one.  At best we have the early Darkovan model:
"We're not primitive, we're just tired".  It makes a big difference
to the feel of the book that Keltia is vigorously competing with
traditionally technological societies on an equal footing.  If the
price of this is the misuse of space-opera cliches, it's not too
high a price to pay.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 03:54:58 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!alexande@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Alexander)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP!

Samuel R. Delany wrote a 75-page critique of The Dispossessed that
shouldn't be missed.  It was called "To Read The Dispossessed", and
was published in his collection of essays, The Jewel-Hinged Jaw
(Berkley 1977).  Delany tears LeGuin's book apart lovingly,
appreciatively, and ruthlessly -- one sentence at a time, in some
places.  He makes you appreciate the fine qualities in the book, but
also shows how it fails in many areas.

I still like The Dispossessed, even after reading Delany's essay.

Mark Alexander
...{hplabs,seismo,sun,ihnp4}amdahl!drivax!alexande

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:46:02 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP!

retief@bradley.UUCP writes:
> No, I don't remember anymore names.  What other books has LeGuin
> written in the Earth-Hain-etc framework?

bradley mentions:
   Disposessed
   Rocannan's World
   Semley's Necklace

What about:
   The Left Hand of Darkness

Scott Schwartz
Swarthmore College Computer Science Program
UUCP: ...{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz
AT&T: (215)-328-8610

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87  21:02:43 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston)
Subject: Tiptree's dead?

Has Alice Sheldon actually died, and if so, when?  I don't remember
seeing this in SF Chronicle or any of the other zines that deal in
such things....

Lisa Evans
Malden, Massachusetts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 16:26:46 EST
From: Dennis Rears <drears@ARDEC.ARPA>
Subject: Looking for A.E Vogt Books

   A couple (10) of years ago I read two books by A.E Van Vogt, with
titles I believe to be "THE WORLD OF NULL A", and "THE PLAYERS OF
NULL A".  Recently a third book came out in this series and I have
been trying to obtain the first two books again.  Does anyone know
if they are still in print (either paperback or hardcover)?

Dennis

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 87 15:00:54 EDT
From: brothers@paul.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: King in Yellow

I thought the King in Yellow was very good, not being such a fan of
the gore and gug style of horror fiction. But even you prefer
Lovecraft & co., remember that Chambers' work is the seminal work.
You'll find subtle and blatant references to the King in Yellow in
all types of fiction, even in Raymond Chandler, whose story, The
King in Yellow, I just read last night, in a monumental coincidence
whose proportion grows even now as I think about it.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 22 APR 1987 08:39:33 EDT
From: "Jeffrey A. Brooks"  <VM5F97%WVNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Bradley, Lovecraft and Chambers

Several people have mentioned the names (Hastur, Hali, etc.) common
to the writings of Robert W. Chambers, H. P. Lovecraft and Marion
Zimmer Bradley -- and since no one else as responded...

MZB wrote an article several years ago entitled "The (bastard)
Children of Hastur -- An Irreverent Inquiry into the Ancestry and
Progeny of the Hasturs"; I found it in Darrell Schweitzer's "Essays
Lovecraftian" (T-K Graphics (!), 1976).  MZB states that she got the
name Hastur from Chambers' The King in Yellow, which she read at the
age of twelve or so.  Chambers, in turn, took it from Ambrose
Bierce's short story "An Inhabitant of Carcosa".  Chambers borrowed
Hastur, Carcosa and the Lake of Hali and added several names of his
own.  MZB has sketched the histories of many of these names in
"...and strange sounding names" (AMRA, reprinted in The Conan
Swordbook, Mirage Press, 1969).

Bradley states that she had seen not a single word of H. P.
Lovecraft before using the names in a Chambers pastiche of her own.
After reading some Lovecraft, she decided that the brief references
to Hastur that she found were insufficient to discourage her from
using the names in the early Darkover novel, The Sword of Aldones.
In her essay, after a brief but virulent attack on Lovecraft's
style, she remarks, "I'd certainly rather meet MY Hasturs in a dark
alley than be confronted with HPL's."

By the way, I heartily recommend Dover's collection entitled The
King in Yellow, which contains most of Chambers' horror and fantasy
work.  It's well worth the price for the title story alone.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 00:16:48 GMT
From: umix!umich!msudoc!krj@RUTGERS.EDU (Ken Josenhans {msucl
From: Systems})
Subject: List of Original Ace SF Specials

One night at the Atlanta Worldcon, I was chatting with Terry Carr,
and I asked him if he had a complete list of the original Ace
Science Fiction Specials, which I'd been trying to collect.  Terry
said he didn't, and just at that moment a fan passing us on the
Marriott balcony said that he DID have a list.  The passing fan and
I exchanged addresses, and after the con he sent me two xeroxed
pages from some unknown fanzine.  They contain the book list
reproduced here.  If anyone wants to see the rest of the information
(book numbers, short story collection contents, commentary), send an
SASE to my mail address, given below.  (Corrections and additions
are also welcome, via paper or E-mail.)

             The Original Ace Science Fiction Specials

1967

Why Call Them Back From Heaven, Clifford D. Simak

1968

The Witches of Karres, James H. Schmitz
Past Master, R.A. Lafferty
The Revolving Boy, Gertrude Friedberg
The Lincoln Hunters, Wilson Tucker
Rite of Passage, Alexei Panshin
Picnic on Paradise, Joanna Russ
The Two Timers, Bob Shaw
Synthajoy, D.G. Compton
The Ring, Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margoff
A Torrent of Faces, James Blish and Norman L. Knight
The Demon Breed, James H. Schmitz

1969

Isle of the Dead, Roger Zelazny
The Jagged Orbit, John Brunner
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. LeGuin
The Preserving Machine, Philip K. Dick
The Island Under the Earth, Avram Davidson
Mechasm, John T. Sladek
The Silent Multitude, D.G. Compton
The Palace of Eternity, Bob Shaw
Pavane, Keith Roberts
The Black Corridor, Michael Moorcock
Fourth Mansions, R.A. Lafferty
The Steel Crocodile, D.G. Compton

1970

And Chaos Died, Joanna Russ
The Phoenix and the Mirror, Avram Davidson
After Things Fell Apart, Ron Goulart
The Year of the Quiet Sun, Wilson Tucker
Nine Hundred Grandmothers, R.A. Lafferty
A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. LeGuin
Chronocules, D.G. Compton
One Million Tomorrows, Bob Shaw

1971

The Eclipse of Dawn, Gordon Eklund
Furthest, Suzette Haden Elgin
The Traveller in Black, John Brunner
Humanity Prime, Bruce McAllister  (Cover by Davis Meltzer)
The Midnight Dancer, Gerald Conway (Cover by Davis Meltzer)
Warlord of the Air, Michael Moorcock (Cover by Davis Meltzer)

   Books purchased by Terry Carr for the series but published after
   Carr left Ace, not as specials:

The Falling Astronauts, Barry Malzberg
The Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon, Theodore Sturgeon
A Trace of Dreams, Gordon Eklund
Barefoot in the Head, Brian W. Aldiss
The Missionaries, D.G. Compton       (uncertain)
Other Days, Other Eyes, Bob Shaw     (uncertain)

Ken Josenhans
P.O. Box 6610
East Lansing, MI 48826
UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj
BITNET:  13020KRJ@MSU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Apr 87 0902-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #173
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 87 0902-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #173
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Good Sf Movies (15 msgs) &
                         Neuromancer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 09:56 EST
From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

>megabyte@chinet.UUCP writes:
>>But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?
>I would like to nominate Ursula Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven.  I
>saw it on TV, don't know if it was a movie or a "made for TV
>movie", but I had read the book some years before, and the book was
>one of the truly scary things I've ever read (beats Steven King
>drek all hollow (aaagh! duck! who left the gas on? flame-broiled,
>coming up!)).  The movie was very respectful of the book's plot,
>had great visual effects (conveyed the depopulation of the earth by
>a family gathered around a table, with most of them covered with
>cobwebs, for example), pretty good music, and was every bit as
>scary as the book, even knowing exactly how it was going to come
>out.

I remember this movie well.  It was the first movie made by PBS.  I
was in high school and had never read the book, but I was entranced
by the movie.  I ran out to the local library the next day and had
them get it on loan from another library so that I could read it.

Kaile Goodman
KGoodman@smith.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 07:57:38 PDT
From: Dave Combs <COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: re: Good SF Movies

My thanks to the net for the general comments on "The Quiet Earth".
I'd never heard of the movie, but found it easily enough at the
local video rental place.  I thought it was GREAT!  It's one of the
few movies I've seen where I was so caught up in the plot that at
the end I was convinced the movie was too short (it isn't - at 91
minutes it's close to average).  There aren't a whole lot of movies
that can spend about the first 5 minutes being totally engrossing
with no spoken dialogue at all.  All in all, a great way to spend a
Sunday afternoon.

Cheers,
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87  11:05 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Good SF Movies

One movie that I have not seen mentioned is "Fantastic Voyage".  The
cinematography was excellent, and I believe the movie won an academy
award for special effects. It features Donald Pleasence, as well as
Raquel Welch in a wet-suit (drool).

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 00:58:39 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP writes:
> Best movie of the century: BRAZIL. Not to be missed.

   I agree, this is a movie which I found to be a cut above most SF
movies that have been shown.  It's of a different atmosphere/flavor
too.  A must go see sort of movie, indeed!

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone:  (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)
UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 10:04:07 PDT
From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF movies

How about DARK STAR? After all, how many movies have you seen that
have a line in the credits:
   "Filmed on location in space" :-)

Chuck Lane
cel@cithex.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1987 12:13 PST
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: GOOD sf

    No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR.  I thougt it was one of the
best SF movies of this decade...  Also I would include ST II, and
only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV).

    As far as animated SF goes, how about FANTASTIC PLANET?  That
one was european.  With very few exceptions, Americans seem to have
a pathalogical inability to make any really good animation that's
longer than 9 minutes.  At least in this decade.  Has anyone seen
THE ADVENTURES OF MARK TWAIN by Will Vinton and his gang?

My list would also include...

   Forbidden Planet
   Sleeper
   Alien (just the first one)
   2001 (just the first one)
   Brazil
   Andromeda Strain

Richard S. Smith
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1987 15:20 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes
>Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it
>predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see.

Seconded - A nice mixture of hard science, humor and humanity.

maslak@sri-unix.arpa (Valerie Maslak) mentions:
>  THX whatever it was
>  Fahrenheit 451
>Classical dystopias both

How about a really silly SF film:

"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now
famous.  Highlights (Non-spoiler):
   An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift
       shaft.
   Bombs that argue about wanting to explode.
   A Cryogenic Captain.
but who made it??

There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was set
in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood event
that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a
post-'holocaust' story.

Two questions -
 1. What was the title?
 2. Was it based on a story?

Dick Botting
Dept Comp Sci.
Cal State U, San Bernardino, CA 92407
PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
voice:714-887-7368

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 23:10:06 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies)

cje@elbereth.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes:
>alainew@tekcae.TEK.COM (Alaine Warfield) writes:
> > [a lot of discussion over DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS]
> [a lot of disagreement over DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS]

Whoa, folks!  There are *two* DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS movies: a 1963
version with Howard Keel, available cheap on videocassette and not
very good, and a 1981 BBC television version (~4 hours) which *is*
very good and true to the book.  The BBC version shows up on the
Arts & Entertainment channel once and a while.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 17:17:41 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

megabyte@chinet.UUCP (Mark E. Sunderlin) writes:
> But, what are the well done intellegent SF movies?  As a start, I
> consider _The Quiet Earth_ an Australian SF movie from last year
> to be quality SF movie.

It is quality, but I am not sure the concept behind it is all that
good.  There is a necessary part of the "effect" shown in the film
that for me places the film more in the realm of the supernatural.
I am not sure it is a whole lot more intelligently done than
something like THE WORLD, THE FLESH, AND THE DEVIL, a similar
post-holocaust film.  (Though the latter film goes downhill near the
end.)  There are still a lot of problems with the concept, in my
mind, though it would be spoiler to discuss them here.

> What other SF movies are there?

By now many people on the net know this, but I think FIVE MILLION
YEARS TO EARTH (a.k.a. QUATERMASS AND THE PIT) comes pretty close to
being my idea of the perfect science fiction film.  That is the
third film in a series of four.  The fourth -- THE QUATERMASS
CONCLUSION -- is available now in this country on videotape is
pretty well thought out also.

PHASE IV is a darn good film about how two alien species would war
with each other, and more importantly how they would collect
intelligence about each other.  In this case it is humans against
intelligent ants.

I have heard very good things about SOLARIS but have never had the
opportunity to see it.

I would place Peter Watkins's THE WAR GAME in the science fiction
film category since its depictions of nuclear war carry it beyond
the realm of the documentary film.  It is about 50 minutes long and
it remains the scariest film I have ever seen.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 19:23:55 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: Day of the Triffids (was Re: *GOOD* SF Movies)

JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes:
>2) "It describes a world in which man's space defenses have
>   backfired and cause almost everyone in the world to go blind."
>   I don't recall anything having to do with space defenses in
>   either movie or book.  It was a meteor shower in both that
>   caused the blindness.  The time period of the book may be a
>   little in advance of "today", but the movie is certainly the
>   "today" of the mid '60s, so no space defense exist.

I haven't seen the film, but I did read the book about five years
ago (I think).  I believe that in the book, the main character
speculates that the official story of a meteor shower is some sort
of cover-up for a failure of some space-based doomsday machine.
("Pure antiproton -- absolutely pure!" -- oops, wrong context :-).
No space defenses existed in the '60s, but at the time all people
could *really* be sure of was that no *unclassified* space defenses
existed.  Where did all the classified defense spending of the
superpowers go?  An enemy could probably detect the launch of such a
defense system, but even if it did detect such a launch it would not
make that knowledge public for fear of embarrassment -- "arms gap"
and all that crap.

>3) "it has so much insight in the problems facing us today."  If
>   so, it's completely coincidental.  The problems in book and
>   movie aren't related to our present-day problems (of course,
>   since I don't live in Oregon, where the posting originated, I
>   may not have the same familiarity with giant ambulatory
>   carnivorous plants as the average Oregonian :-)).

It seems to be very relevant.
  ...ESPECIALLY during these past few years of Ronald Ray-gun and
his 10^n (where n is large) lines of weapons-system control
programmes, all with accompanying correctness proofs which one would
hope would contain absolutely no errors.
    ...if memory serves me correctly, Oregon contains a major
weapons production facility or waste dump.  (I am admittedly a bit
fuzzy on this.)

Matthew Belmonte
Internet:  <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 12:20:38 GMT
From: seismo!enea!sicsten!lhe@RUTGERS.EDU (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

A "top five" list should include "Solaris" by the late russian
director Andrej Tarkovskij (based on the novel by Stanislav Lem).

It is very different in character to most (U.S. :-) SF movies, but
in my opinion, it is almost as good as "2001". (..and these two are
the best SF movies I have seen.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 22:37:06 GMT
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

One of the best, of course, is Liquid Sky.  Duty is more important
than shrimps.

Night of the Comet could have been good if it had taken itself a bit
less (or more?) seriously.

And don't forget Buckaroo Banzai!

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 14:55:42 GMT
From: fla7@sphinx.uchicago.edu (william flachsbart)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>How about a really silly SF film:
>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now
>  famous. Highlights (Non-spoiler):
>   An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift
>     shaft.
>   Bombs that argue about wanting to explode.
>   A Cryogenic Captain.  but who made it??

John Carpenter?

>There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was
>set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood
>event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a
>post-'holocaust' story.  Two questions -
> 1. What was the title?

 This was called "The Jetty" or "The Runway" or some such, was it not?

> 2. Was it based on a story?

I think so, but don't remember which story

It was a pretty strange movie on the whole.
My favorite s-f movies:

Heavy Metal
Wizards (bias for animation shows :-)
The Last Starfighter
        (what do we do now?     we die...)
Back to the Future
Videodrome (weird but great)
Brazil
Time Bandits
Looker
Spacehunter, Adventures in the Forbidden Zone (in 3-d) B-)
2001
Star Wars
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
   (If only for the scene in which Dreyfus builds a Devil's Tower in
   his living room out of mud.)
Dark Star
Barbarella
Galaxina
   (The Blue Star... aaaaaa-aaaaaaaah!)
The Terminator
Mad Max
Real Genius (it's fictional science at least. The infamous line:
   What's that?
   Liquid Nitrogen.)

the list could go on....  but I'll mercifully stop. I have been
informed by many that my taste in movies can be described as the
following: Oh yeah, Bill. If it moves, he thinks it's great. As long
as it's in 80 mm.

Will Flachsbart
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 19:58:20 GMT
From: seismo!sdcsvax!celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim )
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies

I recommend "The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction Movies" edited by
Phil Hardy, published by Woodbury Press (ISBN 0 8300 0436 X) 1986.
This substantial book has short reviews of over 1200 science fiction
films dating from 1895 through 1985.  It also contains discussions
of general tendencies and philosophies of films for each decade
covered.  I picked up my copy from one of the discount tables at B.
Dalton.

Appendix 2 contains lists of "Top Ten" films by the contributors to
the book as well as Science Fiction authors (Brian Aldiss, Arthur C.
Clarke, Harry Harrison) and others.

Some of my favorite films:
   Forbidden Planet
   Destination Moon
   Dark Star
   Them
   Alien
   This Island Earth
   Phantom from Space

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 02:31:08 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>How about a really silly SF film:
>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now
>   famous.
>but who made it??

   Why, John Carpenter, of course. Fun movie! The chase of the alien
through the ship and the dialogue with the bomb on phenomenology are
hilarious, easily the best things in the movie.
   There's another significant name in SF films that started his
career with DARK STAR, too: Dan O'Bannon, who co-wrote it with
Carpenter. Dan also played one of the crew members, Pinback I think
it was. Later he went on to create a somewhat better-known SF film,
ALIEN (with a little help from Ron Shusett, H. R. Giger, and Ridley
Scott, of course :-).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 13:34 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Keith Anderson)
Subject: Neuromancer movie

    Is there any more information concerning the _Neuromancer_
movie?  I've seen something on MTV that consists of a yellow grid on
the screen with Apple ][ disk-drive sounds overlayed, followd by a
picture of some dragon-oid creature, and the word "Neuromancer".  If
there is anybody that knows anything about a release date or even a
date for the start of filming I would greatly appreciate it.

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Apr 87 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #174
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 87 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #174
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:

            Books - Chalker & Farmer (3 msgs) & Hambly &
                    Heinlein (3 msgs) & Kurtz &
                    Silverberg (3 msgs) & Humor in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: TUE APR 21, 1987 10.02.01 EDT
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Chalker

If anyone out there considers themselves well-read as far as fantasy
is concerned, I would appreciate the answer to this question.  In
Jack Chalkers Dancing Gods series, the witch Huspeth tells Marge of
the many lands of the world...

  "There are many lands larger than the one from which thou comest.
 There are many other continents and many other lands.  One, called
simply The Land, is so fouled up that no one from thy world will
believe it's real, even though he be there.  Another once put down a
dark force under a great wizard, and now that wizard's son, Alateen,
refights his father's battles.  From Lan Kemar to Lemoria, all the
lands that make up our world are continually threatened."

1) The first continent, The Land, is most definitely from
Donaldson's Covenant series.
2) The second, Alateen is the youth organization of Alcoholics
Anonomous, making that the Shanara series and Alanon.
3)  I know of Lankemarr, but from what series is it?
4)  What and where is Lemoria???

Any help from the peanut gallery???

Mitch

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 22:26:25 GMT
From: caron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Raymond C. Caron)
Subject: Phillip Jose Farmer

   Okay, I've just completed reading the first book in the
_World_Of_ The_Tiers_ series, _The_Maker_of_Universes_ and to my
surprise it was quite good.  Could someone tell me more about the
series, like the rest of the books and maybe some SHORT reviews of
them?  Any help would be apprceiated.

   On the Riverworld debate, just to throw my 2 cents in, it was a
good idea that like all to many writers he drew it to far out.
Maybe a good ending point would be _The_Fabulous_Riverboat_


Ray Caron
caron@rutgers.edu
{harvard|pyrnj|seismo|ihnp4}topaz!caron
Rutgers University
RPO 5973 CN 5063
New Bruinswick NJ 08903

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:24:24 GMT
From: seismo!yale!sshefter@RUTGERS.EDU (Bret A. Shefter)
Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer

jja@rayssd.RAY.COM (James J. Alpigini) writes:
>Hello out there in net-land. I just finished reading Phillip Jose'
>Farmer's "Riverworld series". (To Your Scattered Bodies Go, et al)
>and I was confused on a few points. I was hoping that someone more
>literate than I could answer them.
>
>1) Why were the people resurrected in the first place? I understood
>about the failing computer endangering the collective wathan's and
>that the "experiment" was to run for 120 years only. I was left
>somewhat in the dark as to the real purpose of the resurrections.

   I'm going to pretend I didn't read the fifth book, and respond
based on the original series only. The people were resurrected to
give them a chance to "pass on" - to have their wathans not come
back when they died. This was believed to occur when a certain level
of "ethical"-ness was reached.

>2) I do have some other critisisims (sic) which I would like to
>bounce off the net and get other opinions on.
>
>   A) I felt that Farmer did not adequately explore parent/child
>   relationships. If I were resurrected I think I would try to find
>   my Mother and Father . I should imagine most people would.

    I would imagine that most people *did* go find their mother and
father.  Certainly you did :-). However, consider that your mother
and father would be about thirty, and in turn looking for *their*
mothers and fathers (and perhaps each other as well). In turn, their
parents were looking for *their* parents, etc. You might just as
well decide to look for Noah. Not everyone can find who they're
looking for - Riverworld's a big place. And our heroes probably
realized this. I would hazard a guess that people like Burton and
Cyrano aren't too concerned with finding their roots anyway, and
that Joe Miller wouldn't care much either. Frigate seemed to be
pretty independent. Clemens was busy looking for his wife. Etc. etc.
etc. Most importantly, our heroes decided that they could either
spend their "lives" looking for relatives who might not be thrilled
to see them, or might never be found - or they could find some kind
of purpose to their existence and go after the Tower.
    Besides, looking for your parents makes pretty dull reading :)

>   B) I realize that Farmer had to draw the line somewhere but I
>   would used some "bigger" characters in the book. Einstein,
>   George Washington, Ceasar, JFK, Robert E. Lee, Charlemange,
>   Brian Boru, Ghandi, etc. What I mean is include some bigger than
>   life characters.

    Not everyone would consider George Washington a "big"
figure...but I see your point. I think what Farmer wanted to do was
pick characters that people might be familiar with, but not so much
that everything the person did would have to follow a very set
pattern. Thus Alice in Wonderland, Mark Twain, and King John - but
not a popular leader who would have strong preconceptions to
overcome.

>   C) Lastly, I can see why he would want to avoid putting Christ
>   in the book, except for quacks claiming to be Him.  But I would
>   have included someone like John the Baptist. or at least a pope
>   or apostle.

    Can't include Christ, because that opens up the issue of whether
he "died" like everyone else. Can't really have John the Baptist or
an apostle for the same sort of reason...he'll be looking for Christ
the whole time.
    BTW, he overcomes his aversion to dealing with the subject in
the fifth book, *Gods of Riverworld*, as well as *Riverworld and
Other Stories*, if I recall correctly.

>Like I said, I welcome the opinions of others on this marvelous
>series.

    Hope I've helped. I must state in all fairness that I didn't
particularly like the series. The idea is marvelous, though.

shefter-bret@yale.ARPA
shefter@yalecs.BITNET
...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter
...!{seismo,decvax}!yale!shefter

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 21:02:53 GMT
From: mtune!hou2g!scott@RUTGERS.EDU (Scott Berry)
Subject: Re: Philip Jose' Farmer

mcm2434@ritcv.UUCP (Martin Maenza) writes:
> The title of the fifth book of the Riverworld series is GODS OF
> RIVERWORLD.
>
> Just a personal note, I read this series a couple summers back and
> I felt it was a very well done work of fiction.  I recommend it to
> anyone who is looking for a good series to sink their teeth into.

How difficult is it to understand GODS OF RIVERWORLD if it's been
years since you read the rest of the series?  I enjoyed the other
books, but it's been quite some time since I read them last, and
have forgotten ALL details of the revelations in the "final" book.

Is there a "summary" in the beginning of GODS... ?

Scott J. Berry
ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 19:23:45 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Barbara Hambly's work.

mooks@bucc2.UUCP writes:
>Does anyone know anything on the status of _The_Silicon_Mage_ which
>is the sequel to this book.

Won't be out for a bit; her next book will be the sequel to THE
LADIES OF MANDRIGYN.

>I have read the first book and highly recommend it.  The book deals
>with a computer operator working for an extremely high-tech company
>who gets dragged into another world through a hole in space time.
>The other world is, of course, very magic oriented; while the
>protagonist's world is present day earth.  If you have read
>Hambly's Darwath Trilogy, you will recognize the basic premise.

I agree that I would recommend THE SILENT TOWER, but a) not as much
as her other books, and b) it has a quite different premise from the
Darwath trilogy.

There is a similarity in setup, which is what Scott is commenting
on, but the basic motivating idea behind SILENT TOWER is very
different.  In ST, she is exploring the question of what happens to
an incipient industrial revolution in a world where magic works? The
Darwath trilogy is not concerned with questions like that. Both
series have people from our world finding themselves caught up in
conflicts in magical worlds, but that's all the similarity.

I would highly recommend the Darwath trilogy and THE LADIES OF
MANDRIGYN; the four books are ties for first place among her works,
for me. THE SILENT TOWER is not as good as the others, but still ok.
DRAGONSBANE is very enjoyable. Hey, I even enjoyed her Star Trek
novel ISHMAEL :-)

Hambly writes fantasy that involves real people in real situations,
no whitewashing or cutesyness. (Can you tell I don't generally like
fantasy?) I recommend her works highly.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87  10:19 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: sources...

   When I found a Heinlein novel that I had never heard of before in
my favorite used-book store, I naturally snagged it. It's called
"The Rolling Stones", and it's not about Mick Jagger. It is
copyright 1952, and was originally published (in condensed form) in
Boy's Life magazine under the title "Tramp Space Ship".
   This is the blurb from the inside front cover:

  "Thirty-eight days out, Fuzzy Britches, the family flatcat, had
eight golden little kittens. Each was exactly like its parent, but
only a couple of inches across when flat and marble-sized when
contracted.
   Everyone, including Captain Stone, thought they were cute.
Everyone enjoyed petting them, stroking them with a gentle
forefinger and listening to the tiny purr. Everyone enjoyed feeding
them and they seemed to be hungry all the time.
   Sixty-four days later the kittens had kittens - and the
population bomb had been ignited.
   In a spaceship of limited capacities, with no port in sight, the
Stones were in for trouble..."

Sounds familiar, hmmmmmm?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 17:31:49 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!krs@RUTGERS.EDU (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: sources...

Yep.  In fact, I read in "Making of (Star Trek? Trouble with
Tribbles?)"  that, after he'd written "The Trouble with Tribbles",
submitted it, and had it accepted for the series, David Gerrold all
of a sudden recognized the correlation and penned a note to Heinlein,
who said it was no problem.  I'm sure the true ST-Trivia Experts out
there can (and will) gloss this with quoted text and better detail,
but that's the gist.

Kristopher Stephens
(408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 04:45:59 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: sources...

Just curious, but have the older Heinlein novels been forgotten?

_The Rolling Stones_
_Rocket Ship Galileo_
_The Star Beast_
_Citizen of the Galaxy_
_Revolt in 2100_
_The Puppet Masters_
_Methusalah's Children_
_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ (THIS one isn't fogotten- there've
    been posts!)
_The Door Into Summer_
_Tunnel to the Stars_
_The Menace from Earth_
_Starship Troopers_
_(one I canNOT for the life of me, remember, but it's concerning
   genetics and selective breeding for certain traits...)

and all his short stories:
_The Roads Must Roll_
_Blowups Happen_
_The Green Hills of Earth_

etc., etc.

I don't want to start flame wars about the merits of Heinlein- that
may be an annual event, but please- not YET!

I'm just curious to know if the older novels are being left out in
the shuffle with his newer ones...

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 23:20:58 GMT
From: O98%PSUVM.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Sean Owens)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books

Someone requested information as to other Deryni books.  I seem to
remember reading something on the subject here, but cna't quite pin
it down.  I have two other books than the ones listed in the
request, that contain Deryni stories.

The first is The Deryni Archives, a collection of short stories and
other stuff either directly or indirectly related to the Deryni
series, including the first draft of the first chapter of the first
book.

The other is an anthology , (either Swords & Sorcery, or Flashing
Swords, not sure which, #4, edited by Lynn Campbell, I think) which
contains a short story about young morgan helping Brion Haldane to
acquire magical powers.

The aforementioned posting about other Deryni books, mentioned
something about a book that was supposed to be out, but wasn't, or
something like that. Look for it and read it yourself.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 08:42 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus)

Chuq
   You're right, I missed that point, about it being the story of a
modern Midas. So did the teacher and the rest of the class. I see
what you mean, and I still don't want to get near that book again.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 11:43:10 PDT
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bob Silverberg's "Dying Inside."

This is also one of my all time favorites of the genre(certainly the
F of SF & F). Silverberg is a harsh realist(as in the "Book of
Skulls") and I really felt that "Dying Inside" was a very hopeful
story. Imagine what such a power would do to the average 6 year old
- not the idealistic notion of a child - BUT a real person. The
terror of being found out would be quite a lot for a kid to handle.
Knowing all of those secrets and wondering who knows that you know.

Remember when the protagonist was in Jr. High and his teacher had an
interest in ESP. To fool her he intentionally got ALL of the
outcomes wrong - a typical kid's reaction, and became suspect of
possessing ESP powers, etc...

                      *** Possible spoiler ***

The ending was beautiful I thought. He and his sister (she hated his
guts when he had the power - put yourself in her position) finally
began to have a loving relationship.

                        *** spoiler end ****

I haven't read the book in 4 or 5 years, but, I have read it 3
times, and think I will reread it ...

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 19:46:13 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!edge!walker@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Walker)
Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus)

Try Silverberg's "Lord Valentine's Castle", sequelled by "Majipoor
Cronicles" and "Valentine Pontifex".

Also an EXCELLENT short novel called "Nightwings", I've passed this
one around to friends, and they all enjoyed it.

WHAT?!? You don't like these?  Well, go figure....(:-}>

Dan Walker
Edge Computer
Scottsdale, Arizona

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:01:58 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: more humor in sf

Two more books for the "Humor in sf" category:

"The Butterfly Kid" by Chester Anderson (giant blue alien lobsters
in Greenwich Village, Reality Pills, etc.  _Very_ funny.)

"Arrive at Easterwine: the Autobiography of a Ktistec Machine" by
R.A. Lafferty (Ballantine, 1971).  (this is really more an addition
to the Lafferty list than to the humor list; although it IS quite
funny, it's also quite serious and quite good and quite Lafferty
(ok, ok, I'll be quite now :))

jed hartman
{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 09:57:19 cst
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: humorous SF/fantasy

A very funny book that comes to mind is The Fallible Fiend by L.
Sprague deCamp.  A demon is summoned by a wizard to serve for a year
and a day, but not knowing much about humans and the world, he makes
terrible mistakes in carrying out his instructions.  He tries his
best, but things just don't work out.  The rest of the book details
his troubles as he is passed from owner to disgusted owner.  Not
real deep, but fun while it lasts.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Apr 87 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #175
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 87 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #175
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 175

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:26:40 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!intelca!mipos3!bverreau@RUTGERS.EDU (Bernie Verreau
From: )
Subject: Re: CruiseCon

I hadn't intended to promote the "cruise con" idea as a great
solution to convention logistics problem, but since the discussion
continues ...

beach@msudoc.UUCP (Covert Beach) writes:
>bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (Bernie Verreau) writes:
>>One setting that seems conducive to a more relaxed gathering is
>>the weekend cruise.
> To be fair the idea has a few advantages.  Here are a few and I'm
> sure the clever can think up some more.

One other advantage I'll mention is the shipboard ambiance.  You
really do get the feeling of a "shared experience".  There's
something about the setting that's conducive to egalitarianism.  I
remember lounging in a deck chair, feet hanging over the railing,
discussing "Nightfall" [of all things] with Isaac Asimov.  In some
sense the environment puts one at ease.

> After all of this some of you are asking "Where do I sign?"  Well
> before you send in your registration let's look at the other side
> of the coin.  ...
> 1.  Small Size - A book could be written about this and other
>     articles about the new Boskone have effectively done so. Ill
>     just mention that a CruiseCon is physically limited to <2000
>     members even more rigidly than holding a con in small hotels
>     is. (NO overflow hotels)

Actually, there are exceptions even to this common sense assumption.
I sailed on the Fairsea from LA in '77 and we rendezvoused in the
Pacific with her sister ship, the Fairwind, which had sailed from
the Carribean through the Panama Canal.  The ships anchored within
hailing distance of one another, and a launch ferried guest speakers
from one vessel to the other so that all the passengers (~2500)
heard the entire lecture series.  Credit travel agent, Phil Siegler,
and Sitmar Cruises with pulling it off.  Still, there is a size
restriction, and most ships are more constrained than would be the
case at some of the larger hotels.

> 2.  Cost - Bernie Verreau said in the original posting, "I realize
>     it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities..." I wonder
>     if he realizes how much more expensive.

It has been a while since I've shopped around for cruise tickets,
but just to provide some encouragement - I took my first "eclipse
cruise" on the Canberra in '73, when I was still an undergraduate
[Michigan State, no less!].  I shared a cabin down in steerage with
three other college students - no portholes, plenty of engine noise
- but the total fare for a 15-day trip with stops at two African
ports was $450 (mostly earned from janitorial work in the Brody
complex @$1.80/hr).  That was a while back, and more recent cruises
have run 3-5x more expensive, but as with airline fares, there is
often a wide range of prices, with the cheaper space going first to
those who don't mind giving up some of the frills.  Are you sure
that accommodations for a 2-3 day event wouldn't be price
competitive?  It needn't even leave port, although that's half the
fun.

> 3.  Function Space and Programming - Just as a Cruise Ship is set
>     up to do many of the things than a con needs to do, they are
>     also not set up to do some of them.  One of these things is
>     handling multi tracks of Convention Programming.  The ship
>     expects to entertain its passengers with its fixed attractions
>     like the bar and casino.

I recall the Canberra having many programs
(lectures/movies/discussions) running concurrently, every day, for
the entire cruise.  There were ample public rooms to accommodate the
programming.  Clubs and theaters were made available during the
daytime.  One of the complaints of the shipboard staff was that our
group rarely used the facilities provided in the traditional manner.
The casino was all but abandoned by the end of the cruise.

> 4.  Huckster Room and Art Show - Read the above comments about
>     function space.  There is no, repeat no secure place on board
>     where such things can be set up and then left unattended all
>     night.

As far as security goes, I feel much safer on board a ship at sea
than in a hotel in the convention district.  The "main event" for
many of the amateur astronomers on these cruises I have been
discussing is the observation of a total eclipse of the sun at sea.
Almost everyone on board brings cameras and telescopes to record the
eclipse.  Some of the equipment is quite elaborate (gyroscopically
stabilized platforms, for example) and requires setup days in
advance.  One group from NASA had commandeered a section of the deck
for erecting a purportedly million- dollar telescope/computer
installation.  There were very few instances of theft or vandalism
reported, primarily because the ship's security kept a high profile
around the clock.  This seems to be SOP on cruises.

>   5.  Obscure Tax advantages - I dont know much about these and

Me neither.  Is it the deduction of a hotel tax?  Port cities
collect embarkation fees that may get similar tax treatment.

One other point I'd like to bring up before leaving this suggestion
to those who would prove it can't be done.  No convention or event
has a chance of succeeding unless someone with vision, resources,
and determination is there to back it up.  Merely suggesting that a
convention be held on a cruise ship isn't going to make one happen.
The organizers of Boskone seem to have a concrete idea of how things
should be done.  I applaud their efforts.  Past success justifies
continuation.  In view of the fact that many would-be convention
goers will be unable to join that select group, perhaps there will
be those who will seek to provide alternatives.  Consider this as
one possibility, only a possibility.

Bernie Verreau
microprocessor design, Intel Corp.
uucp: {hplabs|pur-ee|scgvaxd|oliveb }!intelca!mipos3!bverreau
csnet/arpanet: bverreau@mipos3.intel.com

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 21:12:35 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Re: CruiseCon

> 2.  Cost - Bernie Verreau said in the original posting, "I realize
>     it's more expensive than renting hotel facilities..." I wonder
>     if he realizes how much more expensive.  I don't remember the
>     exact figures and it would depend of course on what cabin you
>     wanted but you are talking $1000+ for the cheapest cabin
>     exclusive of travel to the port of departure and back (the
>     Norway leaves from Miami.)

To attend a regular Worldcon, one can expect to spend
   $300 round trip airfare
   $350 hotel room for 5 days
   $250 meals

   $900 total

Of course, these prices are upper estimates and experienced con
go'ers can think of many ways to lower the costs but the price of a
cruisecon is not much more than that of a regular Worldcon. While
the cost of traveling to the port is not included, once you are on
board the meals are free so that evens things out. What makes a
cruisecon expensive is the cost cutting methods that many fen use
(e.g. 12 people sharing a room) cannot be done on a cruisecon.

Danny Low
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 10:18:32 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: UK SF-cons
From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM

Does anybody know of any SF-cons that take place in the U.K.  I
would love to "try one out" but I have never heard of any in this
country (or any non-university fan clubs)).  Air fares to the U.S
are a touch expensive. . .

Richard W Rodway

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 04:26:08 GMT
From: q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: Re: UK SF-cons

Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX@Xerox.COM  writes:
>Does anybody know of any SF-cons that take place in the U.K.  I
>would love to "try one out" but I have never heard of any in this
>country (or any non-university fan clubs)).  Air fares to the U.S
>are a touch expensive. . .

You have not just an SF-con to attend, but a Worldcon.  Conspiracy
will be held in London, August 27-September 2, 1987.  I don't have
the address handy, but any University group should have it.

By the by, the name Conspiracy may be destined to cause some
confusion, as ConSpiracy is also a gaming convention, held by the
Metropolitan Fantasy, Wargaming and Science Fiction Association.
ConSpiracy II is under consideration for 1988, somewhere in the New
York area.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: Wed 22 Apr 87 09:03:07-CDT
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: minors at conventions

I think Becky Slocombe has pointed out the injustice of excluding
teenagers indiscriminately rather than the "rowdies" pretty well.
The only real argument in favor of excluding minors that I've seen
that seems convincing is the one of legal ramifications of minor
guardians etc.  (Especially in today's lawsuit happy climate -- but
no matter what you restrictions you make, there will still be some
way for some jackass to sue the convention for some obscure reason.)

But isn't it possible to simply have a release form signed by
parents of minors agreeing that they won't hold the hotel or con
responsible for accidents to their unattended kids?  That would seem
a reasonable way to at least partially deal with the "legal
guardian" mumbojumbo.  Just a suggestion... (so no flames if someone
who knows the law can say why this can't work!)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 17:03:07 GMT
From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Weather at SnobCon

oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes:
> dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>>At Boskone 24, the temperature was below freezing with a brisk 10
>>- 20 mph wind a lot of the time. Walking back and forth between
>>hotels in such weather is not my idea of fun. Imagine walking back
>>and forth several times a days between two hotels in the middle of
>>winter. Going out is a major production.  You got put on your
>>overcoat, scarf, hat, overboots, etc.
>
> <*** Sarcasm warning! ***>
>
>    Yeah, that's why all of us people who live up in the northern
> parts are so darned unhealthy.

   As a native, I don't feel too sorry for people who come here and
moan about the weather either, but there is one problem with having
to run around outside regularly at Boskone.  It would do a real
number on the type and amount of hall costumes.  Imagine some of the
naked barbarians getting dressed up to run to the hotel down the
street... Down right out of character.  I don't go for the really
miniscule costumes myself, but most of the costumes I wear aren't
ones I'd want to go outside in in Feb.  Who want to drag a long
skirt through Boston's slush?

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 22:15:14 GMT
From: seismo!sun!amdcad!sco!ericg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Griswold)
Subject: Re: Boskone (aka SnobCon)

From: castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Excerpts from the NESFA Boskone 25 Committee's tentative working
>model for next year's con:
>...
>The above was from a NESFA newsletter. Comments, anyone? (My only
>comment at this time is <retch>.)

Comments?  OKAY!  How about:

   "Bye Bye Boskone, it was fun knowing you"

Eric Griswold
{decvax!microsoft, ihnp4, ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!ericg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 15:51 EDT
From: Robert M. Gerber <RGERBER%NYBVX1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Conventions and Why Hotels get rid of them.....

  There have been a number of conventions that have lost their
hotels.  I am not going to name any of the conventions and start
arguments, but I will list the reasons why.  (These are verified
fact!)

  1) The sword fight in the hotel parking lot (outside) with steel
     blades.
  2) The couple nude in the stairwell fornicating.
  3) Unauthorized skinny dips and other pool breakins.
  4) The couple running nude through the hotel atrium and lobby area
  5) The missing vacuum cleaner motor.
  6) The dry ice in the swimming pool (Had to bechemically rebalanced
     this takes > 24 hrs)
  7) The broken plate glass window.
  8) The migrating furniture and plants.
  9) General rowdiness and noise level.
 10) Complaints from other customers (Most noticably - AIRLINES)
 11) Vandalism

Items 1,2,8 & 9 caused a con to lose a hotel after >5 years.  Items
3,4 & 11 caused a con to be blacklisted in one town (mostly item #4)
Item 11 was paid for by the perpetrators (it was an accident...who
knew silly string melded into vinal and didn't come out.)

Usually it takes more than one item, but I can think of four cons on
the east cost that have lost hotels one or more times plus a media
conmaking thinks uncomfortably for a regular SF con in another
hotel.

If you owned a hotel would you want to deal with this?

Also, I have worked on a number of conventions ranging from gopher
to committee.  I know what I am talking about in these cases.  I may
not agree with NESFA's proposed rules totally, but it is their con,
and they might not need these restrictions in the future.

One item with unknown impact is a case of fornication at worldcon
which happened in a semi-public area.  The people who did this are
unknown, but came up as a fact with a high probability of being
true.

PS: Most of the mailings I have been reading sound like a rehashing
of each other.  Lets have some sort of moritorium on mailings about
Boskone unless there is new information.  Specifically, lets wait
till nESFA posts another message.  Also would someone at NESFA be
willing to accept all comments on the future mailings and condense
them before they see SF-lovers.  It may save everyony reading and
typing time, both on the NET and at NESFA.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 22:38:42 GMT
From: seismo!sun!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave W. Berry)
Subject: Re: minors at conventions

From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>But isn't it possible to simply have a release form signed by
>parents of minors agreeing that they won't hold the hotel or con
>responsible for accidents to their unattended kids?  That would
>seem a reasonable way to at least partially deal with the "legal
>guardian" mumbojumbo.  Just a suggestion... (so no flames if
>someone who knows the law can say why this can't work!)

One reason is that at several points in time, most of them quite
recently, the Supreme Court has upheld the view that a parent can
not sign away a minor's right to legal action.  Combined with the
fact that a minor can't sign a contract...

Then again, the con has some legal right to say, "But you're the
parent and you let them go, therefore it's your responsibility not
ours.  We are responsible for basic safety, you're responsible for
the fact that your kid is irresponsible and you let him out of your
sight"

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp
dwb@Delphi
dwb@apple.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Apr 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #176
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #176
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:

          Books - Attanasio & Brooks & Chalker (3 msgs) &
                  Eddings (2 msgs) & Hambly & LeGuin & 
                  Martin & Tolkien & Book Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 00:12:50 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Radix

Has *anyone* out there besides me (and Jeff Horvath) read
A.A.Attanasio's awesome work _Radix_? (Bantam-Spectra paper, used to
be a great big thick hardcover). This may be the best book of the
80's, and no one's read it?!?

Thanks.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 00:12:50 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Wishsong

Does anyone have any idea when the hell Terry Brooks's _Wishsong of
hannara_ will EVER EVER come out in mass market paper? The book's
ONLY about 4 years old already!!! How many billion copies did it
sell in hardcover and trade?!?

Thanks.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 19:21:59 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Chalker's borrowings

>  "There are many lands larger than the one from which thou comest.
> There are many other continents and many other lands.  One, called
>simply The Land, is so fouled up that no one from thy world will
>believe it's real, even though he be there.  Another once put down
>a dark force under a great wizard, and now that wizard's son,
>Alateen, refights his father's battles.  From Lan Kemar to Lemoria,
>all the lands that make up our world are continually threatened."
>
>1) The first continent, The Land, is most definitely from
>Donaldson's Covenant series.
>2) The second, Alateen is the youth organization of Alcoholics
>Anonomous, making that the Shanara series and Alanon.
>3)  I know of Lankemarr, but from what series is it?
>4)  What and where is Lemoria???

I presume this is Lemuria.  (Thongor's?)

There's more stuff on the map: Notice the Plateau of Leng (from
Lovecraft's "Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath")?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 10:57 EST
From: nj <SQCR6W%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Chalker

"Lan Kemar", if you slur it over a bit, sounds like "Lankhmar"
(sp?), which, if memory serves, is the city where Fafhrd and the
Grey Mouser reside.  (At least, in the second half of the first
book.  I haven't gotten around to reading the rest of them.)

nj

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 23:14:12 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Chalker's borrowings

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>From Lan Kemar to Lemoria...
>>3)  I know of Lankemarr, but from what series is it?

Lankhmar: from Fritz Leiber's "Lankhmar" zillogy, about 2 roguish
heros who get in and out of trouble from their semi-legal
activities.
  I have read only _The Swords of Lankhmar_. It is pretty good and
semi-funny light reading.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 20:11:29 GMT
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Eddings and Lit Crit

I liked the Belgariad, or at least enjoyed reading it, but it
certainly deserves criticism.  The story wasn't predictable in
detail -- I didn't, say, know what anyone's name would be before
they were introduced in the text or what color their clothes would
be -- but the overall structure was one we've all seen before, and
nothing in it even threatened our expectations of the kind of story
it would be and how it would turn out.  I enjoyed reading it -- all
five volumes -- but it was never challenging.  I read most of it on
busses commuting to and from work.

Eddings supposedly "turned to the Belgariad to develop certain
technical and philosophical ideas concerning that genre [i.e.,
fantasy]".  It's hard to see what these ideas might have been.  The
book was too long and unfocused, the characters stereotypical, and
the dialogue almost painfully bland and unvaried.  It was impossible
to distinguish characters by the way they spoke.

This sort of thing has been done better before, and I'm sure Eddings
could do better himself.  Room for improvements?  Would anyone
really answer "no"?

From: harvard!linus!watmath!watnot!jrmartin@RUTGERS.EDU
> I've been no less than amused by the lame criticism's I've heard
> about the Belgariad recently.  I fully accept that there are some
> people who perhaps did not like the series, and they are quite
> entitled to their opinion just as I am.

Well, whether or not someone liked it is clearly their opinion, and
not particularly interesting in itself.  Their reasons, however, may
be worth hearing.

> To begin with, to say that the Belgariad was completely
> predictable was more than interesting.  It's very easy to say that
> you knew what was going to happen every step of the way after
> you've read the book, but I would have been more interested to
> hear them correctly predict the various surprises BEFORE they had
> read them.

The "surprises" were never particularly surprising.  They never
forced the reader to re-evaluate all that came before, there were no
revelations, no great blocks of understanding suddenly falling into
place or crumbling beneath our feet.

Sometimes, predictability, at whetever level, is fine.  Sometimes
it's part of the suspense (we know it will happen, but when?)
Sometimes other things hold our attention.  But not always.
Sometimes, we notice that we're sitting there reading a book, and
it's getting late, and there's no compelling reason not to wait
until tomorrow.

> Another minor point was their complaint that "everybody got
> married".  This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read the
> book.

Really?  I though it a fair comment even though it wasn't strictly
true.

> I could go on, but I am quite sure that I know where our prophets
> real problem with the Belgariad lies.  It was too enjoyable.  It
> was a good book and the good guys won.  It wasn't depressing.  It
> seems a common trait of our "literary experts" to only like books
> which are so depressing as to be insanity.

No, we just like books to be well written.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 11:45:17 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!agoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl Cialli)
Subject: Reviews/Opinions on new Eddings: "Guardian of the West"?

I know there has been some discussion on David Eddings and the
Belgariad as of late but nothing on the newest book (and series)
_Guardian of the West_.

Well, what did you think?  I would like to hear what some people say
about the book before I pick it up this time.  With the Belgariad,
having to wait nine months to a year between books really made me
wonder why I was doing this to myself and I should I have just
waited till all five were out...

Just in case the facts about this series aren't clear, a friend of
mine saw Eddings at a bookstore earlier in the year and he said the
Malleoran (sp?) was going to be another five books and then more two
more books to follow to explore the Prologue in depth.

Is it worth starting now or perhaps wait till it gets better/worse?
For what it is worth, although I do agree with a lot of the
criticisms of the Belgariad, I still found it enjoyable, light
reading.  I just don't like to be left hanging!

Karl Cialli
MCI International Inc.
Dept. 433/875
2 International Drive
Rye Brook, NY 10573
UUCP:{allegra,cmcl2,decvax,harvard,seismo}!rochester!ur-tut!agoe

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 19:05:17 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Barbara Hambly's work.

mooks@bucc2.UUCP writes:
>Has anyone out there read _The_Silent_Tower_ by Barbara Hambly?
>I have read the first book and highly recommend it.  The book deals
>with a computer operator working for an extremely high-tech company
>who gets dragged into another world through a hole in space time.

She's more than a computer operator; in fact, she's the top genius
programmer for a super secret defense contractor. Typical hacker
hours, etc., but she doesn't know the first thing about programming.
I like her stupid method of trying to break into somebody's account
near the end of the book.

For one thing, she can't master a simple B-Tree algorithm. Second,
her computer can try ten passwords a second, from dictionaries, baby
name books, and just randomly coming up with letters.

The security of that system must be abyssmal. I've never seen a
system that will LET you make ten tries per second. Most put in a
small, two second or so delay. And most allow you only a limited
number of tries before you're disconnected (I've seen from one to
five tries allowed). And 9 characters/password* x 10 passwords/sec =
80 chars/sec - very near the maximum of 120 chars/sec at 1200 baud.
Not much time to see if you were right.

And THEN, she notes that although trying every combination of eight
letters and numbers might take thousands of years, she's confident
that it will take only days (days she doesn't have, though).

[ *including a carriage return ]

>     The Darwath trilogy (again recommended), while similar in
>premise, is very different in plot to _The_Silent_Tower_, and is
>worth reading as well.

Is worth reading INSTEAD. I've read "The Ladies of Mandrigyn", and
it's worth it, although there is little original in it.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 22:00:41 GMT
From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin and WAKE UP!

schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) writes:
>retief@bradley.UUCP writes:
>> No, I don't remember anymore names.  What other books has LeGuin
>> written in the Earth-Hain-etc framework?
>bradley mentions:
>       Disposessed
>       Rocannan's World
>       Semley's Necklace
>What about:
>       The Left Hand of Darkness

I believe that "The Word for World is Forest" is also set in this
framework.  It's been a while since I read it, though.

Daniel R. Lance
Eastman Kodak Company
sprankle@kodak.uucp
Purdue University EE:
   lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu
   ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced
   ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 15:23:22 GMT
From: rruxqq!thumper!mike@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: George R.R. Martin query

I recently read the author's introduction to George R.R. Martin's
story "Portraits of His Children" in NEBULA AWARDS 21, edited by
George Zebrowski.  (The story comes recommended, especially if
you're a Martin fanatic like me.)  Here's the text of that intro...

"The truth of it is, writers do have peculiar relationships with our
characters.  They are our children in more senses than one.  They
are born of our imaginations, carry much of ourselves in them, and
embody whatever dreams we dream of immortality.

I can't claim to be an exception.  Abner Marsh and Joshua York [1],
Sandy and Maggy and Froggy [2], Val One-Wing [3] and half-faced
Bretan Braith [4], Kenny with his monkey [5], poor wasted Melody
[6], the improved model Melantha Jhirl [7], and the callous Simon
Kress [8], and of course my lost Lya [9].  When I type I can see
their faces.

This is a writer's story, yes, and more true than some of us would
care to admit."

Below are the character identifications I could make immediately,
but I can't place either [5] or [6].  Can anybody else?  I thought
I'd read everything Martin ever wrote, but obviously not.

[1] FEVRE DREAM
[2] THE ARMAGEDDON RAG
[3] WINDHAVEN
[4] DYING OF THE LIGHT
[5] ??
[6] ??
[7] "Nightflyers"
[8] "Sandkings"
[9] "A Song For Lya"

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.com
{decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 02:05:31 GMT
From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Tolkien: _Lays of Beleriand_ and _Shaping of Middle Earth_

Two new books by JRR and Christopher Tolkien have been released:
_The Lays of Beleriand_ and _The Shaping of Middle Earth: The
Quenta, the Ambarkanta, and the Annals_.  A fifth (_The Lost Road_)
is 'in preparation'.

Has anyone read these?  (I won't have a chance for several weeks at
least.)  Does anyone have any comments on the first two volumes of
this set _The Book of Lost Tales_ vols I and II?

I've always been a fan of Middle Earth, but I admit that I let _Lost
Tales_ sit for the last couple of years after reading about 30 pages
of Tolkien's letters and realizing that I found many of his ideas
rather repulsive.  Letting that subject aside, any comments on the
sets that his son has been editing and publishing?

The following is from the opening preface to _The Lay of Bereliand_:

'This third part of 'The History of Middle-earth' contains the two
major poems by JRR Tolkien concerned with the legends of the Elder
Days: The _Lay of the Children of Hurin_ in alliterative verse, and
the _Lay of Lethian_ in octosyllabic couplets.  The alliterative
poem was composed while my father held appointments at the
University of Leeds (1920-5); he abandoned it for the _Lay of
Leithian) at the end of that time, and never turned to it again.  I
have found no reference to it in any letter or other writing of his
that has survived... and I do not recollect his ever speaking of it.
But this poem, which though extending to more than 2000 lines is
only a fragment in relation to what he once planned, is the most
sustained embodiment of his abiding love of the resonance and
richness of sound that might be achieved in the ancient English
metre. .... The sections of both poems are interleaved with
commentaries which are primarily concerned to trace the evolution of
the legends and the lands they are set in.'

From the intro to _The Shaping of Middle Earth_:

'This book brings the 'History of Middle-earth' to some time in the
1930's: the cosmographical work _Ambarkanta_ and the earliest _Anals
of Valinor_ and _Annals of Beleriand_, while later than the _Quenta
Noldorinwa_ -- the 'Silmarillion' version that was written, as I
believe, in 1930 -- cannot themselves be more precisely dated.

This is the stage at which my father had arrived when _The Hobbit_
was written.  Comparison of the _Quenta_ with the published
_Silmarillion_ will show that the essential character of the work
was now fully in being; in the shape and fall of sentences, even of
whole passages, the one is constantly echoed in the other; and yet
the published _Silmarillion_ is between three and four times as
long.

The fifth volume will contain my father's unfinished 'time-travel'
story _The Lost Road_, together with the earliest forms of the
legend of Numenor, which were closely related to it; the _Lhammas_
or Account of Tongues, _Etymologies_; and all the writings concerned
with the First Age up to the time when _The Lord of the Rings_ was
begun.'

Anne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 15:09 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Keith Anderson)
Subject: Identity request

Does anyone know who wrote the novel _Dream_Games_?  It's about a
pair of criminals who use psychic abilities to track people down and
rob them.  I read the book several years ago, and, now that I have
just finished reading _Neuromancer_, I noticed some similarities.
Could DG be an early cyberpunk?  DG, as I remember stressed mainly
biological powers, but I do remember the mention of certain
hardwired goodies.  I was just wondering.  Also, I would like to
know if the author has written any other books on the same subject/
in the same universe.

Keith Anderson
Hampshire College

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Apr 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #177
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #177
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Good SF Films (13 msgs) &
                         THX1138 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 20:45:32 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies

As long as we're talking Rachel Welsh and SF movies, I'll suggest
_Bedazzled_ starring Dudley Moore, and Peter Cook as the Devil.
Raquel Welsh does a very believable Lust.  Fun film.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 20:47:21 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF movies

I think "Filmed on location, in space" was in _Hardware Wars_, not
_Dark Star_.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Fri 24 Apr 87 11:16:53-EST
From: Rob Freundlich
From: <S.R-Freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%WESLEYAN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: re:The Lathe of Heaven (was *GOOD* SF movies)

>I would like to nominate Ursula Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven.  I
>saw it on TV, don't know if it was a movie or a "made for TV movie"
>...

I, too, saw the TV movie, years before I knew what Science Fiction
was.  I didn't know the title of the movie, or who the author was,
or anything else about it.  Yet, last year, when I found a copy of
_The Lathe of Heaven_ lying around the house and read the back cover
(complete with scenes from the TV movie), the movie came back to me
immediately.  I particularly remembered one of the final scenes,
where everything, including the people, is in various shades of
gray.

Since the movie stuck with me (the memories were all good) for so
long, I'll have to agree and say that it qualifies as *GOOD* science
fiction.

Rob Freundlich
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 08:08:05 GMT
From: seismo!prlb2!kulcs!paulb@RUTGERS.EDU (Paul Busse')
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies

Here are a few SF-movies from the old continent. Don't expect lasers
or heroes, just good SF in the style of _1984_

_Malevil_ (Post Holocaust)
_Solaris_ (Tarkovski God bless his soul)
There's also a Belgian Movie that's called _Gejaagd_door_de_winst_
It's equivalent to _Gone_with_the_gain_ or _Gone_with_the_money_.
It's about a dioxin accident in a factory. It had the same history
as _The_China_Syndrome_(Not bad either) : during filming the plot
became reality ...

An SF - movie I loved was _The_secret_of_Nymh_ (Great plot).

I also have a question. Does Anyone remember the following plot:

" Due to two tests with Nuclear Weapons (One US and one USSR) Earth
leaves it's orbit and 'sets the controls for the heart of the sun'.
It's kind of a hot :-) story."

It's, I think, a British Movie, or at Least the place of action is
London.

paulb@kulcs.UUCP
... mcvax!prlb2!kulcs!paulb

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 19:23:26 GMT
From: cbmvax!vu-vlsi!hvrunix!sdorn@RUTGERS.EDU (Sherman Dorn)
Subject: re:  *GOOD* SF Movies

My favorite SF Movies (e.g., _The Quiet Earth_) are the ones which
keep me up at night going, "What the Hell was That?"  For similar
reasons, I think I prefer "The Prisoner" to all other TV sf.

So, the 64$ question is, What can "we" do to improve sf
entertainment?  To paraphrase from every single prose essay Harlan
Ellison has written (:-), "industry executives" mess up or producers
mess up or anybody messes up by interfering with the natural and
good creative processes involved in a TV or film production.  For
example, a good director will not change much of what a good
screenwriter does (admittedly, after the screenplay's been ripped up
in a fine comradely way several times).  Etc., etc.

My notion (and perhaps this should be in a .wanted group) is that if
enough people (without enough money) fund an independent film
company just to produce sf films -- good ones! (:-) -- perhaps we
could get some more quality films.

Or am I just dreaming?

Sherman Dorn

P.S.  Sorry, that should be "with enough money."

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 04:43:46 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Back to the Future Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>>One of the very best science fiction films I have ever seen (in
>>fact, the best) is "Brazil." I couldn't believe that "Back to the
>>Future," which is just fluff, beat it out for the Hugo last year.
>>It just goes to show what people consider "good," I suppose.
>
>It depends on what is being judged in the award.  Is it "Best SF in
>a movie" or "Best movie based on SF?"

The Hugos are always a pretty poor judge of "state of the art".
Even if something really good manages to win, it's just because the
something good had great press.  It's not at all clear which the
nominees and voters are doing, picking what they thought was best or
picking what was their favourite.  The Hugo is a popularity award,
and Back to The Future had far more viewers and probably far fewer
OFFENDED viewers than Brazil did.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 15:48:40 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

>     I would also add "The Man Who Fell to Earth" as another
>excellent science-fiction movie.  David Bowie is great in it.

I saw _The Man Who Fell to Earth_ about a year ago. I did not enjoy
it at all. It just dragged on and on and nothing happened. Or if
something did happen, the viewer was totally lost as to what it was.
  Also, Bowie neither added nor subtracted anything from the film.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 02:46:25 GMT
From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: GOOD sf

From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>     No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR.  I thougt it was one of
> the best SF movies of this decade...  Also I would include ST II,
> and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV).

FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie.  I thought ST II was a
great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real
Star Trek spirit.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 04:11:35 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike MacLeod)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

I see here and there Silent Running named as a good SF movie.

Now, I can stand hearing ships whoosh through soundless vacuum, and
Close Encounter - E.T. aliens that are so evolutionarily unfit that
they'd never make it out of the gate.  But when the plot
complication in the movie ("The plants are dying 'cause there's not
enough >sunlight<!")  is a mystery to the botanist in charge of
them, that's absurd.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 01:59:21 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>I saw _The Man Who Fell to Earth_ about a year ago. I did not enjoy
>it at all. It just dragged on and on and nothing happened. Or if
>something did happen, the viewer was totally lost as to what it
>was.
>  Also, Bowie neither added nor subtracted anything from the film.

Well, this is a question of taste, which is unarguable, but I really
liked the movie, and thought Bowie added a great deal to it.

But as a factual point, there are two versions of the movie around.
It was first released with about 1/2 hour cut out; it has been
rereleased with the cuts put back in. What was cut was about 1/2
explicit sex and 1/2 some pretty vital plot development. If anyone
is going to see it, I strongly recommend trying to find the uncut
rerelease.

And even having seen it about six times in the last ten years, two
of those being the uncut versions, there are in fact parts of the
plot that I never caught on to. But it didn't matter; it's meant to
evoke a mood, not be impervious to nitpicking of logical details. (I
mean, there is no reason for the set of bizarre rooms he is kept
in-- you know, with the pingpong table and all. But it doesn't
matter; the rooms are fragmented, stereotypes jumbled together with
no certainty, like his own state of mind.)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 23:17:42 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: *GOOD* SF movies

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu   (Dick Botting)
> How about a really silly SF film: "Darkstar" - made as a student
> project (USC) by some-one who is now famous.  ...but who made it??

John Carpenter (HALLOWEEN, THE THING, CHRISTINE, STARMAN, et alia)
and Dan O'Bannon (ALIEN, BLUE THUNDER, et alia).

> There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was
> set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood
> event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a
> post-'holocaust' story.  Two questions -
>  1. What was the title?

LA JETE'E (1963), known in translation as THE JETTY, THE PIER, or
THE RUNWAY.

>  2. Was it based on a story?

Not that I can determine.

I suppose I'm expected to list what *I* consider to be "good" sf
movies. Well, most of my choices have likely to have been listed by
others (you know, the obvious ones like FORBIDDEN PLANET, THE DAY
THE EARTH STOOD STILL, 2001:A A SPACE ODYSSEY, stuff like that).
What I'll do is to mention some films that I liked quite a bit for
various reasons, and are rather obscure, are not generally thought
of as science fiction (or fantasy), or haven't been widely mentioned
already. NOTE: these are *not* up for debate, by which I mean you
are free to disagree (I don't agree with a lot of choices mentioned
already), but I will not spend the next six months defending my
choices (some of which are bound to cause consternation) against all
comers.

ALPHAVILLE  (1965)  *
ALTERED STATES  (1980)
ANGELS IN THE OUTFIELD  (1952)  *
THE ASPHYX  (1973)
BRAINSTORM  (1983)
CARRIE  (1976)
CHARLY  (1968)
DEATHWATCH  (1983)
  [This is a real sleeper, based on D. G. Compton's THE
  CONTINUOUS KATHERINE MORTONHOE, or THE UNSLEEPING EYE.
  Stars Harvey Keitel, Max Von Sydow, and Romy Schneider.]
DRAGONSLAYER  (1981)
DR. STRANGELOVE  (1964)
EXCALIBUR  (1981)
FAIL SAFE  (1964)
GHOSTBUSTERS  (1985)
AN INSPECTOR CALLS  (1954)
IT HAPPENS EVERY SPRING  (1949)  *
IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE  (1946)
  [I even like the made-for-tv remake, IT HAPPENED ONE
  CHRISTMAS (1977).]
JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH  (1959)
LOVE AND DEATH  (1975)
THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT  (1951)
MIGHTY JOE YOUNG  (1949)
1984  (1984)
OH, HEAVENLY DOG  (1980)
POLTERGEIST  (1982)
THE POWER  (1967)
THE PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO  (1985)
SOMEWHERE IN TIME  (1980)
SPECIAL BULLETIN  (1983)
TESTAMENT  (1983)
20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA  (1954)

Films marked with an * are ones that I confess to not having seen in
too many years, and might not be as good as I remember them.

My Top SF/Fantasy Movies of All Time (two each for five distinct
sub-categories) would be:

Science Fiction:        BLADE RUNNER  (1982)
                        2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY  (1968)

Speculative Fiction:    A CLOCKWORK ORANGE  (1971)
                        BRAZIL  (1985)

Fantasy:                KING KONG  (1933)
                        THE WIZARD OF OZ  (1939)

Supernatural Fantasy:   THE LAST WAVE  (1977)
                        RESURRECTION  (1981)

Adventure Fantasy/SF:   RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK  (1981)
                        THE ROAD WARRIOR  (1982)
                        ALIENS  (1986)
        [Can't knock it done to two.]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 06:42:55 GMT
From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) says:
> For pretty good ones, how about:
>       Brazil
>       Charley

Have seen neither, but heard they were great (especially "Brazil").

>       The "Mad Max Trilogy"

 Saw "Mad Max" and "Beyond Thunderdome", they really weren't all
that great.  Not really science fiction, for that matter.... the
Bomb is, alas, science fact.

>       Testament

 isn't really science fiction (see above, about the Bomb).

>       Sleeper

YES!!!! I have seen this Woody Allen film exactly twice. Each time,
I alternated between goosebumps and uneasy laughter. This is one of
the all-time greats, folks, if you haven't seen it, SEE IT! I'm
heading right on down to my local video store to see if they can dig
this one up...

>       Zelig
>       The Last Wave
Neither are particularly science fiction.

Eric Green
elg%usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg
Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 22:34:36 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

One of my favorite SF (fantasy?) movies is Jittlov's "The Wizard of
Speed and Time." Does anyone know the status of his "The Wizard of
Hollywood"? The last time I spoke with him he said the special
effects were taking forever and it should be out this fall. I don't
think it will be.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 01:08:19 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

ccplumb@watmath.UUCP (Colin Plumb) writes:
> I remember hearing that it was something George Lucas did really
> early (sorry, no hard date), and, kind of interesting, I recall a
> scene in Star Wars when Luke gets into a stormtrooper's uniform,
> the control tower calls him and says "THX 1138!  THX 1138!  Why
> aren't you responding?"
>
> Can someone refute or validate these claims?

   You're right on both points.  The Star Wars line was a deliberate
pun on this previous movie.  I remember reading the book (Ben Bova)
and seeing the movie late a night too.  Very strange but engrossing
nonetheless.  It is basically a retelling of _Brave_New_World_ in a
slightly different setting, with obvious differences in some places
(like the government's attitude toward sex).  I mean this in the
sense that the overall theme was the dehumanization of human society
through making people artificially happy and an overemphasis on
efficiency and social control (including population and genetic
control).
   If I remember correctly, Lucas did this while he was in film
school.  Coppola liked it and pursuaded Lucas to expand it to the
length that you saw.  I never hearing much about this movie - maybe
it was too bizarre for some people.  Reading the book helps, though
some of the stuff you have to actually see to appreciate.
   Correct if I've made any mistakes.

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone:  (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)
UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 04:38:34 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: THX 1138

hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes:
>   You're right on both points.  The Star Wars line was a
> deliberate pun on this previous movie.  I remember reading the
> book (Ben Bova) and seeing

   Well, I goofed.  The line was not '...THX1138' but something else
as pointed out by someone else.  However, the line really was
'..THX1138...' in the book by Lucas.  I hope I'm right.

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone:  (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)
UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Apr 87 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #178
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 87 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #178
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:

           Books - Bradley & Capek & Donaldson (2 msgs) &
                   Farmer & Hansen (2 msgs) & L'Engle &
                   Tiptree (2 msgs) & Van Vogt &
                   Humorous SF (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 17:55:22 GMT
From: dzoey@umd5.umd.edu (Joe Herman)
Subject: Originality

I picked up a copy of MZB's Swords and Sorceress I the other day.  I
was pleasantly surprised.  I had expected the standard S&S
collection of short stories with all the male gender words changed
to female gender words.  This (thankfully) was not the case.  Oh, a
couple of the stories are like that, but the majority show a unique
female perspective that I rarely see in other writing.  It made the
collection much more interesting since the stories had some familiar
features (it is S&S after all), but some of the motives were
different. To me, it showed that there was more than one way to
solve a problem.  Very interesting...I can't wait to pick up volumes
#2 and #3.

dzoey@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 14:48:00 GMT
From: harvard!ima!inmet!janw@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by

allbery@ncoast.UUCP writes:
>R.U.R. is credited as the first story to use robots. As for calling
>them that: "robot" is a westernization of the Czech word for
>"worker". (It should be noted that the R.U.R. ``robots'' were
>actually biological in nature (Martri puppets, anyone?), not what
>we call robots).

One or two inexactitudes here. R.U.R. is a play, not a story.
"Robot" is not a westernization of the Czech word for worker, but
was a new coinage in the Czech language, based on the root of the
Czech word for "work". The word was suggested to Capek, the author
of R.U.R., by his brother, as described in Capek's memoirs.

Robots were, indeed, biological - rather like androids in modern SF.

BTW: R.U.R. is an abbreviation for "Rossum's Universal Robots".
Rossum invented the things in the play; his name also means
"reason". So, in English it could be rendered as "Reason's Universal
Workmen". The play is an allegory.

Personally, I feel that, except for a great new idea, the play is
much weaker than some other science fiction of Capek.  It was not
labeled as such, but it was good, and would be well worth publishing
and reading as SF now.  *The War against Salamanders* is, perhaps,
the best.

BTW again, Capek's name has a cap like inverted '^' over the C, and
is pronounced Chah-pek.

Jan Wasilewsky

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 09:19 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Stephen Donaldson req.

   Concerning _Mirror_of_her_Dreams_, I read it cover to cover in
one sitting.  A long sitting.  Not because I liked it, but because I
kept hoping something would actually happen.  I kept hoping
something would occur to make me feel like I hadn't wasted 6 hours
reading the book.
   It has a plot, but none of the plot lines come close to being
resolved.  The main characters are interesting...I think.
Development of characters over this very long book is summed up by
"Apprentice tries to grow out of clumsiness, and does a mediocre job
of it", and "Milquetoast tries to get some backbone, and does a
mediocre job of it."
   I am going to read the next installment when it comes out.  I
think enough of Donaldson's other works to give him this much
chance, but I would have enjoyed _Mirror_of_her_Dreams_ a lot more
if it had been half as long.

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 10:04:53 GMT
From: crew@decwrl.dec.com (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: Stephen Donaldson req.

PORTERG@VCUVAX.BITNET writes:
>...I think enough of Donaldson's other works to give him this much
>chance, but I would have enjoyed _Mirror_of_her_Dreams_ a lot more
>if it had been half as long.

As I understand it, the original drafts for Lord Foul's Bane & The
Illearth War were each something on the order of 700pp.  Del Rey
basically said, ``Too big... start cutting...''

As a writer's reputation/career/following advances, it probably gets
harder and harder for an editor to insist on things like this...

Roger
Crew@sushi.stanford.edu
decwrl!crew

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 02:57:27 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Phillip Jose Farmer

caron@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Raymond C. Caron) writes:
>       Okay, I've just completed reading the first book in the
> _World_Of_ The_Tiers_ series, _The_Maker_of_Universes_ and to my
> surprise it was quite good.  Could someone tell me more about the
> series, like the rest of the books and maybe some SHORT reviews of
> them?

I read these a long, long time ago. Farmer did the same thing he did
in the Riverworld series - took an interesting idea, dragged it out,
and by the end started trivializing the whole thing.

I don't know exactly how many there were; they are OK up to but
*not* including _The_Lavalite_World_, which was without a doubt the
worst book I have ever read. If you read it, expect to delve without
warning into complicated explanations of Life, the Universe, and
Everything in the context of the books, and have to remember all of
the (implausible) details to keep following the action. Details like
the "moosoids" they ride on keep hitting you over the head.

Up to then the series was not tooooo bad, although in the previous
book he started getting into long drawn-out action sequences that
seemed to have no point.

John

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 21:04:32 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Identity request

Gort@UMass.BITNET writes:
>Does anyone know who wrote the novel _Dream_Games_?

Karl Hansen, _Dream Games_, Ace 1985.  There is another book set in
the same universe, I think a prequel, but I don't recall the name
offhand.

A caveat to the unaware: Dream Games is not a novel for the light of
heart - some scenes are fairly obscene.

Scott R. Turner
ARPA:  srt@ucla
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 04:09:24 GMT
From: BCSCHONE@pucc.princeton.edu (Brian Schoner)
Subject: Re: Identity request

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU  writes:
>Gort@UMass.BITNET writes:
>>Does anyone know who wrote the novel _Dream_Games_?
>Karl Hansen, _Dream Games_, Ace 1985.  There is another book set in
>the same universe, I think a prequel, but I don't recall the name
>offhand.

The novel in question is _War Games_ - publisher and date unknown
offhand.  It is set in the same universe as _Dream Games_, and
features the same extensive sex and outrageous coincidences (i.e.
everyone the main characters ever knew winds up in the same unit of
the Combrid Corps, but they don't recognize each other until the
end.  Sound familiar?...)  The plot of _War Games_ is, as I recall,
somewhat better than that of _Dream Games_, but don't quote me on
that.  I read both books some time ago, and it seems to me that Mr.
Hansen ran out of names - as I recall, the characters in both books
have the exact same names but bear no apparent relation to each
other.

Brian Schoner

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 19:38:58 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: L'Engle and the non-trilogy

From: <DAVIDLI%SIMVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Dave Meile)
>    I'd like to point out that not ALL stories have to be tightly
> coupled.  ... Why demand that all books by an author conform to
> some marketing idiot's idea of what sells?  The
> trilogy/quatrology/quintology is vastly over-rated.  In many ways,
> I PREFER to read books that are only loosely linked to each other.
>   Other genres of fiction don't have the fixation with trilogies
> that the science fiction/fantasy readers have come to expect.  I
> also read most any Nero Wolfe/Sherlock Holmes novel/short-story I
> can get.  They are complete books, in and of themselves ... and
> the same can be said for the "non"trilogy of L'Engle.

Though you don't indicate whom you're talking to, I suppose you
meant me, since I "complained" (which is much too harse a word)
about the lack of connections between the later books and the first.

You didn't really understand what I was getting at. I don't care if
they form a "tightly connected" trilogy or not. No, I don't demand
that each picks up the story where the previous one left off, or
whatever. And the "marketing idiot's idea of what sells" point is
silly, since the books *are* marketed as a trilogy.

When you write a novel about some characters, one of the things you
expect (or at least, *I* expect) is that the characters grow and
learn from their experiences. When an author writes a second novel
with characters from the first, I expect that they go into the
second story with the experiences from the first shaping their
actions. If not, why bother to use the same characters?

Some folks disagree with my contentions, but I still feel that when
the Murry kids encountered the strange goings-on in A WIND IN THE
DOOR and THE SWIFTLY TILTING PLANET, they acted like they'd never
had a weird adventure before. Their encounter with the Brain should
have given them some insight on how to deal with the Eythroi, yet
they seemed to forget that their encounter with the Brain ever
happened. Only the most superficial references connect the events of
the three books.

Contrast this with another series of hers, the Austin Family novels.
In each one, the characters behave in ways that take into account
what has gone before. For example, Vicki Austin's reactions to
Zachary Gray in A RING OF ENDLESS LIGHT were based on what she knew
of him from THE MOON BY NIGHT. If these books were like the "Time
Trilogy", Vicki would have run into Zach in RING as if for the first
time, not remembering that she met him before.

If you don't agree with my position, like some others here, then
fine, we'll agree to disagree. But please don't imply that my
complaint makes me a drooling zombie about series books and
trilogies.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 16:48:31 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Tiptree's dead? (doubtful! also Terry Carr)

>Has Alice Sheldon actually died, and if so, when?  I don't remember
>seeing this in SF Chronicle or any of the other zines that deal in
>such things....

IF it has happened, it has happened very recently. I've heard no
word of it from any of my sources, and on none of the networks, so I
consider it rather doubtful.  The only person I know of who has died
in SFdom recently is Terry Carr, who died in early April. It could
be someone got names mixed up.

For those who are interested, I'm planning on doing a series of
appreciations for Terry in OtherRealms #16.  If you want to
contribute to this, drop me a line.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 21:13:16 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Tiptree

From:   puff!williams   (Karen Williams)
> Something I found ironic was Harlan Ellison saying, in _Again,
> Dangerous Visions_, that while Kate Wilhelm was the woman to watch
> in the next few years, James Tiptree, Jr., was the man to watch.
> (By "to watch" he meant that they were the best of the
> up-and-coming.)

Even more embarrassing was Bob Silverberg's *faux pas*. Around the
early 70's, the speculation that Tiptree was a woman started making
the rounds, mostly based on the fact that a lot of folks could not
believe that a man could've written "The Women That Men Don't See".
In Tiptree's second collection, WARM WORLDS AND OTHERWISE (1975),
Silverberg wrote an introduction, "Who is Tiptree, What Is He?" that
mentioned this rumor, and denied it flatly, stating with a
completely straight face that it was clear to him that there was no
doubt that Tiptree was male.  I don't think he's ever been able to
live it down since.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1987  01:31 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: Dennis Rears <drears%ARDEC@eddie.mit.edu>
Subject: Looking for A.E Vogt Books

   The first two are in print in paperback, although it wouldn't
hurt to check used book store also.  The third book, alas, is also
in print, and is nowhere near the quality of the first two.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87  11:00:32 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy R. Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Humourous sf

Apart from the obvious Douglas Adams works the only other funny
literature I can think of offhand is COSMICOMICS by Italo Calvino.
Cosmicomics is a collection of short stories with similar plots but
different situations.  It's difficult to describe it without
spoiling it but I'll try. Italo Calvino takes known physical laws
and puts them to uses you would never imagine, using odd properties
to cause strife and comic relief.

MILD SPOILERS FOLLOW

In one of the stories there is a "man" who life-span is millions of
years long. One day he does something embarrassing. Luckily, there
is no-one else around to see it. 50,000 years later he receives a
message from another planet 50,000 light years away saying "I SAW
YOU!". Deeply hurt, he sends an apology, but it will take another
50,000 years to reach its destination.

END MILD SPOILERS

This is typical of Cosmicomics stories.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 04:08:29 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Funny SF

"Papa Schimelhorns Yang", be Reginald Bretnor.  There is a
collection out that has that story, plus several other "Papa"
stories.

The "Ferdinand Feghoot" short ( very short ) stories by Grendal
Brierton are funny.  ( Yes, I know about anagrams... ).

I seem to recall that the "Captain Schuster" stories by Sam
Something- or-other have some funny parts.

Also, the "Chap Foey Rider" stories by Hayford Pierce.

Tim Smith
sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 87  14:49:35 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston)
Subject: Humor in SF

 The funniest SF book I ever read was The Vain Robot, by Henry
Kuttner (another undeservedly obscure author of the Golden Age).  It
concerned an inventor who could only invent when drunk, and how his
inventions always appeared after a binge without instructions or any
indication of what they were for.  I particularly recall one
delicious line: "Five minutes later, Gallagher was singing a duet
with his can opener."

I think the thing came out from Lancer, or some such ridiculously
obscure imprint, which is a shame.  Absolutely hilarious.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 04:20:59 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!percival!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard
From: Erickson)
Subject: Re: more humor in sf

>hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) writes:
>Two more books for the "Humor in sf" category:
>"The Butterfly Kid" by Chester Anderson (giant blue alien lobsters
>  in  Greenwich Village, Reality Pills, etc. _Very_ funny.)

This book has two "sequels" that are just as strange as it was.
   "The Unicorn Girl" by Michael Kurland.
      (note that both Anderson & Kurland are _characters_ in
      both books! And this one has a person by the name of
      Tom Waters... which leads us to--)
   "The Probability Pad" by T.A. Waters
      (yes, all _three_ of them are in this one....)

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Apr 87 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #179
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 87 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #179
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: SUN MAR 29, 1987 20.46.12 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek

Ron Singleton writes :
> For those at or above the rank of Lieutenant Commander the rank is
> normally used, with a Lt. Cdr. being called "Commander"

Both the fact that Lieutenant Commander Scott is called just that,
and also that through the change from series to movies, when Spock
goes from Lt. Cdr. to full Commander he retains the title of "Mr."
leads me to believe that the title is probably reserved for the
Sciences section of Star Fleet.  In addition, though the Movie STII
tells us that Saavik is a Lt. Cdr., the book starts with her as a
Lieutenant, still considered a Mister.  Considering the fact that
she is crossed between the science and command branch of SF, her
title of 'Mister' wouldn't be out of hand.

Not to beat a dead horse but Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, and Janice Rand
all hold a rank of Lt. Cdr. or above during the course of the four
movies and none are called 'Mister.'

Mitch
MFL1@LEHIGH

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 19:07:18 GMT
From: ur-tut!jmpi@rutgers.edu (John Pisello)
Subject: Re: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek

I am not a Navy ROTC, but I *am* an Air Force ROTC, so I think I'm
pretty close on this one.  Anyhow, we use "Mister" to address
anyone, regardless of rank.  It all comes down to a prohibition
against using familiar forms of address while on duty (i.e., first
names).  As for Savvik, it seems to me that calling her Mister is
just the writer's way of making her stand apart from the rest of the
crew.  She is, after all, half Romulan.  It adds to the mystique of
her character.

On a *totally* unrelated note: Am I missing something here?  In all
the discussions on the "Man Trap" episode, all you netters
(netties?) have been referring to Lt. Green as a "redshirt," yet he
wore gold (I just saw the episode last saturday).  I take it you use
this term to mean the obligatory "one-show-crewman-who-dies-so-
Kirk-can-try-to-act-grieved-at-the-death-of-yet-another- crewman"
(whew!  what an adjective!) type, right?

John Pisello
University of Rochester Computing Center
ARPA:  jmpi%UR-TUT@SEISMO.ARPA
BITNet:  jmpi_ss@UORDBV.BITNET
UUCP:  jmpi@UR-TUT.UUCP
US Mail:  P.O. Box 28858  River Station  Rochester, NY 14627

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 87 20:14:41 GMT
From: yale!sshefter@rutgers.edu (Bret A. Shefter)
Subject: Re: "Mister" Saavik in Star Trek

cs2633ba@izar.UUCP writes:
>MFL1@LEHIGH.BITNET writes:
>>Not to beat a dead horse but Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, and Janice Rand
>>all hold a rank of Lt. Cdr. or above during the course of the four
>>movies and none are called 'Mister.'
>Give me a break.  I've definitly heard 'Mr. Sulu' at least three
>times In ST-I and II.

    Not to mention Mr. Chekov, also heard in STI, II, and IV, if
memory serves (which it probably doesn't)...
    I gather this stemmed from STII, in which Saavik was called Mr.
Saavik to emphasize that the Federation is so advanced that it
considers everyone to be equal, and that Mister, like Doctor, has
become gender-independent. Unfortunately, this falls through
because, on the show, people *definitely* made a distinction.
Also, Kirk calls people "mister" (by itself) when he's mad at them,
sometimes, but only if they're male (I admit it would have sounded
silly in *Spock's Brain* for Kirk to rush in and yell, "Okay,
mister, where's my First Officer?" :) Still, it's an improvement
over "Okay, sister..." :) :) :)
    I have no idea why they didn't simply call her "Lt. Saavik" (as
I think she was), the way they called Lt. Uhura just that in the
episodes. Or, when in doubt, how about "Commander"? Everyone seems
to be a Commander nowadays, any- way...why not use it as the
official title for someone of whose rank you are unsure (ugh! Would
my English professor have a ball with that!)?
    Or, is Commander really a billet?... :)

shefter-bret@yale.ARPA
shefter@yalecs.BITNET
...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter
...!{seismo,decvax}!yale!shefter

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 87 09:34 EST
From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
Subject: Star Trek 4:  the Universal Translator and the Humpback

From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
>    In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their
>magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing?  ...
>If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud
>("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*,
>surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish?
>whalese?).

The Star Trek novel "The Tears of the Singers" by Melinda Snodgrass
used the same premise.  In this book the explanation was that the
universal translator produced "gibberish" because parts of the
Singers' "song" was ultrasonic, and not picked up by the translator.

Early on in the book, Spock runs a tape of the song thru the
computer and it comes up with three species which produced similar
sounds.  Among them was the "now extinct humpback whales of Earth".

Kaile Goodman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 87 09:10:23 -0700
From: Glenn Hyman <hyman@ICS.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #156

Did anyone ever stop to think that the reason the universal
translator didn't work for one major reason. The probe wasn't
talking to us, it was talking to the whales in every case the
translators have been used the subjects were talking directly to the
persons with the translators. Well?????????? FLAME ON!!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 87 13:00 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Intense stupidity on the part of television executives.

Well, I've read the postings on Star Trek: The New Generation, and I
must comment that it sounds like it is going to be intensely stupid!
It seems typical of the Hollywood executive mentality, even though
it is allegedly being produced in a freer environment.  Consider:
Can't you see the producers sitting around and saying "Well, the old
enterprise was REAL BIG.  We'll make the NEW Enterprise TWICE as
big!"  "Great concept!  I say run with it!"

That cast list reads like a who's who of stereotypes.  An android
named 'Data'?  Give me a break!

The enduring mystique of the original Star Trek was that it took
some risks in terms of characterization and plot.  The new series
sounds like it's going to fall back on what is now formula.  I have
given up hope on Television for SF.  Ater the gut-wrenching horror
of shows like Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers, intelligent SF
seems to have a snowball's chance in hell.

Of course the occasional Lathe of Heaven or Max Headroom certainly
give one hope...hope that is dashed when one reads the plot synopses
for Star Trek: The New Generation.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 87 18:38:47 GMT
From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Not the gay discussion)

A couple of extras bits about the info Rich posted on ST:TNG. These
were obtained from an interview done by Harlan Ellison with David
Gerrold and D.C. Fontana a month or so ago on his Mike Hodel's Hour
25 radio show.

The captain's name is now Jean-Luc rather than Julian, and will be
called Luke for short. He's not supposed to be that thrilled about
kids in general.

Gerrold's script will be dealing with the theme of "what do you do
with an infected population". This was stated to be analogous to the
current AIDS situation.

Somewhat surprisingly to both myself (who phoned in the question)
and to Harlan, neither Fontana or Gerrold were willing to reveal the
names of any writers for the show over the air other than
themselves.  This attitude was attributed to both not wanting to
disappoint writers/fans if a script got killed (Harlan made comments
about finding this a bit incredulous), and probably more importantly
(my interpretation), since most of these writers are based in LA
where the show is broadcast, they didn't want them getting harassed
by fans.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 87 21:53:32 edt
From: cd0v#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham)
Subject: And The Children Shall Lead

Ok here's one for you rationalizers:

In the Star Trek Episode, "And the Children Shall Lead" when Kirk
and the other series regulars still believe that they are orbiting
Triacus, when in reality they are in deep space, Kirk orders two
security officers to relieve the two that were down on Triacus.
However, after "beaming down" the two security officers, they try to
bring the other two aboard. Of course, they can't get them. It is at
this time that they realize the Enterprise is no longer in orbit of
Triacus. (Two red shirsts have just been beamed into a vacuum and
hence are dead. (poor redshirts :-) )

At the end of the episode, after the Gorgon has been defeated, Kirk
orders that the ship proceed to Starbase X (I forgot the number.)
Kirk, being a responsible person, seems to have marooned two of his
security officers on Triacus!!!!

Chris Durham
Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu
BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma
usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 16:52:23 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: ST:TNG Special Effects

Special effects for Star Trek:The Next Generation will be done by
Industrial Light and Magic (ILM to you initial-lovin folks).  The
report comes from today's USA Today (4/21).  This will be ILM's
first television series work.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 05:28:37 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!jmg6805@RUTGERS.EDU (John M. Grabiec)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

I'm new to the system, and don't know if this has been said before,
but here goes.  I read in todays paper (USA today), that in the new
series, and I quote, " ... the humans have made peace with the
Klingons, who'll be part of the crew ..."

The article also goes on to say that the Enterprise " ... will be
roomier, allowing each crew member about 1500 square feet of living
space..."

These items were revealed by the co-supervising producer, Robert
Justman in Los Angelos.

ps. The series will premiere The weekend of Oct 3-4 with a two hour
pilot.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 04:57:02 GMT
From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation (Not the gay discussion)

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says:

>CAPT. JULIAN PICARD -- A caucasian man in his 50's who is very
>     youthful and in prime physical condition.  Born in Paris, his
>     gallic accent appears only when deep emotions are triggered.
>     He is definitely a 'romantic' and believes strongly in
>     concepts like honor and duty.  Capt. Picard commands the
>     Enterprise.  He should have a mid-Atlantic accent, and a
>     wonderfully rich speaking voice.
>NUMBER ONE (AKA WILLIAM RYKER) -- A 30-35 year old caucasian born
>     in Alaska.  He is a pleasant looking man with sex appeal, of
>     medium height, very agile and strong, a natural psychologist.
>     Number one, as he is usually called, is second-in-command of
>     the Enterprise and has a very strong, solid relationship with
>     the Captain.

Both male, both white.  Apparently one American and one
French-American.

>LT. COMMANDER DATA -- He is an android who has the appearance of a
>     man in his mid 30's.  Data should have exotic features and can
>     be anyone of the following racial groups: Asian, American
>     Indian, East Indian, South American Indian or similar racial
>     groups.  He is in perfect physical condition and should appear
>     very intelligent.

Possibly Oriental in appearance, but not really human.

>LT. TANYA YAR -- 26 year old woman of Ukranian decent who serves
>     as the starship's security chief.  She is described as having
>     a new quality of conditioned-body-beauty, a fire in her eyes
>     and muscularly well developed and very female body, but
>     keeping in mind that much of her strength comes from attitude.
>     Macha has an almost obsessive devotion to protecting the ship
>     and its crew and treats Capt. Picard and Number One as if they
>     were saints.

Nice of them to make her Ukranian instead of Russian.  They got at
least one good idea for the cast.  But she's still from a place in
what is now that self-important superpower, the Soviet Union.  Or
does "Ukranian descent" mean she isn't really from the Ukraine?  If
so, I just hope she isn't *yet another* American.

>LT. DEANNA TROI -- An alien woman who is tall (5'8" - 6') and
>     slender, about 30 years old and quite beautiful.  She serves
>     as the starship's Chief Psychologist.  Deanna is probably
>     foreign (anywhere from Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian,
>     Icelandic, etc.) with looks and accent to match.  She and
>     Number One are romantically involved.  Her alien "look" is
>     still to be determined.

"Foreign" means European or Latin-American; "exotic" means alien or
android; "Oriental" is not in the available vocabulary, except to
describe an "exotic"(qv) physical type; "African" is not a word.

>WESLEY CRUSHER -- An appealing 15 year old caucasian boy (need
>     small 18 or almost 18 year old to play 15).  His remarkable
>     mind and photographic memory make it seem not unlikely for him
>     to become, at 15, a Starfleet acting-ensign.  Otherwise, he is
>     a normal teenager.
>
>BEVERLY CRUSHER -- Wesley's 35 year old mother.  She serves as the
>     chief medical officer on the Enterprise.  If it were not for
>     her intelligence, personality, beauty and the fact that she
>     has a natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might
>     not have agreed to her request that Wesley observe bridge
>     activities; therefore letting her son's intelligence carry
>     events further.
>
>LT. GEORDI LaFORGE -- a 20-25 year old black man, blind from birth.
>     With the help of a special prosthetic device he wears, his
>     vision far surpasses anything the human eyes can see.
>     Although he is young, he is quite mature and is best friends
>     with Data.  Please do not submit any 'street' types, as Geordi
>     has perfect diction and might even have a Jamaican accent.
>     Should also be able to do comedy well.

Why state the obvious?  What else are black actors normally
*expected* to be able to do?  And I can't help but notice that the
Black is also the Handicapped Person, so he's two for the price of
one.  Raised "consciousness" ought to be accompanied by better
sense.

>The original Alexander Courage theme will be used, plans are to
>still split the infinitive, but to change the last line to: "...to
>boldly go where no ONE has gone before"

Are aliens included in this category ("no one")?  I hope not!

     Their vision may extend into outer space, but they seem to have
blind spots big enough to pilot the new, doubly-large Enterprise
through where our own planet and species are concerned.
     Now that I think of it, the captain and "Number One" are
probably both male because older males can have more "sex appeal"
than older females.  Do they really think that it's necessary for
their characters to walk like striptease "queens" in order to be
liked by the audience?  I hope that Dr.  Crusher is at least
permitted to appear in uniform! ;-)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Apr 87 1031-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #180
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 87 1031-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #180
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 13:12:02 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: sources...

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>  Just curious, but have the older Heinlein novels been forgotten?
>  I'm just curious to know if the older novels are being left out
>  in the shuffle with his newer ones...

I was in one of the local chain bookstores recently, and they had a
bunch of what appeared to be newly reprinted Heinlein novels, with
different covers (at least from my collection). They had the Rolling
Stones, Door into Summer, I Will Fear No Evil, Space Cadet, and
several others.

Ned Danieley
ndd@duke

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 23:27:50 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Here's a little essay that I found lying around in some old obscure
pamphlet-thingy with no author and no copyright anywhere to be seen,
so I am assuming it's okay to reprint it. It is, in my opinion, a
logical, systemmatical, well documented criticism of Heinlein's _The
Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. I thought you out there in netlandia
might be interested in seeing it, so I typed it in and up(?)loaded
it, etc., etc.
  I pretty much agree with most of what this essay says. It seems to
me that Heinlein is usually good at writing a very *interesting*
story, but I often disagree with a lot of his underlying ideologies,
attitudes, and treatment of certain subject matter (esp. his
treatment of women, though this essay mentions nothing about that).
  It's been a while since I read this book, but the essay seems
accurate from what I remember. I'd appreciate hearing what all you
folks think about it's position and/or my position on this book or
Heinlein in general.
  Hope you enjoy it, and let's try not to flame *too* much. Note
that this posting is very low-key. People keep trying to suck me
into flame wars recently (which it is not too hard to do, if I feel
wronged). OK?

             ***** SPOILER ALERT -- SPOILER ALERT *****

Heinlein: Trapped in a Cage of his Own Design

     Author Robert Heinlein presents in his book The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress a society which, presumably, is meant to be a Utopian
ideal: a "rational anarchy." The reader is constantly told that
Luna's (The Moon's) anarchy is much more civilized than the
societies of barbaric Terra (Earth), which is dominated by large
bureaucracies much like that of the United States on the real Earth
of today. Luna's people are much happier in their freer exercise of
will, and above all, Lunar society is virtually crimeless and
extremely "polite." The book also urges the reader to reject
authority. By demonstrating that, in fact, it is Luna that has the
barbaric society and Terra that is civilized, and that the book is
filled with other ideological contradictions as well, I will show
that Heinlein has managed to discredit himself and is not to be
trusted as the authority on the worlds in his own novel.

     Lunar society is not ruled in a civil manner -- it is an
anarchy. Anarchy is the oldest and most primitive form human society
can take, dating back to the emergence of the species.  People on
Luna fear their fellow man, because at the least provocation a
person is likely to eliminate someone he does not like by throwing
the offender out the nearest airlock, where said offender will
involuntarily "breathe vacuum." There are many examples of this
mentioned in the book (Stuart LaJoie (a close call): "'...you almost
breathed vacuum tonight.'" (129); unnamed "pinhead," (159); Wright
(implied): "Never saw Wright again." (278)). Heinlein praises the
inherent "politeness" in such a society: "Tourists often remark on
how polite everybody is in Luna -- with unstated comment that
ex-prison shouldn't be so civilized," (17) but this politeness is
only the product of the constant fear of their neighbors that people
on Luna must live in. People stay polite to stay alive, since a
person risks death in offending someone. Mannie, one of the main
characters and also the narrator, comments on this with regards to a
person who is rude to him: "I wondered about his life expectancy."
(17) The implied penalty for rudeness is obvious. Luna is also
virtually crimeless for the same reasons: "'...is no rape in Luna.
None.... Children are safe here,'" claims Mannie. (131) Any
offenders would be summarily disposed of via the nearest airlock.

     What makes this vigilante justice worse is that it is not
necessarily those who have actually done something that most people
would consider wrong who are eliminated. All too often the unlucky
victim's only offense is being annoying to someone stronger than he.
On page 275, Mannie says (concerning a man named Wright whom Mannie
finds verbally tiring), "Get this yammerhead off my back!" By page
278, Wright has permanently disappeared. At one point, Mannie
suggests that people with bad breath or body odor deserve to breathe
vacuum too ("...some pompous choom proposed that bad breath and body
odors be made an elimination offense. Could almost sympathize..."
(161)), as well as all the yammerheads like Gospodin Wright:
"Certain types of loudmouthism should be a capital offense among
decent people."  (159)

     Thus, on Luna there exists a kind of social "natural selection"
(130) wherein the strong murder the weak, the death penalty may be
enacted for halitosis and loudmouthism, and only the politest
survive. "Could see no better way to improve breed," says Mannie.
(159) Men who touch others' women are also subject to almost
automatic elimination: "...their lady had been insulted, had to be
done." (127) This can hardly be called a civilized society by anyone
but Heinlein's standards. The bureaucracies of Terra, even though
filled with so called "yammerheads," are infinitely more suited to
bringing justice and safety to the average citizen. While Heinlein
may not like the imposing governments of Earth (after which planet
Moon's Terra is modeled), this does not make them any less
civilized, nor does it give him the right to proclaim his fictitious
Lunar anarchy, which is literally a study in barbarism, to be a
civilized ideal.

     There also exists, in Lunar society, a tyrannical authority
called, simply, "Lunar Authority." This is a Terra-based
"government" of Luna whose nominal purpose is keeping order and
arranging the shipment of Lunar-grown grain to Terra. In actuality,
this Authority interferes not a bit with the inner workings of Lunar
society so long as the grain quotas are fulfilled: "'...are no laws
-- except Warden's [head of Lunar Authority] regulations -- and
Warden doesn't care what one Loonie does to another.'" (132) It is
nothing more than an organization for exacting tribute from the
Lunar anarchy. It adds nothing in the way of order or justice to
Luna, and a major portion of the action of the novel is devoted to
the main characters' (successful) attempt to overthrow Authority and
establish a pure "rational anarchy" as the ideal society.

     Here, Heinlein again leads himself down a path to his own
destruction. Possibly the most blatant message the book has for the
reader is one of rejection of authority. The Professor Bernardo de
la Paz, another main character, says, "'I am free, no matter what
rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I
find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that
I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.'" (65). However,
Heinlein continually proselytizes about the merits of his "perfect"
society through the main character of the professor. La Paz is
Heinlein's spokesman throughout the book, an unquestioned authority
to the other main characters. The above quotation is an example of
his preaching, as is his statement, "'...parliamentary bodies...when
they accomplished anything, owed it to a few strong men who
dominated the rest,'" (162) another typical comment from this
character. Note that even the professor contradicts himself, first
lauding individual freedom and the rejection of authority, then
advocating domination of the meek by the strong. It is not enough
that Heinlein himself, as the author of the book and therefore also
its most prominent authority, tells the reader to reject authority
(thereby creating a paradox), but he also portrays the other main
characters of the book blindly accepting the authority of the
professor, who spouts contradictions himself.

     There are many other examples of Prof handing out political
theories about rational anarchy to the other characters ("'...the
most basic human right, the right to bargain in a free
marketplace.'" (24) "'...there are only two things to do with an
enemy: Kill him. Or make a friend of him.'" (148) "'...government is
a dangerous servant and a terrible master.'" (240) "'...sometimes I
think that government is an inescapable disease of human beings.'"
(243)), and every time, the other characters and the reader are
expected to accept them as infallible gospel. The characters do
accept everything Prof says without a second thought. Hopefully, the
reader will not.

     Being Heinlein's spokesman, Prof's self-contradictions
constitute Heinlein's second indictment of himself as the final
authority of the universe his book portrays. The third and perhaps
most telling blow to his authority concerns the manner in which the
main characters (in particular Mannie, the professor, and a
self-aware computer named Mike, among others) undertake to overthrow
the Lunar Authority. Having obediently accepted all of the
professor's ravings about rational anarchy as the most civil and
most desirable form of "government," and having determined that the
only way to achieve a pure rational anarchy (and thus Utopia) on the
moon is to overthrow Lunar Authority, the main characters proceed to
set up an oligarchical tyranny of which they are the oligarchs.

     The oligarchs fund their revolution by stealing money via
computer theft: "...eventually we did rob banks, firms, and
Authority itself." (107) "Every bank, firm, shop, agency including
Authority, for which Mike did accounting, was tapped for Party
funds." (107) Presently they control the "free" press, as well as
other modes of information dissemination: "Adam Selene [one of
Mike's personalities] talked over video....  Papers quoted him and
published stories of their own -- we had made special effort to
recruit newsmen before coup." (159) Eventually, even Mannie, one of
the oligarchs, is uncertain if even all of those in the original
oligarchy still have any power. He even has suspicions that it may
be Mike and Mike alone: "...or took that long for Mike to sell his
plan while appearing to pull ideas out of rest of us," (231) or Mike
and the professor together to the exclusion of all others: "Or was
it Prof's plan with Adam Selene as salesman?" (231)

     In this manner, Heinlein has his characters implement a "pure
anarchy" by establishing an oligarchy (or perhaps a one-computer
dictatorship), which oligarchy makes it appear to the people of
Luna, by controlling information flow, that they are enjoying
individual freedom when in fact they are being herded like sheep to
accomplish the desires of the ruling elite (namely the overthrow of
Lunar Authority). This is pure contradiction on Heinlein's part, and
makes it increasingly difficult for the reader to accept even his
inherent authority as the author.

     Eventually, the main characters make a pretense of allowing the
people of Luna to establish what form of government they will.
However, the "heroes" (notably the professor) try their hardest to
prevent this government from having any real power: "But Prof had a
place for them [the "self-appointed political scientists" (159)];
each was invited to take part in 'Ad-Hoc Congress for Organization
of Free Luna'..." (159) The professor allows this huge committee of
"yammerheads" to debate over the decision of potential form of
government because it is his belief that they, being only
yammerheads, will never be able to reach a decision anyway, and
anarchy will prevail. He says, "'...I was simply putting all my nuts
in one basket. ...this Ad-Hoc Congress will do nothing...or if they
pass something...it will be so loaded with contradictions that it
will have to be thrown out. In the meantime they are out of our
hair.'" (162) Prof even controls this committee, causing it to pass
the Declaration of Independence that he wants by playing on people's
fatigue: "'...late at night when they are very tired, they'll pass
it by acclamation.'" (162) "He sprang it on them at end of long
day..." (163) and by packing the committee with his supporters:
"Begin to see that Prof had stacked deck. That Congress never had a
fixed membership...." (165) Later, the professor and his cronies
also hold elections, but these elections are fixed: "[Mike says to
Mannie] 'Eighty-six percent of our candidates were successful --
approximately what I had expected.'[Mannie comments]
('Approximately,' my false left arm.  Exactly what expected..."
(229)

     After the professor's death, when the oligarchs finally do
relinquish power, the former oligarch Mannie is infinitely
disappointed when the "yammerheads" establish a government that is
all too similar to those "barbaric" bureaucracies on Terra: "Prof
should have kept closer eye on it [the yammerheads' committee]."
(240) He even contemplates going out to the asteroids to try to
regain his personal freedom (302). This reflects Heinlein's
viewpoint that happiness has been lost because the anarchy has
ended, but hopefully the reader will realize that the possibility of
much greater happiness in the future has just been opened up. For
once, people may not have to live in constant fear of their fellows.

     So in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein, the author and
therefore the authority, asks the reader to reject authority, a
contradiction in itself. He also asks the reader to swallow a pack
of other contradictions, disguising tyranny and terror as freedom
and happiness, and confusing barbaric and civilized societies. He
thus erodes his own authority concerning the worlds he himself has
created. The reader can resort logically to only one thing: the
rejection of Heinlein's authority. He will not necessarily reject
authority in general, but cannot accept Heinlein's authority
specifically. Therefore, Heinlein is implicated, and any messages he
might have tried to convey through the book are invalidated by his
self-contradictions.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 18:27:00 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

I wasn't interested in criticism of the actual *essay*. That is, at
this point (and given its source), entirely irrelevant. I am much
more interested in finding out what people think about the actual
*ideas* contained in the essay. Do people out there think that its
attack on Heinlein is valid? Do they think the conclusions it draws
are true? Let's not worry about the essay's *style*, instead
concentrating on its *substance*.

Is its criticism of the book justified. If not, why not. Etc.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Apr 87 1044-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #181
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 87 1044-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #181
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Apr 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Max Headroom (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 16:47:27 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White)
Subject: More on Max Headroom

    ****** Once again, SPOILER WARNING for those who care ******

    Max Headroom - The Series has shown 4 episodes so far.  They
seem to be bringing back in the things they took out of the original
pilot, such as Big Time TV (seen in episode three), and what seems
to be the cross- hatch generator in episode 4 (I haven't yet watched
it - I taped it last night).  BTW, a cross-hatch generator is the
device that you used to see Max talking from in the older Coke
comercials - you know, the one that the kid finds and straps to his
bike and takes home?  There really ain't no such animal (or so we
were informed the last time the Max discussion went around on this
discussion net).  It was just a device that Boyce used to contain
the program and data that generated Max Headroom in the original
video.
    Also, the writers are bringing in some interesting ideas.  One
that made me sit up was the name of the head of Zik Zak Corp.  Ever
read the Schroedinger's Cat books by Robert Anton Wilson (?)?
Remember Ped Xing?
    And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they
seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in
Gibson's Neuromancer).  (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term?  I
think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.)
    I can see why the network would try to soften up and unconfuse
Max for the American audience, but that doesn't mean I have to like
it.  If that's why Max is so different, then I think that stinks.  I
like Max, both this way, and the original way (sorta like Coke).
But if the producers thought they HAD to tone the weirdness down,
then I wonder if the series can last.  I hope it does.

jl

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 00:44:20 GMT
From: dm3h#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dennis Moul)
Subject: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security

WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks:
>    And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they
>seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in
>Gibson's Neuromancer).  (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term?  I
>think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.)

I'm sure the term originated considerably before _Neuromancer_.  I
recall a story about "black ICE" (security that kills intruders by
backfeeding massive electrical shocks through the keyboard) in an
old ('78-'80?)  Fantasy & Science Fiction (F&SF) or Isaac Asimov's
SF Magazine (IASFM). I don't recall exactly what ICE stands for,
though. Intelligent Countermeasures Electronics, perhaps?

On the subject of SF magazine stories, does anyone have a database
of story names, authors, titles, keywords, etc.? I often find that I
can recall a word or phrase from a story I read a couple years ago,
and would like to find it again. However, the prospect of hunting
through my 250 back issues of F&SF and IASFM is sufficiently
daunting for me not to bother. If I had a database of keywords from
the stories, matched with issue numbers, I could find any given
story quickly. More than once I've almost started such a project,
but I don't have the energy to reread all 250 back issues (at 1 a
week, it would take almost 5 years!)

If anyone has such a database, or is interested in developing one,
let me know. My collection is mostly from 1977-present, so I'd like
to concentrate on that area.

Dennis Moul
ARPA & BITNET: dm3h#@andrew.cmu.edu
UUCP: ...!{seismo, ucbvax,
harvard@}!andrew.cmu.edu!dm3h

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 22 Apr 1987 22:01-EST
From: jmturn%ringwld.UUCP@CCA.CCA.COM
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #170

>What is a cross-hatch generator?

A cross-hatch generator is a little gizmo (that's tech talk for
anything that costs under $10,000) that puts a series of diagonal
and horizontal lines on a TV screen at a regular spacing. It is used
to make sure that a monitor is displaying the proper picture without
distortion from edge to edge. Some things that cause this not to
happen are gaussing (which resulted in the degauss switch) and
old/tired internal magnets.

They are also used to align the beams of a project TV system.

It is rare to find one all by itself these days, they are usually
packaged a color bar generator and a test pattern generator for a
couple of hundred dollars (and since the package will fit in your
hand, I don't understand how anyone could mistake it for the pile of
hardware used to create Max)

James Turner
ARPA: ringwld!jmturn@CCA.CCA.COM
UUCP: {decvaxd|!sri-unix|ima|linus}cca!ringwld!jmturn
MAIL:  329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87  13:13:36 EDT
From: FULIGIN%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Peter E. Lee)
Subject: Max Headroom

I have seen both the original (British) pilot and the American
series.  I was quite impressed with how closely they followed the
original in terms of both plot and feel - both of which are above
the intensity/complexity of the average American TV show.  The main
changes that were made were those needed to make the show into an
on-going series - They allow Max to meet Edison, put Max in the
network XXIII computer where he can run around and be active, rather
than being confined to a box in a van at a small independent
station, and they make Bryce a protagonist to fill out the regular
cast.  They also simplify one or two minor elements for the "Average
American Viewer," but I was not at all disappointed with the result
- It's miles above the average US TV mush.  I was a little
disappointed with the most recent episode though, in which Edison
investigates a world-wide security firm.  Although it still had some
distinctive elements that made it well worth spending an hour in
front of the TV, the show lacked the 'umph' of the pilot and had
much less going on.  It seems that they are moving uncomfortably
close to becoming just another 'sci-fi action adventure show' (note
the derogatory use of 'sci-fi,' if you must).  They also committed
the cardinal sin of including an 'artificially intelligent'
mainframe that burned and threw sparks when faced with a
logical/emotional dilemma.  But, even at the level of the last
episode it has several things to recommend it - Max, the
willingness to explore 'hot' topics (the ramifications of a
centralized security agency with access to critical information, our
reliance on technology, the attitudes of the rich and powerful to
the not-so-rich-and-powerful...), and, as another poster mentioned,
an overall 'Brazil'-esque quality previously not seen in a network
TV show among others.  So, in short, I'd say it's well worth
watching but not quite 'brilliant.'

Peter E. Lee
Fuligin%UMass.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 23 Apr 1987 12:40:38-PDT
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Max Headroom Television Seriew

I've been enjoying the new Max Headroom show on network television,
called "20 Minutes Into the Future."  I have not seen any messages
about it in this newsletter, so I guess I'll break the ice.

The network has shown three episodes of this new television series
so far, on Tuesday nights at 10:00 in the Boston area.  It's based
on the BBC pilot "Max Headroom" which was an interesting science
fiction movie about a new advertising gimmick and the television
news reporter who discovers that the new ads have an unfortunate
side-effect on couch potatoes.  In the process of escaping from the
advertising executives, the reporter (Edison Carter) is captured and
translated into a computer program.  Thus the creation of Max
Headroom, a character well-known for his Coca-Cola commercials.
Some people find Max insufferably trite.  Others (like myself) are
amused at his irreverent attitude.

That's the background behind the television series.  The TV show is
very true to the original pilot.  Edison Carter is played by Matt
Frewer.  His lovely cohort is the same actress as in the pilot, as
well as several other characters.  Forgive me, I tend to forget
names.

The plot for the television show includes Edison's investigations
into other news stories.  He reminds me of Geraldo Rivera --
persisent in his quest for the truth, dedicated to exposing the dirt
underneath the glitter of television news.

Max Headroom himself appears infrequently, but sometimes has a
critical part in the plot.  The latest show (April 21) had an
interesting plot twist based on the resemblance between Edison
Carter and Max Headroom.  It's hysterical to see Edison talking to
Max.  (The original pilot didn't get that far.)

The show has great special effects, and a surprisingly good script.
The pacing is very fast, for a television show.  You really have to
watch it to get the story.  Many small details make this show
futuristic.  If you look for it, there is some social commentary,
too.  Remember, though, that this is TELEVISION, and therefore, the
"hard science fiction" is glossed over.

I heartily recommend this show for science fiction lovers, and warn
all you couch potatoes that Max Headroom is a cut above your usual
Pablum television fare.

Comments from any other viewers?

(Flames and personal vindictives will all be flushed.  I want to
generate a discussion here in SF-LOVERS only.)

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 03:36:19 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security

WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks:
>    And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they
>seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in
>Gibson's Neuromancer).  (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term?  I
>think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.)

It probably doesn't correspond, but back in 1971, ICE meant
Industrial Computer Enclosure according to DEC.  One the other hand,
ICE has been crime-speak for kill, silence, imprison for a lot
longer...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 21:48:28 GMT
From: motown!bunker!hjg@RUTGERS.EDU (Harry J. Gross)
Subject: Re: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks:
>>    And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they
>>seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in
>>Gibson's Neuromancer).  (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term?
>>I think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.)
>
>It probably doesn't correspond, but back in 1971, ICE meant
>Industrial Computer Enclosure according to DEC.  One the other
>hand, ICE has been crime-speak for kill, silence, imprison for a
>lot longer...

Of course, for those of you into computer hardware debugging (ugh!)
it means In-Circuit Emulator.

Harry Gross
..!bunker!hjg

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 21:59:03 GMT
From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom - review

ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes:
>maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>>The Max Headroom show reminded me a little of a low-budget BRAZIL.
>>Entertaining. Not miraculously so, but entertaining. Certainly
>>beats most of the schlock out there...
>Most especially, considering the medium we're talking about here.

I agree.  The plots are somewhat predictable, and Boyce is a
stereotypical cross between a 15 year old hacker and a mad
scientist, but that's nothing compared to most of the plots TV
writers come up with. :-)

>There are a few things that bother me about Max (the show, not the
>personality).  The idea that "truth will out", that if you can go
>public with whatever dark secret you dredge up and that somehow
>solves the problem, seems a bit simplistic to me.  But the big
>problem I have is that the show builds up a nasty picture of
>corporate America, then shows our hero making one concession after
>another to one of the shadier corporations (channel XXIII).  A good
>point was made in the last show, that Edison must play ball with
>the company if he is going to continue to use the facilities to
>help people, but still.  What is being said here?

Journalists are often faced with a similar problem--at least I was
when I used to work as an editor for my college newspaper: Many of
those who publish newspapers--or produce TV newscasts--are driven,
if not by a profit motive, at least by the desire to have the
largest circulation possible.  It is common to have a conflict of
interest between the desire to publish the truth and the desire to
publish that which one's readers or listeners want.

Part of any system of professional ethics must be to provide a code
for dealing with situations where the professional's employer want's
him or her to do something unethical.  I don't think that the right
soultion is to simply say "Well, the person involved should quit",
because the employer will probably find someone else to commit the
act.  Edison is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

I think the show is trying to satirize our attitudes towards TV and
its effects on our lifestyle (especially in the pilot.)  While
corporate America is also satirized, I think that stems from the
fact that TV is mainly controlled by large networks.

>I'm also uncomfortable about the show's continual use of
>sophisticated tracking and monitoring equipment.  Sure, it's always
>used for good within that particular plot, but I do not think that
>facilities like that are something we the proles should get used
>to.

Agreed.  And with continued improvements in data-processing and
telecommunications technology it is only getting worse.  Perhaps we
need to develop the field of "information ethics" in the same way
that we have developed engineering ethics, medical ethics, and other
fields.  Note that as engineering and medicine have improved, the
importance of ethical behavior in these fields has increased.

>This is less coherent than I had intended.  Am I making sense?
>Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Would anyone like to discuss similarities between the series and
other science fiction movies or series from the past?  The pilot
seemed to borrow much of its atmosphere from *Blade Runner*--lots of
dark, rain, neon and grime--and the second episode reminds me of the
sport of *Rollerball* in its infancy.

>All in all, I think Max Headroom is one of the better shows on TV
>right now.  But there are these nagging doubts...

Daniel R. Lance
Eastman Kodak Company:  sprankle@kodak.uucp
Purdue University EE:   lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu
                        ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced
                        ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 04:41:48 GMT
From: c60a-4gd@tart7.berkeley.edu (Stephan Zielinski)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom - review

    Re the filming style: I have heard it called "film noire" (or
some such spelling.) It is common in movies about a (dark) future-
"1984," "The Terminator," "Brazil," etc.
    Minor gripes: we CS people dislike the technical glitches in the
treatment of Max, but then we gripe about the color of phaser shots,
too.  Also, it looks like Max is going to moralize about The Shows
Theme at the end of each episode. Finally, E. Carter depends too
much on a small number of contacts- an aging punker and a rickshaw
driver with Lennon glasses. (So if I hate it so much, why do I watch
it..? Just being picky.)

    The ads shown on the show are interesting: most use the same
night shots, etc. that the show itself does. "Lazer Tag" is the
canonical example... Any comments on the relation of the resurgence
of war toys and the "Max Headroom" genre?

Stephan Zielinski
UUCP: ucbvax!miro!stephan
ARPA: stephan@miro.Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 Apr 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #182
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #182
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 182

Today's Topics:

            Books - Attanasio & Brin (3 msgs) & Martin &
                    Niven & Story Request &
                    Reading Short Stories (2 msgs) &
                    Juvenile SF (2 msgs) & References &
                    Request Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 16:27:58 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) says:
>Has *anyone* out there besides me (and Jeff Horvath) read
>A.A.Attanasio's awesome work _Radix_? (Bantam-Spectra paper, used
>to be a great big thick hardcover). This may be the best book of
>the 80's, and no one's read it?!?

I have read Radix and his other book (somthing like "Arc of the
Rainbow"???)  and enjoyed both of them thoroughly. I picked up Radix
when it first came out (in trade!!). Just as a warning to would be
readers, Attanasio tends to get very technical and theoretical about
his characters and things that happen (as some would expect in hard
science fiction). If you enjoy good hard science fiction, pick up
both of his books

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
(215) 647-0440
7 Great Valley Parkway East  Malvern PA 19355
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 11:23:37 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com
Subject: Uplift War & Tipper's next book

     The last I heard, David Brin's "Uplift War" was suppose to be
out this month.  Has anyone seen it?  What is the status, should it
hit the stands soon?

Thanks in advance.
Have a good day.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 16:08:56 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Uplift War & Tipper's next book

>     The last I heard, David Brin's "Uplift War" was suppose to be
>out this month.  Has anyone seen it?  What is the status, should it
>hit the stands soon?

The Phantasia Press edition (limited hardcover) is out now.  the
Bantam paperback is not scheduled until August.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 09:38:34 PDT (Monday)
From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com
Subject: The Uplift War
Cc: faknabe@phoenix.princeton.edu

     Picked up a copy of 'The Uplift War' by David Brin last friday
afternoon.  Finished it Saturday.  The bottom line is if you enjoyed
'Sundiver' or 'Startide Rising', you'll enjoy this.  If you haven't
read the first two, get them, they are good.  Don't really need to
read them to enjoy 'The Uplift War'.  'The Uplift War' is a big
book, just over 500 pages.  David Brin uses the same format as
'Startide Rising', of poping from character viewpoint to character
viewpoint.
     This book is not a sequel to 'Startide Rising', so much as a
story which starts about the same time at 'Startide Rising', maybe
even before, then ends about a year later.  The story flows very
nicely.  Had trouble putting it down.
     The first edition is less than 4000 copies.  It is hardcover.
Don't know when the next edition is planned.

Miner Spoiler, not much more than the inside of the cover...

     The story takes place on one of the colony planets, Garth,
Earth has been able to get.  An alien race, Gubu, decides to capture
the planet and hold the humans as hostages to force Earth to share
the knowledge the 'Streaker' found in 'Startide Rising'.
Unfortunatly Earth doesn't have any data.  The Gubu capture just
humans.  The Chims, chimpaanzees, are a young race, only sapient for
a couple hundred years, no threat.  Ha!  One human, a few aliens,
and the chims cause lots of trouble.
     Had a problem with the story.  I was expecting some resolution
to the 'Streaker' discoveries.  This isn't really about a war, just
a couple battles on an unimportant planet.  Kind of neat how the bad
guys are fooled, but the tittle is misleading.  Was expecting to see
the future atleast five or ten years from the time of 'Startide
Rising'.
     Over all the book is good.  Now, does anyone know when the next
book in the Uplift universe will be out?

Have a good day.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 00:48:06 GMT
From: seismo!sun!coraki!navajo!bothner@RUTGERS.EDU (Per Bothner)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin query

Mike Caplinger asks which George R.R Martin story has "Kenny with
his monkey." It is "The Monkey Treatment," which can be found in
Gardner Dozois' first annual year's best collection (the brick-sized
trade paperbacks, of which three have been published so far). Kenny
is seriously overweight, and the "treatment" is a way to lose weight
- but a rather unpleasant one. The story may be Politically
Incorrect in assuming that fat men cannot attract women (Martin
chivalrously ignores the possibility of fat women). Apart from that
minor nit, it's a hilarious story: A paean to the joy of food.

bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu
...!decwrl!labrea!navajo!bothner
Computer Science Dept.
Stanford University
Stanford CA 94305

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 22:07:51 GMT
From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance)
Subject: Re: Funny SF

dlleigh@media-lab.UUCP (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>I remember reading a short story by Larry Niven that had a really
>funny ending.  It was called "Converging Series" and was about a
>college student who decides to "raise the devil" for a class
>project.

Its name is "Convergent Series" and can be found in the anthology of
the same name.  I recommend it highly.

Daniel R. Lance
Eastman Kodak Company:  sprankle@kodak.uucp
Purdue University EE:   lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu
                        ...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced
                        ...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 03:07:30 GMT
From: sds@meccsd.mecc.mn.org (Steven D. Splinter)
Subject: Re: Review of the "Berserker" series by

On a slightly differnt subject, A good short story on evolving
robots, and the dangers therof is "The Crabs take over the Island"
(or something like that), by I can't recall who.  It concerns an
island (surprise) where a number of small crab-like robots that can
duplicate themselves are released to compete for the available
resources.  A very good short story.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 10:01:42 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@almsa-1.arpa>
Subject: Short Story Reading

Since we've had some discussion recently, recommending specific
short stories, I thought it might be appropriate to bring up some
questions I have long wondered about regarding short stories in
general, and books of short-story collections in specific:

1. How do you read a book of short stories? Do you open it to page
"i", read the intro or preface, and then read each story in the book
in the order they are printed? I tend to read the contents page
first and then skip around within the book, usually reading the
shortest items first and working up to the longer ones. Sometimes I
will read a preface or explanatory introduction first, and, if it
describes the stores (as some anthologies do), read the stories
whose descriptions caught my interest the most. If there are
editor's or anthologizer's notes by each story, like Ellison did in
the "Dangerous Visions" books, sometimes I will read all of those
notes before reading any stories. Anyone else do this?

2. Since I do the above, I have sometimes wondered if I am losing
something in not following the sequence laid down by the author or
editor. Do {some, many, most, all, none of the} collections of short
stories by a single author have some grand design or specific plan
of the sequence of stories, designed to create an effect,
precipitate swings of mood, or otherwise affect the reader based on
the order in which he/she reads the stories? Some collections are
clear in that the contents are arranged chronologically over an
author's career, or they follow some chronology in the fictional
universe they describe. But what about collections with no such
connection or sequencing, where each story is totally independent?
Somebody must have made some decision at some time to determine
which comes first, which next, etc. Who does this? An editor,
someone at the publishing house not even given the status and title
of "editor", or the author?

3. What about anthologies, as opposed to collections? [I distinguish
here between "collection" being a group of stories all by the same
author and "anthology" being a compilation of stories by many
authors, brought together into one book, based on some criteria, by
an editor.]  Does the sequencing of stories in most anthologies have
real import, or does it tend to be that the ones written by the
editor's closest friends appear earliest, or the one that arrived
(or got legal clearance) first gets in first, or what? [I expect
this varies quite a bit, and maybe that the better editors have some
overall plan into which they fit and select the stories, while
poorer editors just string them together with no rhyme nor reason.
But I am guessing here.] Do writers care about where in an anthology
their work appears? (For example, do they ever specify in selling
the reprint rights that "this story must appear first [or last] in
the anthology for which these rights are being sold" or some such
legalese?) (Is first best, or is last best, in terms of status, by
the way?)

Comments solicited.

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
(on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA )

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 19:50:47 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: Short Story Reading

wmartin@almsa-1.arpa writes:
>Since we've had some discussion recently, recommending specific
>short stories, I thought it might be appropriate to bring up some
>questions I have long wondered about regarding short stories in
>general, and books of short-story collections in specific:
>
>1. How do you read a book of short stories? Do you open it to page
>"i", read the intro or preface, and then read each story in the
>book in the order they are printed?

Usually, yes.  I usually like reading prefaces and introductions,
and will occasionally read all the story introductions before
starting on the stories themselves (Asimov's "Hugo Winners" volumes
usually get this treatment).  But most of the time I just read
strait through.

As to whether there is some plan to collections/anthologies, usually
the answer seems to be yes, but only in a broad sense of picking a
strong story for the beginning (grab the reader), putting a good,
meaty story toward the center (keep him interested), and keeping the
most impressive, flashiest story for last (end with a bang).  Some
collections (e.g., Wolfe's "Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories
and other stories") alternate shorter and longer stories, especially
if the longer stories are novellas.

On a related point, if the stories you are reading fit together in
some way as a series, then it may make sense to give more thought to
the sequence in which they ought to be read.  In some cases, this
may not be the sequence in which they are printed.  Delany, for
example, has argued in an article called "The Non-Abelian Series"
that Asimov's Foundation stories should be read in the order they
were written, rather than in the order Asimov chose to use in the
"Foundation" book (basically, he argues that the first story in the
book, which was written for the book, in the 50's, should be read
last).  He makes the same point about Disch's "334".

As far as I know, writers have no say about the position of their
stories in anthologies.  Anybody really know??

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: Fri 24 Apr 87 10:24:40-EST
From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
Subject: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

   I know that juvenile F & SF has been discussed on this net
before, but I'd like to know if anyone has compiled a list of these
stories categorized by 1) applicable age groups or, 2) "best",
"good", and "avoid if possible".

   What I would like to have, if it exists, is a recommended list of
kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group (knowing this
varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12, 12-14, 14-16, and 16
& up".  Maybe that last group is just adult fiction.  As anyone with
'tweenage' kids knows, the difference between what a 10 year old and
a 14 year old understands and enjoys is considerable.  Also, an
experienced recommendation is helpful because most kids left on
their own will purchase books "by the cover" only.  If they don't
like what they see, they won't touch it.  Anything bought for them,
however, is usually digested readily.

   If anyone has such a list, please post or e-mail to me.  If you
have specific recommendations or info, send to me and I'll summarize
what I get if there's enough response.

   I would really be interested in the "don't waste the $2.95 for
it" category, since nothing turns a kid off faster than having an
adult buy him/her something that really smells.  Confidence drops to
zero and takes a long time to restore.

   Also, plot summaries with recommmendations would be helpful.

   Thanks.

dingman@radc-20.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 18:02:34 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

>   What I would like to have, if it exists, is a recommended list
>of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group (knowing
>this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12, 12-14, 14-16,
>and 16 & up".

As a partial answer, here are some of the books I reread over and
over when *I* was 12-14:

The Ultimate Weapon, by John Campbell
Anton York, Immortal, by Eando Binder
anything by Edgar Rice Burroughs, preferably taking series in order
Slan, by AE Van Vogt
Twin Planets, by Philip E High
When/After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer (sp?)
Spacehounds of IPC, by E. E. Smith
Citizen of the Galaxy, by Robert A. Heinlein

I'd say this is a good age for Space Opera.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 17:49:52 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Lankemarr

Those Lands...

'Lankhmar' is the locale for many of Fritz Lieber's
stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, which I think are very funny.
It is modelled after the traditional cosmopolitan, boistrous trading
entrepot, and in particular on Hellenistic Alexandria.

'Lemuria' is probably a reference to Lin Carter's stories about
Thongor of Lemuria, which in turn are lifted about 80% from the
Puranas.  The name also occurs in the Atlantis/Theosophy tradition,
as another sunken continent; Spence's The Problem of Lemuria is the
most accessible work within that tradition.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 21:34:09 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Funny juvenile story request

From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
>    Anyway, I remember a story called "Sam (somebody) on the Planet
> Framingham(?)".  I'd like to know the author's name so I could get
> a copy to 1) reread and see if it is still funny and 2) if so,
> give it to my son to get him off the Atari for five minutes.

The book you're looking for is SAM WESKIT ON THE PLANET FRAMINGHAM
by William Johnston, published by Tempo Books (paperback) in 1970.
Johnston is mostly known for novels based on various tv series.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 Apr 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #183
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #183
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 183

Today's Topics:

                  Films - Japanimation (4 msgs) &
                          Filmed in Space (6 msgs) &
                          Solaris (2 msgs) &
                          Silent Running (3 msgs) &
                          Little Shop of Horrors (3 msgs)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 14:17:54 GMT
From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>sds5044@ritcv.UUCP () writes:
>>Here are some questions:
>>1. Is there a sequel to the movie SUMMER MACROSS 84 ?
>     What is "Summer Macross 84?"  I've heard of "Megazone 2-3"
>and "Robotech--The Movie" and "Battleiod", but nothing under
>this name.

"Summer Macross 84" is a Japanimation film released, obviously
enough, in the summer of '84. It is basically a 2 hour version of
the Macross series. Some parts of it have, however, been drastically
cut or altered due to time considerations. After all, Macross in its
entirety probably runs 15-20 hours.  I believe this film is also
referred to as "Macross Summer Love."

>>2. Does anybody know about the GEMMA WARS video?
>     What is "Gemma Wars"?

"Gemma Wars" is another Japanamation film. I'm not too sure what its
about, having never seen it myself, but I'm sure it can be found at
various SF conventions around the country.

>>3. Are there any good Japanimation books out now.
>
>     I haven't found anything aside from the Robotech books.

There are imported Japanimation books which are basically comic
books made from the films. These can usually be found at specialty
shops that carry this kind of material and sometimes in comic shops.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 01:50:06 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Some Japanimation Questions.

pxd3563@ritcv.UUCP (Patrick A. Deupree) writes:
> 2.  I don't know about "Gemma Wars" but I have heard of a movie
> called "Gemma Tyson"(sp?).  I think it was about a bunch of people
> with psychic powers (mostly telekenises), that have to battle some
> evil guy with really nasty psychic powers.  I believe this was
> "Gemma Tyson" but I may have my titles mixed up.  It was a while
> ago that I saw it.

   Well, I remember seeing a Japanimation movie called Genma Taisen,
and it seems like that one that you're talking about is it.  "Genma"
in Japanese means something like "source of evil" or "core of evil".
"Taisen" means "a huge war."  It looked pretty good from the
advertisemnts since the animation seemed pretty good.  Alas, as I
watched it, the plot was plodding and the ending was a bit
anti-climactic.  I think the story could've been done more consicely
(without losing much of what it tried to accomplish) in an hour or
less.
   Now, if I remember correctly, there was a comic book series in
Japan quite a while back that was titled Genma Taisen.  They had the
same sort of animation looks so I think the movie was based on this
comic book series (as is usual with a lot of Japanimation movies -
witness "Urusei Yatsura").

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone:  (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)
UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 09:27:14 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Japanese Manga in America (was Re: Some Japanimation
Subject: Questions.)

sadoyama@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Sadoyama) writes:
> Plot synopses:
> _Area 88_     World War II fighter pilots in North Africa.

   Well, the animation movie called _Area_88_ in Japan a couple of
years ago was devoted to a young fighter pilot near our time (not
WWII).  He get's involved in a conflict in the Middle East, if my
memory serves me right.  The fact that he was piloting a jet fighter
and the fact that this involves a Middle East conflict sort of says
that this couldn't be WWII.
   However, this might not be the plot for the comics.  This is the
plot for the movie, or a fraction of which I was able to garner from
the ads and promo's in Tokyo.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: (215)328-8449 (this phone is till May '87)
UUCP: {seismo,ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: bpa!swatsun!hirai@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 20:31:13 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!mae@RUTGERS.EDU (Mary Anne
From: Espenshade)
Subject: Area 88

hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes:
>sadoyama@miro.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Sadoyama) writes:
>> Plot synopses:
>> _Area 88_    World War II fighter pilots in North Africa.
>
>Well, the animation movie called _Area_88_ in Japan a couple of
>years ago was devoted to a young fighter pilot near our time (not
>WWII).
> . . .  However, this might not be the plot for the comics.  This
>is the plot for the movie, or a fraction of which I was able to
>garner from the ads and promo's in Tokyo.  Please correct me if I'm
>wrong.

A.G. is right, or at least closer, about Area 88.  The manga has
been adapted as an O.V.A. (Original Video Animation), a form common
in Japan recently, but relatively unknown here.  There are 3 or 4
parts available so far.  O.V.A.s are serials or one-shot videos of
varying length made specifically for video store release rather than
theatrical release or tv.  The parts of Area 88 are 45 minutes - 1
hour long, I've seen 1 and 3.  Some friends who have the manga say
the story does diverge in the video after a while but it is set in
the present day or near future Middle East.  I'll be interested in
seeing the English translation, I'm not too clear on the plot.

Some other good anime videos to watch for are:
        Firetripper        time-travel fantasy
        Vampire Hunter 'D' sf/horror
        Angel's Egg        sf/surreal
        Megazone 23        sf serial, 2 parts so far
        Windaria           sf tragedy
        Project A-ko       sf comedy (very funny), may be serial
        California Crisis  sf (ufo contact?)
        Amon Saga          fantasy

Mary Anne Espenshade
{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplcen!aplvax!mae
mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu
mae@aplvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 23:33:05 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!mirth@RUTGERS.EDU (The Reedmage)
Subject: Re: Filmed in Space

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>>From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane)
>>How about DARK STAR? After all, how many movies have you seen that
>>have a line in the credits:
>>   "Filmed on location in space" :-)
>I think "Filmed on location, in space" was in _Hardware Wars_, not
>_Dark Star_.

Maybe it was in both of them.  Actually, I don't remember it from
_Dark Star_, which I have seen several times.

The movie I KNOW was filmed on location in space, and said so in the
opening credits, is _The Dream is Alive_, the IMAX shuttle film,
which the astronauts themselves filmed on three flights of various
shuttles.

The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of
are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San
Francisco.  I believe there are one or two more.  Any SF lover who
has a chance to see this film, DO IT.  You'll really feel as if you
were on the shuttle yourself -- as much as you can without actually
Going.

I saw it twice before the Challenger explosion, and once after.  I
recommend before more than after (time machine? :-)), but it's still
beautiful, and rather poignant now.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 21:55:08 GMT
From: motown!bunker!hjg@RUTGERS.EDU (Harry J. Gross)
Subject: IMAX

mirth@reed.UUCP (The Reedmage) writes:
>The movie I KNOW was filmed on location in space, and said so in
>the opening credits, is _The Dream is Alive_, the IMAX shuttle
>film, which the astronauts themselves filmed on three flights of
>various shuttles.
>
>The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of
>are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San
>Francisco.  I believe there are one or two more.

There is one located in the American Museum of Natural History in
NYC.  They call it the NatureMax Theatre.  I have seen the film "To
Fly" there, and it is quite an experience.

I believe the program changes from time to time, so a call to the
museum is in order, if you are interested.  The phone number is
(212) 496-0900.

Harry Gross
..!bunker!hjg

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 10:31:59 GMT
From: sjc@arthur.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Subject: Re: IMAX

mirth@reed.UUCP (The Reedmage) writes:
> The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of
> are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San
> Francisco.  I believe there are one or two more.  Any SF lover who

There is also an IMAX screen at Cedar Point amusement park in
Sandusky, Ohio

Steve Chapin
ARPA:  sjc@gwen.cs.purdue.edu
UUCP:  ...!purdue!sjc

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 15:56:39 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Re: IMAX

There is an IMAX theater at Great America in Santa Clara (or at
least there was one two years ago).  I agree.  The film is
impressive.

Karen Black
c/o
Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 00:23:19 GMT
From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE)
Subject: IMAX IN SPACE

The IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" was filmed by the astronauts in
space using 70mm film cameras.  Yes, they are big and bulky, but
they didn't have to carry them around during liftoff.  If some
lesser sized high quality format was used for some shots, I wouldn't
be surprised, but you'd have to show me that film first....

I thought they explained all this in the film.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 05:42:00 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Filmed on location in Outer Space

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before: MOONRAKER, as in
James Bond, lists Outer Space in its location credits.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 00:12:50 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix

Is this movie, _Solaris_, that everyone keeps raving about (and of
which I had never heard of before) any relation to Stanislaw Lem's
novel _Solaris_?

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 23:39:21 GMT
From: hplabs!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Is this movie, _Solaris_, that everyone keeps raving about (and of
>which I had never heard of before) any relation to Stanislaw Lem's
>novel _Solaris_?

Yes. It was directed by Soviet director Tarkovsky (Ivan??) back in
the early '70s. I feel it's one of the all-time best adaptations of
an SF novel for the silver screen. A warning: it's VERY long and has
a tendency to plod. But it has some very nice, unexpected touches: a
couple embrace in a very 19th-century library or dining room or
something as the Solaris station momentarily loses gravity and they
float slowly through the room, along with books and a candelabra.
The scene where the protagonist's wife drinks LOX is well done, and
the ending is a real MIND BLOWER (I won't spoil it for those of you
who haven't seen the movie).

Tarkovsky then went on to direct another SF film which I haven't
seen; it's something about an alien visitation in mother Russia with
the aliens leaving something behind that alters mutation rates (I
think).  It has a short title which I can't for the life of me
remember. Has anyone seen this film? It got some good reviews.

By the way, Tarkovsky died recently.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 08:44 CDT
From: "Ken @343-7588" <"NGSTL1::KWOOD%ti-eg.csnet"@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Silent Running

I could have sworn that Douglas Trumball, fresh from his sucess in
doing special effects for 2001, produced "Silent Running." So I
don't think it predates 2001, but it was a good film.

How about Krull - I know it wasn't the greatest, but it was
entertaining...

ken wood

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 03:09:34 GMT
From: moss!mhuxu!davec@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Caswell)
Subject: Question about _Silent Running_

If anyone knows who produced, directed, worked on, etc. Silent
Running, I'd really appreciate it if you would mail said info to me.

Thanks,

Dave Caswell
{allegra|ihnp4|...}!mhuxu!davec
davec@borax.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 15:34:01 GMT
From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE)
Subject: Re: Question about _Silent Running_

This material can be looked up in many standard movie guides.  You
might also try the movie rental catalogs at your campus events
office for this information.  I just happen to know off the top of
my head that one of the three scriptwriters was Michael (Mike)
Cimino, who later went into directoral history with the $70 million
box office disaster Heaven's Gate.  Silent Running starred Bruce
Dern, had two Joan Baez songs in the soundtrack, and the overall
incidental music was done by classical music comedian Peter
Shickele, the madman responsible (for being) "P.D.Q. Bach."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87  11:42:48 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Feed Me!

Have I been gone for that long or has nobody yet mentioned "Little
Shop Of Horrors"? I saw the new movie a few months ago without
knowing anything about the plot except that is was weird. I have not
yet had a chance to see the play or the original movie. "Little
Shop" is quite definitely a cult film, and will probably give the
"Rocky Horror Picture Show" some serious competition.

Andy Steinberg
UMass Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 23:59:16 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU (Jeffrey Horvath)
Subject: Re: Feed Me!

  I saw "Little Shop" last summer and was vastly disappointed.  I
wasn't expecting anything even in the same class as the "Rocky
Horror Picture Show" but was still disappointed.  The show had some
(very few) good points - it had a funny line or two - but that in no
way compensated for the annoyingly obnoxious musical aspect of it.
I think it would have been much better left to the stage as a
musical so as not to tempt we curious sf'ers.  If it had been better
adapted to the screen (demusicalized), it would have been more
bearable -maybe only boring.  All in all, a really BAD movie.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 14:19:04 GMT
From: paw3c@krebs.acc.virginia.edu (Pat Wilson)
Subject: Re: Feed Me!

ugjeffh@sunybcs.uucp (Jeffrey Horvath) writes:
> If it had been better adapted to the screen (demusicalized), it
> would have been more bearable -maybe only boring.  All in all, a
> really BAD movie.

But the music *made* that film!  Have you ever seen the original?
Now _that's_ bad.  (In case you hadn't guessed, I loved it - I'd see
it again if it was still in town...)

Pat Wilson, UVa Medical School
UUCP: seismo!virginia!paw3c
CSNET: paw3c@acc.virginia.edu
BITNET: paw3c@virginia.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 Apr 87 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #184
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 87 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #184
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 184

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 20:05:26 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: sources...

Titles (oldies -- we all know the newer ones...) I am adding:

_Waldo and Magic, Inc._ (1940)
_Assignment in Eternity_
_Beyond this Horizon_
_The Day after Tommorrow_
_Double Star_
_The Man who Sold the Moon_

Note: I haven't actually READ any of these. All but _Waldo_ I got
from the page inside _Waldo_'s cover advertising "Other SIGNET books
by Robert A. Heinlein."
  I got _Waldo_ at a used book sale for $0.50, and will eventually
read it I guess, but I'll have you know I got it cuz my *brother*
likes Heinlein -- not I.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 22:32:51 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>  It's been a while since I read this book, but the essay seems
>accurate from what I remember. I'd appreciate hearing what all you
>folks think about it's position and/or my position on this book or
>Heinlein in general.

Uh, one word comes to mind: superficial (the essay, that is).

The typical Heinlein novel takes a few philosophical or theoretical
concepts and tries to work throughsome of the details to present an
Image of the consequences of that philosophy.

Of course there are contradictions or rather counter-examples.  In
fact the end of the book has the Lunar Anarchy collapsing under the
weight of Human Nature and establised form...

Heinlein is not asking you to Believe, he is asking you to Think.

It is unfortunate that we too often have "gag reflexes" that make it
difficult to read things that we may not agree with and still try to
consider the issues on their own merits...  unfortunate that

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 07:59:41 GMT
From: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

  I think the essay is significantly off the mark, and just plain
wrong in at least one respect.  The essayist points out that the
revolution- aries were paying for the revolution by stealing from
their fellow Lunies.  True.  He (she?) then argues that this is
contrary to the moral philosophy Heinlein's protagonists are
promoting.  Right!

  And that's the whole point of the scene the essayist did *not*
reference, wherein Manny confronts LePaz and asks what the hell is
going on, and LePaz tells him, in essence, that theory is great but
he doesn't have any pragmatic alternatives.  The "there ain't no
such thing as a free lunch" (tanstaafl) theme recurs in Heinlein's
work.  Here it applies to overthrow of a pretty clearly defined
political (the Warden) and economic (fixed catapult head prices)
oppression.  This theme emphasizes the dependence of *all*
activities, no matter how moral, on pragmatic considerations
completely unaffected by morality, like gravity and atmosphere (or
the lack of it).

  It seems obvious to me, if not to the author of the essay, that
one of the points Heinlein is making is *not* how great rational
anarchy is, but rather how close to the edge *all* social
organizations are.  That moral philosophy is great as far as it
goes, and it doesn't go far enough to put bread on the table.  Look
at the scene where Mannie is thrown in jail for showing his family
portrait in Kentucky!  On the surface, Heinlein is showing how
irrational those degenerate Earthies are.  However, while the
prejudices of the Lunies are rationalized, and the prejudices of the
Earthies are shown in bad light, they both have prejudices!  It is
only because Heinlein made the irrationalities, moral compromises,
and prejudices of his protagonists so apparent that the essayist is
able to complain about the surface contradictions.

  There is more than one scene in the book where these
contradictions are more or less explicitly pointed out, by Heinlein.
I think *these* are the lessons that Heinlein is trying to get
across.  Only the most superficial analyst would claim that Heinlein
is singing a paean to the joys of shoving people out airlocks for
bad breath.  Citizens of both the Earth and the Moon are highly
constrained by their societies.  On the Earth, the constraints are
legislated and enforced by government.  On the Moon, the constraints
are conventional and enforced by consensus.  Under the surface
rhetoric, the Lunies freer than the Earthies in only one sense: they
are free to go someplace else when they disagree with conventions.
A moment's reflection will reveal that there *isn't* anywhere else
for them to go.  Heinlein made this point quite clear: they can't
even go to Earth!

  Look at the instance where LePaz tells Mannie that the Earth
committee was going to make an offer that would have been accepted
by the Lunies, and that he had had to be personally offensive to the
committee members to ensure that only an unacceptable offer would be
made.  Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from his
comrades, he is acting contrary to their interests!  This is not
some pointless inconsistency, Heinlein is making a point!  This goes
right along with the passages the essayist cites where LePaz stacks
the political convention and leads the non-conspirators by the nose.
The point, which is made *explicitly*, is leadership: Neither Earth
nor Luna are run by the masses.  There are only so many "anarchists"
who are rational political creatures and they are not so far, in
reality, from the Senators who rule the Earth.  Everybody else is
either competing for control, or out of the picture, and that means
almost everyone.  Welcome to reality.

  I could go on at length, but I think the essayist performed only a
superficial analysis, and was likely motivated by distaste for the
political and societal forms Heinlein established for his
protagonists.  Lunar society is not a Utopia, no matter how
comfortable Mannie is in his home environment.  Heinlein doesn't
claim it is, and goes to considerable length to point up *reality*
and the similarities between the protagonists and the antagonists.

  I happen to enjoy the book very much, but not on the basis of
analysis or politics.  I just think it's an outstanding story.

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 09:18:24 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

The author of that criticism has dug himself into a deep hole
because he assumes that it is written from the point of view of
Heinlein, rather than from the point of view of Mannie.  Mannie is a
superbly drawn character, but Mannie is not Heinlein.  You are
getting a story of the revolution written by one of the
revolutionaries.  It should not be surprising that *Mannie* thinks
that Luna is the new utopia -- but that says nothing about what
Heinlein believes.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura  utzoo!hoptoad!laura  sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 17:52:50 GMT
From: haste#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Maybe someone will appear to defend this essay, but I'm afraid it
won't be me.

'Anarchy is a very unstable form of government' (Niven?) and the
only thing that makes it possible on Luna is the Authority's
suppression of competing governments.  The anarchy collapses as soon
as the Authority is removed.

Perhaps the key line in the book is Bernardo de la Paz's "I am free,
no matter what rules surround me."  With the institution of
government, the Yammerheads who, in conditions of anarchy, could
only do retail damage, can now switch to wholesale.  I think that,
to a large extent, this *does* reflect Heinlein's views.  But his
answer to the Yammerheads is *not* anarchy and vacuum treatment --
they don't work.  The answer is to be free and responsible, whatever
the official rules currently happen to be.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 01:57:54 GMT
From: rpiacm!snuggle@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

> Heinlein: Trapped in a Cage of his Own Design
[A fairly reasonable essay on Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress" which ends with the following conclusion]
>      So in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein, the author and
> therefore the authority, asks the reader to reject authority, a
> contradiction in itself. He also asks the reader to swallow a pack
> of other contradictions, disguising tyranny and terror as freedom
> and happiness, and confusing barbaric and civilized societies. He
> thus erodes his own authority concerning the worlds he himself has
> created. The reader can resort logically to only one thing: the
> rejection of Heinlein's authority. He will not necessarily reject
> authority in general, but cannot accept Heinlein's authority
> specifically. Therefore, Heinlein is implicated, and any messages
> he might have tried to convey through the book are invalidated by
> his self-contradictions.

Oh really?  I wonder.  You are assuming you have correctly
interpreted what RAH's message/intent/purpose/etc was in writing
this book.  Over the years many people have attempted to define what
Heinlein's politics and beliefs are, all of them coming to many
widely varied conclusions.  He has been called anarchistic,
communistic, fascist, liberal, etc. all of them based upon what
people thought as his "message" in any one particular book.
However, what they all fail to do is look at ALL his books.  If you
do that you find that if his politics are reflected in his works,
then he is indeed a VERY confused individual.  Or, perhaps he just
doesn't want us to pin him down.

But, as to the conclusion of this otherwise good essay: it is said
that Heinlein's message is one of anarchy, that he is urging us to
defy authority.  However, as this essay correctly points out, his
"message" is self-contradicing.Therefore, the reader cannot look up
to Heinlein as an authority...and that's exactly what the "message"
urges us to do: DEFY AUTHORITY.  In other words, in a very brilliant
piece of fiction Heinlein has not only lain down the basics of
anarchistic principles, he has also succeeded in destroying that one
aspect of those principles which could be it's ultimate defeat: the
supposed AUTHORITY of it's author.  By destroying his own
credibility, Heinlein actually realizes in full his "message" of
anarchy.  Authority CANNOT be trusted, not even the author of the
"message" 'Authority CANNOT be trusted'!

Is there any wonder why I consider "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
perhaps RAH's single greatest work?

Chris Andersen
UUCP: ..!seismo!rpics!rpiacm!snuggle
BITNET: rpiacm!snuggle%csv.rpi.edu@rpitsmts.bitnet
INTERNET: rpiacm!snuggle@csv.rpi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 14:05:33 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Heinlein's Luna

With reference to the Essay and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

**** MORE MILD SPOILERS ***

First, to admit that I like this book.  It seems well constructed;
the characters are (mostly) believable and different, with
reasonable motivations.

Now for the point.  I think the author of the Essay has overlooked
something vital about lunar "manners".  He seems to think that
killing impolite people &c is just a social tradition, as it was in
that barbaric anarchy seventeenth-century France, for instance.
[That's sarcasm, by the way].  Leaving aside the question which is
civilised, a society that stuffs child molesters out through the
airlock or one that releases them on parole, there are valid
historical antecedents for Heinlein's postulated society.

Luna is a HOSTILE environment.  Man survives there by virtue of
advanced technology that must be reliable.  One idiot who doesn't
understand how a nuclear reactor works, or who falls asleep
monitoring the air supply, can kill a large number of people.  We
have these problems today with our technology, but in an extreme
case, such as the recent derailment of a trainload of toxic
chemicals here in Pittsburgh, you can at least head for the hills
and find air and water.  On Luna, you die.

So the whole society sets a great store by individual responsibility
- they have to.  That includes not just intelligence, or the
intelligence not to fool around, but an awareness of ones duty to
consider at all times the safety and welfare of ones fellows.  In
the Luna of the novel, this has reached an extreme, but the
foundation is sound: somebody who doesn't respect his fellows is a
danger to the whole community - if he gets drunk and insults you in
the street, why, he might be drunk when checking the emergency
bulkheads...

Now, I don't necessarily agree with this kind of social ethos, but
Heinlein's point, which surely is valid, is that the Lunar mores
have evolved out of their unique environment, and he makes a
plausible case for them.  To analyse them in isolation from their
context is not valid criticism.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 15:00:27 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Heinlein's credentials as a libertarian have always been suspect in
my mind.  Any decent libertarian theorist (and even most anarchists)
make provisions for protection of weak from strong.  Heinlein's
views have a bit too much of the feudal in them and rely on the idea
that the good are going to be strong enough to quash the bullies.
Still, I don't agree with the idea that Heinlein has no right to
express these views.  Also, this is science fiction, and Heinlein
could claim that this is just a story, not a blueprint for mankind.
After all, there are ideas in "Starship Troopers" that seem to
contradict this kind of anarchy.  There is also the valid question
as to how much brutality by individuals in Heinlein's world it takes
to outweight the massive institutional brutality of the kind
generated by almost all governments in this world.  Just how
"civilized" is nuclear war?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 87 18:33:07 EDT
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: RAH's Early Works

Eric Carpenter ran a list of Heinlein's early stuff (Tunnel in the
Sky, Rocket Ship GALILEO, etc.)  There was one story dealing with
selective breeding of H. Sap.-- from the description, I'd vote for
"The Day After Tomorrow", since "Methuselah's Children" would pretty
well account for stories involving the Howard Families.

In DAT, humanity is divided into people who have been bred (for
greater intell- igence, resistance to disease, lack of allergies...)
selectively, and into those people referred to as 'controls'-- no
variations from the basic stock.  The 'controls' provide a baseline
for humanity (and have allergies, and wear glasses).

So tell me, Eric-- did I get it right ?

Regards,
Dave Wegener

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 Apr 87 0957-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #185
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 87 0957-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #185
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 185

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (6 msgs) &
                             The Prisoner (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 18:48:35 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!gordon@RUTGERS.EDU (Gordon Joly)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom question

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>What exactly is a cross-hatch generator?

A cross-hatch generator is used to adjust the convergence of the
three colours on television. We have PAL in the U.K., whereas the
U.S.A. uses N.T.S.C. for the colour signal. I am not sure if that
makes any difference.

Gordon Joly
{seismo,ucbvax,decvax}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!gordon

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 16:14:19 GMT
From: seismo!sun!fluke!ssc-vax!cxsea!blm@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Matthews)
Subject: Re: Origin of "ICE" as a term for computer security

dm3h#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dennis Moul) writes:
>WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET (John White) asks:
>>    And, from the previews last week of this weeks program, they
>>seem to be bringing in ICE, as in computer security (so named in
>>Gibson's Neuromancer).  (Side note: Did Gibson make up the term?
>>I think that's where I first (and only, so far) saw it used.)
>
>I'm sure the term originated considerably before _Neuromancer_.  I
>recall a story about "black ICE" (security that kills intruders by
>backfeeding massive electrical shocks through the keyboard) in an
>old ('78-'80?)  Fantasy & Science Fiction (F&SF) or Isaac Asimov's
>SF Magazine (IASFM).

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall a story like this, but I
have no idea where or when I read it.

>I don't recall exactly what ICE stands for, though. Intelligent
>Countermeasures Electronics, perhaps?

In _Neuromancer_ at least, ICE stands for Intruder Countermeasures
Electronics.

Brian L. Matthews
...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm
+1 206 251 6811

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 21:50:55 GMT
From: ames!borealis!ptsfa!cogent!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Captain Neptune)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom Television Seriew

When a novel idea such as Max Headroom is put into the form of a TV
series, I tend to be wary and nervously await it's downfall.  Case
in point: "V" started as a very *good* mini-series (and I usually
hate mini-series'!)  The end result was a sappy corny and downright
stupid TV series that was shot down after less than a half season
(and not a minute too soon).

Well, Max Headroom was always fascinating to me and I never got to
see the HBO special that it originated from...so I thought "Gee!  I
can see it on TV every week now!  But wait!  What if it goes the way
that 'V' did?"  To see Max Headroom become the victim of network TV
incompetence like so many other good ideas have would be tragic.  So
I have watched it...nervously.

I am, however, pleased to announce that this commonly observed
disaster has not yet occured on the "Max Headroom" series.  I'm
still watching...  it's still keeping my interest...no sap deteceted
yet...they just might pull off a success here.

Let's hope the same is true of Star Trek next year...

Mark Steven Jeghers
{ihnp4,cbosgd,lll-lcc,lll-crg}|{dual,ptsfa}!cogent!mark

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 00:30:43 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom Television Seriew

Though I saw *my* first episode just last week, I enjoyed it much
more than I though I would.  I am one of those people who think Max
Headroom is pretentiously trite.  Despite this, I liked the show.
To me, the worst portions were those in which Max figured
prominently.  I liked most of the rest, and by the end of the show I
had attained the correct state of mind to appreciate even Max (no
drugs, just my own warped psyche).  I enjoyed the social commmentary
bits, which were gone over too fast for your average couch potato to
loose any sleep over.  I especially liked the title of the program
which replaced Edison's program, "Lumpy's Proletariat".  All in all,
I think I will watch the show fairly regularly, and that is saying
something, since I only watch re-runs of Star Trek with any
regularity whatsoever.

T. Russell Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 18:44:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!retief@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: More on Max Headroom

>     I can see why the network would try to soften up and unconfuse
> Max for the American audience, but that doesn't mean I have to
> like it.  If that's why Max is so different, then I think that
> stinks.  I like Max, both this way, and the original way (sorta
> like Coke).  But if the producers thought they HAD to tone the
> weirdness down, then I wonder if the series can last.  I hope it
> does.

My fear is that despite dilution and apparent simplification, good
old Max will still be too "weird" for the American TV audience
taste.  I certainly hope that I'm being to pessimistic; despite the
changes that people are bemoaning, I still enjoy the show a good bit
more than the run-of-the mill.  Like, totally.

..ihnp4!bradley!retief

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 15:30:00 GMT
From: blanken@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Max Headroom Television Seriew

Yes, Max has been on network TV for only a short while.  Some of us
here at the U of I have been watching Max since his first appearance
on cable TV, the host of a music video show.  Since his rise to
commoditization (possible word, maybe?), Max has departed from his
original, yet charismatic, naivete.  His refreshing point of view on
many subjects was the source of much laughter and humor for all of
us here.  We especially liked his interviews with major rock stars
like Roger Daltry, the fallen star Boy George, and David Bowie.  The
best part of Max's interviews is the way he ripped down the veil of
aloofness from these people and brought them down to Earth...really
refreshing.

Unfortunately, Max has taken up Coke commercials almost full time.
He has a six figure contract with option for renewal.  I liked Max
when he was less a star and more original in his approach. A
definite satirist, Max was great among the newcomers.

Matt Frewer, the creator of Max Headroom, should've held out longer
before succumbing to the wealth easily gained by going with the
American corporate giants.  Don't get me wrong here, Frewer probably
followed his instincts with good intentions, but the american
populace will burn out on Max too soon.  I would hate to see Max go
the way of a fad instead of enduring on to be a trend.

Eric Blankenburg
University of Illinois
ARPA:   blanken@a.cs.uiuc.edu
CSNET:  blanken@uiuc.csnet
UUCP:   {ihnp4, pur-ee, convex}!uiucdcs!blanken

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 17:00:11 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Prisoner **SPOILERS**

Last night 4/20 I saw the last episode (#17) of the Prisoner on
channel 50 in Chicago.

This is the third time I've seen this episode, and I still am
confused.  Was a "formal explanantion" of the last episode ever
published by the producers of the show, fan club, etc.  or is it up
to the individual viewer to draw his own conclusions?

Perhaps our own interpretations of the final episode would make an
interesting discussion in this newsgroup.

Anyway, on to my questions:

No. 48 and Leo Mckern's No. 2 presumably died in earlier episodes,
yet reappear at the final episode.  Do the "guardians" of the
Village have control over life and death, or were the deaths of
these two men induced by drugs, etc.?

Who IS No. 1?

When No.6 is introduced to No. 1, the face shown is a black/white
mask, which hides the mask of a monkey, which hides the face of No.6
himself!  Is this another joke that is played on No.6, and No.1 is
actually never revealed?

What is the purpose of the Rocket lift-off?

Was the village run by aliens from another planet? (This is the only
logical reason I can determine for their possession of advanced
technology, etc. and the "dissolving" scene of "Rover" the big white
beach ball!! at the end of the show!)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 02:59:00 GMT
From: sl109001@silver.bacs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Prisoner **SPOILERS**

>Last night 4/20 I saw the last episode (#17) of the Prisoner on
>channel 50 in Chicago.
>
>Was the village run by aliens from another planet? (This is the
>only logical reason I can determine for their possession of
>advanced technology, etc. and the "dissolving" scene of "Rover" the
>big white beach ball!! at the end of the show!)

Wow!  Another Prisoner fan!  Nice to meet you.  I loved this series
myself, and am now in the process of re-watching them after ten
years.  I haven't seen episode #17 recently enough to answer your
questions though.  Sorry.

But what I did want to point out is that Rover was actually a
weather balloon, pulled along by thin cables usually.  Tough
'ol weather balloon, that Rover.

Sincerely,

Colin Klipsch
Indiana University at Bloomington
sl109001@silver.bacs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 22:22:41 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
> I was wondering if any or all of the episodes of "The Prisoner"
> are out on videotape and if so, where I could get them.  Also,
> along the same lines, are there any novelizations of any of the
> episodes?  Though they show them here in Denver (and on PBS
> stations in many other cities, too), I always seem to see the same
> ones over and over again.  Are there any other Prisoner/McGoohan
> fans out there?  For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is
> his lesser-known series (I would think many more people know about
> the "Secret Agent" one), I always like it better.

All the Prisoner episodes are out on videotape (I've seen them in
Tower Records' video section).  As far as I know there are no
novelizations of the episodes, though there is a book by Thomas M.
Disch based on the series (actually, it has almost no bearing on the
series, but it IS by Disch; it's well-written if you can ignore its
unfaithfulness to the series, and it leaves an incredible number of
loose ends at the end).  There are also two other books (loosely)
based on the series and somehow connected to each other, but I never
read them.  I don't think these two were ever published in America
-- the only copies I've seen were British editions (from Target,
maybe?).  There are lots of other fans out there, and several large
fan clubs (I don't have the addresses on me; e-mail if you're
interested).  One of them has an annual trip to Portmeirion (sp?),
where most of The Prisoner was filmed.

jed hartman
{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 13:43:52 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>
Cc: isis!udenva!agranok@seismo.css.gov
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

Yes, all 17 episodes of The Prisoner are out on video. I found them
in a video store in Pasadena, CA (my home) that carries lots of
obscure stuff. You should be warned, though, that the tapes are in
the wrong order. Apparently, the episodes were produced in one order
and aired in another. The tapes are numbered in the order the shows
aired in originally. I have been able to figure out some of the
correct order, but I'm still unsure of where some of the episodes
go, and I couldn't really say without a list of titles in front of
me. I watched the entire series (for the first time) earlier this
year at the rate of two shows every Tuesday (three the last week).
More than two hours of The Prisoner at one sitting can give you a
really serious case of Purple Tapioca Brain. Watching the last three
episodes in one sitting was very weird.  There is a very strong
continuity in the last few episodes, and the last three together
make for a very powerful statement of something that I haven't quite
figured out yet. By the way, The Prisoner #17 gets my vote for the
weirdest hour of television shown EVER.

If anybody has information as to the correct order of the episodes,
I'd like to hear it. Mail to me and I'll post to the net.

be seeing you

Josh Susser
Susser.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 00:46:03 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Prisoner **SPOILERS**

rwn@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes:
>Last night 4/20 I saw the last episode (#17) of the Prisoner on
>channel 50 in Chicago.
>
>This is the third time I've seen this episode, and I still am
>confused.  Was a "formal explanantion" of the last episode ever
>published by the producers of the show, fan club, etc.

   No.  Pat McGooham, however, has made appearances for discussion
groups.  He made a very memorable appearance before a class, I think
of Ryerson Polytechnic in Toronto, Ontario, which was filmed and
broadcast over public television.  Warner Troyer was the chairman
for the question period.

   What do you want it to mean?

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive, Toronto
(416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 16:03:56 BST
From: <ENU2856%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: The Prisoner.

The Prisoner is being released on video over here in Britain, in its
entirety.  The company doing them is Channel 5 (W.H.Smiths and
Woolworths are their main retail outlets).  They are being released
with (I think) two episodes per tape, at about 10 pounds each tape.
(Channel 5 have just released "The Cage" all British ST fans).

Whether they had already been put out in the States seems doubtful
to me, since it was a British show.  I've no doubt that they will
soon appear over there if the response over here is good enough.

There is a good episode run-down in the current issue of Starburst
(no 104) but I think that this is a British magazine.

ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@UCL-CS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 17:53 EDT
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@mit-multics.arpa>
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

All of the episodes of "The Prisoner" are on videotape.  I rented
them all over a period of time (as they were being released) from my
local Tower Records.  There are three Prisoner novels, but they are
not novelizations of episodes.  The novels are "The Prisoner" by
Thomas Disch, "Who is Number Two?" by David McDaniel, and "A Day in
the Life" by Hank Stine.  They are available from Laissez-Faire
Books, 532 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, NY 10012.

Jim
Lippard at MULTICS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 20:38:01 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: THE PRISONER

From:   udenva!agranok  (Alex Granok)
> ...are there any novelizations of any of the episodes?

Well, there were three novels written based on the series:

THE PRISONER            Thomas M. Disch         1969
NUMBER TWO              David McDaniel          1970
A DAY IN THE LIFE       Hank Stine              1970

There have been long out of print in the US and are very difficult
to come by. Used-book dealers in the sf world charge major bucks for
them. There are British paperback editions that at least until
fairly recently were still in print. They may be easier to find, and
cheaper. I think there were British hardcover editions as well.

From:  <ENU2856%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
> The Prisoner is being released on video over here in Britain, in
> its entirety....  Whether they had already been put out in the
> States seems doubtful to me, since it was a British show.  I've no
> doubt that they will soon appear over there if the response over
> here is good enough.

I hate to tell you this, but they've been available over here for
about two or more years. I can't believe that they've only started
to appear in the UK. If your other info is correct, you're getting a
bargain. Two episodes per tape at 10 pounds per tape?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 Apr 87 1012-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #186
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 87 1012-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #186
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 186

Today's Topics:

                Television - UFO & Quark (5 msgs) &
                             Lost in Space (4 msgs) &
                             DangerMouse (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 87 17:37:16 GMT
From: m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: "UFO" TV series update

The May issue of Video Review has a little blurb on Anderson's TV
series, "U.F.O.".  Since the article is so small, I'll unshame-
fully copy it verbatim:

   We always try to bring like-minded people together, whatever
   their passions may be. VR reader James Killian of Sumiton, AL,
   wants to maintain a close encounter of the postal kind with other
   fans of the early '70s British TV program U.F.O.

   A company called ITC still syndicates U.F.O. to American
   TV-stations.  So, if you identify with U.F.O. fans, write:

      S.H.A.D.O. *U.S.E.C.C.
      125 Fort Hill St. #3
      New Milford, CT  06776

I have no idea how the above address correlates to ITC or Mr.
Killian of Alabama, or why the '*' is in the first line.

Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
{cbosgd, gatech, ihnp4, linus, mirror, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 87 09:11:42 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Quark

Quark was a very funny show (at least to those of us who like
Richard Benjamin and know all the SF movies they were parodying)
that lasted only for one summer season.  That puts it around 10-15
episodes.

The cast was Ficus, the unemotional plant science officer who had
most of the really great lines.  Like when Quark went outside to fix
something and came back in as an old man. He said, "Ficus, how did I
get so old?" Ficus replied, "One hypothesis is that you were outside
for ten years."  Then there's that great blank stare.  Or the time
some girl was trying to seduce Ficus and they ended up pollinating.
They layed on their backs with their arms and legs in the air (sort
of like a dead dog) and she says, "Now what?"  "We wait for the
bees."  There were other direct parodies of popular Star Trek shows
too.

The clones, Betty and Betty.  Each claimed to be the original and
was willing to argue about it.  Loudly.

The grisly old scientist with a patch over his eye (he lost it when
someone slapped him on the back while he was looking through a
microscope).

That stupid robot that he built.

"Mank you."
"That's 'Thank you'."
"You're melcome"

All in all, I enjoyed it as the ridiculous drivel that it was.

Jon
pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87  11:09:16 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: QUARK

All I saw of Quark was one episode where an energy creature was
eating everything in its path, including gravity. It was stopped
when the ship's robot tried to make love to the garbage control unit
and spewed the garbage into space when the creature was attacking
the ship. Quark ranks up there(or down there) with Hardware Wars,
Star Drek, and Airplane.

------------------------------

Date: THURSDAY 04/23/87 11:26:40 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>
Subject: Quark

I remember Quark!!  I loved it; there was Ficus the Vegeton,
Gene/Jean the Transmute, and Betty1 & Betty2 the clone twins; there
was also a 'mad scientist' type, and a robot who was a coward.
There were also the characters Otto Palindrome, chief of Space
Station Perma 1 (played by Conrad Janis, later to play the father in
'Mork & Mindy'), and "The Head", the leader of them all, with a 39
hat size......

My personal thought on Quark was that it died because too many of
its jokes went over the heads of the idiot masses.  (Look, the
people of this country elected *Reagan* -- TWICE!  No way can you
overestimate their stupidity!!!)

George Madison
7GMADISO@POMONA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 14:24:41 CDT
From: Paul Havlak <paco@rice.edu>
Subject: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any
Subject: competition?)

    As far as I what I saw and can recall (and I was in junior high
at the time) Quark had one pilot show before Star Wars, then a big
(perhaps one-hour) show after Star Wars which was a direct parody,
with The Source and a big enemy battleship etc.
    I believe Richard Benjamin played Commander Quark and twins
played Betty and Betty (which one's the clone?).  The other regular
characters I can remember were Ficus, the first officer ("Ficus, why
do you have a gauge in your ear"), perhaps another scientist type
(my memory fails me there), and Quark's superior back at the base,
some guy with a huge brain and similarly-sized migraines.
    One of the my favorite scenes was early in the first pilot, when
the ship is closing in on its target, the crew is all excited, and
Commander Quark is tense at the controls (at this point, there's no
indication that this is a comedy).  Cut to an exterior shot of the
ship (what was its name anyway?) as its cargo bay drop open,
manipulator arms swing out, and, to the tune (I think) of "Thus
Spake Zarathustra," guide a Hefty bag the size of a house into the
cargo hold.
    I really liked it, but suspect that it never had a very large
audience.  I'm not sure that NBC gave it a fair chance; I don't
recall ever seeing an ad for the show, and I don't think it ever was
on a regular weekly schedule.

paco

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 03:23:35 GMT
From: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu (Elliott Buchholz)
Subject: Re: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any
Subject: competition?)

I agree totally.  Quark, for my cubits, was one of the funniest SF
parodies ever created.  It never got the chance it deserved.  Every
device and plot had some parody element to it.  No SF movie or show
was sacred to it.  Star Trek, I believe, was the most parodied
subject.  Thre was the episode where Adam Quark was accidentally
split into good Quark, Bad Quark.  Also, I've heard many rumors,
although haven't I been able to check if it's true or not, that the
theme to Quark was the Star Trek theme played backwards.  Bythe
Lords of Kobol, what I wouldn't give for the episodes on VHS.

Now, for those who like detailed info on the series read on.  If
not, hit 'q' now:

QUARK
30 min NBC (they killed ST, too!)  Feb. 24, 1978-April 14, 1978 8
episodes

Science Fiction Comedy set in the year 2226 A.D.
The voyages of an interplanetary garbage scow whose mission, on
behalf of the U.G.S.P. (United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol) is to clean
up the Milky Way.

Cast:

Captain Adam Quark                            Richard Benjamin
Betty I, the co-pilot                         Tricia Barnstable
Betty II, her clone, the co-pilot             Cyb Barnstable
Ficus, the Vegeton, a plant being,
the emotionless Science Officer               Richard Kelton
Gene/Jean, the transmute, the chief
engineer                                      Tim Thomerson
Andy, the cowardly robot                      Bobby Porter
The Head, the head of the U.G.S.P.            Allan Caillou
Otto Palindrome, the chief architect
of Space Station Perma One, the
base for the U.G.S.P.                         Conrad Janis

Music:Perry Botkin, Jr.
Executive Producer:  David Gerber
Producer: Bruce Johnson
Director:  Hy Averback, Bruce Bilson, Peter H. Hunt
Creator:  Buck Henry

And that's my trip down Memory Lane.
Now back to our regulary scheduled net.

Elliott Buchholz
ARPA:  buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!topaz!buchholz
Bitnet: buchholz@zodiac.bitnet
(201)-247-6544
201 Joyce Kilmer Ave
New Brunswick, NJ 08901

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 00:37:50 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: LiS (not SW) influence

tek@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim (ATW)) writes:
> sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>>Apparently there was an episode of (ready?) LOST IN SPACE in which
>>Will's father found this evil alien mask, see, and put it on, and
>>it
>
> For some reason, the women of the LOST IN SPACE crew were occupied
> or otherwise out of the picture. The alien mask tries to convince
> Will and the others that his father has been abducted, and that
> they must modify the Jupiter II in order to give chase. Of course,
> Will figures out whats really happening and so on.

This summary is a little off.  Yes there was a mask -- more like a
helmet -- but I don't think that Will was going to modify the
Jupiter II.  I think that this was the last episode of the first
season, and at that time, Will was quite young, just getting
familiar with the robot.  The JII was (surprise) crashed on a
planet, and not flyable.  The alien (mask) that had taken over John
Robinson had the technical abilities to fix the ship, but had not
completed the modifications, when everybody got so sick of his
nastiness.  I think that Dr. J.R. finally "broke the spell" when he
was being forced to kill Will (or maybe just let him die).  I think
that John finally threw the mask down a very deep crevice, never to
be seen again.

Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm sure
I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as Gospel?  BTW,
the first season of the show wasn't really all that bad.  Dr. Smith
was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the robot was just a
little bit scary (and not human).

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (a UUCP domain)
{cci632,cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,linus,necntc,uiucdcs,umcp-cs}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 20:32:14 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: LiS (not SW) influence

gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
>Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm sure
>I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as Gospel?
>BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that bad.  Dr.
>Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the robot was just
>a little bit scary (and not human).

Alright, I admit it. I used to watch Lost in Space as reruns after
school when it replaced Gilligan's Island. It was kinda stupid,
though. I don't think it really merited my valuable time 8-), but it
was kind of fun in a mindless sort of way.
  Its main problem was that it was way oh waaaayy too sickly,
sweetly, happily FIFTIES! (Note: I don't even know if it was really
filmed in the 50's or not, but it must have been around in there
somewhere, and it certainly *looks* like a fifties kind of thing. It
is, at least, 50's at heart!)
  Maybe this has something to do with our 80's Return to the Fifties
destiny!

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 21:53:33 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: LiS (not SW) influence

gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
>Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm sure
>I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as Gospel?
>BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that bad.  Dr.
>Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the robot was just
>a little bit scary (and not human).

Actually, I seem to recollect that the first episode was rather good
and had me kind of sitting on the edge of the sofa in suspense.  Of
course I was maybe a little younger at the time and the show quickly
degenerated into typical network sitcom silliness.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 10:00:02 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ohlone!nelson@RUTGERS.EDU (Bron Nelson)
Subject: Re: LiS (not SW) influence

gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
> Since nobody in this group ever admits having watched LiS, I'm
> sure I won't be contradicted on this, so why not take it as
> Gospel?  BTW, the first season of the show wasn't really all that
> bad.  Dr. Smith was a pretty decent bad guy back then, and the
> robot was just a little bit scary (and not human).

Actually, the first couple of episodes of the first season were
really pretty good (at least, by the standards of the day).  Doc
Smith was a very clever, intelligent, and ruthless agent of a
foreign power.  Sadly, this ended all too soon, and the show drifted
into vapidity (probably, they ran out of the ideas they stole from
Roddenberry).

Bron Nelson
{ihnp4, lll-lcc}!ohlone!nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1987 01:22 CDT
From: a.d. jensen <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: DangerMouse

I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on Nickelodean
every night, and had a couple of questions about the series:

1) Are these all repeats?  Is so, are they making any more?  How
   many were made?

2) Does DM ever have any enemies other than Greenback?

3) I've got most of them figured out, but what in God's name is
   the furry thing always hanging around Greenback.

Please post replies to the net and I will summarize in my mailbox.
:-)

a.d. jensen
Department of Geography
University of North Dakota
Grand Forks, ND  58201
<UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 15:19:51 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: DangerMouse

Oh boy, a DM question!

From: a.d. jensen <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on Nickelodean
> every night, and had a couple of questions about the series:
>
> 1) Are these all repeats?  Is so, are they making any more?  How
>    many were made?

As far as I know, yes, these are all repeats, and no, they're not
making any more.  Cosgrove-Hall is now doing "The Wind in the
Willows".  I detect 3 distinct "seasons", though I have no other
proof of this.  I count 73 titles, of which 18 are either 2-part or
double-length.

I've been taping these with an eye towards doing an episode guide,
but I'm not done yet (VCR problems...).  I do think I have all the
titles, though.  Shall I post?

> 2) Does DM ever have any enemies other than Greenback?

Oh, my, yes.  If you want recurring villains, there's Count Duckula,
J.J.  Quark, and (a recurring "character", at least) the
time-travelling clock.

Other notable one-shots are the mad composer Wufgang (my *favorite*
episode!), Copper-Conk Casssidy (2nd favorite), the Gremlin, the
Dimensional Demon, El Loco, Jones the Dragon, and Master Longsnout.
There are others.

> 3) I've got most of them figured out, but what in God's name is
>    the furry thing always hanging around Greenback.

Nero?  He's a caterpillar, and Greenback's "precious" pet.

Locally, we had been getting DM on Nickelodeon and on Sunday
mornings on another channel.  This was notable because they had
shorts called "Secret Agent Secrets" between episodes.  Then they
decided to replace DM with a talk show featuring NYC Mayor Koch.
Uproar!  People demanded DM back.  An issue of the Daily News
featured an illustration of Koch and DM slugging it out in a boxing
ring.  I'm not sure what the latest is.

> Please post replies to the net and I will summarize in my mailbox.
> :-)

No way I'm going to pass up an opportunity to convert people to
DM-watchers!

Fun facts to tell your friends: Oxford University (yes, in England)
is the home of the Dangermouse Appreciation Society.  No, I don't
have an address for them.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 05:05:43 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Re: DangerMouse

2) In addition to Baron Silas Greenback, DM and Penfold have tangled
with Count Duckula, little green men from space, and a Welsh dragon
(that's a strange one, innit, boyo?)

3) Silas Greenback seems to be a parody on James Bond's enemy Auric
Gold- finger.  The toad's pet caterpiller, Nero, is the counterpart
to the latter's pet cat.

...be QUIET, Penfold!

Karen Black
c/o
Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 Apr 87 1033-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #187
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Apr 87 1033-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #187
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 187

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous - Androids & Telepathy (3 msgs) &
                          Influences on SF (5 msgs) & 
                          Some Errata & Gardner Fox &
                          Photos at Cons &
                          Creating the Perfect Creature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 87 06:18:07 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu
Subject: the word "android"

By the way, I noticed no one bothered to look it up in the OED when
this was being discussed.  If you want to know, they claim it was
invented by an early 18th century lexicographer.  OED says the word
is "rare".  This is out of date, of course.  The supplement cites C
Simak _Time and Again_ with a 1951 usage, and says that the word is
no longer rare.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 20:52:28 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: telepathy isn't always good (was Re: Silverberg's "Dying
Subject: Inside")

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
>Are there any other instances in SF where the subject of telepathy
>is treated as a curse rather than a gift?

David Cronenberg's movie SCANNERS deals with a group of people whose
mothers were given an experimental drug during pregnancy; the
children are involuntary telepaths. Most of them wind up quite
unpleasantly insane. I saw the movie many years ago and would very
much like to see it again; I remember it as being very good and some
of the chilling scenes have stayed with me quite vividly. For those
who hear "Cronenberg" and think "gore", there are in fact two
splatter scenes: one at the very beginning of the movie and one at
the very end. Other than that, you're safe.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 16:46:00 PST
From: Marty Cohen <mcohen@nrtc.arpa>
Subject: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing

A short story I read numerous years ago (authors name forgotten)
dealt with the only two telepaths in the world. Their paths first
crossed on trains going in opposite directions. When they finally
met, they were initially overjoyed, but when they began
telepathically (and involuntarily) exchanging their most personal
and embarrassing thoughts and memories, they became disgusted with
each other.

The last lines of the story, as I recall them were:

"Get out of my mind. I hate you."

Marty Cohen
Northrop Research and Technology Center
mcohen@nrtc.northrop.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 18:28:34 GMT
From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing

Zelazny wrote an extremely powerful short story about an adult
telepath and a child telepath.  The story is in _Last Defender of
Camelot_ and I believe it is called 'The Power'.  If you haven't
read the story, find the book and read it!

Anne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 08:48 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Wars Influences

Well, there's stealing and there's stealing.  It's not a coincidence
that a "Hero with a thousand faces" can be compiled: all these myths
serve a common function for the human psyche.  Certainly not all of
the creators of these hero myths referenced Mr. Campbell's work or
even any other hero myth.

I took a course in myth that was one of my alltime favorites in
college, and we started out talking about Star Wars.  One of the
really fun parts of the class was realizing how so many of my
favorite SF stories fit into these mythic patterns.  I had a
terrible time deciding on the subject of my final paper, having
ideas for Forbidden Planet, Star Trek, Space:1999 and Doctor Who.

Also, I found it fascinating to observe how neatly a story I had
written fit into these patterns.  When writing it, I assure you, I
had not only never read other people's observations of these mythic
cycles, but had never, consciously, recognized them.

I don't think that, just because a story fits into these common
patterns, that an argument can be made for stealing.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1987 15:00 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Under even more influences

I have heard other people find the following influences on StarWars...

"Tatooin" is like Arakis - complete with robed fighters in the deep
desert.

Spielberg refers to wanting C3P0 to look like a Fritz Lang(?) Robot.

C3P0 and R2D2 being Laurel & Hardy.

Alec Guiness playing Obi-Wan exactly like he played "Harcourt
Riley"? in Elliott's "Cocktail Party".

What *I* have always wanted to find in Star Wars was something
original.

PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
Dick Botting
Dept Comp Sci.
Cal State U, San Bernardino, CA 92407
voice:714-887-7368

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 22:52:18 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Star Wars Influences

I have no certain knowledge of the truth of this; it was published
in an apa (fan magazine-type thing) I was a member of several years
ago...

Apparently there was an episode of (ready?) LOST IN SPACE in which
Will's father found this evil alien mask, see, and put it on, and it
took over his mind and made him do all sorts of nastiness. At the
climax of the episode, Dad, wearing mask, is holding poor Will
suspended in mid-air over the edge of a cliff, and threatening to
drop him to his death on the cruel rocks below, etc. etc., and Will
is screaming and crying "You're not my father, you're an evil alien
mask, Dad, please wake up, don't let it rule you, Dad, please," and
finally Dad, with a heroic effort, wrenches the mask off and pitches
it over the cliff and hugs Will.

Sound familiar?

(Did anyone ever see this episode? I.e. can anyone vouch for the
truth of this story? I can't.)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 04:22:04 GMT
From: tek@locus.ucla.edu (Ted Kim (ATW))
Subject: Re: Star Wars Influences

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>Apparently there was an episode of (ready?) LOST IN SPACE in which
>Will's father found this evil alien mask, see, and put it on, and
>it ...  (Did anyone ever see this episode? I.e. can anyone vouch
>for the truth of this story? I can't.)

Yes, I remember seeing this episode a long time ago. I don't recall
all the details, but it went something like this:

For some reason, the women of the LOST IN SPACE crew were occupied
or otherwise out of the picture. The alien mask tries to convince
Will and the others that his father has been abducted, and that they
must modify the Jupiter II in order to give chase. Of course, Will
figures out whats really happening and so on.

As to whether this has anything to do with STAR WARS. Well, yes his
father is masked and temporarily evil. But that's about as similar
as the stories get.

ted
ARPAnet: TEK@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
UUCP: ... !ucbvax!ucla-cs!tek

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 18:00:41 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Star Wars influences and planets

jjw@celerity.UUCP (Jim ) writes:
> What I like best about Star Wars is the way it imitates and
> reflects so many previous works.  I find it strange that the tone
> of the discussion seems to be derogatory, as if this imitation was
> a fault.  I like the discussion because being aware of these
> influences increases my enjoyment of the films.  What`s original
> about Star Wars is the way all these influences have been
> lovingly, and carefully combined in a quality manner.

Part of great literature, and particularly poetry, is sticking in
references to other great works to enhance the literary value of the
current work (which is why it is so hard to read great poetry: to
understand the poem you need to have read all the other poems
written before it). One thing I liked about "The Wrath of Khan" was
its references to "Moby Dick", "Paradise Lost", and Platos' eulogy
for Socrates (or vice versa; I can never keep their names straight).
The trend these days in science fiction movies (most notably those
made by Lucas and Spielberg) is to stick in references to earlier
science fiction movies (and movies in general) to enhance the value
of the movie they are making. The aliens in "Close Encounters of the
Third Kind" and even E.T. resembled the alien we saw in "War of the
Worlds," for example. "Star Wars" is a prime example of this. The
only time when this fails overall is when there are too many
references to earlier works and not enough substance in the current
movie, most notably in "Gremlins."

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 18:19:06 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Errata on various subjects

There're a few postings in SFL that bear correcting. It's easier for
all if I do it all in one posting rather than "n" separate messages.

From:   lsuc!jimomura   (Jim Omura)
> ...As far as who could be taken as having ripped off from the
> other, I believe Star Wars' first screening predates Kirby's New
> Gods...

No it doesn't. Kirby's New Gods Tetralogy (THE FOREVER PEOPLE, THE
NEW GODS, MR. MIRACLE, and JIMMY OLSEN) were published circa 1971.
STAR WARS didn't appear until 1977, though Lucas developed the story
earlier.

>>rakes in money by the truckload for stolen ideas, Jack Kirby can't
>>make a cent off those very ideas.
>
>     Wellll, I don't think Jack Kirby is starving exactly....

Actually, as a comment to the previous poster, Kirby *is* making
money off of the New Gods stuff. DC did something that was almost
unheard of in the industry. When the "Super Powers" figures were
licensed, DC asked Kirby to redesign the characters, which gave him
a royalty from the licensing that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa     (Dave Wegener)

> ...I obtained my copy of [WALL OF SERPENTS] by mail from Phantasia
> Press... They issued it in hardback... about 2 or 3 years ago.  I
> haven't seen it in paperback, but it might well be out there...

The Phantasia edition came out *eight* years ago, not "2 or 3".  It
was followed a year later by a Dell paperback.

From:   watnot!dagibbs

> I would like to correct you on the relationship between Marion
> Zimmer Bradley and Paul Edwin Zimmer; they are not sister/brother,
> they are married.

They may be married (actually, I don't know about Paul), but not to
each other. They are indeed siblings. Bradley's full name is Marion
Zimmer Bradley Breen. She's married to Walter Breen, who still (I
think) runs the Friends of Darkover group.  The "Bradley" comes from
her first husband, Robert Bradley; the "Zimmer" from her father,
Leslie Zimmer. My source is R. Reginald's SCIENCE FICTION AND
FANTASY LITERATURE, VOLUME 2: AUTHOR BIOGRAPHIES (Gale Press, 1979).
What's yours?

From:   phoenix!dykimber

> Silent Running, with Bruce Dern: a classic among classics, it
> predates 2001 and it's just...well, a must see.

Not quite. 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY was released in 1968, SILENT
RUNNING in 1972. It was Doug Trumbull's work on 2001 that gave
him the pull to direct SILENT RUNNING.

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu   (Dick Botting)

> I have heard other people find the following influences on
> StarWars...  [...]  Spielberg refers to wanting C3P0 to look like
> a Fritz Lang(?) Robot.

It's Lucas, not Spielberg. The latter had nothing to do with STAR
WARS. And by the way, the "Fritz Lang robot" referred to is the
imitation Maria from the classic film METROPOLIS (1926).

From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

> I saw both the British and American movies about the Triffids
> although I have yet to read the book. The American version is a
> typical trashy sf B-movie... The British version was 5 hour-long
> segments where the acting, special effects, and plot were far
> superior.

Not to counter your comparison of the two, but the 1963 film was
British as well, not American.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 87 17:01 EST
From: KGEISEL%cgi.com@relay.cs.net
Subject: More Gardner F. Fox

If someone IS compiling a list of works by Fox, they should be aware
of his very popular "Niall of the Far Travels" fantasy series
written for _Dragon_ magazine.  This is some of the best magazine
fiction I've ever read.

Shadow of a Demon               #2
Beyond the Wizard Fog           #5
The Stolen Sacrifice            #13
The Thing from the Tomb         #23
The Eyes of Mavis Deval         #33
The Cube from Beyond            #36
The Cup of Golden Death         #38
The Lure of the Golden Godling  #44

and

Out of the Eons in _Dragontales_, a special one-time anthology
published by _Dragon_ in 1980.  This is probably not available any
more.  Its NOT in the TSR back issue catalog.

Fox was truly a great writer.  He was also very prolific.  A
compilation of his works would be difficult, to say the least.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 15:46:59 GMT
From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE)
Subject: Photography at sf cons

   Hi!  I'm going to write a guide for photography at sf cons, and
I'd appreciate any help you can give me.  I've already posted to
rec.photo for technical information (although if I get some from
here I'll be very appreciative).  What I'd like to know are manners
and customs.  Things like not using flash during the masquerade (is
this true) and no cameras in the art display room (always true).
   My intended audience ranges from people who just bought disc
cameras to experienced newspaper photogs, from people who go to 8
cons a year to utter mundanes (I've been to two cons, so you'll have
to tell me a lot of stuff), from 13 year old attendees to their
grandparents.  I want information, but I can't get it by hook or by
crook.  Thank you in advance.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 21:38:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!spock@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: The perfect (??) creature

I have a question for any creative science-fiction lovers:

I once tried to create a "perfect" creature.  If I were able to make
a living breathing creature, HOW WOULD I DESIGN IT ????

I would like some opinions about, say, how many arms, for example
would be most efficient.  This IS NOT limited to number of arms!

It doesn't need to fit into OUR society, I can make up it's society
depending on it's body and it's abilities.  (like if it's more
intellectual, then it would probably be more of a scientific society
:-)

I'm trying to figure out what they might breathe.  Maybe hydrogen,
since it's so abundant, but the heavier elements are more attracted
by a planet's gravity, so it might be a slightly heavier element.
Water is almost a must, simply because it is one of the FEW (anyone
know the others) compounds that will change into a liquid when put
under pressure, or that will float on itself as a solid in liquid (
helpful for life off shore ).

Anyway should it be a predator (eyes in front) or prey (eyes on top
or side) If it's prey than it must either live with that fear, or
must be able to (or even to have already) overcome the threat.

If you have any ideas on what type of body, mind, fears, food, etc.
it should have either answer or e-mail, please.

PS I figure, that it can't fly, so that it will have to "invent" a
flying machine, so that it will think of how to build a spaceship
easier.

Joe Christensen
{cepui,ihnp4,uiucdcs}!bradley!bucc2!spock

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Apr 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #188
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #188
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 03:58:12 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

Stuart Friedberg writes:
>  It seems obvious to me, if not to the author of the essay, that
>one of the points Heinlein is making is *not* how great rational
>anarchy is, but rather how close to the edge *all* social
>organizations are.  That moral philosophy is great as far as it
>goes, and it doesn't go far enough to put bread on the table.  Look
>at the scene where Mannie is thrown in jail for showing his family
>portrait in Kentucky!  On the surface, Heinlein is showing how
>irrational those degenerate Earthies are.  However, while the
>prejudices of the Lunies are rationalized, and the prejudices of
>the Earthies are shown in bad light, they both have prejudices!  It
>is only because Heinlein made the irrationalities, moral
>compromises, and prejudices of his protagonists so apparent that
>the essayist is able to complain about the surface contradictions.

I think there is more to it than that.  I might agree with this
point were it not for two trends in Heinlein's work.  First of all,
there are vanishingly few Heinlein books I can name where there is
much of a semblance of a thin veneer of civilization to break down.
Au contraire: in most books it evident from early on that the world
is a rough-and-tumble sort of place where one must work at survival
without the expectation of cooperation from others.  And while one
may quibble with the political implications of this, there is a
certain mindset which joins them all.

I think that our fair reviewer has gotten things wrong, simply
because the common thread of the various books lies in another
place.  But the criticisms aren't totally out of place; the tension
which one would expect between self-reliance on the one hand and
cooperation on the other tends to get resolved in favor of
self-reliance and quite often the principal players accomplish this
by managing to be in command and making up the rules under which
cooperation will take place.  Whether this is good or bad is, of
course, a matter of one's outlook.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 12:22:27 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay

I just received the following letter in net mail, and since its
author said he would have loved to post it but his system won't
allow postings, I am posting it for him...

From: seismo!harvard!CC5.BBN.COM!sdenbest

I find that I disagree with every aspect of the article you
published, for the following reason. It makes the following
assumption:

IF a character is the protagonist of a story
AND IF that character is sympathetic
AND IF that character espouses a strong ideological opinion
THEN the character is a mouthpiece for the author, who also
     espouses that opinion.

Now, that is a dangerous assumption to make for any author, but for
no-one is it as dangerous as for Heinlein. His sympathetic
protagonists have advocated every governmental form from
constitutional monarchy (Double Star) to military martial law (Sixth
column), benevolent meritocracy (Glory Road), rule by unbridled
capitalists (The Man Who Sold The Moon), etc.

In the case of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, perhaps Heinlein is
deliberately setting up Prof Paz for a fall. Perhaps he doesn't
think that anarchy is such a good thing after all.

Or maybe, (dare we whisper it) he is just trying to tell a good
story and really isn't trying to preach at all - he has put those
ideologies into his characters simply because he is very good at
character development. Could it be that Heinlein is simply a good
author whose characters are not one-dimensional?

If this is the case, then your quoted criticism falls completely
down, because it criticizes the beliefs of the CHARACTERS, NOT the
AUTHOR!

I would have loved to have posted this sucker, but we don't seem to
be able to do that here.

  Steven Den Beste

I might as well take this time to comment:

It usually is dangerous to assume that a character is a spokesperson
for the author, and the essay posted does tread on thin ice here in
that respect. However, I don't think that the ice here is all *that*
thin, since, as the above posting points out (accidentally, I'm
sure} is that every time Heinlein has a character who exhibits a
strong ideological viewpoint and likes to preach about it, *that
character always advocates a rigid, elitist, intervening
government.*
  This is true even in TMIAHM, where the character *supposedly*
advocates anarchy, but is at *heart* a tyrannical elitist, as the
essay points out.  See, the Prof is most content when *he himself*
has maximal personal freedom, *regardless* of the amount of freedom
anyone *else* has.
  In TMIAHM, the Prof finds that the best way for *him* to get *his*
most freedom is to become a tyrannical dictator!

  Note: Heinlein openly supported the Vietnam War, advocating its
continuation!! This is one of the reasons I believe that the highly
conservative nature of his characters' ideological viewpoints is
*his very own* viewpoint. He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates
powerful government so that he can be one of the power elite.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 17:30:24 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay (*SPOILERS*)

MASSIVE SPOILERS:  I talk about many books.

I think before this discussion goes too far it would be well if we
looked at other books with similar themes that Heinlein has written.
Take a look at Farnam's Freehold: we see a man who bucks society to
be safe from nuclear war by building his own basement shelter.  The
book ends up with e and his wife running some sort of store in the
lawless aftermath (note the minefield in the front yard).  The
protagonists are apparently much happier at the end than at the
beginning.

Second case in point: Beyond this Horizon; a story about a
semi-lawless future society in which anyone may carry a weapon and
duel with others.  Those not carrying weapons are sort of
second-class citizens (i.e. the be-weaponed may push ahead of them
in line, etc.)  The protagonist is the prime member of the star
genetically-selected line.  He caries an antique Colt 45 (if I'm not
mistaken) and is polite but won't let anyone stand in his way if he
feels he's being wronged.

Third: Some of the alternate societies in The Number of the Beast (a
lousy book, Heinlein's first step into mediocrity).  One such
society had a holiday called "The Day They Lynched the Lawyers"
after beauracracy weighed things down too much.  If I remember
correctly this same society practiced "an eye for an eye and a tooth
for a tooth" for certain types of crimes (injuring someone while
driving drunk was the example given).  Heinlein also talked about
certain "saner" methods for enforcing certain laws (like appraisals
for property taxes).

Fourth: The novel Friday.  This book could probably be considered
the stereotypic Heinlein novel; all the usual elements are there (a
Heinlein hero, a libertarian paradise, open sexuality, . . .)  The
hero Friday is a cool and accomplished killer.  At the beginning of
the novel she kills a man by shear reaction (the man has not
attacked her or even appeared as if he were going to) and finds that
he is indeed an enemy agent.  The hero visits the country of
California and finds a rich, well-developed libertarian paradise.
The hero is aided by friends who own a personal
shelter/hide-away/fortress (a constantly recurring theme).

Fifth: All of the novels with Lazarus Long, a man who feels he is
above the law because he is older than it and knows he will outlive
it.  Lazarus Long frequenly owns his own space ship, does solitary
trading, settles down sometimes on frontier planets and leaves when
they get too bureaucratic (note move from Earth to Secundus and then
to Tertius).  Lazarus Long is THE classic Heinlein hero.  The people
he likes to associate with are the hard-working, freedom loving
type.  In The Cat Who Walks Through Walls a tourist to Tertius is
shot for cutting into a line.  (The shooter is tried on the spot by
the witnesses and the shooting is declared "Homicide in the Public
Interest".

Other interesting books with these same sorts of ideas are: The Door
Into Summer, Tunnel in the Sky, Stranger in a Strange Land, . . .
well, practically everything.

The Heinlein hero has a PhD, shoots straight (and always has a
weapon handy), and most of all, WON'T BE PUSHED.  He/she is a rugged
individualist who battles bureaucracy and organized insanity and
wins.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 17:17:32 GMT
From: rochester!kodak!sprankle@RUTGERS.EDU (Daniel R. Lance)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>It usually is dangerous to assume that a character is a
>spokesperson for the author, and the essay posted does tread on
>thin ice here in that respect. However, I don't think that the ice
>here is all *that* thin, since, as the above posting points out
>(accidentally, I'm sure} is that every time Heinlein has a
>character who exhibits a strong ideological viewpoint and likes to
>preach about it, *that character always advocates a rigid, elitist,
>intervening government.*

Never say never...also never say every...unless you have proof.  Two
of Heinlein's more recent novels -- *Friday* and *The Cat Who Walks
Through Walls* contain characters which are very much *against* a
rigid, elitist, intervening government (Friday and Colin
Campbell/Richard Ames/etc.)  I also remember a certain short story
which I *think* was in the anthology *The Menace From Earth* which
deals with a rigid theocratic United States and efforts of a group
of people to depose the government.  Heinlein's governments are
often rigid and bureaucratic, but his characters vary in their
reactions to it-- compare *Starship Troopers* with *Cat...*.  I
don't really see any evidence for your statement above; I think your
negative opinion of Heinlein's writings is affecting your judgement.

> This is true even in TMIAHM, where the character *supposedly*
>advocates anarchy, but is at *heart* a tyrannical elitist, as the
>essay points out.  See, the Prof is most content when *he himself*
>has maximal personal freedom, *regardless* of the amount of freedom
>anyone *else* has.
> In TMIAHM, the Prof finds that the best way for *him* to get *his*
>most freedom is to become a tyrannical dictator!

I won't comment on *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* (no abbreviations,
please, also no flames...) as I haven't read it lately.  Perhaps I
will...

>  Note: Heinlein openly supported the Vietnam War, advocating its
>continuation!!

Perhaps someone out there can confirm or deny this.

>This is one of the reasons I believe that the highly conservative
>nature of his characters' ideological viewpoints is *his very own*
>viewpoint. He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful
>government so that he can be one of the power elite.

I don't see this as being true at all.

Daniel R. Lance
sprankle@kodak.uucp
lanced@ei.ecn.purdue.edu
...{decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!lanced
...{harvard,seismo}!rochester!kodak!sprankle

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 14:31 EDT
From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Trapped in a Cage of his Own Design

Just at the moment I will refrain from a point by point demolition
of this critique of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", but I can easily
be provoked into generating one (or even by request, though that
seems unlikely).

This reminds me of flames past on the subject of "Farnham's
Freehold", or any of a number of other works by Heinlein.  All of
them seem to make the same assumption, and certain adherents defend
said (in my opinion) beyond-totally-bogus assumption vociferously
and with ad hominem attacks on those who point it out to them (but
all of us can play at that game).  Because famous SF critics (I
suppose Michael Moorcock qualifies, and perhaps others) are capable
of holding this position, does that make it somehow legitimate?

Throughout the essay, it appears that the critic seems convinced
that Heinlein in particular (and authors in general?)  always place
their actual opinions in the mouths of their protagonists.  If the
protagonist makes a mistake and learns from it, then the character
must be contradicting him(?)self, and if the character has a point
of view which might charitably be called refreshing (or more
accurately, jarring), then the author must be warped for holding the
views that his character stands for.

I find the characterization of Manuel Garcia O'Kelly Davis to be a
reasonable rationalization of behaviors which are actually observed.
You wouldn't expect the autobiography of one of these characters to
be told from the usual point of view of the writers of history;
that's the point.  I found Hugh Farnham depressingly true-to-life.

I know, from experience in both writing and reading, that
misinterpretation is possible, so that apparent conflicts can arise
when trying to explain values.  Two values which conflict can easily
exist in one mind; life is a tightrope walk balancing conflicting
goals.  When each is stated in its own context, the conflicts are
readily apparent, yet there is additional unarticulated information
which tells you how the character or person would choose to resolve
the conflict between the goals.  Are there readers out there who
never have such complexities in their own lives?

The critics (whom I wish to criticize) seem uniformly impressed with
themselves that they are the only ones who can read "between the
lines" and see the hidden flaws that the characters don't seem to
notice.  They are mystified, even stunned, that so many people could
*like* this piece of trash whose author was so stupid he didn't even
see the flaws he put in his own work.  Hubris, anyone?

Perhaps I am being overly charitable, or even misguided, in being
very impressed with Heinlein and certain other authors who can write
on this level.  I often disagree with the views which Heinlein's
characters hold.  I don't often disagree with what I perceive as the
message the author puts there.  There are real values in this man's
work, not the least of which is that reading his books usually
provokes the reader to think.  These straw men are placed there for
us to react to, not for us to be brainwashed by.

I am tempted to suppose that these critics are self-satirizing, by
way of underlining the point that they are afraid that some of us
didn't get.  This seems reasonable since any form of author-worship
such as they accuse us (people like me) of is dangerous; it is a
mistake to respect the authority rather than the ideas lest you
accept a bogus one on the strength of the (apparently?)  good ones
that came before.  Nevertheless, I find their attacks on the author
rude, and excessive for the purpose I ascribe.

Perhaps it could better be stated that the necessity of putting up
with rudeness is one of the prices we pay for what we understand as
freedom; sometimes it seems (but really isn't so) that this price is
too high.  I haven't spoken with Mr.  Moorcock on this subject, but
I am willing to interpret his words as this sort of cautionary tale;
some of the supporting cast of network flamers, however, don't seem
to be *intentionally* satirizing themselves.

Since the views which I perceive in this work are often implied
rather than actually stated, I suppose in some sense I am agreeing
with myself.  After all, I don't *know*, by direct interview or
mind-reading, that RAH actually intended for me to get the message I
got.  However, I am not a pan-universal solipsist.  Wrong, I may be.
Counterflames, anyone?

My apologies for typos; I'm not using a screen editor and don't have
time to really tune this response.

Spencer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Apr 87 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #189
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 87 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #189
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Good Sf Movies (3 msgs) &
                         La Jetee & Title Request Answer &
                         A Voyage to Arcturus &
                         Between Time and Timbuktu
                         Silent Running (2 msgs) &
                         Time after Time
                         Worst SF Movies (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1987 12:08:12 PDT
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>

Only saw one person recommend my favorite animated flick; WIZARDS.
This was reportedly done by Ralph Bakshi as a warmup before he
butchered _The Fellowship of the Ring_.  WIZARDS was scary, cute,
incredibly VISUAL.  I absolutely loved the climax, where the good
guy beats the bad guy through a cynical use of his own dirty
tricks...  no goody-goody moralisim here.  Oh, this was thousands of
years post-holocaust, which meant the animators had great fun with
mutants.  I used to see this annually on campus, but having left
that world years ago, its harder to find.

Someone else bemoaned the lack of "seriousness" in the film, DAY OF
THE COMET.  I sorta thought it was intended as a spoof...

(Sorry not to include original poster's quotes, the net is backed
up today and I don't want to edit the digest to find them again...)

Doug (dolson @ Ada20.isi.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 12:24:09 PDT (Tuesday)
From: PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: 'Man Who Fell to Earth' is Good????

>>     I would also add "The Man Who Fell to Earth" as another
>>excellent science-fiction movie.  David Bowie is great in it.
>
>I saw _The Man Who Fell to Earth_ about a year ago. I did not enjoy
>it at all. It just dragged on and on and nothing happened. Or if
>something did happen, the viewer was totally lost as to what it
>was.
>  Also, Bowie neither added nor subtracted anything from the film.

I also agree, when someone said "The Man Who Fell to Earth" was an
excellent movie, sci fi or otherwise, I almost fell off my chair.  I
had heard this was a good film so I went to a midnight showing about
a year ago.  Well maybe it was because it was 2:00 a.m., although
that's never stopped me from having a good time before, but I thought
it was really bad.

Anyone in the San Jose, California area know where there is a good
video rental store that has these old classics?

I'm not saying this was a great movie, but how about the remake of
'Invasion from Mars', I thought this was a real hoot!  Believe it or
not, I liked it.  Mizz Ratchet was at her best!!!  I've never seen
the original, is this rentable?

Favorites I could watch anytime have mostly been covered, Forbidden
Planet, Day the Earth Stood Still, Day of the Triffids, Earth vs the
Flying Saucers, Beast from 20,000 fathoms, 20 million Miles to
Earth, It came from Beneath the Sea (I'm a Harryhausen nut!), and
thanks to whoever mentioned 'Them', a really great creature feature.
The remake of the story 'Who Goes there?' was excellent, just can't
think of the film.  The original wasn't too bad either.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: MONDAY 04/27/87 11:54:05 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>
Subject: Re: GOOD SF Movies

At the risk of being terminally obnoxious, I have to say that the
people who recommended 'Terminator' and 'Buckeroo Banzai' as GOOD Sf
movies must be using a far, far different definition for the word
'good' than I am used to!!  'BB' is more of a camp cult film than a
SF movie; 'Rocky Horror' has SF aspects, but I wouldn't put it on a
list of 'Good SF Movies'.

A lot of my favorites have already been mentioned, but here are some
more:

'Runaway' -- All the man's electronic wizardry starts to turn against
     him; we find out that Gene Simmons (Yes, the singer from KISS)
     and Tom Selleck really *can* act.  I'm *not* saying this movie
     is perfect; there are some interesting ideas in it, however.

'Battle Beyond The Stars' -- Even leaving Sybil Danning in skimpy
     costumes out of it, I thought this movie was interesting,
     simply because it doesn't glorify war as so many movies do.
     The peaceful Akira pay a heavy price defending their planet....
     Main characters die, in this film.

'Flash Gordon' -- If you take this as a monumental put-on, it's great
     fun!!  My favorite character in the whole movie is Vultan --
     lines like 'Impetuous boy!!.... Oh well, who wants to live
     forever??'  make it great fun to watch.

'Flesh Gordon' -- Yes, this IS an X-rated film; if you want to see it,
     be sure to get the original uncut version, as the 'R-ified'
     version is next to impossible to follow.  Same caveats as for
     the version just previous, but throw in a good deal of
     tolerance for gratuitous sex.  Funny if you are in the right
     mood, and there IS some excellent model work and animation in
     the film.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 13:44:46 EST
From: David Watson <harvard!talcott!ci-dandelion!david@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: La Jetee

> There is/was an short atmospheric black-and-white film which was
> set in Paris, about a man who was so obsessed with one childhood
> event that he could be forced to travel in time... It is also a
> post-'holocaust' story.
>
> Two questions -
>  1. What was the title?
>  2. Was it based on a story?

I can only answer #1:

This was the short film "La Jetee" by Chris Marker.  It's one of my
favorite movies, period.  A supremely effective technique used by
Marker was that, except for a single poignant moment, the story was
told in photographic stills, a device which reinforced the feeling
that the film was somehow really a documentary of future events.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 04:00:55 GMT
From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Title Request

> I also have a question. Does Anyone remember the following plot.
> " Due to two tests with Nuclear Weapons (One US and one USSR)
> Earth leaves it's orbit and 'sets the controls for the heart of
> the sun'. It's kind of a hot :-) story."
>
> It's, I think, a British Movie, or at Least the place of action is
> London.

I think this movie is called "The Day the Earth Caught Fire".

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 19:15:16 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS (film)

From:   uwmacc!oyster

>    And if you hated the book, try watching the movie some time.
> It qualifies as the *only* movie I've ever walked out on, and I
> even sat through Def-Con 4.  I think I was one of the last to
> leave, though, if that counts for anything.

Quite frankly, I thought you were out of your mind. While not as
knowledgeable as Mark Leeper in matters cinematic, I had never heard
of a film version of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, and it's not listed in
Phil Hardy's THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION. Son of a b**ch,
though, if it isn't listed in Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO
FANTASTIC FILMS as being an amateur film made in 1971! You learn
something new every day.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 15:25 EDT
From: <RMALOUF%SBCCMAIL.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Between Time and Timbuktu

Another good SF (ish) movie was _Between Time and Timbuktu_.  Is was
a collection of fairly nightmarish visits to future societies, with
some humorous parodies of network news coverage of space shots
interwoven.  It also had a great quote about the importance of man
in the universe (but I wouldn't want to ruin the whole movie . . .)
I think it was written by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

Rob Malouf
Marine Sciences Research Center
State University of New York
Stony Brook, NY  11794-5000
RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 17:50:32 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Question about _Silent Running_

ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (ROBERT LEONE) writes:
>This material can be looked up in many standard movie guides.  You
>might also try the movie rental catalogs at your campus events
>office for this information.  I just happen to know off the top of
>my head that one of the three scriptwriters was Michael (Mike)
>Cimino, who later went into directoral history with the $70 million
>box office disaster Heaven's Gate.  Silent Running starred Bruce
>Dern, had two Joan Baez songs in the soundtrack, and the overall
>incidental music was done by classical music comedian Peter
>Shickele, the madman responsible (for being) "P.D.Q. Bach."  Robert
>the Unix Rookie.

Another of the writers was Steven (HSB) Bochco.  The two Joan Baez
songs were "Rejoice in the Sun" and "silent Running"

Like Robert said, look it up.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
(..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker)

------------------------------

Date: TUESDAY 04/28/87 17:28:31 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>
Subject: Re: Silent Running

Mike MacLeod writes:
> I see here and there Silent Running named as a good SF movie.
>
> Now, I can stand hearing ships whoosh through soundless vacuum, and
> Close Encounter - E.T. aliens that are so evolutionarily unfit that
> they'd never make it out of the gate.  But when the plot
> complication in the movie ("The plants are dying 'cause there's not
> enough >sunlight<!")  is a mystery to the botanist in charge of
> them, that's absurd.

As I recall, NONE of the men on the Valley Forge were botanists;
they were just interplanetary truckers hired to drive the plants
around the solar system until the (projected) refoliation of the
Earth, which of course didn't happen; Bruce Dern's character simply
fell in love with the plants and didn't want them destroyed.

George Madison

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 19:28:18 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Time after Time

One of my favorite movies of all time (no pun intended) is "Time
After Time," in which Jack the Ripper and H.G. Wells use the Time
Machine to travel forward into the 20th century. The movie was
directed (and written?) by Nicholas Meyer, who also directed "The
Wrath of Khan" and "The Day After."

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 87  00:41:49 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: On a lighter note...

  Aw, *everybody* has a big list of their favorite SF movies. Never
mind that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! The dogs on
the Late Late Show that curdle milk, make the cat's fur fall out,
and drive your long-suffering mate to drink. Some personal
"favorites:"

  Plan 9 From Outer Space    Can never be equalled.
  Battle Beyond The Stars    Came mighty close though, with Richard
   Thomas.
  Galaxy of Terror           When the best part of the movie is
   seeing Erin Moran's head blow up, you KNOW you're in trouble.
  Galaxina                   Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
  Zardoz                     DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

  And so on. Granted, there are enough bad SF&F movies out there to
gag a rhino, but I'm sure that every movie fan has some that linger
in his or her memory in the same way that a pebble lingers in his
shoe...Send *yours* in!

RG Traynor
UMass-Boston

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 08:57:39 GMT
From: amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue)
Subject: Re: On a lighter note...

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! The dogs on the
>Late
>  Zardoz                      DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

now now, Zardoz has two things going for it: an unspeakably bitter
cynicism, and a mostly undressed Sean Connery. Why do you think it
is so bad? I happen to like it...

amq

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 14:32:25 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: On a lighter note...

amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue) writes:
>Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>>that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time!
>>  Zardoz       DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
>now now, Zardoz has two things going for it: an unspeakably bitter
>cynicism, and a mostly undressed Sean Connery. Why do you think it
>is so bad? I happen to like it...

I rather liked Zardoz when I saw it.  Not for any
GreatLiteraryValue, but just because it was so strange.  One just
has to laugh when all these people in
                     ***MINOR SPOILER ALERT***

the vortexes are going around saying "Kill us!  Kill us next!  We
want to die, too!"  Or how about the apathetics?  They're like
something out of a Douglas Adams book.  "Go ahead, brute."

ins_bjjb@jhunix.BITNET picked out _Zardoz_ one time when we wanted
to see a film, so you can blame him for contaminating me with it :-)

On the serious side (if there really is one), it is an interesting
story about what might happen if people really got what they want,
immortality in a sensible universe.  (Do I hear echoes of "Mr.
Spock, these people aren't living; they're existing." ?)  from
_Zardoz_: "The penis is evil.  It shoots seed to create new life.
The gun is good."

Matthew Belmonte
Internet:  <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 12:34 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: *Good*(ish) Sf movies

Has anyone seen the movie _Zardoz_?  It was a post holocaust movie,
with Sean Connery.  I understand it was one of the more obscure
movies, but I enjoyed it.  I was just wondering if anyone else had
seen it and whether or not they liked it.

Keith Anderson
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 19:15:47 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess
From: partner) )
Subject: Zardoz (Spoilers)

All right, I'm getting a little tired of people ragging on one of my
favorite movies: Zardoz.  If you're going to say, "Boy, that was a
stinker!", how about providing some supporting evidence other than
"*Everyone* thinks so!"

I don't think the film promotes rape or brutality or macho behavior.
Those actions are shown in the film for what they are; they are not
glamorized.  But they were necessary in the context of the film.

I like Zardoz for the following reasons:

1) Style.  It's as stylish as any other Boorman film I've seen
   (admittedly, I haven't seen Exorcist II :-)), many of which have
   received acclaim (e.g., Deliverance, Excalibur) for their style.
   You get scenes like Zed rising from the grain, the encounters in
   the Tabernacle, the flashbacks to the people's faces pressed
   against the barrier or Zed in the library...  And, oh, that moody
   2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th running through the film!

2) Theme.  Zed learns from the Eternals, and the Eternals learn from
   Zed.  Eternal manipulation of the Brutals is ended, and the
   promise of a "better tomorrow" is exemplified by Zed and
   (Charlotte Rampling)'s ("Carmella"?) child.  A highly stratified
   world is forced into interaction between the "classes" (yes, the
   Eternals are all killed, but their knowledge is no longer being
   withheld from the Brutals.  And without Arthur Frayn to provide
   ammunition, the Brutals' guns aren't going to permit them to rule
   unchallenged).

3) Humor.  Boorman doesn't take himself completely seriously.  He's
   telling a story of wild exaggerations, a fable, and he doesn't
   try to hide it.  Friend's refusing to go to Second Level.  "*Old*
   friend."  Zed pulling the cart.  The Wizard of Oz!

It's a great, cinematic comic book.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!rutgers!elbereth!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Apr 87 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #190
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 87 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #190
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 190

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 Apr 87 17:49:39-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: more on Universal Translators

I would like to add more to the discussion of universal translators
in general, and and ST4 in particular.  In response:

From: Mike Garcia <MTG%CORNELLC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I don't think that there needs to be any problem with the Universal
>Translator not working with the Probe in Star Trek IV.
>Conceptionally the machine would require feedback to allow it to
>learn the language it is trying to communicate in.  Perhaps the
>Probe, which was sent to communicate with whales in the Earth's
>oceans was not interested in (programmed to?) teaching space- or
>land-creatures to speak whaleish.

I'll buy this.  I actually never stopped to consider, in my first
posing of the question, that the probe was `dumb', i.e. was
programmed only to respond to a certain sequence, and lacked any
interpretative capabilities.  In essence, it was looking for a
`password', i.e. "give me the password or I'll vaporize your planet.

Peter Webb adds:
>From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
>>In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their magic
>>universal translator to interpret the probe's probing?
>I saw Leonard Nimoy speak at MIT on Tue, Mar 17, .....  ....He
>wanted to make a point about the mystery of the universe, and the
>unlikelyhood that we, as a race, will ever be able to understand
>all of it.  It is only arrogance, Nimoy claimed, to believe that
>the concepts upon which the probe's language is based have any
>analogue in human society.  In other words, there is more that just
>the language barrier to consider when trying to translate an alien
>language; a common set of semantic devices (by which I mean
>concepts that carry meaning) must exist as well.

This is *exactly* my contention.  Consider just the `simple' task of
translating numbers.  It's pretty easy within human languages.  Many
`primitive' cultures use 1,2,(3),many; all others use a base ten
system.  What if the six-toed sloth had evolved a higher
intelligence?  Could we assume they'd use a base 12?  When
approaching an alien language, should we instruct the UT on the
number of toes the aliens have?  Should we count teeth?  Tentacles?
Warts?  Anyway, we can safely assume that the ancient Babylonians
did not have 60 fingers, or even sixty fingers and toes; yet they
used a base 60.

Or what if the aliens used sign language?  I suppose you could hook
up the tricorder somehow to handle that possibility.  What if they
used ESP?  Or any combination of spoken, signed or telepathic
communication?  How would the UT know if the aliens were
communicating or just whistling a merry tune?  The possibilities are
endless, but I won't go on...

The simple explanation for the existence of a UT in Star Trek is
that it was as cheap a plot device as the transporter.  Could you
imagine every show starting: "Captains Log, stardate 666.666.  We
landed on planet Boogdy-boog.  Nine months have passed as the
linguistics team still struggles to......."  The five year mission
would be over in about 4 1/2 episodes.  My personal opinion is that
a UT is plausible for languages that have *already* been studied, at
least somewhat, so that it might be programmable in perhaps the
minimal sense of setting parameters, semantic or otherwise.
Besides, who on earth wants to read subtitles off a TV screen when
the Aliens are speaking??

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 16:38:32 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!cvedc!mpease@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Pease)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>Special effects for Star Trek:The Next Generation will be done by
>Industrial Light and Magic (ILM to you initial-lovin folks).  The
>report comes from today's USA Today (4/21).  This will be ILM's
>first television series work.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ILM did the SX for Battle Star
Galactica.  I think there was an article in National Geo. about ILM
and they talked about how hard it was to make *stars* show up on the
tube.

Mark Pease
Computervision
14952 N.W. Greenbrier Pkway
Beavertion, Oregon 97006
(503)645-2410
..tektronix.csnet!ogcvax.uucp!cvedc!mpease
..sun.arpa!cvbnet.uucp!cvedc!mpease

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 18:01:00 GMT
From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

mpease@dewey.UUCP (Mark Pease) writes:
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ILM did the SX for Battle
>Star Galactica.

I think the usual acronym for this is FX. (No, I am not trying to
start/extend a discussion on acronyms.)

I have no factual evidence to provide for you, but I really don't
think that ILM was involved with that show.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 19:03:39 GMT
From: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu (Elliott Buchholz)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

mpease@dewey.UUCP (Mark Pease) writes:
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ILM did the SX for Battle
>Star Galactica.  I think there was an article in National Geo.
>about ILM and they talked about how hard it was to make *stars*
>show up on the tube.

Hmmm. I don't think so.  In the book, "The Official Battlestar
Galactica Scrapbook", they credit John Dykstra (of Star Wars fame)
and associates.  He also talks about the problems with the stars and
the ships.

Elliott Buchholz
ARPA:  buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!topaz!buchholz
Bitnet: buchholz@zodiac.bitnet
(201)-247-6544
201 Joyce Kilmer Ave
New Brunswick, NJ  08901

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 13:52:34 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation

When I saw the following (abstracted) new crew list

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>SEEKING THE FOLLOWING SERIES REGULARS:
>
>CAPT. JULIAN PICARD -- A caucasian man in his 50's....
>     .... a 'romantic' ... honor and duty.... mid-Atlantic accent
>
>NUMBER ONE (AKA WILLIAM RYKER) -- A 30-35 year old caucasian
>
>LT. COMMANDER DATA -- android ... exotic features
>     ... perfect physical condition ... very intelligent.
>LT. TANYA YAR -- 26 year old woman of Ukranian decent
>     ... security chief.
>     ... has an almost obsessive devotion to protecting the ship ...
>LT. DEANNA TROI -- An alien woman... 30 years old and quite beautiful
>     serves as the starship's Chief Psychologist....
>     She and Number One are romantically involved.

I was reminded of another TV series where the commander of a space
craft is a male fitting the above description, romantically involved
with the female medical officer/Psycologist, There is a resident
alien female wandering about solving all the problems. (OK so there
is a sex change...). The officers on the "bridge" also fit the above
descriptions fairly well.

That programme was "SPACE 1999". I began to get bad feelings.

And then I saw

>WESLEY CRUSHER -- .. appealing 15 year old caucasian boy
>     .. remarkable mind and photographic memory ..
>     .. acting-ensign.  ... normal teenager.
>
and
>BEVERLY CRUSHER -- Wesley's 35 year old mother.
>
and
>LT. GEORDI LaFORGE -- a 20-25 year old black man, blind from birth.
>     ... Should also be able to do comedy well.

and I knew my initial feelings were correct. This series, based on
the above cast line up, is going to be one of the most monumental
flops ever seen on TV.

I hope I am wrong, but... any show relying on "cute" kids with
"remarkable" minds helping to run a ship full of stereotypes is
going to sink without trace. Or even worse, develop into the new
A-TEAM.

Bob Gray
ERCC

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 15:45:13 GMT
From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

> I'm new to the system, and don'y know if this has been said
> before, but here goes.  I read in todays paper (USA today), that
> in the new series, and I quote, " ... the humans have made peace
> with the Klingons, who'll be part of the crew ..."

It is well known that Klingons assassinate their superiors to get
their promotions, so I'm not so sure it is a good idea to have them
on a Starship.  Should be entertaining though.

By the way what happened to the Romulans?  Did the Feds and the
Klingons gang up to destroy them?  Somehow I don't think this is
likely, the Romulans being such an intelligent enemy.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 17:43:44 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

"Did the Feds and the Klingons gang up to destroy [the Romulans]?"
Sigh.  To me, the news that the Federation and the Klingons are at
peace is wonderful.  As for the Romulans, surely Federation policy
is to make peace with its neighbors, not to commit genocide.

Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 17:57:45 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: ST:TNG - responses to basic information

Okay, about a week ago, I posted (with much help) a rundown on Star
Trek: The Next Generation (STTNG).

Since then I've seen several (even before then I saw some) which
look at a four line character description and say "This is a stupid
character, this series is going to stink, what a flop, it's just
like <fill in name of least favorite sf tv series> and we ALL know
how bad that is."

C'mon folks, the success or failure, both in quality and ratings of
any television series is a combination of factors.  These include
(but are not limited to): The original concept, how it is
implemented on a day to day basis by story editors, directors,
producers, etc., The actors, The WRITERS, time period it's shown
(yes this can impact quality), modification once several episodes
are "in the can"...

There's a story related in The Making of Star Trek (TMOST) in which
the tv critics are brought on the set for the first time after
getting a big speech about how the show was aimed at adults to find
this pointed eared guy dripping green blood and saying "Captain, the
monster attacked me!" (from The Man Trap).

I can just see the reaction of netters to the third hand account of
that scene!

By the way, one of the reasons I didn't post all this information in
the past (the STTNG stuff) is that I was specifically asked not to
by people in the Star Trek offices.  Their reason (a valid one I
think) is that while things are developing and changing, they don't
want to have to deal with namecalling based on incomplete
information that may already be out of date.  It was only after
David Gerrold revealed most if not all of what was in the posting in
Starlog, that I felt the request was moot.  Please don't prove me
wrong.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 19:42:33 GMT
From: dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune)
Subject: Startrek Loose End

I have just seen Star Trek IV, TVH, having no idea what it would
bring.  (It arrived here, that is in Holland, only last week, and we
don't get rec.arts.startrek either, sigh!)  Of course I love the
movie, and I've read the book in the meantime (the book had been
available here for a couple of months, no, no praise for
self-restraint, just the usual academic overload), but it does not
solve one Major Loose End left over from ST II & III.

Dr. Carol Marcus may still be on Delta, mourning, but she is the
only one left who has technical information on project Genesis.  She
may not have the complete blueprints, but definitely knows and
understands enough to be very interesting for any person wishing to
duplicate the research and to be in constant danger!  Now here's a
Damsel in Distress, if there ever was one, dragons all around,
ranging from local dictators who dislike the tentacle colour of the
people on the next planet to benevolent civilized societies, who
will never use the device, but want in anyway, just in case; and
who's going to rescue her?  He'll not only have to rescue her, but
also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back into the
box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option).  And not through
time travel I hope.

Dick Grune
Vrije Universiteit
de Boelelaan 1081
1081 HV  Amsterdam
the Netherlands
dick@cs.vu.nl
...!mcvax!vu44!dick

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 20:08:33 GMT
From: seismo!yale!sshefter@RUTGERS.EDU (Bret A. Shefter)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Special Effects

ping@uthub.UUCP writes:
>By the way what happened to the Romulans?  Did the Feds and the
>Klingons gang up to destroy them?  Somehow I don't think this is
>likely, the Romulans being such an intelligent enemy.

    I assume that they are going to leave Romulans out of the new
series en- tirely, so that the movies can play around with them if
they wish. I heard they were going to do the same for Klingons, but
that idea seems to have gone by the wayside. On the other hand, we
already knew that the Federation and the Klingon Empire were going
to ally at some point...

shefter-bret@yale.ARPA
shefter@yalecs.BITNET
...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter
...!{seismo,decvax}!yale!shefter

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 18:16:28 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: STIV : TVH

   I have only just seen STIV, so I may be a bit late too enter the
Great Translator Debate. However, I have a couple of other points.
First, in STIII, the Klingon Bird of Prey had to deactivate its
cloak in order to beam Kruge up from the Genesis planet, which is
when Chekov first saw it. In STIV, the new owners not only learned
how to operate Klingon machinery, they learned to do it better than
the Klingons, as people were beamed in and out of the fully cloaked
Bird of Prey! Besides, in the book of STIII at least, the cloaking
device was *destroyed*, not merely damaged. Secondly, I assume
no-one tried playing football or anything else in the park where the
ship landed!
   Incidentally, has anyone considered the possibility of Kirk and
co. going back to the "latter half of the 20th century" and giving
Gene Roddenberry some genuine technical assistance?

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 16:13:24 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: GOOD sf

ping@uthub.UUCP writes:
> From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>>     No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR.  I thougt it was one of
>> the best SF movies of this decade...  Also I would include ST II,
>> and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV).
>
>FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie.  I thought ST II was a
>great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real
>Star Trek spirit.

   I beg to differ.  ST-TMP may have had the best SCIENCE FICTION of
all the ST movies, but as a cinematic production, it leaves MUCH to
be desired.  The plotting is loose to non-existant(sp).  The special
effects are ovedone (We can blame Star Wars for htis).  And it is
the most BORING of the four.
   I admit that the other movies aren't as thought provoking as
ST-TMP, but the 'message' of ST-TMP gets lost in the yawns.

T. Kogoma
cs2633ba@izar.UUCP
cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Apr 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #191
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #191
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Apr 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous - Single Terrain Planets (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 87 23:13:54 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: In case they do make SW-I (Get a Real Planet!)

castell@UMass.BITNET writes:
> As a matter of fact, multi-terrain planets like this one are
> probably the exception rather than the rule.

I think I'll differ, or maybe I'll agree.  Depends.  Any habitable
planet ought to have oceans.  There should be desert land areas on
these planets.  I don't see any reason to believe in a planet that
is all desert, or all forest.  All ocean may also be unlikely.
However, it seems likely that there will be life-supporting planets
that have more of one type of climate than Earth--such worlds would
tend to be simplified to be desert-worlds, forest worlds, etc.

For instance, if a planet had, say, one third of its surface covered
with water, and fairly large continents, it ought to have large
areas of desert.  Such a planet may well be called a desert planet.
Note that the planet would have oceans, and beaches, and forests
(and maybe ice caps).  It would still likely be called a desert
planet.  I'm not sure where you would put the spaceport,
though--near the ocean where the people are, or in the desert where
land is cheap.

A couple of thousand of years ago, the Earth would have done a good
imitation of a forest planet--it had oceans, ice caps, deserts,
mountains, and such, but a good part of its surface was covered with
trees.  It shouldn't be hard to imagine a similar planet with a
slightly thicker atmosphere, so that none of the terrain is above
timberline.  This hypothetical planet may also be missing the ice
caps, so nearly all the land surface could be covered with trees.
There would almost certainly be plains and deserts, but a larger
than normal portion would be covered with trees, and the planet
would be called a forest planet.

Oh well.  Enough of that.  You can do the bit of adding more water,
or making it colder or hotter or whatever.  Anyway, the point was
that planets are big, and saying the entire planet looks like a
little area is silly, and it would be nice if they would use a
little variety when visiting planets.  I agree.  It might be nice to
go to a resort town on Tatoine.  However, that might confuse the
movie-going public, unless you had some rather clumsy explanatory
dialog:

   Princess:  Where are we going NOW (whine)??
   Fluke:  (patiently) The resorts of Tattoine.
   P:  The resorts of Tattoine?  Ugg!  Tattoine is a desert planet.
   F:  Look airhead, a planet isn't like one of your imperial parks--
a planet, any planet is big, and has got some variety to it.
Calling Tattoine a desert planet is like calling a Vargan Slime Bat
delicate because it has such dainty pink toenails.

Oh well. you get the idea.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 87 23:05:44 GMT
From: seismo!sdcsvax!sdsu!polyslo!cquenel@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher
From: Quenelle)
Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets

Hmmm, I don't have these movies memorized, but when we hear a planet
called "The Ice Planet Groomendal" or whatever, do they explicitly
say

"This planet is covered 100.01% with ice."

Are we supposed to assume this ?

    Or only assume that the planet is /for the most part/ ice, and
the action we see takes place in those areas ?

I fully understand the Flash Gorden syndrome with the Mud-Men, the
air-men the grass-men the swamp-men and on and on and on and on.

Actually I think any more SW movies could leave out these references
to "The <terrain> world of <blah>" even if they did want the action
to take place in a single terrain.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 87 21:00:38 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets

Christopher Quenelle writes:
> "This planet is covered 100.01% with ice."
>
> Are we supposed to assume this ?
>
>     Or only assume that the planet is /for the most part/ ice,
> and the action we see takes place in those areas ?

Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world has
an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly below
freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause clouds to
form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet will be
subject to snow.

The earth, itself, could be a forest world. It would take a bit of
terraforming. First of all, we'd have to tilt the axis so it is
perpendicular to the orbit. This will prevent extreme cold at the
poles. Secondly, we'd have to break up some of the larger continents
so we don't have landlocked areas like the Gobi or Sahara. We'd also
have to let the planet age so that new mountains are not being
formed, and old ones are eroded down. Of course, the earth was once
an ocean or desert world. All life was in the ocean, and nothing
but desert (i.e.  rock but no life, regardless of rainfall), for
landform.

Come to think of it, even in our own solar system, we have several
one terrain worlds. Our moon is certainly desert. Ganemeyde (sp?) is
an "ice world" (although not water ice). Jupiter is an ocean world
(according to some theories, it's a solid core covered by liquid
Helium (or is that Hydrogen), sourrounded by a very turbulent
athmosphere).  Titan is a swamp world (it is allegedly covered with
a tar-pit like slurry of organic molecules). And, of course, there's
the exotic landscape of Io (at least I can spell that one right). In
fact, when you look at the solar system, earth's varied topography
is the exception!

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma, Wa 98499
(206)-581-1322
{hplsla|fluke|uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 03:42:26 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets

flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes:
>Christopher Quenelle writes:
>> "This planet is covered 100.01% with ice."
>>
>> Are we supposed to assume this ?
>>
>>     Or only assume that the planet is /for the most part/ ice,
>> and the action we see takes place in those areas ?

The planet *has* to be that way, although I may argue with the word
"most".  The planet had a breathable atmosphere and an ice covered
planet will not produce that.  As far as we know, only life will
produce free oxygen in quantities necessary for animal life.
Therefore, there must be other areas on the planet in which plants
or some other oxygen producing life forms predominate.

>Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world
>has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly below
>freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause clouds to
>form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet will be
>subject to snow.

There are a number of worlds like this in the outer solar system.
In fact, some of them are mostly ice all the way through.
Sublimation occurs slowly on these planets because of their low
temperatures and they are generally so small that most of what
sumblimates escapes the planet.

>The earth, itself, could be a forest world. [ideas on dendroforming
>Earth deleted]

You seem to forget that the majority of the surface of the Earth
will still be water.

> Of course, the earth was once an ocean or desert world. All life
>was in the ocean, and nothing but desert (i.e.  rock but no life,
>regardless of rainfall), for landform.

What is your definition of "desert"?  No life (as above) or no water
(as below)?  In either case, almost all planets in the solar system
can be called "desert".  However, neither of these two definitions
describes a terrain.

>Come to think of it, even in our own solar system, we have several
>one terrain worlds. Our moon is certainly desert. Ganemeyde (sp?)
>is an "ice world" (although not water ice).

The ice on Ganymede is mostly water ice but has other ices mixed in

>Jupiter is an ocean world (according to some theories, it's a solid
>core covered by liquid Helium (or is that Hydrogen), sourrounded by
>a very turbulent athmosphere).

There are several theories of the internals of Jupiter.  Many of
them have metallic hydrogen surrounding a rocky core.  I do not
consider Jupiter as having a terrain as we know it.

>Titan is a swamp world (it is allegedly covered with a tar-pit like
>slurry of organic molecules). And, of course, there's the exotic
>landscape of Io (at least I can spell that one right). In fact,
>when you look at the solar system, earth's varied topography is the
>exception!

In a previous posting (which may not have made it off this site) I
came to the exact opposite conclusion.  I think your problem is that
you don't have a clear picture of what you mean by terrain.  For
example, the Moon (which you blithely labelled a desert planet) has
at least two major types of terrains: mountainous and maria
(plains).  The fact that neither has water is beside the point.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 21:31:43 GMT
From: seismo!sdcsvax!celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim )
Subject: Star Wars influences and planets

What I like best about Star Wars is the way it imitates and reflects
so many previous works.  I find it strange that the tone of the
discussion seems to be derogatory, as if this imitation was a fault.
I like the discussion because being aware of these influences
increases my enjoyment of the films.

One aspect of the imitation is the "single terrain" planets and the
phrasing "The xxxx planet yyyy".  To me this is a reflection of the
influence of "pulp SF" and "Saturday Matinee Serials".  If Star Wars
were an attempt to present an accurate universe and realistic
planets rather than a quality reflection of 1930's serials it
wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>What *I* have always wanted to find in Star Wars was something
>original.

What`s original about Star Wars is the way all these influences have
been lovingly, and carefully combined in a quality manner.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 00:41:17 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets

flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) wrote:
>Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world
>has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly below
>freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause clouds to
>form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet will be
>subject to snow.

Where did the water come from?  Where did the atmosphere come from?

>The earth, itself, could be a forest world. It would take a bit of
>terraforming. First of all, we'd have to tilt the axis so it is
>perpendicular to the orbit. This will prevent extreme cold at the
>poles. Secondly, we'd have to break up some of the larger
>continents so we don't have landlocked areas like the Gobi or
>Sahara. We'd also have to let the planet age so that new mountains
>are not being formed, and old ones are eroded down.

You sure talk big.  Your plan might sound reasonable to someone who
knows nothing about planetary ecology, but to me it sounds like
idiocy.  How much of the biosphere will survive 6-month arctic
nights alternating with six-month tropical days?  Certainly not
forests.  And how do you plan to keep new mountains from being
formed, and new continents from being created?

>Come to think of it, even in our own solar system, we have several
>one terrain worlds. Our moon is certainly desert. Ganemeyde (sp?)
>is an "ice world" (although not water ice). Jupiter is an ocean
>world (according to some theories, it's a solid core covered by
>liquid Helium (or is that Hydrogen), sourrounded by a very
>turbulent athmosphere).  Titan is a swamp world (it is allegedly
>covered with a tar-pit like slurry of organic molecules). And, of
>course, there's the exotic landscape of Io (at least I can spell
>that one right). In fact, when you look at the solar system,
>earth's varied topography is the exception!

Gee, you sure know a whole hell of a lot about the solar system,
considering that you've only seen a small portion of one planet.
Did it ever occur to you that just maybe the Voyager pictures don't
show enough detail to make such general statements?  If Voyager took
pictures of Earth at the same resolution, you'd probably say "All
ocean and clouds, yup, another single-terrain planet, yup".  Give to
me a break.

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 87 19:13:21 GMT
From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Single Territory Planets

These thinkings are an aspect to the net's discussion about "Single
Terrain Planets".

Why on Earth :-) are the majority of the sf stories written so that
the inhabited planets are populated by:

a) a single homogen race
b) a single nation?

You just have to look at our own planet to discover the meaning of
free will and the nature of animals in the whole universum.

Kent Sandvik
ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden
PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home
ARPA:  enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:  ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 23:11:32 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Single Terrain Planets

jef@unisoft.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes:
>flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) wrote:
>>Actually, I can conceive of a planet of ice. Assume that a world
>>has an abundance of water, and the temperature is consistanly
>>below freezing everywhere on the planet. Sublimation will cause
>>clouds to form, and, given enough time, every place on the planet
>>will be subject to snow.
>
>Where did the water come from?  Where did the atmosphere come from?

While some of the single-terrain planet ideas have been very silly,
ice planets are not. It's not that hard to make the Earth into an
ice planet (or at least make a simplified Earth model get REAL
COLD.)

Ice is very reflective, you see. About 65% of the sunlight in the
polar regions is reflected, compared with ~20% at the equator. Cover
the Earth with more ice, and you reflect more sunlight, so the Earth
gets colder. The unstable global average temperatures are roughly
245-270 Kelvin (-25 to 0 Celcius). If the global temperature gets
below 0 Celcius, it drops to -25 quickly, and it's hard to warm it
up again.  Reducing the solar radiation 10% should do it, also.

The stable regions are av. temp < 240K, solar radiation < 1.2 *
current, which is the ice covered Earth solution, and av. temp >
275K, solar radiation > .95 * current radiation. A stable ice
covered Earth isn't hard.

Note on the model used: This is indeed a very simple climate model.
Latitudinal variations are ignored, and the global albedo
(reflectivity) is purely a function of global average temperature.
For equilibrium temperatures, incoming radiation = outgoing
radiation.  Solar influx = emissivity * sigma * temp^4.

This doesn't take into account a lot of the complexity possible, but
nevertheless I feel this shows that an ice-covered Earth is not as
unlikely as some respondants have said.

I'll give more details on request.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
...seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Apr 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #192
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #192
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 14:47:46 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: RAH's Early Works

>In DAT, humanity is divided into people who have been bred (for
>greater intelligence, resistance to disease, lack of allergies...)
>selectively, and into those people referred to as 'controls'-- no
>variations from the basic stock.  The 'controls' provide a baseline
>for humanity (and have allergies, and wear glasses).
>     So tell me, Eric-- did I get it right ?

No.  And stop calling me Eric!

You're thinking of the book (not story), 'Beyond this Horizon'.
'The Day after Tomorrow' (also titled 'Sixth Column') is about the
conquest of America by the Yellow Peril and the subsequent triumph
of good old American knowhow.

A note on 'Beyond this Horizon': It was written back when humans had
48 chromosomes.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 13:28:20 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>  Look at the instance where LePaz tells Mannie that the Earth
>committee was going to make an offer that would have been accepted
>by the Lunies, and that he had had to be personally offensive to
>the committee members to ensure that only an unacceptable offer
>would be made.  Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from
>his comrades, he is acting contrary to their interests!

No, he is acting contrary to what they want. His whole justification
for acting as he does is the computer predictions that loss of bio-
material due to grain exports will ruin the lunar ecology to the
point where mass starvation will occur in 7 years - cannibalism in
another 2. De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the
loonies for their own good. An interesting wiew, considering that he
(or at least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding
people to do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral.

Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined?

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 01:40:41 GMT
From: seismo!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine)
Subject: Re: sources...

   Eric Carpenter asks if Heinlein's earlier works had been
forgotten, in favor of his current ones. I would say that Heinlein
is remembered PRIMARILY for his earlier works, and much of the
postings referencing newer stuff contains an implied (unfavorable)
comparison with older books (pre-Stranger in a Strange Land). Among
several books left off the list is my personal favorite Heinlein,
'Double Star'(56) in which a down and out comic actor is bamboozled
into impersonating a famous political figure. It won a deserved Hugo
for best novel. In fact 'Double Star' is on my list of the Twenty
Best SF novels.

   I agree mildly with the implication present in many of the
postings about Heinlein's recent writing; that He has become wildly
self-indulgent in choice of plot, character and expressed
philosophy. I also find His recent writing worth reading several
times, more than I can say about a lot of other more enjoyable
writings by other authors that, though carrying less objectionable
baggage, carry very little into the story beyond incident and
milieu.

   Other earlier work not mentioned includes 'Podkayne of Mars'(63),
'Starman Jones'(53) [containing classically bad predictions about
computers of the future], and 'Red Planet'(63) [my start in SF with
Door into Summer].  Tying into another recent discussion about
stories wherein a character learns that the universe is a fake
(simulation/movie-set/etc), the short novel 'The Unpleasant
Profession of Jonathon Hoag (47)' suggests that our world is a
botched work of art. (And I quite agree that the profession of Art
Critic is an unpleasant one :-)).

Neil S. Erskine
MT&T - (902) 453-0040 x340
ForceTen Enterprises
3845 Dutch Village Rd.
Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9
USENET: {watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai,seismo}!dalcs!force10!erskine

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 04:43:52 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay

Kevin, I think you're getting things confused.  You are trying to
make comments about the essay, replies about the essay, the book,
the characters' beliefs and the author's beliefs and character.

Either try to clearly distinguish these things or formulate some
systhesis more elegant than assuming the words of the characters in
the story represent the literal beliefs of the author.

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>  This is true even in TMIAHM, where the character *supposedly*
>advocates anarchy, but is at *heart* a tyrannical elitist, as the
>essay points out.  See, the Prof is most content when *he himself*
>has maximal personal freedom, *regardless* of the amount of freedom
>anyone *else* has.

No, he is perfectly willing to give his peers the same freedom,
assuming they accept the responsibilities he feels he must.

>  In TMIAHM, the Prof finds that the best way for *him* to get
>*his* most freedom is to become a tyrannical dictator!

Yes?  This is exactly the topic that is being covered, the relations
of the individual, the concepts of of anarchy/libertarianism and
society as a whole.  Lots of example and counter-example scenarios
presented for your consideration.

>  Note: Heinlein openly supported the Vietnam War, advocating its
>continuation!!

To assume this is a sin is knee-jerk at best.

If you study Heinlein's non-fiction essays (try Expanded Universe),
the sense is that he feels that Communism (or Marxism/Leninism as
practised in the USSR, etc.) is an anathema to the flavor of rugged
individualism he believes in and that it is therefore his (or anyone
else's) duty to stand up and be counted or be prepared to accept
their fate.

Whether this is a reasonable position is perhaps a topic for a
politics or philosophy newsgroup.

>This is one of the reasons I believe that the highly conservative
>nature of his characters' ideological viewpoints is *his very own*
>viewpoint. He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful
>government so that he can be one of the power elite.

Nonsense.

Consider his comments on the political process, the responsibilities
of those in power and those rights that an individual should not
yield up to government.

Look, can the essay, it's either superficial or silly at best.  Talk
about what your insights, but give them some serious consideration,
since you are exposing them to hundreds of people who have also read
Heinlein and have considered how his themes relate to to their
beliefs and the society we live in.

P.S. If you find Vietnam significant, be sure you read enough to get
an understanding of alternate points of view.  Even a haphazard
study of 20th century history will yield plenty of examples of
America right *and* wrong and raise many an interesting question.

George Robbins
{ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 01:45:28 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

> stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>>  Look at the instance where LePaz tells Mannie that the Earth
>>committee was going to make an offer that would have been accepted
>>by the Lunies, and that he had had to be personally offensive to
>>the committee members to ensure that only an unacceptable offer
>>would be made.  Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from
>>his comrades, he is acting contrary to their interests!
>
> No, he is acting contrary to what they want. His whole
> justification for acting as he does is the computer predictions
> that loss of bio- material due to grain exports will ruin the
> lunar ecology to the point where mass starvation will occur in 7
> years - cannibalism in another 2. De la Paz feels himself morally
> obliged to con the loonies for their own good. An interesting
> wiew, considering that he (or at least Manny) thinks that the
> imposition of laws forbidding people to do this or that - FOR
> THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral.
>
> Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined?

Bernardo also states in several place through the novel that he
dislikes controllin people's lives as well- thus this behavior IS a
contradiction FOR de La Paz (NOT Heinlein), which he basically
admits.

But if faced with a choice between running those lives for a time,
or having those lives end due to starvation, cannibalism, and death,
he chooses to take charge.

Some basic views DO seem to pervade Heinlein's books- one such is
the Mob.  (not gangsters- a whole bunch of upset people) Perhaps due
to his military experience, I dunno, but his definition of a mob
seems to be a large, essentially brainless entity, which can smash
due to sheer numbers, but not plan and accomplish very well.

Before Mannie and Co., the Lunies were a mob.  Mannie, etc., provide
a leadership.  It's in their interests, and they have the skill
(maybe), so why not give it a shot?

Also, when Mannie debates with himself about the prospect of
starvation and such, he ties faces to these occurences- his family,
friends, children...  De La Paz is likely to do the same- we don't
know, as this is MANNIE's story (we see HIS mind, not anyone
else's).

Incidentally, as the semi-annual Heinlein arguements seem to be
getting into gear, let me declare MY alliegence- FOR Heinlein
(except for some minor quibbles, such as the end of TCWWTW- sequel,
anyone? Grrrrrr.)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 11:54:27 EDT
From: Mike Garcia <MTG%CORNELLC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

The unauthored essay on _The_Moon_is_a_Harsh_Mistress_ missed the
boat on many points, most of which were caught by other people.
But, I did find it thought provoking.  I would like to point out two
other errors.

The author could not understand how an anarchist band could follow
Prof LePaz.  Prof was Manny's mentor.  Manny was Mike's mentor.  I
don't see how there could be any disagreement on major issues in
this threesome.  Wy was an activist invited because her veiws were
simular to the veiws of the other revolutionaries.  There is no
reason the four of them could not function as a team.  And being
rational people, they selected a team leader.  I think it is obvious
that the "vote" was three to one in favor of Prof.

The other point that the unknown author completely missed was that
THE REVOLUTION WAS NOT CAUSED BY POLITICS.  The Authority was like
the weather, everyone grumbled but no one did anything.  The thing
that sparked the revolution was Mike's projection of the future.

*****  SPOILER HERE  *****

The Moon could not continue to ship grain to Earth indefinitely.  I
remember Mike saying something like " ... and cannabalism will break
out in seven years."  They were fighting for their lives.  The whole
point of the revolution was to stop the grain exports.

*****  SPOILER ENDS  *****

The point that I got out of it was that these four were stiving for
their own best interests as they saw them and because of this they
were working for the greater good of the MOON.  This justified the
means they used.  It was not so much that "the-end-justified-the-
means" but rather the alternative did.  These four did not get what
they wanted, instead they avoided what they did not want.

Mike Garcia

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 17:39:13 PDT
From: Hibbert.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Politics
To: ugcherk%sunybcs.UUCP@seismo.css.gov

I wouldn't mind getting into a discussion of this analysis of
Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress", but unfortunately, SF-Lovers
seems like the wrong place for it.  This novel is one of the most
overtly political by Heinlein even though there's no lack of
political tracts among his fiction.

There is plenty of room for an analysis of the SF aspects of this
book too, but that subject isn't even touched by the anonymous
review that was posted.  I'm somewhat surprised that the review
itself got past the moderator.  (Though I'll admit I've only been
reading the list for a month or so.  Are there fewer restrictions on
political discussions than I'd guessed?)

What's the appropriate place to send discussions of the politics of
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and of this analysis thereof?

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 03:40:20 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay

This is my favorite Heinlein novel for several reasons. I could go
on interminably, but I feel moved to mention a few points.

I see the political progression as well-done irony, as an example of
where those who work for "change within the system" wind up:
becoming The System.

Contrary to the essay writer's assertion, the government of Luna
(the Lunar Authority) was a classic "water monopoly", named for the
primitive dictatorships in the Mesopotamian area that held power by
controlling resources.  The LA are shown controlling water, power,
and FOB prices of produce. That's oppression.

The essayist, and other reviewers, do not comment on the crux of the
story: that Luna is headed for an ecological disaster of vast scale
within their lifetimes, possibly within ten years.  As Manny says
late in the book, what the Professor was after all along was the
destruction of the visible catapult, which put control of export
into the hands of the oligarchy running the revolution. Prof
justifies this in his commentary to Manny when Manny is disturbed by
the computerized theft of funds to run the revolution, but he does
so without recourse to any Judeo-Christian moralizing or posturing -
he simply says that he prefers things to go this way rather than
that, and that he's willing to accept the consequences.

Now, one can object that he simply could have sabotaged the main
catapult, but what would have resulted?  Real chaos, followed by a
police state.

Some other reviewers have refuted the charge that Luna is "brutal"
and that Earth is "civilized".  The basic rule of behavior
confronting men everywhere is: control yourself enough to live with
those around you, or others will do it for you.  If not controlling
yourself (to the local standard) means exposing others to
environmental hazards, such as on the moon, expect to be controlled
briskly and perhaps fatally.  The difference is that on the Moon the
mores are determined by natural law (it's hard vacuum out there;
there are 5 men for every woman, etc.) and Earth is goverened by
collectivist fiat.

The essayist may properly say that'd he'd rather not live under such
conditions.I won't argue with that, although I think I'd rather
enjoy it (them).

A final note.  The reason I like the Professor so much is that he's
the only Heinlein "adult authority figure" character who is
untouched by bitterness or cynicism.  Jubal Harshaw is a man of the
world, as is the Professor, but he is tired and disgusted with the
history of his life.  Lazarus Long is pragmatic and cynical. Oscar
Gordon is spoiled for life in America after walking the Glory Road.
And so on...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Apr 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #193
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #193
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 193

Today's Topics:

              Films - Worst SF Films & Good SF Films &
                      Android (2 msgs) & Dark Star (2 msgs) &
                      The Man Who Fell to Earth &
                      Zardoz & Scanners & Stalker &
                      Biohazard & Wizards &
                      Japanimation Mailing List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 02:53:01 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Worst SF

 Ok, here's some:

   _Spaceship_  one of the most bizzarely stupid flicks in a long
                time.

   _Space Hunter_ Ok, this isn't so bad, but you gotta admit, it's
                  a 3-D revisit to those of the old B movies that
                  were BAD!

   _Ice Pirates_  rented this one.  I wasted $2.

   _Plan 9 From Outer Space_ truly, truly, this will hopefully never
                    be outdone. If it is, the planet will crack in
                    shame.

And let us not forget the many, many movies which caused us to
quiver in agony at the mention of thier names.  Since I don't feel
   like quivering, I'll only say that they usually follow this plot:

   Earth is threatened by unknown aliens.  SAC is scrambled.  Their
   forces prove useless.  One man saves the planet, by walking along
   the outside of the alien ship with his helmet with the talking
   hole in it, and opening the hatch, breaking in, and wiping out
   the threat.  He returns to earth, and marries his old girlfriend
   from highschool.  ('course, this was also done WELL a few
   times....)

How about _Green Slime!_ - this'ns a REAL pain in the gm.

Or perhaps, something that was on recently here- _Santa Claus on
Mars_ or some such. - I watched 10 minutes, enough to observe things
like a radio set marked "Radio Set", and a secret invisibility
device marked "Invisibilty Device"...

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 13:02:42 PDT (Wednesday)
From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Little Shop Of Horrors

I just have to throw in another .02 cents.

I know all reviews of film are subjective, and we all have our likes
and dislikes, but someone said "Little Shop Of Horrors" was "a
really BAD movie".  I just have to TOTALLY disagree.  I saw the
original a long time ago, (campy), saw the play recently, (don't
miss it), and have seen the movie twice, (much improved ending over
the play).  I've seen "Rocky Horror" 29 times and I think I could
watch "Little Shop" the same number.  One thing these shows have in
common are lyrics that you can understand and that make sense, not
'baby oh I luv ya, oh oh, baby oh I luv ya, oh oh'.  The movie has
pace/action/laughs that never stops, the songs are great and the
plant is outrageous, not to mention some gut wrenching fun by Steve
Martin.  I just wanted to state that the film is really FUN, and I
didn't want anyone not to see it on the basis of a negative review.

Someone also mentioned "Krull" as 'not the greatest, but it was
entertaining...', oh come on now, now this was "a really BAD
movie"!!

Just saw 'Man Facing Southeast', I think there has already been
mention of it on the net already.  Its about an extraterrestrial who
admits himself into an insane asylum because he knows that if he
where to tell people who he was, they would put him there anyways.
He has a 'Christ-like' mission to save the world from itself.  This
film was very thought provoking and interesting.  Subtitled.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 23:10:34 pdt
From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
Subject: Android

One movie I haven't heard anyone mention is 'Android' -- a low
budget film with some beautiful performances, including Klaus Kinski
as a mad scientist . . . What impressed me most about this movie was
not the sex, violence, and hip spacecraft, but the soul -- something
Messrs. Lucas and Spielberg seem to have lost touch with.  Anyway,
it's available on videotape, and I'd say it's well worth two bucks
and an hour and a half of your time.

Love,

Arthur Evans
ARPA: rthr@ucscb.ucsc.edu
UUCP: {ucbvax, ihnp4!sco}!ucscc!ucscb!rthr

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 22:57:30 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Android

rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU writes:
>One movie I haven't heard anyone mention is 'Android' -- a low
>budget film with some beautiful performances, including Klaus
>Kinski as a mad scientist . . . What impressed me most about this
>movie was not the sex, violence, and hip spacecraft, but the soul
>-- something Messrs. Lucas and Spielberg seem to have lost touch
>with.  Anyway, it's available on videotape, and I'd say it's well
>worth two bucks and an hour and a half of your time.

ANDROID is a wonderful movie. I wanted to add that it won the
British 'Best SF film of the year' award; unfortunately I've
forgotten the name of the award, but it was well-deserved. See this
movie.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 01:07:17 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!jdia@RUTGERS.EDU (Wowbagger)
Subject: Dark Star

PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:

>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is now
>famous. Highlights (Non-spoiler):
>   An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift
>      shaft.
>   Bombs that argue about wanting to explode.
>   A Cryogenic Captain.  but who made it??  ...

You're thinking of Dan O'Bannon, later of _Alien_ fame.  (I think.)

I agree that _Dark_Star_ is great.  The only really good combination
of Science Fiction and Comedy that I've seen.  If you haven't seen
it, find it on video tape and rent it!!!

jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu
...![seismo|topaz|cmcl2]!rochester!ur-tut!jdia

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 18:39:12 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Dark Star

jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Wowbagger) writes:
>PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by someone who is
>>now famous.  Highlights (Non-spoiler):
>>   An alien that tickling a character as he is suspended in a lift
>>      shaft.
>>   Bombs that argue about wanting to explode.
>>   A Cryogenic Captain.  but who made it??  ...
>
>You're thinking of Dan O'Bannon, later of _Alien_ fame.  (I think.)

Try John Carpenter, as in _Halloween_ and _The_Thing_ (remake).

Indeed a hilarious movie.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
..seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 20:29:49 -0100
Subject: The Jerk who fell to Earth

From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
> [...] there is no reason for the set of bizarre rooms he is kept
> in-- you know, with the pingpong table and all. But it doesn't
> matter; the rooms are fragmented, stereotypes jumbled together
> with no certainty, like his own state of mind.)

Am I the only one who was reminded of this by the nearly final
scenes of Steve Martin's The Jerk, when he's in the emptying mansion
signing cheques and then gathering the ashtray, the paddle game, the
chair, "and that's *all* I need..."?

But on to other things...

> But as a factual point, there are two versions of the movie
> around.  It was first released with about 1/2 hour cut out; it has
> been rereleased with the cuts put back in. What was cut was about
> 1/2 explicit sex and 1/2 some pretty vital plot development. If
> anyone is going to see it, I strongly recommend trying to find the
> uncut rerelease.

I agree with those who feel The Man who Fell to Earth is a good
film, but I can easily understand the doubters.  I first saw the
film as a preview and thought then that it was way too long.  It
definitely needed cutting or restructuring of some sort.  But
there's cutting and cutting.  Cut the wrong parts and it just gets
worse; so perhaps that's what happened in the cut version.  I'm not
sure whether I've ever seen the cut version myself.  When I saw it
again, I didn't notice anything particularly missing.

> And even having seen it about six times in the last ten years, two
> of those being the uncut versions, there are in fact parts of the
> plot that I never caught on to. But it didn't matter; it's meant
> to evoke a mood, not be impervious to nitpicking of logical
> details.

I never liked the scenes of the alien planet.  I thought them
unconvincing: everything looked too fake.  But I also found the
alienness disturbing, and (presumably) this is something aliens are
supposed to do.  Back on Earth, the "explicit sex" contributed to
the same effect, only more so.  Cutting too much of this would
weaken the film considerably.  I'd be less concerned about losing
parts of the plot.

I agree that the film is not concerned explaining logical details;
part of its effectiveness is derived from what's left out and our
resulting confusion and uncertainty.  But the basic plot is, I
think, pretty clear in any case.  It's an alienated, adult E.T.
Things decay, fall apart, become meaningless.  No one phones home.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 17:04:00 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Zardoz

From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Has anyone seen the movie _Zardoz_?  It was a post holocaust movie,
>with Sean Connery.  I understand it was one of the more obscure
>movies, but I enjoyed it.  I was just wondering if anyone else had
>seen it and whether or not they liked it.

They showed it here at MIT as part of the annual science fiction
marathon.  It got the most cat-calls and "this is stupid" type
laughs that I have ever seen in a movie here.  The especially bad
parts are when everyone is "going to the second level" by holding
their arms out in front of them, wiggling their fingers and humming.
(Most of the audience started to imitate it.  It was stupid.)

I think _Zardoz_ was somebody's failed attempt at trying to make a
deep movie.

This is a definite MUST NOT SEE!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:16:27 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Scanners

From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
> I remember it as being very good

Oh, well.  I thought it had some of the worst, most wooden acting
ever.  The "exploding head" effect was popular then too (rmemeber
Outland), as was the "bulging skin" (Altered States), so they were
of course included.  As Cronenberg films go, I prefer Trancers and
Slither (a film that, unfortunately, has several different names --
not to be confused with Slither.  This is the one with the sexual
parasite beastie.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:19:57 bst
From: Ian Phillips <IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk>
Subject: Stalker

> Tarkovsky then went on to direct another SF film which I haven't
> seen; it's something about an alien visitation in mother Russia
> with the aliens leaving something behind that alters mutation
> rates (I think).  It has a short title which I can't for the life
> of me remember. Has anyone seen this film? It got some good
> reviews.

The name of the film is Stalker.

It's set in the Zone, which is a mysterious area of wasteland which
has strange powers. No-one really knows why the Zone exists, but the
general belief is is that it was caused by a meteorite. Some of the
powers cause people who wander in there disappear (the Zone is full
of traps) and people living around the Zone have 'Zone Children', a
kind of mutant.

It is said that at the centre of the Zone is The Room, which makes
all your dreams come true. The Zone is closed off by the military,
so to get in there you need to hire a Stalker: a guide.

The film revolves around 3 men: A Stalker, a Scientist, and a Poet,
who journey into the Zone for their own reasons.  It's about 3
hours, but very good and well worth seeing. It's in Russian with
english subtitles.

Ian Phillips
JANET: ip@bradford.computing

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 02:59:50 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Biohazard

While working my way through cheap 7-11 movies ($.99 weekdays) I ran
into a real hooter - BIOHAZARD.  It is unutterably bad.  It has Aldo
Ray (as a General) and stars ANGELIQUE PETTIJOHN (Trekkies will
remember her from "Gamesters of Triskellion"; she also has a bit
part in "Repo Man") as a lady who materializes junk from another
reality.  Later, she takes off her clothes and answers the
telephone, so we can leer at her substantial chest.  She
materializes a box that contains a dwarf in a blue rubber suit who
runs about killing.  There is a silly plot twist, and then you hear
the director say, "Cut!"  Huh?  They >gave up< filming the movie, it
was so bad!  And the rest of the movie is about 15 minutes of
>outtakes< from the rest - these are genuinely funny, such as the
sequence where the male lead is tuning in Angelique's nipple and her
wig falls off.  This was never released to theatres, as far as I can
tell, but just sold to the video cassette market.  Check your local
7-11.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 03:13:39 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: Wizards

From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>
> Only saw one person recommend my favorite animated flick; WIZARDS.
> This was reportedly done by Ralph Bakshi as a warmup before he
> butchered _The Fellowship of the Ring_.  WIZARDS was scary, cute,
> incredibly VISUAL.  I absolutely loved the climax, where the good
> [spoiler deleted] no goody-goody moralisim here.  Oh, this was
> thousands of years post-holocaust, which meant the animators had
> great fun with mutants.  I used to see this annually on campus,
> but having left that world years ago, its harder to find.

I found out something disillusioning about _Wizards_ (one of my
favorite films) at a con a few years ago.  Mark Bode was there (with
his mother, I think) talking about his father, Vaughn (sp?) Bode,
creator of The Yellow Hat, among others.  Mark alleged that Vaughn
had created many of the concepts and characters used in _Wizards_,
most particularly Nekron-99 (who was originally called Cobalt-60),
but that at Vaughn's death, Bakshi appropriated all of said concepts
and characters as his own work.  The Bodes got zilch in royalty-type
money for the film.  This statement, though it seemed to be backed
up pretty well, has not kept me from seeing the movie again since
then, but it did bother me.  Anyone know the TRUTH of the matter?
   Also, I have seen two versions of the film.  The first three
times I saw it, I was somewhat confused by the rapid passage of time
between the twins' birth and the main action of the story.  The
fourth time, I saw a copy in which the growing-up scenes had not
been cut!  It was only about five minutes of running time, but it
definitely helped make sense of the movie...

jed hartman
{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 00:11:16 PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Urusei Yatsura mailing list

     A mailing list has been set up for Urusei Yatsura fans.  If you
want to be on the list please send a note to:

   URUSEI-YATSURA-REQUEST%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Apr 87 0937-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #194
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 87 0937-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #194
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:

                          Books - Heinlein


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 17:59:23 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Dear NetUser: This is an article about Robert Heinlein and his
thoughts (as mirrored by mine). It is NOT a flame. Maybe you want to
try this despite its length. You might even like my thoughts - or
find out why you don't.

This is a response to a recent posting by Kevin Cherkauer
(ugcherk@joey), who quotes an apparently copyright-less and (now)
anonymous old `essay' about Robert A. Heinlein's *The Moon Is A
Harsh Mistress* that purports to "show that Heinlein has managed to
discredit himself and is not to be trusted as the authority on the
worlds in his own novel". I'm not going to quote significant parts
of this `essay' (this is going to be long anyway); go back and read
it if you need to. I think you can read this article without it, and
I'm going to rip that `essay' limb from limb anyway (very politely,
of course).

[Kevin says:]
>  Hope you enjoy it, and let's try not to flame *too* much. Note
>that this posting is very low-key. People keep trying to suck me
>into flame wars recently (which it is not too hard to do, if I feel
>wronged). OK?

Well, as a matter of fact, I didn't enjoy it. (I can see why the
author would avoid having his name on it :-). Still, you say that
you agree with it, so I think I'll point out some of the faulty
arguments (low-key enough?) in that `essay' of yours.

CAVEAT: (1) I don't have access to the book right now, and it's a
        year or so since I last read it (yes, I'm re-reading it
        occasionally!). If I have slipped in a factual error, then
        someone with the book handy please correct me.

        (2) I claim no inside information on Mr. Heinlein's thoughts
        and philosophy. Just mine, mine alone...  still I find
        myself agreeing with much of his ideas, so that this `essay'
        is partly shooting at me, too (and missing...).

I will try not to flame. And, please let's not start a special
edition on the bi-annual Heinlein Evaluation Contest. Your `essay'
criticizes the book's philosophy, not the style of its writing.

While the author of the `essay' is unknown (fortunate for him :-), I
shall give him a name for convenience's sake. Let's call him Mark
(such as in Easy Mark...) - any real-life Marks please don't feel
slighted. *The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress* is henceforth called simply
`the book'. Any quotations (in "") are from Mark's `essay'.

This `essay' has several major flaws. The main one is that it
completely misunderstands what Heinlein is talking about, and what
point(s) he tries to make. Mark starts out claiming that Heinlein
espouses a "rational anarchy", setting up the lunar society as "a
utopian ideal" thereof, and he spends most of the text proclaiming
that *unrestrained anarchy* is a bad, uncivilized thing. Agreed. It
is. It's just not, by a far shot not, what the book is about.

The lunar civilization (the `loonies') as described in the book is
not ideal.  It's not supposed to be ideal; what would you expect of
a bunch of deported (more or less) criminals and their descendants,
forced to labor under a foreign, militarily controlled regime (you
can't really call it a government)?  If you try to interpret the
*loonie* culture as a blueprint for an ideal society, you can easily
come up with all these nice points of criticism that Mark wallows in
for more than half of his `essay'. As it isn't, some of his points
are valid but they don't hit the intended target.

It is beyond my understanding how he can describe the loonies as
"much happier" [than people on Earth]. They aren't (on average).
They are laboring hard, under difficult, rather uncivilized
circumstances and what amounts to permanent military occupation.
They manage to survive, but there's not much more in it for most of
them. If at all, the loonies are happy not because but despite the
society they live in - but then as most humans, they generally
consider the things they know to be The Normal Way.

A major focus of Heinlein's book (if not THE major one) is how the
strange situation of the loonies influences and determines their
society; how a different economic, social and political environment
will combine with immutable human traits to create a different form
of human community. The loonies aren't necessarily better people;
they just have a different culture.  Living in the lunar colony is
DANGEROUS. The equivalent of crossing a street can end you in vacuum
if you're not careful. As a necessary consequence, the tolerance for
carelessness and stupidity is considerably lower than on Earth - the
fumbling of your neighbor can kill you. The lunar community is
CROWDED - if you want more space, you need to dig it, seal it,
install survival equipment and maintain it; so people tend to live
about as closely together as they can stand. Furthermore, the
deportees have come from many different, often contradictory
cultures on earth. Consequentially, the potential for social
tensions is high, and the loonie culture has evolved a somewhat
rigid code of social interaction (note that this is the opposite of
the `anarchy' Mark smells all around) that includes, as its most
visible trait, the extreme politeless that he seems to find so
offensive.

Loonies are not particularly afraid of each other. (In any case they
are less afraid of violent attack than of stupid accidents caused by
others.) What Mark tries to hammer into our heads is that in the
total anarchy he sees on Luna *he* would be afraid. (So would I.) It
just isn't. If anything, loonie culture is more rigid than today's
`modern society' (ha!), simply because there's less room for error;
the order just shows in different places. Mark makes a lot of fuss
about offenders being dispatched (killed), for him this is a sure
sign of barbarism (maybe overcrowded county jails are his idea of
civilization?). In the book's context, this is (global)
self-preservation - someone who won't (or can't) obey the social
code is a manifest danger to the rest. There's no working police
force, so vigilantism (modulo its modern bad taste) is a necessity.
[Besides, Mark wouldn't recognize a joke if it bit him in the back -
Mannie's remarks on the death penalty for bad breath are of course
not serious. Besides, Mark seems unable to understand that even
major characters in a plot can sometimes lose their temper and say
things that the story's author wouldn't approve...]

Mark realizes (surprisingly) that there is a "social natural
selection" on Luna. Indeed there is - serious offenders die and
therefore are unlikely to produce like-minded offspring (Think Of It
As Evolution In Action :-). It is, to a degree, really one where
"only the politest survive" (and pray what's intrinsically bad about
that? NO, I didn't ask you, Tim!), but it is by no means one where
"the strong murder the weak". The real anarchic element of the
loonie culture is that its members enforce its laws (i.e. customs);
an individual `strong' person who unprovokedly attacks a weak one
(or any one) will be dispatched FAST by any bystanders BECAUSE TO DO
SO IS A SURVIVAL TRAIT for all concerned. As for "men who touch
others' women", Mark must have dozed off during these chapters -
Heinlein makes it perfectly clear that ANY offense toward a woman
would cause ANY bystanders, male or female, to turn immediately
against the offender. (Extreme scarcity of females has made them
precious and put them into a position where they have the absolute
Right Of Choice - no male pressuring allowed. In loonie culture,
there is NO SUCH CONCEPT as *someone's woman*. Heinlein makes this
almost painfully clear, dropping into expository mode on occasion
(sigh!). But then, we can't expect Mark to READ a book he's
criticizing...)

Another misunderstanding (or is it intentional?!): "Possibly the
most blatant message the book has ... is one of rejection of
authority." Not so. Mark perceives an internal contradiction where
Mannie, the protagonist, rejects the authority of Earth government
and (Earth-imposed) Lunar Authority but accepts the authority of
Professor Bernardo de la Paz, a fellow co-conspirator during the
revolution against Earth and the mentor of the group. There is no
real contradiction, of course: Mannie accepts la Paz's *intellectual
authority* (due to the man's demonstrated abilities and personal
strength) while rejecting the *power-based* authority of the
government. The message, if maybe blatant, is rejection of
*unfounded, unjustified* authority. Heinlein does indeed believe
strongly that, as De La Paz says, "I alone am morally responsible
for everything I do." I.e., every- body must ultimately decide for
himself whether (s)he can morally submit to some purported
authority. Last thing I know, many moral philosophers in the West
think so, too. Mark seems to consider this idea abhorrent
("anarchic").

The third and "most telling blow to [Heinlein's] authority" finally,
says Mark, is the fact that the revolutionaries plan and execute
their revolt in a tight-nit, cell-structured, "oligarchical"
organization. (I'd like to see Mark try to organize a revolution by
committee.) Some of the protagonists (including their `mentor')
express their low opinion about the effectiveness of democratic
(committee) processes. In the first time after the revolution, the
small group of revolutionaries exercises control by "establishing an
oligarchy", which, Mark says, is in blatant contradiction to
Heinlein's supposed ideal of "pure anarchy". Of course, the
accusation goes awry again.  As I said before, "pure anarchy" is by
no means an "ideal" of Heinlein; by his judgment, it's not even a
viable form of society (because it IS NO society). Centralized,
directed control of a society in times of crisis is a concept that
even western democracies embrace (in the form of martial law,
emergency government and similar concepts). Yet Mark considers the
efforts of the protagonists to steer loonie society into a (to them)
reasonable direction as an Arch Crime.

OK, enough about Mark's misrepresentations. If someone really wants,
I'll get a used copy of the book and write a point-for-point
refutation of Mark's (mis)quotations and arguments. Many of them,
besides being based on wrong assumptions, are also flatly wrong in
the context of the story.

Now, let me try for a moment to find out why Mark has written this
`essay'.  It might, of course, be simply a misfired hack job. It was
always pretty easy to bash a science-fiction story if you refuse to
leave the (physical, mental and ideological) surface of the earth.
Besides, it usually goes well with the literature establishment
(e.g., your lit prof). On the other hand, Mark may have a real ax to
grind with Heinlein's ideas. Let's take a look:

The real philosophy behind this book (and almost all of Heinlein's
work) is the importance and GOODNESS of individual rights. Not as in
`civil rights', which (very roughly) translates to `the right to
have and do the same thing as the other guy', but as in `the right
to free pursuit of happiness' of the original Declaration Of
Independence. Heinlein's basic `point of life' is to learn how to
cope with the world around you, take a good look, decide what you
want to do and then go out and do it. He believes in your (and
everybody's) `unalienable right' to do that, and he also believes
that you may or may not be able to pull it off (and that you can
fail is not a flaw in God's Design).

Perhaps this is what brought Mark to the idea of "rational anarchy".
(More likely, he got it from some (better informed) article on
Heinlein's writing.)  The right to do things your way, of course,
doesn't mean that you can now go out and clobber your neighbor. You
can try, but you mustn't complain if he shoots you first, and you
can't complain either if he runs away and comes back with (depending
on locality and time) either the local police force, his larger
family or the rest of your neighbors. As many have observed, your
freedom ends at the doorstep of your fellow human; not because
there's any mystical Divine Law involved but for the perfectly
rational reason that a society, to survive, must discourage such
arbitrary intrusions.

Above all else, Heinlein is an advocate of reality. He and (most of)
his characters are less interested in the moral legitimization of
things than in WHAT WORKS. Instead of deploring what could or should
be or considering how unfair life is treating them, they take stock
and make do with what is available, imperfect though it always is.
If you have read more Heinlein, you will notice that he has no
particular love for anarchy and monarchy, democracy and oligarchy
alike, that he quite sharply finds the flaws in all of them - and
shows how despite these flaws they CAN be made to work if people -
REAL PEOPLE, not cardboard idealists - put their minds and efforts
into it. The "rational anarchies" that he indeed describes in other
books (not THIS book), e.g. the Tertius colony in *Time Enough For
Love*, work not because this form of society or (non-)government is
inherently better, but because its PEOPLE are resolved to MAKE IT
WORK (and are all geniuses, besides).

Needless to say, this concept of what a human ought to be does not
sit too well with ideologists of any persuasion. The left side
mislikes him because he want people to be DIFFERENT and UNEQUAL. The
right side rejects him because he wants people to choose their OWN
allegiances, instead of relying on The Word From Above. Liberals
(the real ones, not Democrats) mistrust him because he clearly sees
the limits of human freedom, the boundaries that reality sets him
and that he violates at his own peril (and that of his society). Mr.
Joe Random is uncomfortable with it because he would rather have The
One Right Solution served on a platter. Given that choice, Mark
could stock an entire closet of axes. (But on second thought, I
think I do him too much honor - he has more likely just hacked up
an `essay' from a reference source on Heinlein and some cursory
looks into the book).

By the way, there's one central slogan of the book that Mark has
completely omitted in his tirade. I am speaking of TANSTAAFL - There
Ain't No Such Thing As a Free Lunch. Or: nothing in the world is
free, you always have to work for it. Or: give value for value. Or
two dozen other forms that express the same idea. (If you have a
Heinlein collection, you can try to come up with this idea in each
book - it's in at least most of them.) A strong characteristic of
the loonie culture is that EVERYTHING has a value and is paid for as
a matter of course (not necessarily with money), including air and
water. The strange idea that `the government should provide it'
wouldn't occur to a loonie - he'll ask what it will cost and who's
going to pay the bill. (A question that more citizens should ask
hereabouts!) The principle that you always should give value for
value, never take things for granted, and that you always pay for
things what they are, in reality, worth to you - as obvious as it
seems to me - is quite unpopular with a lot of political and
philosophical pundits around here.

All right. Stop. End of monologue. There isn't space here to say
enough of it, and I doubt that this fits into sf-lovers anyway.

In case you haven't noticed: I am talking about the IDEAS behind
Heinlein's work, not his writing style. Don't send me mail telling
me that his style irks you; it gets on my nerves at times, too.
Still, Mark's `essay' dealt with ideas, not style, and so I've
replied in kind.

I've said it at the beginning, but let me DISCLAIM it again: I don't
know Mr.  Heinlein personally; I have no real or mystical access to
his thoughts and ideas. I MAY be completely wrong about him. (I
really don't think so, though.) I may also have inadvertently sold a
thought of mine as Heinlein's.  If so, I apologize to the master
(but not too loudly - I believe he would understand). Remember I was
working from memory.  The ideas above are mine, though anyone who
arrives at them independently is (very) welcome to them. (Copycats
are requested to mention origin of thought and not to distort it too
much :-)

If I have offended you, consider whether I have really offended YOU
personally or whether I have just broken some of your favorite
ideas. If you find the former, I apologize. In the latter case, I
hope it helps.

I am more than willing to talk about these things; the book,
Heinlein in general or the world in (even more) general. I think,
though, that we should take it off the net (or the trekkies will get
nervous :-). Let's use mail.  What do you say, Kev? And anybody else
out there!  And... thanks for your patience.

Peter Kiehtreiber
perry@inteloa.intel.com
...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Apr 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #195
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #195
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Apr 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 195

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (4 msgs) &
                             Dangermouse (3 msgs) &
                             Some Comments on SF TV

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87  09:38:25 EDT
From: drukman%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Max Headroom minor correction

marotta%gnuvax.dec@decwrl.dec.com writes:
> The network has shown three episodes of this new television series
> so far, on Tuesday nights at 10:00 in the Boston area.  It's based
> on the BBC pilot "Max Headroom" which was an interesting science
> fiction movie about a new advertising gimmick and the television

Great show!  I loved the original video and the TV show looks to be
way beyond just about everything else on the tube nowadays.  Just
one minor gripe about the poster's info -- the show was originally
run on Britain's Channel 4 -- NOT the BBC.  (In fact, Max is about
the only decent thing Channel 4 ever did - but that's another
story).

Jon Drukman
ARPA: jsd%oz@mc.lcs.mit.edu
BITNET: drukman@umass

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 13:07 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: M-M-M-M-M-Max Headroom

Cons:
There is a marked tendency towards a 'rip-off of the week' formula,
such as the 'Network' and 'Rollerball' rip-offs, not to mention the
cute, tho' unoriginal Gibsonian ICE.  As far as that goes, I figure
with the body banks and ICE, Max Headroom is about as close as we're
going to get to a 'Cyberpunk' television show.  The
characterizations are a bit trite, and the obvious relationship that
is building up between Theora and Edison will undoubtedly turn into
a tedious TV show romance.

Pros:
Of the 5 episodes I've seen so far, the only one which has
specifically insulted my intelligence was the afforementioned AI
episode, and to be fair, it was a good episode, EXCEPT the exploding
computer.  The characters, although trite, are at least
INTERESTINGLY trite.  The show looks like absolutely nothing else on
television.  The switches from film to video, or video on film, or
combinations thereof, are fascinating to watch.  The show is not
directed like a normal TV show, rather more like a movie.  It's
about a zillion times better than most other SF shows in the last
God knows how many years.

How long before we get Max Headroom fan fiction?

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 12:17:51 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, US Series
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

*** CONTAINS SLIGHT SPOILERS: BRACKETED BY !S! SYMBOL ***

I too have been watching Max with some trepidation, but so far I my
fears have been unfounded.

What I Like About The Series:

Casting: (I apologize for not using the actor's names, but I don't
have my VCR handy to check 'em out) with the exception of the Murray
character (same actor that played the weird judge in Hill Street
Blues, isn't he?), the casting is excellent.  The Bryce character is
the best "hacker" archetype character ever done, bar none.  Bryce
has just the right balance of arrogance and immaturity.

Use of video tech, including computer graphics.  The cuts to the
view from the mini-cam are especially good.

!S!
True science fiction elements and speculation.  For instance, on
last nights (Apr 28th) episode (I wish they had titles!), we had the
excellent idea that one day in the future, commercial slots on
networks might be exchange traded in REAL time, just like commodity
futures!  God, I wish *I* had thought of that!  What a beautiful
idea.
!S!

What I Don't Like About The Series:

Corporations As Heavies: With the exception of the Apr 28 episode, a
corporation has been the bad guy.  True, with good ol' Ivan Boesky
and Co., there's good reason for this trend, but I think there is a
tendency in Max to go overboard.  I hope we see more about the
political environment of 20 Minutes Into The Future.  Is the
implication that the world is run by corporations?

Insufficient character development for Max.  They could have spent
several episodes just describing the Network's efforts to get rid of
or capture Max, all the time giving us an idea of his capabilities,
limitations, growth, etc.  Finally, the Network would realize that
Max was helping ratings and decide to put up with him -- despite his
dubious loyalties.  From that basis, stories about Max and Edison
Carter could be developed.  I mean, there are many questions
unanswered: Why is the network so blase' about Max?  Why doesn't
Bryce write an attack program to hunt out Max and capture him?  When
Max appears on Theora's terminal, does he appear on the entire
network too?  What are his powers?

!S!
Exploding computers.  I refer to the A7 episode.
!S!

Ancient typewriter keyboards.  I have a theory, though.  I think the
order that we are seeing the episodes is NOT the order that they
were shot.  In the second episode (Rakers), Theora and Bryce have
modern keyboards.  In the Apr 28 episode, Bryce has a modern
keyboard, but Theora still has an old one.  In all the others, both
have old keyboards.  What gives?

So far, three out of five episodes have seemed padded out to me.  Do
you think that this show would work better as a 1/2 hour rather than
an hour show?

The Apr 28 episode was the best since the Origin's episode.  They
even gave Max 5 minutes at the end to be weird.  Wish I had taped
it.

Perry
caro.osbunorth@xerox.com
...!decwrl!xerox.com!caro.osbunorth

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 22:54:18 GMT
From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
Subject: Max Headroom -- April 28th show

Warning --  slight spoiler follows...

A few comments about the Max Headroom show of April 28th:

There was a small inconsistency that I noted in the plot.  As you
may remember from last week's show, Edison had to get rid of his
camera when he was being chased by the cops.  The reason for this
was that the cops (and presumably anyone else with the correct
equipment, for instance Network 23) could home in on the signal of
the unit.  Why then couldn't they use this technique to track down
the missing reporter?

Also, as was noted earlier, there are a lot of elements that I think
have been lifted directly from the movie _Brazil_.  For example, the
combination of sophisticated/primitive technology, like the
mechanical typewriter keyboard used as terminal.  Or, take a look at
the dark, ominousness of the city in last week's episode.

All in all, I do find the series to be enjoyable.  I wonder how long
it will last...

One last question: has anyone else read _Count Zero_, the latest
Gibson book?  I have not yet been able to find a copy of
_Neuromancer_, but if it is as good as his second book, it will be a
excellent read.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 87 15:03:04 GMT
From: seismo!unrvax!jimi!otto!rex@RUTGERS.EDU (Rex Jolliff)
Subject: Re: DangerMouse

From: a.d. jensen <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on Nickelodean
>every night, and had a couple of questions about the series:
>
>1) Are these all repeats?  Is so, are they making any more?
>How many were made?

As far as I know, The episodes you see on Nick. are the only
episodes that exist.

>2) Does DM ever have any enemies other than Greenback?

Yes. Some of his other enemies include:
   Count Duckula - A Vampire Duck that is infatuated with show
      business.
   A 6 ft. tall dragon with a HEAVY scottish accent.
   A giant animated pile of dishwashing soap suds.
   A Demon from another dimension.
   A clothes washer that unites all the household appliances and
      plots to take over the world.
I know there are lots more, But I havent seen the show for a long
time.

>3) I've got most of them figured out, but what in God's name is the
>furry thing always hanging around Greenback.

That is Greenback's pet caterpillar.  I forget the things names
though.

I haven't seen the show in a long time, so I could be wrong about
the limited episodes.

Rex Jolliff
rex@otto.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 21:09:02 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: DangerMouse

Look forward to a healthy size posting from me on this subject (I
hope this gets out - We've been gone for over a week and the system
quickly (?) catching up...)

By the way.. Has anyone seen the Dangermouse 'Little, Brown and
Company' books?

Paperbacks: The Trouble With Ghosts * By George, It's a Dragon
    A Plague of Pyramids * Danger Mouse Saves the World ... Again

Lift-the-flap Books:
    The Danger Mouse File * Bombs Away
    Invastion of the Creepy Crawlies * Taking the Red Eye

Picture Books:
    Noah's Park * The Wizard of Odd

Well, good luck Chapps and Chappesses....

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 87 21:15:35 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: DangerMouse

langbein@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (John E. Langbein) writes:
> From: a.d. jensen <UD040164%NDSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>> I'm really enjoying the DangerMouse shows which are on
>> Nickelodean every night, and had a couple of questions about the
>> series:
>     I recall a DM programme Guide posted a while back. Could someone
>re-post it also?

(I haven't seen a Programe Guide but I did post this list sometime
back, and we are working on a Program Guide for the 'Further
Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers' but I have recieved a request or
two to expand this episode guide..

                         DANGERMOUSE EPISODE GUIDE

Afternoon Off with the                 The Man From Gadget
     Fangboner                         Martian Misfit
The Aliens are Coming                  Mechanized Mayhem
Alping is Snow Easy Matter             Multiplication Fable

The Bad Luck Eye of the Little         Nero Power
     Yellow God                        The Next Ice Age Begins at
Beware of Mexicans Delivering               Midnight
     Milk                              Odd Ball Runaround
By George, It's a Dragon               Once Upon A Timeslip
                                       One Hundred Fifty Million
Cat-Astrophe                                Years Lost
Chicken Run                            One of Our Stately Homes Is
The Clock Strikes Back                      Missing
Close Encounters of the Absurd
     Kind                              Penfold BF
Cor! What a Picture                    The Plague of Pyramids
Custard                                Planet of the Cats
                                       Play it Again, Wufgang
The Day of the Suds                    Project Moon
Demons Aren't Dull                     Public Enemy Number One
Die Laughing
The Dream Machine                      Quark!, Quark!
The Duel
                                       Remote Controlled Chaos
Ee-Tea!                                The Return of Count Duckula
                                       Rogue Robots
Four Heads are Better Than Two
The Four Tasks of Dangermouse          The Spy Who Stayed in with a
                                            Cold
The Good, the Bad, and the             Statues
     Motionless                        The Strange Case of the Ghost
The Great Bone Idol                         Bus
Gremlin Alert
                                       Tampering With Time Tickles
Have You Fled From Any Good            Tiptoe Through the Penfolds
     Books Lately?                     Tower of Terror
Hear, Hear!                            The Trip to America
The Hickory Dickory Dock               The Trouble With Ghosts
     Delemma                           Tut, Tut, It's Not Pharaoh

Ice Station Camel                      Viva, Dangermouse
The Invation of Colonel K
It's All White, White Wonder           What a Three-Point Turn-Up For
                                            The Book
Journey to the Earth's 'Cor!'          Who Stole The Bagpipes?
                                       The Wild, Wild Goose Chase
The Long-Lost Crown Affair             World Of Machines
Lord of Bungle
Lost, Found and Spellbound

                       EPISODES ONE SHOULD NOT MISS
                      Subtitled: Secret Agent Secrets

The Trip To America: New York never looked like this!
Journey To The Earths 'Cor!': By Gum It's a bad one!
One Of Our Stately Homes is Missing: They said They Wouldn't do this
  one!
The Four Tasks of Dangermouse: Be glad Penfold's on YOUR side!
Quark! Quark!: (Did you see Episode 1:Season 4 of Blakes 7?)
Close Encounters of the Absurd Kind (See: Science Fiction!- I told
  you!)
Demons Aren't Dull: Dangermouse what a complete Incompetent!

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 17:22:15 EDT
From: Teresa Griffie (IBD) <tgriffie@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Misc. comments on TV programmes

From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
>Does anyone remember a short-lived TV show that came out shortly
>after the first Star Wars movie? It was called Quark. I don't
>remember it all that well, but it was a kind of parody of both Star
>Wars and Star Trek (mostly the former).

I remember such a show.  It was only on a few times; one of those
mildly amusing shows that are sent to oblivion a little while after
the season starts.  Another show in that category is "Police Story",
with Leslie Nielsen and others from "Airplane".  That lasted about 3
episodes.

I also remember another SF show, with a teenage boy as the star, and
Donald Moffat as an android named Rem.  It was called something like
"Fantastic Journey", and it wasn't on very long also.

From: seismo!isis!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
>I was wondering if any or all of the episodes of "The Prisoner" are
>out on videotape and if so, where I could get them.  Also, along
>the same lines, are there any novelizations of any of the episodes?
>Though they show them here in Denver (and on PBS stations in many
>other cities, too), I always seem to see the same ones over and
>over again.  Are there any other Prisoner/McGoohan fans out there?
>For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is his lesser-known
>series (I would think many more people know about the "Secret
>Agent" one), I always like it better.

I saw most of The Prisoner series on PBS a number of years ago.  I
don't remember seeing a large number of them, but I don't know
exactly how many there are.  I have been looking for them on
videotape also, but have had no success as of yet.  Personally, I
think that The Prisoner is one of the most interesting shows that I
remember.  Dr. Who was a far second because the quality of the
props, monsters, and surroundings seemed to be on par with the ones
seen on (dare I say it?) Batman.  But I was much younger then.

tgriffie@ibd.brl.mil
tgriffie@brl-ibd.UUCP
tgriffie@brl-ibd.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #196
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #196
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 196

Today's Topics:

               Books - Attanasio (2 msgs) & Clarke &
                       Hansen & Tepper & Tolkien & Wallace &
                       Buckaroo Banzai & Story Request &
                       Trade Paperbacks & Juvenile SF (2 sgs) &
                       Humorous SF (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 06:52:47 GMT
From: gsmith@brahms.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith)
Subject: Radix -- "Hard Science Fiction"???

dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>I picked up Radix when it first came out (in trade!!). Just as a
>warning to would be readers, Attanasio tends to get very technical
>and theoretical about his characters and things that happen (as
>some would expect in hard science fiction). If you enjoy good hard
>science fiction, pick up both of his books

  When I read this I got the feeling that David must keep canned
Spam where most of us store our brains. This is just wrong, boys and
girls. A book, to be called "hard science fiction", must at least
try to have something that looks like science in it somewhere. Using
"black holes" as a sort of mystic mantra to "explain" where all the
gods and wizards get their juice don't cut it. Otherwise, "The Magic
Goes Away" is also hard science fiction. (In fact Niven's use of
magic makes for a story with more of the hard science fiction feel
to it than "Radix".)

  Fun reading all the same, but it's *science fantasy*, folks!

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 20:04:42 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix

dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>I have read Radix and his other book (somthing like "Arc of the
>Rainbow"???)  and enjoyed both of them thoroughly. I picked up
>Radix when it first came out (in trade!!). Just as a warning to
>would be readers, Attanasio tends to get very technical and
>theoretical about his characters and things that happen (as some
>would expect in hard science fiction). If you enjoy good hard
>science fiction, pick up both of his books

EEEK! I'm glad you enjoyed _Radix_, but pleeeease take another look
at it -- it is nothing anywhere even close to "hard" SF.

I think I understand why you might, at first glance, think it is
hard SF: it goes into all sorts of theoretical (esp. physical)
explanations of all the various forces/powers etc. that are floating
around in the world, mostyl in the glossary in the back.

I must, however, disagree that it is anything similar to hard SF for
a *lot* of reasons (well, maybe not a *lot*, but *important* ones):

1) While the explanations in the glossary seem to be made of
   physical theories that are just sooo complex that the average
   reader is completely lost in the sauce, you must realize that all
   of this stuff is your basic b*ll sh*t!!  None of it is *real*
   theory -- Attanasio made it all up! (Or the huge majority of it.)

   I was thouroughly amazed at his ability to make so many things
   fit together so well in a universe that he has basically dreamed
   up (a lot of the things in the book indeed do have a very
   dreamlike quality).

2) The "explanations" really are not an integral part of the story,
   and do not serve to "justify" the story in scientific terms in
   any way. Maybe Attanasio is just trying to "awe the socks" off
   his readers (and he is very good at this), but you will *not*
   find a story even remotely similar to, ohhhh -- just to pull out
   a RANDOM example 8-), Asimov's "Nightfall," where orbital physics
   plays a major part in the story. Attanasio's fictional
   "scientific" explanations are not of that sort -- they are very
   phantasmagorical in nature.

   (Note -- I am not flaming "Nightfall" anymore -- I am just using
   it as the most prototypical example of what I consider to be
   classical "hard" SF I can think of off hand.)

3) Radix can very easily be considered a work of pure fantasy.
   Though its setting is a post-apocalyptic Earth (the apocalypse
   was not, amazingly, a nuclear holocaust), the story is so full of
   mysticism and other fantastical devices, it could easily be
   placed in the "fantasy" genre -- a non-medieval fantasy.

Note: at first glance, _Radix_ has the appearance and many of the
attributes of a juvenile work about a boy coming of age. I just
can't say it loud enough that this is not the case. The novel is a
very mature work with beautiful imagery and language. (Attanasio has
a vocabulary way beyond Webster, but this does not hinder the story,
as they are usually adjectives, of which there are plenty others so
that you will get the idea.)

The novel has a lot of the characteristics of an all too typical
Good vs.  Evil fantasy epic, but it blows these types of stories
away with the depth with which it is carried out. Good and Evil are
not black and white in _Radix_, as you will see if you read it.

Enough -- I am probably boring you, but I felt I had to defend one
of my all-time favorites from the horrible accusation of being
"hard" SF.
  I am currently reading it again -- one of the few books I have
found absolutely as good, and even better, the second time around.
  I hope I haven't sounded flamey -- I am not trying to be. Read the
book and enjoy -- but don't expect hard SF from _Radix_.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 18:23:04 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: The Songs of Distant Earth

Ah, yes.  A serious attempt to tell a story involving interstellar
civilization with perhaps-more-realistic-than-usual assumptions.
That is, no FTL, no Earth-type planets swarming around every star in
incredible numbers, and so on and on.  Most interesting.

But... does anybody know what current thoughts are on "vaccuum
energy" or "quantum energy" power?  Clarke mentions Feynman,
Wheeler, and Sheffield as having played around with the idea prior
to "Songs", but is the idea taken seriously, even by these people?
By anybody?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 87 12:29:21 EDT
From: brothers@paul.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Hansen, dream and war games

Well, actually, Dream Games is a direct sequel to War Games -- that
is why some characters have the same names! However, it takes place
later in the lives of the characters from War Games, who are not as
central.

If you read the books in succession, you should not have too much
trouble figuring out what has gone on, since there are asides in
Dream Games explaining what has happened to the characters from War
Games. Strange that you should think the two books not connected....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 87 11:23:37 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com
Subject: Uplift War & Tipper's next book

     In Sheri Tepper's True Names books there were three sets of
three books, and then a tenth.  Does anyone know when the tenth is
to be out?

Thanks in advance.
Have a good day.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1987 13:45 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien: _Lays of Beleriand_

Keith Anderson Writes
>Two new books by JRR and Christopher Tolkien have been released:
>_The Lays of Beleriand_ ...
>Has anyone read these?

The "the Lays" are not easy reading - most suitable for Lit. Crit.
types.  The alitterative verse is however attractive and CS Lewis's
comments entertaining...

The negative scenario that underlies Tolkien's Universe causes me
mild depression so I tend to take the pre-"Ring" histories in small
doses.

Dick Botting
Dept Comp Sci.
Cal State U
San Bernardino, CA 92407
voice:714-887-7368
PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 01:53:53 GMT
From: seismo!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine)
Subject: Availability of Ian Wallace books

   I have been looking in bookstores (new and used) for many years,
and have yet to discover any books by Ian Wallace other than
'A Voyage to Dari'. Does anyone know if they were ever released in
North America, and whether or not they are currently available?  I
was very impressed by the 'A Voyage to Dari', and would like to read
the other related books mentioned in it.

Neil S. Erskine
MT&T - (902) 453-0040 x340
ForceTen Enterprises
3845 Dutch Village Rd.
Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9
USENET: {watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai,seismo}!dalcs!force10!erskine

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 03:05:25 GMT
From: nee@sdics.ucsd.edu (Clydene Nee)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai and His Adventures Across the 8th Dimension

I have been looking for the novelization of the movie Buckaroo
Banzai and his Adventures across the 8th Dimension.

I know that the book exists some where out there.  If you, or you
know of anyone who would like to sell or trade, a copy of this book
then drop me a line.

Clydene Nee
sdcsvax.edu\!ics\!nee
US Snail : P.O. Box 2267
           La Jolla, CA  92093

------------------------------

Date: WED APR 29, 1987 11.20.08 EDT
From: "David Liebreich" <DCL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Story Request

Marty Cohen <mcohen@nrtc.arpa> writes:
>A short story I read numerous years ago (authors name forgotten)
>dealt with the only two telepaths in the world. Their paths first
>crossed on trains going in opposite directions. When they finally
>met, they were initially overjoyed, but when they began
>telepathically (and involuntarily) exchanging their most personal
>and embarrassing thoughts and memories, they became disgusted with
>each other.
>
>The last lines of the story, as I recall them were:
>
>"Get out of my mind. I hate you."

I read a short story with the same line.  It was about a man who
provided telepathic linkups between any two people, as long as he
got paid.  The main plot of the story is that he handles a linkup
with two very powerful minds, and is damaged in the process (he
keeps getting flashbacks and flashforwards.)

The line "Get out . . ." comes from the female of a husband-and-
wife couple when they go to him to "know the depths of their love by
experiencing total oneness . . ." or something like that.

I know I have the anthology at home somewhere, but since I'm at
school, could someone please tell me what the name of this short
story is.

Dave Liebreich
DCL1@LEHIGH
KDCLIEB@LEHICDC1

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 10:32:12 GMT
From: jml@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix

"Wishsong of Shannara" has been out in mass-market paperback in
Britain for some considerable time now (circa 6-9 months) after its
initial release as trade paperback.As far as I know it was never a
hardback here.

I have a complaint to make about trade paperbacks.They don't fit
into a nice shelf of mass-markets (looks pretty stupid to have two
or three books rising above the hundreds of small ones).

And whose idea was it to release the British edition of Katherine
Kurtz' Deryni books in trade whereas the American edition (normal
size) had been out on release here years ago? It means that a single
series has books of different sizes since it is now impossible to
get the American versions presumably due to copyright laws enforcing
only one publisher at a time.

Ah,well, I know it's not much to bother about.Just thought to
mention it.

Joseph McLean

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 20:28:11 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!edge!walker@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Walker)
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

>list of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group
>(knowing this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12,
>12-14, 14-16, and 16 & up".

5-10 year olds....

The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis includes: "The Lion, The
Witch, and the Wardrobe" and others that I can't remember the titles
to.

Rocketship Galileo by Robert Heinlein
The Rolling Stones    ""       ""

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 May 87 01:09:39-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re: juvenile SF

A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The Universe
Between" by somebody or other; the name that springs to mind is
Andre Norton, but that is wrong.  It's doctor something...

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1987 13:48 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Humour/Humor in SF

"The Silver Eggheads" by Fritz Lieber

What if publishers used computers to write pulp fiction...  Many
characters: robot and human and other unique(?) treatment of Robot
Sex...  Highly recommended!  My copy has fallen to pieces over the
last 20 years but I still read it.

Dick Botting
Dept Comp Sci.
Cal State U
San Bernardino, CA 92407
voice:714-887-7368
PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 01:01:33 GMT
From: seismo!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine)
Subject: Re: more humor in sf

   Most (if not all) of Ron Goulart's books are strictly for laughs.
One could almost call the Goulart novel a sub-genre, as I seem to
recall reading similar books by other authors. A particularly good
one is 'When the Waker Sleeps', which deals with a person who sleeps
for fifty years at a stretch, waking only for a few weeks. I suspect
that the treatment of the premise differs completely from that of
another recently mentioned story using it.

   Another commendable book in this class is 'Ten Years to
Doomsday', the author of which escapes me. When I first read this in
Grade 2 I thought it a gripping adventure novel, and for many years
sought a copy.  When I did find it, the book turns out to be a big
spoof on many of the oldest SF themes. The author is fairly well
known (might be Keith Laumer).

   John Boyd has written a couple novels of a comic nature, though
each had a serious line of thought present; 'The Rakehells of
Heaven' coming immediately to mind. Another one is 'Andromeda Gun'.

   Satire seems more common in SF than the slapstick humour of
Goulart, reversing the tendency of the mainstream. This may be the
result of the 'SF is Serious' school of thought (no flames from the
SF ghetto discussion conferees please!!). I personally would love to
see a writer of Tom Sharpe's talents turned loose on a few SF
universes created by authors who take themselves too seriously.

Neil S. Erskine
MT&T - (902) 453-0040 x340
ForceTen Enterprises
3845 Dutch Village Rd.
Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9
USENET: {watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai,seismo}!dalcs!force10!erskine

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 15:34:15 GMT
From: hack@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Jay Fenlason)
Subject: Re: more humor in sf

Ten Years to Doomsday was written by Michal Kurland and Chester
Anderson (sp possible, my copy is at home.)

"Mother is watching. . ."

Kurland has actually written several books, most of them very
amusing.  One of my favorites is "The Whenabouts of Burr", an
alternate history-time travel type story.  Yes, you can use your
credit cards in other realities.

hack@media-lab.media.mit.edu
...!mit-eddie!media-lab!hack

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 08:31:02 GMT
From: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Re: more humor in sf

Has anyone mentioned Ron Goulart's books yet? I havent seen his name
but I keep having to catchup on sf-lovers as it tends to come in
great gobs *SIGH*. Anyway RG is one of the best and funniest SF
writers I know, though his most recent books have shown a falling
off compared with early ones. I can recommend everything he has
written apart from Vampirella and the Battlestar Gallactica stuff.

Lindsay F. Marshall
JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs
UUCP: <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay
PHONE: +44-91-2329233

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #197
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #197
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 197

Today's Topics:

                      Films - IMAX (6 msgs) &
                              Movies Filmed in Space &
                              Bakshi (5 msgs) &
                              Night of the Comet &
                              Good SF Movies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 17:31:04 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: IMAX

mirth@reed.UUCP (The Reedmage) writes:
>The movie I KNOW was filmed on location in space, and said so in
>the opening credits, is _The Dream is Alive_, the IMAX shuttle
>film, which the astronauts themselves filmed on three flights of
>various shuttles.
>
>The screen is 5 stories high, and the only IMAX theaters I know of
>are at the Air & Space Museum in D.C., and a similar museum in San
>Francisco.  I believe there are one or two more.

The IMAX theatres I have been to (San Diego - The first in the US I
believe) are spherical theatres using 120mm film stock.  There is a
5 story theatre at the Smithsonian that can show IMAX films with a
special lens, but it doen't have the same feeling.

Other theatres include on at the MGM Grand in Lost Wages, Nevada and
I believe I have heard mention of one in Chicago which shares the
cost of production on some projects.  Also one at the tourism center
in Mexico.  And Canada also?  Not sure..

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 14:43:05 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: IMAX

IMAX is flat screen, OMNIMAX is dome screen.  Both use 70mm film,
projected "sideways" and great sound systems.

_The_Dream_Is_Alive_ in OMNIMAX is the next best thing to spaceflight.

There are dozens of IMAX/OMNIMAX Theaters around the world, and more
being built every day (The Boston Science Museum has one of the
newest)

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 16:59:12 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: IMAX

OMNIMAX is wonderful, indeed.  But I remember the credits to
_The_Dream_Is_Alive_ saying something about OMNIMAX by IMAX.  Is
IMAX the company or something?

The OMNIMAX at the Museum of Science in Boston uses film larger than
70mm.  The film does indeed move sideways.  The effect is great.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:11:55 bst
From: Ian Phillips <IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk>
Subject: IMAX IN SPACE

There's an IMAX screen in Bradford, West Yorkshire, England. It's
the only IMAX in the country and forms part of the National Museum
of Film, Television & Photography, which is well worth a visit.
I've seen about half-a-dozen different IMAX films and they're all
pretty good, but I think my faves are 'To Fly' and 'The Dream is
Alive'

ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu writes:
> The IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" was filmed by the astronauts in
> space using 70mm film cameras.

Are you sure they used 70mm cameras? IMAX is 70mm turned on it's
side.  I think it may be around 100mm wide, but I'm not absolutely
certain.  I've seen 70mm films on an IMAX screen (our local IMAX is
also a local film society) and they're nothing like as big or as
high-res as true IMAX films.

Incidentaly, while we're on the subject of IMAX. By far the best
IMAX film I've seen is the 3D one. I can't remember the title but I
do remember it was sponsered by Fujitsu.  It features computer
animation using the red-green seperation method, and it's a
documentary (of sorts) about molecules.  The 3D-fx are absolutely
stunning. They put all other 3D films in the shade (including the
polarised-separation ones).  If you get the chance, see this film!!!
It's only 10 mins long, but it'll be the best 10mins you'll ever pay
to see!

Ian Phillips
JANET:  ip@bradford.computing

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1987 19:37 PDT
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: IMAX

    There is also an IMAX theater in Los Angeles, next to the Museum
of Science and Industry in Exposition Park.  They are currently
showing three films:

The Dream is Alive
Chronos (like Koyaanisqatsi, only better)
We are Born of Stars (a 3D computer-animated quark-to-universe trip)

From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE)
>The IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" was filmed by the astronauts in
>space using 70mm film cameras.  Yes, they are big and bulky, but
>they didn't have to carry them around during liftoff.  If some
>lesser sized high quality format was used for some shots, I
>wouldn't be surprised, but you'd have to show me that film
>first....  I thought they explained all this in the film.

    I sincerely doubt this.  I mean, if they were willing to use
something other than an IMAX camera, we probably would have seen
some footage of the Solar MAX recovery, rather than the shots of the
mission control people that we had instead.  I wonder how they
managed to use a 70mm camera (are you SURE they said that in the
film?).  I mean, the aspect ratio is totally different, not to
mention the difference in picture quality.

    You have to remember 2 things about an IMAX camera: First, it is
very large and heavy, and therefore would still have enough momentum
to be unwieldy even in zero-G, and second, it has to be either
firmly attached to something, or used in combination with an
even-more-unwieldy steadycam or motion control system, since even
the most microscopic jolt is very noticeable when the screen is
three stories high.  Can anyone remember any zooms or pans in The
Dream is Alive?  I can't.

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
  ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 17:32:27 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: IMAX



Imax, a Canadian product invented by Grahame Ferguson and Roman
Kroitor in 1968 for Canada's pavillion at Expo 70 in Osaka, Japan,
uses 70 mm frames, but they are mounted sideways on special film
stock, so that 70 mm is the height, not the width of the image.
Width is about 200 mm if I remember correctly.  The world's only
supplier of Imax projectors is in Oakville (near Toronto), Ontario,
and the world's first permanent Imax theatre opened in 1971.  Called
Cinesphere, it is the centrepiece of Ontario Place, a recreational
park on Toronto's waterfront.  As far as I know, all Imax films are
still produced by Imax Systems Corporation of Toronto.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 19:02:32 bst
From: Ian Phillips <IP%UK.AC.BRADFORD.COMPUTING@ac.uk>
Subject: Filmed in Space

Another film that was shot in space was 2010.  The background scenes
of Jupiter were footage from the Voyager probe, after several hours
of supercomputer massaging.

I seem to remember that the credits at the end said
 "Filmed on location at...and Jupiter"

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 16:57:25 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Faulkner)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #173

hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman) writes:
> I found out something disillusioning about _Wizards_ (one of my
> favorite films) at a con a few years ago.  Mark Bode was there
> (with his mother, I think) talking about his father, Vaughn (sp?)
> Bode, creator of The Yellow Hat, among others.  Mark alleged that
> Vaughn had created many of the concepts and characters used in
> _Wizards_, most particularly Nekron-99 (who was originally called
> Cobalt-60), but that at Vaughn's death, Bakshi appropriated all of
> said concepts and characters as his own work.  The Bodes got zilch
> in royalty-type money for the film.  This statement, though it
> seemed to be backed up pretty well, has not kept me from seeing
> the movie again since then, but it did bother me.  Anyone know the
> TRUTH of the matter?

Wizards most definitely ripped off Vaughn Bode's work.  I have seen
a fair amount of his work, including the Coblat-60 character.  This
character is virtually identical to Nekron-99.  Bakshi didn't even
have the imagination to change anything about the character.  The
good wizard in the movie is also a veiled rip-off of Cheech Wizard,
the only difference being is that in the movie, you actually get to
see the wizard (Cheech was always covered up by his hat).

When Wizards first came out I really loved it, and saw it many
times.  However, since I have learned that Bakshi ripped-off Vaughn
Bode, without so much as an acknowledgement, I refuse to watch the
movie.  Do not support people that steal others creative ideas.

Bill Faulkner
Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research
PO Box 3000
Boulder, CO  80307-3000
303-497-1259
UUCP:  faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP
       ..!hao!scdpyr!faulkner
INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu
ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 17:11:57 GMT
From: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Bakshi: "Wizards" ripoffs, and "Lord of the Rings" success

wish he'd finish LoTR

Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for
"Wizards".  For years I tried to find out who did the very
characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular
etchings.  It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller.
Many of the scenes in Wizards, for example, the wrecked ships with
teeth, the cranes and machinery with grappling claws, and the
backdrop for Blackwolf's domain (that's the bad guy in Wizards,
folks) were precisely in Ian Miller's style.  Copying style is a
little fuzzier than copying characters, but artists, if not the
Copyright Office, still consider it plagarism when unacknowledged.

There were some other artists whose styles and motifs Bakshi used
without attribution.  Unfortunately, I can no longer recall who they
all are.

Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish
someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord of
the Rings.  Yes, the movie had some flaws.  There were too many
scenes with jerky experimental rotoscope techniques, overuse of WW
II films with horns and tails painted onto German soldiers, etc.
However, *despite* the incredible difficulty, indeed the
impossibility, of matching everyone's personal vision about what
Gandalf, etc., looked like, Bakshi managed to produce an excellent
interpretation.

My only complaint about the characters concerned the ents.
Everything *but* the ents looked reasonable, but the ents crawled
off the pages of a poor comic book.  I was especially pleased at
Bakshi's interpretation of the confrontation between Gandalf and
Saruman at Isengard.  That scene is only alluded to in the books;
Tolkien never wrote it out explicitly, and Bakshi did a nice job.
However, the movie (of the first half) didn't make it at the box
office, so we'll never see Bakshi's interpretation of anything past
The Battle of Helm's Deep.

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 23:47:32 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Bakshi: "Wizards" ripoffs, and "Lord of the Rings"
Subject: success

Stuart Friedberg writes:

> Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish
> someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord
> of the Rings.  Yes, the movie had some flaws.

I wish someone would fund someone other than Bakshi to do it.  In
Bakshi's LOTR, the Ring was just a minor subplot to take up space
between battles.  Frodo became a minor character.  And the animation
sucked.

Tim Smith
sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 17:26:02 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings"

I agree that it would be impossible to recreate the book as a movie
to everyones satisfaction. In fact, it is very difficult to
translate even a 200 page book to a 2-hour or so movie (though it
has been done) let alone 1000+. So whenever I go to a movie
adaptation of a book that I've read, I try to forget anything I know
from the book and just enjoy the movie. I'm happy if the movie is a
good one in itself, never mind how well it captures the book. Even
by this standard Bakshi's Lord of the Rings is a total failure. It
wasn't all bad, but the story was choppy and disjointed, and
depended on knowing the book. The real effective visual tricks was
overused to death (the wierd halfwork effect should have been
reserved exclusivly for the Black Riders) and the grand finale, The
Battle of Helm's Deep, was totally confusing, consisting of a lot of
orcs crossing the screen from left to right followed by a lot of
orcs crossing the screen from right to left, the whole thing
repeated af few times to use up some footage.

>Everything *but* the ents looked reasonable,

I know nobody agrees on how balrogs look, but does anyone really
believe they look like a distorted butterfly?

>I was especially pleased at Bakshi's interpretation of the
>confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard.  That scene
>is only alluded to in the books; Tolkien never wrote it out
>explicitly, and Bakshi did a nice job.

Since I can't remember the scene, it probably wasn't too bad.

>However, the movie (of the first half) didn't make it at the box
>office, so we'll never see Bakshi's interpretation of anything past
>The Battle of Helm's Deep.

And a good thing too.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 20:42:42 GMT
From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval)
Subject: Re: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings"

The "other half" of Lord of the Rings was made and released, about
4-5 years ago. It is called "Return of the King" and picks up right
where LotR leaves off (hobbits at Mt Doom and most ev'ryone else
still under siege.)

I've been scouting around trying to find a copy of it myself, so let
me know if anyone digs up a source (VHS, please.)

Dan C Duval
ISI Engineering
Tektronix, Inc.
uucp: tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 20:11:56 -0100
Subject: Night of the Banzai

From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>
> Someone else bemoaned the lack of "seriousness" in the film, DAY
> OF THE COMET.  I sorta thought it was intended as a spoof...

If you mean Night of the Comet (Valley Girls Meet the Comet
Zombies), I'm probably the someone else.  I thought it would have
been better if it had taken itself more seriously, OR less
seriously.  Maybe I was wrong...  My favorite mement was (SPOILER
WARNING) at the end when one sister was saying how it was up to them
(the sole survivors) to uphold the values of Western Cicilization by
not crossing the street against the light, and the other sister says
"but there are no cars any more"
... (END SPOILER)

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 13:23:10 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Good SF Movies
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>

I am truly surprised that with all this discussion about SF movies,
no one has mentioned my all-time SF favorite: FORBIDDEN PLANET. I
have seen this movie five or six times, and it's still captivating
(of course, Ann Francis counts for a lot of that). I'll restrain
myself from excessive drooling here, but I really think this is a
fantastic movie.

Regarding BRAZIL: Yes, this is a wonderful film. It's one of the few
films that has left me with a significant lingering "WOW" feeling.
But I would hesitate to call it science fiction. There was really
nothing in the film that relied on advanced technology or hitherto
undiscovered phenomena. And I don't think I'm being picky here, so
no flames please.

be seeing you

Josh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 198

Today's Topics:

             Books - Benford (2 msgs) & Brin (2 msgs) &
                     Brust & Louise Cooper & Susan Cooper &
                     Eddings (2 msgs) & Kennealy & Kurtz &
                     MacAvoy & Nourse & Vonnegut

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 17:39:56 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Heart of the Comet

A semi-OK book.  But did it remind anyone else powerfully of that
good old classic space-opera _The Moon is Hell_, by John Campbell?
Not that it was the same general plot, or the same ending, nor did
it have exactly the same characters.  But... somehow for me it had
the same sort of "feel".  Intrepid explorers developing biosciences
at breakneck speed (and with never a serious problem or setback and
with lots of serendipitous coincidences) to survive a hostile
environment, with ineffectual coaching from Earth, and all that.

All in all, I give it two stars out of five.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 19:08:26 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heart of the Comet

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>A semi-OK book.  But did it remind anyone else powerfully of that
>good old classic space-opera _The Moon is Hell_, by John Campbell?

Actually, I was kind of reminded of Gem by Fred Pohl, but that was
just the aura of a dilapidated space effort.  I think it was a quick
toss-off thriller with a hope of becoming main-stream best seller.
On the other hand, I did read the whole thing on one crack so it
must have been a good suspense novel 8-).

I guess you can forgive Brin and Benford for making an occasional
grab for the golden ring.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 01:02:34 GMT
From: pur-ee!pur-phy!dub@RUTGERS.EDU (Dwight)
Subject: Questions concerning David Brin

Hi there!

   I've  got a couple of questions concerning David Brin.

   First, the "Forthcoming Books" book states that Brin's "The
Uplift War" is due out in April 1987 by Phantasia Press.  Is this
true?  I haven't seen it around anywhere.

   Second, in Brin's recent short story collection (The River of
Time), at the end of the "self-propagating star-probe" story
("Lungfish") he states that Beserker-type probes have been discussed
by George Benford in "Across the Sea of Suns".  I can't find this
book anywhere.  Can someone help me?

Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,seismo,inuxc,uiucdcs }!pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub
      {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!galileo!dub
ARPA: dub@newton.physics.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 07:31:31 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Questions concerning David Brin

dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight) writes:
>  First, the "Forthcoming Books" book states that Brin's "The
>Uplift War" is due out in April 1987 by Phantasia Press.  Is this
>true?  I haven't seen it around anywhere.

   Yes it is out. Phantasia Press is a small press publisher. Unless
you have a specialty store near you, it is unlikely you will stumble
into it. The paperback is due out later this month (from Bantam).

Joe Kalash
ucbvax!unisoft!kalash
ucbvax!kalash
kalash@berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 04:37:56 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Brust

SQCR6W@IRISHMVS writes:
>  In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single posting
>about _To Reign in Hell_.  Did no one else read this book, or if
>someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very good
>book?  I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more than I
>did _Brokedown Palace_.

I haven't read BROKEDOWN PALACE, but I did read TO REIGN IN HELL and
wasn't too impressed. It is always difficult to tell a story that
everyone knows already in such a way as to keep it interesting, and
the society of Heaven just wasn't fleshed out enough for me, given
that I already knew how everything would work out. (Also, I have a
terrible time with books where you keep yelling at the characters
"Don't be so stupid! Go ask him what he meant! Stop jumping to
conclusions!" Sort of like horror films where they just insist on
going through the door you know they shouldn't...)

But I am eagerly awaiting the next JHEREG book (is there a name for
this series?)...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 87 21:04:28 PDT
From: mkao@pnet01.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: Louise Cooper

This new writer has talent! Her (?) _Time Master Trilogy_, which
includes _The Initiate_, _The Outcast_ and _The Master_, is
outstanding (so far)! I just started the third and final volume, but
it is worth noting that I spent about 2 days in completing _The
Outcast_! I heartily recommend it.  To insure my reception of any
replies to any of my posts, please reply via mail instead of
replying through the board.

Mike Kao
UUCP: {akgua,hp-sdd!hlpabs,sdcsvax,nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.arpa
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 87  21:56 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Susan Cooper novels - song

Julia Ecklar has written a filksong about Susan Cooper's Dark is
Rising series using mostly the lyrics from Cooper's poetry....it is
no more a spoiler than reading the prophecies at the start of the
novels, but just in case...

***SPOILER ALERT***

                         The Dark is Rising
                          by Julia Ecklar

Iron for the birthday, bronze carried long;
Wood from the burning, stone out of song;
Fire from the candle-ring, water from the thaw;
These six Signs the Circle in the last sign-seeker's call.

Fire on the mountaintop will find the harp of gold,
Played to wake the Sleepers, the oldest of the old.
Power from the Greenwitch that's been lost beneath the sea....
All these things will find the light; silver on the tree.

When the Dark comes rising, six shall turn it back;
Three from the Circle, three from the track.
Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone....
Five will return and one go alone.

On the day of the dead, the year too dies.
Find the youngest in the oldest hills, the door where sea-birds fly.
There fire will flee the raven boy and silver see the wind,
And the Light shall have the harp of gold in safety once again.

By the pleasant lake on Cadman's Way the ancient Sleepers lie,
Where the Grey King's shadows hunt the land, and wicked kestrels cry.
There one great thing of power by the Light shall sing and guide,
So the Sleepers might their long sleep end and for the Light out ride.

When the Dark comes rising, six shall turn it back;
Three from the Circle, three from the track.
Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone....
Five will return and one go alone.

The Grail is first to lead them, over sea and under stone;
The seekers soon to follow on a quest begun alone.
Ways evolve to guide and guard, paths to bring and send;
Circles both in Light and Dark from starting until end.

When the Light back from the lost land's shores at long last shall
   return,
Six Sleepers all shall ride again; six Signs shall brightly burn.
And when midsummer's tree grows up, all silver fair and tall,
Then dragon-sword against the Dark shall bring Dark's final fall.

When the Dark comes rising, six shall turn it back;
Three from the Circle, three from the track.
Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone....
Five will return and one go alone.
Five will return and one go alone....

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 14:17:55 GMT
From: faline!b2@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Reviews/Opinions on new Eddings: "Guardian of the West"?

** WARNING WARNING SPOILERS **

Capsule Review:

A disappointing mix of cardboard characters, obvious plot twists,
trite dialog, and nostalgic sentiment.  There is no excuse for
buying this turkey in hardcover; get it from the library or wait
till one of your less fortunate friends throws their copy into the
trash.

Longer (but not too long) Review:

The Belgariad series by David Eddings was good enough to garner a
small following of not-to-picky admirers, including myself.  The
first two books were the best, by the 5th and last Eddings'
weaknesses with characterization and dialogue were becoming
apparent, as well as a tendency to throw in new concepts and
characters, such as the fenlings and magic (vs. sorcery), with
little justification or benefit.

Guardian of the West, unfortunately, picks up where the Belgariad
left off.  All the main characters from the series have at least two
opportunities to mouth the exact same phrases they used time and
time again in the earlier series.  Eddings does reuse dialog by
having other characters say something or assume some expression
usually reserved for someone else.  Character growth?  Possibly some
in Errand, after all, where can you go with a boy that speaks only
one word?  Some in Belgarion, none in anyone else, not even the
4000+ year old ex-virgin Polgara.  Getting laid didn't change her a
bit. Oh yeah, almost all living (and
non-living-but-not-exactly-dead) minor characters have at least one
scene.  Hence the nostalgia that one is supposed to feel.

Errand is undoubtedly the focus of this new series, but he gets lost
in the shuffle since Eddings is forced to keep track of the comings
and goings of all the old characters as they wander around from
place to place.  Instead of tight group of characters all traveling
together you have all sorts of little groups off on their own.  It's
not very cohesive.

As for the plot, it's weak. Very weak.  Very Very weak.  Full of
holes too.  Errand has these incredible powers, and everyone knows
about them, but do they use them intelligently?  NO.  Do the
sorcerors demonstrate new abilities commensurate with those shown
before?  Do they make statements and show abilities consistent with
the earlier books? NO.  One example will suffice: Ce-Nedra informs
Belgarion their son has been kidnapped through her amulet.  What
does he do?  Turns himself into a falcon, for the first time, and
FLIES hundreds of miles to Riva.  Why didn't he use the shadow trick
to return immediately and capture the kidnappers before they left
the island?  That would have been too easy.

I could go on, but you get the point.  This book isn't worth the
$16.95 or so it costs.  Wait till it's out in paperback, then wait
until you can find it for .50 at a used bookstore.  Then you will be
getting what you pay for.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 87 22:44 EST
From: nj <SQCR6W%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Eddings

More (possibly late) reaction to _The Belgariad_ and the first book
of _The Malloreon_.

  I find myself agreeing with a lot of the criticism of Eddings'
work.  It's true that it is rather predictable, and some of the plot
devices are trite.  All I can say in protest is that every time I've
picked up the first book, I've reread the entire series.  For pure
_enjoyment_ of reading, I don't know of a better book, or set of
books.

nj

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 14:09:25 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Throne of Scone...

is volume *three* of Patricia Kennealy's "Keltiad".  "The Copper
Crown" turns out to have been volume two and "The Silver Tree"
(dealing with the feud between Aeron's father and Bres and the
events leading up to "The Copper Crown") will be volume one.

I suspect that squeezing the current story down to two volumes was
the editor's idea, rather than the author's.  "The Throne of Scone"
is very compressed -- it reads like a volume of twice the length,
with 50% of the material removed.  That hurts it since, as "The
Copper Crown" showed, Kennealy's strength is in her detail work.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 87  21:40 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Katherine Kurtz / Deryni

Sean Owens writes:
> The other is an anthology , (either Swords & Sorcery, or Flashing
> Swords, not sure which, #4, edited by Lynn Campbell, I think)
> which contains a short story about young morgan helping Brion
> Haldane to acquire magical powers.

The story is called "Swords against the Marluk" and is in Flashing
Swords #4, Barbarians and Black Magic, edited by Lin Carter.  I
don't know if it is still in print, but it is available through the
SF Book Club.

There is also a fanzine called The Deryni Archives (it predates the
book of the same name) to which Katherine Kurtz contributes
regularly.  It has the latest info on the Deryni books and her other
fiction, as well as articles on medieval/Eleven Kingdoms life and
short fiction - including the *entire* first draft of the first
book, "The Lords of Sorandor".  There are now 12 issues available, I
believe.  Information available at:

   The Deryni Archives Magazine
   c/o Yvonne John
   1348 McDowell Rd.  Apt. #101
   Naperville, IL 60540

Has anyone read her occult novel, Lammas Night?  Comments?

Oh, and I don't think that mysterious book that
should-be-out-but-isn't exists; she didn't mention it at Darkovercon
last Thanksgiving when she talked about her upcoming stuff.

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 19:02:54 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: The Grey Horse

R.A. MacAvoy's latest is an improvement on _Twisting the Rope_ and
_The Book of Kells_, in my opinion.  The story, while simple, is
engaging, and is finely drawn with lots and lots of detail.  It
shares an interesting feature with _Tea with the Black Dragon_ and
_Twisting the Rope_, and that is that the plot, the story, and the
characters could be essentially the same without the fantasy
elements.  They are merely added as a sort of seasoning to what is
already a fine, wholesome mix.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 14:04:52 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Universe Between

>A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The Universe
>Between" by somebody or other; the name that springs to mind is
>Andre Norton, but that is wrong.  It's doctor something...

Alan Nourse.  It was good wasn't it?  It's just been reissued in
paperback.  Is his "Raiders from the Rings" also out?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  1 May 87 12:11:29 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Between Time and Timbuktu

If memory serves me correctly, _Between_Time_and_Timbuktu_ was
originally a play that was made in to a movie.  The play was indeed
written by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.  It was a conglomoration (hodge-podge)
of many of his other fictional works, including: "Happy Birthday,
Wanda June" (itself a play), "Harrison Bergeron", "The Sirens of
Titan", and perhaps several others.  The space flight thing was used
to string the segments together.  I know that the movie is shown on
PBS occasionally, but I don't know if it was ever a theatre movie
(that is, it may have been made exclusively for PBS).

It's quite a movie---it's even better if you are familiar with
Vonnegut's other works.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 1154-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 1154-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 199

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (8 msgs) &
                             Quark (2 msgs) & 
                             The Prisoner (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 18:29:59 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!gnome@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom -- April 28th show

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) says:
> A few comments about the Max Headroom show of April 28th: Why then
> couldn't they use this technique to track down the missing
> reporter?

Because she was using a Cameragun, not a SatCam.  The SatCam's are
much more expensive -- for use by top reporters only.  Not only
that, but who can afford to have a SatCam controller for each
correspondent in the field?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 16:16:07 GMT
From: sanjour@cvl.umd.edu (Joe Sanjour)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom -- April 28th show (SPOILERS)

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) writes:
> There was a small inconsistency that I noted in the plot.  As you
> may remember from last week's show, Edison had to get rid of his
> camera when he was being chased by the cops.  The reason for this
> was that the cops (and presumably anyone else with the correct
> equipment, for instance Network 23) could home in on the signal of
> the unit.  Why then couldn't they use this technique to track down
> the missing reporter?

It seemed clear to me that her camera was just that, a camera. They
have mentioned several times that Carter's camera is a
sophisticated, `state of the art' piece of equipment.

> Also, as was noted earlier, there are a lot of elements that I
> think have been lifted directly from the movie _Brazil_.  For
> example, the combination of sophisticated/primitive technology,
> like the mechanical typewriter keyboard used as terminal.

How about the cars and trucks? Most are from the '50s. But the
terrorists in the most resent episode had a very modern looking van.
The Metro police drive what looks like old UPS trucks.

Joseph Sanjour
Center for Automation Research
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
ARPA: sanjour@cvl.umd.edu
UUCP: seismo!cvl!sanjour
(301) 454-4526

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87  22:04:40 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Max Headroom

For all of you who worry that Max et al. will sink in the ratings
morass and never be seen again, take heart: Max Headroom finished in
the top 20 this past week (4/30/87).  It must have been that 24-hour
sweeps period....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 23:18:38 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan)
Subject: Max Headroom: queary about April 28 episode...

Well, I just watched my second episode of Max Headroom last night,
and perhaps I missed something in the first two episodes which would
have clarified one of the plot-devices of last night's episode.

What, pray tell, is a "ratings sweep".  I think they also referred
to this event as a "twenty-four-hour ratings sweep", implying that
the networks had twenty-four hours in which to establish as high a
rating as they could, so as to ***what***?  So as to influence
advertisers into buying their time?  So as to gain governmental
support of some kind?  So as to influence public opinion in some
way?

I don't quite understand why ratings would not be continuously
tabulated and monitered, given the technology evident in the series.
What possible significance could this particular twenty-four hours
have over any other twenty-four-hour period, or over the network's
ratings over the previous twelve months or some other measure?

Perhaps I am looking for consistency and logic where there is none.
On the other hand, I have been impressed with the series enough to
watch a second episode, and I will probably watch a third, so I
wonder if there is really some logic to that plot-device which I
failed to perceive...

T. Russell Flanagan

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 03:08:56 GMT
From: buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu (Elliott Buchholz)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom: queary about April 28 episode...

tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes:
>Well, I just watched my second episode of Max Headroom last night,
>and perhaps I missed something in the first two episodes which
>would have clarified one of the plot-devices of last night's
>episode.
>
>What, pray tell, is a "ratings sweep".  I think they also referred
>to this event as a "twenty-four-hour ratings sweep", implying that
>the networks had twenty-four hours in which to establish as high a
>rating as they could, so as to ***what***?  So as to influence
>advertisers into buying their time?  So as to gain governmental
>support of some kind?  So as to influence public opinion in some
>way?

Guess what?  It's not make believe.  Ratings sweep does exist.  Not
24 hours as in Headroom, but Sweep Week is used in our tv industry.
for one week, the ratings put out their best shows (not really best,
just the most provocative or most drawing) in order to win points
for something I'm not quite so sure about.  It has to do with
advertising and shares, I believe.  You'll recognize sweeps week by
the specials on teenage prostitution, News documentaries on local
porn shops, and Battles if the Network T&A.  It's not very well
hidden. (literally)

>Perhaps I am looking for consistency and logic where there is none.
>On the other hand, I have been impressed with the series enough to
>watch a second episode, and I will probably watch a third, so I
>wonder if there is really some logic to that plot-device which I
>failed to perceive...

Logic in the television industry?  That does not compute.

Elliott Buchholz
ARPA:buchholz@topaz.rutgers.edu
UUCP:rutgers!topaz!buchholz  v
Bitnet:buchholz@zodiac.bitnet
201 Joyce Kilmer Ave.
New Brunswick, NJ 08901

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 13:45:17 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: MAX HEADROOM the end of

   Haven't seen it posted yet, so I thought I would let everyone
know.  In the most recent TV GUIDE, the one for May 2 - May 8, it
lists the May 5 episode of MAX HEADROOM as the last show of the
series.

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 15:23:55 GMT
From: mtune!homxc!sdave@RUTGERS.EDU (D.BLAKELEY)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom: query about April 28 episode...

Sweeps week is the week when the ratings statistics are gathered
that the networks use to set their ad slot prices for the next
quarter. The original poster was correct in wondering why this would
still exist in the MH time period. Since the unique premise of this
episode dealt with having ad time sold in a commodity market with
short term swings, I would think there would be a real-time data
gathering mechanism that would do away with `sweeps weeks'.

David Blakeley

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 18:11:11 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!jaw7509@RUTGERS.EDU (Big Bopper)
Subject: Re: A-7

vince@hi.uucp (Vince Murphy [Alien]) writes:
>     Can anyone out there help me?  A friend of mine has been
>diligently searching for a movie or tv show containing a computer
>or robot named "A-7."  Does anyone have any ideas on what
>show/movie this relates to?

   I saw Max Headroom a week or two ago and it had an intelligent
computer named A-7 that Max loved and left.

   I don't know about anybody else, but I think Max has some real
good original thinking. It really shows what technology without
bound could reap. Granted, not in that particular episode.

John White
40 Belmont St.
Rochester,   N.Y.   14620
(seismo,allegra)!rochester!ritcv!jaw7509

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 17:57:29 GMT
From: seismo!gatech!mcdchg!illusion!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Marcus Hall)
Subject: Re: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any
Subject: competition?)

Yes, Quark was one of my favorites as well.  It was full of the cute
inter-references that are all the rage nowadays.  I remember one
episode where Quark was sent to the planet Polumbus to see why
everybody that went there was never heard from again.  It turns out
that there was a device there called a "Lymbacon", I think, that was
letting everyone there live out their fantasies and no one wanted to
go back.  Anyhow, Quark was given directions to get to the Lymbacon
thusly:
   ... and take a right at the Rodenbery bush ...
Also, at the end, Quark had destroyed the Lymbacon and with it the
fantasy of his childhood love.  He closed the show looking back at
the planet and saying "Goodbye Diane, goodbye Polumbus", which is a
play on the last (?) line from another Richard Benjamin movie,
Goodbye Columbus.

Anyhow, there were also so many good exchanges with Ficus.  "Ficus,
thanks a million." "A million what, commander?"; "Ficus, what can I
say?" "Anything you want to sir.", etc.

I do have these episodes on tape and can make Beta copies if anyone
is interested... (I may regret this offer, but oh well..)

Marcus Hall
..!{ihnp4,mcdchg}!illusion!marcus

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 00:11:21 GMT
From: robert@spam.ISTC.SRI.COM (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Quark (the best SF comedy ever? does it have any
Subject: competition?)

The pilot was the best, being a complete ripoff of Star Wars,
replete with "the Source"...

    "oh mighty Source, what does that monster down there want?!"
    "he wants to eat your head Quark."
or

    "oh mighty Source, how do we penetrate the Gorgons battlestar
     defenses?"

    "Quark, maneuver around the back and you will find an unused
     garbage chute into which you can drive the spaceship."

later followed by...

    "Source, I thought you said we would be undetected?"
    BLAST!
    "Quark, Even the Source can't be right all the time!"

And who can forget Gene/Jean...

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 09:51:09 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>Watching the last three episodes in one sitting was very weird.
>...The Prisoner #17 gets my vote for the weirdest hour of television
>shown EVER.

I watched 12 hours of that show straight while copying 12 episodes
from my tapes to a friends..boy did my head hurt. I hadn't watched
that much tv in about 4yrs all together (yes seriously, I don't own
one and see very little reason to, except for PBS perhaps) Show #17
- Yup, strange.

I think the idea behind it is very much the "you are your own worst
enemy" sort of idea, and once you realize that you are free.  Given
the context (time frame) of its creation i.e. almost exactly 20 yrs
ago. The ideas and fears it is based on become quite clear. After
all the number id depersonalization shtick was just getting a good
hold then, (we don't notice it anymore - just goes to show you how
well its implanted itself) Self realization, individual rebellion
and the spectre of the "ESTABLISHMENT" was the in thing. Must keep
these sort of things in mind when watching something from another
"era".

be seeing you..

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 09:59:31 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

Is the series "secret agent" that a couple of people have mentioned
in conjunction with "The Prisoner" perhaps in fact "Danger Agent" ?

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: Thu 30 Apr 87 16:21:58-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: Prisoner: The Lost Episode

Has anyone seen the episode called "The Alternate to the Chimes of
Big Ben?"  It's supposed to have never been aired on television.  I
saw it advertised in a Publishers Central Bureau catalog (both VHS
and Beta).  I was wondering if it would be worth purchasing.

Haruka Takano
Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 87 16:47:26 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: ENU2856%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk
Subject: Patrick McGoohan, Prisoner and Danger Man.

>For some reason, even though "The Prisoner" is his lesser-known
>series (I would think many more people know about the "Secret
>Agent" one), I always like it better.

You mean Danger Man.  Quite a lot of this was largely McGoohan's own
idea, as well.  In my view it is a shame he ever got out of tv, all
we ever see him play in films are two-dimensional villains.

ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl.cs-arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon 4 May 87 11:53:55-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: The Prisoner: Lost Episode

Since I've been getting questions about it, I looked it up in the
catalog again.  Here's the catalog blurb:

   THE PRISONER: LOST EPISODE. Patrick McGoohan. "The Alternative
   Chime of Big Ben," mysteriously never aired, reveals the secret
   behind the penny-farthing bicycle -- an integral symbol of the
   series. Color. 55 min. A must for all fans.

You can get a catalog by sending a request to:

   PUBLISHERS CENTRAL BUREAU
   Department 493
   1 Champion Avenue
   Avenel, New Jersey 07001-2301

PCB originally dealt with books (mostly hard cover). Their catalog
now has books, tapes, records, cassettes, CDs, and video tapes
(books and video cassettes take up most of the space). Their prices
are usually reasonable, and they usually send a new catalog every
few weeks. No purchases required (this is NOT a book club).

Haruka Takano
takano@hplabs.hp.com
takano%thor.hpl.hp.com@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 17:16:30 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Re: Prisoner: The Lost Episode

From: Haruka Takano <Takano%THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>
> Has anyone seen the episode called "The Alternate to the Chimes of
> Big Ben?"  It's supposed to have never been aired on television.
> I saw it advertised in a Publishers Central Bureau catalog (both
> VHS and Beta).  I was wondering if it would be worth purchasing.

I wrote to the Prisoner "Six of One" appreciation society in
Hatfield, Pennsylvania and received lots of good information,
including an ad for this episode on videotape.  This episode is the
same as "The Chimes of Big Ben" but includes some extra footage not
shown in the original release of the episode.

This information comes from the ad, I haven't seen the videotape
myself.

Quoting from the ad:

".. video release pf the pre-broadcast version of The Chimes of Big
Ben, taken from the only surviving 16mm print. This was one of the
first completed films from The Prisoner and it a rare glimpse into
the world of television production.  It has different theme and
background music, additional dialogue, alternate edits and
soundtrack mixes, different "takes", additional scenes, and a
fantastic closing credits sequence that seems to reveal a possible
meaning behind the pennyfarthing symbol of the Village.  With more
than two dozen differences between this first version and the
finally broadcast one, it is truly a unique experience to see.  The
story is the same, some difference are very minor, but it WAS the
way that the episode was first put together, the way we MAY have
ended up seeing it!.....

The "six of One" fan club information also indicated that an
alternative version of the first episode "Arrival" was also
available.

Bob

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 1232-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 1232-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 200

Today's Topics:

          Books - Leiber (2 msgs) & C.S. Lewis (6 msgs) &
                  Martin (2 msgs) & Roberts & E.E. Smith

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 22:14:58 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!mirth@RUTGERS.EDU (The Reedmage)
Subject: Lankhmar (quick note)

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Lankhmar: from Fritz Leiber's "Lankhmar" zillogy, about 2 roguish
>heros who get in and out of trouble from their semi-legal
>activities.
>  I have read only _The Swords of Lankhmar_. It is pretty good and
>semi-funny light reading.

Kev, you need to extend the above statement a tad -- "semi-funny"
implies that the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories try and fail to be
*very* funny.

Actually, they vary widely; some are romps, some are horror, some
are straight adventure.  All are light reading, as Kev said.  Most
are excellent examples of such.  I've read them all (at least, I
think I have), and liked them all.  Still, read "semi-funny" as a
compliment (I think that's how Kev meant it).

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 17:53:35 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rolf@RUTGERS.EDU (Rolf Howarth)
Subject: Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser

Does anyone know if Fritz Leiber has published any Fafhrd and the
Grey Mouser (oh all right, Gray Mouser if you insist) other than the
six "Swords" books?  Since most of the stories were originally
published in magazines it's conceivable there are some which aren't
in the books, isn't it?  (Also it says something in the intro to the
AD&D Lankhmar game book about drawing on the material from the books
and *other* short stories).

I've read the six books N times, but I gotta have another fix of new
material :-)

(If you haven't read them yet yourself, you should.)

Rolf
Dept. of Computer Science
Warwick University,
Coventry, CV4 7AL England.
Tel:    +44 203 523523 ext 2485
UUCP:   {seismo,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf
JANET:  rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 00:09:39 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

walker@edge.UUCP (Dan Walker) writes:
>>list of kids stories, broken down by the appropriate age group
>>(knowing this varies among individuals), such as "ages 10-12,
>>12-14, 14-16, and 16 & up".
>
>5-10 year olds....
>The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis includes: "The Lion, The
>Witch, and the Wardrobe" and others that I can't remember the
>titles to.

It certainly does vary by age. I first read the Chronicles of Narnia
at around six, and still reread them and enjoy them (and not just
out of nostalgia, either!) I'm 22. They are just terrific; I can't
recommend them highly enough as books that you will feel good about
your kids reading: thoughtful, intelligent, and exciting. The books
are:
   The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe
   Prince Caspian
   The Voyage of the 'Dawn Treader'
   The Silver Chair
   The Horse and His Boy
   The Magician's Nephew
   The Last Battle

They should be read in this order.

                    ******SPOILER FOLLOWS******

The books are based on Christian mythology and imagery; I know a few
people who have heard this and been turned off, either because they
are extremely religious non-Christians, or because they don't want
to read/have their kids read books with an overpowering religious
viewpoint. PLEASE don't let this fact turn you off them. It is not
overpowering at all; I was about 18 when I suddenly clicked on 'Oh,
so THAT'S why the lamb turned into a lion!' The ideas of
self-sacrifice and higher morality are universal (well, no, they're
not, but they're not just Christian either). The Christianity comes
through in fairly minor ways: Aslan is the great ruler
(semi-godlike) and he is the son of the Emperor-Over-Sea, whom we
never meet; he allows himself to be killed to save a foolish boy; he
tells the children he sends back to our world 'you must learn to
recognize me in your own world now', etc.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 17:23:21 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

walker@edge.UUCP (Dan Walker) writes:
>The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis includes: "The Lion, The
>Witch, and the Wardrobe" and others that I can't remember the
>titles to.

I remember reading these about ten years ago.  I can't remember all
the titles either, but one very good one for someone who's read
_The_Lion,_the_Witch,_and _the_Wardrobe_ is _The_Magician's_Nephew_.
It explains the history of the magic (or spacetime portal or
something equally future-scientific for those of you who don't agree
with the connotation of "magic") in the wardrobe.

"What's a Neevil?"

Matthew Belmonte
Internet:  <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 23:29:29 GMT
From: oltz@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Michael Oltz)
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

The 'Chronicles of Narnia' books were numbered by the publisher in
the order C.S. Lewis wrote them.  However, he wrote the history of
Narnia as it occurred to him.  Therefore, if you want to read the
books in the order that they tell the history of Narnia, go this
way:

The Magician's Nephew
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe
The Horse and His Boy
Prince Caspian
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
The Silver Chair
The Last Battle

Mike Oltz
...!rochester!cornell!tn!tcgould!oltz

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 08:06:55 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (The Good, the Bad, & the Ages)

gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes:
> a Neevil is "an evil" mispronounced (misunderstood) by a child.
>After all the main characters are about 7 years old.

Actually it was mispronounced by one of the newly-created talking
animals near the end of _The_Magician's_Nephew_.  Aslan (the Christ
figure) remarks to the talking animals that although Narnia has just
been created, already an evil has entered it.  You're right, though,
the talking animals are like children.

Matthew Belmonte
ARPA:  <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 22:46:14 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: the Chronicles of Narnia

oltz@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Michael Oltz) writes:
>The 'Chronicles of Narnia' books were numbered by the publisher in
>the order C.S. Lewis wrote them.  However, he wrote the history of
>Narnia as it occurred to him.  Therefore, if you want to read the
>books in the order that they tell the history of Narnia, go this
>way:

NO NO NO NO! Don't read them in the order they 'happen'; the series
works much better if you read them in the order they were written,
which does in fact move around the Narnia timeline. There is no
reason to read them in timeline order; you won't understand most of
the significance of THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW if you read it first, for
example.

READ THEM AS C. S. LEWIS WROTE THEM!

(not a flame, just a STRONG disagreement)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 22:55:46 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: more Chronicles of Narnia

belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte) writes:
> [with respect to the word 'neevil']
>Actually it was mispronounced by one of the newly-created talking
>animals near the end of _The_Magician's_Nephew_.  Aslan (the Christ
>figure) remarks to the

Although this is a true characterization, it is a dangerous
oversimplification. I've seen too many people turned off to this
WONDERFUL series by hearing that it involves much Christian
symbolism to be comfortable with tossing off phrases like 'the
Christ figure'.  Aslan is that, but much more: he and Christ are
both symbols for something (no religious flames please...)

>talking animals that although Narnia has just been created, already
>an evil has entered it.  You're right, though, the talking animals
>are like children.

No, they are without sin, innocent. Children (sometimes) are as
well, but the intention is not to make the animals childish. That is
the whole point of the misunderstanding and mispronounciation of 'an
evil'; the animals have no idea what 'a neevil' is.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 13:11:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: George R. R. Martin query

From:   thumper!mike    (Mike Caplinger)
> "...I can't claim to be an exception. Abner Marsh and Joshua York
> [1], Sandy and Maggy and Froggy [2], Val One-Wing [3] and
> half-faced Bretan Braith [4], Kenny with his monkey [5], poor
> wasted Melody [6], the improved model Melantha Jhirl [7], and the
> callous Simon Kress [8], and of course my lost Lya [9]. When I
> type I can see their faces...."
>
> ...I can't place either [5] or [6]. Can anybody else? I thought
> I'd read everything Martin ever wrote, but obviously not.

[5] is from "Remembering Melody", which first appeared in ROD
SERLING'S THE TWILIGHT ZONE MAGAZINE, April 1981.

[6] is from "The Monkey Treatment", FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION, July
1983.

Both stories were reprinted in Martin's collection SONGS THE DEAD
MEN SING, published in the US only in a limited edition from Dark
Harvest (I believe there is a British paperback edition, though).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 00:00:05 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin query

bothner@navajo.UUCP (Per Bothner) writes:
>Mike Caplinger asks which George R.R Martin story has "Kenny with
>his monkey." It is "The Monkey Treatment," which can be found in
>Gardner Dozois' first annual year's best collection (the
>brick-sized trade paperbacks, of which three have been published so
>far).

Actually, the fourth volume has just come out. Buy it or miss it.
These really are the best "Year's Best" anthologies, especially
since the untimely death of Terry Carr precludes many more volumes
from him. Dozois's books are from St. Martins, are 500+ page trade
paperbacks, and are sitting on the table next to my bed for reading
and reference on a moment's notice.

>Kenny is seriously overweight, and the "treatment" is a way to lose
>weight - but a rather unpleasant one. The story may be Politically
>Incorrect in assuming that fat men cannot attract women (Martin
>chivalrously ignores the possibility of fat women). Apart from that
>minor nit, it's a hilarious story: A paean to the joy of food.

It should be pointed out here that Martin is not particularly
slender; I don't know him at all (although I haunted him at WorldCon
past), but I suspect that he might well have been prodding into his
own past to see what hurt the most, and then using the Orson Scott
Card method ("Who's in pain here?") to write a story about it.

Gardner Dozois, on the further hand, is morbidly overweight.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 14:49:10 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!sysdes!minster!john@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: The Science Fiction of Keith Roberts

Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK> writes:
>One problem with Molly Zero is that I couldn't quite figure out the
>politics.  Just what was the nature of the government?
>Totalitarian?  Left?  Right?  Why did they have such elaborate
>schemes for dealing with people like Molly?

The regime that raises Molly Zero seems to be a right-wing
totalitarian state created by an Army revolt. The post-holocaust
factor arises from the situation created by a single nuclear device
exploded over Birmingham, UK. "Molly Zero" has some similarities to
"Ender's Game"; Molly is being trained, with many other adolescents,
for high office in the regime - she is to become one of the 'Elite'.
The elaborate way her rebellion is dealt with might be considered an
elaborate means of psychological assessment and/or character
strengthening. The narrative style (2nd person present tense e.g.
"You do this, you do that") is upsetting at first (I found it quite
a shock to discover that 'I' was a woman, despite the title!), but
becomes convincing and enjoyable as the story progresses.

>Keith Roberts has also written another post-holocaust novel -- in a
>completely different universe -- called "Kiteworld".  It was
>supposedly excellent, but I didn't find it so.  It contains a
>number of separate but partially connected stories.

Someone who has read "Pavane" might suffer from deja-vu when reading
"Kiteworld"; there is a similar politico-religous totalitarian state
(though quite unlike the regime of Molly Zero), and an organisation
similar to Pavane's Signallers (the Kite Corps). Pavane, too, is
composed of several interlocking short stories. It starts with the
premise that Elizabeth I was assassinated on the eve of what becomes
the successful invasion of the Spanish Armada in 1588, and
Reformation England was returned to the stagnatory grip of the Roman
Catholic Church. The main events of the novel take place in Dorset,
England, circa 1968 - 1990.

John A. Murdie
Dept. of Comp. Sci.
University of York
England
ukc!york!minster!john

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 87 17:17:27 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
Subject: The Lensman Series

In a (probably unsuccessful) effort to get yet another ad nauseum
discussion on the (de)merits of RAH switched to a different topic
(by my count, this is the third time he has come up in detail in the
past 8 months...which is considerably more than semi-annually...) I
have been desperately digging through my memory for something to
pique and divert the attention of the debators, and think (hope) I
have come up with a possiblity.

Being an RAH reader myself, (although I have studiously avoided
"Job" and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls") while eagerly devouring
"The Number of the Beast" (only the first part...which is why I
avoided...see paran above) the protaganists early on in the book
write down a list of their favorite SF novels. One of the ones they
all agreed upon was E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series.  Now, I had
been hearing about these books for years, and had been looking off
and on for them for quite some time, without success.  Could never
find the first book, don't you know, and I do prefer to start a
series from the beginning.  Anyhow, I finally made a special trip to
a very special bookstore in Carmel-by-the-Sea, and found book number
TWO (The Grey Lensman?? The First Lensman??) which I immediately
bought and read.  Verdict:

(flame on!!!)

IT WAS AWFUL!!  TRULY AWFUL!!!

I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally
poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally had
to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so many
people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven alone knows
why....

Now, I have nothing against "older" SF, and can happily suspend my
current level of technical knowledge and read an out of date story
for the story's sake.  I realize, too, that I have only read one
book of this series.  However, unless someone can convince me
otherwise (as in #2 is not characteristic of the rest of the series)
I don't care if I ever pick up another Lensman book again.

No one has mentioned this series on the net yet, so I am hereby
soliciting input/discussion/disagreement etc!!!

Sheri

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 1314-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 1314-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 201

Today's Topics:

              Films - Dark Star (2 msgs) & Scanners &
                      Trancers (2 msgs) & Zardoz & 
                      Green Slime & Little Shop Of Horrors & 
                      Good/Bad Movies (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 19:41:36 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!jdia@RUTGERS.EDU (Wowbagger)
Subject: Re: *GOOD* SF Movies

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Bob Myers) writes:
>jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Wowbagger) writes:
>>PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>>>"Darkstar" - made as a student project (USC) by some-one who is
>>>now famous.  ...but who made it??
>>You're thinking of Dan O'Bannon, later of _Alien_ fame.  (I think.)
>
>Try John Carpenter, as in _Halloween_ and _The_Thing_ (remake).

Actually, both of us are correct.  Both Dan O'Bannon AND John
Carpenter worked on _Dark_Star_ in college.  It seems that during
the remake into a full length film, O'Bannon got pissed off and
refused to do any more work.  It is noted that depending on luck
which edition you see, O'Bannon either does or doesn't get any
credit.  If the opening credits say "_Dark_Star_ The Special
Edition" then this is the one where O'Bannon gets credit.

BTW, O'Bannon acted in the original part of the film, but his
absence (in fact the entire character's absence) is noticed in the
parts that were added later.  This includes the entire scene chasing
the alien about the ship, I believe.

INTERNET: jdia@tut.cc.rochester.edu
UUCP:   ...![seismo|topaz|cmcl2]!rochester!ur-tut!jdia

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 14:49:03 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: DARK STAR

> From: ur-tut!jdia
> ...Both Dan O'Bannon AND John Carpenter worked on _Dark_Star_ in
> college. It seems that during the remake into a full length film,
> O'Bannon got pissed off and refused to do any more work.  It is
> noted that depending on luck which edition you see, O'Bannon
> either does or doesn't get any credit. If the opening credits say
> "_Dark_Star_ The Special Edition" then this is the one where
> O'Bannon gets credit.
>
> BTW, O'Bannon acted in the original part of the film, but his
> absence (in fact the entire character's absence) is noticed in the
> parts that were added later.  This includes the entire scene
> chasing the alien about the ship, I believe.

This may be true in some alternate universe, but certainly not in
ours.  Nothing I have ever read about DARK STAR suggests anything of
the sort.  What's your source for this?

The original, college version is circa 45 minutes long, the expanded
one about twice that. I have not seem the former, but the latter
definitely has Dan O'Bannon in the credits. And O'Bannon appears
throughout the alien-chasing sequence. Indeed, his character,
Pinback is the one who is trying to capture it!

Lastly, I haven't seen any version of the film entitled DARK STAR:
THE SPECIAL EDITION. It's possible that a videotaped version exists
under this title with O'Bannon's name removed, but this is highly
unlikely.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 23:54:12 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Scanners

jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK writes:
>Oh, well.  I thought it had some of the worst, most wooden acting
>ever.  The "exploding head" effect was popular then too (rmemeber
>Outland), as was the "bulging skin" (Altered States), so they were
>of course included.  As Cronenberg films go, I prefer Trancers and
>Slither (a film that, unfortunately, has several different names --
>not to be confused with Slither.  This is the one with the sexual
>parasite beastie.)

Ah, different tastes and all. And I did say I saw SCANNERS a *long*
time ago. (Is my memory way off, or didn't it come out well before
ALTERED STATES?)

I can't tell what the titles of the movies are you're referring to.
Is that 'TRANCERS AND SLITHER, not to be confused with SLITHER'?
Which one is the one with the sexual parasite beastie? I saw that
one (at least I assume it was that one--how many Cronenberg films
can there be with a s.p.b.?) under the name THEY CAME FROM WITHIN.

(Actually, I never saw RABID, but I think it might also be said to
have a s.p.b.)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 20:10:55 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!canisius!robotron@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave
From: Lesinski)
Subject: More *GOOD* SF movies

How about some lighter SF? Trancers was a terrific movie. Jack Death
is hilarious as a kind of future "Sledge Hammer" in this SF parody.
I love the shot of semi-submerged Lost Angelos, not to mention
Jack's time-stopping wristwatch. One bit of trivia, though, was that
a Blade Runner car parked outside the cafe early in the film? Sure,
the movie does have some minor plot discrepancies, but its
fast-paced, exciting, and a good hour-and-a-half of pure fun.

Dave Lesinski
5877 S. Feddick Rd.
Boston,NY 14025
(716) 941-6785
UUCP: {decvax|watmath|allegra|rocksvax}!sunybcs!canisius!robotron
      ames!canisius!robotron
CSNET:  robotron%canisius@CSNET-relay

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 18:52:09 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Trancers

>  How about some lighter SF? Trancers was a terrific movie. Jack
>  Death is hilarious as a kind of future "Sledge Hammer" in this SF
>  parody.

That's "Jack Deth", not "Death".

"Trancers" was interesting in its approach.  Both Tim Thomerson and
Helen Hunt (the leads in "Trancers") are primarily comic performers.
While the movie was a bit tongue-in-cheek, it was played as a
regular action/adventure story.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  2 May 87  17:31:33 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy R. Steinberg)
Subject: sf movies: the good, the bad, and the BAD

MILD SPOILERS FOLLOW

I was exposed to Zardoz during a science fiction class. The movie
opened with Sean Connery firing his gun at the audience, probably to
spare us the torture of sitting through the film(I've seen better
films on bacteria cultures). Sean Connery goes through the entire
movie wearing little read shorts pulled up to his armpits, raping
every women in sight but it makes no difference since they all died
anyway. The special effects were not even worthy of Doctor Who.
Also the scenes with people covered in Saran Wrap were stupid, and a
flying head that looked like a reject from Easter Island with
rotting teeth. The only good part of the entire movie was when Sean
Connery was being forced into an orgy on the main street of the
city(how often do you see James Bond gang-raped?).

END MILD SPOILERS

>I think _Zardoz_ was somebody's failed attempt at trying to make a
>deep movie.

The professor in my class was trying hard to show the philosophy of
the film, but it still wasn't hard to rip it to shreds.

>This is a definite MUST NOT SEE!

The only reason anyone should see this movie is if they were
poisoned and wanted to get sick. The only flick I have ever seen
worse than Zardoz was Eraserhead, but that's another story.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 04:28:13 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!nosc!humu!uhccux!todd@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: On a lighter note...

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>How about _Green Slime!_ - this'ns a REAL pain in the gm.

Green Slime had one redeeming feature: It was so bad that it
approached "campiness" and I started to enjoy it from that point of
view about a third of the way through the movie.  I recall the rest
of the audience taking that point of view too.  The "hero" was so
dumb whenever he actually did something sensible the whole audience
cheered.  So of the other movies mentioned (Galaxy of Terror, etc.)
were just plain bad and boring.

Todd Ogasawara
U. of Hawaii Computing Center
UUCP:{ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd
ARPA:uhccux!todd@nosc.MIL
INTERNET:todd@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 18:12:36 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Little Shop Of Horrors

From: pmacay.PA@Xerox.COM
> One thing these shows have in common are lyrics that you can
> understand and that make sense, not 'baby oh I luv ya, oh oh, baby
> oh I luv ya, oh oh'.

One of the things that really GOT to me about this movie was how
difficult it was to get all the lyrics. The Supreme-alikes' voices
got on my nerves throughout, and they seemed to be trying to fit as
many syllables into each line as they possibly could (apologies to
the limerick). And that New York accent of Ellen Green was so
overdone, and appeared so forced, that I almost cringed whenever she
started to sing.

The plant, though, was quite understandable. And why didn't Steve
Martin get an Oscar nomination? Who do we complain to about that?
It's not too late!

John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87  11:36 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: BAD SF movies...

Here are my nominees for WORST SF movies of all time:

1) PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE - THE bad SF movie of all time. Bela
     Lugosi died mid-way through filming, but Ed D. Woods, Jr.
     figured no-one would notice that a dentist took over the role
     if he kept his cape pulled up over his face, even though he was
     a head taller then Bela. Who could forget those flying hubcaps?
2) ROBOT MONSTER - The gorilla suit with the diving helmet. His
     'radio' to his home planet was a short-wave radio with a
     bubble machine on top.
3) BARBARELLA - Featuring a delightfully air-headed Jane Fonda in
     her first film, in a fur-lined space ship.
4) HORROR PLANET - Klaus Kinski was in this dog, I believe. A
     blatant rip-off of the original ALIEN.
5) SUPERGIRL - She's sickeningly sweet, and the plot is awesomely
     bad.
6) CAPTAIN AMERICA - featuring Reb Brown as the worlds first retarded
     super-hero.
7) MARS NEEDS WOMEN - The title says it all.
8) TWISTED BRAIN - Teenage-science-geek-discovers-formula-that-turns-
     him-into-a-maniac-and-gets-revenge-on-tormentors. Exquisitely
     bad.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 87 14:48:48 EDT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF films

   There is one film I remember seeing that no one has mentioned.  I
vaguely remember it and I won't pass judgement on it (it was
DIFFERENT) cause people like strange things (Neil Young was popular
once). Anyway John Huston was in it and Glen Ford had a part in it
too. It seems a 12 year old girl is developing strange god like
powers and an evil group of humans with unseen assists from aliens
are trying to gain control of the girl. John Huston is some sort of
human/alien/angel who i sent to earth too straighten things out.  He
does and the last scene is of Huston in a room (obviously) on
another planet with lots of kids (including the girl in question) in
robes and bald..

 There was an interesting film with David Hemmings. It deals with an
association of 20th century vampires. Much takes place on a vampire
vacation resort where herds of humans are kept and connected to
machines that look just like automatic milking machines. There are
some neat scenes of vampire tourists in Bermuda shorts taking
pictures of the happy herds.

 Does anyone else recall these movies. I swear I saw them (on the
tube late)

Jerry Freedman,Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 07:20:32 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: BAD SF movies...

From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Here are my nominees for WORST SF movies of all time:
>1) PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE - THE bad SF movie of all time. Bela
>   Lugosi died mid-way through filming, but Ed D. Woods, Jr.
>   figured no-one would notice that a dentist took over the role if
>   he kept his cape pulled up over his face, even though he was a
>   head taller then Bela. Who could forget those flying hubcaps?
>
>2) ROBOT MONSTER - The gorilla suit with the diving helmet. His
>     'radio' to his home planet was a short-wave radio with a
>     bubble machine on top.

I agree with the first two choices but I must insist as number three:

3) SANTA CLAUS CONQUERS THE MARTINS - Even with Pia Zadora in her
acting debut, nothing could save this film.  It was produced by the
owner of KCOP TV as a Christmas Special and was done so poorly the
children knew their lines better than the adults..  To a friend with
a very strange sense of humor I gave him the soundtrack album..
With comic book retelling..

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!victoro
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 00:30:19 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of...

_Day of the Dead_, the third George Romero "Dead" film, is an
excellent post-holocaust film. The zombies have mostly a background
role in this film, unlike "Night of the Living Dead" or "Dawn of the
Dead"; here, the true villains are the Army guards who have been
assigned to protect a research institute investigating the zombie
virus. It is genuinely chilling, and has several excellent scenes,
including one where the non-military 'copter pilot explains to the
film's heroine that they should run off to a tropical island and
leave the zombie to rule the land masses, that they should turn the
world "into a tombstone and teach our children never to read it".
Unless you have a _very_ strong aversion to splatter (there's not a
whole lot, but enough that I feel obligated to warn you), I highly
recommend this.

_A Nightmare on Elm Street_ and _A Nightmare on Elm Street III:
Dream Warriors_ are both imaginative films about a boogeyman who
lives in the Dreams of children who live on Elm Street, USA. The
acting is not the world's best (to understate things), but the
Boogeyman himself is excellent, as are many of the dream sequences.
The first movie dances on the border of hallucination; even as
things get weirder, the possibility exists that all the events of
the film are hallucinations. The sequel mostly abandons this
question, since the awful second film (which the writer of I and III
has actively disavowed) seems to have taken all the ambiguity away.
Anyway, they aren't _Blade Runner_, but they're quite good.

_Peggy Sue Got Married_ is a Magical Realist film (a term the
mainstream uses to desribe stories in which impossible things happen
in the mimetic world, especially used in reference to works that are
good enough that the mainstream critics don't want to admit to the
F&SF nature of the works) about a woman who passes out at her high
school reunion and finds herself back in 1957.  The film is quiet,
kind, thoughful, and funny. Highly recommended.

Has anyone noticed the severe paucity of good Fantasy film? I don't
personally like the MGM _Wizard of Oz_ (and have yet to see _Return
to Oz) although I love the novels. _Tron_ is fairly good if viewed
as Fantasy instead of SF (with MCP being a Dark Sorcerer, Flynn a
divine being, etc...), and I've been told that _Krull_ can be
enjoyed the same way. _Wizards_ was so-so, I've never seen _Fire and
Ice_, and so forth and so on... Of course, the _Elm Street_ films
are really F, not SF. How about good non-horror Fantasy film,
especially High Fantasy?

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 May 87 1330-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 May 87 1330-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 202

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 11:53:45 PDT
From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane)
Subject: Re: Sources (RAH)..., and a minor mystery....

Somewhere buried in the debris, I've got a `Heinlein bibliography'
that I picked up at a con years ago (Rivercon '78???).  I recall
having bought one of the last copies that they had, and I've never
seen one since.

While checking through the biblio (years ago) I found a RAH novel
that I had never read, and in fact had never made it into PB or HB
publication.  I don't recall the title, but it was one of his
serialized novels published in _Boy's Life_ back in the early '50s.
No, not _Space Cadet_ or one of those, they were all accounted for.
Does anyone happen to know anything about this?

Chuck Lane
cel@cithex.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 04:35:27 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Heinlein news.

While the subject of Robert Heinlein is current here, I'd like to
make a few more general comments.

I am a devoted fan of Robert Heinlein and his literature and I think
that history will rank him with some of the better American writers.
Many of you probably agree.  In particular, I'm very grateful to him
for writing about the kinds of moral issues and ideas that he did,
because they formed my youthful ideas about how a man should act,
and treat others, and value things and events in his life.My parents
had no values to pass on to me, to speak of, and I wasn't raised in
a church.  In California there are no real neighborhoods that pass
on cultural values like the ones in the Midwest and on the East
Coast.  To some extent, I was raised by Heinlein's books, and I'm
very thankful for his attention to values.

If you are interested in looking them over, the University of
California at Santa Cruz has, in its Special Collections, Robert
Heinlein's manuscripts and many of his personal papers,
correspondence, letters, and trivia.  You can go there, and as I
did, read an early draft of Stranger in a Strange Land - almost a
religious experience for me, a child of the '60's.

Mr. Heinlein lives in this area and a friend of mine has had some
communication with his wife, Virginia, recently.  As you probably
know, he was suffering from a degenerative bloodflow problem that
was cutting off blood to his brain.  This was repaired, but
apparently there has been irreparable damage.  Furthermore, he only
has a fraction of normal lung function.  Virginia has been handling
his business affairs for many years, and has done a heroic job in
supporting his writing.  Judge not his new books too harshly; they
are written under harrowing constraints.  His latest novel should
come out in June or July.  I suspect that it will be his last.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 20:29:26 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>Heinlein's credentuals as an libertarian have always been suspect
>in my mind.  Any decent libertarian theorist (an even most
>anarchists) make provisions for protection of weak from strong.
>Heinlein's views have a bit too much of the feudal in them and rely
>on the idea that the good are going to be strong enough to quash
>the bullies.

I don't think Heinlein is a libertarian either. I've noticed that
his stories almost always have a strong government and a strong
militaristic streak in said government which is *advocated* by the
protagonist, or is the actual government that sends the protagonist
on his/her elitist mission.
  Also, take a long hard look at the way Heinlein portrays women in
most of his works: even though they may ostensibly be in control of
a lot of things (_Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is a good example of a
society where women *supposedly* dominate), in reality they are
*nothing* more than pretty faces and sexual objects. To stay on the
subject of _Moon_, notice that whenever any *real*
political/governmental power is involved, *men are the bosses.* The
women "know when to keep their pretty mouths shut," as Manuel says
at one point (to put it into the plural -- I know it was about a
specific person. No -- I don't remember which one, but I'll try to
find the quote if people *demand* it.).

> Still, I don't agree with the idea that Heinlein has no right to
>express these views.  Also, this is science fiction, and Heinlein
>could claim that this is just a story, not a blueprint for mankind.
>After all, there are ideas in "Starship Troopers" that seem to
>contradict this kind of anarchy.  There is also the valid question
>as to how much brutality by individuals in Heinlein's world it
>takes to outweight the massive institutional brutality of the kind
>generated by almost all governments in this world.  Just how
>"civilized" is nuclear war?

I never would deny Heinlein or anyone the right to express their
views, whatever they may be. The "Essay" just questions the validity
of the views he trys to portray in one novel. He *does* seem to
contradict himself more in that book than in others.
  As I said before, though, in real life, Heinlein *did* advocate
the continuation of the Vietnam War, taking out full page
advertisements in various important magazines (newspapers? I don't
remember which). This is about as militaristic and interventionist
as you can get as a private citizen, short of becoming a soldier of
fortune and trotting down to Nicaragua for some "action." This leads
me to believe that when he portrays a protagonist who advocates a
militaristic, interventionist government that quashes individual
liberties (which the Prof in _Moon_ actually set up, regardless of
what he kept *saying*), Heinlein is expounding on his own real world
values. He's an elitist at heart!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 20:40:16 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

snuggle@rpiacm.UUCP (Chris Andersen) writes:
> But, as to the conclusion of this otherwise good essay: it is said
> that Heinlein's message is one of anarchy, that he is urging us to
> defy authority.  However, as this essay correctly points out, his
> "message" is self-contradicing.Therefore, the reader cannot look
> up to Heinlein as an authority...and that's exactly what the
> "message" urges us to do: DEFY AUTHORITY.  In other words, in a
> very brilliant piece of fiction Heinlein has not only lain down
> the basics of anarchistic principles, he has also succeeded in
> destroying that one aspect of those principles which could be it's
> ultimate defeat: the supposed AUTHORITY of it's author.  By
> destroying his own credibility, Heinlein actually realizes in full
> his "message" of anarchy.  Authority CANNOT be trusted, not even
> the author of the "message" 'Authority CANNOT be trusted'!

This, I would venture, is the best counter argument so far to the
essay about _Moon_ I posted a while back.
  I applaud you, Chris. This self-negation could possibly be part of
the message of the book. I kind of wonder though -- Heinlein is
usually very straightforward when it comes to "The Moral of the
Story."
  Anyway, a worthwhile addition to the discussion.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 02:16:07 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay

sprankle@kodak.UUCP (Daniel R. Lance) writes:
>Two of Heinlein's more recent novels -- *Friday* and *The Cat Who
>Walks Through Walls* contain characters which are very much
>*against* a rigid, elitist, intervening government (Friday and
>Colin Campbell/Richard Ames/etc.)

I haven't read _Friday_ in a long time, but wasn't
Friday-the-main-character a James Bond type agent of some or other
powerful intervening government?  Didn't they put her to sleep and
perform various operations on her (like to give her secret body
compartments where she could carry top secret government
information) and not even tell her exactly what they did to her, so
that she is continually finding out that what they said they did to
her is not what they *really* did to her?
  Isn't that about as interventionist-in-personal-freedoms as a
government can get?
  I truly can't remember, but I get the impression that maybe it
wasn't a government, but an *individual* that was her "employer." In
fact, as I think about it, that's what I seem to remember -- the
richer-than-anyone-could-ever- imagine type of character that
Heinlein seems so fond of: they type of character who is *so
powerful and elite that he can buy off the whole government* so that
it will allow him to *have his own little private tyranny*
somewhere.
  This may be even *worse* then the interventionist government!
(Note -- even in _Stranger in a Strange Land_ we get this type of
character (Jubal Harshaw or some name like that?)). In fact, you can
probably find a main protagonist in just about *every* Heinlein book
who is a flaming elitist!  This pattern cannot be ignored! It most
definitely says something about Heinlein. (Even in that old book of
his, _Waldo and Magic, Inc._ that I have lying around, (which I
haven't read yet -- sorry), the cover summaries imply that it deals
with one single guy who "owns" Earth! The cover blurb sure makes it
sound like this guy is going to be the protagonist, though by now,
this should not surprise people too much.)
  So for those of you who like to look for subtle underlying
messages in Heinlein's works, don't forget to consider the subtle
message that having the main protagonist in just about every book he
has written be some kind of elitist *has* to deliver. Personally, I
don't think this message is even all that subtle.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 02:31:29 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>>Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from his comrades,
>>he is acting contrary to their interests!
>
>De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for
>their own good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at
>least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people
>to do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral.

>Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined?

I agree that this is a contradiction. I think, though, that the Prof
thinks of absolutely no one but himself, and is totally amoral. But
wait -- if he thinks only of himself, and he's really old and gonna
die soon anyway, why does he bother to try to pull the revolution
off in the first place?
  If the Prof really thinks only of himself, he *is* amoral (and
therefore not someone you should look up to), and doesn't *care* one
bit that he is conning the Loonies. He is just (now don't miss this
one...) *an incurable elitist!*
  If, on the other hand, the Prof is doing this for the Loonies' own
good, then he is really *not* a libertarian at all, but a
holier-than-thou conservative type who likes to force people to do
things "for their own good."
  The Prof's character, in my opinion, is *loaded* with
contradictions. I think he is an elitist, not a libertarian. I don't
think he feels morally obliged to do anything for anyone but
himself. Maybe this is one of the things the "Essay" was trying to
point out -- the Prof is *not* a libertarian.  No matter *what* he
keeps *claiming* to be.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 16:35:44 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>I never would deny Heinlein or anyone the right to express their
>views, whatever they may be. The "Essay" just questions the
>validity of the views he trys to portray in one novel. He *does*
>seem to contradict himself more in that book than in others.

Sorry, but the "essay" said:

" While Heinlein may not like the imposing governments of Earth
(after which planet Moon's Terra is modeled), this does not make
them any less civilized, nor does it give him the right to proclaim
his fictitious Lunar anarchy, which is literally a study in
barbarism, to be a civilized ideal."

I don't agree with Heinlein on a lot of things, but I have learned a
lot from him and feel that he is a very important social critic
mainly through his influence on young intelligensia in the sciences
and technical fields.  There is much of the vigilante in his works,
usually dealing with crisis situations (you didn't mention The
Puppet Masters, where those who failed to go naked were shot on
sight as possibly concealing the alien slug controllers under their
clothing).  While wanting to uphold the rule of law, I myself feel
less threatened by vigilantes than by the police state, and thus
come down on the side of those who support the people's right to
keep and bear arms to facilitate possible revolt against oppression
or at least keep potential dictators looking over their shoulder.  I
suspect many of those who hate Heinlein would actually prefer the
kinds of dictatorship depicted by Heinlein and others (Orwell?) to a
period of anarchy, where Heinlein and his followers could well
prefer Gotterdammerung to that.  (The old better red than dead
argument).  Those interested in anarchy will find interesting
contrasts between LeGuin's The Dispossessed (communitarian anarchy)
and Heinlein's rugged brand of feudal anarchy.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 18:39:41 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for
>>their own good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at
>>least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people
>>to do this or that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral.
>>Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined?
>
>I agree that this is a contradiction. I think, though, that the Prof
>thinks of absolutely no one but himself, and is totally amoral. But
>wait -- if he thinks only of himself, and he's really old and gonna
>die soon anyway, why does he bother to try to pull the revolution off
>in the first place?

Why do you think that people value their lives less as they get
older?  It is not the number of years you get that counts, but how
you live the ones you've got.

>  If, on the other hand, the Prof is doing this for the Loonies'
>own good, then he is really *not* a libertarian at all, but a
>holier-than-thou conservative type who likes to force people to do
>things "for their own good."

Wow.  Have you ever bought into the stereotype of conservatism.

>  The Prof's character, in my opinion, is *loaded* with
>contradictions. I think he is an elitist, not a libertarian. I
>don't think he feels morally obliged to do anything for anyone but
>himself. Maybe this is one of the things the "Essay" was trying to
>point out -- the Prof is *not* a libertarian.  No matter *what* he
>keeps *claiming* to be.

Sounds to me as if you don't know very many libertarians, either.  I
know enough of them that would insist that noone should feel
obligated to do anything for anyone but himself.  Even if this
characterisation of the Prof was correct he would fit right in.  You
can't have it both ways -- characterising the conservatives by those
characteristics you dislike and the libertarians by those
characteristics that you like, and ignoring the contradictions and
disagreements whichlie within any political coalition.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 203

Today's Topics:

              Books - Brust & Cherryh & Susan Cooper &
                      Lewis (2 msgs) & Lloyd & MacAvoy &
                      Nourse (3 msgs) & Panshin &
                      Spider Robinson & Silverberg (2 msgs) &
                      Cyberpunk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 87 14:27:35 EDT
From: <kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Brust

SQCR6W@IRISHMVS writes:
>  In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single posting
>about _To Reign in Hell_.  Did no one else read this book, or if
>someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very good
>book?  I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more than I
>did _Brokedown Palace_.

Yes, I agree. I've read everything out so far and _To Reign in Hell_
has been my favorite to date.  I have no deep critical justification
for this, and don't intend to flame on it for any great length of
time; However I did enjoy it alot.  I guess I have to agree with
Zelazny and his review given in the intro: something to the effect
of being halfway there, and thinking "it's been done a million times
already, he'll never pull it off. And then he does pull it off."
Very well, in fact.

Karl DeBisschop
kdebiss@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 16:56:32 GMT
From: aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Pell?

   Some weeks ago somebody kindly posted C. J. Cherryh's future
chronology.  I have heard many references to Pell there and other
places but don't remember much about it in any of her books.  Does
she have a book or short story that talks about Pell?  Pell is the
first encounter with another sentient race?  Have I missed an
important event in the future?  Oh darn!  I will have been late
again!

Thanks,
Allan

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 18:12:43 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: The Throne of Scone

Oops.  Book 1 of the Keltiad is "The Silver Branch", not "The Silver
Tree".  Blame it on Susan Cooper.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 87 09:56:42 -0800
From: obrien@aero2.aero.org
Subject: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory

   I feel I must warn those who have not yet read the Narnian
Chronicles.  Yes, they are some of the best fantasy ever written,
and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except for the
last volume.  "The Last Battle" is one of the most heavy-handed
pieces of Christian allegory it's ever been my misfortune to read.
Unless you are a born-again Christian (and maybe even if you are)
this is one to avoid.  It almost spoiled the whole series for me.  I
still reread the other volumes with pleasure, but the magic breaks
down badly in this little number.  True, the other volumes are also
allegorical, but they stand on their own.  This one doesn't.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 87 00:10 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Narnia and others...

I noticed the recent C.S. Lewis discussion, and although it will
probably take weeks before I see this posted, I thought I'd put in
my 2 cents.

Narnia is, bar NONE, my favorite work of modern fantasy.  It
surpasses all of the second generation Tolkien rip-offs, and indeed
Tolkien itself.  And I like Tolkien.  The fact remains that no other
fantasy writer had or has C.S. Lewis's, how can I say it any other
way, 'way with words'.  Within the series, we are treated to
recognizable fantasy, with all of its attendant swords and sorcery
and the like.  It clearly emerges from the same tradition as
Tolkien, which makes sense, since they were contemporaries, more on
that later.  One of my main dificulties in dealing with fantasy
'Post Tolkien' is that Tolkien had a sense for where his mythology
was coming from, and my sense is that writers who were inspired by
Tolkien , or inspired by people inspired by Tolkien somehow tend to
remove more and more purity from the original.  Not so with Narnia.
Another of Narnia's many attractions is C.S. Lewis's stunningly
evocative prose.  There is no way one cannot want to be in Narnia.
Consider the beauty and simplicity of the scenes describing Narnia's
creation in 'The Magician's Nephew' and the initial realization that
the whole of narnia is Aslan's song.  Consider the utter evil that
is encountered in 'The Last Battle' where we first encounter Tash.
This isn't just good genre fiction, this is good writing by any
standard.

The same is true of 'The Space Trilogy' also by Lewis ('Out of the
Silent Planet', 'Perelandra', and 'That Hideous Strength').  The
descriptions of Malacandra and Perelandra are some of the only truly
alien descriptions of planets I have ever encountered in Science
Fiction, the reader has a sense of worlds entirely different from
ours.  The religious overtones in The trilogy are a little more
heavy-handed, such as the hero Ransom (who is a philologist
allegedly based on Tolkien) wondering whether he should try to
convert the aliens to Christianity.

Any fantasy or SF fan who does not experience the pleasure of these
works is neglecting one of the absolute best examples of the form in
the English language.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:15 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Book request

   I am interested in tracking down a book I read many years ago,
but can no longer find.  The book is _The Further Adventures of
Captain Gregory Dangerfield_, by Jeremy Lloyd.  If you've seen it,
you'd remember it.
   I think the book was published in the UK, but I'm not sure.  No
book search service here in Virginia has been able to trace a copy
down.  If you know where one can be had, or know of other books by
this author, please send me a line.

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 10:33 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: The Grey Horse

   I, too, enjoyed MacAvoy's latest.  When I got to the scene
depicted by the cover art, it took my breath away! I was
disappointed that it couldn't be a series of panels, as in a graphic
novel.
   (Digression)
   I had enjoyed Twisting the Rope because I'm involved in folk
music (Calendar editor for the Caltech Folk Music Society's
newlsetter), and it sure was nice finding out what Triona ni
Dhomnhaill (I think I've got the h's right) was singing about (the
song can be found on one of the Bothy Band's albums, but I've
forgotten which). While it didn't hold me in the way I expected for
a sequel to Tea with the Black Dragon, there were parts that kept me
riveted to find out what happened next. I'm noticing that each of
her books has its own mood, and just because some characters are
shared from one to the other, doesn't mean the mood/aura will.
Mostly that's ok...
   (End digression)
   I had a good time with this book. Since I happen to read a fair
amount of historical fiction, and a fair amount of fantasy, I
appreciate an author combining the two genres well. Ruari macEibher
(sp?) is one neat character, and I would like to know more about his
doings before the story. Then again, Maire Standuin was not so bland
herself, and I'd enjoy a good chat with her. *I* should be so strong
in my self and in my differences!...don'tIwish....
   BTW, if you're a parent with a kid who reads little other than
horse stories, TGH ought to be given to that child.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 87 13:46:21 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: juvenile SD -- NOURSE

From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
>A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The Universe
>Between" by somebody or other....

_The Universe Between_ is be Alan E. Nourse, one of my favorite
authors when I was in my teens.

Some of his other books:

_Raiders From the Rings_    (yea!)
_The Mercy Men_
_Psi High and Other Stories_
_Trouble on Titan_
_Star Surgeon_
_Bladerunner_ (no relation, except the name)

Several of Nourse's works are set in the "Hospital Earth" universe,
wherein Earth is one of the few planets which has thought of
medecine and medicine is our ticket into the galactic community.  As
you guessed, he is a doctor.

Does anybody know the name of a Nourse book about two brothers,
initially estranged, who end up somehow in the asteroid belt,
running around in the air corridors of some kind of enemy ship?  (I
think there is some sort of alien mcguffin that they are supposed to
have or to have stolen that sets everything off).  I'd like to find
this one again.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 13:19:34 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: juvenile SF (THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN)

From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
> A favorite of mine, besides the Heinlein juvvies, was "The
> Universe Between" by somebody or othe; the name that springs to
> mind is Andre Norton, but that is wrong.  It's doctor something...

It's by Alan Nourse (which is why Andre Norton sticks in your mind
--- same initials), and it is supposed to be just recently reprinted
by Ace Books.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 03:38:26 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Universe Between

Another Alan E. Nourse book that was recenlty reissued in paperback
is "Scavengers in Space". Unfortunately all I can say without giving
away major plot points is that it involves the sons of an asteriod
miner vs one of the big mining companies. This doesn't do justice to
it. It has a *lot* of plot twists.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 23:54:33 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!cswolfe@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael Wolfe)
Subject: A. Villers

In the late 60's(?) A. Panshin started writing a series about a
character called Anthony Villers, a Viscount in a somewhat decadent
interstellar empire.  I managed to find 3 volumes in a series.  In
the third volume: 1) Villers(sp?) learns that his younger brother is
trying to kill him to inherit his title; and 2) a fourth volume is
promised in the back of the book.

Does anyone on this net know if the fourth volume ever came out?
Please Reply via email.  I have been curious for 20 years now.

Michael Wolfe
Department of Information Science and Center For Cybernetic Studies
University Of Texas
Austin, Texas 78712
Phone: 512-471-5258 (Work)
       512-451-7035 (Home)

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 13:52:57 GMT
From: ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing

Apparently Robinson's _Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_ and _Callahan's
Secret_ have just been re-released by Berkley books.  I believe they
were out of print for a number of years.  I've read about half of
each so far and recommend them.

They are a series of stories with the sole goal of making you feel
good about life again.  They take place in a small bar.  People with
problems come into the bar to talk about them and discover that
others care.  Of course a few of the people are aliens since the
stories were published as SF/F.

The stories seem to get depressing if taken in large doses.  But a
few at a time, they are very uplifting.

Anne

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 14:32:52 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus)

Silverberg's Dying Inside is one of my five favorite books.  When I
first read it, I was very impressed by the author's control of his
characters and the pathos he evoked. This book is generally
considered to be one of Silverberg's finest works.

I once was going to a con in L.A. We were aboard an airport bus,
going to the con-hotel. Also on the bus were some other
rag-tag-looking people. One of them looked strangely familiar, a man
with a goatee, but who was wearing a name-plate of "Fred" or "Jack".
Growing more suspicious, I queried the fellow and eventually learned
he was, indeed, Bob Silverberg, traveling incognito.

Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:29:02 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Dying Inside" (was Voyage To Arcturus)

cracraft@ccicpg.UUCP (Stuart Cracraft) writes:
>Silverberg's Dying Inside is one of my five favorite books.  When I
>first read it, I was very impressed by the author's control of his
>characters and the pathos he evoked. This book is generally
>considered to be one of Silverberg's finest works.

As a side note, both Brian Aldiss (author and critic for SF, in his
"Trillion Year Spree") and Gardner Dozios (editor of IASFM and
author/editor, in the upcoming "Best SF of the Year, Volume 4") both
mention that they think that "Dying Inside" is not just one of
Silverbob's best books, but one of the best books published in the
1970's.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 11:10:55 GMT
From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson)
Subject: Cyberpunk... some more!

I have seen recent postings that have been asking "What is Cyberpunk?"

Well, here is my two pennorth...

I consider Cyberpunk to be nothing new, authors such as William
Gibson, Bruce Sterling and Walter Jon Williams are only writing what
Alfred Bester, Samuel Delany et al have been writing for years!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising cyberpunk - I'm one of its
biggest fans... _The Mona Lisa Overdrive_ on order (only a month to
go!), _Hard Wired_ read before it even got out in the US (British
import shops are dead good!)

Consider Alfred Bester's novels, _Golem 100_,_Extro_ (aka _The
Computer Connection_),_The Demolished Man_ and _Tiger! Tiger!_. If
he had written these in the last three years (especially _Golem 100_
and _Extro_), publishers would have marketed them as Cyberpunk, with
nice little quotes from Sterling or Gibson on the covers. In fact
Gibsons "Sprawl" is swipped right out of those two books!

The characterisation of Cyberpunk tends more in the direction of
Samuel Delany, in that the protaganists are streetwise young
outcasts. The fact that Delany's are poets and artists rather than
Gibson's and William's technophiles lies in the fact that the
"pulse" of the 60's and early 70's was "arty", whilst the late 70's
and 80's are the age of the "techie".

Cyberpunk can be seen as the fusion of 60's and 70's lifestyle SF
(as typified by Delany and Dick) with "hard" SF - in the case of
Cyberpunk, the main theme being that current buzzword... Information
Technology.

Just like nuclear fusion, a lot of light and heat is given out, with
something more than the elements that went in coming out (grotty
physics, nice image :-) ) Wait for the hype to die down... (the Spin
article was OK, but inadequate & inaccurate!) ...then see what's
left. I certainly am looking forward to it!

But what is Cyberpunk? ..... obviously, MIRRORSHADES! :-)

By the way has anyone seen that Cyberpunk ideas are appearing in
maistream SF?  I've seen bits in _Sun's End_ and _Lifeburst_! (_The
Cool War_ is a bit early for that, but...)

There are even Cyberpunky ( :-) ) adverts on the TV here, with
rather _Blade Runner_ or original _Max Headroom_ ish backdrops,
specifically those put out by Barclays Bank.

Simon Bisson
ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 204

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Conventions (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 21:07:27 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Boskone, yet once again

>Anyway, about Boskone, I can't see why they don't make it
>first-come first-served. It would be easier to manager, rather than
>trying to figure out whether this guy had gone to 3 of the last 5,
>or maybe only 2 of the last 5 but 3 of the last 6 and he was
>pre-registered, and so on.

A first come, first serve policy would be much simpler than the
proposed policy for Boskone 25 *IF* reducing the size of the con was
the only criterion. IN ADDITION, Nesfa also wants to keep out the
hooligans that made so much trouble at Boskone 24. First come, first
served does not handle this problem. The proposed eligibility rules
are an attempt to address this problem.

Danny Low

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 09:09 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Arrrgh!  Not another Boskone (Borekone?) posting!?!
Cc: LAMONTS%SDS.SDSCNET@nmfecc.arpa

>"Implicit in Ms Green's comment is the assertion that _only_ those
>who run the con are allowed to make suggestions on how the con is
>run.  By extension, only those running the government should be
>allowed to make suggestions on how the government should be run.
>Hmmm...  I guess we can just chuck those first ten amendments to
>the Constitution and scratch the first Tuesday following the first
>Monday in November off the calendar, since we don't need to hear
>from the rabble.

I find this analogy ridiculous.  Governments, after all, have the
legal monopoly of physical force--they "represent" us and have power
over us whether we want them to or not, whether we vote or not.  If
you don't like what a ConCom is doing, you can avoid their con.  Or
not attend any cons.  Try doing that with a government.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 06:43:02 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Boskone XXV Info from INSTANT MESSAGE

trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) writes:
>It would seem that you did not cause trouble, based on what you
>say.  I don't disagree, but I am thinking of the legal
>ramifications of being responsible for minors.  Who is if they have
>no legal guardian at the con?  NESFA?  If so, why should they be
>the ones held accountable?  I just think that it would be better
>for the hotel if NESFA could guarantee this.

Good point.  However, I'm not sure that it isn't the "under 16"s
that need legal guardians.  Does anyone know the exact law, in this
case?  (I know, for example, that there was absolutely no problem
with me travelling to Baltimore alone.  I called up some ministry,
that directed me to another thatdirectedmetoanother... and whoever
it was that I finally spoke to said "no problem".  I was fifteen,
and I didn't even need a note for the border people.)

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 20:04:25 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Boskone Redux

From:   lll-crg!tyg     (Tom Galloway)
> 3) The number and variety of open parties has been increasing over
> the years. I don't think there's another con in the country that
> has had the type of parties that Boxboro Fandom has thrown over
> the years.  Themes, good food, good organization, 1500 bodies in a
> hotel room :-).  RPI has been throwing a chocolate party the last
> few years. Etc.

Boskone as a party con? The mind boggles. Try going to a Minicon
some time. The difference is marked. At Boskone, the Con Suite
basicly exists for those people who don't have any other party to
go to. Every time I've ever dropped into the Boskone Con Suite,
I've never seen anyone I've ever heard of. At Minicon, the Con
Suite is *the* place to be every night of the con! Just about
everyone who attends the con makes it to the Con Suite at least
once during the weekend. Very few other parties take place (except
small, specialized ones, such as, say, a poker-playing party).
At the current Minicon hotel (and one of the previous ones as
well), the Con Suite takes up the entire top floor of the hotel.

> 6) Boskone is held roughly midway between two year's Worldcon.
> It's gotten the rep as the "Winter Worldcon". I've *known* that
> I'll see just about all my East Coast fan friends there. Couldn't
> say that about any other con.

Well, how about Balticon? I've never gone myself, but it seems to be
large enough that a good number of East Coast fans are there.  Also,
I can just as easily say, "I've *known* that I'll see just about all
my Mid-West fan friends at Minicon. Couldn't say that about any
other con." What does that prove, except that you go to Boskone to
meet your friends and I go to Minicon to meet mine?

> So, Mike, what are the other cons you've been to that were more
> fun for you...

Well, Minicon is definitely my favorite convention. Most of my very
favorite fan friends are there, there's great music being played in
the Con Suite, lots of good restaurants in the Twin Cities, and so
on. No, the programming doesn't always run on time, but so what? I
hardly ever attend programming (the only program item I attended at
this last one was the one I was on).

Come to think of it, just about *every* other con I've been to was
as least as much, if not more, fun than any Boskone I've ever
attended. Other than Boskone 15 (1978), when a bunch of Minneapolis
friends attended, I can't recall that I've actually *enjoyed* a
Boskone since the early 70's. One year, I went to a Midwestcon. I
probably knew less than a dozen people there, and yet I had a great
time.

> ...And out of curiosity, other than Worldcons, what cons were you
> thinking of that were larger than recent Boskones?

I'm not positive, but aren't Westercons still larger than Boskone?
Granted that Boskone is still at least second place, if so.
Whatever, I don't exactly consider this a selling point. I prefer
smaller cons: they are much more relaxed, and I have a greater
chance of actually meeting up with people I want to talk to. There
are people that I know were at Boskone that I never saw (and would
have liked to).  Aside from Minicon (which is starting to stretch
the limit at 2000 people), my favorite regular con is Pulpcon, which
usually has on the order of 150-200 people. Much easier to get to
know folks better and have nice talks with everyone (the only
problem is that there are very few women in pulp fandom :-)).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 17:44:49 GMT
From: galloway@vaxa.isi.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: CruiseCon

Well, I've got a definite problem with the idea of a CruiseCon,
particularly for a Worldcon; it does a really nice job of
discriminating against people like me who are quite prone to motion
sickness/sea sickness. And yes, I've tried the nitro patches the one
time I got dragged onto a cruise, but they still left me groggy and
unable to really even read (we're talking a good approximation of my
personal Hell here...).

Anyway, the tax disadvantages that have been mentioned are basically
that the IRS looks *very* closely at anyone who tries to deduct the
cost of a cruise, and I believe a recent ruling may have made it
almost impossible to do so.  This causes certain problems. Did you
know that any pro (writer, artist, editor, publisher, etc.) can and
does deduct all of their expenses of getting to, staying at, and
eating at a con as an expense of doing business? Did you know that
if you put in enough work on a con to distinguish it from being a
vacation, you can deduct your expenses if the sponsoring
organization of the con is a 501c3 tax-exempt literary organization,
which makes your expenses for volunteering a charitable deduction?
Having a con on a cruise ship would quite probably rule out these
deductions, making it particularly difficult to get professional
guests (normally only the guest(s) of honor at a con have their
expenses paid for by the con; all the other pros are there at their
own expense {this doesn't count commerical media cons where the
"guests" are getting paid real money to show up}).

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 87 08:05 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: CruiseCon

There are several Star Trek Cruise Cons planned (one from FL, one
from CA) with lots of ST stars and such.  I can't recall the dates,
and haven't heard anything on them recently, so I don't know what
stage their in.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 87 17:03:18 ast
From: nico@OLDBORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Nico)
Subject: conventions/guardians

Waivers of responsibility have been used by different groups before.
Notably at the Pennsic War, they are required of anyone under 18 AND
someone has to be responsible for you at the war.  Since this event
is about 4000 people, it's a good example of lots of rowdy, lively
people, and it seems to work. *BUT* It's 20 miles from town, it does
not advertise, people who screw up KNOW someone will take a sword to
their head, and there is a standing infrastructure of security,
medical, and emergency personnel and resources. Boskone, partly
because of legal paranoia and partly due to lack of resources
refuses to even attempt this. They also must share their hotel space
with other people, while the Pennsic campsite is utterly devoured by
the event. Mundanes don't freak out because there are no mundanes.
There are also no walls to paint, no public furniture to steal, and
everyone is polite because they go home and meet many of these
people at other events.

Boskone can either ignore their problems, (notice the resulting lack
of hotel space), start addressing them before they get out of hand
(too late), or do major changes in the structure of the con
immediately. THEY DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE. 2000 people will be
screwed this year. Boskone's regulations now at least throw out the
chaff, some of the wheat has to go with it or the whole batch will
rot. I haven't seen or heard equally practical/ effective methods
from anyone else and I don't think there are any.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 87  00:34:29 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Minors at conventions.

  Not to sound stuffy or anything, but:

  Has anyone considered the fact that in general this society does
not encourage teenagers to run around without adult supervision for
long periods of time? One might expect that a weekend-long
convention might fall into this category. Far from being obliged to
allow teenagers to continue to attend Boskone in an unrestricted,
unsupervised manner, NESFA might be found liable for not providing
supervision, release forms or not.  In any event, perhaps the
release form idea is slanted a bit wrong? Why not compel parents of
minors who wish to attend conventions to sign a form reading
something like this:

  "In the event that your child causes any damage to person or
property, owned by the hotel, (insert concom of your choice), or
convention attendee, you hereby agree to assume all costs,
compensatory and/or punitive, required to compensate for your
child's actions. Further, you agree to waive all rights to
countersue the hotel, (concom), or convention attendee in any such
circumstance."

  Concoms have enough problems with handling a convention without
saddling them with being _in loco parentis_ as well. People might
not like that attitude, but that's the way this society normally is
about such things.  If anyone would like to refute, feel free. I
would be interested to hear of any other mass activity in which not
only can adolescents can run about unsupervised for days, but people
get mad when you suggest that such supervision could be called for.

Robert G. Traynor
UMass-Boston

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 07:59:32 GMT
From: harvard!hscfvax!spem@RUTGERS.EDU (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Re: Boskone Redux (looking for comments)

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>[...]  No, the programming doesn't always run on time, but so what?
>I hardly ever attend programming (the only program item I attended
>at this last one was the one I was on).

Just looking for comments here... I've been to 4 Boskones myself,
now, plus some Genericons and LASTCons...

Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no
programming?  (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went
to... but I got curious this year.)  Do people think it's "good" not
to attend programming?

Again, comments, please, not flamage...

Gregory T. Samson
gts@hscfvax.HARVARD.EDU
gts@oberon.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 15:46:27 GMT
From: beal@puff.wisc.edu (Roberta Beal)
Subject: programming at cons

spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes:
>Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no
>programming?  (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went
>to... but I got curious this year.)  Do people think it's "good"
>not to attend program- ming?

I almost never attend programming.  In fact, my favorite convention
- Midwestcon - doesn't have any programming at all.

I've noticed something interesting about geography and programming.
Those people that go to conventions in the midwest tend to go to
less programming that those on the coasts.  Midwestern conventions -
in general - are more party oriented and less sercon.  Has anybody
else noticed this?

As an aside, I just celebrated my 7th year in fandom at Minicon this
month.

Robin Beal
University of Wisconsin - Madison

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 18:15:05 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: re: Boskone Redux

> I'm not positive, but aren't Westercons still larger than Boskone?

Westercons peaked out at under 2000 attendance. Around about the
time, Westercon peaked out is when Boskone attendance started to
rise dramatically. Most Westercons nowadays are about 1000-1500
people in attendance. I was on the concom of one of the larger
Westercons (~1500) when the trend was still going up and we were
worried at what could happen if the con got too big. From the
Boskone experience, it is a real good thing that Westercons did
peaked out without any major problems. I suspect holding several
Westercons in Phoenix in the middle of summer may have had something
to do with this. :-) :-) :-)

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 22:22:38 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!mirth@RUTGERS.EDU (The Reedmage)
Subject: con program attendance

spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes:
>Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no
>programming?  (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went
>to... but I got curious this year.)  Do people think it's "good"
>not to attend programming?

I don't know the general answer to your question.  I myself enjoy
the programming a great deal; I attend panels on subjects of
interest to me (albeit sitting near the door so I can leave without
disturbing people if such becomes necessary), the masquerade, and
the filking (all of which I lump in under "programming" -- they're
on the program, aren't they?  with times and room numbers and all?).
I don't go to a con just to dress wierd and buy things.  I can do
that at school.  (Reedies dress wierd, and Portland has lots to
buy).

I posted this instead of emailing because I myself have been curious
about the answers to this question and wanted to keep them public.
Did I err?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 0918-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 0918-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 205

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 29 Apr 87 23:28:17-PDT
From: Bob Pratt <P.PRATT@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Heinlein Criticisms

A very good defense of Heinlein from criticisms of this sort is
Spider Robinson's essay "Rah Rah R.A.H." , which is in Spider's book
'Time Travelers Strictly Cash'. The essay was originally used as his
GOH speech at Bosklone (sp) '80. It basically deals point by point
with almost any possible criticism of Heinlein's writing up thru
Expanded Universe.  I think it is probably the definitive defense of
Heinlein, so anyone who's been following this argument on the net
should read it, if they haven't already.  Also, the rest of the book
is also good. It has some Callahan's stories and a few other random
sort of things.

Bob
pratt@portia.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 23:57:41 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Sources (RAH)..., and a minor mystery....

cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu writes:
>While checking through the biblio (years ago) I found a RAH novel
>that I had never read, and in fact had never made it into PB or HB
>publication.  I don't recall the title, but it was one of his
>serialized novels published in _Boy's Life_ back in the early '50s.
> Does anyone happen to know anything about this?

I found part two of a three-part unreprinted Heinlein novel in a
back issue of BOY'S LIFE, and gave it to a friend who is a massive
Heinlein fan. Unfortunately, I'm no longer on speaking terms with
him and so can't get the date or title for you. I read it before I
gave it to him, though, and let me tell you, it deserved to remain
unreprinted.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 15:13:00 GMT
From: harvard!ima!inmet!janw@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress

In my opinion, it *is* systematic and well-documented - but is
systematically unfair in its critical methods.

Suppose I reviewed a star-travel novel in this way: "on page 1, a
hero speaks of star travel, which is impossible.  On page 10, the
author describes star travel, thus losing all credibility"... and so
on through the last page.

The criticism would be consistent and well-documented, but quite
unfair.  Substitute "civilized anarchy" for "star travel", and
that's what we have here.

It is also unfair in particulars.

Laura has already pointed out that Mannie's views are unfairly
ascribed to Heinlein.  But Mannie himself becomes a victim of
similar misattribution:

>At one point, Mannie suggests that people with bad breath or body
>odor deserve to breathe vacuum too ("...some pompous choom proposed
>that bad breath and body odors be made an elimination offense.
>Could almost sympathize..." (161)),

So, there's a person whom Mannie calls a pompous choom, and with
whose opinion he (facetiously) "could almost sympathize".

Nevertheless, his opinion is ascribed to Mannie.  A little later,
this jocular "proposal" is treated as a fact of life:

>Thus, on Luna [...] the death penalty may be enacted for halitosis
>[...]

and, of course, Heinlein's approval is taken for granted.

Now consider the main point of the essay:

>Luna's people are much happier in their freer exercise of will, and
>above all, Lunar society is virtually crimeless and extremely
>"polite." The book also urges the reader to reject authority.  By
>demonstrating that, in fact, it is Luna that has the barbaric
>society and Terra that is civilized, and that the book is filled
>with other ideological contradictions as well, I will show that
>Heinlein has managed to discredit himself and is not to be trusted
>as the authority on the worlds in his own novel.

The essayist, then, believes that anarchy==barbarism.  How does s/he
prove it?

>Lunar society is not ruled in a civil manner -- it is an anarchy.

Of course, an anarchy is not "ruled" at all, so the above is
trivially true. Is it not "civilized" because not "civil" in the
sense of having civil authorities?  That's begging the issue...  But
"civil" also means "polite"; and the reviewer admits that Lunar
people *are* extremely polite.

>Anarchy is the oldest and most primitive form human society can
>take, dating back to the emergence of the species.

That is quite unknown. But even if it were true, this would not
preclude its reappearance at higher stages of civilization.  E.g.,
democracy existed in many savage or barbarous groups; it gave way to
feudalism and other forms of government, then reappeared in modern
times.

In a similar way, anarchists (some of them very learned people)
expect anarchy to re-emerge in a highly developed society; some
non-anarchists (e.g. Marx) expect that, too.  Their political
theories may be quite wrong, but this can't be proved in one
back-handed sentence in an essay of literary criticism.

Even if they *are* wrong, Heinlein has every right, in a work of
fiction, to postulate they are right. It is far less bold than
postulating FTL or ESP or time travel.

[It is demonstrated by quotes that the polite ways of the Lunar
society and the absence of crime are bought at a price: there is an
instant deadly retaliation against those who violate established
norms - e.g. rapists.]

Is the price worth the gain? The essayist takes the negative view;
Heinlein, in a literary experiment, explores the positive.  This
disagreement is perfectly normal - the problem with the essay is
that it merely *proclaims* its view as if everyone had to agree
automatically; and that it denies Heinlein's right to experiment.

>This can hardly be called a civilized society by anyone but
>Heinlein's standards.

Would a dictionary standard do? I checked in AH : Luna passes
easily.

>The bureaucracies of Terra, even though filled with so called
>"yammerheads," are infinitely more suited to bringing justice and
>safety to the average citizen.

I found no argument in the essay to support this.

>While Heinlein may not like the imposing governments of Earth
>(after which planet Moon's Terra is modeled), this does not make
>them any less civilized, nor does it give him the right to proclaim
>his fictitious Lunar anarchy, which is literally a study in
>barbarism, to be a civilized ideal.

Proclamations matter little in a work of fiction.  Did he make Luna
attractive and Terra unattractive?  Then he has made his case, and
it is useless to complain.  Or did he make Luna less attractive than
Terra? Then he has made *your* case, and you have no complaint.

Or did he draw two more complex worlds, not reducible to simple
"better" and "worse" ? Or did he paint a blurry, fuzzy picture?
Then these are the issues to discuss.

Study in barbarism?  It is a study in *anarchy*.  In the
*essayist's* view, anarchy==barbarism. We already know that. It is a
possible political view. Heinlein explores the corollaries of
*another* view. It is his privilege as a writer of fiction.

>Here, Heinlein again leads himself down a path to his own
>destruction.  Possibly the most blatant message the book has for
>the reader is one of rejection of authority.

TRUE: this is its message - and its attraction. It is an anti-
authoritarian book and calling it "blatant" won't defuse it.
Western literature has been glorifying rebellion ever since Moses
defied the Pharaoh and Prometheus defied Zeus. Far from being a
writer's path to destruction, defiance of authority is a sure way to
the reader's heart.

>It is not enough that Heinlein himself, as the author of the book
>and therefore also its most prominent authority, tells the reader
>to reject authority (thereby creating a paradox), but he also
>portrays the other main characters of the book blindly accepting
>the authority of the professor, who spouts contradictions himself.

This is a sophistical word-game: moral or intellectual authority is
confused with physically coercive authority. People who reject the
latter are not bound to reject the former.

>There are many other examples of Prof handing out political
>theories about rational anarchy to the other characters ("'...the
>most basic human right, the right to bargain in a free
>marketplace.'" (24) "'...there are only two things to do with an
>enemy: Kill him. Or make a friend of him.'" (148) "'...government
>is a dangerous servant and a terrible master.'" (240)
>"'...sometimes I think that government is an inescapable disease of
>human beings.'"  (243)), and every time, the other characters and
>the reader are expected to accept them as infallible gospel.  The
>characters do accept everything Prof says without a second thought.
>Hopefully, the reader will not.

Even the Prof himself gives these aphorisms second thought:
"sometimes I think..."  (see above).  Having given them second
thought, I see some elements of truth in them. The essayist may
differ, s/he may believe that government is a *safe* servant and a
*mild* master. So what? Disagreement is the salt of life.  Does one
have to subscribe to the Greek theogony to enjoy Homer?

>(240) He even contemplates going out to the asteroids to try to
>regain his personal freedom (302). This reflects Heinlein's
>viewpoint that happiness has been lost because the anarchy has
>ended, but hopefully the reader will realize that the possibility
>of much greater happiness in the future has just been opened up.
>For once, people may not have to live in constant fear of their
>fellows.

Only of the authorities...
Again, it is established  that  the  reviewer's  political  views
differ  from  Mannie's... and this is all that is established.

>So in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlein, the author and
>therefore the authority, asks the reader to reject authority, a
>contradiction in itself.

Wunderbar! It has been proven that every non-contradictory book must
be in support of government! I never saw a more transparent sophism.
An "authority" may mean a reliable source of informa- tion.  It may
also mean someone who can draft, tax, or subpoena you. The two
meanings have nothing in common. An author is an authority on his
book: e.g. Lewis Carroll was an expert on Wonderland. What does
that have to do with accepting or rejecting governmental authority?

Jan Wasilewsky

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 01:01:52 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

I will just mention one thing: In the 3/4 of THE CAT WHO WALKS
THROUGH WALLS that was readable, Heinlein shows the future of the
Lunar society of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.  'Tain't utopia.  One
suspects that he knew what was going on...

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 00:23:29 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>  Also, take a long hard look at the way Heinlein portrays women in
>most of his works: even though they may ostensibly be in control of
>a lot of things (_Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is a good example of a
>society where women *supposedly* dominate), in reality they are
>*nothing* more than pretty faces and sexual objects.

Have you ever read anything by Heinlein?

If so, how did you manage to miss Edith and Hazel Stone from "The
Rolling Stones", Holly from "The Menace from Earth", the woman who
taught Joe in "Gulf", most of the women in "Tunnel in the Sky", and
the girl in "The Star Beast", to name a few?  None of these are
pretty faces and sex objects.

I agree that Heinlein protrays women in an unrealistic fashion.  His
women are often rational, intelligent, educated, brave, and
competent.  Very few real women have many of these qualities.  Very
few men have them, either.

Tim Smith
sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 02:05:09 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

I will try to be real concise: (I'm sorry -- I forgot your real
name. I'll have to refer to you as "The Cynic," or how about just
"TC," no offense intended.)

TC, it seemed to me that you really agreed with about half of
"Mark"'s essay without realizing it! Here's why:

You accuse Mark of insisting that the book's society is an anarchy,
but you go on to show that it is *really* a very rigid society.
Well, maybe I misread Mark's essay, but I was under the impression
that that was the point (one of them) that he was trying to make:
that no matter how *much* the characters claimed that they lived in
an anarchy, the fact is that they *don't.*

Even if that's not what Mark said, it is what *I* say, so we agree
on this point.

The part where you and Mark disagree is in whether or not the Lunar
society is barbaric or not. Mark says it is; you say it's just the
expected product of environment/living conditions that exist on the
Moon. *I* say that the both uv yuz correct (almost)! I think that
the Moon's society *is* the product of the crowded/tense/etc living
conditions, and that it is *also*, at the same time *very barbaric*.

Just because it arose naturally from the necessities in this case
does not exempt it from being barbaric. It's just that in this case,
a barbaric society has arisen to fit the necessities of life -- and
this is not something new in history. It's the way other barbaric
societies have evolved throughout history.

Another little point -- Mannie *does* continually complain that
Terra is soooo "barbaric" compared to Luna. Honest, he does! He even
specifically uses the word "barbaric" more than once. This is maybe
the point Mark was so intent on driving home: that the Moon's
society is really more barbaric than the Earth's (I agree that it
is), no matter *how* many times Mannie says that it is really the
*Moon* that is the less barbaric.

I don't think that you really disagree with Mark as much as you
think you do.  I read Mark's essay, then I read your reply, and I
kept thinking, "But TC, you *agree* with him and just don't realize
it! You and Mark only differ over a few points of semantics! What
friends you could be if only you'd realize you are on the same
side!"

This is not meant to anger you. I'm not trying to get you to scream
back, "NO NEVER NEVER I WOULD NEVER AGREE WITH MARK NEVER YOU ARE
ACCUSING ME FALSLY ETC ETC ETC!!!" This is what I see. Maybe this
problem can be reconciled.

BTW -- I really enjoyed reading your posting. It was one of the few
that came across as calmly objective, instead of frothing that Mark
had pissed on your favorite author.

Cheers!

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 17:09:11 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: definitive Robert Heinlein summary

Many years ago, Heinlein wrote some pretty decent juvenile science
fiction.  Years after that, he got serious and began writing pure
trash.

And I did it in less than 100K bytes...  Now can we talk about
something else?????

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.ray.com
{cbosgd,gatech,mirror,necntc,uiucdcs}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 18:27:34 GMT
From: ee163adl@sdcc18.ucsd.edu (Teh Hsieh)
Subject: HEINLEIN

I've been away from sci-fi for a while.  I've read up to
_The_Cat_Who_Walks_ Though_ Walls_, so did Heinlein publish anything
new after that?

I-Teh Hsieh
sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc18!ee163adl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 206

Today's Topics:

             Films - Terminator (8 msgs) & Barberella &
                     Time Bandits & Wizards (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 22:41:08 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

Many people have mentioned TERMINATOR in this discussion of good/bad
sf films. I haven't seen the movie, but want to bring up a point not
directly related to its quality...

It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to sue
the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they ripped
off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits episode. I
can not quote sources on this because my library is 3000 miles away;
I am not certain if he actually brought suit and won, or if they
settled with him out of court, but I am quite certain that it was
established that the story had been stolen from him.

I have, in one of my collections, both the original story and the
script for Outer Limits. I've wanted to see the movie for some time
in order to compare them, but I will not do it in such a way as to
support the people who stole another person's work (i.e. I wouldn't
see it in a theater and probably wouldn't rent it).

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 01:03:34 GMT
From: robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

While I cannot quote chapter-and-verse about the episodes and ideas
that _Terminator_ supposedly stole from, I can offer a few points of
argument.

Supposedly there were two _Outer_Limits_ episodes which _Terminator_
'stole' from; "Demon with a Glass Hand" and the 'soldier from the
future' episode (whose name escapes me).

The alleged theft from "Demon With A Glass Hand" seems to me very
tenuous.  There are more similaries with say, _Back_to_ the_Future_,
then _Terminator_.  The Soldier from the Future episode does have
quite a few similarities.

In the Outer Limits the hero is sent back in time accidentally, has
real problems adjusting to life here, and his nemisis is eventually
similarly sent back and a final clash occurs.  As I recall the hero
also falls in love with an Earth woman of the past, which is pat for
_Terminator_, and he communicates with cats (in _Terminator_ dogs
are used for terminator detectors).  Lastly, the first few minutes
of the Outer Limits episode and _Terminator_ are similar.

Given this, I would say that indeed, _Terminator_ borrowed heavily
from the nameless Outer Limits episode, and that a judgement against
Michael Cameron (dir. of _Terminator_) would be valid.  The
similarity to Demon with a Glass Hand however is more tenuous.

However! _Terminator_ is an excellent movie in its own right, based
solely on the acting, directing, and screenplay.  If it took ideas
from existing fiction, it also contributed to the existing pool, and
as such the director should not be lambasted.  It is well worth
viewing, and you're guilt can be assuaged due to the trailer on
tapes I've seen; "We gratefully acknowledge the contributions to
this story by Harlan Ellison", or some such.

Besides, if you refuse to contribute to Camerons coffers you will
have to miss the much-lauded _ALIENS_!!

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 04:21:49 GMT
From: cmcl2!lanl!hc!hi!vince@RUTGERS.EDU (Vince Murphy [Alien])
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

robert@sri-spam.UUCP (Robert Allen) writes:
>Supposedly there were two _Outer_Limits_ episodes which
>_Terminator_ 'stole' from; "Demon with a Glass Hand" and the
>'soldier from the future' episode (whose name escapes me).

   I think the story was called "The Soldier."  It, too, was written
by Harlan Ellison.  The episode starred Michael Ansara as a soldier
who is sent back in time and must deal with the situation.

>The alleged theft from "Demon With A Glass Hand" seems to me very
>tenuous.  There are more similaries with say, _Back_to_

   The scene which comes to my mind is when the Terminator peals off
the skin on his body - similar to the ideas in Demon With the Glass
Hand.

>the_Future_, then _Terminator_.  The Soldier from the Future
>episode does have quite a few similarities.  [Stuff deleted] Given
>this, I would say that indeed, _Terminator_ borrowed heavily from
>the nameless Outer Limits episode, and that a judgement against
>Michael Cameron (dir. of _Terminator_) would be valid.  The
>similarity to Demon with a Glass Hand however is more tenuous.

   I would say that Ellison probably does have a good case, on both
counts, as well.  People shouldn't mess with him - he knows what
he's doing.

>However! _Terminator_ is an excellent movie in its own right, based
>solely on the acting, directing, and screenplay.  If it took ideas
>from existing fiction, it also contributed to the existing pool,
>and as such the director should not be lambasted.

    No, the writers should be lambasted for not having enough
originality to create a viable screenplay sans lawsuit.  If the
movie "took ideas from existing fiction" it really does not matter -
it is plagarism in this case, I think.

Vincent J. Murphy
hi!vince@hc.dspo.gov

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 05:15:46 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Wilder Perkins
From: III)
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

>It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to
>sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they
>ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits
>episode.

They settled out of court.  Ellison pocketed a nice piece of change,
and current versions of TERMINATOR have a cryptic "Acknowledgement
to the works of Harlan Ellison" tag added to the credits.  You may
see the movie without fear that you're ripping off Ellison.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 22:49:40 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Ellison vs The Terminator

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> Many people have mentioned TERMINATOR in this discussion of
> good/bad sf films. I haven't seen the movie, but want to bring up
> a point not directly related to its quality...  It is my
> understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to sue the
> makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, [...]
>     I've wanted to see the movie for some time in order to compare
> them, but I will not do it in such a way as to support the people
> who stole another person's work (i.e. I wouldn't see it in a
> theater and probably wouldn't rent it).

Two points are worth making.  First, Ellison settled his differences
with the producers of The Terminator (out of court to be sure, but
settled nevertheless), and has been given credit on the videotape
versions of the Terminator.  Ellison is apparently satisfied with
his (undisclosed, but presumably relatively large and monetary)
settlement, and so even the most fastidious should have no qualms
about renting the videotape and watching it... Ellison has been paid
for whatever contribution he may have made to it.

Second, as nearly as I can tell, Ellison's Outer Limits episode
bears no significant resemblance to The Terminator, other than the
fact that both involve cyborgs, time travel, and the Frankenstein
syndrome.  Once before in this newsgroup I asked if anybody had more
facts than those freely available to the public (watch the two
episodes, hear that Ellison sued and settled), and got no response.
But based on the extremely little I know, I'd say Ellison simply
sicced his "killer lawyer" on a target that happened to have a lot
of money and lined his pockets, pure and simple.  Certainly,
Ellison's fiction has borrowed far more strongly from other and
earlier SF authors than The Terminator borrowed from Ellison.

My impression is that Ellison is a self-satisfied litigation-happy
twit who can write one hell of a story, and often has.  The
Terminator episode has reinforced this impression with me.  If I'm
wrong, I'll be very happy to be enlightened.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 19:02:57 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

It's my understanding that the suit was settled out of court.
Ellison was paid an undisclosed amount of money and a credit to him
was added to the movie. TERMINATOR is worthwhile watching. It is
perfectly plotted, has superb characterization and is very good hard
science fiction.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 21:27:07 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to
> sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they
> ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits
> episode.

Was this story "Demon With a Glass Hand"?  Good story, but nothing
at all like The Terminator (sure, a couple of superficial
resemblances.  There is an android involved.  There is time travel
involved.  The fate of the human race is involved.  That seems to be
it.  Oh yes.  There was also some combat.  Is Ellison claiming that
any story that involves androids, time travel, the human race, and
combat is a ripoff of "Demon With a Glass Hand"?  Do people believe
him?).

Perhaps it was another _Outer Limits_ episode that Ellison was
thinking of.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 20:06:38 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>  But based on the extremely little I know, I'd say Ellison simply
> sicced his "killer lawyer" on a target that happened to have a lot
> of money and lined his pockets, pure and simple.

Well, the way I hear it, Ellison has lost all of the money he won
from that suit, being sued for libel for something he said in one of
the comics journals. Ellison won, but he still had phenomonal lawyer
fees. (I guess the moral is, be a lawyer.)

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 13:04:01 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Bad SF Movies (Mistake about Jane Fonda)

SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu writes:
>Here are my nominees for WORST SF movies of all time:
>...
>3) BARBARELLA - Featuring a delightfully air-headed Jane Fonda in
>     her first film, in a fur-lined space ship.

BARBARELLA (1968) was not Jane Fonda's first film.  She made her
motion-picture debut in the movie TALL STORY (1960), with Anthony
Perkins and Ray Walston, and made other pictures throughout the
60's, including (but not limited to) SUNDAY IN NEW YORK (1963, with
Cliff Robertson), ANY WEDNESDAY (1966, with Jason Robards and Dean
Jones), BAREFOOT IN THE PARK (1967, with Robert Redford), THE CHASE
(1966, also with Redford, and with Marlon Brando), and HURRY SUNDOWN
(1967, with Michael Caine).

------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 May 87 07:54:20-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Fantasy Movies (humorous)

On the subject of good, funny fantasy movies, let's not forget "Time
Bandits" (done by a subset of the Monty Python crew, I believe).
Lots of fun!

Steve
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 13:16 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Wizards

stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
> Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for
> "Wizards".  For years I tried to find out who did the very
> characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular
> etchings.  It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller.
> Many of the scenes in Wizards, for example, the wrecked ships with
> teeth, the cranes and machinery with grappling claws, and the
> backdrop for Blackwolf's domain (that's the bad guy in Wizards,
> folks) were precisely in Ian Miller's style.  Copying style is a
> little fuzzier than copying characters, but artists, if not the
> Copyright Office, still consider it plagarism when unacknowledged.
> There were some other artists whose styles and motifs Bakshi used
> without attribution.  Unfortunately, I can no longer recall who
> they all are.

There was a very good reason that those backgrounds were Ian
Miller-esque; in point of fact, Ian Miller drew them!  If you check
the credits, his is one of the names listed.  Miller's stunning
backgrounds were among the many things I enjoyed about this film.

Another *very* important artistic influence was that of Mike Ploog
who pretty much reinterpreted the Bode style in his own image and
added many other touches that were soley of his imagination.
Ploog's elves for example were later 'ripped-off' by Wendy Pini (her
elves are virtually indentical).  Ploog was known for his stunning
and disturbing artwork on Marvel's Man Thing, and some early work on
Marvel's own Sword and Sorcery epic Weirdworld.

As for further rip-offs of Bode, it is sad to note that it continues
even further.  Eclipse Comics recently published a comic called P.J.
Warlock by Bill Schorr.  The similarity is so pronounced as to be
painful.  And the afforementioned Mark Bode has made anentire career
out of imitating his father, but without Vaughn's sincerity.  Vaughn
Bode was highly regarded among both comics and SF fans (he won at
least one Hugo, if memory serves correctly) and his tragic death
saddened many.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  7 May 1987 01:49:09-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Bakshi's WIZARDS and Ian Miller

From: stuart@CS.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stuart Friedberg)
> Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for
> "Wizards".  For years I tried to find out who did the very
> characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular
> etchings.  It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller.
> Many of the scenes in Wizards...  were precisely in Ian Miller's
> style.  Copying style is a little fuzzier than copying characters,
> but artists, if not the Copyright Office, still consider it
> plagarism when unacknowledged.

Sorry to tell you this, but the scenes you described in WIZARDS were
*not* ripped off from Ian Miller's style. They were done by Miller
himself, and I believe he got credit in the film for having done
them.

While I have no intention of being a Bakshi apologist, he did, at at
least one point in the film, acknowledge the work of certain fantasy
artists. One of Avatar's incantations was, "Morrow Krenkel
Frazetta!" Obviously a nod to Gray Morrow, Roy Krenkel, and Frank
Frazetta.

[I *was* going to say "some guy I never heard of named Frazetta",
but thought better of it. It's obvious from previous postings that
some people can't recognize humor when they see it.]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 207

Today's Topics:

           Books - Tolkien (3 msgs) & Wallace (4 msgs) &
                   Yarbro & Looking for Books & Book Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 87 13:48:03 CDT
From: Jeff Myers <myers@unix.macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: New Tolkien Books

> Two new books by JRR and Christopher Tolkien have been released:
> _The Lays of Beleriand_ and _The Shaping of Middle Earth: The
> Quenta, the Ambarkanta, and the Annals_.  A fifth (_The Lost
> Road_) is 'in preparation'.
>
> Has anyone read these?  (I won't have a chance for several weeks
> at least.)  Does anyone have any comments on the first two volumes
> of this set _The Book of Lost Tales_ vols I and II?  Anne

Thanks for the tip!  I just bought volume 4.

I, too, have been letting the *Lost Tales* sit on the shelf, but had
just started reading volume 1 the day before I read your note.  A
little synchronicity action here.

First, the *Lost Tales* are really for fairly hard-core Tolkien
readers.  It is a great way to discover the evolution of certain
plot lines and characters in JRR's thought.  However, you do have to
battle with changing names for places, people, and things.

Second, I've found son Christopher's editting to be well done and
his comments thoughtful.  The comments have thus far invariably
picked up on the major problems and questions I have had when
reading the texts, as well as pointing out minor details and
less-minor ones I didn't pick up.

I also find JRR's devotion to Christianity (I assume the repulsive
ideas you referred to are related to that) somewhat shocking, but I
am pleased and amazed at how that is kept separate from his
presentation of Middle Earth to his readers.  While the myth of
Iluvatar has parallels with Christian thought, it has more in common
with pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon mythologies.

Jeff Myers
University of Wisconsin Law School
ARPA: myers@vms.macc.wisc.edu
BitNet: MYERS at WISCMACC
UUCP: {harvard,ucbvax,allegra,topaz,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!myers

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 08:31:30 GMT
From: jml@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Re: Tolkien: _Lays of Beleriand_

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>>The negative scenario that underlies Tolkien's Universe causes me
>>mild depression so I tend to take the pre-"Ring" histories in
>>small doses.
>Really?  I find this interesting and unfortunate.  I belong to the
>small (presumably) number of readers who prefer the sagas of the
>elven-lords and their struggles, triumphs, and heartbreak to the
>watered-down reality of LOTR and especially The Hobbit.  In fact, I
>can't stand The Hobbit, though I love The Silmarillion.

I agree wholeheartedly with MacLeod. The mystique and epic quality
of the elder sagas far exceed LOTR(itself a pleasant little story)
and especially the Hobbit.Does anyone agree that the invention of
hobbits totally depreciates the 'reality' of the later ages? Does
anyone know why Tolkein introduced them in the first place? Was it
simply to write a story for his children? I mean you can hardly
expect a group of 4 foot high plump hairy 'cute and cuddly' gnomes
to rival the grandness and tragedy of the gods the elves, man,
dwarf, the savage early orcs etc unless you are a child.  Just think
of such epics as the tale of Turin and of Beren and Luthien.For
grandeur,the description of the sack of Gondolin in the Book of Lost
Tales Vol II can barely be exceeded.

jml

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 03:34:05 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate)
Subject: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion

Joseph McLean writes:
> The mystique and epic quality of the elder sagas far exceed LOTR
> (itself a pleasant little story) and especially the Hobbit.  Does
> anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally depreciates the
> 'reality' of the later ages? Does anyone know why Tolkien
> introduced them in the first place? Was it simply to write a story
> for his children? I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot
> high plump hairy 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness
> and tragedy of the gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early
> orcs etc unless you are a child.  Just think of such epics as the
> tale of Turin and of Beren and Luthien.  For grandeur,the
> description of the sack of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales Vol
> II can barely be exceeded.

I don't know about that; I find the ruins of Isengard to be one of
the most striking images in the who thing.

In many ways it is unfair to compare the personages in the LOTR to
those in the Quenta Silmarillion (which I am going to abbreviate as
QS to save lots of bits).  The people of the QS are all veritable
titans, so it is unconscionable that their works should not be
titanic.  But in LOTR, the characters are NOT titans, with perhaps a
few exceptions.  Sauron is clearly one; he is titanic Evil (Morgoth
being godlike Evil), and indeed, the central problem to be resolved
is how our very untitanic heroes are going to overcome him.
Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf perhaps might be titans, but I would
argue that they are not.  The first two, while they appear in the
QS, essentially choose to forgo their former greatness for what turn
out to be very good reasons; Gandalf, while he is perhaps the most
powerful of the forces of Good, is limited, and is controlled by a
host of frailties.

In the end, the result is that we have two very different sorts of
stories.  In the QS, what we have is essentially in the form of a
classical tragedy; the ending is fore-ordained from the beginning.
Likewise with Akallabeth.  But the LOTR is different, for here Good
finally triumphs-- Finally triumphs-- albeit at tremendous cost.  In
the first, the mighty destroy themselves, belying their nobility; in
the last, the small succeed in overcoming their flaws and avoiding
the temptation of self-destruction, and are thus ennobled.

THe Hobbits are quite important to this pattern, as is Gandalf.
This is made abundantly clear in "Of the Rings of Power and the
Third Age"; it is the things which were overlooked by Sauron, the
supposedly insignificant and inconsequential beings, which turn the
tide.  Remember too the ents, which nobody particularly cared about,
and which were the doom of Isengard.  Gandalf, on the other hand,
serves mostly as a distraction (for both the reader and the Bad
Guys!); he's very powerful, when he is not actively thwarted, he is
deliberately trying to look like the center of the action, which he
never really is after the first book.  The one real action he takes
after that point is to expell Saruman from Orthanc, and even that is
a bit of a decoy.

To me, then, the two works really cannot be compared against one
another; I prefer LOTR, but I don't think that this means it is the
better work.  It is a question of taste.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 11:57:04 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Availability of Ian Wallace books

From:   force10!erskine (Neil S. Erskine)
> I have been looking in bookstores (new and used) for many years,
> and have yet to discover any books by Ian Wallace other than 'A
> Voyage to Dari'. Does anyone know if they were ever released in
> North America, and whether or not they are currently available?  I
> was very impressed by the 'A Voyage to Dari', and would like to
> read the other related books mentioned in it.

Ian Wallace is a strange, but wonderful writer whose works seem to
be popular enough with editors to keep them buying the books, but
evidently not popular enough with consumers to keep his books in
print. Except for four books that where published in hardcover by
Putnam's and later in paperback by Berkley (another arm of the same
company), no book of Wallace's ever saw a second edition. And with
two exceptions, all of the rest appeared in paperback, all but one
from DAW Books.

His entire book-length output (he apparently wrote short fiction for
literary magazines but not for the sf magazines) is as follows:

CROYD                           Putnam (1967),  Berkley (1968)
DR. ORPHEUS                     Putnam (1968),  Berkley (1969)
DEATHSTAR VOYAGE                Putnam (1969),  Berkley (1970)
THE PURLOINED PRINCE            McCall (1971)
PAN SAGITTARIUS                 Putnam (1973)   Berkley (1974)
A VOYAGE TO DARI                DAW (1974)
THE WORLD ASUNDER               DAW (1976)
THE SIGN OF THE MUTE MEDUSA     Popular Library (1977)
Z-STING                         DAW (1978)
HELLER'S LEAP                   DAW (1979)
THE LUCIFER COMET               DAW (1980)
THE RAPE OF THE SUN             DAW (1982)

THE PURLOINED PRINCE, even though it's hardcover only, is not really
that hard to find if you're diligent enough. I've seen copies of it
for sale here and there in my travels. The real trick is finding a
copy of EVERY CRAZY WIND, published under his real name: John
Wallace Pritchard. It's a psychological novel (which might account
for why he considers it part of his "Adventures of Minds in Bodies"
series), but not sf. This book is extremely rare. I have never seen
a copy offered for sale anywhere. I have an illicit xerox of it made
from a library copy, but that's all I've ever seen of it.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 87 14:23:58 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Ian Wallace

Ian Wallace writes (wrote?  haven't seen a new one in about 4 years)
rather strange but appealing books, usually centered in a universe
where the main planet is Erth (sic).  I beleive he collectively
titles all his books as "Adventures of Minds in Bodies", and that is
one of his major themes, that the brain is a computer that the mind
operates and that minds are not necessarily fixed in space or time.
(He also has interesting conceptions of time travel - "uptime" to
the past and "downtime" to the future).  His first books made him
seem like a 1970's successor to Van Vogt, but in his later ones he
deals more with personal relationships and myth than cosmic
adventure (though it's still there).

His first books were from Berkley/Putnam, his later one from DAW.

Here are the ones I am aware of:

_Croyd_ (*)
_Dr. Orpheus_   (*)
_Pan Saggitarius_
_Z Sting_       (*)
_Heller's Leap_
_A Voyage to Dari_      (*)
_The World Asunder_
_The Rape of the Sun_
_The Sign of the Mute Medusa_
_The Lucifer Comet_
_Every Crazy Wind_

Croyd is Wallace's Van Vogtian superhuman (his species is Croyd
Toth) hero, who figures heavily in the books marked with (*).  Pan
Saggitarius is his twin (actually it is more complex than that) who
eventually gets a job in Hell, letting lost souls relive their lives
(in the If Nodes of Antan) and make the right choices this time.

Wallace also has a woman detective something or other St. Cyr who
figures in at least 3 books of which I can recall the title only for
_The Sign of the Mute Medusa_.

Croyd and St. Cyr both frame the story in _Heller's Leap_, but play
no part in most of it.

_The World Asunder_, _The Rape of the Sun_ and _The Lucifer Comet_
are (if memory serves) unrelated to the Cryod universe.  The "rape"
in question, by the way, is the same as in Pope's "The Rape of the
Lock".

I've never seen a copy of _Every Crazy Wind_, but I think it is
mentioned in the front of an couple of the others as being set in the
1940's, so it may not be SF (though I wouldn't rule it out).

I always look forward to a Wallace book - anyone know if he's still
alive and writing?

Ted Nolan
teda@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 17:37:54 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Ian Wallace Query

> I have been looking in bookstores (new and used) for many years,
>and have yet to discover any books by Ian Wallace other than 'A
>Voyage to Dari'. Does anyone know if they were ever released in
>North America, and whether or not they are currently available?

I don't know if they're currently in print, but they certainly were.
This is from memory, but:

"Croyd" is the first book in the series.
"Dr. Orpheus" is next.
"A Voyage to Dari".
"Z-Sting" is chronologically first.
"Pan Saggitarius" (I may easily have this title wrong) isn't about
   Croyd but about someone else who's [literally] exactly like him.
"Heller's Leap" is an unconnected book.
"The World Assunder" (Do I have this title right) is also
   unconnected, but if you see it GRAB it.  I think it Wallace's best.
And I'm forgetting one.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 09:17:38 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Ian Wallace Query

   HELLER'S LEAP is not entirely unconnected - Croyd is in it.  But
it's really part of another series Wallace has done, starring
Claudine St.-Cyr of the Galactic Police. Other books in the series
include DEATHSTAR VOYAGE, THE PURLOINED PRINCE, and THE SIGN OF THE
MUTE MEDUSA. Recommended.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 05:55:31 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Yarbro's St. Germaine Series

From:   vax1!ag4
> Can someone post or send me a list of the book in Chelsea Quinn
> Yarbo's St.  Germaine Series?

In order of publication:

HOTEL TRANSYLVANIA
THE PALACE
BLOOD GAMES
PATH OF THE ECLISPE
TEMPTING FATE
THE ST. GERMAINE CHRONICLES     [novelettes]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 19:57:37 GMT
From: dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Dave Montuori)
Subject: Looking for new stuff from some authors....

My wife is looking for somw new stuff to read, having been through
her, my, and the library's collections a least once. What she'd like
to know is:

1. Is there anything new out by Joy Chant or Robin McKinley? Even
   rumors of new stuff in the near future?

2. Does anyone know of a date, even a vaguely approximate one, for
   Mary Gentle's sequel to _Golden_Witchbreed_?

Please email responses to me; or better yet, to her directly! Her
address is:

#SLWHI1%WMMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
(or just #SLWHI1@WMMVS for y'all on BITNET)

Both Sallie and I thank you in advance.

Dave Montuori
dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu
{allegra | cbosgd | ncsu}!uvacs!dam

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 87 16:53:18 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
Subject: The League of Grey Eyed Women

I can't keep quiet any longer. I am amazed that no one has yet
mentioned this book in my 8 or so months on this net. So help me, I
cannot remember the author's name, but this book ranks right up
there in my top 20 favorite SF books.  It's been years since I've
seen it, and its probably long since out of print, but speaking of
good books to make a movie out of..  this might be a good one.  The
story

****spoilers ahead****

(Yes, I always read these, too!!)  is about a group of women who
have telepathic powers by virtue of having a particular gene present
on both X-chromosomes. Having both is necessary for full ability,
thus men cannot have it, although having one allele causes the
possessor to be more sensitive than the average run-of-the-mill type
(male or female). The story details the efforts of some of the women
(who believe telepathy to be an advantage) to develope gene
plasticity to create a slightly longer leg on the short bit of the
Y-chromosome. All of which may sound terribly dull, but truly isn't,
especially not to the hapless and unknowning male they try their
potion on!!  Oh, yes. A side effect of having the full allele pair
is grey eyes, thus the title.

****end spoilers****

This is a well-written, tight, entirely enjoyable novel.  Has anyone
read it besides me???  And, who is the author??

Sheri

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 1009-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 1009-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 208

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - BECCON Awards & Hugos &
                              Photography at Cons & 
                              Planets & Telepathy (2 msgs) &
                              What is SF (5 msgs) &
                              The Perfect Creature (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 87 18:06:51 GMT
From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey)
Subject: Awards at BECCON

The main awards presented at BECCON (the 38th British Easter
Convention)

The Arthur C. Clarke Award
 The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood

The BSFA Awards
 Artwork:     The Clocktower Girl,   by Keith Roberts
 Media:       Aliens
 Novel:       The Ragged Astronauts, by Bob Shaw
 Short Story: Kaeti and the Hangman, by Keith Roberts

(I think that this is the first time that any professional has won
both an art and a literary award.)

The Doc Weir Award (for services to British fandom)
 Brian Burgess

In case any Conspiracy 87 member hasn't heard, I'll take this
opportunity to post the information that, because of problems with
our Post Office, the Hugo & Campbell nomination deadline has been
extended to 1st May; all nominations postmarked up to and including
30th April will be counted, if received by Paul Kincaid (Hugo Awards
Administrator, 114 Guildhall Street, Folkestone, Kent CT30 1ES,
U.K.) before 8th May.

Regards,

Peter Mabey
phm@stl
..!mcvax!ukc!stl!phm
+44-279-29531 x3596

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 87 19:09:32 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Hugo categories

From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
> ...It won the Hugo that year (1960) for "short fiction", and this
> was probably the source of my confusion---both novelettes and
> short stories apparently qualify for "short fiction" and I
> probably only remembered the "short" bit.  What's interesting is
> that it seems most years there is a Hugo awarded for both
> novelette and short story, but that year there was only this
> category "short fiction".

For all intents and purposes (it's more complicated these days), the
Hugo categories can be modified. For instance, in 1958, there was no
novelette category; from 1960 through 1965, the novelette and short
story categories were combined into "short fiction", being separated
again in 1966; the novella category didn't start until 1967; and
from 1970 through 1972, there was again no novelette category.
Things have been pretty stable since.

> What's the dividing line, anyway?  What's the difference between a
> short story, novelette, novella, and full-blown novel?

Unless they've changed them since the last time I read the rules,
the dividing lines are as follows:

Short Story:    Under 7000 words
Novelette:      7000-17,000 words
Novella:        17,000-40,000 words
Novel:          Over 40,000 words

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 18:20:19 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Photography at sf cons

>Hi!  I'm going to write a guide for photography at sf cons, and I'd
>appreciate any help you can give me.

The best source of information on this subject that I know is an
article on this very subject published in (the 1986 Hugo winning)
Lan's Lantern, issue 22 which is the current issue. The article is
called "Shooting 'Em in the Dark" by yours truly. The issue can be
gotten from:

   George "Lan" Laskowski
   55 Valley Way
   Bloomfield Hills, MI  48013

There should also be a followup article in the next issue on how to
run a masquerade photo area.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 09:41:52 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Single Territory Planets

ksand@mapper.UUCP (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>Why on Earth :-) are the majority of the sf stories written so that
>the inhabited planets are populated by:
>
>a) a single homogen race
>b) a single nation?

 c) and all speaking the same language.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 09:18:02 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing

Spider Robinson in Callahans Crosstime Saloon.. the story called
"two heads are better than one" The two brothers are telepaths, in
order to shut out the rest of the world (would you want to know what
EVERYONE was thinking within a 10 mile radius!?) one learns to
filter, one goes completely catatonic, complete shutout of the rest
of the world.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 23:06:23 GMT
From: denise@mcvax.cwi.nl (Denise L. Draper)
Subject: Re: telepathy isn't always good

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
>Are there any other instances in SF where the subject of telepathy
>is treated as a curse rather than a gift?

The short story _Corona_, by Samual Delany, deals with this; the
`victim' is a young child.  The story appears in the book
_Driftglass_ (a collection of Delany's short stories).  I thought
the story (and the whole book) was quite good.

denise

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 15:21:55 GMT
From: hplabs!mcnc!rti-sel!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Solaris, Wishsong, Radix

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>I think I understand why you might, at first glance, think it is
>hard SF: it goes into all sorts of theoretical (esp. physical)
>explanations of all the various forces/powers etc. that are
>floating around ...
>1) While the explanations in the glossary seem to be made of
>   physical theories that are just sooo complex that the average
>   reader is completely lost in the sauce, you must realize that
>   all of this stuff is your basic b*ll sh*t!!  None of it is
>   *real* theory -- Attanasio made it all up! ...

For you people who care about such things, a spoiler probably
follows (in my opinion, though, a book that can be "spoiled" by
revealing plot details is not worth reading :-)

Would Gregory Benford's "Artifact" qualify as hard SF, then? His
"superquark" rolling around under the earth is -- ahem -- not *real*
theory -- Benford made it all up! To my way of thinking a lot of
what classifies as hard SF is also your basic b*ll sh*t tarted up to
appeal to technophiles who want to think anything is possible (see,
for example, almost any of Bob Silverberg's articles in Amazing).
Maybe "hard" SF ain't so hard after all ...

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 01:41:48 GMT
From: moews@husc4.harvard.edu (david moews)
Subject: What is Hard SF?

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>...Would Gregory Benford's "Artifact" qualify as hard SF, then? His
>"superquark" rolling around under the earth is -- ahem -- not
>*real* theory -- Benford made it all up! To my way of thinking a
>lot of what classifies as hard SF is also your basic b*ll s*it
>tarted up to appeal to technophiles who want to think anything is
>possible...

    I think you've mistaken the source of the appeal of hard SF.  It
isn't that technophiles like to be deluded into thinking that wild
speculations are possible; it's just the Sheer Appeal of
Technogibberish.  Some fantasy books probably appeal to hard SF
readers as much as more conventional hard SF: I'm thinking of things
like

  "The Magic Goes Away" (Niven).  I think GW Smith mentioned this.
Not even the most naive technophile could think that the events in
this story are plausible; the fun is in seeing the consequences that
Niven draws from his assumptions about Magic (I guess this is
Oversimplified Science and not Technogibberish.)

 _Master_Of_The_Five_Magics_ and _Secret_Of_The_Sixth_Magic_ (Lyndon
Hardy).  These are pretty dreadful books, but the idea is much the
same as Niven: pseudoscientific speculation is fun, whether it takes
place in this Universe or another one.  The author even lists his
seven Laws of Magic in the front of the first book to aid our
comprehension.

    Perhaps the "Compleat Enchanter" stories also qualify as Magic
with a Rational Basis.  And of course there are lots of books with
loony speculations that appeal partly because of their
technogibberish, like Doc Smith's "Skylark" series, or the "Lensman"
series, and perhaps even _Radix_ (I dunno, I haven't read it.)
After all, if the speculation in hard SF had to be completely
possible, there wouldn't be many hard SF books at all.

David Moews
moews@husc4.harvard.edu
...!harvard!husc4!moews

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 03:28:54 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: What is SF anyhow?

It seems that every time someone says "add safrgfuhregkjf to the
list of good/bad SF .."  someone comes back and says "That's not
SF!.." Half the time they make a clean distinction between SF and
Fantasy, half the time between *HARD* SF and everything else
(another debate in its own right) and the other half of the time
they just didn't like that one, so they don't want it polluting the
genre. I've seen a lot posted that I (ME ALONE NOT NECESSARILY YOU)
do not consider SF (hard soft or firm) or Fantasy, but just FICTION.
(like Zelig for instance). It seems that if people out there liked a
particular story/movie/.. and it wasnt a documentary it must be SF!
and if they didn't it couldn't be (well, that's an over
generalization but anyhow..)  Could it be that SF and what the rest
of the world (like my father the English Prof.) would consider
(plain ordinary) Fiction are begining to overlap ? Can it be that SF
is becomming an accepted literary form. Could it be that traditional
SF authors are producing works that you don't need to be a pimple-
faced, I live soley on taco-chips and mimeo ink teenager to read ?
(Not, of course, that I believe anyone on the NET fits this
description) If you stick science into a movie or book does that
make it SF ? Thats the impression I'm getting from out there (want
to read my nifty new SF physics text?)  If you set up your story in
a time/space that never existed, is it Fantasy ?  If so, why don't I
find Homer, Dante and Shakespeare along side Tolkien in the
bookstore ? Perhaps SF as an independent genre is dying out ? I
think not, but the field is getting muddier. SF now engages in all
the various literary devices and ways of other more traditional
genres, where the distinctions used to be very clear (any story
about a sword wielding ex- scientist on mars was definitly SF) I
don't think that just because a story is similar to something we
consider SF it is necessarily SF, or - more to that point, if a
story has a message like "we'd better take better care of our world"
or "we aren't necessarily the hottest creature in the universe" it
doesn't necessarily HAVE to be SF. Just because science is invoked
(how can we avoid it these days?) it isn't necessarily SF. Just
because its not taking place in Downtown Toronto on June 12 1986 and
following whatever was current events at the time, is it necessarily
SF.

Face it, some of you might actually have read and enjoyed other
genres of literature !

hideous thought eh ?

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 17:54:14 GMT
From: gatech!hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: What is Hard SF?

In my opinion, hard science fiction is fiction in which the author
draws heavily upon known (though often obscure) science fact when
inventing new worlds or concepts.  Examples of authors who use such
knowledge are Hal Clement, Arthur C. Clarke, Larry Niven and Frank
Herbert(esp. Eyes of Heisenberg).  I would guess that hard science
fiction gets its appeal because it somehow seems more plausible and
therefore much easier to relate to.

I really enjoy reading works of an author who can explain the basis
for some of what occurs in his stories.  It gives the fiction a
sense of realism which in turn makes it more believeable and
involving.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 20:43:04 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: What is Hard SF?

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
> Examples of authors who use such knowledge are Hal Clement, Arthur
> C. Clarke, Larry Niven and Frank Herbert(esp. Eyes of Heisenberg).

I'll disagree with Herbert in the hard SF category.  He seems to be
more in the bullshit hard-sf category--spit out lots of
techno-gibberish to try and convince the reader that the author
actually knows something about what he's blabbing about.  _The Jesus
Incident_ and its predecessor (or successor--I forget the title and
the order) were especially bad in this.

Some of Herbert's stuff is worth reading, but none of it (in my
opinion, of course) is hard sf.

Hmm.  _The Dragon of the Deep_ (or something like that--the one with
the oil-stealing submarines) may be a counterexample.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 87 10:50:41 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature

You ask the impossible.. perfect is subject to too many variables,
just ask Darwin. The perfect creature born on a 97% Helium
atmosphere planet composed entirely of Andes type mountain ranges
would be somewhat differently designed than one born on a planet
whose suface was either water or unihabitable wasteland because the
atmosphere was corrosive (like ours will be soon)

Perfect is defined (in this context) by the local of evolution, and
evolution tries to produce perfect creatures, i.e. any change for
the better tends to be kept alive and breeding.

We know too little about the universe outside of our planet, who
knows whats perfect out there? A perfect creature for this planet is
a more feasible task, but then for modern North America or some
other part of the globe ?

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 87 11:05 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Keith Anderson)
Subject: The perfect creature

Have you considered making it Photosynthetic?  It could have a
folding membrane that it open to catch sunlight.  If it could
survive in a vacuum, it could have a near unlimited food supply.  I
am thinking of a short story I read in a book by John Varley, either
_The_Barbie_Murders_, or _Picnic_ _On_Nearside_ (I think one was
renamed as the other).  It concerned a symbiosis between a
semisentient plantoid, and a human.  The plant supplied the food for
the human, and protected it from vacuum, and the human supplied body
wastes, intelligence, and locomotion for the plant.  The plant sort
of encased the human, like a second skin, and the 2 would jump
around the rings of Saturn, prospecting for something.  The idea
would be to make the animal photosynthetic and vacuum safe on its
own, and then add other goodies.

Keith Anderson
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 17:37:26 GMT
From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: The perfect (??) creature

gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes:
>...a planet whose ... atmosphere was corrosive (like ours will be
>soon)

Uh, sorry to break the news, but our atmosphere has been highly
corrosive since shortly after life came into existence.  Nasty
stuff, oxygen...

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #209
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #209
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 209

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 17:37:44 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Waldo & Magic, Inc.

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>... (Even in that old book of his, _Waldo and Magic, Inc._ that I
>>have lying around, (which I haven't read yet -- sorry), the cover
>>summaries imply that it deals with one single guy who "owns"
>>Earth! The cover blurb sure makes it sound like this guy is going
>>to be the protagonist, though by now, this should not surprise
>>people too much.) ...
>
>    Nope, no-one owns Earth in either "Waldo" or "Magic, Inc."
> Read Before You Flame.

  David is right- read first.  THEN flame! 8-)

  But really, I hardly EVER take the blurbs at their word, esp.
about Heinlein.

  _Starman Jones_: "A young stowaway on a space ship finds himself
                   on an unknown planet, in an unknown century, the
                   ship and charts destroyed, and the crew dead..."

This is (roughly) one of the ad blubs for this book, which is in
about 5 million OTHER books.  he only part that is true is that he
IS a stowaway, and the ship IS damaged/lost, sort of....  The crew
is not all dead- the natives kill a bunch, though.  The ship is
pretty much OK.  The year is what it always was.

This is only one example blurb authors often don't seem to really
read the book.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 14:55:06 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Sources (RAH)..., and a minor mystery....

cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu writes:
>While checking through the biblio (years ago) I found a RAH novel
>that I had never read, and in fact had never made it into PB or HB
>publication.  I don't recall the title, but it was one of his
>serialized novels published in _Boy's Life_ back in the early '50s.
> Does anyone happen to know anything about this?

   There are *2* such stories. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon"
was serialized in the April and May, 1950 issues of Boy's Life, and
"Tenderfoot in Space" was in the May-July, 1958 issues. Neither has
ever been reprinted; they are the only published works of RAH I've
never read, *sigh*.
   Source: Bibliography in HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION, Alexei Panshin,
Advent, 1968.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 15:21:23 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Kev, I'm afraid the review didn't impress me as "balanced".  It
seems to start out with a preconception, "anarchy is barbaric, the
weak live in fear of the strong", and then draw references from the
book to support it.

It's very much the kind of one-sided essay I used to write in high-
school literature classes.  Think up a point (preferably in
disagreement with the teacher's opinion), and pull references to
support it.  The more outrageous your thesis, and the better
supported, the higher your mark.

Anyway, I'll give the thing full marks on that basis, but the
content is lacking in insight.  I'm not trying to say that I agree
with Heinlein's philosophy, but I don't think that the anonymous
author of that review understands it well enough to argue with it.

Heinlein believes in the enlightened anarchy because the people HE
thinks deserve to live are the ones that he thinks will survive.  He
doesn't think that the weak will be killed, just the obnoxious.
Nowhere in the book is there an instance of anyone being spaced
because they couldn't defend themselves.  It's always a group of
people who informally decide between them that one person no longer
desrves to breathe air.  The hypothesis is that if you don't annoy
more than one person at a time, nobody will try to kill you.  (If
you do, you probably deserve it.)

I won't go on picking apart the review lest someone thinks I agree
with Heinlein, which I don't, necessarily.

Steve Rapaport
U. of Waterloo
ihnp4!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 21:38:20 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay (*SPOILERS*)

dlleigh@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
> [during] The novel Friday [...the] hero visits the country of
> California and finds a rich, well-developed libertarian paradise.

Hmmmm.  "A libertarian para..."  Saaaaaaaaaay, is this is same book
I read?  It seemed to me that the California in the book was rather
a dystopia.  Or did no one else think that RAH was satirizing
various tendencies in American culture by fictionally balkanizing
the country?  Not that I think he was particularly subtle or
ingenious, but come on folks, the idea that the *cultures* that
Heinlein inserts into his fiction reflect his ideology is just as
simplistic as the notion that his *characters* do.  Both of these
notions seem blatantly false to me.

If there is a consistent theme, it is much more a rather broadly
sketched one of individual morality, accountability, and
responsibility.  If folks want to sneer and call this "elitism",
that's fine I suppose.  But I hope you'll pardon me for nevertheless
finding the stories interesting *as* *stories*, and I don't see the
sense in ritually abhoring Heinlein for all the crackpot garbage he
himself is baselessly accused of... uh, excuse me, I mean of course
all the insightful interpretation to which his fiction is subjected.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 21:44:37 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Heinlein-bashing

Y'know, folks... it seems to me that, during the Maroney
out-of-context dispute about Heinlein, and during this more recent
"anonymous essay" business, I perhaps come across as a drooling
Heinlein zombie, as Maroney once upon a time accused anybody who
defended him of being.  Well, I want to say loud and clear, here and
now, that I don't think Heinlein's fiction is the greatest extant
(Of SF authors I rate him about 5th or a little lower, depending on
mood and circumstance).  And I don't even have an opinion of the man
himself, as I have no faith in armchair psychoanalysis of an author
via the author's fiction.

But it seems to me that I ought to point out a couple of specific
things I find extremely annoying in Heinlein's work, just to... oh I
dunno...  lend credibility to my appreciation of his work in
general.

The first is the very prevalant references to "the race", meaning
all of humanity, and the constant justification of various actions
on the part of the protagonists as promoting the welfare of "the
race".  Why do I find this annoying?  Well, I have no idea whether
Heinlein thinks so or not, but I think the notion that individual
actions can or should be justified on pseudo-evolutionary
benefit-of-the-race rationalization to be purest nonsense.

The second is related to the first.  Heinlein explains far, far too
much of his female characters' motives (and his male characters'
reactions to female characters) in terms of pseudo-evolutionary
reproductive-related social-Darwinistic nonsense.  His characters'
constant and conscious exploiting of every possible opportunity to
get pregnant and raise children, coupled with the smug
self-satisfaction these characters project while engaged in this
pursuit I find particularly nauseating.

The third is that many of Heinlein's protagonists are abrasive,
annoying, pompous, self-satisfied jackasses.  Lazarus Long in
particular.  While this makes for an entertaining story, and while I
don't have any faith whatsoever in psychoanalyzing Heinlein on the
basis of Lazarus' perceived faults or virtues, the fact remains that
when Lazarus is in control of a conversation and has the ear of an
audience, he is one of the most boring old farts I've ever had the
misfortune to listen to.  But this very opinionated jack-assery is
one of the things that makes Lazarus an excellent protagonist for
action, adventure, and romance.  In other words, I enjoy Lazarus'
memoirs and accounts of his experiences, but when he gets to
justifying himself or simply shooting the breeze with other
characters on Tertius (do I have the name of the planet right?), he
loses his appeal quite quickly.

The first two points I fault as being implausible behavior.  The
third is all too plausible, but still doesn't excuse giving the
self-agrandizement of a boring old fart so much of center stage in
what is supposed (I hope) to be entertainment.

But all of Heinlein's faults put together and at their most
oppresive don't ammount to diddly in comparison to the bulk of
shallow sophomoric twaddle that purports to be criticism against
him.

Oh, foo, now you've all got *me* sounding like a boring old
disgruntled fart myself.  Such is the danger of literary criticism,
I suppose.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 05:07:13 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* SPOILERS *)

   I'd like to thank all the contributors to the Heinlein
discussion, and Peter Kiehtreiber in particular, for providing me
much interesting reading. Great essay, Peter, but I must register
one *strong* disagreement: why do you think this discussion is best
moved to email?? It's interesting, it's spirited without being
overly flamacious, and it's about ideas. SF is supposed to be the
literature of ideas, right? I mean, I love SF movies, too, and even
enjoy STAR TREK (but you trekkies/trekkers *do* have your own group,
you know), but I prefer to see this group primarily be about written
SF, and ideas.
   Well, onward. I'll try to stick to points not yet covered, or not
adequately covered, in previous articles.
   I am surprised, in this bicentennial year of the Constitution,
that no one has pointed out how much of the Loonie's revolution was
consciously modeled on the American Revolution. It occurs in 2076,
they adopt the Declaration of Independence nearly whole, and their
basic problem is absentee rulership. Perhaps most significant to the
current discussion is their working out of a Constitution. The
Heinlein critics point out that the Prof and his cronies railroad
their own ideas in, and popular will be damned. Well, read your
history, guys.  Compare the charter the Philadelphia convention had
with what they actually did. Were they really empowered to simply
throw out the Articles of Confederation, and put a new, strong
national government in its place? Not really. Their only authority
was necessity. Did they ask the people what they thought of the new
Constitution? Nope. They were the ones who'd run the revolution, and
they felt they were the ones with the means and the ability to
create the new United States of America.
   Heinlein is *quite* explicit in evoking the parallels, in large
ways and small. Remember a passing reference to a "Foo-Moses
Morris", who financed the Loonie's revolution in large part, and
went bankrupt in the process? Funny coincidence: there was a fellow
named Morris who was mainly responsible for keeping the American
Revolution solvent, and he ended up going broke, too.
   Whatever you may think of RAH's politics (or what you *think* are
RAH's politics :-), there is no question that he is more
knowledgeable of real-world politics than 99% of the world's SF
writers. He's run for office himself (read MAGIC, INC for a look at
his shot at politics, disguised as fantasy). When he writes of the
political machinations and cloakroom maneuvering in the Loonie's
revolution, he's not plugging ideology, he's simply showing you the
real world. Revolutionaries that know only guns and propaganda are
never successful. If their revolution succeeds, they end up being
next in line for the gallows after the former rulers; look at the
French Revolution for a perfect example. Those who see
contradiction, who claim RAH's characters betray RAH's supposed
ideals with their pragmatism, are failing to appreciate RAH's own
pragmatism. In RAH's novels, idealism is how you decide on your
goals, but pragmatism is what you need to reach those goals. Is this
contradictory, or merely too complex for the true ideologues to
appreciate?
   Quite a few people seem to find Heinlein's love of courtesy, and
his suggestions of Draconian punishments for rudeness, outrageous.
Quite a bit of this is clearly from biased reading, since things
like Mannie's suggestion that halitosis should be grounds for
throwing someone out the airlock were clearly facetious; geez, guys!
   But the virtue of politeness is a recurring theme in RAH's books,
and deserves further discussion. Heinlein, himself, is a gentleman
of the old school, and a great believer in civilized manners. His
emotional reaction to rude and obnoxious persons is, I suspect, not
all that different from Mannie's. One of the fringe benefits of
writing fiction, you know, is getting to take vicarious revenge on
the various pinheads one encounters in real life. Heinlein obviously
enjoys writing about places where the obnoxious get their just
desserts, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the minor obnoxious
characters in his books are strongly based on rude twits he's had
the misfortune to encounter in real life. But let's not go assuming
he's in favor of capital punishment for bad manners.
   He has given such an idea a serious presentation sometimes,
though. A better example than MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, is BEYOND
THIS HORIZON, with its gun-toting bravos and legal dueling.
Admittedly, this is probably not everyone's ideal society :-), but
those who have criticized it have failed to address Heinlein's
argument for it: that such a society would not only be more polite,
but also *less* violent, than our own.  Why? Because (according to
Heinlein, at least) few of the rude and obnoxious would be foolish
enough to hold on to such bad habits in a society that permits
dueling, and the few that did, wouldn't last long.
   Overall, though, it's best not to assume Heinlein is actively in
favor of every idea he presents in his novels with *apparent*
approval. What has always stood out for me in his books, more than
the semi-libertarian politics, more than the advocacy of relaxed
sexual mores, more than the idolization of family, and of good
manners, is that this is a man who likes to *play* with ideas, a man
who is perfectly happy to play Devil's advocate with a straight
face, a man who enjoys pricking his readers with novel and
unsettling notions. I would never say that his books don't often
reflect his own opinions; it's clear they frequently do. But I'm not
always sure *when* they are his real beliefs, and when he's just
throwing something at me because it's interesting, plausible, and
worth thinking about. Heinlein seems to hate the unthought response,
the reflex opinion, and combats it by novelty, by hitting people
with ideas not quite like the ones they're familiar with, ideas that
can't be effectively refuted by simply borrowing some favorite
ideologue's thoughts as counter arguments. But some people don't let
that stop them.  They'll cut and squeeze and interpret and
misinterpret and distort, until they've force-fit Heinlein into a
pigeonhole they can deal with, and then attack this straw man, now
neatly packaged as a Libertarian, or anarchist, or fascist, or
militarist, or sexist, etc. Perhaps this is RAH's failure, as well
as theirs. Perhaps he's not iconoclastic enough to break these molds
people put him in, or perhaps he's just not a good enough writer to
get his real message across to a lot of the readers. But, like
Twain, I suspect there's some justice in respecting him for the
frequency with which he's misunderstood.  Anyone who can make
everyone mad at him can't be all bad :-).

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 May 87 1038-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #210
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 87 1038-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #210
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 9 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 210

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 00:34:58 GMT
From: smann@ihlpa.att.com (Mann)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes:
>ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>  Also, take a long hard look at the way Heinlein portrays women
>>in most of his works: even though they may ostensibly be in
>>control of a lot of things in reality they are *nothing* more than
>>pretty faces and sexual objects.
>
>Have you ever read anything by Heinlein?
>
>If so, how did you manage to miss [mention of several of RAH female
>characters]?  None of these are pretty faces and sex objects.

I have to agree with Kevin.  In fact, he pointed out the thing that
bothers me the most about Heinlein's books - especially more recent
ones - that although the female characters supposedly were strong,
independent women, they seemed to me to be filling a sexual fantasy
role for the male character.  What a turn on - to be able to
dominate such strong, independent women!  I certainly can't identify
with these women.

Sherry Mann
ihnp4!ihlpa!smann

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 19:43:47 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart21.berkeley.edu (Class Account)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Essay

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>This pattern cannot be ignored! It most definitely says something
>about Heinlein. (Even in that old book of his, _Waldo and Magic,
>Inc._ that I have lying around, (which I haven't read yet --
>sorry), the cover summaries imply that it deals with one single guy
>who "owns" Earth! The cover blurb sure makes it sound like this guy
>is going to be the protagonist, though by now, this should not
>surprise people too much.)

Please, Kev (may I call you Kev?).  Remember that the blurbs on the
back of books are not written by the author, and sometimes bear
shockingly little resemblence to the actual contents of the book.
Whether you are right or not about _Waldo_ (_Magic, Inc._ is a
separate short story in the same book), you're not doing your
readers a service with this kind of guess.

Also, use of a character in any role, even the main role, even in
many books, is still not to be considered author approval of that
character.  Think about the protagonists of many of Shakespeare's
tragedies.  One doubts that Othello or Lear represent their author's
moral or political views....Characters are used because the author
has found an interesting story to tell about that person.  His idea
of what is interesting no doubt reflects his political views, but he
may find characters interesting whose political and moral views are
totally repugnant to him.  (Or her.)

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 20:47:13 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

> ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer)
>> snuggle@rpiacm.UUCP (Chris Andersen)
>> [Heinlein's message is to defy all authority, even his]
> This, I would venture, is the best counter argument so far to
> the essay about _Moon_ I posted a while back.

Oh, come ON.  Ignoring all the more powerful arguments against you
won't make them go away.  What about the fact that the
"self-contradiction" Heinlein is accused of is really a mismatch
between Heinlein and one of his characters?  How about the fact that
the nature of any "authority" Heinlein may have is in no way
comparable to the "authority" his characters overtly bid us to
question or resist?  Or how about the fact that *even* *if* the book
were conceptually incoherent as a paen to anarchism (and note that
it is actually neither incoherent, nor a paen to anarchism) it would
still be a ripping good story?

Face it, that essay is a crock of gibberish.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 21:02:22 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

> allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery)
> I will just mention one thing: In the 3/4 of THE CAT WHO WALKS
> THROUGH WALLS that was readable, Heinlein shows the future of the
> Lunar society of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.  'Tain't utopia.
> One suspects that he knew what was going on...

Including me, I'd make that "Two suspect that he knew what was going
on..."  And I'd be unsurprised if there were more.  In fact, one
doesn't even need to drag in "Cat" as support for the rather obvious
point that the essay is all wet when it claims that Heinlein is
setting up Lunar society as a utopia.  There is plenty of internal
evidence in "Mistress" that Mannie was looking at things (and thus,
perforce, WE were looking at things) through heavily rose-tinted
optics.

Not that Mannie is all *that* deluded.  I think the essayist is
making a silly mistake in that when Mannie is describing how things
*actually* work on the Moon, the essayist seems to assume he is
prescribing how Mannie (and, ludicrously, Heinlein) think they
*ought* to work in an ideal society.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 21:06:10 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>   The Prof's character, in my opinion, is *loaded* with
> contradictions. I think he is an elitist, not a libertarian. I
> don't think he feels morally obliged to do anything for anyone but
> himself.

First of all, this is hardly a contradiction.  It doesn't even
contradict what little the Prof said about his own views on
morality.  Second, it hardly seems implausible that the Prof is
attempting to save the moon from the clear and present danger of
starvation.  His motives in this could be many things, including
love of his comrades in general, or his close friends in particular,
even if not concern for his own skin.  And again, it is hardly a
"contradiction" for him to do this by cheating and stealing and
acting against the expressed (though naive) wishes of the people on
the moon in general.  Would you steal (or commit vandalism, or
assault, or whatever) to prevent murder?  This is, in essence, what
the Prof was about, and he made no bones about it.  The claim to
find this a "contradiction" in his character is at best absurd, and
at worst willfully obtuse.

> Maybe this is one of the things the "Essay" was trying to point
> out -- the Prof is *not* a libertarian.  No matter *what* he keeps
> *claiming* to be.

Since the Prof never claimed to be a libertarian, it is hardly very
clever of the "Essay" to point out that he does not seem to be one.

Now, one can point out that Heinlein's characters are often elitist,
and it may possibly be that Heinlein is himself.  But this boils
down to "I don't like TMIAHS because I disagree with some subtextual
message in it."  Which is still fine... but that doesn't make it a
bad story, or self-contradictory, or uninteresting.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1987 10:16 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Why do Heinlein's books get people angry?

Could it be that they present counter-examples to ideas that people
feel strongly about - physical handicaps, theology, racism, sexism,
ageism, etc. For example, and in no particular order:

Samuel Delany points out that in "Star Ship Trooper" the narrator is
Black.  Others have suggested that two characters in the same book
are homophobic.

In "Waldo" the hero is almost totally paralised.

In "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" the narrator has only one arm and
is apparently part Hispanic. The "Loonies" are clearly part Russian.
They are are rejects - criminals and/or political deportees - or
descended from them. One "hero" is an anarchist revolutionary from
South America. He suggests that Jefferson was also an anarchist!

In "The Green Hills of Earth" the hero is blind.

In "Friday" the hero is female and appears initialy to be in a
similar situation as an early mail hero (from "Assignment in
Eternity"). Both characters are targets because of their genetics.

"Revolt in 2000" is about a diverse group of dissenters attempting
to break a religiously motivated and structured government.
Following stories in the series (such as "Coventry") explore the
handling of those who are different in a "sane" society. In
"Methusalah's Children" a minority is persecuted because of their
genetic endowment - and escape.

In the above RAH presents an scientifically based Darwinian model
which may disturb some people. In the following he does the reverse:

"Magic Inc" is set in a cosmos where traditional magic works but in
other respects is a typical USA culture.

In "The Number of the Beast"(666)

(*SPOILER*)
there are four narrators. The older female that ends up in charge.
To some extent the two of the four heroes are a counter-example
against "ageism".

An upper class Britisher with a fairly typical set of prejudices
turns up as a villain. On the other hand the real villains
("vermin") seem to become parts of the author's plot machinary.

In 666 an earlier pair of heroes (from "Revolt in 2000" and
"Methusalah's Children") re-appear - one as bisexual and the other
as trans-sexual.

666 describes several alternative or possible "Earths" and in each
it is clear that the cultures are very different - For example: a
Bible based religion where people go to church naked, and a notion
of justice based on 'an eye for an eye'. It is possible that "our"
Earth is dismissed by Hilda as a bad place to have a child.

(*End of SPOILER*)

"Stranger in a Strange Land" explores of religious prejudice and
persecution.  The most sympathetic characters work in a traveling
carnival. It describes a theology that is blasphemy to some
Christian denominations.

On the other hand the fundamentalist narrator of "Job" is presented
sympathetically while being slowly educated in tolerance. His
apotheosis is well worth waiting for.

By The Way
(*SPOILER*)

Is there a likeness between the cosmos of "Job" and Branch Cabell's
Poictesme Universe?

(*End of SPOILER*)

Personally - I like RAH's books because they are readable and
entertaining.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 16:45:38 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Heinlein is a complex writer.  He has explored an enormous range of
human societies and an enormous range of possible relations between
men and women.  I used to have great fun innocently handing STARSHIP
TROOPERS to flower children types who 'just loved' STRANGER IN A
STRANGE LAND and were desperate for another book by the same author.

Similarly, people who think Heinlein's females are just pretty faces
and sex objects are easily refuted by a long list of strong, tough,
independent examples.

There are also several refuting examples for Sherry's more complex
complaint that the strong women, while there, are always there to
fulfill some man's fantasy of being 'man enough to conquer and hold
such a woman'.

Remember GLORY ROAD?  Remember how all through the book 'our hero'
is getting his fantasy of being a real hero created, played to,
bolstered up, by Star and Rufo?  Remember how she calls him 'my
lord' and lets him dominate her in all sorts of things?  Remember
his rude awakening in the last part of the book?  Rufo (the supposed
groom who has done all the scut work on the quest while Star catered
to our hero's fantasy) has promised to explain all when the quest is
over.  He starts with a pretty deflating message for a fantasy hero
who thinks he's won the fair princess by force of arms.  "Well, son,
she's really the Empress of twenty universes --and my grandmother."
Things go steadily downhill from there, as Oscar realizes that the
'fair princess' he has married picked him up and trained him for one
specific mission (where he was the dumb strength and she took care
of strategy and tactics) and now, although grateful, is revealed as
so far beyond him in age, knowledge, understanding, power and
responsibility as to make him feel childish.  He hangs around for a
while, learning all the lessons that have usually been reserved for
beautiful naive young women who marry men considerably 'above' them.
He doesn't fit into her working life, and can't really comprehend
what it is she does.  He doesn't even really fit into her social
life, except as an ornament and a plaything in bed.  He has no real
work and is of no real use; and all her efforts to make him feel
better only make him feel worse, because they are so obviously
make-work.  He eventually leaves.

Have you read THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST?  Do you remember that the
whole first part of the book is basically an exercise in pointing
out that in order to survive the passengers in a 'lifeboat' had
better have a captain who is obeyed unquestioningly?  Do you
remember who turns out to be the only capable captain?  Not the
fantasy hero type, not the brilliant computer programmer, not the
genious scientist, but Hilda Burroughs, all round reniassance woman
with a gut instinct for organization and command.  Note that she is
shown, not only as the best captain, but also as the only one
capable of getting the rest of the 'crew' (even her husband) to
recognize her superiority for command.

Do you remember the ultimate non-sexist love scene constructed by
Heinlein in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE?  Two minor characters who know of
one another only by professional reputation (from dossier's that
carefully leave out trivial details like sex) meet while working in
isolation suits so concealing that they have no idea of the other's
looks.  He is a short slight man.  She is a big woman.  They get to
know and admire one another while wearing the suits.  He invites her
to spend a night with him assuming she's a man.  She accepts
thinking he's a woman.  When they get out of the suits both are a
bit suprised but they decide to have the night together anyway.

Heinlein has been exploring POSSIBLE relations between men and
women, not pushing one set that he finds 'politically correct'.  His
works should be enjoyed on that basis.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 14:08:54 GMT
From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road"

Carole Ashmore writes:
>There are also several refuting examples for Sherry's more complex
>complaint that the strong women, while there, are always there to
>fulfill some man's fantasy of being 'man enough to conquer and hold
>such a woman'.

I can't comment on the other works mentioned, but I couldn't let
this one go past.

>Remember GLORY ROAD?  Remember how all through the book 'our hero'
>is getting his fantasy of being a real hero created, played to,
>bolstered up, by Star and Rufo?  Remember how she calls him 'my
>lord' and lets him dominate her in all sorts of things?  Remember
>his rude awakening in the last part of the book?  [Synopsis of
>Oscar & Star's rel'nship is a role-reversal of "beautiful naive
>young women who marry men considerably 'above' them"]

Oh, come on!  Here we have the (supposedly) wisest person "in the
twenty universes", and the best way she can come up with to handle
the situation is to fall back on the old "manipulate the man using
sex" routine?!!!  I'd hardly call that an enlightened or liberated
view of women.  In fact, the book nauseated me.

Kay
k@mit-eddie.UUCP
kay@MIT-XX.ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #211
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #211
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 211

Today's Topics:

            Books - Cabell (2 msgs) & Card & Chandler &
                    Cherryh & Fast (2 msgs) & 
                    Friedman (2 msgs) &
                    Spider Robinson & Tevis & 
                    Tolkien & Yarbro

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 87 08:05:56 EDT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: Cabell

  While in the topic of fantasy a few years ago somebody (Del Rey)
repackaged a set of books by James Branch Cabell(??). They were
written in the 1920(s) and thoroughly delightful.The man had a way
with words and an incredibly dry sense of humor. I loved them so
much I lent them away and now I wish I had them back.

  If anyone knows where to get them please tell me. If you haven't
read them check them out.

Jerry Freedman,Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 04:33:56 GMT
From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE)
Subject: Re: Cabell

I'm glad that people out there have read Cabell.  Unfortunately, one
of the man's problems is that almost all of his books are written in
the same style.  Since he's got scores of volumes in his rudely
interconnected fantasy series, it's tough to get through so much of
a sameness.
   However, his writing is delightful, at least for a few books.
I'd recommend you read "Jurgen", a delightful send up of censorship
that was nearly barred from the us in 1922 when first published
(long before Miller's Tropic of Cancer(or was it Capricorn?)).
Wonderful obscenity trial that.  Then there's "Figures of Earth"
where the man does irreparable damage to the story of the life of
Christ.  Then there's "The Silver Stallion", where Arthurian romance
takes it on the chin.  With luck, you will be able to find at least
"Jurgen" in the SF paperback section (also try pop or general lit
paperbacks) in a big used bookstore.  If it has used copies of books
by E.R. Eddison, it should be big enough to have "Jurgen" with a
high degree of possibility.  For reading purposes, adequate
libraries should have some of Cabell's books.  However, the only
library I know with a copy of "Hamlet Had An Uncle..." is the
Library of Congress.  Some of Cabell's work is very hard to find.
   Perhaps, for this day and age, the important thing about Cabell's
work is that it presents to us a non-Tolkienian model of purest
fantasy.  I'd swear Robert Asprin had read some Cabell before he
began working on the Myth Series.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 21:05:43 MDT
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Orson Scott Card scripts Mormon cartoon feature

I rarely pay much attention to movies, so forgive me if this has
already been talked to death...

Paging through the University of Utah student newspaper, I came
across a curious ad whose headlines screamed THE MOST INCREDIBLE
SUMMER JOB EVER!!! -- ANIMATED STORIES FROM THE BOOK OF MORMON.
Some organization called The Living Scriptures is recruiting student
labor for this project and screened a 'sneak preview' in the Student
Services Building yesterday.  The ad displays a very Disneyesque
scene featuring crumbling walls and a crowd of people in Biblical
costume.  The director is Richard Rich (THE BLACK CAULDRON, WINNIE
THE POOH), the score is by Lex De Azevedo ('conductor of the London
Philharmonic') and the script is by Orson Scott Card.

One can only hope that Card improves on the turgid prose of his
sources.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

PS -- Some people have theorized that the Book of Mormon started out
as a fantasy novel written around 1800 in the style of the King
James Bible; if that's true, then the Disney treatment seems even
more appropriate for it.  After all, if they can do ALICE IN
WONDERLAND...

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 04:10:41 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Bertram Chandler

I don't know about everyone else on the net, but I'm a real fan of
the novels by Bertram Chandler, with John Grimes (I think).
Unfortunately, I don't have any of the novels and can't seem to find
them in the stores.  The one title that comes to mind is "The Far
Traveller". Anyhow, does anyone out there have a listing of the
books he's written?  Does anyone know if the guy is still alive and
writing?  (If he's not writing, I don't care :-).

Thanks,

David L. Smith
sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave
ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave
hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 16:08:16 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Pell?

aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes:
> have heard many references to Pell there and other places but
> don't remember much about it in any of her books.  Does she have a
> book or short story that talks about Pell?  Pell is the first
> encounter with another sentient race?  Have I missed an important
> event in the future?  Oh darn!  I will have been late again!

Pell, or Pell's World, is referred to as Downbelow, by the
inhabitants of DOWNBELOW STATION, which is the title of the novel
that won Cherryh a Hugo in 1982.  Many people consider it her best
book.  The first chapter of the book might better be considered an
introduction (the story starts in chapter two) and details the slow
exploration of humans out from earth by creating 'star stations' as
stepping stones.  In this chronology, Pell is the first world where
intelligent aliens are encountered.  The novel MERCHANTER'S LUCK
takes place just after the events in DOWNBELOW STATION, and has a
few minor characters in it who were in DOWNBELOW STATION.  Much of
it's action takes place at Pell.  Pell is also mentioned briefly in
the novelette SCAPEGOAT where it is said that the main character,
John DeFranco, was born on Pell station.  This novelette links the
universe and culture of the 'Pell' series with that of 'The Faded
Sun' trilogy.  The major that DeFranco reports to is Surtac, as was
Sten Duncan in 'The Faded Sun' books.  Consider yourself very lucky,
having these yet to read; all three of them are among her best work.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 08:26:20 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: THE LEAGUE OF GREY-EYED WOMEN

From:   LT Sheri Smith USN      <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
> ...I am amazed that no one has yet mentioned this book in my 8 or
> so months on this net. So help me, I cannot remember the author's
> name, but this book ranks right up there in my top 20 favorite SF
> books.  It's been years since I've seen it, and its probably long
> since out of print...Has anyone read it besides me???  And, who is
> the author??

Well, I'd be amazed if it *had* been discussed, especially in the
last eight months; it's not exactly a popular classic. I read it, or
at least, I read the original shorter version that ran in VENTURE SF
MAGAZINE back around 1970. I thought it was OK, but hardly memorable
(literally --- I had forgotten it completely until your posting
reminded me of it). Anyways, the author is Julius Fast, brother of
sf and historical novelist Howard Fast. The novel hasn't been in
print that I know of since it first appeared in paperback in the
early 70's.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  9 May 1987 07:39:23-PDT
From: fusci%showit.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Ray Fusci)
Subject: Re: Author request

Julius Fast, _THE_LEAGUE_OF_GREY-EYED_WOMEN_, PYRAMID, 1971, ISBN
515-2574 (I guess that would be 0-515-02574-0 now)

This book is classified as "Suspense", rather than "Science
Fiction", so most of us probably wouldn't have run across it at the
bookstore (my copy was a present from one of my mother-in-law's
forays into a used-book store.)

"JULIUS FAST is a medical journalist and is the author of many
books, including: _The_Beatles_, _Blueprint_for_Life_,
_What_You_Should_Know_ About_Human_Sexual_Response_, and
_Body_Language_."

Ray Fusci
ARPA:   fusci@scotch.dec.com
UUCP:   ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 23:49:34 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: C.S. Friedman's  "In Conquest Born"

At last, someone who writes like Frank Herbert would like to but
never did.

A book full of subtle (and not-so-subtle) manipulation, feints
within feints, and quick turnabouts, lacking nothing but the self-
congratulatory chapter headings that Herbert was so pleased with.

I'll have to agree with Chuq on the **** rating.  Friedman's
universe is quite convincing, and has enough reality of its own to
make character types like "Braxana'" and "Azean" useful concepts.
(Heinlein says that writers with imagination and style actually
create the universes they write about, on some weird plane.  If he's
right, there's now one more nifty universe among the 6^6^6.)

The book is difficult to put down, since the action is one long
crescendo from start to finish.  (Sort of a literate Ravel's
Bolero.)

Bravo (brava?), C.S.    Your audience awaits more.

Steve Rapaport
U. of Waterloo
...!ihnp4!watmath!watcgl!sjrapaport

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 17:09:47 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: C.S. Friedman's  "In Conquest Born"

>I'll have to agree with Chuq on the **** rating.  Friedman's
>universe is quite convincing, and has enough reality of its own to
>make character types like "Braxana'" and "Azean" useful concepts.

I find it fascinating that "In Conquest Born" has been the only book
I can remember where everyone who's discussed it on SFL has liked
it.  The WORST comment I've seen on it to date is "It isn't as good
as you think it is, chuq, but it's good" (or some such).  Such
unanimity in this group is rare, and I think it says more for the
quality of this work than anything else.

I've heard through mutual friends that the Wollheims had great hopes
for this book -- hopes that look to be coming true.  This may turn
out to be the find of the year (and maybe the book of the year,
although it is much too early to tell).  It is definitely going to
be at least as big as Tailchaser's Song was (TS has sold over
100,000 paperback, plus a strong hardback sale in the U.S.  It has
also sold in four foreign markets, and the Italian hardcover was a
national bestseller...)

It just goes to show that (1) a good first novel will get published;
(2) a good first novel will make money for the author and the
publisher; and (3) they ARE publishing good books out there.  It is
just a matter of finding them. You folks can go out and complain
about the latest Asimov or Heinlein retread, I've found that by
searching out and reading the new authors I've run into a LOT of
really neat fiction.  Many of the books are simply average (but then
so is, to me, most of the work of the Big Names who don't need to
stretch any more to make money) but you'll also find the new ideas,
new trends, and new stars that way.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 02:58:15 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: Telepathy a curse, not a blessing

ag4@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Anne Louise Gockel) writes:
> Apparently Robinson's _Callahan's Crosstime Saloon_ and
> _Callahan's Secret_ have just been re-released by Berkley books.
> I believe they were out of print for a number of years...

I don't know about reprinting, but the second Callahan's Place book
is _Time_ Travelers_Strictly_Cash_.  _Callahan's_Secret_ is the
third book (though Robinson insists that that doesn't REALLY make it
a trilogy) and reveals a lot (and therefore should not be read (*I*
think) before or between the others).  Also, it just came out last
year in paperback (I'm pretty sure of this, though not positive,
because the last story in it, "The Mick of Time," was in Analog a
little before that).

jed hartman
...{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 20:43:55 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Post holocaust book search

howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard) writes:
> My sister is looking for a book she read several years ago.  It's
> post holocaust and people have lost technical knowledge.  There is
> one person, who is really an android, who keeps things working.

The book is _Mockingbird_, by Walter Tevis. It isn't really
"post-holocaust", in the sense that there was no nuclear war, but it
does deal with the survival of humanity and related issues. I
thought it was pretty good.

John

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 18:01:56 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion

mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
> Gandalf, on the other hand, serves mostly as a distraction (for
> both the reader and the Bad Guys!); he's very powerful, when he is
> not actively thwarted, he is deliberately trying to look like the
> center of the action, which he never really is after the first
> book.  The one real action he takes after that point is to expell
> Saruman from Orthanc, and even that is a bit of a decoy.

I would take some exception to the point about Gandalf.  Without
him, the West would have fallen.  Ever since he came from across the
Sea, he strove to fight Sauron ("I was the Enemy of Sauron", Return
of the King, p. ?).  He (along with the other Istari) established
the White Council to use their combined powers to thwart Sauron's
plan.  It was he who entered Dol Guldur twice and came out with
Thrain's map and ring.  This enabled Thorin's expedition to succeed,
which had three major consequences: 1) Bilbo found the Ring; 2)
Smaug was destroyed; 3) A major Dwarf kingdom was founded in
friendship with the Men of Dale inside the Lonely Mountain.

It was Gandalf who then asked the Rangers to guard the Shire from
harm for many years.  It was he who convinced Bilbo to give up the
Ring to Frodo.  It was he who "guided" Frodo along the correct way
to destroy the Ring.  It was he who brought Theoden out of his
lassitude and "restore" Rohan.  It was he who brought back the
scattered remnants of Erkanbrand's legion to help Theoden at the
Battle of Helm's Deep and allow the Riders of Rohan to help turn the
tide at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.  It was he who cast out
Saruman and allowed Aragorn the chance to use the palantir to cause
Sauron to strike at Gondor before he was fully prepared.  It was he
who instigated the final strategy of marching to the Black Gate with
only 6000 men to allow the Ringbearer the chance to fulfill his
mission.

He is the Saviour of the West.

I agree with everything else Mr. Wingate said, but I could not let
Gandalf get slighted in this manner.

Jeff Okamoto
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 17:06:25 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Yarbro's St. Germaine Series

>> Can someone post or send me a list of the book in Chelsea Quinn
>> Yarbo's St.  Germaine Series?
>
>In order of publication:
>HOTEL TRANSYLVANIA
>THE PALACE
>BLOOD GAMES
>PATH OF THE ECLISPE
>TEMPTING FATE
>THE ST. GERMAINE CHRONICLES    [novelettes]

Please note that with the exception of St. Germaine Chronicles (the
least-good of the bunch in my mind) everything is out of print
currrently except through the SFBC.  The good news is that Tor has
bought the whole thing (except The Palace, whose rights haven't
reverted yet, but will soon) and will be bringing it back out.  Even
better news is that Yarbro has sold six more novels in the series to
Tor, all about Olivia in various time periods.  The first is due out
in (I believe) August in paperback, and they'll be out yearly after
that.

yay!

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 May 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #212
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #212
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 212

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 01:28:01 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Attendance at programming

G. T. Samson writes:
>Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no
>programming?  Do people think it's "good" not to attend
>programming?

The first couple of conventions I went to (in the early 80's), about
the only thing I went to was the programming.  After that, the
quantity of SCIENCE in the programming seemed to decrease rapidly,
so I lost interest.  I still go to a few panels but not many.

I have since discovered other aspects of cons which are more
interesting: (the masquerade, for example).

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 23:17:51 GMT
From: seismo!sun!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave W. Berry)
Subject: Re: Attendance at programming

Myself and a rather sizable number of my friends attend virtually
every con within reach.  Our motivation is almost solely to see and
talk to neat people (>NOT< the authors and usually not panelists) We
usually try to attend one panel, but rarely make more than that.
Perhaps we're not the norm, but then again, does fandom have a norm?

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp
dwb@Delphi
dwb@apple.com
(408)293-0752

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 20:01:32 GMT
From: umix!umich!msudoc!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: conventions/guardians

From: nico@OLDBORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Nico)
>Waivers of responsibility have been used by different groups
>before.  Notably at the Pennsic War, they are required of anyone
>under 18 AND someone has to be responsible for you at the war.
>Since this event is about 4000 people, it's a good example of lots
>of rowdy, lively people, and it seems to work. *BUT* It's 20 miles
>from town,

I hate to throw a wet blanket on this example - but Boskone isn't the
only group changing its rules this year.

In addition to changes in how hucksters are handled and misc other
new rules noone under 18 will be allowed on the Pensic site w/o
their parent or legal guardian.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee}!msudoc!beach
Michigan State University
Computer Lab., Systems Devleopment

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 13:53:55 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: con program attendance

spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes:
>Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no
>programming?  (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went
>to... but I got curious this year.)  Do people think it's "good"
>not to attend programming?

Well Gregory,

Speaking as a convention runner as well as attendee.  It's my
impression that people don't attend convention programming that
much, because so little thought and effort goes into it.

You can see the committee..."we'll have a writers panel, and an
artists panel, and...".  If you've been to a couple of conventions
you've seen all these things.  Also, you've seen all the sf authors,
ST actors and NASA reps you ever wanted to.  The other problem is,
if you have a panel that will draw 50 people and put it into a 500
person ballroom, you get a big empty room.  Put it in a 75 person
meeting room, and you have a good crowd.  People are attracted by a
good crowd, and the close-in feel adds to interraction.

If you are running a con, and want your programming to succeed, here
is the Rich Kolker programming advice information set:

   Hold a large number of programs in smaller rooms, rather than a
   limited number in large rooms (this is more work).

   Think had to come up with interesting topics.  These need not be
   directly scince fiction related (some of the best programming I
   ever did was on nuclear power [ a debate], the future of
   education, and freedom of the press)

   Go outside the normal sf groups for speakers.  Try local
   colleges, business and industry, special interest groups,
   government (not just NASA), non-sf writers, the school systems...

No guarantees, but a little effort in programming will go a long
way.  At one point in the 10th Anniversary August Party, there were
13 different activites (3 panels, 2 films, 3 video, dealers,
art-show, a history room, con suite...okay only 12) going on at one
time.  This was for a 600-700 person con, fan run, with a 12 person
committee all holding full time jobs.

Enough time on the soapbox.  Get to work, I want to attend some
programming!

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 16:27:54 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Attendance at programming

>Myself and a rather sizable number of my friends attend virtually
>every con within reach.  Our motivation is almost solely to see and
>talk to neat people (>NOT< the authors and usually not panelists)

Speaking for me, I get to two or three cons a year (Baycon, Octocon
when they have it, Westercon sometimes, and this year Worldcon) and
I go to many of the panels, because I still find the information and
the interplay between the panelists and the audience interesting.

Much as I hate to point this out, if nobody goes to panels at cons
(and nobody is such a definite term) then (1) why do they have
panels in the first place, and (2) who are all those people at the
panels? I certainly HOPE some folks still go to panels, since I'm
going to be on some at the next couple of cons....

While I think there is a group of people that don't 'do' panels,
there is also a group that does.  Making generic assumptions is
never safe.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 17:46:54 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Boskone, yet once again

>Anyway, about Boskone, I can't see why they don't make it
>first-come first-served. It would be easier to manager, rather than
>trying to figure out whether this guy had gone to 3 of the last 5,
>or maybe only 2 of the last 5 but 3 of the last 6 and he was
>pre-registered, and so on.

A first come, first serve policy would be much simpler than the
proposed policy for Boskone 25 *IF* reducing the size of the con was
the only criterion. IN ADDITION, Nesfa also wants to keep out the
hooligans that made so much trouble at Boskone 24. First come, first
served does not handle this problem. The proposed eligibility rules
are an attempt to address this problem.

Danny Low

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1987 12:14 EDT
From: Ben Yalow <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Boskone 25 - OFFICIAL

The following letter is being sent to all members of Boskone 24, and
is also being distributed via electronic means.

  Dear Boskone 24 Member:

  First of all, we want to thank everyone who responded to our
  special request for extra help at the convention. Many of you
  helped make Saturday and Sunday work very well this year. The
  convention received a lot of help from many people who'd never
  helped at a convention before. We appreciated the number of fans
  and pros who took the time to talk to us (and to the hotel) about
  their concerns over the vandalism and disruptions at the con.

  Despite this, the Sheraton-Boston has decided that it does not
  want to host Boskone 25. The hotel's primary complaint was that we
  were an intense, 24-hour-a-day convention. People were wandering
  all parts of the hotel at all hours of the night and into the
  early morning. The minor vandalism Friday was undoubtedly another
  reason, in large part because it made the hotel management edgy
  about little things they otherwise might have ignored. Some of the
  problems were not caused by convention members---we had many more
  people crashing the con than ever before. We also had more people
  than ever before who seemed to be interested not in SF but in
  having a wild party weekend.

  Boskone 25 will be very different from the last few Boskones.
  Since none of the major Boston hotels would accept Boskone for
  next year, Boskone will not be held in Boston, and will therefore
  be much smaller. There isn't a hotel complex in the region that
  can support a 4,000+ person SF convention, so we must institute a
  membership cap. We will probably be changing the date from the
  announced date of February 5-7, 1988. Most important, we will be
  refocusing the activities of Boskone. We hope to bring back
  ``Classic Boskone,'' to replace the ``New Boskone'' of recent
  years.

  New Policies for Next Year

  We are implementing a number of new policies next year to make
  Boskone smaller, better, and more of an event that the committee
  and the hotels will want to hold, and that the members will enjoy.

          We will have a membership limit. The exact number will
          depend upon the facilities used. We anticipate that the
          membership limit will be between 1,500 and 2,000 people.
          We will probably not be selling at-the-door memberships.
          Boskone had over 4100 attending members this year, and
          about 300 more who bought memberships but didn't come to
          the convention. The attendance limit for 1988 means that
          over half of the people who attended Boskone 24 will be
          unable to attend Boskone 25.

          All convention functions (including the Con Suite and
          Filksinging) will shut down by about 2 AM.

          Boskone wants parties to be gatherings where fans can get
          together to talk, rather than bashes for rowdy party
          animals to get smashed together. There will be a strict
          no-alcohol policy for open (public) parties. Boskone will
          do nothing to promote parties in any way (there will be no
          seeding, and we will not be listing parties in Helmuth).
          Furthermore, the Con Suite will not be a place to eat and
          party all night long. Instead, it will be what it was
          originally intended to be--a place for fans to get
          together and talk. It will be open until about 2 AM, and
          will serve limited refreshments (mostly soda and fruit
          juice).

          No one under 18 years of age will be admitted without a
          parent or guardian. If you are under 18, please see the
          paragraph on the back entitled ``Age Restrictions.''

          The Hucksters' Room and Art Show will have to be smaller,
          but we will try to maintain the quality. The Hucksters'
          Room will shrink from 135 tables to about 60. The Art Show
          will shrink from 170 panels to about 100.

          We do not want people wearing hall costumes at Boskone. No
          awards will be given for hall costumes. No weapons may be
          brought into public areas at Boskone. We are defining
          staffs and chains as weapons, as well as swords, and toy
          ray guns.

          Only convention members will be permitted to reserve rooms
          in the convention hotel at the convention rate. All
          requests for hotel rooms will be funneled through the
          committee for membership verification.

          Badge-checking will be more thorough. Some of our problems
          this year were caused by walk-ins who didn't bother to
          join the con. We will have extra security in 1988
          specifically aimed at checking badges.

          Program and activities at the convention will be focused
          on written science fiction, SF art, fandom, and science.
          Main program will probably shrink from 6 tracks to 3, with
          fewer rooms for discussion groups and no programming after
          midnight. We won't have a game room. There won't be a
          separate film program; a few films may be integrated into
          the main program.

  What Won't Change

  Boskone 25 will continue its strong tradition of a rich and varied
  SF-related program, emphasizing the classics of SF literature.
  Programming will continue to have fan items and science items.
  Boskone will continue to have one of the best Art Shows you'll see
  anywhere and a Hucksters' Room in which you can find almost any
  book you might want. We'll continue to provide a Con Suite where
  fans can mingle. We'll continue to do things efficiently and
  without hassling you. We'll continue other Boskone and fannish
  traditions: Dragonslair, Babysitting, the Meet-the-VIPs Party, the
  Regency Tea, and Filksinging. In short, we will continue to put on
  the best con we can.

  We feel that we are returning to what Boskone was like 7 or 8
  years ago, rather than departing from some ``traditional''
  Boskone. We hope that many fans who haven't attended in several
  years because they felt too crowded will come back next year. We
  also hope that people who attend Boskone only for a wild weekend
  of partying will stay home.

  Age Restrictions

  No one under 18 years of age will be admitted without a parent or
  guardian. We apologize to all those responsible teenagers whom
  this will inconvenience. However, this year we saw a number of
  teenagers who seemed to view Boskone not as an SF convention but
  as a frat party. This tends to upset hotels even more than adults
  behaving in this fashion.  We also heard too many disturbing
  reports about teenagers saying that Boskone was a ``great party
  con.'' We don't want to exclude teenagers who are really
  interested in SF, so there are a few exceptions to this rule.
  Teenagers who have worked at Boskone or another major convention,
  who belong to an established SF club (such as NESFA, MITSFS, the
  Lunarians, etc.) which has other members attending Boskone, or who
  are known to us are definitely welcome. (If you are interested in
  SF, join one of the clubs in your area. If you don't know how to
  find one, contact us.)

  What Next

  Boskone 25 will not have a general mailing. For most of you
  receiving this letter, it will be the last mailing you'll get from
  us. Boskone 25 will be publicized only in fannish sources (e.g.,
  Instant Message, Locus, SFC, File 770). Once a site for the next
  Boskone has been selected, Boskone flyers will be sent to a small
  number of specific groups, such as NESFA members and Boskone Life
  members.

  Beginning March 1, 1987, NESFA stopped accepting memberships for
  Boskone 25. We must totally restructure the budget for next year,
  and this takes time. If you send in money for a membership before
  we announce our new rate structure, your check will be returned.

  If you already purchased a membership for Boskone 25 at Boskone
  24, and you don't like the sound of the changes we are proposing,
  we will refund your membership fee on request between now and
  September 1, 1987. In a break with past practice, memberships for
  the 1988 Boskone are not transferable.  Once we have reached our
  membership limit, we will return checks sent in. We do not expect
  to be selling any memberships at the door next year, but if we do,
  the at-the-door rate will be substantially higher than this year's
  rate.

  If you have any suggestions or comments, please write to us. We
  need your help to successfully restructure Boskone, and we are
  very interested in the opinions of science fiction fans and pros,
  especially those who have been attending Boskone regularly over
  the years.

                      Jim Mann     &      Laurie Mann
                           Boskone 25 Co-chairs

  PS: A camera was lost at the last Boskone. If you can describe the
  camera, we will mail it to you.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 May 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #213
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #213
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 213

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Lee &
                           Lewis (3 msgs) & MacAvoy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 07:46:25 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Brust

From: nj <SQCR6W%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>   In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single
> posting about _To Reign in Hell_.  Did no one else read this book,
> or if someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very
> good book?  I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more
> than I did _Brokedown Palace_.

There was much spirited discussion of it when it was first released
in paperback. Personally, I didn't care much for the book, but I
seem to be very much in the minority. I liked the Vlad Taltos books,
as well as BROKEDOWN PALACE (which Steven himself didn't think I'd
like, since I didn't like TO REIGN IN HELL, but I proved him wrong).
I have a copy of his latest, THE SUN, THE MOON, AND THE STARS, but
haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 00:57:10 GMT
From: usenet@jade.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Subject: Re: Brust

SQCR6W@IRISHMVS writes:
>  In all the discussions of SKZB I have yet to see a single posting
>about _To Reign in Hell_.  Did no one else read this book, or if
>someone did, do they not share my opinion that it was a very good
>book?  I don't know about you, but I enjoyed it a lot more than I
>did _Brokedown Palace_.

I found the ideas in _To Reign in Hell_ interesting, but for me, at
least, the experimental writing style didn't work.  Throughout the
book, there are long stretches of dialog with no attributives (Satan
said, etc.).  Even if you were overhearing a conversation between
two unknown persons, in real life you'd at least be able to
distinguish their voices!  I found myself skipping over such
sections because they were almost meaningless without a context to
put them into, and because it was too much trouble to count back and
find out whether the same person who said "a" also said "b".  I also
had a lot of trouble visualizing characters who were identified only
by name, and often not even that....and if I can't imagine how
someone looks, sounds, moves, etc., it's hard for me to keep track
of him/her.
     Please understand that I'm <not> attacking Brust's right to
write in this or any other experimental style; I'm only saying that
for <me> this one was a detriment to the story.

Mary K. Kuhner
c60a-4er@tart27.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 11:42:30 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Brust

     Regarding Reign in Hell v. Brokedown Palace, I've read all 5 of
SKZB's books and like them all.  In fact, the one I like best is
usually the one I've read last.  I'm looking forward to seeing if he
ties Brokedown Palace closer to Vlad.  Also, I'm wondering if he'll
tie Reign in Hell in with these books.  It's clear that raw chaos is
known to the Draegeran from Jhereg.
     Ah, and then there's the still mysterious Devera.  How powerful
*is* she?

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 09:05 PDT
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: Tanith Lee title request

In response to someone's request for info on Books by Tanith Lee.
Tanith Lee is from England, I am from the US, so my list of her
works is probably not complete.  Here are her books that I know of:
(Chronologically listed, Alpha within year).

Year    Title                           Publishings I know of

1971    The Dragon Hoard                MagicQuest
1975 *  The Birthgrave                  DAW
1976 *  Don't Bite the Sun              DAW
1976    The Storm Lord                  DAW/SFBC(2)
1977    Drinking Sapphire Wine          DAW
1977    East of Midnight                St Martins Press/MagicQuest
1977    Valkhavaar                      DAW
1978 *  Night's Master                  DAW/Highland Press
1978    Quest for the White Witch       DAW
1978    Vazkar, Son of Vazkar           DAW  ("Shadowfire" in England)
1979    Companions on the Road          Bantam  (SSC)
1979 *  Death's Master                  DAW/Highland Press
1979    Electric Forest                 DAW/SFBC
1980    Sabella, or the Bloodstone      DAW/SFBC(2)
1980 *  Kill the Dead                   DAW/SFBC(2)
1980    Day by Night                    DAW
1981    Lycanthia                       DAW
1981    Delusion's Master               DAW
1981    Silver Metal Lover              DAW/SFBC
1981    Unsilight Night                 NESFA Press  (SSC)
1982 *  Cyrion                          DAW  (storyline SSC)
1983    Anackire                        DAW/SFBC(2)
1983    Red as Blood                    DAW/SFBC  (theme SSC -
                                           Grim tales)
1983    Sung in Shadow                  DAW
1984    Tamastara, or the Indian Nights DAW  (theme SSC)
1984    The Beautiful Biting Machine    Cheap Street
1985    The Gorgon &other Beastly Tales DAW/SFBC (theme SSC)
1985    Days of Grass                   DAW
1986 *  Dark Castle, White Horse        DAW  (2 stories 1978,1982)
1986    Delirium's Mistress             DAW
1986    Dreams of Dark and Light        Arkham House  (SSC)
1987    Night's Sorceries               DAW

Apr 1, 1988     SFL Digest's Revenge    Network House, Inc.

* - A rating of try these first (you have to read them all, they're
Tanith Lee stories).

CONNECTIONS:

"The Birthgrave":1, "Vazkar, Son of Vazkar":2, and
"Quest for the White Witch":3

 The White Witch trilogy - "The Birthgrave" is an excellent herioc
fantasy story about someone who wakes up with gaps in her memory.
The herione can take care of herself, and as time progresses and she
discovers more about herself, she becomes even more dangerous to
oppose.

"Night's Master":1, "Death's Master":2, "Delusion's Master":3
"Delirium's Mistress":4, "Night's Sorceries":5
 All in her Flat earth series.

 The first two books show her versatility, book 1 - depending on
your view, either 1, 3, or 9 stories all intertwined with many
characters, book 2 - 1 long story with a cast of few (How often do
you see such intended different styles within the same series?) All
the books in this arabian night'ish/fairy tale'ish series are good.

"Drinking Sapphire Wine":1, "Don't Bite the Sun":2
 The Four Bee novels are distopian stories about someone who is
jaded with all the fun to be had, dying for excitement, or parties
to attend, and wants to live another way of life.  (fun future
books)

"The Storm Lord":1, "Anackire":2
Combined as "The Wars of Vis" by SFBC

"Sabella, or the Bloodstone":1, "Kill the Dead":2
 Combined as "Sometimes after Sunset" by SFBC, although the books
are not directly related.  "Sabella" is a future vampire novel on
new Red Mars.  "Kill the Dead" is about a traveling bard ready to
kill any ghosts that may be bothering you.

Other Comments:

"Red as Blood, or Tales from the Sisters Grimmer", is a collection
of her retellings of fairy tales.

"Silver Metal Lover" has been adopted in comic format by Trina
Robbins, published by Harmony Books (1985).

"Lycanthia, or the children of the wolves" is another look at the
story of werewolves.

"Cyrion" is the story about someone seeking Cyrion's aide, from his
sword arm and from his brain to figure out what is going on.  The
someone asks around and listens to tales about Cyrion until he meets
Cyrion, who then helps out.  So it's a many stories within a story
story.  Very good herioc fantasy.  Cyrion is a combination of an
almost invincible swordsman and super sleuth.  I hope she writes
more tales about Cyrion.

"The Dragon Hoard", and "East of Midnight" are more childrens type
stories.  "The Dragon Hoard" rates as one of the Funniest stories
I've ever read.

"Unsilight Night" (1000), "The Beautiful Biting Machine" (127),
"Night's Master" (Highland Press - 500), and "Death's Master"
(Highland Press - 500) are all limited editions with a print run as
listed.  (So they may be a little hard to obtain.)

A long net note (although it would be longer if I reviewed every
book), but very short compared to what the subject matter is.

lance@Logicon.Arpa
Lance Browne,  San Diego, CA

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 May 1987 08:21:56-PDT
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: C.S.Lewis

I also heartily recommend the Perelandra trilogy for those who have
enjoyed the Narnie Chronicles.  Although his Christian philosophies
pervade all of his writing, in both symbolic and subtle ways, Lewis
made advances into science fiction with Perelandra.  I may be coming
off the wall here, but I still suggest the notion that, in this
trilogy, Lewis broke the barrier between fantasy and science
fiction.  The idea of space travel was quite revolutionary for the
time that Lewis was writing.

On the subject of comparisons with Tolkien, I should point out that
Lewis, Tolkien, and Charles Williams (another wonderful author) were
the main members of a literary club at Harvard in England.  They
called themselves The Inklings, and read their evolving work to one
another.  Sometimes Christopher Tolkien was in attendance.  I have a
book called "The Inklings," written by (I believe) Christopher
Tolkien, that describes the club as well as the personal lives of
the three authors.  I found The Inklings to be very interesting
reading -- perhaps the only GOOD writing from Christopher Tolkien.
If I could choose any time/place to go back in time and visit, I
would choose to attend a reading session of The Inklings.

A challenging trivia task: try to find the similarities among the
works of the three authors.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 17:26:34 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: C.S.Lewis

marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>I also heartily recommend the Perelandra trilogy for those who have
>enjoyed the Narnie Chronicles.  Although his Christian philosophies
>pervade all of his writing, in both symbolic and subtle ways, Lewis
>made advances into science fiction with Perelandra.

As a Christian, I can't really judge if the Christian background of
the books would offend others, but I do feel that parts of
Perelandra are really beautifully written.  Lewis wrote somewhere
that the book was a result of the image of a golden ocean with
floating islands having popped into his head, and that the Christian
theme of a new temptation and fall only came in much later.  I don't
really like the first book all that much, though the business of
"translating" Weston's speech to the Eldil can be fun.  The third
book is the strangest, and though good in parts, I feel it doesn't
really work.  It is also very traditionalist about marriage and the
relation between the sexes, in ways that may offend people nowadays.

>On the subject of comparisons with Tolkien, I should point out that
>Lewis, Tolkien, and Charles Williams (another wonderful author)
>were the main members of a literary club at Harvard in England.
>They

That's Oxford, of course, where both Lewis and Tolkien taught, and
where Charles Williams went during the war.

>called themselves The Inklings, and read their evolving work to one
>another.  Sometimes Christopher Tolkien was in attendance.  I have
>a book called "The Inklings," written by (I believe) Christopher
>Tolkien, that describes the club as well as the personal lives of
>the three authors.

The author is actually Humphrey Carpenter, who has also written a
biography of Tolkien.  Because of this, the book focuses mainly on
Lewis and Williams.  As you say, it's really quite good.  One of the
surprises was the importance of Tolkien (the less explicitly
Christian author) in Lewis's conversion.

>A challenging trivia task: try to find the similarities among the
>works of the three authors.

Besides the fact that they shared a rather unique brand of orthodox
Christianity?  Not very easy to do.  Lewis was the unifying factor
in the group.  Tolkien himself did not seem to like Williams all
that much.  They were all deeply involved with literature,
especially medieval literature.  But I see little similarity among
their books, though Williams is clearly the main influence on "That
Hideous Strength".  Tolkien, for example, deeply disliked the
Narnian books.

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 11:51:27 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory

From: obrien@aero2.aero.org
>I feel I must warn those who have not yet read the Narnian
>Chronicles.  Yes, they are some of the best fantasy ever written,
>and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except for the
>last volume.  "The Last Battle" is one of the most heavy-handed
>pieces of Christian allegory it's ever been my misfortune to read.
>Unless you are a born-again Christian (and maybe even if you are)
>this is one to avoid.  It almost spoiled the whole series for me.
>I still reread the other volumes with pleasure, but the magic
>breaks down badly in this little number.  True, the other volumes
>are also allegorical, but they stand on their own.  This one
>doesn't.

   I feel I must stand up in defence of _The Last Battle_.

   There's a right age at which to read the Chronicles. Too early
(say < 9 yrs) and you'll miss the richness of Lewis's writing. Too
late (say > 15 yrs) and you'll get annoyed at the E. Nesbit style
and pick holes in the Narnian universe. (For example - If there were
Talking Beasts in our world, would anyone eat the flesh of even a
non-sapient animal? Yet Narnians eat non-talking venison and pork
sausages. And what was *Father Christmas* of all people doing in
TLTWATW? The animated film was execrable in many ways but it made
the obviously correct change here by having Aslan give the Gifts to
the children himself.)

   I was lucky enough to read _The Last Battle_ at the age of 12. It
had an amazing impact on me (Literally - I walked about in a daze
for a day or two. I didn't even mind my father's driving!). It
seemed, and still seems, absolutely *right* and the only way that
Lewis could wrap up the series before "people got tired of it". You
certainly don't have to be any sort of Christian to enjoy the books.

   I'd be interested to hear of anyone's idea of how Lewis might
have developed Narnia if he had been as obsessive about it as
Tolkien was about Middle Earth.

Peter Kendell
pete@tcom.stc.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 08:19:40 GMT
From: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Re: The Grey Horse

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>I had enjoyed Twisting the Rope because I'm involved in folk music
>(Calendar editor for the Caltech Folk Music Society's newlsetter),
>and

I have to disagree here. I enjoyed Tea with the Black dragon very
much but thought that Twisting the Rope was DREADFUL!!! The worst
thing of all was the cover which purports to depict the instruments
played by the members of the band. It showed :-
   a fiddle - that's OK
   a modern metal flute - Not very likely!!
   an anglo-concertina - the character plays a melodeon.
   a triple harp - again unlikely given the Irishness of the band
   and.....
   a set of Highland pipes - the character plays uillean pipes.

Apart from this the story was utterly boring and had 0 credibility.
I found the folk music stuff pretentious and wrong headed (I'm a
folkie too).

Lindsay F. Marshall
JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs
UUCP: <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay
PHONE: +44-91-2329233

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 May 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #214
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #214
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 214

Today's Topics:

            Films - Bakshi (3 msgs) & Plan 9 (2 msgs) &
                    Quatermass & Stalker & 
                    Good/Bad Movies (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 17:21:31 GMT
From: 6100192@pucc.princeton.edu
Subject: Re: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings"

dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval) writes:
>The "other half" of Lord of the Rings was made and released, about
>4-5 years ago. It is called "Return of the King" and picks up right
>where LotR leaves off (hobbits at Mt Doom and most ev'ryone else
>still under siege.)

I may be mistaken, but if this is the same "Return of the King" that
I remember, then Dan is talking about the version that was produced
by Rankin/Bass, the same people who brought us the animated version
of "The Hobbit".  If this is the film you're thinking of, IT'S
HORRIBLE.  Not only do the elves look like diminutive Vulcans and
the Nazgul like skeletons from "Sinbad", but the viewer is subjected
to at least four songs, which are trite and inappropriate, to say
the least.  Numbered among these tunes is the never-to-be-forgotten
and grotesquely comical Marching Song of the Orcs: "Where there's a
whip, there's a way,/we don't wanna go to war today..."

  Even those who hate Bakshi's work have to agree that even he did a
better Tolkien adaptation than the jokers at Rankin/Bass Now, if
someone had a copy of the second half of *Bakshi's* LoTR, I'd be
very, very interested....

Princeton University
BITNET: 6100192@PUCC
UUCP:{IHNP4:ALLEGRA}!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6100192

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 18:35:30 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: Bakshi's "Lord of the Rings"

dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval) writes:
>The "other half" of Lord of the Rings was made and released, about
>4-5 years ago. It is called "Return of the King" and picks up right
>where LotR leaves off (hobbits at Mt Doom and most ev'ryone else
>still under siege.)

   I will assume that you are referring to the Rankin-Bass fiasco.
The animation is nowhere near Bakshi's quality, the story has been
slightly modified, and it ignores the showdown at Isengard.  On the
whole, I diddn't like it one bit.  It was FAR too campy.

T. Kogoma
cs2633ba@izar.UUCP
cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU
{gatech:unm-la:ucbvax:hc!hi}!unmvax!izar!cs2633ba

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 12:25:19 GMT
From: hplabs!well!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Bakshi: "Wizards" ripoffs, and "Lord of the Rings"
Subject: success

stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish
>someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord
>of the Rings.

They can't.  In an obscure, convoluted, and insane deal, Bakshi only
was able to get the rights to the first two books in the trilogy.
Rankin-Bass owns the rights to The Hobbit and The Return of the
King, and has made films of both of them.  The Return of the King
was a *MUSICAL*, and ranks right up there as one of the most
vomitous pieces of trash I've ever seen.  I mean, orcs singing
"Where There's a Whip, There's a Way" ?!?!

(And no, I'm *NOT* kidding!)

Mike Farren
uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:00 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Plan 9

PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE
sorry, I don't know the perpetrator
(tune: Love Potion Number 9)

There is this movie that you have to see
A stranger movie there will never be
And the aliens are here to destroy the human race
The name of the film is . . . Plan 9 from Outer Space

'Cause the stand-in for Lugosi is just the wrong size
But that's not the only way that this movie dies
Technologically they never worked out all of the kinks
To put it in some other words . . . It really stinks!

To show the good guys here are peaceful men
Our heros slug the bad guys in the end
And they send them flying off in their burining paper plates
All of which is why I love Plan 9 from Outer Space.

I've GOT to see this movie!  Is it out on video?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 22:31:00 GMT
From: jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: Plan 9

I heard this filk sung at the Boskone 24 Filk Concert by Bill Roper;
the correct (?) title is "The People's Choice Award".  It had an
additional verse, sung as the second one:

These guys have got a ray to raise the dead--
They should have used it on the script instead.
But then the way it's acted is a terrible disgrace.
There's nothing that can rescue--Plan 9 From Outer Space.

Roper didn't write this; he accredits it to a person he knows only
as "Chaz 63" (or something like that).  He made a plea at the
concert for information about the true identity of this person, as
he'd like to recored the song and can't do it without the author's
permission (so if Chaz 63 is out there in netland, get in touch with
Bill Roper.)

As for the movie itself...it's great for a laugh, especially if you
see it with a group of friends. Not good for much else, though
(except as a negative example--"This, class, is how NOT to do a
Science Fiction movie.")  I got to see it at the LSC SF Marathon two
years ago; the part I remember best is the way that it goes from
broad daylight to night during a five minute car ride--repeatedly.
They used this stock shot so often the audience started chanting
"Night!  Day! Night! Day!" every time the car showed up...

I don't think you'll be able to get this on tape from the common
video market; you might be able to get a many-generation copy from
some die-hard fan of bad cult classics somewhere out in fandom if
you look long enough.  Good luck.

Jen Hawthorne

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 02:05:30 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: QUATERMASS, etc.

>>> and I wasn't aware of the fourth Quatermass film. I'll look for
>>> THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION this weekend.
>>Did you find it?  What did you think?  It is very different from
>>the others in the series and rather downbeat, but not too bad.
>
>       Couldn't find it, but I'll have my eye out for it from now
> on. When I do find it, I'll let you know what I think.

I have seen it in at least two video stores out here, one not very
big.

> I've never seen the 2nd Quatermass film (QUATERMASS AND THE PIT?),
> either.

That's FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH.

TV play and British film title          American film title
THE QUATERMASS EXPERIMENT               THE CREEPING UNKNOWN
QUATERMASS II                           ENEMY FROM SPACE
QUATERMASS AND THE PIT                  FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH
THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION               <never released to theaters>

In each but the last case there was first a tv play done live, then
a remake on film done by Hammer Films.  Actually the film title for
the first one was THE QUATERMASS X-PERIMENT to play up the fact that
it had been given the adults-only X-certificate.  QUATERMASS
CONCLUSION was done much later for ITV and the film is really just
an edited version of the TV-play.

> Do  you know if [QUATERMASS II's] available on tape?

Brian Donlevy was an alcholic when he made the two Quatermass films
he did.  Nigel Kneale hated the film versions with Donlevy and
claims to have bought up all copies of ENEMY FROM SPACE.  The film
still had very good word of mouth.  I saw ENEMY FROM SPACE as a kid,
but it had disappeared since, somewhat bearing out Kneale's claim.
Then a couple of years ago the Movie Channel was running a science
fiction movie day with a bunch of familiar science fiction films and
QUATERMASS II.  I don't get the Movie Channel but had a couple of
friends who did tape it for me.  (Taking no chances that one might
muff it.)  It was the ENEMY FROM SPACE I remembered, but with the
original title.  Apparently someone found a copy somewhere.  I would
say it is tied with QUATERMASS CONCLUSION for second place in the
series.  So I have all four films on tape.  Kneale has the BBC's
record (a filmed TV-screen) for the TV plays QUATERMASS II and
QUATERMASS AND THE PIT.  The technique hadn't been invented in time
for the first TV play.  At Seacon he showed QUATERMASS AND THE PIT
in six 40-minute segments.  Very impressive.  Particularly since it
is the story of FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH done live on a tv stage.
The ending is much better explained than in the film because Kneale
had more time.  For a while the first three plays were available
from Penguin books (orange cover), then they went out of print.
When ITV did QUATERMASS CONCLUSION, the three plays were reprinted
(blue cover) as well as a novelization, by Kneale, of the fourth
story (called simply QUATERMASS in novel form).

>>It is hard to imagine a Soviet science fiction film being as good
>>as this one is described as being.  Most have not been anything
>>really special.  But there are people who rave about this one and
>>I really am curious.
>
> Perhaps some people's love of the book influences their judgement
> of the film. Only Russian SF (actually, fantasy) film I've seen
> and liked was THE DAY THE EARTH FROZE, a rather quaint filming of
> the Kalevala.  "Good" may be too strong a word, but it had a naive
> charm.
>   Do let me know what you think of SOLARIS, if you ever find
> it.

THE SWORD AND THE DRAGON is kind of fun too.  I believe that DAY THE
EARTH FROZE was a Finnish co-production.  Yeah, it is enjoyable.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 01:14:01 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Solaris & Stalker

EMAILDEV%UKACRL.BITNET@BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>The name of the film is Stalker.

The name of the book is "Picknick on the Roadside" (or something
close to it) by A. and B. Strugatski.  I am not sure about the
traslation quality, I have just recently picked up the book
second-hand and it is on my read queue.

(A side comment: in general, the translation quality from Russian to
English is rather poor.  It gets even worse when the translation is
"second-hand", from French or German)

There are other books by brothers Strugatski published in English,
possibly nolonger in print (I have been picking them up at excellent
discounts).

mild spoiler

The Zone of the movie, the Stalkers and the events in and outside of
the Zone take on a more mystical quality than in the book.  The
movie concentrates on the human issues and personal motivations.
The book, on the other hand, is more concerned with the scientific
and philosophical implications of the "unknowable," events
incomprehensible to the human mind.  The title reflects the idea put
forth by the book, that the Zone is a site where some mysterious
aliens had landed for a night, did whatever they did and then left.
A picknick on the roadside.  The Zone and all its artifacts, then,
are much like the empty cans, candy wrappers and used up flashlight
batteries dumped on the anthill...

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 18:27:45 GMT
From: Susser.pasa@xerox.com
Subject: Good SF Movies

I am truly surprised that with all this discussion about SF movies,
no one has mentioned my all-time SF favorite: FORBIDDEN PLANET. I
have seen this movie five or six times, and it's still captivating
(of course, Ann Francis counts for a lot of that). I'll restrain
myself from excessive drooling here, but I really think this is a
fantastic movie.

Regarding BRAZIL: Yes, this is a wonderful film. It's one of the few
films that has left me with a significant lingering "WOW" feeling.
But I would hesitate to call it science fiction. There was really
nothing in the film that relied on advanced technology or hitherto
undiscovered phenomena. And I don't think I'm being picky here, so
no flames please.

be seeing you

Josh

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 16:41:27 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

Nobody has mentioned two of my favorite SF-movies.  I think that
(now dont laugh) Planet_of_the_Apes (stop laughing!) was a really
good *movie* (not the follow-up movies, or the tv series).  The
whole thing was a neat (but predictable) idea about accidentally
coming back to Earth.

Another good movie was Logans_Run (again, a good movie but not such
a great tv series).

Timothy D. Thomas
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
BITNET: tim@sunybcs.BITNET
CSnet: tim@buffalo.CSNET
UUCP:  {ames,allegra,decvax,rocksanne,rocksvax,watmath}!sunybcs!tim

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  7 May 87  10:56:19 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: sf movies

Just to throw in my $0.02, here's the movies I have (dis)liked:

GOOD SF MOVIES

Alien & ALiens
Terminator
2001 & 2010
The Thing (both of them)
The Black Hole
Dark Star (a satire on the space program)
Saturn 3
Logan's Run
Green Slime (i liked this one)
Fahrenheit 451 (brilliant!)
Spaceship (it was not made to be a serious movie)
Rocky Horror Picture Show ('nuff said)
Little Shop Of Horrors
Videodrome (very, very weird)
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (both of them)
Day the Earth Stood Still
Silent Running
Forbidden Planet
Flash Gordon (so bad it was funny)
Star Wars (all three)
Star Trek I-IV
The Enemy Within
Hangar 18
The Final Countdown
The Philadelphia Experiment
Wavelength
V (I mean only the mini-series)

BAD SF MOVIES

Plan 9 From Outer Space
Eraserhead
Zardoz
Brazil (another failed attempt at a deep movie)
Clone of Frankenstein
Bride of Frankenstein
Attack of the Killer Tomatoes (I hate tomatoes)
The Man With Two Heads
Robot Monster

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 00:38:01 GMT
From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: On a lighter note...

Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>  Aw, *everybody* has a big list of their favorite SF movies. Never
>mind that. How about the WORST SF movies of all time! The dogs on
>the Late Late Show that curdle milk, make the cat's fur fall out,
>and drive your long-suffering mate to drink. Some personal
>"favorites:"
>
>  Plan 9 From Outer Space      Can never be equalled.
>  Battle Beyond The Stars      Came mighty close though, with Richard
>   Thomas.
>  Galaxy of Terror             When the best part of the movie is
>                               seeing Erin Moran's head blow up,
>                               you KNOW you're in trouble.
>  Galaxina                     Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
>  Zardoz                       DOUBLE Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Actually, I liked Zardoz.  Battle Beyond the Stars was a great
tongue-in-cheek remake of The Magnificent Seven which itself was a
remake of The Seven Samurai.  I pretty much agree with your others,
though.

The all time worst I've seen to date is The Alpha Incident.  This
one could give Plan 9 serious competition.  It doesn't even have the
saving grace of being so bad it's laughable.  The blurb on the tape
jacket makes it sound like an Andromeda Strain rip-off, but don't
you believe it.  This turkey would deserve a failing grade in a
freshman film class.

Jerry Hollombe
hollombe@TTI.COM
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (213) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
{csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 May 87 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #215
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 87 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #215
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 215

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 22:47:28 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* SPOILERS *)

barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>       Overall, though, it's best not to assume Heinlein is
> actively in favor of every idea he presents in his novels with
> *apparent* approval. What has always stood out for me in his
> books, more than the semi-libertarian politics, more than the
> advocacy of relaxed sexual mores, more than the idolization of
> family, and of good manners, is that this is a man who likes to
> *play* with ideas, a man who is perfectly happy to play Devil's
> advocate with a straight face, a man who enjoys pricking his
> readers with novel and unsettling notions.
> ...
> But some people don't let that stop them.  They'll cut and squeeze
> and interpret and misinterpret and distort, until they've
> force-fit Heinlein into a pigeonhole they can deal with, and then
> attack this straw man, now neatly packeaged as a Libertarian, or
> anarchist, or fascist, or militarist, or sexist, etc.

The problem is that they persist, even when it is pointed out to
them that they've cut off all the corners and pounded the square
Heinleinian peg into their round straw-lined hole.  And usually from
some rather limited sample of his *fiction* of all things.  Are we
to take it from "Job" that he is a fundamentalist? After all, he has
Judgement day happen just like Revalations says it will.  Are we to
take it from "Misfit" that he's an FDR newdealer?  After all, his
"first mature civilization" runs public works projects much like
those of the depression years.  He's a militarist (or a Nazi) in
"Starship Troopers", a hippie sex pervert in "Stranger in a Strange
Land", and next somebody'll be saying he's an anti-semite because of
something out-of-context ripped from "...If This Goes On".

It seems to me that Heinlein advocates things from all over the
spectrum as fictional, conceptual toys.  The only consistent theme
I've seen is that his protagonists are more competent than usual,
and this is employed in accusing him of "elitism" on the one hand
and poor characterization on the other.  Sigh.  If that's all you
get from noting that all Heinlein's characters are above average,
next you'll be saying that Garrison Keilor is an elitist, because
everybody in Lake Wobegon is exceptional.  ("where all the women are
strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above
average.")

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 20:28:55 GMT
From: rpiacm!snuggle@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>  I applaud you, Chris. This self-negation could possibly be part
>of the message of the book. I kind of wonder though -- Heinlein is
>usually very straightforward when it comes to "The Moral of the
>Story."

  Well, some of the other counter-arguments that came after mine
were pretty good.  It has been my impression for quite sometime that
it is basically impossible to predict what Heinlein's politics are
from his writings.  He is quite capable of assuming many different
positions in his stories and writing them so convincingly that it is
difficult to tell if he actually believes what he is writing.  This
is probably his greatest strength as a writer.

  I wouldn't be surprised if he does this just so people will begin
to think for himself instead of looking to him to show him "the one
true way".  However, whether Heinlein purposely destroyed himself as
an authority figure in MiaHM is debatable.  I just find it ammusing
that the person who thought that Heinlein was advocating anarchy
actually supplied a very good argument to show that we should never
trust authority, a perfectly anarchistic point of view.

Chris Andersen
UUCP: ..!seismo!rpics!rpiacm!snuggle
BITNET: rpiacm!snuggle%csv.rpi.edu@rpitsmts.bitnet
INTERNET: rpiacm!snuggle@csv.rpi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 19:11:09 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Prof. De la Paz contradictions

dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
> As I remember, the Prof claims to be a Rational Anarchist or
> something of the sort.  He definitely does not claim to be a
> libertarian, communist, elitist or whatever.  He had a
> conversation with Wyoming (I forget last name) about that very
> subject.

Knott.  (After all, Wye Knott?)

I agree with Dan's point, except that the term "rational anarchist"
was a descriptive term rather than the name of an organization or
whatnot, and thus should not be (and was not, in the book)
capitalized.  In particular, the Prof makes the point that the group
has no more ethical rights than its members, and he therefore takes
responsibility for his own actions rather than blaming "society" or
"the law" or whatnot.  He also refused to be pinned down as to
general principles of law... when asked, he always particularized
his answer by asking for specific examples.  As far as I can see,
there is no contradiction between the positions of "anarchism" and
"elitism" as outlined by Prof's various monologues and N-ologues in
"Mistress".

But getting back to the conversation between the Prof and Wyoming,
there is further internal evidence that "rational anarchist" was not
the name of an organized group, but was a descriptive term made up
by the Prof on the spot.  Wyoming never heard of that group, and she
was a professional activist, and attempted to keep track of
political groups, and expressed mild surprise that she hadn't heard
the term Prof used to describe himself before.

To repeat the point.  The Prof never outlined in detail his
political philosophy, beyond tagging himself a rational anarchist.
What he meant by this is unclear, but it is fairly clear that this
is not incompatible with the Profs subsequent actions, and it is
further the height of lunacy to use any supposed contradictions
between the Prof's words and his actions as evidence that Heinlein
is confused or self-contradictory.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 22:12:59 GMT
From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress critical essay

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>... the computer predictions that loss of bio-material due to grain
>exports will ruin the lunar ecology to the point where mass
>starvation will occur in 7 years - cannibalism in another 2. De la
>Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies for their own
>good. An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at least Manny)
>thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people to do this or
>that - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD - is totally immoral.
>
>Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined?

I think you have some points of view mixed up.  The relevant quotes
are on p. 63 in my copy:

de la Paz:  For example, under what circumstances may the State
   justly place its welfare above that of a citizen?

Manuel:  Prof, as I see, are *no* circumstances under which State
   is justified in placing its welfare ahead of mine.

(a bit later)
de la Paz: Mannie, the `State' is Luna.  Even though not sovereign
   yet and we hold citizenships elsewhere.  But *I* am part
   of the Lunar State and so is your family.  Would you die
   for your family?

Manuel:  Two questions not related.

de la Paz:  Oh, but they are.  That's the point.

Manuel:  Nyet.  I know my family, opted long ago.

de la Paz:  Dear Lady, I must come to Manuel's defense.  He has a
   correct evaluation even though he may not be able to state
   it.  May I ask this?  Under what circumstances is it moral
   for a group to do that which it is not moral for a member
   of that group to do alone?

Wyoming:  Uh ... that's a trick question.

de la Paz:  It is the *key* question, dear Wyoming.  A radical
   question that strikes to the root of the whole dilemma of
   gonvernment.  Anyone who answers honestly and abides by *all*
   consequences knows where he stands---and what he will die for.

[end of quotes]

Professor de la Paz believes that there are no such circumstances.
For decisions to be right, he must make them, or happen to agree
with them after they are made.  If he believes a decision
sufficiently wrong, he simply does not go along with it---and, if it
comes to it, he is willing die for that.

[Under his rational anarchist system, you may have a lot of dead
people, but they will have known where they stood. :-)]

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690)
Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu
Path:   seismo!mimsy!chris

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 01:35:39 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road"

>>Remember GLORY ROAD?  Remember how all through the book 'our hero'
>>is getting his fantasy of being a real hero created, played to,
>>>bolstered up, by Star and Rufo?  Remember how she calls him 'my
>>lord' and lets him dominate her in all sorts of things?  Remember
>>his rude awakening in the last part of the book?  [Synopsis of
>>Oscar & Star's rel'nship is a role-reversal of "beautiful naive
>>young women who marry men considerably 'above' them"]
>
> Oh, come on!  Here we have the (supposedly) wisest person "in the
> twenty universes", and the best way she can come up with to handle
> the situation is to fall back on the old "manipulate the man using
> sex" routine?!!!  I'd hardly call that an enlightened or liberated
> view of women.  In fact, the book nauseated me.

  "Manipulate the man using sex" routine?

  's I recall, did she not also do some hypnosis and such, for
various reasons? Language, to calm him, probably confidence,....

  Let's see, what else could she have done, given that this is a
form of HIS (Oscar's) idea of the classic hero/dragonslayer, and
what he does and gets in reward.

  He was manipulated his entire life (The fencing classes, army,
etc.), and all for this one purpose.  He was only one of many
thousands of similar cases, just in case he failed (as the rest did,
in one way or another- they wouldn't have gone, they died
beforehand, etc.- not to say the QUEST was tried before- they only
got one shot at it, and thus needed the BEST....)

  All this was done by Star.  If sex happened to fit the pattern, it
fit and was a tool.  Perhaps she was bored.  Perhaps it would give
him more incentive.

  D'you recall the attitude towards sex that the galactic
civilization had?  Sex and living together was commonly asked at
causual parties, etc.  Marriage was an anachronism.

  Finally, do you recall the description of earth given by Star, as
defined by the galactics?  "Violent, primitive, socially retarded in
attitudes towards others.."  (not a quote, but the essence.)

Eric

ps. Sex is never just an old cliche' as a tool, weapon, etc...

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 05:30:05 GMT
From: johna@pwcs.stpaul.gov (John A. Erickson)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>> ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer)
>Or how about the fact that *even* *if* the book were conceptually
>incoherent as a paen to anarchism (and note that it is actually
>neither incoherent, nor a paen to anarchism) it would still be a
>ripping good story?
>
>Face it, that essay is a crock of gibberish.

Hear, hear. This discussion's signal-to-noise ration has been
incredibly out of whack.

As a matter of fact, most of the Heinlein discussions I've seen on
the net have ignored one KEY fact about RAH: he tells a yarn like
nobody else.  (OK, at least like very few people currently writing.)

It seems to me that one thing that sets him above many other writers
is the fact that he can inspire such heated debate, while, if one
looks at the most superficial levels, he can sustain a good yarn. (I
know I'm being redundant.  It's OK--I'm through)

I'm not ashamed to say that I enjoy _Starship Troopers_, without
even really looking at some of the politics involved in it; though,
if pressed, I'd have to admit there are a few good ideas in it.

It's 12:30---what kind of posting did you expect?

John A. Erickson
City of St. Paul
johna@pwcs.StPaul.GOV
...!ihnp4!quest!pwcs!johna

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 13:45:36 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans)
Subject: Why do we hate Heinlein?

I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate Heinlein".
I will never again read anything he has written.

I know I am not alone.  There are other Heinlein haters.  I
personally know one or two of them.  If you have ever angrily
discarded a copy of an RAH book, then come out of the closet!

I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably
couldn't do it justice.  Can someone more literate than myself
explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a
supremely offensive tale?

Mark Stevans
cci632!mark

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:00:10 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road"

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
> Carole Ashmore writes:
>>There are also several refuting examples for Sherry's more complex
>>complaint that the strong women, while there, are always there to
>>fulfill some man's fantasy of being 'man enough to conquer and
>>hold such a woman'.
>
>>Remember GLORY ROAD? . . .Remember his rude awakening in the last
>>part of the book?  [Synopsis of Oscar & Star's relationship is a
>>role-reversal of "beautiful naive young women who marry men
>>considerably 'above' them"]
>
> Oh, come on!  Here we have the (supposedly) wisest person "in the
> twenty universes", and the best way she can come up with to handle
> the situation is to fall back on the old "manipulate the man using
> sex" routine?!!!  I'd hardly call that an enlightened or liberated
> view of women.  In fact, the book nauseated me.

Well, actually, I didn't SAY it was an example of "an enlightened or
liberated view of women."  I said, or implied at least, that it was
a conscious exploration of male and female role reversal in a
traditional stereotyped situation.  Certainly my notion of
liberation is not role reversal but a change toward more reasonable
roles for both men and women.  I think a book like GLORY ROAD can be
seen as a step in that direction because it brings home to men the
discomfort of the subordinate role by showing a man in that role.

And you missed an admittedly rather subtle, but important point.
Star does not manipulate Oscar using sex; he's getting plenty of sex
before meeting her.  She manipulates him using romance, in the very
broadest sense of the word.  The romance of adventure,
fantasy-adventure comtumes for both of them, picnics and love in the
woods with servants to take care of all the mundane fixing and
cleanup, a quick tour through exotic lands with exotic people and
costumes.  Indeed, the whole web of romance she spins around him is
not so much sexual manipulation, but an almost exact analogy of the
traditional 'romantic' trappings that are shown in so many books as
useful to snare a woman into a subordinate role.  You know,
candlelight dinners, long beautiful dresses, formal dances, men who
'sweep you off your feet', and you never notice til after you're
married and taking care of the castle while he goes off to slay
dragons, that all the trappings cover a very subordinate role.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 May 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #216
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #216
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 216

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous - The Perfect Creature (8 msgs) &
                          Plagarism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 13:00:14 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature

gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes:
>Perfect is defined (in this context) by the local of evolution, and
>evolution trys to produce perfect creatures, i.e. any change for
>the better tends to be kept alive and breeding.

Evolution doesn't "try" to do anything, and it's not heading in any
direction.

> We know too little about the universe outside of our planet, who
> knows whats perfect out there? A perfect creature for this planet
> is a more feasible task, but then for modern North America or some
> other part of the globe ?

The notion of discussing perfection in relation to biological
organisms (or any other phenomenon) is basically ridiculous.
Perfection assumes the existence of some sort of Platonic ideal
against which all occurences of an object are measured. There ARE NO
Platonic ideals: all you can say is that one organism is relatively
better adapted to its current environment than another (and that in
itself is a very difficult thing to do).

Bill INgogly

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 19:22:52 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature

wfi@rti.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>The notion of discussing perfection in relation to biological
>organisms (or any other phenomenon) is basically ridiculous.
>Perfection assumes the existence of some sort of Platonic ideal
>against which all occurences of an object are measured. There ARE
>NO Platonic ideals: all you can say is that one organism is
>relatively better adapted to its current environment than another
>(and that in itself is a very difficult thing to do).

I don't like your use of the word `ridiculous' - it sounds too much
aimed at the speaker rather than the idea. Nevertheless, you are
right, and I feel I should even take this further. Evolution does
not produce `best adapted' organisms, and at times not even `better
adapted' ones - quite often two competing species branch off into
different ecological niches and thus give up their competition
(entering an empty niche is usually better than competing, even if
you have the upper hand). The ONLY thing that evolution ensures is
that an organism is viable (surviving). That's a tautology of
course; if it weren't it would be dead. Another, competing organism
may but need not infringe on this viability.

In fact, at times adaptation to a given environment is of doubtful
value.  Consider the late dinosaurs, who seemed to be superbly
adapted to their contemporary environment. They were so well adapted
that a change in that environment just plain wiped them out. Perhaps
the `evolutionary advantage' of the early mammals were just that
they were NOT particularly well adapted, and thus flexible enough to
`ride the changes'. In this sense, a *lack* of adaptation may offer
evolutionary advantages.

Let me note, for those who believe in the `wisdom of evolution',
that by the rules of the evolutionary game, the dinosaurs played it
quite correctly.  Evolution, by its very structure, tends to adapt a
race to those aspects of the environment that are stable for
(typically) some dozen or hundreds of lifetimes of the individual
organisms. The underlying paradigm is the projection of stability -
*if it's so for the next year, it probably will remain so for the
future* (I know this is a gross simplification). Evolution CANNOT
prepare a race for (relatively) abrupt changes that are more than
(say) a thousand generations off. From the point of view of
dinosaurdom, this planet has just pulled an unfair surprise trick on
them. (Well, I like it :-).

There's a lesson for us humans in there somewhere, but I'm going to
let it stand for now - feel free to invest some thought...

perry@inteloa.intel.com
...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
..!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:07 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Perfect critter

   Just a few comments on designing the perfect race, rather than a
long exposition.
   Background: They should come from a slightly ellipsoid planet
with severe axial tilt, approximately the same size as earth, but
with a density of perhaps 6.5 instead of earth's 5.5.  The
atmosphere should be thinner.

   Reason: The creatures should be adapted to as varied and as
hostile an environment as possible.  The ellipsoid planet will give
severe differences in atmospheric pressure (from a biological
standpoint).  The severe axial tilt will provide hellacious seasonal
temperature variations, and the daily variations will be accentuated
by less atmosphere to insulate the ground at night.  A higher
density planet will have more gravity, resulting in a tougher and
stronger creature, which one supposes will carry bigger weapons when
they reach that tech level.  The higher density of the planet will
also insure more of the heavy elements needed for a technological
civilization, while providing a higher than average radiation
background.  Of course, the creatures will be land dwellers.

   The net result of this is you have creatures adapted to a wide
variety of climactic extremes, strong and tough, more tolerant to
radiation and poor atmosphere, sitting in a nest of elements
neccessary for high-tech.  The physical form will come later, but
must fit these conditions.  Any comments?

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 87 09:09 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: More on perfect critter

   As to the form of the perfect critter whose environment I
outlined in a previous message.  Given the environment, I don't
think the singly redundant humanoid attributes would be enough (2
eyes, ears, etc.)  I would go for three eyes, each one having a
field of vision that slightly overlaps \ the others.  This will give
nearly a full hemisphere of vision.  Even if one eye is lost, the
creature will still retain depth perception capabilities.  For ears,
perhaps two would be enough.  The focusing and direction sensing
external ear (like cats) would be useful.  The brain might as well
go in the skull.  There is just too much cablework going into it to
justify the extra evolutionary expense of separating it from the
sense organs.  Just cushion and armor the hell out of it.
   While on the topic of a nervous system, does anyone see a problem
with an electronic nervous system?  Electrical transmission of nerve
impulses is *so* much faster than the pitiful chemical reflexes us
humans use.
   For manipulators, something for fine work, definitely.  Limbs for
sheer strength would also be useful, although I don't know if I
would go for the asymmetry of a Motie.  Perhaps strong limbs with an
extra joint, having manipulators on this sub-limb.  The total limb
count would probably be six or so.  Four-legged runners are faster
than 2, and with any degree of intelligence, the loss of one
load-bearing limb out of four could probably be compensated for
better than a loss of 1 out of 2.

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 14:35:33 GMT
From: gatech!mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature

perry@inteloa.intel.com writes:
>I don't like your use of the word `ridiculous' - it sounds too much
>aimed at the speaker rather than the idea. Nevertheless, you are
>right, and I feel I should even take this further. ...

I didn't mean to offend the speaker. You're right; it was a poor
choice of words. Thanks for some excellent comments expanding on
what I've said!

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 18:00:28 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: More on perfect critter

PORTERG@VCUVAX.BITNET writes:
>I would go for three eyes, each one having a field of vision that
>slightly overlaps the others.  ... [etc.]

I always find aliens that were designed using an engineering
approach unconvincing in SF stories. Evolution solves problems in a
way that has nothing to do with a human engineer's approach to a
problem. But too many SF authors approach the 'design' of an alien
creature as though evolution somehow worked with a set of
requirements to develop specs, then proceeded through various design
stages in a rational fashion. The result is a creature that leaves
someone with a background in biology scratching her head and
wondering if ANYONE in the SF field knows anything about fundamental
evolutionary theory. The creature feels phony in the same way a
poorly-drawn, cardboard human character feels phony.

Basic training for an SF author who wants to portray alien creatures
should include a firm grounding in evolutionary theory, as well as
current thought on the evolution of planetary systems. Linguistics
would help, too, since many attempts at portraying alien languages
are laughable (my favorite probably being Kurt Vonnegut/Kilgore
Trout's creatures who communicated by simultaneously farting and tap
dancing :-).

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 17:18:36 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Perfect critter

From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Background: They should come from a slightly ellipsoid planet with
>severe axial tilt, approximately the same size as earth, but with a
>density of perhaps 6.5 instead of earth's 5.5.  The atmosphere
>should be thinner.

Hmmm... Have you read Hal Clement's "Mission of Gravity"? The
creatures there come from an ellipsoid planet with gravity ranging
from 3G to some unbelievable amount. (The sequel, "Star Light",
deals with the same creatures, different planet).

And Larry Niven's "Known Space" series includes an ellipsoid planet,
"Jinx", so attenuated that parts of the planet stick beyond the
atmosphere. As does his planet, same millieu, "Plateau". Well,
Plateau is out of the best part of the atmosphere, at least.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,hplabs,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 17:55:24 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature



perry@inteloa.intel.com writes:
>[Lots of stuff about evolution and the dinosaurs, and how not being
>perfectly adapted may be an advantage]
>
>There's a lesson for us humans in there somewhere, but I'm going to
>let it stand for now - feel free to invest some thought...

Man, in fact, is very well suited to a rapidly changing environment.
Perhaps we have learned nature's lesson in the process of our
evolution?  We no longer adapt to our surroundings, rather we mold
our surroundings whenever possible (soon the whole world will look
like a McDonalds :-) Man is indeed a very flexible creature. We are
really only specialized in one area - our brains - and that is one
of the most powerfull tools for aiding us in rapid adapting, instead
of freezing our buts off waiting to grow fur, we make coats, when we
find food that is not normally edible we cook it. Now, this brain
thing does have its disadvantages, we may yet blow ourselves off the
planet as a direct result of its application, but you have to take
the bad with the good as they say!

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 87 02:56:13 pdt
From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
Subject: Movie Flame Plagarismic huh?

Y'know, I hate to break in on a perfectly nice witch-hunt, nor do I
pretend to respect or supposrt plagarism, but there are a few things
we might want to take into account before we go declaring that we
won't support anyone who takes any ideas from anyone.  To whit:

Cliche: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Bakshi may have ripped of Bode's work without crediting him, and
without paying any royalties to his estate, andf this is sure as
hell deplorable.  On the other hand, it says a lot about Bode's work
that Bakshi would rip it off, and the film will stand for years,
more a monument to Bode's creative genius than to Bakshi's.  It is a
shame that his name does not appear on it now, but his name will
appear on it if history chooses to preserve it.

The Terminator thing, though, gets a bit touchy.  Here's where we
have to remember that using other people's plot lines and writing
styles is time-honored tradition, without which we would have
virtually nothing to call great literature.

We would have to despise Virgil as a cheap imitator of Homer, and
Dante as a sycophantic copyist of both.

And we would have to dump Shakespeare -- most, if not all of his
plays were merely clever retellings of older plays.  It's not just a
case of being influenced by past authors -- it was just considered
normal to adapt ideas from previous works, to imitate, translate,
and retell them; Tolkien in _The Lord_of_the_Rings_ reworks myths
and fables into a wholly original story -- I haven't heard anyone
here saying that they won't buy Tolkien's books because he's a
plagarist.

Why not?  Because the people who wrote the works aren't around to
sue his estate?

I'm sorry if I sound shrill -- what I'm really getting at is that
you folks are taking what seems to me an excessively legalistic,
capitalistic stance on this matter.  Plots and genres were not
considered a form of personal property until nations started passing
copyright laws.  I, for one, find these laws scary sometimes.  If
Shakespeare was alive today, would he sue the authors of
_West_Side_Story_?  Did any of you skip _Star_Wars_ because it
lifted plot elements from Japanese cartoons?  Or _Apocalypse_Now_
because it was a (rather direct) re-telling of Conrad's
_Heart_of_Darkness_?  No credit was given in either case, to my
memory.

Scary story, on related subject:

A local (Santa Cruz, CA) health food restaurant named McDharma's was
recently sued by McDonald's on the grounds that their name was too
like McDonalds (i.e., began with McD).  Now, to win this sort of
suit, one has to prove that the other business is damaging the image
of your business, and impairing sales.  'Course, McDon's is a
multi-million dollar corporation, and McDharma's has one store, with
about eight tables, but McDonald's happens to own a few first-string
high-powered lawyers, and McDharma's has lost a name.  So: Why is it
that one company should have the right to a name, of all things?  It
wasn't like anyone MISTOOK McDharma's for McDonalds ... One served
no meat, and one nothing but, but the law is wise and we are weak.

Moral: If you got a Scottish last name, I recommend you change it
before you lose your shirt -- McDonald's owns them all, and she's
collecting rent.

ARPA: rthr@ucscb.ucsc.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #217
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #217
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 217

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Ellison (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 06:40:40 GMT
From: ranjit@atlantis.berkeley.edu (Ranjit Bhatnagar)
Subject: Ellison on Tape

I recently purchased the Waldentapes edition of Harlan Ellison
reading his "A Boy and His Dog" and "'Repent, Harlequin,' Said the
Ticktockman."  I strongly recommend this and any other tapes of
Ellison reading his own work to those of you who enjoy Ellison's
writing.  He is an excellent reader, he knows the work well (of
course!), and his voice is perfect for the overall tone of the
stories.

I dug this out of a bargain bin at a local Waldenbooks.  I hope
they're not discontinuing it.

Ranjit

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 17:50:40 GMT
From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Ellison on Tape

   There's also a tape of Ellison reading "I'm Looking for Kadak"
which I highly recommend.  He reads it with a great deal of
expression which makes the dry humor of the story even funnier.  I
don't know if it's still available or not, though.  I bought my copy
in 1980 at Noreascon Two, and suspect it was probably available only
through specialty stores, etc.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 22:49:36 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Ellison on Tape

I got my copy of "I'm Looking for Kadak" from the Harlan Ellison
Record Collection, a sort of Harlan appreciation society which sells
tapes and records of Harlan reading his work.  I don't think they
are accepting any new members, and I haven't seen or heard anything
from them for a couple of years. (Some member of Harlan's
household/staff usually runs it, and I think they've been busy.)

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 08:02:24 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR

From:   ucla-cs!sgreen  (Shoshanna Green)
> It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to
> sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they
> ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits
> episode.
>
> I have, in one of my collections, both the original story and the
> script for Outer Limits. I've wanted to see the movie for some
> time in order to compare them, but I will not do it in such a way
> as to support the people who stole another person's work (i.e. I
> wouldn't see it in a theater and probably wouldn't rent it).

While I have great respect for Harlan for various reasons, I think
he's a little too trigger-happy when it comes to suing for
plagiarism. There are certain similarities between his two TOL
teleplays and THE TERMINATOR, but the details are different enough
that I don't see the latter as a rip-off.  I'm sure that
writer/director James Cameron didn't "steal" Ellison's work. At
worst, it was likely a case of unconscious plagiarism. At any rate,
as others have said, they settled out of court to Ellison's
satisfaction.

From:   sci!daver       (Dave Rickel)

> Was this story "Demon With a Glass Hand"? Good story, but nothing
> at all like The Terminator (sure, a couple of superficial
> resemblances. There is an android involved. There is time travel
> involved. The fate of the human race is involved. That seems to be
> it. Oh yes. There was also some combat.  Is Ellison claiming that
> any story that involves androids, time travel, the human race, and
> combat is a ripoff of "Demon With a Glass Hand"?  Do people
> believe him?).

While Ellison claimed certain elements of "Demon with a Glass Hand"
were present in THE TERMINATOR, the primary elements were from his
other TOL script, "Soldier", in which a "bred" soldier from the
future is accidentally transported into the past (present).

If you can track down a copy of Ellison's collection FROM THE LAND
OF FEAR, you'll find therein his "Soldier" teleplay, as well as his
original story from which it's adapted.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 14:24:21 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR

If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas are
being plagiarized, they have every right to sue.  Harlan has pointed
out that writers have for too long been abused by networks and
studios. If a writer isn't smart enough to look out for his own
interests, they deserve what they get. And if Harlan is the only
writer smart enough to hire a lawyer and brave enough to go to
court, he deserves whatever he can get.

If a studio or network feels there was no plagiarism, they have
every opportunity to prove it in court. Obviously since the case was
settled out of court to Harlan's satisfaction, the studio must have
considered themselves guilty!

Royal White Jr.
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 19:27:01 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: Ellison and Terminator

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>> It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to
>> sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, charging that they
>> ripped off a story of his which was adapted for an Outer Limits
>> episode.
>
>Was this story "Demon With a Glass Hand"?

If I remember the note in Locus, Ellison's complaint was that
somehow two of his Outer Limits scripts - Demon With a Glass Hand
and Warrior - were merged and processed into The Terminator.  I've
seen both OL shows several times, and I have to agree with those who
consider Ellison without much of a case.  "Warrior" is closer to
"Terminator", about a infantryman from the future who spontaneously
time-travels back to our time, but it's hardly "Terminator".  I
suspect that Ellison must have a lawyer who's as intimidating and
fast-talking as he is.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:55 EDT
From: "Ronald A. Jarrell" <JARRELLRA%vtcs1.cs.vt.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: RE: Terminator
To: sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU

Shoshanna - Go ahead and rent it.  Harlan Ellison won his case, and
all tape copies of Terminator have a piece of credits computer
overlayed onto the originals that say something along the lines of
"special thanks to harlan ellison" or some such, acknowledging his
idea.

Ron Jarrell
Va Tech CS
jarrellra@vtcs1.cs.vt.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 17:31:42 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator

>Second, as nearly as I can tell, Ellison's Outer Limits episode
>bears no significant resemblance to The Terminator, other than the
>fact that both involve cyborgs, time travel, and the Frankenstein
>syndrome.  ... I'd say Ellison simply sicced his "killer lawyer" on
>a target that happened to have a lot of money and lined his
>pockets, pure and simple.  Certainly, Ellison's fiction has
>borrowed far more strongly from other and earlier SF authors than
>The Terminator borrowed from Ellison.

Harlan Ellison is very sensitive to having his ideas stolen by
people in the movie industry. From what I know of the practices in
this area, he has a certain amount of justification for his tendancy
to sue.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 87 12:49 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Ellison and Lawsuits

For a *FASCINATING* look at Harlan Ellison, lawsuits, Jim Shooter
and the degradation that human beings are capable of, I must highly
recommend the latest issue of 'The Comics Journal', #115 I believe.
One of you mentioned this earlier, here are some details.  About 7
years ago, in a Comics Journal interview, Harlan Ellison, in his
inimitable style, managed to simultaneously compliment writer
Michael Fleisher and also imply that he might be missing a few
marbles.  It was typical Ellison sarcasm, but Michael Fleisher was
not amused.  He decided to sue Ellison and Gary Groth
(editor/publisher of the Journal) for 2 million dollars.  Ellison
and Groth won, but the account of the trial is nonetheless a
fascinating one.  Jim Shooter, former editor-in-chief of Marvel was
brought in as an expert witness, as was Dean Mullaney, editor of
Eclipse comics.  A more petty pair of rogues you'll never hear.
Soley on the basis of the fact that The Journal often prints bad
reviews of their companies' comics, these 2 gentlemen demonstrate
the lowest, most debased testimony that is at all possible.  Thank
God for the first ammendment.  Ellison and Groth won, but the legal
bills were so high that Ellison had to have a 'roast' in his own
honor (featuring Ray Bradbury, Stan Lee and Robin Williams among
others), and Groth had to publish a whole separate comic book
featuring donated submissions from various sources.

By the way, for any other comics enthusiasts, that was not a
misprint, that's Jim Shooter, FORMER Editor-In-Chief :-)

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 16:54:26 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR

> rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White)
>> boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>>I think he's a little too trigger-happy when it comes to suing for
>>plagiarism.
>
> If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas are
> being plagerized, they have every right to sue.

I agree with both Jerry and Royal here.  The two positions are
compatible.  Harlan has every right to sue... and he is overeager to
excersize this right.

> Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's
> satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty!

Oh yeah, right, sure, its "obvious" they considered themselves
guilty.  Couldn't be that they could do arithmetic and see that it
would be cheaper to settle than to litigate, oh no, they're guilty
alright.  Who ever heard of an executive in the entertainment
industry capable of doing arithmetic anyhow?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 02:20:54 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!bjorn@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: More Ellison vs. the world [Paranoia chips supreme]

I have never seen an "Outer Limits" episode in my life.  I have one
short story collection by Harlan Ellison.  I've read this collection
but nothing else by Ellison as far as I know.  I consider it
probable that he is the author of some short stories in one of the
best of "this and that" volumes that I have in another continent.  I
have read somewhere between one and two thousand SF books in my life
(my personal SF library stands at about 600 books right now),
spanning the spectrum: old and new, hard and soft.  I can
categorically state that there was not one idea or concept exploited
in "The Terminator" that was original as far as I'm concerned.  Be
it Cyborgs, the particular causality of time travel, the specific
detection equipment (dogs, etc), following someone into the past and
or all of these taken together (ie. even the plot).
 In short "The Terminator" was from my view a "cliche" SF movie
distinguished from SF movies of lesser quality only by excellence in
execution.

I think that Terminator was/is an excellent SF film.  As far as
plagiarism in Terminator is concerned I would like to look at the
evidence, who knows it may be that Terminator is more or less a
direct translation of something Ellison wrote in the past.  All the
same I'd be mighty surprised if Ellison's Doberman lawyer could come
up with anything related to the film that was original to Ellison
and cannot not be found in my own library (most of which is a
continent away as I alluded to previously).

Someone mentioned not adding to the bulging coffers of those that
practice plagiarism.  Agreed!!  As far as I can see Ellison is
always whining about this and that.  Claiming as his old ideas.
Constantly in litigation, etc..  I think I'll stay away from Ellison
thank you.

More than willing to discuss and research the issue as well as being
proven wrong about Ellison (try me),

Bjorn R. Bjornsson
{ubc-vision,ihnp4,mnetor}!alberta!bjorn

PS.
Now for sure somebody is going to say: "how can you read 1000+ SF
books and only one of them is by Ellison?"  So I say: Go ahead,
ask!!!!

Who knows I might answer: "Well, it wasn't all in English" But then
again I might not B-) B-).

PPS. I envy anyone that's just starting to read SF.  The year I
started reading SF in English I polished off about 500 books.  After
that things went much slower due to the simple fact that it's so
much harder to get a hold of the "good stuff" after you've plowed
through the best of the field for a while.  'Cause after that
travelogues of strange worlds that are without a STORY (plot,
characterization, theme, etc.) just don't cut it (Integral Trees
anyone?).  Hey there's light at the end of the tunnel, it's always
possible to re- and re-read the best!!!!

I also envy anyone that has not seen "Oh, Lucky Man" and is about to
see it in a theater (not on the tube, see it in a theater!!!! (3
hours well spent B-)).

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 08:58:57 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR

From:   netxcom!rwhite  (Royal White, Jr.)
> If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas are
> being plagiarized, they have every right to sue....And if Harlan is
> the only writer smart enough to hire a lawyer and brave enough to
> go to court, he deserves whatever he can get.

This is true, *but*, I still think that Ellison is too
trigger-happy.  Now with the "Brillo" case, he was definitely in the
right. He had, at a studio's (Paramount, I think, but I'm not
positive) request, drawn up a prospectus for a regular series based
on his and Bova's story. The studio ended up turning it down, but
about a year later, what should show up on the tube but FUTURE COP,
using the same basic premise as "Brillo". This was a cut and dried
case of plagiarism.  I don't think that THE TERMINATOR is close
enough to Ellison's OUTER LIMITS teleplays to make for a solid case
against the film.

> If a studio or network feels there was no plagiarism, they have
> every opportunity to prove it in court.

Say what? As the defendents, they don't have to prove *anything*.
It's up to the plaintiffs to prove the studio *did* plagiarize.
Remember "innocent until proven guilty"?

> Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's
> satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty!

Well, as I said, it could well have been a case of unconscious
plagiarism. The idea may have been in the back of Cameron's head,
but he wasn't aware (or didn't remember) that the idea came from an
external source. This is not a particularly rare occurence.
*Perhaps* they *did* settle because Cameron realized that Ellison's
teleplays *were* where the ideas came from. But still, the fact that
they settled out of court isn't *necessarily* an admission of guilt.
For one, Cameron could very well have never seen those OUTER LIMITS
episodes and came up with the TERMINATOR concept independently, but
if Ellison's lawyer can put up a convincing case, and Cameron's
lawyer can't "prove" that the idea was derived independently, then
Cameron loses, regardless of the truth of the matter. For two, they
might well have decided it was cheaper to settle out of court than
to fight the case for months or possibly years (I doubt that Ellison
would ever voluntarily throw in the towel). Regardless of the ideal,
Justice favors the rich and persistent.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 0853-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #218
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 0853-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #218
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 218

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 87  22:16 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Boskone alternatives

Why does everyone act like Boskone is the only con in the world?
There's plenty of others around - even on the same weekend.  Hell, I
wanted to go to Boskone next year myself, but seeing as I've never
been to one, and have been known to wear costumes and am therefore
probably not encouraged to even try :), well, there's lots of other
cons that are able to be a bit more welcoming.

For all those costumers being officially discouraged, there is
CostumeCon 6 being held on President's Day weekend '88 in
California.

Media fen who will miss the film & video stuff....well, there's
CampbellCon, a Star Trek/media con, same weekend, at the Columbia
Inn in Columbia, Maryland.

If anyone wants the addresses for either of these, e-mail me
directly and I'll dig them up.

And my two bits on the new Boskone rules:

non-transferrable memberships: bad idea.  come on, NESFA, what do
you think is going to happen?  people buying up memberships and
selling them to uninvited people?  I think your invitees will want
to come themselves.

under-18-not-allowed (generally): *real* bad idea.  I started going
to cons when I was 13, and like the majority of underage fen never
caused any more problems than the average adult attendee.  I'm 18
now, but I think that the policy stinks.  I never would have been
able to convince my parents to accompany me to a convention - they
think the *adults* I meet there are not the type of people a
teenager should be associating with.  Seems they read SF or
something strange like that.  Bad influence, all right.

costumes officially discouraged: unfriendly of NESFA.  there is no
rule against wearing a costume anywhere you like (as far as I know -
and I can't wait for someone to tell me that Boston has a law
against it or something :) ) This probably won't be too effective.
And what about the people who have done *costume* panels for Boskone
in the past?  Are they still invited, or are they officially
discouraged too?

The rest of the rules seem fairly sensible (although I'd love to see
them officially discouraging parties at whatever the decreed closing
time is....), and NESFA really is in a bit of bind with the hotel
situation, so why don't we give them a break?  They're doing their
best - although as far as limiting memberships goes, I think
first-come, first-served would be a fairer (not to mention simpler)
policy.  But it's NESFA's con, and the rest of us just don't have
much say in the matter.  Me, I think I'll head for CampbellCon.

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 87  04:19 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: UK SF-cons

Richard W. Rodway writes:
>Does anyboy know of any Sf-cons that take place in the U.K.  I
>would love to "try one out" but I have never heard of any in this
>country (or any non-university fan clubs)).  Air fares to the U.S.

try looking in the gaming Magazine White Dwarf for fan clubs.

conventions:
Rubicon 2/Silicon   May29-Jun1  Chequers Hotel, Newbury UK
                    m'ship 5 pounds (no symbol on this keyboard!)
                    relaxacon
                    info: Krystyna Oborn, Bishop's Cottage,
                    Park House Lane, Reading, Berks., UK

Albacon '87         Jun19-22  Central Hotel, Glasgow Scotland
                    GoHs: Brian Stableford, Josephine Saxton
                    m'ship 8 pounds/4 pounds supporting
                    info: Albacon '87, c/o Mark Meenan,
                    "Burnawn", Stirling Rd, Dumbarton G82 2PJ,
                    Scotland, UK

Unicon 8/Connote8   Jul 3-5  New Hall, Cambridge, UK
                    GoH Geraldine Harris
                    m'ship 8 pounds/4 pounds supporting
                    info: Connote8, Trinity College, Cambridge,
                    CB2 1TQ, UK
                    no relation to USA Unicon Jul 17-19

Conspiracy          Aug 27-Sep 2 Brighton Conf. Ctr & Metropole Hotel
    (Worldcon '87)  Brighton UK
                    GoHs: Doris Lessing, Alfred Bester, more
                       (LOTS more!)
                    45th World SF Convention
                    info: Conspiracy '87, Box 43, Cambridge,
                    England CB1 3JJ

if you can get to any one of these, just asking around and picking
up flyers should tell you about a whole lot more of them.

anyone else out there interested in the Worldcon this year?  it's
probably too late to e-mail me (I'm only at college for one more
week), but write to me - address below.  I'm definitely going.

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET
169 Pershing Ave
Ridgewood NJ 07450 USA
201-445-0385

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 87 9:05:39 EDT
From: the Shadow <jeffh@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Conventional Questions

Dear Readers,

While we are on the subject of SF conventions, I thought it might be
appropriate at this time to interject a question or two for the
consideration of those more experienced in matters of "con-going"
than I.

I recently attended my first-ever Balticon.  I was entirely
unprepared for this experience, since my previous cons had all been
LepreCons (held annually in Phoenix, AZ).  Balticon draws roughly
FIVE TIMES the number of people that I had previously seen at a con.
In addition, I attended with one of my two SF-reading friends in the
area, rather than with a crowd of twenty or so members of a certain
fan club.  (In case you hadn't guessed, I am somewhat new to the
East Coast and to East Coast conventions.)  Needless to say, I spent
my time there feeling more than a little bit lost.

My questions, then, are the following:

1)  Assuming one is forced to walk into a convention "Cold Turkey"
    (that is, without a large pre-existing social group), how should
    one go about finding people of similar interests/dispositions?

2)  Are there any good fan clubs in the Baltimore area that do more
    than just SF-oriented things?  (The club I refer to in Phoenix
    went on a number of hikes, attended concerts, and in general
    explored the area's attractions.  I even went sky-diving for
    the first-thru-sixth times with a few of them.)

3)  Which other cons (large or small) in this area (DC to NYC)
    are worth attending?  What the positive/negative aspects of each?
    Are any readers of SF-Lovers planning to attend any of these
    conventions?  If so, would there be a way for us to form a
    small private party, just to get acquainted?

You should probably respond to questions 2 & 3 privately.  If anyone
wishes and there is any response, I will summarize and post at some
later date.  Question #1 might be of general interest to readers of
SF-Lovers.

Thank you for your time,

Jeff Hanes
USnail: 1447 Harford Square
        Edgewood, MD  21040
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh
ARPA:   <jeffh@brl.arpa>
MILNET: <jeffh@vmb.brl.mil>

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 17:17:49 GMT
From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Request for convention recommendations

   After reading NESFA's letter concerning Boskone 25, I am of two
minds as to whether I will be going to Boskone.  Given that the
dealer's room is likely to shrink to 60 tables, coupled with NESFA's
attitude toward people who sell anything but books, I suspect my
chances of getting even 1 table are about those of a snowball in
Hell.  This is not an ad, so I won't go into what I would be selling
if I do get a table.  If anybody is dieing of curiosity, e-mail me.

   I've already said my piece on NESFA's policies, and there's no
point in going into it again.  They certainly have every right to
decide who and what they want at their convention.  As several
people have pointed out, there are other conventions out there.  I
am hoping people on the net will send me suggestions of other
conventions that they've been to that fit the general description of
what I'm looking for.

   I'm interested in hearing about US conventions which tend to
attract something on the order of 1500 or more people.  If the con
is more than about 300 miles from Boston I will end up having to fly
there, which is hard to justify for anything much smaller than that.
Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated, and I will
summarize any responses which seem to be of general interest for the
net.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 17:10:58 GMT
From: beal@puff.wisc.edu (Roberta Beal)
Subject: Re: Conventional Questions

jeffh@BRL.ARPA writes:
>1)  Assuming one is forced to walk into a convention "Cold Turkey"
>    (that is, without a large pre-existing social group), how should
>    one go about finding people of similar interests/dispositions?

Oh, that's easy!  For general people-meeting go to the consuite and
just talk to people.  You meet some very interesting people in the
consuite (example: I once talked to Jack Chalker for 30 minutes
before I looked down at his name badge to see who he was).  As for
special interests ...  you can almost always find a programming
event tailored to your interests (filk singing, gaming, costuming,
sercon, ...), I would assume the other people at the panel/event
also share your interest.

The best thing about going to a convention w/o your usual group of
friends is that you *do* meet new people, people you probabaly
wouldn't have met otherwise.  Then, you have a new convention friend
you can talk to at the next con you go to.  You'd be amazed how many
people you'll know after a couple of years.

Robin Beal
University of Wisconsin - Madison

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 04:11:26 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Request for convention recommendations

>I'm interested in hearing about US conventions which tend to
>attract something on the order of 1500 or more people.  If the con
>is more than about 300 miles from Boston I will end up having to
>fly there, which is hard to justify for anything much smaller than
>that.  Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated, and I will
>summarize any responses which seem to be of general interest for
>the net.

There are two west coast cons I never miss.  Octocon in Santa Rosa
(in October when they have it, usually every two or three years) and
Baycon in San Jose (Memorial Day Weekend, this year May 22-25).

Octocon is basically a sercon, but they don't actively restrict
things, it just works out that way -- this is a pro and reader haven
as well as having lots of interest to others.  Last year it ran
about 800-1200 people, I think (I don't have exact figures).

Baycon is a regional for the San Francisco Bay Area, and has
something of interest for everyone.  I think they're expecting about
1,500-2,000 this year.

There is, of course, Westercon, in Oakland this year. I'm going, but
I tend to prefer smaller, more personal con's than the large
regionals, so I don't get to it religiously.  From the people I've
talked to on the concom this year, it looks pretty reasonable.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 00:12:39 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: con program attendance

spem@hscfvax.UUCP (G. T. Samson) writes:
>Is it common that people who go to cons attend almost no
>programming?  (This was true for me for the first 3 Boskones I went
>to... but I got curious this year.)  Do people think it's "good"
>not to attend programming?

Before this past weekend, I hadn't attended any programming (except
the Elfquest meetings, but I was Expected at those... :^) for well
over a year.  At Ad Astra, very few of the panelists or topics have
interested me, so I've stopped looking -I've promised several people
I'll try harder this year- and have managed to be very busy just
sitting in the lobby greeting people as they go by...  Toronto has
gotten crowded!  I also attended a few Chicago cons, and found that
I was too busy meeting people I'd been writing to / receiving
submissions from (etc.) for years to actually LOOK AT the program
book...  Oh, the embarrasment...  Actually, I do remember that
Windycon had some interesting world-building and alien-building
things going on...

I like programming, and prefer cons that have good, strong, serious
programming that isn't overshadowed by backrubbing seminars.  At
Contraption, this past weekend, I attended only a small amount of
programming (three or four panels and a few of the movies), mostly
because I slept through the stuff that looked good in the listings -
but I was reminded of how much I used to enjoy real programming.

I guess getting known / getting to know others has its
disadvantages.  At Contraption, I spent my time with people I met AT
THE CON (gasp!)  (Ask Ken and Covert about teenaged rowdies... oh
no!), and I think the lack of "crowds I know" contributed to the
amount of time I had for the con itself.

Awhile back, a very brief discussion of the World Fantasy Con
appeared on the net; I liked the Con because it had good
programming, and I agree that it lacks/avoids the more fannish
aspects found in most cons.  If a "sercon" is done that well, I've
no complaints (Torque 3 was another great one), but I guess I do
prefer the larger cons with a broader range in programming, just
because I also, then, get to see a lot of friends that DON'T attend
the serious programming.

I also like the all-night (or near all-night) movies that definitely
WON'T be found at the serious, literary cons.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 00:23:19 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: con program attendance

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>Go outside the normal sf groups for speakers.  Try local colleges,
>business and industry, special interest groups, government (not
>just NASA), non-sf writers, the school systems...

Which reminds me...  "Speakers" are a great idea.  I've seen concoms
go out to find interesting speakers from outside fandom, especially
for the science talks, but they seldom find people that can PERFORM.
One of the best con guests I've ever seen was Andrew Offut at
Incognicon (Ottawa); he's a dynamic speaker no matter what the
topic.  If you're looking into the local university or college for
speakers, recruit somebody to do some snooping for you, and try to
get the prof that all the students love...

I guess the topic has been beaten to death by filkers everywhere...
All sorts of lovely ideas come up about the difference between
performers and "fans who sing".  I don't want the amatuers cut out
completely, because a lot of them are very talented.  But if the
concom is looking for more work (ha!), they should put some energy
into encouraging style, to add spice to the brainpower.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 04:33:45 GMT
From: dayton!viper!ddb@RUTGERS.EDU (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Conventional Questions

jeffh@BRL.ARPA writes:
>1)  Assuming one is forced to walk into a convention "Cold Turkey"
>    (that is, without a large pre-existing social group), how should
>    one go about finding people of similar interests/dispositions?

Attend programming aimed at people of that disposition.  Visit
special rooms set aside for that activity or group.  Go do special
parties announced as intended for that audience.  Get to know people
who ARE part of the local group and ask them to point you at people
who share your interest (even during a con, this can be done;
volunteering to work usually gets you spending time with a lot of
the more active locals, since they will all be working the con....).

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #219
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #219
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 219

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:37:05 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
>in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
>will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate
>Heinlein".  I will never again read anything he has written.
>
>I know I am not alone.  There are other Heinlein haters.  I
>personally know one or two of them.  If you have ever angrily
>discarded a copy of an RAH book, then come out of the closet!
>
>I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably
>couldn't do it justice.  Can someone more literate than myself
>explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a
>supremely offensive tale?

How, how, how, HOW can you form such a strong opinion about an
author from reading only ONE of his books?
_Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ is probably the least characteristic of
all of Heinlein's works.  It doesn't follow the usual patterns and
ideas of his books at all.  Before you decide to trash RAH
completely I suggest you read some of his better works:

Try
  Methuselah's Children
  Time Enough for Love
  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
  Starship Troppers
  If This Goes On

and maybe some of his juvenile works:

  Starman Jones
  The Rolling Stones (alias Space Family Stone)
  Between Planets
  etc. etc. etc.

As the saying goes, "Try it, you'll like it."

Heinlein didn't get to be the dean of science fiction for nothing.
He's good.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 09:54:52 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632 (Mark Stevans) writes:
>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
>in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
>will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate
>Heinlein".  I will never again read anything he has written.

Hmmm.  I'm in a slightly different boat.

I read SiaSL when I was fifteen or so, during the most idyllic of
summer vacations in an isolated little bay down in Florida.  That
was the only time in my life I ever played a radio--there was this
one song they kept playing in the background, whose only lyrics were
a whispered "do it".  (If anyone could identify that song for me,
I'd be very grateful.)  I also sent away for some free pamphlets
from Brother Ted Armstrong, or maybe it was Father Herbert
Armstrong, or whomever.  That was the time I finally understood what
was going on behind Hewitt & Stromberg _Real and Abstract Analysis_,
a book that I'd been beating my head over for years at the time.  So
let's just say it was an idyllic summer.

I read SiaSL.  I enjoyed it very much.  And I also realized that I'd
never read another Heinlein novel again--although I've read and
enjoyed numerous of his short stories before and since.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 01:19:50 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

smann@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Mann) writes:
>>If so, how did you manage to miss [mention of several of RAH
>>female characters]?  None of these are pretty faces and sex
>>objects.
>
>I've been reading Heinlein for many years and consider his earlier
>works masterpieces.  I consider his more recent stuff trash.

Note that most of the female characters I mentioned where from his
earlier works.  Do you mean that it is his later females who are sex
objects, or all of his females?

Tim Smith
sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 15:09:42 GMT
From: rael@ihlpa.att.com (r.pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
> I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
> in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
> will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate
> Heinlein".  I will never again read anything he has written.

Hmmm.  Too bad about that really.  Stranger In A Strange Land was
probably the book I liked *best* by Heinlein.  You must've hated
similar things or concepts before you encountered the book, right?

You might want to try reading the book 2150 AD by Thea Alexander.
Though it begins to drag on near the end, the concepts it tries to
present are at the very least, thought provoking in a similar way.

Bob Pietkivitch
...ihnp4!ihlpa!rael

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 18:26:56 GMT
From: wrd@tekigm2.tek.com (Bill Dippert)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

I must state that I first encountered science fiction by reading
Heinlein.  Whether it was this bias or what, I do not know, but I
have always judged all other science fiction authors by how they
matched up to Heinlein.  I have never found any that were better
than Heinlein.  I have read Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Pohl
Anderson, and many many others.  Clark, Asimov and Anderson I rank
with Heinlein, the rest are lesser authors.  As far as I know, I own
and have read every Heinlein ever written.  Obviously some are
better than others.  You would expect absolute perfection every
time?  Furthermore, just what was it about SIASL that you did not
like?  Heinlein may be justly accused as being sexist, so was E.E.
Smith, but on the other hand how can "Friday" be considered sexist?
Maybe it is, being a male I might not recognize what the feminists
or NOWers or whomever are objecting to.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 03:06:23 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!javoskamp@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

I'm posting this for a friend.

johna@pwcs.StPaul.GOV (John A. Erickson) writes:
>As a matter of fact, most of the Heinlein discussions I've seen on
>the net have ignored one KEY fact about RAH: he tells a yarn like
>nobody else.  (OK, at least like very few people currently
>writing.)
>
>It seems to me that one thing that sets him above many other
>writers is the fact that he can inspire such heated debate, while,
>if one looks at the most superficial levels, he can sustain a good
>yarn. (I know I'm being redundant.  It's OK--I'm through)

The problem with Heinlein is that we can look back upon his older
works and compare them to his newer "garbage".  The depressing thing
is that his garbage is better than 90% of the stuff on the market
(Zelazny excepted :-]).  The man has had 4+ strokes after all.

The best thing he ever wrote is the "Moon is a Harsh Mistress". (or
Starship Troopers :-] )

UUCP  : {allegra,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp
CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 14:00:50 GMT
From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@RUTGERS.EDU (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

wrd@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Bill Dippert) writes:
>I must state that I first encountered science fiction by reading
>Heinlein....  Clark, Asimov and Anderson I rank with Heinlein, the
>rest are lesser authors.  As far as I know, I own and have read
>every Heinlein ever written.

   My wife was introduced to science fiction years ago by somebody
who gave her _Stranger in a Strange Land_.  To this day, I haven't
been able to undo the damage-- she still has a scornful tone to her
voice as she states "I don't like science fiction; it's not good."
And this in spite of the fact that she has thoroughly enjoyed books
I've pulled off my SF shelf (things like the Dorsai trilogy, Dune,
etc).  I feel better, though, when she can't get through _Lord Jim_,
another of my favorites. :-)

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 01:57:01 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
>in a Strange Land".  I hated it.
>
>Can someone more literate than myself explain, in one thousand
>words or less, why SIASL is such a supremely offensive tale?

Probably not, unless you give us some idea of >why< it so offended
you.  Since you had such a strong reaction, we must presume that it
attacked or ridiculed things you hold dear, or that you felt that it
cheated you - failed to carry through on its premises - in some
obscure way.  If this is too much introspection for you, tell us
what you >do< like, and we'll try to make some inferences from that
data.

I can't imagine anybody hating Stanger in a Strange Land.

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  9 May 1987 07:19:10-PDT
From: fusci%showit.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Ray Fusci)
Subject: Heinlein's Space Scout stories

ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) writes:
>   There are *2* such stories. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon"
>was serialized in the April and May, 1950 issues of Boy's Life, and
>"Tenderfoot in Space" was in the May-July, 1958 issues. Neither has
>ever been reprinted; they are the only published works of RAH I've
>never read, *sigh*.

Well, you can sigh a little less.  "Nothing Ever Happens on the
Moon" was reprinted in _EXPANDED_UNIVERSE_, ACE, 1982, ISBN
0-441-21883-0.

Ray Fusci
ARPA:   fusci@scotch.dec.com
UUCP:   ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 06:51:18 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably
>couldn't do it justice.  Can someone more literate than myself
>explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a
>supremely offensive tale?

It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend the
sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our cultural
"givens" are _not_ laws of nature.

Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case (cases?)
for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms.  Cannibalism,
marriage, sex, religion...

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 87 15:25:06 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore):
>Have you read THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST?  Do you remember that the
>whole first part of the book is basically an exercise in pointing
>out that in order to survive the passengers in a 'lifeboat' had
>better have a captain who is obeyed unquestioningly?  Do you
>remember who turns out to be the only capable captain?  Not the
>fantasy hero type, not the brilliant computer programmer, not the
>genious scientist, but Hilda Burroughs, all round reniassance woman
>with a gut instinct for organization and command.  Note that she is
>shown, not only as the best captain, but also as the only one
>capable of getting the rest of the 'crew' (even her husband) to
>recognize her superiority for command.

Strong agreement.  In fact, I think Hilda Burroughs is the best
portrayal of a strong, ``independent woman'' yet.

It must be realized that our prejudices STILL get in the way of
portraying strong women.  If you set out to write about a strong
woman and avoid the feminine prejudices, you get a man with a
woman's name -- which is even worse than the usual.  Someday our
society will unbend enough for us to see what a strong woman REALLY
looks like -- right now it duplicates the stories; a strong woman is
(socially) a man.  :-(

[Captain!  Sensors detect flames coming in from all directions!]

I should point out that in NUMBER OF THE BEAST, there are a few
points where Hilda leans on a man (generally, Zeb) for emotional
support, and I fully expect to have that thrown in my face as a
counterexample to her ``strength''.  Ha!  If more MEN looked for
emotional support, they'd have fewer stress-related disorders.
(Talking from experience here.)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 17:55:38 GMT
From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Space Scout stories

ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry) writes:
>   There are *2* such stories. "Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon"
>was serialized in the April and May, 1950 issues of Boy's Life,
>and "Tenderfoot in Space" was in the May-July, 1958 issues.
>Neither has ever been reprinted; they are the only published works
>of RAH I've never read, *sigh*.

   I saw these once in the collection of a friend who saves
everything, and while I didn't have time to more than glance at
them, I was under the impression that the material in "Tenderfoot in
Space" got incorporated into "Farmer in the Sky" later.  Does anyone
who's actually read them know if this is correct?

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 00:14:38 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Zigetty <PEU1347%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #210

   This is my first reply to SF-LOVERS so I will make no apologies..
First subject is Heinlein.  Yes I accept the important role he has
had in the evolution of SF as aa acceptable genre (end of praise).
However, let me add my 5 cents worth to the debate.  Heinlein was
years before his time in that he pre-empted the laissez-faire/new
right libertarianism which is sweeping the west.  How anyone can
take a blatantly milataristic and xenophobic piece of raw hate like
Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and typical work) is
beyond my comprehension.  Despite the fact that the U.S.  was
crippled both economically and politically by its involvement in
S.E.  Asia,people still maintain that Heinlein is a credible author.
What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER WAR ?  Or seen
Platoon....

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 22:14:24 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>Mark Stevans writes:
>>Why is SIASL [Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land"] is such a
>>supremely offensive tale?
>
>Leonard Erickson responds:
>>It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend
>>the sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our
>>cultural "givens" are _not_ laws of nature.
>
>>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case
>>(cases?)  for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms.
>>Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion...

and prostitution (remember Tamara?).

>But not homophobia?  Oh, sorry, this must be a law of nature.

He took that on in Time Enough For Love.  While RAH is quite
apparently unabashedly heterosexual, I think he grew in his openness
concepts between Stranger and Time Enough.  His later works, notably
those involving Secundus and Tertius acknowledge that, for instance,
being in bed with Galahad is a "good thing" for his male characters.
Galahad and Ishtar decide to bunk together (at the beginning of Time
Enough) before they know each other's gender.

While I don't doubt his sexual focus is heterosexual, his later
works show *at least* tolerance of, if not support for,
homosexuality, but mostly as anysexuailty ("I love *that* person,
I'll share bedtime with him/her.").

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
408-746-6047
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com
amdahl!krs

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #220
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #220
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 220

Today's Topics:

            Films - Influences & Ice Pirates (2 msgs) &
                    Eraserhead & 2001 (4 msgs) & A Request &
                    Good/Bad Movies (2 msgs) & Supergirl

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 87 00:27:38 GMT
From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: Under even more influences

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>I have heard other people find the following influences on
>StarWars...C3P0 and R2D2 being Laurel & Hardy.

C3PO and R2D2 are actually modeled on the two comic characters of
Akiro Kurosawa's "The Big Fortress".  Lucas has stated he got the
whole idea of Star Wars from that film, and many of the details.  I
don't recall all the similarities I noted, but the source of the
light-saber is pretty obvious -- it's a high-tech samurai sword.
The films' opening scenes have similarities too.

Jerry Hollombe
hollombe@TTI.COM
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, x2483
{csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 17:26:17 GMT
From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: On a lighter note...

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>   _Ice Pirates_  - rented this one.  I wasted $2.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one here with a sense of humor.
I liked this one.  It's a hilarious send-up and deliberately so.
Granted, some of the gags are dumb, but overall I found it great
light entertainment.

If you liked things like "The Pirate Movie" and "Battle Beyond the
Stars" you'll like this one.  If not, go get a sense of humor. (-:

Jerry Hollombe
hollombe@TTI.COM)
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, x2483
{csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 05:45:15 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: On a lighter note...

hollombe@ttidcb.UUCP writes that ICE PIRATES was a waste of the $2
rental fee.

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one here with a sense of humor.
>I liked this one.  It's a hilarious send-up and deliberately so.
>Granted, some of the gags are dumb, but overall I found it great
>light entertainment.

Yeah, I liked it too. It was so unbelievably stupid it was a riot. I
mean, Space Herpie the Love Bug? ARGH!

The theater I saw it at had several seats in the front row roped
off, with rope passing across the arms and over the seat in such a
way as to hold anyone in the seat there. Reminded us of Vogon Poetry
Appreciation chairs, and the image fitted the movie.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 15:31 EDT
From: <RMALOUF%SBCCMAIL.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Rob Malouf)
Subject: Eraserhead

> The only reason anyone should see this movie is if they were
> poisoned and wanted to get sick.  The only flick I have ever seen
> worse than Zardoz was Eraserhead, but that's another story.

It certainly is!  I saw _Eraserhead_, and I am afraid I missed the
point.  Most of the audience seem to enjoy it (then again, most of
the audience was stoned!), but it seemed to me that the movie was
just filled with strangeness for strangeness' sake!  Each scene was
progressively more bizzare than the one before. *** Here there be
spoilers (not that it makes any difference) *** The whole section
from when the "hero's" head pops if in the radiator after listening
to the cauliflower-faced woman singing, falls into the street, is
taken to a pawn shop by a small boy, and made into pencil erasers is
probably one of the oddest sequences in cinema.  It also seems to be
totally unjustified?  I find it hard to believe that such a
pointless movie could be so well- acclaimed.  What did I miss?

Rob Malouf
Marine Sciences Research Center
State University of New York
Stony Brook, NY  11794-5000
RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:43 EST
From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
Subject: Good SF Movies

Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good SF
movie list.  While I thought that it was a very good story, (except
the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought the movie
was incredibly slow.  Granted, I may be somewhat jaded with today's
special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a 78rpm record
at 33rpm.  Some of the scenes felt a lot like the first Star Trek
movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the Enterprise.  I
just kept thinking "get on with it already."

Kaile Goodman
KGoodman@Smith.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 14:20:36 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies

From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
>Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good
>SF movie list.  While I thought that it was a very good story,
>(except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought
>the movie was incredibly slow.  Granted, I may be somewhat jaded
>with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a
>78rpm record at 33rpm.  Some of the scenes felt a lot like the
>first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the
>Enterprise.  I just kept thinking "get on with it already."

   It's probably not today's special effects that have jaded you so
much as Lucas-style fast cut editing. Still, a lot of people thought
2001 kind of slow when it was first released, too.  I believe the
shuttle docking footage was shortened right after the original
premiere.
   I liked both films, BTW.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 87 10:30:10 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: 2001: slow down, you move too fast

KGOODMAN@SMITH writes:
>Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good
>SF movie list.  While I thought that it was a very good story,
>(except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought
>the movie was incredibly slow.  Granted, I may be somewhat jaded
>with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a
>78rpm record at 33rpm.  Some of the scenes felt a lot like the
>first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the
>Enterprise.  I just kept thinking "get on with it already."

This comparison is not very fair to 2001.  ST:TMP's slow pan was a
self-indulgent celebration of the relaunching of the Enterprise
after all those years.  In contrast, the slowness in 2001 was
essential, and meant to be enjoyed directly, not rushed for the sake
of action or plot.  Have you ever been to a classical music concert?
I think you've been jaded by more than just today's special effects.
Too many top 40 hits, perhaps?

(Note--I'm not saying classical music is inherently superior to pop-
ular music or anything like that.  Just that they are different, and
have different tempos, and judging the one in terms of the other is
useless.)

Let's consider:

The docking scene, with Strauss' "Blue Danube" in the background, is
techno-ballet.  In one cut, Kubrick/Clarke have shown how man's
tools have evolved from crude bones to exceedingly complex systems
that can serve--even when incomplete--as both tool and art.  This is
an impor- tant thematic point, since for all our wonderful progress
as a species over the eons, we are shown in the film as still being
petty little nothings.

And on the Jupiter mission, we get the slow jogging and tour of the
ship accompanied by [damn, what was that beautiful melancholy music?
I think my mind is going...].  The isolation and loneliness of Dave
and Frank-- and Hal?--are painted very lovingly for us, a frame at a
time.  This is more than just the two or three main characters, mind
you, but our whole species that suffers from "the world as my
occupation, my niche, my non- contact, my anomie"--compare with
Star-Child.

I've seen the movie two or three dozen times at least over the
years, including one showing in a private little theatre that seats
ten with a megarich sound system.  I've never once felt an ounce of
impatience.

2001 is meant to enrapture, not just entertain.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 22:57:53 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies

KGOODMAN@SMITH.BITNET writes:
>Not surprisingly, several people have mentioned 2001 for the Good
>SF movie list.  While I thought that it was a very good story,
>(except the ending is a little "cosmic" for my tastes), I thought
>the movie was incredibly slow.  Granted, I may be somewhat jaded
>with today's special effects, but I felt like I was listening to a
>78rpm record at 33rpm.  Some of the scenes felt a lot like the
>first Star Trek movie when they spent about 20 minutes panning the
>Enterprise.  I just kept thinking "get on with it already."
> [...]

As some people have already pointed out, you are probably `spoiled'
by Star Wars, Galactica & Co. These are fast-paced *action* movies,
the dramaturgic equivalent of (excuse me) cop-and-robber stories.
They succeed if the viewer is drawn into the *action* and can't
escape until the end because (s)he *wants to know what happens*, and
also because (s)he *identifies with heroes* (and feels good about
it).

2001, on the other hand, is a completely different brand of movie.
It concentrates almost completely on creating a *mood*, a *feeling*.
Action, as far as it's in there at all, is not really essential to
its effect. (The desert scenes of *Lawrence of Arabia* come to my
mind for comparison.) The idea is to draw you into a certain state
of mind, put you into a *mood* and let you in some way *experience*
space rather than *telling* you about it.  That's why 2001 is *much*
better in large cinemas with good sound equipment - on a TV screen
it's outright wimpy.

One thing: 2001 gives a MUCH more realistic impression about space
travel than, say, Star Wars. Interplanetary space is LOTS of
(largely) empty space between the interesting spots. Interplanetary
travel is *long* and *lonely*.  In fact, being on such a voyage,
BOREDOM is certainly one of the main problems. I think that 2001 is
a real success for giving a realistic impression of an
interplanetary voyage. Actually, so far it's the best one I have
ever seen (no, experienced!). I believe that this creates the magic
of 2001, the reason why many people (including me) go and see it
again and again... because there's no plot to be spoiled; the mood
comes again, even better than before.

Of course, tie-fighters making U-turns on the spot and dodging
asteroids and enemy fire are much more exciting. Nothing against
Star Wars (I enjoyed it, too, as an archetypical fantasy saga). It
just appeals to rather different instincts in us, and if you go into
a cinema expecting the wrong thing, you're virtually certain to be
disappointed. Try to see 2001 again in a LARGE cinema, and try to
*give yourself up* to the (physical and mental) images that Kubrick
creates. Don't *think*, *feel*. Maybe you'll like it.

perry@inteloa.intel.com
...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 21:04:45 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!hobie@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Good vs Bad SF movies

  There is a movie which I saw back in Cretaceous times that I
really enjoyed but I have forgotten the title.  A spaceship
(actually I think there were two, one rescueing the crew of a first)
lands on a planet which bears evidence of a "dead" civilization.
They bury dead crewmembers from the first ship but later find that
the graves are empty.  It turns out that there are sentient aliens
which exist as "energy beings" (you know the type, fuzzy balls that
float in the air) which have re-animated the corpses.  Is this movie
"Angry Red Planet"? How about "Fuzzy Energy Beings that Wake the
Dead" or "The Not-So-Dead Civilization"?  Btw, this is an old movie,
maybe '50s or '60s.  Please reply via mail if you remember this one.

Hobie Orris
SoftQuad Inc.
Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4|decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 May 1987 08:31:58-PDT
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Bad Science Fiction Movies

In issue #201, I was surprised to see Supergirl lumped into
someone's list of the worst science fiction movies, along with Plan
9, Captain America, Mars Needs Women, and other real bow-wows.
Barbarella was in that list, too.

I guess I have to disagree with anyone placing all these movies into
the same category.  Of course, the other movies are real dreck, with
no redeemable quality except their absurdity.  But I found Supergirl
to be mildly interesting.  After watching it twice, I began to
appreciate it better, especially the evil ladies.  I kind of liked
the plot, although I agree it is simplistic and predictable, I just
do not think it compares with Plan 9.

Barbarella also has some merit ({8^o).  It has the most attractive
shots of Jane Fonda, ever (including her exercise cassettes).  The
spoof was absorbing and the '60s nostalgia is authentic.  (Yes, I'm
dating myself here).

Instead, replace these two entries in that list with some really
awful movies, like The Man With Two Heads and The Invisible Woman
(really STUPID).

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 00:00:51 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Re: sf movies

Hi.
     I thoght I would put my $2,000.02 worth in and tell you two of
the WORST movies, and one that was just plain BAD!!

1- ALL TIME WORST - The Thing with Two Heads starring Rosie Grear
and Ray Miland. Ray Miland perfects this way to transplant heads,
and Rosie Grear, instead of being executed, becomes his body. It was
just plain BAD!!!!! Watch it and judge for yourselves.

2- All Time Worst (If considered SF, tops the Above!!!)- Gator. It
is about a big alligator. Real Bad Stuff!!!

3- Bad Movie - The Car. About a Car that is posessed and kills
people.  Probably in the top 10 all time worst SF movies.

And Now for my favorite:
2001 & 2010: a classic followed by another classic, but I think 2010
was influenced too much by modern day tastes, and went too fast. It
definitely was much more fast paced than 2001. But then again, It
still was one of the best, so why complain.

John Langbein

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 15:01:47 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Bad Science Fiction Movies

marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>In issue #201, I was surprised to see Supergirl lumped into
>someone's list of the worst science fiction movies, along with Plan
>9, Captain...no redeemable quality except their absurdity.  But I
>found Supergirl to be mildly interesting.  After watching it twice,
>I began to appreciate it better, especially the evil ladies.  I
>kind of liked the plot, although I agree it is simplistic and
>predictable, I just do not think it compares with Plan 9.

I'd agree with you on this one - I thought Supergirl was a well
done, if superficial, release, and in no way compares with the worst
[although I haven't seen Plan 9].  I think Supergirl was done
extremely well, especially considering the givens.  Supergirl is a
so-so movie made very well, while I'll guess that Plan 9 is a
terrible movie, made poorly.  A fiction writing friend's advice
comes to mind - it's not important to have the best or most original
plot, as long as you write it well.  Similarly, I don't think that
any of the people who are just now discovering that Star Wars was
not wholly original [horrors!]  would be well supported in calling
that film a poor one.

Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #221
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #221
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 221

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Martin (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 14:32:39 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books
called WILD CARDS?  They're SF stories about superheroes, their
beginnings, their exploits, and their downfalls. Martin is the
editor of the book of short stories and Roger Zelazny is one
contributor. Books I and II are available now. Book III is due out
later this year. The stories are told in rough chronological order
starting in the mid-1940's.

Book I is very depressing at times. Just think McCarthy-era.  Book
II is more upbeat, sort of.

The books are written more like the DARK KNIGHT universe than say
the pre-Crisis Superman universe. The heroes in the books don't
directly relate to any superheroes of DC or Marvel.  But there is a
Dr. Strange type character and Green Arrow type character.

Royal White Jr.
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 13:02:56 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!mcm2434@RUTGERS.EDU (Martin Maenza)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

I too have read Wild Cards and the second book, Aces High.  It's a
very very enjoyable series for anyone who enjoys reading comic books
and superhero exploits.  The relative concept behind the project was
that during World War II, something happened (I won't say what as to
spoil it for those who haven't read the series) that would cause the
development of super-powered beings.  Those with no powers and no
deformaties are known as Aces, those with deformaties are known as
Jokers.  (Note: The third book in the series is called "Jokers Wild"
and is due late summer or early fall.)  Although each book contains
eight to ten short stories by various authors, they all are tied in
some way or form.  Authors refer to events in other authors' stories
and other author's characters.  Roger Zelazny used his character
Croyd in both books, so there is a sense of continuity between books
as well as stories.  Sometimes it is evident that you are reading a
different author (due to writing styles and such), but most of the
time it reads like a well continued story line.  Once again, I would
recommend the series whole heartedly (as would other friends of mine
who have read it).  Check it out.

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:52:10 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

I'd also recommend the WILD CARDS books, but as good junk reading,
and not much else (gee! just like comics!).  Royal White thought
their "universe" resembled DARK KNIGHT's; I disagree.  WILD CARDS
reminds me more of WATCHMEN and X-MEN (especially some of
Claremont's darker and/or future tales) than anything else.  The
Zelazny stories were OK, not great.  Lewis Shiner, whom I believe is
considered a "cyberpunk" author, did some very un-cyberpunk tales.
I liked George R.R. Martin's stories best (he's also the editor, so
the books are found under his name).  I will be buying the 3rd
volume.

In the 2nd volume, there's a story by a "Walt Simons".  Common
enough name, I suppose, but considering the topic of the books,
could this actually be Walt Simonson?  (I couldn't tell from the
story's style, which was unremarkable, but the story itself worked
well.)

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:19:48 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes:
>Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books
>called WILD CARDS?

Yeah.  Nice idea, decent execution.  Martin is one of the better
anthology editors out there these days.

For those that don't know, the story starts in the late 40's when an
alien civilization sprays a 'wild card' virus on new York city.
About 90% of the population is immune; of those that are left, about
90% dies, and the rest get random mutations -- some of them
beneficial (the Aces) most of them not (the Jokers).

The first book looks at the time from the start of the Wild Card era
to the 70's.  The McCarthy era is against mutants, not communists.
It looks at Vietnam and the peace movement (they send out mutants to
die in vietnam instead of normal folks).  It generally looks at
recent modern U.S. history (with a rather scathing (justifiably so
(as an aside, how deeply can I nest these perenthetical thoughts
before people start cringing?))) by bringing forward a new racial
group and showing how various times would deal with them. It IS
rather depressing, but it is strongly rooted in superhero comics
(the first story of the first book is an homage to Airboy, well
executed) as well as the more recent mutant series.  This is a book
most comic folks would love, and would also be a good book for SF
readers who don't read comics.

The second book is a lot weaker, not because the writing is worse
but because it simply can't sustain the emotional impact of the
first. It is primarily about Aces.  The third book will be about the
Jokers.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:45:31 GMT
From: hippo!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Bergan)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes:
> Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books
> called WILD CARDS?
>
> Book I is very depressing at times. Just think McCarthy-era.  Book
> II is more upbeat, sorta.
>
> The books are written more like the DARK KNIGHT universe than say
> the pre-Crisis Superman universe.

  Actually, I think they are more like Watchmen than anything else.
I found Book I quit good (Book I is titled "Wild Cards").  I didn't
enjoy Book II (titled "Aces High") quite as much, since the BEM plot
didn't do much for me (although at least the were realistic about
the level of death and destruction your typicall BEM invasion would
cause).

   The central idea was that a virus was released in the 1940's by
an alien race that effected a large percentage of the population.
Of those effected, about 1 in 10 gained "super" powers and became
"Aces". The other 9 in 10 suffered various detrimental side effects,
and became "Jokers". Both groups are traced from their formation up
through the present. The "Aces" go through McCarthy-era trials and
disgrace. The "Jokers" end up in ghettos, and rioting for equal
rights.

   The first book pretty much tried to establish the lead players
and events. The second book focused primarily on the "Aces". There
were hints that something was brewing in the Joker community in Book
II, and not surprisingly Book III will be titled "Jokers Wild".

   If you enjoy either Thieve's World type collections, comic books,
or alternate history stories, I would recommend reading Book I.
After that, decide if Book II will interest you or not.

   BTW, despite being a Zelazny fan, I found the two Zelazny stories
to be some of his worst writing, and certainly some of the weakest
stories in the books.

eric
...!ptsfa!hippo!eric

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 22:01:17 GMT
From: uwvax!uwmacc!rick@RUTGERS.EDU (the absurdist)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

eric@hippo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) writes:
>   I found Book I quit good (Book I is titled "Wild Cards").  I
>didn't enjoy Book II (titled "Aces High") quite as much, since the
>BEM plot didn't do much for me

Book 1 covers from the 1940s to now; it introduces a lot of
characters and tries to show how a post WWII world would have looked
with superpowered types; persecution of "aces" instead of "Reds",
for example.  As such, it has a rather disjointed feel.  Some
stories could stand on their own quite well; others are primarily of
interest because they are in the anthology.  Parts are depressing:
those times include some very unhappy ones in American history.

Book II is more upbeat, in general.  More importantly, since it is
focussed in the contemporary scene (some flashbacks, but almost all
mid-80s), it is much less disjointed than Book I.  The BEM plot
along with other plot threads give a common sense of where the story
is going; so I found the sense that "this must be a new author"
intruding less and less as chapter led to chapter.

>BTW, despite being a Zelazny fan, I found the two Zelazny stories
>to be some of his worst writing...

   Oh, hardly!  Zelazny can be much worse than this: try an tell me
what "RoadMarks" was about, for example.  Z's stories here are not
his best, but they certainly are better than many of the plotless
things he's turned out lately.  (By the way, I liked Roadmarks, and
in fact everything of his I've read: its just that some stories
leave me feeling like I'm reading the equivalent of Book of Kells
illumination being used to illuminate a shopping list.  His Wild
Cards stories, on the other hand, are not classics, but are readable
and memorable.

Rick Keir
UWisc - Madison
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 20:39:28 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@RUTGERS.EDU (Andy Finkel)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes:
>Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books
>called WILD CARDS?  Book I is very depressing at times. Just think
>McCarthy-era.

The most annoying thing about book 1 was that it makes the
assumption that the addition of 'wild card' powers would not make a
bit of difference to world history...it still comes out the same.

>Book II is more upbeat, sorta.
>
>The books are written more like the DARK KNIGHT universe than say
>the pre-Crisis Superman universe. The heroes in the books don't
>directly relate to any superheroes of DC or Marvel.

They seem to have gone further afield for their inspiration.  For
example, Dr. Tachyon is a (very) thinly disguised Dr Who.

Characters are pretty weak.  Very few of the wild-carded people seem
to have gone insane.  (functionally or otherwise)

And, somewhere, they've found a source of real evil people.  Unlike
most people in the 'real' world, they've actually got people who
know they're evil, enjoy being evil, etc.  No self-justification, no
differing viewpoints, etc.  Maybe that's how insanity is
represented.

Oh, well, the second book was better than the first.  And both are
moderately amusing.

andy finkel
Commodore/Amiga
{ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy
pyramid!amiga!andy

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 13:24:41 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

eric@hippo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) writes:
>rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes:
>> Has anyone out there been reading the George R. R. Martin books
>> called WILD CARDS?
>
>The central idea was that a virus was released in the
>1940's by an alien race that effected a large percentage of the
>population.  Of those effected, about 1 in 10 gained "super" powers
>and became "Aces". The other 9 in 10 suffered various detrimental
>side effects, and became "Jokers". Both groups are traced from
>their formation up through the present. The "Aces" go through
>McCarthy-era trials and disgrace. The "Jokers" end up in ghettos,
>and rioting for equal rights.

If you read the line a little further, 90 per 100 have a fatal
conversion; in the first story after the release, 'The Sleeper',
there is mention made of all the people coming apart in various
grotesque fashions.  Of the 10 who don't 'draw the black queen', 9
end up as jokers, and only one in a hundred 'draw an ace'.

Also, they make note of the fact that exposure to the virus was more
limited geographically; mainly the NYC area, where the battle
occurred, and from there carried by ship, plane, etc. to some small
number of major foreign cities, typically trade centers/ports.
Given that 90% of those exposed DIE, they didn't want to repopulate
the planet with affected types.

Bob Halloran
UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM
DDD: (201)251-7514 eve ET
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 18:37:30 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!andy@RUTGERS.EDU (Andy Finkel)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

>andy@cbmvax (Andy Finkel) writes:
>>The most annoying thing about book 1 was that it makes the
>>assumption that the addition of 'wild card' powers would not make
>>a bit of difference to world history...it still comes out the
>>same.
>
>I don't understand.  Why does this matter in the least?

Sorry if I wasn't clear...  it gave me the impression that the
writers/editors of the series had decided that the series really
starts with the current day; nothing important could happen before
this; the first book is simply a means of setting the stage.  Now
that (in book 2) we're up to modern times, the writers are allowed
to change history, and have the powers make a difference.  This is
what bothered me.  To have it come out the way that it did says that
the "wild card powers" left their possesors with no more effective
means of striking back than those accused in the 50's in our world.
Why wasn't there, for example a rash of heart attacks on the most
aggressive of the mutant (pardon me, wild card) haters ?  Blackball
an ace ?  Be serious!  There was no reason for the situation to
happen the same way, and several reasons for things to be different.
No one struck out at the Congressional investigators.  No one.  And
yet, most had the power to do so.

>Furthermore, I am completely confused by the very existence of this
>com- plaint.  The book announces that it plans to follow the
>superhero comic genre, and then indeed it follows the superhero
>comic genre.  For this you get annoyed????  I don't get
>it...somebody explain it to me!

Watchmen, Miracleman, Dark Knight, Swamp Thing, etc. have
demonstrated to me what can be done with the 'comic book' genre, if
the writer is willing to work a bit.  I was hoping for something
more on those lines.  Can you blame me ?

>Notice that I'm befuddled on two distinct levels.  First, just what
>is wrong, as a hook to hang a book on, with the question, "What if
>the world were just like ours, only different somehow?"?  And
>second, if you only like certain kinds of genres, why are
>criticizing it for not being the kind of genre that you like?  I
>generally don't like romances, for exam- ple, but I don't criticize
>them for not being spy thrillers.

I'm just saying that I found the path they choose the world to
follow was
   a) not especially logical, assuming that the base world was
      populated by individuals like ours, and
   b) the less interesting path

I like comics; but a series like 'Wild Cards' could be more than
just an average superhero comic.

>>And, somewhere, they've found a source of real evil people.
>>Unlike most people in the 'real' world, they've actually got
>>people who know they're evil, enjoy being evil, etc.  No
>>self-justification, no differing viewpoints, etc.
>
>Again, this is routine comic book genre stuff.  Sometimes it's
>overdone, but sometimes it's just perfect.  I wouldn't want it any
>other way.

Personal taste.  I has hoping for something other than Thieves'
World crossed with mutant mania.  I want the characters to have
human feelings, reasons for the actions they take (or at least
rationalizations).

andy finkel
Commodore/Amiga
{ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 222

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1987 09:51 PDT
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: GOOD sf/ST I

From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
>>     No one has mentioned THE TERMINATOR.  I thougt it was one of
>> the best SF movies of this decade...  Also I would include ST II,
>> and only ST II in my list (not I, not III, and not IV).
>
>FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie.  I thought ST II was a
>great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real
>Star Trek spirit.

   ...if you happen to think that being long-winded, boring, and
overly pretentious is in the "Star Trek spirit".  Robert Wise did a
great job on "The Day the Earth Stood Still", and "The Andromeda
Strain", but he blew it on this one.

    Nicholas Meyer (ST II) is the only GOOD director to work on any
of the Star Trek films.  He's the only one whose sense of timing,
action and pacing was really true to the show.  I mean, the special
effects shots in ST I took up OVER 25% OF THE FILM (a conservative
estimate to be sure).  Nimoy did a much better job on IV than he did
on III, but I still saw much room for improvement.

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 13:30:45 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Star Trek (Call me Mister)

On the subject of courtesy titles ("Mister," "Miss," etc.) and Star
Fleet personnel:

Spock addressed Uhura as "Miss" at least once in the first season
(sorry, my memory for episode titles isn't what it used to be):
"Miss Uhura, Vulcan has no moon." "I'm not at all surprised, Mr.
Spock."  (This is from a conversation on the bridge while they were
both on duty.)  I believe Kirk and perhaps even McCoy also addressed
Uhura as "Miss" at some point, but I defer to those who have seen
reruns more recently than I.

Based on a conversation between Leila Kalomi and Spock, in which he
tells her that she couldn't pronounce his "other name," I got the
impression that "Spock" is more what Kirk would consider a given
(first) name than a family (or Vulcan clan) name.  Perhaps this is
why he is addressed as "Mister."

Tangentially, my roommate offers the following explanation of why he
could never take K/S fiction seriously.  He pictures a passionate
love scene between Kirk and Spock: "Oh, James!"  "Oh, Mister!"
(This is a *JOKE*, people, so no flames to either me or my
roommate!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 87 13:32 EDT
From: <KUCHAR%BUASTA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Thomas A. Kuchar)
Subject: More on ST

This letter is in response to V12 #179 of SF Lovers digest.

I get a big kick out you people arguing over the fine points of
trivia in science fiction. It gets really ridiculous at times.

In response to people's arguments over `Mister' Saavik (who indeed
wears a Lt.'s rank in all 3 films), I just took it as being a
generic title used for every one, regardless of sex or planetary
origin.  If you note from Star Trek II and on, Spock is
intermittently referred to as Mr. Spock (which trekkies and
non-trekkies alike have and will continue to refer as) and
Capt.Spock.

As to using the universal translator in Star Trek IV, I have the
perfect solution as to it absence --- the writers (Nimoy et.al.)
forgot about it.  They, not being so well versed in trivia as some
of us, are ignorant of such fine details.  One can notice throughout
all the movies such a lack of continuity with the original series.

But what disturbs me more about STIV is this time travel stuff.  The
Earth that Kirk and company visited in 1986 has no relation to the
Earth that the TV series speculated would exist.  In the episode
`Space Seed' A eugenics war is about to occur in ten years, yet
there is no hint of such a war -- only the current struggle between
the US and USSR.  In 1986 Kahn should be walking around trying at
least to acquire a base of operations in preparation for the the
war. (He should be at least 25 by now!) Without Kahn in 1986 -
there's no `Space Seed', no `Wrath of Kahn', no death of Spock, no
`Search for Spock', no Kirk mutiny.  Major logical flaw!! Does
anybody agree?

Also Kirk's demotion to Capt. and giving him a new ship is somewhat
ludicrous.  If it weren't, Oliver North would be a major in the
Marines right now and in charge of the State Dept.  I realized
Kirk's reassignment was inevitable.  Anyway is three captains aboard
the Enterprise enough?  (Kirk, Spock, and Scotty - remember he was
promoted in STIII and was acquitted of mutiny in STIV, so he's a
capt. as well.)

Tom Kuchar
Boston University
KUCHAR@BUASTA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 87 01:50:47 GMT
From: cbmvax!vu-vlsi!hvrunix!sdorn@RUTGERS.EDU (Sherman Dorn)
Subject: Re: Startrek Loose End

dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune) writes:
> duplicate the research and to be in constant danger!  Now here's a
> Damsel in Distress, if there ever was one, dragons all around,
> people on the next planet to benevolent civilized societies, who
> will

Calling Carol Marcus (in ST IV) a Damsel in Distress . . .  Oh, I
don't feel like flaming this, but Mr. Grune please think carefully
about that.  While the TV series was sexist because of the time
(1960's), I'd hope the movies are not.  (Unfortunately, Kirk is
still an ass most of the time, but on the whole the movies II - IV
are generally much better than _Star Trek_.

Grune continues:

> who's going to rescue her?  He'll not only have to rescue her, but
> also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back into
> the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option).  And not
> through time

Oh, please!  Man rescues woman, conquers technology, and saves the
universe.  I hope ST V thinks of something more interesting.

Sherman Dorn
Haverford College

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 13:31 EDT
From: <GALAXY%BUASTA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: STAR TREK - The Next Generation

Great stuff you guys talk about.  I think you're being too
judgemental as far as the new ST though.  Wait and see before you
start criticize.  Most of the show has yet to be decided on.

One piece of info that I've found out completely by accident.  A
friend of mine has an uncle who's a property master at Paramount.
He's been trying to find out what's going on on the stages where the
new Enterprise is, but security is really tight.

But he did find out that the casting director is using another
soundstage for auditions.  This guy said he saw the man who played
Remington Steele (Pierce Brosnan is the actor's name, I think) in a
Star Trek Uniform -- one like they wore in the first movie.  I think
he's going to be the new first officer.  He seems to fit the
physical description of that people having been writing about on the
network.  Great casting, I think.

Danial D. Patterson
GALAXY@BUASTA

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 May 87 00:43:36-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re: Whalespeak

From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
>    In ST4(Whales etc.), why the hell didn't they just use their
>magic universal translator to interpret the probe's probing?  ...
>If the UT could be made to communicate with a gaseous cloud
>("Metamorphosis") that didn't even appear to have *LANGUAGE*,
>surely it could also be made to speak whalespeak (whalish?
>whalese?).

The Star Trek novel "The Tears of the Singers" by Melinda Snodgrass
used the same premise.  In this book the explanation was that the
universal translator produced "gibberish" because parts of the
Singers' "song" was ultrasonic, and not picked up by the translator.

Early on in the book, Spock runs a tape of the song thru the
computer and it comes up with three species which produced similar
sounds.  Among them was the "now extinct humpback whales of Earth".

bill

------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 May 87 01:03:32-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: more whalespeak

From: Glenn Hyman <hyman@ICS.UCI.EDU>
>Did anyone ever stop to think that the reason the universal
>translator didn't work for one major reason. The probe wasn't
>talking to us, it was talking to the whales in every case the
>translators have been used the subjects were talking directly to
>the persons with the translators. Well?????????? FLAME ON!!!!!

Well NO.....

The point of the stupid things is that they can TRANSLATE, no?
Whether or *not* they were talking to us...  If you tell me you
never overheard anything you weren't supposed to hear that was
spoken obviously cryptically, yet made perfect sense to the paranoid
human mind, then i'll call you a liar... FLAME ON!!!

bill

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 87 14:38:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: More on ST

From: <KUCHAR%BUASTA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Thomas A. Kuchar)
> But what disturbs me more about STIV is this time travel stuff.
> The Earth that Kirk and company visited in 1986 has no relation to
> the Earth that the TV series speculated would exist. In the
> episode `Space Seed' A eugenics war is about to occur in ten
> years, yet there is no hint of such a war -- only the current
> struggle between the US and USSR. In 1986 Kahn should be walking
> around trying at least to acquire a base of operations in
> preparation for the the war. (He should be at least 25 by now!)
> Without Kahn in 1986 - there's no `Space Seed', no `Wrath of
> Kahn', no death of Spock, no `Search for Spock', no Kirk mutiny.
> Major logical flaw!! Does anybody agree?

Not in the least.

Just because no mention is made of Khan [note spelling] in
present-day in STAR TREK IV, he doesn't exist? Yes, he's there
somewhere in Asia, building his power base, waiting till the time is
right to start his conquest. But that's totally irrelevant to the
film's story. They could have had a random tv broadcast or newspaper
mention Khan by name in relation to some event, but that would have
been totally gratuitous, nothing more than a "nudge nudege wink
wink" aimed at the Trekkies in the audience. There was no reason
within the context of the story that we should've been given a
detailed rundown of the complete geopolitical situation.

However, I will grant you that there doesn't seem to be any
indication in the film that present-day Earth is advanced enough for
a planet-wide eugenics program to be taking place (Khan was supposed
to have been a product of such a program, so it would have had to be
started no later than the early 70's). It would have been more
consistent for present-day ST Earth to be more advanced than our own
in the biological sciences.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 12:14:29 GMT
From: dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune)
Subject: Re: Startrek Loose End

sdorn@hvrunix.UUCP (Sherman Dorn) writes:
>dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune) writes:
>> Damsel in Distress, if there ever was one, dragons all around,
>
>Calling Carol Marcus (in ST IV) a Damsel in Distress . . .  Oh, I
>don't feel like flaming this, but Mr. Grune please ...

Yes, you're right; the language is too flowery, and so is the
underlying thinking. Nevertheless the danger to C.M. is real and not
a figment of my medieval mind.

>> who's going to rescue her?  He'll not only have to rescue her,
>> but also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back
>> into the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option).  And
>> not through time
>
>Oh, please!  Man rescues woman, conquers technology, and saves
>the universe.  I hope ST V thinks of something more interesting.

Sounds indeed corny, put that way. The formulation is sexist; I
should have said: They'll not only ..., etc.  I still think she will
need help to deal with the Enemy, and the crew of the Enterprise A
have shown they can give plenty of that.  And putting the knowledge
back into the box will take the ingenuity of crew and Dr. C.M.
together. Might still be a story.

Dick Grune
Vrije Universiteit
de Boelelaan 1081
1081 HV  Amsterdam
the Netherlands
dick@cs.vu.nl
...!mcvax!vu44!dick

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 87 02:15:27 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!canisius!macchia@RUTGERS.EDU (Mad Man)
Subject: Re: More on ST

KUCHAR@BUASTA.BITNET writes:
> Anyway is three captains aboard the Enterprise enough?  (Kirk,
> Spock, and Scotty - remember he was promoted in STIII and was
> acquitted of mutiny in STIV, so he's a capt. as well.)

Correction, There are four captains aboard the Enterprise !
(Kirk,Spock, Scotty, AND Sulu) This is brought up many times in the
book STIV:TVH.

Nick Macchia
Canisius College
2001 Main St.
Buffalo,NY 14208
VOICE:  (716) 876-6298
UUCP:   {decvax|watmath|allegra|rocksvax}!sunybcs!canisius!macchia
        ...!ames!canisius!macchia

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 87 13:26:20 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: STIV - The Voyage Home

   I have only recently seen the film, and even more recently the
book, so my apologies for entering the Great Translator Debate a bit
late. To all those who say "Why didn't they use the Universal
Translator?", the reply is that, in the book by Vonda N. Macintyre
at least, the U.S.S. Saratoga did attempt to use the translator. The
translator overloaded.
   The probe, or "traveler" as it calls itself in the book, could
not tell tell the difference between radio emissions and other
electromagnetic emissions, such as light and heat from stars. It
treated them all the same : it drained them. It recognised no life
associated with them.
   What I want to know is, how did it receive the whales' songs?
Sound cannot travel through the vacuum of space. Telepathy perhaps?

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 87 20:49:40 EDT
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Beaming with your cloaking device plugged-in.

   If I recall from when Kirk originally stole the device from the
Romulans, the main problem with the cloaking device was the power
drain.  Since most forms of power (now known) propagate under the
inverse-square law, one can reasonably expect the short ranges
involved in STIV to favorably affect the amount of power needed to
operate the transporter.  Less distance implies less power drain.
Soooo... the impulse engines could reasonably provide power for
cloaking AND transporting while the bird was grounded.  Previous
examples had the bad guys either beaming up past the atmosphere (as
a minimum) or trying to cloak, shoot, and perform battle manuevers
at Warp speed-- all of which should just KILL one's gas mileage.
   I have to agree whole-heartedly with the remark about their luck
and the lack of amateur athletes trying the infamous line-drive-
thru-the-landing-gear stunt.  Oh well-- enjoyed it anyway!

   Oh yes, one loose end to tie up before it strangles me.  When the
whales were beamed up, 1) they were relatively close to the surface,
and 2) with the main drive repaired, there could reasonbly have been
much more power available than with impulse power-- enough to
sustain cloaking, hovering, and a *short* transport.  (Or did they
beam in the whales while scaring the whalers?)

Regards,
Dave Wegener
20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 May 87 1057-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #223
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 May 87 1057-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #223
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 223

Today's Topics:

                  Books - E.E. Doc Smith (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 15:57:35 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

ltsmith@mitre.ARPA writes about
FIRST LENSMAN, the second book of E. E. 'Doc' Smith's LENSMAN series:
>IT WAS AWFUL!!  TRULY AWFUL!!!
>
>I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally
>poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally
>had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so many
>people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven alone knows
>why....

Yes, the series is sexist, wooden, and a scientific travesty...

but it was some of the first sf I read, and it does have a certain
appeal. If it were written now it would be horrible, but being forty
or so years old, I can make allowances for it. (It is that old, not
me...)

Also, anyone who is a space-opera fan really should read it just for
a sense of the development of the sub-genre. 'Doc' Smith was one of
the first and best (well, subjective judgment... Sheri would
disagree), and you just don't get more space-operaish than this.

   The Lensmen are the heroes of the whole Galactice race,
   Pursuing thieves and villians throughout interstellar space...
   The Eichmil roar, the zwilniks flee, the blast-beams fly apace,
   As ships and plot go down the tubes at an amazing pace.

      [filksong verse reconstructed (incorrectly) from memory]

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 19:13:43 GMT
From: eppstein@tom.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: The Lensman Series

Shoshanna Green writes about E.E. 'Doc' Smith's Lensman series:
> Yes, the series is sexist, wooden, and a scientific travesty...
>
> but it was some of the first sf I read, and it does have a certain
> appeal. If it were written now it would be horrible, but being
> forty or so years old, I can make allowances for it. (It is that
> old, not me...)

But James Schmitz wrote Agent of Vega almost forty years ago (I
remember copyright dates of 1949 or so, although the stories were
not collected into a book until the early 1960s), and these stories
have none of the deficiencies you mention.  I don't remember when
his other stuff such as the Telzey stories was written, but it was
also a long time ago.

So anyway I am less inclined to excuse other authors such as Smith,
since we have here a proof that those times were not as
unenlightened as those of us who came later (my copy of Agent of
Vega is older than me) might think.

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 19:43:10 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>:
>found book number TWO...(flame on!!!)  IT WAS AWFUL!! ...I found it
>trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally poorly done
>in terms of character/story development...  Now, I have nothing
>against "older" SF, and can happily suspend my current level of
>technical knowledge and read an out of date story for the story's
>sake...

You would have done better to start with "Triplanetary", which is
devoted to stage setting.  However, you would not have found it
substantively different.

Clearly you *do* have something against "older" science fiction, if
you think that older science fiction should be modern science
fiction with vacuum tubes instead of semiconductors.  To enjoy the
science fiction of half a century ago you have to suspend not just
your technological prejudices (the Lensmen books haven't done too
badly there, anyhow) but your literary and social ones as well.
There is a great difference between the use of a trite plot device
and the use of the same device back when it was fresh.  There are
even greater differences between now and half a century ago in our
myths: we expect much different things of our heroes and our
villains.

Patronizing to women?  For his time, Smith's women are very strong.
More generally a point was made (by Heinlein, I believe) that much
of the modern objection to Smith's treatment of women is grounded in
the smug assumption that the mores of the thirtieth century will
resemble the enlightened mores of the 1980's rather than the
benighted mores of the 1920's.  The idea becomes ludicrous when
expressed that way, doesn't it?

I'll agree that the Lensmen series is not finely polished
literature, that the characterization is minimal, the plot
development often crude.  Indeed, it reads like a pulp, doesn't it?
It also has the besetting weakness of space-opera: it has to
compensate for these lacks by exponentially increasing the size and
strength of the enemy in each installment.

But it's a fun read.  It's got a scope we don't believe in any more.
It pioneered much of what today is 'trite' in science fiction.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 01:48:37 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

I believe the E.E. Smith exercise is also semiannual... 8-)

BUT: YES (read my lips 8-), IT IS FAIRLY SEXIST IN PLACES, AND IS IN
FACT SOMEWHAT ANACHRONISTIC FOR THE PRESENT DAY.

So is _Don Quixote de La Mancha_.

No, to be fair, that isn't a valid comparison on my part- DQdLM is
somewhat older than Lensman, and from a different culture.

The women in the series aren't neccessarily weak.  They are,
however, subordinate to the men, and are weaker than their perfect
mate (or equally powerful, at best.)  But by the same token, they
are vastly more powerful in terms of mind and authority than the
majority of the planets (male and female populations) they
encounter, unless the planet is more powerful than Earth.... which
is quickly corrected by the Earthers gaining the knowledge, ability,
tools, etc....

Space Opera is the genre.

I'm not claiming that it is fine literature. (I despise a fair
amount of "fine literature", but that doesn't matter here 8-)

But it IS a fairly good series as entertainment, considering its age
and format.  These are books that were pulps once, at least in
spirit, and sometimes in body.

I've read the series, as well as the "Skylark" series, and a couple
of his books that fit the same format as Lensman, but are slightly
different in setting.

I read them once in a while, if I'm hard up for books.  They failed
to provoke any realy "new" thought...

I wonder why? Perhaps because modern SF has drawn those thoughts,
put them in different forms, added to them, etc...?  Somehow the
books seemed familiar... 8-)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 08:37 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: The Lensman Series

I had a similar experience--I don't remember which book I read, or
even anything about it, but I was amazed that something so awful
could be so highly regarded.

I tried to get some fans to explain it to me, and finally decided
that the books included some original ideas, appearing for the first
time in SF, that were later picked up and used in GOOD stories.  So,
for people who prefer "this-was-the-first-time" to "good" (generally
the same types who blast SW and ST for stealing ideas from
elsewhere) the Lensmen series is a classic.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 16:48:02 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
> If it were written now it would be horrible, but being forty or so
>years old, I can make allowances for it. (It is that old, not
>me...)

Is it really only 40 years old? I thought it was more like 50 years
old. I don't have copies of the books handy; anybody want to check
copyright dates?

I think _Galactic Patrol_ is the oldest. I thought it was written in
1930 - 1935 or so. I don't really remember this well, though.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 17:58:26 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #200 The Lensman Series
From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

Sheri,

Sorry you didn't like one of the perennial occupants of the
booksellers shelves.  Look at the dates on the Lensman books; they
are 40 to 50 years old.  Of course they are:

        AWFUL!!  TRULY AWFUL!!!

trite
belittling
patronizing to women
poorly done in terms of character/story development

yet ...so many people have spoken so well of it over the years

Certainly pre-ERA.  I doubt Doc Smith was looking to sell to the
female audience, or as great lit., either.  These stories were pulp
magazine material, no more.  They were much more original then.

This is SPACE OPERA! Like "Victory at Sea".  Not many women or much
character developement there either.  Just a big grand shoot 'em up.

I disagree about story developement.  If there is any strength to
the series, it is the consistency of the plot unfolding.

The Lensmen Stories are:

   Triplanetary
   First Lensman
   Galactic Patrol
   Grey Lensman
   Second-Stage Lensman
   Children of the Lens

I would read Galactic Patrol first; Triplanetary is really several
short storys, and First Lensman is a bit dry.  Grey Lensman is the
best adventure yarn of the lot, and Second-Stage Lensman produces
the only female Lensman, guess who.  Children of the Lens ends
things, so read them in this order:

   Galactic Patrol
   Grey Lensman
   Second-Stage Lensman
   Triplanetary
   First Lensman
   Children of the Lens

If you didn't (or don't) like the Lensmen series, that is just fine.
Everybody doesn't have to.  I suspect many people like EES books
because of his style.  No adventure too big. Read SKYLARK DuQUESNE,
as much as you can, and see.

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 20:00:38 GMT
From: motown!bunker!hjg@RUTGERS.EDU (Harry J. Gross)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
>One of the ones they all agreed upon was E. E. "Doc" Smith's
>Lensman series.  Now, I had been hearing about these books for
>years, and had been looking off and on for them for quite some
>time, without success.  Could never find the first book, don't you
>know, and I do prefer to start

   It's called Triplanetary

   Actually, I thoroughly enjoyed the series.  It was written a long
time ago, and perceptions were different back then.  One must take
that into account when reading it, or you will probably be offended.
(Unless, of course, you are a male chauvenist p*g :-) As to the
science, it is truly off base.  Of course, when it was written, the
idea of an all pervasive stuff refered to as 'ether' was quite
popular, and Michalson-Morley had not yet disproved it.  Hence, much
of the pseudo-science is _way_ off base.

   Whew!  All that aside, if read strictly as a morality yarn, it
really is quite good.

   I expect to be severly flamed by all who _hate_ Doc Smith, but I
anticipate that there are a significant number of supporters, too
:-)

Harry Gross
{phri|nyit|helm}!gor!hjg

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 02:31:51 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

"Galactic Patrol" (the first Lensman story to be _written_) is
approximately 10 years older than Schmitz's "Agent of Vega".

Then there is the fact that while Smith didn't _sell_ it until
around 1927, he _wrote_ "The Skylark of Space" before the first
World War! He was quite a bit older than Schmitz and it shows in his
attitudes.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 21:32:53 GMT
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series (SPOILERS)

Clark_A._Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.COM writes:
>The Lensmen Stories are:
>
>Triplanetary
>First Lensman
>Galactic Patrol
>Grey Lensman
>Second-Stage Lensman
>Children of the Lens

Facts of interest about the Lensmen series:

The books were first written as pulp magazine serials in the order:

Galactic Patrol
Grey Lensmen
Second-Stage Lensmen
Children of the Lens

The other two books appeared later only as books:

Triplanetary
First Lensman

The space hijacking story from TRI was first published as a
non-lensmen short story.

FL was written because the publisher offered Smith a deal he
couldn't refuse (i.e. write this book or we won't consider the book
you want to write)

Reading the serials is a very different experience from the books.
You, the reader, find out the true fact about what is going on at
the same time as Kinnison does.  For instance the first mention of
Eddore is in the second to last chapter of SSL.  All of the prologs
and epologs about the Arasia-Eddore conflict were added when the
serials were turned into books.

The cute found a message frame story for CotL was added for the
book.  The last chapter of CotL was also changed, because the first
hardback publisher didn't like some of the things implied (e.g that
Chris and his sisters would end up in a 5 way incestuous
relationship in order to breed the new replacement race for the
departed Arasians).

The book "Vortex Blaster" is a independent novel set in the Lensmen
Universe somewhere between SSL and CotL.

Different Topic: Skylark series

Skylark, Skylark Three and Skylark Valirion were also first
published as serials.  Skylark Deuquesne was written in the early
60's due to publisher pressure over wanting something new to add to
a reprint of the series.  I have found no differences (except typo
correction) between the Skylark serials and the books.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

P.S. Thanks to Bill Glass at The Change of Hobbit Book store in
        Santa Monica, CA for help with some of the details.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 18:11:10 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!polyslo!cquenel@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Quenelle)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

I absolutely agree with you Sheri!  :-)

BUT -- I read the first in the series first (The name escapes me.)
And it was /good/ in the true Mike Hammer/Doc Savage/etc style
(Apologies to those who dislike Mike Hammer (the TV show).)

I could even FORCE myself to finish the second book, but I bought it
only because of the first one.

At least one of my friends concurs heartily with me about this.

Has anyone out there read ALL of them ? (Or at least /more/ of them
?)  Do they get better (I would doubt it, just on instinct) ?

A NOTE to those sensitive (and some, /over/ly sensitive) to the
dread crime ........ (whispered) sexism.

While reading old/very old science fiction, when you turn off your
disbelief of the proposed "scientific advances" people thought were
going to happen back in the 40's - 60's, please, just extend your
disbelief a little further and understand that as much as an
attitude toward science was a characteristic of that society, so was
an attitude towards women.  We don't subscribe to that attitude
anymore (well, hardly anybody, :-), and no one we pay any attention
too, right ?), but regardless: Sexism was the prevalent moral
attitude, please try to understand that these writers were writing
to be understood by the readers of the time, and they did not want
their readers to think :
  "Jeez, what is this a guy, a suffragette or something ?"

So, have a little understanding.  It makes everything go down
smoother.  You don't have to agree, but just suspend your disbelief
for the length of the book.  If you can suspend disbelief of flying
to the stars or traveling in time, or dragons and witches and 12
dimensional spaces, you can suspend your disbelief of male
superiority long enough to listen to the tale the book is trying to
say.

Sorry this is a little long-winded, but I feel strongly about this.

I think every man is free to be a sexist, or a bigot, or whatever,
just as his peers are free to spurn him, but that "spurning" is
between him, and you and I get tired of reading about it in every
other article here.

Chris Quenelle
ucbvax!voder!polyslo!cquenel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 May 87 0856-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #224
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 87 0856-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #224
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 224

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 04:00:51 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #210

From: Zigetty <PEU1347%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
>   This is my first reply to SF-LOVERS so I will make no
>apologies..  First subject is Heinlein.  Yes I accept the important
>role he has had in the evolution of SF as an acceptable genre (end
>of praise).  However, let me add my 5 cents worth to the debate.
>Heinlein was years before his time in that he pre-empted the
>laissez-faire/new right libertarianism which is sweeping the west.
>How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic piece
>of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and
>typical work) is beyond my comprehension.  Despite the fact that
>the U.S.  was crippled both economically and politically by its
>involvement in S.E.  Asia,people still maintain that Heinlen is a
>credible author.  What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER
>WAR ?  Or seen Platoon....

  (Well, I finally got unbacklogged- with this as the last one, I
kind of wish I was still backlogged...)

_Starship Troopers_ concerns a military of the future, human beings
versus aliens who are not understood and who are not in the least
friendly.  This I do not find unbelievable.  We don't even
understand different HUMAN cultures, and yet aliens are all supposed
to be NICE?

The characters are not twisted murderers.  They are soldiers.  The
main character's biggest emotion during the combat sections is fear.
The humans interact as humans, not as psychopathic robots.  The
premise is a war with aliens.  What makes this worse than any of the
hundreds upon hundreds of other books about humans vs. aliens? (If
you hated this, DON'T read Sheckley, or Saberhagen, or Smith,
or.....)

As far as Vietnam and Korea (I presume this is "S.E. Asia"?)  Read
_Glory Road_- Oscar's experiences in this area aren't real neat.
The enemy are the enemy- getting chopped by a bolo machete didn't
exactly weaken that view for Oscar.  Thus, would he be imperialist
Jingoist?

And by the way, yes I've read _The Forever War_, and seen _Platoon_
Golly whiz, I guess I'm supposed to be able to judge from those
alone?

(Just as a minor aside, to anyone interested in biographies of
soldiers in Vietnam, _Ringed In Steel_ and _Chickenhawk_ are kind of
enlightening.  Personally, all I can say is I'm damn well glad I
wasn't there.  Right now I'm prime USDD grade-A #1 draft pick- makes
me interested.)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 18:52:00 GMT
From: harvard!ima!inmet!janw@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

>leonard@bucket.UUCP writes:
>mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>>I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably
>>couldn't do it justice.  Can someone more literate than myself
>>explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a
>>supremely offensive tale?
>
>It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend
>the sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our
>cultural "givens" are _not_ laws of nature.
>
>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case (cases?)
>for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms.  Cannibalism,
>marriage, sex, religion...

Yes, it seems to be a consistent strategy of Heinlein to challenge
several taboos per book.

What I liked about SIASL, however, was not that - not the second
half with the sex-cult utopia, but the beginning, introducing an
*alien way of thinking*. It is a very difficult and rare thing in
SF. Mike (the human brought up by Martians) thinks more than he
acts, and we are given a glimpse of his thoughts (described in such
terms as "grokking", "cherishing" and "waiting").

It's only a glimpse, and then Mike gradually becomes a normal
Heinlein human hero, magnanimous, brave and sexually liberating.
Still, the book comes to grips, for a few moments, with a major
limitation of SF.

It is easy to describe three-eyed, seven-tentacled beings.  But
aliens, or future people, who *think* and *feel* quite differently
from us (as they most surely must) are hard to imagine and harder to
make a readable story around it.  The usual procedure is inventing a
strange entourage and making it feel "real" by filling it with
ordinary, next-door people.  Content of their thoughts may be
different, but the style and method of thinking is, not just human,
but that of the author's own period and subculture.

This deprives such SF of most predictive value. Whatever the future,
or other worlds, hold in stock, it can't be *that* - not 20'th
century Americans masquerading as galactic monsters.  Mentality
changes as fast as technology, faster than anatomy.

SIASL (part of it) is a valuable exception.

Jan Wasilewsky

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 03:46:34 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Well, here's to Heinlein again.  People who are sick of all that
Heinlein stuff are cordially invited to hit 'n'/'j'/whatever or else
keep quiet.

I've waited for some time to see what responses we would get to that
`essay' and my response to it. Actually, I am a little bit surprised
about the level of discussion - positively, that is. I have seen the
net break out into flame wars on much more harmless things like the
issues we have raised here. In fact, many people have managed to
stick to the underlying themes rather than declare their `hate' of
the author. Those who didn't have made their own declaration of
personal worth.

My original posting indicated that maybe this group is not the right
place for these discussions. Several people have told me and the net
in no uncertain terms that they think it IS. Thank you; I do agree
with you. I was just covering my ... backside from expected flames.
Curiously, there were rather few of them - as I said, a positive
surprise. OK, then, I'll stay here and say my say. Thanks,
obviously, to those who said they liked my little piece. And no, I
did not intend to slight literature professors - just students who
have a null-dimensional view of what literature is all about...

And now enough of the past. The merits, or lack thereof, of the
`essay' that started all this have been examined by many; I really
don't want to go back to that. The net consensus seems to be that no
matter whether the ideas of *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* are wrong
or right, Mark's essay fails as an attempted work of literary
criticism. (Or would you really defend it on these grounds, Kev?)

The discussion seems to move from the one book to `general
Heinlein'. A good thing, too; as many have pointed out, a single
book is not a good base to judge any author, much less Heinlein
whose writing shows quite some diversity.

I'll put up a few separate responses for articles that require some
length.  Yes, Kev, one is for you. Beyond that, I have some minor
remarks to some postings; I will collect these here. I am sure that
I have forgotten or ignored some relevant contributions; so just
because I don't talk about YOURS doesn't mean I agree (or disagree)
with you. The quotations are in no particular order.

Gordon E. Banks (geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu) thinks that
Heinlein's "credentials as a libertarian" are suspect, that he has
"a bit too much of the feudal" in his characters and "relies on the
idea that the good are going to be strong enough to quash the
bullies". In fact, I am positive that Heinlein is no libertarian.
Complete libertarianism is an idealization, and Heinlein doesn't
deal in idealizations, he works with realities. None of his lead
characters would die for an idea, though they would (and sometimes
do) die for their family and their society (juvies excepted - I'm
talking about `mature' Heinlein characters). I don't think that he
is `feudal' in the technical sense (which is rather specialized),
though I grant that some elements are there. If you consider his
extended family groups, like the Tertius family (in *Time Enough For
Love*), one of the advantages that Lazarus Long mentions explicitly
is that the death of any individual member of the family doesn't
destroy the whole; that NO ONE is indispensable. Even Lazarus Long
in that `model family' is a *member*, though a highly respected one;
NOT some kind of autocratic ruler.

MacLeod (macleod@drivax) thinks that most of Heinlein's "adult
authority figures" are "touched by bitterness and cynicism". If that
means that they are *realists* who have shed their naivity and
(many) illusions, that is true. I guess that's supposed to be part
of growing up; they could hardly be "adult" figures if they hadn't.
Yet I cannot find excessive bitterness or cynicism in many of them -
in fact, most of them seem to enjoy life a lot.  Maybe we use the
word differently - if cynicism is knowing that the world isn't like
you'd want it to be, and bitterness is knowing that it will never
be, then you are right. Yet I'd take knowledge and realism over
self-created illusions any time. Hard on your soft spots, to be
sure, but infinitely more satisfying in the long run.

Darren L. Leigh (dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu) has done a real good
job in distilling the `Heinlein character typus', though he
expresses it a bit uncharitably. One thing, though:

>  Fifth: All of the novels with Lazarus Long, a man who feels he is
>  above the law because he is older than it and knows he will
>  outlive it.

In a sense, I guess you could say that he considers himself `above
the law'.  Yet the reason is not that he considers himself to be
somehow superior, or that he thinks he can get away with it (by
outliving it); after all, a bullet can kill him as easily as the
next man. It is just that he (as most other Heinlein heroes) does
not ascribe any mythical significance to law and government - laws
are there to help organize society; if they don't serve the purpose,
they are useless and to be disregarded. One definite point of
Heinlein is that he does not believe that a majority is
automatically wiser, juster or more effective than a single person.
He strongly believes in *individual worth* (or can you say *valor*).
Doesn't sit too well with idealistic democrats and egalitarians, of
course.

Thanks to Eric Carpenter (ccs006@ucdavis) for answering one of the
sillier flames around Heinlein. There is one recurring objection to
Heinlein that I'd like to answer to: `He has supported the Vietnam
war, so he must be a lowlife jerk' (paraphrased).

Why do some people have such a knee-jerk reflex about Vietnam? Yes,
I know, this is mostly a rhetorical question. Still, perhaps, before
you accuse him of rampant militarism, you should read some of his
work. Not just the SF novels (though that *should* cure you), but
some of his non-fiction articles.  (You *do* know that Heinlein
writes non-fiction, do you?) To sum it up: he didn't support the
idea of the Vietnam war (knowing quite well that the whole setup was
untenable); but he argued that once the U.S. had officially
committed itself to an alliance with South Vietnam, it should stick
to that commitment. He wanted the U.S. to publicly recognize that a
FULL-SCALE WAR was going on, rather than doing as if this was some
police action that could be solved without any national commitment,
and he thought that going in with the full force of the U.S.
military would save thousands of lifes, compared to the half-cooked
approach that was actually taken. And he was and is appalled by the
treatment that U.S. soldiers got for risking their lives *for their
country*.

Heinlein's position towards the military is *cautiously positive*.
He maintains that any society, to remain viable, needs to be *able
and willing* to apply force if needed, and that cultures that have
become squeamish in this respect have historically had a short
lifespan. (Check your references - for better or worse he's quite
right there!) And his main philosophy IS realism and pragmatism;
thus, if a military is necessary for a society to survive, then it's
a *good thing* to have one. You may disagree, but then please do so
with rational arguments. While being afraid (of war and loss and
death) is natural and understandable, it is no justification for
letting those fears take over your brain.

[A short aside to Eric: the concept of `the Mob' as a mass of people
taking on properties different from those of its elements is not SF,
it's (often unfortunate) reality. See some standard texts on mass
psychology. Heinlein just applies reality here.]

A somewhat disgruntled response to one of Kevin's (ugcherk@joey's)
previous replies (to someone else):

>every time Heinlein has a character who exhibits a strong
>ideological viewpoint and likes to preach about it, *that character
>always advocates a rigid, elitist, intervening government.*

That is flatly wrong. Did you really hear Lazarus Long advocate
`rigid government', let a lone an `intervening' (interventionist?)
one? In fact, in about all Heinlein novels that I can think of, from
*Double Star* through *Stranger in a Strange Land* to *Friday*,
governments come away as inefficiently bumbling at best, and as
murderously corrupt at worst. If Heinlein is `elitist', his members
of the `elite' are usually loners, going it alone or in small,
trusted family groups. They wouldn't dream of wasting their time in
government...

For Heinlein's "support" of the Vietnam war, see above. However,

>He doesn't advocate freedom: he advocates powerful government so
>that he can be one of the power elite.

The LAST thing that Heinlein advocates is `powerful government'. If
anything, his characters are *individualists at heart* who don't
want anything to do with governments. (Consider Lazarus Long's
expressed opinions about governments and administrations!) I guess
you could call Heinlein `elitist' in that he does believe in the
*inequality* of people, and in that a strong person has any right to
use his/her strength to good advantage. It is also a fact of life
that being strong tends to give you power. Yet, I really resent the
cheap shot you are trying here. Sounds like he's a member of a
conspiracy to wipe out democracy... I think you can do better, Kev.

Many thanks to Ken Barry who pointed out the parallels between the
loonie fight and the American revolution. Quite right. Again (and I
know I repeat myself), Heinlein is concerned with *reality* rather
than any idealistic image. Things are usually not done because they
fit into some abstract morality scheme, but because someone decides
to go out and do them, or else is pressed by circumstances and other
people to try. I guess this is especially true for revolutions.

As for Heinlein not being "iconoclastic enough" to "get his real
message across to a lot of the readers", may I refer you to Jubal
Harshaw in *Stranger in a Strange Land*. I think that Harshaw's
working morals (he's, among other things, a pulp writer) are in some
ways quite indicative of Heinlein's own.  Remember that Heinlein
writes (or wrote) for a living, and he had no intention to end up an
`esteemed writer' who didn't sell. As a realist, he wrote for a
broad audience.

One of the most impressive abilities of a writer is to create a
story in *layers* - on a superficial level it might be a nice
adventure story, while on a deeper layer it might convey a moral
message. In his best works, Heinlein managed that, with the
additional twist that even if you read, say, *Time Enough For Love*
as a straight adventure story, some of the philosophic contents
still manage to get at your brain (almost subversive :-). Certainly,
if you want to get something across, writing a good story with
`optional' deeper contents is a better way than writing an
`iconoclastic' novel that few people will read. (Though he has done
that, too - *Stranger In A Strange Land* comes close.)

OK, 'nuff for this article, it's getting long again. Thanks for
reading, and feel free to comment on any aspect you like.
Rationally, if possible.

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 May 87 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #225
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 87 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #225
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 225

Today's Topics:

             Films - Night Skies & Wizards & Android &
                     Shivers & Spaceballs & Wavelength &
                     Lord of the Rings & Good/Bad Movies (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 87 01:23:19 GMT
From: nee@sdics.ucsd.edu (Clydene Nee)
Subject: Re: watch the skies!

Actually, the name of the film that Spielberg was working on right
before "ET" was called "Night Skies."  Rick Baker, and Bill
Sturgeon, who did the special makeup effects for "An American
Werewolf In London," were working on the alien characters for "Night
Skies" when Spielberg decided to work on "ET".  So Spielberg shut
down production on "Night Skies", and hired Carlo Rambaldi to do
"ET".

Curiously enough the story line for "Night Skies" was quite similar
to "Gremlins," which I heard about 2 years before "Gremlins" was
released.

Does anyone out there have anything to add to this story?

clydene nee

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 03:03:58 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: Wizards

DANDOM@UMass.BITNET writes:
> Another *very* important artistic influence was that of Mike Ploog
> who pretty much reinterpreted the Bode style in his own image and
> added many other touches that were soley of his imagination.
> Ploog's elves for example were later 'ripped-off' by Wendy Pini
> (her elves are virtually indentical).  Ploog was known for his
> stunning and disturbing artwork on Marvel's Man Thing, and some
> early work on Marvel's own Sword and Sorcery epic Weirdworld.

This is a knee-jerk reaction from an ElfQuest fan, so feel free to
ignore it.  I was first attracted to EQ because of the elves on the
cover; "Wow!" I thought, "They're just like the elves in _Wizards_!"
Much later, after reading the series, I looked at pictures of
_Wizards_ elves again.  They're very different (I think there was
even a picture of one of each side-by-side in the Gatherum) -- the
EQ elves are much more delicate, less like small humans with pointy
ears.  Though the new "Seige at Blue Mountain" makes them look a
little more like Ploog elves...

jed hartman
{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 13:47:11 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: A Good Movie

From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
> One movie I haven't heard anyone mention is 'Android' -- a low
> budget film with some beautiful performances, including Klaus
> Kinski as a mad scientist

Definitely an odd film.  It was made by New World Pictures as part
of their space opera mill that started with BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS
and GALAXY OF TERROR, and it reuses special effects from previous
New World Pictures, but it also has, at times, a fairly sensitive
script.  One of my sources tells me it was released by Island Alive,
now called Island Pictures.  They specialize in art house films like
KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN, MONA LISA, and A GREAT WALL.  The script
was by the actor in the title role, Don Opper.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 13:55:12 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Scanners

jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK writes:
> As Cronenberg films go, I prefer Trancers and Slither (a film
> that, unfortunately, has several different names -- not to be
> confused with Slither.  This is the one with the sexual parasite
> beastie.)

I think you may be confused.  TRANCERS (a.k.a. FUTURE COP) was
directed by Charles Band.

There was a Cronenberg film whose Canadian title was SHIVERS, and
whose American title was THEY CAME FROM WITHIN, and some places was
called THE PARASITE MURDERS, but not, as far as I can tell SLITHER.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87  01:55 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: spaceballs

At a Creation con in NYC this weekend I heard Terry Erdman do a
preview-presentation for a new movie coming this summer called
SPACEBALLS.  It is a Mel Brooks parody of the sf film genre (Star
Wars in particular.)  It looks like it could be pretty good....

Characters:

PRINCESS VESPA: remember the Jews in Space joke at the end of
History of the World part I?  Well, this is a Jewish American
princess in space.  She's a princess of the planet Druidia (sp?)
("funny, she doesn't *look* druish....")  she is being forced to
marry Prince Valiant, the last prince in the galaxy when she steals
the honeymoon coupe and runs away.  She has dark hair and wears
white.  Sound familiar?  While escaping, she is pursued by....

DARK HELMET: this one doesn't ring any bells of course.  Played by
Rick Moranis (Little Shop of Horrors).  Has a dark robe, a dark
helmet with a heavy-breathing attachment.  He is a master of the
dark side of the force which holds the universe together (more on
that later).  The princess is saved in the nick of time by....

LONE STAR: Han Solo with someone else's initials.  In his
interstellar winnebago, he roams the galaxy in search of his next
paycheck.  He rescues Vespa and they flee to a desert planet with
remarkably familiar scenery, accompanied of course by....

DOROTHY MATRIX: a human-sized and -shaped (sort of) golden droid.
Sort of a she-threepio.  Vespa's constant companion.  Called Dot
Matrix for short.  And of course we can't forget Lone Star's
sidekick....

BARF: a Mog.  That's half-man, half-dog.  (He's his own best
friend).  Played by John Candy.

COLONEL SANDURZ: random sidekick for the bad guys

MR. SCROOBE (sp?): the head bad guy.  trying to take over Druidia.

and last but not least...

YOGHURT: dispenser of good advice with fruit at the bottom.  heavily
involved with the force that controls all...The Schwartz.  a cross
between a certain starwars character and something out of Dark
Crystal.  Played by MB himself.

SPACEBALLS opens June 26th.   May the Schwartz be with you!!!

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 18:31:31 GMT
From: ee173sdu@sdcc18.ucsd.edu (Jethro Bodean)
Subject: Good little-known low-budget SF movie

   If this one was mentioned I didn't see it...

    WAVELENGTH: There may be movies be the same name (I heard of
confusion over this point once) but basically it's aliens are on
earth and good people help them escape. Made late 70's I believe.
    In many ways it's a precursor of STARMAN and actually gives the
human race some credit.  I would hesitate to say it's (SM) a remake
because it's a pretty average plot and there are differences, but
it's not a bad comparison...
    It's pretty standard but has it's good points.  It is low-budget
but some of my favorite SF is...  The 'low-budgetness' is not
obtrusive and is the endearing kind not the $2.99 special effect
kind...
    It's on video but ignore the lame picture on the front (if they
haven't improved it) of a drawn picture of some scary space alien in
a tank as opposed to the 12 year olds that actually appear as aliens
in the movie...  Pay special attention to the final scene and you
will burst out laughing if you've seen STARMAN. (FX rip-off time..)

Enjoy it if you can find it...

Tod Kuykendall

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 09:08:26 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Bakshi and LORD OF THE RINGS

From:   well!farren     (Mike Farren)
>> Despite the unethical copying involved in Wizards, I really wish
>> someone would fund Bakshi to *FINISH* the second half of The Lord
>> of the Rings.
>
> They can't.  In an obscure, convoluted, and insane deal, Bakshi
> only was able to get the rights to the first two books in the
> trilogy.  Rankin-Bass owns the rights to The Hobbit and The Return
> of the King, and has made films of both of them....

Not so. Bakshi had the rights to the entire trilogy, but the film he
made wasn't exactly a box-office smash and he couldn't get the
backing to do the second film.

Bakshi still had the rights to the last book when Rankin-Bass made
their version. R-B managed to get away with it by basing their film
on the first edition of LORD OF THE RINGS, which for very convoluted
reasons, is in Public Domain in the US (it's this edition from which
Ace reprinted *their* "unauthorized" edition of the Trilogy back in
the mid-60's (Tolkien revised the Trilogy specifically to be able to
secure a proper US copyright for the work).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 04:43:45 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: sf movies

There is one movie that hasn't been mentioned yet.  Now, I know that
many people won't consider this "real" science-fiction, but I
enjoyed it and I think it belongs.  The movie is "Electric Dreams"
and it's really a romance that uses a beserk PC as a catalyst.  For
those unfamiliar with the movie, it centers around a quiet,
introverted architect who buys a personal computer (and LOTS of
peripherals).  He eventually has his entire apartment wired into it.
One day, he hooks it up to another computer and starts dumping data
into it.  Well, the poor PC goes beserk and (gasp!) smoke and sparks
start coming out of the keyboard.  In his wisdom, he puts the fire
out with champagne (apparently, he didn't have the halon installed
yet...).  This, of course, causes some weird sort of matrix to
evolve on the computer boards and the PC suddenly acquires
artificial intelligence.  To complicate matters, an attractive
female cellist has moved in upstairs, and the architect and the PC
go into competition to gain her affections.  I know, it's not at all
realistic, but the music is great and it's a pleasant two hours.

As for BAD movies, I nominate the last half of DUNE including the
sacrilegious rain scene at the end.  The first half (up until Paul
and his mother flee into the desert) is tolerable and rather well
done.  But the last half ranks right up there with Plan 9...

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 87 9:07:47 EDT
From: the Shadow <jeffh@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of...

>  Has anyone noticed the severe paucity of good Fantasy film?

YES!!!  It is surprising given the glut of fantasy literature on the
market.

>  _Wizards_ was so-so, I've never seen _Fire and Ice_, and so forth
>  and so on...

Ditto, here, although it's been awhile since I saw WIZARDS; Perhaps
I should make the effort to see it again.  I do recall that it was a
rather good mood piece.

> How about good non-horror Fantasy film, especially High Fantasy?

Well, here's where I stick my foot firmly in my mouth.  I don't know
how anyone else on the net felt about these, but I enjoyed them very
much.  LADYHAWKE is one of the best fantasy films I have ever seen.
It combines a good backdrop with enjoyable characters and some nice
concepts.  It also had a strong element of romance, which seems to
be at the core of most of the best fantasies (King Arthur, Lord of
the Rings, The Inferno).  I found the movie refreshing because of
it's low dependence on special effects or gore.  There were several
times in the movie when I caught myself thinking, "Oh no, they're
going to ruin this movie with some stupid special effects," and then
they would work around it with some graceful cinematography.  I was
very impressed with the movie.

The other movie I would recommend is DRAGONSLAYER.  My mind is a
little fuzzy about this one, since I only saw it once, and that was
a while ago.  I disliked it when I first saw it, but the movie grew
on me in retrospect.  I really need to see it again before I give it
a high rating, but I can say that it is worth seeing.

Unfortunately, I seem to recall that neither of these movies did
particularly well at the box office, so it may be awhile before any
producers stick their necks out to try fantasy films again.

Another fantasy movie that would be worth seeing is EXCALIBUR.  I
personally did not like it, but that is because I have strong
aversion to Arthurian tales ("Gee, it's the same old story told in
yet-another-way.")  However, the movie itself was well done.

If anyone can think of any other fantasy (NOT swords and sorcery)
films, I would be interested in hearing about them.

enjoy,

Jeff Hanes
USnail: 1447 Harford Square
        Edgewood, MD  21040
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh
ARPA:   <jeffh@brl.arpa>
MILNET: <jeffh@vmb.brl.mil>

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 14:29:38 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: SF films

From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
>    There is one film I remember seeing that no one has mentioned.
> I vaguely remember it and I won't pass judgement on it (it was
> DIFFERENT) cause people like strange things (Neil Young was
> popular once). Anyway John Huston was in it and Glen Ford had a
> part in it too.

DIFFERENT?  It is nearly unwatchable.  The film is called THE
VISITOR.  Boring mystical horror.  It must be one of the worst films
with a cast of decent actors.

>  There was an interesting film with David Hemmings. It deals with
> an association of 20th century vampires.

Ah, now there you do have an intesesting, though not great film.
THIRST is an Australian vampire film that suggests, somewhat
tongue-in-cheek, that vampires would keep up with the times.  Not
great, but fun at times.

Why do you call them science fiction?

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 01:59:36 GMT
From: borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of...

From: <jeffh@BRL.ARPA>
>If anyone can think of any other fantasy (NOT swords and sorcery)
>films, I would be interested in hearing about them.

   Not sure why you're saying "not sword and sorcery", since most of
the films you mentioned fall roughly in that category.  Anyway, here
are some fantasy film recommendations of mine, somewhat categorized.

   Epic Fantasy (aka sword and sorcery, heroic fantasy, quest
stories, etc.): I know of no really great films in this genre, but
there are some fairly good ones. Two that you mentioned, LADYHAWKE
and DRAGONSLAYER, qualify as solid, entertaining films, well worth
seeing. Other good ones are the Ray Harryhausen films, JASON & THE
ARGONAUTS, and SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD; CONAN THE BARBARIAN (CONAN
THE DESTROYER was OK, but inferior; all the grittiness and darkness
of the Conan stories was missing); and Bakshi's THE LORD OF THE
RINGS.
   "Hollywood" fantasy - my own term for the one kind of fantasy
Hollywood seems fond of, best described by example rather than
description: IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE, MIRACLE ON 34TH STREET, THE
GHOST AND MRS. MUIR, and the 1943 HEAVEN CAN WAIT are all fine
examples. These movies were most popular in the 1940's, have
contemporary settings, top talent both before and behind the camera,
and a lot of warmth and humanity. There are too many of
'em to even list just the good ones.
   Others - never mind categories. Some other fine fantasy films
include THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES (1936), THE CIRCUS OF DR.
LAO (not great, but engaging), PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE,
GHOSTBUSTERS, and, best of 'em all, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, which
people sometimes forget is fantasy.
   I've left out mentioning any films that are even marginally SF,
since they've already been covered in the "Good SF Films"
discussion. I'm also leaving out horror films, as they are a
category of their own.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 May 87 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #226
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 87 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #226
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 226

Today's Topics:

                Books - Chandler (3 msgs) & Clarke &
                        E.E. Doc Smith (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 19:05:53 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Bertram Chandler

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>I don't know about everyone else on the net, but I'm a real fan of
>the novels by Bertram Chandler, with John Grimes (I think).
>Unfortunately, I don't have any of the novels and can't seem to
>find them in the stores.  The one title that comes to mind is "The
>Far Traveller". Anyhow, does anyone out there have a listing of the
>books he's written?  Does anyone know if the guy is still alive and
>writing?  (If he's not writing, I don't care :-).

Dave, I just recently picked up a complete(?) set of the Grimes
series in recent reprint.  There were, I believe, two issues out and
at least one of the two printed the stories two-to-a-book.  Check
your local well-stocked paperback store or SF-conscious used book
store.  I don't know whether he's still alive and kicking (or
writing), but as I said, the Grimes series has just been reprinted.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 15:20 EDT
From: Boebert@mit-multics.arpa
Subject: Raymond Chandler Fantasy

Raymond Chandler (a mystery writer of note) supposedly wrote a group
of fantasy stories near the end of his life.  Did these ever get
published anywhere?

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 20:52:00 GMT
From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval)
Subject: Re: Bertram Chandler

A. Bertram Chandler, once the skipper of an ore freighter plying the
route between the Australian mainland and Tasmania, died last year,
which is part of the reason that his books are in reprint suddenly.
Thus, we'll have no new stories either of the old Commodore Grimes
or of the Mannschein drive.

Dan C Duval
ISI Engineering
Tektronix, Inc.
tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 04:23:03 GMT
From: motown!bunker!wtm@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill McGarry)
Subject: Large print edition of "Childhood's End" needed

Recently, in the Handicap News news group, there was a request for a
large print edition of "Childhood's End" by Arthur Clarke.  Susan
Hammond suggested that I post the request in this group to try to
find a source.  Susan also mentioned that there used to be a college
group in Amherst working on large print books and that
"jmturn@ringwld" had been involved in this.

Is there anyone out there who can help me?

Thanks in advance,
Bill McGarry
{decvax, philabs}!bunker!wtm

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 21:19:49 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

Drat.  I kind of liked the Lensman series, but then, I'm your
stereo-typical 28-year-old adoloscent male neurotic.  Or something
like that.

Hmm.  Patronizing towards women?  Perhaps.  It seems that most women
were fluff--the only one who ever did anything real was Clarissa
McDougal.  Doc Smith seemed to think that women were different from
men--that they were better at some things and worse at others.
Unfortunately, the things that men were better at were more
exciting.

Doc Smith said that the real meat of the story was in _The Children
of the Lens_ (the last book)--that the others were more or less
prologue.

Heinlein said in one essay that there was more to the Lensman story
that has been printed--that Doc Smith's estate has an outline for
the story after _The Children of the Lens_.  Does anyone have more
info about this?

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 22:23:39 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>Doc Smith said that the real meat of the story was in _The Children
>of the Lens_ (the last book)--that the others were more or less
>prologue.
>
>Heinlein said in one essay that there was more to the Lensman story
>that has been printed--that Doc Smith's estate has an outline for
>the story after _The Children of the Lens_.  Does anyone have more
>info about this?

CHILDREN OF THE LENS is not the last book in the series; the last
book is called MASTERS OF THE VORTEX. I last read it many years ago,
but I remember not liking it nearly as much as the others (I admit
it, I liked the Lensman series (when I read it eight years ago)). If
memory serves me, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX takes place considerably
after the rest of the series, and deals with very different sorts of
issues.  Memory does not serve well enough for me to be any more
specific. But the book does exist and should be as easy to find as
any of the others in the series, I suppose.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 04:13:59 GMT
From: dayton!viper!ddb@RUTGERS.EDU (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
>Anyhow, I finally made a special trip to a very special bookstore
>in Carmel-by-the-Sea, and found book number TWO (The Grey Lensman??
>The First Lensman??) which I immediately bought and read.  Verdict:

Second book would be First Lensman

>IT WAS AWFUL!!  TRULY AWFUL!!!
>
>I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally
>poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally
>had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so many
>people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven alone knows
>why....

Assuming the book you read was in fact First Lensman (in which
Virgil Samms is first given the lens), I guess we may have to agree
to differ.  However, for the record, let me comment on the sexism
issue.  Consider when the book was written; while this is not a
valid defense of the book itself as read today, it may help place it
in historical perspective.  I believe that Smith was considerably in
advance of his time in his view of women, actually.  In First
Lensman there is a female character (Virgillia Samms) who does
important work for the good guys, takes physical risks to do it,
etc.  She does the work by virtue of her skills, not primarily her
appearance.  Now, some of the other women in the book (Clio Marsden)
stay home and etc. just like in the stereotypes, but what the book
says is that it's valid and appropriate for women to DO things (and
Vrigillia Samms wasn't an unhappy misfit or anything, though she was
an extremely special person).  This isn't the main point of the book
by any means, but it's clearly there.
  As to your complaints about characterization and plot, it takes
all kinds.  That is, I thought the characters were interesting and
the characterization adequate, and the plot very good.  These are
mostly plot books.  We probably just like different kinds of books.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!{meccts,dayton}!viper!ddb
UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!starfire!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 20:32:09 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert Plamondon)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

The first third of "The Skylark of Space" is excellent---fast-paced,
well-written, and very enjoyable.  It deteriorates as soon as they
leave Earth, and goes downhill more or less continuously after that.

Our culture has changed since the Doc Smith books were written, and
it's better to treat them like a Jules Verne book---picture the
action as occurring in the period in which the book was written, and
not in our future.  Alternate history, not future history.

It's more fun if you consistently visualize the Skylark books as
being set in the Roaring Twenties, with the thugs DuQuesne hires
wearing spats and toting tommy guns, leather upholstery in the
spaceships, control systems working by gears and cams,
cotton-insulated wires, horn speakers on the interstellar radios,
and "Let's Misbehave" playing on the Victrola.

The Lensmen books take place in a high-tech world---naugahyde
upholstery, gears and cams replaced by relays, electrical
phonographs, real speakers on the radios, which now have dozen of
tubes of much higher quality. (Cole Porter's still current, though).

These books are period pieces. If anyone every films them, I hope
they keep this in mind.

Robert Plamondon
UUCP: {pyramid,turtlevax,cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 87 15:54:05 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: The Lensman Series (spoiler!!!)

(1) I agree that the Lensman series is rather patronizing toward
women at times; but please try to remember that that was THE
attiture during the Fifties.

(2) I daresay you ran into the "sex-based incompatibility" and
bounced.  Please read the whole series!!! (a) Jill Samms jumped to
conclusions when she was blasting off about "pure killers"; (b)
(SPOILER!!!)

You must realize that the true reason that only one woman was ever
permitted to have a Lens was so that the Children of the Lens would
be "explained" by it.  In reality, the Arisians were conducting a
genetic program on humanity -- a fact they did NOT want humans, or
anyone else, to know.

(3) If you have an old copy, then you'll not find out most of this
until the last book of the series.  Newer copies have the history of
Eddore and Arisia spread all through them, and you therefore know
more about WHY things happen as they do in the series.  Many things
that seem totally bogus taken locally turn out to be VERY important
in the big picture.  (cf. #2 above)

Give it another try, and be tolerant.  'Tain't no such thing as
women's equality in books before the '70's.  (And, truth to tell,
little of it now.)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 14:55:41 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_atrh@RUTGERS.EDU (Thomas Richard
From: Holtz)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

robert@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>The Lensmen books take place in a high-tech world---naugahyde
>upholstery, gears and cams replaced by relays, electrical
>phonographs, real speakers on the radios, which now have dozen of
>tubes of much higher quality. (Cole Porter's still current,
>though).
>
>These books are period pieces. If anyone every films them, I hope
>they keep this in mind.

"If" anyone films them, you say?  Well, in the summer of 1984, in
Japan, a new major animated motion picture came out, using state of
the art computer graphics.  The title: "Lensman"

Yes, E.E. "Doc" Smith has made it to the Silver Screen.  But wait,
there's more!  In 1985 (I think), the T.V. Series "Lensman: Galactic
Patrol" was released on Japanese television, using the same
character design as the movie.

The plot of the movie is based (somewhat) on "Galactic Patrol".  The
series is in some ways closer to the books, but neither are that
literal a translation.  The main characters (Kim and Chris) look a
little to suspicsiously like Luke and Leia.  Van Buskirk has been
turned from a high-grav Dutchman to a huge humanoid with bison-like
features.  Worsel, the dragon lensman, the prototype for Spock and
MY favorite character in the series, is a bipedal humanoid in this
version, but still impressive.  The Boskone are ugly Bug-Eyed
Monsters, Mentor looks like Yoda, and Tregonsee has eyes (Mentor and
Tregonsee do not appear in the movie).  The lens is still the lens.

For literalists, the movie is probably painful.  I, however, enjoy
the spirit of the books, and that is definately found in the
Japanese versions.  A warning, though: as some of you may know, some
Japanese animated SF is superior to American as it does not always
cater to children.  The "Lensman: Galactic Patrol" series, however,
is written for Japanese children, so there are the requisite
cute-sified stuff found in children's stories eveywhere.

Tom Holtz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 10:26:16 EDT
From: the Shadow <jeffh@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  The Lensman Series

according to LT Sheri Smith ...
>  IT WAS AWFUL!!  TRULY AWFUL!!!
>
>  I found it trite, belittling, patronizing to women, and generally
>  poorly done in terms of character/story development. I literally
>  had to force myself to finish it, which I only did because so
>  many people have spoken so well of it over the years. Heaven
>  alone knows why....

I have a friend who professes to like the LENSMAN series very much,
while admitting that it is rather trite, repetitive, sexist, etc.
His claim is that it is necessary to read these while one is around
the ages of 12-15 in order really enjoy them.  At that age, one's
literary discrimination has not yet developed (mine certainly
hadn't) and the primary criterion for enjoyment is FUN.  He recalled
the books with fondness, but would not recommend them to anyone with
more mature tastes in fiction.

Perhaps you should hop into your Way-Back(tm) Machine and go
convince yourself to read them during your adolescent years.  Then
your other self could compare notes with your current self to see
how well the two of you like the books "now".

Someone recently made a similar claim with regard to reading THE
CHRONICLES OF NARNIA.  While I feel that these have a little more
literary merit than the LENSMAN books, I can understand that claim.
For the record, I read these when I was about 13 years old, and they
are still among my favorites in the fantasy field, ranking up there
with THE CHRONICLES OF PRYDAIN.

Can anyone think of other books that they enjoyed immensely when
they were younger, but might not like as well if they were to read
them now for the first time?  (Can anyone unravel that question?)

Cheers,

Jeff Hanes
USnail: 1447 Harford Square
        Edgewood, MD  21040
MILNET: <jeffh@vmb.brl.mil>
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh
ARPA:   <jeffh@brl.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 15:12:26 GMT
From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU (Lawrence
From: F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

Depending on how tightly one looks at these things, the first
lensman book may not be 'Triplanetary'.  Much of the background of
the series was laid in a book called 'Spacehounds of IPC'.  True, it
did not have the characters that were in Triplanetary, but much of
the feel is very, very similar.

As others have pointed out, the stories are now out of date by quite
a bit.  I find it amazing that life (and especially societies view
of women) has changed so much in just a few years!  Nevertheless,
the books are still very good and hark back to a time when SF was
still young.

In addition to the standard series: Triplanetary, First Lensman,
Grey Lensman, and Second Stage Lensman, there were two other books
published.  One was _Master of the Vortex_ (a sort of side-story)
and the other was _Children of the Lens_.  These were published (I
think) after 'Doc' Smiths death, and I've always wondered just how
much of them he wrote.  _Children of the Lens_ is close, but _Master
of the Vortex_ doesn't really 'feel' like his writing. Does anyone
know??

My father left me a set of first editions (mostly signed and
numbered) of the lensman books.  Anybody got any idea of what they
are worth?  (No, I'm not interested in selling, just wondering).

Lawrence F. Strickland
St. Petersburg Junior College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry
Phone: +1 813 341 4705

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 May 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #227
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #227
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 227

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 15:16:46 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: Beaming with your cloaking device plugged-in.

A few comments.

Beaming while cloaked:

   I agree that the Impulse engines would be able to support short
range transoprts while under cloak (Say just to outside the ship),
but from Golden gate park to ALAMEDA (sp--I dont live in the area)?

Getting the whales:

   As I remember, Kirk ordered the bird to uncloak (To freak the
whalers) and then ordered Scotty to get the Whales.

T. Kogoma
cs2633ba@izar.UUCP
cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU
{gatech:unm-la:ucbvax:hc!hi}!unmvax!izar!cs2633ba

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 01:27:25 GMT
From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Startrek Loose End

In reference to STIV:
>> who's going to rescue her?  He'll not only have to rescue her,
>> but also have to put the knowledge that Genesis can exist back
>> into the box (or defuse the knowledge, my preferred option).  And
>> not through time
>
> of that.  And putting the knowledge back into the box will take
> the ingenuity of crew and Dr. C.M. together. Might still be a
> story.

Remember that Genesis was a FAILURE -- I think even the Klingons
recognized that.  Consequently nobody would want it and there is no
need to put the knowledge "back in the box".  It is still possible
that someone may develop in into something successful, I guess.  But
as far as Federation military is concerned the secrecy of Genesis is
no longer of value.

Seems a rather cruel thing to say to Carol Marcus, doesn't it?

Personally I'd rather see something new in the next Star Trek movie.
Three in a row on the same series of events is too much.  Now that
Spock is back and Kirk is again in command of a starship, there is
no limit to what they could do or where they could go.  Carol
Marcus's story is probably best left to the ST novel writers -- I am
sure someone should be able to do a good job on a follow-up story
involving her.

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 12:22:01 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: STTNG - More stuff II

Two pieces of news (or information anyway).  David Gerrold is now
saying we should recognize FOUR of the names of the cast of STTNG
(Maybe they have names like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln,
I'd recognize those names :-))

The other I quote directly:

"All right, here's the first shoe:

 My contract with STAR TREK expires in two and a half weeks.  I have
asked GR and Paramount not to renew the contract.  Everything is
strictly amicable on both sides, and GR and Paramount have asked me
to consider staying involved with the show in some capacity.  I have
said I will consider it.

 At the present time, I am negotiating with another company and
network to write and produce a 4 hour SF mini-series, to be
developed from original material (That is, it's not based on any
published work).

 We are very close to making the deal and I expect to be able to
announce additional details within two weeks.  At that time I will
drop the other shoe.

 dg "

Retransmitted (well it wasn't really printed was it) from Compuserve
(can I say that on USENET, or is it one of the net's seven dirty
words?).

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 12:55:37 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles@RUTGERS.EDU (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: Genesis

ping@uthub.UUCP writes:
>Remember that Genesis was a FAILURE -- I think even the Klingons
>recognized that.  Consequently nobody would want it and there is no
>need to put the knowledge "back in the box".  It is still possible
>that someone may develop in into something successful, I guess.
>But as far as Federation military is concerned the secrecy of
>Genesis is no longer of value.

The Klingons recognized what?  Didn't I hear the Klingon commander
say:

  "The greatest weapon ever developed, and you call it a failure!"

Even though it destroys the planet, I'd say that a weapon that can
do that in a single shot is rather powerful, and likely to evoke
great interest.

[ It would be nice if it left a useable planetary ]
[ body behind, but you can't have everything! :-) ]

>Personally I'd rather see something new in the next Star Trek
>movie.  Three in a row on the same series of events is too much.
>Now that Spock is back and Kirk is again in command of a starship,
>there is no limit to what they could do or where they could go.
>Carol Marcus's story is probably best left to the ST novel writers
>-- I am sure someone should be able to do a good job on a follow-up
>story involving her.

A good idea.  I'd like to know where that Cetacen(sp?) Biologist
ended up.  She told Kirk that she'd be seeing him.  I wouldn't put
it past her to have wrangled an assignment to the new Enterprise!

Enjoy!

Edwin Wiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180
seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles

------------------------------

Date: Thu 7 May 87 13:51:45-EDT
From: Rob Freundlich
From: <S.R-Freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%WESLEYAN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: another ST loose end
Cc: wccs.e-simon%KLA.WESLYN@Wesleyan.Bitnet

Maybe this has been discussed before, and I missed it, but it's a
question that has been bothering me for some time:

In the first episode in which we see the Romulans ("Balance of
Terror"?), they are in a ship the Enterprise crew calls a "Bird of
Prey" because of its distinctive markings.

But in STIII (and STIV), the Klingons are flying a "Klingon Bird of
Prey."  Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start collaborating
on ship design?  Or is this just a "lets try to do it and hope the
fans don't notice" kind of thing?

Rob Freundlich
s.r-freundlich%kla.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet
freundlich%vax.weslyn@wesleyan.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 16:31:41 GMT
From: kaufman@ORION.ARPA (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: another ST loose end

S.R-FREUNDLICH@KLA.WESLYN writes:
>Maybe this has been discussed before, and I missed it, but it's a
>question that has been bothering me for some time:
>
>In the first episode in which we see the Romulans ("Balance of
>Terror"?), they are in a ship the Enterprise crew calls a "Bird of
>Prey" because of its distinctive markings.
>
>But in STIII (and STIV), the Klingons are flying a "Klingon Bird of
>Prey."  Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start
>collaborating on ship design?

Since 'The Enterprise Incident' (remember the Vulcan Death Grip?),
when the Romulans picked up a few (3? 4?) maybe a dozen we never
even saw), (apparently through Klingon Imperial advisor Olly K'North
;-).

>Or is this just a "lets try to do it and hope the fans don't
>notice" kind of thing?

It's probably more a lack of good names for ship classes.  The two
ships, aside from the cloaking device and a general birdlike
appearance, had little in common.

Bill Kaufman
lll-crg!ames-titan!ames!orion!kaufman
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.GOV

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 17:23:34 GMT
From: ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: another ST loose end

From: S.R-Freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%WESLEYAN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>In the first episode in which we see the Romulans ("Balance of
>Terror"?), they are in a ship the Enterprise crew calls a "Bird of
>Prey" because of its distinctive markings.
>
>But in STIII (and STIV), the Klingons are flying a "Klingon Bird of
>Prey."  Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start
>collaborating on ship design?  Or is this just a "lets try to do it
>and hope the fans don't notice" kind of thing?

The first time we find out that Klingons and Romulans are
collaborating on ship design is in "The Enterprise Incident" in
which the Enterprise enters Romulan space and is immediately
confronted by three Romulan ships built using what are obviously
Klingon D-7 hulls. At this point one of the crew, I think it was
Spock, theorized that the Romulans and Klingons must be sharing
technology. The reason for this, however, is that the special
effects people either couldn't find the Romulan model from BoT or
else shot the wrong ships and didn't realize it until it was too
late to reshoot.  Thus Klingons and Romulans are now sharing
technology which is why the Klingon Bird of Prey also carries a
cloaking device. In any case, we were never told the official
Romulan designation for the Bird of Prey and there is no reason that
the Klingon's couldn't give that designation to a new ship class.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 16:43 EST
From: <KGOODMAN%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Kaile Goodman)
Subject: Good SF Movies

T. Kogoma writes
>>FINALLY someone has mentioned an ST movie.  I thought ST II was a
>>great movie too, but ST I is by far the best -- it is in the real
>>Star Trek spirit.
>
>   I beg to differ.  ST-TMP may have had the best SCIENCE FICTION
>of all the ST movies, but as a cinematic production, it leaves MUCH
>to be desired.  The plotting is loose to non-existant(sp).  The
>special effects are ovedone (We can blame Star Wars for htis).  And
>it is the most BORING of the four.
>   I admit that the other movies aren't as thought provoking as
>ST-TMP, but the 'message' of ST-TMP gets lost in the yawns.

Well, I agree completely that ST-TMP was really boring.  I would
like to also add that I was very disappointed in the story.  Not
that the story wasn't good, but it was awfully close to a remake of
the TV episode "The Changeling".  (I hope I got that right.)

Kaile Goodman
KGoodman@Smith.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 02:30:18 GMT
From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: ST:TNG - responses to basic information

They fed the Asians and Africans to the Line-Eater's older siblings!

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says:
>Okay, about a week ago, I posted (with much help) a rundown on Star
>Trek: The Next Generation (STTNG).
>
>Since then I've seen several (even before then I saw some) which
>look at a four line character description and say "This is a stupid
>character, this series is going to stink, what a flop, it's just
>like <fill in name of least favorite sf tv series> and we ALL know
>how bad that is."

   Just today I figured out, based on information in the _Readers_
_Digest_Almanac_and_Yearbook_, that *over half* the population of
the Earth lives in the region of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China,
Japan, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, and the Philippines (sp?).  Many
more live in the Middle East and Africa.  And *none* of these
peoples were included in the list of regulars-to-be-cast, although
that list is as long as the complete list of all regulars on the
original ST.  Also, the original ST *did* include an Oriental and
and African, even though they were both minor characters.
   The number of people who are generally thought to have "sex
appeal" is even smaller than the number who live in Europe and
America.  And it isn't really necessary for everyone to have "sex
appeal" in order to be liked or respected.  So why is this a
prerequisite for practically all of the officers on the Enterprise?
This would make sense if the new series was to be soft-core porn,
but I had *hoped* that it would be mostly serious drama and/or
intelligent humor (and not funny only when the token black who "must
also be able to do comedy well" is onscreen).
   My previous criticisms of the casting still stand.

P.S. I almost forgot Data... Equal rights for androids! (Even if
they look like those Oriental "gooks." ;-)

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 12:31:48 GMT
From: MIQ%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Maloy)
Subject: Wesley in ST:TNG (was Galactica Ripoffs)

DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET says:
>about ripping off Galactica: 1980?
>
>I seem to recall that one of the characters in that thankfully
>short-lived series was a kid genius named Doctor Z or something.
>Not that there is any special resemblance to a certain acting
>ensign Wesley Crusher in a certain new series that is coming this
>fall, but you can't help wondering.... :)

   Actually, this character is one of my greatest fears about the
new series.  According to the info posted a month or so ago,
Wesley's supposed to be "a normal teenager" aside from the
photographic memory and such.  I'm praying nightly that he won't
become a victim of the overcute image that young teens usually have
on prime time TV.  Any writer who insists that Wesley have crushes
(pun intended) on various female crew members should be tied in a
chair and subjected to 48 hours of old "Leave it to Beaver"
episodes.

   With Roddenberry, Fontana and co. at the helm, they should be
able to move beyond this.  I still think that ST:TNG will stand on
its own as well as doing credit to the ideals of the original.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
UUCP  : {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 05:00:42 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: another ST loose end

From: S.R-Freundlich%KLA.WESLYN%WESLEYAN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> Since when did the Klingons and Romulans start collaborating on
> ship design?

In the second romulan episode (gads! I cant remember the title! It's
the one with the attractive romulan commander who tries to seduce
Spock) the romulans are using klingon ships.  Spock even makes some
comment to the effect that they are "using klingon designs".  I
could maybe believe that a small band of klingons could get ahold of
a used romulan ship.

Scott Schwartz
UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4}!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz
AT&T: (215)-328-8610

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87  01:53 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek

more news on ST:TNG (straight from David Gerrold on May 9th):

casting: not complete; some roles still remain.  when all are cast,
there will be one big group announcement.  cast so far are actors
familiar to those who have seen Roots, I Claudius, and
St.Elsewhere.....any guesses?

starts shooting: May 29th  (my birthday!!!)

first episode: written by DC Fontana and Gene Roddenberry.  includes
a scene between the first officer and the captain regarding why
captains should stay safely on the ship until the planet is declared
safe.

Gerrold's episode: "Blood and Fire".  Has an alien race which will
not be cute and marketable.  They make even the Klingons nervous....

Romulans: no decisions made yet.

new Bridge: actually smaller, but will shoot bigger.  Two
turbolifts, a lounge, and three (!) BATHROOMS.  Fewer consoles &
things.  Ship runs itself.

Premiere: Oct 3rd.  what idiot decided to run this show on Saturday
nights?

Episodes: 26, of which the final one will be two hours.

Families: yup.  "after a long day at work home to the wife and
kids", adults of whom will be crew members or scientists or
*something* - no one along just for the ride.

other news....

Harlan Ellison is writing a script for Max Headroom.

RUMOR: ST V may have only Shatner and Nimoy because the budget is
already some $30 million with only their salaries added on...rest of
the crew to do cameos.  This better not be true....

George Takei is filming a movie in the Philippines.

Convention: SHORE LEAVE July 10-12, Hunt Valley Inn, Hunt Valley MD.
Star Trek convention.  GOH Nichelle Nichols.  info: STAT, Box 6809,
Towson MD, 21204.

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 May 87 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #228
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 87 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #228
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 228

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Attanasio & Lee & Nourse &
                         Alternate World Stories (2 msgs) &
                         Book Banning (4 msgs) & Title Request &
                         1986 Nebula Awards & Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 17:31:24 GMT
From: seismo!sun!fluke!ssc-vax!cxsea!blm@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Matthews)
Subject: Re: Radix

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>dml@rabbit1.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>>I have read Radix and his other book (somthing like "Arc of the
>>Rainbow"???)  and enjoyed both of them thoroughly. I picked up
>>Radix when it first came out (in trade!!).
>EEEK! I'm glad you enjoyed _Radix_, but pleeeease take another look
>at it -- it is nothing anywhere even close to "hard" SF.

I'm glad people have enjoyed and are discussing _Radix_.  I happened
to find a copy in a B.Daltons one day, and because it sounded
interesting (and a little like Stuart Gordon's amazing book, _Smile
on the Void_), I bought it, even though I'd never heard of _Radix_
or Attanasio.  I'm sure glad I did.

I have to agree with Kevin that _Radix_ is more fantasy than hard
SF, but he outlined why pretty well, so I won't comment more.

Just for the record, I believe Attanasio has had 4 books published:

_Radix_
_In Other Worlds_
_Arc of the Dream_
_Beastmarks_

The first three have been out in paperback for quite a while.  The
last one I've only seen in hardback, but that was a number of months
ago, so it should be out in paperback soon.

I would recommend _In Other Worlds_ and _Arc of the Dream_, but they
come nowhere close to _Radix_. They're good, but not phenomenal.

Brian L. Matthews
{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm
+1 206 251 6811
Computer X Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 14:31:52 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Tanith Lee title request

lance@LOGICON.ARPA writes:
> "Sabella, or the Bloodstone":1, "Kill the Dead":2
>  Combined as "Sometimes after Sunset" by SFBC, although the books
> are not directly related.  "Sabella" is a future vampire novel on
> new Red Mars.  "Kill the Dead" is about a traveling bard ready to
> kill any ghosts that may be bothering you.

Tanith Lee also authored two 'Blakes 7' episodes & after writing the
second and working with the cast asked Paul Darrow and Michael
Keating if she could 'use' them in 'Kill The Dead.'  They agreed.  I
have not been able to get a copy of the book *anywhere* (anyone want
to sell?) -- but I believe that the 'traveling bard' is based on a
combination of Paul Darrow/Avon -- isn't his name something like
Parl Do?  and there's a Michael Keating/Vila character in it as
well.

Jean Airey
US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 08:13 PDT
From: LAYOUT LUNATIC <"12338::MIKE%sc.intel.com"@relay.cs.net>
Subject: BOOK REQUEST

Ted Nolan (ted@braggvax.arpa) writes:
>Does anybody know the name of a Nourse book about two brothers,
>initially estranged, who end up somehow in the asteroid belt,
>running around in the air corridors of some kind of enemy ship?  (I
>think there is some sort of alien mcguffin that they are supposed
>to have or to have stolen that sets everything off).  I'd like to
>find this one again.

and Leonard Erickson happens to mention in the same digest...
>Another Alan E. Nourse book that was recently reissued in paperback
>is "Scavengers in Space". Unfortunately all I can say without
>giving away major plot points is that it involves the sons of an
>asteriod miner vs one of the big mining companies. This doesn't do
>justice to it. It has a *lot* of plot twists.

Guess what!  This is the book that your looking for, Ted!  This was
was one of my favorite juvenile sf books.  I still have a beat up
hardcover around in a box someplace.  Good plot, good story.

mike may
MIKE@FOLSM2.INTEL.COM
Intel Corp.

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 17:47:18 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Alternate World stories

   I am looking for contributions to a list of alternate world
stories I am compiling. I used to have one, but I accidentally
removed it from my files sometime ago and only recently discocered
it missing. The types of stories I am interested in are parallel
worlds similar to Earth in physical aspects (one moon, yellow star,
same continents). I will post the list once it is complete. If you
would like to contribute, just e-mail the titles and authors to me.
Thanks.

Ken Crist
kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu
seismo!cvl!kayuucee

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 87 17:04:29 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Alternative Histories

A good start to any bibliography of alternative histories is

   B C Hacker & G B Chamberlain
   Pasts that Might Have Been

It is published in

   C Waugh & M H Greenberg
   Alternative Histories

which also contains a dozen or so examples of the genre.

Sorry, no ISBN.  Can you BELIEVE the library catalogue doesn't give
the ISBN?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 12:18:55 CDT
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: Book Ban

The school superintendent of Bay County, Florida, Leonard Hall,
recently banned Ray Bradbury's _Fahrenheit 451_ from classroom use
in public schools.  The action was instigated by Charles Collins,
one of our leading local ignorami.

Other books have been banned as well, including _The Red Badge of
Courage_, _Never Cry Wolf_, and _Oedipus Rex_.  The controversy
first exploded when Hall banned _Never Cry Wolf_ because it
contained the exclamation "FORCHRISTSAKESTOPITGODAMMIT!"  This
occurs only once in the story.  Several more books were put into
various "catagories" (i.e., censored) since then.

Hall has refused to comment on the matter of _Fahrenheit 451_, so
one can only speculate that he banned it because it's about book
banning.  The book might make him look bad in the eyes of his sheep,
er, students.

Just thought you might like to know.

Marco Barbarisi
Panama City Beach, FL
marco@ncsc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 87 13:47:00 CDT
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: More on Book Ban

In reference to my previous posting on book bans in the local school
district, I've compiled a list of some of the 64 books banned from
classroom use by the superintendent.  I've included works that I
feel would be of some interest to sf-lovers subscribers (even if
only in a tangential sense).  The banned books were submitted for
use by teachers in various classes (English, history, biology,...).
I can never remember author's names, so I'm leaving all author's
names out of the list.  The criteria for which a book is banned is
highly subjective and is based on the superintendent's judgement
alone.  He hasn't read most of the books in question.  Any book with
the word "goddamn" in it or "a lot of vulgar language" is banned.
Here are some of those books:

_Lost Horizon_
_Oedipus Rex_
_Watership Down_
_Animal Farm_
_Best Short Stories_
_The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin_
_Fahrenheit 451_
_The Glass Menagerie_
_Lord of the Flies_
_The Canterbury Tales_
_Brave New World_
_The Inferno (Ciardi translation)_    (Maybe Dante should have used
   'heck')
_Ghosts_
_Oedipus the King_

Marco Barbarisi
Panaman City Beach, FL
marco@ncsc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 08:49:13 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

  "books banned include..."
> _Watership Down_

Say what? Just what is wrong with this book? As I recall, it was
made into a 'G' rated movie. So how could it POSSIBLY get
banned?!?!?

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 03:25:05 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

I really don't know what to say. _Oedipus Rex_, _Lost Horizon_,
_Lord of the Flies_,....?

"Let's ban them, they are obscene...".

One minor question: are several other works considered for banning
by these openminded Nazis? Maybe, I don't know, the Constitution,
the Bible (I DON'T want to get into theology, etc.- just, is this
obscene too?), ALL of Shakespeare's plays, anything political, or
with social connotations?

Dante?....

I don't know about you folks, but this kinda worries me JUST a tad
bit.

I assume we're talkin' high school here,(unless grade school has
changed a LOT 8-). Does your esteemed superintendant assume that the
students do not know the words, or concepts? ("Don't mention sex,
and they'll NEVER know, so we won't have problems...").

In our high school, these books were commonplace, and even blase',
to some extent.  I suppose _Don Quixote de La Mancha_, _The
Hunchback of Notre Dam_, Herman Melville, etc. are also included
(crude, vulgar; crude, disgusting, filthy; racist, crude, vulgar-
respectively)

I just hope this kind of thing dies FAST, and doesn't spread.
("Truly, milord, I fear 'tis far too late...")

Eric C.

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 15:45:29 GMT
From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard)
Subject: Post holocaust book search

My sister is looking for a book she read several years ago.  It's
post holocaust and people have lost technical knowledge.  There is
one person, who is really an android, who keeps things working.
(This is where things get fuzzy) The android may or may not know
he's an android. If he knows he's an android then it may be the
person who falls in love with him doesn't know, at first, that he's
an android. Finally, there are a lot of groups of three people who
practice self immolation.

Ring any bells?

Thanks from my sister in advance,

Lauri Howard
howard@pioneer.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 02:54:32 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Nebula Awards, 1986

Here are the winners of the 1986 Nebula Awards, which were announced
on May 2 and reported in the latest *Comics Buyer's Guide*:

Best novel: "Speaker for the Dead", Orson Scott Card
Best novella: "R&R", Lucius Shephard (IASFM)
Best novelette: "The Girl who Fell into the Sky", Kate Wilhelm (IASFM)
Best short story:  "Tangents", Greg Bear (OMNI)
Grand Master:  Isaac Asimov

Lucius Shepard's story will probably be reprinted in his forthcoming
Arkham House collection.  Greg Bear's story will appear in
"Mathenauts", an anthology of stories related to mathematics edited
by Rudy Rucker.

I think Card's winning of the Nebula two years in a row, and for a
novel and its sequel, is a first.  Do any of the sf historians out
there know for sure?

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 14:05:25 MDT
From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
Subject: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS

Well, I received my long-backordered copy of CODEX SERAPHINIANUS
from Publishers Central Bureau yesterday.  Now, I know that at least
one other person out there has a copy of this -- it was a reference
to this book on SF-Lovers that caused me to notice it when it showed
up in one of the PCB catalogs -- and I have some queries that I hope
someone out there can answer about this.

(For the uninitiated, this book is a rather strange art work. It is
a several-hundred-page large-format book, entirely hand drawn in the
original (that is, no printed text, but all pages are drawn), mixing
colored illustrations with pages of text and captions, entirely in
an imaginary language, describing a completely alien world (except
that the inhabitants appear to be human in form). An extremely
surreal exercise, the book is a sort of encyclopedia describing this
world and its cultures.)

Author: Luigi Serafini Copyright 1983 Abbeville Press [I think --
I'm doing this from memory...]

Now, my queries:

1) I understand that the alien language in which this book is
written is actually a completely-worked-out real language; that is,
the mysterious squiggles are not just random marks, but could be
translated to real text.  Does anyone know if this is really another
language, or just a consistent transliteration of some ordinary
language, and, if so, what that language is?  (I suspect it would be
French; there is one drawing of a manlike creature with a pen as its
arm creating a page of text which is French in script -- I suspect
that this is a self-portrait of the artist, doing in the book's
society what he was doing in reality [that word gets a bit variable
in this context! :-)]; creating an alien culture. So I wonder if the
text might be really French in a simple substitution cipher -- this
funny squiggle means "a", that one means "b", and so on -- as
opposed to being an actual different language.)

2) In any case, is a translation into English avilable anywhere? I
realize that the book can be viewed as a wonderful puzzle, and
figuring out the meaning(s) is a lot of fun, but I neither have the
time nor am I up to the effort required. I'd like to cheat and buy a
crib sheet...

3) My copy came with the inclusion of an oddly-cut fragment of
photograph, perhaps cut from a calendar, with the number "031"
written on the back, stuck between the pages. Is this actually the
copy number, put in by the artist, indicating that this is copy 31
of <some number>? Or is it just a scrap of paper with no meaning?
(Or is it a message from an alien power so subtle and mysterious I
cannot interpret it?....  :-)

[If it is the real copy number, that certainly is odd. Why would
such a low number as "031" be remaindered? I don't know what this
cost when new, but its weird enough to have sold at least several
hundred copies no matter how much it was, just to the esoteric artsy
types...]

4) Can anyone point me to any reviews or commentaries or other
sources of information or discussions about this book or the artist?

Thanks much!

Will Martin
wmartin@almsa-1.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 10:41:07 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS

WMARTIN@SIMTEL20.ARPA writes:
>1) I understand that the alien language in which this book is
>written is actually a completely-worked-out real language; that is,
>the mysterious squiggles are not just random marks, but could be
>translated to real text.  Does anyone know if this is really
>another language, or just a consistent transliteration of some
>ordinary language, and, if so, what that language is?

A friend has done considerable research on the book, and has found
that is is definitely NOT a simple transposition cipher on any known
language.  No matter what he tried he could not get the letter
ratios, specifically the "vowel"/ "consonant" ratios to come out
consistently and correctly.  Also, he managed to decipher the page
numbering scheme, and reports that it is in a very odd prime-number
variable base scheme (first level has seven symbols, second level
13, third 23, or something like that.)

>2) In any case, is a translation into English avilable anywhere?

Not that any of us have ever found (I have about five friends who
LOVE the book, including myself)

>4) Can anyone point me to any reviews or commentaries or other
>sources of information or discussions about this book or the
>artist?

Douglas Hofstadtler (who wrote Godel, Escher, Bach - a book I also
highly recommend) talked about the Codex in one of his Scientific
American columns "Metamagical Themas".  That's how I was turned on
to it.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 13 May 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #229
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 May 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #229
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 229

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anderson & Cabell (3 msgs) & Cherryh &
                   Lewis (4 msgs) & Martin & Tolkien & Yarbro

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 15:30:08 GMT
From: rruxqq!thumper!mike@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Caplinger)
Subject: Poul Anderson, "Sargasso of Lost Starships"

Has anyone ever seen this anywhere except in the original, I think
it was GALAXY, magazine printing?  As far as I can tell, it's the
only Polesotechnic League/Terran Empire story that hasn't been
collected somewhere or another.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.com
{decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 00:10 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Re: Cabell

jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>  While in the topic of fantasy a few years ago somebody (Del Rey)
>repackaged a set of books by James Branch Cabell(??). They were
>written in the 1920(s) and thoroughly delightful.The man had a way
>with words and an incredibly dry sense of humor. I loved them so
>much I lent them away and now I wish I had them back.
>
>  If anyone knows where to get them please tell me. If you haven't
>read them check them out.

They show up in used bookstores fairly regularly, often in
interesting editons.  You just have to keep looking!

Ordinary nth printings of the Kalki editon (small brown hardcovers,
gilt lettering) should go for from $1 to 5.  First Kalkis go for $15
to $20.  Dust jacketed Kalkis are rare, add $5 (I've only seen two,
I bought both of them just for the novelty).

The large illustrated editons are marvelous, most are illustrated by
Frank C. Pape.  Depending on the bookstore, they could go for
anywhere from $5 to $40, depending on whether the bookstore knows
what it has.

For the book collector, Cabell presents many complex bibliographic
problems, and I won't go into them further here.  EMail me for more
info ... (see .signature at end).

then ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE) writes:
>I'm glad that people out there have read Cabell.  Unfortunately,
>one of the man's problems is that almost all of his books are
>written in the same style.  Since he's got scores of volumes in his
>rudely interconnected fantasy series, it's tough to get through so
>much of a sameness.

One would gather that therefore an Asimov or Clarke has more variety
in his style.  I would beg to differ.  A careful reading of the
Storisende editon reveals great evolution in Cabell's style.  The
cultured, correct, cynical prose remains constant throughout.

>   However, his writing is delightful, at least for a few books.
>I'd recommend you read "Jurgen", a delightful send up of censorship
>that was nearly barred from the us in 1922 when first published
>(long before Miller's Tropic of Cancer(or was it Capricorn?)).
>Wonderful obscenity trial that.  Then there's "Figures of Earth"
>where the man does irreparable damage to the story of the life of
>Christ.  Then there's "The Silver Stallion", where Arthurian
>romance takes it on the chin.  With luck, you will be able to find
>at least "Jurgen" in the SF paperback section (also try pop or
>general lit paperbacks) in a big used bookstore.  If it has used
>copies of books by E.R. Eddison, it should be big enough to have
>"Jurgen" with a high degree of possibility.

Come now.  Check out the hardback sections of good used bookstores
(not just sf specialists) for the original hardcover editions.

>  For reading purposes, adequate libraries should have some of
>Cabell's books.  However, the only library I know with a copy of
>"Hamlet Had An Uncle..." is the Library of Congress.  Some of
>Cabell's work is very hard to find.

You just have to work at it ...

>   Perhaps, for this day and age, the important thing about
>Cabell's work is that it presents to us a non-Tolkienian model of
>purest fantasy.  I'd swear Robert Asprin had read some Cabell
>before he began working on the Myth Series.

I agree whole-heartedly with this.  Cabell serves to remind us that
fantasy can be written in non-tolkienesque modes.  He isn't
everyone's cup of tea (although I love his writing dearly).

Richard Welty
CSNet:     welty@crd.ge.COM
Internet:  welty@ge-crd.ARPA
Usenet:    {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 08:50:39 PDT
From: cel@CitHex.Caltech.Edu (Chuck Lane)
Subject: Re: Cabell and Jurgen

If you want to read Cabell at his best, I'd recommend _Jurgen_ very
highly....full of veiled references that are a true test of the
twistedness of the reader's mind ;-) .  There was a Dover edition a
few years back, trade pbk, with illustrations from the original
plates.  REALLY nice.  Larry Niven put a bunch of Cabell references
in a couple of his stories....and caused me a major case of deja vu
until I figured out what he was doing.

Chuck Lane
cel@cithex.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 14:06:23 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #211

> However, the only library I know with a copy of "Hamlet Had An
> Uncle..." is the Library of Congress.

It's not that bad; I found a copy or three without any particular
effort.  In fact, all the college libraries I checked had
respectable collections of Cabell.  Two of them were in Virginia --
one library was called the Cabell Library -- so it's a biased
sample.  But the best collection of the three was in St. Louis.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 09:17:47 EDT
From: Dave Allen <davea@ll-vlsi.arpa>
Subject: CJ Cherryh

Someone recently mentioned a CJ Cherryh novelette _Scapegoat_.  Does
anybody know what book/collection this was published in, or where I
could find it?
     A second question.  A chronology of her Alliance/Union novels
was apparently posted here a few weeks ago.  Was this the same one
as appeared in _Angel with the Sword_, or _Serpent's Reach_?  If
not, was it more extensive?  I didn't see the posting.

Dave Allen
davea@LL-VLSI.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 13:12:58 GMT
From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory

obrien@aero2.aero.org writes:
>... the Narnian Chronicles ... are some of the best fantasy ever
>written, and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except
>for the last volume. ...  True, the other volumes are also
>allegorical, but they stand on their own.  This one doesn't.

With this I agree.  I read the series before I knew anything about
Christianity.  I thought all were good stories, except the last,
which seemed to have events happen at random and characters respond
in ways that were entirely nonsensical.  I simply did not understand
it.  Now, in retrospect, I do; but without an explanation, the story
makes no sense, so be sure you have one handy.

Chris Torek
Univ of MD
Comp Sci Dept
+1 301 454 7690
chris@mimsy.umd.edu
seismo!mimsy!chris

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 20:06:20 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: C.S.Lewis

gouvea@huma1.UUCP (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
>marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
>>On the subject of comparisons with Tolkien, I should point out
>>that Lewis, Tolkien, and Charles Williams (another wonderful
>>author) were...
>
>>A challenging trivia task: try to find the similarities among the
>>works of the three authors.
>
>Besides the fact that they shared a rather unique brand of orthodox
>Christianity?

I was under the impression that Tolkien was Roman Catholic and Lewis
Anglican.  As for Williams, I can't imagine that he was an adherent
to any form of Christian orthodoxy.

>...Not very easy to do.  Lewis was the unifying factor in the
>group.  Tolkien himself did not seem to like Williams all that
>much.  They were all deeply involved with literature, especially
>medieval literature.  But I see little similarity among their
>books, though Williams is clearly the main influence on "That
>Hideous Strength".  Tolkien, for example, deeply disliked the
>Narnian books.

   I agree with the statement that Lewis was the nexus.  I don't see
any sign that Williams influenced Tolkien or vice versa.  What is
clear is that Lewis was highly receptive to literary influences.
The example of "That Hideous Strength" is good, but I see a Tolkien
influence there as well as the (predominant) Williams.  The
reference to "Numinor [sic]" suggests that Tolkien's work was on
Lewis' mind.  The Logres of THS bears some distant kinship to
Tolkien's Atlantis.
   I think Tolkien also exerted some influence on Narnia, whether he
liked the finished work or not.  The formula in which rather
ordinary mortals are dragged into a world higher and deeper and
richer than they had ever imagined, in which they are called upon to
fight the battles of Faerie, is the trademark of Tolkien's work
(both in essays and in fiction.)  Lewis takes it over, combines it
with elements of Nesbit (as a perceptive poster remarked), and
produces an immediate sensation.  No wonder Tolkien (who regretted
the children's-story elements of the Hobbit) disliked it.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 23:15:08 GMT
From: randolph%cognito@Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz
From: <randolph%cognito@sun.com>)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory

Lewis's Narnia books & his space fantasies *Out of the Silent
Planet* and *Perelandra* are among my favorite fantasies also.  Yet
my favorite Lewis book is *Till We Have Faces*, a re-telling of the
Psyche myth as a historical fantasy set in ancient Greece with a
major theme of spiritual enlightenment.

pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes:
>There's a right age at which to read the Chronicles. Too early (say
>< 9 yrs) and you'll miss the richness of Lewis's writing. Too late
>(say > 15 yrs) and you'll get annoyed at the E. Nesbit style and
>pick holes in the Narnian universe.

I read them later (from ages 9-15 I was ashamed to admit a taste for
"children's books") & did not have a problem with style.  As for
failures of consistency . . . I know about them but enjoy the books
anyway.

>I'd be interested to hear of anyone's idea of how Lewis might have
>developed Narnia if he had been as obsessive about it as Tolkien
>was about Middle Earth.

Repeated revisions gave the *Silmarillion* & *Lord of the Rings* an
incredible density of concepts, so much so that you can discuss *The
Silmarillion* chapter by chapter and *Lord of the Rings* in two or
three chapter units and have a fair amount to say in each
discussion.  If Lewis had endlessly re-written the Narnia books, the
way Tolkien re-wrote the Middle Earth books I rather suspect the
result would be intensely descriptive prose, like Jack Vance or
Samuel Delaney (what a strange comparision!).  The books would also,
I guess, become quite mystical with the strange concrete mysticism
of *Till We Have Faces*.

Many people have described these books as allegorical.  Better, I
think, to call them Christian fantasies.  Strictly speaking,
allegory involves the substitution of book characters and places for
abstractions like virtue, liberty, charity, and so on -- something
Lewis does not do in these fantasies.

Randolph Fritz
sun!randolph
randolph@sun.com

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 23:16:49 GMT
From: Dan_E_Miller@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re:C.S.Lewis

   On the CS Lewis/Tolkein discussion - if you're interested, you
might look into Lewis' autobiography "Surprised by Joy".  He talks
some (although not much) about Tolkein in there, and you can get a
flavor for the relationship between the two.

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 87 15:53:39 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (the Clown)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes)

andy@cbmvax (Andy Finkel) writes:
>The most annoying thing about book 1 was that it makes the
>assumption that the addition of 'wild card' powers would not make a
>bit of difference to world history...it still comes out the same.

I don't understand.  Why does this matter in the least?

Furthermore, I am completely confused by the very existence of this
complaint.  The book announces that it plans to follow the superhero
comic genre, and then indeed it follows the superhero comic genre.
For this you get annoyed????  I don't get it...somebody explain it
to me!

Notice that I'm befuddled on two distinct levels.  First, just what
is wrong, as a hook to hang a book on, with the question, "What if
the world were just like ours, only different somehow?"?  And
second, if you only like certain kinds of genres, why are
criticizing it for not being the kind of genre that you like?  I
generally don't like romances, for example, but I don't criticize
them for not being spy thrillers.

>And, somewhere, they've found a source of real evil people.  Unlike
>most people in the 'real' world, they've actually got people who
>know they're evil, enjoy being evil, etc.  No self-justification,
>no differ- ing viewpoints, etc.

Again, this is routine comic book genre stuff.  Sometimes it's
overdone, but sometimes it's just perfect.  I wouldn't want it any
other way.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 87 10:49:28 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Tolkien: Silmarillion versus LOTR
To: jml@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)

Joseph McLean says:
> Does anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally
> depreciates the 'reality' of the later ages?

I most certainly do not!

> Does anyone know why Tolkein introduced them in the first place?
> Was it simply to write a story for his children?

Well, _The_Hobbit_ was written to be a children's tale.

> I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot high plump hairy
> 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness and tragedy of the
> gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early orcs etc unless you
> are a child.

You have missed one of the most fundamental points of
_The_Lord_of_the_ Rings_!  Three of the smallest and most
insignificant creatures in all of middle earth, the hobbits (well,
two hobbits and Smeagol), become the most important beings in the
war---the ones that literally turn the tide.  ONLY a hobbit could
have snuck in to Mordor without attracting Sauron's attention.  None
of the "grand" beings could have done it.  And even in the end, the
hobbits were not strong enough to overcome the overwhelming Evil of
the Ring---it was destroyed by accident.  And if the Ring had not
been destroyed, then surely the "grand" Gandalf and Aragorn and all
their armies would have been overcome, and Middle Earth would have
fallen in to very dark ages.

You may even see Christian overtones in that, I suppose: "the last
shall become first".  But it was one of the most foundational
points, if not THE point, of the entire story.  And the point would
not have come across if the hobbits were not the "plump, hairy, cute
and cuddly gnomes" that they were.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87  02:53 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Yarbro

For fans of Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's St-Germain series: she has
contracted to write a new trilogy of vampire novels about

**MINOR SPOILER**
St-Germain's lover from BLOOD GAMES - Olivia.
**END OF SPOILER**

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVMX.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 May 87 0800-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #230
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 87 0800-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #230
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 230

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 12:01:35 GMT
From: diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Re: Prof. De la Paz contradictions

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
> dant@tekla.tek.com.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
>> As I remember, the Prof claims to be a Rational Anarchist or
>> something of the sort.
>I agree with Dan's point, except that the term "rational anarchist"
>was a descriptive term rather than the name of an organization or
>whatnot, and thus should not be (and was not, in the book)
>capitalized.
>
>To repeat the point.  The Prof never outlined in detail his
>political philosophy, beyond tagging himself a rational anarchist.
>What he meant by this is unclear,

I've always assumed that it meant that he was an anarchist, but
wasn't going to be fanatical about it. Pragmatic in other words.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 16:13:22 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

>krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
>> k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold)
>>> Mark Stevans
>>>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case
>>>(cases?)  for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms.
>>>Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion...
>>But not homophobia?  Oh, sorry, this must be a law of nature.
> He took that on in Time Enough For Love.

Actually, he "took that on" in "Stranger" as well.  In fact, the
comment "But not homophobia?" is somewhat mind-boggling as applied
to "Stranger", because one of the major scenes in the book was when
whos-iz-face claims to have become physically ill when confronted
with having sex with Mike.  (Granted, group sex, and involving a
woman, but definitely sex with Mike was a factor.)  Far from
ignoring the issue, Jubal tell whos-iz-face that he's a fool, and
tells him that if he had an ounce of sense, he'd go back and
apologize.

In fact, I believe there are *several* scenes where it is implied
that Mike and his "family" engage in both homosexual and hetersexual
activity.

"But not homophobia?" indeed!  Hmpf!

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 03:43:29 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
>in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
>will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate
>Heinlein".  I will never again read anything he has written.
>
>I know I am not alone.  There are other Heinlein haters.  I
>personally know one or two of them. If you have ever angrily
>discarded a copy of an RAH book, then come out of the closet!
>
>I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably
>couldn't do it justice.  Can someone more literate than myself
>explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a
>supremely offensive tale?

Sure. I won't take a thousand words. It's really rather simple.

One central theme of SIASL is that our `sacred values' aren't. It
demonstrates how our society is virtually riddled with taboos and
superstitions. Just about every `sacred institution' of the U.S. of
A. gets a good look and is found wanting, and special scrutiny is
reserved for organized religion. But all that is not enough; instead
of championing the `little man' against all these rotten
organizations, Heinlein has the gall to demonstrate that most people
don't just collaborate in their being deceived and exploited, they
actually WANT to be led around by their mental nose-rings and resist
any attempt to open their eyes to what is going on around them.

Now you show me a person who wouldn't be offended by all this.
Unless, of course, his or her eyes are already halfway open...

A few remarks on your question, Mark. No, do read it, I'm not going
to flame you (much). I don't think that judging an author from a
single book is fair.  You may be touchy on the particular subject.
You may have had a bad day when reading it (and then re-reading it
just confirms your pre-formed opinion).  I think that if a book has
*offended* you, you should give the author a second chance,
especially if he gets good criticism from others.

Strange though it may sound to you, hate is not the worst thing that
you can feel about a book. I think that *boredom* and *inertia* are
a much harder verdict on a book (and an author). That is not to say
that any offensive book is automatically good, but that at least it
has *successfully interacted* with you. If you want to go through
the world in a rational way, you should try to find out why you feel
so offended. Usually, some deep-buried unquestioned belief of yours
has been dragged into the open and (in your eyes) ridiculed. Maybe
you should ask yourself WHAT belief that is, and WHY you feel so
offended - perhaps you feel insecure about it?

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 03:50:12 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

Here is another rather long Heinlein article. The offer is still
open: if you don't want to read this, hit your favorite key...

Kev, this is a response to your answers to my original remarks on
your `essay'. Well, something like that. Let's see if we can clarify
our positions a bit.

>   it seemed to me that you really agreed with about half of
>"Mark"'s essay without realizing it! Here's why: You accuse Mark of
>insisting that the book's society is an anarchy, but you go on to
>show that it is *really* a very rigid society. Well, maybe I
>misread Mark's essay, but I was under the impression that that was
>the point (one of them) that he was trying to make: that no matter
>how *much* the characters claimed that they lived in an anarchy,
>the fact is that they *don't.* Even if that's not what Mark said,
>it is what *I* say, so we agree on this point.

Of course I don't disagree with everything in Marks' paper. In fact,
in some places he manages to catch the right idea (such as the
`social natural selection' that he correctly sees in the lunar
society). Still, I disagree with major points. The paper starts out
to say "Lunar society is not ruled in a civilized manner - it is an
anarchy." Mark comes across as very convinced that Luna is an
*anarchic* society, and in fact most of the evils and barbarisms
that he deplores are specifically attributed to *lack of (legal,
governmental) restraints*. That doesn't sound like what you think
you read.

I didn't say Luna was a *very rigid* society. It has rules and
limits where the `dirtside' culture does not, and is free where
Earth culture imposes restrictions. I guess it is a matter of
opinion which one should be called `more rigid' than the other. In
any case, in my opinion the `loonie' culture is one with quite
complex and far-reaching strictures, and definitely not `anarchic'.
So obviously we (I and Mark) disagree on a basic premise of his
`essay'. From what you said just now, *we* do agree (that loonie
culture is *not* an anarchy).

>The part where you and Mark disagree is in whether or not the Lunar
>society is barbaric or not. Mark says it is; you say it's just the
>expected product of environment/living conditions that exist on the
>Moon. *I* say that the both uv yuz correct (almost)! I think that
>the Moon's society *is* the product of the crowded/tense/etc living
>conditions, and that it is *also*, at the same time *very
>barbaric*.  Just because it arose naturally from the necessities in
>this case does not exempt it from being barbaric. It's just that in
>this case, a barbaric society has arisen to fit the necessities of
>life -- and this is not something new in history. It's the way
>other barbaric societies have evolved throughout history.

Ah, here we come to the core of our disagreement, as well as my main
disagreement with Mark.

I think you should be careful with the word `barbaric'. In the
word's root (Germanic `barbarians' in Roman Empire eyes), it just
describes someone who doesn't share your views on what is
`civilized'. Calling another culture `barbaric' merely expresses
that you consider it *uncivilized* and that you (probably) abhor
some of their social practices - it does not specify any particular
properties as the words `democratic' or `feudal' would.

It is quite obvious that the `loonies' are barbarians in the eyes of
`dirtsiders', and vice versa. Who is to judge, and can there be an
objective judgment in any case? If two societies develop from
different environments and thus emerge with different moralities,
must we call one `barbaric'?  Obviously, you share the `dirtsider'
view on what is moral and what is not.  Your privilege, of course,
and even quite rational - after all, you live in a comparable
environment. I am quite ready to concede that groundside, the loonie
culture would be barbaric, and I guess Heinlein knows it, too.  I
contend, however, that under the Lunar environment, the typical
groundside culture would be equally `barbaric'. The philosophic
question that this boils down to is, I think, whether it is right to
have a culture that adapts as best as possible to your environment;
or whether there is some global, absolute `good morality' that has
to be followed no matter what you are in, even if it means
starvation or death for your people. A major point of Heinlein's
writing (as well as of my own views) is the conviction that
*culture* is a relative thing, mutable and rather fickle at times,
and that no one has the (moral) right to impose his own convictions
on someone else, especially if (s)he has good (survival) reasons for
being different.

I think, Kev, that you simply misunderstand why I disagree
(strongly) with Mark's `essay'. He makes quite an effort to
demonstrate that *by earth standards*, the `loonie' culture is
barbaric. I do not dispute that at all.  What I dispute is that this
fact automatically makes it *inferior* to the `dirtside' culture in
any objective sense. What I really find offensive in this `essay' is
the combination of condescension and ignorance that Mark displays,
judging a culture from *his* personal point of view and never
doubting a second that *his* way is the *only right* way to see
things. (That he is also guilty of lopsided argumentation, faulty
arguments and misleading quotations is another issue.)

From what you write, I get the impression that to a certain degree
you share Mark's conviction. Do you really think that any culture
that violates the established rules of western civilization is
automatically inferior? I would call that a rather short-sighted
position. If, on the other hand, you object to particular aspects of
loonie culture for objective reasons (other than that *it isn't like
what you're used to*), we should discuss these point for point. Just
chanting `barbarism' doesn't make a good argument.

>Another little point -- Mannie *does* continually complain that
>Terra is sooo "barbaric" compared to Luna. Honest, he does! He even
>specifically uses the word "barbaric" more than once. This is maybe
>the point Mark was so intent on driving home: that the Moon's
>society is really more barbaric than the Earth's (I agree that it
>is), no matter *how* many times Mannie says that it is really the
>*Moon* that is the less barbaric.

As said above, from the loonie's point of view, Earth culture IS
barbaric.  Besides, never forget that the book is a first-person
report of a highly involved individual - just because in Mannie's
eyes the `dirtside' culture comes across as a crazy jumble of
nonsense, that doesn't mean Heinlein believes so, too. (It is, of
course, a good opportunity to dig in some sharp remarks on the way
we live...) Heinlein's point is NOT that either Luna or Earth have
the *better* or *higher* culture; it is rather that members of both
have great troubles dealing fairly with the other one. A rather
natural human weakness, would you not agree?

>I don't think that you really disagree with Mark as much as you
>think you do.  I read Mark's essay, then I read your reply, and I
>kept thinking, "But TC, you *agree* with him and just don't realize
>it! You and Mark only differ over a few points of semantics! What
>friends you could be if only you'd realize you are on the same
>side!"

I see some rather worthwhile ideas realized in loonie society, ideas
that are directly or indirectly Heinlein's. (See my original article
on Mark's `essay'.) Mark does not even TRY to evaluate its features
(such as the death penalty for social offenses) in their context. If
it doesn't sound right in Standardtown, USA, it can't be civilized,
yeah?! But even if I would reject the fundamental tenets of Luna, I
would still concede (without prejudice) that loonie culture is
working and though I object to its ideas I have no objective proof
of its inferiority (or the superiority of mine). Can you really
image Mark accepting such a position?

I guess the next step is up to you. If you want to take Mark's
position, there isn't much left to talk about. I can't discuss the
rationals of the Bible with a christian if he insists that it is
`right no matter what'. If, on the other hand, you want to argue
rationally about the good and bad spots of Heinlein's Luna, we can
continue this discussion. Might be interesting...

>This is not meant to anger you. I'm not trying to get you to scream
>back, "NO NEVER NEVER I WOULD NEVER AGREE WITH MARK NEVER YOU ARE
>ACCUSING ME FALSELY ETC ETC ETC!!!" This is what I see. Maybe this
>problem can be reconciled.

It is said that an idea or philosophy is not responsible for the
people who claim to adhere to it. In the same vain, I disclaim any
responsibility for people who happen to agree with me on some
points. Even if the agreement is just imaginary...

>BTW -- I really enjoyed reading your posting. It was one of the few
>that came across as calmly objective, instead of frothing that Mark
>had pissed on your favorite author.

Thank you. I just happen to believe that rational argument is a good
base for getting your opinion across - if it's a rational one.
Yelling at people just makes them cover their ears. Though I can get
a bit cynical at times...

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 1987, 15:12:04 EDT
From: Brent Hailpern <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: flame on!  (Heinlein discussion)

Zigetty <PEU1347%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk> states:
>...How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic
>piece of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent
>(and typical work) is beyond my comprehension.

I can't believe that someone finally said something that could draw
me into this debate on Heinlein!  But here goes...

I enjoyed Starship Troopers - not because I want to live in such a
environment or because I want to go to boot camp, but because it
stretched the imagination in a couple of reasonable "what if"
directions.  (1) How does a society react in a life-or-death battle
with an "inscruitable" enemy (in retrospect it is interesting to
compare this story with Ender's Game), (2) What are the
ramifications of a society where citizenship depends on
public/military service (a proposal expressed by some of our current
presidential candidates), (3) What goes through a person's mind when
he/she goes from an individual to a member of a military team?

I can't imagine so hating the notion of military life that you can't
look beyond the world he set up and enjoy the ideas he is playing
with or even just the adventure story.  But I guess that is what
makes horse races...

Brent Hailpern
bth@ibm.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 May 87 0821-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #231
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 87 0821-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #231
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 231

Today's Topics:

                  Films - Phantom of the Paradise &
                          2001 (3 msgs) & Bad Movies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 20:35:27 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of...

barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>OF DR. LAO (not great, but engaging), PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE,

I'm glad to see that someone else appreciates this film, which I
think is one of the best movies I've ever seen.  It is also one of
the most difficult films to find; apparently the studio that
released it didn't make much of an effort to distribute it widely,
so it wasn't seen by many people when it first came out (1974) and
no one was interested in rereleasing it or in television rights.  It
has been shown on cable TV stations (TBS at least) and I believe it's
out on videocassette, but since I don't have cable TV or a VCR, that
doesn't do me any good.

It was written and directed by Brian DePalma (one of his first
films) and stars (among others) William Finney (I think) and Paul
Williams who wrote the music & lyrics to all the film's songs.
(Don't let this put you off; Paul Williams is good in this!)  This
film is a rock & roll version of the Phantom of the Opera with
elements of the Faust legend thrown in.

William H. Ansley
csnet:  ansley@buffalo.csnet
uucp:   ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley
bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc
usmail: Computer Science Dept.
        226 Bell Hall
        SUNYAB, Buffalo, NY  14260

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 17:11:54 GMT
From: ames!styx!auspyr!mick@RUTGERS.EDU (Mick Andrew)
Subject: Re: 2001: slow down, you move too fast

obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU says:
> I've seen the movie two or three dozen times at least over the
> years,

Me too. However, I cannot go a day further without airing these
comments (Kubrick flames?).

It is very interesting to read to read the books
  The making of 2001    (general discussion of the filming etc.)
  Lost worlds of 2001   (Arthur C. Clarke's retrospective)

The latter has an alternative storyline which I likes much more in
terms of sf style, but which was obviously(?) unfilmable.

The former looks at things much more from Stanley Kubrick's
viewpoint, and probably explains why he did some of the things he
did with Clarke's plot.  (How did Clarke let him get away with
it???)($$!)

When the movie first came out, many people were totally confused by
it.  "Read the book" was the re-assuring response from those of us
who had.  However, I maintain that the confusion was *totally*
deliberate and intentional on Kubrick's part.  The 2001 novel makes
it very clear what is going on.  With a few simple changes Kubrick
could have made the movie just as clear also.  To be specific

1) The ape (Moonwatcher) finds the monolith, and then starts banging
    bones together.  The movie could make it clear that the monolith
    has some kind of of mind control at this point by cutting more
    often between the monolith and the ape, maybe a close up of his
    eyes...

2) Probably the most important sequence in the whole movie is when
    the monolith on the moon emits its signal to Jupiter (or
    Saturn!).  The whole point here is that the monolith was buried
    with a big magnetic marker (mentioned in passing in the
    dialogue; a simple extra sentence making this clear would not
    have gone amiss).  It was supposted to be found.  So, when the
    monolith first sees the light of day, it shrieks.  The movie did
    not make it clear that the sun was rising over the exposed
    monolith for the *first* time.  We simply had Kubrick's famous
    shot of the sun atop the slab (how did it get so high so fast).
    All one of the scientist's needed to say as they descended into
    the pit was "Just think. It hasn't seen the light of day for x
    million years" Hey presto; movie goers get the drift.

3) The star gate.  This section was truly awful.  We see a monolith
    drifting in space, then suddenly get treated to an LSD trip.  In
    the book, Bowman says, "My God, its full of stars", and enters.
    Explicitly.

I maintain that with some "Cinematography 101" changes the movie
would be a lot more comprehensible.

Unfortunately, as I said at the beginning, Kubrick admits to being
into metaphysical aspects of the film (which Clarke is explicitly
not).  In the "Making" book, Kubrick talks about letters he received
about the movie, and mentions one in particular from some woman
which goes on at great length about her interpretation of the movie,
what this and that *really meant*.  Kubrick was really impressed by
this one.  (I thought it was a load of codswallop).

I guess my problem is that I would prefer the film to be straight
sci-fi, and not get sidetracked on making the audience think about
the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

Feel free to agree, disagree and flame at will

Mick
{sdencore,necntc,cbosgd,amdahl,ptsfa,dana}!aussjo!mick
{styx,imagen,dlb,gould,sci,altnet}!auspyr!mick

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 22:30:18 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!neighorn@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven C.
From: Neighorn)
Subject: Re: Good SF Movies

perry@inteloa.intel.com writes:
><some stuff about Star Wars and 2001>
>One thing: 2001 gives a MUCH more realistic impression about space
>travel than, say, Star Wars. Interplanetary space is LOTS of
>(largely) empty space between the interesting spots. Interplanetary
>travel is *long* and *lonely*.  In fact, being on such a voyage,
>BOREDOM is certainly one of the main problems. I think that 2001 is
>a real success for giving a realistic impression of an
>interplanetary voyage. Actually, so far it's the best one I have
>ever seen (no, experienced!). I believe that this creates the magic
>of 2001, the reason why many people (including me) go and see it
>again and again... because there's no plot to be spoiled; the mood
>comes again, even better than before.
>
>Of course, tie-fighters making U-turns on the spot and dodging
>asteroids and enemy fire are much more exciting. Nothing against
>Star Wars (I enjoyed it, too, as an archetypical fantasy saga). It
>just appeals to rather different instincts in us, and if you go
>into a cinema expecting the wrong thing, you're virtually certain
>to be disappointed. Try to see 2001 again in a LARGE cinema, and
>try to *give yourself up* to the (physical and mental) images that
>Kubrick creates. Don't *think*, *feel*. Maybe you'll like it.

I agree. It is also important to remember the vast differences in
the level of technology between Star Wars and 2001. Star Wars takes
place 'A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away'. This gets them off
the hook for taking liberties with our physics. I mean who can say
for sure what Hyper Space is, and what the performance
characteristics of a Twin Ion Engine fighter will be? Given the Star
Wars universe, its rules and regulations, I was able to accept
anything the movie presented me. I loved the close-order combat
scenes (they used World War II fighter-plane film footage as a basis
for the scenes like the MF's escape from the Death Star), as
implausible as it is for ships traveling at such speeds to respond
they way they did.  The makers of the film set up the rules, and as
the viewer wanting to have an enjoyable movie-going experience, I
followed the rules.

Then we have 2001. Same Galaxy as ours. Almost same time. We have
Russians, Commercial airlines, friendly flight attendants, and
recognizable locales on the earth and moon. I mean this movie is
positively 20th century (plus 1/365th). We must accept a few
technological advances - full scale moon bases, orbital space
stations, VVVLSI computers, Ion driven ships capable of fractional
light speeds (good fractions too), and long distance phone calls
that only cost a couple dollars.

It doesn't take *that* big of a stretch of the imagination to
believe in the technology of 2001. I felt the pacing of the film was
perfect. There was no need to rush through scenes that the audience
would better enjoy if given the time to absorb all of what was
transpiring. How many films spend two minutes watching a flight
attendant walk down the aisle? Yet in 2001 they did, and it was
fascinating.

Star Wars filled a niche. 2001 filled a niche. I have seen Star Wars
~30 times, and 2001 half that. When people ask me which I like
better, I tell them apples and oranges, or more correctly, monoliths
and light sabres.

Steven C. Neighorn
Portland Public Schools
(503) 249-2000 ext 337
tektronix!{psu-cs,reed}!qiclab!neighorn

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 06:29:58 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: 2001: slow down, you move too fast

Note--while I've seen the movie quite often, I've read the book only
once, a long time ago, and I've not read much of the behind the
scenes stuff.

mick@auspyr (Mick Andrew) writes:
>When the movie first came out, many people were totally confused by
>it.

Who cares?  My mom and I weren't.

These people were totally confused because they were looking for the
wrong things in the film.

>"Read the book" was the re-assuring response from those of us who
>had.

I eventually did read the book, after already seeing the film
several times.  It didn't add anything to my understanding of the
film--indeed I disliked how it undercut the film.

>However, I maintain that the confusion was *totally* deliberate and
>intentional on Kubrick's part.

I say bravo for Kubrick then!  I find it sickening when filmmakers
make sure their production is "marketable".

>The 2001 novel makes it very clear what is going on.

Yes.  And compared to the movie, I found it dull and unchallenging.

>With a few simple changes Kubrick could have made the movie just as
>clear also.

And by doing so, he would have ended up stepping all over the mood
that he was in fact trying to present.

>1) The ape (Moonwatcher) finds the monolith, and then starts
>    banging bones together.  The movie could make it clear that the
>    monolith has some kind of of mind control at this point by
>    cutting more often between the monolith and the ape, maybe a
>    close up of his eyes...

I thought it was exceedingly obvious that the monolith changed
things for the apes.  Big black monolith, dawn, apes get all
excited, etc?  Why does the film need *more* cuts back and forth
between the ape and the monolith?  I thought that showing any was a
bit excessive.

And whether it's via "mind control" or some other technique is
irrelevant.  Who cares?  (Answer: all the people who were totally
confused.)

>2) Probably the most important sequence in the whole movie is when
>    the monolith on the moon emits its signal to Jupiter (or
>    Saturn!).

I wouldn't say it's the most important sequence, although it's
probably the most significant plotwise.  But 2001 is much more than
its plot.

>    The whole point here is that the monolith was buried with a big
>    magnetic marker (mentioned in passing in the dialogue; a simple
>    extra sentence making this clear would not have gone amiss).

Huh?  What's the point of two sentences, when one will do?  Kubrick
was interested in the scientists' digesting the significance of
their discovery.  And he isn't responsible for whether you were
observant or were busy chewing your popcorn too loudly at the time.

>    It was supposted to be found.  So, when the monolith first sees
>    the light of day, it shrieks.  The movie did not make it clear
>    that the sun was rising over the exposed monolith for the
>    *first* time.

Intelligent minds figured this out eventually.

>    We simply had Kubrick's famous shot of the sun atop the slab
>    (how did it get so high so fast).

Who cares "how did it get so high so fast"?  You're trying to kill
the movie with irrelevant techno-details.  Begone, ye base varlet.

>    All one of the scientist needed to say as they descended into
>    the pit was "Just think. It hasn't seen the light of day for x
>    million years" Hey presto; movie goers get the drift.

Hey, yet another minor techno-detail.  I don't care if movie goers
get the drift--I put it together without too much difficulty.  And
if you only find out when someone tells you later--so what?  The
plot is the least important part of the film.

>3) The star gate.  This section was truly awful.  We see a monolith
>    drifting in space, then suddenly get treated to an LSD trip.

No.  We see the monolith, and then space starts to open up, first on
the one side, and then the other, as the Varese(?) "Atmospheres"
theme, with its insanely beautiful gibberish, explodes on us.

I would not know how the sequence that follows compares to an LSD
trip, having never experienced the latter.  Even if it does, so
what?  Are you saying that hyperspace should be portrayed as in Star
{Trek,Wars}, and that other portrayals are "inaccurate"?  We're
getting Bowman's view of what had never been experienced by human
senses before--why should they fit in some standard picture?
Somehow the common mixed with the weird, caused by brain signals
getting scrambled, seems as close as film could get to genuine
synasthesia, say.  I took the slow renormalization of the images as
some sort of cosmic color control adjustments--but making this any
more specific is both pointless, unnecessary and stupid.

>    In the book, Bowman says, "My God, it's full of stars", and
>    enters.  Explicitly.

I agree that the Bowman line in the book is superb.  Indeed, I found
that it was the only thing that made the book worth reading.

"Explicitly?"  I don't get the point of this.  Do you mean that you
were so confused by the film that you didn't notice anything
happening at this point??  I don't think so, but I can't find any
other interpretation of the above.

>I maintain that with some "Cinematography 101" changes the movie
>would be a lot more comprehensible.

And incredibly less effective/interesting.  Thank the stars that
Kubrick took "Cinematography 401"!  Seriously, when was the last
time you could compare a film with 2001?

>Unfortunately, as I said at the beginning, Kubrick admits to being
>into metaphysical aspects of the film (which Clarke is explicitly
>not).

Unfortunate for *you*.

>In the "Making" book, Kubrick talks about letters he received about
>the movie, and mentions one in particular from some woman which
>goes on at great length about her interpretation of the movie, what
>this and that *really meant*.  Kubrick was really impressed by this
>one.  (I thought it was a load of codswallop).

So what?  I'm sure it really *was* a load of codswallop.  So this
woman never took a course in critical analysis, never learned how to
identify themes, never became an intellectual, never went to
Radcliffe....  There are worse fates.  (Like becoming an
intellectual, etc, and still end up writing loads of codswallop.
It's been known to happen.)

My own interpretations of the film are probably much less
embarrassing, but then I've had lots of practice at this sort of
game.

>I guess my problem is that I would prefer the film to be straight
>sci-fi, and not get sidetracked on making the audience think about
>the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

At least you're honest.

If you would prefer the film to be "straight sci-fi", and it wasn't,
it's sort of silly to then belabor the fact that it isn't.  Enjoy
the film for what it is, not what you prefer it to be.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 14:54:07 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Bad movies

Speaking of bad movies...was anyone else unlucky enough to see "The
Star Crystal" (or maybe it was "Space" Crystal - so bad I've blanked
part of my memory of it)?  This was such a turkey that the people
who stayed all the way to the end (not many) were harassing the guy
taking tickets at the door "you should be ashamed to show that movie
in your theater!" - leaving the poor guy all flustered, wondering
what was wrong.

Then there are the Miles O'Keefe "spaghetti sword & sorcery"
movies...sheesh!

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #232
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #232
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 232

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Herbert & Rosenberg &
                           Smith (4 msgs) & Zelazny (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 09:20:58 EDT
To: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: What is Hard SF?
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa

Dave,
    "Dragon of the Deep" may be an alternate title, but the version
I have is "Under Pressure".  I agree with you-- Herbert seems to
have his stuff together on this one.  It is probably my favorite
submarine story, with the possible exception of "Blow Negative!"
(author forgotten, story hilarious).

Regards,
Dave Wegener
20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 15:21:28 EDT
From: martinte@wpafb-fdl.arpa
Subject: Rosenberg's "Guardian of the Flame" series

This is my first time writing to the net, so please be patient. I
have been reading Rosenberg's series, and I find it to be quite
entertaining. Since I haven't seen any messages on these books, I
thought that I would solicit opinions from the sf gallery(** be
kind, I'm new **).

Does anyone know just how many books are planned for this series?
Answers will be greatly appreciated(** anything to get off of
Heinlein **).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 14:26:08 pdt
From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
Subject: Lensman stuff

To excuse a book being sexist, wooden, and generally unbelieveable
because it`s forty or fifty years old is a bit silly, seems to me --
especially the `wooden` part -- was it impossible to write good
fiction before the turn of the century?  I thought Dickens had
rather a way with words, myself.  As far as sexism goes, there were
quite a few people writing on women`s rights during the 1800`s --
including Harriet Taylor and John Stuart Mill, and Mary
Wollstonecraft Shelley.  There are examples from earlier periods, of
course, but the point is, there isn`t any magic date before which we
can excuse either bad writing or general bigotedness just because it
was "before it was an issue".

Of course, there is always a certain attachment to the first books
we read, or the first Science Fiction or Fantasy book we read, et
cetera, as I find myself attached to, say, Howard`s Conan books or
_The_Wind_ in_the_Willows_, but that`s sort of a different issue.

(By the way, I didn`t mean to imply that _Wind in the Willows_ was
wooden, sexist, or anything else -- it was just an example ...)

Splitting Hares,

Arthur
ARPA: rthr@ucscb.ucsc.edu           (school)
UUCP: ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!rthr
      decvax!microsoft!sco!arthure  (work)

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 00:23:55 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

hjg@bunker.UUCP (Harry J. Gross):
>    Actually, I thoroughly enjoyed the series.  It was written a
> long time ago, and perceptions were different back then.  One must
> take that into account when reading it, or you will probably be
> offended.  (Unless, of course, you are a male chauvenist p*g :-)
> As to the science, it is truly off base.  Of course, when it was
> written, the idea of an all pervasive stuff refered to as 'ether'
> was quite popular, and Michalson-Morley had not yet disproved it.
> Hence, much of the pseudo-science is _way_ off base.

I agree that some of the science is off.  The "ether" was disproved,
however, in 1882 (says the Brittanica; I thought it was 1902) and
GALACTIC PATROL is copyright 1937 (this is certain, I looked it up;
I guess the earlier books weren't serialized, they're copyright 1948
and 1950, respectively).  The impression I got from the Lensman
books was that the "ether" was a useful abstraction unrelated to
reality; I have heard more recently that some physicists use a
(mathematical, not real) "ether" in their theories, which seems
consistent with the above.

The worst scientific points are: (1) neutralization of inertia
yielding FTL travel; I doubt it, and (2) they still use punched
cards.  C'mon, even without transistors (see above; the early books
came about 10 years too soon) you'd think he'd have come up with
something better!  (Also (3): engineers still use slide rules aka
slipsticks; Smith had no feel for the future of computers.)

>I expect to be severly flamed by all who _hate_ Doc Smith, but I
>anticipate that there are a significant number of supporters, too
>:-)

One here.

Rereading GALACTIC PATROL (going through them in order),

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU
+01 216 255 1080

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 12:41:06 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Lensmen series

"David A. Kyle, friend and confident of 'Doc' Smith, has been
authorized by the Smith Estate to continue the astonishing
adventures of this intergalactic brotherhood, as they search and
destroy the evil remnants of Eddora"

I've read "The Dragon Lensman" and "Lensman from Rigel".  The style
is very close, the environment extremely close, but the sociological
environment is more recent.  The time period of the books I've seen
is concurrent with the "Children of the Lens" period, although the
central character is the non-human in the title.

James W. Meritt
John Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory
seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 05:19:51 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Lensman stuff

From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
>To excuse a book being sexist, wooden, and generally unbelieveable
>because it`s forty or fifty years old is a bit silly, seems to me
>-- especially the `wooden` part -- was it impossible to write good
>fiction before the turn of the century?
> [...]  there isn`t any magic date before which we can excuse
>either bad writing or general bigotedness just because it was
>"before it was an issue".

Well, yes and no. Certainly there was good writing around before the
New Wave. Certainly there was feminist writing around before the
sixties. But when reading older works it's still important to
remember the context and society they are embedded in.

When the Lensman book were written the standards of the genre were
very different. Nowadays the market would not stand for such wooden
writing; then it would. Shall we castigate 'Doc' Smith for not
rising above his time in that way? If we like, I suppose.

A more touchy issue is the sexism of his works (and by extension,
racism in pre-civil rights works, and so on). And here I think it is
important to bear in mind the society that the work came out of. In
the 1930s the idea of a truly non-sexist society had hardly occurred
to most people. The possibility was simply not a part of most
people's conception of the world. Feminism then meant something
different from what it means to us now (well, to me, anyway; I won't
presume to speak for everyone). Some books seen as feminist then
would not seem so now (Edward Bellamy's LOOKING BACKWARD talked a
bit about the liberation of women, mostly in reference to 21st
century dress styles...)

To write a truly non-sexist book, a book in which gender makes
little difference, requires that the possibility have occurred to
the writer, in detail. When the idea of a non-sexist world first
took root in popular American culture, it was a big change, a
dramatically new idea. (Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not
saying that most people *want* such a society. I'm simply saying
that people have generally been exposed to the idea of such a
society, and I don't think that was true in the thirties. But then
again, I'm 22 and would be happy to hear from anyone with actual
experience of the decades in question.)

I don't think it's fair to criticize Smith, or any writer, for not
having a vision as far beyond his society as Smith's would have had
to be to avoid being seen as sexist fifty years later. Of course,
writers with that kind of vision are often the best writers,
directly because of their vision. But no one has been claiming that
Smith was any more than an enjoyable (or not) hack, who churned out
goshwow space opera by the dozens of pages. (At least, I'm not. I
enjoy his works, but not in anything like the sense I enjoy LeGuin
or Delany. I mean, good grief.)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 87 01:04:12 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (was: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes))

rick@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Rick Keir) writes:
>eric@hippo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) writes:
>>      BTW, despite being a Zelazny fan, I found the two Zelazny
>>stories to be some of his worst writing...
>
>       Oh, hardly!  Zelazny can be much worse than this: try an
>tell me what "RoadMarks" was about, for example.  Z's stories here
>are not his best, but they certainly are better than many of the
>plotless things he's turned out lately.  (By the way, I liked
>Roadmarks, and in fact everything of his I've read: its just that
>some stories leave me feeling like I'm reading the equivalent of
>Book of Kells illumination being used to illuminate a shopping
>list.  His Wild Cards stories, on the other hand, are not classics,
>but are readable and memorable.

One of the most puzzling sub-plots in _Roadmarks_ to me was the one
where the very tall, thin guy who was always dressed all in one
color and always planning some piece of villianry was captured and
carried off by a big guy with a great tan and golden eyes.  (Please
excuse me if I don't have all the details right; it's been quite a
while since I've read the book.)  I really felt like I must have
missed a chapter somewhere.

I would have shrugged it off as just another unsolved mystery except
that not long after _Raodmarks_ I read _Doc Savage: His Apocolyptic
Life_ by Philp Jose Farmer.  This book (a 'biography' of Doc Savage
- Man of Bronze, in which Farmer's premise is that Doc Savage (and
Tarzan and Phineas Fogg and Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty and I can't
remember who else) were (and in some cases are) real people and all
related in some incredibly complex fashion AND all mutants caused by
prenatal exposure to the same radioactive meteorite) provides plenty
of evidence that the big guy with a tan in _Roadmarks_ is Doc Savage
and the tall, thin guy is Johnny Sunlight (I think), his
arch-nemesis.

Of course I've never read any Doc Savage adventures or I assume this
all would have been obvious to me immediately.  Apparently Zelazny
decided to have a little fun with his readers while paying homage to
a science fiction character (I assume) he has a great deal of
affection for.

In _The Changing Land_, Zelazny also has a lot of inside jokes with
which he pays homage to at least two fantasy authors: Manly Wade
Wellman's _The House on the Borderland_ (I have a horrible feeling I
may have the author wrong here) and Howard Phillips Lovecraft's (and
others, particularly Frank Belknap Long's) Cthulhu Mythos.  I
mention Long specifically because his short story, "The Hounds of
Tindalos" is almost directly referred to; there are creatures in
Zelazny's book called the hounds of Thandalos (again please pardon
any errors - I am referring to rather old memories here).

These types of games authors play fascinate me.  I have a feeling I
missed a lot of other references.  I would be very interested to
hear any other speculations or educated guesses regarding these
books, either by e-mail or news.

William H. Ansley
csnet:  ansley@buffalo.csnet
uucp:   ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley
bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc
usmail: Computer Science Dept.
        226 Bell Hall
        SUNYAB, Buffalo, NY  14260

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 87 16:34:58 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (was: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes))

ansley@sunybcs.UUCP (William Ansley) writes:
>rick@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Rick Keir) writes:
>>      Oh, hardly!  Zelazny can be much worse than this: try an
>>tell me what "RoadMarks" was about, for example.  Z's stories here
>>are not
>[stuff deleted]
> Of course I've never read any Doc Savage adventures or I assume
> this all would have been obvious to me immediately.  Apparently
> Zelazny decided to have a little fun with his readers while paying
> homage to a science fiction character (I assume) he has a great
> deal of affection for.

I though Roadmarks was great, very absorbing; you had to wait until
the very end to understand the various plot entanglements, and this
kept me interested much more than those books where you can look at
the last page and say "Yeah, that's what I figured would happen from
reading the cover blurb."

Although my only "Doc Savage" exposure was a single comic about 10
years ago, I knew him right off. There were lots of other familiar
details - the incredible Hulk (I think), the "master of Kung-fu",
the 6-million-dollar man/Wolverine, the alien death machine (who I
just realized now is probably Mickey Finn from Callahan's cross-time
saloon, which I only read yesterday), the "what-if" vignette of
Hitler...and so entertainingly done that you don't really need to
understand the references to enjoy the book. I would highly
recommend it!

John

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 87 22:17:00 GMT
From: sysmsh%ulkyvx.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: re: why is Merlin so dumb - amber spoilers!

someone.  Typically the 'someone' is getting the whole story.

Has anyone given any thought to the idea that Merlin may be telling
the story to someone who Merlin may not want to totally confide in?

Or....when Merlin was eating at the Pit with "Bill Roth" (wearing
silver striped pants and a silver shirt with black cloak i.e. who is
he *REALLY*?) anyhow....Merlin asks Bill Roth if he would represent
Luke in a house of amber hearing.  "Bill" is shocked and suddenly
pleased.  Suppose that the two books here are actually Merlin's
testimony at such a hearing.  He may be leaving things out
deliberatly as a favor towards certain individuals, i.e. Jurt.
Remember, Jurt is a half brother and they share the same mother.

I'm interested in corresponding with any other amber speculators and
am anxiously awaiting the third book.  I don't see how he(Z.)  can
wrap things up in one more book, but if it is testimony, he could
leave us out of the details too!!

Mark Hittinger
University of Louisville
Louisville, Ky 40292
Bitnet: sysmsh@ulkyvx
Internet: sysmsh%ulkyvx.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 19:38:47 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (was: Wild Cards (aka Superheroes))

john13@garfield.UUCP writes:
>I though Roadmarks was great, very absorbing; you had to wait until
>the very end to understand the various plot entanglements, and this
>kept me interested much more than those books where you can look at
>the last page and

I liked Roadmarks too, though I'm not sure why.  I too didn't get a
lot of the references, thought I got that all-too familiar sense
that the author was lurking back there somewhere having just made a
terribly funny joke.

Your remark about having to wait until the end to understand things
- this strikes me as one of Zelazny's greatest strengths and also
his greatest weakness as a writer.  On the one hand, he leaves a lot
of questions lingering in the mind of the reader - there are many
different things going on in his books, and its hard not to wonder
what explains it all.  Unfortunately, sometimes he doesn't come back
and deal with them by the time the whole things's over - while he
answers the major questions, all those little things that puzzle you
along the way seem to go forgotten.  Anyone else get this
impression?

Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 May 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #233
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 May 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #233
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 233

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Alternate Worlds &
                             Codex Seraphinianus & 
                             Name Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 18:27:03 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Alternate Worlds Book list

   Well, since I haven't received any replies in the past few days,
I figure that I have all that are going to come in. I would like to
thank Kris Stephens, Jed Hartman, Robert Firth and Evelyn C. Leeper
for responding to my request. I appreciate it.
   Here is the list of books and authors I have gotten. Titles in
`""' are short stories and I included the magazines or collections
they appear in when possible.

Castaways in Time                                Robert Adams
Of Quest and Kings                               Robert Adams
Seven Magical Jewels of Ireland                  Robert Adams
"Danger: Religion!" (Neanderthal Planet)         Brian W. Aldiss
Eighty-Minute Hour                               Brian W. Aldiss
Frankenstein Unbound                             Brian W. Aldiss
Malacia Tapestry                                 Brian W. Aldiss
"If I Had Been H. Tojo in 1941"
     (Snowman--If I Had Been)                    Louis Allen
Alteration                                       Kingsley Amis
Guardians of Time                                Poul Anderson
High Crusade                                     Poul Anderson
Midsummer Tempest                                Poul Anderson
Time After Time                                  Allen Appel
When The Bells Rang                              Anthony Armstrong
"Earth Is Room Enough"                           Isaac Asimov
End of Eternity                                  Isaac Asimov
"Fall of Frenchy Steiner"
      (Moorcock--Best from New Worlds)           Hillary Bailey
Young Adolf                                      Beryl Bainbridge
Twilight Man                                     Otto Basil
"Through Road No Whither"
      (Benford--Hitler Victorious)               Greg Bear
Hitler Victorious (anthology)                    Gregory Benford
"Valhalla" (Hitler Victorious)                   Gregory Benford
"Father and Son" (Hole in the Lead Apron)        Jesse Bier
"Sound of Thunder" (R Is for Rocket)             Ray Bradbury
"Thor Meets Captain America"
      (Benford--Hitler Victorious)               David Brin
How It Happened Here                             Kevin Brownlow
Quicksand                                        John Brunner
Times Without Number                             John Brunner
"Never Meet Again" (Benford--Hitler Victorious)  Algis Budrys
"Battle of Dorking" (Moorcock--Before Armageddon) George Chesney
Bomb That Failed                                 Roland Clark
England under Hitler                             Comer Clarke
Matter of Time                                   Glen Cook
Burning Mountain                                 Alfred Coppel
Hubert's Arthur                                  Baron Corvo
Operation Sealion                                Richard Cox
"Branches of Time"                               David R. Daniels
Lest Darkness Fall                               L. Sprague De Camp
Wheels of If                                     L. Sprague De Camp
"Passage in Italics" (F&SF 5/72)                 William Dean
SS-GB                                            Len Deighton
Emperor of If                                    Guy Dent
Wrack & Rule                                     Bradley Denton
"Jon's World" (Derleth--Times to Come)           Philip K. Dick
Man in the High Castle                           Philip K. Dick
Moscow Option                                    David Downing
Second Front Now: 1943                           Walter S. Dunn
Relatives                                        Geo. Alec Effinger
"Target: Berlin!" (Silverberg--New Dimensions 6) Geo. Alec Effinger
"Red Skins" (F&SF 1/81)                          Gordon Eklund
"Sail On, Sail On" (Knight--Century of SF)       Philip Jose Farmer
Gate of Time (Two Hawks from Earth)              Philip Jose Farmer
Infinity's Web                                   Sheila Finch
"Reichs-Peace" (Benford--Hitler Victorious)      Sheila Finch
Dragon Waiting                                   John M. Ford
"Intersections" (IASFM 10/26/81)                 John M. Ford
"Mandalay" (IASFM 10/79)                         John M. Ford
"Out of Service" (IASFM 7/80)                    John M. Ford
"Slowly By, Lorena" (IASFM 11/80)                John M. Ford
"If Hitler Had Invaded England"
      (Post 4/16-30/60)                          C. S. Forester
"What If Hitler Got the Bomb?"
      (Polsey--What If?)                         Robert C. Fried
"The Forest of Time"                             Michael F. Flynn
Lord Darcy Investigates                          Randall Garrett
Too Many Magicians                               Randall Garrett
"Do Ye Hear the Children Weeping?"
      (Benford--Hitler Vict.)                    Howard Goldsmith
Great Kings' War                                 Roland Green
The Third World War                              Sir John Hackett
Rebel in Time                                    Harry Harrison
A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!                  Harry Harrison
Ivanhoe Gambit                                   Simon Hawke
Khyber Connection                                Simon Hawke
Nautilus Sanction                                Simon Hawke
Pimpernel Plot                                   Simon Hawke
Timekeeper Conspiracy                            Simon Hawke
Zenda Vendetta                                   Simon Hawke
When Adolf Came                                  Martin Hawkin
Job: A Comedy of Justice                         Robert Heinlein
The Number of the Beast                          Robert Heinlein
White Lotus                                      John Hersey
Proteus Operation                                James P. Hogan
October the First Is Too Late                    Fred Hoyle
"Flight That Failed"
      (Conklin--SF Adventures in Dimension)      E. M. Hull
Times-Square Samuria                             Robert B. Johnson
If the South Had Won Civil War                   MacKinlay Kantor
Different Drummer                                William M. Kelley
Unfought Battle                                  Jon Kimche
"Two Dooms" (Kornbluth--Best of C. M. Kornbluth) C.M. Kornbluth
Whenabouts of Burr                               Michael Kurland
Lammas Night                                     Katherine Kurtz
Assignment in Nowhere                            Keith Laumer
Beyond the Imperium                              Keith Laumer
Other Side of Time                               Keith Laumer
Worlds of the Imperium                           Keith Laumer
It May Happen Yet                                Edmund Lawrence
Lathe of Heaven                                  Ursula K. Le Guin
The Big Time                                     Fritz Leiber
"Catch that Zeppelin" (F&SF 3/75)                Fritz Leiber
Change War                                       Fritz Leiber
Destiny Times Three                              Fritz Leiber
"Sidewise in Time"
      (Asimov--Before the Golden Age)            Murray Leinster
Last Years                                       Oscar Lewis
"Moon of Ice"
      (Amazing 3/82; Benford--Hitler Victorious) Brad Linaweaver
If Britain Had Fallen                            Norman Longmate
Circumpolar                                      Richard Lupoff
"Country of the Mind" (Analog 5/75)              W. MacFarlane
"Heart's Desire and Other Simple Wants
      (Analog 4/71)                              W. MacFarlane
"Meet a Crazy Lady Week" (Analog 8/70)           W. MacFarlane
"One-Generation New World" (If 3/71)             W. MacFarlane
"Ravenshaw of WBY, Inc." (Analog 3/70)           W. MacFarlane
Englishman's Castle                              Philip Mackie
Invasion: The German Invasion of England, July 1940
                                                 Kenneth Macksey
Emerald Elephant Gambit                          Larry Maddock
Flying Saucer Gambit                             Larry Maddock
Golden Goddess Gambit                            Larry Maddock
Time Trap Gambit                                 Larry Maddock
Wild Cards I                                     George R. R. Martin
Wild Cards II: Aces High                         George R. R. Martin
Haigerloch Project                               Ib Melchior
At the Narrow Passage                            Richard C. Meredith
No Brother, No Friend                            Richard C. Meredith
Vestiges of Time                                 Richard C. Meredith
House of Many Worlds                             Sam Merwin
New Barbarians                                   Kirk Mitchell
Procurator                                       Kirk Mitchell
Behold the Man                                   Michael Moorcock
Land Leviathan                                   Michael Moorcock
Steel Tsar                                       Michael Moorcock
Warlord of the Air                               Michael Moorcock
"A Class with Dr. Chang"
      (Willy Ley -- Beyond Time)                 Ward Moore
Bring the Jubilee                                Ward Moore
Hitler Has Won                                   Frederic Mullally
"What If Peter Had Been Pope WWII"
      (Polsey--What If?)                         Walter F. Murphy
Ada                                              Vladmir Nabokov
If the South Had Won Gettysburg                  Mark Nesbitt
"All the Myriad Ways"
      (in the collection of the same name)       Larry Niven
Flight of the Horse                              Larry Niven
"Worlds of Monty Wilson" (Alien Horizons)        William F. Nolan
Ultimate Solution                                Eric Norden
The Crossroads of Time                           Andre Norton
"Many Rubicons" (Willy Ley -- Beyond Time)       Michael Orgill
Divide                                           William Overgard
Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen                         H. Beam Piper
Paratime                                         H. Beam Piper
Tunnel War                                       Joe Poyer
Other Time                                       Mack Reynolds
Pavane                                           Keith Roberts
"Weihnachtsabend" (Passing of Dragons)           Keith Roberts
No Clear and Present Danger                      Bruce M. Russett
Sound of His Horn                                Sarban
"Back to the Stone Age"
      (Proctor--Lone Star Universe)              Jake Saunders
Choice of Destinies                              Melissa Scott
"What Time Do You Call This?"
     (Tomorrow Lies in Ambush)                   Bob Shaw
"Deaths of Ben Baxter" (Store of Infinity)       Robert Sheckley
"Enemy Transmissions" (Benford--Hitler Victorious) Tom Shippey
"If Hitler Had Won World War II" (Look 12/15/61) William Shirer
"Trips" (Feast of Dionysius)                     Robert Silverberg
Gate of Worlds                                   Robert Silverberg
Up the Line                                      Robert Silverberg
The Gallatin Divergence                          L. Neil Smith
The Indians Won                                  Martin Smith
For Want of a Nail                               Robert Sobel
Iron Dream                                       Norman Spinrad
If It Had Happened Otherwise                     Sir John C. Squire
More Perfect Union                               Robert Stapp
Heads of Cerberus                                Francis Stevens
Aquiliad                                         Somtow Sucharitkul
Time Stream                                      John Taine
"Oracle"                                         W.R. Thompson
Raven of Destiny                                 Peter Tremayne
"If Mao Had Come to Washington"
      (Foreign Affairs 10/72)                    Barbara Tuchman
Misplaced Legion                                 Harry Turtledove
Trial of Adolf Hitler                            Phillipe Van Rjndt
"Custer's Last Jump" (Universe 6)                Howard Waldrop
"Ike at the Mike"
    (Datlow, Ellen--1st Omni Book of SF)         Howard Waldrop
Them Bones                                       Howard Waldrop
Alternative Histories                            C. Waugh
"Circle of Zero" (Martian Odyssey)               Stanley G. Weinbaum
"Worlds of If" (Best of S. G. Weinbaum)          Stanley G. Weinbaum
Lighter than a Feather                           David Westheimer
Sideslip                                         Ted White
Legion of Time                                   Jack Williamson
Spaceache                                        Snoo Wilson
"How I Lost the Second World War..." (Analog 5/73) Gene Wolfe
"Random Quest" (Infinite Moment)                 John Wyndham
Elleander Morning                                Jerry Yulsman
"Cliometricon" (Amazing 5/75)                    George Zebrowski
The Coming of the Quantum Cats
In the Barn ("Dangerous Visions" ed. Harlan Ellison)
Worlds of Maybe

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 12:26:08 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS

WMARTIN@SIMTEL20.ARPA writes:
>Well, I received my long-backordered copy of CODEX SERAPHINIANUS
>from Publishers Central Bureau yesterday. (Remaindered copies at
>$24.95, if you're interested.)

It would be helpful if you would post the information needed to
order the Codex from PCB, since I've been looking (unsuccessfully)
for this book for some time now and other readers might be
interested too. I've failed to see it in the remaindered book
catalogs I get since the last flurry of postings on the topic. Do
you have an order number for it, and PCB's address?

>4) Can anyone point me to any reviews or commentaries or other
>sources of information or discussions about this book or the
>artist?

There was a review in the New York Times Book Review in (I think)
1983. You can certainly find it at your local library. Haven't seen
any other reviews, though.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 15:12:49 GMT
From: mimsy!nbs-amrf!warsaw@RUTGERS.EDU (Warsaw)
Subject: INFO REQUEST: Famous Robot Names

   Hello.  I work here at the National Bureau of Standards in the
Robot Systems Division.  We do various kinds of robotic and
autonomous machine research.  We are about to receive quite a few
new workstations (Suns, IRIS's, etc) and we wanted a naming
convention for these machines.

We made the obvious choice: Famous Robots!  We've come up with a few
off the tops of our heads, but I thought I'd throw it open to this
group to see what you all can come up with.

THE GUIDELINES:
1) the theme is FICTIONAL robots in film, tv, literature, etc.
2) some kind of source or reference should be supplied if at all
   possible
3) use your own judgement as to what is a robot. For example, would
   HAL (from 2001) be considered a robot because he has an
   autonomous body... the ship?

SOME EXAMPLES:

ROBBIE           of Issac Asimov fame
R2D2             Star Wars
C3PO               -ditto-
NORMAN           Star Trek android coordinator (I, Mudd)
GORT (sp?)       Robot policeman from "Day the Earth Stood Still"
NOMAD            ST again (The Changling)
RUK              another ST android  (What are Little Girls...)
ROSIE            the Jetson's robot maid
CONKY (sp?)      Pee-wee Herman's robot (gives the secret word)
DANEEL           the human-like robot from "Robots of Dawn"
GISKARD          the telepathic robot from "Robots of Dawn"
HYMIE            Control's robot agent & Maxwell (Get) Smarts friend


A few specific requests:
1) the name of the robot from Lost in Space (was it just "Robot"?)
2) not having read the 1913 Czech play R.U.R., is there an actual
   robot in the play, and if so, what is his/hers/its name?

Please e-mail your responses and if there is interest, I'll post a
compilation.  Thanks in advance.

Barry A. Warsaw
National Bureau of Standards
Bldg 220  Rm B-124
Gaithersburg, MD. 20899
[seismo, mimsy]!nbs-amrf!warsaw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 May 87 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #234
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 May 87 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #234
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 234

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 20:42:55 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Moon is a Harsh Mistress (* MASSIVE SPOILERS *)

perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic) writes:
>Heinlein is no libertarian. Complete libertarianism is an
>idealization, and Heinlein doesn't deal in idealizations, he works
>with realities. None of his lead characters would die for an idea,
>though they would (and sometimes do) die for their family and their
>society (juvies excepted - I'm talking about `mature' Heinlein
>characters).

I'll have to disagree. Working with reality and being an idealist
are not mutually exclusive. You perhaps are thinking of utopians who
feel that they can make over the world in the image of their dreams.
Heinlein is not one of those, of course.  Neither are all
libertarians.  I believe Heinlein IS an idealist (not in the
philosophical sense i.e. idealism vs. materialism) in that he
believes (or at least his major characters seem to believe) that
there are certain (almost) absolute values and ethical principles
that should govern human social conduct.  His characters usually
remain steadfastly true to their beliefs regardless of the winds of
the general society blowing around them, and they will die for honor
or whatever (why did Mike Smith die?  could he have avoided it?).
Usually the view we get of the society, governments, and especially
social and political leaders seen through the eyes of Heinlein's
characters is one of deserved contempt.  The protagonist is often a
bright loner fighting to get the right thing done (even if it is
illegal) against massive institutionalized collective stupidity.  (I
wonder what Heinlein thinks of Col. North., or if he likes the
character portrayed by Charles Bronson in Death Wish.)  Heinlein
clearly seems to admire nonconformists and rugged individualists.
There is a similarity between his characters and those of Ayn Rand,
although Rand's are far more cardboard characters drawn so she can
give speeches through their mouths (but Heinlein has the tendancy to
have his characters give speeches too, thank goodness much shorter
than Rand's).  In each book there is usually an older male who seems
to be expressing Heinlein's views (given the similarity over many
books).  Jubal Harshaw and Lazarus Long are good archtypes of this
character.  He is usually somewhat grumpy, very opinionated, crafty,
experienced in the ways of the world, and competent.  While this
character is pragmatic, he never will betray his principles or his
honor, and thus I say that Heinlein is idealistic.  While I disagree
with Heinlein's militaristic views, I do admire his nonconformist
stance and have enjoyed reading his books over the years.

Sorry for rambling on.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 02:13:29 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>Leonard Erickson responds:
>>It is offensive _specifically because_ it was intended to offend the
>>sensibilities of anyone who couldn't see that many of our cultural
>>"givens" are _not_ laws of nature.
>
>>Heinlein's avowed intent was to write a book making a case
>>(cases?)  for the opposite of various "unquestionable" axioms.
>>Cannibalism, marriage, sex, religion...
>
>But not homophobia?  Oh, sorry, this must be a law of nature.

Sorry, Kathy, but homophobia was covered. Think back on various male
characters (esp the reporter whose name escapes me at the moment) to
their first encounter with group _mixed_ sex.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 22:36:19 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

From: Zigetty <PEU1347%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk>
>How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic piece
>of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and
>typical work) is beyond my comprehension.  Despite the fact that
>the U.S.  was crippled both economically and politically by its
>involvement in S.E.  Asia,people still maintain that Heinlen is a
>credible author.  What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER
>WAR ?  Or seen Platoon....

Huh? Let's see here...first of all, you seem to be saying that
hatred is evil in and of itself.  "Blatantly militaristic", yes.  Is
that bad?  Xenophobia?  Depends on the character of the aliens.

Then a >big< context switch to associate ST with the Vietnam War.
In fact it predated that war by some years. True, Heinlein endorsed
Vietnam, but that's another story.  Apparently this writer feels
that only "politically correct" writers are "credible authors", and
cites several p.c. works (that is, works that agree with his
prejudices) for our approval.

Above and beyond this superficial analysis is the recurrent defense
of Heinlein as dramatizer of contrary themes to make us think and
reexamine our values.

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 20:07:58 GMT
From: cmcl2!bnl!abrams@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl L. Abrams)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

(MacLeod) write:
>mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
>>in a Strange Land".  I hated it.
>
> I can't imagine anybody hating Stanger in a Strange Land.

I read where Heinlein said that HE hated it.  It's one of the few
books by H. that I liked.

ARPA:   abrams@bnl.APRA
BITNET: abrams@bnl.BITNET
UUCP:   ....philabs!sbcs!bnl!abrams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 11:32:18 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein and Strangers in a Strange Land

For many years Heinlein was my favorite author, and I made no bones
about it. His recent works have been a disappointment, and I have
subsequently avoided the last two so as not to change my overall
appreciation of the man as an author (alright, so he's getting old.
That's not a crime, happens to us all, I just prefer to remember him
as he was).

But and but!!  Strangers in a Strange Land (SIASL) is far and away
my LEAST favorite of his books. I, also, read it when I was 15 or
16, and detested it. I think it is criminal that someone could have
the stupidity to give this book to a person as an introduction to
SF. Doesn't surprise me one bit that the people who had this
inflicted upon them subsequently hated all SF. For that matter, I
didn't much care for I Will Fear No Evil.  But I love Friday, Time
Enough for Love, Methusalah's Children, Podkayne of Mars, etc.

Nuff said!!

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 May 87 10:54:04-PDT
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: Zigetty:Heinlein (v12,#210)

RE:  Zigetty >PEU1237%UK.AC.BRADFORD.CENTRAL.CYBER1@ac.uk
>...How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic
>piece of raw hate... What's wrong haven't any of you read the
>FOREVER WAR?  Or seen Platoon....

Although Eric Carpenter all ready stole most of my thunder with
his message in 12 May SF-L Digest v12#224
[FLAMES ON]
it thoroughly irks me, the amount of self-righteous moralizing
that goes on by folks who either don't have a stake in the issue
or haven't sufficient experience in the matter to have an informed
opinion.
[FLAMES OFF]
One of the things that makes Heinlein one of my favorite authors,
[along with Jerry Pournelle, H. Beam Piper, and Gordon Dickson], in
spite of the fact that there are attitudes expressed in several of
his works with which i feel uncomfortable in recommending to my
children, is that he exhibits an understanding of *THE REAL WORLD*
that seems to be under-appreciated in these so-called enlightened
times.  For example, there is a myth circulating that claims that
wars are somehow caused by some person or group acquiring strength
suitable for violence.  Garbage!  Wars are have only two causes: the
first is violation of a basic natural right, expressed quite
succinctly in the Mosaic Law as the commandment against
covetousness, and second is FEAR that the first is about to occur.
As long as there is a being who is willing to assume that the
product of another's creativity belongs to the first, merely because
the first desires it and is willing (and able) to use force to
obtain it, it will be necessary for the rest of us to be on our
guard and prepare to resist.  Otherwise, the universe within our
reach will degenerate to barbaric slavery.
   Another example is found early in _Starship_Troopers_.  Only
folks who had served the state had the privileges of citizenship.
Should those who have no stake in an issue be permitted a say-so?
e.g.: If one does not own property, should one be allowed a vote in
a bond issue?
   It is Heinlein's understanding of the basics, things like
personal responsibility, the right to be left alone, plus his
(generally) good story lines that keep me buying his works.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 19:17:30 GMT
From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"

Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately),
that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL.  For those of you
that would like to defend that premise, please explain this excerpt
from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't think it is
out of context):

   "She [Jill] discussed it [exhibitionism] with Mike -- but Mike
could not understand why Jill had ever minded being looked at.  He
understood not wishing to be touched; Mike avoided shaking hands, he
wanted to be touched only by water brothers.  (Jill wasn't sure how
far this went; she had explained homosexuality, after Mike had read
about it and failed to grok -- and had given him rules for avoiding
passes; she knew that Mike, pretty as he was, would attract such.
He had followed her advice and had made his face more masculine,
instead of the androgynous beauty he had had.  But Jill was not sure
that Mike would refuse a pass, say from Duke -- fortunately Mike's
male water brothers were decidedly masculine, just as his others
were very female women.  Jill suspected that Mike would grok a
"wrongnesss" in the poor in-betweeners anyhow -- they would never be
offered water.)"

The rough translation as I see it?  We don't have to worry about
homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with
the rest of the social degenerates.

And the line about "very female women"?!!!  Gag!  What other kinds
are there?  Heinlein makes me want to puke.

Kay
k@mit-eddie.UUCP
kay@MIT-XX.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 02:37:29 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #210

>Heinlen was years before his time in that he pre-empted the
>laissez-faire/new right libertarianism which is sweeping the west.

   He also anticipated the hippie/counterculture movement of the
1960s in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, which was published in 1961,
and mostly written during the 50's. RAH seems to be an expert
anticipator.

>How anyone can take a blatantly militaristic and xenophobic piece
>of raw hate like Starship Troopers as a work of intelligent (and
>typical work) is beyond my comprehension.  Despite the fact that
>the U.S.  was crippled both economically and politically by its
>involvement in S.E.  Asia,people still maintain that Heinlen is a
>credible author.  What's wrong haven't any of you read the FOREVER
>WAR ?  Or seen Platoon....

   I have read FOREVER WAR; excellent book. I have seen
PLATOON; good, though a touch overrated. I was an antiwar
activist in the 1960s, still feel the same today. Our Nicaraguan
involvement is utterly vile.
   So what? I still think STARSHIP TROOPERS is an excellent novel,
fully deserving of the Hugo it won. Do you find it impossible to
like a book that presents ideas you disagree with?  Do you feel it
necessary to throw around epithets like "raw hate" without
supporting them? I won't presume to judge your general ability to be
a perceptive reader, but I must say your reaction to ST sounds
completely knee-jerk. Your brief article doesn't even contain any
evidence you've *read* the book, but does suggest that, if you have,
you read it while wearing political blinders.
    I don't mean to be harsh, but I do get impatient with
Heinlein-trashing by people who don't offer any support for their
disgust. You don't like his politics; big deal, neither do I. I do
like (most of) his books, though.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 23:47:44 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"
>Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately),
>that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL.  For those of you
>that would like to defend that premise, please explain this excerpt
>from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't think it is
>out of context):

[excerpt from SIASL deleted. I don't think it was out of context
either. It's the scene where Jill is musing about how Mike might
avoid a pass from men, and winds up deciding that he would "grok a
wrongness in the poor in-betweeners" and therefore wouldn't be
interested anyway.] [Personal comment: bleah. Phooey on you, Jill.]

It's worth remembering that this is Jill speaking, not the narrator.
Jill can be a homophobe without the narrator being one, and the
narrator can be one without the author being one.

Heinlein's works have often seemed a bit dubious of homosexuality to
me. This quotation was not out of context, but it is equally true
that Jubal bawls out one of the guys in the novel for getting
freaked out by the idea of gay contact. My impression is generally
that H. seems uncomfortable with the natural implications of the
theories he likes to espouse (if friendly sex is great, gay sex is
going to get in there too). Of course, Heinlein's own feelings are
not relevant; it's what's in his books that matters, and that's what
I'm trying to stick to addressing.

I guess it boils down to, how much of a personally repugnant
philosophy can you accept, if you feel that the writing is good and
the story interesting? I liked both STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE
FOREVER WAR. If you don't feel that the writing is good or the story
interesting, then by all means, reject the book. For me, Heinlein is
like 'Doc' Smith in that other discussion going on; I'll forgive him
his trespasses because he didn't have a clue :-). I wish he had had
one, though.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 May 87 1017-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #235
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 May 87 1017-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #235
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 235

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cherryh & Herbert & Leiber &
                        Robinson & Vance & Zelazny (3 msgs) &
                        Doc Savage (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 21:43:41 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: CJ Cherryh

From: Dave Allen <davea@ll-vlsi.arpa>
> Someone recently mentioned a CJ Cherryh novelette _Scapegoat_.
> Does anybody know what book/collection this was published in, or
> where I could find it?

I found it in a book titled ALIEN STARS, edited by Elizabeth
Mitchell Baen Books, 1985.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 23:56 EST
From: WELTY RICHARD P              <WELTY@ge-crd.arpa>
Subject: Re: What is Hard SF?

> ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel) writes:
>    "Dragon of the Deep" may be an alternate title, but the version
>I have is "Under Pressure".  I agree with you-- Herbert seems to
>have his stuff together on this one.  It is probably my favorite
>submarine story, with the possible exception of "Blow Negative!"
>(author forgotten, story hilarious).

This is my favorite Herbert novel, although third on my list of
books about submarines (for real submarine stories, see Edward
Beach's novel _Run_Silent,_Run_Deep_, and his nonfiction
_Submarine_).

I believe that _Under_Pressure_ (original title in Astounding) also
appeared as _Dragon_in_the_Sea_ and _21st_Century_Sub_, both
obviously inferior titles.  Blame the editor in the paperback house...

Richard Welty
CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM
Internet:  welty@ge-crd.ARPA
Usenet:    {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 10:56:16 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rolf@SEISMO.CSS.GOV
Subject: Fritz Leiber works

Rolf Howarth asked if there were any Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories
other than "the six 'Swords' books". Well, I don't know if this
story eventually appeared in one of those books, but I just happened
to have recently finished reading a 1974 DAW paperback called THE
BOOK OF FRITZ LEIBER, which consists of stories selected by Leiber
which had not been published or anthologized in other
readily-available sources, and which has an introduction by Leiber
discussing the publishing history of each item. One of these is a
short-short (only 2 pages of text!) called "Beauty and the Beasts",
with Fafhrd and the Mouser, which the intro describes as "especially
written for this book". (Maybe this is a rare collectible, the only
source of this ever printed? I'll entertain offers...:-)

This brings up a question about this book which occurred to me as I
was reading it. Maybe jayembee or another bibliographic expert can
say just what the publishing history of this story was, and reduce
my confusion: This book includes a story in Leiber's "Change War"
series, titled "Knight to Move". Leiber's intro (remember, this is
vintage 1974) states, "It previously saw light only in the excellent
girlie magazine BROADSIDE." However, as I read this story, I clearly
and distinctly recalled having read it before, and I never have seen
a magazine called "Broadside"! I don't think I've read much Leiber
later than 1974, so it is doubtful that I read it in some other
anthology during this past decade -- I did most of my reading of
this sort of thing back in the 60's and earlier, and gave away my SF
paperback collection in the late sixties or 1970. So I am next to
positive that I read that story sometime *BEFORE* 1974, but the
author himself states that it was not published in anything I would
have read during that timeframe! So I am really confused... Any
explanations? (I suppose Leiber could simply have been wrong...)

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@almsa-1.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 13:05:47 GMT
From: harvard!wjh12!lsrhs!diamond@RUTGERS.EDU (Beth Abrams)
Subject: Re: Movie Flame Plagarismic huh?

From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
(various examples omitted here)
>I'm sorry if I sound shrill -- what I'm really getting at is that
>you folks are taking what seems to me an excessively legalistic,
>capitalistic stance on this matter.  Plots and genres were not
>considered a form of personal property until nations started
>passing copyright laws.  I, for one, find these laws scary
>sometimes.  If Shakespeare was alive today,
(other examples omitted)

There is a story by Spider Robinson on this very subject.  It's
called _Melancholy_Elephants_ , in the anthology of the same name.
It deals with a prospective law that would make all artistic
copyrights *perpetual*, no statue of limitations whatsoever.  The
implications of this are explored fairly thoroughly.  I found myself
reevaluating my own ideas of 'ownership' where Art is concerned.
It's worth reading and thinking about, as is most of Spider
Robinson's writing.

Beth Abrams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 87 15:06:36 edt
From: David Kurlander <djk@vail.columbia.edu>
Subject: Vance & McCaffrey

Just read Jack Vance's story "The Dragon Masters", which won the
short fiction Hugo in '63, and noticed some very strong similarities
between this and McCaffrey's DragonWhatever series.  Both deal with
a world which regularly undergoes alien attack whenever the "Red
Star" passes nearby.  The humans of each of these worlds use
genetically altered dragons in order to counter alien forces.
Though most of the parallels are only on the surface, this seems
like an extraordinary coincidence.  Has McCaffrey ever commented on
this -- did she write an intentional tribute to Vance (who I assume
published his story before any of the McCaffrey books)?  Or should
we chalk up another one for deep-rooted Jungian archetypes?  Though
I don't particularly like McCaffrey's books, these statements aren't
intentionally pern-icious.  In most ways her books are very
different from Vance's story.

David Kurlander

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 21:51:30 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Cryptic Zelazny

> kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
>> markan@faron.UUCP (The MITRE Corporation)
>> Has anyone read Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_?  I got the
>> impression that the book was the last in a series, perhaps
>> describing the life & times of one Shadowjack, and that I'd
>> missed the first {1,2,5} books!
>   Personally, "Jack of Shadows" is one of my favorite Zelazny
> books.  I didn't have any trouble following who was who.  I would,
> however, love to see him do something more with the character and
> the world.  I wish he would write those you feel are missing.

Ah, yes.  I agree with Kathryn.  And addressed to the cryptic-ness
of Zelazny writing in general, I'll refer you to Zelazny's
collection "Unicorn Variations".  Very good, though I'd read most of
the stories before.  And it contains a section of Zelazny explaining
that he feels certain things should be *left out* of a story for
best effect, what these things are, and even an example of something
he left out of "The Isle of the Dead".  "Fascinating."

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 19:57:15 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Zelazny's "left-out" stories

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>Ah, yes.  I agree with Kathryn.  And addressed to the cryptic-ness
>of Zelazny writing in general, I'll refer you to Zelazny's
>collection "Unicorn Variations".  Very good, though I'd read most
>of the stories before.  And it contains a section of Zelazny
>explaining that he feels certain things should be *left out* of a
>story for best effect, what these things are, and even an example
>of something he left out of "The Isle of the Dead".  "Fascinating."

NO NO NO.. Zelzny's comments Unicorn Variations make it quite clear
that the story presented there, and others of its ilk, are stories
that he makes up about his characters that have nothing to do with
the book. They wern't left out or edited out, they were never
supposed to be included. They have nothing to do with the story,
they are asides about the character that he has created to help him
form that characters personality. They are bits of personal history
that help shape a person, mold his character- give you a window on
his soul (as it were). Zelazny uses these to "better understand" the
person he is writing about.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 02:29:57 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (also Bad in General, and Lensing)

dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
> Your remark about having to wait until the end to understand
> things - this strikes me as one of Zelazny's greatest strengths
> and also his greatest weakness as a writer.  On the one hand, he
> leaves a lot of questions lingering in the mind of the reader -
> there are many different things going on in his books, and its
> hard not to wonder what explains it all.  Unfortunately, sometimes
> he doesn't come back and deal with them by the time the whole
> things's over - while he answers the major questions, all those
> little things that puzzle you along the way seem to go forgotten.
> Anyone else get this impression?

The character who dressed all in one colour had me wondering if I
was supposed to know who he was. Many years later, reading the
e-news, I found out! Leaving these little "time-bombs" scattered
throughout a story is a technique I like...you can just imagine that
there *is* no significance or explanation if you like, or imagine
your own version, or just suspend your disbelief. Then if you later
find out the answer, that is an extra bit of satisfaction you get
from the book.

Conversely, which books did you think really telegraphed their plot
twists or endings? I thought "Lord Valentine's Castle" was the worst
thing Silverberg ever wrote...ah yes, so cliched, but yet so trite
with just that _rien_ of predictability.

John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 87 09:15:24 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Roadmarks --> Doc Savage

>I would have shrugged it off as just another unsolved mystery
>except that not long after _Raodmarks_ I read _Doc Savage: His
>Apocolyptic Life_ by Philp Jose Farmer.  This book (a 'biography'
>of Doc Savage - Man of Bronze..........
>
>Of course I've never read any Doc Savage adventures or I assume
>this all would have been obvious to me immediately.  Apparently
>Zelazny >decided to have a little fun with his readers while paying
>homage to a science fiction character (I assume) he has a great
>deal of affection for.

Heavens!  How did you come to read Farmer's book without reading any
of the originals?  I didn't think anyone who didn't already like Doc
would tackle his biography.  Anyway, you should check the Doc Savage
books out.  They are consistently entertaining and well written,
considering that Dent had to crank them out month after month.  For
the most part, they are formula writing, but a pretty good formula.
In the later books, Dent takes Doc in a more down to earth direction
and the stories loose some of their zest, but none of their
interest.

My favorites (so far, titles hazy now)

_Caves of the Living Fire_
_The Freckled Shark_    (Doc gets involved with a woman - almost)
_The Green Death_

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 05:15:18 GMT
From: mimsy!chris@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Roadmarks --> Doc Savage

ted@braggvax.arpa writes:
>... the Doc Savage books ... are consistently entertaining and well
>written, considering that Dent had to crank them out month after
>month.

Well, actually, there are a few rotten apples---I suspect these are
restricted to those by the other authors; Dent did not write them
all---and the magazine was not always monthly.  There are also a few
diamonds, and the rest is rather rough---but still a lot of fun.

>For the most part, they are formula writing, but a pretty good
>formula.  In the later books, Dent takes Doc in a more down to
>earth direction and the stories loose some of their zest, but none
>of their interest.

Actually, I think the later ones, where we get to see Doc thinking,
`Boy this was a dumb idea.  How did I get myself into this mess?',
are in fact superior.

>My favorites (so far, titles hazy now)
>_Caves of the Living Fire_

_The_Living_Fire_Menace_?

>_The Freckled Shark_   (Doc gets involved with a woman - almost)

This happens several times: Try _King_Joe_Cay_, in Omnibus #2.  A
most atypical story, but, I think, a `must read' for Doc fans.  Or
try this:

    You ought to know about ribbons.  The yellow one with the two
 red stripes is for China Service.  The red ribbon with the pair of
 triple white stripes---good conduct.  Purple with white ends,
 Purple Heart.  Blue, red, and white stripes, Distinguished Service
 Cross.  Blue, yellow and red bands, the Yangtze Medal.
    The years and the terrors of a man's life worn over his heart.
    This boy had all of these ribbons.  Except the good-conduct one.
 He didn't have that one.
    He was wearing them, too.  They looked like a flag on his chest.
 Normally he didn't wear them; he carried them in his pocket, in a
 little teakwood velvet-lined case wonderfully made for him by a
 Karen in Burma.  The boy felt very deeply about them, but he
 wouldn't have admitted it for anything.  However, he wasn't exactly
 a boy.
    He was over twenty-eight.  Not old enough for that gray to
 belong in his hair.  He was leathery and rangy and long-nosed and
 blue-eyed and he looked at you as if he owned you.  That is a thing
 American soldiers are beginning to do, look at you as if they own
 you.  And they do, in a way.
    He had a callous like a corn on a finger of his left hand, his
 50-calibre trigger finger.
    And now they were trying to kill him.
    He was walking down Fifth Avenue.  Looking.  Looking at
 everything gladly and hungrily, as if he wanted to eat it.  Looking
 at the legs of the girls walking on Fifth Avenue.  Ogling the
 plaster-of-paris legs of the mannikins in the store windows.  Going
 ``woo-woo'' at the girls walking by him on the street.  He wanted
 to jump over the buildings, you could tell.  He would get up on his
 toes and dance a step or two, and whirl completely around.  Like a
 ballet dancer.  As if God had given him wings.

    Murder.
    It was a very carefully planned thing, this project of sudden
 death.  It was getting the care that a murder deserves.  The boy
 with the ribbons, the boy who was so glad that he was almost sick
 at his stomach, was going to be slain in cold blood.  Cold
 blood---if anyone knows why they call it that.
    It was hard to be sure how many men were going to help do it to
 him.  Thousands of people were on Fifth Avenue, probably no more
 nor less than there are any days.  Pointing them out would be as
 difficult as picking four maggots who had had catfish for dinner
 from a basketful of other maggots who had had sunfish for dinner.
 Very difficult.  They weren't doing anything to get fingers pointed
 at them.
    Keeping track of the boy, was all.  Waiting.  But waiting has
 its end.  Suspense can draw out just about so far, and then
 something must happen.
    So one of the men walked up behind the boy with a long knife and
 started to put the blade in between the boy's third and fourth ribs
 where it would reach the boy's happy heart.

      From the beginning of _The_Ten_Ton_Snakes,
      March 1945.

Chris Torek
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690)
chris@mimsy.umd.edu
seismo!mimsy!chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 May 87 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #236
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 May 87 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #236
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 236

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Hard SF (2 msgs) &
                                 The Perfect Creature (4 msgs) &
                                 Monster Names (2 msgs) & 
                                 Planets (2 msgs) &
                                 Costuming Query & 
                                 Time/Dimension travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 May 87 18:36:02 GMT
From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: What is Hard SF?

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
>In my opinion, hard science fiction is fiction in which the author
>draws heavily upon known (though often obscure) science fact when
>inventing new worlds or concepts.

Hi! Hard science Fiction can also be intensively boring - especially
when the whole novel is constructed like a text book on physics or
astronomy.

Usually I can't get through the book if there is a lot of scientific
explanations - and often the writer (college teacher or scientist
turned to writing) don't have a sense at all to describe feelings
and human relations.

A good example of this is MacDevitt's "Hercules Text", a very
interesting reading about SETI and how this discovery affects the
human society; however the *love story* between the boy and the girl
is very sterile and clumsy.

>I really enjoy reading works of an author who can explain the basis
>for some of what occurs in his stories.  It gives the fiction a
>sense of realism which in turn makes it more believeable and
>involving.

I'm curious to know why realistic writing is more home familiar and
involving than pure imaginary stuff? It's the same "sense of wonder"
that works anyway.

Kent Sandvik
ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden
PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home
ARPA:  enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:  ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 19:43:06 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@rutgers.edu (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: What is Hard SF?

ksand@mapper.UUCP (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>I'm curious to know why realistic writing is more home familiar and
>involving than pure imaginary stuff? It's the same "sense of
>wonder" that works anyway.

I just like to read stuff that I believe could actually happen,
that's all.  Sure, I like the pure fantasy of some science fiction,
but I like reading an author who knows what he is talking about
rather than one who just makes things up completely out of the blue.
This isn't to say that what I want to read is a treatise on
astrophysics or biochemistry.  Not at all.  I think that if the
author can be creative, interesting and thought-provoking (of the
wouldn't that be neat variety) all at the same time, so much the
better.

I'm not criticizing authors who use more imagination than scientific
knowledge, just stating that I enjoy the latter type better.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 23:52:30 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: The perfect (??) creature

gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Gideon Sheps) writes (responding to one of my
postings):
>Man is indeed a very flexible creature. We are really only
>specialized in one area - our brains - and that is one of the most
>powerfull tools for aiding us in rapid adapting, ...
>... Now, this brain thing does have its disadvantages, we
>may yet blow ourselves off the planet as a direct result of its
>application, but you have to take the bad with the good as they
>say!

Yes, it seems indeed that our brain structure (the `shape of our
mind') is the one thing that evolution has done well by us. Still,
we should never forget that even the structure of our mind is still
subject to the same evolutionary rules as the shape of our hands and
the geometry of our eyes.  (And no religious flames, please.) Our
minds, the way we think, even the ways we *can* (and cannot) think,
are the result of evolutionary, genetical adaptation to *relevant*
features of our environment. The reason why we can't come up with an
*intuitive* understanding of relativistic or quantum effects, for
example, is simply that there was no competitive advantage in it.
Similar fundamental inabilities exist in the understanding of
multidimensional spaces and time, and in the (intuitive)
understanding of non-linear causality networks (this last one may be
directly responsible for MANY things that we have screwed up in our
environment, economy and society). In fact, one of the major
achievements of humankind is *mathematical and logical calculus*,
which gives us a (rather awkward but workable) way to transcend
these limitations of our brain.

If you are interested in the structure of the human mind, and the
inner workings of evolution, you should read the works of *Konrad
Lorenz*, *Rupert Riedl*, *Manfred Eigen* and some other Austrian and
German scientists and philosophers who have built a quite impressive
system of theories about these issues in the last decades. Send me
mail if you want the quotations. Fair warning, though: it's not
trivial.

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 11:13:39 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #216

> (Bill Ingogly writes)
> I always find aliens that were designed using an engineering
> approach unconvincing in SF stories. Evolution solves problems in
> a way that has nothing to do with a human engineer's approach to a
> problem. But too many SF authors approach the 'design' of an alien
> creature as though evolution somehow worked with a set of
> requirements to develop specs, then proceeded through various
> design stages in a rational fashion. The result is a creature that
> leaves someone with a background in biology scratching her head
> and wondering if ANYONE in the SF field knows anything about
> fundamental evolutionary theory. The creature feels phony in the
> same way a poorly-drawn, cardboard human character feels phony.

This is very true.  Why don't we use our powers as science fiction
fans to design a critter -- call it Demiurge -- which designs and
builds other critters?  Then the creatures that Demiurge builds will
look engineered, because they _are_ engineered.  I believe that
Niven's Tnuctipun (spelling optional) behaved this way.

Demiurge is a much more plausible thing to evolve than our nominal
perfect critter.  We won't insist that Demiurge's intrests in
critter design, or its ability to build critters, evolved directly;
they might as well be manifestations of a general intelligence.  In
fact, we don't need to look much past the network to find would-be
members of the Demiurge species. I'll ask my gene-hacking friends in
the MIT Biology department to build whatever we design.

(-8 It'll have to be derived from 954-cell nematodes, though --
unless you want mutant slime mold.  Those are the largest (most
macroscopic) critters they work with here. 8-)

Bard Bloom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 11:24:40 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #216

>>perry@inteloa.intel.com writes:
>>There's a lesson for us humans in there somewhere, but I'm going to
>>let it stand for now - feel free to invest some thought...
>
> gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
> Man, in fact, is very well suited to a rapidly changing environment.
> Perhaps we have learned nature's lesson in the process of our
> evolution?  We no longer adapt to our surroundings, rather we mold
> our surroundings whenever possible (soon the whole world will look
> like a McDonalds :-)

I think the first writer is closer to the mark than the second.  We
do indeed mould our environment -- but not always the way we want
it.  It seems rather likely that we're going to see how well our
ability to adapt to high levels of UV sunlight, or radiation in
general, or an environment full of bizarre chemicals -- none of
which our species history as foragers in central Africa has prepared
us for very well.

Anyone want to bet which will do better in two hundred years,
cockroaches or humans?  (This is one bet I'll be glad to lose.)

Bard

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 19:56:52 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #216

bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU writes:
>This is very true.  Why don't we use our powers as science fiction
>fans to design a critter --call it Demiurge -- which designs and
>builds other critters?  Then the creatures that Demiurge builds
>will look engineered, because they _are_ engineered.  I believe
>that Niven's Tnuctipun (spelling optional) behaved this way.

Actually, species like your Demiurge have appeared numerous times in
SF: for example, Ursula K. LeGuin's species that designed the
humanoid species in her universe as experiments.

What bothers me are descriptions of NATURALLY EVOLVED species that
make no sense in SF works that claim to be presenting plausible
universes. Artificial species or species in works that don't claim
to be naturalistic don't raise my hackles.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 15:12:00 GMT
From: bokhour.applicon!bokhour@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Monster names

This probably gets posted from time to time, but...

I'm compiling a list of old movie monsters like rodan and mothra. No
one I've asked can remember the name of the giant jet propelled
turtle who could fly by retracting his limbs and spinning. Anyone
remember? Any other interesting monsters would be appreciated. Thanx

Dave Bokhour
Applicon, a division of Schlumberger Systems, Inc.
829 Middlesex Tpk.
P.O. Box 7004
Billerica MA, 01821
uucp: {allegra|decvax|mit-eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!bokhour
      {amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!bokhour

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 16:25:32 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Monster names

bokhour@bokhour.applicon.UUCP writes:
>I've asked can remember the name of the giant jet propelled turtle
>who could fly by retracting his limbs and spinning. Anyone
>remember? Any other interesting monsters would be appreciated.
>Thanx

The spelling may be off but the monster you speak of is called Gamera.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 87 18:02:31 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Ellipsoidal planets
To: PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

> From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> The ellipsoid planet will give severe differences in
> atmospheric pressure ...

No it won't.  Ignoring mountains and valleys, any planet will have
an equipotential surface.  Air pressure will be the same everywhere
on the "sea level" surface.

Hal Clement (Mesklin) seems to have realized this, but Larry Niven
(Jinx) apparently has not.  Robert Forward (Rocheworld) also got it
right.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 20:31:14 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes:
>No it won't.  Ignoring mountains and valleys, any planet will have
>an equipotential surface.  Air pressure will be the same everywhere
>on the "sea level" surface.
>
>Hal Clement (Mesklin) seems to have realized this, but Larry Niven
>(Jinx) apparently has not.  Robert Forward (Rocheworld) also got it
>right.

This generally makes sense, but wouldn't the rotation make a big
difference as far as winds currents, and thus movement of pressure
systems, goes?  It seems to me that the earth's rotation makes a
very large difference in weather patterns, and we're on a pretty
much spherical planet.  The Coriolis force would probably be
enormous on an elliptical planet, and I would tend to think that the
crowding of air masses and subsequent turbulence would make very
large pressure differences from region to region, especially if the
planet was tilted on its axis so that it warmed unevenly.  Maybe we
should post this to the sci.astro guys and see what they say.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 05:02:44 GMT
From: jeffg@tekecs.tek.com (Jeff Glover)
Subject: costuming (masks) query

I'm planning an elaborate costume for an upcoming convention, but
haven't the slightest idea of how to put together a very complex
piece, the full-face mask.

This mask will be covered with fur, either fake or real, depending
on suggestions I receive and experience.  I plan to begin
experimenting soon.  Here are some thoughts: Starting with a skin
cap, I cover it carefully with fur using something like spirit gum
or other theatrical skin adhesive.  Then I make a latex face mask by
first doing a plaster mold of my face and applying the liquid latex
to a positive cast made from the mold.  Again I apply fur to this.
Any better suggestions for this process?

I've seen some photo's of a very good mask (and costume) - it is
quite stunning when done properly.

Questions:

    1) anybody know of any books or articles covering practical
       suggestions and/or materials for this endeavor?

    2) anybody know of any reliable mail-order costume houses?
       Someone who supplies costumes for plays and productions may
       do very well.

    3) any suggestions?

Since this is obviously not of general interest, please *reply by
mail* - I'll summarize by mail for those that request it.

Jeff C. Glover
Tektronix, Inc.
PO Box 1000, MS 61-277, Wilsonville, OR 97070
(503) 685-2207
jeffg@tekecs.GWD.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 12:27 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Time/Dimension travel

   I would be interested in help from the net on the subject of
time/dimension travel.  It has been one of my favorite pet subjects,
both from a fiction and philosophical viewpoint.  As a reader, I
have consumed most of the available works on the subject, and as an
adventure gamer I have just gotten an FRP game on the subject
published.  I will blow my own horn only to extent of saying it is
called TimeLords and will be available at the Origins convention.
But back to the point.
   I will be giving a seminar on time/dimension travel at said
convention, and I am interested in hearing as many diverse
viewpoints on the subject as possible, to make sure I haven't
overlooked anything obvious.  All comments are welcome, both on
"theory", literary references (although I probably have most of
those), and how the subject can be used in adventure gaming.  As an
example...
   Some people hold to the "deterministic universe" theory, which
basically states that you can't change anything once it has
happened.  For time travellers, this means that they cannot alter
history in any way, but it is possible that their actions were what
caused history to be that way in the first place, and that it was
fated from the start.
   I personally hold that this doesn't wash.  To wit: This theory is
not feasible because the "physics" of time travel can be manipulated
by thought.  For instance, I am looking at the doorway of my office
right now.  If I made this knowledge public enough, it would be part
of recorded history that at such and such a time and place, *no time
travellers suddenly appeared*.  Therefore, simply by stating it, I
have prevented it.  The better history becomes recorded, the less it
becomes possible to even time travel, let alone be a part of an
event.  By this theory, a culture with no history would have
unlimted time travel, but a culture where everything was recorded
would have none.
   Viewpoints and ideas like this are what I am looking for.  Is
anyone interested in losing their sanity by trying to expound on
this interesting but metaphysically tangled subject?

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 May 87 0850-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #237
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 May 87 0850-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #237
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 237

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Joan D. Vinge (Part I)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 23:39:36 GMT
From: 6065833@pucc.princeton.edu (Una Smith)
Subject: Joan D. Vinge article (long)

I thought the following article might be of interest to SF fans and
feminists. Enjoy.  Any email sent to me (and of a positive nature),
will be forwarded to Joan D. Vinge.

Una Smith
(6065833@PUCC)

(deleted several issues)


Copyright 1987 by Joan D. Vinge
Reproduced courtesy of Infinity Mag., a science fiction magazine
produced by Princeton University students.

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 19:42:45 GMT
From: trent@csvax.caltech.edu (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Joan D. Vinge article (long)

Question: Joan Vinge isn't perhaps Vince Vinge writing under a
pseudonym, is she? That would be great. If so, I would like to
applaud her story "True Names". If not, then never mind.

ray
trent@csvax.caltech.edu
rat@caltech.bitnet
...seismo!cit-vax!trent

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 08:13:20 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Joan D. Vinge article (long)

trent@cit-vax.UUCP (Ray Trent) writes:
>Question: Joan Vinge isn't perhaps Vince Vinge writing under a
>pseudonym, is she? That would be great. If so, I would like to
>applaud her story "True Names". If not, then never mind.

Never mind.  Vernor (NOT Vince) Vinge is, however, Joan's
ex-husband.  I've seen them both at more-or-less the same time, so I
don't think they're the same person :->

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 00:19:14 GMT
From: seismo!uw70!uw-june!ewan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: First Science Fiction

A discussion has been going on in rec.arts.drwho about the first
episode people saw and why they became hooked on the good Doctor.
This set me thinking about the first Science Fiction story I read.
This relates to the question that has arisen on several occasions
about what people would recommend to those who wanted to start
reading SF. So people, what SF story did you first read and why did
it hook you to SF? I hesitate to include Fantasy here because (in my
opinion) this includes the Oz stories and the like. (which "real
people", i.e., non-SF readers :-) don't associate with with what we
in this newsgroup mean by SF/Fantasy) But you know what I mean.....

I'll kick off:
The first story that I read that I identify with SF/Fantasy is A
Fall of Moondust, by Arthur C. Clarke when I was about 10. I didn't
realize at the time that this was SF, or in fact for several years
after. In fact it really wasn't until high school when I discovered
the SF section of the school that there whole *lots* of books like
Moondust. Why did I like SF? Well, dunno.  Maybe I just like
make-believe, or exercising my imagination although I didn't start
reading Fantasy until much later. Would I recommend Moondust to
anyone wanting to start reading SF?  A child - yes, An adult?.....
Ah the memories...

Ewan Tempero
University of Washington
UUCP:<hub>!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
Internet:ewan@june.cs.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 23:11:05 GMT
From: seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

> ... So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it
> hook you to SF?

The first SF books that I read were two novels by the British author
Patrick Moore about a base built on the moon jointly by the
Americans and the Russians.  One was called "Caverns of the Moon",
and I don't remember the name of the other one.  They weren't such
great stories but they had pretty good characterization and the idea
of being in space (well sort of) was interesting.

Another book that I read quite early on was a collection of short
stories edited by Arthur C. Clarke called "Time Probe".  I do
recommend the collection to everyone, especially the story about
altering the climate.

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 04:25:08 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart1.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (Class Account)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>This set me thinking about the first Science Fiction story I read.
>This relates to the question that has arisen on several occasions
>about what people would recommend to those who wanted to start
>reading SF. So people, what SF story did you first read and why did
>it hook you to SF? I hesitate to include Fantasy here because (in
>my opinion) this includes the Oz stories and the like. (which "real
>people", i.e., non-SF readers :-) don't associate with with what we
>in this newsgroup mean by SF/Fantasy) But you know what I mean.....

I read a lot of horse stories when I was 7-9 years old, especially
the "Island Stallion" series by Farley.  Farley happened to use
benevolent aliens in one of his books (_The Island Stallion and
Flame_, I think) as a plot device to get two of his main series
characters together.  I was intrigued, and went hunting for other
books with the same kind of thing in them.  My father noticed, and
pointed me at the Foundation Trilogy (which I'd still recommend, but
NOT the two follow-up books!) and at a lot of Andre Norton's SF.
     I'd recommend Norton's works to a young person starting SF,
especially _Moon of Three Rings_ and _Judgement on Janus_.  I don't
know how much they would appeal to an adult, not having re-read them
recently--maybe I'm afraid to spoil the memories.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 09:45:56 GMT
From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook you
>to SF?

Hi! Well my wife got hooked to sf by a book I gave her one night
called "Hothouse" by Brian Aldiss - a mix of weird world tales and
fantasy (oops).  Some of Aldiss' earlier works pretty good for
starters, also Harry Harrison's books are very good to convince
novices to sf.

In by case everything went as I planned - my wife fell in love with
both me and sf (!) and nowadays I take home a lot of sf and she
don't nag.

Kent Sandvik
ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden
PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home
ARPA:  enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:  ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 May 87 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #242
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 May 87 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #242
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 242

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87 11:05:23 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

In the light of the recent discussion on cons, I'd like to bring up
an area I hadn't seen mentioned, and which I've wondered about since
I attended my first con about 20 years ago (but I've only gone to a
few):

It has always struck me that the huckster room is somewhat different
from the rest of the con. Having it is an attraction for the con, of
course, but it is in the interest of the people selling stuff there
to get as many people into that room as possible, not limited to
those officially attending the con. Also, it appears that the people
who are *working* in the huckster room, sitting behind the tables
and selling stuff, get no benefit from the con programming or other
functions, and really should not be required to have con memberships
or pay attendance.  That is, they have to spend all their time
sitting or standing in there, working at selling stuff, so they
can't go to panels, see films, or anything else but work at peddling
their wares. So why should they pay for con benefits they cannot
enjoy? They (or their employer) have already paid for the table
space, after all.

This leads me to think that it would be best if the huckster room
was treated as "external" to the rest of the con. That is, anyone
from off the street can come into the huckster room and buy stuff,
and the people working in that area have no need to have con
memberships or officially "attend" the con. To get from the huckster
room into the con area itself, though, you would have to show your
badge or pass or ticket (assuming the con has part of the facility
blocked off for its exclusive use). The huckster room would be more
of a "co-located flea market" than an integral part of the con.

As far as I could see at the few cons I've attended, this has NOT
been the case. The people working in the huckster room had to buy
memberships or pay admission to the con, in addition to paying for
their tables.  (This might be implemented in that table rent
included one or two con memberships, but that still then
artificially inflated the table rent to cover this.) In addition,
the huckster room was not accessible to the general public; you had
to display a con badge or pass to get into it. This has caused me to
not follow up on the inclination I've had a couple times to rent a
table at a con to try to dispose of my remaining hardback SF and get
a reasonable price for them; if I had to also pay to attend the con
itself, when I would not be able to take advantage of the functions
and facilities I had paid for, it didn't seem worth it.

Maybe I'm wrong. Do cons in general operate the way I have
described, or am I under a misapprehension? Are there cons where the
huckster room is accessible to the general public in addition to the
con attendees?

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@almsa-1.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87  19:30:39 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: conventions, conventions everywhere

I noticed a recent letter that had a listing of sf cons in the
United Kingdom. Since the Boskone incident most fen have been
looking for other cons to go to. There is a notesfile on ARPANet you
can suscribe to. Send a message to:

              ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA      (Rich Zellich)

[Moderator's Note: The rest of this article contained excerpts from
the list mentioned above and is too long to be included in a digest.
The file is available from Rich directly and using the ANONYMOUS
login of FTP.  The file is <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT on SRI-NIC.ARPA.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 87  23:53:24 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: More useless Boskone spew

> under-18-not-allowed (generally): *real* bad idea. I started going
> to cons when I was 13, and like the majority of underage fen never
> caused any more problems than the average adult attendee.

  Truly? I would be interested in evidence to back that. As far as I
saw and heard at the most recent Boskone, the assorted vandalism
incidents were almost solely committed by minors. In general,
though, I'll fall back on my previous comment:
  Minors in this society are neither encouraged, nor indeed legally
permitted, to be without adult supervision for any serious length of
time.  Exception: those states that have emancipation statutes.
Which doesn't apply here; in any event, Massachusetts doesn't have
such a statute.
  What is so revolutionary about this? Okay, let's set up a
hypothetical.  Let's say that Teenager X causes no problems at
Boskone, therefore should be permitted to go. Let's say (for
example) that Teenager X is 13 years old, the same age as the
previous writer at his first con. Let us apply Boskone standards to
mundane life...
  Would you, as a parent of a 13-year-old, allow your child to
attend a weekend-long party, with available alcohol and drugs, with
no curfew, without chaperones or supervision, at a distance of as
much as a few hundred miles away? Do I stretch the bounds of reason
to suggest probably not?
  Not only is NESFA well within its rights here, but they've been
damn careless not to have had an underage policy in effect years
ago. One lawsuit of the size that is typical nowadays and NESFA goes
poof.

  Oh, and on costumes. I knew that they were going to "discourage"
costumes, but this is pretty wild. Gee - the whole idea behind
discouraging costumes was to avoid freaking out the hotel's mundane
clientele. Could a NESFA member enlighten us as to how many hotels
in the Boston area are large enough to hold even a 2000 member
scaled-back con AND *have* mundanes around? C'mon, guys. I could
concede the logic before, but if you have to hit a suburban hotel to
cut back, aren't you going to fill the hotel completely? If so, why
this "We do not want costumes" business? If so, then why so
restrictive an attendance policy? Enquiring minds all want to
know...
  Finally, what does "we do not want" mean? If I dare to show up in
public costumed, will my outfit be torn from my back? Will I be
evicted? My membership revoked? Wouldn't it have been easier to
point out the logic behind the costume "discouragement" instead of
playing schoolmarm and trying to hide the horrible truth that some
SF fans LIKE costumes? (Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!)

Robert G. Traynor
UMass-Boston

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 16:49:40 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>It has always struck me that the huckster room is somewhat
>different from the rest of the con. Having it is an attraction for
>the con, of course, but it is in the interest of the people selling
>stuff there to get as many people into that room as possible, not
>limited to those officially attending the con. Also, it appears
>that the people who are *working* in the huckster room, sitting
>behind the tables and selling stuff, get no benefit from the con
>programming or other functions, and really should not be required
>to have con memberships or pay attendance. . .  This leads me to
>think that it would be best if the huckster room was treated as
>"external" to the rest of the con. That is, anyone from off the
>street can come into the huckster room and buy stuff, and the
>people working in that area have no need to have con memberships or
>officially "attend" the con.  . . . The people working in the
>huckster room had to buy memberships or pay admission to the con,
>in addition to paying for their tables.  (This might be implemented
>in that table rent included one or two con memberships, but that
>still then artificially inflated the table rent to cover this.) . .

I have always thought of cons as gathering places for people with
common interests. A con organizes a group of attractions (dealers
room, art show, masquerade, prog., etc.) for its attendees. That's
why admission is restricted to attendees.

You're right though that this isn't in the best interests of
dealers.  Dealers are at cons to make a profit above the cost of
tables, transportation to the con, accomodations at the con, etc.
One thing a con provides a dealer which he can't get in his own
store (usually) is a large number of captive customers. I wonder if
an open dealers room would increase the dealer's room attendance? I
wonder if it would hurt the cons attendance?

An open dealers room isn't in the best interests of a con though. I
think of the dealers room as a highlight of a con. I would go to
just the dealers room if it were free at some cons. Some cons just
aren't interesting in their programming or subject. A con would
probably lose attendee money if the dealers room were free. Some
cons also pay for space. This might explain the high cost (usually
more than twice) of tables over memberships.  Because there are so
many cons, this may or may not be true.

Because the dealers room isn't open non-stop at cons, the dealers do
have the opportunity to enjoy themselves at evening prog. (if
they're so inclined); such as films, masquerades, con suites, some
art shows, and maybe some programmings. Again it really depends on
the con and the dealer.

I guess I agree and disagree with you. I would like some dealers
rooms open, especially at the cons I don't usually attend or that I
would only attend for one day. But I wouldn't want to hurt a con
financially and stop it from running next year. I kind of think that
an open dealers room would hurt a con in the long term (maybe not
short term). While in the short term this might be good for the
dealers, over the long term the dealers would probably lose out if
cons stop running. I think dealers probably make more money off
attendees at a con who are there because of the interests than
people nearby or off the street.  My thought is that dealers should
want cons to get bigger and do better from year to year. The dealers
at Boskone might be hurting next year because of the lower
attendance.

These are all just my thoughts on the subject and have no factual or
statistical basis. I have attended many cons in the last ten years
and even worked on a few. I once even ran a dealers room. But that's
not something I talk about.

Royal White Jr.
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 02:30:40 GMT
From: hutch@hammer.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>It has always struck me that the huckster room is somewhat
>different from the rest of the con. Having it is an attraction for
>the con, of course, but it is in the interest of the people selling
>stuff there to get as many people into that room as possible, not
>limited to those officially attending the con.  ... [ Why are the
>huxtre rooms limited] ?

I've been drafted as a redshirt at the last two OryCons, and the
reason given to us each time, as to why we needed to exclude
nonmembers from the ENTIRE area which is rented by the convention,
is that the convention has to assume liability for potential
injuries and damages.  Since the people who run the things are
actually not overwhelmingly wealthy, and they have to deal with
insurance companies, they usually end up with a deal where the con
has limited liability but the terms of the insurance policy require
that only "members" are allowed to enter the activity areas.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 14:39:38 GMT
From: dee@cca.cca.com (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: More useless Boskone spew

Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>  Oh, and on costumes. I knew that they were going to "discourage"
>costumes, but this is pretty wild. Gee - the whole idea behind
>discouraging costumes was to avoid freaking out the hotel's mundane
>clientele.

There is no "official" reason for the costume policy in the sense
that no specific justification has been adopted by the Boskone
Co-Chairmen or by NESFA.  However, I believe that it was to reduce
the negative impression on not just mundane hotel guests but also on
hotel management and in addition to make the overall tone of Boskone
less party-like.

>Could a NESFA member enlighten us as to how many hotels in the
>Boston area are large enough to hold even a 2000 member scaled-back
>con AND *have* mundanes around?

For most hotels of any size in urban areas it is very hard to get a
prior commitment of more than 75% of the rooms.  A number of Boston
area hotels have permanent guests that reside in the hotel and
airline contracts that guarantee a number of rooms per night for
airline personnel.

> C'mon, guys. I could concede the logic before, but if you have to
>hit a suburban hotel to cut back, aren't you going to fill the
>hotel completely? If so, why this "We do not want costumes"
>business? If so, then why so restrictive an attendance policy?
>Enquiring minds all want to know...

It appears very unlikely that Boskone will be in a suburban hotel.
It will almost certainly be downtown in a city other than Boston.

>  Finally, what does "we do not want" mean? If I dare to show up in
>public costumed, will my outfit be torn from my back? Will I be
>evicted? My membership revoked?

Probably not.

Donald E. Eastlake, III
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee
P. O. Box N, MIT Branch P. O., Cambridge, MA 02139-0903 USA

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 16:18:44 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

>You're right though that this isn't in the best interests of
>dealers.  Dealers are at cons to make a profit above the cost of
>tables, transportation to the con, accomodations at the con, etc.

I know several people who are hucksters. Most of them are hucksters
because they are fans first and huckstering gives them the chance to
attend more cons.

Some of them make a living from huckstering at SF cons.  Others have
another mundane job to pay the rent.

The bottom line is that many hucksters are in it for the joy of it
and not just the money. None of the hucksters I know are getting
rich.  An open huckster room changes the nature of the clientele and
consequently the business. For some of them, this would make
huckstering less pleasant.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 15:36:43 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>I know several people who are hucksters. Most of them are hucksters
>because they are fans first and huckstering gives them the chance
>to attend more cons.  Some of them make a living from huckstering
>at SF cons.  Others have another mundane job to pay the rent.  The
>bottom line is that many hucksters are in it for the joy of it and
>not just the money. None of the hucksters I know are getting rich.
>An open huckster room changes the nature of the clientele and
>consequently the business. For some of them, this would make
>huckstering less pleasant.

Good point.

I also know several hucksters who are fans and enjoy cons. I've
considered doing it myself when (not if) I accumulate enough stuff.
It's *nice* when a table pays for itself though.

I've know other dealers who can get upset if they don't make a
profit at a con. The businessperson in them. Many of them are fans
too.

Royal White Jr.
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #243
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #243
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 243

Today's Topics:

            Books - Cherryh (2 msgs) & Hogan & Leiber &
                    Zelazny (4 msgs) & Doc Savage (2 msgs) &
                    Alternate Worlds & Robot Names (3 msgs) &
                    First SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 09:56:55 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Morgaine Stories *mild spoilers*
From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM

Some questions about Morgaine...

 I have just read what I could find of this series (_Gate of Ivrel_,
_Well of Shiuan_ and _Fires of Azeroth_) and I have a couple of
questions that someone out there may be able to answer.

First: Are there any more Morgaine Stories?. These are the only ones
I can find at present.

Second: Does anyone know exactly how Morgaine seals the gates that
she passes. She doesn't do it by carrying Changeling unsheathed into
them (as far as I understand, this works, but has the unpleasant
side effect of also destroying the Sword and the bearer :-)). In
_Fires of Azeroth_ there is the suggestion that the gate is closed
from a primary control center, but does this destroy, or merely
deactivate them, and if the gate is just deactivated, what stops
someone reactivating it. Just one functioning gate is enough to put
civilisation in danger apparently.  Anyone know??

Richard Rodway
rwr.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 02:08:40 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Morgaine Stories *mild spoilers*

Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX@Xerox.COM writes:
> I have just read what I could find of this series (_Gate of
>Ivrel_, _Well of Shiuan_ and _Fires of Azeroth_)
>>      ...
> First: Are there any more Morgaine Stories?. These are the only
>ones I can find at present.

   Those are currently it. I have head the CJ is working on a new
story, but I have no idea when to expect it.

Joe Kalash
ucbvax!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 16:13:39 GMT
From: seismo!scgvaxd!trwrb!kraml@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert P. Kraml)
Subject: What is James P. Hogan up to?

I am a fan of James P. Hogan.  I think he combines insightful hard
SF with good imagination to make for interesting and exciting
reading.  Does anyone know if he has written anything in the last
couple of years or is he working on something now?  I think the most
recent book I've read is " Thrice Upon A Time".  Any comments?
Thanx.

Phone: (213) 536-1871
Address: One Space Park
         82/2024
         Redondo Beach CA 90278
seismo!scgvaxd!trwrb!kraml

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87 08:53:50 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Uncollected Leiber

Well, there is at least one Fafhrd and Mouser story as yet not in a
"_Swords_" volume.  It is called (I think) "The Curse of the Smalls
and Stars" and appears in an original anthology called (probably)
_Heroic Visions_.  In it, some enemy curses the Mouser with an
attention to trivial things and Fafhrd with an obsessive interest in
the stars.  To my mind, it was one of the worst stories about the
pair, seeming rather out of character and rather arbitrarily stating
a "new" fact about either Ninguable or Shebella.

(SPOILER - not that it's at all important to the story, but it turns
out that Fafhrd's wizard is a woman).

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 15:54:36 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's "left-out" stories

> gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
>> throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
>>[...] addressed to the cryptic-ness of Zelazny writing in general,
>>I'll refer you to Zelazny's collection "Unicorn Variations".
>>[part of it explains that Zelazny believes] certain things should
>>be *left out* of a story for best effect, [...]
>
> NO NO NO.. Zelzny's comments Unicorn Variations make it quite
> clear that the story presented there, and others of its ilk, are
> stories that he makes up about his characters that have nothing to
> do with the book. They wern't left out or edited out, they were
> never supposed to be included.

Well, I agree totally with Gideon, but I fail to see why anybody
thought that I thought that the left-out-parts were ever intended to
be included.  After all, what is the difference between "should be
left out" and "never supposed to be included"?  Some vague
implication of inclusive intent goes with the first, but not the
second, I suppose.  Sorry, folks, I just wasn't aware of that
implication, if it exists.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 16:59:13 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Bad Zelazny (also Bad in General, and Lensing)

john13@garfield.UUCP writes:
>The character who dressed all in one colour had me wondering if I
>was supposed to know who he was. Many years later, reading the
>e-news, I found out! Leaving these little "time-bombs" scattered
>throughout a story is a technique I like...you can just imagine
>that there *is* no significance or explanation if you like, or
>imagine your own version, or just suspend your disbelief. Then if
>you later find out the answer, that is an extra bit of satisfaction
>you get from the book.
>
>Conversely, which books did you think really telegraphed their plot
>twists or endings? I thought "Lord Valentine's Castle" was the
>worst thing Silverberg

That's a very good point, which reminds me of just why I like
reading Zelazny - although his stories are clearly strewn with
things I'm missing, they still hold together just fine if I just
file them away, and the story is that much richer.  The "oh, so
that's what that was" experience is fun in retrospect.
    As for the telegraphed plot twists, although I don't have any of
his books handy, I can just remember reading the Amber series and
every couple of pages finding something, and saying to myself, "ah,
another little something to be revealed in the final pages!"  But
there just aren't that many final pages.  Later, as a wiser person,
reading through the new series, my thoughts ran more like "ah, I
wonder if I'll ever find out the answer to that - should I write it
down?"  I never did.  Oh, well.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 1987  02:00 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: Cryptic Zelazny -- Jack of Shadows

   As it happens, there is one other Shadowjack short story in the
collection, "The Illustrated Roger Zelazny."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87 13:33:19 EDT
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Wayne Barber)
Subject: Wild Cards

There has been a lot of criticism of Zelazny's writing in the Wild
Cards series, but no one has mentioned one aspect that bothered me
quite a bit. It took me a long time to put my finger on it, but it
finally hit me while reading Aces High: Zelazny copped out in
creating his character.  He seems to have deliberately created Croyd
in such a way that he doesn't have to write for the same character
each time.  Maybe he didn't want to get trapped into creating a
character that he would grow tired of.
    Did this strike anyone else as being the case?  Also, could this
be the reason he never wrote a Thieves' World story?  After all, TW
already had a changing character in Enas Yorl.
    I didn't find Zelazny's writing as unacceptable as some others
have, but I've always thought his bad stuff was better than a lot of
writers' best stuff.  The only thing about Croyd I didn't like was
that he grew up all at once and we never saw any problems of a kid
in an adult body.  He seemed to mentally be the same age as his body
after that first sleep.
    As to the rest of the criticism of Zelazny's writing, I guess I
was willing to believe he was attempting to write down to the level
of comic books :-)

Wayne Barber

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 87 13:24 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Zelazny and Doc Savage

Zelazny isn't the only person to use Doc Savage as a 'guest star' in
a story.  In Dave Stevens' stupendously fabulous 'Rocketeer' comic
book series 'The Rocketeer', it turns out that the rocket pack that
the Rocketeer is using was actually invented by Doc Savage, who
makes a brief appearence, along with Monk Mayfair and another of
Doc's cronies.

Also, in regards to 'Doc Savage: His Apocolyptic Life', one of the
stunning revelations is that Cordwainer Bird (creator of 'The
Starlost') is *in actuality* the nephew of Kent Allard aka The
Shadow.  For an account of Cordwainer Bird's distinguished
achievements, I recommend 'The New York Review of Bird', as told to
Harlan Ellison in 'Strange Wine'.  In this story, Cordwainer Bird's
curious genealogy is revealed which shows that indeed, he too is
related to many colorful 'pulp' heroes.  The unsubstantiated rumors
that Cordwainer Bird is Harlan Ellison are based on their relative
heights, and certain superficial similarities in personality.

** SARCASM ALERT **
Just so I don't get any heated missives informing me that 'No no,
you see Cordwainer Bird *is* Harlan Ellison', I'll save you all the
trouble.  I *know*.  It's a joke, son.

Dan Parmenter

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 13:26:19 GMT
From: jam@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Zelazny and Doc Savage

DANDOM@UMass.BITNET writes:
>Zelazny isn't the only person to use Doc Savage as a 'guest star'
>in a story.  In Dave Stevens' stupendously fabulous 'Rocketeer'
>comic book series 'The Rocketeer', it turns out that the rocket
>pack that the Rocketeer is using was actually invented by Doc
>Savage, who makes a brief appearance, along with Monk Mayfair and
>another of Doc's cronies.

I believe the other crony was none other than that dapper lawyer,
"Ham" Brookes.

A point of information ....

Post : University of Lancaster
       Department of Computing,
       Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87  11:25 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: ALTERNATE WORLDS

There is a third Lord Darcy book besides the two listed in the
alternate worlds list.  I believe it is called -Murder And Magic-.
It was reprinted within the last few years in paperback (as was
-Lord Darcy Investigates-).

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 17:57:37 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: INFO REQUEST: Famous Robot Names

I can't remember names, but I do remember that Clifford D. Simak
often has robots in his stuff:
   the robot butler in ? (_City_?)
   a robot that made burdock wine in a short story in a Damon Knight
      collection (he was a very folksy type robot)

Pohl's robots in _Midas Touch_

Niven's Kendy (for the State) - more a cyborg ship, in
   _The Integral Trees_
   _The Smoke Ring_

Are we counting cyborgs?

There was the mechanical chess player from the 1800s. Dunno' if he
had a name.

Zelazny's golem from _Call me Conrad_ (_This Immortal_)

Kornbluth's in  _Robots Have no Tails_ (a collection, and I can't
remember the robot's name, dammit)

This is dumb! I can remember the robots, but not their names! Maybe
someone else can supply names.

Scott Bayes
hpfcla!bayes

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1987 09:38 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Famous Robot Names

Here is an extract from the Dramatis Personae in the Oxford
University Paper back Edition of RUR (1969, UK):
MARIUS, A Robot
SULLA, A Robotess
RADIUS, A Robot
PRIMUS, A Robot
HELENA, A Robotess

Of these Primus and Helena are most notable because at the end of
the play they develope the human characteristics of sexuality and
love and are sent out as the new Adam and Eve.

Helena, by the way is also the name of a human character in the
play.

Dick Botting
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
Comp Sci, CSUSB, 5500 State Univ Pkwy, San Bernardino, CA 92407
(714) 887-7368

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 01:25:39 GMT
From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin)
Subject: Re: Famous Robot Names

I know this is perfectly obvious, and you'll hit yourselves for not
thinking of it or mentioning it ---- But, Marvin the paranoid
android from "The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy" (Douglas Adams).

Of course unless you do not want to name a computer after a robot
that is depressed and has a habit of causing massive failure in any
computer it talks to.  Then its understandable your deletions.

Just trying to help,
marcus @ur-cvsvax

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 16:02:19 GMT
From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook you
>to SF?

I was in elementary school and the teacher read us the first book of
John Christopher's _White Mountain_ trilogy. I read the second two
books on my own, liked them a lot, asked my sisters what else I
could read (I forget what they said), and that was that.

Lauri Howard
howard@ames-pioneer.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 06:08:48 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Anybody remember a series of stories about a moonman named Matt
Mooney?  If it helps, he had a raygun (the instructions on the side
said "Shake before using").  That might not have been my first sf
book, but it was one of them.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 03:07:47 GMT
From: seismo!utai!gpu.utcs.toronto.edu!gbs@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: First SF/F

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>A discussion has been going on in rec.arts.drwho about the first
>episode people saw and why they became hooked on the good Doctor.
>This set me thinking about the first Science Fiction story I read.
>This relates to the question that has arisen on several occasions
>about what people would recommend to those who wanted to start
>reading SF. So people, what SF story did you first read and why did
>it hook you to SF? ... [munch]

Hmmm, tricky.. I think I can actually trace my love of SF/F to my
early childhood affinity for greek and roman mythology, I had (still
have *somewhere*) a thick illustrated children's book covering
pretty much all of the subject. These were my bedtime stories (Along
with the poetry of Blake..I grew up with 2 English profs for
parents) throughout my earliest years, and one of my first sources
of reading matter.  Granted ancient Greek/Roman myths are not
normally considered SF, but as many postings have noted recently
(esp that long essay by Joan Vinge) they form a powerful set of base
material for this (and many) genres.  From this, I recall among my
earliest reading (aside from Pooh and Paddington - good fantasy in
their own right) comes _A_Wrinkle_In_Time_ Heinlein (*NOT* his
juveniles though, I still haven't read most of those) Asimov and
Bradbury (I'm at about age 10 now)

The problem here is that this is from childhood up, I recall many
Heinleins fondly that didn't survive the rereading.  If I were to be
asked to recomend a starting point for an adult (whatever THAT is
:-) I would probably recommend Ellison short stories, more "social
commentary/ makes you think" types of work.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 May 87 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #244
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 87 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #244
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 244

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Star Trek (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 12:49:21 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG - responses to basic information

ABC@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says:
>>Okay, about a week ago, I posted (with much help) a rundown on
>>Star Trek: The Next Generation (STTNG).
>>
>>Since then I've seen several (even before then I saw some) which
>>look at a four line character description and say "This is a
>>stupid character, this series is going to stink, what a flop, it's
>>just like <fill in name of least favorite sf tv series> and we ALL
>>know how bad that is."
>
>     Just today I figured out, based on information in the
>_Readers_ _Digest_Almanac_and_Yearbook_, that *over half* the
>population of the Earth lives in the region of Pakistan, India,
>Bangladesh, China, Japan, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, and the
>Philippines (sp?).  Many more live in the Middle East and Africa.
>And *none* of these peoples were included in the list of
>regulars-to-be-cast, although that list is as long as the complete
>list of all regulars on the original ST.  Also, the original ST
>*did* include an Oriental and and African, even though they were
>both minor characters.
>     The number of people who are generally thought to have "sex
>appeal" is even smaller than the number who live in Europe and
>America.  And it isn't really necessary for everyone to have "sex
>appeal" in order to be liked or respected.  So why is this a
>prerequisite for practically all of the officers on the Enterprise?
>This would make sense if the new series was to be soft-core porn,
>but I had *hoped* that it would be mostly serious drama and/or
>intelligent humor (and not funny only when the token black who
>"must also be able to do comedy well" is onscreen).
>     My previous criticisms of the casting still stand.

Sorry I quoted so much, but I wanted all the points made to be
clear.

Apparently, you are more interested in "politically correct" Star
Trek than having any Star Trek at all.  Remember at all times that
the show has to succeed in 80+ percent white, socially conservative
America.

The people who want reality so much, the make shows like Dallas and
Dynasty hits.  No matter how far Star Trek goes toward telling
stories that go beyond 95% of what's on TV today, someone will
always complain that's not far enough.  The show IS multi ethnic, it
IS multi racial, it IS multi sexual, if it doesn't meet your
standards of political correctness I am sorry, I am glad Roddenberry
is out there trying.

The following is a quote from Chapter 1, Line 1 of The Making of
Star Trek, showing that GR realizes the realities even if you do
not.

"The television writer-producer faces an almost impossible task when
he attempts to create and produce a quality tv series.  Assuming he
conceived a program of such meaning and importance that it could
ultimately change the face of America, he probably could not get it
on the air or keep it there!"

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 07:32 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST:Kahn's out there somewhere
Cc: <KUCHAR%BUASTA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Thomas A. Kuchar)

I'll go along with the idea the Kahn has to be busy doing something
during the 1986 sequence of STIV.  I just think, having 10 years yet
to build up to a eugenics war, that it doesn't have to be something
so overwhelmingly obvious that it would be apparent to the casual
time traveler.  Of course, it should be obvious to newspaper reading
ST fans since he'd be busy gathering followers and building his
power base.  But, perhaps he started out under another name.

Anyone who follows the news more closely than I have a candidate?

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 13:59 EDT
From: <KUCHAR%BUASTA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Thomas A. Kuchar)
Subject: More Wrath of Khan

This is in response to: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) who
responded to my letter:

>From: <KUCHAR%BUASTA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Thomas A. Kuchar)
>> But what disturbs me more about STIV is this time travel stuff.
>> The Earth that Kirk and company visited in 1986 has no relation
>> to the Earth that the TV series speculated would exist. In the
>> episode `Space Seed' A eugenics war is about to occur in ten
>> years, yet there is no hint of such a war -- only the current
>> struggle between the US and USSR. In 1986 Kahn should be walking
>> around trying at least to acquire a base of operations in
>> preparation for the the war. (He should be at least 25 by now!)

>Not in the least.
>
>Just because no mention is made of Khan [note spelling] in
>present-day in STAR TREK IV, he doesn't exist? Yes, he's there
>somewhere in Asia, building his power base, waiting till the time
>is right to start his conquest. But that's totally irrelevant to
>the film's story. They could have had a random tv broadcast or
>newspaper mention Khan by name in relation to some event, but that
>would have been totally gratuitous, nothing more than a "nudge
>nudege wink wink" aimed at the Trekkies in the audience. There was
>no reason within the context of the story that we should've been
>given a detailed rundown of the complete geopolitical situation.
>
>However, I will grant you that there doesn't seem to be any
>indication in the film that present-day Earth is advanced enough
>for a planet-wide eugenics program to be taking place (Khan was
>supposed to have been a product of such a program, so it would have
>had to be started no later than the early 70's). It would have been
>more consistent for present-day ST Earth to be more advanced than
>our own in the biological sciences.

  My point was missed entirely.  According to `Space Seed' Khan and
the other super men and women had already been in power by 1992.
Apparently this was the start the Eugenics Wars, when these
`tyrants' fought among themselves. They were defeated and left Earth
on the Botany Bay in 1996.

I referred specifically to Khan, because he is the only super man
named in `Space Seed'. But there were at least twenty others who
were coming to power simultaneously. They were attempting to take
over the whole world as well, not just Asia. But this was not
apparent in ST IV.  The Enterprise crew could not move freely
through society if this were happening.  Wars and revolutions tend
to make life a little difficult.  After all, Khan himself said that
one man would have ruled the world. Some aside, some mention in ST
IV would have been sufficient.  Since they showed some headlines on
newspaper concerning the nuclear arms negotiations, why not refer to
Khan instead.

As this for being irrelevant -- Khan's actions resulted in Kirk's
mutiny as well as Spock's confusing behavior and lack of memory
(both to be resolved in ST IV).

Anyway, if he disagrees with me, he's better off supporting his
arguments by not agreeing with me in the next paragraph.

Also, no one has seemed to pick up my jest concerning misspelling
Khan's name- `Kahn' is a brand of hot dog (a weiner). Where's
everbody's sense of humor?

Tom
KUCHAR@BUASTA

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 01:04:12 GMT
From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: ST:TNG - responses to basic information

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) says:
>Apparently, you are more interested in "politically correct" Star
>Trek than having any Star Trek at all.  Remember at all times that
>the show has to succeed in 80+ percent white, socially conservative
>America.

     There are two or three points which I would like to clarify,
and then I'll be finished with this discussion.
     I don't give a ---- about whether *anything* is "politically
correct," I'd rather not even be caught within ten miles of
"political correctness."  I'd *like* to say that what I'm concerned
about is fairness, but that would be neither entirely convincing nor
entirely true.  My real concern is realism.
     Is it realistic to think that almost all the officers of the
Enterprise would just *happen* to be American whites, with one black
and one or two Europeans?  When one of your basic assumptions is
that the whole Earth has been united for centuries?  Does Starfleet
have really pressing reasons for such segregation?  Of course they
don't!  Then how can we be expected to try to believe in it?
     Aside from the reference to "political correctness," what you
said was quite true.  I don't want to see a new Star Trek series if
it's going to cut out its own guts (or brains) before it's even gone
on the air.  I'd rather see it as a low-budget production on PBS
(complete with terrible special effects) if that's the only place
where artistic freedom is respected.  If there's no artistic freedom
in the American entertainment establishment, then I'm going to rebel
by ignoring it.
     A last word on risk-taking: even in "entertainment," the usual
rule is "nothing ventured, nothing gained."

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 11:52:04 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!hwee!sutherla@RUTGERS.EDU (I. Sutherland)
Subject: TVH-STIV more spoilers( and queries)

    Since Trek spoilers seem to be the in thing here's one that I
noticed.

    After beaming up the whales Kirk asks Sulu to go to warp speed.
Kirk then goes with the cetacean biologist to see the whales, has a
few words with her and then returns to the bridge when the
turbulence begins.
    Yet the Bird of Prey is still pulling away from a large Earth.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that warp speed
covered distance slightly faster than a few thousand miles in over a
minute.

    Also, why is the new Enterprise a Constitution Class ship? I
thought that they were obsolete.

Iain Sutherland

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 11:44:54 GMT
From: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: another ST loose end

ccastkv@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Keith Vaglienti) writes:
> The first time we find out that Klingons and Romulans are
> collaborating on ship design is in "The Enterprise Incident" in
> which the Enterprise enters Romulan space and is immediately
> confronted by three Romulan ships built using what are obviously
> Klingon D-7 hulls.

Not just hulls! I have a model D-7 which I wanted to make Romulan,
so when this episode was repeated I watched closely to get Romulan
colours and insignia.A waste of effort. The three "Romulan" ships
were in Klingon colours - complete with the Klingon insignia!

As to ST III, I read somewhere that the original intention was to
use Romulans, hence the Romulan style ship and name. After the
sequences with the model ships had been made, it was decided to use
Klingons instead, but to keep the Bird of Prey. The story
explanation, I believe, is that the Klingons stole it.

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 04:12:34 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: S&S Audio starts Star Trek Series

According to Publisher's Weekly (May 8) Simon & Schuster Audio is
launching a new Star Trek Audio series.  It will initially be four
cassettes, two in September and two in the spring, and may be turned
into a continuing series depending on sales.

In September they'll publish the audio adaptation of Star Trek IV:
The Voyage Home (by Vonda McIntyre) and Strangers from the Sky (by
Margaret Wander Bonanno), which will be published in paperback in
July.  For spring the two titles are Web of the Romulans and
Enterprise, both by McIntyre.

The adaptations will be read by actor George Takei with Leonard
Nimoy reading brief passages, primarily ship log entries.

If the series continues, titles currently optioned for audio
adaptation include: The Entropy Effect and the three Movie tie-ins.
The audio series joins the various other Star Trek tie-ins: 35
Pocket book titles, two Simon & Schuster computer games, four movies
and a host of TV show videocassettes.

They didn't print pricing information, but they did point out that
the cost of performers raised breakeven by about 50%.  Whether they
decide to deal with this by raising price (normal cassettes are in
the $12-15 range) or higher hoped-for volumes (or likely a
combination) isn't known yet.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 87 10:18 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST:The New Generation

On the complaints posted recently that the cast of TNG is not a
valid representation of either the racial or sex appeal mix of
Earth:

Obviously, there are some things about the Eugenics Wars that were
not revealed in "Space Seed."  As these supermen took over the
world, they instituted mass serilization of "undesirables"--all
those whom Hollywood producers would not cast in leading roles of tv
series--the Orientals, the Blacks, the fat and the ugly.

So, by the time of the TNG, or ST, for that matter, Blacks and
Orientals are rare and fat and ugly people are extinct.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 08:29:18 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Roll call on the new Enterprise

[This is reprinted from The Associated Press without permission]

Los Angeles - Capt. James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock will give way to a
blind lieutenant, a telepathic half-human, a super-strong android,
and a brainy 15-year-old when Paramount Network Television launches
"Star Trek: The Next Generation."

On Firday, Executive Producer Gene Roddenberry announced the cast
for the show, including actors Patrick Stewart, Jonathan Frakes and
LeVar Burton.

Like their predecessors, William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, they
will be venturing where no man has gone before - this time in the
24th century instead of the 22nd.

A new generation of starship also will be featured in the series,
but it will be named for its beloved predecessor, the Enterprise.

The series is to make its debut Oct. 3 and 4 with a two-hour pilot
called "Encounter at Farpoint," written by Rodenberry and D.C.
Fontana.

The original "Star Trek" series, televised by NBC from September
1966 to September 1969, broke new ground for science-fiction
entertainment and won a devoted following of fans, known as
"Trekkies."

The old show, which still is being rerun in many areas, also spawned
four "Star Trek" movies, a cartoon series, and books and other
publications.

The new series has been sold in more than 150 markets, representing
90 percent of the U.S. viewing households, Paramount said.

The commander of the new Enterprise, Jean-Luc Pikard, is to be
played by Stewart, a former Royal Shakespeare Company member who is
also a veteran of BBC television.  Stewart most recently appeared in
the films "Excalibur" and "Dune."

Jonathon Frakes is to take the helm as second-in-command William
"No. One" Riker.  Frakes who most recently starred in the television
movie "The Nutcracker" and the TV miniseries "North and South."  His
other credits include recurring roles on television's "Falcon
Crest," "The Doctors," "Bare Essence," and "Paper Dolls."

LeVar Burtun has been cast as the blind Lt. (j.g.) Geordi LaForge,
who "sees" through the use of a prosthetic device worn over his
eyes.  Burton won critical acclaim for his portrayal of the young
Kunte Kinte in the TV miniseries "Roots" and has been featured in
several television  movies including "The Guyana Tragedy: The Story
of Jim Jones."

Also included in the cast are:
Wil Wheaton, who portrayed Gordie in the film "Stand by Me," is cast
as Wesley "Wes" Crusher, the brilliant 15-year-old son of one Dr.
Crusher.

Marina Sirtis, featured in the films "Death Wish III," "Blind Date,"
and "The Wicked Lady," is to portray Lt. Deanna Troi, a half-human,
half-"betazoid" counselor with telepathic ability.

Brent Spiner is to play Lt. Cmdr. Data, an android with superior
strength and memory.  Spiner has appeared on "Night Court,"
"Cheers," "The Twilight Zone," and "Hill Street Blues."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 May 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #245
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 87 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #245
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 245

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Ellison (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 17:29:03 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Blood's A Rover

Do any of you know if Harlan Ellison's novel _Blood's A Rover_ has,
in fact, been published? If so, by whom, and how I can get a copy of
it?  (For those of you who enjoy these things, Jane Yolen named a
dragon Blood's A Rover in one of her novels about dragons, slaves,
and pit fighting that I don't remember the name of.)

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 02:14:34 GMT
From: unisoft!kalash@rutgers.edu (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Blood's A Rover

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>Do any of you know if Harlan Ellison's novel _Blood's A Rover_ has,
>in fact, been published?

   It has not been published (although I once saw a cover proof for
the book, done by Corben no less). From what I heard, Ellison was
upset at Ace for non-payment of royalties, and used the advance for
"Blood's A Rover" to "square" accounts. I make no guarantee that
this is the truth, but came from a reasonable source (but some 7
years old).

Joe Kalash
ucbvax!unisoft!kalash
ucbvax!kalash
unisoft!kalash@berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 14:35:08 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@rutgers.edu (Royal White)
Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR

Jerry Boyajian writes:
> From: netxcom!rwhite  (Royal White, Jr.)
>> If Harlan Ellison (or any other writer) feels that their ideas
>> are being plagerized, they have every right to sue....And if
>> Harlan is the only writer smart enough to hire a lawyer and brave
>> enough to go to court, he deserves whatever he can get.
> This is true, *but*, I still think that Ellison is too
> trigger-happy.

I won't disagree with you but I prefer to think of him as perhaps
overly zealous in his righteous indignation. Now that sounds more
like Harlan.

> Now with the "Brillo" case, he was definitely in the right.  This
> was a cut and dried case of plagiarism.  I don't think that THE
> TERMINATOR is close enough to Ellison's OUTER LIMITS teleplays to
> make for a solid case against the film.

I also agree the cases aren't as *obviously* (oh that word again)
clear cut or similiar.

>> If a studio or network feels there was no plagiarism, they have
>> every opportunity to prove it in court.
> Say what? As the defendents, they don't have to prove *anything*.
> It's up to the plaintiffs to prove the studio *did* plagiarize.
> Remember "innocent until proven guilty"?

Exactly, by forcing Harlan and company to *prove* their case, the
studio will have *proven* themselves innocent or guilty. The studio
*proves* themselves innocent by winning the case.

> *Perhaps* they *did* settle because Cameron realized that
> Ellison's teleplays *were* where the ideas came from. But still,
> the fact that they settled out of court isn't *necessarily* an
> admission of guilt. For one, Cameron could very well have never
> seen those OUTER LIMITS episodes and came up with the TERMINATOR
> concept independently, but if Ellison's lawyer can put up a
> convincing case, and Cameron's lawyer can't "prove" that the idea
> was derived independently, then Cameron loses, regardless of the
> truth of the matter. For two, they might well have decided it was
> cheaper to settle out of court than to fight the case for months
> or possibly years (I doubt that Ellison would ever voluntarily
> throw in the towel).

I can't argue with your line of reasoning. But I will add just a
couple of comments (these are my opinions and not statements of
fact.) Harlan Ellison is not stupid. Harlan Ellison is not rich.  If
Harlan sues a studio, I bet he has a good case. He isn't going to
waste a lot of time and money (on court and lawyer fees) on a
completely lost cause. (Unless perhaps something I don't know about
happened.) If the studio Harlan is suing settles out of court in
Harlan's favor, I think they were conceding his case was valid.

I am not making broad generalizations about our justice system,
which so several people are attributing to me. I am not saying (and
have never said) EVERY out of court settlement implies INNOCENCE or
GUILT. I am not saying anything about JUSTICE favoring anyone.

> Regardless of the ideal, Justice favors the rich and persistent.

I think Harlan is persistent not rich. And I don't think Justice
favors him that much. I think Harlan has worked for what he has
gotten. If anything, Justice would favor a rich studio or network.

Royal White Jr.
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 04:29:27 GMT
From: mtune!homxc!del@RUTGERS.EDU (D.LEASURE)
Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
> Once before in this newsgroup I asked if anybody had more facts
> than those freely available to the public (watch the two episodes,
> hear that Ellison sued and settled), and got no response.

Having heard Ellison speak on this subject at Brookdale College, I
can add the following "facts:"

1) The makers of the Terminator openly (and brashly) admitted to the
borrowing of material from the outsider episode.

2) The opening scenes are similar if not identical to the written
account.

My memory's a little fuzzy, but I feel that I should stick up for
someone who's done a lot of good for the field.

David E. Leasure
HR 59253
2F-239 x5307
homxc!del

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 18:48:00 GMT
From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Blood's A Rover

kalash@unisoft.UUCP (Joe Kalash) writes:
> williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>>Do any of you know if Harlan Ellison's novel _Blood's A Rover_
>>has, in fact, been published?
>
> It has not been published (although I once saw a cover proof for
> the book, done by Corben no less). From what I heard, Ellison was
> upset at Ace for non-payment of royalties, and used the advance
> for "Blood's A Rover" to "square" accounts. I make no guarantee
> that this is the truth, but came from a reasonable source (but
> some 7 years old).

  I have a vague recollection of having seen this mentioned in a
list of forthcoming works recently, but I'm not sure whether it was
going to be straight text, or if it was some sort of visual
adaptation.  I try to keep an eye on both forthcoming books and
comics/graphic novels, and I can't think now where I saw it.
However, I do definitely recall that the announcement described
"Blood's a Rover" as having been previously published only in a very
limited quantity, as a chapbook, or something of the sort.  I'll try
to find the reference, but can't guarantee it.

   Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the
story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthalogy?  It was originally
supposed to come out years ago, (around 1980, I think), but got held
up by something.  Then about six months ago, I saw a note in SF
Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very soon,
and nothing since.  Anybody got the scoop?

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 20:11:10 GMT
From: ambar@athena.mit.edu (Jean Marie Diaz)
Subject: Re: Ellison on Tape

kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>There's also a tape of Ellison reading "I'm Looking for Kadak" which
>I highly recommend.  He reads it with a great deal of expression
>which makes the dry humor of the story even funnier.  I don't know
>if it's still available or not, though.  I bought my copy in 1980
>at Noreascon Two, and suspect it was probably available only
>through specialty stores, etc.

...but what *I'm* waiting for is Ellison reading "How's the Night
Life on Cissalda?"  I suspect that his rendition would be faster,
funnier, and more vicious than that of a friend of mine (who had a
group of people at a party howling until their ribs hurt...)  This I
want to hear...

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 21:20:20 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: The Last Dangerous Visions

kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the
>story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthalogy?  It was originally
>supposed to come out years ago (around 1980, I think), but got held
>up by something. Then about six months ago, I saw a note in SF
>Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very soon,
>and nothing since.  Anybody got the scoop?

I saw Ellison speak when he was Guest of Honor at the 1980 Worldcon.
Then, he said that TLDV, which was already well behind schedule,
would be out 'real soon, now, so stop pushing me!' No word since.
Stories were bought for it, and a friend of mine claims to have seen
the proofs lying around Ellison's house (on his stairway, actually).
I've stopped getting my hopes up, though. It will come out when it
comes out.

But if anyone has *concrete* information (unfortunately, the SF
Chronicle isn't concrete, and neither is Ellison, apparently; I
mean, if you've *seen a copy* or something), let me know! Drool.

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 21:39:18 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Blood's A Rover

>Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the
>story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthalogy?  It was originally
>supposed to come out years ago, (around 1980, I think), but got
>held up by something.  Then about six months ago, I saw a note in
>SF Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very
>soon, and nothing since.  Anybody got the scoop?

It was supposed to have gone to the publisher in manuscript form
last August.  Since it takes 12-18 months to get a manuscript into
print (and possibly more in this case, because of the scope of the
project) I'd say the earliest we'd see it is Christmas this year,
and next year's spring list would be most likely.  Assuming it
really did go to publisher in august.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 87 23:10:59 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!rgm@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Ellison vs The Terminator

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>> It is my understanding that Harlan Ellison sued or threatened to
>> sue the makers of TERMINATOR for plagiarism, [...]
>
>extremely little I know, I'd say Ellison simply sicced his "killer
>lawyer" on a target that happened to have a lot of money and lined
>his pockets, pure and simple.  Certainly, Ellison's fiction has
>borrowed far

"extremely little.." key phrase.
Ellison was asked about that when he spoke here a couple of months
ago. The similarities were not only pointed out to him by several
people (Friends of his) but one of the people working on the set
asked the writer where he got the idea "Oh, I'm just ripping off
some old Ellison stuff" was the answer.  Ellison stated that he
would have gladly (and has in the past) given full permission, no
charge, if he had been asked first. His first request was simply
"add a line in the credits to the effect of: the creators wish to
acknowledge the work of Harlan Ellison" But the guy refused, rudely
to boot.  The legal stuff only started after Ellison had tried to be
civil and was rudely rebuffed and threatened, so he sued the bastard.
Had there not been a good case the guy would never have settled out
of court.  Ellison is loaded (his phrase) he makes no bones about it
and doesn't need or like to make money by sueing people, he's just
really touchy about being copied WITHOUT being acknowledged, hes had
many bad experiences in the past with unscruplious publishers and
film makers, if you want I have more stories from that evening, If
people are realy interested I can post a couple.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@gpu.utcs.UUCP
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 15:50:31 GMT
From: sjc@arthur.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Subject: Re: Ellison and THE TERMINATOR

rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes:
>>At any rate, as others have said, they settled
>>out of court to Ellison's satisfaction.
>Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's
>satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty!

No!!!  Why must an out of court settlement be regarded as an
admission of guilt?  Granted, you or I might feel that it was enough
of a matter of principal to fight it all the way (as Harlan probably
did).  But a major motion picture studio deals mostly in ECONOMIC
terms.  Might you think that the whole court battle, along with
negative publicity, might have cost them more in terms of $$ than
they could hope to recoup?  Since they were the defendants, even
being found not guilty wouldn't have made them any money...

In short, while it may well be true that they did feel themselves
guilty of plagi...plajer...copying, their out of court settlement in
no way proves that to be the case!

Steve Chapin
ARPA:  sjc@gwen.cs.purdue.edu
UUCP:  ...!purdue!sjc

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 04:33:38 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Ellison on Tape

kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>ranjit@atlantis.berkeley.edu (Ranjit Bhatnagar) writes:
>> I recently purchased the Waldentapes edition of Harlan Ellison
>> reading his "A Boy and His Dog" and "'Repent, Harlequin,' Said
>> the Ticktockman."  I strongly recommend this and any other tapes
>> of
> [edit edit burp..]
>or not, though.  I bought my copy in 1980 at Noreascon Two, and
>suspect it was probably available only through specialty stores,
>etc.

There is a "Harlan Ellison Record Club" where a selected group of
people (ie selected by the fact that they have heard of it) Can
order recordings as they are produced of Ellison, by Ellison, from
Ellison, the information about it is in the preface to an article
reprinted in "An Edge in My Voice" (A collection of recent articles
from a column of the same name- Similar to his famous "the (other)
Glass Teat" - I highly recomend it) If there are enough of you out
there without a copy to look this info up in - shame on you, no
seriously, ask and I'll post.  These recordings are, generally, only
available directly from Ellison, he was selling the "Boy / Repent"
tape here in Toronto when he was here a few months ago.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 04:38:57 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Ellison vs rec.arts.sf-lovers

rwhite@netxcom.UUCP (Royal White) writes:
>I think Harlan is persistent not rich. And I don't think Justice

Right. Wrong. Persistant is an understatement (anyone heard the dead
gopher story?) As for rich, to quote him "loaded"

>favors him that much. I think Harlan has worked for what he has
>gotten. If anything, Justice would favor a rich studio or network.

Yes. Probably.- or at any rate they have bigger resourses.

As I think I said when this started, Ellison had a witness ( someone
on the set during filming) to the fact that when asked "where did
the idea come from" the writer/director said "Oh, I'm just ripping
off some old Ellison Outer limits scripts" (or something close)
that's why it didn't make court, the studio didn't stand a chance.
Ellison's origional request was simply to be given a line in the
credits to the effect of "..would like to acknowledge the works of
Harlan Ellison" This was rudely rejected by the writer, a lawsuit
was NOT his first course of action, and money was NOT his initial
objective.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 May 87 1025-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #246
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 87 1025-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #246
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 246

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 06:02:52 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"
>Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately),
>that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL.  For those of you
>that would like to defend that premise, please explain this excerpt
>from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't think it is
>out of context): [quote removed for brevity]

   The quote is from Jill Boardman, not one of the characters
usually identified as Heinlein's "mouthpiece" (they are Mike and
Jubal), and she makes clear she is only guessing Mike would reject
homosexuals; she states specifically that "she was not sure that
Mike would refuse a pass". It's dangerous enough to attribute the
protagonists' attitudes to RAH - doing this with a minor character
is entirely speculative.
   Overall, I've always felt RAH had a problem writing about sex.
It's not his intellectual attitudes that are the problem, though. It
seems to be more of an emotional thing. SIASL preaches very liberal,
free attitudes toward sexuality, yet the "bedroom scenes", such as
they were, give the impression that RAH was a bit shamed-faced to be
writing them, as if he felt himself peeking through the keyhole into
his characters' bedrooms. In later books he seemed to recognize this
problem, and stuck more to having his characters simply talk about
sex, and leave more of the practise offstage.
   I think this shyness can be confusing when attempting to dissect
RAH's attitudes towards sex. The intellectual hesitancy he shows
about homosexuality in SIASL disappears in later books, but the
contrast between his characters' words and RAH's way of writing sex
scenes is still there, confusing any effort to discern his sexual
biases.

>The rough translation as I see it?  We don't have to worry about
>homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with
>the rest of the social degenerates.

   Simply untrue. SIASL just doesn't address the question of
homosexuality head on. Your quote is one of the few mentions of it
made in the book, and it's most ambiguous as a barometer of RAH's
attitudes. There is also a strong suggestion of polymorphous
sexuality within Mike's church that contradicts your hypothesis, and
definite disdain for the kind of homophobia which runs in fear from
the thought of men simply kissing or caressing one another. My own
guess is that we see RAH's attitudes undergoing evolution in this
book. His later novels often do address this issue directly, and
leave no doubt that RAH's not in the gay-bashing business.

>And the line about "very female women"?!!!  Gag!  What other kinds
>are there?  Heinlein makes me want to puke.

   This is silly. The context of the quote makes it very clear that,
in this instance, "very female women" translates to exclusively
heterosexual women, just as "masculine men" was used as an antonym
for homosexuals. To take offense at this, in context, requires
effort, I should think. And, again, the quote is from "Jill
Boardman", not Robert A. Heinlein. Jill is portrayed as a character
being "brought around" in her sexual attitudes by Mike, moving from
attitudes normal to her culture, to the greater sexuality of Mike's
religion.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 10:27:07 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
> (Jill wasn't sure how far this went; she had explained
> homosexuality, after Mike had read about it and failed to grok --
> and had given him rules for avoiding passes; she knew that Mike,
> pretty as he was, would attract such.
>
> The rough translation as I see it?  We don't have to worry about
> homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with
> the rest of the social degenerates.

On the other hand if you read it as mike not understanding the
prevailing cultural reaction to homosexuality and jill's concern
that she was failing in her attempt to socialize mike because he
didn't see a distinction between homo/hetro-sexuality, it rings a
differnt chime maybe?

I seem to recall one or two other novels where Heinlein, while not
being in favor of homosexuality, deals sympathetically with the
individuals and is more critcial about society's reactions to
individuals doing what they please.

Sorry, your interpretation is for the birds...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 18:06:56 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

> k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold)
> SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"
>
> Several people have written (both on the net and to me privately),
> that Heinlein did take on homophobia in SIASL.  For those of you
> that would like to defend that premise, please explain this
> excerpt from Chapter 29 (p. 303 in my edition) (and no, I don't
> think it is out of context):

As an aside, for those who would like to advance the premise that
Heinlein did NOT take on homophobia in SIASL, please explain Jubal's
advice to whozizface regarding his (whoziz's) reaction to Mike's
sexual advances.

First of all Kathy seems to be equating what *Jill* thinks with what
*Heinlein* thinks.  This is considerably less tenable than equating
what Jubal thinks with what Heinlein thinks, and even this is not as
tenable as it might seem.

Now, examining what is said here, we find that Jill is afraid that
Mike will *NOT* turn down a homosexual advance.  That is, she is
explicitly worried that homophobia IS NOT A NATURAL (or "given")
STATE.  She is worried that she must somehow CONVINCE Mike to be a
homophobe, because she distrusts his natural tendencies, and
homosexuality is a social embarrassment she would rather not deal
with.  Upon further reflection, she decides that she has nothing to
worry about, because all his contacts have been conditioned to be
homophobic, and the exceptions have been so traumatized by society
that Mike will probably "grok a wrongness" in them... so nothing to
worry about.

The message is very strong here.  Homophobia is a conditioned state,
not natural at all.  And any consequences of homosexual activity are
from society, not a result of the act itself.  Note that I have no
way of knowing that that is what Heinlein meant by this passage.
But I CAN say that that's the way I read it when I read the book.

As to:

> [...] the line about "very female women"?!!!  Gag!  What other
> kinds are there?

I took this to mean that they had been heavily socialized to
"feminine" roles, and that the "very masculine men" had been
socialized to "masculine" roles.  As opposed to Mike, who, lacking
such socialization, was "androgynous".  It is very clear, I think.
We are looking at a situation where a normal human (Mike) is trying
to be crammed into a pre-stamped role, dictated by a society, not by
nature.  And all this is from the viewpoint of Jill, who at this
time still thinks that the conventions of her society are laws of
nature.  Heinlien is talking about what Jill thinks of the
situation... not how the situation "really is", nor what Heinlein
himself thinks of it.

> Heinlein makes me want to puke.

Well, there are times when Heinlein makes me nauseous, too.  The
first few pages of "The Number of the Beast", for one example among
many where the sexual behavior of two of the main characters strikes
me as...  well... let's just say "silly".  Silly to the point of
nausea, mind you.  But I usually just repress my gag reflex and get
on with the story, and avoid execrating Heinlein for being
Politically Incorrect.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 19:37:53 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>The rough translation as I see it?  We don't have to worry about
>homosexuality, because all homosexuals would be screened out with
>the rest of the social degenerates.
>
>And the line about "very female women"?!!!  Gag!  What other kinds
>are there?  Heinlein makes me want to puke.

The problem is that you see charcters in a novel as mouthpieces for
Heinlein's views.  They aren't people in thier own right, and they
aren't allowed to change and grow.  Jill is one of the two
characters whose prudish attitudes changes the most throughout the
novel.  Of course, you will never see that if you demand that Jill
either start out as the feminist model of female hero, or
automatically become enlightened between chapters N and N+1.

As for the ``very female women'' -- how many people do you know that
divides them into ``butch'' and ``fem''?  I guess even in the
enlightened feminist lesbian community there are people who make the
same distinction.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 00:40:10 GMT
From: 6065833@pucc.princeton.edu (Una Smith)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU  writes:
[other peoples comments deleted]
[some stuff deleted]
>Heinlein's works have often seemed a bit dubious of homosexuality
>to me. [...] Of course, Heinlein's own feelings are not relevant;
>it's what's in his books that matters, and that's what I'm trying
>to stick to addressing.
>
>I guess it boils down to, how much of a personally repugnant
>philosophy can you accept, if you feel that the writing is good and
>the story interesting? I liked both STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE
>FOREVER WAR. If you don't feel that the writing is good or the
>story disinteresting, then by all means, reject the book. For me,
>Heinlein is like 'Doc' Smith in that other discussion going on;
>I'll forgive him his trespasses because he didn't have a clue :-).
>I wish he had had one, though.

I agree with the authors sentiments.  I read Heinlein USUALLY,
DESPITE what I consider to be unpleasant attitudes about many
things, especially women.  I couldn't finish a couple of his books.

However, the author of the FOREVER WAR is JOE HALDEMAN, whom I have
heard say in no uncertain terms that he finds Heinlein's politics
and treatment of women in his books offensive (although he admires
many of the story concepts Heinlein has come up with).  Haldeman
would be offended, I think, to have Heinlein identified as the
author of something as anti-militaristic and egalitarian and fair to
women as the FOREVER WAR.

Una Smith
6065833@PUCC

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 02:22:00 GMT
From: husc6!necntc!frog!sc@RUTGERS.EDU (STella Calvert)
Subject: Contradiction?

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>stuart@rochester.ARPA (Stuart Friedberg) writes:
>>Heinlein's revolutionary is not only stealing from his comrades,
>>he is acting contrary to their interests!
>No, he is acting contrary to what they want.
> ... De la Paz feels himself morally obliged to con the loonies
>for their own good.
>
>An interesting wiew, considering that he (or at
>least Manny) thinks that the imposition of laws forbidding people to
>do this or that  -  FOR THEIR OWN GOOD  -  is totally immoral.
>
>Question: Is this contradiction real or imagined?

Imaginary, I think. When you make a law, you are saying "I, a
fallible human being, am ordering you not to act as you think right
because I don't trust you not to hurt yourself." When you hire a
professional (and Prof was the closest thing to a professional they
had), you're freely choosing an expert to represent you and placing
your trust in hir competence.  When _I_ do that, I expect the expert
to do what's in my interest, not what I want.  So to me, the
situations are exactly opposite.

Stella Calvert
Guest Account: {cybvax0!decvax}!frog!sc

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 21:23:39 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Heinlein/Stranger

Why is it that whenever an authors character behaves as they should
everyone jumps down the authors throat and claims that these are his
views !?

The quote shows us Jill's own attitudes, and hence how she feels
mike would react (if he were her). Over and over, in that book, do
people decide "how mike would feel/react/etc" and the get the shock
of their life finding out they were wrong. (take Jubal's reluctance
to introduce him to religion) If an author wants us to look at
something in a new light then he must also remind us of how we look
at it now. Setting up a character with one opinion and having that
character's ideas shot down is an effective way do do so. We
identify with Jill's notion...(Ya, thats right, thats how he'd
handle it..) then once we are comfortable that Mike will react like
we think he should we too get shocked out of our narrow minds when
he doesn't

If I recall correctly, (its been a while) Heinlein's
"asexual/ambisexual" ideas (like the ones we see in _Time_Enough_
and already discussed to death here) come to dominate once mike's
religion is founded. In the inner sanctum love is abundant and on
the whole gender free.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 21:47:13 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: attributions (was Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL)

6065833@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU  writes:
>>I guess it boils down to, how much of a personally repugnant
>>philosophy can you accept, if you feel that the writing is good
>>and the story interesting? I liked both STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE
>>FOREVER WAR.
>
> [ ... ] the author of the FOREVER WAR is JOE HALDEMAN, whom I have
>heard say in no uncertain terms that he finds Heinlein's politics
>and treatment of women in his books offensive (although he admires
>many of the story concepts Heinlein has come up with).  Haldeman
>would be offended, I think, to have Heinlein identified as the
>author of something as anti-militaristic and egalitarian and fair
>to women as the FOREVER WAR.

NO NO NO! I was not saying that Heinlein wrote THE FOREVER WAR.
(Well, if that's what you heard, I guess it is what I was saying to
you, but in the context of the discussion I really think I was being
pretty clear.) The point was that I liked *both* (Heinlein's)
STARSHIP TROOPERS and (Haldeman's) FOREVER WAR, *despite* the fact
that they espouse diametrically opposed theories of politics,
morality, and damn near everything.

THE FOREVER WAR was referenced in another article on this subject,
which is probably why I didn't give a full attribution. My apologies
if I was confusing; I do know who wrote what and I do know how the
philosphies differ (and I do know which one I like more :-) ).

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 22:04:20 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

6065833@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
> I agree with the authors sentiments.  I read Heinlein USUALLY,
> DESPITE what I consider to be unpleasant attitudes about many
> things, especially women.  I couldn't finish a couple of his
> books.
>
> However, the author of the FOREVER WAR is JOE HALDEMAN, whom I
> have heard say in no uncertain terms that he finds Heinlein's
> politics and treatment of women in his books offensive (although
> he admires many of the story concepts Heinlein has come up with).
> Haldeman would be offended, I think, to have Heinlein identified
> as the author of something as anti-militaristic and egalitarian
> and fair to women as the FOREVER WAR.

I'm not so sure the original poster was confused about this.  There
are a number of books, Forever War and Armour by John Steakly that
start from a similar point but go in other directions.  These serve
to create a contrast with Starship Troopers, but neither prove nor
disprove the arguments that Heinlein seems to be be presenting.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 22 May 87 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #247
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 87 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #247
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 247

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Feminism in SF (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 07:44 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Smith and Sexism

All this discussion of dated sexism in older SF makes me appreciate
the tact many authors, such as Asimov (I'm thinking especially of
the David Starr series), took -- they just don't have female
characters.  I know I find it much easier to get into such books
than those with wimpy female characters.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 May 1987 13:51:14-PDT
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Do you believe in magic?)
Subject: Sexism in Science Fiction

This is a quickly composed sketch of my feelings about the changing
attitude toward women in science fiction. Coming off the top of my
head, I'm sure it has errors, and I can't back up many of my
statements. But it is fodder for discussion, and it's a discussion I
think worthy of both male and female netters.

              The History of Sexism in Science Fiction

Our biannual arguments about the "grand masters" of science fiction
(Heinlein, E.E. Doc Smith, Asimov, etc.) have a recurrent theme that
readers seem to recognize and many will criticize: sexist attitudes
toward women.  This has prompted a journey into the past in my mind,
and I wanted to share my thoughts with you.

I began reading science fiction at the age of 12 (or so), when I was
finally allowed to borrow books from the Adult Section of my small
town's library.  One of my first forays into this level of
literature (as the librarians would have us understand it), brought
me to the corner bookshelf that contained perhaps 100 titles under
the heading of Science Fiction (many, of course, rightly belonged
under Fantasy, but I'm sure that the staid ladies would never have
such a fluffy-sounding heading in their collection). I gobbled these
100 in one summer, and overcame my distaste for the Children's
Section long enough to discover a Science Fiction shelf for
juveniles, as well.

In those days (during the end of the 1960's), the stuff of which
dreams were made had changed little since World War II. Technology
was still considered the domain of the scientist, and the Moon
Landing was hailed as the End of Science Fiction as we knew it.
After all, once man stood on another heavenly body, those science
fiction ideas were fulfilled. It was commonly understood that
mankind had broken the barrier to outer space, so the last frontier
was breached. Many of us thought we would have no more new science
fiction.  This was my belief, as a gullible teenager.

But in those days, I understood myself to be a unique breed -- a
female science fiction reader!  The science fiction I read was
geared toward adolescent males with pubescent fantasies of cowboys
in space. (What was the name of the series -- by Asimov, I think --
about the red-headed, freckled kid who travelled among the stars
with his teenage friend, and (I believe) a monkey.  Does this ring
any bells for you?)

All of the library acquisitions for science fiction were published
from 1930 through 1970, and most had young, male characters in
situations designed to bolster the developing male ego. I read books
by Asimov and Heinlein with the understanding that they were written
for teenage boys, not girls.  My exploration of the genre continued
through science fiction magazines, and I continued to encounter the
same narrow viewpoint. The result was exciting, comic-book level of
fiction that I could enjoy during those early "tom-boy" years when I
was quite certain my female gender had been a genetic fluke, and I
rejected feminity with a passion.

During the 1970's, social conciousness was "raised" from the issues
of the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, to Feminism and
Back-To-Nature. Then we were treated to the movie, Silent Running
(Back-To-Nature). Not nearly as good, was a TV movie called (I
think) She, about a world run by women who keep men as slaves and
for reproduction. "She" was a terrible movie, but it serves as an
example of reverse-sexism. In the growing awareness of women's
plight, the pendulum swung toward rapant anti-male attitudes,
bra-burning, and female communes.  Apparently, Marion Zimmer Bradley
has been so unfortunate as to become a rallying point for holdovers
from this era. Also see "The World According To Garp" by John
Irving, for a description of these radical feminists.

Perhaps the best thing I can say about the '70s is that they ended,
and the '80s are different.  With all the divorces in the '70s and
the growing number of young people going into the workplace without
plans for marrying and having conventional families, the single
woman is no longer remarkable.  Men have become adjusted to the idea
of women in business and in government positions.  Women have, for
the most part, overcome the prejudices of previous decades.  During
the late '70s, the feminist movement became a living joke,
examplified by that movie, She. The backlash against feminism became
apparent in shoot-em-up, special-effects vehicles, like the first
Star Wars movie. Princess Leia is the standard "damsel in distress,"
whose main contribution to the plot is the fact that she owns the
'droids, and programs R2D2 to get help from a man -- Obi-Wan Kenobi.

During the 80's, women are becoming accepted. Our particular
strengths are more valued, and it has become commonplace to see
women and men working the same jobs, for the same pay, with the same
responsibilities. I'm sure this is not true everywhere, yet, but I'm
equally sure that more backward parts of the world will be forced to
conform in the future. Now women are reading science fiction, too,
and the genre is changing to accomodate the needs of the female
reader and the works of the female author.

Some women who have previously written under male pseudonyms have
revealed their true identities.  Andre Norton, C.J.Cherryh, and
others recently discussed on the net, have "come out of the closet"
of male disguise, for the main reason that we now recognize the
female portion of the science fiction audience.  Women, like men,
need role models and heroes (or heroines). In the past, the
predominantly male readership of science fiction dictated the heavy
male orientation of the science fiction of the 30s through the 70s.
The more recent recognition of women as a significant audience has
prompted a reorientation of science fiction themes, characters, and
plots. The movie Alien, is an example of the acceptance of women to
the "men's club" of science fiction.

So, when you criticize those old standbys, like Heinlein, for their
"sexist attitudes," remember that most contemporary fiction is
published for one and only one purpose - financial gain. Coming from
his environment, with the intention to publish and make money,
Heinlein was only following convention in his early novels, like
Glory Road. His predominantly male audience would presumably be
satisfied with the emphasis on male superiority and would not put up
with strong female characters.

Of course, Heinlein continues to churn out the same stereotypical
characters today, in our "enlightened" decade, but I attribute that
to the reactionary portion of the public whose attitudes (and,
therefore, requirements of fiction) have not changed with the times.
This is not a denigration of Heinlein fans, but a recognition that
these folks do exist.

On the other hand, female authors are becoming successful, and
science fiction has become more diversified, dealing with important
social and technological questions.  The genre, now shared between
the sexes, has improved tremendously, in my opinion, since 1970. I
think it is unfair to judge previous works by these standards. It is
equally important to apply our new standards to fiction coming out
today, and, rather than base our opinion of value of a new piece of
fiction on the author's reputation, we must also consider the
author's ability to meet the needs of a changing public.

------------------------------

From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Smith and Sexism
Date: 14 May 87 18:28:52 GMT

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM (Lisa Wahl) writes:
>All this discussion of dated sexism in older SF makes me appreciate
>the tact many authors, such as Asimov (I'm thinking especially of
>the David Starr series), took -- they just don't have female
>characters.  I know I find it much easier to get into such books
>than those with wimpy female characters.

Lisa, do you really mean 'tact', or 'tack'? I doubt that Asimov et
al.  left female characters out in order to be tactful...

I haven't read the David Starr series, but in general the presence
or absence of female characters doesn't bother me; it's the way the
characters of either gender act that bothers me or not. If the men
are acting like Space Cadets in standard fifties sf style, then
standard side-kick women don't make it much worse, just more of the
same.

A sidelight relating to the Smith/dated sexism discussion: I liked
the Foundation series very much, but when the new book came out I
disliked it partly for its sexism. His female characters had not
changed since the original series, and what I would accept as
written then, I won't accept nowadays. (Of course, he may have been
deliberately trying to recreate the style of the earlier books.
That's his right, but I didn't enjoy it.)

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 19:12:34 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction

From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Do you believe in magic?)

Just adding my $.02 to the discussion.

> Our biannual arguments about the "grand masters" of science
> fiction (Heinlein, E.E. Doc Smith, Asimov, etc.) have a recurrent
> theme that readers seem to recognize and many will criticize:
> sexist attitudes toward women.  This has prompted a journey into
> the past in my mind, and I wanted to share my thoughts with you.

Well, at least Asimov does have one female hero in his Foundation
"Trillogy" Bayta Darrel (sp?) who defeats the Mule. Her
grand-daughter also figures prominately in the preservation of the
Second Foundation.  (BTW: From other readings of Asimov's works - I
think the grand-daughter is a fictionalized version of Asimov's own
daughter).

> The backlash against feminism became apparent in shoot-em-up,
> special-effects vehicles, like the first Star Wars movie. Princess
> Leia is the standard "damsel in distress," whose main contribution
> to the plot is the fact that she owns the 'droids, and programs
> R2D2 to get help from a man -- Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Oh, I don't know, she seemed to handle a blaster pretty well. I
don't think she came off looking *that* helpless. She certainly came
out better in the "character" department compared with the innocent,
but somewhat scatter brained Luke, or the Hot-Headed, "shoot first -
think later" Hans.

> Women, like men, need role models and heroes (or heroines).

Amen. Lord knows, we can't depend upon drug-addict sports heros,
leading politicians, or even evangelists anymore!

> I think it is unfair to judge previous works by these standards.

True! Yet some older works do hold up. Tolkien has Galadriel and
Eowen as heroic figures. In fact, there's a strong feminist line in
regards to Eowen. Tolkien clearly displays her struggle with her
identity and her drastic measure to overcome the sexism prevalent in
her culture.  (Sort of reminds me of the story of Joan of Arc).

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98466,206-581-1322
{psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 19:08:37 GMT
From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series (not really)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
  [In response to criticism of the "Lensman" series.]
> 'Tain't no such thing as women's equality in books before the
> '70's.
> (And, truth to tell, little of it now.)

For those who insist on complaining about the least hint of sexism
in any book, I suggest you try reading one of the "Fu Man Chu"
series by Sax Rhomer (sp?) and find out what REAL sexism is about.

The women in E.E. "Doc" Smith's universe may sometimes be
subordinate, but they are generally educated, talented, intelligent
and capable of taking action when necessary.

Compare with Rhomer's world where, for example, any education is
considered wasted on a woman and the women agree!  This point was
explicitly made, in so many words, in _Bride of Fu Man Chu_, the
only book in the series I've read.  Not surprisingly, it was the
arch-villain Fu Man Chu who required his that bride-to-be be
educated, much to the horror of the hero (whose name escapes me).

Then there's John "Whips 'n' Chains" Norman ... bleah.  But even
_he_ has _some_ strong female characters.

For his time, Smith was rather progressive in his attitudes towards
women, who had only recently won the right to vote.

As for his writing style, well ... I kept thinking he'd _have_ to
run out of superlatives sooner or later.  He never did.  Amazing.

Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (213) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
hollombe@TTI.COM
{csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 00:07:10 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction

   Japan is still a fairly sexist place to be from all current
accounts (I've never been there myself but being of Japanese
ancestry I have tended to be interested).  In a way, the surprising
thing about Japanese Anime's is how they've kept up with western
thinking.  I'm not going to hold up Macross as a great breakthrough
in this respect (althought the all female bridgecrew and the role of
Lisa Hayes were probably pretty revolutionary considering when the
shows were written--even by North American standards).  What was
more surprising was the Jean Francais/Dana Sterling character who,
whether "realistic" or not presented and interesting personality to
think about.  It absolutely amazes me that a female character of
such self assurance could be written in Japan.  Ok, maybe a word
about realism: I know a girl who at one point I suddenly realized
was *very* much like Dana Sterling.  She has her own battleground
and approaches life with much the same zest.  After watching a quite
a few episodes it hit me that "My G*d!  It's _____!"  Like Dana, she
tends to succeed in what she does, but not without making a fair bit
of noise.
     Another revolutionary character was Rook Bartley.  I don't
think anyone has ever written a female heroine who has the shear
bitterness towards her fellows as Rook.  Her absolute rudeness is
unprecedented.  When Scott and Rand "come to her rescue" for the
first time in a barroom brawl, she gets up and gruffly says "Why'd
ya have to bud in!", and that's among the tamer moments in that
series.
     Here we have some pretty far flung examples of female
personalities.  How is it that these are coming out of Japan and not
North America?  Furthermore, the evidence I have is that Japanese
*males* were responsible for these characters.  My overall feeling
is that North American writers in pretty much *all* fields, and male
and female writers equally have written pretty dull women compared
to a Rook Bartley, and possibly a Dana Sterling.  (Do I have to ask
for comments to this statement? :-)

Cheers!

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 22 May 87 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #248
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 87 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #248
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 248

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 13:19:03 GMT
From: jml@cs.strath.ac.uk (Joseph McLean)
Subject: Lotr v elder sagas

I will concede that the way LOTR was written, and the messages it
contains, require the existence of the 'hobbit',i.e. the
insignificant little characters who are instrumental in saving the
world.
  However this is really a side issue to my original letter. What I
really wanted to get across was that I consider the Elder Sagas as
given in the Silmarillion, and the Unfinished and Lost Tales are far
superior works of great emotive power, epic and tragedy, and
deliberately written so, as opposed to LOTR which is written as a
novel,i.e. as detailed account of a small part of Middle Earth
history (no matter how important). It almost appears as if, having
this vast tragic history as background, Tolkien wanted to aim for a
point at which he could stop and not require to write any more
recent history. Thus he accelerated all the different ideas towards
each other until a time became suitable to tie up every loose end in
one fell swoop. And perhaps the idea of the weak link of the hobbit
being the eventual redemption of Middle Earth was aesthetically
pleasing as a piece of literature.

  Sorry for getting too verbose towards the end there. My thoughts
just followed a logical idea and I kept typing. An interesting idea
though, eh?

jml

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 18:56:47 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion

Jeff Okamoto writes:
> I would take some exception to the point about Gandalf.  Without
> him, the West would have fallen...

Gandalf *did* do one thing which makes this statement true, namely:
discovering Frodo's ring was the *one*, convincing Bilbo to pass it
on, and Frodo to attempt to destroy it.

> It was he who entered Dol Guldur twice and came out with Thrain's
> map and ring.

Just a minor flame.  Gandalf got the map and key; Sauron got the
ring.  Only the one and the three remained "at large".

For the most part, I agree with you that Gandalf was a "prime mover"
in the War of the Ring. However, he is also something of a wise *ss
in that he usually had some information which he held back.  There
are several good examples of this. When he brought Theoden to the
Orthanc.  Gandalf *knew* that Sauarman was overthrown, yet he didn't
disclose this information to the king (nor did he tell the king
about those he found that were not slain, but merely scattered until
they reached the Fords of Isen). Then there's the "game" he played
with Aragon, Gimli, and Legolas upon their meeting in Fangon. He
also knew that a Palinar (sp?) existed at the Orthanc, and at Minas
Tirith, yet didn't disclose this information until each "became
public".

> He is the Saviour of the West.

I'd say; "He is one of the Saviours of the West".

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98466
206-581-1322
{psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 13:14:41 GMT
From: adb@elrond.calcomp.com (Alan D. Brunelle)
Subject: Silmarillion vs. LoTR vs. Hobbit vs. Cottage of Lost Play

I have been following some of the discussion on the merits of the
Silmarillion over LoTR (and the discussion of Gandalfs role in that
latter story). I was wondering how many had read The Book of Lost
Tales (Part I) which starts with the Cottage of Lost Play? I have
skimmed it once, and have just finished the 2nd reading, and feel
that while it definately does not have the polish that the
Silmarillion does it is just wonderful to see the same story told in
a different way.

I would also like to add my $0.02 in on the two discussions going on:

1. I feel that one has to realize the reasons behind the writing
   of the 3: _The Hobbit_ *was* originally written for his children
   - therefore it should not be considered in any other ligth, but
   that of a wonderful children's book (though there is some pretty
   heavy moral stuff and other adult portions of the book which
   tends to make it kind of hard to strictly classify it thusly.)
   LoTR was written for those that screamed for more 'hobbit'
   stories - though this is a much more adult book.  The
   Silmarillion was Tolkein's life work - if one has read some of
   Christopher T.'s editorial works, one can see that this story was
   Tolkeins masterpiece lifelong work - it evolved around the
   languages involved and was constantly being amended or polished
   or scrapped and redone.

   I don't think that it is fair to compare the books against each
   other, but to enjoy each for it's individual character and grace.

2. As to Gandalf's role in LoTR I would think that it is quite clear
   that his (and the other Istari) purpose was to assist the Free
   Peoples in their fight against Sauron by forming a last great
   union of the Peoples. I don't think that he is in any way THE
   saviour of the West, but more in the light of THE coordinator of
   the west. It was he that got ALL of the different nations to
   concern themselves with the menace.  (If you would like me to
   choose my pick for THE saviour of the West, it would have to be
   ... Samwise Gamgee! Read the LoTR carefully, and you will realize
   that Sam really carried Frodo from the time that they left the
   company to the Fire of Doom. If that Ring were not destroyed all
   of the valiant efforts by Aragorn and Gandalf &c would have come
   to naught - of course without the valiant efforts by the above
   the chance to destroy the ring wouldn't have happened...)


Alan D. Brunelle
uucp: ...{decvax,harvard,savax,wanginst}!elrond!adb
      adb@elrond.CalComp.COM
phone: (603) 885-8145
us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD
         (PTP2-2D02)
         Hudson NH   03051-0908

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 06:22:24 GMT
From: ABC%PSUVMB.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Tolkien: Silmarillion versus LOTR

From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
>...  tide.  ONLY a hobbit could have snuck in to Mordor without
>attracting Sauron's attention.  None of the "grand" beings could
>have done it.  And even in the end, the hobbits were not strong
>enough to overcome the overwhelming Evil of the Ring---it was
>destroyed by accident.

     I'm not so sure about that.  The whole point seems to be that
the Ring, in order to "rule them all ... and in the darkness bind
them" must bind *itself* to its victims.  In other words, it doesn't
make itself more powerful by enslaving everyone, it just makes a
mess of the whole world which Sauron wanted to be more powerful
than.  Sauron has even *reduced* himself in his attempt to get
absolute power, by chaining his power to the ring.  And it seems
very fitting that, in the end, all of Sauron's chains turn out to be
as strong as the weakest link: Gollum.
     As for the question of whether the ring was destroyed by
accident, I think that Tolkien meant for that to be abiguous.  He
said in a letter that he had considered an alternate ending in which
Gollum's momentary repentance (just before Sam calls him a "sneak")
is more lasting, and when Frodo claims the Ring, Gollum takes it
away from him in order to *deliberately* jump into the Fire.  Gollum
is perhaps the one character who really understood that death was
preferable to anything that the Ring had to offer.  But Fordo also
felt something of this.  I wish that I could quote what he said to
Sam about what the burden of the Ring was like, but I only remember
fragments of it: for example, that there was no veil between him and
the wheel of fire.  I think that was some of Tolkien's most
powerful, and frightening, writing (Silmarillion included), and also
an effective illustration of his thesis that to seek power for its
own sake is an inherently destructive - and also self-destructive -
action.

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87 03:10:52 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion

Joseph McLean writes:
> The mystique and epic quality of the elder sagas far exceed LOTR
> (itself a pleasant little story) and especially the Hobbit.  Does
> anyone agree that the invention of hobbits totally depreciates the
> 'reality' of the later ages? Does anyone know why Tolkien
> introduced them in the first place? Was it simply to write a story
> for his children? I mean you can hardly expect a group of 4 foot
> high plump hairy 'cute and cuddly' gnomes to rival the grandness
> and tragedy of the gods the elves, man, dwarf, the savage early
> orcs etc unless you are a child. . . .

Well, I certainly don't agree about the hobbits.  Charley Wingate
has already made a good point of contrasting their small stature
with the grand stature of the Great of the Elder Days, so I'll point
out something else:

The hobbits are our eyes in Middle Earth.  They are the race with
whom we can best empathise: even the Men are not as close to us,
being still very much the product of an Elven-allied society.  We
have much more in common with the Shire than with Numenor or Gondor.
In fact, every time I read the opening chapters, a very comfortable
English feeling settles over me: the Shire is like an idealised
England.  Safe, secure, Normal.  In fact, of course, a major point
of the whole story is that it is not so, and that, if its safety is
to be assured, great sacrifice is going to be required of its
inhabitants.  Frodo himself says essentially this to Sam when he
finally leaves for the Grey Havens at the end.

Why do some people regard everything shorter than Darth Vader as
"cute and cuddly?"  Ted Sandyman wasn't.  Old Gaffer Gamgee wasn't.
Farmer Maggot wasn't.  Frodo and Bilbo weren't.  And I'd sooner
cuddle a cactus than any of the Sackville-Bagginses.

I believe you are half right: Tolkien posted installments to his
son.  But they would hardly have been of a children's story:
Christopher was serving with the RAF in South Africa, if I remember
rightly.

>I don't know about that; I find the ruins of Isengard to be one of
>the most striking images in the who thing.

My own vote is for the terrifying descriptions of Mordor, and of the
hideous plain to its north.  But I know just what you mean.

>. . . Gandalf, while he is perhaps the most powerful of the forces
>of Good, is limited, and is controlled by a host of frailties.

For a very important reason: the first time the Valar sent a force
to deal with Melkor and Sauron, they did the most obvious thing: use
full power against them.  It defeated Melkor alright, but it smashed
living hell out of Middle Earth: the subcontinent of Beleriand was
utterly destroyed.  In their horror at what they had done to Middle
Earth while trying (in part) to save it, the Valar decided never
again to enter it in open force, and that all their agents must
enter it discretely, using their power only indirectly.

Which, of course, emphasises your point: Gandalf does have frailties
and quirks of character.  He would be much less interesting, much
less personally attractive, if he hadn't.

>. . .Gandalf, on the other hand, serves mostly as a distraction
>(for both the reader and the Bad Guys!); he's very powerful, when
>he is not actively thwarted, he is deliberately trying to look like
>the center of the action, which he never really is after the first
>book.  The one real action he takes after that point is to expell
>Saruman from Orthanc, and even that is a bit of a decoy.

I feel a little guilty here, because I simply can't agree (and
everything else you say rings so true).  Gandalf was the prime
mover, the catalyst and shaker without whom, right to the end, the
West would never have united.  I believe Benjamin Franklin remarked
that "... if we do not hang together, we shall assuredly hang
separately", and Sauron would certainly have "hanged" the West
piecemeal if Gandalf, against considerable reluctance and
uninterest, had not united it against him.  Furthermore, his
personal deeds are numerous: slaying the Balrog, distracting Sauron
while Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen, healing Theoden (could Rohan
otherwise ever have come to Gondor?  Would Saruman otherwise have
been defeated?) uniting the City's last defence when Denethor
succumbed, diverting Sauron's attention from Imlad Morgul when he
learned Frodo had taken that way -- the list is long.

>To me, then, the two works really cannot be compared against one
>another; I prefer LOTR, but I don't think that this means it is the
>better work.  It is a question of taste.

I think that is very true, but I also think it's a question of
objective: LOTR was essentially the personal account of the hobbits:
their record of the Great War, and what they did in it (partly so
that the hobbits would not again take for granted the gentle life
they had in the Shire); but the earlier material is an Epic, written
by those whose breadth of vision (not to mention lifespan) was well
suited for thinking on epic lines.

I too like LOTR better, without particularly feeling it the better
work.  I'm just more comfortable with it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 22:38:08 GMT
From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: Feminism in Tolkien?!

Dan Flak writes:
>Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact, there's
>a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien clearly
>displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic measure to
>overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture.

While perhas better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel in
distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly call
this a "strong feminist line."  After all, what happens to Eowen?
She falls in love once, but because "the man of her dreams" doesn't
return her affection she decides to go seek death in battle
(motivational problems, but so far, okay).  She fights in battle,
does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the rest of the war in the
houses of healing (still okay, so far).  However, what happens to
her there?  She falls for her "true love", and decides she no longer
wants to be a "shield maiden", but will devote herself to healing
(as I recall).  Now what do we have here as a tale of female
maturation?  Only irresponsible adolescents want to play male
"games", and that "real women" want to do traditionally feminine,
service-oriented things.

Granted for when Tolkien was writing, it's not bad, but it's not
that great by current standards.

Kay
k@mit-eddie.UUCP
kay@MIT-XX.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 14:38:45 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?!

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
> (still okay, so far).  However, what happens to her there?  She
> falls for her "true love", and decides she no longer wants to be a
> "shield maiden", but will devote herself to healing (as I recall).
> Now what do we have here as a tale of female maturation?  Only
> irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that
> "real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented
> things.

I am sorry, but I think that anyone who would rather cure the sick
and infirm is a lot more mature than someone who wants to go out and
hack another individual to death. Sure the second is sometimes
necessary, but to believe that it is the only thing in life like
Eowen did is not the sign of someone who has matured. Also, why is
healing a traditionally feminine service-oriented thing? It seems to
me that there are a lot more male doctors than female ones, and from
the way they talk about nurse shortages, a lot more male doctors
than nurses of any kind. Medicine is an area where women have been
held out of any recognized positons of authority for too long for it
to be thought of as a feminine domain. Now, if Eowen had wanted to
give up being a shield-maiden to become just Faramir's queen, then I
think you would have a case against Tolkien.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 22 May 87 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #249
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 87 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #249
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 249

Today's Topics:

              Films - Creature from the Haunted Sea &
                      Dark Crystal & Battle Beyond the Stars &
                      Wavelength & 2001 (3 msgs) &
                      Phantom of the Paradise & Bakshi &
                      Japanimation & The Raven &
                      Good/Bad SF Films (2 msgs)
              Radio - Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 12:15:16 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Bad SF Movies

Believe it or not, there *is* an SF movie even worse (IMHO) than
PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE.  Keep your eyes peeled for a cinematic
disaster called CREATURE FROM THE HAUNTED SEA (1961), directed by
Roger Corman, and starring Anthony Carbone, Betsy Jones-Morland, and
many others of whom you've never heard.  The plot, such as it is,
involves Cubans (hey, topicality), gangsters, a fake sea monster,
and a (gasp!) real sea monster, all commented on in pseudo-Sam-Spade
style by the young protagonist, who has delusions of humor and
beat-poet insight.  The rubber suit for the monster makes Godzilla
look convincing, the scenes are so poorly lit it seems as if the
camera was wearing sunglasses (probably hoping not to be
recognized), and the accompanying "music," especially the title
song, is unbelievably wretched.  Why is this movie worse than PLAN
9?  Because trying hard and totally unsuccessfully to be funny is
much more painful to the viewer than being inadvertently funny.

BTW, I saw PLAN 9 and CFTHS as a double feature (lucky me!). The one
saving grace for CRTHS is that it's 16 minutes shorter than PLAN 9.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 02:12:30 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Bad movies

From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
> Speaking of bad movies...was anyone else unlucky enough to see
> "The Star Crystal" (or maybe it was "Space" Crystal - so bad I've
> blanked part of my memory of it)?  This was such a turkey that the
> people who stayed all the way to the end (not many) were harassing
> the guy taking tickets at the door "you should be ashamed to show
> that movie in your theater!" - leaving the poor guy all flustered,
> wondering what was wrong.
>
> Then there are the Miles O'Keefe "spaghetti sword & sorcery"
> movies...sheesh!

Would this be (*retch*) _Dark Crystal_?

You know, the one with the dippy muppet/elf heroes, who the audience
kept praying to be shot, burned, axe-murdered, or otherwise brutally
abused (the half of the audience who didn't leave, that is...).

Actually, I must admit to liking two things in it:
1. The beetle-like guards
2. "I'm not dead YET!"

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87  13:58:27 EDT
From: Castell%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Good/bad SF movies

Somebody mentioned BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS... I saw that on network
TV many long years ago... It was so campy I felt a need for a tent
and a case of Deep Woods Off, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Classic
line: "Does your species have kissing?". George Peppard's character
of a washed-up space cowboy was hilarious. Unfortunately I've
forgotten virtually all of the character names, except Sador (nice
original-sounding name, guys!!! :-) ).  It takes a fair amount of
suspension of disbelief, but I've watched enough Doctor Who to be
expert at that. A wonderfully mindless little romp.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 87 18:12:24 GMT
From: harvard!adelie!munsell!klm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin McBride)
Subject: Re: Good little-known low-budget SF movie

ee173sdu@sdcc18.ucsd.EDU (Jethro Bodean) writes:
>   If this one was mentioned I didn't see it...
>
>    WAVELENGTH: There may be movies be the same name (I heard of
>confusion over this point once) but basically it's aliens are on
>earth and good people help them escape. Made late 70's I believe.
>    In many ways it's a precursor of STARMAN and actually gives the
>
> [mostly deleted]
>
>in the movie...  Pay special attention to the final scene and you
>will burst out laughing if you've seen STARMAN. (FX rip-off time..)

Yes, I've seen this movie, although I don't remember when.  I
believe that I saw it on cable.  Probably the saturday afternoon
dumb B movie on USA.  Actually, the movies aren't all bad (though
most are), but I can't stand that jerk in the makeup and stupor man
suit.

Anyway, now that you mention it... I did see the movie.  I probably
came in halfway thru or so because I didn't remember the name.

What caught my attention was your mention of the FX rip-off.  When I
saw STARMAN the first time and got to the end of the movie something
clicked inside my brain and I thought, "Gawd, I've seen this scene
before, but weren't there little green men?"  That bothered me for
quite a while as my memory is usually pretty good.  I thought that
maybe I was having those recurring nightmares again.  You know, the
one where Elvira handcuffs me to a dentists chair and forces me to
watch PLAN 9 over and over again while she's administering the
chinese water torture with Coors beer? :-)

Kevin McBride
Eikonix Corp.
23 Crosby Dr.
Bedford, MA  01730
{{harvard,ll-xn}!adelie,{decvax,allegra,talcott}!encore}!munsell!klm

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 87 11:50:43 GMT
From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson)
Subject: 2001

Can anyone out there please explain to me what happened in the last
10 minutes or so of 2001. I saw the film without reading the book
and I was totally lost at the end. I went out the next day and
bought the book, but I'm still none the wiser.

help !

Tony H.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 87 08:50 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: 2001 and obscurity
Cc: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu

I have long been fascinated by the theory among many SF fans and
writers, that the more difficult something is to understand, the
better it is.  I can only guess that this is due to some ego kick
gotten out of being able to say "YOU didn't understand it?  Well, it
was perfectly clear to ME!"  Certainly Mr. Wiener seems to be on
that trip.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 13:30:43 GMT
From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: 2001

th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) writes:
> Can anyone out there please explain to me what happened in the
> last 10 minutes or so of 2001. I saw the film without reading the
> book and I was totally lost at the end. I went out the next day
> and bought the book, but I'm still none the wiser..

Yeah, Stanley Kubrick mixed together a lot of universal mumbo-jumbo,
some cheap effects and some heavy cutting and made even us who had
read the book wonder what we were doing in the cinema...

Seems like there always have to be a part in the movie the critics
can't comprehend. :-) (maybe that is what the moviemakers call
*art*)

Kent Sandvik
PS: 2011 is much better
PSS: I don't like Ingmar Bergman for the same reasons as above

ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden
PHONE: (46) 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home
ARPA:  enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:  ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 87 10:05:16 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Phantom of the Paradise

> I'm glad to see that someone else appreciates this film, which I
> think is one of the best movies I've ever seen.  It is also one of
> the most difficult films to find; apparently the studio that
> released it didn't make much of an effort to distribute it widely,
> so it wasn't seen by many people when it first came out (1974) and
> no one was interested in rereleasing it or in television rights.
>
> It was written and directed by Brian DePalma (one of his first
> films) and stars (among others) William Finney (I think) and Paul
> Williams who wrote the music & lyrics to all the film's songs.
> (Don't let this put you off; Paul Williams is good in this!)  This
> film is a rock & roll version of the Phantom of the Opera with
> elements of the Faust legend thrown in.

It is definitely out on video, and worth tracking down.  It also
starred Jessica Harper as Phoenix in her first film role.  Paul
Williams was just right as Swan -- it was played to some degree for
camp, and worked perfectly (PotP is somewhere between a spoof and an
homage of the great Universal horror films, done as a rock opera...
) It is also one of the few dePalma films that downplays gore, which
I find refreshing.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 20:59:19 GMT
From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin)
Subject: Re: Bakshi's WIZARDS and Ian Miller

boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM writes:
> Bakshi ripped off the styles of more than just Vaughn Bode for
> "Wizards".  For years I tried to find out who did the very
> characteristic covers for Ray Bradbury's paperbacks: very angular
> etchings.  It turned out to be a British artist named Ian Miller.
> Many of the scenes in Wizards...  were precisely in Ian Miller's
> style.  Copying style is a little fuzzier than copying characters,
> but artists, if not the Copyright Office, still consider it
> plagarism when unacknowledged.

   I do not know about the graphics, but in "Lord of the Rings", the
song the elves sing about Gandalf is note for note the serious theme
in "Jupiter: bringer of Jolity" from Holst' THE PLANETS.  If Bakshi
has no ethics about stealing music, I see no reason he should about
other aspects of moviemaking.

   I consider this sort of behavior very distasteful. And now I will
not even go see a Bakshi production if I know that it is his.
Besides "LORD .." was awful (huch!! pooh ictch ACK!) anyway.

marcus @ur-cvsvax

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 87 13:10:41 PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: new movie by Miyazaki-sensei
To: Urusei-Yatsura%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU

Miyazaki-sensei, who brought us Nausicaa and Laputa, has announced
that he is coming out with a new movie.  This is "about kids life in
Japan 20-30 years ago" according to Animage magazine.

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 21:06:34 GMT
From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin)
Subject: Re: Good F&SF Films you might not have thought of...

jeffh@BRL.ARPA writes:
>If anyone can think of any other fantasy (NOT swords and sorcery)
>films, I would be interested in hearing about them.

I have not seen it, but have been told that "The Raven" with B.
Karloff and B. Lugosi(??) has one heck of a battle of magic that I
am still dying to see.  At least I consider this a fantasy film.

marcus @ur-cvsvax

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 87 13:54 PDT
From: "12338::MORGAN%sc.intel.com"@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: older sf films

Several Expressionist classics are still occasionally seen in
museums, film festivals, on PBS etc.  "THE CABINET OF DR. CALIGARI"
is probably the best known.  "FREAKS" should be on any list.  My
personal favorite is Carl Dryer's "VAMPYR" (1933).  A lyrical film,
where dream and reality are often hard to distinguish, and the evil
is mostly a felt rather than seen presence.  It's been a while, but
I remember a long scene where the hero dreams his death, and the
terror of his immobility beneath the glass coffin lid is blended
with the beauty of what he sees and hears, light through leaves,
church bells, etc.

Morgan Mussell

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 15:15:30 CDT
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: Good F&SF Films

A couple of films I haven't seen mentioned here:

COCOON - a warm-hearted film about life, death, and immortality.
         Contains many borrowed ideas that were well put together.
         Has some great performances as well.  The FX could ahve
         been toned down or cut entirely.

THE NATURAL - every baseball fan's fantasy come to life.  Has many
         of the elements of classical fantasy - i.e. replace the bat
         with an excalibur-type sword, replace the owner with an
         evil king, ...etc.

My nominee for the all time worst SF film is IT CAME FROM OUTER
SPACE.  I think that there are two versions: one was made in
Hollywood and the other was, I assume, an amateur production.  The
version I saw had no dialogue - only a narrator explaining the
apparent conversations of the actors.  It seemed like half of the
movie consisted of shots of blue sky.  Frank Zappa described the
Monster accurately as a pup tent with a giant inverted ice-cream
cone for a head.  Paper eyes.  Paper fangs that flopped in the wind.
Occasional glimpses of sneakers underneath the Monster.  When the
Monster shows up at a dance, a brawl breaks out.  Damsels in
distress leap into the Monsters mouth.  This movie makes Plan 9 look
like an Oscar nominee.

marco@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 19:49:24 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!agoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl Cialli)
Subject: The Star Wars Radio Series

It's only been a few years now, but does anyone still remember the
Star Wars Radio series?  It was broadcast on National Public Radio
in 1981 and 1983 and consisted of 13 half-hour episodes for Star
Wars and 10 half-hour episodes for the Empire Strikes Back.  All
were produced in cooperation with Lucasfilm and featured Mark
Hamill, Anthony Daniels, original music and sound effects.  The
other voices were from non-original actors/actresses but they
sounded very close and they did an outstanding job.  These included
Lou Brock (one of the Admirals in Star Trek IV) as Darth Vader,
Perry (Riptide) King as Han Solo and John Lithgow as Yoda.

What I found most appealing about the series was it's injection of
material not found in the films.  For instance, the very first
episode went into things like Luke's home life on Tatooine, a
skyhopper race and a meeting with his friend Biggs Darklighter.  The
second episode tells of just how Princess Leia finds out about the
Death Star plans and so on.  Just by the fact that the series are
6.5 and 5 hours you can appreciate how much new material was added.

Well, what I was hoping is that they would finally do a Jedi radio
series.  I have written to NPR and they had no real answer to give.
A short time ago NPR was in financial dire straits and many programs
had to be canceled.  Then I had the luck to see and talk to Brian
Daley, the scripter of the series.  He was at a local bookstore
autographing his new book.  He spoke of the great time they had
doing the series and that they would have continued on and done Jedi
but it was postponed because the funds ran out.  One interesting
thing I had to ask him about concerned the torture scene of Leia by
Vader aboard the Death Star (the whole scene was played out).  In
it, Vader drugs her and then pretending to be her father, trys to
find the location of the rebel base.  With the revelation of the
"other" in Jedi, that whole sequence was too ironic!  Daley claimed
that he really didn't know Vader was indeed her father.

I could go on about it but what it comes down is that I miss it.
With no more movies in the works, the radio shows are something new,
different and they also leave a lot to your imagination.  Anyway the
whole idea of anything I'm sure is on permanent hiatus and I just
feel that it would be great if NPR could be convinced to continue
it.  The shows that I have on tape will probably become family
heirlooms!

Karl Cialli
MCI International Inc.
Dept. 433/875
2 International Drive
Rye Brook, NY 10573
UUCP: {allegra,cmcl2,decvax,harvard,seismo}!rochester!ur-tut!agoe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 22 May 87 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #250
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 87 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #250
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 May 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 250

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asimov & Hogan &
                    Leiber & Lewis & Tiptree & 
                    Zelazny (3 msgs) & Cyberpunk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 18:38:34 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Piers Anthony

I just finished reading the fourth of Piers Anthony's Incarnations
of Immortality Series, WIELDING A RED SWORD, and I must say that I
enjoyed it a great deal, almost as much as the first of the series.
I really enjoy the way that he blends fantasy in with science
fiction.  Magic and science do mix, I guess.  Are there any other
books out there that do a good job of doing this same sort of thing?
It'll really be interesting to see how he finishes the series up.
There are an awful lot of potential loose ends to tie up.  I say
potential because they are only loose ends if he wants them to be.
Otherwise, he'll probably just use the "And that's how it is"
arguement.  Will Satan prevail?  We'll just have to wait and see.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 21:08:04 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) says:
> I just finished reading the fourth of Piers Anthony's Incarnations
> of Immortality Series, WIELDING A RED SWORD, and I must say that I
> enjoyed it a great deal, almost as much as the first of the
> series.  I really enjoy the way that he blends fantasy in with
> science fiction.  Magic and science do mix, I guess.  Are there
> any other books out there that do a good job of doing this same
> sort of thing? ...

If you haven't read them already, try Piers Anthony's "The
Apprentice Adept" series:

  1) Split Infinity
  2) Blue Adept
  3) Juxtaposition
  4) Out of Phaze (new trilogy, first book)

This series was excellent, has mixture of both SF and fantasy and
seems to be widely enjoyed by others on the NET.

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
(215) 647-0440
7 Great Valley Parkway East  Malvern PA 19355
ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 18:21:03 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Robots, robots and yet more robots

As long as we're on the subject of robots (or, more specifically,
names of robots), I want to put in a hearty recommendation for
Asimov's robot novels.  I just finished THE CAVES OF STEEL and am
now starting THE NAKED SUN.  I have already read THE ROBOTS OF DAWN,
ROBOTS AND EMPIRE and I, ROBOT.  They're definitely some of the best
sf that I have read, and the writing style is good, too.  I know
that when I was reading FOUNDATION'S EDGE, I thought he was making a
cheap sales pitch for these books, but I'm really glad that I
finally did read them.  Funny how some of the older stuff is still
some of the best.  I would like to see yet more robot novels with
Daneel Olivaw and his adventures.  I won't say more because I may
spoil the books for those who haven't read them.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: Thu 21 May 87 10:17:18-PDT
From: Bob Pratt <P.PRATT@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Hogan works in progress

There will be a new hardback James Hogan book out this summer. It
has (will have ?) an August release date, but some bookstores will
have it in July, since Hogan will be on a book signing tour to
coincide with the book's release. For instance, Future Fantasy in
Palo Alto, where I got this info, will have copies of the book by
July 8, when Hogan will be there for a signing. Check with the SF
specialty store in your area now !  3% APR financing available for a
limited time only. Buy now.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 07:39:28 GMT
From: adt@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas)
Subject: Re: Uncollected Leiber

     On the subject of one off Fafhred and the Grey Mouser stories I
remember one called The_Two_Best_Thieves_In_Lankhmar where the
dynamic duo get ripped off by two female thieves. I can't remember
where it appeared, possbily in an anthology of S&S stories called
The_Barbarian_Swordsmen.

Tony Thomas
adt@ukc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87 02:23:19 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, Narnia and Christian allegory

>  I feel I must warn those who have not yet read the Narnian
>Chronicles.  Yes, they are some of the best fantasy ever written,
>and yes, I recommend them (almost) unreservedly - except for the
>last volume.  "The Last Battle" is one of the most heavy-handed
>pieces of Christian allegory it's ever been my misfortune to read.
>Unless you are a born-again Christian (and maybe even if you are)
>this is one to avoid.  . . .

I'm afraid I can't agree, and I am as completely non-religious as
anybody I've ever heard of.

It is a measure of Lewis' greatness that he could write such a fine
series with the intention of allegory, and yet have it succeed
excellently simply as a set of lovely stories.  Until it was pointed
out to me that these stories were allegory, I never realised it; and
I can still easily ignore any allegorical suggestions while I read
them.

And I find this as true of The Last Battle as of any of them.  If we
talk about the last 10 or 20% of the book, I will start to agree
with you: some heavy handedness does start to emerge.  But by far
the majority of the book I find rivetting, and heart-wrenching: I
simply could not believe such a thing as the destruction of Narnia.
And the marvellously engaging style of writing that he started with
The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe continues here unabated.

You can, if like, regard Aslan and Tash as Christ and the Devil (or
whatever more subtle figure Tash represents); I don't.  I simply
regard them as Aslan and Tash, and it works perfectly for me.

So please don't avoid The Last Battle just because you're wary of
evangelism.  You'll be doing yourself out of a fine story.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 87 10:44:11 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Cc: csg-tg@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU
Subject: Alice Sheldon (James Tiptree, Jr.) kills self and husband

From Associated Press:

McLean, Va., May 19:

   A critically acclaimed author who wrote science fiction under the
name James Tiptree Jr. killed her husband and herself Tuesday [May
19] after telling her lawyer to call the police, the authorities
said.

   The author, Alice Sheldon, 71 years old, and her husband,
Huntington Sheldon, 84, were found in bed together with single
gunshot wounds to their upper body, said officials of the Fairfax
County police.

   Warren Charmichael, a spokesman for the police, said the shooting
occurred about 3:30 a.m. in the couple's home in this fashionable
suburb of Washington.

   The police said Mrs. Sheldon had been depressed about her
husband, who became blind this year and was bedridden.  She called
her lawyer to warn him she was planning the killings and told him to
call the police, the spokesman said.

                    "Enormous Critical Success"

   Virginia Kidd, Mrs. Sheldon's agent, said the author telephoned
her last week and had seemed "in her usual good spirits."

   Ms. Kidd described Mrs. Sheldon as "middling popular" as an
author.  "She had enormous critical success and was very highly
thought of by intellectuals," Ms. Kidd said.  "But she never made
the numbers."

   Nevertheless, she won the respect of her peers.  Isaac Asimov,
the science fiction writer, said in a 1984 article that she "has
produced works of the first magnitude and has won the wild adulation
of innumerable readers."

   He said he believed the reason she had been overlooked by some
was "that for some reason hidden in the recesses of her sweet soul,
she chooses to write under a pseudonym of the masculine persuasion."

                       Collection of Novellas

   The Washington Post in a March 1986 review called the author one
of the finest writers of short fiction in the 1970's.

   Mrs. Sheldon's most recent work was "Starry Rift," a collection
of three novellas, published in 1986.  The New York Times called it
a "latter-day space opera, replete with daring interstellar action,
life-saving (and life-threatening) technology and a general air of
wide-eyed wonder at the vast playground we call the universe."

   Other recent books include "Up the Walls of the World," published
in 1978, her first book after two decades of writing short stories,
and "Brightness Falls From the Air," published in 1985.

   Mrs. Sheldon served in the Army Air Corps in World War II and
later worked in photo intelligence for the Central Intelligence
Agency, her agent said.  [I understand her husband also had worked
for the CIA.]

   She started writing science fiction as a way to relax after
working on her doctoral dissertation.  She taught experimental
psychology and statistics at American University and at George
Washington University, both in Washington, D.C., from 1955 to 1968.

   She was the daughter of Mary Bradley, a World War II
correspondent who reported on German death camps and sold more than
35 books in her lifetime as a travel writer, said Ms. Kidd.

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 17:19:29 GMT
From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Wild Cards, Zelazny

From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Wayne Barber)
> There has been a lot of criticism of Zelazny's writing in the Wild
> Cards series, but no one has mentioned one aspect that bothered me
> quite a bit. It took me a long time to put my finger on it, but it
> finally hit me while reading Aces High: Zelazny copped out in
> creating his character.  He seems to have deliberately created
> Croyd in such a way that he doesn't have to write for the same
> character each time.  Maybe he didn't want to get trapped into
> creating a character that he would grow tired of.

   Croyd strikes me as an interesting character if developed right.
The fact that his powers change doesn't need to make him a different
character.  In fact, it shouldn't.  True, his abilities have
changed, but this doesn't mean that he as a person has changed.
(Now if he were to become schizophenic and start manifesting a new
personality with every change, that would get weird in a hurry.  It
would be interesting though...)  What this ought to mean is that he
has to change overall as a person to cope with this.  This ought to
reflect more into his life-style and thinking than shows in the
stories to date.  Sure, in the first one he has some problems with
it, but the simple physical precautions he sets up to cope ought
to be just the beginning.

   Living with a problem like this ought to have long-term
psychological consequences of some kind that just don't seem to be
developing.  He seems to have completely ignored this in the second
story in favor of the grotesque.  There just isn't really any other
way of describing the antics surrounding retrieving that body.  I
personally found the 2nd story a distinct letdown, coming from
Zelazny.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 87  00:47 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVMX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: ZELAZNY - JACK OF SHADOWS

Zelazny has indeed written one other Shadowjack story - it was
published in -The Illustrated Roger Zelazny- and titled
(unoriginally....) "Shadowjack".  I don't know if this is still in
print; it was originally released in both hard and soft cover,
oversized, I believe.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 1987 21:59 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_

There is another story published in _The Illustrated Zelazny_.  It
is called "Shadowjack".  My copy is an ACE (NY NY) paperback 1979.
It refers to a large format version in 1978 that I have not seen but
I believe in the same series as illustrated books by Delaney and
Moorcock.

The book also contains 4 other early stories. I would recommend this
book to anyone who can accept non-comic book illustrations.

There is also an "Amber Tapestry" which looks as if it would be
better in the larger format. The bits and pieces - including the
original set of trumps is (I think) faithful to the first set of
books.

what do other people think?
Dick Botting
Cal State San Bernardino
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 20:18:34 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Cyberpunk and some of its roots

>From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson)
>Recent postings on rec.arts.sf-lovers have been asking "What is
>Cyberpunk?"
>
>I consider Cyberpunk to be nothing new, authors such as William
>Gibson, Bruce Sterling and Walter Jon Williams are only writing
>what Alfred Bester, Samuel Delany et al have been writing for
>years! Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising cyberpunk - I'm one
>of its biggest fans... _The Mona Lisa Overdrive_ on order (only a
>month to go!), _Hard Wired_ read before it even got out in the US
>(British import shops are dead good!)

I've got "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones" fresh
in my mind, so I feel obligated to respond to your statements.

While it is true that this story is very much like cyberpunk (and
you are hardly the first person to notice this; Brian Aldiss
mentions it in a footnote in _Trillion Year Spree_), "Time..." is
not a cyberpunk story.  Cyberpunk arises from two main thrusts:
rebellion ("punk") and body- enhancement ("cyber"). One of the main
thrusts/goals/drives/effects of the cyberpunk movement is to shock
the Campbellians out of their long-held but obviously artificial
convention that people of 100 years hence are going to be just like
us--if not in belief and mores, then at least physically. But this
is becoming more and more obviously not true; with our ever-growing
understanding of exactly what makes the human machine operate,
bodily improvements are not only inevitable, but are likely to be
commonplace.

"Time...". for all of its rebellion and artistry and isolation, for
all of its attempts to render a society that obviously arose from
our own yet is very shockingly different, for all that it dances on
the cutting edge of life, does not address the question of
cybernetics. Bester does, in a few ways, but his approach to the
stories is veryt different from the current cyberpunk vogue; he is
more "literary", more concerned with those old verities of the heart
like "love and honor and courage and pity" than a typical cyberpunk.
(Please forgive my strong anti-punk bias here; to rephrase this last
sentence in a less insulting way, I just don't think Bester "feels"
like cyberpunk. Obviously, Mr. Bisson does.)

>But what is Cyberpunk?  ..... obviously, MIRRORSHADES! :-)
>
>By the way has anyone seen that Cyberpunk ideas are appearing in
>maistream SF? I've seen bits in _Sun's End_ and _Lifeburst_! (_The
>Cool War_ is a bit early for that, but...)

Cyberpunk is the new mainstream. _Mirrorshades_ was the best selling
original SF anthology of 1986 (in hardback anyway; _Wild Cards_
probably did better in sheer numbers). Gibson is one of the most
popular writers around (our store couldn't keep _Count Zero_ in
stock, and we keep re- ordering _Neuromancer_...). Sterling and
Shirley are being re-issued.  Overall, it's a growing movement, and
I'm very afraid that the humanists are going to be lost in a sea of
"hard-hitting, action-packed cyberpunk adventure" and fantasy
megologies.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 May 87 0816-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #251
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 May 87 0816-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #251
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 251

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Brust & Cherryh & Cook &
                     Dalmas & Friedman (2 msgs) &
                     Jones (3 msgs) & Rand

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 19:30:50 GMT
From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots

To the person reading Asimov robot novels..
   The biggest shame is that you, like me, didn't have the
opprotunity to read them all in their proper order. Try to get to
the pre-foundation trilogy before you read the last book in what is
probably the longest sci.fi. story ever written. For anyone
interested in undertaking my aforementioned reading assignment the
sequence goes:

I,Robot
The Caves of Steel
The Naked Sun
The Robots of Dawn
Robots and Empire
A Pebble in the Sky
The Currents of Space
The Stars Like Dust
Foundation
Foundation and Empire
Second Foundation
Foundation's Edge
would you believe the name of the last book has leaked out of my
head..sorry

Pete Clark

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 87 20:52:02 EDT
From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: brust (new book)

I just read "The Sun, The Moon, And The Stars", and liked it a lot.
If Brust considers it "experimental" (didn't seem very strange or
avant garde to me), I consider the experiment to be a success.

Despite being put out by Ace as an "adult fairy tale" the book
really contains no overt fantasy or science fiction elements. But
don't let that dissuade you....

In case Brust is reading this -- he asks the reader a question every
chapter, and I somehow feel obliged to answer: Tiles.

Brust uses one particular narrative technique fairly frequently
througout the works I've read, sometimes it works, and sometimes it
fails. This is to have the narrator address the reader more or less
directly in an aside. So far (thankfully), there have been no
conceits like pretending the narrator is writing his memoirs or
actually talking to someone (I dislike that), but think this kind of
thing often detracts from the storytelling, rupturing the suspension
of disbelief that the description and dialogue together produce.
Sometimes (like the onion metaphor bit in Jhereg or was it Yendi)
this works really well, possibly because it comes at the beginning
and ending of the book, chapter, or whatever, where there is a
natural break, but when I get the feeling someone is actually saying
something to me in the middle of some action I am rather put off. I
am a little ambivalent about the "Bones?" bit in TSTMATS, because it
does fit with the story in sort of "meta" way, but that's my
reaction, anyhow.

Anyhow, go out an buy the book.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 04:18:37 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!becky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Morgaine Stories *mild spoilers*

From: "Richard_W_Rodway.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM
>Some questions about Morgaine...
> I have just read what I could find of this series (_Gate of
>Ivrel_, _Well of Shiuan_ and _Fires of Azeroth_) and I have a
>couple of questions that someone out there may be able to answer.
> First: Are there any more Morgaine Stories?. These are the only
>ones I can find at present.

Carolyn is working on /possibly almost finished or even FINISHED
(gasp!)  the fourth novel.  I have heard that it is to be more from
Morgaine's point of view than Vanye's this time (something about
Vanye's story's been told...), but I've also heard the opposite.
Carolyn has hinted that their relationship will undergo some
changes, but she won't say in what way, so she could have been
referring to just about anything...  No other news so far; hopefully
we'll see something soon.  (She's guest at AD ASTRA in three weeks,
so I may have more news then.)

>Second: Does anyone know exactly how Morgaine seals the gates that
>she passes. She doesn't do it by carrying Changeling unsheathed
>into them (as far as I understand, this works, but has the
>unpleasant side effect of also destroying the Sword and the bearer
>:-)). In _Fires of Azeroth_ there is the suggestion that the gate
>is closed from a primary control center, but does this destroy, or
>merely deactivate them, and if the gate is just deactivated, what
>stops someone reactivating it. Just one functioning gate is enough
>to put civilisation in danger apparently.  Anyone know??  Richard
>Rodway

I don't... (Let me know if you hear something that isn't posted to
the net, okay?)...  I assumed that the fiddly stuff Morgaine did at
the `primary control center' involved setting a self-destruct for
sometime after her departure (perhaps the action of using the gate
one more time set it off...).  Then again... if there's noone
onworld who has the knowledge she carries about the Gates and their
original uses, the Gate onle needs deactivating; no one else'll be
able to get to it to reactivate it, right? :^)

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 16:15:17 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Wizard War

This is a book originally published in England under the title "The
Wizards and the Warriors".  The original title is a little more apt,
since most of the time the plot concerns relations between (oddly
enough) wizards and warriors.  On the other hand, the new title
isn't totally inapt, since the basic hook of the story is a conflict
between members of the Confederation of Wizards.  But the nice thing
about this book is that it isn't just a simple little quest story,
with a big confrontation at the end where the Good Guys triumph.
No, there are multitudenous plot twists, and the original quest
becomes somewhat moot halfway or so through, and the end sort of
trails off a little.  You know.... like real life does.  And it is
largely the homey real-life quality and the interesting characters
that make this book worthwhile.  I rather liked it.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 03:35:44 GMT
From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Review: _The Regiment_

Review: _The Regiment_ by John Dalmas

   This book starts with a cover blurb by someone who obviously
opened the book at random, and reached the wrong conclusion. The
book's plot includes a revolution on a planet nick-named "Kettle",
which is the only source of a substance believed to be necessary for
the survival of the Confederation, while the blurb says Kettle only
has soldiers as its sole resource.  No big deal. In the book
business, everybody knows that a frontal lobotomy is necessary to
become a cover blurb writer.
   In fact, I wouldn't even mention the cover blurb, except that the
insides of this story are almost as mangled as the outside is.
   This book throws together several old plot elements: mysticism
and war (a' la' _Dune_), mass conditioning of the population, a
conspiracy to end the conspiracy, and so forth. The problem is that
it does not work. The mysticism seems more Yuppyish than mystical.
The conspiracy doesn't seem so conspiratorial when you find out that
just about every top government official, including the Emperor, is
a member of it. In fact, about the only part of the book that DOES
work, is the war part. It does have some good ole' fashioned sock'em
action. Although some parts are soooo predictable... 100 pages
before it happened, I predicted that the protagonist was going to go
back to the planet Kettle, be captured, and "discover their secret"
(gee, how's that for standard plot elements? James Bond lives!).
   Most of the characters are constructed of cardboard. Our
protagonist, for example, seems to believe in nothing, has no
outstanding qualities besides a "sinewy body", and at the end of the
book, goes through a surprisingly easy de-conditioning and
conversion to "The Conspiracy" and un-mystical mysticism, by some
slick-talking aristocrat who reminded me of none other than P.T.
Barnun...
   Despite the flaws, it is, generally, good "escapist" type fiction
in the tradition of the late E.E. "Doc" Smith, so I give it two
stars -- readable, but below average.

Eric Green
CS student
University of SW Louisiana
Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg%usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 03:39:00 GMT
From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Review: _In Conquest Born (*SPOILER?*)

Review: _In Conquest Born_, by C.S. Friedman:

   The first thing you notice is that this book has two different
front covers: One with a white-and-blue clad female, and one with a
black-clad male holding a sword.
   Which leads you to the next picture: That of two societies, in
perpetual conflict, occupying moral extremes, built by two different
types of conquest: one, by the conquest of their fellow tribesmen
via ruthlessness, duplicity, power, and beauty, and the other, by
escape from oppressors and the conquest of a hostile planet by
changing themselves to fit the planet, instead of changing the
planet to fit themselves.
   This is a large book, and sometimes, plot elements seem to get
lost in the wind, or perhaps just forgotten from the memory of weary
readers :-). But that really is nothing. The thing that drives this
book is NOT the plot, but rather, the characters. There are two main
protagonists, whose character is finely sketched in the first few
pages of the book, not by the usual bludgeon of your
universal-narrator speechifying, but rather, by bringing in scenes
from their life that helped shape them into the people that they
are. There is also a large cast of secondary characters, who are no
less finely drawn as the book passes, although not in such detail.
It makes the "suspension of disbelief" very easy, to see these
characters acting, in general, in a manner fitting their unique
personality.
   _In Conquest Born_ is not perfect. Both plot and characterization
sometimes have flaws, although there are no gaping holes.  It is not
a five-star rating of "a classic". But still, it is a Very Good
Book, especially from writer who apparently has little experience,
and you could do worse. In fact, after finishing the book, I almost
immediately started re-reading it.  The only other two books I've
done THAT to are _Dune_, and _Ender's Game_....  which puts it
pretty high on the chart. I only hope that the sequel isn't as sappy
as _Speaker to the Dead_, because I'd much like to read further
works by this author.

   Rating: Four stars: ****+
   Very Good, Much Above Average.

Eric Green
CS student
University of SW Louisiana
Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg%usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 04:42:04 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (no real spoilers)

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>Review: _In Conquest Born_, by C.S. Friedman:
>   The first thing you notice is that this book has two different
>front covers: One with a white-and-blue clad female, and one with a
>black-clad male

Actually, if you look at the back cover of the book you'll see that
they're both the same picture, just one is printed backwards.

Without responding to Eric's review point by point, I'll just add my
own few observations.  First, I thought that for a book in which
most of the plot had to do with characters, the characterization was
a bit flimsy.  Not that I didn't have a good feeling for the main
characters by the end, but I didn't feel as though I knew any of
them inside, and that was what I would have liked.
    One advantage that I see in this book is that it is written in
episodes.  Sometimes C.S. Friedman sidetracks for what seems an
entirely irrelevant episode, and sometimes falls back on the tennis
court style of showing little bits of each side in succession.  In
any case, some of these I'm certain could almost stand on their own
as short stories.  Without going into detail, there were several
episodes in the book that were just outstanding.  However, there
were also those that bordered on the utterly dumb.
    In any case, there's enough good stuff in there if you read the
book, and while it may not be of the caliber of Dune, it might be
just a bit more readable on a sunny day when you have nothing to do
in the afternoon.

>     Rating: Four stars: ****+
>  Very Good, Much Above Average.

Well, I'll give it three stars [out of five, right?], but it has its
five star and its one star moments.

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 16:34:11 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Archer's Goon

This is a book by an author I'm not familiar with, Diana Wynne
Jones.  What initially attracted me to it was the cover art, a large
Goon in a kitchen chair eating a slice of cake with a switchblade,
and sipping a cup of tea with his pinkie extended.  He is the
titular character.  For once, the cover is pretty appropriate, and
even the short cover blurb captures the spirit of the story:

   He was Large, Ugly, and not leaving their kitchen.
   He was a wizard's enforcer.  He was... Archer's Goon.

The story is (for the most part) told from the viewpont of a
thirteen year old boy, and its tone is really that of a juvenile.
In fact, I think it'd be a good story for the young adolescent.  But
it has plenty of humor and an engaging mystery plot, and is thus
interesting to the adult as well.  I liked it quite a lot, and I'm
glad, for once, to have given in to the attractive packaging.

Can anyone comment on her other book, "Fire and Hemlock"?
Worthwhile?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 19:17:46 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Archer's Goon

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>This ("Archer's Goon") is a book by an author I'm not familiar
>with, Diana Wynne Jones...
>
>Can anyone comment on her other book, "Fire and Hemlock"?
>Worthwhile?

She's also the author of "Charmed Life", which (if I recall
correctly) is also told from a juvenile point of view.  Other than
that I don't recall much about the book; I found it average.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 02:17:51 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!starfire!brust@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven K. Zoltan
From: Brust)
Subject: Re: Archer's Goon

Everything by Diana Wynn Jones is worth reading.  FIRE AND HEMLOCK
may be her best.  I also loved...well, everything of hers I've read.

skzb

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 87 08:46:36 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Limitations of the human mind

KFL@AI writes:
>There is no evidence that the human mind has any fundamental blind
>spots.

Oh?  Then where do Rand's followers come from?

Cheap shot joking aside, consider the question of the consistency of
measurable cardinals.  I see no reason why apriori an alien species
that sees them as trivially clearly as we see omega cannot exist.
Similarly, it would not surprise me were there aliens who considered
the Axiom of Determinacy to be intuitively obvious, and wondering
just how we could ever come up with that ultrabaroque Axiom of
Choice.

Has Rand figured these out already?  Am I missing something trivial?

Sigh.  The only science fiction writer to date who might even broach
the above questions is Rudy Rucker, and I found his fiction
soporific.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 May 87 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #252
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 May 87 0828-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #252
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 252

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 05:42:33 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!bph_cwjb@RUTGERS.EDU (William J.
From: Bogstad)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL

barry@borealis.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
> [much deleted]
>My own guess is that we see RAH's attitudes undergoing evolution in
>this book. His later novels often do address this issue directly,
>and leave no doubt that RAH's not in the gay-bashing business.
> [much deleted]

An example...

From a recent RAH book (C) 1985 "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls",

   "Galahad was careful; the kitten was not disturbed.  It is
   possible that Galahad kisses as well as Minerva does.  Not
   better.  But just as well.  Once I decided to enjoy the
   inevitable I did enjoy it.  Tertius is not Iowa, Boondock is not
   Grinnell; there was no longer any reason to be manacled by the
   customs of a long-dead tribe."

These are some of the thoughts of the main character Richard Ames as
he wakes up to find himself in bed with first a woman and a man who
both wish to kiss him.  From the book it is obvious that this isn't
something that this character usually does, but he is willing to
make a go at it.  I suppose it should be noted that it doesn't
progress any farther then just a kiss.  (It also should be noted
that it isn't one of RAH's best books.)

Bill Bogstad
bogstad@hopkins-eecs-bravo.arpa
jhunix!green!bill
(301)338-8019

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 10:52:51 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: heinlein homophobia

gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes:
> If I recall correctly, (it's been a while) Heinlein's
> "asexual/ambisexual" ideas (like the ones we see in _Time_Enough_
> and already discussed to death here) come to dominate once Mike's
> religion is founded. In the inner sanctum love is abundant and on
> the whole gender free.

Actually, it's difficult to read "I Will Fear No Evil" and decide
that Heinlein is anything like homophobic.  This is not to say he is
entirely comfortable with the idea or all that graceful in
describing homosexual or any sexual relations, but then how many of
us readers are anyway?  Heinlein manages to transcend his his own
upbringing, but he still but human...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 22:05:59 GMT
From: bucsb.bu.edu!madd@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim "Jack" Frost)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

rjd@nancy.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>>mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
>He [Heinlein] wrote it, didn't he? Seems like a fairly decent
>representation of the man's writing is to read something he
>wrote...

A single example of anything is a poor scale to rate something on.
For example, if the first heart transplant failed, who's to say
subsequent ones wouldn't save lives?  The same applies.  Authors can
get better (or worse) with time, so a single example is poor way to
judge.

>>  _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ is probably the least
>>characteristic of all of Heinlein's works.  It doesn't follow the
>>usual patterns and ideas of his books at all.
>
>So it's experimental on his behalf...

I don't think either of these comments is correct.  In all of the
RAH books that I have read, Heinlein seemed to be pointing at things
in our society and discussing them.  [Actually, I don't think that
_The_Number_of_the_Beast_ was like this, but that book was
ridiculous in my opinion.]  He may or may not agree with what he
sees, but he points out that there are other viewpoints.  For
examples, take SIASL, _Starship Troopers_, and _Friday_.  I could
use more examples, but these are good enough.

SIASL talked about many of the mores in our society.  Heinlein
ripped most of them apart.  He showed us just how silly most of them
were _FROM_THE_POINT_OF_VIEW_OF_A_THIRD_PARTY_.  They may seem to
make sense to us, but would someone from a totally different social
background find them so?  Probably not, as Mike seems to show.

ST seemed to talk about war and our feelings about war.  It's been
awhile since I've read this, so I'm fuzzy, but it seemed to me that
he constructed a completely different society -- one that rotated
around the military.  It's not a new concept, it has existed in
cultures before.  He just showed us a more modern example.  Another
viewpoint.

_Friday_, my favorite of his works (for many reasons), talked about
inclusion and exclusion from society.  How often did Friday jump
back to exclusion of APs from society?  About every other paragraph,
it seemed to me.  He was showing us a vital aspect of society -- we
oppress creatures for reasons that may not make any sense.  An AP
was supposed to be indistinguishable from a human being.  But they
were always looked down upon.  Why?  Heinlein doesn't say, and I
couldn't tell you either.  But why did/do we treat other human
"races" as inferior?  Certainly not because of intelligence.
Certainly not from a biological standpoint.  Certainly not because
of physical ability.  Hmm -- why might we do it?  Heinlein merely
points out that the problem exists, and gives a modern perspective
of it.  He also attacks some of the same mores as he did when he
wrote SIASL, again through a figure that does not understand the way
our society is put together.  Another view on society.

>>Heinlein didn't get to be the dean of science fiction for nothing.
>>He's good.
>
>I think you got those sentences mixed up, it should read:
>   "Heinlein didn't get science fiction. He's good for nothing."

No, he's good at doing what he wants to do.  I like the way he
writes.  He's not my favorite author, but he does a good job of
getting his point across in novel ways.  In addition, SIASL is a
fantastic work in its allusions to the Bible.  The first time I read
it, I missed that.  The second, I caught it and was amazed at how
well he had done it.  It's a great literary work, although it's not
really what I would call "science fiction", and perhaps this is why
so many dislike it.

>OK...OK...so I'm being a little harsh, but I object to two things:
>   (a) claiming you can't judge an author on one work
>   (b) Heinlein.

I agree with (a), and (b) is a personal opinion to which you are
entitled, but don't go discouraging people from reading his works.
Maybe someone will look beyond the story line and see something
else.  I did.  I enjoy [most of] his books for that.  While I won't
say "you *have* to read Heinlein", I also won't discourage reading
it.

>Heinlein's writings have always been (to me) sexist and fascist...

Just remember, this is your opinion.  Others may not see it the same
way.  If you aren't sure, just read a few of his books and decide
for yourself.

BTW, I sometimes wonder if authors really meant what we pick out of
their books.  For instance, I have said "Heinlein talks about...",
but did he really?  I'd give a lot to ask him!

Jim Frost
UUCP: ..!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!madd
ARPA: madd@bucsb.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 May 87 16:24:01-PDT
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: Heinlein

SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"

From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
>Heinlein's works have often seemed a bit dubious of homosexuality
>to me. My impression is generally that H. seems uncomfortable with
>the natural implications of the theories he likes to espouse (if
>friendly sex is great, gay sex is going to get in there too). Of
>course, Heinlein's own feelings are not relevant; it's what's in
>his books that matters, and that's what I'm trying to stick to
>addressing.

   If my memory serves me correctly, there are quotes from the
Notebooks of Lazarus Long, [_TIME_ENOUGH_FOR_LOVE_] which address
this issue.  Things such as "Any society not based on women and
children first..."

>It's worth remembering that this is Jill speaking, not the
>narrator.  Jill can be a homophobe without the narrator being one,
>and the narrator can be one without the author being one.

   PARDON ME?  Is everyone who prefers heterosexual relationships
necessarily a homophobe?  I've heard of the if-you-aren't-with-me-
you-are-against-me theory, but come now!  And i won't even talk
about recent developments which provide very good reasons for
exclusive monogamy - FRIENDLY SEX, INDEED!

From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold)
>And the line about "very female women"?!!!  Gag!  What other kinds
>are there?  Heinlein makes me want to puke.

   It seems certain that RAH here fell to the same confusion which
pervades most of the rest of our society - that the terms male and
masculine (as well as female and feminine) are equivalent and
interchangable.  Male and female describe anatomic attributes.
Feminine and masculine describe attributes that are mainly derived
from the social environment or at least assigned to those attributes
as part of the social structure.  While a "very female woman" would
about have to mean she had an XXX chromosome arrangement, a very
feminine woman has a different meaning in the US than in Tonga, both
of which differ from the meaning in 5th Century B.C. China.

dale

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 13:00:01 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!jeff1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Women & "Glory Road"

My problem with this book is that it was yet another one where the
woman wasn't truly happy until she got pregnant.  It seems to me
that Heinlein's strong women characters really only want to have a
baby.

Let's see: Empress of 20 universes wants to settle down with Sam and
have a baby.  (Actually, the baby's more important than him.)  How
about Friday?  Tough secret agent type but unfulfilled until she
settled down with her (sort of) baby.  Probably every female
character in Stranger in a Strange Land.  A man's (name forgotten)
brain goes into a woman's body, and immediately he/she wants to have
a baby.  There are probably more examples but I can't think of any
offhand.

The last example brings something else up.  Heinlein's books have
female homosexuality, but not male.  I guess it's supposed to make
the women seem more "warm and loving", which seems to be the main
role for most of the women.  Most male SF writers seem to have
cardboard or non-existent female characters, but I don't like
Heinlein's attempts much either.

Jeff Sparkes
{utai,seismo,ihnp4}!garfield!jeff1
jeff@garfield.mun.cdn   via ubc.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 21:05:46 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!sask!zaphod!wolfl@RUTGERS.EDU (Wolf
From: Lunscher)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

mark@cci632.UUCP (Mark Stevans) writes:
> I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
> in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
> will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate
> Heinlein".  I will never again read anything he has written.
>
>I do not wish to detail my opinion of SIASL, because I probably
>couldn't do it justice.  Can someone more literate than myself
>explain, in one thousand words or less, why SIASL is such a
>supremely offensive tale?

I wish I could understand what your problem is.  About ten years ago
at a Vancouver S.F. con. a fan speaker voiced similar dislike for
"Stranger" calling it flatly "a bad book" without ever explaining
why, as though it was obvious.  I think much of the audience was,
like myself, stunned into silence.

As for myself, "Stranger" is one of my favorites of all S.F. largely
because of the philosophy of sexual tolerance it advocates.  A
tolerance I've always found lacking in our North American culture,
making those of us more liberal in our values often feel like
stangers in a strange land (though the existance of the people
behind rec.nude gives me some hope).

Of course there are also other aspects to the book.  I usually judge
a book by its concepts.  In this case one of the key concepts was
the cultural impact of heterosexuality as opposed to the asexuality
of the Martians (so to speak, they were female first and later male
when mature, a strategy used by some fish).  In this case the
consequences were that sex meant little to the Martians, but served
as an important channel of communications and bonding among humans,
if they showed the tolerance to use it.

One concept that many probably took issue with is that life is not
really that precious.  Note that Mike never took life until he
matured, and then found killing easy when necessary.  I'm sure many
believe that maturity should work the other way around, making
killing more difficult.  Some have even suggested that Charles
Manson modeled his ideas after this book, but I refuse to judge an
author by his effect on a warped mind.  My feelings have come to
align themselves with Heinlein here.  Life shouldn't be taken
needlessly; but all things must pass and in a billion years the
universe will still be young but we will be forgotten.  Besides, I
have a suspicion, alluded to by many authors including Heinlein,
that there is really only one life, one mind, peering out of all
these billions of eyes.  Just a suspicion.

So if you're puritan, pacifist, or pro-life, I can see that you may
have some problem with this book.

Wolf

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 03:14:52 GMT
From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo) says:
> Heinlein's writings have always been (to me) sexist and fascist...

Heinlein and sexism: True, many of Heinleins novels have been pretty
sexist.  Not intentionally, I don't believe, because at times he
makes some pretty tough efforts to overcome his societal
conditioning (e.g. the female characters in _Time Enough for Love_,
the group sex in _Stranger in a Strange Land_). But to quote someone
else, "the poor man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint."

_Friday_? Sexist? What kind of drugs are you on? This is the ONLY
Heinlein novel with a female protagonist who's semi-female and not
just some sex object for all the men to use as a lust-pillow. Of
course, the fact that she can break the arms off of "normal" people
takes away from that, a bit, but she isn't just the usual "man in
woman's dress" sort of gal that you'd expect from Heinlein. As for
Hilda in _The Number of the Beast_, she always did seem to me to be
more a stereotype of "what if you took your average housewife and
force-fed her with encyclopedias"...

Heinlein and fascism: _Starship Troopers_ had a strong central
government composed of veterans. _Stranger in a Strange Land_ had a
government similiar to ours (and really was reminiscent of
Watergate, huh, considering that it was written 10 years earlier?).
_TMIAHM_ had the lunar "anarchy". _Time Enough for Love_ similiarly
had an anarchic government for the planet Lazarus & friends
eventually ended up on,to *GET AWAY FROM A STRONG CENTRAL
GOVERNMENT*. A strong, fascist central government is generally
treated as a Bad Thing in novels like _Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
_Time Enough for Love_, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, _Friday_
(remember, the way she ended up where she did because a fascist
dictator of a planet had emplanted her with his offspring and hired
agents to bring her there and kill her), and in other of his books.

So nice try on the fascism charge, but Heinlein's books are often
(almost always, in fact) against strong central government.
Difficult to be fascist when you disagree with the concept of a
central government.

You probably hit Heinlein on the broadside with the sexism charge.
He makes many valiant attempts, starting with _Stranger in a Strange
Land_ and further, but I think the words of another poster are most
fitting... "the poor man just didn't have a clue".

Eric Green
CS student
University of SW Louisiana
Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg
elg%usl.CSNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 May 87 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #253
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 May 87 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #253
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 253

Today's Topics:

                 Books - E.E. "Doc" Smith (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 87 09:31:12 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Doc Smith

You have to think of the Lensman and Skylark books like 50's rock
and roll.  It can never happen again (except as parody), it wasn't
stylistically sophisticated, but my, wasn't the energy there and
didn't it move?

People also seem to have forgotten that Doc Smith wrote up into the
mid 1960's.  It seems to me that women played a more important role
in his later stories.  I remember them as Heinleinesque in the
subspace books (_Subspace Explorers_ and the posthumous book whose
name I forget released just a year or two ago).  Also, I think the
woman in the initial Family D'almbert (sp?) story was an equal
partner.  (I thought this story one of Doc's best; I didn't much
like what Stephin Goldin did with his followups though).

Is the original _Skylark of Space_ available anywhere?  The Pyramid
edition I have was "specially revised by the author".  I have seen
sections of the original that were substantially different.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 18:45:21 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently
>left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far
>too controversial (read "obscene") for its time.  Although no one
>but Smith's executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert
>Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the
>Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful
>mates, marry each other.  Incest is best, eh?

Good lord. (Or maybe 'Gracious me!' :-) ).

Can you give a source for this info? As a rumor it's fascinating,
but as a substantiated rumor it would be even more so...

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 21:55:14 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

About Clio Costigan nee Marsden: It should be noted that (1) it is
hinted at the end of FIRST LENSMAN that she wasn't included because
the book was getting too long (remember, FIRST LENSMAN wasn't
serialized), and (2) she had a very active (and fairly strong, for
the time) part in TRIPLANETARY on Nevia.

I have to admit, it's about time that people discussed this series
on the almighty Net!  :-)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 11:13:08 GMT
From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU (Lawrence
From: F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: The Lensman Series

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>>Doc Smith said that the real meat of the story was in _The
>>Children of the Lens_ (the last book)--that the others were more
>>or less prologue.
> CHILDREN OF THE LENS is not the last book in the series; the last
> book is called MASTERS OF THE VORTEX. I last read it many years
> ago, but I ...  If memory serves me, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX takes
> place considerably after the rest of the series, and deals with
> very different sorts of issues.

Internal evidence in _Masters of the Vortex_ (characters such as Kim
Kinnison appearing in the story; place settings; general technology)
suggests that _Masters_ occurs somewhere after _Second Stage
Lensman_ but before or possibly during _Children of the Lens_

Indeed, the story lines are much different.  _Masters_ deals with
the lens only as a secondary plot device, somewhat like a piece of
technology that exists, so it must be used.  The actual plot:

****** SPOILER ******

The actual plot revolves around the removal of 'atomic vortices'
(not well defined in the book) and a race of creatures (whose name I
forget) that use the vortices as 'breeding tanks'.

Secondarily, it revolves around inherent power of mind.  The
implication here is that inherent power of mind can be SUPERIOR to
the artificial power of mind produced by Arisians and a lens.

That's one of the reasons I always wondered if 'Doc' Smith really
wrote the book or if it was 'edited' by someone.

Lawrence F. Strickland
St. Petersburg Junior College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
akgua!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry
Phone: +1 813 341 4705

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87  23:07:43 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Lensmen

As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently left
a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far too
controversial (read "obscene") for its time.  Although no one but
Smith's s executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert
Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the
Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful mates,
marry each other.  Incest is best, eh?

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 16:23:15 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently
>left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far
>too controversial (read "obscene") for its time.  Although no one
>but Smith's executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert
>Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the
>Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful
>mates, marry each other.  Incest is best, eh?

In CotL, there is a hint of the possibility.  There is a dance scene
where one of the girls, I forget which (it's been quite a while
since I last read it), is bemoaning the lack of attractive males,
then decides to dance with big brother Kit, who she finds VERY
manly, etc....

There is (was?) also a small-press reference book, 'The Worlds of
Doc Smith', a concordance of the Lensmen & Skylark series, where I
recall seeing mentioned under 'Children of the Lens' something along
the lines of 'It is assumed that Kit mated with his sisters', etc.

Bob Halloran
UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 02:42:12 GMT
From: seismo!sun!texsun!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael
From: Todd)
Subject: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books

john13@garfield.UUCP writes:
>"The Dragon Lensman" is the only Lens book I have ever read. I
>thought it was all the things and more that people have been
>complaining about. You can't just say it's old, or pulp fiction, or
>whatever: I read a shelf-full of 30+ yrs old SF from the library
>when I was a kid, and none of it was as bad as that! "He noticed
>that the scientist wore mismatched socks, and immediately deduced
>that the universe was in danger. Alien beings attacked them
>suddenly, and were beaten. The universe was saved!" etc.

  It should be noted that "The Dragon Lensman" is NOT by Doc Smith,
author of the original Lensman series.  It's by David Kyle.  It's
not 30+ year old pulp fiction--it's 1980 vintage.  Kyle's sequel,
"Lensman from Rigel", was even more incomprehensible.  I'm still not
sure what all those black holes and Ordovik crystals had to do with
anything.  I'm not sure what universe Kyle is writing about, but it
isn't the one Doc Smith wrote about.  It just looks like the same
one to the casual observer.
   Incidentally, Kyle isn't the only person to write (or attempt to
write) stories in the Lensman universe.  William Ellern wrote a
couple of stories, "New Lensman" and "Triplanetary Agent", set in
the Lensman universe at around the time of First Lensman.  They were
interesting stories and they fit well within the universe set up by
Smith--they didn't introduce bizarre new elements that had never
been seen in the Lensman universe before.  Alas, these stories
didn't get widely distributed -- the only place I've seen them is
serialized in the back of old Perry Rhodan issues.  (Forry Ackerman
stuck all kinds of interesting stuff back there!).  Does anyone know
if the stories were ever published elsewhere or if Ellern's proposed
sequel "Legion of the Gray Lensmen" ever saw print?

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 03:03:00 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>   Incidentally, Kyle isn't the only person to write (or attempt to
>write) stories in the Lensman universe.  William Ellern wrote a
>couple of stories, "New Lensman" and "Triplanetary Agent", set in
>the Lensman universe at around the time of First Lensman.  They
>were interesting stories and they fit well within the universe set
>up by Smith--they didn't introduce bizarre new elements that had
>never been seen in the Lensman universe before.  Alas, these
>stories didn't get widely distributed -- the only place I've seen
>them is serialized in the back of old Perry Rhodan issues.  (Forry
>Ackerman stuck all kinds of interesting stuff back there!).  Does
>anyone know if the stories were ever published elsewhere or if
>Ellern's proposed sequel "Legion of the Gray Lensmen" ever saw
>print?

Well, there was a story titled Moon Prospector which appeared as the
_cover story_ in the April 1966 issue of Analog.

By the way, the "intro" to the story includes a reproduction of a
note from Doc Smith authorizing Ellern to set stories in the Lensman
universe!!!!

In my opinion the Smith estate did hiis memory a grave disservice by
allowing the David Kyle atrocities! Like his characters, Doc Smith
used "precionist grade English". Contrast this with Kyle's writing.
The intro to his second book has such barabarism as "the forces of
evilness" (bleeccchhh!).

Doc obviously believed in Abosolute Good and Absolute Evil. To even
write such lines as Kyle did shows a fundamental lack of
understanding of Doc's universe.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1987 16:20:12-EDT
From: wyzansky@NADC
Subject: E.E. "Doc" Smith

From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU
> In addition to the standard series: Triplanetary, First Lensman,
> Grey Lensman, and Second Stage Lensman, there were two other books
> published.  One was _Master of the Vortex_ (a sort of side-story)
> and the other was _Children of the Lens_.  These were published (I
> think) after 'Doc' Smiths death, and I've always wondered just how
> much of them he wrote.  _Children of the Lens_ is close, but
> _Master of the Vortex_ doesn't really 'feel' like his writing.
> Does anyone know??

When I first read the other Lensman universe book, _Master of the
Vortex_, I also had doubts that it was written by Doc Smith.  The
language matches, but this was supposed to be in roughly the _Second
Stage Lensman_ time frame and I kept thinking that if this clown is
a Six, the highest ever measured, then would Kimball Kinnison and
the other Second Stage Lensmen be Thirties or Fifties?

_Children of the Lens_, on the other hand, has more of the feel of
of the series and does continue the story and fit in in a logical
way.  The differences are mainly due, I suspect, to the fact that
the earlier books were written as serials while _Children_ was
written to be published as a novel.

In general, the Lensman series was good, shoot-them-up Space Opera.
Doc Smith's (unofficial) title was "King of the Planet Busters".  In
each of his series (or single books), the weapons and abilities got
bigger and bigger.  But, he wasn't unique in that era.  Read some of
John Campbell's stories from the period before he took over
Astounding.  He was writing in a very similar vein to Doc Smith.

Doc Smith's use of language is amazing, even if it corny beyond
belief by present-day standards.  When one of his Skylark thousand
rows of apple trees.", I was hooked.

In addition to _The Dragon Lensman_ and _Lensman from Rigel_,
mentioned by seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim
Meritt) Duncan Kyle has completed his trilogy with _The Z Lensman_,
focusing on Nadreck, the third non-human Second Stage lensman.

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 19:35:23 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles@RUTGERS.EDU (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books

leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>Doc obviously believed in Abosolute Good and Absolute Evil. To even
>write such lines as Kyle did shows a fundamental lack of
>understanding of Doc's universe.

Unfortunately for you, your paragraph here shows your own lack of
understanding of Doc's universe.  I've just been re-reading the
Lensman books.  In #3 "First Lensman", in a conversation with
Mentor, Virgil Samms discovers that Mentor does NOT believe in
Absolute Good/Evil.  It is quite clearly stated.

To the person who complained that the books were 'wooden', that
might be said of the first book, "Triplanetary", but I don't think
you could say so for the remaining books.  The first book also had a
lot of "John...Martha...John...Martha...John...Martha...John...
Martha".  :-) You know, the scene in the old flame movies where the
two lovers are running at each other across a wind swept grassy
field calling each others name!  (ugh...)

Enjoy!

Edwin Wiles
seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles
Net Express, Inc.
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 02:17:49 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Rich Garrett)
Subject: Re: Seventh Lensman book (Was: "Mr. Saavik")

Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>As for the unnamed, outlined Lensmen book, E.E. Smith evidently
>left a nearly complete manuscript which was considered to be far
>too controversial (read "obscene") for its time.  Although no one
>but Smith's executor has evidently seen the manuscript, Robert
>Heinlein speculated that the controversial part was that the
>Kinnison children, unable to find equally gifted and powerful
>mates, marry each other.  Incest is best, eh?

Given that they were the result of a breeding program, it makes
sense.  Two quotes are relevant here.

Robert A. Heinlein, "Larger Than Life" in EXPANDED UNIVERSE:

``The Lensman novel [sic] was left unfinished; there was to be at
least a seventh volume.  As always, Doc had worked it out in great
detail but never (to my knowledge) wrote it down... because it was
unpublishable -- then.  But he told me the ending, orally and in
private.

``I shan't repeat it; it is not my story.  Possibly somewhere there
is a manuscript -- I @i[hope] so!  All I will say is that the ending
develops by inescapable logic from clues in CHILDREN OF THE LENS.''

From CHILDREN OF THE LENS (one of those clues?), Berkley paperback
of July 1982, page 69, end of paragraph 2, regarding Kay, Kat, Con,
and Cam:

``They each had dreamed of a man who would be her own equal,
physically and mentally, but it had not yet occurred to any of them
that one such man already existed.''

Case closed.  (Actually, I hope the discussion continues!)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 26 May 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #254
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 May 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #254
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 254

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 04:12:05 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart28.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (Class Account)
Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?!

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>Dan Flak writes:
>>Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact,
>>there's a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien
>>clearly displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic
>>measure to overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture.
>While perhaps better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel
>in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly
>call this a "strong feminist line."  After all, what happens to
>Eowen?  She falls in love once, but because "the man of her dreams"
>doesn't return her affection she decides to go seek death in battle
>(motivational problems, but so far, okay).  She fights in battle,
>does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the rest of the war in
>the houses of healing (still okay, so far).  However, what happens
>to her there?  She falls for her "true love", and decides she no
>longer wants to be a "sheild maiden", but will devote herself to
>healing (as I recall).  Now what do we have here as a tale of
>female maturation?  Only irresponsible adolescents want to play
>male "games", and that "real women" want to do traditionally
>feminine, service-oriented things.
>
>Granted for when Tolkien was writing, it's not bad, but it's not
>that great by current standards.

Feminism does not have to imply the <exclusion> of women from
stereotypically female professions....I find the attitude that if I
decide to pursue a career like nursing or homemaking I am "not a
proper feminist" every bit as annoying as the attitude that if I
decide to become a nuclear physicist I am "not a proper woman".  (I
am in fact a geneticist, and am occasionally criticized for
"wasting" my math abilities on the life sciences (not as often
lately, thank God.))
     I thought that Eowen's actions were very much in character.
This person has been raised in a culture that glorifies combat, but
held back from it all her life for reasons beyond her control.
Naturally she idealizes and glorifies war.  Then she actually
experiences it, and finds, just as a man in her situation would,
that war is hell.  She loses her father, nearly loses her brother,
and is badly hurt herself.  Is her sudden revulsion for war, her
sudden commitment to healing, so hard to understand?  As I recall,
Faramir behaved in much the same way, willingly handing over the
Stewardship to Aragorn in the hope of being able to live in peace
with Eowen.
     The tone which many readers, including myself, find offensive
in books like the Lensman series is the attitude that men are suited
for the great adventures, the great accomplishments, and women by
their nature are not.  But that doesn't mean that it's wrong to show
a female secretary, even a stupid blonde secretary.  Such people
exist, and are fair game for writers.  Just don't pretend that no
other women exist, or that it is the stupid blonde's pair of X
chromosomes that make her fit for nothing but taking dictation and
making coffee.
     Sorry about the flames, but I feel strongly about this....

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 22:39:32 GMT
From: wright@gitpyr.gatech.edu (DAVID WRIGHT)
Subject: Tolkien

  The discussion of feminism in Tolkien (or lack thereof) and in
specific the character of Eowen provoked me to reflect on why I have
grown more concerned about the underlining messages in Tolkien's
writings, a collection which I have enjoyed over the years.  I did
get a sense of anti-feminism when I first read of Eowen-- its
alright for a girl to be a tomboy as long as she realises her
mistake and settles down.  I will reread the book and see if that
impression holds up given the discussion here.  I was more depressed
by the extreme value placed on proper lineage.  Faramir, no matter
how just, wise or fair was by birth unworthy of being king over
Gondor and meekly submitted to Aragorn.  Perhaps it comes with the
turf of having a king, but there are enough other characters who
have proper ancestry-- Bilbo and Frodo are both descendents of Old
Took for example-- that I take it to be a major theme.  The whole
distinction between high elves and dark elves, descendents of
Numinor( sp? ) and wicked men of the Harad, and even the three types
of hobbits seem to indicate a stress on ethnicity(genetic) being
more important to an individual's character than nuture, parenting,
education, free will or any other factor.  Of course, maybe I'd only
be happy if a people's revolution overthrew the patriarchal
monarchist Aragorn and his capitalist lackey dogs and instituted an
egalitarian paradise without discrimination on the basis of gender,
race, breed, sexual orientation, religion.... ( |-) ).  Still, even
considering his time period, Tolkien strikes me as cool toward
egalitarianism and perhaprs elitist in that certain folks are born
to rule.  Individuals may fail to live up to their potention ( hence
the fall of Numinor ( sp? ) ) but still, a proper leader needs
proper background and pedigree.

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 17:57:54 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion

Let me first say that anything of Mr. Milne's article I have not
commented on, I agree with whole-heartedly.

Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU> writes:
>In fact, of course, a major point of the whole story is that [The
>Shire] is not [safe, secure, and normal], and that, if its safety
>is to be assured, great sacrifice is going to be required of its
>inhabitants.  Frodo himself says essentially this to Sam when he
>finally leaves for the Grey Havens at the end.

Not only this, but he also says in no uncertain terms: You can't go
home again.  His comments to Sam include (something like) "I thought
I could settle down again in the Shire.  But I can't".  He had been
changed too much by his experiences ("I am wounded by knife, tooth,
and sting.  Where shall I find peace?")

>>I don't know about that; I find the ruins of Isengard to be one of
>>the most striking images in the who thing.
>
>My own vote is for the terrifying descriptions of Mordor, and of
>the hideous plain to its north.  But I know just what you mean.

Well, not to denigrate these others, but I think that the
description of the wail of the Nazgul chills me the most.

>.... Furthermore, his personal deeds are numerous: slaying the
>Balrog, distracting Sauron while Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen,

I don't know about this.  This implies that anytime someone wields
the Ring, they might be spotted by Sauron. I would refer you to
passages (sorry, no references offhand) of Sauron's eye roving
around the world, trying to find his lost Ring, even when Frodo was
traversing the Morgai.  Let's also remember that Sauron only spotted
Frodo when he claimed the Ring for his own.

>Would Saruman otherwise have been defeated?

Well, technically speaking, he had been defeated since the Ents had
effectively leveled Isengard.  But it is true that his Orcs would
not have been killed at the Battle of Helm's Deep.  And it is also
true that Saruman would still have his staff.  Semantics, I think.

>uniting the City's last defence when Denethor succumbed,

Since when did Denethor actually COMMAND the field of battle?
Denethor really did nothing while the battle was actually taking
place.  The image I got was that the armies of Minas Tirith were
doing what they had to do, under the command of Prince Imrahil and
Faramir (until he was wounded, of course).

Also, all that Gandalf did was to bar the way into Minas Tirith
after Grond had shattered the Great Gate until the Riders of Rohan
made it to the Pelennor.

On a separate point: What do people think of the "Unfinished Tales",
and "Book of Lost Tales"?  I am only part-way through the second
"Book" (just finished reading _The Fall of Gondolin_), yet I am
highly impressed by Tolkien's style.  It only re-inforces my opinion
that Tolkien is THE best fantasy writer.

Jeff Okamoto
hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 21:04:53 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?!

Kathy,
   I think we just have a plain old difference of opinion on the
topic.  We merely see things differently, so don't take this as a
flame.

My Original comment:
> Tolkien has Galadriel and Eowen as heroic figures. In fact,
> there's a strong feminist line in regards to Eowen. Tolkien
> clearly displays her struggle with her identity and her drastic
> measure to overcome the sexism prevalent in her culture.

Kathy's response: (my comments interspersed)
>While perhaps better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel
>in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly
>call this a "strong feminist line."  After all, what happens to
>Eowen?  She falls in love once,

OK - a lot of human beings (male and female) do this.

>but because "the man of her dreams" doesn't return her affection
>she decides to go seek death in battle (motivational problems, but
>so far, okay).

Actually, a lot more happens before we get to this part. There is a
struggle within herself. She recognizes that she has a problem.  She
knows she has great potential, as great or greater than any other
rider. She knows that she has been restricted from using this
potential because she has been trapped in a woman's body. She
resents being treated as a second class citizen.  (For a woman to
even think of such things!). Eventually, she does something about
it.

When her love is rejected by Aragon, she doesn't do the typical
"woman's thing" (I suppose that would be to pine away, or commit
suicide). She decides to do what she knows she can do best.
Actually, I think that she was confused with regards to Aragon. I
don't think it was love, I think it was envy. (He had the chance to
show his potential).

>She fights in battle, does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the
>rest of the war in the houses of healing (still okay, so far).
>However, what happens to her there?  She falls for her "true love",
>and decides she no longer wants to be a "shield maiden",

One of the reasons I left the Air Force was the impact it had on my
family life. I don't find this reaction as being particularly
feminine or whimpish.

>but will devote herself to healing (as I recall).

And what's so bad about that. I wish my powers to create, to heal,
to restore, and to renew were stronger. In fact, one of the chief
male characters, Aragon, had, (among his many other titles), the
title of "renewer and restorer".  I know that the primary intent of
this title is the renewer and restorer of the kingdom, but there's
too much reference to his "Elven philosophy" (those exact words
aren't in the book), to let it go only at that. "The hands of a king
are the hands of a healer". (If that's not an exact quote, it's
close).

>Now what do we have here as a tale of female maturation?

Of female maturation (whatever that's supposed to be), I see nothing
in particular. Of personal maturation, I see a lot. I still maintain
it's easier to destroy than to create.  To turn down the former in
favor of the latter, isn't "going soft", it takes a great deal of
courage.

>Only irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that
>"real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented
>things.

I don't see Eowen as an irresponsible adolescent. Her love for the
king was greater than her love of duty, her love for Aragon, and
perhaps her love for Farimir. Don't we all face decisions to make?

I associate with a unique group of women. They are all winners.
They all do things that can be considered traditionally "male
games". Yet they are very feminine.  I don't see where being
feminine means being subservient or vice-versa. Perhaps I'm working
with the wrong definition.

As I said at the top of the article, I may be getting more out of
the story, (perhaps even, stuff that isn't there), than you.

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98466
206-581-1322
{psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 13:26:32 GMT
From: adb@elrond.calcomp.com (Alan D. Brunelle)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

wright@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (DAVID WRIGHT) writes:
> I was more depressed by the extreme value placed on proper
> lineage.  Faramir, no matter how just, wise or fair was by birth
> unworthy of being king over Gondor and meekly submitted to
> Aragorn.

Faramir did not 'meekly submit', but joyously accepted Aragorn.
Also - because one is beloved by his people, is just wise and fair
does not mean one can be King. The title of King is inherently
inherited. Note that Faramir was Steward by lineage as well, and
that the Steward was in all save name, the King of Gondor.

>Perhaps it comes with the turf of having a king, but there are
>enough other characters who have proper ancestry-- Bilbo and Frodo
>are both descendents of Old Took for example-- that I take it to be
>a major theme.  The whole distinction between high elves and dark
>elves,

The distinction is between those that have seen the light, and those
that have not. Those elves that lived within the area of the Two
Trees of Valinor were especially blessed with both health and
wisdom. It is more important to note that a Dark Elf (one of the
Sindar) was of great importance in the War (Legolas) while a
Caliquendi (eg. Glorfindel or Rivendell) was not sent with the Nine
Walkers because, Elrond thought that by power alone the task could
not be accomplished.

> descendents of Numinor( sp? ) and wicked men of the Harad, and
> even the three types of hobbits seem to indicate a stress on
> ethnicity(genetic) being more important to an individual's
> character than nuture, parenting, education, free will or any
> other factor.  Of course, maybe I'd only be happy if a people's
> revolution overthrew the patriarchal monarchist Aragorn and his
> capitalist lackey dogs and instituted an egalitarian paradise
> without discrimination on the basis of gender, race, breed, sexual
> orientation, religion.... ( |-) ).  Still, even considering his
> time period, Tolkien strikes me as cool toward egalitarianism and
> perhaprs elitist in that certain folks are born to rule.
> Individuals may fail to live up to their potention ( hence the
> fall of Numinor ( sp? ) ) but still, a proper leader needs proper
> background and pedigree.

This whole argument seems to rest upon the fact that Tolkien
emphasized the fact that there were certain unalienable rights that
different groups had: Aragorn had the right to the throne and to,
eg, the Palintiri; but what was more then that, his 20+ forefathers
had the right as well - but did not actively persue the throne until
their line could get rid of Sauron - whose existence was allowed by
the fact that Isildur did not destroy the Ring.  The reason Aragorn
was so well accepted (Please note that in the _Return of The King_
Aragorn is welcomed back to his city when Faramir asks the people if
Aragorn should be their king and they enthusiastically agree, this
may not be democracy, but it sure seems to be by popular opinion as
well as lineage.) was that he was a major mover in both saving
Gondor, but also for saving Faramir - by 'the hands of a king'.

The hobbits had the right to live in peace and in their own ways,
Aragorn saw to it that this was true while he was with the Rangers,
and after he became King he made it a law. Note that the "High and
Mighty" Numenorean Aragorn was more then willing to accept the lowly
Rohirrim Eomer as his brother, friend and companion.

This may have not been the best written response, but I believe that
Tolkien's works deserve more credit then what has been posted.

Alan D. Brunelle
uucp: ...{decvax,harvard,savax,wanginst}!elrond!adb
adb@elrond.CalComp.COM
phone: (603) 885-8145
us mail: Calcomp/Lockheed DPD
         (PTP2-2D02)
         Hudson NH   03051-0908

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 May 87 0755-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #255
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 May 87 0755-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #255
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 255

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - First SF (17 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 04:34:12 GMT
From: oltz@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Michael Oltz)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction (spoilers)

Yes, I remember Matthew Looney, his sister Maria, his Uncle Lucky,
Professor Ploozer etc.  They were by Jerome Beatty.  Were there
seven or eight of them?  My favorite was "Matthew Looney and the
Space Pirates".

The first science fiction story I can remember reading was a
juvenile novel called "Rusty's Space Ship".  I grabbed it off the
library shelf because of the title, being interested in the US space
program (no followups to that remark here, please, use sci.space).
For those curious, but not curious enough to read it, the plot...

A boy has built a wooden 'space ship' in his back yard (nothing as
nice as the Mushroom Planet ships).  An alien resembling a cross
between a kangaroo and an aardvark lands on its roll-uppable
pizza-pan spaceship.  The alien can make the wooden spaceship fly by
rubbing same with its rolled-up pizza pan.  It also has air pills
and energy pills so you can go traveling in space without bothering
with suits (no mention of radiation or UV here).  It also has
amnesia and is lost.  The alien takes the boy and the girl next door
on a tour of the solar system, hoping to jog its memory.  Finally,
it remembers it is from the Andromeda galaxy.

Mike Oltz
...!rochester!cornell!tn!tcgould!oltz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 May 87 11:52:21 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Well, the first SF book(s) I read were either "Bolts, a Robot Dog",
or the Tom Swift Jr. series.  Neither hooked me to read more science
fiction.

The hook was in about fifth or sixth grade, when they marched my
class into a bookmobile and forced us each to check out a book.  As
the deadline approached, I grabbed a copy of Heinlein's "Red
Planet", mostly because of a kind of neat cover picture.  I read it,
enjoyed it, and thought no more about it.  A few years later, a
similar situation occurred in Jr. High: we were marched into the
library and ordered to check out a book.  As luck would have it, I
ran across the same book.  This time, after reading it and noticing
that some other books filed next to it were written by the same
person, I had a brainstorm: Maybe I'd like some of these others too!
I thus read all of the Heinlein (about five) in that library.
Further class reading introduced me to Asimov and Clarke, and I read
all of theirs, generalizing my new brilliant insight about the
similarity of work by a given author.  It took me another couple of
years to think of persuing science fiction as a subject, rather than
just the three authors I had enjoyed to that point.  What followed
was a berserk almost-orgy-like glut of science fiction reading in
the High school library.  Bliss!

As you can see, I was incredibly naive.

To answer the basic question, though, it depends strongly on age.
Some of the early Heinlein stuff and almost all of Asimov
(Foundation trilogy excluded) is good to hook ages under 15.  Clarke
is good for about 12-20.  As a first "hook" book for someone older
than 20, I'd have to thnk about it.  Probably something like
Ringworld.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 20:49:11 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

I started reading science fiction because of movies and television.
I saw _2001_ when I was seven years old, and believed for the next
year or so that there really was a space station between the earth
and the moon. I read _The Hobbit_, _TLoTR_, and the Narnia books,
but I never read science fiction per se until I was eleven. That was
when I first saw Star Trek, and fell madly in love with Spock. My
Mom said that Star Trek was science fiction, so I went down to the
library and, starting with the A's, looked for books with the little
library spaceship sticker on them. So my first science fiction books
were by Asimov, Bova, and Clarke. A wonderful start.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 15:56:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

By shear luck, the first SF/F story that I read was J.R.R. Tolkien's
_The Hobbit_.  We were living in Indonesia at the time, and I had
finished all the other fiction (mostly westerns) in the house.  At
first glance, _The Hobbit_ did not appear as if it would be very
interesting, but once I started it, I could not put it down.  It
hooked me on the SF/F genre because of the world it portrayed and
the vistas that it offered my imagination.  I had never read a book
as evocative (in the sense of stimulating the imagination) as _The
Hobbit_ before, and it made quite an impression on my 12yr old mind.

Peter Webb
{allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb
ulowell!applicon!webb
raybed2!applicon!webb

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 03:10:53 GMT
From: 6062871@pucc.princeton.edu (Raj Manandhar)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

I started out, I think, with the Tom Swift books. These are about a
teen-age inventor with a dad of the same name who always ends up
solving a mystery using one of his inventions. The books had names
like "Tom Swift and His Triphibian Atomicar" and were put out by the
same company and same format (except yellow binding) as the Hardy
boys.  Then came "Rocket Ship Galileo" by Heinlein, chosen on the
basis of the title. Then I read everything with the library's
rocket-ship/atom labels.
   Incidently, I now find much (though not all) of Heinlein sexist
and occasionally offensive. "Rocket Ship Galileo" was probably both,
but it didn't bother ten-year-old me. I've never seen the novel
since.

Raj Manandhar
6062871@pucc.bitnet
{ihnp4,etc.}!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6062871
417 Edwards Hall
Princeton University
Princeton, NJ  08544
609/734-7368

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 21:38:45 GMT
From: seismo!uw70!uw-june!ewan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh???

obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
> ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>>So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it hook
>>you to SF?
> What a strange question.  What makes you think the first SF story
> that someone read hooked them?

Yeah good point. In fact some replies I've received specifically
said that it wasn't the first book that hooked them. So the right
question is: What was the first SF story that hooked you to SF and
why or: What was the first SF story that you read and did it hook
you (if so why) or: Relate your fondest memories of starting out as
an SF-lover...

Ewan Tempero
University of Washington
UUCP:<hub>!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan
Internet:ewan@june.cs.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 14:53:36 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh???

ewan@uw-june.UUCP (Ewan Tempero) writes:
>Relate your fondest memories of starting out as an SF-lover...

We lived with my grandparents when I was growing up. Back in the
early 1950s, I used to sneak into my grandmother's room and borrow
her "Worlds of If" and "Amazing" magazines to read. She returned the
favor when I was a teenager in the 1960s. I suppose the books that
had the greatest impact on my becoming an SF-lover were Groff
Conklin's excellent anthologies (anybody else remember them?) and
Ray Bradbury's story collections.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 02:20:12 GMT
From: rodgin@hpccc.hp.com (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: Re: Re: First Science Fiction (spoilers)

The first science-fiction story I read was "The Star" by Arthur C.
Clarke.  It was in a book called (believe it or not) something like
"Ten Science- Fiction Stories for People who Think They Hate
Science-Fiction".  There were a number of other famous short stories
in that book, including ones by Ray Bradbury and Robert Heinlein,
but the one that I remember vividly is the Clarke story.

Lisa Rodgin
hplabs!hpccc!rodgin

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 17:25:35 GMT
From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

I don't remember what was the very first sf book that I read
was...but the one that really got me hooked may well have been it.
It was called Foundation and Empire..the second book in the
Foundation Trilogy by Asimov.The very next thing I read was a
collection of Asimov's short stories called something to the effect
of "The best of Isaac Asimov" and included Nightfall...the best sf
short story (arguably) ever written. Now, of course, I consider
Prof. Asimov a near god.

Peter Clark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 87  22:05:28 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: First SF

My first SF story was Walter Farley's TIsland Stallion Races.  I was
seven and didn't know it was SF.  My first *conscious* SF story was
Asimov's The Caves of Steel when I was recovering from surgery at
age 12.  I subsequently read 90% of Heinlein that summer and started
watching Star Trek that fall.  The result is that I just finished an
SF novel, own a few hundred SF books (out of a 5,000 volume
library), and still regard SF as my favorite form of fiction.  So it
goes.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 20:19:27 GMT
From: seismo!sdcsvax!celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim )
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

What really turned me on to SF was not a book or story but the movie
"Destination Moon."  I was 8 when it came out and was enthralled by
the concept of space travel.  I remember my favorite parts of the
movie related to "weightlessness" -- walking "upside down" in
magnetic boots and the "rescue" with the oxygen tank.

After this, I read everything I could get my hands on about rockets,
and astronomy.  This included all of the science fiction in the
juvenile section of the local library (a lot of Heinlein).

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 13:21:26 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!yetti!geac!len@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard Vanek)
Subject: Re: First SF/F

It's too long ago to be sure, but a couple of the earliest SF books
that I remember reading were a Heinlein (juvenile) titled (I think)
"Tunnel in the Sky" and a time travel story, whose title escapes me,
by Andre Norton. In particular, the former caused me to read every
Heinlen book in the school library. Also early in my SF experience
were a couple of short stories -- Forrestor's (?) "The Machine
Stops" and Clarke's (?) "By the Waters of Babylon" (I have no
confidence that I am correct about either of these authors.) What
these stories all did to me was fill me with a sense of awe or
wonder, and that is what I look for in SF to this day.

By the way, long before I read SF I was watching it on TV and in the
movies. I think these are what really hooked me on it. (I saw the
movie "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea" when I was no more
than 6, long before I read the book.) Books were just a more
fruitful source -- especially for good quality SF.

Len

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 17:48:23 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: First SF

The first SF that I read was from two books, entitled SCIENCE
FICTION STORIES and MORE SCIENCE FICTION STORIES (pretty original,
huh?).  I can't remember the publisher, but the stories were pretty
good.  I still enjoy most of them.  I got these the same time I got
THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, when I was 8 or so.  The first author (I
don't count NARNIA as sf) that got me hooked, though, was Clarke.  I
think the book was EXPEDITION TO EARTH.  Since then, I've read
everything of his that I could find.  He's the only author that I'm
waiting for *him* do to something.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 01:37:09 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

My first exposure was one of those "you all have to read one of the
books on this shelf" experiences in school, jeez, it must have been
about Grade 4. I don't remember the title, but it was a collection,
had a spaceship/station on the cover, and included "The Roads must
Roll", "Nightfall", a Poul Anderson(?)  story with a Martian
Sherlock Holmes, and several others I recall only vaguely.

That was before I knew Science Fiction existed. Then I bought "The
Day of the Triffids", but didn't know until later that it too was
categorized as SF.

The first books I read *knowing* they were Science Fiction and
actually browsing through that section in a bookstore were "Traitor
to the Living" by Farmer and "The Genesis Machine" by Hogan.
Although my memory is hazy, and I might have gotten "The Star Beast"
and "Tunnel in the Sky" by Heinlein first.

John

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 87 23:17:30 GMT
From: 6065833@pucc.princeton.edu (Una Smith)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

_The Hobbit_ was my first Science Fiction book, and actually the
first book I ever read, at the age of 10.  In fact, I COULD NOT read
when I began that book.

I had refused for years to read, mainly because the stories people
wanted me to read were boring (they'd read them to me, trying to
interest me).  My 4th grade teacher started the year off by reading
us a few pages of the Hobbit each afternoon before we went home.  I
was fascinated, and I checked out the school's second copy when she
didn't read it fast enough.

Of course, I didn't do very well, but I would look at the words and
try to guess, and then the next day at school she would read the
relevant part, and I would find out what was really going on in the
story.  This is how I learned to read (YEARS of effort by special
teaching aides didn't do anything for me).  I had an advantage: my
vocabulary was larger than the average 10-year-old's, because my
father, an English professor, made sure we kids could understand
him.

By the time the teacher finished THE HOBBIT, I COULD read, and had
finished the book myself a few weeks previously.

This topic has really brought back some old memories.

Una Smith
6065833@PUCC

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 17:23:41 GMT
From: quirk@europa.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Ah...the memories.

My fist exposure to 'true' SF was in mid-'75 when I got to stay up
late to watch a Star Trek rerun.  Several years later, my 4th grade
teacher read _The Hobbit_ to the class for my first exposure to
Fantasy.  Then, STAR WARS hit the screen and I was a Sci-Fi addict
(When Cattlecar Galaxia hit the tube, I really got into it).  In
'82, I got my hands on Asimov's _Foundation_ trilogy and started to
read 'the hard stuff'.  I've been hooked ever since.

Regards

T. Kogoma
quirk@europa.unm.edu
{gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 20:35:21 GMT
From: husc6!necntc!frog!john@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh???

I remember reading the Mushroom Planet series in roughly 4th grade
(but I don't remember them very well) (plus some other story about
rocket travel that I cannot recall at all, even though I can still
picture the rack in the elementary school library from whence I
plucked it...).  I believe I read a fair amount of Bradbury during
early Junior High Schoool (but don't remember much of it).  The
first SF story I read that I REALLY remember was "A Boy and His Dog"
in a collection of Nebula Award stories (and shortly thereafter I
read "I Have No Mouth...", which also made a lasting impression).

John Woods
Charles River Data Systems
Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101
decvax!frog!john
mit-eddie!jfw
jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 May 87 0822-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #256
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 May 87 0822-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #256
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 256

Today's Topics:

           Books - Zelazny (4 msgs) & Book Ban (5 msgs) &
                   Body Armor:2000 & Requests (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 87 20:58:32 EDT
From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: new zelazny book

"A Dark Travelling" is just out, Zelazny's new novel. It's a
juvenile, or YA novel, but it is still pretty fun to read. The
narrator has a sister who's a witch, a house guest who is a martial
arts master, and oh, yes, he just happens to be a werewolf.

I wonder whether Zelazny was consciously copying Poul Anderson's
stories about a character who "oh yes, just happens to be a
werewolf".

One thing confuses me a little though: On the dust jacket, it says
Zelazny is the creator of the "Alien Speedway" series, published by
Bantam books.

I was under the impression I had read all the Zelazny there was
(including a short exclusively published in some obscure fanzine or
another....).  Alien Speedway series? What is this? Clue me in,
please.....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 04:49:35 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: new zelazny book

From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
>"A Dark Travelling" is just out, Zelazny's new novel. It's a
>juvenile,

What's he doing working on something else while we're all waiting
for the further adventures of Merlin & Co.?  [:-)] Seriously, anyone
know when that's due out?  Presumably we'll see Blood of Amber in
paperback a few months before that, but I'd still like to know...

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 03:24:32 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: new zelazny book

>>"A Dark Travelling" is just out, Zelazny's new novel. It's a
>>juvenile,
>What's he doing working on something else while we're all waiting
>for the further adventures of Merlin & Co.?  [:-)]

Authors get tired of hacking on the same thing all the time, and
like to have multiple projects (and multiple advances....) to work
on when they start seriously considering killing the main character
off for sheer obnoxiousness.

>Seriously, anyone know when that's due out?  Presumably we'll see
>Blood of Amber in paperback a few months before that, but I'd still
>like to know...

The paperback of Blood is due out in either July or August.  It
happens to have a beautiful, stunning, wonderful cover.  The
hardback is probably coming from Arbor House, and I don't have any
information on it, but they rarely come out more than a couple of
months later than the paperback, so I'd expect it to be soon as
well.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 03:32:10 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>There is another story published in _The Illustrated Zelazny_.  It
>is called "Shadowjack".  My copy is an ACE (NY NY) paperback 1979.
>It refers to a large format version in 1978 that I have not seen
>but I believe in the same series as illustrated books by Delaney
>and Moorcock.
>
>The book also contains 4 other early stories. I would recomend this
>book to anyone who can accept non-comic book illustrations.

I'm really non-plussed by this comment. The works in _The
Illustrated Zelazny_ are most certainly comic-book work; they are
very straightforward comics work, with good stories by Zelazny, and
excellently rendered pictures by Grey Morrow, a long time comics
professional. I think that you have merely made the mistake of
confusing the terms "comic book" and "crap", admittedly an easy
mistake to make if you haven't read comics in a long time. (I could
be completely off-base here, but that's what it sounds like you
said.) Zelazny is a long time comics fan (and is even quoted as
saying so on the cover of the latest issue of _Micra_), and would
not be insulted by calling _TIZ_ "comic book".

_TIZ_ is also very good. "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" works amazingly
well in comics form; it helps that Morrow draws absolutely
stunningly beautiful women.  _TIZ_ includes "Shadowjack", "A
Rose...", "The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of His Mouth",
"Collector's Item", a very nice Amber Tapestry, and other short
pieces. It's worth having if you like Zelazny.

This book was originally published in a large (8 1/2 x 11") format,
and was edited by Byron Preiss. There was also _The Illustrated
Ellison_, which I don't think was as well done. Delany has
collaborated with Howard Chaykin on a graphic novel called _Empire_;
Moorcock and Chaykin did an Eternal Champion GN called _The Swords
of Heaven, the Flowers of Hell_; and last but not least, Chaykin did
the first half of an adaptation of _The Stars My Destination_ by
Alfred Bester that seemed quite good from what I saw of it.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 17:11:01 CDT
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

From Ed Ahrenhoerster:
>> "books banned include..."  _Watership Down_
>Say what? Just what is wrong with this book? As I recall, it was
>made into a 'G' rated movie. So how could it POSSIBLY get
>banned?!?!?

Mr. Hall refused to comment on this fact when it was pointed out to
him.  I believe that WD was banned at the request of the Chief of
Thought Police, a local businessman named Charles Collins.  Collins
doesn't even have any children in school here.  I think that Hall
and Collins are afraid of the IDEAS in these books.  Hall has said
that book reports and class discussions shall not delve into
"controversial" topics.  Exactly what is meant by this is up to the
rest of us to decide.

Thirty-four of the sixty-seven banned books and plays were made into
films or teleplays at least once.  Most of the films were shot in
the 1930's and 1940's, when there were just about nothing BUT
G-rated films.

From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@rutgers.edu (Eric Carpenter)
>One minor question: are several other works considered for banning
>by these openminded Nazis? Maybe, I don't know, the Constitution,
>the Bible (I DON'T want to get into theology, etc.- just, is this
>obscene too?), ALL of Shakespeare's plays, anything political, or
>with social connotations?

All Bay County teachers must submit justifications to the
superintendant for all of their classroom book selections.  He alone
then decides which books are permissible.  Hall says that a student
may read a book on his/her own and submit a "non-controversial" book
report, if written permission from the student's parents is
obtained.

Based on Hall's verbal instructions, the Bible wouldn't be allowed.
The Bible contains everything that Hall & Co. want to shield our
impressionable youth from.  You can forget about Shakespeare - too
much sex and nasty insults.

>Dante?....

A quote from the soon to be published, expurgated version of the
Inferno: "Keep it up pal, and you'll be gosh-darned to heck!"

>I assume we're talkin' high school here,(unless grade school has

The rules apply to junior and senior high schools, so far.

>to some extent.  I suppose _Don Quixote de La Mancha_, _The
>Hunchback of Notre Dam_, Herman Melville, etc. are also included

I'm sure they would be banned as well if they were submmitted for
use by a teacher.

By the by, the people of Bay County overwhelmingly oppose the book
ban.  The Mayor and council of Panama city voted to condemn the
policy.  A group of students, parents, and teachers has filed a
class action suit in federal court against Hall and the board.  The
local public library set up a feature display of all of the banned
books.

I will e-mail a complete list of the banned books upon request.  I
realize that this discussion has little to do with SF - except that
SF-lovers are also, in general, lovers of books, ideas, and quality
education.

Marco Barbarisi
marco@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87 10:13:16 CDT
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: List of Banned Books

I've received several requests for this list of banned books and
thus decided to post it on SF-Lovers.  I tried to respond to
everyone who sent e-mail to me, but our new and improved mail
program can't deal with certain addresses.

Here is a complete list of the books banned by the Bay County school
board for classroom use:

Three Comedies of Amercan Life
Shane
The Great Gatsby
A Separate Peace
The Red Badge of Courage
A Farewell to Arms
Intruder in the Dust
Lost Horizon
Oedipus Rex
Watership Down
Deathwatch
Death Be Not Proud
Animal Farm
Tale Blazer Library
Best Short Stories
Twelfth Night
Arrangement in Literature
After the First Death
The Crucible
The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin
Long Day's Journey Into Night
The Outsiders
The Pearl
Fahrenheit 451
Alas, Babylon
The Prince and the Pauper
The Emperor Jones
Winterset
The Man Who Came to Dinner
The Little Foxes
The Glass Menagerie
Mister Roberts
A Separate Peace
Adventures in English Literature
Lord of the Flies
Lord of the Flies (Casebook Edition)
The Call of the Wild
Great Expectations
The Canterbury Tales
Brave New World
The Mayor of Casterbridge
The Merchant of Venice
Player Piano
In Cold Blood
The Inferno (Ciardi translation)
Promethius Unbound
Oedipus the King
Hippolytus
King Lear
Ghosts
Miss Julie
On Baile's Strand
Desire Under the Elms
Wuthering Heights
Hamlet
Major British Writers
Growing Up
A Raisin in the Sun
The Old Man and the Sea
To Kill a Mockingbird
Exploring Life Through Literature
The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles
McTeague
The Fixer
Of Mice and Men
Never Cry Wolf
About David
I am the Cheese

Marco Barbarisi
marco@ncsc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 87 18:04:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!hapke@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

I never get too upset about these attempts to ban books in high
schools.  Most students hear that 'The Decameron' or 'The Canterbury
Tales' are salacious, rush out to buy copies, and are then exposed
to writers they would never have read otherwise.  We should consider
it an (unintentional) attempt to improve high school education.

Warren Hapke
Gould CSD/Urbana
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!hapke

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 19:16:17 GMT
From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark)
Subject: Re: List of Banned Books

Correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't Fahrenheit 451 on your list of
BANNED books(?)....ahhh..the ironies of life

Pete Clark

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 18:03:46 GMT
From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!terry@RUTGERS.EDU (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
> Any book with the word "goddamn" in it or "a lot of vulgar
> language" is banned.  Here are some of those books:
>
> _Lost Horizon_
> _Oedipus Rex_
> _Watership Down_
> _Animal Farm_
> _Best Short Stories_
> _The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin_
> _Fahrenheit 451_
> _The Glass Menagerie_
> _Lord of the Flies_
> _The Canterbury Tales_
> _Brave New World_
> _The Inferno (Ciardi translation)_
>     (Maybe Dante should of used 'heck')
> _Ghosts_
> _Oedipus the King_

Well, I already own most of these, but it looks like I will have to
run out and buy a few more books ;-).  MY kids are going to be able
to read these books because I intend to have them in my home.  My
defense to banned books is to buy the books myself.  That way the
ubiquitous ``they'' can burn but never eradicate good literature.
And, if everyone else who enjoys good books does the same, there
would have to be a *mighty* big bonfire to burn everything.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 87 13:45:15 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Scapegoat by CJ Cherryh

An excellent book that has the story Scapegoat, along with many
other good powered armor stories is Body Armor: 2000.  All the
stories somehow have armor in them, as in Heinlein's Starship
Troopers and other stories.  I heartily recommend this book.  As
usual, MHG and CW come through in their secondary, but essential
roles.

Body Armor: 2000
Haldeman, Joe, MH Greenberg, and Charles Waugh
Ace     1986

Contact!                        David Drake
The Warbots                     Larry S. Todd
The Scapegoat                   C.J. Cherryh
The Last Crusade                George H. Smith
Hired Man                       Richard C. Meredith
Early Model                     Robert Sheckley
In the Bone                     Gordon R. Dickson
The Chemically Pure Warriors    Allan Kim Lang
Right to Life                   Thomas A. Easton
Or Battle's Sound               Harry Harrison
Hero                            Joe Haldeman

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 06:08:13 GMT
From: richard@gryphon.cts.com (Richard Sexton)
Subject: Various

Does anybody remember a book, that I read about '74 that had on the
cover an alien face with sharp pointed filed teeth, and a story
about some guys that go to a planet and convince the locals to farm
their brethern, who grow fat and happy, only to be tortured to
extract a drug called Herogyn, which is produced (or so the
earthlings convince them) when they are tortured.

If all you guys dont like Heinlein, try reading som e of the older
stuff. I mean really old stuff from the 30's-40's like _Revolt in
2100_. It's completely different from the STASL type of stories.

On the other hand if you don't like RAH because of deviations from
social norms, you *certainly* won't enjoy Silverberg's _The World
Inside_ or (perish the thought) _The Book of Skulls_.

Heaven forbid, we were FORCED to read the first chapter of The World
Inside, under the name "A Happy Day in 2381".  And some people can't
read Watership Down.

Words fail me...

Richard Sexton
INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM
UUCP: {akgua,hplabs!hp-sdd,sdcsvax,ihnp4,nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 87 13:57:45 CDT
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: [LTC Don Gober AV 284-9463 <dgober@ccn-intel02>: Testing Man]

From Bill DeVaughan: A good friend who does not have net access
asked me to pass along his request for the attached information.
Replies will be gratefully accepted at my box or via the SFL open
forum.  Thanks - Bill

From:     LTC Don Gober AV 284-9463 <dgober@ccn-intel02>
Subject:  Testing Man

The following poem came, as best I recall, from a Science Fiction
story published in the late 1950's and almost certainly before 1964.
I can only remember the first part of it.

It probably came from a juvenile SF story like Space Cadet, Rocket
Jockey, Tom Corbett, etc.  I have combed old books and have not
found it.

Can anybody complete the poem and give me an author and publication
data, please.

TESTING MAN

"Oh, Testing Man, Oh, Testing Man,
Oh, how did the last run go?"
Thus spoke the stalwart Engineer,
"Speak man, for I must know."

The Testing Man, he shook his head,
And settled in his chair:
"Well, I don't know, Oh Engineer,
But I think 'twas pretty fair.

"Some jackass forgot, before the start,
To turn the recorders on,
But I got a glimpse of a pressure gauge,
'Tho I'm not sure just which one.

"But it must have been a right smart thrust,
Cause it bent the frame, by God!
And it sure must take a right smart thrust
To bend a half-inch rod"

...(the engineer again implores the testing man for what happened)

"And I think I saw a little smoke
Before the run begun --
Maybe LOX or maybe fuel,
Or both, or neither one."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 May 87 0835-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #257
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 May 87 0835-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #257
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 May 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 257

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anderson (3 msgs) & Conklin &
                       Friedman & Leiber & Tolkien (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 16:36:47 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
>Magic and science do mix, I guess.  Are there any other books out
>there that do a good job of doing this same sort of thing?

I enjoyed Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos".  Was it part of a
series?  Here's a question that'll either fall off the table with no
response of start another war: Is the "Amber" series a mix of magic
and science?  My opinion (as if anyone would ask): yes, loosely.
Good series, too, especially the early books (as usual, it seems).

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
{whatever}!amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 01:05:15 GMT
From: ted@blia.bli.com (Ted Marshall)
Subject: Re: Magic+Science (was: Piers Anthony)

Another combination magic and science story I would recommend is
_Operation: Chaos_ by Poul Anderson. Enjoyable tidbits like flash
units with special polarizing lenses that can trigger the form
change in a werewolf.

Ted Marshall
ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted
mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU
Britton Lee, Inc.
14600 Winchester Blvd
Los Gatos, Ca 95030
(408)378-7000

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 21:24:21 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony (now Poul Anderson)

krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) writes:
> I enjoyed Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos".  Was it part of a
> series?

Loosely.  _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, _A Midsummer Tempest_, and
_Operation Chaos_ all appear to be in the same meta-universe.  There
are some short stories that take place there also--these short
stories involve the House between Worlds (a tavern connected to
various timelines).

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 14:51:58 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Groff Conklin anthologies (was: First Science
Subject: Fiction--huh???)

wfi@rti.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
> I suppose the books that had the greatest impact on my becoming an
>SF-lover were Groff Conklin's excellent anthologies (anybody else
>remember them?) and Ray Bradbury's story collections.

I remember Groff Conklin's anthologies very well.  When I first
started reading SF I routinely bought every anthology with his name
on it in full confidence it would be well worth the money.  I think
Robert Silverberg has matched or surpassed Conklin in the ability to
put a collection of great stories together, but I can't think of
anyone else in the same league.

I recently found a used copy of a Conklin anthology called
_Adventures_in_Mutation_ in a second hand bookstore.  Even if I
didn't know Conklin by reputation I couldn't have resisted the
title.  I was half hoping to find a story in the anthology that I
remember reading a long time ago, but have never been able to find
since.  I am sure it wasn't a very good story, but it made a strong
impression on me for some reason, and I would like to read it again.

The story was about a mutant race horse that had a coat of a
peculiar reddish color; I'm fairly sure the title was something like
"Old Red" or at least had the word red in it.  The horse was born of
normal horse parents but looked more like a big cat than a horse in
build.  It was so fast that even though its jockey was doing all he
could to hold it back in its first race, it still lapped the rest of
the field 2 or 3 times.  After that race a group of other race horse
owner paid off the mutant's owner so that he would agree never to
race his horse again.  The story's punch line was that the owner
didn't mind giving away the rights to race his mutant horse because
he hadn't made any agreements about the mutants offspring, and since
the horse was a mutant, he would breed true.

If anyone can tell me the title and author of this story and/or
where to find it, I would be most appreciative.

William H. Ansley
Graduate Student
csnet:  ansley@buffalo.csnet
uucp:   ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley
bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc
usmail: Computer Science Dept.
        226 Bell Hall
        SUNYAB
        Buffalo, NY  14260

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 21:06:07 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (no real spoilers)

dykimber@phoenix.UUCP (Dan Kimberg) writes:
>One advantage that I see in this book is that it is written in
>episodes.

Yes, I liked this style very much. It gives the author a way to
track a character for a long time and show psychological changes
without invoking the usual `inside knowledge' routine. In fact, in
the whole book there are only a few episodes written from the view
of the two leads - mostly they are characterized from the view of
different people around them. The style and strength of these
episodes varies, but then the observers differ wildly, too.

>Sometimes C.S. Friedman sidetracks for what seems an entirely
>irrelevant episode, and sometimes falls back on the tennis court
>style of showing little bits of each side in succession.  In any
>case, some of these I'm certain could almost stand on their own as
>short stories.  Without going into detail, there were several
>episodes in the book that were just outstanding.

I agree. I also think that these `side episodes' provide
authenticity to the whole creation. Again, Friedman is not telling
but *showing* us - as it should be.

>However, there were also those that bordered on the utterly dumb.

Interesting. What episode struck you as `utterly dumb'? I've just
finished the book yesterday, and on first reading I found nothing
qualifying. Boring and somewhat irrelevant perhaps, but dumb?

There is one thing that I'd like to ask you (and others who have
read the book). How do you feel about the ending?

***** Spoiler Warning *****

I don't know about you, but to me it feels... wrong, somehow. Until
about 10-20 pages before the end, everything feels right, coming
right out of the setup. I know there will be that personal
confrontation at last, and I have all kinds of hopes and fears on
how it will come out (having sympathies on both sides). And then it
begins, and is over almost immediately (the flashback of her
memories doesn't contribute to the confrontation proper - or does
it?). She saddles him with *exactly* the same preprogrammed hangups
as she had (has?) (the lack of Touch Discipline, that is) and
vanishes, leaving him in despair and total loneliness.  So? This is
an ending?! It just doesn't fit into the flow of the story, it feels
like a major *break*.  I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they
would turn their `honorable hatred' to constructive ends,
recognizing that their love-hatred was benefiting them both (and,
perhaps, their cultures). I was *fearing* that Friedman would just
kill him off (too simple, that). But this?

Somehow it reeks almost of a moral afterthought - after all, he's a
mass murderer in an evil society, so he's got to get his punishment
before the story ends, right? After Friedman has managed in all the
story not to pass moral judgement, this idea feels AWFUL to me.

Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to
prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh!

I should add, per explanation, that throughout the book I've kept my
sympathies for Zatar, as well as his enemy. Does that make me
emotionally unacceptable? That's up to you, I guess. Up to that
final confrontation, I was very happy that Friedman was *not*
passing (conventional) judgement on him. After that ending, much of
that appreciation is lost.

Tell me what you think. I really want to know how *you* see this
ending...

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 87 06:48:17 GMT
From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Lord Julius)
Subject: Re: Uncollected Leiber *Mild Spoiler*

adt@ukc.ac.uk (A.D.Thomas) writes:
>On the subject of one off Fafhred and the Grey Mouser stories I
>remember one called The_Two_Best_Thieves_In_Lankhmar where the
>dynamic duo get ripped off by two female thieves. I can't remember
>where it appeared, possbily in an anthology of S&S stories called
>The_Barbarian_Swordsmen.

This one was printed in _Swords Against Wizardry_, #4 in the Ace
collection of Fafhrd & Mouser stories.  It was sandwiched between
"Stardock" and "The Lords of Quarmall," as an explanation of how the
pair lost their collection of invisible jewels and therefore had to
accept Hasjarl's and Gwaay's offers.  I believe it was written some
time after "Stardock," and definitely a good deal after "The Lords
of Quarmall."

BTW, what was the name of the F&GM story in Leiber's anthology
_Heroes and Horrors_?  I glanced through it once at the bookstore
but was too poor to buy it.  I know it was after Fafhrd lost his
hand, and it was set on Rime Isle, but I don't know how it fits in
with "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" (which I thought was a
good story! :-).  Any information would be greatly appreciated, and
thank you for your support.

Brian W. Ogilvie
{uwvax,hao}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 00:29:50 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

wright@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (DAVID WRIGHT) writes:
>  The discussion of feminism in Tolkien (or lack thereof) and in
>specific the character of Eowen provoked me to reflect on why I
>have grown more concerned about the underlining messages in
>Tolkien's writings, a collection which I have enjoyed over the
>years.  I did get a sense of anti-feminism when I first read of
>Eowen-- its alright for a girl to be a tomboy as long as she
>realises her mistake and settles down.

There are several issues being raised here, so perhaps we should
begin by sorting them out.  First there is the question of whether
Tolkien's writings reflect the ideological influence of the feminist
movement.  The answer is obviously NO.  Second there is the
assertion that Tolkien is "anti-feminist."  If this is to mean that
his (few) female characters have stereotyped roles or inferior
status, it seems almost impossible to defend.  Even without Eowyn,
what are we to make of Galadriel, the mightiest of the Eldar in
Middle Earth?  Or Luthien, who rescued Beren from the dungeons of
Sauron and with him wrested the Silmaril from the iron crown of
Morgoth?  Finally there is the question of Eowen, the "tomboy."  To
this I can only answer with Gandalf's words to Eomer, "My friend,
you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she,
born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the
match of yours."

>I was more depressed by the extreme value placed on proper lineage.

Why is this depressing?  Or rather, why must Tolkien be read through
the filter of a particular political ideology?  Monarchism is
unpopular in America, and perhaps the blunders of the hapless
Hanovers have earned it that unpopularity.  For myself, I would
gladly exchange our present leaders for a King like Aragorn.  Even
now, the word resonates with a kind of enchantment.  To quote
_That_Hideous_Strength_, "For the first time in all those years, she
tasted the word _King_ itself with all linked associations of
battle, marriage, priesthood, mercy, and power." If only we lived in
a world in which merit was inherited!  Alas, that Tolkien is only
writing fantasy.

>Still, even considering his time period, Tolkien strikes me as cool
>toward egalitarianism and perhaprs elitist in that certain folks
>are born to rule.

Hard words, and doubtless true.  But do they have any relevance to
the literary merit of his works?

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 16:08:14 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Feminism in Tolkien?!

flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes repsonding to someone:
>>While perhaps better than the typical "male superhero saves damsel
>>in distress" format of a lot of science fiction, I would hardly
>>call this a "strong feminist line."  After all, what happens to
>>Eowen?  She falls in love once, but because "the man of her
>>dreams" doesn't return her affection she decides to go seek death
>>in battle (motivational problems, but so far, okay).

Actually, it was fairly obvious to me that Eowyn was "in love" not
with Aragorn but with what he was, i.e. courageous fighter.  And she
wanted to be one also.

>>She fights in battle, does heroic deeds, is injured, and spends the
>>rest of the war in the houses of healing (still okay, so far).
>>However, what happens to her there?  She falls for her "true love",
>>and decides she no longer wants to be a "sheild maiden", but will
>>devote herself to healing (as I recall).

I'd rather be a healer than a warrior myself.  What's wrong with
that?

>"renewer and restorer".  I know that the primary intent of this
>title is the renewer and restorer of the kingdom, but there's too
>much reference to his "Elven philosophy" (those exact words aren't
>in the book), to let it go only at that. "The hands of a king are
>the hands of a healer". (If that's not an exact quote, it's close).

It's exact.

>>Only irresponsible adolescents want to play male "games", and that
>>"real women" want to do traditionally feminine, service-oriented
>>things.
>
> I don't see Eowen as an irresponsible adolescent. Her love for the
>king was greater than her love of duty, her love for Aragon, and
>perhaps her love for Farimir. Don't we all face decisions to make?

Only irresponsible adolescents think that war is glorious, as Eowyn
did.  Having experienced it, she soon learned that "war is hell",
and decided to become a healer instead.  I'd make the same choice.

>I associate with a unique group of women. They are all winners.
>They all do things that can be considered traditionally "male
>games". Yet they are very feminine.  I don't see where being
>feminine means being subservient or vice-versa. Perhaps I'm working
>with the wrong definition.

Define "feminine".  (Not a flame; but I detect flames over the
horizon about "Heinlein women" and suchlike.)

I also have some Bad News for those who fight about what is feminism
and what isn't and what is male chauvinist and etc.; while
everyone's busy trying to say that "women can have/do/want anything
men do", few have hit the opposite side.  In particular: it isn't
only women that want to settle down and have kids, and the "woman
leans on man for support" is only one side of an equation that
balances.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 03:04:02 GMT
From: princeton!dartvax!fflewder@RUTGERS.EDU (Elric)
Subject: Re: LOTR vs. the Silmarillion

I read the Silmaril when in 7th grade, and understood not a word.
Then, years later I was given _Unfinished Tales_ because I was in a
period of intense Tolkien-study.. I was even translating the elven
runes to our alphabet (:-). Had reread the Silmaril and understood
it much more, but Unfinished just laid EVERYTHING out in the
clearest possible way. Nearly all the questions I'd been arguing
about among my fellow 'Tolkien-historians' (our phrase) were
answered.
      In a way I was very disappointed. heh.. "be careful for what
you wish for you may surely get it.."
      Is the _Book_ as good as Tales? I loved the latter but fell
away from Tolkien before getting to the Book..

fflewder@dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 May 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #258
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 May 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #258
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 258

Today's Topics:

                Books - Chandler & Ellison (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 87 13:56 CDT
From: <BABOWICZ%TAMAGEN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (RICH)
Subject: CHANDLER NOVEL LIST

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I'm one of the poor
people who only get SF-LOVERS as a digest (on BITNET) about a week
behind the rest of the civilized universe.

A. Bertram Chandler has been (I'm sorry to hear he has past on) one
of my favorite authors for several years. Most of my collection is
still in boxes (grad. school keeps one moving about the country on a
regular basis), so this is not a complete listing by any means.

Title                  copyright date    type of story (protagonist)

Zoological Specimen     1956             Novella (non-Grimes)
Catch the Starwinds     1969             Novel   (non-Grimes)
The Rim Gods            1968             Novel   (Grimes)
The Dark Dimensions     1971             Novel   (Grimes)
The Inheritors          1972             Novel   (Grimes)
The Gateway to Never    1972             Novel   (Grimes)
The Big Black Mark      1975             Novel   (Grimes)
The Broken Cycle        1979             Novel   (Grimes)
The Far Traveler        1979             Novel   (Grimes)
Star Loot               1980             Novel   (Grimes)
The Anarch Lords        1981             Novel   (Grimes)
The Way Back            ????               ?
Star Courier            ????             Novel   (Grimes)
To Keep the Ship        ????             Novel   (Grimes)

The missing dates are novels I've read, but can not find right now.
So I remember the type of book, but not when it came out. He also
had another story line started, dealing in the same settings as the
Grimes novels (even mentioning Grimes in one story), but with a
different set of characters.

To try and give you a short introduction to the type of author
Chandler was here is the dedication to "THE ANARCH LORDS":

"For Vice-Admiral William Bligh R.N., one-time commanding Officer of
the H.M.S. Bounty, one-time Governor of New South Wales, with
belated apologies for the participation of an ancestral Grimes in
the Rum Rebellion of 1808 A.D."

Here is the bio. from my copy of "THE INHERITORS" (1972):

"A. Bertram Chandler, who is both a Fellow of the British
Interplanetary Society and the Chief Officer of an Australian
coastal steamer, writes of himself:
   'I have always been an avid reader of science-fiction and have
always wanted to write. Until in possession of my Master's
Certificate, I always felt that my spare time should be devoted to
study rather than to writing. My first visit to New York was after
the entry of the U.S. into the war. Shortly after, having passed for
Master, I had no excuse for not writing, and I a regular contributor
to the magazines in the field.
   'After the war I continued writing, but dropped out after
promotion to Chief Officer. After my emigration to Australia, I was
bullied by my second wife into taking up the pen again, and became
once again a prolific writer of short stories. Finally, I felt the
time was ripe for full-length novels. I have dropped shorter pieces
feeling that they gave insufficient scope for character development.
I think that science-fiction and fantasy are ideal vehicles for
putting over essential truths.'"

I shall miss Grimes. He was a good man to have around when the
universe was stretched a little out of shape.

Rich Babowicz
BABOWICZ@TAMAGEN.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 04:40:54 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Last Dangerous Visions

>Speaking of semi-mythical Ellison, does anyone out there know the
>story on the "Last Dangerous Visions" anthology?  It was originally
>supposed to come out years ago, (around 1980, I think), but got
>held up by something.  Then about six months ago, I saw a note in
>SF Chronicle claiming that it was going to be forthcoming very
>soon, and nothing since.  Anybody got the scoop?

Once again, according to Ellison (in concert in Toronto one snowy
Feb. eve)

"When its !@%#&$*%&$%$& ready, and I'm $#@$#$%#% ready to release
it"

Translation: Don't hold your breath, it looks like that one may be a
while yet.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 01:07:20 GMT
From: galloway@venera.isi.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Many things about Harlan Ellison

Hmm, lots of different discussions about Harlan seem to be going on.
Taking them one by one:

Harlan writing an episode of Max Headroom: I tend to doubt this one,
since Max has completed its planned 6 episode run, and to my
knowledge has yet to be renewed for next year (with the exception of
the opening episode and the episode that ran after Max appeared on
the cover of Newsweek (or was it Time?), the ratings had the show in
a mid-40s position out of approx 70 shows, so renewal is by no means
certain). However, Harlan is/was writing a 2 hour pilot for a TV
series for Roger Corman. I've been asked not to give any more
details though. Also, Harlan won another (his fourth, I believe)
Writers Guild of America award for his script for Paladin of the
Lost Hour.

Harlan Ellison Record Collection: I haven't heard anything about
them discouraging new members; if there's interest, I can check and
find out. They issued a new Rabbit Hole (newsletter) about Sept/Oct
of last year, but nothing since that I know of. The latest record
was Harlan reading On The Downhill Side, and I believe the next is
to be Paladin of The Lost Hour. In addition to offering the Kadak
cassette, one selection is On The Road with Harlan, featuring bits
from his college lectures including the full story of sending the
dead gopher by fourth class mail.

The Last Dangerous Visions: I'll admit it; I'm the one Shoshanna was
writing about when she wrote about a friend seeing the manuscripts
for this. They do exist! Really! I've seen them on Harlan's
bannister with my own eyes! I even almost knocked a few over! :-).
Seriously, the books (it's up to 4 or 5 hardcover volumes now) have
not been turned in. I'm sure that when they get turned in, Harlan
will announce it on Hour 25, and I'll pass it on. But the impression
I get is don't hold your breath; it won't be soon (although I could
also see it happening this year, but I'm not willing to put money on
it).

The Essential Ellison: After many delays, this 1000+ page hardcover
from Nemo Press should be out at any moment.  The corrected proofs
were returned to Nemo about 6 weeks ago (source: Gil Lamont,
Harlan's proofreader/copy editor).

Blood's A Rover: This was announced back in '80/'81 and a cover was
commissioned. It was to include A Boy and His Dog, Eggsucker, and
another story who's title I forget. Eggsucker, and I believe the
other story, appeared about that time in a book/magazine called
Ariel. A new character, a female who's tougher than Vic, I believe
called Spike, was introduced.  I strongly doubt that the reason that
it did not appear was the already posted notion of Harlan taking the
advance in order to balance the scales with Ace Books. Note that
since then, in I believe '83-'84, Ace republished about 13 older
books by Harlan. This would indicate that the company and Harlan
were on speaking/business terms since the initial announcement of
Blood, so the book would have been published then if it were
completed.

The Terminator: I have vague memories of hearing that the writer or
director of the movie had in some way admitted using Harlan's stuff
in some manner (I haven't seen the movie). However, as written,
these are vague memories. A key point is that the settlement does
not allow either Harlan or the studio/other principals to discuss
the settlement or case. So it's very hard to get and transmit
accurate info. However, I tend to believe that there was plagiarism
for two reasons. First, the settlement was not just financial, but
included the added credit line on the videocassette version. I can
believe a studio settling out of court for money even if they don't
think that the case against them is that strong, but the addition of
that credit line strikes me as a clear indication that they admit
something wrong was done.  Without Harlan having a *very* strong
case, I can't see them adding a credit line instead of fighting it
in court, since that, more than the money, is equivalent to
admitting that there was use of Harlan's ideas. The second point is
that while Harlan is very protective against people ripping him off,
my opinion of him both from his writing and personal contact is that
he is not the type of person who would bring a frivolous lawsuit.
Consider that the only two suits he has brought, to my knowledge,
were the clear case of the Brillo plagiarism for Future Cop, and the
Terminator one. It's not like he's suing someone every month/year
now is it?

The Kyba War Stories: At some point in the future, Comico will issue
a graphic novel adapting Harlan's Earth-Kyba War stories, most of
which were written back in the 50s. These will be adapted by Ken
Stearcy.

Finally, the latest Comics Buyer's Guide announced that a planned
series of Ellison reissues, including the first hardcover printings
of many of his early books, with covers to be done by Dave Stevens
[The Rocketeer] has been cancelled due to a breakdown of the planned
distribution system, which was to be different from standard
distribution in some unspecified manner.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: Mon 18 May 87 10:48:24-PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <HSHIFFMAN@TEKNOWLEDGE.ARPA>
Subject: Terminator & Ellison's suit

As I recall from articles published at the time, one of the facts
that came to light in Harlan Ellison's suit was an interview with
James Cameron in which he mentioned one of the Outer Limits episodes
in question and described it as an influence on his ideas for
Terminator.  So at minimum we have an admission by the
screenwriter/director that he was more than familiar with the work
he was alleged to have plagiarized.

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 19:53:05 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Terminator Summary

Although Tom Galloway came very close to making the definitive
statement on the Harlan Ellison/Terminator case, I think I will
summarize what I know about it. Be warned, however. I have neither
seen nor read "Soldier" in any form, and thus my statements about it
are hearsay. I have seen "Demon with a Glass Hand", and have read
Marshall Roger's excellent graphic novel (aka "comic book")
interpretation of the screenplay.

Harlan Ellison felt that James Cameron's movie _The Terminator_
borrowed heavily from his own _Outer Limits_ episodes "Soldier" and
"Demon with a Glass Hand", both of which involved wars being fought
through time.  "Soldier" involves two soldiers from the future
coming into the past; "Demon" involves a robot from the future, and
the fate of the entire human race. None of these ideas is completely
original with Ellison, of course, but the particular staging of the
stories was, and Ellison felt that the similarities between the
opening sequence of "Soldier" and the opening sequence of _The
Terminator_ went beyond the merely coincidental. There were other
similarities as well, most notably the effect of peeling back the
skin to reveal a robot organ.

He approached 20th Century Fox about the problems, and (apparently)
suggested that if they would merely credit him as an inspiration for
the film, he would be satisfied. However, it was clear that Ellison
was not afraid to resort to legal action if necessary. They were
unwilling to cooperate, though, until Cameron admited that he had
indeed seen and admired the_Outer Limits_ episodes in question. When
this was revealed, Fox's main legal consul announced that he would
not fight the case, and that if he were pressured by Fox into doing
so, he would resign and declare himself a "friend of the court" on
behalf of Mr. Ellison.

20th Century Fox gave in to Mr. Ellison's demands; thus, in every
videotape print of _The Terminator_, there is a credit line citing
Ellison's work as an inspiration. (This credit is very poorly
done--it is in a different type face than the rest of the credits
and is blurry to boot.) Ellison also received approximately $62,500
in settlement, although I'm not sure exactly where this was
introduced into the proceedings.

In a recent "Harlan Ellison's Watching" column (his regular
film-review column in _The Magazine of Fantasy and Science
Fiction_), he said something to the effect of "Damn if _Aliens_
isn't a good film. That Cameron has real talent." This strongly
indicates that the settlement was amicable and that nowhere along
the line did Cameron tell Ellison to stuff his suit up his pazoo, as
has been intimiated by others on the net. Ellison is not heavily
into forgiveness.

I personally consider _The Terminator_ one of the very best SF
films, and the second best involving time travel (with the best
being Nick Meyer's _Time After Time_, which is "Soldier" from
another angle). Schwarzenegger gives a very memorable performance as
a completely emotionless robot killer from the future, a very
difficult role for the normally cheerful and gregarious man.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 May 87 10:12:53 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Harlan on tape

Concerning tapes of Ellison:

I was at a convention in Seattle in 1976 (or so) where Harlan read
"How's the Nightlife on Cassalda."  Needless to say, there were a
lot of people splitting their gut that day (and I had just given
blood for my first time at Heinlein's request).  There was a small
company there recording the reading and selling cassette tapes for
some paltry sum (well, it was too much for me to buy one then, but
I'm sure it was under $10).  Unfortunately, I didn't save their
address or any of that stuff, but then what are the odds that they
are still in the same location after 10 years?

The whole point of this is that Jean Marie Diaz should keep looking,
particularly at conventions, where these people or their descendants
would be hanging out.  I _know_ that there was once a recording made
of Harlan reading "How's the Night Life on Casalda," so there _must_
still be some tapes in existence.  I also know that it is well worth
the effort.  As hard as I try, I cannot duplicate the tone that
Harlan read it with.

Jon
pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 87  09:30 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Ellison

>>Obviously since the case was settled out of court to Harlan's
>>satisfaction, the studio must have considered themselves guilty!
>
>No!!!  Why must an out of court settlement be regarded as an
>admission of guilt?  Granted, you or I might feel that it was
>enough of a matter of principal to fight it all the way (as Harlan
>probably did).  But a major motion picture studio deals mostly in
>ECONOMIC terms.  Might you think that the whole court battle, along
>with negative publicity, might have cost them more in terms of $$
>than they could hope to recoup?  Since they were the defendants,
>even being found not guilty wouldn't have made them any money...

   I disagree. The reputation of a studio is of far more intrinsic
value to them than the small percentage of lost profit that might
have to be paid out. After all, how will this effect the authors of
future marketable scripts when it comes time to decide who to peddle
them to?  Will their first choice be a studio that adopts the
attitude that plagiarism is permissable, as long as the person being
plagiarised doesn't make a fuss? Would YOU trust such an
organization to honestly share its profits, including those
generated by merchandising and overseas distribution of a film
(almost impossible for an author to keep track of).
   I think that if the studio thought they had a prayer of winning,
they would not have settled out of court.

Joseph St.Lawrence
Yale University
BITNET: SAINT@YALEADS.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #259
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 May 87 0847-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #259
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 259

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?
Date: 24 May 87 21:13:07 GMT

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>_Friday_? Sexist? What kind of drugs are you on? This is the ONLY
>Heinlein novel with a female protagonist who's semi-female and not
>just some sex object for all the men to use as a lust-pillow. Of
>course, the fact that she can break the arms off of "normal" people
>takes away from that, a bit, but she isn't just the usual "man in
>woman's dress" sort of gal that you'd expect from Heinlein. ...

As near as I can tell (after getting chewed out by a female
acquaintance after recommending "Friday"), what they object to is
that at the end Friday settles down and raises kids. _Because she is
a female_ this is not "politically correct".

(Note to any readers who wish to flame me for this: Don't bother,
_anything_ other than _reasoned_ arguments as to why "Friday" is
sexist will be cheerfully routed to /dev/null.)

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

From: k@eddie.mit.edu (Kathy Wienhold)
Subject: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)
Date: 26 May 87 09:45:35 GMT

SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"

I got a number of replies regarding my original posting, and would
like to clear up a number of points regarding two separate, but
interlocking issues: 1) Why I hate Heinlein (in general), and 2) Why
I absolutely *detested* SIASL.

WHY I HATE HEINLEIN (IN GENERAL):

Everything I have read by Heinlein (which is really quite a lot -
I've given him the benefit of the doubt much more than *any* other
author (considering how much I detest *everything* I've read by him,
and considering just how long it takes me to "cool down" afterwards
and be able to discuss a book rationally)) has the following
characteristics:

1.  Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the
plot drives what little character development there is, rather than
the other way around (or even some mixture thereof).  What I mean is
that characters seem to do things because the plot requires it, and
any character development seems like incidental justification,
rather than motivating force.

2.  *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing".  They
exist as mere "plot devices", instead of living, breathing
individuals.  This is really an extension of the first point, but
the problem is soooo (!!!) much worse with his female characters
that it merits a point all its own.

3.  Heinlein just plain doesn't write well.  In my opinion, the best
thing he could do would be to take his plots, and hand them over to
someone who can.

REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR:

Several people implied that SIASL is disliked by people who are
intolerant, especially regarding sex & sexual practices; I'm sure
this is true.  However, it is also disliked by people (such as
myself), who are tolerant in these respects.  The reasons why these
individuals (myself among them) don't like the book are probably as
numerous as the people themselves.  Aside from the other problems
with Heinlein's writing which I enumerated above, one of the main
reasons *I* mentioned for not liking the book is Heinlein's
squeamish attitude in discussing homophobia.  The rest of the
discussion centered around trying to rebut this point.

People defending Heinlein & the quote from SIASL on several basic
premises, which I would like to reply to one at a time (pardon me
for not attributing from specific posters where appropriate - they
all got a bit muddled in compiling this):

1.  The quote comes from Jill (a character), not from Heinlein.

Actually, I don't give a *&#@$% what Heinlein *thinks*, the question
is, "what does he *write*?", particularly in SIASL (so, bringing up
other works is a bit irrelevant as to what makes SIASL offensive).

2.  The quote comes from Jill, not from Mike or Jubal (ostensibly
the philosophical "mouthpieces" of the work).

This explanation I might buy, except for the fact that Mike goes
along with her, in changing his appearance to be less attractive to
androgynous types.  We also never see Mike actually in a homosexual
relationship, or even in a homosexual encounter in a group sex
situation.  Within the general context and style of the book, I just
couldn't buy it.  If you can, I think it's an irreconcilable
difference in interpretation.

3.  Mike does not understand the prevailing cultural reaction to
homosexuality and Jill is concerned that she was failing in her
attempt to socialize Mike because he didn't see a distinction
between homo/hetro-sexuality.  Jill decides that she has nothing to
worry about, because all his contacts have been conditioned to be
homophobic, and the exceptions have been so traumatized by society
that Mike will probably "grok a wrongness" in them... so nothing to
worry about.

This makes a bit more sense, but I can't buy it for the same reasons
as listed immediately above.

4.  If an author wants us to look at something in a new light then
he must also remind us of how we look at it now. Setting up a
character with one opinion and having that character's ideas shot
down is an effective way do do so. We identify with Jill's
notion...(Ya, thats right, thats how he'd handle it..) then once we
are comfortable that Mike will react like we think he should we too
get shocked out of our narrow minds when he doesn't.

The problem with this is that Jill's homophobia is never effectively
"shot down" by Mike.  This argument falls flat on its face.

The most charitable thing I can say about Heinlein is to quote
someone (quoting someone else about Heinlein & sexism), "the poor
man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint."

Kay
k@mit-eddie.UUCP
kay@MIT-XX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 00:16:35 GMT
From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

I just finished reading _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ for the first
time. I was giving Heinlein one last chance and haven't yet decided
if I'll give him another last chance or not.

Anyway, I was surprised there wasn't open, even encouraged,
homosexuality among the predominately male loonies.

I'm not talking about group marriages or line marriages or any other
arrangements described where there was >1 male partner (sure Mannie
and Greg and Stu may have slept to- gether as part of their marriage
arrangement, who knows).

I'm talking about purely gay group marriages (or whatever).  It
seems to me natural, fulfilling homosexual relationships, as well as
homosexual rapes, would be much more common on Heinlein's Luna than
was described in the book.

Lauri Howard
howard@ames-pioneer.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 15:29:10 GMT
From: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>As near as I can tell (after getting chewed out by a female
>acquaintance after recommending "Friday"), what they object to is
>that at the end Friday settles down and raises kids. _Because she
>is a female_ this is not "politically correct".

It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much (it
was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I don't
hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER OF THE
BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and
throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which
Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather
enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax
and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while the
technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad
at all.

This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.

I am not flaming Heinlein the man, or his works, or even FRIDAY as a
whole (since I don't remember enough of it to do so). But this
particular episode is revolting.

(Note: there is, of course, a possibility that I am completely
misremembering the event in question, much as a recent poster on
Narnia flamed C. S. Lewis for damning Susan, when she explicitly
wasn't killed in the train crash at all. If so, I am sure people
will tell me so in friendly, helpful tones :-) )

Shoshanna Green
ARPA: sgreen@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP: {randvax,ihnp4,sdcrdcf,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!sgreen

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 05:09:56 GMT
From: ames!borealis!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)

Before I get busy disagreeing with you, I'd like to compliment you
for actually addressing the subject of Heinlein the writer, and the
books he writes. Seems like almost everyone else is too busy using
RAH as a whipping boy for their pet political peeves to actually say
anything about what he *writes*.

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
>WHY I HATE HEINLEIN (IN GENERAL):
>1.  Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the
>plot drives what little character development there is, rather than
>the other way around (or even some mixture thereof).  What I mean
>is that characters seem to do things because the plot requires it,
>and any character development seems like incidental justification,
>rather than motivating force.

   We at least partly agree. Characterization is not a really strong
suit for RAH. He tends to draw from a rather limited cast of
characters that we see appearing over and over in his books. His
best characters have generally come from his juveniles, where the
plot always centers on the process of the growth from child to man
(occasionally, child to woman, but males predominate). His teenage
protagonists sometimes do have at least somewhat interesting
personalities, which are developed and enriched as the story
unfolds.
   My prime disagreement, here, is the idea that his characters are
props for his plots. If anything, his plots are typically even
weaker than his characters. The real problems are that he lets his
characters become mere vehicles for expressing maverick social
notions, and that he only seems to know how to write about a few
sorts of people. Re the first point, too many characters just busy
themselves *talking* about their ideas when, ideally, the story
should show those ideas in action. RAH attempts this, but not with
great success. For example, one of the main defenses his characters
make in STARSHIP TROOPERS, when explaining and defending how their
society is run, is the pragmatic defense: it works. Well, that's a
pure cheat; of *course* it works, it's a *novel*, and RAH wrote it.
If he wants it to look like it's working, then it will. I'd have
liked to see more of a challenge to that society's notions built
into the plot, characters that *didn't* find it so ideal and
wholesome.
   The second point: RAH can portray rebels, he can portray cynical
and curmudgeonly old men, airheaded idiots, and a very few other
types. And that's all. No REAL villains - try and find a really evil
character in his books, as opposed to the merely misguided. No
intuitive, artistic type protagonists; odd from a man who himself
makes a living as an artist, but there it is. And the biggest lack
of all: no characters who aren't either bad guys or good guys, no
characters who are sometimes on the side of the angels, and
sometimes not.

>2.  *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing".  They
>exist as mere "plot devices", instead of living, breathing
>individuals.  This is really an extension of the first point, but
>the problem is soooo (!!!) much worse with his female characters
>that it merits a point all its own.

   Simply, flatly untrue. RAH's female characters are, if anything,
a bit *better* than the males, on average. Not in SIASL, it's true,
but many of his books have fine female characters. THE STAR BEAST
(Betty Sorenson) comes to mind, as does HAVE SPACE SUIT - WILL
TRAVEL (Peewee), FRIDAY, "The Unpleasant Profession Of Jonathan
Hoag" (Cynthia Randall), "Delilah and the Space Rigger" (G. Brooks
McNye), GLORY ROAD (Star), THE PUPPET MASTERS (Mary/Allucquere), and
many more.
   These are strong, intelligent and interesting women. What they
usually are not, is politically correct. For one thing, they all,
Friday excepted, predate the modern incarnation of feminism; for
another, I'd say that "politically correct" is almost certainly a
term RAH would only speak with a curled lip.
   What seems to bug many feminists most about RAH's women is their
dedication to home and family as their ultimate purpose in life.
This seems to run counter to feminist efforts to give women an equal
chance in the workplace. But does it, really? If you look in the
same books where these kinder & kuche women live, you will find the
*male* characters have the same ideals! Look, for instance, at
Lazarus Long, perhaps *the* archetypal Heinlein Man, in TIME ENOUGH
FOR LOVE. Love is what he's looking for, love is what he needs.
Happiness consists of surrounding himself with family, and
especially children.
   One may agree or disagree with RAH about the importance of
family, home and children, but I don't think you can say he leaves
this side of life to just the women.

>3.  Heinlein just plain doesn't write well.  In my opinion, the
>best thing he could do would be to take his plots, and hand them
>over to someone who can.

   Yes and no. RAH is my favorite SF writer, but I'd never say he
was the *best* SF writer. His approach to writing, his style, is
almost unbearably quirky, especially in some books, where he seems
to totally lose control. Particularly in the last 30 years or so,
when plot has seemed to become so completely subordinate to
polemics, and to lose focus as they gained in page-count, these
annoyances have become more and more frequent.
   Ah, but the things he does *right*! Such lived-in, believeable
futures; such ability to make the unfamiliar homey, with such
economy of description; his understanding that unfamiliar machinery
is best captured by showing it in operation, not describing what it
looks like. And his idealism, his unblushing support for nobility
and heroism, for doing the right thing, no matter the cost.
   If you've found yourself throwing far too many RAH novels against
the wall in disgust, it might still be worthwhile to look at some of
his earlier work: THE DOOR INTO SUMMER; WALDO & MAGIC, INC.; THE
STAR BEAST; HAVE SPACE SUIT - WILL TRAVEL; THE GREEN HILLS OF EARTH;
and that's just a few of the best.

>REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR:
>Aside from the other problems with Heinlein's writing which I
>enumerated above, one of the main reasons *I* mentioned for not
>liking the book is Heinlein's squeamish attitude in discussing
>homophobia.  The rest of the discussion centered around trying to
>rebut this point.
>
>People defending Heinlein & the quote from SIASL on several basic
>premises, which I would like to reply to one at a time (pardon me
>for not attributing from specific posters where appropriate - they
>all got a bit muddled in compiling this):

   I'm not going to deal with the points you raised, but I'd like to
mention again a point *I* made about this, which you failed to
respond to: when the book was written. It was published in 1961, and
mostly written during the 50s. And RAH was himself born in 1907, two
to three generations before most of us. In that context, is the
attitude toward homosexuality implied in SIASL all that
unenlightened? What books from that time are you comparing it to?
What was *your* opinion of homosexuality in 1959?  And what has
RAH'S attitude toward it been in his more recent novels?

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 28 May 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #260
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 May 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #260
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 May 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 260

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Asimov & Jones &
                              Lem & Lewis (5 msgs) &
                              Requests (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1987 15:13 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) lists a sequence of Asimov
books that form a series:
>I,Robot
>The Caves of Steel
>The Naked Sun
>The Robots of Dawn
>Robots and Empire
>A Pebble in the Sky
>The Currents of Space
>The Stars Like Dust
>Foundation
>Foundation and Empire
>Second Foundation
>Foundation's Edge
>would you believe the name of the last book has leaked out of my
>  head..sorry

The list has *TWO* stories missing:

The End of Eternity -- describes an alternative scenario and what
happened to it. (It appears briefly as a myth in Foundation's EDge?)
Foundation and Earth-- Right at the end.

You might also make an interesting comparison with two obscure
stories that are set in a similar Galatic Empire setting but
populated by many different intelligent species. All I recall about
them is the central character was a small hairy mathematical
psychologist and that they are not to be treated seriously.(:-)).
They are also, undoubtedly sexist (*picks up firehose and
extinguisher*) so you may well prefer not to contaminate yourself
with them.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 08:53 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Cc: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Fire and Hemlock by Diana Wynne Jones

Wayne,
   Fire & Hemlock takes two folk motifs, Thomas the Rhymer, and
TamLin, and combines elements of each into this novel, along with a
young woman's adolescence problemset. She has a couple of parents
who have typical human flaws, and her problems in dealing with that
is woven in to the conflicts. There is also her "private" world,
which she's not certain exists.
   I really enjoyed it, and think it's better than Charmed Lives,
Dogsbody, or the Spell Coat, although that last was pretty
interesting.  In the songs about them, both of these men are taken
from their own world & time by the Queen of Faerie. *Tam Lin* meets
a mortal woman, falls in love (and renders her pregnant), and tells
her how to wrest him from the Queen's grasp, which she does, to the
wrath of the Queen.  *Thomas the Rhymer* seems to enjoy his time in
Faerie a lot more, and leaves only when the Queen returns him to his
own world. They seem to have been quite happy to me, and part on a
pleasant note, except that Thomas is given a tongue that can never
lie, as token of his time in Faerie.
   Who's the publisher of Archer's Goon? Paper or cloth? I'm looking
forward to it.
   FYI: *Dahlov Ipcar* expands Tam Lin in one novel, and the song
Elf-Call in another. I have the hardest time finding thon's books,
and I couldn't tell you what nationality or gender the author is.
Anybody help me there?
   There seems to be a small genre that expands the story found in a
well-known folksong (as in a Childe ballad). I really enjoy this
sort of book.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 04:26:11 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu
Subject: Stanislaw Lem _Fiasco_

Dust-jacket level spoilers (and review):

Lemmings of the world should be overjoyed.  _Fiasco_ has just come
out, and it is possibly Lem's best novel.  It is both hard sci-fi
adventure and philosophical contemplation.  The number of themes and
concerns that he touches upon is dizzying: the morality of
resurrection and triage, the futility of AI, the prospect of an
unstoppable yet harmless arms race, the ineffability of the truly
alien, the nature of man's identity, the loneliness of the
technologically advanced in a silent galaxy--and much much more.
And the book delivers its strong moral perfectly.

_Fiasco_ is a first contact novel with vengeance and warning.  None
of the usual cliches and rules apply, as the exploratory crew (and
perhaps some readers) discover to their horror, exasperation, and
complete frus- tration.  They didn't come hundreds of light-years in
order to be so blatantly ignored, goddammit.  The Quintans--the
aliens in the story-- behave in ways that make no "sense".  The crew
puts patterns--all logical, and all too human--on what they see.
Lem plays masterfully with this mystery.

Are the crew's actions rational?  Or have they, along with the
on-board superdupercomputer (of the "last" generation), gone mad?
Do such words actually mean anything here?  As if a reflection on
this very point, the practice of psychiatry in the book had long
abandoned most terminology that we would recognize.

From the technophile angle, the book is peppered with beautiful
descrip- tions of all sorts, ranging from bioengineering to
planetary cavitation to black hole gravity wave lasers.

All in all, a powerful, exciting, and enjoyable read.  I rate it
[*****].

I confess to a strong bias, of course.  The book brings together
themes that have running through his entire ouvre.  Lemmings will
recognize them instantly--perhaps other readers will be at a loss.
I can't tell.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 87  14:11:32 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Narnia, yet again

 A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's The
Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed Christian
allegory: I agree that the other six books in this series can be
read without acknowledging the allegory, but in The Last Battle it
goes beyond allegory to just plain meanness.  There is a section
when the old kings and queens of Narnia show up again (i.e., they've
been killed in a train wreck and go to "Heaven," or Narnia) - Lucy
and her brothers, and Diggory and Polly from The Magician's Nephew.
A character asks why Lucy's sister Susan is not with them, and King
Peter replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our sister is no longer a friend
of Narnia."  Now, it is impossible to tell from the context whether
Susan survived the train wreck or if she died as well.  If she *did*
die, as I assumed at age 12 when I first read the book, then her se
absence can mean only that Susan turned against Narnia and is thus
damned.  If that is not what Lewis meant, he should have been much
clearer.  As it was, I have not picked up a Narnia book from that
day to this; I cannot tolerate an author who uses his work to
promulgate his theology to the point where he will damn a character
in a children's book simply to make a point.  That is incredibly
mean, petty and not particularly Christian, more suited to John
Calvin than a book for young children.

Lisa Evans
Malden, Massachusetts

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 22:35:49 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again

Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
> A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's
>The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed
>Christian allegory: I agree that the other six books in this series
>can be read without acknowledging the allegory, but in The Last
>Battle it goes beyond allegory to just plain meanness.  There is a
>section when the old kings and queens of Narnia show up again
>(i.e., they've been killed in a train wreck and go to "Heaven," or
>Narnia) - Lucy and her brothers, and Diggory and Polly from The
>Magician's Nephew.  A character asks why Lucy's sister Susan is not
>with them, and King Peter replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our sister is
>no longer a friend of Narnia."  Now, it is impossible to tell from
>the context whether Susan survived the train wreck or if she died
>as well.  If she *did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I first
>read the book, then her se absence can mean only that Susan turned
>against Narnia and is thus damned.  If that is not what Lewis
>meant, he should have been much clearer.  As it was, I have not
>picked up a Narnia book from that day to this; I cannot tolerate an
>author who uses his work to promulgate his theology to the point
>where he will damn a character in a children's book simply to make
>a point.  That is incredibly mean, petty and not particularly
>Christian, more suited to John Calvin than a book for young
>children.

A few comments.  First, Susan did _not_ die in the wreck.  The train
trip was made by the friends of Narnia on behalf of Narnia, and that
leaves Susan out.  Lewis is quite explicit on the question of who
died in the wreck:

   "And the day after that was the day Pole [Jill] and I [Eustace]
   had to go back to school- we're the only two who are still at
   school and we're at the same one.  So Peter and Edmund were to
   meet us at a place on the way down to school and hand over the
   Rings.  It had to be us two who were to go to Narnia, you see,
   because the older ones couldn't come again.  So we got into the
   train- that's kind of thing people travel in in our world: a lot
   of wagons chained together- and the Professor and Aunt Polly and
   Lucy came with us."

This train collided with the train carrying Peter and Edmund to
their meeting point.
   Second, Lewis is very reluctant to rule out the possibility of
salvation for anyone, however unpromising they might appear.  The
cases of Edmund and Eustace come to mind immediately, but
_The_Last_Battle_ offers two others: Emeth the enemy warrior, and
one of the stubborn dwarves:

   Eustace even recognized one of those very Dwarfs who had helped
   to shoot the Horses.  But he had no time to wonder about that
   sort of thing (and anyway it was no business of his)...

Susan has a whole lifetime to achieve Heaven.  On the other hand,
she does seem to be in real danger.  Lewis believes that moral
choices are a very serious business, even those that seem small.  He
has never pulled his punches on this issue.
  Whether all this is Christian or un-Christian, I, as a
non-Christian will not presume to say.  Certainly there is much
stronger stuff in the Christian literature; Dante comes to mind.
That it is unsuitable for children, I dispute.  I had no trouble
with it as a nine or ten year old.
   It seems unfortunate that some people boycott books they would
otherwise enjoy on ideological grounds.  The recent discussion of
anti-feminism in Tolkien comes to mind in this connection.  There is
so little really good literature in the world that I hate to hear of
people subjecting that little to ideological litmus tests.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 01:49:01 GMT
From: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's
>The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed
>Christian allegory: [...]  A character asks why Lucy's sister Susan
>is not with them, and King Peter replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our
>sister is no longer a friend of Narnia."  Now, it is impossible to
>tell from the context whether Susan survived the train wreck or if
>she died as well.  If she *did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I
>first read the book, then her absence can mean only that Susan
>turned against Narnia and is thus damned.  If that is not what
>Lewis meant, he should have been much clearer. [...Won't read an
>author's works] where he will damn a character in a children's book
>simply to make a point.  That is incredibly mean, petty and not
>particularly Christian, more suited to John Calvin than a book for
>young children.

It's been a while, but as I remember, Susan eventually "grew up" and
refused to play those 'silly old games' that they used to 'play'
when they were children, hiding in the wardrobe and 'pretending'
they were in another land (Narnia).

If posting on this persists, I'll buy a set and quote you chapter
and verse.

Michael A. Justice
BITNet:  cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET:  boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:  ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas
       boreas@bucsb.UUCP
ARPA:  boreas@bucsb.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 14:34:35 GMT
From: khudson@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (Urlord)
Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> A short reply to Alastair Milne's letter defending C.S. Lewis's
>The Last Battle against the charge of being a heavy-handed
>Christian allegory: ...  from The Magician's Nephew.  A character
>asks why Lucy's sister Susan is not with them, and King Peter
>replies (I'm paraphrasing) "Our sister is no longer a friend of
>Narnia."  Now, it is impossible to tell from the context whether
>Susan survived the train wreck or if she died as well.  If she
>*did* die, as I assumed at age 12 when I first read the book,
>   then her se absence can mean only that Susan turned against
>Narnia and is thus damned.  If that is not what Lewis meant, he
>should have been much clearer.  As it

I seem to remember that they did mention that she "grew up" and "no
longer believed" in the world of Narnia.  I don't remember where or
when, (maybe it was in one of the earlier books) but I seemed to get
that impression.

Kevin Hudson
UUCP: khudson@hawk.CS.Ulowell.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 16:37:28 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again

mjlarsen@phoenix.UUCP (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>This train collided with the train carrying Peter and Edmund to their
>meeting point.

And their parents as well. They see them on one of the lands
adjoining the Heavenly Narnia.

One of the things that appeals to me about the Narnia books is how
often the worst thing possible does happen. Aslan *is* killed,
Eustace and Jill do fail to recognise the elderly Caspian (in The
Silver Chair), Narnia *is* overrun by the Calormenes. It can be a
tough place!  And for an illustration of Lewis's view on moral
choice, see Perelandra where the entire burden of saving the Green
Lady from corruption rests on Ransom.

One point about Susan, though. Given that the children love their
sister, could Heaven be perfect without her?  And, given that the
time flows differently between the worlds why should not a Susan who
{died, will die} aged 80ish in, say, 2010, be waiting for them in
the late 40's in Heaven?  Assuming she {goes, went} there of
course...

Peter Kendell
pete@tcom.stc.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 87 00:30 EDT
From: <MICROMGR%BCVAX3.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: title/author request

folks,
   I have been reading this for a while now, and see that it is
often helpful in locating titles of books which have been forgotten.
Hopefully it will be again.
   How about a book in which the main character is transported to
another dimension through an intergalactic travel-agency's goof,
then has to try to return on his own...I can't remember much more,
except that the copy I was reading had a predominantly red
cover...it's probably rather old given that it was from my father's
collection, and I started it some 7 years ago (and never finished
it...I lost it too soon)

   Thanks VERY much to anyone who can supply the title &/or author.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 14:21:03 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Book Author/Title Request

I am lookig for the Title and Author of a book I read a long time
ago and only vaguely remember:

Earth sends an agent to another planet, inhabited by people more or
less human. These people have a mind control capability and
frequently indulge in mental combat among themselves for control of
others. They are ranked in society by the number of people they
control with 80 being the highest permitted.

The Earth agent is assigned a moderately powerful protector (a 40?)
while conducting his investigations. The problem: disappearances of
large numbers of humans. It is suspected that they were abducted and
being used for forced labor on the mind control planet.

Does this ring any bells???

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Jun 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #261
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #261
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 261

Today's Topics:

               Books - Codex Seraphinianus (3 msgs) &
                       More on Book Ban (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 87 17:13:41 EDT
From: William Ingogly <wfi@rti.rti.org>
To: ALMSA-1.ARPA!wmartin%rutgers@relay.cs.net
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus

Thanks loads for all the information on the Codex; I plan on
ordering it as soon as I get home!

It is indeed amazing that the book has been remaindered without
generating any discussion...I'm especially surprised that NO ONE has
reviewed it in an SF magazine (unless it was reviewed in some
obscure fanzine).

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 87 15:09:11 cdt
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus

In response to some mailed requests, and Bill Ingogly's posting that
appeared in SF-L Digest V12 #233:

The Publishers Central Bureau stock # for Codex Seraphinianus is
475146.  (By the way, the original copyright date was 1981, and the
Abbeville Press edition is dated 1983.)

Publishers Central Bureau
One Champion Avenue
Avenel, New Jersey 07131

(I hadn't put this info in the original posting because:
1) The PCB address had just recently shown up on the list in the
context of a Prisoner video source.
2) Doesn't *everybody* already get these catalogs?!?! :-)

I just spent several lunchtimes in the St. Louis Public Library
looking for more info on this book. They have the Codex itself in
the art department, but I could find no reference to reviews of the
book, or articles about it or the author, in any of the standard
references or periodical indices, except a pointer in the *1984*
(not 1983) New York Times Index to what turned out to be a totally
worthless tiny one-paragraph "review" (really just a short
description of the book). [In case anyone is interested, to save you
the effort, that is Feb 12, 1984, Section 7, Page 20, Col. 2.]  I am
amazed that a reference like the "Art Index", for example, has
nothing about the book nor the author (except a pointer to an
article in "Domus" that refers to some other unrelated works by
him). How could such an artwork go so unremarked? Is it that it is
so strange and outre' that critics cannot think of anything to say
about it and therefore ignore it?

I also spent some time searching bound volumes and microfilm of
Scientific American, and just cannot find the Hofstadtler
"Metamagical Themas" column that discusses this book. Either I just
plain missed it, or the book is not referred to in the title of the
column, nor in the bibliography page at the rear of each issue
(which does contain references for other books mentioned in
Metamagical Themas). I did scan most of the text in any column which
seemed appropriate. Maybe this was another one of those two-sentence
references buried in amidst much other prose, like the NYT "review",
which will turn out not to be worth the effort of unearthing it? I
searched 1981 through the last of these columns, which terminated in
late '83, without finding the citation.

Anyway, I guess the Codex will have to be appreciated on its own,
without any guidance from published criticism or other
"authoritative" commentary. It is still somewhat surprising that
such an astounding book seems to have sunk from view without a
ripple of discussion...

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 14:50:44 GMT
From: seismo!kitty!sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus

>I also spent some time searching bound volumes and microfilm of
>Scientific American, and just cannot find the Hofstadtler
>"Metamagical Themas" column that discusses this book. Either I just
>plain missed it, or the book is not referred to in the title of the
>column, nor in the bibliography page at the rear of each issue
>(which does contain references for other books mentioned in
>Metamagical Themas).

You couldn't find the reference in Scientific American because there
is no reference to CS in any of Hofstadter's columns.  The reference
occurs in the *book* Metamagical Themas: Questing for the Essence of
Mind and Pattern (Douglas R. Hofstadter, ISBN 0-553-34279-7) which
is a collection of all Hofstadter's SA columns and some other
material, with commentary and additional new material added to each
for the book.  The reference to CS is in a 'postscript' added to the
end of the reprinted December 1982 column entitled "Stuff and
Nonsense" on p.  229 of the large format softcover edition.

William H. Ansley
csnet:  ansley@buffalo.csnet
uucp:   ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley
bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet
        csdansle@sunyabvc
usmail: Computer Science Dept.
        226 Bell Hall
        SUNYAB
        Buffalo, NY 14260

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 12:27:31 GMT
From: moss!whuts!hiatt@RUTGERS.EDU (HIATT)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

> Any book with the word "goddamn" in it or "a lot of vulgar
> language" is banned.  Here are some of those books:
>
> _Oedipus Rex_ ...
> _Oedipus the King_
> _Watership Down_

Double jeopardy for poor old Sophocles.  No matter how you translate
"Oedipos Tyrranos" (sp?), you wind up with a good goddam somewhere.

Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned.  But
what did?  One can but marvel.  "Watership Down"?--about bunnies,
Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog?

We could have some sort of a discussion if the banners would let us
know their criteria, especially for standouts like the above.

Blanchard Hiatt

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 09:55 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Banned books

   I will guess at some of the reasons for the banning of some of
the books. I will agree with the idea that the BBanners are
uncomfortable with the ideas presented in the books, that "natural
order", in their eyes, is usurped, and that "immorality" is rampant
through some, and we all know that we poor little sheep mustn't look
at any Bad Ideas because we're not strong enough to use our own
judgement, which is surely inferior to that of the BBanners. I've
always found it difficult to understand how I'm supposed to develop
good judgement if I'm never allowed to use what I've got, or I can
only use it until I fail to live up to some stranger's standards of
good judgement.

Books I don't know well enough to comment:
Three Comedies of American Life  A Separate Peace
Intruder in the Dust                    Death Be Not Proud
Tale Blazer Library                     Best Short Stories
Arrangement in Literature               After the First Death
Long Day's Journey Into Night           The Outsiders
Alas, Babylon                           The Emperor Jones
Winterset                               The Man Who Came to Dinner
Adventures in English Literature        The Little Foxes
The Mayor of Casterbridge               Ghosts
Miss Julie                              On Baile's Strand
Exploring Life Through Literature       McTeague
Never Cry Wolf                          I am the Cheese
Growing Up

"Wrong" view of God:
Lost Horizon                    Oedipus Rex
Watership Down                  The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin
The Inferno (Ciardi translation)        The Old Man and the Sea
The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles

Too little respect for the law or Status Quo or the Establishment:
Shane                           A Farewell to Arms
Oedipus Rex                     Watership Down
Animal Farm                     The Crucible
Fahrenheit 451                  The Prince and the Pauper
Mister Roberts                  Lord of the Flies
Great Expectations              The Canterbury Tales
Brave New World                 The Merchant of Venice
Wuthering Heights               Hamlet

Characters have low moral character and are neither adequately
repentant or punished:
The Great Gatsby                Oedipus Rex
Deathwatch                      Twelfth Night
The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin
The Prince and the Pauper       The Glass Menagerie
Lord of the Flies
Lord of the Flies (Casebook Edition)
Great Expectations              The Canterbury Tales
Brave New World                 The Merchant of Venice
In Cold Blood                   The Inferno (Ciardi translation)
Prometheus Unbound              Oedipus the King
Hippolytus                      King Lear
Desire Under the El             The Fixer
Of Mice and Men                 About David
Wuthering Heights               Hamlet
To Kill a Mockingbird

Beats me, Jack:
The Red Badge of Courage        The Pearl
The Call of the Wild            Player Piano
Major British Writers           A Raisin in the Sun

Please note: These are guesses at SOMEONE ELSE'S "judgments". These
do not represent my opinions in the least.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 18:40:58 GMT
From: ccastgs@gitpyr.gatech.edu (Glenn Stone)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

hiatt@whuts.UUCP (Blanchard Hiatt) writes:
>Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned.  But
>what did?  One can but marvel.  "Watership Down"?--about bunnies,
>Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog?

Heh.  Those 'harmless' little rabbits could be quite vulgar...  Like
what Bigwig told General Woundroot to do just before they fought...
"Silflay hraka, u embleer rah."  Anybody who knows lapine would
consider that more than vulgar enough to provoke a fight.  Some of
the things in the story of the Fairy Wogdog weren't exactly pretty,
either.

Glenn Stone
BITNET: ccastgs@gitvm1
ARPA: ccastgs@pyr.ocs.gatech.edu
USnail: Georgia Tech Box 30372, Atlanta, GA 30332
{akgua|allegra|hplabs|ihnp4|seismo}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastgs

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 18:24:29 GMT
From: alfke@csvax.caltech.edu (J. Peter Alfke)
Subject: Watership Down (was: More on Book Ban)

hiatt@whuts.UUCP (HIATT) writes:
>Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned.  But
>what did?  One can but marvel.  "Watership Down"?--about bunnies,
>Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog?

Actually, "Watership Down" is resolutely non-cute and involves a
fair amount of gore.  Quite a realistic book, assuming you make the
initial leap of accepting (moderately) intelligent rabbits.  I first
read it when I was about ten, and some of the Efrafa stuff really
gave me the creeps ... I suppose it might have been banned for
somehow masquerading as some relative to "Uncle Wiggly Visits the
Magic Pixies", then leaping out at the poor kids and dumping buckets
of blood on them, but come on.  Any kid who's really after Uncle
Wiggly will be turned off within the first twenty pages, and that's
before any real violence.

Peter Alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 15:45:43 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!hyper!dean@RUTGERS.EDU (Dean Gahlon)
Subject: Re: Banned books

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM says:
> I will guess at some of the reasons for the banning of some of the
> books.  ...
> Characters have low moral character and are neither
> adequately repentant or punished:
> In Cold Blood                 The Inferno (Ciardi translation)
> ...
> Please note: These are guesses at SOMEONE ELSE'S "judgments".
> These do not represent my opinions in the least.

   Say WHAT?  I'm trying to figure out how someone could feel that
characters in the Inferno were not adequately punished. After all,
these people are being forced to do terrible unpleasant things for
all eternity as punishment for their sins. If that isn't sufficient
punishment, I'd hate to see their idea of what IS.

   I found the rest of your ideas for why such people would want
these books banned to be generally close to the mark (at least
according to what I know about these books), but this one seemed a
little strange to me.

Dean C. Gahlon
...ihnp4!umn-cs!hyper!dean

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 14:57:35 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!dlt@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Thompson)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

hiatt@whuts.UUCP (HIATT) writes:
> Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned.  But
> what did?  One can but marvel.

Probably because Oedipus married his mother (not knowing, of course,
that they were related).  Then there's the fact that his mother and
father attempted to have him killed at birth (murder) because of a
prophesy (witchcraft (?)).  When his mother found out that she was
married to her son, she killed herself.  Of course, Oedipus ends up
gouging his own eyes out.  (A *wonderfully* happy story... :-))

Dave Thompson
CSUN Computer Center
18111 Nordhoff Street, Northridge, CA 91330
phone:  (818) 885-2790
uucp:   {ihnp4|hplabs|psivax}!csun!dlt

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 13:41:03 GMT
From: moss!whuts!hiatt@RUTGERS.EDU (HIATT)
Subject: Re: Watership Down (was: More on Book Ban)

alfke@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (J. Peter Alfke) writes:
> hiatt@whuts.UUCP (HIATT) writes:
>>Actually I doubt that vulgar language got "Oedipus" banned.  But
>>what did?  One can but marvel.  "Watership Down"?--about bunnies,
>>Rowsby Woof, and the Fairy Wogdog?
>
> Actually, "Watership Down" is resolutely non-cute and involves a
> fair amount of gore.  ... I suppose it might have been banned
> for... leaping out at the poor kids and dumping buckets of blood
> on them, but come on.

You're right, of course; Watership Down is a serious read, possibly
banned because of anti-authoritarian leanings.

Forgive me, I was using the "bunny" idea to stimulate any postings
from people who know the rationales for this Florida banning, or
bannings of this sort (they crop up every so often).

The "Rowsby Woof and the Fairy Wogdog" chapter is one of the great
funny tales, I think.  (Maybe the banning owes to the satirical
portrayal of dogs.)

And the character Bigwig will live forever in my heart.  He's the
ultimate in faithful heroes, who did what had to be done, with all
the cost to himself.  *And* he survived and conquered.  Other heroes
often fail or die or both, but one that does not remains to
challenge a reader at every moment of moral decision to come in that
reader's life.

The ironies of these bannings are just stupefying.

Blanchard Hiatt
AT&T Bell Laboratories

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 87 20:59:12 GMT
From: hplabs!intelca!mipos3!martin@RUTGERS.EDU (Martin Harriman)
Subject: Re: More on Book Ban

Somehow, I doubt that Sophocles was banned because he let some
malefactor off too lightly.  If you think about it, it's usually
quite the reverse--some more or less honest, moral individual gets
hideously mangled for reasons which may or may not be connected with
his or her morality (Greek morality--a fun subject calculated to
make any book-banner explode with delight--or something).

One suspects that the book banners find not-so-happy endings and
incest to be fairly offensive.  The ugh, ick school of literary
"criticism," so to speak.  One wonders why Euripides, Aristophanes,
and Plato did not make the list; perhaps these silly people haven't
figured it out yet.  Oh well, maybe some sneaky teacher will use
Lysistrata or the Symposium, and really go to town.  Or Hippolytus
(which I just saw outdoors in UCSC's quarry ampitheater at 6:30 this
morning--eek...), or Medea (my all-time favorite).

It's probably all for the best--if they let the children read such
things, they might grow up to be classicists, and then where would
we be?

Martin
martin@scruz2.sc.intel.com
..!{hplabs, decwrl, amdcad}!intelca!mipos3!martin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Jun 87 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #262
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 87 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #262
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 262

Today's Topics:

        Television - Comments & Space:1999 & Max Headroom &
                     Blake's 7 & Danger Man & Doctor Who &
                     Good/Bad TV (3 msgs) & 
                     Fantastic Journey (2 msgs) &
                     The Prisoner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 May 87 11:59:09 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Misc. comments on TV programmes

From:   Teresa Griffie (IBD) <tgriffie@BRL.ARPA>
> I also remember another SF show, with a teenage boy as the star,
> and Donald Moffat as an android named Rem.  It was called
> something like "Fantastic Journey", and it wasn't on very long
> also.

You are getting a couple of different shows mixed up. There was
indeed a show called THE FANTASTIC JOURNEY that starred, among
others, Roddy McDowell. But it was LOGAN'S RUN that had Donald
Moffat as Rem. Logan, incidentally, was the first major role for
Gregory Harrison, who later made a name for himself as Gonzo in
TRAPPER JOHN, M.D.

(And how many people remember that Harry Hamlin, currently of L.A.
LAW got his start in the atrocious Harryhausen flick CLASH OF THE
TITANS?)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 87 12:47 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: space 1999

While Space 1999 my not have been that popular over here in the
states, it went down rather well in England where it was made.  It
has been a long time since I have seen any episodes, but I did see
almost all of them when they were first aired, including the 2-hour
opening special that explained why Earth's moon was floating through
the galaxy at near relativistic speeds.  I must admit that I liked
the series almost (Note _almost_) as much as I liked Star Trek.  I
liked the modular design of the space ships (Eagles), and I liked
the way that they handled Mya's (sp?)  polymorph powers.  I just
felt that I had to speak up.  I would also like to know if anyone
knows whether it is possible to get Space 1999 on video anywhere.

Keith Anderson
Hampshire college

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 87 19:58:33 GMT
From: cmcl2!cadre!pitt!bgsuvax!mcdermot@RUTGERS.EDU (mark mcdermott)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom: queary about April 28 episode...

buchholz@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Elliott Buchholz) writes:
> tim@reed.UUCP (T. Russell Flanagan) writes:
>>What, praytell, is a "ratings sweep".  I think they also refered
>>to this event as a "twenty-four-hour ratings sweep", implying that
>>the networks
>
> Guess what?  It's not make believe.  Ratings sweep does exist.
> Not 24 hours as in Headroom, but Sweep Week is used in our tv
> industry.  for one week, the ratings put out their best shows (not
> really best, just the most provocative or most drawing) in order
> to win points for something I'm not quite so sure about.  It has
> to do with advertising and shares, I believe.  You'll recognize
> sweeps week by the specials on tennage prostitution, News
> documentaries on local porn shops, and Battles if the Network T&A.
> It's not very well hidden. (literally)

The netowrk sweeps period is when Arbitron does a more intensified
rating period, using more families and providing statistics on more
hours of the day and more breakdown on who's watching.  These are
the statistics on which networks and station will base their basic
advertising rates (we don't have an Ad Market like in Max, but it
may not be far off.  February is a Sweeps Month, as I believe May
(this month) is, too.
   I believe that "20 minutes into the future" there were about
10,000 tv nets mentioned, and some scenes in the boardroom at
Network 23 showed them watching graphs of almost instantaneous
ratings results.  Thus the 24 hour Sweeps would be even more
intense.
   One day, everybody will spend all their time watching TV.
   After all, you are now, right? >8*)

Mark McDermott
Bowling Green State U., Ohio

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 87 08:50 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Blakes 7 and rationality

Speaking of "stealing" ideas, I recently saw Blakes 7 "Duel."
Seemed far more similar to Star Trek's "Arena" than "Arena" was to
the short story (of the same name) on which it was based!  Even...

*SPOILER ALERT*
(if it's possible anyone could be surprised by this)

...with our hero proving why he's the good guy by refusing to kill the
bad guy.

What I found most interesting about this episode, though was 1) I
think Blakes 7, like ST, is a terrific show because, even with a
trite plot, there are enough WONDERFUL characterizations to make it
fun anyway, 2) the point changed.  In "Arena," ST episode and short
story, both written during an era of rationalization, our hero wins
because he out-thinks his opponent.  In "Duel" Blake wins because
he's nice to his companion, while the bad guy is nasty to his own.

I'm seeing this trend throughout SF, these days.  Take ST, where you
could depend on Spock to explain, at the end of each episode, why it
all worked the way it did, or to at least TRY to explain it.  Vs.
STIV, where we'll never know, or expect to know, about the probe and
its creators.  Nimoy was quoted somewhere (was it in this digest?)
saying something about that point and the arrogance of the human
race in thinking they could understand things.  That attitude
bothers me, and runs quite contrary to my own opinions of what SF
should be.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  8 May 87  16:31:53 EDT
From: FULIGIN%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: "Danger man" = "Secret Agent Man"

As was, I believe, mentioned in an earlier discussion of "The
Prisoner," the TV series known in England as "Danger Man" was
re-titled "Secret Agent Man" in the US.  It was, arguably, the
prequel to "The Prisoner", being a spy/secret agent drama set in
(then) modern times, and starring Patrick McGoohan (The Prisoner).
It was the popularity of "Danger Man" that allowed McGoohan to make
"The Prisoner", and, although never stated outright in the latter,
it is quite conceivable that he is playing the same character in
both series...

Be Seeing You,
Peter Lee
Fuligin%UMass.Bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 87  10:26:26 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Doctor Who Season 23 ***---MASSIVE SPOILERS---***

A friend of mine in Boston, Mass just went to the Doctor Who USA
Tour yesterday and interviewed Sylvester McCoy. He also found out a
lot about the new Doctor and the new stories.

Doctor Who #7's costume will consist of a straw hat, a regular white
shirt with no ? on the collar, a red and blue scottish tie, tweed
trousers with big baggy pockets, an offwhite coat, a tartan scarf, a
sweater covered with ?, and red suspenders over his sweater(this is
to make fun of Michael Grade since he wears red suspenders). The
Doctor will have a wristwatch and a pocketwatch, 1 for each heart,
and will carry around an abacus for complex calculations. He will
not be wearing glasses. Also the logo and theme music will be
changed yet again, and may have Bonnie Langford a.k.a.  Melanie
singing something in the theme. The new season will have the
following 4 stories:

STRANGE MATTER (4 parts) by Pip & Jane Baker

The TARDIS crashes on an alien planet and Doctor #6 staggers out and
falls on his face. Melanie turns him over and he regenerates. The
Rani will return in this story and impersonate Melanie. The monsters
will be called Tetrats, 4-eyed gorilla/bats.

PARADISE TOWER (4 parts) by Steven Wyatt

Set in the near future, London in the 1990's. A bunch of insane
architects are building a "paradise tower."

DELTA AND BANNERMAN (3 parts) by Malcolm Cole

Set in the late 1950's. 2 alien blobs, shapeshifters and rock 'n
roll stars called Delta and Bannerman, have a spaceship that can go
anywhere and mimic any object. They plan to go to Disneyworld on
Earth but are knocked off course by the launching of America's first
satellite. They land instead in a holiday resort in Wales. The
Doctor will do some Rock 'n Roll with them.

DRAGONFIRE (3 parts) by Ian Brigg

Set on an ice planet ruled by a nasty, powerful being with ice
creatures as slaves.

Oh, one thing I almost forgot to mention, Servolon Glitz from TRIAL
OF A TIME LORD will return sometime in this season.

Andy Steinberg
nutto%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Cyberma%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wis.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87  11:08:31 EDT
From: Cyberma%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: sf TV series

Lately there has been tons of stuff about good and bad sf movies but
very little about TV series.

GOOD SF TV SERIES

Doctor Who
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Blake's 7
Saphire and Steel (a short lived British show about 2 "angels" who
   repaired the structure of time when it was broken)
Star Trek
Space:1999 (I don't care what anyone says it was great!)
Quark (a hilarious parody)
Max Headroom
UFO

BAD SF TV SERIES

Battlestar Galactica (the first few were OK but the rest stunk)
Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (just plain bad!)
Otherworld (another endless-quest show)
The Powers of Matthew Star

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 87 19:16:46 GMT
From: cs2633ba@izar.unm.edu
Subject: Re: sf TV series

Cyberma@UMass.BITNET writes:
>BAD SF TV SERIES
>Battlestar Galactica (the first few were OK but the rest stunk)
>Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (just plain bad!)
>Otherworld (another endless-quest show)
>The Powers of Matthew Star

You forgot one of tha all time (Im my humble opinion) dogs:

LOST IN SPACE

(I know that the first few shows were not bad, but it deteriorated
to an unwatchable mush.

Regards

T. Kogoma
cs2633ba@izar.UUCP
cs2633ba@izar.UNM.EDU
{gatech:unm-la:ucbvax:hc!hi}!unmvax!izar!cs2633ba

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 21:24:26 GMT
From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (         LAK)
Subject: Re: sf TV series

There was a show about a group of people, lost (originally) in the
Bermuda Triangle, who were sent to different worlds by a wierd storm
that occured every once in a while. Along the way, they picked up a
peaceful mentalist from the future who had a little forklike thing
to focus mental energy or something...I don't remember anymore, or
the name of the show.

What was it?

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 01:42:54 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!osu-eddie!francis@RUTGERS.EDU (RD Francis)
Subject: Re: sf TV series

lkeber@hawk.UUCP (         LAK) writes:
>There was a show about a group of people, lost (originally) in the
>Bermuda Triangle, who were sent to different worlds by a wierd
>storm that occured every once in a while. Along the way, they
>picked up a peaceful mentalist from the future who had a little
>forklike thing to focus mental energy or something...I don't
>remember anymore, or the name of the show.  What was it?

If this is the show I think it was, its title was FANTASTIC JOURNEY.
This was on around 77-78, for 3-6 months.  The only person I
distinctly remember was Roddy McDowell ( I think! ), who played an
evil character, perhaps who was known but not recognized as bad ( a
*REALLY* nasty Dr. Smith (Lost in Space)).  Of course, all this is
from memory, mostly quite old.  I am sure of the name, because I was
thinking of the show a few days ago and looked it up in a book.

R David Francis
francis@ohio-state.ARPA
cbosgd!osu-eddie!francis

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 03:12:45 GMT
From: rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: sf TV series

lkeber@hawk.UUCP (         LAK) writes:
>There was a show about a group of people, lost (originally) in the
>Bermuda Triangle, who were sent to different worlds by a wierd
>storm that occured every once in a while. Along the way, they
>picked up a peaceful mentalist from the future who had a little
>forklike thing to focus mental energy or something...I don't
>remember anymore, or the name of the show.
>
>What was it?

It was called: "The Fantastic Journey" and lasted a whopping 16
weeks.

Actually, it wasn't a bad little show, but they should have taken a
few more chances and done a few more clever things with it...

Other things about the show:
   (a) It took place on an "infinite island." Since the island
       existed in all places and at all times, it had no boundaries.
       As you traveled from west to east, you went forward in time.
       I also believe the sky was a featureless grey color because
       it was essentially a "time lapse" portrait of the sky seen
       from earth throughout infinity.
   (b) With the exception of three characters: the boy, his guardian,
       and Jarad, the dude from the future, the show was meant to
       have a revolving cast - changing every few weeks as the group
       traveled: some characters would choose to stay in certain
       time zones, some chose to follow. When the show ended the
       cast consisted of:
          The Boy and his Guardian (whose names escape me)
             from 1977...they were marooned on the island
             in a shipwreck caused by "the storm"
          Jarad - a space traveler from the 24th century
             marooned in his spaceship while trying to land
             during "the storm"
          Dr. something-or-anther - a physicist from 1965 played
             by Roddy McDowell who was marooned by "the storm"
             while flying through the area in a private plane
          A woman from the second century *BC* who they were
             trying to pass of as a resident of Atlantis.
             She (and her cat, I believe) were marooned on
             the island when "the storm" evidently sunk Atlantis.

There...that pretty much exhausts what I remember about it. Harlan
Ellison called it "another civilization-of-the-week" show...

Rob DeMillo
Brown University
Planetary Science Group
UUCP: ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!rjd
      ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!europa!rd
BITNET: GE702025@BROWNVM

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 15:42:20 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: The Prisoner, episodes 1 & 2

This series of commentaries will cover all 17 "Prisoner" episodes.

******SPOILER******

Episode 1: "Arrival"
Number 6 finds his new home in the village, but he learns that "a
still tongue makes a happy life." He finds his living quarters,
radio, personal maid, and village-map all very useful. A former
associate offs himself, and Number 6 becomes the renewed object of
inspection by the village management. His captors realize that
Number 6 will be a fairly tough nut to crack.

Episode 2: "The Chimes of Big Ben"
Number 6 meets Nadia, a recent new immigrant to the village.  He
enters an "arts and crafts festival" and wins first place for his
sculpture. Later, Number 6 disassembles the sculpture into its
component parts and builds a boat. He and Nadia travel by sea, land,
and air via the Netherlands to London.  Reunited with his
intelligence operatives, Number 6 is quizzed about his resignation.
Only upon the "Chimes of Big Ben" does he realize that he is not in
fact in London, but still in the village.

Synopsis:
The Prisoner is a sophisticated fantasy-allegory incorporating
science-fiction elements. The village is symbolic of both the
external forces (e.g. society, authority) that try to imprison us,
as well as our own internal forces (e.g. self-deception, a closed
mind, our defensive mechanisms) that do an even better job of
creating our own prisons.

This series is among the most psychologically sophisticated.  Its
often convoluted story-lines, yet simplicity of presentation,
suggest a fairly unique creative intelligence. The fast pace of the
editing and dialogue keep the story-line moving inevitably to its
conclusion: the prison exists, it is within us, and only we can
liberate ourselves.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Jun 87 0942-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #263
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 87 0942-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #263
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 263

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 02:46:51 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

Friday was raped. There is no doubt about that. Rape is, in my
opinion, an act which should result in whatever retribution the
victim deems appropriate, be it castration, death, or whatever. This
is, I hope, clear.

Friday is a professional agent. Not a spy, but a "Combat courier",
which we are given to mean "gets the item there no matter what it
takes".  In this case, she let her guard down when she shouldn't
have, was captured, and the "amature" thugs tied (handcuffed) her to
a bed, and were ordered to rape her by their boss, on the idea that
it would break her will to resist.

She states herself that, were she an untrained woman (person, OK?),
it would likely be EXTREMELY traumatic (to say the very least), and
totally vicious and unnecessary, as Friday herself had already given
them all she knew. This was the policy of her employer: talk, rather
than play "iron man" and get damaged.

Emotionally, Friday has strong control (usually).  She decides that
her best bet to live is to feign pleasure. She accomplishes this by
being very clinical about the proceedings.

Nowhere does Heinlein, or Friday, state or IMPLY that "Rape Is
Great".  On the contrary, it is condemned.

Personally, I don't see how somebody's emotional control could be
THAT strong (Mr. Spock, maybe? 8-), but in the context of the
book...  Not his best novel, not his worst.  I still say _The Cat
Who Walks Through Walls_ is his worst.  There are extenuating
circumstances (phys. condition), but if that is not allowed for (and
really, it CANNOT be, to fairly compare it...), the book is
cluttered, repetitious, and VERY unfinished.

I was disappointed.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 11:02:29 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)

k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) writes:
> REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR:
> ...Aside from the other problems with Heinlein's writing which I
> enumerated above, one of the main reasons *I* mentioned for not
> liking the book is Heinlein's squeamish attitude in discussing
> homophobia.

Well, your convictions seem to be pretty firm.  Personally, in the
light of all this discussion, I went and read the book again.  I
found nothing to support these claims of Homophobia, and a lot about
personal tolerance and rejection of hypocrisy.

Next, I reread "I Will Fear No Evil".  You have read this, of
course?  It is quite a bit more heavy-handed, but also much more
explicit in terms of accepting homosexuality as just another
legitmate form of interpersonal relationship, basically a matter of
personal taste and reconcilation with one's upbringing, rather than
a moral issue.

Finally, "Glory Road".  This really doesn't deal with the issue.
It's kind of an intermediate form, somewhere in between Harsh
Mistress and Starship Toopers.  It basically deals with personal
determination and comparative cultures.  Still stuff to fight about
though, check page 247 or so...

Look, Heinlein was guilty of progressive thinking back in the early
60's when Stranger and Glory Road were published (Stranger was
started > 10 years earlier, if I recall).  Heinlein hasn't really
changed his views much since then, and perhaps they don't stand up
all that well in the context of the currently politically correct
views on Feminism and Homosexuality.  So what!  The accepted
conventions of the present day are in as much need of questioning
and examination as the bizaare and fearful notions of the 50's were.

It may not be of much use today to worry about how many Angels can
dance on the head of a pin, but there is plenty of relevant food for
thought in Heinlein's novel's.  You are, of course, not requied to
agree with the author, merely to tackle the issues.

By the way Kathy, what do you like and/or respect in SF?

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 11:14:30 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
> It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much
> (it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I
> don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER
> OF THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind,
> and throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which
> Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather
> enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable,
> relax and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while
> the technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B
> isn't bad at all.

There a several notions:

1) RAH is a pervert
2) RAH thinks women should enjoy rape
3) RAH is delineating the "distance" between Friday (the AP)
     and "normal" women
4) RAH is suggesting that the normal social (self-hate, guilt, etc)
     response to rape is optional.
5) RAH is asserting that rape is an age old burden of woman, and
     it is better to bear it than be crushed by it.

Heinlein often drops revolting or shocking scenes into his works.
They *are* there for a purpose.  Either to jolt the reader or serve
as reality tests.  One of the problems of having read too much
science fiction is that suspension of belief come too easy, and
sometimes the shockers just drift on by...

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 15:44:38 GMT
From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much
> (it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I
> don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER
> OF THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind,
> and throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which
> Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather
> enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable,
> relax and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while
> the technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B
> isn't bad at all.
>
> This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.

I think you may have misconstrued Friday's reaction to the gang
rape.  She, as a professional courier, has been trained to be
objective about anything and, in particular, how to handle this
situation.  All throughout the book, her overt, narrated
point-of-view tends to minimize her reactions to things of a
professional nature in favor of objectivity.  She doesn't really
take the "if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it" (and I'm SURE
Heinlein isn't suggesting that this is a reasonable response, given
his attitudes about rape in other works [The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress, The Number of the Beast, etc.]) -- what she does is use
her "mind control training" to *avoid* being traumatized by it, and
then she attempts to find anything she can use to her own advantage.
She "pretends" to enjoy it as a means of trying to "gain some
control" over the situation and comments to herself (I think
somewhat wryly) that one of them wouldn't be so bad under other
circumstances but that other guy ...

The bottom line is, I think her response was reasonable, given her
training, profession, and duties.  I didn't take it as a general
comment about rape, in any case.  And I am *certain* Heinlein didn't
mean it that way.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 00:54:21 GMT
From: dlw@pdp.cs.ohiou.edu (Daniel Weigert)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the
> scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main
> character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the
> experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy
> it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of
> rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all.
>
> This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.

I didn't get that at all from the scene.  If you recall, the reason
she was being raped was to force information from her.  She was
trained in this situation to "cooperate" with the inquisitors a) to
stall, and b) to frustrate them.  I don't happen to agree with this
SOP but it sort of worked.  From my reading she would have preferred
to not go through that ordeal at all.  Part of her attitude was from
her being brought up as an enhanced person; she was taught to think
of herself as non-human and property.

Daniel Weigert
(614) 593-1242
Computer Science Dept.
Ohio University, Athens, Ohio 45701-2979
UUCP:cbosgd!oucs!dlw
Internet:dlw@pdp.cs.OHIOU.EDU
Bitnet:CS806@OUACCVMB

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 87 14:01 EST
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: HEINLEIN (MY 2 CENTS)

In re: Heinlein and sexism, I will agree with many postings that say
that he does try in his more recent books, but I don't think he
makes it.  I don't think that any of his female characters are free
of the taint.  To be honest, I find what he does to be worse than
blatant sexism.  It's as if he's saying, "Give women opportunities,
let them develop themselves, let them work and study and compete
with men, and they will *relegate themselves* to a devalued,
subservient position."

The perpetuation of this myth is a very real problem for all women
who are trying to work or study in non-traditional fields, so the
"if you don't like it, don't read it and there's no damage done"
argument doesn't really hold water here.  This, to me, is an
objective basis for saying that Heinlein's work is not very good.

Here's my vote for least favorite Heinlein female protagonist: Sam's
co-agent/girlfriend/ wife in _The Puppet Masters_.  This woman is
really, truly pitiful.  She's a capable agent and thinking human
being, but once she agrees to marry Sam, her vocabulary seems to
degenerate to the point where "Yes, Sam" is all she can say.  Pretty
sad...

Mary Malmros
MANAGER@SMITH (bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 15:42:16 GMT
From: inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the
> scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main
> character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the
> experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy
> it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of
> rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all.
>
> This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.

Whose attitude do you find repulsive? Heinlein's? Friday's?
Heinlein isn't advocating rape, he's trying to make a point about
Friday's personality: she is, in the words of Lazarus Long, "a tough
bitch kitty," but also has an inferiority problem because she is an
artificial person.

Admittedly, no one in the real world is likely to react to rape the
way Friday does, but "stepping out of yourself" while something
unpleasant is happening to you is probably a better way of dealing
with the problem than going catatonic. Friday, in viewing her own
rape dispassionately, avoids becoming a victim of her rapists, at
least in her own mind.

Dave Mack
McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc.
8201 Greensboro Drive
McLean, VA 22101
(703)883-3911
...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 19:42:57 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!aussjo!dana!worley@RUTGERS.EDU (John Worley)
Subject: Re: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

> Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the
> scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main
> character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the
> experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy
> it' theory), and comments to herself that while the technique of
> rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad at all.
>
> This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.
>
> (Note: there is, of course, a possibility that I am completely
> misremembering the event in question, ...

    Having recently re-read "Friday", I believe you HAVE
misrembered.  The rape was being used as *torture* and *mental
abuse* to try and "soften" Friday for the subsequent interogation.
Friday does not enjoy the experience - she vowed to kill all of them
in painful ways later - but rather describes the mental block she
uses to prevent the gang-bang from damaging her mind, part of which
was giving the APPEARANCE that she was enjoying it.  I did think the
rape scene was somewhat gratuitous if it's only purpose was to
establish a previous meeting with Peter(?) so Friday can identify
him on the starliner.  Maybe some Heinlein devotees can explain its
other functions?

    I though the book, like many of Heinlein's works, was overly
long, tried to set up too much and had too many coincidences.  I
must disagree with the previous posting which complained about
Friday's settling down and raising children at the end: 1) She only
had one child, the one implanted in her on Earth, as she was
sterile, and 2) she was very much a community leader, as was
explained in the last chapter.  The point of the pregnancy (OPINION
->) was to finally prove to Friday that she *was* a human being, not
an "artifact".

John Worley
hplabs!dana!worley

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 04:24:07 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU (Shoshanna Green) writes:
>It's been a while since I read FRIDAY, and I have forgotten much
>(it was the last Heinlein I read, and probably will remain so; I
>don't hate him, I just haven't much liked his later (post-NUMBER OF
>THE BEAST) work.) Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and
>throat, is the scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which
>Friday, the main character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather
>enjoys the experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax
>and enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while the
>technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't bad
>at all.
>
>This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.
>
>I am not flaming Heinlein the man, or his works, or even FRIDAY as
>a whole (since I don't remember enough of it to do so). But this
>particular episode is revolting.

Well, I had forgotten that until I re-read Friday. (The day *after*
I posted naturally!) But I must point out that she is _explicitly_
using a psychological "trick" to attempt to make the rape more
endurable.

Since this is supposed to have been covered in her agent training,
I'd be interested in finding out what the "standard procedure" (if
any) of current intelligence agencies is with regard to such events.
Anybody have _real_ info?

But even more importantly, as we find out later in the book, she was
"trained" (indoctrinated is more like it!) as a "doxy" in the
creche. Thus her attitudes and emotions regarding rape were _very_
odd!

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Jun 87 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #264
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 87 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #264
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 264

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - First SF (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 00:52:32 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccdbryan@RUTGERS.EDU (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

I think my first sf was a combined effort, reading the Doc Savage
episodes mixed with a liberal dose of Space Cadet out of the free
exchange library were Mom was a volunteer.  I must have read over a
hundred books out of that library, but once I hit the sf section I
was hooked for life. I remember bringing home a shopping bag full of
them one day, and taking them back two weeks later, and thinking
"HA, Boy did I fool Mom into thinking I was studying...".
Unfortunately those study habits I learned in 5th grade have come
back to haunt me, but it has been for the best of causes...

Bryan McDonald
Univ. of California @ Davis

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 May 87 02:34:48-PDT
From: Bob Pratt <P.PRATT@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: First SF

I was corrupted young and early :-).  The first Sf I read was
Heinlein's Sixth Column, and the first fantasy book I read was Bored
of the Rings (Not Tolkein, but the Harvard Lampoon).  This was at
age 8. I would not recommend either of them to hook somebody on SF
with. I guess I'm just weird.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1987 13:14 EDT
From: Ken Papai  Micro Systems Group Lead A/P
From: <IKJP400%INDYCMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: First Science Fiction

The first science fiction that I remember reading and that caused me
to be such a serious fan today was _The White Mountains_ (I forget
the author, but I remember him/her being mentioned in SF-LOVERS).  I
think it was actually the movie "The War of the Worlds" that
actually led me to reading TWM.  I was 9-10 at the time and hounded
the South Bend Libraries for stuff to read.  I had seen part of "The
War of the Worlds" (it scared the sh** out of me then) and TWM
reminded me of the movie so I borrowed it and read it.  I found it
fascinating and was overjoyed in finding that it continued into two
more books.  I then remember borrowing the taped broadcast of Orson
Welles doing his thing in the 30's and I was hooked for life.

Does anyone know where I can find a copy of _The Stars My
Destination_ ??  I've been drawing blanks for the last couple of
years and I am getting desperate.  Maybe ANALOG magazine can help...

Ken Papai
IUPUI
Indianapolis, IN
BITNET: IKJP400@INDYCMS
AT&T Net: 317-274-0745

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 23:45:31 GMT
From: rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

OK...OK...I didn't wanna, but I'll play this game too.....;-)

Before I read any SF, I had only briefly flipped through my
brother's collection which he stashed under the bed. I thought they
had neat covers but too many words...;-) Only after he had later
"willed" these books to me later in life - after he went away to
college - did I realize what they were and who wrote them: Clarke,
Zelazny, Renolyds, Heinlein, etc.

The first SF that I can remember reading was a book that I ordered
from a school book drive called "The Time Tunnel," and was authored
by someone that I should know - unfortunately I have forgotten his
name. It was your typical time travel story (of course I didn't know
that then) about a pair of scientists who create a time machine and
go back to the prehistoric past to see all sorts of wonderful
things. (Dinosaurs, old ferns, primitive tribes, etc..) This was in
about third grade...and the author had written the book for little
kids... (If anyone can help me out with the author's name, I'd
appreciate it...it's gonna drive me crazy now.)

After that, I was hooked, and I ran immediately to my local library
to check out any thing else I could find. I asked the librarian if
they had any books on time travel (not knowing what SF was...).
After I had gotten across to her what I meant, she said "Oh no,
dear...we don't have *those* kind of books here..." She then
redirected me to the "Hardy Boys" section...

What I found out later in life was that the people in charge of the
library at that time were only stocking books they felt "proper."
(Yup, censorship was another word I learned at an early age.)
Fortunately, others took over the library administration shortly
after that, and "redefined" their policies...I could get all the
science fiction I wanted...and I was off. (In case you didn't guess,
I grew up in a small town...)

Rob DeMillo
Brown University - Planetary Science Group
UUCP: ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!rjd
      ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!europa!rd
BITNET: GE702025@BROWNVM

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 21:02:51 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

My original thought was of all the standard Heinlein juvies, Asimov
"Lucky Starr" stuff, etc., that I remember from jr/sr high schools,
but stretching way back I remember something called "Rocket Jockey"
about a race through space to prove a new rocket fuel (no idea who
wrote it).  Then going WAY back, I remember from the elementary
level shelves in the Logan Utah public library something called
"Little Ball from Mars" ... really no idea who wrote that!

Then someone (Ms. Kuhner at UCB) mentioned the Farley Island
Stallion book, which I vaguely remember, but that brought back the
Freddy books (by Walter Brooks, maybe?) -- talking animals in one
sense in the realm of (very juvenile) fantasy, but several of the
later books featured Martians -- another one or two featured a
mechanical person (not a real robot though, there was a rooster
inside driving it), so do they count?

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87  3:51 +0800
From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: FIRST SF

Reading all those comments on everyone's first experiences with SF
brought back some long forgotten memories....(If you can stand one
more person's reminiscing...)

I think the first Sf story I ever read was Madeline L'Engle's 'A
Wrinkle In Time'.  I was an avid reader from the age of 5, and I
think I stumbled on this story at about the age of 7 or so.  THAT
got me hooked on SF.  I recall something vaguely about the Mushroom
Planet series, so I must have read it too, and I also have strong
recollections of reading 'Red Planet' - which hooked me on RH for
the next few years.  I also remember 2 short SF stories in our
elemetary school Reader - 'The Fun They Had',by Clarke, and a story
taken from the Martian Chronicles about a family who moves to mars
(I can't remember the name).  Maybe only the B.C. (Canada) schools
had this reader in their curriculum.  Anyway, those two stories
hooked me on A.C. Clarke and Ray Bradbury.('Something Wicked Thisway
Comes' scared the Begeebies out of me!!)

By high school, I was devouring about 4 to 5 novels a week, and
almost exclusively SF.  I remember having read everything Wyndham
wrote, by age 13, after reading 'The Chrysalids' in grade 7 (It was
also required reading in gr 10 here).

My introduction to Fantasy, like so many of you, came with the
Narnia series.  One of my teachers began reading a chapter a day of
'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', and I was hooked.  Then I
discovered Tolkien, and until I was about 11 or 12, I was certain
that Middle Earth *HAD* to have existed somewhere....so I searched
old maps of England's coastline....(*WILD* imagination I had).  In
senior high, after devouring every SF/F book in the library, the
librarian got me into Stephen R. Donaldson's Trilogy, starting with
'Lord Foul's Bane'.  Great Stuff!

I have often been teased by some of my friends, because since the
age of about 12 or 13, I have read less than a dozen NON-SF books
(fiction)! - Even in High School, we were often given a reading
selection, and I would always choose an SF book for the dreaded
'book report'. Call me narrow-minded, but I just haven't found the
Non-sf stuff as enjoyable.

Its funny, but the thing I miss most now, when I think back, is
having the TIME to read like I used to.  What with a full time job,
family, etc..  there just isn't the time anymore, and I really miss
it.  Now, at best, I can finish a novel in a month or so....Having
the time to read, WITHOUT interruption, is a very, very valuable
luxury.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 87 18:05:07 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: Re: First Science Fiction (spoilers)

I think my "hooker" was _Sons of the Ocean Deep_ (? title), by, by,
by...  (How embarrassing, I've forgotten).

Techno-battles on the ocean floor, brave heroes, and "greater love
hath no man than this...". I was about twelve or thirteen, and had
read some Tom Swift, but wa not yet addicted.

I think _Red Planet_ (Heinlein) was in there early, and caused my
ultimate descent to the nether regions.

Scott Bayes
hpfcla!bayes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 87 08:31:31 EDT
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: First SF

   My first SF novel (more than 25 years ago) was "Storm Over
Warlock" by Andre Norton. At the time it was enough to get me
hooked. Athough, at the time the local library had only one five
foot shelf allocated to SF literature so my choices were not that
good. I would recommend it to younger readers as a first book. As I
recall it wasn't too heavy and had plenty of suspense. I must
confess that I have not re-read this book since then,, on purpose,
mainly, because I don't want to spoil my recollections of what I
thought then was a great book. Times and tastes change and get more
sophisticated.

Wes Miller

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 01:56:38 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Read TO me: Lord of the Rings, when I was three or four.  I suspect
that Rudyard Kipling stories and lovely pieces like Oscar Wilde's
The Happy Prince had something to do with the route my early
entertainment/education took.  Reading on my own, I started my own
way through LotR when I was eight, but I didn't link it into the sf
genre/s until at least a year after I'd identified the stuff.  And I
got Narnia as a gift, and my mother contributed Earthsea.  Visiting
my dad every other week when I was ten or eleven usually included a
trip to the bookstore (the one at which I have just recently started
working full time! :^), but we got moving back into sf when I found
LeGuin's Rocannon's World on his shelf when I'd read the evening's
purchase far too quickly...  And then we had Niven and Pournelle and
some other neat stuff (PANSHIN!) read to us for months...

I'm a bit ashamed to admit that McCaffery's Dragonflight was what
got me motivated to do more of my own reading.  I like the book, but
it's a damn romance and I was so avidly against `that girl stuff'.
Oh well...

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 13:36:23 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

john@frog.UUCP writes:
>An addendum to my previous message: now that another message
>reminds me, I also read the Tom Swift series.  And promptly forgot
>about them.  Perhaps "unmemorable science fiction" (as opposed to
>unreadable) needs to be discussed to death? ;-)

Nonsense. I loved Tom Swift. That was my first exposure to Science
Fiction.  (SF or Sci-Fi? Which did we agree on?) :->

Tom Swift, of course, was the Hardy Boys of SF.

I also, 'round the same time, saw little snippets of Star Trek on
TV. We couldn't get the program because of TERRIBLE reception.
(Little outport...)  But the little bits I did catch intrigued me. I
wanted to know more.

And 'round that very same time, I remember watching re-runs of
THUNDERBIRDS.  That is the show that hooked me on SF. I loved it. I
used to get up 7:00 on Saturdays, (I was 7 years old) and watch it.
I was absolutely incensed when they took it off the air.

I used to get some green construction paper and build little
replicas of Thunderbird 2, my favorite, that actually dropped its
payload, and it even had things in the cargo sections. I built long
lines of cargo pods, each with some exciting cardboard contraption
in it.

Anyway, that is the story, Doc, am I nutso?

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 21:41:40 GMT
From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT)
Subject: First Science Fiction

Aw, what the heck.  I'll throw mine in, too.

The first science fiction I ever read was (as seems to be the case
with many of us) a book whose title and author I no longer remember.
It was about some people who travel in an interstellar ship of some
kind to (I think) Arcturus, where there discover some creatures who
live in the asteroid belt and communicate with each other via
biological lasers or something.  I seem to recall that they managed
to get hit by a meteor (the patching kit was handy) in the course of
all of this.

I got the book from the Scholastic Book Service (or something like
that) who sold us school kids books for really cheap prices and
delivered them right to the school for us.  It was either in third
grade or maybe a little later.

John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO  80234
USENET:  ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
PHONE:   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 87 21:55:51 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: First sf.

Oh, yes, the memories come...

While reading other postings on the subject, I realized that there
had been obvious influences other than LotR when I was a wee one
that prepared me to my later introduction to the genre/s.

Astro Boy, in b&w I believe (that's the way I remember it, at any
rate, but I suspect that was our TV).

And DOES ANYONE OUT THERE REMEMBER A CHILDREN'S BOOK (hardcover,
picture book) called POOKIE, THE FLYING RABBIT?!!!

I also always favoured books with princes and horses -and the
occasional princess- in them, and always wanted to play a prince
(whether there was one in the script or not) in backyard plays.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 87 02:35:12 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!sam@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Like certain other people, I was reading science fiction long before
I realized it.  The first time that I knew that I was reading
science fiction, and what made me search out other s.f. books, was
when I was given on my tenth birthday "Time For The Stars", "Farmer
In The Sky", and "The Rolling Stones" (all by RAH).  In the wisdom
of old age (21 years :-)), however, I recall that long before this I
had read the Narnia series (and thought that "The Last Battle" was a
BAD book), lots of Andre Norton (particularly "The Jargoon Pard"),
"The Lord of The Rings", and the Tom Swift series, but for some
reason it had never crossed my mind that the library had put space
ship stickers on all of these books, and that perhaps I should read
more books with those stickers on them.

   As another case study, my father (an English Ph.D.) first
discovered the field when a friend read him Avram Davidson's "The
Pheonix and the Mirror."  Readings of R.A.H., and others, failed to
convince him that science fiction was interesting, but the first two
books of Hodgell's "GodStalk" series have convinced him that fantasy
is worth reading.  At last report he was searching for some fantasy
short stories to give to his 2nd year English class!

Sam Weber
UUCP: {ihnp4 utzoo decwrl uw-beaver}!utcsri!sam
ARPA: sam@csri.toronto.edu
CSNET: sam@toronto

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Jun 87 0800-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #265
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 87 0800-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #265
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 265

Today's Topics:

                Books - E. E. "Doc" Smith (7 msgs) &
                        Sexism in SF (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 87 03:33:09 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd):
>john13@garfield.UUCP writes:
>> PS "The Dragon Lensman" is the only Lens book I have ever read. I
>> thought it was all the things and more that people have been
>> complaining about.
>
>  It should be noted that "The Dragon Lensman" is NOT by Doc Smith,
>author of the original Lensman series.  It's by David Kyle.  It's
>not 30+ year old pulp fiction--it's 1980 vintage.  Kyle's sequel,
>"Lensman from Rigel", was even more incomprehensible.  I'm still
>not sure what all those black holes and Ordovik crystals had to do
>with anything.  I'm not sure what universe Kyle is writing about,
>but it isn't the one Doc Smith wrote about.  It just looks like the
>same one to the casual observer.

How about Z-LENSMAN?  (Wherein he does to Nadreck what he did to
Worsel and Tregonsee.)

I have two major complaints with Kyle's interpretation of the
Lensman universe, one is like scratching a blackboard with your
fingernails, the other is either a misguided attempt to correct a
Bad Thing or a total misunderstanding of what was going on:

<1> Kyle seems to think that ``Clear ether!'' is a command: ``Get
off the thought-waves!''  It was not used this way in the siz *real*
Lensman books; and in fact is shown to be totally different in
meaning in GALACTIC PATROL: ``Clear ether -- or rather, I hope it's
full of pirates by tomorrow morning.''

<2> Lensman Kallatra and Kyle's justification (attributed to Mentor)
for her.  The problem with it is that the reason there is only one
woman Lensman is to make everyone think that the Children of the
Lens are natural results of the union of two Lensmen -- rather than
what they really were, the result of a selective breeding program.
(The ``misguided attempt'': I personally feel that Drounli,
Kriedegan, Nedanillor, and Brolenteen *blew* *it*; hiding a breeding
program is no reason to bar women from the high posts. There are
times when I sympathize with the Lyranians.)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 03:26:48 GMT
From: SSKATZ@pucc.princeton.edu (Seth Katz)
Subject: re: Dragon Lensman?

john13@garfield.UUCP  writes:
>PS "The Dragon Lensman" is the only Lens book I have ever read. I
>thought it

Until this moment, I have never heard of "The Dragon Lensman".  Was
it written by Doc Smith?

Harold Feld
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6103014

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 08:56:25 GMT
From: gatech!gt-stratus!chen@RUTGERS.EDU (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: "Dragon Lensman" and other non-Doc Smith Lensman books

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
><2> Lensman Kallatra and Kyle's justification (attributed to
>Mentor) for her.  The problem with it is that the reason there is
>only one woman Lensman is to make everyone think that the Children
>of the Lens are natural results of the union of two Lensmen --
>rather than what they really were, the result of a selective
>breeding program.  (The ``misguided attempt'': I personally feel
>that Drounli, Kriedegan, Nedanillor, and Brolenteen *blew* *it*;
>hiding a breeding program is no reason to bar women from the high
>posts. There are times when I sympathize with the Lyranians.)

BTW, Spoilers abound ahead ...

Urm, I'm not sure I agree.  I think it's more due to the way Smith
set up a restriction in the Lensman universe.

I think he decided that the minds of men and women are different.

A Lens can only be used if the attuned mind meets a minimal set of
requirements.  If one of these requirements/criterion is a trait
that is much more suited to the male mind-type than the female
mind-type then as the race develops, you'll see male Lensmen first,
then both male and female.

Most likely, the human race (and probably others) had developed to
the point where a small number of the males could use a Lens and
none of the females (except for the end-product of the female side
of the breeding program).  I believe that by Kinnison's time, Earth
was only graduating 100 (or less??) male Lensmen per year.  That's
not much for an entire planet -- especially when you consider that
in his universe at that time, everyone and his brother wanted to be
Lensman.

BTW, while Smith may have portrayed a sexist society, his lead women
characters were certainly no shrinking violets.  They uniformly
handle situations that would turn most people into useless wrecks.
If they do appear less capable or emotionally weaker than their male
counterparts, it's fairly obvious that the difference is only a
matter of training -- e.g. the guy's trained for nasty,
death-dealing situations whereas the girl hasn't.  And the female
criminals are *always* competent.

Also, check my memory on "Masters of the Vortex".  I know the
computer expert -- described as the best analog computer designer
around -- was a woman.

His women can be violent too.  I recall Dorothy Seaton blowing
people away with a .32 caliber pistol.  Not to mention the 4 female
Children.  The only one with more than a trace of a real killer
instinct was one of the girls.

Who knows?  We might get a better idea on Smith's real opinions by
looking at the Children -- who were, after all, the ultimate
specimens of the human race.  It wouldn't suprise me if his
depiction of society wasn't a "utopia" but rather an extrapolation
of what a society influenced by a breeding program would be like
based on what he saw in his current society.  As others have said, I
don't think we can blame him for not having enough vision.

And it *is* Space Opera, for crying out loud!!!  You want good
literature, go read "Pride and Prejudice" instead.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 87 21:38:10 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: re: Dragon Lensman?

SSKATZ@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Seth Katz):
>Until this moment, I have never heard of "The Dragon Lensman".  Was
>it writen by Doc Smith?

No, by David Kyle, with authorization by the Smith estate.  Give it
a miss; having read all three of his efforts, I can see why Chris
Tolkien won't authorize LORD OF THE RINGS follow-ons.  Kyle has no
feel whatsoever for what Doc was doing -- he shatters the structure
of Smith's universe in a number of ways.

If you absolutely MUST read them, they are:

   THE DRAGON LENSMAN
   LENSMAN FROM RIGEL
   Z-LENSMAN

one for each of the non-human Second Stage Lensmen.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 87 10:39:31 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Original version of Skylark of Space

The three hardcover editions of SoS have the original version.  The
imprints are Buffalo Book Co. (1st ed.), Thomas Hadley (2nd ed.,
with nice illo plates), and FFF.  Buffalo Book Co. is also Thomas
Hadley.  The original magazine publication was in Amazing in 1928.
It was the cover story for the first part of the serial, but many
people think the illo goes with another story from that issue of
Amazing--a story about a guy named Buck Rogers.  Because "Armageddon
2417 [the date may be wrong]" is in that issue, you'd have to pony
up $$$ (> $100) for it, so one of the hardcover editions would be
cheaper.

Info supplied in part by Ken Johnson, long-time cohort of the
notorious Jerry Boyajian.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 1987  12:56 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: lensmen

   I read some years ago that after the Skylark series turned out to
be successful, Smith then sat down, drafted out, and started to
write the entire lensman series.  Supposedly, he finished CotL as
Triplanetary was being printed.  Since CotL was published only a
year after SSL, it seems likely that he wrote them both.
   I also read (on sf-lovers I think) that supposedly the new
lensman novel, the one not published, dealt with the "new menace to
civilization" alluded to at the end of CotL.  It wasn't published as
it was felt to have been too depressing: humanity and most of the
other familiar races dead or dying, and Kit and his sisters
powerless in the face of whatever was about to happen.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 87 13:24:42 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@icse.UCI.EDU>
To: sgreen@cs.ucla.EDU
Cc: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.EDU
Subject: Re: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work

I would be very surprised to learn that the Kinnison children
married each other for lack of anyone else.  That would constitute a
blatant inconsistency in Smith's work.

Mentor very definitely discussed the issue of mates with one of the
girls, resulting in her realizing that she was complete in herself:
she did not need a mate.  I believe it was implied that this applied
to all of the children (at least, it was NOT implied that the one
girl was special in this respect).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 87  22:59:31 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Heinlein quote

 I was originally told of the "Lensman incest" theory by my husband,
who has read all the Lensman books and Heinlein's collection
Expanded Universe.  It's pretty clear from context that the
unpublishable novel was unpublishable during Smith's lifetime due to
the violation of some sort of taboo; considering the sort of
reasonably racy sex scene you were getting about the time of Smith's
death (and the reasonably sickening descriptions of syphilitic
whores in such classics as Baudelaire), about the only taboo left
was incest, or bestiality.  Since I can't imagine the point of
Arisia's great experiment being a Kinnison mating with Worsel of
Valeria, that leaves the Kinnisons grokking each other in the
fullest sense of the concept.  Today I doubt there is anything that
cannot be published, although certain themes have more trouble than
others getting published (homosexual rape, our old friend
bestiality, sex of the type advocated by the friendly folk of the
North American Man/Boy Love Association, though not gang rape,
sadism toward women - but I digress).  If there *is* such a
manuscript, it could probably be published today without any serious
violation of taboos - after all, if Star Trek fen could get away
with some of the Kirk/Spock porn that was loose a few years ago and
not be sued by Paramount, anything goes.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 87 10:58 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Joan D. Vinge article

Una,
   Thankyouthankyouthankyou. I intend to show this to a number of
people, as it says in print a lot of what I've been saying or
hearing...especially the part about the "Heinlein woman".
   Where and when was that talk given? Has it been published (so I
can suggest folk buy the journal/book?

Now, for a comment on what I've seen today:

   In a way, the "Heinlein woman" is SuperWoman, someone trying to
succeed in a male commercial/business world, by male rules, but
still needs to satisfy the socialization that says "A woman is
nurturing, cuddly, sexy, and creates a pleasant home for her
family." I can see Friday deciding to satisfy that particular
socialization demand to prove that she can be as good as any
"ordinary human woman" at being a "real woman".
   Women get sold Wonder Woman, men get sold SuperMan (the all
powerful Man of Steel) as life goals. Many people who reject these
rolemodels, but wish not to be seen as "failures" spend a lot ot
time & energy justifying that rejection. There are the truly strong
people who don't care how people see them as long as they're allowed
to live their lives according to their beliefs, but these folk are
rare, and I'm not always of their number.
   If we accept the postulate that Joan gives, that "feminism is a
kind of humanism", then feminists are people who work to show
children that these are only sterotypes, and NOT goals that must be
met, and to show adults & society that not conforming to either of
these sterotypes does not make them failures as men or as women.
   Andre Norton's THE WITCHES OF WARLOCK was the first sf book I
remember reading. It's the sequel to Storm over Warlock. I was in
6th grade, in Albuquerque, and once again, I was the new kid in
school, and didn't quite fit in with all these kids who'd known each
other since kindergarten (I was an AirForceBrat). Andre Norton's
work reinforced & strengthened a lot of what what my parents were
telling me about what I could do as an adult.
   Parents of Miracles of Modern Medicine* are often so glad to have
their offspring alive and whole that the kids are told "you can do
anything if you work at it/want to badly enough/etc--the sky's the
limit". I'm not aware of either of my parents trying to limit my
scope as an adult--they were always proud of what we could do.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>
*Parents were Rh-factor incompatible. I'm one of two that lived past
three days, out of 16 tries.

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 87 14:10:57 GMT
From: jsm@vax1.ccs.cornell.edu (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction

flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes:
>Well, at least Asimov does have one female hero in his Foundation
>"Trillogy" Bayta Darrel (sp?) who defeats the Mule. Her
>grand-daughter also figures prominately in the preservation of the
>Second Foundation.  (BTW: From other readings of Asimov's works - I
>think the grand-daughter is a fictionalized version of Asimov's own
>daughter).

Nice idea. Unfortunately, "And Now You Don't " (the second half of
Second Foundation) was originally published in 1949, and Robyn
Asimov was born in 1956.

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 02:37:14 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction

milne%ICSE.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
> - a better shot than either Luke or Han -- I can't offhand recall
>   any shots she fired, in any of the 3 films so far, that missed
>   -- excepting only a couple in Empire where she was firing blind.
>   Even guided by the Force, Luke could barely do as well.

Obviously.  Remember that she is Luke's sister and the force is
strong in here as well as in him. Even without formal training, I
can believe that she would be a skilled warrior.  Anyway, she
probably had expert training in small arms, under the reasonable
assumtion that the aristocracy got that kind of training.

Scott Schwartz
{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Jun 87 0815-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #266
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 87 0815-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #266
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 266

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov (7 msgs) & Card (2 msgs) &
                     Foster (2 msgs) & Friedman & Pournelle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 02:52:23 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
> moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark) lists a sequence of
> Asimov books that form a series:

Ok.  Remember the "Lucky Starr" series?  It was a series of
nominally children's SF that Asimov wrote at some point.  I've
always liked it.  I believe it could be worked in between "Robots
and Empire" and "Pebble in the Sky", with some suspension of
disbelief to ease the process. (i.e. the enemy is from Sirius,
rather than Aurora or the other known Spacer worlds, some of which
are given contemporary designations in "Foundation and Earth" based
on more plausible stars.) Comments?

Scott Schwartz
{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 87 09:00:34 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Asimov's Empire

There was a short story set in the Trantor/Empire/Foundation
universe which concearned the only intelligent nonhuman species ever
found.  I can't remember the title, but it was collected in _The
Early Asimov_ (I think).  The story explains what happened to them
and why they did not figure in any of the other story in this
universe.  (Although he could still bring them back if he wanted
to).

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 15:57:16 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L.
From: Smith)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) writes:
> Ok.  Remember the "Lucky Starr" series?  It was a series of
> nominally children's SF that Asimov wrote at some point.  I've
> always liked it.  I believe it could be worked in between "Robots
> and Empire" and "Pebble in the Sky", with some suspension of
> disbelief to ease the process. (i.e. the enemy is from Sirius,
> rather than Aurora or the other known Spacer worlds, some of which
> are given contemporary designations in "Foundation and Earth"
> based on more plausible stars.) Comments?

No, non, nyet, please!  There's nothing worse than watching these
authors try and bend together all their different stories into a
single universe.  Let's not add to the problem!  I haven't read the
Asimov transition stories, but the ones Heinlein wrote (Number of
the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) are horrible.

The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with
different universes in mind.  Any ideas on just why Asimov would
want to force-fit all his stories together?  Yech!

David L. Smith
sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave
ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave
hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 87 03:07:15 GMT
From: schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
> The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with
> different universes in mind.  Any ideas on just why Asimov would
> want to force-fit all his stories together?  Yech!

Good point.  My feeling is that he got nostalgic about it all these
last few years.  You know, he realized that it could be done and so
he did it.

(Now you've got me going...)

By far the most unsatisfying part of the whole attempt was his
introduction of the 'eternals' (from "The End of Eternity") in
"Foundation's Edge".  Purportedly (as stated in TEOE) the entire
existence of the eternals was removed from our universe... so how
could they be known of?

Scott Schwartz
{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!schwartz

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 87 13:44:59 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>schwartz@swatsun (Scott Schwartz) writes:
>> Ok.  Remember the "Lucky Starr" series?  ...  I believe it could
>> be worked in between "Robots and Empire" and "Pebble in the
>> Sky"...
>No, non, nyet, please!  There's nothing worse than watching these
>authors try and bend together all their different stories into a
>single universe.  Let's not add to the problem!  I haven't read the
>Asimov transition stories, but the ones Heinlein wrote (Number of
>the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) are horrible.

Agreed! "Foundation's Egde", that short story in novel's clothing,
was not a bad story - would have been reasonable as one fourth of a
Foundation novel - but the bending and twisting to make everything
fit was pitiful to read.

>The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with
>different universes in mind.  Any ideas on just why Asimov would
>want to force-fit all his stories together?  Yech!

Easier than to think up a new story.

Some years ago I dropped a once favorite western author because he
had begun to take old short stories and turn them into complete
books with the excuse that "he had not known the full story when he
first wrote aboute it". Ugh! At least Asimov hasen't started that
yet.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 15:57:00 GMT
From: quirk@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

There seems to be one book missing from this series:

The Rest of the Robots

It contains some more Susan Calvin stories (Including the second
attempt at (Asimovian) hyperspace).

Well, that's my $0.02.

T. Kogoma
quirk@europa.unm.edu
{gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 18:19:10 GMT
From: lll-lcc!leadsv!berg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gail Berg)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

I've read a couple of the Lucky Starr books and enjoyed them.

Another set of books he wrote, with his wife Janet, is about Norby,
a robot with an interesting history.

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 21:43:20 GMT
From: princeton!hhb!rob@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert R Stegmann)
Subject: Speaker for the Dead

Hi folks,

I just finished _Speaker for the Dead_, sequel to _Ender's Game_,
both by Orson Scott Card, and the latter the winner of various
awards.

In summary, I enjoyed it.  In fact, I thought it far superior to
Ender's Game!  More texture, better "crafted."  At some points Card
approached the quality of Herbert for intricacy of plot, and Asimov
for well-constructed mystery.

Hey, I enjoyed E'sG, too, but SftD is less likely to draw criticism
for appealing only on the basis of childish wish-fulfillment.  And I
hate it when people knock SF for that.  I mean, how much popular
fiction fails to appeal either because you want to be the hero, or
because you are glad you're not the hero?

I'd like to toss a coupla ideas at ya.

[No real spoilers below; won't make sense until you read the book
anyway.]

1) Did the Lusitanians' "treaty" with the Piggies strike anyone
   besides me as paralleling that of the early American settlers
   with the American Indians?

Do you suppose the parallel might occur to anyone in the story,
given that American history is ancient history indeed at that point?
How about to Demosthenes?

What do you suppose would happen if the Piggies got hold of a
history text, and made the connection for themselves?  Seems to me
they would decide they, as a race, would have to be very subtle in
their dealings with Humanity, so as not to endanger themselves, but
also not to be exploited or pushed out of existence.  I, for one,
would like to see some of their enigmaticism restored.

2) Does anybody besides me feel a little uncomfortable about
   trusting the Hive Queen?  I mean, doesn't Ender seem pretty
   thoroughly brainwashed?  I mean, it's not as though he's an
   impartial observer now, huh?

3) I'm looking forward to installment no. 3.  Gotta happen - look at
   all the dangly bits:
   - Starways fleet on its way
   - Valentine on her way
   - Miro going off to meet Valentine
   - Jane's book
   - Hive Queen
   - etc etc etc
   Anybody got any poop on the release date?

Robert Stegmann
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!hhb!rob

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 87 20:31:17 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Speaker for the Dead

Norman Spinrad notwithstanding, I enjoyed both _Ender's Game_ and
_Speaker_, the latter more than the former.

rob@hhb.UUCP (Robert R Stegmann) writes:
>3) I'm looking forward to installment no. 3.  Gotta happen - look
>   at all the dangly bits:...
>   Anybody got any poop on the release date?

I personally do not feel that a sequel is necessary, although I
suspect that when it comes out, it will be quite good.  The third
volume of the Ender saga will be entitled _Ender's Children_. It is
not currently under production. Scott said recently that although he
has outlined the novel several times, he has not set Word One on
paper; he doesn't feel that he is a good enough writer yet to do the
book justice.  Besides, he's spending most of his time working on
reviews (including, of course, his review magazine _Short Form_) and
the _Tales of Alvin the Maker_ series (a six-volume fantasy epic set
in an alternate XIXth century America), the first volume of which
(_Seventh Son_) is due out in hardback late in June.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!kjm

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 May 1987 14:26 CDT
From: Darrell Johns <XDWJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: MAGIC and SCIENCE

    Another book (or series of books) that deal with science and
magic is the SPELLSINGER by Alan Dean Foster.  In the SPELLSINGER,
what is science in our world is magic in the world in which this
story is set.

    The story revolves around a grad student who is gated from our
world into the other world and his adventures as he tries to adjust
to his new surroundings while trying to get home.

    I am midway through the third book of the five book series and
while it is more fantasy than science fiction, Foster manages to
work science into the story as magic nicely.  I have enjoyed the
series very much so far and would recommend it to others.  As a side
note, this story by Foster isn't a rewrite of movie or book, this
stuff is a Foster original.

Darrell Johns.
BITNET:  XDWJ@ECNCDC.BITNET
ARPANET: XDWJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
U.S. SNAIL: Educational Computing Network
            Cottonwood Office Center 1
            Cottonwood Road
            Edwardsville, IL  62025

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 20:11:31 GMT
From: seismo!sun!apple!tecot@RUTGERS.EDU (Ed Tecot)
Subject: Re: MAGIC and SCIENCE

From: Darrell Johns <XDWJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>    Another book (or series of books) that deal with science and
>magic is the SPELLSINGER by Alan Dean Foster.  In the SPELLSINGER,
>what is science in our world is magic in the world in which this
>story is set.

An excellent book.  As a matter of fact, I read this due to a
recommendation from this newsgroup.  The cover says "book 1", are
there sequels to this story?

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 01:11:14 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (MAJOR SPOILERSs)

perry@inteloa.intel.com writes:
>Yes, I liked this style very much. It gives the author a way to
>track a character for a long time and show psychological changes
>without invoking the usual `inside knowledge' routine. In fact, in
>the whole book there are only

I should have mentioned, though, that I thought Friedman [btw, I
have no idea if C.S. Friedman is a man or a woman] opted for just
telling the reader something just a few times too many.  Admittedly,
in this type of book [what I like to call the funny name genre],
this is often necessary, especially in a book of this size, but just
a little more showing and a little less telling would've been nice.

>Interesting. What episode struck you as `utterly dumb'? I've just
>finished the book yesterday, and on first reading I found nothing
>qualifying. Boring and somewhat irrelevant perhaps, but dumb?

I forget.  I knew when I was reading it, but I can't remember.  It
had a lot to do with the melodrama trap in the funny name genre.

>I don't know about you, but to me it feels... wrong, somehow.

Me too.

>I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their
>`honorable hatred' to constructive ends, recognizing that their
>love-hatred was benefiting them both (and, perhaps, their
>cultures). I was *fearing* that Friedman would just kill him off
>(too simple, that). But this?

I think any ending would have been disappointing in some way.  Most
of the obvious ones would have come off as just plain stupid, and I
think that's something Friedman wanted to avoid.  This one comes
across, to me, as being incomplete.
    I think that anyone reading the book, though, will have an
ending or two in mind before the end of the book.  I know I had a
few, my favorite of which had the two of them having a kid.  I found
the actual ending disappointing because I felt as though I had been
lied to - Friedman basically set up a this-universe-isn't-big-
enough-for-the-two-of-us situation, and then didn't let us cash in.
But that along isn't good enough, there are plenty of rabbits that
could have been pulled out of the hat.  Friedman, I think, just
didn't succeed in making the reader feel as though anything was
resolved - there were too many overtones of destiny and the future
for the story to end where it did.

>Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to
>prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh!

I think there are other endings that would have provided better
avenues towards a sequel.

>I should add, per explanation, that throughout the book I've kept
>my sympathies for Zatar, as well as his enemy. Does that make me
>emotionally unacceptable?

No!  I think that that was one of the central concerns of the book -
that you shouldn't pick sides between the two of them.

Another ending I would have liked would have been the
heavily-hinted-at unresolved ending where it seems as though Zatar
is out of her reach forever - that would have left the thing open to
a sequel, and, I think, cashed in on the feel of the book.  That
mixed with another confrontation on caliber with the one from the
middle...  And despite everything, it wouldn't have been more
unsatisfying than what actually happened.  In any case, the
chronological ending aside, I thought that the epilogue was
extremely well done, and fit just right.  It was another one of
those episodes that wasn't quite, but almost could have been a short
story in itself.  I would be extremely interested in finding out
what was the first part of the book Friedman wrote, or what the idea
was that inspired the book.  There are so many different idea
banging around, I'm led to wonder which insignificant detail set it
all in motion.  Anyhow...it was a good book anyway, despite the last
chapter, the beginning of which was very good.  Y'know, just the
last little bit of that chapter was all that seemed off, too...well
the Epilogue was the last bit I read and it was excellent.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 May 87 15:21:23-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%THOR@hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: Janissaries III

In case anyone's interested, Pournelle's "Janissaries III: The
Storms of Victory" has been out in hardcover for at least two weeks
now.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Jun 87 0833-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #267
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 87 0833-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #267
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 267

Today's Topics:

            Films - Fantasy Movies & Terminator & 2001 &
                    Eraserhead (2 msgs) & The Raven &
                    Japanimation (3 msgs) & 
                    Star Trek IV (2 msgs),
            Television - Hitchhiker's Guide on TV (3 msgs) &
                    Star Trek: TNG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 21:31:18 GMT
From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin)
Subject: Re: fantasy movies

I just read an article that mentioned "The Dark Crystal" and
realized how much I liked it as a fantasy movie.  The
muppets/puppets were good too.

On the topic of puppet movies, "The Neverending Story" was a good
tale. Especially for kids..  Particularly innovative was an evil,
that was within the main character, and the concept that in our
modern day and age technology -- fantasy is dying.  a message we
should all take to heart.

I just got another bit of inspiration from the above comment.
Disney has been turning out GOOD fantasy for decades.  Except I am
afraid to admit "The Sword and the Stone" (except the battle of
magic between Merlin and Madam Mim - but see an earlier posting of
mine), and the live-action films.

Damn there was another one but I cannot remember it now.

oh well.
Marcus @ur-cvsvax

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 87  15:05:34 EDT
From: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: About Terminator:

One late night on TV, I saw a VERY BAD movie (circa 1955) called
CYBORG 2087.  It starred Michael Rennie as a cyborg sent into the
past to change history and prevent the use of an invention called
"radio-telepathy".  Which was used by a future government to control
its populace.

Another cyborg is sent after him, but goodness triumphs in the end.

It seems to me that in anywhere but a court of law, the idea of
cybernetic beings going to the past to change the present is a
pretty generic concept in science fiction.

Matthew Saroff

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 87 07:40:50 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!ken@RUTGERS.EDU (Ken Karakotsios)
Subject: Re: 2001

   Although I would bet that all the random colors were put in for
no better reasom than "they looked good", the very last part where
Bowman is in the room may have some substance.  He is apparently
going through a metamorphasis, changing into the "star child" or
whatever it was called.  Kubrik seemed to be trying to show a
non-linear flow of time. Bowman seemed to be present at the same
time (for the observer) at several different points of time in his
metamorphasis. Perhaps this all was to convince you that the
monoliths were created by an intelligence which not only knew how to
control space and time, but also stayed at a few really nice hotels
over the years.

Ken Karakotsios
Silicon Compilers Systems Corp.
sci!ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 87 11:57:35 EDT
From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Eraserhead (SPOILERS)

I recently saw Eraserhead for the third time this past Saturday
(second time was on Friday) and I think that I've finally figured it
out.  The movie tries to show that LIFE IS A DISEASE which we spread
by SEX.  A nice, sick premise.  In the movie the true
disgusting-disease quality of life begins to break through to our
level of reality, starting with the baby, then a little later with
Harry (remember when his neighbor sees him with a bizarro head?).
All through the film, Harry exerts a twisting influence on the
people around him, who are strange to begin with.  I could go on for
a bit more, but I won't unless someone wants to hear it: mail me if
you like, and I'll rant in private, although I'll be glad to discuss
in public.

(END SPOILERS)

A suggestion to anyone who is going to see the film: Drink plenty of
coffee, as the film is rather, well, agonizingly slow.  Coffee
helped me greatly on the second and third viewings, as opposed to
the first viewing when I was falling asleep.  I have a friend who
claims that the film shoves you through a time warp: it only lasts
an hour and 25 minutes, but it takes at least a full 2 hours out of
your life.

Jeremy Bornstein

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 87 15:50:56 GMT
From: mimsy!nbs-amrf!warsaw@RUTGERS.EDU (Warsaw)
Subject: Re: Eraserhead

RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET writes:
> The whole section from when the "hero's" head pops if in the
> radiator after listening to the cauliflower-faced woman singing,
> falls into the street, is taken to a pawn shop by a small boy, and
> made into pencil erasers is probably

Yeah, but what about the part where "our hero" cuts the bandages off
his mutant chicken baby and all his chunky cottage cheese guts come
spilling out? Incredible bit of cinematic brilliance. Lynch is a
genius!  |:=)

warsaw

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 87 09:47:45 EDT
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.ARPA>
Subject: Movies - The Raven

   The movie "The Raven" was recently mentioned. This movie starred
Boris Karloff, Vincent Price, Peter Lorre and a very young Jack
Nicholson. As I recall it is an extremely funny movie with Karloff
and Price a wizards in competition and each using Lorre as a middle
man. A lot of fun...especially the wizards duel at the end.

Wes Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 87 11:57:46+0900
From: tamori@sonyvd.sony.junet (Hirofumi Tamori)
Subject: Japanimation

 Hayao Miyazaki( Of course you know? the director of
'Nausikaa','Laputa'...  Do not pronounce as 'Hey-yeah-oh', his name
sounds nearly 'Ha-ya-o'.)'s new animation movie is coming next
spring.

 The title is "Tonari no Totoro"(if translating in English without
thought, 'Totoro next door' ).

 It is neither an adventure nor a Sci-Fi, perhaps it is a kind of
faily tale.
 According to its outline appeared in animation magazines, the
opening is as following; two little sisters met a very strange
creature on a rainy day, and they called him 'Totoro'...
 (Recently, the word 'creature' often means 'monster' I think.
'Totoro' is NOT a monster but a sort of faily judging from the
illustration in the article on the magazines. )

 In the article, Miyazaki says that he cherished the theme of this
picture for a long time from his days of an animator. I am longing
for the completion of the movie( but more than three quarters of a
year it takes ).

 Thank you for reading my poor typing. Please use your power of
inference on reading my awkward English !!

Hirofumi Tamori
tamori@sonyvd.sony.junet

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 22:08:40 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: New movie by Miyazaki...

     I've just seen some magazines on Nausicaa and I'm very
impressed with the artwork.  I'm looking forward to finding some way
of renting it.

Cheers!

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto
(416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 02:20:02 GMT
From: princeton!dartvax!holly@RUTGERS.EDU (Holly Cabell)
Subject: Re: New movie by Miyazaki...

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>I've just seen some magazines on Nausicaa and I'm very impressed
>with the artwork.  I'm looking forward to finding some way of
>renting

It's not really all that new.  I've seen it and it's very good.  The
bearded people got to me after a while, but the plot and the artwork
are very good.

The main character has some really fun flying scenes that make me
wish I could have a machine like she does.

There are also some fantastic shoot 'em up scenes in the clouds that
are fascinating.  Hope you get a copy soon, 'cuz you'll love it.

By the way, if you like Japanese animation, check out a nationwide
group (here in the US) called C/FO, Cartoon/Fantasy Organization.
You'll find a lot of people with that interest as well as some good
connections for getting films like Nausicaa.  If you want the
address, mail me a not and I'll see if I can find it.

Ian Cabell
holly@dartvax

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 87 16:13:25 GMT
From: im4u!milano!mcc-pp!ables@RUTGERS.EDU (King Ables)
Subject: Re: STIV complaints

6062871 (Raj Manandhar) writes:
>sutherla (I. Sutherland) writes:
>>    Also, why is the new Enterprise a Constitution Class ship? I
>> thought that they were obsolete.
> Indeed. And I thought that keeping the same name was pretty tacky,
> but probably necessary for the audience. But did you notice the
> new identification number? NCC-1701A, no less (the old one was
> 1701)!  That was too much. But at least they revamped the
> interior.

I don't recall them EVER saying the Constitution Class was obsolete.
They said the Enterprise was 20 years old and there would be no
refit.  This isn't to say that they weren't building new ones (which
in fact, the obviously WERE building new ones as I doubt seriously
they could build a completely new Enterprise in the few months all
this took place!).

The Shuttle Enterprise is old, too, and COULD be refitted to fly in
space... but we don't do it, we just build new ones.  You only patch
something so long before you just replace it.  That's what they've
done.

And adding the A at the end of a commission number is fairly
standard practice with destroyed military vessels from what I hear
and read.

king
ARPA: ables@mcc.com
UUCP: {gatech,ihnp4,seismo,ucb-vax}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!mcc-pp!ables

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 02:44:06 GMT
From: rjd@nancy (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: STIV complaints - actually: Space Shuttles

ables@mcc-pp.UUCP (King Ables) writes:
>build a completely new Enterprise in the few months all this took
>place!).
>
>The Shuttle Enterprise is old, too, and COULD be refitted to fly in
>space... but we don't do it, we just build new ones.  You only
>patch something so long before you just replace it.  That's what
>they've done.

A small point, but: no, it could not be refitted to fly in space. If
it could, we would do it - it still costs close to a billion to make
a space shuttle...The Enterprise's fusage cannot take the stress of
space travel and re-entry, nor does it have *any* of the
instrumentation required. (I am not even certain that it has fuel
tanks.) It was engineered to simulate the aerodynamic aspects of a
shuttle so the powerless landing procedures could be tested. It
could no more take to space then a Beachcraft could...

Rob DeMillo
Brown University
Planetary Science Group
UUCP: ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!rjd
      ...{seismo!harpo}!ihnp4!brunix!europa!rd
BITNET: GE702025@BROWNVM

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 10:35:14 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!warwick!rolf@RUTGERS.EDU (Rolf Howarth)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide on TV; Computer Graphics

dougie@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Dougie Nisbet) writes:
>Interestingly enough, 'None at all' is exactly how much Computer
>Graphics were used to simulate The Guide speaking. I'm not too sure
>how it was

I realise that the "Computer Graphics" were actually animated by
hand - I wasn't referring to their implementation but the effect you
saw on the screen. It always strikes me as odd that people judge
effects by how expensive the equipment was with which they were
generated, rather than on the impression created on the viewer by
the **effect** itself.

There was a lot of fuss made about the computer graphics in TRON,
for example, but I personally found the effects in that film rather
tedious and unimaginative. Sure it's nice to see what can be done
but one should always remember that computers are **tools** - a
means to an end rather than the end itself - which may or may not be
the most appropriate one to use in a particular situation.

>I'm often suprised how much people like the TV series compared to
>the Radio series - I would agree that GENERALLY the TV series
>follows the radio series, but to be more accurate, the TV series
>MISSES OUT a lot which is on the radio. e.g. When the site of the
>Bypass is being opened and the local Pain-in-the-A. councillor is
>making a speech.

This particular scene only occurred in the radio series as I recall,
and was I believe dropped by Douglas Adams himself in later
versions, eg. play, record, book (? - I'm not sure if it's in the
book or not)

The main thing that irritates me about the TV series is Sandra
Dickinson as Trillian - a high pitched whining blonde with a degree
in maths and astrophysics?!  Eee-yuk!

Rolf
Dept. of Computer Science
Warwick University
Coventry,  CV4 7AL
England
Tel:    +44 203 523523 ext 2485
JANET:  rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame
UUCP:   {seismo,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 17:31:10 GMT
From: harvard!linus!faron!markan@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: HHGTTG Graphics &c

dougie@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Dougie Nisbet) writes:
>Interestingly enough, 'None at all' is exactly how much Computer
>Graphics were used to simulate The Guide speaking. I'm not too sure
>how it was

rolf@warwick.UUCP (Rolf Howarth) writes:
>It always strikes me as odd that people judge effects by how
>expensive the equipment was with which they were generated, rather
>than on the impression created on the viewer by the **effect**
>itself.

I was impressed by the simulated 'computer graphics' on the
television show.  It wasn't until the second or third show that I
realized that they *weren't*.  For that matter, there's a lot of
things a good animator can do that a computer, no matter how well
programmed or how much the machine cost, could ever do.

>There was a lot of fuss made about the computer graphics in TRON,
>for example, but I personally found the effects in that film rather
>tedious and unimaginative. Sure it's nice to see what can be done

I'm glad someone else has that same feeling.  I thought I was the
only one.

>The main thing that irritates me about the TV series is Sandra
>Dickinson as Trillian - a high pitched whining blonde with a degree
>in maths and astrophysics?!  Eee-yuk!

Unfortunately, that stereotype fits a disgustingly common image of
'female sidekick', even if she wasn't like that at all in the other
versions.

Da svidaniya,

Mark Nowacki
The MITRE Corp.
Burlington Road
Bedford, MA  01730
UUCP: linus!faron!markan
ARPA: faron!markan@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 17:24:14 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide on TV; Computer Graphics

>dougie@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Dougie Nisbet) writes:
> There was a lot of fuss made about the computer graphics in TRON,
> for example, but I personally found the effects in that film
> rather tedious and unimaginative. Sure it's nice to see what can
> be done but one should always remember that computers are
> **tools** - a means to an end rather than the end itself - which
> may or may not be the most appropriate one to use in a particular
> situation.

Frankly, my question is "who went to Tron for the plot?"  (It was
REAL weak, there, folks- we are talkin' STILLBORN!)

I went to watch huge-screen graphics, to see what could be done with
enhanced-image computer graphics.

It was intreresting. Still think my favorites were the tanks...  But
then, I read David Drake, too. 8-) (what an AMAZING coincidence! The
author of _Hammer's Slammers_, _Forlorn Hope_, etc..... (by the by-
they AREN'T just mercenary shoot-em-up crap. Take a read. Some of
the characters are a bit deep.))

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 17:41:27 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: ST...TNG Questions?

Okay, here's the story.  I'm going out to LA next week and while I'm
there will get a chance to visit shooting of Star Trek:The Next
Generation.

So, what questions would you like answered?  Things I may not think
to ask.  No guarantees (they may ask me to keep my mouth shut...as a
matter of fact, they'll PROBABLY ask me to keep my mouth shut), but
the net deserves a shot at this.

Please don't ask me to ask questions that can't be answered, or ones
that are too specific (ie. what station will be showing the show in
Rome, NY?).  No matter what, I promise a report when I get back.
Ideas?

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Jun 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #268
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #268
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 268

Today's Topics:

                Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Lewis &
                        Spider Robinson & Tolkien (2 msgs) &
                        White

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 00:06:15 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

dlw@pdp.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Daniel Weigert):
>sgreen@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>> Anyway... the thing that sticks in my mind, and throat, is the
>> scene toward the beginning of FRIDAY, in which Friday, the main
>> character, is brutally gang-raped. She rather enjoys the
>> experience (working on the 'if rape is inevitable, relax and
>> enjoy it' theory), and comments to herself that while the
>> technique of rapist A leaves much to be desired, rapist B isn't
>> bad at all.
>>
>> This is a repulsive attitude toward rape, which is NOT enjoyable.
>
>I didn't get that at all from the scene.  If you recall, the reason
>she was being raped was to force information from her.  She was
>trained in this situation to "cooperate" with the inquisitors a) to
>stall, and b) to frustrate them.  I don't happen to agree with this
>SOP

May I remind everyone that if you play with fire you should expect
to get burned?  Friday, as a combat courier in *that* screwed-up
world, was (in my opinion) in the biggest bonfire ever; is it
surprising she has ``mental asbestos''?

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 16:17:08 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L.
From: Smith)
Subject: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

Ok, Heinlein fans and bashers, here's an interesting tidbit for you:

On the cover of The Cat Who Walks Through Walls is a couple we
presume to be Hazel Stone and Richard Ames.  Problem - Richard Ames
is explicitly stated to be *black* in the novel and the man on the
cover is white.

While in the Council Chamber, we meet Sky Marshal Samuel Beaux, who
is described as being "as beautiful as a black panther."  I'll take
this to mean that he is black, not white.

Several pages later on, Ames and Samuel Beaux (referred to
endearingly as "Sambo" (no, no it's not - gasp - Heinlein racist
flames! (and nested parenthetical comments, too] are having a fight.
Ames say "Look, boy, I'm mighty glad that your skin color matches
mine."

Now, who the hell is the white man on the cover?  Enquiring minds
want to know!

David L. Smith
sdcsvax!sdamos!sdeggo!dave
ihnp4!jack!man!sdeggo!dave
hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 23:53:54 GMT
From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!terry@RUTGERS.EDU (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

>>I have read one and only one book by Robert A. Heinlein: "Stranger
>>in a Strange Land".  I hated it.  I hated it so thoroughly that I
>>will extend that feeling to the author, and state "I hate
>>Heinlein".  I will never again read anything he has written.
>
>As the saying goes, "Try it, you'll like it."
>
>Heinlein didn't get to be the dean of science fiction for nothing.
>He's good.

Correction.  He WAS good.  I am a devoted science fiction fan.  Have
been ever since I learned to read.  I grew up with Heinlein.
However, somewhere around the beginning of high school he came out
with ``Stranger in a Strange Land.'' It was trash.  I hated it.
Since then I have attempted to read later books of his, but I just
can't take them.  I don't know what happened to him, but that (to
me) was the turning point.  He hasn't written anything worth reading
since then.

I would encourage Mark to read any of Heinlein's earlier works--for
the most part they are quite good.

In my opinion: (note, this is my opinion and since I'm telling you
up front this is only my opinion all devotees of RAH can hold the
flames.)
   He tells a good story.  And while all he was doing was telling
the story things went great.  I think someone must have convinced
him that ``great literature'' requires ``deep moral philosophy'' and
he then decided to write ``great literature''.  The only problem is
his ``deep moral philosphy'' ain't so deep and certainly lacks a few
morals.  To me (hint :-) he comes across as pompous, as a dirty old
man, and in many ways as a hypocrite.

(Remember, this is only my opinion.  I don't expect to see any
flames on the net.  You may burn out my mailbox if you so desire.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 87 16:50:01 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Re: Why do we hate Heinlein?

worley@dana.UUCP (John Worley):
>     I though the book, like many of Heinlein's works, was overly
> long, tried to set up too much and had too many coincidences.  I
> must disagree with the previous posting which complained about
> Friday's settling down and raising children at the end: 1) She
> only had one child, the one implanted in her on Earth, as she was
> sterile, and 2) she was very much a community leader, as was
> explained in the last chapter.  The point of the pregancy (OPINION
> ->) was to finally prove to Friday that she *was* a human being,
> not an "artifact".

To add my own opinion: her settling down and joining the community
drove it (her being a human being) home.  And she *was* a leader
within the community.  Which doesn't affect the question of whether
the community was ``correct''; then again, we don't see very much of
it.  The question of the ``place'' of women is open, as far as I can
tell.  (In a close-knit society, social organizations such as the
PTA and the Rotary Club could be very important.)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 16:32:49 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!watvlsi!watdcsu!mschuck@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Narnia, yet again

pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes:
>One point about Susan, though. Given that the children love their
>sister, could Heaven be perfect without her?

    In another of Lewis's books (The Great Divorce) he tackles this
problem.  I believe his argument runs along the lines that the
damnation of another person cannot, by one iota, affect the
happiness of those in Heaven, (which by definition is perfect).  I
don't remember the exact passage except that it bothered me at the
time.  (The context was a wife whose weaselly husband was trying to
get her to "get him in".)

Does anyone remember exactly how it went?

Mary Margaret Schuck

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 87 12:33:55 EDT
From: dml@nadc.arpa (D. Loewenstern)
Subject: "Melancholy Elephants"

From: harvard!wjh12!lsrhs!diamond@RUTGERS.EDU (Beth Abrams)
>Subject: Re: Movie Flame Plagarismic huh?

From: rthr%ucscb.UCSC.EDU@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Arthur Evans)
>(various examples omitted here)
>>I'm sorry if I sound shrill -- what I'm really getting at is that
>>you folks are taking what seems to me an excessively legalistic,
>>capitalistic stance on this matter.  Plots and genres were not
>>considered a form of personal property until nations started
>>passing copyright laws.  I, for one, find these laws scary
>>sometimes.  If Shakespeare was alive today,
>(other examples omitted)
>
>There is a story by Spider Robinson on this very subject.  It's
>called _Melancholy_Elephants_ , in the anthology of the same name.
>It deals with a prospective law that would make all artistic
>copyrights *perpetual*, no statue of limitations whatsoever.  The
>implications of this are explored fairly thoroughly.  I found
>myself reevaluating my own ideas of 'ownership' where Art is
>concerned.  It's worth reading and thinking about, as is most of
>Spider Robinson's writing.

I too read "Melancholy Elephants", and *usually* I like Spider
Robinson.  However, I found ME extremely troubling, because ME was
not concerned so much about the effect of perpetual copyrights as
about the effect of permanent archives.  Although the plotline was
based upon perpetual copyrights, the question was not who should
make money off ideas, but whether ideas should be remembered at all.
If SR really believed what he wrote, I don't know why he bothers to
write in the first place.

(*spoiler*)

ME seems to state that it is the nature of Art to be repetitive --
that there are only so many interesting, valuable artistic
statements one can make, and that, if we remembered all previous
art, we would be condemned either to repeat old art with minor
variations, or give up artwork altogether (and that the time when
all valuable artistic statements will have been made is in the
reasonably forseeable future -- decades or centuries, not billions
of years).  (*end of spoiler*)

This sounds suspiciously like the statements attributed to several
scientists at the end of the nineteenth century, that science had
nearly learned all it was going to learn, and that the future held
only theoreticians plugging tiny little holes in theories which had
attained full maturity by the early 1900's.

SR appears to believe that societies are like finite state machines,
and that therefore if a discovery or new work causes society to
reach some previously unknown state, there remains one fewer state
that the society could possibly achieve.  Certainly there is no
evidence for this view so far -- each new discovery has opened the
way to more possible discoveries.  I would propose that societies
are more like infinite state machines (for example, the Turing
machine) because they are capable of unchecked expansion
(Malthusians might disagree with this statement).

Far from ruining Art, perpetual copyrights would force us to
confront the question of how much Art really is derivative -- but I
feel that this would cause us to create better Art.  Unlike SR, I
don't dismiss the possibility of creating new art forms -- and new
types of artistic statements -- as only a temporary solution.  The
universe is vast, and we have explored very little of it, both in
Art and Science.  Furthermore -- something SR fails to take into
account sufficiently -- is that new art forms often invigorate old
art forms.

I do not like the idea of perpetual copyright only because of
economic grounds -- I don't want the descendents of geniuses to be
rich (and therefore powerful) because of their ancestors' greatness.
I would like to see well-run databases of art, so that an artist can
compare his ideas to those of his predecessors easily, thereby (I
hope), making it easier for an artist to detect strains of
derivation in his/her own work.

David Loewenstern
Naval Air Development Center
code 7013
Warminster, PA 18974
dml@nadc

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 18:24:03 GMT
From: nw@amdahl.amdahl.com (Neal Weidenhofer)
Subject: Re: Silmarillion vs. LoTR vs. Hobbit vs. Cottage of Lost Play

adb@elrond.CalComp.COM (Alan D. Brunelle) writes:
>2. As to Gandalf's role in LoTR I would think that it is quite
>clear that his (and the other Istari) purpose was to assist the
>Free Peoples in their fight against Sauron by forming a last great
>union of the Peoples. I don't think that he is in any way THE
>saviour of the West, but more in the light of THE coordinator of
>the west. It was he that got ALL of the different nations to
>concern themselves with the menace.  (If you would like me to
>choose my pick for THE saviour of the West, it would have to be ...
>Samwise Gamgee! Read the LoTR carefully, and you will realize that
>Sam really carried Frodo from the time that they left the company
>to the Fire of Doom. If that Ring were not destroyed all of the
>valiant efforts by Aragorn and Gandalf &c would have come to naught
>- of course without the valiant efforts by the above the chance to
>destroy the ring wouldn't have happened...)

I think that it's his role as coordinator that earns him the title
of "saviour".  He, along with Aragorn, Galadriel, and Elrond was
also the chief strategist.  They all had their parts to play,
including Meriadoc and Peregrin; but, without Gandalf to pull them
together the rest would have been ineffectual at best.

Neal Weidenhofer
Amdahl Corporation
1250 E. Arques Ave. (M/S 316)
Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3470
(408)737-5007
{hplabs|ihnp4|seismo|decwrl}!amdahl!nw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 87 21:38:05 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Frodo's words about the Ring's effect

Somebody mentioned a little while ago the chilling passage of
Frodo's in Mordor in which he describes what the Ring is doing to
him -- and, of course, what it would do to all the West if Sauron
were to get it back.  I didn't reply immediately, because I wanted
to be sure I had the quote exactly right.  Here it is.

[Sam says: "Do you remember that bit of rabbit, Mr. Frodo?  And our
place under the warm bank in Captain Faramir's country, the day I
saw the oliphaunt?"  And Frodo replies:]

"No, I am afraid not, Sam.  At least, I know that such things
happened, but I cannot see them.  No taste of food, no feel of
water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no
image of moon or star are left to me.  I am naked in the dark, Sam,
and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire.  I begin to
see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."

If that isn't horrific, I don't know what is.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  1 Jun 87 01:40:05 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Deadly litter?
To: amdahl!drivax!macleod@AMES.ARPA
Cc: Space@ANGBAND.S1.GOV,
From: amdahl!drivax!macleod@ames.arpa

Good writing but poor science.  He is off by many orders of
magnitude.  Litter may someday be a problem in low Earth orbit, but,
consider the volume of interplanetary space.  The volume of the
solar system within Jupiter's orbit is well over 1.6E36 cubic
meters.  If every person on Earth owned their own spacecraft, flew
it constantly, and discarded one piece of litter per second for a
century, that would be about 1.5E19 pieces of litter, or one piece
per 1E17 cubic meters.  If the average spacecraft had a
cross-section of 100 square meters, and traveled at 10 kilometers
per second (much faster and the litter would hurtle out of the solar
system), it would collide with a piece of litter about once every
3000 years on the average.

Yet White portrays littering as a very serious crime, and despite
extreme precautions taken, many spacecraft are destroyed by
collisions with litter.

It is clear that he has no feel for the sheer size of the solar
system.  He has done worse.  He portrays chance meetings in
interstellar space, which ought to happen approximately never, even
if every star system has a million starships associated with it,
which travel constantly at half the speed of light and which can
detect any other starship within the Earth-moon distance of it.

And of course there is _The Watch Below_, in which several
generations live for over a century aboard a sunken WWII ship, by
cranking a generator to power light bulbs to grow green plants which
produce oxygen, in violation of a few laws of thermodynamics and
common sense.

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  3 Jun 87 0804-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #269
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jun 87 0804-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #269
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 3 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 269

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & E.E. "Doc" Smith &
                    Vinge & White & Tom Swift & Robots &
                    Sexism in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 13:54:21 GMT
From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks)
Subject: The Asimov Chronicles

The idea of a continuous Galactic history occurred to Asimov a long
time ago. Around 1948 he published a short story entitled 'Mother
Earth', which concerned the Declaration of Independence of the
Spacer worlds, and thus comes between Susan Calvin and Elijah
Bailey. This story contains very clear forward references to the
subject matter of `Robots and Empire`, published almost forty years
later.

`Mother Earth' is, I think, the last story in `the Early Asimov, Vol
3', at least in the UK.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 18:13:20 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!watvlsi!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>Agreed! "Foundation's Egde", that short story in novel's clothing,
>was not a bad story - would have been reasonable as one fourth of a
>Foundation novel - but the bending and twisting to make everything
>fit was pitiful to read.

SPOILER: Foundation and Earth

What's worse, it didn't tie things together properly.  The race of
superhumans on Earth, created through the "synapsifier" at the end
of "Pebble in the Sky" was nowhere to be seen.  These humans could
read minds and think far faster than other humans.  They had the
powers of R. Giskard or a member of the second foundation.  They
were not limited by the laws of robotics.  Daneel should have been
no match for them.  Where are they?  They didn't form Gaia, which
might have been one idea.  Where are they?

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1987 09:05 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Doc Smith, Ellern, Lensbeings, etc

>William Ellern wrote a couple of stories, "New Lensman" and
>"Triplanetary Agent ...  Does anyone know if the stories were ever
>published elsewhere

A paperback edition of "New Lensman" has been published - as an
"Orbit Book" by Futura Publications Ltd, 110 Warner Rd., Camberwell
London SE5 9HQ, UK, 1976. My Copy comes from the Popular Book Centre
Rochester Row SW3, London, UK.  At the front there is a "TO WHOM IT
MAY CONCERN" note that is dated July 14 1965 and signed Edward E
Smith which states:

   "I hereby give William B. Ellern permission to lay his stories in
   my Lensman universe: and to use copywrited material identical
   with or similar to that embodied in his manuscript entitled MOON
   PROSPECTOR."

I preferred it to Kyle's work because much of the plot develops from
the logical implications of the technology of Civilization at that
time and fits neatly with the other books with only one or two
jarring elements.

On the other hand I missed my favourite alien being - Worsel - who
is (of course) in Dragon Lensman.

Some Misc. Notes on "Children of the Lens"

Incest: Chapter 13 "Clarissa takes her L-2 Work" The author
describes how Kim inreases his mother's mental/Lens powers.  I have
often wondered - are there a couple of paragraphs of sexual imagery
or have I read too much Freud?

Sexism/Genderism: Try the Golden Age of TV sometime to get the
context!  Against this back ground (ONLY) "Children of the Lens"
appears feminist.

Humor: Chapter 3 has a delicious parody of the space opera. Chapter
5 paints a malicious view of writers.

Finally - a provokation:
           Is the whole saga just "Miami Vice in Space"? (:-))**n

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 87 23:09:49 MDT
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Joan D. Vinge article

I too enjoyed reading the Vinge article.  I did have one thing to
harrumph about -- the main reason why Vinge seemed to think Benford
and Spinrad were sexist was that they had criticized THE SNOW QUEEN.
If she had picked an example a little less close to home, I might
have felt more sympathetic...  I personally didn't like THE SNOW
QUEEN and I don't see how that proves I'm a sexist.  What sorts of
things did Benford and Spinrad really say that were so outrageously
sexist, anyway?  I admit that I haven't read any letters or reviews
by Benford or Spinrad which mentioned THE SNOW QUEEN...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 02:22:51 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Deadly litter?

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
>... it would collide with a piece of litter about once every 3000
>years on the average.
>
>Yet White portrays littering as a very serious crime, and despite
>extreme precautions taken, many spacecraft are destroyed by
>collisions with litter.

3000 years, eh?  Well, let's envision a world that has 1,000,000
spaceships in it.  That comes to about 300 collisions/year.  The
point isn't the numbers, though.  The point is that it is impossible
to take the chance.  I wouldn't like it at all if my best friend was
killed by somebody else's "beer can."  Nor would anyone else.  Life
tends to defy the odds to no end, so why risk it?

We don't send radioactive waste into the sun for the same reason,
basically.  There is a definite, though small chance that there
might be an accident and wide-spread contamination.  The Challenger
disaster showed that.  Would you be willing to take the risk?
"Sure," you might say, "I could get killed by a hailstone falling."
but would you seed a cloud to produce hail and then stand under it
and say, "The odds of me getting hit are X to 1." ?

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 87 17:35:40 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Tom Swift

   Has anybody realized that there is (maybe was) a new Tom Swift
series now?  I ran across it a few years ago.  As a kid, I had all
the Tom Swift Jr. books from the fifties and the sixties, and many
of the original Tom Swift books from the teens through the thirties,
so I bought a couple to see what they were doing with the concept
these days.
   I didn't much like the way they set these stories up.  The TSJ
books made frequent references to the original TS books, were set in
the same locale and had Tom's father still married to Mary Nestor
etc, but the new ones don't seem at all concerned with the history
of the series.  Tom's hometown 'Shopton' has been arbitrarily moved
from New England to New Mexico and none of the characters from TS or
TSJ repeat though there is ample opportunity for them to do so.
Also, the new Tom is much more of a team player than the inventing
genius that the original TS and TSJ were, and he has been given two
companions seemingly solely to provide the minority/female/
handicapped balance missing (and worse than missing in the first
series) in the earlier series.  (This is not a bad thing, but it
kind of reminded me of a new edition of a math book I had in 7th
grade.  Comparing it with kids who had the old edition, the only
difference was that half of the word problems now used female
imaginary people rather than male.  It could have been done
better).

All this said, the books were not badly written or plotted, but not
something to spart a real revival of the series.  Give your kids the
old books if you can find them (with a talk about history and
stereotypes in the case of the first series).  Or give them Rick
Brant - the best written series from the Grosset and Dunlap
juveniles (Hardy Boys, Tom Swift, Nancy Drew, Bobsey Twins,
Christopher Cool, etc).  Those stories still hold up.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Jun 87 09:11:48-PDT
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: robot names for computer

   I didn't see any mention to the robot "brain" that successively
runs the subject's spacecraft and his mechanical horse in the
_Warlock_ In_Spite_Of_Himself_ series by Christofer Stasheff.  He
called it "FESS" which I believe was an acronym.  Of course, maybe
you don't want to name a computer after a neurotic robot which
tripped its circuit breaker every time it got a problem that was
really tough to handle.

dale

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 87 22:27:16 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%ICSE.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sexism in Science Fiction

>The backlash against feminism became apparent in shoot-em-up,
>special-effects vehicles, like the first Star Wars movie. Princess
>Leia is the standard "damsel in distress," whose main contribution
>to the plot is the fact that she owns the 'droids, and programs
>R2D2 to get help from a man -- Obi-Wan Kenobi.

While I think your thesis is probably correct, this example doesn't
seem to me to serve it.

Leia is several things in these films:
 - commander-in-chief of the Rebellion (the senior generals answer
   to her).
 - the one who sent 3PO and R2 away to Tatooine while she stayed
   behind to face the Empire -- very carefully and deliberately
   being sure to fall into the troopers' hands, but when she wanted
   it, and not before.
 - a better shot than either Luke or Han -- I can't offhand recall
   any shots she fired, in any of the 3 films so far, that missed --
   excepting only a couple in Empire where she was firing blind.
   Even guided by the Force, Luke could barely do as well.
 - the one who refused to break under Vader's torture.
 - the one who killed Jabba the Hutt -- and not by poisoning,
   electrocuting, or shooting him, but by whipping a chain (not even
   a rope) around his neck and strangling him by main force.  etc.

She is not idle, she is not passive.  She is a mover and a doer.
I'm not sure why she winds up leaving more and more of the command
decisions to her command staff (I'm thinking of Jedi now), but I
suspect that, besides wanting the decisions to be made by the most
experienced people she can get, she also wants to be more involved
in the real action.

So I fear that she is not really the example you wanted.  Shouldn't
worry you too much though.  I expect there is an unfortunate number
of examples that will do you just fine.

Alastair Milne
PS.  I also doubt whether Obi-Wan's being male had anything to do
with it.  the entire reason for the mission was to bring General
Kenobi back to Alderaan, to help the Alliance as he had helped in
the Clone Wars.  When her ship was captured, she sent on the droids
to complete as much of that mission as was still possible.  She was
not simply choosing the nearest male she knew of for help -- in
fact, she did not ask his help for herself at all, but for Alderaan.
She could have had little or no hope that she herself would ever see
him.

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 01:22:35 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Feminism/lineage OUT OF PLACE is bad writing!

Gideon Sheps was responding to an article that complained about
Tolkien's use and apparent view of women (and their place, etc.).
If you've been following along, you should remember that Eowen has
been used as a prime example for whatever argument started this
stuff... hell, that's about all I can keep straight, but then I'm a
wee bit sleepy...

Anyway, Gideon's remarks reminded me of something I saw/heard at a
reading some time ago (at least a year, but what does that matter?).
Guests were Ursula LeGuin (can anyone out there give me the title
and/or publication date of a story about naming -NOT related to
Earthsea- that she had published in the New Yorker?), Samuel Delany,
and L. Sprague deCamp.  This last read a HUMOROUS short story set
sometime in (I believe) late 19TH CENTURY (but I'm terrible with
time periods...), which involved a man who had discovered or made a
pair of spectacles (glasses, silly) that enabled him to see through
people's clothing (okay, people, what's the title? (sigh)).  OF
COURSE it was sexist!  And adorable, and as far as I could tell (and
by now we should ALL KNOW what experience/education I'm lacking :^)
it was very well done - very much an old story type thingy.  Hell, I
don't even know where the style comes from, but I KNOW I've seen
it...

ANYWAY... The two women who were sitting beside me, who had
obviously come to see LeGuin and possibly Delany, got extremely
sour/displeased/disgusted looks on their faces during Sprague
deCamp's reading, and when he was done they complained to each other
(loudly enough that they might have almost felt strongly enough to
speak out to the audience) that the committee or whatever should
have been able to get someone better, and how dare they present this
sexist asshole?  They were ANGRY about this, thought the organizers
stunk for allowing it to happen, thought deCamp stunk (as an Enemy,
after all) for writing (assumed BELIEVING) such crap, thought the TM
(Columbo, I think) was a sexist asshole for applauding deCamp and
making jokes that related to what had transpired in the story...
Well, you get the picture.

What kind of readers are these?  Would they, favouring the taste of
watermelon, say that a writer was BAD and that he should not be
allowed to present his work at a public gathering because he chose,
at some point in his career, to write a humourous story concerning a
future Earth/earth in which farmers stopped planting watermelons and
caused the species to die off completely after an incredible low in
the number of lawn-parties being held across the world?  Sorry, bad
example (but I like it enough to leave it in! :^).  Okay: ...because
he chose, at some point in his career, to write a humorous story
concerning a future earth in which, although other melons were
acknowledged as excellent sources of All The Good Stuff, watermelons
were ridiculed, used to sell aircars, and generally thought not to
have a single worthwhile use (see Buckaroo Banzai...) other than as
a source easy pleasure at lawn-parties the world over (`Oh, sure, he
wants to eat me now, but will he respect me in the morning?' :^),
... well, how dare this asshole writer present such a bad story,
which shows such extreme prejudice against watermelon?  (Oh no!
This is a sure sign of Melonism!)

I've digressed (but I've had FUN).  The point (as if you haven't
seen it coming) is, well...  What exactly do these people consider
good?  Shakespeare was damned sexist according to our times.
Probably according to his as well (but he's had FUN).  What other
names do I know that you might recognize?  Thomas Hardy?  The Bronte
sisters?  Um...  If they read only literature in which women are
treated -by the writer and the characters and the actual point of
the story- exactly as they see or want to see them, their range is
far more limited even than mine!

What does this have to do with Tolkien?  Hell, I surely don't know
(`-much about anything' yeah, yeah, save your breath/fingers); did
he mention watermelons EVEN ONCE in Lord Of The Rings?  NO?!!!
(Quick - it should only take you a few hours -or so- to check...)
Maybe -just MAYBE, mind you- he was writing about a place in which
watermelons (not to mention lawn-parties) had not yet been
discovered.  Or maybe -just MAYBE- he had chosen to write about
characters that didn't like watermelons.  Does this make his story
bad?  It may be unenjoyable for some, but lack of reasonable
watermelonness does not a bad story make.

(Mind you, from what I saw of his?her? article, the netter Gideon
was responding to did not say that because the views found in LotR
were displeasing the whole work could be said to be unenjoyable
and/or badly written.  I was just inspired is all.)

I never did get the point of Masque World.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  3 Jun 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #270
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jun 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #270
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 3 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 270

Today's Topics:

       Books - Friedman & Title Request & Answers (2 msgs) &
               Best Fantasy & Expanded Short Stories,
       Television - Star Trek: The New Generation &
               Kirstie Alley & The Prisoner & Fantastic Journey,
       Miscellaneous - Ellipsoidal Planets (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 May 87 01:26:52 GMT
From: motown!sys1!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Review: _In Conquest Born_ (no real spoilers)

perry@inteloa.intel.com says:
> So? This is an ending?! It just doesn't fit into the flow of the
> story, it feels like a major *break*.  I was *hoping* for
> *synthesis*, that they would turn their `honorable hatred' to
> constructive ends, recognizing that their love-hatred was
> benefiting them both (and, perhaps, their cultures). I was
> *fearing* that Friedman would just kill him off (too simple,
> that). But this?

I agree. The ending of the book was the worst part of it. When I
read it, I said "huh? Huh? This is an ending? This looks more like a
sequel-seller!". The ending was not satisfying at all.

> Somehow it reeks almost of a moral afterthought - after all, he's
> a mass murderer in an evil society, so he's got to get his
> punishment before the story ends, right? After Friedman has
> managed in all the story not to pass moral judgement, this idea
> feels AWFUL to me.

**** SPOILER ALERT *****

I don't think it's a moral afterthought. His "punishment" is
personally disastrous, but I don't think it'll harm his status as a
ruler at all.  Remember that the Braxanna already have a reputation
for being aloof, superior, somewhat greater than human. They were
already spiritually isolated from each other and from the common
people. This just makes him physically isolated, too.

> Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to
> prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh!

That's my impression,too.

> I should add, per explanation, that throughout the book I've kept
> my sympathies for Zatar, as well as his enemy. Does that make me
> emotionally unacceptable?

   If so, then I am, too! Zatar is BAAAAADDDDDD. A rational evil,
one of the worst kinds.  Yet, considering his environment, I can
think of no other way that he could be -- which I think was the
point of a couple of the episodes that seem otherwise "irrelevant
and 'boring'". And compared to some of his fellows (e.g.  the sadist
raised on a planet of 'barbarian' women)... well, you pass
judgement.
   And with people such as the head of the psychic institute, who
regularly warped and distorted minds... I think that one of the
points was that those who do evil for "good" causes are no better
than creatures of pure evil.

  BTW, did Harkur seem pretty darn telepathic to you?! And what was
that comment about "doing to us what we did to Lugast" (about the
updating of that planet on the far side of the dust cloud)? Is that
something to do with Braxin sending technology to AZEA somewhere in
the distant past? Yes indeed, it does seem like we're being set up
for a sequel or prequel or something of the sort....

Eric Green
University of SW Louisiana
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg%usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 23:41:39 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Need book title

A number of years ago (6? 7?) I began reading a novel which I
couldn't finish - for a number of reasons.  I would like to find it
again, and finish it this time - but don't know the title.

Plot summary:

Silicon Vally hacker-type has "weird event" and finds himself in a
desert somewhere in the middle east.

It's the Epic of Gilgamesh - all over, with our hacker the side-kick
of Gilgamesh himself.

Title anyone?

John M. Pantone
GE
Calma R&D
Data Management Group
San Diego
{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 21:28:32 GMT
From: mimsy!tewok@RUTGERS.EDU (Uncle Wayne)
Subject: Re: title/author request

MICROMGR@BCVAX3.BITNET writes:
>   How about a book in which the main character is transported to
>another dimension through an intergalactic travel-agency's goof,
>then has to try to return on his own...I can't remember much more,
>except that the copy I was reading had a predominately red
>cover...its probably rather old given that it was from my father's
>collection, and I started it some 7 years ago (and never finished
>it...i lost it too soon)

This sounds somewhat like Mindswap by Robert Sheckley.  The main
character takes a vacation by swapping minds with someone on another
planet, only to find that the body he's been swapped to was
overbooked.  He is given some small amount of time to find a new
body before he is forced out.  It gets a little weird from there.  I
hope this helps.

Wayne Morrison
ARPA: tewok@brillig.umd.edu
UUCP: seismo!mimsy!tewok
Computer Science Dept.
University of Maryland
(301)454-7690

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 87 06:36 PDT
From: JSanders.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #256

>Does anybody remember a book, that I read about '74 that had on the
>cover an alien face with sharp pointed filed teeth, and a story
>about some guys that go to a planet and convince the locals to farm
>their brethern, who grow fat and happy, only to be tortured to
>extract a drug called Herogyn, which is produced (or so the
>earthlings convince them) when they are tortured.

I believe it was 'Men in the Jungle,' but they took the Herogyn with
them and used it in an attempt to overthrow the local government.
The plot was: a military expert and a political expert escape defeat
with a spaceship filled with drugs and attempt to carve out a new
place for themselves.

John

------------------------------

Date: 2  Jun 87 20:54 +0800
From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Book request...

I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST*
fantasy stories to read. As an example, I have read The Lord of the
Rings and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, some
years ago, and I thought they were great. More recently, I read 'The
Sword of Shannara', (a gift) the first book only, and I thought it
STUNK!.  Is there anything more out there that isn't attempting to
rip off TLotR ??  I am afraid my reading has been somewhat limited
to SF so my knowledge of Fantasy is severely lacking....  Also, I
would like a list what would be the top 10 SF novels of the past few
years(5-7 years??)  These may or may not be the Nebula award
winners...And while I am at it, What is Spider Robinson's SF like? I
have seen his books, but never read anything by him, except, I
think, 1 short story (or an excerpt) but that was too long ago to
remember.  ( This is just for my own personal interest, not for any
compilation..)  Many thanks.

Natalie

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 21:01:56 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Expanded short stories?

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>Some years ago I dropped a once favorite western author because he
>had begun to take old short stories and turn them into complete
>books

I have often wondered what the order of creation (short stories vs
novels) was in another author's case:

I read (in several places) A. E. van Vogt's "The Weapon Shops" and
was amazed years later to find a novel _The Weapon Shops of Isher_
containing the entire short story in several chapters throughout the
novel.  It fit well, but the novel added a new dimension to the
original story (and provided an interesting basis for Creation, as
well!).  (I also read the sequel, _The Weapons Makers_.
Unfortunately, the last sentence of that one always makes me laugh;
was it a joke?)

I also read a short story called "The Rull", and a story
anthologized in several places, "The Sound" (I think).  They both
later turned up as chapeters in a rather episodic novel called _The
War Against the Rull_.  In this case it seems clear the novel was
built out of existing pieces.

I would be interested in knowing more about the sequence and history
of the above stories, and of other examples of this sort of thing (I
already know about the Foundation trilogy).

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 87 17:42 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST:TNG Sexism

I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New
Generation.

But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star Trek.
We had a whole 79 episodes where males commanded in every instance
(Ensign Chekov being given the con over Lt. Uhura), with the top
upteen (at least 4) command officers being male.  Was it so
unrealistic of me to hope that one of the two top officers of TNG
would be female?  I had decided it was so.

But, thanks to Marcus's kind offer, I've been watching Quark.  And
it bugs me that in that semi-enlightended 70's show, with
sterotypical dumb blonds and rather sexist Gene/Jean humor 1) the
second-in-commands WERE female 2) in every meeting of commanders,
there seemed to be a woman.

Heck, if QUARK could do it, surely ST can!  Was Gene Roddenbery so
burned by his attempt to put a woman in the First Officer position
in ST's first pilot that he'd never risk it again?

Or is it just the rabid feminist in me that makes the cast of TNG
rub me the wrong way?

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 12:31:04 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Kirstie Alley

For all you folks bitching a while back about how much better
Kirstie Alley was as Saavik...you'll get your chance to see her as
Sam Malone's new boss on Cheers.

She's put there after Sam sells the bar to a big conglomerate, no
word why Sam sells the bar (or why he still works there).

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 15:23:51 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: The Prisoner, episodes 3 & 4

This series of commentaries will cover all 17 "Prisoner" episodes.
The first two episode commentaries have been posted already in a
previous msg.

******SPOILER******

Episode 3: "A, B, & C"
Number 6 is the subject of a new experimental method by the village
authorities. His captors are able to enter his mind in his dreaming,
create new dreams, and add new characters to his dreams. In an
attempt to learn why he resigned, three different characters, code
named "A", "B", and "C" are each introduced in Number 6's dreams,
which itself takes the form of a dinner party in the suburbs of
Paris. In this personal victory for Number 6, he turns the tables on
his captors. Number 2 is defeated. But there will always be a new
Number 2. A personal favorite of mine.

Episode 4: "Free for All"
Number 6 is invited by Number 2 to enter a political race for
elective office. In his politcal campaign for Number 2's position,
Number 6 discovers that he had little choice in the matter and the
campaign is fixed from the start. And in the end, it again turns out
to be another ploy to break Number 6, this time somewhat more
harshly than previous interrogations. In particular, a dutiful
though care-free French maid turns out to be the new Number 2, and a
particularly hostile one at that.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 87 14:20 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Fantastic Journey
Cc: ames!pyramid!osu-eddie!francis@RUTGERS.EDU (RD Francis),
Cc:  lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK)

"Jarad"--the actor's name was Jared Martin (later to appear in a
season or so of Dallas) and I think the character's name was Varian.
He was definitely my favorite character.

As I recall, Roddy McDowell did one of those "presto chango"
routines and turned from a bad guy to a good guy in a few episodes.

From what little I saw of it, it seemed like a pretty good show.
I'd love to see it again.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 17:11:35 GMT
From: wrs@pupthy.princeton.edu (William R. Somsky)
Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets

>> From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>> The ellipsoid planet will give severe differences in
>> atmospheric pressure ...

>From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
>No it won't.  Ignoring mountains and valleys, any planet will
>have an equipotential surface.  Air pressure will be the same
>everywhere on the "sea level" surface.
>
>Hal Clement (Mesklin) seems to have realized this, but Larry Niven
>(Jinx) apparently has not.  Robert Forward (Rocheworld) also got it
>right.

Niven's rationale was that Jinx was originally much closer to, and
in tidal lock with, "Primary" (I believe that was the name of the
super-jovian Jinx was a moon of) Hence, at the time it's crust
cooled, the tidal forces due to Primary caused the equipotenial
surface to be ellipsoidial.  After crust formation, Jinx's tidal
drag on Primary drove Jinx into a higher orbit.  As the distance
from Primary increased, the tidal forces of Primary on Jinx
decreased, and the equipotential surface became more spherical.
Being liquid and gaseous, the oceans and atmosphere then assumed a
spherical shape, but the planet itself, now solid, kept it's
ellipsoidial shape.  Hence the "East" and "West" ends stick out
above the atmosphere and a vast sea encircling Jinx's girth.

I don't know if the tidal effects would be severe enough to cause
this scenario to take place without pulling Jinx apart, or having it
undergo massive seismic disturbances as the tides decreased, or even
if you could get a strong enough tide to make Jinx significantly
"out of round", but the point is: The equipotential surface that was
in effect when the crust formed, dictating it's shape, need not be
the same as the current one, which dictates the shape of the oceans
and atmosphere.

William R. Somsky
Physics Dept
Princeton Univ
wrs@pupthy.Princeton.EDU
PO Box 708
Princeton NJ 08544

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 21:07:41 GMT
From: crew@decwrl.dec.com (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets

...you realize, of course, that Earth itself is ellipsoidal

(well, if you really want to nitpick, the bulge is actually a bit
south of the equator so we're really talking about a pear-shape...)

Roger
Crew@sushi.stanford.edu
{everywhere.else}!decwrl!crew

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 87 22:34:15 GMT
From: hplabs!intelca!mipos3!martin@RUTGERS.EDU (Martin Harriman)
Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets

The materials planets are built from are not very strong, even in
their "solid" state--so even a "solid" planet (unlikely for
something of the size of Jinx) could not support a frozen
non-equipotential surface.  Since most large planets should have
enough fission heating in their core to keep them warm and squishy
inside (that is, give them an asthenosphere), this seems even less
likely.  Oh well...

Martin

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 87 21:21:06 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!percival!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard
From: Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ellipsoidal planets

   Actually, I have always been under the impression that Jinx was
orbiting closer to its primary when it solidified. It has since
spiraled out (as has our moon) thus reducing the tidal forces.
   If this wasn't the case, the gravity at the "ends" would match
that at the equator.
   I'm fairly sure that Niven actually mentioned this in one of the
stories.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jun 87 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #271
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 87 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #271
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 271

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Baum (2 msgs) & Bester &
                     Brin & Cameron & Eddings & Foster &
                     Hamilton & Jones & Niven &
                     Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Smith (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1987 12:16 EST
From: Rodney Elin <KL791C%GWUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Asimov's Mega-ology

>dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>> The Asimov books seem to have been written separately, with
>> different universes in mind.  Any ideas on just why Asimov would
>> want to force-fit all his stories together?  Yech!
>
>Good point.  My feeling is that he got nostalgic about it all these
>last few years.  You know, he realized that it could be done and so
>he did it.

Not only did Asimov get nostalgic about it these last few years, but
so did his publisher, Doubleday.  From the introductions to his new
books, as well as several interviews and appearances, Asimov
strongly implied that he was pressured (read "offered great sums of
money") into writing yet another Foundation book (Foundation's
Edge), and yet another Robot book (Robots of Dawn) in the early
eighties (1982 and 1983, I believe).  The success of these prompted
the publisher to contract (read "give still more money than before")
with Asimov for still more books in the series' (note plural, until
now, there were three different series: Robot, Empire, and
Foundation.)  These included Robots and Empire, Foundation and
Earth, and (gasp) another in the works.

The problem does not particularly lie with trying to "work all of
the different series' together." They were all written as stories
that were played out in the same universe, more or less. They were
not mutually incompatible.  Asimov, like many SF and Fantasy
authors, has created a "plausible universe" in which the majority of
his works are set.  Just like the real universe, most of what
happens in one small part doesn't affect what happens in another
small part (or even time, as the case may be) The stories,
therefore, can be set in the same universe, and have nothing to with
each other.  Asimov, though inconsistent in some minor details in
the works, does show how all of the events in his universe are
intertwined by focusing on the major events that actually did affect
other places/times in his universe. (i.e. the fate of Earth, the
origins and development of psychohistory, etc.)  In many of his
earlier works, he experimented with the nature and history of this
"plausible universe", especially dealing with robots.

Many authors tackle this concept of one universe, many stories.  One
other example (not too well tied together) is Ray Bradbury.
_The_Martian_Chronicles_ is a collection of stories, all dealing
with Mars, and all in some sort of jumbled chronology, and even with
many conflicting events.  But they all take place in the same
universe.  Even his refrences to the events of _Faranheit_451_ in
the short story "Usher II" show the continuity of universe
throughout many of his works, not just one book.

Also, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. comes to mind with
_Breakfast_of_Champions_, _God_Bless_You_Mr._Rosewater_, and
_Deadeye_Dick_, all of which are set in the same "plausible
universe" yet have very little otherwise to do with each other.

No, the problem with recent Asimov works does not lie in the fact
that he tied his previous series together.  The problem is one of
publishing.  Asimov has reached the point now where he doesn't have
to sell his books to the publisher, they contract with him even
before he writes the stories down.  For each of his last few novels,
Doubleday has paid him to write "a 400-page novel as part of the
Robot series" or something like that.  What is wrong is that the
stories are able to be told in far, far less than 400 pages (more
like 150-200), so what comes out is a lot of repetitious dialog that
neither advances the story nor enhances the characterizations,
therefore the stories tend to get rather tedious, although good and
very typical Asimov in all other respects.

Question: It is true that Mel Brooks is making a Star Wars take-off?
if so, does anyone have any details?

Rodney Elin
Computer Information and Resource Center/User Sercvices (CIRCUS)
Center for Academic and Administrative Computing
The George Washington University
Washington, DC
Bitnet:  KL791C@GWUVM
Arpanet: KL791C%GWUVM@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 12:01 PDT
From: Trigg.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Looking for Tik-Tok

A question for all the Oz fanatics out there: Can anyone tell me the
list of Oz books that contain pictures (either the full page ones or
the small sketches) of Tik-Tok?  For example, I'd like to find the
one showing Dorothy winding up Tik-Tok.  I found a bunch of these in
Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib", but unfortunately, Ted included no
references.  This is for a friend who's looking for ideas for a
cover illustration for her book on human-machine interaction.

Please respond directly to me as I'm not on SFLovers.  Thanks much.

Randy
Trigg.pa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 02:50:16 GMT
From: ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Looking for Tik-Tok

From: Trigg.pa@Xerox.COM
> A question for all the Oz fanatics out there: Can anyone tell me
> the list of Oz books that contain pictures (either the full page
> ones or the small sketches) of Tik-Tok?  For example, I'd like to
> find the one showing Dorothy winding up Tik-Tok.  I found a bunch
> of these in Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib", but unfortunately, Ted
> included no references.  This is for a friend who's looking for
> ideas for a cover illustration for her book on human-machine
> interaction.

  _Ozma of Oz_?

I DO know that the plate you want is in the first book he appears
in.  One where Dorothy and the Hen go to Oz in a waterspout....
Seems like he was in a cave near the giant with the broom...

(Hey, it's been a while, OK? 8-)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 11:57:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Stars My Destination and Bester

Ken Papai BITNET: IKJP400@INDYCMS asked
>Does anyone know where I can find a copy of _The Stars My
>Destination_ ??  I've been drawing blanks for the last couple of
>years and I am getting desperate.  Maybe ANALOG magazine can
>help...

This has probably been already asnwered many times by now, but....
Well, if you want a hardcover copy, I just saw an advertisement in
the May Locus pp. 22-23 offering it from Franklin Watts, Inc.  Dept
SC, 387 Park Ave. South, NY,NY 10016.  They also say a few words
about it in the Books Received -March on p.38.
   I got my copy of it some 10 or 11 years ago at Barnes and Noble
(the real big one in NY). I remember reading it.  It just drew me in
and I couldn't help but continue reading it.  After reading that I
decided to read more Bester. I read _The Demolished Man_ which
disturbed me a little, but overall it was a good experience, _The
Computer Connection_ which was not very memorable, and then _Golem
100_ (sp?).  The ending of Golem really left a bad taste in my mouth
and completely turned me off.  I have not read any Bester since
then.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU  via Arpanet
OTTEN@UMCINCOM        via Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 13:54:21 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Uplift War and Stephen Donaldson (no spoilers)

I think David Brin has been looking at the Covenant books with envy.
Now *he's* branching out into 'improved English'.  From one
paragraph [italics mine]:

   "...and of course a gaggle of *cachinatous* humans.....
   She remembered her attitude then, upon seeing so many
   of the *atrichic, bromopnean* creatures."

With a good dictionary, a decent language background, and knowledge
of context, one can figure out what the words mean.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 04:35:39 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

holly@dartvax.UUCP (Holly Cabell) writes:
> On a different track, I saw a book mentioned that I would like to
> find again.  The book contained something about Tyco Brahe and a
> planet with mushrooms, or something.  Could someone find the
> author/title for me?  It would be much appreciated.  Thanks in
> advance.

It's a series of five books (juveniles) by Eleanor Cameron.  The
first is called The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet; others
are Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet, Mr. Bass' Planetoid, and Time
and Mr. Bass.  One of the main characters is named Tyco Bass (NOT
Brahe); hence those two titles.  I don't remember the other book, or
the order (though I suspect somebody will post them all sooner or
later).  I got somewhat the same impression with these as with
Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising; the first couple of books were
definitely written for children (age 10 to 11), but the writing
style matures through the series.  Not to say the later ones are
"adult" books, of course; just less obviously aimed at 10-year-olds.

jed hartman
{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 09:57:27 GMT
From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson)
Subject: Belgariad

Well, I've just finished reading the Belgariad.  It is possibly one
of the most enjoyable books I've read in a long time. Alright, most
of the plot was sign posted in the first book and the style of
writing was hardly classic, but I loved it!

And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about a
sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ?

Tony H.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 04:14:54 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: MAGIC and SCIENCE

tecot@apple.UUCP (Ed Tecot) writes:
>XDWJ@ECNCDC.BITNET writes:
>>From: Darrell Johns <XDWJ%ECNCDC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>>
>>    Another book (or series of books) that deal with science and
>>magic is the SPELLSINGER by Alan Dean Foster.  In the SPELLSINGER,
>>what is science in our world is magic in the world in which this
>>story is set.
>
>An excellent book.  As a matter of fact, I read this due to a
>recommendation from this newsgroup.  The cover says "book 1", are
>there sequels to this story?

I can't say that I have as high an opinion of Spellsinger.  Although
I wouldn't pan it, I can't quite recommend it either.  Probably the
single most irritating aspect of the book was that it was only half
a book.  You are left hanging at the end of the first book, and it's
either buy the second book, or not know how things turn out.

Now, I don't know if this is a common thing in publishing, but it
stinks.  It probably put me off of Spellsinger more than anything
else.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 19:55:54 GMT
From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

There is a sequel to "The Star Kings" by Hamilton, called "Return to
the Stars".

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 23:36:06 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Fire and Hemlock by Diana Wynne Jones

>Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
>I really enjoyed it [F&H], and think it's better than Charmed
>Lives, Dogsbody, or the Spell Coat. . .

Most of her books are worth reading.  See also "Witch Week", "Cart
and Cwider" and especially "Power of Three".  That last had the
incredibly bad luck to be published under the Magicquest (is that
how it's spelled?) logo which has excellent titles but which looks
like a create-your-own-adventure for seven-year-olds.

>FYI: *Dahlov Ipcar* expands Tam Lin in one novel, and the song
>Elf-Call in another.

In "A Dark Horn Blowing" she expands "Elf-Call", but also elements
of several other Child ballads including "The Outland
Knight"/"Pretty Polly".  In fact, she throws in *too* many ballads
for enjoyment.  Which book is the Tam Lin story in?

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 18:59:12 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Mega-ology

phil@rice.edu writes:

On Isaac Asimov:
>To prove that he's better than Larry Niven in consistency as well
>as writing ability?  :-) :-) :-)
>
>Don't get me wrong.....I like both Niven and Asimov.

I also like both authors, but I never quite believe in Niven's
characters.  They all seem a little too footloose and fancy-free to
me.  They also seem a little too infallible (even the fallible
ones).  I don't know, maybe they just make me insecure or something,
but they don't seem real for some reason.  I know, this isn't
reality, but the characters are so far out of the norm that it's
annoying sometimes.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 1987  10:53 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: SAROFF%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: About Terminator:

   Have you ever read Saberhagen's "Brother Assassin"?  It's about
an attempt by the Berserker Robots to send robot assassins into
various points in a planet's past in order to destroy that planet.
Naturally, there is also a human who is sent to stop them.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 13:07:45 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Re: About Terminator:

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
>   Have you ever read Saberhagen's "Brother Assassin"?  It's about
>an attempt by the Berserker Robots to send robot assassins into
>various points in a planet's past in order to destroy that planet.
>Naturally, there is also a human who is sent to stop them.

Oh boy, a Berserker topic to talk about. I'm a big fan of the
Berserker series. The difference between the robot assassin and the
Terminator is that the Terminator was enclosed in a living
biosphere. Thus he was externally a living human. Berserkers never
get close to human. They just send very efficient killing machines
which is what they are. I'll have to check my copyright dates on my
books. Did Harlan borrow from Saberhagen?  Just kidding. Berserkers
are nasty, nasty critters. I watched the movie "Short Circuit" with
a totally different perspective when it came out.

Royal White Jr.
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 15:22:35 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Lost E. E. 'Doc' Smith work

>Mentor very definitely discussed the issue of mates with one of the
>girls, resulting in her realizing that she was complete in herself:
>she did not need a mate.

Wrong on two counts.  First, she is brought to realize that she is
still too *young* for a mate.  She has been judging herself by
first-stage standards.  Second, we are told *explicitly* that she
does not yet realize that there already exists a man who is her
perfect mate.  By implication, this can only be Kit.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 13:03:29 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Green Lantern/Lensman

From:   aplvax!jwm      (Jim Meritt)
>       Has anyone else noticed the remarkable similiarities
> between D.C.'s Guardians of the Galaxy with their Green Lantern
> Corps and "Doc" E. E. Smith's Arisians with their Lensmen?

nActually, this is old news to a lot of us. The Green Lantern Corps
has always been a sort of tribute to Smith. Surely you don't think
it coincidental that two of the GL's are named Arisia and Eddore.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jun 87 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #272
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 87 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #272
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 272

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - First SF (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 13:10:46 GMT
From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
Subject: First SF Story

Well, I remember my first real SF/Fantasy book as being Anne
McCaffrey's 'DragonQuest'.  I had been an avid dragon fan as a
junior high student, and the cover of that book caught my eye & held
it.  It wasn't until after I had read the book that I realized I had
read the SECOND book of a series, so I naturally went back to my
local library & searched for 'DragonFlight'.

Needless to say, those books started an obsession with Fantasy
stories, and a slight digression into true SF stories.  I think of
myself of more of a fantasy fan than true SF (maybe its because of
all those Roman, Greek and Norse myths I read when I was very
young), but I enjoy a good SF book now & then.

I have a couple questions for all you netters; maybe someone can
help me.  First: Who were the authors (I know there are two) of the
'StarChild Trilogy'?  I remember reading it my freshman year of high
school, and haven't been able to find it since in any book store
around here -- I want to try to order it thru an out-of-print book
shop, if I can.

Second: Anyone out there know when (or If) the next story in 'The
Dragonriders of Pern' is coming out?

Joanne Brooks
U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr
Consulting Staff
Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu
Bitnet: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 04:13:44 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

My first exposure to sf was through a book that seems to have been
forgotten in recent times: Edmond Hamilton's "The Star Kings".  This
is unabashed space opera, makes really no scientific sense... and is
great fun.  I read it in a terrible Portuguese translation, under a
title translating as "War in the Galaxy".  I was eight or nine, and
I was *terrified*, especially by the scene where the villain (Shorr
Khan, I think his name was...) is about to wipe the hero's brain
clean.  Of course, it all works out well in the end.  The effect was
to create some unforgettable memories, and a lifelong interest in
sf.  I've since re-read the book more than once, and it seems to
still work (even though it is all absurd)... But maybe it's just all
those memories.

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 17:34:42 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

I've been waiting to see who was crazy enough to follow-up.  Now
that I see I'm in good company,...

I was about 7 or 8.  My only experience with sf was movies, and bad
movies at that: I thought "science fiction" was another way to
pronounce "Godzilla".

I read a book by Alan E. Nourse called _The_Universe_Between_
(which, coincidentally, was recently discussed here).  Actually, I'm
kinda surprised I could understand what a "matter transmitter" was:
it's a tribute to how well Nourse writes.

I picked it up in, of all places, the grade school library.  I
noticed the little rocket-piercing-an-atom (don't ask) on the spine,
stuffed my book- bag with everything in that library with that tag,
went home, locked myself in my room for a few weeks and read EVERY
DAMNED ONE OF THEM!

I still haven't fully recovered.

Bill Kaufman
seismo!ames!orion!kaufman
kaufman@orion.arc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 15:51:41 GMT
From: marcus@wanginst.edu (Bob Marcus)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Theodore Sturgeon.  And I have yet to find another writer -- in any
genre, from any country, in any time -- whose stories affect me in
the same way.  If not for the "stigma" of being a science-fiction
writer, he would surely be considered one of the great writers of
our time.  One person's opinion, of course, but I know that many,
many others agree.

Bob Marcus
Wang Institute of Graduate Studies
Tyng Road, Tyngsboro, MA 01879
(617) 649-9731
marcus@wanginst          (CSNET)
decvax!wanginst!marcus   (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 23:59:16 GMT
From: crew@decwrl.dec.com (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Hey, let's not forget that classic series by Victor Appleton II,
   Tom Swift.

I knocked off twenty-six of these (with titles like

Tom Swift and his Rocket Ship
Tom Swift and his SubOcean Geotron

) when I was sick with chicken pox back in 4th grade...

Actually, as I understand it, this was the second of 3 of these
series.  The first was by Victor Appleton I, was written in the
1920's, with titles like ``Tom Swift and his Motorbike,'' and had to
do with Tom Swift Sr., the father of the Tom Swift in the second
series.  The third series started fairly recently [within the last
10 years...] and I know almost nothing about it; I could take a wild
guess and say it's by Victor Appleton III, but who knows...

Doubtless, someone out there has a complete list of all of the books
in all three series ('' he said categorically...  :-)

Roger
Crew@sushi.stanford.edu
{everywhere.else}!decwrl!crew

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 21:00:28 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Lo these many years ago, in aproximately 1957 or 1958 I read a
couple of books in a series for young children which started me on
Science Fiction.

The single book I remember well, of the series, involved the common
2 characters (an astronaut-type and his cat) who went to Venus.
When there they found that the plant life was sentient, and,
furthermore, if they carried a piece of moss with them (in lockets)
they could read each other's minds.

I particularly remember marveling at the clever way the astronaut
made the lockets "turn-on and off" the mind-reading - one side was
lead; when turned against the body it would prevent the moss from
working.  I guess I was into "hard" science fiction even then!

Anybody remember the name of the cat and or series?

John M. Pantone
GE
Calma R&D
Data Management Group
San Diego
{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 11:30:54 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction
From: "Leeanna_Dibrell.OsbuSouth"@Xerox.COM

> ... So people, what SF story did you first read and why did it
> hook you to SF?

What a great question!  Ah, the happy memories.....The first science
fiction story I read at 8 was a Big Little Book (now these good for
a pretty good price, how I wished I had saved mine) called Flash
Gordon.  It opened a door for me into another more glorious world
than my boring, miserable, mundane I lived in.  Much like Dorothy
coming from a non-color world opening the door into Oz and
everything sprang into technicolor.

At 8 I had not heard the word science fiction but fell in love with
the genre right then and there and have continued reading and
writing it ever since.

Why did it hook me onto SF?

It showed me that there was something exciting and adventuresome
beyond the dull and restricted life I was leading.  It took me into
places I had never been which seemed believable (I always had a
great imagination so nothing in SF ever seemed incompatibe to my way
of thinking).  Also for me, as a female, it showed a woman going on
these adventures and being part of them (however limited as a go
along Dale Arden may have been).  I hoped someday, when I grew up,
that I would be able to have exciting adventures too.

That didn't happen exactly the way I had thought it would, but I
continue to enjoy the genre, cons, etc. anyway.

Leeanna

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jun 87 16:31:57 EDT
From: martinte@WPAFB-FDL.ARPA
Subject: First SF/F

My first experience with SF came in the form of a fantasy novel by
Terry Brooks _The Sword of Shanara_. I know this is not exactly what
Ewan is looking for,but it is all I have to offer. I picked this
book up about four years on a whim because I was tired of all the
mystery and horror novels that I had been reading.  After reading
it, I knew that I would be reading this type of novel for some time
to come. I had never read anything that fasinated me as much as that
book. I then preceded to read the rest of the Brooks series, and
followed that up with the six Covenant books by Donaldson. Because
of my initial SF/F introduction, I have never even read a *real* SF
boks until about a year ago with Chalker's( sp?) _Rings of the
Master_ Series. I am still plowing through my endless fantasy novels
and stories, but I believe I have found an even greater lover in SF.
Being on the net has given enough titles to keep me busy for the
next five years!! Thanks.

P.S. Would you believe I have **never** read a Heinlein book!!!

T. E. Martin
Wright-Patterson AFB
Dayton. OH 45433
(513) 255-6190

------------------------------

Date: 2 June 1987 16:38:16 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: RE:  First SF

Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories?  It's not the
absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back as I
remember.

Paul R. Pudaite
BITNET:  Pudaite@UIUCVMD

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 22:46:12 GMT
From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re:  First SF

From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories?  It's not
>the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back
>as I remember.

I recall "Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine" and something like
"Danny Dunn goes to Mars".  I recall that I appreciated Danny Dunn
because he had goals I could identify with at the time (such as
building a device to help him write his punishment sentences at
twice his normal speed).

No here's a question for trivia buffs; what was the name of the
computer in "Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine"?

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Jun 87 16:54:17-PDT
From: Diana Egly <Egly%THOR@hplabs.hp.com>
Subject: First Science Fiction

Unquestionably, it was the Dr. Dolittle books for me.  The premise
that one could study animal behavior and then use the results of
your reasearch to communicate with them is clearly a scientific
premise.  But I also remember the good doctor making a trip to the
moon...

My second science fiction was my involvement with another good
doctor in the I, Robot stories.  No, not Dr. A., but rather Dr.
Susan Calvin.  And I still love her...

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 03:03:13 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Most of the "first sf" postings seem to be about books that people
read when they were children.  I was wondering what books might be a
good first exposure to sf for an adult, especially for one already
interested in literature in general.  Did anyone out there start
reading sf under such conditions?  Do people have suggestions as to
which book one should recommend to a friend interested in trying sf
at least once?

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 04:15:39 GMT
From: princeton!dartvax!holly@RUTGERS.EDU (Holly Cabell)
Subject: First Science Fiction

I, too, read The Hobbit and the LotR, but, unlike many, it seems, I
found them very difficult to read.  I fell into the pattern of
reading several pages and then putting the book down for a month.
Perhaps I was too young, or perhaps I just found discovering a
civilization too much and would have preferrred just reading a
story.  Did anyone else feel that way?

On a different track, I saw a book mentioned that I would like to
find again.  The book contained something about Tyco Brahe and a
planet with mushrooms, or something.  Could someone find the
author/title for me?  It would be much appreciated.  Thanks in
advance.

Ian Cabell
holly@dartvax

------------------------------

Date: Wed 3 Jun 87 00:28:52-PDT
From: Robert Wentworth <WENTWORTH@Sierra.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: First SF

Heinlein and Tolkien hooked me on SF/fantasy in sixth grade.  (Back
then I thought of _Lord_of_the_Rings_ as "The Trilogy", not knowing
that "trilogy" was a generic term).

But a much more interesting memory relates to _Journey_Outside_, a
fantasy by Mary Q. Steel(e).  A school librarian read the first two
chapters to us in perhaps fifth grade.  I was intrigued, and wanted
to read the rest, but I didn't get a chance, and in fact didn't even
know the author or the title of the book.  I wondered about that
book for many years---I wanted to know how it turned out.  Finally,
seventeen or so years later, I went back to my old school library
and managed to find it.  Reading that book after so many years of
anticipation was one of the greatest joys I've ever experienced.

Bob W.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 06:31:11 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re:  First SF

PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET writes:
>Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories?  It's not
>the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back
>as I remember.

You mean like "Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine"? Sure, I
loved those books as a kid. There was one other I remember, which
had a new invention: A COMPUTER, which was capable of astounding
things such as algebra, word processing, and writing music (gasp
shock)! I don't remember the title though.  Anyway, greatly
entertaining books, even now when you don't want to stretch your
brain too much.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 16:48:16 GMT
From: khudson@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (Urlord)
Subject: Re:  First SF (experiences and recommendations for "adults")

ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes:
>PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET writes:
>>Does anyone remember the Danny Dunn series of stories?  It's not
>>the absolute first SF that I ever read, but it's about as far back
>>as I remember.
>
>You mean like "Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine"? Sure, I
>loved those books as a kid. There was one other I remember, which
>had a new invention: A COMPUTER, which was capable of astounding
>things such as algebra, word

They were fairly good childrens books for adventure type stories.
Several other story lines dealt with time travel, a freeze ray, and
a miniature camera and microphone setup in a mechanical fly (you
wore a helmet and basically became the fly).

I don't really remember my first SF/Fantasy story, but I do remember
my 4th grade teacher reading _The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe_
to the class.  She also tried to read _Jaws_ to us, but stopped when
she realized how "controversial" it is (especially to 4th graders).
I just read alot: mystery, SF, and Fantasy; I still have most of the
books that I've read.

As for recommendations for "adults", I think that three books by
Madeline L'Engle are great for "children of all ages".

_A Wrinkle in Time_
_A Wind in The Door_
_A Swiftly Tilting Planet_

If the person believes that the journey is more important than the
end, he/she should read the two Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R.
Donaldson.  They are long and difficult reading, (buy only the first
book to see if you like them) but they are very good.  At least
that's my opinion. /8^)

Kevin Hudson
UUCP: khudson@hawk.CS.Ulowell.UUCP
USnail: 85 Gershom Ave #3
        Lowell, MA 01854

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jun 87 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #273
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 87 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #273
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 273

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Friedman (8 msgs) &
                            Zelazny (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 11:39:35 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: In Conquest Born
Cc: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu

> [btw, I have no idea if C.S. Friedman is a man or a woman

woman.

>>I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their
>>`honorable hatred' to constructive ends,
>
> I think any ending would have been disappointing in some way.
> Most of the obvious ones would have come off as just plain stupid,
> and I think that's something Friedman wanted to avoid.  This one
> comes across, to me, as being incomplete.

It was left as a large grey.  Yes, it is somewhat incomplete, but so
is real life, last I looked.

I find the concept of synthesis fascinating.  How can two people on
cultures such as Friedman wrote even HOPE to come up with some kind
of true understanding?  They aren't just enemies, they are
culturally incompatible -- each was brought up to believe that the
others were baby eating heathens that were no better than the scum
of a sceptic tank.  Any thought that a person can fight their way
through centuries of social conditioning to come to some kind of
real relationship is unrealistic.  (From their point of view, it
wouldn't be love, it would be bestiality...)

>     I think that anyone reading the book, though, will have an
> ending or two in mind before the end of the book.

Yup, and the ending she took wasn't mine.  I liked it, though,
turning the one possible tool for hope into the ultimate weapon.  A
rather bleak ending, but I think an appropriate one for the cultures
involved.

> I think there are other endings that would have provided better
> avenues towards a sequel.

And I've been told there is no sequel planned. Friedman is currently
working on a second book that has nothing to do with Conquest.
(yay! don't ruin a good thing!)

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 19:45:18 GMT
From: umix!itivax!chinet!megabyte@RUTGERS.EDU (Dr. Megabyte)
Subject: Comments on reviews of _In Conquest Born_ (Minor Spoilers)

A lot of people have commented on how they don't like the ending of
this book.  Various things have been said about why it is bad.  I
liked the ending.  I am so sick and tired of books that tie up ever
single loose end and leave no room for the reader to explor his/her
own thoughts.  It _is_ an open ended ending. This give you the room
to speculate, discuss, and think about what the results on the two
cultures will be.

I don't buy that the ending is there just to set up a sequel as I
have it on good authority that C.S. Friedman is not planning a
sequel to _In Conquest Born_.

As to Zatar getting a "punishment" at the end, Nonsense!  Zatar will
adapt.  He will find a women whose psychic thougths during sex he
will be able to internalize.  As to a "punishment", well I kind of
like that the mighty Kaim'era _Finally_ has had something that
didn't turn out the way he planned it.  I mean all his life, ever
plan he has made has come off.  Isn't good to know he's not perfect?

Oh, anyone who thinks that Zatar and Anzha should have settled down,
ruled Braxi, and raised a family, should suffer the Black Death.

Mark E. Sunderlin
UUCP: seismo!why_not!scsnet!sunder
      ihnp4!chinet!megabyte
(202) 634-2529
Mail: IRS  PM:PFR:D:NO
      1111 Constitution Ave. NW
      Washington,DC 20224

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 09:59:41 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: In Conquest Born

> I don't think it's a moral afterthought. His "punishment" is
> personally disastrous, but I don't think it'll harm his status as
> a ruler at all.

Oh, no?  He's going to be completely useless in his dealings with
Azea, because he will know that he can be bested by them -- which
makes him useless as a ruler.  He's also be seriously affected
emotionally by something in a society where emotion isn't
acceptable.  And he's had his self-confidence shattered.  The other
Braxana will eat him like the sharks they are.

Being invincible and superior only works as long as someone doesn't
prove you wrong.  That's the basic problem with being macho -- it is
all ego, and if the ego is beaten, the whole basis for your
personality disintegrates.

>> Or is it - dread thought - just an after-the-fact alteration to
>> prepare for a sequel? Arrrgh!
>
> That's my impression,too.

Except, of course, that I've been told no sequel is planned.

If you read the book carefully, you'll find that the ending is set
up throughout the thing -- it isn't an afterthought. While Zatar and
friends are the obvious enemies, look closely at Azea -- they aren't
exactly shining examples of neat folks you invite to move in down
the street. In my eyes, Azea is the worse culture, frankly: the
Braxin, while nasty bastards, are at least open and honest about
their nastiness and warlike tendencies (and revel in them).  Azea,
on the other hand hides their warlust under a canopy of trying to
preserve the peace (through war).  And look at the psychic institute
-- they not only think nothing about taking a person and turning
them into a mindless weapon for their cause (without bothering to
tell them or letting them volunteer....) but they feel that this is
the way it ought to be.  feh.  I cheered when they got nuked,
frankly.

But the institute brings up an interesting point, which is why I
think the ending is well set up.  Was Anzha acting of free will, or
was she designed to be what she is to be a weapon against Zatar?
The Institute could well have given her some very deep conditioning
to force her into exactly that situation, and to react exactly as
she did, knowing that it was the most effective weapon against Zatar
and Braxa that could be designed.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 21:24:34 edt
From: dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
To: chuq@Sun.COM, sf-lovers%plaid@Sun.COM
Subject: Re:  In Conquest Born

Yes, science fiction writers that can move on to fresh new projects
are a rare breed indeed.  But in any case, with regard to your point
about the inconclusive nature of the ending - I think that while
it's true that life doesn't always have a nice tidy ending, that's
one of the reasons we tell stories - stories are those bits of life
that are interesting enough to write about.  And while I don't mind
an ending that's inconclusive [many of the best SF books are that
way], I do get upset when I feel that I haven't been told the entire
story.  But in any case it's good to hear that she's writing new
stuff - good new writers like C.S. Friedman are hard to come by, and
it's good to hear she's not planning on stagnating [as if anyone
does!]

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 21:59:35 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, sf-lovers%plaid@Sun.COM
Subject: Re:  In Conquest Born

> But in any case, with regard to your point about the inconclusive
> nature of the ending - I think that while it's true that life
> doesn't always have a nice tidy ending, that's one of the reasons
> we tell stories - stories are those bits of life that are
> interesting enough to write about.  And while I don't mind an
> ending that's inconclusive [many of the best SF books are that
> way], I do get upset when I feel that I haven't been told the
> entire story.

But I think we were told the entire story, or as much story as was
worth telling. Braxa, in that single moment at the end, lost the
war.  It'll take some time, true, but Azea is the victor.  But the
story from here to ultimate victory is boring -- basically space
opera, and in my mind a terrible anti-climax.  Now, a story 1000
years AFTER the last battle.... but that's a whole different
sequel....

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 20:55:11 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com (Perry The Cynic)
Subject: Re: In Conquest Born (some spoilers)

chuq@Sun.COM writes (about the ending):
>>>I was *hoping* for *synthesis*, that they would turn their
>>>`honorable hatred' to constructive ends,
>>
>> I think any ending would have been disappointing in some way.
>> Most of the obvious ones would have come off as just plain
>> stupid, and I think that's something Friedman wanted to avoid.
>> This one comes across, to me, as being incomplete.
>
>It was left as a large grey.  Yes, it is somewhat incomplete, but
>so is real life, last I looked.

Certainly. That doesn't keep this ending from being *disappointing*
to me.  The whole novel has built towards a final confrontation, and
then it wimps out after not even a good try. I still think that
there is a real *break* here, as if this ending has been written as
an afterthought, not really in the flow of the story.

>I find the concept of synthesis fascinating.  How can two people on
>cultures such as Friedman wrote even HOPE to come up with some kind
>of true understanding?  They aren't just enemies, they are
>culturally incompatible -- each was brought up to believe that the
>others were baby eating heathens that were no better than the scum
>of a sceptic tank.  Any thought that a person can fight their way
>through centuries of social conditioning to come to some kind of
>real relationship is unrealistic.  (From their point of view, it
>wouldn't be love, it would be bestiality...)

Hm. You are certainly right that the two cultures are about as
antagonistic as possible (and still be viable). However, both
protagonists are by far not typical members of their societies, and
hardly bound by their conditioning.  In fact, one of the central
motives of the story is how the two develop farther and farther away
from their cultural roots and heritage, driven by circumstance but
mainly their inner nature. Consider the scene after the foiled
assasination plot, when they first touch. Friedman makes it rather
clear that at this point, Anzha's mindset is pretty close to a
Braxana's *honorable hatred*, and she goes further into that
direction until at the end, she is wholly motivated by it.
Conversely, Zatar's relation to his women breaks major rules of his
society, and when towards the end he uses a full-blown telepath for
his purposes and those of the Empire, instead of killing him on the
spot (as his culture would demand), he has practically divorced
himself from his cultural heritage.

Notice how during these parallel developments, they both assimilate
and use ideas of the `other side', in increasing measure. To a
certain degree, their ways actually *converge*. That does not, of
course, mean *acceptance* of or even *tolerance* towards the
physical enemy, but it means a blending of ideas and concepts that
increasingly blurs their `cultural incompatibility'.

When I said *synthesis*, I certainly wasn't thinking along the lines
of `they married and lived happily ever after'. The Braxana notion
of *constructive hatred* may furnish the key. Why have the Braxana
not yet killed each other off? Because they are prepared to keep
their *hatred* in check where it would not benefit them to indulge
in it. They are perfectly able to cooperate with enemies when it is
necessary or beneficial. Towards the end, Anzha has pretty much
adopted this mindset, so why shouldn't they engage in a relation of
*constructive hatred*? After all, they are both in dire straits -
Anzha is completely isolated, without any cultural roots; if at all,
her roots may be in (ancient) Braxana culture! Zatar is the
(restricted) head of a culture that is far into the process of decay
and self-destruction, and for better or worse by then he has picked
up some altruistic traits (though he would certainly deny it). It
isn't even necessary for the two to *understand* each other, as long
as both see chances of *using* each other, potentially benefiting
from each other. And from such a basis, they just can't help but
learn from each other.

To be sure, such a (beginning) synthesis is just one of many
possible endings. For example, a finale where their mental encounter
turns into a fight and they both die would *feel right* to me
(though I wouldn't like it).  My complaint about Friedman's
`solution' is that it isn't one; it builds up tremendous tension and
then just... leaves. Certainly Anzha could conceivably have acted
that way. What she does is pretty much giving up after getting in a
last dig at the enemy. I would think she has more strength and
determination than that. All completely subjective, of course;
perhaps I'm just not subtle enough...

perry@inteloa.intel.com
tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 87 22:00:44 edt
From: dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
To: chuq@Sun.COM
Subject: Re:  In Conquest Born

Well, maybe so.  I suppose that in a sense we were told the entire
story, it just seems like we missed the end since it was given short
shrift.  I don't agree, though, that the Braxins have lost the
battle, but rather that they are going to undergo a period of
transformation [oops, that wasn't a sentence - the second clause is
my idea] with the last remnants of the old leadership dying out.  I
would hate to think that C.S. Friedman wanted us to feel that either
side was going to obliterate the other.  In any case, I'd hate to
see any sequel to this book, even one 1000 years after the events of
the first - despite its weaknesses, I thought it was fantastic, and
I'd hate to see anything ruin that feeling.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 22:30:37 GMT
From: wayne@hpldola.hp.com (Wayne Angevine)
Subject: Re: Comments on reviews of _In Conquest Born_ (Minor
Subject: Spoilers)

I found "In Conquest Born" very interesting and stimulating.  I
don't think I can say I "liked" the ending, but I thought it was
suitable to the rest of the book.

What I found most interesting about the book as a whole was this: It
presented a classic scenario - good guys in white hats, bad guys in
black hats, etc. - except that they weren't really.  I suppose that
on the whole the Braxana were a lot harder to like than the Azeans,
but I found Zatar rather sympathetic and Anzha somewhat less so.  I
couldn't simply put the characters in a box and expect to know what
they were going to do next.  Isn't this a lot like the "real world?"
Yet while doing this, Friedman didn't end up with a "value free" or
depressingly existential work.  There were values, they simply
weren't always adhered to by anybody.

Another point - I felt that she was able to create two
societies, the average representative of either of which
would think the other completely alien, and yet make them
both believable and consistent.  That's something I've not
seen many writers do successfully.

Wayne Angevine
...hpldola!wayne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 20:35:10 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Sign of Chaos

The latest Publisher's Weekly has the announcement on the new
Zelazny book.  Sign of Chaos, the third in the second trilogy of
Amber, will be published by Arbor House in hardback in October.

Also, Locus announced that Zelazny has signed for two more Amber
books, bringing the size of the second Amber trilogy to a total of
five books (which matches the size of the first trilogy, for that
matter).

So don't expect this book to finalize everything....

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 14:12:33 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!hwee!sutherla@RUTGERS.EDU (I. Sutherland)
Subject: Need 'Amber' sequel info

     I've read Roger Zelazny's first Amber quintilogy and enjoyed it.
About a year ago I bought 'Trumps of Doom' featuring the story of
Corwin's son, which very obviously must have a sequel, but I have
never seen it. I think I have seen mention of what is probably the
sequel on the net news, so could somebody please tell me what the
book is called and who publishes it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jun 87 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #274
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 87 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #274
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 274

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Heinlein (6 msgs) &
                            Spider Robinson (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 16:33:54 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)

SIASL = "Stranger in a Strange Land"
> k@eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold)
> WHY I HATE HEINLEIN (IN GENERAL):
>   [...] I detest *everything* I've read by him [...]
> 1.  Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the
> plot drives what little character development there is
> 2.  *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing".
> 3.  Heinlein just plain doesn't write well.

Well, I agree with these points (excepting the third, which is
simply a statement of opinion, and my opinion differs).  Taking
"plot" as being more or less "what happens", my own opinion is that
Heinlein tells interesting stories about wooden, rigid characters,
and that his female characters are notably less lifelike than his
male characters.  But this is true of many, many writers, and
Heinlein is not horribly worse than other examples of this.  In
other words, I can't see these three holding up as reasons for
"hate" or "detestation".

> REGARDING SIASL & HOMOPHOBIA IN PARTICULAR:
> 1.  The quote comes from Jill (a character), not from Heinlein.
> Actually, I don't give a *&#@$% what Heinlein *thinks*, the
> question is, "what does he *write*?", particularly in SIASL (so,
> bringing up other works is a bit irrelevant as to what makes SIASL
> offensive).

But-but-but... this was not bringing up other works, this was
pointing out that things that Jill says cannot be taken as
unambiguously indicative of the message that the book actually
delivers.  In particular, I pointed out that I personally found that
the book as a whole discredited the (rather mild, in my opinion)
homophobic statement that Jill made.  What *Jill* says is not
necessarily what the *book* says.  And, in fact, I think this is the
case in SIASL.

> 2.  The quote comes from Jill, not from Mike or Jubal (ostensibly
> the philosophical "mouthpieces" of the work).  This explanation I
> might buy, except for the fact that Mike goes along with her [...]

Mike also, at the climactic scene of the book, went back to his
androgynous appearance, and (if I'm remembering correctly) said "I
love you" to one of his male attackers.  My point being that in this
scene and a few others Mike *after* he matures throws off many rote
social restrictions imposed on him before he had matured.  The
message again is clear (at least, it was to me).  Mike did NOT
swallow Jill's advice whole.

>  We also never see Mike actually in a homosexual relationship, or
> even in a homosexual encounter in a group sex situation.

Well, I agree that the book is certainly not strongly pro-homosex.
In fact, it only deals with the issue in passing in a handful of
scenes.  But this is not at all the same as finding the book
homophobic.  *That* I don't see any real justification for.

Further, since sex scenes are all "off-screen" in SIASL, there is no
direct evidence that Mike did not engage in homosexual activity, and
some indirect evidence that he did.  Certainly, he engaged in group
sex, and it is fairly certain that he kissed and caressed male
characters "on-screen".

> 3.  Mike does not understand the prevailing cultural reaction to
> homosexuality and Jill is concerned that she was failing in her
> attempt to socialize Mike [...]  This makes a bit more sense, but
> I can't buy it for the same reasons as listed immediately above.

As near as I can tell, this is saying that in order for SIASL to be
considered non-homophobic, Mike would have had to have engaged in
homosexual activity "on-screen".  Again, I find this position a bit
extreme at best.

> 4.  Setting up a character with one opinion and having that
> character's ideas shot down is an effective way [to demonstrate
> disagreement with that opinion].  The problem with this is that
> Jill's homophobia is never effectively "shot down" by Mike.

Not directly, true.  But again, later events *do* contradict Jill's
position.  So while there is no direct confrontation between Jill
and Mike on this issue, the claim that

>  This argument falls flat on its face.

is, again, a bit extreme.

> The most charitable thing I can say about Heinlein is to quote
> someone (quoting someone else about Heinlein & sexism), "the poor
> man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint."

And yet again, I agree with this.  But it seems to me that "hate"
and "detestation" are inappropriate reactions to someone who
"doesn't have a hint".  "Pity" or "regret" seem more appropriate.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 22:03:29 GMT
From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

> dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith)
> [...] we meet Sky Marshal Samuel Beaux, who is described as being
> "as beautiful as a black panther."  I'll take this to mean that he
> is black, not white.

Why?  Did you take it to mean that this person was a feline also?
Not that I necessarily disagree with the proposition that Ames is
black.  But the above certainly isn't unambiguous evidence of
anything much.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 13:47:19 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Cat Cover Art

In "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls"

I assumed that

a)  Ames was black

b) The cover showed him white because it was thought that showing
him black might cost sales.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 20:01:40 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

ccs006@ucdavis.UUCP (Eric Carpenter) writes:
>> Ok, Heinlein fans and bashers, here's an interesting tidbit for
>> you:
>>
>> On the cover of The Cat Who Walks Through Walls is a couple we
>> presume to be Hazel Stone and Richard Ames.  Problem - Richard
>> Ames is explicitly stated to be *black* in the novel and the man
>> on the cover is white.

Given the racism of our society, it is a lot easier to end up black
than white.  By this I mean that the child of a white father and a
black mother would be considered black, and the child of that child
and a white would still be considered black even though obviously
(at least) three quarters white.  Unfortunately black has been
considered a contaminant, and any person with enough black ancestry
to show at all was considered black.

The book specifically states that Lazarus Long was Richard Ames
biological father.  Lazarus, with red hair, was probably a very pale
white (your typical saxon phenotype, and probably genotype).  Ames'
mother was black --but how black?  Certainly socially black, but
quite possibly genotypically three quarters white.  So, it is not at
all unlikely that the fellow on the cover with the medium dark skin
and largely caucasian features was meant to be a good depiction of
Richard Ames, who, growing up in his mother's family, would be
reguarded by others and by himself as 'socially' a black.  Is
anybody else on the net old enough to remember Adam Clayton Powell,
who was socially and politically (built a career on it) a black man,
but looked white to me?

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 09:19:00 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)

throopw@dg_rtp.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>> 1.  Characterizations (irregardless of gender) are wooden, and the
>> plot drives what little character development there is
>> 2.  *Most* female characters are there as "window dressing".
>> 3.  Heinlein just plain doesn't write well.
>
> Well, I agree with these points (excepting the third, which is
> simply a statement of opinion, and my opinion differs).  Taking
> "plot" as being more or less "what happens", my own opinion is
> that Heinlein tells interesting stories about wooden, rigid
> characters, and that his female characters are notably less
> lifelike than his male characters.  But this is true of many, many
> writers, and Heinlein is not horribly worse than other examples of
> this.  In other words, I can't see these three holding up as
> reasons for "hate" or "detestation".

Actually, I'm not sure how well this wooden character stuff holds up
either.  Characters vary, depending on their importance and purpose
in the story.  Some are wooden, some very human.  Compare John Lyle
in "If This Goes On" to Lazarus ("Hey Bud") Long in "Methuselah's
Childred" to LL in "Time Enough for Love".

>> The most charitable thing I can say about Heinlein is to quote
>> someone (quoting someone else about Heinlein & sexism), "the poor
>> man tries, but he just doesn't have a hint."
>
> And yet again, I agree with this.  But it seems to me that "hate"
> and "detestation" are inappropriate reactions to someone who
> "doesn't have a hint".  "Pity" or "regret" seem more appropriate.

Regret, yes, if appropriate.  I think the real problem that many
people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include
the reader on the side of the "good guys".  While mapping out his
own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the
readers beliefs or cherished institutions.  He makes it plain that
you have to strive to become one of his chosen, not just be there or
agree with him.

Some people can enjoy this thing - others get offended and close the
book.

Of course, nobody's perfect many of the people that lap up Heinlein
hate Bradbury of the anti-scientific leanings in his Martian
Chronicles or Vonnegut's cycnicsm.

The main point is not to confuse "I don't like" with "It's no good"
with "It has no value" with "It's painful to discuss" et.al.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 09:29:32 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Cat Cover Art

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
> In "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls"
> I assumed that
> a)  Ames was black
> b) The cover showed him white because it was thought that showing
>    him black might cost sales.

I'd assume that it's the usual stupidity associated with cover
art/blurbs, rather than any racial/economic motives.  On good days,
cover art is done from a plot summary or verbal description of what
the cover should portray.  Heinlein often assigns race to a
character, but it's just not a major part of the plot and was
probably overlooked.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 05:13:29 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Book request...

nat%drao.nrc.cdn@UBC.CSNET:
>Nebula award winners...And while I am at it, What is Spider
>Robinson's SF like? I have seen his books, but never read anything
>by him, except,

Spider Robinson is rather like a non-senile Heinlein.  Which means
that if you hate Heinlein, you probably won't like Robinson.  The
exception is the Callahan's series (CALLAHAN'S CROSS-TIME SALOON,
TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH, and CALLAHAN'S SECRET); funny, punny
(you have been warned!), and decidedly different.  (Warning: The
last story of CALLAHAN'S SECRET ("The Mick of Time") is widely held
to be contradictory to the rest of the series; I happen to disagree,
but you must as always come to your own conclusions.)

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 16:49:20 GMT
From: quirk@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Book request...

nat%drao.nrc.cdn@UBC.CSNET writes:
>And while I am at it, What is Spider Robinson's SF like? I have
>seen his books, but never read anything by him, except, I think, 1
>short story (or an excerpt) but that was too long ago to remember.
>( This is just for my own personal interest, not for any
>compilation..)  Many thanks.

Spider Robinson's _Callahan's_ stories are some of the best 'soft'
SF--My definition--stories written.  I highly reccommend them
(Unless you HATE puns).  I haven't read much of his other stuff, so
I won't make any further comment.

T. Kogoma
quirk@europa.unm.edu
{gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 07:27:35 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>> Nebula award winners...And while I am at it, What is Spider
>> Robinson's SF like? I have seen his books, but never read
>> anything by him, except,
>
>Spider Robinson is rather like a non-senile Heinlein.  Which means
>that if you hate Heinlein, you probably won't like Robinson.  The
>exception is the Callahan's series (CALLAHAN'S CROSS-TIME SALOON,
>TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH, and CALLAHAN'S SECRET); funny, punny
>(you have been warned!), and decidedly different.  (Warning: The
>last story of CALLAHAN'S SECRET ("The Mick of Time") is widely held
>to be contradictory to the rest of the series; I happen to
>disagree, but you must as always come to your own conclusions.)

I don't know anybody who likes Spider Robinson who doesn't also like
Heinlein, but the reverse is not true.  My largest problem with
Spider Robinson is that those characters which live in a world not
too far removed from us in time seem to live in a society that I am
totally unaware of.  I find it extremely jarring.  On the other
hand, the Callahan's Bar Series is a great deal of fun, as are many
of the shorts in *Melancholy Elephants*.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 14:26:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Spider Robinson

In SF Digest Vol 12: Issue 270 Natalie Prowse asked on 2 Jun about
Spider Robinson.

I have enjoyed what I have read by him.  I don't find it easy to
describe what someone's writing is "like". The material I like the
most by him is what I first read by him - the Callahan's Crosstime
Saloon (or similar title) stories.  I believe there are three
collections or so of him that have these stories.  They range from
just purely humorous to very moving and involving stories.  I also
read his book Mindkiller and an earlier book by him the title of
which I cannot remember.  Mindkiller was a very enjoyable
experience.  To tell the truth, to tell too much about Mindkiller
would spoil some of the surprises that he pulls on you.  I think the
first stories that I read by him were first published in OMNI.  The
first one was "Fivesight" (or something similar) and was a very
moving Callahan's story.  I had not heard of Spider at the time I
read that and his name did not stick in my mind, but the story did.
It was only later when I heard of Callahan's that I realized that
"Fivesight" sounded like it might be a Callahan story and I was
determined to find out and read those stories. The other story was
"God Is an Iron" which I believe is the second chapter of
Mindkiller.  This is a very powerful story. Spider does like
wordplay.  I believe he and his wife collaborated on another book
called Stardancing or something like that.  That was also enjoyable,
though I prefered Mindkiller.

By the way he is going to be the GoH at Balticon next Easter.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jun 87 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #275
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 87 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #275
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 275

Today's Topics:

              Books - Pournelle & Stasheff (7 msgs) &
                      Tiptree & Tolkien & White (3 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - SF-Lovers T-shirt

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 09:03:36 GMT
From: kevinb@crash.cts.com (Kevin Belles)
Subject: Re: Janissaries III

Storms of Victory, Janissaries III, is shown on the cover, spine,
and jacket blurb as being by Jerry Pournelle. The book is actually
co-written by Roland Green (the co-author of Clan_and_Crown), and
shows both men's styles. A hint: while a good book, this is not the
end of the series and judging by the amount of character
developement in the book, there looks to be at least two more to go.
A good read, but not quite as good overall as the preceding books,
with (in my humble opinion) a muddied plot structure. With luck,
though, the *next* one should be a doozie.

In light of the recent Heinlein cover blooper, the merc is shown
with a M-16, not a H&K, and the Roman, while wearing a cape, has a
common legionaire's helm with cheekpads and *two* shortswords. Weird
scabbard positions, too.
  Anybody know anyone besides Alan Gutierrez, Don Maitz, and Darrell
K. Sweet who actually seem to take the time to research a cover?
Darrell, especially, seems to at least read the book through before
painting a cover.

Kevin J. Belles
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!kevinb
ARPA: crash!kevinb@{nosc, ucsd}
INET: kevinb@crash.CTS.COM
BIX:  kevinb

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 05:38:22 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!jiml@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Laycock)
Subject: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series"

I recently purchased Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock series" on a
whim.  What I'd like to know is the order in which they might best
be read.  _The Warlock in Spite of Himself_ was the first written
(1969), but it now appears to be the 2nd in the series.  The
"prequel", _Escape Velocity_ is at the front of the list of 7 books.
Should I read first "the very beginning of the story of Gramarye"
(EV) or the book that was originally intended to launch the series?

Thanks,

Jim Laycock
Philosophy grad
University of Alberta
decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!alberta!cavell!jiml
alberta!Jim_Laycock@UQV-MTS

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 17:42:06 GMT
From: quirk@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series"

jiml@cavell.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes:
>I recently purchased Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock series" on a
>whim.  What I'd like to know is the order in which they might best
>be read.  _The Warlock in Spite of Himself_ was the first written
>(1969), but it now appears to be the 2nd in the series.  The
>"prequel", _Escape Velocity_ is at the front of the list of 7
>books.  Should I read first "the very beginning of the story of
>Gramarye" (EV) or the book that was originally intended to launch
>the series?

No problem.  I've lent my copies out to friends and provided the
following sequence:

The Warlock In Spite Of Himself
King Kobold (Revived)
The Warlock Unlocked  or  Escape Velocity
      (Order doesn't really matter)
The Warlock Enraged
The Warlock Wandering
      (Best book of the series--My opinion)
The Warlock Is Missing

Note: The last two books take place at the same time.  However,
_Wandering_ seems to fit in as the earlier one.

(Minor Spoillers)

What do you all think of Gwen's new-found power (Able to generate a
force field from sheer force of will--WHEW!!)?  What do you think of
the Kids?  Seems to me that Rod and Fess are getting out-gunned by
their own family.

BTW, does anybody have the *original* King Kobold?  What did you
think?  Is the 'new' version beter?

Long lives, etc.

T. Kogoma
quirk@europa.unm.edu
{gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 16:20:15 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Re: robot names for computer

From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
>I didn't see any mention to the robot "brain" that successively
>runs the subject's spacecraft and his mechanical horse in the
>_Warlock_ In_Spite_Of_Himself_ series by Christofer Stasheff.  He
>called it "FESS" which i believe was an acronym.  Of course, maybe
>you don't want to name a computer after a neurotic robot which
>tripped its circuit breaker every time it got a problem that was
>really tough to handle.

    The robot ("Fess") in _Warlock_In_Spite_Of_Himself_ derives his
name from an attempt to phonetically reproduce the acronym for that
type of robot as a name.  That kind of robot is referred to as an
FCC or "Faithful Cybernetic Companion".

Mark F. Cook
USMail: Software Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 07:37:07 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: robot names for computer

markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM (Mark F. Cook) writes:
>    The robot ("Fess") in _Warlock_In_Spite_Of_Himself_ derives his
>name from an attempt to phonetically reproduce the acronym for that
>type of robot as a name.  That kind of robot is referred to as an
>FCC or "Faithful Cybernetic Companion".

Having had the job of assuring that certain equipment pass FCC
regulations before we were allowed to ship it, I can guarantee that
``Fess'' is NOT how a lot of people, including me, pronounce FCC.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 04:20:40 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series"

jiml@cavell.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes:
>I recently purchased Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock series" on a
>whim.  What I'd like to know is the order in which they might best
>be read.

I read the books in the order in which they were published, and I
feel they work very well that way.  I think that if you read Escape
Velocity first, you will lose some of the irony that turns up at the
end of the book.

Another reason to read them in publishing order is that I found that
(in my opinion, at least) that the quality of the stories went
downhill from the first.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 16:33:28 GMT
From: towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers)
Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series"

jiml@cavell.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes:
>_The Warlock in Spite of Himself_ was the first written (1969), but
>it now appears to be the 2nd in the series.  The "prequel", _Escape
>Velocity_ is at the front of the list of 7 books.  Should I read
>first "the very beginning of the story of Gramarye" (EV) or the
>book that was originally intended to launch the series?

There are a few mild spoilers in _Escape Velocity_, but I don't
really think this would ruin your enjoyment.  I think I only noticed
them because I read the first three books before _Escape Velocity_
had come out.  However, what may *really* confuse you is if you have
_King Kobold Revised_ as opposed to _King Kobold_.  The only
similarity between the two is the basic plot outline, and the next
book in the series _The Warlock Unlocked_ follows on from the
original, i.e. it has references to events that did not happen in
exactly the way described.

Hope this helps.

Tony Towers
Department of Computer Science
Reading University.
JANET : towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 17:58:04 GMT
From: brengle@hpcltjb.hp.com (Tim Brengle)
Subject: Re: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series"

>BTW, does anybody have the *original* King Kobold?  What did you
>think?  Is the 'new' version beter [sic]?

I bought a British paperback some years ago.  I remember reading it
and thinking that I understood that he needed to rewrite it.
Hmmm...  Now that I have both versions, it might be instructive to
read them both again for comparison.

Tim Brengle
...!hplabs!brengle
brengle@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 87 17:50:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Tiptree suicide not surprising

brothers@who.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) writes:
>-- just read today in the Times -- James Tiptree Jr. (Alice
>Sheldon[?])  killed her husband and herself...  Just kinda blew me
>away -- from her work, I wouldn't expect anything like that at all,
>under any circumstances.

Tiptree/Sheldon is one of my favorite writers, and I was very
unhappy to learn that she killed herself, but I can't say I'm
surprised. She is very candid about her pessimistic world view in
interviews; she feels that the earth is overpopulated, and people
are generally too screwed up to handle their problems, and the
future looks bleak. And this is from a mature, experienced,
intelligent woman who is living a quiet life with her husband.

If you are familiar with Tiptree's (earlier) work, I doubt if you'd
be surprised either. As a whole, it's one of the darkest oeuvres in
what is normally classified as science fiction. In story after
story, Tiptree tells of human failings and bigotry, the futility of
any kind of solution to global problems, and the pain of human (or
quasi-human) relationships.

For example, "The Women that Men don't See" is the ultimate Feminist
separatist fantasy: women are so sick of their mistreatment by men
that they would risk running off with mysterious aliens. Similar
themes are developed within the framework of space opera in the
classic "Houston Houston do you read?" "The Girl who was Plugged In"
is a cold and negative examination of the modern obsession with
physical appearance. The black humor of "The Night-blooming Sauran"
hides similar themes and feminist concerns. "The Screwfly Solution"
postulates an almost mundane, and hence all the more terrifying, way
to end the world. "A Momentary Taste of Being" laughs at the
insignificance of human achievement and human problems; it plays
with the same imagery as Vonnegut's "The Big Space F*ck" but with
much more finesse.

I, too, am very sad to see Tiptree leave us. But I didn't find it
unexpected.

Bill Hsu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 14:25:59 GMT
From: fla7@sphinx.uchicago.edu (William Flachsbart)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

holly@dartvax.UUCP (Ian Cabell) writes:
>I, too, read The Hobbit and the LotR, but, unlike many, it seems, I
>found them very difficult to read.  I fell into the pattern of
>reading several pages and then putting the book down for a month.
>Perhaps I was too young, or perhaps I just found discovering a
>civilization too much and would have preferrred just reading a
>story.  Did anyone else feel that way?

Yes! Only I _still_ find the Lord of the Rings impossible going. It
must be me, since everyone else and their brother seems to love
these monstrosities.  I am not sure why I find them so difficult to
read, but they seem to be so darned booooring. I read through the
first one (The Fellowship of the Ring) and began the second one and
just couldn't make it anymore. I have tried to finish these several
times, but just couldn't manage to wade through them.

I thought the Silmarillion was a much better book, but that may have
been because I read it immediately after finishing both volumes of
the Gulag Archipelago, after which a chemistry textbook would have
been interesting.

William Flachsbart
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 21:49:13 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Deadly litter?

On the other hand, THE DREAM MILLENNIUM by James White is quite
clever, his SECTOR GENERAL books are good SF mysteries in the
Asimovian tradition, and his short story TABLEAU is, I think, the
most moving piece of short science fiction ever written.  THE WATCH
BELOW isn't intended as a manual for survivalists.  Rather, it's an
attempt to portray, quite effectively I think, societal development
in microcosm.  As for chance encounters with extraterrestrials in
open space, I say all bets are off about probability as soon as you
allow a faster-than- light drive, anyway.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
Member, SFWA
C/O
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 23:36:23 GMT
From: matoh@prefix.liu.se (peter fritz)
Subject: Re: Deadly litter?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would not most interplanetary space
flight stay within the same "disc" as the planets reside in? Perhaps
even in great "convoys" as the planets are near each other, to get
the best payload/fuel ratio? (Unless we invent non-newtonian
propulsion, of course. :-) )
   If that's the case, it's not hard to see that littering would be
concentrated to volumes of heavy intraplanetary space flight. But
then, of course, the rings of the great planets are quite
"littered", and, as we have seen, don't seem to be that dangerous to
fly through...

Mats Ohrman
matoh@majestix.liu.se

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 17:12:39 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Deadly litter?

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but would not most interplanetary space
> flight stay within the same "disc" as the planets reside in?
> Perhaps even in great "convoys" as the planets are near each
> other, to get the best payload/fuel ratio? (Unless we invent
> non-newtonian propulsion, of course. :-) )
>    If that's the case, it's not hard to see that littering would
> be concentrated to volumes of heavy intraplanetary space flight.
> But then, of course, the rings of the great planets are quite
> "littered", and, as we have seen, don't seem to be that dangerous
> to fly through...

Well, you COULD waste reaction mass by boosting out of the ecliptic,
but why?

White's characters, in disscussing the problem, mention that most
collisions were just little bits of crud that didn't matter, but
every once in a while, the stuff would contain ice or metal, and
thereby have enough mass to do some damage to a ship when it hit.

The major catastrophe involved lead shielding blocks, which are
pretty darn dense, and would tend to posses a fair amount of energy,
realeased in any collision.

The trash was also mentioned as travelling in "swarms", much as
meteors do, in the plane of the ecliptic (usually), and in orbits
that intersected major flight routes of ships moving insystem.

The space involved is thus more of a thick disc than a sphere, and
if you get ENOUGH trash in it, of the right type, it will cause
problems.  It's like driving along throwing caltrops out of your car
on an autobahn that is 30 lanes wide- usually, they will be missed,
but one hit, and a vehicles is wrecked- so why toss the stuff out?

As far as the rings, we just didn't encounter any large chunks- just
dust.  I imagine the probe(s) are a bit battered now- that showroom
shine is gone 8-)

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 13-May-1987 1529
From: roberts%utrtsc.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Utrecht, Netherlands)
Subject: SF-Lovers T-shirt

Some months ago, I read in SFL that someone was making SFL T-shirts
available. I recently asked Saul if he knew if any were still
available and he said he thought they were all gone.

I would like to know, if anyone can help,

Who arranged the T-Shirts?  Are there (by some unlikely chance) any
available anywhere?  Would there be any interest amongst European
readers to have some new ones made?

Nigel Roberts

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jun 87 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #276
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 87 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #276
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 276

Today's Topics:

             Books - Title Request & A Request Answer &
                     The Quiet Earth & Best Fantasy (3 msgs) &
                     Codex Seraphinianus & Upcoming Books (4 msgs) &
                     Fictional Computers (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 15:08:53 GMT
From: jo13#@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffery Thomas Oesterle)
Subject: Author,Title???

Does anybody know the title and/or author of this book:

Its main character is of a race of 'people' in the far future who
have evolved into wolf-like humanoids.  Its a fairly primitive
culture, and also fairly violent.  The main character has a small
(2' tall) friend who is silver and (I think) is called Sheen.  He is
evil, and tries to get the main character to do evil deeds.  I don't
remember much more about the book.  I read it a few years ago and
would love to put my hands on it again.  Any help is appreciated.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 23:23:53 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Book Author/Title Request

>These people have a mind control capability and frequently indulge
>in mental combat among themselves for control of others. They are
>ranked in society by the number of people they control with 80
>being the highest permitted.

The Mind Traders, by J. Hunter Holly.

Dani Zweig

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 87 21:29:00 GMT
From: render@b.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: The Quiet Earth

I recently saw the movie "The Quiet Earth" on cable and thought it
was pretty good.  I'm interested in reading the book/story it was
based on.  I *think* that the author's name is something like "Craig
Harrison" but I didn't get a chance to look at the credits closely.
I couldn't find anything with the given title in Books in Print, so
I am stuck for places to look.  Does anyone know if it is in print,
and where I might find it? Thanks.

Hal Render
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
ARPA:  render@b.cs.uiuc.edu
CSNET: render@uiuc.csnet
USENET:{seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 02:10:14 GMT
From: katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky)
Subject: Re: Book request...

From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
> I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST*
> fantasy stories to read.

These books are sometimes hard to find, but the few people I have
met who have heard of them, rave about them as much as I.  They
represent very different styles of fantasy writing.

1) _The_Worm_Ouroborus_ (sp?) by E.R. Eddison. Filled with the moral
and social values that made social Darwinism the hit it is today,
and a shining example of creating a realistic image of a world.
Epic quest, classical references, heroic ideals, and a vocabulary
that only an Englishman would possess.  If you hate dictionaries,
you will probably detest his Zimiamvian trilogy:
_Mistress_of_Mistresses_, _A_Fish Dinner_in_Memison_, and
_The_Mezentian_Gate_.  Very similar in style, but much more heavily
involved with thought, philosophy, and fantasy than a heroic ballad.
These are all out of print, but lots of copies are floating around
wherever quality used books are cherished.

2) _Dragonworld_ by Byron Preiss and another author who name eludes
my memory at the moment. What I most recall of this book are the
hundreds of beautiful Joseph Zucker illustrations!  These
illustrations turned a wonderful and potentially harmless story into
a feast.  If anyone knows of any other works by Zucker, PLEASE send
me references in the mail.

3) _The_Princess_Bride_ by William Goldman.  One of the greatest
comedy pieces ever set on a swashbuckling stage!  It is also the
best book to read out loud to a group.  You will never forgive
yourself if you miss the sword fight above the Cliffs of Insanity.
If you don't find it under Goldman, try S. Morgenstern, the real
author.  Goldman was merely a conscientious editor :)

4) There are plenty of Knights of the Round Table stories.  Aside
from the classical versions and _The_Mists_of_Avalon_ (a must read
for serious students of the genre), I came across a book called
_Parsival_ by Richard Monaco.  It is an intense character study of a
innocent boy thrown into an unglamourized version of 5th century
feudal England.  Beautifully done.

If you come across anything rare or out of print, I'd love to hear
about it.

Kat

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 16:49:20 GMT
From: quirk@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Book request...

From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
>I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST*
>fantasy stories to read...

Some offbeat Fantasy that I've enjoyed:

The Dragon and the George     (Gordon R. Dickson, I think)
Her Majesty's Wizzard         Christofer Stasheff.

Both books deal with the adventures of a 'normal' human (From the
'real' universe, whatever that may be) who find themselves
catapulted into fantasy worlds.

T. Kogoma
quirk@europa.unm.edu
{gatech:ucbvax:unm-la}!hc!hi!unmvax!quirk@europa

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 05:13:29 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Book request...

nat%drao.nrc.cdn@UBC.CSNET writes:
>I am interested in a list of what people would deem the *BEST*
>fantasy stories to read. As an example, I have read The Lord of the
>Rings and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, some
>years ago, and I thought they were great. More recently, I read
>'The Sword of Shannara', (a gift) the first book only, and I
>thought it STUNK!.  Is there anything

Don't give up on Terry Brooks yet.  I have a habit of not consigning
authors to the trash bin because of earlier works, so after reading
(and hating) the Shannara series, I read MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE:
SOLD!.  ***IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!*** And it is NOTHING like LORD OF THE
RINGS.

Brandon S. Allbery
Tridelta Industries
7350 Corporate Blvd.
Mentor, OH 44060
+01 216 255 1080
{decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed 3 Jun 87 15:02:36-PDT
From: Aline Norris <NORRIS@stripe.sri.com>
Subject: Codex Seraphinianus Reviews

According to an online book review database, the CS was reviewed in
several places, although I cannot vouch for the quality of the
reviews.

1) Esquire Magazine, V 102 p260, Nov. 1984
2) NYT Book Review, V 89 p20, Feb. 12, 1984 (I think this was
   already mentioned as being a short blurb, not a real review.)
3) Los Angeles Times Book Review, p4, Dec. 18, 1983
4) Choice, V21 p696, Jan. 1984
5) Atlantic Monthly, V 253 p105, Feb. 1984
6) Publishers Weekly, V224 p62, Oct. 28, 1983.

 Hope this helps!

Aline Baeck
SRI, Int'l
NORRIS@STRIPE.SRI.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 20:42:44 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Other future books

Other things from Publisher's weekly:

Legacy of Heriot (Niven, Pournelle and Barnes) ships July 1 from
Simon & Schuster in hardback.

To Sail Beyond the Sunset: The Life and Loves of Maureen Johnson by
Robert A. Heinlein ships July 7 from Ace/Putnam in hardback [and PW
pans it royally, but that isn't unusual for SF). July 7 is
Heinlein's 80th birthday.  The story is the (raunchy) memoirs of
Lazarus Long's mother.

Wyrms by Orson Scott Card ships July 22 from Arbor House in
hardback.  No, it isn't the sequel to Ender's Game.  This is a
Fantasy.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 87 20:39:18 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Bantam fall line

Here is the list of books being published by Bantam this fall:

HardbackK

Chernobyl: A Novel by Frederik Pohl
The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted by Harry Harrison
The Universe, an anthology edited by Byron Preiss
Great Sky River by Greg Benford

Paperbacks:

Blood of the Tiger by Rose Estes
Wildcards III: Jokers Wild edited by George R. R. Martin
After long Silence by Sheri S. Tepper
The Shore of Women by Pamela Sargent
Dover Beach by Richard Bowker
Winter in Eden by Harry Harrison
The Uplift War by David Brin

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 19:58:41 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: Bantam fall line

From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
>> Here is the list of books being published by Bantam this fall:
>> Paperbacks:
>> Blood of the Tiger by Rose Estes
>> Wildcards III: Jokers Wild edited by George R. R. Martin
>> After long Silence by Sheri S. Tepper
>> The Shore of Women by Pamela Sargent
>> Dover Beach by Richard Bowker
>> Winter in Eden by Harry Harrison
>> The Uplift War by David Brin

What!?  Where's DOC SAVAGE OMNIBUS #4?  I just picked up #3 the
other day, and it claims an October '87 release for #4.  Is it (I
hope) actually in Bantam's *summer* releases?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 06:50:43 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!jiml@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Laycock)
Subject: Upcoming books

Does anyone know when the following books will be made available in
soft cover?

   1.  Piers Anthony's _Wielding a Red Sword_ (4th in the
       Incarnations of Immortality series)

   2.  Isaac Asimov's _Foundation and Earth_ (5th in the Foundation
       series)

   3.  Roger Zelazny's _Blood of Amber_ (?) (2nd in the 2nd
       Chronicles of Amber series)

I've seen the first two in hard cover (both almost a year ago), but
it would seem that Zelazny has other projects in mind and has put
off continuing his fabulous series.

Was anyone else as disappointed in _Trumps of Doom_ as I?  It looked
as if he had written it in the space of one afternoon; not much
substance there.  I hope he does better in the remainder of the
series.

Has Anthony started writing the 5th novel in the I of I series?
What will it be called?  Let's see, he's covered Death, Chronos,
Fate, and Mars so far.  Who's left?  Nature?  What about God and
Satan?  Does he have books planned for these folks as well?  What
about the lesser minions?

Jim Laycock
Philosophy grad
University of Alberta
alberta!Jim_Laycock@UQV-MTS
decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!alberta!cavell!jiml

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1987 15:10 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Fictional Computers
Cc: <PAAAAA7> (Rich McGee), <PPOUNDS> (Mike Pounds),

Currently I have:
The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle
The Man Responsible by Stephen Robinett
Cybernia by Lou Cameron
The HeeChee Series by poul Anderson(?)
The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein

non-SF??

The Human Factor by Simon Quinn - based on a film- an eye for an eye
   plot
The Billion Dollar Brain by Len Deighton (Spies)
Elementary Pascal/Basic by Henry Ledgard and Andrew Singer (S.
   Holmes as a progr
From Baker St to Binary by Ledgard, McQuaid and Singer (as above)

Do you know of any others? What do you think of them.

Thanx in advance. I will summarise replies and distribute them.

Dick Botting
Comp Sci
Cal State
5500 State University Pkwy
San Bernardino, CA 92407
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.EDU
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 19:43:43 GMT
From: rochester!ur-cvsvax!marcus@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Levin)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

 From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional
> and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. This for a
> reading list for a class I teach (Computers and Society).
> Currently I have:

This might not be realistic, but then again its SF it may be
eventually,  but;

"I have no mouth, and I must scream" -- a short story but excellent.
All other stories of similiar theme pale.

There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to
live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it
did.  I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author.

On the subject however, are the novels by Jack Vance (I think) TITAN
about the computer controlled world of GAIA.  I cannot remember the
other names

marcus @ ur-cvsvax

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 15:39:16 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional
>and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. This for a
>reading list for a class I teach (Computers and Society).
>
>Do you know of any others? What do you think of them.

How about HAL-9000 and his earthbound counterpart SAL?  Perfect
example.  My Dad's office even has a computer named HAL (and it *is*
an IBM mainframe)!

Others (though not as "realistic"): The computer in _The Integral
Trees_ (can't remember its name); Multivac, in Asimov's _Winds of
Change_.

Also, any robot you care to think of (that thinks like a robot).

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 21:37:01 GMT
From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional
> and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them.

_When Harley Was One_ by David Gerrold (Computer achieves
consciousness) Many of James P. Hogan's books are computer-oriented
or feature computers.  (I seem to remember an author bio stating
that Hogan used to sell computers for DEC.)  Heinlein's Lazarus Long
stories frequently use conscious computers.  (Time Enough for Love,
Number of the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls) Possibly John
Brunner's _Stand on Zanzibar_? Don't remember.

Actually, it's difficult to think of any recent hard SF that doesn't
at least pay lip service to the impact of computers on society.

Dave Mack
McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc.
8201 Greensboro Drive
McLean, VA 22102
(703)883-3911
...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 03:34:47 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!todd@RUTGERS.EDU (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes:
>There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to
>live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it
>did.  I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author.

I'm not sure of the title, but a story along those lines is in the
Zelazny collection _The Last Defender of Camelot_, either that or
Spinrad's _No Direction Home_ (Hard to tell, I just lent both books
to a friend).

Todd Ellner
tektronix!reed!todd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jun 87 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #277
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 87 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #277
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 277

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams & Asimov (2 msgs) & Bester &
                     Chandler & Eddings (2 msgs) & Foster &
                     McCrumb & Piserchia (2 msgs) &
                     Wheatley & Book Banning (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Jun 87 09:16:22-PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <HSHIFFMAN@TEKNOWLEDGE.ARPA>
Subject: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Douglas Adams has gone certifiably Macintosh happy.  His latest book
was written on a Mac, includes a picture of the author done on a
Mac, and Macs figure prominently in the story.  (At least so far.
I'm only up to page 62.)

What's it about?  Well, if you believe the dust jacket, "Dirk
Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is a ghost-horror-detective-time
travel-romantic comedy epic.  Dirk Gently is a private detective who
is more interested in telekinesis, quantum mechanics and lunch than
fiddling around with fingerprint powder, so his investigations tend
to produce startling and unexpected results.  A simple search for a
missing cat uncovers a bewildered ghost, a secret time-traveler, and
the devastating secret that lies behind the whole human history and
threatens to bring it to a premature end.  Sadly, the cat dies."

*** Possible Spoiler Ahead ***

Granting that it's unwise to review a book after reading the first
25%, let me say that none of the events described above have yet
taken place.  In fact, so far the title character has yet to appear
on-screen.  On the other hand, what HAS happened is somewhat
interesting if rather more convoluted than my experience with The
Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy might have led me to expect.  BTW,
I have a feeling that the "devestating secret" might just have been
telegraphed within the first few pages.

*** End Spoiler ***

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 17:48:31 GMT
From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (pete clark)
Subject: Re: Robots, robots and yet more robots and Asimov's
Subject: Mega-ology

to the three people who responded to my erroneous Asimov posting:

1)thanks for the info on End of Eternity and Rest of the
  Robots...I'll have to pick them up

2)I own,but have not read Lucky Starr...I am reading his two ..Early
  Years books first.

3)Foundation and Earth was the book whose title I couldn't
  remember..remember

4)nobody caught my biggest mistake...A Pebble.. and The Stars..
  should be switched and if you haven't read these yet find time, if
  you can find the books.

p. clark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 13:25:29 MEZ
From: Carsten Zimmer <OR776%DBNUOR1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Asimov

In Germany I have heard about a book named 'Prelude to Foundation'
by I. Asimov. Can anyone give me more information about this novel,
the date of publishing and so on?

Carsten Zimmer
OR776 @ DBNUOR1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:40:47 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Alfred Bester & Green Lantern

Since both these topics have come up lately, I figured I might as
well mention, for those who haven't heard, that Alfred Bester is the
man who wrote Hal Jordan's GL oath (In brightest day, in darkest
night...).  (A number of SF writers also wrote for the comics;
Bester isn't unique.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 10:15:09 EDT
From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
To: BABOWICZ%TAMAGEN.bitnet@braggvax.arpa
Subject: A. Bertram Chandler

As a long-time fan of Chandler's stories, I was very happy to see
the listing of stories.  It included two non-Grimes books that I had
never heard of.  One non-Grimes book that is set in the Rim
Worlds/Federation Universe is titled "The Rim of Space".  It
concerns an Epsilon-class tramp, Epsilon Sextans (aka 'Sexy Eppie')
and her crew of cast-offs.
    Some Grimes books I don't recall on your list:

    The Road to the Rim               The Hard Way Up
    Spartan Planet                    Contraband from Otherspace
    The last one I bought was set on the Spartan Planet, and dealt
    with some sort of "Amazon" rebellion; title, anyone?

"Road" and "Way Up" are particularly enjoyable, as they deal with
Grimes' early career in the Federation Survey Service.  The last
two, I class as good ol' thud & blunder Space Opera.  (A good read,
tho.)  If you haven't read these, I hope you enjoy them.

Regards, & see you around Liberty Hall,
Dave Wegener
20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 13:18:17 GMT
From: rabbit1!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Belgariad

th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) says:
> Well, I've just finished reading the Belgariad.  It is possibly
> one of the most enjoyable books I've read in a long time. Alright,
> most of the plot was sign posted in the first book and the style
> of writing was hardly classic, but I loved it!
>
> And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about
> a sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ?

The next series starts with "Guardians of the West" which is out in
hardback.  Can't give you any details (I don't buy hardbacks if I
can help it - I unfortunately wait for paperbacks) but it has been
discussed extensively in this group already.

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East
Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 21:37:41 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!polyslo!jchikin@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe   Chikin)
Subject: Re: Belgariad

th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson) writes:
>Well, I've just finished reading the Belgariad.  It is possibly one
>of the most enjoyable books I've read in a long time. Alright, most
>of the plot was sign posted in the first book and the style of
>writing was hardly classic, but I loved it!
>
>And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about a
>sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ?

Yeah, I totally agree with you.  The Belgariad is not very intricate
nor written very well; yet, there is a very enjoyable quality to it.
I believe it to be fairly good characterization of Garion and
CeNedra.

You are also correct about the rumor of a sequel.  Eddings has just
released the first of another trilogy (who knows maybe even a double
trilogy).  It's called "Guardians of the West".  It won't be
available in paperback for at least a year.  The hardback has been
available since April.  I purchased the book and I completed it in a
day (about 455 pages).  It's a fairly good book and ties together all
the characters in the previous five books.  The sequel has Errand as
the principal character with trememdous powers.  Anyway, I liked the
book and advise purchasing the hardback edition if you can't wait
(like me).  Hope I helped Tony.

Joe Chikin
Cal Poly SLO, CSc Dept
San Luis Obispo, Ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 09:08:53 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White)
Subject: Spellsinger Series

First:
   Spellsinger                        1
   The Hour of the Gate               2
   The Day of the Dissonance          3
   The Moment of the Magician         4
   The Paths of the Perambulator      5
   The Time of the Transference       6

Second:
   As I heard it (on some panel at a con from ADF himself), the
   first two books of the series (Spellsinger and The Hour of the
   Gate) were originally one book.  The publisher cut it into two,
   and I believe that they didn't even tell anyone on the cover of
   the first edition that it was the first of two.  ADF wasn't happy
   about the split, but it wasn't up to him.

John L White
WHITE@DREXELVM

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Jun 87 15:53:41-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@venera.isi.edu>
Subject: Bimbos of the Death Sun

This is for real:
                      Bimbos of the Death Sun
                                 by
                           Sharyn McCrumb
                          a book review by
                            Alan R. Katz

Believe it or not, I actually only got this book because of the
title!  But, it's really very good.  The story is a murder mystery
which takes place at your typical science fiction convention.  One
of the main characters is a engineering professor who has written
his first (hard) science fiction book (which the publisher went and
named Bimbos of the Death Sun).

The world's greatest author of Science Fantasy (who is a truly
unlikable person) is found murdered in his hotel room during the con
by his agent (whose first thought is "I wonder if I get two more
wishes?").  The question then becomes: Who hated him enough to kill
him? (answer: practically anyone who knew him).  The mystery is
eventually solved by the engineering professor in the ultimate
Dungeons and Dragons role playing game (well, that's what the back
cover says).

If you have ever attended a con (and who hasn't?) you will recognize
the characters, most are stereotypes of your typical sf-con addict
and are very funny.  The costume contest, the filk singing, the
reactions of the ordinary hotel guests are all there.  The book is
published by TSR Inc.  (who, I believe, do the D & D stuff).  A very
funny book. [****] (out of 5)

------------------------------

Date: 09 Jun 87 21:41:26 EDT
From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Sheen (Book Request) Re: Hi there...

From: jo13#@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffery Thomas Oesterle)
>Its main character is of a race of 'people' in the far future who
>have evolved into wolf-like humanoids.  Its a fairly primitive
>culture, and also fairly violent.  The main character has a small
>(2' tall) friend who is silver and (I think) is called Sheen.  He
>is evil, and tries to get the main character to do evil deeds.  I
>don't remember much more about the book.  I read it a few years ago
>and would love to put my hands on it again.  Any help is
>appreciated.

The name of this classic (he said knowingly) is

A Billion Days of Earth by Dorothy Pierzak (sp?)

This is from a bad childhood memory so I don't remember all that
much, and the author's name is a poorly encoded acoustic symbol in
my neural pathways.  It sounds something like "Pierzak" or something
that goes into a regulation Space Army Disintegrator ("Hey Sarge,
throw me a new Pierzak crystal.").

Hope this helps.  Also, let me know what you think about the story.

Bruce W. Onder
WCUTECB@IUP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 04:54:52 GMT
From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Sheen (Book Request) Re: Hi there...

WCUTECB@IUP.BITNET writes:
>The name of this classic (he said knowingly) is
>
>A Billion Days of Earth by Dorothy Pierzak (sp?)

That should be Doris Piserchia. Fine book, fine writer.

Kayembee

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 01:06:48 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Dennis Wheatley Black Magic novels

From John Scott at Dartmouth (in response to my comments on the
films THE DEVIL RIDES OUT (a.k.a THE DEVIL'S BRIDE) and TO THE DEVIL
A DAUGHTER:

> You mention two movies based on novels by Dennis Wheatly.  I went
> to our local bookstore and tried to look them up in the large
> refference tomes, to no avail.  I was wondering if you could
> provide me with titles, dates, etc.  His work sounds interesting,
> and I would like to read some, since I haven't seen either of the
> two films at our video store.

Wheatley is a popular British novelist specializing in adventure
stories.  After writing many novels, he took the characters of one
and put them in THE DEVIL RIDES OUT in which they run afoul of the
powers of black magic.  That was the first of several black magic
novel, all well researched.  Wheatley also has written non-fiction
books based on his researches into witchcraft and black magic.  His
black magic novels include:

   1935 The Devil Rides Out
   1941 Strange Conflict
   1948 The Haunting of Toby Jugg
   1953 To the Devil a Daughter
   1956 The Ka of Gifford Hillary
   1960 The Satanist
   1964 They Used Dark Forces
   1970 Gateway to Hell
   1973 The Irish Witch

There may be others that I do not know about, though I suspect not.
I the late 60's Bantam Books reprinted some in this country and in
early '70s Ballantine Books also reprinted some.  Finding them in
this country could be a bit of a problem.

As for video versions of the two films, I would love to get my hands
on a complete DEVIL'S BRIDE myself.  TO THE DEVIL A DAUGHTER is
available on videotape, though the box makes it look like horrible
trash.  I believe it was Natassia Kinski's first film and the box
takes advantage of that.  An interesting fact is that the final
scenes of TO THE DEVIL A DAUGHTER was filmed on what used to be the
estate of Francis Dashwood.  I found that fairly interesting and
perhaps even appropriate.  There is a real trivia question for you!
Who out there can tell me who Francis Dashwood was?

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 17:08 EST
From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa
Subject: More on the Banned Books

Marco@ncsc.arpa gave us the list of books banned in Bay County, FL.
(by those who were the BORED of Education?).

I cannot help but observe with some amusement that a surprising
number of the books on the banned book list were REQUIRED READING
when I was in high school in rural Alabama in the late 60's.

Required reading at Walker County High (circa 1968):
   The Red Badge of Courage
   A Farewell to Arms
   Oedipus Rex
   Animal Farm
   The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin
   Fahrenheit 451
   Alas, Babylon
   The Prince and the Pauper
   Adventures in English Literature (wasn't this the TEXTBOOK?)
   Lord of the Flies
   The Call of the Wild
   Great Expectations
   The Canterbury Tales
   Brave New World
   Oedipus the King
   King Lear
   Hamlet
   The Old Man and the Sea
   The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles

And there were others, which no doubt would have made the list.
Just who are Hall and Collins?  Sounds like tar and feathers are in
order.

Emmett
BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 16:55:22 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: The last on the Book Ban

Just thought everyone would like to know.  According to the June 5
Publisher's Weekly, the Superintendent of Bay County, Florida's
School District has been overruled by the Board of Education and the
ban has been lifted.

A few interesting side comments.  The superintendent did this
without the support of the school board, and AFTER an opinion by the
district attorney that it was against board policy.  Why did he do
it anyway?  Because (to quote the district public affair officer) he
is a "very religious, intellectually honest and sincerely convinced
that the word 'goddamn' should not be in any book or taught to any
child".  [editorial note: last I looked, no school in the country
taught a student the proper usage of the word Goddamn.  But, funny
enough, they always seem to learn it anyway....]

Finally, the class action suit by the students and teachers will
continue -- the contention being that the teacher should be the
final arbiter of what is taught and what isn't, and that school
board interference is a restriction of freedom of the press.  I wish
them luck.  What this DOES do, however, is get the school board
involved in a legal fight that will cost them money -- over
something they didn't support in the first place. Which, I'm sure,
really enamors them to the superintendent.  Which is probably the
whole point of continuing the suit -- make him expensive enough of a
problem that the board will replace him... Interesting thought....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jun 87 0943-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #278
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 87 0943-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #278
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 278

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Star Trek (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 05:30:28 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Sexism

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
> I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New
> Generation.
>
> But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star
> Trek.  We had a whole 79 episodes where males commanded in every
> instance (Ensign Chekov being given the con over Lt. Uhura), with
> the top upteen (at least 4) command officers being male.  Was it
> so unrealistic of me to hope that one of the two top officers of
> TNG would be female?  I had decided it was so....
>
> Or is it just the rabid feminist in me that makes the cast of TNG
> rub me the wrong way?

Let's see.  Assuming males are equally as capable as females, you
should have one ship out of four that has the top two officers male.

Michale Crichton quoted some bogus survey in The Andromeda Strain,
that said that single men were more often correct at making life or
death decisions.  Assuming something like this is true, than perhaps
the ratio of males to females in command positions is more like 2 to
1.  In which case the odds are around 50-50 that both top positions
are filled by males.

However, they copped out.  They shouldn't have had male-male--that's
just a dup of Star Trek.  They shouldn't have had male-female (male
captain, female first officer)--that's a dup of The Cage.  They
shouldn't have had female- female--people would have claimed that
they were just playing role-reversal games.  However, a female
pilot/male first officer might have been interesting.

Hmm.  This and the other feminist issues in sf-lovers makes me kind
of curious-- has there been a (well-received) book or story
published lately in which one (human) sex is superior to another?
Just asking.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 87 12:42:22 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG

I posted the following article to STARTREK CSNOTICE on CSNEWS.

Okay, now that we've had two postings about The New Generation,
let's have some discussion on the subject.  I think that despite
sone fans' opinions to the contrary, TNG can be valid Star Trek.
Anybody who's read THE FINAL REFLECTION, by John M. Ford, will know
that excellent Star Trek can be written without use of the
characters we all know and love. (Well, minimal use.)  When I saw
the description of the characters, I nearly fainted.  However, on
further thought, I realized that a modern-day Horatio Hornblower, a
half-breed alien/human, and an old country doctor might have sounded
just as radical when Star Trek first started.  Shirley Maiewsky
(sp?) argued in a recent Globe article that Star Trek was good
because of its characters.  Okay, folks, let's talk Pike, Boyce, and
Number One.  Okay, I'm done ranting and raving for the time being.
Someone else take over now.

------------------------------

Date: 04 Jun 87 14:44:14 EDT
From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG Sexism?

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM (Lisa Wahl) writes:
>I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New
>Generation.
>
>But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star
>Trek.

Are we comparing the same notes here?  From what I know there are no
fewer than three females with positions of high authority...

Lt. Tanya Yar   -- Cheif of Security
Lt. Deanna Troi -- Cheif of Psychology
Beverly Crusher -- Cheif Medical Officer

Seems to me that there's a vast improvement over either the old TV
series _or_ any of the movies.

If you are concerned that the captain and his 1st are still men, I
share your view.  I think that the series could do no wrong with a
strong central _female_ character.  But such is life.  At least the
_women_ in STTNG are _real_!

Case in point: Data, a stupid name for a stupid android who will
_look_ like either an Asian or American Indian.  That's great, real
great (:-).  What's wrong with the real thing?  And will we have to
say "to go boldly (ahem) where no man or android has gone before"?
I don't see much need for the android; the ship has enough AI to go
around.

Ah, well.  Perhaps Data will meet the Terminator...

Bruce W. Onder
WCUTECB@IUP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 87 11:43 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: ST:TNG

At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next
Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some info
from it.

*SPOILER ALERT*

There's a lot of interesting information in here, confirming almost
all of the stuff that's been on the net to date.  I won't try to
reproduce much of it here, but I'll throw out a few tidbits that
stick in my mind:

1) Set 78 years since "the time of Kirk and Spock."  Does this mean
since the series?  Since the movies?  Since they died?  And why 78?

2) We now know what Stardates mean!  " A stardate is a five-digit
number followed by a decimal point and one more digit.  Example:
41254.7 The first two digits of the stardate are always 41.  The 4
stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season.  The
additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the
course of the season from 000 to 999.  The digit following the
decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter."

3) We now know what Warp's mean!  At least we're told, not only that
Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum sustainable
speed, is 1 light-year per hour.

4) Communicators are part of the uniform's insignia--great way to
avoid losing them on landing parties.

Additional info on the characters make them much more appealing to
me.  Captain Picard is in his 50's, a veteran commander from a 15
year mission with the USS Stargazer.  The Enterprise is one of the
first ship's with this "bring the wife and kids along" bit, and he's
not really comfortable with the idea.  While he's much attracted to
Beverly Crusher, they have a stumbling block in their relationship
-- her husband was killed under his command and, to some extent,
blames Picard.

Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an
advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony.  Said intelligence
distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this android.  Data's
favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing more than to be a
"real boy."

The blind black guy, La Forge, gets on well with Data, probably
because he has a similar hang-up.  He would like to have real eyes,
instead of his super-special vision (microscopic, telescopic, he can
function, in some ways, like a tricorder).  He sometimes works the
CON station (helm and navigation), so, yes, the Enterprise is driven
by a blind man.

Dena Troi, our half-Betazoid (sounds like a stomach remedy to me)
"counselor" is somewhat telepathic.  She can generally sense
emotions in humans.  Sounds like her ability may work on aliens,
too, as convenient for the plot.

The Guide says Wesley's not a nerd.  But the description sure makes
him sound like one.

Tasha Yar (with "an unusual quality of conditioned-body beauty that
would have flabbergasted males of a few centuries earlier.") had a
rough childhood.  Her barbaric upbringing in a doomed colony has her
worshipping Order and Starfleet and most of all, her superior
officers.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 04:05:42 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

In reference to Lisa Wahl's article which is too long to include
here...

I've been trying to figure out what it is about ST:TNG that has been
bothering me.  Basically, I get the feeling that there are too many
"gimmicks".  One character is an andriod, another is blind (with
prosthetic eyes), one is half-betazoid, one is a child genius....  I
guess I'm worried that they are going to try to make the characters
INTO the stories instead of having the characters be PART OF the
stories.  One of the nice things about the original Star Trek series
was that each episode was distinct and separate from the rest.  They
could have occured in any order (and in syndication, they usually
do).  I'd hate to see ST:TNG turn out to be more like Hill Street
Blues than the original ST.  (Not that I have ANYTHING against Hill
Street Blues!  I happen to like the show.  I just don't think that
ST:TNG should be a continuing drama like HSB).

Whenever I start thinking that the show is doomed, however, I just
think about how the original Star Trek must have looked.  I mean,
portraying an alien as having green skin and pointed ears?  What
1950s martian movies were these guys watching?

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 20:37:19 GMT
From: quirk@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next
>Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some info
>from it.
>
>1) Set 78 years since "the time of Kirk and Spock."  Does this mean
>since the series?  Since the movies?  Since they died?  And why 78?

My bet would be 78 years after they 'retired for active duty'.  We
all know that Kirk & co. will never actually die. ;-)

>2) We now know what Stardates mean!  " A stardate is a five-digit
>number followed by a decimal point and one more digit.  Example:
>41254.7 The first two digits of the stardate are always 41.  The 4
>stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season.  The
>additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the
>course of the season from 000 to 999.  The digit following the
>decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter."

I see that thy finally decided to 'standardize' the Stardate system.
Too bad they waited 20+ yeasr to do it.  How will they reconcile SD
8147.3 (From ST-II I believe) with this 'new' system?  What was
wrong with the 'random' numbers which had to be refrenced to the
ship's chronometer in order to make sense? ;-) Looks to me that
they're trying to make it too rigid.  Besides, We all know how the
Stardate REALLY works.  Today's Stardate is 8706.5 (Jun 5, 1987).
;-)

>3) We now know what Warp's mean!  At least we're told, not only
>that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum
>sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour.

Again they decide to change something for the sake of changing
things.  It has been established that Wapr Factor (WF) 1 is the
speed of light in vacuum (c).  WF 2 = 8c.  WF 3 = 27c.  WF (n) =
(n)^3 * c.  And I still disagree that WF 6 is the maximum speed!  In
*ST-TMP* the big E went to WF 9!  I don't think that 78+ yeasr of
'progress' will make the Warp Drive less powerful.

>4) Communicators are part of the uniform's insignia--great way to
>avoid losing them on landing parties.

Finally!  A good idea.  Now the aliens will have to strip the
characters in order to take their communication equipment away. (1/2
;-))

>Additional info on the characters make them much more appealing to
>me.  Captain Picard is in his 50's, a veteran commander from a 15
>year mission with the USS Stargazer.  The Enterprise is one of the
>first ship's with this "bring the wife and kids along" bit, and
>he's not really comfortable with the idea.  While he's much
>attracted to Beverly Crusher, they have a stumbling block in their
>relationship--her husband was killed under his command and, to some
>extent, blames Picard.

I agree with Picard.  I'm not too comfortable with the idea either.

>Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an
>advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony.  Said intelligence
>distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this android.  Data's
>favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing more than to be a
>"real boy."

Corny.  What's wrong with another Vulcan?  (Maybe Saavik in her
middle years.)

>The blind black guy, La Forge, gets on well with Data, probably
>because he has a similar hang-up.  He would like to have real eyes,
>instead of his super-special vision (microscopic, telescopic, he
>can function, in some ways, like a tricorder).  He sometimes works
>the CON station (helm and navigation), so, yes, the Enterprise is
>driven by a blind man.

This, I think, has some possiblilties.  A good writer could have
some fun with this character.

>Dena Troi, our half-Betazoid (sounds like a stomach remedy to me)
>"counselor" is somewhat telepathic.  She can generally sense
>emotions in humans.  Sounds like her ability may work on aliens,
>too, as convenient for the plot.

Combination of Vulcan and Deltan.  Hmm.  I'll wait for the first
show to judge this one.

>The Guide says Wesley's not a nerd.  But the description sure makes
>him sound like one.

No comment.

>Tasha Yar (with "an unusual quality of conditioned-body beauty that
>would have flabbergasted males of a few centuries earlier.") had a
>rough childhood.  Her barbaric upbringing in a doomed colony has
>her worshipping Order and Starfleet and most of all, her superior
>officers.

I'm really not too sure about this one either.  It will have to wait.

Long lives, etc.

T. Kogoma
quirk@europa.unm.edu
hi!europa!quirk@hc.dspo.gov
{gatech|ucbvax|seismo}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!europa!quirk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 09:08:27 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Sexism

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>I'm not bothered by the lack of racial balance in The New
>Generation.
>
>But, darn, I feel males have had their shot at command in Star
>Trek.  We had a whole 79 episodes where males commanded in every
>instance (Ensign Chekov being given the con over Lt. Uhura), ...

Although I will be the first to point out that the command structure
of the Enterprise is bogus, I have a question: in what episode was
Chekov given the con?  I have searched my memory banks and have come
up blank on that one.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
..!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 21:46:44 GMT
From: ellis@ultra.dec.com (David Ellis)
Subject: Enterprise Command

Robert A. West (Q4071@PUCC) asked:
> Although I will be the first to point out that the command
> structure of the Enterprise is bogus, I have a question: in what
> episode was Chekov given the con?  I have searched my memory banks
> and have come up blank on that one.

It was at the end of _Journey to Babel_, when Captain Kirk gets
ready to return to sickbay after the intruder is destroyed.

David Ellis
Digital Equipment Corporation
305 Foster Street
Littleton MA 01460
(617)486-6784
Usenet:  {ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!ultra.dec.com!ellis
ARPA:    ellis%ultra.dec@decwrl.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 04:46:01 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

quirk@europa.unm.edu writes:
>>Dena Troi, our half-Betazoid (sounds like a stomach remedy to me)
>>"counselor" is somewhat telepathic.  She can generally sense
>>emotions in humans.  Sounds like her ability may work on aliens,
>>too, as convenient for the plot.
>
>Combination of Vulcan and Deltan.  Hmm.  I'll wait for the first
>show to judge this one.

I fail to see what's so wrong with this one.  (However, if she's
emotionally well adjusted, they'd better state that she received
training on Vulcan.)  I speak from personal experience on this
topic.

Brandon S. Allbery
aXcess Company
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
{decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jun 87 1015-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #279
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 87 1015-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #279
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 279

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Tom Swift (6 msgs) &
                            Some Requests (3 msgs) &
                            Upcoming Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 23:58:16 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Tom Swift

Ted Nolan writes:
>Has anybody realized that there is (maybe was) a new Tom Swift
>series now?  I ran across it a few years ago.  As a kid, I had all
>the Tom Swift Jr. books from the fifties and the sixties, and many
>of the original Tom Swift books from the teens through the
>thirties, so I bought a couple to see what they were doing with the
>concept these days.

I used to have one of the Tom Swift Jr. books back about the time it
was printed (late '60s).  It was part of series much like the Hardy
Boys and Nancy Drew.  (Incidentally, I looked at Hardy Boys stuff
recently and recognized none of the titles I used to have.  Do they
junk the old stories every so often?)

I also have a copy of _Tom Swift and His Television Detector_,
copyright 1933, written by Victor Appleton.  (The new series book,
whose title I've forgotten, was either written by Appleton or his
son-- memory fails me, and the book is either lost or sealed in the
attic.)  There is essentially nothing in common between the two
series except the name Tom Swift and the idea of writing the book
around a device invented by Mr. Swift, who in the earlier series is
in his early twenties.  My recollection is that Tow Swift *Jr.* is
in his teens, by contrast.  The TSJ book was essentially in the
Hardy Boys mold, with the SF elements woven into it.

Those racked with nostalgia over the original Tom Swift books,
however, need to have their circuits re-tuned.  The writing style
is, at best, florid.  The politics of at least the one I have are
distinctly right-wing.  There's a lot of casual racism.

But compared to _Dave Darrin's Second Year at Annapolis_, copyright
1911, Tom Swift is Shakespeare.  Besides being nearly pure
propaganda for the honor, bravery, and guts of our fighting Navy, it
has a prolixity which is hard to rival.  Herewith, a brief passage
decribing part of a fight arranged between the protagonist and his
nemesis, Pennington:

   "I'll wipe that grin off his face!" muttered Pennington angrily.

   And this very thing Pennington tried hard to do.  He was quick on
 his own feet, and for a few seconds he followed the dodging Darrin
 about, raining in blows that required all of Dave's adroitness to
 escape.

   Dave's very success, however, made his opponent all the angrier.
 From annoyance, followed by excessive irritation, Pennington went
 into almost blind rage-- and the man who does that, anywhere in
 life, must always pay for it.

Among other things, we have (a) the classmate seduced by the evil
chinaman and his opium den, (b) three fights for the sake of Honor,
(c) the hometown girl who is the subject of fights 2 and 3, (d) the
"duty-mad" lieutenant who reports fights 2 and 3 to (e) the
commandant who turns a blind eye on the whole proceedings, (f)
heroic efforts to cut the academic mustard, and (g) a trip across
the Atlantic involving (1) fight 1, (2) lots of naval color, (3) an
attempt to strand the heros in England, and (4) TWO trips over the
side by Our Hero, including an Heroic Rescue.

It's all a bit much.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 05:22:11 GMT
From: tyg@lll-crg.arpa (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Tom Swift

Ah, yes, Tom Swift, Jr., who along with Tom Terrific on Captain
Kangaroo, were two of my favorite childhood characters [one guess as
to a large reason why!].

At any rate, Charly Wingate made an error when he wrote that the Jr.
series was written by "his [Victor Appleton] son". Actually two
errors; first, the authors were the same person, just a slightly
different penname [a II was attached to the Appleton], and second
the author was female.  I don't recall her name, but her obit a few
years ago mentioned that she was both names, as well as the author
of several other well known series, perhaps including Nancy Drew
and/or The Hardy Boys although I won't swear to the exact series at
this date.

And the current series of Tom Swift Jr. books is indeed insipid.
They even have a terrible example of a robot tagging along. Bleah.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 19:45:24 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: Tom Swift

tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes:
> At any rate, Charly Wingate made an error when he wrote that the
> Jr.  series was written by "his [Victor Appleton] son". Actually
> two errors; first, the authors were the same person, just a
> slightly different penname [a II was attached to the Appleton],
> and second the author was female.  I don't recall her name, but
> her obit a few years ago mentioned that she was both names, as
> well as the author of several other well known series, perhaps
> including Nancy Drew and/or The Hardy Boys although I won't swear
> to the exact series at this date.

Well, I can speak with a tiny bit of authority on this, but not
much, since my memory fails me on some particulars.

The female mentioned above was Helen(?) Stratemeyer, daughter of the
man who wrote/created the Hardy Boys books (and whose real name may
have been Franklin Adams or whatever the HB author's name is/was; if
not, try "Frank Stratemeyer").  Her father created the Hardy Boys
and Nancy Drew and a couple of other juvenile series, including Tom
Swift Sr.  He wrote 'em all, too, until he started making enough
money to hire ghost writers; then, he just plotted them all.  She
took up the family business and eventually controlled it after her
father's death.  At some point, it became The Stratemeyer Syndicate,
and its office was in my home town: Maplewood, NJ.  If she's dead
now, the business isn't.

There were a couple of articles written about her in various
national magazines, so I'm sure someone can check me on all this.

The only reason I know as little as I do is that, in college, a
friend of mine started out to produce a radio series (on WSHU, Seton
Hall University, South Orange, NJ) based on the Hardy Boys, and I
was doing the script adaptations.  He had a signed contract from the
Syndicate and everything.  (I may still have a copy.)  It fell
through when he couldn't get enough actors interested in donating
their time.  The contract lapsed, and soon after TV picked up both
the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew for series.

Anyway, the Hardy Boys/Nancu Drew/Tom Swift books were done by a
Small Eastern Syndicate, not by individual authors or their
children.  Sorry if I popped any illusions.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 08:53:23 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Tom Swift

mangoe@mimsy.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
> I used to have one of the Tom Swift Jr. books back about the time
> it was printed (late '60s).  It was part of series much like the
> Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew.  (Incidentally, I looked at Hardy Boys
> stuff recently and recognized none of the titles I used to have.
> Do they junk the old stories every so often?)

I believe the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew books were revised at least
once under the same titles to keep them from seeming outdated, while
the Tom Swift series had to be redone more completely.  Don't know
about the newest incarnations.

> I also have a copy of _Tom Swift and His Television Detector_,
> copyright 1933, written by Victor Appleton.  (The new series book,
> whose title I've forgotten, was either written by Appleton or his
> son-- memory fails me, and the book is either lost or sealed in
> the attic.)  There is essentially nothing in common between the
> two series except the name Tom Swift and the idea of writing the
> book around a device invented by Mr. Swift, who in the earlier
> series is in his early twenties.  My recollection is that Tow
> Swift *Jr.* is in his teens, by contrast.  The TSJ book was
> essentially in the Hardy Boys mold, with the SF elements woven
> into it.

Actually the second series has quite a few tie-ins and parallels.
Many of the newer books are actually based on the original stories
or at least the original plot outlines with updated science and
moralistics.

> Those racked with nostalgia over the original Tom Swift books,
> however, need to have their circuits re-tuned.  The writing style
> is, at best, florid.  The politics of at least the one I have are
> distinctly right-wing.  There's a lot of casual racism.

But of course!  The books are intended as juvenile literature and
are supposed to represent the common social values of the day.
Given 75 years of perspective (the series ran from ~1911-1930's)
most moral literature shows it's age.

They are racist, sexist, jingoistic, &c.  So were (are?) we.  If you
want to enjoy any less-than-classic literature, it's best to
understand the context it was written in.  This is true of whether
it's juvenile literature from the early part of the century,
pre-60's science fiction or todays stuff.

Personally, I think the original series were better than the new.
The "science" seems fresher and more real.  More adventure, more
villains.  The bad guys/ contries change over time rather than being
a monolithic cold-war pseudo-russia.  The characters, while
overblown and stereotyped are memorable (Mr. Damon, Koku,
Eradicate...) and change/age as the series goes on.

Reading both gave me an understanding of the changes in both society
and science over time.  Selling my collection of them along with the
rest of newer series stuff I had accumulated by the end of Jr. High
was a mistake that I will most likely spend an excessive amount of
money to correct one of these days.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 04:26:41 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Tom Swift

Yes, the Tom Swift books, the Hardy Boys series, and Nancy Drew were
all written by the same person. When I first heard this, I believed
it, being a big fan of all three series when I was a kid (in the
sixties - these were the Tom Swift Jr. Books)

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 87 02:36:58 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: first SF

My first SF was "Tom Swift and his Polar-Ray Dynasphere".  Meaning
Swift, Jr., of course.  I was very young, and found it rather
engaging in jumping back and forth from space stations to experiment
labs to flying submarines to giant planes, etc.  But this particular
book (I didn't know then that there were others) had a much more
exotic element: a group of 25 East Indian trainees.  In fact, the
Swift group wound up visiting and exploring their province in India
to investigate a plot -- amazing the number of plots Tom
investigated.  For a long time afterward I tried to find the name
Vishnapur in the atlas, and was very disappointed when I couldn't.
I think it was the exotic Indian parts as much as the "repellatron"
spacecraft and other gadgets that I found engaging.  It was in fact
the first place I ever heard of the Indian goddess Kali.

This was also the first place I encountered the idea of whole
countries being enemies.  In his first test of the dynasphere, Tom
accidentally captures a "Brungarian" satellite.  Brungaria is an
enemy country, presumably meant to be Eastern European, though that
much detail is never used.  I recall thinking at the time how
impossible that sounded.  How could everybody in a whole country
have the same inimical feeling toward something or somebody?  The
propaganda about Brungarians never did go down very well.

If anybody's interested (which seems unlikely), the "Polar-Ray
Dynasphere" bit referred to a device that would ionise an object by
polarising the electric charge on it.  The idea was that you could
then attract it or repel it at will by adjusting that polarisation.
The device was built as a sphere within a focusing arrangement to
direct the ray.  Hence, "polarising ray dynamism sphere."  Daft, but
not so much as to lose all sense of credibility.

My interest would probably have waned, though, but for the fact that
my mother is an avid lover of science-fiction, so there was always
some around the house, and I wound up reading quite a number of sf
short stories.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 12:43:24 GMT
From: mtune!hou2g!scott@RUTGERS.EDU (Scott Berry)
Subject: Author Query (..Crooked House)

My brother has a question which I thought might be answered here.
Please MAIL responses to me, since I don't usually read this group.

Who wrote the story "And He Built a Crooked House", and where has it
appeared?  My brother is trying to find a copy.  Thanks.

(As a memory jogger, it's the one about a guy who built a house that
was a tesseract.)

Scott J. Berry
ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 17:06 EST
From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa
Subject: Danny Dunn series

Wow, does that take me back.
I read all those books when I was in second grade, I think.

Does anyone remember the author's name, and/or have a list of the
books in the series?

(do you suppose they are still in print?)

Emmett
BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 17:10 EST
From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa
Subject: Lost Book: Title/Author Request

Anyone ever heard of a book titled "Lost; a Moon" ?  At least I
believe that was the title.

It's a book I read in childhood, and have since been unable to
locate.  My impression was that it was by RAH; but I've been unable
to find any reference to it (particularly not in a list of RAH's
works).

To the best of my recollection; the story is set in orbit around
Mars, where one of the moons was actually a large artificial
satellite, presumably constructed by the "Martians" to stage a mass
exodus.  The "moon" contains a LARGE sapient computer (LARGE=
"miles, and miles of clicking relays") which was holding our
protagonist captive.  In one part of the book, the protagonist
convinced the computer that he would die if his beard reached his
chest; in order to get the computer to fabricate a razor for him.

Has anyone else ever read, or even HEARD of this book?

Thanks;

Emmett
BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA
BlackJE@CRD.GE.COM
BlackJE@CSBVAX.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 11:30:08 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: upcoming books....

> What!?  Where's DOC SAVAGE OMNIBUS #4?  I just picked up #3 the
> other day, and it claims an October '87 release for #4.  Is it (I
> hope) actually in Bantam's *summer* releases?

The list I published was not complete, just the books Bantam is
leading with.  I'd guess the Doc Savage is on schedule, but it is a
midlist item.

> Does anyone know when the following books will be made available
> in soft cover?
>
>    1.  Piers Anthony's _Wielding a Red Sword_ (4th in the
>        Incarnations of Immortality series

Late summer/fall.

>    2.  Isaac Asimov's _Foundation and Earth_ (5th in the
>        Foundation series)

I haven't heard.  I'd expect it to be a Christmas book, though.

>    3.  Roger Zelazny's _Blood of Amber_ (?) (2nd in the 2nd
>        Chronicles of Amber series)

I think this is a July or August book.

chuq

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Jun 87 0835-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #280
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 87 0835-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #280
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 280

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Asimov & Baum & Bester &
                          Brin (4 msgs) & Brooks (2 msgs) &
                          Capon & Crichton (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 05:13:03 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Asimov's Empire

> From: ted@braggvax.arpa       (Ted Nolan)
> There was a short story set in the Trantor/Empire/Foundation
> universe which concerned the only intelligent nonhuman species
> ever found.  I can't remember the title, but it was collected in
> _The Early Asimov_ (I think).  The story explains what happened to
> them and why they did not figure in any of the other story in this
> universe.  (Although he could still bring them back if he wanted
> to).

"Blind Alley", which appears in THE EARLY ASIMOV, VOLUME 2 (or
VOLUME 3 if you go by the British paperbacks).

VOLUME 1 also contains a story that refers to Santanni and Trantor
--- "Black Friar of the Flame" --- but one really can't take that
story seriously as part of the series.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 11:34 PDT
From: Trigg.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Thanks for the help in Tik Tok pix search

Many thanks for all the responses I got to my query on which Oz
books contain pictures of Tik Tok.  As many pointed out, Tik Tok was
introduced in Ozma of Oz and further adventures are found in Tik Tok
in Oz.

A friend was looking for a picture for the cover of her upcoming
book on human-computer interaction.  She ended up choosing the plate
in Ozma of Oz wherein Dorothy looks deeply into the eyes of Tik Tok.
Someone mentioned that Ozma of Oz happens to be in the public domain
which will make the whole process much easier.  It's still unclear
whether Tik Tok will be the final choice (it's competing against a
sketch by Miro and a solid color cover), but you might keep your
eyes open for it when browsing the bookstores this Fall.

Randy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 87 16:58:01 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Stars My Destination (Bester)

This is to the individual who is desperate for a copy of Bester's
_The Stars My Destination_.  Sorry I didn't jot your name down
before I composed this message.

*****SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!******

I picked up a copy of The Stars My Destination last week at a used
book sale going on in the hallway of a neighboring office building.
It is interesting, but I wouldn't sweat blood over not finding it
any time soon.  I had major problems with a number of scenes in the
book.

For example:

It is made perfectly clear that all windows are of one-way glass so
no one can look in and memorize the coordinates of a room, yet time
and again, when our heroes need to get someplace they can SEE, they
don't teleport. Sam is killed because he jumps onto a
(non-functioning) anti-grav beam instead of "jaunting".  At the end,
when "the burning man" is in the basement of St Pat's, they have to
tunnel to him from across the street instead of simply jaunting down
next to him. Now really. This is a bit much. First off, why doesn't
he simply _burn up_???? His clothes are on fire. Has he miraculously
become some sort of god??? Second, they can clearly see him, yet
they have to go across the street into a boarded up building, locate
the basements, locate the correct direction, and dig their way
thru?? This would take HOURS!!!  And how do they know (especially as
_I_ didn't) that since his clothes are already on fire, he isn't
long since expired whilst they are pawing around down there in the
(excessively fortuituous) tunnels??????

Then there is the radioactive character (forgot his name) who can
only stay in the same room with anyone for a max of 5 minutes a day.
What sort of magick is it that keeps HIM alive, when he can manage
to kill an orchid with his radioactivity just by cupping it in his
hands???

The mazes and baffles are never adequately explained. How do they
work?  Purely featureless?? Why can't I envision myself in the maze
at Macy's, and jaunt there??? Or is it constantly changing??  But,
so what. I'll just envision myself in the women's room instead. Or
wherever. With a stocking over my head. Then I'll grab what I want
out of the jewelry counter or the shoe department, and jaunt away.
??How did any store survive???

And why the silly artificial seeming barriers of distance?? 5 miles,
25, 100, 500, 1000??? No wonder Foyle was able to surmount these. So
could anyone, if they believed they could...or so we find out. How
did it happen to take so gosh-darn many years before someone had the
nerve to try, and once the outer planet types had proof that someone
had jaunted 650,000 miles, why did they need Foyle??  They should
just go out and do it themselves??? Where's their initiative? The
man was UNCONCIOUS when he jaunted that far. What made them think,
even if they caught him, that he could tell them anything about how
he did it?

A character that can only see in infra-red vision??? And why should
that prevent her from jaunting??  She can SEE after all. She can
tell where she is. Just because it looks different from how other
people see it...

Moreover, if visualizing is so all fired important that you must
actually SEE a place before you can go there by jaunting, I really
don't see how they can expect to go to the stars. But the end of the
book was about as clear as the end of _2001_ on this..lots of colors
(scenes) but no explanation. Then he passes out. The end.

*****END SPOILERS******

So...I understand why a previous respondent said he never read any
more Bester after The Demolished Man. If its worse than this...I
mean, suspension of belief is all well and fine (I have always
enjoyed the Dragonriders of Pern stories: accept that dragons can
fly and that the Red Star can fling spores across space and the rest
of it holds water. Mostly.) But so many things were wrong with _The
Stars My Destination_ I kept being mentally stopped to argue with
it. I never did accept the end.

I won't be rereading it...too many other, better, books out there
yet to read!!!

Sheri L. Smith-Moreau
3842 Brighton Ct
Alexandria, VA  22305
(703) 836-1729

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 04:57:22 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #271:David Brin
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

David Brin has no need to envy the 'improved English' of the
Covenant books.  He actually talks like that.  And I mean in
conversations, not lectures.  A bit pretentious, perhaps, but we all
have our quirks.

------------------------------

From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: The Uplift War
Date: 11 Jun 87 14:43:05 GMT

                           The Uplift War
                             David Brin

This book is now out in paperback.  It is set in the same universe
as Startide Rising, and occurs after the events of that book, though
it is not really a sequel.  However, it does show us in more detail
Galactic society, the Galactics' idea of the "uplift" process, and
much else.  With over 600 pages, there is room for much else, and
it's all worth having.

I found it a very good book, better than Startide Rising.  The cast
includes humans, the intelligent chimps, various aliens, but no
dolphins (frankly, I don't miss them).  The action takes place
almost entirely on a small planet with only one major settlement;
this allows the narrative to concentrate on characters, cameo
scenes, and plot lines based largely on the internal workings of
sapient minds.

I shan't explain the plot, or give anything away, since I'm sure
you'll want to read this book.  But one word of reassurance: there
is a war, with, in a sense, winners and losers.  But the winners
don't win by inventing superduper weapons, nor because their leader
is a military genius from a parallel universe.  Nor are there scenes
of grunt & gore.  The treatment is realistic and humane.

Good SF.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 22:38:02 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: The Uplift War

I just finished reading this, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I was
disappointed with the characterization of the non-human races.  The
chimpanzees (who barely passed Stage 3 of the Uplift test, whatever
that means), were depicted as humans with slight deficiencies in
creative thought and attention to details.  The Tymbrini were
portrayed as "humans who don't understand metaphors".

The Gubru aren't portrayed as human clones, but their psychological
adaptment seemed curiously lacking.  You'd expect a rather different
view of the world from an avian, but the differences Brin portrays
do not seem related to the racial background.  The Triumvarite and
its reflection in the Gubru language (the tripling of verbs - but
shouldn't the verbs have reflected the Military, Religion and
Accounting of the sentence, not be synonyms?) was neat and well
done, but a rather shallow characterization.

Anyone else bothered by this?

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 20:14:23 GMT
From: nee@sdics.ucsd.edu (Clydene Nee)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #271:David Brin

>Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E@Xerox.COM wrote:
>David Brin has no need to envy the 'improved English' of the
>Covenant books.  He actually talks like that.  And I mean in
>conversations, not lectures.  A bit pretentious, perhaps, but we
>all have our quirks.

Yes, he does have a tendency lecture to audiences of even one, or
less ;-).  However, it's not exactly what I would call a "quirk(s)."

David is a very gifted writer and speaker, though it should never
openly admit it to him face to face; nowadays he does have a
tendency to get rather amour-propre about the whole thing. In the
days before he won the Hugo and Nebula for Star Tide Rising one
would often see him captivate large groups with scintillating
conversation, or reading short stories aloud.  I wish I had a
command of the English lanugange half as well as he has.

Clydene Nee
nee@sdics.ucsd.edu
nee%sdics.ucsd.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!ics!nee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 16:10:35 EDT
From: martinte@wpafb-fdl.arpa
Subject: Book Request...

>Don't give up on Terry Brooks yet. I have a habit of not consigning
>authors to the trash bin because of earlier works, so after reading
>(and hating) the Shannara series, I read MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE:
>SOLD!. ***IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!*** And it was nothing like the LORD
>OF THE RINGS.

Who are you trying to kid!! Brook's new novel MAGIC KINGDOM FOR
SALE: SOLD!  was about as exciting as watching dew collect on grass!
The premise was an original idea to be sure, but the story was
developed in such an unexciting way that I had to force myself to
finish it.

As for the Shannara series, granted that the **FIRST** book of the
series was a lot like LOTR, but I have yet to hear of someone on the
net who hasn't been able to finish it. There have been a few posting
on the net about how boring LOTR was and how difficult (if not
impossible!) it was to finish. I read the Shannara series BEFORE I
read LOTR, and I was more impressed with Brook's version than then
the long, drawn out version of Tolkien. _The Sword of Shannara_ was
fast-paced, entertaining reading, and if you would stop trying to
condemn the book because it is patterned after Tolkien you just
might realize that it is enjoyable reading. And I enjoyed the next
two as much as I did the first.

Don't get me wrong. I did (after pushing myself through the first
two books) enjoy LOTR very much, but after having read the Shannara
series without the influence of Tolkien I found it to be the better
series. Also, why not reserve your judgement until after you have
read all three books!

T. Martin
Wright-Patterson AFB
Dayton, Ohio 45433

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 18:47:58 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dominic
From: Dunlop)
Subject: Re: Book request...

> Don't give up on Terry Brooks yet.  I have a habit of not
> consigning authors to the trash bin because of earlier works, so
> after reading (and hating) the Shannara series, I read MAGIC
> KINGDOM FOR SALE: SOLD!.  ***IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!*** And it is
> NOTHING like LORD OF THE RINGS.

Seconded.  MAGIC... is mildly humourous, doesn't require too many
brain cells, and looks to me as if it's custom-made for a sequel.  I
was feeling depressed when I read it.  It made the gloom evaporate.

Strangely enough, the much-lauded David Brin has written a book in a
rather similar vein, _The Practice Effect_.  Totally unlike his
other full-length works (_Sundiver_, _The Postman_, and (can't
remember dolphin/human-crewed space ship novel title)), it ought to
be a cert for a Spielberg film screenplay.  (No charge for this
idea...)  That doesn't imply a lack of good thinking and
self-consistency, in case anybody wondered.  (Read Brin's other
books too.)

In this genre, I could also mention three books by Terry Pratchett:
_The Colour of Magic_, _The Light Fantastic_ and _Equal Rites_.  I
don't know if they have been published in the US.  The last is
currently in hardback only here in the UK.  Enormously funny
(especially if you like bad puns and logical ideas developed to
illogical extremes).  Trivia buffs may be interested in the fact
that Pratchett first developed the central idea of a flat world in
_Strata_ a few years back, repopulating and considerably ornamenting
it for the current series.

Dominic Dunlop
UKnet: domo@sphinx.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 16:30:07 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Lost Book: Title/Author Request

From:   blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa
> Anyone ever heard of a book titled "Lost; a Moon" ? ...  It's a
> book I read in childhood, and have since been unable to locate.
> My impression was that it was by RAH; but I've been unable to find
> any reference to it (particularly not in a list of RAH's
> works)....

It's by Paul Capon. It originally appeared in England under the
title PHOBOS, THE ROBOT PLANET.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 23:55:06 GMT
From: batoma@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Burt Toma)
Subject: Sphere by Michael Crichton

Anyone out there who enjoys Michael Crichton (... Andromeda Strain,
Congo) should try his new book 'Sphere.'  It's terrific.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 16:24:07 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Sphere by Michael Crichton

batoma@lll-tis.arpa (Burt Toma) writes:
> Anyone out there who enjoys Michael Crichton (... Andromeda
> Strain, Congo) should try his new book 'Sphere.'  It's terrific.

   What's it about?  Any non-spoiling information to wet our
appetities?  Is it science fiction?

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College
        Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349
UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Jun 87 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #281
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 87 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #281
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 281

Today's Topics:

                Films - Robotech II: The Sentinels &
                        Patrick Stewart & SF Movie Quiz &
                        Space Balls & Phantom Of The Paradise

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 87 18:07:19 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Robotech II: The Sentinels (Some SPOILERS)

This article contains spoilers: beware!

On the weekend of May 30th, a Creation Con was held at the Golden
Gateway Holiday Inn in San Francisco.  Two of the guests were Carl
Macek, and Greg Snegoff (Greg Snow in the credits -- he did Khyron,
Scott Bernard, Mayor Luan, and Dr. Lang in Sentinels).  They brought
with them a copy of:
 Robotech II: The Sentinels.

This article is intended to be a complete synopsis to the 70-minute
movie.

Before I go into the synopsis, I think I should thank an unknown
person on Compu-serve who did a smaller piece on The Sentinels.

General notes:
   It is unlikely that Robotech II will ever be seen on TV.  At a
cost of $975,000 (yes, three zeros) for the 70 minute segment, and
with a planned 65 episodes, the total comes to around $16-18
million.
   The novelization for Robotech II will be published after Book #12
of the current Robotech series.  Jack McKinney will be the author.
The series will run to either 6 or 8 books.

And now for the spoilers!

Some notes on Robotech II:
   All of the actors who did the voiceovers are back except for
Penny Sweet, who did Miriya and Nova Satori.  The new voice is very
different, and since Miriya no longer has green hair, she was
unrecognizable at first.
   The time frame of The Sentinels is nine years after the wreck of
the SDF-1 and 2.  The SDF-3 is nearly complete and is about to
embark on its mission to find the homeworld of the Robotech Masters
to put an end to their conflict.
   All of the characters now wear the uniforms seen in the Southern
Cross segment.
   Breetai has been micronized and wears a new face mask which
pretty much obscures his whole face.
   Exedore has grown and looks more normal than before.
   Dr. Lang is now a major character.  He is the Mission Leader.

Robotech II: The Sentinels

   Veritech pilot Jack Baker and his squadron are in combat with an
unknown enemy.  Rick Hunter is in command of the squadron.  Baker
switches off his autopilot (he feels it's useless) and is
reprimanded by Rick.  The squadron is faced with a missile barrage.
Baker, with some fancy flying, manages to shake them off.  Rick,
however, is hit.  He is forced to ditch his fighter.  Baker dives to
his rescue.  He finds Rick in a life raft, but is told to get back
to the squadron.  Baker is about to pick up Rick in his Veritech's
hands when Zentraedi pods rise up out of the water, surrounding
Baker.  They open fire...

   Suddenly the scene changes.  Baker, a Cadet of the Robotech
Academy was in a trainer undergoing an exercise.  He is debriefed by
Major General Rick Hunter.  He dresses Baker down for not obeying
orders.  After Baker leaves, General Max Sterling converses with
Rick.  Max reminds Rick of a certain amateur pilot he once knew.
Rick agrees that Baker is a lot like he was many years ago.

   In a council chamber on Earth, Dr. Emil Lang and Exedore are
briefing all of the Earth's Defense Force leaders on the upcoming
mission.  Exedore explains that it is to be a diplomatic mission to
the third moon of Fantoma, called Tirol, the homeworld of the
Robotech Masters.  General Leonard complains that the departure of
the SDF-3 will leave the Earth defenseless.

   In a bridal shop, Lisa is trying on her wedding gown.  With her
are Miriya, Randi Grant (Claudia's sister), Bowie Grant, and Dana
Sterling.  Suddenly, Minmei enters the shop.  She explains that when
she heard about the wedding, she just had to see her.  She offers to
sing at their wedding.  Lisa gratefully accepts.

   On the planet Tirol, two scientists, Renn and Cabell (Renn is
young, Cabell is old) are watching troop carriers land near a mining
colony.  Renn says that since the Robotech Masters left, there are
only the sick and elderly available to fight the invaders.  They
watch the troop carriers disgorge an army of humanoid mecha and
cat-shaped robots.  Two Tirisians are killed to demonstrate the
invulnerability of the mecha, though NOT of the cats (one of the
characters dispatches some of them with a handgun).  Cabell believes
he knows who the invaders are -- the Invid.  The style of fighting
with drones and the general shape match.  But, he says, the drones
must have a central power source.  If it can be knocked out, all the
drones will be immobilized.  Bioroids try to fight off the invaders,
but they too fall to the drones.

   The Invid Leader arrives on board his flagship.  He receives a
report that there is no sign of the Robotech Masters on the planet.
He also receives a voice transmission from his wife, the Regis, who
disagrees with his plan.  He can hardly wait to hear it. (Heavy
sarcasm)

   On the way to the shuttle which will take them to the Robotech
Repair Factory, some of Rick's friends notice that he is moping
around.  They arrive at the SDF-3, which is to be disguised as a
Zentraedi battlecruiser.  Though he has doubts about this scheme,
Rick realizes that he has no choice anymore.  The plan must go on.
Privately, Rick questions himself about his right to command all
these people and whether he deserves Lisa. (Flashback)

   Exedore continues to brief the leaders aboard the SDF-3.  He says
that the Tirisians are generally peaceful. (NOTE: Apparently the
Robotech Masters are different from the Tirisians in general) The
crew of the SDF-3 will be selected, beginning tomorrow.

   Cadet Baker is met by Col. Edwards.  Edwards, believing Rick
unfit for the command, and perhaps wanting more glory for himself,
tries to enlist Baker to his cause.

   Breetai meets them on the SDF-3.  He is now seems like a father
figure now that he has been micronized.  Exedore recounts the
history of protoculture and of the Zentraedi.

   Renn and Cabell realize that the Invid are searching for the
Flower of Life.  But since the Robotech Masters took all of it when
they left for Earth, the Invid will never find it on Tirol, even if
they tore the planet apart.  Cabell remarks that no one accused the
Invid of being logical, only thorough.  But, they have noticed that
certain indigenous creatures seem to react to the presence of the
Invid.  Cabell postulates a biogenetic link between the two.  They
leave their research institute to try to capture a cat-drone.  They
try an electric net, but the drone breaks free.  Cabell would have
died had not Renn been able to fly an (empty) Invid shock trooper
and destroy the drone.

   The Invid Leader is told that there are no signs of the Flower of
Life.  The Regis, claiming that she is higher on the evolutionary
scale, tells the Leader that he should be following the trace of
Zor's battlecruiser.  Then she leaves him.

   In space, Max and Karen Pan are testing the Alpha/Beta
prototypes.  They go through an undocking transformation to
Battloid.  Upon redocking, Karen's Alpha is damaged and begins to
re-enter.  Max manages to save her.  Karen's father, Harry Pan, a
leader of Earth's Defense Force, objects to Karen's being a test
pilot.  She, however, WILL be a pilot.  Dr. Lang confirms her
appointment to the SDF-3 as a pilot.

   The Invid Leader sends a crony to Tirol with orders to find the
Flower of Life.  First, however, the Invid will assault the capital
of Tirol to force the inhabitants to tell him where the Robotech
Masters and the Flower have gone.

   With crew selection 70% complete, an officer tells Rick of his
suspicions about Col. Edwards.

   Baker, undergoing his exams, receives an invitation to the
wedding and an appointment to the crew of the SDF-3.

   Max finally confronts Rick about his attitude.  Rick claims
exhaustion from his duties and the responsibility of command.  Col.
Edwards breaks in, loudly protests comments behind his back and
claims total loyalty.  He is waved away with assurances from Rick.

   Lisa thinks about their 9-year engagement.  She wonders how she
could have fooled herself all this time -- Rick still loves Minmei.
(Flashback)

   Rick talks with Lisa.  Rick is concerned about leaving the Earth
and about their marriage.  Lisa jokes that he's had 9 years to think
about them both.  Rick reassures her that he is okay, just
concerned.

   Renn and Cabell discover a positive link between the creatures
and the Invid.

   It is the day of the wedding.  Rick and Max have some fun with
Rick's bowtie.  In the audience, Minmei tells Janice (Jan Morris?)
about her "wedding" with Rick. (Flashback) Janice tells Minmei that
it's no use thinking about "what could have been"'s.

   The Invid make their assault on the capital of Tirol.  Prisoners
are to be taken for inquisition.  The bioroids and defense guns are
of no use.  Renn and Cabell abandon the institute to the catacombs
beneath it.  They vow revenge on the Invid.

   In a prison, the Invid Leader questions some of the prisoners.
They claim that the Robotech Masters left with all of the Flower of
Life and that they do not know where they have gone.  The Leader
believes that they are telling him the truth and rewards them with a
time bomb.

   The wedding ceremony is underway.  Breetai, acting as Lisa's
father, gives her away to Rick.  Max is Rick's best man (Is Miriya
Lisa's Maid of Honor?  We never get to see).  Bowie is the
Ringbearer, Dana follows Lisa's train.  The ceremony itself is very
short ("With this ring I thee wed...")  Scene with Lisa feeding Rick
from the cake (I won't tell you if she smashes some in his face or
not).

   Minmei and Janice sing a song as Rick and Lisa Hunter dance their
first dance as man and wife.  (NOTE: When I watched this, I could
hear Reba West's voice.  When I listened to the audio tape I had
made, I couldn't hear her.  The credits list the wedding song as
sung by Sunny Hilden(sp?).  Presumably Reba West also sang it)

   At the reception, Col. Jonathan Wolfe meets Minmei, claiming that
he's always wanted to meet her.  Minmei begs off any conversation
with him.

   Jack Baker meets Karen Pan.  There is a definite possibility of a
love interest here.

   Lisa throws the bouquet.  Minmei catches it. (NOTE: Too bad Rick
doesn't get to throw Lisa's garter.  Guess the censors wouldn't like
what Rick would have to do to take it off.  Heh, heh!)  She realizes
that she has finally lost Rick forever.  She thinks that she must
get on living the rest of her life.  Rick and Lisa leave for their
5-hour honeymoon.  (The SDF-3 launches then)

   In her own "ship", the Regis contemplates her plan.  She will
travel to and activate the sensor nebula and wait for any traces of
protoculture.  Then she will attack and retrieve the lost Flowers of
Life.

THE END

Final notes:
   The Regis' plan as stated contrasts greatly with her plan in the
Mospaeda segment.  I guess she changed her mind later.
   There was a lot of stuff garnered from other sources.  The
simulator is a lot like the one in Star Trek II.  Baker's line, "I
don't think it was a fair test of my abilities" is almost exact to
Saavik's.  The scene with the first two Tirisians is taken from the
Star Trek episode "Friday's Child".  Cabell looks a lot like one of
the Elders from Heavy Metal.  There is a Captain Harlock clone in
one throw-away shot.
   In general, the animation is so-so.  All of the characters look a
lot different than they did.  It is 9 years later, but still....
Lisa now sports an asymmetric hair style.

Final impressions:
   Not great, but not bad either.  It's nice to see (and hear) more
of the characters.  But, something seems missing.  Some vital spark
or such.  It just doesn't have the same intensity or feeling as the
original (especially the Macross segment).

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 07:09:49 GMT
From: ames!styx!oodis01!uplherc!esunix!rushfort@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin
From: Rushforth)
Subject: ST:TNG (Really Patrick Stewart's other roles)

Someone posted an article a while back (sorry, I lost the reference)
asking what part Patrick Stewart* played in the movies Excalibur and
Dune.  I just watched Excalibur again, and Patrick Stewart played
Leondegrance, Guenevere's father, the first knight who became loyal
to King Arthur.  In Dune, he played Gurney Halleck, Paul Atreides'
trainer and friend.  I was impressed with his performance in both
movies, although his part was minor in Excalibur.

* - For those who don't know by now, Patrick Stewart will play Capt.
    Jean-Luc Picard in Star Trek: The Next Generation

Kevin C. Rushforth
Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
UUCP:   {ihnp4,ucbvax,decvax,allegra}!decwrl!esunix!rushfort
        {ihnp4,seismo}!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!esunix!rushfort
        seismo!usna!esunix!rushfort

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 03:48:11 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: SF Movie Quiz

About three month ago Mark Rossner ran a film trivia quiz.  I
entered it without any warning what responsibilties would go with
doing well.  I got first place and THEN Mark told me that this meant
I had to run the next trivia quiz.  Hmmph!  Well, this is the
promised trivia quiz.  The following quiz I have been obliged to
run.  The following were all invented by scriptwriters for science
fiction films.  For each you must identify the film and identify
what the word or phrase refers to.

 1. Alec McEwen Expedition
 2. Anti-Matter Cannon
 3. Bellerophon
 4. Binary Load Lifters
 5. Bloodrust
 6. Brundlefly
 7. Caprona
 8. Cargonite
 9. Cosmostrator
10. Degenerol
11. Duocaine
12. Infinitely-Indexed Memory Bank
13. Interociter
14. Kohlinar
15. Markolite
16. Metaluna
17. Mynocks
18. Operation Skyhook
19. Oxygen Destroyer
20. Planet Zira
21. Portable Reactor
22. Power X
23. Report on a Biological Imbalance in an Upland Arizona Valley
24. Rhodosaurus
25. Shiraishi Report

I expect that there are some entries there that large numbers of
people will recognize and some that nobody will recognize.  Valid
responses are those that reach me in June.  I will grade your papers
and announce who did the best some time around Independence Day.  In
the meantime you are on the honor system.  You can look in books but
do not look on anyone else's paper.  Pocket calculators will be
allowed, but are unlikely to do you any good.  Good luck.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

[Moderator's Note:  Please send all responses directly to the
poster.  Winners and answers will be announced in mid-July.]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 1987  10:16 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: Rodney Elin <KL791C%GWUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Mel Brooks (was Asimov's Mega-ology)

Mel Brooks is indeed doing a SW takeoff, _Space Balls_ in which he
plays the part of Yogurt, Master of the Schwartz.  That's about all
I know other than that one of the villians is named Dark Helmet (he
uses the Schwartz to find a helmet that fits) and another is named
Pizza-The-Hut.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 21:44:14 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE

From:   sunybcs!ansley  (William H. Ansley)
> ...This film is a rock & roll version of the Phantom of the Opera
> with elements of the Faust legend thrown in.

Actually, it's more akin to Oscar Wilde's THE PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY
than FAUST.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Jun 87 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #282
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 87 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #282
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 282

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anderson & Chandler & Ellison &
                      Foster & Gibson & Leiber & Morris &
                      Niven & Pratchett & Sturgeon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 04:30:29 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Poul Anderson

> From: thumper!mike    (Mike Caplinger)
> Has anyone ever seen this anywhere except in the original, I think
> it was GALAXY, magazine printing?  As far as I can tell, it's the
> only Polesotechnic League/Terran Empire story that hasn't been
> collected somewhere or another.

It originally appeared in PLANET STORIES (Jan 1952). And you're
right --- it *is* the only Technic History story that hasn't been
reprinted anywhere.

From:   sci!daver       (David Rickel)
> krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) writes:
>> I enjoyed Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos".  Was it part of a
>> series?
> Loosely.  _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, _A Midsummer Tempest_,
> and _Operation Chaos_ all appear to be in the same meta-universe.
> There are some short stories that take place there also--these
> short stories involve the House between Worlds (a tavern connected
> to various timelines).

Well, I wouldn't exactly say that the three novels are part of the
same series or "meta-universe". The conceit of the Old Phoenix
(that's the name of the tavern you mention) is that it's a place
where characters from any universe can meet up with each other. If
you read the Old Phoenix scenes carefully, you can find various
other characters. It's been a while since I read either story
featuring the OP, but I seem to recall Nick van Rijn being described
in one scene, for example.

Outside of A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST, there's only one story that features
the old Phoenix: "House Rule", which first appeared in the
collection HOMEBREW (a limited edition book published by NESFA for
the Boskone at which Anderson was GoH) and later appeared in the
paperback collection FANTASY.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 08:21:52 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Raymond Chandler Fantasy

From: Boebert@mit-multics.arpa
> Raymond Chandler (a mystery writer of note) supposedly wrote a
> group of fantasy stories near the end of his life.  Did these ever
> get published anywhere?

I know of only two fantasy stories written by Raymond Chandler.  The
first, "The Bronze Door" was published in UNKNOWN, Nov 1939, and
reprinted in F&SF, Oct 1953. The other,, "Professor Bingo's Snuff"
first appeared in PARK-EAST MAGAZINE, July/Aug 1951, and reprinted
in FANTASTIC, Summer 1952. To my knowledge, neither of these stories
have been collected.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: BLOOD'S A ROVER (was re: Many things about Harlan Ellison)
Date: 12 Jun 87 12:15:26 GMT

From:   venera.isi.edu!galloway (Tom Galloway)
> Blood's A Rover: This was announced back in '80/'81 and a cover
> was commissioned. It was to include A Boy and His Dog, Eggsucker,
> and another story who's title I forget. Eggsucker, and I believe
> the other story, appeared about that time in a book/magazine
> called Ariel.

The third story was "Run, Spot, Run". It first appeared in Jim
Steranko's magazine MEDIASCENE in 1980, and was reprinted in
AMAZING, Jan 1981. "Eggsucker" did indeed appear in ARIEL (Volume 2)
and was reprinted in a British anthology, THE SAVOY BOOK (edited by
David Britton).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 19:15:28 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Spellsinger Series

From:   WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu   (John White)
> As I heard it (on some pannel at a con from ADF himself), the
> first two books of the series (Spellsinger and The Hour of the
> Gate) were originally one book.  The publisher cut it into two,
> and I believe that they didn't even tell anyone on the cover of
> the first edition that it was the first of two.  ADF wasn't happy
> about the split, but it wasn't up to him.

As a matter of fact, these first two books were originally published
as a single limited edition hardcover by Phantasia Press under the
title SPELLSINGER AT THE GATE. It was the later paperback edition
that split it in two.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 May 87 07:53 EDT
From: SJONES%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Hacking the ice in _Burning Chrome_

I hate to bring up old discussions, but back around the end of April
there was discussion as to the origins of the term ice for
electronic security measures. I don't recall if an answer was ever
posted (please mail it!), but I was stuck reading this back issue
due to the way SF-Lovers is digested and stored on our system and
remembered something I'd read in _Omni_ a long time back. I
proceeded to rummage through stacks of magazines...

The story was by one William Gibson in the July '82 issue. The term
ice was attributed to the acronym (sp?) ICE, Intrusion
Countermeasures Electronics which term was not then attributed to
anything else. I recall someone on the net came close - come over
sometime, I'll give you a Cupie Doll (for real trivia - where'd that
one come from, and how do you spell it?)

This particular story is really quite good, though I haven't read
anything else that I remember by Gibson, and is set in the same kind
of future noire as _Bladerunner_, et al (had to use the favorite).
Some interesting social asides including designer replacement parts
such as eyes for the jet set socialite.  I also came across alot of
other good stuff in _Omni_ while I went through them moldering
oldies. Is the fiction and pseudo-science still as good?  Financial
considerations (good bureaucratic term) forced me to drop the
subscription during high school, but I'd be interested in opinions.
Just hated to see a loose end dangling at 4 in the morning...

Steve Jones
BITNET:  sjones@umass
CSNET:   sjones%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP:    ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!sjones
INTERNET:sjones%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
USnail: box 753; Hampshire College; Amherst, MA  01002

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 05:39:00 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Fritz Leiber

From:   adt@eagle.ukc.ac.uk     (A.D.Thomas)
>     On the subject of one off Fafhred and the Grey Mouser stories
> I remember one called The_Two_Best_Thieves_In_Lankhmar where the
> dynamic duo get ripped off by two female thieves. I can't remember
> where it appeared, possbily in an anthology of S&S stories called
> The_Barbarian_Swordsmen.

Well, there was no anthology called THE BARBARIAN SWORDSMEN, though
there were two companion anthologies edited by Hans Stefan Santesson
called THE MIGHTY BARBARIANS and THE MIGHTY SWORDSMEN. Neither had
that Leiber story in it, though the former had another F&GM story,
"When the Sea-King's Away", in it. "The Two Best Thieves in
Lankhmar" appeared in one of the F&GM collections anyways, SWORDS
AGAINST WIZARDRY.

From:   Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
> Rolf Howarth asked if there were any Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories
> other than "the six 'Swords' books". Well, I don't know if this
> story eventually appeared in one of those books, but I just
> happened to have recently finished reading a 1974 DAW paperback
> called THE BOOK OF FRITZ LEIBER, which consists of stories
> selected by Leiber which had not been published or anthologized in
> other readily-available sources, and which has an introduction by
> Leiber discussing the publishing history of each item. One of
> these is a short-short (only 2 pages of text!) called "Beauty and
> the Beasts", with Fafhrd and the Mouser, which the intro describes
> as "especially written for this book". (Maybe this is a rare
> collectible, the only source of this ever printed? ...)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the story was reprinted in SWORDS
AND ICE MAGIC.

> This brings up a question about this book which occurred to me as
> I was reading it. Maybe jayembee or another bibliographic expert
> can say just what the publishing history of this story was, and
> reduce my confusion: This book includes a story in Leiber's
> "Change War" series, titled "Knight to Move". Leiber's intro
> (remember, this is vintage 1974) states, "It previously saw light
> only in the excellent girlie magazine BROADSIDE." However, as I
> read this story, I clearly and distinctly recalled having read it
> before, and I never have seen a magazine called "Broadside"! I
> don't think I've read much Leiber later than 1974, so it is
> doubtful that I read it in some other anthology during this past
> decade ... I am next to positive that I read that story sometime
> *BEFORE* 1974, but the author himself states that it was not
> published in anything I would have read during that timeframe! So
> I am really confused... Any explanations? (I suppose Leiber could
> simply have been wrong...)

No, he wasn't wrong. That particular story has appeared in two other
Leiber collections: THE CHANGE WAR (Gregg Press, 1978) and CHANGEWAR
(Ace, 1983). You *must* have read one of those two, and just didn't
remember it.

Anyways, to answer the original question, the following are Fafhrd &
Gray Mouser stories that didn't appear in the five F&GM collections:

HEROES AND HORRORS      [Fritz Leiber]

   "Sea Magic"  (from THE DRAGON, Dec 1977)
   "The Mer She"        (original to this collection)

HEROIC VISIONS          [ed. by Jessica Amanda Salmonson]

   "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars"

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 15:24:27 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!news@RUTGERS.EDU (UNIX
From: Netnews)
Subject: Re: Book request...

katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky) writes:
> These books are sometimes hard to find, but the few people I have
> met who have heard of them, rave about them as much as I.  They
> represent very different styles of fantasy writing.
>
> 1) _The_Worm_Ouroborus_ (sp?) by E.R. Eddison. Filled with the
> moral and

OK.  So we're getting into (relative) esoterica here.  For a
predecessor of today's fantasy genre, William Morris is well worth a
look.  His books, written around 1899, are

   The Well at the World's End (two volumes)
   The Water of the Wondrous Isles
   The Sundering Flood
   News from Nowhere.

While the last veers towards picturing a socialist utopia (Morris, a
member of the pre-Raphaelite brotherhood, played a prominent path in
the 19th century arts & crafts movement, and was a tireless crusader
for socialism), the others are straight fantasy in a medieval
milieu.  Some may find the fact that they're written in
pseudo-medieval English off-putting.  No, not the stuff you get in
the Canterbury tales, or Morte d'Artur, but definitely not Victorian
English.

All were in paperback print at the beginning of the seventies when,
following the success of _Lord of the Rings_, all sorts of unlikely
stuff was dusted off.  Ballantine published the first two on the
list; the others came from smaller houses.

In my opinion (and, as an engineer, I'm uniquely qualified to
comment), Morris influenced both Tolkien and C S Lewis.  The fact
that they were Oxford dons and that Morris studied in Oxford a
century earlier may or may not be relevant...

Dominic Dunlop
domo@sphinx.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 20:39:10 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

>Do people have suggestions as to which book one should recommend to
>a friend interested in trying sf at least once?

  I highly recommend Footfall by Larry Niven for a first timer.  It
is set in the near future, in this universe, on this planet, and you
don't have to suspend belief in much in order to accept what's
happenning in the book.  I thought it was great.  According to Niven
(we talked to him at a book signing) he and Pourenelle wrote
themselves in as two of the sf writes the government gets together
to try and anticipate the aliens.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 13 June 1987 12:42:07
Subject: The Colour of Magic, Terry Pratchett    *** Mild Spoilers ***
From: ARP11%CAM.PHX%UK.AC.CAM.ENG-ICF@ac.uk

How many people out there have read any of Terry Pratchett's books ?
He has written a series starting with "The Colour of Magic" and
continuing from there.  He has also written a number of other books
including one called "Strata" that I only came across a couple of
weeks ago.  His writing style seems very light and is easy to read.
His descriptive power is so powerful that you do not actually notice
it.  The world he creates for us is based around the flat earth
supported on four elephants that are standing on the back of a
turtle swimming through space.  The story revolves around the first
tourist to visit the country and his companion wizard Rincewind, who
together basically bumble from one situation into the next.  The
sketches in the book are very funny and consistent, often based
around parts of the real world.  Side items such as the difference
in the exchange rate and a real death only serve to amuse the reader
even further.  A quick quote:

"Magic never dies, it merely fades away.
    Nowhere is this more evident than on the wide blue expanse of
the diskworld than in those areas that had been the scene of the
great battles of the Mage wars, which had happened shortly after
Creation.  Magic in its raw state had been widely available, and had
been eagerly used by the first Men in their war against the Gods.
    The precise origins of the Mage Wars have been lost in the fogs
of Time, but the disc philosophers agree that the first Men, shortly
after their creation, understandably lost their temper.  And great
and pyrotechnic were the battles that followed - [etc ... ]

"... and much of the old wild magic was sucked out of the earth.
" That did not solve the problem of those places on the disc which,
during the Mage wars, had suffered a direct hit by a spell.  The
magic faded away - slowly, over the millenia, releasing as it
decayed myriads of sub-astral particles that severely distorted the
reality around it ..."

The two wanderers then go off and meet dragons and see the rim-falls
etc.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 14:05:03 GMT
From: hugo@GNOME.CS.CMU.EDU (Peter Su)
Subject: Wanted: Anything by Theodore Sturgeon

Okay, okay, I've had enough!

I've been trying to locate works by this guy for years and years,
and I've loved everything I've ever read by him, but the truth is, I
just don't what what he's done.  So anyway, is there any kind soul
out there that has the comprehensive all knowing list of Sturgeon
works that are in print, out of print, or even never printed?  Does
anyone have little clues as to where to find more of his stuff?

I really want to get another copy of _More Than Human_, I had one,
but I lost it (oh shame!).  Seems to me it was a Penguin Classic
thingy, do they still make that one?

thanks,
Pete
ARPA: hugo@gnome.cs.cmu.edu
UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,ihnp4,cmucspt}!hugo@gnome.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Jun 87 0959-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #283
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 87 0959-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #283
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 283

Today's Topics:

                Television - Doctor Who (11 msgs) &
                             _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 05:38:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!trekker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Dr. Who queries

   The local PBS station started showing Dr. Who episodes from the
first season with Tom Baker earlier this year, and I've thought some
of the recent ones they've been showing like "Face of Evil" were
pretty good.  They seem to be better when they don't have stories
where a guy in a monster suit staggers around stomping on cardboard
minitures or strangling bad actors.  They've gotta do something
about that costume designer, though.  He or she seems to create the
gaudiest, goofiest outfits, I've ever seen.  They needed someone
like William Theiss from the Star Trek series.  Now that lad could
design costumes.  Especially for the female guest stars!
   Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few
changes I never saw the cause of.
   1.  Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with
       Doctor?

   2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?

   3.  Why are there no female timelords?

   4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked out
       monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written?

BUCC2!trekker
Bradley University
Peoria, IL

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 14:34:29 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

>The local PBS station started showing Dr. Who episodes from the
>first season...
>that lad could design costumes.  Especially for the female guest
>stars!
>   Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few
>changes I never saw the cause of.
>   1.  Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with
>       Doctor?

The Doctor received a call from Gallifrey ( turns out to have been a
ruse by the Master to get the Doctor into trouble) and he could not
take Sarah with him, so he dropped her off on Earth and off he went.

>   2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?

It didn't get remodeled.  What you see is the OLD control room,
which the Doctor and Sarah stumbled upon.  I assume it was the
control room from the Troughton days, as there was a recorder
flitting about ( one of Doctor #2's trademarks).

>   3.  Why are there no female timelords?

There are, or at least will be (was ?). I recall female Timelords in
the Davison and Colin Baker episodes.

>   4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked out
>       monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written?

Don't know on this one, I've never read any.

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 14:07:17 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
>>   2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodled?
> It didn't get remodeled.  What you see is the OLD control room,
> which the Doctor and Sarah stumbled upon.  I assume it was the
> control room from the Traughton days, as there was a recorder
> flitting about ( one of Doctor #2's trademarks).

 (note name spelling)

I never saw that control room in the Troughton episodes. His room
looked much like it did with the thing in the middle going up and
down (time rotor I believe it is called). Then again, I only saw his
5 existing complete storys. In The Two Doctors (a CBaker story), the
Doctor (Troughton) had a console much like T.Baker (When he first
starts, not the alternate room w/o rotor stumbled accidentally
upon).

>>3.  Why are there no female timelords?
> There are, or at least will be (was ?). I recall female Timelords
> in the Davison and Colin Baker episodes.

His next companion after Leela is a female Timelord. (Romana...) You
even get to see her regenerate.

John Langbein
ARPA: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu
UUCP: !rutgers!topaz!langbein
Phone: 1-<201>-932-3129 (work)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 21:22:47 GMT
From: moss!inuxd!jody@RUTGERS.EDU (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

>    Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few
>changes I never saw the cause of.
> 1.  Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with
>     Doctor?

As I remember, The Doctor's adventures took them close enough to her
home and time that she stayed.  I don't remember what show it was
but near the end of the first season with Tom Baker.

>    2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?

All I remember is that they added a ramdomizer (sp?) to prevent the
Black Guardian from finding them and then there was redecoration.

>    3.  Why are there no female timelords?

Technically there is, Romana is a timelord.  However, the show has
never to my rememberings, explained why the women stay home and be
part of the council.

>    4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked out
>        monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written?

I don't know, I only paged through them in the store and didn't feel
the need to buy one.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 02:08:05 GMT
From: welty@sundown.steinmetz (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])

>   4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked out
>       monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly written?

They read like translations of scripts into novelizations (not
suprisingly).  Could be worth it to some to pick up novelizations of
some of the missing episodes, though.

Richard Welty
CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM
Internet:  welty@ge-crd.ARPA
Usenet:    {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 11:49:39 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Sorry, but Re: Dr. Who queries

> From: jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross)
>>    Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few
>> changes I never saw the cause of.
>>    1.  Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with
>>        Doctor?
>
> As I remember, The Doctor's adventures took them close enough to
> her home and time that she stayed.  I don't remember what show it
> was but near the end of the first season with Tom Baker.

No. The Doctor was re-called to Gallifrey. He could not bring Sarah
Jane with him, since it would be dangerous. I also think they don't
like aliens in the Penaptagon.

>>    2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?
>
> All I remember is that they added a ramdomizer (sp?) to prevent
> the Black Guardian from finding them and then there was
> redecoration.

Well, the tardis had been remodled several times over the years, but
the remodeling referred to here is the alternate control room
stumbled upon by the Doctor and Sarah Jane.

>>    3.  Why are there no female timelords?
> Technically there is, Romana is a timelord.  However, the show has
> never to my rememberings, explained why the women stay home and be
> part of the council.

There are a bunch of MAle Chaevenist Pigs there :->. Seriously,
there are women in the race there, but Timelord is more of a title.
Again, a certain level must be obtained. Not a spoiler, but the
Inquisitor in the Trial of a Timelord was a woman, and probably a
Timelord of rather High standing.

>>    4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked
>>        out monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly
>>        written?
>
> I don't know, I only paged through them in the store and didn't
> feel the need to buy one.

I don't know, but if it is a missing episode, I might just try it.

John Langbein

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 12:16:54 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU (The Prime Minister)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
>   4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked out
>       monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly
>       written?
>       Don't know on this one, I've never read any.

Well, I have.

I find the books on stories I've seen to be moderately interesting,
with variable quality.  Yes, they are "cranked out" monthly, but by
a collection of many writers.  (It used to be Terrance Dicks who did
so!)  Some are quite well written, adding something to the story
which may have been lost in filming.  The bad ones are just
re-writes of the scripts.

When I first started reading the novels (1981!) it seemed like the
US may never get the older stuff, so I was reading just to see the
stories.  (And that is still the case with the older "missing"
episodes!)  Then, they are definitely worthwhile, even the ones with
weaker writing.  Now, Target (the publisher) is having as many of
the old stories written as they can.  The only blocks are the Dalek
stories and the Douglas Adams stories, both apparently contract
problems.  For the Peter Davison era, the only book not written is
"Ressurection of the Daleks", for Tom Baker, "City of Death", "The
Pirate Planet", and "Shada".

It is hard to say which book is the best, there are a number of good
ones.

It is VERY EASY to say which is worst!  (This wasn't true a few
weeks ago!)  It must be "Slipback" by Eric Saward.  This is the only
novelisation that I couldn't finish.  BAD BAD BAD.  Avoid if at
all possible.

There is starting a series of books on the other adventures of
companions.  These are not too bad, but certainly not canonical.

James C. Armstrong, Jnr.
(nicmad,ulysses,ihnp4)!terminus!nyssa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 14:32:18 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

   But seriously. I have never seen any Troughton episodes.  I
assumed the control room was from that era due to the presence of a
recorder ( a lot of stills I have seen of Troughton's Doctor has him
with it ) in that room.  Perhaps it is the control room from the
first Doctor.  I have never seen any of these episodes either, so
again this is speculation.  The Doctor does tell SJS that it is an
old control room that he hasn't used in a long time.  (I especially
like the shaving mirror on the top.)
   I can only claim temporary memory bank failure for forgetting
about Romana.  She is indeed the first female Timelord I remember
seeing.

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 17:40:58 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
>   But seriously. I have never seen any Troughton episodes.  I
> assumed the control room was from that era due to the presence of
> a recorder ( a lot of stills I have seen of Troughton's Doctor has
> him with it ) in that room.  Perhaps it is the control room from
> the first Doctor.  I have never seen any of these episodes either,
> so again this is speculation.  The Doctor does tell SJS that it is
> an old control room that he hasn't used in a long time.  (I
> especially like the shaving mirror on the top.)

Seriously, Hartnell never had a control room like that in the
existing episodes. The same is for Troughton. Though the 1st season
of Troughton is missing, hints lead me to believe the room was not
like that then. Maybe it's from Pre-Chesterton days, You know,
before the Series began? I tend to think it a JN-T Inconsistency.
:-> Even if it was before his time, It was his fault! :->

John Langbein
ARPA: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu
UUCP: !rutgers!topaz!langbein
Phone: 1-<201>-932-3129 (work)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 08:15:33 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>>   3.  Why are there no female timelords?
>       There are, or at least will be (was ?). I recall female
>Timelords in the Davison and Colin Baker episodes.

Don't forget, Ramona (sp?), who travelled with the Tom Baker Doctor
through 2 regenerations, was also a Timelord.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 12:14:37 GMT
From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks)
Subject: Dr.Who Changes

Warning - Contains Minor Spoilers
>  2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?
>
>  3.  Why are there no female timelords?

As I remember (these episodes are over 10 years old and I haven't
seen them since the initial broadcast), the Tardis interior has NOT
been remodeled, the Doctor simply started using another Control
Room.  The Tardis interior is in fact of infinite extent (It may be
a different dimension), and has infinitely many rooms, many of which
are control rooms. I don't think even the doctor knows what's in
there!!!

There ARE female Timelords (Timeladies ???). One (called Romana)
worked for a few seasons as the Doctor's sidekick, and even went
through a regeneration/metamorphosis. She was played initially by
Mary Tamm (as in the Odessa File) and then by an actress whose name
slips my mind but who is now, I think, Mrs. Tom Baker.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 87 19:22:04 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: SF on _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_

I saw an SF episode of _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ last night (circa
1960, half hour), starring Steve McQueen and Arthur Hill.  It was
pretty well done, though it was predictable.  It turned out to be
based on a Frederic Brown story, "The Last Martian".  I like Brown's
stories but I don't think I have read this one (though if I did long
ago, that might explain why it was predictable to me).  A Brown
story was also adapted for Star Trek, which made me wonder ...  who
in SF has had the most stories adapted for TV shows?  I am excluding
stories and scripts written specifically for a TV show by SF
authors; rather I am talking of published stories later adapted (by
the author or someone else).

Incidentally, I really enjoy the old Hitchcock series.  Hitchcock
often got together a bunch of English character actors, such as a
young Denholm Elliot, to do an old fashioned kind of English story.
He also got some famous actors from the 30s or 40s, like Franchot
Tone or Claude Raines, to perform on TV.  And occasionally the
stories are really good.

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 05:31:14 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF on ALFRED HITCHCOCK PRESENTS

From:   cc5.bbn.com!levin
> I saw an SF episode of _Alfred Hitchcock Presents_ last night
> (circa 1960, half hour), starring Steve McQueen and Arthur Hill.
> It was...  based on a Frederic Brown story, "The Last
> Martian"....A Brown story was also adapted for Star Trek, which
> made me wonder ...  who in SF has had the most stories adapted for
> TV shows?  I am excluding stories and scripts written specifically
> for a TV show by SF authors; rather I am talking of published
> stories later adapted (by the author or someone else).

Good question. I'm not sure that I could come up with a definitive
answer. I can come up with a likely list of candidates, though. In
each of these cases, the author in question wrote a lot of
screenplays, and likely adapted much of his work in the process.

Charles Beaumont
Robert Bloch    *
Fredric Brown   *
Roald Dahl      **
Richard Matheson
Jerry Sohl

*  Since I have Bloch and Brown bibliographies handy, I can
   tell you that each has had about 30 stories adapted for tv
   (the number of Brown stories is questionable, since the
   bibliographer listed stories for which sales were noted in
   Brown's records, but it's not clear that they were actually
   produced).

** Most, if not all, of the stories on the British tv show
   [ROALD DAHL'S] TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED were adapted from
   Dahl's stories. Then again, I'm not sure of what percentage
   were sf/fantasy.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Jun 87 1024-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #284
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 87 1024-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #284
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 284

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Lovecraft (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 20:11:58 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

Hello:
   I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could make
suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in reading
his works.  There seems to be a lot of short story collections but I
don't want to wade through all of that to get to the good stories.
Any help would be appreciated!

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349
UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 14:08:01 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Lovecraft recommendations (reply)

hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes:
>    I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could
> make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in
> reading his works.  There seems to be a lot of short story
> collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to
> the good stories.  Any help would be appreciated!

Basically, you have to make a choice based on your tastes.  Like
dream-like fantasy?  Read his earlier stories.  Like horror stories?
Read his later ones.

The best of his fantasies include "The Cats of Ulthar", "The Doom
That Came to Sarnath", "The Strange High House in the Mist", and
"The White Ship".

The best of his horror stories include "The Call of Cthulhu", "The
Dunwich Horror", "The Shadow over Innsmouth", "The Colour out of
Space", "Pickman's Model", "The Shadow out of Time", and "The
Statement of Randolph Carter".

Some of his "revisions" (ghost-writing for other authors) are pretty
good, too.  I especially like "The Curse of Yig" and "The Mound".

This is all from memory and so is in no way complete.  I'll say more
by private e-mail, if you want.

And wait until you get to the *other* authors who've contributed to
the Cthulhu Mythos!

I reread "The Festival" every Christmas Eve!  :-)

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 17:28:05 GMT
From: kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

A.G. Hirai writes:
>       I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft
> could make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should
> start in reading his works.  There seems to be a lot of short
> story collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to
> get to the good stories.  Any help would be appreciated!

I haven't read much Lovecraft since I was 13 or so, but I can
enthusiastically recommend *At the Mountains of Madness*, a
novellete/novella/noveloid (i.e., it's not too long a novel) about
an expedition to Antarctica that uncovers -- well, I won't say what.
The suspense in the first half of the book is almost unbearable!
It's great.

I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of
stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like
*Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*.  I thought this Cthulu stuff was
Lovecraft.  Can somebody explain?

Keith Waclena
University of Chicago Graduate Library School
1100 E. 57th Street, Chicago, Illinois   60637
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!kdw1
kdw1@sphinx.UChicago.{EDU,BITNET,MAILNET,CSNET}

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 23:11:05 GMT
From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

kdw1@sphinx.UUCP (Keith Waclena) writes:
>I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of
>stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like
>*Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*.  I thought this Cthulu stuff was
>Lovecraft.  Can somebody explain?

All of the storys in that book were previously published in the
original "Weird Tales".  Assumedly by Robert Howard.  They are based
on the Cthulhu mythos, but they don't all have the verbose flavour
of Lovecraft.  I recommend giving the book a read.  Some of the
storys in it have appeared in other CM collections over the years,
but not all of them have.

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 22:00:17 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!cccdoug@RUTGERS.EDU (Doug Jenner: UNIX guy)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes:
>   I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could
>make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in
>reading his works.  There seems to be a lot of short story
>collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to
>the good stories.  Any help would be appreciated!

Lovecraft cranked out a lot of short stories, most of which have
been compiled by August Derleth for Arkham House publishing.  By and
large, all of the stories are worth reading, but only if you have
been reading HPL for while, as most are rather bizarre.  To start,
the best is "The Call of Cthuthlu" (spelling?) which is the
foundation for the Elder Gods and all the other weirdness that goes
on in the other stories. "At the Mountains of Madness" is in my
opinion, the best of HPL's works, and is also one of the longest,
and is a good continuation of the background of the Gods.  After
reading those, you should be able to tackle just about anything HPL
wrote and enjoy it.  The following list is my suggest- ions, which
are not to be taken as definitive:

   1)  The Call of Cthuthlu
   2)  At the Mountains of Madness
   3)  Dunwich Horror
   4)  Shadow over Innsmouthe
   5)  Lurking Fear
   6)  Nights in the Witch House

 - plus some other stories not in the Elder Gods motif
   7)  The Silver Key
   8)  Beyond the Gates of the Silver Key
   9)  The Dream-Quest of the Unknown Kadath
  10)  The Cats of Ulthar

Again, however, I find that I like almost everything he wrote.
There are some stories which are just too weird to take, but even
those are good for reading because they show just how alien HPL's
thoughts really were.

Douglas Jenner
ARPA: ucdavis!deneb!cccdoug@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
BITNET: dljenner@ucdavis

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 13:41:06 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!mbrown@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Brown)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) says:
> I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of
> stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like
> *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*.  I thought this Cthulu stuff was
> Lovecraft.  Can somebody explain?

Several authors including Robert Howard and August Derleth wrote
books set in the Cthulhu Mythos developed by Lovecraft.  Derleth and
Lovecraft wrote several joint stories as well.

Mike Brown
Department of Computer Science
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29634-1906
(803)656-2838
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!mbrown
Internet: mbrown@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 13:23:51 GMT
From: katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) writes:
> A.G. Hirai writes:
>>      I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft
>> could make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should
>> start in reading his works.  There seems to be a lot of short
>> story collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to
>> get to the good stories.  Any help would be appreciated!
>
> I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of
> stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like
> *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*.  I thought this Cthulu stuff was
> Lovecraft.  Can somebody explain?

SUMMARY/POSSIBLE SPOILER(?)

   H.P. Lovecraft wrote a few stories all based on the premise that
Earth was inhabited first by these horrific powerful demon-like
creatures who were not originally of this world.  Cthulu was their
high priest/leader. They predated humans however there are evidence
of humans worshipping them at one point in history (in the stories,
that is :) ).  These creatures are intelligent and malevolent, and
their periods of wakefulness are tied to the turning of the stars,
which explains why we in our age are not disturbed by them (most of
us anyway).  One of the most common elements is a book called the
Necronomicon that keeps popping up in these stories.  ITS OVER. YOU
CAN COME OUT NOW.
   Lovecraft wrote a number of these stories, and then several other
authors use the same genre, e.g. August Derleth.  I believe that
Lovecraft knew of and approved of this during his own lifetime, but
I'm not sure.  I used to have the two volume set called
_Tales_of_the_Cthulu_Mythos_ which had stories by several authors
including Lovecraft.  Perhaps this is what you mean.
   By the way A.G., I don't know if you are aware, but Cordwainer
Bird Library has a number of Lovecraft books (perhaps you saw them
and that's why you asked in the first place).  If you come find me
some time, I can point out my favorites although I do not remember
the titles.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 15:01:53 GMT
From: seismo!sun!apple!winter@RUTGERS.EDU (Patty Winter)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

BTW, the hardcore Lovecraft fans among us may wish to know that the
University of California at Santa Barbara has a stash of HPL books
in its closed stacks. I spent a nice afternoon there once reading
them. As far as I know, they include stories that haven't shown up
in print for a long time. Somewhere I have a list.....

Patty Winter
(408) 973-2814
Apple Computer, Inc.
20525 Mariani Ave., Cupertino, CA 95014
{decwrl,nsc,sun,dual}!apple!winter

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 23:48:38 GMT
From: mhnadel@gryphon.cts.com (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

A.G. Hirai writes:
>kdw1@sphinx.UUCP (Keith Waclena) writes:
>>    I was wondering whether anyone who have read Lovecraft could
>> make suggestions or pointers as to where a person should start in
>> reading his works.  There seems to be a lot of short story
>> collections but I don't want to wade through all of that to get to
>> the good stories.  Any help would be appreciated!

Well, I recently reread the Lovecraft I have and some of my favorite
stories include:

Pickwick's Model
Cold Air
Dagon
The Lurking Fear
At the Mountains of Madness

I find that virtually all of his stories are very effective for
inducing fear=related insomnia and it's hard to go wrong.  The major
distinction to be made is between the stories associated with the
Cthulhu mythos (in the above list only "Dagon" is) and the
non-Cthulhu stories.  It might be less confusing to start with the
non-Cthulhu stories and see if you like them.  By the way, both
"Pickwick's Model" and "Cold Air" were dramatized for episodes of
"Night Gallery" and I first encountered "Pickwick's Model" (and
Lovecraft for that matter) in a D.C. comic book some years ago
(though I can't recall which one.)

>I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of
>stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like
>*Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*.  I thought this Cthulu stuff was
>Lovecraft.  Can somebody explain?

Lovecraft did indeed originate the Cthulhu stuff and developed the
basic mythos.  Several other writers have expanded on the mythos
since. I have a 2 volume paperback collection of "Tales of the
Cthulhu Mythos" and only two of the stories in it are actually by
Lovecraft.

Miriam Nadel
INTERNET: mhnadel@gryphon.CTS.COM
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!mhnadel
UUCP: {philabs, trwrb}!cadovax!gryphon!mhnadel

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 08:58:24 GMT
From: webber@brandx.rutgers.edu (Webber)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena) writes:
> I recently saw a new paperback publication of a collection of
> stories by Robert Howard (of Conan fame?) entitled something like
> *Tales of the Cthulu Mythos*.  I thought this Cthulu stuff was
> Lovecraft.  Can somebody explain?

The recent book was: Cthulhu: The Mythos and Kindred Horrors by
Robert E. Howard (edited by David Drake), Baen Books, 1987.  It is a
collection of short stories from the early 30's.

A good popularization of how Lovecraft interacted with other fantasy
writers of the time is Lovecraft: A Biography by L. Sprague De Camp,
Ballantine Books, 1975.

Recently the Cthulhu related short stories of Brian Lumley were
collected in The Compleat Crow, W. Paul Ganley Publisher, 1987.
This nicely rounds out the novels: The Transition of Titus Crow, Daw
Books, 1975; The Clock of Dreams, Jove/HBJ Books, 1978; Spawn of the
Winds, Jove/HBJ Books, 1978; and In the Moons of Borea, Jove/HBJ
Books, 1979.

Mythos stories written by Robert Block in the 30's and 50's were
collected in Mysteries of the Worm - All the Cthulhu Mythos Stories
of Robert Bloch, Zebra Books, 1981 (Lin Carter, Editor).

Michael Shea wrote a sequel to Lovecraft's The Color Out of Space,
called The Color Out of Time, Daw Books, 1984.

August Derleth edited a two volume work: H. P. Lovecraft and Others
-- Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos, Ballantine, 1969.  As mentioned by
others, only three (really four) of these are by Lovecraft.
`Others' consisted of: Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard, Frank
Belknap Long, August Derleth, Henry Kuttner, J. Vernon Shea, Robert
Bloch, J.  Ramsey Campbell, Brian Lumley, James Wade, and Colin
Wilson.

Edward P. Berglund edited: The Disciples of Cthulhu, Daw Books,
1976.  The Disciples were Brian Lumley, James Wade, Bob Van
Laerhoven, Ramsey Campbell, Walter C. DeBill, Jr., Joseph Payne
Brennan, Lin Carter, Eddy C. Bertin, and Fritz Leiber.

But, if I recall rightly, the original query was from a person who
actually wanted to avoid reading all of the basic texts, so perhaps
digressing into derivative works is a step in the wrong direction
:-)

BOB
webber@aramis.rutgers.edu
rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!webber

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 13:25:49 GMT
From: iws@rayssdb.ray.com (Ihor W. Slabicky)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

I would suggest that you also visit the East Side of Providence, RI
(and the mill towns of RI as well) to get a very good feel for what
Lovecraft's descriptions really looked like.  The East Side is full
of old mansions and Victorian houses which overlook the City itself
below it. Some of his stories take place there and walking around
there, I am glad that most of those horrors were destroyed in his
stories, making the area a safe place to walk around at night. I do
get a strange feeling though whenever I drive by the Arkwright
Curtain Company, off of I-195 in Fall River, MA, the name Arkwright
being so associated with Lovecraft's work as a location.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 08:30:00 GMT
From: hogge@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

The novelette "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" is probably the
tightest things Lovecraft ever wrote, plotwise, and has most of the
great horror elements found in his other stories, minus the Cthulhu
mythos stuff.

"At the Mountains of Madness" is also worthy reading, but you'll
probably have to do lots of skimming till the end.

For all out weird descriptive fantasy (i.e. no shade of a plot), try
tackling "The Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath."

One thing to keep in mind while reading Lovecraft.  He rarely writes
about direct horror; there's always one step removed from what
really happened.  Narrative style, and the narrators are usually not
in the best frame of mind...

John

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Jun 87 1044-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #285
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 87 1044-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #285
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 285

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellanous - Star Trek (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 12:42:21 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

quirk@europa.UUCP writes:
>Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
>>At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next
>>Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some
>>info from it.

I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has not
been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright.  Fans
get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is not
smart. In my opinion.

>>2) We now know what Stardates mean!  " A stardate is a five-digit
>>number followed by a decimal point and one more digit.  Example:
>>41254.7 The first two digits of the stardate are always 41.  The 4
>>stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season.  The
>>additional three leading digits will progress uneavenly during the
>>course of the season from 000 to 999.  The digit following the
>>decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter."
>
>I see that thy finally decided to 'standardize' the Stardate
>system.  Too bad they waited 20+ yeasr to do it.  How will they
>reconcile SD 8147.3 (From ST-II I believe) with this 'new' system?
>What was wrong with the 'random' numbers which had to be refrenced
>to the ship's chronometer in order to make sense? ;-) Looks to me
>that they're trying to make it too rigid.  Besides, We all know how
>the Stardate REALLY works.  Today's Stardate is 8706.5 (Jun 5,
>1987). ;-)

This is a method to maintain Stardate consistency for the WRITERS.
We can assume stardates mean something different in the Star Trek
universe, having nothing to do with the first season.

>>3) We now know what Warp's mean!  At least we're told, not only
>>that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum
>>sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour.
>
>Again they decide to change something for the sake of changing
>things.  It has been established that Wapr Factor (WF) 1 is the
>speed of light in vacuum (c).  WF 2 = 8c.  WF 3 = 27c.  WF (n) =
>(n)^3 * c.  And I still disagree that WF 6 is the maximum speed!
>In *ST-TMP* the big E went to WF 9!  I don't think that 78+ yeasr
>of 'progress' will make the Warp Drive less powerfull.

Yeah, the 1 light yr/hr is inconsistent.  But the cubed rule was
never established on Star Trek (and the Tech manual, with its 100
starships and dreadnaughts and whatever is not Canon according to
GR).  Maybe what they call Warp in STTNG is really Transwarp (hows
that for an excuse to keep everyone happy.  It would even explain
the big E going Warp 14.1 under the old system when the new
double-nickel is Warp 10.

>>Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an
>>advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony.  Said
>>intelligence distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this
>>android.  Data's favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing
>>more than to be a "real boy."
>
>Corny.  What's wrong with another Vulcan?  (Maybe Saavik in her
>middle years.)

Because they've already DONE Vulcans.  What do you have against
other alien races?

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 21:05:32 GMT
From: sam@bu-cs.bu.edu (Shelli Meyers)
Subject: Re: Next Generation on ET

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>Okay.  Does anyone have the Entertainment Tonight (Tuesday) Star
>Trek: The Next Generation piece on tape?  Did anyone even see it?

Sadly enough, I didn't get it on tape, but I did see it.

Reactions:

* Captain Pickard, or whatever his name is, looks *old*.  I am
  simply not going to fall in lust with him like I did Captain Kirk.

* The uniforms were ugly.  The looked like the uniforms from ST:TMP.
  Ugh.

* Damn near everybody was white, execpt of course for LaVar Burton.
  All the extras, everything.  Also a NOTABLE lack of aliens.  Is
  this series so low budget that they can't afford some aliens in
  the crew?

* All the women looked "pretty" and "cute" and "feminine"... and
  exactly *alike*.  I would have liked to have seen a Grace
  Jones-type or a very military woman like Vasquez (sp?) in Aliens.
  But noooo, they were all boobs and hairdos.

Am I optimistic about the show?  Well, maybe a little less now, but
I know you can't judge a book by its cover.

Not a purist, but a not-easily-converted fan of the original.

Shelli Meyers
Boston University

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 04:20:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!bones@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

As far as that Globe article goes, it was complete nonsense.  The
fan who was quoted at the end of the article as to his meaning of
the "Ultimate Computer" show was not even close.  Dr. Daystrom was a
lunatic and was not trying to perfect an old computer.  And the
analogy to the new star trek not having a chance to be as good as
the old is just as wrong.  Why in the world are there Star Trek fans
who are upset because it is finally returning to television.  There
are hardly any science fiction shows on at all, and now we have one
made by Gene Roddenberry and it is called Star Trek!  We should be
happy Star Trek is returning!  Just because the original cast is now
doing a marvelous job on the films and that group sees no reason to
return to TV, why should we have to wait two years to see Star Trek!
I am all for this new series and I hope it does well.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 09:15:20 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) quotes quirk@europa.UUCP:
>>>Data (rhymes with that-a, the Guide says) is the product of an
>>>advanced intelligence and a doomed Earth colony.  Said
>>>intelligence distilled the dying colonist's knowledge into this
>>>android.  Data's favorite story is Pinocchio-- he wants nothing
>>>more than to be a "real boy."
>>Corny.  What's wrong with another Vulcan?  (Maybe Saavik in her
>>middle years.)
...And replies:
>Because they've already DONE Vulcans.  What do you have against other
>alien races?

Personally, I have nothing against other alien races, myself.  Let's
see an Andorian!  I don't care if you throw in a Kzin! (I know -
wrong universe :-}) I do think that the idea of putting in a Super
Strong Android, though, is a bit (as the good Capt. would put it)
corny.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 02:15:31 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

I see a lot of postings about the new warp factors. I suggest that
people do a little math before complaining.

1 light year/hr = 8766 *c
this is almost warp 21 under the old warp factors!

Obviously they have changed the definition of warp factor.  It's
about time! Under the old system, at warp ten (10^3 c) it would take
over 8 hours to go 1 light year!  (If this is all-out _emergency_
speed, they'll never get anywhere)

But with the new warp 6 being 1 ly/hr they can travel a bit more
reasonably.  Remember, stars average 3-5 ly apart!

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 20:35:20 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

>>At a con a few weeks ago, a friend picked me up a copy of The Next
>>Generation Writer/Director's Guide and I thought I'd post some
>>info from it.
>
> I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has
> not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright.
> Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is
> not smart. In my opinion.

Lincoln Enterprises (The Roddenberry's merchandising arm) was
advertising the official "Writer's/Director's Guide" at least a
month and a half ago -- If this is what the individual bought, then
it's as legal as legal can be.  Question: I was curious to see that
this was actually being released -- Paramount has been very lax
about the policing of 'official' and 'unofficial' ST merchandise
(unlike Lucas & SWars -- and the BBC with Doctor Who Merchandise).
Is it *just* possible that some creative minds involved with TNG are
also looking at/creating merchandising opportunities?

Jean Airey
US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 1987  11:11 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG

   That's the cast?  It almost sounds like an attempt to distill
what some network guru thought was good about the original cast and
feed it back into new faces.  The description of this half-betazoid
sounds awfully like certain abilities of Spock's for example (oy, my
stomach hurts!  Here cap'n, have half a betazoid :)) Sounds like
it's becoming more soap than space opera...

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 00:30:38 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker):
>>Because they've already DONE Vulcans.  What do you have against
>>other alien races?
>
>Personally, I have nothing against other alien races, myself.
>Let's see an Andorian!  I don't care if you throw in a Kzin! (I
>know - wrong universe :-})

What do you mean wrong universe????  Don't you remember the episode
"The Slaver Weapon" by Larry Niven?  he probably decided to add them
to his own universe after the ST episode. :-) :-)

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
UUCP:  rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU
US MAIL:  LPO 12749 CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 17:22 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek Trivia
Cc: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)

>in what episode was Chekov given the con?  I have searched my
>memory banks and have come up blank on that one.

"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while
Lt.  Uhura sits in the background.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 09:47 EDT
From: "George Barbanis, Heldenprogrammer"
From: <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: ST:TNG communicators

>>4) Communicators are part of the uniform's insignia--great way to
>>avoid losing them on landing parties.
>
>Finally!  A good idea.  Now the aliens will have to strip the
>characters in order to take their communication equipment away.
>(1/2 ;-))

I predict that the lines "Issue them prisoner clothes, throw them in
the dungeons" will become standard in every ST episode.  Also, the
Enterprise crew will more often than ever dress in local garb before
beaming down to a planet.

But I agree it's a good idea, although it carries the Walkman
concept a bit too far :-).

gb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 16:47:38 GMT
From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding
the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member
(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the
line-of-command.  Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is
clearly in training for a line assignment and might be permitted to
assume command responsibility.  It would make Uhura relatively
unique on the bridge, although there is the occasional engineering
officer who never seems to be given command, either.  Sometimes
Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they never get to
command.

Does that make any sense?
John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO  80234
USENET:  ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
PHONE:   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 12:30:40 GMT
From: hallett@othello.steinmetz (Hallett)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Starbuck) writes:
>What do you mean wrong universe????  Don't you remember the episode
>"The Slaver Weapon" by Larry Niven?  he probably decided to add
>them to his own universe after the ST episode. :-) :-)

Sorry Steve.  The Slaver Weapon was a cartoon version.  I liked the
cartoons personally, but I cannot consider them technically robust.
(Otherwise, Klingons would have shields 8-) <- note the smiley
here!)

However, I'm all for incorporating the Kzinti into ST:TNG.  Good
characters.

Jeffrey A. Hallett
hallett@ge-crd.arpa
hallett@desdemona.uucp
Software Technology Program
General Electric Corporate Research and Development

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 01:28:47 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L.
From: Carlock)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

quirk@europa.UUCP writes:
>they have a stumbling block in their relationship--her husband was
>killed under his command and, to some extent, blames Picard.

I guess he would!

But seriously -- thanks, Gym, for transporting that writer's manual
posting over here.  Highly interesting.  And yes, Dammit, it bugs de
hell out of me when things get changed just for the sake of changing
them.  On the changed warp factors, fr'instance:

(I think the following information is based on the "Making of Star
Trek" -- but it may be based on some James Blish info.  If the
latter is true, then the give the remainder of this posting somewhat
less weight.  I can't really remember where I read it).

I was given to understand that the warp factors were powers of 10,
i.e. warp 1 is the speed of light times 10^^1 . . . oops.  How about
the (n - 1)th power of 10, where n is some nonzero number?  This
would give warp 1 = C * 1, warp 2 = C * 10, warp 3 = C * 100, . . .
warp 8 = C * 10^^7 = C * 10,000,000.  This would allow the
Enterprise, traveling at warp 6, to move from Earth to it's nearest
neighbor star system (Alpha Centauri) 4.7 light years away, in a
little less than 1/2 hour.  This is pretty fast, but you need speed
like this to reach the edge of the galaxy, folks.  It seems like the
Enterprise is usually cruising at warp 3 or 4 anyway.  This would
give it a travel time of 2 - 20 days from Earth to Alpha Centauri,
which seems pretty much in line with the ST universe.

I like this explanation a whole lot better than what I saw in that
new manual.

Thank you.

profoundly,

malc@tahoe
U of N/Reno

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 20:27:24 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>>in what episode was Chekov given the conn?  I have searched my
>>memory banks and have come up blank on that one.
>"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while
>Lt.  Uhura sits in the background.

I am unconvinced.  Note that Kirk almost always ascends the
Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same way.
Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in particular, "take
over."  According to the chain of command as it seems to be on the
Enterprise, the helmsman is the closest thing there is to an OOD,
and therefore outranks all other officers during his watch except
for the Exec and the Captain.  To give the Conn to Chekov would be a
serious breach of the chain of command so long as Sulu had the helm.
As I do not recall his explicitly naming Chekov, I assumed that he
spoke to Chekov to save his strength, not to give him the Conn.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jun 87 1018-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #286
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 87 1018-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #286
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 286

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 18:42:31 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu quotes davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner):
>>Personally, I have nothing against other alien races, myself.
>>Let's see an Andorian!  I don't care if you throw in a Kzin! (I
>>know - wrong universe :-})
>
>What do you mean wrong universe????  Don't you remember the episode
>"The Slaver Weapon" by Larry Niven?  he probably decided to add
>them to his own universe after the ST episode. :-) :-)

Steve, I missed that episode, but I have heard about it from a good
friend of mine.  I put in the quick disclaimer to avoid being flamed
alive by that faction of Trekkies who don't think that the cartoon
series (which is where that episode happened) is "real" St

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 21:33:16 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes:
>I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding
>the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member
>(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the
>line-of-command.  Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is
>clearly in training ...

(Abbreviation note: OOD = Officer of the Deck,
                   JOOD = Junior Officer of the Deck.)

Recall that Uhura did take the navigation console in Balance of
Terror, which seems to correspond to JOOD in Naval organization.
She therefore was the second ranking officer on board ship,
excluding the Captain and Exec.  I therefore conclude that she was
capable of handling the ship, and no more of a specialist than
Scotty or DeSalle, who each commanded from time to time.

Of course, aboard a real vessel, there should be a real OOD who does
not have any console to watch, no controls to handle, and who is
totally responsible for anything which happens during his watch.  He
should either sit in the Captain's chair, or stand next to it.  All
officers below the Exec should report to him, even if they outrank
him.  The conning should be done by the JOOD, who may well be an
ensign, but who would assume the Deck should anything happen to the
OOD, until a relief could be called.

Of course, both pilots, with their bigger budgets, have someone
standing watch on the bridge.  Since Sulu seems to be in command if
Kirk and Spock are both off the bridge, I assume he is OOD.  (Of
course, in an emergency he would become quickly overloaded while at
the controls.)  Since the Navigation Console is next in position and
importance, I assume the one who takes it is JOOD.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 05:54:39 GMT
From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM  writes:
>>>in what episode was Chekov given the conn?
>>"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while
>>Lt.  Uhura sits in the background.
>I am unconvinced.  Note that Kirk almost always ascends the
>Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same way.
>Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in particular,
>"take over."  According

Not true. I checked my tape, and Kirk says "Mr. Chekov, take over."

Nathan Glasser
nathan@mit-eddie.uucp (usenet)
nathan@xx.lcs.mit.edu (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 05:37:58 GMT
From: cd0v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

Uhura DID take command from a senior officer in the animated episode
"The Lorelei Syndrome". If I remember correctly , she took it on the
advice/approval of McCoy, but I'm not sure. All the men were being
affected by the women on the planet so Uhura took command. (I forget
from whom, I would guess it was Scotty). Can someone clear us up on
this?

Chris Durham
Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu
BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma
usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 21:01:05 GMT
From: towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>3) We now know what Warp's mean!  At least we're told, not only
>that Warp 1 is the speed of light, but Warp 6, the maximum
>sustainable speed, is 1 light-year per hour.

Interesting, considering that the "trans-warp drive" ship Excelsior
of STIII was supposed to be so much faster than the Enterprise that
it would have been forced to overtake, turn round and come back in
order to catch it.  Why does the new Enterprise not have trans-warp
drive?  (Perhaps Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior has had more far
reaching consequences than anyone else had suspected :-)) Seriously
though, from reading the net reports on this subject I have been
forced to conclude that we must expect a lot of inconsistencies with
both the original series and the films.  Still, I will wait
(impatiently) to see the results before I make final judgement.  The
worst bit is going to be trying not to read the comments on the net
about the pilot between the time it comes out and the time it is
shown over here :-)

Tony Towers
Department of Computer Science
Reading University.
JANET : towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 05:41:04 GMT
From: timothyb@crash.cts.com (Timothy Burleson)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

Now, I heard that there will be a Klingon as a member of the crew in
TNG.  (From Magel Barrett.) She said that Gene always hated the idea
of having an alien race that was totally evil. Also, he does not
want any confrontations with the Klingon and other 'old' races from
ST.

Can anyone confirm that date for the premire of TNG? I think I heard
Oct 3 mentioned, but I'm not sure.

Timothy B. Burleson
{akgua,hplabs!hp-sdd,sdcsvax}!crash!pnet01!timothyb

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 18:10:21 GMT
From: 6089031@pucc.princeton.edu (Shantanu Saha)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

nathan@eddie.MIT.EDU (Nathan Glasser) writes:

>Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>>Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM  writes:
>>>>in what episode was Chekov given the conn?
>>>"Journey to Babel" towards the end as Kirk collapses -- and while
>>>Lt.  Uhura sits in the background.
>>I am unconvinced.  Note that Kirk almost always ascends the
>>Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same
>>way.  Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in
>>particular, "take over."  According
>Not true. I checked my tape, and Kirk says "Mr. Chekov, take over."

I stand corrected.  In that event, given the apparent chain of
command, to give the conn to Chekov passed over not only Uhura, but
Sulu as well.  We can explain passing over Uhura by agreeing that
Star Fleet regulations sexistly prohibited giving the Conn to a
woman, but we still have to explain passing over Sulu.  He was on
the bridge; as helmsman he is the closest thing to an OOD the
Enterprise has; by the "normal" chain of command, he should have the
conn.

The only explanations I can see are:

  1.  Chekov was due for a "training" stint as OOD;
  2.  Kirk intended that Mr. Scott be called to the bridge, and
        was ordering Mr. Chekov to do so;
  3.  Kirk (read the writer) goofed;
  4.  My explanation applies, except that Kirk named the officer at
      whom he was looking out of long habit.

As Kirk had ordered Mr. Scott called just before the attack began, I
vote for #2.  Of course, he could as easily have said "Lt. Uhura,
call Mr. Scott," or even "Lt. Uhura, take over," but once we explain
(within the ST universe) why Sulu was not addressed, the same
arguments can be used to explain Uhura's being passed over.

Of course, if we address the question of why were things scripted in
certain ways, then we leave all such considerations behind.  I do
not wish Star Fleet to be any more racist or sexist than I can avoid
making it, because I (among other things) the producers were (I
think) trying to be open-minded.  Recall that this WAS 1965-8.  This
is the same era which saw the Smothers Brothers tossed off the air
by the censors.  There are some things which just wouldn't play in
Peoria.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 00:28:55 GMT
From: IRWIN@pucc.princeton.edu (Irwin Tillman)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) writes:
>Why does the new Enterprise not have trans-warp drive?  (Perhaps
>Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior has had more far reaching
>consequences than anyone else had suspected :-))

If the Excelsior was undergoing testing at the time of ST3, perhaps
it failed.  I don't think Scotty's sabotage had any important
consequences (other than improving security), but maybe there is
some flaw inherent in transwarp technology that only became clear in
the full-scale test.

Irwin Tillman
Princeton University
BITNET: IRWIN@PUCC
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,cbosgd}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!IRWIN

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 18:15:25 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes:
>I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding
>the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member
>(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the
>line-of-command.  Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is
>clearly in training for a line assignment and might be permitted to
>assume command responsibility.  It would make Uhura relatively
>unique on the bridge, although there is the occasional engineering
>officer who never seems to be given command, either.  Sometimes
>Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they never get to
>command.
>
>Does that make any sense?

Not quite true.  There were a number of episodes where Scotty was
given command of the ship (the episode where Kirk and a landing
party were stuck on the planet which was sort of like ancient Rome -
I forget the name - and "The Gamesters of Triskellian" (sp?), just
to name two).  Also, Star Fleet has, basically, three
classifications of officers - Engineering, Sciences, and Command.
Spock and Uhura are in Sciences (of course, you can validate Spock's
taking command due to his also being First Officer), Checkov & Sulu
(and Kirk, of course! :-)) are Command, and Scotty, of course, is
Engineering.  Probably the reason that Scotty is given command at
times is because he is, after Kirk and Spock, the most senior
officer on board the Enterprise.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 00:59:13 GMT
From: drp@lll-lcc.arpa (David Preston)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>of course! :-)) are Command, and Scotty, of course, is Engineering.
>Probably the reason that Scotty is given command at times is
>because he is, after Kirk and Spock, the most senior officer on
>board the Enterprise.

I thought McCoy was the most senior officer after K&S; in Menagerie,
Spock surrendered to McCoy, after explaining to him that he had
committed mutiny, and that it was up to McCoy to arrest him as the
most senior officer.  Of course, McCoy was not in a command
position(I'm a DOCTOR not a Starship Captain :-)

david

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 05:54:53 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: ST:TNG Warp Drive

IRWIN@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Irwin Tillman) writes:
>towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers) writes:
>>Why does the new Enterprise not have trans-warp drive?  (Perhaps
>>Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior has had more far reaching
>>consequences than anyone else had suspected :-))
>
>If the Excelsior was undergoing testing at the time of ST3, perhaps
>it failed.  I don't think Scotty's sabotage had any important
>consequences (other than improving security), but maybe there is
>some flaw inherent in transwarp technology that only became clear
>in the full-scale test.

This is, of course, the official explanation, as has previously been
discussed on the net.  The new official explanation of Warp factors
has also caused some questions: warp n has long been established as
(n**3)c, but now they tell us that warp 6 is about 8760c.

Both problems can be solved if we say that the new Enterprise DOES
have trans-warp speed, but that in common parlance the "trans-" has
been dropped, and the old warp factors are now called "para-warp",
or some such notation.  Under this (totally unofficial) scheme,
(trans-)warp 6 is about (para-)warp 20.6!  (trans-)warp factors
could then be exponential, say (trans-)warp n = (2*pi)**(n-1).  This
would give the following table:

      (trans-)warp 1 =      1 c = 1 light year/year,
                   2 =   6.28 c = 1 light year/58 days,
                   3 =   39.5 c = 1 light year/9.25 days,
                   4 =  248.1 c = 1 light year/1.47 days,
                   5 = 1558.6 c = 1 light year/5.62 hours,
                   6 = 9792.6 c = 1 light year/53.67 minutes.

This is close enough for government work, and has the advantage of
including a nice mathematical constant (pi) which can give us some
pseudo-scientific explanations of how warp drive works.  We can do
almost as well using e, I suppose, or the fourth root of 1/alpha,...

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 14:25:41 GMT
From: bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
> bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes:
>>... It would make Uhura relatively unique on the bridge, although
>>there is the occasional engineering officer who never seems to be
>>given command, either.  Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching
>>what they do, but they never get to command.
>
> Not quite true.  There were a number of episodes where Scotty was
> given command of the ship (the episode where Kirk and a landing
> party were stuck on the planet which was sort of like ancient Rome
> - I forget the name - and "The Gamesters of Triskellian" (sp?),
> just to name two).

I just wasn't being clear, I guess.  I know Scotty sometimes
commands, but never the other occasional engineering types who sit
at the engineering console.

Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the Engineering
color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that yucky gold
color).

I tend to agree with your analysis that there are basically three
specialties: Command, Engineering, and Science, and I would expect
top command in space to typically bypass Sciences and Engineering in
favor of Command personnel.  On the other hand, the senior-most
members of other groups (Chief Engineer, Chief Science Officer) are
probably more command-oriented than technical specialists.  Not
having any Navy experience to fall back on, I have to rely on common
sense instead :).

Back in my youth when I was designing interstellar spacecraft, I
used some such organization of personnel (usually with more
departments, though).  Not that that's terribly relevant.

John T. Bryan
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO  80234
USENET:  ...!ihnp4!druhi!bryan
PHONE:   (303) 538-5172

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jun 87 1035-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #287
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 87 1035-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #287
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 287

Today's Topics:

               Books - Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) &
                       Danny Dunn (2 msgs) & Doc Savage &
                       Anthology on Devils &
                       Expanding Short Stories &
                       Book Request Answers (2 msgs) &
                       Books in Libraries &
                       Book Requests (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 87 12:47:40 cdt
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: norris@STRIPE.SRI.COM
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus Reviews

My thanks to Aline Baeck for locating the references to reviews of
the Codex Seraphinianus! I just spent some time at the St. Louis
Public Library looking them up, and thought I'd pass the word.

Here are the citations she provided, along with comments I noted
when reading the reviews. Notice that all of these that I found are
very short, one paragraph or so in length. They are mostly in the
nature of blurbs of praise or brief descriptions, rather than formal
reviews. They could all have been summed up as "Gee whiz -- what a
weird strange book!  How neat!"-- not really terribly valuable from
a critical standpoint...  (They were all in microfilm form, by the
way.)

> 1) Esquire Magazine, V 102 p260, Nov. 1984
Describes the CS as the "oddest book of the year" and as an
"untranslatable" description of a "parallel universe".

> 2) NYT Book Review, V 89 p20, Feb. 12, 1984
Mentioned in an earlier posting of mine, this is a brief description
with a small reproduction of one of the book's pictures.

> 3) Los Angeles Times Book Review, p4, Dec. 18, 1983
Unfortunately, this one I can't find; the library gets this paper
but doesn't keep back issues on microfilm.

> 4) Choice, V21 p696, Jan. 1984
This is actually a periodical named "Choice Books for College
Libraries" or something like that. Describes the CS as "delightful".

> 5) Atlantic Monthly, V 253 p105, Feb. 1984
Refers to the CS as "completely alien".

> 6) Publishers Weekly, V224 p62, Oct. 28, 1983.
Describes the CS as "haunting and a source of endless stimulation".

If anyone happens to locate the LA Times review, let me know if that
is just another one of these same sort of blurbs.

(I'm still waiting for the book version of "Metamagical Themas" to
return to the library shelf so I can read the reference to CS
therein.)

Regards,
Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 13:17:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: CODEX SERAPHINIANUS

 There was some discussion of the CODEX SERAPHINIANUS, by Luigi
Serafini, here some weeks ago.  I have recently come across the
address of Publishers Central Bureau, from where it can be ordered,
and the order number of the book itself.

Publishers Central Bureau
Dept 496
One Champion Avenue
Avenel, New Jersey
   07001-2301
CODEX SERAPHINIANUS Item number: 475146

For those who did not see this discussion, the book is a large
format encyclopedia of an alien culture, lavishly illustrated, and
entirely written in an alien tounge, using an alphabet that is not
of this earth.  I do not know if tranlations exist; but for those
interested in linguistic puzzles or cryptography, this book might be
worth investigating.

I have no affiliation with PCB, other than being an occassional
customer.

Peter Webb
{allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb
...!ulowell!applicon!webb
...!raybed2!applicon!webb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 02:29:52 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: Danny Dunn series

blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa writes:
>Does anyone remember the author's name, and/or have
>a list of books (etc)

This is from one of my old copies: The co-authors are Jay Williams &
Raymond Abrashkin. The books listed at the front of this, probably a
partial list: (not in order unless by accident)
Danny Dunn & the Antigravity Paint
Danny Dunn & the Homework Machine
Danny Dunn & the Smallifying Machine
Danny Dunn On a Desert Island

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 06:32:00 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Danny Dunn series

From:   blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa
> Does anyone remember the author's name, and/or have a list of the
> books in the series?  (do you suppose they are still in print?)

Back in 1979, Pocket/Archway released 15 Danny Dunn books (the whole
series, as far as I know) in paperback. I don't think they are still
in print, but they shouldn't be that hard to track down.

Anyways, the authors were Jay Williams and Raymond Abrashkin. The
titles were as follows (the number in brackets is the series number
given in the Archway set, which obviously was out of order):

DANNY DUNN AND THE ANTI-GRAVITY PAINT   (1956)  [ 7]
DANNY DUNN ON A DESERT ISLAND           (1957)  [15]
DANNY DUNN AND THE HOMEWORK MACHINE     (1958)  [ 5]
DANNY DUNN AND THE WEATHER MACHINE      (1959)  [10]
DANNY DUNN ON THE OCEAN FLOOR           (1960)  [ 9]
DANNY DUNN AND THE FOSSIL CAVE          (1961)  [11]
DANNY DUNN AND THE HEAT RAY             (1962)  [14]
DANNY DUNN, TIME TRAVELLER              (1963)  [ 8]
DANNY DUNN AND THE AUTOMATIC HOUSE      (1965)  [13]
DANNY DUNN AND THE VOICE FROM SPACE     (1967)  [12]
DANNY DUNN AND THE SMALLIFYING MACHINE  (1969)  [ 1]
DANNY DUNN AND THE SWAMP MONSTER        (1971)  [ 6]
DANNY DUNN, INVISIBLE BOY               (1974)  [ 2]
DANNY DUNN, SCIENTIFIC DETECTIVE        (1975)  [ 3]
DANNY DUNN AND THE UNIVERSAL GLUE       (1977)  [ 4]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 23:44:17 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Doc Savage

From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu       (Dan Parmenter)
> Zelazny isn't the only person to use Doc Savage as a 'guest star'
> in a story.  In Dave Stevens' stupendously fabulous 'Rocketeer'
> comic book series 'The Rocketeer'...Doc Savage...makes a brief
> appearance, along with Monk Mayfair and another of Doc's cronies.

Doc Savage also appeared in a short story by Philip Jose Farmer
entitled "After King Kong Fell" (OMEGA, 1973, ed.  by Roger Elwood).

And by the way, the other "crony" was Ham Brooks.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 03:57:25 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck)
Subject: Some comments on *Devils*, by Asimov, Greenberg, & Waugh

Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Fantasy 8: Devils, edited by Isaac
Asimov, Martin H. Greenberg, and Charles Waugh.  Signet, June 1987.
351 pp.

     Martin Harry Greenberg, claims the author blurb, is "the King
of the Anthologists". This is a tough proposition to refute.
Associated (for marketing purposes, I guess) with one or another
famous author, he has edited over 150 anthologies. Only God and
Jerry Boyajian know if that is indeed a record. (Surely not even
Groff Conklin topped this total - and we'll save consideration of
Roger Elwood for another time.)

     He has three series I know of going with the Good Doctor: the
annual bests of bygone years, the Magical Worlds of Fantasy, and the
Wonderful Worlds of Science Fiction (though the latest WWSF is
edited by Silverberg, Greenberg, and Waugh, no doubt in an effort to
confuse me). The latest entry in the Fantasy series is number 8:
Devils.

     Now, this is a topic that could strain even MHG's sure hand for
combining old favorites with forgotten gems. The deal-with-the-Devil
story is perhaps the weariest cliche in the genre, and most of the
entries here are indeed DWTD stories. They do cover the Infernal
Ground, though, stretching from Tolstoy's "The Tale of Ivan the
Fool" through an original (I think) story by Rick Hautala, "Colt
.24", in which a clever idea makes up for some slapdash writing.

     The longest piece in the book is one of Cornell Woolrich's
slightly perverse melodramas, "I'm Dangerous Tonight". There are
some famous works (famous to me, that's who): Fredric Brown's "The
Rustle of Wings", Robert Bloch's "The Hell-Bound Train", Charles
Beaumont's "The Howling Man" (basis for the Twilight Zone episode),
Stephen Vincent Benet's "The Devil and Daniel Webster", and, for a
little twist, Arthur C. Clarke's "Guardian Angel". The book winds up
with Theodore Sturgeon's "Dazed", which, in fine Sturgeonesque
style, stands the DWTD theme on its head while making a sharp point,
to boot.

     There are eighteen stories in all, along with a short preface
by the Good Doctor (otherwise unrepresented in the book). A good
many of them were written in or about the fifties, confirming a
suspicion I have long held that the decade was a prime time for
you-know-what stories. Some of the authors may not be Big Names now,
but they once were. Ray Russell and Robert F. Young are represented,
as are Theodore Cogswell with a late story called "Deal With the
D.E.V.I.L."  ("Data Evaluation Vehicle for International Logistics,
the new supercomputer in the basement of the Pentagon") and Jerome
Bixby (of "It's a Good Life"/TZ fame) with a very nice piece called
"Trace".

     All in all, a satisfying book. If you haven't overdosed on
Devil's, er, tales lately, I think you'll find something to
entertain you here (though it might not be Ruth Sawyer's "The
Shepherds", an instance in which my taste and the editors' seriously
diverged).

     Be warned, though. The book is incomplete. It does not contain
Fritz Leiber's "Gonna Roll the Bones". Ah, well.

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
U. Texas Astronomy Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 06:00:49 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Expanded short stories?

From:   cc5.bbn.com!levin
> I read...A. E. van Vogt's "The Weapon Shops" and was amazed years
> later to find a novel _The Weapon Shops of Isher_ containing the
> entire short story in several chapters throughout the novel....  I
> also read a short story called "The Rull", and a story
> anthologized in several places, "The Sound" (I think).  They both
> later turned up as chapeters in a rather episodic novel called
> _The War Against the Rull_.  In this case it seems clear the novel
> was built out of existing pieces.
>
> I would be interested in knowing more about the sequence and
> history of the above stories, and of other examples of this sort
> of thing (I already know about the Foundation trilogy).

This isn't really all that uncommon. Often times, it's easier for a
writer (especially a new writer) to break into print with a short
story or novelette, so they end up writing a series of such, which
they later cobble together into a novel.

Other examples off the top of my head:

A.E. van Vogt:  THE VOYAGE OF THE SPACE BEAGLE
Joe Haldeman:   THE FOREVER WAR
Poul Anderson:  THE STAR FOX
Poul Anderson:  OPERATION CHAOS
Talbot Mundy:   TROS OF SAMOTHRACE
Gordon Dickson: TIMESTORM
Orson Card:     CAPITOL
Chris Anvil:    STRANGERS IN PARADISE
Anne McCaffrey: DRAGONFLIGHT

If you can find a copy of Peter Nicholls' THE SCIENCE FICTION
ENCYCLOPEDIA, take a look at random entries and try to find the term
"fix-up" (which is what he calls such books). You'll find quite a
few.

It's also been quite popular for writers to take a single novelette
and expand it into a novel. In almost every case (I can't think of
any exceptions), the original, shorter version is better. In some of
those cases, the shorter version is really good, and the novel sucks
galactic moose.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 19:58:36 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Book Author/Title Request

>...looking for Title and Author...Earth agent sent to another
>planet...mind control...under a powerful protector (a 40?)...

The book is The Mind Traders by J.Hunter Holly.  It may be out of
print. I have it in my library, and it is rather old.  I don't think
J.Hunter Holly did much else.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 20:25:14 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Book request...

>...the "BEST" fantasy stories to read...

 I've always loved Andre Norton's Witch World series.  There are
about 13 or 14 books in the series, starting with Witch World.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 05:34:11 GMT
From: ma181aak@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (ROBERT LEONE)
Subject: Re: Book request...

   When searching for rare, old, out-of-print books, try your local
libraries, especially the really old ones. There's something about
Lord Dunsany and James Branch Cabell, who started writing (like Eric
Rucker Eddison) in pre-Tolkien days, that makes their books end up
in fair numbers in public libraries.
   Perhaps its because fantasy writers were take rather more
seriously in those days.  Cabell's Jurgen laid down the groundwork
for Henry Miller's sex-filled work.  Dunsany was a master at putting
the essence of mortality and morality on a page and a half.  Maybe
the writers were taken more seriously by readers and library
purchasing comittees...  Heck, I don't know.  While you're in the
library (and yes, this is inappropriate but it's fun) try looking up
Horace Walpole's book on RICHARD III (the guy who's said to have
killed his nephews to become King of England in 1483).  Walpole
called Sir Saint Thomas More, writer of Utopia, a prostitute, and got
away with it.
   Love that man....

Robert

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 87 00:06 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: YET ANOTHER BOOK REQUEST...

 I've been asked to post a book request for an author
with the unlikely name of Corydon Throsp who has written
a book called "Entrophy Pump." The only reference
found so far was in a book on field armour.
*Any* help will be much appreciated...

R. Allen Jervis
C78KCK@IRISHMVS

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 09:38:25 EDT
From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: T&A (Title & Author!) Request...

Sorry, had to do it...

Okay, the book I remember dealt with this guy who was learning
meditation to help him deal with stress.  He kept getting more and
more advanced at it, getting to higher planes of awareness.  He was
forgetful, though, and used his (pilotless) stove.

B   O  O  M  !

House and body blown away.  His consciousness, however, is stuck on
what I remeber being the Astral Plane.  I forget what happens,
except he decides to play around withthe Astral Fiber or something
and creates this planet.  He populates it with critters, cave
people, and one ageless, disease-immune super man, which he inhabits
to "play" in the world.  He gets stuck, and has to spend his undying
days on the planet, and basically travels around getting into
trouble as the world develops and advances.

Any ideas?  I read it around 1981, and the book was -- consumed in a
house fire!

Bruce Onder
WCUTECB@IUP.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jun 87 1103-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #288
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 87 1103-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #288
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 288

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - First SF (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 87 11:00:27 GMT
From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson)
Subject: First SF...

Recent postings have asked "how did you get to read SF?". For the
edification of all you out there, I came into the field after having
read the Doctor Dolittle books by Hugh Lofting. These are about a
vet who learns to talk to animals (the first one was made into a
dire musical film starring Rex Harrison!). One of these novels is
set on the moon, which is home to giant insects... the idea was
wonderful, and it hooked the six year old me onto space, and finally
into the field. I believe the first true SF I read was _The Urmal in
Space_ ,in which a living fossil visits a counter earth...

Simon Bisson
ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63

------------------------------

Date: 03-Jun-1987 1218
From: white%3d.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Randy White 296-6674 LMO4/H4 G4)
Subject: Re: My First SF...

I wasn't going to respond to this but what the heck.  My first
exposure before I really knew what SF was, back then SciFi was an
acceptable term, "Tom Swift JR."  I have seen a number of other
readers mention Tom Swift, but I believe you really mean Tom Swift
Jr. by Brian Appleton III, Tom Swift existed many years previous
written by I believe Brian Appleton JR. in the thirties my father
read these and I have since happened across a couple of these in
good condition at a Flea Market; Anyways Tom Swift stories were
indeed pure adventure/mystery stories whilst Tom Swift JR. were the
Hardy Boys in space/the future.  Just wanted to clarify ;).

Anyways, I didn't read too much though I loved the SciFi movies and
had a fascination with robots.  In Freshman high school I was
introduced to "Pebble in the Sky, by Asimov", "Artery of Fire, by
???(it was a while ago...)" and the Lord of the Rings by Tolkien,
I've been reading about 75% SF ever since, the rest are mainly Tech
Manuals (not quite as exciting, but necessary :).

I meant to include Fantasy in that 75% though it is predominantly
SF.

Randy White
Digital Equipment Corporation
Marlboro, MA

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 18:59:53 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

I've been looking over everyone's list of first science-fiction and
fantasy, and I'm honestly surprised. Am I the only one who started
off with Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking-glass? I
read these back when I was five years old, and I still have that
copy, as a matter of fact. I still re-read it regularly, it's still
one of my favorite stories. Actually, I shouldn't be surprised..I
seem to recall a teacher in high school bringing up the subject, and
myself being one of the only four people in the class who had
actually read it. >sigh<

As for science fiction, I'm not sure. My father had a big collection
of SF anthologies that I went through piecewise, then into the
novels..then I started buying my own..Star Trek and old movies on
TV. (Wow. I wasted a lot of time as a kid, didn't I :) Fantasy I
remember, besides Alice & Co., started in fourth grade (natch) when
a teacher read 'The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe' at us. I read
the rest of the series quickly enough, and next thing I knew,
Rankin-Bass had 'The Hobbit' animated and on TV. So I read that,
followed by Lord of the Rings (yes, I read LOTR in fifth grade.
Still have my copy of that...) Then my older brother's Conan
books..I seem to remember some Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser thrown in
there..

Gee, remembering all this..SF is like a drug. I got hooked, and now
I can't go a week without reading a trashy barbarian novel or the
latest _Analog_..I read Chuq's Otherrealms every month (every other
month, now)..I watch Dr.  Who regularly..I play D&D and
Paranoia..and I even >choke< post to sf-lovers! Is there no
cure? Is there no hope?

No? Oh, well. D'jah read Zelazny's latest...?

Erich Rickheit
UUCP: ...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit
USnail: 85 Gershom Ave, #2
        Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 18:33:12 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!wolf!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

My first exposure to science fiction came when I was in seventh
grade. A friend of mine had checked out a Terry Carr anthology from
the school library and told me to read it. I did so. Soon after I
read the "tripod' books -- I can't remember the names, except that
one was "The White Mountains," and I can't remember the author.. but
between the two I became hooked. Still am.

Bill Wisner
..{sdcsvax,ihnp4}!jack!wolf!billw

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 23:46:53 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: First SF (and a story request, sort of)

I remember at a very early age being sent a copy of one of the
"boy's magazines" published in England.  There was a story, I don't
remember the details, something about scientists in Antarctica I
think.  At one point there came the following line of
explanation-disguised- as-dialogue from one of the adults in the
story to his son:

   "It was the great advances in miniaturization in the
   sixties and seventies that made possible the computer
   you wear behind your ear."

I wish I knew when I had read it.  I was born in 1955 but was
reading at a prodigiously early age (so to speak); it could have
been about 1962.  Anyway, I kept that line in mind through the
intervening years, and darned if the author's prediction wasn't
true!

[Well, almost.  The computer in the story had a database that you
surely could not fit behind your ear even in 1987.  Now, in another
5-10 years...]

If anyone actually remembers this story, and can quell or confirm
the nagging voice that says "Are you sure it didn't say seventies
and eighties?", I'd like to hear about it.  By mail, of course.

Mark Brader
{decvax|ihnp4|watmath}!utzoo!sq!msb
{hplabs|lll-crg}!seismo!mnetor!utzoo!sq!msb
decwrl!utcsri!sq!msb

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 87 00:22:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Re: First Science Fiction

I grew up on Dr. Seuss and Nancy Drew. Probably in fifth or sixth
grade I read Bradbury's "The Foghorn" and "The Pedestrian" and an
excerpt from *Dandelion Wine*. My freshman year in high school I ran
across John Collier's "Lady on the Grey". (To this day Bradbury and
Collier are two of my favorite authors.) But I didn't know where
these stories came from or how to find more of them. Then someone
deliberately loaned me a copy of Asimov's *The End of Eternity* my
freshman or sophomore year of high school. He and a friend then
proceeded to supply me with such things as *Dune* and *Fahrenheit
451* and more Asimov as fast as I could read them until I got a
library card and started going to used book sales. My first
Heinleins were *Assignment in Eternity* and *Revolt in 2100*; I've
always liked Future History better than the Foundation n-ology.

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 87 06:23:36 GMT
From: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com
Subject: Re: My First SF...

That was so long ago ...  I can barely remember.  A few titles come
to mind:

   Miss Pickerell and the Rocket Ship (and others in the series)
   The Shy Stegasaurus of Cricket Creek
   Heinlein's juveniles (Red Planet stands out in my mind)
   What little else I could find in my grammar school's library
      (titles escape me )-: )
   Everything I could find in the local public library.

Somehow I missed the Tom Swift books.  To this day, the smell of old
library bindings is instant nostalgia.  I'd check them out ten at a
time on my mother's card, read almost constantly for two weeks and
renew any I hadn't finished yet.  Wore out countless batteries
reading under the covers in bed at night.  Spent my entire allowance
($1.00/week) on paperbacks at the drug store at $.35.  I've actally
got a few books with $.25 original prices.

Those were the days ...

Jerry Hollombe
hollombe@TTI.COM
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
{csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe
(213) 450-9111, x2483

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 87 22:59:14 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: First SF

On the subject of early experiences with SF, one of my favorite
early finds was the first (basically) SF anthology _Adventures in
Time and Space_.  I mention it now, because Publishers Central
Bureau is selling the trade paperback (all 997 pages of it) for the
grand sum of $1.98.  This one's a must have folks, especially at
that price.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:55:51 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: First SF

I started out with the usual kiddie books--Space Cat, Miss Pickerel
Goes to Mars (etc.), Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine (etc.),
Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill, and, of course, The Shy Stegasaurus
of Cricket Creek.  When I was about 7, and had read through all the
science books (I suspect that most of the people reading this read
the same juvie dinosaur books I did) in the children's section of
our public library (my first intro to Asimov was as a non-fiction
writer [The Double Planet]), I got permission (I had to get a signed
note from my parents to be kept on file at the library!) to check
out books in the regular section.  Soon after, I noticed the SF
shelf (and it was *one* shelf at that branch), and read some of the
Best of F & SF collections.  When I was 8, I read my first
not-for-kids SF novel, The Space Plague by Harry Harrison.  I spent
most of my early SF-reading days reading short story collections
like the Best of Galaxy and the Best of F&SF series, but the next
novels I remember reading were Sibyl Sue Blue, which I was a little
too young for (:-)), and then The Revolving Boy.  By then I was
hooked.  I was 9 or 10 when I read the Narnia books; I didn't read
the Perelandra, LOTR, or Lensmen series until I was 14, but by that
time I had read all of Asimov (SF and non-SF) that I could lay my
hands on.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:23 CST
From: <CORDWAIN%UMNACVX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: FIRST SF

   I have not contributed to SF-Lovers before, though I have read it
for some time.  I wanted to mention some of the things that got me
started as a reader of SF.
   I remember some of those Scholastic Book Club books in grade
school and Junior High school: _Man of Many Minds_, in which the
hero can project his mind into many kinds of animals, so he can use
birds to land on the window sill and overhear conversations, or use
mice to crawl under doors and explore buildings.  I don't remember
the author, but I have seen it on a used bookshelf recently.  _Miss
Pickerel Goes to Mars_, and others in the Miss Pickerel series:
again, I forget the author, though I may still have one of these
around somewhere.
   My mother read the entire Oz series to us when my brothers and I
were quite young.  Also the "Just So Stories", by Kipling.
   In Junior High school I remember reading Jules Verne: _20,000
Leagues Under the Sea_, _The Mysterious Island_, and _Master of the
World_.  I was off SF during college, though I do remember taking a
couple weeks off to read _Lord of the Rings_.  After college, in the
late 60's, I dove back into it, spent a few years reading SF
exclusively and getting into Fandom.  I prefer "real" science
fiction with some science in it, and I can only read one or two
books of the "medieval and magic" brand of fantasy before I burn out
and must read something entirely different.

Jerry Stearns
Academic Computing Services
University of Minnesota
Bitnet:  CORDWAINER@UMNACVX

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 11:49:57 EDT
From: Louis Steinberg <STEINBERG@red.rutgers.edu>
Subject: First (actually: early) SF

My first Science Fiction is lost in the mists of time, but I do
vaguely remember one book that must have been way back there.
Unfortunately I don't remember the title, but it involved a kid who
had a friend who was an alien of a species called "Martinians".  I
think the alien had anti-gravity shoes or some such, and the adults
never realized that the alien was an alien rather than just another
kid.  In fact, there may have been 2 or 3 books in this series.
Anyone remember these?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 19:26:11 GMT
From: seismo!uunet!ccicpg!cracraft@RUTGERS.EDU (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

"The Runaway Robot", by Lester del Rey (though Ghost-written by
someone else).

After that came "The White Mountains Trilogy" by John Christopher.
Also, "S is for Space" by Bradbury and "Nine Tomorrows" by Asimov.

"Foundation Trilogy" followed shortly thereafter.

All-time favorites: Varley's "Persistence of Vision", Ellison's
"Deathbird Stories", Silverberg's "Dying Inside". Sadly, SF has worn
somewhat thin on me over the years. Authors and SF books no longer
seem to hold my interest as much...

Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 19:11:25 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: First SF Story

The Star Child Trilogy was writter by Fred Pohl & Williamson.

At the moment there are 8 Pern books. Dragonflight, Dragonquest, The
White Dragon, Dragon Drums, Dragon Song, Dragon Singer, Moretta
Dragon Lady of Pern, and the newest, Norelka's Story.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 19:31:37 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

Have you tried second hand and recycle book stores?  They usually
have copies of that one, as it was (is) a great book.  Also flea
markets here sometimes have good sized collections of paperback SF.
If you still have trouble finding it, I wouldn't mind looking here
for you.  I spend a lot of time at second hand book stores and flea
markets in order to keep up with my insatiable reading appetite.  I
have that book in my library, and have reread it more than once.

Have you read The Stars, Like Dust by Isaac Asimov?  That's another
one I like from about the same period, I think.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 13:01:12 GMT
From: eric@cfi.com (eric)
Subject: Re: FIRST SF

The very first:
   "You Will Go to the Moon" - A children's book (ca. 1960) showing
   on the cover a nice little boy (like me) watching a rocket take
   off towards the moon from his bedroom.  I took the message as a
   promise, and I'm still hoping to collect...

The first from the library:
   "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel".  Also anything by Andre Norton,
   especially one featuring empathic communication with animals,
   probably alien zoo animals, and helping them to escape (anybody
   know the title?) (of course I could be wrong about the author,
   it's been 25 years).

The coup de grace:
   "Dad, what's in this box?"
   "Oh, that's just 10 years of this magazine called Analog I
   subscribe to - take them if you want."
   (I finished them 300 social studies classes later, and I still
   don't know why the teachers never said anything about reading in
   class!)

------------------------------

Date: 13 June 1987 22:24:41 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Re:  First SF

(Leonard Vanek) writes:
>Also early in my SF experience were a couple of short stories --
>Forrestor's (?) "The Machine Stops" and Clarke's (?) "By the Waters
>of Babylon" (I have no confidence that I am correct about either of
>these authors.)

In case this hasn't been answered yet, "The Machine Stops" was by E.
M.  Forster, and "By the Waters of Babylon" was by Steven Vincent
Benet.  They were pleasant surprises in a literature text used in my
junior high.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jun 87 1235-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #289
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 87 1235-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #289
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 289

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Cover Art (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 23:33:55 GMT
From: lll-lcc!ucdavis!ccs006@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Janissaries III

> In light of the recent Heinlein cover blooper, the merc is shown
> with a M-16, not a H&K, and the Roman, while wearing a cape, has a
> common legionaire's helm with cheekpads and *two* shortswords.
> Wierd scabbard positions, too.
>   Anybody know anyone besides Alan Gutierrez, Don Maitz, and
> Darrell K. Sweet who actually seem to take the time to research a
> cover? Darrell, especially, seems to at least read the book
> through before painting a cover.

I just gotta say it: Darrell K. Sweet seems to me to be doing some
of the most accurate, and well-done covers I've seen out of most of
the past year's books.

The attitude of many cover artists seems to be "well, it's an
automatic weapon- same thing. It's a sword- they're all the same."
Gee, but the roman soldier looked like that on my box of Froot
Loops...8-)

Ok, I freely admit that while I might be more accurate, the artwork
would stink. I just don't paint well.

Plans, blueprints, sketches, and some sculpture- those I can handle
(tryin' to improve all the time. One note- I don't do "abstracts",
contrary to what some of my "friends'"opinion of it is 8-)

But some cover art just is INCREDIBLY good! So here I am
complaining... 8-)

Other than cons, where can one get prints, reprints, posters, etc.
for some of these and similar SF/Fantasy works?

Eric
...!{ucsdvax,ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!ccs006
ucdavis!deneb!ccs006@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 16:25:30 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck)
Subject: Blacks on SF covers

  Recent postings have pointed out apparent discrepancies between
the cover art and the text of Heinlein's *The Cat Who Walks Through
Walls*. Certainly the complaint that artists' conceptions often not
only embellish the book they are intended to illustrate but flat out
contradict it are not new. Convention panels on cover art are full
of authors' horror stories about the things that have happened to
their ideas at the hands of artists.

  An example along the lines of *Cat* is Octavia Butler's new novel
*Dawn*. The book's protagonist, a black woman, is replaced by
someone quite ivory-skinned in the cover illustration. (In fact, to
my lewd eye, the cover seems to hint at a certain soft-core element
which, I hate to disappoint you, is not present in the novel.) This
may be somewhat irksome to Ms. Butler, who, like many of her
fictional characters, is black, and who is quite capable of creating
characters as she wants them to be. (I have only paperback copies of
most of her novels; their covers fail to portray a single
unmistakebly black character.)

  Why do you suppose this is? I don't think anyone doubts that cover
artists sometimes forgo careful reading of the book they intend to
illustrate. To make things more complicated, it has happened that
the cover illo arose quite independently of the book, with the two
being united by an editor's fiat. (In the magazines, writers have
even been commissioned to create stories around art already selected
for the cover.) I would guess something along these lines accounts
for most of the cover/text mismatches.

  But there also appears to be decided resistance to putting black
characters on the covers of sf novels. (I'll leave cover art of
other genres to the folks who read them.) If this resistance is
real, and not just some misapprehension on my part, I would guess it
results from publishers' perceptions that their market consists in
large part of people who are less likely to buy a book if they think
the main character(s) are black - even if that book is an automatic
bestseller by Robert Heinlein.

  My speculative impulse fails me when it comes to the question of
whether such judgements are conscious or not. A more important
question is whether they are valid. Would the sf buying public
really shy away from books with black characters on their covers?

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
Astronomy Department
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 16:14:49 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!aplvax!jwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Meritt)
Subject: cat wall walker cover

I must have missed something again.....  In the last couple of
decades I have noticed _VERY_ few SF covers that had little to
anything to do with their contents.  They usually have some
illustration by some artist who can (sometimes) draw a line, maybe
two.  I _NEVER_ select a SF book by its cover.  Why should THE CAT
THAT WALKED THROUGH WALLS be any different?

James W. Meritt
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 15:30:26 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers

And for other covers with non-black blacks, how about Steve Barnes'
"Street Lethal", which had a black protagonist, and was written by a
black, but whose cover featured a guy who was, if anything, Indian.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 03:51:03 GMT
From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
Subject: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers

Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being
misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been
wondering just how many books are out there that show them correctly
portrayed on covers.

The only one that comes to my mind is the story "Matadora", by Steve
Perry.  It's the second book of a trilogy ("The Matador Trilogy" is
the official name of the collection); the first being "The Man Who
Never Missed", and the last being "The Machiavelli Interface."  On
the cover of "Matadora" is a tall, lean, well-armed dark-skinned
lady: the main character of this story.  (For the curious who havent
read these books, her name is Dirisha Zuri.)

Does anyone else have any additions/answers to my query??

(And did anyone else *LOVE* this trilogy as much as I did???  )

Joanne Brooks
U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr
Consulting Staff
BITNET: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET
Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 15:26:36 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers

>  An example along the lines of *Cat* is Octavia Butler's new novel
>*Dawn*. The book's protagonist, a black woman, is replaced by
>someone quite ivory-skinned in the cover illustration.

I believe the same thing happened to Steve Barnes' STREET LETHAL
where the cover shows a white man (presumably the main character)
when the hero is actually black. Having met them at cons, Octavia
Butler and Steve Barnes are both black. Steve Barnes is a real nice
guy who has a slight resemblance to Jessie Jackson.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
..!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 20:21:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers

Re. the question of whether editors consciously or unconsciously are
afraid to put black characters on their covers for fear of reducing
sales: I offer a hopeful thought.

I can remember when TV commercials had no blacks in them, supposedly
in part because of similar fears that white people wouldn't buy
products so advertised.  Fortunately for our society, we have left
that fear far behind; black characters are often seen in
commercials, and are often even featured.  Similarly, there's a
radio commercial in our area that features an MD in the background
reciting the Hypocratic Oath; that MD is female!  Another good sign,
I think.

So if that fear is present, perhaps editors will soon realize it is
misplaced.  Other segments of our society do seem to have progressed
beyond that point.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 22:14:04 GMT
From: burstein@sim.berkeley.edu (Andrew Burstein)
Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers

brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes:
>Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being
>misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been
>wondering just how many books are out there that show them
>correctly portrayed on covers.  The only one that comes to my mind
>is the story "Matadora", by Steve Perry.

I just bought a used paperback copy of _Golem100_ by Alfred Bester.
The cover seemed to correctly portray Gretchen, one of the main
characters, as black.

However, I think the monster was misrepresented!  I think that
almost all aliens, BEM's, etc. wind up getting mangled on book
covers.  They either get horribly exaggerated, or look like an
animal head transplanted on a human body.  I guess the artists don't
want their study of human physiology to go to waste.

Andy Burstein
ihnp4!ucbvax!sim!burstein

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 02:04:39 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers

Steve Perry mentioned this problem when addressing the Portland
Science Fiction Society a year or so back.

According to him he had to fight the publisher over the covers on
his Matador trilogy. As I recall, the main character of "The Man Who
Never Missed" was black (it's been a while and I could be wrong).
The cover shows a caucasian. He did manage to get a black _woman_ on
the cover of the second book.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!leonard
tektronix!reed!percival!!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 18:32:58 GMT
From: perry@inteloa.intel.com
Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers

brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes:
>Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being
>misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been
>wondering just how many books are out there that show them
>correctly portrayed on covers.
> ...  Does anyone else have any additions/answers to my query??

F.M.Busby's *Zelde M'Tana* is another novel with a black (female)
protagonist that managed to get correctly onto the cover (of the
paperback at least).  This book is a sideline of his *Hulzein*
series.

perry@inteloa.intel.com
...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 21:46:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!trekker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Cover Art Posters?

    Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the impressive
cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction novels?  I
thought publishers would be selling posters of this art, but I
haven't seen any ads.  Have you?

bucc2!trekker
Bradley University
Peoria, IL

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 16:51:13 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Cover Art Posters?

>    Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the
>impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction
>novels?  I thought publishers would be selling posters of this art,
>but I haven't seen any ads.  Have you?

Publishers don't own the rights to reproduce the covers -- the
artists do.  Many of the authors do sell originals and prints, but
you need to know where to find them -- Science Fiction conventions
are the best place I know of, both in the art show and in the
hucksters' room.  The only problem is that you won't always know
what artists will be selling at a given con (with the exception of
the major conventions, you're likely to see the AGoH and local
artists).  If you can swing Nasfic or a major regional, you should
be able to find a lot of good art.  If there is a specific cover you
want, write to the artist in care of the publisher (most artists are
noted on the copyright page these days -- if not, write the
published publicity department and find out the artist's name) and
ask them if a print of the cover is available.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 06:08:01 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!celerity!ps@RUTGERS.EDU (Pat Shanahan)
Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers

burstein@sim.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Andrew Burstein) writes:
>brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes:
>>Well, since the discussion about Black protagonists being
>>misrepresented on covers has been so prevalent lately, I've been
>>wondering just how many books are out there that show them
>>correctly portrayed on covers.  The only one that comes to my mind
>>is the story "Matadora", by Steve Perry.
>
>I just bought a used paperback copy of _Golem100_ by Alfred Bester.
>The cover seemed to correctly portray Gretchen, one of the main
>characters, as black.
>
>However, I think the monster was misrepresented!  I think that
>almost all aliens, BEM's, etc. wind up getting mangled on book
>covers.  They either get horribly exaggerated, or look like an
>animal head transplanted on a human body.  I guess the artists
>don't want their study of human physiology to go to waste.

You may have found the explanation of another, related, phenomenon -
the difficulty sf artists seem to have in portraying fully dressed
women. Maybe they spend so much time painting female nudes in art
school that they can't draw women in clothes! Even when the clothing
a woman wears is fully specified in the text, she is usually shown
at most partially clothed on the cover.

I hope you are right, because a little more imagination in art
education might get more accurate covers.

There is another explanation that involves a different type of
incompetence.  The people who choose the covers and tell the artists
what to draw know that most sf purchasers are young, white, males
(YWM's).  They may have decided that the only real people are YWM's,
and so blacks, women, and alien monsters don't count. The rest of
the population on the cover should be portrayed in whatever way
makes them most interesting and attractive to the assumed YWM
purchasers. For black males, make them either invisible or white.
For women, undress them. For monsters, either make them totally
grotesque, and so no competition for the YWM's, or make them into
YWM's with strange heads, or make them into undressed females with
strange heads.

Publishers spend money putting covers on the books that are
presumably intended to encourage readers to buy the books - BUT MAKE
THE COVERS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE CONTENTS. The only
sensible policy is to totally ignore anything on the cover other
than the title, author's name, and price.  Blurbs that gave an
accurate, spoiler-free, summary of the setting and plot, with cover
art that reflected the appearance and flavour of the setting and
characters, would really help.

Pat Shanahan
uucp : {decvax!ucbvax || ihnp4 || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ps
arpa : sdcsvax!celerity!ps@nosc

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 15:36:23 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans)
Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers

perry@inteloa.intel.com writes:
>F.M.Busby's *Zelde M'Tana* is another novel with a black (female)
>protagonist that managed to get correctly onto the cover (of the
>paperback at least).

At the risk of provoking even more nasty responses than my "Why do
we hate Heinlein?" article, please allow me to venture a statement
to the effect that:

I think it is much easier to get a black *female* on the cover than
a black male.  I think this sort of racial and sexist discrimination
sucks.  Book publishers are as scummy as car dealers in my opinion.

By the way, allow me to recommend a (coincidentally black male)
author who has been mentioned in this discussion: Steve Barnes.
While I have not read most of his books, the ones I have read were
very well-written.  I have had the pleasure of meeting him in
person.  He speaks the same way he writes: informative,
entertaining, and engrossing.

Mark Stevans
cci632!mark

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jun 87 1255-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #290
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 87 1255-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #290
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 290

Today's Topics:

          Books - Brin & Card (2 msgs) & LeGuin (2 msgs) &
                  Lovecraft (3 msgs) & Robinson (5 msgs) &
                  Rowley

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 21:32:27 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: The Uplift War

Scott Turner writes:
>I just finished reading this, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I was
>disappointed with the characterization of the non-human races.  The
>chimpanzees (who barely passed Stage 3 of the Uplift test, whatever

The chims (chimpanzees) did not just *barely* pass the Uplift test.
The official in charge of the testing said that they were ready to
pass the next level (Stage 4) at any time.

>that means), were depicted as humans with slight deficiencies in
>creative thought and attention to details.  The Tymbrini were
>portrayed as "humans who don't understand metaphors".

What else did you expect the chims to be like?  First of all, they
are very close to humans genetically.  Plus they are being Uplifted
by humans who tend to favor human traits in their selection process.
If they were radically different than humans, I would be surprised.

I was also somewhat disappointed by the portrayal of the Tymbrimi.
However, you must realize that they are mainly represented by
Althaclena (sp?) who is very atypical.  Brin fell down in not
describing her special "borrowing" from her father.  This was an
important event in her character development and all we get are
second hand reports.

Her father is more representative of the species and does understand
metaphores, but treats them as novelties (as humans do when they
hear a new one).  One thing that is not portrayed well is
conversations between two Tymbrimi with the full flavor of empathic
modifications.

>The Gubru aren't portrayed as human clones, but their psychological
>adaptment seemed curiously lacking.  You'd expect a rather
>different view of the world from an avian, but the differences Brin
>portrays do not seem related to the racial background.  The
>Triumvarite and its reflection in the Gubru language (the tripling
>of verbs - but shouldn't the verbs have reflected the Military,
>Religion and Accounting of the sentence, not be synonyms?) was neat
>and well done, but a rather shallow characterization.

I agree with your comments above.  However, compared to _Startide
Rising_, the Gubru were fairly well depicted.  In SR, there were
about 15 different Galactics, none of which were developed at all.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 June 1987 22:22:25 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Orson Scott Card

From: mcnc!rti-sel!dg_rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
>Norman Spinrad notwithstanding, I enjoyed both Ender's Game and
>Speaker, the latter more than the former.  ...  ... [Card is]
>spending most of his time working on reviews (including, of course,
>his review magazine _Short Form_) ...

I saw Spinrad's review in _Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine_ (Mid-December
1986) in which he called _Ender's Game_ "an exemplar of successful
sci-fi as partially failed science fiction".  Has Spinrad commented
on _Speaker_?

How does one obtain _Short Form_?  Are these critical reviews or
just ordinary 'previews'?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 04:08:03 GMT
From: ic!grady@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

howard@utastro.UUCP (The Duck) writes:
>(Card must feel he has some important things to say, else why would
>he write anything non-commercial right now, when he's one of the
>hottest writers in the field?)

There was an article about Card in the June issue of Locus.
He says:
"Now that I'm doing so much reviewing, science fiction is much more
than half my writing.  But it's never been more than half my
'creative writing.'"

He proceeds to describe a number of projects he's working,
completely, unrelated to SF.  He also says his ideal would be to
teach at some Eastern university.  I was surprised - I thought he
mainly did SF, although I shouldn't be surprised.  A couple friends
of mine worked at Compute! magazine during a summer in high school,
and he was working there too.  OSC seems to have quite a range of
interests and abilities.

Steven

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 16:00:39 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Re: "A Wizard of Earthsea" Query

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>When Ged arrives at the College at Roke Island and is met by the
>Archmage, the Archmage's familar (a raven) says something in True
>Speech.  Later, the mention of the Court of Terrenon (spelling) to
>Ged recalls to him the raven, and indeed, one of the words the
>raven says is "Terrenon".
>
>Tied in with this is that the Archmage sees a danger to Ged from
>the North.  He isn't sure what it is, but it is almost surely a
>reference to the Stone at the Court of Terrenon (since at that time
>Ged's shadow is waiting on the border of the Dark Lands).  Given
>this, it seems likely that the raven foretold Ged's encounter with
>the Stone.  The question is, what exactly did the raven say?  Has
>anyone ever figured it out?

    When Ged arrived at the College, the raven said (and I'm sure
the spelling is wrong but phonetically it should be pretty close)
"Terrenon usbek orrek" which translates as "Archmage to be".  The
raven did foretell that Ged would become that Archmage, but
mentioned nothing about the encounter with the stone.

Regards,
Mark F. Cook
USMail: Software Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 19:12:06 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: "A Wizard of Earthsea" Query

markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM (Mark F. Cook) writes:
>    When Ged arrived at the College, the raven said (and I'm sure
>the spelling is wrong but phonetically it should be pretty close)
>"Terrenon usbek orrek" which translates as "Archmage to be".  The
>raven did foretell that Ged would become that Archmage, but
>mentioned nothing about the encounter with the stone.

How did you figure out this translation?  This would mean that
"Terrenon" has two meanings in the True Speech (Archmage & the name
of the Stone), which shouldn't be.  And this doesn't explain why Ged
would recall the raven when he hears about the Court of Terrenon.

I suppose Terrenon could mean something like "master of magic" so
that it would describe both Archmage and the Stone, but why would
LeGuin do this?  And why have Ged recall his meeting with the raven
when he gets to the Court of Terrenon if the raven's utterance had
nothing to do with the Court?

Also, dramatically this translation doesn't make much sense.
Ogion's note as much as promised that Ged would be Archmage someday.
Why have the raven repeat that prophecy in the same scene?

So I guess I'm doubtful of this translation.  How did you come up
with Terrenon = Archmage?

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 07:43:58 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!kato@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

I always thought the hardcover "The Dunwich Horror" was an excellent
introduction to Lovecraft. It's really a "best of" collection of
short stories and novellas, and contains my personal favorites "The
Shadow out of Time" (I think that's the title) plus a lot of neat
tales like "Pickman's model" and "The Music of Erik Zahn (sp?)" and
"The Festival".  Note that Arkham House has recently released
revised (from the original manuscripts) of all of Lovecraft's works.

The first Lovecraft I read was "The Shadow over Innsmouth" which I
found to be a really fantastic story. Gave me nightmares.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 20:55:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

An excellent reference work on Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos is
entitled something like "Lovecraft --- A Look Behind the Cthulhu
Mythos" by Lin Carter. The focus is on Lovecraft and the early days
of Arkham House. There is a good bibliography at the end, in which
Lin Carter also explains his criteria for including a story in the
Cthulhu Mythos. Hundreds of Cthulhoid books by other authors are
also listed. Unfortunately, this book is out-of-date (it came out in
the mid-70s). My copy was published by Granada/Panther Books in
England, but I'm sure there's a US edition.

There are occasional extensive postings of Lovecraft/Cthuloid
bibliographies on the net. I don't know who compiled the last one.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 01:18:18 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

My favorite H.P. Lovecraft novel has to be The Dreamquest Of Unknown
Kadath where Randolph Carter dreamed of that marvelous city 3 times
and was snatched away each time as he paused on the high terrace
above it.  The book also contains several other short stories.  What
makes this collection somewhat different is that these stories are
written in fantasy and wonder with little of the dark horrors of his
later tales.  Lovecraft (to me) makes writers like Edgar Allan Poe
and Stephen King mild by comparison.  Recently, two movies have come
out based upon Lovecraft novels, Re-Animator and From Beyond.  I've
seen a few Night Gallery episodes based on Lovecraft novels as well.
Pickman's Model is one that comes to mind.  I'd like to see more
Lovecraft on film.  Does anyone have a list of all of the movies or
short feature films of Lovecraft work?

Thanks in advance!

rj pietkivitch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 10:23 CST
From: <CORDWAIN%UMNACVX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: FIRST SF

   I like Spider Robinson's writing for his word play, and his
positive attitude.  I'm fond of the Callahan stories, _Melancholy
Elephants_ (some of it published earlier in _Antinomy_),
_Stardance_, and _Telempath_.  I've read _Mindkiller_, and I liked
how well it was written, but I had trouble believing in that kind of
a "world domination conspiracy" - too much like comic books for me.
(I have trouble taking any kind of vampire stories seriously, too.)
I have a copy of _Night of Power_, but haven't read it yet.
   Spider Robinson writes from his feelings.  He genuinely cares,
deep down inside himself.  I find it strange that he so strongly
identifies with Heinlein, because Heinlein seems to write from his
brain.  It appears to me that RAH thinks everything out, rather than
feeling it.  His character's behavior seems to me so carefully
planned, and stiff.  Nothing unexpected or inconsistent or
incongruous.  Robinson's characters have the charm of being
spontaneous, as well as thoughtful.

Jerry Stearns
Academic Computing Services
University of Minnesota
Bitnet:  CORDWAINER@UMNACVX

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Jun 87 14:35:13-PDT
From: Diana Egly <Egly%THOR@hplabs.hp.com>
Subject: Robinson & heinlein?

It would not have occured to me that fans of Spider Robinson would
be fans of Robert Heinlein.  And so I'm more than a little confused
by the assertion that this would obviously be the case.  Not obvious
to me...

I seek out books by Spider Robinson (I even have a copy of Antinomy,
cover and all); I don't seem to have any inclination to have
Heinlein books on my shelves although I've read several.  I see a
major difference between these two authors that is an important one
for me.  Heinlein's work consistently suggests that there is a noble
elite (maybe even as small as a single individual) which is to be
admired.  Robinson's works are more goodhearted about the bulk of
humanity; most of his characters have a core of goodness that can be
reached, that many of them act from despite other flaws.  Another
way to put this would be that Robinson's works inspire me to love my
species while Heinlein's inspire me to feel distain for almost all
of them.  And, as I said, this is a difference that matters to me.

So having stated a difference, what is the similarity that others
referred to?

Diana
Egly@hplabs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 17:33:35 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Spider Robinson

The only thing on my shelf by him is _Telempath_ which I quite
enjoyed.  Among other things, it postulates the effect upon
civilization if everyone's nose suddenly became a hundred times more
sensitive. The results can be quite amusing (and yes, punny!) while
at the same time smelling the end of civilization as we know it.

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 16:33:26 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Robinson & heinlein?

>It would not have occured to me that fans of Spider Robinson would
>be fans of Robert Heinlein.  And so I'm more than a little confused
>by the assertion that this would obviously be the case.  Not
>obvious to me...

I also consider Robinson's writing to be different from Heinlein but
Robinson is a truly fanatical fan of Heinlein. He also is not shy
about it.  He will tell you at the drop of a photon that he loves
Heinlein's works and that Heinlein walks on water as far as he is
concerned. That's probably the connection. I've met the guy at cons
and he's a really nice fellow but he does have this fixation about
Heinlein.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 13:21:43 GMT
From: gareth@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>I don't know anybody who likes Spider Robinson who doesn't also
>like Heinlein, but the reverse is not true.  My largest problem
>with Spider Robinson is that those characters which live in a world
>not too far removed from us in time seem to live in a society that
>I am totally unaware of.  I find it extremely jarring.  On the
>other hand, the Callahan's Bar Series is a great deal of fun, as
>are many of the shorts in *Melancholy Elephants*.

Well enter at least one person who liked Spider Robinson's Callahan
stories but can't stand Heinlein anymore. I used to read anything by
him that I could find but *Number of the Beast* killed that.

And Spider Robinson was on very thin ice with *RAH,RAH,RAH* ( in
*TIME TRAVELLERS STRICTLY CASH* ) where the major point of his
thesis is that Heinlein is permitted to write bad stuff and be
exempt from criticism due to his sterling service to SF in the early
days.

I don't think that any author is sufficiently strong to get away
with producing poor books without getting flak. Has Heinlein lost
the ability to produce the nice tight books like *Double Star* that
I grew up on.  Okay so a lot of his juveniles are only fit for
filling shelves when you outgrow the hero, but they were good
juveniles.  Do authors get paid by the word/page/kilo... these days
such that we have to put up with finding a good short story expanded
to 500 pages.

Gareth dons asbestos suit and waits.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth
DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 22:34:41 GMT
From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Bisson)
Subject: The War For Eternity...

Recently published over here in the UK (ARROW paperbacks) are two
rather good SF novels by Christopher Rowley. _The War For Eternity_
and _The Black Ship_

These are SF war stories... sort of a cross between Dune and Dorsai!
The ecology of Fenrille is well thought out, the hardware is
excellent...  There is a bit of sloppy science, but then we all have
to fudge every now and then, and the fudges do advance the story
(certain portions of TBS in mind here (but no spoilers...)).

Mr Rowley has some very good ideas...

...rail guns pulled by mule trains... certainly my favourite image
from the books.

There seems to be a third book soon... I'm waiting!

Does anyone know anything about it?

So if you like a good read, a lot of action, AND decent
characters...

Simon Bisson
ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jun 87 1307-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #291
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jun 87 1307-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #291
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 291

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brooks & Smith (2 msgs) &
                         Tolkien (4 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 09:09:47 EDT
From: WHITE%DREXELVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (John White)
Subject: Sword of Shannara

    I personally have no fault with Mr Brooks about the book _The
Sword of Shannara_ as a book in and of itself.  It WAS entertaining,
and a good read (except for the ending, which I still can't stand).
    The problem I, and others, have that make us almost universally
pan the thing is the pseudo-fact that it is an almost direct,
character-for- character, plot-element-for-plot-element rip off of
TLotR.  Now, I'm not saying that Tolkien was the only author able to
tell a story.  But, it still stands that Brooks wrote Shannara years
after TLotR came out, and there is little doubts where his ideas
came from.  Tolkien, on the other hand, had to put a lot of work and
study to collate the ideas he borrowed into the coherent story he
told.
    Also true is the fact that the other two books in the series
aren't nearly as Tolkien-derived as the first.  I have read all
three of the Shannara books, and I really enjoyed the second and
third, which prove that Mr Brooks can write a good story without
ripping off someone else (unless the person he ripped off is someone
I haven't yet read ;-).  But I still object to the first book, and I
have no idea how it made it into print, considering the effort
Christopher has been putting in to protecting his father's works.

John L White
WHITE@DREXELVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 87 07:36:13 GMT
From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: "Doc" Smith: Masters of the Vortex

[ pursuant to the discussion of Doc Smith's Lensman stories ]
[ Note some > are by one person, some by another.           ]

        ******LENSMAN UNIVERSE SPOILERS AHEAD******

> Internal evidence in _Masters of the Vortex_ (characters such as
> Kim Kinnison appearing in the story; place settings; general
> technology) suggests that _Masters_ occurs somewhere after _Second
> Stage Lensman_ but before or possibly during _Children of the
> Lens_.

Let's see:
        "...man in the galaxy, not excepting Kimball Kinnison."
        Storm Cloud was carrying a small dureum axe as SOP,
           therefore dureum was relatively common
        "...piracy...disappeared...after the fall of Boskone..."

I think I agree with you.

> Secondarily, it [plot of _Vortex_] revolves around inherent power
> of mind.  The implication here is that inherent power of mind can
> be SUPERIOR to the artificial power of mind produced by Arisians
> and a lens.

I would disagree.  It is *different*.  Superior in certain aspects
(eg, lightning calculation and range of accessible thought),
inferior in others (eg, usurping control of another's body and
universal translation).

> I also had doubts that it [Masters of the Vortex] was written by
> Doc Smith.  The language matches, but this was supposed to be in
> roughly the _Second Stage Lensman_ time frame and I kept thinking
> that if this clown is a Six, the highest ever measured, then would
> Kimball Kinnison and the other Second Stage Lensmen be Thirties or
> Fifties?

Perhaps this scale (Type One through Type Five, with Cloud the first
Type Six) measures intrinsic power of mind, as opposed to power when
augmented by a Lens?  Or possibly since, as the Fives told Cloud,
"...there are many Calls, of which the Call of the Lens is but
one.", there are also many dimensions along which a mind can be
classified.

I certainly never understood any of the Lensmen to be lightning
calculators, and with all the Lensmen in existence some should have
turned up if they are indeed at least Threes on the scale of One to
Five (or Six).  Most especially, the top Lensmen, the L2s (or
possibly the Children, depending on the timeframe you think _Vortex_
fits into), still had to rely on mechanical aids (another chuckle
for modern readers - they used slide rules!) for calculation.

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 21:34:09 GMT
From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond)
Subject: Re: "Doc" Smith: Masters of the Vortex

Well, how about this for a theory?  Clarissa, the Second Stage
Lensmen, and the Children of the Lens are the results of a
fantastically long breeding program by the Arisians. Now, way back
in, um, Triplanetary, when whats-his-name-of Eddore is having to
deal with Earth again and the Arisians are discussing it among
themselves, it is stated that "some general improvement of the race
(meaning humanity, being artificially accelerated) is unavoidable".
Maybe the wearers of the Lens are those humans that fall closer to
what the Arisians were breeding for, and Cloud is closer to what
humanity might have become without Arisian interference--and
therefore should be measured on a different scale.

This would lead me to speculate that perhaps the long, long range
future goal for this "universe" would be a race of guardians that
did NOT have to be ARTIFICIALLY accelerated into "guardianship"
(Level 3, whatever). Remember, at the end of _Children of the Lens_,
Christopher Kinnison is talking to a being to whom his "race" (well,
what else should we call them?) has done just that--because his
"race" is no longer adequate for guardianship.

Comments, anyone?

Susan Hammond
svh@CCA.CCA.COM
{decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 16:25:35 GMT
From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

I was once having a discussion with an acquaintance of mine about
Tolkien's works and he came up with what I thought a pretty original
idea about his works. As it hasn't come up in the discussion so far
I thought I might as well post something on it to see what you make
of it.
  The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed allegiance.
  For example the orcs were not only rad versions' of elve's but
they were also dark skinned and ugly.
 I of course poured scorn on this theory asking why in this case
were the dwarves not descriminated against as well? Then I read The
Book of Lost Tales pt 1 in which the only dwarves occuring were
greedy, money grubbing little (for want of a better word) dwarves.
(In the tale of Tuor? and the Dragon).
  Maybe he had a point, I certainly didn't think so but then I'm
biased in favour of Tolkien. Any comment however would be welcome.

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 15:00:54 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>  The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
>allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
>skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
>the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed
>allegiance.
>  For example the orcs were not only rad versions' of elve's but
>they were also dark skinned and ugly.

I don't think it's a racist thing.  ("Is this a black thing?" -- E.
Murphy) [Let me qualify this opinion by stating that I am one of the
philistines who didn't get into LoTR and never finished it.]  It
seems, from what you describe, that black is just a symbol of evil.
Evil entities are black just as the devil portrayed by Washington
Irving was a black woodsman.  Certainly racists embraced this mode
of depiction because it supported their ridiculous rantings, but I
don't think that evil characters being black is in itself a racist
phenomenon.

Matthew Belmonte
Internet: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu
BITNET: d25y@cornella
        d25y@crnlvax5
UUCP: ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 17:58:39 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>I was once having a discussion with an acquaintance of mine about
>Tolkiens works...
>
>  The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
>allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
>skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
>the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed
>allegiance.

It's unlikely to be an "apartheid" allegory, since LoTR was plotted,
and nearly all written, before Apartheid existed.

More plausible is that Tolkien simply copied the old Northern
mythological ideas that white=good and black=evil.  This is so deep
rooted that most heroic fantasy - which relies for much of its
effect on resonance with inherited myth - can diverge from the
stereotype only with difficulty.  A far more modern writer, Guy
Gavriel Kay, relies on the same idiom with his "lios alfar/svart
alfar" distinction (light elves / dark elves).

The disagreements between Tolkein's elves and dwerrow, on the other
hand, probably DO reflect a modern class notion - the tension
between agricultural and industrial England.  Elves live in trees,
in communion with nature, make things out of wood, &c.  Dwarves live
in caves, make things out of stone, and, while very clever (a term
of depreciation for one of Tolkien's background) will often cause
destruction through being over greedy or over clever.

Tolkien's own introduction to the new (Ballentine) edition of LoTR
is worth studying closely.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 20:24:09 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

Piers David Cawley writes:
>   The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
> allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
> skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
> the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed
> allegiance.

<Minor Flame> - Elrond and many of the elves had black hair.  I
believe one (or several) of the "races" of hobbits were brown
skinned. Bombadil didn't fit the typical fair haired and skin
description either.  Didn't Aragon, Farimir, and Boromir also have
dark hair? The proponderence of light hair was among the "Middle
Men" (i.e. the riders of Rowan).

I don't recall (here I *am* in doubt) any physical description of
Sauron beyond his eye, and a mention that he could no longer assume
a shape that was fair. I can't remember a specific referenece to
color.  (I'll gladly accept any reference to the contrary).

Tolkien's writing is intense with imagery. The use of color is
significant.  One of Tolkien's major themes is the strugggle of
light over darkness.  Black happens to be the color associated with
darkness.  Goodness is associated with light, darkness is evil. We
use the same imagry in Christianity. We refer to Christ as "the
light of the world" and to Satan's as the "Prince of Darkness".

The second age of Middle earth is known as the "Dark Ages". Do we
not also have a period in our own (European) history of the same
name?

When it is suggested to take the ring to Bombadil, the idea is
rejected by Elrond because Bombadil could not stand alone and
eventually would be defeated, and then "night would come".

There is reference to a time in Middle Earth before Morgoth's
dominion, "before darkness came from the outside".

There is the story of the creation of the stars, the two pillars,
the two trees, and the sun and the moon. All of which were created
by the "good" Valar, and were hated by Morgoth the "evil" Valar.

Ungoliant (and later Shelob) wrapped herself in darkness.
Galadriel's phial was a potent weapon against such creatures! Even
Bilbo described the spider's domain in Mirkwood as a "patch of
midnight that was never cleared away".

The orcs and other perverted creatures shunned light.

The Battle of Helm's Deep was won at the rising of the sun. The
riders of Rowan arrive at Minas Tirith (sp) at "cockcrow".

In all of this, I am, of course, talking of natural (day) light.
There are "foul lights" at Isengard, pale lights in the barrow
downs, candle lights in the Dead Marshes, and, of course, orcs never
seemed to mind the light of an ordinary wood fire.

I think that the significance of white and black in Tolkien is
merely imagry to describe light and darkness, no more than that.
After all, we do the same thing in the American culture (The good
guys always wear the white hats in westerns).

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98466
206-581-1322
{psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 12:43:08 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Shadowjack story

From:   drivax!macleod
> oleg@quad1.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>> I seem to recall there being at least one short story set in Jack
>> of Shadows but I can't recall the name of it or where it was.
>
> You are probably thinking of the illustrated story included in a
> strange kind of Zelazny anthology that arrived on the scene during
> the height of the Amber books craze, back around 1980 or so.  This
> was an interesting paperback that had lots of illustrations,
> illuminated treatments of Zelazny themes...

You're thinking of THE ILLUSTRATED ROGER ZELAZNY, which actually
started life as an 8-1/2 X 11 (roughly) trade paperback (and signed
hardcover). Much easier to read that way.

At any rate, that particular Shadowjack story was published as a
regular prose story entitled, appropriately enough, "Shadowjack".
It appeared in the collection THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT. Nota
bene, however: it's only in the edition of that book published as a
limited edition hardcover by Underwood-Miller, and not in the Pocket
Books paperback. There were three other stories as well that were in
the U-M edition and not in the paperback. I don't off-hand know if
the SFBC edition follows the hardcover or the paperback, but I
suspect the latter.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 87 11:10:10 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Blood of Amber...Zelazny

I, too, was waiting for this to come out in paperback before
reading.  BUT!!! Just happened to stop by a Walden book store 2
weeks ago, and there it was, for all of $3.50, in HARDBACK!!  Since
this is probably cheaper than it will be in PB, I naturally snatched
it up. It is considerably better than _Trumps of Doom_, in my
opinion. Made a lot of things clearer, didn't leave you hanging in
mid-air, and was generally a much more satisfying story (read, not
written in an hour!!).

Sheri

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Jun 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #292
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #292
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 292

Today's Topics:

               Books - Adams & Crichton & Grimwood &
                       Lovecraft (3 msgs) &
                       Fictional Computers (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 14:38:27 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Inflate your phone bill (or somebody else's) by calling +44 1 241
5845.  It's a London number run by Heineman, Adams' publisher, and
carries a recorded message from The Man Himself.

Dominic Dunlop

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87  10:51 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Critchton

>>batoma@lll-tis.arpa (Burt Toma) writes:
>> Anyone out there who enjoys Michael Crichton (... Andromeda
>> Strain, Congo) should try his new book 'Sphere.'  It's terrific.
>
>   What's it about?  Any non-spoiling information to wet our
>appetities?  Is it science fiction?

   I read the jacket at my local book store. Apparently, it is about
some alien artifact found at the bottom of the sea, and its
subsequent investigation. There was some mention made of alien life
forms appearing from this thing as well. Sounds a bit like
"Rendevous with Rama".

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 17:48:04 GMT
From: ames!styx!auspyr!mick@RUTGERS.EDU (Mick Andrew)
Subject: Book recommendation:  REPLAY by Ken Grimwood

WARNING: Mild spoilers ahead, but not half as bad as the sleeve of
the book.  If you like the sound(?) of what you read below, *don't*
read the sleeve!

   Suppose you die of a heart-attack at the age of 43, and wake up
   in your college dorm 25 years ago.  You have regained
   (re-acquired?)  your 18 year old body, but memories of your past
   life and world events are intact.  All around you is just as it
   was, and you know the future!  What would you do?

I read this book in one sitting (a *long* Sunday evening).  I found
the idea behing the novel most intriguing, and Ken Grimwood's plot
development did not let me down.

   Suppose that at the age of 43 in that second life you again die
   of a heart attack, and once more awaken in your college room.

Now you're getting the picture, and we're only on page 73.

I found out about this book via the local San Jose Sunday book
review.  The reviewer pointed out that this book should have been
promoted as a sci-fi novel, rather than a mainstream novel, to get
more attention.

The book is all plot and no character development, so I guess Mr.
Grimwood slipped into the style quite easily.

Good reading

Mick
{sdencore,necntc,cbosgd,amdahl,ptsfa,dana}!aussjo!mick
{styx,imagen,dlb,gould,sci,altnet}!auspyr!mick

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 19:52:00 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

hsu@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes:
> An excellent reference work on Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos is
> entitled something like "Lovecraft --- A Look Behind the Cthulhu
> Mythos" by Lin Carter. The focus is on Lovecraft and the early
> days of Arkham House. There is a good bibliography at the end, in
> which Lin Carter also explains his criteria for including a story
> in the Cthulhu Mythos. Hundreds of Cthulhoid books by other
> authors are also listed. Unfortunately, this book is out-of-date
> (it came out in the mid-70s). My copy was published by
> Granada/Panther Books in England, but I'm sure there's a US
> edition.

There was a US edition published by Ballantine around the mid-70s.
I don't think it's ever been reprinted.  And while it's
out-of-print, I'm not so sure it's out-of-date.  Carter essentially
takes each "Mythos" story and traces its roots (not as well as one
might hope, either).  Where I've found him most useful is in
tracking down the byplay and cross-references to Mythos stories in
the work of other authors of the time.  I'm not aware of any of this
info being superseded by recent discoveries, so the book isn't
really out-of-date.

With all the other Mythos stories that have appeared since then,
though, it is behind the times.

> There are occasional extensive postings of Lovecraft/Cthuloid
> bibliographies on the net. I don't know who compiled the last one.

I've got one that's sort of complete.  If there's interest, I'll
neaten it up and post it.

Anyone seen Edmund Berglund's "Bibliography of the Cthulhu Mythos"
or something like that?  I'd like to.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 20:05:01 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Pietkivitch) writes:
> Recently, two movies have come out based upon Lovecraft novels,
> Re-Animator and From Beyond.  I've seen a few Night Gallery
> episodes based on Lovecraft novels as well.  Pickman's Model is
> one that comes to mind.  I'd like to see more Lovecraft on film.
> Does anyone have a list of all of the movies or short feature
> films of Lovecraft work?

Well, off the top of my head, there's the "Pickman's Model" and
"Professor Pearson's (sp?) Last Lecture" episodes of NIGHT GALLERY.
Didn't NIGHT GALLERY also do Clark Ashton Smith's "The Return of the
Sorcerer", with Vincent Price?  There's DIE, MONSTER, DIE!, starring
Karloff and Nick Adams, based on "The Colour Out of Space".  There's
THE SHUTTERED ROOM, based very, very loosely (i.e., no Mythos) on
the Lovecraft/Derleth "collaboration" of the same name.  There's THE
HAUNTED PALACE, starring Price and Lon Chaney, Jr., title from Poe,
story from "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward".  There's my favorite
so far (haven't seen RE-ANIMATOR or FROM BEYOND yet), THE DUNWICH
HORROR, which succeeds despite Sandra Dee and presents a very
convincing Miskatonic U., Prof. Armitage, and Wilbur Whateley.  I
can't think of any others.

I'd *love* to see "At the Mountains of Madness" or "The Shadow Out
of Time" or even "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" done well, though.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 15:28:42 GMT
From: anne@cvl.umd.edu (Anne Becker)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

   Something interesting that I came across a couple of years ago--
The school that I then attended had in its record collection two
records of David McCallum reading H.P. Lovecraft aloud.  The only
story I remember that was on them was _The_Dunwich_Horror_. I
couldn't copy them, because the library only allowed cassete copies
of the records to be checked out, and I had no access to a
tape-to-tape. The recordings are read well, and allowed my
imagination to go further than it can when I sit down and read to
myself.
   Has anyone else heard these records and know where they could be
found?  I would enjoy hearing them again.

Anne Becker
anne@cvl.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 16:35:58 GMT
From: kaufman@orion.arpa (Bill Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes:
>PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
>There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to
>live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it
>did.  I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author.

Zelazny--I can't remember the title, but it came from Houseman's _A_
_Shropshire_Lad_ (along with "The Wind's Twelve Quarters").  It
does, indeed, appear in _Last_Defender_Of_Camelot_.  A great book,
but the quote you're looking for (paraphrased from memory) is "...
wandering to and fro on the earth, and in it."  (Sound familiar?)

mack@inco.UUCP (Dave Mack) writes:
> _When Harley Was One_ by David Gerrold (Computer achieves
> consciousness) Many of James P. Hogan's books are
> computer-oriented or feature computers.  (I seem to remember an
> author bio stating that Hogan used to sell computers for DEC.)

Actually he *designed* computers for them (electrical engineer) as I
remember.  BTW, I've never read _When_Harley_Was_One_--sounds like a
joke on Harlan Ellison's _Jeffty_is_Five_.  Any confirmation?

Bill Kaufman
seismo!ames!orion!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 14:47:08 GMT
From: fla7@sphinx.uchicago.edu (William Flachsbart)
Subject: Computers in SF.

This is a response to a posting for books and stories with computers
in them (realistic, I believe, was asked for.) Titles on left.
Sorry, but I can't recall all of the authors, so a good Books in
Print or card catalog should be a big help.

stars (1-4)     Title                                   Author
****    The Adolescence of P1 (book)            ?
**      Valentina (book)                        ?
****    Neuromancer (book)                      William Gibson
***     Count Zero (book)                       William Gibson
***     Burning Chrome (book)                   William Gibson
**      The Glass Hammer (book)                 K.W. Jeter
****    The Moon is A Harsh Mistress (book)     Robt. A. Heinlein
****    Press Enter (story)                     John Varley
                contained in the book Blue Champagne
****    Ender's Game                            Orson Scott Card
****    Speaker for The Dead                    Orson Scott Card
                a sequel to the above- computers more important
***     Caves of Steel, etc, etc, ad infinitem. Isaac Asimov
                in short, any of Asimov's robot stories.
***     2001: A Space Oddysey                   Arthur C. Clarke
*       2010                                    Arthur C. Clarke
**      The Starchild Trilogy                   Poul Anderson
                                                Jack Williamson
***     The Humanoids, etc.                     Jack Williamson
****    Sundiver                                David Brin
****    Startide Rising                         David Brin
****    The Uplift War                          David Brin
**      Cyclops (and the other books)           ?
*       Berserker (etc.)                        Fred Saberhagen

That's enough for now. I will be compiling a more complete list,
but it may take a few days.

William Flachsbart
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!fla7

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 02:17:39 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
> Others (though not as "realistic"): The computer in _The Integral
> Trees_ (can't remember its name); Multivac, in Asimov's _Winds of
> Change_.

   Well, Asimov has a lot of Multivac, Univac computers running
around in his short stories.  One of the more famous ones is "The
Last Question", which has Univac, which evolves into (my memory is
faulty) AC (for Analog Computer - or something to that effect), then
into something else...

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349
UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Jun 87 10:55:46-PDT
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: fictional computers

   Not exactly a computer; rather, a computerized interface with a
human brain (of a person with a hopelessly useless body):
   THE SHIP WHO SANG - Ann McCaffrey

From: Alex Granok
>Others (though not as "realistic"): The computer in _The Integral
>Trees_ (can't remember its name);

   It was "KENDY" (for the State); sort of an "expert system",
embodying the entire intellectual entity of a former `KGB' style
agent.

dale

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 1987  14:08 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: fictional computers

marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes:
>>There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to
>>live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth
>>it did.  I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author.

I'm not sure of the title, but a story along those lines is in the
Zelazny collection _The Last Defender of Camelot_, either that or
Spinrad's _No Direction Home_ (Hard to tell, I just lent both books
to a friend).

The story is called "For a Breath I Tarry" by Zelazny.  I'm pretty
sure it's in TLDC along with the "Stainless Steel Leech"

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 18:32:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!trekker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Can you Help me? - I need a list of books that are (1) fictional
>and (2) have a vaguely realistic computer in them. This for a
>reading list for a class I teach (Computers and Society).

    What about 2001: A Space Odyssey by Arthur C. Clarke?  I thought
he did a wonderful job in writing accurately the astronomical
references and descriptions, and giving a very realistic view of the
technology (especially of the HAL 9000 artificially intelligent
computer) for the year 2001.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 21:55:18 GMT
From: joanne@hpccc.hp.com (Joanne Hiratsuka)
Subject: Re: Computers in SF.

The Adolescence of P-1 was written by Thomas Ryan.  It's
in-and-out-of-print, so good luck finding it...

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 19:04:09 GMT
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

marcus@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Mark Levin) writes:
>There was also a great short story about a computer that wanted to
>live, and after travelling to the north and south poles of Earth it
>did.  I am sorry but I cannot remember the name or author.

Roger Zelzany
The Last Defender of Camelot
"For a Breath I Tarry"

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 18:40:13 GMT
From: sjc@arthur.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers & Robot Names

I haven't been following the discussion too closely, (I may even
have the wrong discussion) but did anyone mention the robot and
computer from the "Jetsons"?  The computer was called Uniblab and
the robot was Rosie.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 14:40:15 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Computers in SF.

THE ADOLESENCE OF P1 is by Canadian writer Thomas J. Ryan.  It's
been recently re-released by Tor, I think.  A major part of it is
set at the University of Waterloo in Southern Ontario and the CBC
made a TV film out of it for the FOR THE RECORD series a couple of
seasons back.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 02:40:16 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Computers in SF.

tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
>THE ADOLESENCE OF P1 is by Canadian writer Thomas J. Ryan.  It's
>been recently re-released by Tor, I think.  A major part of it is
>set at the University of Waterloo in Southern Ontario and the CBC
>made a TV film out of it for the FOR THE RECORD series a couple of
>seasons back.

Yes, I saw the CBC show, and although I was thrilled that it was
Canadian made, and NOT TERRIBLE!, I was sort of slapped in the face
when I saw that they expected me to believe that this P1, the small
artificial intlligence experiment which grew to seek out memory
areas big enough for it to live in, was written in BASIC on a PET
for godsake!

I know it is Science FICTION, but gimme a break!

It really was a good production, and that is rare in Canadian shows.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 17 Jun 87 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #293
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 87 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #293
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 293

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brooks & Delaney & Gibson (2 msgs) &
                    Book Info & Book Request & 
                    Hugo Nominees & Cover Art (4 msgs),
            Magazines - Omni

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Jun 87 12:24:24-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <yduJ@SPAR-20.ARPA>
Subject: Sword of Sha-Na-Na

>As for the Shannara series, granted that the **FIRST** book of the
>series was a lot like LOTR, but I have yet to hear of someone on
>the net who hasn't been able to finish it.

Now you have.  Read about one third of it, the only reason I was
able to keep it up that long was I keep thinking things like "OK,
now the DM is having a random monster encounter..."  Truly awful.

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 14:30:40 GMT
From: steinmetz.steinmetz!putnam@RUTGERS.EDU (jeff putnam )
Subject: Delaney

I just finished "Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand" (I'm
usually several years behind times in my reading).  _Very_
impressive novel.  It says in one of the blurbs that there is a
second part "The Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities"
(wonderful titles even!)  and that this should be published in 1985,
but I can't find this in bookstores or "Books in Print" or
"Forthcoming Books".  I remember seeing something about it recently
on the net and would appreciate hearing what's going on.  I would
also be interested in hearing what people think of this - it would
at least be a switch from Heinlein bashing.

jeff putnam
UUCP: steinmetz!putnam
ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 11:46 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: william gibson

I just discovered William Gibson a couple of weeks ago (got _Burning
Chrome_ out of the library).  I liked it so I ran off and gobbled up
_Count Zero_ and FINALLY _Neuromancer_.  Does anyone know if he has
written anything else?  Recommendations on same?

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 87 20:21:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: For and against cyberpunk

Kevin Maroney (kjm@dg_rtp.UUCP) writes:
>I've got "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones" fresh
>in my mind, so I feel obligated to respond to your statements.
>
>While it is true that this story is very much like cyberpunk...
>"Time..." is not a cyberpunk story...  Cyberpunk arises from two
>main thrusts: rebellion ("punk") and body- enhancement ("cyber").

But there are earlier works that (more or less) meet your
requirements.  K.W. Jeter's novel Dr. Adder deals with both body
enhancement (for sexual and other reasons) and rebellion (in a
decadent and dangerous Los Angeles). Many of Delany's earlier books
discuss body enhancement (e.g., Nova, Babel-17) though the
"rebellion" part is downplayed (but always present).

>Bester does [address the ramifications of body enhancement], in a
>few ways, but his approach to the stories is veryt different from
>the current cyberpunk vogue; he is more "literary", more concerned
>with those old verities of the heart like "love and honor and
>courage and pity" than a typical cyberpunk.

Here we run into problems of definition. How much (or how little) do
you want the term "cyberpunk" to cover? If you put thematic
restrictions on a genre (e.g., science fiction should only address
the interaction between man and technology), you would start cutting
out many works that are usually considered to be in that genre. For
example, who is to say Karl Hansen's Dream Games (which I feel meets
both of Kevin's criteria) is NOT about love and courage, albeit in
forms that are very alien to most people?

>>But what is Cyberpunk?
>>..... obviously, MIRRORSHADES! :-)

The problem with something (relatively) new and different that
tickles the fancy of the media: it gets labeled, watered down for
trendies and yuppies, becomes a fashion, an institution, and it is
impossible to recall its original identity and goal.

>Cyberpunk is the new mainstream...  Overall, it's a growing
>movement, and I'm very afraid that the humanists are going to be
>lost in a sea of "hard-hitting, action-packed cyberpunk adventure"
>and fantasty megologies.

I've already ranted against the name and concerns of "cyberpunk" in
an old posting that no one seems to have read ("Cyberpunk is not
punk").  The problem as I see it of cyberpunk is the first
commercially and critically successful cyberpunk novel (Gibson's
Neuromancer) is not a novel that is rich in revolutionary *ideas*
and approaches. Hence, as a source work for a new subgenre, it is
pretty dismal. Of course Gibson probably never intended it as such.
I did enjoy Neuromancer, and feel that Gibson has achieved his
effects very skillfully. But other than the powerful, almost visual
impact and surface virtuosity, there is little that is *new* to work
from as a source for future work.  Most of the ideas and concerns
have been addressed before.

From: brothers@sabbath.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)

>I say again: It is bad to genrefy (genreficate?).

And hurray to that! To paraphrase Artaud, genrefication is pigsh*t.

Science fiction readers would like to think they are on the cutting
edge of things. To some extent you can defend this thesis.
Unfortunately, the latest infusion of new ideas into science fiction
via cyberpunk is too wrapped up in punk-as-fashion and surface glitz
(I recommend Karl Hansen's flawed but interesting Dream Games as a
possible exception).  The real revolutionary ideas that accompany a
re-examination of technology have been around for a long time, in
the works of J.G. Ballard and William Burroughs, for example. (You
can kind of argue that Burroughs' Wild Boys is a cyberpunk novel).
It is ironic that Ballard and Burroughs are hailed as prophets in
the field of experimental music, while science fiction readers by
and large know them only by reputation.  Perhaps science fiction is
after all an optimistic, forward-looking genre that would like to
forget about its darker talents.

Bill Hsu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 10:45:17 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Book request...

news@riddle.UUCP (UNIX Netnews) writes:
>katinsky@swatsun (Matt Katinsky) writes:
>> These books are sometimes hard to find, but the few people I have
>> met who have heard of them, rave about them as much as I.  They
>> represent very different styles of fantasy writing.
>> 1) _The_Worm_Ouroborus_ (sp?) by E.R. Eddison. Filled with the
>> moral and
>
>For a predecessor of today's fantasy genre, William Morris is well
>worth a look.  His books, written around 1899, are

Further info on publishers, plus one
I forgot:

   The Wood Beyond the World
      Ballantine, 1969
   The Well at the World's End (two volumes)
      Ballantine, 1970
   The Water of the Wondrous Isles
      Ballantine, 1972
   The Sundering Flood
      Unicorn Bookshop, 1973
   News from Nowhere
      Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1970

Dominic Dunlop

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 87 11:24:04 EDT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: Another missing book..

   I remember reading a book years ao that I liked and I wonder if
someone can help with details (Title, author publisher..)
  The story is set in a human universe. There is interstellar travel
done "relativistically" in "neutrinic flyers" that sail on the winds
of interstellar neutrinos. Genetic(psionic?) conditioning is done
but to be truly effective it must be done on one's parents although
some gain is made if done on oneself. A fully conditioned person can
do all sorts of neat things like "sundive". Earth is watched but
un-contacted although on the verge of being contacted.  The
characters are on the Moon observing Earth. The "hero" of the story
is a partially conditioned, galactic, civil servant who has
falsified his files and escaped into the future by merely staying
ahead of his accusers. He will judge whether or not Earth is ready
for contact. At the Moon base awaiting the decision are
missionaries, traders, anthropologists, etc all waiting for our hero
to make his decision, all with a stake in its outcome and all
willing to influence the "hero" with money, sex, idealism etc.

Sooo anybody recognize this??

Jerry Freedman,Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 02:59:23 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Hugo Nominees List

[This list courtesy of NESFA's "Instant Message," which got it from
LOCUS.]

                     HUGO NOMINATIONS FOR 1987

BEST NOVEL:
   SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, Orson Scott Card
   COUNT ZERO, William Gibson
   BLACK GENESIS, L. Ron Hubbard
   THE RAGGED ASTRONAUTS, Bob Shaw
   MAROONED IN REALTIME, Vernor Vinge

BEST NOVELLA:
   "Eifelheim," Michael Bishop, ANALOG 11/86
   "Escape from Katmandu," Kim Stanley Robinson, IASFM 9/86
   "Gilgamesh in the Outback," Robert Silverberg, IASFM 7/86,
      REBELS IN HELL
   "R&R," Lucius Shepard, IASFM 4/86, Wollheim's YEAR'S BEST
   "Spice Pogrom," Connie Willis, IASFM 10/86

BEST NOVELETTE:
   "Thor Meets Captain America," David Brin, F&SF 7/86,
      HITLER VICTORIOUS
   "Hatrack River," Orson Scott Card, IASFM 8/86
   "The Winter Market," William Gibson, INTERZONE Spring 1986
      Stardate 3/86, BURNING CHROME
   "The Barbarian Princess," Vernor Vinge, ANALOG 9/86
   "Permafrost," Roger Zelazny, OMNI 4/86, Wollheim's YEAR'S BEST

BEST SHORT STORY:
   "Robot Dreams," Isaac Asimov, IASFM 12/15/86, Robot Dreams
   "Tangents," Greg Bear, OMNI 1/86
   "Still Life," David S. Garnett, F&SF 3/86
   "Rat," James Patrick Kelly, F&SF 6/86
   "The Boy Who Plaited Manes," Nancy Springer, F&SF 10/86

BEST NON-FICTION:
   TRILLION YEAR SPREE, Brian Aldiss and David Wingrove
   SCIENCE FICTION IN PRINT: 1985, Charles N. Brown and
      William G. Contento
   THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, Frank Miller, Klaus Jensen,
      and Lynn Varley
   INDUSTRIAL LIGHT AND MAGIC: THE ART OF SPECIAL EFFECTS,
      Thomas G. Smith
   ONLY APPARENTLY REAL: THE WORLDS OF PHILIP K. DICK,
      Paul Williams

BEST SEMI_PROZINE:
   FANTASY REVIEW
   INTERZONE
   LOCUS
   SF CHRONICLE
   SF REVIEW

BEST EDITOR:
   Terry Carr
   Gardner Dozois
   Edward L. Ferman
   David Hartwell
   Stanley Schmidt

BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION:
   ALIENS
   THE FLY
   LABYRINTH
   LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS
   STAR TREK 4: THE VOYAGE HOME

BEST PRO ARTIST:
   Jim Burns
   Frank Kelly Freas
   Tom Kidd
   Don Maitz
   J. K. Potter
   Barclay Shaw

BEST FANZINE:
   ANSIBLE
   FILE 770
   LAN'S LANTERN
   TEXAS SF INQUIRER
   TRAPDOOR

BEST FAN WRITER:
   Mike Glyer
   Patrick Nielsen Hayden
   Arthur Hlavaty
   Dave Langford
   Simon Ounsley
   D. West
   Owen Whitlock

BEST FAN ARTIST:
   Brad Foster
   Steve Fox
   Stu Schiffman
   Taral
   Arthur "Atom" Thomson

JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD:
   Lois McMaster Bujold
   Karen Joy Fowler
   Leo Frankowski
   Katherine Eliska Kimbriel
   Rebecca [Brown] Ore
   Robert [Touzalin] Reed

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 16:25:57 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Cover Art Posters?

>    Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the
>impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction
>novels?

The following artists do print posters of their cover art:

Michael Whelan - He does posters of all his cover paintings and
   wholesales them to various people. He used to sell them directly
   at cons but I don't recall him having a huckster table at the
   last few cons we were at.
Carl Lundgren - Does posters of all his cover paintings. His wife
   usually hucksters them at cons where they are appearing.
Don Maitz - Does covers which are normally wholesaled to hucksters.
Victoria Possner - Does posters, and both wholesales them and sells
   directly as well.
Boris Vallejo and Roweena have posters done of their works by a
commercial poster company.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 06:08:50 GMT
From: seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael)
Subject: Re: Blacks on SF covers

Actually, I stayed away from *Dawn* because of the cover--it made me
think it was a cheap romance novel.

Michael Gersten
seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 03:40:23 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart7.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Black protagonists correctly portrayed on covers

I recently looked at a glossy book on the art involved in the
_Dragonlance_ D&D modules and novels.  At several points, the
artists mention that they were strongly encouraged (read: ordered)
to make the illustrations more "sexy".  The cover painting for
_Dragons of Desolation_ originally showed Goldmoon in leggings--the
bare legs and leather miniskirt were painted in later.
   I found the book rather demoralizing.  I thought we'd come
farther than that....

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 22:36:32 GMT
From: jtk@mordor.s1.gov (Jordan Kare)
Subject: Re: Cover Art Posters?

trekker@bucc2.UUCP writes:
>    Does anyone know if posters or prints are sold of the
>impressive cover art you find on a lot of today's Science-Fiction
>novels?  I thought publishers would be selling posters of this art,
>but I haven't seen any ads.  Have you?

   At one time, publishers purchased artwork outright, including all
reproduction rights.  These days, the artists generally own the
artwork itself, and sell only limited reproduction rights to the
publisher.  Originals of covers are frequently for sale in
convention art shows (at impressive prices).  Sometimes the artist
will arrange for photo prints or poster reproductions, which are
sold directly by her or him, or through a dealer or specialty
publishing house.  As a case in point, dozens of Kelly Freas covers
(and many non-cover works) have been available as posters for years.
Polly Freas handled the distribution of them until her death last
year.  Barring major changes in plans, Kelly's posters will be
available from Off Centaur Publications (P.O. Box 424, El Cerrito CA
94530) in the future.

To my knowledge, no large SF book publisher has tried to market SF
art -- the markets are too different, and (for art) too small.

Jordin Kare

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 01:26:56 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck)
Subject: Re: Hacking the ice in _Burning Chrome_

SJONES@UMass.BITNET writes:
> I also came across alot of other good stuff in _Omni_ while I went
> through them moldering oldies. Is the fiction and pseudo-science
> still as good?  Financial considerations (good bureaucratic term)
> forced me to drop the subscription during high school, but I'd be
> interested in opinions.

Omni, paying among the highest rates in the business, still
publishes some of the best short fiction in the business. I've
always had a problem actually forcing myself to buy the magazine,
though, since what it comes down to is paying a premium price for a
little fiction wrapped in a sort of slick National Enquirer.

Zebra Books, though, has published four collections of Omni sf,
edited by Ellen Datlow, and these are a pretty good deal. (Titles go
like *The First Omni Book of Science Fiction*, . . .) A recent
watch-for-it list in Locus or SF Chronicle or like publication
mentioned a fifth such book, due out roughly this summer (?), and I
expect it will also be a winner.

The first four books include works by Gibson ("Burning Chrome",
"Johnny Mnemonic", "Hinterlands"), Orson Scott Card, George R. R.
Martin, Robert Silverberg, Edward Bryant, Harlan Ellison, Gene
Wolfe, Howard Waldrop (!) - on and on into the night. Excellent
anthologies, and, in paperback, a sight cheaper than buying the
magazines. (Ah, 'scuse me. Make that "considerably more cost
effective . . .")

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
Astronomy Department
University of Texas

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Jun 87 0808-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #294
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 87 0808-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #294
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 294

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 18:45:28 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Good Guys

grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
> Regret, yes, if appropriate.  I think the real problem that many
> people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include
> the reader on the side of the "good guys".  While mapping out his
> own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the
> readers beliefs or cherished institutions.

   There is nothing wrong with this. Good literature should
challenge you and make you think at least a little bit. That is one
of the reason why I read fiction of anykind.

> He makes it plain that you have to strive to become one of his
> chosen, not just be there or agree with him.

   The problem I have with Heinlein (post-STRANGER) is that unless
you were born in to some kind of elite group, you aren't worth
anything. No amount of "striving" will help you. A minute percentage
of the population is looked upon as great, while everyone is the
stuff you find when you turn over a rock. At least with Asimov
average people (for stories that is) have a chance to make a
difference. With Heinlein I never get the idea that I could be
invited to take an active part in the stories I have tried to read.
If the story doesn't invite you to join in, why should you care what
happens to the people within?
   I like Heinlein's stuff from the 40s and 50s, but after 1960
forget it.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 87 23:16:45 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: The Cat Who...

Anyone made up a list yet of the cameos in The Cat Who Walks Through
Walls, and where the characters made their original appearances?

Some of the characters sounded familiar, but I couldn't place all of
them.

I seem to remember a Skymarshal in TCWWTW.  There was also a
Skymarshal in Starship Troopers, but I don't remember either name.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 04:57:43 GMT
From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: The Cat Who...

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
> Anyone made up a list yet of the cameos in The Cat Who Walks
> Through Walls, and where the characters made their original
> appearances?

   Well, this shouldn't be too hard. Actually, if memory serves,
there were more "walkons" from other RAH books in THE NUMBER OF THE
BEAST than there are in THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS. Anybody
want to try a *tough* quiz, try spotting all the walkons in THAT
book; characters from RAH novels, other author's novels, real
people... too many for me to attempt. Anyway:

   TCWWTW = THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS
   TNOTB = THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST
   TMIAHM = THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS
   TEFL = TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE
   TRS = THE ROLLING STONES
   SIASL = STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND.
   MC = METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN
   GR = GLORY ROAD

First, major characters in TCWWTW who are from other books:

   1) Hazel Stone (Gwendolyn Novak) - Originally from TRS,
later in TMIAHM.
   2) Lazarus Long (alias, alias, alias...) - First appeared
in MC, later in TEFL. Had a walkon in TNOTB, too.

And the minor appearances:

   1) Hilda Burroughs - She, along with Zeb Burroughs,
Deetee Burroughs, Gay Deceiver, and the rest of that group, come
from TNOTB.
   2) The Tertians - These include Tamara, Galahad, the
Adorable Dora, Justin Foote, Laz and Lor, Maureen, Minerva,
Athena, Ishtar, and more. All from TEFL. Many also appeared
briefly in TNOTB.
   3) Manuel Garcia O'Kelly Davis - protagonist of TMIAHM.
   4) Cas(tor) and Pol(lux) Stone - Hazel's grandsons,
protagonists of TRS. Roger and Lowell Stone, from the same book,
are mentioned in TCWWTW, but do not appear.
   5) Jubal Harshaw - From SIASL. Brief appearance in TNOTB.
   6) Andrew Jackson Libby Long - possibly the record-holder
for appearing in the most Heinlein stories. Originally from
"Misfit", also in MC, TEFL, and maybe a cameo in TNOTB, I forget.
   7) Star Gordon, and Rufo - From GR. And where was Oscar,
we wonders?
   8) Captain John Sterling - Mentioned in TRS, but only as
a fictional hero.

One additional list: folks who look like they might have dropped in
from another book, but *I* sure can't place 'em.  Anybody else know
for sure? Maybe from another author's work? I noticed a refugee or
two from Doc Smith and Edgar Rice Burroughs appearing.

   1) Uncle Jock (Campbell)
   2) Sky Marshall Samuel Beaux
   3) Ezra Davidson

   News for all you Heinlein fans out there: if you haven't yet
heard, a sequel to TCWWTW, TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, is due out
next Monday, June 15. Run, do not walk, to your local bookseller's!

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!borealis!barry

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 05:35:25 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!sdiris1!res@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert Sanders)
Subject: Re: cat wall walker cover

Just for info, the sequel (I think, haven't read it yet) is out to
Cat etc... it is "To Sail Beyond the Sunset", and seems to revolve
around Maureen Johnson Long, Lazarus' mother/wife... and pixel the
cat survives...

Skip Sanders
sdcsvax!ucsdhub!jack!man!sdiris1!res
Phone : 619-273-8725 (evenings)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 21:03:11 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

>...mighty gald that your skin color matches mine...  Now, who the
>hell is the white man on the cover?...
>
> He ain't Lazarus, 'cause as I recall the guy is fairly tall and
>does NOT have red hair

Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is)
Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares).  This
makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and
Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black.  That still leaves
the fellow on the cover a mystery.  Or there is an error or two in
the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 03:50:37 GMT
From: berry@askone..arpa (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is)
>Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares).  This
>makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and
>Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black.  That still
>leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery.  Or there is an error or
>two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match.

Oops!  In the book, is there not considerable fuss over the fact
that Ames/Campbell's new foot does NOT match the rest of him?  This
is how he discovers that the foot's "anonymous donor" was in fact
Lazarus Long.

Berry Kercheval
berry@mordor.s1.gov
{ucbvax!decwrl,siesmo}!mordor!berry
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 05:26:31 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Heinlein book

From:   swatsun!hartman (jed hartman)

> nair@unc.cs.unc.edu (Anil Nair) writes:
>> Can somebody tell me the name of the Heinlein book which has the
>> stories:
>> 1.By his bootstraps
>> 2. And he built a crooked house
>
> I don't know if there's a collection with BOTH of those stories
> (JMB, where are you??), but the second one is in 6xH (Six by H),
> a.k.a.  _The_Unpleasant_Profession_of_Jonathan_Hoag_...

No Heinlein collection has both of those stories, but there is an
anthology with both: CLASSIC SCIENCE FICTION, edited by Terry Carr,
Harper & Row, 1978.

"By His Boostraps" appears in Heinlein's THE MENACE FROM EARTH.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 16:03:44 GMT
From: jdeifik@venera.isi.edu (Jeff Deifik)
Subject: To Sail Beyond The Sunset (a mini-review)

                     To Sail Beyond The Sunset
                       by Robert A. Heinlein
                 416 pages published by Ace/Putnam

(some mild spoilers follow)

This book is the autobiography of Maureen Johnson, Lazarus Long's
mother.  It describes her life, from youth through being rescued by
Lazarus Long.  It is a somewhat laid-back book, and is more
autobiography than hard-SF.  There is the usual amount of time
travel, multiple universes, and sex.  I think that TSBTS will appeal
to a wide audience (even more than TCWWTW).  It seems pretty mild
for Heinlein. One thing it did is to continue tying together all of
Heinlein's work, like TNoTB and TCWWTW.  I enjoyed reading it, but
it isn't a great book like SIASL was.  I thought that it was well
worth the price.

Jeff Deifik
Nameserver Internet: jdeifik@turbo.isi.edu
New Internet: jdeifik@isi.edu
Old Arpa: jdeifik@isi.ARPA
Csnet: jdeifik%isi.edu@net.cs.net
Bitnet: jdeifik%isi.edu@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Uucp: ...!ihnp4!seismo!jdeifik@isi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 03:20:40 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

>nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it
>>is) Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares).
>>This makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo"
>>and Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black.  That still
>>leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery.  Or there is an error or
>>two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match.
>
>Oops!  In the book, is there not considerable fuss over the fact
>that Ames/Campbell's new foot does NOT match the rest of him?  This
>is how he discovers that the foot's "anonymous donor" was in fact
>Lazarus Long.

On page 297, you'll find the only "description" of the foot in
question.

"Anyone who bothered to look could not fail to see what I meant.
Four masculinefeet - Three were clearly from the same genes:
Lazarus' two feet and my new foot.  The fourth was the foot I was
born with; it matched the other three only in size, not in skin
color, texture, hairiness, or any detail."

I took this to mean that at a glance, you would not notice a
difference, but anyone who looked closely would see the difference.
If he's wearing a white foot on a black leg, anybody but the blind
beggar would see it.

I admit, this is somewhat open to interpretation, but it seemed
clear when I originally read it.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 87 23:40:49 GMT
From: seismo!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Author Query (..Crooked House)

scott@hou2g.UUCP (Scott Berry) writes:
>My brother has a question which I thought might be answered here.
>Please MAIL responses to me, since I don't usually read this group.
>
>Who wrote the story "And He Built a Crooked House", and where has
>it appeared?  My brother is trying to find a copy.  Thanks.

This short story by Heinlein - and the Magic Inc. novel - are the
two only Heinlein works I like.

Just a personal point of view, and about Heinlein as a *great*
sf-writer.

Kent Sandvik
ADDRESS: Vallgatan 7, 171 91 Solna Sweden
PHONE: +46 8 - 55 16 39 job, - 733 32 35 home
ARPA:  enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:  ksand@mapper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 03:55:17 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart7.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is)
>Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares).  This
>makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and
>Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black.  That still
>leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery.  Or there is an error or
>two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match.

Not to argue with the main point--the cover is almost certainly
screwed up-- but unless they're tissue typing for a lot more factors
in _Cat_ than they do today, it is quite possible for a black,
especially one of North American background, to be an acceptable
tissue match for a white.  Only a few dozen genes are involved,
several inherited as a linked group, and the most common Caucasian
tissue types are quite common in American blacks.  (You can't use
tissue antigens to reliably determine an individual's race, although
you can easily distinguish <groups> of Caucasians and Negros by
frequencies.)
     Taking a break from a research project on this very system....

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 01:10:26 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)

grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>Regret, yes, if appropriate.  I think the real problem that many
>people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include
>the reader on the side of the "good guys".  While mapping out his
>own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the
>readers beliefs or cherished institutions.  He makes it plain that
>you have to strive to become one of his chosen, not just be there
>or agree with him.

Say what?  Heinlein's not trying to get you on anyone's side -- he's
trying to make his readers THINK!  For example, he is on quote in
EXPANDED UNIVERSE as saying that STARSHIP TROOPERS was *not*
intended to say that his proposed government/voting rights were the
best ones or the ones he wanted; it was intended to make people
CONSIDER what such a government would be like.  And hopefully to
gain insight into government and voting practices in the process.
(The Witness knows that most U.S.A. residents need to learn one heck
of a lot more about both!)

Unfortunately, ``_thinking_ is an activity to which all too few
minds are accustomed.''  (Not a quote from Heinlein, in case you're
wondering.)

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210
{decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 01:13:04 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

berry@askone..ARPA (Berry Kercheval) writes:

>>nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it
>>is) Ames gets

Tertius, not a hospital planet.  (Although there is a
hospital-plus-rejuve center built into the Long mansion.)

>>a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares).  This makes
>>less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and Lazarus
>>matches Ames, then Lararus is also black.  That still leaves the
>>fellow on the cover a mystery.  Or there is an error or two in the
>>book, and all those fellows shouldn't match.
>
> Oops!  In the book, is there not considerable fuss over the fact
> that Ames/Campbell's new foot does NOT match the rest of him?
> This is how he discovers that the foot's "anonymous donor" was in
> fact Lazarus Long.

About the only thing I understood to match was the immune system,
i.e. the leg wouldn't be rejected.

I doubt that Lazarus is black, from the "Da Capo" of TIME ENOUGH FOR
LOVE.

Brandon S. Allbery
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210
{decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Jun 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #295
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #295
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 295

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 15:31:02 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: ST:TNG Set Visit #1

Okay, here is the first of a couple of reports on my visit to ST:TNG
(memories get fuzzy, so I'll forget stuff).

Unfortunately, the net won't handle sketches of the sets, but then,
I can't draw anyway.

******SPOILER WARNING******

The ST:TNG sets are located on three soundstages on the Paramount
lot (one more than the original series) They're kept locked at all
times they are not in use to keep employees from "borrowing" parts
of them.

Some general comments on the sets first:
Everything is carpeted, and all the walls are fabric covered or
otherwise not made to look like metal/plastic.  There are alien
looking plants in the hallway (see TMOST for GR's definition of an
alien looking plant).  The hallways are redressed sections of the
movie hallways with the A-frame structures removed to make them much
more roomy.  In addition, new halls have been built.  Doors are all
labled by function of the room behind (one says "Droid
Maintenance"...that's an Andy Probert Joke).

There are two bridges, the main bridge and the battle bridge.  The
main bridge is circular, with a second level in back that ramps down
to main floor level at about 2 and 10 o'clock (all locations are
relative to facing toward the viewscreen from the center, the
viewscreen being 12 o'clock.)  Slightly behind center are three
chairs for the Captain, Number one, and the Councelor.  Behind them
is a rail, which doubles as a way to keep people from falling off
the raised second level and as a console.  On the rear wall (from
about 5 to 7 o-clock) are normally unmanned consoles that can
however fulfill any function.  When in operation, a chair pops out
from underneath.  In front of the three chairs are Ops and Comm, the
equivilant of the navigation/helm console.  At about 9 o'clock is
the door to the captain's office/ready room (more on that later) and
a turbolift.  At about 3 o'clock is the emergency turbolift to the
battle bridge.  For those of you with writers' guides, it matches
the sketch in there very well.  More details on the bridge when I
have my copy of that sketch in front of me (I left it at home).

The captain's offic/ready room, as you enter it, to your left is a
low couch with terrarium end-tables.  The couch pulls out to a
double bed.  Straight ahead is a wrap around desk/conference table
for small discussions.  Behind is a window, and an aquarium with a
live lion fish and coral.  Off to the left is the Captain's private
toilet (no the set for the toilet isn't built, it's just a doorway).

Also off the bridge is a conference room, but it wasn't dressed when
I visited, so all I can tell you is that it's curved, it has
windows, and it's redressed to become sick bay (or vice versa).

On the wall of the bridge at about 8 o-clock is a plaque that says
"USS ENTERPRISE, NCC-1701D" Where it was built (Somewhere over Mars)
and in fine print "Chief Designer - A. Probert, Grand Admiral - G.
Roddenberry" You'll never read it on a TV screen...too small.

The battle bridge is smaller and more military looking (it's located
in the secondary hull).  Part of it is a redress of the movie
bridge.  It looks more like the "old" bridge than the main bridge
does, with a center chair and ops/comm console with other consoles
behind and to the sides.  It also has a row of lights under the
viewscreen that scrolls from left to right, just like the old
series...that was deliberate to give it a feel of familiarity.

Engineering (the set) is a three deck high set with a working open
elevator between floors.  A painting makes it look larger.  There is
a large central feinberger, with consoles and grid floors around.
There is a small shielded control room off to one side (what do they
use for shielding?  Why, transparent aluminum of course!).

The transporter room looks like a transporter room (seriously..it
looks pretty much like the tv one).

They have one cabin set, which I assume will be redressed/walls
added to be everyone's cabin.  It was under construction when I saw
it, and in family mode, with two beds, two doors, and a hallway that
went off to the bathroom.  It is located on the outside of the disk
on the upper side, and there are windows looking out (That part can
be turned upside down so they are on the lower disk looking
down...pretty sneaky).

There is a large empty, metallic gray room which is the holo-deck,
but once they turn on the holography, it looks like the park where
they did location shooting :-).

On one hallway intersection wall is a large cut-away side view of
the ship with major rooms labeled.  Oh for a photographic memory!  I
can tell you there is a place for docking the Captain's Yacht!

The third soundstage is for planet sets.  They've built a permanent
rocky set complete with canyon, caves, and a horizon with changeable
color sky.  It can even be flooded and used as a lake!

I'll break this now, and come back with a few bits on the first
episode/ costumes/ cast etc.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 15:32:18 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: ST:TNG Visit #2

******SPOILER WARNING******

They were shooting on the planet set they day I was there.  Present
were Number One, Troi, Yar, LaForge and Data.

The uniforms are jumpsuits with black pants (except for Troi's) and
color coded torsos, black again across the shoulders and low heeled
boots.  Troi was wearing a denim jacket over her uniform, so I
didn't see the skirted version (they were in rehearsal, I assume the
denim jacket is not part of the costume...or may be it is).  Number
One's uniform was maroon, I don't remember the others.  Data's
makeup looked vaguely metallic or plastic, I don't know how it will
film.  I saw no specifically alien features on Troi.

Number One has exactly the same hairstyle as the young (TV) James T.
Kirk.  This may be coincidence, or maybe Kirk's his hero?

The little I picked up about the plot.  After they get the
introductions out of the way, the Enterprise travels to "Farpoint",
where there is a large technically advanced station to serve them.
But down on the planet itself (Deneb IV...yes it may be where slime
devils come from) there is a stone and wood culture.  Why?  The
answer involves traveling underground (I told you there was a cave
set) and...that's all I know, really.  Believe me, if there had been
a script lying around I would have looked.

That's all I remember off the top of my head, but if you ask
questions, maybe I can remember more.  Post the questions, I'm sure
everyone's interested.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 16:20:34 GMT
From: cd0v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

>Recall that Uhura did take the navigation console in Balance of
>Terror,

In my previous message about this subject, I said that Lt. Uhura
took command in the animated episode "The Lorelei Syndrome". I meant
to say "The Lorelei Signal", not "..Syndrome"

Chris Durham
Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu
BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma
usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 22:27:42 GMT
From: welty@sundown.steinmetz (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

I'm going to relate some of what is the usual practice in the US
Navy, in the hopes of showing how a real naval organization works
...

In the early days of the steam navy, the US did distinguish between
line officers and engineering officers.  This system was abandoned
around the turn of the century, and the line and engineering corps
were combined.  An officer today might go to school to learn a new
speciality, and then serve in that speciality for a while, but is
not thereafter limited.  In fact, the Bureau of Personnel tends to
try to broaden the background of officers.  You get officers who
have commanded a gun turret on a battleship, then served as staff
members on shore, then been communications officers, then exec of a
ship, and so forth.

Being communications officer on a ship certainly was no bar to
taking command.  On the first day of the Naval Battle of
Guadalcanal, the communications officer of the cruiser San
Francisco, Bruce McCandless, ended up in command of the entire
column (that the SF was flagship for), after the captain, admiral,
and other senior staff were killed.  He received a Medal of Honor
for his actions after taking command.

Certainly, I wouldn't think that a quality organization would put
bright officers such as Uhura into dead end jobs, and being
communications officer for the Enterprise forever would seem to be
rather limiting to me ...

Richard Welty
CSNet: welty@crd.ge.COM
Internet: welty@ge-crd.ARPA
Usenet: {seismo!rochester,ihnp4!chinet}!steinmetz!crd!welty

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 14:28:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!acf3!sxt2443@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

>>Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they
>>never get to command.
>>
>>Does that make any sense?

Yes it does, if you take the US Merchant Marine as an example.
Engineering officers are considered below decks officers and are not
in the chain of command (command requires a different license).

Brian Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 14:33:40 GMT
From: langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>Not quite true.  There were a number of episodes where Scotty was
>given command of the ship (the episode where Kirk and a landing
>party were stuck on the planet which was sort of like ancient Rome
>- I forget the name - and "The Gamesters of Triskellian" (sp?),
>just to name two).  Also, Star Fleet has, basically, three
>classifications of officers - Engineering, Sciences, and Command.
>Spock and Uhura are in Sciences (of course, you can validate
>Spock's

  How can you tell Uhura is Science? If the uniform color had
anything to do with group, she would be engineering (red). Science
is Spock, Bones, and the nurses (blue). Command is Kirk, Sulu, and
Checkov (gold). Am I correct? Horridly Wrong? In the wrong Universe?
:->

John

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 15:06:33 GMT
From: hplabs!intelca!mipos3!bverreau@RUTGERS.EDU (Bernie Verreau)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Visit #2

1:  So where did you get the invitation?

2:  Is the series is being filmed or taped?

3:  Is Roddenberry supervising production?

Bernie Verreau
uucp: {hplabs|amdcad|qantel|pur-ee|scgvaxd}!intelca!mipos3!bverreau
csnet/arpanet: bverreau@mipos3.intel.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 01:35:09 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!westpt!sunybcs!ugachan@RUTGERS.EDU (Alvin M. Chan)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

In the episode "The Galileo Seven", where Spock, McCoy, Scotty and
some other cannon fodder are sent out to explore a big bizarre
cloud, whilst the Enterprise is currently supposed to make a
rendezvous with another ship to deliver some serum to fight a plague
on some colony.  But the shuttlecraft gets lost, crashlands on some
planet inhabited by BIG hairy 'people'. These inhabitants kill
numerous crewmembers from the shuttle as well as from searchparties
from the Enterpoop (Bloom County influence :-)).  But, this is Mr.
Spocks 'real' command of a ship of his own, and Dr. McCoy really
starts nagging Spock when things get wrong.  Also there was one
particular portion where Spock suddenly cracks up and starts
repeating over and over again "I don't know what I did wrong, it's
not logical, it's not possible, I don't know what I did wrong, every
thing I did has been the wrong thing etc etc etc" Very untypical of
Spock yet also the last part of the episode where Spock makes a
GAMBLE on trying to signal the Enterprise by jettisoning the
remaining fuel of the shuttle and burning it in orbit is interesting
also.

Alvin M. Chan
SUNY at Buffalo
csnet:  ugachan@Buffalo.CSNET
arpanet:  ugachan%Buffalo@csnet-relay.ARPA
uucp:   ..!{nike|watmath,allegra,decvax}!sunybcs!ugachan
BITNET: ugachan@sunybcs.BITNET
        V127N64X@UBVMS.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 20:25:50 GMT
From: cmcl2!psuvax1!pitt!bgsuvax!mcdermot@RUTGERS.EDU (mark mcdermott)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Interface Associates) writes:
> I am unconvinced.  Note that Kirk almost always ascends the
> Captain's Chair from the starboard side and leaves it the same
> way.  Unsteady, he left the Chair and said, to no one in
> particular, "take over."  According to the chain of command as it
> seems to be on the Enterprise, the helmsman is the closest thing
> there is to an OOD, and therefore outranks all other officers
> during his watch except for the Exec and the Captain.  To give the
> Conn to Chekov would be a serious breach of the chain of command
> so long as Sulu had the helm.  As I do not recall his explicitly
> naming Chekov, I assumed that he spoke to Chekov to save his
> strength, not to give him the Conn.

Ahh, but Sulu was NOT there in "Journey to Babel"!  He was off
participating in filming "The Green Berets"!

I am positive that was the episode Nichelle Nichols has mentioned as
being the one where Uhura SHOULD have taken the Conn, but was
overruled by the networks.  Phil Foglio did a great cartoon about
that in his "Star Trek Primer"

Mark McDermott

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 19:26:13 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: ST:TNG sketches NO SPOILERS (sorry)

To the best of my (VERY!) limited ability I have sketched set
layouts for Star Trek:The Next Generation.

If for some unknown reason you want a copy of my scribbling, send a
self-addressed standard business envelope with enough U.S. postage
to get a normal 1st class letter to you.  All I want to do is stuff
'em, lick 'em, and drop 'em in the mailbox.

Included are sketches of the main bridge, captains office/ ready
room, conference room, sickbay, engineering, transporter room and a
typical cabin.  Most are blue-print like layouts with some side
views.  There is little or no detail, I didn't have camera,
sketchbook or yardstick on the sets.

The Writers/Directors guide has a nice sketch of the main bridge,
which is accurate, as well as a couple of sketches of the ship.  Has
somebody got Lincoln Enterprises' address handy?

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 08:42:45 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

drp@lll-lcc.aRpA (David Preston) writes:
>I thought McCoy was the most senior officer after K&S; in
>Menagerie, Spock surrendered to McCoy, after explaining to him that
>he had committed mutiny, and that it was up to McCoy to arrest him
>as the most senior officer.  Of course, McCoy was not in a command
>position(I'm a DOCTOR not a Starship Captain :-)

Sorry, I forgot to mention McCoy.  You may well be right, I can't
remember the exact ranking of the good doctor (Scotty is a Lt.
Commander - in the series, anyway! :-) - if I remember correctly).
However, he falls under Sciences, whose personnel don't command
ships (with the notable, though already explained exception of
Spock).  For that matter, I think that the poor man would probably
have a nervous breakdown if he was ever given the con! :-)

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Jun 87 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #296
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 87 0837-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #296
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 296

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bester & Crichton (2 msgs) &
                        Eddings & McCaffrey & 
                        Tolkien (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 14:37:26 EDT
From: wyzansky@nadc.arpa (H. Wyzansky)
Subject: Re: The Stars My Destination (Bester)

From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
>It is made perfectly clear that all windows are of one-way glass so
>no one can look in and memorize the coordinates of a room, yet time
>and again, when our heroes need to get someplace they can SEE, they
>don't teleport. Sam is killed because he jumps onto a
>(non-functioning) anti-grav beam instead of "jaunting".  At the
>end, when "the burning man" is in the basement of St Pat's, they
>have to tunnel to him from across the street instead of simply
>jaunting down next to him. Now really. This is a bit much. First
>off, why doesn't he simply _burn up_???? His clothes are on fire.
>Has he miraculously become some sort of god??? Second, they can
>clearly see him, yet they have to go across the street into a
>boarded up building, locate the basements, locate the correct
>direction, and dig their way thru?? This would take HOURS!!!  And
>how do they know (especially as _I_ didn't) that since his clothes
>are already on fire, he isn't long since expired whilst they are
>pawing around down there in the (excessively fortuitous)
>tunnels??????

They couldn't jaunt down to where the "burning man" was because the
area was filled with all kinds of debris and wires and, as is
explained, it is extremely unhealthy to jaunt into an area which is
already occupied by solid objects.  Also, Gully was both Space AND
TIME jaunting after the explosion and he was not in the burning
basement that long by his time scale.

>Then there is the radioactive character (forgot his name) who can
>only stay in the same room with anyone for a max of 5 minutes a
>day.  What sort of magick is it that keeps HIM alive, when he can
>manage to kill an orchid with his radioactivity just by cupping it
>in his hands???

Dillingham (sp?) had some kind of weird metabolism that enabled him
survive the accident.  Remember when the book was written.  There
was an idea back then that humans could actually adapt to radiation.
For reference, see Piper's short story about the dictator from the
100th century who came back to the 20th and was radioactive and the
conversation about the myth of "deadly radiations" that USED to come
from nuclear plants.

>The mazes and baffles are never adequately explained. How do they
>work?  Purely featureless?? Why can't I envision myself in the maze
>at Macy's, and jaunt there??? Or is it constantly changing??  But,
>so what. I'll just envision myself in the women's room instead. Or
>wherever. With a stocking over my head. Then I'll grab what I want
>out of the jewelry counter or the shoe department, and jaunt away.
>??How did any store survive???

The litany is constantly repeated: Location, Elevation, Situation
(LES).  To jaunt to a place, it is required to know its spacial
coordinates with regard to where you are.  You could visualize the
women's room all you want, but if you don't know EXACTLY where it
is, you will probably wind up slightly dead.

>And why the silly artificial seeming barriers of distance?? 5
>miles, 25, 100, 500, 1000??? No wonder Foyle was able to surmount
>these. So could anyone, if they believed they could...or so we find
>out. How did it happen to take so gosh-darn many years before
>someone had the nerve to try, and once the outer planet types had
>proof that someone had jaunted 650,000 miles, why did they need
>Foyle??  They should just go out and do it themselves??? Where's
>their initiative? The man was UNCONSCIOUS when he jaunted that far.
>What made them think, even if they caught him, that he could tell
>them anything about how he did it?

Actually, several had tried, and failed miserably (and fatally).
Foyle did not know where Nomad was, and yet he was able to jaunt
there.  That was in fact what was different about his ability, that
he could jaunt somewhere (somewhen) without the conscious
visualization of LES that was required by everybody else before.  As
to how they expected to get the info, they were able to figure out
how Jaunt did it, they could study Foyle in the same manner.

>A character that can only see in infra-red vision??? And why should
>that prevent her from jaunting??  She can SEE after all. She can
>tell where she is. Just because it looks different from how other
>people see it...

A mutation. Maybe her parents were around Dillingham too much %).
But she could not get enough LES information to be able to visualize
both her current location's coordinates and the relative coordinates
of where she wanted to go.

>Moreover, if visualizing is so all fired important that you must
>actually SEE a place before you can go there by jaunting, I really
>don't see how they can expect to go to the stars. But the end of
>the book was about as clear as the end of _2001_ on this..lots of
>colors (scenes) but no explanation. Then he passes out. The end.

As I said, this is where Gully Foyle was different, and the end of
book hinted that he was indeed able to teach how he did it.

I thought the novel was rather good and have reread it a couple of
times in the last thirty-or-so years.

By the way, the novel is included in Boucher's 2-volume anthology:
_A_Treasury_of_Great_Science_Fiction_, which ought to be available
in most libraries that have a half-decent SF section.

Harold S. Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 18:22:35 GMT
From: batoma@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Burt Toma)
Subject: Re: Sphere by Michael Crichton

In response to hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai)'s query about SPHERE by
Michael Crichton:

SPHERE is about an alleged UFO found abandoned in the middle of the
Pacific (near Tonga).  The navy assembles a group of scientists
(among them a psychoanalyst) to investigate the craft.

From there, the plot really takes off and Crichton weaves in so many
twists and counter-twists that it always keeps you guessing.  The
suspense is almost palpable.  For those of you that read Andromeda
Strain and (like me) abhorred the "cop-out" ending, fear not --
Sphere is well-written from cover to cover.  It is also not as
technical as Andromeda Strain or Congo (good or bad, however you
take it).

A final note: the book is very new and has not been published in
paperback.  I paid $17 for the hard cover version, but I felt that
it was worth it because Crichton is definitely my favorite SF
author.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 22:04:52 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Sphere by Michael Crichton

cardboard characters and inaccurate science; it fails as mainstream
fiction and as SF. Some SF is entertaining in spite of its defects
because the storyline or SF premise is interesting: "Sphere" fails
on these counts, too.

My comments are presented as assertions about the reviewed book
because I find reviews that are full of "in my opinions" wimpy.  All
comments are, of course, my opinion: disagree with them if you like,
but don't flame me for having opinions. Item (5) below contains mild
spoilers, but it's vague enough that I don't think it will spoil
anyone's fun.

Wait for the paperback edition on this one, folks; it's a stinker.
If you really have to read it you might check it out at your local
library.  "Sphere" fails as fiction and as SF for several reasons:

(1) It's full of glaring scientific inaccuracies. At one point,
    a zoologist says: "...You know an octopus is smarter than a dog,
    and would probably make a much better pet..." An octopus may be
    the smartest invertebrate, but it's no match for a dog
    intellectually. At another point, text starts appearing on a CRT
    in spiral format (!) and one of the characters starts talking
    about "askey codes." I'm not very familiar with coding theory,
    but my assumption is that Crichton really wanted to talk about
    ASCII codes (my apologies to him if there really is something
    called an "askey code"). And anyone who knows how a CRT works
    knows that you can't get spiral text on a plain old terminal.

(2) It's full of other inaccuracies as well. Consider this passage:
    "... The alarm on his chest badge began to beep. He looked
     down at it. Even in the darkness, he could see it was now
     gray..." At the time, the character was in a lab with a sealed
     water-tight hatch about 1000 feet below the ocean's surface.
     There was no mention of windows, and even if there were there
     wouldn't be enough light from the surface to see a badge.

(3) It's poorly written, abounding in cliches ("...Beth Halpern,
    the team zoologist, was a study in contrasts..."), flat and
    uninteresting writing ("...After two hours of monotony, the
    cluster of ships appeared unusually interesting..."), and
    unclear or ambiguous writing ("...Barnes hesitated just a
    fraction before answering [NOTE: a fraction of WHAT??]...").

(4) Finally, the characters are poorly drawn and some of them are
    downright annoying. It's a pretty sad situation when the reader
    starts cheering when one of the good guys gets killed off. The
    single most annoying and unbelievable character in the book is
    Ted Fielding, an astrophysicist, who is a cartoon character
    constantly annoying the readers with his cliched quotations from
    "literature." Check out THIS ridiculous exchange:

    "'...This is exciting!' Ted said. 'Fantastic! Unbelievable!'

     'So,' Barnes said, still watching Harry, 'you should all get a
     good night's sleep if you can.'

     'Innocent sleep, sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleave of
     care,' Ted said. He was literally bobbing up and down in his
     chair with excitement..."

    This has to be one of the most hilarious bits of dialogue I've
    ever seen in fiction. It rivals the dialogue in the movie "Plan
    9 From Outer Space." I'd be totally embarrassed if I'd written
    it.

(5) The storyline is basically not that interesting. Somebody
    finds what appears to be an alien artifact, people are sent to
    investigate the artifact, the artifact does things to some of
    the people, there are crises, the crises are resolved, at the
    end the artifact is still an enigma. Ho Hum. How many times are
    second-rate writers going to redo this worn old SF theme?

Anyone out there want to buy a slightly-used copy of "Sphere?" :-)

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: Belgariad

From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Tony Hutchinson)
>And now the big question...I've heard rumours on this group about a
>sequel. Are they true ? And if so, when can we expect it ?

The sequel should be out and in the stores in hardcover at this very
moment.  The first book is called GUARDIANS OF THE WEST.  The series
of five new books is called the "Mallorean".  He plans to also have
two prequels to the Belgariad.  I got this information from Walden
Books' APR/MAY XIGNALS interview with Eddings.

NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN
Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Pern

From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
>Second: Anyone out there know when (or If) the next story in 'The
>Dragonriders of Pern' is coming out?

In the June Locus p. 7 they say that McCaffrey is finishing up
DRAGONS DAWN for summer 1988 Del Rey publication.

NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN
Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 14:15:17 GMT
From: think!craig@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Stanfill)
Subject: Tolkien/racism (long)

In this posting, I will talk about the way things work in Middle
Earth, rather than speculate about Tolkien's possible beliefs.

First, parentage is of paramount importance.  Aragorn is destined to
be great, not because of who he is but because of who his ancestors
were.  More precisely, the male heir inherits the full stature of
the father.

Second, no amount of time dilutes this principle.  Aragorn traces
his ancestry back to the Elf friends of the first age, and through
Tinuviel to the Eldar and even to the Maiar (am I correct in his
lineage? I've never traced it out in that much detail).  This
ancestry is the reason, and the sole reason, for his POTENTIAL
greatness (potential in that he could have failed to realize his
potential).

Third, this applies to entire peoples.  The Dunedain (including the
men of Gondor) are descended from the First Age Elf-friends.
Essentially all other men are descended from peoples of lesser
stature who have aided the Enemy for ages; ten of these are scarcely
worth one of the Dunedain (in battle, in song, etc.).  This stature
is reflected in height, intelligence, and length of life.

Fourth, this increased stature is (I believe) a gift from the Valar,
a reward for their faithfulness in the wars of the First Age; the
gift is inherited from generation to generation.

Fifth, it is difficult to rise above one's ancestry, but it does
happen: the Rohirrim have, as a result of their long alliance with
Gondor, gained stature, and their Kings are only a little below the
Kings of Gondor.  Even more strikingly, Frodo: who has nothing at
all to boast of, in terms of ancestry, yet does what the mighty
could not hope to accomplish.

Finally, as a note, things work very differently for Men and Elves:
successive generations of Elves decline in stature, so when
Gil-Galad died (e.g.), all were correct in saying his like would not
be seen again in Middle Earth; his children could not hope to attain
his stature.

As Legolas remarked (with a touch of iroy), men often fail in their
promise, but rarely in their seed.

Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist and
racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people, have a
very large role in determining who one is.  BUT: something of this
nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world in which
nobility of birth has real meaning.  Here Tolkien has taken a
concept from the mythos he was drawing on (including the King as
Hero), and elevating it to a fundamental part of the way things
work.

Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract,
repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world.  But, in
terms of literature, it works.  Would Lord of the Rings be the same
without Aragorn, this no-body from no-where (who just happens to be
the highest-born man in the world), jumping in and leading the
armies of the West?  I think not.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 15:09:51 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Tolkien (Light and Dark)

pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>  The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
>allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
>skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
>the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed
>allegiance.

The imagery of lightness = good and darkness = evil is a very old
one, found in many mythologies upon which Tolkien drew.  It is
unfortunate but inevitable that such powerful symbols have then been
associated with racial characteristics such as skin color which have
undoubtedly evolved as a protective device against overexposure to
sunlight.  Reading Tolkien's Letters, I find nothing to support any
racist motives, although Tolkien certainly could be described as
conservative.  Interestingly enough, there is one letter which was
sent to Tolkien by a German during the Nazi era asking if his name
was Jewish. He replied that to his regret, he did not have the honor
of it being such. This showed his attitude toward the treatment of
the Jews at that time.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Jun 87 0801-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #297
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 87 0801-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #297
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 297

Today's Topics:

            Books - Barnes & Brin (3 msgs) & Crichton &
                    Eddings & Gibson & Spider Robinson &
                    Wells & Williamson & Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 20:28:19 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Steve Barnes

farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes:
> And for other covers with non-black blacks, how about Steve
> Barnes' "Street Lethal", which had a black protagonist, and was
> written by a black, but whose cover featured a guy who was, if
> anything, Indian.

As an aside about Steve Barnes' writing, I think he has a real
talent for description.  To try to convince you of this, I'll do
about the same thing that (if I'm remembering right) Niven does to
show off Saberhagen's flair for description in a lead-in to _The_
_Empire_ _of_ _the_ _East_, where he quotes the description of the
fight between Zapranoth and Drafut (great stuff, by the way, to put
an aside inside an aside).  In this case, I'll quote Barnes'
description of part of the fight between Dearborne and Shackley, two
of the characters in _The_ _Kundalini_ _Equation_.  The following
excerpts are from the climax of the story, so you might not want to
read them if you are spoiler sensitive.  Dearborne fights as a
berserker might, and Shackley is a highly trained martial artist.

*** POSSIBLE SPOILER: ***

   [...] Dearborne's civilized veneer fell from him like a skin of
   ice, and with an impossibly swift lunge forward, he became a
   torrent of teeth and nails and murderous insanity.

and Shackley's response when finally cornered by Dearborne...

   [...] now Gates had an opportunity to see just exactly what it
   was to be a human being at its highest level of efficiency.  In a
   sustained, eye-baffling phrase of movement Shackley's legs and
   arms, knees and elbows and shoulders cannoned out and snapped
   back as if his spine were elastic, attaining the percussive speed
   of the most explosive drum solo in history.

If you think at this point that Dearborne is losing the fight, you'd
better think again.

*** END POSSIBLE SPOILER ***

But back to generalities.  Despite his impressive flair for
description, apparent in both _Streetlethal_ and _The_ _Kundalini_
_Equation_, I tend to get annoyed at Barnes' style.  He introduces
assumptions and surprises into the story in ways that are too
obviously just there to advance the plot or to be striking to the
reader, and thus I tend to get jarred out of the story by these
surprise twists, rather than just being surprised by them.

Despite this, I'd tend to read most anything by Barnes.  I don't
consider what I've read to be the very best and wouldn't rate any of
it higher than **+ or *** on the OtherRealms scale, but it has its
moments as above, and I expect he'll improve.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!dg_rtp!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 22:19:00 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: The Uplift War

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU (Scott "Dr. Pain" Turner) writes:
>I just finished reading this, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I was
>disappointed with the characterization of the non-human races.
[They tend to be just like humans, with some added species-specific
foibles.]
>
>Anyone else bothered by this?

Yeah.  And when *I* write my first SF novel, my aliens are going to
have thoughts that would *never* occur to a human being, such as...
...  well...

Until we get to know some non-human intelligences, we have a hard
time being sure which characteristics of our own psychology are
peculiar to our species and which are universal.

I agree that non-human characters should not just be humans with
added weaknesses; they should have some added strengths as well.
But - to imagine these added qualities vividly is a long step
towards having them yourself.  For instance, suppose, in my unbegun
novel, there is a non-human species that are naturally good at
"systems" thinking, and much less inclined than we are to seek
oversimplified one-directional cause & effect relationships.  Now
suppose one of these beings is up against a really complicated
situation.  To tell the story of what (he) does, I have to decide
what (he) would do.  I have to think like (him).  At the very least
I have to give my reader the impression that I have done so.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:  ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
         106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone: (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 15:15:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: The Uplift War

*** Mild Spoiler Warning ***

>>The Gubru aren't portrayed as human clones, but their
>>psychological adaptment seemed curiously lacking.  You'd expect a
>>rather different view of the world from an avian, but the
>>differences Brin portrays do not seem related to the racial
>>background.  The Triumvarite and its reflection in the Gubru
>>language (the tripling of verbs - but shouldn't the verbs have
>>reflected the Military, Religion and Accounting of the sentence,
>>not be synonyms?) was neat and well done, but a rather shallow
>>characterization.
>
>I agree with your comments above.  However, compared to _Startide
>Rising_, the Gubru were fairly well depicted.  In SR, there were
>about 15 different Galactics, none of which were developed at all.

1) I disagree; I though the Gubru were rather well portrayed, and
were quite different from the Terrans (humans and chims).  I
certainly didn't expect a world view based on flight; remember, they
only had vestigial wings.  By the way, the tripling wasn't just
verbs; check the novel.  At least as often, some other key word or
phrase in the sentence was tripled.  And toward the end, when the
new queen is losing one of her mates, she doubles rather than
triples some phrases.  Nice touch.

2) In SR, a few of the Galactics are developed to a degree
appropriate to subsidiary characters.  The best developed is the
Soro fleet-mother, Krat.  Another almost as well done was the
Synthian sneak observer (can't recall her name), with her corps of
little clients (Wasoon?).  I felt bad when her ship was flung out
into space....

------------------------------

Date: 22 June 1987 18:07:55 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Uplift War by David Brin

haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>I think David Brin has been looking at the Covenant books with
>envy.  Now *he's* branching out into 'improved English'.  From one
>paragraph [italics mine]:
>   "...and of course a gaggle of *cachinatous* humans...  She
>   remembered her attitude then, upon seeing so many of the
>   *atrichic, bromopnean* creatures."
>With a good dictionary, a decent language background, and knowledge
>of context, one can figure out what the words mean.

20% of a good dictionary would nearly suffice.  90% of the words I
looked up started with "a", "b", or "c".  There were no d's, and
perhaps a couple e's and f's.  There was only one word I looked up
which started with a letter in the last half of the alphabet:
"nulutative" -- couldn't find it in Webster's 2nd; does it have any
connotation of "skeptical"?  Seems likely to me that this was
intentional on Brin's part, having seen other examples of incidental
word play in his oeuvres.  Remember the "zievatron" in _The Practice
Effect_?  If a Bevatron generates a billion electron volts, and a
Tevatron generates a trillion ev, ... .

Actually, I thought Brin's uncommon word choice was sometimes
justified.  For example, there's probably no simple substitute for
"allochrous".  However, for the most part, I don't think obscure
words add anything to Brin's stories, whereas they are essential to,
say, Gene Wolfe's, or to the works of such scholarly word-smiths as
the Inklings (Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, et al).  By the way, has Gene
Wolfe ever produced a complete glossary for _The Book of the New
Sun_?  I really enjoyed the glossary for _The Shadow of the
Torturer_ which he included in _The Castle of the Otter_.

Paul R. Pudaite

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 10:58 PDT
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
Subject: THE SPHERE by Crichton (liner notes)

"In the middle of the South Pacific, a thousand feet below the
surface of the water, a huge spaceship is discovered resting on the
ocean floor...

Rushed to the scene is a group of American scientists who descend
together into the depths of the sea to investigate this astonishing
discovery.

What they find defies their imaginations and mocks their attempts at
logical explanation.  It is a spaceship of phenomenal dimensions,
appartently undamaged by its fall from the sky.  And, most
startling, it appears to be at least 300 years old...

Has the ship come from an alien culture? From a different universe?
From the future?  Why, initially, are there no creatures on the sea
floor, and then, suddenly, swarms of "impossible animals," of whole
new species?  Who--or what--is transmitting messages onto the
scientists' computer screen...messages that frow increasingly
hostile?  What is the giant, perfect, metallic sphere-- clearly not
made by man, and seemingly impendetrable by him--that they find
inside the spaceship?  And--most crucially--what is the
extraordinary, the terrifying power that threatens their undersea
habitat, and then their very lives..."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 87 17:39 EST
From: Matt Kimmel <KIMMEL%ecs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Re: Belgariad

   Yes, there is indeed a sequel to thhe Belgariad.  It's called
"The Mallorean", and the first book, "Guardians of the West", is out
in hardcover now.  It was very good.  The new series looks
promising.

(WARNING - Mild Spoilers Ahead - Nothing more than what's on the
cover - Do not read if you have not finished the Belgariad)

   The book starts about six weeks after the end of the Belgariad.
It starts out calmly, but the plot quickly develops.  It seems that
the prophecy is not yet fulfilled.  There will be one more
confrontation between the Child of Light and the Child of Dark.  Not
only that, but 'Zakath is organizing the Malloreans for a war
against the West, and the Bear-Cult is making trouble.
   All of the characters from the Belgariad are in this one, as well
as some new ones.  It promises to be just as good as the Belgariad.

(See?  Those weren't too bad)

   It's definitely worth buying in hardcover.  I think it's
discounted if you're a member of Waldenbooks' Science Fiction &
Fantasy Club.
   Does anyone know when the second book, "King of the Murgos", is
coming out?

Matt Kimmel,
KIMMEL@UMAECS                       (BITNet)
KIMMEL@ECS.UMASS.EDU                (CSNet)
KIMMEL%ECS.UMASS.EDU@RELAY.CS.NET   (Internet)
...!seismo!UMAECS.BITNET!kimmel     (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 16:09:38 EDT
From: JVHWKZA <JVHWKZA%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Gibson-like Sci-Fi

   I am relatively new at this so if this has been discussed before
please excuse the duplication.
   I have recently read _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_ both by
William Gibson.  I was wondering if there are any other
books/authors that fall into the same genre as the those two
stories.  This is the first Sci-Fi I have ever read that I felt
envious of the characters because they were there and I wasn't!
   Thanks in advance for any help!!

Keith E Aylsworth
AKA Cyberpunk
BITNET: JVHWKZA@IUP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 13:50:17 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Spider Robinson & RAH

The same day I posted a previous comment on Telempath being the only
thing I'd read by SR, I also jotted down in my little grey notebook
(wherein I jot down noteworthy things) that the Callahan's Bar
series sounded interesting. I also read in the <<SPACE
Digest>>(available on arpanet) that coincidences are
everything...and that thinking about something just before it
suddenly occurs is really only coincidental.

Bearing that in mind, I have an "only a coincidence" to report: That
very same evening I went charging down to Washington National
Airport, arriving breathlessly only 2 minutes after the plane was
due...about 20 minutes before it showed up. Having neglected to
bring something to do while I waited, I was pawing through the book
stand (which is pretty grim in the Commuter Terminal). I overturned
a bound stack of month old magazines in the back of the bottom shelf
(had read everthing else on the shelves above) and there was a paper
back "left library book"...._Callahan's Secret_!!!  I was able to
talk the clerk into letting me have it, once I pointed out the due
date in the back...8 May 87, for the Warwick Library.  I finished it
in 2 nights, even with company....

I am, and have been for many years, a considered RAH fan. The
adjective is because he used to be my favorite writer. Then came
grokking, over which I shrugged and said, "Everyone has bad days."
But with Number of the Beast, I gave up entirely. I do like
_Friday_, but simply refuse to read _Job_, _Cat_ and anything from
there on out.

But!  I very much like SR's 2 books, and almost all of RAH's older
stuff.  I don't see any inconsistency with that...why shouldn't I be
able to appreciate more than one writer's style???

Sheri

(PS Loved the preface to _Callahan's Secret_...was terribly
dissappointed to learn he's already happily wed.  Sigh!!  8-)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 20:49:00 GMT
From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: H.G. WELLS

Are there any H.G. Wells fans out there?  I, myself, particularly
enjoyed his short stories, especially those in a somewhat fantasy
related vein.  There was one about a man who visited a strange alter
world, and came back reversed, another about a "Christmas Egg" which
enabled one to see into another world, and a very interesting one
about a man who's dreams seemed to be the waking life of someone in
the future.  I really think that Well's tends to be overlooked these
days.

ami silberman

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 17:57:48 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: re:  Another missing book

>...The "hero" of the story is a partially conditioned, galactic,
>civil servant who has falsified his files...  He will judge whether
>or not Earth is ready for contact. At the Moon base awaiting the
>decision are missionaries, traders, anthropologists, etc all
>waiting for our hero to make his decision...

"The Trial of Terra", by Jack Williamson.  Ace published it as a
$0.35 paperback.  I don't know whether it's been reissued.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 01:48:40 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (Michael D King)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos

From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
>The latest Publisher's Weekly has the announcement on the new
>Zelazny book.  Sign of Chaos, the third in the second trilogy of
>Amber, will be published by Arbor House in hardback in October.
>
>Also, Locus announced that Zelazny has signed for two more Amber
>books, bringing the size of the second Amber trilogy to a total of
>five books (which matches the size of the first trilogy, for that
>matter).
>
>So don't expect this book to finalize everything....

I really enjoyed the original Amber series, but this new collection
is ridiculous.  After I read _Trumps of Doom_ with its obvious
I'm-going-to- continue-this-in-a-sequel ending, I was ready to say
"Fat chance!"  I don't mind novels blossoming into a series, but
when it is so obvious, especially from a writer of Zelazny's
caliber, it borders on the ludicrous.  Now we hear that it is going
to be thumping along for four more books? Come on!  As short as each
of the books will be (I am assuming that the rest of the series will
be a skimpy as the first) why not package them in two volumes.  Oh
well, Madison Avenue strikes again!

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Jun 87 0816-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #298
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 87 0816-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #298
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 298

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 09:15:19 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes:
[Lots of text deleted....]
>I just wasn't being clear, I guess.  I know Scotty sometimes
>commands, But never the other occasional engineering types who sit
>at the engineering console.

Actually, that one wasn't your fault.  I re-read it after answering
it, & said to myself, "Oops!  THAT'S what he meant!"  You were
clear, I just mis-understood you.

>Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the
>Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that
>yucky gold color).

True, she wears a red uniform, but then so do Security personel, and
they SURE aren't engineering! :-)

>I tend to agree with your analysis that there are basically three
>specialties: Command, Engineering, and Science, and I would expect
>top command in space to typically bypass Sciences and Engineering
>in favor of Command personnel.  On the other hand, the senior-most
>members of other groups (Chief Engineer, Chief Science Officer) are
>probably more command-oriented than technical specialists.  Not
>having any Navy experience to fall back on, I have to rely on
>common sense instead :).

I'm afraid that I must confess that I don't have any military
experience to fall back on either, but I like to think that after
20+ years of being a Trekkie, I have an idea (the bearest hint of)
how things more-or-less work in Star Fleet (this is NOT to say that
I think that you don't!). :-) I've got a friend who used to be a
Marine who's almost as big of a fan as I am, and has a reasonable
idea of how chain-of-command works, so I try to turn to him on those
tricky ones!

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 06:48:09 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: Star Trek -- Ensigns and Crewmen

bryan@druhi.att.com (BryanJT) writes:
>I always assumed that Lt. Uhura was a technical specialist holding
>the rank of an officer to qualify her as a bridge-crew member
>(clearances and that sort of thing maybe) but not in the
>line-of-command.  Ensign Chekov, while not fully an officer, is
>clearly in training for a line assignment and might be permitted to
>assume command responsibility.  ...

Yet another proof that the ST chain of command was drivel.

"Ensign', so far as I can determine, has always been a commissioned
officer in every armed force which has employed the rank.  Depending
which episode we wish to cite, an ensign is an officer or an
enlisted man.  Many episodes contains Chiefs and crewmen, while
others appear to contain nothing but officers.  Worse, many contain
no evidence of anyone who isn't a lieutenant except for Kirk, Spock,
McCoy, Scotty and Chekov.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 09:35:00 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

Thanks for the information regarding how the Navy command structure
works.  I really didn't have any idea as to how it works.  This is
Star Trek, though, and Star Fleet is not really Navy (in the episode
where the Enterprise found a black hole the hard way and the crew
found themselves in a low orbit around Earth in the past, Kirk said
in answer to the USAF's fighter pilot who they had taken aboard
question, "We're a combined service").  Maybe ST:TNG will follow a
command structure that's a little more logical.  Please bear in mind
that the answer I gave was one to try and find the most plausible
reason for some obvious (sp?) inconstancies (I'd much rather do that
then say that Star Fleet is being run buy a bunch of sexist pigs!
:-) Bear also in mind that GR had a hell of a time with the network
people - he originally wanted the ship to be populated by 50% women
and they wouldn't let him do it.... they finally let him have 30%.
The truth of the matter probably is that the network would have had
a fit if he had tried to let Uhura have the con).

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 12:34:06 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek novels

I have to take exception with the statement that Star Trek novels
are badly written.  True, there are some turkeys (Mutiny on the
Enterprise springs to mind), but others like THE FINAL REFLECTION
and THE WOUNDED SKY are classics in they're own right, not just as
part of a classic series (no flames please).  The current novel,
DREAMS OF THE RAVEN, is an excellent look at Dr. McCoy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 16:48 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: The Next Generation
Cc: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)

>I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has
>not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright.
>Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is
>not smart. In my opinion.

It HAS been released, and is sold by Lincoln Enterprises, run by
Majel Barrett Roddenberry.  It's not in the catalog I have, but
interested folks could probably write for the price if they're
interested.  P.O.  Box 691370; Los Angeles, CA 90069.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 16:53 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: The Next Generation
Cc: cmcl2!uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!bones@RUTGERS.EDU

I don't think there are many fans who are upset about ST returning
to tv.  I know Mary Lou Dodge says The Globe completely misquoted
her.  Sounds like they really had to go out of their way to make the
fans look bad.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 17:09 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek

Yes, Uhura did get command in the animated episode "The Lorelei
Signal" but I hardly think that counted.  I remember reading
something, before the animateds came out saying "And Uhura finally
gets command!"  But it's only because ALL the men on the ship were
incapacitated.

Rumors from the con circuit are that the transwarp experiment failed
and the new warp system IS NOT transwarp.  Darned if I know what it
is, though.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 17:42:23 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Warp Drive
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>

I also remember hearing somewhere that warp n = (n**3)*c, but that
does appear to be wrong.

"That Which Survives" was on this week, and provides an interesting
data point. In this episode, the Enterprise travels roughly 990.7
light years at warp 8.4 in about 11.47 hours. A little math shows
that

   warp 8.4 = 86.4 light years/hour = 756628.8 c = (8.4**6.36)*c

Being a good scientist, I found a second data point when a friend
reminded me that in "Bread and Circuses" the Enterprise travels the
last sixteenth of a parsec in about 30 seconds. Assuming a standard
cruising speed of warp 6, we get

   warp 6 = 0.41 light years/minute = 214839 c = (6**6.85)*c

Unfortunately, this is almost 25 light years/hour. Oh well, it only
an order of magnitude :-)

Anyway, following Robert West's suggestion of using a natural
constant like 2pi in the formula, this gives

   warp n = (n**2pi)*c

This even allows one to include the old reference of warp n =
(n**3)*c as accurate, but only for older model warp engines. The
Enterprise just has a higher order warp curve.

Acknowledgements: profuse thanks to Kurt Piersol
<Piersol.pasa@Xerox.com> for being there when my brain needed him.

Josh
Susser.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87  00:17:50 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

  I am amused at the horde of letters inspired by the fictional
Enterprise "chain of command." Shall we make the following
concessions to logic, honesty, and reality?

   That in no logical situation, with trained landing teams
available, would Kirk and other command officers beam down to a
planet to gather info or anything of the sort. Indeed, in many
terrestrial military vessels and units, such actions are often
deemed deserting one's post. Let's face it.  Kirk's job should have
been to stay on his ship, receive reports, and make dispassionate
decisions. Similarly with the other senior personnel, with the
possible exception of Spock.
  It gets even more ridiculous with the CO, the Exec, AND the 3rd in
command (Kirk/Spock/Sulu) beaming down on some occasions.
  Chalk this down to what plays on TV, pure and simple. Let's not
waste our typing time trying to justify the illogical.

   That Uhura didn't conn the ship for two simple reasons: race and
sex.  Roddenberry admitted just that in more than one interview.
Shall we let rationales here drop too?

   That considering the proper role and duties of an executive
officer, Spock would have never done? Yes, yes, I know, Spock is
incredibly able, smart, the perfect officer, and so on and so on.
That hardly excuses the logical fact that when the CO is unable to
conn the ship, for whatever reason, the exec's place is ON THE
BRIDGE. Period. Since science officers beam down to planets and
suchlike...however able, Spock lacks the capacity for creating a
duplicate of himself to be two places at once.

  The Star Trek series was designed as entertainment, not as an
accurate depiction or extrapolation of military practices or
protocol, either now or in the forseeable future.

  As far as a Klingon on the crew, the rumor may have sprung from
the DC Star Trek comic book, in which a Klingon has been a member of
Kirk's crew for some time now. Whether this will find its way onto
ST:TNG is unfounded, as far as I've heard, but it's an awfully
interesting conceit...

Robert G. Traynor
UMass-Boston

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 20:19:27 GMT
From: hao!nbires!cadnetix!pem@RUTGERS.EDU (Paul Meyer)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

Ok, it's time for me to put in my $2x10^-2 worth.

Has everybody forgotten that Chekov (unlike, for example, Uhura) is
a line officer in training to someday command a starship?  As part
of his training he might well be given the conn at times when it
would be valuable practice for him without endangering the ship.
This being so, Kirk's action at the end of _Journey to Babel_ is a
strong if implicit statement that he expects the time he is in
sickbay to be placid.

pem@cadnetix.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 02:36:03 GMT
From: griffith@cory.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

McCoy's rank, according to "Court Martial", is Lieutenant Commander,
putting him on an equal footing with Scotty, although I agree with
your thought that his unstable mental state makes him poor command
material.

Also, I would like to make a correction to an earlier posting which
broke down the crew into three categories.  The third included
Security, Communications, and Engineering.  I would like to suggest
that this group be reclassified "Ship's Services", since those three
mainly affect the Enterprise only.  OK, some nit-pickers are gonna
gripe that Communications affects both parties involved, and sure,
Scotty prevented that mining planet from going kablooey, and
Security is always phasering innocent peasants, but you get the
idea.  Besides, I've heard that phrase used to describe that group
on this net before.

Jim Griffith
...!ucbvax!cory!griffith

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 13:05:15 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: The Next Generation

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>>I'd be REAL careful about mentioning you have something that has
>>not been released to the public and is under Paramount copyright.
>>Fans get lots of things like this, but mentioning it on the net is
>>not smart. In my opinion.
>
>It HAS been released, and is sold by Lincoln Enterprises, run by
>Majel Barrett Roddenberry.  It's not in the catalog I have, but
>interested folks could probably write for the price if they're
>interested.  P.O.  Box 691370; Los Angeles, CA 90069.

So I have since discovered.  My apologies, I was under the
impression (from usually very good sources) that the guide wasn't
going to be released until after the show was on the air, but I
guess Majel decided to go ahead.

All the better, I've been itching to talk about some of what's
written in it for quite a while.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 13:12:06 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>   That in no logical situation, with trained landing teams
>available, would Kirk and other command officers beam down to a
>planet to gather info

Star Trek is based to a great extent on C.S. Forester's Horatio
Hornblower stories.  Hornblower did often lead shore parties, so
Kirk does.  Besides...Shatner was the star :-).

>  The Star Trek series was designed as entertainment, not as an
>accurate depiction or extrapolation of military practices or
>protocol, either now or in the forseeable future.

No question, but people like to come up with explanations as an
exercise if nothing else (at least I hope that's all it is).  Let
them have their fun, ok.  I even do it occasionally.  (Wanna hear
my explanation on 1 ly/hr?)

>  As far as a Klingon on the crew, the rumor may have sprung from
>the DC Star Trek comic book, in which a Klingon has been a member
>of Kirk's crew for some time now. Whether this will find its way
>onto ST:TNG is unfounded, as far as I've heard, but it's an awfully
>interesting conceit...

It's in the writer's guide that Klingon has joined the Federation,
and Klingon crewmembers are showing up in Starfleet.  How soon we'll
see one is anybody's guess (But I'd say not in the first 1/2 dozen
episodes since Roddenberry has said he wants to stay away from known
"aliens" for a while).

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 14:37:02 GMT
From: belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu (Matthew Belmonte)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Warp Drive

Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>"That Which Survives" was on this week, and provides an interesting
>data point. In this episode, the Enterprise travels roughly 990.7
>light years at warp 8.4 in about 11.47 hours. A little math shows
>that [...]

The _Enterprise_ wasn't always going warp 8.4 during those 990.7 ly,
though.  The image of Losira sabotaged the warp engines, and at one
point, just before Scotty fixed things by using that wonderful
panacea REVERSE POLARITY, the _Enterprise_ was going warp 14.1.

But why bother?

Matthew Belmonte
Internet:  <belmonte@svax.cs.cornell.edu>
BITNET:  <d25y@cornella> <d25y@crnlvax5>
UUCP:  ..!decvax!duke!duknbsr!mkb

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 00:59:13 GMT
From: drp@lll-lcc.arpa (David Preston)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>of course! :-)) are Command, and Scotty, of course, is Engineering.
>Probably the reason that Scotty is given command at times is
>because he is, after Kirk and Spock, the most senior officer on
>board the Enterprise.

I thought McCoy was the most senior officer after K&S; in Menagerie,
Spock surrendered to McCoy, after explaining to him that he had
committed mutiny, and that it was up to McCoy to arrest him as the
most senior officer.  Of course, McCoy was not in a command
position(I'm a DOCTOR not a Starship Captain :-)

david

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Jun 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #299
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #299
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 299

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Lovecraft (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 08:38 CDT
From: SHERZER%NGSTL1%eg.ti.com@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Lovecraft

My personal favorite is a story called either "In the vault" or "In
the crypt". It is about a man stuck inside a crypt for a night and
how he gets out. Read it with just enough light to see and in a
thunderstorm.

Allen Sherzer
sherzer%ngstl1@ti-eg.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 11:32:52 EDT
From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: H.P. Lovecraft

People who are interested in H.P. Lovecraft might also be interested
in the films _Reanimator_ and _From Beyond_, both adaptions of
stories of his.  _From Beyond_ just came out recently, and I believe
it is from a story of the same name.  _Reanimator_ is about 3 years
old and I'm not sure what story it's from.  Neither movie has much
to do with the Cthulhu mythos, but are quite enjoyable horror films,
if you like blood and gore.  Both films were directed by the same
person, whose name, of course, escapes me.

Jeremy Bornstein

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 87 11:32 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Lovecraft movies

   Someone was hoping for movies based on certain Lovecraft stories,
including _At the Mountains of Madness_.  I think your best bet is
to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John Carpenter).  Antarctic
research station confronts old, alien, extremely malevolent thing
(for lack of a better word) frozen in the ice for some thousands of
years.  While more SF than Mythos, I would suspect Carpenter was
inspired by Lovecraft on this one.  It will definitely give you
disturbing dreams.
   The obvious trivia bit in this movie is that the original movie
is showing in the background on one of the TV sets.

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 17:09:07 GMT
From: stokes@hao.ucar.edu (Stokes Project)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

 To complete Jeremy's comments, the director who made both _From
Beyond_ and _Reanimator_ was John Landis, who has also done
_Kentucky Fried Movie_ and other greats.

Ken Luther
NCAR/HAO
Boulder, Co. 80302

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 08:12:29 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft

(I should know better than this but it's better than Heinlein
bashing.)

Can someone please explain to me what they like about Lovecraft and
horror stories in general?  I have read one Lovecraft story in my
life (sorry, don't remember the name) and found it to be incredibly
boring.  The few horror stories I've read never come to a
satisfactory conclusion (i.e. not even a hint of why the unusual
phenomenon is occurring).  This may be a requirement of the genre,
but I find it rather frustrating.

I suppose this is all a matter of taste, but I'd like someone to
explain what they like about horror.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 21:24:11 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>The few horror stories I've read never come to a satisfactory
>conclusion (i.e. not even a hint of why the unusual phenomenon is
>occurring).  This may be a requirement of the genre, but I find it
>rather frustrating.

Horror (dark fantasy) is not science fiction, just as light fantasy
is not science fiction. I enjoy reading a good horror or ghost story
for the same reason some people like to ride a roller coaster: it's
scary but I know that I'm not in any real danger. If you demand
logic and coherent explanations of phenomena in your fiction, you
probably will not enjoy most horror fiction.

A horror writer who overexplains the horror in his book does a
disservice to his readers: it's the uncertainty and mystery that in
large part makes horror enjoyable. Lovecraft's batrachian beasts and
things from beyond the stars are very effective because they suggest
that there are aspects to reality that are forever beyond our
understanding. In short, I think the best horror plays on our fear
of the unknown: it may be our fear of the unknown in the natural (or
unnatural) world, our fear of other humans, or even our fear that
our own bodies may (will) someday revolt against us (see, for
example, Clive Barker's story about the revolt of the hands in "The
Inhuman Condition:" the revolt is, in a sense, a metaphor for
disease and horrifies for that reason).

Various authors have written in defense of horror fiction, claiming
that it has a certain purgative effect on the psyche: it allows us
to work out our fears in a safe manner. I'm not sure I'm ready to
buy this argument, but it has a certain appeal.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 13:47:14 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> _Reanimator_ is about 3 years old and I'm not sure what story it's
>from.  Neither movie has much to do with the Cthulhu mythos, but
>are quite enjoyable horror films, if you like blood and gore.

REANIMATOR is an adaptation of "Herbert West -- Reanimator", which
is actually a series of 6 shorter stories.  It's tangential to the
Mythos, in that part of the action takes place in Arkham (according
to Lin Carter, a mere mention of "Arkham" or "Necronomicon" isn't
enough to make a Mythos story, but I disagree; at the very least,
such mentions suggest a story set in the same "continuity" as the
Mythos).  A couple of the shorter stories are pretty good, but as a
whole, it's one of HPL worst: the "shock ending" always revolves
around some aspect of reanimation.  Gets tiresome after 4 or so
variations.  I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it manages
to avoid the same feeling, though I can imagine such a "theme and
variations" method working in a film.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP:{ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA:JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 14:22:45 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft

dant@tekla.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
> Can someone please explain to me what they like about Lovecraft
> and horror stories in general.  I have read one Lovecraft story in
> my life (sorry, don't remember the name) and found it to be
> incredibly boring.  The few horror stories I've read never come to
> a satisfactory conclusion (i.e. not even a hint of why the unusual
> phenomenon is occurring).  This may be a requirement of the genre,
> but I find it rather frustrating.

Bill Ingolgy has replied with regard to horror in general; go read
his article, if you haven't already done so.

I like horror in general precisely *because* of that "unsatisfactory
conclusion": the notion that there are unexplainable things Out
There (From Beyond, if you will).  If we encounter one of them, we
may consider ourselves lucky to escape alive; we will certainly (in
a good horror story, anyway) not escape unscathed.

Lovecraft, actually, uses *less* of the inexplicable than other
authors.  HPL's basic premise is that, long ago, alien (not simply
off-world) beings fought a war, in which our planet was involved.
The losers were locked away by the victors (giving rise to a host of
Armageddon-type myths), but their lesser minions are still free, and
they themselves are still trying to get free.  Some of HPL's appeal
to me is in this premise.

The horror usually arises from an innocent learning the truth behind
some myths: the fact of the aliens (the Cthulhu Mythos deities).  In
the best Lovecraft, there's a feeling of discovering an ages-old
conspiracy.  There's always the feeling that "things are not, in
reality, as we think they are", that our reality is actually a thin
shell, and we'd be lost if we knew the depth of the cosmic reality
beneath that shell.

There's also some appeal in the game of the Mythos: authors
inventing rare books, new deities, lost cities; giving Mythos
explanations to actual mysteries; expanding on matters HPL merely
mentioned in passing.

Lovecraft's writing style has turned off many people.  It was an
affectation of 19th century style and was out of place even when he
wrote it.  Even so, there are some gems.  His regular use of dialect
also makes the reading hard going: two of his best stories are "The
Dunwich Horror" and "The Colour out of Space", yet even these are
challenges for the casual reader because of their heavy use of
dialect.  Yet once you get the spelling patterns down, you find a
reasonable reproduction of a heavy New England accent, which lends
more to the feeling of authenticity.

And that's why I like Lovecraft.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 13:13:26 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies

PORTERG@VCUVAX.BITNET writes:
>I think your best bet is to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John
>Carpenter).  I would suspect Carpenter was inspired by Lovecraft on
>this one.

But wasn't this based on the short story "Who Goes There?" by John
W.  Campbell?  I've never read it, but I heard that the remake
follows it more closely than the original film.

Jay Smith
uucp:  ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 14:49:02 GMT
From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies (Really _The Thing_)

From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> Someone was hoping for movies based on certain Lovecraft stories,
> including _At the Mountains of Madness_.  I think your best bet is
> to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John Carpenter).  Antarctic
> research station confronts old, alien, extremely malevolent thing
> (for lack of a better word) frozen in the ice for some thousands
> of years.  While more SF than Mythos, I would suspect Carpenter
> was inspired by Lovecraft on this one.  It will definitely give
> you disturbing dreams.
>   The obvious trivia bit in this movie is that the original
> movie is showing in the background on one of the TV sets.

No way! Carpenter's _The Thing_ (like the 1958 original) was
inspired by a novelette by John W. Campbell, Jr. called _Who Goes
There?_. Carpenter's version was far more faithful to Campbell's
story than the '58 version was, except for the ending. _Who Goes
There?_ is probably the best thing Campbell ever wrote. (He was
mostly known as an editor (Analog) and anthologist.)

Whether Campbell took his inspiration from Lovecraft is an open
question, but it seems unlikely. Given Campbell's outlook on life
and politics, it is more likely to be a commentary on creeping
Communism (Your neighbors, your friends, even your children could be
THEM!) As a depiction of paranoia, it's superb. If you can find a
copy of this story (not easy), give it a read.

Dave Mack
McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc.
8201 Greensboro Drive
McLean, VA 22102
(703)883-3911
...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 22:59:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Lovecraft movies

Someone asked about movies based (more or less) on Lovecraft's
fiction.  Besides Re-Animator and From Beyond, I'm aware of two
older movies, The Dunwich Horror and The Shuttered Room. (The
Shuttered Room is actually the title of a "posthumous" collaboration
between Lovecraft and Derleth).

Both are hokey, stupid and boring. And without the sparkle of
classic bad movies. Dunwich Horror tries to introduce some lame
romantic interest.  The title monster really suffers from cheap
special effects (a valiant effort tho). Shuttered Room is just
soporific, and doesn't have much to do with the original story at
all. Don't bother checking out these two.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 18:37:23 GMT
From: jca@drutx.att.com (ArnsonJC)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be
called a book and not a short story.  The title is "The Case of
Charles Dexter Ward".  Finding a copy may be difficult as I have
been told it is out of print.  My copy is in paperback by Penguin
and the date is 1963(?)

jill c. arnson
(ulysses/ihnp4)!drutx!jca
AT&T ISL, Denver; (303)538-4800

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 87 03:13:22 GMT
From: seismo!sun!apple!winter@RUTGERS.EDU (Patty Winter)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

jca@drutx.ATT.COM (ArnsonJC) writes:
>As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be
>called a book and not a short story.  The title is "The Case of
>Charles Dexter Ward".  Finding a copy may be difficult as I have
>been told it is out of print.  My copy is in paperback by Penguin
>and the date is 1963(?)

The five-paperback boxed set I have includes this one. The set was
published in 1971 by Beagle Books (101 Fifth Ave, NY, NY 10003) "by
arrangement with Arkham House." The box is called "The Arkham
Edition of H.P. Lovecraft"; publisher's ID # (this was before ISBNs,
gang! :-) ) is 99146-475. Don't know whether it's still available.

Patty Winter N6BIS
(408) 973-2814
M/S 2C, Apple Computer, Inc.,
20525 Mariani Ave., Cupertino, CA 95014
{decwrl,nsc,sun,dual}!apple!winter

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 13:13:26 GMT
From: aad+@andrew.cmu.edu (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies

So I'm not the only one who saw a similarity between The Thing and
At the Mountains of Madness, eh?  It struck me immediately when I
saw the movie, but I've never seen any formal acknowledgement of
this.  There is a movie called "Dr. Strange" or such that seems a
whole lot like Hypnos.  And the mid-70's movie called Yog seemed to
have some elements of The Colour Out Of Space.  There was a movie
called "20,000,000 Years to Earth" or something like that (I don't
have my book with me) that dealt with Londoners finding this buried
space ship when they were excavating for a subway or something, and
it seemed to me to have some similarities to a Lovecraft story who's
name shamefully eludes me at the moment.  And of course there are
the Night Gallery bits: a full-length story of Pickman's Model, and
a 5 minute job where a prof keeps talking about Hastur, and these
two bothersome students tell him to be careful, and he turns into
Sigmund the Sea Monster.  The two students were oddly enough named
Mr. Lovecraft and Mr. Derleth.

And let's not forget the wonderful late-60's version of The Dunwich
Horror starring Stella Stevens

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 19:09:20 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

stokes@hao.UCAR.EDU (Stokes Project) writes:
>To complete Jeremy's comments, the director who made both _From
>Beyond_ and _Reanimator_ was John Landis, who has also done
>_Kentucky Fried Movie_ and other greats.

Argghh!  It was Stuart Gordon, NOT John Landis, who did the Empire
Productions Lovecraft films.  Both films also starred Jeffrey Combs.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 20:46:49 GMT
From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>Argghh!  It was Stuart Gordon, NOT John Landis, who did the Empire
>Productions Lovecraft films.  Both films also starred Jeffrey
>Combs.

*And* Barbara Crampton!!!! homona..homona...homona...drool...

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Jun 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #300
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #300
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 300

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 21:04:22 GMT
From: seismo!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

Craig Stanfill writes:
> In this posting, I will talk about the way things work in Middle
> Earth, rather than speculate about Tolkien's possible beliefs.

I'll keep that in mind.
> Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist
> and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people,
> have a very large role in determining who one is.  BUT: something
> of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world in
> which nobility of birth has real meaning.  Here Tolkien has taken
> a concept from the mythos he was drawing on (including the King as
> Hero), and elevating it to a fundamental part of the way things
> work.

I agree with pedigree, but not racism.  I think you are making the
point that race really doesn't have anything to do with it -
ancestry is all important. (?) Who's to say that somewhere in
Aragon's ancestry (perhaps before the fall of Numenor) there wasn't
a sire who later went on to become a "Black Numenorean" (sp)?)

> Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract,
> repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world.  But, in
> terms of literature, it works.  Would Lord of the Rings be the
> same without Aragorn, this no-body from no-where (who just happens
> to be the highest-born man in the world), jumping in and leading
> the armies of the West?  I think not.

Ah, but you speak like an American. America has been fortunate not
to have nobility. However, (now I *have* to get into Tolkien's
personal beliefs), Tolkien is a product of his culture, which
included, in his earlier years the reigns of the Hapsburgs,
Hoenzollerens, Romanovs and George V in England. Europe has a rich
history of monarchies which, for the most part, we Americans don't
understand. (I don't claim to understand it either - all I know is
that there are cultural differences between *us* and *our*
ancestors).

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98499
206-581-1322
{psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 14:22:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Tolkien

Piers David Crawley writes
>  The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
>allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
>skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
>the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed
>allegiance.

As many others have already mentioned, it looks like he only took
the black=evil and white=good mythological notion and there was no
racist thing.  One thing to think about might be that Gandalf was
Gandalf the Grey before he became Gandalf the White.  Someone seemed
to question Saruman's being "white" and I believe, it is only wrt
his title Saruman the White before he turned bad that we have any
colors associated with him.  It has been quite a while since I last
read LoTR so I won't add any more.  There probably is a ton of color
imagery that no one has brought up yet.  (Anyone remember all the
wizard colors?)

Neil A. Ottenstein
otten@cincom.umd.edu arpanet
otten@umcincom       bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 19:16:35 GMT
From: think!craig@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Stanfill)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

>> Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist
>> and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people,
>> have a very large role in determining who one is.  BUT: something
>> of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world
>> in which nobility of birth has real meaning.  Here Tolkien has
>> taken a concept from the mythos he was drawing on (including the
>> King as Hero), and elevating it to a fundamental part of the way
>> things work.
>
> I agree with pedigree, but not racism.  I think you are making the
> point that race really doesn't have anything to do with it -
> ancestry is all important.

Hmmm ... Maybe tribalism or clannishness or nationalism or some
other ISM is the correct term.  I don't know exactly what would
constitute a ``race'' in Middle Earth.  Are the men of Harad: a
race, a nation, a tribe, or a clan?  In any event, one who is born a
Man of Harad has little (no) hope of rising above his birth.  In any
event, this principle is a consequence of the way in which stature
is inherited through generations, but applied on the scale of large
populations rather than individuals.

> Who's to say that somewhere in Aragon's ancestry (perhaps before
> the fall of Numenor) there wasn't a sire who later went on to
> become a "Black Numenorean" (sp)?)

If I remember his lineage correctly, about midway through the second
Age Aragorn's sires were screwed out of the Numenorian crown.  His
clan remained faithful to the Valar, while the usurpers became the
Black Numenoreans.  I don't remember the details, except that they
were complex.

>> Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract,
>> repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world.
>Ah, but you speak like an American. America has been fortunate not
>to have nobility. However, (now I *have* to get into Tolkien's
>personal beliefs), Tolkien is a product of his culture, which
>included, in his earlier years the reigns of the Hapsburgs,
>Hoenzollerens, Romanovs and George V in England. Europe has a rich
>history of monarchies which, for the most part, we Americans don't
>understand. (I don't claim to understand it either - all I know is
>that there are cultural differences between *us* and *our*
>ancestors).

Hmmm.  Part of the reason why Nobility and Royalty has gone out of
style is that this is NOT Middle Earth; virtue and wisdom are
demonstrably NOT inherited in the line of male succession.  What
would the world be like if every Rooman Emperor had the military
genius of Julius Caesar and the administrative genius of Octavius
Caesar Augustus?  I suspect we would still have Roman emperors.
Perhaps part of what led Tolkien to craft his world in this way was
a longing for a world in which the principles underlying classism
and monarchy worked perfectly.  One can speculate.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 00:38:35 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (not long)

Craig Stanfill writes:
>Hmmm ... Maybe tribalism or clannishness or nationalism or some
>other ISM is the correct term.  I don't know exactly what would
>constitute a ``race'' in Middle Earth.  Are the men of Harad: a
>race, a nation, a tribe, or a clan?  In any event, one who is born
>a Man of Harad has little (no) hope of rising above his birth.  In
>any event, this principle is a consequence of the way in which
>stature is inherited through generations, but applied on the scale
>of large populations rather than individuals.

This is actually a bit of Judaism-- the notion of a given national
destiny.  Illuvatar working out his purpose through chosen nations.
Sounds like Israel, doesn't it?  (Not the present one, silly.)

It's pretty clear from reading the Silmarillion that the races are
the elves, the dwarves, the men, and the hobbits.  What destinies
they have are on a far greater scale than merely the events in the
LOTR; the elves, dwarves and hobbitsrise and then fade away, but on
a vastly greater timescale.

>Hmmm.  Part of the reason why Nobility and Royalty has gone out of
>style is that this is NOT Middle Earth; virtue and wisdom are
>demonstrably NOT inherited in the line of male succession.  What
>would the world be like if every Rooman Emperor had the military
>genius of Julius Caesar and the administrative genius of Octavius
>Caesar Augustus?  I suspect we would still have Roman emperors.
>Perhaps part of what led Tolkien to craft his world in this way was
>a longing for a world in which the principles underlying classism
>and monarchy worked perfectly.  One can speculate.

Well, I think that there are several dramatic pressures.  One of the
aspects of the LOTR is apocalyptic, after all.  In it the destiny of
the "fairy tale" races is worked out and brought to a close.  But I
think the principal reason has to do with the importance of
obedience.  The wrecking of Middle Earth, as it is told in the
Silmarillion, is caused by something essentially like the christian
notion of sin.  Melkor disobeys Illuvatar and Manwe.  Feanor and his
sons disobey Manwe.  El-Pharazon disobeys Manwe.  Sauron disobeys
Manwe.  Saruman falls out of the Istari.  The Numenoreans
disintegrate due to intrigue.  Boromir breaks trust.  Wormtongue
deceives the leaders of the Rohirrim.  THe Ring is itself a sort of
elemental treachery which nobody seems to be able to master.  In
this wise, the appearance of Aragorn as a sort of typological,
fore-ordained King is quite natural-- a king because that epitomizes
Leadership, and fore-ordained to emphasize the apocalyptic,
set-before-time nature of events.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 22:28:05 GMT
From: iodine@coral.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien

From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
>(Anyone remember all the wizard colors?)

As I recall, there were three Istari (wizards) sent into Middle
Earth: Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Radagast the Brown.
Radagast's specialty was nature, more specifically, animals.  He was
supposed to be able to communicate with any animal.

Steve Gensler
iodine@coral.berkeley.edu, or
ucbvax!coral!iodine

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 17:56:14 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

flak@slovax.UUCP (Dan Flak) writes:
>Craig Stanfill writes:
>> In this posting, I will talk about the way things work in Middle
>> Earth, rather than speculate about Tolkien's possible beliefs.
>
>I'll keep that in mind.

The problem is not that people have been speculating about Tolkien's
beliefs, but that those who have been so doing clearly know nothing
about them.  (Unless our news-feed problems have been killing some
postings).

>> Tolkien has created a world which is, in a sense, both classist
>> and racist: the pedigree of a man, and the ancestry of a people,
>> have a very large role in determining who one is.  BUT: something
>> of this nature is inevitable if you want to write about a world
>> in which nobility of birth has real meaning.

Of course, this is true.  The same considerations apply to FRP
worlds.  This use of the term racist has very little to do with the
common use of the term, which means "prejudiced against blacks."

>> Here Tolkien has taken a concept from the mythos he was drawing
>> on (including the King as Hero), and elevating it to a
>> fundamental part of the way things work.
>
>I agree with pedigree, but not racism.  I think you are making the
>point that race really doesn't have anything to do with it -
>ancestry is all important. (?) Who's to say that somewhere in
>Aragon's ancestry (perhaps before the fall of Numenor) there wasn't
>a sire who later went on to become a "Black Numenorean" (sp)?)

I'll take the last error first.  TOLKIEN said that there were no
sires in Aragorn's line who took the dark path.  Aragorn came from a
line of those who were unswervingly faithful.  Some made bad
mistakes (such as Isildur's taking the Ring for his own), but he was
killed before he could become greatly corrupted.  Perhaps a gift
from the West?

If Mr. Stanhill is using the term "race" as advisedly as I hope he
is, then we must recall that the terms usally translated as "race"
in heroic poetry are closer to "clan" in modern usage.  Beowulf
speaks of being the last of his race, as does the Wanderer.
Clearly, he is not the last Caucasian, or even the last German,
Geat, Saxon, whatever.

We fail to understand LOTR if we ignore either the Heroic or the
Christian elements.  Tolkien believed in original sin (no shock
there, he was an ardent Catholic.) and this is made clear.  Rising
above one's sinful ancestry is harder than falling below the glory
of one's fore- bears.  The remnant of the race of Numenor is far
closer to the state of the Riders before Eorl came from the North
than the Riders will ever be to the heirs of Elros.

It is almost too painfully obvious to point out the allegorical
elements in LOTR, but I have seen no poster who dealt with it.
(Apologies if I have missed a posting due to news feed problems.)
Aragorn is a Christ figure.  NOT Christ, but a Christ figure.  He is
returning to his king- dom after having been absent for a long time,
and having left the kingdom in the charge of stewards.

He endures temptation, passes through Hell, and redeems his people.
The death and resurrection are provided by Gandalf, the second
Christ figure.  He began despised and rejected of men, a man of
sorrows and acquainted with grief.  Need I go on?

The heroic Christ figure (Aragorn) and the semi-divine Christ figure
(Gandalf) are in the end overshadowed by the humble Christ figure
(Frodo).  He undergoes symbolic death and resurrection (trip through
Mordor and his rescue by the Eagles) in order to provide salvation
for those who found him of no account.

>> Is this good or bad? I find the concept, taken in the abstract,
>> repulsive, and would not want to live in such a world.  But, in
>> terms of literature, it works.  Would Lord of the Rings be the
>> same without Aragorn, this no-body from no-where (who just
>> happens to be the highest-born man in the world), jumping in and
>> leading the armies of the West?  I think not.
>
>Ah, but you speak like an American. America has been fortunate not
>to have nobility. However, (now I *have* to get into Tolkien's
>personal beliefs), Tolkien is a product of his culture, which
>included, in his earlier years the reigns of the Hapsburgs,
>Hoenzollerens, Romanovs and George V in England. Europe has a rich
>history of monarchies which, for the most part, we Americans don't
>understand. (I don't claim to understand it either - all I know is
>that there are cultural differences between *us* and *our*
>ancestors).

And you both speak in apparent ignorance of who Tolkien was and what
he was writing.  He was writing heroic fantasy, a latter day edda,
with a very strong Christian allegorical element.  The heroic period
is a time of kings and princes, whose right to rule rests on firm
foundations of heredity.  Christ is Hereditary King, both at the Son
of David and as the Son of God.

Suppose that irrefutable proof of the existence of God were
presented to you, that He is omniscient and absolutely good, and
that He appointed a King to reign over the world.  I can imagine few
who would not agree that this would be a good form of government.  I
am not asserting that any such government is possible in this world,
just asking you to look into another point of view.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Jun 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #301
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #301
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 301

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & Anthony & Delaney (2 msgs) &
                    Rowley & Silverberg & Stasheff &
                    Sturgeon & Fall Books &
                    1987 Hugo Nominations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 11:55:20 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dominic
From: Dunlop)
Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

That Douglas Adams, arncha just sick of him??!!  Since signing
copies of _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_ at London's
Forbidden Planet bookshop on Saturday, he's been on BBC Radio 4's
_Bookshelf_ program (Sunday 14th June, 20:00 BST), Radio 4's _Start
the Week_ (Monday, 09:05), London Broadcasting's _AM_ (Tuesday), and
has featured in a piece on the science page of the Independent, a UK
national newspaper (Monday).  Have there been other sitings?  I
haven't monitored TV, for instance.

That Douglas Adams, dontcha just lurve him?  Such a clever man,
typesetting his own book on a Mac (although I'm sure many will
dispute a claim that it was the first book for which this has been
done; the first published by Heineman, perhaps...)  And entertaining
on chat shows -- although spoilers are inclined to creep into the
conversation.  Such a welcome change from politicians.

Seriously though, Adams says he's glad almost to have put Hitchhiker
behind him (although the film, on which he spent a fruitless year in
LA may yet go into production).

I'm a fan really.  It's just that I'm sensitive to hype...

Dominic Dunlop

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 18:00:23 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: lack of non-human-like Aliens (was Re: The Uplift War)

cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) writes:
> I agree that non-human characters should not just be humans with
> added weaknesses; they should have some added strengths as well.
> But - to imagine these added qualities vividly is a long step
> towards having them yourself.  For instance, suppose, in my
> unbegun novel,

   Of course, portraying a totally non-human Alien would be very
near impossible for the reasons you mentioned.  However, a nice
attempt is done by Piers Anthony in his _Cluster_ series.  I've
found that his aliens are much more belieavable as aliens than most
of the other aliens I've read in SF.  The _Cluster_ series include:
   1) Vicinity Cluster
   2) Chaining the Lady
   3) Kirlian Quest
   4) Thousandstar
   5) Viscious Circle

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College
        Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349
UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 18:21:55 GMT
From: rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Delaney

putnam@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP (jeff putnam ) writes:
>It says in one of the blurbs that there is a second part "The
>Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities" (wonderful titles even!)
>and that this should be published in 1985, but I can't find this in
>bookstores or "Books in Print" or "Forthcoming Books".

It was delayed for some reason; I heard somewhere that it's supposed
to come out this year (maybe in the fall?).

>...  I would also be interested in hearing what people think of
>this - it would at least be a switch from Heinlein bashing.

Yeah, now we can go back to another round of Delaney bashing. :-)

I also liked "Stars in my Pocket..." very much. It and "Nova" are my
two favorite Delaney novels.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 18:58:22 GMT
From: scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Scott)
Subject: Samuel R. Delaney sequel?

   Does anybody out there know what has happened to the planned
sequel to Samuel R. Delaney's novel, Stars In My Pocket Like Grains
Of Sand?
   The sequel was to be called, I think, The Splendor And Misery Of
Bodies, Of Cities; or something similar.  A publisher's note at the
end of Stars indicated the companion volume would be released in
late 1986.
   I don't follow the sf community very closely.  Does anybody who
has, know anything about Delaney?
   Thanks.

Dave Scott

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 17:53:31 GMT
From: haste#@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Golden Sunlands Sequel Warning

"Golden Sunlands", by Christopher Rowley is half, or maybe a third,
of a book.  There is no warning on the cover, no "to be continued".
In fact, a shopper casually glancing at the last page might not
realize it.  But all this book does is introduce -- and scatter --
the characters.

Huh?  Oh, quality...well, it's readable.  [**+].

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 15:21:36 GMT
From: vax1!jsm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: First SF

dleigh@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Darren Leigh) writes:
>I guess I got my first real science fiction reading experience in
>fourth grade.  They were passing out paperbacks and I got two: The
>Runaway Robot (by Lester del Rey?) and another one whose title I
>don't remember: it was about the revolution of earth's colony on
>Alpha Centauri, with all kinds of parallels with the American
>revolution ("No taxation without representation.").  A really neat
>part was where the hero (outside the ship doing repairs after the
>hyperspace drive broke) loosed his own tether to jump out and save
>a fellow workman.  Apparently the only propulsion device he had was
>a pistol, so he only had six shots to get back!  I appreciated it.
>I was only nine.

"Revolt on Alpha C", Robert Silverberg's first novel. The hero is
named after the well-known fifties sf fan Larry Stark. Another
character is Harlan Ellison - in name, temperament, and size. Terry
Carr is the head of the Space Patrol. I imagine that the rest of the
characters are also named after fifties fans.

Good book, too ... I reread it recently, after twenty years. Still
holds up.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 07:32:49 GMT
From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff' "Warlock series"

> BTW, does anybody have the *original* King Kobold?  What did you
> think?  Is the 'new' version beter?

I have an old King Kobold.  I saw it second-hand (how else?) and
jumped on it despite its condition, which is hardly mint.  However,
it has been some time since I read either form of KK, so my memories
will be rather time-blurred.  However, when reading KK (I read KKR
first), I was able to predict from memory of KKR how most nontrivial
plot events would turn out, so they can't be that different.  (My
memory seems to be fuzzy.  Reread time, I guess.)

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp

------------------------------

Date: Mon 22 Jun 87 23:48:14-EDT
From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA>
Subject: In praise of Ted Sturgeon
To: hugo@GNOME.CS.CMU.EDU

Peter Su (Hugo@Gnome.Cs.Cmu.Edu) states his admiration for Sturgeon
and asks about his books.  First off, I fully concur with Su's
opinion: Sturgeon was first rate, and we miss him.

For some reason, there are only two Sturgeon books in my library: _E
Pluribus Unicorn_ and _Godbody_.  The first is a collection of truly
marvelous stories with copyrights dating from 1947 to 1953.  I had a
copy for years that apparently was poorly bound, since many of the
pages had fallen out.  However, I had saved (almost all of) them and
kept the whole thing tied up with a rubber band and reread it every
few years.  Then my daughter, bless her, found that it had been
reprinted, and bought each of us a copy; that's what I now have.
It's a Pocket Book Edition, printed August 1977; ISBN:
0-671-83149-6.  I would be quite surprised if it's still in print.

Although a few of the stories are just so-so, most of them range
from good to superb.  _The Silken Swift_ is, I suppose, fantasy,
inasmuch as it involves a unicorn and magic.  Usually I don't care
for fantasy, but I think this is marvelous.  Sturgeon has a
beautiful way with descriptions, evoking mysterious places in a way
that brings them right into my brain.

_A Saucer of Loneliness_ tells of a "flying saucer" (perhaps a foot
or so in diameter) that appears in Central Park, New York, over a
young woman's head and seems to give her a message -- a message
which she refuses to tell anyone.  Sturgeon's sensitive character
development leads to a most satisfactory ending.

_The World Well Lost_ tell a sympathetic story of a homosexual in an
unsympathetic world -- unusual stuff for 1953.

And one of the best stories, _Die, Maestro, Die_, isn't science
fiction at all -- at least by any definition of SF I've ever heard.
It's just one of the most imaginative and gripping short stories
I've ever read.

The book has a foreword by Groff Conklin, and before the title page
two other books by Sturgeon are listed: _The Cosmic Rape_, and
_Sturgeon is Alive and Well..._.  I don't remember either.

My other Sturgeon is _Godbody_, probably the last thing he wrote
before he died in May, 1985.  It contains a short essay in parise of
Sturgeon by Robert A. Heinlein.  As RAH says, the book's message is
"Love one another."  Good stuff -- I liked it, though I know that
others didn't.  My hard-bond copy is from Science Fiction Book Club.
Other Sturgeon stories mentioned on the dust cover are _More than
Human_, recipient of the International Fantasy Award, and "Slow
Sculpture", winner of Hugo and Nebula Awards.  I would dearly love
to reread both of them.

Let's hear more about Ted Sturgeon.  In particular, does anyone know
of anything else in prnt?

Art Evans
Tartan Labs

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 05:42:43 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Fall Books

Culled from the June 19th issue of Publisher's Weekly, here are some
books you'll be seeing this fall.

L. Ron Hubbard: Buckskin Brigade. Bridge. mass market, 500,000 first
printing, $200,000 promotion budget. L. Ron Hubbard's precedent
setting historical action adventure novel (that's a quote). Does
anyone know if this is a reprint, or is this another "new" work by a
very dead author?  They claim it to be a first mass-market, but I
couldn't find it as a known work in my files.  Either way, it has an
indian on the cover instead of a space ship.

Isaac Asimov: Fantastic Voyage II: Destination Brain.  Doubleday.
200,000 first printing, $200,000 promo. BOMC feature, September.

Clive Barker: Weaveworld. Poseidon. 125,000 first printing, $100,000
promo, BOMC alternate, Author tour, October.  600 page Fantasy about
a rug with a world woven into it.

M. Z. Bradley: The Firebrand. Simon & Shuster. October. Trojan War
told through the eyes of Helen.

Stephen Donaldson: A Man Rides Through (Mordant's Need 2).  Del Rey.
November.

L. Ron Hubbard: The Doomed Planet (Mission Earth volume 10). Bridge.
October.  Yes, it is finally over. Yippee!  Now Bridge can start
publishing it in paperback.

Stephen King: The Tommyknockers. Putnam. November.

Kurt Vonnegut: Bluebeard.  Delacorte. BOMC featured alternate.
October. Quality paperback club main selection.  The Autobiography
of Rabo Karabekian, a cameo player in Breakfast of Champions.

enjoy...

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 12:20:28 GMT
From: phm@stl.stc.co.uk (Peter Mabey)
Subject: Hugo Nominations

The BSFA have just published the Hugo nominations in Matrix 70, as
follows:

Novel (475 votes)
 Speaker for the Dead   Orson Scott Card (Tor/Century)
 Count Zero             William Gibson   (Gollancz/Arbor House)
 Black Genesis          L. Ron Hubbard   (Bridge/New Era)
 The Ragged Astronauts  Bob Shaw         (Gollancz/Baen)
 Marooned in Realtime   Vernor Vinge     (Analog/Bluejay)

Novella (208 votes)
 Eifelheim              Michael Flynn        (Analog  11/86)
 Escape from Kathmandu  Kim Stanley Robinson (IASFM  9/86)
 R+R                    Lucius Shepard       (IASFM  4/86)
 Gilgamesh in the Outback  Robert Silverberg (IASFM  7/86,
                                                Rebels in Hell)
 Spice Pogrom           Connie Willis        (IASFM  10/86)

Novelette (242 votes)
 Thor Meets Captain America  David Brin      (F&SF  7/86)
 Hatrack River          Orson Scott Card     (IASFM  8/86)
 The Winter Market      William Gibson       (Stardate 3/86,
                                      Interzone 15, Burning Chrome)
<although this had limited distribution in Vancouver area in 1985,
 it qualifies because 1986 was first year of general distribution>
 The Barbarian Princess  Vernor Vinge        (Analog  9/86)
 Permafrost              Roger Zelazny       (Omni  4/86)

Short Story (281 votes)
 Robot Dreams            Isaac Asimov        (IASFM midDec 86,
                                                Robot Dreams)
 Tangents                Greg Bear           (Omni  1/86)
 Still Life              David Garnett       (F&SF  3/86)
 Rat                     James Patrick Kelly (F&SF  6/86)
 The Boy Who Plaited Manes  Nancy Springer   (F&SF  10/86)

NonFiction (192 votes)
 Trillion Year Spree
      Brian Aldiss with David Wingrove (Gollancz/Atheneum)
 Science Fiction in Print: 1985
      Charles N. Brown & William G. Contento (Locus Press)
 The Dark Knight Returns
      Frank Miller et al.                   (Warner/Titan)
 Industrial Light and Magic: The Art of Special Effects
      Thomas G.  Smith                           (Del Rey)
 Only Apparently Real
      Paul Williams                          (Arbor House)

Dramatic Presentation (344 votes)
 Aliens                           (20th Century Fox)
 The Fly                          (20th Century Fox)
 Labyrinth                        (Lucasfilms)
 Little Shop of Horrors           (Geffen)
 Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home    (Paramount)

Professional Artist (317 votes)
 Jim Burns
 Frank Kelly Freas
 Tom Kidd
 Don Maitz
 J. K. Potter
 Barclay Shaw
 <note: Michael Whelan received enough nominations to be included,
  but has declared that he did not wish to be nominated.>

Professional Editor (257 votes)
 Terry Carr
 Gardner Dozois
 Ed Ferman
 David Hartwell
 Stan Schmidt

SemiProzine (269 votes)
 Interzone                   ed. David Pringle & Simon Ounsley
 Fantasy Review              ed. Robert A. Collins
 Locus                       ed. Charles N. Brown
 Science Fiction Chronicle   ed. Andrew Porter
 Science Fiction Review      ed. Richard Geis

Fan Writer (226 votes)
 Mike Glyer
 Arthur Hlavaty
 Dave Langford
 Patrick Nielsen Hayden
 Simon Ounsley
 D. West

Fan Artist (213 votes)
 Brad Foster
 Stu Shiffman
 Steve Fox
 Taral
 Arthur (ATOM) Thomson

Fanzine (269 votes)
 Ansible                Dave Langford
 File 770               Mike Glyer
 Lan's Lantern          George Laskowski
 Texas SF Inquirer      Pat Mueller
 Trapdoor               Robert Lichtman

The John W. Campbell award nominations are:

+ Lois McMaster Bujold
+ Karen Joy Fowler
  Leo Frankowski
  Katherine Eliska Kimbriel
  Rebecca Brown Ore
  Robert Touzalin Reed

  (217 votes cast)

+ Second year of eligibility

I have no official connection with Conspiracy 87 or the BSFA, but
have transcribed the above information for the interest of all
netlanders, so only take responsibility for typos. :)

Regards,

Peter Mabey
phm@stl
...!mcvax!ukc!stl!phm
+4427929531 x3596

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Jun 87 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #302
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 87 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #302
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 302

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Tolkien (2 msgs) & Swift &
                         Brief review

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 18:55:40 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: Re: The Istari

iodine@coral.berkeley.edu  writes:
>As I recall, there were three Istari (wizards) sent into Middle
>Earth: Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Radagast the Brown.
>Radagast's specialty was nature, more specifically, animals.  He
>was supposed to be able to communicate with any animal.

I quote from Unfinished Tales, Part Four, Charpter II, "The Istari"

   Of this Order [the Istari, RW] the number is unknown; but of
   those that came to the North of Middle_Earth, where there was
   most hope (because of the remnant of the Du'nedain and of the
   Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five.  The first to come
   was of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice,
   and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand,
   and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the
   head of the Order.  Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue,
   and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least,
   less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired
   and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff.  But Ci'rdan from their
   first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest
   spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he
   gave into his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
     ...  Now the White Messenger in later days became known among
   Elves as Curuni'r, the Man of Craft, in the tongues of Northern
   Men Saruman... Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they
   had not names save _Ithryn Luin_ "the Blue Wizards'; for they
   passed into the East with Curuni'r, but they never returned, and
   whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes
   for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were
   ensnared by Sauron and became his servants is not know known.

Elsewhere, Tolkien says that alone of the Istari, Gandalf was true
to his errand: Saruman fell into Evil, Radagast became too enamoured
of the beasts to rouse the Free Peoples to resistance, and the Blue
Wizards either fell prey to Sauron (or even Saruman may have
disposed of them when he journeyed with them to the East) or founded
magical cults and traditions which outlasted Sauron.

Of the five chiefs of the Istari (who are the Five Wizards whose
rods Saruman covets in LotR), all were Maiar selected by the Valar
to go to Middle Earth.  According to Manwe (p.393 of Unfinished
Tales) "...they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo
might, and clothe them- selves in flesh...  But this would imperil
them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with
fears, cares and wearinesses coming from the flesh."

Each of the Istari were chosen by a Vala.  Curumo (Saruman) was
chosen by Aule (the smith, and creator of the dwarves), and
volunteered.  Orome (the hunter, who had found the Elves when they
lived far in the East) chose Alatar (one of the Blue Wizards) who
also volunteered.  The Manwe (chief of the Valar) chose Olo'rin, who
declined, protesting that he was too weak, and feared Sauron.  Then
Manwe ordered him to go as the Third Istar (singular of Istari), but
Varda (aka Elbereth Gilthoniel, maker of the stars and patroness of
Elves) implied that he was not the third, but the first.  Yavanna
(creator of the plants and animals, who prayed that the Ents might
be created to defend them from the depredations of the dwarves, and
the wife of Aule) asked Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) with him,
and Pallando (a Blue Wizard) accompanied Alatar for the sake of
friendship.

Olo'rin is, of course, Gandalf.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 14:59:02 GMT
From: think!craig@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Stanfill)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

Lord of the Rings is clearly influenced by Christian ideas, but it
is very easy to overstate these influences and claim that LOTR is
Christian Allegory.  Bosh.

>We fail to understand LOTR if we ignore either the Heroic or the
>Christian elements.  Tolkien believed in original sin (no shock
>there, he was an ardent Catholic.) and this is made clear.  Rising
>above one's sinful ancestry is harder than falling below the glory
>of one's fore- bears.  The remnant of the race of Numenor is far
>closer to the state of the Riders before Eorl came from the North
>than the Riders will ever be to the heirs of Elros.

There is some similarity here.  The basic morality, as set out in
the Music of Illuvitar, is that Evil spreads by listening to the
Enemy's lies.  Without going into detail about theology and original
sin, there is a strong parallel here.

>It is almost too painfully obvious to point out the allegorical
>elements in LOTR, but I have seen no poster who dealt with it.
>(Apologies if I have missed a posting due to news feed problems.)
>Aragorn is a Christ figure.  NOT Christ, but a Christ figure.  He
>is returning to his king- dom after having been absent for a long
>time, and having left the kingdom in the charge of stewards.
>
>He endures temptation, passes through Hell, and redeems his people.
>The death and resurrection are provided by Gandalf, the second
>Christ figure.  He began despised and rejected of men, a man of
>sorrows and acquainted with grief.  Need I go on?
>
>The heroic Christ figure (Aragorn) and the semi-divine Christ
>figure (Gandalf) are in the end overshadowed by the humble Christ
>figure (Frodo).  He undergoes symbolic death and resurrection (trip
>through Mordor and his rescue by the Eagles) in order to provide
>salvation for those who found him of no account.

There are parallels, but no allegory.  If you substitute the word
HERO for CHRIST, the above discussion is correct.  The nature of
Christ is completely different than any of the above.

If one of these characters was the personification of Illuvitar in
the same way that, for example, the Valar are personifications of
the spirits who participated in the music, there would be an
allegory.

If Gandalf were a Man (rather than a Maiar for whom a body was a
useful convenience) his death and re-appearance might be interpreted
allegorically.  However, if we are to draw any allegory at all,
Gandalf would be an angelic visitation rather than the Christ.

If Frodo were above all temptation, incorruptible, there might be an
element of allegory.  But, remember, he did put on the ring at
Weathertop and again at the Crack of Doom, where he went so far as
to claim it for his own.  The only thing that saved him (and the
rest of the world) from utter ruin was his earlier acts of mercy
toward Gollum.  If we are to draw any allegory at all, Frodo would
be a saint: struggling constantly with temptation, sometimes giving
in (to his own loss); ultimately losing but ultimately saved by
unforeseen grace.

If Christ had come as a warrior King and emerged as the ruler of
Israel, OR if Aragorn had been treacherously slain before he could
come into his kingdom, there might be an allegory.  But Christ's
first coming, judged by the standards of the warrior King, was a
failure; he was turned out of his own Kingdom and slain; he will not
ascend his throne until his second coming.  And there is no parallel
between Aragorn's story and Christ's prophesied second coming: when
Christ returns, the victory of Good will be complete for all time.
It is clear that the return of the King is the end of one struggle,
but equally clear that Evil will arise again.

In summary, the existence of some parallels does not make for
allegory; for there to be an allegory there must be identity at the
deepest levels, rather than at the most superficial.  Consider, by
way of contrast, Dante's Divine Comedy or Lewis's Narnia books,
which WERE intended as allegory, and which do not suffer from the
sort of mis-matches I have noted above.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 09:02:38 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Tom Swift

[Old business]

From:   decwrl!crew     (Roger Crew)
> Actually, as I understand it, this was the second of 3 of these
> series.  The first was by Victor Appleton I, was written in the
> 1920's ... and had to do with Tom Swift Sr., the father of the Tom
> Swift in the second series.  The third series started fairly
> recently [within the last 10 years...] and I know almost nothing
> about it; I could take a wild guess and say it's by Victor
> Appleton III, but who knows...

Actually, the first series started in 1910 and went up to 1940.  The
third series started in 1981 and the by-line is just plain "Victor
Appleton".

> Doubtless, someone out there has a complete list of all of the
> books in all three series ('' he said categorically...  :-)

Well, I could do it, but would anyone *really* want a complete list
of all three series?

From:   elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje        (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)

> tyg@lll-crg.ARpA (Tom Galloway) writes:
>> At any rate, Charly Wingate made an error when he wrote that the
>> Jr.  series was written by "his [Victor Appleton] son". Actually
>> two errors; first, the authors were the same person, just a
>> slightly different penname [a II was attached to the Appleton],
>> and second the author was female.  I don't recall her name, but
>> her obit a few years ago mentioned that she was both names, as
>> well as the author of several other well known series, perhaps
>> including Nancy Drew and/or The Hardy Boys although I won't swear
>> to the exact series at this date.
>
> Well, I can speak with a tiny bit of authority on this, but not
> much, since my memory fails me on some particulars.  The female
> mentioned above was Helen(?) Stratemeyer, daughter of the man who
> wrote/created the Hardy Boys books (and whose real name may have
> been Franklin Adams or whatever the HB author's name is/was; if
> not, try "Frank Stratemeyer").  Her father created the Hardy Boys
> and Nancy Drew and a couple of other juvenile series, including
> Tom Swift Sr.  He wrote 'em all, too, until he started making
> enough money to hire ghost writers; then, he just plotted them
> all.  She took up the family business and eventually controlled it
> after her father's death.  At some point, it became The
> Stratemeyer Syndicate, and its office was in my home town:
> Maplewood, NJ.  If she's dead now, the business isn't.  [...]

Actually, there are a large number of mistakes in the above
articles. Edward Stratemeyer wrote a number of kids books in the
early part of the century. As stated above, he did indeed found the
Stratemeyer Syndicate that was responsible for most of the popular
and well-known kids series. However, contrary to what Chris said,
Stratemeyer didn't start writing the various series and later have
ghost writers continue with them. Almost all of the major series
that came out of the Syndicate did so after Stratemeyer founded it.

However, Stratemeyer did *not* write the Tom Swift series. He
created the central concept and wrote plot outlines for most of the
books (he died in 1930, but the series continued), but out of the 40
books in the series, the first three dozen were written by one of
the Syndicate mainstays, Howard R. Garis.  The rest were written by
Stratemeyer's daughter, Harriet Adams, who also took control over
the Syndicate when he died.

The same is true of most of the other series done by the Syndicate.
A little less than half of the Hardy Boys series was written by
Leslie McFarlane (he even wrote an book about his experiences with
the Syndicate, called GHOST OF THE HARDY BOYS), most of the rest
again being by Harriet Adams. Adams was also almost totally
responsible for the Nancy Drew series, as well as the revised
versions of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew books.

The other two major Stratemeyer series that are of interest to the
sf field were both written under the name Roy Rockwood.  I believe
(but have read nothing that confirms one way or the other) that
Stratemeyer wrote many of the Bomba the Jungle Boy novels himself,
though both McFarlane and Garis worked on them too. Garis also
wrote, from Stratemeyer's outlines, most if not all of the "Great
Marvel" series (BY AIR EXPRESS TO VENUS, BY SPACE SHIP TO SATURN,
FIVE THOUSAND MILES UNDERGROUND, et alia).  Incidentally, Garis'
main claim to fame is having created and written (all on his own,
not for the Syndicate) the "Uncle Wiggily" series. All together, he
write about 15,000 (that's right, *thousand*) UW stories, most of
them vignettes.

The Tom Swift Jr. series was started in the 50's by Harriet Adams,
under the name "Victor Appleton II", to foster the idea that Tom Jr.
was being written by Victor Jr. She outlined all of the books, and
may have actually written some, though one source lists "assistants"
for each book. To what degree this assistance reaches is unknown. As
previous articles mentioned, this second series was heavily tied
into the first series, carrying over characters, locales, etc.

The most recent Tom Swift series is a real curiosity. As Ted Nolan
mentioned, it has almost no ties at all to the previous two series.
In fact, other than the name of the protagonist, his father, the
company they run, and the town in which it's situated, it has
absolutely *nothing* in common with the previous series. In fact,
only in one place (in the first book) is young Tom's father's first
name given as "Tom"; otherwise, he's known only as "Mr. Swift", so
if it wasn't for that one reference, it wouldn't even be clear that
the main character is a Tom Jr. (he's never referred to *once* as
"Jr."). None of the other characters, inventions, etc. from the TSJ
series makes an appearance in the new series.
        As to authorship on this series goes, it's contracted to
"outside" people (from what I understand, the Syndicate doesn't keep
its own stable of writers anymore, but contracts with various
individuals). I had a talk with Bob Vardeman at a con a few years
back about this series. If I can recall correctly (stupid me didn't
think to write it down), the bulk (if not all) of the first half
dozen were written by Sharman DiVono, with Andy Offutt doing at
least one, and I think Vardeman himself did one as well. But I can't
confirm any of this.

My information for all this comes from various sources, not the
least of which is Diedre Johnson's STRATEMEYER PSEUDONYMS AND SERIES
BOOKS: AN ANNOTATED CHECKLIST OF STRATEMEYER AND STRATEMEYER
SYNDICATE PUBLICATIONS (Greenwood Press, 1982).


--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 21:13:06 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Brief review

Dozois, ed., *The Year's Best Science Fiction: fourth annual
collection*

This keeps up the high standards of the previous anthologies edited
by Dozois, and has the advantage of being bigger and coming out
sooner: hard to beat.  In the past, Dozois has included several
novellas, a form which many feel makes is ideal for sf; this year,
there is only one, Lucius Shepard's nebula-winning "R&R".  There are
several excellent novellettes and short stories, from people like
Connie Willis, Orson Scott Card, William Gibson, Tanith Lee, etc.
Not as impressive as last year's version (probably because the year
itself was less impressive), but definitely worth having.

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Jun 87 0755-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #303
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 87 0755-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #303
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 303

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Doctor Who (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 13:44:32 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu.UUCP writes:
> Seriously, Hartnell never had a control room like that in the
> existing episodes. The same is for Troughton. Though the 1st
> season of Troughton is missing, hints lead me to believe the room
> was not like that then. Maybe it's from Pre-Chesterton days, You
> know, before the Series began? I tend to think it a JN-T
> Inconsistency. :-> Even if it was before his time, It was his
> fault! :->

   I (once again) stand corrected.  As I said, I ASSUMED it was a
previously (in terms of the series) used control room.  But as Felix
Unger says, one should never assume, for when you do you make an ASS
out of U and ME.
   It would have been nice if it had been a control room from an
earlier Doctor. Oh well ....

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 10:23:34 GMT
From: towers@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Towers)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

trekker@bucc2.UUCP writes:
>   Anyway, I missed some of the episodes, and there are a few
>changes I never saw the cause of.
>   1.  Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with
>       Doctor?

The Doctor got a call from Gallifrey asking him to return
immediately, I can't remember why, but he decided that Sarah
couldn't go there and returned her to Earth.

>   2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?

The Doctor was wandering around the Tardis one day for no apparent
reason and stumbled across an old control room he hadn't used for
ages, and so decided to use it for a while.  As far as I remember
the BBC had just had a fire in one of their studios and the old
Tardis set was severely damaged, and this old control room was all
they could throw together in the short time available before
shooting had to start.  Not that they did a bad job...

>   3.  Why are there no female timelords?

There are, they just don't appear very often.  In the 'Key to Time'
series (a few years on from the ones you are watching now) the
Doctor is joined by a female Time Lord who remains for two further
seasons.

>   4.  Are the Dr. Who novels worth reading?  Are they cranked out
>       monthly like Trek novels and are often just as badly
>       written?

If you are under ten then they are very exciting.  Older then that
and they begin to pale somewhat...


langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) writes:
>Seriously, Hartnell never had a control room like that in the
>existing episodes. The same is for Troughton. Though the 1st season
>of Troughton is missing, hints lead me to believe the room was not
>like that then. Maybe it's from Pre-Chesterton days, You know,
>before the Series began? I tend to think it a JN-T Inconsistency.
>:-> Even if it was before his time, It was his fault! :->

What is inconsistent about showing a part of the Tardis that has not
been seen before in the series?  The Doctor explained that it was
the old console room, and this was made plausible by the presence of
one of Pertwee's ruffled shirts and Troughton's recorder.  The mere
fact that neither Pertwee nor Troughton was ever actually shown in
this room does not mean it didn't exist.  Presumably the Tardis has
bathrooms, even though I don't recall one ever being shown.

Dave Seaman
ags@j.cc.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 17:10:54 GMT
From: cmcl2!psuvax1!pitt!cisunx!cmf@RUTGERS.EDU (Carl M. Fongheiser)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes:
>It is hard to say which book is the best, there are a number of
>good ones.
>
>It is VERY EASY to say which is worst!  (This wasn't true a few
>weeks ago!)  It must be "Slipback" by Eric Saward.  This is the
>only novelisation that I couldn't finish.  BAD BAD BAD.  Avoid if
>at all possible.

I haven't read "Slipback" yet, but my vote for worst would have to
be "The Awakening".  It's the only one (out of some 20 I've read)
that really DRAGGED!

Carl Fongheiser
...!pitt!cisunx!cmf
cmf@pittvms.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 11:43:09 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: romana

Andrew Weeks writes:
> She was played initially by Mary Tamm (as in the Odessa File) and
> then by an actress whose name slips my mind but who is now, I
> think, Mrs.  Tom Baker.

Lalla Ward.  or more correctly known as the Honourable Sarah Ward,
daughter of the Viscount and Viscountess Bangor.  She was Mrs. Tom
Baker for about 16 months, beginning in 1981.  But Lalla is quoted
as saying "We were committed every bit as much to our careers as we
were to one another.  It's that which has driven us apart."

Reference: "Doctor Who: A Celebration (Two Decades Through Time and
Space)", by Peter Haining.  Text was mercilessly copied without
permission.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 12:53:22 GMT
From: feb@cblpe.att.com (Franco Barber)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>I can only claim temporary memory bank failure for forgetting about
>Romana.  She is indeed the first female Timelord I remember seeing.

Wasn't there a female time lord in "The Invasion of Time?" I am
referring to the lady working in the security center whom Leela
meets. I am pretty certain she was said to be a time lord.

Franco Barber
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Columbus, Ohio
..!cbosgd!cbplf!cblpe!feb
(614) 860-7803

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 18:48:13 GMT
From: lll-lcc!leadsv!berg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gail Berg)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries (old console room)

ags@j.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Seaman) writes:
> mean it didn't exist.  Presumably the Tardis has bathrooms, even
> though I don't recall one ever being shown.

Well, in the Invasion of Time (I'm not sure about the title, its
Leela's last one), we get a guided tour of the TARDIS.  One of the
council members stays a few minutes avoiding the Sontarans in a
large room, with pool and tropical plants.  This is one time we see
a lot more of the TARDIS than just the control room.  Since we
haven't seen them since, one can assume that they were jettisoned
in Castrovalva.

Gail Berg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 22:47:13 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

>   The local PBS station started showing Dr. Who episodes from the
>first season with Tom Baker earlier this year, and I've thought
>some of the recent ones they've been showing like "Face of Evil"
>were pretty good.

Our PBS station has shown Tom Baker's generation 3 times now.  I
find "Face of Evil" very good, with the Doctor on top form.
Possibly the best one, though, is "Pyramids of Mars".

>They seem to be better when they don't have stories where a guy in
>a monster suit staggers around stomping on cardboard minitures or
>strangling bad actors.

Of how many sf series can that not be said?  I can think of few that
haven't suffered: look at the Gorn, or the lava creature, in Star
Trek.  Fortunately, Dr. Who does not require special effects skill
for its results.  The most enjoyable parts, I always feel, are the
lines: mostly the Doctor's, but often his companions' too.

>They've gotta do something about that costume designer, though.  He
>or she seems to create the gaudiest, goofiest outfits, I've ever
>seen.  They needed someone like William Theiss from the Star Trek
>series.  Now that lad could design costumes.  Especially for the
>female guest stars!

Excuse me?  Are we watching the same series?  Of exactly what
costumes in Dr. Who are you thinking?  I think his outfits are
great, Sarah's are usually very good, and the costuming in general
for episodes set in the past is excellent (for those set in the
future, often a bit plastic and artificial, it's true).  But if you
haven't yet seen "Pyramid of Mars", "Masque of Mandragora", or
"Talons of Weng-Chiang", you're in for a treat.  They are
magnificently set.  I suspect they used BBC props from much bigger,
more expensive productions.

And I find it hard to see how black slacks, a {red,green,blue}
pullover and black boots can compete.  Or were you thinking of
Leslie Parrish's costume in "Who Mourns for Adonis?", or Droxene's
in "The Cloud Minders"?  Sorry, but despite having seen every
episode at least 3 times, I can't think of any other examples of
superior costuming.

No, I have to say that I'm often very impressed with the uniforms
and costumes on Dr. Who.

>  1.  Why did Miss Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) stop travelling with
>      Doctor?

After a particularly trying bout of complaining to the Doctor when
he wasn't listening at all, Sarah threatened to pack up and go home.
Although she was pretty vehement at the time, she didn't really mean
it; but the Doctor received an urgent call to return to Gallifrey,
and he couldn't take her.  So her threat was realised after all.  If
you haven't seen this episode, try to get it.  The parting, right at
the end, is very nicely done: very good performances from both Tom
Baker and Elisabeth Sladen.  In fact, he says "Until we meet again,
Sarah" so convincingly that I was sure he'd be coming back to pick
her up.  I was disappointed when he did't.

>  2.  How did the interior of the Tardis get remodeled?

The TARDIS' interior is constantly in flux.  Compare the walls of
number 1 control room in "Planet of Evil" or "Pyramids of Mars" to
those at the end of the Doctor's 4th generation.  Then look back at
"the Three Doctors", in his 3rd generation: the "monitor" is a TV
hanging on a bracket, with a wall of translucent blue behind it.

Also, little is shown of the inner areas of the TARDIS until
relatively late in the 4th generation.  I believe the first time
it's seen is in "Invasion of Time", and it has dozens of rooms, many
levels, swimming pools, etc., etc., mostly configured to resemble
early 20th century utilitarian style.  Yet later it seems only to be
one room, with an old-fashioned fridge and a desk ("Stones of
Blood").  At the end of the 4th generation, it is full of corridors
and rooms all of the same style (white walls with roundels), with a
cloister buried somewhere within it.  And at least two instances
are shown where the internal configuration is explicitly changed
from the main console.

>  3.  Why are there no female timelords?

Romanadvoradnalunda would not appreciate that question.  Neither
would Chancellor Flavia.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 22:57:14 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sorry, but Re: Dr. Who queries

> I also think they don't like aliens in the Penaptagon.

Excuse me, but I believe: "Panopticon".  According to the Oxford,
it's derived from Greek and means, approximately, a place where all
can be seen at once.  Also, the dictionary says it was meant
originally to apply to a new style of jail, where all the convicts
could be watched at once.  I wonder, considering the Doctor's
feelings toward Gallifrey, whether there is not an intentional hint
there.

They certainly didn't greet Leela very kindly when she was there,
and she's the only non-invading alien I know of who was ever on
Gallifrey.  (The Sontarans and the Vardans didn't much care how
welcome they were.)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 12:16:36 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes:
>>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if
>>whatever follows will be near her equal.  (Although Harry did come
>>close...)
>I disagree!!!  While I liked Jo Grant alot and was very sorry to
>see her leave,

Jo Grant was the last (and only?) companion the Doctor really loved.

(Comments about Tom Baker and Lalla Ward DO NOT APPLY)

>The companion that followed was much better!!!  They even made a
>spinoff starring her!  Wheras they didn't even bother showing L**L*
>on five doctors and she was on Galifrey!

Perhaps that is because Louise Jameson's acting career has continued
on to reach new heights!  This resulted in her being unavailable!
(Actually, the real reason will be explained later.)

Since Doctor Who, Louise has had three major roles.

She was Blanche in "Tenko"  (currently on NJN, Monday nights 9PM)

She was in "The Omega Factor"  (Forgot the part, but she was a
regular.)

She is currently, as I type this, working on Jersey in "Bergerac", a
detective show.  (currently on NJN, Tuesday nights 9PM)

Apart from K-9 and Company, I'd have difficulty remembering any of
Lis Sladen's other parts.

(From what I understand, the real reason is that because Tom Baker
wasn't really appearing, they didn't want any of his companions
there, either.)

>>The next companion a time lord!  Ha!  She could hardly read a
>>watch!
>And what about Leela?  Excuse me can you tell me... what is... waht
>does profishent (spelled the way she would) mean?

Leela was supposed to be a savage.  Her inability to read a watch
was due to not having been raised with them.

Could Sarah Jane fire a bow or use a Janus Thorn without killing
herself?  I doubt it.  Does that detract even further from her
character?  No, because it wasn't part of it.

>>He would have been better off if he had.
>If we were talking about the episodes immediately after
>Deadly Assassin/Hand of Fear I would agree with you!

If I remember correctly, he left without a companion at the end of
both stories, and went on to find a lovely young lady.

>>Very good!  Full marks.  It's a real shame that, since Pat
>>Troughton, there have only been three companions who were really
>>worth their weight: Jo Grant, Leela, and Romana.
>More like the Second Romanadvoratrelundar and Sarah Jane Smith!
>(OMIGOD!  I mentioned HER name!

I did include the former, but not the later.

Sarah Jane Smith may be the worst companion in terms of consistency.

She was supposed to be a feminist, and failed miserably there.  She
was supposed to be a stronger character, yet was a screamer (aren't
they all. :-)

I am very disappointed in her character for that.

I will admit that she is not my least favorite, there are may worse.
I just don't think she holds a candle to Leela, Jo Grant, Harry
Sullivan, Brigadier Alastair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, and others.

James C. Armstrong, Jnr.
(nicmad,ulysses,ihnp4)!terminus!nyssa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 17:57:21 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)

nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes:
>pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Starbuck) writes:
>[ L**se wasn't in Five Doctors...]

>Perhaps that is because Louise Jameson's acting career has
>continued on to reach new heights!  This resulted in her being
>unavailable!  (Actually, the real reason will be explained later.)
>
>Since Doctor Who, Louise has had three major roles.. . .
>
>Apart from K-9 and Company, I'd have difficulty remembering any of
>Lis Sladen's other parts.

A FULL posting of Elisabeth Sladen's roles will appear in the near
future!

>(From what I understand, the real reason is that because Tom Baker
>wasn't really appearing, they didn't want any of his companions
>there, either.)

Oh, Like the Brigadier, Sarah, Tegan. . .

>Could Sarah Jane fire a bow or use a Janus Thorn without killing
>herself?  I doubt it.  Does that detract even further from her
>character?  No, because it wasn't part of it.

AHEM!  I would bring your attention to the episode "Pyramids of
MArs".  Sarah is an excellent shot with a rifle.

In "Time Warrior" The head of the "good" castle wished he had a
dozen more warriors like Sarah as opposed to his regular soldiers.

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
UUCP:  rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!pearl
ARPA:  PEARL@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU
US MAIL:  LPO 12749 CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Jun 87 0821-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #304
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 87 0821-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #304
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 304

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bradley (3 msgs) & Elgin &
                         Heinlein (4 msgs) & 
                         Lovecraft (2 msgs) &
                         Sturgeon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 16:14:13 GMT
From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Women in SF

wwd@rruxg.UUCP writes:
>ewe@duke.UUCP writes:
>> Another good Darkover book by MZB is Hawkmistress!
>A warning: MZB has shown very right wing allegiance, for example
>support of Nixon on Vietnam. Whenever I now read her stuff it now
>seems rather fascist to me. I guess this brings up the question if
>women's liberation can be separated from other liberation....

   This is silly. I'm not especially an MZB fan, but my opinion of
her books, and the books of any other author, have nothing to do
with their politics. If you insist an author be politically correct
before you'll read their books, you're going to cheat yourself out
of a lot of fine reading.
   Someone's disagreeing with you politically is not equivalent to
their being criminals or creeps. Ease up a little - reading opinions
you disagree with can be one of the most stimulating forms of
intellectual entertainment.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{dual,seismo,ihnp4,hplabs}!ames!aurora!barry

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 20:38:50 GMT
From: seismo!sun!apple!zardoz@RUTGERS.EDU (Phil Wayne)
Subject: Re: Women in SF

Thank you, Kenn. I *KNOW THE LADY IN QUESTION* and for her to
endorse war is the most unlikely thing I can think of. I don't know
where he heard it.  but let me straighten him out right now. Marion
is one of most pacifistic people I know.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 17:23:59 GMT
From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Women in SF (really politics in writing)

barry@aurora.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>    This is silly. I'm not especially an MZB fan, but my opinion of
> her books, and the books of any other author, have nothing to do
> with their politics. If you insist an author be politically
> correct before you'll read their books, you're going to cheat
> yourself out of a lot of fine reading.

   I agree with you that one shouldn't refuse to read someone's
books just because they hold political opinions you disagree with,
but it is often impossible to divorce the book from the political
opinions of the author.  When the author feels they have to present
their political convictions at the expense of a believable plot
and/or character development, then you are no longer in any danger
of cheating yourself out a lot of fine reading, because it is simply
not there.

   I am an MZB fan, and have, I believe, everything she has
published, with the exception of a couple of soft-porn novels
published under a pseudonym many years ago.  In general, I like her
books.  Unfortunately, lately she has gotten on a soapbox, which is
getting kind of tiresome.  I, for one, am tired of reading about
Free Amazons who find true fulfillment only with each other.  I have
nothing against the idea of people finding that lifestyle
fulfilling, but lately she doesn't seem interested in anything else.
Some of her recent stuff has been very good (i.e. Mists of Avalon),
but my reaction to her Darkover books lately is 'Oh God, not ANOTHER
book about Magda'.  She's long since made the philosophical point,
and it's high time she at least found another way of expressing it,
if not moved on to other issues.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
PHONE: (617) 863-5500 ext. 816-2211

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 18:28:54 GMT
From: chavey@speedy.wisc.edu (Darrah Chavey)
Subject: Re: Women in SF

wwd@rruxg.UUCP writes:
> Anyway another writer of note is Suzette Haden Elgin.

I just started reading this newsgroup again after a long pause.  Did
I miss something?  Are we building a list of Women in SF?  Our local
Con (WisCon) every year has a panel on "Little Known Women Authors
in SF".  If there is interest, I can probably re-compile much of the
recommendations from this panel.  Suzette Haden Elgin, by the way,
has been our GoH, and is a regular attendee at WisCon.  I also
recommend her works.

Darrah Chavey
Computer Sciences Department
University of Wisconsin, Madison WI
chavey@cs.wisc.edu
...{ihnp4,seismo,allegra}!uwvax!chavey

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 03:55:17 GMT
From: c60a-4er@tart7.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (Class Account)
Subject: Re: Cat Who Walks Through Walls cover screw-up?

nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>Later in the book, while on the hospital planet (or whatever it is)
>Ames gets a tranplanted leg from Lazarus (one of his spares).  This
>makes less and less sense, because if Ames matches "Sambo" and
>Lazarus matches Ames, then Lararus is also black.  That still
>leaves the fellow on the cover a mystery.  Or there is an error or
>two in the book, and all those fellows shouldn't match.

Not to argue with the main point--the cover is almost certainly
screwed up-- but unless they're tissue typing for a lot more factors
in _Cat_ than they do today, it is quite possible for a black,
especially one of North American background, to be an acceptable
tissue match for a white.  Only a few dozen genes are involved,
several inherited as a linked group, and the most common Caucasian
tissue types are quite common in American blacks.  (You can't use
tissue antigens to reliably determine an individual's race, although
you can easily distinguish <groups> of Caucasians and Negros by
frequencies.)
     Taking a break from a research project on this very system....

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 87 17:27:19 edt
From: mike@thumper.bellcore.com (Mike A. Caplinger at
From: thumper.bellcore.com)
Subject: TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, Heinlein's latest -- short review

I guess since I have a real job I shouldn't begrudge the money it
cost me to buy TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET.  But I wish it had been
quite a bit better anyway.  I'm afraid this about wraps it up for
RAH.

If there was a plot, I'd describe it.  But this is essentially just
the day-to-day life story of one Maureen Johnson Smith, mother of
Woodrow Wilson Smith aka Lazarus Long, from her birth to about 1982
and then a few thousand years later.

We get a lot of moralizing from Heinlein, but it's pretty
indigestible now; far worse than even STARSHIP TROOPERS or STRANGER
IN A STRANGE LAND.  If anything actually *happened* to Maureen, this
book might be OK.  But her life is, well, pretty boring.  Aside from
some domestic details about life as a member of the Howard Families
(replete with tiresome Heinleinesque descriptions of group sex and
incest) and two or three interesting echoes of Future History
events, this is pretty dull stuff.

It's kind of a shame, since Heinlein can still write well on a micro
level; but he can't sustain a plot any more.  It's really quite sad.

Don't even read this to find out what happened after the end of THE
CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS.  In fact, I hate to say it, but I liked
SUNSET even less than NUMBER OF THE BEAST.

For Heinlein completists only, and even they should wait for the
paperback.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.com
{decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 06:17:33 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Homophobia & SIASL (One More Time)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>> Regret, yes, if appropriate.  I think the real problem that many
>>people have with Heinlein is that he doesn't automatically include
>>the reader on the side of the "good guys".  While mapping out his
>>own form of idealism, he is apt to ridicule at least one of the
>>readers beliefs or cherished institutions.  He makes it plain that
>>you have to strive to become one of his chosen, not just be there
>>or agree with him.
>
> Say what?  Heinlein's not trying to get you on anyone's side --
> he's trying to make his readers THINK!  For example, he is on
> quote in EXPANDED UNIVERSE as saying that STARSHIP TROOPERS was
> *not* intended to say that his proposed government/voting rights
> were the best ones or the ones he wanted; it was intended to make
> people CONSIDER what such a government would be like.  And
> hopefully to gain insight into government and voting practices in
> the process.  (The Witness knows that most U.S.A. residents need
> to learn one heck of a lot more about both!)

The point was "identification with protagonist(s)", not good
guys/bad guys.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 21:13:06 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Brief review

Heinlein, *To Sail Beyond the Sunset*

Now this is quite a surprise.  It continues Heinlein's scheme of
using the idea of parallel universes and the "World-as-Myth" to
unify all of his novels, and to allow him to congregate all his
favorite characters into a big happy family.  This usually makes for
very in-groupish and formless books (at least I think so), but this
time it works pretty well, because the book is basically the memoirs
of Maureen Johnson, the mother of Lazarus Long.  As such, most of
its time is spent in the past, and its main concerns are the
fundamental ones of sex, family, and money.  This offers ample
opportunity for Heinlein's pontifications on these subjects, but it
makes for an interesting story nevertheless.  Most of the book is
concerned with the early twentieth century, and one senses that
Heinlein is drawing on his own experience to tell the tale.  Once we
get to World War II, it becomes clear that this is an alternative
history (it follows the events of the "Future History" stories),
which is interesting at least by showing how incredibly optimistic
Heinlein's original vision of the future was.  Heinlein's opinions
are, of course, offered throughout; even though I find myself
disagreeing with him in almost everything, I found this book much
more readable than the previous ones.  In fact, I like it better
than anything since "Friday".

The ending makes me suspect that Heinlein expects this to be his
last book, or at least the last of this cycle.  This is also
suggested by the list of references to other stories which can be
found at the back.  Does anyone know what Heinlein's plans are?

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA 1
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 20:59:27 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft recommendations?

jca@drutx.ATT.COM (ArnsonJC) writes:
>As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be
>called a book and not a short story.  The title is "The Case of
>Charles Dexter Ward".  Finding a copy may be difficult as I have
>been told it is out of print.  My copy is in paperback by Penguin
>and the date is 1963(?)

Not true.  _The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath_ is a full blown novel
and it is longer than -The Case of Charles Dexter Ward_.

Check your bookstores.  Almost all of Lovecraft's stories are being
reprinted.  There are hardcovers published by Arkham House and
paperbacks done by somebody (sorry, don't recall publisher off-hand
-- spines are red lettering on black).

Biased opinion: Check out the "Call of Cthulhu" Role-Playing Game,
published by the Chaosium.

Latest product in the CoC universe: "The Miskatonic Matriculation
Kit".  Includes: Student ID, MU Bumper Sticker ("Go 'Pods!"), Map of
Campus, Catalog from School of Mediaeval Metaphysics, Diploma, Frame
for above, etc.

Coming soon: Cthulhu Flashcards

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 15:53:22 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies

>So I'm not the only one who saw a similarity between The Thing and
>At the Mountains of Madness, eh?  It struck me immediately when I
>saw the movie, ...

   Superficially, yes, I agree there are resemblances.  Carpenter's
_The Thing_ is based on JW Campbell's excellent horror/SF short
story, _Who Goes There?_ as you no doubt know, and is more faithful
to the original than the 50's movie (but I prefer the 50's version
to Carpenter's anyway).  The HPL story you are alluding to is _At
The Mountains Of Madness_.  I recommend it for a reading, provided
you can handle HPL's writing style (newspaper report- ish, roughly
reminiscent of Bram Stoker's _Dracula_).  HPL would have the Thing
leading the Antarctic explorers deep into Unknown Trails Underground
to a lost civilization of intelligent dinosaurs...[and lunch:^].
   I recommend, if you like HPL's forays into Fantasy like Randolph
Carter in Opium-Land (_DoUK_), that you start reading two of *his*
literary ancestors, James Branch Cabell and Lord Dunsany.
   I prefer HPL's brand of Horror to the modern Stephen King stuff,
although I may read a little of Wheatley before I give up on the
Traditionalists entirely.

>movie called Yog seemed to have some elements of The Colour Out Of
>Space.

   Yogg-Sothoth... That would be _The Dunwich Horror_ (?) with Nick
Adams?

>There was a movie called "20,000,000 Years to Earth" or something
>like that (i don't have my book with me) that dealt with Londoners
>finding this buried space ship when they were excavating for a
>subway or something, and it seemed

   "5 Million Years to Earth" (?) the Quatermass movie, I think.

John L. Wynstra
US mail: Apt. 9G, 43-10 Kissena Blvd., Flushing, N.Y., 11355
UUCP:    john@bc-cis.UUCP { eg, rutgers!cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john }

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 18:30:37 GMT
From: cbmvax.cbm!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: In praise of Ted Sturgeon

From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA>
> My other Sturgeon is _Godbody_, probably the last thing he wrote
> before he died in May, 1985.  It contains a short essay in parise
> of Sturgeon by Robert A. Heinlein.  As RAH says, the book's
> message is "Love one another."  Good stuff -- I liked it, though I
> know that others didn't.

I thought it was pretty good myself.  It also has a rather
interesting afterword by Stephan Donaldson.  Anyway, it's one of
those books you're going to either read in one sitting or toss after
10 minutes, depending on personal predispostions...

> Let's hear more about Ted Sturgeon.  In particular, does anyone
> know of anything else in prnt?

Somebody asked about "More than Human" - it's apparently in print
and available as a DelRey paperback.  There are usually several
Sturgeon books available in the local bookstore, but an occasional
raid on your favorite used book store will be needed to build up a
complete collection.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Jun 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #305
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #305
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 305

Today's Topics:

       Miscellaneous - T-Shirts & Phoney Subscription Offer &
                       Missing Filkers & Conventions (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 87 11:27:37 CDT
From: PM - Aviation Life Support <AMCPM.ALSE@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: T-Shirts

Nigel was asking about T-Shirts.  I might be able to help if anybody
is interested in getting some made. There is an outfit in Texas that
is pretty reasonably priced, there is No Art Charge, No Screen
Charge and all shirts are made in the USA they ship in 7 working
days.

Namark of Texas
3701-B WOW
Corpus Christi, TX 78413
(512) 852-0252 in Texas
1-800-531-1031 in the US

So what do you folks think?
Please contact me if you are interested in getting more information.

Ed

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: sf - new science fiction stories lifetime sub offer

     For the past few months (and perhaps earlier) in various
periodicals, e.g.  Locus, and in some convention program booklets,
e.g. Balticon, there has been a lifetime subscription offer to sf -
new science fiction stories. It would "feature stories by Hugo and
Nebula award-winning authors.  In addition, look for Spider
Robinson's great new column, "Antinomy Mine," and George Alec
Effinger's book reviews."  This looked like very tempting offer and
a few weeks ago I feel prey to the temptation.  Unfortunately, it
looks like I should have waited a few more weeks until my June Locus
arrived.  Apparently this magazine has folded without ever
appearing.  Locus says that the publisher says that they did not
receive "enough quality submissions ... to fill more than one
issue."
     I would like to hear from any other person who sent money in.
Have your checks been cashed?  Have you received a refund of your
money or a return of your check?  Have you heard anything?  At this
moment my check has not been cashed and I would like to know if
there is any chance that I will receive my check back.  I would
guess that the magazine probably folded even before they received my
check.

Neil A. Ottenstein
ARPANET: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
BITNET: OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 22:31:37 GMT
From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond)
Subject: Missing Filkers

The folks who are going to bring you the revised NESFA hymnal are
hard at work. They have material from seven people that they don't
have current addresses (USnail, not e-net) for, and need to get in
touch with these people. If you have a US Mail address for any of
them (or know someone who does, or how I might find one, or even if
you ARE one of these people) please contact me via e-mail, and I
will pass the info back to the right people at NESFA. Thanks!

(and the names are......)

Bad Company                     Vinnie Bartilucci
Charlie (Dr. Orbit) Belov       David Bradman (Livermore Crew)
Cheshire Catalyst               Tom Digby
Mike McNally

Susan Hammond
svh@CCA.CCA.COM
{decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 87 15:34:53 cdt
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Conventions & Huckster Rooms

Several conventions I have been to DO have provision for letting the
general public into the art show and dealer's room (and the art
auction, when they remember that people who have been to the art
show might like to buy something, too).  In my experience, it has
always been a $1 or $2 charge, and not generally advertised - people
had to come in off the street and ask if they could get in without
being a convention member.

Archon, here in St. Louis, is one of the cons with a policy like
this.  Also, for the first time this year, a dealer gets 1 free
membership with his table(s) and the cost of the tables was NOT
inflated to account for the lost membership fees (I don't know what
other cons do about this; I know many give memberships with tables,
but I don't know if they increase their table fees to cover it in
any way).

Some cons have special tables/table rates for fans, local clubs,
swappers, etc., but they're not frequently advertised - you pretty
much have to write or call and ask the con committee about "fan"
tables.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 87 18:23:36 EDT
From: ingria@PREP.AI.MIT.EDU (Bob Ingria)
Subject: Readercon

                    Readercon Final Announcement

Where: Holiday Inn of Boston at Brookline
       Brookline, Mass.

When:  Saturday, June 27, 1987 - Sunday, June 28, 1987

Who:   Writer G.O.H.      Gene Wolfe
       Publisher G.O.H.   Mark Ziesing

  Other guests: James Morrow, Geary Gravel, David Hartwell,
  Craig Shaw Gardner, Darrell Schweitzer, Ellen Kushner,
  J.F. Rivkin, Stanley Wiater, Michael Swanwick,
  James Patrick Kelly, Terri Windling, Jeffrey A. Carver,
  and others

What:

Readercon will be a place where people who relate to imaginative
literature as literature can gather, a place where readers can meet
writers, publishers, editors, critics, and each other in a pleasant,
fun atmosphere suited to intelligent, lively discussion of ideas.
The program will include:

Panels
Discussion Groups
Readings
Hucksters' Room and Auctions
Speeches and Interviews with Guests of Honor

but:

No Video, Film, or Gaming programs
No events for costumes
No weapons (period)
No pets
No art show (this year)

Deadlines: Pre-registration:    June 5, 1987
           Hotel registration:  June 6, 1987

For more information call:

Bob Colby
(617) 576-0415
evenings (Eastern Daylight Time)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 09:27:35 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

From:   Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
> ...but it is in the interest of the people selling stuff there to
> get as many people into that room as possible, not limited to
> those officially attending the con. Also, it appears that the
> people who are *working* in the huckster room, sitting behind the
> tables and selling stuff, get no benefit from the con programming
> or other functions, and really should not be required to have con
> memberships or pay attendance.  That is, they have to spend all
> their time sitting or standing in there, working at selling stuff,
> so they can't go to panels, see films, or anything else but work
> at peddling their wares. So why should they pay for con benefits
> they cannot enjoy? They (or their employer) have already paid for
> the table space, after all.
> This leads me to think that it would be best if the huckster room
> was treated as "external" to the rest of the con. That is, anyone
> from off the street can come into the huckster room and buy stuff,
> and the people working in that area have no need to have con
> memberships or officially "attend" the con....
>
> As far as I could see at the few cons I've attended, this has NOT
> been the case. The people working in the huckster room had to buy
> memberships or pay admission to the con, in addition to paying for
> their tables.  ...In addition, the huckster room was not
> accessible to the general public; you had to display a con badge
> or pass to get into it.  [...]  Maybe I'm wrong. Do cons in
> general operate the way I have described, or am I under a
> misapprehension? Are there cons where the huckster room is
> accessible to the general public in addition to the con attendees?

Yes, you are under a misapprehension. Actually, a couple.

For one, I have attended cons where the huckster room was open to
the general public, for precisely the reasons you list. I've also
been to cons where there was a special class of membership, at a
reduced rate, which entitled the person to access the hucksters'
room but not the rest of the con.

Secondly, whether a dealer is "confined" to the hucksters' room is
completely up to him. I don't think I've ever been to a con at which
there *weren't* dealers who closed up their tables for an hour or
two to attend a panel they want to see, or to check out the art
show. In some cases, the dealer has a friend or assistant to watch
the table while he goes out to attend a panel or whatever. Plus,
there are plenty of cons that have programming in the evening which
the dealers can attend while the hucksters' room is closed.

And last, but not least, there are many dealers who are primarily
fans, and their first concern is attending the convention. Selling
books is merely a sideline that helps them defray the cost of
attending the con, or if its a business, it allows (or used to allow
--- I don't know how the new tax laws affect them) them to deduct
their con expenses from their taxes. One dealer I know fairly well
keeps his table open only long enough to sell enough to cover his
expenses for that con. Once he's made that, he closes down for the
rest of the con.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 21:12:06 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu (Interface Associates)
Subject: re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

Let me add a third misconception, and address some good reasons not
to have an open dealers' room.  I speak as a convention organizer,
and as a trustee who must consider the legal consequences of certain
actions.

Third misconception: dealers must always buy memberships over and
above their table price.  The purchase of a table usually includes
either a membership for the dealer, or the right to purchase
memberships at a reduced rate, or both.

Reasons not to have an open dealers' room: there are financial,
legal and tax reasons.

Financial reason: the con does not take a cut of the dealers' sales,
and does not wish to for legal and tax reasons.  If anyone wants to
come in off the street, let him purchase a one day membership.

Legal reason: attendees at a convention have signed a waiver,
absolving the convention from liability except in case of gross
negligence.  Off the street customers could hold the convention and
the hotel to a higher standard.  As it is, liability insurance is
impossible to obtain.  The additional risk is unacceptable.

Tax reason: most conventions are sponsored by 501(c)(3) tax-exempt
corporations, whose charters require the convention to be run for
public, and not for private, interests.  A dealers' room open only
to attendees is a convenience to the attendees, pursuant to the
educational and literary purposes of the convention.  An open
dealers' room might be construed by Infernal Revenue as a purely
commercial endeavor, and hence could endanger the tax-exempt status
of the convention.

Remember, the hucksters' room is a service to the attendees, and an
amenity of the convention.  It takes considerable effort to run one,
and not a little expense.  Why should the Committee WANT random
people off the street coming in without either paying or rendering
some service (such as staffing) for which free memberships are
granted?

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 22:00:42 GMT
From: mcb@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Conventions & Huckster Rooms

Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
> Let me . . . address some good reasons not to have an open
> dealers' room.  I speak as a convention organizer, and as a
> trustee who must consider the legal consequences of certain
> actions.
>
> Reasons not to have an open dealers' room: there are financial,
> legal and tax reasons.
>
> Financial reason: [. . .]
>
> Legal reason: attendees at a convention have signed a waiver,
> absolving the convention from liability except in case of gross
> negligence.  Off the street customers could hold the convention
> and the hotel to a higher standard.  As it is, liability insurance
> is impossible to obtain.  The additional risk is unacceptable.

Whoa! I have attended many conventions, and do not remember ever
signing a waiver releasing the convention or hotel from ANY
liability.  Where is this waiver? Usually you buy a membership by
filling out a short form with name and address, either in advance or
at the door, and receiving [progress reports in the case of advance
membership and] a badge and program materials. In the program book
there are usually set forth some rules about weapons policy,
costumes, rowdyness, parties, art show, etc., which may (I stress
"may") constitute contractual language, enforceable by terminating
membership with or without refund. But I have never seen a liability
waiver (which, in many states, MUST be in certain language and refer
to certain statutes) in a con membership. I would urge the author's
con com to seek competent legal advice about this matter; it sounds
like they are setting themselves up for a big disappointment
someday...

> Tax reason: most conventions are sponsored by 501(c)(3) tax-exempt
> corporations, whose charters require the convention to be run for
> public, and not for private, interests.

True of the larger cons. Many smaller ones are run by unincorporated
associations, which need only be "nonprofit" to escape taxation. Of
course, donations to them are not tax deductible as in the case of
501(c)(3) organizations.

> A dealers' room open only to attendees is a convenience to the
> attendees, pursuant to the educational and literary purposes of
> the convention.  An open dealers' room might be construed by
> Infernal Revenue as a purely commercial endeavor, and hence could
> endanger the tax-exempt status of the convention.

What?? OF COURSE tax-exempt organizations are permitted to have
"commercial endeavors". Hasn't anyone ever heard of a church rummage
sale, or bingo, or a PTA "Las Vegas night"? It is permitted to
charge for dealer booths, take a cut of the profits, or even run the
sale themselves and keep all the profits. People have some
interesting misconceptions about what a "non-profit" organization
means. It DOESN'T mean that you can't make a profit. It doesn't mean
that you can't make a HUGE profit. It DOES mean that you can't
DISTRIBUTE the profit to the owners/members of the organization. And
in the case of 501(c)(3) organizations, you must exist for one or
more reasons out of a particular set of educational, cultural,
religious, etc. purposes.

I reiterate that I hope the con com in which the author is involved
seeks some good legal advice. Regardless of the policy issues
involved in whether the hucksters' room should be open to the public
(I see good arguments on both sides), it sounds like they have
received some rather bad legal advice.

Michael C. Berch
Member of the California Bar
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis.arpa
UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Jun 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #306
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 87 0848-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #306
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 306

Today's Topics:

       Books - Computers in SF (4 msgs) & Robotech (4 msgs) &
               Cover Art (6 msgs) & Title Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: responses to digests 271:276

From SF DIGEST #276 Dick Botting asks about fictional computers:
>Do you know of any others? What do you think of them.

I cannot think of any that have not already been mentioned that I,
myself, have read.  Nevertheless, at DISCLAVE there was talk about a
book called VALENTINA by Marc Steigler (I know the author is
correct, the title may be different, though. Valentina may just be
the main character.).  The people mentioning it were highly praising
it.  The way I remember the description Valentina supposedly lives
in a computer network or such and has to steal computer time to
survive.

NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN
Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
Bitnet:  OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 16:49 EST
From: <TCORAM%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (maroC ddoT)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

Anyone heard of these Fictional Computer books?

The Cybernetic Samurai - Victor Milan
   A great AI story. An american scientist develops an AI in Japan
   with Samurai values.  The scientist, an elderly woman, develops a
   strange but believable relationaship with the AI (first as a
   mother, then as a lover). Note: The AI is not a robot, but a
   large supercomputer.

Software - Rudy Rucker
   "Preserve your software, the rest is meat".  I really like this
   one.

VALIS - Phillip K. Dick
   Well, this is stretching it a bit. The book isn't really about a
   Computer, it's about The Second Coming, Insanity, Death,
   Mythology, all tied together by the possible existence of VALIS
   (Vast Active Living Intelligence System).

Less than Human - ?? (I forgot the author)
   Kind of funny, kind of awful.  An android on the run from the
   most powerful man in the world (an ex-token black guy from IBM).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 16:51 EST
From: <HAXT2860%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: sf-computers

Another SF computer is TOGUMISHA(misspelled) in Victor Milan's
"Cybernetic Samuria". It's about a 6th generation computer developed
by an American computer scientist(women) in Japan. The computer
gains life through the Godel principle...It develops on its own
through random inputs. "True awareness is brought about through
chaos." Or "true randomness- underlies awareness is brought about
through chaos." Or "true randomness- underlies the secret of
consciousness, artificial and otherwise".

Rod Haxton

------------------------------

Date: 19-Jun-1987 1211
From: wood%genral.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Celeste :Disk Engineering
From: DTN522-2590)
Subject: Re: Robot names

How about Ralph? I think it was the name of the computer on the
"Whiz Kids" TV show... but the real claim to fame for this name is
that it is probably the first true robot name.  My English Lit Proff
held a book up in class one day and waved it at us very temptingly.
I believe the name of it was RALPH 1757 (the number could be wrong).
Anyway this book, according to my professor was the first Robot
story ever printed.  It was published circa 1910, either 1907 or
1911.  (Hey this was 4 years ago..) I no longer know the author.  I
never did find a copy of the book to read and the Prof refused to
lend his.

The robots in it are probably better termed androids today, but the
book also has an extreme number of far out inventions which are
actually real today.  I think the Prof mentioned a number like 105!

Celeste Wood

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 87 14:54:47 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Robotech Saga: The novelization

I have just finished reading the five available volumes of Robotech.

Has anyone out there read them? How many hated the ending of the
fourth book, "Battlehymn", when the narrator gives away more than he
should about the future of Lisa and Rick?

Overall the series is great. I find myself leafing through the pages
with a speed never before attained when reading other books. I stay
up late at night, not able to put the things down.

I must admit that, although it is all out of phase now, a week or so
ago, I was reading the comics, (the last two or three), watching the
TV show, and reading the novels, and everything was happening
simultaneously. The current comics, and the TV show were at the same
point as where I was in the novels. It was pretty interesting,
almost seeing the story in 3-D.

Sure, it is a sappy romance, with lots of technology thrown in, and
up until the fifth book, it is a rather light story.

So, what I want to know is:

   The last book ends with "THE END". Is it really the end of the
   Lisa and Rick/Minmei era?

   Is the sixth book in print yet?

   And if so, can someone who has it tell me if Lisa and Rick split
   up for good?

   Does it skip a generation and go directly to the Robotech Masters
   saga with Dana Sterling and all?

   Is this the last we know of Rick and Lisa?

It seems a little stupid, but I got to know.

(Most of the flames that this letter will generate will come from my
site, I know...)

If you don't want to give too much away on the net, E-mail me.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 87 23:16:11 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

     To answer one of Sean's questions, the story of Rick and Lisa
doesn't end with book 5.  In fact, it won't exactly end after book
6, but maybe that's giving too much away.

     The books are surprisingly good.  The writer has taken, what I
consider to be relatively few liberties with the material onhand.
In fact, it's closer to the TV show than the comic books.  When the
movie comes out SEE IT!  I've been looking at some Japanese
magazines which show stills from the original version.  As good as
some of the scenes were on the TV series, the movie's scenery makes
them look like they were done by pikers.  Not everything about the
movie is better than the TV series.  You simply can't develop
characters as deeply in a couple of hours as you can in 10 - 20
hours (I've never calculated).  It'll be interesting if they cut
some scenes in North America in order to slip it into a GP rating or
whether they'll leave it intact (and probably end up with a
Restricted) rating.  It raises an interesting question.

     One thing I really want to find out is whether there'll be any
new songs for Minmei to sing.  I've heard that there are *many*
record albums in Japan as spin off from the TV show.  One person
told me there were 15 *albums*.  I find that a bit hard to swallow,
but it seems clear that the people doing the voices in the Anime
generally are well known there.

Cheers!

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto
(416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 04:47:19 GMT
From: seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>One comment, though. The voicing of the TV series lacks in the
>sponteneity of live acting. In cartooning, the voices are done as
>if it were a radio play.  Then the mouths are drawn to sync with
>the voices. It gives a more natural feeling than trying to mouth
>the words in sync to an already animated face. It makes the series
>sound like it is for kids, which it certainly is not.

Robotech was originally 3 different Japanese series, done by the
same animation company. Because you need quantity, not quality in
the american market, they dicided to combine the 3, and introduce
protoculture as a linking element.

The necessary redubbing gives the "lip synch" effect; but what gives
you things like ...

He only stunned me in the legs

Lets take out there Computer escorts, Robot attack ships, Android
fighters, etc., etc.

And what are they always drinking?

Originally, it wasn't for kids. They re-aimed it at kids when they
translated it. The movie was originally marketed at kids, when they
realized that they didn't know how to market it for the adult crowds
that showed up.  Yes, the movie was done based on the american
version.  (this is what I've heard, may not be completely accurate).

Michael Gersten
seismo!scgvaxd!stb!michael

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 21:16:21 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

Jim Omura (jiomura@lsuc.UUCP) writes:
>     To answer one of Sean's questions, the story of Rick and Lisa
>doesn't end with book 5.  In fact, it won't exactly end after book
>6, but maybe that's giving too much away.

The Robotech books will comprise 12 books.  6 for Macross Saga, 3
for Southern Cross, 3 for Mospeada.  Then they will continue with
"Robotech II: The Sentinels".

>     The books are surprisingly good.  The writer has taken, what I
>consider to be relatively few liberties with the material onhand.
>In fact, it's closer to the TV show than the comic books.  When the
>movie comes out SEE IT!  I've been looking at some Japanese
>magazines which show stills from the original version.  As good as
>some of the scenes were on the TV series, the movie's scenery makes
>them look like they were done by pikers.  Not everything about the
>movie is better than the TV series.  You simply can't develop
>characters as deeply in a couple of hours as you can in 10-20 hours
>(I've never calculated).

Which movie are you referring to?  There are two: _Macross 84: Do
You Remember Love?_, and _Robotech: The Movie_.

If you mean the first, then definitely SEE IT!  The quality of
animation is absolutely INCREDIBLE!  If you mean the second, then
see _Megazone 23_ instead.  That's where Harmony Gold took it from,
plus they added some of their own animation (Yawn...).

BTW, the Macross episodes would last 15 hours (36 episodes * 25
minutes each).  Robotech may be less due to commercials.

>It'll be interesting if they cut some scenes in North America in
>order to slip it into a GP rating or whether they'll leave it
>intact (and probably end up with a Restricted) rating.  It
>raises an interesting question.

This suggests to me that you mean "Robotech: The Movie".  They cut
out all the extreme violence and nudity.  R ratings don't tend to
draw many little kids....

>     One thing I really want to find out is whether there'll be any
>new songs for Minmei to sing.  I've heard that there are *many*
>record albums in Japan as spin off from the TV show.  One person
>told me there were 15 *albums*.  I find that a bit hard to swallow,
>but it seems clear that the people doing the voices in the Anime
>generally are well known there.

Well, in "The Sentinels", Reba West (and one other singer) get
exactly one new song to sing -- a duet) (I won't explain the
circumstances).

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 12:02:56 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cca.bbn.com>
Subject: Cover Art

Before we get too down on cover artists, remember that they often
have as little control as the author over what goes on the cover.
I've heard many complaints from artists who actually take the time
to read the book and do the research, only to have their sketches
rejected by an art director who hasn't done either.  The art
director generally works for the publicity department, and there the
bottom line is "What will sell?"  Accuracy is not an issue, any more
than it is in writing back cover blurbs.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 22:09:33 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!westpt!sunybcs!canisius!salley@RUTGERS.EDU (David
From: Salley)
Subject: Cover Screw-Ups

The two worst cover screw ups that I can recall are the Star Trek
novel "Demon Lord" which depicted a nine-foot-tall feline alien as a
seven foot human and "Friday" which depicted the dark-skinned ,
dark-haired heroine as a fair-haired, fair-skinned Norwegian blonde.

David P. Salley
Usenet : ...!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!canisius!salley
Canisius College
2001 Main Street
Buffalo, New York 14208
USnail: 49 Barry Place
        Buffalo, New York 14213

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 12:06:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: responses to digests 271:276

From: kevinb@crash.cts.com (Kevin Belles)
>  Anybody know anyone besides Alan Gutierrez, Don Maitz, and
>Darrell K. Sweet who actually seem to take the time to research a
>cover?

It is not always the fault of the artist, though.  As I have heard
it at various conventions, some publishers sometimes dictate to
artists what they want to see on the cover or request arbitrary
changes to what they have done.  Often these changes have nothing to
do with the contents of the book but reflect what someone thinks
might sell more copies.

NEIL A. OTTENSTEIN
Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
Bitnet: OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 23:49:15 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups

Oh, WELL...  Have you seen Rowena's cover for the french translation
of CJCherryh's PRIDE OF CHANUR?  The title is CHANUR, and the cover
has a very muscular cat-man (human with cat-like face, a close layer
of reddish-brown fur, a mane and cat ears) holding a very
weak-looking cat-woman (out of hollywood) in his arms.  If you've
even read the back cover blurbs of the english version, you'll know
just how ridiculous this is!

Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do?  I know
not all cover artists CAN get access to manuscripts and authors'
input as people like Whelan do, but I don't like Rowena's work on
it's OWN.

Becky

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 18:02:20 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups

salley@canisius.UUCP (David Salley) writes:
> The two worst cover screw ups that I can recall are the Star Trek
> novel "Demon Lord" which depicted a nine-foot-tall feline alien as
> a seven foot human and "Friday" which depicted the dark-skinned ,
> dark-haired heroine as a fair-haired, fair-skinned Norwegian
> blonde.

   Well, another one is the poster/cover for Star Trek IV.  San
Fransisco is on the wrong side of the Golden Gate Bridge.

Eiji Hirai
USMail: Swarthmore College
        Swarthmore PA 19081
phone: for the summer it's (215)544-5349
UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 16:41:01 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do?  I
>know not all cover artists CAN get access to manuscripts and
>authors' input as people like Whelan do, but I don't like Rowena's
>work on it's OWN.

Rowena Morrill seems to have a pre-occupation with bare skin.  In a
convention panel she said she basically likes to do them that way,
and the author/publisher usually doesn't gripe enough to make her
change them.

I was pleasantly surprised though to see her recent covers for Anne
McCaffrey's Harper Hall paperbacks, where Menolly was reasonably
dressed.  Guess Annie made her feelings on the matter clear :-).

Bob Halloran
UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh
home ph: (201)251-7514
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 03:07:01 GMT
From: sugar!peter@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter DaSilva)
Subject: Re: Some comments on *Devils*, by Asimov, Greenberg, & Waugh

There is a story I read once where the *demon* summoned the *human*
down to hell for some purpose for which a real, live human was
required. The human pulled a beautiful diabolical twist on the demon
at the end. Frederick Brown-ish type story. Any ideas?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 24 Jun 87 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #307
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 87 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #307
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jun 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 307

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 87 10:44:18 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Very minor correction(?)

I think red shirts were ship's services, rather than engineering
only. That would explain why security and engineering and
communications were the same color--in the movies, it was more like
6 or 7 colors on the insignia. Anybody got a movie-making guide to
check what the colors were?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 14:28:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!acf3!sxt2443@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

>Sometimes Scotty stands around, watching what they do, but they
>never get to command.
>
>Does that make any sense?

Yes it does, if you take the US Merchant Marine as an example.
Engineering officers are considered below decks officers and are not
in the chain of command (command requires a different license).

Brian Reynolds
(this is a friend's account send flames, etc. to:
c00.b-reynolds@nyu20.nyu.edu    )

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 20:55:03 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: The Big E just don't land!

After I was done flaming, I found some time to look it up.

So here is the quote from "The Making of Star Trek".

(all caps is Roddenberry, the rest is Whitfield)

"The series format hinted that the _Enterprise_ 'rarely lands upon a
planet'.

This was quickly changed to 'never'.

LAND A SHIP 14 STORIES TALL ON A PLANET SURFACE EVERY WEEK?  NOT
ONLY WOULD IT HAVE BLOWN OUR ENTIRE WEEKLY BUDGET BUT JUST
SUGGESTING IT WOULD HAVE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE RUINED MY REPUTATION IN
THE INDUSTRY FOREVER."

The quote's from page 43.  They go on to say, being forced to do
this made GR invent the transporter, so crew could get into the plot
more quickly.

Hope this clears everything up.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 19-Jun-1987 1524
From: vickrey%csc32.DEC@decwrl.dec.com

As somebody else noted, Sulu was not in "Journey to Babel", he was
in Georgia doing location shooting for "The Green Berets".

Scotty was not in "Journey to Babel".  Kirk ordered him to the
bridge after Spock and McCoy departed for sickbay, and then
countermanded that when the alien began its attack.  At the end,
when the crisis was over, he turned command over to Chekov.  James
Doohan did not appear in this episode at all.

I always thought the show where Uhura should have had command was
"Catspaw" - Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scott, and Sulu are all on the
planet, so they brought the semi-regular DeSalle up from
Engineering.

Susan Vickrey

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 17:17:19 GMT
From: Q4071@pucc.princeton.edu
Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>  I am amused at the horde of letters inspired by the fictional
>Enterprise "chain of command." Shall we make the following
>concessions to logic, honesty, and reality?

But that would spoil all the fun! :-)

Rationalizing continuity problems in a series (TV or print) is an
ancient and honorable practice.  I doubt (hope, rather) that no one
takes any of this at all seriously.

BTW, if we are going to be historical about things, a Captain of a
ship has no post, no duty and stands no watch.  His place is
wherever HE feels is most critical (even off-ship).  If it works, he
is rarely criticized.  If not, even the fact that he was doing the
"right" (i.e., by the book) thing may be no defense.  So your
comments about Kirk's place do not apply, except in the event of an
hypothetical Board of Inquiry.

GR and crew set themselves up for this sort of thing in their first-
season interviews, where they asserted that they had spent much time
making the command structure, missions and technology "reasonable",
and that they would avoid continuity problems.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 20:43:49 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>>Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the
>>Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that
>>yucky gold color).
>
>True, she wears a red uniform, but then so do Security personel,
>and they SURE aren't engineering! :-)

Red is Ship's Services, is it not?  This would seem to encompass
Communications, Engineering, *and* Security.

Now if they'd only outfit the cannon-fodder (``redshirts'') the way
they did in ST:TMP...

Brandon S. Allbery
aXcess Company
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210
{decvax,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 21:07:07 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Star Trek novels

ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET:
>I have to take exception with the statement that Star Trek novels
>are badly written.  True, there are some turkeys (Mutiny on the
>Enterprise springs to mind), but others like THE FINAL REFLECTION
>and THE WOUNDED SKY are classics in they're own right, not just as
>part of a classic series (no flames please).  The current novel,
>DREAMS OF THE RAVEN, is an excellent look at Dr. McCoy.

90% of X is crap, for any X (including ST novels).  Also, DREAMS OF
THE RAVEN was a good study of Dr. McCoy, but not good Star Trek.

The ST novels I like best are:

THE FINAL REFLECTION, John M. Ford (*the* definitive work on the
   Klingons)
THE WOUNDED SKY, Diane Duane
MY ENEMY, MY ALLY, Diane Duane (giving insights on the Romulan
   Empire)

However, not all of them succeed:

WEB OF THE ROMULANS, M. S. Murdoch (which gives a different view of
   the Romulan Empire; alas, the author falls into the trap of
   taking "Romulan" at face value -- the Romulan Empire is little
   different from the final stages of the old Roman Empire).

I don't have much hope for VISITORS FROM THE SKY, but I intend to
read it anyway.  If I ignored *all* ST novels because many are bad,
I'd never have gotten to read THE FINAL REFLECTION.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 04:19:05 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L.
From: Carlock)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

In reply to the speculation about why Lt. Uhura was never given the
con in the original ST series --

According to David Gerrold in "The World of Star Trek" (either that
or TMOST), There was at least one script in which Uhura was to have
assumed the con, but the studio heads of the day objected to the
idea of a woman in charge of the Enterprise.  The script was
changed, no doubt with reluctance.

(However, Uhura DID take the con in at least one of the animated
episodes, the one where there are these beautiful women all alone on
this planet, see, and they send out these transmissions (C-4's,
actually **) that turn the wills of men to mush, so she, as the
highest-ranking female officer, takes the con.  That's still kind of
a cop-out reason to have a woman in command, but at least it's a
start.)

Oh no . . . I didn't give a ST Universe reason for her not getting
the con . . .  I can feel the flames coming . . .
AAAAAAAAIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

But seriously, there have already been so many good STU reasons
posted, I didn't feel that I could add to them.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 87 23:45:17 GMT
From: darrow@merlin.unm.edu (Matthew Harmsen-U)
Subject: Enterprise landing gear

I was shocked when I noticed it, but the new Enterprise (from the
movies) does have landing gear on the primary (saucer-shaped) hull
for the use in landing in the event of a catastrophe requiring the
disposal of the secondary hull.  This is from the break-down poster
of the Enterprise that came out shortly after the first movie.  The
blueprints for the old Enterprise do not mention them, so I must
assume that it doesn't have them.

Darrow

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 07:42:04 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!nosc!humu!uhccux!todd@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Star Trek -- Ensigns and Crewmen

Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>man.  Many episodes contains Chiefs and crewmen, while others
>appear to contain nothing but officers.  Worse, many contain no
>evidence of anyone who isn't a lieutenant except for Kirk, Spock,
>McCoy, Scotty and Chekov.

I seem to recall that Roddenberry once wrote that "since all
Enterprise crewmen are 'astronauts', all of them must be officers."

Not sure where I read it.  Might have been in "The Making of Star
Trek" published in the late 60s or early 70s...todd

Todd Ogasawara
U. of Hawaii Center for Teaching Excellence
UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,dcdwest}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!todd
ARPA: uhccux!todd@nosc.MIL
INTERNET: todd@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 13:39:33 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Visit #2

mcdermot@bgsuvax.UUCP (mark mcdermott) writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>> They were shooting on the planet set they day I was there.
>> Present were Number One, Troi, Yar, LaForge and Data.
>>
>> Number One has exactly the same hairstyle as the young (TV) James
>> T. Kirk.  This may be coincidence, or maybe Kirk's his hero?
>
>Yes, but is he wearing the classic pointed sideburns everyone wore
>in the series?  :')

As a matter of fact, yes.  That's the first thing I noticed, then I
noticed it was the same haircut.  Gene must think pointed sideburns
are the one thing that didn't change in the Federation in 78 years.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 87 20:04:04 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!dicome!plate@RUTGERS.EDU (Douglas B. Plate)
Subject: Re: The Big E just don't land!

> Aha, but the Enterprise is capable of landing on a planet.  It
> would take a pretty nasty storm to make that difficult, wouldn't
> it?

I just had to comment on this since I know the answer!!  Yes, the
Enterprise could land on a planet (I,ll put my smiley face in right
here, so that the die-hards don't letter-bomb me before they finish
reading!  :-) but the planet had to be equipped with this special
"stand" that had a base with a curved pedestal coming out of it.
The top of the pedestal fit into a slot on the the bottom of the
Enterprise.  How do I know this?  I HAD THE MODEL KIT WHEN I WAS 10
YEARS OLD!!

Doug Plate

OH, and the green things on the top (bridge) and bottom of the
saucer lit up too.  Two AA batteries not included.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 21:01:59 GMT
From: harvard!talcott!encore!paradis@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Paradis)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
>Rumors from the con circuit are that the transwarp experiment
>failed and the new warp system IS NOT transwarp.  Darned if I know
>what it is, though.

Uh, transwarp "EXPERIMENT"??  If Transwarp was an experiment, then
why did Starfleet go to the trouble and expense of building it into
their biggest ship ever?  You'd think they'd try it out in less
expensive circumstances first!  Or is it one of those things that
works fine in small engines but doesn't scale up too well?

Jim Paradis
Encore Computer Corp.
257 Cedar Hill St.
Marlboro MA 01752
(617) 460-0500
{linus|necntc|ihnp4|decvax|talcott}!encore!paradis

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 19:24:53 GMT
From: seismo!gould!novavax!usfvax2!chips@RUTGERS.EDU (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

davidg@pnet02.UUCP writes:
>bryan@druhi.ATT.COM (BryanJT) writes:
>>Notice, too, that Uhura wears red, which seems to be the
>>Engineering color, not Science (Science is blue, Command is that
>>yucky gold color).
>
>True, she wears a red uniform, but then so do Security personel,
>and they SURE aren't engineering! :-)

Red is the "Support" color.  It seems that "Support" is anything
that isn't Command or Science.

Chip Salzenberg
A.T. Engineering, Tampa, FL
{any backbone}!uunet!ateng!chip
chips@usfvax2.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 15:14:47 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>Kirk's job should have been to stay on his ship, receive reports,
>and make dispassionate decisions. Similarly with the other senior
>personnel, with the possible exception of Spock.
>  It gets even more ridiculous with the CO, the Exec, AND the 3rd
>in command (Kirk/Spock/Sulu) beaming down on some occasions.

Is Sulu really the 3rd in command?

>  Chalk this down to what plays on TV, pure and simple. Let's not
>waste our typing time trying to justify the illogical.

But often it is great fun trying to explain away seeming
inconsistencies without falling back on "the author made a mistake".
People have been doing it for years with the Sherlock Holmes
stories. In fact, the main rule of the "game" is precisely that you
have to assume that the author did not make a mistake.

Having said that, I unfortunately have to agree that no reasonable
explanation exists for the behaviour of the Enterprise command
staff.  I had a few ideas years ago (before the movies), but they've
been shot down by now.

>That Uhura didn't conn the ship for two simple reasons: race and
>sex.

Also a communication officer would be outside the line of command,
surely? Just as engineering officers are...

>That considering the proper role and duties of an executive
>officer, Spock would have never done? Yes, yes, I know, Spock is
>incredibly able, smart, the perfect officer, and so on and so on.
>That hardly excuses the logical fact that when the CO is unable to
>conn the ship, for whatever reason, the exec's place is ON THE
>BRIDGE. Period. Since science officers beam down to planets and
>suchlike...however able, Spock lacks the capacity for creating a
>duplicate of himself to be two places at once.

I have a set of blue-prints of the Enterprise with a list of crew
positions. Not only are there _both_ an Executive Officer and a
Sience Officer mentioned, but the rank of the chief navigation and
communication officers are given as lieutenant-commanders (logical
with a full captain for CO and commanders for excecutive, sience and
engineering officers).

Now, my theory is that just prior to the first ST episode, a meteor
struck the brigde while the Exec, the CNO and the CCO was on it.
Unable to get replacements, Kirk had Spock assume the duties of the
Exec and allowed Sulu and Uhura to carry on as department heads.

Of course, this still does not explain Kirk's gallavanting about...

>  The Star Trek series was designed as entertainment, not as an
>accurate depiction or extrapolation of military practices or
>protocol, either now or in the forseeable future.

Another possibility is that there _are_ an Exec, a CNO and a CCO
aboard the Enterprise. Why we never see them? Ahh, their battle
station is on the auxillary brigde, of course! So whenever Kirk,
Spock, Sulu and the rest are down on a planet, the fate of the
Enterprise rests securely in the capable hands (tentacles?) of Mr.
Inconnu, the 1st Officer of the Enterprise! Only, he's so shy, you
see, so they couldn't get permission to use him in the series...

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Jun 87 0823-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #308
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jun 87 0823-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #308
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 308

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brin (3 msgs) & Sturgeon &
                         Verne (2 msgs) & Vernor Vinge &
                         Wells & Zelazny & Cover Art (2 msgs) &
                         Demons (2 msgs) & Horror (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1987  11:43 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: uplift war

   I just finished read the _Uplift War_ and noticed a few things
which I haven't yet seen mentioned: what is this bit about humanity
being forbidden to uplift other races?  In both _Startide Rising_
and _Sundiver_ mention is made of uplifting dogs and gorillas; in
fact, in _Sundiver_ it says something like, "And when Culla learned
that Jacob had been involved in the uplift of chimps and dolphins,
and more recently dogs and gorillas..."  Next question: how long do
these people live?  _Uplift War_ reveals that the events in
_Sundiver_ took place 200 years before SR and UW, yet both Tom Orley
and Gillian Baskin in SR knew Jacob Demwa from Sundiver.  On one
hand, this seems to imply that people live a very long time, but on
the other hand, plenty of references also exist to indicate that
they don't.  Maybe Jacob spent a 100+ years in D-level hyperspace...

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 06:56:18 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;608C)
Subject: Re: uplift war

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>

>   I just finished read the _Uplift War_ and noticed a few things
>which I haven't yet seen mentioned: what is this bit about humanity
>being forbidden to uplift other races?  In both _Startide Rising_
>and _Sundiver_ mention is made of uplifting dogs and gorillas; in
>fact, in _Sundiver_ it says something like, "And when Culla learned
>that Jacob had been involved in the uplift of chimps and dolphins,
>and more recently dogs and gorillas..."

I noticed this discrepancy, but so what?  There are many other minor
problems with these books.  I'll detail them if you want, but they
don't seem to detract too much from the main story.

>Next question: how long do these people live?  _Uplift War_ reveals
>that the events in _Sundiver_ took place 200 years before SR and
>UW, yet both Tom Orley and Gillian Baskin in SR knew Jacob Demwa
>from Sundiver.  On one hand, this seems to imply that people live a
>very long time, but on the other hand, plenty of references also
>exist to indicate that they don't.  Maybe Jacob spent a 100+ years
>in D-level hyperspace...

You might remember the woman (sorry I can't remember her name) in
Sundiver who had been on a interplanetary voyage was born some 90
Earth years before but had a physical age of about 25.  Evidently,
the early Earth ships allowed a lot of time dilation.  I attributed
this to the fact that some forms of FTL travel required the ship to
go to nearly the speed of light to work.  However that was before
D-level hyperspace was mentioned.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 23:15:31 GMT
From: harvard!linus!dartvax!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek J. LeLash)
Subject: Brin, Donaldson, & language

I must confess that I'm surprised to see people flaming Brin for
using strange language to excess in "The Uplift War." The erudite
passage which has been quoted on the net (Athaclena's perceptions of
the humans at an Uplift ceremony) did strike me as being needlessly
complicated, but it stood out considerably from most of the rest of
the book. It's almost as if Brin revised the manuscript in only a
few places to include rare/newly coined words.  This contrasts with
Donaldson, for whom using unusual words seems to be reflexive. I
feel that they add something to the story, but maybe I'm biased
since I'd heard many of them before. One that took me a long time to
find was 'vlei.'  Try it yourself (or better yet, use it in your
next Scrabble game :-)

Derek LeLash
{wherever}!dartvax!derek
derek@dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 22:23:10 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: In praise of Ted Sturgeon

From: "Art Evans" <Evans@TL-20B.ARPA>
>Let's hear more about Ted Sturgeon.  In particular, does anyone
>know of anything else in prnt?

  I have Case And The Dreamer, Star Shine, More Than Human, and The
Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon in my library.  It's been a long time
since I read them, but More Than Human is one of the most memorable
books I've ever read.  I don't know if any of these are still in
print, but it wouldn't suprise me to see them reprinted.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 15:58:06 GMT
From: slb@drutx.att.com (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Jules Verne (really a flame)

>By the way, any Jules Verne fans out there?  I've read a lot of his
>works, but have a hard time finding any of his less popular novels
>still in print.  Suggestions on where to find any will be
>appreciated.

And when you do find his works, they are often abridged.  Gack!
Does anyone else hate this as much as I do?  Why anyone doesn't want
to read the work as the author wrote it is beyond me.  And you often
don't know it's abridged until you get it home and start reading the
small print on the publishing info page.  Jules Verne books are ones
that you should always check this page on.

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 87 15:43:58 GMT
From: gatech!amd!tc@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Crawford)
Subject: Re: Jules Verne (really a flame)

slb@drutx.ATT.COM (Sue Brezden) writes:
>>By the way, any Jules Verne fans out there?  I've read a lot of
>>his works,
>And when you do find his works, they are often abridged.  Gack!

"Some of Verne's best books are crudely abridged in English.  Others
are simply not yet available in our language.  What is available is
often badly translated, full of literary and technical errors that
are not Verne's.

"Passages omitted from these "standard translations" are ofter
Verne's most heavily political, philosophical, and scientific
passages.  They include some of Verne's finest literary efforts,
too.  These cuts-often subtracting 30 percent to 40 percent of
Verne's text from the English editions-naturally weaken his story
line, his characterization, his humor, and the integrity of his
ideas."

From The_Annotated_Jules_Verne, Walter James Miller.  The
translation he gives is very different from the Mercier/Roth
translation.  Get it if you can.  You'll be glad you did.

Tom Crawford

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 02:08:36 GMT
From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!nrc-ut!wicat!caeco!byuadam!iconsys!mcd@RUTG
From: ERS.EDU (Mark Dakins)
Subject: Re: Fictional Computers

I am surprised no one has mentioned _True Names_ by Vernor Vinge.  I
think that it is one of the better written "computer science
fiction" stories in addition to having the most realistic computers
and technology.  It has some of the flavor of a good fantasy story
while having a solid technical basis for its "magic". I highly
recommend it to anyone with interests in both computers and science
fiction.

I wish someone would make a movie of this one.

Mark Dakins

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 18:30:36 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tims@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Sullivan)
Subject: H. G. Wells

Reply to article posted by Ami Silberman.

Well, well (very weak pun intended), there does appear to be someone
else in this net who enjoys reading Wells!  I've been an avid reader
of nearly any of his works that can still be found in print, which
usually means digging around in the old Dewey Decimal stacks at our
county library here in Reno.  Every once in a while a local
bookstore will get a few copies of his short story collections on
the "bargain table" -- worth keeping your eyes open for.

Any comments on the following stories/novels?

   1. Men Like Gods
   2. Tono Bungay
   3. The Truth About Pyecroft
   4. The New Accellerator

By the way, any Jules Verne fans out there?  I've read a lot of his
works, but have a hard time finding any of his less popular novels
still in print.  Suggestions on where to find any will be
appreciated.

Tim Sullivan
Reno, NV

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 18:39:57 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Blood of Amber questions (possible SPOILERS)

I finally read the latest Amber book (in paperback!) and would have
to say that I liked it better than the Trumps of Doom.  Though I
thought that the Ghostwheel which was quite an excellent
thing-in-itself should have been mentioned or encountered more often
than it was.  Possibly, this explains why the ending was so weird;
ending quite abruptly and making references to what sounded like
Alice in Wonderland?  Maybe the Ghostwheel was responsible for
creating that final spinning trump card and will have a larger part
in the next novel.  Lots of loose ends to be tied up.

The paperback said that the next Amber novel would be out in July
1987!  I don't think I'll wait for this one to come out in
paperback!

rj pietkivitch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jun 87 13:24:52 PDT
From: linda@MATH.UCLA.EDU
Subject: blacks on sf covers

   I went to a panel on cover art at the Atlanta Worldcon, and this
is what I learned :
   A lot of books are sold through distributors instead of directly
to bookstores. Apparently, some of the southern US distributors will
resist carrying a book with a black on the cover. This would badly
hurt the availability of the book in that region.

   In some ways I thought this was encouraging. It's not that
'people won't buy a book with a black on the cover' but that a
relatively few people will block the distribution.

Linda Wald
linda@math.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 02:26:38 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!jack!sco!ericg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Griswold)
Subject: Re: Cover Screw-Ups

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do?  I
>know not all cover artists CAN get access to manuscripts and
>authors' input as people like Whelan do, but I don't like Rowena's
>work on it's OWN.

I've always been rather fascinated by the garishness of it.  She
paints in technicolor and presents things in a world of such
childish simplicity, it makes it *fun* to look at.  Yea she's kind
of excessive with the T&A, but it is rare to find someone in
advertising (she *IS* in the ad biz) who isn't.

Think of it as a tasteful alternative to a Calvin Klein "Obsession"
ad :-)

Eric Griswold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 15:19:17 edt
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #306
From: markl@PTT.LCS.MIT.EDU

>From: sugar!peter@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter DaSilva)
>There is a story I read once where the *demon* summoned the *human*
>down to hell for some purpose for which a real, live human was
>required. The human pulled a beautiful diabolical twist on the
>demon at the end. Frederick Brown-ish type story. Any ideas?

Ug. [page-fault...page-fault...page-fault].  The human is an
astronomer, right?  And the devil needs him to get some sort if
talisman in return for which the devil will grant a favor to the man
at the time of his death?  I think it is in a Poul Anderson
anthology called "Fantasy", but the story title escapes me (although
Larry Niven's name keeps popping into my head too.  I hate it when I
can't get at my library to confirm things...).

markl
Internet: markl@ptt.lcs.mit.edu
MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
Distributed Systems Group

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 15:35:33 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: story request (was Re: Some comments...)

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter DaSilva) writes:
>There is a story I read once where the *demon* summoned the *human*
>down to hell for some purpose for which a real, live human was
>required. The human pulled a beautiful diabolical twist on the
>demon at the end. Frederick Brown-ish type story. Any ideas?

Didn't Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser get into that sort of trouble in
one of their adventures?  That story line sure rings a bell.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
{whatever}!amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 17:12:31 GMT
From: harvard!talcott!encore!diana@RUTGERS.EDU (Diana Carroll)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>I suppose this is all a matter of taste, but I'd like someone to
>explain what they like about horror.

Personally, I read horror to scare myself.  I agree that horror
tends to leave someone who is used to SF a little unsatisfied,
because nothing is ever explained.  That's why I usually read SF.
But when I do read horror, I don't care the why's, I don't want to
know the hows.  I want a book that appeals to that inner nature,
left of from prehistoric days, of fear of the unknown, and terror of
anything larger than you...or stronger.  Ther more explanation of a
phenomenon, the less intimidating it is.  Ignorance is the mother of
fear, and that's important when you're trying to terrify yourself.

Now, you ask, why on earth would anyone want to scare themselves
silly?  I'm not sure.  All I know is it is exhilarating to feel your
blood pound like that, and look behind you at every noise, and
wonder "Is this just a book, or...".  Science fiction can make you
think, and make you feel in an intellectual way.  But it can never
get under your skin and deep into your emotions and make you LIVE IT
the way horror can.  You feel more involved because that's YOU
running from that horrible green slimy monster, not a character in a
book.

My favorite horror is where the antagonist is some pure,
unadulterated evil, with no explanation, no relent.  My favorites
are _Ghost_Story_ by Peter Straub, and _The_Shining_ and
_Salem's_Lot_ by Stephen King.  (For those who have not read them,
but seen the movies -- no relation.)

Well, that's my reason anyway.  I'd be curious to know anyone elses.

Diana Carroll

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 20:39:12 GMT
From: uwvax!uwmacc!oyster@RUTGERS.EDU (Vicarious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Horror (was "Lovecraft")

diana@encore.UUCP (Diana Carroll) writes:
>Personally, I read horror to scare myself.  I agree that horror
>tends to leave someone who is used to SF a little unsatisfied,
>because nothing is ever explained.  That's why I usually read SF.
>But when I do read horror, I don't care the why's, I don't want to
>know the hows.  I want a book that appeals to that inner nature,
>left of from prehistoric days, of fear of the unknown, and terror
>of anything larger than you...or stronger.  Ther more explanation
>of a phenomenon, the less intimidating it is.  Ignorance is the
>mother of fear, and that's important when you're trying to terrify
>yourself.

   I think that's true for myself, too.  I read mostly science
fiction and fantasy, but need a good long horror story (or mystery,
or historical fiction, or technical manual* ) every few weeks to add
a bit of spice to my reading.  For this purpose, I've been delving
into, um, whatisname, the guy who does the one-word title novels,
like _Phantoms_ and _Whispers_.  Anyway, he has the tendency to
explain what "It" is somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 through the book.
It *really* takes the fun out of it, and the reading experience
becomes one of merely finding out how the people involved deal with
the problem (which of course is nowhere *near* as fun as being
scared spitless).  King is usually better at leaving us up in the
air, though his style tends to bog down at times.
   Anyway, I've just finished Norman Mailer's first novel, and have
_The Dead Zone_ lined up for after books two and three of the
Fionavar (sp?)  Tapestry books.  I don't know how I've managed so
long without reading that one (_The Dead Zone_, that is).  I expect
it to satisfy my cravings for terror, however.  --

Joel Plutchak
uucp: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster
ARPA: oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu
BITNET: plutchak@wiscmacc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Jun 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #309
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jun 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #309
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Jun 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 309

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Doctor Who (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 19:43:55 GMT
From: alan@cae780.tek.com (Alan M. Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)

nyssa@terminus.UUCP (The Railyard) writes:
>>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if
>>whatever follows will be near her equal.
>Sarah Jane Smith may be the worst companion in terms of
>consistency.  She was supposed to be a feminist, and failed
>miserably there.  She was supposed to be a stronger character, yet
>was a screamer I am very disappointed in her character for that.

It's partly because of her inconsistency that made Sarah Jane the
most interesting companion.  In real life, people are inconsistent.
There are many women and men who try to be strong in character, but
slip up a bit.  If we knew she would always bash the alien on the
head, then when the alien appeared, we would think "Sarah Jane will
just bash it on the head."  But we don't know what she will do.  She
doesn't know what she might do, until something happens.  She is
intelligent and witty. And she certainly shows compassion for
others, whether it be human (the slow learner from "Kingdom of the
Spiders" (?)) or alien (the ambassador from Alpha Centauri in
"Monster of Paladon" (?)).

I guess if you like time lords, Romana may be your favorite.  For
savages, no companion beats Leela.  Someone from Traken may like
Nyssa.  But I prefer modern Earth women, and, though Jo is okay,
Sarah Jane is the type I would take along if I were a time lord and
I had a TARDIS.

I wonder who Sgt. Benton prefers?

Alan Steinberg
tektronix!cae780!alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Jun 87 09:08:53-PDT
From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@stripe.sri.com>
Subject: DR. WHO VIDEO RELEASES FOR JULY 1987

Playhouse Video/CBS-FOX is releasing three Tom Baker Dr. Who
episodes in July.  According to the press release (don`t flame me
for accuracy) the episodes are: _The_ _Brain_of_Morbius_ with
Elisabeth Sladen (1984), _The_Robots_of_Death_ with Louise Jameson
(1986), and _Pyramids_of_Mars_ again with Elisabeth Sladen (l985).
If the dates are wrong send your complaints to CBS/FOX.  Also, check
with K-Mart 'coz you might save a buck or two if you're planning on
buying.

Walter Chapman
Chapman@STRIPE.SRI.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 1987  01:42 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@icse.uci.edu>
Subject: Dr. Who queries

   As I recall, they mentioned in one episode that there are about
40 stories to the TARDIS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 9:49:24 cdt
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who -- Gallifreyan Social Structure

Maybe some of the Who experts out there can enlighten me on this
area: I've always wondered about Gallifrey's social structure -- at
first, it seemed that all Gallifreyans were Time Lords, but, later,
when we saw more episodes set on that planet, it appeared that there
were a lot of menial Gallifreyans who worked under the orders of the
Council and were inferior to the Time Lords.

Are Council members selected from amongst the Time Lords (so that
there would be a class of non-council-member Time Lords) or is it
the same thing to be a Time Lord and a Council member (excepting of
course special cases like the Doctor)? (That is, that to be a Time
Lord automatically means you belong to the Council?)

Has this ever been made clear or described in detail in some of the
Dr. Who reference material (which I haven't seen)?

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
(on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA )

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 11:13:28 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Dr. Who: comments on comments (on ...)

>>   3.  Why are there no female timelords?
> There are [female time lords], they just don't appear very often.
> In the 'Key to Time' series (a few years on from the ones you are
> watching now) the Doctor is joined by a female Time Lord who
> remains for two further seasons.

>dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>>I can only claim temporary memory bank failure for forgetting
>>about Romana.  She is indeed the first female Timelord I remember
>>seeing.
>
>Wasn't there a female time lord in "The Invasion of Time?" I am
>referring to the lady working in the security center whom Leela
>meets. I am pretty certain she was said to be a time lord.
>
>Romanadvoradnalunda would not appreciate that question.  Neither
>would Chancellor Flavia.

I'm not so sure she was said to be a Time Lord, but I would assume
that she was on the basis of the fact that her station seemed to
involve a fair ammount of responsibility (at least she was protected
well).  On the other hand, her policy was mindless: to ignore
anything.  And she considered her job a tedious one.  Were the
Citidel guards Time Lords (not counting the time Colin Baker played
a guard)?  I think they were only Gallifreans since I doubt anyone
would go through the Time Lord Academy just to learn how to shoot a
taser.

There was also one renegade female Time Lord, although her title
slips me at the moment.  She allied with The Master once or twice.
It might have been The Rani, but I'm not sure.

>Possibly the best one, though, is "Pyramids of Mars".

I liked it too.  Among other things, it contains a really weird
blooper.  When The Bad Guy stands up from his throne, there is a
human hand on the chair, draped over from the other side.  It
appears as if TBG was sitting on the hand.  Within a fraction of a
second, that hand is pulled out of sight.  Presumably someone was
doing a last-minute adjustment to TBG's costume and didn't manage to
get his hand out of the way before the TBG stood up.  It looks
hilarious, like Adams Family's Thing in outer space!

>Fortunately, Dr. Who does not require special effects skill for its
>results.  The most enjoyable parts, I always feel, are the lines:
>mostly the Doctor's, but often his companions' too.
>
>>They've gotta do something about that costume designer, though.
>>He or she seems to create the gaudiest, goofiest outfits, I've ever
>>seen. ...
>Excuse me?  Are we watching the same series?  Of exactly what
>costumes in Dr. Who are you thinking?  I think his outfits are
>great, Sarah's are usually very good, and the costuming in general
>for episodes set in the past is excellent (for those set in the
>future, often a bit plastic and artificial, it's true). ...

The original reason costumes were so bad was that they were on a
small budget, and they had to make new stuff for all of the scenes
they needed.  I agree with the comment that Dr. Who's plots stand
without needing grand costuming, but for far more extreme reasons.
Dr. Who is very much a comedy, and the cheap BBC special-effects
have become a part of that humour.  They will occasionally spend
more nowadays, and they don't grudge The Doctor and regulars decent
costumes, but anything that will be used once is done cheaply and,
now that it is a running joke, probably even more bizzarely than
necessary.  I think the amazing things they find to glue on space
suits and alien costumes are hilarious! Many fans agree with this
interpretation: several years ago Monstercon (alas, I missed it) had
a special category in it's costume contest called "BBC costume."
The only requirement was that the entire cost of the costume could
be no more than $5.  I heard that people did fantastic things with
coathangers tin foil and plastic wrap: most costumes were
constructed right AT the convention.  One costume was a sheet
splotched with reddish spray paint: the person draped it over him
and crawled out onto the stage looking almost exactly like the
Routon(?) in the lighthouse (episode name forgotten).  My favorite
scene was when a ship did a close hyperbolic orbit past an asteroid:
They had a sheet of glass (or more likely plastic or even plastic
wrap) for a window with a cylindrical (diameter about 6feet)
moonscape just the other side of it.  This was spun to simulate
passing close to the planet's surface.  It looked just like the
running scenes of cheap cartoons: the background repeated itself
every half second or so.

Naturally the historic costumes and sets are better.  The BBC people
responsible for Dr. Who don't build those, they just dip into their
extensive warehouses for existing props whose rentals cost them less
than hacking up something corny.

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>>nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes:
>>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if
>>whatever follows will be near her equal.  (Although Harry did come
>>>>>close...)
>I will admit that she is not my least favorite, there are may
>worse.  I just don't think she holds a candle to Leela, Jo Grant,
>Harry Sullivan, Brigadier Alastair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, and
>others.

Harry Sullivan???~?????

To quote The Doctor, "Harry Sullivan is an Idiot!"
To (loosely) quote Sarah, "[Harry Sullivan] is a Twit!"

In general I refer to Sarah and Harry as The Dip and The Twit,
respectively.  I love them as scapegoats of humourous ridicule, but
would never consider them among the best companions on that basis.

By the way, none of the UNIT people are generally considered
companions, any more than The Master is.  They might have been
regulars on the show during the Pertwee reign, and show up on
occasion after that, but they were NOT companions.  Check the Dr.
Who Programme Guide (I haven't, but I'm confident).  I know that the
Programme Guide might not be considered "Official", but it's as good
as anything else printed by BBC.  For that matter John Nathan Turner
(the Producer), at Timecon, was asked how they checked scripts for
consistnecy with earlier shows.  He said that they had a small room
stacked to the ceiling with old scripts which they never used.  They
used the Programme Guide!

>>Could Sarah Jane fire a bow or use a Janus Thorn without killing
>>herself?  I doubt it.  Does that detract even further from her
>>character?  No, because it wasn't part of it.
>
>AHEM!  I would bring your attention to the episode "Pyramids of
>MArs".  Sarah is an excellent shot with a rifle.

Right.  A rifle is a 20th century weapon, so it is not entirely
unbelievable that The Dip, as a feminist, might have had occasion to
learn to use one.  I would be far more suprised if she were
proficient with a bow or daggar.  The concept of being able to use a
weapon was not the question, it was one of being able to use
something which was completely outside one's background experience.
Although Leela DID use guns on occasion, the basic operating
instructions are simple enough and it was never implied that she was
a particularly good shot.  She did LIKE guns, naturally, but that's
another issue.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 11:00 EST
From: <HAXT2860%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: HISTORY OF DR. WHO

   The following is a history of the Dr. Who episodes. Credits for
this synopsis should go to the author(who is listed). I take blame
for nothing...but, why shouldn't I. I didn't do anything but post
it.

                       HISTORY OF DOCTOR WHO

In the constellation of Kasterborus, at galactic coordinates
ten-zero-eleven-zero-zero by zero-two from galactic zero center lies
Gallifrey - The Planet of the Time-Lords.  On Gallifrey lives an
immensely intelligent and highly civilized race.  Gallifreyans
have an unique endowment - the ability to regenerate their bodies,
to prevent premature death.  At such times they take on a completely
new physical appearance.  Gallifreyans may regenerate as many as
twelve times in one lifetime. The Master is the only Time Lord that
has regenerated more than 12 times.

Even more important than this ability however, are the Gallifreyans'
many extraordinary discoveries.  They have opened the doors to the
time barrier and unlocked the secret of travel through the fifth
dimension.  It is upon that secret that the tradition of the
Time-Lords has been founded.

The Time-Lords monitor all the happenings and events that occur in
time and space.  They train at their respective academies depending
on their chapters of which there are three: the Arcalians, the
Patrexes, and the Prydonians.

Legends speak of Omega, a great and gifted time engineer, who
created the super-nova explosion which in time became the Crab
Nebula.  This gave the Gallifreyans the power they needed to develop
the time travel capsules called TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimensions
In Space).

Rassilon, the original leader of the Time-Lords, captured a black
hole which provided the Time-Lords with a constant, stable power
source to perfect their researches.  It was Rassilon who created the
symbols of power held by the president of the High Council: The
Matrix, a link to the Amplified Panatropic Complex (APC net), the
computer which contains the memories of all the Time-Lords who ever
lived; The Sash which protects the wearer from the energies of the
black hole; The Rod and Great Key which are used in harnessing the
energies of the black hole.

The early Time-Lords used their powers to try to help the people of
the planet Minyos develop their civilization; despite these efforts,
though, the Minyans destroyed each other in nuclear wars.  Only then
did the Time-Lords realize the potential harm of their discoveries.
They instituted laws governing time travel, limiting themselves to
the role of observers.  They vowed only to interfere in the affairs
of other cultures in the most extreme cases of injustice.

Throughout Time-Lord history there have been those who have left
Gallifrey to pursue their own ideas and ambitions.  Among these
'Renegade' Time-Lords are names such as K'Anpo, who lived on Earth
as a Tibetan monk, and Drax, the builder of Mentalis, a giant
computer on the planet Zeos.

By far the most dangerous is the Master, an evil and avaricious
Time-Lord whose lust for power has allied him to some of the most
ruthless elements in the universe.  A deadly hypnotist, his
trademark is murder and his favorite weapon a gun which compresses
his victims' atoms, leaving doll size corpses.

Most extraordinary of all the Time-Lords is the Doctor.  Bored with
the laws of non-intervention, he rejected the teachings and
principles of his tutor, Cardinal Borusa, and those of the academy,
and left Gallifrey with his granddaughter in a stolen (borrowed)
TARDIS to explore!

War Chief, too, rejected the Time Lords principles, and sought to
build an invincible army to conquer the galaxy.  (The Doctor stopped
him only to be placed on trial by the Time Lords and sentenced to be
Earth bound with a memory block on his knowledge of
Dematerilization).

The Most powerful Time Lord is Salyavin, who was thought to be
imprisoned on Shada, the secret Time Lord prison planet.  Salyavin
held the power to imprint his mind on any sentient being, thereby
gaining control of said being.  Salyavin, however, was hiding,
incognito, on the planet Earth.  Disguised as Professor Chronotis,
he concealed the book of the Ancient Law of Gallifrey, until he gave
it to the Doctor to be returned to the Time Lords.

Morbius was once a high ranking Time Lord, but became a cosmic
villain.  This Time Lord renegade was thought to be executed by the
time lords, but his living brain was somehow stolen and a new body
was being prepared for Morbuis' regeneration.  (Again, the Doctor
intervened and ended Morbius for good).

The Time Lords who stayed on Gallifrey to continue their culture
were also tempted by over zealous glory.  Borusa, who taught the
principles of nonintervention with ferverent belief, went on to
become castellan, then president, but sought to gain the complete
power of Rassilon just so he could continue forever to guide his
people. His misguided intentions led him to be imprisoned with other
deluded Time Lords on the tomb of Rassilon.

(Information about Borusa, Morbius, War Chief, and Salyavin were
added by Jim Thomas of RSVP.  Original author is unknown.  Last
update was March 17, 1985.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 30 Jun 87 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #310
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Jun 87 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #310
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Jun 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 310

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - First SF (8 msgs) &
                                Alien Life (2 msgs) & 
                                SFL T-Shirts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 13:36:58 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: First SF (Some questions answered)

[Old business]

From:   seismo!utai!hub.toronto.edu!ping@RUTGERS.EDU
> The first SF books that I read were two novels by the British
> author Patrick Moore about a base built on the moon jointly by the
> Americans and the Russians.  One was called "Caverns of the Moon",
> and I don't remember the name of the other one....

Well, Moore wrote roughly 20 books. CAVERNS OF THE MOON was the last
of a four-book series about Robin North, the others being WANDERER
IN SPACE, CRATER OF FEAR, and INVADER FROM SPACE.

From:   sci!daver       (David Rickel)
> Anybody remember a series of stories about a moonman named Matt
> Mooney?

I suspect you're thinking of the series by Jerome Beatty about
Matthew Looney. There are also a couple of books about Matthew's
sister Maria.

From:   hpfcrj!bayes    (Scott Bayes)
> I think my "hooker" was _Sons of the Ocean Deep_ (? title), by,
> by, by...  (How embarrassing, I've forgotten).

Bryce Walton. One of the famed Winston juveniles.  (And it was
...DEEPS.)

From:   cc5.bbn.com!levin
> ...I remember something called "Rocket Jockey"
> ...(no idea who wrote it).

Lester del Rey, under the pseudonym Philip St. John.  Another of the
famed Winston juveniles.

> Then going WAY back, I remember from the elementary level shelves
> in the Logan Utah public library something called "Little Ball
> from Mars" ... really no idea who wrote that!

You stumped me. I can't find a reference for any book with that
title.

From:   nancy!rjd       (Rob DeMillo)
> The first SF that I can remember reading was a book that I ordered
> from a school book drive called "The Time Tunnel," and was
> authored by someone that I should know - unfortunately I have
> forgotten his name. It was your typical time travel story (of
> course I didn't know that then) about a pair of scientists who
> create a time machine and go back to the prehistoric past to see
> all sorts of wonderful things.  (Dinosaurs, old ferns, primitive
> tribes, etc..) This was in about third grade...and the author had
> written the book for little kids... (If anyone can help me out
> with the author's name, I'd appreciate it...it's gonna drive me
> crazy now.)

The only novels I know of by that title are by Murray Leinster.  He
wrote TIME TUNNEL (no "the") in 1964 and it had nothing at all to do
with the tv show, which came two years later (unless the show was
inspired by this book, but I've never seen mention that it was). In
1967, Leinster wrote another book called THE TIME TUNNEL, which was
based on the tv show (he also wrote a second book based on the show:
TIMESLIP!). However, neither book matches the description you give.
The only time travel book for young kids that I've ever read was THE
ANYTIME RINGS by Robert Faraday, though I know of two books by
"Donald Keith" (actually Donald and Keith Monroe), entitled MUTINY
IN THE TIME MACHINE and TIME MACHINE TO THE RESCUE, that might fit
your bill.

From:   Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
> ...I also remember 2 short SF stories in our elemetary school
> Reader - 'The Fun They Had',by Clarke, and a story taken from the
> Martian Chronicles about a family who moves to mars (I can't
> remember the name)....

"The Million Year Picnic", I'd guess. And "The Fun They Had" is by
Asimov, not Clarke.

From:   umd5!brooksj    (Joanne Brooks)
> I have a couple questions for all you netters; maybe someone can
> help me.  First: Who were the authors (I know there are two) of
> the 'StarChild Trilogy'? I remember reading it my freshman year of
> high school, and haven't been able to find it since in any book
> store around here -- I want to try to order it thru an
> out-of-print book shop, if I can.

Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson. They've appeared as three
paperbacks that shouldn't be hard to find in a good used book store.

From:   dartvax!holly   (Ian Cabell)

> On a different track, I saw a book mentioned that I would like to
> find again. The book contained something about Tyco Brahe and a
> planet with mushrooms, or something.  Could someone find the
> author/title for me?

This is one of those questions that seems to come up in this
newsgroup at least once a year. The Mushroom Planet series is by
Eleanor Cameron, and is about Tycho Bass (Tycho Brahe was the famous
astronomer). There were five books in the series: (1) THE WONDERFUL
FLIGHT TO THE MUSHROOM PLANET, (2) STOWAWAY TO THE MUSHROOM PLANET,
(3) MR. BASS'S PLANETOID, (4) A MYSTERY FOR MR. BASS, and (5) TIME
AND MR. BASS.

From:   mind!rob        (Robert N. Bernard)
> jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) writes:
>> The single book I remember well, of the series, involved the
>> common 2 characters (an astronaut-type and his cat) who went to
>> Venus....  Anybody remember the name of the cat and or series?
> I remember this too as being my first sf.  I'm pretty sure this is
> the "Space Cat" series and there are more books than just this
> one.  I read them when I was 10 or 11, but they would be good
> books in order to introduce one's kids (ages 8-10) to sf.  I have
> no idea what the author's name was, although I wouldn't mind
> finding out.

Ruthven Todd. There were four books in the series: (1) SPACE CAT,
(2) SPACE CAT VISITS VENUS, (3) SPACE CAT MEETS MARS, and (4) SPACE
CAT AND THE KITTENS.

From:   Jerry Stearns <CORDWAIN%UMNACVX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>   I remember some of those Scholastic Book Club books in grade
> school and Junior High school: _Man of Many Minds_ ...I don't
> remember the author...

E. Everett Evans.

> ... _Miss Pickerel Goes to Mars_, and others in the Miss Pickerel
> series: again, I forget the author...

Ellen MacGregor (later ones were collaborations with Dora Pantell).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 87 21:35:03 GMT
From: cit-vax!elroy!nrcvax!terry@RUTGERS.EDU (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh???

The first SF story I can remember reading was
_Citizen_of_the_Galaxy_.  I was already into fantasy very deeply,
having read the majority of the Narnia series (maybe all of it, I
don't recall), _The_Hobbit_, the Green Knoll books, and anything
else I could get my hands on.  All this was in grade school.  By the
time I got to high school I was a confirmed SF afficionado.

Terry Grevstad
Network Research Corporation
ihnp4!nrcvax!terry
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 87 15:42:40 GMT
From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: First SF

As I recall I was 'corrupted' by a teacher! I was about 10-11 with a
large appetite for reading matter of any sort and this teacher whose
name I can never remember (although she teaches at the same school
as my aunt now) once gave the class a list of books which she
thought we might find interesting to read over the summer holidays.
Sadly I cannot remember all of the books now even though I didn't
get to read all of them, but the titles that stuck out were "The
Hobbit","The Lord of The Rings", the Narnia books and "The Day of
the Triffids". I read them and was hooked!
  "The Lord of the Rings" was the first book that kept me awake
until about three in the morning reading it, especially the episode
in Shelobs Lair.  Nowadays I find it very hard to read epic fantasy
as I keep finding it can't live up to Tolkien. There are of course
exceptions such as the excellent "Riftwar Saga" and "The Belgariad"
(yes I know it's simplistic and predictable with more stereotypes
than in an episode of *insert your favourite soap here* but I just
like the style).
   I can't say I ever had problems getting hold of sf from libraries
or anything, I certainly never came up against the "No we won't
stock THAT" syndrome that others have mentioned, in fact the
librarians at the local branch tend to go out of their way to get
hold of books, or maybe I just get on well with them.
   I hope these ramblings prove useful to someone other than myself!

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 87 16:37:08 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh???

"Star Man's Son", by Andre Norton (Also known, I believe, as
"Daybreak: 2250 A.D.").  In a post-halocaust America, a youth
voyages from his tribal homeland to visit the remains of a nuked
Chicago, accompanied by his giant mutant cat, Lura.  He finds the
city occupied by a strange mutant "beast-things" which apparently
evolved from Russian soldiers sent to occupy the city and rats (as I
recall it).

Sounds silly now, but to an 11 year old, it was wonderful.  30 years
later, I'm still hooked, probably because I always had a wild
imagination and liked releasing it with weird ideas and situations.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 07:36:33 GMT
From: nu3b2!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: First Science Fiction

The First story I read was about people from regil, who look like
elephants, who come to earth to mine "the stuff of life" from the
earth.  Durring touchdown they release a substnce that turned every
living (organic) thing in north america into "living metal." most of
the above died, the survivors numbering something like six.  They
collected these, and rticulated the metal into robots and returned
them to their original sorundings so they wouldn't go into shock.
   It's the metal "US" against the creating "them" [with the help of
the austrailians who were far enough away to survive with the side
efect of being turned blue [iron in blood replaced with cobalt]]
   Reasons were given for everything, reasonably good reasons after
the inital buisness"

   It was very striking to me, I was eight or so, but I can't
remember the title.
   I liked it cause I would have loved to be one of the robots as
described.

   Anybody know the title?

Robert

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 87 10:12 PDT
From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: First SF

First SF?  Gawd, I don't know how so many people have such detailed
memories of the early years of their lives.  I can barely remember
what I read last year - much less fifteen years ago.  Also, this
topic has prompted me to hypothesize that early readers are more
likely to be found among science fiction fans than among the general
population.  Anybody care to do a study?

At any rate, I read lots of stuff that has been mentioned on the
list before I became "hooked" (Mushroom Planet, Phantom TollBooth,
Tom Swift Jr, many Scholastic books), most of which I do not
remember.  I don't remember if I was into SF yet or not, but a
friend gave me a book by Andre Norton (2250 AD?), and the largest
part of my early SF readings were by her.  The fact that my Aunt had
every Andre Norton book ever published (well, perhaps I exaggerate -
but only a little) helped me out greatly.  By Jr High, I was hooked,
and I was moving into Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, and Tolkien (read
LotR 7 times in two years).  Since then my horizons have continually
broadened, and I love it.  I enjoy an occasionaly mystery or
thriller, but I don't see how anyone can live without regular large
doses of fantasy and science fiction!

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 01:51:14 GMT
From: dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Darren Leigh)
Subject: Re: First SF

I guess I got my first real science fiction reading experience in
fourth grade.  They were passing out paperbacks and I got two: The
Runaway Robot (by Lester del Rey?) and another one whose title I
don't remember: it was about the revolution of earth's colony on
Alpha Centauri, with all kinds of parallels with the American
revolution ("No taxation without representation.").  A really neat
part was where the hero (outside the ship doing repairs after the
hyperspace drive broke) loosed his own tether to jump out and save a
fellow workman.  Apparently the only propulsion device he had was a
pistol, so he only had six shots to get back!  I appreciated it.  I
was only nine.

I also remember a book that someone else mentioned:
_You_Will_Go_to_the_Moon_ (the one with the boy on the cover staring
up at a huge full moon.  I guess my parents gave me that book for
Christmas sometime around 1969 and Apollo 11 (I have no idea exactly
when).

I also had a little "action figure" named Major Matt Mason, an
astronaut complete with helmut, space capsule (I think) and a lunar
rover that I could "program" with plastic pegs.  How old was I?
Five?  Six?  It really has been a long time.  I remember watching
the Apollo shots on TV and thinking that this was normal, that there
was nothing spectacularly new about the whole thing.  I was
fascinated, but I thought it was an everyday occurance.

Darren Leigh
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
dleigh@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 87 20:35:37 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!tut!eal@RUTGERS.EDU (Lehtim{ki Erkki)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction--huh???

If Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars serie is SCiFi, then my first SF was
John Carter of Mars. If not, then it was one Finnish Scince Fiction
book, i don't know if it is ever transleted into English.

Erkki A. Lehtim{ki
eal@tut.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 17:06 PDT
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
Subject: Alien Life (a question of reaction)
To: ARMS-D@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU

I am sending this to both SF-Lovers and Arms because they seem to be
the appropriate groups.  So, here is comes...please feel free to
speculate...what would the effect of having proof that there is
intelligent life somewhere off-earth?  What do you think would
happen to US/USSR defense departments?  Do you think there would be
a change in the way countries relate to eachother?  Perhaps you
could send me your responses and I can copile them and re-send them
to the DL.

Thanks,

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 21:46:40 GMT
From: dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Darren Leigh)
Subject: Re: Alien Life (a question of reaction)

From: William Daul <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
> would the effect of having proof that there is intelligent life
> somewhere off-earth?  What do you think would happen to US/USSR
> defense departments?  Do you think there would be a change in the
> way countries relate to eachother?

Have you read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card?  It has a very
interesting treatment on this subject.

Darren Leigh
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 87 07:13:32 CDT
From: PM - Aviation Life Support <AMCPM.ALSE@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
To: king@KESTREL.ARPA

> Dick King (king@kestrel.arpa) wrote:
> I might be interested in the T-Shirts What would the artwork be?

There is no charge for the artwork, to the best of my knowledge
nobody has even suggested a design, so everything is still kinda up
in the air. Any suggestions from anybody?

Ed Bruck
12125 Valencia
Spanish Lake, MO 63138
ARPANET:  AMCPM.ALSE2@AMCPM.ALSE2@STL-HOST1.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



