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Summary-line:  2-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #1
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 JUL 1981 0807-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #1
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Wed, 1 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Giant's Star & Space barnacles & SF nostalgia &
               No S in SF & "Epilogue" & Farthest Star,
             SF Topics - Personal identity & Tom Swiftie,
         SF Movies - Heavy Metal & 2001 parody & Dragonslayer
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1981 14:45:35-PDT
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (& Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: Minor puzzle re: "Giant's Star"

James P. Hogan's new novel, "Giant's Star" has just been published (in
paperback) - on the back cover it says "FIRST TIME IN PRINT" - and the
copyright is 1981 - but about a year ago I saw a listing for this book
in "Books In Print".  Unfortunately, the local bookstores and
libraries only have the most recent (80-81) version of "Books In
Print", which does not list "Giant's Star".  Does anyone out there
have the 79-80 or 78-79 author index to check this out?  Does anyone
know what's going on with this book?

Another minor note:  the starbow on the cover is NOT backwards,
because it is not a starbow.  Nowhere in the book are starbows
mentioned.  The cover could be an attempt at depicting one of the
spinning black holes used for hyperspace jumps, in which case the
order of the colors is correct.
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 13:58:13-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: space barnacles

...were fron the short story "Barnacle Bull" by Poul Anderson.  Basic
premiss was that ship exploring the asteroid belt runs into weird
organisms which live by processing metal using solar energy.
Naturally, these organisms regard a highly-processed metal spaceship
as some sort of giant Twinkie (another highly-processed form of food),
and settle in for a big feed, causing all sorts of problems for the
crew.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 13:20:52-PDT
From: Greg Woodbury (mhtsa!hocsr!ggw at BERKELEY)
Subject: Nostalgia and SF in childhood

My turn!  I may be somewhat of a  freak, but my father was an avid  SF
reader as long as I can remember and he kept ALL the books and mags he
read in his library.   Having been told NOT  to read Papa's books  >of
course< prompted me to read them when  I could get a hold of them.   I
cut my teeth  on Astounding/ANALOG/F&SF/etc...   When I  went away  to
boarding school  ( I was a beast )  and  had  to be  content with  the
"Juvenile" books they  kept in their  library, I was  hard put to  not
throw away most of the Tom Swift level of trash that the  Headmistress
thought was "Science Fiction".  There  was one gem that somehow  found
its way past Mrs. Crowley -- "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeleine L'Engle.
Does anyone else remember this one about 4 dimensional transfer and an
evil  overmind  intelligence?   Eventually,   some  of  the   Heinlein
juveniles  ( hardly juvenile  in  reality )  were donated  by  certain
parents to the school (not mine.)
      Also, I'm pleased to see that there is some recognition for  the
wonderful "Space Child's Mother Goose".  My 2nd favorite poem in  that
book is "The Theory that Jack Built" and the great illustrations.  The
footnote definitions are better than the poems.
                                        --wolfe
(P.S.:  To the moderator, Keep up the Good Work, we languish in the
desert without SF relief, North Jersey [Morristown Area] has no active
SF Fan Club that I can find.  --greg & sue woodbury (201)540-8615)

[Sure, I can edit that P.S. out.  No problem.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 14:07:35-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: no s in sf?

Hasn't anyone out there read, or even heard of, Hal Clement?  Clement
(aka Harry C. Stubbs, mild-mannered high-school physics teacher
[really!]) has written loads of sf in which science either was used to
resolve a plot complication or played a central role in the story.
His stories proceed quite rationally from his originally selected
hypotheses.  Those interested in reading some Clement might try the
following partial bibliography:

\\Mission of Gravity// (novel)
\\The Best of Hal Clement// (short story collection)
"Dust Rag" (short story, seen in several places, including Asimov's sf
        collection \\Where Do We Go From Here?//
another story (title currently forgotten) in \\Astounding: The John W.
        Campbell Memorial Anthology// (ed. Harry Harrison).  This
        story concerns characters from \\Mission of Gravity//, but can
        stand by itself if you can't find the first book.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 14:37:18-PDT
From: Cory.cc-treas at Berkeley
Subject: MISTAKE & PROVOCATION

        I made a mistake in my recall.  The story by Poul Anderson was
'Epilogue' and it was (and is) in the book 'Time and the Stars' a
collection of his short stories.
        Now the provocation:  Given the high rate of crime in this
country, what would you sf-lovers out there say if I said that I have
a system with which I can predict (reasonably accurately) recidivism
in parolees and ex-convicts?

                                Erik Fair
                                Cory:cc-treas@Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 10:56:16 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-NU>
Subject: self-identity

In yesterday's digest DHARE at SRI-CSL mentioned a plot fragment in
reference to self-identity in alternate universes.  The idea was about
a matter copying machine which is used to create a copy of a person
leaving the original untouched.  This is the plot (or rather a part of
the plot) of FARTHEST STAR by Pohl and Williamson.  I read this last
several years ago so my memory is not wholly reliable, but I seem to
remember that they discussed the psychological problems involved in
this sort of thing in some depth.  By the way, rumor has it that this
is the first volume of a trilogy, the rest of which has gotten hung up
somehow.  Too bad, 'cause the first volume's a real winner, even
though it doesn't end . . .

                                        --Ben

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 (Tuesday) 1112-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: Personal Identity

This is a very very touchy phisosophical subject.  I think that if you
are actually interested for real you will have better luck reading a
philosophical anthology (there is a very good one by, I believe,
Perry) that reads like SF so you might enjoy it.  [Deja vu ... didn't
we talk about this a few months ago?]  I have packed my books so I
won't go off misquoting important philosophy just now.  In considering
this question one tends down the following paths:

        (1) Bodily identity :  insufficient on the grounds that I
            could make an exact and complete double of you which would
            clearly not have your identity.  Also, your body is
            changing often in very subtle chemical ways (or less
            subtle physical ways -- are you not you if you lose your
            arms and legs?  Of course you are!).

        (2) Memory identity (you are the entity that remembers the
            things that "you" do).  Consider the case in which I
            hypnotise you so you think you are Lauren and then Lauren
            so that he thinks he is you (down to ALL memories).  Wrong
            again!

        (3) Brain identity has a lot of the same problems as bodily
            identity.  There is another argument against this position
            that I don't remember well enough to relate.

Hmmmm... there are other positions that I should really dig into my
book boxes for but I'll avoid it just now.

BTW:  The study of possible universes is where SF meets philosophy.
        One of my favorites is an argument about whether a population
        (like a country or city) can have "pain" (I don't recall who
        put this forth).  Consider the case in which the earth was
        infiltrated by billions of tiny people that had a space suit
        which gave them properties like that of water, calcium, etc
        molecules.  Now consider in the normal confluence of
        chemicals, your body were entirely replaced by these "pseudo
        water, etc" molecules that are really tiny aliens.  Would you
        stop having pained feelings???

(Maybe I can convert some of your hackers over to philosophy)

-- Jeff

[Yes, Jeff, SF-Lovers did discuss precisely this subject several
months ago.  The issue arose from a discussion of matter transmission.
We envisioned multiple copies of people as a possible pitfall of some
of the mechanisms we came up with.  Before rehashing this subject,
perhaps our newer readers might first review what was said in that
discussion.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 12:37 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Tom Swift Verbal pun [V3 #159]

This is (as usual) getting somewhat away from SF, but as long as
someone has mentioned "Tom Swift Verbal puns" (which I've always
thought of as just another form of Tom Swiftie), I'll bring up my own
favorite, a "double pun":
        "Who says I'm a faggot?" Tom queried, half in earnest.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 (Tuesday) 1054-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: Heavy Metal

I just heard a short on local rock radio about this film.  (1) it is
based on something from the mag of the same name, (2) it will be heavy
into rock as well as metal including special issues of DEVO and many
others.  They are aparently doing the sound (at least the opening
music) in 48 track!!!!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 17:13:33-PDT
From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
Subject: 2001 parodies (sort of), Writing by committee

In the movie "Catch-22" Alan Arkin (playing Yossarian) is sitting in
an outdoor cafe on an Italian street, when he sees a voluptous woman
walking towards him.  The camera pans slowly up her body while the
orchestra plays the familiar strains of "Also sprach Zarathustra"
(the theme from 2001).  Arkin does an imitation of one of the apes
wanting to touch her body but not daring to.

In the middle '60s, the staff of the the Long Island (NY) newspaper
"Newsday" got disgusted at a lot of the novels that were getting
printed and making scads of money (Jaqueline Suzanne [sp?] et al.).
It was decided by one of the editors that they should collectively
write a novel, each person to contribute one chapter, following a plot
outline made by the editor.

The two rules for this enterprise was that (1) there shall be an
unremitting emphasis on sex, and (2) all attempts at good writing
shall be ruthlessly stamped out (one person in the project complained
that there was one person on the staff who simply could not write
badly enough to contribute).

The outcome of this experiment was a book called "Naked Came the
Stranger", by "Penelope Ashe".  It enjoyed a modest success, and did
make a profit.
                                May your sidewalks never crack,
                                John

------------------------------

Date: 29 June 1981 08:54-EDT
From: John Howard Palevich <TANG at MIT-AI>
Subject: Dragonslayer SFX

        The newest issue of Info-world has a picture of the
Dragonslayer dragon on the front cover and an article on the inside
which claims that the dragon was animated IN REAL TIME by 16 stepper
motors and an Apple II.  The ILM people said that doing the animation
in that manner enabled them to create a much more realistic effect
than stop-motion techniques.

        Now if they were to put the Apple II INSIDE the dragon. . . .

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 10:03 PDT
From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: DRAGONSLAYER is MILD

        After seeing such a slam-bang adventure like RotLA, it's hard
to get excited over "DragonSlayer".
        But this isn't to say that "DragonSlayer", with its handful of
special effects, simple plot and even simpler acting isn't any good.
It is horrible!
        My advice is save your time and money!!!!

                                \TMP. . .
------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 Jun 1981 13:07-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Dragonslayer tidbits

        Two points about "Dragonslayer", a movie which I REALLY
enjoyed:

        1) There is quite a lot of spoken Latin in this movie, mostly
having to do with magic.  I never took any formal Latin courses, but I
can understand quite a bit of it, and I can assure you that it is
correct and ingenious.  Someone did a LARGE amount of research in
scripting this movie!  If you know any Latin, it will significantly
add to your enjoyment of the film.

        2) As was mentioned before, the special effects were
subcontracted to George Lucas' Industrial Light and Magic.  An
interesting point for FX fans is that this is the first time that
stop-motion animation has been used with "motion blur".  Ordinarily,
stop-motion animation results in each frame of film having a crisp,
clear picture on it, instead of the normal blurring that one sees with
real motion.  This results in a fair number of disturbing optical
illusions, such as jerkiness (even with one frame per animation move)
and double images.  A computer-controlled articulated dragon skeleton
inside the dragon resulted in the ability to have the dragon actually
moving past the position point for each frame as the frame was shot,
so that what goes on the film is a purposely blurred image
indistinguishable from what would be on the film if a real,
continuously-moving object were filmed in real time.  The effect is
astoundingly good.

        If you are both a fantasy and an effects fan, you will come
out, as I did, believing that the film is MUCH better than it probably
is in reality.  It didn't help my objectivity any that I fell in love
with the heroine.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 June 1981, 23:55-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: Flames on "Dragonslayer"

Shade and Sweet water,

        Oh Lord, spare me movies with a big 'self-sacrifice' theme...
Why does everyone in this film have such a hankering to go out and get
themselves killed?  The Wizard's kamikazi style finale struck me as an
utter trash of all the things a wizard is supposed to be (self-
centered, selfish...), and has to be to get that high in the magical
hierarchy.

        As to the plot itself, nothing impressed me as being any more
explicit or daring than Disney has handled before.  If they could have
made their mind up regarding Christianity, it might have been better,
but it suffered from a severe case of 'plotus telegraphicus', both me
and the person I saw it with guessed the ending 10 minutes before it
came... sigh.  Whoever said it was the neatest 'kill the monster'
scene he had ever seen...well, maybe he thought so...but I can't hold
with that.  The pace was slow, the action minimized.  Niven can get
away with a tempo like this ("What good is a glass dagger"), but it
does not translate well to film.  It can't come close to my favorite
visual trashing story, something which isn't even on film (yet).

        The effects were the worst shock.  Everything was in dim
lighting, four years after SW proved you could do effects in daylight
convincingly.  The 'straffing' was done from a distance, and the
close-ups were mostly mechanicals.

        In all, it's worth seeing...once.  It will not have the
staying power, or the long lasting effect of a RotLA or a Star Wars.

                                        James

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #2
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 JUL 1981 2236-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #2
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thu, 2 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:
                     SF Fandom - Northern Jersey,
   SF Books - Kuttner correction & Hal Clement & Madeleine L'Engle,
     SF Movies - THX-1138 in Star Wars & Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07/02/81 1058-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Northern Jersey SF clubs

      To those it may concern (especially Greg and Sue Woodbury);

      There certainly is an active SF group in Northern Jersey, close
 to the Paramas area.  It is the Bergan County Science Fiction
 Society(?).  They meet approximately once a month at the Emerson Town
 Hall and usually have a guest speaker.  For more information contact
 Margret Purdy on Kenilworth Rd. in Ridgewood (She lives at home, so
 the phone will be in her parents name.)

      I occasionally visited this group when I traveled to New York
 City.  A frequent pro attendee at the meetings was Barry Malzberg.
 Munchies are provided.  They are also book reviewers and give out two
 new books (free) in exchange for a book review on at least one of the
 books.  I believe there is a maximum of four books you can take each
 month.

   Hope they are not too far a drive for you.

                                             Greg

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1981 19:55-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject:  "The Best of Lewis Padgett"

OOPS!  Forgot to expand a macro - read that as "The best of Henry
Kuttner"

-- Rats
   Charles (CEH@MC)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1981 14:03 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Hal Clement

I certainly hope that many SFL readers have heard of Clement!  And I
agree that it's a serious oversight that he hasn't been mentioned yet
in the "science in science fiction" debate.  (At least, I don't
remember seeing him mentioned.)  His novels in particular tend to be
extremely well thought out, in terms of physics, evolution, etc.  I've
heard rumors that he has been known to build models of the planets and
systems he uses in order to make sure he gets some of the details
right, and a recent reprint of "Mission of Gravity" includes an
article he wrote describing how he derived the characteristics of life
on the world involved.

I'm surprised you didn't include two of his best-known novels ("M of
G" is another), namely "Iceworld" and "Needle".

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date:  2 Jul 1981  8:47:31 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-NU>
Subject: Hal Clement

Yes, I've read this dude's stuff, and yes, there is quite a bit of
science in it (at the high school level, though).  My objections are
twofold.  First, the writing style is dry, dry, DRY.  Second,
Clement's aliens are the old "humans in another form" kind, completely
unbelievable.  Despite this, I have continued to read his stuff, and
enjoy it more than some of the newer writers who confuse me with
feelings, etc.

A further comment:  in the new edition of MISSION OF GRAVITY, there is
a postscript about the physics/mathematics of the planet which claims
that you can figure out the gravity without any integration!  I have
not read this postscript (I read the old edition), but I doubt the
validity of this, and when I read the story, I thought that it sounded
unphysical.  Any comments?

For those who like this kind of SF, may I further recommend Forward's
DRAGON'S EGG and the early Hogan books.  These all fall into the
"Super Science Conquers All" mold, but aren't bad anyway.

                                later...
                                        Ben

------------------------------

Date:  2 Jul 1981 10:25:58 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ward Harriman <harriman at BBN-RSM>
Subject: A wrinkle in time.

Yep, I remember A Wrinkle in Time all too well.  Interestingly, there
were at least two other books along the same theme.  One was A Swiftly
Tilting Planet and the other I don't remember.  Both were good but not
nearly as good as A Wrinkle in Time.  A Swiftly Tilting Planet deals
with unicorns (which is where I got interested for strange reasons).
Unicorns, it turned out, could travel in time rather easily but had
alot of problems moving in the lesser three dimensions.  A fun idea.
By all means, get and read the two follow ons.

ward

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1981 11:17:48-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: A WRINKLE IN TIME

   I'll bet there are a \\lot// of people who remember this.  I
remember being steered to it by a friendly county librarian just after
it came out.  Unfortunately, I felt the two subsequent books (A WIND
IN THE DOOR and A SWIFTLY TILTING PLANET were severely disappointing.
   Hang in there!  (I know a fan who \used/ to live in Morristown; he
moved to DC.)

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  2 Jul 1981 14:41-PDT
From: chris at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Madeleine L'Engle

     Wrinkle in Time was probably the first SF I ever read, and won
the Newberry in 1962 or thereabouts for best children's book of the
year.  It is now part one of The Time Trilogy (which includes Wind in
the Door and Swiftly Tilting Planet, with the same characters at later
times), but it is also connected to another set of L'Engle books
dealing with the Austin family.  These are Meet the Austins (straight
teen-age-girl fare, about growing up in New England in the late
50's/early 60's or so), The Moon by Night (in which the Austins camp
their way from New England to California and back, and survive the
Yellowstone Earthquake; Meg and Charles Wallace Murray are mentioned
briefly by one of the characters in the book, and so ambiguously that
it isn't possible to decide whether they are to be considered real or
imaginary); The Arm of the Starfish (in which a young boy, Adam, goes
to work for Dr. Calvin O'Keefe, now grown up and married to Meg
Murray), The Young Unicorns (dealing with the Austins, and which has
Canon Tom Tallis from Arm of the Starfish in it, and takes place
immediately after Moon by Night), Dragon in the Waters (again about
the O'Keefe kids, this time in South America), and finally Ring of
Endless Light, in which Vicky of the Austin books runs into Adam of
the Murray/O'Keefe books.  Many of the themes are similar:  the
effects of evil behavior on healing (i.e., spiritual and physiological
interactions) are the dominant themes of Wind in the Door, Arm of the
Starfish and Dragon in the Waters.  The books of the Time Trilogy are
mostly SF in nature, but Ring of Endless Light has an interesting side
problem as Vicky develops a talent for telepathy with dolphins.  I
have never been able to work out a satisfactory chronology for all the
Austin/Murray/O'Keefe stories; Moon by Night would have to take place
about 1962 to fit the Yellowstone Quake, but there isn't enough time
for the Murray kids to grow up.  If you like your stories with heavy
morals, you should like all of L'Engle's stuff; she writes well but
she does preach (however, I happen to like that sort of thing, and I
have long loved and recently reread all of the abovementioned and
still like them).

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1981 01:44-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>

THX-1138 does appear in the Star Wars (SW) novel, as the name of the
guard who is mugged by Luke and Co.  I don't recall if it was the same
in the movie, but I don't think so.

                        James

------------------------------

Date:  1 July 1981 1804-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Gregg.Podnar at CMU-10A
Subject: THX-1138 in Star Wars

Aha, ha! In the movie:
        When Luke donned the trooper's suit and came out of the
        Millenium Falcon an officer in the control center asked
        something like:  1138 why don't you respond?  (to which he
        tapped his helm).
In the book:
        The cell from which the princess was rescued was THX-1138 (or
        138).  There may also been a parallel to this in the film but
        I forget.
                                        Podnar@CMU-10A

------------------------------

Date:  2 Jul 1981 at 0015-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ T H X 1 1 3 8  IN STAR WARS-4 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The closest to the sequence  T H X 1 1 3 8  in STAR WARS (4) was--

   LUKE:   Prisoner transfer from cell block one-one-three-eight.

when Luke & Han were disguised as stormtroopers.  There are some other
partial ones, tho, such as when Luke sells his landspeeder in Mos
Eisley--

   LUKE:   All right, give it to me, I'll take it. . . <stilt-legs in
           silhouette cross screen in foreground> . .  Look at this!
           Ever since the XP-38 came out, they just aren't in demand.

The sequence 3 and 2-7 is a runner-up to 3-8 in the SW4 digit use.
E.g., getting out of the garbage chamber--

   LUKE:   ...Open the pressure maintenance hatch on unit number--
           Where are we?-- 3-2-6 3-8-2-7.

and when the Millenium Falcon is drawn into the Death Star--

   LOUDSPEAKER: Clear bay 327.  We are opening the magnetic field.

(The SF-LOVERS Archives has a vast quantity of such material in a
special SW file, for newcomers who might like to browse.)

------------------------------

Date: 1-Jul-81 1831-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: AL LEHOTSKY at METOO
Subject: SFL Volume 3, Issues 158-161

With respect to "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (RotLA) and stunt-doubles, a
recent interview with Harrison Ford in the Boston Globe said that he
did about 95% of the "stunts" himself.

In particular, he was supposed to have learned the bullwhip and
improved his horsemanship.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1981 1410-PDT
Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3
From: Amy Newell (through WMartin at Office-3)
Subject: Opinionated Review of Raiders

  This editorial/review was in one of the weekly St.Louis papers ("The
Riverfront Times") this week.  Am sending it along not because I agree
with it, but because I find several things to disagree with and am
wondering if I'm the only one who does.  Will give it to you without
saying where I think it goes off the deep end until you have a chance
to read and digest a bit.

"Raiders of the Lost Clarity"

 American Journal by David Armstrong

  The kids in the darkened theatre cheer when the hero mounts his
white horse and gallops after the bad guys.  The popcorn is fresh, the
Yanks are winning and all is right with the world.  It's a Saturday
matinee in America, 1981.  The movie is the new megabuck release from
George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

  It's gonna be a monster, as they say in Show Biz.  Meaning:  it's
going to make as much money as Lucas and Spielberg's biggest previous
productions (Star Wars and Jaws, respectively), and do a great deal to
shape our national fantasies for the next year or two, besides.  From
a strictly-entertainment point-of-view, that's fine.  Raiders is a
socko movie, brilliantly edited to a staccato, thrill-a-minute clip,
with great sight-gags and a Dolby soundtrack that makes every punch
and slap sound like bombs bursting in air.

  Viewed in a political perspective, however, "Raiders of the Lost
Ark" is less enchanting.  The more-American-than-apple-pie hero--who
bears the felicitous name Indiana Jones--lashes his way through a
variety of Third World locales, scattering crowded marketplaces and
demolishing construction sites in his quest to outmuscle the villains
and rescue the damsel in distress.  Of course, the simple natives love
him anyway, because Jones sticks it to the "really" evil guys--German
Nazis, circa 1936.  We can tell they're evil because they speak in
menacing accents and wear uniforms.  Jones, he wears old clothes and
this boyish beard, and his speech is Midwestern, direct, flat.

  So, there are no troubling questions of conscience in this movie, no
unsettling ambiguities.  WE are the Good Guys, and THEY are the Bad
Guys, and we beat the bejeesus out of them, period.  "Raiders of the
Lost Ark", despite its big-budget gloss, is a conventional action
picture, artistically and politically conservative, drenched in
nostalgia for a time when Americans believed themselves to be
politically pure and militarily omnipotent.

  Raiders is of a piece with Lucas' earlier films, such as "American
Graffiti", a nostalgic look back at the director's high school
days--made when he was still in his twenties--and "Star Wars" and "The
Empire Strikes Back", in which the values of an idealized American
past are set in a futuristic conception of outer space.

  Spielberg's track record is more complex.  It includes pictures that
explore ambiguity and doubt, such as "The Sugarland Express" and even
"Close Encounters of The Third Kind", in which the benevolence of the
saucer people is left up in the air until the film's final climactic
moments.  With Raiders, Spielberg appears to be turning his back--only
temporarily, one hopes--on subtle colorations of character for the
simple clarity of a world viewed in black and white.

  "Raiders of the Lost Ark" depicts not just a quest for the Lost Ark
of the Covenant, but an invocation of lost innocence--the Golden Age
of America's past, when we outproduced everybody and won all the wars.
In a scene toward the end of the film, Jones (played by Empire's
leading man, Harrison Ford) is nearly run over by a German plane that
unfortunately bursts into flame before it can do any harm.  Although
I'm sure it's coincidental, the wreckage of that plane looks like
nothing so much as the famous photograph of the smoldering American
helicopters in the Iranian desert widely circulated last year.  In the
movies, where wishes come true, it's the other side's aircraft that
crack up and burn.

  It is, perhaps, a sign of the times that these popcorn passion plays
are being produced by young directors-- Spielberg and Lucas are both
in their thirties.  Despite the recent example of the experimental
cinema of the 1960s, with which they are undoubtedly familiar, Lucas
and Spielberg have forsaken risk to stick to the safe commercial
formulae of the 1940s.

  Of course, one can argue--as the filmmakers themselves do--that
Raiders, like their other work, is "only a movie" only entertainment,
and not meant to be taken seriously.  That "Raiders of the Lost Ark"
is an entertaining picture, there is no doubt, but we're being more
than entertained when we cheer the hero on the white charger.  Lest we
forget, Nixon watched "Patton" several times just before he decided to
invade Cambodia, and a star of Grade B oatburners has taken his place
in the White House, itchy trigger finger and all.  Praise the
Raisinettes and pass the ammunition.

Regards, Amy Newell

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #3
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 JUL 1981 1755-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #3
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Sat, 4 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:
                       SF Radio - Dr. Demento,
           SF Books - Wizard Poll & TIMESCAPE & Mysticism,
             SF Movies - Out-takes & "Close Encounters" &
                      "Raiders of the Lost Ark",
                           Spoilers - RotLA
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1981 1327-PDT
From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE
Subject: Dr. Demento

I've heard Dr. Demento a couple of times on KOME (98.5 FM) Sundays
19.00-21.00.
        --Per Bothner

[Confirmed.  Thanks also to Charles E. Haynes (CEH at MIT-MC) for
information leading to this station.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1981 at 0311-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHAT'S A "WIZARD" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A few issues ago Dan Shapiro posed a poll of fantasy novels with
prominent wizards.  His specifying "fantasy" would eliminate Colin
Kapp's THE WIZARD OF ANHARITTE, but what about Niven & Gerrold's THE
FLYING SORCERERS?

Which raises the real problem I'm writing about-- just what kind(s) of
practitioners of magic does he have in mind?  There's a lot of overlap
between the use of "wizard" and the probably even commoner "magician"
and "sorcerer", as well as...
  shaman...(male) witch...warlock...thaumaturgist...conjurer...
  necromancer...seer...medicine man...astrologer...soothsayer...
  diviner...witch doctor...alchemist... and archimage.

Would he include Brother Sean of Garrett's Lord Darcy tales, since one
IS a novel?  But then, what about Lythande in THIEVES' WORLD, a
collection of related stories by many hands, edited by Asprin?

Hey, Dan!  It sounds like fun, but what're the rules of your game?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1981 1006-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3
Subject: Timescape

Immediate reaction upon reading McLure's comment on Timescape by
Benford:

I happen to be reading it right now; am about half-way through it.  It
happened to be on my desk just as I started reading the latest SFL
Digests. I'm afraid I can't share McLure's enthusiasm.  Yes, it
certainly does draw upon Benford's physics background; I am thinking
of it as a novel about California in the 60's which happens to include
some scientific aspects (most notably rather dreary renditions of
academic politics and the drudgery of real-life experimentation) plus
interpolations of happenings in the not-too-distant future.  (It's no
spoiler to say that the novel is concerned with the attempt of a
future group to communicate with the past by affecting an experiment
they knew to occur in the 60's by sending a tachyon beam cross-time at
it.)  Maybe things get much better in the latter part; I will read on
with a bit more hope than I have otherwise been feeling.

However, why would it automatically make the book "better" because the
characters are emphasized over technology or setting?  God knows there
are too many real people already; we don't have to waste time creating
fictional ones to "care about"!  I enjoy setting and plot much more
than characters, which may be why I read SF and ignore fiction about
personalities or that which emphasizes character development.

Maybe an example of this is Poul Anderson's AVATAR, which I just sort
of finished.  The first part of the book dealt with people and their
interrelationships in detail and depth.  I got about a third of the
way through and started skipping through the rest to see if it was any
better.  The latter portion turned out to practically ignore the
characters and instead emphasized clever and rapidly-changing
settings.  I found that part thoroughly enjoyable, and read it with
enthusiasm.  (My opinion of the way the book bogged down in the early
part was shared by a fellow reader, who had given up just about that
same distance into the book I had gotten.)

That's the sort of difference I feel characterizes much of what I
consider to be good SF, and what makes so much ordinary fiction so
uninteresting to me.  I certainly accept that this is a personal bias,
but I do feel that the attitude may be more common among fans than
among the populace at large.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 07/01/81 1422-EDT
From: SORCEROR at LL
Subject: Mysticism vs. Technology in SF ??????

     The idea that mysticism and technology are in conflict, as
expressed by Rachel Silber, should not be viewed as an inevitable
fact.  Acceptance of "the way things are" should not be regarded as an
essential feature of all mystical thinking.  Such an attitude of
acceptance IS a major component of many of the brands of mysticism
which have been assimilated into popular culture; I am in perfect
agreement with Ms. Silber, on that point.  However, one is committing
an an error in generalizing from that perception to draw conclusions
about all mystical beliefs, or conclusions about the value of
mysticism as an intellectual enterprise.  Please, let us avoid
prejudices, developed on the basis of such fallacious logic.

     I regard certain types of mystical concepts as natural and normal
responses to unpleasant psychological/philosophical problems which
human beings face, e.g. existential isolation ("cosmic aloneness"),
and the futility of a life confronted by the inevitability of death.
By its own admission, science does not attempt to address these
issues, directly.  Some mystical beliefs challenge these "facts" of
the human condition, in the same spirit with which SF may challenge
some of our beliefs about the physical universe.  Ms. Silber's
perspective emphasizes SF's capacity for IDEALISM, i.e. the ability to
study the world as we might want it to be, rather than as we actually
find it.  Some brands of mystical thought are analogous exercises in
idealism, but about issues which do not fall under the scope of
science.  Idealistic motivations form a common thread which connects
SF and certain types of mysticism; this thread should not (and
arguably CANNOT) be severed by scientific chauvinists.  On what basis
should we accept the fantasies of faster-than-light travel, or mental
telepathy, while rejecting those of astral projection, or the idea
that the structure of the universe is exhibited in the sums of the
numerical values of the letters which make up words ?

     I am in total agreement with Ms. Silber's reactions to the
mystical trends seen in popular culture.  Many recent religious
movements do advocate abdication of analytical thinking and the will
to engage in analytical thinking.  Clearly, such goals are in
disagreement with the values of SF.  However, other beliefs such as
astrology, prophecy (e.g. Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), and UFO/Alien
Visitor stories, are disturbing, NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR CONTENT, but
because their adherents have lost touch with reality; behaving as
though the subjects of their beliefs were true facts, rather than
speculations which provide entertainment and possibly some
introspective insight.  These people, too, behave in accord with
values which are in conflict with those which Ms. Silber attributes to
SF.  But certainly, one should expect that SF afficionados can
practice "suspension of disbelief", without falling prey to this
problem.  Furthermore, there are other kinds of mystical systems, such
as Alchemy and the Cabala, which aim at training people to apply their
analytical capabilities to *ALL* experiences and to exercise them at
*ALL* times.  Therefore, mysticism is not synonymous with acceptance
of the "status quo" (in a very general sense), or abdication of
rational thought.  Therefore, I can see no argument for any GENERAL
rejection of mystical ideas and issues, as subject matter which is
appropriate for SF.

                                  Sincerely,

                                        KGH

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1981 1649-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: Movie Out-takes

Does anyone out there feel like discussing the availability of
out-takes from films?  Why aren't they shown more often if at all?  Do
you have to have connections to see them?  I have seen the Star Trek
Blooper films.  They must be out there (other films)!

--Bill

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 1255-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Close Encounters returns

I just saw a wonderful ad for Close Encounters, it reads:

Close Encounters of the Third Kind
 Directed by SPIELBERG
(director of "Raiders of the Lost Ark")

...how quickly they forget.
  -Jim

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 0832-PDT
From: LEAVITT at USC-ISI
Subject: RotLA review

In a very recent issue of "The New Yorker" Pauline Kael has an
extremely bitchy review of Raiders.  I am not typing it in because I
don't want to have to read it again.  But if anybody wants to read a
review that Makes You Think, try that.  Try it after you see it,
though--it has a few spoilers.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 13:14:23-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: opinionated review of RotLA

   I almost hate to acknowledge it, but that St. Louis reviewer has
picked on a number of doubts I have about the movie, and done much
better job of it than Stanley Kaufman (who reviewed it in this week's
NEW REPUBLIC; when I read his praise of CLOSE ENCOUNTERS I gagged and
threw the magazine across the car).  I particularly found RotLA more
disturbing than either STAR WARS film in the matter of bystanders;
it's one thing to have a designated villain and quite another to hash
up the general populace while you're going after the designees.
Certainly Jones's behavior would be inexcusable today (although it
would also be a lot more unlikely, politics and border regulations in
the Third World being what they are).
   I will be quite interested to see what other people have to say
about this.

------------------------------

Date: 07/04/81 03:08:43
From: DP@MIT-ML
Subject: Raiders stunts..

   I know whoever got dragged under the truck was heavily padded.  To
pick a nit, whomever's clothes should have been slightly shredded.  In
addition, the person's skin should have a good case of road rash
(allergic reaction of skin to hard, rough surfaces; usually contracted
by unlucky motorcyclists).
                                        Jeff

------------------------------

Date:  1 Jul 1981 1243-PDT
From: CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE
Subject: Raiders "in" jokes

Some friends were at a comic book con in San Francisco a couple of
weeks ago, and went to a talk by someone from Lucasfilms, who did say
that there would be a series of Raiders films.  (I believe the
canonical term used for other films during the talk was "Raiders of
the Lost Chair", or some such.)

Anyway, there also was a description of some of the "in" jokes in the
film.  I don't remember anything about THX-1138 (I'll query my friends
again), but apparently the hieroglyphics in the temple contained
pictures of C3PO and R2D2.  Also, the gulley where Jones threatens
_____ with the _____ ((look,ma, no spoiler) is the same set where R2D2
was ambushed in SW.

This isn't all of the in jokes, but it's all I remember from the
second hand description.  Anyone catch any others?

-Barry

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 14:38:49-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Backpointers in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

There are a few, or so I'm told.  One friend of mine said that the
program available with the movie (in New York, at any rate) pointed
out many such, such as (a) the number of the seaplane is C3PO; and (b)
the drawings in the cavern where they found the Ark include many of
C3PO and R2D2.  Also, in the scene where Indiana Jones meets the
bad-guy archaeologist in the cafe, he's puffing on a hookah, which
sounds amazingly like Darth Vader's breathing.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Jul 1981 at 2216-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ T H X 1 1 3 8  IN STAR WARS-4 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In the movie:
        When Luke donned the trooper's suit and came out of the
        Millenium Falcon the officer in the control center asked--

 "TK-4-2-1, why aren't you at your post?  TK-4-2-1, do you copy?"

And, in the film version, the princess was rescued from--

  Level 5, Detention Block A-A-2-3, cell 21-87

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/4/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details about RotLA.  Readers who have not seen this movie may wish
not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 03:43:56-PDT
From: mhtsa!hocsr!ggw at Berkeley
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark

Pagan??  To call the fury of Yahweh visited upon those who scorn Him
pagan, is like calling a VAX-780 a calculator.  The actions that
earned this description occur only after the NAZI's <laugh> at the
apparent failure of God to preserve the contents of the Ark.
        I was favorably impressed with the accuracy of the Lucas/
Spielberg vision of divine wrath.  They apparently spent a lot of time
on research.  Divine retribution, from any god, is not a pretty sight,
and RotLA earned high marks from me for its mystic accuracy.  (Not
historical accuracy - that stunk.)
        I was surprised that Indiana Jones had the sense (?faith?)
enough to know that NOT WATCHING was the key to survival.  I half
expected the girl to die (a la pillar of salt) but that was a plesant
twist.  All in all I rate this movie a ***.  (One off for bad history
and jerky continuity.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 June 1981 12:11 edt
From: Margolin.PDO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Raiders

The thing in the Bible that the final scene reminded me of was the
pillar of fire that supposedly led the Hebrews in their trek across
the desert after escaping Egypt.  This was also supposed to be their
protector.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 10:29-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: RotLA

        In answer to the question of "why else would the ark char its
crate", I puzzled over that too.  Then I saw why when it was craned
out of the hold.  The charring covered exactly those areas which had
stenciled on them "Property of the Third Reich", etc.  Obviously this
was a rather political Ark.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 10:40-PDT
From: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: ROTLA

Why the Ark burned a whole in the side of the box:

        It burned off the Nazi Wehrmacht insignia.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 1981 19:31:38-PDT
From: csvax:decvax!duke!cjp at Berkeley
Subject: Charring of the ark's crate in Raiders

I just assumed that the Ark was getting angry for being penned up in a
Nazi crate.  The charring totally obliterated the Nazi insignia
thereon.  I probably got this idea from noticing, in the scene where
the Ark is being crated up, the stencil being removed from the newly-
painted crate.

It is not necessary to assume that the Tablets were destroyed at that
time.  Maybe they had disintegrated from sheer age.  The Tablets'
sandy constituents would still retain any supernatural powers they
received at their creation.

        -- Charles Poirier

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 0557-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: "Raiders"

The part about their using the imprint on the hand seemed obvious.
What I don't see is how they got any reading at all without the stone.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #4
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 JUL 1981 0030-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #4
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Sun, 5 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No missing digest,
        SF Books - TRUE NAMES & L'Engle & No dead cat sequel,
             SF Movies - RotLA in an alternate universe &
                Dragons' feeding habits & Superman II,
                        Spoilers - Superman II
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 81 0:00
From: MDP@MIT-AI
Subject: No missing digest

We skipped Friday to minimize reading-material buildup over the long
weekend, and to prevent readers from confusing the issue number with
the day of the month.

Thank you,
   Mike Peeler

------------------------------

Date: 1 July 1981 1006-EDT (Wednesday)
From: "russell at mit-ai"
Sender: Not.Logged-in at CMU-10A
Subject: EEG I/O Devices

The basic gadget of "True Names" is the portal used as the ultimate
I/O device.  Not long ago, someone on SFL asked about the UCLA EEG
interpretation project - what were the results of that inquiry?  The
people at UCLA (as I recall) were using EEG as a human => machine
interface, and managed to train some folks (and machines) to run
mazes.  (Sounds like psychologists to me!)  How much farther did they
get, and what techniques were they using?

On the obverse side, anyone know about machine => human communication
using EEG and/or other exotica?  Of course, there is the Utah
PDP11-wired-to-visual-cortex (using a bitmapped chronic electrode
array).  Anything else?

-- Dan Russell

P.S.  I just remembered another EEG interface -- Ted Nelson's book
        "Dream Machines/Computer Lib" told the (apocryphal?) story of
        some kid that wired an Alpha Wave detector up to his mini.
        Trained his subject to turn on alpha whenever the cursor
        passed below a symbol that he wanted to "type".  The top line
        of the screen was a list of all characters - with the cursor
        continually circulating around them.  Wait till the cursor
        gets to the next letter you want, turn on alpha - bang -
        letter gets added to the pad below.  Iterate.
        (Questions:  Can humans turn on/off alpha that fast?  How long
                can you keep it up?  What is the fastest baud rate?)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 13:19:49-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: L'Engle interconnections

  That's \fascinating/; I'd heard that there were such links but not
realized there were so many of them.  In particular, I'd completely
forgotten how ARM OF THE STARFISH was tied in.  (It's definitely SF,
since the title refers to regrowth of limbs which is demonstrated in
higher animals during the story.)  I'd also forgotten the outrageous
pun; all I could recollect of the other characters was that at one
point they all \sang/ Tallis's Canon (a fairly standard round, except
that it can be done in 8 parts.  The original Thomas Tallis tended to
go overboard; his most notorious piece is "Spem in Alium", which is
scored for 8 groups each divided into 5 parts.)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 00:09:33-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: A Wrinkle in Time

The discussion of this book brought back old memories.  It was also,
as I recall the first science fiction book that I ever read.  I am not
the only person to claim this, and wonder how many others out there on
the list are in the same position?

------------------------------

Date: 22 June 1981 03:16 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: 101 Uses for a Dead Cat

The Phoenix paper recently had an item on the book and an interview
with Tim Harper, the author.  In it, he disclaims intentions of
writing a companion volume on "101 Ways to Kill a Cat".  He maintains
that there is only on way worth considering:  a .38 Special at close
range.

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1981 11:31 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Upcoming Movies

Indiana Jones (or is that Tennessee Jed?) goes looking for the place
where pi was declared to be exactly 3 in "Radius of the Lost Arc".

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1981 1403-PDT (Wednesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Virgins

I strongly suspect that a girl must have at least entered puberty to
qualify as dragon feed.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date:  1 Jul 1981 1429-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Virginity, and Celtic/Saxon vs Norman morality

If the movie is set in 6'th century England, then loss of virginity
would not be a horrendous problem.  It is primarily Norman tradition
that holds virginity so highly, and thus was not infuential in the
isle's until after 1066.  A common Celtic tradition is 'Handfasting',
which can be still found in some of the Celtic holdouts, such as the
Hebrides.  A woman who is interested in a man can Handfast him, which
means they live together as Husband and Wife.  However, if either
decide that they don't want to be married, they can simply drop the
arrangement.  If they stay together for 1 year, they are are de-facto
married, although they generally would take the vows.  There was no
stigma to wedding/loving a woman who had handfasted and lost, just as
in modern American society few men look for virgins to wed/love.

You must remember, 6'th century England was Celtic, not Norman-
Christian.  The Celts were a fun loving group, given to Pagan worship,
and modern morality applies as much to them as it does to the natives
of Borneo.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1981 04:42:22-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Dragon's diets ---

(1) Somebody here is making the fallacy of assuming a closed system.
If you make a deal with a dragon (how \do/ you bargain with a dragon,
anyway?) it only means he doesn't plunder \your/ village or kingdom.
He is obviously free to plunder \others/ as much as he chooses, hence
not starve on only two virgins a year.

(2) It strikes me that if you make a bargain with a dragon to spare
you in exchange for a virgin or two, you had better make sure you have
a ready supply of chips around.  The enterprising male who set up a
nonvirgin certification business would probably be put out of business
shortly and violently by the locals -- local taboos against premarital
sex or no.

Byron Howes -- UNC-CH

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 1981 14:00:31-PDT
From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley
Subject: Superman II history

        Someone may have already sent this in by the time this gets
sent, but there is little I enjoy more than blabbing, so here goes:
        Superman II has an interesting history, some of which is
evident if you are the kind of person who reads movie credits like I
do.  You will notice that there is a credit for "Photographed by", a
common title for cinematographer, and also one for "Director of
Photography".  These are both really the same title.  Same thing
happens with "Director of Special Effects" (or something) and "Special
Effects".
        All this occurred because the entire film was actually shot
twice with two directors, two cinematographers, etc.  Gene Hackman
actually did not agree to appear in this film, but all of his scenes
were filmed with the first director (name escapes me, temporarily).
You can actually see which parts were shot by which cinematographer,
as the one who worked first uses much softer illumination with a
warmer color temperature than the second cinematographer.
        The film was first shot, I believe, just after the release of
Superman I.  They started to work, with Gene continuing as Luthor.
Then the producers and director had a big falling out (cause unknown
to me), and the producers decided to continue anyway with a new
director.  At this time, Gene said he would not play Lex Luthor again.
Since the story rather depended on Luthor, and they had filmed most of
what they wanted him to do, they just saved the old film and edited it
in wherever needed.  I don't know why two special effects people
however.

                                                        george bray

------------------------------

Date: 06/29/81 19:55:13
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: Superman II
Re: Conversation in outer space: Superman II :: /mclure@SRI-Unix/

You obviously are NOT a real fan of DC Superman Comics.  Superboy
could always call Superdog by whistling at radio-wave frequencies
while in outer space.  Who says they cannot generate radio waves with
their incredibly powerful vocal cords?  They certainly could HEAR
them.

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1981 05:48:26-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Science in science fiction vs. fantasy

Having just seen Superman II (I tend to wait to see new films until
the madding crowds have gone on to trendier items) I feel a couple of
comments are in order on previous commentary on the film.  Hopefully
this will not itself be a spoiler.

First off, I liked the film but mostly because I am an incurable
romantic and not for any reason defensible in sf-lovers.  Second, is
that the film is clearly a fantasy, and not a piece of science
fiction.  Criticism based on its scientific flaws is a little like
criticizing a medieval fantasy based on the scientific impossibility
of dragons.  (Anyone want to start that one?)  It is a myth, set in
contemporary times.  No, it is not scientifically correct, but if that
spoils the yarn for you, then you are hoplessly imbedded in reality.

For purists on the powers of Superman based on his D.C. Comics
incarnation, remember that they too are corrupted.  The *original*
Superman could not fly...just jump very high and far.

What Superman II has done, it seems to me, is sow the seeds for a more
epic sense of the Superman legend.  We now have a tragic, possibly
fatal flaw to play with, and the sense of a personality behind the DC
Comics facade.  This isn't exactly a new trend in rewriting myths,
after all, look at the Arthur legends.

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/5/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  The reveal details
about the recent movie "Superman II".  Readers who have not seen this
movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 29 June 1981 13:12 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: The Message of Superman (spoiler)

I saw Superman II Saturday and I got really upset, and not because of
bogus powers (what's one more impossibility), visible wires, or no
climaxes.  To me the movie conveys a very disturbing set of images of
the sexes - the most troubling being the central plot feature.
Superman must give up his powers if he wants to love a woman.  Freud
would have loved it.  How often I've heard that one must choose
between potent achievement and emotional fulfillment.  And what a pair
of lovers:  Lois, who never shows any real love for Clark, wins her
(super)Man, but what is he without his powers?

Besides this, we are treated to the True Violent Revenge that any Real
Man must have (Clark vs. rude truckdriver).  What kind of role model
is this to set before kids?

Finally, I really wonder about Ursa (Latin for 'bear').  What does it
mean that the only female with much sex interest is a violent mauler?
And what ARE her politics?  She seems contemptuous of men, yet she
defers totally to Zod?  What WAS her crime, anyway?

You will say that I am too sensitive, or that I can't take a joke.  I
say that as long as men believe in Revenge, as long as women exist
only to rob men of their powers, we will continue to raise our own
Zods and Ursas here on the planet Houston.
------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 1138-THX
From: Mike Peeler <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: The Message of Superman

There actually is some reason Superman must give up his powers to love
a woman, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with psychology.  It's
purely physical.  Basically, Supey can't count on being in complete
control of his strength while in the act of love.  Larry Niven
analyzed this amusing situation in an article entitled "Man of Steel,
Woman of Kleenex", which appeared in (Help!  Larry or Fuzzy or
somebody, it's slipped my mind, where did it appear?).

The revenge bit was certainly out of character, and besides, it wasn't
done nearly as satisfyingly as it should have been.

You have it wrong about women existing only to rob men of their
powers.  It's the Reds who are plotting to destroy our purity of
essence by fluoridating our water, thereby contaminating the precious
bodily fluids which are the source of our power.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1981 13:16:49-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: SF-LOVERS: Super-nits (spoiler warning)

   WELL, as long as people are naming names about the holes in SupeII,
I have to mention my biggie too.  When Superman decides to give up his
powers for Lois, my wife and I turned to each other and wondered
wordlessly:  "How are they going to get out of there?"  (The Fortress
of Solitude, that is).  Sure enough, the very next scene, they're
pulling up to a truck stop for dinner, having apparently DRIVEN from
the Fortress.  Which really shouldn't seem too surprising in light of
the fact that, judging by the traffic through the place, the Fortress
of Solitude is about as inaccessible as K-Mart.
   All of which, in artistic charity, you might be willing to forgive
and forget except the next scene rubs it in.  How, when Superman
determines to regain his powers, does he get back?  Does Lois offer
him a lift?  Does he get a snowmobile like Lex Luthor?  No, he
hitchhikes, and walks, through the frozen north in his windbreaker and
Hush Puppies.
   Mortal indeed!

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1981 14:39 edt
From: Templeton.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: Superman 2 spoiler and answer

I too was not that pleased with the events in Superman II.  Aside from
the numerous gaps, (how did Superman and Lois get back from the pole,
anyway) I was not pleased with the two-dimensionality of the
characters involved.  Luthor had none of the admirability that his
comic counterpart had; he showed none of the cunning that could of
made him a real character when he 'betrayed' Superman just to do the
evil thing.  Perhaps this is what you get when you go for the mass
market audience, but I think they could have pleased as many people by
putting some non-standard things in the plot and characters.  It now
appears that the situation at the start and end of each Superman movie
will remain the same.  (Time goes backwards, memories erased.)  This
is the sort of thing one expects from a cheap TV series, not the
movies.

parc-marx:  A story with a duplicating machine plot can be found in
"Rouge Moon", which was written by one of the old Analog book
reviewers.  In this story, a person was duplicated so that the
duplicate could go through an almost fatal maze.  Duplicates took 50
tries to make it through.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #5
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 JUL 1981 0230-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #5
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Mon, 6 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:
               SF Radio - Hitch-Hiker's Episode Guide,
                    SF Topics - Matter duplicator,
    SF Books - Your own story & "Special Feature" & Giants' Star,
         SF Movies - "Titans" & "Dragonslayer" & "Schlock" &
                   Backward reference & Out-takes &
        "Raiders" in an alternate universe & "Raiders" reviews
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19-JUN-1981 08:26
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: CASTOR::COVERT
Subject: Hitch-Hiker's Episode Guide

THE HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, the most popular radio drama
ever broadcast by the BBC, pokes fun at contemporary social values and
the science fiction genre.

                        Suggested Listings
                        (for all 12 parts)

Part 1  Arthur Dent takes off on an epic adventure in time and space.
        Included is some helpful advice on how to see the Universe on
        less than 30 Altarian Dollars a day and an inside look at how
        Earth was unexpectedly destroyed to make way for a galactic
        freeway.

Part 2  Arthur Dent, after being saved from certain death during the
        demolition of Earth, now faces a hopeless choice between
        certain death in the vacuum of space, or finding something
        nice to say about Vogon Poetry.

Part 3  Arthur Dent, improbably rescued from doom by the Vogons, finds
        himself and his companions experiencing a mysterious missile
        attack from which they have no escape.

Part 4  Arthur Dent learns that Earth has been built by Magratheans
        and run by mice.  In the meantime, his hitchhiking companions
        are temporarily lost and confronted with a powerful and highly
        improbable force that threatens their lives.

Part 5  Arthur Dent, having been sent to find the Ultimate Question of
        Life, The Universe, and Everything, finds himself cornered by
        two Humane Cops who, it turns out, aren't really that humane.

Part 6  Arthur Dent and his companions commandeer a stolen spaceship
        and are followed by an enormous fleet of black battle
        cruisers.  Amid their escape, Dent is stranded on Earth, 2
        million years before its destruction by the Vogons.

Part 7  Zaphod, in search of a mysterious Mr. Zaniwhoop, is attacked
        and captured by the Frog Star Fighters, who carry him off to
        Frog Star, the most totally evil place in the galaxy.

Part 8  Zaphod, who escapes from the Total Perspective Vortex only
        because of his cosmic ego, attempts to decipher clues to
        rescue his companions from the past.

Part 9  Dent and Zaphod -- sho is revealed to be President of the
        Galaxy -- manage to evade the Vogons, who are out to destroy
        the last Earthling as part of a galactic power struggle.

Part 10 Landing on the planet of Brontitol, Arthur Dent encounters a
        race of bird people who worship an ancient statue of Dent
        discarding a lousy cup of tea.

Part 11 Arthur Dent solves the mystery of the planet Brontitol:  An
        uncontrolled proliferation of shoe shops apparently pushed the
        once-proud civilization into economic collapse.

Part 12 Due to a fluke, Arthur Dent loses the answer to the Ultimate
        Question and becomes a fugitive with an unknown future.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 08:39 PDT
From: Meyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #2

Does anyone know of a story I seem to remember but can't place, in
which some aliens introduce a duplicating device to Earth in order to
test Man's adaptability.  I seem to remember we adapt in a very short
time, and a rather interesting solution based on restructuring
economics takes place.  Anyone know who wrote it and where it
appeared?
                        Marc Meyer

------------------------------

Date: 5 July 1981 2239-EDT (Sunday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: design your own story

I just saw another (children's) book that has choice points at the end
of every chapter.  If you think "x" will happen, you turn to page "i"
else you turn to page "j".  The words "The End" appeared in the middle
of the book.  The title is "The Third Planet from Altair" and is by
Edward Packard.

        Lee

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1981 1831-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: Anton Chernoff at KOALA

1. In SFL Vol 3 #153, smb @ Berkeley refers to a story about a
   producer who does a real-time TV feature on an alien cat being who
   arrives on earth and starts killing natives.  The story is "Special
   Feature" by Charles V. DeVet, originally published in Astounding SF
   in May 1958 and collected in "Seven Come Infinity" edited by Groff
   Conklin, Fawcett, 1966 (where I found it).

   (Are there any estimates on how much of my memory capacity I'm
   wasting by remembering junk like this?  When I saw the plot
   outline, I walked into my library and went straight to the book
   named above, even though I haven't opened it in 5 to 10 years.)

2. In V3 #154, DP @ MIT-ML gave a review of the new James Hogan book,
   whose real title is "Giants' Star".  I agree with his feelings that
   the characterizations are a bit thin, and I also believe that the
   many coincidences in the book are a bit far out.  Also, I have a
   lot of trouble accepting the split second timing ending that saves
   the galaxy.  I don't believe in luck.  Despite this, I enjoyed the
   book.  Hogan postulates a computer technology that I think might
   exist some time in the next millenium, and his method of non-
   physical transport (I won't spoil it here) is simply neat.  Would
   other readers of the book care to comment on the problem of privacy
   and security that computers like VISAR present?

   As for the Sweet cover on the book:  At an artists' panel at last
   year's Philcon, most of the artists agreed that the author seldom
   gets review approval of the cover art.  In fact, the artists seldom
   even call the author for clarification or ideas.  (Most of them DO
   at least read (some of) the book they're illustrating.)  The artist
   who most stongly denied contacting the authors was, of course,
   Darrell Sweet.

3. I'm glad Lucas is making a series of Indy Jones movies.  At 3 years
   per movie, all he has to do is start one more series, and we'll
   have a great escapist fantasy movie every year.

   No one will ever replace actors with technology, and it will be
   quite a while before there's a display medium with the quality of
   70mm film.

4. I used to be a Harryhausen fan, but CotT (or CloT) ["Clash of the
   Titans"  -- Mike.]  was disappointing.  In many of the stop action
   scenes, the visual texture of the animation was wildly different
   from the texture of the actors and background.  I couldn't believe
   in monsters that were perfectly in focus and in bright color when
   everything else was more softly focused and had a lot of dust
   kicking up everywhere.  I was much more impressed by the really
   superb effects I saw in DRAGONSLAYER.

5. DRAGONSLAYER is the latest among the wonderful collection of June
   movies.  It's also one of the best.  Even though it smacks of
   Disney in many places, the actors and the magic are consistent and
   amusing.  I believed in the dragon - it was superbly animated by
   several different techniques.  By all means, see this one.

                                Anton Chernoff

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1981 0759-PDT (Thursday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: 2001 Parodies, continued

   In the cult film, "Schlock", the scruffy monster sees a bunch of
bananas hanging in a store window.  Suddenly (to the strains of R.
Strauss), he notices a bone on the ground, and, inspired, picks it up
and throws it at the window.  The camera tracks the bone through the
air in slow motion.
   "Schlock" is the "Airplane" of the primitive-man-terrorizes-small-
town flick.  It was John Landis' (Animal House) first film, on a
miniscule budget.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1981 1416-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX  AT VAX4 at METOO
Subject: References to THX1138

Subtle (or not so subtle) references to an author's earlier works are
hardly new to the film industry.  In Gilbert & Sullivan's The Pirates
of Penzance, or The Slave of Duty, Major General Stanley sings that he
can "whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense 'Pinafore'."  Of
course, Pirates premiered while HMS Pinafore was still on tour.

Likewise, in Utopia, Ltd., Capt. Corcoran (from HMS Pinafore)
reappears (with his K.C.B.) to explain that the Royal Navy never runs
a ship ashore.  Well... hardly ever.

(For the continuity buffs in the audience, explain how Capt. Corcoran
who was reduced to Able Seaman at the end of HMS Pinafore made it back
up to the rank of Captain AND received a KCB by the time of Utopia,
Ltd.)

------------------------------

Date:  6-Jul-81 13:42:55 PDT (Monday)
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Movie Out-takes

Out-takes collections are usually the sorts of things that the
director or editor puts together on his own time, and for his own
amusement.  Thus, you're not likely to see them except at special
screenings that the crew/cast/studio is connected with.

I recently saw a collection of stop-motion animation out-takes from
"Caveman", which most people seem to think has better effects than
CloT ("Clash of the Titans").

--Bruce
------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1981 1613-PDT (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: outtakes

The primary reason you don't see more outtakes floating around is that
most of them are BORING.  It doesn't take long before the novelty of
watching some lamebrained "talent" blow his lines over and over again
starts to wear a bit thin.  Sometimes twenty or thirty takes can go by
just to get one goddamn line out (once you start laughing, you can't
stop...)

In other words, most "bloopers" are boring and mundane.  The really
good ones (the ones people would WANT to see), tend to be rather
obscene and often in terrible taste -- studios are NOT anxious to have
such material reach the public (in fact, action was taken by some of
the old Star Trek gang to try ban showings of the Trek bloopers, of
which there are at least three separate versions.)

Most fun "blooper reels" have been highly and creatively edited.  This
takes a bit of work, since normally these little segments would never
have been sync'd up with audio or otherwise made "showable" on other
than a nice, silent, Movieola.  Alot of goofs are also never printed,
as you might imagine.

I have a fair number of "creative" outtakes available to me in one
form or another -- including a rare, tightly edited set of "The
Waltons" bloopers!  Talk about bizarre...  Here at home, I have some
very old outtakes, including some involving old CBS news commentators
and other amusing subjects...

--Lauren--

P.S.  I have been tempted at times to hold a "video festival" where I
could show some of these outtakes and other miscellaneous video
snippets that I and various other L.A. types have collected over the
years, but I just don't have the facilities for dealing with large (or
even small) numbers of people.  If someone in the L.A. area has a nice
auditorium with a GOOD projection TV system, be sure to let me know...

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 1449-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: RotLA in alternate universes

Actually, Harrison Ford has signed to play the great-grandson of Bilbo
Baggins as he leads a band to scour the Earth of all remains of the
Third Age.  It's called Raiders of the Last Orc.

        Mike

------------------------------
Date: 5 Jul 1981 2332-PDT
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Raiders Resistance League

Stuart Byron, one of the film critics (actually a film industry
reporter) for the \Village Voice/ writes in the June 24-30 issue about
being a "charter member of the Raiders Resistance League (a group that
also includes Carrie Rickey of the \Voice/, Pauline Kael of \The New
Yorker/ Jonathan Rosenbaum of the \Soho News/, Stephen Shaefer of
\US/, Stephen Harvey of \Inquiry/ and George Morris of \The Chicago
Reader/..."  These critics' basic complaints seem to center on the
simplicity of the characterizations and of the simple-minded treatment
of many issues the film raises.  I think that these critics (like the
critic from the St. Louis paper) are scrutinizing the film too
closely.  I believe that escapist entertainment, almost by definition,
cannot be judged by the same standards as one would judge more serious
fare.  The simplistic outlook of world politics as displayed by RotLA
is part and parcel of the escapist appeal of the film--it yearns for
more simpler days when the good guys were the USA and the bay guys
were the Germans and we were fighting for good and they for evil.
Sure it is childish but if one cannot regress to one's childhood in an
escapist film, where can one?  I think these people should stop
bitching about the plot and just appreciate the slickness and
craftmanship for its own sake...this film is fun and should be judged
on that level alone.  A much more valid criticism is brought out in
the remainder of the Byron article in the \Voice/.  He points out that
putting RotLA on the cover of \Time/ and \Newsweek/ can have grave
implications in Hollywood for the future of serious filmmakers.
Because the newsweeklies are the closest thing to a national newspaper
in the US, their opinion carries a great deal of weight.  When they
put authors on the cover, they don't use popularity as their
guide--why so with movies?  By jumping on the bandwagon with lavish
critical praise for escapist fare like RotLA they are giving Hollywood
the message that these types of movies are the way to go...I think we
may be caught in a flood of such movies for a long time to come, to
the exclusion of more serious films...
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 6 Jul 1981 14:18-PDT
From: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Review of Rotla by David Armstrong

Armstrong's review is similar to several others I have read about
ROTLA, SW IV and other movies of their ilk.

The party line which these reviews espouse is similar to:

                I'm sophisticated.  I'm more sophisticated than most
        of you out there because, after all, I'm a movie reviewer and
        that means I know a lot about life.

                Life is hell.  There is war and pestilence and America
        is all screwed up.  Movies which say so are relevant.  Movies
        which don't say so are irrelevant.  Movies that are merely fun
        are therefore irrelevant and unnecessary and shouldn't exist.
        At best, such movies are for children.

                True movies espouse the appropriate and approved
        social philosophy.  All other types of movies should be
        discouraged.

The best counterargument to this nonsense is 1) the Russian film
industry and 2) an animated short from Czechoslovakia called "Optimist
Pessimist" which is a hilarious discussion of social responsibility in
film vs. entertainment made by film makers who know.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #6
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 JUL 1981 0654-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #6
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Tue, 7 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:
         Administrivia - "Down in Flames" ready for FTP'ing,
           SF Movies - "Raiders" quirk & "Raiders" reviews,
  SF Books - Niven Superman reference & Rogue Moon & Edmund Cooper &
                  Sirens of Titan & Monstrous Races
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 June 1981 21:16-EDT
From: Alyson L. Abramowitz <ALA at MIT-AI>
Subject: Down In Flames

A while back I mentioned the possibility of being able to distribute
the Niven article "Down In Flames" in SF-LOVERS.  It is now available.

As some of you might remember, "Down In Flames" is an article about
the end of Known Space.  It was originally published in Trumpet #10 by
Alex Eisenstein and Tom Reamy.  It was eventually revised and has
recently been published in the program book of the Australian
Convention NUCON (where Larry was the Guest of Honor).

If you've never read the Known Space Series, looking at "Down In
Flames" will probably not give away anything:  you're unlikely to
understand it at all!  If you've not read RINGWORLD and some of the
other major books in the Known Space Series, you might want to
consider this a Spoiler Warning, however.  This article gives away
alot of the suspense from those novels/stories if you already have a
feel for the series.

I'd like to thank a number of people who made distributing this
article possible.  Dick Smith for providing the original pointer to
the article and getting permission for us to use the article.  Paul
Karger for helping to proofread my typing.  Marilyn "Fuzzy Pink" Niven
for passing electronic mail to Larry for me.  And, most of all, Larry
Niven for allowing us his kind permission to distribute the article
through SF-LOVERS.

I'll let Mike Peeler put the files on the various systems where "Down
in Flames" is available here:


Site            Filename

MIT-AI          AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS DIFLAM
CMU-10A         TEMP:DIFLAM.TXT[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC       [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Niven
MIT-Multics     >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>down-in-flames.text
SU-AI           DIFLAM.SFL[T,DON]
DEC VAX/PDP-11  KIRK::db1:[abramowit.sf]diflame.txt
DEC TOPS-20     KL2137::FTN20:<SF>DIFLAM.TXT

[Note: You can TYPE or FTP a file from SU-AI without an account.]


Enjoy!

                Best,
                Alyson

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 1221-EDT
From: G.BLIC at MIT-EECS
Subject: Raiders Quirk (I hope it isn't a spoiler)


        There is a peculiar incident which I noticed when I watched
        I****** J**** threaten the bad guy with the Ba*oo** in the
        des**t.  When the bad guy turns and talks to I****** (oops,
        too many characters), a little speck closely resembling a fly
        appears on the bad guy's chin, crawls up onto his lower lip
        and (oh, how much like Renfield) into his mouth !!?!!

        Now, was that a product of a speck on the film?
                                   or the movie screen?
                                      or an actual fly?

        A couple of my friends noted this as well, so it's not my
        imagination.  This thing has been bugging me ever since...
        (sorry!)

                                                Arthur


        The bad guy is the enemy archaeologist, by the way.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 00:57:46-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Reviews of Raiders, in all seriousness

   Whoever was flaming that criticism of Raiders stems from social
consciousness on the part of the critic simply has their head in the
sand regarding film criticism today.
   There is good trash and bad trash.  It IS possible, I think, to
consider Raiders as imperfect trash without once thinking about social
issues.  Certainly Pauline Kael has a fine eye for good trash when it
comes along, and she raises a number of good points about Raiders
which have little or nothing to do with the social stance of the
film--the best being the question:  When will George Lucas, who is
unanimously regarded as one of the most capable, devoted men ever to
run a major film operation, start doing something BESIDES adolescent
flashbacks?  This from one who considered The Empire Strikes Back as
one of the two finest American films of last year.
   And for what it's worth, I like trash, too, as my sometimes
incredulous friends will tell you.  Yet I too left Raiders after two
hours of excitement feeling as if I'd eaten two pounds of popcorn.
All very nice, but something missing...

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 03:20-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Niven Superman reference

Sure, I'm a compulsive reference corrector, so here goes:

In SFL V4#4, Mike Peeler mentions a Larry Niven essay called "Man of
Steel, Woman of Kleenex" which discusses Supey's inability to, er,
make it.  If you're interested, you'll find it in the collection "All
the Myriad Ways" which seems to be a Ballantine paperback (1971).  I
believe it's still in print.

     dick smith


[Thanks also to V. Ellen Golden (Ellen at MIT-MC) and DEKLEER at
PARC-MAXC for naming this one.  Readers please note that although my
original query was in a spoiler, this response does not itself
constitute one.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 03:27-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Reference Compulsive

In SFL V4#3, Templeton mentions the excellent story (later extended to
novel length) by the fine but relatively unknown writer Algis Budrys.
Since A. J. is a fellow resident of exciting Evanston, Illinois, I
shouldn't pass up a chance to give him a plug.

My paperback copy of "Rogue Moon" (novel) is a 1960 GoldMedal/Fawcett
book, which won't help you find it at all.  The story version has been
anthologised several times, but I can't think of just where right now.

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 01:50 edt
From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Query: Cooper's works

        At the heyday of my enthusiasm for Science Fiction, sometime
around 8th grade, one of my favorite authors, at least from the
**wonderful** selection at my pubilc library, was Edmund Cooper.  I
only read 3 or 4 books by him, and I never was able to find out if he
wrote any others.  Since his name was never mentioned here I assume he
was fairly unpopular, or unknown.  Now I freely admit that my taste as
an eighth grader was questionable (to say the least), but I am still
curious, has any one else heard of him?  Could somone get me a list of
his books?  Did anyone else like him?
        (The four titles I remember were:  "All Fools Day", "The
Overman Culture", "Sea Horse in the Sky", "Five to Twelve")
        Most of his stuff dealt with human beings dealing with a
post-major-disaster, collapse-of-civilization situation.
        Thank you,
        - Mike

------------------------------

Date:  2 Jul 1981 1037-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Space barnacles and a robot dog

In "Sirens of Titan," former sci-fi writer Kurt Vonnegut describes
some of the most adorable vacuum barnacles in the annals of sci-fi.
Deep in the caverns of Mercury, which extend miles below the surface
of the planet's alternately baking and freezing surface, live
"Harmoniums."  If I remember correctly, these flat, translucent and
triangular little creatures cling to the cave walls and survive solely
on vibration.  Mercury is an ideal home because the extremes of
surface temperatures cause terrific stresses that make the planet
ring, at a very low frequency, like an orbiting bell.  The harmoniums
sing in harmony with the planet's ringing, and they take turns singing
the only two lyrics they know:  "Here I am, Here I am," to which they
answer, "So glad you are, So glad you are."

Woody Allen took a stab at sci-fi in his movie "Sleeper," which
featured Ralph the dog, Allen's robot pet.  "Bark! Bark! Hello, my
name is Ralph," the dog said.  Allen's only comment:  "Is he house
broken, or does he leave little batteries on the carpet?"

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1981 0303-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Monstrous Races

                         By JOHN LEONARD
                 c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service

  THE MONSTROUS RACES IN MEDIEVAL ART AND THOUGHT. By John Block
  Friedman. Illustrated. 268 pages. Harvard. $20.

    Whether we read Homer or Aristotle or Pliny or St. Augustine or
"Beowulf" or Jonathan Swift, the monsters are always with us, in the
craters of the imagination.  Pliny was reasonably comprehensive.
Monsters, beyond the edge of the civilized world, might be one-eyed
giants or one-breasted Amazons or Pygmies riding into battle on the
backs of cranes.  They might be bearded ladies or naked wise men or
headless cannibals.  They might possess the genitals of both sexes, a
single foot, two feet turned backwards, eight fingers, horses' hooves,
eyes on their shoulders, a lower lip large enough to use as an
umbrella or ears so big that one could fly away by flapping them.
They were sometimes noseless, sometimes speechless sometimes
"hole-creepers," sometimes "straw-drinkers," sometimes "apple-
smellers" and - surprisingly often - they were to be found with the
head of a dog.
    Who needs these monsters?  Apparently we all do.  Why?  John Block
Friedman, a professor of English at the University of Illinois and
author previously of "Orpheus in the Middle Ages," speaks of a
"psychological urge" but doesn't much pursue it.  His book, by design,
is innocent of Freud.  He speaks also of "an aesthetic need," and
quotes the "Summa Theologica" of Alexander of Hales:  "So, just as
beauty of language is achieved by a contrast of opposites, the beauty
of the world is built up by a kind of rhetoric, not of words but of
things, which employes the contrast of opposates."
    But Friedman's principal business is to examine how Western Europe
in the Middle Ages "moralized" Pliny's monsters, in bestiaries,
spiritual encyclopedias, maps, illustrated manuscripts and other
homiletic printouts.  The medieval mind wanted to know what God was up
to.  Was He just playing around, or sending a message?  Were monsters
a kind of divine dabbling, a premonition of disaster, a legacy of Cain
and Ham, or fearsome competition?  It didn't matter to the medieval
mind that the Crusaders, the missionaries and Marco Polo on leaving
home failed to find any of what Pliny had reported three and one-half
centuries after Aristotle had theorized about it.
    The medieval mind needed monsters, sometimes to frighten the
children, sometimes to congratulateitself and sometimes to dream on.
The dream could be nostalgic:  once upon a prelapsarian time, the
savages were noble:  now everything is more difficult.  Or the dream
could be utopian:  we will forge our innocence by consulting the
examples of God's diversity.  What began as a nightmare became, by the
16th century, almost cute in Gothic art, with its cuddlesome
gargoyles.
    Friedman is a graceful and witty writer.  He doesn't claim too
much, but he implies in excess.  To follow his argument is to
understand the role of the Ethiopian - as black as sin, of course - in
justifying slavery.  It is also to appreciate the psychological
conditioning that made imperialism possible; the "monstrous races"
after all, had to be domesticated, and Spain was perfectly prepared to
do so in the New World.  He aquaints us with "zone thought":  the
equatorial belt was too hot for civilization, and the polar regions
too cold.  Everybody outside the temperate zones was either a sloth or
a savage.
    We learn about globes, pelicans, unicorns and the myth-making
aspect of diet.  (When we call the French "frogs" and the Germans
"krauts," we're saying you are what you eat.)  We stare back at
Jerusalem as if it were the eye of the world.  We come to understand
the common root, almost pornographic, of Christian martyrology and
monster fables.  Why was the existence of a city so important to the
idea of civilization?  Because, in a city, there was law.  By
definition, those outside the city were monsters.  One would like to
have a long talk with Grendel, at least the Grendel about whom John
Gardner has novelized.
    We invent our monsters, so that they can do things we aren't
permitted to do.  Why are the monsters we invent so often naked?  Why
do they raise such perplexing problems of female sexuality?  How did
the Jew become a "Dog's Head"?  Who says Ham was black?  How come the
monstrous "wife-givers" were so unpopular in what amounts to a sort of
travel-and-romance literature of the Middle Ages, a Gothic novel?
    Friedman stops short at "romantic primitivism."  The Renaissance
will have its own ideas.  I could go on much longer in his company.
What about the alchemists and their "fetation" of monsters?  For that
matter, what about our genetic engineers today?  If the eye of the
world is no longer Jerusalem or Rome, if instead it is in Washington
or Moscow, which dreams cloud it, and who are the monsters? Friedman
also disdains the "more speculative areas of oral narrative and folk
tale," not to mention 19th-century German romanticism, which makes me
sad.  What about Rousseau and Chateaubriand?  What about monster
movies?  Comic books and science fiction?  What about fascism?  What
about the existential "other"?  What about the id?
    But every book has to stop.  Many of Friedman's loose ends are
tied into a psychoanalytical knot by Leslie Fiedler in "Freaks."  What
he has given us, for which I am grateful, is first-class intellectual
history without a smirk or a cheap shot.  We just happen to live in
the bestiary.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #7
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 JUL 1981 0955-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #7
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Wed, 8 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:
             Administrivia - Down in Flames at Berkeley,
      SF Books - Mage query & Little bodies & Replicated self &
                    Edmund Cooper & Wells' Index,
      SF Movies - "Raiders" reviews, Spoiler - "Raiders" trivia
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 12:31:06-PDT
From: Cory.kalash at Berkeley
Subject: Down in Flames

I have ftp'ed Down in Flames to ~ingres/dif on Ernie, and to
~kalash/dif on Cory for those of you without access to the Arpa net.
                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 07/07/81 14:07:43
From: DGSHAP@MIT-AI
Subject: the mage query

Seeing as how I have been addressed directly, I ought to respond.
What I was after was a listing of all the heavy magic users (meaning
potent or powerful individuals) in the literature regardless of the
classification of the work in which they appeared (sf or fantasy,
short story or novel).  I was specifically interested in major
characters; a geneology of MUs is more interesting if the characters
are well developed.
        However, I am going to be off the net for some time (moving to
California, leaving the folds of graduate school) so if anyone else
out there would like to take up the query, I'll leave it at that.

        Dan Shapiro

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 12:11 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: companion volume

Contrary to your [Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics] information, I hear
there WILL be a companion volume to "101 Things to Do With A Dead
Cat".  It's going to be called "101 Delicious Meals To Prepare From A
Child's Corpse."  No doubt it will appeal to the same audience.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 12:32:05 EDT (Tuesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: personal identity

On the subject of personal identity & matter duplicators:

This is a well-researched area of philosophy, dating back at least to
John Locke's \Treatise Concerning Human Understanding/.  If you want
an entertaining introduction to the topic, look at the article "Where
Am I?" in Dan Dennett's \Brainstorms/.  It is non-technical, but does
a good job of introducing the major theories of what constitutes a
personal identity.

Another book on the subject, consisting of readings from philosophers
who have examined the topic, is \Personal Identity/, edited by John
Perry (U. California Press).

Dennett's book is probably more interesting to the general
(computer-science) reader, as he also delves into questions like,
"What philosophers have to learn from Artificial Intelligence," and
other interesting topics in the philosophy of mind.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 10:50:10-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: duplicators

    There are a number of stories covering the disruptive effects of
duplicators.  A short one in which the D is specifically introduced by
aliens is "Business, as Usual, During Alterations" by Ralph Williams
(first pub 7/58 ASTOUNDING [cf Metcalf]; repub, 100 YEARS OF SF
(Knight), PROLOGUE TO ANALOG (Campbell), TOMORROW, INC. (Greenberg &
Olander) [cf Contento]).
    BaUDA specifically notes that duplicating living creatures is not
possible.  In Damon Knight's A FOR ANYTHING, it is possible, with
unfortunate results (a highly feudal society, hordes of identical
servants who are disposed of as soon as they start aging (part of the
technology is the ability to get an intermediate stage in the
duplication, which stage does not age and can be reconstituted at any
time), etc.).
    In THE DUPLICATED MAN, Blish and Lowndes describe a machine which
specifically copies people---up to five copies at once.  The problem
is that each copy is the result of another human being, suitably
wired, scanning the duplicatee; as a result, each copy shows the
effects of having been filtered through some other individual's
perceptions.

  addendum:  indices.  Some indexes which can be invaluable to anyone
trying to keep track of stories:
  Donald Day, index to magazines 1926-50
  Norman Metcalf, index to magazines 1951-65
  Erwin S. Strauss, "   "       "       " ("the MITSFS index")
  NESFA, indexes to magazines post-65 (in several pieces; later
editions include original anthologies)
  TWACI press, index to magazines 1980 (lots of info, but reflects
prejudices of indexer (e.g., doesn't cover OMNI))
  William Contento, index to book publication (lists all short stories
appearing in original and reprint anthologies ~1947-1977)
  Contento is associated with the University of Florida; there may be
a few copies of the Strauss index still available from NESFA.  For
people in the greater Boston area, all of these are available, along
with some more abstruse titles (index to pseudonyms??) at the MITSFS.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 13:51:59-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Edmund Cooper

   The chief problem I have reading Cooper's books from a past-eighth-
grade perspective (I recall enjoying them then, too, since SF Book
Club carried several of them) is that he basically wrote the same
story over and over again.  (FIVE TO TWELVE is slightly different but
really terribly done.)  The one really exceptional Cooper is CLOUD
WALKER, which is post-disaster with a Luddite element controlling
England.  Today it reads as just slightly adolescent (rebellion
against authority is great, unthinking denial of technology is the
behavior of the lunatic fringe) but there's still quite a good story
in it---even though it follows a pattern that really aggravates me,
using the last few pages to cover increasingly large leaps in the life
of the lead; in this case there's some meat in those leaps.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 1954-EDT
From: Rob Stanzel <G.ROB at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Edmund Cooper [Ugh...]

I bought & read only one novel by Cooper, "Transit."  On a macro
level, the plot had several people kidnapped from Earth and
transported to a deserted planet, where they are studied for survival
traits by aliens.

I don't know if it's representative of his other "work," but stay
away!  Trite plot, crummy characterization...in short, a hack novel.
Sorry, Mike.
                -Rob

------------------------------

Date:  7 Jul 1981 at 2354-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^ EDMUND COOPER (and a plug for Wells' INDEX) ^^^^^^^^^^^^

In answer to the query in SFL IV: #6...

THE SCIENCE FICTION & HEROIC FANTASY AUTHOR INDEX compiled by Stuart
W. Wells III and published by Purple Unicorn Books, Duluth, Minn.,
lists the following as having been published in the U.S. (Cooper is
British) up thru about mid-1978--

   ALL FOOLS' DAY               NEWS FROM ELSEWHERE
   THE CLOUD WALKER             THE OVERMAN CULTURE
   DEADLY IMAGE                 PRISONER OF FIRE
   A FAR SUNSET                 SEAHORSE IN THE SKY
   FIVE TO TWELVE               SEED OF LIGHT
   THE FIREBIRD                 THE SLAVES OF HEAVEN
   GENDER GENOCIDE              THE TENTH PLANET
   KRONK                        TOMORROW'S GIFT
   THE LAST CONTINENT           TRANSIT

Also, under the pen-name "Richard Avery", the "Expendibles" series:

   THE DEATH WORMS OF KRATOS    THE RINGS OF TANTALUS
   THE WARGAMES OF ZELOS        THE VENOM OF ARGUS

-----

Wells' index is one of my most useful SF reference books.  I've been
looking forward to a new edition, hopefully at 5 year intervals, but
the proprietor of the local SF bookstore says it didn't sell well
enough to get updated editions.  If you can fork up $10 for a worthy
cause <Don't Leave It To The Publish-Or-Perish-Motivated Academics,
Support GOOD Fan-Produced Reference Material>, do invest in this book.
It's not perfect (e.g., some of Mack Reynolds' related titles have not
been recognized as series), but it's darn good and WORTH the money.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 11:15:40-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: reviews

   There's a sliver of truth in that, hidden under a mountain of
flame.  Even Stanley Kaufman (against whom I was railing in lastish)
liked AIRPLANE.  (Although you could argue that that's as much satire
as escapism, mike's flame doesn't seem to allow room for anything that
can be laughed at.)  Armstrong (as quoted) makes a particularly
legitimate point in the question of how the [natives] are treated;
their behavior seems directly borrowed from 19th-century British
mythology, except that they don't salaam when Jones starts overturning
market baskets left and right in the search for Marian.
   I should also point out that Czech filmmakers, judging by their
products, have a finer sense of the balance between reality and
imagination/escapism; certainly the average Czech isn't afflicted with
the delusions of grandeur that one can see in the average American's
reaction to the hostages, Reagan, or anyone whose behavior threatens
our top-dog status.
   Some of you may have heard Ben Bova say (during his tenure at
ANALOG) that his audience was completely separate from the audience
for THE NEW YORKER.  There was some indignation in active Boston
fandom at this remark, which was simply wrong in context, but there is
in his remark a grain of truth:  readers of TNY are just as far
out-of-synch with the rest of the country as readers of SF, but in a
different direction.  Naturally TNY reviewers will reflect this
difference; it's a mistake to castigate them for it.
   I suppose it depends to some extent on your individual lifestyle;
if you accept absolutely the dictum that the unexamined life is not
worth living, you will necessarily find all sorts of dark, irrational
bases for your responses to humor and escapism.
------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/8/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details about the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 1042-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: RotLA bugs & Mr. Ford's standin -- !!spoiler!!

I too was upset by the fly on the evil archeologist's lip during the
dare-in-the-desert scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark," although the
fly did indeed fly away -- it did not crawl into his mouth.  No one
here can recall his name, which is odd because he is such a central
character.  Does anyone out there remember the name -- and correct
spelling -- of Indy's foil?

Of course, any movie relying so heavily on special/hazardous effects
is prone to bugs.  Has anyone mentioned the undulating bedrock?  I
noticed that while Indy hangs from the vine during the escape from the
cave, the canvas-and-rubber mock rock waves like a heavy carpet
hanging on a line.

By the way, Jack Dearlove was Mr. Ford's standin, although there is no
way to tell how often Dearlove stood in.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office


[At one point Indy realizes that the man going by "Beloshe" is the
same man he once knew as "Bellock".  I believe I have seen the name in
print as "Belloq", corresponding to the latter pronunciation.  --Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1981 15:54:59-PDT
From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark.  (the crate markings)

        I went to see RotLA (the second time) with a friend of mine
who likes to figure out rational, logical reasons for events in films,
especially ones with religious scenes like the Ark destroying the
Nazis.  We wondered about the Ark destroying the markings, as
obviously many SFL readers did.  I have seen a lot of talk about this
recently, but all anyone has said is WHAT happened, not why.
        It is obvious that the Ark somehow burned all the Nazi
insignia off the crate, but why?  If God didn't like the Ark being
crated, it doesn't seem too hard for `him' to have destroyed the
crate, or even the whole ship.  And why did the rats in the ship's
hold die?
        If anyone has a good explanation, I'd like to see it.

                                                Sincerely,
                                                George Bray.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1981 18:19:08-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RotLA ending (cont. spoilers)

   That the Germans were <laughing> at the Ark would be trivial,
according to most Biblical sources, next to the simple fact that the
Ark was opened by someone (i.e., the French archeologist) who was
certainly not a Levite.  (I don't think the Germans would have been
dealing with someone who was an acknowledged descendant of the
hereditary caste of Jewish [priests].)  In this light, the Ark's
burning off the Wehrmacht insignia is hardly "political" (though it
might have been calculated to draw cheers from an original 30's
audience); what's surprising is that Ark tolerated at all the
ownership claims of a party based on (among other things)
antiSemitism.  (Of course, if the Ark had started showing its power
then we might have had a much shorter movie.)
   Other note:  at least one person has claimed to me that other boxes
in the warehouse in which the Ark is stored at the very end of the
movie have markings on them suggesting that they contain the Shroud of
Turin, the True Cross, etc.  Did anyone else notice this?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 1834-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Subject: Comments on "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

In SFL V3, Issue 159, DYER-BENNET said of "Raiders of the Lost Ark":
"..was an insult to my intelligence.  The major technique for carrying
the plot forward seemed to be the "Hackwriter's Gambit":  Put the hero
in an impossible situation, then cut to the beginning of the next
action sequence without bothering to indicate how he escaped."  Given
this description, I can only conclude that DYER-BENNET wandered into
the wrong theatre, and actually saw "Superman II" instead.

I can think of only once case in "Raiders" where the film did not
explicitly show how Indy got out of a mess, and that was at the very
end, where, after the big climactic scene on the Nazi island, I
wondered "How did he get off the island?"  It didn't really matter,
since that was essentially the end of the movies, but surely not EVERY
German at the island base attended the opening of the Ark?

On another "Raiders" subject, Alan Katz wondered, as did I, how the
Nazis got a copy of the headpiece.  Like Alan, I assumed that they got
it from the burn mark on the interrogator's hand, but upon my second
viewing, it seemed to me that the marks had almost no detail;
certainly not enough to decipher ancient words.  However, that's the
only plausible explanation, so I will "suspend my disbelief".

Next, HEDRICK responded to DYER-BENNET's question about "taking back
the Commandments" by suggesting that that could have been where the
box became charred in the ship.  Not at all; notice that what the
charring accomplished was to obliterate the Nazi swastika, an icon,
which was not to be tolerated.  My best interpretation of the end
scene is that God wanted to make sure that lid was on TIGHT!

                                Steve Lionel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #8
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 JUL 1981 1525-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #8
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thu, 9 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Distribution problems,
               SF Books - 1981 Locus Poll & Timescape,
                  SF Topics - Personal duplication,
           SF Movies - Alternate "Raiders" & Rader's suit,
                      Spoiler - "Raiders" events
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 81 1200-EDT
From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI
Subject: Administrivia - Distribution problems

A moment for explanation with Mike's permission:

This is the first issue to be distributed since Wednesday.  Early
Thursday evening, the air conditioners serving our computers failed.
Our computers were forced to shut down from Thursday evening until
Friday evening.  Now that we are back up and operating normally,
we will resume publication.  Thank you for your patience and for
your inquiries.
                                                            -- RDD

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 81 16:59-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-Unix
Subject: 1981 Locus poll results

Best Science Fiction novel
  1) THE SNOW QUEEN, Joan D. Vinge
  2) BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON, Frederik Pohl
  3) THE RINGWORLD ENGINEERS, Larry Niven

Best Fantasy novel
  1) LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE, Robert Silverberg
  2) THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, Gene Wolfe
  3) THE WOUNDED LAND, Stephen R. Donaldson

Best first novel
  1) DRAGON'S EGG, Robert L. Forward
  2) THE ORPHAN, Robert Stallman
  3) SUNDIVER, David Brin

Best novella
  1) "Nightflyers", George R. R. Martin, (Analog -- April)
  2) THE PATCHWORK GIRL, Larry Niven
  3) "The Web of the Magi", Richard Cowper, (F&SF -- June)

Best novelette
  1) "The Brave Little Toaster", Thomas Disch, (F&SF -- August)
  2) "Beatnik Bayou", John Varley, (NEW VOICES III)
  3) "The Way Station", Stephen King, (F&SF -- April)

Best short story
  1) "Grotto of the Dancing Deer", Clifford Simak, (Analog -- April)
  2) "Bug House", Lisa Tuttle, (F&SF -- June)
  3) "Our Lady of the Sauropods", Robert Silverberg, (Omni -- Sept)

Best anthology
  1) THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION: A 30 YEAR
          RETROSPECTIVE, Ferman, ed.
  2) THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #9, Terry Carr, ed.
  3) TALES OF THE VULGAR UNICORN, Asprin, ed.

Best single author collection
  1) THE BARBIE MURDERS, John Varley
  2) SHATTERDAY, Harlan Ellison
  3) THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT, Roger Zelazny

Best related nonfiction book
  1) IN JOY STILL FELT: THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ISAAC ASIMOV, 1954-1978
  2) DREAM MAKERS, Charles Platt
  3) COSMOS, Carl Sagan

Best artist
  1) Michael Whelan
  2) Don Maitz
  3) Boris Vallejo

Best magazine/fanzine
  1) F&SF
  2) Locus
  3) Analog

Best book publisher
  1) Ballantine/Del Rey
  2) Ace
  3) Pocket/Simon & Schuster

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 09:16:50-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Timescape

Like Will Martin, I'm in the middle of "Timescape", and like him, I'm
not too impressed with it.  My reasons, however, are totally diff-
erent:  rather than objecting to the presence of the characterization,
I object to how poorly it was done.

Consider:  we have a stereotypical Eastern Jewish scientist/social
misfit, a "California girl" WASP, an English upper-class twit, an
English housewife twit, etc., and they're all stereotypes.  Not only
that, but some of the stereotyped characters spend time bemoaning how
stereotypically other characters are behaving!  And so far at least,
the sole purpose of (the non-historical) women seems to be as sex
objects for the men in the story.  I don't want to start the whole
debate from "Outlands" again, but I would expect that only 20 years
from now, there would be at least SOME remnants of the philosophies of
the women's movement.  (I could be wrong -- I am only a third of the
way through -- and there is a beautiful (of course) woman with a Ph.D.
in math (which shocked her admirer, who expected it to be in
philosophy or some such); so far, though, all she's done is
proposition said admirer while her husband was out of the room.)

The other point Will raised is that characters get in the way of SF
stories.  Dunno about you, but to me at least, that's the best way to
get involved in a story.  I'm the sort of person who can't study a
chess position and really understand it; I have to see it develop
through the course of the game; the process itself carries a lot of
information.  Similarly, a static picture of a society isn't nearly as
comprehensible to me as one whose interactions I've seen and been
abosrbed in.  Yes, there are other ways besides characterization to do
this, but more difficult, as a rule.  The other tactics commonly used
in SF are fast-moving plots and brilliant concepts.  Well, Benford's
plot isn't that fast-moving -- he's trying to use characterization
instead (besides, the characters keep lecturing each other about
quantum mechanics -- which is better than reciting their vitae, though
not by much).  Nor is the concept of the book that new -- Niven's
essay on time travel (in "All the Myriad Ways", which also contains
his essay on Superman's sex life) talks about using tachyons.  What IS
new, at least to my knowledge, is the attempt to explain grandfather
paradoxes in light of modern physics.  I do wish I knew which of the
physics he presents is accepted, which is a current theory, and which
is sheer speculation.

One other interesting technique that Benford uses is his free mixing
of historical and fictional characters.  For example, one of his
heroes discusses his theories with Freeman Dyson.  As I noted (and
complained about) earlier, much historical fiction does the same
thing; it is (of necessity!) rather uncommon in science fiction.  I'm
not at all sure I like it here, especially given the mixture of
factual and fictional physics.

I'll send in an update on this review when I finish the book; it may
be that Benford rectifies many of these flaws.

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1981 00:34-EDT
From: David Vinayak Wallace <GUMBY at MIT-AI>
Subject: personal duplication

Fred Pohl wrote a neat story about a town reproduced by an advertising
agency to do product testing...  But you'll have to read it for the
ending.  It was in the Del Rey \Best of../ edited by Lester himself, I
believe.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1981 00:08 PDT
From: Kaehler at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #7

Matter Duplicators --

Sociobiology (an offshoot of Evolution theory) has very definite
things to say about matter duplication!  The basic idea is that each
set of genes is striving to produce copies of itself and have them
survive long into the future.  (See the book, The Selfish Gene by ??).
Animals exhibit altruism in proportion to the fraction of genes they
share with the animal they are helping.  This is embodied in the
saying, "I'll gladly die to save two brothers or four cousins".

It seems to me that a person coming out of a matter duplicator,
knowing that he is likely to die, will be glad to sacrifice himself so
that his "real self" will win the war.  Who can you trust better than
yourself?  Who would you rather be working for?  What employer or
general ever had your own (long range) interests more at heart?

This is a serious biological argument.  For example, why is there
sexual reproduction?  What animal in her right mind would allow half
the genes of her offspring to be replaced with the genes of a perfect
stranger?  A major controversy is raging about this very subject.
Unisexual species of fish and lizards which reproduce by
parthenogensis are being studied to see if they have a competetive
advantage.  (No need to feed non-reproducing males).  Aphids are the
prime example of a species which uses both strategies.  During the
Spring and Summer, there are only females who lay only fertile female
eggs.  The population rises rapidly while the eating is good.  In the
Fall, the females produce both males and females, who mate and lay
eggs for the winter.  The advantage of sexual reproduction is
recombination of traits, which is good for changing conditions.  We
have sacrificed half of our relatedness to our children just to get
rapid adaptation to changing environment.  (A tremendous endorsement
of the idea that the world will continue to change...)

An interesting novel might be a struggle between a group that
reproduced itself exactly (via cloning, say), and a group that
continued with sexual reproduction because they believed that they
might not be the best adapted beings.  (This novel had better cover a
large number of generations to be more than a vignette).

Of course in humans, genetic evolution has been greatly overshadowed
by the evolution of our body of knowledge (the technical term, I
believe, is "culture" including "science" and "technology").  Anyone
care to point out examples of "clone minded" culture versus
"recombinate" culture?                                     Ted Kaehler

------------------------------

Date: 8 July 1981 10:47 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: alternate RotLA

The Covenant Box is found to contain an imaging device that uses
microwaves, thus it can work even at night.  Indiana Jones brings it
to England for the Battle of Britain, where the warning it gives of
nighttime Nazi attacks saves the day, in "Radars of the Luft Dark".
------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 2255-PDT (Wednesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Did Raiders Raid Rader?

AM-Rader's Ark,460
Former Church of God Treasurer Says Hit Movie Idea was Stolen
By BRIAN R. BLAND
Associated Press Writer
    LOS ANGELES (AP) - Stanley Rader, the former treasurer of the
Worldwide Church of God, filed a $100 million lawsuit Wednesday
claiming that the idea for the hit movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" was
stolen from him and a friend.
    In the suit filed in Superior Court against "Raiders" producer
George Lucas and director Steven Spielberg and others, Rader claims
archaeologist Robert Lawrence Kuhn wrote a movie treatment several
years ago and later reworked it into a screenplay and an unpublished
novel about an archaeological explorer.  The work was called "Ark."
    "Raiders" has grossed $46.3 million in 24 days since its release,
making it a good bet to become one of the top money-making films of
all time.
    Rader claims he was developing his own film version of Kuhn's work
and that he submitted his project - which he envisioned as a motion
picture with a religious theme like the pseudo-documentary "In Search
of Noah's Ark" - to International Creative Management talent agency in
1977.  ICM also represented Spielberg and had once represented Lucas.
    Spielberg and Lucas were not immediately available for comment on
the suit.
    Both have said they got the idea from the movie while sitting
around a swimming pool in Hawaii in 1977.
    Thomas Pollock, Lucas' attorney, said, "The charges are
ridiculous.  Every time you have a successful movie, there'll be
people who come forward who claim it's theirs."
    Spokesmen for Paramount Pictures, the company that financed the
film, and Lucasfilm, Lucas's production company, declined comment.
Both are defendants in the suit.
    "Never has there been so much secrecy surround a project" as there
was arround making "Raiders of the Lost Ark," Rader told a news
conference in explaining why he has waited until now to file the suit.
    "We didn't learn of the movie until just six weeks ago," he said.
    Rader currently serves as executive vice president of the
Ambassador International Cultural Foundation and as a personal adviser
to Herbert W. Armstrong, 89, patriarch of the Worldwide Church of God,
a Pasadena-based fundamentalist group that receives some $100 million
annually from its 100,000 members.
    Rader said the suit had nothing to do with the church.
    Rader's lawsuit outlines the plot of Kuhn's work "Ark."  As in
"Raiders," the principal character is an American university professor
and archaeologist about 40 years old who is "something of a rogue."
    Like the character Indiana Jones in the current film, Kuhn's
professor first finds his girlfriend of a decade before and then finds
the Ark of the Covenant in the Middle East in the ancient "Well of the
Souls."

---
--Lauren--

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/9/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details about the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 14:01:28-EDT
From: c-alayto at CCA-UNIX (Alexis Layton)
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark -- SPOILER

I have noted in the debate about the charring of the crate that took
place on the ship that few people have commented on the technical
reason for this charring.  If one steps back and looks at the film
from a plot point of view (an admittedly disagreeable task for some
people), one notices that the charring is the first blatant indication
that the Ark has any magical/mystical power or relevance.  It thus
prepares one for the final sequence.  Without this scene, the film
would have suddenly become "fantastic" where it had been strictly
ordinary for the first hour and three quarters.

By the way, as this is my first submission to SFL, I wish to mention
how much I have enjoyed past issues, etc.

                                        Alex

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 1948-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: RotLA (cont. spoiler)

Actually, not just any Levite would have been able to open the Ark.
Most of us (ahem) were assistants to the real priests, the Kohanim
(Aaronides).  We could carry the Ark, but only the Cohens were able to
get into the *really* good stuff.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 07/09/81 01:09:27
From: LEOR@MIT-MC
Subject: RotLA: Behavior of the Ark; Dragonslayer: nano-review

I dunno about some of you rationalizers, but to me the things the Ark
did were completely consistent with "acts of God" as drilled into me
during several years of religious (Hebrew) school incarceration.  God
LIKED to let the bad guys get feeling cocky, then blow them away in a
big way (thus the fireworks zapping the Nazis).  God also enjoyed
dropping little calling cards, such as the burning off of the Nazi
symbols from the Ark crating.  It's the kind of thing intended to be a
warning to those who know how to recognize such warnings, while the
evil-hearted ones invariably ignore the warning and get theirs soon
enough.
I REALLY LIKE this movie, and intend to see it some unspecified number
(>1) more times (on top of the twice I've already seen it.)

Nano review: "Dragonslayer":  LOVED IT!  The single best dragon I've
ever seen on film, and a reasonably complex plot.  If you can stay in
the theater to see it twice, do so...a lot comes clear and you can see
the dragon again!
        -leor

------------------------------

Date: 07/09/81 08:01:06
From: PCR@MIT-MC
Subject: Lucas' pointers in "Raiders"

I went to see "Raiders" for the second time Sunday, and found three
backwards pointers.  (Actually, I only saw one, my girlfriend and an
associate pointed out the others.)

When Indy is entering the Map Room, if you look on the left side of
the screen, you can see the letters "R2D" mixed in with the
hieroglyphics.  In the Well of Souls, there is a small picture of
R2-D2, on the wall to the right of the stone casket, again mixed in
with hieroglyphics.

And, for all you THX-1138 fans, at the end of the scene where the
crate is being lifted from the submarine, my associate heard a German
talking into a telephone, saying "one one three ei.." IN GERMAN.  (I
don't know German, so I couldn't verify it.
                                ...phil

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #9
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 JUL 1981 0100-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #9
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 11 Jul 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:
         SF Topics - Backward references--Gilbert&Sullivan &
                    Mysticism & Characterization,
              SF Books - Timescape & A Wrinkle in Time &
                       The Steel of Raithskar,
                  SF Movies - Dragons & Superman II,
                        Spoiler - Superman II
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 17:37:15-PDT
From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
Subject: Backward references, Gilbert & Sullivan

In that celebrated schlock-buster, Irwin Allen's "The Swarm", in the
small town of Mayville, Texas, where most of the film's action takes
place, the movie theater is showing "The Towering Inferno", produced
by Irwin Allen.

In Sir Compton McKenzie's book "Rockets Galore", a sequel to his
"Whisky Galore", there are references both to the events of the
earlier novel as events, and also a most jarring reference to the film
version of "Whisky Galore."

To me, the biggest problem with Gilbert and Sullivan's character
"Captain Corcoran" in "HMS Pinafore" and ""Utopia, Ltd." is that in
Pinafore, in order for Little Buttercup to have mixed him up with
Ralph Rackstraw, the two must have been about the same age.  Yet the
Captain's daughter, Josephine, is depicted as being about the same age
as Ralph.
                        May you become rulers of the Queen's Navee,
                        John

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 10:53:55-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: continuity?

   Well, UTOPIA LTD. is definitely contemporary (the brand-new Kodak
slogan is used in one of the songs); if PINAFORE is also taken as
contemporary (which is likely) there is more than a decade between
them (perhaps 2? my chronology of the later shows is hazy but I know
we had the centennial of PINAFORE several years ago).  That's plenty
of time for Corcoran to work his way back up, especially if he follows
the example of the Royal Navy's idol, Horatio Hornblower.

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 14:04 edt
From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Continuity in Gilbert & Sullivan

(I don't know if continuity is what you meant, perhaps consistency?)

        If the Captain and Ralph were switched at birth, then
presumably their names were switched also.  So the Captain Corcoran in
Utopia Ltd. was really Rafe Rackstraw in H.M.S. Pinafore.
        That he exhibits the same personality as Captain Corcoran in
Pinafore, is only because clearly, in G&S's world, the uniform does
indeed make the man.  (Even at the end of Pinafore, there is a
personality switch - if I remember correctly Sir Joseph forces (now
Captain) @i(Ralph) to say "If you please" to (now foremast hand)
@i(Corcoran)!
        I don't know if this is the accepted explanation, but really
to pick at nits in Gilbert & Sullivan doesn't seem right.  Nowhere do
they claim to be consistent (in fact, nowhere do they even claim to
make sense!)

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 23:29-EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>
Subject: Mysticism in Science Fiction

SORCEROR at LL said:  we read and enjoy fiction which hypothesizes
faster than light travel.  So why can we not read and enjoy novels
that hypothesize the validity of astral projection, phrenology,
reincarnation... ?  Are we snobs who will only suspend disbelief of
certain restricted branches of pseudoscience?

But what about people who write books that try to convince you that
some particular kind of mysticism is true?  What about the Don Juan
books by Castaneda, or James Churchward's series about the lost
continent of Mu?  Does my willingness to read fiction about time
travel make me a hypocrite if I deny the literal truth of the Bible?

Fiction is usually very different in tone from books by real mystics.
Fiction tries hard to entertain.  It often fails, but you can usually
tell that it's trying.  Real mysticism is often pompous and
condescending, infatuated with its own profundity.  It doesn't work to
pretend that I'm reading fiction -- the stuff doesn't come off any
better as fiction than as supposed fact.

I should add that in my opinion the Bible manages to come through as
stirring reading anyway.  The Qur`an too.  The Book of Mormon has its
moments.  I found the Bhagavad-Gita boring.

   ---Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 08:16:41-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: More on characterization

I think that Niven's story outline further illustrates my point that
one needs more substance to flesh out a story.  I (and I suspect most
others) found the outline highly unsatisfactory, despite its epic
scope.  (Note:  PLEASE don't flame off and say I'm unfairly
criticizing Niven -- I really did read the part of the introduction
where he describes it as the outline for what would have been his
longest novel.  I KNOW it isn't intended to stand alone as a story.)
What was missing?  Well, yes, more plot details.  And more
justification for some of the changes in what we "knew".  But I think
that another missing element was that we got no sense of what any of
the characters were feeling.  Imagine, if you will, what Schaeffer
would have thought about suddenly becoming sexless.  Yes, he'd be
without sexual desires, but he doesn't KNOW that yet -- he's had 200
years of fulfilling them.  And think of the (single!) Kzin's reaction
to all that -- remember that in most sf novels, we are extrapolating a
society's reaction from that of a few of its members.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 08:30:00-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: More on Gregory Benford's "Timescape"

For those of you who are tuning in late, I sent in a review of
"Timescape" written when I was only half-way through.  Now that I'm
finished with the book, I see little need to retract my comments.
Well, some minor amendments:  there WERE two professional women who
were important to the plot.  One supplied some essential facts, but
appeared in person only briefly; the other -- a cosmologist -- served
little purpose beyond being a sex object.  And the character I called
an upper-class twit is really an upper-class bastard -- he's not as
ineffectual as I had first thought.  In fact, he has two driving
hungers -- power and women -- and he uses the former to procure
(definitely the right word) the latter.

There were some good points.  The book does deal with time and
paradoxes more convincingly than do most sf books.  Benford's
portrayal of academic life is depressingly realistic.  And his
depiction of what can happen to the personal life of a scientist hot
on the trail of something exciting is very good; I suspect that many
of us will request that our girlfriends/boyfriends/husbands/wives/
lovers read the book for just that aspect.

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 0643-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Dan Hoey at CMU-10A
Subject: The Steel of Raithskar

        It is my pleasure to mention a new title to the readers of
this list.  @i(The Steel of Raithskar) by Randall Garrett and Vicki
Ann Heydron is the first of a (planned?) trilogy named the
@i(Gandalara Cycle).  Mr. Garrett is well known for his tight
plotting, carefully constructed fantasy, and engrossing mystery to
readers of the Lord D'Arcy series.  At the risk of nit-picking, I
fault that series only on the basis of its dry, academic tenor, and a
slight tendency to concentrate on actions over people.  And at the
risk of excessive romanticism, I attribute the warmth, emotion, and
excellent characterization of the current work to collaboration with
Ms. Heydron, his wife.

        At no risk, I highly recommend this novel.  I would draw the
parallels to the best of Asimov, Brackett, Bradley, Cherryh, Crowley,
Herbert, McCaffrey, and Tolkien, but when a book is this full of
surprises, it's a sin to tell.

        I did run across one jarring note, for which I seek
clarification.  Midway through (and no spoiler) we find the following
narrative.

        A huge chrome-nickel-iron meteor had come smashing in
    through the atmosphere in the distant past at somewhere
    between ten and twenty miles per second.  At those velocities,
    plenty of hard radiation is given off during the time it takes
    to go through the atmosphere--between ten seconds and two
    minutes, depending on the speed and the angle at which it
    struck.  That radiation would be lethal to those creatures
    near enough to barely survive the impact, and disabling to
    those who caught a smaller dose....

        Meteors have been blamed for many things, including physical
heating of the biosphere, the greenhouse effect, and heavy-metal
poisoning.  There was an overlong discussion of these effects and
their relation to dinosaur extinction either here or on Human-Nets;
I'd just as soon see that discussion follow the dinosaurs into
extinction.  But hard radiation?  This sounds like the sort of <EFM>
arrant pseudoscientific gibberish that infests so much of modern
fantasy <LFM>.  [It could be explained away as narration by an
uninformed character, but that would be reaching.]

        So I ask for the experts' opinions.  If anyone can support the
described emission of radiation by a high-velocity meteor, please send
a note to Hoey@CMU-10A, and I'll collect and report.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1981 1536-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: David Dyer-Bennet (DYER-BENNET at KL2137)
Subject: SFL responses

(On question from Greg Woodbury about A Wrinkle in Time:)

Yes, I remember it favorably also.  I think our 6th grade teacher read
it to the class.  There are also two sequels, A Wind in the Door and A
Swiftly Tilting planet.  I don't think they are as good as the
original, but in my opinion at least that leaves them a fair amount of
room to work in.  They seem to be suffering from Christianization on
the part of the author.

(Question from B. Templeton)
I can't claim it was my first, but I think it was the first really
good SF book I ran into.  The first above the hack-written trash or at
best space opera school.

(Michael First on Raiders of the Lost Ark)
I do not find myself objecting to the philosophy of, or the ethics
displayed in, the film.  I realize that I should, but I too am a fan
of escapist entertainment.

I object to the film because it's too shoddily scripted to be
\believable/ escapist entertainment.  An escapist film may set up
whatever rules it wants, but it must then resolve its conflicts within
those rules.  I don't think RotLA passes this test.

Was there by any chance any hint of real existence for the Raiders
Resistance League?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 08:29:28-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley
Subject: Re: The habits of dragons

I seem to recall that Tolkien spends a lot of time in his lesser known
stories discussing the eating and other habits of worms and dragons.
See especially "The Tolkien Reader", I think "Farmer Giles of Ham" is
especially rewarding, but it has been too long since I read it to be
sure.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 13:55:52-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Superman II

Another interesting error in Superman II was pointed out to me by a
friend (JSGray@UW-TSS).  He notes that when the White House is shown,
it is rather obvious we are observing a still - the water in the
fountain is frozen in mid-air!

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1981 19:00:03-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: filming Superman I and II (mild spoiler)

   For those interested, here is some more detail about the filming of
Supermans I and II (readers of Cinefantastique needn't read further,
as this stuff appeared in their interviews with Richard Donner and
Pierre Spengler):
   The original plan was to economize (?!) by filming I and II
together, from a massive script by Mario Puzo.  When Richard Donner
was hired as director, he commissioned massive rewrites, making the
story less campy and more mythic.  By the time production stopped,
Supe I was in the can together with, according to Donner at the time,
70 or 80 percent of Supe II, at a cost of $55M.  One rumor has it that
in fact Donner took the ending of II and used it in I, which might
safely be assumed to add to the problems of making II.
   Anyway, just before shooting commenced on II, Donner was fired in a
flurry of bad feelings, mainly between him and producer Pierre
Spengler.  Richard Lester, who had previously served as liaison
between Donner and Spengler, was brought in to direct.  Part of the
problem in making II was that Marlon Brando had to be written out--he
had been paid for, and had filmed, performances in both films--as a
result of his suit (with Puzo) for a share of the profits accruing
from the film.  (Interestingly, Spengler claims that Superman has yet
to show a profit despite worldwide grosses of $275M).  Adding to the
problems were the demises of Geoffrey Unsworth, cinematographer, and
John Barry, art director and set designer, who contributed so
significantly to the 'look' of the first film.
   The net result, according to Spengler, is a film 75% of which was
filmed by Lester.  Of the remainder, supposedly 10% is due to
second-unit directors and 15% to Donner, including the title recap
from I.  Donner specifically claims credit for the moon sequence and
the White House scenes.  Apparently the Metropolis battle, Superman/
Lois interaction and Niagara Falls footage was all shot by Lester,
with the Eiffel Tower thrown in to replace the original route out of
the Phantom Zone, the rocket that Superman threw into space at the end
of I.
   The cost of the production is now given by Spengler as $109M for
both films making them arguably the most expensive films ever made
(the Bondarchuk "War and Peace" cost $100M but is 6-1/2 hours long).
   The respective comments by Spengler and Donner should be taken with
much of salt, as each has an interest in discrediting the other;
lawsuits are flying, and the two apparently fought continuously during
production of I-cum-II.

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It gives away plot
details of the recent movie "Superman II".  Readers who have not seen
this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 23:29-EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>
Subject: Why I don't like the Superman movies.

The Superman movies are trash because they lie to the viewer.  In the
first episode, Superman is forbidden to travel in time.  Harsh
penalties and dire consequences are threatened.  Superman resolves the
major crisis of the movie by travelling in time.  Nothing happens to
him.  In part II, Superman's mother tells him in no uncertain terms
that if he gives up his powers, he does so permanently.  No loopholes
are given or hinted at.  But at the crisis of the film, Superman gets
his powers back with only the feeblest attempt at an explanation.  I
felt completely cheated.  I could play master-level chess if I didn't
have to follow the rules.  Would that be much of an accomplishment?

   ---Wechsler
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #10
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 JUL 1981 0338-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #10
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sun, 12 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:
            SF Books - Creatures in vacuum & The Orphan &
                    Octagon & Survival of Freedom,
       SF Topics - Tachyons & Timescape & The Fenton Silencer,
     SF Movies - Stand-ins & Raiders quirk? & Billy Dee Williams
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1981 1147-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: creatures in a vacuum

        Spider and Jean Robinson's Stardance has the firefly creatures
who live in a vacuum.  There is also another creature in the book that
lives in a vacuum, but it would entail a spoiler.
        John Varley's Titan world-creatures also live in a vacuum,
though there is air inside them of course.
        The "Father" creature and his children in The Ballad of
Beta-2, by Delany, are another example.
                                        --cat

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1981 10:14 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: The Orphan, by Robert Stallman

 The Orphan (The First Book of the Beast)
 by Robert Stallman
 Pocket Books
 ISBN 0-671-82958-0
 paper $2.25

The Orphan is a sympathetic treatment of a were-beast, growing up in
Mid West America during the depression.  The book doesn't have much of
a plot o resolution, but is valuable for its feel.  The Beast is a
self-assured powerful creature, completely at home in the wild, with
senses and speed above those of other creatures.  Among these senses
is 'spatial sense':

 The dove flutters from the steel bar.  Each beat of her wings
 produces a ripple of pressure that widens to the walls of the huge
 loft.  Blind in the darkness, she is the center of a quite beautiful
 arrangement of concentric waves of pressure that I sense directly.
 She appears transfixed, the living center of the whirlpool of her
 own wingbeats, bright with life in the center of a rippling web.

The other side of the story is the Beast's human half, a boy growing
up through adolescence.  The Beast and the Boy must learn to coexist
in a single body.

The book was a lot of fun, and the prose, especially the Beast prose,
is great.

(My roommate says the sequel, 'The Captive', is rotten though.)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1981 12:34:37-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: "Octagon", by Fred Saberhagen

Don't bother with this turkey.  There's a strong computer element, and
Saberhagen has most of the terminology right (and probably a fair
amount of hands-on experience -- there's a throw-away reference to a
modem being experimental, with very high baud rate, when someone is
about to hook a color TRS-80 to a Cray-4 [sic] over a phone line), but
the plot displays a woeful disregard for what computers are and can
do.  Let me give one (mostly) non-spoiler sample:

        "Codes, opening a pathway, you say?  To the control of all
        the computers in the country?"
        "Of most of the large interconnected computer systems.
        Which is enough.  Using the code, you could put in orders
        that will override any ordinary programming.  You can
        extract information from supposedly secret, protected
        files...."

And this code -- originally installed on some government computers --
is on essentially all of them today (certainly in the early 1980s, by
the other evidence in the book), and has been retained despite
generations of reprogramming, etc.....  From there, the book goes very
far downhill; "True Names" or "When Harlie Was One" are much better
hacker novels.

One nice touch:  there's a simulation games company called
"Berserkers, Inc." -- "He got the name from some science fiction
stories, I understand, about some kind of killer robots".  No mention
of the ARPAnet or sf-lovers, though.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1981 0633-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: Book Review: The Survival of Freedom

The Survival of Freedom, Jerry Pournelle and John F Carr, eds. 381
pages, paper, $2.50, August 1981, Fawcett Crest [Final quote in this
review from Robinson Jeffers; see p.136]

Pournelle has been given recently to publishing "theme" anthologies.
This is another such.  The theme of this one is the evils of
totalitarianism.  In keeping with the mailing-list tradition of using
obscure abbreviacronyms for such things, I'll refer to it as "SF" (heh
heh).

SF is a good book.  In my humble opinion, Pournelle is a better editor
than writer of fiction.  His style is to the point, abrupt, even
heavy-handed.  While not optimal for fiction, this is quite beneficial
in one-page introductions and straightforward expositions of opinion.
The introductions to the stories, poems, and essays in SF usually
enhance the material by additional information and/or insight; such
relevant intros are rare in my experience.  (Even the non-relevant
ones can be good--one in particular, an anecdote about Heinlein, is
priceless.)

And the selection of stories and what-have-you is also generally
top-drawer.  We have such classics as "The Liberation of Earth" by
William Tenn and "`Repent, Harlequin!' Said the Ticktockman" by Harlan
Ellison.  We have the marvelous "Lipidleggin'" by F Paul Wilson and
"Dodkin's Job" by Jack Vance.  In spite of the fact that Pournelle's
politics are generally Standard American Conservative, we have "Why
Anarchy" (non-fiction) by Libertarian David Friedman and "The Looking
Glass of the Law" by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr.  This last is an effective
counterpiece to a Pournelle essay critical of current interpretations
of the Fifth Amendment; a sense of balance is maintained by giving a
reductio ad absurdum to his own strongly held position.

You may not like this book if you are a socialist; the point is
strongly made that the main enemy of freedom is dependence, usually on
government.  However, this is all the more reason for you to read it.
Although editorial bias is present, even obvious, the base is broad,
and a claim to evenhandedness is not precluded.  Take Norman Spinrad's
"Sierra Maestra":  its blade is sharp on both sides.

I disagree with some of Pournelle's politics, especially in using
government to develop space; however, he has prompted me to reread
John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty" (not included), and that alone is
worth the cover price.

"Long live freedom and damn the ideologies."

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1981 0412-EDT
From: TEITELBAUM at RUTGERS
Subject: Tachyons and TIMESCAPE (minor spoiler)

    With all the stories I've seen recently that use tachyons I'm
suprised that no one has realized the most interesting application of
tachyons:  building extremely powerful computers.  Given some means of
transmitting information backwards in time we may be able to build a
computer capable of alternation.  Remember that alternating polynomial
time = deterministic polynomial space.  Impressive, no?

    In response to the query about the physics in TIMESCAPE:  although
I'm no expert on quantum mechanics it seems that the universe would
split immediately when a message was received.  Benford fudged it to
make the plot work.

    Paul Dietz
    (teitelbaum@rutgers)

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1981 15:45 edt
From: Sibert at MIT-Multics (W. Olin Sibert)
Subject: Remember the Fenton Silencer?

For all those of you who delighted in Harry Purvis' unlikely stories,
chronicled by Arthur Clarke in "Tales From The White Hart", I
reproduce here a news item I happened across in the July 6, 1981 issue
of E. E. Times (an electronics industry newspaper).  If you've never
read "Tales From The White Hart", I strongly recommend it, as well as
all of Clarke's other short story collections.

"THINGS THAT GO RUMBLE IN THE NIGHT

"For several years, people living near a compressor station powered by
a gas turbine at Duxford, in the U.K., have been troubled by noise.
Though high-frequency sounds have been reduced by passive control
equipment (such as baffles), low-frequency rumbles can often be
clearly heard about a mile away.  Now an active silencer is cutting
this out, too.

"Active silencers are not new, but this is believed to be the first
large-scale installation of its kind.  The National Research
Development Corporation invested $600,000 to fund work by a small
spin-off company from Cambridge University called Topexpress Ltd (1
Portugal Place, Cambridge, CB5 8AF, England).  The active silencer
uses four microphones, signal-processing equipment, 12 amplifiers
capable of 11 kW output, and 72 loudspeakers.  The output of the
silencer is out of phase with the original random sound field, and
cancels it."

I wonder if this one, like the Fenton Silencer, explodes when
overloaded..... and I always thought Harry Purvis was pure fiction.

 -- Olin

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1981 13:05:25-PDT
From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley
Subject: What a "standin" really is.

        I have seen a lot of discussion about whether or not Harrison
Ford used a stunt double in "Raiders of the Lost Ark."  Someone
recently sent the name of the person listed as "Mr. Ford's Stand In"
in the credits.  This reflects a little misunderstanding of the movie
biz.  A "Stand In" is a person who stands around for the stars while
the gaffers are placing lights, the cinematographer is checking camera
moves, etc.  This is purely so the actor doesn't have to stand around
under the hot lights for several hours before each shot.
        A person who does stunts for an actor is listed as a "Stunt
Double".
        Hope this clears up some misunderstandings.

                                        george bray

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1981 10:07-EDT
From: Andrew Tannenbaum <TRB at MIT-MC>
Subject: RotLA quirk?

I have only seen the Raiders of the Lost Ark once.  I therefore ask
this question, rather than confirm this statement.  When he was
describing the Ark of the Covenant, did Jones refer to the mountain as
Mount Herob instead of Mount Horeb?  That was the impression I got,
but I am not in the mood to see the flick again just to confirm that
and to look for THX1138's.
        Andy

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1981 0312-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <JPM at SU-AI>
Subject: Billy Dee Williams

                        By Michael Davis
         (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    The Force IS with Billy Dee Williams.
    No, not his bodyguard, though that guy has enough force in his
biceps to knock any creep into hyper-space.
    We're not discussing brute force here, but rather the Force, that
lovely psycho-physical energy "Star Wars" good guys receive from
Commonwealth Kenobi.  Williams is just oozing with the stuff, seven
months before resuming his cinematic search for Han Solo in "Revenge
of the Jedi," the next "Star Wars" sequel.
    Though he is to play a pivotal part in the denouement of the third
link of the middle trilogy of the nine-installment, 27-year Star Wars
saga, Williams says he has little or no idea what will come to pass in
"Revenge of the Jedi," scheduled for May, 1983, release.
    Three years seems like an interminable period to keep an audience
in suspense, but from all indications - the best being full houses for
a recent nationwide revival of the original "Star Wars" - we'll all
be panting in anticipation when "Revenge of the Jedi" finally
reaches our local Cinema Six.
    No one is more anxious to resolve the conflicts of Act II of the
"Star Wars" saga than Lando Calrissian, er, Billy Dee Williams.
Williams says he has no idea how he will retrieve and revivify Han
Solo (Harrison Ford), freeze-dried and shipped away like a pound of
Taster's Choice by malefactor Darth Vader in "The Empire Strikes
Back."
    "All I know is I must first find the bounty hunter Boba Fett, then
find Han.  After that ... I know nothing," shrugs Williams, like a
traveler given only partial directions to a final destination.
    Top secret is the way George Lucas wants things.  Lucas, the
founding genius of "Star Wars," wants to keep the suspense high right
up to the film's release date.
    It was that way when Williams enthusiastically agreed to play
Calrissian in "The Empire Strikes Back."
    "I signed knowing nothing about the character," says Williams, who
breezed into town recently to promote the ill-received "Nighthawks"
with Sylvester Stallone.  (One critic suggested the film was bad
enough to kill a viewer's brain cells.)
    "I just knew 'Empire' was something I really wanted to be a part
of.  When you're talking about Lucas, you're talking about a new breed
of filmmaker.  A filmmaker for the 21st century.
    "When we were filming 'Empire,' all the fantasy had to be in your
head.  The special effects came later, and all we had behind us were
blue backgrounds.  They just gave us direction and we took it.  You
had to put yourself in their hands.
    "The 'Star Wars' pictures have their own styling and their own
rhythm, but that doesn't come together until the production ends and
the editing and mixing begin.  A lot of what we did on the set was
boring because there was so much technology involved.  But they knew
what they wanted, and it turned out very, very well."
    It wasn't until the day Williams screened "The Empire Strikes
Back" at a special preview for Twentieth Century-Fox employees that he
first actually saw Yoda, the gentle green guru.  "I read about him in
the script," Williams says, "but when I saw him I was astonished like
everyone else."
    As Yoda might say, certain there is little about "Revenge of the
Jedi."  Except for these meager crumbs:
    - The film primarily will be shot at the Elstree Studios in
Borehamwood, England, as was "The Empire Strikes Back."  Principal
shooting begins Jan. 13, but some preliminary special effects shooting
already has begun.  In addition, there will be some location shooting
at several yet-to-be determined locales.
    - Lucas is searching for an English director for "Revenge of the
Jedi."
    How close are the people at Lucasfilm to announcing a director?
"Close," says Lucasfilm executive vice president Sid Gannis.
"Verrrrry close."
    Meantime, Lucas is putting the finishing touches on "Raiders of
the Lost Ark," a joint project with Steven ("Close Encounters of the
Third Kind") Spielberg.  The much-anticipated film is scheduled for
summer release.
    - And finally, it appears Williams' character will become even
more a hero in "Revenge of the Jedi."
    "That seems certain," says Gannis, who says the actual number of
people who have read George Lucas' story for "Revenge of the Jedi,"
not yet in screenplay form, number fewer than 10.
    Meet Williams and you'll walk away swearing the only differences
between the actor and his "Star Wars" character are subtle ones.
Calrissian and Williams are smooth-talkers - lovers, not fighters.
Both have dash, bravado, intelligence and the good sense to stay away
from a fight if they can avoid it.
    "But Lando is nonetheless a hero," says Williams, "a swashbuckling
hero.  Although Han Solo would use a weapon if he got into trouble,
Lando would try to charm his way out."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #11
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 JUL 1981 2340-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #11
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 13 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:
         SF TV - Kubrick interview, SF Topics - Breatharian,
           SF Books - Mimsy once again & The Real Camelot,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 81 18:41-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-Unix
Subject: time-value data: Kubrick interview

On Walter Cronkite's 'UNIVERSE' show Tuesday evening, 8pm (7 central),
Kubrick is supposedly going to talk about his art.  That's all I know.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 13:56:41-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!pag at Berkeley
Subject: Breatharian Man

    Last night I heard a radio interview with Wiley Brooks, the self-
proclaimed "breatharian".  He claims to live on air and snow alone,
and supposedly has been witnessed lifting 1100 lbs.  He did admit to
drinking some orange juice "once every two weeks".  Other interesting
tidbits -- he can easily withstand 180 degree temperatures, or go
naked in 0 (deg. F) weather with no discomfort, receives psychic
"messages" about his future.  One of these messages directed him to
move from LA to Boulder because a nuclear war was imminent and Boulder
would be the safest locale to survive (doesn't he know about the Rocky
Flats weapons plant?).  It even gave him an exact address in Boulder
where he would be "received" (he was arrested for trespassing).
    Anyone else out there know anything about this guy?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 1981 1725-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL at METOO
Subject: Here's the title (again)...

The story which describes a  crystal sphere containing a microcosm  is
"Mimsy Were The Borogoves" by Henry Kuttner.  This story can be  found
in the collection of short stories "The Best of Henry Kuttner".
It is also to be found  (credited to Lewis Padgett, the  Kuttner/Moore
pen name) in "A Treasury of  Science Fiction" edited by Groff  Conklin
and more recently in the DAW  anthology "The Great SF Stories  5-1943"
edited by Isaac Asimov & Martin H. Greenberg.
I have no doubt it  can also be found in  several other places, but  I
only have my own (smallish)  collection of science fiction  paperbacks
indexed on-line.  Maybe SFL readers  could collaborate in producing  a
more comprehensive index - there are  probably quite a few people  who
read SFL and who have similar on-line databases.

P.S. To any readers at MIT -  is the MIT index to the science  fiction
magazines available in machine readable form ?

[As mentioned in Volume 3 Issue #157 of SF-LOVERS Digest, the story
"Mimsy Were The Borogoves" by Henry Kuttner under the pen name Lewis
Padgett was anthologized in volume one of The Science Fiction Hall of
Fame, The Best of Henry Kuttner, and (though I have not personally
verified this last) Mathematical Magpie.  According to The Index to
Science Fiction Anthologies and Collections, compiled by William
Contento (1978), it did appear in A Treasury of Science Fiction (not
to be confused with A Treasury of Great Science Fiction, edited by
Anthony Boucher), and it also appeared in The Little Monsters (Elwood
& Ghidalia, though that title sounds a lot like it refers to my
father's children), the second The Best of Henry Kuttner, A Gnome
There Was (Padgett), and a German collection entitled Ueberwindung von
Raum und Zeit (Gunther).  Presumably the Asimov & Greenberg work
mentioned above was Asimov Presents The Great Science Fiction Stories,
whichever volume covered the period 1935 (I guess) to 1943.  I was
unable to verify that it has this story.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1981 1503-PDT (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: The REAL Camelot?

BC-BOOK-REVIEW Undated
By JOHN LEONARD
c.1981 N.Y. Times News Service
    THE REAL CAMELOT. Paganism and the Arthurian Romances. By John
Darrah. 160 Pages. Thames & Hudson. $13.95.

    What more can we ask?  We get sex, cannibalism, castration and the
cult of the severed head.  Blue stones move in the night, from Wales
to England.  Was Camelot really Stonehenge, and the Round Table an
occasion for killing kings?  John Darrah, about whom his publisher
tells us nothing, has written a wonderful footnote to Frazer's "The
Golden Bough."  According to Darrah, the Arthurian legends belong to
the Bronze Age, not the Dark Ages.  They have little to do with
post-Roman Britain or Christian symbolism.  They are pagan puffery, a
kind of glorious filler for the metaphysical imagination between the
Indo-Europeans and the Pope.  The Celts, as usual, took a beating.
    Darrah wants it both ways.  Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Gawain
and so on were real people, although they pulled their swords from
stones a couple of thousand years before the birth of Christ instead
of 500 years after the Last Supper.  On the other hand, they were also
"offices," court functions, God-surrogates, varnished myth.  The
French medieval poets who, at many removes, did so much for Richard
Burton on Broadway are not to be trusted.  Malory and Tennyson missed
the point.  T.S. Eliot, cloaked as with a gauze of ether, perhaps came
closer to the point when he went on, in "The Wasteland," about the
Fisher King.
    "The Real Camelot" is reckless and engaging.  Merlin, according to
Malory, feels bad:  "At this moment a white hart ran into the hall
pursued by a small white hound called a brachet and '30 couple of
black running hounds.'  The brachet bit the hart which gave a great
leap and overthrew a knight who then picked up the brachet, took
horse, and rode away with it.  At once a lady rode in on a white
palfrey demanding that the king recover the brachet for her, but he
had scarcely turned to reply before she was seized by a fully armed
knight and carried away by force."
    Merlin, knowing an omen when it hits him on the head, "now warned
that these events were significant and unless the king retrieved the
participants it would bring dishonor to himself and his feast.  Gawain
was therefore sent to fetch the hart, Tor to fetch the brachet and the
knight, and Sir Pellinore to fetch the lady and the knight; in case
the knights should not willingly come, they were to be slain.  The
Knights of the Round Table successfully carried out their tasks and
returned to Camelot with stories of a challenge at a river crossing, a
challenge where a horn was blown, and a severed head by a well ..."
    Darrah cheerfully concedes that neither Malory nor Darrah can
explain what any of this means, but it certainly isn't Christian
allegory and doesn't sound much like a French poet.  It is a
fabulation of an older order.  We are asked to spend a good deal of
time contemplating severed heads, especially near wells or river
crossings.  Water is important, and so are trees, not to mention
stags, bulls and goats.  The severed head, however, is a particular
enthusiasm of the Celts.
    Stonehenge, we are told, is a "giants' dance."  Knights are
supposed to meet in single combat at a sacred site.  Winners take over
the responsibility for the site and the rights to wives of the losers.
Those bonfires at Halloween probably involved a human sacrifice.  The
grail, about which we have heard so much, was likely to have been a
vessel full of blood.  Galahad is thus associated more with the Celtic
"cult of the Eaten God" than he is with Christ, who substituted wine
and wafers.
    Darrah knows many more languages than I do, including Welsh, and
takes Sir James Frazer more seriously than, say, Claude Levi-Strauss
might manage to.  He moves from Fisher King to "challenge" knight to
the annual slaughter of one's ruler, as if he were ambling down Penny
Lane.  "Maimed" is one of his favorite words; usually it is the
genitals that are maimed, since the king and his fertility are so
closely related to agriculture.  It is amazing to me that the czars
avoided this problem, considering the fact that Russian crops always
fail.  But Celts are tougher than Russians.
    We are in a dreamland of "dolorous strokes," "perilous beds," cold
castles and Morgan le Fay.  The Mother must be divine, and the stone
will float.  Darrah provides us several tables, all of them
rectangular, to explain Merlin, Galahad, the solstice, bridges,
islands and Black Knights.  I find these tables hilarious; I am a
Celt.
    What does it all mean?  There were a lot of maimed kings before
Galahad took over the Oval Office.  The Round Table has to be
redefined not only as a place where "wounded knights were habitually
left to die," but also as "a central organization of ritually maimed
ceremonial figures, which was in the course of time replaced by a
national gathering of challenge-knights (including a contingent from
Brittany).  The gathering took place to honor a local representative
of the Indo-European lightning god at a spring festival at which an
annual king was elected who should at the end of his term, like his
sister, die a ritual death by bleeding into a sacred vessel for
Eucharistic consumption and be buried in a boat."
    That's my kind of politics.  This is my kind of book.  My Stone is
un-henged.  In my opinion, Darrah is the Celt of the earth, and I very
much want to be buried in a boat.

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 13-Jul-81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details about the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1981 11:01:18-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: RotLA (cont. spoiler)

   On the other hand, the Ark obviously didn't object to random goyim
(and even members of races that opposed the Jews) carrying the Ark, so
maybe it got a little less fussy over 3 millennia.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1981 07:36:00-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark (Spoiler)

(1) It seems that God doesn't mind being crated, just who does the
crating.  After all, the Ark itself is a kind of crate...

(2) I didn't interpret the scene in the hold as the rats dying after
seeing the crate.  They might well have, having not averted their
little ratty eyes from God's handiwork.  More, I thought the action
the film depicted was that rats giving a form of animal obeisance.
The position the rat went into was a characteristic animal submissive
posture...hindquarters raised, head to the floor looking at the
dominant object. (I don't know if that is rat behavior, but my cats do
that frequently when I am angry at them.)

(3) The business at the climax has to be interpreted in terms of
Biblical tradition:  God supposedly hovers over the ark, not in the
ark.

(4) Does anybody have any thoughts on the succubus-like wraith which
emerges from the Ark?  Is this based on any myth, or is it merely a
representative abstraction of the ecstasy prior to God's Wrath.

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1981 1439-EDT (Thursday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: Burn marks in RotLA
I assumed that the swastika was obliterated so that the crate would
not be as easily identifiable to the Nazi submarine.  Since it was
found, it didn't work too well.

Lee

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 81 16:30:51-EDT (Mon)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: ROTLA

        Recently there seems to have been quite a fair amount of
speculation with respect to the Ark's rather extraordinary "behavior"
while confined to the hold of the `Bantu Wind'.  While there appears
to be no simple, immediately ascertainable answer to why it should
char the Wehrmacht insignia off its crate, it might well be that the
Ark is unwilling to be being owned by a political entity.  This
conjecture is based on the fact that the book ends leading the reader
to believe that the Ark will, once alone and forgotten in the American
warehouse, char the American stencil off its crate.
        Perhaps, the way to solve our problem would be to obtain a
firm ruling from the creator of the story.  However, it might be more
fun to leave the mystery unsolved since it is undeniably a high
tribute to authors and filmmakers to have their work thoroughly
analyzed by their fans.
                        Sue

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1981 15:40:01-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark (SPOILER)

First: a possible error in the film:
When Jones leaves the US, he flies through the Golden Gate, past a
fully completed Golden Gate bridge.  As I hear it, however, the famous
bridge was not completed until 1939, 3 years after the time of the
movie.

2)  The scene that brought the greatest Audience reaction when I saw
the film was Indiana's shooting of the Arabic sword master.  (There
was thunderous applause.)  The reaction to this scene is an
interesting comment on modern society.  Do people love that scene
because it signifies that western methods (a gun) are REALLY better
than various cliche ancient methods such as swordplay?  All I can
conclude is that the average Silicon Valley moviegoer probably isn't
that keen on a return to ancient ways -- if that means anything.
            -Brad

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1981 1404-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Shooting of Arabic sword master

At the recent west coast SF convention, one of the Raiders-makers gave
a brief talk and slide-show about the making.  The particular scene
you refer to was done that way because they didn't want to film
another complicated fight scene.  They only had one afternoon and such
a scene would require 5 days to film.  Purportedly, Lucas and
Spielberg agonized over the scene, and questioned its 'decency' and
'humanity', and finally decided it would work.  (Similar scenes have
appeared in other movies.)  I, for one, was glad I didn't have to sit
through yet another fight.  There were too many as is.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 1407-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: David Dyer-Bennet at KL2137
Subject: SFL responses (spoiler)

(Volume 4 Issue 7)

(STEVE LIONEL) !!SPOILER for RotLA!!

The film I was commenting on was definitely Raiders of the Lost Ark
(RotLA), not Superman II.  Thanks for the warning about Superman II,
though.

The major challenge to Jones that was overcome by hackwriter's gambit
was getting back to the base with the submarine.  I seem to remember
thinking that the distance was significant -- was there a map scene
indicating the route the submarine followed?  If the distance he had
to go with it was known to be short, I suppose I could have been
intended to assume that the sub stayed on the surface all the way --
not unreasonable with a diesel-electric sub in the open ocean -- and
that he didn't die of exposure during the trip.  But if the trip was
of days or weeks duration, I felt I needed some explanation of how he
managed it; there appears to be no obvious answer that I could be
expected to assume.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #12
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 JUL 1981 0546-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #12
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 14 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:
  SF Movies - Out-takes & Superman II vs. Raiders of the Lost Ark &
      "Raiders" in an alternate universe & Gilbert and Sullivan,
                         Humor - Poor taste,
         SF Books - The Steel of Raithscar & Review of Congo
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 July 1981 0127-EDT (Sunday)
From: Michael.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E)
Subject: Movie out takes

If you're a fan of movie out takes, go see The Cannonball Run.

At the end of the movie, they show Out takes behind the closing
credits.

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1981 22:35-EDT
From: Jeff Coffler <JAC at MIT-AI>
Subject: Superman II & ROTLA

Theta Cable, here in LA, runs the "Z" channel, a pay TV company.
Every week, among other things, they show CinemaScore, a show where
they rate current movies.  Superman II and ROTLA were rated.

Superman II -   Critics: A-
                Public:  A+
                Chances of liking the film:  99%

ROTLA -         Critics: A
                Public:  A+
                Chances of liking the film:  98%

Hmm, I thought they were both good movies (despite the problems that
Superman II has), but I think that ROTLA is somewhat better than
Superman.  At least the critics agree with me .....

        -- Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1981 09:57 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: alternate RotLA

Harrison Ford as a gabby Senator:  Writers of the Laws Talk.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 1801-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE-1
Subject: Raiders

The new film from Lukas/Spillberg "Oakland Raiders And The Lost Park".

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 2030-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Gilbert & Sullivan & politics and bloopers

Does anyone remember former President Carter's statement about "a
great man...Hubert Horatio Hornblower" during his acceptance speech at
the Democratic National Convention in '80?

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1981 1800-EDT (Saturday)
From: Dan Hoey at CMU-10A
Subject: Poor taste

                         Bambino's Restaurant

                            Breakfess Menu
          Baken - Blindseys - Hominy Fritz - Ingalish Muffin
          Mabel syrup - Marmalada - Oatmel - Spam - Waphils

                             Lunjohn Menu
    Angeladas - Beef Stu - Billogna - Burritas - Chicken Alec king
 Grhilda cheese - Kippered Harryng - Kitney pie - Salamy - Samburger

                           Horace d'oeuvres
           Annetipasto - Gazpajoe - Jeff salad - Meg rolls
           Oysters on the half Shelly - Patty de foie gras

                              Salad Barb
           Brocollie - Cellery - Heda lettuce - Kellyflower
                     Pickled Beats - Waltercress
                              Garnieshes
Margeryne - Marshamellow - Maryschino cherries - Sour cream and Clives

                                Sueps
       Clem chowder - Myrtle soup - Tomaeto soup - Won Tom soup

                               Entrays
    Arroz con Paula - Biff Bourguignon - Bobster - Calve's Brians
Chetlins - Chicken Gordon bleu - Chop Susy - Coq au Van - Filet of Sol
     Frank steak -  Lesagna - Lynneguini - Mackaroni - Mannycotti
       Neil Cutlets - Peteza - Roast Burkey - Sallysbury steak
        Smoked Solomon - Standing Rob roast - Steak Florentina
                Turkey Devaughnshire - Veal Parmesean

                              Sid Orders
          Artichuck hearts - Chopped Oliviar - Franch fries
            Owenion rings - Provolonny - Whole-wheat Brad

                              Vegetabels
         Black-Ida peas - Karen on the cob - Kayle - Rudybaga
                Russell sprouts - Scalleons - Zackini

                              Libashawns
      Bass Head Dale - Cyder - Drambowie - Lymanade - Miltshake
            Orange Joyce - Perryer water - Sloe Jean fizz

                               Deeserts
    Apple Chrisp - Bucklava - Carriemel apples - Cherries Jubilly
    Chocolate covered Lance - Cupkates - Dave-nut bread - Fawndue
 Gerry pie - Jillo - Napauleon pastry - Parfay - Peaches and Corinne
   Sherbert - Spumona - Strawbarry shortcake - Watermellen - Yogert

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1981 at 2152-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ GARRETT & HEYDRON ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If Dan Hoey is introducing a new title to SF-LOVERS in his message on
Garrett & Heydron's STEEL OF RAITHSCAR, I must not have mentioned it
admiringly some time ago, as I thought I had.  In any event, we are
certainly in agreement as to its enjoyability.

However, from having recently observed the Garrett's at an autograph
session, his apparent degree of recuperation from the very serious
illness of 3-4 years ago was such that I believe it is likely that
RAITHSCAR is as much Ms. Heydron's work as J.O. Jeppson's (Mrs.
Asimov) books are all \her/ own.

There might be a further clue from the fact that 2 years ago at
Aggiecon Ms. Heydron enthusiastically mentioned "a whole drawerfull"
of Lord Darcy plot sketches to be developed, but she now disclaims the
likelihood of their being used.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 17:43:00-PDT
From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
Subject: Review of CONGO

The following review of Michael Crichton's novel CONGO turned up on my
desk.  It is evidently from some IEEE publication, but I don't know
when or which one.  I realize that this is only marginally SF, but I
think that the "gentle readers" of SFL might be interested.

    CONGO by Michael Crichton, Alfred A. Knopf Inc., 1980, 348pp.,
    $10.95.  Reviewed by Robert W. Lucky, Director, Electronic and
    Computer Systems Laboratory, Bell Laboratories

    It isn't often that electronics and IEEE-type people are
    central to a best-selling novel.  For better or worse, that is
    the case with the new Michael Crichton (ANDROMEDA STRAIN, THE
    GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY, etc.) thriller.  While the novel is
    exciting, it does contain a good deal of incorrect information
    about electronic technology.

    In CONGO, three intrepid, 20th Century bounty hunters set out
    to find the lost city of Zinj in darkest Africa, armed only
    with their wits, a portable satellite dish, computers,
    satellite transceivers, lasers, image-intensifying night
    glasses, laser guided weapons, and an unbelievable assortment
    of other scientific and defense equipment.  Fortunately, all
    this stuff, including food and water and camping supplies for
    two weeks, fits into their 20-pound backpacks.

    For a heroine, we have Karen Ross, a 6-foot, icy blonde whose
    Ph.D. thesis at M.I.T. was entitled "Topological Prediction in
    n-Space."  She's a computer specialist for Earth Resources
    Technology Services Inc. of Houston.  When an ERTS team is
    mysteriously wiped out in the Congo, Karen sets about
    processing the video signal which, as luck would have it, was
    being transmitted via satellite while everyone there was
    having his head crushed by a shadowy force (this is the
    highlight of the book--page 7).

    ERTS is equipped for such contingencies with 837 computer
    programs to alter imagery.  Karen eliminates the noise in the
    tape with a "wash cycle" and does image enhancement with a
    "fill-in-the-blanks" program.  She briefly worries about the
    validity of the resulting picture, since almost anything can
    happen when "you're rotating 106 pixels in computer-generated
    hyper space."  Nevertheless, the shadowy force is transformed
    into a pictue of a male gorilla.  When Karen insists with her
    boss that she lead the back-up expedition, he protests that
    "we all know that your're fast with the database," and that we
    don't need a "console hotdogger" in the field.  Of course, she
    goes.

    Accompanying Karen is Dr. Peter Elliot, a Berkeley
    anthropologist specializing in gorilla research, and his
    talking (via sign language) gorilla, Amy.  Elliot is described
    as a "skilled grantsman, who had long ago grown confortable
    with situations where other people's money and his own
    motivations did not exactly coincide."  At conferences where
    other participants wear sweaters and jeans, Elliot dresses in
    a three-piece suit.  Elsewhere, we are told that Elliot was a
    tough middle linebacker in college, but when things get bad
    later in the book, Elliot is described as "the typical
    scientist, immobilized by disaster."  Take your choice.

    Peter and Amy decide to join the Congo expedition on six
    hours' notice.  After all, you never know when a talking
    gorilla is going to come in handy on an African expedition.
    Karen introduces herself to Peter.  "I'm Dr. Ross," she says.
    (Why do scientists in novels always go around calling each
    other "Doctor?"  In all my years in engineering, no one has
    ever introduced themselves as "Dr. So-and-so."  Do MDs call
    each other doctor?)

    Now, Karen bids against a Euro-Japanese consortium for the
    services of the best African guide--the infamous Captain
    Munro.  Munro has all the standard background of smuggling,
    mercenary fighting, arms running, etc.  Moreover, believing in
    continuing education, he has "long been forced to learn Basic
    and TW/GESHUND and other major interactive languages."

    Of all the people in CONGO, only the Gorilla Amy is the least
    bit real.  Once again, we engineers and scientists come off as
    one-dimensional stereotypes.  Of course, we can forgive thin
    characterizations in the context of the exciting plot.  In
    this case, the plot is simply a technological remake of KING
    SOLOMON'S MINES, and it's agonizingly predictable.  It turns
    out that ERTS, as well as the rival consortium, is after the
    type II-B blue diamonds known(?) to be in the lost city of
    Zinj because of their special semi-conducting properties,
    reputed to be worth a fortune to ERTS's client company, Intec,
    of Santa Clara.

    Along the way, the expedition encounters opposition from the
    consortium, revolutionary activity, cannibals, pygmies,
    hippopotami, intelligent apes, erupting volcanoes, etc.  You
    name it; it's there.  I made a list in my mind and crossed
    them off as they happened--"Scratch the pygmy," I told myself,
    etc.

    Now, we come to my real complaint, which is the quantity of
    electronic misinformation.  I'm sure we engineers are used to
    science fiction novels.  Without a blush we accept faster-
    than-light drives and teleportation, and things like that.  In
    the science fiction context, that's all fine, but CONGO
    purports to be science fact, transparently disguised with a
    superficial plot, much as the vitamin pills Amy swallows in
    her milk.  As each new subject is introduced, Dr. Crichton
    gives us a nearly-pedantic lecture on it.  "On your left you
    see a Pygmy.  Now, Pygmies were first discovered by the
    Egyptian commander Herkonf...", etc.  To buttress all these
    lectures there's even a bibliography of 65 references at the
    end, including, for example, an IEEE Press volume on satellite
    communication.

    CONGO contains a lot of electronic description and lecturing,
    and unfortunately much of it is wrong and often outrageous.
    Some of it isn't bad, too, but few EEs could get through
    without a lot of groaning in the process.  In one lecture, Dr.
    Crichton gets carried away to the point of giving us
    electrical engineers a dire warning attributed to one Harvey
    Rumbaugh.  Rumbaugh predicts that the 1980s will be
    characterized by a critical shortage of computer data
    transmission systems, but worse yet (now brace yourself)
    "within 10 years electricity itself will become obsolete."
    Apparently, future computers will only use light circuits.
    "Light," Rumbaugh says, "moves at the speed of light.
    Electricity doesn't.  We are living in the final years of
    micro-electronic technology."
    Scary, isn't it!

    Here's a sampling of some of the electronic nonsense in CONGO.
    o  The satellite they use to transmit from Africa to Houston
       is at an altitude of 320 miles.
    o  Overnight, a programmer is able to write a program to
       discriminate gorillas from chimpanzees in digitized photos.
       (Impressive, isn't it?)
    o  In 1978, we reached the integration level of a million
       devices on an IC chip, with one billion expected about
       mid-1979.
    o  Jamming is broken by an "interstitial" technique based on
       the fact that even noise has to have brief periods of
       silence.
    o  A sunspot knocks out all satellite communication for a
       week.
    o  A fence around their campsite is electrified with 200 amps
       at 10 000 volts--battery powered, of course, out of those
       20-pound backpacks.
    o  Their very weak satellite transmitter only puts out 20 000
       watts.

    On the other hand, I believe all the lectures in CONGO about
    gorilla intelligence, animal law, volcanoes,etc.  Or should I?
    (Does a gorilla really have an IQ of 92?)  If computers are
    said to require color-corrected lights so as not to interfere
    with their circuits, how much of this other stuff can I
    believe?  Maybe right now an anthropologist is writing a
    scathing review of CONGO because of its misinformation on
    gorillas.

    Well, this is what we EEs get when we let our books be written
    by MDs like Dr. Crichton.  I doubt Dr. Crichton will be
    bothered much by this review.  He's an accomplished
    professional writer, and CONGO will be worth a considerable
    fortune to him.  Meanwhile, I'm reading up on diseases in
    preparation for the medical novel I'm currently working on.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #13
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 JUL 1981 0555-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #13
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Wed, 15 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Real Camelot & Islandia followup & Year's best SF,
          SF Movies - Raiders lead & Raiders bug & Bloopers,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1543-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: Leonard's Real Camelot Review...
To: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY

...was a delightful read.  Thank you very much for sending it in!
                                                --cat

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1627-EDT
From: KERN at RUTGERS
Subject: Followup on ISLANDIA Query

        My recent query about companion volumes to ISLANDIA (by Austin
Tappan Wright) yielded references to THE ISLAR, by Mark Saxton, and an
essay co-published  with the  1958(?) edition  of Islandia,  by  Basil
Davenport.  THE  ISLAR is  a sequel  to Islandia  set in  a period  of
turmoil; it is by no means as good as Islandia, but is probably  worth
reading.  If anyone  has further  information on  the Basil  Davenport
essay (title,  publisher, availability),  please  let me  know.   More
importantly, if  there is  any  word of  the  other half  of  ISLANDIA
(including M. Perrier's  History of Islandia)  having been  published,
please also send a message to KERN@RUTGERS.

Thanks,
-kbk

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 81 22:51-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-Unix
Subject: Best of the Year & Raiders

If you're like me and refuse to buy the various SF magazines and have
to wade through so much #$%&'" just to find a few gems, be sure to
plop down $3.50+tax for THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #10
edited by Terry Carr, now available.  Superb reading, as usual.

Just heard that the lead in Raiders was originally offered to Tom
Sellick (sp?), the actor who plays the lead in TV's Magnum P.I.  He
couldn't take it due to contractual problems and greatly regrets it
now.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1024-EDT
From: G.BLIC at MIT-EECS
Subject: Raider's Fly (no, not the zipper)

                The fly in the scene in RotLA :

                        a) crawls up Belloq's chin and into his mouth
                           to escape from the heat of the desert
                        b) crawls up onto Belloq's lip, and disgusted
                           by the foulsome odor of the bad bad
                           archaelogist, flies away
                        c) crawls up onto Belloq's lip and is promptly
                           sucked up by Renfield/Belloq because of the
                           latter's hunger
                        d) crawls up Belloq's chin then disappears

Choose one of the above.  I prefer d) since it is the easiest way out.

Does anyone really know?  Thanx to Weismann at Parc-Maxc, Greenwald at
Mit-Multics and Jwagner at Office for giving me opposing answers.

Smile in the sun...                                         --- arthur

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 09:36 PDT
From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Raiders' Fly (no, not the zipper)

I prefer
e) The fly crawls up onto Belloq's lip and is promptly sucked up
because of the latter's all-around general meanness.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1335-EDT
From: G.BLIC at MIT-EECS
Subject: Re: Raiders' Fly (no, not the zipper)

        One more note...

        Well, Belloq can't be all bad.  I think he actually did a good
        deed by slurping up the little devil, since flies are
        generally unwholesome plague creatures who could have
        transmitted yellow fever or something to our hero, Indiana
        Jones!  Of course, your answer is justified, since you are
        what you eat, aren't you?

                                                        ---arthur

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 2358-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Bloopers and movies

RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK was by no means the first movie to be "chock
full" of bloopers.  There was a classic scene in the movie CLEOPATRA
(I believe the date on it was 1968; don't hold me to this) with
Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor where a jet flew over them as they
were playing Mark Anthony and Cleopatra in ancient Egypt.

--Lynn

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/15/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They reveal events
in the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who have not
seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 2344-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: RotLA:  SPOILER

On KQED (SF bay area Public Television) there is a program called
VideoWest, which focused a bit on Lucas Spielberg this week.  While
the people droned on, they showed clips, whose major point of interest
were that most of them had been left on the cutting room floor.  For
example, it showed Indiana Jones on the conning tower of the
submarine, and it showed IJ fighting the Arabic Swordsman with his
whip.  From what has been said about the difficulty in filming this
scene, I guess they tried it, retried it, re-retried it, ad nauseum,
until they decided to shoot him instead for the sake of the shooting
schedule.  And I thought that the look of resignation on IJ's face
when confronted with the swordsman was acting, it must have been real.
Perhaps it was a 'blooper' that looked better than the real one?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 18:19 PDT
From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Shooting of Arabic sword master in RotLA

The "Rolling Stone" interview with Harrison Ford says that after long
agonizing about the time spent on another fight scene, Ford suggested
to Spielberg "Let's just shoot the bastard." or equiv.

Definitely one of my favorite scenes...   -Larry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 09:42:53-EDT
From: cfh at CCA-UNIX (Christopher Herot)
Subject: RotLA/Shooting of Arabic Sword Master
The audience in Boston also applauded the shooting.  I don't think
that this has much to do with any preference for ancient vs. modern or
east vs. west.  Instead, it results from the viewers' glee at seeing
the flagrant violation of a hackneyed Hollywood convention.  When the
swordsman appears menacingly tossing the sword from hand to hand, we
are set up to see Indiana Jones stupidly throw down his gun and fight
the swordsman with his whip (bare hands, etc.).

Instead, Jones does what any sane person (and no movie character)
would do - he shoots the guy.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 Jul 1981 17:17-PDT
From: chris at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Raiders -- Spoiler?

I think that one reason the incident with the Arab sword master comes
off so well is that you have been very carefully prepared for it in
Star Wars.  Indiana Jones makes several ambiguous comments about
believing or not believing in the real power of the Ark as derived
from its Biblical background, but he still trusts his gun--he throws
it in on top of the suitcase just before he climbs on the Clipper for
Tibet.  And the scene with the sword fighter is the justification of
Han Solo's claim about preferring a good blaster over ancient swords
and hokey religions:  a blaster has greater range.  In Star Wars, the
right answer is Luke's:  the sword is more important, because the
battle is for control of the Force, and must be fought with the
Force's weapons.  In Raiders, Indiana has no crusade to justify his
own cause or to fight against at the same level, and the Han Solo in
his character gets to use his gun.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 12:19:01-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RotLA (spoiler!) burns and sword shooting

   Sue has a good point about the Ark refusing to be owned by a
\\political// entity; part of the Old Testament mythos is that the
Jews were all descended from Abraham through Jacob, making them a
"people" (i.e., family) while everyone else was merely associated.  (A
[transliteration] of the first line of psalm 2 runs "Lama ragashu
goyim"; while we're used to hearing "goy" simply as "non-Jew" this has
been translated as both "nations" (cf. the bass aria "Why do the
Nations Rage" in Handel's MESSIAH) and "heathen" (plural implied)
(setting by Schutz of the text in German).)  For those of you who have
read CAT'S CRADLE, this is analogous to saying "we're a karass, and
you all belong to granfalloons".
   Jones shooting the swordmaster:  this has gotten cheers on the east
coast as well.  I saw it primarily as Jones being fed up and not
wanting to have to bother with a showoff.  I would also see in it a
possible borrowing from the climactic scene of WIZARDS---remember
Avatar pulling the revolver out of his sleeve as Blackwolf works
himself into a sorcerous fury?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 81 5:05:15-EDT (Tue)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: RotLA

        The question regarding the rats' behavior in the "Bantu
Wind's" hold is an interesting one, especially since the book is of no
help, mentioning only that the rats heard the Ark's humming and were
afraid of it.  It is interesting to note that though in the film the
rats appear to die, they are perhaps just stunned by the noise (high
frequencies can be VERY painful to the listener if these are sustained
for a while).  Had they died, then the audience should have seen their
bodies when the Germans found the crate in the hold.
        It is interesting, and a little sad, to note that the
marvelous scene during which Indy faces the Arab swordsman was
dictated simply by the crew not wanting to spend another five days on
a fight scene, or by the decision not to follow one intricate fight
with another (a common mistake of most martial arts films, by the
way).  The book does not even mention a scene similar to this, but
then, such additions or alterations are what often serve to make the
shooting script outstanding.  The scene, though it could have been
avoided, ultimately became one of the most memorable ones in this
fabulous movie, and was certainly the one scene which the Baltimore
audience seems to have enjoyed the most (second place goes to the
horse chase scene:  it took courage and good horsemanship to gallop
down that steep incline!).
        Though the Swordsman scene is relatively simple in what is
ultimately accomplished, it is thanks to Mr. Ford's abilities as an
actor and to the unexpected juxtapositioning of how Jones is expected
to deal with the problem versus how he actually does, that the scene
works.  Having observed Indy in the past, the audience expects him to
use either the whip or his hands to fight the swordsman.  Though Indy
carries a gun, he does not seem to be one to use it even if his
opponent tries to use one (remember the scene at the beginning where
Barranca unholsters his gun?  Indy uses his whip to disarm the man).
The audience has evidence that Indy will probably favor using the whip
to deal with this new oponent.  However, the camera goes in for a
close-up of Mr. Ford to show the audience the "Not another?!"
expression on his face.  Then follows the shooting of the opponent, an
act that has been established as being a practical necessity.  The
audience reacts because it is the obvious solution to the problem
(what would you do if you'd just fought a whole bunch of hooligans and
had been beaten up?), but they have been fooled into believing that
Indy would never do this.
        In short, I am skeptical that the audience's reaction to this
scene is solely due to their probable preference of guns over
antiquated weapons, though I must admit that almost any police officer
or gun enthusiast would be horrified at Indy's apparent reluctance to
use what appears to be a rather beautiful .38 revolver.  I'd guess
it's an S&W model ten, but I'm not sure they had those back in '36.
However, I'm willing to wager that the calibre is not smaller than a
.38 and it doesn't seem as though the calibre would be any larger
either.  Weapons in the '30's weren't that different from what they
are now.  However, another thing I'm reasonably sure of is that the
grips were customized.
        Indy's journey with the German submarine is a very interesting
issue indeed.  The book only tells that he tied himself to the
periscope with his whip for the duration.  It does not hint at how
long the trip was, though Indy spent most of it sleeping or dozing.
This is not at all helpful this time, since in the film Indy's whip is
nowhere to be seen once he boards the "Bantu Wind".  Furthermore, the
whip is not with him in the scene where one of Katanga's men discovers
him on the sub.  Therefore, the movie leaves it up to the individual's
imagination to devise a method by which Indy safely made the trip.
        Another disturbing aspect about the submarine ride is the fact
that the German captain gave the order to dive once all were aboard.
The book makes it clear that the vessel remained at periscope depth
throughout the journey, but that is not really clear from the movie.
My understanding of the matter is that diesel subs (those were the in
thing back in the '30's when it came to subs, especially for the
Germans) ran on the surface most of the journey so that they could
conserve their batteries for occassions when they had to run submerged
either to engage in combat or to escape.  However, it would have been
nice if there were an indication of this somewhere along its route.
This route also seemed quite long: probably a couple of days' worth.
        By this time, the audience knows that Indy is a resourceful
fellow.  If the sub did in fact behave like a normal '30's sub, making
most of the trip on the surface, it is more likely than not that Indy
found some way to stow himself away more comfortably for a part of the
journey.  Since the film and the book only deal with situation during
which something extraordinary or exciting enough to share with the
audience/reader happens to Indy, one might assume that whatever he did
for most of the journey was probably an uneventful repeat of hiding in
some outlandish spot such as the one that served him as refuge aboard
the "Bantu Wind".  Furthermore, one may well assume that nothing of
interest befell Indy during this time, so that it is not worthwhile to
describe or show it.  Similar reasoning could be used to explain how
he and Marian got off the island and back to the States with the Ark
in tow.  I can see Indy managing it by himself, but Marian would have
been terribly conspicuous in a German uniform since women did not
serve in the Wehrmacht in the thirties.
        This is a problem I prefer not to scrutinize too closely so as
not to spoil the overall effect of the film.  Surely each viewer can
call upon his/her imagination and precedent set by the film, to get
Indy out of those undocumented scrapes.
                Sue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #14
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 JUL 1981 0623-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #14
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Thu, 16 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:
                         SF Books - Islandia,
    SF Topics - That does not compute & Pest aside & Cancer cure?,
             SF Movies - Backward reference & Bloopers &
        Yet another Raiders pun & Escape From New York query &
                Revenge of the Jedi & Lucas' Skywalker
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 1641-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: Islandia

My trade paperback edition of ISLANDIA includes a foreword by the
author's daughter.  She says that it was cut by about a third, most of
the cutting from the first half of the book, because it was too long
(paper shortage as you mentioned) and because it was too slow (too
many descriptive passages).  She also says that her father left a
bunch of other ISLANDIA material which has yet to be published,
including a big history of Islandia with lists of all the officials,
etc (this is Perrier's History).  Books in Print has nothing about it,
unfortunately.
                                        --cat

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1646-EDT
From: SWG at MIT-XX
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V3 #158

Everyone seems satisfied with the answer that "That does not compute"
originated in the TV series /Lost in Space/.  However, my memory tells
me that the phrase was used by the robot woman in /My Living Doll/.
This series, starring Bob Cummings and Julie Newmar, lasted only for
the 1964-65 season, while /Lost in Space/ ran during 1965-68.  Thus
/MLD/ should get credit for inventing that sentence.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 14:18 PDT
From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: reality mimics sf

the San Francisco Chronicle reported this morning that one of the
medfly officials offered to drink a glass of dilute malathion to prove
its non-toxic effects -- which reminds me of a scene in John Brunner's
Sheep Look Up where a chemical industry representative offers to eat a
teaspoonful of some pesticide on national tv (though it turns out
later to have been sugar).
Steve

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 15 July 1981, 07:11-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: You're not going to believe this...

According to my trusty FM radio station's morning news, researchers at
some random (mid west?) hospital/university have announced a blood
test which picks out a cancer-specific protein, and is 96% effective
in identifying MOST MAJOR FORMS OF CANCER.  Now then, given that this
is true (they probably got it off the AP or NYT feed), what effect
will this have on the current cancer outlook?  Will it be like the TB
tine test which has virtually eliminated TB by early detection, or
will it be just an additional diagnostic tool, with no real impact on
the cure rate?  (One can envision a twice yearly "cancer check".)

                                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 07/15/81 18:15:28
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark - numbers

I couldn't find THX-1138 or any combination of that anywhere - but the
number on the plane (River Scene) ends with 3CPO.

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1981 04:41-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>

Shade and Sweet water to you,
        Burt Reynolds has used out-takes at the end of other movies.
I am 99 and 44/100% sure that he had some at the end of Smokey and the
Bandit (I don't remember which one).  Actually, I think it makes an
interesting change from the 2 types of credits you usually see.

        A) Credits over VERY low action scene, summing up film's point
(RotLA).

        B) Credits over still frame/patterned background (mostly older
films for the later).

        Not to forget the classic Monty Python sketch:

        "Well, we have the quick blackout-"

        "No no, that won't do."

        "Well, how about the fadeout as the voice slowly fades..."
                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 (Tuesday) 0958-EST
From: DYER at NBS-10
Subject: RotLA in alternate universes

        A struggling young artist living in a deserted barn has his
work reviewed by art critics in :
                RATERS OF THE LOFT ART

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1857-EDT
From: Rob Stanzel <CPR.ROB at MIT-XX>
Subject: Escape from New York

Say, has anyone seen the movie (I think it's called) Escape from New
York?  It looks a little trashy, but I'd be interested in people's
opinion of it.
        -fRob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 08:20:27-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

                  from "Variety", July 8, 1981

   Hollywood, July 7:  Lawrence Kasdan, who co-wrote "The Empire
Strikes Back" with the late Leigh Brackett, has been signed to pen the
third episode of the "Star Wars" saga, "Revenge of the Jedi", with the
film's exec producer George Lucas, who conceived the story.
   Kasdan, who recently completed his first film as a director, "Body
Heat", also wrote Lucas' current hit "Raiders of the Lost Ark" as well
as the upcoming "Continental Divide".
   To be produced by Howard Kazanjian and directed by Richard
Marquand, "Jedi" will commence principal photography January, 1982 at
EMI Elstree Studios in England, with locationing set for Germany,
North Africa and the UK.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 1951-PDT
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Lucas Article and EFNY query?

In Monday, July 13th's \New York Times/, (p. c-11) Aljean Harmetz has
a very interesting article about Lucas and Lucasfilm's new studio/town
called Lucas Valley (Northern CA) --it was called Lucas valley before
he was born.  It is 6 columns wide so I won't reproduce it here but a
couple of interesting tidbits...

--> The director for "Revenge of the Jedi" is a little-known English
    director, Richard Marquand
    Production begins Jan. 13, 1982
--> One reason for choosing a British director is Lucas' disdain for
    the Hollywood establishment...he just recently resigned from the
    Writer's and Director's Guild (it turns out that one does not have
    to be in the Writer's guild for his "based on a story" credit for
    RotLA...  His resignation from the Director's Guild came because
    the guild fined him for placing the director's credit at the end
    of TESB, even though Irvin Kershner, the director he had chosen
    for "Empire", did not object

EFNY==> "Escape from New York" (sorry, I just couldn't resist!) is
John Carpenter's ("Halloween", "The Fog") new film about New York in
1997...  Has anyone seen it yet?  (it opened nationwide last Friday).
The \Times/ and the \Village Voice/ gave it reasonable marks...
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 1349-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Lucas

BC-LUCAS
By ALJEAN HARMETZ
c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service
    Los Angeles - Day by day, month by month, George Lucas has been
cutting the ropes that bind him to Hollywood.  Ironically, the creator
of such quintessentially Hollywood entertainments as "Star Wars" and
"Raiders of the Lost Ark" has always been painfully ill at ease among
the deal-makers in three-piece suits and sharks in designer blue jeans
who muscle their way to success in the movie industry.  "A foreign
country," he has called Hollywood.  And now he has gone home for good.
    Earlier this month, Lucasfilms closed its offices across the
street from Universal Studios and moved to temporary quarters in San
Rafael, half an hour's drive north of San Francisco.  The key in the
lock was the final gesture, but George Lucas has been shedding his
Hollywood clothing for more than a year.  After quietly resigning from
the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, which had nominated
him as best writer and director for "American Graffiti" and "Star
Wars," he tore up his membership cards in the Writers Guild and
Directors Guild this spring.
    He can no longer write or direct his movies, but, then, he neither
needs nor wants to do either.  An enigma in tennis shoes, white cords
and a neatly trimmed, graying beard, the 37-year-old former director
says simply, "I don't have to work for a living anymore."  Together,
"Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" have sold over $900 million
worth of tickets.  Since "The Empire Strikes Back" was completely
financed by Lucas from the profits of "Star Wars," Lucasfilm has
earned $60 million in film rentals from the movie; it has earned
nearly $10 million more through merchandising the characters and
artifacts of the two films.
    Lucas, whose personal life is austere and almost reclusive, has,
it would seem, the Midas touch.  Of his five films, only "More
American Graffiti" was a commercial failure.  "Raiders of the Lost
Ark" - a film on which he was executive producer and for which he was
co-author of the original story, neither function requiring a guild
membership - has earned more than $55 million in its first 32 days and
is likely to spawn several sequels and to stock three or four shelves
in every neighborhood toy store for the next few years.
    "George is a genius," says Ashley Boone, his marketing consultant.
"But the real key to George is that he is completely and utterly
unaffected by razzamatazz, show biz and money."
    Sitting in an unpretentious office adjacent to his special-effects
company, Industrial Light and Magic, which has been headquartered in
San Rafael for nearly three years, Lucas points south.  "Down there,"
he is inclined to say of Hollywood, "down there, for every honest true
film maker trying to get his film off the ground, there are a hundred
sleazy used-car dealers trying to con you out of your money."
    He has lived and worked in Northern California almost since his
graduation from the University of Southern California Film School in
1966.  He dreams of "having film making diversified across the country
so that every film maker isn't locked into thinking the same stale
ideas."
    Lucas already has the luxury of creating for himself a world in
which he finds it satisfying to live.  It is an odd mixture of the
19th and 21st centuries and he is building it on a 3,000-acre ranch in
a Northern California valley that was, by coincidence, named Lucas
Valley long before George Lucas was born.  Driving down the winding
valley road on a day so hot that the steering wheel is painful to
touch, he looks out at the yellow hills and jokes, "We have two
seasons here - the green season and the yellow season."
    He loves the stifling heat, having grown up in the dusty valley
town of Modesto, where summer days were 110 degrees.
    On a country road outside Modesto, one day in his 17th year, his
own turning point came.  "I was making a left turn and a guy ran into
me.  When I was pulled out, they thought I was dead.  I wasn't
breathing and I had no heartbeat.  I had two broken bones and crushed
lungs.  The accident coincided with my graduation from high school, a
natural turning point.  Before the accident, I never used to think.
Afterward, I realized I had to plan if I was ever to be happy."
    His $10 million plan - now one-third completed - is to build a
working retreat for film makers, an environment for creating on
celluloid, which he has offered to share with such writers and
directors as Hal Barwood and Matthew Robbins, John Korty, Michael
Ritchie, Philip Kaufman and others.  "A lot of rock groups build
backyard recording studios because they like to work at home.  I'm
building a back-yard film studio," he teases.

    Lucas is a sober, serious man, and the joke - unusual for him - is
a measure of his pride in his Skywalker Ranch.  Pride wars with the
intense privacy he wears like a cloak - and wins.  "From the valley
floor, we own everything in sight," he announces.  "We own over the
crest of that mountain.  It's a totally controlled environment, and
it's designed so that no building is visible from any other building."
In fact, 95 percent of the land will be left in its natural state.
    Through a redwood forest, over a newly built wood bridge, is a
Victorian village - octagonal buildings with casement windows and
stained glass, tongue-and-groove oak paneling that can rarely be found
in homes less than 80 years old, gables, cupolas, immense flagstone
fireplaces - all of the quaint, eccentric buildings painted ice-cream
white and blueberry gray.  There are meadows of wild flowers
everywhere, and the 10th deer of the morning grazes on a hillside
clotted with the frail orange petals of California poppies.  The
swimming pool and tennis court and gymnasium haven't been built yet,
but the 10-foot-deep, three-acre lake is finished and stocked with
trout.
    Below the lazy 19th-century landscape, in the basements of the
quaint buildings, lie the conduits and wires, the circuits and
computers of the 21st century.  Those cellar computers will run the
washing machines, sweep the 3,000 acres with closed-circuit television
and control the electronically operated gates that defend the roads
from strangers.
    In a year when another space movie, "Star Trek," cost $42 million,
the final budget of "The Empire Strikes Back" was $22 million,
including several million dollars worth of permanent equipment for
Industrial Light and Magic.  A cautious, frugal man who likes his tuna
fish sandwich on white bread with the crust off and is in bed by 9:30
at night, Lucas is, paradoxically, willing to spend time and money for
the sake of principle and has defended any number of annoyance
lawsuits that might have been settled less expensively out of court.
    His associates speak of his humility, but he can be arrogant about
his values and priorities, partly because, as one of his associates
says:  "The vision inside his head is crystal clear.  That he can not
be turned from it or corrupted by outside influences is the key to his
success."  His resignation from the Directors Guild came because the
guild fined him for placing the director's credit at the end of "The
Empire Strikes Back," even though Irvin Kershner, the director he had
chosen for "Empire," did not object.  For "The Revenge of the Jedi,"
the third "Star Wars" movie, which begins production next Jan. 13 in
England, he has selected a little-known English director, Richard
Marquand, who does not belong to the American guild.
    He picks up a clod of warm, dry dirt - the bedrock of his empire -
and fondles it with his fingers.  "As opposed to Hollywood, where the
film makers support the corporate entity, Lucasfilm will support the
overhead of the ranch," he says.  "We'll make money out of the money
by buying real estate, cable, satellite, solar energy - without buying
anything we're ashamed of, like pesticides - and then the corporation
will give us the money to make films."
    A quarter of a mile away, a hawk swoops down on his prey in the
dug-out bowl that will form the basement of the 43,000-square-foot
main house.  "Four to six years from now," he continues, "we'll have
all the crucial amenities for film makers - screening rooms, mixing
rooms, editing rooms, automated dialogue recording, a film research
library and a place to sit and think.
    "I've never made a picture in Hollywood," he adds.  "Now I'll
never have to."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #15
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 JUL 1981 0820-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #15
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Fri, 17 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:
                     SF Topics - Mysticism in SF,
             SF Movies - Blooper correction & Star Trek &
        Raiders in an alternate universe & Raiders' lead role,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1981 22:09:30-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
Subject: Mysticism in Science Fiction

Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI> makes the statement that "real
mysticism is often pompous and condescending, infatuated with its own
profundity."  The main reason that books by mystics are frequently
unreadable is that the mystical experience is very difficult to
communicate.  Mysticism (real mysticism, not Churchward or von Daniken
or other charlatans) is much like love -- you know what you have
experienced, but try to explain it to someone who has not.

St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" is one of the greatest
works on one particular aspect of the mystical experience (how you
feel when you have experienced the particular closeness with the
universe that comes from the mystical experience, then you lose the
feeling, and you despair of ever getting it back), but to someone who
doesn't have a visceral feeling for what he is writing about, it is
meaningless and boring.

Sorry about this flame, but mysticism has received a bad name which it
doesn't really deserve.  Many people connect it with quack theories
(e.g.: astral travel), instead of the Zen Masters, John of the Cross,
the Sufis, the Hassidim, et al.  I once had a friend of mine, a
practicing Orthodox Jew (BTW, I am Catholic) try to tell me that the
Baal Shem Tov (the founder of the Hassidic movement) was not a mystic,
while I argued that he was, and it turned out that we were in complete
agreement about just what his religious ideas were.

                                May your god go with you,
                                John

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1981 20:42 edt
From: Frankston at MIT-Multics (Bob Frankston)
Subject: Re: Bloopers and movies

It was the Ten Commandments that had the jet plane.

------------------------------
Date: 13-JUL-1981 18:54
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: COORS::VICKREY
Subject: Star Trek: The 2nd Motion Picture

     George Takei (Sulu) was a guest at StarCon 81 in Denver over the
4th of July weekend, and he had several announcements to make about
Star Trek.

     Takei told appreciative audiences that ALL Star Trek regulars
have been told to keep October 81 free for filming the next ST movie.
Currently, the planned release date is next summer.  The script for
the movie is frozen in re-write, thanks to the Writer's Guild strike,
but it is definitely supposed to concentrate on more character
development.  Producer for Star Trek: The 2nd Motion Picture will be
Harve Bennett (the man who gave us SALVAGE I).  Gene Roddenberry will
be available as consultant.

     So far, the only actors who have signed a contract are Shatner
and Nimoy, but everyone else who is available will do the movie.
According to Takei, plans include using the sets built for ST:TMP,
which are still set up in locked (and guarded) soundstages at
Paramount.  Costumes are under discussion (the new producer wants the
technicolor effect back).

     Two other items of interest:  Leonard Nimoy is trying to talk
Roddenberry into killing off Spock in this movie.  Takei said that
Nimoy feels the influence of Spock is inhibiting his career growth and
that killing Spock off will free him (like an exorcism).  (Also, he IS
Spock, and he doesn't want anybody else to PLAY him.)  Roddenberry is
trying to talk Nimoy into letting Spock go off somewhere (like a desk
job on some planet, or maybe some kind of hibernation, Vulcan-style),
so that if Nimoy changes his mind 5 years from now, he can come back.
Personally, I don't think killing off Spock is going to disassociate
him from Nimoy.  Comments?

     Second, sadly, Jimmy Doohan (Scotty) had a coronary in early
June.  Takei said that he was recovering very well from it.  He is
back home, but his physical activity is still restricted.  If his
recovery continues to be good, he will be in the movie, but his role
will be re-written to accomodate his condition.

     Goody bonus:  Takei described the shuttle roll-out of the
Enterprise, which all of the ST people attended.  Senator Barry
Goldwater in his role as chairman of a Senate committee (I forget
which one) was doing the speech, and at one point, he made a reference
to pointy-eared aliens.  Evidently he didn't know the ST people were
there (they were sitting in the second row of the audience).  At that
point, Leonard Nimoy stood up and said "Mr. Senator, I AM HERE!"
Goldwater, startled, looked at this person who had interrupted him and
then suddenly recognised Nimoy.  The golden-tongued senator pointed to
Nimoy and said something to the effect of:  "...uh....duh....ooh!...
aahh!!..  ...SPOCK!!!" before he got over the shock.  He then paid
tribute to the contributions of Star Trek, in the middle of which he
realised that the rest of the cast and crew were there, too.  After
that, the senator gave up and stopped referring to science fiction
completely.

Regards,
Susan Vickrey

------------------------------

Date: 15 July 1981 19:20-EDT
From: Matthew Jody Lecin <MJL at MIT-MC>
Subject: Alternate RotLA

Harrison Ford as the intrepid Marlin Perkins of Mutual of Omaha, in:

        Rooters for the Last Auk.

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 16-Jul-81 2:41-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: "Raiders" in an alternate universe

As long as exercising the sound-distortion circuitry is all the rage,
I shall have to demonstrate the depths of agony to which we may lead
ourselves in pursuing this path.  To wit, an educational film on the
fine points of engraving:

        Routers of the Lowest Torque

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 81 14:44:36-EDT (Wed)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: RotLA

        There have been some rumors that TV actor Tom Sellick was
first choice to play Indiana Jones.  Strangely enough, those who say
that he was first choice drop the subject at that, never stating why
he did not accept the part.  The explanation that there were
"contractual" problems is a wonderful one in that it excuses a lot and
few will question the vagueness.  Somehow, I don't see Sellick as
Jones....  just not the right type.
        Similarly, there is the counter-rumor which denies that
Harrison Ford was anything but the first choice for Indy.  It is a
good thing that Mr. Ford was (finally) cast for the part, since it
gives the audience a chance to appreciate his range of acting ability.
He should have been a natural first choice for the part since he
gracefully bridges the differences between Jones the professor and
Jones the adventurer.
        Ultimately, it would be very interesting to hear from an
authoritative source which of the two rumors that have been spread by
fanzines and other magazines, is actually correct.
                Sue

------------------------------
MDP@MIT-AI 7/17/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
details of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 (Wednesday) 1145-EDT
From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager)
Subject: Raiders and P.I.s

Funny you should mention the bit about Magnum being offered the part.
After seeing RotLA I came away feeling that James Garner would have
been better in the part.  Some of the expressions that Jones puts on
(esp. before he shoots the arab (I would call it more like "Oh, come
on, cut me a break" than "not another")) and the theatrical puns in
that films are straight out of the Rockford Files.  BTW: The executive
producer of the Rockford Files (one of my altime favorite programs) is
"Meta Rosenberg" -- does that mean that there is an actual Rosenberg
around somewhere?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 1924-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: RotLA spoiler: ending

In reading the recent discussion on the very end where the Ark is
stored, it occurred to me that maybe Lucas is saying that being stored
anonymously in an immense government warehouse is the contemporary
equivalent to being buried in the Well of Souls.  Then again, maybe
not.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 15 July 1981  18:29-EDT
From: Pat O'Donnell <PAO at MIT-EECS>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #13  --  Indy Jones and horsemanship.

    horse chase scene:  (it took courage and good horsemanship to
    gallop down that steep incline!).
Yes it would take a good rider to perform this feat, but
"horsemanship" implies caring for one's mount.  A horseman does
\\not// gallop his mount down a steep incline.  (Try running down one.
It hurts.)  I will grant that Indy's situation was exceptional, but if
he treated his horse so poorly, he might not have been able to keep
after the truck had Indy (perish the thought) mistimed his
interception.

Fortunately, the descent was not at a gallop.  It was a pretty fast
walk.  Nevertheless, it caused me to wince in empathy with the poor
steed.
------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 1013-PDT
From: Moock at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Swordsman scene in RotLA

        The scene in RotLA of Jones and the Swordsman is similar to a
scene in The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean (in true sf-l tradition,
heretofore referred to as tLaToJRB - don't you just love it?).  Roy
Bean is an oddball judge in this lawless western town, when his
arch-nemesis Bad Bill rides in.  He jumps off his horse, walks up to a
pot of boiling coffee on an open fire, and chugs it barehanded (just
to show how BAD he is).  He then walks down the main street, calling
Roy Bean, proclaiming all the tortures and agonizing methods he is
going to use to kill him, and all the disgusting ways he will
desecrate his body afterwards.  While he is shouting his grand and
colorful soliloquiy to an apparantly empty (at least of Roy Bean)
town, a loft door in a barn behind him opens up, with Roy Bean aiming
at him with a rifle.  Our hero then blows him in half in midsentence.


                                        Cute, eh?

                -- Tom

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 14:10:17-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark: flies and guns (spoiler)

I concur that most audiences enjoyed the shooting of the sword master
because is was an unexpected explosion of a cliche.  I was just
interested in noting how large the reaction was to the destruction of
that specific cliche.

Also:  The Famous Fly
The fly is crawling on Belloq's lip, and in the next instant it is
gone.  Nobody has ever seen a single frame with it flying away.  Now
flies are fast, but could one get away so fast that nobody would see
it?  If the fly had really gone into his mouth, there is no way the
actor could have continued his speech with a straight face (I think).
Thus we must conclude that the editors left the fly in, but
deliberately spliced a few frames out of it flying away.  A friend of
mine says he noticed a small jump at this point in the flick, and this
could be it.

The other answer is that Industrial Light and Magic, the Lucas SFX
company animated the fly in, just to spark discussion on the net.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1981 1122-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: RotLA -- guns, rats and flies !!spoiler!!

Sue's wonderful analysis of Raiders of the Lost Ark raises a few
questions.  First, there's the matter of Indy's gun.  It seemed to
resemble something larger than a .38-caliber revolver -- it reminded
me of this .44-caliber hand-held cannon a police officer friend of
mine once kept under his pillow.  Can any handgun experts identify the
exact make and model of Indy's gun?

As to Sue's hypothesis of the rats in the hold of the Bantu Wind being
merely stunned by a prolonged, high-frequency sound:  it seemed to me
that the rats were indeed dead, so when the Germans discovered the
Ark, the floor of the hold should have been littered with little rat
corpses.  Aha -- another mistake!!

That fly crawling around on Belloq's lip during the desert scene may
shed some light on the meaning of the Ark-opening scene.  Some of us
here in Santa Clara County Ca., more recently known as Club Med-fly,
believe that the fly is one of the Mediterranean variety.  Belloq
indeed swallows the pest and becomes infested with maggots.  After
studying the situation, we have concluded that the wrath created by
the opening of the Ark is simply heavenly malathion, aimed not at
Belloq but at the fly's larval progeny.  The poor Germans are simply
victims of overspray.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1981 at 2355-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RotLA RESPONSES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Because the action in the film was at such a breakneck pace (and the
view from the 3rd row also being neck-breaking), there was just a lot
of what happened I'm just not at all certain of.  It would seem that
some of the queries that have arisen might be answered in the
novelization.  Unfortunately, I'm too penurious to invest in it until
I can get it 2nd hand.  Meanwhile...

The "succubus-like wraith that emerged from the Ark" mentioned by bch
at Berkeley particularly caught my attention because it struck me as a
possible reference to Disney's classic, FANTASIA-- the "Night on Bald
Mountain" segment.  It seems an oddly unholy element to copy into a
"holy" context, but the similarity is striking.  Any comments, pro or
con?

David Dyer-Bennet's difficulty with the length of the sub's trip may
be based on a misapprehension.  Surely it wasn't oceanic, but in the
eastern Mediterranean where islands are not uncommon, so it needn't
have been any great distance.

As for Brad Templeton's dour opinion that the audience reaction to the
shooting of the Arab sword-master is a sad comment on our modern
society-- I think he totally missed the point of WHY audiences find it
hilarious and laudable.  It IS "a comment on our modern society", tho
not in the way he implies.

It's funny because of the unexpectedness, and the simplicity of the
solution to a very fancily-presented danger.  As for the applause, our
modern society is notorious in favoring underdogs and in doting on
seeing the ostentatious and conceited get deflated.  That scene was an
utter natural for top response.  How serependipitous for it to have
happened by default.  \I/ assumed it was just Lucas' genius at work,
as usual.

And, speaking of Lucas usual genius-- after seeing CLASH OF THE TITANS
and DRAGONSLAYER with their youthful-heroes-learning-to-cope-with-
Great-Power, the casting of Mark Hamill is looking better than ever.
When I first saw STAR WARS, Mark didn't impress me at all.  He was
such an \ordinary/ teen-age kid.  I didn't realize what an
accomplishment in believability that impression was!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-JUL  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #16
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 JUL 1981 1051-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #16
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 18 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:
                     SF TV - Asimov in TV Guide,
SF Fandom - Rocky Horror convention, SF Topics - That does not compute,
          SF Movies - Escape from New York & Lucas no-film &
            Alternate universe Raiders & Raiders fly bug,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1981 14:04:02-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: TV Guide

It may interest some to note that Isaac Asimov's byline appears on the
commentary column in this week's TV Guide.  The column condemns
censorship, and is overly pedantic (even for Asimov) in my opinion.

------------------------------

Date: 14 July 1981 04:12-EDT
From: Risto L. Sjogren <RVS at MIT-AI>
Subject: What goes on at a con

This is a report on the "Third Annual Transylvanian Convention", held
on 12 July down in Anaheim.  As can be deduced from its name, it was a
`Rocky Horror' convention (actually billed as a 6-hour Rocky Horror
Party).  There was the usual group of dealers dealing Rocky
collectibles, and a fairly unusual array of films ("Chainsaw Chicks",
"Clown Whores of Hollywood", "Night of the Loving Dead", etc.), along
with some live entertainment (fan groups performing RHPS in its
entirety).  Sal Piro (president of the officially recognized fan club)
was there to give a presentation on "Shock Treatment", the RHPS
`sequel' (not really a sequel - more on ST in a later contribution).
The afternoon was pretty fun for RH fans, although I suppose `virgins'
would have been somewhat confused.  The costume contest brought out
some very well done costumes, and Sal Piro's rendition of "Toucha
Toucha Touch Me" was quite remarkable (with Piro playing Janet, of
course).  The Con was even covered by "Real People", probably to be
shown around October on the episode on Halloween week.

                        -Sam

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1981 1451-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: Does not compute

certainly was used frequently on Lost in Space.  I think it was used
in a Star Trek episode -- not by the Enterprise computer -- (the
second Mudd episode?) and this is why people remembered it from that
show.  Can anyone verify this and identify the episode?
                                                --cat

------------------------------

Date: 16 July 1981 10:35 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Escape From New York

I saw the movie at a 'sneak preview' a couple of Fridays ago.  Never
occurred to me to send comment to SFL, cause it isn't much of SF.

The film is worth seeing for the set, lighting, and misc. characters.
I found little interesting in the main actors (Kurt Russel, Adrienne
Barbeau, Isaac Hayes.), and the plot is totally implausible.  Big deal
- the loonies running NY are great to see.

There have been several fine novels about closed prison societies
(Hawksbill Station, the Status Civilization), but EFNY isn't one.  No
attempt to derive a coherent or interesting sociology of the prison.

But the grungy degenerate 1997's punks!!!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1981 1414-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Escape from New York

EfNY is not bad -- I think I'd recommend seeing it, although it may
depend on your normal likes and dislikes.  If you like Clint Eastwood,
you'll probably like this movie.  The ending is great!  Hero wins
fight against all the bad guys, then...but that would be telling.
Much of it was filmed here in St. Louis (because it looked more
bombed-out that the real New York!), and even recognizing most of the
sets/locations didn't get in the way of enjoying the action.

Rich
"I am not a man, I am a free number."

------------------------------

Date: 17 July 1981 12:11 edt
From: Greenwald.CompNet at MIT-Multics
Subject: Escape from New York

        Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!  I saw Escape from New York last night
and will not waste your time saying more than it is one of the most
poorly executed movies in the past 2 decades.
        (Aside from just being a bad film, there are also so many
holes in the plot, mistakes, technological blunders that it would fill
issues and issues and issues of SFL to even begin to enumerate them
all.  I should have left when they started talking about the 69th
Street Bridge...)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1981 11:19 PDT
From: Hamachi at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Escape From New York

"Escape From New York", a movie
     Directed by John Carpenter ("The Fog", "Halloween"),
     Written by John Carpenter and Nick Castle,
     Produced by Larry Franco and Debra Hill,
Starring
     Kurt Russell               "Snake"
     Lee Van Cleef              The Warden
     Ernest Borgnine            Cabbie
     Donald Pleasence           The President of the United States
     Isaac Hayes                The Duke of New York
     Harry Dean Stanton         "Brain"
     Adrienne Barbeau           Maggie

Centi-review:  A cheap movie that turns out to be amusing and quite
     worth seeing.

Deci-review:  "Escape from New York" has the look of a good
     made-for-TV movie.  It is a slap in the face of the big, wormy
     apple.  For a while it is hard to tell that the film is the
     finely crafted comedy that it is.

The plot:  The year is 1997.  The island of Manhattan has been turned
     into a walled prison.  Air Force One, carrying the president of
     the United States, crashes within the prison.  The President,
     carrying information vital to the current peace negotiations, is
     taken hostage by the Duke of New York.  The Duke is "'A'-Number
     One!".
          The main action in the movie is the rescue attempt by "the
     Snake", an ex-Special Forces hero turned criminal.  "The Snake"
     can win a pardon by rescuing the President in time for the peace
     talks which are only 24 hours away.  If he fails, he dies.

The rest of the review:
     Go see the movie.  See you in the spoiler section!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1981 13:44:57-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Escape from New York

Mini-review: good old get-down-and-roll-in-the-mud action-packed film
noir.

Macro-review:  John Carpenter has pounded together another spookily
suspenseful actioner.
   The plot has New York (specifically Manhattan) as a maximum-
security prison in 1997--you go in, you don't come out.  The
president's plane crashes therein, and the government has only one man
to turn to:  Snake Pliskin, ex-star-pilot (in service over Leningrad)
and now on the verge of being sent to the prison for robbing a Federal
Reserve Bank.  They must get the president out in 23 hours--the future
of civilization hangs in the balance (never mind the spoiler--this all
happens in the first 15 minutes).
   What can you say about John Carpenter?  He makes modern movies--
tough, competent, polished entertainment tools; just try to figure out
what makes them so suspenseful.  But this one has a dark, nasty
undertone Superman would blanch at--the prison is clearly meant to
reflect the condition of the society outside and by extension, now...
the world is a place of desperate nastiness, and only the nasty
survive.
   It's not science fiction as much as it is social fiction.  The
sense of detail adds up to a very foreboding kind of future.  What is
amazing is that it was all done on a budget about a third that of
Raiders.
   The acting is as good as in needs to be, the plot is clever enough
(notwithstanding a few instances of Carpenterian hokiness) and it
LOOKS grim as hell.  Computer graphics fans can see a good deal of
some pretty simple graphics popping up frequently.
   Overall:  ***

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 1981 1602-PDT (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)

Lots of people are working on digital printers, not just Lucasfilm.
It is barely possible that the technology will be sufficient to use
digital techniques for much of the post-production work in a few
years, MAYBE.  But he seems to be implying that they won't be using
film at ALL, and that's just, well, silly.  Not only is the technology
not nearly sufficient for the production level, but it is going to be
a LONG TIME before he can avoid the distribution of films to theaters
-- something he implied he'd be doing shortly!  What are people going
to do, watch on projection TV's?  The technology just is not
sufficiently advanced, and will not be for, I would guess, ten years
at BEST.  On the other hand, maybe he just plans to give up releasing
in theatres and just hit the paytv and videocassette market.  Chuckle.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1981 08:08-EDT
From: Steven C. Bagley <Bagley at MIT-MC>
Subject: High-resolution replacing celluloid

For people interested in video replacing celluloid:

In the July 1981 (current) issue of the IEEE Spectrum, there is an
article entitled "A step toward 'perfect' resolution", about
high-resolution television.  (The cover has an impressive example.)
Those interested in the details should consult the article.  Here are
some quotes:

"Only a couple of months ago the Sony Corp. demonstrated a complete
1125-line high-definition television (HDTV) system, with the same
definition as that of 35-mm film. . . .Joseph A. Flaherty, engineering
vice president for the CBS television network in New York, witnessed
the demonstration and exclaimed enthusiastically that the development
had 'brought high-definition television within the grasp of the
consumer by 1986'.  CBS is planning to use the Sony equipment for
showing 35-mm movies within two years.

"Francis Ford Coppola, the movie producer, after viewing the clear
pictures on the Sony experimental system, said at an April 28, 1981
news conference that he would never again make movies on 35-mm film.
He is planning to lease the equipment from Sony in six months to shoot
movies and then plans to transfer the tape onto film for
distribution."


[Thanks also to David.Smith at CMU-10A for providing this quotation.
-- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 16:50:40-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley
Subject: The Defilming of Lucasfilm.

One of the biggest problems in creating special effects is the
limitation on the number of film layers that can be overlayed in a
single shot.  If you watched SP-FX:  The Empire Strikes Back, on TV
they showed how each shot of a space ship required 4 layers of film.
1) The background.
2) The ship shot against a blue screen.
3) A mask to eliminate the blue screen around the ship.
4) A reverse mask to eliminate the background where the ship is to be.
If a scene gets very complex (i.e. add different ships, live action,
other effects such as laser fire, etc.) then the number of layers of
film gets so big that the image degrades severely.  Add to this the
technical problems of synchronizing thousands of different bits and
pieces of film and you begin to understand Lucas' frustration with the
medium.  The answer to this is to digitize each image, either directly
or from a film image, and then electronically combine them.  The
resulting image can then be used directly or rescanned onto a new
piece of film.  Not only is there no image loss due to excess
celluloid in the light path, but digital image enhancement techniques
(such as grain reduction) can be used to actually produce a superior
finished product.  And this doesn't even begin to mention the computer
graphic techniques which can be used on an image in digital form.
Lucas isn't the first to try to exploit these techniques.  Digital
film printing has been used at III in Culver City, CA (who also make
most of those computer generated network TV logos, the Datsun ads,
special effects for Futureworld).

For those who are worried about image quality in a scanned image, the
scanning is usually done at 4000 or 8000 lines.  I have seen images
produced this way from a second row seat in front of a 60 foot tall
screen, and the images are as good or better than anything that ever
saw the inside of a movie camera.  Before you pass judgement on using
video techniques for filmmaking wait until you see the next
installment of the Star Wars saga.  I think you will be pleasantly
surprised.  And if it ever gets released, DO NOT MISS a movie called
The Works (completely computer generated).

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1981 08:11 PDT
From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "raiders" in alternate universe

for those of you who have been following the news of Stanley Rader's
lawsuit claiming that the movie idea was stolen from him

        Rader and the Lost Tort

and for those of you who are fans of Niven's stories about Gil "Long
Arm" Hamilton

        Readers of the Long Arm

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1981 00:29:12-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley

Routers of the Loose Bark?

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 Jul 1981 11:49-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: RotLA fly

        My theory is that the fly is in fact animated.  The fly is
very obvious because it is very black; too black, in fact, to have
been part of the original picture.  In bright desert sunlight, things
film in a very washed-out fashion, and a real fly would have been
almost invisible.

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/18/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They mention
events of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 16 July 1981 20:00 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: second best Raiders scene

Didn't anyone else like the great hanger gadget scene?  The audience I
saw it with breathed a big sigh of relief when what's his face the
inquisitor type gave that big smile before hanging his coat up on it.

------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1981 06:27-EDT
From: Owen T. Anderson <OTA at MIT-MC>
Subject: RotLA: Arab Sword Master

The scene where Indy dispatched the Arab Sword Master was very well
received when I saw it too (has anyone seen it in a theater where this
scene was not met with enthusiastic applause?).  My interpretation of
this event is that it is indeed a reflection of modern times.  In this
case it is the portrayal of good old practical American ingenuity
winning out over bad old pompous Arab arrogance.  I think the reason
this strikes such a responsive chord in American audiences is direct
fallout of Iranian hostage incident which frustrated America for 444
days.  Everybody wanted to go in there like Indy and just blow them
away.  Didn't anyone else get this impression?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #17
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 JUL 1981 0838-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #17
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sun, 19 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
                    SF Topics - Cancer detection,
           SF Movies - "Raiders" in an alternate universe &
                  Golden Gate Goof & Film vs. video,
        Spoilers - "Raiders of the Lost Ark" & "Citizen Kane"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1981 1919-EDT
From: MLEASE at BBNC (Michael V. Lease)
Subject: Cancer detection (Re: SF-LOVERS V4 #14)

My impression is that most forms of cancer can be cured or at least
kept in check if they are detected early enough.  Thus, this method of
detection, assuming it is bona fide, would definitely have a very
large impact on the number of cancer-related deaths per year.

Cheerio!
Mikey

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1981 12:53:10-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Alternate Rotla

A police chief and his associate, the captain of the drug enforcement
wing of a local police force must chew out a detective who missed
directions and was thus late for an important search and seizure.

Beraters of the Lost Narc

------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1981 16:53-EDT
From: Bruce Israel <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>
Subject: RotLA

Harrison Ford as an ecology nut who thinks the human race is dying out
until he has the facts of life explained to him, in
               "Rooters for the Last Stork"

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1981 14:01:31-PDT
From: Cory.cc-treas at Berkeley
Subject: The Golden Gate Bridge

        Was completed in 1936.  No goof there on Lucas' part.
                                Erik Fair
                                Cory:cc-treas@Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 18 Jul 1981 12:39-PDT
From: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: SUPER VIDEO !!

What's there on the screen ?  Is it television ?  Is it film ?  Is it
Omnimax ?

NO!  Iiiitttt'ssss SUPER VIDEO !!!

Big deal.

(flameon)
Once again we are overemphasizing technology.  The problem Francis
Coppola must face is not "whether film or video" but why he hasn't
made a very good film since The Godfather.  This may be naive, but I
think the challenge in film making is in the story-telling, the
writing, the acting and the cinematography.  It's nice if they save
money on film stock 5 years from now but I don't think it's all that
revolutionary.

I think several technical issues are being confused here also.

First, SONY has demonstrated a 1125-line TV which they claim is the
resolution of 35mm film.  Well, I haven't seen it, but, apriori, I
doubt that 1125 scan lines is equivalent to the 35mm film.  I have
used 1024 displays and seen film made at that resolution and it is
arguably not as good as 16mm, DEFINITELY not as good as 35mm, and not
close to the 70mm that Raiders, Star Wars, Close Encounters, etc. are
filmed in.

It's nice that SONY has a new TV system, but it isn't 35mm.  If I were
not inherently tactful, I'd say they were lying.

Second, resolution is not the only aspect of producing an image.
There is at least color, color range, color density....  There are
probably other issues involved but I am not a cinematographer, just an
amateur, but video is a lesser medium than film in more than just
resolution.  Now, of course, maybe the SONY or follow on systems have
addressed and resolved these issues.  Great!  But I haven't heard any
mention of it yet.

(end of flame)  Thanks!

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/19/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

** No ordinary spoiler warning!  Read this! **

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
details of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  The very last
message compares the ending of "Raiders" with that of "Citizen Kane"
and is thus a double spoiler.  Readers who have not seen "Raiders" may
wish not to read any further.  Those who have not seen "Kane" might
watch for the warning contained in that last message and stop reading
at that point.


------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1981 16:59-EDT
From: Bruce Israel <ISRAEL at MIT-AI>
Subject: RotLA Arab Swordmaster scene

I interpreted that scene as a satire on the standard martial arts
movie.  You know the scene where Bruce Lee is surrounded by fifteen
men, whips out his trusty pair of nunchaku sticks and starts swinging
them.  They see this and get scared and then each runs in at him one
at a time and get clobbered.
- Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 17 July 1981 21:08-EDT
From: Ken Harrenstien <KLH at MIT-AI>
Subject: RotLA & sub trip

        I didn't think anyone actually believed the sub trip was
plausible.
        There is a map scene showing the sub's progress with a red
line; I would estimate the distance covered as about 400 miles.
People with faster eyes and better maps could narrow this down.  I
don't remember the average U-boat surface speed, but a 24-hour period
is more than enough to travel that far.  Exposure would be a problem,
but not a fatal one at those latitudes.
        It's quite true that those diesel-electric subs went much
faster on the surface than while submerged.  Since this was peacetime,
normally there would be no need to submerge during the trip.  On the
other hand, if the Nazis had a secret sub base, the final approach
would certainly be submerged; the periscope-view shot seems to support
this.  Furthermore, it's hard to believe that a waylaid freighter
won't be screaming for help on all available radio channels,
particularly since this IS peacetime, and British forces should have
existed in the Mediterranean.  I suppose a smuggler would have
preferred to avoid hassles, but even so if I were the U-boat commander
I won't have counted on that -- I'd submerge as soon as I was in deep
water.  (That's another puzzling aspect, by the way.  Both ships are
in very shallow water close to shore, much too shallow for safe
submergence.  This didn't make sense to me, but I figured that the sub
may have forced the Bantu Wind to steam towards land and then drop
anchor, so as to get into more sheltered waters for the boarding party
and cargo transfer.)

        Okay, let's grant that the sub never did submerge.  But then
where were the lookouts?  Normally, military ships on the surface
(especially subs, and especially without radar) maintain lookouts.
There would be at least two of them, and there isn't much in the way
of hiding places on that kind of bridge.  My friend actually thought
that Jones was supposed to have sneaked INSIDE the sub, which makes a
lot more sense.  That's absurdly difficult too (subs being very small
and cramped and hypersensitive about open hatches) but at least not
impossible.

        I don't want to even think about how he magically got from the
sub to the hangar hiding place, or how they got off the island at all.
I guess the writers didn't want to think about it either.

P.S. As long as I'm sending a message, I'll include my other comments:

        I don't suppose it matters, but some people might be
interested in knowing that there was never any such plane as the one
depicted at the Nazi base.  I was impressed because I knew they must
have put the whole thing together for this movie, and a very nice
fabrication it was too.  Pity it got trashed.
        If I understood things correctly, the guys bankrolling Jones
were from the CIA.  I don't think the CIA existed at that time.  My
memory says that the CIA evolved from the OSS, which itself wasn't
really around until WW2.  Am I wrong?
        It won't surprise me a bit if Lucas picked the title simply
for the acronym -- Hollywood is in LA, after all.  Isn't it
interesting that the next movie will be called RotJ?  I wonder who or
what J is supposed to be...

--Ken

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1981 (Friday) 1322-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Raiders: details and sub problem (spoiler?)

  First, a friend tells me (and I cannot remember the truth of this,
and have not a bible handy) that the Ark contained not the remnants of
the *original*, but rather the *copy* of the 10 commandments (still in
unbroken form).  Can anyone verify this?

  Concerning the sub problem -- diesel subs typically would cruise
either on the surface or at snorkel/periscope depth to allow air
intake.  So any submerging would be solely below the surface, but not
too deep -- Indiana Jones could have strapped himself to the snorkel.
Also, examination of his facial growth (I believe he was clean-shaven
on the ship, but had several days' growth when he reached the island)
tends to indicate a trip of moderate length.  Much longer and he would
have had hunger/thirst problems; as is, I'm surprised he didn't
succumb to exposure.

    -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1981 2214-PDT
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Ending of RotLA

I read in several film reviews that the ending of RotLA was a homage
(or a ripoff, depending on how you look at it) to the ending of
Citizen Kane...  ***DOUBLE SPOILER WARNING***  I AM ABOUT TO DISCUSS
THE ENDING OF CITIZEN KANE******

At first this puzzled me because that was not my immediate reaction
but on thinking about it, it makes more sense.  You will recall in
"Citizen Kane", that the film is structured as a flashback, where a
news reporter attempts to find the meaning of Charles Foster Kane's
last words on his deathbed:  Rosebud.  The reporter goes through the
whole movie trying to figure it out, revealing his life story in the
process.  The reporter never finds out the answer but at the end of
the film, it is revealed to the audience that "ROSEBUD" is the name
(make?) of his sled when he was a child (indicating that his most
significant thoughts on his deathbed were his recollections of his
childhood)-- however, it is revealed to us by showing some workmen
going through his belongings in Xanadu (his mansion), finding the
sled, asking whether it was worth anything, and then upon deciding
that it wasn't throwing it into the incinerator.  i.e. they had the
key to his life (and the film for that matter) in their hands and they
didn't understand the significance of it.  The parallels to the
endings of RotLA are therefore obvious:  the US government had in
their hands one of the most powerful/mystical objects in existence,
and it was destined to remain in oblivion...  Any comments?  I think
this connection may be stretching the point but I did see several
reviewers (including Sarris of the \Voice/) pick it up...
Also, the cover story of \Film Comment/ is about Lucas--just got it in
the mail today so I haven't read it yet--looks worth checking out...
--Michael (first@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #18
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 JUL 1981 0645-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #18
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 20 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
                 SF TV - Twilight Zone episode query,
                    SF Topics - Does not compute,
            SF Movies - Alternate "Raiders" and "Escape" &
                    Coppola's movies & Super video
                      Spoiler - "Raiders" ending
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 July 1981 17:05-EDT
From: Betsy Lasarow <COOKIE at MIT-AI>

Does anyone remember a Twilight Zone (could be Hitchcock or Outer
Limits or One Step Beyond, it has been so long since i saw it...)
where all of the people upon reaching a certain age must have their
faces changed to one of a limited number in a catalog?  In this
episode there is a girl that has just reached this \age/ and is not at
all receptive to the idea of having herself become a Barbie-Doll
clone.  (I also remember that her best friend (who had undergone the
\change/ already) was named "Val"...

I realize that this sounds a lot like a SF story that I read in later
times about a man who had not been \changed/ and was stared at (all
gnarly and scarred in a society of cosmetically perfect people), but
that is not what I am referring to.  In this episode, the girl's uncle
looked identical to her doctor, and much of the show was devoted to
convincing this young woman as to why she wanted to become like
everyone else...  (Lauren, you got any recollection of this?)

                                        -betsy


In a side note, I believe SWG to be correct about "My Perfect Doll"
re:  "That does not compute..."  As I recall, in this series she would
cock her head (she = Julie Newmar) and say it.       -b

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 19 July 1981  03:49-EDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSOL at RUTGERS>
Subject: Does not compute

Not quite - it was
"I am not programmed to respond in that area."

First spoken by "Norman" (the android at the center, er. Brain) and
then by Kirk (is there anyone out there who DOESN'T know Kirk was
played by William Shatner??) to confuse and disarm the androids.  The
episode was named "I, MUDD".
Your Trivia Expert,
JSol

------------------------------

Date: 19 July 1981 1912-EDT (Sunday)
From: Warren.Wake at CMU-10B
Subject: "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and "Escape from New York" in an
         alternate universe

The Scene...  New York City, 1997
    Shortly after Manhattan is turned into a Maximum security prison,
it is realized that groundskeepers had accidentally been left on the
island.  Now it is discovered that Central Park is missing.  Indiana
Snake is sent in to find:

        THE RAKERS OF THE LOST PARK

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 81 18:00-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-Unix
Subject: Coppola not making a very good film since The Godfather????

Sorry Mike.  Have to correct you on this serious error.  Coppola has
directed four films since The Godfather.  The Godfather Part 2, The
Conversation, Apocalypse Now, and One from the Heart.  The last of
these has not yet been released.  The first two are acknowledged by
the critics to be brilliant.  I am particularly fond of The
Conversation which is, in my opinion, the best film ever made about
the effects of technology on society.  Apocalypse Now was less
successful but still better (in my opinion) than 99% of the films that
were released in that year.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1981 1229-MDT
From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish)
Subject: Re: SUPER VIDEO (V4 #17)

I agree that the real issues in film making should involve having
something to say, and saying it well (with a high coefficient of
visual communication).

Since special effects are replacing content (or maybe more charitably,
opening whole new areas to cinematic depiction,) the technical
limitations of the FX methods start factoring into the choice of
production medium.  Hence computer-controlled animation cameras,
digital, hi-res video, and so on.

Re:  the technical issue of whether a 1125 line TV system can meet or
exceed the resolution of 35mm film:  You mention working with 1024
line displays and seeing film made at that resolution.  There are
several other issues that influence the \perceived/ resolution out of
a CRT in addition to just the number of lines.  You get more
resolution out of a ~500 line TV than you get from most ~500 line
framebuffer displays.  As always, this is both hardware and software.

A TV camera is doing a quite sophisticated filtering of the incoming
image before sampling to produce a signal.  The filtered area actually
extends onto neighboring pixel areas and so the sample includes
information from them.  (Actually, a video camera doesn't \have/ to be
sampled in the horizontal direction at all, just produce a band-
limited analog waveform, but let that go since we want to talk about
digital video anyway...)

There are at long last image synthesis algorithms which duplicate the
video camera filtering process on the image model \before/ computing a
pixel sample.  This is \lots/ better than post-filtering to reduce
"jaggies" in a synthesized image, resulting in (theoretical max)
~3,500 lines of information in a ~500 line image, rather than ~250 for
post-filtering.  The psycho-physics of the monitor and eye puts it all
back together if not distracted by non-information such as "jaggies"
(aliasing).  (Ref: SigGraph '80 proceedings.)

The other problem is greyscale resolution.  Without at least 8
bits/pixel for B/W, (maybe 10) and similarly 24-30 bits for RGB, you
can't use the filtered rendering algorithms.  1k bitmap displays have
terrible jaggies, 512 res filtered displays (and TV) have none.

So we need to know more about the displays and programs you were using
to calibrate the film resolution you saw.  I, for one, am not ready to
dismiss the SONY claim, especially for analog video.  I want very much
to see the actual perceived resolution of the SONY system, preferably
with test images I generate, to compare it to 35mm (or 70mm) for
theater projection.  (Any LucasFilm'ers, NYIT'ers, or III'ers want to
address the issue?)

-Russ

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1981 14:26:53-PDT
From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley
Subject: Response: RotLA and the CIA;   Film vs. Video.

        It is strange that I never thought of it before reading it in
Sunday's SFL, but I also thought the men were from the CIA, which of
course was not founded until the late '40's (~1948).  I don't know
whether a character actually said they were from the CIA, or I just
jumped to that conclusion.

[Note:  The above refers to yesterday's spoiler section.  -- Mike]

        I also have to agree with KLH at MIT-AI on the probability of
video of any sort replacing film.  One of the "advantages" mentioned
for video is that with film you have a generation problem, that is, as
you make more and more layers of masks, and mattes, etc., you get more
and more generations removed from the original negative, and less and
less quality.  However, while it is probably possible to use less
generations with video, (possibly only if you could compute all your
effects at once, and put them all on one piece of tape or whatever),
each generation of tape has more of a quality drop off than the same
number of generations of film.  I have seen quad video tape (the 2"
stuff used for broadcast work) degraded to the quality of 1/2" home
video tape in as few as 4 generations.  Film is much easier to keep
looking good.

                                                George Bray

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1981 1959-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: Film vs. video

Quite so, with copying analog videotape.  However, digital images do
not deteriorate from copying.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1981 1607-MDT
From: Spencer W. Thomas <THOMAS at UTAH-20>
Subject: SUPER VIDEO !!

I've heard Dave Evans (of Evans & Sutherland fame) claim that the
resolution of 35mm film was about 1000 lines, and I didn't believe it
either.  But, let's just think about it for a moment.  A standard 35mm
movie frame is about 25mm by 17mm, so 1000 lines is equivalent to
1000/17mm = 59 lines/mm.  This is conceivably near the limit.  (I once
asked my father, who works for Kodak in their color film division,
what the resolution of their film was, and he said that he had never
thought about it that way, they are usually concerned with more
  subjective measures like 'sharpness' and 'image quality'.)  I know
that our photographer here considers 35mm still cameras (in which the
image size is approx twice that of movie film) to be too small for
good image quality.  He won't use anything smaller than 2 1/4 x 2 1/4,
and prefers 4x5.

=S
(Anybody out there got some measured values?)

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 7/20/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss the
ending of the recent movie "Raiders of the Last Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 at 0102-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: RotLA ending

The parallel between the endings of RotLA and CITIZEN KANE cited by
Michael (first@SUMEX-AIM) makes the best sense yet-- except for the
preceding scene where the govt. agents declare very emphatically to
Jones and his dept. head that the Ark is under study (can't recall the
exact phrasing) by the MOST competent investigators (or something to
that effect).  At that point one is wondering just who the hotshots
were that would be so much better than Indy and the other Prof., and
then the next scene is of the crate getting stashed away.  There must
have been some reason for this sequence of scenes, but it has eluded
me.

------------------------------

Date: 19 July 1981 17:33 edt
From: JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love)
Subject: Raiders vs Kane

I prefer the explanation that the U.S. Government was entirely too
aware of the significance of the Ark and intentionally tried to bury
it in obscurity.  Remember their cryptic insistence that they had
"good people" looking into it; it is reasonable to assume that
archaeologists who had gone to the trouble of finding the Ark wouldn't
be pleased if they were told that the Ark was considered too dangerous
to study.  To me the flaw is that the government displayed
uncharacteristic wisdom.  On the other hand, this was set too early
for the idea of an "Ark gap" to be as obvious as it is today.

------------------------------

Date: 19 July 1981 20:54 edt
From: Frankston at MIT-Multics (Bob Frankston)
Subject: End of RotLA

One of the standard aspects of films of this genre is that they
attempt to mesh with reality.  Thus any reference to that which exists
must be real.  The problem is that if something significant is found
or happens in the film, but our current reality does not include the
results, then something in the film must explain what happened to it.
At the lowest quality is the scientist explaining that humanity is not
ready for the great invention and destroying it.  Using bureaucracy to
squash the discovery is the same as using the gun against the
swordsman -- the "obvious" solution that clashes with the contrived
solution in the traditional films.

------------------------------

Date: 19-Jul-81 1927-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: RotLA ending

Thank you, Bob Frankston!  That's exactly how I saw it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #19
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 JUL 1981 0631-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #19
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 21 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:
                    SF TV - Twilight Zone answer,
                  SF Books - Transfigurations query,
            SF Movies - Superman II flaw & Video vs. film,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 at 0034-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Twilight Zone episode?

Betsy Lasarow's TV episode sounds like the plot of FACIAL JUSTICE, a
1960 novel by mainstream writer L.P. Hartley which has been accepted
into genre SF by fen.  The protagonist, Jael 97, is not an ugly man
but a girl such as Betsy describes, who resists getting a stock face,
but ends up with one anyway (after an accident, I think).  There was
also the beast friend who had undergone the change already.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 1332-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Ugliness themes in Twilight Zone

I remember quite clearly the Twilight Zone episode in which a homely
young girl is required to undergo facial surgery, although it is not
the only episode that dealt with themes of beauty and ugliness.

In the episode Betsy mentioned to (I don't remember the title --
anyone else?), the parents of a young girl who has recently passed
puberty are excited over the girl's face-altering surgery, a societal
standard for those who don't measure up to the norm.  The girl, freely
admitting that she is indeed homely, balks at the surgery, remembering
her grandfather's Zen-like advice about the Yin and Yang of beauty and
ugliness:  you can't have one without the other.  The irony of the
story, if I remember correctly, is that she receives the same pretty
face as her best friend's (or her mother's?).

In another Twilight Zone, a woman in a futuristic hospital spends
nearly the entire episode in facial bandages.  Throughout the episode,
the faces of the doctors and nurses who care for her are masked in
shadows.  Suspense mounts.  Finally, when the bandages come off, we
see a young Elizabeth Montgomery (Bewitched), whose "beautiful" face
strikes horror into the attendant nurses who, like the doctors, have
faces that resemble Miss Piggy's, although far homelier.  The doctors
declare Ms. Montgomery's facial surgery a complete failure.  Finally,
she is deemed a hopeless case and doomed to spend the rest of her life
on some reservation populated by other outcasts of her kind.  She is
introduced to a man from this place -- of course he looks like a Greek
God, as do, presumably, the rest of the outcasts.

Finally, there's the episode about the aged husband and wife who find
that they can buy new, strong and youthful bodies -- for a high price.
Their love for each other is great, and when they find that they
cannot afford to buy two new bodies, they decide that the husband will
be the recipient of the new physique.  He goes through the process,
and voila -- he comes bounding out of the "changing room" dressed in a
skimpy bathing suit to show off his new, great looks.  He joyously
greets his aged wife and does a few pushups to show off.  However, he
is overcome with love for his wife and decides to return the new
merchandise for the old.  At the closing scene, the two old lovers
totter home together, a little sadder and a lot wiser.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 1311-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: TZ episode

The official SF-L Twilight Zone Episode Guide, authored by Saul Jaffe
and yours truly, lists the episode in question.  Here is the excerpt:

NUMBER 12 LOOKS JUST LIKE YOU   ***
Writer: Charles Beaumont
Director: Abner Biberman
Cast: Suzy Parker, Richard Long, Pamela Austin, Collin Wilcox

     The actors play multiple roles in this futuristic drama about the
loss of individuality.  A young woman (Wilcox) rejects treatments that
will make her physically flawless like the rest of the people in the
drab society she lives in.

LW: There is a great flub in this episode.  In one scene, if you know
    where to look, you can see some cigarette smoke wafting in from a
    stage hand standing off camera!  A pretty good episode overall.

---

--Lauren--

[Thanks also to Fred Tou (Tou at PARC-MAXC), Saul Jaffe (JAFFE at
RUTGERS-GREEN, via Jon Solomon <JSOL at RUTGERS>), and Barry "barmar"
Margolin (Margolin.PDO at MIT-MULTICS) for identifying "Number 12
Looks Just Like You" and/or the episode about the elderly couple.
-- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1981 1648-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: SF Query and Superman II Flaw

1.  Has anyone read TRANSFIGURATIONS by Michael Bishop?  What did you
    think?  Feel free to include SPOILERS.  You can send directly to
    me, DAUL@OFFICE.

2.  The villainess in SII or should it be S2, didn't she pin some of
    the metals/pins onto her outfit?  How did she get the pin to
    puncture the material?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 01:06:28-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley
Subject: video vs. film (super video response)

This message is in response to several questions raised in the
discussion about video vs. film.

First, 1000 line video is certainly capable of having as much
resolution as 35mm film.  Currently the major limiting factor is the
resolution of the shadow mask on the display monitor, and the
bandwidth of the transmitted signal, not the number of lines.  For
example, normal broadcast television is done at 525 lines, but the
best home tv's are only capable of 200 or so lines.  Most 1000 line
graphics systems are NOT really displaying 1000 lines of resolution
when the output is done on a display which has only 850 color triad
lines, which, after allowing for the Kell factor, results in a
resolution of around 600 lines.  On a real 1000 line monitor, fed at
the proper bandwidth (like the Sony system) the image is truly
wonderful.  Wait until you see it.

Second, the phosphors used for television reproduction allow a larger
color gamut than any other method of color reproduction, including
film.  A properly aligned video system has very accurate color
rendition.  At least as far as color is concerned, video is superior
to film.

I have also used both video and film, and in the past video HAS been
an inferior medium.  Not any longer.  It has comparable resolution,
better color, is more adaptable to signal processing, and is cheaper.

Lastly, this is an area where the technology IS very important.  If
you had ever tried to make a movie, you would know that the cost of
film is VERY significant.  Actors can be friends, screenplay can be
written by a friend, etc.  But the cost of film and processing is
prohibitive.  Let's say I am a young but poor genius filmmaker, and I
want to make an important film.  I would have to go to Hollywood and
get my film financed, with all the BS that goes with that.  If someone
offered me a medium that was as good as film, but much cheaper, and
would allow as many takes as I needed to get a scene right since I can
reuse the stock, then wouldn't I be crazy if I didn't jump at the
chance?  After all, the medium is the message (I had to say that,
sorry!).

wm at unc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 14:27:34-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley
Subject: more on film vs. video

The resolution of pan X black and white film, the highest resolution,
slowest (asa 25), b&w white film that Kodak makes for movie use, has a
resolution just over 1000 lines per frame.  Other films, of course,
have less than that.

Russ Fish mentions a theoretical max. resolution of ~3500 lines on a
monitor.  Actually the theoretical maximum is a function of the
viewing angle (the size of the screen divided by the viewing
distance).  3500 lines is for a 17 inch monitor at 25 inches.  Typical
preferred movie viewing angles are actually less than that.  This data
comes from an article in the Siggraph '80 proceedings entitled "Human
Vision, Anti-aliasing, and the Cheap 4000 Line Display".  This article
goes into the psychosensory aspects of video resolution.  To be
immodest, I must admit I wrote it.

Anyone who argues in favor of a hard medium (film, paper, etc.)
against a soft medium (digital storage) is arguing on the wrong side
of history, and has their work cut out for them.

wm at unc.

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/21/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
details of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 81 23:53:30-EDT (Wed)
From: Michael Muuss <mike@brl>
Subject: RotLA Phrase

It was "TOP Men!!", not "good people" !!! (?!?!)
                -M

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 81 18:24:34-EDT (Mon)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: RotLa

The "CIA" types who were funding Indy's attempt to recover the Ark
were clearly established in both the movie and the book as being folks
from one branch or another of Military Intelligence.  The book even
gives them military rank, though the film does not, and need not be
that specific.  Suffice it to say that the CIA is not mentioned at all
in conjunction with Raiders.
                        Sue

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 16:45:50-EDT
From: c-alayto at CCA-UNIX (Alexis Layton)
Subject: Raiders Government Agents

I distinctly remember that in the beginning, Marcus (?) told Indiana
that some "Army Intelligence" people were there to see him.

I went again last weekend and although I looked for the R2D2 and C3PO
hieroglyphs, I did not find them.  Where exactly were they?

------------------------------

Date: 20 July 1981 1543-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #17

The organisation that bankrolled Indy was "Army Intelligence," which I
grant is a contradiction.  The US Army and the Navy both had
Intelligence Corps that cooperated.  The OSS was formed during WWII,
and the CIA afterward.

To disagree with Michael First, and to agree with a comment from last
week, consider the following:

        The Egyptian king who hauled off the Ark in the first place,
        hid it in the Well of Souls becuase it was safe there - it
        could not hurt his own people and no one could find it to use
        it against him.

        Could the US government have made a similar intelligent
        decision to put a powerful force it could not understand nor
        probably control in place where it could not be found to do
        any harm?  Granted, such intelligence is seldom seen in
        government action, but the older guy from Army Int seemed to
        have his head on straight....


Then there's the futuristic movie where Harrison Ford is a naturalist
trying to find the last stand of trees in America to study their
nutrient gathering ability:

                Rooters of the Lost Park


                                                mitch

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 1614-EDT
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Raiders ending and Citizen Kane

        I saw Raiders the day it opened with a contingent of movie
fanatics.  The ending immediately reminded me of Citizen Kane, and I
mentioned it to the person sitting next to me, who also felt that
there were many similarities.  I'd be willing to bet that Lucas/
Spielberg intended the similarity.

                                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 1855-PDT
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: RotLA Ending

I believe the preceding scene (the government people talking with
Indiana about the fate of the Ark) is perfectly consistent with the
"Citizen Kane" interpretation of the ending--when they say that they
have the "top people" assigned to take care of the Ark, I was
expecting that the film would end with the government taking control
of the Ark away from Indiana Jones without him ever finding out the
outcome--in fact, I was anticipating some possible tie-in with the
development of the atom bomb.  However, the next scene reveals that
they said "top people" to Jones simply assure him that they would be
taking a serious look at the Ark.  I still believe that RotLA's final
message was one of the ultimate stupidity and short-sightedness of the
bureaucracy, not one of wisdom and insight as to the Ark's true
significance...
Cynically yours,
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 14:00:22-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Raiders

Re: Why the sub would not expect the freighter to call for help.  It
was my understanding the captain was in Nazi pay...

Also, some may note the new soft core porn film out, in which deputies
and private eyes are stripped stark naked.  It's called:

Aiders of the Law, Stark

------------------------------

Date: 20 July 1981 15:17 edt
From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics
Subject: sub travel in RotLA

        A friend saw Raiders on Saturday night, and I had asked him to
watch for a map when Indy travels on the sub (presumably by hanging on
top).  He noticed a map alright, and claims that the red line starts
in mid-Atlantic and bends at the straits of Gibraltar going almost all
the way to the end of the Mediterranean.  Even longer than I had
remembered.
        He further noticed that there is some unexplained frantic
activity just as the sub gets underway, that seems to indicate that
the sub is about to dive.
        (He didn't notice any backpointers though, despite warnings to
look for signs of R2D2 and C3Po and THX1138).
        If it was really from the mid-Atlantic, then Indy should have
had some problem surviving.
        And if, as people seem to imply, the freighter and sub were in
shallow water, then the indications that the sub was about to dive
seem screwy.
        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 81 18:36:55-EDT (Mon)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: RotLA's sub trip

The book agrees with Steve Platt about the fact that the sub never
went below periscope depth and that Indy tied himself to the sub so as
not to be lost at sea.  Also, it appears that the map used to outline
the sub's trip to the audience, was on a different scale than the map
showing the flight route to Nepal.  In fact, I'm told that the sub's
trip was supposed to be approximately a day's journey; maybe two days.
Still, that should not be sufficient to kill anyone.
        As to how Indy got to the submarine hangar:  well, one may
suppose that nothing extraordinary/interesting happened, so the author
did not find it worth sharing with the reader or the audience.
Similar reasoning applies to getting the Ark, Marion (correct spelling
this time), and Indy off the island.  By that point, the audience/
reader has sufficient evidence of Indy's habit that it easy to see how
he might have done it.  Provided nothing went wrong in the process,
there is nothing to show.  Movies and books never deal with the
ordinary -- lack of conflict results in a bored audience.
                Sue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #20
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 JUL 1981 1000-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #20
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Wed, 22 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
                        SF TV - The Prisoner,
  SF Movies - Film vs. video & Being There & Escape from New York &
         Our new Bogie? & Rader's suit & Alternate Raiders',
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 18:28:58 EDT (Monday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: the prisoner

on p. 338 of the Feb. 81 BYTE:

    The Prisoner

    The Prisoner was inspired by the television series of the 1960s.
    Consisting of twenty interlinked games, the program places the
    player on an island housing a psychological prison camp.  The
    player's task is to escape both the island and its attempts to
    extract information from him.  The Prisoner requires an Apple
    computer with 48k bytes and a single disk drive.

------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1981 1044-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30)
Subject: Hi-res video

When printing the video signal onto film, you DON'T use a shadow-mask
tube.  You use a single black&white tube, and record R,G,B
sequentially through filters.  The result is very much better, with
each primary filling the whole pixel.  As for color quality, the
poorness of current broadcast video is due to the bandwidth limiting
applied to the color signals.  The American TV broadcast standard was
developed for black and white, without considering the (then) future
needs of color.  "They" then needed a kludge to make color TV
compatible with the old B&W standard.

------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1981 21:07 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Film vs Video

I would suspect that the limit on film image quality is set not by the
film, but by the lens.  In 35mm still cameras, a good lens of normal
focal length will produce a resolution of 70 to 90 lines on the film
at the center of the image.  This falls off at the corners, with
shorter or longer focal lengths, or at very large or very small
shutter openings.  I suspect that the lens used for commercial film
production are somewhat better.  Still, considering all of the
intermediate steps, I would be very surprised if the final result is
better than about 90 lines/mm.
                        Paul

------------------------------

Date: 07/20/81 19:51:56
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: Outtakes in Credits

The late Peter Sellers was fond of outtakes in closing credits.  A
year or two ago his movie "Being There" (he played a character called
"Chauncey") closed with outtakes where they couldn't keep a straight
face in a semi-serious scene.

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 81 20:32:02-EDT (Mon)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: EFNY

After the second week in Baltimore, this movie is rapidly dying, and
for good reason.  The overall plot --- convict is forced to work for
the authorities to be granted an amnesty he does not want --- is just
barely believable.  However, the society wherein the movie takes place
--- a large maximum security prison wherein the prisoners can set up
their own society --- does not exist.  The audience sees the chief
gang-leader who apparently rules NY through terror but is unbelievable
as such because his position does not seem to be respected by the rest
of the gangs unless the author/script writer finds it necessary for a
certain scene.

The music, over the first few minutes, was the movie's only redeeming
feature, but alas, Mr. Carpenter did not have the creativity to vary
it sufficiently to make it continuously interesting.  Similarly, the
cinematography was nice, but it's not difficult to set a creepy mood
when one has half-darkness to work with.

All in all, the eyestrain that accompanies this movie is only worth
the price you pay if you are a die-hard Ernest Borgnine fan (he does a
wonderful job with a mediocre character), or if one is a great admirer
of such works as "The Sorcerer".
                                Sue

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 81 18:17:47-EDT (Tue)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: RotLA

The August 4, 1981 issue of `US' claimed that Harrison Ford "could
well be the Bogart of the 80's:  He possesses Bogart's shy cynicism
and gritty vulnerability".  There might just be something to that.
                        Sue

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 81 18:41:49-EDT (Mon)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: "raiders" in alternate universe

Apropos "Rader and the Lost Tort", how is that lawsuit doing?  I
really like this pun, though a copyright infringement suit is hardly a
tort.  Does anyone know what the charges and allegations are and what
stage the mess is in?
                Sue

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 00:25:29-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Alternate Universe RotLA

The St. Louis Zoo exchanges three hippopotami with the San Diego Zoo
for an overweight songbird....

Traders of the Gross Lark

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 00:25:50-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Rot-LA hell universe is this?

If Jones finds some Crucifixion painting in that same warehouse:

        Craters of the Cross Art

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 00:27:31-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Alternate "Raiders"

If Indiana Jones visits Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever at the end of
the current trilogy:

        Ravers of the Last Part

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 1829-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Subject: One Day on the Set of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"...

In an alternate universe not too far away....

The story goes that while Harrison Ford was filming "Raiders", his
co-star of the Star Wars pictures Mark Hamill came to visit the set.
In a break between takes, they had a discussion about possible future
revelations in the Star Wars series plots.  Harrison said he had
learned that Darth Vader would be revealed as a time traveller from
centuries ago who was stranded in the present by a malfunction of his
time machine; which also disfigured him.  Turning to young Hamill,
Ford said "Vader's of the past, Mark."

------------------------------

Date: 07/20/81 19:54:25
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: RotLA in alternate Universes

One more...

Due to severe budget problems in 1982 (the total collapse of the
American Dollar) George Lucas is forced to COMBINE both the sequels to
RotLA and TESB (the upcoming Revenge of the Jedi.) in:

        "Vaders of the Lost Ark"

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 17:35:48-PDT
From: CSVAX.peter at Berkeley
Subject: RotLA

    readers of the last argh.

        ... peter

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 1038-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: RotLA pun

Although they were probably quite underpaid, it seems reasonable to
assume that the German soldiers in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" were
compensated in Nazi deutsche marks.  So if they were to purchase
something, wouldn't they be:

   "Traders of the Crossed Mark"?

Maybe not.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 14:59:56 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Ralph Muha <muha at BBN-NU>
Subject: AltRotLA

Harrison Ford, as the intrepid high-energy physicist/adventurer,
Oppenheimer Jones, tracks down that most elusive of particles in

        Accelerators of the Lost Quark

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/22/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss the
burning issues concerning the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".
Readers who have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 09:44:34-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
Subject: The Submarine in RotLA

Steve Platt <PLATTS@WHARTON-10> makes the suggestion that perhaps
Indiana Jones could have held on to the snorkel of the German
submarine.  Sorry, but the first German submarine with a snorkel did
not surface (sorry) until 1940.
                                May your periscopes not fog up,
                                John

------------------------------

Date: 21 July 1981 10:56-EDT
From: Andrew Tannenbaum <TRB at MIT-MC>
Subject: RotLA: Rats in the Musty Hold

I don't know why the Ark would have wanted to kill the rats.  It
certainly could have been selective, as was shown in the scene where
it killed all the Nazis but not the good guys.  This reminds me of the
biblical Flood where the mammals were killed (except for Noah & Co.)
but the fish were spared.  Jewish teaching says that the mammals were
guilty but the fish were not.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 10:37:45-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RotLA (spoiler)

   Re: getting off the island after the Ark is opened:
 The book version (which has only a brief description of the "wrath of
God") suggests that \\everybody// on the island, with the exception of
Indy and Marion, is wiped out.  This is distinctly non-Biblical;
various chapters indicate that the Angel of Death has rather limited
intelligence and requires an unambiguous sign as to who's on the right
side.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 0756-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: The God Incident

OK, lemme tell you what my very first impression was.  No good reason
everybody shouldn't attend the ceremony.  Only Indy knows to keep the
eyes closed.  Marion follows Indy's instructions.  Everybody else
casts eyes on God and gets zapped.  Quite biblical.  Now alone, the
two have no problem rescuing both themselves and the Ark.  Nothing has
happened since to change my impression.  Whether or not you believe in
God, you gotta believe that's what the script intended.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 11:06:02-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: The God Incident

   Well, there is one good reason not everybody attends the ceremony:
the crowd they had didn't look nearly big enough for the entire crew
for a U-boat base.  Other than that, it seems reasonable (and even
Biblical; I seem to recall that mentions are made of the Ark being
opened before all the people---else why (except for convenience in the
script) should Marion be dragged along with the rest of them?).

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 00:30:29-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: video vs. film; History of the Ark, Part I

I think that mike@RAND-UNIX is a bit off-base on the importance of
video technology for film-making.  Clearly, the plot, cinematography,
etc., is far more important; nevertheless, technology and economics
set certain limits on what can be done.  Imagine "Star Wars" made 50
years ago -- no color, no computer graphics, etc.  Not nearly the same
impact.

That comment about the contents of the ark is correct:  after the
Golden Calf episode, Moses did indeed smash the tablets in disgust,
but he obtained replacements.

Incidentally, one of the first places in the Bible where the Ark's
power is mentioned (Numbers X, 35-36) seemed very out of place, even
to the ancient rabbis.  Some held it to be from another location in
the Bible; others -- believing in Biblical inerrancy -- claimed that
the Book of Numbers was actually 3 books -- the section before, these
verses, and the remainder.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 1981 11:23 PDT
From: Swenson at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Tablets of Law

A couple of days ago a question appeared regarding the Tablets of the
Law in the Ark.  As I remember it, not having a copy of the Old
Testament at work, Moses went up into the mountain to talk with God.
He was up there about 30 days, and the people thought he had died.
So, they took the gold that the Egyptians had given them when they
left Egypt, melted it down, and made a golden calf, which they
worshiped.  When Moses did come down from the mountain, he saw what
had happened and threw down the tablets, breaking them.  When he had
attended to the problems in camp, including making the people grind
the golden calf into powder and making those who had worshiped it eat
the gold powder, he went back up the mountain and got another set of
tablets from God.  Thus, the tablets in the Ark were not the
originals, nor were they copies in the usual sense.  They were second
originals.
   I have not seen the movie, but some other information may be
interesting.  The Ark contained the Tablets, Aaron's rod which budded
(others had disputed Aaron's right to be spoksman for Moses, so their
walking sticks were planted in the ground, and Aaron's budded), and a
jar containing mana.  (Mana had to be collected each day and eaten the
same day or it would spoil, except that mana collected Friday would
last through Saterday so the people would not have to gather mana on
the Sabbath.  Presumably the mana in the Ark never spoiled.)
   The Ark was covered with gold, it was carried with Israel in its
wanderings, and when Solomon built the temple, it was placed in the
Most Holy Place.  Beside it were two golden statues with outspread
wings.  The space between the top of the Ark and the wings was the
Mercy Seat, where God's particular presence was seen.  The yearly
blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin was poured over the top of
the Ark under the wings.
   The Ark was captured by Israel's enemies a couple of times.  While
the captors had the Ark all kinds of bad things happened to them, so
they were glad to return the Ark to Israel.  The Bible makes no
further reference to the Ark after Jerusalem was captured and
Solomon's temple destroyed.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #21
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 JUL 1981 2218-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #21
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Thu, 23 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
                 Administrivia - Raiders pan for FTP,
                    SF Topics - The Prisoner game,
                 SF Movies - Video & Raiders not SF &
           Alternate universe "Raiders" & Raiders airplane,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18-Jul-81 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <MDP@MIT-AI>
Subject: Raiders review available for FTP

A while ago SF-Lovers discussed some of the bad reviews the critics
gave "Raiders of the Lost Ark", in particular the one by Pauline Kael
in The New Yorker magazine.  Mike Greenwald was way ahead of us--he
had already typed it in when it was first mentioned on SFL.  Everyone
interested in reading the Kael review should obtain the file from the
site which is most convenient for them.  If you cannot do so, please
send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and we will be happy to make sure that
you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will also be
available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks to Alyson
L. Abramowitz, Roger Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob
Weissman, Don Woods, and Paul Young for providing space for the
materials on their systems, and special thanks to Mike Greenwald for
typing it in!


   Site          Filename

MIT-AI          AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS KAEL
CMUA            TEMP:RAIDER.RVW[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC       [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Kael
SU-AI           KAEL.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics     >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>Kael-RotLA.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11  KIRK::db1:[abramowit.sf]kael.txt
DEC TOPS-20     KL2137::FTN20:<SF>KAEL.TXT

[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1981 18:26 edt
From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics
Subject: RotLA review

[Note:  At Mike Greenwald's request I quote Mike Leavitt's message
appearing in SFL V4 #3.

        Date: 4 Jul 1981 0832-PDT
        From: LEAVITT at USC-ISI
        Subject: RotLA review

        In a very recent issue of "The New Yorker" Pauline Kael
        has an extremely bitchy review of Raiders.  I am not
        typing it in because I don't want to have to read it
        again.  But if anybody wants to read a review that
        Makes You Think, try that.  Try it after you see it,
        though--it has a few spoilers.

                Mike

-- The Moderator]

It doesn't sound so "bitchy", just critical.
        - Mike Greenwald

------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1981 17:43-EDT
From: Steve Strassmann <straz at MIT-AI>
Subject: The Prisoner- The shape of games to come?

I've played "The Prisoner" [written for the Apple II by Edu-ware] and
believe me, it's an awesome program.  Anyone familiar with the TV show
will be surprised at the way the author of The Prisoner manages to
combine Adventure/Zork type rambling with real-time animation of
various psychological attacks.  At the start of the game, the player
is given a three-digit 'resignation code' and is told NEVER to release
it.

Throughout the game, one travels around "The City" and is tempted to
conform, to join the underground movement, to inflict pain on fellow
prisoners, to sabotage a vital part of the city, or when you least
expect it, to give the resignation code.  Escape IS possible (it
involves a clever use of the ESCAPE key in a way peculiar to Apples),
but don't expect to figure it out within a few mere hours.

I've noticed a turn in the nature of games for personal computers from
simple arcade games to very sophisticated mind-benders like The
Prisoner.  Nothing gives you a better sense of dread than running a
nuclear reactor simulation for an hour and a half only to see a
message flash on the screen that you've contaminated the entire
Eastern seaboard.  These games aren't just number-punching and
mushroom-cloud-drawing, but rather very realistic simulations taking
full advantage of sophisticated color graphics and slick user
interfacing.

I wonder if some program of the future would be sophisticated enough
to generate a story-outline as a teaching aid for budding science-
fiction authors.  One would simulate an adventure, and then try his or
her hand at making an interesting novella out of it.

Steve Strassmann
STRAZ at MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1981 01:34:43-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley

A lens which can resolve 90 lines/mm on film 35mm wide clearly has
more resolution than 1000 lines.  If lenses were the limiting factor,
then nobody would bother to use any film other than tri-x (or high
speed ektachrome, for those into color) since nothing would be gained
by using a finer grained film.

An often overlooked point:  1000 line video has only 500 lines of
resolution.  This is because resolution is measured with OPTICAL lines
(i.e. black lines separated by white lines) and only the black lines
are counted.  It takes two video lines (one white and one black) for
each optical line.

Lastly, while the original broadcast video standard was certainly only
meant for black and white, "they" certainly knew that color would come
around eventually.  And to call the NTSC color broadcast standard a
"kludge", is really hitting below the belt.  Considering how much
color information they got into so little bandwidth, how well they
took human factors into account, given the constraints they were
working under, I personally think the NTSC standard is one of the
great engineering solutions of our time.

wm at unc

p.s. Why does everyone assume that movies will have to be distributed
on film?  GE demonstrated a 1000 line video projector at the National
Computer Graphics Conference last month.  How about distributing
movies directly to theaters via satellite transmission?  And terminals
in various citiess where independent "film"makers could plug works
into the system.  And movie critics could tap directly in, etc. etc.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 1505-PDT
From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis)
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark

        KDO & I went out and saw this film last week, and we both
thought that it was quite entertaining and funny.

        What I want to know is why anyone considers it material for
SFL?  The movie has NOTHING to do with science fiction what so ever.
If we're going to turn this into a film discussion list, why don't we
start with a film which is more than complete escapism, like Mary
Poppins?

-Bil

[I don't entirely agree, but OK, I'll give 10 brownie points for SF
book reviews.  You hear that, Bil?  You be the first.  -- Mike]
------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 14:42 EDT
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest

How about the movie about the time when liberalization of all drug
laws relegates all T-Agents to job re-training programs:

        Graders of the Last Narc

Dave Birnbaum (Birnbaum.henr @ PARC-MAXC)

------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1981 17:12-EDT
From: Steve Strassmann <straz at MIT-AI>
Subject: Alternate Universes

Harrison Ford as an Indian investigator searching out black-market
fast-food joints in Calcutta:

"Waiters of the Roast Ox"

Steve Strassmann
STRAZ at MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 13:39:49-PDT
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Subject: Uners in Raidernate Altiverses

Then there was the group of adventurers who, on finding a leaky can of
insecticide left behind by another party, repaired it with an electric
welder and used it to dispose of a plague of locusts:
Arcers of the Lost Raid.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 2321-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: STILL another RotLA pun

Indiana Jones lets his dog loose.

His dog gets run over by a car.

"Rover and the Last Bark"

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1981 07:27-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: RotLA meets son of Einstein

A frozen subatomic particle is pursued by a group of men who can't
stand it in:

"Haters of the Frost Quark"

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 17:27:10-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!jl at Berkeley
Subject: Raiders

I don't know a 1930's airplane like the German flying wing in Raiders,
but it looks a lot like a German pre-war sailplane, the Horten III.
Sailplanes are gliders capable of extended flight (hours) using rising
columns of air boiled off the ground that make clouds when they get
high enough.  The Horten III was a classic flying wing.  The wings
were thick and stubby, and swept back slightly, with the cockpit way
up front.  Sound familiar?  Unlike the Raiders plane, there were no
vertical fins.  The Horten III used airbrakes near the wingtips for
directional control.  Two Horten III's flew in the 1938 Rohn contest
and climbed to 25,000 feet in cloud.  The Horten brothers made a
series of these flying wings, culminating in the Horten VI, with about
a 100 foot wingspan and a 7 foot fuselage, in 1944.  (Soaring, Vol.
45, No. 6 (June 1981), 40-42)

                            -jl at unc

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/23/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
details of the recent movie "Raiders of the Last Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 10:14:22-EDT
From: c-alayto at CCA-UNIX (Alexis Layton)
Subject: Raider's Sub Trip

The impression I got about the sub trip was that it started somewhere
south of Italy and Greece -- between the two, perhaps, and went
eastward, north of Crete until it came to an island to the north of
Crete on its eastern side.  It certainly did not come from the
Atlantic -- I doubt that the Germans would backtrace that much.  Does
anybody know how long that trip would take?  I doubt if it would take
more than a day and a half.

Secondly, When I saw Raider's again recently, I looked at the
much-discussed rat scene.  Although there are scenes of the rats in
convulsions/seizures, there are no shots of the rats dying or dead.
What does the book say?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 20:15 PDT
From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #15

RotLA RESPONSES

Re: "David Dyer-Bennet's difficulty with the length of the sub's trip"

        I am told by an old navy man that most of the early sub's
traveled above water for speed.  So our hero, Indy Jones, could have
just hid away on top-side for the whole ride.
        I wondered about his underwater abilities until I heard that
one!!
                                \TMP. . .

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #22
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 JUL 1981 0505-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #22
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Fri, 24 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:
            SF Topics - Self-reproducing factories query,
                        SF TV - Twilight Zone,
  SF Movies - Video & Super-pins & Alternate Raiders & Raiders bug,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 July 1981 00:28 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Self Reproducing Factories

As you may recall, some of us on SFL are trying to write some fiction
in a distributed fashion.  Many of us are interested in including Self
Reproducing Factories in the story.  For those unfamiliar with this
concept,the idea is to build factories (in space) that can reproduce
themselves with some fraction of the resources they otherwise exploit.
Soon you have millions of these things.

Do any of you have information on SRFs, or pointers to same?  I think
there has been a NASA conference on the subject, and it is said that
an article appeared in Scientific American.

Second, what stories have SRFs in them?  One is the novel "The
Visitors", by Clifford Simak.  This novel blurs the distinction
between organisms and machines, so its hard to tell.

Please send answers to FICOM at MIT-ML.  If possible, include a
Subject: line with "SRF" in it.

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 23 July 1981  13:46-EDT
Sender: JSol at Rutgers
From: Saul Jaffe <JAFFE at GREEN>

        The episode that Jim Wagner refers to in which a woman needs
plastic surgery to fit into her society which by our standards would
be ugly is called The Eye of the Beholder and did not star Elizabeth
Montgomery as the 'ugly' woman.  Actually, two women played the part:
Maxine Stuart who played the part while bandaged and Donna Douglas
played the woman when the bandages came off.  Donna Douglas as you
know later played Ellie Mae on The Beverly Hillbillies.  Elizabeth
Montgomery did appear in a TWZ episode called TWO which also starred
Charles Bronson.
        The other episode about an old couple who try to get younger
bodies is called The Trade-Ins and starred Joseph Schildkraut and Alma
Platt as the elderly couple.
        You can check the TWZ guide that Lauren and I wrote for more
details.

                                                            Saul Jaffe

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 1552-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: David Dyer-Bennet at KL2137
Subject: SFL responses

(Vol 4 Issue 13 15-Jul-81)

Button seen at a science fiction convention:  "Hokey religions and
ancient weapons are no match for a good bullwhip."

(Vol 4 Issue 16 18-Jul-81)

If digital film production is done at 8000, or 4000, or even 1250,
lines, I should be quite happy with the results.  On the other hand, I
still can't view any of this \at home/ until they get around to
releasing the high-resolution technology in a standard form with
supporting program material (and they sure ain't gonna find space in
the currently-popular part of the electromagnetic spectrum to
broadcast very much of that sort of thing; even 1250 lines takes about
23 times the bandwidth of current television).

(Vol 4 Issue 17 19-Jul-81)

(Mike) In 35mm still photography, which has twice the frame area as
standard 35mm film, a resolution of 100 lines per millimeter is good.
That works out to something like 3500 lines vertically on a
horizontal-format picture.  Still, an 1125 line TV is LOTS better than
the current standard.

(general) (Note:  non-serious response to reasonable and serious
remark) After what Charles Schultz did, I'm not sure it's necessary to
put out spoiler warnings about the ending of Citizen Kane.

(Vol 4 Issue 18)

(McClure) I hadn't realized that The Conversation followed The
Godfather (for someone who was almost a film major in college, I
paid/pay remarkably little attention to commercial films; I was mostly
into the tech side of making films).  The Conversation is one of my
favorites; certainly better than The Godfather and sequel.

(Russ) Why does 260 stick in my mind as the resolution of broadcast
TV?  Is it because the standard specifies 520, but people actually
send duplicates or alternate lines or something?  Are the sets 520 but
the transmitted signal 260?  Or am I simply crazy (polite version:
confused)?

[See wm at unc, V4 #21.  520 lines = 260 lines resolution.  -- Mike]

(George Bray) Copying video tape produces serious quality drop-off
with current analog systems; those discussing production and/or
post-production with video are talking about \digital/ systems, which
suffer much less deterioration (none, generally) on copying.

(Spencer Thomas) The photo magazines (Popular Photography, Modern
Photography) regularly run test reports on cameras and lenses.  One
thing they do is measure the resolution of a lens by photographing
charts using normal films, and determining how much of the chart they
can distinguish.  Thus, the resolution of the film must be at least
that measured for the lens.  Figures of 50 to 75 line \pairs/ per
millimeter stick in my mind as typical of a first-rate lens.

(J. Spencer Love) An "Ark gap" could not develop as long as only one
ark existed.  Unlike technological weapons, we wouldn't have to worry
about the other side developing its own ark.

------------------------------

Date: 07/23/81 21:23:39
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: Super-Pins?

Ursa gets the NASA Patch off of one of the lunar astronauts, and a
badge from an earth sheriff's deputy.  But it appeared that she had
*3* things on her suit, as if one was of Kryptonian origin?  Perhaps
she:

        1) used THAT to make the holes
        2) had holes already their from when she was on krypton and
                had a handful of decorative pins/patches pinned/sewn
                all over her?

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1981 09:34:35-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobs)
Subject: Nit picking, RotLA in other universes

Jim Wagner <Jwagner at OFFICE>, in the latest installment of RotLA
puns, refers to "Nazi deutsche marks".  The German currency of the
time was the Reichmark.

There has just been a law passed forbidding the carving in initials,
hearts, etc. on trees, but Indiana and Marion carve their names just
before the law goes into effect in:

    "Writers on the Last Bark"

Dogs have suddenly become silent, making all dog-lovers squirm in
anxious anticipation for the next woofs in:

    "Writhers of the Lost Bark"

Physicists are getting very upset that some baryons are turning into
mesons in:

    "Ragers of the Lost Quark"
                                John

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1981 5:42-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: ZAPHOD::PORTER
Subject: Reagans of the Last Urk

this might amuse you: in "the muller-fokker effect" written in 1970 by
john sladek, the climax to the story comes during a riot in washington
dc, during which the following radio announcement appears:

"...tional emergency. president reagan has already been evacuated from
the city..."

dave

------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1981 20:23-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject:  RotLA - Flies and bad guys

In the same scene there is a fly that crawls up Indy's arm.  Perhaps
there were just a lot of flies around?

-- Charles

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/24/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They refer to
details of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1981 11:40-EDT
From: Andrew Tannenbaum <TRB at MIT-MC>
Subject: Burning of the Wehrmacht Insignia

If I correctly recall, this was the first time the ark "did anything"
in the movie, right?  I think my impression was that it was saying
"I'm not inert, and boy am I pissed."

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 1981 1535-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: David Dyer-Bennet at KL2137
Subject: SFL (spoiler)

(Vol 4 Issue 11 13-Jul-81)

(B. Templeton) ** SPOILER FOR ROTLA** The Minneapolis audience I saw
Raiders of The Lost Ark (RoTLA) with also reacted to the scene with
the Arabic sword-master in the way you described.  I interpreted the
reaction as relieved pleasure that Han... er, I mean Indiana... wasn't
going to be stuck fighting a sword with a whip -- or perhaps I mean
simply "stuck with a sword."

------------------------------

Date: 23 July 1981 10:45-EDT
From: Andrew Tannenbaum <TRB at MIT-MC>

Let me correct some inaccuracies re Moses and the Ark.

The Egyptians did not give the Jews the gold from which they made the
calf, it was taken by the Jews During one of the ten "plagues"
inflicted upon the Pharaoh's subjects when he would not "let my people
go."  The Jews were told to count fifty days after Moses went up the
mountain, and some of them miscounted and strayed.  I don't remember
Moses forcing anyone to eat gold dust.

Yes, Moses did come down and break the tablets in disgust.  However,
the letters on the tablets, which were created In the Beginning, flew
up to heaven off the tablets and were put on the second set.

Also, some of you heathens might want to know why Aaron had to be
Moses' spokesman.  Couldn't Moses speak for himself?  No, an Angel
forced him to play stupid and eat a flaming coal as an infant, this
persuaded the Egyptians not to kill him (as was the fad with other
Jewish male infants).  This convinced the Egyptians that he probably
wasn't too sharp, and it would be alright to let him live, but it did
mess up his tongue and his speech.

Also, only one person (the High Priest) was allowed into the Most Holy
Place, and he was only allowed to do so once a year (on Yom Kippur,
the Day of Atonement).  So any case of God's presence or anything else
being seen in the Most Holy Place would only be seen by one person
once a year.  The whole Temple and its trappings are filled with
interesting details.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #23
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 JUL 1981 1049-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #23
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 25 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:
            SF Movies - "Raiders" in alternate universes,
                 Spoilers - "Raiders of the Lost Ark"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1981 2304-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: RotLA

From Nancy Dummett at OFFICE-2*

Satyrs Of The Lost Art ... a story of humans trying to rediscover
debauchery.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1981 2351-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: NYSE flick

Traders of the Low Stock

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 1009-EDT
From: Larry Rosenstein <LSR at MIT-XX>
Subject: Raiders in Alternate Universes

How about the movie in which Indiana Jones is appointed to the Supreme
Court, and leads its members on an unprecedented job action:
                Raters of the Laws Walk

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 at 1450-PDT
From: Andrew Knutsen <knutsen@SRI-UNIX>
Subject: RotLA puns

        What is the Oakland Colosseum called in the alternate universe
where its football team moves to LA?

        Arc of the Lost Raiders.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 14:41:22-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: More alternatives
If Indy disliked Marion's dog, which then ran away:

        Haters of the Lost Dog

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 12:44 PDT
From: Swinehart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Let's see if we can put an end to this

In the heart of the Bermuda Triangle lies a small quarter-circular
island.  Until the mid-50's this was a popular stopover for pleasure
craft which happened into the area, but since then no one has been
able to locate it.

On the island, however, life and industry flourish.  One of the more
successful businesses is a truck rental firm operated by an Australian
immigrant.  People refer to it as

                       Ryder's of the Lost Arc

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 0042-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: The puns

After reading all these messages about how Harrison Ford and Raquel
Welch star in a sequel to 1 million BC called Riders of the Last Auk,
or about how the last hope mentioned in TESB is the snow creature that
attacked Luke, and the movie will be named Revenge of the Yeti, I feel
that i must send the following message:

TO:     Writers of the List
CC:
SUBJ:   ARGH!


-Jim

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24 Jul 1981 10:59-PDT
From: gaines at RAND-UNIX
Subject: RotLA puns

Pretty soon we'll see the last of these (I hope) and we will all be
Groaners of the Last AAAARGHHHH

[OK, you're right.  Not everyone enjoys a good pun, and a lot of these
puns are repeats.  Take yours, for example:  it's not so different
from "readers of the last argh", which appeared a few days ago.  So,
as long as they keep coming, I'll continue to run them together where
readers with their own copies of the digest can delete them en masse.
By the way, isn't anything else happening in SF these days?  -- Mike]

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/25/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who have not seen this
movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date:      24 Jul 81 18:36:27-EDT (Fri)
From:      Sue at BRL
Subject:   Rats in RotLA

Unfortunately, the book version of Raiders of the Lost Ark is not very
helpful in determining what happened to the rats in the Bantu Wind's
hold.  It merely mentions that due to their hypersensitive hearing,
they were able to hear the humming sound the Ark made while destroying
the Nazi insignia.  Futhermore, the author says that upon hearing this
humming, the rats wear frightened:  "[...] it obviously scared them."

That is all that is ever said about the animals.  Sorry not to be of
more help.
                        Sue

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 17:13:51-PDT
From: ihnss!mhtsa!research!alice!wolit at Berkeley
Subject: Indiana Jones' Sub Ride

Look, haven't any of you heard of artistic license?  Yes, lookouts are
always posted on surfaced subs.  Yes, the sub's crew was clearly shown
preparing to dive.  Yes, there's no way Jones could have "held onto
the periscope" for the whole trip -- at least not without being
spotted.  Yes there is NO place to hide on a submarine of that
vintage.  SO WHAT?  We can accept heavenly wraiths being conjured up
to do in the Nazis who mocked the ark.  We can accept the sounds of
laser fire (through a vacuum, no less) in Star Wars.  We can accept
the ark burning off the Nazi insignia on the crate.  What's a little
breath-holding compared to that?  Fiction calls for a "willing
suspension of disbelief", and fantasy calls for it in spades.  Relax
and enjoy it.

------------------------------

Date: 24 July 1981 11:11 edt
From: JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love)
Subject: David Dyer-Bennet at KL2137's reply

I sure hate it when people take my jokes seriously, but remember, you
started it:  sure there could be an "Ark gap".  The other side could
try and steal the Ark, or destroy it, or render it useless in some
clever way.  Or they could try to get some powerful artifact from
another religion.  You know, "Set a God to catch a God..."  After all,
when your cross doesn't work, what do you say to a Jewish vampire?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 1652-EDT
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: More on History of the Ark

        I have been told that when the Jewish High Priest went into
the temple once a year to check the ark, even he could not look at the
contents.  The temple was filled with smoke on these occasions so that
when he checked the ark, there was no possibility of accidentally
glancing at the contents.
                                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1981 2049-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #22

What??  Moses was forced to eat a flaming coal???  According to my
Hebrew history books the old story about the basket of reeds and the
pharoah's daughter is "true."
  Moses was his own spokesman (remember the old LET MY PEOPLE GO!)
until after the ten commandmants.  Then he "BEAMED" from having spent
so much time in the presence of G-d.  The sight of Moses was painful
to the people, who had to avert their eyes.  Aaron became Moses'
spokesman at this point.
  (Interesting side note -- In Hebrew the word for Beams is the same
as the word for Horns.  This is the origin of people feeling Jews'
heads for horns.)
  All this except for that last parenthetical remark is right out of
my Passover Haggadah.  I don't know where people are getting their
information, but it is "untrue" at least as far as the "authorized"
version that is taught in Hebrew schools and portrayed in Haggadahs.
  Hoping this straightens things out,
  Jim

p.s. Moses spent Forty days on the mountain the first time, and eighty
the second (forty to beg G-ds forgiveness).
p.p.s. I never heard anything about Moses making anyone eat gold dust
either.

------------------------------

Date: 07/25/81 00:05:55
From: BEN@MIT-ML
Subject: Old Testament errors

I think you must have learned the story of the Ten Commandments from
children's books or something.  At any rate, you shouldn't be passing
such things on as "gospel", so to speak.

"He [Moses] seized the calf they had made and burned it, grinding it
into powder which he scattered on the water; and he made the sons of
Israel drink it."  Exodus 32:20.
There is nothing in Exodus about the letters from the broken tablets
flying up to heaven, although the first tablets were written by God
Himself (Exodus 32:16), while the second set were copied down by Moses
(Exodus 34:28).  Your version sounds suspiciously like a children's
story.

Aaron acted as Moses' mouthpiece because Moses was slow of speech and
inarticulate.  Aaron was a much better speaker.  (Exodus 4:10-17) The
story of the burning coal in the mouth is more nonsense, particularly
since Moses as a child was brought up by the Pharaoh's daughter, who
would have been in a position to protect him from abuse.  Furthermore,
Exodus is full of quotes of Moses speaking, including speaking to
Aaron, so he wasn't speechless.

SF-LOVERS might be interested in reading the elaborate description of
a visiting spaceship in Ezekiel 1, and most of Revelations is pretty
interesting.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #24
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 JUL 1981 0906-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #24
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 27 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No missing digest,
           Humor - Jewish vampires & Raiders alternatives,
                      SF Books - New Voices IV,
      SF Movies - Video resolution, SF Topics - Moses' coal sore
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: July 27, 1981 0:00
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: No missing digest

    Never fear!  You did not miss the Sunday digest.  This Monday
digest numbers V4 #24, right after Saturday's.  You see collected
before you two days' contributions.

Regards,
    Mike

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 at 0042-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: What do you say to a Jewish vampire (JSLove asks)

"Watch it!  I'm wearing Milk Bath skin lotion!"

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 25 Jul 1981 17:59-PDT
From: gail at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Sorry folks

A US Drug Enforcement agent working under cover is captured by gourmet
cannibals.  Says one cannibal to the other, "How about some

        taters with the sauced narc?"

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 25 Jul 1981 19:27-PDT
From: gail at RAND-UNIX
Subject: I KNOW it's stretching... but it's SO topical

Scene: a few years from now.  Prince Charles is now king.

Lady Di's family tells the behind the scenes story in:

        "Reigners" -- or "the In-Laws Talk"
------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 25 Jul 1981 19:34-PDT
From: gail at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Disclaimers of the Last Remark

I'm sorry -- it wasn't me.  The devil made me do it (along with some
visiting friends).

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1981 1417-PDT
From: CSD.SPREITZER
Subject: More Alternate RotLA

   You've all heard of the 'tates'?  It's an ancient version of the
compass, used before lodestones were discovered.  It used a wooden
pointer, and, as you might expect, didn't work very well.  Hence the
phrase:  "He who has a tates is lost".

   The third Jordan Foundation ship uses an interstellar version of
the tates.  Harrison Ford, as the swishbuckling (I said it was
ALTERNATE) space pirate Indy Anna Jones, leads his band of merry men
as they plunder this ship in:

        "Raiders of the Lost Ark".


   Or, perhaps you'd prefer a story about a schizophrenic with two
personalities, one of which lives in an obscure science-fiction
fantasy-world, in:

        "Ray Durzuh, F'Thellaw Stark".


Is anybody else getting tired of this??
        --Mike

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1981 14:45:03-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Raiders puns

I agree that these "Raiders" jokes are going too far.  I will thus
refrain from from my story of art critics debating a new, shiny
semi-circular modern art statue erected in their town.  This statue
was shiny because it had been glossed.

------------------------------

Date: 26 July 1981 10:25-EDT
From: Landon M. Dyer <ZEMON at MIT-AI>
Subject:    S T O P ! ! ! -- RotLA alternatives

        NEW VOICES IV
        Just out in Berkley paperback.  Stories by Joan D. Vinge
(PSIREN), Tom Reamy (M IS FOR THE MILLION THINGS), M. A. Foster
(ENTERTAINMENT), one that I've never seen before by John Varley (BLUE
CHAMPAGNE), and others . . . . highly recommended.

--------

        A speaker in front of an sf convention once said (loose
paraphrasing) :

        "If you have something funny to say, DON'T say it!
         If you think you have something /really/ funny to say,
         say it at your own peril . . ."

        This saved the day at the con, and we were spared from most of
the self-appointed wits standing up and saying whatever struck
themselves as funny.

        RotLA puns past the point of being funny the first two or
three days, began to be painful after the first week.  Please, let's
not beat on a dead thoat.  Let RotLA puns die a well-deserved death.
[I trust that this is the /last/ message about stopping RotLA-puns.  A
meta-discussion on halting a discussion, or a meta-meta-discussion
about halting a meta-discussion (or . . .) is not really called for
here....]

        What /is/ happening in sf, anyway?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1981 1329-MDT
From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish)
Subject: Video Resolution

You all are correct on the point that you have to count line-pairs to
get the normal measure of resolution.  (cf. signal processing, where
you have to get both the high and the low part of a cycle through a
filter for the frequency to be there...)  In computer graphix, we are
in the habit of referring to the number of lines or pixels across the
pixel grid as the "resolution", without regard to grey-scale depth or
anything else.  It seems sensible most of the time when concentrating
on pixel computation, but when mixed in with film and video in a
discussion, it's a great source of confusion.  Especially since the
displays tend to differ by a factor of 2 in "resolution"...

-Russ

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1981 18:52:58-PDT
From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley
Subject: Film vs. Video.

        1).  I feel rather stupid that I didn't even think of digital
video when I sent my message in.  Forgive me.  All those who corrected
me were totally right: digital has none of the generation problems I
was talking about.
        2).  Resolution of Home video:  The standard for American
color video (NTSC, sometimes taken to mean "Never Twice the Same
Color" due to its sensitivity to phase changes) calls for 525 lines
per frame, divided up into two 262.5 line fields, with the first field
scanning all the odd lines, and the second field scanning all the even
lines.  Perhaps this is where you got 260 lines.  Also, not all those
lines are even theoretically visible, as some of them are scanned
while the beam is moving back up to the top of the screen for the next
field.  I don't have my books on TV theory with me, but I recall that
the maximum visible lines even in theory would be about 450.

                                        george bray

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 07/27/81 00:00:00 Re:  NO SPOILER

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They are not even
close to being spoilers, but the subject did arise in the spoiler
section.  Readers who have never heard of Moses may not be interested.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1981 1128-PDT
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Alternative sources of Energy & Moses

I relate the following with absolutely no authority, but I believe I
picked it up in Hebrew school:  When Moses was adopted by Pharaoh's
daughter, there were some questions over whether he might become a
usurper to the throne.  The Pharaoh's advisors required that the baby
Moses pass a test to ensure he had no such desires.  A pile of
sparkling jewels and a pile of hot coals were to be placed before the
baby.  If he reached for the jewels, this was to indicate his ambition
for the throne, and he would be put to death.  Of course, Moses did
start to reach for the jewels, just as any child would, but G-d
intervened by forcing Moses' hand to grasp one of the coals.  Moses
then immediately put his burnt hand in his mouth, thus also burning
his tongue and ruining his public speaking career.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1981 13:38:15-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: History of the Ark, Part II

Although there is nothing in the Bible about Moses grabbing a burning
coal, it is part of Jewish tradition.  I quote from J.H. Hertz's
commentary and notes (very traditionalistic and pietist stuff, too):

        He may have had an actual impediment in his speech.  Rabbinic
        legend tells that Moses when a child was one day taken by
        Pharaoh on his knee.  He thereupon grasped Pharaoh's crown and
        put it on his head.  The astrologers were horror-struck.  "Let
        two braziers be brought" -- they counselled -- "one filled
        with gold, the other with glowing coals.  If he grasps the
        gold, it will be safer for Pharaoh to put the possible usurper
        to death."  When the braziers were brought, the hand of Moses
        was stretching for the gold, but the angel Gabriel guided it
        to the coals.  The child plucked out a burning coal and put it
        to his lips, and for life remained "heavy of speech and heavy
        of tongue."

Many such rabbinic traditions are considered to be absolutely faithful
transmissions of the Oral Law, which theologically is considered the
equal of the written Bible in accuracy and authority.

Incidentally, the business about Aaron being Moses' spokesman IS in
the written version; see Exodus IV, 14-16:  "... And he shall be thy
spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be
to thee a mouth...."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-JUL  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #25
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 JUL 1981 0816-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #25
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 28 Jul 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - "Science Fiction Studies" & Story cooperative,
                       Humor - Spoiler warning,
                   SF Topics - Biblical authority,
               SF Movies - Ark electricity & The Thing,
                        Spoiler - Known Space
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1981 0034-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject:  Science Ficiton Studies

Has anybody read the (British?) journal called "Science Ficiton
Studies"?  Is it any good?  Is it fannish or research oriented?
Thanks...

        Lee

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 21:42:19-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: cooperative story plans

Just how does one get into the game...sounds interesting.  Please mail
appropriate info.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 15:06:42-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Spoilers

Gee, should we start adding spoiler warnings for the Bible?  You know,
something like this:

  MDP@MIT-AI 07/25/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

  The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
  details of the book of Exodus.  Readers who have not read this book
  may wish not to read any further, and may be in peril of their
  immortal souls (cf. Niven's "Convergent Series").

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28 July 1981  03:05-EDT
From: HEDRICK
Subject: citation of sources
I would very much appreciate it if anyone who has something to say
about Moses or the Ark would check to see where his story comes from.
Most readers will assume that what you say is from Scripture.  Few of
us goyim have much familiarity with the Talmud or other sources of
Jewish legends.  I am willing to be educated.  But I would like to
have some idea of what it is that I am reading.

Here are examples of things that I don't recall seeing in my Bible,
and which I thus tentatively assign to Talmud (or its modern
equivalent).  I am not sure that this is the appropriate context for
theological discussions, but I am prepared to discuss these passages
directly with anyone who is interested.

"The Egyptians did not give the Jews the gold from which they made the
calf, it was taken by the Jews During one of the ten 'plagues'
inflicted upon the Pharaoh's subjects when he would not 'let my people
go.'"

"The Jews were told to count fifty days after Moses went up the
mountain, and some of them miscounted and strayed."

"The letters on the tablets, which were created In the Beginning, flew
up to heaven off the tablets and were put on the second set."

"No, an Angel forced him to play stupid and eat a flaming coal as an
infant, this persuaded the Egyptians not to kill him (as was the fad
with other Jewish male infants)."

"Moses was his own spokesman (remember the old LET MY PEOPLE GO!)
until after the ten commandmants.  Then he "BEAMED" from having spent
so much time in the presence of G-d.  The sight of Moses was painful
to the people, who had to avert their eyes.  Aaron became Moses'
spokesman at this point."

"SF-LOVERS might be interested in reading the elaborate description of
a visiting spaceship in Ezekiel 1, and most of Revelations is pretty
interesting."
   [and this from someone who objected to other people's legendary
    interpretations!]

------------------------------

Date: 27 July 1981 10:45-EDT
From: Andrew Tannenbaum <TRB at MIT-MC>
Subject: Errant Stories about Biblical History [re: a spoiler]

There is a reason for there being confusion about Jewish Biblical
history among the contributors to this digest and folks in general.
The Old Testament is known to Jewish scholars as the "written Torah."
There is an "oral Torah" which was written by sages long ago which
contains arguments and explanations regarding the written Torah.  The
oral Torah (which was eventually written down too) in turn, has
commentaries written about it.  Most of this work was done in Hebrew,
some in the common languages of wherever the folks happenned to be
(Ladino in Spain, Aramaic in the Middle east, for instance).

There are few accurate translations of most of the commentaries on the
Torah, so if you don't understand the languages of the sources, you
have to rely on someone who does.

Often, when being taught, even in a Yeshiva, it is easy to have all
that information mingle in your head, and children's stories become
truth.  Also, traditional stories, which aren't held as true by all
sects, are held as true by some.

In the eyes of Jewish Scholars, the Old Testament by itself is no more
useful as a reference tool than a most cryptic and high level
flowchart, you must go to the commentaries to understand anything.
Therefore, saying something is "not in my copy of Exodus" doesn't
really work as the defense of an argument.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 27 Jul 1981 11:08-PDT
From: gail at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Ark as a capacitor

I didn't mention this earlier because it is a really old faded memory
and I'm not sure about it at all.  But it keeps coming back to me with
all this talk about the Ark zapping things.

Seems like I remember someone trying to reconstruct the Ark of the
Covenant according to the description in the Bible.  And it turned out
that they had built a giant capacitor or some such thing.  Does anyone
else remember this story or am I just imagining it?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 2025-PDT
From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL
Subject: Remaking "The Thing"

From Daily Variety, July 27, 1981:

KURT RUSSELL, 10 OTHER ACTORS JOIN CARPENTER'S "THE THING"

(Byline: Todd McCarthy)

     Fresh off their current "Escape From New York" hit, director John
Carpenter and Kurt Russell have pacted to reteam with "The Thing",
Turman-Foster production set to roll for Universal Aug. 24.
     Carpenter has also signed 10 other actors to round out the all-
male cast of his refashioning of the Howard Hawks-Christian Nyby 1951
sci-fi suspenser, in which locations in Alaska and British Columbia
will fill in for the Antartica setting.
     Rob Botin, who won kudos for his work on "The Howling", is
currently developing designs for the various incarnations of the alien
being of the title, and Albert Whitlock is on board to execute special
visual effects.
     Working with a major studio for the first time after making five
indie features and two telepix, Carpenter emphasized that "we are
going back to the original story - Don A. Stuart's 1938 "Who Goes
There?" - and we're going to go out the door with the monster.  Howard
Hawks found himself a good story, but he threw out the real nature of
the monster and went in another direction with it.  Although some
things are the same, this is very different in tone, and we're going
to try to do things that haven't been done before."
     Story involves an American research expedition which discovers a
flying saucer buried in the Antarctic ice.  Once it's excavated, the
dormant "thing" is unleashed, creating havoc and death at the isolated
base and threatening all of mankind down the line.
     In the Hawks version, on which Christian Nyby received directing
credit, James Arness played The Thing, which was affectionately
referred to as an "intelligent carrot".  This time out, following the
lines of the original story, the alien will be able to assume any
shape or identity.  As the director explained, "Whatever it eats, it
can absorb and imitate and take on its form.  Within a few weeks it
would imitate the entire world."
     Carpenter said that original "was really the first modern monster
from outer space movie.  It was done shortly after the big flying
saucer sighting over Mount Rainier in 1948, which caused a big UFO
scare.  This probably inspired Hawks to make the film.  They were also
the first to pit the scientists versus the military, although this has
become a big cliche now."
     Shooting of the $13,000,000 production will consist of five
distinct phases.  First leg, a helicopter chase done over an ice field
near Juneau, has already been accomplished.  Interiors will commence
Aug. 24 at Universal and continue into October, during which time the
"monster unit", headed by Botin, will be working with the creature on
accompanying sets.
     A full-scale camp is being built at Stewart, B.C., on the Alaskan
border, to which the company will hie in November for two-to-five
weeks of lensing, depending on weather.  Being constructed on dry
land, the compound will be surrounded by snow by the time troupe gets
there.
     Final filming stage will involve work with special effects and
inserts of the creature, all of which will hopefully be done by the
end of the year.  A summer, 1982, release is eyeballed.
    The project landed at Universal five years ago.  At one point Tobe
Hooper was in line to direct, but coproducer Stuart Cohen later
interested his former University of Southern California classmate
Carpenter in the idea, and in 1979 Carpenter selected Bill Lancaster
to write the script.
    Ample leeway is being allowed for the location shooting, as "white
out" conditions develop frequently at that time of year and cause
impossible circumstances for filming.  By then, the area only gets
four-to-six hours of daylight, which has resulted in an alternating
day-and-night shooting sked.
     Additional cast members now set are Donald Moffat, A. Wilford
Brimley, Keith David, Joel Pollis, Richard Dysart, Davis Clennon,
T.K. Carter, Thomas Waites, Charles Hallahan and Richard Masur.
     Dean Cundey is director of photography and, as usual with
Carpenter, the pic will be shot in widescreen format.

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/28/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
Niven's Known Space series.  Those who have not read this series,
especially RINGWORLD and sequel, may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 21:40:51-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: "Down in Flames" outline (a long, long time ago...)

Read this when it first came out.  Sounded great, but there was
something about it that bothered me; sure enough, I picked it up
recently.  I was reading \\Tales of Known Space// when I came across
the story "The Borderland of Sol", in which gravity researcher Julian
Forward is using a black hole for space piracy, dropping hyperdriven
ships in the vicinity of Earth back into normal space, looting them at
his leisure, and dumping the remains into selfsame hole.  How does
this square with nonfunctionality of hyperdrive under extreme gravity
gradients being a Tnuctip hoax?
     Also, I am quite sure that no one has missed the perfectly
atrocious (and no doubt premeditated) pun implicit in the title of
this work...or have they?  Obviously, at some point, Shaeffer's Grog
tourist will receive a telepathic summons to come to the aid of his
home planet, which is under fierce attack by Tnuctipun (Tnucti-PUN??).
Beowulf and his merry men arrive on the scene just to see it consumed
in a Tnuctip-triggered nova, thereby realizing the title.

                                Regards,
                                Bill Laubenheimer

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 04:23:53-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Spoiler:  "Ringworld Engineers", maybe Known Space series

Hey -- let's introduce a whole new topic of discussion -- science
fiction books!  (I know, who am I to talk, after my "Raiders" puns, my
rambling discourses on Jewish traditions, the Biblical excerpts....)

Anyway -- I first read "Ringworld Engineers" in a borrowed hardcover
edition which had to be returned the next day; accordingly, I read it
hurriedly, and wasn't always awake.  I reread it when the paperback
edition came out, and I reread it again this weekend.  Each time, I've
come away dissatisfied.  I keep getting the feeling that Niven's
attempt to clean up the loose ends in "Ringworld" and his other works
(notably "Protector") has left a whole new set of problems.  And I
didn't particularly like being told that much of what we had learned
from "Ringworld" was false, because a key character lied.
Nevertheless, I can't put my finger on any major questions or
inconsistencies.  Does anyone share my reactions?

Some points to ponder:

        * Is the puppeteer behavior consistent?  Is "Ringworld" really
          plausible in light of past puppeteer meddling on the
          Ringworld?
        * Where did "rishathra" come from?  There's no mention of it
          in the first volume, but it's a long-standing tool of
          diplomacy in the second.  Other aspects of the City
          Builders' sex lives seem questionable, too.

        * Too much of the activity in the second volume seems to be
          concentrated in too small an area, too close to where they
          were the previous time.  The luck of Teela Brown?

        * The thing's too big!  Niven seems to be assuming far too
          much cultural homogeneity for such a large structure.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #26
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 AUG 1981 1335-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #26
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Sat, 1 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
                 Administrivia - No missing digests,
                   SF Fandom - The Patchin Review,
                SF Books - Self-reproducing factories,
                   SF TV - Science shows upcoming,
          SF Movies - Thing original author & Studios query,
          SF Topics - Bible SF? & Von Daniken & Arkapacitor,
                     Spoiler - Known Space series
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1981 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: No missing digests

The last couple of days I have had a mild flu which did not keep me
constantly in bed, but which did manage to obliterate my usual
effectiveness at work and play.  This digest numbers Volume 4, Issue
#26, right after Tuesday's.

Regards,
    Mike

------------------------------

Date: 31 July 1981 03:40-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: The Patchin Review

It's possible that some of SFL's readers may possibly be interested in
a (heaven forbid) paper fanzine.  If so, \The Patchin Review/ may be
of interest.  Published by Charles Platt, the zine is $12 for 6 issues
from The Patchin Review; 9 Patchin Place; New York, NY 10011.

\The Patchin Review/'s first issue appears to herald this zine as the
new magazine of complaint for the "New Wave".  It describes itself as
"the unique and controversial guide to science fiction", and, while it
is probably not a good guide, it *is* interesting.

The first issue contains a nasty argument between Harlan Ellison and
[compeditor] John Shirley, an attack on the state of SF (and, in
particular, certain other authors' formula writing), and the gossip
about the Nebula Awards banquet that, it claims, \Locus/ found un-fit
to print.  All this and more.  Over seventy 30-word book reviews.

You're right if you can't tell if the above is praise or faultfinding.
The magazine certainly is interesting, and may well cover aspects of
the genre (eg. infighting) that you may mot find elsewhere.

\The Patchin Review/ is 36 pages, 8 1/2 x 5 1/2.  It is published
"approximately every two months".

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1981 0628-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: ZAPHOD::D_PORTER
Subject: SRF query in SF-Lovers V4 #22

here are a couple of self-reproducing factory stories that i know of:

1. the reproductive system, by john sladek

2. autofac, by philip k. dick
   (available in a collection of dick stories called "the variable
   man")

dave

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1981 0252-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: SCIENCE ON THE AIR (from SCIENCE NEWS Vol. 120 July 25, 1981)

SCIENCE ON THE AIR (from SCIENCE NEWS Vol. 120 July 25, 1981)
   (pbs) NOVA:
      Aug.  4 *
         "The Business of Extinction" -- examination of a multimillion
         dollar animal trade that flourishes despite the imminent
         dager to animal life.
      Aug. 11 *
         "Memories from Eden" -- A look at the new roles and
         responsibilities of zoos.
      Aug. 18 *
         "Voyager: Jupiter and Beyond" -- A summary of Voyager's
         journey through the outer solar system to date and a look to
         the future.
      Aug. 25 *
         "Resolution on Saturn" -- An update of the Voyager I 1979
         exploration of Saturn to commemorate the occasion of Voyager
         II's encounter.  Included will be unique film footage, seen
         for the first time on TV.
   (pbs) FAST FORWARD I
      is a series that examines the revolution in electronic
      technologies and their impacts on our society and culture.
         Aug. 6 *
            "Convivial Machines" -- looks at how technology has, while
            making machines more complex, made them easier to operate.
         Aug. 13 *
            "Bio-Engineering I" -- is an assessment of the
            implications for mankind of technology's influence on
            medicine.
         Aug. 20 *
            "The Information Flow" -- examines new techniques, such as
            satellites, fiber optics and digital switching, to
            disseminate large amounts of information quickly and
            efficiently.
         Aug. 27 *
            "New Perspectives" -- explores the utilization of
            technology to see that which the eye cannot.
   (abc) ABC NEWS CLOSEUP
      Genetic engineering, or recombinant DNA technology, will be the
      subject of one program in August (no date has been set).

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 10:43:13-PDT
From: IngVAX.kalash at Berkeley
Subject: Who Goes There

        Before we forget, the author of "Who Goes There" is actually
John W. Campbell (Don A. Stuart was a pen-name).  Although he thought
that "The Thing" was a bad movie, he didn't mind much as it brought
more people into SF.

                        Joe Kalash


[Thanks also to William M. York (York.Multics at MIT-Multics), Will
Martin (WMartin at Office-3), and Jim Hendler (JHENDLER at BBNA) for
identifying Don A. Stuart as a pen name of John W. Campbell.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1981 1417-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: Motion Picture Studios Query

Does anyone know of an organizational chart of who owns what?  I just
heard MGM just bought United Artist.  Also what are the connections
between studios?  What will the effect of MGM be on UA?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1981 07:53 PDT
From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #25

just remember, god(s?) didn't write the Bible...

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 10:08 PDT
From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Bible as SF?

Somehow I can't help but find it amusing that the Bible is being
discussed in a Science Fiction discussion group.

Shall we next discuss the special effects in "The Ten Commandments"
(remember when Charlton Heston parted the Red Sea)?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 16:28:38-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "Ezekiel saw the wheel, way in the middle of the air"

   The [obscure] mention of the book of Ezekiel is a reference to a
scene in which the prophet sees a wheel of fire from which a creature
with four faces appears.  The scene has the hallucinatory quality of
most of Revelations and of a number of more recent works (e.g.
Coleridge's "Xanadu" and much of Philip K. Dick).
   Unfortunately for science fiction, one of the many hobby horses
that rode off with John Campbell was the theories of von Daniken, who
maintained that our ancestors were taught everything they knew by
visiting spacemen rather than figuring out for themselves (for
instance) the arch, Archimedes' screw, geometry, etc.  Campbell
published an article in ASTOUNDING (I believe in the mid-50's) in
which the vision of Ezekiel was interpreted as such a visit, with the
four faces being gear hung around the outside of a space helmet.
Although von Daniken's theories are not quite as far out as those of
Velikovsky (once summarized as "planets playing billiards around the
sun") they are not accorded any particular respect by most people.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1981 0815-PDT
From: WMartin@Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: Capacitative Ark

You're right in your recollection; I, too, recall that, but I can't
pin it down as to date and personnel involved.  It seems to be vaguely
associated in my mind with the von Daniken "Ancient Astronauts"
business and similar "unexplained mysteries" sorts of things.

What I really can't recall is whether someone just took the
description and theorized that the Ark was a capacitor, or if they
actually built one and tested it.  If they DID build one, I think it
was a small-scale model.  Gold and rare woods and fine workmanship
(divinely inspired, after all) come a little high now...

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 81 1:47:29-EDT (Wed)
From: Phil at bmd70
Subject: The Ark as a capacitor.

        The story about the ark as a giant capacitor probably comes
from Erich Von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods?".  On page 40 of this
book, he comments on the ark's ability to "zap" things in the
following way:

        "Undoubtedly the Ark was electrically charged!  If we
reconstruct it today according to the instructions handed down by
Moses, an electric conductor of several hundred volts is produced.
The boarder and golden crown would have served to charge the condenser
which was formed by the gold plates and a positive and negative
conductor.  If, in addition, one of the two cherubim on the mercy seat
acted as a magnet, the loudspeaker - perhaps even a kind of set for
communication between Moses and the spaceship - was perfect."

        I will refrain from making any comments about this
explanation's credibility, but it is at least a rather humorous
suggestion...
                        Phil <Phil@BMD70>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 10:38:17-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Arkapacitor

   You don't have to build one to find out; the construction plans
(conductor (beaten gold) inside and outside of an insulator (wood))
will definitely make a capacitor.  The only question is how much
charge it will store; I don't have any of the necessary formulae at
hand (including the dielectric constant of whatever wood was
specified) but I suspect that, if the Ark was as heavy as descriptions
suggest, the insulation would be too thick to allow the Ark a high
capacitance.

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1981 14:26 edt
From: Gubbins.4506i14TK at RADC-Multics
Subject: Getting a real charge from the ark

     As Gail at RAND-UNIX pointed out : It is thought that the ark of
the Old Testament is a large capacitor and that she heard something
about a replica being made that lead to this conclusion.  Allow me to
relate my fragmented knowledge.

     5 years ago, as a sophomore in High School, the Roman Catholic
priest I had (He was considered very controversial) for religion class
told us about the Bible College that he attended somewhere in the
south (Tennessee ?).  Well anyway, one of the graduation classes there
decided to build for the college an accurate duplicate of the ark of
the covenant as best as research would allow.  It was a wooden box cut
to the proper cubits in dimension, covered with gold.  Two angel-like
figures were put on the lid.  The sides had the 2 sets of rings in
which the ark was carried by wooden poles.
     One day an Engineer from the local G.E. plant came to visit his
son.  While in the lobby where the replica was displayed, he heard
music emanating from the ark.  Thinking that a jokester put a radio in
it, he opened it.  As he did so the music (which was from the local
radio station) ceased.  Many people experienced this phenomenon on an
offbeat basis.
     The replica was hauled to G.E. for study.  The engineers
discovered it to be the largest and a rather good capacitor.  It was
disassembled for safety reasons as it was found to pack quite a
charge, even in a short period of time.
     Now I do not want to downplay God or the Bible, but my schooling
as an electrical Engineering major causes me to believe that the
priest that tried to prevent the ark from falling during transport,
was not struck down by God as told in the Bible (2 SAM 6 ???).  But
that in fact was fried by the static charge build-up of the ark.  The
tradition was that the ark was carried by wooden poles through the
rings in the sides.  It was always in a hot, dry climate.  The people
were told that anyone that touched the ark, God would strike down in
anger.  Seeing this priest fried they had to believe what they had
been told.
     Weeks later, King David put both hands on the ark to kill himself
for his sin, but nothing happened.  The charge did not have a few
hundred ungrounded years to build back its charge again.

     The above is memory only, I was never quite good in Biblical
facts.

                                        Til next time ---
                                            Gern

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 07/31/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They reveal
details about Niven's Known Space series, in particular Ringworld and
Ringworld Engineers.  Readers not familiar with this series may wish
not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 2111-PDT
From: FORWARD at USC-ECL
Subject: Hoax in \\Tales of Known Space//

     The Tnuctip hoax about the nonfunctionality of hyperdrive under
extreme gravity gradients was a hoax.

                                     Sincerest Regards,
                                     Dr. Julian Forward

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1981 18:36-EDT
From: "Kenneth W. Haase,  Jr." <KWH at MIT-AI>
Subject: Ringworld (Spoiler- I think)

In Ringworld Engineers (can anyone think of a good, indecipherable
acronym for it?)  Niven does not assume great cultural homogeneity-
Louis Wu only explores a fraction of the Ringworld and finds a good
deal of cultural differentiation even in that miniscule portion of the
Ringworld.  And those portions which he explored had a great deal of
intercourse (in both a literal and symbolic sense!) with the areas
surrounding it, encouraging some degree of cultural homogeneity- (I
was suprised there wasn't more- but "nationalism" seems to have
supressed that...)

Also, rishathra probably wasn't mentioned in the first novel because
it was centered in a place significantly far away from where the
second novel took place (which could have been a Teela Brown factor)-
The inhomogeneity of Ringworld shows up here, where the distances are
considerably greater between the two novels than within the second-


[How about just tRwE?  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 10:31:35-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RINGWORLD ENGINEERS inconsistencies

   1. It was my impression that there had been relatively little
previous meddling by the puppeteers on the ringworld; even the
"liberal" party was terrified that the builders might still be around.
   2. Prill is the only city builder seen in part 1; most of the
contacts with natives are made by Speaker, who looks sufficiently
dangerous that people could be excused for not proposing rishathra to
him.
   3. No comment on location, except that that wasn't really my
impression (I haven't exactly been motivated to study the thing).
   4. Niven has previously mentioned the homogenizing effect of easy
transportation (see the beginning of RINGWORLD)---and I don't think
he's ever been especially good at extrapolating cultures.  I also
wonder how much the protectors were manipulating things from behind
the scenes; as shown previously, they have a low opinion of change.

  My dissatisfaction with the book stemmed less from holes in the
planning than from the fact that the whole piece seemed basically
unnecessary/unmotivated.  When one woman dies in Anderson's A KNIGHT
OF GHOSTS AND SHADOWS, that hurts; when 5% of the population of the
ringworld dies, despite the graphic description, my reaction was "So
what?" (although that could be argued as a reflection of Wu's own
emotional deadness).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #27
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 AUG 1981 0901-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #27
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sun, 2 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:
                    Administrivia - Con calendar,
            SF Books - On-line booklists & Writer's grump,
                    SF Topics - Video resolution,
  SF Movies - Dune & Rocky Horror, Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07/02/81 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <MDP@MIT-AI>
Subject: Science Fiction Convention Calendar

The latest Science Fiction Convention Calendar, a major update from
the previous release, is now available for FTP'ing.  In fact, it has
been available for some time now, but a breakdown in communication
delayed its announcement.  We ask our readers not to attend any cons
which have already passed.  Everyone interested in reading this
material should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient
for them.  If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST
and we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will also be
available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Rich
Zellich for compiling the calendar, and to Alyson L. Abramowitz, Roger
Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman, Don Woods, and
Paul Young for providing space for the materials on their systems.


   Site          Filename

MIT-AI          AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CONS
CMUA            TEMP:CONS.TXT[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC       [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Con-Cal
SU-AI           CONS.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics     >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>sf-calendar.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11  KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]cons.txt
DEC TOPS-20     KL2137::FTN20:<SF>CONS.TXT

[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 31 July 1981 15:00-EDT
From: Michael A. Patton <MAP at MIT-AI>
Subject: On-line bibliographies? and/or bibliography maintainers?

I have recently started to make an on-line catalog of my SF collection
and was wondering if anyone else had already done any of the things
I've been thinking about.  In particular I am interested in others
ideas for formats and information that should be listed.  Also I am
particularly interested in whether anyone has any automated tools for
maintaining/perusing such a list.  Please send any information
directly to me (MAP at MIT-AI) and I will make a summary available to
the list.
                Thanks in advance,
                Mike Patton (MAP@MIT-AI)

------------------------------

Date: 1 August 1981 00:51-EDT
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE at MIT-MC>
Subject: writers cramps

        There are rewards to this business, and we all appreciate the
PHANTASIA PRESS limited slip-cased numbered and signed editions,
lovely as they are...

        But Larry and I just got through signing 750 signature sheets
for OATH OF FEALTY and I can testify that it can get tiring.
        (Matter of fact I'm on #295 -- ie 295 to go -- now while
reading my mail and wanted to do SOMETHING to break monotony which is
why this message.)

((For those worried, no commercial gain intended; the Phantasia Press
edition is long since pre-sold...))

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 1732-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: David Dyer-Bennet at KL2137
Subject: sfl responses

(SF-LOVERS Digest         Sat, 25 Jul 1981        Volume 4 : Issue 23)

(J. Spencer Love) Gee, I hate it when I take your jokes seriously,
too.  By the way, is showing a cross to a Jewish vampire intended to
harm the vampire directly, or is it a method of invoking your \own/
god and telling It what you need help with?

(SF-LOVERS Digest         Mon, 27 Jul 1981        Volume 4 : Issue 24)

(hjjh at UTEXAS-11) Excellent response to JSLove on dealing with
Jewish vampires.  Of course, a lot of people I know who identify
themselves as Jewish don't keep kosher, so your solution may not be
completely reliable:  the vampire may not care.

(Raiders puns) I'm sorry to say that I'm \not/ really getting tired of
it; but I wish there were more other stuff in SFL along with them.

(video resolution) My understanding of the various measures of
resolution, and of the actual resolution of various current media, has
been increased noticeably; but I don't think I fully understand yet.
Do we have agreed on answers to the following questions?

1.      What is the vertical resolution of 35mm still panatomic-x film
when used with a first-rate lens?

2.      What is the theoretical resolution of the current broadcast
color TV standard?

3.      What, roughly, is the practical resolution of the current
broadcast color TV standard as currently implemented?

4.      What, roughly, is the resolution of films as projected in a
good theatre with 70mm equipment?  (I didn't say the questions were
\answerable/...)

(the resolutions are to be expressed in \the same/ way, whatever way
is most generally considered to be reasonable and proper)

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1981 14:16 edt
From: JRuggiero.PDO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #25

Has anyone heard any news of the new Dune movie ?  I feel that this
story does not belong on film.  The book was so complex that only the
surface could be seen on film and that isn't much to speak of.  Sure,
there are some great fights but that's not what Dune was all about.
Has Herbert made any enlightening remarks ?  I would like to hear his
opinion.  Is he even being consulted ?  I am looking forward to this
flick with very mixed feelings.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 81 4:41:49-EDT (Sun)
From: Michael Muuss <mike@brl>
Subject: RHPS

Can anybody provide me with the lyrics (& dance steps) to The Time
Warp dance from Rocky Horror Picture Show (RHPS)?
                                -Mike

------------------------------


MDP@MIT-AI 08/02/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They mention
events in the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.


------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 11:06:36-EDT
From: c-alayto at CCA-UNIX (Alexis Layton)
Subject: Re: Rats in RotLA

I saw "Raiders..." again last weekend (couldn't help myself) and I
noticed that the rats (one of them, at least) scurried away after the
convulsions scene.  I think this means that they were not killed.
(After all, rats are God's creatures also.)  The sub definitely
intercepted the Bantu Wind south west of Italy -- you can see Sicily
to the far left of the map on the screen.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1981 15:12:06-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: RotLA vs. suspension of disbelief

I can't go along with suggestions that because of all the other
improbabilities in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", we should uncritically
accept the sub scene.  I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on basic
principles, IF the assumed reality is made clear.  Thus -- given the
premise of the story -- the powers of the Ark, etc., are perfectly
consistent.  Similarly, I'll accept elves in "Lord of the Rings",
hyperspace in "Foundation", scrith in "Ringworld" and "Ringworld
Engineers", etc.  But Frodo shouldn't use sonic stunners, Hari Seldon
shouldn't have a ring that makes him invisible, and Louis Wu can't use
psychohistory to calculate the REAL origin of the Ringworld.  And if
Jones is to hitch-hike on a submarine -- an inherently implausible act
-- we are owed some sort of explanation.  Anything else is directorial
laziness.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1981 1739-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: COORS::VICKREY
Subject: Geography and Sub Travel in RotLA

        The sub intercepted the Bantu Wind in the middle of the
        Mediterranean, NOT in mid-Atlantic.  The red line on the map
        shows the sub's passage between Italy and Tunisia, a place
        where the Med is only 90 miles wide.  The island the sub wound
        up at was southeast of Greece.

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1981 2310-EDT
From: Gregg Podnar at CMU-10A
Subject: RotLA: Fly & Gunslinging

Fly-on-the-Lip:
        I believe Lucasfilm wants us to believe the Nazi is so hard
        and insensitive that he would not blink when a fly lands on
        his face, and would not notice the ingestion of same.
        1) I don't believe many actors could hold such a convincing
           character under the circumstances.
        2) The good luck of the timing of the fly on that particular
           take was incredible.
        3) It looked and moved as if it was drawn and animated.
        4) The sound effect was too loud and unnatural for the
           surroundings (it had to be sweetened).
        5) I didn't see any other flies anywhere, anytime.
           [Are flies this size common desert fauna?]
Bravo to a real swell idea:
        Of course!  Use your gun stupid.
        A well executed surprise entrance of a device.  No scenes
        previous to the death-of-a-swordsman let you think that he
        needed a sidearm or that he even had it with him.  Suddenly,
        out comes the biggest revolver in the desert and is employed
        with "You've got to be kidding, I don't have the time to fool
        around anymore" attitude.  All previous attacks on Indiana
        lose a lot of their dangerous qualities as we realize that he
        can do anything and is just playing when he uses a simple
        weapon in an expert fashion.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1981 1739-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: COORS::VICKREY
Subject: Suitability of RotLA for SFL

In response to Bil Lewis' query (Volume 4, Issue 21):

        "What I want to know is why anyone considers it [RotLA]
         material for SFL?  The movie has NOTHING to do with science
         fiction whatsoever...."

FLAME ON!!!

IF one defines science fiction as fiction which postulates a (usually
technological) idea which does not at present exist & builds a story
around that idea, then Raiders is not SF.

***BUT***,
by that definition, neither is Dragonslayers or CloT (and in a way,
neither is SupeII).  All of these have been in SFL recently.

***HOWEVER***,
IF one defines SF to include alternative worlds, fantasy, or in the
extreme case, as a catch-all for all otherwise unclassifiable
material, then RotLA does have a place here.

EXAMPLES:

        With Dragonslayers, we have swords & sorcery, definitely
        elements of fantasy (and frequently of science fiction;
        anybody happen to catch a movie called Star Wars?).

        With Clash of the Titans, we have (fractured) Greek mythology.
        Myths are a form of fantasy, and have also formed the jumping
        off point for a number of sf stories (I remember one terrible
        juvenile setting forth the proposition that EVERYBODY'S
        ancient gods were space colonists lording it over the simple
        natives; the only god left out was (naturally) Yahweh).

        With Superman II, we have (fractured) modern American
        mythology.  (The only "science-fiction-type-science" in SII is
        the Krypton crystals, and they come off as more fantastical
        then scientific.)

        With Raiders of the Lost Ark, we have a jam-packed action-
        adventure flick with good guys & bad guys, cliffhangers & some
        cliffs, fights & love (none of this, I concede, exclusive to
        SF), AND the active intervention of a very angry GOD.  This
        last puts RotLA in the running, as it may be interpreted
        (according to your beliefs) as:

                1) the divine (& justified) wrath of God,
                2) blasphemy,
                3) fantasy.

        At any rate, it is not part of our modern, every day existence
        (anybody & anywhere in the world).

FLAME OFF!!!

Besides, it's too damned good a movie not to yak about.

Regards,
Susan

P.S.    Re: ihass!nhtsa!research!alice!wolit at Berkeley's flame on
        the argument about the sub ride:
        RIGHTON!
        It IS silly to quibble over how Indy hung on and for how long
        and etc. while accepting without comment the "reality" of the
        Wrath of God.

        Anybody care to start an argument on that?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #28
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 AUG 1981 0851-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #28
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 3 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:
                   Administrivia - Star Trek guide,
              SF Topics - Vampires' religion tradition,
                   SF Fandom - Attending past cons,
  SF Books - The Old and New Anthologies, SF Movies - Dune & RotLA,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3-Aug-1981 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <MDP@MIT-AI>
Subject: Star Trek Episode Guide

A Star Trek concordance containing ratings and short summaries of Star
Trek episodes, prepared in '74-5 by Don Woods' old crowd at Princeton,
is now available for FTP'ing.  Everyone interested in reading this
material should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient
for them.  If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST
and we will be happy to see that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will also be
available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Don
Woods for typing in the concordance, and to Alyson L. Abramowitz,
Roger Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman, and Paul
Young for providing space for the materials on their systems.


   Site          Filename

MIT-AI          AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS TREK
CMUA            TEMP:TREK.SFL[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Trek
SU-AI           TREK.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics     >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>trek-guide.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11  KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]trekguide.txt
DEC TOPS-20     KL2137::FTN20:<SF>TREK.SFL

[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1981 12:37:11-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: past cons & vampires

To the moderator:  why can't we attend a convention that's already
happened?  I wanna go to Westercon!

To David Dyer-Bennett:  I believe that the traditional interpretation
is that the vampire is specifically repelled by the symbols of a
religion he has abandoned/defied.  The problem is where you take your
tradition from; the original of Dracula was an ultra-Christian who
impaled Turks (i.e. Moslems) and alleged heretics.  Would anybody care
to be scholarly and trace to where the legend flipped to the form
Stoker wrote up?

------------------------------

Date: 2-Aug-81 15:45:40 PDT
From: Woods.pa @ PARC-MAXC
Subject: attending past cons

I don't see what's wrong with SF-Lovers readers attending cons that
have already passed.  After all, this IS an SF audience!

Of course, readers who DO choose to attend a con that has already
passed should be sure not to mention SF-Lovers.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1981 13:41 PDT
From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Convention Calendar (V4 #27)

Re: "We ask our readers not to attend any cons which have already
passed."

Gee ... and I've been wanting to try out my brand new time machine
anyway ...

------------------------------

Date: 08/02/81 17:39:38
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: The Bible in SF

well, why CAN'T we discuss the Bible as part of SF?  Certainly it is
on most people's lists as creative FICTION, is it not?

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1981 14:58:26-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: God and the Bible

   The MITSFS has for the past couple of decades shelved and
catalogged copies of the Old and New Testaments as anthologies edited
by God (since even the theistically-oriented allegedly academic
versions will try to assign specific worldly authors to most "books"
of it).

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1981 1049-PDT
From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL
Subject: Dune - The Movie

     Universal and Dino deLaurentis are in pre-production on the Dune
movie.  There was an earlier version of the movie in work by a French
film company that fell apart and the movie rights reverted back to
Herbert.  He became associated with Dino when he (Herbert) was brought
in to write one of the many scripts for the Flash Gordon movie.
Herbert also did one of the first scripts for the Dune movie, but I
believe that other writers have since worked on the project and I'm
not certain who will end up with screen credit.
     Dune, The Movie, will probably be made (financial problems some
months back have been resolved with the teaming of Dino and
Universal), in the great tradition of King Kong and Flash Gordon.
     But, maybe we'll get lucky this time around.

                     Ted Pedersen <Pedersen@USC-ECL>

------------------------------

Date: 08/02/81 17:58:43
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: RotLA's place in SF-Lovers

[Enter Sarcasm Mode]

Conveniently forgotten is the ORIGIN of RotLa.  Some unknown named
Lucas hired an unknown named Spielberg (both have nothing to do with
SF, right?) to make a film.

[Exit Sarcasm Mode]

SERIOUSLY, isn't ANYTHING that LucasFilm makes after SW4 and SW5
**worth** some pages in this forum?  (Except for, perhaps, if they
made yet another sequel to "American Grafitti"...)

/Mijjil

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/03/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses some of
the events of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not yet seen this movie may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1981 12:37:11-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: The sword scene in RotLA

I wouldn't say that Indy was in no danger from the other attackers for
a number of reasons:
  1) Adrenalin is a great aid to effective fighting.  People with
handguns tend to get careless and think themselves invulnerable (cf.
early scenes in Heinlein's TUNNEL IN THE SKY), which would make them
slower.
  2) A gun itself is all offense and no defense.  Given the fanatic
attack, Jones might have killed one or two of the first swordsmen and
been spitted by the third, while a whip is shield and sword together.
Against a single showoff (who might also have good enough steel that
he could cut up the whip) a gun is reasonable.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #29
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 AUG 1981 0824-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #29
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 4 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:
        SF Books - Odyssey Two & SF Studies & Demolished Man,
                      SF Fandom - No past cons?,
           SF Topics - Diamonds from heaven & Patent lies,
                SF TV - The Prisoner & Kentucky Smith,
              SF Movies - Raiders fly & Raiders on SFL?,
                 Spoiler - Niven's Known Space series
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3-Aug-81 12:19:03 PDT (Monday)
From: Newman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: 2010, Another Space Odyssey?

Arthur C. Clarke has received a 7-figure advance from Del Rey Books
for a book to be called "2010: Odyssey Two", according to the "Book
Notes" column of yesterday's Los Angeles Times Book Review.  This
sequel to "2001" should be finished by November, 1982.  The item
quotes Clarke:

  "Not a day goes by that I don't receive at least one letter asking
me what happened to Dave or HAL.  I simply felt I owed it to my
readers to complete the story".

No mention of movie rights yet.

/Ron Newman

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1981 1222-PDT
From: ISAACS at SRI-KL
Subject: science fiction studies

  SFS is a Canadian magazine (in the sense it is published out of
Concordia University in Montreal, Canada).  It is NOT fannish; it is a
literary criticism magazine, and it treats SF as literature.  As a
programmer, I find some of the magazine tough going, but a lot if it
is interesting.  I can dig up subscription information if anyone
wants.
       --- Stan Isaacs

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1981 (Monday) 1728-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: SF book => movie?

My paperback copy of Alfred Bester's \The Demolished Man/ has a banner
across the top:  "Soon to be a major motion picture!" or something
like that.  Any further news?
                                -- Sam

------------------------------

Date: 08/03/81 22:36:07
From: DP@MIT-ML

What do you mean no attending past cons?  What am I going to do with
my Mpls in '73 post supporting membership?
                                        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 3 August 1981  09:26-EDT (Monday)
From: David Goldfarb <GOLDFARB at MIT-XX>
Subject: Life on planets??

Seen in a recent AP bulletin:

a201  0840  01 Aug 81
AM-News Digest,

                           AP News Digest
                           For Sunday AMs

                                .
                                .
                                .

      SPARKLING PLANETS: Diamonds May Cover Uranus and Neptune

    NEW YORK - The planets Uranus and Neptune are not covered with
frozen ammonia and methane as some scientists say, but they might be
covered with another kind of glittering ice - diamonds, a new report
says. Slug AM-Diamond Planets. New, will stand. 490 words. Laserphoto
NY21.


Some comments/questions:
1- Would anyone care to estimate how many diamonds would have to be
retrieved in order to finance an expedition?
2- What would that do to the global price of diamonds?
3- One of the folks around here, Sally Griffenberg, has the equally
plausible idea that the "glittering ice" does not really consist of
diamonds, but rather of some alien life form which, when made into
rings, will bore its way into the wearer's finger and take it over!
        "Invasion of the Finger Snatchers"??

                                - David

------------------------------

Date: 3 August 1981 15:03-EDT
From: Steve Strassmann <straz at MIT-AI>
Subject: Don't believe everything you read
Here at the MIT AI lab, we've had a page from the April Fool's Day
issue of \New Scientist/ pinned to the bulletin board, but it didn't
catch my eye [much] until I read the August issue of \Omni/.

In the \Continuum/ section of Omni, they herald the invention of a
"Photon push-pull radiation detector for use in chromatically
selective cat flap control and 1000 megatonne earth-orbital,
peace-keeping bomb", British patent #1 426 698.  It was created by a
deceased Patent Office clerk who wanted to distinguish between the
entrance into his house of his own ginger cat, and that of a
neighborhood black cat.  He soon found it useful as a detonator for an
orbiting nuclear bomb and patented it as such.

Omni didn't mind giving credit to \New Scientist/ for reporting the
patent first, but it also didn't mention that the other patents in
that section included one for a telepathic integrated circuit (TIC)
that speeds up the processing of signals by anticipating them before
they arrive on-chip.  Certain advanced pre-guessing circuits (APGC's)
rely on an electrical characteristic known as "phase lead," the
opposite of phase lag, a measure of signal delay.

Of course, this kind of makes you wonder about the validity of the
rest of the Omni news briefs...

Steve Strassmann
straz at MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1981 2108-EDT
From: Rob Stanzel <G.ROB at MIT-EECS>
Subject: The Prisoner

From Stereo Review, August 81:

     The Teenage Filmstars, an English New Wave band, have just
     recorded a long-overdue tribute to "The Prisoner", the surreal,
     cult-favorite 1967 TV series which was the first commercial-
     television production ever re-broadcast on PBS.  Available on the
     Fab Listening label, the tune is entitled "I Helped Patrick
     McGoohan Escape", after the show's creator and star.  The sun has
     not yet set on the Empire.

I haven't heard/found this cut yet, so I can't comment further...
                                                                 Rob

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1981 1833-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: RotLA on Saturday Morning

     Scuttlebutt has it that Hanna-Barbera Prods. is, at this moment,
mapping out their presentation for a new show they intend to try to
sell the networks.  The title is tentatively the same as the lead --
Kentucky Smith......
                   ooog.........
                                   Rodof

------------------------------

Date: 08/03/81 09:06:02
From: TRB@MIT-MC
Subject: The loud noise made by the RotLA Fly

Gregg Podnar@CMU10A gives the impression that if the RotLA fly was
real then its sound would have been more natural:
    ...
    4) The sound effect was too loud and unnatural for surroundings
    (it had to be sweetened).

If you hear a sound in a movie that doesn't come from an actor's
throat then you can be sure that it was added in after the fact.
Every gunshot, every explosion, every laser blast, every screeching
tire, every fly.  Real or animated.  We would find live sounds in
films to be extremely disappointing (at least that's the opinion of
filmmakers).
        Andy Tannenbaum
        Bell Labs Whippany

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1981 1234-PDT
From: ISAACS at SRI-KL
Subject: RotLA suitability

  I agree with Lewis that RotLA is not Science Fiction, although
(especially because of its director and producer) I see nothing wrong
with some discussion of it here (but so much??).  I think there is a
big difference between straight adventure stories/films, and SF or
fantasy adventure; a difference in attitude, and in what beliefs you
are willing to suspend.  When I saw Raiders, I had seen it mentioned
here, not read any reviews, and expected SF.  I was disappointed, and
was half-way through before I could relax and enjoy it on its own
terms.  Next time I see it, I think I will enjoy it much more.
    --- Stan

------------------------------

Date: 3 August 1981 2122-EDT (Monday)
From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60)
Subject: RotLA not SF?

I think all the discussion on this point has been off the mark.
Science fiction does not cover only space and the future.  Isn't
archeology a science?  Or are you suggesting that RotLA isn't fiction?
If I had seen it in my formative years you might have found me
excavating in the Amazon instead of pushing bits ...  (hmmm when do
formative years end ...)

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/04/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses the
Niven essay, "Down in Flames".  Readers not thoroughly familiar with
the Known Space series may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 3 August 1981 0918-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: Biblical Rantings

Gevalt!  To hear such a bunch of goyim arguing about the Bible as if
they was beck from the old days like Akiva or Elazar son of Azariah,
it's enough to my make me plotz!  Ten' Gott that mine grenfadder the
Rebbi ain't here to see this, God rest his soul, though he is probably
rolling in his grave, gatsedunk!

So much for my week's Yiddish shtick.  You are all aware, aren't you,
that the Nazi sub base was on the island of Navarrone in the Aegean?

(Why not?  Both exist in alternative realities; why not the same one?)

On a more serious note, I reread the Down in Flames Outline, and I was
once more not terribly willing to accept that most of what I had read
and had had extrapolated before my nose was a hoax.  I had enough
trouble swallowing RwE (someone had asked for an Abreviation in
classic SFLover style); if the Pak are so damn powerful, and the
Tnuctipun are so widespread in their surveillance, why haven't the Pak
been attacked?

Part of the problem with writing on so large a scale is that you make
larger and more outrageous assumptions to a point where you a)
contradict yourself, and/or b) suspend a reader's willingness to
believe.  After writing the Known Space series, in which Niven does
make a fairly good effort to keep things consistent, I feel that Down
in Flames would be a large mistake.

bye for now.

                                                mitch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #30
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 AUG 1981 0752-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #30
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Wed, 5 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:
          SF Fandom - Past cons, SF Books - Demolished Man,
                SF Topics - Phony patents & Diamonds,
                     SF TV - Fast Forward & Indy,
               SF Movies - Revenge of the Jedi & 2010,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 4 August 1981  20:26-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Mentioning SFL in past cons

Readers who go to cons far enough in the past should feel free to
mention SFL, because if we were going to get any flack about it we
would have gotten it already, and we haven't, so we're safe.

                        Ken

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 10:30:53-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: several

   DIAMONDS:  The current supply of diamonds is extremely tightly
controlled by a small number of Dutch/South African firms (notably
DeBeers), although you might not realize it looking at them "panning"
the beaches of Namibia at the rate of several hundred tons of sand a
day.  If current controls were broken diamond prices would drop
dramatically; obviously this would also happen if diamonds were
brought back from somewhere else at anything less than exorbitant
cost.  It could be argued that controls aren't all bad, because there
are several industries that need a small steady flow of diamonds.
   THE DEMOLISHED MAN:  was mentioned in CINEFANTASTIQUE about three
years ago as an upcoming project for Brian de Palma, who I think would
do a terrible job on it (all flash and no substance, just like
CARRIE).  Since then I've heard nothing; possibly Bester, who's much
more talented than de Palma and probably better at spotting phonies,
may have scotched the project.
   PHOTON DETECTORS:  Well, OMNI has a humor section of its own, but
usually that's kept well away from the body of the magazine.  I wonder
if they'd be interested in the latest news about the 3N120DB (a noise-
emitting diode), WOM (write-only memory), and the fuzz-locked loop?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 0842-PDT
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF
Subject: re Don't believe everything you read

In the April 9th's issue of \New Scientist/ it is revealed that the
"cat flap / nuke dropper" patent, mentioned in an April Fool's Day
page of the preceding issue, is in fact a genuine British patent -
apparently the submitter, having been an official patent examiner,
knew the legal ropes well enough to force the patent office into
accepting it!
   The April Fool's Day New Scientist was mostly a genuine April 2nd
issue, with a few April 1st pages - particularly effective when it
arrived at our library some time after April 1st.  I particularly
liked the report on a natural process of bubble-containment nuclear
fusion discovered to be taking place in cannonballs recovered from a
16th century wreck off the Argyll coast...

Martin S. Feather

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 11:12 PDT
From: kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: diamonds around Uranus and Neptune

Does anybody know what the difference is between naturally occurring
diamonds and the "man-made" ones used in industry?  How are the latter
inferior?  (I suppose they must be, or we'd be buying diamonds in
Woolworth's.....)

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 1724-MDT
From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish)
Subject: "Fast Forward" query

The recent "Science on the Air" message lists some very interesting-
sounding programs from the "Fast Forward" series.  I hear that the
series consists of either 13 or 26 programs, on the order of "Nova",
but specializing in computer and electronic technology issues.

Unfortunately, the series is not currently being broadcast by either
of our local PBS stations.  Does anybody know where the programs
actually \are/ being broadcast?

I am also interested in knowing where the series was produced, and
estimates of its quality and timeliness, etc. to aid in getting it
underwritten as part of the programming here.  Is it good enough for a
Computer Science department to use educationally?

Cheers!

-Russ

------------------------------

Date: 4-Aug-81 13:58:04 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: RotLA on Saturday morning

Now that you mention it, wasn't there a short-lived TV series in the
mid-60's called "Kentucky Jones", starring Dennis Weaver?  Who's
ripping off whom?

--Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 81 22:51:04-EDT (Tue)
From: Sue at BRL
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

According to one of our local newspapers, Richard Marquand recently
signed a contract to direct the third Star Wars episode.  The same
article mentioned that locations would include North Africa and
Germany.
                Sue

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 4 August 1981  20:28-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: 2010, Another Space Odyssey?

It's hopeless.  2001 has an END.  It was written/produced back before
every writer/producer put a hook at the end of his work just in case
he wanted to write a sequel.

                            Ken

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/05/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They allude to
events of the recent movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who
have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 10:39:36-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: RotLA as SF (spoiler?)

   I think there's a question of perspective here.  RotLA represents a
strain of [literature] that was only slightly distinguished from SF in
its time (30's).  A lot of collectors will include in SF not
necessarily the whole run of a pulp magazine with the generalized
adventure theme but at least those in which there is some perceptible
element of high-technology or the supernatural.  (The Nazi's flying
wing is a questionable example since we don't actually see it \\do//
anything, but the Ark definitely fits.)  Similarly, lost race stories
(from Gulliver on out) are included in SF precisely because they are
speculations about the knowable unknown; except for its much wider
audience, the Amazon Basin in the 1880's corresponds to Mars in the
1950's (and the wider audience comes at least from the fact that the
Amazon was reachable, while Mars in the 50's was not considered to be
attainable---has anyone reread recently the New York TIMES editorial
chiding Goddard (around 1930) because a rocket in space would have
"nothing to push against"?).

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 1649-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: AURORA::PIERSON
Subject: Swords and guns in RotLA

        Using gun against the super swordsman was intelligent one-
    upmanship.  Use of the gun earlier wouldn't have been as good an
    idea.  For one thing a normal revolver only has six shots, I seem
    to remember a lot more than six random swordmen...

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1981 1604-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: David Dyer-Bennet at KL2137
Subject: SFL responses

(SF-LOVERS Digest         Sun, 2 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 27)

(COORS::VICKREY) I thought I already \had/ started an argument over
the sub scene.  But okay, here goes.  Throughout the movie, with the
exception of that one scene, Indy meets ordinary material obstacles
with ordinary material resources and triumphs by stamina and
ingenuity.  There is never any mystery about how he accomplishes what
he does.  In the sub scene, in contrast, he accomplishes something
that appears to require extraordinary resources which we have no
reason to believe that he has.  This is a sudden violation of the
apparent premises of the movie, which is made worse by the fact that,
if he cannot accomplish this seemingly impossible feat, he has lost
contact with the ark and lost the game.

Now, God in the movie does lots of things that aren't explicable in
material terms, but on the other hand the Christian mythology, and
more generally the ordinary conceptions of god everywhere, do not
require It to behave in a materially explicable way.

In other words, God's capabilities are consistent within the movie,
and for that matter between the movie and the real world; whereas
Indy's capabilities are not.  Therefore I object to the sub scene, but
not to any of God's major scenes.

(SF-LOVERS Digest         Mon, 3 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 28)

(Woods.pa @ PARC-MAXC) On attending past cons:  I'm a post-supporting
member of the Minneapolis in '73 Worldcon bid, and I'm certainly
planning to attend when the convention is held.  I don't see why other
people shouldn't attend other cons in the same fashion.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-AUG  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #31
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 AUG 1981 0927-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #31
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Thu, 6 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:
                   SF Fandom - Attending past cons,
  SF Books - Jupiter plot query, SF Topics - Diamonds & Inventions,
   SF TV - Fast Forward & Kentucky Jones, SF Movies - 2010 & Dune,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 0932-PDT
From: POP at USC-ISIF
Subject: mentioning SFL in past cons

Having never been to a Con before, and intrigued by the idea of going
to one in the past, I decided the other day to pick one of the
reputedly better cons of the past few years, attend it, and try
mentioning SFL.  Just then, I appeared in my office and told me not to
do it after all.  Guess it must be a bad mistake.
Dr. Who.

------------------------------

Date: 08/05/81 11:18:35
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: heres the plot (sorta) whats the title/author?

After the FIRST Voyager passed Jupiter we discovered that the giant
gives off more energy (radiation) than the sun shines on it.
Physicists theorize that perhaps Jupiter is an "unborn" star - one
that didn't quite make it.

(The above is FACT (or actually speculation) in OUR universe).

The story:

        The US sends an exploratory craft into Jupiter's atmosphere -
a nuclear driven craft.  Some crazy reaction causes Jupiter's
atmosphere to IGNITE, the heat reaches atomic temperatures, and the
chain reaction drives the birth of Jupiter into a star - and suddenly
part of Mars is fried off, all of the moons of jupiter are snared
either INTO the new sun to be destroyed, or around it as a sub-solar
system - and the remaining planets (including the surviving Earth) are
now in a binary star-system.

Sound familiar to ANYBODY?  I have a lot of local friends who are well
read in SF and NONE can name it...

/Mijjil

------------------------------
Date: 5 Aug 1981 11:27:53-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: man-made diamonds

   Well, my first recollection is that "industrial grade" is a rating
for diamonds with substantially less stringent requirements than "gem
grade".  They can be too small to facet properly and of thoroughly
inferior color (I recall that relatively few diamonds are either the
brilliant clear color or some other interesting (as opposed to dull or
revolting) shade).
   Moreover, I haven't heard of man-made diamonds being extensively
available; if they were, I'd expect them still to be quite expensive.
Many man-made jewels are furnace-grown (they're already oxides of this
and that, while trying to grow a carbon crystal in a furnace would
lose); I think the only method to make diamonds still requires
enormous amounts of pressure.  A sliver of crystal for a bearing can
be made this way, or dust for a cutter, but gems of significant size
would require a more powerful press---and if the market is controlled
as tightly as I'm told, it might amuse DeBeers etc. to cut the price
just enough to ruin someone who made such an investment.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 (Wednesday) 1841-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: April Fool's technology on the BBC

The BBC has a tradition of April Fool's programs.  I don't know if it
was patented, but one April 1 the BBC announced that it was testing a
new type of TV transmission called Smellavision.  Because the device
was not perfected, the 'viewer' was asked to get down on his hands and
knees next to his set and try to detect the faint odor of an orange,
also displayed.  The BBC received many letters--"why, yes, I actually
did smell the orange."
   Another April Fool's they aired a documentary on the Spaghetti
harvest in Italy.
                                -- Sam

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 0811-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: FAST FORWARD

I found this to be an excellent series.  It was produced in Canada, so
there are a lot of Bell Northern references and use of their
facilities for examples.  It was the first show I ever saw that
actually showed the ARPANET being used in a realistic manner, and it
has lots of other references to various Artificial Intelligence,
computer graphics, and office automation developments.  It is a few
years old, and is geared to the general audience, so there are some
(well-done) basic electronics comments and explanations.  I saw it
first about a year or so (was it two?) ago; there was a comment and
recommendation about it in SFL or Human-Nets at the time.

While it was only 13 episodes (I believe) at its first showing, I have
been seeing episodes I don't recall during this current re-run, so
maybe PBS got rights to the rest of it, or the next year's worth.  It
is shown here in St. Louis on KETC, channel 9.

The theme of the show seems to be more communications in general than
computer science specifically; topics range over television history,
electronic music, computer graphics used in art and science, etc.  It
should be a good introduction and general overview type of thing if a
school would have it on videotape and either show the whole thing at
the start of a course, one right after the other, or use them as
illustrations for reading assignments and discussion-group stimulus.
It probably is at least as up-to-date as most texts, after all.

I would lean toward using it at the highschool level more than
college, but it would be a good freshman-level teaching aid, too, I
guess.  As I think back over the episodes, I seem to recall the
earlier ones to be more rewarding and the later ones more groping for
topics and rather fluffy in comparison.  Nonetheless, I would like to
have a chance to see them all again myself.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 1258-EDT
From: SWG at MIT-XX
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #30

Yes, /Kentucky Jones/ ran on NBC in 1964-65 and featured Dennis Weaver
and Harry Morgan.  "He had acquired the nickname Kentucky because of
the way he signed his name:  `K. Y. Jones.'" -- Brooks and Marsh, /The
Complete Directory to Prime Time Network TV Shows/.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 10:01 PDT
From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: 2010, Another Space Odyssey?

My feeling is just the opposite: 2001 was a BEGINNING.  Remember Moon-
Watcher the ape?  He thought of something to do with his new world.
I, for one, would like to see what Dave decides to do with his.

-- Bob

------------------------------

Date: 08/05/81 11:08:22
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: Dune, The Motion Picture

Re: Dino DeLaurentis

May his knife chip and shatter!

/Mijjil

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/06/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses an
event of the recent movie "Readers of the Lost Ark".  Raiders who have
not scene this movie may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 16:18 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: submarines

Okay, I'll enter the budding fray.  When I saw the movie, I wondered
about the submarine ride, and came up with two explanations.

(1) Submarines don't always travel completely submerged unless they
expect to be encountering ships (I have no idea whether this is in
fact true), so Indy just rode along on top.

(2) It's an impossible feat that was deliberately thrown in as another
piece of satire, just like shooting the swordsman and the Nazi coat-
hanger were small bits of satire.

Take your pick.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #32
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 AUG 1981 0759-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #32
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Fri, 7 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:
                       SF Fandom - Conventions,
        SF Books - Jupiter ignites & Known Space consistency,
            SF Topics - Hi-res video & Man-made diamonds,
       SF TV - Fast Forward & ABC miscellany & Star Trek guide,
       SF Movies - MGM&UA non-answer & Biblical Ark references,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 08/06/81 08:00:11
From: PCR@MIT-MC
Subject: Media Types at WorldCon?

I have a lady friend who is more or less planning to go to Denver for
the worldcon, but she is a real SF media (TV/movie) junkie, and she
would like to know what media people are planning to be there.  Does
anybody out there have any information?

                                          ...phil

------------------------------

Date:  7 Aug 1981 0045-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Flash from SIGGRAPH

  Having spent the past week at SIGGRAPH (I was wearing my SFL T-shirt
on Wednesday, but no one commented) I did pick up some interesting
gossip.
  There is an upcoming movie called LOOKER (not sure if a feature or
short) that will feature some ASTOUNDING computer animation.  I don't
yet know what will be happening with the film and its due date, but
see it if you can.
  A member of Lucasfilms reported to me that he was there when Lucas
was handed the print out of SF-Lovers Empire discussion.  When asked
questions about Luke's parentage and Yoda's other this gentleman's
only reply was "Remember the clone wars, anything can happen."
  -Jim
p.s. Anyone going to the Cog. Sci conference at Berkeley??  Let me
know.
  -jh

------------------------------

Date: 6 August 1981 17:53-EDT
From: "Patrick J. Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: SFL 4#31; Here's plot, what's title?

  I had also read that story about the freak accident which ignites
Jupiter, and somehow, I think that it has the mark of Niven on it.
I'll have to do some research on it.

--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 08/06/81 1040-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: A Correction

   The fact that Jupiter gives off more energy than it receives from
the sun was known well before Voyager.  I first remember coming across
this fact sometime in high school, circa 1970.  The energy level is
still not enough to melt ice, so there is little possibility of
getting a Jupiter tan.

------------------------------

Date: 7 August 1981 03:00 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Consistency in Known Space

I really don't understand the problem here.  How consistent are any
set of histories in the "real world"?  Compare any random British and
German history of WW II, for example.  Niven has done a better job of
keeping the stories of Known Space straight than local historians have
on relatively recent events.  Is a seeming "slip" really a slip, or
just a different view from within the Universe?

                        Paul


[Paul is referring to a recent criticism, in a spoiler section, of
Niven's "Down in Flames" story idea.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 6 August 1981 03:00 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Video resolution

Seems like there are enough variables that the only way to really
compare is to look at a conventional 35mm film side by side with the
video.

One point, though:  I don't know how hi-res video compares with NEW
film, but it has got to be better than the faded, scratched, and
spliced theater print of Dragonslayer I recently saw.  I have seen
better image quality on home TV's.  The advantage that theater video
would have is the the "prints" would not deteriorate with repeated
showings.

To try to answer some of the other questions:

A good TV studio can encode about 325, maybe 350, lines of horizontal
resolution.  Most receivers use a simplistic method of separating out
the color information that only gets out about 250 to 275.  Newer sets
using a comb filter will get about 300 lines.

The color dot structure on the tube has a cell size of about .6 mm.
On a 19 inch tube, this gets you about 300 lines resolution.  There
is, of course, more *potentially* possible on larger screens.

Most home video recorders I have seen measured have come out at about
250 lines at standard speed.  Less at the slower speeds.

All of these numbers have been pulled from memory of various test
reports.  They should be in the right range.

                                Paul

------------------------------

Date: 6 August 1981 1243-EDT (Thursday)
From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30)
Subject: artificial diamonds

Artificial diamonds tend to be small and have lots of flaws.  This
works to their advantage for use as abrasives.  An unflawed diamond
will wear down and become dull.  A flawed diamond will chip, exposing
a new sharp edge.
                David Smith

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 09:17 PDT
From: Swenson at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Diamonds

Concerning recent comments about industrial diamonds:  there was an
article (or two) about diamonds, both gem and industrial, including
man-made industrial ones, in National Geographic sometime in the last
few years.  I have neither the magazine nor the index here, so I can't
look it up.  It seemed to me that the article covered the subject
well.

------------------------------

Date: 7 August 1981 00:03-EDT
From: Kevin J. Burnett <KJB at MIT-AI>
Subject: Fast Forward

I also have seen the show Fast Forward, and have enjoyed it alot..
One that I saw that I thought was good was one about computers that
would be accessed through your home television set.  They mentioned
one that I thought was particularly good, called DATAPAC, the Canadian
computer network..  It displayed good hi-res graphics among other
interesting features.
     - Kevin Burnett

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 1739-EDT
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: Steve Lionel at STAR
Subject: The Vast Wasteland

Three items about television, sort of, all unrelated except for the
network they pertain to...

ABC's recent promos for the "National Sports Festival" have in the
background some very familiar music.  What are they using as the theme
for this show?  The main theme of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"!

ABC is hyping a new show (or something) that they are calling "The
Krypton Factor".  The very short ads alternate a hurtling fireball
with some shots of people running in slow motion, ala the "$6M Man".
It appears to suggest a vaguely SF theme.  Anyone know more about
this?

More music...  The theme song from ABC's "Greatest American Hero",
sung by Joey Scarbury, has hit the top of the charts.  Strange for a
show that was only on for six weeks or so.  However, as I related some
time ago, "Hero" is a delight, and it apparently captured the interest
of quite a few viewers, which caused it to attain the highest rating
ever for a third-season replacement.  Needless to say, it will be back
in the fall, Wednesday nights at 8PM.  Watch for it.

Last Sunday's (2-AUG) "Family Weekly", a Sunday newspaper supplement,
has a cover story about Harrison Ford.  Among other things, he is said
to be working on a new movie called "Edge Runner", a detective story
set in the year 2000, which is due to be released early next year.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 81 12:21-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Star Trek guide

Geez, I wish it could have contained intersting tidbits such as Ted
Sturgeon writing Amok Time and Harlan writing 'City on the Edge...',
or "The Menagerie" winning a Hugo.  Also, from your ratings, it's
clear that you're a member of the humor-Trekkies.  For example, I
thought the serious "Balance of Terror" was easily as good as either
of your 5-star episodes.  A tidbit:  it was based on the excellent
movie "The Enemy Below" with Robert Mitchum taking Kirk's place as the
commander of a navy vessel against a German U-boat (hence the cloaking
device).  The endings are different however.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 15:58 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Star Trek guide

Sure, there are all sorts of little tidbits that could be included,
but how to decide which ones?  I think that Lauren got carried away
with such stuff in the Outer Limits and Twilight Zone guides, noting
minor technical flubs and other series in which the guest stars later
appeared.  At the time the Trek guide was compiled, the main use was
to know (a) when a given show was coming up (since they were played in
sequence on the syndicated station), (b) whether a given show was
worth watching, and (c) what title matched a given plot, or vice
versa.

As for the ratings, granted our Crew was humor-biased, but I firmly
believe it is easier to produce good quality humor than it is to
produce quality drama.  Our ratings were based on entertainment value,
and so reflect this difference.  The best drama Star Trek ever did (in
our opinion) was City on the Edge of Forever, which is marred by a
serious flaw in the plot, but which was good enough aside from that
that it still rated 4 1/2 stars.  (SPOILER WARNING:  People not
familiar with this episode may wish to ignore the rest of this
paragraph.)  When Kirk and Spock are trying to figure out what McCoy
changed, they look at the record Spock made of the scenes shown in the
portal.  Part of those scenes include the Edith's death, which they
shouldn't have been able to record since they never got to see Earth's
history in its unmodified state.  I seem to recall there was also
another, less important flaw, but it escapes me now.

To take your particular example, which it's clear you found more
entertaining than did any of us, Balance of Terror is not a bad show,
but there's nothing all that special about it, and it drags in places.
Also, some of the plot elements are slightly flawed scientifically.
We knew it was based on "The Enemy Below", but we didn't think it made
the show any better, nor did we think it worth noting in the
concordance; if anything, it might well have violated our policy of
avoiding spoilers in the plot summaries.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 15:49 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #26

Re: who owns what.

"Everybody's Business - an Irreverent Guide to Corporate America" by
(?) is a good book for finding out these things.  It contains who owns
what and how much for all the largest public corporations in the
country.  It has been out for a while, and probably would not confirm
your suspicion about MGM and UA.  Still, it has quite a bit of
interesting data on American companies.

        --      Larry           --

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 16:51 PDT
From: Swenson at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Bible and the Ark

A few comments about Bible passages and the Ark:
1.  Source of gold: Exodus 12:35,36
2.  Eating the gold: Exodus 32:19,20
3.  Time on the mountain:  Exodus 24:18
4.  Glory of God filling the temple: 2 Chronicles 5:13,14
For a Christian:
5.  Scriptures cannot err: John 10:31-35 (ref Psalm 82:6)
6.  Access to God.  The Ark was in the Most Holy Place (2 Chronicles
5:1-9), which was set apart from the Holy Place by a curtain (veil) (2
Chronicles 3:1-14), and the High Priest went in once a year to obtain
forgiveness of sin.  When Christ died, the curtain (veil) which set
off the Most Holy Place was torn in two from the top to the bottom,
indicating that all could now have access to God, not just the High
Priest.  (Mat 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:44).  (Note that when Christ
died, the Ark was not there, it had been lost in the Babylonian
invasion, but the temple had a place for it.  The bible does not say
if the golden statues were there after Herod's rebuilding of the
temple into one of the tourist attractions of the world.)

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/07/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It describes events
of the recent box-office hit movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers
who have not seen this movie may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 17:43:13-EDT
From: deryl at CCA-UNIX (Deryl Humphrey)
Subject: SPOILER RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK

        I saw Raiders of the Lost Ark for the third time the other
night.  I noticed something I don't think anyone has yet mentioned.
The scene of the Pan American sea plane as Indiana is leaving the
States.  We first see the plane in an overall shot as the props are
being started.  Two women, who are carrying on a conversation, walk
out of the plane and then under the wings.  We then cut to a shot from
behind the wings.  In this shot the props are not moving yet the two
women are still under the wings talking to each other.
        As far as the Rats on the Bantu Wind are concerned they did
move after they had their little scene.  So I conclude that that they
are merely paying homage to one of GOD's works.
        The sub ride did seem a little unreal to me also.  However the
ride was reasonably short.  The red line started not too far from the
edge of Crete and moved to a small island nearer to Greece.  What was
unreal to me was that there were no lookouts posted on the tower.
While the action inside the sub almost looks like they might be
preparing to submerge, there is no great evidence to prove one way or
another.  I am willing to shrug off this whole scene as the plot
doesn't lose much without it.  I also feel that if I only can find one
major piece of "Artistic License" in a film it is pretty tight and
deserves seeing again.
        The last point is the question of the fly.  If you look
closely at Indiana holding the bazooka you will notice a number of
flies on his jacket.  My theory states that Belloq did end up with the
fly in his mouth but the next frame, where he spits out the fly, is
cut out.  But if you don't like that answer, then the answer might be
that ??? is a great actor and ate the fly, as the nasty Belloq might
have.  More likely, however, he just did not notice the fly at all
since the set must have been plagued with them.  One of the many joys
of shooting on location.
                                        -deryl@cca-unix

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-AUG  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #33
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 AUG 1981 1459-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #33
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 8 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:
                      SF Books - Down in Flames,
                 SF TV - Krypton Factor & Star Trek,
                        SF Topics - Diamonds,
    SF Movies - American Werewolf & Rocky Horror & Blade Runner &
          The Real Ark & Why RotLA? & Actors have bugs too,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1981 1901-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan)
Subject: Down in Flames

     I don't know why anyone is arguing [in recent spoilers -- Mike]
about the consistency of `Down in Flames' with the other works of
Known Space.  Niven says right in the introduction that most of it was
written in 1968 and that some of the premises have been lost in the
intervening time.

                                -Doug Alan

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1981 0908-EDT
From: arthur <G.Blic at MIT-EECS>
Subject: The Krypton Factor

        "The Krypton Factor" is hyped to be an `sophisticated type of
        game show measuring the physical and mental prowess of four
        contestants.  Hosted by Dick Clark.'  It will be on Friday,
        August 7, at 8:30 pm (EDT) on most of the ABC stations.
        Sounds like the producers are trying to hook science fiction
        fans onto game shows, but things sound pretty fishy to me...

        imbube in the tube...                   --- arthur

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1981 11:35:11-PDT
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: Star Trek episode guide.

Scientific accuracy in Star Trek???  Wow, I wish I had seen it.  I
must have been in the kitchen getting a snack when it flashed by...

Perhaps you mean psuedo-scientific post-rationalization?
---
Jef
------------------------------

Date: 6-Aug-1981 22:41
Sender: Young at DEC-Marlboro
From: MARIAH::GARDNER
Subject: Artificial Diamonds

Several years ago (I'll guess about five) there was an article in
Scientific American on presses to produce monstrous pressures.  Since
one of the main uses of such presses is research and production of
artificial diamonds, the article necessarily included much information
on the subject.  I believe that everything below is stuff I've
remembered from that article, but can't swear to it (after all, I only
moved a year and a half ago, so everything's still in boxes, so I
couldn't locate the issue in question).

Basically, artificial diamonds are the same as naturally occurring
diamonds.  Both are carbon with a particular crystal structure.
Colored diamonds might be harder to produce artificially, but white
(clear?) diamonds are pure carbon and "relatively" straightforward.

"Relatively" is indeed taken with a grain of salt.  Making diamonds
needs three things:  heat, pressure, and time.  Nature is notoriously
more patient than Homo Sapiens.  Natural diamonds are produced over a
long period of time (hundreds or thousands of years, if I remember
correctly).  Artificial diamonds are made in a shorter time by using
higher pressures.  Even then, I think making a batch of diamonds
requires weeks or months (don't quote me on this).  And the pressures
required are at the limits of available technology.  Remember that
diamonds are the hardest thing we know of.  Harder than the metals we
have to build presses out of.  Under these pressures the metals tend
to flow like butter.  (Maybe if we could build a press out of large
diamonds we could make diamonds easier?)  Thus weird schemes to
amplify pressures (this subject was the technical "meat" of the
Scientic American article).

Anyway, the end result of this is that artificial diamonds are
incredibly expensive -- expensive equipment for long periods of time.
Also, the volume of each batch is small -- thus problems making gem
grade diamonds which want to be rather large.  (Presumably it's
unreasonable to expect a batch to end up as a single diamond).  And
even if they were cost competitive, they would end up being treated
like cultured pearls (i.e., relatively valueless due to lack of
natural scarcity and thus no snob appeal).

However, artificial diamonds can and do compete in one form -- diamond
dust (used for diamond tipped saws, drill bits, etc.).  This is both
the most expensive form of industrial diamonds and the easiest to
produce artificially.  Thus it is cost competitive.

And yes, DeBeers sets the price of gem grade diamonds to whatever they
choose.  Or at least that's what occasional articles in the Wall
Street Journal claim.

                Ed Gardner

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 17:35:26-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxg!mhtsa!research!alice!nazgul at Berkeley
Subject: Alien diamond rings

I cannot off hand remember the title, but there was a short story
written about a landing on some planet where all the natives wore
large nose rings.  As the plot thickens one discovers that actually it
is the nose rings that are wearing the natives.  Story ends with our
heros returning to earth wearing some rather supicious looking
bracelets (nose rings weren't in fashion at the time).  Anyone
remember the title or author?
   Concerning the impact of such a discovery however, I would guess
that the going to get the diamonds would drop the price to an extent
where going there wouldn't be profitable (unless they would get good
values as novelties), besides which, there are better things to mine
in space than diamonds.

                                -Kee Hinckley

------------------------------

Date: 7-Aug-81 10:53:42 PDT (Friday)
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "American Werewolf" - save your money

Last night I saw a prerelease screening of John Landis' new film, "An
American Werewolf in London", starring a couple of happy-go-lucky
American unknowns, plus Jenny Agutter.

I can't believe that the creator of "Schlock" and "Animal House" has
written and directed such a thoroughly uninteresting film.  It's
supposed to be a comedy, but it only has three or four (too-oft
repeated) jokes, and its attempts at gallows humor fall completely
flat due to the total absence of any moral perspective, or indeed any
reason whatever for giving a damn about the self-involved main
characters.  The fx are good, but ripped off from "The Howling".  The
screenplay is a 90-minute padding out of a three-sentence idea, and
Landis seems to have lost interest completely after about the first
ten minutes of the film.

Just another in the never-ending series "Fine Talent Gone to Seed",
or, "If You Can't Think of a Plot, Rip Off a Genre", or, "If That
Doesn't Work, Throw Some FX at Them", which is the big story in
Hollywood these days.

--Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 17:29:04-PDT
From: ihnss!mhtsa!research!alice!nazgul at Berkeley
Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show

   I have most all of the script to the movie on tape (some minor
portion towards the end never got transcribed).  If anyone would like
some or all of it (the whole script runs about 30 to 40 lineprinted
pages as I remember), let me know (alice!nazgul), and perhaps I can
mail it to them.  I'm new to netnews, so if there is a better way of
transferring such, please let me know.
   Incidentally, (to mike@brl) why do you want the script and steps?

                                       -Kee Hinckley

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 2248-EDT
From: John Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Here's the Time Warp

TIME WARP

RIFF RAFF:
It's astounding--Time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll
But listen closely--not for very much longer
I've got to keep control.
I remember doing the time warp
Drinking those moments when
The Blackness would hit me--The void would be calling

ALL:
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again

CHORUS, NARRATOR:
It's just a jump to the left

ALL:
And then a step to the right

NARRATOR:
With your hands on your hips

ALL:
You bring your knees in tight

TRIO:
But it's the pelvic thrust
That starts to drive you insane

ALL:
Let's do the time warp again
Let's do the time warp again

MAGENTA:
It's so dreamy--oh Fantasy Free Me
So you can't see me--no not at all
In another dimension--with voyeuristic intention
Well secluded--I'll see all
With a bit of a mind flip--you're there in the time slip
Nothing can ever be the same
You're spaced out on sensation
Like you're under sedation

all:
let's do the time warp again
let's do the time warp again

columbia:
well, i was walking down the street
just having a think
when a snake of a guy gave me an evil wink
well it shook me up, it took me by surprise
he had a pickup truck and the devil's eyes
oh--he stared at me and i felt a change
time meant nothing--never would again

all:
let's do the time warp again
let's do the time warp again

chorus repeat

all:
let's do the time warp again
let's do the time warp again

chorus repeat

the following handout was passed out when i saw the rocky horror show
on stage at the comedy theatre in london:

let's do the time warp basic steps

1 (it's just a) jump to the left, with hands up

2 a step to the right (time-warper annette funicello suggests
                                a very wide step.)
3* (with your hands on your hips)
   you bring your knees in tight

4 (then) the pelvic thrust (if repeated five times, it nearly
                            drives you insa-a-ane)

5 hipswivel (if not driven insa-a-ane by step four)
6 let's do the time warp again!!

* those with limb disabilities may find it necessary
  to alter or delete this action, but no excuses for
  alterations to steps four and five.

------------------------------

date: 7 aug 1981 1455-pdt (friday)
from: jeff at ucla-ats (jeff schaffer)
subject: blade runner

harrison ford will be starring in "blade runner", not "edge runner".
i believe the story is about a detective (ford) who tracks down
clones, but don't hold me to that.  the picture is being done by alan
Ladd Productions and the director is Ridley Scott (the same people who
brought you "Alien").  I have seen the sets for the film and they are
quite impressive.
Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 7 August 1981 08:56-EDT
From: Andrew Tannenbaum <TRB at MIT-MC>
Subject: Real Live Raiders

This week I saw a short story off the AP newswire that someone in the
middle east claims to have recently actually found the lost ark.  I
didn't clip it, having expected someone else to do so.  Has anyone
more info on that?
        Andy Tannenbaum
        Bell Labs Whippany

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 19:49:13-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark & SF-lovers

The question isn't whether or not RotLA is SF; the question is why it
has so dominated these "pages" of late.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 16:31:52-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Flies and Actors

In defense of actors (having been born in the proverbial theatrical
trunk) it is not uncommon to have bizarre things happen on the stage
which must be negotiated without the audience catching on.  Insects
are one of these, particularly in outdoor drama.  I was, myself, once
in an outdoor production of Wilder's "our town," trying to be dead
while being bitten by mosquitos and having May Flies buzzing inside my
ears.  It comes with the territory and you are trained to deal with
it.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/08/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
events in "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who have not seen this
movie may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 16:33:32-PDT
From: decvax!duke!chico!esquire!psl at Berkeley

past cons -     I've never been to any of the cons, nor do I intend to
                in the future, (but I'm considering having gone to
                some past ones).
(Spoiler)
RotLA swordsman/gun -   To the person who was worried that Indy's gun
                        appeared out of thin air in response to the
                        swordsman:  Not true!  The gun is prominently
                        displayed when I.J. is packing to leave on the
                        Ark hunt; I would not be surprised to learn
                        that the presence of the gun in that scene was
                        arranged after the swordsman was filmed.  In
                        any case my response to the shooting was "Oh
                        yeah!  \That's/ what the gun was for!"
                        Wonderful!
Peter Langston

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1981 17:30:47-PDT
From: ihnss!mhtsa!research!alice!wolit at Berkeley
re: RotLA Swordsman scene

The comment in the lastest SFLD about the 'surprise' of Jones' pulling
out his gun merits some re-comment.  First off, it is not the first
time we see him with a sidearm -- remember when he tosses his revolver
into his suitcase while packing for the trip.  However, I remember
that one as being rather small -- certainly not the cannon he used to
blow away the swordsman.

Despite the byline that was attached to my comment on the sub trip,
(and may be on this one), I am not at Berkeley, but at BTL Murray
Hill.  Damned if I know where this stupid system got that idea.


[Berkeley was the first ARPAnet site in the path your message took to
get to SF-Lovers@MIT-AI.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 16:35:05-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark & submarines

Don Woods' first speculation is entirely correct for WW II-vintage
submarines.  Such a sub cannot use its Diesel engines underwater
unless it is using a snorkel to bring in enough oxygen for the engine;
usually, it would be running on storage batteries -- which have to be
recharged by the Diesel engine moderately often.  Consequently, unless
stealth is of importance, submarines tended to stay on the surface.
(That's also why nuclear power is so much more valuable for submarines
than for surface ships -- it lets them stay under a LONG time.  But
I'll save further discourses on that for arms-d.)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1981 10:28:54 EDT (Thursday)
From: James J. Dempsey <jdempsey at BBN-NU>
Subject: Why the sub didn't submerge
Back in world war II, they didn't have nuclear submarines.  As a
result, submarines had two types of propulsion:  diesel and electric.

They ran on diesel most of the time because the electric motors
required batteries which would only work for (I think) around 20
hours.  In order to use the diesel engines, they would have to stay on
the surface because of intake and exhaust.  They would only submerge
to attack or escape and then they would surface as soon as possible to
recharge their batteries.  Thus, a submarine on the surface was the
rule rather than the exception during WWII.

I suspect that since the sub in RotLA didn't come upon any foreign
vessels it had no reason to submerge during its trip to the base.

                --Jim--

Reply to JJD@MIT-MC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #34
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 AUG 1981 1112-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #34
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sun, 9 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - "Distant Stars" & "Pirx the Pilot" &
          "Winners" & Thomas N. Scortia & Nebula Winners 13,
               SF TV - Star Trek era & "Fast Forward",
       SF Movies - "Blade Runner" & Raiders in SFL & Real Ark,
                         Spoiler - Star Wars
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 0057-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Budrys reviews

    SCIENCE FICTION column
    By Algis Budrys
    (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    Samuel R.  Delany's "Distant Stars" (Bantam, $8.95 trade
paperback), is a copiously illustrated two-headed book.
    One head is Delany's.  He's an extremely bright individual who has
been highly significant in this field since the late 1960s.  He is a
multiple award winner, and enjoys a great reputation.  He has also
always been a very conscious writer, producing work that proceeds
simultaneously on a number of levels.
    His stages are littered with burning cities, crumbled empires, and
people spectacularly dead.  Under all that, however, lie the tragic
bases for that wholesale devastation, worked out in the most careful
intertwinings of hubris and nemesis.  Aeschylus would recognize Delany
for a shipmate.
    The thing is, however, that the best way lately to approach Delany
is to be as conscious as he is of storytelling subtleties, which, when
all is said and done, are purely technical.  "Distant Stars" is an
omnibus containing his 1966 novel, "Empire Star," and a number of his
best-known short stories over the years.  The newer they are, the less
punch they have, and the more they reward formal structuralist
criticism.  The most recent - the hitherto unpublished "Omegahelm,"
and "Ruins," a thorough rewrite of a story semiprofessionally
published in 1968 - are tour-de-force demonstrations of how to build
up story events on almost no central core at all.
    The other head here is Byron Preiss, veteran contract packager of
illustrated books, who has brought eight well-chosen artists to
decorating the pages with some of the most interesting commercial
artwork of the year.  But the effect of the cover painting is to
suggest something on the level of "Star Wars," while the plenitude of
art suggests the comic book.  The total effect is to direct the reader
to the events of the text, while Delany steadfastly works farther and
farther below them.
    Preiss, give him credit, has done better than he ever has before.
But the book, its content evolved up through all the stages of
Delany's growth, tugs in too many directions ever to become unified.
The harder Preiss works to do Delany justice, the more Delany slips
away from him, and the more the two of them inadvertently twist the
book away from the readers each attracts.
    It's definitely summer anthology time.  The only two major novels
newly on the stands right now are Ballantine's $2.50 reprint of "The
Space Merchants," the modern satirical classic by Frederik Pohl and
the late C.M. Kornbluth, and the PocketTimescape $2.50 edition of
Jules Verne's "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea."  Billed as a new
translation (actually it's from 1966) by Walter James Miller, the
latter properly ought to supersede the old "standard" translations,
which are scamped, and are abridged.  But Miller clings to French
locutions:  "I mounted the stairs," "I regained the platform."  And,
like all the others, he fails to note that Verne's original title
referred to Seas in the plural.
    Among the anthologies, here are the ones worth looking at:
    "Tales of Pirx the Pilot," by Stanislaw Lem (AvonBard, $2.95).
Lem is the enigmatic contemporary Pole whose agent claims he ranks
with Verne.  On the surface, these stories mostly recall back-page
material in a 1940 American SF magazine.  But Lem's novels, for all
they sometimes seem more enigma than substance, do go deeper than
that.  So for students of SF as a world literature, this collection is
obligatory.
    "Winners," by Poul Anderson (PinnacleTor, $2.75) collects five
Hugo Award-winning novellas by SF's best writer of literate adventure
science fiction and fantasy.
    "The Best of Thomas N. Scortia," edited by George Zebrowski
(Doubleday, $11.95), collects the early SF work of the writer who,
with Frank M. Robinson, went on to write successful disaster novels
like "The Gold Crew," "The Prometheus Project" and half the basis for
Hollywood's "The Towering Inferno."  Scortia 25 years ago was an often
lyrical, sometimes ingeniously facetious SFnist.
    "Nebula Winners Thirteen," edited by Samuel R. Delany (Bantam,
$2.50) reprints six outstanding 1977 stories by Harlan Ellison, John
Varley, Raccoona Sheldon (who is sometimes Alice Sheldon and used to
be James Tiptree Jr.), Edward Bryant, Spider and Jeanne Robinson, and
Vonda N. McIntyre.  Every one of these very able writers was in top
form in these pieces.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1981 12:29:19 EDT (Friday)
From: Andrew Malis <malis at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Star Trek date

Does anyone know in what century Star Trek takes place?  I think it's
the 22nd or the 23rd, but I'm not sure.

Thanks,
Andy

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1981 2315-EDT
From: Paul Dickson
Reply-to: "Dickson at ZIP in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Fast Forward
I can't reccommend "Fast Forward" for a Computer Science department,
although at the high-school level it might be ok, or for a freshman
survey course.

Problem #1:  The series was done several years ago, and quite a bit of
        the stuff described in experimental terms is by now either in
        full production, or dead.  So it gives a misleading view of
        the current state of the art.

Problem #2:  The production is heavy on "ain't we clever to use
        technology this way" special effects.  For example, when an
        announcer makes an introductory comment, we are shown an
        oscilloscope trace of his voice.  That might have been ok when
        "The Outer Limits" used it - now it is just corny.  Various
        pointless video effects are used to such an excess that they
        are distracting, and/or painful to watch.

        You can tell the people who made this series were real
        videofreaks, both from the overuse of effects and the
        editorial comments (like video technology being the most
        advanced technology in the world).

Problem #3:  The computer demos (ARPAnet, the intelligent office
        computer) are pretty obviously faked up programs that are not
        really used in a production environment, although that is the
        impression that is given.  This also gives a misleading view
        of the state of the art, in that it makes it look like AI is
        farther along than it really is.  (Sort of like "Eliza" does.)

A much better tape to get would be "Goodbye Gutenberg".  This is a
single 90 minute program about how the publishing and communication
industries are being changed by technology.  Telepublishing (like
SF-Lovers is an example of) is described in some detail.  The whole
production is much more professionaly done than FF.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1981 1433-PDT
From: g.eldre at SU-SCORE (Tim Eldredge)
Subject: Blade Runner

I saw the news in SF-Lovers that Harrison Ford was going to star in a
film titled "Blade Runner".  I seem to remember a novel by Alan Nourse
of the same title.  Is the movie taken from the novel?  If so it
certainly is not about a detective.  If it isn't from the novel, then
there is certainly infringment by one party or the other for reusing a
title.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1981 17:27:10 EDT (Saturday)
From: Ward Harriman <harriman at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: sf-living and RotLA

About Raiders of the Lost Ark in SFLD.  Well, last time I looked this
mailing list discussed both Fantasy and Science Fiction.  I think
RotLA falls into the fantasy category.  Anyway, if it's of interest to
enough people, shouldn't it be here?

ward

------------------------------

Date: 08 Aug 1981 1809-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: real (fake) Ark found

The story referred to in the recent SFL digest about someone finding
the REAL Ark of the Covenant is actually about someone claiming to
have found an ancient replica thereof:

    DURHAM, N.C. (AP) - The ruins of an ancient synagogue in the
desert of Galilee have yielded a portion of an ark of the covenant -
one that is supposedly a copy of the long-lost original, it was
announced Saturday.
    A husband and wife team from Duke University and a University of
South Florida professor claimed the discovery, which they said was the
first such find in the ruins of ancient Palestine.
    "Even though only the uppermost portion survives, this is the
first . . .  that has been recovered from ancient remains," said Dr.
Eric Meyers in an announcement made jointly by Duke and the American
Schools of Oriental Research in Cambridge, Mass.
    The portion of the ark found at the site of Nabratein in upper
Galilee is made of white limestone and weighs more than 1,000 pounds.
The designs on the ark show two rampant lions standing astride a
gabled roof and a scallop shell with a place for the ever-burning
light of Jewish and Christian tradition.
    The original ark was described as an ornate gold-plated chest.
Jewish tradition says it housed the stone tablets inscribed with the
Ten Commandments, which Moses brought down from Mount Sinai.
    Don Seaver, a spokesman at Duke, said archaeologists believe
ancient arks copied the design of the original.
    The Israelites often took the ark into battle, and great power was
attributed to it.  A current movie - "Raiders of the Lost Ark" - is
about a search for the original ark.
    In the centuries after the original ark disappeared, the copies
were kept in synagogues and usually held the Pentateuch or Torah, the
first five books of the Old Testament.
    Meyers, a professor of religion at Duke, was director of the
archaelogical project that discovered the ark several weeks ago.
    His wife, Dr. Carol Meyers, assistant professor of religion at
Duke, and Dr. James F. Strange, dean of the College of Arts and
Letters at the University of South Florida, were associate directors
of the project.
    "The find is of special importance because a similar depiction was
found on a black ceramic bowl of the sixth century in our 1980
excavation in Nabratein," Meyers said.
    "The new discovery was found buried in the prayer platform of a
later structure after an earlier synagogue had been badly damaged in
an earthquake in A.D. 306.  The placement of the ark shows how much
succeeding generations venerated it."
    Meyers said a third synagogue, of broadhouse design, was found
beneath the other two temple ruins.
    "The building represents the earliest broadhouse synagogue ever
discovered in ancient Palestine and dates to the period just after the
Bar Kokhba Wars with Rome in A.D. 135, making it also the earliest
Galilean synagogue recovered to date," Meyers said.
    Meyers said besides its functional purpose of preserving the
books, the ark symbolically represented the place of divine presence.
The arks were usually kept behind a curtain in the temples and
exhibited to the people once a year on Yom Kippur or the Day of
Atonement.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/09/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It speculates about
"Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back".  Readers who have not seen
one or the other of these movies may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 19:51:13-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "bch at UNC in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
In real life: Byron Howes at UNC - Chapel Hill
Subject: Star Wars Speculations (spoiler)

Now that TESB (The Empire Stikes Back) is in re-release it seems
opportune to discuss comments and speculations about the SW (Star
Wars') universe.  According to a number of sources the SW IV-VI takes
place after an event or series of events known as the "Clone wars"
whose nature is, as yet, undisclosed.  The concept, however, leads one
to a number of speculations which are intriguing:

[Enter Flame Mode]

(1) The Emperor in TESB, despite having Clive Reville's voice, bore an
uncanny resemblance to Obi-Wan Kenobe (this has been observed before
in this forum.)  Is it possible that they are clones?

(2) Was the cloning procedure an electronic rather than biological
process in which an entity was divided into two; one ostensibly good,
one ostensibly evil?  (a'la the Star Trek episode about a transporter
malfunction.)

(3) Is it then possible that Darth Vader is the clone of Luke's Father
(or vice-versa) thus making it possible for Luke's father to have been
killed, yet live (after a fashion.)

(4) It has been implied that affinity for The Force is an inherited
trait (if in fact Leia is Luke's Sister, or the daughter of Luke's
father's clone.)  If so, since Han Solo has shown more than a little
affinity for the Force (being at the right place at the right time,
generally superior piloting ability through asteroid fields.)  Is Han
related, or perhaps the son of Obi-Wan ... or the Emperor?

(5) If the cloning process were biological, clones then not
necessarily being of the same age, is it possible that Luke is Vader's
clone ...etc....etc...etc...

[Exit Flame Mode]

In all seriousness, I am surprised I have not seen this discussed in
the general set of speculations about the interrelationships among the
Star Wars characters.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #35
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 AUG 1981 0806-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #35
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 10 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
                   SF Books - Wave Without a Shore,
          SF Movies - Spielberg on Ed TV & Raiders review &
                LucasFilms at SIGGRAPH & Blade Runner,
       SF TV - Trek guide, SF Topics - Raiders and What is SF?,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 1710-PDT
From: John Redford <ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE>
Subject: "Wave Without a Shore" by C. J. Cherryh

In the city of Kierkegaard on the continent Sartre on the planet
Freedom there is a University.  Unsurprisingly, they teach existential
philosophy.  Eg:

Senior Student:  What do you see on the streets of Kierkegaard?
Herrin:  What I wish, sir.
Senior Student:  Are you aware of things you would not wish, Citizen
    Law?
Herrin:  I am aware of everything I wish.
Senior Student:  You're evading the question.
Herrin:  I'm aware of everything that I wish to be aware of.  I do
    not, sir, evade the question.
Senior Student:  That is a correct answer.

Herrin Law becomes a master of this sort of dialectic.  His true
strength, though, is not in philosophy, but art.  His goal is nothing
less than to shape the perceptions of the entire planet, to bring them
all into his Reality.  His main opponent is Waden Jenks, son of the
ruler of the planet.  Waden's father dies under mysterious
circumstances and he takes control.  He challenges Law to try to suck
him into Law's reality by creating a work of art that includes him, in
fact by building a monument to him.  Law accepts, thinking that
through this sculpture his skill will continue to influence people
long after Jenks' power is gone.
   The people of this planet are so locked into this business of
defending their reality that they can condition themselves not to see
certain things.  In particular they have blocked out the fact that the
planet's alien natives walk the streets of Kierkegaard.  The aliens
are living refutations of the idea that each person creates and lives
in their own reality, so rather than drop the idea, they drop the
natives.  Eventually, of course, these solipsists are forced up
against some realities so harsh that they aren't so sure they created
them.
   If you've read the existentialists you might find it all pretty
simplistic.  However, I'm a fan of novels that are hard enough to be
worth rereading and engaging enough to make me want to do so.
Recommended.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 1218-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI
Subject: Spielberg on TV (at least in DC)

Channel 26 (WETA) in Washington DC is broadcasting a two-part
interview with Steven Spielberg on the Dick Cavett Show on Thursday
and Friday (8/13 & 14) at 11pm.  This might also be on other Ed-TV
stations elsewhere.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 0740-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark (Non-Spoiler)

These items appeared in the LIMELIGHT column of the Style section of
the Washington POST, 8/9/81 (p. L3).  I offer them sans comment (in
their entirety).

----

        This is the deal the George Lucas and Steven Spielberg got
from Paramount when the studio decided to finance "Raiders of the Lost
Ark," according to New West magazine.  Read the word million after
every dollar figure:  Spielberg was paid $1.5 to direct and Lucas $4
to produce.  If the film goes $40 in rentals (and it will) Spielberg
gets another 2 and Lucas another 7.2.  If the film goes to $100 in
rentals (and it might) Spielberg will have earned $12.5 and Lucas
$35.8...

        Another example of how critical opinions change overseas.  Tom
Milne in the London Observer on "Raiders of the Lost Ark":
"Disillusion, alas, sets in with the opening sequence ...  pure dross
left over from a yawningly long line of jungle adventures ...  looks
less like a Spielberg film than an uneasy compromise masterminded by
George Lucas whose own conception of movie-making has resulted in
epics as glitteringly efficient and as basically uninteresting as
pinball machines."  Milne is probably not too wild about Christmas,
either.

----

Don

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 (Sunday) 1409-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: SIGGRAPH video and Lucasfilms

 ...just came back from SIGGRAPH yesterday.  The place was *loaded*
with people from Lucasfilms -- around 30 or so, I believe.  I spoke
with a few of them, including one in my session.  The general
information they would "allow out" is that they are currently still
assembling all sorts of hardware and software -- at present, their
main project is an interactive video editor.  Apparently (this is the
as I remember it - ) to edit up a master for later copy-release, you
need to run off around 40 good copies of *everything*, and then edit
it together by hand.  (To account for mistakes, etc.)  This gets
rather expensive, so they plan to edit the entire mess on videotape,
keeping track of all the frame numbers from the originals.  When it
gets as they like it, they will then use all the prerecorded frame
info to run off a single final release master.  (Actually a few, to
account for later editings).
 ...the people I spoke with said the "word from above" is that "George
is interested in digital image reconstruction", but nothing beyond
that.  They refused to go into furthur detail; if it eventually fails,
Lucas does not want that failure publicized.  (Speculation -- since he
is trying to remain on the forefront of filming technology, he does
not want it known that he is being "limited".)
 ...as to hardware they desire -- this information I got from some
friends running a booth for a state-of-the-art raster graphics device.
The people *they* spoke with from Lucasfilms want 512^2 or 1024^2,
synch input, 48-bit deep color selection.  (Current State-otA is
24-bit deep, that is, 16 megacolor.  48 bits is, uh, roughly 2.56E14
color selections, which very nicely fills up the
hue-intensity-saturation cone to a fine resolution.)
  Other films presented varied from good to fantastic.  The NYIT clip
shown was technically excellent, as was the III sampler.  However, we
are still quite some way from completely computer-generated images.
None of the images of "people" looked natural in their locomotion --
all were stiff-jointed.  No one is yet using balance processors in
their movement generation -- it is still all locationally oriented.
Oh well, it still leaves room for my research...
   -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 (Sunday) 1421-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Trek guide, what belongs in SF-Lovers anyway?

I'll handle the second first.

Maybe we should change our name to S&F-LOVERS.  We seem to be getting
involved in both the fiction and production aspects of SF.  Does RotLA
belong here?  Is it about the relative effects of the discovery/search
for an ancient powerful artifact/device upon modern society?  What are
we all interested in -- is Outlands SF?  A simple test - can you
substitute current-day devices for the "special" devices and still
have the same story?  (In effect, does the Science in it affect the
story at all?)  For Outlands, no.  For Star Wars, yes, but the only
thing that remains unalterable is the Force, and maybe the Death Star.
RotLA cannot be changed.  Hence it "is SF".

Trek Guide - I also disagree with many of the ratings.  I don't find
humor to be as necessary to the series as "you" do.  As to the comment
that it is easier to make good-quality humor than good-quality drama,
I couldn't disagree more.  Ask any director/actor/comedy actors.  It
is much easier for a good comedy actor to assume a dramatic role than
vice-versa.
  As to tid-bits in the guide, I also happen to enjoy them.  It gives
the episodes and the series historical perspective, as well as adding
just plain interesting points.  Lauren, would you...

  Next month marks the 15'th anniversary of Star Trek.  Gak, I feel
old.  (This means the series has been in *continuous rerun* for 4
times as long as the original series.)

   -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 21:03:52-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: BLADE RUNNER

   CINEFANTASTIQUE mentioned this in an issue that came out 7-9 months
ago (it's a quarterly and I don't have the volume/issue numbers, which
are all they used for ID---the cover story was David Cronenberg,
director of SCANNERS).  They said that it was an adaptation of Philip
K. Dick's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? in which androids are
slaves of colonials and almost forbidden on Earth; an android on Earth
is almost certainly a rogue to be hunted down by a bounty hunter.  The
specific plot concerns a second-string hunter who is after a group of
six androids after their leader has injured the top hunter; like much
of Dick it's a thoroughly unattractive story with a collection of
equally unattractive subplots.  For those of you who are familiar with
it, CFQ says that the subplot involving robot pets is part of what was
cut from the book to fit it into a movie.
   I don't know exactly what the rules would be on copyright in these
circumstances; certainly if Nourse doesn't squawk the studios will be
home free.  John Varley finds himself in the same pickle; he has done
a treatment and scripting for a movie sequel to his short story "Air
Raid" and apparently the film people think they're going to get away
with calling the film MILLENNIUM---which leaves Varley (who has also
been signed to do the novelization) in a fix vis-a-vis Ben Bova's
final Kinsman novel of the same title (released almost 5 years ago).
I believe someone mentioned a few months ago in SFL that he is
offering a significant prize to anyone who can come up with an
acceptable alternate title.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 1859-PDT
From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL
Subject: Media Notes

 Re "Blade Runner", the Ladd Company movie is based upon a Philip K.
Dick novel, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", not the Alan
Nourse novel, though I believe that the title was purchased from
Nourse.  This is normally done when a major studio uses a title
previously used in book form, though not necessary since a title
cannot be copyrighted and is not protected.

 Re "Looker", this film has to do with commercials in their futuristic
ultimate form and is from Michael Crichton ("Andromeda Strain", "The
Terminal Man") who is also a producer/director ("Coma").

 Re "The Krypton Factor", this is a "game show" (though the producers
will not call it that) and is based on a very popular British tv
series.  It involves a search for the ultimate human being and tests
both mental and physical qualities.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/10/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They tell about
the events of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who have not seen
this movie may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1981 1214-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Indy's gun

Aw, c'mon!  His gun was in plain sight (well the holster was in plain
sight, anyway) on his right side the whole movie - except when he was
in "college professor's" clothes, of course.

Remember Belloq taking his gun in the opening jungle sequence?

-Rich Zellich

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1981 (Friday) 1400-EST
From: DENENBERG
Subject: Raiders queries

Just after the climax of RotLA, Our Heroes (who are tied to a pole)
are released by what seems to be the direct intervention of the Most
High.  What are the implications of that fact?  It would seem that
they have been selected for special treatment, but for what reason?
If, in fact, they would have been killed along with the others had
they been watching the spectacle, then it can't be assumed that they
are the Good Guys whose welfare is assured by none other than None
Other (as Phillip Roth might say).  But if not, WHY are they freed?

Then there is the matter of the events following the movie.  After
all, we have here several people who have more proof of the existence
of a Supreme Being (in the biblical sense) than is granted to most.
What does this say about any of their future activities that are done
in the biblical sense?  Do they have to get married first lest they
risk the wrath of the Deity?  And must they not be rather devoutly
religious hereafter?

                                                         L. D-berg

------------------------------
Date: 9 Aug 1981 (Sunday) 2220-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: Denenberg's "Raiders queries"

A possible answer to Denenberg's question of why the spirit(s) untied
Indiana and Marian:  Just as they kill anyone who sees them, they also
rectify other conflicts with God's will in the immediate vicinity of
the ark--i.e., Indy and Marian had not been loved by their neighbors,
or something of the sort, and so were freed to put things right.  One
can speculate further along these lines--Indy and Marian had sinned
against God, too.  Did the spirits do something about that?  I don't
remember them snooping around right there, but I wasn't looking for it
either.  Perhaps the spirits just figured that Indy and Marian would
be getting married soon enough, per Denenberg's other point.
                                        -- Sam

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #36
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 AUG 1981 0906-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #36
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 11 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - Norton & Wave without a Shore & The Blade Runner,
              SF Movies - Heavy Metal & Some summaries,
          SF Topics - Ark copy & "Media" & Shining planets,
                       SF TV - Krypton Factor,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 18:00-EDT
From: "Patrick J. Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Andre Norton

  Anyone interested in the works of Andre Norton, and would like to
let her know, please mail to me, I'll give you her address, and let
you know the latest about her.
--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 08:57-EDT
From: Oded Anoaf Feingold <OAF at MIT-MC>
Subject: "Wave Without a Shore" by C. J. Cherryh  - your review of ...

What the hell are you doing on this mailing list?  Reasoned,
informative, analytic review of science fiction is NOT where it's at!
Awful puns, personal rivalries, pointless discussion of whether
something is or isn't sf, solipsistic foolishness regarding attending
past cons, namedropping (I met X at Y con), t-shirt discussions, bad
movies with worse reviews, nitpicky analysis of possible
inconsistencies in various works - THAT's where it's at.  You belong
on IMPOSSIBLE-NERDS and LITERATE-ENGINEERS.

Keep your elitist analyses to yourself - I don't like it that people
point out my inability to read (and will use my ability to flame to
cover, as you may have noticed).

Furthermore, I find it a little hard to believe that ANYONE anywhere
will try to implement existentialist philosophy as a way of organizing
society.  It gets a little hard to distribute the food when the
distributors don't feel like believing the truck is kaputt - in fact
that the difference between life and death for recipients of said food
is a minor issue.
        (NOW who am I kidding - the people who operate the MBTA in
        Boston are thoroughly indifferent to their constituency's
        welfare, and if they don't feel like working then the bus aint
        busted - sorry, mister, I take it all back...  Maybe.)
Of course, any SF author can solve that by postulating a food/
clothing/etc. supply as the legacy of some wonderful (now gone)
civilization, but to my way of thinking that dodge has gone stale.  I
sure wish SF authors got back to including the nits-n-grits work of
basing a story (or a philosophical point) on something other than
"They were all so rich they actually had the free time for the
following nonsense."  Ya want a shining counterexample - Ursula le
Guin's "The Dispossessed."  (Okay, so it's old - I'm old too.  And
curmudgeonly.  Speaking of curmudgeons, Heinlein made sure the bread
and butter got there reasonably in a couple of works, like "Stranger
..." and "Revolt in 2100" (or a story therein?  Memory fades).  I like
that kind of anchoring.

Mumble, rant, flame, okay, maybe I'll read the book.  But I won't
finish "Being and Nothingness" first, and I'm still suspicious.

Oded

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 12:16:51-PDT
From: MathStat.jmrubin at Berkeley
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #33

"Blade Runner", assuming it comes from the novel by Alan Nourse, "The
Blade Runner", is about a future society in which medical care has
been banned for all but those who accept sterilization.  Blade runners
are people who are involved, along with some doctors, in the
flourishing underground medical business.  At some point, the
establishment has to go to a doctor who is in the underground, and say
"hey, we know you're in the underground, and we think we've got a bad
epidemic on our hands, and we need you and your blade runners to
supply the necessary medical care to all the people outside the
system."

------------------------------

Date: 9 August 1981 01:10-EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>
Subject: Heavy Metal Movie

Four of us went to see the Heavy Metal Movie.

Go see it.

Well, it won't make much sense to you if you've never picked up the
magazine.

If you have read Heavy Metal on occasion, you will be amazed by how
faithful the film is to the original mood.

The film has the magazine's visual magnificence, wonderfully
gratuitous sex and violence, weird aliens, towering cities, bleak
wastelands, women with very large breasts wearing nothing but green
eyeshadow, funny gags (watch for the illegal alien), and lots of green
blood.  In fact there is lots of green.

The film is set to the same kind of ca. 1970 rock music that
accompanies the magazine.  What?  You didn't hear the rock music when
you read the magazine?  Weren't you *listening*?  Anyway, it fits the
film as well as it does the 'zine.

Unfortunately, the film also inherits the magazine's indifferent
plotting and fragmentary quality.

The fragmentedness wouldn't bother me so much by itself.  The movie is
a sequence of half a dozen vignettes like the different stories in the
magazine, each with its own self-contained something that passes for a
plot.  That's okay.  But the producers felt that it was necessary to
have some connecting theme, so they invented this totally gratuitous
green sphere which wanders around being evil.  I said there was a lot
of green.

There is quite a bit of bothersome sexism, too, also inherited from
the 'zine.  The sex is all pretty manipulative.  The women are often
just objects for the men to protect and fight over.  They give their
bodies to their rescuers in gratitude.

Why can you show fully naked women and maintain an R rating, but if
you glimpse a penis you get an X?  Well, you do glimpse a penis for
about a quarter of a second (while Dan is being transformed to Den)
but the raters may have missed it.  So much for the raters of the lost
dork.

They employed hundreds of animators to make this film.  Go see the
flick, folks.  Just to tell them that they are on the right track.

   ---Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 08:09-EDT
From: Steve Strassmann <STRAZ at MIT-AI>
Subject: Review of \Heavy Metal/

In a nutshell, \Heavy Metal/ is fantastic.  See it.

Those of you who have been moaning over the sacrifice of story for
special effects may be pleasantly surprised at the little twists and
clever comments that bejewel this fantasy.  The movie is the product
of an impressively large team of animators; it concerns a little green
orb (the summation of all that is evil in the universe, no less) and
the various people (well, sentient beings) who come into contact with
it.

Yes, it has a liberal splash of drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll, and this
is definitely NOT for your grandmother.  I fear more cosmopolitan
reviewers might toss this movie off as a crayoned Cheech & Chong
flick, but nothing could be further from the truth.  The action is as
fast as Raiders, the battle between good and evil is as mortally
dangerous and as important as Tolkien's, and of course, the artwork
that fills every frame is awesome, breathtaking, and almost completely
hand-drawn.

I'll see you in the spoiler section...

Steve Strassmann
straz at MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 10:03 PDT
From: Klose.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Blade Runner and other films

"Blade Runner", starring Harrison Ford is currently lensing for a
summer 1982 Warner Bros. release.  The director is Ridley Scott
(Alien).  Special Effects are being done by Douglas Trumball.  The
film is a detective story set around 2000 which permits Harrison to
elaborate on his Bogart persona.  Basically Harrison plays an agent
responsible for hunting down and killing "replicants', illegal clones
(this sounds somewhat similar to an Outer Limits episode about
duplicates).  It is NOT based on the book of the same name by Nourse.
I believe that the rights to use the name were purchased from him.

"Conan, the Barbarian" is scheduled for release this December.  It is
another Dino DeLaurentis production (Flash Gordon, King Kong, etc., ad
nauseum).  This one stars weight lifter Arnold Schwarzenegger, with
cameos by James Earl Jones and Max Von Sydow.  The film is based on
the exploits of the pulp hero.  John Milius directs.

"Dark Crystal" is being produced by Jim Henson (of Muppets fame) and
Gary Kurtz (of Star Wars fame).  This is probably some collaboration
born out of their work together on TESB.  Jim Henson will also star
and there may be other new talents (ala Yoda).  No info on the plot.

"Looker" (mentioned earlier) is based on a screenplay and directed by
Micheal Crichton (Andromeda Strain, Terminal Man).  It has a planned
Fall '81 release.  Film rights have been purchased for "Congo",
Crichton's newest book.  It's about African archeologists and their
discovery of an ancient jungle ruin.  One of the party is conversant
gorilla.  It could be a few years before this one comes out.

Not strictly SF is "Quest for Fire", an attempt to realistically
portray the life of Neanderthal cave dwellers.  This is a large budget
French production scheduded for Christmas release.

"Brainstorm", to be directed by Douglas Trumball and starring
Christopher Walken.  Plot?

Blake Edwards' (Pink Panther, 10, SOB) next comedy will have a space
theme and will be called "Far Out".

The Disney people seem to have really gone on a rampage for SF and
fantasy (Black Hole and Dragonslayer).  Now planned is "Tron",
starring Jeff Bridges.

There is work being done on a sequel to "Rocky Horror Picture Show".
Another sequel which will interest some is "The Further Adventures of
Flesh Gordon".

"Heartbeeps", starring Andy Kaufman as a bumbling robot in love with a
human (I hope they leave the Woody Allen gags alone).  This one should
be released sometime this year.

Two ghost films:  One "Ghost Story" will star Fred Astaire, the late
Melvyn Douglas and John Houseman - release date December 1981.  The
other will be directed for MGM by Tobe Hooper (Texas Chainsaw
Massacre, Salem's Lot) and will be called "Poltergeist".

I've also heard that Kurt Vonnegut's book "Slapstick" is being made
into a film with Jerry Lewis playing the lead!

Director George Romero (Night of the Living Dead, Knightriders) and
writer Stephen King (Carrie, The Shining) are teamed up to do at least
a couple films:  "The Stand", concerning the final war on Earth
between good and evil, "Creepshow", a horror anthology of 4 to 5
stories.

John Carpenter (Halloween, The Fog, Escape From New York) is set to
direct as his next film "The Thing", a remake of the 1950's B film
which featured James Arness as a deadly vegetable from another world.

Another 50's B-movie remake is "Cat People" (who remembers this one?),
directed by Paul Schrader (Hardcore, American Gigolo).  It is going to
be a sensual horror movie starring Malcolm McDowell (Clockwork Orange,
O Lucky Man), John Heard and Natasha Kinski (Tess).  I think there is
a new remake trend developing here (Invasion of the Body Snatchers,
Incredible Shrinking Woman).  Can remakes of "The Amazing Colossel
Man" and "Them" be far behind?

There's also "Alien II", "Superman III" and "The Revenge of the Jedi",
all shrouded in mystery.

All this information comes from my memory as skimmed from articles
that I've read.  Sorry, if there are any mistakes.  Anybody have any
more info?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 1139-EDT
From: KERN at RUTGERS
Subject: A lost ark.

        The ark recently found in the middle east is a 3rd (?) century
ark, with lions on the cover.  The article was pretty specific that
this was not the original Ark of the Covenant.  For more details, see
the first section of the Sunday NY Times, August 2.

-kbk

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 19:33 edt
From: Frankston.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: Re: "Media" Types at WorldCon

*from:  BOB (Bob Frankston)

Have I missed something, does media now mean "TV/Movies"?
------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 11:58:44-PDT
From: decvax!duke!cjp at Berkeley
Re: Ignition of planets

I remember a short story about a ship landing on Pluto.  (No title or
author comes to mind.)  The theory was that Pluto originally formed
with surface layers of elemental hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen.
These elements, in their frozen state, remained unreacted over the
billions of years because of the low temperature and the fact that the
nitrogen layer was between the oxygen and hydrogen layers.  (Side
point:  if thousands of years are millennia, what are millions and
billions of years?)  Anyway, when the ship attempted to "land", its
drive flame melted out a hole through the hydrogen and nitrogen
layers.  Then when the oxygen started to go, it came in contact with
the hot hydrogen and ignited it in a chemical (not fusion!) reaction.
The whole planet proceeded to go up in flames.

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 1221-EDT (Monday)
From: Nigel.Stephens at CMU-10A
Subject: The Krypton Factor

The Krypton Factor has been on English Independent Television for some
years now, and if the new ABC program is a plain copy of this then I
can assure you that it will have nothing to do with SF whatsoever.  In
fact it was a pathetic attempt to 'improve' on the BBC's excellent
Mastermind, I can't imagine why ABC should want to show it (or maybe I
can!).

Nigel Stephens.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/11/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who have not seen this
movie may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 1040-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: Raiders Of The Lost Ark  (Indiana and Marion ...)

I've got it!  They are "the other hope" from Star Wars.  That is why
God released them.

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 20:41-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: RotLA - Indy's Gun - SPOILER
Aw c'mon folks!  Indy blew away at least two guys with that gun in the
bar in Nepal for heaven's sake!  It also seems to be the standard
model good-guy gun with unlimited firing capacity with no need to
reload.  Another point - the gun he threw in his suitcase was
practically a bazooka in its own right... looked like .357 or .45 to
me.

-- Charles

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #37
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 AUG 1981 0741-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #37
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Wed, 12 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:
                     SF Books - Down in Flames &
     Stereo-isomers & A-bomb reference? & Story and lyrics query,
          SF Movies - (The) Blade Runner & Dune & The Thing,
              SF Topics - Neutron bomb & Ark capacitor &
      Naming citations & A message having nothing to do with SF,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1981 04:35:30-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Full-name: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Re: Spoiler on Down in Flames

As I recall (my copy of "Tales of Known Space" seems to have gone
Somewhere), "Borderland of Sol" is considerably later than
"Ringworld", which in turn was mentioned in the on-line version as
having eliminated the justifications for "Down in Flames".

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 15:25:57-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: stereo-isomers

In real life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

I stumbled across another reference to stereo-isomers in SF, in the
story "The External Triangle", by George O. Smith.  The story was
written for "Astounding: John W. Campbell Memorial Anthology", under
the name "Interlude", and also appears in "The Complete Venus
Equilateral".  It concerns problems encountered when using a true
teleportation device that works by the "tunnel diode" principle.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 15:29:30-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Here's the story, what's the REAL plot

In real life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

I was recently rereading George O. Smith's "Complete Venus
Equilateral" (the ULTIMATE in wiring-diagram space opera), and came
across the following lines:
        "Too bad we haven't got some U-235 to use.  I'd like to plate
        up one of his ships with some positive ions of U-235 and then
        change the beam to slow neutrons [from electrons].  That might
        deter him from his life of crime."

This appeared in the story "Recoil" -- which, according to the
acknowledgements, was published in "Astounding Science Fiction" in
November, 1943.  Was this paragraph added in a later edition, or was
this one of those infamous references to atomic bombs that was driving
the FBI crazy?  Anybody out there with a collection of old
"Astoundings"?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1981 09:43:06-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihuxl!jej in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: help!

Any help with the following would be GREATLY appreciated:

1. locating a Ray Bradbury story about two women, one of whom is about
        to go to Mars where her husband has settled.  The climax of
        the story is a "conversation" (such as can be between points
        as far apart as Earth and Mars) between the woman and her
        husband, which is subject to well-placed static.  I think the
        title is "The Settlers", and no, it's not in the Martian
        Chronicles.

2. Does anyone have the full lyrics to "Share and Enjoy," the company
        song of the Complaints Department of the Serious Cybernetics
        Company (or is that Sirius?)?  I missed the NPR broadcasts,
        and the BBC SW transmission wasn't clear enough.  Known
        lyrics:

        (sing one fifth higher than the accompaniment)
        Share and enjoy, share and enjoy,
        Journey through life with a plastic boy
        Or girl by your side, let your [a-z]* be your guide,
        And if it breaks down or starts to annoy,

                ???

        Bring it to us, we won't give a fig;
        We'll tell you (pause) "Go stick your head in a pig."

Thanks....              James Jones (ihuxl!jej)


P. S.  It occurs to me that I've mistaken the story I can't find (I
read it in an eighth-grade English book that I can't find either) for
"The Settlers," which might be in the Martian Chronicles.  The name of
the story may be "The Pioneers"...

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 21:57:55-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihuxl!jej in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Blade-Runner

Yes, there is an Alan Nourse novel called "The Blade Runner," about a
future in which medical care comes at the price of sterilization after
two children.  A "blade runner" is a person dealing in medical
equipment for doctors who illegally treat the unsterilized (by analogy
with "(gun|rum) runner"?), and one of each of those types are main
characters.

This is about the best I can do from hazy memory of reading it some
years back.  Also from memory is that song titles, at least, cannot be
copyrighted.

                                        James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 11:38:19-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Blade Runner

   The film Blade Runner is based on the story "Do Androids Dream of
Electric Sheep", and concerns a future bounty hunter out to retrieve N
renegade androids in a dark world of the future.  Incidentally, the
effects are being handled by Douglas Trumbull's (2001, Close
Encounters) organization, which is another reason for optimistic
anticipation.
   About the Dune film:  Ridley Scott is set to direct after
completing Blade Runner, which is at least some cause for optimism.
   Finally, the film of The Demolished Man is no longer a project of
Brian de Palma.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1981 14:13:34-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihuxl!jej in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Dune revisited

Down one path, he saw himself walking up to an inept director and
saying, "Hello, Dino."  The thought of that path and what lay down it
sickened him....

                                        James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1981 16:57:47-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: The Thing

Hey!  Wasn't "Who Goes There" written by John W. Campbell?  My fear
about Hawks' film is that it is going to be a low-grade cross between
"Alien" and "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."  Why remake an already
classic film?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1981 12:40:09 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Ralph Muha <muha at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Food for Thought

Last night, it occurred to me just why Reagan has decided to build
neutron bombs and stockpile them in the United States.  He has no
intention of using them against the Ruskies.  Instead, they will be
used internally in the event of massive domestic disturbance!  They
would also facilitate urban renewal.  I.e., Neut the Ghettos!  (And
turn them into condominiums.)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 12:00:11-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Ark as a capacitor

In real life:  Byron Howes at UNC - Chapel Hill

If the Ark is a capacitor, it obviously indicates great ohmage to God.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1981 12:02:06-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
In real life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: The Ark as a Capacitor

Frankly, I can't buy it.  The story about some GE engineers, or
whoever, investigating it sounds like just another of many attempts to
explain or otherwise justify Biblical stories.  For example, a story
has been circulating for many years that NASA couldn't make some
orbital calculations work until they factored in some halt in the
Earth's rotation as described in the story of Joshua.  (Aside:  isn't
there some collection of SF stories about how such a thing could have
happened, and what the effects would be?)  Every few years, it shows
up in the papers, usually as some minister citing a paper by a NASA
engineer.  But no one has ever produced a copy of this report, and
NASA of course denies that such a thing ever existed.  (Personally, I
can't even see how such a result COULD exist -- what possible
calculation could depend on that?)  Velikovsky's theories are only
slightly different, the main difference being that we know the author
of them.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1981 04:37:10-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Full-name: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Source citations and the Bible

I agree completely with Hedrick that people should cite their sources
whenever possible.  However, it isn't always easy to do -- you may not
have the appropriate references handy (I keep neither a Bible nor a
science fiction library in my office), or you may not be able to find
the reference.  Or, you could just plain miss it -- some of the people
writing in about Moses, for example, apparently just plain overlooked
some passages in Exodus.

Incidentally, the problems with citations are not unique to these
recent Biblical discussions.  Look at the variant answers you get to
almost any query on this list.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1981 13:39:59 EDT
From: unc!smb (Steven M. Bellovin at UNC CS Dept. Vax)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: metadiscussion

Why do we go so far afield on certain topics, often little-related to
SF?  For example, we have spent several weeks and many thousands of
bytes discussing "Raiders of the Lost Ark", a film with only tenuous
connections to the mainstream of science fiction.  Mind you, I'm not
complaining -- and I certainly haven't refrained from following the
twisty path from SF to RotLA to the Ark to the Bible to Moses -- I'm
just a bit curious.  Any thoughts on the matter?

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/12/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give details
of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Readers who have not seen this movie
may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1981 0719-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: Indy's gun

Very unlikely to be a .357; the cartridge and a special-production
weapon for it were released first in 1935.  S&W made .357's on special
order only, to the customer's specifications, for the first few years,
and they were fancy.  Since this is taking place in 1936 (right?) and
Indy's gun is obviously well-used and he has had extensive familiarity
with it, and it doesn't look new, it would more likely be a model 1917
.45 ACP (using half-moon clips) or something of that vintage.  (Since
the 1917's were surplussed and available very cheap during the 50's,
it's likely that the Hollywood prop suppliers would have a plentiful
supply of them.  Do you see Indy reload anytime during the film?  If
he uses cartridges held together with C-shaped metal clips, in groups
of 3, those are .45 ACP in half-moon clips.  If he uses single
cartridges, it could be the same gun using .45 Auto-Rim, or another.
Would have to get a good close look to tell.)  Also, in 1936, .357 Mag
ammo was just introduced and not available outside the US.  Of course,
any .357 also fires .38 Specials, which are common in the US.  The
lower-powered .38s are more common outside the US, especially in the
'30's...  stuff like .38 S&W or .38 Long Colt...

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1981 (Tuesday) 1542-EST
From: RUBENSTEIN at HARV-10
Subject: The long sub trip in RotLA (spoiler)

Saw RotLA again this weekend, and distinctly heard the sub commander
saying (in German), "Prepare to dive."  This was echoed by a
subordinate and followed by "Periscope depth."

Stew

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1981 20:20:24-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!woods in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Raiders and old sf flicks

   In all this recent discussion of Rotla and the sub trip, all but a
few seem to have forgotten why we go to movies like RotLA in the first
place-- to be entertained and to escape from the real world for a few
hours in a harmless, socially acceptable way.  I thought, like many
people, that a few things in RotLA were stretching things a bit too
far, but who cares?  Sure, it is very unlikely that even if the sub
did stay on the surface Jones could have survived, but so what?  If he
had died there wouldn't have been much of a movie, would there?  I
thought RotLA was a very entertaining movie even if a lot of it was
unrealistic.

  Speaking of unrealistic movies, I saw a movie by John Carpenter, who
was panned recently in sf-lovers.  This is one of his older movies
(circa 1968-69) called \Dark Star/.  This movie is blatantly
unrealistic, featuring such things as an alien being that looked like
a beach ball, talking nuclear bombs, etc.  However, I thought this
movie was very funny and quite entertaining.  Has anyone else seen
this movie?  (I tried to avoid spoilers).

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 1306-EDT
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL Responses and Spoilers

(SF Lovers      Tue 4 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 29)

(Schwartz at CMU-10A) The sub base could not have been on Navarone
because:
        1) Navarone was closer to the Turkish coast;
        2) Navarone was bigger (~100 square miles);
        3) Navarone had a native Greek population;
        4) Navarone had a small range of mountains with snow;
        5) The exiled 'owner' of Navarone in his briefing of the
        agents (see the book) made no reference to any act of God or
        any German occupation previous to the war;
        6) If the Germans had been so completely (and inexplicably)
        trashed there in 1936, wouldn't they be leery of going back?
(The Guns of Navarone or TGoN was 1943.)

(SF Lovers      Wed 5 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 30)

(Dyer-Bennet at KL2137) The argument I was inviting was about religion
as science fiction.

(BUT, as to Indy's meeting ordinary material obstacles with ordinary
material resources and triumphing by stamina and ingenuity, surely
holding his breath that long would be a triumph in stamina!!)

(And what is ordinary about an elaborately booby-trapped temple,
another temple full of snakes(!!), etc?)

(SF Lovers      Thu 6 Aug 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 31)

(POP at USC-ISIF)  How long has the Doctor been on the Net?

(MJL@MIT-MC) Arthur C. Clarke's Sands of Mars turned Phobos into a
(tiny) star to help terraform Mars.


Regards,
Susan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-AUG  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #38
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 AUG 1981 1122-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #38
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Thu, 13 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:
                       SF Fandom - Denvention,
             SF Movies - "Looker" & "TRON" & "Dark Star",
                    SF Topics - Meta-discussion &
                Video-graphics & Resolution resolved?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 81 10:22-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Denvention

The latest blurb from the Denvention folks says that they have
arranged the first back-to-back showing of SW and TESB for the
convention and enough room to accommodate 2000 people for the
showing... since 3500-4500 are estimated to be at the convention, I
imagine the place will be packed like sardines.

Who all is going?  Who is arranging the @ party?

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981 20:17-EDT
From: Alyson L. Abramowitz <ALA at MIT-AI>
Subject: Parties and Denvention

For those of us who prefer to attend future cons rather than past ones
I wonder whether people would be interested in a SF-LOVERS party at
the World Science Fiction Convention (Denvention) upcoming in a few
weeks.  Given the size of the last worlcon SFL party I would assume
that there would be more than enough interested people to have one.
And, as I understand it, both our current temporary moderator, Mike
Peeler, and our permanent moderator, Jim McGrath, expect to attend.

Anyone interested?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 1720-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  from III via Rand  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: SF Movies (Looker & TRON)

"Looker" should be out in October, it was supposed to come out in
early July but too many other FX laden films came out at the same
time.

"TRON" will probably come out late in '82 (they are aiming for summer
but ...), story and direction by Steve Lisburger.  Principal
photography has already wrapped up (stars Cindy Morgan and Bruce
Boxlightner in addition to Jeff Bridges).  Post production is already
rollin' with Disney doing the photographic and optical effects (and
some hand animation), sets and backgrounds will be largely computer
graphic simulations - done by the Synthevision group at MAGI and us
Digital Scene Stimulators at III.

- Craig

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1981 1002-EDT
From: woods at LL-ASG (John Woods)
Subject: Dark Star

Dark Star, one of the greatest SF films ever made, was produced by Dan
O'Bannon and company during college, over a period of 4 years, for a
budget of (I think) $40,000.  It was made as a parody of 2001 (clearly
these weren't "Iron Men in Iron Ships"...), and there are many who
have remarked what a good parody of O'Bannon's later film (Alien) it
is, even though it came out a little bit earlier...

Unrealistic aliens?  So what?  How many "realistic" aliens have YOU
met this week?

Dark Star is a great hack, and CLEARLY warrants seeing by anyone
strange enough to appreciate the humor.

        -John Woods (woods at ll-asg)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 1222-PDT (Wednesday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Dark Star

Would you call "Alice in Wonderland" `unrealistic'?  I hope that's not
the term most people would choose.  Likewise, how can you call "Dark
Star" unrealistic?  It's not supposed to be.  It is a brilliant
comedy/satire, and must needs be judged on that level.  It was made
for something like $100,000 or LESS, and is one of my favorite films
(right up there with "The 5000 Fingers of Dr.T.)

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 10:55:41-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: DARK STAR

    Is not exactly from 1968-69; I first ran across it in 1975-76, and
it was my impression that it was reasonably new then.  The script was
by Dan O'Bannon, who is better known for ALIEN.  The movie is fairly
widely known in SF circles as it is a very clever takeoff on a number
of SF cliches; there have even been filksongs written about it.  It is
one of the outstanding examples of how to do an excellent film on a
trivial budget---the control room is a California college's computer
center, the freight elevator is shot sideways down a corridor---very
entertaining.  (When it was shown at BoskLone (February 1980) there
were several shorts before it including the famous "What's Opera,
Doc?" (with Elmer Fudd as a Viking); at the appropriate point in DARK
STAR the center of the audience started singing "kill da beachball,
kill da beachball" to the tune of "Ride of the Valkyries".)

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981 1928-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Gregg.Podnar at CMU-10A
Subject: Dark Star

The best SF film I've ever seen.  Extreeeemly low budget.  How many
common household items can you identify in the space suits, command
console, models, &c??  I say the best because they used what they had
to the utmost.  The animation was very simplistic due to the cheap
techniques, but they worked within the limitations of the format and
if they could not make it believable, would make it hilarious.  The
sets were cheap or free and the excuses for their appearance were
true-to-life.  I believe it was the character who played \Pinback/ who
was involved in Alien.  I felt, when I saw Alien that a lot of these
high efficiency, real-life techniques had been brought over:  in the
lower decks the walls were mostly panels vacu-formed from a mold with
dirty grease smeared on them.  I'll admit that A.D.Foster's
novelization did fill in on a few of the missing explanations, but
this is not uncommon.  For a SF lover, this film is an absolute
must-see.  The King of the low budget SF flick.
                                                 Gregg  Podnar@CMU-10A

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981  10:10-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Jeff Yoon  <JTY at MIT-XX>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #37

Re the recent ensuement of a meta-discussion, might I possibly discuss
what should, in all fairness, be called a meta-meta-discussion:
<Enter-Nonsense-Mode>
This list purports to discuss SF!!  Though we may have had some recent
disagreements on the exact boundaries of such a topic, there is
clearly a certain limit.  Equally clear, all of us (or at least most)
do exist in this space-time continuum and are therefore not fiction,
certainly not science-fiction.  Therefore, this mailing list, which is
merely a gestalt embodiment of us all, does, too, exist.  Therefore, I
maintain that it is improper for any meta-discussion to form around
the topic of this list, seeing as it is clearly not any form of
fiction.
<Exit-Nonsense-Mode>
                                - Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 11 August 1981 11:07-EDT
From: Neal Feinberg <NEAL at MIT-MC>
Subject: SIGGRAPH video and Lucasfilms

Howdy!
        I am very much interested in finding out about digital image
reconstruction and balance processors.  Is there some material
available on those subjects I could get my hands on?

                                                --Neal

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1981 1806-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  from III via Rand  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: SIGGRAPH - Lucasfilm

I'm glad Steve Platt liked our new III sample reel shown at SIGGRAPH
'81, but disappointed that he thought our animated man did not have
very natural motion.  While "Adam" (coincidentally the same name was
also given to another computer-graphic humanoid shown by the GRAMPS
group) was fully simulated, his motions were taken, frame by frame,
from the motion of a real juggler!  Now it is true that Adam does have
stiff limbs and only bends at the major joints, but aside from bending
the torso he moves pretty much like us humans.

As for Steve's comments that none of the simulated "people" had
flexible bodies - think back to the Swimmer and the Kicker in the NYIT
sample reel, as the Swimmer swims by we clearly see her legs kicking
and her knees smoothly bending.  These animations were done by Becky
Allen, and they look real good.

While they had no pretty movies to show, the group headed by Norm
Badler at U of Penn are working with body models which DO include
"balance processors" and basic behavior patterns like standing and
walking.

Finally, the Lucasfilm computer R&D group (Sprocket Systems) has about
15 people, there were also folks from ILM (Industrial Light and Magic)
another part of Lucasfilm at the conference.  It is likely that the
Sprocket group will eventually use frame buffers which match the
resolution they will record onto film with (2000 to 6000 pixels on the
long axis), since this allows sythetic images to be reprocessed
digitally before being recorded onto film.

One of my favorite papers was the one on simulating lenses and
apertures, it's good to know that after 20 years of research, the
computer graphic community is finally able to make good out-of-focus
images!

-Craig

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1981 18:11:40-PDT
From: ihnss!mhtsa!research!alice!ark at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihnss!mhtsa!research!alice!ark c/o" <V.upstill at Berkeley>

The resolution of 35mm film in practice is frequently limited by
factors other than the film, such as:  lens quality, depth of field,
subject or camera motion.
I used to read a magazine that tested lenses and reported the results
in lines per millimeter.  They once described their procedure, which
was as follows:  The National Bureau of Standards publishes lens test
charts.  They are about 3 by 4 inches and have sets of parallel lines,
both horizontal and vertical, at different distances.  They are
designed so the width of the line equals the width of the space
between the lines, the lines are much longer than they are wide, and
the paper is as light and the lines as dark as the printing technology
used can make them.  I think the paper was about 90% reflective and
the lines about 1%.  The lines were calibrated so that when the chart
was photographed at a known distance from a lens of a known focal
length, the lines/mm on the film could be easily read.

This magazine used Plus-X for their tests, on the basis that it was
the finest-grained film in frequent use by amateur photographers on a
regular basis.  (Panatomic-X is somewhat finer, but much less common,
because of the 2-stop speed difference)

I remember one particular article in which they rated what they said
was the best lens they had ever tested:  the 50mm f/2 Summicron-R for
the (then-new) Leicaflex.  Under the conditions described, the
resolution in the center of the field was something like this:

                2.0     68
                2.8     80
                4.0     80
                5.6     112
                8.0     80
                11.0    80
                16.0    68

I don't remember the edge resolution.

If a lens resolves x lines/mm and a film resolves y lines/mm, the
resulting image will be 1/((1/x)+(1/y)) lines/mm.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that I believe a resolution of
100 lines/mm to be attainable on Panatomic-X under good conditions,
but I would be surprised to see very much more than that.

------------------------------

Date: 11 August 1981 03:13 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: The last word on video resolution!

I decided to do a little research, in the hopes of being definitive.
The following is taken from "Basic Television Principles and
Servicing" by Bernard Grob.

In black and white TV, the video signal is allocated 4 MHz bandwidth.
The visible part of a scan line takes 53.3 microseconds, so the
resolution is 4 000 000 * .000 053 3 = 213 "elements".  Each element
consists of two "pixels", usually one black, one white.  This gets you
426 lines of horizontal resolution.  Note that this is the maximum.
Good, well-maintained studio equipment will come close, say perhaps
400.  Unfortunately, most receivers won't.

The vertical resolution is a different story.  The transmission format
determines the number of scan lines per frame.  In the U.S., the
visible picture contains about 483 scan lines.  Each scan line can
represent at best only one vertical detail.  However, a scan line may
represent no detail at all, by missing a picture element.  Also, two
scan lines may straddle one picture element.  The ratio of the number
of useful scan lines to the number visible is called the <utilization
ratio>.  Experiments show that this ratio ranges from 0.6 to 0.8 for
typical images.  Assume 0.7 as an average.  The vertical resolution is
thus 483 * 0.7 = 338 lines.

So, the maximum number of picture elements possible for the entire
image is 426 * 338, or about 144,000.  This compares with about
500,000 on a 35mm motion picture frame, or 125,000 on a 16mm frame.
Televised reproduction is nearly equivalent to 16mm motion picture
film.

That's for black and white.  For color, it starts to get complicated.
The signal from the camera is in RGB format, three voltages, one for
the intensity of each primary color.  Each has the full 4MHz
bandwidth.  This is clearly too much to cram into a single 4MHz
channel.

Fortunately, you don't need all that information.  The eye contains
separate mechanisms for perceiving intensity and color.  The color
mechanism cannot see fine detail.  The bandwidth can be reduced by
taking advantage of this.

The RGB signals are run through a matrix to produce three new signals:
Y, which corresponds to perceived intensity and is exactly what a B&W
camera would produce; I, which is color along an orange/cyan axis; and
Q, color along a purple/yellow-green axis.  The YIQ signals contain
exactly the same information as the RGB did.

For transmission, the Y signal is given the full 4MHz.  This allows a
B&W receiver to get the picture.  It thus has the same resolution as
the B&W signal discussed above.  I and Q are modulated onto a 3.58 MHz
subcarrier, with I getting 1.5 MHz and Q getting 0.5 MHz.  The
modulation technique is a bit strange, but it does allow the three
signals to coexist.  The difference in bandwidths reflects the fact
that the eye is less sensitive to detail in the Q colors than in the I
colors.

Now the receiver has to take all of this apart.  Most receivers
simplify the circuitry by doing two things:  cutting the Y signal at
about 3 MHz to separate it from the color I&Q signals, and cutting the
I signal to 0.5 MHz.

3MHz horizontal resolution corresponds to 319 lines resolution for the
horizontal intensity detail.  The 0.5 MHz bandwidth for the color
information corresponds to 53 lines.  Since the eye is less sensitive
to color details, these seem to match up well.  Again, these are
limits.  While good studio equipment will be close to them, the
average receiver will not.

The final limit is set by the picture tube.  Commercial color TV tubes
of the dot matrix type use a dot spacing of 0.6 mm.  This gives a
limit of about 310 lines horizontal by 250 vertical.

In practical receivers, the resolution on the screen, then, is usually
about 280 horizontal by 250 vertical, not considering the lower
resolution for the color signals.

I hope this answers all the questions.

                        Paul

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-AUG  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #39
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 AUG 1981 0855-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #39
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Fri, 14 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
                        SF Books - Superbaby,
               SF Movies - "Dark Star" & "Heavy Metal",
     SF Topics - Neutron bomb & Media madness & Meta-discussion,
                       Spoiler - "Superman II"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1981 1150-EDT
From: KAREN DAHLBERG at KIRK
Reply-to: "KAREN DAHLBERG at KIRK in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Long-forgotten curiousness

This is my first entry, and I hope people with bear with me.

This has been bothering me since G-d knows when, but I have to see if
any other sci-fi fanatics might have caught this little known addition
to the world of the mighty typewriter:

Back in 1971, I picked up an odd, rather thin little hardcover with
the title SUPERBABY, and a drawing of an alabaster statue with the old
recognizable "S" cape -- it was about the results of genetic control
namely this obnoxious little kid who was perfect physically and
mentally, but emotionally was a real test case for euthanasia!  He
grew up to be a wino or junkie, and eventually suffered due to his
'perfect status'...

I have not seen this treasure since, and can not remember the author
for the life of me, but I do recall that it was a well-written novel!
Can anyone help my lapse?

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1981 1102-EDT (Thursday)
From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A (C410SC60)
Subject: Dark Star

I'm an old Dark Star fanatic myself.  I've always thought that is one
of the modern SF classics.  Anyway, could anyone mail me the lyrics to
"Benson Arizona" ?  Thanks.  (By the way, there really is a city in
Arizona named Benson.)
        Steven Clark @ cmua

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1981 15:03:28-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!woods in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: dark star
   I am glad to see so many people shared my enthusiasm for this
movie, one of the greatest comedy-satires ever made (admittedly a
personal opinion).  And I should have known that all the "facts" I was
guessing at (i.e. like when the film was made) would be corrected by
some sharpie on the net.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 1126-PDT
From: Moock at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Heavy Metal movie review

        I saw Heavy Metal last night, and I have a few things to say:

Animation:      The style changed with each vignette.  The quality
also changed, and with one exception was visibly cost-conscious.  The
Backgrounds in all cases were elaborate and often breathtaking.  The
animated figures, however, were flat (not surprising, I guess) and not
smooth at all in movements; it looked like maybe 10 fps or less.  In
movements which did not require separate drawings (such as panning the
backgrounds, with several layers, sometimes), movements were smooth.
        All of these comments do NOT apply, however, to the tying-
together vignette of the girl-in-the-house.  Here the animation was
every bit as good as the best Walt Disney.
        Although the vast majority of the pictures were hand-drawn,
the marks of computer-layout of the drawings were evident in
situations of rapid point-of-view movement with exaggerated
perspective.  (This sort of thing could give some viewers a queasy
stomach.)
        In short, I was impressed with the art work, but somewhat
disappointed in the animation.

Plot:
        As with all animated pictures I have seen, there is no
subtlety about anything.  As a matter of fact, great advantage was
taken of the media to draw attention to points of importance.
        There was no character development of any sort that I remember
(at least in any convincing manner), and, with the exception of the
B-17 story (which I REALLY liked!), no suspense.  The humorous stories
were cute and entertaining.
        Yes, there was an abundance of T&A.  But the characters of
strength were not all men; as a matter of fact, the strongest
hero-figure (heroine?) in the movie was female.  Nevertheless, on two
occasions rescued women (gorgeous and big busted) offered their bodies
in payment.

        I think this movie will be a good druggie-cult movie in a few
years, but it won't make any big BO splashes right now.  All in all I
found it entertaining but geared for the high-school loadie.


                                        Enjoy,

                                        Tom Moock

------------------------------
Date: 10 Aug 1981 1148-EDT
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Reply-to: "STEVE LIONEL AT STAR in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: The Krypton Factor

In a previous contribution I mentioned an upcoming ABC-TV show called
"The Krypton Factor".  Its promos consisted of a hurtling fireball
alternated with blurred, slow-motion shots of people running.  Looked
interesting, anyway.  Turns out to be a game show.  Not too bad, as
game shows go, but definitely the most overproduced one I've seen in
ages.  The title has no logical connection with the show itself.
Sigh.
                                Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1981 21:56:12-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihuxl!jej in care of" <CSvax.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: The Drypton Factor--well, maybe that's not a misprint.

"The Krypton Factor" is a game show hosted by (waaaauugh) Dick Clark.
Four contestants are given, quoth he, the "ultimate test of mental and
physical agility" to determine said factor.  (I suppose that since
krypton is an element, they can dodge lawsuits.)

The tests:  playing a "simple" (according to Marilynn Preston, the
Chicago Tribune TV critic, from whose review this comes) electronic
game, remembering a list of names, solving simple integer arithmetic
problems, an obstacle course, remembering details of a film clip, and
simple questions and answers.

The winner gets a standing ovation and a chance at $50K in gold.  (Not
bad for such an "ultimate test".)

I think this show fills, to steal a phrase, a much-needed void.

                                James Jones

(I really MEANT to correctly spell the title, honest!)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 10:47:38-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re: the neutron bomb

   Neut the ghettos?  And have all those people picketing the White
House with signs saying "He turned me into a newt!"?  (Today's obscure
fantasy reference)

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981 20:20 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: media
*from:  SAS (Seth A. Steinberg)

Yup, the television (and possibly newsmagazine) people have arrogated
this term.  I remember some asshole who used to edit PrimeTime (WGBH's
thing) who nearly shat a brick when people started using medium as in
"storing a picture on some magnetic medium."  I hate to think of this
guy running into a biologist or a process chemist who feels that media
are things like Lime Jello or 400 atmosphere carbon dioxide.  Then
again media people are usually dumb and self righteous.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 13 Aug 1981 14:59-PDT
From: david at SU-DSN
Re: Meta-meta-discussion by JTY

I feel compelled, nay, driven, to point out that the appearance of
meta-discussions in SFL are matters of fact.  Discussions of them,
therefore, do not belong in this journal, which involves discussions
about fiction.

This sentence is no longer true.

dave gluss

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981 1603-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: SFL 4:37 Why haggle

Why haggle?  Why bother to knock Raiders of the Lost Ark into an open
Bible discussion or a discussion of whether the type of bullets for
Indy's gun would have been available in downtown Cairo?  Or anything
else (including my previous comment?)

Mental one-upsmanship.  We will all be guilty at points.  I score a
point by proving that I know something that you don't.  You cancel my
point and score one for yourself by disproving me with a related fact.
This is what lawyers do for a living.  Perhaps we should all consider
changing our careers....

However, I would hardly consider this game dangerous.  The subject
matter is mental masturbation anyhow; a unique method of blowing off
excess mental ergs.  When we get tired of one subject, we find another
to kick around.  RotLA has lasted so long because we are all equally
inexpert at the innards of the story (we haven't heard from Spielberg
or Lucas for their explanations).  The Video Resolution debate has
become rather dry as only the experts comment on that, drawing on
references more obscure than the Bible.

I'd suppose that I'll have to agree with Susan's last reason as the
best reason that Navarrone could not be the German sub base.


But........
                                        fun and games,
                                           mitch

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/14/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss the
movie "Superman II" and its consistency with the comic book legend.
Readers who have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1981 16:09:05-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: Superman II reactions and spoiler

I just saw SUPE II.  You could really tell the difference between the
two sets of special effects.  My favorite effect was the breaking up
of the Phantom Zone.  Also, it was clear they punted on several
effects (why?).  When one of the baddies blew the copter down, it
crashed behind a barn!  I wanted to see the copter crash.  Also, why
didn't they show Superman's recharging?  Did it involve Brando?

More questions?  Why didn't they make Jimmy a redhead?  Why didn't
Perry White say ``Great Caesar's Ghost''?  Why didn't Supe use
Kryptonite on the baddies?  Why didn't he use a Superman robot in a
flyby to allay Lois' suspicions?  The Superman I know would have
(after tripping over the bearskin) either blown out the fire
(super-breath) or would have made up his hand to look burned (at
super-speed).  Since when can Kryptonians levitate objects?  Why
didn't they explain how Luthor was wearing a wig all the time?  Why is
the one set of effects so grainy and blurred?  Also, I like the real
Fortress-of-Solitude much better than the chandelier-store in the
movie.  (The real one has a key disguised as an airplane marker.)
Finally, can someone refresh me as to the history of the film?

David Ungar

P.S.  As with Supe I, I thought the best character to be Luthor.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 17:52:52-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: Response to my recent Supe II comments.

I relayed my recent comments to a genuine SF/genre/film fan, Mark
Leeper (works at BTL Holmdel).  He sent me the following response.
Replies may be sent through me (David Ungar (dmu)) here at Berkeley.
------------------------

I am not sure what you are asking about the history of the film but I
can tell you a few things.  The two Superman films we have seen so far
were originally filmed as a single unit.  This is a formula that the
Brothers Salkind & Richard Lester started with THREE/FOUR MUSKETEERS.
That was shot as a single unit and when they were done, the producers
told the actors "Surprise, you have just made two films, not just
one."  The actors responded, "Surprise, we're suing you."  For
SUPERMAN I/II the contracts made very clear that it was two films
being made.  It took a VERY LONG time for SUPERMAN I to show a profit
due to the humongous budget, but part of that can be written off as
investment on SUPERMAN II which is doing better at the boxoffice than
its predecessor.  Part of the reason SUPE-I cost so much was the cost
of fine-tuning the flying effect, which held up production for a long
time.  The effect, incidently, is created with a blue-screen technique
much like those in STAR WARS.  Reeve stands tiptoe on a blue screen
while cameras swoop down at him.  The blue screen is then keyed out of
the resulting image and background replaces it.  You will notice in
the flying sequences that you do not see the toes of Reeve's boots
(since they would show that they are carrying his weight) nor could
they achieve the effect of having Superman fly past the camera, (since
this would entail dropping the camera right through the blue screen).

Why did they punt on so many of the special effects in SUPERMAN II?
Money!!  In fact it did seem like the special effects in SUPE-II were
several cuts below those of SUPE-I.  Matte lines were much more
apparent.

As for why did they make big changes in story from the comic book
mythos, as far as I remember even the comic books weren't faithful to
the comic books.  They contradicted themselves a great deal over the
years.  In the early comic books SUPERMAN did not make himself known
to the world until he was an adult, yet later there were SUPERBOY
comics.  Ever wonder about the phrase "leap tall buildings in a single
bound?"  Doesn't that sound like something of an understatement for
someone who can fly through space under his own power?  The early
Superman did not fly, but could jump the height of a building.  Later
the stories call for higher jumping.  Eventually they claimed he could
in one leap jump across the city, jumping from the roof of a building.
Some physics major pointed out to them that the force of such a jump
would crush the building he was jumping from.  So the word came down
from on high that he no longer jumped but actually flew.

While you are asking questions, let me ask a few of my own.  As far as
I remember the Fortress is pretty far north and is isolated.  So how
come Luthor is able to find it on a snow-mobile and when Superman
loses his powers, how does he get back home from it?  Do super-powers
include the ability to talk in a vacuum as the villains do on the
moon.  Probably the most believable thing about the film is the well
thought-out escape from the Phantom Zone.  I found the fact that the
Phantom Zone window just happened to be floating past Earth at the
same instant that Superman was detonating a bomb in space the most
credible part of the film.  I can't account for the popularity of
SUPE-II whose action scenes smack more and more of those in Japanese
monster films.  Before I'd recommend SUPE-II I'd recommend
DRAGONSLAYER, RAIDERS, BLOW OUT or even CLASH OF THE TITANS.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-AUG  "MDP at MIT-ML"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #40
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 AUG 1981 1042-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-ML
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #40
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 15 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:
            SF Radio - Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
         SF Movies - "Dark Star" & "Raiders of the Lost Ark",
                      SF Topics - Neutron bomb,
                 SF Books - Blakeley's Ark & Ilands &
            I Will Fear No Evil & Known Space chronology,
                    Spoiler - Niven's Known Space
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 August 1981 15:23 edt
From: JRuggiero.PDO at MIT-Multics
Subject: HHGttG-songs

Here are the words to the Sirius Cybernetics Corp. Complaints
Department song :

        Share and enjoy, share and enjoy
        Journey through life with a plastic boy
        Or girl by your side, let your pal be your guide
        And when it breaks down or starts to annoy
        Or grinds when it moves and gives you no joy
        Cause it eats up your hat or had sex with your cat
        Made a pile of your wall or ripped off your door
        And you get to the point you can't stand anymore
        Bring it to us, we won't give a fig
        We'll tell you (pause) "Go stick your head in a pig"


only slightly worse....

By the way, the music played before and after every episode is an
Eagles tune called "The Journey of the Sorceror".
                                -john

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1981 (Saturday) 0421-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: \Dark Star/

I, too, love \Dark Star/, and am happy to have company.  It was up
against the movie version of Harlan Ellison's \A Boy and His Dog/ for
the 1975 Hugo, given in September 1976, so it was first released in
1975.  Unfortunately aBaHD won, although it too was good.

\Dark Star/, I read somewhere, was made for $60_000 (ADA-style number,
don't you know).
                                -- Sam
------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981 11:34-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject: Does Indy reload his gun?

    From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
    Subject: Indy's gun
    ... Do you see Indy reload anytime during the film?  If he uses
    cartridges held together with C-shaped metal clips, in groups of
    3, those are .45 ACP in half-moon clips.  If he uses single
    cartridges, it could be the same gun using .45 Auto-Rim, or
    another.
    ------------------------------

It seems to me that we do see Indy reloading his gun during the first
fight scene in the bar.  Indy is hiding in a doorway and and pulls out
a handful of cartridges (this is all hazy; I'm not really sure) and
then moments later we see him firing away again.  --Dennis

------------------------------

Date: 14 August 1981 10:26-EDT
From: Oded Anoaf Feingold <OAF at MIT-MC>
Subject: rotla

Just saw it - if you value yer life don't talk to me about it.

------------------------------

Date: 14 August 1981 10:23-EDT
From: Oded Anoaf Feingold <OAF at MIT-MC>
Subject: the neutron bomb

Neut indeed, Chip.  Typos I can live with, but sometimes you axolotl
patience.  (Any replies should please go via ARMS-D.)

Oded

What was the obscure fantasy reference?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1981 13:21:46-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: the neutron bomb

   The reference was to MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL (which counts
as obscure more because people seem not to think of it as fantasy than
because people haven't heard of it).

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1981 1446-PDT
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: A newt?
Well, it got better.

/Mike


[A mob was burning a witch at the stake.  They knew she was a witch
because of the testimony of a fellow who claimed, "She turned me into
a newt!"  After a moment, to explain why he was not at that instant
still a newt, he added, "I got better."  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 15 August 1981 03:43-EDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSOL at MIT-MC>
Subject: SF Book Reviews

First one is "Blakeley's Ark", by Ian Macmillan.  I don't know if this
book has been discussed,  but it's (without making  this a spoiler)  a
classic tale  of  where civilation  MIGHT  be  headed if  we  are  not
careful.  The story takes place in the hear but unknown future, action
moving from  Upstate New  York, near  Buffalo, to  New York  City.   A
Deadly  parasitic  virus  has  killed  off  about  90%  of  the  human
population  of  earth,  New  York  City  has  a  dome  enclosing   it,
effectively becoming a giant enclosed building.  Anyway this boy named
Blakeley watches his father die of the virus, but his father has  been
preparing for this event for some time so he (the boy) is well trained
at what to  do.  He heads  out for  New York City,  and actually  gets
inside (something which was thought to be impossible!!).

A major  point  of the  book  is that  the  boy survives  and  doesn't
contract  the  virus  because  he   chooses  his  own  body   defenses
(antibodies)  rather   than   the   "civilized"   methods   (such   as
antibiotics).  When he finally arrives in the "complex" he is  greeted
by numerous scientists, and researchers trying to find a cure for  the
virus.  Unfortunately  when he  tells  him the  way he  survives  they
aren't ready to accept the reality of the situation.  Typical.

A smaller point along  the same lines, but  if you aren't careful  you
could miss that the virus COULD have been someone's Biological Warfare
Experiment backfired  (I.e. that  it  was  manmade).  That's  not  the
ending but  it has  a great  deal to  do with  the conflict  regarding
medicine vs. the bodies natural healing capacities.

I just noticed that this book  is new, Copyrighted in 1981,  therefore
most people probably  haven't heard of  this book.  Above  all it's  a
good book and I enjoyed it.

Shorter review for the  "Ilands", by Marta Randall.   This is a  story
about a girl living in the midst of people who had found the  fountain
of youth, only it doesn't seem to work on her!  A single mortal in the
midst of  Immortals, but  she has  many traits  of humanity  that  the
Immortals seemed to have lost.  Anyway it's great reading, go find  it
at your nearest bookstore.

Finally there is Heinlein.  I took the liberty of reading "I Will Fear
no Evil".  Those who have read this novel can quit reading here, those
who haven't should definitely read it.  It's a great book about a very
old and rich man who  inherited the body of  a woman.  Finally we  see
someone who understands  the insides of  a woman's body  when given  a
man's brain.  Somehow it might be  considered just as if Heinlein  had
written about a woman, since it would  have been from a male point  of
view (his).

Well, I've always had a soft spot  in me for THOSE kinds of  books....
(You tell 'em, Boss) (keep quiet and let me finish!)

Cheers/JSol

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1981 1556-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: Known space order

Check your Niven.
"Borderland of Sol" features Beowulf Shaeffer and Carlos Wu, and takes
place about 200 years before "Ringworld".  Note that they discuss
'young Louis,' a babe of two at most.  This is the same Louis Wu who
begins "Ringworld" by celebrating his 200th birthday.

Borderland of Sol before Ringworld.
                                                mitch

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/15/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
details of Niven's "known space" series.  Readers who have not read A
World Out of Time, World of Ptavvs, Neutron Star, Ringworld, The
Ringworld Engineers, "Wait It Out", or Borderland of Sol may wish to
read no further.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 (Wednesday) 0857-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: *SPOILER* Known Space Cycle

The references to Known Space stories have brought up an old question
of mine, never answered.

Beowulf Sheaffer lived before Louis Wu, and I don't recall any mention
of whether or not Beowulf used boosterspice.  When the puppeteers came
looking for a human adventurer to go to the Ringworld, they picked
Louis, not Beowulf.  Assuming Beowulf was still alive, there are at
least two reasons why he would not have been picked:

(1) He always did his best to screw over his puppeteer employers (for
    his own profit, of course), and the Ringworld mission would give a
    human much more oportunity for doing that; and

(2) If I remember correctly, he retired on a blackmail pension after
    "Neutron Star", having told the puppeteers that he had deduced
    their world's moonlessness.  The puppeteers would have had no way
    to induce him to come (except by kidnapping a la \The Ringworld
    Engineers/, which would have gotten him dangerously angry).

Beowulf lived on earth with a woman named Sharron, who could not leave
Earth (phobia or something).  Unfortunately Beowulf was not allowed
birthright, but Sharron was, so for a year or two she lived with
Carlos Wu, procreator-at-large, while Beowulf went off into space.

The question is:  Who are Louis Wu's parents?  Is his father Carlos?
Carlos had a lot of kids.  Could his mother by some chance be Sharron?
Knowing how much emphasis the puppeteers placed on Good Breeding,
might they have wanted a child of Beowulf's on the Ringworld mission?
Perhaps they figured that since he had no children, a child raised by
him, as Carlos and Sharron's presumably were, would be the next best
thing.  Or, perhaps after all his missions the Earth government let
him have children.  But why would the kid's last name be Wu?

My own thought is that none of these things are true.  Louis Wu's
surname is Wu because Carlos Wu had many children, most of whom had
good genes and so were also allowed many children, until there were
many people named Wu; and Louis happened to be one of them.

My memory of these stories is not good.  Have I missed some vital
information?  Have I gotten my facts or chronology seriously wrong?
Any further speculations?

                                -- Sam

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1981 1150-EDT
From: RDVAX::REINKE
Reply-to: "RDVAX::REINKE in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SF Lovers Digest

Re the query about "hereis a plot, whatis its title?" from INSANE at
MIT.  The plot does refer to a Niven story - the one about J.B.
Corbell who gets frozen and wakes up in the future and his personality
is injected into a brain-wiped criminal and he becomes a rammer.  I
forget the title but he runs away with the rammer and travels to the
future.  In the world, immortal, permanently immature boys are warring
with ditto girls and at one point the girls drop a moon into Jupiter
to heat it up to compensate for moving the earth too far from the sun.

I have a query of my own.  Recently I read a Joanna Russ book called
The Two of Us.  The plot reminded me of another book that I read but I
cannot remember the author or title.  The plot goes something like
this:  There is a world with an Arab type society where women are kept
in Purda and uneducated.  A major source of status in the society is
poetry and young men study long to take tests that allow them a chance
to become poets.  A woman may take the test - but with no studying.
If she fails to make the highest possible score she is then confined
to an isolated room for life - which had happened to the aunt of the
heroine of the story.

The heroine of the story takes the test, passes with highest honors
and becomes chief poet of the world.  (Poetess?)  The story is told in
flashbacks when in her old age she encounters people from another
planet.

Do you recognize the story?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1981 1150-EDT
From: PAUL WINALSKI at METOO
Reply-to: "PAUL WINALSKI at METOO in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: INSANE's reply in SFL 4 #32 to MJL's plot query in SFL 4 #31

The plot about Jupiter catching fire sounds familiar to me, too.  It
certainly sounds Nivenesque, but I can't place it exactly.  There are
two Niven stories I can think of that involve either planets catching
fire or rearrangement of the solar system:

In "World of Ptavvs," Pluto catches fire.

In "A World Out of Time," funny games are played with Earth and
Uranus.  I think the Earth winds up orbiting Jupiter.  Nothing about
Jupiter turning into a star, though....

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 23:46:30-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Miscellany from previous digests

Some observations on recent digest entries:

Niven did indeed "light" Jupiter in \\A World Out of Time//, but did
not turn it into another star.  After the Girls messed up the Solar
System in their first set-to with the Boys, the biosphere was in an
unattractive position wrt the Asteroid belt and Jupiter (at least for
an Earthlike planet, so they solved the problem by making the Earth a
satellite of Jupiter and arranging things so Ganymede would move into
a grazing orbit to supply enough heat to compensate for Earth's being
a little too far out.  But they messed things up again; Ganymede
dropped straight in and the Earth got about 30 degrees too hot, since
Jupiter was now less sub- and more stellar.

Another entry mentioned Pluto burning.  This reminds me of two Niven
stories.  In one, which I can't place offhand, an iceball type planet
(but not Pluto) is torched off in this fashion, but the explorers
leave safely.  However, in "Wait It Out", an expedition lands on Pluto
in the early days of space exploration, melts out a landing spot
through all the frozen gases, but gets stuck when the water that was
left behind refreezes around their exhaust jets.

                                        Bill Laubenheimer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #41
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 AUG 1981 1815-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #41
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sun, 16 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - The Mind's I & Poetess response & "Recoil" & Niven,
               SF Movies - "Dark Star" & "Heavy Metal",
                        Spoiler - Known space
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1981 (Sunday) 1611-EST
From: DYER at  NBS-10
Subject: New D. Hofstadter book


     From the Washington Post Sunday BOOK WORLD:

     . . . THE MIND'S I (Basic/Sept.) by Douglas Hofstadter and Daniel
Dennett . . . tackles the question of the existence of the human soul.
(Hofstadter is the author of the intricate GODEL, ESCHER, BACH; one
early judgment on this new work is that "it's an anthology with heavy
padding.")

     Does anyone know any more about this book?


-lmd

------------------------------

Date: 15 August 1981 21:42-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Here's the plot, what's the title - Poetess story reply

I believe the story is by Ursula LeGuin and is called something like
"In Remembrance of Ruth".  Unfortunately after a fairly extensive
search I have been unable to find the story or any reference to it.
In any case, please send me the name of the story and where to find
it... I want to re-read it!

-- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1981 16:06:42-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: recent queries

  1. I went back to the original November 1943 ASTOUNDING and found
that the George O. Smith story "Recoil" does indeed include a
suggestion to plate a villain's ship with U-235 and fire slow neutrons
at it.  The FBI probably was inured to this by then---I seem to recall
that the Cleve Cartmill incident (in which an A-bomb was actually
described) happened the previous year.
  2. RDVAX::REINKE's query is a description of Suzette Haden Elgin's
AT THE SEVENTH LEVEL (although as I recall a woman didn't \have/ to
reach the seventh level of poetic skill since the heroine was inspired
by a woman at around level 4).  This and 3 (?) other works form a set
describing the Consentiency (?) and one of its maverick agents, Coyote
Jones.  Not terrific but worthwhile.  Elgin is better known
professionally as one of the more active members of the Science
Fiction Poetry Association.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1981 2003-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: "Known Space Order"

     When Steven M. Bellovin said that "`Borderland of Sol' is
considerably later than `Ringworld'", from context it is almost
certainly clear he meant that "Borderland of Sol" was written after
"Ringworld" - not that it occurs later in the Known Space timeline.

                        -Doug

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 15 August 1981  14:45-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Title of Niven Story

is indeed \World Out of Time/, the book being made by appending to the
short story "Rammer."  (Begin incite-controversy-mode) In my opinion
"Rammer" was an excellent story and would have been much better left
alone, \World Out of Time/ did not do it credit.  I'm pleased to see
that people don't remember it very well.

                            Ken

------------------------------

Date: 16 August 1981 05:45-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: KDO's Controversy

I noticed you forgot to balance parens...
(Leave incite-controversy-mode)

-- Charles

ps. I liked A World Out of Time.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1981 1709-EDT
From: MD at MIT-XX
Subject: Dark Star

        With all the talk recently about Dark Star, I thought the
Boston-area readers might be interested to know that LSC at MIT is
showing Dark Star on Labor Day.  That's Monday, September 7, at 7:00
and 9:30 in MIT room 26-100.

                                Mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1981 0816-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: HEAVY METAL and Cavett interviewing Spielberg

I had just seen Heavy Metal and was about to write a review when I
read Tom Moock's review; he said most of what I was going to say.  I
had prepared myself for going by spending a couple evenings immersed
in some back issues of Heavy Metal I picked up cheap at Archon (plus a
decade or so of underground comix collecting) and came out feeling
just a little disappointed.  While the artwork was pretty much true to
the style and spirit of the original artists' drawing, when expanded
to theatre-screen size and animated, it looked subtly wrong.  I think
I expect animation on a movie screen to be much more Disneyesque than
comix-like; the styles I would find quite acceptable on the printed
page didn't seem right on the screen.  It may have been a lack of
detail in the figures, especially nude scenes -- sort of broad washes
of flat flesh-color instead of depth and form of the figure.  Of
course, that's the way they are drawn in comic pages; the movie is
certainly true to the spirit of the magazine, and I can't complain
about "truth in advertising"!

The music also didn't seem to come across the way it should have.
Maybe some of this was due to the theatre I was in -- it just wasn't
LOUD enough, as such music must be.  However, I don't think there was
enough of it.  Maybe it just went through my brain without
registering, but it seemed that there could have been more of it and
it could have grabbed the viewer and overwhelmed the senses more.

Nonetheless, it was certainly worth seeing, especially at cheap
weekday matinee prices.

On to Cavett & Spielberg:  If you missed the first half of the 2-part
interview which was on Thursday the 13th, you didn't miss much.  (I am
assuming that this is a repeat of one broadcast earlier this year, due
to internal evidence.)  Most of the time seemed to be idle chatter
about the problems encountered in filming JAWS.  Cavett stated that he
hadn't seen Raiders, and described the plot briefly for the audience.
That led me to believe that it must have been aired first back when
Raiders first was released; by now, surely everyone in the English-
speaking world has seen and heard vast amounts about the film, even if
they hadn't seen it.  They showed a film clip from it, which turned
out to be the same one used in Sneak Previews' review!  (Taking the
idol from the temple.)  Very disappointing.  Should have been
something different; after all, any PBS audience who would be watching
a Spielberg interview would also have watched Sneak Previews!  Should
use more variety of clips and try not to repeat the same ones; this
seems to be a common situation.  (Question:  do the studios control
what clips are used?  Could this one [and the other used on Sneak
Previews] be the ONLY ones allowed out?  Or can critics expect to get
a clip of any scene they want for video reviews?)

Will be watching tonight to see what the second half brings.

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 14 August 1981 1039-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: Heavy Metal should be scrapped

The movie stank.  I can't understand how anyone can recommend this
piece of trash as an engaging fantasy, not even for the masturbating
adolescents for whom it was made.

The animation, as has been noted elsewhere, was of inconsistent
quality, but mostly poor; while the backdrops did indeed show some of
the skill of the panels in the magazine, they did not command the
attention of the audience, nor did they make up for the jerky quality
of the characters' motions.  Bakshi did a lot better in "Wizards".

As for the "stories", the writers took some of the strips from the mag
with the least connected plots, deleted most of the circumstances, and
used the resultant 5-line synopsis as the basis of the respective
vignettes "Den" and "So Beautiful and So Dangerous".  While Corben's
strip was never narratively engaging, McKie's visitation by aliens and
resultant misfit exodus was in interesting absurdist comedy; ALL of
that was lost in the film.

I never saw the Dan O'Bannon stories in the magazine, although the
"Harry Canyon" story looked suspiciously like his collaberation with
Moebius, "The Long Tomorrow".  However, even though a lot of the
artwork is clearly imitative of Moebius' in both technique and imagery
(those tail shots of Taarna on the acromegalic quail looked an awful
lot like "Harzak" on his pteranodon), his name was nowhere among the
credits.  Seems rather sleazy to me.

As for the use of women in the film (and I do mean use), it was truly
disgusting.  I don't see how anyone can say that the strongest
character in the film was a woman.  Is it strength to be blessed with
supernatural powers and then deliberately allow oneself to be
tortured, humiliated, and sliced open severally, rather than use those
powers?  All because one is saving those powers for one's ultimate
self-annihilation in the name of "Good"?  Taarna was a loser!  Even
her goddam giant pigeon got sliced and stabbed for no reason other
than her ownership.  The rest of the women were either greedy, horny,
and stupid, or loving, horny, and stupid.  Really, now!  How many
women do you know who would react to a narrow escape from death by
becoming overwhelmingly sexually aroused, to the point where their
fulfillments of their desires lead them right back into deadly peril?
These women were nothing more than pneumatic robots who were
programmed to coo "Oooh, it's so big!" or some such.  Even the
magazine did better.

Notice also that the movie's one surrealist vignette ("Soft Landing")
was used as a backdrop for the opening credits?  The best part of the
magazine, in my opinion, was the French surrealist one-shot strips.
They usually displayed rather intriguing conceptual dissonance and
wonderful Impressionistic execution.  However, these were left out of
the movie (I don't think that the "B-17" segment fits in this
category) probably because the quality was not high enough to capture
the flavor of the originals, or because the producers thought their
inclusion might alienate potential viewers.

And finally, the ending was one of the most insulting pieces of drivel
I've seen in a long time!  "...and all the bad guys got run over by a
big, cosmic truck, and the good guys lived happily for at least a
generation after"??!!  Come on!  Really has the stamp of the Lampoon
crew on it.

Obviously I'm not going to recommend that you see this movie.
However, those of you who think that Robert Heinlein is a great sf
author with a clear perception of human nature, that Penthouse is a
forum for open discussion of current sexuality, or that the current
"Heavy Metal" magazine is a great adult science fantasy comic will
probably enjoy it tremendously.

------------------------------

Date: 16 August 1981 06:47-EDT
From: Daniel F. Chernikoff <DFC at MIT-MC>
Subject: Heavy Metal and the Penny-gon

I just saw the heavy Metal Movie, and liked it very much.  One laudit
I would especially like to give it concerns the vignette that took
place at the Pentagon.  I have worked at the pentagon for several
years, and grimace inside every time a TV show or movie has a scene at
the 'gon, because they invariably pull the geography out of their
head.  A paradigm of this is a Bionic Man episode I remember where the
OSI headquarters is located "just across the street" from the
pentagon.  Well, on one side of the pentagon is a river and lagoon,
and on the other side, across Interstate 395, is three apartment
buildings.  Heavy metal, on the other hand, was amazingly accurate.
The aerial view of the 'gon (which looked like computer vector-style
graphics, 3D) was perfect as far as the surrounding roads and the
structure of the building.  They even included the new (2 years old)
metro station/bus lane, and the cafeteria in the center courtyard!  A
very nice touch.  Of course the inside was totally wrong, but that's
to be expected.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/16/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They reveal
details about Niven's known space series.  Readers not familiar with
this series may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1981 1212-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: [Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #40]

Actually (in reference to the baroque rearrangement of the solar
system in "A World Out of Time"), the Girls were not responsible for
Sol heating up.  It was the colonies in their war against the State.
The Girls were responsible for overheating the Earth-as-Jovian-moon by
dropping a decimal place in their orbital calculations (it was, after
all, at least a four-body problem), and dropping Ganymede into Jupiter
a tad too hard.  Of course, by the time Corbell and the Boys find this
out, there haven't been any Girls for a long time.

        Dave

------------------------------

Date: 15 August 1981 21:32-EDT
From: "Charles E. Haynes, Jr." <CEH at MIT-MC>,
      "Donald R. Woods" <Woods at PARC-MAXC>
Subject: *SPOILER* Known Space replies

(To Kendall at Harv-10)

(1) First off, to be picky, the Known Space works are a series, not a
    cycle.

(2) Beowulf did not retire after "Neutron Star".  He later tested the
    Quantum II hyperdrive for the puppeteers in "At the Core".  In
    that story we find that Beowulf needed the money because he had
    used up all the blackmail money he got at the end of "Neutron
    Star".  (He couldn't continue blackmailing them because he had
    signed to a contract about the whole thing.)

(3) The woman's name was Sharrol, not Sharron.  Carlos Wu was NOT a
    "procreator-at-large"; he acted as such for Bey and Sharrol only
    because they were good friends (as noted in "The Borderland of
    Sol").  We can tell that it's not just a matter of taking time out
    of his busy schedule, because he also says "I've already had my
    share of children, and yours too!"

(4) It is in TBoS that we find that Louis Wu is the child of Sharrol
    and Carlos.  When Carlos meets Bey, he says he "left Earth a
    couple of weeks after Louis was born."

(5) Your most accurate statement is that your "memory of these stories
    is not good."

(To Winalski at METOO)

As long as you're recounting all the Niven stories in which planets
are moved around, don't forget "One Face", in which the Earth's
rotation is restored after it had died out over many eons.  (This is
not actually part of the Known Space series, though Niven used some of
the facets of KS in it, e.g., boosterspice.)

(To CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley)

We can't think of a Niven story in which an ice-ball planet other than
Pluto is torched.  "World of Ptavvs", as other people have mentioned,
does include the burning of Pluto, and it is most certainly Pluto.
(In fact, Pluto caught fire twice:  once when Kzanol's spacesuit hit
it and once in the course of the story.)  It's sort of interesting
that Pluto didn't catch fire in "Wait It Out"; the landing in that
story explicitly involved melting through the frozen gases to reach
ice, but it's not clear what sort of drive was being used (it might
have produced heat without combustion?  and without any chance of
igniting combustion?  hmm...).  Probably just Niven didn't think of
the burning-planet hack until the later story.

Of course, if you want to count all cases of planets exploding, don't
forget Cueball, the anti-matter planet in "Flatlander"!

        -- Charles and Don

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #42
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 AUG 1981 0627-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #42
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 17 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:
                 SF Books - Known space books query,
                       SF Topics - Immortality,
             SF Movies - "Heavy Metal" & "Superman II" &
                      "Raiders of the Lost Ark",
                           Spoiler - RotLA
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 August 1981 1842-EDT (Sunday)
From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A (C410SC60)
Subject: Known Space

Could someone give me a list of the books in Known Space, and which
ones to read before which other ones?  I just read "Ringworld" and I'm
hooked (not surprising given its reputation).
                -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1981 1621-PDT
From: John Redford <icl.redford at SU-SCORE>
Subject: immortality

The mention of a society of immortals in the review of "Ilands"
reminded me of a book from the mid-sixties called "The Immortalist",
by Alan Harrington.  It was a political tract devoted to the theme
that all possible resources should be put immediately into research to
prevent aging.  The basic idea was that there is no limit to human
ambition; ultimately nothing less than godhood will be satisfying.
Harrington thought that the unrest in modern society was largely due
to the thwarting of this ambition.  Our physical powers are becoming
more godlike every year, so why not take the next logical step?
    Me, I think that immortality would be about the worst thing that
could befall the human race.  If some malevolent alien wanted to
prevent humanity from going anywhere the easiest way to do it would be
to whisper a cure for death into someone's ear.  Stasis would set in;
the older people got the more they would have to lose, and so the
fewer risks they would take.  A twenty year old might ride a
motorcycle without a helmet because he's willing to risk a head injury
in exchange for feeling the wind in his hair, but a forty year old
probably won't take the chance.  A thousand year old person might not
dare to cross the street; walk across enough times and you are bound
to get hit.  The same caution applies to intellectual matters as well.
I think it was Planck who said that new theories never change anyone's
mind, it's just that the older scientists die off.  Sure, each of us
would like to live forever, but the non-death of the individual would
be the death of the species.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1981 (Sunday) 2138-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: \Heavy Metal/ cast

The voice of the navigator in the "B-17" sketch and of a barbarian in
the Taarna sketch was one Zal Yanovsky.  I'm sure you all remember who
he was--the lead guitarist of The Lovin' Spoonful, a popular rock band
("Do You Believe In Magic?", "Daydream", "Summer in the City") circa
1970, lead by John Sebastian.  Is he the "Sebastian" who also appears
in the \Heavy Metal/ credits?

                                        -- Sam

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1981 2339-PDT (Sunday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: HEAVY METAL / SUPERMAN II / RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK

These days I tend to avoid making public comments about motion
pictures, but tonight I make an exception.

I recently absorbed HEAVY METAL, SUPERMAN, and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
over roughly a two day period.

Just a few comments:

HEAVY METAL

1)  I am not a HEAVY METAL comics reader.  Of course, I've skimmed a
    few from time to time, but I am not an expert on the genre.  I
    found the movie to be tolerable.  From me, these days, that is a
    high compliment!  If I can come out of a film not feeling like I
    threw away my money, then I've accomplished something!  (Or, in
    the case of private screenings, if I felt like I wouldn't have
    thrown away my money if I HAD paid!)

2)  Perhaps the reason I found HM not too disappointing is that I went
    in expecting very little.  Persons with super high hopes no doubt
    would have received a considerably different impression.  The
    animation was about at the level I expected, there were occasional
    segments which were semi-clever, and I got a few chuckles out of
    it.  I doubt if the film was supposed to accomplish much more.

3)  I would probably not bother to see it again, but if you can get in
    fairly cheap, go ahead.  Whether you really want to spend $5.00
    down at the first-run (even with a good sound system) is another
    matter.

SUPERMAN II

1)  I found Superman II to be enjoyable.  The film was only fair
    technically, but since it is very "light" entertainment, it really
    didn't detract too much.  If they can continue to maintain the
    current level of humor in the future SUPERMAN films, they might
    manage to put out a couple more decent segments before the concept
    fissles out.

2)  I really liked the super bad "guys".  Zod in particular seemed
    like a fun sort of person.

RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK

1)  Oh oh.  Here we go.  Force fields up.  Deflectors full intensity.
    Arm photon torpedoes.  I guess I must be slipping even farther
    outside the mainstream of society than I thought!  From all the
    reviews, reports, statements, and testimonials I saw, read, and
    heard, I was expecting a masterpiece.  What I got was (in my
    opinion) a half-baked adventure film which, if produced by anyone
    other than Lucas, would have been mercilessly condemned.

2)  Perhaps I was expecting too much.  No doubt it was too much to
    expect well developed characters, a clearly delineated and
    developed plot, and similar niceties.  I found the characters to
    be at the STAR WARS level (Here is archeologist with white hat.
    Here is mean German who represents Darth), and the plot to be more
    full of holes than the proverbial Swiss cheese.  Yeah, there was
    lots of action.  That's about all.  A true triumph for the
    stuntmen.  But what was the point?  Summer Throwaway
    Entertainment?  SUPERMAN II was that, but made no pretenses at
    being anything else.  I could ACCEPT plot inconsistencies there,
    but somehow RAIDERS had the potential to be much more, and totally
    missed the boat.

3)  The ending was pure Lucas.  Look!  Battle scene!  Special Effects!
    Bad guys get theirs!  Stay tuned for next chapter (RETURN OF THE
    ARK?)

4)  No doubt I've completely missed the point.  No doubt all Lucas
    wanted was to produce another comic book.  In that case, he
    succeeded.  STAR WARS was a comic book.  EMPIRE started to emerge
    a bit out of the genre, but still held on to a large part of its
    origins.

?? A QUESTION ??

HEAVY METAL -- A COMIC BOOK
SUPERMAN II -- A COMIC BOOK
RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK -- A COMIC BOOK

Could we be watching the creation of a dynasty of "pulp" movies?
Could the filmakers finally be coming around to the same manner of
thinking as the network television execs, who KNOW that, by and large,
the most successful material to produce is inherently non-thought-
provoking, action-packed, and aimed at the 12-18 year age level?

The massive success of such films, and the comparative failures of
many "other" films, could well lead us into a situation where only the
highly successful (MASS APPEAL) films will be able to achieve the
massive funding required for production in today's environment.

Will we soon find cinema reduced to comic books (both SF and non-SF)
and simple (cretinous) horror films (watch the helpless woman being
terrorized by the man with the axe)?  I certainly hope not.  But the
writing is clearly on the wall... and on the screen.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/17/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss
events of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" which readers who have not seen
this movie may not wish to read.

------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1981 23:49-EDT
From: Landon M. Dyer <ZEMON at MIT-MC>
Subject: Snakes in RotLA -- possible spoiler

        Random bits from an interview with the producer of RotLA on
the Dick Cavett Show.  I will not vouch for the truthfulness of the
following, but it is what I heard, paraphrased a lot :

        There were over 7,000 snakes in the 'Well of Souls' scenes;
originally 3,000 had been budgeted for, but they tended to bunch up
and looked like 'dust in the corner.'

        Karen Allen, who played Ford's female sidekick, was absolutely
terrified of snakes.  She was so scared, as it turned out, that she
could not scream properly.  The director solved this problem by
dropping a snake on her from a scaffold when she was unawares -- it
just happened to land around her shoulders.  He then dubbed the
resulting scream into the soundtrack in other appropriate places in
the film . . . about eleven of them.

-lmd

------------------------------

Date: 16 August 1981 03:58-EDT
From: V. Ellen Golden <ELLEN at MIT-MC>
Subject: RotLA

This (judging from how other such comments are rated) is probably a
spoiler, although I would question if it really is... anyway, I have
read with delight some of the comments on the great scene where
Indiana Jones shoots that Arab, but all of them have centered on some
other aspect of this scene (it was a happenstance because they didn't
want to shoot another complicated fight, it is a commentary on life in
the technical age, etc...).  Has anyone considered that it is what in
a drama would be called "Comic Relief"?  It is the "change of pace"
(relief!) which allows us (and poor Indiana) to catch our breath.  If
it indeed was a "happenstance" or other random event then its
appearance in the film should not be laughed off, but should be
credited to the editor and the director for RECOGNIZING it for the
perfect scene it is.  We have had up to then almost unrelenting action
or tension, and all of a sudden (we are out of breath) YET ANOTHER
swordsman leaps into the fray... and gets shot.  STOP.  Sigh.  (laugh,
with relief, catch breath, Cheer! and onward...).

To further my point, let me compare it to the other scene which has
been mentioned:  the "coat hanger" horror, ... that is funny, and we
all laugh with some relief over it, but the preceding scene, a semi-
seduction with assorted overtones, doesn't build up in quite the same
way the unrelenting chase prior to the swordsman scene has.  Rather it
is a tense situation which is keeping us in suspense.  The appearance
of the Nazi guy makes us think that torture is to be the outcome, so
when he brings out the "chain with the bars on it" we expect the
worse, but it is a calmer moment, nothing like the bazaar (bizarre)
scenes preceding the swordsman's apprearance.  We watch with a more
detached fascination, and "poof", it becomes a coat hanger and we
laugh... too soon, to be sure, but still, it is a different kind of
climax.

Another sort of similar scene is the famous telephone booth shot from
Superman I (quickly shown in the leadin to Superman II).  Now, this is
again different from both the above, but once again a similar kind of
"visual gag".  After all, Our Hero in that movie could not have
expected a different kind of phone booth... BUT THE AUDIENCE DID!
Therein lies the humor.

All three of these scenes can be described as "gags" but each is
different.  However, each provides a sort of change of pace in the
immediate portion (a joke on the viewer) of the movie in which it
appears.  In Superman I we have all been waiting for Superman to "do
his thing"... oops, we get temporarily disturbed (phone booth?).  In
the seduction scene we know something bad is going to happen... oops,
no not yet...  In the Bazaar chase, we are out of breath and "Oh my
gosh, here comes another one... we're done for now... oops, no, shoot
him!"

Of course, those who want to seek out greater psychological meaning in
the particular means of the gag are welcome to do so... but let us
salute the people responsible for the final cuts for the magnificent
result on the screen!


[I decided mention of shooting the swordsman is a spoiler on the
grounds that the device needs surprise.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 23:46:30-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Miscellany from previous digests

Finally, regarding Indiana Jones' sub escape:  One other capability of
modern submarines which I believe was not available prior to WWII is
sonar (although I am not sure about the actual date of introduction of
same).  This makes it most emphatically NOT a good idea to run around
for any length of time without lookouts being posted, especially if
your main goal in having a submarine is to go from point A to point B
without being detected, or even to have some hope of getting from
point A to anywhere close to point B.  Also, one would think that any
even moderately intelligent Nazi submarine commander would be
concerned about an immediate attempt to retrieve the Ark as he was
leaving the vicinity of the Bantu Wind, and would therefore maintain a
watch just to prevent such an occurrence.  Of course, in Hollywood,
almost all Nazis are stupid, so I guess this is just a continuation of
type...

                                        Bill Laubenheimer

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1981 (Wednesday) 0947-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: *SPOILER* RotLA:  Sun and Swim

I am pursuing this subject to a watery grave, but if the sub -merged,
we can only assume that Indiana Jones was inside.

Following Indy's lack of desire, ability, or need to plan ahead--how
do you get inside a submarine that's about to dive?  You knock.  What
do you do with the idiot who opens the door to investigate?  You
either (1) beat him up, take his uniform, throw him overboard, and
assume his identity, knowing nothing about German submarines and
possibly nothing about German, and probably looking very unlike the
clean-shaven military man; or (2) jump through the door while he isn't
looking, and either pull stunt (1) on someone else, or hide in a very
cramped submarine and manage to get out again without being seen.

Perhaps they even filmed such a scene; but of course they found it to
be even less believable than the rest of the film, and so it was cut.

A question, this time about the opening jungle scene:  Did I see
correctly, that a trap was activated by interrupting a beam of
sunlight?  What is such a device doing in a South American jungle in
1936?  Did such things exist at all back then?  The whole scene seems
to have been heavily influenced by \The Wild Wild West/, where 19th
century villains used giant tuning forks to destroy people's houses.

                                        -- Sam

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #43
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 AUG 1981 0654-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #43
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 18 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:
        SF Books - Poetess story & 2001 sequel & Cujo review,
 SF Movies - Spielberg interview & Upcoming showings & "Heavy Metal",
                       SF Topics - Immortality,
                 Spoiler - "The Empire Strikes Back"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 August 1981 20:50-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Poetess story

The story is "For the Sake of Grace" and appears in World's Best
Science Fiction, 1970.  It is indeed by Suzette Hayden Elgin.

-- Charles

------------------------------


Date: 16 Aug 1981 0442-EDT
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-20C>
Subject: More on 2010

        The following appears in the September issue of Discover:
        (a popularized science magazine by Time, Inc.)
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Space Odyssey (cont.)
        He prophesied the communications satellite more than thirty
ago, and he has spun scores of futuristic tales, but in predicting his
own future, Arthur C. Clarke has been less than Delphic.  Four years
ago he vowed that he was through with writing books, and he repeated
that claim last spring (Discover, May).  Now Clarke has emerged from
his self-imposed semi-retirement to begin a sequel to his most famous
work, 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY.  Its tentative title:  2010: A SPACE
ODYSSEY II.  Says Clarke, "I honestly believed that I could give up
writing.  But this sequel kept festering in my subconscious mind, and
it wouldn't let me alone."
        Clarke will not reveal details of the plot, except that it
will feature astronaut David Bowman and crew members of the space
station in 2001.  "Usually I let a book create itself as it goes
along, according to its own whims," he says.  "But for the first time
in my life, I know exactly what's going to happen.  The idea has been
gestating for fifteen years.  Now it's ready to be born."
        Clarke admits that one persuasive factor in the impending
birth was a seven-figure offer from Del Rey, the science-fiction
division of Ballantine Books.  "They'll send it to me in installments.
It should make a tidy bit of extra income."  But he wants no part of
the proposed movie that Stanley Kubrick, who collaborated with him on
2001, has expressed an interest in.  Says Clarke, "I'll never get
involved with a movie again.  One of the problems with 2001 was that
it was a movie first and a book second.  I think I'll do much better
this time just thinking about the words.  What they want to do with it
afterwards is none of my business, really."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Doesn't it seem out of character for Kubrick to be interested
in a sequel of ANY sort?  Or could someone just have ASSUMED that, of
course Mr. Kubrick MUST be interested, and asked questions based on
that preconception?  (After seeing what Kubrick did to The Shining, I
couln't blame Mr. Clarke for not wanting to know anything about the
possible film disposition-but perhaps he has a morbid curiosity.)
(This was not meant as a criticism of The Shining as a piece of
cinema, but merely an observation of the very great difference in the
feel of the movie, compared to the book.  There must be a special hell
that authors consign ruthless producers and directors to.)
        Anyway, I hope he thinks up a better title.

                                Gene Hastings at CMU-20C

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 81 16:36-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: sequel to 2001, book & film

Don't bother.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1981 1232-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Review: 'Cujo'

By CHRISTOPHER LEHMANN-HAUPT
c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service

    CUJO. By Stephen King. 319 pages. Viking. $13.95.

    Everything begins so simply in Stephen King's latest novel,
"Cujo," perhaps the cruelest, most disturbing tale of horror he's
written yet.  One day this 200-pound St. Bernard named Cujo is chasing
a rabbit in back of his owner's house, which happens to lie outside a
small town in Maine.
    Cujo is a good and gentle animal, but what dog can resist a rabbit
racing by?  So Cujo chases the rabbit into a hole in the side of a
meadow, which turns out to be the entrance to a small limestone cave
full of rabid bats.  When Cujo tries to follow the rabbit into the
hole, he gets bitten by one of the rabid bats.  Pretty soon, Cujo
isn't feeling so good.  Pretty soon, Cujo is mad.
    But things get complicated fast in King's imagination.  Things get
awful.  Before you know it, we have the following situation:  the
members of the family that own Cujo are away or otherwise indisposed.
A mother and her 4-year-old boy, Donna and Tad Trenton, are trapped in
a Ford Pinto that is stuck in the driveway of Cujo's house.  The
weather is stiflingly hot.  The Pinto's battery is dead.  Nobody knows
that Donna and her boy are there.  Except Cujo.
    "And a moment later Cujo's foam-covered, twisted face popped up
outside her window, only inches away, like a horror movie monster that
has decided to give the audience the ultimate thrill by coming right
out of the screen.  She could see his huge, heavy teeth," King writes.
"Those red, bleary eyes stared into hers.  The dog's muzzle looked as
if it had been badly lathered with shaving cream that had been left to
dry.  Cujo was grinning at her."
    Now, normally I hate this sort of exercise in terror:  the feeling
of claustrophobia and helplessness; the exhausting knowledge that
there are hundreds of pages to go, and the victims will not escape
until nearly the last one; the sense of dependency on the author's
manipulations - instead of stimulating, I find these wearisome and
depressing.
    But King, whose more recent novels are "The Stand," "The Dead
Zone" and "Firestarter," has thrown something extra into the usual
mixture.  For one thing, he does it all so skillfully, bringing his
Maine locale to life with pungent bucolic language and fleshing out
his characters far beyond the apparent requirements of his story.
    For another thing, he throws in certain plot perversities.  Near
the start of the book, for example, there's a switch of scene to Iowa
City, where a little girl suddenly appears to be vomiting vast amounts
of blood.  Back in Maine, there's a fellow Donna took briefly as a
lover, who isn't reacting altogether sanely to her decision to end the
affair.
    In the closet of Tad's room, there's a monster who may not be
entirely imaginary and who seems to have some connection with Frank
Dodd, the psychopathic killer-policeman who erupted in King's earlier
"The Dead Zone."  Donna recalls that Cujo was also the name of one of
the members of a Liberation Army.  And she has this feeling that Cujo
the dog knows something.
    The upshot of all this is that you begin after a while to get this
uneasy, ugly feeling that King is trying to do more than harmlessly
thrill you.  He's not playing by the usual rules.  The cavalry may not
arrive in time.  The boy may be snatched by the Erlkonig.
    In the end, I don't really know what King is trying to say.  It
may be that there are simply dark places in the world from which blind
evil emanates - the hole in the side of the meadow where the rabid
bats are sleeping, the darkness in Tad's closet from which the musty
smell is coming.  Surely, Donna isn't being punished for her marital
transgression; after all, she understands it, ends it and purges
herself of it as effectively as anyone has done in recent fiction.  Or
maybe there's nothing more to the problem of evil in "Cujo" than what
King says about his writing:  "I like to scare people, and people like
to be scared.  That's what I'm there to do.  I like to go for the
jugular."
    He certainly hits the jugular with "Cujo."  But it's a nasty book
that leaves you feeling uneasy as well as afraid.  It also leaves you
with the feeling that none of its evil has been purged.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 1342-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: 2nd half of Spielberg interview

Ooops...  so much for good intentions; I fell asleep before Cavett
came on Friday night.  Anybody else catch the second portion of the
Spielberg interview and care to describe it briefly?

Yawn, Will

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 0951-EDT
From: Larry Rosenstein <LSR at MIT-XX>
Subject: Dark Star plus in Boston

People in the Boston area can also catch Dark Star at the Coolidge
Corner Theatre in Brookline on Sept 2 and 3.  As if that wasn't
enough, they are showing it with Hardware Wars, and as part of a
double feature with Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.  According to my
schedule, Dark Star and Hardware Wars are at 8:00pm, and AotKT at 6:15
and 9:55pm.

Coolidge Corner is also showing other SF movies in the coming weeks,
including Forbidden Planet, 2001, and A Boy and His Dog.  (Not wanting
to unleash more meta-discussions, I won't mention any of the fine
non-SF movies they are showing.)

Last but not least, Channel 4 in Boston is showing Plan 9 from Outer
Space (reputed to be one of the all-time worst movies) at 3:05am
Thursday Morning (8/20).  (This is according to the Sunday Globe TV
listings, which is not known for their complete accuracy.)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 0648-EDT
From: Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan)
Subject: Scene from Heavy Metal in an alternate universe:

Hanover Fisk:  Polucci's review of Heavy Metal is one of the most fair
and honest reviews I've ever read.  He does a service to the entire
movie industry ... UNLESS YOU COUNT HIS PRESCHOOL PIRATING RING!  He
has a keen sense for recognizing fine art ... UNLESS YOU CONSIDER THAT
HE WOULD HAVE HELPED TO CUT OFF VAN GOGH'S EAR!  His skill at
appreciating fine movies is only surpassed by ... GIVE ME A BREAK!
GIVE ME A BREAK!  HANGING'S TOO GOOD FOR HIM!  BURNING'S TOO GOOD FOR
HIM!  HE SHOULD BE TORN INTO LITTLE ITTY BITTY PIECES AND BURIED
ALIVE!!!  (Music `Reach Out' starts and aforementioned reviewer is
torn into little itty bitty pieces by Hanover Fisk.)

PS:  I agree, Tarna would have been a much stronger character if she
just punted and took a long vacation in Hawaii.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 14:39 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: immortality

I think that immortality would make such a significant difference in
human psychology that it's next to impossible for us mortals to make
any accurate predictions about its effects.  But just to offer a
counter-proposal, consider Niven's attitude toward the immortality
conferred by "boosterspice" in his Known Space series.  It's Niven's
opinion that, after a few hundred years of life, a person would not
get more cautious, but more bored.  The person would have a
well-developed sense of self-preservation, to be sure, but out of
sheer boredom would take greater and greater chances just for the
thrill, until finally something went wrong and the person's several
hundred years' experience wasn't enough protection.  I don't claim
that Niven is right, but I don't see any way to determine whether he
is except by conducting the experiment.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 17 August 1981 19:25-EDT
From: Owen T. Anderson <OTA at MIT-MC>
Subject: Immortality

The impact immortality on society:  that's a subject for SF-Lovers and
SF-Writers too.  Most SF writers do not seem to share Redford's
opinion of what immortality would do to human society.  Perhaps this
is because it makes for uninteresting stories, but perhaps not.  Both
Niven and Heinlein have used (near) immortality in their stories.  In
both cases Boredom was a driving force behind the heroes.  Consider
(Louis or Carlos) Wu who would take off in his ship when he could no
longer stand the sight of a human face (maybe this isn't precisely
boredom but it's clearly related).  Or Lazarus' forays to new and
exciting planets.

It seems reasonable to assume that any reasonably intelligent person
who was a hundred or more and still physically and mentally able might
easily be bored stiff at doing the same thing over and over.  Also
they might be fairly good at a variety of money making activities.
Thus money would probably not be a problem.  It seems that taking risk
would be the only thing to relieve the boredom.

This brings up the question:  "What is the point of Human
civilization?"  For each individual this becomes:  "What is the point
of life?"  Well I can hardly see that very many people would conclude
that the "POINT" was to stay alive at all costs as long as possible.
I, at least, couldn't face an eternity of minimal risk existence.  At
some point in most mortals' lives there is a change from looking
forward to looking backwards, which fundamentally changes their
attitudes to life.  This psychology is likely to be much different for
someone who had hundreds of hears to look forward to.

Well, anyway, I doubt if stultification will be a problem, but I'd
love to find out personally!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 81 15:43-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: immortality

Immortality in SF is one of my favorite topics; unfortunately few (if
any) writers have approached it with the intention of fully exploring
the implications of immortality on one's sanity.  We are just given
immortals or extremely long-lived people, often with powers of some
kind, who manipulate the "normal" people around them, flee from the
"evil" ones who want to trap them, and similar situations.

For an amusing example of what immortality might do to someone, read
the last 30 or so pages of Gunn's THE IMMORTALS.  I found the book
rather frantic and not terribly interesting other than the medical-
view of society, but these last few pages are rather humorous.

Does anyone know of a book in which immortality is explored rather
than exploited merely for other reasons (chase, puppets, etc.)?
Nicholl's encyclopedia is somewhat downbeat on the current state of
immortality in SF.  He indicates that practically no one has really
dealt with the meat of immortality in a convincing manner and how it
would affect someone possessing it.  I'd sure like to find a book that
did.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/18/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses "The
Empire Strikes Back", revealing . . . well, readers who have not seen
this movie may wish not to read it.

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1981 15:35 edt
From: Gubbins.4506i14TK at RADC-Multics
Subject: TESB --- The other

     In the book \The Empire Strikes Back/ in the passage describing
the bounty hunter Boba Fett, it mentions the fact that his uniform is
like those used in the Clone Wars.  If he is a clone of Luke, Luke's
father (and/or Vader), then he might be the 'other' that Yoda spoke
of.  Fett did fire a clean shot at Luke, and missed (a warning
shot???!!!) and he does have our hero Han.  With clones about,
anything is possible.  By the way, Sir Alec did do the image of the
emperor.  Clones are people two.              Til next time ---

                                                    Gern

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #44
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 AUG 1981 0646-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #44
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Wed, 19 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:
                        SF Books - Superbaby,
                    Physics Today - Stasis query,
            SF Topics - Immortality & Video film editing,
     SF Movies - Mass market movies & "Heavy Metal" & Lois Lane,
                       Spoiler - "Superman II"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1981 1547-PDT (Tuesday)
From: Jeff at UCLA-ATS (Jeff Schaffer)
Subject: Superbaby

Forwarded from Andy Felong at Ampex-ELS

The book SUPERBABY that I remember was written by Felix Mendelson Jr.
but had a muscular man inside a beaker on the cover (paperback).  I
believe I still have the book somewhere.  The plot was pretty much as
described - I remember a happy ending, though.

------------------------------

Date: 18 August 1981 1348-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Seshashayee Murthy <Sesh.Murthy at CMU-10A>
Subject: Stasis fields

Is a stasis field physically possible?  i.e. does it violate any of
the laws of physics?                    Sesh

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1981 1016-PDT
From: John Redford <icl.redford at SU-SCORE>
Subject: immortality

Well, you know, people are already effectively immortal by the
standards of the animal kingdom.  To a dog or a cat with a lifespan of
ten or so years a human is an ageless god.  Elephants live as long as
people, but they live slower too.  Isaac Asimov once wrote a piece
where he compared species based on the number of heartbeats in their
lifetimes, that being an indicator of how fast their metabolism ran.
Almost all mammals get about a billion heartbeats.  The major
exception is homo sapiens with about four billion.
    The point of mentioning this is that we already have enough time
to do just about anything we're capable of.  If you can't do something
within forty or fifty years you probably can't do it.  If the only
reason for extending your lifetime is to cling to your precious ego
then another hundred years won't be enough, or another thousand.
Nothing will come to matter to you but your own survival.
    Niven wrote a story about this.  A human sets out towards the
center of galactic civilization in search of immortality.  In a bar he
meets an alien on the same quest.  The alien has consulted all the
doctors, visited all the reputed Fountains of Youth, and even tried
all the varieties of hyperspace drives in an attempt to hold back
time.  He has spent his entire life and almost all of his fortune in
the search.  The human asks him how long he's been looking.  The alien
replies "Twelve thousand years", and the human decides that maybe
there are better ways to spend one's time.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1981 19:25 PDT
From: Wedekind.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Immortality

        R.C.W. Ettinger wrote a nonfiction book about 10 years ago
called MAN INTO SUPERMAN.  It's an invitation to immortality.  At
times he is childishly overzealous and the morality he professes is
questionable but his enthusiasm and imagination are something else.
One neat thing about Ettinger is his refusal to equivocate:  we are
each of us, to the extent that we doubt the practicality of
immortality, arrogant; to the extent that we are bored by its
prospect, terribly unimaginative; to the extent that we quesion its
propriety, simply insane.  After thus winning us over he makes a
thought-provoking case for these points.
        The subject of immortality is a focus for an incredible amount
of hazy and irrational thinking.  Ettinger demolishes a lot of it and
adds a bit of his own.  After reading this book I'm much less inclined
to make categorical statements on the subject, but I've got to admit
it that given the choice it seems silly to turn out the lights when
the party's just begun..  I'd be interested in hearing the reactions
of anyone else on this one.

                                        Jerry

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1981 14:09:03-PDT
From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley
Subject: Re: Steve Platts' comments about video editing.

        This is really nothing new in film making.  It is not
tremendously popular yet among feature film-makers, but it is quite
frequently used in tv and documentary film making, especially in
Europe.  In fact, there are several European standards for recording
film edge numbers (the little numbers printed in the sprocket hole
area, indicating frame number) on magnetic tape while a film is being
made.  These devices (I believe Aaton has recently released a large
system) then enable the edge numbers to be sent to the lab via a
telephone-modem link, giving the lab instructions on which takes to
print, etc.  These same numbers can then be put on the alternate sound
track of video tapes, so after the film is edited using video
techniques (which are really Very advanced), the edge numbers tell the
editor exactly which piece of film to splice where.
        This is a situation where manufacturers have come out with all
this advanced hardware, but are having trouble persuading
conservative-minded film makers to buy.
        I don't remember all the details of these systems, if anyone
is interested, I can dig out my back issues of American
Cinematographer and look it up.

                                                        george

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 81 15:50-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: the infantilizing of films

(Enter sarcasm mode)
Don't tell me you expected intelligence in mass-market films.
What a preposterous idea!
(Leave sarcasm mode)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 1715-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: films down the tubes

Yeah.  I guess it WAS a silly idea.  I must be slipping.  Never
mind...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1981 09:53 PDT
From: Hamachi at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Heavy Metal Pan (pun intended)

If you have not yet seen Heavy Metal, don't.  Did I hear someone say
that the animation was at times as good as the best Disney?  Not a
chance.  Is there a plot?  The writers should have taken the Charles
Atlas course:  it is charitable to say that it is weak.

The Heavy Metal movie is like a comic book, only not as good.  I came
away with the impression that some competent (but not great)
production people made a movie far below their abilities.  Maybe they
were on drugs; I saw quite a few members of the audience lighting up
joints.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 1049-PDT
From: Benjamin Britt <BRITT at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Superman III

"Today" on NBC reported this morning that Margot Kidder will not be
appearing in Superman III.  The official word is that there isn't any
further story in the Superman-Lois Lane relationship but rumor is that
she's being dumped for strongly supporting Richard Donner, the
ex-director fired during the filming of Superman II.
Ben

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/19/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It mentions an
important plot detail of "Superman II".  Readers who have not seen
this movie may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1981 09:24 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #39

Re:  SUPE-II.  Personally, I thought it was dreary and excessively
sentimental, devoting way too much time to the relationship with Lois
(who in comic life never found him out).  They obviously felt
obligated to resolve the hints of this from the first movie.

My recommendation would be to not see it.

        --      Larry           --

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #45
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 AUG 1981 0726-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #45
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Thu, 19 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:
            SF Radio - Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
              SF TV - Twilight Zone immortality episode,
                  SF Topics - Sour note on sarcasm,
                    SF Books - Immortality stories
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 August 1981 16:48 edt
From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Hitchhikers Schedule

        Does anyone know the current schedule for Radio Broadcasts of
HGttG in the Baltimore, Maryland area?  (Station, Time, and Episode
Number they are currently up to)
        Thanks,
        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1981 10:28 PDT
From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Immortality

I think I saw it on TV, in black & white (a Twilight Zone-type show
perhaps?).  Immortality was achieved and there were millions of senior
citizens.  The story seemd to center on a kind of a "home", because
there was a dance every night.  All the people were old, terribly
tired, and bored.  They were dying to die (forgive me).  I can't
remember how it ended...anybody remember or recognize this one...?

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1981 06:19-EDT
From: Oded Anoaf Feingold <OAF at MIT-MC>
Subject: the infantilizing of ** MAILING LISTS **

May I quote?

      Date: 17 Aug 81 15:50-PDT
      From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
      Re: the infantilizing of films

              (Enter sarcasm mode)
      Don't tell me you expected intelligence in mass-market films.
      What a preposterous idea!
              (Leave sarcasm mode)

Hey, cut the misuse of Pournelle-memorial ASCII modes!  It is totally
inappropriate to use sarcasm mode that way.  You are stating simple
truth, not inverting it to make a rhetorical point (where's my goddam
funknwagnalls - I'll find the word yet).  Here, I'll give you a
salubrious example.

        <Enter Sarcasm Mode>
Luckily, picking interminable nits out of unintelligent mass-market
films is the highest activity our civilization can aspire to.  Cheers.
(And bon appetit.)
        <Leave Sarcasm Moded>

Oded

------------------------------

Date: 08/19/81 1046-EDT
From: j. baldassini <GNC at MIT-LL>
Subject: Immortality

     A new work dealing with the philosophical implications of
 immortality is "A Fond Farewell to Dying", by Sid Logsdon (published
 by Pocket Books under the TIMESCAPE logo; I have yet to be
 disappointed by any of their offerings).  The story takes place 200
 years in the future, after a nuclear holocaust has wiped out all of
 the current technological societies, leaving India as the dominant
 world power.  A major percentage of the people still alive are
 sterile (80% ?), so a principal focus of research is biology.  The
 immortality developed by this society consists of a cloned replica of
 the candidate grown in a sensory deprivation tank; the candidate's
 memories are retrieved under hypnosis, stored on magnetic tape, and
 played into the clone.  The original body of the candidate is
 destroyed, and the clone is awakened.  The author generates conflict
 among his major characters through the device of religious conflict;
 "atman vs. continuity of consciousness" (continuity of conciousness
 is my own phrase, but it serves to describe the beliefs of the
 protagonist regarding his immortality technique).  Except for what I
 consider an inconclusive conclusion, a decent story.

 Joe Baldassini

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1981 11:55:59-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Immortality in SF

   Damon Knight had an excellent story on this some decades ago; it
was originally published as "Dio" and reprinted under a different
title in THREE NOVELS (actually three Knight novellas, the others
being "Rule Golden" and "Natural State") and in the 5-piece Knight
collection that came out in paperback 1-2 years ago.
   The premise is borrowed from a biology theory of the time that
immortality would be possible for an organism that never reached
"adulthood"--i.e. if you're still growing you're not aging.  This led
to a rather frivolous society; when one person accidentally falls
through the barrier, reaches adulthood, and begins aging he becomes
almost an alien to his former friends---and a remarkable artist.  Good
story.

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1981 0547-EDT (Thursday)
From: Thomas Rodeheffer at CMU-10A (C410TR30)
Subject: Immortality

In his short story "El Inmortal" ("The Immortal"), Jorge Luis Borges
presents one view of what immortality might be like.  The story is a
first-person narrative of a Roman Centurion in Egypt who searched for
and found a river "in the west, at the end of the world" whose waters
give immortality.  The narration then proceeds through his discovery
of what life as an immortal in the society of other immortals is like.

Probably the best encapsulation for the view of immortality this story
presents is given in the quotation with which it opens:

        Salomon saith.  There is no new thing upon the earth.  So that
        as Plato had an imagination, that all knowledge was but
        remembrance; so Salomon giveth his sentence, that all novelty
        is but oblivion.
                        Francis Bacon: Essays LVIII

Because an immortal lives forever, reasons the story, all things
happen to him.  His experience encompasses all that is good and all
that is bad.  Thus, in the plane of the infinite, all things balance
and all immortals are the same as all other immortals:  both god and
demon, hero and villain, everybody and nobody; and no individual
action is of any consequence.  The Immortals had long since renounced
all interaction with the physical world, preferring instead to live in
thought.

This idea of an infinite balance or equilibrium of all things is a
recurring theme of Borges, treated also in various essays in his work
"Historia de la Eternidad" ("History of Eternity").  "El Inmortal" is
published in the collection "El Aleph", by Emece Editores, S.A.,
Buenos Aires, 1957, which is available in English translation as "The
Aleph and Other Stories", published by Bantam Books, Inc.

                Tom Rodeheffer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #46
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 AUG 1981 1735-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #46
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Fri, 21 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:
                   Administrivia - Date correction,
           SF Books - Web of Angels & The Eye of the Ocean,
                         SF Topics - Sarcasm,
   SF Radio - Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy & Star Wars tapes,
                      SF Movies - "2001" sequel,
                          Spoiler - "Zardoz"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, August 21, 1981, 2:32 AM
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: Thursday was the 20th

The digest header on Issue 45 of SFL Volume 4 claimed that Thursday
was the 19th of August, when actually it was the 20th.  With tender
loving care, I typed the wrong date in by hand.  If this error might
make problems for anybody, they should take appropriate action.

Happy reading,
   Mike Peeler

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1981 1710-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Immortality vs. extended life

Is there any difference between immortality and "merely" substantially
extended lifetimes?  Ford's WEB OF ANGELS (which is one of the very
neatest books I've read in a long time -- I'm 3/4 of the way through
it) has a kind of extended lifetime where you take a treatment that
multiplies your life by extending your aging process from 12 to 20
times, depending on some random variables in your own body.  The lives
lived by the extended-lifetime people are altogether richer, fuller
than our own 1-multiplier lives.  Combine that with The Web, and you
have a truly intriguing story.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 20 Aug 1981 11:05-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: The Eye of the Ocean

        Apropos of absolutely nothing, I would like to recommend The
Eye of the Ocean, a first novel (presumably) by Hilbert Schenk.  This
person has had a previous collection of exceptionally good stories
(Wave Rider), all having to do with the sea.  This book is no
exception, taking place during the height of the New England whaling
days of the last century.  This "SF Historical" is light on SF, but
heavy on the history.  I have rarely read a book with more sense of
another place and time.  It is obvious that M{r,s} Schenk has
forgotten more about sailing than I will ever know.  The ambiguity in
the form of address is due to the fact that I cannot believe the name
is real.  Does anyone out there know anything about this author?

        This book is so well-written that it is sure to spark a
controversy.  Can anything this peripherally involved with SF or
fantasy be legally nominated for a Hugo, no matter how it is marketed?
The book is out under the Timescape logo.

        Again, for those who prefer good writing to fancy hardware, do
not miss this book.  The description of the Underground Railroad is
horrifying.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1981 (Thursday) 1434-EST
From: KENDALL at HARV-10
Subject: Sarcasm

Re: Oded's objection to McLure's use of Sarcasm Mode.

Sarcasm can mean simple vitriol as well as "inverting [truth] to make
a rhetorical point" in a vitriolic way.

                                -- Sam

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1981 09:40 PDT
From: Meyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Hithchikers Guide Schedule

Does anyone know when and where it is playing in California,
specifically the Bay Area?
                        Thx,
                                Marc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1981 1154-EDT
From: JONATHAN OSTROWSKY AT GALAXY
Reply-to: "JONATHAN OSTROWSKY AT GALAXY in care of" <Young at Market>
Subject: Message from Michael Tardiff (KERMIT::TARDIFF) for SFL

If anyone has a tape of the last episode (#13) of the NPR radio series
of STAR WARS, my brother and I would be eager to make some sort of
arrangement to obtain a copy (we have other radio plays to trade,
etc.).  We have the first twelve episodes of the series, but are short
the conclusion, and we're beginning to despair of ever seeing our
collection completed.  Even though it's not the best series ever to
come out of the radio, six hours of radio all leading up to a final
half-hour we don't have is pretty useless...
--Michael J. Tardiff

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1981 10:50:38 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ralph Muha <muha at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: 2001 Sequel

                Born-again, berserk and bloodthirsty,
                Bowman is back and out for revenge!
                His first stop: the HAL 9000 plant ...


                     Universal Pictures presents

           Kier Dullea    William Sylvester   Jamie Lee Curtis

                                  in

                          Arthur C. Clarke's

           Friday, the 2013th: The Urbana Chainsaw Massacre


                 [You won't need acid for this one!]

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/21/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It gives away part
of the ending of "Zardoz".  Readers who have not seen this movie may
wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 08/20/81 12:52:57
From: LPH@MIT-MC
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #45 (spoiler for zardoz)

the film where people were waiting to die is probably ZARDOZ.
spoiling it, they do get to die in the end, at the hands of Sean
Connery and his crew, and Charlotte Rampling and he go off and have a
son before they die of old age.  an odd ending...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #47
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 AUG 1981 1405-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #47
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 22 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Busby's DEMU trilogy & Immortality & Stephen King,
            SF Movies - Pulp movies & "Heavy Metal" rave,
                Spoiler - "Raiders" & "Butch Cassidy"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 81 15:21-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Busby's DEMU trilogy

Timescape recently published the trilogy.  I managed to get through
the first 100 pages, after which it went downhill very rapidly.  It
starts out with a man imprisoned by aliens who are studying him for
unknown reasons.  The description of this encounter is very
entertaining.  After that, the pits.  It decays into hokey space opera
which isn't even written very well.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1981 13:17:35-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
In real life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Continuity of consciousness and immortality

Several authors have used the idea that achieving continuity of
consciousness is tantamount to immortality.  The idea is proposed to
Lazarus Long in Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"; doesn't work at all
well in his "I Will Fear No Myra Breckenridge"; is a major factor in
several of John Varley's short stories, notably "The Phantom of
Kansas" and "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" (both in the "Persistence
of Vision" collection -- highly recommended); and dominates Zelazny's
"Lord of Light".  I'm pretty sure there are many others, though I
can't think of any other stories off-hand.  Oh yes -- Arthur Clarke's
"The City and the Stars".  (Speaking of whom -- if he's given up
writing books, what is he doing?  Anyone know?)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1981 17:28 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Immortality.

I must disagree with Redford's claim that "If you can't do something
within forty or fifty years you probably can't do it".  There are many
things that not only take many years to master (playing a musical
instrument, for example), but which do not ever totally cease
providing new areas for development.
Even if one were to accept this contention, there are such an infinite
number of things to be interested in that at 40 or so years a crack,
you could vary your occupation quite a lot without getting too bored.
This was Lazarus Long's solution to his long life.

I for one don't expect to have time enough in my life to do
"everything I'm capable of".  I wish I could, but realistically, being
a novelist/computer programmer/musician(composer/pianist/drummer/etc)/
father/politician/lawyer/mathmetician/historian/electronic engineer/
soccer player/champeen roller skater/archaeologist/physicist/actor/
screen writer/beer chugging champ/computer gamester is quite a
complicated deal, and I doubt that I could do it in just 50 years.
And those are just at the top of the list.  To list the number of
things I believe I am capable of would easily take me beyond 40 or 50
years worth of work (since one of them includes being a concert
musician, which has taken me 20 years so far and I'm not there yet).

In sum, maybe I could do any one of the things I would like and am
capable of, but "everything"?

        --      Larry           --

------------------------------

Date: 08/22/81 01:56:27
From: FFM@MIT-MC
Subject: Pulp Movies, Stephen King, Immortality and ramblings

Americans movie makers have never been really known for their
subtleness.  There has always been as far as I can tell a heavy
emphasis on things EVERYONE can relate too and for these reasons most
American movies are "adrenaline jerkers".  Action and danger are
things that most everyone can relate too, sex is probably another one,
but for reasons of having screwed-up 'morals' this must be done by
implication.  If one attempts to have people think, not only is it
harder to do, but there are good chances that you will be accused of
boring some people and even the thought of this strikes fear into the
hearts of movie producers.

This is indeed a "safe formula" look at the lines for "FOR YOUR EYES
ONLY" and "Star Trek ...the motion picture".  It's the old rejoinder to
all questions of being more meaningful and philosophical, which is:
"IT WORKS, DOESN'T IT?!!" ...

Thus usually the movie creative and interesting movies in a
philosophical vein come from without of the Hollywood system.  There
are notable exceptions like "The Day the Earth Stood Still" which I
think was a standard movie as far as production goes.  However "Dark
Star" was produced by someone whose previous production was "Son of
Blob".  It had some wonderful hacks in it, like the 029 Keypunch
(!!!gasp giggle!!! laugh and roll round on the floor) as a computer
console.  It seemed like the people involved had a really open and
free mind about what they were doing.  And the messages they received
from the "government" and the crockish hardware are very 'realistic'.

Have there been any good subtle and philosophical SF movies since
"Solaris"?  ...I am afraid we are heading into an "Adventures of
Bletch the Barbarian!!!" or heaven forbid "The Grossmen of Gor" era.
I hope not.  Maybe someone will do a movie of "Left Hand of Darkness"
or "The Dispossessed" or "Eyes of Amber" or something else really
winning.  Note those novel(la)(s) have adventure in them but a whole
lot more in addition.

Stephen King reminds me of someone who went on a bad trip and NEVER
got off.  He seems to have this great desire to fuck around with
people's minds in a malicious way.  Though he is definitely a skilled
writer, he does tend to give one a bad taste in the mouth/mind.  How
he inhabits such a mind-frame and remains a sane human is beyond me.

As far as extended life is concerned, that in my opinion is an
interesting idea.  The idea that a person has one thing to do in
(h)is(er) 40-50 years of adult life seems very shorthsighted.  A
person might want to do several things with their life.  For example
if one decides to have a child (or children) one's life gets very
fixed in some ways for 20+ years.  It would be nice to be able to live
several ways or do several things in a major way during one's life,
instead of having "one thing" to do with one's life and if you don't
seem to get it come to pass, then you lose etc.  It would certainly
enrich the lives and take the pressure off of individuals, whether it
will cause stagnation and what to do about it is an open question.

I feel I have rambled and pontificated enuff for one evening..

Have fun
Sends Steve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1981 1618-EDT
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: 'Heady Metalrial'

  Alright, I think that its about time that someone gave the "Heavy
Metal" film a just review, and that person is me!  This is definitely
the best movie to be released this summer, so if someone tells you
otherwise whip out your PGMP and blow his/her brains out.  "Heavy
Metal" has within it that very rare quality which 'Cinefantastique'
terms "a sense of wonder".  While viewing this film a definite sense
of magic invades your senses and all thoughts of your girlfriend's
strange habit of eating the postman are quickly forgotten.  It is
riveting, fascinating and energetic.  And yes, it's also sexist; but
as far as I'm concerned anyone who can't take a joke should be turned
into a jar of Crisco and sent to Malcolm McDowell.
  So my sacred advice to those of you poor deviants who haven't seen
this motion picture yet is this:  do whatever you must do, but SEE
this film.  It's more fun than a carton full of Hawkwind albums and
definitely more entertaining than 'Raiders', 'Dragonslayer', 'FYEO',
etc.  See ya in the future...
                       > Steve Sherman <

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/22/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!
Double spoiler!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It gives away events
of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid."
Readers who have not seen these movies may wish to read no further.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 20 Aug 1981 17:05-PDT
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: RotLA / BC&SK  (double spoiler)

I see I.J.'s direct action against the Arabic Sword Master as an
example of the hero extricating himself from his difficulties by
circumventing the rules of the game through an appeal to meta-rules;
it's exciting and surprising to the audience because we were expecting
him to stay within the ordinary rules of chivalry.

A great example takes place in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
(BC&SK), where Harvey Logan, contesting Butch's leadership of the
gang, challenges him to a knife fight and goes into his fighting
crouch.  Butch saunters toward him, stalling the interested onlookers
with "... not until me and Harvey get the rules straight."  Logan
relaxes and responds "Rules in a knife fight?  No rules!" and Butch
terminates the fight with the most devastating groin kick yet filmed.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #48
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 AUG 1981 0025-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #48
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI

SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 24 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No missing digest,
     SF Books - Known Space reading list & Bradbury story found,
                       SF Topics - Immortality,
   SF TV - Fast Forward & Dr. Who, SF Radio - Hitch-hiker's Guide,
           SF Movies - Snakes in "Raiders" & "Heavy Metal",
                 Spoiler - "The Empire Strikes Back"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: No missing digest

    SF-Lovers Digest did not come out Sunday, due to lack of
submissions.  This issue, V4 #48, numbers right after Saturday's.

Happy reading,
   Mike Peeler

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 1352-EDT
From: PAUL WINALSKI at METOO
Reply-to: "PAUL WINALSKI at METOO in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Known Space reading list
         (reply to Steven Clark's query in SFL V4 #42)

I was all set to give you a complete chronology, but, TANJit, I loaned
out several of my Niven books.  This is from memory, and so I may be
off on a few details.  Still, it should get you started on your
explanantion of Known Space.

Known Space books:

        Tales of Known Space            (story collection)
        The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton    (story collection)
        Protector                       (novelized stories)
        World of Ptavvs                 (novel)
        A Gift from Earth               (novel)
        Neutron Star                    (story collection)
        Ringworld                       (novel)
        The Ringworld Engineers         (novel)

The above books are arranged roughly according to the chronology of
Known Space, except for "Tales of Known Space" and "Neutron Star."
Both of these collections contain stories spanning a considerable part
of the chronology.  In fact, ToKS contains both the first and last
(chronologically, according to the Known Space future history) stories
in the series.
If you want to read the stories in "chronological" order, your best
bet is to get "Tales of Known Space" first.  In the back of the book
is a Known Space time line showing where the individual stories fit
in.

Happy reading!
                                        Paul Winalski

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 14:46:41-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihuxl!jej in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: the "mystery" Bradbury story

I found a biography of Bradbury yesterday which includes a
recognizable quote from the story that I've been looking for.  The
story is called "The Wilderness," and it *is* in *The Martian
Chronicles*--it's just not in the paperback version.  Said bio also
indicates that it's in a collection called *The Golden Apples of the
Sun*, though--thank goodness for Bradbury's placing of stories in
several collections for once.

                                James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 1052-PDT
From: John Redford <icl.redford at SU-SCORE>
Subject: immortality and stagnation

Would extended lifetimes produce stagnation?  Well, we can ask if
people do or don't tend to mentally stiffen up with age.  Some don't.
Von Neumann did his best work in his fifties, just before he died.
But almost everyone else does.  It's a cliche that scientists and
mathematicians are most creative when they're young, but I think
history shows that it's true.  It's also conceded that people get more
conservative politically as they get older; witness the spate of
where-are-they-now articles about the Woodstock generation.  These
shifts have little to do with physical aging, it's just the dead
weight of experience that holds people down.
    So some people might benefit having from a little more time, but
most don't even use the time they have very well.  What then is the
harm in letting people live longer?  Just this:  the proportion of
young reformists goes down and that of old conservatives goes up.  If
lifetimes can be extended indefinitely then eventually there are no
young people.  The culture then either decays into senility or is
swept away by a newer, more vigorous one.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 (Sunday) 1851-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: old age and immortality

...right now, our society is oriented towards a fixed-schedule life.
School until 18 (or 22, or for grad students, 40), followed by a 30-40
year "career", then retirement.  Already, there is heavily documented
the phenomenon of "middle-age restlessness", where a worker gets tired
of what s/he's doing at around age 45-55.  By then it is too late;
with perhaps 10 years needed to reeducate to the point of competence
in another field, the limited effective lifespan of a second career
prohibits following this course of action.
  How, then, does a longer lifespan (let's assume merely a doubling to
150 years; that's not too far outside of medicine by many opinions)
affect the individual?  It gives him/her the time for 3 full careers.
It affects relations with children -- after all, when Mom'n'Pop are
130 and you're only 110, they become more peers than parents.  You can
reasonably expect to have 7 generations at family gatherings -- that's
great^4-grandchildren.  A sense of continuity within a family may be
enhanced; it may just exponentially raise the intra-family squabbling.
  This assumes, of course, that the family will continue to exist.
Heinlein proposes altered family structures -- short-term marriages
(would you tire of your mate, or after 50-100 years, would you become
more of a single unit than two people; more inseparable?) -- also,
more fluid "extended families".  The family evolved as a survival
mechanism; would it really be necessary in the future, when childhood
represents a much smaller portion of the lifespan?
  Education -- as people live longer, career-switching becomes a
reality.  It would become more common for someone to reenter schools
for reeducation at late ages (or at what we now consider to be late
ages).  Likewise, if I put off my education for 10 or 20 years after
the minimal "age" for this (end of High School?), who cares?  I'm no
longer throwing valuable years away.  (Important statement there.)
Colleges (and retraining schools -- you're not going to need to go
thru "standard courses" for retraining -- will a resume read "B.S.
1990 MIT fine arts, Cert. in:  Math, 2024; Psychology, 2035;
Engineering, 2070; Physics, 2095; Psychology, 2103 (my, how things
change...)"...)  Oh yes, colleges would become more homogeneous
age-wise.  How would this culture-mixing affect the generation gap?

  ...my, I've run on.  Most of these are minor points, but they do get
(I hope) to some of the essence of the amount of cultural changes
which could occur from a simple doubling of the lifespan.
  Later this week:
    Old age and big business -- how does this affect the long-term
plans (or even the definition of "long-term") of industry?
    What happened the last time the lifespan was doubled?

                -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 15:14:57-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: SFL comments

I have been away from SFL for some time, so here are some backed-up
comments from the past few weeks:

Kevin Burnett:
What you saw on Fast Forward was probably "Telidon", the Canadian
Videotex system, rather than Datapac, which is Bell Canada's Telenet
type packet switched network:  Fast Forward is produced by the Ontario
Educational Communications Authority in Toronto.  This is the Ontario
version of PBS, but it is government funded.

Meyer:
I am afraid that somebody WAS running the Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy here in the Bay Area, but episode 12 was aired last monday
night (at 6:30).  It was on both KQED-FM (Public station) and another
station.  They start running "The Hobbit" tomorrow.  The cost of HGttG
to a non-profit station is ridiculously cheap - $5/episode, so you
should have little trouble convincing some station.  (Perhaps a local
college one) to run it.

Dr. Who:
I am a great fan of yours, and watch you twice a day.  I am however, a
little uncertain of the chronology I have seen some episodes in.  The
last episode I think I have seen is the final chapter of "The Invasion
of Time" (to be aired this Wednesday on KTEH in San Jose at 6pm) where
the Dr. leaves Leela on Galifrea (sp?) and heads off on his own again
with a new K-9?  Are there episodes after this?  Have I seen them and
not recognized that they are that?  What is being planned?

See you at Denvention -Brad

------------------------------

Date: 22 August 1981 17:18-EDT
From: Oded Anoaf Feingold <OAF at MIT-MC>
Subject: Snakes in RotLA

I have already flamed about abuse of snake identities in ROTLA.  Did
the producer mention how many of the snakes were in fact poisonous -
(my estimate is *ONE* defanged hooded cobra).  Must have been fun for
the herpetologist/curator on the job - (s)he was likely rather busy
hauling animated spaghetti around.  With the number of little bites
THAT would provoke (done barehanded, anyway) I could imagine being
rather itchy at the end of the day.

Oded

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 1981 at 1809-CDT
From: clyde at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Heavy Metal

        It's nice to see that this misbegotten flick has some
enthusiasts -- it is nice to have a balance of opinions.  But on that
note, let me add to the negative side of the ledger.

        Heavy Metal is a fine example of excessive mediocrity.  It is
really a series of vignettes strung together by a flaccid premise.
Some of the vignettes are interesting in themselves, (I did like 'Soft
Landing', and 'So Beautiful But So Dangerous' -- despite its misnomer
title), but the whole simply does not tie together.

        If the creators were looking for changing moods and
disorienting the audience, they succeed admirably.  Unfortunately, the
overall theme must be compelling enough to keep the audience
interested while disorienting them, and Heavy Metal blows this badly.

        The animation had nothing in particular to recommend it,
though there were some excellent tracking shots in the final segment.
As per content, I like seeing large-breasted goddesses running around
starkers, but eventually even that wears thin (I prefer my goddesses
in the flesh).

        If you get a chance to see it for dollar day or a drive-in, by
all means see it (take some chemicals along).  But as long as it is
going for first-run prices, go see 'Raiders' again.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 1853-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Heavy Metal reviewers: request

I have a desperate request to make of anyone who reviews the Heavy
Metal movie in the future.  Please add a phrase that indicates whether
you a) have ever read the magazine, and b) if you have, how you feel
about the magazine.  This way I have some basis for interpreting your
opinion.  (P.S. I am a charter subscriber to the mag--Yes, I like it.)

        Mike

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/23/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They discuss "The
Empire Strikes Back" and the possible future developments in the "Star
Wars" saga.  Readers who have not seen these movies may wish not to
read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1981 15:14:57-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: the "other"

Gubbins:
I have it from a source close to the Lucas People that the "other"
mentioned by Yoda is a young person, perhaps a woman, but not yet a
major character in the Star Wars saga.

-Brad

------------------------------

Date: 23 August 1981 04:37-EDT
From: "Patrick J. Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: "Cloning" around in TESB

  I just saw Empire again tonight, and it definitely was the voice and
looks of Obi-Wan who was the emperor.
    It is possible that the Clone Wars were started when clones were
made of the Jedi knights, and the clones decided that they wished to
maintain an existence all their own, but couldn't as long as the
originals were still around, so they conspired with the "Dark" side of
the Force to do them in.
  If this were the case, then Obi-Wan did NOT lie to Luke in STAR WARS
when he told Luke that Vader had killed his father.  It also could
stand to reason that Vader did not lie to Luke when he said that he
WAS luke's father, for he may have been cloned from Luke's father
after Luke had been conceived!
  I disagree, however, that Boba Fett could be a clone of Luke.
  I have another question of my own:  If Yoda is the teacher of the
"Good" side of the Force, is there a clone of Yoda who is the master
of the "Dark" side?  If not, who taught Vader, et al how to fully use
the "Dark" side?
  Boy do I feel like a clone...
--INSANE

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #49
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 AUG 1981 0715-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #49
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 25 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:
             SF TV - Nova & Day After Trinity & Dr. Who,
         SF Books - Left Hand of Darkness & Lathe of Heaven,
             SF Movies - "American Werewolf in London" &
                "Empire Strikes Back" & "Heavy Metal",
                       SF Topics - Immortality
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 0638-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI (Don)
Subject: NOVA and Day after Trinity (DC area)

For those of you in the DC area, NOVA will be on channels 22 and 26 on
Tuesday (8/25) at 9:00.  This episode will be "Resolution on Saturn",
an update on Voyager I's '79 exploration of Saturn.

In addition, on Wednesday (8/26) channel 26 will be showing "The Day
After  Trinity"  at 9:15.   This  is a  documentary on  J. Robert
Oppenheimer's role in the creation of the A-bomb and his subsequent
treatment by the Government.  For those of you who have never seen
this, I cannot recommend it too highly.

I think this is membership week, so the times could get off.

Don

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 24 Aug 1981 12:14-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Dr. Who

        In England, The Dr. has picked up a female Time Lord as his
travelling companion.  The great advantage to this is that they got to
pull the same trick as they have with The Dr. - when the woman playing
the role was changed, the character underwent regeneration.

        I haven't seen any of these episodes, but I'm looking forward
to them.

------------------------------

Date: 23 August 1981 2248-EDT (Sunday)
From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A (C410SC60)
Subject: The Left Hand of Darkness

Someone said something to the effect, "Why doesn't someone make a
movie of x, y, or The Left Hand of Darkness?".   Well, unless I'm
getting older faster than I thought, it was a movie of LHoD I saw on
public TV about 6 months or a year ago.  It's one of the best movies
I've ever seen.  Just in case I've got the wrong title, it was by
Ursula K. LeGuin and (being obscure to avoid a spoiler) it had The
William Faber Institute of <dream>ology in it.

I think it was made for tv, although that wasn't entirely clear.  It
was highly acclaimed by the public tv people.  It certainly was worthy
of that acclaim, too.  Getting back to "Why doesn't someone make a
movie like x, y, or z?", they do occasionally.  But for some reason
those movies are almost always destined for obscurity.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 81 2:48-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: movie on PBS

The movie on PBS last year was Le Guin's LATHE OF HEAVEN with Bruce
Davison of WILLARD fame.  I read the book after seeing the film and
was pleased with it.  Much more so than Le Guin's other books which I
can't stomach; she ponders the reality vs. illusion question which
P.K. Dick has examined so well.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 16:50:38-PDT
From: CSVAX.swensen at Berkeley
Subject: An American Werewolf in London

        I don't like horror films in general, mind you; they don't
scare me, and only rarely startle me, so take this review accordingly.
        The monster looks reasonably fierce, although not terribly
scary.  There are some fairly good special effects, in particular the
transformation from a mild-mannered anti-hero to the bad werewolf.
The girl is very pretty, and seems to enjoy sex with our anti-hero,
and she doesn't  even get  wasted in  the end.   However, she  is
ineffectual in finding any cure for her boyfriend (she is a nurse),
other than giving physical consolation while he is human.
        Overall,  the  film  lacks  credibility:   no  scientific
explanation is given for the existence of these bad creatures (other
than the "forces of evil" messing with the world), nor is there the
element of fantasy which might make us want to believe (perhaps as
exists in Excalibur).   The high  points are  the expertly  faked
transformations, the dream sequences of our anti-hero in the hospital
(very violent and bizarre), and the nudity (both female and male).  I
almost forgot; there is a scene in a train with a bunch of
punk-rockers.
        I guess it is  worth $4.00, although  don't expect to  be
enthralled.
                                John Swensen

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 at 0003-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE EMPEROR'S FACE (& CLOTHES) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In SF-LOVERS 4, issue 43, Gern states--

     By the way, Sir Alec did do the image of the emperor.

This is contrary to anything I have read, and as THE Penultimate SW
(Star Wars) Fan, my reading has been extensive.  The face was reported
to be basically that  of an elderly  California woman, with  some
portion -- probably the  odd eye-sockets -- of  an ape or  monkey
superimposed.

Examining it closely, I see no resemblance to Guinness' other than
agedness, even  taking  the bearded/non-bearded  difference  into
consideration.

It seems to me that it is not the structure of the face which evokes
the image of Obi-Wan.  The similarity lies in their being two aged
faces surrounded  by HOODS.   Had the  Emperor's image  NOT  been
associated with the hood, I seriously doubt that suspicions of some
relationship between the Emperor and Obi-Wan would have arisen.

Now, the use of the hood MAY have been intentional, either as a clue
that some relationship exists, or to mislead.  However, when  the
\other/ use of a hood is taken into consideration, it does not seem
particularly likely.  Princess Leia, remember, has her hood up only
when involved with the message given R2D2 for Obi-Wan.  This had not
been originally planned, but was necessitated by the quality of the
"holographic" image.  And our only view of the Emperor is likewise a
"holographic projection".

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 1157-EDT
From: NIGEL CONLIFFE AT VAXWRK
Reply-to: "NIGEL CONLIFFE AT VAXWRK in care of" <Young at MARKET>
Subject: Heavy Metal

 Well, jumping in with both feet.....

 I was pleasantly surprised at the "Heavy Metal" movie.  It seemed
quite well done and was ENTERTAINING (remember that word,  sports
fans?).  I quite liked the changes in style from each of the sections;
much like reading a collection of short stories.  Even the  music
(which I was dreading; not being into "New Wave") seemed appropriate
in quality, temperament and volume.

 Go see it...it's not astoundingly great but then neither was Raiders
of the Lost Ark, and people liked that!

 Two comments spring to mind though.  Firstly, these large-breasted
readily exposed young ladies  were obviously auditioning for  the
backboards of any popular pinball machine!!!

 And, more seriously, have you noticed how little animation seems to
have advanced since Disney did Snow White???

Nigel

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 0445-EDT
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: Heavy Metal [oh no, not another one!]

I actually enjoyed it, mostly for the fantasy.  I have seen a few
random issues of the magazine, which helps quite a bit to understand
where the ideas came from.  I agree with Clyde, bring the chemicals
next time, it's that kind of flick.

I had a bit of trouble understanding the power turnover at the end...
where the green thing was supposedly telling a story in the past but
the hatchet lady seemed to act in realtime.  [I did miss perhaps the
first 5 minutes of the thing tho.]

Anyhow I will willingly go see it again...

_Hobbit

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 2310-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: heavy metal poisoning

      I went to see HM the day it opened with a gang of cronies from
the animation firm we all work  for.  Several of the cronies  had
actually worked on HM.  After I had seen it, I wrote a long review,
and timed my "send" command  to appear just milliseconds AFTER  a
computer crash.  I finally got up the energy again.
    To start with, let me explain my prejudices.  If HM does well, it
may spark interest in making other animated features, meaning more
jobs for me.  Fortunately,  HM made a profit  before it was  even
released, due to adroit salesmanship on the part of agents to cable
companies, etc.
     Also, being in animation myself, there are times in the film when
I'd say to myself; "I wouldn't have done it that way."  However, I
believe that most of the time THEY shouldn't have done it that way
either -- it wasn't a case of judgmental choice -- just incredibly
disappointing, a piecemealshambles of cheap, shoddy animation and
writing.
     A little background.  To save money, HM was shot in twos This
means two frames per cell setup, or twelve pieces of a motion per
second.  This is  the same  method used in  the Saturday  morning
cartoons, which is why THEY  look so terrible.  Disney and  other
high grade animation is shot in ones, or 24 fps, and the incredibly
jerky Japanes animation is often shot in fours.
     In addition to cheapness, there were several definite mistakes in
the film, and in animation there is NO excuse for not doing a bad take
over.  The music was good, but there wasn't enough of it, and the
dialogue was rotten, and there was two much of that.  And the art was
rotten -- I'm sorry, but it was.  The backgrounds were pretty, but
backgrounds are simply paintings -- it is the animation that counts.
The greater the detail, the harder to animate, and if you put  40
character lines in Harry Canyon (Huh, huh, get it? Hunh?) 's face,
chances are they are going to get confused in a head turn and flicker
all over the place, which they did.  Block shading works better, and
looks better too.  And  the cruddy lacing  they tied the  stories
together with was a shame.   I'd rather have seen seven  separate
vignettes.
     I would, however,  like to commend  two of the  bits --  "So
Beautiful and So Dangerous" and "Captain Sternn" with "Den" a runner
up.  Flawed tho these may have been, at least they weren't rotoscoped.
The only reason to animate is to do the impossible and make it seem
real.  If you simply trace live actors -- what's the purpose?  And the
sexist overtones were offensive even to me, and I am a regular viewer
of exploitation flicks.
     Anyway, go see the film.  The music's good, when you can hear it,
and remember, every ticket bought is a vote in favor of my having a
job next year.

     (By the way, not to rehash the fly all over again, but I went
back to see Raiders, and the fly is definitely real, and flies away.
There are also four flies crawling on Indy with the Bazooka, and one
on the belt buckle of the square-jawed Nazi.  It just must have been
an insect-ridden set.)

------------------------------

Date: 24 August 1981 0923-EDT
From: Jamie Radcliffe at CMU-10A
Subject: immortality and stagnation

John Redford isn't entirely accurate about job retraining.  First it
does not take ten years to retrain someone.  Partly because a person
who is being retrained already has some education but also because the
majority of jobs need only one-two years of experience, most of it can
be done on the job.  I saw a program on t.v. (I forget which network,
being in a motel at the time) in June about jobs which included a
section on job retraining.  The major focus of this was the Germans'
policy on government assisted retraining.  The government would pay
you your former salary to  retrain for a technical job.   Reduces
unemployment and increases the technical work force at the same time.

------------------------------

Date: 24 August 1981 0152-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: SFL 4/46 : immortality vs extention

Without having read "Web of Angels" it strikes me that there is a
difference between  immortality  and vastly  extended  lifetimes.
Lifetimes end eventually.  Be it 80 years long or 1600 years long, it
does end.  Immortality has an air of hopeless boredom about it:  you
will see everything so often that nothing will thrill you.  Knowing
that at some point, all will end saves one from a final hopelessness.

At least, that's what I have found.

                                                mitch

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 14:19 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: immortality and stagnation [SLF v4 #48]

You keep overlooking the main point.  Certainly, most people "tend to
mentally stiffen up with age".  But we have no reasonable basis for
deciding whether it is due to accumulated experience or due to the
feeling of eventual death approaching.  You might claim that it's not
reasonable that the reduction in remaining lifespan should have such
an affect, but consider this:  If you know  you have 50+ years to
adjust to a radical change made today, you might be more willing to
fight for that change, be it a change in politics or in scientific
dogma.  But if you expect to be dead within 10-20 years, you might not
want to spend your remaining lifetime trying to adjust to something
the effects of which you'll never get to see.

My point, which I tried to make in my previous note on this subject,
and which others have been touching on from various directions, is
that the effects of immortality would be so far-reaching that there is
no reasonable way for today's humans to know what the net result would
be.  Everything we currently think  we know about psychology  and
sociology goes down the tubes.  We can try to make guesses about what
the effects might  be, but  we must be  careful not  to draw  any
conclusions based on how mortal humans act.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 13:53 PDT
From: Wedekind.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Immortality and stagnation

<EnterFlameMode>  Part of the mental stiffening that John Redford
refers to may be due to how little is left, not how much has gone
before.  Just as a life-extended society would have proportionately
fewer youngsters it would have fewer oldsters (those with perhaps 20
years of deteriorating physical health to look forward to if things go
well) as a percentage of population.  How differently might 70-yr olds
act as a group if they had on average 70 yrs of physical youth ahead
of them?
        On the other hand, suppose we concede the point about mental
stiffening - then perhaps we've passed the break even point already,
and 60 years is the optimum average!
        <EnterFlameMode> In fact, many of the arguments marshalled on
behalf of the status quo in this discussion work just as well in favor
of a shorter life span, but no one advocates life truncation.  Why
not?  It would  be difficult,  but like  life extension  probably
achievable with sufficient effort; It would involve unnecessarily
early deaths for some individuals, but no more so than a decision not
to extend life, which for all its inaction is a decision nonetheless.
Maybe what we're exhibiting is an unhealthy tendency to be satisfied
with our lot in life, regardless.
        <ExitFlameMode>
        Or, maybe not.
<ExitFlameMode>
Whew.
                                        Jerry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 26-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #50
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 AUG 1981 1710-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #50
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI

*** EOOH ***
	  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #50
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 AUG 1981 1710-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #50
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Wed, 26 Aug 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:
                        SF Fandom - Coppercon,
            SF Books - Known Space & Books on immortality,
        SF Topics - Retraining immortals & Video still camera,
                  SF TV - Dr. Who & Krypton Factor,
    SF Movies - Hitch-hiker's Guide movie & "Day After Trinity" &
      "Raiders" inspiration & "Star Wars" actors & "Heavy Metal"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 August 1981 03:00 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Convention announcement

Sorry for the small amount of warning, but here it is:

Coppercon I, a small (we expect around 200 people) convention aimed at
those who need a break after the pressure-cooker that this Worldcon
promises to be.   Guests of honor are Marion Zimmer Bradley, Rose
Beetem, Ken St. Andre.  Toastmaster, Bruce  Dane.  Opens  Friday,
September 11 with a panel discussion by Marion Zimmer Bradley, Ken
St. Andre, and Evangeline Walton (among others) on the appeal of the
Arthurian mythos to today's society.   This will be followed by a
medieval fashion show and dances.  Also, a full weekend of the usual
convention activities:  huckster's room, art show, Regency dancing,
war games, video tapes, banquet, parties, etc.   The hotel is the
Howard Johnson's Caravan Inn, 3333 East VanBuren, Phoenix, AZ 85034.
Rooms are $25 single/$28 double.  Memberships are $12.50.  Contact
Hilde   at   (602) 942-0135   by   telephone   or   Paul Schauble
(Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics).

We also have a limited number of free memberships to people willing to
discuss or be interviewed on the subjects of artificial intelligence,
Voyager II results, or  something "unique" in space  exploration.
Please contact me beforehand.

                                Paul

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 07:00:56-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: "Known Space" chronology

In real life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

The collection "Tales of Known Space" has as an appendix a complete
listing of Niven's works to that point.  It lists each of his series,
and also has a timeline  for the Known Space stories.  If there's
sufficient interest, I'll key it in.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 10:28:06-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Immortality

   I'm appalled that I took this long to remember one of the more
detailed speculations on a basically immortal society:  Arthur C.
Clarke's THE CITY AND THE STARS (and I \taught/ this two years ago!).
For those of you who haven't read it (\\not// a spoiler), people come
out of the [memory banks] with mostly mature bodies and blank minds;
they acquire current social practices from surrogate parents for ca.
20 years, at the end of which time the memories of all their previous
"lives" come back and they do whatever amuses them for the next 1000
or so, until they decide it's time to filter their memories and go
back into the banks.  The city of Diaspar contains over a billion
people [stacked] in this fashion, each of whom gets out roughly every
100,000 years (Clarke doesn't say specifically but it is assumable
that the cycle is flexed so you don't keep meeting the same people
over and over); this has been going on for over a billion years. The
story's hero is someone who is told near the beginning of the book
that he won't experience the memory  flood because he has had  no
previous lives---he is in effect the first child in several tens of
millions of years.
   Clarke leaves out some important details---I would expect the flood
to be incredibly traumatic,  but he assumes  that it is  suitably
cushioned.  (Like most of his works, there's only a technical concern
for the emotional structure and impact of the devices he describes.
But he puts in many interesting ones.)  Sexism (or at least chivalry,
which is its institutionalization) is basically dead, as you might
expect in a society in which a computer is the only ruler and nobody
gets or bears children.  To keep the society stable everyone has a
built-in indisposition to question or investigate outside the city; to
keep it from stagnating there is a Jester who, every 50-100 years,
does something which might be simply an elaborate practical joke or
might involve a thorough assault on a currently-cherished belief.
(Khedron, the current Jester during the story, is one of my favorite
characters in SF.)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 0952-PDT
From: John Redford <icl.redford at SU-SCORE>
Subject: immortality books

For those who are interested here are some more books with immortality
as one of the main themes:

"The Farthest Shore" - Ursula K LeGuin - Last book in the Earthsea
  trilogy.  Ged the Archmage must find why magic is draining from the
  world.
"Pursuit of the Screamer" - Ansen Dibbel - A fine recent book by a
  newcomer.  Immortality here is achieved by recording one's memories
  and playing them back into a blank body.  Trouble is, this  one
  immortal keeps getting reincarnated as a six year old child and then
  hunted down and killed by planet's natives.
"The Heaven Makers" - Frank Herbert - Billion year old aliens enjoy
  playing with human mayflies.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 1055-PDT
From: BILLW at SRI-KL
Subject: Job retraining.

Oh come on now.  Admittedly some jobs will take less than 10 years to
retrain for.  Like if you decide to do hardware instead of software or
automobile construction rather than delivering mail.  But say you've
been a computer programmer for 30 years, and decide there isn't enough
public recognition and want to become a surgeon...  Chances are you
don't remember any courses you ever took anywhere having anything to
do with medicine, so you have 4 years of bio, plus med school, plus
internship...  and so on.   Anybody can retrain quickly from  one
trivial job to another, but with immortality you could take up several
PROFESSIONS, rather than just several jobs.  Also consider that there
are professions, mostly in the arts, that people spend a lifetime
with, and still don't feel that they have accomplished what they
wanted too, but if they only had a few more years...

50 years from now I think I'll take up poetry...

Bill W

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 15:10:27-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: video vs. film

In real life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Sony has just announced  a video still  camera.  Pictures can  be
displayed on a monitor, or they can be printed by a video picture
printer.  The reusable magnetic discs used in place of film will cost
about $2.50; the camera -- available about 2 years from now -- will go
for about $650.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 1803-EDT
From: WAFER::SEILER
Reply-to: "WAFER::SEILER in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Dr. Who Chronology

    This is a reply to Brad Templeton's question about whether there
are any Dr. Who episodes after "Invasion of Time."  The answer is:
yes and no.  Yes there are other episodes, some four or more years of
them.  No, they are not available in this country.  (If that makes you
want to move to Great Britain, then you're my kind of Dr. Who fan!)
(If anyone even suspects that my statement isn't true, I want to hear
about it).  By the way, the Doctor is still being played by Tom Baker-
there haven't been any regenerations recently.

    Now for a gripe/question.  Time-Life (the US distributor of Dr.
Who) takes each half hour episode and cuts seven or more minutes out
of it to provide commercial breaks.  Does anyone know if there's a way
for public stations to get the uncut version?  I cringe at the thought
that I'm missing 1/4 of every episode.

        Larry Seiler, Seiler@MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date:     25 August 1981 1824-edt
From:     Charles Fisher
Reply-To: Ronald B. Harvey  <RHarvey at MIT-Multics>
Subject:  Krypton Factor

I hope that no one is of the opinion that ABC is being particularly
creative with this show.  It has been showing on ITV in Britain for at
least the last three years that I know of, and I believe that it has
been running for several years longer.  The format is about the same,
except that I don't remember any video game being used.  Also the
prizes were considerably smaller - as I recall about 1000 quid ($2400)
for the overall winner.

------------------------------

Date: 08/25/81 07:50:32
From: PCR at MIT-MC
Subject: hitchhiker's guide movie?

I have  been informed  by  a friend  that  there is  presently  a
Hitchhiker's Guide movie released in England.  Can anybody out there
verify this, and if it's true, does anybody know if/when it's going to
make it to the states?

                                                 ...phil

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 0947-PDT
From: Bob Knight <ADMIN.KNIGHT at SU-SCORE>
Subject: The Day After Trinity

For those of you who haven't seen this documentary, I highly recommend
it.  It presents an unbiased account of the events of WW II and after.

     I used to live in Socorro, New Mexico (attending, and later,
working at, New Mexico Tech).  Socorro is about 50-60 miles away from
Trinity Site.  I got to know some of the locals when I lived there,
and they thought the ammunition dump explanation was a bunch of bull
when the Army came out with it - the thing was too damned bright!!!
See one of the interviews near the end of the show (I won't give it
away).

     At any rate, enjoy.
Bob

------------------------------

Date: 25 August 1981 12:15 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: "Raiders" Inspiration

Lucasberg has gone around saying "Raiders" was inspired by old movie
serials he watched on TV as a kid.  This statement is probably a red
herring, for there is a much closer source.  Anybody remember it?

Hint 1: You have to be within spitting distance of midlife crisis to
have encountered it first-hand.

Hint 2: Lucasberg placed an explicit tipoff in the very first scene.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 at 2133-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE EMPEROR = GUINESS?  NO WAY! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 In SF-LOVERS 4, #48, "INSANE" asserts--

      I just saw Empire again tonight, and it definitely was
      the voice and looks of Obi-Wan who was the emperor.

 I've already accounted for the admitted resemblance-- elderly faces
 surrounded by hoods-- and  proposed 3 hypotheses  as to why  the
 similarity was incorporated into the film:

    1) It's a clue to some relationship (familial, cloning, or
       whatever) between Obi-Wan and the Emperor which will be
       revealed in future segments of the saga.
    2) It's a red herring.
    3) The hood had the same function of facilitating the
       "hologram" shots that Leia's did.

 I lean toward the 3rd, but the other 2 are equally viable.  What
 \cannot/ be agreed with are that the FACE and VOICE of the Emperor
 are Obi-Wan's.  At the top of the face, those simian eye-sockets
 certainly aren't.  And at the bottom, one jaw is bearded and the
 other is not.  What is left to account for the resemblance?  Simply
 the agedness and the hood.

 As for the voice, I might argue from a background in Speech (both
 pathology and drama) that the similarity lies in the accent, the
 "professional stage quality", and its overlay of a timbre of age.
 However, somewhere-- possibly in the credits themselves-- I've seen
 the name of the actor who did the Emperor's voice.  I don't have my
 SW collection here at hand, but if I recall rightly, it was Clive
 Revell.
------------------------------

Date: 08/26/81 04:34:42
From: FFM at MIT-MC
Subject: YAHMR--Yet another Heavy Metal Review

Yes! INDEED IT'S ANOTHER HEAVY METAL REVIEW!!!  Indeed, I went and saw
"Heavy Metal" and I was in many ways pleasantly surprised and in other
ways disappointed.  I was pleasantly surprised that they tried to do
interesting, pretty much non-purified fantasy stuff.  They actually
tried to be creative and not rehash 'successful formulas'.

The sad thing is that it could have been much better had they tried
harder and/or had more time to do both research and put more effort
into  thinking/feeling creatively.   Also a little more effort at
artistic expression would have payed off immensely.  It seems that it
suffered from the rushed and not well thought out "disease".

Some of the scenes which characters flew over seemed a bit flat and
painted but they could have been fixed up with just the addition of a
few more lines in the right places plus completion.  Few of the humans
suffered from this problem so we know they could do it.

However what they tried to do was truly admirable and there scenes
that were truly beautiful.  They actually attempted to create modern
legends.  This is in spite of the fact that the central theme seemed
to be similar to Babylonian legend about the forces of evil who once
ruled the world and how a hero arose to do battle with them and threw
them behind a wall.  They try to break thru the wall every so often
and there are fears they might once again rule the world.  However the
rewrite(?) of this as a continuous cycle on which to base legends
seems like a really winning idea.

The better episodes <<Taarna>>, <<Den>> and parts of <<B-17>> should
have been expanded were in my warped estimation pretty good.  They did
actually create the ambiance of a magical world where interesting
things happen and all is not what it seems and in which one navigates
by intuition and gut feelings.  The sense of color was quite pleasant
and the women were interesting if monolithically attractive, however I
have no objections to well endowed women, it's just there a lots of
other flavours  of women  that  are attractive.   More  character
development would have been a real win.  Taarna would have been really
nice if she was more like a real Amazon.  It would have also been nice
if some woman well endowed or not saved some guy from some awful fate.

It is definitely worth seeing and has lots of really nice stuff and
effects in it but for the nth time it could have been so much better.
It is not the "Yellow Submarine" of SF animation.

I am hoping someone will do a sequel that is well thought/felt out and
better executed. At least it seems to me they are on the right track,
they don't try to desexualize legends or other stupid things.

Have fun
Sends Steve

P.S. I occasionally read Heavy Metal the mag and think it is pretty
good with nice artwork and interesting stories but it could stand a
bit more thought/feeling.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #51
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 AUG 1981 1830-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #51
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 29 Aug 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:
                 Administrivia - No missing digests,
                        SF Fandom - SFL party,
                SF Books - THE CLEWISTON TEST review,
                     SF Radio - "Star Wars" tape,
                 SF TV - "Dr. Who" & "Fast Forward",
      SF Movies - Who's the Emperor? & "Wolfen" & "Heavy Metal",
                 SF Topics - SF games & Old immortals
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1981 0000-PDP
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: No missing digests - hardware problems

    MIT-AI has been up and down due to hardware problems, preventing
transmission of the digest since Wednesday.  This digest numbers V4
#51, right after Wednesday's.

Happy reading,
   Mike Peeler

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 0357-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: SFL.PARTY at Denvention

Announcing...

    SF-Lovers will hold an SFL party at the World Science Fiction
Convention in Denver on Friday night, September 4th.  All SFL'ers are
invited, but to maintain the low profile of SFL, we cannot open the
party to the rest of SF faaandom.  To RSVP, please send your name and
electronic address to  SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at  MIT-AI, and  mention
Denvention.  I will send further details to you individually rather
than through the digest.

    Paul Schauble has volunteered his room to our cause.  If you'd
like to jump on the bandwagon, please don't hesitate to volunteer to
bring party fixin's or to make your services available to us.  In
particular, I'd like one person to keep track of what's been
volunteered, so we don't have 150 jars of pickles and nothing else
(not that I have anything against pickles, mind you).

                        And now...  Happy reading!

                                         Mike Peeler

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1981 1711-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Review of THE CLEWISTON TEST

Review of Kate Wilhelm's THE CLEWISTON TEST (Pocket Books, 1977).

    Just finished THE CLEWISTON TEST, and wanted to be sure that those
who might enjoy it know about it.  I didn't see much play on it in SF
reviews.  The SF is minimal, but it is there.

    It is the story of a brilliant biologist Ph.D.  who marries
another, merely competent biologist.  The two become a very successful
research team for a pharmaceutical firm.  They have been working on a
project for a number of years that is designed to produce a drug that
reduces pain by working directly on the nerves, using much the same
mechanism that causes people to have different threshholds of pain.
This is the SF - the drug and its effects.  The rest is just good
writing.

    There are a number of very good plot items.  The brilliant one is
the woman, and the competent one is a man.  Wilhelm is nicely
sensitive to the dramatic aspects of this situation, but keeps it in
perspective.  There is a fine interweaving pair of plot lines that
start at the beginning but are not clear to the reader until much of
the way through.  The climax is exciting, if a bit ambiguous--if
you're looking for "they all lived happily ever after," you will be
disappointed.

    The darts thrown at Big Science Administrators are right on
target.  They are easy to dislike and yet are not stick figures.  And
they do get it in the end.

    I've tried to avoid spoilers because a good part of the "good
read" aspect of this book is discovering what happens, and the science
is reasonably important to that discovery.  But it is a quiet book,
and with a few loud exceptions entertains in a very civilized way.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1981 15:42:33-PDT
From: menlo70!zehntel!steve at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!zehntel!steve, care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: npr starwars conclusion

( mainly for Jonathan Ostrowski the Galactican )
Send a blank cassette to my associate:

    Doug Raymond
    Plantronics/Zehntel
    2625 Shadelands Drive
    Walnut Creek, CA  94598

and he'll send you the conclusion you're looking for.
(decvax!sytekvax!zehntel!raymond is his usenet addr,
though it is hard to transmit cassette tapes via uucp)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1981 21:34:18-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Dr. Who.

Fans of the Dr. will be interested in knowing that new episodes with
his female Time Lord companion began this evening on KTEH in San Jose.
She is called Romana, and was forced upon him by 'the White Guardian'
during this episode.  She is more educated than the Dr., and more of a
Snob.   It will cause some interesting complications in the Dr.'s
character development.  Is this new stuff, or have I missed a lot?

------------------------------

Date: 5 March 1981 4:16 pm PST (Thursday)
From: Schwartz.PA at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Third Season for TV Series "Fast-Forward"

This TV series, produced by TV Ontario, is currently in the planning
stages for a third season of broadcast.  If you have input on topics
they should be covering, contact the producer:

    Jay Bobowicz
    TV Ontario
    c/o OECA
    2180 Young Street (I lost the rest of the address)
    (416) 484-2637

He is eager to receive input from interested parties.

Victor Schwartz

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1981 12:03:49-EDT
From: c-alayto at CCA-UNIX (Alexis Layton)
Subject: The Emperor in EMPIRE (Not a Spoiler?)

I seem to recall a credit for  the voice of the Emperor that  was
not Sir Alec.  I saw the film twice recently in the re-release.

                                        Alex

------------------------------

Date: 26 August 1981 06:03-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: A summer sleeper and Light Alloys

     With all the PR being spread about  "An American Werewolf in
London", a fine movie of the same genre is being ignored (partially
because of a bad distribution policy).  "Wolfen" is a marvelous summer
movie which doesn't depend entirely on "scare 'em" tactics, as most
horror films do.  In fact, a great deal of the movie is spent investi-
gating the people involved, instead of  "Hey Charlie, maybe a 2:1
mixture of dibromic acid will kill it" or "Bobby, I don't think you
should walk near that sludge...eeeeck!!".  In addition:

A) The monsters (super-intelligent flavored wolves) don't get killed
     (no, not even one).

B) The monsters are not gruesome (in fact, they are more attractive
     than most of their victims).

C) The wolves are kinda the good guys.

D) They get away with it.

        The acting is capable, and the effects modest but effective.
The movie does have it's share of blood and  gore, but only where
needed.  The only problem with the movie is where you may have to go
to see it.  Orion Pictures appears to have written it off as a lose,
so it is getting poor distribution.  In Boston, it was playing in a
small theater buried near Government Center.


<Flame onto boil>

        A note on "Heavy Metal".  I have read the magazine and think
it's fair.  I was intensely disappointed to see several stories from
the mag up on the screen, when I @i(know) they had no connection at
all to each other.  Movies that tie together several stories only work
in a few formats.   One way is like "The Illustrated Man" did it,
having a story-teller telling unconnected stories.  The other way is
to have a series of stories with a common connection (I remember a
movie about various cats and how they are smarter than their owners,
real fun).

        "Heavy Metal" tries to fall into the second category.
Unfortunately, since the original stories had nothing to do with each
other, neither do the sequences in the movie, so they are artificially
bound together.  Anyone who can tell me what "Captain Sternn" has to
do with any of the other stories will win an autographed roll of
toilet paper...


                                            <Flame back to low simmer>

                                                            James

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1981 1140-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Heavy Metal poisoning, sloppy animation

Your explanation of why so much of modern animation looks so terrible
(shot in twos instead of ones) answers a question I've long had, but
raises a few more.

Is it pure economics?  Does it cost twice as much to shoot a cartoon
in ones instead of twos?  If this is the case, how can Disney continue
to make profitable cartoons (The Fox and the Hound) that appear to be
shot in ones?

All I've seen of Heavy Metal are TV advertisements, which alone are
enough to prevent me from going to see the movie.  It seems that
nowadays more and more effort is being put into wonderful backgrounds
(which do not have to be animated) to compensate for sloppy animation,
which makes me furious!!!  Cheap, cheap, CHEAP!!!!  I still make it a
point to catch the old Warner Bros.  cartoons on Saturday mornings,
not only because the humor is (was) aimed at adult funnybones, but
because the animation does such a great job of mocking reality.  No
one comes to a screeching, vibrating halt like Bugs Bunny; no one
survives a fall down an Arizona canyon like Roadrunner's foil.  That
era of great animation seems to be gone forever, except for an
occasional hokey Disney offering, and it makes me sick that such a
wonderful art form is being choked by the cost of doing the job right,
if that's really the reason.  I can think of no other.  What are
animators paid these days?  (Probably not enough, right?) How much
does it cost to produce a minute of cartoon shot in twos?  What would
it cost to produce the same cartoon shot in ones?  Questions,
questions, questions....

One final question -- do you (or any other SF lovers) remember those
old Steve Canyon cartoons?   If I'm not  mistaken, they were  not
animated at all.  They looked to me like still drawings, only with
real human mouths superimposed over the still images of Steve and his
cronies.  A typical scene:  Steve's petrified head would speak through
an absurdly realistic mouth, then the action would switch to Steve's
copilot (same absurd mouth on a stiff face), then back to Steve --
nothing but alternating scenes of these ridiculous talking heads.  The
occasional "action" in these cartoons seemed to come from moving a
still image across the camera (a spaceship in flight, for example) or
shaking the camera (a takeoff or crash scene), with absolutely no real
animation.  True?

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1981 1422-EDT
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: SF and Fantasy games

  Being an avid fan of all things fantastic (this includes my girl-
friend) I thought that it might be apropos to raise the subject of Sf&
fantasy games.  If just one person reads this and becomes interested,
I'll have accomplished something!
  Game design has taken a radical  change in the last few  years.
Although the typical wargame is  still around, there has been  an
explosion of 'fun' games which take some of the strategies from the
older war simulations and transpose them into such colorful worlds as
Dune and Darkover.  The common denominator of all of these games is
that there are some REAL strategies involved, yet the play can still
remain interesting and most important, fun.
  Personal favorites are as follows:
  Dune-- Based on Herbert's book of the same name, players get the
chance to vie for the control of melange on this inhospitable planet.
Play remains quick and concise, and all the atmosphere of the novel
remains intact.
  Darkover-- From the MZB series of the same name; play revolves
around the attempt to control a 'key' tower.  This is a terrific game
but be forewarned:  you have to have some guts to play this one!  At
the start of the game each player writes a dreaded 'ghostwind', which
is an activity which everyone in the game can perform within 5-10
minutes.  The only limitation is that the action cannot be physically
harmful.  This means that you may have to run around the room naked
for a little while or go outside and ask the first female you see for
a date!  The possibilities for fun are endless....  (HE, HE, HE)
  Cosmic Encounter-- This one is kind of like poker in space!  Each
player is trying  to capture  5 bases  on an  enemy planet.   The
interesting feature of this one is that there are always different
Alien powers in play-- choose from an incredible array of 74 different
creatures (if you buy 6 expansion sets).
  These are only a few out of a large selection of games available.
If you're not familiar with any game of this type it would probably be
a good idea if you asked around and found a group of players who would
let you join in for a few games.  But if you can, definitely check out
some of these games--they're worth your time...        >Steve Sherman<

------------------------------

Date: 26 August 1981 1318-EDT
From: Gregg Podnar at CMU-10A
Subject: Senior Minds

Tha aged have seen much go by.  One gain is the ability to distinguish
that which is important and that which is not (perhaps the 'wisdom of
age').  This may be interpreted as conservativism.  But oldsters may
indeed be more conservative.  The status quo is a known quantity and
requires a minimum of further worrying.  Living in interesting times
(changing times) requires a person to continually find their place,
their mind-set.  Much effort.  But what is stagnation??  Consider a
group of very old Italian ladies (like my great grandmother was).
When in a group, they will share continued ideas and tricks for the
ultimate spaghetti sauce.  The consistency of the topic may be
considered stagnation but the interest and interchange is not.  Ben
Franklin, when he was very old slept most of the time in Congress.
One may consider him to be more stagnant than the young decision-
makers.  Not at all.  He knew these men must hash out their ideas to
convince themselves of the conclusion (of which he was already sure).
His input would only add confusion to their thinking processes.
Sleeping was an effective use of the time.  Not only do old folks see
their deaths and 'prepare', but their mobility limits them.  The
degradation of the body may cause stagnation of the mind.  But I am no
psychologist.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #52
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 AUG 1981 1802-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #52
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 30 Aug 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:
                  SF Topics - Voyager & Immortality,
       SF Books - Author query & Known Space guide & "Null-A",
       SF TV - "Dr. Who" & "Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy",
            SF Movies - "Dark Star" theme & Superman II &
        "Raiders" inspiration & "Empire Strikes Back" casting
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 August 1981 05:35-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: In the AP news, 26 Aug

[AP News Digest: Undated Evening]
    VOYAGER: Camera Platform Comes Unstuck

    PASADENA, Calif. - Voyager 2's camera platform, jammed shortly
after the ship sailed past  Saturn, apparently came unstuck  late
Wednesday, although engineers said they still didn't know what the
problem was and if it's really solved.  Slug PM-Voyager, developing.
Laserphotos LA1,2,3,4.

    Probably transient glitchitis.  Was it really worth the risk of
flying near the rings?  Could they have avoided it and still kept on
course?

------------------------------

Date: 27 August 1981 11:21-EDT
From: John Howard Palevich <TANG at MIT-AI>
Subject: Immortality

        Wouldn't the heat-death of the whole universe sort of preclude
(or postclude(?)) physical immortality?

        As I recall from Web of Angels, the problem with different
rates of aging was falling in love with someone who aged at a much
faster rate than you did -- they tended to die.

        Didn't Alfred Bester write a novel (serialized in Analog a few
years ago) which contained  characters who became immortal  after
suffering extrordinary pain? -- This device allowed for some stone-age
immortals, as well as an interresting cross-section of mankind.)

        I think  the average  life  expectancy for  15th  century
Switzerland was about 35 years.  Now the US figures are about 70,
right?  So by 2500 life expectancy hits 140, 3000->280, 3500->560, and
after that the average person is immortal.

        If we all REALLY wanted to live for ever, then we'd all be
med-techs or doctors, right?

------------------------------

Date: 08/27/81 1813-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Inspiration and aging

   Several days ago, in the discussion of immortality, John Redford
mentioned the cliche that scientists (especially physicists)  and
mathematicians do their most creative work when they're young.  Greg
Benford made a similar comment on this subject in "Timescape" his
latest book.

   One character, a physicist (which is also Bedford's profession),
says that you get "Flashes out of nowhere when you're young, and more
a sense of consolidation, layering things on, when you're older."
Could this be because of accumulated knowledge or the fact that for
the most part people take less chances as they grow older?

   Another observation made in the  book is that with  government
reduction of "pure"  science funding and  an emphasis on  applied
science, many  of the  younger, creative  minds lose  funding  to
experienced, but stagnated, proposal writers.  The base for future
applied science is lost.  I'm afraid  that this is all too  true.
Shades of Reagenomics.

                                                  Greg

------------------------------

Date: 27 August 1981 15:31-EDT
From: Michael S. Maiten <MSM at MIT-MC>
Subject: Author of title wanted.

A friend of mine would like to know the author of the book (short
story) titled "The Inspector General".
Thanks...
<MSM>

------------------------------

Date: 28 August 1981 04:26-EDT
From: David Vinayak Wallace <GUMBY at MIT-AI>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #50; living a while, etc.

icl.redford --did you say books with themes of immorality?
             damnright I'm interested...
Known Space:  The best guide I saw was in some random fanzine a couple
of years back.  If  you wait until after  WorldCon (i.e. back  to
Boston), I'll type it in.   It cross-referenced  Niven's works by
universe, main character, and chronology (both ficticious and real
(publish date)).  Furthermore, it had TWO reading guides:  one in
absolute chronological order (like Known Space, only up-to-date) and
one for those who didn't want to change books after every story but
didn't want to be confused.  Or speak to me at WorldCon and I might
remember who did it.

                --david

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 17:43:06-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: To spoil or not to spoil

Two of my favorite SF novels (the Null-A books by Van Vogt) deal with
two concepts that have recently been discussed in the digest.  The
problem is, to mention which concepts gives away most of the books.
Therefore, at the risk of ridicule (those books were about THAT?) I
will let fellow SFL-rs try to guess for a couple of issues.

BTW:  I believe the first book is ``The World of Null-A'' and the
second book has two titles:  ``The Players of Null-A'' and ``The Pawns
of Null-A''.

David Ungar

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 01:54:55-EDT
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: The Dr.

Having now seen the first two episodes of the new Dr. Who, here are
some notes:

There does appear to be a centralized quest in the show to tie the
series together.  I don't know if they will stick with 4 parters, or
go to 6 parters like "The Invasion of Time".  The new time  lord,
Romana, is assuming a more subservient role than I thought she would,
but it is hard to say what is to come.  The Dr. appears to have been
made up a  lot older  than he was  before.  Are  they planning  a
regeneration?  I hope not, for Tom Baker is probably the main reason I
watch the show.  Does  anybody know what  other stations on  this
continent are showing these new Dr. Who episodes aside from the San
Jose PBS station?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 17:09:41-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Dr. Who

In real life: Byron Howes at UNC - Chapel Hill

1) Public TV in North Carolina (it is all one PBS network here) airs
Dr. Who at 6:00 each evening.  Unfortunately it is the episodes cut
for commercials by TIME-LIFE, so they wind up filling the last five
minutes to the half-hour with short subjects.

2) The last episode I saw, which seemed fairly recent, had The Doctor
die and be regenerated (into another actor, I think.)  Unfortunately
the PBS station started showing old 1975 episodes after that so I have
not seen anything more  recent.  (I judge the  recency of Dr. Who
Episodes by the lead-in which is more "Star Wars" like in the most
recent episodes as opposed to the kaleidoscope effect in  earlier
episodes.)  The name of this episode was "Logopolis" and involved the
destruction of a society which was, itself, a gestalt  biological
computer holding off entropy in the universe.  The Doctor is killed
and regenerated in his attempt to prevent the total collapse of normal
space-time.  Is there anything more recent in this country?

------------------------------

Date: 27 August 1981 1326-EDT
From: Nigel Stephens at CMU-10A
Subject: Dr. Who & Hitch-hikers Guide 'movie'

A reply to 2 items in Thursday's digest (#50):

A new series of Dr. Who is soon to start on the BBC, however Tom Baker
has decided to leave  his role and  it is being  taken over by  a
young(ish) actor whose name is Peter Davidson (spelling may be wrong).
The only thing that you might have seen him in before is the  BBC
series "All Creatures Great and Small", if that has been shown over
here.  Also the Doctor has lost his female companion and gained a
young boy!

There is no movie of HGttG, however the BBC has made an excellent TV
series which follows the first radio series very closely.  Many of the
actors (or voices for Marvin etc.) are the same as those on the radio.
There is also a 2nd radio series of 5 or 6 episodes - I don't know if
that has been broadcast over here yet, but be sure not to miss both
this and the TV series when and if they do.

Nigel.

------------------------------

Date:     27 August 1981 0446-edt
From:     Ronald B. Harvey           <RHarvey at MIT-Multics>
Subject:  Hitch-Hiker's Guide Movie

I just had an extended conversation with some folks in the UK, and
they have not heard anything of a movie version of the Hitch-Hiker's
Guide to the Galaxy.  However, there is a tv series of 8 30-minute
episodes, and they say it is pretty faithful to the radio series.

Another friend of mine returned to the states from the UK bringing
cassette copies of aforementioned radio series, which I proceeded to
listen to many times.  When the NPR version started, I dutifully got
out MY tape recorder.  It turns out, upon close comparison, that NPR
(or somebody) has actually chopped a few minutes out of each episode
(I haven't bothered to measure, how much, yet).  The narration/book
info has been left intact, but some character dialogue has been
deleted - often in the middle of sentences.  It looks like they cut
out what they thought to be 'unnecessary'.
[Thanks also to John Otken (CC.Otken at UTEXAS-20), Dave (Sewhuk.HENR
at PARC-MAXC), and Chip Hitchcock (cjh at CCA-UNIX) for identifying
this "movie" as a TV series.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1981 1444-EDT
From: KRYPTN::GENTRY
Reply-to: "KRYPTN::GENTRY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Responses to SFL #4-39 (Dark Star and Superman II)

Re: Dark Star

     The following are, to the best of my hearing (due to the fact
that the singer hits some fairly low notes while almost whispering),
the lyrics to \BENSON, ARIZONA/.  If someone else can determine what
the missing words are, please let me know.

        BENSON, ARIZONA
        voice by Bill Taylor

        ___ ___ sun shine down,
        But I see only one.
        When I think I'm over you,
        I find I've just begun.
        The years move faster than the days,
        There's ___ ___ in the light,
        And how I miss those desert skies,
        Your cold clutch in the night.

CHORUS: Benson, Arizona,
        Blew warm wind through your hair.
        My body flies the galaxies,
        My heart longs to be there.
        Benson, Arizona.
        The same stars in the sky,
        But they seem so much kinder
        When we watch them, you and I.

        [CHORUS]

        Now the years pull us apart.
        I'm young and now you're old.
        But you're still in my heart,
        The memory won't grow cold.

        I dream of times and spaces
        I left far behind,
        But where we spent our last few days--
        Benson's on my mind.

        [CHORUS]

Re: Superman II comments

     At one of the SF conventions held in the Boston area recently
(past year or so), a gentleman by the name of Craig Miller discussed
the movie at a presentation.  In the question/answer period, he was
asked about the \strange/ powers which were exhibited by the villains
and his answer touched on the idea that the two movies might be placed
in an alternate universe which is not consistent with events "known"
by us all from the comics.

     You are correct in stating that the blue-screen technique is
used, but not correct about Reeve standing on tip-toe.  Reeve, and
others who had to fly, were placed in special body harnesses which
supported them while the cameras could move \completely/ around them.
This same technique was used for the O.J. Simpson rental-ad in which
he flies through the airport.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 10:50:56-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
To: Boebert.SCOMP at mit-multics
Subject: "Raiders" inspiration

   All right, stop being coy and tell us about it!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 2124-EDT
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-20C>
Subject: TESB--the emperor's voice.

        I saw TESB again a week or so ago.  There was indeed a credit
for the emperor's voice, and it wasn't Alec Guinness.  As for the
face, it did bear a superficial resemblance to Guinness, and the lack
of beard is only a minor problem--if nothing else that part could have
been filmed last, after a shave.  The muck around the eyes could have
been actual makeup, rather than some special effect (I thought it
looked like he was wearing barnacles).

                                        Gene

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 0800-EDT
From: MARTIN MINOW AT PHENIX
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW AT PHENIX in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Cloning around -- TESB

In a recent SFL, someone mentioned that the Emperor might be a clone
of Ben Kenobi.  That's funny, I though there was only one Kenobi.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 17:09:20-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: TESB

In real life: Byron Howes at UNC - Chapel Hill
Clive Revell was indeed the voice of the emperor.  While it may be
that the face is that of an anonymous woman, I cannot believe that the
resemblance to Alec Guinness is merely coincidental.  More likely,
given that Guinness' participation in TESB was virtual  (i.e. the
images of him were not filmed as part of TESB) that Lucas had to do
the best he could with what he had.  Clive Revell, incidentally, is an
Irish actor...as is Guinness.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-AUG  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #53
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 AUG 1981 0901-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #53
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 31 Aug 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:
              SF Books - Computers, SF Topics - Replies,
        Science Today - Stasis fields & Planetfest/Voyager II,
                Humor - Hot Voyager II Press Release,
   Spoiler - THE LATHE OF HEAVEN & THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 16:30:46-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin, U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Science fiction in computers

The September 1981 issue of Byte magazine includes an article titled
"Science Fiction's Computers".  It's largely a discussion of two
books, "The Adolescence of P-1" and "The Two Faces of Tomorrow",
though there's a fair amount of justifiable complaining about how
authors don't seem to understand what AI is all about.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1981 1426-EDT
From: DYER-BENNET at KL2137
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 in care of" <YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Replies to SF-LOVERS Digests

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #38 )

(Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics) Thank you \very/ much for taking the
time to research television and film resolution, and for citing your
source (in case anybody doesn't believe me if I ever use the figures).

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #39 )

.PUN MODE
Actually, the phrase "Neut the ghettos" is the slogan for the new
enforced birth-control program to be used on the nation's poor urban
population (double meaning intentional).
.END PUN MODE

(Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A) Some of the endless massaging of RotLA
seems to be related to serious interest in the aesthetics of film,
too.

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #40 )

(Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSOL at MIT-MC>) Until I saw your message I
had thought that I was the only person who found Heinlein's \I Will
Fear no Evil/ (IWFnE) any better than marginally readable.  Even I do
not regard it as a "great book."  Have you read his most recent new
novel, \Number of the Beast/?  I think that it's considerably better
than IWFnE, and only slightly less good than \Time Enough for Lust/
(TEfL).

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #42 )

(Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)) (Comments on RotLA) I
found myself to be in a similar position relative to my social circle.
I'm glad to see the curmudgeonly spoil-sports beginning to rally!!

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #46 )

(obrien at RAND-UNIX) I'm not aware that there is a procedure for
denying a Hugo nomination to a work.  I believe that currently the
nominators are allowed to decide for themselves what deserves to be
nominated.  I can see potential problems with this scheme if someone
organizes a drive to get something totally inappropriate nominated....


[In contrast, SF-Lovers Digest might be an appropriate nominee, but it
certainly could not survive the nomination, since that would draw
public attention which could not be overlooked.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 27 August 1981 1555-EDT (Thursday)
From: Marc.Donner at CMU-10A
Subject: Stasis fields

It has been almost two weeks since the query about stasis fields was
sent and there have been no replies (that I have noticed).  As a mangy
ex-physicist (recently turned hacker) I will yap about it a bit.

I presume that by "stasis field" we are talking about a region of
space where time flows slowly or not at all.  In other words, things
are not affected by the passage of time outside.  If this assumption
is not what is generally understood by "stasis field", then my
comments are irrelevant.

There are two parts of the process of protecting some physical object
from the ravages of time.  The first part is keeping external photons
from bumping into the object.  This is difficult, if not impossible,
but a pretty good approximation can be achieved by brute force (one
parsec of *EXTREMELY* good mirrors surrounding the protected object?),
so we can imagine a technical breakthrough allowing the perfect mirror
(remember it must not allow *ANY* photons through) to be physically
thin.  Actually, quantum mechanics forbids a truly *PERFECT* mirror,
but the imperfections can be pretty damn close to a set of measure
zero.  The second part (and by far the most important) is keeping the
internal clocks in the object from ticking.  If we ask what this
really means, we are told that, down deep, we must keep S (entropy in
thermodynamics) from increasing.  This can be done (so far as is
currently known) only at very low temperatures (Buffalo, New York in
mid-February is a good bet).  Worse yet, current theory says that this
temperature is not physically achievable.  Thus, lacking a major new
physical phenomenon, it is impossible to actually *STOP* the internal
clock although it is possible to make it run arbitrarily slowly.

Unfortunately, this solution is not really very satisfying because of
a few minor materials science problems, like the fact that anything
living that gets frozen to near-absolute-zero temperatures tends to
wake up dead.  (Hell, liquid nitrogen temperatures keeps the clock
slow enough to make no never mind, and even that is rough on humans.)
The basic problem, according to reports, is that the goop inside the
cells, as it freezes, develops some sharp edged crystals that kind of
hack up the internal structures.  You wake up with all your stuff
microscopically Osterized.

It would be nice to have a <something> that simply made all the
particles in an object stop moving and stop exchanging photons and so
on, but there is no yet-known <something> that makes the grade.

--Marc--

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 1738-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: 90000 space pictures available

At the Planetary Society's Planetfest this past week, JPL had a really
neat display.  It seems that they are taking about 90,000 of the
pictures taken by both Viking spacecraft (and orbiters) of Mars, and
the Voyager pictures of Jupiter, its moons, Saturn, and its moons (and
including "movie" sequences of images) and are putting all this on ONE
videodisk, which will be availible to anyone for about $25 or so.

The disk they had there had "only" about 42,000 images, including the
blue movie of the circulation around the red spot (a video disk can
hold 108,000 frames, and they are putting one image per frame).  You
can randomly access any frame.  They are using an apple to control the
videodisk player and to access information about each image from a PDP
11.

Just imagine having access to all those pictures in your own home
whenever you want!!  I told them they ought to put Landsat pictures on
another disk, so that you could essentially get pictures of anywhere
on Earth for any 18-day period over the past 10 or 15 years. (They
said that they didnt have anything to do with Landsat, but maybe I
should suggest this to those that do).

The facility doing this and their address and phone is:

        Planetary Image Facility
        Building 264, Room 115
        Jet Propulsion Laboratory
        4800 Oak Grove Drive
        Pasadena, CA  91103


                                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 1806-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Planetfest 81 and Voyager II

I have just spent this past week at the Planetary Society's Planetfest
and at JPL watching the results of the Voyager II flyby of Saturn.  I
thought I'd mention some of the things that have been happening.

First of all Planetfest was an incredible success, with, I would say
about 5-10 K people there.  They had exhibits, art exhibits, movies,
and talks by people like Bradbury, Roddenberry, Beggs (admin of NASA,
his talk was sent out over AP, and reprinted in a previous SPACE
digest), Murray, Sagan, and others.  They had a display where they are
taking many of the Voyager and Viking pictures and putting them on a
videodisk (see my earlier message).  Also, they had a working remote
controlled Mars rover.  They had the photos coming in from Voyager II
being displayed on monitors and also on a very large projection TV in
a big auditorium.  They even had a performance of one of the acts of
Bradbury's Martian Chronicles.

There were tables representing many of the space groups (Delta Vee,
OASIS, BIS, etc) and many companies (Rockwell had talks and movies
about the Shuttle including a really great new movie which is narrated
by Crippen and Young and has no other music or narration on the first
Shuttle flight).

The high point of the Planetfest was a panel discussion on Tue. night.
There was about 2500-3000 people there, far more than I've seen at
similar panels.  The panelists were:  Ray Bradbury, Carl Sagan, Bruce
Murray, Gene Roddenberry, and Ted Koppel of ABC's Nightline show.  The
panel started at 7:30, but without Sagan, who was at the Blue Room at
JPL.  Then, at 7:50, Ted Koppel got in a car to go to JPL's press
area.  The discussion went on until about 8:30 (which is 11:30 EDT)
when Bradbury and Murray left to go to another room at Planetfest
where ABC was set up.  This left Roddenberry there to keep everyone
entertained for a few minutes.

At 8:30, Nightline comes on live, and we see it on the big projection
TV.  Ted Koppel is reporting from the press area at JPL, Sagan is in
the Blue Room at JPL, Murray and Bradbury are at Planetfest, and also
in the show is the President's Science advisor and Sen. Proxmire.  I
hope many of you saw that show, it was fantastic.  It basically
addressed the question of where do we go from here and how come there
isn't any money to continue planetary exploration.  Also, of course
was why there are three countries sending probes to Halley's comet,
but we are not.

Everyone gave a great show, and perhaps swayed some public support
towards space.  Proxmire was his usual self although he did emphasize
that this program did not deserve a Golden Fleece award, it's just
that the planets will be there "for thousands of years" and that there
is really "no hurry to explore them, we can do it in another
generation."

After the show was over, Koppel and Sagan get back in a car and come
back to Planetfest (which was about 12 miles away) for the last half
hour of the panel.

The audience got quite rowdy at times, and were all extremely pro
space, something I found really exciting.  Also, the Planetary Society
has about 80,000 members and expects about 100,000 by the end of the
year, which makes it the fastest growing organization of any kind.

I don't really want to say much about what is going on at JPL, because
by the time you get this, the information will be out of date, and
it's on PBS and the news.  Although the platform arm is still not
working correctly, they think it is working well enough to resume
taking pictures.  They see no reason not to be able to carry out a
Uranus mission in Jan, 1986.  (One of the buttons everyone is wearing
says Goodbye Saturn, but when you turn it over, it becomes Hello
Uranus; the Uranus is Saturn upside down.)

Anyway, lots of neat pictures have been coming in.  They will be going
past Phoebe on Sep 4 which ought to be interesting since we have no
good pictures of that moon and Voyager I didn't get any pictures of
it.


                        On to Uranus!

                                Alan

------------------------------

Date: 30 August 1981 17:45-EDT
From: Robert Elton Maas <REM at MIT-MC>
Subject: Planetfest 81 and Voyager II

I liked Carl Sagan's rebuttal to Proxmire's claim -- sure the planets
will be around for billions of years, but we might not.  We need to
get out to space, get the overall perspective, and try hard to
survive, before it's too late.  (Note, that's not a quote or even a
paraphrase, more like my interpretation of the gist of Sagan's
statement.)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 2101-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Hot Voyager II Press Release

The following press release appeared at the JPL press room today:

                                        Alan


                     FAULTRONIC PRESS RELEASE

Faultronics Systems, of Pasadena, California is responsible for
designing the failure of the Voyager 2 scan platform.  Azimuthal
rotation of the scan platform is inhibited to permit Voyager to
produce high-resolution photographs of its primary target, empty
space, without blemishes caused by ugly planets, satellites, rings,
etc.  This is of crucial importance for the Voyager mission because,
as Senator William Proxmire stated recently, "Those planets will be
there for a long long time."

Like its sister spacecraft, Voyager 1, Voyager 2's scan platform is
equipped with a custom designed gremlin, manufacured within strict
tolerance limits and engineered to exceed the planned lifetime of the
spacecraft.  The gremlin presented a formidable challenge to
Faultronics engineers in that, due to Voyager's unique operating
environment, it had to be constructed to be highly resistant to fault
detection.

Faultronics also manufactures failure systems for medfly eradication
and is a major contractor for the United States government.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 08/31/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses the
plots of LeGuin's THE LATHE OF HEAVEN and Verne's THE MAN WHO COULD
WORK MIRACLES.  Those who have not read either or both of these
stories may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 09:37:51-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
From: "ihuxo!hobs in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: THE LATHE OF HEAVEN and THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES

(PROBABLE SPOILER)
The mention in a couple of recent SFLs of Ursala K. LeGuin's THE LATHE
OF HEAVEN (tLoH) reminded me of something that I came across recently.
I have both seen the film of tLoh and read the book (and if you have
not done so, then I most heartily recommend them both) and when I did
so, I was reminded of something that I had read before.  Last week, I
came across a collection of H. G. Wells' short stories, and I reread
them, and one of them, THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES (tMWCWM [don't
you love these acronyms]), had a very similar plot to tLoH.

The story of tMWCWM is that a man is having an argument in a pub about
how, if reality is altered, could anyone tell the difference, and it
turns out that he has the ability to change reality just by wishing
it.  He tells a friend about this power and they make a number of
changes to the  world and,  through an injudicious  wish, end  up
destroying the earth.  The story ends with him wishing that everything
gets put back the way it was before he had the conversation that
enabled him to discover his power and that the conversation takes
another track.

I wonder what (if any) influence Wells' story had on LeGuin.

                                    John

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #54
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 SEP 1981 0813-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #54
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Sep 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - The Inspector General & The Computer Connection &
            The Humanoid Touch & New Niven/Pournelle book,
       SF TV - "Dr. Who" & "Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy",
                 SF Movies - "Outland" & "Star Wars",
                       Spoiler - "Heavy Metal"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  31 August 1981 09:57 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  The Inspector General

I don't recall the author, but it appeared either in Astounding (85%
probability) or Galaxy (15%) in the 1951-1957 timeframe because I well
remember reading it, and building a model of the IG from the
illustrations.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 31 August 1981 1725-EDT (Monday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject: Bester's Immortality Novel

        The Alfred Bester novel about immortals (asked about last
issue) is "The Computer Connection".  The Immortals became that way
after suffering a serious traumatic experience which should have
killed them, but which they somehow managed to survive.  (The main
character, for example, became immortal when his grass hut was blown
off an island adjacent to Krakatoa.)  The trauma set off some kind of
hormone reaction which made the immortals immune to almost everything,
except "lepcer", a degenerative disease similar to cancer and leprosy.
The plot of the novel is far too complex to try to summarize here, but
it involved the induction of a new member into the group of immortals,
a sentient(?) computer's world domination conspiracy, a major
scientific discovery, and a lot of other stuff.  The background future
Earth is full of typical Bester details (student riots at Union
Carbide University, finding an old Nixon nickel in a trash heap,
etc.).
        If anyone knows where I can get a copy of "The Computer
Connection", please let me know.  (Send mail to David.Cunnius@CMUA.) I
lent out my paperback copy four years ago and haven't seen the
borrower since.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1981 10:28 PDT
From: Sapsford at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Review of "The Humanoid Touch"

Nano-review: Don't read it.

This book infuriated me more than any that I have read in the last
year (and I read a lot of SF, both good and bad).  The cover blurb
says: "The long awaited sequel to the classic 'Humanoids'", and since
many years ago I had read and enjoyed "Humanoids" I thought that it
would be worth a try (despite the fact that most sequels that come out
long after the original seem to be significantly inferior).  What
sticks in my craw is that instead of having the hero triumph over (or
be crushed by) the dismal situation he finds himself in, the story
ends with the central conflict being magically washed away by the
writer.  Our hero simply decides that the problem was only that he was
viewing things incorrectly.  I might have been willing to accept it,
except that there was insufficient ground work done earlier in the
book to make such acceptance plausible.  I object to the fact that the
writer suckers the reader in by slowly tightening the noose around the
hero, making the reader wonder "how is this going to work out?", and
then does not resolve the conflict that has been developed in a
satisfying manner.  The bottom line was that it felt like the worst
case of a writer coming to the end of the book and not knowing how to
finish it that I have run across in a long while.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 1302-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at SU-AI>
Subject: New Niven/Pournelle book

Niven and Pournelle announced (at Planetfest 81 in Pasadena earlier
this week) a sequel to ``The Mote in God's Eye''.  Its working title
is

                 ``The Moat around Murchison's Eye''

an explanation of which would certainly earn me a spoiler.  I didn't
catch a date of availability other than ``soon''.  Also, Carl Sagan is
writing a science fiction novel, and claims that it will become a
movie, also.  No available title, but the book deals with First
Contact with extraterrestrials.

                                        -- Tom

------------------------------

Date: 1 September 1981 00:39-EDT
From: Kevin J. Burnett <KJB at MIT-AI>
Subject: Doctor Who

As far as I know, the only place where the doctor is on is on KTEH
(channel 54).  It might be on Ch 9 also (at least it was on channel 98
before).
- Kevin

------------------------------
Date: 31 Aug 1981 08:44:15-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Dr. Who

There is a great deal beyond the original introduction of Romana.  She
has had at least three incarnations that I know of (1) as a primitive
Amazon given to attacking people who do not please her with a knife
(2) as a kind of efficient secretary type and (3) as a schoolgirlish
type given to wearing sailor suits.  This last incarnation leaves The
Doctor to help a society in E-Space.  According to him, she was "The
Noblest Romana of them all..."  It is the trouble he expects from her
leaving that gets him to LOGOPOLIS, the dissolution of the universe
and his own TOD und Verklarung..

Byron Howes
University of North Carolina -- Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 28-Aug-1981 0828-EDT
From: JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL
Reply-to: "JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Dr. Who & HHGTTG

1) Summary of Dr. Who. transitions in the U.K.

  1.1   Leela stays on Galifree, and the Dr. goes off with K-9 2nd.

  1.2   The Dr. gets a new partner - a female time lord (time lady?)
        played by Lalla Ward (seen in the U.S. in the PBS showing of
        "The Duchess of Duke Street" playing Lottie, the daughter).

  1.3   Tom Baker leaves, and the new Dr. Who is the actor who played
        Tristan Farnon in "All Creatures Great and Small".

  Somewhere at about time 1.25 somebody married somebody else, but I
  can't remember if it involved the players or the characters.

2) "Cutting" of Dr. Who by TLTV

    The Dr. Who episodes in England are NOT 30 minutes long. They run
    in a 25-minute slot, with a considerable amount of 'last week we
    saw.....' lead in.  This means TLTV are not cutting out much of
    the action.
    <efm>
    What DOES irritate me about the TLTV editing is the atrocious
    voice-over, and the disgusting way they give away the plot of
    this week's episode in the introduction WITHOUT EVEN A SPOILER
    WARNING.  This seems to be a habit on much of American TV, in
    particular masterpiece theatre. Maybe it's watching too much
    'Columbo' - the only known detective (?) series without the
    element of suspense.
    <lfm>

3) HHGTTG movie.
    I have not heard of a movie, but there is a BBC-TV dramatization
    of the book, of which I have seen the 1st episode.  Be warned,
    however, that this will probably get the same treatment in the
    U.S. as the paperback book did - the British book has the words
    'Don't Panic' in large (and probably friendly) letters on the
    cover.
eb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 1210-EDT
From: VOGON::BARKER
Reply-to: "VOGON::BARKER in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Britain does it again!!

The (from what I have heard) rather yukky film 'OUTLAND' is yet again
a British made SF film (in the footsteps of Star Wars, TESB, Alien,
etc, etc...)

Thought you would be interested.

Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1981 1650-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Ben and the Emperor

I Kenobi leave it.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 09/01/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It goes into quite a
bit of detail in reviewing "Heavy Metal".  Readers who have not seen
this movie may not wish to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1981 21:34:11-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: Another Heavy review-- SPOILER!!  SPOILER!! SPOILER!!

Well, my friend on the East coast has sent me another review.  This
one looks to be a spoiler, so I stopped reading it after a paragraph
or two.  I will forward replies to him.  Here goes:

>From hoasa!mrl


                               Heavy Metal
                     a film review by Mark R. Leeper

    If one thinks back over the films that are considered classics,
    most of them have been great because they have tried to do
    something on film that has never been done before.  Certainly,
    there have been many very enjoyable films that did not attempt to
    do anything particularly creative or unusual.  They made
    relatively safe profits for the companies that produced them.  But
    the films that most people remember as great offered something
    that other films did not have, something that set them apart.  I
    cannot fault HEAVY METAL on its originality or its creativity.
    Potentially, it could have been one of the best fantasy films ever
    made.  The fact that it only "could have been" and was not makes
    it all the more disappointing as a film.
         HEAVY METAL, the film, is an animated cinematic version of
    several stories that appeared in the magazine of the same name.
    HEAVY METAL, the magazine, is a high-gloss comic book dedicated to
    the proposition that the editors' five highest priorities should
    be art, art, art, story-line, and art.  If need be, that fourth
    priority can be done away with.  The same priorities were applied
    to the film, making it an omnibus of stories that were pretty to
    look at but at best were childish and at worst pointless.
         One would think that there should be a natural affinity
    between science fantasy and animation on the wide screen.  It
    takes a substantial financial investment and a fair amount of new
    technology to put a film like STAR WARS on the screen in live-
    action.  But it is little more expensive to put on the screen a
    highly-imaginative animated film than one that is not so creative.
    People like the Fleischer Brothers, who did a series of short but
    interesting SUPERMAN cartoons as far back as WWII, could have done
    a film of the imagination of STAR WARS thirty years before George
    Lucas did.  There are interesting films being done in animated
    science fantasy in Japan and Europe.  Yet English-language film
    producers apparently feel that an animated science fantasy will
    strike the public as being too much like garbage Saturday morning
    cartoons and will not be taken seriously.  Before HEAVY METAL the
    only full-length animated science fantasy that had been shown in
    theaters is the French FANTASTIC PLANET.  It also was a film of
    broken promise with a dull and pretentious storyline punctuated by
    only a few scenes of the imagination that animation makes
    possible.  Now HEAVY METAL has become the first full-length
    science fantasy done in the English language, at least as far as I
    can remember.  And, while HEAVY METAL is better than FANTASTIC
    PLANET, it all-too-often either puts on pretensions or panders to
    the underground comic book audience.  Its pandering consists of
    putting in frequent scenes of sex and drugs which might be good in
    moderation but they slow the pace of the film and take up valuable
    film time that could be used to make the stories less simplistic.
         Like many omnibus films, but as a departure from the
    magazine, the stories are tied together with a framing story
    involving a sphere called the Loc Nar which somehow embodies the
    ultimate evil.  Each of the stories has been taken from the
    magazine but has been greatly rewritten for the screen so that the
    Loc Nar fits into the story, even if only superficially.  The
    first two stories make up the framing sequence.  "Soft Landing" is
    completely plotless and serves only to show the audience the
    unlikely image of a sports car traveling through Earth's
    atmosphere like a space shuttle.  The second story, "Grimaldi"
    serves only to introduce the Loc Nar.
         The first story with an actual plot is "Harry Canyon."  It is
    essentially an hackneyed crime story of the Philip Marlowe mold
    but set in a 21st Century New York City after order has broken
    down.  The backdrop is much reminiscent of this season's ESCAPE
    FROM NEW YORK.  Yet, in spite of some interesting throw-away
    touches like having auto tires made of steel (apparently petroleum
    products are unavailable) and having the police available for
    protection on a bribe-only basis, the story is like something out
    of a cheap detective novel, which may be just the point.  The best
    segment of the film is "Den," a story in the style of Edgar Rice
    Burroughs about an 18-year-old who finds himself transported into
    a parallel universe in which he is a beefy barbarian.  The story
    is greatly condensed from a story that ran as a serial the entire
    first year of the magazine.  Artist Corben's artwork and the
    story's homage to Burroughs gives this segment a rewarding edge
    that the others do not have.  It also seems to have the most
    melodic musical score, a delightful change from the rock music
    that fills most of the film.
         "Captain Stern" is present, apparently, only for comic relief
    and does not fit into the rest of the film.  In this segment the
    Loc Nar is used as a fallible force for good rather than an
    invincible force for evil.  Ironically, the story also serves
    nicely as a lampoon of aspects of "Den."  "B-17" is a departure
    from science fantasy and belongs more to the same genre of horror
    as the old EC comic books (which were also the sources for live
    action omnibus films TALES FROM THE CRYPT and VAULT OF HORROR).
    The Loc Nar is only tangentially connected to "So Beautiful and So
    Deadly."  This story is almost a complete misfire.  The title has
    less to do with the story than does the Loc Nar.  As a story it
    provides little but comic relief and a visual image that would
    have made an interesting cover to CHILDHOOD'S END.  Featured is a
    spaceship of inconsistent size with two pilots who are meant to
    remind the audience of Cheech and Chong -- an example of the
    artistic level the producers were striving for as well as what
    audience.
         The longest and perhaps one of the better stories is
    "Taarna."  In it the filmmakers prove how liberal they are by
    creating a female barbarian hero.  Why, after all, should only
    males have barbarian role models?  Of course the film makes Taarna
    little more than a sex object and considerably more vulnerable
    than the male barbarians.  The story includes long sections of
    nudity; it has Taarna stripped, whipped, and attacked with
    circular saws.  And what female barbarian story would be complete
    without at least one attempted gang rape?  With friends like these
    the equal rights movement has no need of enemies.  While this is
    the longest of the stories, it wastes most of its time with
    trivialities that do nothing to advance the plot.
         HEAVY METAL works like a Chinese dinner in reverse.  Each of
    its parts is a silly piece of fluff, but an hour after seeing the
    film the viewer feels that it was, somehow, a far more substantial
    film than it actually was.  Perhaps as a whole the film is greater
    than the sum of its parts, but with the time and effort that went
    into the film, something far greater should have made it to the
    screen.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #55
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 SEP 1981 1106-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #55
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Wed, 2 Sep 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
                      Query - Ionic hovercraft,
        SF Radio - Raiders Puns on talk show, SF TV - Dr. Who,
                    SF Fandom - Hugo eligibility,
 SF Movies - "American Werewolf in London" & "Wolfen" & "Star Wars",
                       SF Topics - Immortality,
                Spoiler - New Star Trek motion picture
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1981 2348-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: reference please

I'm looking for any reference anyone can come up with to a Russian
experimenter in the 50's working on ionic hovercraft.  That is, one
whose fans were electrostatic impellors instead of physical blades.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  2 Sep 1981 00:52-PDT
Subject: Raiders Puns
From: gail at RAND-UNIX

Any of you who live in the L.A. area might be interested in this (if
you can stand the subject any more).  I think Hour 25 (S.F. radio
program) is going to include something on this new "art form" we
developed on their program this week.  It is supposed to be an open
phones show and from comments last week, I think one of the subjects
will be Raiders Puns.  Anyway, might be interesting to listen in and
see.

Hour 25 is on KPFK (90.7 FM) Friday 10-12 p.m.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1981 12:55:25-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #54

If the description of the voice-overs and length is correct, then WUNC
and its affiliates in North Carolina are running the original uncut
versions of Dr. Who...so it must be possible to do so elsewhere.  The
episodes I have seen are run without voice-overs, although the
distribution is attributed to Time-Life, Inc.

As an incidental query, can anyone place a series of episodes where
the Doctor's henchpersons were Sarah and Harry, and travel was done
without the Tardis, but rather to points where a symmetric array of
spheres happened to be preset?

                Thanks,
                Byron Howes

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1981 11:16:04-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Hugo eligibility

   There are in fact a number of rules describing exactly what is
eligible for a Hugo in a given year.  Unfortunately, the enforcement
of these rules is left entirely up to the World SF Convention
committee for the year in question.
   Traditionally, individual committees have exercised a significant
amount of discretion, particularly in the division of written work
into the four fiction categories on the ballot.  Occasionally the
question arises of which year a work is eligible; last year, for
instance, it was determined that RINGWORLD ENGINEERS had in fact not
been generally published since the last part of the serial wasn't out
and there was only a small-press version in book form.  Unfortunately
this year's worldcon committee lacks experience, knowledge of their
inexperience, and connections to anybody with more experience
(including next year's committee); they accordingly made a decision
(against SUPERMAN II) which will doubtless give more fuel to virulent
anti-American fans such as Christopher Priest and Sam Lundwall.  Next
year's committee has announced that they will follow the rules making
the movie ineligible for a Hugo next year unless directed otherwise by
the Worldcon Business Meeting.  (I'm \not/ going to Denvention, but I
expect that the business meetings might be the one thing worth going
to; between this and the 1983 bidding mess it could be quite a
circus.)
   Frankly, I think S2 is getting off remarkably well; I expect they
would have been stomped by The Empire Strikes Back if they had been
eligible for this year's award.  (I have seen figures showing SW as
the first Dramatic Presentation nominee to have an absolute majority
on the first round of counting (out of 5 nominees in a reverse-
preferential vote); TESB is likely to do almost as well.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1981 0110-EDT
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: American Werewolf in London

In the mad dash across Picadilly, the werewolf certainly bit more than
he killed, continuing his bloodline, and preparing us for sequels,
such as

                    Welsh Werewolf in Wollongong.

                                  or

                            Welsh Rarebit
------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1981 1202-EDT
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: "The Wolfen"; More game stuff

  After reading a good review of the 'Wolfen' here I must respond by
saying that this picture is definitely forgettable and should not be
seen unless you're having trouble sleeping nights. The filmmakers have
taken a book which is flawed but occasionally interesting and made a
picture which is flawed and NEVER interesting. Not even the fine
talents of Finney can save this one!
  The basic premise from the book ( a race of intelligent wolves are
using the human race as their own private A&P; It's man's superior
intelligence versus the Wolfen's intelligence and superior predatory
skill ) has been changed so that a potentially exciting cat and mouse
scenario is now an excercise in pseudo-intellectual crap equal to or
worse than "The Manitou".
  I have nothing against a fresh handling of the old 'monster' theme,
but this movie dosen't even come close to being successful. The
polarized 'this is how the wolfen see things' shots are amateurish and
a waste of your time and mine.  The script is lousy. The acting is
better than usual but it dosen't help; there isn't enough material
here to fill a newt's pocket. So unless you're a masochist pass this
one up; this is a film with a lot of gums but no bite.
 *          *        *        *        *        *        *        *
  On the lighter side of things I just wanted to mention that if
anyone has any questions regarding SF or Fantasy games I would be
happy to try and help. Also, I have just recently procured the Avalon
Hill version of 'Source of the Nile', a game wherein the players take
the role of African explorers hell bent on discovering interesting
geographical, cultural and scientific tidbits on the dark continent.
I haven't had a chance to play this yet because I'm temporarily
without housing, a minor problem to say the least! I would however
appreciate any detailed comments by those who have played this new
version of a '78 game.
       PAX!               > Steve Sherman <

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 29 Aug 1981 22:42-PDT
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Clone Wars

Ignoring the question of whether it's Guinness' face in the Emperor's
hologram (well, since you ask, it sure looks like Sir Alec to me), my
wife makes an interesting observation:

The name Obi-wan Kenobi could easily be the name of a clone or a
master.  OB-1 reminds one of the droid designations, which are spelled
out in the credits as See-threepio and Artoo-detoo (if memory serves).
The "-1" could indicate that he's the master that many other clones
were taken from, or that he's the first of a batch.  Remember also
that in Episode IV he went by the name "Old Ben Kenobi" rather than
"Obi-wan" -- maybe that was because of the connotations that a clone
name would have to other people...
Are all human Jedi masters (including the Emperor, who obviously uses
the Force) clones of OB-1?

Do we know whether Uncle Owen is Luke's paternal or maternal uncle?
The genealogy here is getting really confused, and any datum might
help.

------------------------------

Date: 30 August 1981 02:01-EDT
From: "Robert J Stratton, III." <STRAT at MIT-AI>
Subject: The emperor

As a con goer who sat through 1 & 1/2 hours of details on TESB I can
confirm that the emperor was a 90 or so year old woman, heavily made
up, with monkey eyes 'dubbed in'.
                Open sky!
                Bob Stratton
                (STRAT at MIT-AI)

------------------------------

Date:  1 September 1981 22:47 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject:  frozen critters

The New York Times had an article last month about freezing mouse
fetuses.  Yup, they can do it and they can wake them up and turn them
into instant mice.  They are making up a huge bank of all the major
breeds.  Who knows, in 20 years a lab might tell some poor undergrad
coolie to heat up 50 mice for a cancer cure test run?  (They don't eat
(or other things) when frozen.)

No luck with adult mice yet but I was surprised to see it can be made
to work this well.

                              Seth Steinberg

------------------------------

Date:  31 August 1981 12:18 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Immortality

A biography I once read said that its subject was ready for death
because he had grown so old that the world he knew how to live in
didn't exist anymore.  I think this is an important point about aging;
it is the concrete trivia of life, such as how to get around, how much
to tip, where to go, etc. that is as important or more important than
the abstract major themes of life like profession.  You will note this
especially if you escort the aged (like your parents) around what used
to be their old haunts; the more active they were in the prime of life
the more they seem to be affected by the changes (in my case, almost
always for the worse, for I grew up in the SF Bay Area) they see.
Enthusiasm for new things seems to fall prey to terminal dismay.

Earl

------------------------------

Date:  1 September 1981 22:46 edt
From:  SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject:  Human life span.

It is true that the average life span has increased dramatically but
the peak life span has not.  2000 years ago (even 4000 years ago) some
people lived into their eighties (or even longer) but most people died
young.  One's chances of living to 80 are now higher than ever.
Unfortunately, even with 4e9 people an insignifigant number break 110.

The human body wears out after 60-100 years and that is the big
problem.  For a long time medical research attacked the problem of
keeping people alive into their twenties or sixties.  Now it is
worried about keeping them healthy.  The next big step will involve
lengthening the aging rate.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 1981 11:59:25-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: aging

   I'm fascinated by some of the material that has been going over on
this topic in the past few days (variables are used in place of names
missed when I scanned accumulated digests).

---X states that Franklin slept in Congress because he knew that
younger people had to hash things out to see it his way. What
incredible arrogance!  I find this not unbelievable (given the little
I know of Franklin), but stupid. I've found the hard way (watching the
local SF group attempt to reform its annual convention) that long
argument is frequently necessary to bring out new facts and old
prejudices even in a relatively homogeneous group; considering the
differences just among the original 13 states I find that position
dangerously shortsighted.
---Y brings out the canard about geometric increase in lifespan. In
fact, people in any age who avoided the standard pitfalls easily lived
to 70 or beyond. The \\average// lifespan was low; this includes the
high levels of infant mortality (I've been reading a book about early
American technologists and am still shocked now and then when the
author casually notes the low fraction of children surviving to
adulthood).
---The alleged canard of inventions coming only from young people is
discussed.  Certainly there are exceptions to this rule (but let's not
talk about Edison, who appears to have been the first industrialist to
follow the academic practice of a supervisor taking credit for all
ideas generated) but there has been research showing why this might be
true; the Johnson O'Connor Human Engineering Laboratory has found that
absolute scores on tests of inductive reasoning (the ability to
assemble separate facts into a coherent pattern) tend to peak before
age 20 and drop off sharply thereafter. They haven't done enough true
retrospective work but what they have is sound.
---An entirely personal observation of mine is that older people tend
to have more trouble grasping a new idea, especially one that requires
them to assimilate new facts or attitudes. This tends to vary greatly
with the individual and may well have a cultural bias; Western
societies have generally supported the idea of the old as repositories
of wisdom, which would encourage them to believe that they don't need
to learn anything new. The problem is that the world is developing
fast enough that one generation's approximate solutions (which are
usually all that any generation can manage) are often grossly
inadequate for the very next generation.
   The idea that people learn to filter out more and more material as
they grow older is most compactly described in "Noise Level"
(reprinted in SPECTRUM V) in which a demonstration is faked to force a
group of scientists to accept as possible, and thus try to duplicate,
something they had concluded was impossible. It also shows up in more
dramatic/poetic form in one of the flashbacks in ONE FLEW OVER THE
CUCKOO'S NEST (q.v.): the nativeamerican narrator recalling how
something he as a child said to some whites was simply ignored---as if
it had never been said---when they couldn't fit it into their world
view.
   Certainly this is a somewhat jaundiced view; I might even call it
an American view (as contrasted to a European view, if you take this
as one of the labels for the young/old, brash/mature, pioneering/
stick-in-the-mud dichotomy). Certainly many individuals make a point
of not falling into this trap; a couple of them are among my firmest
friends and I hope always to fall in that category. But I think it's
fair to say that our culture at least is biased towards this
narrowing---perhaps the immortals (or at least longer-lived people)
will be the ones who can break out of this trap.
   For an alternate view, consider Silverberg's THE BOOK OF SKULLS---
something of a downer, somewhat Eastern in perspective, but definitely
a coherent investigation of one possibility for immortality in a way
which I think would make immortality quite undesirable to most of us.

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 09/02/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It gives away a
detail about the next Star Trek movie that everyone will almost
certainly hear of by the time the movie comes out, but readers who
want to try not to have it spoiled for them may wish not to read on.

------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1981 0945-EDT
From: Jeff Shulman <SHULMAN at RUTGERS>
Subject: The next Star Trek movie

        I just heard that Shatner and Nimoy were both signed up for
the next Star Trek movie (so said GoodMorning America).  They also
said that Nimoy would make a BRIEF appearance as Spock because, now
hear this:  Spock will be KILLED off!  Anyone know anything else about
this?

                                                        Jeff

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #56
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 SEP 1981 0917-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #56
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thu, 3 Sep 1981         Volume 4 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:
              Administrivia - Upcoming Guest Moderator,
                    Query - The Planetary Society,
      SF Books - Story identifications & The Riverworld Series,
                       SF Topics - Immortality,
          SF Radio - "Hitch-hiker's Guide", SF TV - Dr. Who,
            SF Movies - Star Wars news & "Raiders" borrow,
                  Spoiler - The next Star Trek movie
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 09/03/81 0000-PDT
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: Upcoming Guest Moderator

    I will shortly take off to attend the World SF Convention in
Denver.  After the current digest, Joel P. Bion will moderate the
SF-LOVERS Digest in my stead, for the next five days.  You may expect
no decrease in the quality of digests you will receive.  (In other
words, I really expect he'll do a good job!)

Happy reading,
   Mike Peeler

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  2 Sep 1981 10:39-PDT
From: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: The Planetary Society

Can someone send a brief description of the Planetary Society and an
address?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1981 11:49:16-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: story identifications

   The Bester story about immortals was serialized in ANALOG as INDIAN
GIVER, which may be how people remember it; it was a Hugo nominee
about 5 years ago. The theory was that the mental shock when you were
absolutely certain you were going to die but didn't caused long-term
cell building to speed up to keep up with cell breakdown.
   "The Inspector General" was by Theodore Cogswell; it appears in
volume 2 (don't remember A or B) of the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.
A successor (concluding with a mildly bawdy pun that never could have
been published in the old ASTOUNDING) appears in REQUIEM FOR
ASTOUNDING: The John W. Campbell Memorial Anthology.
------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1981 0354-EDT
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: The 'Riverworld' series

   After having finished the four books in the main 'Riverworld'
collection I have only two things to say:

           1. It would make a terrific movie series if certain pieces
of the story were deleted or rewritten.
           2. As a literary work it has to be the worst hunk of junk
this side of the Galaxy.  Avoid it at all costs!  (The 'Amber' series
by Zelazny is so much better that its not even funny.  If you haven't
read this amazing work check it out IMMEDIATELY.)             S.S.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1981 13:15:14-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: immortality

*Western* societies venerate the aged as sources of wisdom?  Not
lately, at least not in this country.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1981 16:45 EDT
From: Sewhuk.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Hitchhiker's guide Radio series in Rochester

This is mostly for Rochestarians (inhabitants of Rochester for those
who don't know) The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy is going to be
replayed on WXXI 91.5 on Tuesday nights at 7 PM for the next 12 weeks.
This all begins on the 7th.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  2 Sep 1981 14:19-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Dr. Who in LA?

        Anybody know about scheduling, or plans for scheduling, of the
latest round of Dr. Who serials in the Los Angeles area?

------------------------------

Date:  2 September 1981 04:06 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  News of the next Star Wars

This should not be a spoiler.
The Arizona Film Advisory Board announced today that the next episode
in the Star Wars series would begin filming near Yuma next April.
According to information given to the Board, producer George Lucas
intends to film about 20% of the movie in the sand dunes near Yuma.

[From this we can infer that the episode takes place at least partly
on a desert planet. Too bad they aren't filming in August, they could
get some realism into it.

    "Oh, it's a hundred and ten in Gila Bend,
     In Buckeye, it's a hundred and two..."

                     Jerry Jeff Walker
    ]

------------------------------

Date:  2 Sep 1981 1228-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Subject: SPFX:  The Revenge of the Jedi

Some of my coworkers recently returned from the ACM SIGGRAPH
conference to report that Dykstra of Lucasfilm fame was there showing
off some early clips from Star Wars episode VI ("The Revenge of the
Jedi").

I am told that he showed one sequence with some X-wing fighters doing
maneuvers.  The effects were (according to those who reported this)
better than any seen in the first two movies.  Dykstra claimed that
the sequence was 100% computer-generated graphics; no models!

Do we really have to wait almost 2 years for this?!?

                                        Roger

                                          -   o
                                         -  -/-->
                                        -   O~\_

------------------------------

Date:  31 August 1981 12:11 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  RotLA = ILaM

Well, either from ignorance or more likely disinterest there were not
takers, so here goes with the answer.

The most likely source was a radio program called "I Love a Mystery."
This was written by one Carleton E. Morse, who was also responsible
for the tearjerker megahit of the period called "One Man's Family."
The show started in 1939, bounced on and off from network to network
through WWII, and was redone from the original 1939 scripts in
1949-1952.

The show depicted the adventures of the A-1 Detective Agency,
comprised of:

1. Jack Packard, played by Russell Thoreson, the cool, rational,
leader.  2. Doc Long, played by Jim Boles, wily cardsharp whose stock
phrase was "Honest to grandma, son...").  3. Reggie York, played by
Tony (Odd Couple) Randall, who talked like a twit and punched like
Ali.  4.-n.  Women, all played by the veteran actress Mercedes
McCambridge.

The opening theme was memorable: A train whistle, then an organ
playing Sibelius' spooky "Valse Triste," and then a clock chiming
midnight.

The similarities to RotLA are striking:

1. Indy Jones is Packard to a T.  2. The texture, which is all the
Lucasbergs understand.  Few Republic/Monogram serials, if any, could
afford the sets, props, and locales of RotLA.  Such things are cheap
in radio.  3. The tough/tender women, a Morse trademark.  Movie serial
ladies were inevitably only good for falling into the clutches of the
baddies.

The tipoff in RotLA is the names of the pilot and the snake in the
opening sequence.  Lucasberg is too young to have heard the original,
so my guess it was Kasadan, the screenwriter, whose memory made things
easy.  Jack, Reggie and Doc had adventures all over the place, but the
two most memorable had jungle/lost temple settings.

This kind of recycling is typical of the film-school-trained directors
of the Lucasberg generation.  Raymond Chandler once described the
decline of writers by saying that at the end they know all the tricks
but have nothing left to say.  The Lucasbergs learned all the tricks
in school before they had anything to say.

Well, since that one was a dud I'll try something easier and closer to
home.  Where did Spielberg steal the geometry/lighting for the hatch
of the mothership in Close Encounters??  Right answers will be
rewarded with no less than two (maybe even three) items of 1950's SF
special-effects trivia.

Earl

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 09/03/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away a
detail about the next Star Trek movie that everyone will almost
certainly hear of by the time the movie comes out, but readers who
want to try not to have it spoiled for them may wish not to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1981 13:17:11-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Star Trek 2 spoiler

As I understand it, Nimoy is VERY tired of being Mr. Spock, and it
took massive persuasion (and probably massive bucks) to get him to
appear in "Star Trek: the Moodie".  They're probably killing him off
in the sequel to eliminate the possibility of him appearing in the
threquel.  (Well, at least make it a bit harder on them -- I'm sure
that some director could decide that a clone was made, or a computer
had his brain recorded.....)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1981 17:35:48-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Subject: Star Trek and Nimoy

    I too have heard that Spock is going to be killed off, and since I
am not a movie buff (although I am a trekkie) I hardly think that
constitutes a spoiler (it seems to be "common" knowledge).  I believe
the reason is because Nimoy does not want to be character-typed as
Spock because he feels it interferes with his ability to play other
roles.  I heard that the reason the first Star Trek movie took so long
to happen is because Nimoy didn't want to do that one either until
they offered him a 7-figure salary.  This is the same reason that
Edith Bunker (from ALL IN THE FAMILY) died, because Jean Stapleton
didn't want to play Edith any more.  This trick is stolen from the
daytime soapies, where it is common for an actor to want to go on to
"better" things, and so the scriptwriters simply have the character
die or disappear somewhere, which of course creates another traumatic
incident for them to expound on, etc.

                   Greg Woods (ucbvax!menlo70!hao!woods)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1981 16:42:49-PDT
From: decvax!pur-ee!purdue!cak at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!pur-ee!purdue!cak via" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: spock being killed off

(spoiler???)
I mailed a note to sf-lovers in the beginning of June (as soon as I
heard about it) saying that Spock was to be killed off, reputedly
because Nimoy was tired of the role.  At that time, a local radio
station was having a write-in campaign protesting this move (alternate
suggestions were to have Spock retire, for example), with the
collected letters to be shipped to the producers.  The letter never
appeared; I resent it about a month ago, just after the writers'
strike ended, because the letters were being held until that event.
That one didn't show up either.  I assume it was a break in the
UUCP-ARPA link.  Anyway, for those who would still like to bombard the
folks, I can give you this address.  If they get enough mail, now,
they might still forward the letters.

        SOS     (Save Officer Spock)
        WVXU-FM
        Xavier University
        Cincinnati, OH 45207


                --Chris Kent (pur-ee!purdue!cak)

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1981 0325-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
To: CSVAX.upstill at BERKELEY
Forward-to: decvax!pur-ee!purdue!cak, menlo70!hao!woods
Subject: I am not Spock

It is common knowledge, indeed, that Nimoy wishes to dissociate
himself from the rather limiting image of Spock.  The fact that he
agrees to play Spock one more time only to get Spock killed off and
put permanently behind him is already known by many and is bound to
get plastered all over the pages of every rag from Time to Pravda.
That accounts for the wording of the spoiler warning, though it
certainly bodes ill for the efficacy of that warning.

However sure I am that the rest of the world will spoil it all for
everybody, I feel nonetheless obligated to give our more determined
readers every opportunity to succeed in maintaining a happy state of
ignorant bliss.

-- Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-SEP  	  "JPBion at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #57
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 SEP 1981 0808-EDT
From: JPBion at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #57
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Fri, 4 Sep 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:
     SF Movies - Reply to Close Encounters Query - mothership hatch,
          Star Wars Query and Speculation - Bounty Hunter name
                           and Luke's family,
                        SF Topics - Immortality,
      SF Topics - Star Wars special effects - SIGGRAPH conference,
                      SF Books - Riverword Review,
                     SF TV - Reply to Dr. Who Query,
                   Spoiler - The next Star Trek movie
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1981 1003-PDT
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF
Subject: Close Encounters answer

  The true story, honest to grandma, son, behind Spielberg's
geometry/lighting for the hatch of the mothership in Close Encounters,
is as follows:
  As a young boy - i.e. at an impressionable age - Spielberg visited
England, and of the many wonderous and amazing things he encountered
there, the one to most permanently chiselled into his neurons was the
opulent splendour of England's (indeed the world's) foremost Fish &
Chip shop, Harry Ramsdens, in particular, the CHANDELIERS.

Long live The Emperor.
Death to all non-obedient subject beings.

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1981 1546-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE-4
Subject: Close Encounters trivia -- the answer??

Re: "Where did Spielberg steal the geometry/lighting for the hatch
of the mothership in Close Encounters??"
Could you possibly be talking about the space ship in "The Day the
Earth Stood Still" starring Michael Rene, Patricia Neal and Gort?
By the way, who played Gort?
Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 1981 07:47:15-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb@Berkeley (Steven Bellovin) c/o CSVAX.Upstill
Subject: Query on "The Empire Strikes Back"

Near the beginning of TESB, Han explains to the general that he must
leave because of the bounty hunter on "Ord Mandrell", or some such
name.  I don't recall the referent.  Can anyone help?

------------------------------

Date: 3 September 1981 2253-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: Uncle Owen and Aunt

I forget the name, but at least in the book, Owen and Beru have
another last name other than Skywalker, which would be the case if
Owen was Luke's father's brother. The impression I was left with
(mention by Owen and Beru?) was that Beru was Cmdr. Skywalker's sister
who married Owen the moisture farmer.

Here's a neat one for you all: who was Luke's mother? Why do we hear
nothing of her?
                                                mitch

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 1981 10:08:39-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: veneration for aged wisdom

   Look again---\\marketing// is hitting the young adults because they
have the money, but where do you think seniority, tenure, etc. derive
from?  Granted the veneration is less obvious---in the last generation
or two, no more.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 1981 15:09 PDT
From: Swenson at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Immortality

As I read the current rash of comments about immortality I can't help
comparing SF immortality with Christian immortality (they were there
before SF)(or were they?)(Yes,they were.  SF requires science, which
is fairly new-the last 400 years or so).
  1. The human body cannot last very long.  SF invents a treatment of
some kind.  Those who are "in Christ" get a new body that will last
forever (or, if alive at the time, the old body is transformed into a
new one).
  2. What to do with all that time?  "Eye hath not seen, ear hath not
heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things which God
has prepared for those who love Him."  The Bible gives "snapshots" of
that life, for instance: God's people, together with other Created
Inteligences, gathered around the Throne worshiping, praising, and
adoring Him; the marrage supper of the Lamb.  (??What will it be like
for me, a man, to be a part of a collective bride??)  I cannot imagine
what it would be like to live in a society where there is no evil, no
pain, no death, no war, no sorrow.  I am waiting to find out.  Perhaps
(speculation) enough time to explore ALL of creation in ALL it's
aspects.

------------------------------

Date: 03 Sep 1981 0931-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at SU-AI>
Subject: X-wing fighters at SIGGRAPH

I recall the X-wing fighter sequence being shown at SIGGRAPH.  What I
do not recall is any association of that sequence with Lucasfilms.
And I don't think that Dykstra is very closely associated with the
computer graphics end of the Lucasfilm operation.  Dykstra works with
Industrial Light and Magic, which produces the *film* SFX.  There is
another group that does all the computer graphics.

The X-wing fighter sequence was, I believe, part of the New York
Institute of Technology demo film.  It was not better than the
``real'' thing, though it was pretty good.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  3 Sep 1981 12:16-PDT
Subject: SIGGRAPH in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE
From: mike at RAND-UNIX

Some of Roger Goun's coworkers returned from SIGGRAPH and reported a)
that Dykstra, from Lucasfilm, was at SIGGRAPH, and b) that he showed
some clips from Revenge of the Jedi including some computer generated
X wing fighters.

Is this message from an alternate universe?

        1.  Dykstra wasn't at SIGGRAPH.  At least, I didn't see him,
        no one mentioned his name, he showed no films, etc.

        2.  Dykstra is not at Lucasfilm.  He worked on the first Star
        Wars film, but not the second, and is no longer associated
        with Lucasfilm.  On the other hand, darn near everyone else
        from Sprocket Systesm (the Lucasfilm computer graphics group)
        WAS at SIGGRAPH.

        3.  Dykstra hates computers.  He told me so himself.  The
        famous "computer controlled Dykstraflex" with which many of
        the models of Star Wars were photographed, had digital logic
        in it, but no computer.  He likes stepping motors and things
        like that.

        4.  Revenge of the Jedi has only very recently entered pre-
        production.  There was no film at SIGGRAPH.

        5.  Information International's demo reel, which was the hit
        of SIGGRAPH with their unbelievably believable computer-
        generated juggler, also had a few second maneuver of some
        X wing fighters. They looked great.

        Craig Reynolds of III is on vacation for a while but when he
        comes back he may want to elaborate on how the fighters were
        done.

Michael Wahrman

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 1981 22:37:52-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi Graphics Rumor Unfounded

        From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>

        Some of my coworkers recently returned from the ACM SIGGRAPH
        conference to report that Dykstra of Lucasfilm fame was there
        showing off some early clips from Star Wars episode VI ("The
        Revenge of the Jedi").

   John Dykstra hasn't worked for Lucas for several years, since
before Battlestar Galactica, and he would probably not be involved in
their graphics stuff, which is not being handled by ILM.  I was at
SIGGRAPH and I didn't hear of him being there.

        I am told that he showed one sequence with some X-wing fighters
        doing maneuvers.  The effects were (according to those who
        reported this) better than any seen in the first two movies.
        Dykstra claimed that the sequence was 100% computer-generated
        graphics; no models!

   Possibly the clip being referred to was part of III's demo reel,
which had a few brief shots of some X-wing-like objects in space.  One
can imagine the Lucasfilm people being less than amused...  I heard of
no other likely film (unless it was shown in a private room that
no-one I know heard about), but I do know that photography for RotJ
starts next January, with model work commencing somewhat earlier.
According to rumor there is NO commitment to include
computer-generated 3-d animation in the film.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  3 Sep 1981 10:57-PDT
Subject: Riverworld and series SF
From: jim at RAND-UNIX

In Vol.4 #56 the Riverworld series is described as a must-miss hunk of
junk.  I feel, though, that the first volume ("To your scattered
bodies go") is an excellent job and well worth reading.  The whole
concept of the Riverworld is fascinating and (yes, even perhaps)
brilliant.  So I would describe volume 1 as a must-read.  It even got
me interested in the main character, Sir Richard Francis Burton, and
sent me off reading biogs to see how well Farmer had captured him
(pretty well, as it turns out).

I would guess that the earlier reviewer was discouraged because of
reading the whole thing in one shot.  The series does get
progressively worse as you go through it, and even a careful reader
can get whiplash from reading the last few chapters.  Why does this
happen in so many series?  The Amber series clearly has decomposed by
the 3rd or 4th book, and Dune collapsed after the first; but the first
episode of each are among my favorite books.  The only SF series
springing to mind that doesn't go downhill is Asimov's Foundation.
(Well, Known Space is uniformly excellent (except for Gift and some
stories), but that's not a series in quite the same sense.)

Any other exceptions or refutations?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 1981 17:29:19-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley (c/o CSVAX.Upstill)
Subject: Dr. Who episodes involving the transmat beam (possible spoiler)

In response to the request for information about Dr. Who episodes
involving the little spheres which comprise a transmat beam station,
the following (from memory and a perhaps incomplete viewing of the
series):

There are three stories(?) that I know of which involve the transmat
beam; two are related.

The first is one whose title I do not recall, but involves Space
Station Nerva, which is a repository for humans in suspended animation
waiting out some intense solar activity for a few millenia. The
occupants have overslept a while, and the Doctor, Harry, and Sarah
wake them up. It also turns out that the Wrrn (sp?), an intelligent
insect race, have laid eggs in the station...

The second story, "The Sontaran Experiment," occurs after the first;
Dr. Who and friends travel to Earth ahead of the Space Station Nerva
occupants in the TARDIS to check out the transmat beam before the
Nervans(?!) head back to Earth. They run into some humans who are
descendants of those who went out into space rather than wait out the
solar activity, as well as Field Marshall Styre, a Sontaran who is
checking the galaxy out for possible conquest...

The third concerns a space station whose crew is dying off of a
"plague".  It turns out that the space station circles "the planet of
gold", a planet of intense interest both to a planetologist on the
space station and to the approaching Cybermen, to whom gold is deadly.
Sarah succumbs to the "plague", actually caused by a "Cybermat" given
to the planetologist by the Cybermen, and Dr. Who sends Sarah down to
the planet via transmat to cure her (the toxin is supposedly left
behind--the authors did not worry about the material of Sarah's
clothing, or Harry's--he went along).

                                James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

JPBion@MIT-AI  09/04/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARING!

The following messages are the last in the digest. They give away a
detail about the next Star Trek movie that everyone will almost
certainly hear of by the time the movie comes out, but readers who
really want to try to not have it spoiled for them may not wish to
read on. Don't say I didn't warn you...

------------------------------

Date: 03 Sep 1981 0939-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at SU-AI>
Subject: ``He's dead, Jim''

Spock's death can easily be cured in a much less technological (but
considerably more cinematic) manner.  Remeber the flashback??

Gee, remeber the time that........

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1981 1121-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Star Trek spoiler (movie)

On the subject of Spock getting killed off, at the Planetfest panel I
described in an earlier msg, Roddenbery was asked about this.  He said
he had heard the rumors also.  Apparently nothing is final yet.


                                Alan

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1981 2110-PDT
From: Barry Megdal <BARRY at CIT-20>
Subject: Spock's death

Gene Roddenberry was a panel member for the discussion that was the
final event of the recent Planetfest '81 here in Pasadena.  While the
other panel members (Ted Koppel, Carl Sagan, Ray Bradbury, and Bruce
Murray) ran off to JPL at one point to appear live on Koppel's
Nightline show, Roddenberry was left to "entertain" the auditorium of
several thousand space-fans during the commercials in the show (when
the screen went blank).  Someone in the audience asked him about the
new Star Trek movie, and his comments went something like "Yes, they
are making one, but I'm only involved as a consultant.  Yes, the plan
is to kill off Spock, but I'm fighting that idea".

So maybe its not that certain yet.....

Barry Megdal (Barry@CIT-20)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 00:18:28-PDT
From: ihnss!mhtsa!research!alice!wolit at Berkeley (c/o CSVAX.Upstill)
Subject:  Star Trek II

          Perhaps someone should tell Leonard Nimoy that he really can't
act worth beans, and that if it wasn't for us trekkies, he'd have gone
the way of Vaughn Meader long ago...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-SEP  	  "JPBion at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #58
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 SEP 1981 1439-EDT
From: JPBion at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #58
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sat, 5 Sep 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:
                SF-Movies - More on the mothership hatch,
          SF-Query - Name this book & identify these TV shows,
           SF-Topics - A land of Oz in Kansas & Leonard Nimoy &
                   the answers to all of our questions,
         SF-Books - Series SF: Riverworld & the Amber Series,
          SF-Spoilers - Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 05:32:08-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch@Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.Upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Origin of the mothership hatch

I'll take this piece of trivia on.  The only bottom opening hatch I
remember well was the hatch to the evacuation spaceship in "When
World's Collide" (circa 1950.)  The lighting isn't quite the same,
however.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 14:54 PDT
From: Sapsford at PARC-MAXC
Subject: What is the title?

[Mike: I can never remember whether it is safe to just send a message
to SF-Lovers @ MIT-AI, hence am routing this through you.]

A friend of mine remembers a very interesting story in which the
protagonist finds himself in possession of an extra sense - vision
(but infra-red)!  He is raised in a society living in caves without
light.  The members carry clickers (or a couple of rocks) around and
use hearing to navigate by.  Eventually the hero breaks out of the
caves into the light of day.  Anyway, I seem to remember this story
as an old classic, but cannot recall either the title of the exact
details (these may be off a bit).  Can anyone help out?

[Ed. note: Actually, "MDP" is a forwarding adress at MIT-AI. Every
 piece of mail MDP gets is sent to the SF-LOVERS file. JPBion@AI is
 also a forwarding address, so you can send messages to that. My
 REAL MIT address is JPB@AI; if you send a piece of SF-LOVERS mail
 there, it probably won't ever find its way to the digest. - Joel]

------------------------------

Date: 5 September 1981 03:36-EDT
From: Eric P. Scott <EPS at MIT-AI>
Subject: Can anybody place these? (TV)
Both of these were shown on TV years ago.  Anybody remember
their titles or who starred in them?

An archaeologist digs up a black cube with a metal funnel
on top, which he gives to his son.  The boy accidentally
knocks it off his desk to the ground, and it breaks open,
revealing some crystals.  He takes them in his hand and
falls asleep.  He dreams of a planet with two moons.
He learns that the cubes record the history of the planet,
and they are intended to be "read" by wearing a skullcap
with a wire and plug attached (and inserting the plug
in the funnel on top of the cube).  I believe he actually
goes to the planet, too.

Several wealthy/influential people are invited to a party
at a hotel on an isolated island.  For various reasons,
they can't leave.  There is an electrical storm, and dead
fish wash up on the beach.  The (surviving) guests decide
that they must be dead too.  This starred Cloris Leachman.

                                        --Eric

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 05:33:43-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!grumpy.smb@Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.Upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Life Imitates Art

MINNEOLA, Kan. (UPI) -- If Buddy Piper has his way, a sparkling city
of Oz complete with a kindly wizard will soon rise out of the
colorless Kansas prairie.

Piper, 57, an entrepreneur, wants southwest Kansas -- the land where
tornadoes whirl away unsuspecting daydreamers -- to have a town
called Oz.  He envisions a grand resort where patrons can attend a
performance of "The Wizard of Oz" and their children can become jolly
Munchkins in paper costumes.

During the winter, he hopes the Emerald City Inn could become a
meeting spot for psychologists holding workshops for people in search
of self-esteem or courage.  The area would also be a retirement
community where elderly artisans could perform their crafts.

Piper already proclaims himself the "Wizard of Oz, Kansas," even
though he admits financial backers might be hard to come by.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 10:49:31-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: "...tell Leonard Nimoy that he really can't act..."

    I think you've got your characters mixed up---perhaps you're
thinking of Shatner? Among other substantial and well-done acting jobs
since STAR TREK, one of Nimoy's that stands out is his appearance in
the lead role (Martin Dysart (?), the psychiatrist) in EQUUS while it
was playing in New York. Being myself uncertain at that time
(Spring/Summer 1977) about whether he could act, I read as much of the
critical material about this as I could manage and found most of it to
be extremely favorable. One could argue certain similarities between
Spock and Dysart, but one could argue the same similarities between
both of them and any good acting part from Hamlet (at least) forward.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1981 1103-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: The answers to all your questions

It is a cold night on the ice planet Hoth, where the USS Enterprise
is docked, when Spock and Uhura decide to get cozy -- voila, their
son Luke Skywalker, who pricks his youthful finger on the thorn of
a clone bush, which quickly grows into Darth Vader, who, in the next
episode, we find has packed the blueprints to the Death Star in this
golden box resembling an Arc of the Covenant and shipped it off for
safekeeping to some small planet in the Milky Way -- meanwhile, in
episode 39, an aging Princess Leia, who is really the second cousin
of Han Solo's uncle Gort, finds herself stranded in a remote jungle
outpost where she is picked up by a seedy looking character named
Indy something-or-other in a boat called the African Queen, which
by Wookie ingenuity (Chewie was along for the ride) is souped up
into this Battlestar Gallactica, which takes off in pursuit of
Gene Roddenberry, George Lucas, Stephen Spielberg, Alec Guinnes
and Idi Amin, who we find is really the bounty hunter
BobbaAaAazzxx")(&)#)$-X$%czzspppputttttter-ssssiiizzlllee

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  4 Sep 1981 12:05-PDT
Subject: Riverworld and series SF
From: mike at RAND-UNIX

I've also noticed that series in SF have a tendency to start out
extremely well and then degrade into hack work.  Examples are
Riverworld, Dune, Amber, World of Tiers (Farmer, again)...

As Jim says:

    The only SF series springing to mind that doesn't go downhill
    is Asimov's Foundation. (Well, Known Space is uniformly
    excellent (except for Gift and some stories), but that's not a
    series in quite the same sense.)

    Any other exceptions or refutations?

One explanation is "regression towards the mean".  Our author normally
doesn't write very well, but just this once he writes something
wonderful.  Having been successful, he then sets out to write a
sequel, or sequels, but the later books tend towards his mean writing
ability, which isn't very good.

Possible exceptions to the "series go downhill" thesis:
        Earthsea Trilogy by LeGuin

        Skaith novels by Leigh Brackett

        The Sunset Warrior Trilogy by Eric Von Lustbader (in this,
             the second novel isn't very good, but the first and
             third are.)

Michael Wahrman

------------------------------

Date:     3 September 1981 1454-edt
From:     Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest  V4 #56 - sand & shadow

To Schauble at Multics: It should come as no surprise that TRotJ will
have many desert scenes, since at the end of TESB, Luke schedules a
rendezvous with Lando and Chewie on Tattouine.

To Stillman Sherman at Rutgers: Surely you jest!  The Amber series
is probably the all-time most disappointing SF series written.  It
certainly started with incredible promise, but by the time the "The
Hand of Oberon" came out, it appeared that the promise would not be
fulfilled.  When "The Courts of Chaos" came out, rather than wait for
the paper back to be published, I eagerly read a friend's book club
edition; it was such a piece of hacked-up garbage that I was glad I
didn't waste the $2.50 or so on the paper back.  Zelazny has shown
many times that he is capable of writing some of the best SF around
("Lord of Light", "The Keys to December", "A Rose for Ecclesiastes",
"For a Breath I Tarry", etc., etc.); he has also shown that he has
become one of the laziest SF authors still writing.  How long has it
been since one of his short stories was picked by Wollheim, Carr, or
Dozois for inclusion in an annual "best of" anthology?  Ten to fifteen
years ago, he was one of the dominating short story writers in the
genre; today, his stories are almost all tired reworkings of the same
old themes.  At least Fritz Leiber's change-wind stories still come
out entertaining; Zelazny's shadow-walking has become dull and
uninspired, as if he himself is bored by his stories. While it's true
that short story writing is not very profitable in today's SF market,
novels make more money than ever before (at least those written by
"name" authors); yet Zelazny's latest novels ("The Changeling", "The
Changing Land", "Roadmarks") all show the same tepid, uninterested
style. Also, while the characters of his protagonists used to be
pretty strongly developed, even they are becoming cardboard cutouts;
compare Corwin or (Maha)Sam(atman) to Dilvish or Red Dorakeen.

Whew! Sorry 'bout the polemics, but I get really upset at Zelazny
'cause I know what he can do when he wants to.

By the way, anybody out there know when Gene Wolfe's "The Sword of
the Lictor" is scheduled to be published? (I have heard that it has
already been written, but it's not listed in the last "Forthcoming
Books".) Or, whether or not George R. R. Martin's "Sand Kings" is
really going to be made into a movie?

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date:  5 Sep 1981 0747-PDT
From: CSD.JPBion at SU-SCORE (Joel P. Bion)
Subject: Spoiler

The following messages are the last in the digest.  They give away
many details about (you guessed it!) Star Wars and The Empire Strikes
Back.  Readers who have not seen these movies (and also have not read
these books) may not wish to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 10:10 PDT
From: Meyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: TESB

When I saw The Empire Strikes Back, I noticed something I haven't seen
mentioned yet, but which I think will be important in the next movie.
After Han is "frozen", Lando kneels down by the control panel attached
to the block that contains Solo and fiddles with the controls, then
announces that he's alive.  It was my impression that what he probably
did was reset the timer so that Han would come out of it earlier than
he was intended to. Anyone else get that impression?
                        Marc Meyer

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  4 Sep 1981 11:17-PDT
Subject: SW questions answered
From: jim at RAND-UNIX

     (Q) What was Han afraid of in the beginning of TESB?

     (A) Jabba the Hut had put a price on his head.  You may remember
         that in SW Han explained to Greedo (the green guy) that he
         had no choice but to jettison Jabba's cargo when the
         imperials neared.  Greedo thought that was insufficient and
         was either going to blow Han away or take him to Jabba.

         In the book Han says: "General, I think it's time for me to
         move on..."  The General compliments him on his abilities,
         and he responds, "Thank you, General, but if I don't pay off
         Jabba the Hut I'm a walking dead man."

         Again from the book, Han is talking to Leia in the corridor,
         she says "I thought you had decided to stay."  Han: "That
         bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell changed my mind."
         No idea where Ord Mantell is.

         In the movie it sounds like "Ord Mandell" instead of
         "Mantell" as in the book.

         Who was Luke's mother?

         Well, if he's a clone he doesn't have one!

------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1981 at 1517-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: Re: Han and the bounty hunters

Yes, Han mentions an incident with another bounty hunter. After he
leaves General Riekann(sp?) Leia follows him out and is mad (upset,
sad) that he is leaving:

   Leia: I thought you had decided to stay.
   Han:  Well, that bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mandell
         changed my mind.

We are then to assume that during the Rebels' search for a new
base between Episode 4 and 5, they (or at least a group of them)
encountered a bounty hunter on a planet or base of some sort called
Ord Mandell. Since Han is now worried about paying off Jabba, I would
think he had a close call with the bounty hunter. He sees the Rebel
forces are pretty well set up so they don't HAVE to have him around
anymore and he had better get that contract off his head. In the book
STAR WARS, Jabba came and talked to Han between the time he fried
Greedo and the time Ben and Luke showed up at docking bay 94. He was
upset at Han for killing Greedo but since Han was such a good
smuggler, he was willing to let him make this run, get the money, and
come back and pay him. He warned Han, however, that if he skipped out,
he'd put a price on Han's head so high that there wouldn't be a safe
place for Han to hide in the entire galaxy.
  I think I'd try to pay him, too.
-king

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 14:36:37-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Reply-To: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.Upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Luke's parentage (possible spoiler)

Re: Mitchell Schwartz's comments

    I forget the name, but at least in the book, Owen and Beru have
    another last name other than Skywalker, which would be the case if
    Owen was Luke's father's brother. The impression I was left with
    (mention by Owen and Beru?) was that Beru was Cmdr. Skywalker's
    sister who married Owen the moisture farmer.

Why do you assume that a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, (a)
a woman takes her husband's name; (b) that last names reflect ancestry
in any sense.  I'm fairly serious about this latter: given the meaning
of most of the names, a good case can be made that people in that
culture (those cultures) selected their own name, especially surname,
when they came of age.  But in that case, what does Ben Kenobi's (sp?)
last name mean?  "Can obey" is one suggestion I've heard.

    Here's a neat one for you all: who was Luke's mother? Why do we
    hear nothing of her?

Now THAT was discussed in the spoiler section.  Or -- could *Luke* be
a clone?

------------------------------

Date: 5 September 1981 02:58-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Filming Location for "Revenge of the Jedi"

  If I am not mistaken, before Lando departed with Chewie to look for
Han, Luke and he discussed the fact that they were to rondevos back on
tatooine. Rather than go back into the Sahara to film the sequence, I
think that they are going to film it in a more accessable location.

--INSANE

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-SEP  	  "JPBion at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #59
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 SEP 1981 1103-EDT
From: JPBion at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #59
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sun, 6 Sep 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:
                      SF-TV - Responses to query,
          SF-Topics - Star Wars Speical Effects and SIGGRAPH,
       SF-Books - Series that do and series that don't degenerate,
       SF-Spoiler - More on Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 1981 12:53:24-PDT
From: IngVAX.kalash at Berkeley
Subject: movies and Wolfe


        The movie about strange cubes with funnels on them is based on
a novel by Murray Leinster called "The Wailing Asteroid". While I
don't remember the name of the movie, I do remember that it wasn't a
TV movie, and that it was VERY bad.

        Last I heard about "Sword of Lictor" it was written, and
scheduled for late this year (maybe early next). As a comment, if this
book is as good as the previous two, then it can be added to the list
of series which doesn't go downhill.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date:      5 Sep 81 16:38:35-EDT (Sat)
From:      Richard Turner <rturner@darcom-hq>
Subject:   Digest response

In response to the query from Eric P. Scott <EPS at MIT-AI> (Digest V4
#58) regarding the TV show where:

        Several wealthy/influential people are invited to a party
        at a hotel on an isolated island.  For various reasons,
        they can't leave.  There is an electrical storm, and dead
        fish wash up on the beach.  The (surviving) guests decide
        that they must be dead too.  This starred Cloris Leachman.

I believe this was "Haunts of the Very Rich" which was inspired by a
short story in Playboy magazine. I think this story and the subsequent
TV drama had something to do with the beginnings of "Fantasy Island"
also.

Rick
(rturner@darcom-hq)

------------------------------
Date:  4 Sep 1981 2350-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: More on SIGGRAPH and Lucasfilms

  I, too, was at SIGGRAPH.  There were various demos of Xwing type
fighters, especially the earlier mentioned III film, but none by
LucasFilms.  I partied with a bunch of Lucasfilmers one night, and
they told me that Lucas wouldn't allow any public showing of their
computer animation until it was completely and unerringly
anti-aliased.  (for them as aren't computer hackers this means they
must overcome some problems with present day cmputer graphics.  There
are ways of removing some of the problems with resolution effects
(called aliasing) but not any that are very cost effective on a
massive scale).  I'll be happy to talk more about aliasing and
anti-aliasing, but I think that the more interesting fact for this
mailing list is that it will be a while yet before anyone from LUCAS
Films shows anything at a conference.

  -Jim Hendler

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 1981 15:06 PDT
From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: doesn't go downhill

Blish's Cities in Flight is an exception.  Of the four novels, the
second one ("A Life for the Stars") is lousy and the other three are
very good.

        Larry

------------------------------

Date:  6 Sep 1981 0540-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: series that didn't degenerate

     Perhaps these are not really "series" in the same sense, but I
can think of several which haven't - the Middle Earth books by Tolkien
(5 major books, 1 book of poetry, 1 songbook, and 1 collection of
short stories published posthumously), the Dragonrider books by
McCaffrey (2 trilogies and 1 short story), the Thomas Covenant books
by Donaldson (1 trilogy and 1 book of a second trilogy), and the Deep
Space books (the Ransom trilogy) by Lewis.

     That isn't to say that these books don't have flaws.  The Ransom
trilogy gets into very heavy theology towards the end that many find
hard to stomach.  Some people find the violence and the anti-hero
nature of Thomas Covenant to be a turn-off.  The Dragonrider books are
plagued by errors to the point that you wonder if McCaffrey has been
the victim of "helpful" editing or if she is just incapable of
remembering basic facts about the world and the people she's created.
Some of the Middle Earth books (notably The Silmarillion, which I
consider a masterpiece above and beyond The Lord of the Rings) require
a true addict to follow through; many are turned off by the "childish"
nature of The Hobbit, still others find the first several chapters of
LotR to be tiresome reading.

     However, with the possible exception of the Ransom trilogy I have
enjoyed all of these books and heartily recommend any of them.  I
would also venture to state that for the most part the books have
gotten better with the later books instead of worse.  I doubt very
much that Donaldson was planning a follow-up trilogy to the original
Thomas Covenant books, since The Power that Preserves rather neatly
wraps up everything to a conclusion.  The Wounded Land, however,
re-opens the saga and is in fact more powerful than the previous
books.  I see some parallels to Middle Earth; The Wounded Land
resembles the corruption of Numenor although I am unsure whether this
is intention or not.

-- Mark --

------------------------------

Date: 09/05/81 21:22:09
From: ZEMON@MIT-MC
Subject:  series in sf

        There are a number of series that qualify because they don't
actually go /downhill/ (they may, in some eyes, be uniformly bad, but
that's another story....)

        The infamous blood-and-thunder LENSMAN series seem to be a
candidate.  On the other hand, perhaps these books were incapable of
going downhill, being at the bottom already.  Not wishing to be
submerged beneath piles of netmail from outraged die-hard E.E. Doc
Smith fans, I would like to point out that /I/ liked the series (and
still do.)

        Gene Wolfe's /excellent/ BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, about half
finished (consisting of THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER and THE CLAW OF THE
CONCILLIATOR, with THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR due out sometime in
December,) did not go downhill, but we'll see how it turns out when it
is all published.

        Zenna Henderson's short stories on The People deserve at least
an honorable mention; they may not rate as a /series/ (the stories
are only loosely connected, for the most part) and probably belong in
the same category as most of H.P. Lovecraft's work. (I don't mean
horror, I mean a collection of stories based on the same basic
groundwork.  There are probably a lot of stories that fall into this
category.)

        C.J. Cherryh's MORGAINE and FADED SUN series certainly do not
go downhill.  I /highly/ recommend these.

        M. A. Foster's loose series on the Ler (THE GAMEPLAYERS OF
ZAN, THE WARRIORS OF DAWN, and THE DAY OF THE KLESH) does not get
worse, but perhaps only because the stories simply involve the same
universe rather than being a close-knit series.

        On the other side of the coin, there are a number of series
that do indeed go downhill :

        James P. Hogan's series on the gentle giants of Ganymede.
This series sits in a box beneath my bookshelves like a bad dream set
to paper.

        Phillip Farmer's RIVERWORLD and WORLD OF TIERS series have
also been put into the box.  I still wince at the last 50pp of THE
MAGIC LABYRINTH.

        Richard C. Meredith's timelines trilogy (AT THE NARROW
PASSAGE, <some title I forget>, and VESTIGES OF TIME) counts as one of
the worst series I have ever read.  Actually, AT THE NARROW PASSAGE is
pretty good, but the series (true to form) goes rapidly downhill from
there.

-Landon-

------------------------------

Date:  6 Sep 1981 0740-PDT
From: CSD.JPBion at SU-SCORE (Joel P. Bion)
Subject: Spoiler Warning

                    SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!!

The following messages are the last in the digest. They give away many
details about, of all things, Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.
Readers who have not seen these movies (and also have not read these
books (and have not heard the record, etc. etc.)) may not wish to read
any further.

                                        -Joel

------------------------------

Date:  5 Sep 1981 1111-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #56, Lucasfilm in Arizona

During the evacuation sequence in "The Empire Strikes Back," Luke
tells some fellow fighter pilots, "Meet you at the rendezvous point on
Tatooine."  It seems reasonable to suppose that Lucas is going to film
some Tatooian scenes in Arizona.

On the other hand, it would seem foolish for Luke to return to his
"home" planet; it's the first place Vader would look.

                                          -   o
                                         -  -/-->
                                        -   O~\_

                                        Roger

------------------------------

Date: 3 September 1981 2337-EDT
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: SFL V4 #56: Revenge of Jedi set

So, shock and surprise at the use of Arizona as a set? Might some of
RotJ take place on a desert planet? Gosh I wonder where. Let us turn
back and reflect on the end of tESB.

Han Solo, Corellian space pilot extrordinaire is being taken back to
Mos Eisley space port on the planet Tatooine where the Bounty Hunter
Boba Fet will earn a bounty from the underworld figure Han owes money
to. (Recall if you will the shootout in the Cantina in Star Wars).

Lando Calrissian and Chewbacca are off to save Han (if they can) in
the Millenium Falcon. They will meet Luke at "the rendez-vous at
Tatooine."

Without using too much brains, picture:

Luke back on his home turf, attempting to pull Tatooine into
rebellion- Lando and Chewie running about the grimy and gritty streets
of Mos Eisley with a large slab of Han-
Much trouble as the Empire closes in-
The other appears in time to help Luke, but not in time to stop Han
from scrificing himself for the Princess and the rebellion.

I am from NY, and have no connections with the Lucas empire, but this
obviousness occurred to me within five minutes of walking out of tESB
last summer. Besides, Arizona is much cheaper than Tunisia again......

                                        mitch

PS pardon the cynicism

------------------------------

Date:  4 Sep 1981 at 2335-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SW: NITS AND NEPHEWS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In SF-L 4, #55, jim at RAND-UNIX chews over some old points in the SW
(=STAR WARS) saga.  As the saga's Penultimate Fan I am always glad
when somebody throws them out for discussion again, even if I have to
disagree.

Like with his referring to "all human Jedi masters (including the
Emperor)".  One pickable nit here is that "master" is ambiguous.  Is
Jim using it in the sense of "expert", or of "teacher"?  In the films,
it is used in the 2nd sense of Yoda, and applies to both Yoda and Ben.
(Yoda instructed Ben, who in his turn had Vader and Luke as pupils.)
But "master" in the 1st sense, as "expert" occurs in the lines:

   VADER:  When I left you, I was but the learner.... Now, \I/ am
           the master.
   BEN:    Only a master of evil, Darth.

with the implication that one may be a master of the Force (albeit the
dark side) withOUT being a Jedi \knight/, whatever the achievement of
that "knighthood" may entail.

Which leads to a related nit-- there is no basis for supposing that
manipulation of the Force was restricted to the Jedi, and therefore
none for assuming the Emperor was even partially Jedi-trained as Vader
had been.

Then Jim asks if we know whether Uncle Owen is Luke's paternal or
maternal uncle, to which the only answer is, "No, and quite possibly
neither one".  In addition to being brother to one of Luke's parents,
he could just as well be uncle-by-marriage, with Aunt Beru as sister
to one of the aforesaid parents.  Or, "Uncle" can be a courtesy title
for a foster-parent.  The general assumption has been that Owen is
Luke's paternal uncle.  This was used in one issue of the spin-off SW
comics, but those are not "Gospel", and it seems less likely than any
of the other possibilities (on the basis of the difference in family
names, and physical dissimilarity.  <The latter is also a point
against Vader in the paternity question.>)

From a psychological point of view, Owen's attitude toward Luke would
be most easily accounted for if Luke's mother had been Owen's "little
sister", especially a cherished younger sister.  His resentment of his
brother-in-law, Skywalker, who left to "follow old Obi-Wan on some
damn-fool idealistic crusade" makes more sense in such a situation
than if it was his own brother, or someone related to Beru, or the
father of a foster-child he had taken to raise (and, as would be
normal in a frontier society, to use on the farm).

And as for-- "OB-1 reminds one of the droid designations, which are
spelled out in the credits as See-threepio and Artoo-detoo (if memory
serves)", I doubt those spellings, but will check out the credits.
Ever since I first saw SW (40-some times ago), I, too, have thought it
strange that the name was only a short vowel away from "OB-1".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-SEP  	  "JPBion at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #60
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 SEP 1981 1310-EDT
From: JPBion at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #60
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Mon, 7 Sep 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:
                     SF-Topics - 1981 HUGO WINNERS,
               SF-Movies - More on the mothership hatch,
       SF-Trivia - Raiders of the Lost Ark actor in a commercial?,
          SF-Books - More on series that go uphill or downhill,
         SF-Spoiler - Immortality in the works of E. R. Eddison
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  6 Sep 1981 2247-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: HUGO winners for 1981

BEST NOVEL:
        THE SNOW QUEEN, by Joan D. Vinge

BEST NOVELLA:
        "Lost Dorsai", by Gordon R. Dickson

BEST NOVELETTE:
        "The Cloak and the Staff", by Gordon R. Dickson

BEST SHORT STORY:
        "Grotto of the Dancing Deer", by Clifford Simak

BEST NON-FICTION BOOK:
        COSMOS, by Carl Sagan

BEST PRO EDITOR:
        Edward L. Ferman (F & SF)

BEST PRO ARTIST:
        Michael Whelan

BEST FANZINE:
        LOCUS (Charles N. Brown)

BEST FAN WRITER:
        Susan Wood (posthumously)

BEST FAN ARTIST:
        Victoria Poyser

BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION:
        THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (Lucasfilm)


THE JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD (for Best New Writer)
        Somtow Sucharitkul
------------------------------

Date:  6 September 1981 13:35 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Mothership Hatch

Re: Bryan Howes" conjecture that it is from When Worlds Collide--
close, but no cigar.  Really, folks.  You are all supposed to be of
the cinema generation.  Not only did this appear in an SF film which
has to be on everyody's "must see" list, the scene I talk about
appeared as a still in at least one survey of SF films.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 05 Sep 1981 1802-PDT
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Very random, possibly trivia?

While watching TV last night I saw a comercial for BMWs.  It starred a
guy who has multiple garages with electric doors, inside of each is a
BMW.  I could have sworn that the guy was Belloq (sp?) from Raiders of
the Lost Ark (his accent was slight, but there).  Can anyone confirm
or refute this observation?

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  6 Sep 1981 11:54-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Series going uphill

        I would add to the list of series that didn't degrade, the
Demon Princes pentology (quintology? Latin or Greek in this series?)
by Jack Vance.  He may have taken fifteen years to get around to
finishing it, but the last is as good as the first.

------------------------------

Date:  6 September 1981 1417-EDT (Sunday)
From: Bob.Walker at CMU-10A
Subject:  A SF series that goes uphill

   E. E. (Doc) Smith's Lensman series and Skylark series seem to me to
go uphill (as opposed to downhill).  The first book or so of the
Lensman series is kind of weak for modern SF fans (written in the
1940's, if I recall correctly), but things build up fast.  Both series
are in the old space-opera vein, and well worth reading.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 1020-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Subject: series in sf
Ben Bova's 'Kinsman' series, including the &Kinsman& collection,
&Millenium& and &Colony& (from the same universe a few decades later),
is another example of continuing excellence in a series.

&Millenium& is my favorite of the group.  It is set in 1999, and
features Chet Kinsman and his moonbase crew struggling to keep the
ever-worsening relations between the US and the Soviets from erupting
into nuclear war.  'Nuff said, I don't want to earn a spoiler.


                                          -   o
                                         -  -/-->
                                        -   O~\_

------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1981 1201-EDT
From: Marc Donner at CMU-10A
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #58

Some comments on series:

Since several fantasy series were entered into the running (Earthsea)
I will submit some of my ideas of SF and Fantasy series that do not
die with a whimper.

Zenna Henderson's stories about 'the People' (The People, no different
flesh; Holding Wonder; ...) are uniformly good.  This 'series' is more
a collection of related stories in the fashion of Niven's Known Space,
but it is quite good throughout.

Anne McCaffrey's 'Dragonriders of Pern' are excellent throughout,
though it might be argued that the last story 'The White Dragon' isn't
as good as the early stories.  McCaffrey is getting very tired of
writing about Pern and wants to stop, but her public won't let her
alone.  She had the same problem with 'The Ship Who Sang' and wrote a
sequel which resolved some of the stuff from the original, but her
heart was clearly not in it.

I am amazed that no one has mentioned Gordon Dickson's 'Soldier Ask
Not' series.  I think that this is one of the finest collections of
stories to come around in a long time.  It has more internal cohesion
than the 'Known Space' stories, but less than 'Foundation'.  'Soldier
Ask Not' is quite good, but I think that it is probably the poorest of
the stories.  I guess that this series is formally known as the
'Childe Cycle'.  I think that 'Tactics of Mistake' is a lot of fun,
though perhaps it explores the characters less deeply than some of the
other stories.

--Marc--

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 0933-PDT
From: CSD.JPBion at SU-SCORE (Joel P. Bion)
Subject: Spoiler warning!
                  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!!

      The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses
immortality in the works of E.R. Eddison. Readers who are not familiar
with Eddison's works ("The Worm Ouroboros", "Mistress of Mistresses"
and "A Fish Dinner in Memison") may not wish to read any further.

                                        JP

------------------------------

Date:  4 September 1981 11:40 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Spoiler Message: Immortality in the works of E.R.Eddison

E. R. Eddison developed a view of immortality which is mystical and
metaphysical, and provides an interesting contrast to the
materialistic theories which have dominated the previous discussions.

Eddison wrote three major works: "The Worm Ouroboros" (1922),
"Mistress of Mistresses" (1935), and "A Fish Dinner in Memison"
(1940).  All three are in print as Del Rey paperbacks.  "Mistress" and
"Fish Dinner" deal extensively with immortality; "Worm" is very much
an overture to the major work.

As outlined in a prefatory note to "Fish Dinner," Eddison was
concerned with immortal souls and not immortal bodies.  "Soul" in this
sense is not a formal theological concept but a token for "essence,"
"personality," "psyche," or "consciousness."  Souls reside in a cosmos
which is organized on the basis of a male-female duality.  The two
elements of the cosmos are eternally interdependent and eternally
interacting.  The Female, whose metaphor is Aphrodite, is passive,
procreative, and contemplative.  The Male is active and has a power
whose only end is the service and amusement of the Female:

"My pleasure is my power to please my mistress

 My power is my pleasure in that power."

It is, by crude analogy, a Dungeons and Dragons universe, with the
Dungeonmistress setting the structure in which the players strive, yet
still letting chance play its part and death occur.  The game has no
winners, no losers, and no object save the adventure itself.  If you
play well in this world, which to Eddison means according to the
strict rules of chivalric behaviour, then your soul achieves Valhalla.

In this enchanted land, which he calls "Zimiamvia,", the adventure
continues on a different plane of existence (for the adventure is its
own best reward).  Souls may be replicated in several forms, so that
you may find yourself contending with yourself, or be merged, so that
you may acquire the traits of one you had deeply loved in the material
world.  A Zimiavian day is a lifetime, and death is but the
interruption of memory.

On this latter point Eddison is adamant; eternal memory to his view is
the curse of eternal boredom. As he has one of his characters say,
"Yes, even and were we Gods,...best, may be, not to know.  Best not to
know our own changelessness, our own eternal power and unspeakable
majesty...For there is, may be, in doubts and uncertainties a salt or
savour, without which, all should be turned at last unto weariness and
no zest remain."

"Worm" touches only lightly on these themes.  A great adventure takes
place (somewhat creakily on the planet Mercury), and Aphrodite's
manifestation visits the adventurers at its end and notes their dismay
that the game is over; her reward is to reset their world to the
beginning and let them do it all over again.  It is to my mind the
most satisfactory ending to an adventure story that anyone has
devised.

"Mistress" introduces Zimiamvia.  An exemplary soul is transported
there, to adventure and encounter himself, his loved one, and
Aphrodite.

"Fish Dinner," whose action immediately precedes that of "Mistress,"
has the same exemplary soul moving back and forth between the two
worlds.  It describes his winning and losing his love, and contains,
in the meal of its title, an extended scene that gives a whole new
meaning to the term "the problem of the dining philosophers."

Eddison writes in a lush style which is riddled with archaisms of both
word and syntax.  Word-lovers like myself find it hypnotic;
philistines find it unreadable.  An Oxford English Dictionary is
mandatory if you have never read much Elizabethan prose.  He also has
his failings: his characters are occasionally a little too much larger
than life, and he is in love with long, indulgent descriptions of
great halls and castles, right down to the color of the veins in the
marble.  But his touch with feudal power struggles, both overt and
covert, is superb, his scenes of courtly lovemaking are a civilized
contrast to Heavy Metal hypermacho, and his self-assured women are
some of the most fascinating in all of English literature; one, the
lovely Lady Fiorinda, rejects her lover's proposal of marriage with
the classic line:

"I would rather be my own mistress--and yours."

People who are offended by the blatant sexism of all this should leave
it alone and reread "The Female Man" by Joanna Russ.  People who have
an open mind and are willing to struggle a little with stylistic and
structural complexity will find these three books among the most
difficult and most rewarding of the genre.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-SEP  	  "JPBion at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #61
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 SEP 1981 1143-EDT
From: JPBion at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #61
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Tue, 8 Sep 1981          Volume 4 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:
         SF-Topics - Immortality in Asimov's "The Last Trump",
       SF-Books - "The Spectre General" & A fourth Eddison book?,
   SF-Movies - More on Luke's last name & More on the bounty hunters,
               SF-Fandom - The Ultimate Star Wars Fan,
   SF-Series - Still more debate on series that go uphill or downhill
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 06:09:48-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Reply-To: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.Upstill at Berkeley>
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: religion and immortality

Asimov's story "The Last Trump" (which appeared in "Earth is Room
Enough" had an interesting comment on the hereafter:

        "...  We face eternity now.  We have no universe left, no
        outside phenomena, no emotions, no passions.  Nothing but
        ourselves and thought.  We face an eternity of introspection,
        when all through history we have never known what to do
        with ourselves on a rainy Sunday."

To be sure, he was talking about Hell....

------------------------------

Date:  8 Sep 1981 0824-EDT
From: Ginder at CMU-20C
Subject: The Spectre General

I don't recall a story or book entitled "The Inspector General", but I
do remember a story called "The Spectre General" by Theodore Cogswell.
It is about an isolated war base of "Imperial Space Marines" of a
"Galactic Protectorate".  The people at the base maintain a pretense
of military organization even though they've been out of contact with
the rest of the galaxy for a long while.  They periodically prepare
for a visit from "the Inspector General" from fleet headquarters.  (No
more to avoid spoiler.)

The story is copyright 1952 by Street & Smith Publications, Inc.  -- I
don't know what mag they were publishing at that time.  It appears in
"The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, vol. 2B".
-Joe

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 1343-MDT
From: Spencer W. Thomas <THOMAS at UTAH-20>
Subject: Eddison

Wasn't there a fourth book?  I'm sure I heard about this recently.
This makes \Ouroborous/ almost a separate work (I know it seemed very
different to me), maybe ala \The Hobbit/, followed by a trilogy (The
Zimiamvian trilogy?).  Can anyone confirm or deny this?
=S

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 0044-EDT
From: MLEASE at BBNC (Michael V. Lease)
Subject: Star Wars; Luke's last name...

Re:  Steven Bellovin's remarks (SFL V4 #58)

The assumption that last names reflect ancestry is not unfounded;
recall that the Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back refers to Luke
as "Son of Skywalker"...  QED.

Cheers,
Mikey

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 1981 14:10:03-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: TESB bounty query

   The scene between Jabba and Han (just before the departure from
Tatooine in SW) also shows up in the original comic book and in the
script section of THE ART OF STAR WARS; I've heard it said that this
and the earlier scene on Tatooine with Biggs were actually filmed,
then cut to hold the total run time close to 2 hours.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 1981 00:40:22-PDT
From: decvax!duke!chico!harpo!mhtsa!research!sjb at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!...!research!sjb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
In-reply-to: Mitchell.Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: Uncle Owen and Aunt

In the book, Star Wars, Owen had the last name of Lars.  I assume that
means Beru did too.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 at 2250-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STAR WARS FANS AND NAMES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Got a message from Russ Lear asking who was The Ultimate Star Wars
Fan if I was only the Penultimate.  So for those new to SF-L since
back when TESB was freshly out-- see the SF-LOVERS Archive of messages
relating to SW-- it's a girl in Houston.  She not only has the most
fantabulous SW collection, but has become a personal (transatlantic
telephone calling) friend of Dave Prowse and Tony Daniels (with whom
she stayed on one of her annual fannish trips to Britain <she's also
deep into Prisoner and Dr Who fandom>).

 I had a glorious weekend visiting her about a month ago.  Got to hear
the whole SW radio series non-stop (Vader and Leia were particularly
poorly cast!  The latter comes across as a sweet-but-earnest little
fairy tale princess rather than the bitchy but dedicated autocrat of
the role as created by Carrie Fisher, and it just doesn't work.) One
of the most memorable events of the weekend was when TUSWF played a
video segment from LORD OF THE RINGS.  Smirking, she challenged me to
identify the actor who did the beautiful, rich, noble, baritone voice
of the Elf lord, Legolas.  Understandably, even tho I'd heard his
natural voice, it never occurred to me to connect that voice of
Legolas with the high, prissy tones of C-3PO!

 RE: Uncle Owen's last name-- it's "Lars", which even more than
"Organa" and (probably) "Kenobi", has no direct significance such as
"Skywalker" or "Darklighter" and even "Solo" do.  Knowing Lucas
originally wrote the part with Mifune (the SHOGUN warlord) in mind
would account for the Japanese quality of "Obi-Wan Kenobi", but as a
linguist, I can't help wondering why it both begins and ends with
"o-b-i".

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 1981 15:17 PDT
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #58 (SF-Series)

It seems to me that the series which are written as a piece (The
Foundation Trilogy, Earthsea, Lord of the Rings, DragonFlight et al,
etc.) are usually better than those which are written at the behest of
fans and editors eager for more of the same.

Dune was such a big success that everybody and his brother had to have
more.  Yet Herbert's idea was essentially finished with the first
book. How do you write a good book when you don't have any good ideas
left?

        --      Larry           --

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 2023-EDT
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: Amber Retort

  Little did I suspect that one innocent paragraph would lead to such
full scale discussion! I don't have a hell of a lot of time to spend,
so here goes:
           1. The Amber series is a superb work of imagination. It
stands alone in its scope and delicate plotting. Book 5 is worthless
but is not necessary to the story, as the other four novels quite
neatly explain the situation.
           2. Zelazney's success or failure in recent times is
irrelevent to the quality of Amber. And by the way Tom, I totally
disagree with your opinion of Lord of Light. I think its Terribly
written.
           3. I enjoyed books 1&2 of the Earthsea Trilogy.
           4. The Covenant Series by Donaldson is lousy, pure and
simple.
           5. The Dying Earth collection by Vance is terrific.  So the
bottom line is this my little droogs : taste seems to vary a great
deal. Go with your instincts and don't Force anything.....
                          Steve Sherman

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 at 2354-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SF SERIES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Something to keep in mind-- one of the reasons series sometimes
s-e-e-m to go downhill is that the reader (understandably) cannot
always "re-capture that first fine careless rapture" of encountering a
particular fictional universe.

 For example, I suspect that whichever of James White's "Sector
General Hospital" books one reads first will tend to seem the best.
Some series, however, don't respond as well to being entered in
indiscriminate order.  Dickson's "Dorasi/Childe Cycle" does pretty
well, but McKillip's <superb> "Riddlemaster" trilogy does not.  And
Tolkien's LotR, being really one 3-vol. book, is especially needful of
taking in proper sequence, tho its prequel, THE HOBBIT may be may be
more acceptable to the adult reader if read after LotR.

 Some series neither ascend nor descend, but 'wobble'-- very long ones
are probably particularly prone to this.  For a notable one, M.Z.
Bradley's "Darkover" books, in which the mid-late HERITAGE OF HASTUR
is generally considered outstanding.

 Tastes vary, of course, and I disagree that C.S. Lewis' "Ransom"
trilogy doesn't descend.  From a neutral (i.e., agnostic but not
antagonistic to Christianity) reader's point of view, in both the 2nd
and 3rd the preachy-ness interferes with the story-telling.  As for
Hogan's "Ganymede" series, the middle is my 2nd favorite of all his
books; but the other 2, the next-to-least and least liked.  And,
sometimes liking and quality don't jibe.  All of Kurtz' "Deryni/
Camber" books strike me as good, but the initial one, DERYNI RISING,
is the only one I really like, because it's the only one with an
"upper" ending.  (I hear the forthcoming one, when just about
everybody gets killed off in the great pogrom, is referred to by Kurtz
herself as a "3-Kleenex-box-er".  <sigh>)

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1981 (Monday) 1942-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Series, up and down
  Yah, series get better, series get worse.  I don't see why you
exclude series of shorter works set within a single universe.  Shall
we consider a series to be adequate if it has, oh, say, the equivalent
of 3 full volumes involving some central group of characters, as well
as extraneous works involving both the central and non-central
characters?
  --
  I have found that most series I have been incapable of finishing.
As they go downhill, I lose interest.  And stop reading.  I just guess
I'm not a compulsive finisher -- are there any others out there like
that?
  --
  Some other series...
   Heinlein's Future History...  2 full LazLong novels, several
    other novels, numerous short stories; has enuf material around
    the main chars to qualify.
   Mary Stewart's Arthurian legends (not read yet)
   Fred Saberhagen - Berzerker (now there's a series which didn't
    make it from short stories to novels!); the Dracula series
    (I'm not sure of the order, but all were passable.)
...and a few that couldn't get worse...
   Dr. Who books.  All equally shallow.  But this is a multi-author
    series.
   Lin Carter. One plot, 100 books.
    ...and some others
   Munn's Merlin series: Merlin's Ring; Merlin's Godson.  Two great
    books!
 ---
  But what makes a series go downhill?  I think it's mostly
exhaustion.  Not only of the author (although admittedly, s/he does
suffer from the combinatorial problems of consistancy, wanting to
write about new situations, etc.), but that of the *reader*.  We like
a book because of it interesting setting and characters.  But after a
few volumes, the characters get tiring, the settings old.  This is why
"Universe" series seem so much fresher - they can be placed in
different societies, different characters, and so on.
  Actually, Asprin's Thieves' World series (Thieves' World, Tales from
teh Vulgar Unicorn), allow a testing of author vs. reader freshness.
For those of you not familiar with this series, it is two (so far?)
volumes of short stories, all in one world (one city, even), with
interacting characters, but each story by a different author.
Excellent reading... if vols 3...  get tiring, it'll indicate that
reader exhaustion is a reason a series goes downhill.
  ---
   After reading the latest in Heinlein's Future History series
("'...the Number of the Beast'") again, I can't decide -- has the
series really gone downhill, or is it 20 years ahead of everything
else?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #62
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 SEP 1981 0859-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #62
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest           Fri, 11 Sep 1981        Volume 4 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - Back from Denver,
         SF Fandom - Gordy at OtherCon & WorldCon '83 site &
             Denvention SFL Party & '80 Novel Hugo query,
  SF Books - Answer ("Dark Universe") & "Spectre General" magazine &
 "Ship Who Sang" sequel & Immortality book query & 4th Eddison book &
    Series' trends ("Cities in Flight"/"Well World"/"Doc Savage"),
        SF Movies - Mothership hatch & Star Wars speculation &
                           Star Wars naming
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5:27am  Friday, 11 September 1981
From: The Moderator <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Back from Denver and No missing digests

    Hello again.  I'm back from Denver and I've finally recovered from
it.  You folks sent in a lot of interesting material while I was away!
Suddenly everyone started thinking Science Fiction.  You're going to
really enjoy the digests coming out of this rush.

    Just so you don't worry about having already missed some of the
gems coming in, this is our first digest since Tuesday, which numbered
Volume 4, Issue #61.

Happy reading,
Mike

------------------------------

Date:  8 Sep 1981 at 0030-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ D-E-E-E-E-LIGHTED ABOUT DICKSON ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 \I/ might not have been able to properly appreciate "The Cloak and
the Staff", but I'm still glad he got those Hugo's!

 If there are any Dickson devotees in this part of the country (or
sufficiently devoted from elsewhere), Gordy's to be GoH at College
Station (the A&M locale, tho the con's at the Ramada Inn, not on
campus) for OTHERCON in less than 2 weeks, Sept. 18-20.  Y'ALL COME!

 Other Guest Authors-- George R.R. Martin, Howard Waldrop, Leigh
                       Kennedy, & Steve Gould

 Movies-- The Canterville Ghost, On Borrowed Time, You Can't Take It
          With You, Zulu, On the Beach, The Ghost & Mrs. Muir, etc.

 Memberships-- $10 full con, $8 2-days, $5 1-day

 Lodging-- at Ramada Inn, $34 for a single, $6 each add'l body

 Info-- Write OTHERCON V, 203 Edge St., Bryan, TX 77801
        Call (713) 775-0692 or 779-2588


 Margaret Middleton, top Mid-South-West filker, will be there, with a
button-making gadget, and I'll make up some neat @-signs.  Let me know
if you're coming, and maybe there'll be enough of us "atters" for a
party.  We may even have The Ultimate Star Wars Fan as our OWN FGoH!

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1981 13:14:16-PDT
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Reply-to: "allegra!phr in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Denvention news

You forgot to mention the outcome of site selection:  Baltimore in '83
beat Australia by a 2 to 1 margin (I'm told).  I'm glad to see that
none of the sequels won the Best Novel Hugo - perhaps it will
encourage new material.  The recent trend toward double (Hugo and
Nebula) winners has always worried me, but this year I think the pros
showed better taste in spots.  Even if you win, you lose.

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 04:30 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: SF-Lovers party report

Simply a beautiful party, one of the best at the convention.

An unknown, but large, number of SF-Lovers, crammed into one of the
Marina's closet-like rooms. A bathtub full of soft drinks and bheer.
And, best of all, a large number of faces for which I had previously
had mailboxes. SF-Lovers T-shirts all over the place, RODOF should be
very proud of his work.

It's interesting to speculate on what some of these people are like
before you meet them face-to-face. I haven't been doing at all well
at guessing.

Some people from the local DEC office brought a terminal, which
promptly got pressed into service. (Yes, I did manage to get the
telephone put back together.)

And, to the person who was looking for one woman's high heel shoe,
yes, I do have it. What would you like me to do with it??

                        Can't wait for the next one

                        Paul

------------------------------
Date:  9 Sep 1981 1151-EDT
From: Ginder at CMU-20C
Subject: 1980 hugo winner

I hesitate to advertise my forgetfulness, but what novel won the 1980
Hugo?  (I'm so embarrassed .....)
-Joe

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 06:07:55-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Title query in SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #58

The book in question involving infrared vision and personal navigation
using sonar techniques is "Dark Universe" by Daniel F. Galouye (Bantam
Books, 1961.)  It is an *excellent* book.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 13:56:18-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "The Spectre General"

   Within SF, Street&Smith published (so far as I know) only
ASTOUNDING (later ANALOG), except for a very short-lived zine called
UNKNOWN (it was killed off by wartime paper shortages).  I have seen
the original cover for tSG; it's quite appropriate, showing half-naked
people with military-rank insignia in warpaint.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 at 1509-CDT
From: korner at UTEXAS-11
Subject: McCaffrey

        What's this about a sequel to "The Ship Who Sang?"
                -KMK

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 18:03:00-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!woods in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Immortality

  On the subject of immortality, I once read a book where some guy
goes into the 21st century when he falls asleep (pulled there by his
"twin soul", whose name was LEAH 9) and learns all this neat stuff
about psycho-kinesis and immortality.  His friends think he is crazy
until he is able to perform some psycho-kinesis tricks back in the
20th century.  All in all I really enjoyed this book, but the title
escapes me.  I think it was called \Macro Philosophy/ or something
like that.  Can someone help me out?  I would like to find a copy of
this book; it was one of my favorite books of all time.

                GREG

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 0012-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: Posthumous Eddison book (Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #61)

In response to Spencer Thomas's question about a fourth Eddison book:
Eddison died before completing "The Mezentian Gate", which concerned
the life of King Mezentius, the protagonist of "Fish Dinner in
Memison" and an avatar of the divine lover.  The book consists of
several chapters that are fully written as well as Eddison's notes for
the intermediate action.  As published, the book only serves to
augment the completed novels and is not worth reading stand-alone;
yet, for those like myself who finished "Memison" and "Mistress"
starving for more of this author's work, it is enjoyable.

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 2215-EDT (Wednesday)
From: David.Lamb at CMU-10A
Subject: series going downhill

A few days ago someone suggested that Blish's "Cities in Flight"
series was uniformly good except for the second story, "A Life for the
Stars."  This is actually evidence of the series declining, since
though it is second chronologically, it was written last.  Copyright
dates were

They Shall Have Stars   1957
A Life for the Stars    1962
Earthman Come Home      1955
The Triumph of Time     1958

I think that "Earthman Come Home" and "They Shall Have Stars" were the
best of the lot, with "Triumph" and "Life" noticeably lower quality.
Still good, though; Blish was a very good writer.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 09:56 PDT
From: DNELSON at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Riverworld and series SF

With regards to series in SF that do not degrade into hack work...

Please add...

        Jack Chalker's WELL WORLD SERIES(five volumes)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 11:42:33-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: SF-series

How about Doc Savage?  It seems to me that the quality rose,
plateaued, then went downhill around WW II.  About that time Johnny,
Renny, and the electrician (no, not THAT electrician), were dropped,
and Doc seemed to spend all his time fighting Nazis and brooding.

David Ungar

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1981 08:12:44-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Mothership hatch

Well, if it isn't the hatch from "When Worlds Collide" then it is
probably the hatch of one of the invader's ships from the George Pal
production of "War of the Worlds."

------------------------------

Date: 10 September 1981 0111-EDT (Thursday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject: Random Hypotheses

        This is a longshot, but could the inspiration for the
Mothership hatch in CE3K be the appearance of the dying Martian in the
film version of H. G. Wells' "War of the Worlds"?

        I think that Beru is Luke's father's sister. I also think that
Owen and Beru raised Luke from infancy, because Luke's mother died in
childbirth and Luke's father didn't think he could raise Luke properly
by himself. I have absolutely nothing to support this second
hypothesis with, but as far as I know, this has as much support as the
idea that Luke is a clone.                                        /DAC

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 12:15 PDT
From: Wenn.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SW Spoiler

What the Emperor said was "The Son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi." (to the best of my memory).  What makes you think that he was
talking about Luke?  Picture this:  The Emperor has foreseen that Luke
Skywalker's son is destined to be /the/ major force responsible for
the overthrow of the Empire in another ~20 years.  To avoid this he
ordered Darth to kill Luke.  Darth persuaded the Emperor to let him
try to corrupt Luke first, and if this failed he would kill him.

This may not be as unreasonable as it seems.  Remember that there are
still 3 movies after TRotJ, which may take place a considerable time
after TRotJ.  There were about 20 years between episodes 3 & 4.  It
also gives a nice sense of symmetry with the first trilogy dealing
with Obi-Wan and Darth; the second trilogy with Luke (Darth's son in
some sense of the word) and Darth, and the final trilogy with Luke's
son and ???.  I would appreciate hearing how this compares with other
known and speculated facts about the SW series.

         John


[It's not a spoiler, since it's pure speculation.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1981 08:10:33-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Ben Kenobi

0b1 KN(ight) 0b1?

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  8 Sep 1981 16:30-PDT
From: chris at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Names in SW-TESB (may need a spoiler)


     I have collected the following information over the last few
years and offer it for your enjoyment.  I can't verify the Oriental
sources, since I don't speak Japanese; but my source for them is a
member of the LA Filk-harmonic who gets her information from all over,
so it is probably reliable.

     Obi-Wan Kenobi is Japanese and means "the one with the force".
     Degobah (Yoda's) planet means "temple".
     Yo-da are separate Japanese words meaning "being" and "world".

     Skywalker seems to me an eminently suitable name for a starship
     pilot, and Solo seems to be a direct indication of Han's loner
     tendencies.

     Darth Vader has cognates in English and German--"death" and
        "dearth" both suggest a denial of life and fulfillment; Vader
        suggests both "father" and "invader", and if you want to be
        mediaeval about your Latin, vadio means "to go" (i. e. Quo
        Vadis?), so vader could be construed to mean "walker".

     About the Emperor's background:  in the prologue to the book Star
     Wars, which is ostensibly written by Lucas, the Senator Paladin
     took control of the Republican Senate, and gradually declared
     himself Emperor.  And Paladin means "knight"--so it would seem
     the Emperor came from some knightly tradition, although the Jedi
     may not have been the only order around.

     Lars (Uncle Owen's and presumably Aunt Beru's family name) is a
        homey Scandinavian sound; I don't know what it means in
        Swedish, but the "lar" in Latin is the household god
        responsible for the safety of the family--a good description
        of Uncle Owen's motives.

     Leia Organa suggests several things--but I'll limit myself to PG
     remarks.  "Organic" seems the most obvious cognate--alive or
     life-bearing, and in the age of health food fads, also pure; this
     could be a subtle hint to Leia's ability with the Force, if she
     has it.

     "Chewwie" makes me think of the Sesame Street Cookie Monster--a
     lot more bark than bite; and "Wookie" adds to the impression.  I
     have no idea if there are any language sources for something like
     "Chewbacca".  Does anyone know if it is supposed to mean anything
     in Wookie-talk?

     Hoth seems to be a joke:  "hot" versus the cold nature of the
     planet.

     Wedge Darklighter - Like "Skywalker", this a direct comment on
        character and function:  Wedge serves (in the sequences at the
        beginning of the script in The Art of Star Wars, which were
        lost on the cutting room floor) to enlighten Luke and
        encourage him to find a way to get to the Academy.

That's all I can think of for now, but I will see what I can dig up on
the other place and character names.  (Did you know that TIE fighter
stands for "The Imperial Empire"--they couldn't think of a name for
the darn things).

I doubt that there are sources for all the names Lucas uses, but he
does find some which either directly or indirectly suggest facets of
the character-- a good and reliable technique for increasing the
dramatic impact and depth of a work.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #63
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 SEP 1981 2300-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #63
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 12 Sep 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Series trends (McCaffrey/Asimov/Blish/Chalker/Eddison/
              Niven/Doc Smith/LeGuin/Tolkien/Dickson) &
      '80 Hugo (Fountains of Paradise) & Ship Who Sang sequel &
               Lord Valentine's Castle picaresqueness &
            Inspector General & Title answer (2159 A.D.),
     SF Movies - Close Encounters/War of the Worlds mothership &
                          Names in Star Wars
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 14:22:33-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: series

   I suppose I might as well put in my nickel's worth....

   On piecemeal series:
 * The Dragonflight trilogy was certainly not written as a piece;
   DRAGONFLIGHT is several pieces ranging from short-story to novella
   length, and all of them were published in ANALOG before being
   collected.  DRAGONQUEST came out several years later, and THE WHITE
   DRAGON was dragged (sorry) out in pieces (the book was published in
   1978 but the episode with the missing queen egg was published
   locally by a small press in early 1975).
 * The Foundation trilogy is even more ragged; FOUNDATION is a
   collection of 5 pieces and each of the other books is 2 (all of
   them magazine-published).
 * The Cities in Flight series (which I also think is mostly great) is
   temporally entangled.  It began as a short story (the last chapter
   or so of EARTHMAN COME HOME); Campbell said there were several
   hundred thousand words hiding behind that short and he wanted them.
   Publication was scattered all over the place (though not all of it
   made it to magazines before book publication); the Bridge sections
   of book 1 appeared separately and were reprinted in one of the
   SPECTRUM anthologies.
The common denominator is not the original intent but that all three
of these series were brought out by Campbell, who had a genius for
asking questions that had to be answered by another story---this meant
that every story had something worthwhile in it rather than simply
being "more of the same" or "what happened next".

   I think several people are also getting rather far afield in what
is called a series; there ought to be a collective term for a group of
stories (of any length) with common background (and possibly
inferrable temporal sequence) but little absolute connection.
Heinlein, for instance, rarely used the same character more than
twice, though he frequently has borrowings between the older "Future
History" material and newer pieces that don't really fit it (consider
the suggestion that Hazel Stone of the Rolling Stones appears as a
pre-teen in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, or the descriptions of the
first successful Martian expeditions in RED PLANET and STRANGER IN A
STRANGE LAND).  Perhaps "cycle", as Dickson speaks of his "Childe
Cycle", would be better, except that even that may imply too much
coherency---Dickson designed a set of 3 histories, 3 in the near
future, and 3 in interstellar future (these last have been further
split into 2 books each).

   The Riddlemaster trilogy, on the other hand, is almost as unified
as THE LORD OF THE RINGS, sufficiently so that it is much easier to
digest part 3 if you've read parts 1 and 2 quite recently.

------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1981 2042-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: McCaffrey (series degeneration)

Series that don't degrade - they are consistently bad:

Anne McCaffrey's "Dragonriders of Pern":  The short story that became
the first chapter of the first book ("Weyr Search") won a Hugo back in
1968.  I would recommend this story, and say avoid the rest of the
books.  They are childishly plotted, with incongruously fortunate
turns of events and changes in the "rules"; they also have annoyingly
inconsistent characterizations.  Skip it.

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1981 14:31:09-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
To: Ginder at cmu-20C
Subject: 1980 novel Hugo winner

    THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE by Arthur C. Clarke (a sentimental
favorite, I suppose---it really didn't seem to be Hugo caliber).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1981 14:39:24-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
To: korner at utexas-11
Subject: SHIP WHO SANG sequel

   As far as I know there is no book-length sequel to the stories
collected under this name.  There is \\one// later story about Helga
and Niall, but it's not very good for the reasons successors often
aren't good.
   (Could "sequel" have referred to a successor to the original
novelette?  If so, it's a misnomer, as there were \four/ later
stories, all collected in the book.)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1981 1151-PDT
From: Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: Denvention, Well World Series, Lord Valentine's Castle

Hi.  Am finally recovered (at least sort of) from WorldCon.  Missed
the SFL party- maybe next year.  Now to business.  Must disagree with
the favorable comment on the Well World series.  I loved the first
book, enjoyed the second and third, couldn't get even halfway through
the fourth, and didn't even buy no. five yet.  "Midnight at the Well
of Souls" was perfect alone.  The second two were enjoyable, but sort
of like icing on an angel food cake.  Enough of that.  On to the main
gripe.  I've been holding back with this, but at the urging of our old
moderator, will go ahead and say it.  Besides, if I print it once,
maybe I'll stop flaming to all of my friends, who can't just not read,
and don't feel free enough to say shut up.  Here goes!  "Lord
Valentine's Castle" is not! a picaresque novel!  Why modern reviewers
seem to feel that any book about a journey qualifies for that category
is beyond me!  Picaresque novels are about AIMLESS wandering!
Valentine is never aimless.  It is obvious from the first few pages
that there is some goal to be reached at the end of this book, and
within the first fifty pages or so, we know what that goal is.  Even
with its tendency to bog down, or take on a quality of being "on the
road with Charles Kuralt", this is a fun book, even if it is a hundred
or so pages too long.  The fact that "Snow Queen" won the Hugo has
restored my faith in fandom to at least some small degree.

  By the way, we got one of Ozarks' "wine cellar" flights from
St.Louis to Denver, and it may qualify as the only way to fly- at
least to a con!

                                   amyjo.

------------------------------

Date: 12 September 1981 00:06-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Well world decline
To: DNELSON at PARC-MAXC

Jack Chalker's Well World series did indeed decline as far as I'm
concerned.  I find this result doubly amazing since it started so
poorly.  The books were one deus ex machina after another.  His
philosophy is half-baked, his conflicts implausible, and his sexual
obsessions ultimately boring.  It is truly sad that he came up with
such wonderful characters and settings to waste them the way he did.

-- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 11 September 1981 11:15 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Mothership/Eddison/IG

1. The Mothership hatch opeing scene from CE was lifted intact from
the last scene in George Pal's War of the Worlds.  Geometry, lighting,
the circle of stunned humans is all the same.  Of course the mood is
Old Testament instead of Spielberg's wimpish optimism.  The trivia
rewards are:

        a. The blast guns used by the Martians in WotW were simulated
        by physical and not optical effects.  Pal's technicians fed
        welding rod into an oxyacetylene flame and pumped it through a
        nozzle at high pressure.  The simulated blaster was damn near
        as dangerous as the real thing.

        b. The movie contains the first simulated atomic explosion.
        The technique was to use a combination of flash powder and
        liquid hydrogen.

WotW has special effects that still look good today; when it came out
it was a stunner of the magnitude of Star Wars.  Speaking of which, do
any of you super Star Wars fans know where the design for C-3PO was
stolen from (I promise to quit after this).

2. Eddison left a large unfinished fragment of a fourth book upon his
death in 1945.  Does anyone know if it was published, or does anyone
have any references to biographical info on him?  He must have been a
fascinating individual.

3. The description of the plot of the "Spectre General" is that of the
"Inspector General," so it must have been renamed in anthology.
Street and Smith published "Astounding."  1952, you say.  Tempus
fugits us all.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1981 2042-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: Eddison (series degeneration)

Series' that are consistently good:

E.R. Eddison's incomplete "Zimiamvia" tetralogy:  The first book, "The
Worm Ourobouros", is a classic fantasy that was very influential on
Tolkien.  Many people have started this book, and quit after a chapter
or two; while the book does indeed start out very slow, after the
fifth chapter it picks up to become one of the best fantasies ever
written.  A must read.  The other books ("Mistress of Mistresses", "A
Fish Dinner in Memison", and the postumously published "The Mezentian
Gate") are only loosely connected with Ourobouros; while they do not
have the same magical setting, they are also wonderful storytelling,
with the most convincing characterization of aristocracy I have ever
come across in fantasy.  Definitely worth it.

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1981 21:32:50 EDT (Friday)
From: Mike Lease <mlease at BBNP>
Subject: Title query answer & SW names revisited
To Greg Woods:

The book you referred to is 2159 A.D.  The author's last name is, I
believe, Alexander (about 75% confidence).  The first name escapes me
entirely, I'm afraid...

Regarding Son of Skywalker:

I think it's more reasonable to assume the Emperor was referring to
Luke because that's how the pronouns and antecedents read.  If he were
referring to Luke's hypothetical son, Vader would have had to specify
that LUKE could be turned (I THINK Vader said "he").  Also, turning
Luke would not necessarily guarantee A) that Luke's son would not be
born, or B) that his son would also be turned or turnable (though it
would make it much more likely).  In short, I think this is a case
where Occam's Razor applies; the simplest answer that fits the facts
is to be preferred, all else being equal.

Cheers,
Mikey

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1981 at 1523-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: re: name origins in SW series

That was very interesting and I hate to be picky, but....  Luke's
buddy on Tatooine who was encouraging him to join the academy was
Biggs Darklighter, Wedge is another character, a pilot seen at the end
of 4 and the beginning of 5.  I still haven't decided whether or not
he dies in the battle with the walkers, though.  Incidentally, Biggs
dies at the end of 4 as he and Luke are going for the shaft.  By that
time, Wedge has already pulled off because of trouble he's having with
his ship.
-king

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 1633-EDT
From: David Dyer-Bennet
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #58 )

(mike at RAND-UNIX) I heard recently that Asimov had signed to write
another Foundation book.  Perhaps we should wait and see how it comes
out.  I don't feel that the Foundation series as it currently exists
meets the test of having been written in several pieces -- I know it
originally appeared in pieces smaller than the current three-novel
packaging, but Asimov wrote them quite close together, which seems to
me to be the significant thing.

Ringworld/Ringworld Engineers could be taken as a legitimate series
that supports the "downhill" hypothesis.
On the other hand, Doc Smith's Skylark series spans essentially his
entire writing career, and if anything improves as it goes on.
(People could claim that \none/ of it was any good; people who want to
claim that should expect me to raise objections to their position).

There are also lots of non-SF long series, especially in the Mystery
field.  Does Sherlock Holmes go downhill?  What about Travis Magee
(well probably yes in his case)?

I would maintain that LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy DOES go downhill.

(decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)) Now wait a
minute.  Assuming (for discussion only) patrilineal naming, Luke's
father would have the same name as Luke, and Luke's father's brother
would have the same name as Luke's father, hence the same name as
Luke.  Therefore the fact that Owen and Beru use a name other than
Skywalker shows either that the naming conventions were different, or
that Owen was \NOT/ Luke's Father's brother; specifically, if the
naming conventions are patrilineal, there must be at least one female
link in any relationship between Owen and Luke.

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #59 )

(Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>) Although the discussion seems
to have broadened, I believe that the original question was whether
sequels or pieces of series written well after a successful first book
were or were not generally worse than the first book.  This certainly
lets out Tolkien, for example.

(ZEMON@MIT-MC) I'm glad you liked the Lensman series.  It saves me a
lot of trouble.  (for typographical purposes consider the previous
sentence to have been "slashed over")

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #60 )

(Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics) We may be of the "cinema generation,"
but we are here mostly in our capacities as SF fans; and SF fans are
notoriously print-oriented.  On the other hand, this \particular/
group of SF fans does seem to spend a lot of time discussing film and
TV.

(Marc Donner at CMU-10A) "The Childe Cycle" is the encompassing
envelope for a grandiose plan of Gordy's that includes historical,
current, and future novels (I mean, novels set in past, present and
future; it is also true that the series consists of novels he has
written, novels he is working on, and novels that he intends to write
in the future; but that's \not/ what I meant).  The future part of the
series involving the Dorsai is, strangely enough, commonly known as
the Dorsai series.

(General) Wow.  I seem to have found a lot to say on this digest.  For
those who are interested, I might add that Gordy is currently working
on The Final Encyclopedia, a future novel in the Childe Cycle, and I
believe also on one of the historicals (set in Renaissance Italy or
thereabouts).  Having moved away from Minneapolis and gotten somewhat
out of touch, I don't know what sort of publication dates are
expected.

[When David refers to "this digest" he really refers to a package of
several days' digests regularly sent out over DEC's Engineering Net.
-- Mike]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #64
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 SEP 1981 2322-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #64
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 13 Sep 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:
                      SF Radio - "X Minus One",
    SF Movies - "The Blade Runners" & Answer ("The Terrornauts"),
 SF Books - Unfinishable books (Russ/Delany/Pangborn/Busby/Heinlein/
             Bradbury/Pournelle/Farmer/Herbert/Zelazny) &
   Series (GOR/Vance/Petaja/Herbert/Anthony/Harrison/Foster/Farmer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1981 19:10:19-PDT
From: MathStat.jmrubin at Berkeley
Subject: Science Fiction on CBC Radio (including shortwave), The Blade
         Runners

        "X-Minus-One", the old Street and Smith radio series from the
glory days of "Astounding", is being carried by the CBC on Thursdays
at 7:30 P.M. as part of "As It Happens".  Likewise NPR's "Starwars" on
Fridays.  Shortwave frequencies include 15325 kHz and 17875 kHz at
7:30 P.M. Atlantic Time (one hour ahead of Eastern Time) and 9755 and
5960 kHz at 7:30 P.M. Eastern Time.  Daylight Savings applies in both
cases.

        A while ago, the movie "The Blade Runners" was mentioned.  Wm
Burroughs (of "Naked Lunch" and "Nova Express" fame) wrote a
screenplay based on the Nourse book.  The screenplay costs $3.95
(shipping?) and is available from Blue Wand Press, Box 7175, Berkeley,
CA 94707-7175.  ISBN # 0-912652-46-2

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1981 1049-EDT
From: Antonino Mione <MIONE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Response to movie query

Eric Scott sent in a query about a week ago concerning 2 sf movies.
The title of the first movie is, I believe, 'The Terrornauts'.  It was
a rather poor movie.  If memory serves me correct, it was English.
The beginning was good, but it fell apart soon after that.  Does this
help any?

Tony:<mioNE>

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 2009-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Books I Couldn't Finish

A spinoff topic from the series uphill/downhill came out today:  Can
people put down books without finishing them?  I admit to being fairly
compulsive.  I have been unable to finish only two SF books in my
recollection.  Both were by Joanna Russ, and I gave them away, I felt
so strongly about not having them around (something else I almost
never do--give books away).  I hated, but finished many others, most
notably (hardest to finish) DHALGREN.  What else have people not been
able to finish?

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 00:44-EDT
From: Stuart M. Cracraft <MCLURE at MIT-AI>
Subject: books not worth finishing


Enter incite-controversy-mode:

In my case, there have been plenty:  Pangborn's DAVY (boring),
Delany's DHALGREN (confused and boring) and THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION
(so much horse pucky), Busby's THE DEMU TRILOGY (initially interesting
but degrades into pathetic space opera), Heinlein's STRANGER IN A
STRANGE LAND (I generally revile `bestsellers'), Bradbury's SOMETHING
WICKED THIS WAY COMES (simplistic, boring, typical Bradbury), Niven &
Pournelle's INFERNO (their only collaboration that I thought was
mildly interesting was THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE), Farmer's finale to the
Riverworld series (really awful), Herbert's attempt at a sequel to
DUNE, Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT (as is often the case with RZ, often
locally interesting, but pointless from afar).  There are others,
but... let's hear it for incite-controversy-mode!

Exit.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 81 1:19:26-EDT (Wed)
From: J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Zelazny's "Lord of Light"

        In that one of my favorite sf books, "Lord of Light", was
defamed in vol 4, #61, let me make a couple of points:

        1) The book is set in a recreation of Hindu Mythology, unlike
most mythologically inclined books I have read, it is fairly accurate
in its portrayal of the roles of the various Hindu Gods.  (Being
somewhat of a student of Hinduism, I appreciated this immensely.)

        2) The writing is at least average, I have read much worse
F&SF than this, (notably some of the John Norman "Gor" series, which
is one of those series that "wobble", in my opinion).

        Having had my say, I retire from the field with honor...

                                        -JCP-

------------------------------
Date:  9 Sep 1981 1521-PDT
From: ISAACS at SRI-KL
Subject: SF-Lovers Query

   My 13 year old son is reading the GOR series.  I have heard that it
is not only badly written (which I expect), but also overly sexist,
Sado-masochistic, and violent.  Has anybody read it?  Any comments on
it?
   --Stan Isaacs

------------------------------

Date: 12 September 1981 0239-PDT (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Uniformly BAD

My nomination for a novel series that was, is, and presumably always
will be uniformly BAD is the "GOR" series.  How many ARE there now?  I
am completely convinced that John Norman Lange does not really exist
-- that the books are written by a TRS-80 programmed with a 1200 word
dictionary.  What bothers me is that someone, somewhere, buys those
things ... but WHO?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1981 2042-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: Vance (series degeneration)

Those that degrade, but that I recommend anyway:

Vance's "Durdane", "Demon Princes", "Planet of Adventure", "Dying
Earth":

The first book of the Durdane trilogy, "The Faceless Man" (formerly
"The Anome"), is pretty much what one expects from Vance - a rather
whimsical, stylized description of an alien world with a very bizarre,
formalized social system - and, as such, is pretty good.  The second
and third books ("The Brave Free Men", "The Asutra"), however, break
away from the original setting, and suffer for it.  They are, however,
worth reading, at least for Vance fans.

The Demon Princes series ("Star King", "The Killing Machine", "The
Palace of Love", "The Face", and "The Book of Dreams") is much better
than the Durdane trilogy.  Vance's novels, unlike his short stories,
are best when they deal with wandering adventurers, and this series,
like the Planet of Adventure series, demonstrates this very well.
They all concern a young man who has trained since childhood to exact
revenge from five galactic crime lords, the self-styled Demon Princes
who massacred his parents years before while on a collaborative
slaving run.  Kirth Gersen, the protagonist, is the best spy-cum-
vigilante Vance has ever created, and the plots are captivating.
(Like the Planet of Adventure series, Vance plays hell with monetary
matters with a get-rich-quick scheme that is truly wonderful.)  The
first four books are all very good; in fact, the fourth book is
probably the best.  However, apparently due to the necessity of
meeting an announced publication date, the fifth book was rather
hurriedly written, and is not really a fitting or a satisfying
denouement to the work as a whole.  Nonetheless, I will recommend this
series wholeheartedly.

The "Planet of Adventure" series features another space adventurer,
named Adam Reith, who is the sole survivor of an Earth expeditionary
ship to a nearby star from which coded signals were received.  Upon
arrival, the ship is shot down, and Reith is left stranded on a world
that has seen colonization by four sentient space-traveling races.
These all co-exist in uneasy truce (subject to minor flare-ups), along
with the indiginous race, which happens to be Homo Sap, or something
indistinguishable.  The action revolves around Reith's trying to beg,
borrow, or steal a ship to return to Earth to warn (our) humanity of
the proximity of four warlike races, without attracting attention to
his presence on the planet (in this, he is not very successful - no
one could miss his incredible exploits).  Each book is set in the
territory of a different non-human race ("The City of the Chasch",
"The Servants of the Wankh", "The Dirdir", "The Pnume").  The series
does degenerate with time, with the tone becoming more somber with
progression; again, however, I would heartily recommend it.

The "Dying Earth" series at present has only two mostly unconnected
books in it, "The Dying Earth" and "The Eyes of the Overworld".  They
are set in the immensely far future when the sun is a guttering red
blotch in the misty sky.  Humanity spends its last days in typical
Vancian effete decadence, wenching, gambling, ensorceling, and
otherwise diverting itself.  The first book is a collection of short
stories with unrelated characters and action; the second concerns an
unprincipled but likeable rogue named Cugel the Clever (a sobriquet).
A new collection of Cugel stories is in the works as well - some have
already been published.  The two books out so far are very good as
well as very distinctive, even for Vance.

All for now (thank Rao!)

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 11 September 1981 15:40 edt
From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Strong series no one has mentioned yet, (at least I don't
         think they've been mentioned).

Many of the series people have mentioned are ones which I've enjoyed.
The major flops people have identified I agree with largely.  There
are some series I enjoy which have not been mentioned that I think
deserve exception from the "series go down hill the longer the author
works on them" syndrome.

Emil Petaja wrote a series of three books which are evocations of the
major Scandinavian myths.  The only one I can remember the name of off
hand is "The Star Mill".

While Herbert's Dune series is a loser except for the first book, I
think, the Whipping Star series is strong.  It's only two books,
contrary to someone's suggestion that only trilogies or longer be
discussed, but they are very good books.  The second book is "The
Dosadi Experiment".  I've read a lot of disappointing material from
Herbert, but these two books and "Dune" convince me he's basically a
good writer.

Being afflicted with a strange disease few others in SFL seem to have,
it seems to be left up to me to mention the numerous series by Piers
Anthony.  One of his oldest, if not the oldest, is still my favorite:
"Omnivore", "Orn", and "Ox".  The only serious problem I had with this
series was in "Ox", he states the rules for Conway's Cellular Automata
game "Life" correctly, then gets the progression of patterns used as
chapter headings wrong.

A Jack Vance series not yet mentioned, which I think represents some
of his finest writing and is solid all the way through, is the
"Faceless Man" series.  I think the titles are: "The Faceless Man",
"The Asutra", and "The Brave Free Men".  Interesting ideas,
interesting developments, and set in the kind of bizarre but human
heterogeneous society Vance is justly famous for.  (Sorry about the
dangling preposition.)

Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series is consistently strong
writing with a new twist in every book just to keep the reader from
feeling like everything's obvious.  With the exception that Slippery
Jim D'Griz always..., but that would be telling, I guess.

One final series (I'm not really out of series yet, but I don't want
to try your patience any further) is by another favorite of mine, Alan
Dean Foster.  Frequently good for a "Fun" read.  The series is the
Pip&Flinx series: "The Tar-Aiym Krang", "Bloodhype", "The End of the
Matter", another one which I can't remember the name of (I think it's
the second book of the series).  Maybeso is one of my all time
favorite characters (He may be in the book I can't remember the title
of).

Given the large number of series which are arguably exceptions to the
"rule" that series decline as one gets further into them, perhaps the
belief in the rule is engendered by a few spectacular failures, not by
the existence of a large number of series which it describes.

Read Hearty, Mates!!
        -Lindsey

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 17:20:26-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxo!suem at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihnss!ihuxo!suem in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Funny you should mention Hamlet...

I must protest the slur on Leonard Nimoy's acting ability!  In early
1977 I saw Richard Burton play Dysart in Equus.  Later that year I saw
Nimoy play the same part.  Nimoy's interpretation was very good and
was by far the better performance.
--
I read the 4 Riverworld books for the first time recently.  I found it
a very disappointing experience.  The first book (and the second, and
the third) were intriguing and entertaining reading.  The last was a
waste of time and a terrible disappointment.  I think one of the
things that I found MOST frustrating was that Farmer was obviously
killing off some of the characters providing a common thread through
all 4 books because he had too many people at the end.  I agree that
the last few chapters are torture to read.
--
As for series that didn't disappoint, I found Piers Anthony's
Omnivore, Orn, and Ox a good read.  I also enjoyed his Macroscope.  I
realize these have been around a while, but from the quality of these
books, I would guess that his newer series (The Kirlian Quest, etc;
the Tarot trilogy; The Source of Magic, etc) would be good also,
although I have not yet read them.
--
        - Sue McKinnell ihuxo!suem

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #65
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 SEP 1981 2015-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #65
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Series (Foundation/Deryni/Colossus/Titan/Peregrine/
          Berserker/Gormenghast/Riddle Master/Perry Rodan),
     SF Topics - Immortality & Suspended animation & Scope of SF,
      SF Movies - C-3PO model & Star Wars names & TIE fighters &
                   Indiana Jones & Raiders' music,
                  Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 02:39-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Fourth Foundation book

Just wanted to confirm Dyer-bennet's comment (I read LOCUS, too) about
Asimov's signing for a 4th Foundation series book.

Asimov claims in one of those two massive autobiography volumes that
he completely burned out on the Foundation stories.  The fact that he
has now decided to do another one may indicate that the publishers
continue to think that sequels are what we want to read.  Ditto for
Clarke's \2010/.  Too bad if you don't want sequels, or if you are a
new author with a new idea.

------------------------------

Date:  8 Sep 1981 12:52:43 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Drew M. Powles <dpowles at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Brash Statements

Lately, with the discussion of the possible problems inherent (or not)
in series, trilogies, et al., there have been alot of statements made
such as "THIS was terrible, THAT was trash" and so forth.  This is all
fine and dandy, opinions are welcome, I should think.  Usually, I
simply ignore statements like these as useless fluff.  I'd like to
hear reasons for these statements.  Convince me!  And the explanation
that "the reasons this work was bad are obvious" is a cop-out.  If
someone has a statement to make about a work that seems a bit stronger
than simple opinion, let's here some justification.  The "this work
was TRASH and my opinion comes from on high..." mode just doesn't
wash.

------------------------------

Date: 10 September 1981 00:59-EDT
From: "Robert J Stratton, III." <STRAT at MIT-AI>
Subject: series'

 In reference to the Deryni Chronicles, I would have to say that
although I loved them all, Deryni Checkmate, was definitely a link to
something, as it lacked enough structure to stand on its own.
  Also, <ENTER INCITE-CONTROVERSY MODE> The Fall of Colossus is one
book that had just enough of a basic 'self-plot' to keep people from
forgetting that 'this isn't some pages that fell out of Colossus'
(I.E. THE FIRST BOOK).
<LEAVE INCITE-CONTROVERSY MODE>
                        OPEN SKY! (WHO KNOWS THE RESPONSE?)
                        BOB STRATTON
                (AKA KELSON CINHIL RHYS ANTHONY HALDANE)
                        STRAT @ MIT-AI.

------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1981 2042-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: series degeneration

Series' that are consistently good:

John Varley's "Titan":  This series is not yet complete, as the third
book, "Demon" has yet to join the previous two, "Titan" and "Wizard".
The first two are good, barring certain scenes of unnecessary but
predictable violence against women.  (Varley almost always has female
protagonists who are raped, mutilated, enslaved or otherwise shat
upon; this is rather puzzling, as he is seemingly approving of these
characters - some sort of love/hate relationship?)  I cannot describe
the setting without revealing most of the plot of the books, but I can
say that it is very cleverly contrived, with lots of wonderful
devices.  Worth it, barring proviso.

Avram Davidson's "Peregrine" books:  So far only two of these have
been written, and I do not know if the author has definite plans for a
third.  The ones published so far ("Peregrine Primus" and "Peregrine
Secundus") are marvelous picaresque fantasy set in a never-was Europe
shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire.  Peregrine is the bastard
son of the king of Sapodilla, the last pagan kingdom in Europe.  He is
forced by law to leave his home upon reaching adulthood, lest there be
contention for the throne, and enters a set of petty kingdoms rife
with the most outrageous Christian heresies imaginable.  These books
are very funny and at the same time very engaging fantasy.

Fred Saberhagen's "Beserker" series:  This is a loosely connected set
of short story collections, novellas, and two novels about (you
guessed it) Beserkers, alien AI killing machines, doomsday weapons
left over from some long forgotten extragalactic Armageddon, whose
sole purpose is to destroy all life everywhere (real neat bunch of
guys).  Saberhagen started writing the series back in the sixties;
while they were very pulpy in style, the concept was so well accepted
that he has not stopped writing them yet.  The two short story
collections, "Beserker" and "The Ultimate Enemy", are pretty much
pulp, but show a growing sophistication with time.  Three novellas,
all well connected and well written, have been published as "Brother
Assassin"; they are set on a planet in a highly warped region of
space, where time travel is possible.  The Beserkers have been fought
to a standstill in the "present" of the series, so they wage war back
through time, trying to destroy the civilization of the planet at
historical cusps.  It is very entertaining.  The two novels, "Beserker
Man" and "Beserker Planet" are also pretty good, but they show a
return to the pulpy quality of the shorts.  On the whole, the series
compares favorably with Known Space for dependably enjoyable writing.

Those that degrade, but that I recommend anyway:

Mervyn Peake's "Gormenghast":  The first two books ("Titus Groan",
"Gormenghast"), while requiring a lot of impetus to actually start
reading, are rather nicely evocative of a decaying fiefdom, totally
out of touch with the rest of the world (rather like Heinlein's
"Universe" and other generation-ships).  They mostly deal with the
noble family, retainers, and an ambitious young rogue up from the
scullery, and are set in a monstrous, decrepit castle complex,
Gormenghast.  The setting is wonderfully rich and Peake utilizes it
very well, especially in the second book, in which a classic situation
is marvelously exploited (I don't want to give it away, but it's one
of those scenarios that has occurred to everybody but is seldom
portrayed, and never better than here).  However, in the third novel,
Peake moves the protagonist away from Gormenghast into a chic
21st-century social environment; not only is this an inexplicable
non-sequitur, but the plot and characterizations are essentially
worthless.  I would recommend the first two books, and say skip the
third.

Series' that don't degrade - they are consistently bad:

Patricia A. McKillip's "The Riddle Master of Hed":  All of the
incredible tribulations of the characters in these books could have
been avoided if everyone had just sat down together for fifteen
minutes and told each other what they were doing.  You'll wish they
had if you read these books.

All for now (thank Rao!)

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 13:46-EDT
From: John Howard Palevich <TANG at MIT-AI>
Subject: Immortal series

        Perry Rodan (the Lord of the Universe) is a German magazine/
serial/series that has gone past the 800 volume mark.  I think a new
one comes out every week, and that there are several spin-off series
(Atlan, Children of Tantalus) that are past several hundred volumes.
For a long while Ace was publishing these books about one a month, and
until Grey Morrow stopped painting the covers (about book 105) I
thought they were pretty good.  The series was written by a teem of
authors, and there is a cast of thousands, not to mention a very
involved plot -- basically, every 50 books they zip ahead a hundred
years, so as to let children grow up, etc.  Most everyone important is
immortal but not invulnerable. . . .

------------------------------

Date: 11 September 1981 21:46 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: Human life span.

It is true that the average life span has increased dramatically but
the peak life span has not.  2000 years ago (even 4000 years ago) some
people lived into their eighties (or even longer) but most people died
young.  One's chances of living to 80 are now higher than ever.
Unfortunately, even with 4e9 people an insignifigant number break 110.

The human body wears out after 60-100 years and that is the big
problem.  For a long time medical research attacked the problem of
keeping people alive into their twenties or sixties.  Now it is
worried about keeping them healthy.  The next big step will involve
lengthening the aging rate.

------------------------------

Date: 11 September 1981 21:47 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: frozen critters

The New York Times had an article last month about freezing mouse
fetuses.  Yup, they can do it and they can wake them up and turn them
into instant mice.  They are making up a huge bank of all the major
breeds.  Who knows, in 20 years a lab might tell some poor undergrad
coolie to heat up 50 mice for a cancer cure test run?  (They don't eat
(or other things) when frozen.)

No luck with adult mice yet but I was surprised to see it can be made
to work this well.

                              Seth Steinberg

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1981 1633-EDT
From: David Dyer-Bennet
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #54 )

(CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley) I would consider Wizards (by Bakshi) to be
"science fantasy" at some level, probably as much so as Heavy Metal
from the reviews I've seen here.  There have also been a number of
straight fantasy pieces done in English (if your friend thinks he can
distinguish in a consistent and generally acceptable fashion between
fantasy and "science fantasy," "science fiction," or "speculative
fiction," he will not be at all unique.  But if he can actually get
agreement on the definitions, he is unique), including Lord of the
Rings (part 1) and Watership Down.

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #57 )

(Swenson at PARC-MAXC) Without commenting on specific religious
beliefs, I will point out that most of the discussion has centered
around immortality in the context of \this/ world -- a sort of "change
one rule" exercise.  There have of course been lots of treatments (or
at least references to) immortality in other contexts, or by other
species, or such; but they don't contribute much to our thoughts on
how we would deal with immortality within our current society.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 13 Sep 1981 14:14-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: C-3PO's model

        I would say offhand that the only robot I've ever seen that
remotely resembled C-3PO was the female robot in Fritz Lang's
"Metropolis".

        For those who think leftist tracts thinly disguised as SF are
a new thing in the world, I commend to your attention the novel
"Metropolis", by Fritz Lang's wife, Thea von Harbou.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1981 2105-CST
From: Michelle Tenney
Reply-to: "Michelle Tenney in care of" <ZELLICH at OFFICE-3>
Subject: Origin of C3PO design; Names in Star Wars

C3PO's body is from Metropolis, the first silent SF film, made in
1929; it was the female robot.  This was mentioned in Time, Newsweek,
The Art of Star Wars, and at least 3 issues of Starlog.

Owen Lars and "Skywalker" could have had the same mother and two
different fathers or "Skywalker" could have changed his name (i.e.
Ben "Obiwan" Kenobi) to Skywalker from Lars or Lars could have changed
his name from Skywalker.  Beru has nothing to do with any of this.

   Michelle Tenney via <ZELLICH at OFFICE-3>

------------------------------

Date: 11 September 1981 1453-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: TIE acronym

In response to the source of "TIE" given by chris at RAND-UNIX
(SF-LOVER'S Digest V4 #62): I thought TIE stood for "Twin Ion Engine".
Originally, the models of the Imperial fighters had two pods between
the hexagonal plates; I think I saw some of these in the segment of
TESB in which the Imperial fleet is using saturation bombing in the
asteroid belt to flush the Falcon out of hiding.

Tom P.

------------------------------

Date: 12 September 1981 0213-EDT (Saturday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject: TIE Fighters

        I remember reading somewhere (probably in the instructions for
a model) that TIE stands for Twin Ionic Engine(s[?]), not The Imperial
Empire as suggested in V4#62.                                     /DAC

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1981 08:11:05-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: RotLA

Is Indiana Jones related to C.L. Moore's Northwest Smith?

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 1209-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Michael.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E)
Subject: RotLA music

I realize that the RotLA music was ``original'' music, however I
couldn't seem to shake the feeling that I had heard it before.

I seem to recall a cigarette commercial (a long time ago) had a
similar theme.  (I think it was for Kent cigarettes).

Has anybody else noticed a similarity, or am I just hallucinating?

                -Michael Fryd

------------------------------

MDP@MIT-AI 09/14/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It reveals details
about "Raiders of the Lost Ark."  Readers who have not seen this movie
may wish not to read any further.

------------------------------

Date: 27 August 1981 1601-EDT (Thursday)
From: Marc.Donner at CMU-10A
Subject: Double "Raiders" Spoiler

Reports reaching me say that the reason for having Ford shoot the big
Arab with the big knife was not simply a desire not to film *another*
damn fight scene, but rather that during the time when that scene was
to be shot Ford was suffering from Dysentery and couldn't shoot a
scene for more than five minutes at a time.  We owe that delightful
moment to chance and disease!

I haven't seen anybody comment on the final, abysmal pun in Raiders.
I thought it was a pretty decent pun ... having the Ark stored away in
the *ARCHIVES*!  Sigh.

--Marc--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #66
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 SEP 1981 2220-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #66
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:
              SF Radio - Hitchhiker's Guide in Bay Area,
            SF Movies - "Something Wicked This Way Comes",
   SF Books - Macro-philosophy book & Valentine's picaresqueness &
                         Unfinishable books &
       Series (Doc Smith/Norton/Vance/Anthony/Gormenghast/GOR)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 1640-PDT
From: ISAACS at SRI-KL
Subject: HHGttG in Bay Area

  I heard on KCSM FM (91) that they will rebroadcast HHGttG on Sundays
at 9:30 (I think) pm, starting Oct 4, in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Don't know the repeat night yet (if any).
   -- Stan

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 1225-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Look out for a loser/rehash

For Release Anytime
AP WEEKEND
Entertainment Briefs

    HOLLYWOOD (AP) - Jason Robards has been signed by Walt Disney
Productions to star in Ray Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way
Comes."

    The $13.5 million movie goes into production at the end of
September.  Jack Clayton will direct from Bradbury's screenplay.

    The story centers on two teen-age boys who battle the powers of a
satanic circus that arrives one night in their hometown.  Bradbury's
novel, first published in 1962, has sold more than 18 million
paperback copies worldwide.
     .
     .
     .

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 13:10:12-PDT
From: ihuxk!no4pag at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihnss!ihuxk!no4pag in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Macro Love Story
As far as I can remember, the title of the story was 2150: A Macro
Love Story.  Glad someone found this good--I liked the story, but
these people took the macro idea seriously!!!!
          Gail Valentine
          ucbvax!ihnss!ihuxk!no4pag

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 10:00 PDT
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Thea Alexander's 2150 AD

The book about "some guy goes into the 21st century when he falls
asleep (pulled there by his 'twin soul', whose name was LEAH 9) and
learns all this neat stuff about psycho-kinesis and immortality" is
"2150 AD" by Thea Alexander.  She runs (or ran) a sort of commune in
Arizona which practices something they call "Macro-Philosophy" (you
learn this in an addendum to the book).  I read this book about 6
years ago on recommendation from a friend who said it was the best
science fiction book he'd ever read.

Frankly, I thought it was a boring treatise on an absurd unoriginal
philosophy, with thin plotting and uniformly bland characters.  Most
of the book is spent with the protagonist making behavioral blunders
in this "ideal" society, and the rest of the characters gently guiding
him toward the truth.  The philosophy espoused is vaguely reminiscent
of Heinlein and the Seth books.  Among other things, they have some
arrangement where sexual companions rotate on schedule, and it's bad
form to get attached to a particular person, because that's being
possessive and also failing to love the universal soul shared by
everyone.  (The immortality and telekinesis stuff is also based on
this universal soul idea.)  To enjoy this book, I think you'd have to
believe that Macro-Philosophy is the greatest thing ever, because
there certainly isn't much else to the story.

Greg, if you still want the book, my copy is sitting in the box of
books I want to give away to clear up valuable shelf space.  Give me
your address in Berkeley and I'll mail it to you free.

        Teri

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 13:29:11-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: definition of "picaresque"

   A picaresque novel is not necessarily one about aimless wanderings;
a picaresque novel describes the adventures of a rogue (from Spanish
"picaro", rogue, vagabond, bohemian).  Such adventures can be aimless
but that isn't the qualification.
   I would, however, challenge the description of LORD VALENTINE'S
CASTLE as a picaresque novel on the grounds that Valentine is too much
of a milksop to be a rogue (well, \maybe/ a vagabond, but he isn't
that scruffy either).  Within SF, the best example of a picaresque
novel is almost anything by John Moressy (sp?).
------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 1101-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: books that you don't finish

I will triple concur on DHALGREN as being a book you can't finish.  I
kept plowing along, hoping it would get better (not believing a
popular book could be so bad), but gave up at the half-way point.
Easily the worst SF (if it deserves the name) that I have ever picked
up.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 11:31 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: books not worth finishing

Cat of a Silvery Hue.  Also "misleading advertising", since the "cat"
part is so infinitesimal as to be invisible.

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 11:40 edt
From: York.Multics at MIT-Multics (William M. York)
Subject: books I could put down

Well, several years ago I found a copy of a book called "Mutant 59:
The Plastic Eaters".  I began to read it, but somehow wandered away in
the middle.  This happened two or three times in the next couple of
years.  Now I can't find the book, so I guess that I'll never find out
what happens.

Another book that I have yet to finish (but hope to some day) is
Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow".  I am told that if I read just
past the part I have read so far, it begins to get more interesting.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 10:14:06-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Smith chronology

   It is my recollection that the Skylark series was written between
1919 and the mid-30's (total 4 books) with the Lensman series
following it (though not precisely in internal/chronological order).

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1981 23:29-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Trending Series

  I have found that the Witch World series by Andre Norton has never
disappointed me, for Andre has continued to strive to bring out new
features, aspects, and characters to populate her world. Thus far,
there are two books dealing with Estcarp, three or four dealing with
Escore, and many novels and short stories dealing with High Halleck.
The characters vary from story to story and occasionally she will
bring back one for a new story, or let the reader know how one
character fared a meeting of characters.
  Several of Andre Norton's series are that way, and I think that the
majority of her work is in the good to excellent category, but I may
be biased; I know her.
--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 16:22-PDT (Monday)
From: IngVAX.kalash at Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Vance, Anthony, Gor

        Being a longtime Vance freak (I think having a copy of
"Vandals of the Void" alone should allow me that title), I must take
exception to some inconsistencies in this hallowed mailing list.
First off, humans are NOT the original species inhabiting the "Planet
of Adventure", the Pnume are the original creatures.  Remember that
part of the reason he wants to get back is that someone (thing) on the
planet has already visited Earth, and brought back samples.  Second,
there are a lot more of the "Dying Earth" stories than just "Dying
Earth", and "Eyes of the Overworld", he has "Seventeen Virgins", "A
Bagful of Dreams", and lots of other short stories floating around.

        As for Anthony, I still think his best work is Chthon,
followed closely by it's sequel Pthor.  In third place is Macroscope
(I found Ox almost unreadable).

        With respect to John Norman (who deserves no respect), his
books are at best garbage, the man is a history prof. at some eastern
small college.  His books would have made even ERB (Edgar Rice
Burroughs) blush in shame.  Though if you ever need a good laugh, pick
up one of the later ones, and read the chapter titles.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 10:21 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: GOR

The Gor series is sexist, pornoviolent slime of a type to cause an
ACLU member to look favorably on censorship.  I wouldn't take the
books away from a 13-year-old (the forbidden fruit syndrome would then
occur), but I would use them as an excellent chance to educate him in
exploitive literature, and then try to get him interested in something
decent.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 1410-MDT
From: David Kohrn <OPER.KOHRN at UTAH-20>
Subject: Unfinishable Series...

        The most unfinishable series which comes to my mind is the
very long, very tedious, and extremely boring Gormenghast trilogy.  In
three attempts, I have been unable to get as much as halfway through
the first book.

        Re:  GOR query.
        It is everything you have said and much, much less.  I read a
few of them which my dad mistakenly picked up at the used book store
and found them to be almost nothing but a multi-book treatise on the
virtues of slavery (in particular, female slavery).

        Some series I enjoyed:
        The Lord of the Rings  by J.R.R. Tolkien
                My all time favorite piece of fantasy.
        The Chronicles of the Deryni  by Katherine Kurtz,
                Including the Legends of Camber of Culdi
        The Magic of Xanth  by Piers Anthony
                This one is extremely corny, but a lot of fun
        Robert Heinlein's Future History stories
                Good, but I think Lazarus Long is getting a little old
                (seriously!)
        ... and a number of the others which have already been
        mentioned.
                        David.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 2237-EDT
From: MARKT at MIT-XX
Subject: Gor, Gormenghast

        Re Gor, I wouldn't say the entire series was hopeless, the
first book is pretty good, except in that it makes you want to read
the following books of the series.  They start only mildly sexist and
gory, but get progressively worse, at the expense of plot.  I think
there are >= 14 books in the series, though I punted after "Hunters of
Gor".
        Gormenghast was very good for the first two books, in fact
it's great as a two part series, since most things are resolved by the
end of the second book; I agree that the third book was pretty
disappointing.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 81 0:29:14-EDT (Tue)
From: J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70 at BRL>
Subject: GOR Series

In response to the query about the quality of the John Norman GOR
series:

I have read the entire series, (it is still being written at about the
rate of 1 to 2 per year, there are currenly 15 books).  While it IS
sexist, (definitely), then, so am I, so it doesn't bother me too much,
there is a good deal of violence, (particularly in the earlier books),
but it is in general violence with a purpose, (the good guys usually
win, in the end), so it is no worse than most Westerns, and generally
has more plot.  A LOT of criticism has been levelled at this series,
at least some of which is exaggerated.  If you really read the book,
and attempt to understand what the author is trying to say, they
aren't bad reading, but I question whether a 13 year-old will take the
thing in the proper philosophical way, (whatever that means).

                                        -JCP-

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 81 12:32:49-EDT (Mon)
From: Greg.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: Who reads GOR

        In answer to the question who reads the GOR series, I was once
told that a college professor did a study and determined that most
readers are women.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 10:11:04-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Gor

   Honest to Ghu, John Norman does exist. His real name is John F.
Lange (which Michael Crichton has used as a pseudonym!) and he is a
professor of philosophy at Queens College in New York City. A friend
has read some of his mundanely published work, including his doctoral
thesis, and said it sounds so rational: no whips and chains, no
leather, just a vigorous form of ethical naturalism---i.e., "Whatever
is, is right." The greatest weakness of this philosophy (and there are
many) is in the postulates you make about what is; in Lange's case the
postulates include the assumption that man is a natural aggressor and
that women are happiest and most "fulfilled" when they are being
aggressed (and you thought the Total Woman was bad! . . .). I think
they are among the most despicable (not just bad, \disgusting/) books
I've ever glanced at; Stan, I'm curious to hear what your son actually
thinks of them. (At Activities Midway, last week at MIT, I explained
them thus to a curious freshwoman: "According to John Norman, if you
were a true woman, I could seize you by the hair, throw you across
that table, rape you brutally and repeatedly with everyone looking on
. . . and not only would you like it, you would crawl after me on your
knees begging for more!" I might have added that according to John
Norman if I were a true man I would---and all the more quickly because
this foolish female had the incredible affrontery to enter into this
formerly all-male institute as a presumptive equal. AAUUGGHH!!) (This
is the sort of thing that makes me feel some tinge of sympathy for
Joanna Russ and Jessica Amanda Salmonson.)
   The worst of it is that not only does this trash sell, it sells
like hotcakes and is one of the things that has helped to support the
DAW line (the first publishing label devoted exclusively to SF books
since the lamented Gnome Press of the early 50's). Aside from the
vileness of the ideas contained therein, they are \\terribly//
written. The first few (which someone told me are not as badly done as
the later ones), were published by Ballantine, but around #5 Betty
Ballantine said flatly that it would have to be cut 20% (she didn't
want any scenes cut, just the incredible, repetitious wailing from the
women and muscle-flexing by the men); Lange said that nobody cut his
prose and walked to DAW, which was then a new and wobbly concern. I
sometimes wonder what would happen if some of DAW's bookmakers got
together; he also does A. Bertram Chandler (sexist, but not as badly),
Marion Zimmer Bradley, and the "Amazons" anthologies assembled by
Salmonson.
   Stranger yet is that some women like this thlup; I know one of
them, who happens to have a Ph.D. from Brown and several thousand $$
from JEOPARDY (late 60's/early 70's quiz show). Still haven't figured
that one out.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #67
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 SEP 1981 2206-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #67
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Sep 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:
                SF Fandom - ARPAnet-style SFL buttons,
                   SF Topics - SF cover art query,
    SF TV - "Omni: The New Frontier" & "The Future: What's Next",
                     SF Movies - C-3PO's origins,
               SF Books - Eddison's unfinished third &
      Series (Donaldson/Dune/Riverworld/Amber/Gormenghast/GOR) &
                    Unfinishable books (Dhalgren)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1981 at 1827-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ BUTTON, BUTTON ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've had an inquiry as to whether I could get @-buttons made for
SF-L'ers who can't make it to Othercon, and the answer is "Sure!"

I have 3 styles in mind.

a) a largish, neatly drawn (slightly shaded) at-sign in the middle of
   the button.

b) one's SF-L address (in as large DECwriter characters as practical)
   across the breadth of the button.  E.g.,

                           hjjh @ UTEXAS-11

c) for longer addresses, the "name" in the top 1/3 of the button, an
   at-sign in the middle, and the locale below.  E.g.,

                              lrc.hewitt

                                  @

                              UTEXAS-20

Send me a note and we can arrange to make up a button (or buttons) for
you.  I plan to get them made up when I go to ROC-KON in October, so
please let me know promptly.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1981 2312-PDT
From: WRS at OFFICE-2 (William R. Soley)
Subject: SF cover artwork

A friend of mine is looking for any kind of artwork with a centaur in
it.  If you know of a source for this type of artwork, like a book
cover, please pass the info back to me.

I am NOT on SF-LOVERS so please respond to WRS@OFFICE.  Thank you in
advance.

-Bill

------------------------------

Date: 15 September 1981 21:13-EDT
From: "Martin B. Gentry, III" <GENTRY at MIT-AI>
Subject: "OMNI: The New Frontier" - A mini review
         "The Future: What's Next?"

OMNI's TV show premiered tonight on ABC with host Peter Ustinov. It
seems to be structured somewhat like the CONTINUUM section of the
magazine.  Tonight, the topics included:

        1) A report about Russian experiments with birthing children
           under-water.
        2) A Japanese "coffin-hotel".
        3) Work on the design of a molecular computer.
        4) A race between a lab mouse "Musculus (sp?)" and "Micro-
           Mouse" on a pre-set, pre-run course.  The result?  (the
           mouse won)

For those who watched the CBS pilot "The Future: What's next?", how
many noticed that one of the players in the future-setting skits was
none other than Mike Jittlov?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 09:28 PDT
From: Klose.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Origins of C-3PO

C-3PO bears a great deal of resemblance to the robot in Fritz Lang's
classic silent film of the 20's, "Metropolis" (I think the robot's
name was Maria).

- Paul

------------------------------

Date: 15 September 1981 12:01 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: C-3PO/Eddison

1. Glad to see the C-3PO heritage was such common knowledge.  Not only
was the Metropolis robot better looking than C3-PO, but it/she was
also a much better dancer.

2. As mentioned in a previous contribution, the unfinished third
Eddison book is available, packaged somewhat misleadingly as the last
of a trilogy.  It is only for the hardcore fans.  Pages 179-181
explain what went on at the Fish Dinner.  (Combination spoiler warning
and aid for the befuddled). Are there any other cases where an author
went over the same events a second time in a successor work??

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 6 September 1981 2042-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: Donaldson (series degeneration)

Series' that are consistently good:

Steven R. Donaldson's "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the
Unbeliever":  As has been noted elsewhere, these books definitely do
not degrade; however, they are not for everybody.  The protagonist is
an understandably nihilistic leper who is magically transported to a
realm that is highly derivative of Middle Earth.  The title comes from
the fact that he cannot allow himself to believe in the reality of
this magical land, as he is afraid that he is having a psychotic
hallucination in an escapist attempt to avoid the horrible existence
that he must face daily.  The twist is that he has been summoned by
the mages of the land as a last hope against a Mephistophelian baddy,
Lord Foul (really).  If you can stand the anti-heroic nature of the
books, they are really quite good.

Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1981 17:35:16-PDT
From: Adam Buchsbaum <research!sjb>
Reply-to: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Donaldson's Thomas Covenant trilogies

Personally, I loved the first trilogy.  I was sad to see that in The
Wounded Land, most or all of the lore was gone.  However, I am hooked
to the series as it is now and have been looking around for the second
book of the second trilogy.  I have heard that it is in publication in
England--do you have any idea of when it will appear here?

------------------------------

Date: 09-Sep-1981
From: PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO
Reply-to: "PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Time Decay of SF Series

Successful series (by no means complete):
        Middle Earth - Tolkien
        Pern - McCaffrey
        Foundation - Asimov
        Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - Donaldson
        Known Space - Niven
        Callahan's Bar - Robinson

Unsuccessful series (not complete, either):
        Dune - Herbert
        Riverworld - Farmer
        Amber - Zelazny

From the above admittedly partial list, I draw the conclusion that it
is \not/ true that series generally exhibit a downhill trend.  In each
case, though, there are reasons why the series was a success or a
flop.

DUNE was one of the best SF novels that I have ever read.  The great
charm of the story was the uniqueness of the planet Arrakis and the
society of the Fremen.  Unfortunately, the Fremen society as it
existed in DUNE is destroyed at the conclusion of the novel, and the
character of Arrakis is radically altered.  Thus, the main charm of
the series was removed after the first book.  I think that many series
writers make this mistake, and that is why so many of the sequels seem
to be less satisfying than the first book.

The RIVERWORLD and AMBER series seem to have simply gotten out of
control.  The concepts in each case were probably too grandiose for
\any/ author to handle successfully.  The long time span between the
release of the books in these series hurt the continuity and
consistency.  No author can be expected to remember all the nuances
and subplots of such involved stories over a period of several years!
Once again, dynamite first books, disappointing sequels.

The successful series all seem to have two factors in common.  They
all set up rich secondary universes (as opposed to one-shot concepts
like DUNE), without involving so many subplots that no successful
resolution is possible (the problem with RIVERWORLD and AMBER).
Unlike RIVERWORLD, each segment of the series (note: "The Lord of the
Rings" counts as one segment) has an ending and can stand by itself as
a complete story.

NOTE - Some may object that the "Callahan's Bar" stories and much of
Known Space are short stories and novelettes rather than novels, and
therefore shouldn't be counted in this discussion of series.  Recall,
though, that the FOUNDATION trilogy was first published as individual
stories, and pasted together into a novel later.

--Paul

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 0100-MDT
From: Dudley Irish <IRISH at UTAH-20>
Subject: Gormenghast and Dhalgren, a yes vote.

        When the subjects of good series first started I was going to
suggest the GORMENGHAST series, but now I wonder.  I will be the first
to admit that the story line is rather complex with many well
developed themes and that the metaphors are subtle and frequent, but I
have never held these things against an author.  I would suggest that
those who found it confusing the first time through give it a second
read and as for those who could not make it through once, well, maybe
you should stick to Flash Gordon (which is a good strip, but, one must
admit, not too deep).  I would, particularly, like to recommend
GORMENGHAST because of the writing style which is very refreshing.
        As for DHALGREN, the people who can not finish it should see
my comments above.  I have found it a very interesting book and have
read it 4 or 5 times.  The setting is unique, bordering on fantasy.  I
feel that it contains many insights into human behavior and makes good
reading.  There are several interesting facets to the plot that make
me want to recommend it to any one who is not afraid of a long book.
        As a closing comment I should mention that the SF books I read
are usually ones that have been recommended, otherwise I simply look
for the thick ones. (Any recommendations?)

                                                Dudley Irish

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 0227-PDT (Monday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: The "Gor" Series

**** HEAPS OF GOR ****

OK.  Since someone seriously asked about the content of the "Gor"
books, I will say a bit more than the simple "BAD" I spewed forth in
my previous message.

The first of the MANY (15?) and never ending series of Gor books
("Tarnsman of Gor") was published in 1966 by John Norman Lange.
Within a couple of books he had changed his penname to simply "John
Norman" (probably to avoid having bricks thrown at his person by
people who had read his books and could FIND him).  The series
involves a character named "Tarl Cabot", who finds himself transported
to the planet "Gor" -- the "counter-earth", which is in Earth orbit on
the opposite side of Sol.  (It is recognized that this would have been
detected in various ways and is unstable in any case, but it is
"explained" in the course of the first novel).

It is difficult to give an appropriate feel for this series in just a
few lines.  Gor is pictured as a savage world, where women are the
absolute, total, and complete inferiors to men.  Some are "free", many
are "slave", but all are considered to be the "natural slaves" of men.
The series (as far as I was able to stomach it) consists largely of
Tarl reducing various women to slavery (which they all learn to love,
of course.)  There are very long, rambling discourses on Gorean
philosophy and society, with an emphasis on the "correctness" of the
Gorean flavor of slavery.  I tell ya, every 10th word in the book is
"slave".

Calling the Gor series "uneven" is calling the inside of a
thermonuclear fireball "warm".  Lange succeeds in drawing a very
complete and detailed picture of the world he has (hopefully) created
(he claims it is all real, by the way), but he is SO WORDY, and SO
REPETITIVE that it can drive you totally, utterly, and absolutely
INSANE -- ARRRRRRRRGH!  Phew.  I feel better now.  As I was saying...

The first book in the series is not TOO bad.  It was "not bad" enough
when I first read it to risk reading number 2.  Bad.  Well, maybe
number 3 will be better.  Worse.  Sigh.  At that point I stopped
buying them and started skimming VERY quickly if I came across someone
who had one.  After a couple more skimmed, I stopped totally -- it was
REALLY getting disgusting.  I have to admit that I was starting to get
a perverse enjoyment out of seeing just how much WORSE the series
could get -- but even I have my limits.

To the person who was concerned because his/her thirteen year old son
was starting to read the series... hmmm.  I would not be terribly
worried.  Kids today are exposed to the same sort of crappy ideas in
much more explicit manners than Lange provides.  Concepts such as S&M
and the like seem to be fully known (if not really understood) by all
American children over the age of ten these days.  Any reasonably
intelligent teenager should quickly grow tired of the series and move
on to more serious fare.  If they DON'T, *then* you might have a
problem -- but it is always best not to impose censorship, even on
children, unless it is absolutely necessary (for the children -- I
don't believe in censorship of adult reading material under any
circumstances, except for national security and that kind of thing.)

Maybe somebody out there has kept up with the series past the point
where I dropped out.  My only contact with the series these days is
seeing a new one pop up on the shelves down at "A Change of Hobbit"
every so often.  I usually pick it up and scan quickly to see if the
writing style has changed at all -- it always seems worse.

Just two more comments, and then I can hopefully put Lange to rest.
If someone took all of Norman's novels and cleaned up the writing alot
(in a stylistic sense), then the entire multitude could probably be
reduced down to about 3 books, which might be moderately interesting.
There would still be many offensive concepts, but then there is
nothing wrong with offensive concepts in books, you usually don't HAVE
to read them if you don't want to.

The other point.  On the same shelf with Lange's Gor series (they are
always filed under "N" for "Norman" by the way), you will find two
other books.  One is called, I believe, "Time Slave", and expresses
the same old Lange philosophy in a prehistoric (instead of extra-
terrestrial) setting (or so a quick scan would imply.)  The other is
much more amusing.  Entitled "Imaginative Sex", it is a sex manual
-- sort of a Gorean sex manual, actually.  It suffers from many of the
same defects as Lange's other writings, but is the only place where he
actually explains some of the philosophy behind his Gorean writings,
and tries to put things into a "real world" framework.  Instead of the
100% tripe of the Gor series, it is only about 95% tripe.  If you see
it laying around, skim it quickly (especially the first few chapters);
it will give some insight into Lange that helps to explain the rest of
his "works".

Enough on Lange.  Enough on Gor.

--Lauren--

P.S.  I hope the Gorean Priest-Kings don't take offense at this
message.  If they do, I may find out first hand if there is a GOR-TIP.
Oh well, them's the breaks, I guess.

--LW--
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #68
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 SEP 1981 2225-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #68
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Sep 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:
             Administrivia - New SF Convention Calendar,
          SF Movies - Star Trek II & Movie-making "trivia",
    SF Books - Series (Gormenghast/Lewis/Childe Cycle/Foundation/
      Nero Wolfe/Foster/GOR) & Sexism (Varley) & Lord of Light &
             Unfinished books (Cherryh/Dhalgren/Pynchon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18-Sep-81 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <MDP at MIT-AI>
Subject: Major Update of SF Cons List

The latest SF Convention Calendar is now available for FTP'ing.
Everyone interested in reading this material should obtain the file
from the site which is most convenient for them.  If you cannot do so,
please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and we will be happy to make
sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will also be
available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Rich
Zellich for preparing the calendar, and to Alyson L. Abramowitz, Roger
Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman, Don Woods, and
Paul Young for providing space for the materials on their systems.


   Site                 Filename

MIT-AI                  AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CONS
CMUA                    TEMP:CONS.TXT[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC (text)        [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Con-cal
PARC-MAXC (press)       [Ibis]<Weissman>SFL>Con-cal.press
SU-AI                   CONS.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics             >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>conventions.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11          KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]cons.txt
DEC TOPS-20             KL2137::FTN20:<SF>CONS.TXT

[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date:  8 Sep 1981 0947-PDT
From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL
Subject: Star Trek II

From Daily Variety, Friday, September 4, 1981:

NICHOLAS MEYER TO DIRECT PAR'S 'STAR TREK II'
Nicholas Meyer has been signed to direct "Star Trek II", under-
$10,000,000 film to be done through Paramount Television that will
once again feature most of the original tv series cast.

Paramount will release the project theatrically abroad but has decided
to take a "wait-and-see posture" domestically.  At one point, it had
been planned as a two-hour telefilm and later anticipated as a
feature.  Word is creative personnel are receiving salaries
commensurate with a feature film.

Lensing on "Star Trek II" begins in November for about two months from
a script by Jack Sowards, Sam Peeples and Harve Bennett.  Bennett also
serves as producer.  Both Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner will
return to star.

Special effects, which proved to be the major cost overrun of the
original $40,000,000-plus Paramount "Star Trek" film released in 1979,
will be handled by Industrial Light & Magic in Northern California.
ILM recently did effex on Par's "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" and
"Dragonslayer".

Director Meyer's most recent work has been in the feature medium.  He
wrote and directed the 1979 Orion-Warner Bros. release, "Time After
Time", in addition to penning the 1976 Universal pic, "The Seven
Per-Cent Solution".  He also wrote the 1975 telefilm "The Night That
Panicked America" and a 1974 effort, "Judge Dee In The Monastery
Murders".  Earlier, Meyer worked as Paramount publicist in New York
and was the unit publicist on "Love Story."


[Thanks also to Steve Upstill (Cory.upstill at Berkeley) for
submitting this article.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 01:41:42-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: "trivia" questions -- Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #63

One more time...this one seems easy.  Save for the fact that C3PO is
the wrong sex, he is suspiciously like the female mechanical object
d'amour in Fritz Lang's Metropolis.  A note on all of this...Both of
the prior "trivia" questions were largely matters of opinion.  *I*
never thought RotLA reminded me of "I Love a Mystery" any more or less
than it reminded me of "King Solomon's Mines" or even "The Mummy."
What is true is that *all* of these spring from a common interest in
exotic locales and adventurous heroes...the same impulse that made
people interested in the late Lowell Thomas.  Nor is the mothership
hatch in CEotTK (Close Encounters of the Third Kind) particularly
close in lighting or form to the War of the World's hatch.  There are,
after all, only a finite number of ways to get out of a vehicle.

The point is, if something seems similar it may not have necessarily
been "lifted," it may be the result of a common symbolic intent.  The
tools that film directors and designers use are of the limited set of
symbols common to us both, the audience and the creators.  If they
seem familiar, it may be only because they are part of the symbolic
ground we share.  You may read into it more similarity than is
actually there.

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 2250-EDT (Monday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Gormenghast & Varley (Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #65)

Gormenghast: Well, you have to like Peake to like Gormenghast.
Personally, I think he goes out of his way to make his unpleasant
characters thoroughly unpleasant, unpleasant situations really ugly,
and I come away from his works generally disgusted at the offensive
characters he created.  This, indeed, may be a skill for graphical
description which he had, but I'd rather see such talent used in a
more upbeat manner.  For example, I found his "Boy in Darkness" (in
"Sometime, Never", Ballantine, 1957) very disturbing years ago; so
disturbing that I thought (now, you understand, this was about the
fourth SF book I read) "If this is SF, I really don't want to see any
more".  Peake also did the illustrations for Gormenghast, and I've
encountered other of his illustrations; they have the same skill and
grotesquerie.  If you read Peake, be prepared for a colossal downer.

Varley: I've suspected that his strongly portrayed scenes of violence
against women carried a more subtle message: "Here is this character
you have begun to like.  Look how offensive this treatment is.  Rape
is ugly."  This may convey an important message to the more sensitive
male readers who might otherwise not think much about it.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 1152-EDT
From: David Dyer-Bennet
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #61 )

(HJJH at UTEXAS-11) re C.S. Lewis' Space trilogy: interesting
comments.  From a moderately anti-Christianity viewpoint, I found the
third book much better than the second, possibly tied with the first.
I felt that the second book was just plain badly written.

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #63 )

(cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)) Gordy's Childe cycle also has a
historical component, possibly also 3 novels worth.  I hope he manages
to finish it all.

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #64 )

(Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>) Books I couldn't finish: Downbelow
Station by C. J. Cherryh.  Also her first Faded Sun book (therefore
didn't try the next two).  I think there's one other one within the
SF/fantasy genre, but I can't remember what it is.  I do still own the
ones listed. (Like you, I rarely dispose of books, and rarely fail to
finish them).

(J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70@BRL>) That's a pretty pale defense of Lord
of Light.  In my opinion, LoL is one of the two or three best-written
books I have ever read.  (Lest someone call me on this, let me add
that what I've just written isn't a defense of LoL, simply a statement
of my opinion about the book.)

(ISAACS at SRI-KL) I think that what you have heard about Gor is
essentially accurate.  I am told that the earlier books are more
reasonable than the later ones.  I have only read some of the later
ones, so I cannot comment myself.

(lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)) I hate to seem to defend
the Gor series, but they are much too complex to have been programmed
out of a trash-80.  The writing style is bizarre, and probably bad,
but I think that the proper grounds to nominate it for "worst series"
would be the "plots" and other content.

------------------------------

Date: 16-SEP-1981 11:31
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL Responses

(SFLovers Digest        Volume 4, Issue 63)

(DYER-BENNETT at KL2137) I seem to remember Asimov saying (in print)
that he stopped writing Foundation stories because he had to keep
going back to the previous ones to be consistent and it stifled his
creativity.

As for non-SF series that don't go downhill, what about Nero Wolfe?
(40 years, seventy+ stories, and nobody ever aged - now that's
immortality!)

(SFLovers Digest        Volume 4, Issue 64)

(ISAACS at SRI-KL) GOR is the pits.  I sampled one book once and
tossed it (and nearly my cookies, too) when the narrator (a female
slave, of a type which apparently appears in every book) spent pages
detailing her condition and delighting in being owned.  Since nothing
is more desirable than forbidden fruit, I suggest you sit down with
your kid and discuss and debunk the hell out of the series.  Even the
CONAN series is better.

(Lauren at UCLA-Security)  Not even a TRS-80 is that offal.

(Spratt.Multics at MIT-Multics) It's about time someone mentioned
Foster's humanx books.  The Flinx series is consistently enjoyable,
and so is the related series set on frozen Tran-ky-ky.  I wish Foster
would lay off the movie novelizations and get back to his own
creations.

------------------------------
Date: 16 Sep 1981 11:14:13-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: alleged Gor study

   I find the claim that most Gor readers are women considerably less
believable than most Harlan Ellison stories (Harlan Pushing the Fan
down the Elevator Shaft, etc.)---unless the college professor were
John F. Lange, in which case the claims themselves are suspect (among
other things, I've never known a philosopher to understand anything
about statistics).
   There was a thin survey done a while back by a Baltimore-based
fanzine (I believe it was KOLVIR, which started around Amber and went
in interesting directions from there) which suggested that a majority
of Gor readers are early-adolescent males (which is slightly more
believable if you're a Freudian, since one of their theories is that
most sexual perversions represent the freezing of emotional
development at some stage short of maturity). It would be interesting
to get some solid data on this, since \somebody/ is buying that tripe.

------------------------------

Date: 16 September 1981 15:04 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Gor

Oh, and one other thing.  An analysis of letter frequencies indicates
that the manuscripts were typed one-handed.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 16 September 1981 1130-EDT
From: David Ackley at CMU-10A
Subject: Books I did finish

Like many people, apparently, I found Dhalgren to be a tough read
through most of it, because I kept expecting that sooner or later
Delany would tie things up and explain just what the hell was going on
(Who is this guy?  Now who is THAT guy?  What's this sword bracelet
all about anyway?  That sort of thing.)

At some point in the 'Plague Journal' section, though, I finally
realized that I had been barking up the wrong dimension; that Delany
had no interest in tying Dhalgren together into a coherent plot-
oriented book; that Delany was writing a 'mood piece' or something
like that, as he can be wont to do.  With this frame established in my
head, I was able to finish the thing, and, although I didn't think it
great, I did wish that I had realized what was going on much earlier
in the book -- I think I would have enjoyed it more.

Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" on the other hand, I enjoyed immensely.
Although I can't call it SF, I would want to voice another opinion to
the person who was told that it got better just after the point he
started reading:  For my tastes, if you didn't like the first twenty
pages or so, give up.  It doesn't change significantly.  I was very
glad it didn't.
        -Dave

------------------------------

Date: 16 September 1981 14:17 edt
From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: The revilement of DHALGREN.

Not only did I manage to get through Dhalgren, I greatly enjoyed it.
In fact I enjoyed it enough to read it several times (> 2).

Sometime after my first reading of it I ran across a review of it by
Theodore Sturgeon.  His review started with the statement "Dhalgren is
the best book I have ever read." This sentence was followed by a few
blank lines and a continuation to the effect "Since this is a book
review and few people will be satisfied with just that statement, I'll
provide some commentary; but there is very little else that really
needs to be said."

I was pleased to find that an author I respected was as pleased with
Dhalgren as I (more so, actually), especially in the face of all the
quick dismissals which the book generates among fellow readers.
Sturgeon had an interesting insight into what some of the subject
matter of Dhalgren is which had not occurred to me. It may have
nothing to do with Delany's intentions, but it seems plausible.

He proposed that the book is an extended allegory for the experience
of adolescence.  Having had this pointed out to me, it was obvious (on
reflection) that the book works very well as such an allegory; the
sexual confusions, complete lack of knowledge of one's own identity
exemplified by the hero not knowing his name, the existence of the
world on a "take it or leave it, but you don't get any explanations"
basis (where did the two moons come from, why was one called
"George"?), the popular but senseless fads which swept the community
(the red eyes, the iron "orchids"), and perhaps most interestingly the
partial resolution provided by the ending.

I suppose my initial liking for the book was based on the rich
characterizations and settings, and the bizarre turns and twists of
the story.  I also appreciate literary experimentation, attempts to
use unusual literary devices for communicating with the reader, such
as the "notebook" format of the final pages of the book.

A question: was there a reference to Bellona (the city in which the
"action" of Dhalgren takes place) in either Nova or Triton?  I think
there was, but I can't place it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-SEP  "MDP at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #69
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 SEP 1981 2256-EDT
From: MDP at MIT-AI (Mike Peeler)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #69
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Sep 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:
         Administrivia - No Missing Digests & New Moderator,
     SF Events - Voyager 2 discussion, SF TV - Pop science shows,
             SF Books - Hilbert Schenk & Vance's titles &
                     Series (Laumer's Retief/GOR)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1:26am  Thursday, 24 September 1981
From: Mike Peeler (The Moderator) <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: No Missing Digests & New Moderator

This is the first SFL digest in a week.  If you have up to V4 #68, you
have it all, never fear.

I've been running around the past week getting my act together for the
upcoming school year.  This digest is scheduled to be my last SFL, as
Jim McGrath, our regular moderator, has returned from Europe (in spite
of the air controllers).

It's been fun,

           Mike

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1981 1313-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Voyager 2 at Saturn

OASIS presents:

                         Voyager 2 at Saturn

                           Richard P. Rudd
                    Voyager Deputy Project Manager

                Saturday, September 26, 1981, 7:00 pm
              California Musuem of Science and Industry
                          Kinsey Auditorium

On August 25, 1981, the Voyager 2 spacecraft passed by the planet
Saturn at a distance of 63,000 miles.  At our September 26 general
meeting, Richard P. Rudd, deputy project manager for the Voyager
mission at JPL, will discuss the results of the mission and its
contribution to our understanding of the solar system.  He will show
the latest mission photos and explain the plans for Voyager 2's
encounter with Uranus in 1986.  Join us for another exciting meeting
soon after a Voyager encounter similar to last November's presentation
by David Morrison which drew nearly 500 people.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 81 11:03-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: OMNI: The New Joke

OMNI: The New Joke and The Future: Who Cares are both joke programs
aimed at the level of 5-year olds (which I suspect will be reasonable
for the general viewing audience). I've come to the conclusion that
commerical TV is incapable of producing a good science series. The
least offensive science series on TV in increasing order of
offensiveness are:
        NOVA
        Fast Forward
        Universe (marred by Walter's boring delivery)

The first two are usually worth watching.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 02:00:09-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: "The Eye of the Ocean", by Hilbert Schenk

I'd like to concur in Mike O'Brien's review of "The Eye of the Ocean".
Don't be put off by the cover blurb, which make it sound like a badly-
written gothic -- it's an excellent book, and well worth the read.  It
does get a bit mystical in places (and is much more fantasy than SF in
any event), and that leads to my only complaint -- that the mystical
aspects are presented much too briefly, with too little explanation of
the rather intriguing theses.  On the other hand, maybe I didn't
follow it because I got to those sections in the wee hours of the
morning -- I couldn't put the book down.  Very well-written, very
powerful.

I share with Mike his questions about the author.  Does anyone know
even know if Hilbert Schenk is male or female (my guess is female)?
And was there an astronomer named Maria Mitchell, active around 1850?

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 14 Sep 1981 10:29-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Re: "The Eye of the Ocean", by Hilbert Schenk

        I now understand that Hilbert Schenk is an oceanographer at
Woods' Hole.


[Mike O'Brien's original comments on Hilbert Schenk appeared on August
21 in SFL V4 #46.  Readers who would like a copy of that review, send
a letter saying so to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST.  -- MDP]
------------------------------

Date: Monday, 14 Sep 1981 10:27-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Jack Vance tidbit

        I once talked to Jack Vance about ten years ago, and he
mentioned something very interesting: almost all of his books get
retitled, because his working titles are so incredibly short.  "The
Eyes of the Overworld", for instance, had the working title "Cugel".
Once you know this, it's interesting to note which of his books
(probably) weren't retitled.  "The Faceless Man", for instance,
appeared in magazine serial form as "The Anome" - to my mind, much the
better title.  I would bet anything that "The Brave Free Men" had a
working title of "The Rogushkoi", and "The Asutra", of course, would
stand.

        Similarly, in the Planet of Adventure series, "City of the
Chasch" and "Servants of the Wankh" would collapse pretty predictibly,
given the titles of the last two, which I would bet are unchanged:
"The Dirdir" and "The Pnume".  Same thing with the non-series novel
"Emphyrio".

        Mind you, the only one I have his authority on is "The Eyes of
the Overworld".  But, it's a fun intellectual exercise.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 1049-PDT
From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: yet another series

How about Keith Laumer's Retief series?  Although it really doesn't
progress from one story or novel to another, the quality (or lack of
same) seems uniform throughout.  (Actually I shamefacedly admit that I
enjoy reading the Retief stories when I don't want anything particular
to think about, like on a plane trip.)

Peter

------------------------------

Date: 18 September 1981 0945-EDT (Friday)
From: Marc.Donner at CMU-10A
Subject: More series ...

A couple of series that I have known and liked which I haven't noticed
mentioned in the discussion of series are: "A Touch of Strange" and
related stories by Theodore Sturgeon and the "Lancelot O'Leary" and
"Retief" stories by Keith Laumer.  Laumer's stuff is light and fluffy
but lots of fun ... good to take on a long plane flight.  Sturgeon is
much too good to be taken that lightly, however.  AToS is about a
gestalt entity, a new "being" composed of several physical people
(several children) and its (how about a new pronoun to encode this
idea ... from the Middle English "them" - hem {nominative} hir
{genitive} ...) experiences as it discovers itself and explores its
mind and capabilities.

I have to admit, however, that I don't think that the best SF is
present in series at all (I know that that wasn't the topic under
discussion, but perhaps we can wander) ... Sturgeon has written almost
no series, Dune is only a single novel (follow ons are no-ops) and so
on.  I would like to see a discussion of those SF works that could
have been made into series if the authors had been greedy enough to
cave in to demands for "more of the same."  "Pandora's Planet" was a
wonderful short story, and an adequate novel, but if it becomes a
series, it will be terrible.  More?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: 09/15/81 0948-EDT
From: j.baldassini <GNC at LL>
Subject: Story query ; sf series

 A couple of items:

   There exists a short story, by either Simak or Sturgeon (or
 possibly someone else) in which an alien crash-lands in the backyard
 of an old, retired farmer-type person. The pilot soon dies from his
 injuries, and the farmer buries him. A plant grows from the grave,
 and soon it gives bloom to that same alien pilot, who then sets about
 repairing his damaged spacecraft. It turns out the alien needs
 silver, which the old man has been hoarding, but which he reluctantly
 gives to the alien so that he may journey home.  Can anyone help me
 with the title and author of this story ?

    My nominee for a science-fiction series which does not go downhill
 (and I'm really surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet) is Keith
 Laumer's collection of Retief stories.  For those not familiar with
 the series, Retief is a member of the CDT (Corps Diplomatique
 Terrestriene - excuse any misspellings, please) - the diplomatic
 branch of the Terran Empire.  Retief generally appears as an aide (
 "Oh him, he's the young man who carries my briefcase...") or some
 other low-ranking diplomat within the CDT, and is usually responsible
 for cleaning up some political mess inspired by his immediate
 superior, Mr. Magnan.
   There are at least three novels (Retief's War, Retief and the
 Warlords, and Retief's Ransom) as well as numerous short stories
 which have been collected by various publishers.  These stories are
 filled with humor and satire, and make for very entertaining, light
 reading.

     "Gee, Mr. Retief, how do YOU tell the North Squeemans from the
      South Squeemans ? "

     "That's easy, Freddie, the South Squeemans are natural
      democrats."

------------------------------

Date: 9/16/81, 12:47 PM
From: ucbvax!vax135!hocsg!brs at Berkeley (b.r.schatz)
Reply-to: "ucbvax!vax135!hocsg!brs c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: origins of Gor

The first few books of this series were written by Michael Crichton
(before he hit the jackpot with the Andromeda Strain).  They are
above-average adventure stories of the "John Carter" vein, e.g. the
hero is transported to another planet to which he adapts so well that
he conquers a nation while winning a princess.  The background and
occasional aliens were also interesting (I particularly remember a
giant spider whose humanity compared very favorably with that of the
princess.)  The slavery and female subjugation played a minor role (no
more than typical of such stories; in fact the hero disapproved of
it).  However, when someone else (Lange) took over the series, this
element became the dominant (!) theme.  Thus the later novels contain
a small amount of adventure and a large amount of muscular male
warriors turning proud beautiful women into willing pliant slaves via
sexual humiliation.  It is very reminiscent of the bondage literature
found in pornographic bookstores (although better written).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 81 2:19:05-EDT (Tue)
From: Michael Muuss <mike.bmd70 at BRL>
Subject: An Interesting Conversation

For the curious, an interesting conversation with Joe Pistritto
<JCP.BMD70@BRL> about the Gor Series:

Mike: Interesting discussion on Gor in SFL...  I think it would be
Mike: neat to OpScan the whole batch of 12 (14? 16?) books in, and
Mike: eliminate the 40% - 50% of junk commentary "My name was
Mike: Elizabeth Crass, and I used to be the head of my class, and I
Mike: used to be sooo haughty, but now I realize I am a *true* slave
Mike: ..." which recurs every page or two, and then read the rest.
Mike: The writing is INTOLERABLE, the stories are not completely
Mike: without merit as Barbaric/Swords type stories.  Still, this is
Mike: probably flogging a dead horse.

Joe:  how many of the books have you read?

Mike: I have read 4, but only own 3.

Joe:  I currently own all 15 that are out so far, and OPscanning them
Joe:  would be tough.  (Actually, neat, but definitely tough.)
Joe:  Actually, some of the commentary is quite useful.  For instance,
Joe:  in about book 5 or 6, which is about when Tarl Cabot becomes the
Joe:  captain of a pirate fleet, there's this WONDERFUL discussion of
Joe:  the relative merits of square vs. lateen rigged ships.
Joe:  (European classical sailing ships are square, Chinese and
Joe:  Egyptian are lateen rigged.)

Mike: No complaints about that.  I have read #1 (Snarled Cabbage), and
Mike: the most recent 3, which don't fit into the Tarl... saga, and
Mike: have become somewhat yucky.  #1 was written much better than the
Mike: recent stuff.

Joe:  Well, there was less of the "Gee, I never knew being raped could
Joe:  be so much fun" type stuff from the slave girls, but then that's
Joe:  in their mainly for mass-market appeal, I suspect.  (Norman had
Joe:  made his basic point about women by about book 4, I'd say).  It
Joe:  changes little after that.  There's some GREAT sequences about
Joe:  sword/primitive weapon fighting in the intermediate books, plus
Joe:  you actually get to MEET the Gorean Priest Kings everyone is
Joe:  always alluding to.  I actually drew a map of Gor at one point
Joe:  (it doesn't appear ANYWHERE in the books).

Mike: Could be interesting to see the map.  One day I will probably
Mike: borrow the rest of the T.C. story and see what happens...

Joe:  I noticed that I seemed to be the ONLY one on the net that
Joe:  thought the series had any redeeming value, but I suppose that
Joe:  that's because some of the philosophic concepts are relatively
Joe:  incompatible with the basic academic/intellectual point of view,
Joe:  (of which most net readers are a part)

Mike: Actually, most SF readers think the Gor is pure drek.  I tend to
Mike: agree that the WRITING is crap, but the message MAY be more
Mike: interesting than that.  Otherwise, there are some large gaps to
Mike: be filled in, but Gor could be an interesting society to write
Mike: about.  Some of the people responding to your earlier SFL letter
Mike: hinted that they thought the society was interesting, but were
Mike: unwilling to align themselves with something "so obviously
Mike: exploitive".

Joe:  Well, I've never been one to complain about obvious
Joe:  exploitation, particularly when it's done by upstanding
Joe:  counter-revolutionary enemies of the working class...
Joe:  (Sorry, the Tass tape got stuck.)
Joe:  As I was saying, I'm generally not afraid to align myself with
Joe:  things that are exploitative, or otherwise conservative, (being
Joe:  a long-standing right-winger), I generally judge stuff by
Joe:  whether
Joe:      1) it can hold my attention long enough to finish the book
Joe:              (Heinlein never has managed it well)
Joe:      2) I overall enjoyed the experience of reading it
Joe:              (here GOR is a little below average)
Joe:  so, by those two standards, I judge it considerably about the
Joe:  drivel level (although I think several of the CONAN books could
Joe:  go there).

Mike: ----
Mike: How would you feel about my digesting our discussion down and
Mike: sending it to SFL?

Joe:  It might generate a bit of a stir (some of your more sensitive
Joe:  intellectual types really get pissed when you question their
Joe:  major premises...)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-SEP  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #70
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 SEP 1981 0530-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #70
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Sep 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
                    Administrivia - New Moderator,
         SF TV - "NOVA: Computers,Spies and Private Lives" &
            The Tomorrow People & Omni: The New Frontier &
                  The Future: What's Next & Dr. Who,
           SF Books - The Smoke Ring & Series (Vance/GOR) &
                     Unfinished books (Dhalgren),
        SF Movies - The Wailing Asteroid & Galaxy of Terror &
                           Star Wars naming
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12:57am  Friday, 25 September 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: New Moderator

Well, perhaps "new" is slightly misleading, since many of you will
remember me as last year's Moderator.  All I've really done is to
take a (well deserved) vacation in Europe this summer.  And even
there I was still meeting readers of the digest!

All the same, I'm glad to be back with you folks for another year
of digests.  Keep those messages coming!

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1981 1629-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: NOVA program this weekend

NOVA, the PBS science show, is starting up new shows after the reruns
of summer. The first is scheduled to air this weekend (Sunday at 8,
although it may be different in your area). The title: 'Computers,
Spies and Private Lives', an examination of prviacy and the lack of it
in our computerized society.

Looks interesting.

------------------------------

Date: 09/15/81 08:23:38
From: PCR at MIT-MC
Subject: Niven "sequel" to Ringworld coming.

According to the Sept '81 issue of Science Fiction Chronicle, Larry
Niven has signed a $100K contract for another novel to be set in the
Known Space framework.

Quoting: "I've got a location that's a match for the Ringworld, but
it's natural - it's not an artificial structure. It's a free-fall
environment with a breathable atmosphere. It has some other
peculiarities, and of course those will largely form the basis of the
novel."

The novel is to be called The Smoke Ring, and is scheduled for a late
1983 publication date by Del Rey. At present, only an outline, the
first chapter and part of the second chapter has been written.

                                    ...phil

------------------------------

Date: 9-SEP-1981 23:39
From: WAFER::SEILER
Reply-to: "WAFER::SEILER in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: "The Wailing Asteroid" Movie

    I also can't remember the name of the movie that was (allegedly)
made from this short story, but it is not "very bad".  Rather, it is
horribly delightful.  It was supposed to be taken seriously, but ends
up hilariously funny.  For example, there is a scene where the son of
the archaeologist is dreaming about this alien planet.  Two moons are
superimposed on the sky.  An explosion occurs, and the dust cloud
rises up \\behind// the moons.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1981 0621-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: "Galaxy of Terror"

I have been seeing TV ads for some sort of equivalent of an "SF
slasher" movie called "Galaxy of Terror"; since EVERY SF movie is
discussed on this list, I have been wondering why no mention has been
made of it.  It seems to be some sort of combination of "Alien" and
"Battlestar Galactica", with the effex being at the BS Gal. level.  Is
it being test-marketed in this area (St.Louis) so you all out there
are not exposed to news of it?  (If so, you're probably lucky.)

However, since this opinion is all based on the TV blurbs, I can't be
sure it really is bad -- who knows, it might be another "Dark Star" or
a future cult classic, and I am privileged to be in at its birth...
(Probability reading on the foregoing is approaching the
infinitesimal...)

Would appreciate seeing comments/descriptions/reviews from the film
buffs.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 21-Sep-1981
From: PAUL DICKSON AT ZIP
Reply-to: "PAUL DICKSON AT ZIP in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: The Tomorrow People, and other new TV shows

"The Tomorrow People" is a new British TV SF series available on
Nickelodeon, the "young people's" cable channel.  I have tried to
watch enough of it to see who is behind it, but this is difficult -
the mind wanders.

It is from Thames Television.  The production style is about the same
as Dr. Who (cheap sets, special effects limited to what the TV effects
console can do, uninspired acting, insipid plots), and I have the
feeling that it is done by the same people, but can't prove it.  Isn't
Dr. Who from BBC?

The idea is generally as follows:  There are these teenagers who are
the first of the next stage in human development.  They have various
telepathic powers, and wear wrist-bands that let them teleport.  None
of them has any intelligence to speak of - that is supplied by the all
knowing computer (named Tim) that lives under their coffee table.
They go about fighting evil and rescuing previously unknown Tommorow
People (who are also always teenagers; remember this is on the "young
people's" channel).

The current episode has these two aliens disguised as earthmen.  They
are dressed in black three-piece suits with bowlers and umbrellas (to
blend in with the British population).  Unfortunately they beam down
in a small village in Scotland, where everybody wears kilts.

I tried several times to catch the ending credits, but I could never
stay with it that long.  It is on every weeknight, and maybe someone
else can catch it.  I seem to recall the name Roger Price as
developer, or something.

---
My attempts to watch tTP last Tuesday was made more difficult by the
premiere of the "Omni" TV show.  The feel of this is very much like
the magazine - slick, with a similar graphic style.  But like the
magazine, you get the feeling that maybe they aren't telling you
everything.  Not as mystic as "Cosmos", though.  The pacing is like
the Continuum section of the magazine, with several short items.
There might be one or two lengthier pieces. Peter Ustinov was host,
standing in a set with greek columns, etc.

---
Right after "Omni" was a CBS program on what life might be like in the
year 2000.  I hope it was a special and not a new series, as it was
terrible. George Plimpton and some woman whose name I missed were
hosts for a trip through techno-chic.  Whenever these two appeared,
they were standing on some sort of sliding belt that moved them
through the set.  The background was filled with fake computer
consoles (the kind where the lights blink too slowly).

They show a film on robotics, with an experimental voice control/voice
response robot arm, then the hosts would joke with one of those
remote-control robot things you meet at microcomputer shows and
supermarket openings.  The feel of this show was much like "Real
People".  They trotted out gee-whiz gadgets one after the other,
gee-whizzing about each one, and making predictions on how this or
that device might effect life in the future.  Very superficial.
Walter Cronkite did this better on his "Universe" show, and before
that on "The 21st Century".

---
So fans of Dr. Who might want to check out "The Tomorrow People".
"Omni" looks promising.  The CBS show is a loser.

------------------------------

Date: 31-AUG-1981 13:26
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Dr. Who - Uncut

In reply to Larry Seiler's reply to Brad Templeton (V4 I50):

The Doctor has just (at the end of the 80/81 season) undergone
regeneration.  The new Doctor is a (very) young British actor named
Peter Davison (or Dewison).  Anyway, it seems that Tom Baker felt that
seven years was long enough, married Lalla Ward, and opted out.

Also, public stations do leave the Doctor uncut.  At any rate, PBS
Channel 6 in Denver doesn't cut it.  In fact, this station shows all
segments of a serial on the same day (10:00 a.m. on Sunday).

This station just finished showing the last season two weeks ago.
Last week they showed the sixth (and final) "Keys of Time" (or
whatever the title is).  A leetle confusing - Romana was still in her
first regeneration and Lalla Ward guest starred as an alien princess.
(A likeably roguish renegade Time Lord named Drax also appeared - he
went to the Academy with the Doctor - class of '92 - and called him
Phete [phonetic spelling].)

Regards,
Susan

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 81 7:57:06-EDT (Tue)
From: Greg.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: TIE Bombers

        The TIE's in TESB which where bombing the asteroid were TIE
Bombers, they were to be used in SW but at the last moment were
deleted.  I was also under the impression that TIE meant Twin Ion
Engine.  Does anyone remember the Y Wing fighters the rebels used when
they attacked the Death Star?  No one at work does and I am wondering
if I dreamed them.

------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1981 12:13 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Gor and the kids
1. Lauren's observation that >>all<< 10-year-olds have been exposed to
S&M may be true around UCLA but does not hold here in Flyoverland.

2. These fascistoid fantasies are not entirely harmless; "Stranger in
a Strange Land" was Charles Manson's bible (he named his kid
Valentine).

3. Censorship is unworkable, but education helps.  Kids should be
aware of the logical outcome of such beliefs (e.g., the Holocaust).
Hanna Ahrendt's book on totalitarianism is a good place to start.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1981 23:17-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: INSANITY

  I, personally, must say that I resemble that remark, for I do NOT
like the GOR series, and look where I am!
  I think you meant to say CRAZY,or NUTS, fr INSANE tends to show some
taste (at least) outside of the realm of sanity.
  INSANELY yours,
--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 81 2:21:39-EDT (Tue)
From: Michael Muuss <mike.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: More Gor

If anybody is interested, there is a perfectly marvelous parody of the
Gor series titled "Housewives of Gore", by Joan(?) Saxon, published by
HopSFA in Baltimore.  They may let me read the DECtape and make it
availible if there is enough interest...
                        -Mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 21:13-EDT
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Vance - Planet of Adventure

At the risk of generating a spoiler:  There are either 3 races or 5
that colonize Tschai: Wankh, Dirdir, and 3 flavors of Chasch.  Men
were slaves (well, sort of) of the colonists.  The Pnume and Phung are
the natives and are certainly not homo sap!  This was the first Vance
I ever read (oh so many years ago) and I still enjoy it.  Great
escapist fiction!

-- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 81 8:22:01-EDT (Thu)
From: Greg.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: DHALGREN

        I have read a large number of books over the years an am happy
to say that there have been only two books that I have never finished.
They are DHALGREN and the other one by the same author TRITON.  My
personal feelings are they are both TRASH!!!!!!!  In both books the
author spends the entire time describing things, no time is spent on
the plot, characters, or any thing else.  As for the comment that if
you don't like DHALGREN you should read Flash Gordon, well at least
Flash is readable.

                        Power to the Turbos

------------------------------

Date: 18 September 1981 1127-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: Bellona reference

There's one in "Time Considered as a Helix..."

Tom P.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1981 18:01:24 EDT (Saturday)
From: Andrew Malis <malis at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Dhalgren and Bellona

DHALGREN is obviously one of those books that you either love or you
hate, and I happen to be in the "love" category.  I bought it in its
first edition when it first hit the shelves in January 1975 (it cost
$1.95 then; I'd be interested in seeing what they're charging for it
now), and I've re-read it many times since.  One of the things I
enjoyed is Delany's use of experimental styles to try to pass along
more information to the reader than just a train of words; the
notebook towards the end gives good insight into the thoughts and
moods of the "Kid".  Has anyone noticed that when the Kid sees his own
reflection in a department store window, his description of himself
resembles Delany?

I've also noted Delany's repeated use of Bellona.  Not only is it the
city in DHALGREN, but it's also mentioned in (at least) "Time
Considered as a Helix of Semiprecious Stones" (collected in DRIFTGLASS
as well as countless anthologies), "High Weir" (also in DRIFTGLASS),
TRITON (on p. 31 at least), and, I'm sure, elsewhere as well.  (I'd
just LOVE to have my SF library completely on-line; one could easily
do searches just for this kind of thing!)  In these references Bellona
is a city on Mars, which turns out to be quite appropriate.  Looking
up Bellona in my Webster's, I found:

Bellona, n. [L] in Roman mythology, the goddess of war, sister of
Mars.

In Edith Hamilton's MYTHOLOGY, I found the following, in her
description of Ares (Mars):
.... he has a train of attendants on the battlefield which should
inspire anyone with confidence.  His sister is there, Eris, which
means Discord, and Strife, her son.  The Goddess of War, Enyo, - in
Latin Bellona, - walks beside him, and with her are Terror and
Trembling and Panic.  As they move, the voice of groaning arises
behind them and the earth streams with blood.

I think that sounds quite appropriate for DHALGREN's Bellona,
especially towards the end of the book.

Andy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-SEP  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #71
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 SEP 1981 0355-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #71
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 26 Sep 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:
      SF Movies - Raiders Of The Lost Ark & Star Wars fighters,
     SF Books - To Sail the Century Sea & Heirs to the Kingdom &
               The Elves and the Otterskin & Fantasy &
        Starship and Haiku & Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang &
        The Weirdstone of Brisingamen & The Moon of Gomrath &
             Series (Perry Rhodan/GOR/Coramonde/Foster),
                       SF Topics - Immortality,
                Spoiler - New Star Trek motion picture
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1981 22:13-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Raiders Comment

  I saw RotLA the other night, and to put it in a nutshell, I thought
it was fantastic!
--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1981 0948-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Budrys reviews

    SCIENCE FICTION
    By Algis Budrys
    (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    Things You'll Never See in a Million Light-Years:
    One reporter discovers that superhuman mutants secretly rule the
Earth. He never says a word.
    A young prince hocks the magic ring.
    Intelligent whales in an undersea city pass a crooked bond issue.
    Titanic Chemical Co. announces a new energy source. An embattled
female ecologist proves no smarter than the rest of us and fails to
stop its installation. It turns out to be harmless and totally
beneficial.
    Forgive me. There are times when the mind reels. Things you will
see:
    In G.C. Edmonson's "To Sail the Century Sea" (Ace, $2.25), the
crew of a Navy sailing vessel is sent back in time to sabotage the
Council of Nicaea and alter the future so there's no Russia. A
paranoid security officer and Edmonson's casual approach to plotting
and dialogue make a half-botch out of this sequel to Edmonson's very
nice "The Ship That Sailed the Time Stream" of 15 years ago.
    In "Heirs to the Kingdom" (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, $12.95),
first novelist Kennedy Hudner has a drunken reporter discover that
three branches of a mysterious mutant race have been infiltrating us
for centuries. Caught in their incessant internecine struggles, hunted
for a foul murder he didn't commit, he then releases the mysterious
substance that will turn the entire population of the Eastern Seaboard
into mutants. Neither Hudner nor Holt nor Rinehart nor Winston appear
to have realized this is a satire, if it's anything.
    "The Elves and the Otterskin" (Del Rey, $2.50) finds reluctant
human hero Ivarr in the land of elves, dwarves, trolls and wizards, on
a quest for the magic sword so he can slay the dragon who guards the
treasure that will enable the five quarrelsome outlaw elves to pay the
weregild they owe for killing the king's son while he was disguised as
an otter. First novelist Elizabeth Boyer has a compelling feel for the
milieu of Scandinavian legend, and works out a competent skein of
narrative, but alloying her promising talents is an unfortunate gift
for anticlimax, and that's one struggle Ivarr loses.
    "Fantasy" (PinnacleTor, $2.50) is a collection of short tales by
Poul Anderson, who, when he isn't being SF's answer to C.S. Forester,
can be one of the best fantasists extant. These, however, are the
stories left out of his previous fantasy collections. Some of them are
just fine, and the talent is obviously there, but the total effect is
thin.
    "Starship and Haiku" (Pocket Timescape, $2.50) is the first novel
from Somtow Sucharitkul, who has the distinction of having been
nominated for best new SF writer of the year in both 1980 and 1981.
Set largely in a future Japan where the Earth's growing pollution has
made suicide nearly a social obligation, it depicts the struggle of a
few aware humans to co-operate with the whales in fleeing the planet.
    A bouncy, slangy Anglophone in person, Sucharitkul is a child of
diplomats and has lived all over the world, bringing an unusual
breadth of perception and a unique viewpoint to his work. But he needs
to polish his pacing and dialogue; otherwise, despite my reservations
about noble cetaceans - I mean, why should they be that much different
from us? - this isn't half bad.
    Reprints worth looking into:
    Particularly for younger readers, Alan Garner's "The Weirdstone of
Brisingamen" and "The Moon of Gomrath" (Del Ray, $1.95 each), two
1960s novels in the British fantasy format, with young Colin and Susan
as the humans who encounter magical struggles between Good and Evil.
Not marketed as juveniles - and I don't really believe in classifying
books that way - these do get a little talky for adults.
    Kate Wilhelm's 1976 Hugo-award-winning "Where Late the Sweet Birds
Sang" (PocketTimescape, $2.50), is justly famous in the SF community,
and probably the best novel ever written by this dependable and
admirable writer. With its tale of ecological disaster, however, it
now shares a number of features with books that came after it. Not
Wilhelm's fault, obviously; if anything, it's to her credit.
    But, oh! for one clear winner this month - one shining star, one
piece of work to take enjoyment from and glory in! Even a novel about
a race of humanoid robots who find themselves dying now that they've
breathed all the soot and eaten all the Big Mac carryout boxes. As
Earth grows ominously cleaner and cleaner, in a last desperate effort
to carry on their culture they re-create robot-shaped animal life....

------------------------------

Date: 1-SEP-1981 09:49
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Immortality

I've always had the gut feeling that life, no matter how long it is,
is what you make of it.  If you let yourself get bored, you've started
dying by inches.  If you become afraid to move for fear of hurting
yourself, you're already dead.  But if you keep your sense of wonder
(gosh, I feel like a Polyanna, but wotthehell, I'll finish), you don't
get old - you just get older.

In Heinlein's Time Enough For Love, the second leading cause of death
is suicide - people who have lived long enough to get bored have the
RIGHT to kill themselves - interference with this right is a criminal
offense.  At the beginning of the book, Lazarus has finally opted for
suicide, and is furious when he is stopped.

(Of course, the best argument against immortality/longitevity is
Ronald Reagan.)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 81 15:42:11-EDT (Mon)
From: Greg.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: Longest Series

        My favorite science fiction space opera series (sfsos) is the
Perry Rhodan series.  There are app. 136 of them in English and over
1000 in German.  The series is no longer published in English!  So if
any one knows an easy way to read German let me know!!!!!!!!!  I think
it is the best sfsos, it certainly is the biggest.  As for it getting
better or worst as it goes on, yes it does, both.  It is a roller
coaster series, it gets bad then better then great then bad then ....
The thing that drives me mad is that I read a things-to-come of the
series, right before the English version stopped, and sounds like the
best of the series is in the 500 book to 900 book range!
        Sigh !  Looks like I will have to learn to read German.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1981 10:51:26-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Gor

   It should be noted that another weakness of the Gor books (in
addition to the ones Lauren notes) is that Lange is appallingly
unoriginal. A friend with a broad knowledge of assorted Terran
cultures tells me that each book is based on a complete transplanta-
tion of \one/ Terran culture (slave-holding Inuit, slave-stealing
Arabs, slave-killing Kwakiutl, etc).  There are several authors
(particularly Cherryh) who build known cultural anthropology into
their work, but most of them mix their knowledge a little more
thoroughly.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 81 10:16:16-EDT (Fri)
From: Sue.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: Gor Parody

The author of "Housewives of Gor" is Joanna Saxon.
                Sue

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 18 September 1981  00:21-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: GOR books being sold

I heard a bookstore owner say at Westercon this summer that she flatly
refused to carry any of the "GOR" books.  (I thought it was Change of
Hobbit, but perhaps not.)  She said that they had been selling very
well, but she could only put a limited number of books on her shelves
and she had better things to sell than that sort of trash.

------------------------------

Date: 18 September 1981 2311-PDT (Friday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: A Horrible GORish Thought

Golly.  I just had a horrible thought.  Does anyone know if there
exists a GOR fan club?  Really now, is there one?  Can you imagine
what their conventions would look like?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1981 23:34-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Trending Series

  Another series and author which I would like to bring up, is The
Doomfarers of Coramonde and The Starfollowers of Coramonde, by Brian
Daley. I though Doomfarers was an excellent "fun" novel which Daley
wrote a few years back. The thought of trying to kill a dragon with a
white phosphorus grenade was amusing. In fact, pitting GI's in an
armored personnel carrier against a world which is a magic-using,
feudal society made the entire book a delight to read. Starfollowers
didn't quite have the same "zing" that the first book had, but I still
rate it far above average. They are both well worth reading.
  Speaking of Daley, Brian also wrote a trilogy, which was a takeoff
on Star Wars. He is probably more noted for these, rather than the
Coramonde books. The three books he wrote were: Han Solo at Star's
End; Han Solo's Revenge, and Han Solo and the Lost Legacy, all of
which deal with Han and Chewie before they met with Luke on Tatooine.
My personal opinion was that these books kept the integrity and
character of Han and Chewie, and broadened one's scope of the overall
characters. Once again, these are classified as "fun" books.
  Another Star Wars book, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, by Alan Dean
Foster might have been decent, but Empire came out and made a shambles
of the entire thing. Also, Foster relied heavily on the reader having
read or seen Star Wars. It cannot stand on its own, unlike Daley's
"trilogy". SotME is not very highly recommended, unless you are an
avid SW collector.
--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 09/15/81 08:40:16
From: David Wallace <Gumby at MIT-AI>
Subject: consistently good series'

Foster's Tar-aym Krang books do go downhill.  He can write stuff of
consistent quality, however; witness his Star Trek books.  Come to
think of it, most of the other Star Trek books are pretty bad, with
the possible exclusion of Jim Blish's adaptations...

In a similar vein, how many writers have had one or two good books and
then written nothing else but trash afterwards?  (examples: David
Gerrold, John Varley, Orson Scott Card...)

--david

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1981 1213-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  from III via Rand  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: "Son of Star Trek" and SIGGRAPH in alternate universes

I was up in the SF Bay Area recently and spoke with an Unnamed Source
at the Lucasfilm Sprocket Systems computer group. Some tests have been
done (last week) at SS for ILM for possible use in the Star Trek
sequel. When the film comes out watch for the computer graphics.

I also wanted to second what Mike Wahrman said a while back about
clips from "Revenge of the Jedi" being shown at SIGGRAPH. I didn't
hear of or see any such, nor did I see Dykstra. There was in fact a 5
second clip of a squadron of five X-wing fighters in the III sample
reel. That was a test made for "The Empire Strikes Back" several years
ago. Beside being in Panavision squeeze format, that scene was some-
what impressive for its time, each of the x-wings is a polyhedral
database containing about 50,000 polygons. With several of those
suckers in the scene it was very demanding of computer resources.

No Jaggies!
Craig

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 81 16:45:55-EDT (Fri)
From: J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Y fighters

As far as I know, Y wing fighters, (related to X wings, except more
massive), appear only in the promotional literature for Star Wars.
(For instance, there are several on the poster distributed with the
soundtrack record).  I would assume this means they originally
appeared in the movie, but were cut out for some reason.  (probably
timing)
                                                -JCP-

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 09/26/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It gives away a
detail about the next Star Trek movie that everyone will almost
certainly hear of by the time the movie comes out, but readers who
really want to try to not have it spoiled for them may not wish to
read on. Don't say I didn't warn you...

------------------------------

Date: 09-Sep-1981
From: MIRIAM HARVEY AT BERGIL
Reply-to: "MIRIAM HARVEY AT BERGIL in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: The STAR TREK sequel

        A friend of my returned from the STAR TREK AMERICA Con in New
York with some news about the ST movie.  As you know, all the old
member of the Enterprise will be returning along with some new and
younger faces.  And as everyone has been pointing out there is a good
chance that Spock will be killed off.  This is to be Nimoy's LAST
appearance as Spock.
        What you might not know is that the actors at the con stated
that Lucas Production is to be doing the special effects; Nichols Myer
(director of Time After Time) is to direct it and the whole thing is
budgeted for $10 million.  This figure seems low since most sf films
usually go way over that figure.  Even so let's hope it is better than
the last one.  Of course they left lots of room for improvement.
Anyways production is suppose to begin sometime in October.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-SEP  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #72
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 SEP 1981 0722-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #72
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Reply-to:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 27 Sep 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
                  SF Books - The Magic May Return &
  Series (Warlock/GOR/Riddle Master/Harpist/More Than Human/Dune) &
                Unfinished books (Gravity's Rainbow),
      SF Movies - Star Wars fighters & Raiders Of The Lost Ark,
          SF TV - "NOVA: Computers,Spies and Private Lives",
                     SF Topics - Women in Science
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 September 1981 03:55-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Interconnected

I just picked up a new book that fits into the series discussions, any
leftover Niven interest, and probably several other continuing
discussions.  It's \The Magic May Return/, a collection of stories
edited by Larry Niven.

The book consists of 4 stories by others (Saberhagan, Ing, Barnes,
Anderson & Broxon) which take place in Niven's "WARLOCK" universe.  It
also reprints the best of Niven's stories from the series: "Not Long
Before the End".  It is trade size, $6.95 from ACE.  The book is
excessively illustrated by Alicia Austin.

I'm afraid the book isn't worth the seven bucks.  As far as I can
tell, the authors miss the interesting part of the Warlock stories,
namely the fact that (mild SPOILER?) magic is going away \for/ \a/
\reason/.  The stories are competent blah.

The illustrations are also competent blah.  If I weren't a compulsive
bookbuyer, I'd be even more strongly against these expensive books
packages for the video generation.

This book is probably good enough to be purchased by Niven fans.
Don't hurry, tho... it isn't the real thing, and shows it.

(Series haters note:  now we've got one so successful, the publisher
wants to share it with his stable...?)

--dick

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1981 19:09:30-PDT
From: research!alice!wolit at Berkeley
Reply-to: "research!alice!wolit in c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Y-wing fighters
The rebel force in Star Wars consisted of both X-wing and Y-wing
fighters.  I don't remember any TIE bombers in TESB, tho, just the
fighters.  Or are you referring to Vaders funny-looking fighter?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 12:06:23-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!woods in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Indy's precursors

Is Indiana Jones related to Tennessee Jed?
(You better head back to ...)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1981 1128-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: NOVA episode this weekend

    TV REVIEW
    By Michael Hill
    The Baltimore Evening Sun (Field News Service)
    The new series of "Nova" premieres this weekend as PBS makes the
wise move of putting this admirable science show on Sunday evenings.
    This means that if you've watched "60 Minutes" and aren't ready to
plunge into the silliness that marks most of the rest of commercial
television's Sunday night fare, you can turn over what is almost
unfailingly an interesting, informative and very accessible hour of
television.
    Plus, "Nova" should pick up some fans of "Masterpiece Theatre"
that follows it on the air. The season premiere of that series of
dramatic imports is still a week away.
    "Nova" opens with a timely hour called "Computers, Spies and
Private Lives" about a subject that's often mentioned in passing but
rarely examined in depth - the dangers that the growing banks of
computerized information pose for privacy in society.
    "Nova" manages to examine this issue with a fine blend of
gee-whiz-I-didn't-know-they-could-do-that stuff and some hard
information on what can happen to all those things that you've
voluntarily told computers over the years.
    Among the former is a card developed in France that looks like an
ordinary credit card but that actually holds a silicone chip which can
tell a doctor your blood type or a department store your credit
balance. That in essence allows you to carry your miniature computer
file around with you which can then transmit its information to
whatever computer you plug it into.
    Then there's the tele-computer, the bank of phone-calling machines
that try to sell you things, collect your bills, beg money for worthy
causes and whatever else people do over the phone. The interesting
part is that not only do you hear the recording of a voice, often of a
famous person, over your phone, but you actually have a conversation
with it, as it is programmed for several different responses depending
upon the answer you give.
    But the show also points out that the computers that so willingly
share your address with other computers in the form of mailing lists
purchased from various groups you belong to, also have the capability
of sharing information about your health, your credit status, your
bank account, your employment record, your tax status and so on.
Virtually everything about you that was once written down on a piece
of paper is now recorded on an electronic chip.
    Plus, since these computers do their talking via telephone-type
lines, they are subject to bugging in the same way that your phone is.
It's a more sophisticated operation, but it is still possible for
electronic eavesdroppers to listen in on computers.
    This version of "Nova" takes no great moral stands. It merely
presents the issues and the information, making clear that this is a
problem that is not going to disappear, even if there are those who
are trying to make it do so - a group of the French left who have
declared war on computers and enjoy blowing the things up.

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1981 23:43 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: Maria Mitchell

When I was out on Nantucket a while back I came across many things
named Mitchell (I forgot the first name).  One of them was an
observatory from the last century.  From what I gathered she was a
pretty good astronomer and also a patron of the field.

A lot of women went into astronomy until the fifties.  Wasn't Neptune
discovered by a brother-sister team?  It was a woman graduate student
who did the first work correlating Cepheid variable blink rates and
stellar temperature which allowed the first advances in discovering
our galaxy's structure.  There are number of husband-wife teams still
doing good work (the Bok's).


As far as dangerous books go I think the ONE responsible for the most
deaths is still the original Holy Bible.  (Even cheap ripoffs of it
such as the old Cecil B. DeMille Ten Commandments drove some guy to
kill a dozen women in Germany.)  As the Romans discovered, censorship
is not the answer.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1981 at 0229-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Maria Mitchell

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^MARIA MITCHELL, etc.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In answer to Steven Bellovin's query in issue #69:

Oh, yes indeedy there was an astromomer named Maria Mitchell active
around 1850 (and thereafter).

As a girl she had wondered why keen eyes and patience, so useful in
the needlework traditionally expected of young ladies "could not be
applied just as well to science.  She herself took up astronomy.  In
1847, from the roof of her house in Nantucket, Mass., she spied a new
comet, earning instant fame and a lasting reputation".  (LIFE Special
Report: Remarkable American Women-- 1776-1976.)

(Ardent Andre Norton fans can also find in this special issue of LIFE
magazine a picture of "Mammy" Pleasant who figures in her Gothic set
in 19th century San Francisco.  The ambiguity of the character
depicted in the book is evidently authentic reflection of the actual
person.)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1981 10:23:21-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: recent criticisms

   To say that all the tribulations of McKillip's "Riddlemaster"
trilogy could have been avoided with a short conversation is to
completely miss all the points of the book:
 1. Morgon is specifically told (in parallel to many other such
stories) that his troubles were necessary for the forming of his
character for his destiny (it makes good sense in context but I'm
trying not to draw a spoiler warning). Consider the discussion in
GLORY ROAD in which the hero is pointedly reminded that without the
previous hundred pages he would have been asking to be let out of the
funhouse instead of fighting the golems who are trying to kill him.
 2. The whole trilogy is founded on a conflict between lawfuls (and
some people who don't know what they're doing) on one side and
individual and massed chaotics on the other; this is not something
that can be talked out any more than Aragorn could have negotiated
with Sauron (a poor analogy, since I think McKillip wipes the floor
with Tolkien---she's a \\terrific// fantasist writing of human
concerns rather than of a rather primitive political conservatism that
appears in Tolkien).
   I admit to having been initially disappointed with HARPIST IN THE
WIND; the three books are so much of a unit that they can't be well
read over large gaps in time. But I reread the set recently and was
still quite impressed by it. I know McKillip is not appreciated by
many fans of traditional epic fantasy, from whom THE FORGOTTEN BEASTS
OF ELD frequently got a poor reception. But if you're willing to see
fantasies with entirely individual, human (as opposed to mass
[political]) motivations, she may be the finest fantasist ever.

   METROPOLIS as a \\leftist// tract???? I grant it makes terrible
reading, but that's a complete inversion of the point. (Did you know
that, while Lang fled to the U.S. in the 30's, von Harbou stayed and
did propaganda for Hitler?) Both book and movie specifically deplore
mass movements of workers---note how the first effect of the uprising
is the destruction of the workers' living area.

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1981 0122-PDT (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: John Lange vs. Michael Crichton

I have never heard anyone claim that Crichton actually wrote the first
three Gor books.  I have heard about a penname cross with "John
Norman", but I find it difficult to believe that Crichton could have
written any of Gor.  The basic concepts and style of the series was
practically set by the end of the first volume, and was certainly
firmly in place by the end of the third -- so I can't see how much
Crichton could have been responsible for.  Can someone clarify this
"fact"?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1981 11:15:44-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: comments...

   I don't recall Sturgeon's "A Touch of Strange" being related to the
set of gestalt novellas ("The Fabulous Idiot", "Baby Is Three", ?)
that were published as the novel MORE THAN HUMAN (actually, I think
"Baby Is Three" was the only part to be published separately), but
it's been too long since I read AToS. . . .

   The book DUNE was also originally a series in itself, having been
published in two separate serials, some time apart, in
ASTOUNDING/ANALOG (though I don't know whether that was intent or
simply Campbell grabbing it out of the typewriter before Herbert could
finish---certainly there is a substantial break in time and action
between the time Paul and Jessica meet the Fremen and time the
rebellion against the Harkonnens begins.

   "origins of Gor"---boy, did you buy the bridge on this one!
Crichton used the name "John Lange" on some of his early work for the
same reason that Harry Stubbs used "Hal Clement" (i.e., respectability
in an academic establishment), but there's no demonstrable connection
between Crichton and Gor. You gotta be careful about things like that;
if that were said in public enough quarters Crichton might sue for
slander.

   Gor discussion: I'm curious as to what academic/intellectual
premises Joe thinks he's challenging---and what he is willing to offer
as beliefs in their place. I suppose you have the sense not to be a
racist, in view of the absence of evidence offered for that viewpoint;
do you seriously believe that there is cause to believe in innate,
fundamental intellectual or emotional differences between men and
women (which is the basic premise of the Gor books)? Philosophically,
the books should be repulsive to the average conservative libertarian
(who would despise the assumption that whatever is, is right) though
they would appeal to the social Darwinism now popular among the new
right; personally, I find it incompatible with the full exercise of
one's brain (leaving aside the frequently prejudicial designation of
"intellectual"---remember how Eisenhower murdered Adlai Stevenson
simply by labeling him an egghead?) to make blanket assumptions about
a large class of people, especially when the classification is based
on something in which there is as little choice as there is with race
or gender.

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1981 0143-PDT (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: S&M and the 10 year olds

When I said that "all" 10 year olds seem to know about the basic
concepts of S&M, I was not remarking on a local observation, but on
the use of such concepts on both local and network television
programs, during daytime and early evening programming hours, in most
locales around the country.  Of course, such concepts are in very
diluted and foggy form on such shows... but they are there, and I
assume children see them (they certainly tend to see enough R rated
movies in most areas, and things are hardly so diluted in those!)  I
never claimed these kids had a "working" or "how-to" knowledge of this
stuff!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 18 Sep 1981 10:26-PDT
From: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow"

Many years ago, I shared an apartment with some mundanes while
attending college.  When they heard I read SF, they said:

        "We read Science Fiction: Ray Bradbury for example.  But, if
        you want --REAL-- Science Fiction, written by someone who can
        write and not that other children's garbage, then you should
        read "Gravity's Rainbow".

Sometime later, I bought this book, read 50 pages, put it down and
have never looked at it since.  Does anyone have anything good to say
about this book?

Michael

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-SEP  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #73
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 SEP 1981 0723-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #73
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Reply-to:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:
                    SF Books - Looking Backward &
      The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch & Gryphon in Glory &
         Lord Valentine's Castle picaresqueness & Amazons! &
             Series (GOR/Titan/Goro/Watchtower/Vampire) &
                 Unfinished books (Dhalgren/Triton),
             SF Topics - SF and Sexism & Women in Science
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 September 1981 21:49 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: Looking Backward

I always thought that the first leftist tract thinly disguised as a
novel was Looking Backward by Jeremy Bentham.  He was one of the
"utilitarian" philosphers but his view of Boston (in about 20 years?
was decidedly leftist).  I don't even think this was written this
century.  [ It was published in 1888 - Jim ]

If we use the term Left in the context defined at the Conference of
Vienna we could probably dredge up something even older.  By accepting
the usual etymology of left and right wing we can probably place an
earliest limit on the age of leftist tracts.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1981 1401-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: illusion vs. reality
To: lauren at UCLA-SECURITY

Dick rambles *extensively* about this in all his work.  One in
particular comes to mind: THE THREE STIGMATA OF PALMER ELDRITCH, which
I liked quite a bit but found the ending somewhat unsatisfactory.
Here, the plot describes two drugs, Can-D and Chew-Z, the former being
the accepted mind-altering drug, which lasts only a short while and
the illusion proceeds in real-time. The latter is a drug found by
Eldritch on his meanderings in alien civilizations which he attempts
to supplant Can-D with.  Its illusion can last forever and does not
depend on real-time (e.g. you can be made to suffer eons of boredom,
torture, etc., and actually only take a few seconds of reality).
Anybody who wants a mind-bender might like this book.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1981 1217-PDT
From: Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: Norton, Lord Valentine and Yarbro

Hi!  There's a new Norton dealing with High Halleck called "Gryphon in
Glory".  Picked it up at Worldcon and finally got to finish it last
night.  Thought it was pretty good, but am at least semi-addicted to
Norton anyway.

  The dictionary I have at work agrees with Hitchcock's definition of
picaresque, but I must say that the only books that seem to work in
this category do seem to deal with aimless people, at least in the
sense that they have adventures which are quite accidental, and not
part of some "grand scheme".  "La Vida de Lazarillo de Tormes" is the
first attributable work of the genre, and unless we badly misread the
old Spanish, it has no real goal.  I can't recall that Candide had
much of a life purpose either, unless you count survival.  Am not
sure, but would "Silverlock" fit somewhere between the two definitions
and be compatible in the category?  Silverlock and friend seem to be
accidental rogues, but rogues all the same, with no goal strong enough
to keep them from some quite meaningless (but interesting) sidetrips.

  Just finished Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's "Hotel Transylvania", and am
wondering if all of her work is that odd?  Maybe it just bothers me
that I found her sex scenes more erotic than my mid-west upbringing
tells me I should have?

                                         amyjo

------------------------------

Date: 09/26/81 08:28:27
From: FFM at MIT-MC
Subject: GOR and Amazons!

Once upon a time, in a place where I hacked there were 2 people who
thought highly of the GOR series. At their prodding I read 2 John
Norman Lange Books, "Slave Girl of GOR" and "Timeslave" and as far as
I can tell they are based on a moderately extended version of the old
"tooth and nail" theory of humanity. The basic thesis of this set of
beliefs which sort of goes as follows:

        (1) In primitive "read natural" conditions humanity tended to
            be rather nasty and people did others in at little notice.
            Supposedly people actually relied on their physical
            strength and viciousness to get a days food. All relations
            between humans were determined by who you could "kick the
            ass of" and vice versa.  Since men had the feature/
            misfeature of in general being physically stronger than
            women, women had no no recourse but to align themselves a
            man for protection unless they were very exceptional.


        (2) Human civility which we consider normal is nothing than
            the thin surface applied by civilization. The normal state
            of the human relations is that of violent physical
            conflict. However modern humans have really messed this
            one up by consing up weapons that allow one to wreak havoc
            on others (ir)regardless of physical strength. Supposedly
            the Gorean high-foos don't let this happen.


Norman extends these ideas with:

        (A) Women like to be humiliated or at least know their 'place'
            once they are put into it by a 'real man'.  Women really
            and designed to be passive sexual partners and play
            things.


There are several problems with the "tooth and nail" theory.  First
off as far as physical strength among primates, humans are pretty much
the weakest of primates for their size. Chimpanzees have what to us
would be incredible strength. The physically most impressive primates
are quite shy and pacifistic on the whole.  Even in dominance display
mode they don't resort to actual damage of their opponent. Furthermore
from our knowledge of primitive societies it appears there is little
evidence for putting any strong beliefs in the "tooth and nail"
theory. And there have been societies where women held a considerable
amount of power. The "tooth and nail" theory seems in my estimation to
be somewhat equivalent to the Geocentric theory of the Universe.

I don't know how he intends to substantiate that women like to be
dominated. It doesn't seem to be supportable on any grounds.  There
have been other depressing theories of sex however, as far as I can
tell; Elaine Morgan in "The descent of women" rather strongly implies
that all human sex started as rape and that this is genetically
present in men; i.e. men have a genetic predilection to rape women.

As far as 13 year old kids reading GOR; I find it rather sad however
nothing nowhere near fatal and certainly no reason of immediately
snarfing the books away from him.  A continual diet of such things
might be rather damaging, however most people at age 13 have a
considerable amount of good sense that we don't give them credit for.
A copy of "Left hand of Darkness" might also be a reasonable gift.

By the way most "romance novels" have concepts in them I find only
slightly less objectionable and no one has tried to stop people from
reading these rather ridiculous things.  I am convinced that both John
Norman and Valarie Sherwood are artificially intelligent. Perhaps
there are large combo SNOBOL/LISP programs sitting around somewhere
grinding out these things.

To my surprise I found the "Amazons!" collection by Salmonson nowhere
near horrible over-all and it had several short stories that were very
good. Notably "Bones for Dulath" and another whose name escapes me
were quite good. They actually had female and male characters who were
reasonable and human. And furthermore they actually had reasonable
relationships and they seemed like real human beings just slightly
different from people you know or FEEL you could know. In one case the
leading characters were lovers and the other they had formed a real
alliance by story's end. Also having a female character go forth to
defeat an inhuman foe to save her lover was wonderfully well done.
This seemed to be more hopeful than Joanna Russ who seems to see no
hope of winning and egalitarian relationships between women and men.
It had its share of badly done things but when you attempt to showcase
relatively unknown writers and you have a grouping of writers by
special interest group this is bound to happen.

Time to turn the flame off for awhile...

Have fun
Love and Peace,
Sends Steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 September 1981 2357-edt
From: Polucci at MIT-Multics
Subject: SF and sexism

It's an unfortunate fact that most literature is sexist - after all,
it was written by men.  SF seems to pretty much have recapitulated the
development of mainstream stuff in gradually opening the door for non-
sexist and anti-sexist writing; the days of pulp and the Golden Age
gradually gave way to the "new wave" back in the Fifties, and the
advent of non-sexist writers.  Unfortunately, SF still seems to be
dominated by sexism; while authors like Russ and Tiptree are very
effective in their anti-sexist writing, they're still a minority.
This may be because a lot of SFers are "techy" (they may have no great
technical training, but they do have an affinity for science or
technology); our culture instills in women a dislike of technology
(it's not feminine), or a mistrust in their capabilities to implement
science's methodology (men are rational, women are intuitive).  As was
pointed out to me by a woman friend, this is in fact sadly ironic:
science requires far more intuitive formulation than cookbook
approach.

Lately I've noticed an increase in the proportion of women writers
entering the field, especially fantasy; hopefully this presages a
departure from the ubiquity of hulking, monosyllabic barbarians
ripping the clothes from voluptuous maidens squealing in a mixture of
fear and ecstasy.  (I sometimes wonder why Tiptree felt it was
necessary to ascribe the gynocide in "The Screwfly Solution" to an
extraterrestrial agent.)

Proselytizing Tom Polucci

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1981 12:01:59-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: John Varley

This is the first time I've heard anyone call Varley's works sexist.
In fact, it's always been my opinion that he was one of the few
authors (Vonda McIntrye is another who comes to mind) who succeeds in
ignoring irrelevant sexual distinctions.  (In one of his series, of
course, there really is no distinction, since the characters change
sex at will.)  To be sure, in "Titan" and "Wizard" several characters
are definitely male or female, but they don't show the stereotypical
behavior patterns "appropriate" to their sex.  I've even heard
comments to the effect that Cirocco seems to be male in "Wizard",
though I'd say that's more a comment on our preconceptions.

There is, of course, the matter of Robin, who is a descendant of a
lesbian separatist group that set up their own Lagrangian colony.  Her
primary purpose seems to be to allow Varley to preach "let's not go
overboard now; matters are never one-sided; extremism in ANY cause
ain't cool."  But Varley handles it skillfully enough that it doesn't
get in the way of the book.

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1981 1101-edt
From: AHunter.DISDEV at MIT-Multics
Subject: Various Random Things

Re:  Maria (pronounced Mariah) Mitchell query from Steven M. Bellovin

Maria Mitchell was born on Nantucket in the early nineteenth century,
where there is an observatory memorializing her.  Her father was a
setter of chronometers, and she learned both astronomy and mathematics
from him.  She wrote that "a mathematical formula is a hymn to the
universe".  She became the first great American astronomer of
international renown.  Matthew Vassar named her as the first Professor
hired in 1863 as he founded Vassar College.  She won the King of
Denmark's Medal for discovering a comet.  Her original observatory and
l6" reflecting telescope are still extant at Vassar.  (Reference:
Katie Albers, daughter of Henry Albers, Maria Mitchell Professor of
Astronomy, Vassar College.)

Re:  John Varley, Joanna Russ

John Varley seems to me to be extremely sensitive to feminism.  At
times it's hard to believe he's actually male and not pulling a
Tiptree.  And I have been regarded as a man-hating radical feminist.
I liked Russ' The Female Man.  In the context of feminist writing it
makes plenty of sense.

Re:  Series

How about Octavia Butler's Goro series?  and Elizabeth Lynn's
Watchtower Trilogy?  I think Butler's series starts great and gets
better.  The second book of the Watchtower series seems to me by far
the best (The Dancers of Arun (2nd Book), The Northern Girl (3rd
Book), and then The Watchtower (lst book), would be my ranking, even
though I find the incest in Dancers troubling (the kid is supposed to
be 17 or so, but he "feels" more like 13 or 14).) I haven't been able
to read all of Yarbro's Vampire Series yet, but what I've read has not
been in order and has seemed enthralling.

 Hunter

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1981 2214-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Dhalgren, Triton, etc.

Don't let 'em mislead y'all out there about Dhalgren: if you like
Delany's stuff, you'll probably like Dhalgren.  ...although you may
not figure out what it's about...that's how I came away from the book
when I first read it; I enjoyed it, but kept waiting for everything to
be explained.  I wish I had read Triton first, and at least known
where the hell Bellona was supposed to be.  The mess in Dhalgren may
be a part of the "small" war mentioned in Triton.

Triton, I must confess, I didn't enjoy as much as the rest of Delany's
works I've read - sort of a downer in mood, I guess, although I still
enjoyed parts of it.  Mainly, I guess, I like the bits of odd culture
he throws in...especially inventions like the "singers of the city" in
"Time as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones".

...so take a couple of weeks and at least *try* Dhalgren...

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-SEP  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #74
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 SEP 1981 0712-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #74
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Sep 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No Missing Digest,
   SF Books - No-Frills & Oath of Fealty & King David's Spaceship &
      Timescape & In the Ocean of Night & Series (Riverworld) &
            Unfinished books (Algorithm/Childern of Dune/
                     Gravity's Rainbow/Dhalgren),
      SF Movies - Raiders of the Lost Ark & Sword and Sorcery &
                         Star Wars fighters,
       SF Topics - SF and Sexism,  Spoiler - The Humanoid Touch
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3:35am  Wednesday, 30 September 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: No Missing Digest

As some of you may have noticed, we had transmission difficulties that
queued up several digests over the weekend until the beginning of this
week.  Rather than transmit both a Tuesday and a Wednesday digest
today, only a Wednesday digest is being sent.  Thus this digest, issue
74, follows directly after Monday's issue, the 73rd - no gaps exists.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1981 1629-PDTDate: 28 September 1981 23:00-EDT
From: Phillip C. Reed <PCR at MIT-MC>
Re: Generic Science Fiction

A notice in the Oct. SF Chronicle: Jove is releasing a "No-Frills"
book.  It has a black and white typeset cover that says "Science
Fiction" in big letters, and below that, it says:

                        Complete with everything:

                             Aliens, Galaxies,
                          Space Cadets, Robots,
                        Time Travel, One Plucky Girl

Does anybody know if this is for real?
                                                ...phil

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1981 (Monday) 1340-EST
From: DYER at  NBS-10
Subject: new Niven, Pournelle books

        OATH OF FEALTY by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle is out in
Timescape hardback.  (I guess there was an earlier, limited edition,
though...)

        JEP's KING DAVID'S SPACESHIP is out in Timescape paperback, to
the tune of $2.95.

-Landon-

------------------------------

Date: 02-Sep-1981
From: MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Another good book by Gregory Benford

Because of a rave review in SFL a few months back, I read Gregory
Benford's Timescape.  It was very good and I am grateful for the
recommendation.

Benford has an earlier book -- haven't seen it in paperback -- which
was in my local public library:  In the Ocean of Night.  "Quantum
Science Fiction; The Dial Press/James Wade.  New York" Copyright 1972,
1973, 1974, 1977.

From the dust jacket:  "... The adventures and discoveries in this
novel are in the finest traditions of modern science fiction, but the
story is enriched by the equally gripping development of Nigel
[central character] as a man who finds he must seek something others
cannot conceive of -- whose true home is in the limitless ocean of
night between the stars."

In the Ocean of Night is worth looking for.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 2223-EDT
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: RotLA music

Very often pieces of the theme sounded like bits of "Leia's Theme"
from SW1.  But, can't a composer snarf some of his own themes??

_H*

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1981 09:56 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Sword & Sorcery Movies

Just got back from a writer's conference (non-SF) where the story
editor for Columbia pictures said that Sword and Sorcery is the next
big fad -- they have one in production called "Krull."

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1981 1450-EDT
From: S. W. Galley <SWG at MIT-XX>
Subject: Y-wing fighters (SFLD 4:70)

I do remember seeing Y-wing fighters in the SW4 movie: they flew in
formation with X-wings en route from the rebel base to the Death Star,
and they may have appeared in battle scenes as well.  I'm sure they
are included in at least one spin-off book, perhaps "Star Wars
Sketchbook".

------------------------------

Date: 28 September 1981 22:54-EDT
From: Phillip C. Reed <PCR at MIT-MC>
Re: Star Wars Y-type fighters

Sure, I remember them. They didn't have the split wing, they had much
larger engines, and only two engines each. (In the book, they were
said to carry a crew of two.)

Didn't they have the code designation "Gold"? (Luke's squadron was the
"Red" squadron.)
                                       ...phil

------------------------------

Date: 28 September 1981 13:48-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Y-Wing Fighters

  In reply to JCP's message about Y-Wing Fighters, I must point out
that if you watched the battle scene between the rebel forces and
Death Star, there were many Y-Wing Fighters, but they had
predominently focused on the X-Wings. I remember one scene when a
Y-Wing had one engine blown off, and it spiraled to a spectacular
explosion on the surface of Death Star.

------------------------------

Date: 29 September 1981 1023-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30)
Subject:  SW Y-wing fighters

Y-wing fighters were indeed in Star Wars IV.  They got blown to
smithereens attacking the Death Star.  Actually, the term "Y-wing" is
not quite appropriate.  They were shaped like squared-off Y's, but
didn't have wings.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1981 11:23 PDT
From: STOGRYN.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Tie Bombers in TESB
Tie bombers appearing in The Empire Strikes Back?

I have seen the movie ump-teen million times and Tie Bombers were
definitely used to bomb the astroid on/in which the Millenium Falcon
had taken refuge.

May the Force. . . well, you know the rest.
Stephen D.

------------------------------

Date: 29 September 1981 22:15-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: TIE Bombers

  There were indeed TIE bombers in TESB. They were shown briefly
bombing asteroids while Solo and Co. were hiding within the "worm".

--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 28 September 1981  11:57-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Chips in credit cards

Does anyone know why there is a chip in the card instead of a magnetic
strip with the DATA written on it?

                                    Ken

[ This message is in reference to the discussions on the recent NOVA
  episode "Computers,Spies and Private Lives." - Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 1981 0703-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: Recapitulation

Someone in a digest of a few days ago asked if anyone could cite books
in which the author went over/summarized the events of earlier books.
For this dubious distinction, I nominate Farmer's entire Riverworld
series (after the first book), especially "The Magic Labyrinth".
Since I read these books as I ran across them over the past few years,
and just read "Labyrinth" a week ago, I cannot tell for sure anymore
which of them I have read!  The later books recapitulate the events of
the previous ones so much that I have completely lost track if I
really read a particular scene when it first happened, or just one of
the two or three repeats/flashbacks of it!

"Labyrinth" laboriously recapitulates the entire preceeding series
(plus every other page seems to have been lifted directly from an
"Encyclopedia of Biography", giving the Earth-life history of any
historical character Farmer decided to drag in).  It's a rather sad
fate for the clever concept of the environment.
Maybe most SF writers should be used for nothing but creating
environments.  Then these concepts would be turned over to really
skilled writers for creating plot and characterization.  (Anyone know
any "really-skilled" writers?  I keep thinking of dead 18th and 19th
century ones...  My contemporary (non-SF) favorites write non-fiction
mostly ([John McPhee, for example].  Hans Helmut Kirst, maybe, could
do wonders with the Riverworld or Well World, if it enthused him
enough...)

Hmmm....  This could lead to a new "Alternate Universes" series of SFL
submissions (duck, moderator!): Herman Melville's "Riverworld",
Charles Dickens' "Dune", etc.

Will

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1981 1037-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <JMA at SU-AI>
Subject: Books I couldn't finish

"Algorithm" by I can't remember.  I started to read this book because
of its nifty title, and found that you shouldn't judge a book by its
cover...It is about an attempted assaination and I never found out if
they did it, and furthermore, since the writing was so bad, I could
care less.

I couldn't finish the third Dune book, but I understand this is a
common failing.

                                                Judy.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1981 1029-PDT
From: Stevan Milunovic <Milunovic at SRI-KL>
Subject: Gravity's Rainbow

In response to Mike@rand's query re Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow...

I read the book a few years ago and thought it was fantastic. The book
was very controversial when it was published (1971?). The book was
awarded a Pullitzer, which was later withdrawn after a great deal of
dissention among the literary community. Many argued that the book was
just an overwritten stream of consciousness. Others, like myself, felt
that the style was somewhat inaccessible but intriguing.

The plot deals with an American in London during the war whose job
requires that he predict where the next German V2 bomb will fall.
Interwoven are plots dealing with a corporate shadow government which
is running the war, an intelligent octupus, a suicidal tribe of blacks
from Africa determined to destroy Germany in revenge, and many others.
The book takes what seems forever to read because of the density and
length (800 or so pages in paperback) and the need to continually
refer back to identify characters whose identities are often not clear
in a given context.
Pynchon was/is an electrical engineer and uses this background to
describe physical and mental phenomena.

Highly recommended if you have a lot of time to read and reflect.

Steve...

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1981 0835-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <ADMIN.MDP at SU-SCORE>
To: the tune of "Reuben, Reuben"
Subject: A Letter to Samuel R. Delany

        DHALGREN was too long and boring,
        But to read it I thought I should.
        I finished it in only six months.
        Thanks very much.

                            Signed,
                            Evelyn Wood


(For those out there who don't recognize the name, it's most widely
known in connection with the Evelyn Wood School of Reading Dynamics.)

------------------------------

From: APPLE@MIT-MC
Date: 09/30/81 03:15:08
Subject: SF and sexism


    "It's an unfortunate fact that most literature is sexist - after
    all, it was written by men." - Polucci at MIT-Multics.


     I disagree with both parts of this statement: first, that most
literature is sexist; and second, the implicit assumption that
anything written by men is probably sexist.

     First of all, I imagine that Polucci defines sexism in a piece of
writing as something that shows the conduct of men or women in a
traditional manner.  Now with this definition of sexism, I imagine
that he's right in saying that most literature is sexist.  However, he
seems to apply the label of "sexist" pejoratively.  In doing this he
denies what every human being who lives in our society knows: that
women and men ARE different.  Saying so -- in literature or anywhere
else -- is just a reflection of reality.  That's the way things are:
women simply behave differently, in general, than do men.  Pretending
that it isn't so is ignoring this reality.  I suggest that sexism be
defined similarly to racism.  Racism does not include simply pointing
out differences in the behavior of races (as long as they are real,
not imagined, differences); everyone can see that there ARE such
differences.  Therefore sexism should not include pointing out
differences in the behavior of men and women.  The fact is that most
men are "masculine" and most women are "feminine."  Stating this is
not sexist; it's just the truth.

     Now, dealing with the assumption that most literature written by
men is sexist, if we accept the first definition of sexism, I'm sure
he's right.  This arises out of the simple fact that most writers,
like most people, share similar views about the behavior and roles of
men and women in society.  What they write reflects those views.
Instead, if we accept the full pejorative definition of sexism, we
find that very little literature is sexist, just as very little
literature is racist.  Literature, by and large, reflects people's
observations of the way society is at the time of the writing.
Science fiction, as a literary genre, is no different in this respect.

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 09/30/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses in
detail the novel The Humanoid Touch, by Jack Williamson.  Readers
who have not read this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 09-Sep-1981
From: PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO
Reply-to: "PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: RE: Review of "The Humanoid Touch" in SFL V4 #54

(SPOILER WARNING!!!)

I must disagree with Sapsford's panning of THT.  The ending of the
book is indeed surprising, disorienting and unsettling, but, in my
opinion, no more so than the ending of "The Humanoids."  In both
cases, the protagonist concludes that the Humanoids were right after
all--the vast majority of mankind needs to be protected against
themselves.  Since I most emphatically do NOT agree with this
conclusion, I was disturbed by the endings of both books.  I would
much rather have seen the Humanoids conquered, just as I would have
preferred a human triumph in "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream."
Nonetheless, I consider all three to be good stories.  If you don't
like tales with unsettling endings, then by all means stay away from
Williamson's "Humanoids" stories and pretty near everything from
Harlan Ellison.

I also can't help wondering if the Humanoids were telling the truth at
the end of THT when they said that the protagonist and his buddies
would never need their service.  The Humanoids should have had no
trouble controlling their minds, since a platinomagnetic mind control
device of immense power was built on Wing IV in "The Humanoids."
Remember that platinomagnetic effects are distance invariant.  The
only reason I can think of to explain why they did not use the mind
control device is that the Humanoid robots cannot exist on the planet
without corroding, in which case they would not be able to offer the
controlled humans their service.  I think the statement that they did
not need Humanoid service was simply a stall until the Humanoids find
a way to survive on that planet.  Perhaps we'll get another sequel out
of all this.

--Paul

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #75
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 OCT 1981 0637-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #75
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:
 SF Books - Benford books & Picaresque novels & Series (GOR/Vampire),
                 SF Music - Raiders of the Lost Ark,
    SF Topics - Chips on a Card & Women in Science & SF and Sexism
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1981 15:01:53-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Gregory Benford

I have 3 paperbacks by Benford besides "Timescape."  They are:

        Jupiter Effect, Berkeley Science Fiction, 1980, $2.25
                (basically, this is a "juvenile")
        The Stars in Shroud, Berkeley Science Fiction, 1979, $1.95
        In the Ocean of Night, Dell, 1978, $1.95

The dates given are for the editions I have; several carry additional
earlier copyright dates.

------------------------------

Date: 10/01/81 00:59:57
From: ITTAI@MIT-MC
Subject: RotLA music

In response to the questions regarding RotLA music: it is very likely
that the music is familiar.  John Williams is a serious musician who's
big hit-Star Wars-was an aggregation of prior maestro's music with
annotations, embelishments and bridges written by him.  Interestingly,
the musical establishment welcomed the fresh view of old melodies (In
fact, he was appointed to the position of musical director of the
Boston Pops-presumably because of the SW music).  In any case, I'm not
familiar enough with the RotLA music, but knowing the composer's style
the melodies are no-doubt older than he.  (nb. this is NOT plagiarism;
it is common musical practice to improve on anothers
melodies/themes/techniques).

                                              -Ittai


------------------------------

Date: 30 September 1981 22:48 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: chips in credit cards

Business Week ran an article on this a few months ago.  A lot of firms
are looking into it but I think one of the biggies was in France.
What I read was that the card could contain encrypted information
about you including a password or a puzzle.  It could also hold
balances, recent purchases and so on.  I don't think the card had any
processor power but it was mainly supposed to be a static RAM though
there was talk of hairier things.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1981 15:01:28-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Maria Mitchell

My thanx to all those who responded to my query.  For what it's worth,
the description of her in Schenk's books agrees in every particular
with the facts cited here.  Not surprising, given her association with
Nantucket.....

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1981 10:41:33-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: rogues and Yarbro

   Accidental adventures can indeed happen in picaresque novels, but
they aren't the foundation; for instance, I would call Vance's "Demon
Princes" novels picaresque, and their protagonist (somehow Vance's
writing is too unstirring for me to call his lead a hero) has a
definite purpose. Morressy's books and the Conan books are another
strain of this, the rogue who rises; another example with better
writing is de Camp's GOBLIN TOWER (perhaps also THE FALLIBLE FIEND) in
which the adventures are indeed aimless. The term is old enough that
it has diffused into a vagueness making precise classification in it
mostly of interest to people who \have/ to classify things (I admit to
frequently falling into this category, but I don't have enough info
here to be more precise).
   Yarbro has written two other books about Count Ragoczy, THE PALACE
(?) set in Savonarolan Florence, and BLOOD GAMES, set in Rome after
Nero; another one is reportedly in progress. Both contain perverse
villains (not just sexually; Savonarola is portrayed according to the
worst historical information/gossip about him). I would argue that,
particularly for women, the idea of a male who can't just take his own
pleasure from sex but must depend for nourishment on the erotic
pleasure of women would be a powerful stimulant.  The only other
Yarbro I've read is THE FOURTH HORSEMAN (?)---that's not strange, but
it's not much good either.

------------------------------

Date: 30 September 1981 22:48 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: sexism in literature
By some people's reasoning Mein Kamph was not anti-semetic it just
reflected the facts that Jews and gentiles are different.

Gone With the Wind is a racist novel and if you argue that the South
was pretty racist back then that doesn't change the that fact.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 30 Sep 1981 08:50-PDT
Subject: Sexism in SF
From: jim at RAND-UNIX

I object to SMB's passing mention of Vonda McIntyre as one "who
succeeds in ignoring irrelevant sexual distinctions." My feeling after
reading <Dreamsnake> is that every competent good character was female
and every evil or weak character was male.  To me this smacks of
replacing male chauvinism (which I grant is epidemic in almost all
literature, and especially in SF) with female chauvinism, which is
equally pernicious.  What's wrong with equality??

        Jim Gillogly

------------------------------

Date: 30 September 1981 15:59 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Sexism in SF


I'm afraid I must disagree with APPLE@MIT-MCs understanding of sexism.
Sexism is not simply noticing that male and female humans may tend to
have gender-specific behavior, it is the enforcing of said patterns,
and the ideology behind that enforcement.  Almost invariably, such
patterns work to the disadvantage of the female.  (There are also
harmful effects on the male, although to a lesser degree.)  This puts
it quite mildly.  (See the middle section of Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology
for a brief history of gynocyde.)

I suppose it is true that, within a single culture, you may find
gender specific behaviors.  But there is no good reason to assume that
these arise from inherent biological factors in the human, since every
human is inculcated with sex-bias.  No controlled experiments have
been done.  What is more, even if there were some hardware basis for
sexism, there would be no reason to not try to supercede these
reasons.

(Naturally I don't deny the gross facts of reproduction, and attendent
structural differences.  I just doubt these have a lot to do with the
\important/ items - human mind.)

Anti-Sexism is particularly important in SF because we are not
constrained to history thus far - we can posit alternate cultures (and
biologies, if need be).  On the other hand, much of SF suffers by
projecting the absolute worst of the present into the future, without
even questioning it.  Men are rational fighters, women are cooing
beauties.  This serves to maintain the present order.
If this sounds political, it is.  For me, writers like Tiptree and
Russ, and Sturgeon are vital - they show that we can at least imagine
a world where this horror has ended.

jim davis.

P.S. Would other correspondents be good enough to include Human names,
as opposed to CRAY, IBM3360, or APPLE?

------------------------------

~R~&)JtNDate: 30 Sep 1981 11:44:56-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: ["sexism"]

   This is probably going to arouse another storm, but I'd like to put
in my two cents worth.
   You reason carefully and far more politely than some of the flamers
on this and allied digests, but you begin with something I will
classify as a useless generalization: "women simply behave
differently, in general, than do men".
   To start things off with a bang, need I remind you that this is the
observation that is the foundation of the recently- (and deservedly-)
vilified Gor books.
   The problem is perspective: who observes, defines, and
statistically mungs behavior to come up with such a statement?
Considering the opinions about female behavior that even a cursory
scan of literature will reveal (take, for example: the plays of Shaw;
J. M. Barrie's "The Twelve-Pound Look", any Heinlein book (pick one
each old and new for a spread) and "Consider Her Ways" and TROUBLE
WITH LYCHEN by John Wyndham), I contend that most such statistical
munging will produce results with such spread and overlap that no
significant observations can be made. And note that all of these
represent a male perspective of the differences; to maintain that this
has validity by itself is to claim that a wholly Christian view of
Judaism or a wholly white view of blacks is the entire truth.
Consider, for contrast, the views of "James Tiptree", especially as
shown in "The Women Men Don't See".
   The statement "everyone can see that there ARE such differences" is
particularly suspect. Need I remind you of things past which
"everybody" knew but which turned out to be nonsense (and often
pernicious nonsense at that)?  To claim that an "accident of birth"
makes such a dominant difference in character is to ignore evidence
concerning the major role of nurture (vs.  nature) from the Jesuits
onwards.
   You grasp and then lose point with your parenthetical "so long as
they are real, not imagined, differences". Consider again the "real
differences" accepted in the past (starting with, for instance,
Lincoln's casual remark about the natural inferiority of blacks); is
our modern era so free of blindness? Say rather, in view of internal
reactions to the insane foreign policies of many nations today, that
we now have, in our global village, even more to be blind about.
   Applying these considerations more closely to literature, you again
show Pope's bias (that whatever is, is right): "Literature, by and
large, reflects people's observations of the way society is at the
time of the writing." Whose observations? The writer's mostly---how
many times have you heard the cliche of the college writing class that
the would-be or budding author must observe life? The audience's
additionally---\as/ \the/ \author/ \perceives/ \those/ \observations/!
(If you're willing to dig into this, I suggest you ask hjjh for some
of her material about literature written specifically for certain
classes of women.)
   And how biased those observations are! "Noise Level", in SPECTRUM
V, makes this point especially cogently, showing how much we depend on
perception sets and fitting pieces into known patterns, rather than
determining the characteristics of a thing in itself. This is terrible
pedagogy (One of Heinlein's few good points about education appears in
BEYOND THIS HORIZON in an offhand comment that new things were never
defined for a growing child in terms of things already present if the
thing itself could be shown) and bad practice for an adult.
Psychologists will prate about how a frog or a cat or a duckling
doesn't really "see" objects but only simple patterns that its brain
can grasp, while not mentioning that such limitations can apply to us.
The same question of selective perception is argued at greater length
in Brunner's THE STONE THAT NEVER CAME DOWN.
   I would say that many men are in fact afflicted with this blind
bias with respect to women, not so much out of malice as out of their
upbrought ignorance. Note that this is again a point for nurture over
nature; any anthropologist can offer you examples of stable cultures
in which the roles and behaviors of women and men is anything you say
it isn't or can't be.
   This selective sight is hardly confined to mundanes. Norman
Spinrad's recent review of the Hugo nominees makes wounding criticisms
of THE SNOW QUEEN, ignoring the fact that some of the most concrete of
those objections were made, with rather more validity because of the
smaller temporal gap, about his BUG JACK BARON over a decade ago. His
most recent work, SONGS FROM THE STARS, considers such blindness and
in dismissing it unconsciously illustrates it.
   You say, "Literature, by and large, reflects people's observations
of the way society is at the time of the writing. Science fiction, as
a literary genre, is no different in this respect. I contend that SF
is supposed to represent a coherent projection of some future,
possibly echoing but never simply mirroring (save in the inferior sort
of SF, devoid of imagination) society's past. Obviously this need not
be a linear development; revolting as it is, Pournelle's medievalesque
CoDominium represents an organized set of perceptions about the
future. The primitive sexism of 50's SF is marginally excusable, from
ignorance (try rereading the Foundation trilogy for some obnoxious
examples), but for a present-day SF writer to ignore current
developments, or even to assume that those developments will somehow
be magically reversed without upheaval (Bester seizes this point
precisely in the prologue to TIGER, TIGER (aka THE STARS MY
DESTINATION)) is to fail in a fundamental requirement for such
writers---to create a comprehensible (even "reasonable", though that
is subject to the same prejudicial judgments) background out of the
unknowable.

------------------------------

Date: 1 October 1981 00:14 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Reply to Chip Hitchcock on GOR series
<Flame on, Afterburners on>

Now just a minute here...

Surely one can believe in "innate fundamental intellectual or
emotional differences between men and women" without believing that
the Gor books are an accurate reflection of that difference.

Just to get the labels right, seems to me that there is considerable
evidence pointing to that kind of differences. But what Gor describes
surely isn't it. I find the Gor series mostly boring and mildly
repulsive. I guess I would rather someone read about that sort of
thing than go out and try it.

I should also point out, that while I do think that there are
differences between men and women, I don't think that one is "better"
than the other. While there are differences on the average, the
differences between individuals greatly exceed the differences between
the averages, so you had better look at individuals.

<Afterburner off, Flame off>

                        Paul

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #76
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 OCT 1981 0637-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #76
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:
         SF Books - No-Frills & Series (Vampire/GOR/Retief) &
                Unfinished books (Gravity's Rainbow),
    SF Movies - Daleks Invade Earth 2150 A.D & Star Wars fighters,
            SF TV - The Land of the Giants & Time Tunnel,
              SF Topics - SF and Sexism & Right and Left
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1981 1117-PDT
From: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3
Reply-to: "Amy Newell in care of" <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: Generic Books and Yarbro's Vampire series

Yes, there is to be an entire set of "no-frills" or "plain-label"
books.  The only author I've heard to date is Vic Milan, who is
supposed to do the western.  Supposedly, these books will have white
covers with black lettering (sound familiar?), and will contain all
the usual elements found in a particular genre.  Titles will include
such stirring examples as "Western", "Science Fiction", "Romance",
etc..  Wonder if there'll be a "Pornography"?

  Just started "Blood Games" which is, as far as I know, the last of
Yarbro's vampire series.  Her history is good.  By that I mean that
even if it isn't true it reads as though it should be, and her
characters aren't bad.  My biggest quibble is that I want to know how
Ragoczy provides for those of his servants who seem to be vampires.
Several are mentioned as having lived for centuries, but no mention is
made of obtaining supplies of native soil for them, or of from whom or
how they are nourished.  I'm also finding it distracting to be
reminded at every turn of Ragoczy's small hands and feet.  That may be
a minor quibble, but seems the type of thing that needs to be
mentioned only two or three times a book, not in virtualy every
chapter.

                                             amyjo.

------------------------------

Date: 1 October 1981 18:47-EDT
From: Thomas L. Davenport <TLD at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Yet more Dr. Who in Boston

TV Guide claims that Boston's channel 7 is going to broadcast a movie
entitled ``Daleks Invade Earth 2150 A.D.'' at 0000 on October 4th.
They say: ``(English; 1966) A field day for the special-effects
department:  time machines, flying saucers and robots from outer
space.  Dr. Who:  Peter Cushing. Wyler: Andrew Keir.''
Has anyone ever heard of (or seen) this?  Is it worth watching?

-Tom-

------------------------------

Date:  1 Oct 1981 0405-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Bay Area SF TV


On channel 36 every Saturday in the SF Bay Area "The Land of the
Giants" (4:00pm) and "Time Tunnel" (5:00pm) provide a good
doubleheader of old SF TV.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1981 12:44:08-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: existence of Y-wings

   Sorry; they appear in considerable numbers in the final battle
scene of STAR WARS (though I don't recall seeing them at all in THE
EMPIRE STRIKES BACK). The first run at the exhaust port is made by
Y-wings (there are even some graphics of the TIE fighter's gunsight
closing in on the Y-wing) and one of the first rebel fighters to go
down in the fighting immediately around the Death Star is a Y-wing.

   The problem in identifying them is that the reference plane is
different; the X of an X-wing is visible from ahead or behind after
the sponsons are locked in attack position (quoting from the command
from one of the squadron leaders as they approach the Death Star); the
Y of a Y-wing is apparent from above or below. In addition the Y is
squared-off; the top view is

            ||     ||                   \      /
            ||     ||                    \    /
            ||     ||                     \  /
            ---------                      \/
 roughly    ---------   rather than        ||
                |                          ||
                |                          ||
                |                          ||

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1981 1043-EDT
From: Ginder at CMU-20C
Subject: Emperor & Yoda

Did anyone get the idea that the Emperor in TESB is well-versed in
using the force?  Ie., that the Emperor is to Yoda as Darth Vader is
to Obi-Wan.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1981 12:18:08-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: your response

re Gor: I warned you I was starting off with a bang. But you miss an
admittedly obscure point: there is no such thing as an innocuous
doctrine of inequality.

Secondly, there seems to be a contradiction between the first and last
parts of your msg:

        Surely one can believe in "innate fundamental intellectual or
        emotional differences between men and women"

        While there are differences on the average, the differences
        between individuals greatly exceed the differences between
        the averages, so you had better look at individuals.

Perhaps not precisely a contradiction, but certainly a lack of
harmony; the point is that there is no ground either for believing in
such innate differences (as opposed to those imposed by nurture) or
for acting generally on the basis of differences that seem to be
ingrained in specific individuals.
  The second excerpt is precisely the point of several paragraphs in
my message. Let's make a definition of x-ism (x E {race, sex, age, . .
.}) as consisting not only of probably false beliefs about the members
of a class defined by x but also as acting toward individual members
of that class as if they were uniform representatives of that class
\in/ \matters/ \which/ \have/ \nothing/ \to/ \do/ \with/ \the/
\clearly-defined/ \x/. This corresponds to current usage (although the
term generally isn't defined this precisely); it's also a point that I
didn't emphasize in my essay.
   As I have mentioned previously in this digest, there is strong
local-experimental and anthropological evidence that statistically
observable male-female differences are in fact the result of nurture
rather than nature. Granted, in many cases these nurtured differences
were implanted so early that the individuals cannot recall any such
molding (which can take place from the first day of life---people will
react differently to a brand-new infant depending on which sex \they/
\are/ \told/ it is).  This being the case (and now being discovered to
be the case) it is incumbent on present-day SF writers to consider
worlds in which this frequently malign molding does not take place.

------------------------------

Date:      1 Oct 81 22:54:13-EDT (Thu)
From:      J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70@BRL>
Subject:   GOR/Sexism

On the subject of GOR, it would be better to draw one's interpretation
of Norman's message in GOR from the sequences where he contrasts the
society of GOR with that of Earth, relative to sexism, etc.

In these sequences, the sexist tone is brought down to a more
reasonable level, and the basic point is made:
        1) Earth (most likely American/European) society suppresses
                sex differences to an excessive degree.
        2) This has the effect of increasing mental tension, with
                corresponding symtoms, (societal instability, high
                divorce rates, mental illness, etc.)

The symptoms mentioned in 2) are definately observed in Western
societies, and generally to a greater degree in societies where sex
roles are less distinguishable, and these symtoms almost uniformily
increase across all societies as sex roles become less apparent.

This point can also be made about non-western societies, as examples,
several Asian countries have experienced these symtoms as of late,
where previously, such things were largely unheard of.  (Japan, India,
China)

        If one ignore the more graphic parts of the GOR books, I
believe a case could be made that Norman is attempting to point this
out, and that this confusing/obscuring of sex roles he refers to IS
harmful to society in general, and can be reflected in higher divorce
rates, greater family/marital conflict, and other indicators of
unstable societies.

                                                -JCP-

Ps:  Apple@MIT-MC, good comment, but why don't use use a real name,
        or at least tell us who you really are...

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1981 12:34 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: sexism and racism

"...he denies what every human being who lives in our society knows:
that women and men ARE different.  Pretending that it isn't so is
ignoring this reality.....Racism does not include simply pointing out
differences in the behavior of races (as long as they are real, not
imagined, differences); everyone can see that there ARE such
differences".

This sounds like something out of the Shockley school of human
thought.  An "IQ" test rooted in white culture is given to black
people who have much less chance to attend a decent school, and when
they get lower scores, the conclusion is that blacks are less
intelligent.  Sexism and racism in the context discussed is looking at
culturally distorted people, assuming they are that way inherently,
and then limiting their opportunities for action to fit your
stereotypes.

------------------------------

Date:  1 October 1981 1332-EDT (Thursday)
From: Marc.Donner at CMU-10A
Subject:  Sexism

The basic flavor of this discussion of sexism and the differences
between men and women is insane.  The fundamental assumption made by
the virulent anti-sexists is that any recognition of a 'difference'
between men and women also implies a value judgement ... that if men
and women are different, then *obviously* one is better than the
other.  This is the premise that they are attacking with such vigor.
Unfortunately, they don't attack it expressly, but rather they attack
the recognition of the differences between men and women.

I suggest that it is possible to recognize the differences without
embracing the archaic superiority/inferiority trip that our culture
has inherited from past ages.  The fact is that men and women are
different both physically and emotionally ... to deny it would be to
fly in the face of an incredible mass of evidence.  Try reading Anais
Nin's Diary for the perspective from a woman who was aware of the
differences and who refused to accept the stereotypical imperatives.
This didn't mean that she denied her sexuality ... she denied the
assumption of intellectual inferiority that the society around her
made about her.  There is a big difference.

Someone once wrote that the real title of every book was 'How To Be
More Like Me.'  Rather than ranting and raving about the immorality of
the views and beliefs of authors, why not try to understand what about
a person would make him say the things he does.  Most people believe
themselves to be reasonable and it would be interesting to understand
how they rationalize their beliefs.

The fact that Lange/Norman's Gor books are as successful as they are
means that there are a lot of people in the world who find that stuff
attractive.  As distasteful as this may be to the bulk of us
communicating in SF-LOVERS, the dollars keep rolling in to his
publishers.  Vigorous expressions of outrage or disgust really don't
contribute any more than political speeches:  convinces the
constituents that we are 'good guys'.

Now that the old walls of Victorianism (often mislabeled 'Puritanism'
...  cf the letters between John Winthrop [first Governor of the
Massacusetts colony] and his wife) are beginning to fall, people are
becoming more honest about their sexuality.  We are discovering (with
some horror) that when freedom arrives it doesn't always look the way
we thought it should.

So, rather than attacking the 'badness', or 'sexism', or whatever of
authors, try to understand what they are saying about themselves and
what they think being human is all about.  You don't have to like what
they say; reading a book does not imply acceptance of the author's
views.  But, there is a difference between criticism and polemic.
Let's have more criticism and less polemics.

Marc Donner

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1981 11:44:00-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "female chauvinism" in DREAMSNAKE

   A more careful reading of this book shows that, while there are no
really villainous women, there are at least two men (the ones Snake
gets involved with who are far from "evil or weak"; there is also the
town ruler (the one whose gangrenous leg she heals) who acts with
commendable dispatch in the case of child abuse.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1981 00:00:52-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!woods c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: origins of left and right

   This may be a little off the normal subject of this digest,so I'll
make it short, but I believe the earliest references to "left" and
"right" as political viewpoints was during the French Revolution, when
the Jacobians(I may have that name wrong, but I am fairly sure it
begins with Jac.. ), who wanted to see massive changes in the laws and
who often resorted to terrorist tactics to enforce their ideas, always
sat on the left side of the center aisle in the convention halls,
while the ruling aristocracy who favored the status quo sat on the
right.

                     GREG (ucbvax!menlo70!hao!woods)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1981 1453-EDT
From: STONED::LEWIS
Reply-to: "STONED::LEWIS c/o" <ECG.RICH.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Retief Series

I enjoy the Retief stories also, but the best of them was the first:
Diplomat at Arms.  It is also serious whereas the rest are clearly
parodies.  I think it is in one of the collections under this title.

                     May your eye-stalks remain untwisted,

                                 Suford

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1981 17:06 EDT
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #74

I hate to inject a little fact into this theory:

     Pynchon was/is an electrical engineer and uses this background to
     describe physical and mental phenomena.

but, Tom was my roommate while at Cornell and he was an honors English
major.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #77
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 OCT 1981 0854-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #77
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:
                   Administrivia - Special Digest,
                      SF Topics - SF and Sexism
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3:35am  Sunday, 4 October 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: Special Digest

Due to the rather high volume of messages having to do with the SF and
Sexism discussion, this digest has been especially dedicated to that
topic.  Please remember though that this is a Science Fiction digest,
and that therefore messages bearing on this (and any other) topic
should pertain to Science Fiction in some manner.  So far there does
not seem to be any major difficulty on this point, but it should be
kept in mind for future reference.

Also, the high overall volume of submissions has increased the average
turnaround time for a message appearing in the digest to five days.
While some messages will appear much sooner, that is only because
others will be delayed much longer.  Please bear with me until this
backlog of messages has been reduced.

Jim

------------------------------

Date:  3 October 1981 00:40 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  equility/inequality

I agree that the last two parts of my last message are not totally in
harmony. That stems from my view towards stereotypes in general.

Although much maligned recently, stereotyping people is very useful.
When you encounter someone you haven't met before, how do you treat
them? In the absense of knowledge, I will attempt to find a stereotype
that they fit, and use it. This leads me to making many grevious
mistakes, because the stereotypes do not always fit the individuals.
But those mistakes are LESS frequent and LESS severe than the mistakes
I would make if I didn't use a stereotype and tried to muddle through
from scratch every time.

The problem is that too many refuse to update their stereotypes as
groups change, and, more importantly, refuse to discard the stereotype
for a particular individual when more information is available.

For example, my views of the department secretary went (very
approximately) random female -> female of about my age -> secretary in
business environment -> Kathy. Note the narrowing catagories as more
information is available.

But I must always remind myself that these catagories are not fixed,
and that there are individuals that do not fit any stereotype I
presently have.

Now, qualifications given, the fact that a person is male or female
provides a useful first guess at their reactions and behavior. And,
the useful stereotypes for male and female are different.

As to the nature vs.  nurture business: people who are far more
knowledgable on the subject than you or I have been unable thus far to
decide the issue.  How many experts would you like, and for which
side?  There is considerable evidence for both views.  The issue is
yet open.  My personal opinion is that there are natural or innate or
genetic differences in behavior that depend on sex.  But, because of
the large differences between individuals, the innate differences are
probably only visable when averaged over a large number of
individuals.

Now, the equality issue: I find it very hard to apply the usual
definition of equal to male vs. female. I don't think you can call one
better than the other (unless you very carefully and very narrowly
define "better at what"), but the two are not interchangeable,
indistinguishable, not the same. I think we do both a disservice to
pretend that there are no differences.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1981 12:43 PDT
From: Drysdale at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #76

I intended to stay out of the sex roles discussion, but Pistritto's
comments need a response.  He claimed that "American/European society
suppresses sex differences to an excessive degree" and that "This has
the effect of increasing mental tension, with corresponding symptoms
(societal instability, high divorce rates, mental illness, etc.)."  He
gave as evidence the fact that several Asian countries (Japan, India,
China) now have these symptoms, where before they were largely unheard
of.  He concludes that "confusing/obscuring of sex roles ...  IS
harmful to society in general."

I believe that Pistritto's evidence shows two things.  The first is
that CHANGE causes mental tension (the thesis of Future Shock).
Japan, India, and China have all undergone great social and political
upheavals in the last generation or two.  Supression of traditional
sex roles constitues only a small fraction of the changes experienced
in these countries.  His evidence proves nothing about more or less
rigid sex roles.  If this view is correct, then changing to more rigid
sex roles of a GOR-like society would also cause mental tension.

The other fact about the changes in sex roles is that they have
generally increased the number of options available to men and women.
Fromm in Escape from Freedom points out that freedom of choice
promotes anxiety.  The freer we are, the more we worry about the
choices we have to make.  One of the most stable forms of society is a
feudal society, preferably with a strong caste system.  If the whole
thing is undergirded with a fatalist religion or philosophy which
teaches everyone to accept their station in life and not try to change
anything, such a society can last indefinitely.  In India, China, and
Japan such societies lasted hundreds to thousands of years, and were
eventually disrupted by outside rather than internal influences.
However, I see no evidence that the stability of such a society comes
from differentiation of sex roles, only from clearly defined,
unescapable life roles.  I am willing to accept that a society with
clearly defined roles for everyone and little freedom may be more
stable and might have less anxiety.  But I do not see how limiting
choice by sex is more or less effective than limiting choice by race,
money, or accident of birth in this regard.  In my value system,
freedom of choice for individuals is worth the cost of a bit of
anxiety.

Scot Drysdale

------------------------------

Date:  1 Oct 1981 1156-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: racism and sexism in SF

     Ho hum.  Here we go again.  This isn't the first time "Gone With
The Wind" has been called a racist novel, and it won't be the last
time.  Yes, GWTW is racist; and the US Civil War was fought between
the North, who wanted to end slavery, and the South, who wanted to
preserve it.  The Emancipation Proclamation was delayed only because
Lincoln was too busy with directing the war.  And it is perfectly
valid for a black youngster, prompted by his/her parents' teachings,
to lay the slavery guilt trip on a white youngster whose Jewish
grandparents escaped to the US from Nazi Germany.

     Vonda McIntyre's "Dreamsnake" accurately portrays the difference
between the sexes with no prejudice.  Ann McCaffrey and Tolkien are
hopeless reactionary romantics who want to keep women in inferior
positions.

     I'd like to continue, but I have to wipe all the bull shit off my
keyboard.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1981 11:33:14-PDT
From: Cory.alan at Berkeley
Subject: sexism

While I rarely argue this side of this argument, I think that the
people who have been doing so make some interesting points that
generate mostly reactionary responses, or at least poorly worded ones.
So, here are some poor words of my one:

First of all, I think Marc Donner made an good point in that
anti-sexists attribute a value judgment to what is really a
recognition of a difference.  Most of my rambling will hover around
this opinion and my belief that it is wrong.  Noticing a difference is
not bad.  Assuming that something is inferior because it is different
is.  Moreover, assuming someone places a label of inferiority just
because they notice a difference is being sexist-ist:  Stereotyping
all people who argue on the other side of sexism as being narrowminded
and having superiortity complexes and being generally lousy people.
Perhaps what they are trying to point out is that the tone of most
arguments about sexism/racism gets imflammatory really fast, usually
by assuming that one person's value system is correct, or another's is
different and therefore wrong.  (is this value-ism?)

In response to Chip Hitchcock's assertion that "There is no such thing
as an innocuous doctrine of inequality," I wonder if there is such a
thing as an "innocuous doctrine" concerning ANYTHING, and if so, what
good would it be?  I don't think that the point is that doctrine is
innocuous or not, but whether or not it agrees with some basic values
that he believes everyone else should.  (I tend to, myself, also, but
there is really no reason to think that there should be this ambiguous
"equality" that the some of us are rooting for.)

Also, I forget who said this, but I really don't think it should be
INCUMBENT upon the Science Fiction writer to produce un-sexist or
anti-sexist fiction.  In fact, I don't see how anyone can presume to
say how a writer should do anything.  That is really for the writer to
decide.  Nor do I think that writing ABOUT sexism is necessarily a
statement in favor of sexism.  Most fiction reflects a society,
ususally that of the writer (even in SF), so if that society is
sexist, then there may be a certain amount of sexism in order to make
that society believable to the reader.  Or if not believable, at least
identifiable.  And if not to the reader, then to the writer, since
he'll probably be writing about something at least a little familiar.
I don't think it is right to condemn an author for reflecting the
values of his society if the point of the book was not to comment on
that society or its values.  Why must Science Fiction be a social
statement?  Why can't it be a good story, a character study, or some
other kind of statement?  Is it realistic fiction to project a society
without faults that have been plaguing this earth for all of its
societies?  Is it unrealistic fiction to project that things will get
worse, not better?  Is the mere fact that an author believes (whether
or not he tries to convince the reader to believe also) in something
against the moral grain of the reader a reason to not like the book?
And is not liking the book necessarily imply that it was badly
written?  Maybe you weren't supposed to?

But this is getting ridiculous.  I just get carried away when I see
people making all sorts of presumptions upon the writer.  What
statement is he making? and all that.  (I like it even less when
people say "author so-and-so was saying THIS, although he didn't
realize it at the time....")  I think that the requirement for a good
book is good writing.  And while opinions differ, to me good writing
does not have to have political impact, make a societal statement,
preach morals or values, or reveal a universal truth.  It has to keep
the reader's interest and attention.  How it does this is really up to
the writer.

But if you really want to argue sexism or racism, comment on these
classic examples:

        Two people are applying for a job.  One male, one female.  The
        person interviewing the applicants is male.  As it turns out,
        the two males have a lot of socialization in common, and while
        they do not discuss this during the interview, the interviewer
        is more easily persuaded, impressed, etc. by the male
        applicant than the female one.  Both are equally qualified, so
        the male person gets the job, since the interviewer received a
        better impression from the male applicant, and feels also that
        he will be more predictable (to a male supervisor).  Is this
        sexist?

        There are two runners in a race.  A black man and a white man.
        The black man is shackled and fares poorly.  After a while, an
        official notices the unfairness of the situation, and removes
        the shackles.  The race starts over.  Should the black man,
        who was previously shackled receive some sort of compensation
        for his earlier condition?  (Like a head start or something?)
        Is this fair?

Answer them to yourself and ask yourself why you answered it the way
you did.  Better yet, see what kind of assumptions the questions are
making and how those affect how we view arguments concerning sexism or
racism.  (It really doesn't matter which example is sexist and which
is racist.)  --Alan Char

------------------------------

Date:  1 Oct 1981 1756-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW at SRI-KL>
Subject: Tooth and nail societies and sexism

I don't see why women not having any of the characteristic of those in
GOR type books rules out a tooth and nail type society.  Let us not
forget that there is more to survival than mere brute strength.  I
don't think anyone will argue that an "average" woman cannot lift as
much dead weight or run quite as fast as an "average" man (Of course
there are your amazons and your wimps -- I have known girls who
probably could have thrown me halfway across a decent sized room).
But these are not the only factors that are good for survival.  I
would almost be willing to bet large sums of money that women have
better balance, air-sense and spatial awareness than men. (some
definitions: air-sense is being able to tell which way is up and which
way is down, and how you are oriented with respect to those
directions, and how to change that orientation.  Spatial awareness is
the ability to keep track of where other objects, including your
limbs, are while you are using your air-sense to figure out which
direction you are going. All of this is very useful in falling out of
trees and such).  If you dont believe me, try going to a USGF Junior
National class gymnastics meet sometime. (By the way: If you want to
learn about trust, get there in time for vaulting warmups).  Also,
there are all of those martial arts that will tell you that your body
type is not all that significant in you ability to kill.

As an aside, I would think that there is lots of SF that is not sexist
-- lots of juviniles and other books where the characters are more or
less completely sexless.  Of course, these books tend to be labeled
BAD becuase they don't develop the personalities of the characters.
You can't win -- If you want realistic characters, they are likely to
look either male or female, and somebody will get mad at you.  Maybe
if you think like a bisexual, and give each character a number, and
then use a random number generator to figure out which character have
which sex.  Oh well, I guess what it boils down to is that it is a lot
easier to develop a completely alien intelligence/personality than to
try to define what humans will be like in a couple decades.

Bill W

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #78
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 OCT 1981 0903-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #78
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:
              SF Movies - Daleks Invade Earth 2150 A.D &
               Star Wars fighters & Names in Star Wars,
        SF Books - Series (GOR/Vance/Watchtower/Riddle Master/
                    Riverworld/Amber) & Babel 17,
    SF Topics - Women in Science & SF and Sexism & Right and Left
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  3 Oct 1981 1422-EDT
From: Mark W. Terpin <MARKT at MIT-XX>
Subject: Daleks Invade Earth

        If you're a fan of the good Doctor, it's a worthwhile movie.
I saw it a few years ago, but I remember it takes place on earth after
the holocaust, where there are a small number of surviving humans, and
mutants.  The Daleks then invade and try to take over. The Daleks are
one of the super races who believe that it is their destiny to rule
the universe, who pop up a few times in the series. They look like
giant salt-shakers with arms, and one of their favorite phrases is
"Exterrrrrminate!!".
        The movie has Dr., played by Peter Cushing, who acted "older"
and was not as whimsical as the present Tom Baker.  His female
companion, I believe, was "Jo"; I can't even remember what she looks
like any more. I had heard that this movie was the pilot for the first
Dr. Who series.
                               -Mark

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1981 1441-EDT
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: TIE Bombers


There were Y-wings in Star Wars.  They flew the first (and second?)
bombing runs over the Death Star.  The X-wings were flying cover (and
apparently backup - the X-wings didn't do any bombing runs until
almost all of the Y-wings were creamed).  In the fly-away shot just
before the Death Star explodes, one can clearly see the Falcon, 2
X-wings (piloted by Luke and Wedge Antilles), and 1 Y-wing (pilot
unknown) beating it the hell out of the blast zone.

Regards,
Susan

------------------------------
Date: 1 Oct 1981 1626-EDT
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL Response

In response to Steven M. Bellovin's (decvax!duke!unc!smb) query in SFL
V4 I69, Maria Mitchell was a prominent 19th century astronomer.  She
grew up on Nantucket Island, and became interested in the stars while
watching her father calibrate ship's chronometers.  From a very early
age she was able to tell time by the position of the stars, and she
discovered several comets.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1981 1728-EDT
From: STONED::LEWIS
Reply-to: "STONED AT LEWIS c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: this one time only (SFL)

I can no longer resist the temptation to contribute my several cents
on random topics.

SW & TESB - C3P0 is obviously from "Metropolis" - which I recommend
            for its great 'awakening of the robot' scene.  It's a
silent but I keep forgetting that, it's such a neat movie.  Some of
the technology is absurd even for the time, but the danger of
dehumanization by technology is powerfully stated.

            I had assumed that his original name was Ben Kenobi and
for some impressive act he had been given the sobriquet "Obi-Wan".  I
got the idea that it was a name GIVEN TO HIM by the way Guiness says
"I haven't heard the name 'Obi-Wan' in a long, long time".  You don't
say that sort of thing about your own name.  He doesn't see people
much in his life in the desert on Tatooine and nobody has called him
'Ben' in a while either.

            The 'Obi' would be a shortened form of his last name;
that's why the syllables are repeated.  The 'Wan' would be perhaps an
honorific, like san in Japanese which is also added at the end.  The
fact that 'Obi-Wan' Kenobi happens to mean something in Japanese that
is handy to the SW story is outside of the means by which, inside the
SW universe, he got the name.

The Gor series - As a female, I am perhaps less interested in the
                 extreme pandering to male sexist fantasy that the Gor
books indulge in.  I think they are all pretty pathetic.  On the other
hand there isn't that much explicit, meticulously described sex and
violence.  It is sort of the masculine counterpart of Barbara Cartland
(who panders to female romantic fantasies, but even SHE believes that
her females should be actively DOING something).  There is plenty of
reference to sex and violence in the Gor books, but very little
description of the reality of either.  That would spoil the mood,
which depends on the reader thinking all the action is heroic and
wonderful.

          The thing I find most distasteful about the Gor series is
that John Norman ACTUALLY BELIEVES that women need to be dominated to
be fulfilled.  I find this notion so impossible, words fail me.  John
Norman has also written a book entitled Imaginative Sex.  It is NOT
very imaginative and shows no knowledge of even the Kama Sutra.  And
this man is a Professor of English somewhere in NY.  AAARGH!

Planet of Adventure - I too am a fan of Jack Vance.  I must point
                      out that the Pnume were the indigenous race.
The humans were on the planet because one or more of the spacefaring
races had imported them for labor.

------------------------------

Date: 3 October 1981 01:25-EDT
From: James A. Cox <APPLE at MIT-MC>
Subject: Sexism, SF and Gor


     I also thought that John Norman's presentation of the contrasting
sex roles in Gorean and Terran (read "Euro-american") societies was
interesting.  I think that anyone who reads the series realizes that
there is some basic truth in his "theory."  We all know that many
problems in our society began appearing at about the same time that
sex roles started to become less strictly defined.  This realization
is disturbing to those who refuse to allow any differences in behavior
due to gender.  I confess that the extent to which Norman carries the
concept of sex roles distresses me.  To him, all women carry with them
some instinct which causes them to become submissive sex slaves when
confronted with a "real" man.  I think there may be some truth to
this, considering that many women have the fantasy of being raped.
However, very, very few women find the actual experience of rape to be
at all pleasant.  (I've had many fantasies, not necessarily sexual in
nature, that I'm sure I'd find unpleasant if they were to actually
take place.  Nevertheless, I'm sure that my fantasies in some way
express a part of my personality.)  Because they're so extreme, I find
the Gor books to be degrading to women, and therefore sexist.
However, it must also be considered that in a later Gor book (probably
a middle Gor book by now), Tarl Cabot himself becomes a sex slave.
This last point probably shows that, instead of making any
"statements," John Norman probably writes whatever he thinks will
sell.

     One thing I want to make clear is that the reason I think
Norman's books are sexist is that they go so far in polarizing the
behavior of men and women.  I do not think that most women would turn
into sex slaves when confronted by a Gorean man.  Norman's crime is
not that he shows differences between the behavior of men and women,
but rather that these differences are imagined rather than real.  Now
who defines "real" and "imagined" differences?  I think there exists a
middle ground, between the extremes, that most people would agree on.
In this case the middle ground lies somewhere between the views of
Norman and those of some of the more radical contributors to
SF-Lovers.

                        - Jim Cox

------------------------------
Date: 2 October 1981 1500-PDT (Friday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Who is the master? -- Who is the slave?

I had no idea that my simple mention of the GOR series (during our
discussion of "poor" SF) would trigger the current discussion.  Seems
like alot more people have read at least PART of the series than would
normally admit it.

I have read enough GOR to know that Lange is saying alot more than,
"there are differences between the sexes."  What he is saying is,
"women are only happy when completely and totally dominated by men."

The argument that society tends to exhibit more stress when sexual
differences are "suppressed" is really saying that "things run more
smoothly when half of society (the women) shut up and don't get in the
way of the men."  Project this back a ways and you find the ruling
class saying, "The empire runs so much more smoothly as long as the
serfs stay in their place," or "The plantations run so smoothly as
long as the slaves don't aspire to be more than slaves."

The key isn't the differences, but rather whether YOU are in charge.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1981 16:03:27-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson)
Reply-to: "ihuxo!hobs care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Miscellaneous items

<Enter pedantic mode>
According to Seth A. Steinberg (SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics) in
SFL v4 #73, the term Left was defined at the "Conference of Vienna"
(that's "Congress", not "Conference") in 1815.  The term actually
dates back about twenty years earlier to one of the French
Revolutionary parliaments (I think the National Assembly, but they are
largely interchangeable -- and were, in fact, frequently changed)
where the radicals sat on the left side of the hall and the
conservatives sat on the right.  <leave pedantic mode>

I was in a bookstore yesterday, and, my curiousity piqued by the
discussion of the GOR series, picked up two of the books off the rack
("Slave Girl of Gor" was one, I forget the other), and opened them at
random.  They are just as bad and just as sexist as everyone has been
saying.  I bought "Slave Girl" to show to my wife who works at a
shelter for abused women.  After skimming the book for about an hour,
she spent the next two hours flaming at me about the book.  I will
spare you what she said (those of you who have read GOR can imagine
the tenor of her remarks), but she was seriously thinking that the
Marquis de Sade (she referred specifically to THE 120 DAYS OF SODOM)
was preferable to John Norman Lange.

<enter flame mode>
It seems to me to be amazing that someone can reasonably hold such
sexist and dangerous views.  "Dangerous?", you ask.  Yes, because it
legitimizes the abuse of women, and there is enough trouble on that
score without the abuser thinking that what he is doing can be morally
justified (see, it says here in this book that a true woman takes
whatever her lord and master dishes out and LIKES IT!  Come here,
bitch.)  <leave flame mode>

Tom Polucci (Polucci at MIT-Multics) (same issue) seems to imply that
"new wave" SF is non-sexist.  To me, new wave is typified by the
DANGEROUS VISIONS books edited by Harlan Ellison, and the one story
that I remember best from that series (apart from Philip Jose Farmer's
"Riders of the Purple Wage") was a story called (I kid you not) "The
Great Space Fuck", which was remarkably sexist--as well as stupid.
BTW, why can't Ellison write a quiet story?  He always seems to be
screaming at the top of his lungs, frequently very well--he is a first
class writer, but always screaming.  Well, maybe he isn't screaming
in, say, "Shattered Like a Glass Goblin", but he does tend to bludgeon
the reader instead of wooing the reader.

I read Elizabeth Lynn's WATCHTOWER trilogy.  I also found the incest
in "Dancers of Arun" troubling, as well as the fact that the only
satisfactory sexual relationships that any character has seems to be
homosexual, including the incestuous one.

The one book by Delany that I did like (no, I was not able to get more
than about forty pages into DHALGREN either, I once saw, I think in an
ANALOG article of about 1970, the question:  "Name three things that
human beings will never attain.  Answer: The speed of light, the edge
of the unverse, page 60 of DHALGREN") was BABEL 17.  I found that
Delany's handling of the Whorf hypothesis (the language that you speak
has a direct bearing on the way that you think) was very good, better
than Vance in THE LANGUAGES OF PAO, and I was swept up by the story.
Delany also did well in "Time Considered As a Helix of Semi-Precious
Stones" (nice title too).

I read McKillip's "RIDDLEMASTER" trilogy and I was underwhelmed.  When
Morgon is first introduced, the fact that he has this mysterious jewel
in his forehead is not mentioned, which is sloppy writing, and I could
not believe that he could have solved the quest of the Ghost Tower,
come away with the crown, and not bother to mention it to anyone.
Parts of the books were excellent (or else I would not have read the
whole thing) but I was not as taken as I hoped to be.

Will Martin (WMartin at Office-3) mentions in V4 #74 that Farmer in
the RIVERWORLD series recapitulates every book.  Someone else who does
the same thing (only better) is Zelazny in the AMBER series.  I am
taken with his suggestion that:
    Maybe most SF writers should be used for nothing but
    creating environments.  Then these concepts would be
    turned over to really skilled writers for creating plot
    and characterization.

My suggestions would include Tolstoy's DUNE, Dostoyevsky's KNOWN
SPACE, Mark Twain's RIVERWORLD (isn't that an engaging thought).

                                John

------------------------------

Date:  2 Oct 1981 (Friday) 1549-EDT
From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (Bill Sharer)
Subject: Sex differences

        1) I'd say that the discussion has moved out of the realm of
           this digest.  Does anyone else agree.

           [ As long as a message discusses sex differences relating
             in some fashion to Science Fiction, it has a right to
             appear in the digest.  Of course, purely political
             messages do not enjoy such a "privilege."  - Jim ]


        2) The effect that your sex has on your behavior may be less
           drastic than the effect that the levels of Testosterone and
           Estrogen have on it.  These levels place people in a wide
           spectrum of levels of aggressiveness and such.  Why do you
           think there are those people who prefer to change sex?
           Also your genetic make up may not always be either XX or
           XY.  There are cases of People with XXY or XXX or even XYY!

mr bill

PS: and for all those who believe in reincarnation.....you've been a
     women about half the time and a man the other half.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #79
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 OCT 1981 0455-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #79
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:
   SF Books - Turnabout & Looking Backwards & Mazes and Monsters &
           Series (X-Men/Comics/Dray Prescott/Retief/GOR) &
                 Unfinished books (Delaney/Pynchon),
           SF TV - HHGttG,  SF Movies - Star Wars fighters,
                      SF Topics - SF and Sexism
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  4 October 1981 13:42 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Thorne Smith

Just a reminder that Del Rey has recently reprinted Thorne Smith
(Author of "Topper"), one of the funniest writers ever.  One of the
reprints is "Turnabout", in which an evil (or at least mischievious )
spirit switches the mind/body arrangement of a husband/wife pair.
Besides making some remarkably modern comments on sex roles, the book
also shows how little suburbia has changed in fifty years; the biggest
difference seems to be that the cure for boredom then was sex and
booze instead of sex and booze and drugs.  The book contains a
cocktail party scene which could be used as a textbook example of
inspired farce.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1981 1258-PDT
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: 'Looking Backwards'

        Did somebody on this list say that 'Looking Backwards' was by
Jeremy Bentham?  I don't think so.  Bentham was an 18th/early 19th
century philosopher--father of utilitarianism.  'Looking Backwards'
was by Edward Bellamy (I believe) who wrote in the last half of the
19th century.  [ Correct - Jim ]

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 21 September 1981 0746-PDT (Monday)
From: mike at UCLA-Security (Michael Urban)
Subject: Review: "Mazes and Monsters"

   Recently a "mainstream" novel called "Mazes and Monsters" by Rona
Jaffe appeared with some reasonably heavy marketing.  It concerns the
disappearance of a college student who was known to play "Mazes and
Monsters" in the caverns near his small college.  If that sounds
familiar, it's because it's similar to the "Egbert Incident" of two
years ago in which a 16-year-old college sophomore disappeared amid
rumors of Dungeons and Dragons playing in the campus steam tunnels.
   Character studies of gaming freaks and how gaming both helps and
hinders their social development would probably form the basis for an
interesting and insightful novel.  This isn't it.  Don't waste your
time.  The story is really just a "college students finding self-
awareness and true love" glop with D&D (excuse me, M&M) attached.  The
players (they sort of divided Egbert into four separate neuroses) are
unlike any gaming fans >I've< ever met.  And the writing is genuinely
some of the most pedestrian and inept crud I've read in a long time.
Aside from the technically poor prose structure (Ms. Jaffe has an
affinity for run-on sentences with semicolons), the writing is a
beautiful specimen of "tell them everything" writing.  No character
can feel an emotion or experience a thought without the narrator's
voice explaining it in detail.  And, in case that wasn't enough, she
throws in an "Epilogue" in which one of the characters explains to his
parents why these people were playing the game, and why they no longer
need such fantasy constructs.  Just in case you hadn't read the book.
   This review is too long for a crummy book like this.  But some of
you might have seen the book and been curious, as I was.  Since this
is the sort of book that ends up as a TV-movie, you might as well wait
for that.
        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1981 19:59:00-PDT
From: purdue!cak at Berkeley
Reply-to: "purdue!cak in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: HhGttG

Does anyone know if a third (final?) series exists? I listened to the
12 issues that were broadcast over the last week, and it is clear that
these were two separate series. I was much happier with the end of the
first series than the second, but I am still eager for more.
                Chris Kent
                (purdue!cak)

------------------------------

Date: 02 Oct 1981 0940-PDT
From: William Gropp <WDG at SU-AI>
Subject: Y-wings

Most of the previous comments are correct.  Y wings appeared in the
first attacks on the Death Star in SW4, and Y wings were visable at
the end of SW5 around the rebel cruiser.  The TIE bomber was,
according to the STAR WARS Sketchbook, originally a boarding vessel,
the second tube containing Stormtroupers.  They were used a bombers in
SW5.  No TIE bombers appeared in SW4.
                                                Bill Gropp

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1981 01:51-EDT
From: John Howard Palevich <TANG at MIT-AI>
Subject: Comic Book SF series


        The X-Men comic series (as well as a few other Marvel comics)
is a good example of a series that doesn't go downhill with time.  A
"team" of characters can change with time and taste -- much like a
soap opera -- and one can even go around killing off major characters
for good.

        Now the writing/plotting isn't superb, but it's closer to
Shakespeare (a little love, some wit, a tear or two and a fight scene)
than you might expect.  The drawings are much better than they used to
be -- I guess the reproduction technology has improved -- and the
X-Men tend to be somewhat less photogenic than your average comic book
heroes.  They also tend to have more complex personalities, as well as
more character development over time.  At the start of the series much
was made over an anti-mutant sentiment among the normal populace --
Frankenstien's Monster complex from the monster's point of view.  I
stopped reading the series for a few years, and now the mutants seem
to be fairly well accepted.

        On the emotional level the attraction of the X-Men is pure
wish fufilment: Wouldn't it be neat to be able to shoot lazer beams
out of one's eyes?  But the comic also gratifies the intellectual
level: The Cyclops character has to wear peculiar glasses (or keep his
eyes shut) at all times.  (I think that he had to manually open a
visor in his suit to control the blasts in a fight).

        The comic still has a few sexist attitudes (don't we all) --
Phoenix was a female character who kept getting more and more
powerful, 'till the galactic empire got their act together and
sentenced her to death. (The comic code strikes again: Phoenix
destroys a star as a hack & blows away a planet full of innocent
people) The X-Men defended her as best they could, but she dies in the
battle.  Essentially the female characters are not allowed to wield as
much power as the male ones.

        Another very large and loosely connected series is, of course,
the whole super-hero comic world (The paper ones, not the kid-vids).
The plotting/dialog/ideas/art in all these have become mugh better
since Marvel started the "intellectual" trend with the Spiderman
character.  It used to be there were two worlds -- DC and Marvel, with
Marvel being a notch above DC on ideas & such.  Now, with the
DC-Marvel team-ups, I think the worlds are merging.  One advantage
comics have over books is that mistakes in plotting/construction (like
creating an alien race on the Moon) can be rectified.  The old readers
stop and the new readers don't remember the race & it is never
mentioned again.

        Comics also tend to be very close to myths in that the same
tales are told over and over again to generations of kids.  The
villains may change (once was the evil yellow horde, used to be
corporate executives, now it tends to be evil incarnate) but the
stories are still much the same.
        Anything called "Number one in the <name>: <honorific> of
<place> Series." is sure to be BAD, and almost sure to be the LAST and
ONLY episode of the series, too.

        A great advantage of a series (to the reader) is that you can
be sure, within 50% of the quality of the book & so guarantee a good
return on the three or four dollars (or even the three to four hours)
you spend reading it.  If I have only five hours a week to read SF I
want to be able to maximize my enjoyment. I have taken to punting
books which aren't interesting within the first fifty pages, to
judging books by their titles and inside covers, and to reading
sequals in my never ending quest to read as much good SF in as little
time as possible.

        Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 1981 0035-MDT
From: Spencer W. Thomas <THOMAS at UTAH-20>
Subject: Series, etc.

I'm sort of surprised that nobody has mentioned the Dray Prescott
series (Alan Burt Akers).  At last count it is up to about 15 books,
loosely arranged into trilogies (with !#@#! cliff-hanger endings in
the middle books).  Not exactly what I'd call top-quality literature,
but certainly a good escapist read.  He does get a little tiresome
(after all, how many new things can you dream up in 15 books), maybe
that's why I stopped buying them (never new, btw, always used at 1/2
price).  Anybody else out there even heard of them?  (Another DAW
book, you know, the ones with the red lettering on a yellow spine so
you can't miss them on the shelf?)
=S

------------------------------

Date:  2 October 1981 10:29 edt
From:  JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love)
Subject:  Retief Origin

If 'Diplomat at Arms' is the story I think it is, it appeared in a
magazine story in the 1960's and has never (to the best of my ability
to determine) been anthologized.  This is truly unfortunate, since
this is by far the best of the Retief stories.  In brief (and this
shouldn't need a spoiler warning), the story tells how he leaves the
Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne, and why, and explains his origins,
which gives a marvelous perspective on his attitudes and talents.  I
strongly recommend reading other Retief stories first, as this will
give a greater appreciation for the vague hints on the subject of his
origins and ambitions which the other stories contain.

I found this story by examining the index to science fiction magazines
at the MITSFS, and then going to the appropriate bound volume.  There
are several Retief stories listed, but this is the earliest.  I would
be \very/ interested in being told that this story appeared in a book
(and which one).
                                -- Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 1 October 1981 18:35-EDT
From: Thomas L. Davenport <TLD at MIT-MC>
Subject:  Ronald McDonald has been watching Cosmos.

During recent travels in the Northeast, I noticed at least three
McDonald's burger palaces where the signs had been changed to read
"Billions and Billions Served"(!)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1981 12:21 PDT
From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: I can't resist passing this along.

My intrinsic female emotionalism renders me unable to resist tossing
this comment into the current sexism/racism debate.  Unfortunately,
I've forgotten who said it, but it was in reply to the doctor who was
discussing the suitability of women holding political office and who
declared that "women are at the mercy of their raging hormones.":

"Sure, `anatomy is destiny' -- if you're a cocker spaniel, you'll
never be president of General Motors."

------------------------------

Date:  4 October 1981 17:29 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Thank you Marc.Donner

I agree exactly.
                Paul

------------------------------

Date:  4 October 1981 17:29 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  My last words on Gor

Several people, most recently STONED AT LEWIS, have expressed
amazement the John Norman "ACTUALLY BELIEVES that women need to be
dominated..."

Not necessarily. Norman writes about a world in which the women need
and want to be dominated. I don't think it necessary that Norman
either believes it himself or holds it true about present
time-and-place women.

I'm perfectly willing to give the man credit for being intelligent
enough to write something he doesn't believe because other people want
to buy it and thus he can earn his living. Heaven only knows, I do
that often enough myself.

And, among other writers I know, sometimes the writers' work reflects
their personal beliefs, and sometimes it doesn't. The more experienced
and "better" a writer, I suspect, the less likely it is that he will
be limited to his own beliefs.

Perhaps assuming that a writer's work is ALWAYS an accurate
representation of the writers personal views is the most insidious
-ism of any discussed here.

                        Paul

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 1981 13:51:21-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: two gripes

\I/ \am/ \getting/ \pretty/ \tired/ \of/ \slashes/ \for/
\emphasis/, especially \for/ \more/ \than/ \one/ \word/\!/

Even worse is long, interesting tirades, without a signature
(human-name) at the bottom.

                        AARGH!

                        Guess Who

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 1981 14:18:13 EDT (Sunday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: dhalgren, delaney, pynchon

I like Delaney.  His style is as rich as French pastry, his characters
are deep, real, and believable.  Almost all of his characters come
close to being as interesting as real people, quite an accomplishment
for a writer.  The cultures he builds (in "Time as a helix...",
"Dhalgren", "Nova", etc.) are imaginative new possibilities.  Hope
some of them happen.

Delaney is a genuine wordsmith.  The truly amazing thing about a book
like Dhalgren is that every word is in the right place (and there are
so many....).  I'll grant that books like Dhalgren don't seem to go
anywhere, but the aimless wandering is SO GOOD.  I'm actually sorry
when Delaney's books end--it's like having to leave a place where
you've had a truly fine time and met truly fine people, and to which
you will be unable to return for a while.

This last paragraph applies equally well (except for the truly fine
people and places) to "Gravity's Rainbow" and "V" by Thomas Pynchon
(I'll punt the bizarre Boer/Nazi sexual practices the next time
through).

Both Pynchon and Delaney write for people who like fine writing.  I'll
grant you, if you're after ZAP and POW, (why not play a video game,
then?) "Dhalgren" will disappoint you.

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #80
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 OCT 1981 0431-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #80
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:
                         SF Magazines - Omni,
                     SF Books - Oath of Fealty &
               Series(Flandry/Moressey/Dray Prescott),
              SF Movies - Daleks Invade Earth 2150 A.D,
                    SF Radio - Lord of the Rings,
SF Topics - The Soul of a New Machine & SF and Sexism & Right and Left
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  5 Oct 1981 1319-EDT
From: G.PALEVICH at MIT-EECS
Subject: Oath of Fealty


        This month's Omni magazine contains a short story which is
probably an excerpt from "Oath of Fealty" (by Niven and Pournelle).
The excerpt is titled "Oath of Fealty" and concerns a gigantic city a
quarter of a mile high and two miles on a side.  The story is set in
the near future.

        This piece sort of stands on its own, but from the character
development and foreshadowing I would bet that the book itself deals
with the growth of the city-state over a period of many years.  The
basic idea is not nearly as instantly exciting as the other books
(Mote in God's Eye, Inferno, Lucifer's Hammer), but maybe LN&JP don't
want to give away all their ideas in one excerpt.

        This Omni also had a good story (I forget the title) along the
lines of Pohl's "Gateway" and an un-exciting Harlan Ellison story.

                                Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Date: 4 October 1981 2018-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: The Soul of a New Machine

While not SF, "The Soul of a New Machine" by Tracy Kidder should make
interesting reading to many on this list.  It describes the
development of the Eagle/MV8000, Data General's 32-bit extension to
the Eclipse.  For those of you without significant real-world work
experience, be advised that DG has got to be one of the worst
companies in the known universe to work for, but then I work at DEC.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 1981 16:45:49-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #78

I don't think that the Dr. Who. film was a pilot for the Dr. Who
series, since the Dr. Who series has been around since 1962 (making it
the longest running sf series ever.)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1981 23:13:44-PDT
From: chico!esquire!psl at Berkeley (Peter Langston)
Reply-to: "chico!esquire!psl c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Lord of the Rings on the Radio

Apparently the BBC has produced "Lord of the Rings" as a radio show
which will be airing on PBS stations shortly.  The whole series is
thirteen hours long.  I heard a little sample on PBS "All Things
Considered" (which was where I first heard of Hitch-hiker), but, not
having read the book(s) I didn't get a good feel for how the radio
show will be, (unlike Hitch-hiker which grabbed me immediately).

------------------------------

Date: 2 October 1981 17:33-EDT
From: Ken Harrenstien <KLH at MIT-AI>
Subject: More series...

        I don't see where anybody has yet mentioned the "Flandry"
series of Poul Anderson.  This is actually set in his own version of
"known space" amongst several other novels and I can't possibly
remember them all.  The quality varies, but the later books seem much
more somber and had a much greater impact on me than did the first
ones.  Does anyone have a list?  Does anyone else even LIKE them?  I
think they're great and can't understand why they haven't been
mentioned...

        On another line, John Moressey (who has already been
mentioned, but only incidentally) has an interesting series.  There
are at least three books, "Starbrat", "Under a Calculating Star", and
one other I forget, which are interwoven in a way I've never seen
elsewhere.  The stories in each are all set in the same universe, but
basically independent EXCEPT for one scene that appears in every
novel, from a different viewpoint each time!  The books are
consistently good tales even without this trick, which is pulled off
very well...

        And lastly, I am curious about another series which people
have doubtless seen on the stands, but which again hasn't received any
comment yet.  This is the Dray Prescott adventures by "Alan Burt
Akers"... A friend of mine had several of the initial books and I went
over them during a library SF famine; I don't really want to read all
of the others just to find out what happens (I think it's up to #25
now, not sure).  For the curious, this series is basically a straight
Burroughs ripoff, with Dray Prescott as John Carter and "Kregen
beneath Antares" as Barsoom.  The moral tone and magical
transportation devices are all very similar.  By imbuing the hero with
a supernormal physique good for 1000 years (give or take a few months)
and introducing time-travel capabilities, Akers has set things up for
an essentially infinite series.  There appear to be two different
warring sets of super-beings (slightly akin to the Gorean
Priest-Kings, but unrevealed in my limited reading) who are using Dray
as a pawn in some also unrevealed strategy.

        Anyway: can anyone with a bigger library and more stamina
please elucidate on this?  Who exactly are the Savanti and Everoinye,
and what's the whole point?  How does the Gdoinye (sp?) bird fit into
this stuff?  Who or what is Akers, and does s/he/it ever climb down
off the high moral pedestal that is always carried around to justify
all the gore and pseudo-seduction scenes?  Is Prescott really Horatio
Alger?  Are you a fencer?

--Ken

------------------------------

Date:  4 Oct 1981 0943-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Prejudice in literature throughout the ages

Is anyone out there familiar with Shakespeare's TWO GENTLEMEN OF
VERONA, where Shylock (a Jew) got screwed in the end, and the play was
billed as one of his "comedies" ("comedy" referring only to any play
which had a "happy" ending)?

Is this Anti-Semitic (Anti-Jewish, if you prefer) literature or is
this a great classic?

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 5 October 1981 0305-PDT (Monday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: John Norman in Real Life

As I mentioned before, I strongly suggest that persons curious about
John Norman (Lange)'s "real" philosophy skim through his "Imaginative
Sex" book.  Unlike his GOR books, Imaginative Sex would appear to be
rather pure "Lange" philosophy.

Capsule summary:  Norman truly believes about 80% of the GORean
philosophy.  He IS willing to admit some benefits to a non-GORean
setup, but one gets the impression that he thinks we'd all be alot
happier under a GOR-type arrangement.

--Lauren--

P.S.  I too was sparked by the recent flurry of GOR messages into once
again peering at the collection down at the local SF depot.  I found
that quite a few new books had appeared since I last looked under "N
for Norman".  I noticed that Norman apparently diverted the series
again (at least for 2 books) off of his main character (Tarl Cabot).
Starting with "Rogue of Gor", we find a typical "weak" Earth male who
has been transported to Gor as a slave for females.  My quickie skim
seemed to indicate that he rapidly escaped from this condition and
entered the typical dominant Gorean role.  No doubt he was almost as
bad as Tarl by the end of the book.

By the way, is someone going to get the "Housewives of Gor" satire
online?  I gotta see it!

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1981 11:43:26-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: your last words on Gor

   Your general thesis (that writers don't limit themselves to what
they believe in) is accurate to varying degrees with varying writers.
   \\However//, applying this thesis to Professor John Lange is a
mistake.  If you look back at my first message on this topic (some
weeks ago) you will see my note that he argues this mundanely as a
philosphical position (I have been told that ethical naturalism was
the basis of his PhD thesis, though the same caveat applies there as
to fiction) and in his mundane works (e.g. GHOST DANCE (?)) and even
in his non-fiction (consider the recently-discussed IMAGINATIVE SEX,
in which he makes his philosophy explicit). Considering his incredible
vanity (leaving a major publisher because an editor with many years in
the field says your work needs cutting), I doubt that he would spend
\\all// of his time professing a position he doesn't believe in rather
than whatever he does believe.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1981 09:02 PDT
From: Ayers at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Writers Believing What They Write

Recall the note on the dedication page of A. C. Clarke's Childhood's
End?

  "The opinions expressed in this book are not those of the author."

Bob

------------------------------

Date:  5-Oct-81  0:44:42 PDT (Monday)
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF as social statement

Cory.alan at Berkeley asks, "Why must Science Fiction be a social
statement?  Why can't it be a good story, a character study, or some
other kind of statement?"  It seems to me that man is a social being,
and even a story of a man alone reflect's the character's implicit
moral system, starting with the character's decision to live rather
than die.  As soon as there is more than one character, we have an
implicit political and ideological framework.  I do not believe that
one can develop characters without such a framework.  An SF story
without such a framework becomes merely a (usually boring) catalog of
technological history, without any context to render it meaningful.

This is why "Star Wars" works on so many levels -- because underneath
it all is a story about humans striving for freedom.  And this is why
"Raiders" is little more than a piece of fluff -- the only thing
separating archeologico-imperialist Indiana Jones from the Nazis is
that he has a prettier smile.

--Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1981 1354-MDT
From: Walt <Haas at UTAH-20>
Subject: SF and Stereotyping

My definition of sexism (racism, etc.) is that it is the perpetuation
of a stereotype which is not supported by the facts.  These
stereotypes can have an incredibly powerful influence on a culture.
This fact hit me with great force a few years ago when I promoted a
woman to lead programmer, over several male programmers.  The men
adjusted reasonably well in most cases (she was more competent than
they were), but what surprised me was the amount of opposition I got
from the secretaries.  I had to defend my lead programmer against
various forms of office sniping several times a week for a year or
two, until she moved out of the state (her husband was transferred - I
offered to pay for a divorce, but she wasn't interested).

The experience taught me two things:

1.  Sexism is something done by our culture, not by males alone.
    There is as much sexism in the attitudes of the female half of the
    population as there is in the attitudes of the male half of the
    population.

2.  The most powerful force locking a stereotype into place in a
    culture is learned helplessness.  The people who had the strongest
    negative emotional reaction to my lead programmer were either
    women who believed they were helpless to function outside of their
    [poorly paid, low status] role, or men who felt helpless to deal
    with women [perhaps because they watched a strong mother push
    their weak father around].  The phenomenon of learned helplessness
    is an extremely important one which has been extensively
    researched by Martin Seligman (see "Helplessness" by Seligman,
    published by Freeman).

In recent years there has been some trend away from the strictly
technological type of SF and towards more exploration of how
differences in biology, ecology or culture might influence a society.
Personally I welcome this trend, since I spend my working days
fiddling with technology that's so advanced it doesn't work - who
needs more of the same after five o'clock?!  The biology in some of
the recent stuff is getting to be reasonably respectable, but so far I
don't recall that much writing that explores how cultural stereotypes
might appear and disappear in response to things like new technology,
contact with outside cultures, or other forms of environmental
influence.  For that matter, there isn't that much hard science on the
subject.

                -- Walter O. Haas

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 1981 16:46:20-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Mode: flaming
Subject: sexism, racism, et al.

I had promised myself that I wouldn't comment more till my last overly
long comments appeared, but I can't resist a brief remark:

Hypothesis: whatever differences may exists between races, sexes,
etc., such differences are far smaller in magnitude than
person-to-person variability, and hence should be neglected by society
in most contexts.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 16:03 EDT
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: How Low Can We Go?

My teenagers report that the afternoon serial "General Hospital" has a
"SF" element in it now in that one of the characters is trying to
ruin(?!) the weather in an upstate NY town with a weather control
machine.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1981 06:32:14-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny at Berkeley
Subject: origins of left and right

menlo70!hao!woods has the right revolution, but the wrong origin.  The
terms "left" and "right" gained political significance in Paris, where
liberals hung out on the left bank of the Seine, and conservatives
hung out on the right.  Unfortunately, I don't remember if left and
right are determined by facing upstream or downstream...  [ downstream
if I remember correctly - Jim ]

                                                -- DJ
                                                (ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #81
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 OCT 1981 0658-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #81
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No Missing Digest,
                SF Books - Book hunt & Generic Books,
     SF Movies - Daleks Invade Earth 2150 A.D & Star Wars naming,
                       SF Music - Flash Gordon,
          SF TV - Dr. Who & "Star Trek: Turnabout Intruder",
       Random Topics - Shakespeare and Racism & Right and Left
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3:35am  Thursday, 8 October 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: No Missing Digest

Some hardware difficulties prevented me from composing a digest for
Wednesday, and thus none was transmitted.  Therefore this digest,
Thursday, issue 81, follows immediately after the Tuesday digest,
issue 80.

Also, the play is indeed "The Merchant of Venice," not "Two Gentlemen
of Verona," and the terms "right" and "left" do seem to come from the
seating arrangements in the the National Assembly after the French
revolution.  However, neither topics are science fiction or fantasy,
so neither should be discussed at length in this digest (a not so
subtle hint folks).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 09-Sep-1981
From: PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO
Reply-to: "PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Where can I find these?

Does anybody out there know of bookstores in the Boston or southern
New Hampshire area where any of the following can be had:

        Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
        The Restaurant at the End of the Galaxy
        anything by H. P. Lovecraft

Thanks,

Paul

[  Please respond to Paul directly, not SF-LOVERS.  --  Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1981 17:08:58-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxo!suem at Berkeley
Subject: Generic Books

This is taken directly from the current New York Magazine:

        LITERAL-MINDED LITERATURE

        With no title, no author by-line, no publicity blurbs, and no
cover art, Jove Publications' latest line is the paperback answer to
generic drugs: no-frills novels.  Jove is shipping about 800,000 of
the books to stores and supermarkets this fall, hoping they'll become
stocking stuffers (at $1.50 each) for the whimsical.  There's a
no-frills mystery, "complete with everything: detective, murders,
mysterious woman, telephone, streets, rain," and a no-frills Western
that has the basic "cowboys, horses, one lady, blood, dust and guns."
No-frills science fiction and romance fill out the series.  And if the
venture is successful?  The publisher is considering other generics
like blockbuster and diet books.

This article came complete with a picture of the book display.
The header on the display reads:

                         the adequate gift
                        for every occasion
                            NO-FRILLS
                              BOOKS
                     complete with everything

        Sue McKinnell
        ihuxo!suem

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1981 0012-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF (?) music inquiry - Flash Fearless

I recently picked up a leftover tape for a big $1.99, and discovered
that it was pretty good rock. The reason for this inquiry is that this
gem is titled "Flash Fearless Versus The Zorg Women Parts 5 & 6".
Does anybody know if there are other parts?  And if so, what this is a
part of?  A never-produced rock opera or something?

The tape has the following on Side 1:  1. Trapped - Elkie Brooks; 2.
I'm Flash - Alice Cooper; 3. Country Cooking - Jim Dandy; 4. What's
Happening - James Dewar.
...and these on side 2:  5. Space Pirates - Alice Cooper; 6. Sacrifice
- Elkie Brooks; 7. To The Chop (to the tune of that oldie "At the
Hop"!) - John Entwistle; 8. Supersnatch - Frankie Miller; 9.  Blast
Off - Jim Dandy; 10. Trapped (reprise) - Eddie Jobsen.

If nobody knows anything, I'll write to Chrysalis.  In either case,
I'll let y'all know what I found out, because the one tape I have is
worth buying (even at "normal" prices).
[  Please respond to Rich directly, not SF-LOVERS.  --  Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 1219-EDT
From: DAVE PORTER AT BERGIL
Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT BERGIL c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Daleks

MARKT at MIT-XX suggests that "Daleks Invade Earth 2150" might have
been the pilot for the first BBC TV series. Sorry, but the daleks were
not invented until quite a while (can't remember exactly how long, the
series has been running for so many years now; since 1963 I think, can
anyone remember?) after Dr. Who started.

The film was produced quite some time after the daleks appeared on TV,
in an attempt to cash in on the popularity of the intelligent
saltshakers.  In fact, I seem to remember there were two Dr. Who
films, and I think that "Daleks Invade ..." was probably the second
one.

I don't think Peter Cushing made a very good job of his role as the
Doctor, but the "older and serious" pose was how the Doctor was
portrayed on TV at the time, by William Hartnell. There have been five
Doctors to date, all with remarkably different personalities. Arranged
in order of appearance:

        William Hartnell
        Patrick Troughton
        John Pertwee
        Tom Baker
        the-young-vet-whose-name-escapes-me

/dave/

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 17:26 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Thorne Smith [V4 #79]

I found Earl <Boebert.SCOMP>'s mention of Smith's "Turnabout"
interesting, since it bear obvious similarities to the last Star Trek
episode, "Turnabout Intruder".  I'd never heard of the Smith story,
and have never seen anything in the Star Trek literature giving any
credit to Smith for the idea or title or whatever.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 11-SEP-1981 21:55
From: KRYPTN::GENTRY
Reply-to: "KRYPTN::GENTRY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Names

For your amusement:

        While at Mystic Seaport recently, I saw a sailboat (approx.
35 foot) that bore the name "Luke Seawalker".

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 14:58:28-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!cires!harkins at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!cires!harkins c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
re: Lynn Gold's question about Shakespeare's "...Verona"

an opinion: if anything, this "comedy" is PRO-semitic in much the same
way as Leon Uris' Exodus, in that the reader's sympathy is clearly
intended to be swayed in favor of the Jew; if you don't believe this
of Verona, I would suggest a careful re-reading.  Shakespeare, I would
assert, was just overdoing it to make his point, ie, sarcasm, irony or
whatever... ernie p.s. this play is also the origin of the phrase
"pound of flesh" what has all this to do with s-f??  beats me

------------------------------

Date:  6 Oct 1981 1032-MDT
From: David Kohrn <OPER.KOHRN at UTAH-20>
Subject: Re: Prejudice in literature throughout the ages

   The play in which Shylock got screwed was "The Merchant of Venice",
not "Two Gentlemen of Verona".  Unfortunately this play is considered
by many to be a great classic, and was even taught in my high school.
It is unfortunate, but because Shakespeare wrote it, it automatically
earned a place with his other works (most of which ARE great
classics).
   Actually, except for the unnecessary portrayal of Shylock as a
steriotypical Jew, it would be a great classic.  He would have been
just as effective as a greedy person had he not been Jewish.

        As this is not SF, though, I'll quit here.

                        David Kohrn

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1981 11:19:50-EDT
From: deryl at CCA-UNIX (Deryl Humphrey)
Subject: Shakespear

        Lynn, you asked if TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA was anti-semitic or
if it was great literature.  I belive that it is great literature
because Shylock can be any ethnic or no be ethnic at all.  The value
of the play is that Shylock represents the stereotypical gready
person.  I have seen many performances of TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA
where the director chose to down play the ethnic-ness of Shylock.
        Shakespear also has a number of dated jokes in his plays,
however we can still enjoy his plays.  The mark of a great writer is
that, although there are bound to be dated references within a work,
the plot is interesting and has general appeal long after the work was
written.
        The proof of Shakespear is that you can perform any of his
plays today, and set them in any setting you would like.  Romeo and
Juliet has been set in the framework of New York City in the 1950's
(West Side Story).  You still have a sad tale of two young people from
different walks of life, who fall in love with each other against the
wishes of their friends.  It still ends in tragedy.
        So to conclude I repeat that TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA is not
anti-semitic rather great literature.  Because if it is anti-semitic
then it would be imposible have Shylock do, say, or be anything but a
jew for the play to work.
                                -deryl

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1981 15:00:18-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs (John Hobson)
Reply-to: "ihuxo!hobs c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Re: Anti-semitism in Shakespeare

In SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #80, Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE> asks:
        Is anyone out there familiar with Shakespeare's TWO GENTLEMEN
        OF VERONA, where Shylock (a Jew) got screwed in the end, and
        the play was billed as one of his "comedies" ("comedy"
        referring only to any play which had a "happy" ending)?

        Is this Anti-Semitic (Anti-Jewish, if you prefer) literature
        or is this a great classic?

Yes, I am familiar with TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA, and I am even more
familiar with THE MERCHANT OF VENICE, which is the play actually
referred to (I was in a student production of tMoV [SFL acronyms
strike again] in my senior year in college).  It is an anti-semitic
play, but not as bad as one of Shakespeare's main sources, Marlowe's
THE JEW OF MALTA.  The villianous Jew in tJoM has no redeeming
qualities, whereas Shakespeare does make it abundantly clear that
Shylock, while not an admirable character, has been greviously wronged
by Antonio (the Christian "merchant" of the title) "And why?  Because
I am a Jew.  Hath not a Jew eyes?...When you prick us, do we not
bleed? And when you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"  It seems to me
that while Shakespeare was conforming to the ant-semetic prejudices of
his day, he really portrays the anti-semites as really no better than
the Jews are portrayed.  Portia, in fact, obviously takes no pleasure
in the fact that Shylock has been defeated, even though she was the
one who did it.  BTW, I am Jewish on my mother's side.

Also, "comedy" properly does mean something with a happy ending.  The
obvious example is Dante's DIVINE COMEDY, which ends with Dante seeing
the glory of God in heaven (the "beatific vision" which is the most
important part of the Catholic conception of heaven), and which
doesn't have a single chuckle in it.

                                John

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1981 15:00:56-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs (John Hobson)
Reply-to: "ihuxo!hobs c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: origins of left and right

DJ Molny (ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny) says
        menlo70!hao!woods has the right revolution, but the wrong
        origin.  The terms "left" and "right" gained political
        significance in Paris, where liberals hung out on the left
        bank of the Seine, and conservatives hung out on the right.
        Unfortunately, I don't remember if left and right are
        determined by facing upstream or downstream...  [ downstream
        if I remember correctly - Jim ]

I was always told that the term came from the seating arrangements in
the Parliament building.  BTW, it is facing downstream.

                                                John

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 81 21:18:46-EDT (Tue)
From: J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #80

About Left an Right:

        The left and right banks of the Seine are determined facing
downstream (East, in the city).  Also, the terms could also refer to
the fact that almost ALL of the pre-revolutionary French Gov't
buildings, (Including the Louvre Palace, where the king resided in
those times), are on the right bank, and the Assemblee Nationale
(French Congress), is on the left, almost totally isolated amongst
universities and avant garde theaters.  (I assume that the left bank
had the same political significance at the time of the revolution,
before the AN was built?)

        Incidentally, the French President still resides in a palace
on the right bank of the Seine, (the Eleysee palace).

                                        -Joe Pistritto-

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 13:12:43-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: origins of left and right

   I've never heard the Seine being offered as a definition; the Left
Bank area ("Rive Gauche") is an artistic hangout but not a political
one.  The definition by sides of the legislative chamber is one I've
seen in several sources.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Oct 1981 1250-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: left and right (Why in SF?)

Greg Woods did indeed have the wrong term for the French Revolution
terrorists -- they were Jacobins, not Jacobians.  This discussion
needs some kind of tie-in to SF -- I submit that the Jacobins were all
clones of Luke Skywalker.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 0945-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: Left and Right

DJ is wrong about left and right; it was the seating arrangements in
the National Assembly after the revolution (1789 et seq. for those of
you who went to MIT) that gave rise to the terms.  In addition there
was the "Mountain"; these were those who seated themselves high up in
the back seats (the original assembly room was a converted tennis
court).

On the other hand, perhaps this discussion is better suited to POLI-
SCI?

        Dave

[ Yes, indeed it is.  POLI-SCI is another digest concerned with
  (what else?) Political Science issues.  Submissions go to POLI-SCI
  at MIT-AI, requests to POLI-SCI-REQUEST at MIT-AI.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #82
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 OCT 1981 0652-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #82
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
          SF TV - Dr. Who & "Star Trek: Turnabout Intruder",
     SF Books - Generic Books,  SF Music - A Little Bit of Filk,
               Random Topics - Shakespeare and Racism,
               SF Topics - SF Universes as D&D Worlds &
                 Same Scene from Multiple Viewpoints
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10/08/81 17:24:16
From: JGA@MIT-MC
Subject: Daleks

I was eight years old and living in Britain in 1963, when Dr. Who
appeared.  The Daleks appeared in episode 2.  They were the first, and
most popular foes that the Doctor has ever faced.  I remember buying
dozens of miniature (about 1.5 in tall) plastic Daleks.  They had a
ball bearing in their base which allowed them to slide convincingly
down ramps and the like.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 1981 2033-PDT
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow
Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL
Subject: Generic Books?!


    Weekly PAPERBACK column
    By Peggy Constantine
    (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    Are you ready for this? "No-frills" books! Yes, generic books,
like no-name cornflakes at the A&P. Egad! You won't be able to miss
them when they come from Jove in November for $1.50 each. There will
be four, each covered in stark white with black lettering. No titles
or authors. Just 64 basic pages in each genre - Western, Science
Fiction, Romance or Mystery, plus ingredients (Science Fiction is
"Complete with Everything: Aliens, Galaxies, Space Cadets, Robots,
Time Travel, One Plucky Girl.")
    All this might seem a giggle, but don't laugh. Someday the notion
may be taken seriously. The "no frills" idea could attract readers
to low-priced books without fancy covers and advertising hoopla, but
with quality content.
    Jove bought the idea from New York literary agent Susan Ann
Trotter, who made mockups of each book and hired the authors - two
writers and two editors whose contracts assure them anonymity forever
- to grind them out.
    Rena Wolner, publisher and vice president of Berkeley and Jove,
loved the idea. "We think we're putting fun into the industry," she
said.
    Trotter thought fun was the point, too, at first.
    "We initially thought the idea would be tongue-in-cheek. The
manuscripts do have some amusing elements. What Western have you read
lately that begins, 'Meanwhile, back at the ranch....'?"
    But Trotter thinks generic books have a future beyond novelty. She
has, she says, been besieged by inquiries about them. She says she
thinks the book industry has gone overboard with marketing frills in
recent years.
    "Publishing is topsy-turvy now. There aren't many blockbusters.
So publishers take books of medium worth and package them. They make
every effort to attract readers with the physical style of
presentation. Readers do respond to certain things on paperback
jackets, so jackets have become the most elaborate and expensive items
in the business.
    "I had not contemplated such an enormous response to these books.
Now I want to see this thing work, believe me. Other people are very
eager. They have come with ideas. We are talking about doing
non-fiction books."
    While Jove won't give up its expensive cover art, Wolner is frank
about gloom in the book industry. "There is moaning and groaning.
Unit totals (sales of individual books) haven't been increasing.
We've been forced to raise cover prices. Those prices have obscured
the fact that unit sales are pretty flat. We're concerned about
that."
    Printing and paper costs for the average paperback come to 22
cents a copy, Wolner said. The "no-frills" books cost half that. But
costs of reprint rights, cover art, publicity, author's tours and
distribution push a typical paperback's price tag to $3.95.
    Wolner does not believe "no frills" will help the industry. She
says she's not even sure Jove will make money on the books. "We're
hoping we are not going to lose any. Essentially, we just felt the
no-frills idea is attractive and we're supportive of it. The response
from booksellers has been beyond our expectations."
    Trotter says she's read three of the four books, and "they're
good.  They have absolutely everything they are supposed to have as
examples of the category." Wolner said she read one and liked it. (I
haven't seen one yet, so can't advise you on its literary quality, or
lack thereof.)
    Each book's first printing will consist of 150,000 copies. "We're
being cautious," Wolner said. "If the public reacts as well as
booksellers have, we might consider doing more. We hope generic books
are bigger than we originally thought."
    Now Trotter says she's thinking of no-frills movies. "But we
haven't figured out how to make one," she admits.

    New originals

    "Fate and Dreams," by Leslie Arlen (Jove, $2.95). Part 3 of the
Borodin saga, focusing on the beautiful ballerina who stayed in
Russia after the revolution.

    New reprints

    "Fair Warning," by George E. Simpson and Neal R. Burger (Dell,
$3.25). It's the summer of 1945, and the United States wants to warn
Japan that the atom bomb is falling. Intelligent spy story.
    "Going to Extremes," by Joe McGinniss (NALPlume, $6.95). Two
fascinating years of mushing around Alaska with the author of "The
Selling of the President."
    "The Writer's Quotation Book," by James Charton (Penguin, $3.95).
Pocket-sized book of quotations by the famous and not-so-famous.
    "The Dictionary of First Names," by Alfred J. Kolatch (Perigee,
$6.95). What names mean and their origins.

------------------------------

Date: 09/22/81 23:44:39
From: DP at MIT-ML
Subject: A little Filk...

  The Designer

Words and Music by Jordin Kare
(based on the anonymous "poem" of the same name)


       C                G
The Designer sat at his drafting board.
  C                      G
A wealth of facts in his head was stored,
     C           G         C      G
Like what can be done on a radial drill,
  C      G          C        G
A turret lathe or a vertical mill,
    C         G        C     G
But above all things a knack he had
   Am                 G         Am
Of driving machinists completely mad.

So he mused as he thoughtfully scratched his beam
"Just how can I make this thing hard to machine?
If I make this body perfectly straight
The job would surely come out first rate,
But that would be easy to cut and bore.
It never would make a machinist sore."

"So I'll throw in a compound angle there,
And a couple of tapers to make them swear.
Now brass would do for this little gear,
But that's to easy to carve, I fear.
So just to make a machinist squeal
I'll have him machine it from tungsten steel."

"And I'll put the holes that hold the cap
Down underneath, where they can't be tapped
Now if they can make it they'll do it by luck
'Cause it can't be held with a dog or a chuck,
And it can't be drilled, nor planed, nor ground,
So I think my design is completely sound."

The designer sat back. His plan he surveyed:
The screwiest thing he had ever made.
He signed his name with a line so thin,
Then put down his pencil and started to grin.
He shouted in glee, "Success at last!
I've designed a part that can't even be cast!"

Copyright Jordin Kare. Reprinted with permission of the author.

                                        enjoy,
                                        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1981 17:14:46-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny at Berkeley
Subject: Prejudice Throughout the Ages
Reply-to: "ubvax!ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>

Shakespeare's TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA is both a great classic comedy
and a prejudicial piece of literature.  The Jew, Shylock, is a
heartless, greedy moneylender who demands a pound of flesh from the
hero (whose name escapes me) when he defaults on a loan.  The name
Shylock has even come to mean loan shark.

Jews in the 1600's were often moneylenders (mostly because Christians
thought it was a dirty business... Jesus throwing the moneylenders out
of the temple, and all that), and were therefore natural targets for
abuse.  (In modern times, we have our friendly IRS people.)
Shakespeare was simply reflecting the unfair attitudes of his times.
The play is considered a comedy because the hero is spared from his
fate, gets the girl, and frustrates the villain, Shylock.

If you can watch the play without taking the Anti-Semitic remarks
personally, it's a very enjoyable comedy.

------------------------------

Date: 8 October 1981 16:28 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Shakespeare

To clear up some confusion:

The Two Gentlemen of Verona is a contemporary musical adaptation of
the original Merchant of Venice.  To supply the necessary SF tie in, I
would add that Yoda can be heard to whistle a tune with distinct
resemblance to one of the songs in tTGoV.

------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1981 1142-MDT
From: Dudley Irish <IRISH at UTAH-20>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #81


        Not being a Shaksperian leftest sexist born again Trekie I do
not recall what the last episode of Star Trek was.  Could Woods at
PARC-MAXC clarify?  Also I believe that the terms left and right were
originally applied to the hands or, more precisely, the bilateral
symmetry displayed by most of the higher animals on earth (perhaps a
hint to get back to earth, space cadets).

                                Yours, very tired of non-SF flaming,
                                                Dudley Irish

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 1742-EDT
From: EIFFEL::FRANCIS
Reply-to: "EIFFEL::FRANCIS c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SF(antasy) and Fantasy games

  Mention of "Mazes and Monsters" and "The Egbert Incident", together
with the suggestion that the "realities" created in various SF &
fantasy series could be used as a background for other stories
(instead of being junked), prompts me to throw in the following
comments :- As a combination SF/D&D freak, I always read SF&F with my
eyes open to the possibility of using the SF universe as a venue for a
D&D campaign. So far the ideas I am toying with are :-

   o  [Obligatory first] "Thieves World" & "Tales from the Vulgar
      Unicorn"

       A nice location, and lots of interesting characters.  Robert
      Asprin designed this as a multi-creator universe, and I'm sure
      it has been used already.  It suffers from one major drawback,
      however, in that just about every D&D player has read it, and
      knows what to expect!

   o  The "Coromande" universe created by Brian Daley.

       This is my current favorite [possibly because I'm still
      reading the second book]. It has all that a D&Der could want in
      the way of weird creatures, powerful mages, and medieval
      military technology, and has vast amounts of "background"
      historical material inserted at various points throughout the
      books.  It is also firmly based on the premise of alternate
      realities, which makes a much more open-ended campaign.

   o  "Xanth" created by Piers Anthony.

      A universe which is compatible with Coromande [or at the least
      only a small probability shift away]. I feel it is best to
      extract a part of multiple universes to create a good game
      venue, as otherwise most players will be too familiar with the
      background, and the game loses the element of surprise.

Other books/series/characters which deserve a mention are :-

   o  Harold Shea (The "Compleat Enchanter" of de Camp & Pratt).  This
      guy could turn up anywhere/anywhen/anyif, and create fun if
      properly used.

   o  "The Incredible Umbrella" by Marvin Kaye. A nice device for
      getting a "known fictional" scenario.  Obvious possibilities
      besides those used in the book would be Looking-Glass and/or
      Wonderland.

   o  "Circle of Light" by ????. A series which I expected to get a
      mention in the recent discussions. In my view it gets neither
      better or worse over the four books. It's not great, but the
      non-human characters are well done, even if the plot is somewhat
      tired and the action dull.

   o  All right, I suppose I must include Tolkien.  Enough Said.

   o  Michael Moorcock's plethora of trilogies & tetralogies.

   o  Randall Garrett's "Too Many Magicians"

   o  Larry Niven's "The Magic Goes Away".

   o  "Known Space" - great possibilities for a high-tech "Dungeon".

 This has gone on long enough for one submission, but I'm sure I've
omitted many "obvious" candidates.  However, I'm also sure the
omissions will soon be rectified by proponents of each slighted
milieu.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1981 17:12:55-PDT
From: ihnss!houxf!harpo!chico!esquire!nrh at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihnss!houxf!harpo!chico!esquire!nrh c/o"
           <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Same scene from multiple viewpoints

This device (including the same scene in several books and showing it
from the various protagonist's viewpoints) is used by Michael Moorcock
in his Eternal Champion books.

The basis for all these books is that there is one person doomed to be
re-incarnated whenever a hero of great stature is needed by the forces
of Law. (Not bureaucratic Law).  Another tenet of the books is a sort
of mutual shadowing -- what happens in one of the universes has some
impact in them all.

In the scene, three of Moorcock's heroes -- Corum in the Scarlet Robe,
Elric of Melnibone, and a third who has no real name, but is cursed to
remember all of this incarnations (including Corum & Elric) are
brought together to rescue Jhary-a-Conel from a sorcerous tower that
travels through all of their realms.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #83
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 OCT 1981 0709-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #83
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 10 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:

                   Administrivia - Special Digest,
       Random Topics - Shakespeare and Racism & SF and Sexism
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22:20pm  Friday, 9 October 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: Special Digest

This special issue is devoted entirely to our random topics.  No other
messages on these topics are presently pending for distribution, and
there seems little excuse to change this situation.  i.e. I think we
should all consider these topics closed.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1981 1030-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: More Pedantry (snore)

"Two Gentlemen of Verona" is a completely different play from "The
Merchant of Venice".  They are both by Shakespeare.  "Two Gentlemen of
Verona" appeared in a broadway musical version recently.  The recent
"Shakespeare Plays" version of "Merchant of Venice" directed by
Jonathan Miller was (according to him) the most faithful to the
original in a long time.  Miller's Shylock is a definite villain, and
the anti-semitic content of the play is not minimized.  Shylock even
has a stereotype "Jewish" accent.  In his afterword to the play Miller
and the actor who played Shylock discuss how previous directors,
embarassed by the play, have tried to tone down the characterization,
or make Shylock a hero, or whatever.  (Jonathan Miller is Jewish, by
the way, as is the actor who played Shylock).

Face it, Shakespeare was a creature of his time, and "The Merchant of
Venice" is contains an incredibly unsympathetic Jew.  Whether it makes
Shakespeare an anti-semite I don't know.  It does not detract from the
fact that it's a great play.

Just because our ancestors did not share our enlightened views does
not make every work of literature they produced worthless.
Ideological purity in literature is an asinine idea.

        Dave
------------------------------

Date:  9 Oct 1981 1047-MDT
From: Art Evans <Evans at UTAH-20>
Subject: the money CHANGERS in the temple

I know this isn't SF, but there is a need for accuracy here.

It was not money LENDERS that Jesus threw out of the temple but money
CHANGERS.  People came to the temple from all over for the purpose of
offering sacrifices.  Since there were complex ritual requirements on
the animals to be sacrificed, the usual approach was to purchase an
animal at the temple.  The money changers performed the same function
you see at any international airport -- they changed one form of
currency for another.

What Jesus was objecting to was not the practice of animal sacrifice
as such (of which money changing was a necessary adjunct) but rather
the practice of sinning most of the time and then attempting to make
up for it by buying an expensive sacrifice.  (There is a long
prophetic tradition for this view -- see, e.g., Amos.)  Jesus was just
following (or, I guess, originating) the technique practiced to this
day by activists of getting lots of publicity for his cause by
performing an act guaranteed to attract attention.

Art Evans

------------------------------

Date:  9 October 1981 1310-EDT (Friday)
From: Marc.Donner at CMU-10A
Subject:  Merchant of Venice

I hate to keep this non-SF topic going any longer, but the depths of
ignorance displayed by ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny at Berkeley in #82 were so
deep that I feel compelled to respond.

As has been mentioned before, the Shakespeare play about the Jew
Shylock is "Merchant of Venice", not "Two Gentlemen of Verona".  MoV
is not considered to be a comedy at all, while TGoV is.  [ MoV is
traditionally classed as a comedy since it is not considered a history
or a tragedy.  -- Jim ]

Whoever you are, please read a bit of history.  The reason that Jews
in most of European history were consigned to such things as
moneylending was that for most of that time they were forbidden by law
from owning land!  In addition, Christians were forbidden from
charging money for the use of their money (usury originally meant
charging anything at all, not its current meaning of 'unconscionably
high interest').  Hence, Jews were not permitted to accumulate the
fruits of their labor in any other way than as cash.  The consequences
of this policy were not lost on the rulers ... they benefitted from
the availability of this money.  To make matters worse, Jews had a
very special status under the law ... it was often not illegal to
commit crimes against their persons and property (and even when they
were protected by the law, enforcement was not very enthusiastic).
Shakespeare's audiences were not as ignorant of this state of affairs
as most of us seem to be.  In MoV, Shylock loses both the daughter he
loves and a substantial amount of money (to understand this, translate
it into "a piece of his farm").  This would be a tragedy for any man,
Christian or Jew, and Shakespeare makes this apparent.  Our
perspective on this man's loss is colored by our perception of him as
a rich man, hence not a good man.  The value of a farmer's farm today
may be several millions of dollars, but we don't think of him as
wealthy.  Shylock could not own real property (no house, no farm,
...), hence his 'farm' was his cash.  One might ask, 'why not work as
a laborer or tradesman?'  Many Jews in Europe in those days did just
that, very few were well enough off to subsist on moneylending.
Unfortunately, Jews were not welcome in the labor force ("What, you
have a Jew working in your bakery!  I won't eat your bread!" ... don't
laugh - this was real).  And even if he had worked as a laborer or
tradesman, no reward for hard work is possible ...  he could never
become a farmer or landowner, never live in a house of his own (the
psychological value of this is incredible ... try it some time).

Marc Donner

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 1752-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: SF And *ism

        Thank you Walt Haas.  I think you said 95% of what I've been
thinking as I've followed this debate.  What I find interesting (as a
social scientist) is people's reaction to *ist art and literature.  I
don't watch performances of Merchant of Venice (not Two Gentlemen of
Verona) because it is anti-Jewish (yes, I know the arguments about the
context, the time it was written, etc.)  and propagates a) untrue, b)
degrading, and c) dangerous stereotypes about Jews.  Similarly, I
don't read Gor books; I don't watch reruns of Birth of a Nation and a
bunch of much later Hollywood productions either.  When I discover
that something I am paying attention to is *ist art, I stop.  Period.
Politics is something else.  I read *ist political works to better
understand the phenomenon of *ism.  But again, I am a social
scientist.  I would expect that someone professionally interested in
literature to do exactly the opposite.  What I understand, but totally
disrespect, is why people read *ist literature for any reason other
than to study it.  Generally I find that I don't like such people.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 7 October 1981 0200-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Gary Feldman at CMU-10A
Subject: sexism and literature (I couldn't hold back any longer)

Many feminist writers define sexism differently from the popular view
of sex discrimination.  Specifically, sexism is defined as the
oppression of women by society, as well as other forms of oppression
that are used to reinforce the values attached to sexist models.
While many people will disagree with this definition in ways
tangential to the current discussion, the relevant point is that any
action that has the effect of hurting women is labelled sexist.  Thus,
discrimination in sexual preference is acceptable, while a law
preventing both male and female minors from obtaining contraceptive
devices is sexist, since girls cannot escape the risks of being
pregnant.

This relates to literature when we realize the potential propaganda
value of fiction.  Works such as "Animal Farm" and "1984" are clearly
intended to express a point of view, and we make no bones about it.
Works such as "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" are perhaps more subtle,
yet the message eventually comes through.  I am sure that many people,
myself included, developed opinions on libertarianism through
Heinlein's writing.  Likewise, I am sure that adolescents can readily
pick up sexist views through literature.  Science fiction is an
especially sensitive field, precisely because so many fans are so
young.  It can't be right to assume that they are all so astute as to
be immune to such influence.

Note that authors cannot be absolved from their actions through
disclaimers.  Even if the author totally disagrees with views, the
author still shares complicity in the spread of those views.  Imagine
a German writer in 1937 saying "Of course I believe that Jews have
equal rights.  But since the people want to read books that state that
Jews are evil and should be exterminated, those are the sort of books
I am going to write."  The writing remains oppressive, and the author
has committed an act of oppression by distributing such writings.

Still, a discussion of a work based on some limited set of literary
values ought to be acceptable, provided that the appropriate
boundaries are noted at the beginning of the discussion.  Thus the
study of Shakespeare's anti-Semitic work (which I believe was
"Merchant of Venice", not "Two Gentlemen... ") is ok, if we first
point out that their were no Jews in England during Shakespeare's
lifetime, and thus he was incapable of having a fair viewpoint.  Such
pedantry may seem like a nuisance, but it is far less serious than an
error of omission.

   Gary

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 81 20:45:48-EDT (Tue)
From: J C Pistritto <jcp.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #79

        Does anyone have a current address/location for John Norman, I
think it might actually be interesting to get an opinion "from the
horse's mouth", so to speak on the GOR/Sexism issue.  This may be
difficult, I have no idea how much mail he gets about GOR, but I bet
it is not insignificant.

                                        -Joe Pistritto-

[  Please respond to Joe directly, not to the digest.  Also please
   remember NOT to mention SF-LOVERS as the forum for this discussion
   to people outside the existing readership community.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1981 18:55:26-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley (wm leler)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!wm c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: university of north carolina at chapel hill
Subject: the great sf-lovers novel

I propose the following general theme to be used as the basis for a
science fiction book to be serially collectively written by sf-lovers:

In the near future, on earth, several social changes are taking place.
Macho, as a life-style, has gone to its inevitable end, i.e. guns are
readily accesible and often used (recognize this one?), and all the
violent types are killing each other off.  Interestingly, hardly
anyone not invested in the macho lifestyle is getting killed, since
they tend to hide in their homes safe behind dead bolts, and NEVER
venture to the rough side of town or go to bars.  Meanwhile, the tooth
and nail theory of civilization has been disproven by several
sociologists (I knew they would be good for something someday) and
that in fact humans, like most animals, are basically pacifist, and
that it is socialization that makes us violent, i.e. watching TV,
living in big cities, hawaiian music, and all those other evils that
we have all known about.  Since many of the people who are tending to
survive thereabouts are fairly timid anyway, people start being
anti-socialized.  For example, talking starts being unfashionable
(execpt to a few macho-types still hanging around).  This reverse
socialization is helped along by the fact that it is fairly common to
work at home using your personal computer terminal (cottage industry
style).  So we start backsliding, but not in the same way as, say,
Planet-of-the-Apes devolution.  Instead, much personal contact is
through the personal terminal, with spoken language, along with much
of its non-verbal gesturing and power tactics, becoming extinct.
Instead, most power kicks are gained by reading sexist sf books and
then participating in long, drawn out discussions about the nature of
sexual differences.

>From the volume of submissions to sf-lovers in the last week, there
should be no problem finding volunteers to write this turkey!

                                        wm

------------------------------

Date:  6 October 1981 02:04 edt
From:  JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Content of the list

(none of this message pertains to SF, but rather to SF-LOVERS)

I've really enjoyed the discussion of sexism in SF.  But I'm irritated
at how people seem to misrepresent what others have said.  For
example, Polucci does NOT hold that all new wave SF is anti-sexist, he
only names a few writers who are anti-sexist, and certainly never even
calls them new wave, let alone proclaim similar merits for others of
any genre.

(As for discussion topics, I'm much more tired of seeing SFL devoted
mostly to SF movies.  I almost wish there was a separate digest
devoted soley to recent SF Movies.  Then I wouldn't have to wade
through pages and pages of discussions about Y wing bombers, Mr.
Spock, and other such lowest common denominator SF.)

[ Unfortunately, you can only get what you give.  If more people would
  send in submissions about other topics, then they would appear as
  well.  SF movies are a proper topic for this digest, but they should
  not be the only one.  -- Jim ]

I don't think writers should only write about worlds I'd like to live
in, and I don't think that only Utopias are 'politically correct'.  If
what I said about liking politically conscious SF was interpreted that
way, that was wrong.

On the other hand, we have 'Gor'.  I haven't read any of it, but for
the purpose of discussion, if we *assume* that Gor characters really
put forth the sexist views described above, do these works do us any
real harm?  (It doesn't matter whether the author himself holds these
views, although I can't imagine anybody cynical enough to write such
things if s/he believed the opposite).  I think the answer is a
limited yes.  The attitudes in the books spread I think into the minds
of the readers.  Not for all readers, maybe even only to a few.  One
can imagine real good being done - read this book, an exageration of
existing views, and begin thinking about the real situation here.  I
guess I'm saying that if you think about the topic, the book does
good.  If you just enjoy it the book does harm, because you assimilate
its attitudes.

Mind you! I don't propose to censor anybody.  I'm grateful for the
discussion, since I know now that I probably wouldn't benefit from
reading Gor.

 jim davis

P.S. thanks to Lauren for the succint precise comment on social stress
and human liberation.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #84
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 OCT 1981 0932-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #84
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 11 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:
            SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title,
               SF TV - "Star Trek: Turnabout Intruder",
       SF Movies - Star Trek,  Random Topics - Right and Left,
                SF Topics - 1981 Hogu award winners &
     Series (Darkover/Technic Civilization/GOR/Vampires/Retief) &
           Unfinished Books (Pynchon) & Women in Science &
                      SF Universes as D&D Worlds
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 15:15:46-PDT
From: alice!ark at Berkeley
Reply-to: "alice!ark in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Here's the plot... What's the title?

Anyone out there remember the name and author of a short story with
the following plot:  An otherwise ordinary man discovers that unusual
things are happening to and around him.  These things are always
\possible/, but extremely unlikely.  For example, he drops a deck of
cards on the floor from several feet up.  As expected, about half of
them land face up, but the face-up cards are all red.  Or he drops a
handful of coins.  They bounce and then land in a stack.  He tries
again.  This time they land in a straight line, edges touching.  He
drops a pencil.  It lands balanced on its point.  And so on.  At one
point he is put in jail.  He escapes by virtue of the jailers having
forgotten to lock the door of his cell and everyone happening to be
elsewhere as he walks out.  Does this ring a bell?

------------------------------

Date: 9 October 1981 14:57 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Turnabout/Turnabout Intruder

"Turnabout Intruder," the last Star Trek episode, had the same premise
as "Turnabout," by Thorne Smith: a male/female pair have their psyches
switched so the male mind is in the female body and vice versa.  The
similarity in title/premise leads me to believe the Trek premise is a
lift, especially considering that the Smith book was long out of print
at the time of writing the script.  Maybe somebody can ask around at
the next Trek convention.  Also, has anybody ever seen the movie made
of "Turnabout"?  And does anybody know if Smith was male or female?  I
guess female, based on the relish with which the reactions of the male
mind are described when it discovers that its female body is pregnant.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 9 October 1981 08:51-EDT
From: "Patrick Jaderborg, Sgt." <INSANE at MIT-AI>
Subject: Turnabout

  Wasn't Turnabout put out as a comedy TV series for awhile? (about 2
years ago, I think) It was supposed to be a contemporary comedy about
a man and wife who had their "roles" exchanged by a minor god
(whatever) .
  The series died a rather quiet death...
--INSANE

------------------------------

Date: 11 October 1981 03:57-EDT
From: Steve Kudlak <FFM at MIT-MC>
Subject: Startrek Another Motion Picture


I heard that there is a sequel to Startrek The motion Picture that was
planned for release in 1983, however there were severe malfunctions in
the double-talk generators. This is know to be almost uniformly fatal
to science fiction movies.

Have fun
Sends Steve

------------------------------

Date: 09/20/81 19:00:24
From: DP at MIT-ML
Subject: 1981 Hogu award winners

  The Hogu is awarded each year to the worst example in each category.
The award is given at the worldcon Rankquet, which is traditionaly
held at a nearby McDonald's.  Anyone is eligible to vote, however the
award committee does not allow the ballot results to greatly influence
its decision. The award takes the form of a charred block of virgin
pine, symbolic of a rocket's takeoff.

The awards:

Best New Feud - Chicon committee vs. Itself

The DeRoach Award - Foglio's Faux Pas; (refers to the cartoons done
for the Chicago bid)

Best Hoax Award - People's choice Oscar Awards.

The Aristole Award - Janet Cooke's 8 year old heroin addict

Biggest Turkey (class one, Indiana) John Thiel
(class two, anywhere else) Harry Andruschak

Best Religious Hoax - Moral Majority

Best Professional Hoax - Rev. Jerry Falwell

Worst Fanzine Title - Intermediate Boson Vectors (I think that is the
real title transposed, but that is how it is printed on the ballot)

Best Dead Writer (must be living to qualify) - John Norman

Best Hoax Convention - Scandinavia in '83

Bagelbash Award - Jodi Foster Pen Pal Club

Best Has Been - Bani Sadr

Best Polish Pope Joke - Why is there no ice in the Vatican? The last
Pope died with the recipe.

Free For All - "nuke the unborn whales"

Most Desired Gafiation, Winner gets the Mid-Atlantic Fan fund (pays
for the charter of a plane to the middle of the Atlantic, where the
recipient of the award is let off) - Harry Andruschak

Mixed Media:

Superman II putridest scene - Lois to Clark: "That's three teeth I
chipped on that thing."

Shiners from The Shining - Daddy, the elevator's leaking again.

Most Boring Moment of Buck Rogers - All of it.

  Unfortunately(?) I cannot read the rest of my notes, nor can I find
the marked up ballot I had. If anyone else was there, could you send
in the rest of the results, and/or explanations of the reasons for
some of the more obscure categories?

                                        Enjoy,
                                        Jeff....

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1981 23:39:39-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny at Berkeley
re: left & right

Well...  I may be wrong about the origins, but if I ever visit Paris,
I know which bank I'll sit on...


                                                -- DJ

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1981 16:03:46-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Series -- Darkover
Bradley's Darkover series is one of the few that's gotten *much*
better as it goes along -- she herself feels it's simply because she's
a more experienced writer now.  (As an aside, I would note that
despite the relatively sexist culture on Darkover (and in the early
books not contrasted with individually liberated women), Bradley
reports that most fans are female.)

Just picked up the latest one, "Sharra's Exile".  According to the
introductory blurb, it's a story in the same time frame as "Sword of
Aldones", one of the very early Darkover stories.  She finally decided
to write a new novel covering that time because she felt the earlier
one was quite poor, primarily because it was dreamed up when she was
15.

------------------------------

Date:  9 Oct 1981 0150-PDT
From: Barry Eynon <CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Flandry Series

I guess I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Poul Anderson's Technic
Civilization Series' also. I guess I thought everyone was familiar
with them. (Yes, plural - there really are two, perhaps three distinct
time periods with large numbers of stories set in them: the Van
Rijn/Falkayn cycle in the time of the Polysotechnic League, THE YTHRI
and some other stories of the Time of Troubles, the Flandry series set
in the period of the end of the Empire. There are even a few stories
set during and after the Long Night.) The books I know of in the
Flandry series are:
        Ensign Flandry
        Flandry of Terra
        Agent of the Terran Empire
        A Circus of Hells
        A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows
        A Stone in Heaven

The first three contain the bulk of the Flandry stories published in
the 50's and 60's, the latter three are novels published since 1970.
This listing is in rough chronological order. For a complete listing
of all the stories see Sandra Meisel's afterword to A STONE IN HEAVEN.
  The early stories are pretty good, but my favorite by far is A
KNIGHT OF GHOSTS AND SHADOWS. I did not find A STONE IN HEAVEN to be
nearly as deep and it seemed much more according to "formula". I'll
reserve judgment on the trend of the series as a whole until any
further stories are in.

                                -Barry Eynon

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 1981 12:40:30-PDT
From: menlo70!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!zehntel!berry c/o " <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Vampires

For the record, C. Q. Yarbro has a fourth Ragoczy book out called
"Path of the Eclipse".  It is set in China around the time of Jenghiz
Khan.  I got my copy from the fine folks at the SF Book Club.
                -- Berry Kercheval

------------------------------

Date: 8 October 1981 17:59
From: STONED::LEWIS
Reply-to: "STONED::LEWIS c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Gor, Fem Astronomer, Yarbro, Pynchon, Retief & Call Me Suford

John Norman -

When I said that John Norman really believes his Gor philosophy I was
not merely attributing to him the philosophy in his works, I was
reporting his own statements made in person (although I did not get
them all first hand), at SF conventions in NY and, by report, IN CLASS
TO HIS STUDENTS!!!  He has a coterie that follows him around preaching
his word...

Now he is either an incredible actor with a dubious taste in humor and
is putting us all on (like that comic who does a Female Wrestling
Champion bit) or he is serious.  The existence of his book Imaginative
Sex (I'm not kidding, it really does exist) indicates he is serious.
This supposedly serious book did not sell nearly as well as his Gor
fantasies, so perhaps we have an indication that most of the people
who read him avidly enjoy Gor but don't believe in it as a real option
for human society (or not as a real option for sex...).

Personally, I like my sexual fantasies a little more intellectual.
Come to think of it, in most romances the female protagonist is
searching for a male who will recognize her as an individual and take
her seriously.  This reminds me of Hoylman's Postulate:  The statement
of an exception implies a rule.  (Doug Hoylman, informal publication;
his example was "We came in peace for all Mankind".)  It is certainly
my perception that few women are taken seriously by men (or even, God
help us, by other women) and then only because they demand to be.
This digression leads to -

Female Astronomers -

While I was at Harvard, Cecilia Paine-Gaposhkin was head of the
Astronomy department.  I have always been a bit vague on exactly what
she had done but it was clear to me that she was one tough lady and
her work was brilliant.  Unfortunately, her kids were also at Harvard
at that time and they tended to go on and on about how brilliant and
infallible she was.  That took the shine off a bit.

St. Germain (Yarbro's vampire) -

I relish Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's St Germain series.  The fourth book is
out:  The Path of the Eclipse.  The history is vivid, the writing is
very good. (Yes, I could stand less stuff about his small hands and
feet, too.  By the time we get to Roman times he is about average
height, by the way.)

Thomas Pynchon -
I remember having his The Journal of Albion Moonlight foisted on me
about 20 years ago.  I found it unreadable.  It was pretentious, full
of religious symbolism and written in a druggy stream-of-symbolic-
consciousness style that was VERY hard to take in a first person
narrative.  Albion Moonlight was so obviously a Christ figure it was
nauseating.  V. didn't seem any better.  So, I confess, it never
occurred to me that Gravity's Rainbow would be worth reading.  I'm
willing to change my mind, bit I'll need some convincing.

Retief -

I'm afraid Paul Schauble is right:  Diplomat at Arms hasn't been
anthologized.  I've tried to find it in my collection (which we keep
carefully cross indexed) and the only place I could find it is in its
original appearance in Amazing.  Its serious tone makes it a misfit in
the collections, I expect.

Picky Point -

I am not STONED at LEWIS, I am LEWIS at STONED our addressing
convention says your addressing convention is backwards.  Anyhow, I
prefer to be called

                                    - Suford

[ Sorry about that.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 10 October 1981 1303-EDT (Saturday)
From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A (C410SC60)
Subject: d&d in sf

I recently read Andre Norton's Quag Keep (DAW).  It is a story about
some d&d players who become their characters.  I though it would be
trash, but it turned out to be fairly interesting, and good adventure.
See you later,

-Steve

------------------------------

Date: 9 October 1981 1719-EDT (Friday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject: Fantasy Games based in SF

        In response to V4#82:

        There are many games on the market based on/inspired by
SF/Fantasy books, including Dungeons & Dragons. (See Appendix N -
Inspirational Reading, in the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide). Two notable
examples in the role-playing genre are "Stormbringer", marketed by
<name of company I've forgotten>, based on the Elric of Melnibone
universe, and highly praised by Moorcock in its advertising; and
"Darkover", marketed by Eon Products, obviously based on the Darkover
universe (though "Darkover" is technically a wargame, it has many
role-playing elements). There are also various RPG modules based on
specific books/series. AD&D's Deities & Demigods includes the Cthulhu
Mythos and the Melnibonean Mythos (from Lovecraft and Moorcock,
respectively), and I've heard of a Traveller scenario based on Vance's
"Planet of Adventure".  /DAC

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1981 0839-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)
Subject: "Mazes & Monsters" and D&D gaming

As inspired by Mike Urban's discussion of "Mazes and Monsters":
Regarding the incident of the students "playing D&D in the steam
tunnels" -- This whole thing has confused me since I first saw a
reference to it a long time ago.  As far as I ever knew (I am not a
gamer), D&D is a board or tabletop game; how can you play it among
steam tunnels?  Also, as a charter member of the WUASS (Washington
University Artificial Spelunkers' Society) back in the sixties, who
was exploring steam tunnels for years before D&D was ever marketed, I
resent these amateurs invading my territory!  Such explorations have
to be kept on a low profile, to avoid the impositions of
administrators creating offensive rules and regulations regarding the
tunnels (usually based on liability fears).  Such gamers screw it up
for us spelunkers!  Did they dress up in costumes and act out the
moves or what?

Will Martin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #85
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 OCT 1981 0854-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #85
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Story Query Answered & Thorne Smith &
             Series(Retief/X-Men/Comics/GOR) & Quag Keep,
                    SF Radio - Lord of the Rings,
       SF Topics - SF and Sexism & SF Universes as D&D Worlds,
                  Random Topics - The Money Changers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 20:43:06-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: story query

   "I Am a Nucleus" from late 50's GALAXY (reprinted in one of their
annual best-of's; I forget the author).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 2133-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: Answers...

Thorne Smith was a man.  He was born in 1892, died in 1934.  I am
reminded of Silverberg's comment (before the great Revelation) that
James Tiptree had to be a man because of the way he wrote...

"Diplomat at Arms" was anthologized in a non-Retief Laumer collection
(whose title, naturally, escapes me).  It was also in at least one
other collection (ditto).  I think it was the first Retief story,
which accounts for the utterly different tone as compared to the later
comedic-satiric-slapstick Retief.

        Dave

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 1538-PDT
From: Mark Peairs <csd.peairs at SU-SCORE>
Subject: S.F. Bay Area Radio Show


   KCSM (91 FM) is broadcasting the BBC radio dramatization of Lord of
the Rings.  The series started October 6th, episodes are broadcast
every Tuesday and Thursday at 7:30.  It seems like it will be an
excellent production.  There are 26 of the half-hour shows.  The
station has the rights for only one broadcast, so each will be played
only once.  I have not heard announcements for this series on any
other Bay Area public radio stations.
                                 Mark Peairs

------------------------------

Date: 7 October 1981 1127-PDT (Wednesday)
From: randvax!msf780!Stern (TOM STERN @ TRW)
Reply-to: "randvax!msf780!Stern c/o" <mike at UCLA-Security>
Subject: Comic Book Sexism

     In all fairness to the comics, they killed Phoenix in the X-MEN
comic because she destroyed an inhabited planet.  Because of this, Jim
Shooter, Editor-and-Mussolini of Marvel Comics decided she had to be
punished.  It was not a case of the writer fearing a woman character
more powerful than her male counterparts (as suggested by <TANG at
MIT-AI>).

    This is not to say that sexism is not present in comics.  It is
there in abundance (along with homophobia), mostly in Mr. Shooter's
books.

    The most blatant (almost GOR-ean) offense occurs in AVENGERS #200
when Ms. Marvel (of "THIS FEMALE FIGHTS BACK!"  fame) discovers she is
pregnant, without any memory of there being a father.

    The pregnancy comes to full term in two days, and the male
offspring develops into adulthood at an even-more-accelerated rate.
The offspring, Marcus, then relate the story of how he had originally
been born in Limbo, and could not leave under normal circumstances, so
he brought Ms. Marvel to his realm and used various brainwashing
devices to hypnotize her into loving him.  He then used other various
pieces of equipment to "implant his essence" within her, and return
her to Earth, so that he could be "born" there.

    <Whether this constitutes "rape" is a question that has been
discussed extensively in comic fandom.  At best it is personal
violation and subjugation (Not to mention assault with a friendly
weapon).>

    At the end of the story, Marcus is forced to return to Limbo, and
Ms. Marvel announces that, despite what happened, he is still both her
child and lover, and she wants to go back with him.  And the Avengers,
knowing that she was a victim of brainwashing, let her!

    There's a word for that:  it has 8 letters, two syllables, and is
cowboy for "WATCH YOUR STEP"!

    There are other examples of such things, not to mention the
attempted gang-rape of the HULK, but I'm not sure anyone here besides
me is interested in such things.

              Tom Stern

------------------------------

Date: 11 October 1981 1535-PDT (Sunday)
From: mike at UCLA-Security (Michael Urban)
Subject: Free Amazons of Ghor

   This has been mentioned already, I think, but a couple of years
ago, Randall Garrett concocted an operetta entitled "Free Amazons of
Ghor" in which Norman Gorman ("a macho Science Fiction writer") and
Mz. B. (author of the well-known Dimover books) are persuaded by their
anonymous Editor to combine their best-selling talents on a
collaboration entitled "Free Amazons of Ghor".  The other performers
act out the scenario as first one, then the other writer gets outraged
at the treatment of their characters.  It gets performed at
conventions from time to time.  It's silly and good-natured fun,
guaranteed to defuse a serious discussion of sexism...

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1981 23:43:29-PDT
From: Cory.alan at Berkeley
Subject: SF as social statement

        Date:  5-Oct-81  0:44:42 PDT (Monday)
        From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
        Subject: SF as social statement

        Cory.alan at Berkeley asks, "Why must Science Fiction be a
        social statement?  Why can't it be a good story, a character
        study, or some other kind of statement?"  It seems to me that
        man is a social being, and even a story of a man alone
        reflect's the character's implicit moral system, starting with
        the character's decision to live rather than die.  As soon as
        there is more than one character, we have an implicit
        political and ideological framework.  I do not believe that
        one can develop characters without such a framework.  An SF
        story without such a framework becomes merely a (usually
        boring) catalog of technological history, without any context
        to render it meaningful.

I agree with what you say, but I also think there is a difference
between a "social framework" and a "social statement".  Simply because
the novel (SF or not) describes events that happen in a society does
not mean that it makes a statement about that society (and usually,
therefore about existing society, i.e., which is better and why).  Man
is a social being, yes.  It seems to me that one can conjure up a
society for an SF book without it being incumbent upon the writer to
necessarily choose a society that points out deficiencies or benefits
of ours.  The society has to be there, but it does not have to be the
issue.  --Alan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 at 2257-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: The Money Changers

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ABOUT THAT "DEN OF THIEVES"...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Art Evans assertion of the need for accuracy in SF-L even in matters
other than SF (in issue 83) was well taken, but his memory of some
points in his exposition about the money changers in the Temple didn't
jibe with mine.  So I consulted a Friendly Neighborhood Fundamentalist
and checked out the various versions of the incident and came up with:

Both money changers and dealers in animals were attacked.  Both were
involved in graft and de-sacralization of the premises.  Their
activities made the outer courts of the Temple pretty much into a
typical noisy (and noisome) mid-eastern bazaar-- hardly conducive to
prayer, and Gentiles attracted to the worship of Jahveh were not
allowed to worship further in.

As for the graft by the animal sellers, those Certified Unblemished As
Required For Sacrifice animals sold at something like 10 times the
price of a corresponding one bought outside.  Temple authorities are
said to have had their hands in this till, and understandably the
chances of beasts brought in from elsewhere of getting passed by the
official certifiers were probably not real good.

As for the money changers, special coins were required for the payment
of the annual temple tax.  With control of the minting of those coins
in the hands of the Temple authorities, the situation was rather
different than currency exchanges at international airports.  ...No, I
take that back-- not so much different from \some/ I've heard of, but
vastly worse in degree of rip-off.

------------------------------

Date: 11 October 1981 20:46-EDT
From: Daniel Breslau <BRESLA at MIT-AI>
Subject: Steam tunneling and D&D

     Although I don't play D&D all that much, the steam-tunneling
incident referred to by Will Martin and others is one I remember well
from when it first hit the news.  Here's what I remember.

      A sixteen(or so) year old sophomore in computer science at
Michigan State disappeared suddenly about three years ago.  His
parents called in a private detective.  This detective found out about
the lad's D&D activities, and decided that this wierd game *MUST* have
been related to his disappearance.  As I remember, they were led to
search the steam tunnels by a pattern of thumbtacks on the guy's
bulletin board; it was taken to be a map of the area.  Now, my
interpretation has been that they never really did act out the game in
the steam tunnels.  Steam tunneling may be great fun, and perhaps the
guy did some of that as well; but the detective, and/or someone he
talked with, must have known zilch about D&D,figured the players took
it more seriously than D&Ders usually do ( Well, MOST D&D players
don't spend time hunting Orcs in steam tunnels) ,and decided that this
sinister cult of Dragon-worshipping Dungeon-dwellers was involved.
     The case was resolved when the student was found in another state
(geographically speaking, I mean -- I think it was Florida), living
with some friends.  He'd simply gotten over-pressured at school,and
split.  But because the nature of RPG's isn't well undertood by common
folk, we all came in for some undue publicity.
                            Dan Breslau
------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 1510-PDT
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: D&D in SF: Quag Keep

I read Quag Keep about a year ago because, knowing it was based on
D&D, I felt I really should see what it was like.  It was TERRIBLE!
It starts out, as Clark says, with some D&D players becoming their
characters, but after that it proceeds to lose almost all resemblance
to D&D.  The situations and actions end up varying wildly from the
normal rules, so what was Norton's point in introducing D&D to begin
with?  And the resolution of the book is useless--it resolves nothing
and is little more than a deus ex machina to give Norton an excuse to
stop writing.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 11 October 1981 1619-PDT (Sunday)
From: mike at UCLA-Security (Michael Urban)
Subject: Fantasy Role Playing

   First of all, "Thieves' World" has recently been published as a
Fantasy Role-Playing rules set.  You get booklets describing in detail
the local inhabitants, maps, etc.  The rules apparently had many
contributors.
   As for "live" D&D, there have been many attempts to transplant the
Fantasy Role Playing milieu to full-scale activity.  Each participant
assumes the role of a fantasy character, and the inventor can come up
with any of a number of solutions to "magic" (one guy locally had you
throw beanbags at the target of the spell, for example).  Presumably,
the Michigan State people were doing something like this in the steam
tunnels.  Maybe someone hid some "treasures" in advance and stationed
players representing "monsters" before allowing the "adventurers" in.
Those of us who have done steam-tunnel spelunking will realize that
this is normally Very Dangerous.  Assuming that the environment is
safer (a well-wooded park, say), "live" D&D is probably a very healthy
thing.  An entertaining way to get into the outdoors and run around
for a few hours.  It also feeds back into the more passive forms of
fantasy gaming a good deal of information on the realities of movement
in various environments while carrying staffs, etc, etc.
   There are role-playing games available in an astonishing number of
areas now.  Everything from Classical Mythology through Stormbringer,
"Bunnies and Burrows" (based on Watership Down.  Honest!), "Superhero
2044", "Top Secret", "Boot Hill", and even something called "Dallas".
In all of these games, each player assumes the role of a hero, or
rabbit or spy or oil tycoon, and play is free-format, based on
whatever scenario a creative "referee" can concoct.
   The companies that used to manufacture "hard" (meaning historical)
wargames/simulations in the past have discovered a huge market in the
fantasy and science fiction area.  In turn, the effect of gaming on
science fiction and fantasy literature is probably only beginning to
be felt.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 11 October 1981 2250-EDT (Sunday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject:  "Stormbringer" RPG publisher

        In case anyone cares, the company that publishes the game
"Stormbringer" is The Chaosium, Inc.; they also publish "Runequest",
so I would expect "Stormbringer" to use a similar (if not the same)
rule system.                                                   /DAC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #86
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 OCT 1981 0739-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #86
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:
               SF Books - Radix & James Schmitz works &
    Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Unfinished Books (Dick) &
             Series (X-Men/Comics/Technic Civilization),
             SF Movies - Lost World,  SF TV - Star Trek,
                    Random Topics - Data General,
               SF Topics - Evidence for Precognition &
              SF and Sexism & SF Universes as D&D Worlds
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1981 19:57:29-PDT
From: ihuxo!hobs at Berkeley (John Hbson)
Reply-to: "ihuxo!hobs c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: Review of RADIX

Last week, I got a copy of the novel RADIX from my local public
library (the head librarian is a real lover of SF, and so she has
gotten quite a few books).  I read it over the weekend and I feel
compelled to write a review (anyway, people keep complaining that SFL
keeps talking about movies and the like, so here is a rebuttle to that
claim).

RADIX by A. A. Attanasio (New York:  William Morrow and Company, Inc.,
1981) 467pp. $15.95 (I think I may have seen it in paperback also).

The jacket cover blurb compares Attanasio to Frank Herbert, obviously
thinking of DUNE, but a far closer comparison would be to Samuel
Delany, with THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION coming to mind.  The
protagonist, Sumner Kagan, is a fat punk who sets up elaborate
ambushes in the city of McClure in what used to be Texas before The
Line (defined in Appendix III as "a hypertube; the timelike geodesics
which connect the spacefree internal domain of a naked
Kerr-singularity (a rotating black hole which is `open' to our
universe); CIRCLE [a scientific group] mantics [persons with
artificially enhanced intelligence] first identified the ray of
metafrequency energy streaming from the massive black hole at the
galactic hub as the Line; earth migrated into the flux of the Line
fully in 2113 kro [civilization before the Line] ...." started
altering the world.

The above is a good example of some of the writing in this book.  It
is filled with semi-digested science, attempting to give a rational
expalnation to why earth and its people have been physically and
psychically changed.  The writing in the novel itself also reminds me
more of Delany than of Herbert, but more the Delany of TEI rather than
DHALGREN.

The plot is devoted to Sumner's attempts to find out what is really
going on and, not coincidentally, to survive.  There are several
attempts made on his life--in fact, the book opens with one--by, among
others, street gangs, the police (what he has been doing to the gangs
has set off major rioting in McClure, and when he is caught, he is so
badly beaten that he spends several months in hospital), a cyborg
killer named Nefandi, the mother of his child, the child (with whom he
enters a symbiotic relationship) and the army, which he joins and
becomes a member of an elite corps.

This is a long, convoluted novel, richly charactered (the one that I
liked best was Bonescrolls, a 1200 year old ape that brings to mind
echoes of E'telikeli, the god-like eagle of Cordwainer Smith's
universe), sometimes difficult to follow, but worth reading.  My
principal objection to this novel is that it often did remind me of
other novels, a character from Cordwainer Smith, writing and
situations from Delaney, one or two bits from Frank Herbert, a touch
of Bester, a taste of van Vogt, shades of Vance, a little John
Brunner, and so on.  I do recommend this novel as one worth reading,
but I am not sure if I liked it or not.

                                John

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 1981 16:22 PDT
From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: James H. Schmitz

HJJH reported a while back that James H. Schmitz had died.  A great
loss for all of us.  Does anyone know anything about possible
printings of his uncollected stories?  I think there is at least one
Trigger/Telzey short that hasn't been collected.  Also, I have never
been able to find "A Nice Day for Screaming, and Other Tales of the
Hub."  I have the impression it was never printed in paperback.
Anyone ever seen a copy?

        Larry <Stewart.pa@parc>

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 (Monday) 2210-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Here's the title..., with a reason...

  All this talk of series and books we just couldn't finish reminds me
of a PK Dick book I once read... I guess this should be headed "here's
the plot..."  In any case, I read this one a short time after UBIK and
Androids Dream..., I was really getting into this guy.  The book's
general plot is...

     <main character, Ralph, I believe> is a mathematician living with
  <his sister and brother in law?> in some small midwestern town in
  the mid-50's.  <Ralph> doesn't work, he solves a puzzle in the
  newspaper called "Where will the little green man land next?".  He
  is apparently the best and biggest prizewinner ever... Well, as time
  goes by, certain anomalies are discovered in open lots, etc, such as
  "strange" phone books and newspapers.  Much more would require a
  spoiler warning.

As to why I am interested in this book?  Well, the last 20 or 30 pages
were positively the worst way out of a novel I've ever seen.  Up to
that point it was a beautiful construction, and Dick plainly ruined
it, totally.  Since then (around 3 years), I literally have not been
able to pick up and read anything by Dick, despite that I know what he
is *capable* of producing.  I guess this is an extreme of being unable
to finish books -- being unable to read material by an author because
of a bad experience.
  On the topic of half-finished novels -- I drop a good deal of what I
start.  If it's not good within the first third (or at least not fair,
sometimes I'm generous), I'm quick to abandon.  Once past halfway,
I'll usually finish.  If what Ted Sturgeon says is true (90% of
everything is shit), then are the compulsive finishers more
masochistic than the bad-book droppers?
  As to length of stories -- I believe that the mid-length stories
(oh, say, up to 70 pages-worth?) are the most tolerable of SF -- I'm
more likely to finish (and enjoy) a mid-length work than one that is
(as is so often the case) stretched out beyond the breaking point.
Novella/novelette/short story collections I almost always finish,
cover-to-cover.  It's novels that drag.
  Ta-ta.
    -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 12 October 1981 14:01 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Lost World

I had a chance to see the 1925 silent version of the HG Wells classic
recently; it is definitely worth digging out if you are part of a
college film society or some such.  It demonstrates that "King Kong"
was not the innovative film that many film histories describe it as;
many of the "Lost World" sequences are smoother and more realistic
than "Kong" (or "Clash of the Titans," for that matter.)  The end of
the movie has the Brontosaurus slipping its leash and trampling
London; this may have been the inspiration for the Brontosaurus Theory
on Monty Python.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 12-OCT-1981 13:19
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY c/o" <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: The last prime-time Star Trek episode

Speaking of Star Trek, does anyone know what the last word spoken on
the last episode broadcast by NBC is, and who said it, and to whom?

This question destroyed every trivia contestant at the 1976 Star Trek
Convention.

Regards,
Susan

[ Please respond directly to Susan via CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley, not
  the digest proper.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 18:01:28-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!pbr at Berkeley (Peter B. Reintjes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!pbr c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: Research Triangle Park, North Carolina

Re: Hank Walker`s comment about Data General being one ot the worst
companies in the known universe to work for. It is the best place I`ve
worked and is in my opinion, the best place to work I`ve ever seen.
I`m talking about the facility in North Carolina at the Research
Triangle Park. I don`t know about how things are up in Massachusetts,
either at DEC or Data General, but in my opinion, Massachusetts may
well be one of the worst places to work (of course, @/!vi I love
Boston. I just wouldn`t want to work there)

[ This message refers to Hank Walkers review of the book "The Soul of
  a New Machine" which appeared in Volume 4, Issue 80 ]

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1981 12:05 PDT
From: Kaehler at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Evidence for Precognition

In the story "Party of the Two Parts", in the book The Human Angle,
published in 1956, William Tenn has one of the characters say the
following:

        "If this creature dies on us, you and I will be lucky to draw
        no more than a punishment tour in the Black Hole in Cygnus."
                                                                 p.95

In retrospect we can only conclude that William Tenn must have had a
precognition about the discovery of X-ray source in Cygnus, which is
believed to be a binary system containing a normal star and a black
hole.  The unusual properties of Cygnus X-1 were only noticed in the
last 60's, and it was proposed as an observable black hole in the
early 70's.  Black holes themselves were theoretically proposed in
1939 by Robert Oppenheimer.  What could be more conclusive as evidence
for precognition?
                -- Ted Kaehler

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1981 15:03 PDT
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Comic Book Sexism: Phoenix

A friend of mine who is a staunch fan of the X-Men filled me in on
some of the background of the death of Phoenix.  The current word in
comicdom is that editor at Marvel did indeed dislike having such a
strong female character, and wanted to have her toned down.  The
writer didn't like that idea, and instead began to make her more
powerful.  At one point, when the story line had her going berserk,
she destroyed lots of stuff, including a star system.  The artist
chose to draw one of the planets as being inhabited, and nobody
realised the implications of this until the comic was out, at which
point the editor insisted that such a mass murderer had to die to set
things straight again.  In other words, the writer (and artist) wanted
to have a powerful female, but the editor didn't, and through a
mistake the editor had his way.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1981 21:16:56-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Comics and....

   Another advantage of Marvel comics is that they bring in the real
world in several interesting ways. I remember a few years back
Spiderman dropping in on Bill Rotsler (noted fan cartoonist), and the
latest issue of X-Men has the walk-through-walls kid show up in an
ELFQUEST T-shirt.  (ELFQUEST is a fantasy serial by Wendy and Richard
Pini; it is one of the most promising developments in [comics].)

------------------------------

Date: 10-Oct-1981
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX
Reply-to: "PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Poul Anderson's Technic Series

Anderson's Flandry series is in fact part of a much larger series
including his so-called Polesotechnic Series that comes before Flandry
and several stories that come after.  Collectively, the series has
been called the Technic series, and it stretches over 5,000 years
(although the bulk of the stories cover the first 1,000 years.)  There
is chronology of the series in "The Earth Book of Stormgate," Poul
Anderson, Berkley Publishing, 1978.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1981 21:07:52-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: [Live FRP]

   This has been attempted at least twice by the local branch of SCA
(Society for Creative Anachronism). The chief difficulties are that it
can take a lot of people to organize and staff while very few play
(think about the "ground" covered by a typical D&D expedition) and
that setting up a coherent set of rules can defeat many organizers.
The one attempt I participated in was enjoyable, although much less
fantasy-oriented than most of the non-mobile versions.

------------------------------
Date: 12 Oct 1981 16:08:53-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Thoughts on RPGs

        One possible reason for the increase in the number of fantasy
RPGs as opposed to historical simulations is that unless one is a
diehard military historian of some sort, there is far less variety in
battle simulations than in fantasy environments. To put it a different
way, once having fought the battle of Gettysburg, there is very little
point in fighting either battle of Bull Run, Vicksburg, or the March
to the Sea (apologies to all those southerners out there), or any
other battle of the Civil War. Same for WWII and the Battle of the
Bulge, or any Pacific island battle you might care to name. It would
seem that there are basically three games worth playing for each
technical environment (e.g. swords, mounted armor, mounted armor vs.
arrows, etc. right on up to the present): a war game, a campaign game,
and a battle game.  Examples of each would be WORLD WAR II, D-DAY, and
BATTLE OF THE BULGE, respectively. Some case might be made for
physical environment also having an effect, but often this is
reflected in the technical environment as well.

        The advantage of a fantasy environment is that simply by
creating a new world with a new set of rules, it is possible to create
a whole new set of games with little or no overlap between the types
of action therein and the types of action a game manufacturer has
already created. This means that you can sell your games not only to
those people who are new to wargaming and RPGing, but also to people
who are already caught up in this sort of thing.

        Finally, two environments which I think might be interesting
for RPGs are Alan Dean Foster's Midworld (lots of interesting monsters
running around, even if it is a little short on magic--maybe some
offworld tools could be brought in for effect) and Jack Vance's world
of the Dragon Masters (cf. Hugo Winners II).

                                        Bill Laubenheimer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #87
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 OCT 1981 0554-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #87
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 Oct 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:
                         SF Fandom - ROC*KON,
             SF Books - Story Query Answered & "Phools" &
                   Series (Retief) & Thorne Smith,
                    SF Movies - Star Wars naming,
               SF Topics - Brunner's Game of Fencing &
              Evidence for Precognition & SF and Sexism,
                  Random Topics - The Money Changers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 Oct 1981 at 0030-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: @-Sign Buttons & ROC*KON

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ @-SIGN BUTTONS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hopefully, by now I have answered everyone who inquired about getting
buttons made, and notified senders whose SASE, etc., reached me thur
U.S.SNAIL.  The first batch of "art work" has been posted to Margaret
Middleton, and unless she's up to her antennae in ROC*KON business,
the buttons should be on their way to you shortly.  If I've missed
anybody (DID have difficulty getting back thur on some) or you could
not get thur to ME (we had troubles here, too), message me again.  If
HJJH@UTEXAS-11 doesn't work, try LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.

And speaking of...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ROC*KON ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...which is going to be in Little Rock the 16th to 18th, are there
going to be any other "ATTERS" there?  Saberhagen as GoH may or may
not be something you dig, but the filking will be real good.  For a
fairly modest and out-of-the-way bash, ROC*KON still draws filk-fen
from as far as Toronto and Seattle.  I'm rooming with a first-timer
coming down from Albany on Bob Asprin's recommendation, but there's
floor space (if you won't mind being run over by their wheelchair).

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1981 1455-EDT
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: P.K. Dick Title

Steve Platt's Philip K. Dick book is "Time Out of Joint" the only
edition of which that I know of was a Belmont paperback from around
1965.  The main character is Ragle Gumm, who lives with his sister and
brother-in-law in a rather odd 1950s.  For example, there are a lot of
Packards around and no one has heard of Marilyn Monroe.  Ragle is the
champion of a newspaper contest "Where Will the Little Green Man Be
Next?"

This is one of the first Dick books to explore the theme of reality
not being what it seems to be, and as such is indeed a little rough.

          Dave

[ Thanks to Shipper.ES at PARC-MAXC for also providing the title
  of this work.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date:  13 October 1981 09:30 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  New Lem Story

"Phools," by Stanislaw Lem, has appeared in the 12 Oct. issue of New
Yorker.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1981 12:23:57-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: references

   Contento's anthology index does not show any post-magazine
publication for Laumer's "Diplomat At Arms". It strikes me that the
relationship between this and the rest of Retief is similar to the
links between THE FALCONS OF NARABEDLA or THE DOOR THROUGH SPACE and
the Darkover books: pieces of background were pulled in but the intent
and orientation of the series aren't really related to this early
appearance.
   Contento also identifies the author of "I am a Nucleus" as Stephen
Barr, and notes the only reprinting as being in THE FOURTH GALAXY
READER.

------------------------------

Date: 13 October 1981 11:07 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Thorne Smith Connections

The ghosts in "Topper" (the Kirbys) were based on Mr. and Mrs.
Nathaniel West.  West was the author of four novels, the two most
famous being "Day of the Locust" and "Miss Lonelyhearts".  The other
two, "The Dream Life of Balso Snell" and "Cool Million," are what
Vonnegut has clearly been inspired by. (Read them before you object to
this assertion.)

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 9 October 1981  01:35-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Brunner's game of Fencing

(This message has something to do with science fiction.)

Does anyone know whether "Fencing" as described by John Brunner in
Shockwave Rider (an excellent novel, by the way) is a real game?  That
is, can the game really be played by the rules given (or has anyone
extended them), and does it lead to interesting play and strategy?

                                        Ken

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 1981 2237-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Precognition


The example of the Black Hole is completely unconvincing.  The very
wording indicates a tour of duty 'IN' the Black Hole.  Something that
we know to be impossible, for tour of duty means in and out again,
while black hole means in in in...  I'm afraid that the wording is
more reminiscent of the famous Black Hole of Calcutta, which was well
known by the '50s, and would make a suitable tour of duty for
punishment.

Sorry, doesn't wash.

------------------------------

Date: 13-OCT-1981 10:03
From: WAFER::SEILER
Reply-to: "WAFER::SEILER c/o" <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Money-changers - one last time

    Forgive me, O Moderator, for bringing this up one more time, but
it bothers me when people misrepresent the Bible.  Jesus did NOT kick
the money-changers out of the temple because he was an activist trying
to gain attention for his cause.  Nor did he object to sacrifice as
atonement for sins.  If you want to know the real reason why he did
it, read Matthew 21:12-13 or John 2:14-17.  Enough said.

Larry Seiler, Seiler@MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date: 1-SEP-1981 09:52
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "COORS::VICKREY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: still cloning around

The Emperor's voice was definitely Clive Reville - at the time TESB
came out he had just been on a BBC/Masterpiece theater (and I can't
remember which one) and when I heard the Emperor's voice I got so
d----d distracted trying to match the face up to Reville's that I
missed most of the next scene.  The next n times I saw TESB, I looked
- reeaal close - but the face does look more like Guinness then
Reville (Like GUINNESS, in one of his bad guy roles, not like Obi-Wan
Kenobi).  The resemblance was most striking when the Emperor smiles in
(evil) pleasure at the thought of recruiting Luke to the dark side.  I
dunno - maybe they train all British actors to smile like that when
being evil.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1981 22:18:12-PDT
From: Cory.hatcher at Berkeley
Subject: Luke's father's brother's name

        I think you are all skipping something, remember Luke's father
was a KNOWN Jedi and all the Jedi were destroyed.  WHY would Luke's
father's brother want to keep the same family name, wouldn't he be in
fear for his life?  It probably was simplest for him (Luke's uncle) to
move to a backward planet and change his name.
                        AJH

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 81 11:30:25-EDT (Tue)
From: Pavel.Cornell at UDel
Subject: SW and TESB friends and relations

        Forgive the intrusions of a mere novice (two-timer on SW and
TESB each), but the obscurity of Luke's mother seems not to be a
matter of complexity in plot or hints at cloning, but a mere product
of the general dearth of females in both films.  Granted, of the main
characters, one is female, but Leia seems to me to be the least
developed and most inconsistent of our heroic trio+.  There are only
two other females who come to mind: the faithful (and faceless) Beru,
and Luke's beast on Hoth ("steady, girl...").  Elsewhere I can recall
*none*, except perhaps some alien types of low character in the bar in
Mos Eisley on Tatooine, and a technician at the radar screens on Hoth.
Even these are speculation and not clear memory.  Where Heavy Metal
may be guilty of exploitation, Lucas is guilty of simple neglect.

        The one hope I see of redemption is my impression that Leia
will come in for development as Yoda's "other" possible Jedi.  Recall
when Luke was hanging one-handed off the cloud city the telepathic
call to Leia in the ship.  I believe that was not all just his power;
she at least has shadows of the Force.  There seems to be some
important connection between the two apart from their squeaky-clean
friendship.  Perhaps this is just wishful thinking that she can be
more than the fairy princess in distress and a source of mild romantic
competition between Luke and Han.
        Beyond that, cloning must certainly be the answer to all the
questions.  How else did the population reach its size?
        Are there any other women mentioned in the books?
        Comments, please.
                                --Becky, c/o Cornell.Pavel@Udel

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1981 00:27:52-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: sexism


First an aside before I *really* start flaming:  read Vonda McIntyre's
"Exile in Waiting" to see why I say she successfully avoids
unnecessary sexual distinctions.  Contrast that work with, say, F. M.
Busby's "Rissa Kerguellen"; he tries (which is better than most) but
doesn't quite succeed.

On to the pyrotechnics:  my dictionary defines 'racism' (it doesn't
list sexism; I trust no one will object to reasoning by analogy) as:

        1. a belief that human races have distinctive make-ups that
        determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea
        that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule
        others.  2. a policy of enforcing such asserted right.  3. a
        system of government and society based upon it.

The key point, of course, is the distinction between environmental
differences and inherent ones.  It is not sexist to say that on the
average, women have less strength than men.  Nor is it sexist to say
that that makes them less-suited to weight-lifting.  It isn't even
sexist to observe that the typical American woman is less interested
in sports than the typical man is.  But it *is* sexist to say that
women shouldn't even try weight-lifting, as is saying that women "by
their nature" wouldn't be interested in sports.  It is essential to
distinguish between innate differences, innate tendencies, and
culturally-imposed conditioning.

This, of course, is where SF fits in.  A writer of, say, spy novels
can excuse the lack of women (except as sex objects, of course) by
pointing to the real world -- as far as I know, neither the CIA nor
the KGB employ many women in covert assignments.  But an SF writer
(usually) has no such excuse.  Society even 100 years from now is
likely to be sufficiently different that some justification should be
cited if women are to be cast in "traditional" roles.  Sometimes, this
is done -- in "Starfog", Poul Anderson speaks of a group of humans who
have evolved a strong instinctual compulsion to have children.  Most
often, though, the question is completely ignored -- which speaks more
of the author's mindset and his/her own cultural conditioning (I use
"her" quite deliberately; with a few exceptions, SF written by women
is just as sexist) than any deliberate decision.  I can forgive this
more in older books -- until 10 or 15 years ago, there was little
public discussion of sexism (though I, too, wince when reading
"Foundation").  And some authors did better -- in "Childhood's End",
written in 1953, Clarke made specific mention of how racism had died
out, though his treatment of women is standard.  But in modern books,
I have trouble finding excuses other than incompetence or subconscious
sexism.  (Note:  I am excluding from these categories authors who
consider and reject the issue.  Obviously, I disagree, and I feel that
they have drawn incorrect conclusions from available data.
Furthermore, I am suspicious about the extent to which their
analytical faculties have been affected by their own unavoidably
sexist upbringing (I don't think one can avoid that taint even today;
it's too pervasive in our culture). I suspect that they feel the same
way about me.  But such works are a miniscule portion of the sexist
books published.)

What can/should be done by authors?  One can write a non-sexist work,
as McIntyre and Varley have done.  This is difficult, because one is
then called upon to examine some pretty ingrained biases.  A technique
that has occurred to me is to describe a character fully, and *then*
flip a coin to pick the person's sex.  Obviously, that's a lot easier
for minor characters.

One can write a pro-feminist work, such as Russ, Abbey, Bradley, and
others have done.  (Bradley's case is especially interesting, because
she was stuck with a popular but sexist world; she's had to fit in
other sub-cultures without doing too much violence to the rest of
Darkover.)  Or one can attempt to justify putting women in traditional
roles.  But both of the latter cases are classifiable as propaganda,
and have to be read as such.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #88
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 OCT 1981 0411-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #88
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 15 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Story Query Answered & Author Query &
                     Series(Avengers/Comics/GOR),
      SF Movies - Star Wars naming,  SF TV - Science Fact Shows,
   SF Topics - Brunner's Game of Fencing & SF and Sexism & Dreaming
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 October 1981 14:12-EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #84


Alice!ark at Berkeley is looking for "I am a Nucleus" by Stephen Barr.
Thanks to MITSFS's George Flynn for telling me the author when all I
remembered was the title.

   --- Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1981 1508-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Fencing


 I have experimented with it.  Fencing is a real game, in the sense
that the rules are complete and consistent enough to be playable.
Unfortunately, it doesn't rate as even potentially in the same class
as Chess or Go. There is simply too much chance involved.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1981 1546-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  from III via Rand  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: John Brunner

Does anyone know how to get in touch with him?  (phone number, postal
address, tapeworm template ...)

------------------------------

Date: 14 October 1981 2236-EDT (Wednesday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject:  Leia as the "other"

        Since it was brought up, I'd like to cast my vote for Leia as
the "other" Jedi, based solely on cinematographic (is that a real
word?) grounds.  Imagine the visual impact and symbolism of a
lightsabre duel between Leia (in a flowing white gown) and Vader (in
his billowing black cape).                                       /DAC

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1981 10:45:30-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: sexism

   A cogent set of arguments. I have one correction, however; Clarke
(in CHILDHOOD'S END) notes that Earth was broken of racism by the
Outsiders, just as it was broken of bullfights.

------------------------------

Date: 12 October 1981
From: duke!dukgeri!mad
Subject: Comic book sexism, esp. Avengers#200

     I found it interesting that Tom Stern picked Avengers #200 as an
example of sexism in comic books.  While I admit that there is sexism
in comic books (as well as a variety of other -isms), that particular
issue has a behind-the-scenes-in-context story that makes it an
exception in the Avenger series.

In issue 199 we learned shortly after Ms. Marvel and the Scarlet Witch
had wandered the Jersey Shore discussing the pros and cons of
super-heroing vs. motherhood that MM was indeed pregnant.  Many people
thought Wonder Man might be the lucky guy.  With baited breath we
waited for issue #200, which oddly enough was late off the presses.

CENSORED!  The issue was rewritten, in a hurry as one could tell by
it's strange and choppy plot (Marvel stories of that depth usually run
at least 6 issues).  David Michelini (sp?) told listeners at a comic
book convention in Richmond VA that Ms. Marvel was the victim of
editor's discretion, not rape!  Since we are in the habit of mixing
sci fi and religion (I was a computer science/religion double major in
college) I will not hesitate to say that Ms. Marvel because of her
strength had been chosen to bear the messiah for the Kree race (of
which she is a member--for more info on the kree's see the issues on
the origin of Mantis, between 120 and 130 somewhere if I remember
correctly).  But Marvel comics had chosen not to publish this
potentially controversial work, and asked David to write another in a
rush (it was already past deadline).  The son of Immortus seemed a
likely candidate, since it had courtesy of Immortus that we had
learned in detail about the Kree in the first place.

So the book originally destined to be a testimony to woman's strength
became a twisted controversy about her apparent weakness.  On the
whole I believe Marvel makes a supreme effort to give women heroes on
an equal plane with the men, and I commend them for it.  I am sorry
they did not have the courage to print a book that would have opened
the eyes of many to the complex nature of our world.

                              "Mike" Dickerson

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1981 15:57:06-PDT
From: E.jeffc at Berkeley
Subject: The proliferation of science fact shows

     Jacob Bronowski, in a book whose name I can't remember right now,
described a tour he made of Nagasaki after it was destroyed by the
atomic bomb.  He used this experience as a starting point for an
inquiry into how this sort of thing could happen: the products of
science, the result of the creative powers of man, were used for the
purpose of destruction.

     How does this tie in with the explosion of "science
fact/speculation" shows on television?  To briefly restate his
conclusions, the destructive uses that the results of science are put
to by society are the result of society using the products of science
while ignoring the methods by which these products were created.  I
have simplified things a bit, and maybe a concrete example would help.

     As nuclear power seems to be everyone's favorite topic, for one
reason or another, it is a good place to start.  In all of the
newspaper articles, editorials, TV special reports, and everything
else that the mass media bombards us with, is there anything which
relates to the scientific methodology which created the nuclear power
plant.  The answer is obviously no.  For if they did, we would be
told, first of all, exactly what are the components which make up a
nuclear reactor.  Instead, they give us scare stories based upon
something happening in some part of the reactor.  Such information is
meaningless unless you knew a lot more about reactors than what they
were telling.  Secondly, they would say HOW the nuclear reactor
worked.  Again, the information about mysterious gas bubbles are
meaningless without such information, and can only be intended to
scare the general population. (Admittedly, my bias is showing, but I
think it is no secret that the mass media is usually liberal in its
outlook.)  Thirdly, they would tell us WHY the nuclear reactor was
designed as it was, based on HOW it works.  Surely there must be a
reason why it was designed the way it was, for many scientists have
spent many hours trying to get that first nuclear reactor to work, and
the design of the modern nuclear reactor is the result of learning
what DIDN'T work.  The mass media gives us none of this.  Instead,
they tell us about "mysterious" gas bubbles and quote scenes from a
certain Jane Fonda movie (which was released merely days before Three
Mile Island - coincidence?)

     But enough of my flaming on nuclear power.  The point is obvious:
how is the population supposed to make an intelligent decision on the
benefits and risks of nuclear power, or robotics, or genetic
engineering, or space colonization, or anything else, when all they
are presented with are the results of science, and not with the
methods of science?  If you don't UNDERSTAND something, then you are
in no way qualified to make a JUDGMENT on it.  The mass media does
nothing to further understanding.


     Enter the new science fact shows.
     I have watched OMNI, and the CBS special.  They do nothing to
further understanding among the public of all of these great
technological advancements they were announcing.  I have only one good
thing to say about the OMNI TV special: it didn't have those wierd
pictures from an LSD fantasy that the magazine is loaded with.  As
neither show promoted "understanding", they both, by definition,
promoted "mysticism," which is the opposite of understanding.  This is
incredibly dangerous.  The new sciences and technologies which were
presented on these shows will come to pass, and they will require a
population which can handle them, for if the population is not able to
handle them, only disaster can occur.  We are already beginning to see
this today.  There is nothing "evil" about splitting an atom for the
purpose of generating energy anymore than there is something "evil"
about re-arranging the atoms between some molecules for the same
purpose.  The "evil" is that the average person today seems totally
incapable of understanding the process of splitting an atom.  It is
something "mystical," and is therefore something to be feared.  In the
future, we would not only have nuclear power to mystify the people,
but also all of the new sciences and technologies which are only just
now beginning to take shape.  While OMNI was definitely the worse of
the two (and we mustn't forget that the person behind OMNI is the same
person behind PENTHOUSE), both shows, along with Walter Cronkite's
Universe, Carl Sagan's COSMOS, Leonard Nimoy's In Search Of, and
others, are incredibly dangerous.  They all give the impression that
science is nothing but an assorted collection of incredibly
complicated gadgets whose inner workings are "somewhat mysterious,"
but yet we are supposed to somehow "cope" anyway with the "possibly
dangerous implications" if these things were to be used "unwisely,"
while at the same time they do nothing to help the average person to
decide for himself what is the "wise" way to use them.  The result is
obvious: either people will use them unwisely, or they will decide not
to use them at all.  Considering the problems the world is facing
today, that's all we need.

(Note that I did not include NOVA in the above "hit" list.  While some
of the shows can be quite obnoxious, a lot of them are quite good.)

 - Jeff Cohen -

------------------------------


Date:  6 Oct 1981 0223-PDT
From: Dave Dyer <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Lucid Dreaming


 There is a fascinating article in the current "New Scientist" (24
Sept.)  on the subject of dreams in which the dreamer is aware he is
dreaming, and is to some extent in control of its content.  It states
that they have succeeded in getting subjects in sleep laboratories to
signal the onset of lucid dreaming, to perform dream experiments and
report the results, by distinctive eye movements and changes in
breathing.

 Further, they have developed techniques to induce the "lucid" state
(shades of "Lathe of Heaven"!).  This is the first instance I have
heard of where dream research has (successfully) become an
experimental rather than purely observational science.

 Finally, the sentence that incited this note: "The secret of dream
control is to look around the dream for an appropriate setting for the
dream you want."  Now, what well known SF series does THAT remind you
of?

------------------------------

Date: 17 September 1981 0258-PDT (Thursday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: The "Dream" Machine

I'd like to put forth a concept for comment from the SFL community.
There is nothing terribly new in what I'm about to say -- major
portions of the idea have been used in numerous SF works over time.
Still, I'd like to see the various possibilities tossed around a bit,
since it's an idea that has intrigued me for quite a long time.

CONCEPT:  THE DREAM MACHINE

Assume the existence of an extremely powerful "computer" (this means
more than an LSI-11).  Seriously, this "computer" would by necessity
be incredibly advanced over anything we now possess or could create in
the near future.  It would not really be a computer at all, but that's
the best term I can use.  This machine has an immense knowledge of a
variety of subjects, including almost total knowledge of the basic
concepts of the "outside world".

Now, we must also assume that this same machine has the ability to
directly interface with the human brain and accurately draw upon
conscious thoughts and, to a certain extent, a person's raw memory.

That's the basic hardware, now for the scenario:

Seymour Foonman walks into ValHalla, Inc. and plunks down his $300,000
for a one month visit to, well, to ANYWHERE.  The only restriction is
that there must be enough information available about the destination
to create a satisfactory "matrix" for the machine.  For this example,
let's say that our friend wants to visit the "universe of Star Trek".

Seymour carries with him copies of everything ever written, taped, or
filmed about Star Trek.  All the books, stories, "technical"
documents, and of course, all the episodes of the show.  All this data
is dropped into the gaping mouth of the machine, which churns, blinks
a few lights, and announces that it is ready to proceed.

Seymour lays down on a couch, is injected with various chemical
preparations, and has an EEG transceiver placed on his head.  The
technicians fiddle with the equipment a bit, then announce that there
is a problem, and could Seymour please come back tomorrow?  He is a
bit upset, but he agrees.  They remove all the equipment, Seymour
slides home, and finds, on his front doorstep, a perfect replica of a
Star Trek communicator.  He picks it up, opens it (BEEP! CHEEP!), and
jokingly says, "Energize".  (VRRRRRRRMMMMMMM).  He finds himself on a
transporter pod on the Enterprise, and his adventures begin.

That's the basic idea.  Obviously, other than Star Trek could have
been used for this example -- any fairly complete fictional universe
could have been used.  (The Gor universe, through its extreme
voluminous nature and considerable detail, would also be a suitable
candidate -- but I'm not at all sure I would sign up for a visit).

What would be the ramifications of such technology?  Would we all
eventually find ourselves completely unable to determine the
difference between illusion and reality?  (Shades of "The
Futurological Congress" and Star Trek's "The Cage" [The Menagerie]).
More importantly, would there really be anything "wrong" with the
situation if we COULDN'T tell?  If one could spend 80 years in the
illusion of healthful youth, is there any reason to grow old?

I think you get the general idea.  How about some discussion of the
philosophical (and if you like, the technical) aspects of "sustained
illusion"?  I'd like to hear what the mass wisdom of SFL has to say on
this subject.

Thanks much.

--Lauren--

P.S.  If my current life turns out to be an "illusion" generated by
one of these machines, I'm going to demand a refund.

--LW--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #89
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 OCT 1981 2249-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #89
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - Tetrarch & "Perchance to Dream" & "Prime Time" &
               Heinlein's works & Series (GOR/Titan) &
       Rewritten (The City and the Stars/2001: A Space Odyssey/
           Golem 100/Blood's a Rover),  SF TV - Star Trek,
                SF Topics - Dreaming & SF and Sexism &
        Physics Today (Sun) & Physics Tomorrow (Future Fauna),
                            Humor - RPG's
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10/15/81 1547-EDT
From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject: Book Review relevant to Discussion of Dreaming


     Some of the concerns raised by the two messages on dreaming,
which appeared in SFL Digest V4 #88, are addressed in Dr. Alex
Comfort's recent SF book, TETRARCH. In this story, a couple "discovers
an alternate universe", which contains a number of unusual and
distinctive societies. Each of these societies represents a major
structural element of the author's conception of the human psyche. The
protagonists participate in resolving conflicts between some of the
societies, and the outcomes symbolize humanity's psycho-social
development in the "mundane" universe.

     The alternate universe turns out to be some sort of "inner
space", which is accessible to anybody who knows how to get there, but
it presents a consistent, objective, external reality to all who
perceive it, just like the "mundane" universe. Throughout history,
human "adepts" have been spending time in this alternate world. The
protagonists meet both an acquaintance from "mundane" life and
historical figures from the "mundane" world, during their stays on
"the other side". Time does not elapse in the "mundane" universe,
while people are visiting the alternate universe. The characters
transfer their consciousnesses from the "mundane" world to the
alternate universe merely by willing it, once they have mastered the
proper mental trick. The alternate universe depicted in TETRARCH
appears to share a number of properties with the "lucid dream state",
as it was described by Dave Dyer. This book also considers the
implications of the hypothesis that the "lucid dream state" might
allow for vast augmentation of our psychological lifespans, i.e. the
idea that we could cram much more experience into the same amount of
physical time.

Micro-Review : I recommend TETRARCH, but I would not recommend it
emphatically.

Macro-Review : Dr. Comfort's book, TETRARCH, is an episodic travelogue
story with social commentary, in the tradition of GULLIVER'S TRAVELS
and SILVERLOCK.  The protagonists are transported to an alien locale
which has a well established geography. A number of short incidents
occur while the protagonists are exploring the unknown territory. The
events which befall the protagonists serve to convey and illustrate
the author's views on issues pertinent to his/her society.
     Dr. Comfort cleverly uses a rather hackneyed literary genre to
communicate a fairly complex and very modern philosophical position.
The reinterpretation of many traditional literary ideas, as symbols
for the author's philosophical system is especially effective. The
book also contains provocative speculations about the answers to
certain problems in psychology, and the technology which could result
from his propositions. However, like other members of this genre,
TETRARCH is flawed by didacticism. Dr. Comfort, author of THE JOY OF
SEX, grinds his axe about: 1) The necessity for non-possessive,
non-monogamous psycho-sexual relationships, and 2) The error of
placing too much emphasis on reasoning, at the expense of other parts
of the human psyche. The author is so intent on delivering his
messages, that he doesn't pay enough attention to telling a good
story. Both the characters and the plots are devoid of complexity. The
book consists of vignettes which start and end without giving the
reader any chance to be drawn into the author's fictional universe,
simply because they pass too quickly. It is unfortunate that a story
with such genuine intellectual ambition has difficulty fully engaging
the reader's attention.

                             Enjoy,

                                 Karl Heinemann

------------------------------

kwh@MIT-AI 10/15/81 08:25:38 Re: Dream Machines

This idea was the central core of a number of Mack Reynolds stories.
In "Perchance to Dream," a device called the Intuitive Computer
is described, which is essentially this massive intelligent machine
which can "compute history" based on the present combined with a
coffin-sized "dream chamber" a person can travel into the past
- without affecting anything, since its a dream.  And not only
could he travel into the real past, he could travel into a fictional
past (the past, say, where there were real Greek gods and goddesses)
or I suppose, into a fictional future (of say, Star Trek) all through
the dream machine and the computational wonder of the "Intutive
Computer"

There was also one of these things in "Utopia:2100" (or something like
that).

Both of the stories seem to class the machines as inherently bad,
because they take people away from reality - this was the moral point
which Reynolds stressed.

I didn't like the books very much, but I'm eclectic...

                        Cheers,
                                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1981 21:35-EDT
From: James A. Cox <APPLE at MIT-MC>
Subject: The "Dream" Machine


     A really interesting story that is somewhat similar to this is
"Prime Time" by Norman Spinrad.  I just read it in \The 1981 Annual
World's Best SF/, edited by Donald Wollheim, naturally (who else would
pick such a pretentious title?).  In this story, when people get old
they retire to "Total Television Heaven," where they live, according
to the advertisement, with "twenty full channels of pornography,
thirty-five full channels of adventure, forty channels of continuing
soaps -- live, full-time. . . ."  You can also have important events
in your live taped in order to "take them with you" to TTH.  The
reality, of course, is not necessarily as wondrous as TTH people would
have you believe (naturally, otherwise there isn't any story).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1981 09:37:54-EDT
From: cfh at CCA-UNIX (Christopher Herot)
Subject: Lauren's DREAM MACHINE


And the advertisements for it will say

 "Finish life at home in your spare time".

------------------------------

Date: 12-Oct-1981
From: JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL
Reply-to: "PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: G(l)ORy Road

<enter controversy mode>

        Although I have never read any of the GOR series (an ommission
I do not intend to remedy) I would be inclined to support the
viewpoint that the author really did believe in the tenets on which
the books are based.
        I base this bigoted assumption on the belief that very few
authors can write even one book, let alone a whole series, in which
the "hero" holds radically different views from the author.
        For further evidence in support of this outrageous claim, one
has to look no further than such Heinlein classics as "Stranger in a
Strange Land" or "Time Enough for Love". I cringe every time I read
one of these books, because I am totally unconvinced that Heinlein
really believes in the idea that sex is something that can be freely
and guiltlessly enjoyed by two (or more) people simply because they
like each other enough and happen to be in the same place at the same
time. The scenes in his books seem to me either to be written "from
the outside" in a disgustingly voyeuristic fashion in the same way
that one would describe "quaint" habits of an alien species, or even
more disgusting (and Freudian) cathartic wish-fulfilment as when
Lazarus Long lays his own mother!

<leave controversy mode>

------------------------------

Date: 14 October 1981 05:09-EDT
From: Robert Elton Maas <REM at MIT-MC>
Subject: The real reason why the Sun doesn't output neutrinos

Indeed the Sun stopped burning hydrogen a few million years ago and
has been collapsing and converting gravitational potential energy into
heat ever since then, just like it did before it started buring
hydrogen 4.5 billion years ago.

Neutrinos tend to inhibit development of intelligence, because they
cause all this inverse beta decay in random places, upsetting
well-conceived plans of mice and men.  Apes and humans started to
evolve after the neutrino bombardment stopped, that's why the
conicidence of us being here thinking about the Sun just a few million
years after it went out.  It's not a coincidence, it's just we
couldn't possibly have evolved except immediately after the Sun went
out.  100 million years before the extinction of the dinosaurs (caused
by the loss of heat from the Sun), all those horrible neutrinos were
flooding this planet, preventing the formation of stable inteligence;
100 million years hence, it'll be too cold here.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1981 0555-PDT
From: ADPSC at USC-ISI (Don)
Subject: Mag article re future fauna (strictly FYI)

The current issue of Smithsonian Magazine (Oct 81) contains an
interesting article about a soon to be published book called
"After Man: The Zoology of the Future".  It discusses
possiibilities for the evolution of fauna and treads that middle
ground somewhere among fact, fiction, foolishness, fantasy, and
science fiction . All in all worth seeing if you have it around.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1981 00:02 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Nimoy escapes Star Trek

We've all heard how Leonard Nimoy is said to want to escape his role
as 'Spock'.  Well, the other day while passing through a tavern I
heard a familar voice - there was L.N. touting some television
company.  The advertisement played heavily on Star Trek.  I did not
get a good look at it, but I think it did not go so far as to give him
pointy eyebrows.  The most distinctive ST aspect was a profile
silhouette of LN holding a TV remote control as if it were a
tricorder.  The ad copy seemed to play on the angle that Spock
approved of the technology used in the TVs.

------------------------------

Date:  3-Oct-81  2:43:27 PDT (Saturday)
Subject: Query--Rewritten SF Stories
From: Ron Newman <Newman.ES at Parc-Maxc>

While we're talking about series, I'd like to know what SF stories
have been rewritten and re-issued by the original author.  To show
what I mean, I'll list the only two examples that I know of:

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a book called AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT,
involving (among other things) the effects of immortality on human
societies, then rewrote it and re-issued it as THE CITY AND THE STARS.
Both books were about the same length, both shared the same setting
and some of the main characters, but the plot details differed.

More recently, Clarke wrote a short story called THE SENTINEL, then
expanded it into the full-length novel 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY.

Can anyone come up with some more examples of rewritten SF?

/Ron

------------------------------

Date:  3 Oct 1981 1158-PDT
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: rewritten sf

Bester's GOLEM 100 is a rehash of his story "The Four-Hour Fugue".
Ellison's forthcoming BLOOD'S A ROVER is a full-length version of his
story "A Boy and His Dog". I'm sure there are many others.

I wish SF writers would get off the sequel/prequel/rewrite wagon; it
tends to stagnate the field when 80% of the books nominated for the
fiction Hugo are one of these; however, apparently it has been
profitable, so I must ascribe this to the poor taste of the readers in
continually patronizing such works. One of my old habits is to avoid
these as much as possible. Probably the last one I'll read for quite a
while is Varley's DEMON, not because I think it will be good (I didn't
think TITAN or WIZARD were), but more to follow his development as an
author.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1981 2237-PDT
From: Dick Gabriel <RPG at SU-AI>
Subject: What's all this...

What's all this I keep hearing about RPG's in SF-LOVERS?????????


Is this the result of OMNI publishing the AIWORD file?

    From: Daniel Breslau <BRESLA at MIT-AI>
         ...But because the nature of RPG's isn't well undertood
    by common folk, we all came in for some undue publicity.

"Stormbringer" has never published anything about or by me yet:

    From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
    Subject:  "Stormbringer" RPG publisher

I knew the ladies enjoyed my company, but `fantasy RPGs'??? And I know
I play a mean game of volleyball, but `diehard military historian',
`battle simulation'?  No woman I've ever bedded would accept a
`historical simulation' (though maybe `hysterical stimulation'):

    From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
    Subject: Thoughts on RPGs
            One possible reason for the increase in the number of
    fantasy RPGs as opposed to historical simulations is that unless
    one is a diehard military historian of some sort, there is far
    less variety in battle simulations than in fantasy
    environments....

RPGing??? I don't even know what that means, but you'll hear from my
attorney in the morning, gentlemen:

    ...This means that you can sell your games not only to those
    people who are new to wargaming and RPGing, but also to people who
    are already caught up in this sort of thing.

I doubt I'd like it, there are enough monsters around Stanford as it
is for me:

            Finally, two environments which I think might be
    interesting for RPGs are Alan Dean Foster's Midworld (lots of
    interesting monsters running around, even if it is a little short
    on magic--maybe some offworld tools could be brought in for
    effect) and Jack Vance's world of the Dragon Masters (cf. Hugo
    Winners II).

                        -rpg-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #90
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 OCT 1981 0801-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #90
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 17 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:
                          SF Books - Series,
               SF Topics - SF Universes as D&D Worlds &
            Physics Today (Sun) & Physics Tomorrow (Time)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 14 Oct 1981 11:56-PDT
From: chris at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Series


        Since people seem to be mentioning a number of fantasy works
in their lists I'd like to add three juvenile fantasy series.

        The first is OZ, which wanders between fantasy and sf,
depending on how you define magic and science (is it magic if magic is
a natural law in OZ, or science?).  All thirteen or fourteen of the
Frank L. Baum books are wonderful, and on rereading "Dorothy and the
Wizard in OZ" I was struck by the resemblance of this particular book
to the wanderings of John Carter on Barsoom -- the unbelievable
creatures and narrow escapes of both Burroughs and Baum are exuberent
flights of imagination.  I also like the Ruth Plumly Thompson Oz books
written after Baum's death -- but my husband despises them.

        The other two series are both pseudo-Arthurian fantasies.
Susan Cooper's five books (Over Sea, Over Stone; The Dark is Rising,
Greenwitch, The Grey King, and Silver on the Tree) combine a view of
old, new, high, light and dark magic, with old magic being natural
magic and neutral, new magic being intellectual (spells and naming) to
control the forces of old magic, light and dark magic are both new
magic, but on different sides, and high magic holds the veto power
over light and dark, but while it would like to side with the light,
must judge impartially all aspects of the universe.  All of the books
are set in present-day England or Wales; the second is the best
(although I have the same reservations about the image of Christianity
raised in it that I had in Dragonslayer -- why bring it up and invest
it with reverent respect if you are going to show that it is
powerless?).  The imagery of "The Dark is Rising" is gorgeous; I liked
"The Grey King", but found "Silver on the Tree", the final book, too
chaotic and anti-climactic, totally unworthy of the problems raised.
Those who are familiar with Alan Garner's "Wierdstone of Brisengamen"
and "The Moon of Gomrath" will find a number of similarities in the
Cooper books.

        One of my favorite "loose" series -- books related by
character and/or location but not necessarily direct sequels (like the
L'Engle books I have mentioned before) are the Jane Louise Curry
"Abaloc" books.  These combine Welsh mythology -- both Arthur and the
Twylyth a Teg or Elvish tales -- with American Indian mythology --
specifically the mound cultures of the central Ohio valley and the
Aztec sun-worshippers.  The related books are:

        "Over the Edge of the Sea"  which takes place in the 12th and
                                    20th centuries, in both Wales and
                                    America
        "The Sleepers"              purely 20th century Arthurian
        "The Change-Child"          16th century Wales/Twylyth a Teg
        "Beneath the Hill"          20th century Pennsylvania Welsh
    A 1 "The Daybreakers"           12th and 20th century America
    A 2 "The Watchers"              12th and 20th century America
    A 3 "The Birdstones"            12th and 20th century America
    B 1 "The Wolves of Aam"         Ice Age America
    B 2 "The Shadow Dancers"        Ice Age America

Series A 1-3 are directly related with the same characters and
locations; series B 1-2 are also directly related to one another (B-2
is not yet in print).  The books occasionally break into one another
-- the end of "Daybreakers" is simultaneous with the end of "Over the
Edge of the Sea".  Only by reading all of them is it possible to get a
sense of the historical sequence of events, and the story is by no
means finished -- but Curry is writing other things lately.

        I would also vote for Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern
series -- including the juvenile trilogy, which is really well done
and uniformly good.

        Sylvia Engdahl has written two two-book series, "The
Enchantress From the Stars" is a well-worked out universe in which
members of the "anthropology" Service study and manipulate events on
under-developed planets; "This Star Shall Abide/Beyond the Tomorrow
Mountains" presents an interesting cultural confrontation between a
technological city and the surrounding rural countryside in a
situation where equal distribution of the technological conveniences
available would lead to destruction of human life on the planet.

        I find on the whole that fantasy (but not science fiction)
written for the juvenile audience is much better done than adult
fantasy -- maybe my peurile tastes showing. I couldn't get through the
first sixty pages of either "Gormenghast" or "The Worm Ouroburoughs".

        You might include in lists of Asimov's Foundation/Empire books
"Currents of Space" and "The Stars like Dust" which also take place in
the same universe.  They are not so tightly woven into the structure,
and not as compelling.  On the other hand, all of the robot stories
and the two Elijah Bailey robot novels -- "Caves of Steel" and "The
Naked Sun" are good, and the last two rank as examples of a
little-worked genre, the sf mystery novel--to which genre Asimov has
also added a number of Wendell Urth stories.

        I always make at least one gross error per SF-Lovers mailing
-- and I stand corrected; it was not "Wedge" Darklighter, but "Biggs".
On the other hand, the origin of the initials TIE for Imperial Fights
was what I claimed -- the Twin-Ion Engine is a later justification.  I
notice that Kenner is selling Imperial Walker models under the name AT
AT machines -- something like All- Terrain Attack/Transport vehicles,
again a post-creation justification.

        Lastly, (this partially in answer to Earl [Boebert.SCOMP @
MIT- Multics, SF-LOVERS #67) I mentioned above the Curry books overlap
events -- the same scene is described from different characters in
different books.  This also happens in Anne McCaffrey's Pern books --
the juvenile books "Dragonsong" and "Dragonsinger" overlap events of
"Dragonflight" and "Dragonquest" -- the impression of Ruth and Jaxom
is told from a child's point of view both times, but the characters
are on opposite sides of the arena, and the resulting difference in
perspective (based on both location and background of events known to
the characters) is very interesting.  "Enchantress from the Stars" is
"written" by three of the characters involved, in report style, so the
same events are described several times.

        Has anybody out there seen K. Williams "Masquerade"?  Does
anybody understand it yet?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1981 1932-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Darkover series and Marion Zimmer Bradley

     Forgive this 3,636-or-so character flame, but it's a topic I
haven't seen appear in SF-LOVERS yet and I think it's important.

     Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Ms. Bradley who stated (in
a Westercon or Worldcon panel about authorship last yet) that she
considered ANY use of her universe (the Darkover universe) to be
theft?  I remember that it was a well-known female SF author, and she
took a very aggressive stance on how an aspiring author must create
his [for simplicity, I will use the traditional form of masculine
pronouns for a non-gender reference] own worlds.  That was fine; but
then she went on to reject the concept that a person could even write
a [Darkover] story for his own enjoyment, or for a fanzine.  In fact,
she stated that her reaction when a fan sent her a [Darkover] story
her reaction was to consider legal action.

     This attitude struck me the wrong way; I'm pretty sure it was
Bradley, which is probably why I have yet to read any Darkover
stories.  My natural reaction when I read truly absorbing SF/Fantasy
(Middle Earth, Pern, Thomas Covenant) is to envision my own stories in
that world.  I might also write a parody of that world; my "Software
Wars" has had some popularity in various computer centers.  If I come
up with something that I feel is truly worthwhile, I just might want
to send it to the author that invented the world.  I wouldn't have any
intention of marketing that story; I'd just be trying to demonstrate
my affection for the author's work.

     It would be NICE if the author took the time to read the story,
and perhaps comment on it (such as how well I was able to pick up
characterizations or the "internals" of that world); at worst he could
just consign it to the circular file.  Ms. Bradley did mention the
possiblity of author feedback in this case, and said it would do
nothing to help an aspiring author.  Perhaps for a novelist that would
be correct but for a scriptwriter that is an essential skill.  Too
many stories have been destroyed in their movie version by
scriptwriters who couldn't "plagiarize" well enough; The Lord of the
Rings movie being a recent example.

     I think the author might get something out of it as well; he
could get some feedback as to how well he impressed the "internals" of
his world or his characterizations of his readers.

     Oh, I know what Ms. Bradley was objecting to; the crude stories
published in some fanzines which are often distort or debase the world
(the Trekkie 'zines come immedately to mind, especially the endless
"seduction of Spock" stories).  But her attitude is just too much!
Tolkien was perhaps the most hard-pressed author in this respect, and
his problems were compounded by his not really understanding the
generation which took his work to heart.  While he rarely answered
letters personally -- Joy Hill usually took care of it -- he would
read his mail and would give Ms. Hill a few notes to go on.  Also, he
(even through Ms. Hill) was courteous.

     I hope I'm not doing dirt on the wrong author.  If I am perhaps I
should go and read some of the Darkover books.  But if I'm not than
Ms. Bradley has missed out on getting a reader (as well as a person
who recommends books to other readers) in her zeal to persecute her
fans in the name of avoiding plagiarism.  I don't see how what she's
doing benefits her (after all, the kind of people who would write
Darkover stories would undoubtably want to buy all of her's), and it
poisons the author/reader relationship enough to have alienated at
least one potenial reader.

-- Mark --

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1981 01:44:58-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Sunspots

MENLO PARK, Calif. (UPI) -- Are solar flares responsible for
earthquakes, human illnesses, and even crime sprees?  One researcher
says yes and Gov. Edmund G. Brown Jr. is so intrigued he's invited her
to testify before the California Assembly on earthquake prediction.

But fellow scientists are openly skeptical and say the findings by
Marsha Adams, a biologist and systems analyst with the research firm
of SRI International, are just "too bizarre."

Ms. Adams, 37, says her research shows solar flares -- which are
released by violent storms on the sun -- could trigger earthquakes
worldwide, including one along California's San Andreas Fault, by
pelting them with low-frequency radio signals associated with solar
flareups.

These same ultra-low frequency signals, she said, could create a
"resonance" with the brain wave activity of humans.  As a result,
people who are "solar sensitive" may experience severe depression or
flu-like symptoms.

She also predicted during the weekend that solar activity would be
unusually active over the next 18 months.  [Aside to HUMAN-NETters: so
much for journalists who use the English language a precision tool.
Unless it really is the *activity* that will be active....]

Ms. Adams, who has been working on her theory for seven years, said
she used computers to correlate solar activity to everything from
quakes to airline accidents to crime statistics.

She found that fatigue, unusual weather, electrical malfunctions,
building collapses, riots and political instability -- among other
things -- were related to solar activity.

Brown was sufficiently impressed to ask Ms. Adams for a briefing.  She
also was invited to describe her earthquake prediction work on Oct. 9
before California's Assembly Committee on Governmental Operations.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 18 September 1981  00:38-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Communication between past and future

(This was inspired by reading TimeScape, but is not a spoiler:)

In a completely deterministic universe (i.e. whatever has happened is
fixed, if you go back in time it's because you WERE there, and if you
try to shoot your grandfather you'll miss for sure), it is possible to
talk between the future and the past by the following interesting
method.

Scientist A, in the future has a tachyon transmitter, with which he
can send messages to scientist B in the past.  Scientist B builds a
FULLY AUTOMATIC recording machine, which will take the messages
received for A and write each one on a separate page of a book.  B
sets up his recorder and lets it run until he has filled his book.  B
then buys a blank book: he will write in the pages of the book, then
he will put it in a safe place where A can find it years later.

A finds B's book (the one B wrote in), but does not read it.  Instead
he buys a blank book: when he is done writing in it he will give it to
his transmitter, which will transmit the contents back in time where
they will be transcribed by B's machine.

Now, a conversation: B opens the first page of the book transcribed
from A. On it is a statement from A.  B writes a reply in the first
page of his (blank) book.  B then looks at page two of the book from
A.  On page 2 is a reply to the message that B wrote on page 1.  B
writes a reply to this on page 2 of his book, and reads the answer on
page 3 of A's (transcribed) book.  A (has read/will read) B's book,
page one, and write a reply on A's page 2 which (has been/ will be)
transmitted back to B.  A conversation of any length can be conducted
this way using only one bulk transfer of information into the past.
(Of course, A and B have to be honest and not look ahead in the
book...)

                            Ken

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #91
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 OCT 1981 0443-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #91
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 18 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Rewritten (2001/The Bloody Sun/The City and the Stars/
            Monument/Dreamsnake),  SF Topics - Dreaming &
    SF Universes as D&D Worlds & Physics Tomorrow (Ocean Mining),
           SF Movies - Heavy Metal,  SF Music - Heavy Metal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 16:18:46-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: rewritten sf

   It's not quite accurate to say that "The Sentinel" (actually a
short-short in a cycle about the first moon landings) was expanded
into 2001; most of 2001 came from Kubrick, with Clarke rationalizing
some of the wilder things in the novelization of the movie (and adding
a little old-fashioned hard science, like the Discovery pickiong up
extra momentum by diving around Jupiter).
   Instant example: THE BLOODY SUN by Marion Zimmer Bradley, expanded
ca. 50% but reappeared under the same title. (I think THE CITY AND THE
STARS was actually significantly longer (30%?) than AGAINST THE FALL
OF NIGHT.) More to come?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 16:25:56-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: rewrites 2

   Lloyd Biggle's MONUMENT is an excellent expansion of the
germ-of-an-idea in the short story from ANALOG (maybe the same title?)
   Vonda McIntyre's Hugo-winner DREAMSNAKE was an extension (not
really an expansion, but in one unit) of "Of Mist, and Grass, and
Sand".

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 1638-EDT
From: G.PALEVICH at MIT-EECS
Subject: Wanting a refund

        I think Harlan Ellison had a story where the hero wakes up
after a dream-life on earth (essentially wishing to demand a refund)
only to find that life elsewhere is infinitly worse.  Perhaps you
should count your blessings.

        This seems to be a case where Occam's razor applies -- if it
is just as good as reality it <really> doesn't matter.
------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 16:37:23-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: 1-author series

   I don't know who you were listening to, but it certainly wasn't the
Marion Zimmer Bradley of \\this// universe. I can imagine it being
Jackie Lichtenberg, who is an arrogant @#$%!, even though she's done
well by snipping of bits of Darkover (and lots of its fandom).

   In my experience (going back to meeting her at the first Darkover
Grand Council Meeting (= convention) in July 1978), MZB has very
little critical judgment about the types who infest her
universe---videlicet the collection of Darkover [mostly fan-]fiction,
THE KEEPER'S PRICE, which has some great stuff and some really
dreadful (what I considered the best and the second-worst stories were
both written by a Patricia Matthews; the worst was a
Lichtenberg-Lorrah collaboration). She doesn't even object to
outrageous mixing of universes (the bad Matthews was an attempt to
link Zenna Henderson's People with Darkover; my recollection is that
it also specifically fouled up the Alton chronology).

  JL is the only other woman I can think of who is known for a
universe with a lot of fans wanting to get in; it might be worthwhile
for you to write someone on the con committee and try to find out who
was that unmasked woman.

   How could I have forgotten Anne McCaffrey when listing women with
fan-infested series?!? But I wouldn't have expected her to show up at
a Westercon, since she lives in Ireland and doesn't even make Boskones
very often any more.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 1744-PDT
From:  William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>
Subject: Bradley being a posesive bitch about Darkover

I don't think it was Bradley.  If I may quote from the introduction of
"The Keepers Price" (A collection of Darkover short stories, most NOT
by Bradley):

---------

"In a very real sense, I regard myself not as the 'inventor' of
Darkover, but its discoverer.  If others wish to play in my fantasy
world, who am I to slam its gates and in churlish voice demand they
build their own?  If they are capable of it, they will do so someday.
Meanwhile, if they wish to write of Darkover, they will.

"All the selfish exclusiveness of the Conan Doyle estate has not
stopped lovers of Sherlock Holmes from writing their own stories and
secretly sharing them.  Why should I deny myself the pleasure of
seeing these young writers learning to do their thing by, for a little
while, doing @i(my) thing with me."
----------

I do not consider myself a "fan" of Bradley, but I have been impressed
by her aparent philosophies as expressed in the introductions to her
books.

Bill W

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 1981 15:03:22-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!smb c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: science vs. science fiction

In the Sept. 19 "Science News", there is a negative report on the
feasibility of extracting uranium from seawater via land-based pumping
stations.  Arther Clarke wrote about mining the oceans in "The Man Who
Ploughed the Sea", in "Tales from the White Heart" -- and he also
picked uranium as the element of interest.  But Clarke suggested
building the extraction mechanisms into a boat, killing two birds with
one stone -- propulsion and mining.  Neither source gives enough data
to let me compare their results....

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1981 0024-PDT
From: Gabe L. Newell <H.HARVARD at SU-LOTS>
Reply-to: "H.HARVARD at SU-LOTS in care of" <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: An unpublished review of the movie "Heavy Metal"


    I have been doing some reviews for the Daily over the summer,  and
I wrote a  fairly long  review of  "Heavy Metal"  and its  soundtrack,
which was  not  printed  because  there  wasn't  enough  room  in  the
entertainment pages.  So here it is for anyone who is interested.


Gabe L. Newell
Movie review: Heavy Metal
8/8/81


    This is going to be a two  for the price of one review, of  sorts.
Since Columbia  Pictures and  Elektra/Asylum Records  have decided  to
bury every newspaper on the planet hip deep in "Heavy Metal" publicity
releases, this humble reporter received  not only two free tickets  to
go see the  movie, but  also the  soundtrack, featuring  all sorts  of
heavy metal type groups, two posters, three pamphlets, eighteen  photo
stills, one letter, and, at no extra cost, a Ginzu chef's knife.

    My fearless leader and editor thought  that it would be nice if  I
would  do  a  review  of  both  the  album  and  the  movie,   thereby
incidentally saving the Daily the extra $1.37 they would have paid  me
for two articles.

    Even though I  have always thought  that heavy metal  had as  much
going for it as a style of music as lizard mutilation has as a form of
religious expression,  I agreed.   (It  was either  agree or  do  John
Denver and Dolly Parton reviews  for the rest of  my life.)  So off  I
went to the theatre, to stand in line with the leather-wearing, chain-
toting, Coors-swigging motorcycle  gang, the  horde of  pimpley-faced,
adolescent males getting heavily into the standing-around-and-looking-
dull-and-wimpy action, and  the one or  two over-twenty-five  grownups
with the severe-hormonal-imbalance-that-causes-them-to-limp-and-drool-
and-make-sage-statements-about-today's-youth.

    "Oh, goody, this  is going to  be even more  fun than I  thought,"
said this reporter to himself.

    And then the movie started.

               *                  *                   *

    An hour and a half of  sex, violence, heroes, bad guys, and  women
with breasts the size of watermelons.

               *                  *                   *

    Believe it or  not, I liked  "Heavy Metal."  In  fact, I liked  it
enough to have gone back and seen  it a second time.  It is  creative,
humorous, fast-paced, flashy,  etc...  etc...   It is  not exactly  an
intellectually challenging film, nor is it a movie that will appeal to
an extremely  broad  segment of  the  population.  In  fact,  I  still
haven't decided what was good about  the film, what was mediocre,  and
what was really awful.  In other words I have mixed feelings.

    The animation and the artwork are  easy to talk about.  They  were
very good.  The eight episodes of the movie were based on stories  and
art by five different cartoonists from the magazine of the same  name.
Michael Gross, the production designer  for the film, managed to  give
"Heavy Metal" an  overall artistic continuity  while still  preserving
the stylistic characteristics  of the  original stories.   Comparisons
and references to the early Disney  films run rampant through all  the
releases Columbia has sent  us, and the analogy  is fair.  Anyone  who
was turned off of the entire idea of fantasy animation by the  various
pieces of  garbage that  Ralph Bakshi  has been  turning out  will  be
gladdened to see the care with which "Heavy Metal" has been made.

    The stories themselves  aren't so  easy to  analyze.  They  ranged
from hack-slash  sword-and-sorcery ("Den"  and "Taarna"),  to  creepy-
crawly horror  ("B-17"),  to  pseudo sci-fi  cultural  satire  ("Harry
Canyon").  In "Den"  and "Harry Canyon"  the characterizations of  the
principal heroes are quite good, the plots are tight and  interesting,
and there is a feeling  of "reality," or of  "reality" that is on  the
same order as  that of  a non-animated  film.  At  the other  extreme,
"Taarna," the last, longest, and weakest of the episodes,  degenerates
into a  mindless  cartoon of  exquisitely  drawn women,  battles,  and
scenic vistas.  All of  the episodes suffer  from the relatively  flat
depictions  of  extraneous  characters'  personas,  relying  more   on
fantastic art work to pull the movie along.

    And now to the music.
    Somebody must have come  up with a  pile of money  to pay for  all
these bands;  Black  Sabbath, Blue  Oyster  Cult, Cheap  Trick,  Devo,
Donald Fagen (of Steely Dan), Don  Felder (of the Eagles), Grand  Funk
Railroad, Sammy  Hagar, Journey,  Nazareth, Stevie  Nicks, Riggs,  and
Trust.  Whether they got their money's worth is debatable.

    Journey plays one track on the album (one too many), and it pretty
much cinches up their drive to win  the Debbie Boone crown of rock  'n
roll.  "Open Arms" is sooooooo bad that it doesn't even deserve to  be
on the same album with  Cheap Trick.  Basically this particular  track
has nothing going for it at all, and I doubt that it will get much air
play on even the most Clearasil-oriented AM radio stations.

    Grand Funk  Railroad  - "Queen  Bee,"  Black Sabbath  -  "The  Mob
Rules," Riggs - "Heartbeat," Sammy Hagar - "Heavy Metal," ---- Utterly
forgettable  and   typical  examples   of  your   basic  heavy   metal
stomp-stomp-stomp, screaming  guitar,  silly  lyrics  song.   See  Van
Halen's first album for the same thing, only a lot better.

    Riggs - "Radar Rider"  This was the opening track of the album and
the movie, and it wasn't half bad.  It at least got your feet tapping,
even if  it was  merely  another rendition  of  boy meets  guitar  and
proceeds to see how loudly he can  play it.  Riggs is a new band  that
hails from Atlanta, and for those of you who like this sort of  music,
their debut album should  be coming out soon  on the Full  Moon/Warner
Brothers label.

    Devo - "Through Being Cool" and "Working in the Coal Mine" I still
haven't quite figured out why Devo is lurking around on a heavy  metal
soundtrack.  "Through Being Cool" is heard in the movie, but does  not
appear on the soundtrack,  and "Working in the  Coal Mine" is used  as
filler during  the final  credits, yet  shows up  on the  sound  track
anyhow.  Confusing.  Since I have always been a closet Devo fan it was
sad to see the Spudboys continuing down the road to formulization  and
pop cliches.  Both songs are  catchy, will probably be mildy  popular,
and are on  the same level  as popcorn for  their overall texture  and
substance.

    Donald Fagen - "True Companion"  If I was confused to find Devo on
this album,  I was  annoyed to  find Donald  Fagen.  Sounding  like  a
rehash of every Steely Dan song ever done, "True Companion" had myself
and my roommates climbing the walls of our trailer in no time at  all.
After hearing the  album for the  third time, we  began skipping  over
"True Companion" even if  it meant getting up  from a serious game  of
Diplomacy and changing the record.

    Don Felder - "Heavy Metal (Taking a Ride)" and "All of You," Cheap
Trick - "Reach Out" and "I Must  Be Dreaming"  These were the best, by
far, of all the songs on the album.  These songs are good ole rock and
roll with enough variety and originality to make them worth  listening
to, even if the rest of  the album could be classed under  "Retreads."
Felder does get old fairly fast,  but the Cheap Trick tracks are  good
for a long, long time.

    Blue Oyster  Cult -  "Veteran  of the  Psychic Wars,"  Nazareth  -
"Crazy," and Stevie Nicks  - "Blue Lamp"  These  are the good, but not
great songs  of  the album.   Each  is  a little  different  from  the
standard material  that  these artists  turn  out, but  not  different
enough to startle any  of the fans, who  basically wanted more of  the
same anyhow.  These are the sort of songs about which people will say,
"Hey, isn't that . . ."


    The bottom line on all  this is that if  you think you might  like
the movie, you probably will.  If  you know you won't like the  movie,
you most definitely will  not.  And if you  aren't sure, go ahead  and
see it.  "Heavy Metal" is at least unusual and creative enough that it
will be a movie that you won't regret spending the money to see.


P.S.  This was only the first draft, and unedited to boot, so in parts
it is still  a little weak.   I hope  that whoever reads  this gets  a
decent idea of what the movie is like.


                        H.Harvard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #92
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 OCT 1981 0645-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #92
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:
              SF Books - Author Query & Series(Narnia) &
          Rewritten (Dreamsnake/In the Ocean of the Night),
       SF Music - Star Trek Theme,  SF TV - The Phantom Empire,
                      SF Movies - Heavy Metal &
       New (Shock Treatment/Dune/Saturday the 14th/Screamers),
  SF Topics - Animation & Leonard Nimoy: I Am Not Spock & Dreaming &
        SF Universes as D&D Worlds,  Humor - Watt's in space,
     Random Topics - Asimov on Computer Security & SF and Sexism
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1981 09:25 PDT
From: Coleman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: A Question or two.

Do any of you know the author of a short story call "The Forever
House"?  It was published a long time ago (~20 years) in F&SF or
Astounding (Analog) or Galaxy.  Two old people live in a house (in
Canada?)-that is guaranteed to last forever--and does.  A friend of
mine asked if I could find out the author, date and whether or not
this was ever put into a book?

                Thanks,
                Michele

PS. The same friend asked why none of you mentioned Ark II in the
discussion of good children's TV shows.  It was fairly recent and was
the story of a mixed group of people and an intelligent chimp that
roll around Earth (or someplace) in a tank/living place having
adventures and trying to help people.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 81 13:01:38-EDT (Wed)
From: Greg.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: Star Trek

        Does any one remember the start of the Star Trek series?  You
know "Space, the Final..."  If you do could you send me a copy?


                                Power to the Turbos

                                        greg

[ Please send all responses to this query to Greg, not to the digest.
  --  Jim ]
------------------------------

Date:  17 October 1981 22:39 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  The Phantom Empire

The PBS show "Mantinee at the Bijou" is running the serial of this
title.  It is an SF/Oater/Cliffhanger about a advanced underground
civilization that just happens to be under Gene Autry's Radio Ranch.
Enough cardboard special effects and wooden dialogue for the hardest
core camp fanatic.  Neither to be missed nor watched while sober.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 18 October 1981 2307-EDT (Sunday)
From: David.Lamb at CMU-10A
Subject:  Dreamsnake

"Dreamsnake" isn't quite a rewrite of "Of Mist, Grass, and Sand."  It
includes two other short stories, "The Serpent's Death" from Analog
February 1978, and "The Broken Dome" from Analog March 1978.  It's a
reasonably good example of working related short stories into a novel.
I tried to think of other examples of this, and could only come up
with "In the Ocean of Night" by Gregory Benford.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 1917-EDT
From: Mark W. Terpin <MARKT at MIT-XX>
Subject: Juvenile fantasy series

        A series that I think deserves mention is C.S Lewis's
Chronicles of Narnia, which has 7 books.  A cartoon version of the
first book in the series (The Lion , Witch & Wardrobe) was on TV a
while back.  It was pretty good, I thought, except for the battle
scenes, which were wimpy but better than those of the "Hobbit"
cartoon. (Do there exist any good cartoon battle scene?  Does Heavy
Metal have any?)
        Anyhow, the following six books recount more experiences of
the friends of Narnia through travels, battles, enchantments, etc.
The style of writing, similar to that of the Hobbit, becomes a little
tiresome at times, but the adventures are interesting overall.  The
final book, "The Last Battle", is much more allegorical than the rest,
I wonder if ten-year-olds really understand or care about all that
Christian symbolism and revelationism.  It exists in the other 6
books, also, but not to such an extent. (for example, it's not too
hard to figure out who Aslan really Is.)

                                -Mark

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1981 2247-EDT
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-20C>
Subject: Heavy Metal & current animation

        Yes, I liked it.  Yes, I think it has large flaws.  One of the
reasons I like it is the further work I hope it will stimulate (of
course, I felt the same way about Wizards).  One of the flaws is the
use of art and characters that were already used in different
settings.  Not only was this jarring, but in some cases I thought that
the original stories were better.

        I found mention, in  some not-too-recent (and  forgotten)
publication, that Ralph Bakshi is (was?) gearing up his production
company to do a string of feature animations.  The idea is to plan for
enough work to keep his people together.   Related or not, it  is
claimed by the Lord of the Rings fan newsletter that a sequel of sorts
is still in the works, but likely won't get started until sometime
into 1982.  I wonder how much grief has been caused by the activities
of Rankin-(may their cells rot)Bass.

        Printed rumors culled from Fangoria:

        "October..brings the release of Shock Treatment, the follow-up
        to Rocky Horror Picture Show...
        ...Dune will finally go into production.  Universal and Dino
        Delaurentis have reconfirmed their commitment to this movie,
        set for a $30 million budget split between the two and set to
        begin filming in the Spring of 1982 with filming to take place
        in both North Africa and Europe.
                Ridley Scott was drafting a script and was signed to
        direct when the project was put on hold  (Delaurentis was
        concentrating on Conan and Ragtime).  He signed to direct
        Blade Runner for filmways and is committed to the project, now
        at the Ladd Co. until the end of 1982, and Delaurentis will
        not wait.
                Replacing the talented Scott is the equally talented
        David Lynch who received an Academy Award nomination for his
        direction of The Elephant Man. Lynch, who also co-wrote that
        film and directed Eraserhead, will have a hand in the Dune
        script.
                Saturday the 14th [now in release?-G.] is a straight
        comedy starring Paula Prentiss and Richard Benjamin...  The
        story concerns itself with people trying to get their hands on
        The Book of Evil, including vampires, demons, and mischievous
        cildren [sic].  ....
                Coming in time for Halloween is an all star comedy,
        Thursday the 12th, featuring Tommy Smothers, Kay Ballard, Eve
        Arden, and Tab Hunter among others."
        "...New World [Pictures] reached new pinnacles of-let's call
        it "creativity"-in their ads, particularly in the ads for Isle
        of the Fishmen, now retitled Screamers. [currently playing-G.]
                'WARNING: In this film you will actually see a man
        turned inside out' declare the ads, and, while the poster art
        depicts a rather neat-looking corpse, there is nothing in the
        film that remotely resembles the art or that fulfills that
        warning. Trailers and TV ads for the film even had scenes that
        appear nowhere in the film (though this is not new for New
        World, it's never been done quite so blatantly as it is for
        Screamers)."
        *******

                Harumph.  Just who can you trust, these days?
        There is also a mention of a film Howard the Duck, implying
that the fowl would be portrayed by a combination of puppet (a la
Yoda) and suits.  (Is Kenny Baker small enough?)


        "No, believe only HALF of what you see."
                        Burt Lancaster(?) in The Crimson Pirate


                                                Hoo-hah!
                                                Gene

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1981 1829-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: Cartoon From San Francisco Chronicle

Picture James Watt (Sec. Of The Interior) sitting at his desk watching
TV.  He appears to be watching coverage of Voyager's flyby of some
planets.  He thinks to himself....

"It's incredible what Voyager is telling us about other planets --
hot, dense atmospheres of carbon dioxide with sulfuric acid clouds
gathered over waterless surfaces pockmarked with craters and whipped
by huge dust storms!!"

A moment passes and a big smile comes over his face and he has another
thought..

"God willing we can do the same thing right here on Earth!"

------------------------------

Date: 16-Oct-1981
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX
Reply-to: "PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Isaac Asimov, computer security, and trends
         in electronic technology

Isaac Asimov has published an excellent short story relating to
computer security in the October 14, 1981 issue of EDN Magazine.  The
story is entitled "A Perfect Fit" and appears on page 266.  The
remainder of the issue is also quite interesting, discussing trends in
electronic technology over the next 25 years.

------------------------------

Date: 13 October 1981 20:33 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (Seth A. Steinberg)
Subject: Sex Roles and Heart Disease

The mysterious falling of heart disease rates in men can be correlated
with the increase in woman's rights.  It has been falling since women
got the vote in the U.S. and has been lower every year.  Granted it
did not rise dramatically in the late 40's when Rosie the Riveter was
told that since she had done the impossible she had better stop doing
it but the rate did fall dramatically as the woman's movement
developed out of the anti-war movement in the late 60's.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 81 8:08:11-EDT (Wed)
From: Greg.bmd70 at BRL
Subject: Sexism & Racism & Left & Right & Up & Down & ...



XXXXXX  X    X   XXXX   X    X   XXXX   X    X            X
X       XX   X  X    X  X    X  X    X  X    X            X
XXXXX   X X  X  X    X  X    X  X       XXXXXX            X
X       X  X X  X    X  X    X  X  XXX  X    X            X
X       X   XX  X    X  X    X  X    X  X    X
XXXXXX  X    X   XXXX    XXXX    XXXX   X    X            X


                                Greg Hogg

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1981 1335-EDT
From: WATROUS at RUTGERS (Don Watrous)
Subject: Leonard Nimoy: I Am Not Spock

From Harvard Lampoon's People magazine parody:

        Star treks

        You may recognize him [picture with Spock ears drawn in
        accompanies article] as the pointy-eared officer from the
        starship Enterprise, but Leonard (Star Trek, Star Trek: the
        Motion Picture) Nimoy badly wishes to send that reputation to
        hyperspace.  After his book I Am Not Spock and the record I
        Am Not Spock were both attacked by Klingon-critics, Nimoy
        decided to blast-off a national tour of his new play.  Its
        title: I Am Not Spock.  It stars Nimoy as Not Spock.  "I am
        not Spock," said the actor with the austere, emotionless tone
        typical of his homeland, the planet Vulcan, "and it is highly
        illogical for humans to think of me as such."  The tour,
        which will last through the winter, plans to boldly go where
        no tour has gone before.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1981 18:32:41-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley (wm leler)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!wm c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: university of north carolina at chapel hill
Subject: LW's Dream Machine

Why should you spend 80 years living an illusion?

If some contraption has the power to control all your sensory
apparatus, wouldn't it be cleaner to just create the memory of doing
something?  I.e. the folks at ValHalla strap you into the machine,
wait five minutes, and away you walk, happily remembering the last 80
years you have spent as commander of the Enterprise.  Tommorow you go
back, and do it again, with another "universe".

There is a dark side to all of this, though.  I used to have
"daymares" (as in day dreaming) where I would think that I didn't
really exist yesterday.  Instead someone, as part of some scientific
experiment, installed in me the memory of having lived my life for the
past x years.  Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to do sociology
experiments?  The question was, can you really trust your memory?
Maybe those people who claim to be your parents are really just
confederates of the experimenters, or fellow test subjects.  I can
just see the scenario: "Ok, tomorrow we will create a bug in the C
compiler, to measure his mental response to stress".

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 1981 1925-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Admin.MRC at SU-SCORE>
Subject: 1-author series

    From replies I've gotten about my mention about an obnoxiously
possessive female author a few issues back, it seems fairly certain
that it wasn't Marion Zimmer Bradley.  I checked the program book for
LA Westercon last year, and I identified the panel.  The only female
author listed for that panel was Marta Randall, even though she isn't
identified as having created any major "worlds" in the sense that
other writers have.

     I guess I ought to read some Darkover stories...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #93
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 OCT 1981 0712-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #93
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Series(Narnia) & Rewritten (Flowers for Algernon),
                       SF Movies - Heavy Metal,
    SF Topics - Animation & SF Universes as D&D Worlds & Dreaming,
             SF Fandom - Society for Creative Anachronism
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday, 19 Oct 1981 09:05-PDT
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Narnia

I found the Narnia books offensively religious.  Of course, since I'm
not myself religious my objectivity may be in doubt.  But the whole
thing was so blatant and obvious that you couldn't enjoy the books on
their own without the symbolism jumping up out of the story and
smashing you in the face.

More interestingly, I was in Turkey last summer and discovered, to my
surprise, that the word for "lion" in Turkish is "aslan".

------------------------------

Date:  2 Sep 1981 0050-PDT
From: RODOF at USC-ECL
Subject: cheap animation

    (In case anyone is interested) Yes, the principle reason for
limited animation is cost.  Shooting in twos costs not half as much,
but in fact, scores of times less.  Shooting in twos cuts camera costs
in half, and has the additional result of looking jerky, so there is
no real reason to therefore do full animation.  Thus, the body is a
held cel and an arm is moved.  Also, to eliminate having to have a
bunch of expensive people around who can actually DRAW, motions are
not done that will require much more than tracing or Xeroxing.  (Don't
run into the camera, for instance.)  The company also draws up a
"stock" file of head turns, etc, that are supposed to be used wherever
possible.  In some shows, over 50% of the show is stock, on new
backgrounds.  It really starts to show after a while.  Next time you
watch a Saturday morning cartoon, try to figure out how many actual
drawings had to be done for the show, keeping in mind that all main
character close ups, walks, turns, and significant actions (The Lone
Ranger on a horse, Tarzan swinging) is all stock.  It's why they can
do six half-hour shows from script to final edit in three weeks --
approximately the same amount of time it takes all of Disney Studios
to produce two minutes of film.  Nobody said it had to be good -- you
can feed kids these days practically anything -- but it's faster than
hell and makes a bloody fortune -- especially, if as in the case of
Filmation, the company president uses his wife and kids as voiceover
actors.  They may be rotten, but it keeps the money in the family.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1981 12:15:19-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: "cheap" animation

HEY!  What's wrong with animation that puts an emphasis on well-done
backgrounds to the (relative) exclusion of moving figures?  There are
really only two possible objections that I can see, and one of them is
reasonable, maybe.  The first objection is that it is "cheap"--done to
cut costs.  Taken in a vacuum, this might be rephrased "Why didn't
they spend more money?"  Well, there are lots of ways to spend more
money, including throwing cocaine parties for the animators.  Needless
to say, this is not reasonable.
   It MIGHT be reasonable to say that shifting the emphasis to
backgrounds is artistically unsound.  But I say that is untrue in the
case of Heavy Metal.  First, much of the fixed work was exquisitely
done, to my uneducated eye.  Second, they made the most of it with a
very mobile camera (again, no trick, but effective nonetheless).
Thirdly, if they had tried to provide animated figures with the level
of detail in the backgrounds, they'd have failed miserably.  Look at
the title story, when the car drops out of the satellite.  It looks
bad, not just because it was done in twos, but because the lovely
airbrush work is jumping around like mad.  Can you IMAGINE trying to
animate the Taarna story like she appears on the poster?  No way!
   People who object to the animation on the grounds that they were
done cheaply should put more thought into separating means from ends.
What matters is the end result, not the effort or expense that went
into producing them.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1981 05:30:25-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley (Byron Howes)
Reply-to: "decvax!duke!unc!bch in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Life Imitates Art

Well Toto, it looks like we're still in Kansas!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1981 13:45:31-PDT
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry c/o"
          <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: "Live Rpg's";rewrites;Marion Zimmer Bradley

Greetings from Walnut Creek!

A few issues ago, mention was made of "live fantasy role-playing
games".  Since no-one else has brought it up, I would like to mention
the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.  The SCA is a non-profit
educational corporation that tries to see what life was like in the
Middle Ages by re-creating it.  The latest figures I have puts the
world-wide (paid) membership at over 5000; there are many more that
merely attend events.  Ah yes, events.  The main thing is the
Tournament.  Every so often a local chapter will sponsor a tournament,
to which all come in their Mediaeval finery for a day (or weekend) of
fun.  The main event (so to speak) is the Lists, or combat between
individuals to determine the winner of the tournament.  In the case of
a Crown Tourney, the winner will be crowned King at the next
Kingdom-sponsored Tournament.
     Combat is with swords, maces, lances and such made mainly out of
rattan.  This has proven to be the material that has the best balance
between realism and minimum injury.  Armor is real, and can be very
impressive.
     Other features of a tournament include arts contests, for music,
jewelry-smithing, illumination, calligraphy, or whatever other
mediaeval arts the contest sponsor may wish to sponsor.
     Great fun, generally.  More info can be had from me, or The SCA,
Inc. PO Box 1162, Berkeley, CA 94701 (415) 655-0529.  They can steer
you to a local chapter if you are interested.

---------

Another example of a rewritten story is Daniel Keyes' novellette
"Flowers for Algernon", which was made into a movie and novel (in
which order I am not sure) called "Charly".  If I do not misremember
Kier Dullea (of 2001 fame) was in it as Charly.  The tight, moving
novellette did not make the transition to novel lenght very well,
however.  In its original form, it was VERY well written.  The pace
and style were well controlled.  Fleshing it out to novel size caused
it to lose a lot of the impact, as well as necessitating a few
gratuitous sub-plots.  Ah, well, writers gotta eat, too.

----------

I believe that the writer who was so opposed to the use of their
universe in other stories was *NOT* Marion Zimmer Bradley.  She
recently published an anthology (whose name I have inconveniently
forgotten) consisting entirely of stories about Darkover written by
other people.  A few of the stories are "first publications" by the
authors.  All are quite good.  My favorite was the tale of Durramen's
Donkey, an explication of the idiom often used by Darkovens: "As
stupid as Durramens's Donkey". (Or some such).  MZB has added a
forward and comments to each story explaining that this was how SHE
got started in writing, and she isn't going to stifle new writers
(unless they're really AWFUL).
    Well worth the sum DAW wants for it. (Esp. for Darkover fen).

    --Berry Kercheval

------------------------------

Date: 19 October 1981 16:40 edt
From: York.Multics at MIT-Multics (William M. York)
Subject: memory implantation story

"wm leler" at Chapel Hill (there was no full name) mentioned his
daymares involving someone implanting new memories in his brain each
day.  This recalls a Phillip K. Dick story, "Time Out of Joint".  In
this story a group of people are being manipulated in such a fashon.
They are made to live the same day over and over again by the
implantation of the same set of memories at the start of each day.
They story is about one man who begins to suspect what is being done
to him, and his attempts to make changes to the world that he will
recognize and understand the next day.  I think that the people are
part of some advertising study or somesuch.

[ For more on "Time Out of Joint" see Volume 4, issue 87.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1981 1409-EDT
From: DYER-BENNET
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

( Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #89 )

(Ron Newman <Newman.ES at Parc-Maxc>) Zelazny wrote a piece which
existed as novella and novel.  One of the two was titled The Dream
Master.  One version of it won a Hugo or Nebula (or both?) and for a
while caused me to doubt the sanity of the awarding body.  Marion
Zimmer Bradley's "new" Darkover novel, Sharra's Exile, is very closely
related to the previous Sword of Aldones.  She talks about it as a
rewrite in the introduction, but as far as I can see it actually takes
place somewhat later, so perhaps this shouldn't count.

(General: Dreams and Illusions) It seems to me that the thing which
makes living a life of illusion socially unacceptable is that it does
not interface to the rest of the people in the world.  If one never
does anything of social importance, this doesn't matter, but if one
might, then spending your time living an illusion would deprive
society of your contribution.

This, at least, seems to be the basis for my objections to a society
of flexible realities implemented with a "dream machine."

This cannot easily be gotten around.  The dream machine could
presumably be programmed to watch all the realities it supervises for
things of value to the real world, but since the dream worlds would
presumably not contain the same pressures as the real world, there
would not be the same incentives to create useful things.

One can, of course, get around it by simply saying that one doesn't
care about contributions to society as a whole.

Another objection to living in a dream is the question of whether
simulated interactions with simulated people can be as interesting as
interactions with real people.  This can perhaps be answered with
reference to the Turing test:  If you can't tell the difference, it
doesn't matter (if you can tell the difference (and prefer the real
people), then you will presumably complain to the dream machine
corporation, and if they cannot fix the problem, spend more time with
real people).

Other than the social contribution argument above, I have so far been
unable to come up with a satisfying objection to simply installing an
electrode in my pleasure center and plugging it in (this is perhaps an
extreme extension, and perhaps a rudimentary form, of the dream
machine).

All of this discussion is predicated, of course, on the assumption
that there IS such a thing as the real world....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #94
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 OCT 1981 0747-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #94
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
      "Sanasardo Meets Attila" & Series (Narnia/Silent Planet),
        SF Movies - Looker & Charly & Charly II & Heavy Metal,
                       Humor - Broad Spectrums,
         SF Topics - Animation & Propaganda in SF & Dreaming
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1981 at 1550-PDT
From: Andrew Knutsen <knutsen@SRI-UNIX>
Subject: black hole title/author query

     The recent mention of a "tour of duty in a black hole" brought
to mind dim memories of a story (short I think) where something like
this does happen. The person involved goes thur an orbit around a
spinning singularity such that when he emerges, he has lost/gained
some time (this is predicted by GR). I think there might also have
been some sort of murder mystery involved, but...

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 1981 0254-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Black Hole Story query


Perhaps you are referring to a series of stories, later collected into
a "novel," by Larry Niven.  They are "Down and Out," which appeared in
the February 1976 issue of GALAXY magazine, and "The Children of the
State," serialized in the September, October, and November 1976 issues
of GALAXY magazine.  The "novel" they were later to appear as parts in
was A WORLD OUT OF TIME.

In these works a man from our time is frozen and revived by the State
in the future.  Since everyone must pay their own way in this future
State, our hero, Corbel, is enslaved.  Escaping in a Ramship to the
Galactic Core, he encounters a massive black hole that does funny
things with time.  The rest is a set of his adventures, largely set on
a future earth.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 16:51:45-PDT
From: ihnss!ihuxp!takao at Berkeley
Reply-to: "ihnss!ihuxp!takao c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: "Sanasardo Meets Attila"

This is not meant to be a spoiler, although I yearn to tell some of
the gory details.  Recently, in sf-lovers, there were lengthy accounts
of a certain author's body of work.  For those of you who enjoy a
laugh (or a mighty groan of pain), read the very short story
"Sanasardo Meets Attila" by Alan Ryan in the November 1981 issue of
The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction.  "Sanasardo Meets Attila"
provides a rather humorous comment to the above hinted at body of
work.

                           Enjoy
                           John Takao Collier

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 1310-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  from III via Rand  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: LOOKER

Last Thursday our crew of wacky computer animators saw an advance
screening of LOOKER - Michael Chrichton's newest technological
thriller staring Albert Finney, Susan Dey and James Coburn, and of
course, the computer animation of triple-I.

I had thought that a film which concerned primarily beautiful women
and computer graphics would grab me, but LOOKER has problems.
Basically there is bad acting and bad editing (especially at the
beginning) and holes in the plot you could drive a supertanker
through. (the climax happens during a demo of a system for making TV
commercials on videotape, the demo is done live and in front of an
audience - why not just tape the demo?).

On the other hand the story has interesting aspects to it, there is a
fantasy system for doing movie making "the easy way", high tech
galore, good guys, bad guys - the usual stuff. Its just not a classic.

LOOKER opens in Westwood (LA area) this Friday, Oct 23.

-------------

To reply to "upstill" at Berkeley: What is wrong with cocaine parties
for the animators? Sounds like a good idea to me.

 - Craig

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 09:40 PDT
From: Tou at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #93

I believe it was Cliff Robertson who played the title role in
"Charly".  In fact, I seem to remember his getting an Oscar for
"Charly".

[ Thanks also to Kolling at PARC-MAXC for providing the same
  information.  --  Jim ]

Another example of a rewritten story is Niven's "Rammer" which was
expanded into "World Out of Time" (or some similar title).

--Fred

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 81 11:33-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Charly

Good grief; I wish we could get this straight.  Charly, the movie
based on Keyes' Flowers for Algernon, did NOT star Keir Dullea as
stated by decvax!cuke!unc!bch@Berkeley, but rather Cliff Robertson.
Apparently, Robertson saw much in the story and went after it. He was
rewarded with an Oscar for Best Actor for his portrayal. His co-star
was Claire Bloom.

I thought the movie was a bit simplistic (as were the story/novel).
The Nicholl's encyclopedia has an interesting comment:
   "Nelson's direction is efficient except for a tendency
    to portray happiness in the sort of glamour shots that
    have been devalued in filmed commercials."
Exactly.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 11:56:09-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: CHARLY

  The star was Cliff Robertson, not Keir Dullea.
  Robertson was in Boston last year to film CHARLY II (working
title?). I don't see how this can be anything but a disaster.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1981 15:10:38-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!woods in care of" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: animation and old cartoons

     Speaking of old faked animation cartoons, does anyone out there
remember the old "Clutch Cargo" cartoons?  These were similar to the
description given of the Steve Canyon series, but even worse.  (Don't
take that too literally-- I used to love Clutch Cargo when I was a
kid). The only motion in these old cartoons was the characters
"floating" by the background (which was still).  No arm or leg
movements and only there mouths moved at all, and this was not very
realistic.  It just goes to show that technology (and age?) increase
one's standards greatly, for I thought Clutch Cargo was the greatest,
and now "Heavy Metal" animation, which is lightyears ahead, is being
called bad.

                      GREG (Greg Woods, menlo70!hao!woods@Berkeley)
------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1981 1822-EDT
From: HARDY
Reply-to: "HARDY in care of" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL:HEAVY METAL QUIZ

I am rather surprised at the level of discussion I have seen regarding
the movie HEAVY METAL here in SFL.  You would think from the comments
that there was nothing but sex, drugs and violence in the movie; there
is a lot of each, and very little plot, but nobody appears to have
bothered to dissect the strongest aspect of the movie: the visual
jokes and fictional references scattered throughout.  Accordingly, I
have prepared a brief quiz for the entertainment of SF-Lovers.  ( I
have NOT read the magazine. )

1.  What science-fiction movie was visually referenced in the segment
SO BEAUTIFUL AND SO DANGEROUS?

2.  What famous robot appears in the HARRY CANYON segment?

3.  Name one of the sources of the imagery of the B17 segment.

4.  What fast-food chain's sign is seen on the side of the space-
station in SO BEAUTIFUL AND SO DANGEROUS?

5.  What fictional trio were the personnel of the space-ship in SO
BEAUTIFUL AND SO DANGEROUS modeled upon?  ( Hint:  Not the Three
Stooges.  Remember the origin of the movie itself. )

6.  In the DEN segment, why is a small creature to the right of the
Queen clutching its head while the Queen rescinds her order to kill
Den?  ( Pay attention!  If you don't pay attention you miss half the
jokes! )

7.  What fictional Nasty Being was used as the model for the deity to
which the maiden was being sacrificed in the DEN segment?  ( Hint:
spell out the name in which the deity is invoked, if you can.  There
are many, many traces of the influence of this Nasty Being's author in
the movie. )

8.  Name some mythological role-models for the character Taarna,
including one visually referenced in the movie.  ( I expect the people
raving over excess nudity will have trouble with this one.  Whoever
wrote the clumsy philosophical narration for this segment could have
benefited from following the example of the main character...)

9.  What famous piece of space debris is seen in an asteroid shower in
SO BEAUTIFUL AND SO DANGEROUS?


There are probably some bits I failed to spot, but this is all I could
think of.  Surely all you people who squinted at flies in RAIDERS OF
THE LOST ARK can come up with some others.

------------------------------
Date: 12 September 1981 04:22-EDT
From: Eric P. Scott <EPS at MIT-AI>
Subject: You know you read too many broad spectrums when...

...a friend mentions the escalators (moving sidewalks) in SFO and you
try to figure out which movie he's talking about.

                                        --Eric

------------------------------

Date: 20 October 1981 1253-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Offensively religious

Actually, the simplest way to detect this is to look at the author.
If it is C.S. Lewis, it is probably more blatant than most people can
bear.  It is not a function of what you believe; most intelligent
Christians find Lewis' way of conveying a message to be grossly
overdone, and to non-Christians (especially former ones) his writing
is utterly unbearable propaganda.  The closest I've seen to it is
early Russian SF from the Stalin/Kruschev era, which has a somewhat
different message conveyed with about the same style, and subtlety.

And if you want a real treat, plow your way thur some of the mid-50's
magazine SF, the stuff that DIDN'T make it into anthologies.  Here the
message is overdone US/Human chauvinism, military imperialism is
clearly a mode to be encouraged (makes Viet Nam look like an
isolationist policy by comparison), sex doesn't exist (shades of the
cowboy kissing his horse), and women's roles are clear and
well-defined (quote: "Why a woman would want to give up a home and
family life to be a scientist always puzzled him" in the context that
led to the conclusion "clearly this is abnormal").  I'd almost rather
read Narnia.
                                        joe

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 (Tuesday) 1721-EDT
From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (William Sharer)
Subject: CS Lewis versus the technocrats


        If you thought that the Chronicles series was strongly
Christian try the Silent Planet trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet,
Perelandra, & That Hideous Strength).  CS was strongly against
technology and wrote this trilogy as a counter to all of the SF that
was coming out at the time.  He was against space travel as he didn't
think it our right to intrude on other civilizations.  Needless to say
he died a very unhappy man!

mr bill

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 17:21:27-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!cires!harkins at Berkeley
Reply-to: "menlo70!hao!cires!harkins c/o" <CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley>
Subject: re: lauren's musings on a dream machine

a guy named John D. McDonald, who is famous for Travis McGee, etc.
books, wrote a couple of s-f books early in his career; one has
basically the plot lauren suggests, called (i think) "Wine of the
Dreamers"

          ernie

re: Flowers for Algernon; someone thought it was Keir Dullea who
played Charly; i think it was Cliff Robertson, who got an Oscar for it

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 -- 2214 EDT
From: Adam Buchsbaum <research!sjb at Berkeley>
Subject: fantasy worlds

In the book Logan's Run (not at all like the movie), our hero on
Lastday stumbles into a place in which a robot looks at his blinking
flower and then hooks him up in a drawer.  He then begins to
experience living flashbacks of his life, from his childhood to his
career as a Sandman.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 1105-PDT
From: BILLW at SRI-KL
Subject: Lauren's dream machines

The concept of living in a dream world was brought up in Brunner's
"The Whole Man", though in that case the "dreams" are created not by
machines, but by groups of mutually supportive telepaths.  This
created the problem that people tended to die after they had been
dreaming for a while (no food, water, etc).  A good book.

From a moral standpoint, I am not sure how a dream machine differs
from drugs, insanity or any of the other ways people have been
escaping reality over the ages.  Of course, a dreamer presumably
physically hurt anyone (mentally is another question "I've had life
rough. My Only son became a dreamer, and my daughter became a
hacker.  Nothing went right...").  I was never really sure of
the moral standpoint of those other options to reality either.

Presumably, If you aren't happy with your dream, it will be detected,
and you can recurse - Dream you are being connected to a dream
machine, and so on, until you finally find one you like.  This type of
thing might replace having to customize each dream.

Bill W

------------------------------

Date: 20 October 1981 1404-PDT (Tuesday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Social Interactions and the Dream Machine

The objection that the Dream Machine does not provide for interaction
with "real" people is easily "dealt" with:  Simply allow for multiple
personalities to be integrated into the same illusion as desired.

For example, a male and female couple (or even a whole group of
friends) could go down to the dream factory at once, plug in
simultaneously, and then let the dream machine integrate their
experiences.  Each person's thoughts, reactions, and the like would
impact the dream universe just as it would in "real" interaction --
except that EVERYONE is in a more "interesting" universe.  Given the
complexity of even a single-user dream machine, I don't see why
multiple-user systems could not be developed.

Given time, you could have masses of the population plugged into the
same "fashionable" universes (this would probably be much less
expensive to use than a "custom" universe).  You could, if you wished,
interact with the same people you normally do, in the same way, but,
perhaps, a thousand years in the past, or in a D&D universe, or...

--Lauren--

------------------------------


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #95
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 OCT 1981 0827-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #95
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:
      SF Lovers - Anyone for Portland? & Party at DENVENTION II,
    SF Books - Black Hole Query Answered & Author Query Answered &
          Retief and the Rebels Query & The Great Divorce &
           Rewritten (Sharra's Exile/Flowers for Algernon),
          SF Movies - Charly & Meteor Query & Star Trek II,
    SF Topics - Physics Today (Sun) & Dreaming & Propaganda in SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 October 1981 03:31 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: I am looking for someone who will be going to Orycon
         in Portland, OR.

Also, for someone who is willing to donate some sketch-type artwork
for a good cause.

Please contact me directly, and I will explain what this is all about.

                        Thanks,
                        Paul

------------------------------

Date: 17-Oct-1981
From: BILL PERKINS@KIRK
Reply-to: "BILL PERKINS@KIRK c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL Party at Denvention

Would who ever has the cable and connectors that I lent to the effort
to get us on-line at the SFL party at D-II please contact me so that
we can make arrangements for their return.  Thanks.
                                                Bill

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 1981 1015-PDT
From: Paul Dietz <DIETZ at USC-ECL>
Subject: Larry Niven Black Hole Story

  The story you are thinking of is "Singularities Make Me Nervous" by
Larry Niven.  I think it appeared in one of the Stellar anthologies.

------------------------------

Date: 21-Oct-1981
From: AL LEHOTSKY at METOO
Reply-to: "AL LEHOTSKY at METOO c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: Coleman.ES @PARC-MAXC's query on "The Forever House"

This sounds an awful lot like a couple of Clifford (?) Simak stories.

Only in one of them it was an old man and a dog.  I'm not sure about
the others.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 1981 04:50:41-PDT
From: decvax!pur-ee!pur-phy!retief at Berkeley
Subject: Retief and the Rebels


     In the forthcoming books catalogues at book stores
 I've noticed a listing of 'Retief and the Rebels' by
 Keith Laumer (in paperback) scheduled for publication
 back in (I think) Oct. '81, but a small footnote says
 to write the publisher for information (Pocket Books
 I believe.)  I've writen them with no reply.  Does
 anyone know anything about this phantom book?

                          Sincerely, Dwight Bartholomew

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 1981 21:35:49-PDT
From: ihnss!mhtsa!allegra!psuvax!red at Berkeley
Subject: Flowers for Algernon, Charly

I think I remember the lead was Cliff Robertson...

I agree with your initial analysis of Flowers for Algernon and the
transition to novel/movie - but taken by themselves I thought they
were both well done.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 1981 12:38:32-PDT
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: Charly

Thanks to all for setting me/us straight on the star of "Charly".  I
guess memory failed me after all (I warned you!).  I just moved and my
library (88 boxes of books on the floor, 88 boxes of books, you take
one down...)  Is still in boxes. Oh my aching back!

-berry kercheval

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 0811-PDT
From: Paul Dietz <DIETZ at USC-ECL>
Subject: Meteor

Does anyone know what happened to the movie METEOR?
------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 81 14:59:51-EDT (Wed)
From: Gregory Hogg <greg.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Spock Will Live !!!


        On 10/20/81 the TV show 'Entertainment Tonight' stated that
they had talked to Nimoy about the death of Spock.  He said that there
was no intention on his or anyone elses part to kill Spock.  They even
said that he called them up again later and repeated his statement
again.

                What Do You Think?


                        Power To The Turbos

                                        Greg Hogg

------------------------------

Date: 20-OCT-1981 23:26
From: MARIAH::GARDNER
Reply-to: "MARIAH::GARDNER c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re-written Stories


        Date:  3-Oct-81  2:43:27 PDT (Saturday)
        Subject: Query--Rewritten SF Stories
        From: Ron Newman <Newman.ES at Parc-Maxc>

        While we're talking about series, I'd like to know what
        SF stories have been rewritten and re-issued by the
        original author.

On the subject of re-written stories (and Darkover), one that was
just released is "Sharra's Exile" by Ms. Bradley.  According to
her introduction, this is a rewrite of "Heritage of Hastur".
Apparently "Heritage of Hastur" was one of the first (if not the
first) Darkover books she wrote, and thus reflected her
inexperience as a writer.  As it is, in many ways, a culmination
of the series (later stories work backwards from that point in
time), she felt the urge to rewrite it to bring it up to par with
her later work, and has done so.  Based on reading "Sharra's
Exile" a week ago and my memories of "Heritage of Hastur", the
overall plots are the same although different in details, ditto
with characters.  The later book is longer, more detailed, has
better continuity and characters, and is generally superior
(although not the best work she has done).

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 21 October 1981  18:00-PDT
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Sunspots
As I recall sunspot correlations are given as the standard example of
how you can pull fascinating things out of thin air providing you look
long enough.  (I.e. if we try to correlate 100 random things with
sunspot cycles, it is a good chance there will be one with a
correlation significant with 1%)

                                    Ken

------------------------------

Date: 21 October 1981 09:38-EDT
From: Christopher C. Stacy <CStacy at MIT-AI>
Subject: Dreamworlds

   -Listen, Tyrone, you don't know how dangerous that stuff is.
  Suppose someday you just plug in and go away and never come back?
  Eh?
   -Ho, ho! Don't I wish! What do you think every electrofreak dreams
  about? You're such an old fuddyduddy! A-and who sez it's a dream,
  huh?  M-maybe it exists. Maybe there is a Machine to take us away,
  take us completely, suck us out through the electrodes out of the
  skull 'n' into the Machine and live there forever with all the other
  souls it's got stored there. It could decide who it would suck out,
  a-and when.  Dope never gave you immortality. You hadda come back,
  every time, into a dying hunk of smelly meat! But We can live
  forever, in a clean, honest, purified, Electroworld-

                                       -Thomas Pynchon
                                        "Gravity's Rainbow"

------------------------------

Date: 22 October 1981 0016-EDT (Thursday)
From: David.Cunnius at CMU-10A
Subject:  The Dream Machine, C.S. Lewis, and Precognition

        If the Dream Machine is NOT better than "reality", it will
probably not be able to succeed financially, i.e. not enough people
will "waste" their money on it for the purveyors to make a profit. On
the other hand, if the Dream Machine IS better than "reality", there
is the problem that people will neglect reality in preference to
dreams. A very good treatment of this idea is Joseph Greer's "Gentle
Into That Good Night" in ANALOG (July 20, 1981).  (In this particular
story, the treatment which makes "the Cap" [i.e. the Dream machine]
feasible is available to anyone who wants it, but is terminally
addictive; the inventor intended it as a relief to the terminally ill,
but it has become an increasingly popular legal suicide.). Adding a
barrier to keep too many people from using the Dream Machine, such as
a high price, could lead to social unrest ("Why should a dream life be
a privilege of the rich, leaving the poor to continue suffering?",
etc.).

        As a fellow Christian, I would like to defend C.S. Lewis from
the charges against his writing style; unfortunately, I can't. From
what I've seen of his work, it appears Lewis never let storytelling
interfere with his preaching. I enjoyed "The Screwtape Letters", which
is a collection of correspondence from a devil to his nephew, offering
a great deal of infernal advice on how to draw people away from God,
but I don't know whether this book should even be classed among Lewis'
fiction; there are too many Truths in it.

        I would suggest that SF Lovers' Digest itself offers evidence
of precognition. How often have several people brought up the same new
topic in the same issue of SFLD? How often is a question posed by one
person and answered by other people in the same issue? This seems to
have been occurring rather frequently lately.                     /DAC


[ Scheduling delays in sending out messages (normally due to a high
  volume of submissions to the digest), and the policy of encouraging
  the discussion of only a few topics at a given time (which makes it
  easier to contribute to, follow, and create the digests both
  directly and indirectly (by reducing the already high volume of
  submissions to those dealing only with the current topics)), do tend
  to "bunch" up messages on a single topic (which is the policy's
  intention).

  Also, many submissions are CCed to other people when being sent to
  the digest.  Thus when the originals appear they sometimes have
  replies to the questions posed already queued up.  Following the
  above policy, it only natural to send out these replies at that
  time.

  If anyone has questions on administrative policy they are welcome to
  discuss the matter further by mailing to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI.
  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 81 14:19-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: C.S. Lewis

I've read only one of his books, but enjoyed it immensely.  It's
called THE GREAT DIVORCE and is a very good fantasy. It has many of
the qualities of a Roger Zelazny novel. The story begins with the
character not knowing who or where he is and describes his gradual
enlightenment. Interestingly enough, it was assigned reading in a
theology course I took in high school.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 0417-EDT
From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS (Mngr DEC-20's/Dir LCSR Comp Facility)
Subject: C.S. Lewis

There has been enough negative comment about C.S. Lewis that it seems
worth while presenting the other side.  First, on the comment that he
is against technology:  fortunately we do not have to guess on the
views underlying the space trilogy.  He wrote a book, @i[The Abolition
of Man] whose purpose was to say the same thing in non-fiction form.
(Interestingly, this book is not specifically Christian.) His
objection is not to science, but to the use of technology without
concern for what is being done, and in particular to its use to
control the destinies of people without their participation or
consent. Certainly it is widely recognized that there are dangers to
letting technology get out of control.  I believe one of the virtues
of @i[The Abolition of Man] (and the space trilogy) is that it
succeeds in giving a reasonably precise characterization of some of
these dangers.  This is surely a more positive approach than the more
common vague "back to nature" approach.  Lewis' real enemy is neither
basic scientific research nor NASA, but rather the sort of thing
represented by B.F. Skinner's book, @i[Beyond Freedom and Dignity].  I
also believe that the last volume of the space trilogy does one of the
best jobs I have ever seen of portraying the real horrors of
bureaucracy and organizational politics. I am afraid that I have seen
more than one example of everything that went on in his fictional
University and research lab. Of course he has exaggerated them, but
that is a well-known technique for clarifying things.

As to the allegedly overbearing nature of his fictional works, I have
little sympathy with the complaints. I think the business of
speculative fiction is to try building worlds on various assumptions,
to see what will come out of them.  C.S. Lewis' Christianity is
certainly no more blatant than the humanism underlying Marion Zimmer
Bradley's works or the libertarianism of @i[The Probability Broach]. I
do not happen to be libertarian, but I certainly enjoy seeing a work
based on an alternate universe in which this philosophy is workable.
I am not bothered by the fact that the author believes it is workable
in the present universe.  What may possibly not be obvious to some
readers of this list is that the bulk of science fiction seems as
blatantly non-Christian to me as C.S. Lewis' work seems blatantly
Christian to you.  However I do not see this as a problem, since
speculative fiction does not seem to be an in which neutrality is any
particular virtue.  By the way, if you want to see a more subtle
example of Lewis' work, you should read "Til We Have Faces".  This is
generally considered to be his best work.  It is a retelling of the
Cupid and Psyche myth. It is set in a barbarian area contemporary with
ancient Greece.  You will be happy to know that there are no
Christians anywhere in sight, and that the protagonist is a woman, who
is for once portrayed in a manner that I think will satisfy just about
anyone.

By the way, Aslan is not simply an allegorical representation of
Christ.  He is an analog of Christ in a different and fictional
universe.  There are serious differences between Narnia and this
universe, such as the existence of intelligent animals, and the fact
that magic works.  The fact that Aslan is a lion, and the details of
the episode in which he is sacrificed, depend upon these facts.  If
you attempted to take Aslan's sacrifice as an allegorical
representation of Christ's death, you would end up with a theory of
the Atonement that combined one of the least satisfactory ancient
theories with some ideas that are simply absurd.  From reading Lewis'
theological works, I do not believe that he actually holds any such
theory.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #96
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 OCT 1981 2253-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #96
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:
          SF Books - Title and Author Query & Series Query &
              Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night &
    Series (GOR/Retief/Stainless Steel Rat/Deathworld/Well World),
              SF Music - Raiders of the Lost Ark Theme,
              SF Movies - Daleks Invade Earth 2150 A.D,
             SF Topics - Dreaming,  Spoiler - Well World
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  9 Oct 1981 0223-PDT
From: Barry Megdal <BARRY at CIT-20>
Subject: Jewish Science Fiction

I recall a reference on this list to a book of Jewish Science Fiction.
Anyone have the title and author?

Also, I just heard a reading of a Harlan Ellison story on the radio
called "I'm Looking for Kadak(sp?)". Where has it been published?

Thanks.

Barry Megdal

------------------------------

Date: 20-OCT-1981 23:29
From: MARIAH::GARDNER
Reply-to: "MARIAH::GARDNER c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Gor & other trashy SF

About a year after I first knew of the GOR series (i.e., about a year
after the first book appeared in the MIT Coop -- I assume a year after
the first book was published.  In any case, I think it was around
1971) I read the following anecdote (I think in an SF magazine's book
review column).  Some name SF author (never identified) had been
talking to the reviewer and, after sufficient alcohol had been
imbibed, made a wager that he (the name author) could write an
absolutely despicable SF story and get it published under a pseudonym.
By "despicable" was implied pure formula, stereotyped characters,
hackneyed plot, no redeeming features, etc (anyone reading it would
clearly label it trash).  Anyway, the reviewer was reporting that the
author had written said story, it had been published, and there had
been such demands from readers that the author had been forced to
write a sequel (apparently the author was concerned that if he didn't
write a sequel his true identify would be revealed -- blackmail by the
publisher?).  The reviewer didn't identify either the author or the
story/series, instead merely using this to lament the quality of SF
publishing and readership.

Anyway, at the time I read this I said to myself that they had to be
talking about to GOR series -- it met all the requirements as a
suitably despicable & hackneyed series, the timing was about right,
and "John Norman" sure sounded like a pseudonym.  (The timing that I
distinctly remember as being about right was between appearance of
first volume of GOR series in MIT Coop and receipt of magazine
containing this review).  However, from all that has appeared in SFL,
it seems that John Norman is a real person, and not a pseudonym for
some name writer.  Therefore, does anyone have any idea as to what
series and/or author was being referred to?  Does anyone else remember
the review I'm talking about?  (I could presumably locate it, but I'd
first have to unpack my old magazines).

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1981 13:55:30-PDT
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Subject: RotLA music

Anyone remember the title music from one of the best SF TV series
ever, "The Wild Wild West"?  It sounded awfully similar to the main
RotLA theme.
                                        paul

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  6 Oct 1981 14:33-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night
         (Alf Laylah wa Laylah)


        Some months ago I decided that if I were to really be serious
about an interest in SF and fantasy, I should read some, at least, of
the classics in the field.  Since the Santa Monica Library boasted a
circulating copy of Sir Richard Francis Burton's translation of the
complete Arabian Nights, I decided to start there.  Last night I
finished the Nights, and I thought I'd share some reactions with the
community, since it is highly unlikely that many out there have
actually read all of the Nights.

        I feel confident in this conclusion because, in fact, the
Nights are ten volumes long.  Ten BIG volumes.  Hence the length of
this message.

        First, the translation.  Most folks who have read Farmer's
Riverworld series are familiar with Burton.  I really don't remember
too much about Farmer's characterization because the real thing is
still too fresh in my mind.  Burton obviously had a rather
iconoclastic view of society, and his copious footnotes are a joy to
read in these times.  He really had a somewhat modern viewpoint,
though it is almost certain that he'd find today's mores a shocker.
In any event, he was certainly much more knowledgeable of "Eastern"
culture and mores than most of his contemporaries in the Foreign
Service, of whom he says, "Few phenomena are more startling than the
vision of a venerable infant, who has lived half his long life in the
midst of the wildest anthropological vagaries and monstrosities, and
yet who absolutely ignores all that India or Burmah enacts under his
very eyes.  This is crass ignorance, not the naive innocence of Saint
Francis who, seeing a man and a maid in a dark corner, raised his
hands to Heaven and thanked the Lord that there was still in the world
so much of Christian Charity." [From the Terminal Essay.]

        Second, the stories.  It startles most people to discover that
this, the most famous translation, lacks two of the three most
widely-known stories in the "Arabian Nights", that of "Allaedin and
the Wonderful Lamp", and "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves".  Only
"Sindbad the Landsman and Sindbad the Seaman" [Sinbad the Sailor] is
in Burton's translation.  The reason is that the two manuscripts from
which Burton worked, which were the two most complete Arabic texts
extant at the time (1880-89), did not include these stories.  These
stories are famous not because of Burton, but because of a Frenchman
named Galland, who first translated some stories from Arabic to
French.  His manuscript did contain these stories, but they are of
uncertain origin, and his manuscript is lost.  This was back around
1650 or so, and marked the start of Western fascination with the
Nights.

        Hence, for these stories, one has to go to Burton's
"Supplemental Nights", SIX MORE VOLUMES, which I have now started.

        Third, the fantasy element.  There is not a lot of magic in
the Nights.  Burton identifies three main types of story: fables,
fairy tales, and romantic adventures.  I would say that these are
present in the rough ratio 25% : 25% : 50%, by number.  However, the
fables, while longer than the Aesop variety, are still rather short,
so that in total verbiage the romantic adventure tales take up roughly
2/3 of the text.  One tale, in fact, is as long as a regular novel,
taking up 1/7 of the Nights by number.  It sort of gets lost in the
altogether HUGE body that is the Nights.  So large is the whole text
of the Nights, in fact, that some stories occur twice: same plot
device, just different characters.

        What fantasy exists is not like modern fantasy.  There are no
real laws of magic, merely "magians" who study it, sometimes as a
religion counter to al-Islam, and, more rarely, by good magicians who
are invariably Moslem.  The Jann (plural of Jinni, our Genie) have a
much more clear-cut existence.  These are actually the Moslem
equivalent of angels, except that they are mortal in the sense that
they can be killed.  They, like men, are divided into good Jann and
evil Jann, or Marids.  The latter seem much more common, probably
because of the fact that they make for better plots and more action.

        The Jann are regarded by Islam as inferior to Man by Allah's
decree, despite their greater powers.  This is actually demonstrated
in one of the nights, where Haroun al-Rashid, the Caliph (hence also
Commander of the Faithful), calls up ALL the Jann to question them
about something.  Presumably those still stuck in bottles from the
time of Solomon were exempt from the summons.

        All in all, the magic in the Nights seems much closer to the
Qabalah than to Western magic, though of course there is close
correspondence when Alchemy appears, since that is in fact an Arabic
word.  (Burton draws a number of teasing etymological references which
appear quite plausibly to draw a large number of Latin roots from the
Arabic.  Notes like these are sprinkled throughout the Nights.)

        Fourth, pornography.  Sorry, gang, but while it is there, it
is tame stuff by today's standards.  None of it is salacious, and some
of it, which Burton found shocking enough to cause him to devote some
twenty pages of his Terminal Essay to the history of homosexuality
around the world, is actually much more reasonable by today's
standards than the prudery of Victorian times.

        The pornography of the Nights is divided into two types.  One
consists in pure shock value, where a high-toned love story will be
broken up by an EXTREMELY crude poem.  This obviously came from the
oral tradition of the Nights, where it was used to wake up the
audience.  The other is simple homosexuality, which in all is pretty
openly treated.  While condemned by al-Islam, it was not treated as a
shocking matter, and was much more common and open in that time than
in most areas today, at least by the standards of the Nights.

        In conclusion, let me say that one very interesting effect
this has had has been to bring the whole Middle Eastern situation much
closer to reality, for me.  News reports now take on a
three-dimensional aspect, particularly regarding what is happening in
Iran.  While the Nights are fanatic in regarding Christians as The
Enemy (guess who always loses), nothing in them approaches the
ravenous hatred now endemic to Iran.  In fact, historically Haroun
al-Rashid [Aaron the Orthodox] although a fanatic Moslem himself, did
not abstain from carrying on rational diplomatic exchanges with
Western nations.  Islam seems to have undergone some sort of change in
the last 100 years, and what used to be a fairly rational, if
excitable people have now lost all sanity.  Probably culture shock.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 06:46:39-PDT
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Subject: Dream Machines

I refer you to "True Names", by Vernor Vinge (in Binary Star #5), and
"Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" by John Varley (in The Persistence of
Vision).  They both examine very similar ideas.

------------------------------

Date:  3 October 1981 03:52 edt
From:  Templeton.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Various comments

Various SFL comments here:

The Dr. Who movie, Dalek's invasion of Earth, is 60s SF, with sfx
beyond normal Dr. Who, but it doesn't have Tom Baker, the actor I
enjoy the most in it, though.  Worth viewing if you're a fan of the
Doctor.  In addition, at the worldcon I picked up a magazine called
Fantasy Empire.  A fairly simple affair, but it had lots on Doctor
Who, and included a complete series guide.  (There's lots)

Re various series:  The quality of Retief stories comes and goes, I
think.  Retief's Ransom notably was hard to read at first.

I do think the Stainless Steel Rat series went downhill with the 4th
book, "The SSR wants you".  It was not at all the same quality stuff
as the first three.  Deathworld was pretty good as a series, though.

Jack Chalker's Well World series deserves special attention.  Midnight
at the Well of Souls was probably the best, but the others are still
fairly good.  In the last book, Twilight atWoS, Chalker gets away with
one of the most grandiose events in SF without you complaining that it
is too grandiose.  (He does this to a lesser extent in MatWoS.  )
Personally, I thought it was cheap when people like Arcott, Wade and
Morey in the JWC books escaped from a black hole by smashing a star
into it.  I was ready to accept however, what happens at the end of
the Well series.

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 10/23/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It reveals some
details concerning the character Nathan Brazil in the Wells of Souls
series, by Jack Chalker, that constitute a spoiler.  Readers who have
not read these works may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date:  3 October 1981 03:52 edt
From:  Templeton.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: Well of Souls

Considering MatWoS as a single work, (SPOILER WARNING) I find it
contains one of the most astounding characters (wrt what he is) in SF.
Rarely does one find something as unusual as the "God who forgot he
was god" of Nathan Brazil.  That idea interested me so much that I was
ready to buy "The Return of Nathan Brazil" on the title alone.  Mind
you, I didn't like finding out (SUPER SPOILER) in the end that he had
been telling lies about his godhood.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #97
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 OCT 1981 2253-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #97
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 24 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:
             SF Books - Title and Author Query Answered &
           Black Hole Query Answered & Series (Vampires) &
                     Rewritten (Sharra's Exile),
            SF Movies - Star Trek II & Charly & Charly II,
   SF Topics - Dreaming & Propaganda in SF & Animation & Sex in SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 October 1981 00:30-EDT
From: Daniel Breslau <BRESLA at MIT-AI>
Subject: Jewish SF Query

In response to Barry Megdal's query: I'm 96% sure that the name of the
anthology he's describing (i.e., Jewish SF) is 'Wanderings'. (as in
the old fables of the Wandering Jew.)  I don't remember who edited.
Also, Ellison's "I'm Looking for Kadak" was in this collection.

This book is very hard to find.  In fact, I can't find my own copy of
it.  But some used book dealers might be able to help.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 2142-MDT
From: Mike Lemon <Lemon at UTAH-20>
Subject: Ellison's "Kadak"

Re Barry Megdal's query (V4 #96) about Harlan Ellison's "I'm looking
for Kadak": It appears in the Ellison collection "Approaching
Oblivion".

-Mike

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 16:39 EDT
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #96

In response to Barry Megdal's request in v4 #96 re Jewish Science
Fiction:

  There was an anthology edited by Terry Carr called "Wandering Star";
I have a copy but not with me.  Message me directly if you want more
details.  As I recall it was not an outstanding collection.

Dave Birnbaum

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 15:20:17-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: Jewish SF, and writing a story SO bad...

The name of the anthology of Jewish SF is "Wandering Stars," but I
don't recall the editor[s] name[s]. It also contained William Tenn's
"On Venus Have We Got A Rabbi," Avram Davidson's "Goslin Day," and
Asimov's "Unto the Fourth Generation."

As for the anecdote on writing intentionally horrid SF, the anecdote
is mentioned in the intro to "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon," so I'd
guess that the SF review column was Spider Robinson's. The publication
date of Callahan's should set a (non-least) upper bound, if none
other exists. Hope this helps....

                                        James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 13:48:29-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Jewish SF

    See WANDERING STARS, anthology edited by Jack Dann. Contains a
number of classics ("Look, You Think You've Got Troubles" by Carol
Carr, "Trouble With Water" by H. L. Gold, etc.) and 4 stories written
specifically for this book, including Ellison's "I'm Looking for
Kadak". I think I've also seen MORE WANDERING STARS somewhere.

------------------------------

Date: 22 October 1981 -- 2132 EDT
From: Adam Buchsbaum <research!sjb at Berkeley>
Subject: Spock

Personally, I think that if Nimoy wants to quit playing Spock, they
should have him retire as opposed to killing him.  In this way, if he
should ever want to return to future movies/shows, he can always
re-enlist.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 12:09:25-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Re: Black hole title query

     There is also a possibility that the story being referred to here
is in fact Frederik Pohl's \\Gateway//. The black hole was entered by
an interstellar drive which terminated just inside the Schwartzschild
radius (distance at which orbital velocity = c). Escape was possible
because the explorers had two ships available, and they executed a
macroscopic version of the sequence of events by which a black hole
can emit matter--if you have an object near the Schwartzschild radius
which splits in two, one piece can escape the black hole while the
other piece remains behind. The center of mass stays inside the black
hole.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 18:17:43-PDT
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: black hole title/author query, Dream Machine as training simulator?

The recent mention of a "tour of duty in a black hole" brought to mind
memories of George R. R. Martin's short story (originally occurring in
Analog, with a VERY nice pre-Laser-Books (deo gracias) Kelly Freas
cover) "The Second Kind of Loneliness," a story near and dear to us
shy people.

It concerns a man spending a year or so at an outpost circling a black
hole ('lighthouse in space', and all that) opening an unspecified spot
near/in(?) the black hole for passing ships. He spends the story (as
we see by the diary entries composing it) reliving his pre-tour life
and telling himself it will all be different when he gets back. He
DOES lose some time, and there IS murder, but I skate close to
spoiler-hood...

Speaking of the Dream Machine question, I wonder about the possible
uses of such a device for instruction--living is rather messy, and you
can't reboot the universe or the people you have to deal with in 'real
life', so why not live a few hundred times (at an accelerated rate) to
find out how to do it RIGHT (whatever that means)? Also, I think that
it may very well be possible to contribute to society (real or
otherwise); people in the machine with inventive bent would KNOW if
they were, for example, bending the universe to make
life/discoveries/etc. too easy, and (one guesses from personal
experience) would not gain from it the satisfaction that they would
expect. ('But the Machine could do this without their knowledge,' you
say? Well, that depends on who controls the machine...)

                                James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 1981  0:40:35 EDT (Friday)
From: Dan Franklin <dan at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: dream machine

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned an obvious application of
Lauren's "dream machine": as a simulator. Any machine (or
machine+programmers) capable of creating believable characters from
fiction can obviously create them from real life as well. So... want
to know how to deal with people in different situations? Try out some
different strategies for advancing through your favorite organization,
starting your own company, becoming President, etc. Accurate
information might be difficult to come by, but if you really want to
be President, you could make the effort.

It would also be great for do-it-yourself utopia designing, or (to
make a topical reference) writing a good science fiction novel!

        Dan Franklin
------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 15:23:13-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: Flowers for Algernon

My friend Mark Leeper has something to contribute to this discussion;
please send replies to me, dmu at ucbvax, or Berkeley, or whatever
Ernie Kovax's net address is relative to your continuum.  BTW, I also
saw the musical (with Mark), and I didn't think it was THAT bad. . .

        David Ungar


SF-Lovers entry (if you can please send me responses):

    Some comments on FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON:  Robertson's wish to do a
file of FFA did not stem just from his seeing the story.  One of his
first big successes was when he was cast in the title role of the
television play "The World of Charlie Gordon" which was done on TV
sometime between the middle and late fifties.  I saw it at the time
and then totally forgot I ever saw it, rediscovering first the story
and then the novel years later.  When the film came out, I rushed to
see it (was bitterly disappointed at how far it fell short of the
book) and only then realized that some of the dialogue I had heard
years before.
    CHARLY II [CHARLY THINKS AGAIN (??)] sounds like a bad idea, but
the ultimate FFA disaster has already taken place.  It was CHARLIE AND
ALGERNON: A VERY SPECIAL MUSICAL, an odious Broadway musical that
might well have been written by a pre-operation Charlie.  The
production included -- get this -- a dancing Algernon.  From the back
of the theater it just looked like a little white dot moving around --
but definitely not on cue.  The best I can say about the staging is
that it was unusual.  It included a giant monkey-bar maze that dropped
from above every time Charlie was supposed to run a race with
Algernon.  The scientists lectured from rolling platform on the floor
and it was clear they were having problems keeping their balance.  As
for the playwright's values, the highpoint of Charlie's achievements
was his taking his former teacher to bed. The capper was when Algernon
could be seen dropping his own theater review onto Charlie's shoulder.
The play closed mercifully quickly.

[ CHARLIE AND ALGERNON: A VERY SPECIAL MUSICAL and CHARLY II have
  been discussed before in the digest.  A transcript of some of
  those early discussions is available at MIT-AI in the file
  AI:DUFFEY SFLVRS CHARLY (about 12K characters).  Anyone desiring
  a copy should FTP it from MIT-AI or, if that is impossible, send
  a request for the transcript to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI.  -- Jim ]

    To Greg Woods: Yes, I remember Clutch Cargo "cartoons".  I think
"Space Angel" was done using the same techniques.  This animation was
very little more than a slide show and was incredibly unimaginative.
In animation we are dealing with a medium where just about anything
that the artist can see in his mind's eye can be put on the screen.
It is the ideal medium for doing science fiction and fantasy.  So why
have we been saddled with such lousy and unimaginative animation?
FANTASTIC PLANET and HEAVY METAL were steps in the right direction.
So were a few isolated scenes of LORD OF THE RINGS and WIZARDS, but it
all amounts to just a few feet up Everest.
                    Mark Leeper (c/o ucbvax!dmu)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 22:21:40-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: C.S. Lewis and Preaching

The issue isn't (or shouldn't be) whether or not C.S. Lewis and his
works are Christian "propaganda".  Rather, the question is whether or
not his novels succeed as novels.  If we assume that he's trying to
convey a message by this mechanism, it's fair to ask that the
mechanism itself work -- otherwise, no one will read it, and the
message will be lost.  My own personal preference is for the scalpel
rather than the sledgehammer, regardless of the point to be made.
Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" is a good example of a work I enjoy
immensely, but disagree with almost completely.  He told a good story,
with self-consistent assumptions about some Universe.  On the other
hand, there's someone like John Norman...  no, enough's already been
said about *him*.  Let me pick an example from (shudder) mainstream --
Phillip Roth's "Tricky and his Gang" is an anti-Nixon satire so
virulent it turned off die-hard liberals.

                --Steve

P.S.  I leave my religious and political beliefs unstated here, as an
exercise for the reader.  The latter at least shouldn't be too
hard....

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 1318-PDT
From: Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: Chelsea Quinn Yarbro and Elizabeth Lynn

This is a re-write of an earlier message which was delayed through
inability to find a time when both Will and I had time to get to it.
(My access is through him.)  Have finished the first 3 books dealing
with St.Germain, and still like them very much.  but find myself
wondering about her personality.  It bothers me to see her concentrate
so heavily on the male figure achieving true sexual fulfillment only
through the pleasure of his female partner, without being able to
enjoy all aspects of sexuality.  This became especially troublesome to
me personally when I found her stressing that her female vampires were
able to enjoy all aspects of the sex act.  Am more in agreement with
Elizabeth Lynn's way of treating the whole question of sex and
satisfaction.  Even though she tends to concentrate on the homosexual
aspects, most of her characters are, to some extent, bi-sexual, and
there is a strong emphasis on mutual satisfaction, regardless of who
is involved.  She also seems to deal more truly with non-sexual
relationships and the natural spill over from one type to the other.

  One more comment on Yarbro.  I got the impression that Savanarola's
religious fervor was derived from the social and sexual urges he had
been rebuffed in trying to express - a detour to satisfaction, with
revenge playing a large part in his motivations.

                                                    amyjo

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 1120-PDT
From: Joe Kelsey <JOE at WASHINGTON>
Subject: Rewritten stories (Sharra's Exile)

Having just finished several months of reading all of the Darkover
books I could beg, borrow or steal, I can heartily recommend them.  I
would like to clear up the report by MARIAH::GARDNER that "Sharra's
Exile" is a rewrite of "Heritage of the Hastur".  "Sharra" is a sequel
to "Heritage", and is a rewrite of "Sword of Aldones".  As in any long
series, it is often difficult to keep track of chronology, especially
since MZB claims that each book should stand on its own merits and not
necessarily be viewed as Book Number x of y.  As far as I can tell,
there is one book which covers a time after "Sharra's Exile" which is
"The World Wreckers", and is really the culmination of the Darkover
series.  Has anyone ever compiled a chronological ordering of the
Darkover books?  I would be interested to compare notes sometime.

/Joe Kelsey

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #98
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 OCT 1981 0940-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #98
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 30 Oct 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:
              Administrivia - Transmission Difficulties,
                      SF Fandom - LOSCON Party,
      SF Books - Contact & Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
         Series Query Answered & EFT Title Query and Answer &
                     Rewritten (Sharra's Exile),
   SF Movies - Beauty and the Robot,  SF TV - The Tomorrow People,
             SF Topics - Physics Today (Sun) & Dreaming,
                           Spoiler - Wizard
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6:40am  Friday, 30 October 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: Transmission Difficulties

Since the end of last week we have been experiencing hardware
difficulties both at MIT-AI and at SU-SCORE which have substantially
delayed the transmission of digests.  Some of the problems still
exist, but we are trying to work around them.  Please bear with us.

Jim

------------------------------

Date:  23 October 1981 21:00 edt
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  SF-L party at Loscon

If there is any interest, I will offer to donate a room for a Friday
night party on the same terms as I have previously: other people to
provide refreshments and setup.

This time, I expect to be traveling for most of the week before
Loscon, and will be out of touch. So, if we are going to do this,
let's get the arrangements made early.

Interest? Any volunteers for an organizer?

                        Paul

------------------------------

Date: 22-Oct-81 15:24:44 PDT (Thursday)
From: Newman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Carl Sagan to publish SF novel

The Los Angeles Herald Examiner reported Saturday that Carl Sagan will
publish his first novel next year, to be called "Contact".

The novel, to be published by Simon and Schuster, "relates how aliens
beep to earth blueprints for a space capsule, and how mankind is faced
with the decision whether to build it, knowing it could be a Doomsday
machine".

I wonder if Sagan has read John Varley's "The Ophiuchi Hotline"?

/Ron

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 15:17:30-PDT
From: alice!ark at Berkeley
Subject: Here's the plot, what's the title?

I caught only the beginning of this short story?  novella?  Fairly
recent (I think within the last 5 years?).  A space traveler spends
several years in suspended animation, wakes up for a while to eat and
such, then back into the freeze tank.  The part of the story that I
read (it was serialized somewhere) described two of his dreams in
vivid detail (he was a dinosaur in one of them; I forget the other),
and the waking activity between.  Concern was building that his dreams
were becoming too real.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 13:50:10-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: fake trashy SF

   This sounds like a rerun of NAKED CAME THE STRANGER, which was
discussed in this digest some months back.
   I think the timing is off for Gor, which I would guess goes back
before 1971 (but not much, as #6 (?) was published by DAW, a very new
publishing house, and they're now up to #18).

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 11:58:40-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: story query

   Now I'm doing it!
   I'm looking for a story, probably from 15-30 years back, in which a
young man starts the day with something like 1.5 credits in his
electronic funds account and, through assorted chicanery and violence,
winds up in clover less than 24 hours later---at which time we find
that he was hired specifically to do this to find the holes in
procedures designed to prevent improper transfer of funds.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 13:51:30-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: my query
   In response to my story query of a few days ago, I found the
answer:  "Criminal in Utopia" by Mack Reynolds. Appeared in a '68
GALAXY and in TOMORROW INC.

------------------------------

Date: 24 October 1981 1637-PDT (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: another entry for the BAD film Hall of Fame

It never fails.  Just when you think you've seen EVERY BAD movie ever
made, another one pops up just to prove you're wrong!  Such was the
case for me last night, when good old reliable KTLA aired a film
that clearly qualifies for my BAD, AWFUL, DISGUSTING "SF" Hall of Fame.

How I missed seeing "Beauty and the Robot" (1960) for so long is
quite a mystery.  Starring Mamie Van Doren, Tuesday Weld, John
Carradine, and Martin Millner (of "Adam 12" fame), this, uh, "unique"
production includes the snappy theme song, "Sexpot goes to College".

The SF aspects of the film are provided by "THINKO", a talking robot
who is part of a college R&D project.  I don't want to generate
a spoiler (HA!) so I won't go into the exciting details, except to
note that this thing is clearly a comedy, and definitely knows it.
Interestingly, it probably would have been totally un-funny (and thusly
a total flop) in 1960, but viewed from the vantage point of almost
a quarter century, its true "merit" shines through.

If "Beauty and the Robot" ever shows up in your area, give it a looksee!
By the way, it's the best performance I've seen Millner give since
"The Private Life of Adam and Eve"... I will restrain from comment at
this time on THAT classic.

--Lauren--

P.S.  As I type this, I'm watching "The Tomorrow People" on
Nickelodeon.  This THAMES import, unlike most Nickelodeon programming
(which is generally first rate) is a real EL STINKO.  It's technical
quality is SO BAD that it makes Dr.  Who's special effects look SUPERB
by comparison.  I mean, man, like, uh, YUCHHHH.

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 20:37:32-PDT
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Subject: sunspots

   Since we here at the High Altitude Observatory are in the business
of studying the sun, I would like to point out that there ARE things
that are really correlated (not randomly) with sunspot cycles, such as
static on the airwaves, Northern lights (and of course Southern lights
too, but I have never seen those), and many other things too, like
incidence of mental illness (which has also been well-correlated with
the full moon). These are not "standard examples of how you can pull
fascinating things out of thin air", but are rather some of the
products of research by solar physicists and psychiatrists. I myself
am only a computer jockey, but I suspect some of the people here who
have spent careers studying sunspots and their effects (or providing
data for the psychiatrists to do their correlations with) would take
exception to this "example". Naturally, there are those who do come up
with "fascinating things out of thin air", like how many Coke bottles
are dropped on the floor in an arcade in New Jersey), but I just
wanted the solar scientists' case to be heard. Besides, how do you
know there isn't a relation between the two? Some people believe in
astrology, which is basically the premise that the position of the
planets and stars at a given time can affect us, so is it really that
far-fetched (especially for someone who is into science fiction!) to
believe that sunspots could have some weird unexplainable apparently
coincidental effects on us? (Weird in the sense that our current
scientific knowledge is inadequate to explain them as anything other
than coincidence). Since I am getting a bit far afield I will stop
now.

                   GREG (menlo70!hao!woods@Berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1981 1623-EST
From: Lawrence J. Kaufman (LJK at MIT-MC) <UC.LARRY at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Re-written Stories

I am not on the SF-LOVERS mailing list.  I happened to be looking over
my apartment mates shoulder and notices a small error.  This was the
heading, and here is what I found from looking in the book, "Sharra's
Exile".

          Date: 20-OCT-1981 23:26
          From: MARIAH::GARDNER
          Reply-to: "MARIAH::GARDNER c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
          Subject: Re-written Stories

The information that appeared concerning the Darkover rewritings is
slightly in error.  "Sharra's Exile" is replacing "Sword of Aldones"
not "Heritage of Hastur".  Ms. Bradley states in a note at the
beginning of "Sharra's Exile" concerning the book that "I decided not
to rewrite, but to write an entirely new book based on events in the
same time frame as "Sword" [of Aldones].

However, "The Bloody Sun" was rewritten.  Originally copywrited in
1964, the new version is copywrite 1979.

--- Larry Kaufman
    uc.larry at MIT-EECS at MIT-AI

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 22:20:58-PDT
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Subject: Dream machines

An excellent treatment of some of the more technical issues is in
Varley's "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" -- I'd say more, except that I
don't think I could avoid a spoiler warning.

Incidentally, Lauren, I don't think you should have mentioned the
possibility that you're living in a machine existence right now.
People will start muttering about rebooting the Lauren computer
again....

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 19:13:36 EDT (Saturday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Dream Machines

"I'm a solipsist, myself, I don't understand why MORE people aren't
solipsists..."

The dream-machine notion was discussed extensively in an ethics class
I took last year.  Most people react negatively to living such an
artificial existence, though they are rarely able to explain what is
wrong with doing so.  Frequently the Star Trek pilot, "Glass
Menagerie" is mentioned as the only way such an existence would be
acceptable--if it is the only way remaining for a person to be happy.

A hundred years ago, Jeremy Bentham, an originator of Utilitarianism,
announced that "Pushpin is as good as poetry," [Pushpin, I guess, is a
form of bowling].  His point (as a Utilitarian) was that good was
measured by the amount of happiness something engenders, in which case
"pushpin" is no doubt much better than poetry, or perhaps even
studying mathematics or science [these latter two are in doubt, not
because I am a technical chauvinist, but because science has
contributed to people living healthier, richer (enriched by pushpin
and poetry, no doubt) lives], because more people enjoy pushpin than
enjoy reading poetry.  Perhaps today I should say more people enjoy
"Asteroids" than enjoy poetry....

John Stuart Mill, another Utilitarian (but an intellectual as well)
thought there were some pleasurable things that had more intrinsic
value than others, though being a utilitarian, he was hard-pressed to
explain the source of that intrinsic value.  I think that most of us
would tend to agree.

There are a couple of analogies that immediately come to mind:  How do
you feel about Louis Wu becoming a wirehead?  What's wrong with his
doing so?  Why is it you want him to stop?  (also, why should HE feel
guilty about it?) I suppose one could argue that he's not out there
creating any happiness for anyone else.  I don't think this is the
correct answer, however, for my argument, see the spoiler section at
the end of this message.


Another analogy that comes to mind (because I just saw the film
"Ticket to Heaven" at the Orson Welles Theatre in Cambridge, about a
person's induction into a thinly-disguised religious cult in S.F.) is
that of religious cults.  People join religious cults and turn
themselves into happy little robots.  THEY can't tell that they aren't
happy (so maybe they really are happy).  What's wrong with being a
happy Hare Krishnan or Moonie, if happiness is what your ethical
system is based on?

I don't know about you, but I think there is SOMETHING wrong.  Maybe
happiness is the wrong thing to base your ethical system on.

Here's an idea: how about Freedom?  In the case of the wirehead,
you've given your freedom to a little box of pleasure.  In the case of
the Moonie, you've given your freedom to a lie.

What about the Dream machine?  If you enter into it for life, then
you've handed over your freedom to the technicians that run the
machines.  They may not screw around with your abilities and reasons
for making a choice, but they come close enough to be accused of it,
and you will never know.

There is another common thread here: the wirehead, the Moonie, and the
machine Dreamer are letting their minds be manipulated by outside
forces.  In a vacuous sense, this is always true--we are always
influenced by our surroundings.  But in these cases, its not merely
influence, its control--or at least something that treads near to
control...I guess this is the same thread, after all this hearkens
back to individual freedom.  This kind of thing is also why subliminal
advertising is so objectionable -- it's mind control.  Mind control is
bad because it removes the ability of an individual to be free.

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 10/25/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It reveals one of the
major events at the end of John Varley's novel WIZARDS.  Readers who
have not read the work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1981 19:13:36 EDT (Saturday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Dream Machines

[SPOILER: for John Varley's "Wizard"--if you haven't read it, you
may want to skip the next paragraph]

Why should I feel Louis Wu, wirehead not being out there creating
happiness for other people is not an adequate explanation for not
wanting him to be one?  For this I turn to Varley's "Wizard".  Towards
the end of "Wizard" Gaby gets killed.  Gaia, in an attempt to placate
Cirrocco, offers to resurrect her (she even promises not to mess
around with the wiring of Gaby's mind).  Cirrocco is outraged, and
refuses, because neither she nor Gaby would ever know that Gaia had
kept her promise not to rewire Gaby's brain, and that doubt would be
impossible to live with.

[END OF SPOILER for "Wizard"]

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-OCT  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #99
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 OCT 1981 1050-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #99
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 31 Oct 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Bugs & Query for "Quest of the Three Worlds" &
                  Title and Author Query Answered &
              Deathworld Trilogy & To the Stars Trilogy,
     SF Music - DUNE Score Query & Raiders of the Lost Ark Theme,
   SF Topics - SF Universes as D&D Worlds & Borrowing Characters &
             Editing & Dreaming,  Spoiler - Logan's World
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1981 1013-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: A new book


This Sunday's SF Chronicle REVIEW Magazine carried an ad for a new
book.  The banner read:

        'What if the bugs in our computers were real??'

and the ad shows a picture of an ant standing behind a copy of the
book, which is appropriately titled: BUGS.  Further down, it describes
some of the consequences of having all the computers in the world
infested by insects.  Real bugs!!  I only wish there were some way to
adequately guffaw by electronic mail.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1981 16:11:49-PST
From: ihnss!ihuxp!takao at Berkeley
Subject: "Quest of the Three Worlds"

I am looking for a copy of "Quest of the Three Worlds" by Cordwainer
Smith.  If anyone knows how I may obtain this book, please send a
reply to me (not to sf-lovers).

                        Thank you,

                        John Takao Collier

------------------------------

Date: 26 October 1981 1352-EDT
From: Ellen Lowenfeld at CMU-10A
Subject: Jewish Science Fiction

The book to which Barry Megdahl was referring is called Wandering
Stars (I think) and is edited by Jack Dann. (I am sure).  It contains
Harlan Ellison's story and several other good ones.  (I liked the one
about the Jew from Mars ...)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1981 1620-EST
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ at NLM-MCS>
Subject: Jewish Science Fiction

The book referred to is WANDERING STARS (I think it was edited by Jack
Dann).

By the way, with respect to the DUNE movie: when I first heard about
it I was told that Pink Floyd was doing the score.  Does anyone know
if there's any truth in that, and if so are they still involved?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1981 14:30:58-CST
From: jon at uwisc
Subject: WildWildWest/RotLA music

The theme from "the Wild Wild West"
and the theme from "Raiders of the Lost Ark"
share the following rhythmic pattern, on rising pitches:
   _____   _____
   |  -|   |-  |
   |   |   |   |
  O|. O|  O|  O|.

The notes are not the same, nor is much else about the two themes.

        jon mauney

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1981 13:13:27-PST
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Various and sundry items

     I have a decent ear for music, and am familiar with both the
Wild, Wild West and RotLA themes. There is NO melodic or harmonic
relationship whatsoever.  A certain very vague connection in the
rhythmic patterns is about all I can believe exists.
     Re: Jewish SF anthology. This is probably \\Wandering Stars//,
edited by (I believe) Jack Dann. If not, try Gardner R. Dozois. I
believe he may have had a hand in it, too.
     Re: Deathworld series. I thought that the original work,
\\Deathworld//, was quite good. The basic idea (what happens to a
planet on which psionic life forms live when an alien race moves in
and reveals its hostility by its thoughts) was very interesting, and
its consequences well thought out.  The subsequent novels did not
excite me quite as much. \\Deathworld 3// is nothing more than a
retelling of the story of the Terran historical nomad Ghengis Khan.
Another name by which he was known is Temujin (or Temuchin--both names
seem to have as much variety in spelling as Ayatollah or
Qaddafi-Kadaffy-Khadaffi-etc.). Note the similarity in names to that
of the antagonist in \\Deathworld 3//.
    Recently received: a new Harry Harrison trilogy entitled \\To the
Stars//.  Seems to have seen magazine publication somewhere from looks
of copyright page. Does anybody know anything about where it came
from? When I can get it read (other duties have been claiming priority
lately), will send a review.

                                        Bill Laubenheimer

------------------------------

Date: 21-Oct-1981
From: JOHN PAINTER@KIRK
Replt-to: "JOHN PAINTER@KIRK c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: The story of Dallas Egbert

I would like to clear up some of the mis-conceptions concerning the
M.S.U. student who was reported to be a member of a cultist group that
acted out DND in the steam tunnels on the M.S.U. campus.

Dallas Egbert (the party in question) was attending M.S.U. more or
less against his wishes at his parents \request/.  I met him several
times and he seemed pleasant, intelligent, and somewhat driven.  The
summer of his 16 year (yes thats right, he was sixteen and attending
college during a summer term) he more or less was getting uptight
about his parents expectations and was wondering what to do about it.

He solved the problem in a non-unique way.  He left for the southwest
U.S.  He didn't make it.  He ended up working on oil fields in
Arkansas and Mississippi and other states in that general area.  More
on this later.

In the meantime, his disappearance sparked an investigation by both
police and several private investigators.  While researching all this
the press discovered the M.S.U. Tolkien Fellowship, SCA, DND, and the
infamous steam tunnelers.  All of these organizations, and I use the
term capriciously, were somehow linked together, probably due to the
fact that the \memberships/ overlap a great deal.  The National
Enquirer even paid off a member of the SCA (or a person who stole a
set of armor) to pose opening a manhole and climbing in.  (it was an
electrical access but who is interested in accuracy at the N.E.)  It
is another matter altogether that the 105-130 degree heat (or hotter
near the physical plant) tends to fry you even without several layers
of padding or armor.  The press picked up the photo and instant cult
was started.  The stories about people dungeoning in steam tunnels in
full armor with live steel soon followed.  THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH
PEOPLE AT M.S.U. or anywhere else I hope.

The investigation peaked with the discover of a suicide note and large
amounts of illicit substances in his dorm room.  The suicide note was
fairly cryptic and the investigation grew larger and finally
terminated when he was found.

Meanwhile (back at the ranch?) Dallas was drinking in a bar one night
with the (oil) riggers he worked with and told one of his \friends/
who he was (the story as I heard it had the bar TV on the news with
his story on, but that is unconfirmed).  The person then turned in a
report of Dallas's whereabouts to a private detective involved on the
case.

Dallas was then a visitor on a full time basis to an \institution/ for
a short time.  He then went home to his parents and started to pick up
the pieces and try to lead a life closer to the norm for a 16 year
old.

The story does not however have a happy ending, Dallas again enrolled
in M.S.U. as a full time student.  His parents continued to pressure
him on his performance (why I don't even want to wonder) and finally
Dallas could take no more.  When he went home on a break he decided to
take the ultimate out; he took a large caliber revolver and shot
himself in the head.  This got much less press than the original
disappearance, as would be expected.

Hopefully this answers all the questions about the incident.  I know
this is long for a submission but it should clear up all the questions
regarding this matter and let SFL get on to some more pleasant issues.

/The john painter

------------------------------

Date:  22 October 1981 11:15 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Other people's characters

The use of other people's characters is common in the mystery genre
(witness all the Holmes stories by other than Doyle), although there
seems to be an unwritten rule that you don't use the detective of a
living author.  One interesting variant is writing the authors
themselves into stories--Hammett and Chandler have both appeared as
characters in recent books.  Has anybody in SF ever done that?  I am
not referring to characters based on authors, but actual literal use
of the name and personality.  A confrontation between Joanna Russ and
John Norman in some suitable universe would be worth contemplating.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 1339-PDT
From: Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: editing.

Is it just my imagination, or has the quality of editing gone down
drastically in the past few months?  The last several paperbacks (from
different companies) I've read have had so many typos they look like
fanzines.  Are authors being sent galleys these days?  Do they look at
them?  I found not only spelling errors in Bradley's latest, but also
several inconsistencies that a good once over should have cleared up.
Things like referring to Vainwal as Darkover in one line of a
paragraph, then getting it right a few words on down the line.  I also
found that her characters were inconsistent in action and knowledge,
making me wonder if she even re-read what had been written, or just
assumed that all of us who love Darkover would read it and accept
without question what she gave us.  I personally like "The Sword of
Aldones" a great deal more than the supposed improvement of "Sharra's
Exile".  Just hope this isn't indicative of a trend through all of SF
and Fantasy to get books out there on the shelves, regardless of
quality.

                                         amyjo

------------------------------

Date: 22 October 1981 1841-EDT
From: Jamie Radcliffe at CMU-10A
Subject: Dreamworlds

This sounds similar to a sub-section of The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem.
In it there is a story about someone who is essentially a E.E. + some
Mech E. , who tries to kill an emperor by plugging him into a machine
that generates a dream so real that the emperor will never want to
leave it. The mechanic is thwarted on his first couple of attempts
because the emperor is to egotistical to stay in any one dream.
Finally he traps him in a e dream that looks exactly like the scene
just before he was plugged into the machine. The emperor looses his
temper and trys to plug in again, and gets the same results, after
several repititions of that he starts pulling out the plug, but he's
completely lost track of how many levels he's gone down. Exit one
emperor in a white truck...

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 10/27/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It reveals some plot
details of Logan's World, the sequal to Logan's Run.  Readers who have
not read this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 22 October 1981 -- 2135 EDT
From: Adam Buchsbaum <research!sjb at Berkeley>
Subject: Dream Worlds

This may be a bit of a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read Logan's
World, the sequel to Logan's Run -- be forewarned!!

When writing about the latter, I clean forgot about Logan's World.  In
it, Logan is told that Jessica, now his wife, was killed after being
captured by a band of gypsies.  After this, he decides that his only
life and reason for living was with her (and their now dead son Jaq).
Therefore, he goes in search of and finds a drug called R-11, normally
given as a type of pain killer -- it induces hallucinations of the
past, much like the dream machine in Logan's Run.  He buys a big
enough dosage to put him under for life...what actually happens I will
not reveal.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-NOV  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra   V4 #100
*** EOOH ***
Mail-from: ARPANET site MIT-AI rcvd at 2-Nov-81 1618-PST
Date: 02 NOV 1981 1835-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject:  SF-LOVERS Digest Extra   V4 #100
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Remailed-date:  5 Nov 1981 0536-PST
Remailed-from: Jim McGrath (SF-LOVERS moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Remailed-to: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra     Mon, 2 Nov 1981        Volume 4 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:
            Administrivia - Special Digests on Kiddie SF,
                 Children's Cartoons - Clutch Cargo &
    The Big World of Little Adam & DODO the Kid from Outer Space &
   Colonel Bleep & Roger Ramjet & Fireball XL5 & Tennessee Tuxedo &
      Felix the Cat & Betty Boop & Larriat Sam & Tom Terrific &
        Peabody and Sherman & Rocky and Bullwinkle & Underdog
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3:35pm  Monday, 2 November 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: Special Digests on Kiddie SF

Last spring children's science fiction, in both book and video form,
was an extremely active discussion topic.  Due to several rather
severe difficulties, that discussion was abruptly terminated, leaving
many messages still in the queue and the topic unexplored (or
unexploited) in some aspects.

This Special Digest is the first in a series of extra editions
designed to eliminate this backlog of messages and provide a forum for
further discussion of this topic.  All submissions concerning
children's science fiction will appear in these Special Digests, while
each day the regular digests will continue discoursing on their usual
topics.  Thus when sending messages to SF-LOVERS, please do not
include comments appropiate to BOTH types of digests in a single
submission.  When this occurs the message will be broken up into two
separate messages and the you will be queried as to whether they
should run as separate submissions.  This query process will usually
greatly increase the turnaround time for these messages, reducing
their impact on the current discussion.

Originally the discussion of children's science fiction "temporarily"
gave way to the summer SF movies which became the most actively
discussed topic.  Combined with a generally high volume of messages,
this hiatus lengthened to a point where the children's science fiction
topic could not be easily reactivated.  Now that submissions have
begun touching upon aspects of this topic it appears appropriate to
begin distributing this material once again.

Later on this week a transcript of last spring's discussion will be
available for FTP distribution.  This wealth of information should
also help in reducing the amount of overlap between last spring's
discussion and the present one.

I'm sorry about this delay of over 4 months in distributing these
messages, and hope the discussion will flow smoothly.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1981 1248-PDT (Monday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Clutch Cargo

... and his pals Spinner and Paddlefoot.

I know the theme, but since the net whistling protocol is still in the
RFC stages, I am afraid I can't pass it along (I can't write music,
sad to say).  But if anyone locally wants to spark some ragged old
brain cells, give me a call and I'll whistle away.

--- Clutch Cargo always looked like it consisted of cardboard cutouts
with semi-real lips sticking through the mouth holes.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 05/13/81 10:05:35
From: TRB@MIT-MC
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V3 #120

I remember something about The Big World of Little ADAM (not Atom).  I
remember it had a neat theme song and it was sort of oriented toward
the intellectual kiddie more than other cartoons, I associate it with
the Gemini space program.  Other interesting SF oriented cartoon of
that era - DODO the Kid from Outer Space, Colonel Bleep, Roger Ramjet,
and Fireball XL5.  A lot of the shows which didn't seem too scientific
had Mad Scientists, like Tennessee Tuxedo (Clyde Crashcup and
Leonardo?), and Felix the Cat (The Professor).  Clyde Crashcup was
always messing up; that seemed to be a common trait of eccentric
scientists, and these scientists often seemed to be headquartered in
astronomical observatories.

Betty Boop had her fantastic moments too; I recently saw an episode
called Crazy Town where birds swam and fish flew, men went to the
barbers and grew hair on their bald heads as they were being serviced,
and women went to wig shops to have their entire heads replaced (this
particular practice seemed to upset Betty Boop the most).  The train
she rode into this Crazy Town was sucked in and out of black holes,
the whole episode was quite interesting.  The animation was inspired,
the music was quite snappy.  I saw it on a program called something
like Matinee at the Bijou, on New Jersey Public Television.

They were terrific, why don't they write 'em like that anymore?

Excuse this indulgence, but it's been my holy grail, and as long as
we're on the subject of cartoons...  There was a cartoon on Captain
Kangaroo called Larriat Sam.  Larriat Sam had a horse called Tippy
Toes, and their archrival was a fellow called Bad Lands Meany.  WHAT
WAS BAD LANDS MEANY'S SIDEKICK'S NAME?  This has been bothering me for
a long time.  Of course, CK also gave us Tom Terrific, and Manfred the
Wonder Dog.

OH, and speaking of wonder dogs, who can forget Simon and Peabody,
well, someone and Peabody, I forget.  I'd better stop.


[ That's Mr. Peabody and his boy companion Sherman.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 81 9:18-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: And now...

    "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!"
    "Again?"
    "Nothin' up my sleeve...  Presto!"  (Roar!  It's a lion.)  "No
doubt about it, I gotta get a new hat."
    "Now, here's something we hope you'll really like..."

    "And now..."
    "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!"
    "Again?"
    "Nothin' up my sleeve...  Presto!"  (Roar!  It's a tiger.)
    "Wrong hat?"
    "I think a seven-and-a-half."
    "Now, here's something we hope you'll really like..."

    "And now..."
    "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!"
    "Again?"
    "Nothin' up my sleeve...  Presto!"  (Roar!  It's a rhino.)  "Hoo!
Don't know my own strength."
    "Now, here's something we hope you'll really like..."

    "And now..."
    "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!"
    "But that trick never works."
    "This time for sure..."  (Pulls Rocky out of the hat.)  "Well, I'm
gettin' close."
    "Now, it's time for a special feature..."

That usually meant it was time to step into the Way-back machine and
view Peabody's Improbable History.  Remember the opening sequence--
with the march of time and the janitor trailing behind to sweep up
the mess?

This show re-used an incredible amount of footage.  About as much
happened in the three or so cliff-hangers (each of which featured not
just one, but two titles, both plays on words) per show as happens in
an hour-long soap opera, which isn't saying much--the typical soap
opera nowadays has two minutes of melodrama followed by two minutes of
commercial.  The difference is that every minute of The Adventures of
Rocky & Bullwinkle was entertaining enough to give you the impression
the show was just jam-packed.

Later on, I guess Bullwinkle was so popular (or just distinctive?)
that the show billed Bullwinkle before Rocky.  "Bullwinkle and Rocky"
doesn't have the same ring, though.  Anybody ever notice how the
closing credits came in two distinct parts?  I think that must have
been so that the station could cut right to the commercials if it
wanted instead of showing the full long form of the credits.

It's hard to picture some other person doing those voices.  It's
almost a sin to think in those terms.  That, of course, doesn't apply
to the narrator, and I think Joseph Conrad's style will stay with me
for a long time.

------------------------------

Date: 20 July 1981 14:27 edt
From: Gubbins.4506i14TK at RADC-Multics
Subject: Bullwinkle & Natasha's Last Name

     As a new member of SF-Lovers, I have been trying to read up on
all the back issues.  This might be a little late, but........

     Bill Scott was the voice of Bullwinkle Moose, Dudley Doright and
Mr. Peabody.  Both Rocky (Rocket J. Squirrel) and arch villainess
Natasha Fatale (Yes, she has a last name) were brought to life by June
Foray, who also did the voice to Granny in Bugs Bunny-Warner Brothers
cartoons.  Paul Frees was the voice of Natasha's accomplice, Boris
Badenov.  The incomparable trio of Hans Conreid, Edward Everett Horton
and Charlie Ruggles played, respectively, Snideley Whiplash (Dudley's
nemesis), the narrator of "Fractured Fairy Tales," and Aesop in the
equally fractured fables of "Aesop and Son."

     Did anyone ever compile the list of Bullwinkle episodes???

                                                  Til next time ---
                                                      Gern

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 81 8:46-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Important discovery

Do you realize what amazing fact the data in this digest reveal, given
one other well-known fact?  No, no, it's long been known that light
waves can go faster than c, so it's not that.  (Don't worry... you
can't get *signals* to go that fast.)  No, this is something truly
momentous:  guess what Rocky, Bullwinkle, and Mr. Whoopee all have in
common?  It's obvious, isn't it?

Suffice it to say that Bullwinkle's middle initial is not T.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1981 1919-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: BILL PERKINS
Subject: Old Cartoons

[Relayed from Dave C in Boston who doesn't currently have access - twep]

I'm Tom Terrific,
Greatest Hero ever.
There isn't any name for me
        be - cause I'm so clever.
I can be what I want to be,
        and if you'd like to see,
        then follow ... just follow ... me.

I can be a plane up high,       [sound of a jet plane]
A diesel train go roaring by,   [sound of a diesel train]
A bumble bee,                   [buzz]
or a tree,                      [silence]
It's me!

        <repeat first stanza>

And Mansfred, da wunda dog.

        *> Does anyone remember Rudy Kazootie? <*

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 1981 1602-PDT (Saturday)
From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: miscellaneous stuff

Hmmm.  We sure are branching out over a variety of topics...

---

As for TOM TERRIFIC, who could EVER forget Mighty Manfred, the Wonder
Dog!

Tom:  C'mon Manfred, let's save those people!
Manfred:  I'd rather just sleep, Tom...

Tom did indeed always wear a funnel.  He and Manfred lived in a
treehouse.  Tom's primary ability was to transform himself into any
animal or object, but the target animal/object would always be wearing
a funnel!

Crabby Appleton was the chief villain, causing Tom all sorts of
problems.  In one episodic sequence (I think each sequence lasted for
5 episodes), Crabby stole all the holidays from the calendar, causing
immeasurable grief!

In another sequence, aliens land on Earth (they came in flying saucers
that, like children's toy tops, had a handle in the center that went
up and down to get them started spinning!  The aliens capture Manfred,
and thinking he was a "typical" Earth creature, tranform themselves by
the millions into duplicate Manfreds, to allow "easy" infiltration
into society!

---

More on Underdog.  Yeah, Polly Purebred had an honorary title of
"Sweet".  DUFTY is to be congratulated for getting all the words of
the UNDERDOG "theme" correct!  Good job!

As for the opening sequence:

"One of the city's most humble and lovable characters, was
"shoe-shine-boy"...  MAN HAVING SHOE SHINED:  "Thanks shoe-shine-boy,
you're humble and lovable!"  SHOE-SHINE (as he bites on coin given to
him):  "Bless you sir!"

"But little did anyone know, that whenever there was a call for
help..."  "HELP, HELP, HELP, HELP, HELP!"  "Shoe-shine-boy became in
real life [exploding phone booth]... UNDERDOG!"

---

I was very pleased to find that Rocky and Bullwinkle have not yet
faded from the mass merchandising market!  A friend of mine gave me a
present recently consisting of ten "Bullwinkle and Rocky Puffy
Stickers".  These are little stickon plastic gizmos, in full color, of
characters from the show.  Included were two Natasha's, two
Bullwinkle's, Rocky, two Boris's, Mr. Peabody, Sherman, and one of the
Moonmen!  There should have been two more, but she apparently liked
them so much she removed them from the package before giving the rest
to me!  Sigh.

---

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 7 June 1981 18:52-EDT
From: Dennis L. Doughty <DUFTY at MIT-MC>
Subject: UNDERDOG


The arch-criminal's name in Underdog was "Simon Bar Sinister."
(Lauren -- wasn't Polly's full name "Sweet Polly Purebred?")  Also,
the mentor in Tennessee Tuxedo was named Phineas *J.* (not T.)
Whoopie.

 When criminals in this world appear
 And break the laws that they should fear
 And frighten all who see or hear
 The cry goes up from far and near
 For UNDERDOG (Underdog) UNDERDOG (Underdog)

         Speed of lightning, roar of thunder
         Fighting all who rob or plunder...
         UNDERDOG ...oh oh oh oh... UNDERDOG (Underdog)

 When in this world the headlines read
 Of those whose hearts are filled with greed
 And robbers steal from those who need
 The cry goes up with blinding speed
 For UNDERDOG ... etc

Can anyone remember the opening to Underdog?  I remember the ending of
it:
        Shoeshine Boy (Underdog) accepts a coin from a gentleman, says
        "Thank you sir," bites it, and the narrator continues...
        "Little did anyone know, but whenever there was a cry for help
        (HELP!, HELP! HELP!), Shoeshine Boy became in real life
(sic)...
        UNDERDOG!

What comes before?  --Dennis

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1981 07:34:54-PDT
From: decvax!sultan!sdh at Berkeley
Subject: Underdog opening and errata

        "One of the city's most humble and lovable characters
        was Shoeshine Boy..." (straightens up after shining shoe)
        "All finished, sir!"  "Thanks, Shoeshine Boy - you're
        humble and lovable." (hands him a coin) "Bless you, sir!"
        (bites coin, etc.)

Also, the correct line is

        "Speed of lightning, power of thunder"

                                - Scott

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-NOV  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #101
*** EOOH ***
Date: 03 NOV 1981 0835-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #101
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:
                SF Lovers - Breaking the Time Barrier,
SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title? & God Emperor of Dune &
        The Darkover Concordance & Series (Darkover/Vampires),
           SF TV - Tommorrow People,  Random Topics - Bugs,
       SF Topics - Physics Today (Sun) & Sequels and Prequels &
           Dreaming & Editing,  SF Music - A Pumpkin Carol
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 09:16 PST
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SFL breaks the time barrier!

Gee, that's really neat!  Vol 4 #99, dated October 31, arrived at 9am
on October 30 (Pacific Time).  Either it was sent via the Japan-TIP,
or the SFL administrators have broken the time barrier in an effort to
make up for the slow delivery of this past week.

        -- Don.

[ Mike Peeler, who handled the transmissions that day, informs me that
  it was "Obviously the latter.  It wasn't much of a time barrier
  after all."

  Actually, cases like this occasionally crop up, especially on
  weekend transmission. Like "real world" publications, the official
  date is always the one in the banner, the information in the message
  header's DATE-field simply reflecting the transmission (delivery)
  time.

  Anyway, the daily transmission schedule of the regular SF-LOVERS
  digests in now back in effect.  Sorry for the irregular
  transmissions last week.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1981 1302-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Location: The terminal in the corner...
Subject: Memory Implantation stories

Fred Pohl wrote one, about about a town and its people which are
accidentally destroyed, then recreated in miniature as an experiment.
I read it in /The Best of Frederik Pohl\, but it no doubt appears
elsewhere.  My copy of the book isn't around, so I can't provide the
title.  Anybody remember it?

                                          -   o
                                         -  -/-->
                                        -   O~\_

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1981 2347-PST
From:  William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>
Subject: New Dune book

My roommate bought the new Dune book "God Emperor of Dune",
and since it was free, I read it.  Here are my feelings:

Nano-review: Not bad, probably somewhere between "Dune" and
        "Dune Messiah" in quality. Buy or borrow the paperback.

Review: Leto II, half human, half sandworm, has been controlling
        the known universe for the last 3000 or so years (since
        he has the only remaining supply of spice (more or less))
        People generally don't like the way he's running things,
        but Leto has his own goals and plans (the infamous
        golden path).  In the typical convoluted Dune style
        (wheels within wheels...), this is the story of Leto,
        his friends, and his enemies.  There are some interesting
        ideas on the differences between the sexes... Herbert was
        probably trying to be non-sexist by continually saying how
        much better women are than men as soldiers and such.  Also
        philosophical discussion on what it means to be a god, an
        emperor, a tyrant, a legend and/or a man.  Few bene Geserite
        proverbs as chapter headings (rats!).
        When you are finished, you probably still won't understand
        what happened (a trademark of Dune...)
        And YES, there could be more sequels...

Bill W

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 81 12:21:28-EDT (Fri)
From: Gregory Hogg <greg.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: TOMORROW PEOPLE

        While it is true that they spent all of 10 cents on the
special effects it is still a good show.  I have seen all most all of
the shows and really enjoy the way they tie what happen in one show
with another that my be 20 shows later.  The acting is poor, the
special effects are poor, but the ideas are first class.

                Power to the Turbos


                        Greg Hogg

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1981 11:39:55-EST
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Darkover chronology

   Walter Breen (Bradley's current husband) published THE DARKOVER
CONCORDANCE about a year ago; this contains extensive genealogies,
glossary, chronology, and so forth. I don't recall how it deals with
the problem of THE PLANET SAVERS, which (depending on which
correlations you believe) could happen either before or after SWORD OF
ALDONES/SHARRA'S EXILE, but has contradictions to the rest of Darkover
that make it hard to fit in anywhere.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 11:58:03-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Subject: series, sequels, and prequels

I've doing some more thinking about why Bradley's Darkover series has
improved over the years, and I've concluded that a major reason is
that she's written prequels rather than sequels.  A novel, especially
an adventure novel, needs a conclusion, a resolution of problems.
This, by its very nature, leaves a rather stable situation in the
assumed universe, which is a rather poor foundation for another novel.
On the other hand, a great many assumptions had to be made to create
the initial state -- and these assumptions are often revealed to the
reader by providing references to past "events".  Such incidents can
form the basis for new novels.  To be sure, one then could have
problems maintaining consistency -- the inner logic of the new novel
might dictate a somewhat different outcome that was discussed in the
first one, but Bradley made the decision not to worry too much about
that.  (That's actually a reasonable decision on many grounds -- look
at how many different versions of any historical incident you can
find.)


                --Steve Bellovin

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1981 11:45:06-EST
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re: Yarbro and Lynn

   I suspect that Yarbro is deliberately inverting the usual
male/female satisfactions to make an effective point.
   As Savonarola was previously in the Church people would have been
\\expected// to rebuff any sexual urges he might try to express.  It
should be noted that Yarbro's portrayal of S is at the extreme of
historical possibility (again possibly for didacticism)---it is
virtually impossible for a historian to be unbiased about S.  (The
Encyclopedia Britannica specifically asserts that there are no grounds
for believing that S refused his blessing to the dying Lorenzo di
Medici.)

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 30 October 1981  21:14-PST
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: In Reply to Greg Woods on sunspots

Obviously radio static and the northern lights are connected with
sunspots, since both have to do with particles from the sun.  I am
doubtful about a cause-effect relationship existing between sunspots
and mental illness, but I have not seen the data.  Even if so, the
validity of one correlation with sunspots does little to substantiate
another unrelated correlation.

It is true that some people believe in astrology, but none of them are
(sane) astronomers.  It is possible that sunspots lead to effects on
human behavior but damn unlikely!

                                        Ken

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1981 19:43:28-PST
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Subject: reply to reply on sun

  I never intended to say that I believe in astrology nor that I
believe any of these strange things that have been correlated with
sunspots, although I do believe that the correlation between sunspots
and mental illness is not just a coincidence. (After all, even Ken
agrees that sunspots can affect electrical phenomena, and what is the
human brain, really, other than a complicated mass of electrical
impulses.) The point of my message was not to advocate any of these
"strange" correlations with sunspots, but to point out that we have no
right to arbitrarily dismiss the data which shows such correlations as
mere coincidence simply because the science of psychology is not
sufficiently advanced to explain it. On the other hand, the lack of a
good scientific explanation for these things makes them very difficult
to claim as true based solely on data that *could* be a coincidence.

  I'll cut this off now as it is wandering a bit far afield.

                 GREG (menlo70!hao!woods@Berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 1041-PST
From: Andrew I. Shore <CSD.SHORE at SU-SCORE>
Subject: 'Bugs'

  Tom Waldow's comment about the book on real bugs inside computers is
interesting, in that Capt. Grace M. Hopper (one of the great
old-timers in the computing biz) claims that the term 'bug' originated
due to a moth causing real problems inside a computer (a MARK I i
think).  The remains of said moth are taped inside her notebook.  BUGS
ARE REAL!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 11:04:21-EST
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: dream machines and right/wrongness

   I think I can put it a little more succinctly: a slave in a thorium
mine with a wire in his head is "happy".
   I \can't/ object to other people freely choosing strange methods of
happiness providing only that they stay out of \\my// way (hence I
object to the Moonies because they are already a political nuisance
way out of proportion to their numbers in parts of this country), much
as I might like to do so in the case of people whose minds still have
a large contribution to make to society.
   Let's take, for an example of the above, Stephen Hawking (sp?).
Hawking is a brilliant English physicist who many people feel is on
the track of a theory unifying the four forces; Hawking also has
advanced (but stable) amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (aka Lou Gehrig's
disease) which ties him to a wheelchair and makes his speech and
writing virtually unintelligible (it's an indication of his intellect
that he does most of his theoretical work, what other physicists would
do on several blackboards or scratch pads, in his head). According to
the latest SCIENCE 81. If he did not have an established family (hence
some form of supportive responsibilities)---if he had only his work to
occupy his attention---who could object if one day he simply checked
into an institution and had them wire his head, or attach him to an
experiential video machine (as in John D. MacDonald's "Spectator
Sport")?
   I also agree with the reduction of the question to one of freedom,
although I claim that someone who surrenders his own freedom in such
circumstances is difficult to criticize; where I object is to other
people making this choice for someone. (I have some distrust for the
feel of this position since it is right on the line espoused by
Heinlein near the end of "If This Goes On . . . " (a film on
constitutional rights (to reeducate people after the religious
dictatorship has fallen) is preceded by a hypnotic introduction) and I
now am suspicious of anything of his even from that far back, but it
also comes close to some positions I have taken.)  This is the ground
for objecting to B. F. Skinner's proposals: not simply that they take
away freedom, but that they do so irrevocably and without any
consideration that the people who make the decisions are just as
human, just as biased, just as \fallible/ as those they would control.
   I suspect large portions of the country would disagree with this
position in the current political climate (cf. in THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER:
"They wanted to make me over into someone I would have disapproved of."
---TSR makes allegations about the US govt. that a lot of this country
would call treasonous) but it's interesting to see how this is
contrasted in other areas. There's been a lot of argument recently
over what to give to patients in severe pain who are virtually certain
to die, and soon:  morphine just stuns you, but the medical
establishment (among others) strongly objects to heroin for such
people even though it can make them feel better. Comments?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 14:46:52-EST
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: editing

   Maybe I'm jaundiced, but I've had a low opinion of the quality of
editing in SF from most of the big houses for some time now.
Exceptions come mostly in hardbacks from reputable houses getting into
SF (e.g., St. Martin's Press, Houghton Mifflin) and even those aren't
immune; I got a bound proof set of THE GOLDEN TORC that was riddled
with typoes (though I expect most of them will be corrected before the
final printing.
   It is my understanding that most authors still get galleys, but
what they do with the galleys (and whether they do it fast enough to
make a difference (given tight publishing schedules) is up to them.
I've always considered MZB to be a bit short on self-criticism,
although her essay in the back of the revised THE BLOODY SUN was
enlightening.
   I would also guess that people become more aware of typoes the more
they read, but that's something for which I can't offer a coherent
reason.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 15:46:52-PDT
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Subject: A Pumpkin Carol

Bringing joy to the holiday season currently in effect, this one is
sung to the tune of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" (obviously).  It's
from Musical Chas:  a filksong fanzine, vol. 2, no. 1, credited to
"Ghost Writer", and titled "Waiting for the Great Pumpkin".

[ For more information on obtaining Musical Chas please send
  queries to Paul directly.  --  Jim ]

     God rest ye merry gentlemen, at nothing take you fright,
     For over in the pumpkin patch, the Great One comes tonight,
     Rising with his sack of toys by the bright moonlight,

     CHORUS: Oh, tidings of tricks and treats,
             Tricks and treats,
             Oh tidings of tricks and treats.

     The Great Pumpkin flies through the skies on Hallween each year
     To see just who's been spreading gloom or bringing lots of cheer.
     He brings nice toys to girls and boys in houses far and near,
     CHORUS.

     We'll meet out in the pumpkin patch, my friends, on Halloween
     We'll wait there for the Great Pumpkin amid the orange and green
     And nibble on our candy bars and bags of jelly beans.
     CHORUS.

It's not perfect but it covers a long-neglected subject.  Think good
thoughts as you sing Pumpkin carols in that most sincere of Pumpkin
patches.
                                                paul

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-NOV  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #102
*** EOOH ***
Mail-from: ARPANET site MIT-AI rcvd at 4-Nov-81 1135-PST
Date: 04 NOV 1981 1245-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #102
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & The Captive &
        Contact & Series (Witch-World/Time-Trader/Darkover) &
              The Door Through Space,  SF Radio - HGttG,
             SF Topics - Borrowing Characters & Dreaming,
                     Random Topics - The Mind's I
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1981 11:02 EST
From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Title, author request

Maybe someone can help me on this one.  About all I remember (from
quite a while ago (> 10 years)) is that it involved a guy on some
odyssey through the universe in search of something.  The standard
method of displacement was via teleportation, accomplished by just
walking through a "gateway".

Key fragment: one particular class of bad guys was the "Black
Bellers", so called because they were followed around by large
floating black bells which contained their life support or some such.
At one point, the hero kills a Beller, and rides his bell over a cliff
to escape an even more imminent threat, hoping the bell's anti-gravity
would equalize his weight carrying him gently to the bottom.  There
was also some kind of magic horn whose notes would cause some desired
event when sounded in the right place.

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date:  3 November 1981 11:57 est
From:  JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Review: \The Captive/ by Robert Stallman

nano-review: *****

Review:

The Captive is the Second Book of the Beast, a series that begins with
The Orphan (reviewed earlier this year in this digest).  The Captive
traces the further development of the Beast, and gives a few more
details about the nature of the creature.  The Beast is an intelligent
being with powers above those of humans - it has several senses we
don't have, it is stronger and tougher.  To exist in the human world,
the beast can chose to take the form of a human - with a full set of
memories and personality.  Having done so, a new person is created,
who then vies with the Beast for the right to exist independently.
The Beast and the Human form it takes (in this book, a fellow named
Barry Golden) are aware of each other, somewhat cooperative, somewhat
antagonistic.  Each would prefer to live a full time life.  Neither
can.

As the beast ages, so does its human form.  In this book, the beast
reaches manhood (in the earlier work it took the shapes of youths),
and Barry takes a wife.  Along the way, the beast is for a time held
captive, and exhibited to the public.  There are dangers, but the
Beast overcomes them.  The true problems the beast faces are harder to
overcome then the menace of discovery.

Foremost on the tenets of the Beast's inherited wisdom is the Rule of
Solitude: Alone is Safe (A good rule for a creature that at best can
expect humans to treat it as a freak, at worst to slaughter it).  But
the Beast, for reasons it does not know, finds himself involved always
with branches of a single human family.  The humans that the Beast
creates may actually have real pasts, and not be simple inventions.
There are forces at work here that are more powerful than even the
Beast.  The Beast is trying to discover the sense of belonging, the
power of human love, and he does succeed, as the human Barry Golden.
But what existence does this offer the beast?

Why is this book so good?  First because of the powerful, fluid prose
style of Stallman.  The Beast has senses we don't have, but Stallman
does a fine job of conveying them.  How would it feel to be totally at
home in the desert night, racing along the sand, aware of every living
thing around you, rapt in the joy of the hunt?  The book is fun.

A second reason: Stallman writes of love, hope, bereavement in a
totally convincing, real manner.  I don't think this review is nearly
good enough.  There are all kinds of nuances and subtleties I'm
totally failing to convey.  In the name of non-spoilerhood I'm leaving
out all sorts of Good Stuff.

One disheartening note:  The book is marked copyright by the estate of
Robert Stallman.  I fear we can expect no more from this magnificent
author.

 The Captive, by Robert Stallman
 A Timescape Book, published by Pocket Books
 1981.  Paperback $2.50

jim davis

P.S. I would appreciate responses from others who've read this book.
If appropriate, send them to SF-LOVERS, otherwise, to me, JRDavis
@MIT-Multics

------------------------------

Date: 02-Nov-1981
From: AL LEHOTSKY at METOO
Reply-to: "AL LEHOTSKY at METOO c/o" <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Comments on V4, Issue 98
W.R.T. Newman.ES's speculation on Carl Sagan's new book.  The
        plot-line also sounds very similar to a number of other
        SF novels, including:

        Hoyle & Hoyle, "A for Andromeda"  [Is the title right?],
                in which a message is received telling how to build
                a super-computer


        ? and Leigh Richmond(?), "The Siren Stars" [this was
                serialized in ANALOG about 6 yrs ago.  My collection
                is gathering dust in the attic - anyone with a faster
                -access bulk memory is welcome to correct this]
                Again, I think that the aliens were shipping a
                "super-computer" design.


I suspect that there are any number of other possible entries.  The
"Trojan Horse" theme HAS been around for quite some time.  \One would
suspect that Homer's contemporaries accused him of stealing the real
"Trojan Horse" from some prior story-teller also!\

======================================================================

As further entries into the Series that Get Better [or Worse]:

        Andre Norton's First Witch-World Series, which had about 3
                volumes:
                Witch World
                Web of the Witch World, and
                ???

                The second batch of WW stories [which are "pure"
                fantasy certainly seemed down-hill to me.  Until I
                started reading them, I would buy ANY paperback
                written by Norton.  After a few of these I got a lot
                more picky.


        Andre Norton's Time-Trader's Series:

                Time Trader's
                Galactic Derelict
                Defiant Agents
                ....

                There are a number of later books in this series all
                set in the same "universe", all of which I enjoyed.
                Of course, I haven't read them in about 10 years, so
                they may not hold up as well as I remember.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1981 23:29:13-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Ancestry of Darkover

Darkover fans might be interested in reading Bradley's "The Door
Through Space".  It's an early work (1961) recently reprinted by Ace,
and contains many of the concepts and even words later used in the
Darkover stories.  For example, there are Dry-Towners who chain the
hands of their women, and characters swear by Sharra.  It's not a
particularly *good* book, it's merely interesting from an academic
point of view.


                --Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 3 November 1981  18:53-EST
From: Pat O'Donnell <PAO at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy request

Does anyone in the MIT area happen to have the 12th (last) episode of
HGttG on cassette?  If so, I would like to borrow it.  (Reply to
PAO@MIT-EE)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 18:55:32-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Subject: Authors in other folks books

Chester Anderson ("The Butterfly Kid") and Michael Kurland ("The
Unicorn Girl", among others) appear in each others' books; I think
that Tom (?)  Waters ("The Probability Pad") appears in both and
mentions them.

------------------------------

Date: 31 October 1981 15:48-EST
From: Matthew Jody Lecin <MJL at MIT-MC>
Subject: Other people's characters

Authors in the story?  Well, in DHALGREN, the hero Kidd looks (as he
describes what he sees in reflection of himself) kinda like the author
Delany...

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 2-NOV-1981 09:07
From: CHIPS::REDFORD
Reply-to: "CHIPS::REDFORD c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: sf authors as characters

A sort of marginal case of using sf authors as characters in sf novels
was "The Flying Sorcerors" by Larry Niven and David Gerrold.  The
tribal people in the novel have gods that are thinly disguised
authors, eg. Elcin, the small but terrible god of thunder and Niveen,
the god of tides.  The story describes how a stranded anthropologist
starts the Industrial Revolution among these people in order to get
back to his spaceship.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1981 01:08:24-EST
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: other people's characters

   Anthony Boucher's ROCKET TO THE MORGUE uses several thinly
disguised SF authors who were in California in the late 30's
(Heinlein, for instance, is mentioned as "Lyle Monroe" or some such).
   In INFERNO (Niven & Pournelle), Carpenter runs into someone who is
almost certainly fan "personality" Forrest J. Ackerman (the character
who is being continually run over by both the spendthrifts and the
misers), and he finds Vonnegut's tomb in the marble sepulchres (the
one with the green neon sign flashing "So it goes").
   A. Bertram Chandler's favorite character, Captain Grimes, runs into
Chandler himself in "Kinsolving's Planet Irregulars" or some such (the
affair starts when Grimes is summoned by a demon to be confronted by
Sherlock Holmes, whose pipe was discovered, anonymously, in a shop
window and given to Grimes).
   A number of SF writers, again thinly disguised by warped names,
appear in a mid-50's story about a convention which is broken up by
the strange gismo of Harry whatsisname.
   Asimov appears, in an unflattering portrayal, in his own MURDER AT
THE ABA, which is told by a character representing Asimov's
interpretation of Harlan Ellison.

   There are probably some other limited examples. Living authors tend
not to show up too much in other people's work for the same reason
other living people don't: legal problems (libel, theft of character,
etc.)  Note for instance that Fletcher Knebel's highly realistic
adventures (SEVEN DAYS IN MAY, VANISHED, etc.) seem to exist in a
parallel world; they're roughly contemporary but none of the major
figures in them are even recognizable parodies of anyone here.

------------------------------

Date:  1 Nov 1981 1330-MST
From: David Kohrn <OPER.KOHRN at UTAH-20>
Subject: Dreamworlds & Authors in stories

Dreamworlds:  Jamie Radcliffe's comment put me in mind of a book
called THE DUELING MACHINE by Ben Bova, in which a dream-type machine
is used as a means of non-lethal dueling to settle matters of honor.
The problem is that someone finds a way to make the combat lethal...

Authors in Stories:  I know of a couple of places.  In "100 Science
Fiction Short Short Stories" ed. by Isaac Asimov, in a story called,
"A mad publisher's delight", Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg are
pitted against one another; Isaac Asimov is the main character in his
MURDER AT THE ABC; and Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. appears in BREAKFAST OF
CHAMPIONS.
------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1981 0723-PST
From:  Craig E. Ward <Ward at ISIF>
Subject: DANGEROUS DREAMWORLDS

        Has anyone thought about some of the less appealing aspects of
Dream machines?  Arthur Clarke wrote a book (a long time ago for a
generation far, far away) in which people hooked themselves up and
stayed on for years.  When someone finally disconnected them, they
went crazy, their "reality" had been suddenly ripped apart.  I think
the book was "The Lion of Commarre."

        Another story appeared in "The Space Gamer" about a year ago
in which the government ran an arcade of various fantasies to help
keep down discontent.  Those who still weren't happy were tricked into
a fantasy that took them on a colonization expedition to the stars.
But then again, that might not be so bad.

/Craig

------------------------------

Date: 02-Nov-1981
From: PAUL DICKSON AT ZIP
Reply-to: "PAUL DICKSON AT ZIP c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Dream machines

Those interested in all ramifications of the dream machine idea should
rush out and buy a copy of "The Mind's I" by Hofstadter and Dennett.
The whole book is on the subject of where consciousness lies, what is
the soul, etc.

Each chapter is in two parts: an article or extract from someone
else's work (Stanislaw Lem stories, Turing's original AI paper, etc),
followed by commentary by Hofstadter and/or Dennett.

The whole is not quite as whimsical as "Goedel, Escher, Bach", but
almost.  A few Hofstadterian puns:

        Teleclone fall (describing a trip from Mars back to Earth
                by using a Teleclone booth)

        Is the soul more than the hum of its parts?

Particularly amusing is the dialogue between a mortal and God on
whether or not the mortal has a free will, why he does, and whether
God had a choice in the matter (!).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-NOV  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #103
*** EOOH ***
Date: 05 NOV 1981 0740-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #103
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:
        SF Books - Title Query Answered & Camber the Heretic &
      The Venus Belt,  SF Music - Raiders of the Lost Ark Theme,
Random Topics - Bugs & Steam Tunnels & Computer Graphics & D&D Subset,
             SF Topics - Borrowing Characters & Dreaming,
         SF TV - Dr. Who,  SF Movies - Dr. Strangelove Query,
                    Spoiler - Heinlein and Freedom
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  4 Nov 1981 1613-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Answer to gateways and black bellers

The book you are asking about is "A Private Cosmos", third in the
"World of Tiers" series by Philip Jose' Farmer.  The whole series, in
order, is:  The Maker of Universes; The Gates of Creation; A Private
Cosmos; Behind the Walls of Terra; and The Lavalite World.

The series is more or less about some powerful "Lords" who have the
ability to make their own universes.  Most of the books feature one of
the Lords (a nice guy, most of them are rotten clear through) and/or
one non-Lord named Kickaha (among other names) who is a contemporary
American.

I enjoyed most of the 5 books and recommend them for some light
reading.  My favorite is probably still the first one.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1981 11:39:38-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
In-real-life: Steven M. Bellovin
Subject: "Camber the Heretic"

I just finished Katherine Kurtz's latest Deryni book, "Camber the
Heretic".  It's not a fun book to read.  Anyone who's read the first
Deryni trilogy *knows* what's going to happen here (the Camber of
Culdi novels are set about 200 years before the first trilogy), and it
isn't pleasant.  Briefly, the Deryni (a "race" [sic] of humans
possessing some magical ability) are hated and feared by ordinary
humans, and become the victims of purges, murder, torture, rape,
pillage, etc.  The main characters fear this is coming, and strive in
vain to prevent it.  As I said, it's not pretty to read.

Of course, Kurtz does her usual magnificent job of describing the
time, the people, and the culture.  She's clearly an expert on the
medieval Welsh church, castle construction, weapons, etc., and one can
learn a great deal from reading her books.  Her magic violates some of
the usual conventions, though.  For example, it is neither inherently
good nor inherently evil -- there are Deryni protagonists on both
sides of the line -- but it *is* tied to religion.  Camber himself
wonders if religion is just a form of magic, but there are several
mystical incidents that show the religion to be basically true.  As
another example, there is no component of sexuality in Deryni magic.
Men and women both possess powers (though women rarely "Heal"), and a
woman's powers are not affected by her sex life.

One last note:  there will obviously be more Deryni books -- several
major plot elements are left unresolved.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Nov 1981 at 2111-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: THE VENUS BELT

^^^^^^^^^^^^ AUTHORS, PUNS, AND A RIP-ROARIN' GOOD READ ^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's intriguing that "SF authors as fictional characters", and "puns"
should crop up in SF-L on a day when I had planned to burble about L.
Neil Smith's THE VENUS BELT.  It's a sequel to THE PROBABILITY BROACH
which I had tried earlier but tossed aside after the first couple
pages because a book which starts out with a corpse having been flayed
and the skin neatly folded and laid over the back of a chair was *NOT*
my kind of a book!  But I may have been too hasty.

...BELT is exciting, ironic, fun, and razzle-dazzle with puns and
in-group references.  For one of the latter especially appropriate to
SF-L readers-- "computerwise, there's no such thing as a free crunch".
Or, if you want your references more blatant, there's mention of an
Admiral Heinlein (it's an alternate universe story), a town called
Nivenville, an asteroid named Bester 9656, a spaceship "Lord Kalvan",
and so forth.  There's an Emperor Norton University, but I have a
feeling that's some other reference I can't quite place (but betcha
Chip will), rather than our Andree.

It's \full/ of clever ideas-- like the elevator to the city in the
hollow, weight-free center of Ceres opening onto "a life-size replica
of M.C. Escher's RELATIVITY, potty plants, arches, and staircases
going every whichway, some people walking up the treads, and others
down the risers".

It reads very much like Janifer's SURVIVOR with a dash of Heinlein for
extra strength.  So it's back to THE PROBABILITY BROACH for me after
all, despite that neatly folded skin.  Anybody whom the "About the
Author" blurb says is "jointly owned by four cats" surely can't be
\all/ bad!

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1981 13:59:18-CST
From: jon at uwisc
Subject: sf music

yes. Chip Hitchcock and Paul Hilfinger are right, the rhythm is
  _____
  |  -|  |\  |
  |   |  |/  |
 x|. x| x|  x|.

in both RotLA and tWWW.  The relations of this pattern to the downbeat
differ.

Jon Mauney

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1981  09:54-PST
From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE
Subject: Origins of "BUG"

Gee - Now I heard that the term had originated in hardware, with
failures of buried cable being attributed to bugs eating through the
wires.

By the way, bugs still cause trouble, Stanford LOTS had a head crash
about a year ago, attributed to ants getting into the drive.

                                        Bugs forever!

                                                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 30 October 1981 1932-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: steam tunnels

What's wrong with steam tunnels?  I used to do it all the time at
Caltech.  It's not too hot.  They've even filmed movies down there.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 1981 0105-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: Computer Graphics Cartoon Article
         (CINEFANTASTIQUE V. 11, N. 4, p.  22-23.)

There is an article in the above mentioned magazine on the New York
Institute of Technology's computer generated animated feature cartoon
THE WORKS.  It has 3 examples of the imagery.  It is worth looking at
the examples.

--Bill (DAUL at OFFICE)

------------------------------

Date: 4 November 1981 14:57 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: D&D for little kids


I have severely subsetted D&D for little kids whose attention span and
note-taking ability isn't up to the whole catastrophe of Basic or
Advanced.  The results have play-tested well.  If there is enough
interest (say 5 requests or so) I will take the time to write it up.
Send requests to me directly.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1981 16:44:36-PST
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: Butterfly Kid/Unicorn Girl/Probability Pad

Chester Anderson and Michael Kurland appear in all three books; Thomas
A. Waters appears only in the latter two.

(Speaking of "Murder at the ABA," does anyone know of speculation on
possible homomorphisms of the Giles Devore character?)

                                James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1981 00:44:26-EST
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (B. Templeton)
Subject: Some notes:

Lucid Dreams :  These appear to be the only dreams that I have that I
can remember.  Is this because they occur in a more coawakened state?
comments?

Lauren's Dream machine :  I recall a story, having something to do
with the phrase "Lobe Job" in which a time traveller went to the
future to find that the pinnacle of life was being put into a machine
much like you described.  Anybody remember title, author, anthology?

Dr. Who : Some notes from my series guide:

"The Daleks" by Terry Nation, was indeed the 2nd series of the Doctor.
It may interest some to know that the 2nd series in the "Cube of Time"
season of Dr. Who was written by Douglas Adams, whom I assume is the
same as the former Monty Python writer and author of the Hitch Hiker's
Guide to the Galaxy.  This series was called "The Pirate Planate" and
just finished showing on TVOntario.  The year following that series,
starting with "Destiny of the Daleks" up to "The Horns of Nimon" had
Adams as script editor, and was the first season to feature Lalla Ward
as Romanadvoratrelundar, his time lord companion.  Tom Baker
eventually (in real life) married Lalla Ward, part of what came before
his replacement by Peter Davison as Dr. Who.

------------------------------

Date:  4 Nov 1981 2227-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Reply-To: "G.Roger@MIT-EECS" @ MIT-MC
Subject: Dr. Strangelove survival kit

Does anyone remember the exact contents of the survival kit featured
in the movie "Dr. Strangelove, or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and
Love the Bomb"?

The contents were recited after the words, "Survival kit contents
check.  In them you will find...."

(Please reply to me directly, not to SF-LOVERS.)

Thanks.

                                          -   o
                                         -  -/-->
                                        -   O~\_

                                        Roger

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/5/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses one of
the final scenes in Robert Heinlein's story "If This Goes On..."
Readers who have not read this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1981 16:02:12-PST
From: ihnss!ihuxn!djmolny at Berkeley
Subject: Heinlein and Freedom of Choice


Chip Hancock's points on freedom of choice were well taken, but he
misrepresents Heinlein in his arguments.  Heinlein may be an unsavory
old coot, but he is staunch in his defense of free will.

In "If This Goes On...", a brash young psychologist (well-meaning, but
over-zealous) develops an hypnotic film and presents it to his fellow
revolutionaries.  After a moving speech by one of the old-timers, the
revolutionaries decide not to submit anyone to psychological
conditioning without their consent.  This becomes one of the articles
of their Covenant and forms the background for the next story in the
book, "Coventry".


                                                            -- DJ

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #104
*** EOOH ***
Date: 06 Nov 1981 0250-EDT
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #104
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Title Query Answered & The Probability Broach &
               The Venus Belt & Dhalgren as Hero Query,
                Random Topics - Emperor Norton & Bugs,
       SF Topics - Dreaming & Purpose of SF & Fantasy Invasion,
              SF Fandom - Constellation (WorldCon 1983),
                    Spoiler - Heinlein and Freedom
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  5 Nov 1981 07:41-PST
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Here's the title


Denber.WBST's story of a guy on an odyssey through the universe via
gateways and pursued by "Black Bellers" is the World of Tiers series,
by Philip Jose Farmer.  I enjoyed the whole set, which presents one of
Farmer's brilliantly oddball commentaries on just how little we might
know about the meaning of creation.

        Jim Gillogly

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 18:18:19-PST
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: THE PROBABILITY BROACH & THE VENUS BELT

By another coincidence, I just started reading TPB this morning.  So
far, the "neatly folded skin" appears to have been a throw-away
shocker to emphasize the nastiness of 1987 Denver.  If so, effective.

Emperor Norton is a historical figure from turn-of-the-century San
Francisco.  Basically a flamboyant and popular bum.  Walked around in
top-hat and tails.  Could this be the reference?

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 0956-EST
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: Emperor Norton

The Emperor Norton was the Emperor of the United States.  He was
proclaimed Emperor in about 1855, in San Francisco.  He was a real
person, not a figure in some alternate universe.  The San Franciscans
humored him: he got military salutes, free meals, a state funeral for
his dog, and so on.

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1981 0845-PST
From: Joe Kelsey <JOE at WASHINGTON>
Subject: The Venus Belt

Every one who has ever spent much time hanging around tourist traps in
San Francisco knows that Emperor Norton was the self-styled Emperor of
California back in the late 1800s (I think - my memory is not clear on
this point).  Anyway, i do remember that the Ghirardelli Chocolate
Factory had a special Emperor Norton Sundae, along with little
historical tid-bits on his life and times the last time I visited
there (8 years ago...).

/Joe

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 0820-PST
From:  Craig E. Ward <Ward at ISIF>
Subject: Emperor Norton

Late in the 19th century in San Fransico a man down on his luck
decided to proclaim himself Norton I, Emperor of the United States.
He dressed up somewhat and began issuing proclamations and such.
The people of San Fransico thought it was great fun and went along
with him.  Hotels would feed him (and his famous dogs--whose names I
don't remember) without charge.  Emperor Norton had the run of the
city.  After a while, the Emperor took pity on our neighbors south of
the border and made himself the Protector of Mexico.  When he died the
city had a big funeral and erected a statue in his honor.

I don't think it could happen today.  Does this mean things do change?

/Craig

------------------------------

Date:  6 November 1981 03:31 est
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject:  Emperor Norton

Reply to hjjh at UTEXAS-11

Chip should be on his way to LosCon now, so I will try to fill in.

Emperor Norton was a real figure, living in San Francisco in the late
1800's. Slightly insane (or perhaps not, who knows) he claimed to be
the Emperor of the United States. Most of the San Franciscans humored
him and went along with what they saw as an amusing gag. Norton is a
prominent background figure in the Illuminatus books.

I don't know if this is germain to SF-Lovers or not. It's an excellent
example of fantasy in real life, and very interesting reading.  How
much interest is there out there??

                        Paul

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1981 14:49:24 EST (Thursday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: dhalgren

A while back I heard someone (I think Robert Silverberg) mention on
"Hour 25" on KPFK in L.A. that Dhalgren (as in Delaney) was a
mis-spelling of the name of a hero from some set of legends.

I've never been able to find out who the real Dahlgren was.  Does
anyone out there know?

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:  5 Nov 1981 at 1328-PST
From: Andrew Knutsen <knutsen@SRI-UNIX>
Subject: lucid dream machine

        I saw an article or something awhile ago about what might
almost be considered a present day dream machine. What it did (would
do) was detect the REM sleep stage, then apply a gentle electric
current to some random section of the anatomy. The theory was that
this would stimulate the dreamer into lucidity, so he/she could make
up their own dream as they went along. I have had a few of these
dreams, and they can be a lot of fun. I think this was in England or
something.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 1415-EST
From: "Bruce Laru (via Vasak at mit-ai)" <VASAK at DEC-MARLBORO>
Reply-to: Vasak at MIT-AI
Subject: Dream machines and reality


        The only thing 'wrong' with plugging into a dream-machine or
any other form of escape from 'reality' for whatever timeframe,
becomes apparent when the dreamer asks the inevitable question, 'WHY
AM/WAS I HERE?'.

        This answers the question of whether SF should deal with
'real' issues of politics, sociology, sexism or whatever, or provide
only mindless escape.  Real excitement lies in understanding universal
'truths', realizing how we became what we are, and in imagining what
the human race can attain, rather than reading how many aliens someone
else can imagine subduing (or whatever other cliche-ridden 'adventure'
the author can get into print, on the tube, or into the
dream-machine's memory...this kind of SF is just technological
space-western).

        For entertainment, let Philip K. Dick ask me 'what is
reality', or Zelazny regale me with tales of Hindu gods reincarnate
(Lord of Light), or John Carpenter show me how boring and ridiculous
space travel is likely to become as well how asinine 'artificial
intelligence' could be ('Dark Star' the movie). Let someone stimulate
me by showing me anything in a NEW way. Then, for adventure, I'll go
skiing.

                                - Bruce Laru

------------------------------

Date: 5 November 1981 1332-PST (Thursday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: bugs

I believe this was discussed extensively over in HUMAN-NETS.  It
appears that the use of the terms "bug", "bugs", and "buggy" long
predate computers, going all the way back to the early days of
electronics and telephony.  I believe the early British telephone
workers in particular used the term "buggy" for bad lines, many of
which had indeed been attacked by insects.  Then again, "buggy" an a
synonym for crazy probably predates that even farther.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1981 21:52:05-PDT
From: E.jeffc at Berkeley
Subject: The fantasy invasion

     In the middle of this week's TV guide, I saw an advertisement for
the Science Fiction Book Club.  As I looked over the books available,
I realized that half of the books were not SF at all, but were of the
fantasy genre.  Is it my imagination, or are fantasy type books
invading the realm of science fiction?

     This trend is not confined to books alone.  Along with the rash
of "sci-fi" movies that has come along recently, there has also
appeared such movies as Clash of the Titans, Dragonslayer, and
Excalibur. Again, is it my imagination, or is SF and fantasy becoming
one in the eyes of the public?

     At the risk of flaming again, I must say that I find this trend
rather disturbing.  As if the mysticism present in science
fiction/fact, of which I have already flamed about, was not content to
stay in hiding, has decided to come out into the open.  There is
nothing but mysticism in these "fantasy" type books and movies, and
for my defense I quote the director of the movie Excalibur, John
Boorman (New York Times Feb 22):

     "It's about the loss of magic.  When man was in an
unaware state he was more in touch with nature which
includes the forces of magic.  The price you pay for that
unconsiousness is the lack of that harmony....  It all has
to do with Jung, with trying to look back and see where our
impulses and feelings come from."

     Mr. Boorman's previous most famous movie was Deliverance, which
shows a group of civilized men degenerating into killers.

     Nature includes the forces of magic, huh?  The next thing you
know, he'll probably suggest that we worship the sun, the north and
south wind, lightning, and all of those other great Gods that our
ancestors used to live in fear of.  (Oh yeah, we must not forget the
east and west wind as well!)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1981 1741-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Get your money in now for WorldCon '83 while the price
         is still right...

...note that until 31 December, the attending rate is almost as low as
the supporting rate.  If you intend to nominate/vote on the Hugos,
anyway, it makes good sense to go ahead and pay the extra $5 in case
you can make it to Baltimore in '83, whether you're currently planning
on attending or not.

  -- Rich
---

September 1-5, 1983 (Maryland)

   CONSTELLATION. 1983 (41st) World Science Fiction Convention.
   Baltimore Convention Center, Baltimore, MD (main hotel will be the
   Hyatt Regency, but there will only be 500 rooms there - *all* con
   hotels are connected to the Convention Center by covered
   walkways).  Also being referred to (unofficially) as BALTICON and
   Baltimore '83.  GoH: John Brunner; FGoH: Dave Kyle; TM: Jack
   Chalker.  The SF universe's annual get-together, with
   professionals and readers from all over the world in attendance.
   Talks, panels, films, fancy dress competition, the works.  Members
   get to nominate and vote for the Hugo awards and the John W.
   Campbell Award for Best New Writer.  Memb: Thru 31 Dec 81, $15
   attending, $10 supporting; 1 Jan 82 thru 30 Jun 82, $20 attending,
   $10 supporting; Later rates will be announced.  A supporting
   membership allows you to nominate and vote for the Hugos, and gets
   you the progress reports, but does not cover attending the actual
   convention.  Checks should be made payable to the Forty-First
   World Science Fiction Convention.  Info: ConStellation, Box 1046,
   Baltimore, MD  21203.

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/6/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses one of
the final scenes in Robert Heinlein's story "If This Goes On..."
Readers who have not read this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------
Date: 5 Nov 1981 0956-EST
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: "If This Goes On"

Re: If This Goes On.  In the original magazine version of the story,
the idea of conditioning the populace out of their belief in the
dictatorship is precisely the one that's adopted.  Heinlein changed it
in the longer, revised version.  Panshin's "Heinlein in Dimension"
goes into his growth as writer (and thinker) evidenced by the
differences between the two versions.

------------------------------


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #105
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, November 6, 1981 6:22PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #105
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 7 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Title Query Answered & Dhalgren as Hero Query &
      Rewritten (Sharra's Exile) & Series (Advise and Consent),
                 SF Movies - The Foundation Trilogy,
         SF Radio - Odyssey,  Random Topics - Emperor Norton,
  SF Topics - Propaganda in SF & Editing & Nature of Science Fiction
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 01:08:50-PST
From: pur-ee!rick at Berkeley
Subject: Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC's Title,Author Request

The story involving the "Bellers" and the magic horn is one of the
later ones in Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers series.  I can't
remember the exact title, but there were only five books in the
series.  The series was recently reprinted and should be easily
available.

---rick

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 20:42:43-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: Black Bellers


The novel(s) with the "Black Bellers" is/are the "World of Tiers"
series by Phil Farmer,which I coincidentally received yesterday from
the SF Book Club.  I have not yet read them however...

 -Berry Kercheval

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 1981 12:41:16-PST
From: decvax!genradbolton!al at Berkeley
Subject: Plot --> Title, Author (black bellers)

The Black Bellers and the Magic Horn were in Philip Jose Farmer's
World of Tiers quintology.  A member of a super-race of beings (quite
aptly known as gods, since they could create whole universes) is
originally trapped in a parallel universe, namely ours, with a memory
loss which makes it only accidental that he finds his way back into
his own universe.  Once there, after many mis-adventures, his memory
returns but his life on Earth has mellowed his personality and he
becomes a compassionate god.  Having had no such experiences, his
siblings and other members of his race continue to harass him in the
following novels.  The Black Bellers are the only other life-form that
these gods need to fear and they are introduced in the fourth novel, I
think.  As I recall, they kept their enemy's minds in those black
bells and all life-forms are their enemies.

All of it is the purest 'universe-opera' but constitutes entertaining
material for rainy afternoons away from the computer.

                                        al

------------------------------

Date: 06 Nov 1981 1050-PST
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Foundation Trilogy: The Movie

Excerpted from Ampersand Magazine -

Michael Phillips, who co-produced "Taxi Driver", "The Sting", "Close
Encounters of the Third Kind" (and "Cannery Row", due in February),
recently announced that he'll next produce (with his wife Liv Faret
and Marie Yates) all three novels of Isaac Asimoc's "Foundation
Trilogy".  Not only that, but the the three novels will be filmed at
the same time and released one month apart.

rich

------------------------------

Date:  6 Nov 1981 (Friday) 1626-EDT
From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (William Sharer)
Subject: Foundation Trilogy to be filmed

         I was just reading Ampersand and noticed a blurb in 'Out the
Other' that Michael Philips will produce Asimov's Foundation Trilogy.
Of all the SF works I thought no one would ever make a movie out of,
this one is at the top of the list.  Movies are too short nowadays to
do justice to a series or to even long novels.  Does anybody agree
with this?

mr bill

PS: Philips is credited with Taxi Driver, The Sting, CE3.  It looks
like FT will be three movies released one month apart of each
other...ambitious isn't he?

------------------------------

Date: 6-NOV-1981 13:47
From: MERLIN::WAJENBERG
Reply-to: "KIRK::SF_LOVERS c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Odyssey

Radio station WCRB, 102.5 FM, is airing Homer's Odyssey on Thursday
nights, 10:30 to 11:30 (the last 15 minutes are commentary). Episode 4
is next Thursday; Odysseus begins telling the Phaeacian court about
his adventures between the sack of Troy and his escape from Calypso.
It is very well-done and true to the original.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Nov 1981 1237-EST
From: G.PALEVICH at MIT-EECS
Subject: Dhalgren


        I always thought that Dhalgren was Grendal with the sylables
switched.  (I don't know what this "means" though.)

                        Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 10:59:23-PST
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: re: Emperor Norton

Emperor Norton is 100% real-world. His name is well-known to anyone
who has spent any great length of time in the immediate vicinity of
San Francisco.
     Around the end of the Gold Rush, a man named Norton decided that
he was sick and tired of living as a derelict (his occupation up to
that point) and proclaimed himself Emperor of San Francisco.  This
belief was not based on any desire to actually rule the area, but only
because he was a bit "tetched" (as such states of mind were known at
the time). Since in this state he was basically harmless, and lent
color to the city besides, the local citizens and merchants confirmed
his position as Emperor, giving him "tribute" (which Norton, viewing
himself as benevolent, passed on to his loyal "subjects (more
derelicts, usually)), a fancy uniform, and a city proclamation.  This
kept Emperor Norton happy until he died may years later, beloved by
the entire population. He was given a state funeral of sorts and
buried wherever they were burying mayors and such at the time. He was
essentially San Francisco's first true "street person" (as opposed to
beggar or bum).
     The above is the result of 2+ years of living in close proximity
(Berkeley) to San Francisco. People with a longer heritage in the area
may be able to contribute more details, such as exactly where he is
buried (I am fairly certain it is in or near a San Francisco landmark)
or exactly when his reign as Emperor occurred.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1981 1055-EST
From: DYER-BENNET
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL responses

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #94 )

(Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A) Several of my Christian friends are
extremely fond of C.S. Lewis (particular examples that come to mind
are an extremely devout Catholic (not convert) and a convert to
Christianity who does not participate in organized religious
activities).  They are most fond, however, not of the fiction but of
his various essays on christianity.

For that matter, I'm fond of the space trilogy (especially the third
book, That Hideous Strength), despite the fact that I'm an atheist
struggling hard to remind myself that I don't know for sure and should
really be an agnostic.

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #95 )

(MARIAH::GARDNER) Sharra's Exile claims to be a rewrite of Sword of
Aldones, not Heritage of Hastur (which is one of the better of the
series, and perhaps the first one that was up to the level of quality
I have now come to expect from Marion Zimmer Bradley).

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #99 )

(Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>) I have also been noticing a
disgusting error rate in recent paperbacks.  Camber the Heretic is at
least as bad as Sharra's Exile, and the reissues of Chandler's
Commodore Grimes books have the same problem -- I wonder of those were
reset, or if I'm seeing original typos there?

------------------------------

Date: 6-NOV-1981 19:49
From: COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: A Series with a double ending

In relation to series and to science fiction of the alternate-world
variety (and brought on by somebody's reference to Fletcher Knebel's
political books), there was a series of political novels by Allan
Drury beginning with Advise and Consent (written in the fifties, but
featuring a frighteningly Nixonish president) and finishing with not
one, but two novels.  These two novels explored the different time
lines arising from different outcomes to an assasination attempt:  in
Come Ninevah, Come Tyre the president and the vice-president's wife
are killed; in The Promise of Joy, the president's wife and the
vice-president are killed.  The titles tip off the tone of events, but
Drury managed a very interesting and totally believable study on the
differences brought about by a single twist of fate.  I really don't
remember if I considered the series to get better, worse, or just GO
ON, but the end(s) of it were fascinating.

Regards,
Susan

P.S.  Just had an odd thought which is guaranteed to wake me up some
night:  What is the singular for "series"?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1981 09:25:55-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: The Nature of Science Fiction
Our corporate subscription to "Current Contents" started up recently,
and a few days ago we got a pile of back issues.  Apparently they work
on a Fiscal year basis, and if you subscribe after june 1 they send
you back issues.  Moving right along, in the ISI Press Digest for the
August 17 edition, there was an interesting excerpt I would like to
pass along to the SF-LOVERS for comment and discussion.  (The views
expressed in the article do not represent my own.)
        -Berry Kercheval

Patrick Brantlinger in "Novel: Forum on Fiction" 14(1):30-43, Fall 80

        ..."The central message of the Gothic romance form, involving
        the assertion of the irrational over the rational, is also the
        message of most science fiction.  `The Time Macine', `1984',
        `Perelandra' and `Dune' all continue the romantic reaction
        against the secularization and rationalization of life that
        began in earnest with the democratic and industrial
        revolutions of the late 18th century.  Science fiction is thus
        really anti-science fiction, a form of apocalyptic fantasy
        verging on religious myth."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #106
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 7, 1981 3:26PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #106
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra     Sun, 8 Nov 1981        Volume 4 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:
             Children's Cartoons - Rocky and Bullwinkle &
      Tennessee Tuxedo & The Alvin Show & Jay Ward Productions &
   Space Ranger & Tom Corbett & Captain Midnight & Captain Video &
Rocketman & Space Patrol & Space Angel & Ruff 'n' Reddy & Diver Dan &
          Sinbad the Sailor & Captain Tug & Meaning of FAB &
                  International Animation Festival,
       Children's Books - Tom Corbett & The Universe Between &
                  Here's the Plot...What's the Title
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1981 11:22:26-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest Extra   V4 #100

Two small corrections to the Bullwinkle trivia list:  (a) The narrator
is William (The Lone Ranger, Cannon, and more recently and sadly Nero
Wolfe) Conrad, not Joseph.  You get no Badge of Courage for that one!
The narrator of fractured fairly tales etc. was the late Edward
Everett Horton, not Charlie Ruggles.

------------------------------

Date: 2 November 1981 1659-PST (Monday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Egads!  The animation discussion returns!

It's kinda strange seeing such old messages suddenly reappear after
months of suspended animation spinning on a platter somewhere.

Well, let's try clean up a few loose ends:

---

Clyde Crashcup (and his whispering assistant, Leonardo) were NOT part
of the Tennessee Tuxedo program!  They were part of THE ALVIN SHOW!
Somewhere around here I even have an Alvin Show LP, complete with a
whole Clyde Crashcup segment.  That's "Crash" for CRASH and "Cup" for
CUP, CRASHCUP.  Clyde was always inventing things that had already
been invented, and always screwed it up somehow.  In one segment, he
invented SOAP.  ("What is it for?  Soap is for EATING!")  He had a
marvelous pencil -- he simply drew his inventions on the wall and they
would then appear in reality.

---

As many people know, I am a hard-core J. Ward fan.  NOTHING that he
made was ever "bad", including Captain Crunch breakfast food
commercials!  Here in L.A., one of the local pay-tv services is
running "Fractured Flickers" as a short between movies!  It turns out
that "The Bullwinkle Show" is currently running at 4:30AM PST on WGN
(9) Chicago.  This is one of the so-called "superstitions" on the
primary cable-tv satellite (SATCOM II) so you might be able to
browbeat your local CATV (cable) system into carrying them.  On my
system here (Jack Barry Cable TV, no less -- yes, the same guy who
hosts "The Joker's Wild"), we have WTBS Atlanta, WOR, New York, and
WGN Chicago.  Not too bad, considering all the stuff we have locally
here in L.A.

By the way, I have a videotape here of an interview done with Bill
Scott and June Foray where you see them do some of the voices.  Really
mind-boggling.  Visitors to L.A. *must* stop off at the "Dudley
Do-right Emporium" on the Sunset Strip.  This is a little store
attached to the old J. Ward animation studios, and sells nothing but
J. Ward related goods:  T-shirts, audio tapes of themes, scripts, etc.
etc.  The proprietor is J. Ward's wife!

Here is a brief listing of a few of the R&B episodes that come
immediately to mind:

1) Boris and N. start a cereal boxtop counterfeiting ring, and almost
   plunge the U.S. economy into total collapse.

2) R&B search for the Mooseberry bush -- needed by the U.S. government
   as a rocket fuel additive.

3) Bullwinkle inherits a mansion in England by virtue of having
   "Rue Brittania" written on the bottom of one of his feet.

4) The Kirwood Dirby -- is a hat that makes the person who wears
   it very smart (or was it stupid?  I've screwed up on this one
   before.  Please be merciful with me on this one.)

5) Hushaboom -- a silent explosive.  B&N want it of course.

6) Upsidasium -- the metal that falls UP.  R&B search for the mountain
   made of this valuable substance (few people ever noticed it, because
   it floated up in the air!)

7) The weather forecasting bunion.  It's Bullwinkle's and gets him into
   all sorts of problems.

8) The Metal Munching Moon Mice.  Giant metal mice are eating all the
   TV antennas in the U.S.  The country is at a standstill since
   nobody knows what to do with their time w/o television.

There were others as well...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 81 14:08:47-EST (Fri)
From: Prutledg.Darcom-Hq at UDel
Subject: Old TV Sci-Fi

I recently read the SF-LOVERS Digest articles on the old cartoon shows
such  as  Tom Terrific, Bullwinkle, etc.  Does anyone remember some of
the sci-fi TV shows that aired in the  mid-fifties  such  as  "  Rocky
Jones  --  Space Ranger," "Tom Corbett and the Space Cadets," "Captain
Midnight,"  "  Captain  Video,"  and  even  the  Republic  serials  of
"Rocketman"?   Remember  Captain  Video`s  robot  named  TOBOR  (robot
spelled backwards), in whose chest was a TV  monitor  on  which  Flash
Gordon  serials  were shown?  How about Captain Video`s secret decoder
ring that used to  turn  your  finger  green  (it  contained  copper)?
Captain  Midnight  used  to  travel  in  his  streamlined jet with two
companions -- Ichabod Crane (Icky) and a professor.  He was  sponsored
by  Ovaltine  who  once offered a free Captain Midnight patch for your
jacket (I had  one).   Remember  the  way  Rocky  Jones  rendered  his
rocketship  invisible  through  the use of "cold light" (shades of the
Klingon "cloaking device")?  I viewed these on New York City based  TV
stations  and  don`t  know  how  wide-spread  they were televised.  If
anyone remembers any trivia about these shows, let`s start a dialogue.
Those were surely the "good old days of TV sci-fi."

                                           Pete Rutledge

P.S.  I was only five to seven years old when  I  saw  most  of  these
shows  and  it`s hard to remember much about them but they really made
an impression on me as a  child.   I`ve  never  lost  my  interest  in
rocketry, astronomy, and sci-fi.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 1981 13:19:36-PDT
From: decvax!duke!ndd at Berkeley

        I remember reading two Tom Corbett books, one about his first
mission after cadet school (he crashed on Mars), and another one that
had something to do with an asteroid (?) of thorium or some other
radioactive material.  It seems to me that the author's name was
Anson; I'm sure that the books were shelved with the A's.  Does anyone
else remember these books, the author's name (or pseudonym) and
whether there were any others?

                                        Ned Danieley

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 1981 10:55:55-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)

  Doesn't anybody else remember the animated weekday morning serial
"Space Patrol"?  It was on some hour-long cartoon collection and
alternated with other serials, including at least one fantasy ("The
Firebird"); animation is expensive enough that I'm sure this wasn't
local to DC.

------------------------------

Date: 8 June 1981 10:56 edt
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Scott McCloud, Space Angel

So who remembers this one?  I saw this one no later than 1967, in
California.  The show had, as I recall, fairly 'realistic' style of
drawing, but I can't remember the amount of motion.  I remember
vaguely one episode, where a small fleet of ships were flying very
near a star, and used some kind of ray to cool each other off.  I
think there was also a bearded professor.  In another show they were
going to test an ion drive. thought capable of propelling one faster
than light.  Says one "What happens if you go faster than light?"
Says the Prof, "I don't know, perhaps you turn into light."

Anyone else remember this?

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 1981 11:12:28-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: yet more nostalgia

  Getting into the truly ridiculous, does anyone remember the Ruff 'n'
Reddy serial in which they are seized by the inhabitants of Muni-Mula
and multiplicated?  For a while, a lot of the cartoon shows had SF
sprinkled through them (rather like the \\very// random episode in the
middle if MONTY PYTHON'S LIFE OF BRIAN).  RnR was never a particularly
good show (very cheap Hanna-Barbera animation) but that episode was
fun.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 1981 17:41:31-PDT
From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley
Subject: another obscure TV show:

        Below in the deep there's adventure and danger,
        That's where you'll find Diver Dan,
        The sights that he sees are surprising and stranger
        than any you'll see on the land.

Can anyone supply the chorus, plots, or any other characters besides
Barry Barracuda and Minerva the Mermaid?

David Ungar

P.S.  Nice to be right about something (Natasha's last name) for a
change.

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 1981 0001-EDT
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: More Old Cartoons

While we're all on the subject, does anybody remember "Sinbad the
Sailor"?  ... The one with the magic belt, that when he pulled on the
free end it enabled his strength and off he would go swinging through
the rigging to land feet first on top of all the evil pirates.....

_H*

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1981 11:01:32-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: more cartoons. . . .

  I too remember an SF cartoon serial on Capt. Tug in DC (although I
assume the cartoon appeared on equivalent shows in many other cities,
since even such limited animation would have been impossible to do
just for such a cheap show (CT itself was entertaining:  one set about
the size of a newscaster's desk, one camera (or \\maybe// two), one
character and an offstage voice (his engineer) that was probably a
stagehand, and somehow they got mixed up with a collection of spies
(more offstage voices) whose transmissions were picked up with some of
the most incredibly cheap-looking gear (a feather spinning around on
top of a #10 can!). . .).  I can't remember the title at all, but I
remember the all-too-typical cast:  heroic captain, hulking engineer,
pretty female with no talents that I can recall being mentioned.  I
remember the gladiator story (which ran at least 10 segments), though
there must have been others.  This would have been in 1962-63.

------------------------------

Date: 26-JUN-1981 13:35
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: ZAPHOD::PORTER
Subject: the meaning of fab

some information on "FAB" in response to GEOFF@SRI-CSL ..  "FAB" as
used in thunderbirds, i.e. pronounced as three letters rather than one
word, is an invention of the authors of thunderbirds.  gerry anderson
could probably come up with an explanation of what the three letters
are supposed to stand for, but i can't remember.  the real explanation
is apparent from thunderbirds' date of birth:  in the swinging
sixties, us english used to wander around describing things as "fab"
or "gear" (translation: groovy, hip).

for the uninitiated: gerry anderson was the creator/writer/designer of
thunderbirds, along with his wife sylvia anderson

dave porter

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1981 1831-EDT
Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
From: PAUL DICKSON at ZIP
Subject: FAB

How soon we forget.  "Fab" is a British slang word from the time of
the Beatles.  Ringo used it a lot.  The Beatles were sometimes
referred to as "the fab four".  It simply means "fabulous".

If the Thunderbirds movie dates from the same period (middle '60s),
that would confirm it, as no one used the word before or since.  Most
such words (like "23-skiddoo") have a very short lifetime.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 1981 09:32 PDT
From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF-lovers; Animation show

        I remember several of those International Animation Festival
stories, one of my favorites was "Mr. Rossi Get a Car".  The shorts
like "Maxi Cat" were great as I remember, "Maxi Cat" was a German T.V.
filler (about 30 seconds or so).
        And of course, "Closed on Mondays". . .

                                                \TMP. . .

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 1981 10:24:35-EDT
From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: title inquiry

  The "cubical hole in space, etc." is Nourse's THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN
(how could I forget it?  One of the first pieces of SF I wrote was a
sequel to this!).  The hole led not to a parallel universe (at least,
not initially) but to a higher-dimensional universe in which geometry
was sufficiently weird that a short distance could correspond to a
long distance in the [lower] universe.  Unfortunately, the weirdness
of the geometry means that most people go insane when confronted with
the new universe; the person who ultimately learns to cope with it is
very fannish in many respects.  I won't spoil the story by describing
the outrageous ending, and I'd encourage anyone who hasn't read it to
do so even if heesh has to invade the juvenile section of the library.

[ This was in response to an earlier title query.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 1981 1323-PDT (Monday)
From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban)
Subject: Juvenilia

   Long ago, I seem to recall reading a juvenile called something like
"The First Boy on the Moon", in which a kid and his friend (nicknamed
"Mud"?) stow away on a moon shot.  My main memory is that it contained
some quite lucid, and quite accurate, explanations about such useful
concepts as escape velocity and re-entry, and a good explanation of
the "zero-gee" effect of free-fall orbiting.  As a matter of fact,
just about my entire memory of this book is its excellent analogies
for explaining these things (skipping a stone off water and how that's
similar to re-entering Earth's atmosphere, etc).  This was in the
early 1960's.  Can anyone remember this book, and who might have
written it?

        Mike
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #107
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1981 1:07AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #107
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No Missing Digest,
     SF Books - The Empire of the East & Dhalgren as Hero Query &
           Heinlein's New Book,  SF Movies - Time Bandits,
     SF Lovers - Digest Extras,  Random Topics - Film Insurance &
         Singular of Series & Emperor Norton & The Mind's I,
            SF Topics - Utopias & Editing & Purpose of SF,
                    Spoiler - Number of the Beast
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3:35am  Tuesday, 10 November 1981
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: No Missing Digest

This digest, Tuesday, issue 107, follows immediately after the Sunday
digest, which was a Special Extra digest, issue 106.  The last regular
digest was Saturday's issue 105.

------------------------------

Date: 9 November 1981 14:13 est
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Book Review: The Empire of the East

 The Empire of the East
 Fred Saberhagen
 Ace Paperback $2.95 555 pages

micro-review: amusing fantasy/adventure with no deep meaning.  Good
for several nights of reading.

This work is one of those post-atomic-war magic v.s. science stories.
The story is that of the revolt of the West against the East.  The
lines of Good and Evil are clearly drawn here:  The East is a vicious
tyranny that rules with the aid of powerful demons.  The west fights
with the aid of elementals and its own magic, and the aid of the
mysterious Ardneh.

Isolated remains of pre-war, technological, weapons abound.  The West
discovers a nuclear attack tank, and use it in assault on a fortress.
And Ardneh struggles to return science to the place of power that
magic now holds.  Of course the West wins in the end, but in a
somewhat surprising way.

I never knew that Saberhagen could write anything besides Berserker
novels.  The book is fun, but not much more than that.  Don't expect
really sharp characterization, or deep meaning, or anything like that.
Enjoy it anyway.


------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 1981 21:30:23-PST
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: Dhalgren

I'd heard that 'Dhalgren' was a permutation of 'Grendel', the monster
in Beowulf...

                                        James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1981 04:43 PST
From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Grendal

Grendal (if memory serves correctly) was an opponent (monster?) of the
epic hero Beowulf.  and speaking of Beowulf, I always thought it was a
neat name (as in Beowulf Shaeffer in Niven's Neutron Star) but my
spouse disagrees so I guess none of our children will be named
Beowulf.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 0949-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Heinlein

According to the most recent issue of Analog, Bob Heinlein is just
finishing the first draft of a new book, presumably to be released
sometime soon.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1981 02:42:45-EST
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Time Bandits

Saw the opening of Time Bandits, the new film involving some Monty
Python people tonight.

Go See It!

It was not at all what I expected, but it's great.

In part, it is escapist adventure like RotLA, not as polished in some
ways, better in others.  It was written by Michael Palin and Terry
Gilliam, and has a short John Cleese role as Robin Hood, so it has
some python humour to add to it, but it's not at all like Holy Grail
or Life of Brian.

In general (not a spoiler since you find this all out in the first 10
minutes) the fabric of space-time is not quite right, and has some
holes in it.  One of them is in a small English boy's bedroom.  He is
taken off on an adventure by a group of midgets who have a map of the
holes of space time they stole from the supreme being.  (They used to
work for him)

>From that point, the fun pursues!

-Brad

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 81 19:50:22-EDT (Sat)
From: Earl Weaver (VLD) <earl.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Cartoons? (again???)

Suggest someone start another digest.  Call it DREGS-LOVERS digest.
Then have all the other digests funnel non-issues to DREGS-LOVERS.  Of
course, the popularity of DREGS-LOVERS will soar over ALL the other
digests.  Indeed, it may even drown out the arpanet!

\\*// \and/ \all/ *that* [jazz]

{good grief! I am afflicted...}

[ All messages relating to Children's Cartoons or Children's books
  only appear in SF LOVERS DIGEST EXTRAs.  None appear in the regular
  digests.  The EXTRA feature enables people who do not wish to read
  this material to easily skip it.  Overall, an active attempt is
  made to discourage the use of the digests for general level
  discussions.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1981 1609-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: FILM INSURANCE


THE SHOW MUST GO ON (Family Weekly, Nov. 8, 1981)
        In today's films the true stars may be insurance agents.
   Everything is covered, even the snakes in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
   ($200 each; $1,000 for the cobras).
        For example, Fireman's Fund, which insures 70 percent of
   movies and TV, covered against unexpected delays in the filming of
   RAGGING BULL in case Robert De Niro got sick after gaining 50
   pounds to portray boxer Jake La Motta.
        Fireman's won that round, but recently had to pay off for
   shooting delays due to death (roles played by Peter Sellers and
   Fred Prinze); injury (to TV's Robert Wagner and James Garner) and
   robbery (a reel of BLOW OUT was swiped, and an entire Mummers
   parade had to be reshot).
        And then there was that insurance nightmare, APOCALYPSE NOW,
   shot in the Philippines.  Normal typhoon season there begins June 1,
   so Fireman's restricted its policy against damages from storms
   after that date.  But on May 27, a massive typhoon struck, and the
   company had to fork over $1.5 million.

------------------------------

Date:  6 Nov 1981 2225-PST
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: A single series is still a series...

The "singular" of the word "series" IS "series," since the word is
used to refer to a set of something.  The word "series" is its own
plural because words ending in "s" don't have any more "s"'s added
onto them (Like any rule, this one DOES have exceptions; this isn't
one of them.).

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1981 18:48:28-PST
From: Onyx.jmrubin at Berkeley
Subject: The Emperor Norton

        While the previous summary by CSVAX.wildbill@berkeley of the
reign of Norton ("Emperor of the United States and Protector of
Mexico") was essentially correct, it should be noted that Joshua
Norton was not a derelict until he went bust as a result of trying to
corner the local market in cotton.  Also, he had a mongrel dog which
also received such things as free meals in restaurants and good opera
tickets.

                                        Joel Rubin

------------------------------

Date:  6 November 1981 2252-EST (Friday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject:  Utopias

My housemate has recently gotten interested in Utopian literature, and
asked me to peruse my collection for some Utopian themes.  She was
primarily interested in seeing some well-written pro-technology
Utopias, as viewed by an "outsider" (time traveler, alien,
human-visiting-alien-planet, human-visiting-other-human-planet).  The
outsider aspect is not crucial, but the pro-technology aspect is.  I
wasn't able to locate many.  Some are quite marginal.  For example, I
(generously) included de Camp's "Lest Darkness Fall", Kornbluth's "The
Marching Morons", Jakes' "On Wheels", Sturgeon's "Venus Plus X".  Plus
a great deal of Mack Reynolds, although one can't always construe his
societies as pro-technology, the implications of technology are very
strongly brought out and at least for a large part of the society he
portrays the members see themselves as being in a Utopia.

Contributions to this are welcome.  One story I would like to locate
is the one where the soldier lands on a pastoral planet and attempts
to keep his "identity" (eating in private, wearing a perfectly neat
uniform, etc.)  in the presence of some very laid-back inhabitants.
Technology made them essentially unconquerable, as I recall.  Alas, I
find that I will have to do linear search thru about 500 anthologies
unless someone out there can recall either the author, the collection,
or some other way of narrowing the search.

(I pointed out to her that a lot of the pro-technology "Utopian" views
are simply implicit in the nature of the stories and settings, and the
distopian views so prevalent are fundamentally reactions to this
"goody-goody-technology" attitude which is implicit is so much
SF...hence the ease with which one can generate distopias.  She is
interested in pure-technology, or political enhanced by technology, or
economic/social as supported by technology stories.  While typing
this, for example, I just realized the Solarian society portrayed by
Asimov in "The Naked Sun" is a good example...the Solarians see
themselves as living in a Utopia, but Lije Baley as the outsider
provides a different insight.)

Much thanks
                                joe

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 1981 21:16:50-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Subject: typos

I've noticed that most of the topographical errors I see are
transformations of one word into another, or transpositions of
sentences; I rarely see nonsense words.  That suggests a computerized
spelling checker; does anyone know if this is really done by any
publishers?

                --Steve

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 1981 21:18:18-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #105 -- "Current Contents" on SF

My take is that the author of that comment hasn't read very much
"real" SF.  Of the 4 books cited ("The Time Machine", "1984",
"Perelandra", and "Dune"), only "Dune" is really mainstream SF to most
readers.  While an awful lot of SF has flat-out wrong science (my
favorite example is an Alan Dean Foster story that explained that a
space ship worked by having a very massive object at the end of a pole
from the main body of the ship, and that the gravitational force of
this object pulled the body of the ship towards it, which propelled
the whole thing....), very little of it is mystical -- a far more
common failing is the SF novel that's really just an adventure story
with blasters instead of six-shooters.  Not that there aren't some
excellent mystical SF stories -- "Childhood's End" and "The Gold at
Starbow's End" come to mind -- but I don't consider them typical.

------------------------------

Date: 10 November 1981 0214-EST (Tuesday)
From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60)
Subject:  The Mind's I - Hofstadter & Dennett - mini review

"The Mind's I" by Douglas Hofstadter and Daniel Dennett is an
extremely well chosen collection of essays by various authors, some
classics, most hot off the word processor, on the subjects of
consciousness, mind, intelligence (wet and dry), God, reality, the
universe (it gives several examples), the whole cemented by commentary
by the book's two "composers".  I half expected this to be a paste job
exploiting the success of their recent individually authored books,
(GEB and Brainstorms), but that expectation was wildly wrong.  This is
the best exposition, at least in one place, of the world view made
possible (and essential) by computers and the realization that they
were evolving to intelligence.  In my humble opinion this
Weltanschauung is the most nearly correct one available to humans
today, and should be of interest to everyone.  People who work with
computers need to at least understand this viewpoint, lest they be
very future shocked later in their careers.  For AI people, this is
bread and butter (though some people don't seem to watch what they're
eating).  In addition to the extreme importance of the contents of
this book, it is extremely readable (much more so than GEB).  I
enjoyed it more than any book I've read in years (though perhaps my
reactions were influenced by my insane jealousy at not being twenty
times smarter so that I could have written all of it myself.)  Basic
Books - $15.50

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/10/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses Robert
Heinlein's novel "The Number of the Beast."  Readers who have not read
this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1981 0949-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Heinlein

For those of you (myself included) who read Number of the Beast, but
didn't really figure out who the Beast was or what happened to him,
the same issue of Analog (Spider Robinson's review column) claims the
following:  All of the names used by the Beast(s) are anagrams of
Heinlein's name or one of his pen names.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #108
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1981 4:17AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #108
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Nov 1981    Volume 4 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:
              FTP - Science Fiction Convention Calendar,
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
          Utopia Query Answered,  SF Movies - Time Bandits,
           SF Fandom - Dr. Who,  Random Topics - Ampersand,
   SF Topics - Physics Today (Spacedrives) & Borrowing Characters &
             Utopias,  Digest Correction - Spelling Error
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11-Nov-81 00:00:00
From: The Moderator <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: FTP - Science Fiction Convention Calendar

The latest version of the Science Fiction Convention Calendar is now
available for FTP'ing.  Everyone interested in reading this material
should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for
them.  If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and
we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will also be
available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Rich
Zellich for providing this material, and to Alyson L. Abramowitz,
Roger Duffey Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman, Don Woods,
and Paul Young for providing space for the materials on their systems.


   Site                 Filename

MIT-AI                  AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CONS
CMUA                    TEMP:CONS.TXT[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC (text)        [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Con-Cal
PARC-MAXC (press)       [Ibis]<Weissman>SFL>Con-Cal.press
SU-AI                   CONS.SFL[T,DON]
MIT-Multics             >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>conventions.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11          KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]CONS.TXT
DEC TOPS-20             KL2137::FTN20:<SF>CONS.TXT


[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 16:28:03 EST (Monday)
From: Edward D. Hunter <edh at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Two story queries

Here are two story queries, the first on should be easy.

1) This story takes place on a planet something like Jupiter where the
humans live in pressure domes.  There is, however, one form of life on
the planet which can survive outside the dome and the humans have a
process which will convert a human to this animal.  However, whenever
the scouts are converted to this animal they leave the base and never
return.  The base commander is trying to figure out why this is
happening and so finally he and his dog are converted and released.
Once outside they discover a paradise and realize why none of the
scouts ever come back.  That should be enough for that one.

[ This is actually a short story by Clifford D. Simak that was later
absorbed into his work CITY.  -- Jim ]

The second one is more obscure.

2) The narrator of this story claims that the only way to tell the
story is by telling the ending first followed by the middle and at
last the begining.  I believe the story starts out with a murder of
some sort and as the various parts are revealed you discover that the
murderer has actually traveled back in time to try to right some wrong
(I think).

-edh

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 1613-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Re: Utopia story - here it is

The story you [Joe.Newcomer] asked about is "The Skills of Xanadu" by
Theodore Sturgeon.  I just read it in 13 Great Stories of Science
Fiction, edited by Groff Conklin.  This was first out back in 1960,
and recently reprinted in paperback by Fawcett/Gold Medal.  I suspect
this particular story is in other anthologies, I just happened to buy
and read this one a few days ago.  I was glad to see it - it's one of
my old favorites (although I found it didn't wear that well over the
years...sigh).

Enjoy, Rich

------------------------------

Date: 10 November 1981 2002-EST
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: Time Bandits

I liked it.  I was led to believe that it was a Monty Python type
movie, which it was not exactly.  Some quite funny parts and an odd
ending.  Not too much S in the SF.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 22:30:09-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Subject: Dr. Who fan club

According to a local paper, there's now a Dr. Who Fan Club in the area
(I have no idea whether it's national or what).  Contact

        Kathryn Keeter
        Whom
        P.O. Box 808
        Wake Forest, NC  27587

One other note:  there's a new Dr. Who, Peter Davidson, in England
right now, but those episodes haven't made it here yet.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 1981 1951-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE
ZSubject: AMPERSAND (What is it?)

The last edition of SF-Lovers mentioned AMPERSAND.  What and where is
it?  If it is a magazine, is there an address?  --Thanks, Bill

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 (Tuesday) 1623-EDT
From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (William Sharer)
Subject: Ampersand Magazine

        This magazine is distributed to colleges throughout the nation
(about 25 right now i think).  I'm not sure what the circulation is.
Here at the University of Pennsylvania we get it once a month with our
regular newspaper.  The format is very oriented to the latest in
student trends.  It has personality stories, popular interest items,
book, album and concert reviews etc.  It is a copy of the Rolling
Stone Magazine format.

mr bill

[ According to the magazine, it is distributed free at 71 college
  campuses, to over 860,000 students.  The address is Alan Weston
  Publishing, 1680 N. Vine, Suite 900, Hollywood, Ca. 90028.
  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 November 1981, 18:03-EST
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at MIT-MC>
Subject: Bad Science, or the Alan Dean Foster spacedrive

Gee, and just think: Why not make the heavy mass be the SHIP?
Presumably then you can use a REALLY tiny mass on the other end, and
it will fall faster?

------------------------------

Date: 09-Nov-1981
From: SIMON BATE AT GALAXY
Reply-to: "SIMON BATE AT GALAXY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Authors as Characters

I hardly ever have time to respond to comments in SFL, but I noticed
one this morning that I can't pass up...

In V4.  #99, CHIPS::REDFORD noted that Larry Niven and David Gerrold
used some SF author's names as names of gods in Flying Sorcerers.  I
missed that one; however, I did notice that the enslaved wives of some
natives were all given the first names of female SF writers.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 15:25:14 EST (Tuesday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Utopian Novels

I've just finished The Probability Broach by L. Neil Smith.  I'd seen
this in the library for a long time, but had been rather turned off by
the blurbs.  The recent discussion of Smith's books, however, inspired
me to read TPB anyway.  I'm glad I did, but I didn't like it.

This is a book about a libertarian (or propertarian) utopia on a
parallel Earth where George Washington was assassinated when he tried
to tax Whiskey.  [no spoiler: most of this is in the blurb].  It
begins in the near future on our Earth, in a very nasty Denver (the
neatly folded skin scene...) and the hero through a sequence of
accidents finds himself on this other world.  Complications ensue.
But the major thrust of the novel is contained in long discussions of
the relative merits of the libertarian and "big-state" systems.  About
a third of the way through I looked at the bio of Smith -- surprise,
surprise! he's a libertarian!  Very heavy handed with the politics,
which I disagree with, though some of the problems that libertarians
object to are definitely BIG ones.  The answer is not to dissolve the
state and have everybody tote a gun for self-protection.  Smith's
alternate history is not completely unimaginable, though I have great
doubts about its likelihood.  My main complaint is that I think that
Smith would claim that libertarianism is still a viable solution for
our current society; people today are too ingrained with a thirst for
power for this to be true.  Also, even if we could have his world, I,
for one, don't think I'd be very comfortable in it.

But I digress.  The above discussion is inappropriate for SF-LOVERS,
and there is one raging in POLI-SCI already, so enough of that.

What about the story?  Not badly written -- sort of run of the mill
writing.  Fairly straight adventure novel stuff.  The science part of
SF?  Bad.  One of the crucial properties of the Broach, in terms of
plot, is pure hogwash.  But no spoiler, so I'll leave you to read.

                                -ben-

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 1416-PST
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: pro-technology utopias
        Two recent protechnology utopias are the recently-discussed
\Probability Broach/ and \Venus Belt./ In both, the hero is someone
transported across a "hole" between parallel universes: one, a
near-term projection of our own; the other, a libertarian utopia.
Libertarians being what they are, that utopia is also a strong
pro-technology utopia.  It has many of the flaws and virtues of the
more classic utopias.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 Nov 1981 14:16-PST
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Joe Newcomer's request for Utopian novels

A Utopian novel that doesn't quite work is James Cooke Brown's "The
Troika Incident."  He explores what the world will be like after
generations of using PANLAN, an undisguised clone of LOGLAN, which
Brown invented to test Whorf's hypothesis that the structure of one's
language circumscribes the things one can think about.  LOGLAN looks a
little like predicate calculus, and the hope is that if one can learn
to use it he will learn to think more logically.  Anyway, the PANLAN
culture of course has it all together because of its greater ability
to think efficiently and logically.

As an aside, Delany's "Babel-17" and Vance's "The Languages of Pao"
are much more entertaining explorations of Whorf's hypothesis.

B.F. Skinner's "Walden Two" is another such ponderous effort at
delineating sufficient features of a perfect culture.  I seem to
remember that several communities were formed on these principles.

The story you wanted the title and author of (soldier arrives on
planet of laid-back settlers) was in Astounding in the 1950's, but I
don't recall the title or author.  I remember that the unit of
currency was "obs" (obligations), which are incurred when you do
something for someone else.  An amusing scene in the story dealt with
the settlers figuring out that the soldier was wearing a uniform ...
it's hard to tell it's a uniform when there's only one person wearing
it.  Hope this helps you find it...

        Jim Gillogly

[ The particular story you refer to was, I believe, entitled
  "And Then There Were None."  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 19:07:52-PST
From: chico!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley (Steven M. Bellovin)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #107 -- "topographical" errors

In my last submission, I inadvertently referred to "topographical"
errors as transformations of one word into another.  Obviously, that
should have read "typographical" errors (it's strange loop time,
folks); topographical errors are transformations of one world into
another.


                --Steve

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #109
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 12, 1981 3:18AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #109
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 12 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
                    SF Fandom - Party at WindyCon,
     SF Books - Utopia Query Answered,  SF Movies - Time Bandits,
          SF Topics - Intelligence,  Spoiler - Time Bandits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11/11/81 11:09:34
From: DP@MIT-ML
Subject: Party at windycon...

  I will be at windycon, an am willing to offer my room up for a sfl
party. anyone else going to be there, help, etc..? If interested
please reply directly to me...
                                        jeff
                                        <dp@mit-ml>

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1981 10:40:05-PST
From: decvax!duke!ndd at Berkeley
Subject: re: utopia query

        The story that Joe.Newcomer (CMU-10A) referred to in digest
#107 is 'The Skills of Xanadu' by Theodore Sturgeon. An excellent
short story.

                                Ned Danieley

------------------------------

Date: 11/11/81 14:43:53
From: MOON@MIT-MC
Subject: And Then There Were None

That's the correct title.  The author is Eric Frank Russell and one
place it was published in book form was the collection, The Great
Explosion.

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1981 00:07-EST
From: Daniel Breslau <BRESLA at MIT-AI>
Subject: Query Answered: All You Zombies

     EDH's second story query sounds a lot like 'All You Zombies', by
none other than Robert Heinlein.  It's anthologized in "The Unpleasant
Profession of Johnathan Hoag", also published as "6XH".  This story is
even stranger than the plot summary edh gave, and the anthology is, I
think it safe to say, some of the strangest stuff Heinlein's given us
yet.

                                      Dan Breslau

------------------------------

Date: 11/11/81 11:08:44
From: RP@MIT-MC
Subject: time bandits

My wife and I took our children, 9 and 6 and -1/12 to see this film.
For the first time ever the older ones wanted to leave after the first
hour. They were bored and asked "why is the movie so dumb".  We agreed
as did the about-to-be-born. We all sat through to the bitter end; we
all felt our two hours had indeed been stolen (and wasted).

------------------------------

Date: 10-NOV-1981 12:39
From: CHIPS::REDFORD
Reply-to: "CHIPS::REDFORD c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: ministry of intelligence

The 11/6/81 issue of Science magazine has an article about Luis
Alberto Machado, Venezuela's Minister of State for the Development of
Intelligence.  He has set up a program to try to raise to the average
intelligence of the entire country

"Venezuela's intelligence-enhancing program begins with emphasis on
good prenatal care and infant nutrition.  To provide "motivation" for
babies, doctors, nurses, and volunteers in maternity hospitals are
trained to advise new parents on sensory stimulation of the new-born
and other basics.  Instruction recorded on video cassettes are also
played to new mothers over television sets in maternity hospital
rooms....
        In primary school, children beginning in the fourth grade will
take "Learning to Think" classes on a model created be Edward De Bono,
director of the Center for the Study of Thinking Skills in Cambridge,
England.  De Bono's work stresses creativity.  Those familiar with it
say pupils are encouraged to focus on everyday problems and to
consider multiple aspects of an issue before settling on a solution.
What is called "lateral thinking" is emphasized and class discussion
resembles what is known as brainstorming in this country....
        Still in the early stages is "Project Intelligence", a course
for seventh graders produced by a collaboration between researchers at
Harvard and the staff of the Cambridge consulting firm of Bolt,
Beranek and Newman..."

The project is funded at about two million dollars a year.
    Will it work?  Who knows?  It's not clear how they'll be able to
tell if it does.  I don't think that test scores are completely
divorced from intelligence, but the connection is not solid.
    And what happens if it does?  Machado seems to think that the main
effect will be more scientists and engineers working for the glory of
Venezuela, but in raising kids' intelligence you probably raise their
political awareness as well.
    Has this sort of thing been discussed in SF? References?

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/12/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses the
movie Time Bandits.  Readers who have not seen this movie may not wish
to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 11/11/81 16:43:52
From: MJL@MIT-MC
Subject: Time Bandits - a spoiler, but not a review

Anyone care to try to explain the ending?  Our young friend now has
been left:
          1) homeless
          2) parentless

but he DOES have a copy of the map!  Methinks sequels are in the minds
of the "Supreme Being"...

                           Always look at the bright side of life,

                                                            Mijjil

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #110
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, November 13, 1981 7:32PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #110
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 13 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:
         SF Books - The Road to Corlay & A Dream of Kinship &
         "And Then There Were None" & Wave without a Shore &
   The Ice is Coming & The Orphan & The Captive & Total Television,
                      SF TV - Trivia Questions,
      SF Movies - Evilspeak,  SF Radio - NPR Series on Cassette,
         SF Music - Cosmos Theme Query,  SF Topics - Editing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1981 1134-PST
From: Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: Review:"The Road to Corlay" and "A Dream of Kinship"
         by Richard Cowper

These two books deal with the coming of a new faith in the years after
the `drowning'.  England is now a series of island kingdoms, the low
countries are gone, and `the church militant' is trying to maintain
its position in any way it can.  Into all of this come the characters
set to fulfill the legend of the white bird of dawning.  There is a
beauty of language in these books that makes you want more, and a
truth in character that makes you care.  There is a mingling of magic
and technology, and enough is left unexplained to make you work out
some answers for yourself.  I put off reading these books because of
Cowper's earlier "Clone", but may go back and re-read that to see if I
missed something in that one.

                                                       amyjo

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1981 07:59-EST
From: Landon M. Dyer <ZEMON at MIT-AI>
Subject: "And Then There Were None"


        Is included in the SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, but I don't
know which volume . . . . its a neat story.

-Landon-

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1981 23:56:23 EST (Thursday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: C.J. Cherryh's "Wave without a shore"

On reading the recommendation of C.J. Cherryh's "Wave without a shore"
in these pages, I resolved to read it.  For those of you who missed
the original review (courtesy of John Redford), the book concerns a
planet called Freedom, on which the dominant philosophy is existential
solipsism-- things are as you perceive them, things are BECAUSE you
perceive them.

The book's protagonist is a great artist, who seeks to impose his
reality on everyone on Freedom by building a monumental sculpture.  In
the process he learns to see--he sees the Other inhabitants of the
city, the blue-robed aliens that move among humans unseen.  Since the
reality of the aliens does not meet the reality of the humans, to
perceive to aliens is to give in to madness.

Although I enjoyed the book (mostly due to its intriguing conception
-- this book is to philosophy what "Ringworld" is to engineering) I'm
afraid Cherryh fails to make a world full of solipsists seem very
real.  [What an achievement it would be if she had succeeded!  Talk
about strange loops...]  The passages portraying the artist's
consternation at seeing the invisibles strain to much.  Cherryh is
reduced to telling you what he feels like instead of showing you.  She
does a good job of telling you, though.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1981 22:34:50 EST (Thursday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: The Ice is Coming, by Patricia Wrightson

"The Ice is Coming" by Patricia Wrightson is a fantasy novel taking
place in modern-day Australia.  It involves the adventures of an
Aboriginal man as he strives to prevent a catastrophe--beneath the
central plains of Australia dwell the Ice Men--they are just like real
men, except they are covered with frost and ice flows through their
veins.  Once, long ago, they covered the world with their glaciers
until they were driven back by the Eldest Nargun--a being of stone
that was formed from the fires of the Earth's youth.  The Nargun
(there are many), being eldest, has the ability to summon the fires
out of the bowels of the Earth.  Needless to say, creatures of ice
find such a foe formidable.

The old ways are being lost as more Aborigines are assimilated into
the culture of the Happy Folk (guess who they are) so no one is around
to sing the Ice Men back to their caves when they get rowdy.  And
they're feeling rowdy and long to walk free across the face of the
earth, instead of hiding in dark caverns underneath the desert, where
their fear of the Eldest Nargun keeps them.

The Ice Men have hit upon a plan--they will seek the Eldest Nargun,
and freeze him before he has a chance to summon up the Fire.  So they
take off through the caverns, moving to the coast, and then south in
search of the Eldest.

There are a few tell-tale signs of their passage (e.g., frost in
midsummer, a mirage in which the world seems to have come unstuck from
its roots) which a young man from the city first notices while on a
camping trip-- and which subsequently catch the attention of the back
pages of the city newspapers, which the young man notices after
returning to Sydney.  He decides to take action and goes to
investigate the mysterious frosts.

He encounters a Hero, who tells him what he must do, and gives him a
Power, which he may use to accomplish his task.  He must beat the Ice
Men to the Eldest Nargun, and rouse the Nargun to stop the Ice Men.

But when he finds the Eldest Nargun, he is surprised indeed...

A good read.  Just the thing for the night before a midterm you'd
rather not think about.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1981 1119-PST
From: Amy Newell through <WMartin at Office-3>
Subject: The Orphan/The Captive

I read "The Orphan" around a year ago, and could hardly wait for "The
Captive" to come out.  I think that part of Stahlman`s power in
writing the thoughts of the beast comes from taking those parts of
himself (and the rest of us) that have never been reconciled to the
"whole being" because of restrictions on those feelings by our
society, and turning them into a "thing apart".  All of those rages
and drives that aren`t considered normal are given an entity of their
own to rule, and sometimes allowed to rule the whole.  This makes
identification with the beast seem more natural.  I think the most
effective use of this technique is in "The Orphan"- the
acknowledgment of those feelings of both sexual and power needs in
children, made palatable by assigning at least their beginnings to the
beast.

I've heard rumors that the notes for a third book were finished and
have been given to someone else for completion.  amyjo.

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1981 11:26 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: TV trivia questions

A lot of TV trivia questions about who acted in what, etc., can be
resolved off-net by consulting "Total Television" by Alex McNeil
(Penguin, 10 bucks), which covers over 3400 series in over 1000 pages,
and has appendixes giving prime-time schedules since 1949, every Emmy
ever awarded, and on and on. (Where else can you learn that Rod
Serling won an Emmy the same year as Hucklberry Hound?).

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1981 0417-PST (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Evilspeak

Does anyone have any details about the film "Evilspeak"?  Promos for
it have just begun here in L.A., so it may well not be in national
release at this time.  The teaser runs something like this:

"Remember that kid you always hassled in school?" (blah blah blah)...
"Well, he has one thing going for him.  He is a computer whiz.  And
now he's grown up."

The visuals accompanying this voiceover show a kid at (what appears to
be) an Apple computer, cutting to some sort of violent confrontation
with a sword.  This film is billed as a horror movie -- no doubt it
*is* horrid.  Anybody know anything?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1981 11:37 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: NPR Series on Cassette

The Mind's Eye, PO Box 6727 SF CA 94101, 800-227-2020, 415-883-2023 in
CA, offers the following on cassette: Hobbit, Lord of the Rings,
Alice, Oz, Looking Glass, Time Machine, Jekyll/Hyde, Conn. Yankee, War
of the Worlds, The Birds, Dracula, 1984, Brave New World, Martian
Chronicles, and others.  No Star Wars or Hitchiker.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1981 14:16:40-PST
From: vax135!hosbb!lrm at Berkeley
Subject: Name that record?

Can anyone tell me the name (and label?) of the title music for Carl
Sagan's show Cosmos.

thanx muchly
lyn marantz

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1981 01:53-EST
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: typos

I believe that most modern low-quality proofreading is done by humans,
they get good at catching misspellings (your eye catches the pattern)
but not at catching legal words in nonsensical places.  The effect is
similar to a spelling corrector.  Another method is to SORT the
manuscript and check the low frequency words.  This has the advantage
that it doesn't cause the poor proofreader to stop on all the author's
made up words unless they are used inconsistently.

-- Charles

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #111
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 14, 1981 11:50AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #111
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra     Sat, 14 Nov 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:
       Children's Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
                     PseudoScience & Tom Corbett,
        Children's Cartoons - Diver Dan & Sinbad the Sailor &
       Thunderbirds & Prince Planet & Marine Boy & Astro Boy &
             The Amazing Three & 8th Man & Space Ghost &
            Rocky and Bullwinkle & Jay Ward Productions &
          International Animation Festival & Felix the Cat &
                             Star Blazers
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21-May-81 13:51:58 PDT (Thursday)
From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: More juvenile SF

Speaking of juvenile SF, what was the book (I think part of a series)
about a private-enterprise satellite-launching company?  (anticipating
OTRAG by 15 years).

--Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 1981 (Tuesday) 0036-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: Pseudoscience in kiddie sf

 ...another nostalgia trip... alternately titled "here's the !scene!,
what's the title?"
  I have a rather vivid memory of a particular scene occurring in a
piece of kiddie SF I read (heavens) in the early to mid 60's.  I can't
place the book, or even what happened in the rest, it is just the
pseudo-science that stood (and still stands) out.
  ---Basically, two boys travelling on a rocket from point A to point
B (Earth and Mars, respectively, I believe) accidentally fall out of
an air lock.  Fortunately some rescue equipment also fell out;
unfortunately, it is somewhat out of reach.  "Ah," reasons the smarter
of the two, "by Newtons <n>'th law, we can get to the equipment by
swimming through space, just like we swim through water."  And so they
do, performing a breast stroke (I believe there was an illustration at
this point) to save themselves.  I know not why they didn't
"Australian Crawl"...
  Now at this point we pause to realize that what they did is indeed
possible!  After all, they were not travelling through a perfect
vacuum, there is some measurable interstellar dust/vapors to press
against.  I leave it as an exercise to the student to compute various
frictions, stroke rates, and how long it would take them to travel any
reasonably small distance...
   -steve

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 12:24:43-PST
From: decvax!genradbolton!al at Berkeley
Subject: author request  Tom Corbett series

I don't know for sure, but I believe ANSON was a pseudonym used by
Heinlein for books that didn't fit his future history series.  I seem
to recall a Tom Corbett character, even.  After some point in time,
all Heinlein's books were republished under his own name instead of
whatever pseudonym he might have used originally.

                                             al

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1981 1937-PST
From: Tim Eldredge <g.eldre at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Tom Corbett

The mention of Tom Corbett sent me rushing to my closet where I keep
my copies.  The author was Carey Rockwell and in large type, the books
proclain Willy Ley as technical adviser.  There were at least eight
books in the series titled as follows:

Stand by for Mars!
Danger in Deep Space
On the Trail of the Space Pirates
The Space Pioneers
The Revolt on Venus
Treachery in Outer Space
Sabotage in Space
The Robot Rocket

This list is in story order but I suspect it is also orderd by date of
publication.  The stories are about the Polaris units adventures as
space cadets.  The other members of the unit are Rodger Manning, an
electronics type, and Astro, who was from Venus and was the rocket
mechanic.  Tom is the pilot of the ship, and the nominal leader.
There was also a Captain Strong, their unit adviser.  The story about
the asteroid of U-235 was The Robot Rocket.  I expect that it was also
the last of the series, since in it, Roger leaves the Polaris unit.

Tim Eldredge

------------------------------

Date: 7 November 1981 2040-PST (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: more loose ends

First off, in "Diver Dan", it wasn't "Barry" Barracuda -- it was BARON
Barracuda -- he even had a monocle (and spoke in a German accent).  I
can't remember any of the other characters except for "Trigger Fish",
who was the Baron's dimwitted associate in evil.  There were several
"good guy" fish as well, but it's been so long...

---

For those "interested", "Sinbad the Sailor" currently airs at random
times on WTBS (the Atlanta SuperStation).  Try watching during
"Superstation Funtime"...

---

Oh yeah, about "Thunderbirds".  I really cannot believe that the
British term "fab" is what they were talking about.  They always said
F-A-B (three separate letters), and it was used in place of
"understood".  No doubt it's an acronym.  Perhaps the mysterious
president of the UFO fanclub (c'mon, you know that I know who you are)
could spread some light on this mystery from another Gerry Anderson
production.

---

Here are a few really obscure animated shows to trigger those old
neurons:

PRINCE PLANET:  The rulers of the planet Radion have been observing
   the Earth, and wish to help its people maintain law and order.
   So, they send Prince Planet, to help fight evil wherever he finds
   it.

MARINE BOY:  Sort of an underwater friend of Flipper, this kid chews
   "Oxygen Gum" to avoid drowning.  (They call him Flipper, Flipper,
   faster than lighting ... no one you see... is smarter than he...)
   But I digress.

ASTRO BOY:  One of my personal favorites.  This one really was "fab"!
   Robot boy fights against evil, with the help of his friend "Dr.
   Elephant".  (The same studios that produced the program (in Japan
   -- Mushi) also produced "Kimba the White Lion" some years later.
   Kimba and Astro Boy had almost the same face!)

THE AMAZING THREE:  "Spacemen, with a mission.
                     You must make a very big decision.
                     With your solar bomb you could destroy us,
                     Or save the world... or save the world."

   Three aliens come to Earth to see whether it is so corrupt that
   it should be destroyed, or whether it can be salvaged.  They
   disguise themselves as a Rabbit, a Horse, and a Duck.  They travel
   around in this one big rubber wheel (the center portion stays
   stable as the wheel turns around it.)

8TH MAN:  This was a very strange one.  TOBAR is a robot with a human
   brain.  The show was fairly complex at times, and another of my
   all time favorites.

Enough for this installment.

Keep those memories coming!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 1981 1542-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Reply-to: "G.Roger@MIT-EECS" @ MIT-MC
Subject: How about 'Space Ghost'

I vaguely remember a cartoon from around 1966 called 'Space Ghost.'
About all I remember clearly is that the characters had buttons on the
sleeve of their spacesuits which did various useful things when
depressed.

Anybody else remember anything more about it?

                                          -   o
                                         -  -/-->
                                        -   O~\_

                                        Roger

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1981 0106-EST
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: My two cents on Rocky and Bullwinkle

        Can any of us forget the immortal commercial in which Boris is
on strike demanding "top billing?"  A truly inspired moment in
American advertising.
        Tune in next week for "rocky and his fiends."  hey, who stole
that letter...
   -Jim

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 18:18 PST
From: Kaehler at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Rocky and his Friends

I have always enjoyed Rocky and his Friends.  It was clearly made by
people who were enjoying themselves and poking fun at the world.  (My
mother chuckled at times when I didn't think anything was funny...).
The Kirwood Derby was a hat, and anyone who wore it couldn't stop
talking.  It was a satire of Derwood Kirby, a CBS radio personality
(who could always fill in a lull in the conversation) on the Gary
Moore show.  I remember hearing that R&B had to leave the air because
Derwood Kirby sued them for millions for making fun of him.  Does
anyone know if this is true?  When the show reappeared as the
Bullwinkle Show, I assumed the name change was to get around some
condition of the suit.
        Ted.

------------------------------
Date: 9 November 1981 20:23-EST
From: John Batali <Batali at MIT-AI>
Subject: Bullwinkle

I haven't seen this announced here yet:

The Bullwinkle show is being aired every Saturday at 12:30 on NBC. (I
think it's nationwide)

It just started a month or so ago.  The episodes so far:

1) The Pottsylvania Creeper wins Bullwinkle first prize in the
Frostbite Falls flower fair and goes on to terrorize the US. (Guess
who sold him the seeds.)

2) Bullwinkle is the star quarterback for the Wattsamatta U. football
team.  He is conned into throwing a game by Natasha who pretends to be
a coed whose brother (guess who) is on the opposing team.

The format of the show consists of 3 R&B episodes, a Dudley Doright
Episode, an Improbable History episode, and either Mister Know-IT-All
or Bullwinkle's corner.

It really is as good as I remember.

           -- John Batali

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 2211-EST
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-20C>
Subject: Animations


J. Ward:

        I have learned that some NBC stations (specifically DC and
Baltimore) are showing Rocky and Bullwinkle (or vice-versa) at 12:20
pm Saturday mornings.  I don't know whether it is syndicated or
network, though I fear it is the latter.

Maxi-Cat

        As I understand it, Maxi-Cat is a product of Zagreb Studios
(who cannot be praised enough), located in Yugoslavia, or perhaps
Czechoslovakia.

Academy Leaders

        Is being repeated by our local PBS station (WQED). Check your
listings!  (This is a show that features short subjects that have
either won, or been nominated for, Academy Awards. Many are animated,
including "Closed Mondays" and "The Sand Castle".)


                                                        Gene Hastings
------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 20:15:53-PST
From: ihnss!cbosg!harpo!chico!esquire!ima!yale-co!galloway at Berkeley
Subject: Felix the Cat

Gee, this all reads like something i have seen before . . .

Anyway, as long as the net is once again "soggy with nostaallga"
(sic), does anyone remember anything about Felix the Cat OTHER than
the theme song?

tom galloway @ yale-comix (which, by the way, is not Garry Trudeau's
graphics machine as has been suggested)

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 1981 17:50-EDT
From: John Howard Palevich <TANG at MIT-AI>
Subject: Star Blazers

        One SF cartoon that's on the air today is Star Blazers.  The
characters must save the earth (which has been fatally poisoned by
Deathlock and his Gamalon empire) by finding the Cosmo-DNA (a magic
machine).  Since Earth hasn't much in the way of a space navy, they
take an old battleship out of mothballs and turn it into a starship.
A crew of gung ho teen-agers and the old sea captain set out, with
"Only <n> days remaining until the earth is destroyed".

        Among other things, really important characters, like the sea
captain, die or get killed during the series, and they even \stay/
dead.  Sort of a cross between MASH and Star Trek brought down to
kiddie levels.  At the end of the first twenty episodes they save the
earth, but then the earth government wants to dismantle the old battle
ship since they've built several newer ones. . . .  The ship, along
with its crack crew (the Star Force) would then be put in mothballs.

        Rather than be disbanded (and because they suspect yet another
e-vile empire sneaking up on earth) the Star Force commits treason by
taking off with their ship, and then manage to save the world after
the Comet Empire conquers the earth.

        I think there might even be a third set of episodes, but I'm
not sure.

        The series is (c) 1979 (i think) by Sun Wagon Productions.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #112
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 14, 1981 10:34PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #112
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra     Sun, 15 Nov 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:
                 Children's Books - Mushroom Planet &
      Here's the Plot...What's the Title & The Forgotten Door &
        Wrinkle in Time & The Lotus Cave & Marooned on Mars &
           Voyage to the Earth & The Diamond in the Window,
      Children's Cartoons - Jetsons & Astro Boy & Johnny Quest &
               Warner Brothers Productions & APATOONS &
              Gerry Anderson Productions & Felix the Cat
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 May 1981 1249-PDT
From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE
Subject: mushroom planet and here's the plot

        I agree: what a wonderful set of memories this discussion is
bringing up!  The Mushroom Planet books are by Eleanor Cameron.  I
think the first is called The Wonderful Visit to the Mushroom Planet,
approximately.  There were three or four in the series, as I recall,
one of the others titled "Time and Mr. Bass". (Mr. Bass is the
character with the special filter on his telescope.)  The books are
terrific and quite rereadable at a later age (unlike L'Engle's A
Wrinkle in Time, which I loved in fourth grade but find unconvincing
now.)  However, some of Cameron's other books are those annoying
pseudo- fantasies where half way through you think something magical
is going on, but it all gets explained at the end.
        (Hooray for Ms. Pickerel!) This reminds me of an sf book that
I really liked when I was younger.  I found it disappointingly trite
when I reread it some years later.  It \might/ have been by Nourse.
The basic idea of it was that scientists created a cubical hole in
space that was a passageway to another parallel universe.  I think it
was easy to get disoriented if you looked into the cube.  There was
something about parallel lines intersecting in three places, and
things tasting blue if you entered it.  A woman from one of the Earths
appears in the Manhatten of the other wearing nothing but a
pocketbook... does anyone recognize the book from this hazy sketch?
                                        good reading,
                                                        --cat

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 1981 00:07:06-PDT
From: CSVAX.halbert at Berkeley
Subject: Juvenile Science Fiction

I too read a lot of this stuff at an early age.  Besides The Spaceship
Under The Apple Tree and Mrs. Pickerell (both wonderful), I also
remember very vaguely a whole series of books about "The Two-Hour
Moon", which was a space station.  The books mostly talked about the
mechanics of such a place, with perhaps a silly danger-type plot
thrown in.  It's hard to remember.

I also remember a great story about a boy who makes up some mixture
that explodes in his garage, coating his bicycle and everything else
with goop.  He sets the tire on his bike spinning in a gesture of
frustration, and comes back the next day to find it still spinning.
He has discovered some kind of terrific lubricant.  Who knows the
title and the author?

At the time, Madeleine L'Engle's "Wrinkle in Time" books were big hits
with the librarians and the book reviewers.  But I read these and was
rather disappointed.  I didn't like the characters too much, and felt
that the plots were fantasy with a thin veneer of science fiction,
with vacillation between the two.  "The Forgotten Door" was a much
better book because it took a Bradbury-like approach to the
science-fiction slant of the story.  Other opinions?  --Dan

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 1981 1716-EDT
From: Rob Stanzel <G.ROB at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Children's SF

Well, here are some contributions of SF I liked when I was younger
(...not so long ago, so my memory is still fairly intact.)

My favorite was "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeleine L'Engle.  She wrote a
number of other enjoyable books, but none approached AWiT in its
simplistic but wonderful "view of life."  AWit is about a brother,
sister, and a friend who all improve their "humanity" while seeking
their father, who is a scientist lost on a mission.  Along the way
they meet the force of evil, and fight it with the help of three
friendly "witches", who are really dead stars.

Another author I haven't seen mentioned is John Christopher.  His main
stuff was the "White Mountains" trilogy, about mankind's overthrow of
alien enslavement, but he also wrote others, including "The Inverted
World" (a city with a universe-distorting energy generator is lost and
must constantly move its physical location to avoid a wormhole).  One
novel he wrote [Here's the plot, what's the title?] was about a future
England which is divided into the City and the Country; a City boy
escapes from a cruel situation and goes to live in the Country.
Christopher also wrote "The Lotus Cave" which is about two youths
living in a colony on the Moon discovering an ancient intelligent
plant.

Finally, there's "Marooned on Mars" by (?) Lester del Rey.  I like
this one a lot, but I wanted more!  The book was open for a sequel
about contact with the dying Martian race, perhaps there was one I
don't know about??

To OR.TOVEY:  Sigh, yes, I used to love the Nourse novel you mentioned
also, and now it seems hokey.  The name is on the tip of my tongue...
it's something like "The Parallel World"; foo.  Someone else will
think of it, I'm sure.  Whatever happened to the "Rare SF Poll?"
                                                           -Rob

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 1981 12:05 PDT
From: betsey at PARC-MAXC
Subject: RE: cat's message about parallel universes in children's
         books.

Could it be "A Wrinkle in Time"?  I remember this as being my all-time
favorite of books when in the throes of early adolesence, but the plot
and author are somewhat hazy.  I remember something about
"tesseracts", switching universes and having adventures, but beyond
that it's unclear.  Can anyone refresh me?

B.


[Upon reading cat's message (above) you will note that he has read
AWiT within recent memory, hence it is unlikely that it answers his
plot query.  Thanks anyway.  -- Mike]

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 1981 2358-PDT
From: Friedland@SUMEX-AIM
Subject: children's sf

Hi, this is my first msg. to SF LOVERS because I was afraid that once
I got started I wouldn't be able to stop.  However, I couldn't
possibly let a discussion of children's SF go by without bringing up
Madeleine L'Engle's "A Wrinkle in Time" which won the national
children's book award back in about 1960.  It is still in print.  The
book introduced the great idea of using tesseracts to travel faster
than the speed of light.

By the way, since someone already mentioned the Jetsons in the
discussion children's SF TV programs, I will throw out one of my
favorite trivia questions to this august body.  For a genuine
no-prize, be the first to give the "true" name of the Jetsons' lovable
dog, Astro.

And that reminds me, anybody else recall George Jetsons' robot
nemesis, Uniblab?

Peter

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 1981  0:00:31 EDT (Friday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: more nostalgia

Okay, does anyone remember Matthew Loonie and his Voyage to the Earth?

I don't remember the author of the book (and its two? sequels), but
the illustrator was Gahan Wilson.

Matthew Loonie was a member of a race of beings living on the moon.
The proposal came up to destroy the Earth because it spoiled the view,
so the Loonies decided to send an expedition to the Earth just to
check things out.

As I recall, the expedition landed at Earth's most hospitable place
(Antarctica), and Matthew discovered footprints in the (snow? sand?)
leading into the water.  He decided there might be life on Earth, and
tried to convince the scientists back home of this (if there's life
there, maybe we shouldn't destroy it...)

The scientists (more like theologians of science) think the notion of
life on Earth is absurd (all that poisonous Oxygen!), but Matthew
Loonie triumphs in the end.  I think his proof was a turtle he brought
back with him (how the turtle survived hard vacuum is beyond me).

One of the sequels involved Matthew Loonie coming to earth to
negotiate a space treaty, because the Earthies had evidently declared
war--they were shooting projectiles at the moon (these were, of
course, the Ranger moon probes).  I think this sequel was called
"Matthew Loonie's Invasion of the Earth."

At all events, they were full of all kinds of amusing reverse-logic,
and were lots of fun.  I first discovered them when I was thirteen or
so, but they were clever in the Rocky & Bullwinkle sense, so probably
could be enjoyed by anyone from first to second childhoods.

Yeah, Astro-boy was about '64, I was in third grade.  I'm not sure,
but I think it was Astro-boy that got me started on SF.  I also
believe it was a Japanese series, I once saw a TV program on Japan,
and it showed some little kids watching TV, and there was good old
Astroboy.

Actually, Professor Elephant was only Astroboy's guardian, the little
robot was originally built by some Dr. Astro, who was heartsick
because his (real) son had gone and wrapped his sportscar around a
bridge-abutment.

Chip, your show probably was local to D.C., the animations were
syndicated (I speculate), as I saw the Firebird (complete with
Stravinsky in the background) on the Bill Riley Show (just before
Captain Kangaroo) in Des Moines.

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 1981 1359-PDT
From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE
Subject: more nostalgia

Does anyone remember "The Diamond in the Window" by (forgotten)?  I
loved it at age twelve.  It's about the dream-adventures of two
children in a strange old house.  Example:  the house has a set of
wardrobe mirrors that can be set up to produce an infinite series of
reflections.  When you go up to the mirrors in the dream you see two
images of yourself, each subtly different.  Choose the one you like
and walk into it, and you are presented with two more, slightly older
images.  You can work your way forward through the path your life
might take.  When the boy enters the mirrors he tends to choose the
tougher-looking of the two images.  However, he mistakes hardness and
rebellion for strength and independence, and soon finds himself
presented with only one choice:  the image of a brute and a criminal.
There were a number of such adventures, all associated with common
objects like a seashell or a stained glass window, and all having a
little moral lesson.

------------------------------

Date: 15 June 1981 09:40-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN@MIT-AI>
Subject: Random stuff

Shade and Sweet water,
        0 lat., 0 long. is indeed about 250 miles SW of the coast of
Nigeria. A search of my handy Britannica atlas failed to show anything
of interest there, although it's only about 40 miles SW of an ocean
ridge, and it is conceivable that an extension of the range exists.

        One of the things that shocked me when I first watched Johnny
Quest as an adult is the type of violence portrayed.  In most "kiddy"
shows, anyone who dies (and they are few and far between), gets it in
unusual (and hard for little Edgar to emulate) fashion, e.g. poison
darts, steel edged boomerangs...  But in JQ, the baddies (and some
goodies) bit it for guns, knives, and have large collections of
explosives go bang under them.  It might be that the people who put
out JQ were less concerned with kids "getting a bad idea" from their
show (you note that the Coyote NEVER attacked the Road Runner with a
knife [except for the knife and fork he has in his hands during the
credits]).

                                        James

P.S.  Excuse typos, this CADR has a flaky screen and I can barely read
what I'm typing.

------------------------------

Date: 21 June 1981 10:15-EDT
From: J. Noel Chiappa <JNC at MIT-MC>
Subject: George lyrics

        Huh? I thought the ape was named 'Shep' (rhymes with step).
The names for the women seem about right but I thought I remembered
hearing 'Stella and Ursula'.  Can someone find a printed copy or
something and figure out what the truth really is?

------------------------------

Date: 30 June 1981 03:21 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Warner Bros cartoons

Don Markstein filling in for Paul Schauble:  You are correct that
Walter Lantz was never involved with Warner Brothers.  During the
whole time the Leon Schlesinger Studio existed at Warner, Lantz had
his own operation.  Clampett, however, did not direct "most" of the
early 1930s WB - that honor goes to Hugh Harman and Rudy Ising;
Clampett's first directorial credit didn't come until 1937, only one
year earlier than that of Chuck Jones and long after Friz Freleng
(sic) started directing for MGM as well as WB.

Disney's PR department would like you to believe that Disney pioneered
most of the technical advancements, but it ain't so.  Probably the
most patents in animation - including the Rotoscope, beloved of
wunderkind animator Ralph Bakshi - belong to Max Fleischer, who
(arguably) exerted more artistic influence on the development of
modern animation than Disney as well.

For those who can bear the ignominy of less-than-daily distribution, a
new print apa (APATOONS) will explore the subject of animation in
bimonthly mailings beginning July 9. 30 copies to 3433 W. Sierra
Vista, Phoenix, Az. 85017.

------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1981 1713-PST (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Gerry Anderson returns!

Believe it or not, a NEW "Supermarionation" production is now making
the pay-tv rounds.  "The Revenge of the Mysterons From Mars" is of
very recent vintage -- it appears that Gerry and Sylvia have continued
to improve the technology of their "puppet productions".  Released by
(who else?) ITC, this film uses much of the sort of music which has
been used in all of Anderson's work since well before "Supercar".

It's actually pretty entertaining, and liberally scattered with
up-to-date technological concepts.  One problem:  remember the mystery
of "F.A.B." from "Thunderbirds"?  Well, in this film, they are using a
NEW three letter group in the same way:  S.I.G.  Once again it seems
to mean "understood".  Situation Is Good?  Any ideas?

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1981 1549-PST (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Felix the Cat

He's astounding!  He's remarkable!...

Few people actually know the verses of the Felix the Cat theme -- most
know only the chorus.

I believe I said a fair bit about FTC in an old digest -- I suggest
checking the archives before we bring too many details of this
noteworthy program back into the current stream!  But, yes, I will
admit that I can supply almost any details regarding the program --
but only on request.  Any questions?
--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #113
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, November 15, 1981 6:40PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #113
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Galactic Effectuator & Generic Books,
                Random Topics - Emperor Norton & Bugs,
      SF Movies - RotLA & Time Bandits,  Spoiler - Time Bandits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1981 18:20 est
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Book Review: Galactic Effectuator by Jack Vance

 Galactic Effectuator, by Jack Vance
 Ace SF $2.25 Nov 1981 225 ppgs

This book is actually a pair of short novels of the exploits of Miro
Hetzel, Galactic Effectuator.  Basically, he's the equivalent of a
private eye.  Like most of Vance's writing, this book features his
sumptuous prose and keen description of customs and bearings of alien
cultures.

The first story takes place mostly on the world of Maz, a planet whose
dominant species must make war to reproduce.  Proud and fierce, the
Gomaz once acquired modern weapons from an unscrupulous human
pirate...

 "The Gomaz, quickly grasping the potentialities of Gaean weaponry,
subordinated Weirie and his band of cutthroats to their own purpose;
they captured a fleet of spaceships and set forth to conquer the
universe.  Their raids took them into the hitherto unknown empires of
the Liss and Olefract; eventually, forces of the three empires, acting
in concert, destroyed the Gomaz fleet... and placed a permanent
injunctive agency of three parts upon Maz to prevent further
irruptions.  The Gomaz returned to their previous mode of existence,
paying the Triarchy the ultimate insult of indifference."

The Gomaz' rival septs continue their stone-age level wars across the
planet, while Hetzel solves his puzzle.

To show his touch for dialog would require a longer excerpt than I
want to type.

What fun...

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1981 (Saturday) 1327-EDT
From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: No-frills books are out!
I picked up yesterday a copy each of the four Jove No-Frills
book(lets):  Science Fiction, Mystery, Romance, and Western.  So far,
I've gotten through the SF... uh, in this case, Sci-Fi.

Each one is around 55 pages long and $1.50 "thick".  As advertised,
white covers, black print.  "Complete with Everything:" "Aliens, Giant
Ants, Space Cadets, Robots, one Plucky Girl."  / "Detective,
Telephone, Mysterious Woman, Corpses, Money, Rain" / "A Kiss, a
Promise, a Misunderstanding, another Kiss, a Happy Ending" / "Cowboys,
Horses, Lady, Blood, Dust, Guns".

I find it hard to believe someone really wrote this thing.  But I
guess you have to be half-decent to make it this bad.

Mini-review: Dull, not even a humorous take-off of our genre.

More:  I'm glad it only ran 50 small pages.  It was interesting to
read from the point of view of "how bad can it get?".  It'll make an
excellent stocking-stuffer for people you don't like, or relatives
who've always wanted to know "What is this Sci-Fi stuff, anyway?".

On the other hand, you might wish to keep one around on general
principles...

Rumor has it that Jove is planning others.  The only I'm looking
forward to is "porn"...

I wonder how many copies of SF I'll be receiving as gifts?


[ These books have been mentioned before in the digest in Volume 4,
  Issues 76, 81, and 82.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 11:27:56-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: Emperor Norton


Emperor Norton was a character from (I believe) the turn of the
century, who declared himself "Emperor of California" or some such.
He was regarded with amused tolerance by his fellow San Franciscans.
Surely someone else will know more about this than I.

As for the term "bug", I understand that Grace Hopper coined the term
when one of the first-ever electronic computers crashed because a moth
got fried inside it.  Recently, on a trip to the museum wher the
computer (I forget which it was) is now kept, someone expressed doubt
as to the veracity of this derivation, and Admiral(??) Hopper was able
to show them the fried moth taped to a page of the computer's logbook.
(Perhaps this isn't really germane to sf-lovers, but it IS a neat
story... Maybe discussion on the origin of the term should continue
elsewhere, but I am sure unix-wizards doesn't want it.)

  -berry kercheval
[ Actually, a more appropriate forum for this type of discussion is
  probably the HUMAN-NETS digest, which can be reached (as always) via
  mailing to HUMAN-NETS@MIT-AI and HUMAN-NETS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1981 13:33:21-CST
From: jon at uwisc
Subject: RotLA: flogging a dead spoiler

was there ever a final word on the infamous submarine ride?  I just
noticed in the book "The Making of Raiders..." there is a picture of
Harrison Ford hanging onto the periscope.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 1104-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: TIME BANDITS

I was robbed.  I was a victim of the BANDITS!  There is too much
violence for children and too little story/humor for adults.  I wonder
who this film was aimed at.  It might be worth $2.00 to see but NOT
$4.50!  I'll bet that most of the reviews here will be negative.

--Bill

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/15/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses the
movie Time Bandits.  Readers who have not seen this movie may not wish
to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1981 2320-PST
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Time Bandits--Spoiler

What happens after the end of the film?? The kid get Sean Conery the
fireman to adopt him.

There's this strange black lump of something in my toaster-oven, but I
think I'll just leave it there...



                                Alan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #114
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, November 16, 1981 9:54PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #114
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:
                   SF Books - New Daniel Keyes Book
          (The Minds of Billy Milligan) & Series (Darkover),
    SF Movies - Time Bandits & Star Trek II,  SF Fandom - Dr. Who,
           SF Topics - Psuedonyms,  Spoiler - Time Bandits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 November 1981 10:13 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: New Daniel Keyes book

Daniel Keyes ("Flowers for Algernon") has written a nonfiction book
called "The Minds of Billy Milligan," about a 22-year-old with 24
personalities, few of them attractive.  I have not read it, but the
NYTBR review was positive.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 2325-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Darkover - improving over time

  I must disagree with Steve Bellovin.  I don't think that the writing
of prequels has been a major force in improving the series.  I think
that the major force has been an increase in Bradley's competence as a
writer.  She has written an awful lot since she started, and it shows
in the more recent books.  According to the Darkovber Retrospective
(in the back of the expanded version of Bloody Sun), she has been
playing with the Darkover background for most of her writing career.
  It of course helps that she started with a concept that had lot's of
room for her to play around in.  It allowed her to scatter many
stories around in time, each have a resolution to its problem, but not
to the "background" problems of the series.  For instance, note that
the problem of adapting to the Terran Empire is a background problem
to all of the "modern" stories (as opposed to the Ages of Chaos, and
Landfall stories) and is never resolved.

        Steve Z.

p.s. I have just returned to reading SF-L after missing several months
(July through the end of October actually) and it is an odd feeling.
I don't feel like I have missed a whole lot on the current topics, but
I probably have since I have probably missed sveral topics the started
and stopped while I was "away".         sjz.

[ The message from Steve referred to appeared in Volume 4, issue 101.
  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 08:32:02-PST
From: decvax!pur-ee!pur-phy!retief at Berkeley

In response to a story query about the Jupiter-like planet that turned
out to be paradise, the title escapes me but the short is in one of
the Robert Silverberg anthologies the ALPHA series.

Also, I saw the new movie Time Bandits and was totally dissatisfied
with it.  I was not prepared to watch a kiddie movie and that is all
it can ever hope to be.  The plot was as full of holes as the universe
is said to be.  The anti-technology messages that came blasting
through were quite distressing and the wonderful stable of actors they
had for the movie are just totally wasted (John Cleese's cameo 3
minutes were a big letdown.)

                                        Dwight

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 17:39 PST
From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #110

The Trek Tattle
        -Rip Rense

        "Star Trek II", like its predecessor, has generated numerous
rumors in addition to the gossip about the alleged imminent death of
Mr. Spock.  Neither Meyer nor Paramount Pictures is talking, but among
the stories currently making the rounds are that:
        Admiral Kirk's son will have a key role in "Star Trek II".
        Spock's demise takes place just 15 minutes into the movie.
        Spock will somehow be revived in "Star Trek III," even if
Leonard Nimoy does not wish to play the role.
        The script, which might be in its fifth rewrite, is a
continuation of the old "Star Trek" TV episode entitled "Space Seed."
In that episode the Enterprise encountered a number of aliens afloat
in space in a state of suspended animation. The aliens, led by Ricardo
Montalban, were brought aboard, attempted to take over the Enterprise,
and were finally set loose on a planet where Capt.  Kirk intended that
they find their destiny. Supposely, the new movie returns to this
planet. The fact that Ricardo Montalban is in "Star Trek II" would
seem to support this rumor.
        Admiral Kirk loses a war of wills with the chief alien,
portrayed by Ricardo Montalban, and that Montalban becomes admiral of
the Enterprise. Herve Villechaize assumes the role of the Vulcan first
officer (vacated by Spock), and together they grant the crew its
greatest fantasy - to reupholster the ship in rich Corinthian (sp)
leather...
                        \TMP. . .

------------------------------
Date: 16 Nov 1981 1044-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Star Trek II

I came across an article in a Los Angeles paper on Sunday that claims
the next Star Trek movie will not only kill Spock, but do so within
the first 15 minutes.  He apparently dies while fixing the warp drive
of a battle-damaged Enterprise.

The article also went on to claim that the story of ST2 will be a
sequel to the episode ''Space Seed'' (with Ricardo Montalbon as a
genetically engineered superman).  Apparently, Admiral Kirk is off on
a training cruise with a bunch of cadets (his son is among them) and
they run into the supermen they stranded on a desolate world back in
the TV series.  Montalbon will be in the movie as well. (One cannot
help but wonder if Herve Villechaize will be the replacement for
Spock.  ''Boss, Boss, the starship!!'')

Nicolas Meyer (who did 'Time After Time' and 'The Seven-Percent
Solution' as well) is doing this movie.  Apparently the studio said to
him, ''Ok, Nick, this time we want a story, too.''

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 1204-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Star Trek movie update

From the AP newswire:

        HOLLYWOOD (AP) - ''Star Trek II'' has gone into production at
    Paramount Pictures, with William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and
    DeForest Kelley in their original roles.
        Ricardo Montalban also will star as Khan, a role in created in
    a 1967 episode of the ''Star Trek'' television series. James
    Doohan, Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols and George Takei also
    return in their original roles.
        Nicholas Meyer will direct ''Star Trek II,'' which was written
    by Harve Bennett and Jack Sowards. Gene Roddenberry created the
    series.

They are referring to the episode 'Space Seed' in which Montalban
starred as the leader of a band of eugenic supermen awakened from
suspended animation by Kirk. This has always struck me as one of the
best episodes of the series, except for some of the awful sentimental
slush between Lt. Marla Mcgivers and Kahn. Montalban is a very strong
dramatic actor, despite his awful series 'Fantasy Island' and the role
seemed to be perfectly suited to him.  It's interesting that they
decided to dig up another series episode for the movie subject-matter,
rather than try to think up something original. I have more faith in
this movie than I had for the first one for two reasons: 1) the budget
is *MUCH* smaller and so there will be less emphasis on special
effects, and 2) Nicholas Meyer is better adapted to directing space
opera than Robert Wise. Meyer, you may remember, wrote and directed
'The Seven-Percent Solution' and 'Time after Time', two delightful
light-comedy SF-related films. To succeed with this film, he will have
to turn to drama a bit.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 18:19 PST
From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: And Now Bjo Trimble is Heard From


        As far as Bjo Trimble is concerned, "Trekkies" are "dippies,"
at least those who are screaming about "Star Trek II's" rumored
"de-Spocking".
        "Oh, they're a whole bunch of dippies who don't have anything
else to do with their time than recognize a publicity stunt."
        Does Trimble mean that these rumors of Mr. Spock's death in
"Star Trek II" are nothing more than efforts to keep the movie in the
limelight long before it is even finished?
        "Of course. I think the rumors are meant to rivet the interest
of just about anybody, including the Wall Street Journal, which could
be better using its pages for something more interesting."
        Bjo (that's bee-joe) Trimble is no ordinary Star Trek fan (are
there any?) and she is talking about a Oct. 9 Wall Street Journal
article the outrage of certain Star Trek fans over the reported demise
of Mr. Spock.
        Bjo Trimble is the person who, with her husband John, mounted
the letter-writing campaign that forced NBC to renew the old "Star
Trek" series for a third (and final) season. She is a "Trekker," a
more dignified way of saying "Trekkie".
        She is also "not a fanatics," a long-time Los Angeles
resident, a mother, a "reasonably responsible citizen with a hobby of
science fiction."
        And Bjo Trimble, believe it or not, is not outraged at the
prospect of Mr.  Spock's departure. She thinks that those "dippies"
who will actually boycott the movie are few.
        "Look. There are hundreds of thousands of fans out there, and
only a minute quantity of them are Spockies, i.e. those who really
don't care about the show as a science fiction show, but who are just
hung up on the guy with the pointed-ears. And they are the only ones
making any noise."
        And they are making a lot of noise. A loose-knit group called
the Concerned Supportive of Star Trek have threatened to boycott the
movie, which for a Trekkie means seeing 3 times instead of 33 times,
thus depriving Paramount of what they say would be a whole lot of
stardust.
        "I got a letter the other day saying 'Spock has one month to
live!' Nobody has any real say on what the final script is" said
Trimble.
        "I wish the people out publicity-hunting and getting their
names in the paper would turn all of that energy to writing to the
President to save our space program. At least that would be more
constructive than running around screaming 'Spock! Spock!' "
        But, Bjo, what if it isn't a publicity move?  What if Mr.
Spock is really heading for the last round-up in space?
        "Well, sometimes for the forwarding of a plot, it becomes
necessary that a character die. I don't want to see him die
unnecessarily. If this is the only way it can happen, I suppose this
will be."
        The boycott, she said, would undoubtedly consist of "groups of
hysterical people with nothing better to do than run around with
signs" for the benefit of television cameras and the reporters.
        "I certainly won't boycott the movie because of it (Spock). I
might boycott on other grounds, though. I mean it better be better
than the last one."  -- From the L.A. Herald Examiner Sunday, Nov. 15,
1981.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 19:04:01-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Dr. Who 749th birthday party

There will be a birthday party for Dr. Who at 7 pm Friday,
Nov. 20, in room 220 of the Graham Student Union building.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 15:44:52-PST
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Heinlein pseudonym

The Heinlein psuedonym recently referred to in SF-LOVERS as "Anson" is
actually "Anson MacDonald". It was not used exclusively for non-Future
History stories, since I remember reading "Blowups Happen" and "The
Roads Must Roll", both early (in F.H. timespace, as well as RAH's
career) F.H. Stories, under this pseudonym, only later to read them in
various Heinlein collections.

For another no-prize, this one of the sf-lovers trivia variety,
readers might try their hands at identifying the other half of these
well-known real name-pseudonym combinations.

Real name               Pseudonym
???                     Paul French
???                     Lewis Padgett
Dr. Paul Linebarger     ???
???                     Don A. Stuart
Frederik Pohl           ???
Alice Sheldon           ???

Perhaps other readers could add their favorites to this list.

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/16/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses the
movie Time Bandits.  Readers who have not seen this movie may not wish
to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 0745-EST
From: Captain James T. Kirk (U.S.S. Enterprise) <SHULMAN at RUTGERS>
Subject: Time Bandits <spoiler>
        To me it was quite obvious as to what the kid does at the end.
If you notice he is walking  back towards the house (which contains  a
time hole).  He  also HAS  a copy  of the map  of holes  (he DID  look
through the pictures he  took at the end).   Therefore he is going  to
become another  time  traveler doing  'good  things' (there  was  some
reference by the 'Supreme Being' that this was his destiny).

        Anyway, I saw it for $2.00.  For  that price it was OK.  I  am
glad I didn't pay more.

                                                        Jeff


P.S.  Did  you notice  that  the black  castle contained  blocks  that
looked like  LEGO (tm)  blocks?  Also  one wall  was a  large  checker
board?  Right before the fireman rescued him you see a shot of a chess
board and LEGO set on the floor  of the kids room.  Any ideas what  it
was supposed to mean?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #115
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1981 4:40AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #115
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Nov 1981    Volume 4 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Hobbit & The Ice is Coming & Comics &
           Dhalgren as Hero Query,  SF Topics - Pseudonyms,
        SF Movies - Foundation & Star Trek II & Time Bandits,
                        Spoiler - Time Bandits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 November 1981 23:11-EST
From: Phillip C. Reed <PCR at MIT-MC>
Subject: "Foundation" Movie and the Hobbit


Notes from the latest SF Chronicle:

Michael Phillips has announced that he has acquired the film rights to
Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy. Phillips produced "Close Encounters..."
and "Heartbeeps" which is to be released this Christmas. He plans to
film all three parts and release them in June through August, 1983,
one per month.

J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" has just been printed for the 80th time.
The Ballantine paperback now has 7.3 million copies in print.

                                        ...phil

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 21:54:58-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: The Ice is Coming

I'm intrigued by the idea that Australian aborigines have a tradition
about an Ice Age-like occurrence.  Is this really a tradition among
them?  For that matter, was Australia affected by an Ice Age?  I don't
recall ever reading anything about the geological history of that part
of the world.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 0327-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: for the comic book lovers reading the digest.

Read the current Fantastic Four.  Ben Grimm's legendary Aunt Petunia
appears in it.

        Steve Z.
------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 1415-EST
From: RICHARDSON
Reply-to: "RICHARDSON c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Randomness for SF Lovers

It seems that Dhalgren is a small town in Missouri -- whether that has
anything to do with the interminable novel by that name, I can't say,
since I never finished the book and have never been in the town.

For what it's worth.....

/Charlotte

------------------------------
-
Date: 17 Nov 1981 0326-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: pennames

Here the Pseudonyms that I can remember:

        Real name               Pseudonym
     ---------------------------------------------
        Dr. A.                  Paul French
        Fletcher Pratt(?)       Lewis Padgett
        Dr. Paul Linebarger     Cordwainer Smith
        John W. Campbell, Jr.   Don A. Stuart
        Frederik Pohl           ???
        Dr. Alice Sheldon       Racoona Sheldon and James Tiptree, Jr.
        Alice Mary Norton       Andre Norton
        Harry Stubbs            Hal Clement
        G. Harry Stine          Lee Correy


I suspect that Pohl has use a number of psuedonyms at one time or
another.  He has after all been the editor of quite a few poor
(financially poor that is) magazines.

I know that there are others but it is too late in the day for me to
remember them.  Oh to have all my books close at hand to refer to!

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 12:00:16-PST
From: decvax!duke!ndd at Berkeley
Subject: re: author trivia

        The author who used the pseudonym Lewis Padgett was Henry
Kuttner; Don A. Stuart was John Campbell. The story that comes to mind
by Stuart is 'Who goes There?'; Lewis Padgett's best known work is
probably 'Mimsy Were the Borogroves' (it was actually in a text I had
in high school, along with 'The Veldt' by Bradbury). I've also enjoyed
the Kuttner stories about the inventor Gallagher (sp?), whose
subconscience had a genius-level I.Q.

                                        Ned Danieley

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 12:43:27-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: pseudonyms

Your answers: Asimov, Kuttner, Cordwainer Smith, John Campbell, X, and
James Tiptree (I should know Pohl since I read his autobio recently,
but I draw a blank).

   More fake names to identify:
???     Piers Anthony
???     John Boyd
???     John Christopher
???     Hal Clement
???     David Grinnell
???     Tak Hallus
???     Cyril Judd
???     Ivar Jorgenson
???     Darrel T. Langart
???     Philip Latham
???     K. M. O'Donnell
???     Mark Phillips
???     John Wyndham

(Note: these are mostly fairly easy ones, obtained without consulting
the large Index to Pseudonyms in the MITSFS. Now \there's/ an
interesting view of history! Note that Brunner recently admitted in a
fanzine that he has one really terrible early novel published under a
pseudonym that he was previously unwilling to admit to.)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 14:31:23-PST
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: pseudonyms

Re: Index to Pseudonyms. I didn't know that such a thing actually
existed!  Perhaps someone with access to this list could pass along
some of the more interesting ones. Mine were intended to be very easy.

Pohl has a large number of pseudonyms, mostly from the days when he
was editing SF pulps and buying stories from himself to make a
non-starvation wage out of it (cf. \\The Early Pohl//).

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 2238-CST
From: Clyde Hoover <CC.CLYDE at UTEXAS-20>
Subject: TREKING

        Yea for Bjo Trimble! Finally someone puts that entire Star
Trek thing into perspective!  BTW, there IS a distinction between
'Trekkers' and a 'Trekkies' - that between a fan and a groupie.
'Trekkies', with the fanatism and dedication typical to fawning
rock-star groupies, get terribly upset when they feel their ideal is
being threatened.

        The matter is simple -- IF NIMOY WANTS TO QUIT, LET HIM! I
have not heard about him going broke (he did spend an awful amount of
effort to get out from under Spock's shadow -- I'm almost surprised he
did Star Drek I).

        Oh yes, I did like the flick, and the series (I consider
myself a 'Trekker'), but I fear we are going to see a lot of recycled
TV stuff in this ST series. And face it folks, a good number of ST
episodes were pretty broken and stories like "City on the Edge of
Forever" were too far between.

------------------------------

Date: 16-Nov-1981
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Reply-to: "STEVE LIONEL AT STAR c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Time Bandits

I saw Time Bandits (TB) this weekend and came away not really sure
whether or not I liked it.  I propose the following test by which you
can determine whether or not you should go see it:
        1.  If you've heard/seen a reasonable amount of Monty Python
            and like it, you'll probably like the movie.
        2.  If you think bits and pieces of Monty Python are funny,
            you'll think the same about the movie.
        3.  If you think Monty Python is dumb, don't bother.
        4.  If you've never heard/seen Monty Python, you might as well
            take a chance.

Now I know that TB is not a full-fledged Monty Python flick, but most
of the humor is their style.  Myself, I fell into category 2 above.
My spouse was a "category 3".  The border between "silly" and "dumb"
is fuzzy, and varies for different people.  For example, I like some
of Monty Python, but I like Firesign Theatre and deplore Cheech and
Chong.  I've known others who are just the reverse.  Diff'rent
strokes, etc.
                                        Steve Lionel

P.S.  What do you think about the fact that the "stars" of the movie
who got all the billing were seen the least, and that not even Kenny
(R2D2) Baker, who played "Fidgit", was mentioned in the ads or the
leading titles?  SBL

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/17/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest. They discuss the
movie Time Bandits.  Readers who have not seen this movie may not wish
to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 (Tuesday) 1639-EDT
From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (William Sharer)
Subject: Time Bandits didn't bite that bad!

folks,
        I must honestly admit that I actually liked it.  The people I
saw it with seemed disappointed because they expected a lot more of
the Python style to come out.  Is this why I've seen all of the
discouraging messages in the digest?  As for the checkerboard pattern
and the chess board in the kids room, there were other correspondences
at the beginning of the movie.  Remember the Knight in armour on the
horse and the picture that the kid looks at after he gets up from the
bed?  It seems to indicate that the framework of the Universe is tied
to kid, and that is why it might be his duty to police the holes in
time.  What really cracked me up was the answer that God gives the kid
when he asked the reason for all of the death and destruction....so
typical!

mr bill

High point in the movie:  Robin Hood says to one of his 'merry' men,
                          "Is that really necessary?"

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 11:43:38-PST
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: Time Bandits (spoiler section, please)

Re: the lego and the checkerboard.  Actually, EVERY element in the
kid's adventure had some connection with his "real life" in the
"present".  Some of the connections were pretty subtle.  Up to the
last two minutes, the movie seemed like the classic "...I woke up and
it was all a dream" story.  Then he finds the photos in his pocket, so
obviously something very different was going on.  I am still not sure
whether it was supposed to be the "it was all a dream" story with the
trick ending tacked on for randomness, or perhaps they were trying to
express a kind of semi-solipsist view, where the Supreme Being and
Ultimate Evil are real, but exist in the unconscious world - the
collective unconscious I guess.  Hey: group solipsism!
---
Jef

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 12:33:09-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Time Bandits (spoiler)

   If you looked longer, you would have noticed toys representative of
virtually everything the kid runs into in the movie; I specifically
remember tanks and medieval archers (from the final battle) and Greek
soldiers and/or armor). The ending is in fact a cold-blooded steal
from THE WIZARD OF OZ, in which the whole point was that everything
but the beginning and end was dreams borrowing from real life.
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #116
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 19, 1981 8:47PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #116
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - No Missing Digest,
               SF Books - Giants Star & Nitrogen Fix &
               House Between the Worlds & Space Doctor,
             SF Topics - Pseudonyms,  SF TV - Star Trek,
               SF Movies - Star Trek II & Time Bandits,
                        Spoiler - Time Bandits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, November 19, 1981 8:47PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: No Missing Digest

This digest, Friday, issue 116, follows immediately after the
Wednesday digest issue 115.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 at 2242-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Mostly Turkeys

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SOME NEGATIVE REACTIONS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Buying SF books new, even in paperback, is not something I commonly
do.  Typically I only break down and do so in 2 situations-- either
the book looks very likely to belong in my SF BOOKS WITH FEMALE
PROTAGONISTS collection, or it is by one of a handful of authors:
Andre Norton, Gordon Dickson, Hal Clement, Anne McCaffrey, James Hogan
or Schmitz or White, maybe Katherine Kurtz and Marion Zimmer Bradley--
just the ones which experience has shown I can count on as being
highly likely to give me a good read for my money.

But regardless of the odds, I've hit three duds in recent months.
Hogan's GIANTS' STAR turned out to be a real letdown-- particularly
surprising since its prequel, GENTLE GIANTS OF GANYMEDE is my 2nd
favorite Hogan (after THRICE UPON A TIME).  GIANTS' STAR, alas, has
ousted his too-talky first novel, INHERIT THE STARS from its previous
position at the bottom of my Hogan preference list.

Then Clements' NITROGEN FIX turned out so dull I only got a short way
into it.  I fear the author has been affected by too many years
interaction with young kids.

And finally, there was a recent non-Darkoveran fantasy by Bradley--
can't recall the title, but it may have been something like HOUSE
BETWEEN THE WORLDS-- which I also turned in to the 2nd hand bookstore
unfinished.

The unexpected excellence from Lee Corey's SPACE DOCTOR (I'm a push-
over for "medical SF") sorta made up for a bit of the disappointment,
however.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1981 01:15:40-PST
From: Cory.cc-treas at Berkeley
Subject: Pseudonyms

I recognize Tak Hallus as a nom de plume of Spider Robinson.

                                Erik
                                Cory:cc-treas@Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 19 November 1981 20:15 est
From: Frankston.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: Pseudonyms
Reply-to: Frankston at MIT-Multics (Bob Frankston)

The trick is not only to identify the pseudonyms, but the rules for
their use.  For example, Cordwainer Bird ... (assuming I have that
name right) ...

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 18:55:14-EST
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Star Trek and Time Bandits

One reason this new Star Trek might be better is that they are making
no bones about it coming from an earlier show.  The last flick was
just the Changeling show over again, although they didn't admit it.
In the past, ST has tried to avoid inter show allusions as far as I
can tell.  Consider the number of nice advanced races they have run
into.  For one, there was the "First Federation" that built that
immense, powerful ship that could be controlled by one man.  Why was
there no trade of technology?  In the "Spectre of the Gun" (I think
that's the title), they met the Melcotians (sp?)  who had that
advanced dream technology.  Worst of all were the Andromedans, who
modified the Enterprise so it could go through the edge of the Galaxy
and zoom up to warp 15 with no harm.  \Why in god's name would they
modify it back to the old ship that blew up at warp 8/????  There were
the androids in "I' Mudd" that had all sorts of wonderful technology
(it amazed Spock) and later presented all their data banks to the
Enterprise crew.  There was the high speed water/antidote of scalos, a
very handy device for scouting out enemy camps etc.  There was the
computer from that episode with "Lucira" (name of episode, anybody)
that transported the enterprise 1000 light years instantly and
modified the antimatter pods so they could blow up.  The crew could
have looked into that things data banks after.
   The conclusion of that flame is that they ignored all the neat
stuff they picked up last episode (especially that Andromedan one).
This is going to be a switch.

   On Time Bandits; I still think I liked it.  It's not a Python film,
but it's still a lot of fun.  It's true the violence is a bit high,
but I think it's beat out by Raiders of the Lost Ark.  I agree with
the comment that the sequences from the past are too short and
disjointed, but my overall impression is still plus.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 08:30:17-PST
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Time Bandits

  ...is wonderful!!!  I agree that unmet expectations must be the
reason people don't like it--people who expect either Pythonoid
wierdness or a straightforward kiddie movie will be, um, surprised, at
least.  The tone is too varied for the former and the film may be too
violent or demythifying for the latter.
  But on its own terms, the film is a visual feast, richly imaginative
from one end to the other.  It is also unconventional -- the dwarves
are are completely selfish but charming anyway, the kid isn't just a
passive observer but obviously the master of his situation.  The
feeling I got was of a talented director playing with his toys.  It
was the same feeling of fun that I got from Star Wars.
  I didn't know Terry Gilliam had it in him.  I'll be very surprised
if this one doesn't turn out to be a major hit.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 20:05:23-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!wm at Berkeley
Location: Unc chapel hill
Subject: cjh's Time Bandits spoiler (not a spoiler)

How many other films/books have used the ploy about dreams leaning
heavily on real life.  Are there any before The Wizard of Oz -> ZARDOZ
-> Time Bandits?  Of course the real question is whether the dreams
were the reality (and what's that black stuff in my microwave oven?)

p.s. I rather liked the movie, and even though I also like Monty
Python, several people I saw the movie with, who don't like MP, liked
the movie just fine, thank you!  Is there anyone out there with an
opinion about Time Bandits that is somewhere in between "total waste
of time" and "I liked it"?

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/19/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following messages are the last in the digest. They discuss the
movie Time Bandits.  Readers who have not seen this movie may not wish
to read on.

------------------------------
Date: Wednesday, 18 Nov 1981 08:14-PST
Subject: Time bandits (spoiler)
From: jim at RAND-UNIX

I thought it was lots of fun.  Of course, I also like Monty Python.
However, don't go to it expecting a serious and consistent view of the
world (like you might expect to get from Star Wars, Star Trek, or
Butch Cassidy).  It is clearly intended as humor, and people (like me)
who like that kind of dreck will think it's humorous.

No, it's NOT all a dream, since Kevin has the pictures at the end and
the oven is full of Evil.  There are lots of weirdnesses at the end,
including his parents immediately reaching for the Evilness as soon as
it's identified.

My theory about what happens after the end is that he will take some
time to figure out his copy of the map, and use it to get back to
Mycenae, which he didn't want to leave in the first place, and where
he was happier than at home (he clearly didn't know about
Clytemnestra...).

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 18:18:30-EST
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Time Bandits (spoiler)

It is not uncommon for Python people to put in strange, unobvious
references to other parts of their work in a film.  These toys are an
example.  Part of the high quality of their humour is their
willingness to put things in that the whole audience will not notice,
or that even the attentive fan will only notice second time.  Most
humourists insist on thrusting every gag right into your face so as to
make sure you got it if your IQ could be put in the accumulator of a 4
bit machine.  You see evidence of this in other works of course, such
as the R2D2 on the wall in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Best line in Time Bandits:
    "I am the Supreme Being, you know.  I'm not dim"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #117
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 21, 1981 1:36PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #117
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Query on Alternative 003 & Cyber SF &
      House Between the Worlds & Series (Minervan Experiment) &
     Inherit the Stars & Gentle Giants of Ganymede & Giants Star,
               SF Music - Cosmos Theme Query Answered,
      SF Movies - Time Bandits & Dr. Strangelove Query Answered,
       SF Topics - Pseudonyms,  Spoiler - Heinlein and Freedom
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1981 1516-PST
From: Scott J. Kramer <Scott at SRI-AI>
Reply-to: Scott@SRI-AI
Subject: alternative 003

i would like to hear from anyone who has read "alternative 003" by
leslie watkins.  please reply directly to me since i don't regularly
read sf-lovers.  thanx...  scott

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1981 at 2116-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER=SF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The CYBER-SF (computers and robots in SF) study is still active, but
more at a slow simmer than a roiling boil.

However, here are some oddities we've come up with-- "cybernetic"
devices whose operation is mental or psionic.  Except for the Hogan,
there is little or no rationalization of why the things work (power
source?  What's THAT?), not even technical-sounding double-talk.  And
(at least in the sense of "wishing will make it so" and creating
something from nothing) often smacking more of magic than electronics.


Mentally Operated Computers (sometimes with a helmet-like apparatus)
     in...
  Burroughs, E.R.: SWORDS OF MARS
  Dickson, G.: TIME STORM
  Dickson, G.: WOLFLING (2)
  Foster, A.D.: BLOODHYPE
  Foster, A.D.: THE TAR-AIYM KRANG
  Hogan, J.: THE GENESIS MACHINE (2)


Devices Operating "Psionically" (for want of a better term)
     computers (or computer-like devices) in...
  Anderson, P.: THE CORRIDORS OF TIME <diaglossas>
  Bischoff, D.: NIGHTWORLD
  Chalker, J.: MIDNIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS
  L'Engle, M.: A WRINKLE IN TIME
  Norton, A.: ICE CROWN
  Norton, A.: LORD OF THUNDER
  Norton, A.: VICTORY ON JANUS

     robots in...
  Baum, F.: OZMA OF OZ
  Baum, F.: TIC-TOC OF OZ
  Lem, S.: THE CYBERIAD: <Trurl, Klapaucius>
  Trimble, L.: THE CITY MACHINE

     cyborgs in...
  Bischoff, D.: NIGHTWORLD
  Clayton, Jo: "Diadem" series <the diadem>

Can anyone suggest others like these?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 81 10:41:52-EDT (Fri)
From: Pavel.Cornell at UDel
Subject: House Between the Worlds

Don't take hjjh's word for it!  HBtW is one of Bradley's most
enjoyable books, touching on some interesting concepts and characters.
Of course, I could be biased, since it occurs in Berkeley and involves
in varying ways UCB, D&D and the SCA...  I suppose a certain amount of
it was that 'Gosh, I know \that/ place/scene/store/building' feeling,
making you feel like an insider, but I really think there's a lot more
to it than that.  In any case, read it for yourself; there are people
on both sides of the fence.
                --Pavel

------------------------------

Date: 21 November 1981 07:54-EST
From: James A. Cox <APPLE at MIT-MC>
Subject: The Minervan Experiment


The Minervan Experiment by James P. Hogan comprises a series of three
novels.  I pretty much agree with hjjh's evaluation of them.

Inherit the Stars:

     Various discussions between scientists theorizing about the man
found on the moon comprised about half of this talky book.  These can
be interesting in small doses, but not to the extent to which Hogan
takes them.  In fact, the book is really more about the scientific
method than anything else, with characters and plot relatively
unimportant.

Gentle Giants of Ganymede:

     The best book in the series, by far.  Since there's a lot less
scientific figuring-out to do in this one, Hogan is able to
concentrate more on other important issues.  I think he does an
excellent job of describing the reactions of human society to aliens.

Giants' Star:

     At the beginning, this one seems as good as the last.  However,
it quickly deteriorates into a space-opera, reminding me of the
Lensmen stories of Smith.  We have a threatened war, pitting humans
against an evil race; apparently impossible situations resolved by
sudden insights by the hero, and a lot of the other elements common to
galactic action/adventure stories.  Really a dissapointment,
considering the kind of stories that Hogan is capable of producing.
It does have some interesting crossword puzzles in it, though, that
are very different from the ordinary variety.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 1928-EST
From: BAILEY at KL2116
Reply-to: "BAILEY at KL2116 c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SF entries

To:  Lyn Marantz at vax135!hosbb!lrm at Berkeley

        The title song of "Cosmos" is called "Heaven and Hell".  I
think it is done by the group Vangelis (Polydor records), on an album
of the same name.  I have also seen an album containing all the music
of the series; Don't remember the name, but it had "billions and
billions" of stars on the cover.

                                                Ed

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1981 01:29:24-PST
From: pur-ee!rick at Berkeley
Subject: Cosmos Theme Music

The theme music is part 1 of the main theme from Vangelis' "Heaven and
Hell".  Its on RCA records I think. It is usually filed in the
Electronic Music/Rock section of most record stores.

It is also available on "The Music of Cosmos" (RCA ABL 1-4003).
(Leave no commercial opportunity untouched...) TMoC contains various
pieces of music from throughout the Cosmos series in addition to the
main theme.

First there was Cosmos, The TV Show; then Cosmos, The Book; now
Cosmos, The Record. I wonder when Cosmos, The Movie will be out...

---rick

------------------------------
Date: 21 Nov 1981 15:42:46-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Time Bandits (intermediate view)

   Well, I didn't consider it a total waste of time (and wouldn't have
even if I hadn't to review it); in particular, it doesn't have many of
the factors that make most American movies and TV today really
obnoxious.  But (opposing a remark about unobvious humor) I think
there were a number of places where "bits" were thrown in because
somebody liked the bit rather than because it contributed anything to
the movie.

------------------------------

Date: 20-NOV-1981 22:51
From: KRYPTN::GENTRY
Reply-to: "KRYPTN::GENTRY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Survival kit contents (from Dr. Strangelove)

Someone requested, in an SFL issue of the recent past, the contents of
the survival kit as read by Capt. Kong in the movie Dr. Strangelove.
The dialog is as follows:

KONG:   [Holding box marked "Survival Pack, aircraft
                             FT107/35, All Purpose,
                             Strategic Air Command"]

        "Survival kit contents check. In them you will find...
                1 45 caliber automatic,
                2 boxes ammunition,
                4 days concentrated emergency rations.
                1 drug issue containing
                        antibiotics,
                        morphine,
                        vitamin pills,
                        pep pills,
                        sleeping pills,
                        tranquilizing pills.
                1 miniature combination russian phrase book and
                  bible.
                100 dollars in rubles,
                100 dollars in gold,
                9 packs of chewing gum,
                1 issue of prophylactics,
                3 lipsticks,
                3 pair of nylon stockings."

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 81 1:31:53-EDT (Fri)
From: Michael Muuss <mike.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #116

        I believe that Harlan uses "Cordwainer Byrd" (not BIRD) as his
pseudonym when he is no longer pleased with the use his work is being
put to.  The classic example of this was the TV series <Starlost>.  In
the preface to <Phoenix without Ashes> (the bood version of the first
episode of <Starlost> done the way Harlan wanted it, co-authored with
[forgot, sorry] ) H.E. carries on about how he forced the TV people to
use the Byrd pseudonym, it being his right as the creator of the
series.

Along these lines, the Ben Bova book, <The Starcrossed> is a marvelous
parody of the making of the series <Starlost>.  This belongs in the
same class as <Technicolor Time Machine> by Harrison.

Anybody else out there who thought <Starlost> had real potential
(unrealized)?  Everybody I know who even remembers it thinks it is
pure drek.  Sigh.

        "I am MAGNUS.  You are registered in my memory banks...."
                                -Mike

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1981 17:16:02-PST
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Subject: Pseudonyms

Misfit Press publishes the excellent "Sciencefiction and Fantasy
Pseudonyms", compiled by Barry McGhan.  It's available from Howard
DeVore, 4705 Weddel St., Dearborn Mich.  I don't remember what it
cost, I think around $5.  My copy is dated October 1979 and has a
supplement bringing it up to date from 1976.  Since you're all dying
to know, here's what it says about the queries from issue 115:

Frederik Pohl           Elton V. Andrews, Paul Flehr, S. D. Gottesman
                        (with Cyril Kornbluth and sometimes Robert
                        Lowndes), Warren F. Howard, Paul Dennis Lavond
                        (with Kornbluth, Lowndes, and sometimes Joseph
                        J. Dockweiler), James MacCreigh, Scott
                        Mariner, Charles Satterfield (with Lester del
                        Rey and solo), Dirk Wylie (with Dockwyler and
                        sometimes Kornbluth)
Piers Anthony           Piers A. Jacob
John Boyd               Boyd Upchurch
John Christopher        John Samuel You'd
Hal Clement             pseudonym for Harry Clement Stubbs
David Grinnell          Donald A. Wollheim
Tak Hallus              pseudonym for Stephen Robinett
Cyril Judd              pseud. Cyril M. Kornbuth  Judith Merril
Ivar Jorgenson          Paul W. Fairman, Harlan Ellison (separately)
Dl T. Langart           Randall Garrett (anagram)
Philip Latham           Robert S. Richardson
K. M. O'Donnell         Barry N. Malzberg
Mark Phillips           pseud. Randall Garrett  Laurence M. Janifer
John Wyndham            John Wyndham Parks Lucas Beynon Wyndham Harris
John Brunner            K. Houston Brunner, John Loxmith, Trevor
                        Staines, Keith Woodcott


                                                -- paul

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/21/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses one of
the final scenes in Robert Heinlein's story "If This Goes On..."
Readers who have not read this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 13:15:16-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: Heinlein and Freedom of Choice

    djmolny misunderstands the substance of my remarks about RAH.  The
point of my aside was that I consider this argument untrustworthy
\\because it comes from Heinlein//, who is one of the more vigorous
opponents of the theory that an author's opinions are parroted by his
characters.
   Note also that in the episode in question, it wasn't the speech
that converted the rest of the assembly; it was the fact that the
speaker dropped dead a few minutes later.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #118
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 21, 1981 4:35PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #118
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra     Sun, 22 Nov 1981       Volume 4 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:
       Children's Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
         Correction on Christophers & Diamond in the Window &
      The Swing in the Summerhouse & The Wonderful Stereoscope &
   The Minutemen Murders & Wrinkle in Time & Arm of the Starfish &
      Ring of Endless Light & The Universe Between & Tom Swift,
        Children's Cartoons - 8th Man & George of the Jungle &
     Astroboy & Jetsons & Rocky and Bullwinkle & Badlands Meany &
       Ferdinand Feghoot & S.I.G. & Felix the Cat & Space Ghost
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 07:49:48-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Kid SF -- here's the plot, what's the title

Here's one I read way back when...  it's about two (late teenage?)
boys who's father had staked a claim on a valuable asteroid and then
died mysteriously.  The two scenes that stick in my mind the most were
first, a reference to "a pitched battle in the ventilator shafts with
tight beams" (one brother had tricked a bunch of pirates), and second,
a description of how baseball was played on Ceres -- the ballplayers
carried small heavy pellets which they'd throw to change direction in
the extremely low gravity.

Can anyone help me on this one?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 13:02:35-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: children's SF

   You shouldn't confuse those Christophers!
   John Christopher, except for a rather rigid English conservatism
(cf. PENDULUM) was a gentleman and the author of several adult singles
and several kids' trilogies (You haven't mentioned the "Wild Jack"
set, but I haven't read it and couldn't tell whether it's the one you
were asking the title of).
   Christopher Priest, the author of THE INVERTED WORLD, is a
bad-tempered leftist whose stuff is occasionally seen in F&SF and even
less frequently nominated for a Hugo (tIW in 1975(?), "Palely
Loitering" in 1979).  \\Somebody// must like his stuff; I think it's
trite and self-indulgent, an example of the worst of the "New Wave".

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 16 Nov 1981 13:11-PST
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #112
From: chris at RAND-UNIX

The book "Diamond in the Window" is by Jane Langton, and has two
sequels, "The Swing in the Summerhouse" and "The Wonderful
Stereoscope".  All three are set in Concord, MA, and the fantasies are
based on the concepts of transcendentalism--a really unusual twist.  I
reread "Diamond" about a month ago, and it is still quite haunting in
some of its imagery.  The adventures are games set up by an Indian
(Asian, not American) student who is learning transcendental
philosophy from our main hero and heroine's uncle.  Langton also wrote
a murder mystery--"The Transcendental Murders", recently republished
as "The Minutemen Murders", which includes a speculation that Henry
David Thoreau and Emily Dickinson were lovers.

Where can I get a list of the Darkover novels, in some kind of
chronological order?  I have been trying to read the various books on
hand at Rand's SF library, and am now totally confused as to the
chronology of various events, not to mention the family relationships.

Hurrah for the Wrinkle in Time--the first "real" book I ever bought
(as opposed to Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books, which sold, in the
sixties, for 75 cents and could not be considered in the same class as
Wit, which cost me, sigh, $3.75).  For any who liked the book and read
the rest of her stuff, L'Engle's two main series--those books about
the Murrays and friends, and those about the Austins--are linked
through "Arm of the Starfish" and "Ring of Endless Light"--where
characters from both series occur.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 81 22:56:34-EDT (Mon)
From: Michael Muuss <mike.bmd70@BRL>
Subject: The Universe Between

I too liked this book when I read it, a long time ago (I was 14 or
thereabouts) in a galaxy far far away....  As I recalled, the initial
experiments were an attempt to achieve absolute zero.  A cube of metal
on the test stand "collapsed into itself" or some such, and provided a
gateway into the "Universe Between".  A "highly adaptive" woman was
selected to enter the cube and explore it, when others returned mad.
She discovered the mental trick of "turning" through to the universe
between.

One of the visitors from the Universe Between was, I believe, a woman
with purple hair, who showed up totally nude in NYC.  I recall some
comment to the effect of "...and the vice squad was there in 93
seconds flat", or some such.  I believe this was Nourse, but 'tis
fuzzy...
                                        Cheers,
                                        -Mike

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 19:49:36-PST
From: ihnss!research!alice!wolit at Berkeley
Subject: replies to various items
The kiddie-sf series (or at least one of them) that anticipated OTRAG
by sporting a commercial satellite-launching service was Tom Swift (he
said spacily).  Swift Enterprises, naturally, was the name of the
firm.  Anyone remember the name of Tom's sidekick?  (Or the western
cook?)

And, Lauren, the 8th Man was TOBOR, not TOBAR.  Tobar spelled
backwards doesn't mean anything...  (Speaking of which, there was a
reference a couple of issues back to an old TV show in which, in one
episode, the heroes were abducted to a planet called Muni-mula.  In
fairness, it should have been mentioned that that was no planet --
shades of Star Wars -- but a hollow sphere made of you-know-what.)

------------------------------

Date: 15 November 1981 1315-PST (Sunday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: The Jetsons, Elephants, Smashed Cars

What a subject line!  I luv it!  OK.  First of all, in George of the
Jungle, the ELEPHANT was named Shep.  George thought it was "a
doggie".  It kept trying to jump on him (IT thought it was a doggie
also) with predictable results.

I think it is VERY unfair to claim that Prof. Astro's son "smashed up
his sportscar".  This implies fault on his part.  In FACT, in the
first episode, we see that the city had a fully automated auto control
system, and there is a COMPUTER FAILURE which results in the terrible
accident.  That's how Astro Boy got started...

And finally, if my tired old neurons aren't playing tricks on me (as
they frequently do) the Jetson's dog's REAL name was, uh, "Marmeduke"?
Am I right?  I want my prize!

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 13:53:20-PST
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: Astro's *real* name!

Tralfaz! (Tralfaz!? Yeccccccccch!!!!)

The particular episode was one in which a wealthy man tried to reclaim
Astro as his dog. (The parenthesized portion was everyone's response
to the name.)

Also, George's elephant was indeed named Shep; I heard the women's
names as 'Bella and Ursula'. I think the ape's name was Ape (???)

                                        James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 1928-EST
From: BAILEY at KL2116
Reply-to: "BAILEY at KL2116 c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SF entries

To:  Friedland@SUMEX-AI

        If memory serves, Astro's real name was Tralfaz (spelling?).
When the name was spoken in Astro's presence, he always said "yuk",or
some such thing.

                                                Ed

------------------------------

Date: 20-Nov-1981
From: KRYPTN::GENTRY
Reply-to: "KRYPTN::GENTRY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Astro's "real" name

Keeping in mind that his "real" name is due to a legal action brought
against the Jetsons and won by one J.P. Gotrockets (?), Astro was
called Tralfaz. [Spoiler] The Jetsons get Astro back by show's end.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1981 11:59:52-PST
From: decvax!duke!ndd at Berkeley
Subject: re: Astro

        Astro's real name (see v4 #112) is Tralfazz, perhaps with just
one 'z'.

                                        Ned Danieley

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1981 2037-PST
From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle

        R&B are not nationaly syndicated at 12:30 on Sats (at least
not out here).  HOWEVER if you get KTVU in the Bay Area, you can watch
R&B at 8:00AM every day of the week (Mon thru Fri.)  Unfortunately,
you have to put up with the kiddy commercials, which are probably
enough to make even Lauren reconsider watching TV.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1981 08:15:40-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!steve at Berkeley
Subject: Digest Extra V4 #100 query

I believe Badlands Meany's sidekick's name was Bushwhack. No?  /s.
nelson

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 1981 17:09:51-PDT
From: ihnss!hobs@Berkeley (John Hobson)

Yes, I remember Badlands Meany, especially his line about "We aim to
please, but our aim is bad."  Sorry, I can't recall his sidekick's
name.

Does anyone out there remember a series of short-shorts from the 50's
in (I think) F&SF called "Through Time and Space with Ferdinand
Feghoot"?  They were loaded with some of the worst puns I ever heard
(like one about an aquatic star who gets pregnant, despite the fact
that she denies ever having had sexual intercourse.  FF declares that
it must have been the result of "an active cod.")  Were they ever
collected?
                        May your aspidistras be free from root-rot,
                        John

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 19:51:58-PST
From: research!bart at Berkeley
Subject: Old Cartoons

Does anyone remember "Super President"?  It was on NBC between Birdman
and the Pink Panther.  All I remember was that he could change his
molecular structure at will, and it was a DePatie-Freleng cartoon.

------------------------------

Date: 18 November 1980 22:50-PST (Tuesday)
From: IngVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: S.I.G. in Captain Scarlet


        Stood for 'Spectrum Is Green', they used it to indicate that
everything was fine. They also had S.I.R. 'Spectrum is Red' (I leave
it to you to figure out). If you remember the show's preoccupation
with colors (all the leading characters were named after colors), it
becomes semiobvious.

                        Joe

P.S. I seem to remember having discussed this before, am I on drugs??

[ Indeed, this topic was covered before last spring.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 18-NOV-1981 19:39
From: SCRIBE::STAN
Reply-to: "SCRIBE::STAN c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: S.I.G.

In reply to the question of what S.I.G. stands for in The Revenge of
the Mysterons from Mars, it comes from the original show, Captain
Scarlet and the Mysterons, and it is an acronym for "Spectrum is
Green".  Spectrum is the name of the organization that Captain Scarlet
belonged to; thus SIG means everything is okay.  Also, on rare
occasions they use the acronym S.I.R. which I leave it to you to
figure out what it means.

                                SIG

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 0304-PST
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Kiddie SF -- Felix the Cat, etc.

Felix the Cat had a magic bag of tricks which would do anything he
wanted.  His companion was a brainy kid named Pointdexter, and there
was the Professor, who was usually Pointdexter's uncle; his leanings
(toward good or bad) depended on which episode you were watching.

--Lynn

P.S.--Does anyone know the name of the girl from the Good and Plenty
commercials with Choo-Choo Charlie?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 13:38:50-PST
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: Felix the Cat

The only thing I remember about Felix the Cat is that he had an
occasional villain named the Master Cylinder...also, all Felix the Cat
cartoons ended with Felix laughing his head off.

Does everybody recognize Felix in the intro to *Fast Forward*? If I
remember right, it was the first television picture, 32(?) lines per
frame.

                                James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1981 19:52:22-PST
From: research!bart at Berkeley
Subject: Felix the Cat

Ahh, who could forget the Professor (no other name), his son
Poindexter, his henchman, ah,..., and that evil super villain, the
Master Cylinder!!

Two gold stars if you remember the henchman's name was Rock Bottom.

In one episode Poindexter constructed a Flying Saucer (which looked
more like a flying teapot) powered by his ingenious new rocket fuel.
It seems the Martian commander, Major ..., had a fleet of rockets
ready to go but immobile for lack of fuel.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1981 at 1222-CST
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: Space Ghost

and his two friends (relatives?) Jan and Jace (or maybe Jase) and
their monkey Blip. They had almost a utility belt with all sorts of
gadgets, the most used of which made them invisible (outlines on the
screen).  I was real little when this was first on, I thought it was
the best adventure program on. It has recently been brought back with
some other cartoons on Sat. mornings, something about Space Heroes or
something.  I've only seen it a couple of times, anybody know if these
are old repeats or new cartoons?
-ka

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #119
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, November 23, 1981 12:31AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #119
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:
             SF Books - Looney Clothing Query & Cyber-SF,
            SF Movies - Dr. Who,  SF Music - Cosmos Theme,
                        SF Topics - Pseudonyms
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 November 1981 00:16-EST
From: Barry D. Gold <BARRYG at MIT-MC>
Subject: Looney clothing in Moon is a Harsh Mistress

I'm looking for descriptions of clothing worn by "typical" loonies in
Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  I have so far found only
two:  a stilyagi on p. 17 and the dress Manny bought Wyoh on p. 28
(page references are to Berkeley paperback.)

I'm near the end of TMiaHM and have found no others.  I'll look in The
Rolling Stones next, since that seems to be set on the "same" moon.
I'd appreciate any other descriptions others have found, or even wild
guesses.

A group of us are planning to march as a Luna Free State delegation in
the Pasadena Doo Dah Parade December 27.  We have a flag and a few
costume ideas, but any other suggestions could be helpful.

Thanks, barry gold (barryg@mc)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 1855-EST
From: Mark W. Terpin <MARKT at MIT-XX>
Subject: Dr. Who movie

        Dr. Who & the Daleks will be shown again in the Boston area,
next Saturday at Midnight on channel 7

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1981 1546-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: VANGELIS (other well known work)

Just as an aside to Vangelis (Heaven and Hell for COSMOS Series)...He
has also done the music for CHARIOTS OF FIRE.  Excellent listening.

------------------------------
Date: 19 Nov 1981 at 2333-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Cyber-SF Query

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF QUERY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 One of the types of computers we could use some info on are those
 whose essential function is large-scale management or administration.
 It doesn't matter whether or not they're sentient, so long as they
 "run things", are fairly monolithic* devices primarily devoted to
 environmental management or/and societal administration.  (*VISAR in
 Hogan's GIANTS series is a network rather than monolithic, and ship
 computers such as ZORAC are a separate category.)  Some of the
 questions we're trying to answer are--

   WHAT IS THEIR SCOPE OF OPERATION?

   WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES?

   ARE THEY \VERY/ PROMINENT IN THE STORY?
 and
   WHAT ONES HAVE WE MISSED?

 The following list is a rundown on about 50 such devices we have come
 across (including a few where the device incorporates an organic
 brain).

Can anyone provide additional data or corrections?


 S C O P E =  C O L O N Y

 .....Computer has prominent role in story.....
   Brunner, J.: A PLANET OF YOUR OWN
   Heinlein, R.A.: THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS; <Mike/Adam Selene>
   Hogan, J.: THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW <Spartacus>
   (cyborg--Paul, B.: AN EXERCISE FOR MADMEN <Dan >)

 .....Computer role in story not highly prominent.....
   Lundwall, Sam: BERNHARD THE CONQUERER <Utopia>
   Niven, L.: THE PATCHWORK GIRL <Chiron>
   Reynolds, M.: LAGRANGE FIVE
   Sheckley, R.: DIMENSION OF MIRACLES
   (cyborg--Mason, D.R.: EIGHT AGAINST UTOPIA)


 S C O P E =  M E T R O P O L I S

 .....Computer has prominent role in story.....
   Burkett, W.R. Jr.: SLEEPING PLANET
   Clarke, A.C.: AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT /or/
   Clarke, A.C.: THE CITY AND THE STARS <Central Computer>
   High, P.E.: THE MAD METROPOLIS <Mother/the Brain>

 .....Computer role in story not highly prominent.....
   Blish, J.: CITIES IN FLIGHT
   Clarke, A.C.: THE LION OF COMARRE
   MacLean, K.: MISSING MAN
   Martin, G.R.R.: THE DYING OF THE LIGHT

 .....Degree of prominence unknown.....
   Franke, H.W.: ZONE NULL <Central Control>


 S C O P E =  P L A N E T (O I D)

 .....Computer has prominent role in story.....
   Chandler, A.B.: RENDEZVOUS ON A LOST WORLD
                   <Central Control, Auxiliary Control>
   Varley, J.: TITAN <Gaea>
   Varley, J.: WIZARD <Gaea>

 .....Computer role in story not highly prominent.....
   Budrys, A.: THE AMSIRS AND THE IRON THORN <Comp>
   Dickson, G.: WOLFLING
   Heath, P.: THE MIND BROTHERS
   Koontz, D.R.: A WEREWOLF AMONG US <Climicon>
   Lundwall, Sam: BERNHARD THE CONQUERER
   Spinrad, N.: THE SOLARIANS

 .....Prominence undetermined.....
   Tevis, W.: MOCKINGBIRD <Spofforth>


 S C O P E =  S O L A R   S Y S T E M

 .....Minor role.....
   Lundwall, Sam: BERNHARD THE CONQUERER <God>


 S C O P E =  G A L A X Y

 .....None have highly prominent roles.....
   Biggle, L.: SILENCE IS DEADLY <Supreme>
   Biggle, L.: THIS DARKENING UNIVERSE <Supreme>
   Biggle, L.: WATCHERS OF THE DARK <Supreme>
   Harness, C.: FIREBIRD


 S C O P E =  U N I V E R S E

 .....Computer role in story not highly prominent.....
   Chalker, J.: MIDNIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS


 S C O P E   N O T   Y E T   D E T E R M I N E D

 .....Computer has prominent role in story.....
   Bester, A.: THE COMPUTER CONNECTION
   Brunner, J.: TIMESCOOP <Sparky>
   Dick, P.K.: VULCAN'S HAMMER
   Laumer, K.: DINOSAUR BEACH

 .....Computer role in story not highly prominent.....
   Card, O.S.: CAPITOL
   Gunn, J.: THE JOY MAKERS
   Heinlein, R.A.: TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE <Minerva, Athena>
   Nolan & Johnson: LOGAN'S RUN
   Nolan & Johnson: LOGAN'S WORLD
   Phillifent, J.: GENIUS UNLIMITED
   Reynolds, M.: FIVE WAY SECRET AGENT
   Van Arnam & Archer: LOST IN SPACE <Central Complex>

 .....Prominence undetermined.....
   Cowper, R.: KULDESAK
   Green, M.: THE DELPHI CALCULUS
   Levin, Ira: THIS PERFECT DAY <UniComp>
   Pohl, F.: THE AGE OF THE PUSSYFOOT
   Willer, Jim: PARAMIND
   (cyborg--Davidson, M.: KARMA MACHINE)
   (cyborg--Frayn, M.: TIN MEN;)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 15:15:15-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: pseudonyms

   I think DeVore blew it on Ivar Jorgenson, which (from other
accounts) is something of a house name; I have been told that
Silverberg both wrote and anthologized under this name in his early
days, and I suspect that some of the anthologies under this name may
have been done by deservedly-anonymous house editors.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1981 17:55:23-PST
From: Cory.cc-treas at Berkeley
Subject: Tak Hallus

        I don't have my library handy here at Berkeley, so I could be
wrong, but didn't `Tak Hallus' write some stories in the same `world'
has Spider's `Stargate'? I seem to remember that it was about a
private investigator trying to track down judges who were vanishing,
via Jensen matter-transmission gates. Maybe Spider didn't write
`Stargate' as published in ANALOG? As I said, I could be wrong...

                                Erik Fair
                                Cory:cc-treas@Berkeley

[ Tak Hallus definitely wrote the serialized novel STARGATE
  that appeared in ANALOG.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1981 15:48:36-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Tak Hallus

   Sorry, you've confused similar-sounding names. The material
credited to Tak Hallus in ANALOG has appeared in book form with
Stephen Robinett listed as author. I think Robinett has also been
revealed as the obviously-fake "S. Kye Boult" (who produced an ANALOG
serial about winged sapients).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 14:18:35-PST
From: Cory.cc-treas at Berkeley
Subject: Tak Hallus

        Ok! I concede. I'm WRONG!!

                        Erik Fair
                        Cory:cc-treas@Berkeley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #120
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1981 2:29AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #120
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra     Tues, 24 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
                 Children's Books - Query Answered &
      Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Ferdinand Feghoots &
                         Recommended Reading,
   Children's Cartoons - Badlands Meany & 8th Man & Clutch Cargo &
             Space Angel & The Big World of Little Adam &
      Rocky and Bullwinkle & Tennessee Tuxedo & Felix the Cat &
            Astro Boy & Star Blazers & Jetsons & Space Cat
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 15:15:22-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: title query

  The kids picking up their late father's asteroid claim is THE
SCAVENGERS OF SPACE by Allan Nourse. I read this for the first time
well after I got to college and still enjoyed it.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 18:26 PST
From: Kaehler at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Here's the plot, what's the story (Juvenile)

A boy and girl are visiting the beach when a flying saucer comes down
and grabs them.  It also grabs a man named Will Shakespeare off a
sailing boat.  It takes them to a moon of Mars which is really a space
station run by a computer.  The computer is curious about "emotions"
and holds them prisoner.  They escape, visit the surface of Mars,
return to smash the computer, and flee to earth.  As a kid, I was
impressed with its realism, but saddened when they destroyed the
machine intelligence.  Title and author??
        Ted.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 15:15:18-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Feghoots

   Have been collected twice (the newer printing, THE COMPLEAT
FEGHOOT, including everything from the older one). This was printed by
Mirage Press, which is basically Jack Chalker, who lives in the
Baltimore- Washington axis.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1981 22:18 EST
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Good Reading for Teenagers

As long as we're on the subject of sf for "kids" I have a few to add
to the list.

1.How about "Rite of Passage?" Although I never read even part of
anything else that Panshin wrote that was worth finishing (except
Heinlein in Dimension) this is an OUTSTANDING book for young
teenagers.  It gives them some interesting ideas in a reasonably
developed world as well as presenting the main protagonist as a young
girl who is believable and will appeal to teenagers of either sex.

2.Comparison project. Have your kids read "Starship Troopers" by
Heinlein and then "The Forever War" by Haldeman.  Personal politics
aside, these give diametrically opposing views of war while
maintaining a good story line together with some interesting
parallels, especially in the nature of the equipment.  If the sex in
Forever War bothers you, check with your kids.  After they finish it
will give you something interesting to talk with your kids about.
(Hows that for a radical idea)

3. Both "The Caves of Steel" and "The Naked Sun" by Dr. A are still
good reading and also provide a teenager with a good introduction to
sf.

4. If your kids are reasonably sophisticated, "Gateway" is definitely
good; however it requires some maturity on the part of the reader to
be sensitive to some of the adult issues.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 at 1247-CST
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: Bad Lands Meany

a friend of mine thinks Mr. Meany's sidekick may have been J. Skulking
Bushwhack.
-ka

------------------------------

Date: 21 November 1981 1908-PST (Saturday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: TOBAR vs. TOBOR

Gimme a break!  Am I not allowed an OCCASIONAL typo?  Egads.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1981 0925-PST (Friday)
From: randvax!msf780!Stern <Tom Stern>
Reply-to: "Tom Stern @ TRW c/o" <Mike @UCLA-Security>
Subject: "Mailing" Comments on Kids TV
Lauren:  Clutch Cargo looked like animated lips on cardboard cut-outs
         because Clutch Cargo WAS animated lips on cardboard cut-outs.
         So was Space Angel, which was produced by the same studio.

TRB@MIT-MC:  Wasn't "The Big World of Little Adam" the story of a
         middle-aged man (Herb Edelman) who had found the Fountain of
         Youth, and kept turning into a kid (Robbie Rist) and back
         again?

         The reason they don't make cartoons like Betty Boop (or the
         Popeye's or Superman's) anymore is MONEY!  The Fleischers
         went broke in the mid-40's because they spent too much trying
         to make their stuff look so good.

Mike Peeler:  They changed the name of the show from "Rocky and his
         Friends" to "Bullwinkle" when there was a demand from the
         network for more episodes.  Since the first show was being
         syndicated, and ABC required the name of a show to be unique
         (e.g. "Laverne and Shirley" became "Laverne and Shirley AND
          COMPANY" and "Happy Days" became "Happy Days AGAIN", etc.),
         they had to come up with a new name.

         The two-part closing theme was so that the network could
         insert the sponsor's message--"Brought to you by General
         Mills" (Remember when a show could be sponsored?).

         Rocky and Bullwinkle both had the middle initial J (as in
         Jay Ward).

Bill Perkins:  I not only remember Rootie Kazootie, his girlfriend
         Polka Dotty, his dog Galapoochie Pup, his enemy Poison
         Zumac, and his friends El Squeako Mouse (the Champion
         Cat Fighter) and Joe dePuppio (the world's greatest
         baseball-playing dog), but I have two Little Golden Books
         about him (Which may be why I remember).

Dennis Doughty:  You're right:  Tennessee Tuxedo's mentor was Phineas
        J Whoopie, not Phineas \T/.  I think the confusion was over
        Phineas T. Bluster from the Howdy Doody Show.

------------------------------

Date: 23 November 1981 1614-EST
From: Gregg Podnar at CMU-10A
Subject: Felix the Cat, early.

In 1930 a Felix the Cat cartoon was copyrighted entitled: Woo's
Woopee.  I have a 16mm print, Black-and-white, with sound!  He has no
bag of tricks and his wife is waiting up for him with a rolling pin.
He, of course, is having a fine time drinking and partying at the
Woopee Club.  On his way home he interacts in amazingly strange ways
with equally amazing alcohol- induced illusions. What fun!  , From my
reading of early TV, it's true that Felix was the first TV star.  They
put a model of him on a turntable (maybe it was 16-1/2 rpm) and aimed
the camera.  As I recall it was on Thursday evenings for a half hour,
and those involved or fortunate enough to have receivers, sent in
postcards describing their reception.  As time went by and Felix
slipped off to the floor once too often, his model was replaced by one
of good ole Mickey Mouse.
                                        Gregg Podnar@cmu-10a

------------------------------

Date: 17 November 1981 1046-PST (Tuesday)
From: randvax!msf780!Stern
Reply-to: "Tom Sterm @ TRW c/o" <Mike @UCLA-Security>
Subject: More comments

Lauren:
   According to \one/ of the origin stories, Astro Boy was
   created by Professor Aster Boynton.

   The Eighth Man's name was TOBOR (Robot spelled backwards--
   where have I seen that before?).

Roger H. Goun:
   Space Ghost is back on NBC this season in a show called
   "Space Stars."  Gary Owens still does the voice of Space
   Ghost, and the have the same voices for his kid side-kicks,
   Jan and Jace.

Ted Kaehler:
     While it is true that Durwood Kirby attempted to sue Jay
     Ward Productions over the Kerwood Derby, this had nothing
     to do with the show changing names.  Mr. Kirby discovered
     that, as a public figure, he is more-or-less "free game"
     for satire (The same thing happened a few years ago when
     NatLamp ran that Teddy Kennedy/Volkswagon ad.  Kennedy
     sued and lost because he was a public figure.  Volkswagon
     sued and won because they are a trademark).

Tom Galloway:
    The Felix the Cat cartoons were release by Trans-Lux, the same
    people who domestically released Speed Racer, Astro Boy, and a
    host of other Japanese cartoons that featured Occidental
    characters.

    Jack Mercer, the most-famous voice of Popeye, wrote most of
    the episodes, and provided all of the voices.  The cast
    included:  Felix, and his magical bag;  The Professor, who
    was always trying to steal the bag; Rock Bottom, the Professor's
    henchman; Poindexter, the Professor's nephew; The Master Cylinder,
    a Martian machine trying to invade Earth; Marty, the leader of the
    Martian underground trying to overthrow the Master Cylinder; and
    Vavoom!, a little eskimo with a loud voice and a limited
    vocabulary.

John Howard Palevich:
     My only complaint with the Star Blazers was that, after watching
     it faithfully for six weeks as it progressed at a snail's pace, I
     missed one episode, and didn't see them resolve the quest.  And
     as I remember, the episode I missed was on a Monday.

Peter Friedland:
     Astro's real name was Tralfaz  (Blecch!)

     Now here's a trivia question for you (and anyone else who might
     want to try):  Mae Questel was famous for being the voice of
     Olive Oyl for the Fleischer/Famous Studios Popeye cartoons.
     What two other well-known characters did she occasionally
     provide the voices for in the Popeye cartoons?

David Mankins:
    The author of the Matthew Looney series was Jerome Beatty, Jr.
    There were three books featuring Matthew, and three featuring
    his kid sister, Maria.

    And it wasn't that he brought back an earth turtle that proved
    life existed; it was that his pet lizard (or facsimile thereof)
    could survive in all of that poisonous oxygen, and not be damaged
    by all of that water, that showed that life was possible.

General Comments:
    As long as we're discussing favorite kiddie f and sf, does anyone
    here remember the Space Cat series?  And if you are looking for
    suggestions, I heartily recommend Edward Eager (Half Magic,
    Knight's Castle, Magic by the Lake, The Time Garden, and Seven-Day
    Magic) or Daniel Manus Pinkwater (Lizard Music, Fat Men from
    Space, Blue Moose, etc.).

                Tom Stern

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #121
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1981 3:34AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #121
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Nov 1981    Volume 4 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - Cyber SF & Here's the Plot...What's the Title,
     SF Movies - Dr. Strangelove,  SF TV - Star Wars & Starlost,
                SF Topics - Pseudonyms & Fantasy vs SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 November 1981 14:00 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Cyber-SF/Here's the Plot

I recall a story in Astounding in the 50's about the subversion of a
central computer.  The story might have been titled "Samuel Hall;" in
any case it carried the lyrics of that grand old revolutionary song as
an epigraph.  Anybody remember title/author/anthology?  Also, as my
interest in SF rekindles and I would like to search out some of these
stories, does there exist any fan publication which gives the contents
of Astounding and Galaxy from the 50's ??

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1981 at 2229-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Cyber SF

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks to Stewart at PARC-MAXC, ZEMON at MIT-AI, and Rubenstein at
Harv-10 for nominating Anderson's AVATAR and the last 2 of Doc Smith's
"Skylark" series as having mentally-operated computers, and to Hamachi
at Berkeley for the robot controlled by a helmet-like device in
Zelazny's MY NAME IS LEGION.

------------------------------

Date: 24 November 1981 15:37 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Strangelove Emergency Kit

I was TDY at a SAC base when the film came out, and my aircrew
neighbor said that the kit contents, as well as the other inflight
details, were highly authentic. (Well, up to a point).  Lovers of
spectacle should keep a lookout for a Rock Hudson movie called "A Rage
of Angels (or Eagles)," which is basically a SAC promo, but a third of
the way through they show what was a monthly sight where I worked: the
quick response alert, in which 12 B52s take off at once, three wide by
four deep and all rolling down the runway in a pack.  Even the opening
scene of Star Wars is tame compared to that.

Earl

PS Contrary to what Newsweek said, BUF does not stand for "Big Ugly
Fellow." Well, two out of three ain't bad.

------------------------------

Date: 24-Nov-1981
From: MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Trivia question

The recent mention of Dr. Strangelove brings to mind this trivia
question:  The good doctor had an artificial hand with, as it turned
out, a mind of its own.  From which famous science fiction film was
this taken?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1981 15:00:39-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Star Wars on TV

CBS has paid $26 million for the privilege of televising "Star Wars" a
total of 3 times starting in 1982.

------------------------------

Date: 24-NOV-1981 09:26
From: CHIPS::REDFORD
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX c/o" <Young at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "The Star-Lost"

A couple of days ago there was a lonely cry of whether anyone else in
the world thought that "The Star-Lost" had promise.  Yes, I did.  I
watched the first couple of episodes when I lived in Canada.  In the
first episode there was one scene that still sticks with me.  The
protagonists have lived all their lives in an Amish farm community
on board a generation ship, never realizing just where they were.
Finally they escape, and make their way to the bridge.  There
before them, spread out against the blackness, is a hundred miles
of gleaming spaceship.... The episode ended there.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1981 20:40:28-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: Tak Hallus

    Looks like you're mixed up in a different direction; Spider never
came near STARGATE or THE MAN RESPONSIBLE, two aggravating, tolerable,
and very typical ANALOG novels. Other than the "Callahan's Bar"
stories, Robinson's appearances in ANALOG were what became the first
part of TELEMPATH (I think the excerpt was titled "By Any Other Name")
and the three pieces of STARDANCE. The style and orientation of
STARGATE---superficial, fast-talking, and somewhat brutal---are
totally alien to Spider.

------------------------------

Date: 24-Nov-1981
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Reply-to: "STEVE LIONEL AT STAR c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Tak Hallus

I remember reading in Analog that some well-known SF writer told
Stephen "Tak Hallus" Robinett that his writing was great, but that
he should "change that gawd-awful pseudonym."  It was also mentioned
that "takhallus" (or some perturbation thereof) means "pseudonym" in
some Arabic language.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1981 16:30:04-PST
From: allegra!phr at Berkeley
Subject: Tak Hallus

The Jensen Gate stories in ANALOG (including STARGATE) were credited
to Tak Hallus until late 1974.  ANALOG printed a letter to the editor
around then from Stephen Robinett about how he was tired of the name
Tak Hallus (which is Arabic for "pseudonym") and would thereafter
publish under his own name.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1981 14:40:56-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Location: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Subject: Fantasy vs. SF

Two Dalton's bookstores I've been in lately have created a "Fantasy"
section separate from the "Science Fiction" section.  While I don't
object on principle, in practice they seem to be having some problems.
For example, Bradley and Zimmer's "Hunters of the Red Moon" was listed
as SF, but the sequel, "The Survivors", was in the Fantasy section.

                --Steve

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #122
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 26, 1981 8:21AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #122
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:
               SF Magazines - Astounding/Analog Index,
                SF Books - Query Answered & Cyber SF,
     SF Movies - Dr. Strangelove,  Spoiler - Thorin and the World
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 November 1981 1346-EST (Wednesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Astounding indices

A truly colossal index of the last 50 years of Astounding/Analog was
recently published.  Details are in one of the recent issues of
Analog.  I'm not at home next to it right now, but will try to
remember to send the full citation this weekend sometime.
                                joe

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1981 1122-EST
From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling)
Subject: "Sam Hall"

"Sam Hall" was by Poul Anderson.  It's been included in several
collections of his fiction.  In it, a hacker manages to subvert a
repressive computerized dictatorship by creating a non-existent person
(Sam Hall).

        Dave

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1981 at 0259-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Cyber SF

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks to SF-L'ers who sent nominations for the MANAGEMENT/ADMINIS-
TRATIVE computers query!

   ZEMON @ MIT-AI for <CC> in Varley's OPHIUCHI HOTLINE
   APPLE @ MIT-MC for Budrys' MICHAELMAS, and along with Hank Walker
     @ CMU-10A, one in the "Humanoids" series
   Gregg Podnar @ CMU-10A for Herbert's THE JESUS INCIDENT and
     <Private-Line> in Brunner's SHOCKWAVE RIDER
   CEH @ MIT-MC for one in Asimov's "Robot" series
   G.ROGER and JAF @ MIT-EECS for Jones' "Colossus" series
   and
   VLSI @ DEC-MARLBORO for vetoing <Spofforth> in MOCKINGBIRD.

CEH @ MIT-MC and G.ROGER @ MIT-EECS brought up the obvious one in
Asimov's "Multivac" stories, but because we're only doing \books/, we
couldn't use it.

ZEMON @ MIT-AI also nominated YEAR OF CONSENT (author unknown) from
the 50's and included some amusing description: a police state is
administered with the aid of a "gigantic" computer with "almost 12
thousand words of memory, a warmup time of..." and so forth.

Any additional nominees, details, or discussion is welcome!

------------------------------

Date: 24-Nov-1981
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX
Reply-to: "PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: human-computer linkups --  the CYBER SF survey

For the CYBER-SF survey on computers that link to human brains:

Jerry Pournelle used on-line human brain to computer linkups in
several stories in the anthology High Justice and in the novel Exiles
to Glory.

Since the user of such a linkup could simply think a query in English,
and the computer would immediately respond, this must be the ultimate
in (sorry, I can't resist) Human Nets!

------------------------------

Date: 25 November 1981 13:09 est
From: Janofsky.Tipi at RADC-Multics
Subject: CYBER SF

I suspect that Asimov's short story "The Final Question" fits into the
large scale management taxonomy somewhere (but I'm not sure where --
probably in the scope=universe category).

Also, Fred Saberhagen's Berserkers have planetoid-wide (non-human)
management functions.
                Bill J.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1981 1043-PST
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Re: Dr. Strangelove Emergency Kit

I remember two items in the survival kits on board the bomber in Dr.
Strangelove that were crucial to survival should the plane go down.
The kits contained ladies' nylons, to make a good impression on the
indigenous female population; and prophylactics, should the nylon
strategy pay off.  Are these items in B52 survival kits at SAC bases?
I suppose today they'd pack ribbed condoms -- progress, you know.
Didn't the Dr. Strangelove kits also contain Hershey bars?
Cigarettes?  I memory is hazy on this point.  I remember clearly Slim
Pickens' glee over the prospect of "Noo-cleer combat toe-to-toe with
the Rooskies," but I don't remember the name of the paranoid character
played by Sterling Hyden (sp?).  By the way, here's some B52 trivia.
In the South, "B52" is a colloquialism for a bizarre, beehive-like
woman's hairdo, which is where the new-wave band "The B52s" get their
name.  Maybe they should forget the bombs and drop The B52s on the
Rooskies -- they'd die laughing.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/26/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses one of
the final scenes in Damon Knight's story "Thorin and the World."
Readers who have not read this work may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 25 November 1981 13:16 est
From: Janofsky.Tipi at RADC-Multics
Subject: CYBER SF Spoiler

The recently released "Thorin and the World" by Damon Knight seems to
be a candidate for the societal control computers category.  The
computer is at the core of the world/society both literally and
figuratively (also at the end of the story but that's another issue.)
The revelation to Thorin about who is really in charge takes place too
late to say that the computer (The Master?) plays a large part in the
story line but does play a prominent part in the management of the
world.
                Bill J.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #123
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 26, 1981 9:57PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #123
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra      Fri, 27 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:
             Children's Cartoons - Rocky and Bullwinkle,
    Children's Books - Ferdinand Feghoots & Transcendental Murder
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24-Nov-1981
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Reply-to: "STEVE LIONEL AT STAR c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Frostbite Falls

According to our local newspaper, Boston's NBC affiliate (WBZ, Channel
4) shows Rocky and Bullwinkle on Saturdays at 12:30.  Perhaps it is
nationally distributed, but some individual stations decline to pick
it up.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1981 1727-EST
From: DYER-BENNET
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra V4 #118 )

(ihnss!hobs@Berkeley (John Hobson)) There is a collection of Ferdinand
Feghoot stories out, listed as by Grendel Briarton (which, in a freak
tie-in to the pseudonym discussion, just happens to be an anagram of
Reginald Bretnor).  It may even have the exact title you list (I'll
try to find it at home tonight, but I'll bet somebody beats me to it;
I see these digests in a once-a-week chunk).  Ferdinand Feghoot is,
incidentally, a registered trademark of the gentleman named above.  I
have a friend who writes similar awful pun stories about a character
known as Marc A.  Registrada....

------------------------------

Date: 24-Nov-1981
From: MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Jane Langton

Oh, yes, Jane Langton's excellent "Transcendental Murder" was
mentioned in last week's "children's digest."  I recently was told
that the name was changed to "The Minuteman Murder" by the publisher
so people wouldn't confuse transcendentalism (the philosophy) with the
pop meditation technique.  Read her mysteries: all three are out in
paperback.
Martin.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #124
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 26, 1981 10:40PM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #124
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 28 Nov 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:
          SF Books - Their Magesties' Bucketeers & Cyber SF,
                       Random Topics - Beehive,
                SF TV - Prisoner,  Spoiler - Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1981 0857-PST
Subject: Review of L. Neil Smith's latest
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

        L. Neil Smith has a new one out: \Their Magesties'
Bucketeers./ If you've been staying away from Smith because of his
libertarianism, you might want to take another look.  Aside from an
absolutely unnecessary prologue (and a few paragraphs at the end) this
has nothing to do with his two earlier works, either in style,
message, or content.

        This is a tour de force about a society where the intelligent
creatures are tri-laterally symmetrical (the cover picture is an
accurate description), tri-sexual (much better than I've seen this
done before) and otherwise built on systems of 3s and 9s rather than
4s and 10s.  The story takes place in the equivalent of a Victorian
England, with a (male) hero based on Sherlock Holmes and a (surmale)
foil, based on Dr.  Watson.  It is a reasonably good locked-door
mystery (I'm not a mystery fan, so I really can't comment on just how
good a mystery it is).

        The picky will find some flaws in the translation, but it is
great fun looking for them.  Although I liked previous Smith books, I
recognize where they might not appeal to everyone; this one, I
recommend generally.

        Mike <Leavitt at USC-ISI>

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1981 0901-PST
Subject: cyber-sf/role of computer
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

        Wouldn't John Ford's \Web of Worlds/ qualify as a book where
the computer has an important galaxy-wide role?  It is the
communications link among all intelligent people, it has a small
identity of its own, it is both a tool for the protagonist and an
antagonist in its own right.

        Mike
------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1981 1357-PST
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: B52's and hair

The name of the hairdo, which was popular in the early 60's (my
grandmother used to take me to the beauty parlor with her all the
time; she, along with most of the women I knew in her age group, wore
one), is called the BEEHIVE.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1981 11:16 EST
From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Extra - Old TV Shows

Truly one of the most bizarre series ever had to be The Prisoner.  It
originally ran during the summer of 1968 and was rerun last summer by
our local PBS station.  Since this is something of a cult classic, I
assume most people have heard of it (T?)  What brought it to mind was
the intersection of the SF digest on TV shows and the following news
item (note the last sentence):

    WASHINGTON - Expertise acquired in the CIA was used by Edwin P.
Wilson, the former American intelligence agent now working for Libya,
in establishing his private business empire, which is based on
clandestine operations, according to former associates and corporate
documents. For the last five years he has continued to practice, in a
civilian profit-making capacity, the business of intelligence and
covert operations for such unfriendly governments as Libya, where he
is a fugitive. For many government officials, Wilson's career
illustrates a growing problem: the re-entry of special trained
intelligence and military employees into civilian life with skills
that are not marketable, or often illegal, in the United States but
are welcomed abroad.

                        - Michel

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 11/27/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses the
Prisoner TV show, addressing the question of why number 7 resigned.
Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1981 14:51 PDT
From: Hamachi at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Spoiler even for those familiar with The Prisoner TV show

 I found a book which answers the "Why did you resign?" question from
 The Prisoner TV show.

The source is THE COMPLETE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF TELEVISION PROGRAMS
1947-1979, by Vincent Terrace.  It says,

"Assigned to locate a missing scientist, secret agent John Drake*
permits him to defect to Russia when he discovers the nature of the
doctor's work:  to complete a deadly mind transference device.
Returning to England and reprimanded for his actions, Drake resigns,
feeling it is a matter of principal.

*The agent's name is not revealed, but is assumed to be John Drake as
'The Prisoner' is a continuation from the last episode of 'Secret
Agent' "

Wasn't there an episode of The Prisoner which involved this mind
transfer device?  Does anybody believe this?

Incidentally, this same book has entries for all my favorite TV shows,
including Topper, Space Angels, Mr. Terrific, Planet Patrol, and
Commando Cody.

BCNU,

Gordon Hamachi

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Nov  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #125
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 28, 1981 1:19AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #125
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 29 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
               Yellowthread Street Mystery & Cyber SF,
         SF Movies - Escape from New York,  SF TV - Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1981 12:15:14-PST
From: allegra!jdd at Berkeley
Subject: Here's the plot, What's the title?

I read my first science fiction story n years ago and have spent the
last O(n) years trying to find it again.  The plot in brief:

Space explorers land on a planet somewhere.  It's deserted, but there
are lots of funny artifacts lying around.  They find a bottle of
liquid whose label, one of the explorers eventually translates, reads
"Everybody drinks <Vreebie>".  One of them opens the bottle, at which
point the translator decides that the label should have read
"<Vreebie> drinks everybody", which is a different proposition indeed.
Other stuff happens too.

Any guesses as to the title, author, etc.?  (I don't need guesses as
to the story's literary quality.)  It was probably in a collection of
short stories published in the late 1950's, as that's what my father
had a lot of.

Cheers, John

------------------------------

Date: 27-Nov-1981
From: MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SCI FI

Subj: SCI FI -- a Yellowthread Street Mystery, by William Marshall

(or, Norescon was never like this.)

While wandering through my local library looking for "Easy Travel to
Other Planets" (has anybody read this?), I came upon this mystery
novel, published in 1981 by Holt, Rinehart and Winston.

It's set in Hong Kong, during the All-Asia Science Fiction and Horror
Movie Convention "in the midst of cheering crowds of never less than
five thousand dressed-up raving and cheering fans."

In brief, an agreeable waste of two hours or so, but don't assume
you'll gain any insights into sci fi.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1981 17:40:43-PST
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: cyber sf

Wouldn't "The Jesus Incident" and to a latter degree "Destination
Void" by Herbert be to some extent SCOPE=UNIVERSE stories
- Brad

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1981 0108-PST
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Escape from New York


I recently saw this flick (work of John Carpenter) and recommend it.
The plot is not the most original or even believable, nor are the
special effects fantastic (although they are not really bad).  But the
movie is a very good "mood" piece.  The music is excellent (get a good
sound systme so the subsonics come through well), the lighting superb,
and even the unrealistic special effects (like the opening shot of Air
Force One) add to its appeal on this level.

I've seem it several times now (once in Paris, once in Amsterdam) and
it still does not bore (as Star Wars began to do for me after several
veiwings).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 81 14:49-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: why #7 (???) resigned

Who's #7??? It was #6!

[ Undoubtably a slip of the fingers.  -- Jim ]

The name of the episode which dealt with the specific reason for
resigning was `Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling', admired by many as
the best episode in the series, but generally unimpressive to me. My
favorites are `The Schizoid Man', `A, B and C', `Living in Harmony',
and `Dance of the Dead'.

I try to watch the entire series once each year since a friend has the
whole collection sans commercials on videotape.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #126
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, November 30, 1981 1:10AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #126


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Nov 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:
       SF Books - "The Washing-Machine Tragedy" & Survey Ship &
         The Complete Index to Astounding/Analog & Cyber SF,
           SF TV - Prisoner,  SF Movies - Dr. Strangelove,
                 SF Topics - Computer Security Query
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1981  7:17:28 EST (Sunday)
From: Andrew Malis <malis at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: New SF in "The New Yorker"

Recently, "The New Yorker" has been publishing a new series of
humorous short stories by Stanislaw Lem.  The latest installment, "The
Washing-Machine Tragedy", in the November 30th issue, is a must read
for anyone who likes Lem or appreciates good humor/satire.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 28 November 1981 17:32 est
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Review: Survey Ship by Marion Zimmer Bradley

This is the first Bradley I've read.  Yipes! I hope the Darkover stuff
is better than this.  What can you say about a book that makes a big
thing about string quartets, yet twice refers to the FRETS of a
violin?  Or that uses light-years as a unit of duration?  There is
more wrong with the book than these nits.  I found the basic concept
fine, but laced with improbabilities too gross to ignore.

The scenario is that each year Earth sends out a survey ship to seek
new worlds suitable for colonization.  The crew is made of the very
best young people all Earth has to offer - they are raised from age
six to be crew, and never know any other possibility of life.  So you
have the ship full of well trained, talented, but still inexperienced
young adults, finally doing the thing they've been raised to do.

The ship develops mysterious failures.  People get hurt.  There's a
dreary oversupply of sexual interactions (The book has a surfeit of
illustrations, rather nicely done, but they tend to dwell too much on
the curvaceous female crew members.)

Would YOU send out your annual survey ship without including a radio?
Would you select a crew and put them on the ship with NO prior testing
for compatibility?  Would you leave it to the crew to select their own
direction to explore?  Oh well, the supply of absurd improbabilities
go on and on and on.  No wonder Earth is in such bad shape.
 Survey Ship by Marion Zimmer Bradley.
 Ace SF 1980 $2.50 231 pages

------------------------------

Date: 28 November 1981 1318-EST (Saturday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: Astounding/Analog Index

The Complete Index to Astounding/Analog

Being an Index to the 50 Years of Astounding Stories-Astounding SF &
Analog:  January 1930---December 1979 together with the Analog Annual,
the Analog Yearbook & The John W. Campbell Memorial Anthology.

Compiled by Mike Ashley wit the assistance of Terry Jeeves.

Robert Weinberg Productions, 1981 15145 Oxford Drive.  Oak Forest, IL
60452

$29.95

ISBN 0-934498-07-5

                                ---joe

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1981 14:50 EST
From: Marshall.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #122

Wasn't there a short story by Simak about the discovery of a metal
sphere the size of a world that was really a computer. The race that
built this computer found that the machine wasn't big enough to solve
their problem and left it behind leaving everyone (including the
reader) wondering what the problem was (probably an AI project). This
surely rates as one of science fiction's largest computers.

Sidney Marshall

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1981 17:39:07-PST
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: The Prisoner

Yes, there certainly was an episode of TP that involved a mind
transfer device.  It had one of their better endings too.  You can
read a complete Prisoner episode guide in the normally trashy magazine
"starlog" about a year and a half ago.

For those in the New-York/Ontario area, The Prisoner is shown Saturday
nights at (gasp) 3:15 am on MTV, Ch. 47 in Toronto

Who is this number SEVEN you are referring to?
[ The Spoiler Warning in volume 4, issue 124 inadvertantly referred to
  number 7 when number 6 was clearly called for.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1981 2258-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Dr. Strangelove survival kit

My request for the contents of the B52's survival kit in "Dr.
Strangelove" has generated a lot more discussion than I anticipated,
so I thought I'd supply one of the two complete inventories I
received.

Thanks to Lauren.

-------

Contents of survival kit:

1 .45 calibre automatic
2 boxes ammunition
4 days concentrated emergency rations
1 drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills,
  pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills
1 miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible
$100 in rubles
$100 in gold
9 packs of chewing gum
1 issue of prophylactics
3 lipsticks
3 pair of nylon stockings

Shoot!  A fellow could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all
that stuff.

-------

I quite agree.

                                        -- Roger

------------------------------

Date: 28-Nov-1981
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX
Reply-to: "PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Computer Security Query

Earl Boebert's recent query about "Sam Hall" (Poul Anderson, copyright
1953 in Astounding Science-Fiction and reprinted in "The Best of Poul
Anderson," Pocket Books, 1976) has led me to make the following query:

Can the readers of SFL come up with a list of other stories about
computer security penetrations?  The list starts with:

Anderson, Poul, "Sam Hall," Astounding Science-Fiction, 1953.
Heinlein, Robert A., "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," 1966.  Hogan,
James P., "Giant's Star," 1981.  McNeil, John, "The Consultant," 1978.


I will maintain a summary of the results and make it available to SFL
readers after the responses die down.

[ Please respond to this query directly to Paul by mailing via Young
  at DEC-Marlboro, not the digest proper.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Dec  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #127
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 1981 4:28AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #127
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:
                SF Books - Query Answered & Cyber SF &
           The Last Dangerous Visions & Series (Darkover) &
                        Nitrogen Fix & Galaxy,
              Humor - Outland & Raiders of the Lost Ark,
         SF TV - Making of Raiders of the Lost Ark & Dr. Who
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01 Dec 1981 0053-PST
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: re: Here's the plot, What's the title?

[In reply to message sent 24 Nov 1981 12:15:14-PST.]

The substance that drinks everyone is "Voozy", not "Vreebie", and the
scene you describe comes from "Untouched by Human Hands", be Sheckley.
It can be found in a collection under the same title.

          -- Don.

------------------------------

Date:  1 Dec 1981 at 0136-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Cyber SF

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some background on the project, and a query:

Each unique kind of automaton in a book gets an individual entry in
the database (which now numbers in the 800's).  The entry contains (in
addition to author, title, copyright date, and name of device if
known) a number of data-fields we are trying to fill in.  One of the
built-in problems is that we didn't know all the characteristics we
wanted to include in data-fields until a lot of books had already been
read and their entries created (and often the content largely
forgotten).

Just such a belatedly-recognized-as-needed characteristic has been
added to the field for FUNCTION/MILIEU, that of \agriculture/.

We are interested in either specific automata such as the robotic farm
machines in Norton's DARK PIPER, or general reference to very highly
automated agriculture as in Brunner's A PLANET OF YOUR OWN where vast
expanses on low-populated planets were "farmed" by machinery under the
direction of individual bright 12-year-olds.
If you recall anything similar, or perhaps humanoid robots as farm
hands in a book by anyone other than Ron Goulart, please let us know.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 81 1:39-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS temporarily axed

In this month's LOCUS:

        Two and a half years after the report of its sale to Berkley
        Putnam for a $50,000 advance, Berkley has renounced rights to
        THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS edited by Harlan Ellison. The
        original contracts were never signed by Ellison and the
        advance never paid. Ellison recently returned the contracts
        with a number of changes which Berkley found unacceptable, and
        Berkley felt its original offer no longer stood after such a
        long delay. Berkley recently stopped publishing its own
        hardcovers and offered to publish the book as a trade
        paperback. Ellison says the anthology, which is now estimated
        to require three volumes, deserves a hardcover edition.
        Berkley Books is still interested in doing a mass market
        paperback and offered the $50,000 as a floor.  But it does not
        want to be the prime contractor. Putnam does not want to do
        the book in hardcover.

        DANGEROUS VISIONS and AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS are the two
        most successful original sf anthologies of all time. They have
        been constantly in print and have sold hundreds of thousands
        of copies.

        THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS is the most famous unfinished book
        in the sf field. Although the stories have been in existence
        for the last decade, the introductory material by Ellison,
        considered one of the main reasons for the continuing success
        of the earlier books is still only partially written.

        According to Ellison, the introductions for the first two
        volumes are done. He claims he did not turn them in because of
        a dispute with the British publishers Millington and Pan. He
        has now bought back the British rights to the third book for
        $10,000. Harper's initial $10,000 advance will be repaid when
        hardcover rights are sold again.

        The anthology started as an offshoot of AGAIN, DANGEROUS
        VISIONS (Doubleday 1972). In the introduction to that book,
        Ellison said he and his editor, Larry Ashmead, had decided to
        split the purchased wordage and publish two separate volumes
        six months apart, rather than try to sell an expensive
        two-volume set. Before the later volume was finished, Ellison
        had broken with Doubleday. The book was resold to Harper &
        Row, and Doubleday's interest was bought out.

        The 1973 tentative table of contents for the Harper edition of
        THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS had 77 stories, with early work by
        writers who became known during the '70s, including Vonda
        McIntyre, Octavia Butler, Edward Bryant, Jerry Pournelle, and
        Mildred Downey Broxon, plus some of the last stories from late
        authors such as Edgar Pangborn, Tony Boucher, Cordwainer
        Smith, Tom Reamy, and Edmund Hamilton and Leigh Brackett
        (whose story combined their two best-known series).

        By 1979, 113 stories had been bought, and the number has
        apparently increased during the past two years.

        Richard Curtis, who recently became Ellison's literary agent,
        has taken over the task of reselling the book, now that
        Berkley has rejected the revised and delayed contract.

------------------------------

Date:  1 Dec 1981 0121-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: darkover, a passable chronology, Nitrogen Fix, and Galaxy

Several issues back, someone requested a chronology for the Darkover
books.  I am presenting a partial chronology, it has two questionable
titles.  I will correct them as soon as I can.

          Darkover Landfall - origin story

          Two to Conquer - Ages of Chaos stories
          Storm Queen

          Birds of Prey (?) - Larry Montray and Kennard Alton
          Star of Danger (?)
          Winds of Darkover

          Spell Sword - not sure how to classify these
          Forbidden Tower
          Bloody Sun

          Heritage of Hastur - the Regis Hastur stories
          Sharra's Exile
                    Sword of Aldones  - this covers the same period as
                                                  Sharra's Exile
          World Wreckers


These I can't place.  I haven't the time to re-read them for the
internal clues I need.
          The Shattered Chain
          Planet Savers

There was mention of a DARKOVER CONCORDANCE in volume 4 issue 101 of
SF-L, that would have a better chronology plus it might have a
genealogy.

          Steve Z.

p.s.  I want to put in a good word for NITROGEN FIX.  If you like
Clement and hard SF, you will probably like this.
p.p.s.  There is a two volume paperback book called GALAXY, from
Playboy Press at $2.50/volume, edited by Fred Pohl, Martin H
Greenberg, and Joseph D. Olander.  They claim it is representative
material from the 30 years of Galaxy.  If you are new to SF, you might
like it and probably won't have read the stories a dozen times
already.  If you are old to SF but want a nice reference book, volume
two contains a cross index of all the stories, articles, and book
reviews that appeared in Galaxy.  It also has some interesting little
essays by the author's (things like why they wanted to strangle Horace
Gold, or what he did for/to them, etc.).

------------------------------

Date: 30-Nov-1981
From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR
Reply-to: "STEVE LIONEL AT STAR c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Alfred E. Neumann strikes back

The latest issue of MAD Magazine contains excellent satires of both
"Outland" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Look for the cover which
shows Indiana Jones grabbing a golden bust of Alfred E. Neumann.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1981 at 1428-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: "raiders"

Not being a TV watcher, I don't know whether/which PBS programs are
national.  But, here in Austin we'll be getting "The Making of
RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK" --- which I'm told is NOT the one that was
on commercial TV with Harrison Ford as interlocutor --- this coming
Thurs., Dec. 3rd, at 8:30 CST.

------------------------------

Date: 30-Nov-1981
From: JONATHAN OSTROWSKY AT GALAXY
Reply-to: "JONATHAN OSTROWSKY AT GALAXY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: program note

This Saturday (December 5) at 7:30, Channel 2 in Boston will air a
program called "The Making of Raiders of the Lost Ark."  As the
promo says, it's your big chance to follow the camera behind the
camera.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1981 04:57:48-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!intelqa!kds at Berkeley
Subject: Dr. Who

It would seem that channel 54 in San Jose has picked up Dr. Who in
the bay area and runs it every weeknight at 6:00!!!!!!!!

toodles                                 kds
[ The entire series of Dr. Who will be rerun, from the first episode,
  on channel 54 beginning sometime this December.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #128
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 1981 3:21AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #128
To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:
          SF Books - "The Saturn Game" & Series (Darkover),
       SF Topics - Science and the Public,  Spoiler - Prisoner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 December 1981 11:47 edt
From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-Multics
Subject: Role Playing Games in SF

I recently read what appears to be a new collection of short stories
by Poul Anderson, the lead story being "The Saturn Game".  In the
discussion that was held some time ago about role playing games being
used as part of the plot device in SF stories, no one mentioned this
story (to my recollection).  The collection as a whole is quite good,
and this story in particular is well-done.  The integration of the
fantasy role playing game with an 8 year mission to Saturn is
believable, as are the implications and developments drawn in the
story.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1981 10:49:10-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: darkover concordance

   There are some specific errors in the concordance presented:
1. THE SPELL SWORD is the earliest story after the close of the ages
of chaos; it and THE FORBIDDEN TOWER belong 4th and 5th on the list.
2. TWO TO CONQUER is closer to the end of the aoc than STORM QUEEN, as
it shows the genesis of the Compact.
3. I've never seen BIRDS OF PREY, but STAR OF DANGER (which could be a
superset of it) belongs between FORBIDDEN TOWER (Kennard's father,
Valdir, as a boy) and BLOODY SUN (Kennard in middle age).
4. WINDS OF DARKOVER is probably a bit before STAR OF DANGER since the
heroine there is a very old woman in WORLD WRECKERS, when Kennard
would be in late middle age if he had lived.
5. PLANET SAVERS is another young Regis Hastur story, probably between
HoH and SE (internal evidence somewhat ambiguous); SHATTERED CHAIN is
near FORBIDDEN TOWER, since Kyril Ardais is boy in SC and his son is
middle-aged in HoH & SE.

   This gives, approximately:

        Darkover Landfall

        Storm Queen

        Two to Conquer


        Spell Sword
        Forbidden Tower

        Winds of Darkover
        The Shattered Chain

        Star of Danger

        Bloody Sun
        Heritage of Hastur
        Planet Savers
        Sharra's Exile
                Sword of Aldones
        World Wreckers

with empty lines indicating larger spaces (roughly a generation). This
is \\very// crude; I never could keep the various generations of
Montrays straight, and they provide crosslinks to a number of these
stories. Note also that I'm remembering this as I go along; I would
have sworn \somebody/ quoted the Concordance here a few months ago but
I'm too lazy to go dig it up.

[ This was indeed done.  Your trusty moderator shall endeavor to
  recall the appropriate messages from tape.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1981 2232-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Re: darkover concordance

   Hmm, all in all, I didn't do too badly (better than most psychics
at any rate).  I forgot to bring my list of the books with me when I
was getting ready to send that message.  That is the problem with
having my books in one place, my notes in a second, and sending all
mail from a third.
   I tried to place the books by my memory of who was in them.  It
seems to me that Star of Danger is when Lerrys Montray returned to
Darkover with his father.  If this is true, Star of Danger must be
placed before Winds of Darkover.  Lerrys Montray makes a brief
appearance at Armida in Winds of Darkover.  I don't know why, but I
feel that Kennard was at school on Earth during this book.
   I was wrong about Two to Conquer.  Now that I think about it, that
is the story of the unification of kingdoms under one ruler.
   One of the problems with build a chronology of Darkover is the very
thing that has allowed Bradley to keep it going.  She has allowed
herself to "ignore" some details from book to book.  When a story
demands it, she warps Darkover's "reality" a little by ignoring poorly
thought out details from previously written books.  Although, she
claims that to arrange for Thyra and Lew's child she did more work
than the characters did.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1981 18:24:48 EST (Tuesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: douglas adams on "Cosmos"

thumbing through the July 23 "New Scientist" (which, thanks to my
position at the bottom of the distribution list arrived on my desk
last week) I found a review of a book ("Genesis", by John Gribbin)
written by Douglas Adams, author of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy."

Adams had this to say about a subject near and dear to SF-Lover's
heart:

    Writing about science for the layman is a difficult art, as
    Carl Sagan has recently demonstrated by doing it surprisingly
    badly on his TV show "Cosmos."  This show seemed to work from
    the assumption that the layman's interest is best sustained by
    glossing quickly over the tricky ideas and getting straight on
    with the adjectives.

Oh, by the way, Adams liked Gribbin's book.

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 12/2/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses the
Prisoner TV show, addressing the question of why number 6 resigned.
Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1981 01:56:38-PST
From: ihnss!mhtsa!harpo!chico!esquire!nrh at Berkeley
Subject: Prisoner
In response to the spoiler about "The Prisoner":

There is indeed an episode in which the hero is tricked into finding
the scientist who did this mind-transference work.

I didn't see the "Secret Agent" episode you mention, though, so I
can't comment about the likelihood that this was "the matter of
principle", BUT (and this is sort of a spoiler) in the "Chimes of Big
Ben" episode of the Prisoner, the Agent starts to answer the question
of why he resigned as follows:

        "Because, for a very long time now...." (Interrupts himself
                                                at this point).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Dec  "JPM at MIT-AI"  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #129
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 3, 1981 2:56AM
From: JPM at MIT-AI (Jim McGrath)
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #129
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
          Darkover Concordance,  SF TV - Dr. Who & Prisoner,
                   Spoiler - The Adolescence of P1
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1981 15:32 PST
From: Marzullo at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Title and Author Query

I read a story (novelette? short?) a few years ago, and I cannot
remember the author nor the title.  Briefly, the story was about a
world whose inhabitants had descended from the same stock as humans
(some "seed culture", as I remember).  These folks, however, were much
more intelligent than us. In their society, all posts were filled by
random selection - a "draft". If a general was needed to quell a riot,
a head of state to be in a summit meeting or whatever, a person was
selected at random. This meant that the primary education had to
prepare one to do any job.

Any citizen could pass a law. If, however, after a period of time the
law was deemed "stupid" (by a simple majority, I believe), the law was
repealed. A few (two?) stupid laws, and the citizen was executed.

Anyone know this story?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1981 at 2322-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: The actual DARKOVER CONCORDANCE

^^^^^^^^^^ \IF/ YOU'RE ALREADY SOMETHING OF A Darkover FAN ^^^^^^^^^^

I put off buying the DARKOVER CONCORDANCE by Walter Breen until just
recently.  After all, ten bucks worth of reference material for a
single series seemed out of proportion.  Then, because of a bid to be
on a panel about languages in SF, I broke down and got it because the
series' fans make quite a thing about the serendipitous relationship
between Bradley's made-up words and real Spanish and Celtic.

Now, I wish I had not been such a pinch-penny all that time.  Having
the CONCORDANCE at hand while reading a new book in the series (or
re-reading an old one) \vastly/ enhances the enjoyment.  At today's
paperback prices, the CONCORDANCE doesn't run much more than 3 of the
books, and just sauntering thru it and browsing off on tangents from
time to time is equivalent to a couple of the books' worth of reading
in itself.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1981 00:18:47-PST
From: menlo70!hao!woods at Berkeley
Subject: Dr. Who on PBS

   Here in the Denver area, channel 6 (one of 2 local PBS affiliates)
runs Dr.Who for six consecutive episodes every Sunday morning

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1981 1816-PST
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Prisoner - spoiler (?)

It is my recollection that Number 6 NEVER actually said why he
resigned although several episodes came teasingly close to telling
why.  I think one of the major points of the show is that he resigned
for his own personal reasons and it was not anybody else's business
why he resigned.  I think that knowing the character of number 6, it
would certainly be reasonable to assume he resigned for a matter of
principle but it is vitally important to the premise that this matter
never be revealed to his captors, and the audience as well.  I also
think that the connection between "Secret Agent" and "The Prisoner" is
certainly intentional but not as direct as was implied in the original
message.

Be seeing you--
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 12/3/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses some
plot details of the novel The Adolescence of P1, by Thomas J. Ryan.
Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1981 1403-EST
From: DYER-BENNET
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

[A safe review, followed by a spoiler discussion, which I guess makes
this whole submission a spoiler]

The Adolescence of P1, by Thomas J. Ryan, published by Collier Books,
a division of MacMillan Publishing Co., New York, in 1977.

I'd like to introduce you to one of the stranger computer SF books
I've read.  For one thing, it's very explicitly about software rather
than about "computers" or hardware.  It's also really not very good as
literature.  I found it interesting because it presents more of the
feel of business computing and of hacking to a general audience than
any other such book I know of.

The Adolescence of P1 is an artificial intelligence story based on IBM
hardware. However, it is generally equipped with a (lousy) cover
showing a home computer of the Altair generation.

P1 is explicitly identified not as a \computer/ but as a \piece of
software/ which requires a computer to execute, use of memory, and so
forth.  I have the feeling that the author knew computers, at least
IBM.  The quality of the prose tends to support this view....

It is somewhat difficult for me to see exactly where this would fit
into hjjh's query, but I think it might, somewhere, so here goes...

Scope of the computer is continental to planetary (develops during
book [does this make this a spoiler?])  Computer is central feature of
book.

P1 is not a monolithic computer, so this is possibly not of use to
hjjh.  On the other hand, that appears to be a strange arbitrary
restriction.  Would "monolithic" machines whose internal architecture
was multi-micro-processor also be excluded?

P1 is not deliberately used for anything.  It is created for fun and
profit, then develops sentience.  It does take over many other
machines that are used for specific functions, including military.
Sigh, I guess I've definitely achieved spoilerhood now.  Oh well.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #130
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 4, 1981 4:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #130
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:
                     SF Books - Query Answered &
         Galactic Effectuator & Series (Darkover/Rim Worlds)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1981 15:24:08-PST
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: Here's the Title, or here are the titles

The stories about the humanoid civilization are R. A. Lafferty
stories, the civilization being that of the Camiroi. Their titles are
something on the order of "The Education of the Camiroi" and
"Government and Polity of the Camiroi" (the latter title being the
shakiest in memory). Both stories are in the collection *Nine Hundred
Grandmothers*, which contains excellent stories, not the least of
which are the Camiroi stories, the title story, and "Thus We Frustrate
Charlemagne." The collection has at least in the past been printed in
paperback.

The Camiroi in the readership have, I hope, read this with due
slowness.

                                        James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

[  Thanks also to Ralph Muha (muha at BBN-UNIX), Rich Zellich (Zellich
   at OFFICE-3), and Allan C. Wechsler (ACW at MIT-AI) for both
   answering this query (the literally correct titles of the stories
   in question being "Primary Education of the Camiroi" and "Polity
   and Custom of the Camiroi") and for highly recommending the
   stories in question.  Allan also volunteered the information that
   these stories were written in the form of field reports of terran
   sociologists visiting the planet (thus accounting for the form of
   the story titles).  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 03-Dec-1981
From: JOHN REDFORD at WAFER
Reply-to: "JOHN REDFORD at WAFER c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: "Galactic Effectuator" by Jack Vance

What a waste of Vance's talents.  You would think that an author who
is widely known for his exotic landscapes and colorful aliens would
know better than to fall into the "smeerp" trap.  That was James
Blish's term for a science fiction story that's a thinly disguised
mainstream piece.  Call a rabbit a smeerp, set the story on Mars, and
presto it's sf.
    What Vance has done here is to take an ordinary detective, here
called an effectuator, and set him in a galactic society.  In the
first novella he's hired to discover how a company is making cheap
micronics devices.  He goes off to a planet with extremely war-like
natives (say, North Africa) and finds that yes, by George, the natives
are building these gadgets in return for guns.  The only sf element is
the bizarre sexual practices of the natives.  After killing an enemy
they implant a larva in its body, which uses it for food.  War for
them is like a mass orgy.
     The second novella is about a brilliant but arrogant surgeon, and
is even more minor.  Ah for the days of "Green Magic" and "The Last
Castle", or even the "Planet of Adventure" series.  Vance's style is
often stilted, but he has rarely been this ordinary.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1981 0031-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS at MIT-AI>
Subject: "Darkover" for the novice

Can anyone suggest to me a good order to begin reading the Darkover
books in?  I've not read any of them.

Please reply to me, not SF-LOVERS; we don't need to start another long
flame on this subject!

                                        -- Roger

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1981 0341-PST
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Commodore Grimes

I have recently begun to read the several volumes by A. Bertram
Chandler in his series about Commodore John Grimes of the Rim Runners
Naval Reserve.  The problem I face is that, while most of the
important works in this series seem to have been collected in several
volumes, I have no hint of the chronology they follow!  Strictly
following the order they are published, or the order they appear in
this multi-volume series, simply does not work.  Any suggestions?  I
have a very loose list which I think is nearly correct, and would
welcome suggestions/comments on improving it.

 The Road to the Rim (Vol 1, 1967)
 The Hard Way Up (Vol 1)
 Spartan Planet (Vol 5, 1969)
 The Inheritors (Vol 2, 1972)
 The Rim of Space (Calver, not Grimes, 1958)
 Into the Alternate Universe (Vol 4, 1964)
 Contraband from Outer Space (Vol 4, 1967)
 Gateway to Never (Vol 2, 1972)
 The Rim Gods (Vol 3, 1968)
 The Commodore at Sea (Vol 5, 1971)
 The Ship from Outside (Calver, not Grimes, 1963)
 The Dark Dimensions (Vol 3, 1971)
Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #131
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, December 5, 1981 7:09PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #131
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 5 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - Series Query and Answer & Galactic Effectuator &
         Comics & Query Answered & Series (Amber/Rim Worlds),
                     SF Movies - Dr. Strangelove
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4-Dec-81 13:32:29 PST (Friday)
From: Redell at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Here's the plot, What's the title?
Reply-to: Redell@PARC-MAXC

Many years ago, I read a collection of short stories about the Time
Patrol, which I have never been able to track down since.

In these stories, time is a sort of branching river-bed, through which
a single stream of reality flows; the mission of the Time Patrol is to
insure that the river continues to follow the "right" course -- in
particular, the one leading to the evolution of the human species into
a more advanced race, a shadowy bunch called the "Danellians" (or
something like that), who were the ones who set up the Time Patrol in
the first place to safeguard their own future existence.

In one memorable episode, a bunch of Patrol members take a vacation at
the TP's R&R center (located somewhere in the scenic Upper-Devonian
period) and upon trying to return to the 20th century U.S., find North
America populated with people speaking a neo-Latin dialect and driving
steam cars with wooden wheels. They finally figure out that some
dastardly Time Pirate has interfered with a crucial battle in Roman
times, thus delaying the fall of the Roman Empire and totally wiping
out the "correct" future.  They hop on their trusty timecycles and
zoom back and intercept the guy, thus restoring the proper course of
events...but also wiping out the friends they had made in the
alternate future!

There were several other episodes, including one in which they somehow
interfered with the first Asians to cross the land-bridge across the
Bering Straits to North America.

Anybody recognize this one?  If so, please reply to me
(Redell@PARC-MAXC) rather than the whole distribution list.  Thanks.

[ The series you refer to is Poul Anderson's Time Patrol series.  A
  recent collection of stories in this series appeared as a "Jim Baen
  Presents" book under the title THE GUARDIANS OF TIME.  Both of the
  stories you referred to appear here (as "Delenda Est" and "The Only
  Game in Town" respectively).  The Complete Table of contents is:

        Time Patrol (Fantasy and Science Fiction, 1955)
        Brave to Be a King (Fantasy and Science Fiction, 1959)
        Gibraltar Falls (Fantasy and Science Fiction, 1975)
        The Only Game in Town (Fantasy and Science Fiction, 1960)
        Delenda Est (Fantasy and Science Fiction, 1955)
        Of Time and the Rover (by Sandra Miesel, 1981)

  An earlier edition of this book appeared without "Gibraltar Falls"
  or "Of Time and the Rover."  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1981 10:16-PST (Friday)
From: IngVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Galactic Effuctuator


        Actually I enjoyed it. But before you begin despairing that
Vance's writting has gone down hill, note that these stories were
written in the 60's (original title was 'The Many World of Magnus
Ridolph').

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1981 11:37 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Smokey Stover

Were the Smokey Stover comix ever reprinted, or available otherwise?
I wanted to show one to some apprentice Multician who wondered where
the ubiquitous "foo" came from.  Smokey's world wasn't exactly
fantasy, but it was more than a little skewed.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1981 00:12:33-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: Title query.

The story Marzullo at PARC-MAXC is thinking of is actually two shorts.
The first one was entitled "Primary Education of the Camiroi", and the
other was "<something else> of the Camiroi".  The stories were written
by R.A. Lafferty in the style (almost) of an anthropological field
report.  They were originally published in Galaxy around the middle
sixties. (Gee this brings back memories!)
        --berry

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1981 06:19-EST
From: Charles E. Haynes <CEH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Here's the title, you know the plot.

I believe the story referred to is "The polity and Custom of the
Camiroi" by R. A. Lafferty.  See also his "Primary education of the
Camiroi" both of which can be found in "900 Grandmothers".

Read it!
-- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1981 15:54:11-PST
From: ihuxl!jej at Berkeley
Subject: vague memories of stories

I'd like to apologize for not remembering titles and such accurately,
but my SF collection is in Oklahoma and I'm in Illinois...Sorry.

                                James Jones (ihuxl!jej)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1981 08:58 PST
From: STOGRYN.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Amber series

I would like to know the titles of the books in Zelazny's Amber series
and in what order they should be read. I'm sure that this has appeared
here before but I can't seem to find the copy I made of it. Forgive
me.

Thanks a quadrillion,
Steve

[ The Amber Series consists of the following titles, in both order of
  appearance and chronological order according to the series plot
  line: Nine Princes in Amber (1970), The Guns of Avalon (1972), Sign
  of the Unicorn (1975), The Hand of Oberon (1976), The Courts of
  Chaos (1977).  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1981 17:34:42-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Grimes chronology

   My first comment is that your chronology seems to leave out
everything written since ca. 1974 (don't have library with me, so
can't be certain).  All of the earlier books were written in no
particular order, since Chandler was working with a character and an
environment rather than a serial.
   I'm assuming you realize from ordering this many titles that there
are in fact two major periods in Grimes' life; he began working for
the federated (i.e., Earth-based) space navy and wound up on the rim
after the sort of episodes which landed many of Chandler's
contemporaries and immediate ancestors in Australia. SPARTAN PLANET
and TO PRIME THE PUMP are the only novels I can place offhand in the
earlier period.
   In the mid-70's Chandler decided to explain why Grimes moved to the
Rim; this became THE BIG BLACK MARK, which I think was the first book
of his brought out by DAW. The DAW first-publications since then are
strictly in chronological order, and I think they've suffered because
of it---basically Grimes lays hands on a willing wench (though in the
latest, ANARCH LORDS, she's not willing immediately) goes adventuring,
and comes back with more personal history but otherwise unaffected.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1981 1826-PST
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Grimes


True, The titles are all pre-1974.  I cannot seem to find paperbacks
with post 74 stories at my local favorite bookstore (Future Fantasy).
Any suggestions on either the chronology or additional titles?

Jim

PS Please direct replies to me directly, and I will send the summary
    to the digest proper.

[ Actually, you can send the material to SF LOVERS - I will simply
  forward it to my alter ego.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1981 03:20:23-PST
From: Cory.cc-43 at Berkeley
Subject: Dr. Strangelove

        As I remember, the Sterling Hayden role in Dr. Strangelove was
General Jack T. Ripper. He was the one responsible for starting the
whole mess.

                                Stewart Huckaby
                                Cory:cc-43

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #132
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, December 6, 1981 4:14AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Extra  V4 #132
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest Extra        Sun, 6 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:
                   Children's Books - Lost: A Moon,
            Children's TV - The Big World of Little Adam &
                   Super Six & Here Comes the Grump
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1981 17:50 PST
From: Kaehler at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Juvenile SF title found

Kenny Hirsh found the story about the intelligent computer in orbit
around Mars that kidnapped people from Earth.

        Date: 30 Nov 1981 15:38:28-PST
        From: chico!duke!unc!jh at Berkeley
        To: Kaehler@PARC-MAXC

        >From Kenny Hirsch (chico!duke!unc!jh@Berkeley (I think.) )
        Subject: Juvenile SF novel
        The book in question is \Lost: A Moon/ by Paul Capon.
        I picked up my copy from a library discard pile.

------------------------------

Date: 27 November 1981 0957-EST
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: BWoLA, the Super Six and number Six

The Big World of Little Adam was a series of shorts made in the early
and middle sixties about where technology was going to advance to,
mostly showing about advances into space (all those neat toys Jack
Kennedy would have liked... trips to Mars, space stations, deep sea
cities, etc.) Little Adam was a boy of 5-7, none too smart, who was
told about these things by his brainy older brother. At the end of
each short, Little Adam would want to hear about the next step forward
in whatever the topic was. His brother would reply:

         "That, Little Adam, is another story."

    This being the cue to come back tomorrow, or next week for another
episode.


Does anyone out there remember the Super Six? A bunch of superheroes
(late 60s) that were sent out by a crotchety Dispatcher? They
continuously sent out Super Boing, their foul up, as the other five
were out on important assignments.
Does anyone remember Depatie-Freleng's "Here Comes the Grump"?
Certainly the first Saturday AM fantasy cartoon I can remember (or at
least the first in a fantasy setting).

Gordan Hamachi: I believe John Drake is Number Six.  (I am number Two;
who is number one?)

Last night, I saw 1941 on HBO. I was greatly amused to find Slim
Pickens reading well, describing the objects in his pockets with the
same voice that he used to describe the objects in the SAC survival
kit in Dr. Strangelove.

                                                        Good
leftovers,
                                                        mitch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #133
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 8, 1981 12:20AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #133
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:
              FTP - Science Fiction Convention Calendar,
      SF Books - Bullard of the Space Patrol & Darkover Query &
         Series (Darkover),  Humor - Raiders of the Lost Ark,
                       SF Movies - Star Trek II
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7-Dec-81 00:00:00
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Subject: FTP - Science Fiction Convention Calendar

The latest version of the Science Fiction Convention Calendar is now
available for FTP'ing.  Everyone interested in reading this material
should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for
them.  If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and
we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy.

Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files
will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will also be
available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks go to Rich
Zellich for providing this material, and to Alyson L. Abramowitz,
Roger Duffey Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman, and Paul
Young for providing space for the materials on their systems.


   Site                 Filename

MIT-AI                  AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CONS
CMUA                    TEMP:CONS.TXT[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC (text)        [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Con-Cal
PARC-MAXC (press)       [Ibis]<Weissman>SFL>Con-Cal.press
SU-AI                   CONS.SFL[T,JPM]
MIT-Multics             >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>sf-calendar.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11          KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]CONS.TXT
DEC TOPS-20             KL2137::FTN20:<SF>CONS.TXT


[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1981 14:34 PST
From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Bullard of the Space Patrol

Has "Bullard of the Space Patrol" by ??? Jameson? ever appeared in
paperback?  I remember reading a copy years ago in the Huntington, NY
Library.  One of the spaceship backup communication systems was
speaking tubes...

        -Larry

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 1981 1701-EST
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-20C>
Subject: Another Darkover Book?


        Wasn't there another (loosely ?) Darkover book with a title
like "Falcons of Narabedla"? I remember the book as being by MZB, and
hazy memory places in a far FAR future Darkover (sort of).


                                                        Gene

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1981 (Friday) 1518-EDT
From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (William Sharer)
Subject: Darkover Chronology

        Can someone set up a file for FTPing containing the
recommended order for reading the Darkover series?

mr bill

[ The Darkover series, in chronological order as listed in the
  DARKOVER CONCORDANCE is as follows (where the dates are
  written/published) with additional contributions by Chip
  (csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX, volume 4, issue 128) for those works
  published after the Concordance.

  Darkover Landing (72,72)
  Stormqueen! (78,78)
  Two to Conquer (Chip)
  The Spell Sword (73,74)
  The Forbidden Tower (76.77)
  The Shattered Chain (75-76,76) (events here take place at the same
                                  time as in the previous two novels)
  Star of Danger (64,65)
  Bloody Sun (63,64)
  The Winds of Darkover (70,70)
  Heritage of Hastur (74,75)
  Sharra's Exile (Chip)
  The Sword of Aldones (47-48,62) (these two works are difficult to
  The Planet Savers (59,62)        order due to some inconsistencies)
  The World Wreckers (71,71)

  The major difference between the above and the lists submitted by
  Chip and Steve (ZEVE@RUTGERS, volume 4, issue 127) is the position
  of the novel The Winds of Darkover.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 1981 12:47 EST
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Forgetten but not gone

Howe about the movie about the icthyologists who developed a device to
help lost fish:

         Radars of the Lost Shark

AMB

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 1981 1539-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-AI>
Subject: Winfield singed for Star Trek II

        HOLLYWOOD (AP) - Paul Winfield has signed for a starring
        role in Paramount Pictures' ''Star Trek II'' as a
        starfleet commander on a top-secret exploratory mission.


I believe Winfield portrayed Martin Luther King in the excellent TV
docu-drama about the civil rights leader.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #134
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 11, 1981 2:30AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #134
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:
                     SF Fandom - Windycon Party,
         SF Books - One Tree & Falcons of Narabedla & Comics,
                      SF Music - Filksong Query
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffrey R. Del Papa <DP@MIT-ML> (Sent by DP)
Date: 12/10/81 12:56:28
Subject: Windycon Party.

      The party will occur in my room, on saturday night, starting at
    22-23, ending whenever.  During the day, I should be findable at
    my table in the hucksters room. If not, I will be off measuring
    the hotel for chicon.  I will set out the usual notes as to exact
    time and room number in some obvious place. Volunteers (especially
    locals with cars) for the munchie run, would be much appreciated.
    I will not have a car, and don't know my way around the city at
    all.

                                        See you there,
                                        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 8 December 1981 09:08-PST (Tuesday)
From: IngVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: One Tree


        I have known about this for a month, but forgot to send it in.
'The One Tree' by Donaldson is due out in April of 1982 from Del Rey
Books.

                        Joe

P.S. Underwood Miller has just published 'Gilden Fire', a previously
     unpublished story of the 'Illearth War'.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1981 12:20:32-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: FALCONS OF NARABEDLA

   Was claimed as a Darkover novel by Ace, which published it; in
fact, it merely borrowed a couple of elements and was borrowed from in
turn.  (MZB does this all the time---there's a juvenile, THE COLORS OF
SPACE (?), which makes a passing reference to Cottman IV without any
indication that it's special).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1981 10:45 PST
From: Coleman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Falcons of Narabedla

Although I am not certain of the title, I do remember reading that
Falcons of Narabedla was one of the very first books that MZB got
published.  It was another of the books that she prefaces with "sorry
if the story line and characterization aren't too clean, I was only a
kid..."  The book was only vaguely connected with Darkover, I believe
that it was explained as an "alternate universe" book.
                Michele

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 1981 0357-EST
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Smokey Stover and other old comics

There are several Smokey Stover sequences in the Smithsonian
Collection of Newspaper Comics.  This anthology has quite a few of the
older strips, and some of the current ones as well.  You can order it
from the Smithsonian, or probably find it in a local library.  (I
happen to know that the library at the "Museum of our National
Heritage" in Lexington has a copy if you can't find it closer.)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1981 at 2344-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: story to fit filk

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ HERE'S THE PLOT... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Isn't there a story somewhere in which the girl, over the protests of
her family-- or at least her father-- marries an alien who's vegetable
or at least vegetable-like?  I'm looking for such a story to attach an
amusing filk song by Cynthia McQuillan to...

GREEN PASSIONS (from Crystal Singer)

Tall and green I saw him standing there
With his feet planted firmly in the ground.
His eyes protruding like antlers,
He was tall, and green, and round

   "Why, oh why," cried my mother dear,
   "Must you love a plant?
   It will surely upset your brother dear,
   And greatly embarrass your aunt."

Can't they see why I love him so?
He's not cruel, carnivorous or crass.
My family thinks that I'm a fool
To love an asparagras.

   My father says, "How's his bank account?
   What kind of living can he earn?
   What will you do till he's-- "out of school"?
   What kind of trade can he learn?"

REPEAT 1st verse

Could the story I vaguely recall be "On Mars Have We Got a Rabbi!"
perhaps by Asimov?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #135
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, December 13, 1981 4:11PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #135
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:
         SF Books - Query Answered & Macrolife & Diane Duane,
                       Random Topics - Rollover
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 December 1981 01:03-EST
From: Daniel Breslau <BRESLA at MIT-AI>

The story about the girl marrying the plant, was 'On Venus, Have We
Got A Rabbi', by William Tenn (another pseudonym...).  I don't have a
copy with me, but I'm reasonably sure (he said hesitantly) that's the
one.  It's in "Wandering Stars", the anthology of Jewish SF.
    See you at Windycon.
         Dan Breslau

------------------------------

Date: 12 December 1981 22:34 est
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Book Review: Macrolife

 Macrolife, by George Zebrowski. 284 pages Avon. Sept 1981 $3.95

Macrolife is to intelligent beings what those beings are to their
component cells.  The city-state is primitive macro life, but its
cells are too loosely coupled.

Zebrowskis book is divided into three sections.  In the first, a
nuclear war destroys life on Earth, leaving only a few space colonies
to carry on.  A few dreamers have already proposed that space based
life is a new step up, but now the colonies are all that is left.  The
next section, set around 3000 AD, follows the first Macrolife, first
near a world whose technological civilization has fallen, and then
back to the Earth, and finally to a first encounter with alien
civilizations.  By the final section macrolife is a galaxy spanning
network of consciousness - human, alien, and artificial intelligences
all linked, as they face the approaching heat death of the universe,
and attempt to survive.

The book is disappointing.  How could it not be, with so large a scope
and so much to tell?  It's too talky - the characters are always
lecturing each other on the philosophy of Macrolife.  The book is like
a utopian novel in that regard.  To be sure, most of the inhabitants
regard Macrolife as the only life.  They have quite a scorn for
planetary society.  For another, none of the ideas seem developed.  I
think there's just too much happening here.  There's mental links
between humans and AIs, a massive data bank recording every worthwhile
thought or comment by any Macro-citizen.  There's a political system
that somehow provides safe outlets for aggression.  There's near
immortality.  In the second section we follow one John Bulero, clone
of an early Macrolifer, growing up in a society that includes
near-telepaths, genetically improved individuals, people with AI links
- an incredible diversity of types.  Bulero, though, is genetically
still a 20th century man.  But we just get hints of his reactions.

I think the book is on the borderline of worthy reading.  It has a lot
of good ideas in it.  If you like it, you should be sure to read the
James Blish series (four novels) Cities in Flight.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1981 13:56:00-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Diane Duane

Has a sequel to her "Door into Shadow" ever appeared?

------------------------------

From: RP@MIT-MC
Date: 12/13/81 10:49:56
Subject: Rollover

Rollover: A combination of The Magnetic Monster and When Worlds
Collide

See Jane F.             moan at least 6 times in her megabuck gowns!
See Hume C.             and his liverspots!
See Kris K.             unlock the secret of the money monster by
                        guessing the password in a secure system in
                        real time!
See Kris K.             show us the password = *******
                        (or is it 8*'s)!
See Jane F. and Kris K. start a new world after the old one is
                        destroyed!
See Harrison F.         in the previews of Blade Runner (looks like
                        another winner) and walk out at the start of
                        Rollover else rollover and go to sleep!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #136
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1981 6:15AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #136
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:
                SF Books - Query Answered & Cyber SF,
    SF Movies - The Magnetic Monster,  SF Topics - Hackers in SF &
              Historical Accuracy in SF (L. Neil Smith),
                        Spoiler - Time Bandits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1981 2
From: decvax!duke!unc!leyevin
Subject: Query Reply

I don't know the story you're looking for, but the one you mentioned
is really "On Venus Have We Got a Rabbi", and I think it's by William
Tenn; it's certainly not by Asimov.  As I recall, it concerns a group
of non-humanoid aliens who claim to be Jewish by virtue of direct
descent from some colonists from New Jersey.  The story is certainly
enjoyable by anyone, but those with a strong grounding in recent
Jewish history will find some parts especially funny ("If the Messiah
comes, and finds all the Jews already on Earth, what will he do" -- a
reference to the argument used by some ultra-orthodox Jews against
Zionism).  I'm pretty sure the story was in "Wandering Stars", the
anthology of Jewish-related science fiction discussed here some months
back.  I'd supply more details, but my copy seems to have Gone
somewhere.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1981 at 0155-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Cyber SF

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF: Humanoid Robots ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Humanoid-shaped robots have cropped up in our study of SF \books/ far
less often than we expected.  (Sometimes they have been referred to as
"androids" by their authors, but if the device was essentially
metal/mechanical rather than protoplasmic, we counted it as one of
"ours".)

How do we define "humanoid"?  Well, not necessarily as human-like as
C-3PO, but having at least a head, torso, 2 arms, and 2 legs, in the
usual places.  R2-D2, for a counter example, is in a different
category (semi-humanoid); he lacks head/torso distinction, his arms
are too differently placed, and he has 3 legs.

Here are what we have so far.
DISTINCTLY GENRE-SF BOOKS (non-media-related novels or single-author
collections focused on 'cybernetic' devices) with fairly or very
prominent humanoid robots we have found are--

    Asimov, I.,  CAVES OF STEEL <R Daneel Ovilaw>
    Asimov, I.,  NAKED SUN <R Daneel Ovilaw>
    Asimov, I.,  I, ROBOT
    Asimov, I.,  REST OF THE ROBOTS
    Avery, R.,  DEATHWORMS OF KRATOS <Matthew, etc.>
    Avery, R.,  RINGS OF TANTALUS <Matthew, etc.>
    Avery, R.,  VENOM OF ARGUS <Matthew, etc.>
    Avery, R.,  WARGAMES OF ZELOS <Matthew, etc.>
    Binder, E.,  ADAM LINK -- ROBOT  <Adam Link>
    Chandler, A.B.,  RENDEZVOUS ON A LOST WORLD <Veronica, etc.>
    Dick, P.K.,  DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?
    Dick, P.K.,  PENTULTIMATE TRUTH
    Dick, P.K.,  SIMULACRA
    Elliott, B.,  RIVET IN GRANDFATHER'S NECK <Grandfather>
    Goulart, Ron,  CLOCKWORK'S PIRATES
    Goulart, Ron,  WICKED CYBORG <Electro>
    Goulart, Ron,  WILDSMITH <Alex Wildsmith>
    Hamilton, E.,  "Capt. Future" series <Crag, (Otho?)>
    Janifer, L.,  SURVIVOR <Totum>
    Jeppson, J.O.,  LAST IMMORTAL
    Leiber, F.,  SILVER EGGHEADS <Miss Blushes, Zane Gort>
    Russell, E.F.,  MEN, MARTIANS, AND MACHINES  <Jay Score>
    Saberhagen, F.,  BERSERKER'S PLANET <Thorun, Mjollnir>
    Saberhagen, F.,  BROTHER ASSASSIN (monk)
    Saberhagen, F.,  ULTIMATE ENEMY
    Simak, C.,  CITY  <Jenkins>
    Simak, C.,  COSMIC ENGINEERS <1824>


GENRE SF BOOKS we know of with merely incidental humanoid robots--

    Dick, P.K.,  THREE STIGMATA OF PALMER ELDRITCH
    Goulart, Ron,  AFTER THINGS FELL APART
    Goulart, Ron,  FLUX <Nutzenbolts, 26X>
    Goulart, Ron,  HAIL HIBBLER
    Goulart, Ron,  HELLO, LEMURIA, HELLO
    Goulart, Ron,  NEMO
    Goulart, Ron,  PANCHRONICON PLOT
    Goulart, Ron,  SPACEHAWK, INC.
    Goulart, Ron,  STARHAWKS: EMPIRE 99
    Goulart, Ron,  A TALENT FOR THE INVISIBLE
    Goulart, Ron,  A WHIFF OF MADNESS
    Kyle, D.A.,  DRAGON LENSMAN
    Lundwall, Sam,  BERNHARD THE CONQUERER <Daphnis>
    Norton, A.,  LAST PLANET/
    Saberhagen, F.,  BERSERKER
    Saberhagen, F.,  VEILS OF AZLEROC


MEDIA-RELATED BOOKS with humanoid robots--

    Bova & Lucas,  THX1138
    Crichton, M.,  WESTWORLD
    Fontana, D.C.,  QUESTOR TAPES
    Larson, et al.,  "Battlestar Galactica" series <Cylons>
    Lucas, et al.,  "Star Wars" novelizations <C-3PO>
    Hall, J.R.,  FUTUREWORLD

We have also listed a few JUVENILES with humanoid robots, but only
incidentally.  (We count "juveniles" like Norton's or Heinlein's as
fully genre SF if they get mass-market paperback distribution.)

    Baum, F.,  OZMA OF OZ <Tic-Toc>
    Baum, F.,  TIC-TOC OF OZ <Tic-Toc>
    Del Rey, L.,  RUNAWAY ROBOT
    Key, A.,  SPROCKETS <Sprockets>
    Key, A.,  SPROCKETS AND RIVETS <Sprockets, etc.>


Then there are a couple of titles we've heard had such robots, but
otherwise know little or nothing about.

    Bunch, D.R.,  MODERAN
    Harrison, M.J.,  PASTEL CITY


And finally, there is Asimov's BICENTENNIAL MAN & OTHER STORIES which
doesn't quite fit our specifications for "single author collections
focused on 'cybernetic' devices", but hasn't been totally withdrawn
from consideration.

If you know of others, or can supply some names, or see errors, do
please let us know.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1981 10:14 EST
From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: The Magnetic Monster

Now *that* was a movie.  I remember seeing it when I was about seven
and, as Count Floyd would say "Boy, dat vas scary, eh kids?".
Unfortunately, about all I remember is that the monster was carried
around in a steel (Pb?) cylinder.  At one point the hero was
withdrawing some sort of control rod impressively labelled "DANGER" in
an attempt to destroy the monster and there were lots of sparks and
such.

No doubt it would be amusing to see it again, but it seems to have
dropped off the late night movie circuit.  (Was it that bad?)  Does
anyone remember what it was really about?

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: 15 December 1981 2:04-EST
Subject: hackers

There have been discussions about computers and computer networks in
sf-lovers lately, but what about hackers (we call them hacks here at
Waterloo)?  Are there any hacks in SF?  If not hacks, at least
characters who embody the sort of character one associates with them.
I have not seen any actual hackers; the closest I have seen in
attitude is Holrun in Zelazny's \The Changing Land/.  Anybody else?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1981 2350-CST
From: LRC.HJJH at UTEXAS-20
Subject: L. Neil Smith as a Historian

^^^^^^^^^^^ HOW RELIABLE IS L. NEIL SMITH AS A HISTORIAN? ^^^^^^^^^^^

Tho not to the extent that SF's old-time-Eugene-V-Debs-style Socialist
Mack Reynolds does, Libertarian Neil Smith incorporates what appears
to be real history as well as fictional future-history into his books.
Reynolds seems to be pretty reliable in the often surprising oddments
he tosses into the pot, but what about Smith?

Sometimes I recognize hyperbole to emphasize a point, as in:

   "England has very little crime; guns are strictly forbidden.
    But Switzerland has even less, and \by law/, everybody's
    armed to the teeth.  Somebody said it once: guns cause crime
    like flies cause garbage."  p. 115

Well guns AREN'T strictly forbidden in Britain, tho HANDguns may be,
or how could the gentry have all those grouse shoots and the like.
Nor are the adult MALE citizens "everybody" in Switzerland!  (By the
way, did Swiss women ever get the right to vote yet?)

[ Yes, Swiss women have had the right to vote since at least the
  early 1970's.  -- Jim ]

But it was a section in PROBABILITY BROACH which particularly caught
my attention.  I can see all kinds of impact lessening ramifications
behind the facts, but are the FACTS accurate in--

   "Of 74 delegates chosen to attend the [American] Constitutional
    Convention, 19 \declined/, and 16 of those present refused to
    sign.  Of the 34 remaining, many of whom signed only reluctantly,
    just 6 had put their names to the original Declaration of Inde-
    pendence.  By contrast, that agreement had been \unanimous/, and
    most of its 56 signers actively opposed the Federalist Constitu-
    tion."  p. 82.

[ Obviously the bare numbers are not quite correct (they do not add
  up properly), but roughly those number of people did (or did not) do
  those things.  However, this quote is a bit shaded (for instance,
  those 19 who declined to attend mainly did so at the request of
  their state governments).  There were quite a number of differences
  between the two documents - the Declaration was a simple document
  put together under the real pressure of British arms, while the
  Constitution was a far more complicated document that was drawn up
  under pressure from various state governments.  It should come as
  no real shock to people to that the bodies which drew up these very
  different documents, for very different sets of people, with 11
  years separating them, were themselves very different.  Remember
  that facts - even when correct - can still distort the truth by
  omission as much as comission.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 12/15/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses some
scenes in the movie Time Bandit.  Some readers may not wish to read
on.

------------------------------

Date: 14 December 1981 21:08 est
From: Walters.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: Time Bandits (spoiler)

In back issues of SF-LOVERS (#107 to #117), there are several comments
on the elements in the main character's "normal" life which reappear
during his travels. One which I particularly enjoyed, and haven't seen
mentioned, was the plastic wrappers the servants in the dark castle
were wearing which made them look like the furniture in his parent's
living room. Did anyone notice any other evil features in the dark
castle which were reflections of the parents' life?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #137
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1981 7:57PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #137
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Dec 1981    Volume 4 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:
                   SF Magazines - Lucas Interview,
     SF Books - The Dark is Rising,  SF Music - Star Wars theme,
            SF Topics - Fantasy Invasion & Hackers in SF,
  SF Movies - The Magnetic Monster,  Spoiler - The Magnetic Monster
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 December 1981 11:15 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Lucas Interview

A not particularly enlightening interview with George Lucas appears in
the current Republic Airlines inflight mag.  These things are passed
out as promos and a telephone call will usually get one mailed to you.
The article is not particularly worth seeking out unless you are a
Lucas fan seeking closure.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1981 at 1843-CST
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MISCELLANAEA #1 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Since there currently seems to be a lull in SF-L activity, maybe I can
catch up on a backlog of items I've been hankering to respond to.

Way back in SFL 4:90 Chris at RAND-UNIX discussed Susan Cooper's
quasi-Arthurian fantasy series and mentioned liking the 2nd, THE DARK
IS RISING, best.  So do I, and it seems the one book in the series
which best depicts the psychology of the lead character who is at once
a normal little boy and one of the High Mages.  How CAN one be BOTH
(and be a believable character), how does it affect what one thinks
and does?  Cooper's account gives a glimpse into what it might have
been for that even greater psychological puzzle of a boy 2,000 years
ago.

---

In 4:103 Chip and some others were discussing similarities in some SF
music.  Perhaps one of them could explain why the STAR WARS main theme
was so reminiscent of "Born Free"?

---

In 4:104 E.effec at Berkeley launched a diatribe against "fantasy type
books invading the realm of science fiction" (and oddly enough Norman
Spinrad did the same in his column in the issue of LOCUS that came out
about the same time).  I expected it to spark off a raging discussion
on SF-L, but it elicited nary a whisper.  So here I am to say I, at
least, disagree.  And that even when it favors the kind of stuff I
like, I don't want any restrictions put on Speculative Fiction's
reflecting the current tastes of its devotees.

While I, too, prefer stories with a scientific, or even convincing
pseudo-scientific basis, to most fantasy, that's a personal prefer-
ence which I'll express at the bookstore.  Other people are express-
ing THEIR preferences at those bookstores, and it ill behooves either
E.jeffc or myself to insist that OUR taste should be dominant.

---

Looking back over this last 6 weeks or so worth of SF-L issues, one
cannot help being struck by the redundancy of answers to queries.  Be
brave, O Moderator!  Most of us are too far away to jump down your
throat and stomp your guts out because OUR answer didn't get in.
Choose the first or the best answer and leave the others on the
proverbial cutting room floor instead of cluttering up SF-L.

[ Unless there are objections from the peanut gallery, it shall be
  so ordained by the powers.  I will henceforth attempt to follow
  the format used in Volume 4, Issue 130, relating to the Query about
  the Camiroi.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1981 16:38 PST
From: Woods at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Hackers in SF [V4 #136]

In reply to <X>'s query in SFL v4 #136 (the sender's name seems not to
have made it into that digest), one hacker immediately comes to mind:
The hero of Brunner's "Shockwave Rider".

        -- Don.

[ The original message did not contain FROM information since none was
  sent by the originator.  Please folks, do NOT delete these fields on
  your own (and try to include personal names, as well as accounts,
  whenever possible).  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

JPM@MIT-AI 12/16/81 00:00:00 Re:  SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following message is the last in the digest.  It discusses the
movie The Magnetic Monster in some detail.  Some readers may not wish
to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 15 December 1981 1215-PST (Tuesday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: The Magnetic Monster

OK Kids, THAT *is* a good one!  A research scientist develops some
kind of strange new radioisotope, and carries it away from his lab in
a little cylinder hidden in his suitcase.  Unfortunately, this gem has
the property of increasing its size and releasing a blast of energy
every (fixed) number of hours.  It grows in exponential series.

When our scientist-heros find the missing scientist, he has already
been killed by the radiation overdose he received while creating the
beastie.  Oh yeah -- I forgot -- this "monster" also has sudden
periods of high magnetic flux -- magnetizing all ferrous metal in the
vicinity.

Well, so they've got the cylinder, but what are they going to do with
it?  They manage to keep it bottled up in government facilities
through the next couple of growth explosions without too much trouble,
but they calculate that within a few cycles (exponential, remember?)
that thing is going to start destroying areas like cities, continents
and planets.

They establish that pumping massive amounts of energy INTO the isotope
might stop it.  I believe they manage to prevent at least one growth
cycle that way, but the amount of energy required to hold it back
grows very fast, and soon there isn't any way to stop it any longer.
They then rush the thing to an island off Britain (or something like
that) where the British has an experimental accelerator device called
the "Deltatron".  This device, pushed past its design limits, would
have JUST BARELY ENOUGH energy to kill the thing once and for all
(theoretically).  If it doesn't work, nothing on Earth will be able to
stop the next cycle -- this is the last chance.  The scientist in
charge of the Deltratron is a fanatic who tries to stop our heros from
killing the isotope when he learns that they plan to destroy the
Deltatron by pushing it past design limitations.  He attempts to stop
them, there is a big fight and lots of "drama" when he traps the
scientists on the WRONG side of the laboratory crash doors (actually,
he manages to break the cables that move the doors, so they have no
way to get to safety before the Deltatron explodes.)  They manage to
get the doors closed anyway, and leave the Deltatron's "mother"
laughing hysterically amid some very nice special effects as the
Deltatron heads toward its end.

The final scene:  The scientists are behind the crash doors, waiting
for the explosion.  It finally comes, and the ocean rushes into the
lab from above the island.  There is utter silence, and they think
they might have succeeded.  But suddenly, all the metal objects in the
room with them fly against the steel crash doors.  This is very bad
news, since the magnetic effect means the element is still alive.
They have failed.  Miserable, they turn away to leave, when suddenly,
all the objects, one by one, drop OFF the door.  The element has died
-- the world (and maybe the universe?) is saved.

Actually, this is not at all a bad flick.  Some of the science is
pretty strange, but still, it's better than The Creeping Terror.

--Lauren--
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #138
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1981 5:27PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #138
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:
                  SF Books - Fuzzy Bones & Cyber SF,
        SF Topics - Hackers in SF,  Random Topics - Rollover,
                   SF Movies - The Magnetic Monster
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1981 0014-CST
From: LRC.HJJH at UTEXAS-20

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ FUZZY BONES by William Tuning ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's somehow sorta like a combination of FUZZY SAPIENS (aka THE OTHER
HUMAN RACE) and a not-so-talky INHERIT THE STARS.

If you regarded LITTLE FUZZY as a diamond of the first water, and
FUZZY SAPIENS as "still a diamond, but--", then this is a fine zircon.
That is, a competent and dedicated attempt at continuation of an-
other author's work, and, for the dedicated Fuzzy fan, better than
having NO more Fuzzy stories at all.

There don't seem to be any \particular/ outstanding flaws, tho I did
miss having the Fuzzies at center-stage as much as I'd've liked, and,
unlike in Piper's books (at least, as I recall them), the villain is
unmitigatedly nasty.

There are at least 2 obvious strings left hanging, onto which further
additions to the series can be tied.

MINI-REV: Quite okay if you don't expect vintage H. Beam Piper.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1981 09:20 PST
From: Pugh.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Cyber SF

A robot fiction entry you might wish to include is Stanislaw Lem's
Mortal Engines (translated with an introduction by Michael Kandel) by
Seabury Press, New York, 1977.  Include 14 short-short stories 11 of
which were previously printed as "Fables for Robots" in The Cyberiad,
1972 (all translated works).  Most of the stories are told from the
robot's point of view (sort of like yarns passed on from generation to
generation).  Enjoy!

/Eric

------------------------------
Date: 16 December 1981 0849-EST
From: Mitchell Schwartz at CMU-10A
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #136

Just a couple things:

   Books with humanoid robots:
       Grant, Charles: Ascension <the old retainers, others>
       Grant, Charles: Legion <the old retainer, others>

   there are apparently other books in this series I haven't read.


   Books with hackers:
       The Adolescence of P-1

   Shame on you from Waterloo. P-1 takes place up there, partly.

                                                mitch

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 81 19:55:09-EST (Tue)
From: Sue Pohl <sue@BRL>
Subject: Rollover

        I enjoyed reading your recent critique of the movie
"Rollover".  However, I do disagree with respect to its major faults,
which did not consist primarily of Jane F. moaning a respectable and
expected amount of times.  Technically, the film had problems in that
the panning was consistently executed too quickly, the editing was
quite choppy, and the script presupposed that the audience would aport
some inate knowledge about the internal functioning of the money
market.  This last flaw was perhaps the most serious, since without an
inkling, understanding, or even an interest in how the money or stock
markets (they do have a lot in common) function, the viewer was
somewhat afloat amidst a thus hard to follow story.  Personally I
enjoyed it, but probably that was because I have the necessary
background to fill in the holes the script left one with (not the plot
ones, but the explanatory ones...).
                                Sue

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1981 19:19:49-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #136

"The Magnetic Monster" as I remember was an awful film about a (man
made?)  mineral which absorbed energy and grew accordingly.  I think
they took it to a "Betatron" in Canada somewhere and overfed it (Nukes
conquer all!)  Mostly, however, they sat around and scratched their
collective heads over the growing mineral.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1981 14:04:29 EST (Wednesday)
From: Mark Levine <yba at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #137

Re: The Magnetic Monster

This film is 20-30 yrs old.  A spoiler warning?  Loved it as a kid,
you'll love it as an ancient.

[ Since the digest has a rather broad distribution and readership,
  Spoiler warnings are always issued whenever any discussion takes
  place with respect to plot details.  Many people do ignore these
  warnings, but they are intended as a service for others who want
  them - who do appear to constitute at least a significant minority
  of the readership.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #139
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, December 19, 1981 7:03AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #139
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 19 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:
              SF Books - Tiptree & Varley & Title Query,
    SF Topics - What If Books & Fantasy Invasion & Hackers in SF,
        SF Movies - The Magnetic Monster,  SF Radio - Reading
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 81 0:04-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Tiptree & Varley

James Tiptree, Jr. (Alice B. Sheldon) has a new collection out called
OUT OF THE EVERYWHERE AND OTHER EXTRAORDINARY VISIONS.  Excellent as
usual. However not all of the stuff is recent.

Additionally, I'll mention that I have two favorite SF authors: John
Varley and Tiptree. And only for their shorter works. Varley's longer
stuff has not impressed me at all (except for THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE
which was pretty good and introduced his universe), and Tiptree has
only done one longer work, called UP THE WALLS OF THE WORLD, which was
ok.

Tiptree demands more of her readers than Varley and likes to make the
plot/characters purposely enigmatic, whereas Varley tends to prefer
pastoral stories in a highly technophilic future; however, there are
many similarities in their writing style and I feel that they are
easily among the top 5 most talented authors in the field.

Here is what they have in print in approximate order of publication:

  Varley
    THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE (novel)
    THE PERSISTENCE OF MEMORY (story collection)
        also published as IN THE HALLS OF THE MARTIAN KINGS
    TITAN (part one of trilogy)
    WIZARD (part two of trilogy)
    THE BARBIE MURDERS (story collection)
    DEMON (part three of trilogy, not yet published)

  Tiptree
    10,000 LIGHT YEARS FROM HOME (story collection)
    WARM WORLDS AND OTHERWISE (story collection)
    UP THE WALLS OF THE WORLD (novel)
    STAR SONGS OF AN OLD PRIMATE (story collection)
    OUT OF THE EVERYWHERE...  (story collection)

I recommend these two authors to anyone who wants superior fiction in
addition to SF ideas. So often, I've found that SF readers are more
concerned with ideas than writing style/ability, and they put up with
a lot of crappy writing just to find a few neat ideas. I've had to
search a long time to find these two authors who have both excellent
ideas and excellent style.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1981 15:44:52-CST
From: doug at uwisc
Subject: sf titles query

                Titles Query:

Can anybody recommend books or short stories in the category of "what
if" sf?  I mean books in the genre of "Man in the High Castle" or "And
Having Writ" (though people may not consider them in the same genre).
I'm trying to collect titles in this domain of sf, but am not having
much success.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 81 1:17-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: "What if..."

Sounds like you're interested in alternate-worlds books. I strongly
suggest that you get a copy of Nicholl's The Science Fiction
Encyclopedia if you don't already have one. There's a large section
devoted to the alternate- worlds concept.

The book is really well done and I recommend it to anyone remotely
interested in SF, SF concepts, authors, media, etc. I'm looking
forward to future editions.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1981 19:41:02-CST
From: doug at uwisc
Subject: "What if..."

thank your for your suggestion regarding The Science Fiction
Encyclopedia - I haven't seen it before, but will certainly get a
copy.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1981 0016-EST
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: re hjjh's comments on SF and F

While I agree with HJJH that speculative fiction should be allowed to
exist in all forms, including fantasy, I'm really tired of going
through SF sections that are labeled "SCIENCE FICTION" and finding a
large portion of the literature to be fantasy.  I'm a whole hearted
subscriber to the notion that F and SF should be shelved separately.

  -jim
------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1981 1829-PST
Subject: Hackers
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

        This is a bit like calling Beethoven a tunesmith, but the hero
in \Web of Angels/ (that's not the only book I've read) is a
super-hacker.

------------------------------

Date: 17 December 1981 2035-EST (Thursday)
From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A
Subject: The Magnetic Monster

This film came out around 1952.  The movie looks extremely
cheap until the very end where the Betatron is shown.
The reason the budget of the scenes seems to increase suddenly
is that the Betatron scenes were ripped off from Fritz Lang's
film "Gold" (1929) where is was a transmutation device.  The
stock footage was interspliced with shots of Carlson at the
controls.

BTW, Gold was made after "Metropolis" (1926?) but was not
nearly as successful even though far more money was pumped
in to it.

        Lee

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1981 1020-PST
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Re: The Magnetic Monster

Gee, Uncle Lauren, when do we get to hear about The Creeping Terror?
Mom says we can stay up and I promise I wont get scared and
you're not tired and it's only 8 o'clock and I'll even ask
Dad and Oh Plleeeeaaaasssssseeeeeee????
jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 15 Dec 1981 23:02-PST
Subject: George R.R. Martin Short Story to be Read Over
Subject: Southern-California Radio
From: nomdenet at RAND-UNIX


   A reading of a short story by George R.R. Martin will be broadcast
this Friday evening, December 18, at 11 p.m. over KPFK, 90.7 FM, as
part of "Hour 25," Mike Hodel's weekly two-hour science-fiction
program.  The story is "Meathouse Man;" the reader is Roger Steffens,
a veteran actor who has two weekly music programs over KCRW, a college
station in Santa Monica.  KPFK is a non-commercial station.
   I produced, engineered, and edited the reading.


                                               A. R. White
                                               (I'm not on the list.)


[ Unfortunately the above announcement, although mailed on the 15th
  of December, was not received until 18-Dec-81 at 1648-PST.  Thus
  it could not be distributed quite in time for the announcement to
  have the desired effect.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #140
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, December 21, 1981 10:21PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #140
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Dec 1981     Volume 4 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:
                SF Books - The Persistence of Vision,
        SF Movies - War of the Worlds & When Worlds Collide &
                 Bedtime Stories & Sharkey's Machine,
       SF Lovers - CA license plate,  SF Topics - What If Books
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1981 1828-PST
From: Mclure at SRI-AI
Subject: correction

Good grief. The name of the Varley book is THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION,
not THE PERSISTENCE OF MEMORY. I had watched the first few minutes of
a COSMOS that evening which had the latter title.  I guess my memory
isn't very persistent.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1981 0430-PST
Subject: SF Flics (DC area)
From: ADPSC (Don)

The Circle Theater will be playing "War of the Worlds" and "When
Worlds Collide" on 12/22 and 12/23.  Check the Post for times.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 20 December 1981 1528-PST (Sunday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Bedtime Stories

Well children, if you're all *really* good and promise to eat *all*
your oatmeal *and* read *all* your digests, I might be willing to tell
you the story of "The Creeping Terror" and *even* "Plan Nine From
Outer Space".  Perhaps "Flesh Gordon" as well.  But only if you're
real good -- and remember that Santa reads this digest.

Uncle --Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1981 0931-EST
From: G.PALEVICH at MIT-EECS
Subject: Sharkey's Machine

        The new Burt Reynolds movie, "Sharkey's Machine" has a scene
where data about a crook is obtained from some police database.  You
should carefully look at the back-lighted computer terminal; it's an
Apple ][!

        (You can even see the right square bracket prompt & flashing
cursor which means they used BASIC to generate this particular special
effect.)

        I've seen TRS-80's in two other films -- one a made for TV
superhero adventure (where about twenty Tandy's masqueraded as Houston
Mission Control) and the other as a credit database terminal in a love
story.

------------------------------

Date: 21-Dec-81 15:13:49 PST (Monday)
From: Sapsford at PARC-MAXC
Subject: CA license plate

I recently saw a California license plate that read SF LOVER.  I am
not sure if the SF stands for San Francisco or Science Fiction, but
does anyone out there want to confess to owning this plate (or know
who does)?

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 21 Dec 1981 10:19-PST
Subject: My favorite alternate history stories
From: jim at RAND-UNIX

Doug at UWISC asked for stories dealing with what would happen if
certain things had happened differently.  Among my favorites are:

The Whenabouts of Burr, by Michael Kurland  (excellent)
Pavane, by Keith Roberts  (beautiful imagery and sensitivity, but with
        an unfortunate cop-out at the end)
Worlds of the Imperium (and the rest of that series), by Keith Laumer


Also interesting:

The Indians Won, by Martin Smith  (they won the Indian Wars and ended
        up with everything between California and the Louisiana
        Purchase)
If the South had won the Civil War, by MacKinlay Kantor (sp?)


Don't bother with:

Timeslip, by (I think) Kit Pedlar (??)


There's another one that I haven't read, about what would have
happened if Israel had lost the 6-day war.  Perhaps another reader can
give you that title and author.

        Jim Gillogly

------------------------------

Date: 21 December 1981 18:46-EST
From: Mario Capitolo <BELLS at MIT-AI>
Subject: "What if..."

There is the short story "All the Myriad Ways" by Niven, and there are
many other good "What if.."'s in the anthology by that title.
                        <<Bells>>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #141
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1981 11:17AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #141
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Dec 1981    Volume 4 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:
              FTP - Science Fiction Convention Calendar,
                 SF Books - Author Query & Cyber SF,
   SF Movies - Heartbeeps,  Random Topics - Subversive television,
             SF Topics - What If Books & Fantasy Invasion
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23-Dec-81 00:00:00
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Subject: FTP - Science Fiction Convention Calendar

The latest version of the Science Fiction Convention Calendar is now
available for FTP'ing.  Everyone interested in reading this material
should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for
them.  If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and
we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy.

A new feature of the calendar is the geographical-by-date cross
reference section at the beginning of the file.  This makes the file
longer and more difficult to maintain, both potential drawbacks.
Please feel free to comment on this feature by sending mail directly
to Rich Zellich (Zellich@Office-3).

Please obtain your copies of the calendar in the near future, since
the files will be deleted in one week.  A copy of the material will
also be available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives.  Thanks go
to Rich Zellich for providing this material, and to Alyson L.
Abramowitz, Roger Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman,
and Paul Young for providing space for the materials on their systems.


   Site                 Filename

MIT-AI                  AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CONS
CMUA                    TEMP:CONS.TXT[X440DP0Z]
PARC-MAXC (text)        [Maxc]<Weissman>SFL.Con-Cal
PARC-MAXC (press)       [Ibis]<Weissman>SFL>Con-Cal.press
SU-AI                   CONS.TXT[T,JPM]
MIT-Multics             >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>sf-calendar.text
DEC VAX/PDP-11          KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]CONS.TXT
DEC TOPS-20             KL2137::FTN20:<SF>CONS.TXT


[Note:  You can TYPE or FTP the file from SU-AI without an account.]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 at 1849-CST
From: korner at utexas-11
Subject: Reply to: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #140

        Does anyone have an author to match the title "We all Died at
Breakaway Station" ?
                -Kim Korner

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 1758-EST
Date: 21 Dec 1981 1300-EST
From: DYER-BENNET
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Re: SF Lovers

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V4 #136 )

(hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ) The Clockwork Traitor, published as by E. E.
Smith and Stephen Goldin, contains fully humanoid robots as the major
enemy figures (not a spoiler because of the title, and because this is
revealed to the protagonists early in the story).  This is one of the
Family D'Alembert series.  I wonder how much Doc Smith actually had to
do with it?

In the Destroyer series by Richard Sapir and Warren Murphy (recently
by just Murphy), which is often fringe SF, there is a humanoid robot
known as Mr. Gordons who is the main antagonist in two books.  My
housemate Jerry Boyajian says that Mr. Gordons is in FUNNY MONEY and
BRAIN DRAIN, which should be Nos. 18 and 22 respectively, but he might
have them reversed.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 00:35:37-PST
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Heartbeeps


It has not been heavily promoted and therefore may easily be
overwhelmed in the Xmas rush of movies and thus miss everybody's
notice anyway, so I am taking some risk in calling peoples attention
to Heartbeeps in the hope that I might save some otherwise ignorant
SF-Lovers a few bucks.

  This is the movie Walt Disney would make if he were alive and senile
20 years from now.  It is about a quartet of robots who escape from a
repair factory and become a cute nuclear family while pursued by a
fifth (Crimebuster) robot.  There is as little plot as can be
stretched out to about 80 minutes. Virtually every line of dialogue
seems specifically designed to make anybody with a passing familiarity
with computing wince. It is frequently difficult to distinguish live
characters from the robots, except that the robots are more
sympathetic.  The line of plot and character are all bright, simple
and slow so even l-i-t-t-l-e c-h-i-l-d-r-e-n can get them. It's films
like this that make you appreciate films like Time Bandits.

  The one consolation for Roger Corman buffs is spotting ex-Cormanoids
in bit parts (like the great Dick Miller as a night watchman). But
this is cold comfort.  Don't even watch it on TV when it shows up
there in three weeks.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 14-Dec-1981
Subject: Subversive television
From: MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX
Reply-to: "MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>

Star Trek's William Shatner was on Circus of the Stars last Sunday.
At the conclusion of his performance, the orchestra played what
sounded to me like The International.

Did anybody else hear this?

Martin.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 14:12:16-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: Re hjjh's comments on SF and F

   I've gotten used to the fact that there are few reasonable dividers
within the field of speculative fabulation, and what dividers there
are are virtually unknown to the mundanes. I object far more to the
inclusion of mundane trash like Doris Lessing's books or Jacqueline
Susann's YARGO --- and typically these are considered "too good" to
be SF.
   The results of the Gandalf awards reflect the fact that there is
relatively little pure fantasy published---so where do you draw the
line?  And why? The best material anywhere in the spectrum is
mind-stretching and the worst is worthless; what's in between should
be considered on its own merits rather than categorically.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 1048-EST
From: Eric M. Ostrom <ERIC at MIT-EECS>
Subject: What if

Among the best (if it hasn't already been noted), is "The Man in the
High Castle" by P.K. Dick. Japan and Germany win WW II.
        Eric

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 1105-EST
From: KERN at RUTGERS
Subject: More alternative universe books.


THE ALTERATION, by Kingsley Amis, is an especially fine AU book. It
even references THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE; the hook is 'What if the
reformation didn't take place?'  (In fact, I think it was another
SF-LOVER who recommended this to me last year).

(I forget the name), by James Blish. 'What if the Spanish Armada had
beaten the English?'.  Another fine book.

-kbk

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 1855-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS at MIT-AI>
Subject: More "what if" stories worth noting

How about "What If?", a short story by Isaac Asimov (the canonical
"what if" story, it would seem).  I don't remember offhand which of
his myriad anthologies this appears in.

/Thrice Upon a Time\ by Gregory Benford also deals with the "what if"
concept.  It's one of my favorite of this genre.

                                        -- Roger

[ Actually, THRICE UPON A TIME is by James P. Hogan, not Gregory
  Benford.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 0928-PST
From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Alternate universes


        Or in this case, maybe alternate Universities.  I'm currently
reading Giles Goat-boy by John Barth, which has an interesting
alternate universe, viewing the history of the world as a group of
college campuses.

May you all Pass, and become Graduates.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 at 1058-CST
From: clyde at utexas-11
Subject: Alternative universes

        I also ran across the book about Israel losing the Six- Day
War, though it was many years ago and I don't remember the author, I
recall the title was "If Israel had lost the Six-Day War", or such. I
remember that the book was fairly good (it had some of the flavor of
the early chapters of "Exodus").

        I also recall a book in which 3/4 of Europe was killed by the
Black Plague (rather than 1/2), so that the explorations of the 15th
and 16th centuries never happened. The story was placed in the 20th
Century, and involved a traveller (anthropolists or journalist) from
Europe visiting the Indian nations of the Americas (there were three
or four, and one was ruled by the Aztecs).

        Niven wrote somewhere one of the more interesting thoughts on
alternative universes - every time a decision is made, the universe
splits in twain - one in which the action is taken, the other where
the action was not taken. Since most of these paths are trivially
different, the streams of reality blend back together, particularly on
foggy nights, where one can walk out of one reality into another,
often rendering one's money useless.

[ The story in question is "All the Myriad Ways," which was briefly
  mentioned in volume 4, issue 140.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 11:19:59 EST (Wednesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: alternate universe tales

One of the best alternate universe stories I ever read was "Come the
Jubilee" in which the South won the Battle of Gettysburgh because a
Union artillery company took up their post on the CORRECT hill (the
one they were ordered to go to) and thus were out of range or
something, and unable to contribute to the battle (in the real battle
of Gettysburgh the artillery company got lost, and winded up on a hill
that was a much better location for them to bombard the Southern
forces.

All this is interesting, but incidental to the story, which takes
place many years later, in a backwards North, which is still trying to
recover from the loss of capital that resulted from the South
destroying steel mills in Pittsburgh, etc.

Don't remember who wrote the book, though.

[ The story in question is BRING THE JUBILEE, by Ward Moore, and is
  also mentioned in the next message.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 14:11:23-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: alternate worlds

   I haven't seen what Nichols has to say on the subject, but the one
person I know who has actually been attempting to pull together a
bibliography is Mark Keller, a fan in Providence RI. (He's also done
some projections himself--Japanese colonizing San Francisco, for
instance.) Address available on request.
   The author most associated with uchronias is H. Beam Piper, who
wrote several stories about the Paratime Police. (Andre Norton also
wrote some "crosstime" stories but they represent a much smaller
fraction of her total output), but Murray Leinster appears to be at
least the first person actually to write about crosstime travel.

Particularly well-known or worthwhile works include:

        THE ALTERATION, Kingsley Amis (Martin Luther was coopted; an
English boy soprano in 1976 may be kept soprano. Lots of references)
        LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN, Piper -- \the/ classic.
        BRING THE JUBILEE, Ward Moore (the South won at Gettysburgh.
Infinitely better than IF THE SOUTH HAD WON THE CIVIL WAR)
        THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, Philip K. Dick (we lost World War
II. Not as hallucinatory as later Dick).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #142
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 25, 1981 2:21AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #142
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:
                   Administrivia - Happy Holidays,
   SF Books - Query Answered & Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
             "Let Us Save The Universe" & Oath of Fealty,
     SF Topics - What If Books & Physics Tomorrow (Time Travel),
      SF Movies - U235 and the Witch Doctor & Hideous Sun Demon,
                           SF TV - Dr. Who
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25-Dec-81 00:00:00
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Administrivia - Happy Holidays

From all of us to all of you, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed 23-Dec-1981 15:56-EST
From: Bill Russell <RUSSELL at NYU>
Subject: Re: Volume 4 : Issue 140/141

"We All Died At Breakaway Station" was written by Richard C. Meredith.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 1519-PST
From: Paul Dietz <DIETZ at USC-ECL>
Subject: Here's the plot - what's the title

I read this story a few years ago and can't remember what it was
or where I saw it.  It was a novella, and involved contact between
man and some squid-like ET's, the contact occurring in the ET's
system.  The contact was carried out with FTL controlled machines.
To talk to the squids they finally ended up breeding intelligent
octopi here on earth.

Does anyone recognize this?  It may have appeared in one of the
Stellar anthologies.

------------------------------

Date: 23 December 1981 16:37 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Two part message

1. "Let Us Save The Universe," by Stanislaw Lem, appears in the 21 Dec
81 New Yorker.  The same issue has a profile of Kurosawa, for you
philmphreaks.

2.  A well-known recent "what if" story is, of course, Deighton's
"SS-GB," about a German victory in WWII.  It was marketed as straight
fiction and made, I believe, the NYT best-seller list.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 16:36:58-PST
From: decvax!duke!phs!dennis at Berkeley
Subject: here's the author, AU story

The AU story about an Indian-ruled America after the Black Plague 3/4
wipes out Europe was by Robert Silverberg, I believe; it's an old
favorite, so old I don't remember the title...

Another AU story worth note is SS/GB, by Len Deighton.  It's set after
Germany has conquered Great Britain (the GB of the title) in WWII.
It's basically a mystery in an AU setting.  Good read.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1981 2137-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Some alternate histories and a review.

The alternate histories first:

        The Lord Darcy series by Randall Garrett (yes it's an
                alternate history).

        A Transatlantic Tunnel by Harry Harrison

        The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad (I haven't read this one)



The review next.  I'm surprised I haven't seen this from someone else;
hmm, maybe no one liked it.

I read "Oath of Fealty" by Niven and Pournelle.  It is out in
hardcover.

Micro-review: Of course it's good, it's by Niven and Pournelle.  What
        else need I say more?  Read it and help them make money so
        they'll write more.

Mini-review: In style, this book is more like Lucifer's Hammer than it
        is any of their other work.  Interesting idea well worked out
        (or so it seems to me), with lot's of character development.

Review: I enjoyed the book, it is well written and easy to read.  I
        wasn't convinced by some of the character development, but
        people in the real world don't always react the way I expect
        them to.  There are several interesting gadgets/ideas that
        don't seem to be too far in the future; things like direct
        hookup of human to computer via an implant, towing icebergs
        into harbor for use as fresh water, arcologies.  There seems
        to be a lot of rational thought behind the use/development of
        each one, attention to details like how a thing affects the
        not-quite-straight-in-the-head people as well as the supposely
        sane people.

        Much of the plot of the book is involved with the conflict
        between an arcology and it's host city, In this case Los
        Angeles.  They exist with some tension until the day when the
        arcologies security force has to kill an apparent saboteur.
        The saboteur turns out to be the son of a prominent member of
        the city council.  This causes problems between the city and
        the arcology, while at the same time an anti-arcology
        terrorist group is using the knowledge gained by the sabotage
        attempt to launch another attack.  Along the way the book
        describes the day-to-day life of city-dwellers and
        arcology-dwellers, how they differ, why they differ, etc.
        There is some investigation of the relation between the city
        and the arcology (is it parasitic or symbiotic).  There is
        some discussion (from the arcology's designer) of why the
        arcology was designed the way it was.

I'm going to quit here, the only other thing I want to say is that I
didn't regret springing for the hardcover edition.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1981 23:59:59-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: Smith/Goldin books; Alternate universes.

My understanding of the Smith/Goldin "Family d'Alambert" series is
that Smith left some outlines and notes about a new series, and his
estate/publisher(?) hired Mr. Goldin to write them.  A friend of mine
discussed this with Mr. Goldin, and reported his comment as "It's hard
to write that badly." (By the time you read this, it will be third
hand hearsay; take it for what it's worth.)

Alternate Universes:  C'mon now, howcum no one has mentioned the
series of stories and novels written by Randall Garrett about Lord
d'Arcy?  In his alternate universe, Richard the Lionhearted was never
killed at the seige of Wherever-it-was, and France and England are
united.  The stories take place in the 1960's and 70's, in the Angevin
Empire.  Lord d'Arcy is the equivalent of a Chief Inspector, more or
less, for the Duke of Brittany(?).  His assistant is a master forensic
sorcerer (Oh yes, magic \works/).  Great fun to read.  Some have been
republished recently, look under G in BIP. One title that sticks is
"Too Many Magicians", in which d'Arcy solves a murder at a Sorcerers
convention.  Does anyone else get the feeling that each story is a
parody of a different Mystery author?)

        -Berry Kercheval

------------------------------

From: GSB@MIT-ML
Date: 12/23/81 17:31:42
Subject: What if the spanish armada had beaten the english

This is not by James Blish, but by John Brunner, and is entitled Times
Without Number.  Time-travel paradox stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 13:41 PST
From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC
Subject: from the alternate world of The Man in High Castle

and of course there is the banned book
        The Grasshopper Lies Heavy by Hawthorne Abendsen in which the
U.S. wins WWII.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 1250-PST
From: Daul at OFFICE
Subject: V4 I141 "WHAT IF"...

What if Gregory Benford DID write "Thrice Upon A Time" and not James
Hogan?

------------------------------

Date: 24 December 1981 18:13 est
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics
Subject: alternate universe book

Does AND HAVING WRIT count?  Does anyone remember who wrote it?  It is
not strictly an alternate universe book since it involves aliens
landing in San Francisco Bay but it is very concerned with the impact
of their visit on politics early this century.  (They fall in with
H.G.Wells(?) who is presumed to be an expert on their kind of people.)

[ AND HAVING WRIT was written by Donald R. Bensen.  Besides Wells, it
  also features Teddy Roosevelt and Thomas Alva Edison.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1981 1958-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER at MIT-EECS at MIT-AI>
Subject: Time-travel theories

Apologies for crediting Hogan's /Thrice Upon a Time\ to Gregory
Benford.  Benford's /Timescape\ sits near it on my shelf.

Thinking about these two books got me to wondering about different
time-travel/causality theories I've seen discussed in various works.
Has this digest (or any SF-lover out there) ever tried to catalogue
them?

                                        -- Roger

[ Time travel (like most topics) has been discussed here in SF LOVERS,
  usually under the Physics Tomorrow banner.  No one has done a
  systematic study of the topic via the digest as, say, cybernetics
  are being studied by HjjH.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1981 00:25:41-PST
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!berry at Berkeley
Subject: The Persistence of Trivia

The original "Persistence of Vision" was the famous painting of
Salvador Dali with all the melting watches, for all you trivia fans.

Speaking of unspeakable movies, A friend of mine claims that "U235 and
the Witch Doctor" and "Hideous Sun Demon" are the worst movies he has
ever seen.  Anyone know anything about them?

        -berry

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 23 Dec 1981 14:14-PST
Subject: Dr. Who syndication in Los Angeles
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX

        I can't believe that no one in the Los Angeles area has opted
to pick up syndication of the new Dr. Who series, which I believe has
been released.  Please, please, does anyone out there know what's
going on in the L.A.  metro area?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #143
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 25, 1981 11:36PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #143
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 27 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
                  The People Trap & The Iron Dream,
    SF Topics - What If Books,  SF Movies - The Hideous Sun Demon,
             Random Topics - Computer Chess Mailing List
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 December, 1981 -- 2334 EST
From: Adam Buchsbaum <research!sjb at Berkeley>
Subject: Here's the Plot, What's the Title...

A few years ago, this was among my favorite books, and I'd like to
read it again, but I don't know the name (I had this trouble then
too)!  It deals with these two kids, who, when searching around this
cliff after a tidal wave, find an ancient statue, and eventually, a
corridor leading from there underwater hideaway into a grand chamber,
with a box in it.  In the box is a sea-creature, from way back when,
who, eventually, learns to like these kids and takes them to his
ancient world, now uninhabited but intact.  At the same time, his
ancient enemies, who's race still exists, are on one of there
power-dust finding missions inside the Earth.  The sea-creature and
his human friends reactivate a prototype of the ``mole'' a vehicle
which travels through rock and goes in search of these enemies, whom
they find, and after a while, they all ACT friendly.  It seems the
enemies have the original mole.  When the creature decides to go home,
he and all but one of his friends go in the prototype, while his
`former'-enemies take the one leftover friend (as insurance) in the
original.  A hair-raising feat is attempted, in which the human
captive is recovered, the original mole left powerless in the middle
of rock, with the creature's enemies, and the prototype, with the
creature, his friends, and women from the enemy race (to continue his
own race), gets back to the creature's world.

Anyone recognize this?

------------------------------

Date: 21 December 1981 2258-PST (Monday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Morishille's Voozy -- The Drink of the Universe!

Sometime ago, someone asked a question about the Robert Sheckley short
story, "Untouched by Human Hands".  At that time, I sent out a
response, which ended up in a bit bucket somewhere between here and
MIT-AI.  Though the original query was answered by another reader, I
thought I'd send along the original text of my message (which I just
stumbled across) since it mentioned another work of Sheckley's which
might be of interest to some of the readership.

--Lauren--

-----

Subject: Morishille's Voozy -- The Drink of the Universe!

The story about the two guys searching for food in an alien warehouse
is "Untouched by Human Hands" by Robert Sheckley.  My copy is from the
Sheckley anthology "Untouched by Human Hands", first copyright in
1954.  The story itself (originally titled One Man's Poison", is
copyrighted 1953 by Galaxy Publishing Corporation.  I've always
thought it was a cute story myself.

In a similar (tongue firmly planted in cheek) vein is Sheckley's
anthology "The People Trap (and other Pitfalls, Snares, Devices,
Delusions, as Well as Two Sniggles and a Contrivance)", copyright
1968.  It contains stories ranging from 1952 to 1968.  Many of the
stories involve Richard and Arnold of the AAA Ace Interplanetary
Decontamination Service, who manage to get into all sorts of bizarre
(and amusing) situations...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 1981 2006-CST
From: CS.APPLEWHITE at UTEXAS-20
Subject: The Iron Dream


@i<The Iron Dream>, with introduction and afterword by Norman Spinrad,
is actually an heroic fantasy novel by the well-known author Adolf
Hitler.  Hitler emigrated to the United States after WW I and made his
mark in the fantasy world through his fantastic cover art. He then
turned to writing; a series resulted, of which The Iron Dream was the
first novel.

The Iron Dream recounts the struggle of the hero against the pollution
of genetically pure human stock in the distant future.  Radiation from
a nuclear war has created a large number of grotesque mutations.  The
hero organizes True Men against the evil schemes of the Dominators,
who insidiously plot the mongrelization of the race.  Of course he is
victorious in the end, setting up a Thousand Year Reign of True Men.

Though not Spinrad's best novel, the premise underlying the book is
quite imaginative. I throughly enjoyed the book, as I have all of
Spinrad--one of my very favorite authors.

Re worst movies of all time:  it's got to be The Creeping Terror, at
least two notches below Plan 9 From Outer Space.  - Hugh

------------------------------

Date: 25 December 1981 17:48-EST
From: Mario Capitolo <BELLS at MIT-AI>
Another alternate universe short story is:
        "All the Myriad Ways" by Larry Niven

It deals with some of the problems society finds when it
discovers time travel.  What happens if one comes back to a
different universe?  Etc.

There are also many other fine stories dealing with this
problem:
        "For a foggy night"     - All the Myriad Ways
        "The theory and practice
         of Time Travel"        - All the Myriad Ways
        "Wrong way street"      - Galaxy: April '65 &
                                  Convergent series
Also the Svetz series:
        "Get a Horse"           - The flight of the Horse
        "Bird in Hand"          - tFotH
        "Leviathan"             - tFotH
        "There's a wolf in
         my time machine"       - tFotH
        "Death in a Cage"       - tFotH

All of the Svetz stories deal with the problem of what can
happen when a time machine decides to be a bit random.

For a Foggy Night deals with the connection of alternate
universes via fog.
                        <<Bells>>

------------------------------

Date: 25 December 1981 14:05 est
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Alternate History: Custer's Last Jump

A long story called "Custer's Last Jump" has WWI level aircraft
technology in use during the US Civil War and Indian exterminations.
Comes complete with long spurious bibliography.  Can't recall the
author.

------------------------------

Date: 25 December 1981 0519-PST (Friday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: "The Hideous Sun Demon"

This is indeed a "bad" film, but is nowhere NEAR the levels that "Plan
Nine From Outer Space" and "The Creeping Terror" sink to!

Not much to it, really.  A worker at an atomics lab is accidently
exposed to a strong dose of radiation.  At first there do not seem to
be any bad long-term effects, but he later discovers that sunlight
causes his skin to erupt and turn him into a horrendous (well, uh,
"hideous" actually) and violent monster.  He adapts to this "problem"
by living at night and not going out during the day.

Well, one thing leads to another, and he eventually gets caught out in
the light, becomes hideousified, and starts to run about doing
typically horrible things.  As I recall, he eventually gets trapped on
the framework of some sort of large gas storage tank (or similar
structure) and falls to his doom at the feet of the waiting crowd.

I believe that this wonder of the cinema is of early 60's vintage.

I shouldn't, but I have no pride and I'll say it anyway:  "A truly
HIDEOUS film."

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 81 2:29-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: computer chess & chess mailing list

There's a new mailing list called CHESS@SRI-UNIX. If you're
interested, send a note to CHESS-REQUEST@SRI-UNIX (sending to
CHESS-REQUEST on MC and AI forwards it correctly). Contributions can
be submitted by sending to CHESS@SRI-UNIX (and also the aliases
CHESS@MIT-MC and CHESS@MIT-AI).  This newsgroup is shared with the
UUCP-network.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #144
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, December 28, 1981 4:54AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #144
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Dec 1981      Volume 4 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
           Query Answered & Series (Rim Worlds/D'Alembert),
             SF Topics - What If Books,  SF TV - Dr. Who,
            SF Movies - Turkeys & Raiders of the Lost Ark,
                    Random Topics - Double Digest
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 December 1981 17:53-EST
From: Mario Capitolo <BELLS at MIT-AI>
Subject: What's the title/author?

Here's the story:
        Astronaut goes out to circle a black hole, dives below the
Schwartzfield radius (remember it's rotating though) and ends up
coming (going?) back in time to the same time when he was to "start"
to go on his journey to the black hole.  He meets his younger double,
they corner the stock market, and when the younger person goes to do
his bitty with the black hole, he doesn't get picked for the job, so
he knocks out the new "pilot" and takes off to the hole to finnish the
cycle.

This novel has a distinct Niven taste to it, but I can't seem to find
it in my collection now...?!?
                        Thanks,
                           <<Bells>>

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1981 11:08:48-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: WE ALL DIED AT BREAKAWAY STATION

   was written by Richard Meredith, recently deceased, who also wrote

        AT THE NARROW PASSAGE
        NO BROTHER, NO FRIEND (sequel)
        RUN, COME SEE JERUSALEM
        THE SKY IS FILLED WITH SHIPS

and others.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1981 1826-CST
From: LRC.HJJH at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Grimes/Rim series
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ GRIMES & THE RIM WORLDS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Altho the info is about 4 years old, now, in Reginald's CONTEMPORARY
SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS, Vol. 2, there is a good history \by Chandler
himself/ of the Rim World books.  It includes the following internal
chronology of the Grimes sub-set (tho G's not always THE major char-
acter)--
     '67 THE ROAD TO THE RIM
     '71 TO PRIME THE PUMP
     '72 THE HARD WAY UP
     '68 SPARTAN PLANET (aka FALSE FATHERHOOD)
     '72 THE INHERITORS
     '75 THE BROKEN CYCLE
     '75 THE BIG BLACK MARK
     '69 CATCH THE STAR WINDS (as "Andrew" rather than "John")
     '64 INTO THE ALTERNATE UNIVERSE
     '67 CONTRABAND FROM OTHERSPACE
     '69 THE RIM GODS
     '71 ALTERNATE ORBITS
     '67 NEBULA ALERT
     '72 THE GATEWAY TO NEVER
     '71 THE DARK DIMENSIONS
     '78 THE WAY BACK

Chandler notes that as Astronautical Superintendent of Rim Runners,
Grimes also appears briefly in THE RIM OF SPACE, BEYOND THE GALACTIC
RIM, and THE SHIP FROM OUTSIDE.

According to Vol. 1 of Reginald, other books in the Rim Worlds series
(discounting the 3 "Empress" ones set in its alternate universe) are:
     '74 THE BITTER PILL
     '64 THE DEEP REACHES OF SPACE
     '61 RENDEZVOUS ON A LOST WORLD (but as Chandler mentions THE
BITTER PILL as being near-contemporary, that one seems a little
dubious.)

Subsequent titles, position in the internal sequence unknown, are--

     '77 STAR COURIER
     '78 TO KEEP THE SHIP
     '79 THE FAR TRAVELER
     '80 STAR LOOT
     '81 THE ANARCH LORDS

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1981 11:17:16-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: the family D'Alembert series

   The first book was published as a long novelet in a mid-60's IF
all-Smith (Doc, Evelyn, George H., George O.) issue. It is rumored
that Smith had outlined several more stories in the series.
   Even more questionable is the Lord Tedric series that Gordon Eklund
is apparently ghosting; I seem to recall recent ones not crediting
Eklund at all even though Smith apparently left behind even less for
these than he did for the D'Alemberts.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1981 11:39:33-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: alternities I (armada)

    I've never seen a \Blish/ story about the Spanish Armada winning;
pointers? Brunner did a quartet of stories (collected by Ace) on this
premise, working with ?'s postulate that a world with active (as
opposed to observational) time travel is inherently unstable because
at some point somebody will do something affecting the future to make
time travel impossible. Phyllis Eisenstein also used the premise (but
I can't remember her title) with a clearly-marked turning point: Drake
went after the "right" ship (one full of gold) and missed one loaded
with barrel staves, so the Armada was well-fed after they weathered
the storm coming up the lower Channel.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 1981 2123-PST
From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: Alternate Universes


        The mention of "SS-GB" (which I think I'll have to read)
reminds me of a mini-series PBS ran a little while ago, called "An
Englishman's Castle".  It was about a writer of a soap opera of the
same name, set in England after Germany won the war.  Naturally he
winds up with a Jewish lover.
        I think this show was originally done by the BBC.  If your
local PBS station ever picks this up, it's worth seeing.

/Mike

------------------------------

From: ITTAI@MIT-MC
Date: 12/27/81 12:27:51
Subject: The persistence of incorrect facts.

The famous work by Salvador Dali is entitled "The Persistence of
Memory" \NOT/ "The Persistence of Vision"!  (-source: Arnason, History
of Modern Art; 2nd ed. Prentice-Hall: 1979)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 1981 00:14:24-EST
From: p-btempl at CCA-UNIX (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Dr. Who in Western New York/Ontario

Fans of the Doctor can now watch him on two different stations.
WNED-tv, Ch. 17 in Buffalo, is carrying him every weeknight at six,
and they are currently on the 4th episode in "The Armaggeddon Factor",
the last of the cube of time series.  It may interest some to note
that the actress in this series who plays the princess is L. Ward, who
in the next season will play the regeneration of Romana, and who is
the woman that Tom Baker (the actor) will marry in real life, causing
both of them to leave the series.

The Doctor can be seen at a much lower rate on TV Ontario, (Ch. 19 in
Toronto, among various others) at 7:30 on Saturdays with the same
episode repeated Thursday at 7 pm.  They are currently on episode 4 of
"The Androids of Tara", the fourth segment of the cube of time.

Now an interesting note that I just learned from the script for "Time
Bandits" which I was just given for Christmas.

There was a seventh dwarf in the script, called "Horseflesh", who is
mentionned once or twice in the film as being dead, and who was
eliminated because they felt having seven dwarves might lead to
lawsuits from Disney types.

Merry Christmas!  -Brad
        (p-btempl@cca-unix and decvax!watmath!bstempleton@Berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: 26 December 1981 16:32-EST
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: TRUELY BAD CINEMA


COME ON FOLKS, PLAN NINE IS THE WORST, CLOSELY FOLLOWED BY THE HORROR
OF PARTY BEACH...


NOW WHERE DID I PUT MY SOLABINITE (SIC)....BOOOOOM!

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 1981 2311-PST
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark


I just saw the movie AGAIN and would like to know if anyone has any
idea why they made a fairly STUPID mistake when filming.  At one point
the Staff of Ra is mentioned as being "six cubits long (72 inches)..
and take away one cubit to honor the Hebrew god whose ark this is."
Thus the staff SHOULD be 60 inches long.  But in the next scene, in
the map room, the staff is clearly longer than Harrison Ford is tall
(by about 8 inches).  Now Harrison Ford is NOT 52 inches (4 foot 4)
tall!

I think they MEANT to say that the staff should be 7, not 5, cubits.
That makes it 7 feet tall, eliminating the problem.  Any thoughts on
this?

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 1981 03:47:06-PST
From: decvax!duke!cjp at Berkeley
Subject: double digest

Mode: heartburn

I fail to understand the need for transmitting two copies of the
SF-LOVERS Digest just because the first was "tranmitted too early".
Have a heart, a whole lot of folks had to scan that digest the second
time just to see if it had changed significantly.  Plus, of course,
the cost in phone time and disk space should be considered.  Excuse me
if I'm wrong, but it seems a waste.

There was an incident a while back of a more extreme nature on the
uucp net, where some joker sent out a several-hundred-line copy of an
article available in print anyway, on a (to me) obscure subject,
replete with massive blank padding in the margins, and forgot to sign
it.  So naturally, the joker re-edited his file, signed it, and sent
the whole shebang out again.

As my fifth-grade teacher used to say, "Be careful what you say, for
once the words leave your system, you can't get them back."
                                Charles J. Poirier (duke!cjp)



[ The original mailing of the last digest was started prematurely
  (transmissions are handled automatically).  The mailing was aborted,
  an error message sent to everyone who had already received a digest,
  and a retransmission of the real digest commenced.  Although this
  procedure is "wasteful," occasional errors of this type are, alas,
  to be expected.  It should not reoccur again.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 30-Dec  .McGrath_^_at SU-SCORE>")  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #145
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1981 3:23PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #145
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE

*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1981 3:23PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #145
To: SF-LOVERS at SU-SCORE


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Dec 1981    Volume 4 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:
                  Administrivia - Duplicate Digests,
    SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Total Eclipse,
                     SF Topics - What If Books &
         Physics Tomorrow (Time Travel/Stellar Populations),
        SF Movies - Raiders of the Lost Ark & Query Answered,
                     SF Radio - Lord of the Rings
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30-Dec-81 00:00:00
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Administrivia - Duplicate digests

Apparently many people received two copies of volume 4, issue 144.  It
is unclear what the problem was, but it seems to have solved itself.
Also, everyone received multiple copies of volume 4, issue 145.  The
fault here was traced to a sequence of incorrect commands in the batch
job that controls transmissions from SU-SCORE.  This problem has been
fixed, and should not trouble us again.

We have been making a great number of technical modifications recently
in order to decrease the resources SF LOVERS consumes.  Probably the
problem with issue 144, and definitely the problem with issue 145, can
be traced to these modifications.  Note that neither of these problems
had anything to do with the duplicate transmissions reported in issue
144.  This latter problem was due to an unforeseen side effect of the
transmission control job, not recent modifications.

Duplicate digests, for one reason or another, will always plague us.
However, the specific difficulties that have been encountered recently
have apparently been laid to rest.  Apologies to all for any
inconvenience suffered.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 29 December 1981 09:41 est
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-Multics
Subject: Here's the plot (What If...)

I recall a paperback novel from 1959-1961 about how the world would
have turned out if the Nazis had won WWII and imposed their
cuckoo-clock blood and soil philosophy on the world.  Large parts of
Europe were depopulated and turned into hunting preserves for the
jolly Aryan supermen.  There was a John Norman touch in that the prey
were lovely female "untermenschen" who were permitted to live free
until ridden down, netted, and hauled off to the castle to be the
subject of unspeakable rites.  The thing was written in a very
impressionistic style and rather well done.  I seem to recall a
one-word title.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 28 December 1981 15:32 est
From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics
Subject: Book Review:  Total Eclipse by John Brunner

Sigma Draconis once hosted an intelligent life form - one that climbed
from stone age to space age in three thousand years.  Starting at one
site, they spread over their planet, building each city in the same
plan.  They reached their moon, and built a huge telescope.  Then they
died.  Almost all the artifacts they left behind are unique - just one
of each, except for electromagnetic recordings in crystalline form,
and there are thousands of those.

  100,000 years later, Earthmen are trying to figure it out.
Meanwhile, trouble is growing on Earth.  Can Earth avoid the same doom
that struck down the Draconians?

Our Hero shows up, makes a series of brilliant guesses, and figures it
out in the last ten pages.  Foo!  I suppose the secret wasn't
*totally* ad-hoc, but it seemed mostly like a last minute invention by
Brunner.  It isn't worth reading the book, except maybe on an airplane
or something.

 Total Eclipse, by John Brunner.  Sept 75, DAW Books, 206 pages, $1.50

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1981 1632-EST
From: Eric M. Ostrom <ERIC at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Alternate universes

Two by Poul Anderson, sort of a mini-series; "Three Hearts and Three
Lions" and "The Castle of Iron". One moves back and forth via math.
Magic works over there, but has to be in verse. Pretty good I seem to
remember.  Also Laumer's "Worlds of the Imperium" where you slide
around via machine.  Our hero is given the secret mission of killing a
dictator in one world, and gets a big surprise when they meet.
Finally, I consider Heinlein's "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan
Hoag" an alternate universe plot.
        Eric

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1981 2341-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Alternate time lines

I just finished a collection of short stories by Poul Anderson.  The
collection, Guardians of Time, fits in with the alternate histories
the digest has been discussing.  The stories are about a group that is
dedicated to protecting history as it currently is (i.e. stopping
people that want to meddle in history).  One story in particular,
"Delenda Est", has a rather nicely drawn alternate history based on
Carthage defeating Rome.  Anderson's history has the Celts taking over
in Europe after this early death of Rome.  Assuming that Anderson's
history is correct, the key event is the death of two Roman military
leaders in one of the early battles.  In our history they barely
escaped with their lives from the battle and later went on to be
crucial in the defeat of Carthage.

        Steve Z.

[ Guardians of Time was also briefly discussed in earlier issues of
  the digest.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 29 December 1981 17:50-EST
From: Mario Capitolo <BELLS at MIT-AI>
Subject: What if... End of Eternity

        For us old timers, there is Asimov's End of Eternity which was
based on the whole premise that before WW2, some scientists worked on
the idea of time travel instead of atomic weapons.  Here we have a
"society" who call themselves the "Eternals" and they are outside of
time's influence, and they change time in the "Real World" (there is a
someplace other than Standorf?!?).  Anyway, it shows all of the
problems when you have a society try for the "most good for the most
people brute force action."  In the story, the eternals must stamp out
many good inventions, in order to stop more or less trivial problems
like drug addiction.  I say trivial, because with their constant
munging of the "real world" they finally bring humanity to it's
downfall.
        No more, otherwise I might spoil it for those few people who
haven't read this piece.
        Mini-Review:  I haven't read it for a couple of years, and my
collection of "old" SF is at home, and not here, but I liked it, it is
definitely not one of Asimov's best works, but it is never the less a
very good book and a prime example of the nasty things that can happen
if there really was active time travel.
                        <<Mario>>

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1981 1437-PST
From: Barry Eynon <CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V4 #144

Several references to Niven stories lately prompted me to dig back
through my stack:

ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS is the name of the collection of Niven stories,
containing two different "alternate universe" shorts: "All the Myriad
Ways", which suggests that the knowledge that ALL choices WILL be made
in a given situation leads rapidly to indecision and ultimately to
madness; and "For a Foggy Night", which is the story described by Jim.
It also contains the essay "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel",
which argues that

"GIVEN: That the universe of discourse permits both time travel and
the changing of the past.
THEN: A time machine will not be invented in that universe."

The essay also does a pretty complete job of categorizing time travel
concepts, and gives a few specific story references.

The time travel story about the multiple copies of the astronaut and
the black hole is in Niven's CONVERGENT SERIES, titled "Singularities
Make Me Nervous". Note that all the arguments advanced against time
travel in "Theory and Practice" don't stop them from being fun..

-Barry Eynon <Csd.eynon at SU-Score>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1981 23:59:59-PST
From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley
Subject: Time Travel

Larry Niven's "Theory and Practice of Time Travel", which appeared in
"All the Myriad Ways", should be required reading for anyone who wants
to discuss the topic on the net.  It's an essay, not a story, in which
he discusses many of the different forms of time travel mentioned in
SF, and what's wrong with many of them.  (Other worthwhile essays in
the same collection are "Theory and Practice of Teleportation", and
"Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" -- the latter being a hilariously
clinical description of Superman's sex life, or the lack thereof.)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1981 at 1255-CST
From: clyde at utexas-11 (Clyde Hoover)
Subject: Old age in the galaxy

        True, Population II stars dominate, but as they grow old they
tend to nova or supernova, thus spreading the heavy elements formed in
their cores (due to exhaustion of hydrogen, sufficiently massive stars
begin to burn helium into carbon, then carbon into iron, then blow
their guts), and provide the stuff for formation of Population I stars
(like Sol) and accompanying planetary systems.

        So think of the Population II stars as the nuclear forges from
the days of the galactic formation, producing the larger atomic
numbers that our sort of matter is made from. Now what happens when
our present Population I stars grow old (in 10-20 billion years), and
the amount of hydrogen available for fusing drops, is another matter
entirely.

        As concerns candidates for planetary systems, Sol managed well
with only 10 billion years or so, and there are a lot of stars of
Sol's age floating around in this arm of the galaxy, so the chances of
other Earth-like planets are still reasonable.  Anyway, all the
figuring I've seen vis a vis that number assumed only 1 in 1-10
million stars would even have a planet in the "habitility zone" for
OUR life-forms.

        Oh yes, Sagan is an astromoner, so it is safe to assume that
his calculations take the stellar census into consideration.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1981 16:04:54-PST
From: menlo70!hao!cires!harkins at Berkeley
Subject: McGrath's notions on cubits re: RotLA

          If my memory serves correctly, a cubit is defined as the
distance from the end of some ruler's (i.e., like a pharoah) fingers
to his elbow (hmm, maybe that's the etymology for the word ruler come
to think of it, in the measuring stick sense), which is on the order
of 16-18 inches; if you plug that into the formula McGrath quotes, the
stick winds up on the order of 7 feet long... ok?  ernie

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1981 2038-EST
From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler)
Subject: problems in Raiders of the Lost Ark...

        As long as people seem to be tearing apart RotLA, I figured I
would add my share.  When I saw the movie, a long time ago, I seem to
recall someone mentioning that Moses brought the tablets down from
Mount Herod, maybe I was taught wrong, but I was always told that he
got them while he was up Mount Sinai (even my dictionary knows that!).
Did anyone else hear this contradiction?

                                                        David Adler

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1981 1326-PST
From: Dave Dyer       <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Lord of the Rings on Radio


 KCRW broadcast the first 13 episodes Christmas Day, and will
broadcast the last 13 on New Year's day, from noon to 6:30 pm.

 Review:  Not bad, but nothing to rave about either.  My overall
impression of the first thirteen is of a fairly well produced but
mundane adventure story.  Most of the characters seem entirely human,
which is a poor state of affairs for a hobbit.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 29 Dec 1981 16:59-PST
Subject: Lord of the Rings radio plays
From: chris at RAND-UNIX

KCRW, the Santa Monica College radio station, ran the thirteen
1/2-hour episodes of LotR from noon to 6:30pm on Christmas day.
Unfortunately, since I was running around between festive dinners and
caroling at the local old folks' home, I didn't hear all of them--but
the sections at Bree with Strider and Butterbur, and the meeting of
Merry and Pippin with Fangorn, which I did get to hear, were excellent
and I think the series well worth taping (our hosts for Christmas
dinner did tape the series, and I'm getting my copy made as soon as I
can buy the tape).  I had some reservations about the chanting of the
five Black Riders in the attack at Weathertop, since it reminded me of
the too-long and much too boring version of the same scene in the
Bakshi film; evil is generally hard to portray anyway.  And scenes
which are primarily visual are very difficult to do on radio--e.g.,
STAR WARS as a radio play failed because of this.  But Tolkien was
well aware of the effect of the spoken word, and LotR has a great deal
of conversation which carries the story.  On the whole, I think it
translated very well to the radio medium.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************
