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Summary-line:  3-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #1
Date:  3 Jan 84 1336-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jan 84 1336-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Jan 1983      Volume 9 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:
               Books - Eddings & Book Request & Reviews
               Films - Use of Holograms
               Miscellaneous - Parsec Definition

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 83 23:09:21-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!aecom!jsanders @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: next book in the Belgariad

        Bad news folks: The next book of the Belgariad by David
Eddings (book 4; Castle of Wizardry) isn't due out till the spring.
The fifth and final book (Enchanted End Game) is expected out within
a month of book 4 though. If you havn't read this delightful fantasy
yet - I strongly recommend it. The three books already published
are: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of Sorcery, and Magician's Gambit.
                                Jeremy Sanders
        {philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!{sanders|jsanders}

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 1983 14:28:48-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: story request

   The actor-vs-robot story you describe is indeed "The
Darfsteller"; it was a Hugo winner in the 50's and accordingly
appears in volume one of the Hugo winners series, edited by Asimov.
My recollection is that it was written by Walter M. Miller, but I
wouldn't swear. . . .

------------------------------

Date: Thu 29 Dec 83 02:34:30-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: BOOKS: Correy, Llewellyn, Varley, Brin, Kingsbury, Cherryh,
Subject: Pope, MacAvoy, (Scarborough, and Lanier)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (Mostly) RECENT AND READABLE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Books get tossed onto a pile near my terminal when there's something
about them which prompts an impulse to send a comment to SF-LOVERS
whenever time permits.  Time, unfortunately, is rarely that kind, so
that when it IS, I can no longer recall what I wanted to say because
of all the other books read in the meantime.  Lanier's MENACE UNDER
MARSWOOD is sitting here, for instance, and I haven't a clue as to
why.  Vaguely I have a feeling it might have been a disappointment,
that the latter part reminded me of old-time SF with Martian
settings, and not the ones which are still effective like Leigh
Brackett's.

However, here's a report on the stack, which may incline someone to
try a title they otherwise might not have.  As one man's meat is
another's poison, y'know, I'll warn you of 2 salient characteristics
of my taste.  The primary one is that I abhor "downers" and require
at least a happy ending.  (But, valiant humans defeating the
villainous machinations of an e-e-evil computer are NOT considered
happy endings.  Evil computers so strain the credibility of a story
that I can't be bothered reading such gook.) Secondarily, I much
prefer SF to fantasy, tho it can as well be adventurous as "hard".
The more productive of my preferred authors are, in no particular
order-- Hogan, Busby, A.D.  Foster, Clement, Clarke, Kapp, pre-Witch
World Norton, McCaffrey, Schmitz, Dickson, James White, Garrett,
Leinster, and, tho no one else probably remembers him, a writer of
to-me-charming 3rd-rate SF, Philip E. High.  There are other
less-productive favorites like our Dr. Forward-- Correy, Sheffield,
etc., but the above are those with at least 6 books on the "worth
re-reading" section of my shelves.

MANNA by Lee Correy: Just about \any/thing by this author, under
either of his names, is worth reading, and this latest one is no
exception.  What I found particularly intriguing was the detailed
background he'd worked out for the setting (a fictitious nation on
the east coast of Africa) even tho relatively little of the detail
was worked into the story.  I've heard of PsiPhi [pace, John
Quarterman] writers working up detailed descriptions of an alien
planet, but never a \nation/ to a comparable extent.  The 2-1/2 page
"[excerpt] from THE TERRESTRIAL ALMANAC AND BOOK OF FACTS, 2050"
appended at the end has such verisimilitude that it could be used as
one of the fake entries which major reference books include to trap
pirates and plagiarism.  Good story, too.

PRELUDE TO CHAOS, and, SALVAGE AND DESTROY by Edward Llewellyn.
This writer is a prime candidate for SF's "Underappreciated Author"
roster.  Oh, his stuff isn't GREAT, but it's GOOD, competent stuff.
And, he doesn't write depressingly, which is too often the case with
better writers.  SALVAGE... has rather more stock SF elements than
I'd like, so is a bit short on imaginativeness, but still a pretty
satisfying read.

PERSISTENCE OF VISION by John Varley is hardly recent, but it's been
cropping up recently on SF-L, and here's another accolade.  I hardly
ever read short SF; it takes at least the length of a component of
an old Ace "double" to satisfy me (never CAN remember the relative
length of a `novella' vs. a `novelette').  But \this/ collection is
an outstanding exception.  Only the title story completely turns me
off, while "The Phantom of Kansas" and "In the Hall of the Martian
Kings" are among my favorite SF of any length, "Overdrawn at the
Memory Bank" is one of my favorite SF computer stories, etc., etc.
If you haven't read this book, I almost envy you for the pleasure
still awaiting.

PRIDE OF CHANUR by C.J. Cherryh is also not new, but it came in 2nd
only to Asimov for '82, and for MY money, was a much more enjoyable
read than FOUNDATION'S EDGE which I found myself just flipping thru.
I read all of Cherryh's books, because they're GOOD even tho I don't
\enjoy/ them enough to keep for re-reading.  So I wish so much that
PRIDE... (nice pun!) \had/ won the Hugo, to influence her to write
more in the same vein, since it's the first book she's done that's
really an "upper".  If you've been put off by her regretable
tendency toward mild depressiveness, here's a chance to really enjoy
something by this otherwise top-notch writer.

STAR TIDE RISING by David Brin, I agree, is probably the best SF
novel of the year.  Much better than his earlier SUNFALL(?), which
was, itself, quite adequate.

RITE OF PASSAGE by Kingsbury(?) is difficult to characterize.  It
held me fascinated by a wealth of unusually intriguing ideas until,
when I got to the part about her comfortingly serving him a special
delicacy, baby-liver pate', I suddenly realized I wasn't really
\enjoying/ the story, however fascinating, and left the rest unread.

THE PERILOUS GARD by Elizabeth Marie Pope has been a long time
deserving the wider distribution which it may get as a Magic Quest
title in Berkeley's Tempo paperbacks.  Tho I do read it
occasionally, fantasy is not really my kind of thing.  There are
notable exceptions, of course, one of which is when the magic is
competently handled and the story is humorous.  [If there are others
on SF-L who relish fantasy when it's humorous AND the writer
obviously knows his Grammarie, some noteworthy instances of this
type are-- Garrett's "Lord Darcy" stories, Stasheff's WARLOCK IN
SPITE OF HIMSELF, (surprisingly) Koontz' THE HAUNTED EARTH, Simak's
hybrid THE GOBLIN RESERVATION, and the rather uneven XANTH series of
Piers Anthony.]

The other time I'll go for a GOOD fantasy over an ordinary SF book
is when it is just that: the quality of the work is outstanding, as
with the RING trilogy, McKillip's RIDDLEMASTER series, or the 1st
two of Wrightson's WIRRUN books.  PERILOUS GARD is unlike any of
those, but can hold its head up in such company.  Perhaps, despite
the complete dichotomy of setting-- Tudor England vs. contemporary
Australia-- its aristocratic heroine and Wrightson's Aborigine hero
share an element of similarity in their matter-of-fact-outlook.  A
clever ploy of the author is to allow almost every seemingly
super-natural aspect of the story open to a rational explanation,
while leaving \this/ hard-headed reader preferring the magical.

A special quality the writing in this book has is likely to be
unknown to all but a handful of people-- its read-aloud-ability.
When it first came out in hardback, I was recording SF for the Iowa
State Library for the Blind.  Unfortunately, I ran out of available
time for recording all the books I had practiced on, but I did
discover that a "real good book" might not be good for reading
aloud.  Specifically, Clement's MISSION OF GRAVITY.  It would be
hard to imagine any reputable "SF BEST" list without that title in
it, but the plodding style (sentence structure?) makes it just about
imPOSSible to read with any animation.  Leinster's also have a bit
of this quality, but nowhere nearly as bad.  It was like trying to
walk fast through knee-deep water.  Yet, MISSION... is a \darned/
good story.

Anyhow, nothing I ever read so rrrolllllled off the tongue, and I've
done a lot of interpretive reading in my day, as PERILOUS GARD.  And
it, too, is a darned good story even if it IS fantasy.

DAMIANO by R.A. MacAvoy was something I picked up at the SF-&-skiffy
bookstore in desperation because there was nothing else new to fill
in unexpected free time.  LOCUS had recommended it, and there was a
laudatory blurb by McCaffrey on the cover, but I was still smarting
from having just struggled through the series including BRONWYN'S
BANE which had similar recommendations.  (The 1st, SONG OF SORCERY,
wasn't so bad, but they got progressively worse.  \Humorous/ fantasy
is fine, but I can't stomach "cutesy".)

DAMIANO, however, was a serendipitous selection.  Excellent!  I
could even stomach the archangel!  The background of 14th century
Savoy and Lombardy-- a new one in fantasy so far as I know, is
skillfully handled (distinctly more authentic than Kurtz'
Gwynedd=Wales) and particularly suitable for fantasy-- far better
than the amorphous quasi-medieval-Europe too often used.  Most
telling, for me, was the special kind of "tingle" this book
produced, a certain indefinable aura which, I find, characterizes
\quality/ in high fantasy.  This has it!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 83 14:41:28 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Holy hologram!
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA>

Holy hologram! Everybody's finding computer effects in movies! Even
where they may not exist!

"I found the movie a bit [ROTJ] dull, but spent lots of time looking
at the rasters in the images." -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG

". . . seemed obviously computer-generated to me: Indiana Jones
dropping the staff down into the buried room. . ."
--hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!bukys @ Ucb-Vax

Anything that looks grainy or is just a poorly done special effect
has the "computer look." Like the "ground effect" around the vehicle
escaping from Jaba's barge (mentioned by Dave Mason above). And
things that were *not* done by computer are mistaken for computer
effects. For instance, the projection of Princess Leia (sic?) from
R2D2 in SW. In the documentary about the movie they *say* they
filmed a TV image of her, and that's what gave it the holographic
quality. Yet I still hear several people referring to that as a
computer generated image.

I'm not a computer special effects expert, but I don't like people
getting so obsessed by computer effects that they start finding them
everywhere, ignoring the fact that the scene was poorly filmed, not
giving credit to the ingenuity of doing it another way (the Leia
image), not paying attention to the movie itself, and spreading a
kind of computer illiteracy by attributing to computer technology
what some creative people can do with stone knives and bear skins.

As a side note, I was disappointed by the lack of better effects in
ROTJ. It seemed like just more of the same, but just done better. I
suppose when you use the same people you get the same look. I was
also disappointed by the small number of computer effects. While
it's true that they shouldn't just throw the effects in to have
them, and the wire diagram fits the need of the scene, I was looking
forward to seeing some new things, especially after hearing talks by
some Lucasfilm people.  Maybe they're still developing some effects.
Maybe they'll give us something like "The Works" since it seems the
New York Institute of Technology will complete "The Works" in 1995
if they can only finish a few (though from what I've seen from
stills, excellent) minutes a year.  It's going to take an
organization like Lucasfilm, with the people, money, and name, to
get a fully computer generated film to a theater near you.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 29 December 1983 02:08 est
From: "Barry Margolin"@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: parsec definition

The definition of a parsec is the length of the perpendicular or
side (I don't remember which, but they are pretty close to each
other) of an isosoles (sp?) triangle whose base is 2 AU and whose
vertex angle is 1 second.  The relationship to the physical
derivation of the term is that a stationary (relative to the sun)
object is one parsec away if it has a parallax of one second of arc
when viewed from opposite points in the earth's orbit.  This has
probably been long abandoned as an accurate definition, since the
earth's orbit is not a circle, and therefore does not have a
constant diameter; it is presumably defined in terms of light-years
these days.
                                        barmar

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #2
Date:  4 Jan 84 1557-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jan 84 1557-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:
           Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Brook & MacAvory &
                   Hugo Award Nominations & Matriarchies,
           Television - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
           Films - Use of Holograms,
           Miiscellaneous - Speed of Light & Parsecs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Dec 83 23:59:35 CST
From: hjjh <hjjh@utexas-11.ARPA>
Subject: Darkover

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Darkover Chronology ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Based on the listing in THE DARKOVER CONCORDANCE by Walter Breen
(MZB's husband), with any subsequent books I can recall slipped in
where it seems likely they belong, the sequence based on internal
chronology is:

   DARKOVER LANDFALL
   STORMQUEEN
   HAWKMISTRESS!
   TWO TO CONQUER
   THE SPELL SWORD
   THE SHATTERED CHAIN
   THENDARA HOUSE
   THE FORBIDDEN TOWER
   STAR OF DANGER
   THE BLOODY SUN
   WINDS OF DARKOVER
   HERITAGE OF HASTUR
   SWORD OF ALDONES concurrent with SHARRA'S EXILE
   THE PLANET SAVERS
   THE WORLD WRECKERS

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 84 16:02:57 EST
From: LIz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Bradley

The best book to start the series with is THE SPELL SWORD, followed
by THE FORBIDDEN TOWER.  Then try THE RED SUN????(title paraphrased)
and then go on...you can ignore DARKOVER LANDFALL entirely.  The
books of short stories are so-so and there was one novel about
virtual twins (staged in the Age of Chaos) that did nothing for me.
Most of the books are excellent, there is no specific order of
reading - but this order makes some sense.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 1984 23:10-PST
Subject: Elfstones
From: Craig E. Ward <Ward at USC-ISIF>

I just finished Terry Brook's "The Elfstones of Shannara".  It is a
sequel to his "Sword of Shannara".

The time is about 50 years after the first novel.  Most of the
characters from the first are either old or dead.  We have Shea's
grandson, Wil, who is talked into going on another quest by Allanon
(one of the returning characters).  This time the Forbidding that
has prevented the evil race of Demons from over running the entire
world is failing and Wil must guard the last remaining person, an
elf girl, who can restore the magic.

If anything, it is better than the first.  There are more
interesting characters than I remember there being in the last.
Brooks sets up a very interesting relationship between Wil, the elf
girl and a gipsy-like female.  Also, he shows us the changing
relationship between an aging king and his second oldest son.

I did find one fault though, he spends to much time on battle scenes
but they are related somewhat to the developing king/son
relationship mentioned above.

On the whole, I have to recommend this one.  Not bad for a lawyer
from Illinois (where they thought they had a football team).

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 84 14:14:21 PST (Mon)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: R.A.MacAvory's "Damiyano" NOT A SPOILER

        Among all the new authors, one has come to my attention, and
I thought I'd pass on my review of R.A.MacAvory's second (to my
knowledge) recent book, "Damiyano".  (My spelling of author's name
may be subject to faulty memory).  I am not sure, upon reflection,
exactly where I got the information that the author is a woman, and
my apologies if I am wrong, but I will continue under the assumption
that I am right.
        MacAvory has written two books that I know about, this being
her second and "Tea With the Black Dragon" being her first.  I don't
know if I'd call "T.W.T.B.D." fantasy, but "Damiyano" definitely is.
After reading "T.W.T.B.D.", I felt reading this new book might be a
good gamble.  Her first book definitely had charm, wit, and an
almost-quite-decent plot (a friend of mine huffily calls this a
"matter of opinion" and would remove the "almost," but I won't).
"T.W.T.B.D" was not without its flaws, but these flaws were fairly
easy for me to overlook, both because this is a first book and
because of the author's very nice execution of the story and
characters.
        Now for the second book.  Since I'm not sure just what
constitutes a "spoiler", I won't outline the plot at all, I'll just
tell you what I think.  I confess I raised a suspicious eyebrow (or
two) when the back cover proclaimed "Damiyano" the first in a
trilogy -- how many new authors begin by advertising a trilogy?
(Yes, but how many of these are GOOD?)  But the proof is in the
reading, so I gave it a try.  "Damiyano" has more flaws than
"T.W.T.B.D.", unfortunately.  MacAvory is bent on describing
everything, and though she does not fall into the unbearable
superlative modes that many (often otherwise quite decent) authors
do, this does get a little tiring.  The plot is a little weak and
this being the first in a trilogy, (though we'll see about that --
the 2nd part is due April '84) doesn't excuse that as far as I am
concerned.  Her characterization, however, is quite good, and her
humor is superb, as it was in "T.W.T.B.D."  I can see her writing
some very good stuff, but I feel she needs some work.  Despite all
these criticisms, I must admit to having enjoyed the story.  It
reads well and is entertaining.  And to anyone who read "Tea With
the Black Dragon" and loved it (or liked it a lot), "Damiyano" is
worth reading.

                sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

Date: 1 January 1984 16:36 EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Hugo nominations

I recently received a nominating ballot for the 1984 Hugo and John
W.  Campbell Awards.  Works published in 1983 (or whose first
English appearance is 1983) are eligible for the awards.
Nominations are due by March 17, 1984.

I would like contributors to SF-LOVERS to suggest works which they
think are worth reading and then nominating.  Here are the
categories:

Best Novel                      over 40 K words
Best Novella                    17.5 to 40 K words
Best Novelette                  7.5 to 17.5 K words
Best Short Story                under 7.5 K words
Best Non-Fiction Book

Best Dramatic Presentation
Best Professional Editor
Best Professional Artist
Best Semiprozine                1K+ copies, paid staff, etc.
Best Fanzine                    anything not a semiprozine

Best Fan Writer
Best Fan Artist
John W. Campbell Award          new writer, first work is 82 or 83

Of course the Hugo Nominating ballot and LAconII Progress Report 2
gives a more complete description of eligibility criteria.

Thanx for your suggestions!
-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 84 15:58:18 EST
From: LIz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: matriarchies

You will find matriarchies in Joanna Russ' The Female Man and many
of her other books.  (I like this book - even though most of my
friends think it is terrible - of course I like Dahlgren also...)

A very interesting matriarchy is in (author unremembered and my
books are still packed) the two book series containing

Walk to the End of the World
Motherlines.

liz//

Ps.  These are both in the radical feminist-lesbian tradition - but
they are definitly science fiction.  If you are interested in
matriarchies per se - try Jane Harrison's Themis - published early
in this century but reprinted within the last ten years.  This book
deals with the conflict between matriarchy and patriarchy in
Hellenic Greece as a source of myth.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 06:32:44-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!quill!wecker@SU-Shasta

I'm trying to locate a science fiction story (it appeared in a
collection of short stories) that had the following plot elements:

    1)      Took place in the future
    2)      The hero was sent out from earth in a single man
            "spaceship" on a mission of general discovery
            (The spaceship is in quotes because it was more than a
            spaceship.. it was an extension of himself).
    3)      He was the symbol of the best that could be achieved by
            man (and knew it).
    4)      He could go anywhere and do anything.. and thought that
            he was virtually a God.
    5)      Needless to say he came across an intelligence that
            swatted him out of space like a fly and completely
            humiliated him.. stripping him of everything including
            his humanity.
    6)      Most of the story focuses on him as an animal regaining
            some semblence of concious thought and eventually
            defeating the alien that had tried to crush him.
    7)      At the end he returns to earth in the aliens ship..
            however due to what he's been through he is no longer
            really human, and everyone else knows it.

Does it ring a bell for anyone? It was one of the most powerful
short stories I ever read... and of course I neglected to write down
the title or authors name. My guess is that is was written in the
50s or early 60s and the version I read was in hard cover.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 83 13:48:07-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!microsoft!fluke!witters @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Seattle Area)

The Radio series of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy will be
broadcast beginning Monday January 2nd, 1984 on KUOW FM 94.9 MHz
Seattle at 6:30 P.M..

The Television series will be broadcast beginning Saturday January
28th, 1984 on KCTS channel 9 Seattle at 8:30 P.M..

In my opinion, the radio series is better than the television
series.  Here is your chance to find out for yourselves.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 84 13:40:43-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Holy hologram!

Kevin is quite right, the rasters do not imply computer generated,
merely computer massaged.  There were (it seemed) virtually no
computer generated images.  The rasters (and the ground effects
around aircars) are the results of a sloppy job with the
blue-screening machines (as opposed to the blue- meanie scrachines).
The interesting question is: once they get the images into a
computer (as opposed to generating them) what is the limit to what
they can do with them.  As mentioned, the current state of the art
with truly computer generated images is SLOW (though high quality),
but why not use that horse-power to do neat things with video-taped
images.  As an example of the short term future, go to see TRON: the
story's a little (a LITTLE?) weak, but the graphics are great, an
innovative combination of computer generated with computer
mangled images is quite effective.

 -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG,
        {utzoo,linus,cornell,watmath,ihnp4,allegra,floyd,decwrl,
         decvax,uw-beaver,ubc-vision}!utcsrgv!mason

------------------------------

Date: Mon 2 Jan 84 10:21:08-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Speed of light

Just a minor nitpick: the speed of light is NOT the same on Pluto as
on Mercury, since it depends on the gravitational potential.  It is
also not necessarily the same for moving observers in a
gravitational field, since their frames of reference might be
stressed.

Now the real problem: if we can already DETECT a black hole at the
center of the galaxy, then we have a lot less than 30,000 years to
get out of here.  It is one thing for Beowulf Sheaffer to go by FTL
drive to see the core, and quite another for visible evidence to
reach us at light speed.  If we suppose that fast particle radiation
travels at up to 99% of the speed of light, then it will start
hitting us 300 years after we see the light from matter being sucked
into the hole.

How much radiation?  How much will be emitted in the galactic plane,
which presumably is the plane of rotation of the hole (angular
momentum being conserved)?  Do we panic now, or will it wait until
next century?

Happy New Year.

PS - the giant spiders of Metebelis III get the crystal back,
     but the Queen Spider (all praise to the Great One!) cannot
     stand the shock of being so super-intelligent and explodes with
     lots of cheap special effects.

     The idea of a spider spinning a web of brain matter may be
     original to the episode, or may have been lifted from Ballard's
     The Voices of Time.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 09:09:18-PST
From: Dan L Pierson <decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson@SU-Shasta>
Subject: Parsecs and SW

Shortly after Star Wars first appeared a couple of physicist friends
of mine noted that:

    1) There is a system of measures of theoretical physics in which
       everything (length, mass, time) is measured in meters.

    2) Han's trip took about 42 years (using Earth parsecs).

                                                dan

Usenet: decvax!decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson
Arpanet: pierson%digital@rand-relay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #3
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jan 84 1443-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:
              Books - Hogan & MacCaffrey & Macleish &
                      Book Request & Reviews & Leiber,
              Films - Indiana Jones & New Movies for '84 & Holograms,
              Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Parsecs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 84 0:27:59-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hpcnoa!rdg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: inherit the stars - (nf)

I agree that Inherit the Stars didn't have much of a plot, but I
think the book was excellent overall; The sequels were pretty good
also.

How about Hogan's "Genesis Machine?" Now there's a book with plot,
science,adventure, etc!

I find myself going back to the bookstore for more Hogan books
often.

Rob Gardner
{hpfcla,hp-pcd,csu-cs}!hpcnoa!rdg

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 84 12:52:51 GMT (Tuesday)
From: Cooper.rx@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Anne McCaffrey & Dinosaur Planet

Apparently, Dinosaur Planet was written before Ms. McCaffrey started
on the Dragon... books, and due to the immense success of the latter
series, and the eternal continuation of the saga, she simply never
got around to finishing off the Dinosaur Planet trilogy. A sad
mistake if you ask me.

        Martin

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 83 12:12:22-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: a book you might find interesting

Prince Ombra is indeed by Roderick MacLeish.  He does an occasional
Spectrum appearance on CBS Radio (KNX in my area).  (You know, "Rod
MacLeish??)  I read the book but wasn't too thrilled with it.  There
are bunches of avatars of Good throughout the years, as described in
the previous note, and they must confront Evil in their own time and
either win or lose ... losing dooms the Earth to the effects of Evil
until it burns itself out for awhile.  (That's not a spoiler yet.)
I didn't find the author's vision of the pre-life state very
compelling; nor was I impressed with the quality of the competition
to the Ultimate Evil ... you wouldn't expect Luke Skywalker or any
moisture-farmer of that ilk to be successful against the whole
Empire, would you?  Me neither.

                Jim Gillogly    I/ /
                randvax!jim     I_/
                jim@rand-unix   I

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:12:42-PST
From: Len Alanurm <decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm@SU-Shasta>
Subject: I was hoping...

        I am hoping that someone (besides me) has read a story
called "SENTINALS FROM SPACE". Author unknown. Plot is basically
about some mutants (in the future) that have set themselves up as
guardians of humanity. One of the things that they do is break into
a castle on Mars to get some bad guys. Their mutant powers are quite
awesome as I recall.  It was many years ago that I read the story
(20 +). If anyone knows name of author, etc, I'd love to know.

Len Alanurm
Tonto::Alanurm

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Jan 84 02:37:07-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Corrections

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Righting a Wrong Rite ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The issue of SF-L with my multi-book review hasn't materialized here
yet, but there were 2 mistakes in it needing rectifying.

Sonia at AIDS-UNIX contacted me about my substitution of the title
of Panshin's RITE OF PASSAGE for Kingsbury's COURTSHIP RITE, and
right she is.

They are both excellent SF, but \for me/ Kingsbury's COURTSHIP RITE
was just not enjoyable.  I have some kind of aesthetic idiosyncracy
which divorces how much I enjoy a book from how good I think it is.
Even recognizing them for what they are, I'm perfectly capable of
enjoying junque and disliking something of excellence.  (J.M.
Roberts' CESTUS DEI, for instance, as opposed to COURTSHIP RITE.)

The other error was the inclusion of Colin Kapp among the authors
who'd written at least a half dozen books I liked well enough to
keep for re-reading.  (The \majority/ of the books I purchase get
recycled back to the used bookstore.)  Some books had gotten
mis-shelved and there were actually only 3 of Kapp's earliest ones
there.  Ordinarily this wouldn't merit a disclaimer except that he's
recently started a new series about "shell" Earths, one inside
another inside another around the sun, which is ghodawful.  Since
discussion on SF-L can influence my own purchasing, I didn't want to
have been a factor in someone else's picking up the new Kapp's.

On the other hand, are there a-n-y other Philip E. High fanciers any-
one has ever heard of?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 84 16:09:12-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: title request - (nf)

Re: cat saves us monkey people.

Hmmmm... that's strange. All the way through your description I kept
thinking, this is just like the pilot of the survey craft that came
out from the new planet in "The Wanderer", by Fritz Leiber.  But at
the end you say you already have the novel. Are you thinking of some
other novel, or has it just been awhile since you have read "The
Wanderer"????

-Puzzled...

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

p.s. I liked The Wanderer, for those who haven't read it. Another
"When Worlds [nearly] Collide".

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:55:26-PST
From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta,
Subject: New Indiana Jones flick

In the Boston Globe of 11-Dec-83 there was an ad for the "Raiders of
the Lost Ark" video. In this ad, in very small print, was "COMING to
a theatre near you May 25, 1984...Indiana Jones and the Temple of
Doom".

Anyone have any details on this sequel? Besides Harrison Ford,
anyone else reprising their Raiders roles? Who's directing,
producing, writing, etc?  Any info would be appreciated (except for
the plot!).

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp
   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:56:38-PST
From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta,
Subject: New movies for '84?

Besides the new Indiana Jones flick coming in May, does anyone know
of any other big SF films coming? Even next summer...

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp.
   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 84 10:55:03-PST (Mon)
From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Holy hologram!

The rasters do not even imply computer massaged.  The image of
Princess Leia "projected" from R2D2 never went anywhere near a
computer.  They merely ran the film of Leia through a telecine
machine to get the rasters so it would appear to have been generated
by an electronic scanning system (not necessarily a computer).  They
then superimposed the result on the scene of the watchers.

>From the Tardis of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP,  decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc,
 ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:58:42-PST
From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta,
Subject: Doctor Who book

This weekend I found a book in the B. Dalton Bookstore in the Mall
of New Hampshire entitled "Doctor Who, A Celebration, Two Decades
Through Time and Space".

Although it costs $17.95, it is well worth it if you are a fan of
the Doctor!

It contains chapters on the genesis of the show and its evolution
through the years (written by people who were involved in the
production), biographies of all the Doctor actors (including their
own views of the part), features on the Daleks, the Dr Who movies,
the Doctor's companions, the Master and backstage glimpses of the
show from directors, producers and writers.

Perhaps the best part of the book is a section containing a synopsis
of each episode (through the '82-'83 season). The summaries range
from one paragraph to a whole page.

The book also contains lots of photos.

If you are a Whovian (that's what the fan clubs call themselves),
you should get this book!

BTW: One missing piece is any detail about the 20th Anniversary
show; the book was published in May '83. There are a few references
to the show: I found out that the Tom Baker scenes in 'The Five
Doctors' were taken from an serial called 'Shada' that was never
finished due to a strike at the BBC and therefore never shown
before.

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp.
   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:57:18-PST
From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta,
Subject: Cast changes in Doctor Who??

I have picked up rumblings in recent SFLs that there have been
changes made in the Dr Who casting. Someone said that Peter Davison
was out (after second season?), a new man brought in (Colin Baker?)
and he replaced in short order. Rumor was that Jon Pertwee (Dr #3)
was coming back!

Anybody out there (especially people in England) have the straight
news??

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp.
   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: 3 January 1984 22:23 est
From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Dr. Who Fan Club?

Does anyone have the address of a midwestern Dr. Who fan club?  (the
address of the national one would also be of interest.)

(reply direct unless you want SFL to be flooded with several
identical answers.)

Ted Lee

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 84 14:15:46 PST (Mon)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: Dr. Who

        On New Year's Eve I saw my first Dr. Who series, and I have
only one question: How does the lady keep that hat from falling off
of her head??????

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 84 16:08:12-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: What a 'parasec' is. - (nf)

Sorry to be picky, but the astronomical term is 'parsec' (two
syllables), not 'parasec' (3 syl.). As defined in Webster's New
Collegiate:

parsec: [par-allax + sec-ond] n. a unit of measure for interstellar
        space equal to a distance having a heliocentric parallax of
        one second [of arc] or to 206,265 times the radius of
        Earth's orbit or to 3.26 light-years or to 19.2 trillion
        miles.

Parsecs are DISTANCE, not time, no matter what Trek says. One could
go so many parsec/sec (REALLY fast) or parsec/year (still a good bit
faster than light).

If Trek really says 'parasec' (pa-ra-sec), then it's a perfectly
acceptable made-up science fiction term that (from its construction)
must mean "a kind of second". Again from Webster:

para-: [Greek: akin to] prefix. 1. beside, alongside of, beyond,
        aside from (parathyroid); 2. closely related to
        (paraldehyde); 3. faulty, abnormal (paresthesia), b.
        associated in a subsidiary or accessary manner
        (paramedical), c. closely resembling, almost (paratyphoid).

One can only guess that at high warp speeds time ain't what it seems
compared to the rest of the universe so time flies in parasecs???

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #4
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 84 1548-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Jan 1984        Volume 9 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:
          Books - Anderson & Kingsbury & Orwell & Wolfe &
                  Matriarchal Societies & Sime/Gen & Star Trek,
          Films - Favorite SF Movies & Vector Graphics,
          Television - Dr. Who,
          Miscellaneous - Speed of Light & Parsecs & 
                  Simultaneous Multiple Adventurer Games

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 84 09:15 PST (Thursday)
From: Hallgren.pa@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #2

In answer to the title request:

The story is IN THE BONE by Poul Anderson.  I have it in an old IF
magazine, and it is in one of his collections.  Pretty good story.
I was surprised after reading the story that Poul Anderson had
written it.  It has some of the flavor of his AFTER DOOMSDAY.  I
wish Anderson would write a few more short stories set in the
"Flandry" era.

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 5 Jan 84 00:29:50-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: COURTSHIP RITE by Donald Kingsbury

If you're going to review a book, no matter how half-heartedly,
please get the title right!  (Especially when the book was a Hugo
nominee and won at least one award.)  RITE OF PASSAGE is a
well-known book by Alexei Panshin and has nothing to do with this
book, which, by the way, is one of the most inventive AND enjoyable
I've ever read, despite the baby's-liver pate.  I recommend it to
everyone -- thought it was better than at least three of the other
Hugo nominees.

                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 1984 21:24-EST
From: Dragon  <Monica.Cellio@cmu-cs-spice>
Subject: Orwell and "predictions"

I see "1984" as a warning at most, not as prediction.  I do not know
enough about Orwell or 1948 England to know if it was intended as a
satire of socialism, as is often said these days.

                                                        -D

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:56:02-PST
From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta,
Subject: Urth of the New Sun?

I am currently reading "The Citadel of the Autarch", Volume 4 of
Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun". There is mention in the author's
biography in the back of the book that Wolfe is working on another
novel dealing with the same period ("Urth of the New Sun"?)...Anyone
have any word on this book?  I've never seen it in any bookstores.

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp.
   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 1984 1934-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Matriarchal societies

Re: the inquiry about matriarchies in science fiction:

A quick pass over my library yields a number of books containing
matriarchal societies:

The Pride of Chanur - C. J. Cherryh - Alien females behave like the
  saltiest of sailors while the males lounge around the home planet.

A World Between - Norman Spinrad - Fairly crude sexual allegory that
  contrasts a lesbian society, a Faustian male culture,
  and a sexually balanced, albeit gaggingly mellow, planet.

The Female Man - Joanna Russ - Have not actually read.

Pursuit of the Screamer - Ansen Dibell - Women stay on top in a
  low-tech trading culture by means of telepathy and alien female
  mercenaries.

Watch the Northwind Rise - Robert Graves - Here's an obscure one.
  This is a utopian novel by the well-known English poet.  In it he
  expresses his ideas about how the archetypal figure he calls The
  White Goddess might manifest herself in a future society.

The Tombs of Atuan - Ursula Le Guin - Middle volume of the Earthsea
  trilogy.  A society run by priestesses.

Then there are the stories of cultures with permanent queens.  Women
aren't actually in charge at the lower levels, but a queen is the
source of ultimate authority.  In this category you find:

The Snow Queen - Joan Vinge
The Black Flame - Stanley Weinbaum
She - H. Rider Haggard

plus a whole lot of A. Merritt stuff which I don't have on hand.
Most of this counts as male fantasy rather than as serious
speculation as to how women would run things.  The same goes for the
stories of Amazon races, of which I can't think of any good examples
right now.  Hope this helps your data gathering.

/jlr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Dec 83 13:38 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs@CSNet-Relay>
Subject: Sime/Gen - Star Trek

     Bill Beikman stated that MOLT BROTHER by Jacqueline Lichtenberg
was part of her Sime/Gen universe; this is not accurate.  MOLT
BROTHER is the first (and, thus far, the only) volume of a series
called Book of the First Lifewave.  Jacqueline seems to write in
series.  Jean Lorrah's novel, SAVAGE EMPIRE, is totally unrelated to
Sime/Gen.  It is also the first volume of a series; the second
volume, DRAGON LORD OF THE SAVAGE EMPIRE has been out for some time,
and the third, CAPTIVES OF THE SAVAGE EMPIRE, is due out from
Berkley in February, at which time the other volumes will be
re-released by Berkley, to replace the old Playboy Paperbacks
editions.

     Jean Lorrah got started in Star Trek fan fiction, and she has
sold a novel to Pocket: THE VULCAN ACADEMY MURDERS.  And while I'm
messily segueing into Star Trek, Diane Duane (author of THE WOUNDED
SKY, perhaps the best ST novelization yet, and certainly on a par
with THE ENTROPY EFFECT) is also finishing up a new Star Trek novel;
she read bits of it at Worldcon, and it sounds excellent.

     Diane Duane (as the segue comes to a close) is an excellent
author; may I recommend THE DOOR INTO FIRE as a must-read book?  It
will finally be coming back into print this spring sometime (it was
part of the ill-fated Dell line), and its sequel will finally see
print at about the same time.  I have heard good things about her
Young Adult novel (YA the way Heinlein is considered a YA author for
his novels like THE STAR BEAST), which is called SO YOU WANT TO BE A
WIZARD? and just came out in hardcover from Delacorte.
                                         Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Jan 1984 11:58:05-PST
From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta,
Subject: Fave SF movies

I'd like to get some discussion going of people's favorite SF movies
(use your discretion in defining what an 'SF' movie is...). I would
enjoy seeing some reasons behind the selections.

To get things rolling, here are some of mine:

2001, A Space Odyssey -- Numero Uno, bar none. I think this is
     the ONLY true Science Fiction movie ever made. Scientifically
     accurate and thought provoking. Although the special effects
     seem dated now, they are still fantastic! I think my favorite
     effect was the shot of the space station (with the approaching
     Pan Am liner in synch) that closes on the station until the
     camera seems to pass right through it. And the music! I could
     go on...

Alien -- A good old haunted house story set in space. Good
     acting, excellent effects (love that monster, small and
     large!), magnificent sets (loved the lived-in look of the
     Nostromo) and enough chills and thrills for ten other films.
     Great fun!

Frankenstein -- The one and only Boris Karloff version. Great
     campy acting!  Set the style for countless films of this type
     for decades to come, but none approached the original.

The Star Wars Saga -- What can one say that hasn't already been
     said a thousand times? Simply a magnificent achievement.

Invasion of the Body Snatchers -- Both versions. 50's version
     is a great subtle commentary on the McCarthy Era. Remake is
     also quite good (although not AS good...). Loved the appearance
     of Kevin McCarthy (star of the original) in the remake (did YOU
     catch him??).

Altered States -- A much maligned film. Very good acting
     (William Hurt can do no wrong in my opinion) and very chilling
     scenes (the halucinations (sp?)  in the cave and the isolation
     tank scenes stand out). Although it fails somewhat in the final
     scenes, this is still an excellent film.

Close Encounters of the Third Kind -- I really liked this movie
     although a lot of people seem to consider it a lesser-quality
     film by Spielburg.  I thought the acting was first-rate, the
     pace relentless and the music outstanding. Favorite scenes:
     Opening in the desert, crowds in India, final encounter. I did
     not particularly like the added scenes in the 'special
     edition'; should have left well enough alone.

I could probably think of more, but I'll stop here and leave the
door open for others' opinions. Note: except for 2001, there is no
significance to the order of the above list.

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp.
   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 1:19:22 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Re:  E&S Vector Graphics in movies?

The E&S Picture Systemes (model numbers 1, 2, and 300) are big
vector guys.  E&S was used for the simulator display in The Wrath of
Khan (the Kobimishi Maru or what ever).  It was also used to create
the opening sequence in TRON.  This is the one that starts out with
the appearance of one falling into a graph paper tunnel and having
MICR letters flying at you.  These were both done with their VECTOR
equipment.  Our E&S salesman had these and other things on a Brag
video tape that he brought out once.  He also mentioned that one of
their engineers had written his name backwards in the corner of the
screen on the TWOK sequences.  However, we single framed through
them on the VHS version of it and were unable to find any traces of
it.  It was easier finding the magic hole in the fractal mountain.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 83 19:26:08-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!futrelle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Official DrWho Scarf - (nf)

This is the official BBC pattern for Tom Baker's multicolored scarf
as Dr. Who.  I want to thank Bill Scheaffer for getting me the
pattern and my Grandmother for knitting the scarf, which I am
wearing right now.

Requirements: #9 kniting needle
1 ounce balls of yarn as follows:
3 purple
6 camel                                The tassels are made from
3 bronz                                1 inch lenghs of yarn.  7
3 musta                                tassels on each end, comb-
4 rust                                 ining all 7 colors.
3 grey
4 greenish brown (referred to as "green")
Cast on 60 stitches (Mine is 40 and is almost a foot wide.  40
should lengthen the scarf a little).  Always slip the first stitch.
Knit in the following order:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
8 purple rows
52 camel
16 bronze
10 mustard
22 rust
8 purple
20 green
8 mustard
28 camel
14 rust
8 bronze
10 purple
42 green
8 mustard
16 grey
8 rust
54 camel
10 purple
12 green
8 mustard
18 rust
8 purple
38 bronze
10 camel
8 grey
40 rust
14 mustard
20 green
88 purple
42 camel
12 bronze
20 grey
8 rust
12 purple
6 camel
14 mustard
54 green
16 rust
12 grey
8 mustard
20 bronze
10 purple
12 camel
32 grey
10 rust
10 mustard              CAST OFF

------------------------------

Date: Thu 5 Jan 84 01:31:50-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Speed of Light

The speed of light is rarely the same, it depends on the material it
is passing through. (A lot slower in dielectrics.) The density of the
vacuum is probably greater closer to the sun.  Also aren't there
gravitational effects, or do space and time change proportionally?

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 0:45:04 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V8 #135

My favorite was always Battlestar Gallactica which used microns and
centons as units of both time and distance.

The Menagerie features a visit to the Talos star system (in
violation of Star Fleet General order 7) which makes the beings
Talosians of no particular religious persuasion.

Let's do the time warp, again!

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 0:49:08 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: STAR TREK Origins.

You forgot to mention the unsucessful MANTRAP pilot which was later
redone as an episode.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 83 19:44:16-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 'parsecs' as time or distance -- - (nf)

I loved this "explanation," and I bet if it you forwarded it to
net.astro.expert they would indeed tell you where to go!

        :-) Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 84 03:35:21 EST
From: Charles <MCGREW@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: SMAuG-Lovers Digests

Hello,

   The Simultaneous Multiple Adventurer Game (SMAuG) group publishes
the 'SMAuG-Lovers Digest', a compilation of mail regarding software
and game issues.  Format is like the SF-Lovers digests, but without
the "today's topic" field.  The SMAuG project is an attempt to write
a multi-player role-playing game that incorporates the complexity of
a Zork-like game, but allowing player interaction and action and
interaction with semi-intelligent Non-Player Characters (NPCs).

   If you would like to receive these digests, please send a request
to mcgrew.smaug@RU-BLUE.  They will be mailed out one at a time
until all who ask to receive them are 'up-to-date' (there are 16
digests.)  People wishing to contribute thoughts, opinions, or
brickbats to the SMAuG project, send mail to SMAUG@RUTGERS.

Thanks,

Charles

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #5
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jan 84 1406-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Jan 1984        Volume 9 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:
         Books - Bradley & Brooks & MacAvory & Maccaffrey &
                 Cats in SF & Book Request,
         Films - Indiana Jones & Upcoming SF Movies,
         Miscellaneous - Parsecs & Escaping Black Holes & 
                         Judge Dredd Inquiry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 1984 15:14:34-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Darkover

  chronology: THE FORBIDDEN TOWER \\immediately// follows THE SPELL
SWORD; as little as 2 days could lapse between them. Since Ellemir
has several children in THENDARA HOUSE this must be some years later
(more precise number of years from Aleki's memories of the missing
surveyor (= Anndra/ Andrew Carr). Also, SHARRA'S EXILE is
effectively a rewrite of SWORD OF ALDONES, not simply concurrent
with it.
   preference: DARKOVER LANDFALL is before the end of the shift from
fairly straight adventure to more involved stories about people
(going by when written, not where fitting---note that THE BLOODY SUN
started as a pot boiler and was heavily rewritten and expanded after
the shift), but it is [important] because it provides a major
underpinning for most of the subsequent books; it was written to
contradict Lester del Rey's assertion that a crashed spaceship
retaining a modest amount of its technology would inevitably foster
a similarly technological society. DL and "Vai Dom" (one of the
shorts) are justification for much of the history that shapes the
later books.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Jan 84 16:15:22 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin)

  I found "Two to Conquer" by M.Z. Bradley, to be an extremely well
written novel - with many thought provoking images.
  It is my favorite novel in all the Darkover chronicles - in it MZB
demonstrates profound insight in the development and
characterization of "virtual twins", one a lord of Darkover - the
other a Terra criminal and rapist, both warped by the societies
that produced them.

                                                      Steve

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 84 16:29:03-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!rlw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Elfstones

The Sword of Shannara was obviously a narrative put to a D&D
adventure.

Is the sequel the same sort of thing?

--Dick Wexelblat

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 84 17:25:41 PST (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #2

Re: "R.A.MacAvory's "Damiyano" NOT A SPOILER" from Sonia
Schwartzberg

First of all, the author's name is spelled 'MacAvoy'.  Also, the
novel is called 'Damiano'.

Second: I refer to your statement, "[Tea With the Black Dragon] was
not without its flaws, but these flaws were fairly easy for me to
overlook..."

Well, yes, I suppose that non-existent flaws WOULD be easy to
overlook... Seriously, I would be most gratified if you would
elaborate upon the flaws that you found with TWTBD.  I personally
found the book flawless, but it is entirely possible that I've
missed something.  And I care enough about the book and the author
to hear anyone's opinion, for or against.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Jan 1984 08:25:04-PST
From: Dan L Pierson <decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson@Shasta>
Subject: Re: Dinosaur Planet

According to a talk by Anne McCaffery at a mid-70s Balticon, the
Dinosaur planet series was commissioned by a British(?) publisher
that hoped to duplicate the success of dragons.  Unfortunately, the
publisher pretty much put here in a straight jacket that called for
a very superficial action story without the depth of her best work.
At the time she was planning to do some "real" books in the Dinosaur
planet setting after the contract expired.

Since we have seen nothing after the first book I have no idea what
happened with all of this.  I certainly agree with her poor opinion
of Dinosaur Planet - it doesn't approach the Pern books, or any of
her other good work.

                                                dan

Arpanet: pierson%digital@rand-relay
Usenet:  ...!decvax!decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 84 19:31:49-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: title request - (nf)

>A story about an alien landing and talking to cats for a while,
>making no attempt at contacting "monkey people" (or some
>similar term) and leaving--taking with her the narrator's cat,
>whom he had followed, which is how he found out about this.
>Just before leaving, she asks the cats whether she should
>destroy the monkeys, who obviously deserve it for having kept
>the cats in bondage and such nonsense, and they defend us (we
>get to hear her translation of their speech).
>
>Any ideas as to title, author, where collected?
>
>Also, I am looking for good cat/sf books/stories.
>So far I've got Andre Norton's stuff, and The Wanderer by Fritz
>Leiber

Sounds like Cynthia Felice's novel *Godsfire*. Even if it isn't the
same book, *Godsfire* is an ok cat/sf book.

Also, Leiber has done three stories about Gummitch (2 with Psycho),
"Space Time for Springers" and two others. Try looking in *The Best
of Fritz Leiber* or *The Book of Fritz Leiber*. The third story was
in the most recent anniversary issue of F&SF.

For a cat-like race of people, try C.J. Cherryh's *The Pride of
Chanur*.

Robert Heinlein's *Door Into Summer* has a cat who seems to affect
more readers than does the protagonist, though it appears only in
the beginning and at the end.

Have a look at Mervyn Peake's Gormengast trilogy -- the cats aren't
major characters or anything, but they add a nice touch, and the
books are wonderful.

Another semi-feline race is Larry Niven's Kzinti, in many of his
Known Space books and stories.

Joanna Russ has a new book of stories out called *The Zanzibar Cat*.
I haven't read it yet, but I assume the title story is about a cat.

Vonnegut's *Cat's Cradle* has nothing to do with cats.
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 1984  15:32 EST (Thu)
From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS <UC.ART@MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: looking for a book

Has anyone ever read a novel which involves a private detective
agency whose operatives wear invulnerable white suits?  Other
notable features of this book include an artificially intelligent
spaceship and an island called Iskola.  Iskola was a rich
scientist's idea of the perfect research environment.  I read it a
long time ago and that's all I can remember.  Thanx for any help.
Have Fun!

------------------------------

Date: Thu 5 Jan 84 16:55:15-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: IJ:ToD

There was a trailer for Indiana Jones:Temple of Doom at the last
flick I saw.  It wasn't very specific.  Mostly Harrison Ford duking
it out around the globe.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jan 84 13:53:51 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: Indiana Jones ... and other upcoming sf movies

To my knowledge, no one other than Harrison Ford is repeating a role
in the new Indiana Jones movie.  In particular, Karen Allen is
definitely not; there will be a different female co-star.  Spielberg
is directing, Lucas producing.  I can't swear to it, but I think the
screenplay is by the same husband and wife team who wrote "American
Graffiti" for Lucas. (the Huycks ?)

"Conan: Prince of Thieves" is due out this summer.  I think Milius
is directing it, again.  "Streets of Fire" is due out some time in
late winter or spring.  It's a futuristic view of Los Angeles, where
rock and roll and violent gangs rule the streets.  It's being
directed by Walter Hill ("48 Hrs", "Southern Comfort", "The Long
Riders"), who specializes in action movies, and stars Diane Lane and
Michael Pare.  Last I heard, "Dune" is set for the summer after
next.  The next Star Trek movie will probably be out next Christmas.
Disney has been working on an animated version of "The Black
Cauldron" for years now; it must be nearly ready.  "2010: Odyssey
II" has been announced for Christmas.  It's to be directed by Peter
Hyams ("Capricorn I", "Star Chamber").  He's something of a hack,
and he's definitely no Kubrick.

                                                Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Jan 1984 07:58:40-PST
From: Roger H. Goun <decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@Shasta>
Subject: Re: New Indiana Jones flick

I bought the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" video cassette and was
surprised to find a trailer for "Indiana Jones and the Temple of
Doom" on it before the movie I paid for.  The one quick shot of
Jones (saying, "Trust me") in the trailer seems to be a clip from
"Raiders," unfortunately.

                                        -- Roger Goun

UUCP:   decvax!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun
ARPA:   decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@SU-Shasta
USPS:   Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13;
        77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749
AT&T:   (617) 568-6311

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 83 19:43:47-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Parsecs - (nf)

No, a parsec is the distance from which a star observed from
opposite sides of Earth's orbit is seen to shift one arc-second of
parallax.  Not only does it depend on Earth's orbit, but it also
depends on the measurement of an an arc-second, which is arbitrarily
(from a universal point of view) set at 1/1296000 of a complete
circle.  Poorly phrased, but you get the idea?  You could use a
parrad, for a parallax of one radian (A radian is a universal
measurement, pi is pi everywhere), except this still depends on the
radius of the Earth's orbit.  And you can't use any other radius
either, because there's no universal radius.

I say can't, but obviously you can use such a measurement.  I
suspect in a future galactic standard there would be many differing
local standards of measurement, and just a few universal standards,
based on powers of 2, times the fundamental constants.  The only
difference in universal standards, of course, would be scaling
factors and names; that's why they're called universal.

Anyone care to post suggestions?  Do we care:-?

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 83 19:46:39-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

How to escape our galaxy's blow-up (black hole at center, etc,
etc,)?

See Larry Niven, "Ringworld", "Ringworld Engineers", "Tales of KNown
Space", and whatever the novel was that was the short story
"Rammer".

While you're at it, take a look at `Sins of the Fathers' and
`Lifeboat Earth' by Stanley Schmidt. (There may be another book in
the story line. If so, I'd like to hear about it.)

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 84 10:47:47 EST
From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Judge Dredd Inquiry

 I have just recently become interested in the Judge Dredd comic
strip. What I would like to know is this: 1)how many trade
paperbacks are currently being sold in this series? 2)does anyone
know where JD posters can be bought?  3) Is there anything else
available, besides the aforementioned stuff / Eagle reprints /
miniatures / and the board game by Games Workshop?
 Any info would be greatly appreciated!!

*Steve*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #6
Date: 10 Jan 84 1551-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jan 84 1551-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:
           Books - Asimov & Dickson (2 msgs) & MacLeish &
                   Russell (2 msgs) & Matriarchal Societies & 
                   Book Reviews
           Films - Computer Images and Tool Makers vs Film Makers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Jan 84 23:04:48-EST
From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Asimov hospitalized

From the latest Time magazine:

HOSPITALIZED: Isaac Asimov, 63, sci-fi and nonfiction word factory.
Resting comfortable after triple bypass heart surgery.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 84 11:42:31-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: none (story title requested)

>>I'm trying to locate a science fiction story (it appeared in a
>>collection of short stories) that had the following plot elements:
>>      1)      Took place in the future
>>      2)      The hero was sent out from earth in a single man
>>              "spaceship" on a mission of general discovery
>>              (The spaceship is in quotes because it was more
>>              than a spaceship.. it was an extension of himself).
>>      ...

I am certain that the story you describe is by Gordon Dickson, and I
believe that the title is "In the Bone."  I think it was written in
the late '60s.  It should be available in one of the paperback
collections of Dickson's stories which is currently in print.

                           Bruce Cohen
                           UUCP:   ...!teklabs!tekecs!brucec
                           CSNET:  tekecs!brucec@tektronix
                           ARPA:   tekecs!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 1984  15:36 EST (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>

I believe the story can be found in Danger, Human! by Gordon
Dickson.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 83 12:37:35-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!drutx!druxt!mcq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Prince Ombra

Just for the record, I had never heard of Roderick MacLeish either,
but one of the critical excerpts on the inside cover tells me that
Mr. Hedrick was either entirely correct, or close; MacLeish
apparently is a commentator on National Public Radio, which may be
operated by PBS for all I know.  'Nuff said?

What I really want to do is put in another recommendation for this
book.

This is one of the better works I've read recently.  I think it
qualifies as something special.  It reminds me of some of the better
work of Ursula K. LeGuin in that it is VERY finely crafted and
displays the incredible ability to capture the correct mood that I
associate with LeGuin.  More than anything else, I am impressed by
MacLeish's intimacy with his characters, and how natural and "right"
he makes them seem.

This book presents the conflict between mythological good and evil
in a way that makes its appearance in an ordinary setting
believable.  It manages to use the stuff of old legends to examine
the motivations of very real characters for their actions.  There
are very few fantasy novels that can be said to provide the feeling
for the human condition that make them "literature".  I find that
when this IS done the result is remarkable, and I include "Prince
Ombra" in this very special class.

For anyone who reads this newsgroup with an eye towards anything
outside "hard core" SF (and I don't mean to knock anyone for only
wanting to occupy their time with writers like Hogan - please, not
one of these fights) READ this one.

                                Bob McQueer
                                ihnp4!druxt!mcq

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 84 14:16:18 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #3
From: Chin.pa@PARC-MAXC.ARPA

"SENTINALS FROM SPACE" was written by Eric Frank Russell.  It was
about a future society where mutants abounded because of the
exposure of radiation to spacemen.
I believe the ending revealed that the death of a person caused his
transformation into a higher form of life...

Also, I have read three of Philip E. High's books---specifically,

        The Prodigal Sun
        No Truce With Terra (?)
        Twin Planets

I found them quite good, but cannot seem to find any other books he
may have written.

Phil Chin
Versatec Corp.
2805 Bowers Avenue
Santa Clara, CA 95051

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Jan 1984 11:58:15-PST
From: Len Alanurm <decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm@Shasta>
Subject: SENTINALS FROM SPACE

In the most recent issue (of which I just started reading) I saw you
wanted to know who wrote the above book.  I believe it was Eric
Russell (I read it 15 years ago, approx, so my memory is quite
fresh).

Incidentally, the majority of the action took place on Venus, not
Mars.  There were actually two mutants per planet, with the ones
from Earth visiting Venus where they were "captured".  The plot also
included the fact that mutants were acceptable in that culture, e.g.
a mutant could read minds, or start fires, or levitate, or hypnotize
BUT one mutant could only do one thing.  A multi-talented mutant was
unknown and theoretically impossible.  Hence, when the pairs of
mutants on the individual planets were discovered, they were
interrogated with their eventual demise.

The global plot of the story was that the human body was merely the
larval form of a more powerful non-corporeal being.  These beings
from time to time would enter the body of a soon to be dead person
to help guide humanity through the rough spots.

If you find any faults with the above, let me know.  I used to
really like that particular story (the male from earth was David and
the one from Venus was Charles).

p.s. I did not send this out to the list in general because being
new I have yet to find out where it actually goes.  If you know, let
me know.  If you want to forward this so the world knows, feel free!

-Joe

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who provided
the same information.

Clark Hallgren (Hallgran.pa@parc-maxc)
Bill Russell (Russell@nyu-cmcl1)
Bruce Cohen (hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!brucec@ucb-vax)]

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 84 17:36:09-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Matriarchal societies

A fine book in this vein is _When Voiha Wakes_, by Joy Chant (also
the author of _Red Moon and Black Mountain_).  It concerns a society
in which women are the farmers, rulers, and property-owners of
society.  Men are craftsmen, supposedly because 'it allows them to
make up for not being able to bear children'.

This is a far subtler book than many role-reversals; it pays due
attention to the logical consequences of a society's beliefs.  (For
instance, since men leave their families at an early age to join
craftsmens' guilds, their primary socialization is as guild-members.
Women see themselves as members of families.  Both guilds and
families have secrets to which members of the other sex are not
privy.  As a result, sex relationships tend to be short and shallow.
What can you discuss with a social alien?  For long-term
companionship, people tend to stick to members of their own sex.)

The book is more than a thought-experiment, though; it rotates
around the lives of two people, and we see their society through
their eyes, not through those of an omniscient observer.  It's a
romantic novel and a thoughtful one.  I recommend it highly.

Betsy Hanes Perry
decvax!dartvax!betsy

P.S.  Does ANYONE out there know if/when Joyce Ballou Gregorian
plans to publish a sequel to 'Castledown'?  'The Broken Citadel' and
'Castledown' are supposed to be two parts of a trilogy, but it was
eight years between their publication dates.  It's a long time
between books...

  -- Betsy Perry decvax!dartvax!betsy

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Date: 7 Jan 84 18:02:56 EST
Subject: Subject: High & Wolfe

I remember Phillip E. High for one half of an Ace double which I
bought back in 1968 or so.  I bought it for the flipside of the
book, Destination Saturn, by David Grinnell & Lin Carter (a wild and
funny screwball adventure) but the High novel turned out to be a
ratlin' good adventure: Invader on My Back.  Invaders of Earth have
positioned sea-urchin shaped psi transmitters in orbit to prevent
the folks on Earth from catching onto the plot.  Only borderline
telepaths can see the invaders or their hardware, and the invaders
have rigged it so that some kind of heterodyne backwash from their
telepathy causes normal Earthlings to instantly fear and hate them.
Yeah, hokey, but damn, did it move.  I don't believe I ever saw
anything else by High on the stands.  I think I might t have bought
it if I had.
Gene Wolfe has indeed finished a sequel to the Severian novels.  I
spoke with him about it last year, when it was in fact titled "Urth
of the New Sun."  I heard that it may in fact be called "Castle of
the Otter" now, for reasons obscure.  I do know that it's finished
and in production, but it has not yet been published.  All I know
about it is that it contains a character who is an intelligent
spacesuit.  I only discovered that (Gene is somewhat closed- mouthed
about works in progress--as he should be) because he heard me
discussing a story I had just completed starring an intelligent
spacesuit.  I guess I beat him into print with it ("Borovsky`s
Hollow Woman", OMNI, October 1983) but this may, in fact, be the
year that Everybody Wrote About Intelligent Spacesuits.  We'll see.

73,

Jeff Duntemann

DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 6 January 1984, 18:32-PST
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: computer mangled images

    Date: 1 Jan 84 13:40:43-PST (Sun)
    From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: Re: Holy hologram!

    Kevin is quite right, the rasters do not imply computer
    generated, merely computer massaged.  ...  As an example of the
    short term future, go to see TRON: the story's a little (a
    LITTLE?) weak, but the graphics are great, an innovative
    combination of computer generated with computer mangled images
    is quite effective.
     -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG

As far as I can remember, there were no images in TRON which were
the result of "computerized image processing".  There were some
scenes (and elements of other scenes) which were fully synthetic,
computer generated imagery (this is what I worked on at triple-I:
Solar Sailer, Sark's Carrier, the MCP and his mesa and the Sea of
Simulation).  And of course there were scenes which were extensively
reprocessed by photographic techniques (the "look" of the characters
in the Electronic World was all done photographically from the
original principal photography which was done in 65mm B&W).  There
were also composites of both techniques (any scene where you saw
both characters and vehicles (eg Tron, Flynn and Yori on the deck of
the Solar Sailer)).  These composites were done in a somewhat unique
way: not on an optical printer, but rather right there on the
animation camera during the frame-by-frame rephotography.

-Craig W. Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 6 January 1984, 19:03-PST
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: tool makers vs film makers

    Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 1:19:22 EST
    From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
    Subject: Re:  E&S Vector Graphics in movies?

    The E&S Picture Systems (model numbers 1, 2, and 300) are big
    vector guys.  E&S was used for the simulator display in The
    Wrath of Khan (the Kobimishi Maru or what ever).  It was also
    used to create the opening sequence in TRON.  ... These were
    both done with their VECTOR equipment.  Our E&S salesman had
    these and other things on a Brag video tape that he brought out
    once.  ...  -Ron

It is true that the E&S staff (I think it was people from their
planetarium projector division) did do some instrumentaion graphics
for TWOK.  However, in general E&S is not in the commercial
production business.  Probably anything else done for the movies or
TV with E&S equipment was done by someone else who IS in that
business.  Specifically the "Title Sequence" and "Flynn's Ride"
from TRON were done by people at Robert Able & Associates, the
"Death Star Simulation" seen in the pre-attack briefing scene in
RotJ was done on an E&S by the people at Lucasfilm's Computer
Development Group.  On the other hand, there is a long established
tradition in Hollywood of getting a hold of someone else's demo reel
and taking credit for the images.

-Craig W. Reynolds

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #7
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 84 1142-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Jan 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:
             Books - MaCaffrey & MacLeish & Cats in SF,
             Films - Computer Images & Fave SF movies &
                     Reviews (2 msgs) & Star Wars,
             Television - Dr. Who,
             Miscellaneous - Parsecs (2 msgs) & The Speed of Light & 
                             A Universal System of Units

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hjjh@ut-ngp.ARPA
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 84 05:12:08 CST
Subject: McCaffrey

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Resurgence of Dinosaurs ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Writes Judy-Lynn del Rey in BEYOND, the Del Rey Books newsletter--

"Anne McCaffrey flew into town this week....  She was shlepping the
manuscript for DINOSAUR PLANET SURVIVORS.  At the end of 1984 we
will find out at last what happens to our intrepid heroes who, when
last seen, were hiding in cold storage from the heavyworlders.  So
you can stop writing and asking about the sequel to DINOSAUR
PLANET... the book is on its way."

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 9:34:29-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Prince Ombra

   This is a sort of counterpoint to a favorable review of Prince
   Ombra.

   I recently read the book and was disappointed.  The age level
   aimed at seemed to be mid-teens.  Most of the concepts,
   particularly the classic hero versus the force of darkness were
   not particularly original, nor particularly believable.

   The plot seemed essentially simplistic, and like most books of
   this type the final confrontation with the evil Prince of
   Darkness was about as believable as Dorothy throwing the pail of
   water on the witch in the Wizard of Oz.


   We're not talking about an incredibly bad book by any means,
   there were some nice touches.  But any reasonably sophisticated
   reader of F&SF is going to have seen this one go by too many
   times before to really enjoy it.


   Change of subject --

      Is anyone else getting tired of all the retread fantasy novels
      on the market today?  There doesn't seem to be a spark of
      innovation in any ten of them.  And they all seem to be number
      x in the new XXXXX cycle.  I'm tired of badly written,
      imitative fantasy and I'm tired of serials.  And there is *no*
      new hard sf being published to speak of.  As a friend of mine
      is wont to say, 'What's the world *coming* to?'


      I guess it's time to start reading serious literature.



dann

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 21:34:02 EST (Monday)
Subject: Here Kitty Kitty Kitty
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-maxc.Arpa>

Some other books involving cats (off the top of my head):

"Breed to Come" Andre Norton, one of my favorites when I was 13-16.
Cats/rats/dogs evolve intelligence after man flees a polluted Earth.
Then people try to come back.

"Eye of Cat" Roger Zelazny.  A cat-like alien from a zoo helps his
captor find a criminal, and then gets to hunt his captor as his fee.

"Doorways in the Sand" Roger Zelazny.  Aliens disguised as dogs,
kangaroos, wombats, rocks, donkeys, plus an incidental cat.

"Space Cat", "Space Cat Visits Venus", "Space Cat Meets Mars",
"Space Cat and the Kittens" ???.  1950's children's sf (jungle
Venus, vanishing civilizatons on Mars, 50's rocketships, etc. GREAT
stuff, wish I was 7 again.


Will look for more.....

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 6 January 1984, 18:37-PST
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: computer mangled images

    Date: 1 Jan 84 13:40:43-PST (Sun)
    From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: Re: Holy hologram!

    Kevin is quite right, the rasters do not imply computer
    generated, merely computer massaged.  ...  As an example of the
    short term future, go to see TRON: the story's a little (a
    LITTLE?) weak, but the graphics are great, an innovative
    combination of computer generated with computer mangled images
    is quite effective.
     -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG

As far as I can remember, there were no images in TRON which were
the result of "computerized image processing".  There were some
scenes (and elements of other scenes) which were fully synthetic,
computer generated imagery (this is what I worked on at triple-I:
Solar Sailer, Sark's Carrier, the MCP and his mesa and the Sea of
Simulation).  And of course there were scenes which were extensively
reprocessed by photographic techniques (the "look" of the characters
in the Electronic World was all done photographically from the
original principal photography which was done in 65mm B&W).  There
were also composites of both techniques (any scene where you saw
both characters and vehicles (eg Tron, Flynn and Yori on the deck of
the Solar Sailer)).  These composites were done in a somewhat unique
way: not on an optical printer, but rather right there on the
animation camera during the frame-by-frame rephotography.

-Craig W. Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Jan 84 14:30:46 EST
From: Gregory Parkinson <Parkinson@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Fave SF movies

Two of my favorites were missing from the list -

BLADE RUNNER - My friends who read the book first liked this much
more than those who hadn't.  I think the book is one of Phil Dick's
best and the movie is a good illustration which succeeds in
capturing much of the FEELING of the book.  The cinematography
managed to mix a scary but reasonable extrapolation of L.A. with
hollywood detective movie archetypes which worked very well.
Knowing the plot beforehand helped clear up a lot of the
ambiguities.

SOLARIS - I saw the uncut version in L.A. in 1975 and loved it.  My
friends saw a cut version a few years later and were bored and
confused.  I recall being overcome with the feeling of STRANGENESS
the film got across in describing the planet's intelligence.  Anyone
else see the long version and feel the same?  This is definitely one
of my all time favorites.

Greg Parkinson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Jan 84 17:08:46 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: movie review

"Deathstalker" is a new sword and sorcery movie from Roger Corman's
current exploitation film company.  It looks like it was filmed in
Italy, or possibly Spain.  It will make the rounds of the film
markets one by one, so you may have seen it already, or it may be
out in the next few months.

        "Deathstalker" is pretty bad.  Either the director and
screenwriter (both out of USC film school) haven't the vaguest idea
of how to tell a story, or the film was edited by a chimpanzee.
There is no coherence at all to the plot, which concerns a brawny
hero with a magic sword of power attempting to get the other two
items of power from an evil wizard.  The frequent fight scenes are
choreographed fairly well, by and large.  There are also some
moderately funny lines and sight gags.  The hero, played by Rick
Hill, which may or may not be a pseudonym for an Italian actor, is
better than usual.  That's about all of the good news, though.  The
atmosphere is only intermittently effective, and, as mentioned,
the plot is badly chopped up.  The other actors are serviceable, at
best.  The effects are cheesy.  It should also be mentioned that
there are an awful lot of bare bosoms in this film, as is the wont
in a Roger Corman production.  There is an Amazonian heroine, thrown
as a sop to feminists, no doubt; but she, too, bares her breasts,
and is disposed of rather casually, like most of the other
characters.  It's a big step up from something like "Ator", but it's
not nearly as good as "The Sword and the Sorcerer".

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 1228 EST (Monday)
From: don.provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: SF movies

haven't we gone over movies before?  anyway:

THX1138 - this is my by far and away favorite, even eclipsing 2001.
(but then, 2001 pales after the 15th viewing...)  i must admit that
i'm a big fan of degenerative societies, but i'm sure i would have
been just as impressed with this movie even if i weren't.

Collosus, the Forbin Project - don't write this one off because of
the terrible novel it is based on.  the plot's about the same, but
the trash like the wimpy Forbin and the conniving president was
discarded.  if you've only seen it on TV, you haven't really seen
it.  (on the other hand, if you didn't like it on TV, you probably
won't like it in a theatre.)

Dark Star - an excellent film, the only comic SF movie i know of
(unless you want to consider "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" (not
quite SF) or "Plan 9 from Outer Space" (not intentionally comic)).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 84 10:46:19-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!iuvax!apratt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Question: Powers of Lite Sabres - (nf)

But did Anakin/Darth actually want Obi-Wan to give Luke his (old?)
flashlight?  That's what Ben said. Anakin knew he had a son; who
figured what out? Did Ben know that Luke could only destroy his
father as a Jedi, or did Anakin know that Luke would find him if he
got hold of a Light Saber, or both? Did Obi-Wan screw up *again*?
These and other questions....           -- Allan Pratt
                                                ihnp4!iuvax!apratt

------------------------------

Date: 9 January 1984 09:23 est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK at RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Dr. Who hat question answered ?

Sonia - I assume you are referring to Romana (sp?) as played by
Lalla Ward, and her straw "boat-hat"...don't know how she keeps it
from falling off, but don't ever remember her losing it!  Roz

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 84 1:53:06-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Parsecs? Really, now... - (nf)

Parsecs?

Now wait a minute. I suspect that all this talk about whether or not
George Lucas MEANT to use the term "parsec" incorrectly is a crock.
He was diving into MYTHOLOGY, not SCIENCE FICTION; I don't suspect
that he's losing sleep about this "minor" thing.

If you're interested in talking about trivial parts of the SW movies
(I have some friends who insist that there are no "non-trivial"
parts of the SW movies), you might try to decipher the "baby talk"
that the Jawas used in Star Wars, or the fact that in only ONE PLACE
in the trilogy is written english used. (Where?)

Also, you bet your ass that ILM is using computer graphics a lot.
(Wouldn't you be suprised if they didn't?)

        Jeff Bowles
        Lisle, IL

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 84 20:06:13-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

>>  Could we collect more vacuum nearer the sun?

I would think so.  The sun heats up what particles there are so they
are moving faster, and are farther apart.  Therefore there is 'more
of a vacuum'.

--johnc


            From the Ever-Questioning Mind of
                         johnc
               ...!decvax!dartvax!johnc
                          :->

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 84 10:47:13-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!iuvax!apratt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

Familiar terms, perhaps, but I reiterate: no gunrunner is going to
say, "I made the Miami-San Salvador run in fifty miles!"

------------------------------

From: Joe Buck <buck@NRL-CSS>
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 84 21:20:43 EST
Subject: A universal system of units



... should be based on universal physical constants. One possibility
is a system of units based on c (speed of light), h (Planck's
constant), m (mass of electron), and e (charge of electron). In this
system, the unit of length is h/(mc) and the unit of time is
h/(mc^2). Of course, all these units are very small, we would need a
multiplying factor.  These factors should be powers of two, rather
than ten; different species will have different numbers of fingers
(or whatever), but any species that builds computers will deal in
powers of two, as it's simpler to build devices with two states than
devices with more.

Alternatively, G (the gravitational constant) and/or a0 (Bohr
radius, the radius of the electron's orbit in the Bohr model) could
replace any of c, h, or m. I'm sure there are other possibilities.
The Pioneer 10 picture uses the wavelength emitted by the spin-flip
of monatomic hydrogen - about 21 cm - as a unit in explaining the
height of human beings.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #8
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 84 1325-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 12 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:
          SPECIAL ISSUE - Upcoming Films for 1984 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 13:17:02 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Upcoming Films for 1984

        The L.A. Times entertainment section (Calendar) for Sunday,
January 8th, published a list of all of the films that major studios
are willing to admit that they plan to release in 1984.  The
original list was compiled by Julie Richard.
        Thanks to the following people whose comments are in square
brackets for supplying information to SF-LOVERS:

Reiher@UCLA-CS
Ssmith@USC-ECL
Bakin.ssid@HI-MULTICS

January:

THE GODS MUST BE CRAZY
        Comedy about nomadic African tribesman who discover a
strange object has fallen from a plane and believe it's a magical
gift from the Gods. (Fox Inter. Classics).

February:

PLEIN SUD ("Heat of Desire")
        A fantasy about an intellectual who becomes a man of action
under the tutelage of a beautiful adventuress.  Starring Patrick
Dewaere, Clio Goldsmith, and Jeanne Moreau. [A French film, if you
haven't already guessed, and not too recent, since Dewaere killed
himself early last year - reiher]. (Triumph/Columbia)

March/April

CHILDREN OF THE CORN
        Based on the Stephen King short story about a young couple
traveling across the United States who stumble onto a religious cult
in Nebraska. (New World).

ICEMAN
        The story of a Neanderthal man who is found frozen alive in
glacial ice. Timothy Hutton and Lindsay Crouse star.  Fred Schepisi
("The Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith") directs.  [Probably a good deal
more serious than it sounds at first hearing.  Schepisi is an
Australian with a very good critical reputation, and Hutton is still
hot enough to avoid trash.  Some stills I've seen of the makeup look
very good. - reiher] (Universal)

ICE PIRATES
        Pirates-in-outer-space story with Robert Urich and Mary
Crosby.  (MGM/UA)

LE DERNIER COMBAT
        Four survivors of a planetary catastrophe band together to
make a last stand for the human race.  [surprise, surprise: another
French film] (Triumph/ Columbia)

SPLASH
        Ron Howard directs a comedy about a man's love affair with a
mermaid.  John Candy and Daryl Hannah star. [Looks like Disney
strikes out again - reiher] (Walt Disney Pictures)

May/June

FIRESTARTER
        Adaptation of Stephen King's novel about a little girl (Drew
Barrymore) who turns her fear into a weapon.  WIth George C. Scott,
Martin Sheen, and David Keith. (Universal)

NATIONAL LAMPOON'S JOY OF SEX
        High school students' sexual problems come to the fore in
this film directed by Martha Coolidge (Valley Girl).

GHOSTBUSTERS
        Bill Murray, Dan Ackroyd, and Harold Ramis as
parapsychologists in New York.

GREMLINS
        Joe Dante ["It's a Good Life" segment of "The Twilight Zone:
The Movie" - reiher] directs a Steven Spielberg production about a
cute but malevolent creature.  With Phoebe Cates [That brilliant
actress who distinguished herself by not showing her breasts in
"Private School" - reiher] (Warner Bros.)

INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM
        Harrison Ford and Kate Capshaw have cliff hanging adventures
in this "prequel" to "Raiders of the Lost Ark".  Steven Spielberg
directs.  [The trailer for this looks good, but not as good as
Raiders'.  It seems to be set mostly in the far east, and apparently
features a kid side kick, which could be a mistake.  I'm suspicious
of prequels. - reiher] (Paramount)

THE LAST STARFIGHTER
        Story of an 18-year-old with a talent for video games.
Robert Preston and Lance Guest star. (Universal).

THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT
        A top-secret World War II military experiment is brought to
life in this time travel adventure.  With Michael Pare and Nancy
Allen.  (New World) [For those not up on movie studios, New World
was Roger Corman's old stomping grounds, and specialized in cheap
exploitation films, from beach blanket stuff to Poe ripoffs, with
stopoffs at motorcycle films and topless nurse and student teacher
films, and, of course, the ever popular fifties alien invasion
films.  Many of them were fairly amusing. - reiher]

RED DAWN
        John Milius [who directed "Conan the Barbarian" and "The
Wind and the Lion" - reiher] directs a story of a group of innocents
forced into armed resistance against an invasion of the U.S.  With
Patrick Swayze, C. Thomas Howell and Powers Booth.  [Milius would
have preferred living in the Middle Ages, when he would have had
more chances to kill people in hand-to-hand combat.  His films
reflect this sensibility, for better or worse. -reiher] (MGM/UA)

STAR TREK III:  THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
        The continuing adventures of the Starship Enterprise and the
search for Mr. Spock.  With William Shatner, James Doohan, DeForest
Kelley, and Dame Judith Anderson. [And Christopher Lloyd, of "Taxi",
as the villain. -reiher] Directed by Leonard Nimoy.  (Paramount)
[Looks like a big summer for Paramount -reiher]. [Can a film be
about a search for a director? - ssmith]

STREETS OF FIRE
        Diane Lane and Michael Pare in a rock and roll fantasy about
a soldier of fortune.  Walter Hill ("48 HRS.") directs.  [Coming
attractions look really good, provided you don't mind a lot of
violence. -reiher] (Universal)

July/August

ALL OF ME
        One of the world's richest women, who is dying, arranges to
have her soul transformed into the body of a younger, healthier
woman.  Steve Martin, Lily Tomlin, and Victoria Tennant star.  Carl
Reiner directs.  [A comedy, if you haven't already guessed, which
sounds like it owes something to Spielberg's segment of the "Night
Gallery" pilot. -reiher] (Universal)

CONAN, PRINCE OF THIEVES
        Sequel to "Conan the Barbarian", again starring Arnold
Schwarzeneger.  With Wilt Chamberlain and Grace Jones.  Richard
Fleischer directs the Dino de Laurentiis production.  [Fleischer has
a reputation as a hack director of limited talents. -reiher]
(Universal)

THE NEVERENDING STORY
        A boy's odyssey into a timeless world of fantastic beings.
Wolfgang Petersen ("Das Boot") directs.  [Based on a current best
seller which has already cleaned up in Europe and Japan, this German
film has the largest budget in German film history. -reiher]. [My
award for worst film title, does it relect how boring the film is?
-ssmith] (Warner Bros.)

NIGHT OF THE COMET
        A science fiction comedy about two sisters and the coming of
a fabulous comet.  (Atlantic)

WHERE THE GREEN ANTS DREAM
        Werner Herzog (Fitzcarraldo) directs this film set in
Australia. (Orion Classics). [Okay, probably not a SF film, but
knowing Herzog you will have to classify it as a fantasy -ssmith]

SHEENA OF THE JUNGLE
        Tanya Roberts ("Charlie's Angels") in a feminine twist on
Tarzan.  (Columbia)

November/December:

BABY
        A professor [Fred MacMurray?] and his wife discover a baby
dinosaur in Africa.  [Sounds like Disney's going to take a bath this
year. -reiher] (Disney)

O.C. AND STIGGS
        Robert Altman directs a comedy about two teenage boys on
summer vacation.  [Hmm, I wonder how much like the National Lampoon
stories this can be. -bakin]

DUNE
        Based on Frank Herbert's science fiction novel about
mile-long monsters that devour manlike insects.  Max von Sydow and
Sting star.  David Lynch directs.  [Hey, I'm just copying this
stuff, not making it up.  As I recollect, Sydow is playing Liet
Kynes and Sting is Baron Harkonnen's beloved nephew.  Lynch is a
brilliant stylist and the stills look great. -reiher]. [LONG
AWAITED!! But who came up with this terrible press release?
Milelong monsters = sandworms, ok, but manlike insects??? what book
did this people read? -ssmith] (Universal)

GREYSTOKE: THE LEGEND OF TARZAN, LORD OF THE APES
        Is about Tarzan's boyhood, his repatriation to British
aristocracy, and his return to the jungle.  Ralph Richardson,
Christopher Lambert, and Ian Holm star.  Hugh Hudson ("Chariots of
Fire") directs.  [This is a real labor of love for Hudson, whose
been trying to film it for a very long time.  The actor playing
Tarzan is French, which makes a lot of sense for those who've read
the original book.  The trailer looks impressive and faithful. -
reiher] (Warner Bros.)

LADYHAWKE
        Richard Donner ("Superman") directs a tale of romance and
magic in the Middle Ages.  With Rutger Hauer[chief android in "Blade
Runner" -reiher], Matthew Broderick [from "War Games" -reiher], and
Michelle Pfeiffer.  [Also, John Wood, the scientist in "War Games",
as an evil bishop.  Donner has been trying to down play the sword
and sorcery elements, figuring it will be bad for business what with
the entries in that genre of the last couple years, but it's
obviously fantasy.  There's a lengthy and interesting article on
this $16 million film in the same issue of The L.A. Times Calendar
that has this information. -reiher] (Warner Bros.)

OH GOD III
        George Burns in his first dual role, God and Devil.

STARMAN
        Love story with a science fiction background produced by
Michael Douglas.  (Columbia)

2010
        Sequel to "2001: A Space Odyssey".  Peter Hyams directs this
return to Jupitor's moons to learn the fate of astronaut David
Bowman and HAL the computer.  [Hyams ("Capricorn One") is no great
shakes as a director.  Keir Dullea has signed, and I think they got
hold of the actor who dubbed HAL's lines, as well. -reiher] [Stop
Dave my mind is going...We'll see what happen without Kubrick
directing...Anybody know who Peter Hyams is and what he has directed
before?? -ssmith] (MGM/UA)


No release date

DREAM ONE
        A ten-year-old boy is magically transported to a strange
dream world.  With Nipsey Russell and Harvey Keitel. [Talk about
your odd couples. -reiher] (Columbia)

HEAVEN SENT
        Herbert Ross ("The Turning Point") directs a story of a
youth who time-trips himself backwards until he and his parents are
the same age.  (Embassy)

THE MUPPETS TAKE MANHATTAN

SUPERGIRL
        Superman's cousin, Kara (Helen Slater), clashes with a
sorceress.  Also starring Peter O'Toole, Faye Dunaway, and Mia
Farrow.  Jeannot Szwarc ("Somewhere in Time") directs.  [Szwarc was
the director who sank "Jaws II".  Another hack. -reiher] (Warner
Bros.)

VISIONQUEST
        A youth searches for adulthood.  Matthew Modine and Linda
Fiorentinno star.  [Might not be sf/fantasy, but the title sure
sounds like it. -reiher] (Warner Bros.)

[       The chances are good that a few of these films will never be
released, or perhaps even made.  The list the Times published last
year contained at least a dozen films which didn't come out.  Some
were delayed, and some cancelled.  The same might happen with a few
of these.  It's also my painful duty to point out the possibility
that "Santa Claus", from the Salskynd brothers who brought you
Supermans I-III, may be out by next Christmas.  They have an
unpleasant habit of following through on their threats, so we may
yet see Dudley Moore as one of Santa's elves. -reiher]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 00:50:58 EST
From: WASER@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: Future Movie Information

  Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a prequel to Raiders and
occurs (as far as I can remember from Worldcon) about 10 years
before.  It is for this reason, as well as several others, that
there is another (from all reports blonde, buxom, and beautiful)
"love" interest in the film instead of Karen Allen.  This reason
also explains why there are no other repeats (though who knows,
maybe we'll get to see Professor Ravenwood and his at-that-time
probably teen-age daughter).  While film clips were shown at
Worldcon, they ARE trying to be secretive (from the people who
brought you Blue Harvest) and I remember nothing outstanding or
interesting in them.
  Also, as far as I know, Dune is due out next December (i.e. I
believe the date given in the last digest is erroneous).  Film clips
of this were also shown at Worldcon but were, in contrast to
IJatToD's, very impressive despite the fact that they refused to
show the sandworms, the guild navigator, or the massive exodus scene
(which involved an incredible number of models).

                                                        -- Mark

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #9
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jan 84 1309-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 13 Jan 1984        Volume 9 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:
                 Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Borges &
                         MacAvoy (2 msgs) & Cats in SF,
                 Films - Star Wars,
                 Miscellaneous - W&W & The Speed of Light (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 8:19:17-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!dvamc!ccw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Asimov's Future History?

"The Robots of Dawn" seems to be a continuation of the tying
together that Asimov started in "Foundation's Edge".

                                        Chris Woodbury
                                        {duke,mcnc}!dvamc!ccw

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 84 19:36:25-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Asimov's Future History? - (nf)

You're not imagining things. Asimov has said (in his column in his
magazine) that in picking up his series he has consciously made them
grow towards a single future history.

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 20:11:47-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!bts @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Borges's Imaginary Beings & Wolfe's BotNS

The following is from Jorge Luis Borges's, "The Book of Imaginary
Beings". (Penguin Books, 1974) I recommend this book very highly--
*if* you can find it.  Anyway, with respect to Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF
THE NEW SUN, Borges has this to say:

                         BALDANDERS

     Baldanders (whose name we may translate as `Soon- another' or
`At-any-moment-something-else') was suggested to the master
shoemaker Hans Sachs (1494-1576) of Nuremburg by that passage in the
Odyssey in which Menelaus pursues the Egyptian god Proteus, who
changes himself into a lion, a serpent, a panther, a huge wild boar,
a tree, and flowing water.  Some ninety years after Sachs's death,
Baldanders makes a new appearance in the last book of the
picaresque-fantastic novel by Grimmelshausen, The Adventuresome
Simplicissimus (1669).  In the midst of a wood, the hero comes
upon a stone statue which seems to him an idol from some old
Germanic temple.  He touches it and the statue tells him he is
Baldanders and thereupon takes the forms of a man, of an oak tree,
of a sow, of a fat sausage, of a field of clover, of dung, of a
flower, of a blossoming branch, of a mulberry bush, of a silk
tapestry, of many other things and beings, and then, once more, of a
man.  He pretends to teach Simplicissimus the art "of conversing
with things which by their nature are dumb, such as chairs and
benches, pots and pans"; he also makes himself into a secretary and
writes these words from the Revelation of St. John: "I am the first
and the last", which are the key to the coded document in which he
leaves the hero his instructions.  Baldanders adds that his emblem
(like that of the Turk, and with more right to it than the Turk) is
the inconstant moon.

     Baldanders is a successive monster, a monster in time.
The title page of the first edition of Grimmelshausen's
novel takes up the joke.  It bears an engraving of a
creature having a satyr's head, a human torso, the unfolded
wings of a bird, and the tail of a fish, and which, with a
goat's leg and vulture's claws, tramples on a heap of masks
that stand for the succession of shapes he has taken.  In
his belt he carries a sword and in his hands an open book
showing pictures of a crown, a sailing boat, a goblet, a
tower, a child, a pair of dice, a fool's cap with bells, and
a piece of ordnance.

Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill
decvax!duke!unc!bts     (USENET)
bts.unc@CSnet-Relay (lesser NETworks)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 12:14:32 PST (Tue)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: R.A.MacAvoy, TWTBD & DAMIANO
Subject: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA's request for an expanded critique of

        Well.  Thank you for the corrections, I apologize for
screwing up both author's name and book title.  As for TWTBD's
flaws, which you feel are not there (you should get together with my
friend, eh?)  and I do, I would be glad to elaborate a bit.  Firstly
let me say that the characterization, as I've said before, is
excellent.  I had a good feel for most of the characters and wanted
to see more of them.  Complaints: the author did not check out most
of her use of computer jargon.  Some of it is just plain silly, some
wrong.  I felt the plot was a little weak and that more was hinted
at mysteriously than was ever delivered.  Sure, we were told all at
the end, but I didn't feel we got as much as we were promised.  Why
did Oolong leave the man (name forgotten, sorry) behind when he went
off to combat the "badies", with only an enigmatic justification?
Did he expect him to call the police?  I was also somewhat critical
of our dragon's mysterious abilities.  They were never well defined,
and the author managed to simply pull a few of them out of what
seemed to be "the hat" when she needed them, and ignore them at
times that I would expect them to be used.
        The premise was fine, the plot *could* have been fine, had
the author kept all the strings she started together, and kept the
pace and believability consistent.  I felt the book had a great deal
of unexplored potential.  I was dissapointed in the simplicity of
the resolutions and solutions.  Strengths of characters were
revealed inconsistently, almost as though she'd forgotten just what
their strengths were.  The ending was unsatisfying -- why hadn't she
died?  How did her captors fail to notice that she wasn't dead? Was
she resurrected?  It was loosely implied that she was in a deep
trance -- was that what saved her?  There were moments of brilliance
in the novel, just as there were in Damiano, moments of absolutely
delightful humor, but there were definitely (to me) flaws in both.
I think that the plot weaknesses are in both, though they differ
somewhat.  The author does improve somewhat in terms of consistency
in Damiano, but still leaves the reader a bit unfulfilled (I don't
care if it is the first in a trilogy) -- she hints at mysteries
(Rafael: "but he is the father--" Damiano: "--of lies, I know..."  I
half expected to find out that the Devil and God are one, hmm?).  As
I think about it more, while my impression of TWTBD is that it hangs
together better as a story, I find that Damiano leaves me a bit
fuller, that I am more pleased overall with the second book.
        I really do look forward to seeing more of her work -- IF
she improves.  I certainly hope she does.  It is my opinion that she
has a great deal of potential, and that her weaknesses are
overcomable.

        There, a somewhat more in-depth critique.

                sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 11 Jan 1984 10:23:31-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@Shasta
Subject: Macavoy, Gene Wolfe

(Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA) I liked Tea With the Black Dragon very
much, but I thought the writing was only mediocre (compensated for,
in my opinion, by the quality of the characters and concepts; plot
was also pretty vanilla).  All in all, a very satisfactory first
novel.

Now, Damiano may not have any flaws.  I can't think of any.  I find
this particularly pleasing because of the increase in writing skill
from first to second novel (of course, I don't know when either book
was actually WRITTEN, just when they were published).

(duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA) Actually, Castle of the Otter is a
book containing a collection of essays by Wolfe about the writing of
Book of the New Sun, and it's out now (it has been an SFBC
selection).  The title comes from an interesting sequence -- Locus
mistakenly reported that the last volume of Book of the New Sun
would be called Castle of the Otter (it's actually Citadel of the
Autarch -- I presume Locus got its information verbally in this
case).  Gene Wolfe liked the title, so he used it.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 21:52:59 EST
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Cats in SF



There is a short story called "Fuzzy" by Theodore Sturgeon that has
a cat in it.  It is collected in E PLURIBUS UNICORN.

ds

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 1984 at 1251-EST
From: jim at TYCHO  (James B. Houser)
Subject: ROTJ Opinion

Hi
        I recently saw ROTJ again.  While I think the movie is, in
general, OK there are a couple of things that kept it from being as
good as the first two.

        1.  Many of the "creatures" were not very believable.  Its
not that they were any more weird than, say, the ones in the SW-ANH
bar scene.  They just struck me as looking like "Toys R Us" rejects.
I'm mainly referring to Jabba's retinue but this comment also applies
to some of the rebel forces.  Does anyone know what the story is
here?  Did they change creature makers or what.  I saw first movie
at Worldcon and the contrast is quite noticeable.

        2.  It was really too cute.  I have nothing against upbeat
movies but this was a bit too much.  Even our hero Han Solo turned
into "Mr. Goody Two Shoes".  The Ewoks absolutely oozed cuteness.
Whatever, I think that ROTJ would have been more enjoyable if it had
been somewhat less syrupy.

        3.  In some spots the movie became fairly slow paced.  I
think it would benefit greatly by having about 10 minutes carefully
edited out.  The Tatooine and Endor scenes in particular could be
tightened up.  Its painful to lose frames from ROTJ but I really
think it would help.

        So that's my opinion for whatever its worth.

                                Jim Houser

------------------------------

Date: 10-Jan-84 18:12:16-EST
From: barry@BNL

To those who have been getting the w&w installments by ftp:

There has been a hiatus in availability while I found a host to
store them on where there wouldn't be uncomfortable repercussions.
I think I've finally found one.

The latest installment is #14.  If you haven't seen that, please
send me mail (barry@bnl) telling me the last installment you HAVE
seen.  I'll try to make the intervening ones available.

Thank you for your patience,

Barry Gold

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 15:56:44-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of light

1: Even more to the point with the radiation question -- There
   should be no difference in radiation in comparison with 300 years
   *ago*, 3000 years *ago*, etc.  The fact that we are still here
   tends to strongly support the view that we will still be here
   tomorrow.  (A related question was recently discussed on net.math
   concerning the success of the MAD doctrine: the implication was
   that since we have survived 38 years of mutual possesion of
   nuclear devices, the odds are no greater than 1/38 that we will
   not survive next year, all things being equal.)

2: The time compression due to gravitation effects can be
   determined using general relativity; however the effects are
   negligible for most reasonable problems.  One thing which is not
   as negligible, however, is orbital precession due to (a) the
   presence of mass, and (b) the rotation of said mass.  In fact, it
   was due to an *anomoly* in the calculated precession of Mercury's
   orbit that general relativity was developed.  It now appears that
   this anomolous precession can be explained by a better model of
   the structure of the sun, leaving very serious questions about
   general relativity.  BUT -- special relativiy is still on
   extremely firm theoretical ground, and in the question of which
   is `more accurate', I suspect that sr will come out ahead.
   (alas).

3: If you want to be picky, every single science fiction book which
   uses time-warps, hyperdrive, et nauseam is related to this
   discussion.  I may be a personality defect to some individuals on
   the net, but I can not seriously consider any book/story/idea
   which is not at the least possible in my eyes.  As a result, I
   *loath* lord of the rings, etc.

   Some science fiction storys/books/... which would be affected by
   this physics phenomenum are:

   *The Forever War* by J. Haldeman -- uses black holes for
                                       transportation, time
                                       compression

   *The McAndrew Chronicles* by ?  -- deals heavily with special
                                      and general relativity, ECD
                                      and QED.

   The Known Space series by Larry Niven -- The most visible example
                                       is the calculation (in gr)
                                       that Shaffer's ship will
                                       leave the black hole with a
                                       sizable spin in *Neutron
                                       Star*.

   If it is insisted that this discussion refer to science fiction
   stories, the McAndrew Chronicles alone contain enough material to
   make this net look like net.physics for a few months (:-}).


Bruce Giles
UUCP:           decvax!ucf-cs!giles
cs-net:         giles@ucf
ARPA:           giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay
Snail:          University of Central Florida
                Dept of Math, POB 26000
                Orlando Fl 32816

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 19:44:24-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!riber @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light - (nf)

        can you link this subject to science fiction or are you
   lost.  please use the correct notes group for this discussion.

riber

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #10
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jan 84 2253-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 14 Jan 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:
              Books - Clarke & Herbert & Stableford &
                      Cats in SF (3 msgs) & Women in SF (2 msgs),
              Films - Philadelphia Experiment & Great Movies &
                      Star Wars (2 msgs),
              Television - What Ever Happened to V?,
              Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units & 
                      The Density of a Vacuum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 11 Jan 1984 20:15:49-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun (Roger H. Goun)
From: <decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@Shasta>
Subject: Query on THE SENTINEL

One of the current Featured Selections of the Science Fiction Book
Club is THE SENTINEL, by Arthur C. Clarke.  It is billed as "a
brilliant new collection of Clarke's highest caliber short fiction."

The prospect of a new Clarke volume would normally make me drool,
but in this case I smell decomposition in Scandinavia.  First of
all, there is no price listed for a publisher's edition.  Even more
to the point, I think I've read almost all these stories before.

Is THE SENTINEL just a republication of lots of Clarke's stuff that
I've seen collected elsewhere?  The stories include the title piece,
"The Sentinel," on which 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY was based; "Breaking
Strain," about two men in a ship with only enough oxygen for one;
"Refugee," concerning a British prince who wants to go into space;
and "Guardian Angel," described as "the seed for the novel
CHILDHOOD'S END," and the only one I don't clearly remember in a
Clarke short story I've read already.

Is there anything NEW in THE SENTINEL?  Is it worth shelling out
$3.98 for?

                                        -- Roger Goun

UUCP:   {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun
ARPA:   decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@SU-Shasta
USPS:   Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13
        77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749
Tel:    (617) 568-6311

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 16:13:09-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Frank Herbert Help Request

I bought Herbert's The Jesus Incident to take on a vacation for
beach reading.  I "cracked" it a couple days early and it never made
it to the airport.  Then I got "Destination: Void," which sets up
the conscious Ship and some of the characters for TJI.  What I want
to know:
*Are there other books of his in between these two?  Seems there
could be any number of "replays" of humanity before TJI.
*Any books \after/ TJI, which ends open-endedly ("Surprise me, holy
void!")
*Do any of his other novels deal with similar topics (artificial
consciousness, God, etc.?)
*Since I liked these, should I like "Dune" and its sequels?

mike k

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 84 19:36:38-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf)

        I'm interested primarily in novels, particularly (though not
        exclusively) those which are built around some established
        "other" world or universe a la Niven's Known Space.
----------
Brian Stableford has written a couple of novel series, in which the
characters remain constant and references to internal history
continue through the series.  I liked them.

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece

------------------------------

Date: 12 January 1984 14:51 cst
From: Cargo.PD at HI-MULTICS
Subject: Cat science fiction story

There was a short story titled "Aesculapius Has Paws" which appeared
in one of the early Clarion collections. Output of one of the
Clarion writers' workshops. The story concerns a cat-like alien who
used its psychic abilities to aid a mentally distraught woman who
lived on a houseboat (much like the ones in Seattle where some of
the workshops were held).

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jan 1984 13:13:47-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!able!duggan@Shasta
Subject: MORE CATS IN SF

        An addition to the list of Cats in SF:

        "DOOR INTO SUMMER" -- One of Rob't Heinlein's middle books,
about a man who sleeps his way into the 21st century (twice) and his
constant sidekick, Pete the cat. ("Pete and I had a very good
relationship. He was in charge of eating and sleeping, and I was in
charge of all else -- including the weather. For a while we lived in
a house in Connecticut. In the winter Pete would go from door to
window, looking out all of them, until hydraulic pressure forced him
out. ... He was always looking for the door into summer.")

------------------------------

From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Date: 13 Jan 84 8:02:58 EST
Subject: Space Cat

The author of Space Cat and its sequels was an ex-Welshman named
Ruthven (rhymes with "striven") Todd.  I read them all fifty times
when I was seven, and was shocked to find the same copies in the
library when I went back at 23.  Read 'em again, too.  They still
had their humor and magic, which I couldn't truthfully say for the
Matthew Looney and Georgie the Ghost books and other relics of my
first reading years which I have found in grubby used bookstores in
recent years.  The Yrgombumia (or something close to that) ranks
right up there with the Puppeteers as one of my favorite aliens.

--Jeff Duntemann

duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 21:51:31 EST
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Women in SF Stories

You probably have this on your list but I haven't seen anyone
mention it yet.  TITAN, WIZARD, (and soon DEMON) all have a female
in the title role.  (That's not including TITAN herself.)

ds

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 1984 1302-EST
From: Rita M. Tillson <RTILLSON at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Matriarchies

One of the finest books I have read involving a matriarchy is
actually about the decline and fall of a matriarchy - THE MISTS OF
AVALON by Marion Zimmer Bradley.  It is Arthurian legend, told
completely from the viewpoint of the female characters, Vivianne,
Morgaine, Morgause, and Gwenefheur.  Its focus is on the conflict
between the ancient Druidic society, a matriarchy, and the
patriarchal Christian society.  It is a "must read" for anyone
interested in matriarchy, Arthurian legend, or Marion Zimmer
Bradley.

In my opinion, this is Bradley's best work to date.  It is a
well-researched work; the Druidic ritual is very close to actual
Wiccan ritual, although MZB freely admits to some modification of
the Wiccan versions.  It is a very long book (about 800 pages, if my
memory serves me correctly), and very complex.  The interpersonal
relationships that develop as the years (and pages) pass are
superbly detailed.  The characters are real and believable, and the
plot is well developed.  The book is not without flaws.  The
wonderful character development is occasionally at the expense of
action and pace, and the concluding chapter should have been left
out entirely.  I found that these were flaws I easily overlooked.
The prose often approached poetry, and the three page introductory
chapter by Morgaine was almost worth the price of the hardcover
edition by itself.  THE MISTS OF AVALON is an innovative and
imaginative approach to a legend whose retellings often seem like
last night's leftovers - stale and tiresome.  I recommend it highly.

There is a short story with a matriarchal theme that I enjoyed very
much.  Unfortunately, I read it years ago and cannot remember the
title.  I believe it was by Johanna Russ, and was included in the
DANGEROUS VISIONS series.  It is about a group of colonists whose
male population has been wiped out by a sex-linked disease.  The
remaining colonists succeed in cloning new offspring.  Having only X
chromosomes to clone from, they have only female children.  The
story takes place several generations later, when the colonists are
"rescued" by a group of male explorers.  Does anyone remember the
title of this story?

/phae

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jan 1984 14:52-PST
Subject: philadelphia experiment
Reply-to: kevinw at SU-DSN
From: kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim

it was a book published ~5 years ago as i recall.  not TOO bad,
but...
  -- Kevin
     kevinw@su-dsn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 84 20:34:48 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Great Movies

Great...Dark Star and Attack of the Killer Tomatoes are two of my
favorite comedies of any type.  If you want to add another
intentional SF comedy, how about "AIRPLANE 2" (pretty bad).

Add to your list of bad movies "The Cars That Ate People"

Then there's always the classic "Duck Rogers in the Twenty Third and
a Half Century."  Not to be missed.

"I just hate being disintegrated" said the martian as he remerged
from the re-integrater.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 84 11:16 PST
From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Question: Powers of Lite Sabres

"But did Anakin/Darth actually want Obi-Wan to give Luke his (old?)
flashlight? . . . Did Obi-Wan screw up *again*?  These and other
questions....  -- Allan Pratt"

It is my theory that Obi-Wan and Anakin had long ago developed a
long term plan to destroy the Emperor.  This plan involved Anakin
voluntarily going over to the dark side of the force to become the
Emperor's right hand man in hopes that a generation later young
Skywalker would come to the rescue of his father and destroy the Big
E.  This might explain why Obi-Wan let himself be destroyed by
Darth, since Anakin gave his life to the cause Obi-Wan gave his.
Toward the end of RotJ, while Darth and Luke were engaged in sabre
to sabre combat, Darth says, "Obi-Wan has taught you well."  We all
assume he was talking to Luke, but he could have been talking to
himself as he stuggled within, trying to grasp hold of his original
commitment.  After all, Obi-Wan didn't teach Luke, Yoda did.  Will
we ever find out the rest of the story?  Possibly not, but its still
fun to theorize just to keep the Star Wars magic alive.

Toby

p.s.  the biggest money maker of 83 was, of course, Return of the
Jedi with $260 million.  the next biggest was Flash Dance with $85
million.  quite a staggering difference.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 12 Jan 84 21:36:29-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Star Wars

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STAR WARS Revisited^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jawa baby-talk?  Well, as a linguist I couldn't help having certain
elements in the alien languages jump out at me.  One was the mis-
(or extremely loose) translation given for Greedo's.  The word
"Jabba", an obvious foreign lexical item in his speech where it
occurred once, appeared \twice/ in the subtitles.  It was the only
analysable element.  I fared better with Jawaese, however, in being
able to recognize a whole sentence, "Ut-dee-dee!", a 2nd person
imperative with semantic component of movement.  Roughly, "Get
moving!" It can be heard 3 times, usually addresses to R2, as in the
scene at the Lars moisture farm when the droids are told to get out
of the hold of the Sandcrawler.

But...  Good grief!  Even a year ago I could still have told Jeff
Bowles where the English writing was, without a moment's hesitation.
(On the tractor beam mechanism Obi-Wan turned off?)  But, as of May
25th, 1983, \I/ got so badly turned off that I'm even giving up the
D.VADER personal license plates I've had since '78!  (Am
contemplating getting SF-LOVR for '85 when NASFiC is here, to
celebrate meeting people who have contributed so much pleasure via
my VDT.  Y'all come!)

------------------------------

Date: 13-Jan-84 01:10 PST
From: testing  <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2>
Subject: Query:  Status of "V"?

Anyone know whatever happened to the NBC plans to air the 4 two-hour
sequels to "V"?  Thanks, --BI<<

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 January 1984, 15:50-PST
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: A universal system of units

There have been some messages lately about the possibility for
non-arbitrary units of measure.  For time and distance this is a
hard problem, but I was suprised when some one mentioned that you
have the same difficulty with angle measures.  (This came up during
discussion of parsecs -> seconds of arc -> degrees -> radians ->
...)  Well 360 is a pretty random number, but the idea of "a number
a little bigger than 6 and a quarter" is ridiculous!  The obvious
value is 1, the name of this unit is "revolutions", one degree =
1/360 of a revolution.  That unit is both completely non-arbitrary
(no funny constants) and universal (makes sense no matter how many
fingers (or whatever) you have).  This approach is very useful in
computational geometry, and is used by several computer graphics /
computer geometry systems (including my favorite: ASAS).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Jan 84 10:22:39 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #4

The density of the vacuum increases close to the sun?

How can the the absence of anything become more dense?

-Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #11
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 84 0120-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 15 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:
                       Art - Fantasy Artwork,
                       Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Dickson & Heinlein,
                       Films - Iceman & Favorite Movies & Upcoming Films,
                       Television - Dr. Who,
                       Miscellaneous - The Speed of Light & Parsecs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 9:55:05-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!cae780!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fantasy Artwork

At baycon I picked up two pieces of art from fairly well known
artists (at least to those at the con). Ken Macklin is well known
for his humourous characters (especially trolls) and I am looking
forward to adding to my collection of him soon (he lives in the
Santa Rosa area, I believe). I also picked up a repro of a Ray
McGinnis oil of a White pegasus and a black dragon fighting in front
of a very evil looking castle. He is from the Burlingame area, and I
believe he was showing a centaur piece at Baycon. I have addresses
for both if people want to contact them. They both do commission
work and have some reproductions available for some of their work.

-- Diogenes looked in and laughed--

>From the dungeons of the warlock       Chuqui the Plaid
Note the new address:                   {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui

~And as I lived my role I swore I'd sell my soul for one love
 who would stand by me and give me back the gift of laughter~
                - Winslow Leech

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 8:52:33-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Request for book review

Has anyone read "The Crucible of Time" by John Brunner?  It is one
of the latest selections by the SF Book Club and sounds interesting,
but $6.89 is more than I want to pay for a pig-in-a-poke (I'm
cheap). Thanks in advance for any info or reviews. Mail direct to me
or post to the net as you think appropriate.

                           Tom Butler
                           ..!ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb
                           (312) 979-7999

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 10:17:47-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!drutx!druxt!mcq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Request for book review

I'd like the information also, and I would like to expand the
request a little bit.

Brunner is a writer who has put out some work I love and some I
hate.  His ecological/future shock books such as "Shockwave Rider",
"The Sheep Look Up", and "Stand on Zanzibar" were excellent from my
point of view.  "Players at the Game of People" and "The Dramaturges
of Yan" I disliked.

I would like to see some reviews of Brunner in total, not just of
"Crucible of Time".  I hope the original author doesn't mind me
horning in on the request.

                        Bob McQueer
                        ihnp4!druxt!mcq

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 6:26:02-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!hogpd!kenchan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Query on Dickson's Childe Cycle

Does anyone know the status of Gordon R. Dickson's Childe Cycle?

Ken Chan
AT&T-IS

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 1:05:12-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: another book - exploring the idea of - (nf)

[** Warning: **spoiler** on second page **]

The all-time best trickiest punchiest time-travel paradox
meet-yourself tale has to be Robert Heinlein's "All You Zombies..."
(which I think is one of the stories tucked away in the back of the
short novel "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag").

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

[*************spoiler*********************]

Actually, I started to give the whole thing away at first, when I
wrote:

        The all-time best trickiest punchiest time-travel paradox
        meet-yourself screw-yourself sex-change tale...

Now that I've blown it, I might as well give you the last line in
the story:

[**** next line is a REAL spoiler ***]

        "I know where I come from, but what about all you zombies..."

(arrgggh!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Jan 84 12:24:12 PST
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: ICEMAN (cometh...)  SEMI-SPOILER

I saw a test showing of ICEMAN some months ago.  At that time I sent
in a short review, but it apparently got lost in the change of
moderators.

I wasn't too impressed with the movie and neither was the rest of
the studio audience (as they say).  An artic research group finds an
outcropping of very old ice and a frozen caveman inside.  They cut
him out and return him to the research base, where they thaw him and
(surprise!) return him to life.  [The psuedo-scientific explanation:
he was quick-frozen by a natural disaster and didn't suffer cell
rupture because he was soaked in DMSO.  I have no idea how plausible
an idea this is.]

Timothy Hutton plays an anthropologist (who is for some reason
stationed in the artic, studying Eskimos).  The female lead (I
forget her name) is a biologist.  We also have the nasty station
director, who is most interested in discovering the secret of the
successful quick-freeze for the profit of the oil company who
sponsors the station.  The film then goes on into the usual morass
of conflicts-of-interest between the various parties.

The most interesting facet of the movie for me was the caveman's
culture as pieced together by Hutton.  His methods of research
seemed a little hokey, but that is acceptable.  The caveman
naturally thinks that he is in some kind of supernatural setting,
which leads to various complications.

Hutton ends the movie by making the ``right'' choice: ie., he lets
his humanistic elements overcome his scientific elements regarding
the fate of the caveman (intentionally vague, so as not to spoil the
film).

A $1.50 film, I'd say.  I'd certainly never want to see it again.

                                        == Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 7:34:36-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF movies

If we're throwing about favorite (as opposed to "best", a tag I find
hard to use as it's all so subjective anyway) SF movies, let me
throw in a few of mine, with notes...

"The Andromeda Strain"
A nice, tense little movie, one I try to catch often (and it usually
pops up on Saturday afternoon/evening movies a lot).  It's more
intellectual than visceral, so it's a nice change of pace.

"The Day the Earth Stood Still"
I like it because after all these years, it *still* stands up to
most of the SF movies made recently.  Believable and enjoyable.

"Forbidden Planet"
Yes, yes, I know, it's *everyone's* classic.  I just think it's the
best representative of that era of SF film, certainly the most fun
(especially if you watch for Anne in the buff [yes, I know it's a
skin suit...]).

"The Other Side of the Sun"
I don't know *why* I like this one, I just do.  I haven't seen it
that much, but it's a nice piece of work.  I like the (albeit
somewhat hokey) premise, and the model work ain't bad, either.

"2001"
It's big, it's visual, it's mysterious -- 'nuff said.

That's enough for now.  Keep those choices comin' in, folks!

BKCobb
AT&T BELL LABS
Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihuxs!okie

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 6:48:39-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!root @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: sf & fantasy films for the forthcoming year

    A few comments about Peter Reiher's forthcoming-movie list:

    I've been looking forward to Hugh Hudson's GREYSTOKE, too.
Unfortunately, advance previews that were done this past fall (the
film was originally intended for a Christmas release) indicated that
the film was a bomb, and Warner Bros.  pulled it from its intended
release schedule to try and fix it up.

    I disagree with your comment about Jeannot (SUPERGIRL) Szwarc
being a "hack", just because he directed JAWS II, which is certainly
not nearly as good as its predecessor, but in my opinion doesn't
deserve the denigration it receives.  Szwarc directed a number of
the better NIGHT GALLERY episodes (and a few TWILIGHT ZONES as well,
though I'm not positive of this), and at least *I* liked SOMEWHERE
IN TIME --- as did author Richard Matheson --- even moreso than the
novel it was based on.
    Speaking of SUPERGIRL, it's been a year since Helen Slater was
announced for the title role, and I have yet to see a photograph of
her. I'm curious to know what she looks like.

    I saw a presentation of DUNE at the World Fantasy Convention
this past Halloween. Lynch is a brilliant filmmaker, which bodes
well for the film, but judging from what I saw, I'm still not
*totally* convinced. The set designs were magnificent (no special
effects were completed at that time, though), and so the film looks
like it will look nice, but part of my problem was that almost none
of the actors, in my opinion, looked like the characters. Von Sydow
does indeed play Liet-Kynes and Sting plays Feyd Rautha Harkonnen.
The only other cast member that I can recall offhand is Jurgen
Prochnow (DAS BOOT; THE KEEP) as Duke Leto.

    At least a couple of sources indicated that the character of
Rene Belloc will be appearing in INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF
DOOM. The setting of the film is, I believe, Malaysia.

                        ---jayembee
                           Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard
                           decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 12:43:12-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mh3bs!mhtsa!exodus!gamma!ulysses!princeton!eosp1!wha
From: rton@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dr. Who song and Scarf

There has existed for at least two years a "filksong" (fan written
and performed) featuring Doctor Who and using the tune of "My
Favorite Things" from "The Sound of Music".  The only line that I
remember goes as follows:

        "grubby white bag full of bright colored candy".

Does anyone out there have a complete version that they could post?
I think the readers of this newsgroup would enjoy it.


                                        Francis J. Wharton
                                        Exxon Office Systems
                                        Princeton, N.J. 08540

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 84 20:30:38-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!tektronix!reed!cdi!sequent!richard @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

Uh...sorry. Vacuums are harder farther away from the sun.  The best
place to go for absolutely NO pollution would be outside of the
galaxy - preferably outside of our universe.

The sun is spewing out material constantly - in general, vacuums are
worse close to gravitational bodies.  See net.astro or .physics for
details.

A decent book that incorporated this fact is *TAU ZERO* by (i think)
Poul Anderson.  His science in this one is pretty hard, although the
ending is a little far-fetched.

                        ...!sequent!richard
                                the rider in black

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 19:17:51-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-dbs!julian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

A parsec is defined in terms of an AU, so it's about as nonabsolute
as an AU is.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #12
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 84 0213-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:
               Books - Clarke & Laumer & Sheffield &
                       Cordwainer Smith (2 msgs) & Tolkein & 
                       Recommendations on SF Authors (2 msgs),
               Films - Star Wars (2 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Speed of Light (2 msgs) & Vacuums

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Jan 84 00:29:02 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice>
Subject: Re: Query on THE SENTINEL

"Breaking Strain" is in EXPEDITION TO EARTH, "Refugee" is in THE
OTHER SIDE OF THE SKY, and "The Sentinel" is in many places, such as
THE LOST WORLDS OF 2001.  I've read "Guardian Angel" in some
anthology of works by various authors on which novels were based,
and also an early Clarke anthology published in England.

So far as I could tell by surreptitious bookstore browsing, the only
thing new in the book is a two-or-three page movie outline for a
movie based on "Songs of Distant Earth", with an appalling mishmash
sprinkling of a lot of other Clarke short-story and novella work
("The Shining Ones", "A Meeting with Medusa").  If there's anything
else in THE SENTINEL, I'd like to hear about it.  Bad show, Arthur!

                        - Mike Caplinger
                          mike@rice

ps.  Of course, the movie COULD be better than nearly every other SF
work to date, which almost guarantees it will never be made...
relativistic spaceships and all!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 84 8:27:54-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!dciem!psddevl!milan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: another book - exploring the idea of time

Keith Laumer wrote Dinosaur Beach a long time ago.  It looks at the
aspect of time travel in a slightly different way. As in Asimov's
"The End of Eternity", the protagonist actually sees himself in a
battle where he could (theoretically) fight against himself.  Neat.
Have a look at it.

milan (...!utzoo!psddevl!milan)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 84 9:48:44-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of light

   The McAndrew Chronicles is a collection of stories by Charles
Sheffield (three cheers!), which have appeared in various SF
magazines over the last few years.  A personal note: there are
several scientists presently practicing science-fiction writing.
Charles Sheffield has mastered it; he need not practice any more
(although I sure hope that he does!).

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 11:23:50-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf)

I've got to second the recommendation for Cordwainer Smith.

I'll even vote for his short stories.

While the premise of ""Scanners Live in Vain" was a bit stretched,
the story was fantastic!

Cranched Indeed!

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 9:31:50-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf)

A resounding YES on Cordwainer Smith.  Other great stories by him
include THE BALLAD OF LOST C'MELL; THE LADY WHO SAILED THE SOUL; THE
CRIME AND GLORY OF COMMANDER SUZDAL; GOLDEN THE SHIP WAS, OH, OH, OH
(actually, not such a great story, but a marvelous title);
ALPHA-RALPHA BOULEVARD; MOTHER HITTON'S LITTUL KITTONS; THE MAN WHO
CAME BACK FROM NOTHING AT ALL; and my personal favorite of his, THE
DEAD LADY OF CLOWN TOWN, a retelling of the Joan of Arc story, with
two themes: the power of love and what is a person.  I particularly
like his use of language and his use of Chinese poetic forms as
structures for his stories.

A few of his stories, such as NO, NO, NOT ROGOV; THE BURNING OF THE
BRAIN; AND SCANNERS LIVE IN VAIN I don't really care for, but they
are still better than many stories of other authors.

NORSTRILIA is a very good novel, but it is an abridgement of THE BOY
WHO BOUGHT OLD EARTH (sometimes called THE PLANET BUYER) and THE
UNDERPEOPLE.  If you can get the original two volumes (alas, out of
print for many years), you may prefer them--I know I do.

BTW, many of these stories have to do with cats.

                                John Hobson
                                AT&T Bell Labs
                                Naperville, IL
                                (312) 979-7293
                                ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 23:44:00-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: source of quotation

The exact quote goes:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and
quick to anger."  It occurs at Gildor's conversation with Frodo in
Woodhall.  The quote is echoed by Merry, when Pippin was pondering
the palantir.

A elbereth gilthionel, folks!
--
--greg
...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds (uucp)
Gds@XX (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 84 14:34:16-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2b!sims @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Recommendations on SF Authors - Results

About 2 weeks ago I posted a request for recommendations for SF
authors, especially those whose writings are based around some
"other" world/universe.  Well, friends and neighbors, the results
are in.  I'd like to thank the hundreds of netters (well, at least
16) who took the time to send responses - the suggestions are much
appreciated!!  Since there was some interest voiced in the
responses, I have summarized the recommendations below.
Unfortunately, a local disk became seriously ill last week, and I
lost a few authors in the crash - my apologies to the respondents
whose ideas are not included.

The listing below is alphabetical, with any name of a series and/or
any recommended titles following.  By the way, I'm taking all
names/titles directly from my mail, so kindly refrain from searing
my CRT with complaints of spelling, etc.

**********COMPILATION OF SFNET AUTHOR RECOMMENDATIONS**********

Poul Anderson - Set of books about the 'Polysotechnic (sp?) (or
        Technic) League'; also "Operation Chaos"

David Brin - "Sundiver" and "Star Tide Rising"

C. J. Cherryh - Faded Sun trilogy ("Kutath," "Shon'Jir," and
        "Kesrith") also "Pride of Chanur"

Jack Chalker - 'Well World' series, especially the first book,
        "Midnight at the Well of Souls"

Gordon R. Dickson - Dorsai series (actually part of Childe Cycle
        series, I believe)

Robert (?) Forward - "Dragon's Egg"

Joe Haldeman - "Mindbridge" and "The Forever War"

Zenna Henderson - Series about 'The People', starting with "No
         Different Flesh" or "The Anything Box"

James Hogan - numerous works, highly recommended

Annes McCaffrey - "Dragonflight," "Dragonquest," and other books
         about the Dragonriders of Pern (I've just finished
         "Dragonflight" - enjoyed it much)

Alexei Panshin - "Star Well"/"The Thurb Revolution"/"Masque World"
        (series) and "Rite of Passage"

H. Beam Piper - mixed reviews (one good, one fair)

Spider Robinson - "Stardance," "Telempath," and "Mind Killer"

Clifford Simak

E. E. 'Doc' Smith - Lensman series - old-fashioned, but good

A. E. Van Vogt - "The Weapon Shops of Isher"/"The Weapon Makers" and
        "The World of Null-A"/"The Pawns (Players) of Null-A", plus
        others - "Mission to the Stars" specifically NOT recommended

John Varley - especially "Titan," "Wizard," and "The Ophiuchi
        Hotline"

Roger Zelazny - "Lord of Light" and others


Closing note: if anyone out there has any further recommendations,
I'd love to hear 'em.  And if one of the above is on your ten most
hated list, remember - I'm not recommending them from experience,
'cause for the most part I haven't read them yet!!

                        HAPPY READING TO ALL!!!!

                                    Jim
                            ..!houxm!hou2b!sims

------------------------------

Date: 15 January 1984 02:04 EST
From: Don M. Matheson <DMM @ MIT-ML>
Subject: Request for SF recommendations

        Who would you folks recommend to someone who's read all the
books by Niven, Hogan, Brin, Forward and Sheffield (among many
others), and is dying for any one of them to write something new?  I
guess these tend more toward "Hard-Science" (particularly Forward &
Sheffield), but whatever category they fit in, I would like to get
some suggestions for other writers of this general flavor...
        Also, has anyone heard anything about the Berserker-Times-
Seven collaboration that was excerpted in OMNI over 6 months ago?  I
don't know what author to ask for, since it is apparently by Niven,
Saberhagen, and five others.
        Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
                                        Cheers,
                                                DMM@MIT-ML

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Jan 84 02:12:48-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: SW apostasy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From a STAR WARS Defector ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

W-h-y was such a SW devotee (who stopped counting after seeing "A
New Hope" 41 times, and who laboriously transcribed illicit
recordings of the sound tracks of ANH and TESB so as not to have to
wait for publication of the scripts) so utterly turned off by JEDI?

Because it was so much just a re-hash of stuff out of the first two
that I've \still/ not been able to stomach seeing it again in order
to add --ad nauseum-- to the following message to SF-LOVERS which
the computer record says I started on May 28th.

                     Isn't This Where We Came In?
                                  or
                        When Does VI = IV + V?

The reprise-with-a-twist of "I love you" "I know" I could take, but
not the constant deja-vu of--

    Rebel fighters attacking Death Star II, including
        Recycled dialog
        Fighter ships' intricate manuevering down narrow passage
        Explosion of Death Star
    Secret tech. info on Death Star gained at cost of spies' lives
    Imperial Walker downed by roping legs
    Infiltration of enemy area thru using Chewie as "prisoner"
    Luke and Vader's dueling with circular window in background and
                stairway at the fore
    R2-D2 getting blitzed while using manipulator on door
    Alien uglies' R&R
    Princess Leia, perpetual prisoner/victim
    R2-D2 getting zapped, crying "Maaamaaa", and tumbling over
    A fall down a vast mechanical circular cavern
    Luke & Leia rope-swinging escape

It was as if Lucas had died right after TESB, without leaving usable
material for the concluding episode, which was then put together by
a committee, drawing on ANYthing they could from the first two!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 21:47:28-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!nsc!chongo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Next SW movie?

i know that Lucas wanted about 3 years off, but is there a definite
date which the next film will be started, finished, if at all?  what
about the title and subject matter?  will the first 3 lead into the
beginning of Star Wars directly, or will they form a complete set?

chongo <alreadying waiting in line!> /\**/\

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 84 5:15:15-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Speed of Light-Relativistic Querry

  With all this discussion about the speed of light, I would like to
throw in my own question:

Does time slow down as you approach the speed of light, and go
backwards if you should invent an FTL drive and go for a quick trip
to Proxima Centauri?

  I would appreciate an answer to this.

Ken Varnum (...!decvax!dartvax!kenv)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 84 8:23:38-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Speed of Light

        I would think so.  The sun heats up what particles there are
        so they are moving faster, and are farther apart.  Therefore
        there is 'more of a vacuum'.

        --dartvax!johnc

Sorry, but incorrect for a number of reasons:

        1. The sun emits particles; assuming that this emission is
roughly isotropic means that the density of emitted particles is
roughly inversely proportional to radial distance from the sun to at
least the second power.

        2. Directly addressing your point -- the "harder vacuum" is
one with fewer particles per volume; not one with "faster particles
per volume" or "farther apart particles per volume".  I.e. the
particle density will stay constant for any macroscopic volume since
any {quickly} exiting particle will probably be replaced by a
{quickly} entering particle.

"Go ahead...make my day."
Darth Wombat
{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,harpo,seismo,teklabs,ucbvax}!pur-ee!rsk

------------------------------

Date: 14 January 1984  23:22-PST (Saturday)
Subject: Vacuum
From: Tony Li <Tli @ Usc-Eclb>

Hi,

Vacuum is measured in torr.  1 torr = 1.316E-3 atmospheres.  Density
is always in units of mass/volume.  Vacuum does not have mass, and
hence, cannot have a density.

Further, the sun radiates a solar 'wind' which is composed of large
numbers of particles.  A moments thought will indicate the gradient
established by the density of these particles as they are ejected.

Hence, not only was the earlier statement poorly worded, but it was
also blatantly incorrect.

Cheers,
Tony ;-)

p.s. Nuf said.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Jan 84 03:51-EST
From: Joseph D. Turner <RG.CUTTER%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Density of a vacuum

Of course it would increase -- you're getting closer to a big source
of tons of little particles (That isn't what I really mean, I just
can't find the right words at the moment). In any event, space isn't
"the absence of anything" -- there are zillions of particles out
there...  they're just very, very, v e r y, *v e r y* far apart...
                                            Joe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #13
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 84 1335-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:
               Books - Anderson & Brooks & Herbert &
                       Cats in SF & Women in SF & 
                       SF Recommendations & Wombats in SF,
               Films - Forry Ackerman in THRILLER & 
                       Favorite SF Movies (3 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Vacuums (2 msgs) & Parsecs &
                       Time Dilation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 20:00:18-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf)

One of the universes I particularly like wandering around in is
Anderson's.  In it we see a young, expanding, government run Terran
society (The Ythri (sp?)), changing to an older, more established
(but STILL expanding) Terran empire run by large corporations (The
Nicki Van Rijn stories), and then into an old, rotting empire
(Flandry).

There are other stories in each era, and a little filler. All good
stuff, some of it even excellent.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 84 20:00:02-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Elfstones - (nf)

The Sword of Shannara was obviously a narrative put to a D&D
adventure.

Is the sequel the same sort of thing?

--Dick Wexelblat

------------------------------

Date: Mon 16 Jan 84 09:21:23-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Frank herbert Books

Those who liked Destination: Void might try The Dosadi Experiment.
It is not in any "sequence" with the other books, but addresses
several of the same themes.

------------------------------

Date: 16 January 1984 10:30 cst
From: Cargo.PD at HI-MULTICS
Subject: Cats in Science Fiction

Upon further thought, I have recalled at least the titles for a few
more books with cat-like aliens in them: Decision at Doona (by
MacCaffrey maybe), and Masters of Everon, by Gordon R. Dickson.
There are also some more Andre Norton books with cats in them: Beast
Master, and Lord of Thunder. There is also one of the Witch World
books which has a *big* cat on the cover, and I don't remember which
one it was.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 84 23:15:10 PST
From: Willard Korfhage <korfhage@UCLA-ATS>
Subject: Re : Women in SF

The Russ story about a colony where all the males died is "When It
Changed" in "Again, Dangerous Visions."

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 84 09:00:24 PST (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author

        I'm interested primarily in novels, particularly (though not
        exclusively) those which are built around some established
        "other" world or universe a la Niven's Known Space.
----------

/* I didn't see the original message, so if I include any
redundancies, my apologies */

Try H. Beam Piper's Federation/Empire series.  This series is a set
of short stories and novels all in the same universe (which includes
the Fuzzy novels).  The short stories were recently re-released (by
Ace I think) under two anthologies not surprisingly called
"Federation" and "Empire".  "Uller Uprising" and "Space Vikings"
also belong in this universe.

There is also, of course, Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League
stories, starting with "Trouble Twisters".

Oh, and I think Piers Anthony had a series of sf novels, "Cluster" I
think it was called.  I'm not too sure about this one, since I've
only read one trilogy out of that series (the Tarot trilogy).

And you have probably already heard of Heinlein's seminal Future
History

... it goes on and on ...

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 84 14:35:21-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!bts @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Wombats in SF

Does anyone know any SF stories with wombats?

Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill
decvax!duke!unc!bts     (USENET)
bts.unc@CSnet-Relay (lesser NETworks)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 7:02:50-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!root @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Forry Ackerman in THRILLER
From: akov68::boyajian

    Is there anyone else in SFL who has noticed the cameo by Forrest
J Ackerman in the "Michael Jackson's THRILLER" video. In the scene
in the movie theater, Forry is sitting right behind Jackson. I
wasn't sure it was him (the image wasn't too clear, even when I
froze the frame (I put in on the same tape as AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN
LONDON, appropriately enough), but there was a notice in the
December LOCUS that it was him.

                            ---jayembee
                               Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard
                               decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 22:11:44-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!we13!ll1!cej @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF movies

        Dark Star is a GREAT movie, but in the book the scenes
between Sgt. Pinback and the "smart" bombs are more involved, and
MUCH better.  (As with most, the movie doesn't quit measure up to
the book.)

        And if I hadn't read THX-1138 before I saw the movie I would
NEVER have been able to follow it at ALL.  In fact, I watched it the
first time with a friend who had never heard of it, and I was busy
the whole time explaining what was going on.  (I've also heard that
it was G. Lucas's thesis project, or some such.)

                                Chuck Jones
...we13!ll1!cej                 AT&T Communications

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 84 23:24:09-EST (Wed)
From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!tektronix!reed!cdi!sequent!monroe @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fave SF movies - (nf)

        True, Rocky Horror was fun, but not the movie.  The crowd
has better lines and better acting.  For mind boggling fun, I would
take 'Dark Star'.

                                        Doug Monroe
                                {ogcvax,cdi}!sequent!monroe

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 84 6:36:08-PST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fave SF movies

Some of my fave SF is kind of older, but here goes:

The whole Planet of the Apes series, especially {Beneath the, Escape
from the} Planet of the Apes.  (Roddy McDowall played the major role
as Cornelius in Planet and Escape, and as Caesar in Conquest and
Battle.)

The Omega Man, starring Charlton Heston.

Soylent Green, starring the same.  I especially enjoyed the scenes
where he investigated the Soylent plant.

Logan's Run (forgot who starred in it).

And, let's not forget, the entire Star Wars series, especially TESB.

--greg
...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds (uucp)
Gds@XX (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Jan 84 17:22:19-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #10

Of course the density of the "vacuum" increases closer to the sun.
The sun sprays millions of tons of matter out into space every year.
All sorts of wonderful things from photons to protons (or is
electons?)  that light up your local radiation belts for auras,
push your solar sail around the system, and charge up the ionosphere
so you can recieve radio broadcasts without standing under the
antenna.  Sure, its thin, but it's not empty by a long stretch.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 9:48:52-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

Just wondering, how do you "collect" a vacuum?  Perhaps you mean
"uncollect"?  To collect something, there has to be something to
collect, right?  Then, it must follow that to collect nothing,
nothing can not be collected, thus, you can't collect a vacuum.:-).

Puzzeled by it all --T. C. Wheeler

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 84 12:22:59-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

Parsec - a unit of distance.  I take for my source Azimov's "I,
Robot" Liar.  Note the dial in the hyperdrive ship (0 to 1 million
parsecs).  On the first trip, note the dial, 30,000 parsecs and the
comment that they must now be out of the galaxy.  The story was
written over 30 years ago ( maybe 40).  When the technicians
returned from their trip, the dial was again on 0.  Who, in his
right mind, would challange Azimov?:-)

T. C. Wheeler

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 84 16:43:02-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light-Relativistic Querry

No matter what you do, you will not notice any change in how fast
time passes for you.  However, to an observer who is in another
frame of reference, *subject to the condition that both of your
frames are inertial* (that is, you are both free from all
acceleration and gravity fields), you will appear to be

<1>:    shorter by a factor of

                        L' =  L * sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

<2>:    having time dilation by a factor of

                                    t
                        t' =  --------------   and
                              sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)


What this means is that if you (in the first frame) flash a light
every second, the other observer will see it every 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
seconds.  Similarly, if you pass through a number of `electric eyes'
(see below), a length of 1 meter in the first frame will appear to
be sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) meters long in the other frame.


                             LIGHT SOURCES

        *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *
        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |
        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |
        |       |       ============= ->|       |       |       |
        |       |         meterstick    |       |       |       |
        |       |                       |       |       |       |
        v       v       v       v       v       v       v       v

                               DETECTORS

A very important fact is that these equations are symmetrical.  That
is, while the second observer sees *you* (the first observer)
undergoing length contraction and time dilation, you observe *her*
undergoing length contraction and time dilation also.  And to each
of you, you seem to be perfectly normal.

A few of you have probabily heard of the twin paradox, and wonder
how it can be reconciled with the above information.  In fact, it is
an improperly posed question in *special relativity* because in
order for the question to have meaning, acceleration must occur.
Yet special relativity does not allow for acceleration. --> You must
use general relativity to fully understand the solution. (For those
of you who think that is a cop-out, when did you stop beating your
wife?)

Finally, the question concerning FTL cannot be answered in the
context of relativity.  The theory does not even pretend to be
accurate for such conditions, and there is absolutely no
experimental data.  If you want to claim that everyone turns into
toads whenever they use a FTL drive, I won't argue because the
discussion is of the form

                false premise --> any conclusion

and such statements are always true in conventional logic.  Gimmicks
in stories such as Larry Niven's `Known Space' series (i.e., a ship
cannot enter hyperspace within a certain (variable) distance from a
major mass) may quite possibily be true, but are presently
conjecture only.

For those with a fairly good mathematical background, I would
recommend Wheeler's *Spacetime Physics*.  It can be difficult at
times, but it covers most of the paradoxes, and (for the
masochistic) can be used to lead into Misner/Wheeler/Thorne 's
*Gravitation*, a very complete book on general relativity.  However,
*Gravitation* is at the graduate level, and can easily take several
years to understand without help.

Bruce Giles
UUCP:           decvax!ucf-cs!giles
cs-net:         giles@ucf
ARPA:           giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay
Snail:          University of Central Florida
                Dept of Math, POB 26000
                Orlando Fl 32816

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #14
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jan 84 1329-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 Jan 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:
                Books - Brunner & MacLeish & Wolfe,
                Films - Indiana Jones,
                Miscellaneous - Vacuums (2 msgs) & Time Dilation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 1984 04:40-PST
Subject: John Brunner
From: BILLW@SRI-KL

Since I am a fan of John Brunner, and since I happen to have my
collection of Brunner books here in my office, I guess I'll take a
shot at doing an overall review.  Ill say right off the bat that I
haven't read "Crucible of Time" yet.  I just don't buy hardcopy books
unless they are REALLY good.  Our local library has it in their new
book section, so I might get to it in a couple of days. [I was
planning on doing this before the last WorldCon, since Brunner was
the guest of honor, but I never got around to it.]

Anyway: John Brunner is a professional writer.  He is not, and has
never been any kind of scientist.  Thus many of his books are full
of scientific flaws, although he is largely able to get around this
by not pretending to put hard science in his stories.  This also
means that even his worst books are pretty well written.  Brunner is
at his absolute dealing with people and their reaction to science or
technology or whatever.  The absolute best Brunner deals with
situations easily predicted from the present, and that effect large
range of people, so that he can go in and show how different types
of people will react to the given stress.  Brunner writes very
effective and powerful images of human emotions.

Second best Brunner is the ability to invent an alien (though
possibly human) culture, and either show it by itself or contrast it
with a nearby human culture.  Even the more mundane books frequently
have a liberal sprinkling of made-up words and currently
non-existent fads that seem quite plausible.

John Brunner also is something of an experimenter.  It seems that
every once in a while he'll decide that he would like to try and
write an SF novel based on some obscure piece of history, a less
popular field of science, a chess game, or some such.  These are
occasionally interesting, occasionally boring, and occasionally
totally unintelligible.

There is also an occasional Brunner novel that seems to have been
written so that he can eat.

Here's a list of my collection of Brunner books, with short blurbs.
These are in decreasing order of overall quality.

The Shockwave Rider.
        An absolute classic computer/sf novel.  No one working in
        the computer field should miss reading this book.
        Basically, the US is connected by a datanet that is used for
        everything, giving people so much freedom that they are
        terrified to be free.  The main character has dropped out of
        the system by making himself a computer "tape worm" that
        allows him to change identities at will.  Also
        extrapolations of Government incompetence, think tanks,
        "that's incredible", and the great bay quake of 85.  I even
        bought a hardcover copy of this one!

The Sheep Look Up.
        Basically an extrapolation of the unchecked environmental
        pollution occurring during the middle-late 60's.  Written in
        a sort of collage style interspersing several viewpoints and
        sub-plots.  A depressing book full of individual triumphs
        helpless agains overall doom.  Also more Government
        stupidity.

Stand on Zanzibar.
        In the same way the previous book is based on pollution, SoZ
        is an extrapolation of unchecked population growth, with its
        attendant pressures on the individual members.  Also
        contains a possibly sentient computer, and a wealth of
        invented words.  Also collaged (even the table of contents
        is scrambled!).  Not quite as depressing as tSLU.

The Jagged Orbit.
        An extrapolation of racial paranoia and "the right to bear
        arms", in a near future where an individual can purchase
        weapons sufficient to raise a city block.  This book also
        contains one of the all-time greatest computer error
        messages.  It even has an upbeat ending, more or less.

[the above books are grouped together, having generally equivalent
 quality, tone, and style.  I suggest everyone read all of them.]

The Whole Man.
        The worlds most powerful telepath was malformed at birth.
        Can he still succeed in curing psychological problems in
        others (which is what telepaths DO, of course)?  The main
        character here is particularly vividly portrayed.

The Stone That Never Came Down.
        How to save the world, given a drug that increases human
        intelligence.

The Long Result.
        The sociological implications of star travel, and most
        especially, what will happen when one of the colonies passes
        earth in technological development.  Also Aliens.

The Infinitive of Go.
        A newly invented matter transmitter has an unexpected flaw:
        the universe you land in is indeterminant.

Polymath.
        Social implications of a shipwrecked colony spacecraft.
        Whether to stay, or try and repair the craft and leave.  [A
        polymath is a sort of expert in everything, able to gather
        and quickly integrate data pertinent to many different
        fields of science.  This sort of person is a recurring
        character in many Brunner novels, both after people are
        trained for such positions, and earlier in history when they
        sort of occur by accident.]

Total Eclipse.
        Based on archaeology!  A distant planet is found to have the
        remnants of an advanced technology.  Can earth scientists
        find out what happened to them in time to save earth from
        the same fate?  Another depressing book.

The Stardroppers.
        A strange device allows people to hear funny noises that
        they believe are coming from the stars.  You can buy one at
        your local hi-fi shop, but some of the people who have been
        listening have started to vanish!

Players at the Game of People.
        Someone or something is providing selected individuals with
        the means to do whatever they want, and live in impossible
        luxury.  The question is who, and why?  This book went to a
        lot of trouble to create a conflict and a fascinating
        scenario, and then it just sort of stopped, which I found
        very annoying!

Catch a Falling Star.
        A sort of quest novel.  Far future earth has forgotten its
        science, and is indifferent to possible approaching doom in
        the form of an approaching star.  Except for the hero, who
        attempts to travel to a mountain told of in legends, which
        may be able to save the world.

The Squares of the City.
        Based on traffic engineering and a chess game!  Two
        latin-american power groups play a deadly game with people
        for pieces, and our hero is a knight who isn't to happy with
        the way things are going.

Born Under Mars.
        If you were born in the martian colony, you might have a
        different outlook on the world...

Age of Miracles.
        Earth has been made into a sort of switching point for an
        alien travel system.  The surviving humans too insignificant
        to notice...

TimeScoop.
        Do you think you could think of something better to do with
        a time machine than bring forward a bunch of your relatives
        for a big party?  Well, it isn't clear that the main
        character can.

Bedlam Planet.
        What should of been a successful colony is suffering from
        scurvy because a local bacterium is stealing vitamin C
        before the humans can use it.  Should/can the colonists stay
        and fight the problem, or should they give up and go home,
        or maybe something else.

Web of Everywhere.
        Social implications of transport booths.  Invasion of
        privacy is the ultimate crime, for example.

The Dramaturges of Yan.
        A planet with incomprehensible relics, and an apathetic
        local population.  What does it mean?  Also celestial art.

Times Without Number.
        Sort of a standard time patrol novel.  The present has the
        descendants of the spanish empire in control.

Manshape.
        Why would a world refuse the Bridge, which links together
        humanity spread across dozens of planets?

Double,Double.
        A monster from the sea that can take the form of creatures
        that it happens to eat.  It could have been a grade B movie!

The Avengers of Carrig.
        A non-interference policy is one thing, but how is it
        enforced?  It isn't easy to expunge a would be king with high
        technology without interfering even more.

More Things in Heaven.
        Strange monsters are appearing in the sky, and the crew of a
        starship that hasn't returned yet is seen on earth!  This is
        essentially a first contact story.

Meeting at infinity.
        Poorly understood alien technology can save lives, but it
        can also have some unexpected side effects.

The Productions of Time.
        A group of actors and associated professionals seem to be
        expected to perform more than just a play for some unseen
        spectators, and unknown reasons.

Into the Slave Nebula.
        Earth is prosperous and decadent, but the murder of an
        android pushes the protagonist into interstellar intrigue.
        Based on a sort of arguable premise.

There's also "The World Swappers", and "Quicksand", but I don't even
remember what either is about.  Most of these books are rather old,
although some seem to be being re-released in the US currently.

Enjoy
BillW

------------------------------

Date: 13-Jan-1984 0907
From: decwrl!rhea!kermit!parmenter (Tom Parmenter)
From: <decwrl!rhea!kermit!parmenter@Shasta>
Subject: That Rod

Rod MacLeish is a well-known radio commentator and son of the poet
Archibald MacLeish, I think.

------------------------------

Date: 16 January 1984 09:06 est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK at RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Castle of the Otter

According to the dust jacket, The Castle of the Otter is a
collection of essays and insights on how he (GW) came to write the
four part journey through the mysterious lands of Urth".  It's short
(113 pp) including the bio-bibliography.  No, I haven't read it yet,
it's in my "pile".  Roz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 84 07:15 EST
From: Richard Pavelle <RP%SCRC-TENEX@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM

My 8yr old son tells me that

INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM

is the subtitle on the video cassettes of Raiders of the Lost Ark.
If so perhaps the information on the title of the sequel is not
correct.  Comments?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 12:29:46-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!weamc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light,Density of Vacuum

In this area of the universe, no one I know considers a vacuum very
dense. I would also not want a job trying to "collect" vacuum. If
you got paid by how much you "collected," you would always be broke
if you were any good at it.

                      Andy Cohill
                      Central Services Organization

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 12:39:36-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

Come now gentlefolk, "density" of a vacuum?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 16 Jan 84 10:36:03-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Tima Dilation

Special Relativity predicts the Time Dilation effect, which roughly
says that a time interval delta-t measured by one clock will seem to
have magnitude delta-t' measured by a clock moving with relative
velocity v, where

        delta-t' = delta-t / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

Since we can imagine either clock at rest and the other in motion,
evidently each clock thinks the other is running slow.  The
situation is symmetrical.

However, the situation is not symmetrical when a starship takes a
round trip to Alpha Centauri, since the ship accelerates and
decelerates, but the Earth stays (roughly) where it is.  The ship's
chronometer starts the voyage at rest relative to the Earth, and
returns to relative rest at the end of the voyage.  It is then found
to be slow.

Hence the notorious Twin Paradox.  Tweedledum makes the trip,
leaving Tweedeldee behind to feed the Monstrous Crow.  Ten years
pass, and then the starship returns, but Tweedledum is only one year
older.

During the voyage, our intrepid cosmonauts lived in their own
"proper time", which remained totally consistent.  That is, the men
got bristly when the chronometer said that 24 hours had passed;
everyone got hungry two or three times in each 16-hour "day" and
slept each 8-hour "night" (none of that kinky decadent Starburst
stuff on this ship!)  But, if they looked out of the portholes, they
saw some quite strange things, as magnificently described in
Anderson's Tau Zero ("To Outlive Eternity" when originally
serialised in Galaxy).

The faster they go, the slower ship time passes.  So after a long
trip, Earth is many thousand years older (see The Long Way Home,
again by Anderson) However, everyone ages normally at their own
proper time, so a starship captain 5000 Earth years old has still
lived only 20000 ship days, eaten 60000 meals, etc.

Finally, travel faster than light is of course impossible.  Not
quite: the equations say that a body ACCELERATED to the speed of
light would acquire infinite mass and energy in the process:

        E = m(v) * c^2

        m(v) = m(0) / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)

The loophole is that a body might "tunnel" through the light
barrier, and make an instantaneous transition from sublight motion
to superlight motion, entering the world of Feinberg's tachyons.  We
have little idea what happens then, but moving backwards in time
does not seem to be part of it.  It seems possible for particles to
travel backwards in time at sublight velocities (consider
positrons), but if superlight velocities exist then the first
equation above suggests some kind of "imaginary" time, in the
sqrt(-1) sense.

My guess is that there are no superlight velocities, and that while
truly instantaneous transitions between places may be possible,
motion between them at Warp 6 or whatever is not.

Piers Anthony's "Cluster" series (Vicinity Cluster, Chaining the
Lady, Kirlian Quest) have several good ideas about the social
consequences of various methods of interstellar travel.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #15
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 84 1317-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Jan 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:
              Books - Brooks & Smith & Wombats in SF &
                      Detectives & Recommendations,
              Films - Favorite SF Movies (3 msgs) & 
                      Michael Jackson's Thriller,
              Miscellaneous - Speed of Light & 
                      Faster Than Light Travel &
                      Parsecs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 1984  18:26 EST (Mon)
From: "Warren J. Madden" <T.RABBIT@EE>
Subject: Elfstones - (nf)

After passively reading this digest for two months now, I have
finally found something that I feel competent about commenting on.
Will wonders never cease.

I have read the Sword of Shannara twice and believe that the chances
of it being a "narrative put to a D&D adventure" are very slim.  The
book parallels the Lord of the Ring trilogy so much that it verges
on the ridiculous.  I don't want to spoil the book for those that
haven't read it, but I can't resist giving a few examples to support
my case:

     -- A quest do destroy an evil force bent on world domination
     -- The quest is undertaken by a group composed of members from
        various races
     -- The group is advised by a mysterious being with magical powers
     -- This being does battle with a minion of the evil lord over a
        flaming pit

     And that's only the start.  The only redeeming twist in the
whole thing was that the setting was not a Middle-earth type world
but a world long after it had been devastated (and recovered) from a
nuclear holocaust.  If this was a D&D adventure, it leaves no doubt
as to what the adventure was based on.

     On the other hand, however, The Elfstones of Shannara is
nothing like the Sword.  I found that the story was more
interesting, perhaps because I was paying attention to it rather
than looking for the next analogy to LOTR.  Still, I knew what would
happen chapters before it actually did, which spoiled it somewhat.
Elfstones is a much better book than Sword, but I have read better.


                                          And so it goes,
                                          Warren J. Madden

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 1984 2355-EST
From: Janice Eisen
Subject: Cordwainer Smith (and cats, too!)
Reply-to: MDC.JANICE at MIT-OZ

I'd like to third (fourth, fifth?) the vote for Cordwainer Smith's
Instrumentality series.  A factual error was made in one of the
comments about NORSTRILIA.  It is *not* an abridgement of the two
originally published novels.  The publisher split the original
against Smith's wishes.  NORSTRILIA is the novel as Smith intended
it to be.

All Smith's short fiction has now been collected in two anthologies:
THE BEST OF CORDWAINER SMITH and THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF MANKIND.
There is a definite time sequence of the stories, but they were
divided into two collections with no regard for that.  Overall, the
stories in THE BEST OF are better, but there are pieces of
information it would be nice to have in the other book.  My favorite
way to read the books is to have them both and to alternate,
following the time-line.

As to cats: Smith loved cats.  The most commonly appearing
"underpeople" in his stories are made from cats.  You will find real
cats in "The Game of Rat and Dragon" which has been anthologized
quite a lot.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 Jan 1984 09:36:26-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!eludom!winalski (Paul S. Winalski)
From: <decwrl!rhea!eludom!winalski@Shasta>
Subject: Wombats in SF

Zelazny's (sp?) DOORWAYS IN THE SAND has an alien in it disguised as
a talking wombat.

--PSW

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following for the same
information:

Chris Heiny (Heiny.henr@parc-maxcx)
Mark A. Rosenstein (mar@mit-borax)
]

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 16 Jan 1984 14:19:21-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson (Dan L Pierson)
From: <decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson@Shasta>
Subject: Private Detectives with White Suits

        It's a series by John T. Phillifent.  The novel(la?) you
cited is "Genius Unlimited" - I've read at least one other.

                                dan
                                ...!decvax!decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson
                                <PIERSON.DIGITAL@RAND-RELAY>

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 1984  13:11 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Seeking recommendations on SF Author

There's Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber, Katherine Kurtz' Deryni
series (although more fantasy than SF), Farmer's Riverworld and
World of Tiers series, Harry Harrison's Deathworld, Stainless Steel
Rat, and To The Stars series, and Chalker's Four Lords of the
Diamond, to list a few.

------------------------------

Date: 16 January 1984 15:21 est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK at RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Favorite SF Movie

In addition to many of the movies already mentioned, my first sf
movie (and all time favorite, I suppose, because of that) was "The
Day the Earth Stood Still".  That was my first science fiction
exposure of any kind, and really got me started.  It was not until
after I was "grown" (ie over 21) and thoroughly addicted, that I
finally saw "Forbidden Planet" (spelling ? ... correct title ?) --
the one with Walter Pidgeon, Leslie Nielson, Robby the Robot, et al
(lots of now "famous" faces in that one!).
               Roz

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 1984 12:25:34 PST
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: Favorite movies & THX info

   I get the impression that some people don't watch anything older
than about ten years, or they at least only remember recent movies
as favorites.  I agree that there have been some terrific films made
recently, but some of my favorites are older movies.

   I'll second "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and "Forbidden
Planet", and add "The War of the Worlds" (by George Pal, great
effects, and quite scary in some places, like when the cylinder
blasts those three bumpkins that go walking up waving a
handkerchief); "Them" (very good, the best big-bug movie ever, I
just wish that James Whitmore hadn't bought it at the end...remember
the opening, with the little girl walking through the desert in
shock? spooky!); and I must mention my favorite film of all, even
though no one may agree, "Robinson Crusoe on Mars".  That's right,
folks, this film was scientifically accurate to the knowledge and
theories of the time (1964), up to the point where Draper encounters
the aliens and meets Friday.  The equipment that was salvaged from
the ship was very interesting, especially the Omnicom transciever,
the portable VCR- radio that Draper had.  I liked the psychological
study of one man facing being alone forever, and I loved the music
by Van Cleave.  If you haven't seen the uncut version, including the
"training tapes" on survival, you've missed out.

   About THX1138: Lucas made a film in college called THX1138-4EB,
about a fellow who wants to escape a totalitarian society, where
everyone has an I.D. number on the forehead.  At the end, he does,
but is not pursued as he leaves the underground city to the
presumed-deadly surface.  In the final scene he is running into a
nice sunset, maybe on a beach, and you here a voice-over of the city
controllers notifying other citizens of his accidental death.
(details may be slightly off)
   I saw this several years back.  It lasted about fifteen minutes,
had been shot in computer classrooms, shopping malls, parking
structures, etc., had minimal effects, props, costumes, and acting,
but I liked it far better than the theatrical THX1138.

Steve (carroll@isib)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Jan 84 01:10:53-MST
From: Dudley Irish <IRISH@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: Favorite (or best) SF movies.

I have seen most of my favorites on this list except for two:

A Boy and his Dog.  This is based on Elison's short story by the
same name and is one of the best adaptations to the screen of a SF
story that I have every seen.  One of my favorite tricks is to take
a young woman to see it, just to see her reaction to the ending.  A
boy and his dog ...

On the Lathe of Heaven.  This is the other best adaptation to the
screen of a SF story.  Based on the novel by the same title by Le
Guin, this relatively unknown movie was made for PBS.  I would say
that it is a must see.  Whereas the violence in the above movie
might turn some off, there is nothing in this movie except
intriguing ideas, surprisingly good sets, and good acting.  A real
winner for PBS.

                                                Dudley Irish
                                                IRISH@UTAH-20

P.S. "On the Lathe of Heaven" has the only Zen aliens that I have
ever seen.

------------------------------

Date: 17 JAN 1984 0016 EST
From: METZ at MIT-ML
Subject: Forrest Ackerman

Forrest Ackerman is the man seated behind Michael Jackson in the
short film "Thriller", and like Jackson, who plays the presumably
`bad' guy, he sits through the truly terrifying film they are
watching without any particular fear, although those around them
seem terrified. In fact, Ackerman has an intent look of total
absorption on his face, and Jackson grins through the whole thing,
right up to and including the immortal lines
        "Look - it's a message, written in blood!"

        "What does it say?"

        "See you next Wednesday...."
                                        :-><-: Harold S. Metz

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 84 13:41:42 PST (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

This entire disscussion reminds me of the ignorant TV repairperson
who, upon dropping a picture tube and hearing a nasty hissing sound,
exclaimed,

"Damn, now all of the vacuum has leaked out!"

Perry

------------------------------

From: Joe Buck <buck@NRL-CSS>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 84 17:29:43 EST
Subject: FTL travel may be possible, but Einstein can't be ignored

Special relativity is relevant to SF, even though this is
incovenient for many authors. Remember that in the past, when new
physics was discovered, the old physics was almost always shown to
be a first-order approximation.

Even if new physics is invented to allow FTL travel, that won't
revoke special relativity as an approximation (just as we still use
Newton's laws in engineering, even though we know them to be
ultimately false).  Special relativity shows that if FTL travel is
possible, time travel (and causality violation) must occur as well.
New physics won't get rid of that (specifically, if there is one
reference frame in which I am first at point A, then at point B, and
I travelled faster than light between them, another reference frame
can be found in which I was at B' first, then at A').

Actually, relativity doesn't explicitly prohibit FTL travel. It just
shows that an object with mass can't be accelerated continuously
from a velocity below c to one above c. Einstein's interpretation,
that no information can travel faster than c, was probably
influenced by his intense belief in causality, the same one that
kept him from accepting quantum physics.

I'm not saying FTL travel, or FTL transmission of information, is
not possible. What I am saying is that having it lets you do other
things, and has other consequences.

SF authors (for the most part) tend to ignore these issues; I
haven't seen any that point out (or exploit, why not?) this
fundamental connection between FTL travel and time travel. If anyone
could point me to such a story, I'd appreciate it.

Joe Buck
ARPA: buck@nrl-css
UUCP: ...decvax!linus!nrl-css!buck

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 84 23:12:08 PST (Thu)
From: John Mangrich <grich@uci-750a>
Subject: Parsec as a unit of time

 Well, remember it's "A *long* time ago in a galaxy far, far
away...". I suggest that WE are using the term incorrectly in modern
times!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #16
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 84 1219-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:
              Books - Bova & High (2 msgs) & Varley &
                      Wolfe & Buck Rogers & Wombats in SF &
                      Book Request & Recommended SF Authors
              Film - Star Wars on Video Cassettes & Indiana Jones

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Quickey Book Review:  "Voyagers," by Ben Bova
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 84 18:27:45 EST
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

***** Not a spoiler, in my opinion.  Nothing to spoil, anyway. *****

Just finished "Voyagers," by Ben Bova, last night.  This is without
doubt the worst novel (SF or otherwise) I have read in a long while.
The dialogue is grade B, the characterizations grade C, and the plot
grade Z.  This from a man who wrote a book on how to write SF?
"Those who can't do, teach."  I'm embarrassed for him.

Plot keywords:  First contact, tough scientist, faculty politics,
    evil Russians, Russian good guy, Kremlin infighting, idiotic
    government, mind-control devices, beautiful lab assistant
    (shades of "`What a set of knockers' `Why, thank you, Doctor'"),
    martial arts, moronic military, uncontrollably high testosterone
    levels, love unrequited, assorted scum.

The plot devices in this book were completely stereotyped.  No
surprises.  No new SF ideas, either.  "The bureaucratic politics of
space" (to use the back cover blurb) which Mr. Bova purportedly
excels in presenting, were the most asinine, self-indulgent, and
idiotic parts of the book.  Ridiculous.

Is all Bova like this?  This was my first encounter.  (And I would
not have read this, had it not been the only SF lying around the
house.)  No wonder no one complained when Varley's new book usurped
one of his titles ("Millenium").  What would the reaction have been
had the new book been titled, "Dune"?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 84 19:56:07-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Subject: High & Wolfe - (nf)

As for Philip E. High, I think he wrote quite a few halves of Ace 
Doubles. I've got three with stories by him, out of perhaps ten ADs.  
Don't know anything about High himself.

                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: Thu 19 Jan 84 04:07:19-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: High and Brunner

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hurray for High!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey, that's great!  Some other Philip E. High fans!  It's a pity
that there's so little chance you would be able to read the rest of
his books, as, unlike his compatriot John Brunner, if you enjoyed
one you'd probably like them all.

Most of what people admire by John Brunner is not to my taste, tho I
do like his non-fiction (nobody's said ANYthing about his
"consumers' report" on time machines!!!!) and his "uppers",
STARDROPPERS, THE LONG RESULT, and particularly THE WHOLE MAN.  If
you've tried some better known Brunner's that turned you off, give
\these/ a read, for they're neither ponderous nor dismal.

But, Philip E. High, between 1964 and 1968, had eight good 2nd rate
novellas/novelettes published in the U.S., mostly in Ace doubles
(while Wollheim was editor, I think.  So I wondered why we never got
any as DAW's.)  Once in a blue moon you might run across one
nowadays, as nobody seems to want them except collectors trying to
fill in all the numbers of their Ace Double collections.
Fortunately, I managed to get the whole set some years ago with only
minor difficulty-- specifically, interference from the great
orthographic similarity of his name with Philip K. Dick's.  When
you're scanning unsorted rows of paperbacks for a name, you don't so
much read as rely on a sort of visual template.  And those two names
both fit the same shape-pattern.

Anyhow, the 8 titles are:
   1964  NO TRUCE WITH TERRA
         THE PRODIGAL SUN
   1966  THE MAD METROPOLIS
   1967  REALITY FORBIDDEN
         THESE SAVAGE FUTURIANS
         TWIN PLANETS
   1968  INVADER ON MY BACK
         THE TIME MERCENARIES

I didn't hear anything more of High till somewhere along in the 70's
when I ran across a reference to a non-fiction book by him, maybe
for kids, to do with dinosaurs.  Then sometime maybe 2-3 years ago I
saw a couple unfamiliar titles by him in lists of new British SF.
Hardbacks, tho, so too pricey for me.  But I can't help wondering
what his new stuff would be like after that ten year hiatus.  If
only SF-LOVERS was truly intercontinental!

------------------------------

Date: Thur, Jan 18 1984
From: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@Berkeley (Ron Jarrell)
Reply-to: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@BERKELEY.ARPA
Subject: Pending books

Anyone know if John Varley is actually going to write the book he set
up in Wizard?  Presumably the title would have to be Demon....

  Thanks,
     -Ron Jarrell
   ARPA: Tim%vpivm2.bitnet@Berkeley.arpa
 Bitnet: Tim@vpivm2 MCIMail: RJarrell
  Telex: 6501088065

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 84 19:56:07-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Subject: High & Wolfe - (nf)

*Castle of the Otter* was published last year by Ziesing Bros. I had 
heard Wolfe was doing a fifth New Sun book with a title something like
*The Urth of the New Sun*, but CotO isn't it -- rather, it's a book
about the writing of the Book of the New Sun, and was picked up by the
SF Book Club not long ago. I don't know if/when *The Urth of the New
Sun* will show up, though.
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: Thur, Jan 18 1984
From: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@Berkeley (Ron Jarrell)
Reply-to: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@BERKELEY.ARPA
Subject: Pending books

Does anyone know what the status is on the Buck Rogers continuation?  
I've read the first 3 I think, up to the point that Buck goes to the 
planet of the Prl'Arek, but haven't seen any since, though they might
have changed authors again.


  Thanks,
     -Ron Jarrell
   ARPA: Tim%vpivm2.bitnet@Berkeley.arpa
 Bitnet: Tim@vpivm2 MCIMail: RJarrell
  Telex: 6501088065

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 1984 1432-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Wombat SF

"Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats" by either Coulson or Weese.
About a bunch of fans who save the world at an Aussiecon.
                        wz

------------------------------

Date: Wed 18 Jan 84 06:02:32-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: FTL time dilation story

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A Lost Story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Somewhere around 1970-- not too long before Laser Books hit the
market, whenever THAT was-- I read but lost track of a short story I
particularly liked involving time dilation.

Tenuous kinesthetic memory says I read it in hardback, so it would
have been a library book.  It had something of the flavor of
Sturgeon, but I don't t-h-i-n-k it was by him.  It's a pity to spoil
it here, so I'll tell it just as well as I can manage.  This is my
only chance of finding it again.

It largely takes place as flashbacks while the protagonist is
traveling by monorail, alone, somewhere in the environs of West
Virginia or Pennsylvania.  The loveliness of the revived landscape
is new to him because he has just been released from a century of
cryogenic imprisonment imposed because of something he had written
mildly critical of the then-government.  He had been a young college
professor, recently and deeply happily married.

In the intervening years the repressive regime had been overthrown,
but the cryogenic process had been booby-trapped so that any attempt
to unfreeze the victims before their terms were up would kill them.

He is still as young, and has been assured of any benefit the
benevolent contemporary society can provide in making a new life for
himself.  But that is little comfort to a man whose "just yesterday"
when he saw the agonized face of the coltish young girl who had been
his bride, determinedly standing where they could share a last look
as he was taken to incarceration-- had been a hundred years ago.

His thoughts are all of her as he makes this pilgrimage to the
little settlement where they had set up their first home.  He
recalls the furniture, the curtains...  the \place/ that enfolded
their love.  After a hundred years he wonders if even the foundation
of their cottage will be left, but even that little would be a
preciously poignant relic to him.

He alights from the all-automated monorail car and makes his way
past the little tree-nestled settlement, glad that there's no one
about.  Ignoring the sounds of pleasant revelry in the community
house, he finds the path to the cottage site...  and it's still
there!  No one answers his knock, but the door is unlatched and he
goes in.  He is shocked to see everything just as it had been a
hundred years before, even the color of the curtains.  And he knows
it would be impossible.  Then he observes minute differences, a
slightly different angle on a chair-back, wallpaper pattern which is
only similar, not the same.

Had she somehow arranged for this before she died however many years
ago, he wonders.  Had she known he would come and ached to make him
welcome in this new world of largely dispersed rural population
served by the automated monorails, an uncrowded world, thanks to the
great starships which have been settling new worlds during all those
years he slept.

And there, of course, is the crux of the story-- a ploy unimpressive
in 1984, but fresh enough in the late 60's to catch one unexpecting.

He hears a step-- turns-- and she is there.  Poised, no longer a
coltish girl, with all the mature beauty he had foreseen; mature,
but not old!

It was such a beautiful happy ending!  YOU can figure it out-- With
everyone pushing to go to fresh new planets, there was great need
for personnel to staff the starships, going AND coming, people
without ties at either end of the journeys who would not be
distressed by the time dilation effect of the FTL drive.  She saw in
that the way to pass the century in a few perceived years, shipped
out and back in such a pattern as to be on hand when he was revived,
came back and reconstructed their home, and is HERE!

Where can I find this story again!!???!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 84 13:51:18-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!cbosgd!cbscc!trb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Recommendations on SF Authors

In regard to your request for authors, here are two that no one has
mentioned:

        Brian Aldiss - He is English and has been writing sf since
                       the late 50's. He has many good books, some
                       of my favorites are ; "Cryptozoic", "The Long
                       After noon of Earth" and "The Billion Year
                       Spree".  The last is a history of sf.  His
                       latest project is a trilogy (vol. 2 was just
                       released in hardback). It is about a frozen
                       world that has summer once every couple of
                       thousand years.  It is the Helliconia Trilogy
                       (vol. 1 is Helliconia Spring and vol. 2 is
                       Helliconia Summer).  I've not read these yet,
                       but the reviews on them are good.

        Michael Moorcock - Another Brit. He has a trilogy "Dancers
                       at the End of Time" which is a look at the
                       end of the world. The set includes: "An Alien
                       Heat, The Hollow Land and The End of All
                       Songs".  He also wrote "Behold the Man",
                       which is a sf look at Christ - very good!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 84 9:21:42-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!whuxle!pyuxll!abnjh!u1100a!pyuxn!pyuxww!pyuxqq!pat @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: TESB and ROTJ on video cassettes?

Does anyone out there in netland know if/when TESB and ROTJ will be
available on video cassette?  I have heard that there is much more
control over them, and may never be released in this way.  Is this
true?  Are there bootleg copies available?  Any info will be
appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Pat Iurilli CSO Piscataway, NJ {ihnp4, harpo}!pyuxqq!pat

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 84 11:47 PST (Wednesday)
From: FUSCO.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #14

Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom IS the next movie in the saga.
The rental versions of Raiders of the Lost Arc has a 1 minute
preview for Temple of Doom.

Joe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #17
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jan 84 2314-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 22 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
                 Books - Asimov & Bova & Bradley &
                         Brunner (2 msgs) & Cats in SF & 
                         Recommended Authors,
                 Films - Indiana Jones & Favorite SF Movies (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - General Relativity & Density of Vacuums &
                         Faster Than Light & Parsecs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 Jan 1984 14:16:10-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!eiffel!maxwell@Shasta
Subject: Help me find a book....

After looking in the Boston area for some time now, I've finally
decided to ask readers of sf-lovers for a lead on an out-of-print
book.

I'm looking for at least one and preferably two copies of
"Tomorrow's Children", an anthology edited by Issac Asimov.  At one
time, about five years ago, I found a paperback copy in a regular
bookshop; my assumption is/was that it was then in print.  I wasn't
able to afford it then, and haven't found it since.

I need at least one paperback copy to replace the one I borrowed
*and lost*, and would like one for myself.  If anyone can assist by
locating a store with cop(y/ies), or has one (or more ?) to sell,
I'd be anxious to hear from you.

For those not familiar with the book, it is a collection of some
*very* good stories about children. "Gillead" (?) by Zenna
Henderson, one of the chapters in her "Pilgrimage: The Book of the
People", was my first introduction to Henderson. Other stories, like
"Star Bright" and "The Cave Boy", were some of the best short
stories I've ever read. Although they were about juveniles, the
stories weren't juvenile. I heartily recommend the book to all who
enjoy warm, people-oriented speculative short fiction.


- Sid Maxwell (603) 881-2064

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 84 9:45:36-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review:  "Voyagers," by Ben Bova

I have to agree with the review of "Voyagers."  I haven't liked much
of what Bova has written, anyway.  Two that I have liked are
"Colony" for its wide scope and decent (and believable) set of
extrapolations, and "Millenium" (though not as much).  Other than
that, I haven't really liked anything Bova has produced.  AS you
say, perhaps teaching has gone to his head -- it certainly hasn't
gone to his pen.

B.K. Cobb
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihuxs!okie

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 1984 1254-EST
From: The Menagerie <G.MENAGERIE at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Darkover

Can anyone give me a list of all the Darkover books? I just recently
started reading the series, and I enjoy it very much, so I want to
be able to read all of them. Thanks.
                                 Greg McMullan(G.Menagerie@MIT-EECS)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Jan 84 04:22 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: John Brunner

Off the top of my head (further info when I can check my extensive
library of Brunner at home) if you like the "eco" Brunners - and I
agree that the trilogy you mentioned is probably his best work, then
you'll also like "The Jagged Orbit" and "The Wrong End of Time",
both of which are set in the nearish future, and probably also "The
Infinitive of Go", which has some nice paranoid aspects particularly
appropriate in this year.
          Deryk Barker.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 20 Jan 1984 10:13:03-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@su-shasta
Subject: reply to billw@sri-kl about John Brunner

John Brunner also wrote a series of short stories later collected as
The Traveler in Black that can best be characterized as fantasy.
The Traveler in Black is one of the elder gods and his function is
to bring forth order from chaos.  Brunner makes "him" and the other
elder gods believable beings one can empathize with.  The stories
are all ironic fables about some very strange beings.  Brunner makes
you understand how their nature and personality interact so you get
to know them.

The fantasy of SF writers always has this logical neatness to it.  I
guess it's because they don't just say "anything can happen" but
carefully set up a universe with different laws, which they proceed
to follow as carefully as they can, working out the consequences in
the same way.

                                - Suford

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 15 Jan 1984 17:50:21-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!druid!turner@Shasta
Subject: Reply v.9 7 & 8

In the "Children" anthology in the anniversary series of Analog 
anthologies, there is a story about a girl in communication with a 
telepathic race of native aliens possessing such power to blend in 
with their surroundings that human scientists think they are extinct.
Can't give you title, chapter, or verse, but the aliens are
unmistakeably feline.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jan 84 15:15 CST
From: Finch.dlos@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #15

I think the all time best science fiction series is the WELLWORLD
series by Jack L. Chalker. Another good one by the same author for
light entertainment is "AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER".  Any
book by Niven or Hogan is guaranteed good reading.

Jim Finch
Xerox, Dallas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jan 84 13:22:47 PST
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: Indiana Jones...

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this, but they've been
showing a longer trailer for ``Indiana Jones and the Temple of
Doom'' in LA for quite some time.

Most of the teaser is Indiana in what appears to be an underground
temple of some sort.  There is an evil Lord type and so on.  Mood
looks pretty good, with lots of adventure stunts and so on.

The scene that gets the biggest reaction from the crowd is one where
Indiana comes upon two large sword wielding Turks.  They whirl their
swords around in impressive fashion.  Indiana just smirks and
reaches for his pistol -- but his holster is empty!  Whoops...very
funny.
                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 1984 1832 PST
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VAX>
Subject: SF Movies...
Reply-to: RAOUL@JPL-VAX

I see most of the sf movies I liked already listed here except for
two :

"The Quaestor Tapes" - This was a made for TV pilot about an android
                       designed to "save" the human race by
                       influencing world events.  The android,
                       Quaestor, due to incomplete programming,
                       searches for the purpose of his existence and
                       eventually finds it.  The movie did not score
                       high enough ratings to earn a series though I
                       personally thought the actor who played
                       Quaestor made a very good android.  Too bad.

"Silent Running" - Basically a film to save the ecology.  The Earth
                       has been so urbanized that a place for the
                       natural fauna and flora no longer exists.
                       They are placed in dome structures connected
                       to orbiting space ships.  The effects were
                       good. The acting was so so but I liked it
                       overall.


Al Wong

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 15 Jan 1984 17:50:21-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!druid!turner@Shasta
Subject: Reply v.9 7 & 8

Wasn't "Day of the Triffids" fun?  Unalloyed corn, to be sure.  "2001"
remains undisputed master in my book: it doesn't matter what the
technology available, knowing what to do with it (=talent) makes the
real difference.  On re-viewing a few years ago, "Forbidden Planet"
seemed to have punk FX compared to my childhood memories, but a more
respectable thesis than I had remembered.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 1984 1615-PST
Subject: General Relativity
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

I agree that Wheeler and Taylor's "Spacetime Physics" is really
excellent and explains most of the paradoxes of Relativity.

HOWEVER, DO NOT EVER try to read Gravitation, by Misner, Thorne, and
Wheeler to aid in understanding things.  It is really bizarre and
very hard to make heads or tales of, even if you know General
Relativity!!  (It is, however, a great book to skim through, and
certain parts are interesting.  It is also a great book to impress
everyone with, being extremely massive.)

One of the best General Relativity books I've seen is the one by
Weinberg called something like "General Relativity."  It actually
develops much of the math you need, and covers Special Relativity,
Gravity Waves, and much of cosmology.  It too is a graduate school
level text, but General Relativity is really a graduate level
subject.

(Also, Adler, Bazin, Shiff (unsure of the exact names, but something
like that) is also very good, and is more elementary than Weinberg.)

                                Alan

------------------------------

From: Joe Buck <buck@NRL-CSS>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 84 23:17:01 EST
Subject: Density of a vacuum

At least two people have posted messages indicating their belief
that the concept of density of a vacuum is absurd. Since density is
mass over volume, a vacuum has a density of zero.

Actually the situation is more complex. Quantum field theory shows
that all vacuums have nonzero density, because particle pairs are
constantly being created and destroyed out of nothing.

Further discussions of vacuums should probably move to the physics
list.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Date: 18 Jan 84 16:13:25 EST
Subject: FTL

The beauty of special relativity and time dilation is
that it does NOT completely outlaw FTL travel.  It only outlaws FTL
with respect to an external reference frame.  If you abandon external
reference frames, you can travel as quickly as you like.  With the
exception of Anderson, few SF writers have picked up on this, and
none that I know of treat it as a normal, useful effect.  For example,
assume you have a total conversion drive which accelerates all
particles within a given volume equally--no stresses are placed
on the substance of the starship or the people inside.  With
total conversion of matter, accelerations of 2000 or 3000 G should
be easy enough to achieve.  This violates no physical laws that I know
of; obviously we don't know how to do it yet nor will we for some
time.

But that magnitude of acceleration would make a trip to the nearer
stars a matter of weeks or months rather than centuries.  So who
gives a damn if the universe ages a millenium in the process?  If
the idea is to get a boatload of colonists somewhere, timeslips
like that are trivial--the planet won't change noticeably in the
meantime.

If we can ever perfect a "thruster" as Niven called them, we will
travel as fast as we like--as long as we never look back.

Godspeed,

Jeff Duntemann
duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 18 Jan 1984 11:12:51-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!super!kenah (Andrew Kenah)
From: <decwrl!rhea!super!kenah@Shasta>
Subject: Parsecs

Since I haven't seen it stated categorically, I will:

A parsec is a measure of distance. It equals about 3.26 light years.
First of all, parsec is short for parallax-second.  It is the
distance at which an object would shift one second of arc in
relation to further "stationary" objects over the course of six
earth months. Parallax shifts were used to make the first accurate
measurements of the nearest stars.  Parallax is not easy to explain
without pictures, but if necessary, and if requested, I'll give it a
try.  My feeling about the "12 parsec" line in SW is: Lucas probably
thought the parsec was a short form of a time measurement, akin to
kiloton or megabuck. However, the "sec" doesn't refer to time; it
refers to angular measurement.

                                        Peace,
                                        Andrew Kenah

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #18
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jan 84 1252-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Jan 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
             Books - Bova & Brooks & Farmer & schmitz &
                     Book request (2 msgs) & Recommendations,
             Films - "A Boy and His Dog" (2 msgs) & Video Cassette Piracy,
             Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units & FTL &
                     General Relativity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Jan 84 20:51:30 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice>
Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review:  "Voyagers," by Ben Bova

I feel compelled to defend Bova.  While old Ben is pretty
heavy-handed about government, the military, and social decline (his
non-fiction THE HIGH ROAD is rife with such) a lot of his fiction is
worthwhile.  I liked MILLENNIUM, and its sequel, COLONY, is only
slightly less worthwhile, and its prequel, KINSMAN, is OK too.  Some
of his earlier work, like THE DUELING MACHINE, is quite interesting.
And who could fault THE STARCROSSED, a fictionalized sendup of
Harlan Ellison's encounter with Canadian TV?

I will gladly admit that VOYAGERS was poor, as was his juvenile
EXILES trilogy, but he usually writes worthwhile hard science
fiction.  And a lot of his non-fiction (such as THE NEW ASTRONOMIES,
and THE FOURTH STATE OF MATTER) is competent too.  Not Asimov,
but...

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 1984 09:34-PST
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #13
From: Craig E. Ward <Ward at USC-ISIF>
Cc: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree@UCB-VAX

    Date: 10 Jan 84 20:00:02-PST (Tue)
    From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: Re: Elfstones - (nf)

    The Sword of Shannara was obviously a narrative put to a D&D
    adventure.
    Is the sequel the same sort of thing?
    --Dick Wexelblat
    ------------------------------

Even Lord of the Rings can be viewed as a "narrative put to a D&D
adventure".  That in itself detracts from neither the quality of the
narrative nor of the story.

While I enjoyed Sword of Shannara I did not buy Elfstones of
Shannara when it first came out as a trade paperback.  I waited
another two years for it to come out as a mass market paperback.
After reading Elfstones I just may buy Terry Brooks' next work as a
trade paperback.  Elfstones is better than Sword, both in
characterization and story.

                Craig

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 84 20:20:00 EST
From: WASER@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: Philip Jose Farmer

  I may be displaying my ignorance, but I've never understood why
anyone would regard the Riverworld series as good enough to
recommend to anyone.  Granted that it has some good novel ideas, my
point is that it is a classic case of a good concept being totally
ruined.  I was suckered into reading the whole series by my belief
that it had to get better or have some sort of awesome ending.  No
such luck.  And not that the ending was that bad, it just had no
rational development or plausibility.  I'm the type of reader who
can feel that a book can be worthwhile if EITHER the ending was
worthwhile (in terms of being well-done and developed and
entertaining interesting concepts) OR I enjoyed reading it (due to
good writing style, interesting concepts, or whatever) though I do
tend to be somewhat disappointed if the ending doesn't match (best
example of this is The Weirdstone of Brisengamen (sp?)- great book
except for the way everything is wrapped up in the last few pages
[do read it and the sequel, though]).  Farmer, though, just had a
good opening hook and went nowhere with it (and his ideas are
ordinary and the literary style is nothing special).  I figured that
after the good opening hook that the ending was probably worth all
the wading through.  I was wrong.  I would like to see anyone
explain why it is a top caliber series.  My guess is that people
read it as it was coming out and got suckered along the same way I
did except that with the long time between reading the books tended
to remember the earlier ones in a better light in anticipation of
what they were leading up to (they seemed like they were leading up
to a really great ending & all we got was a fizzle [I was soooo
bummed]).  So how about it all ye who feel its worth recommending,
why don't you tell us why?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 84 16:18:13-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Reply v.9 7 & 8

   Sadly, I beleive that James H. Schmitz is dead.  I vaguely
remember reading his obituary in one of my back-issues of Analog,
some years ago.  I'm not sure, but I think that he died while
Campbell was still editor.  There'll never be any stories about the
Hub again, more's the pity.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 22 January 1984 00:47 EST
From: Adam G. Mellis <MELLIS @ MIT-MC>

A friend of mine is looking for a book she read a long time ago, but
she doesn't remember the title or author.  I am posting the
description that she gave me.  Any pointers to possible sources
would be appreciated.

Two young boys go scuba diving after a tidal wave/severe storm and
find an underwater cave with an emerald green crypt. The crypt
contains a lizard/man type creature who comes to life and befriends
the boys, eventually showing them his underground city, and driving
them in his craft which can penetrate rock by melting it.

She didn't remember the ending.

Thanks

Adam (Mellis@MIT-MC)

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Jan 84 04:39:00-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Lost short story

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Lost FTL Time Dilation Story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The 1st lead on the story was from someone who recalls reading it in
Analog.  Does anybody have a late-60's collection s/he could/would
browse?  Please?  I really crave that story.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1984 11:12:40 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Indirect Recommendations

      The problem of recommending books to people (or vice versa) is
not a simple one, especially when it's being done over the network.
It's hard to determine why someone likes a specific book, and
without that info you can't extrapolate as to whether or not s/he
would like another book that has certain (but not all) features in
common with the first book.
      There is a solution, of sorts, though.  Don't make direct
recommendations at all -- make indirect ones instead.  The best
source for indirect referrals in sf is Baird Searles & Martin Last,
"A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction".  S&L run NYC's Science
Fiction Shop, and S. writes reviews for one of the major magazines,
so you've got a pair of knowledgeable authors here.  What they do in
the book is to provide brief, non-spoiler summaries of books,
authors, and styles.  If the book you just read is part of a series,
the "Guide" will help you find the titles of the other members.
And, it often contains opinions of the "well, if you liked X, then
you ought to try Y and Z, because..." variety.
     Fantasy readers should note that there's a matching volume for
them, titled (what else) "A Reader's Guide to Fantasy" by Searles,
Last, and a few friends whose names won't come to mind.
     The other book that is incredibly useful in exploring sf and
fantasy, especially when you want detailed author biographies or
info on specific topics and themes within sf, is Peter Nichols'
"Science Fiction Encyclopedia".  It's a bit out of date, but that
doesn't make the info in it any less useful as far as it goes.  The
book has some excellent articles on specific themes (alternate
histories, women in sf, etc.), plus good info on authors and books.
(Locus Publications, by the way, is selling copies of the hardback
edition dirt-cheap -- check their ads in Locus for more details).

Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: Fri 20 Jan 84 01:31:23-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Film adaptation of "A Boy and His Dog"

I have to disagree strenuously with the favorable opinion recently
expressed about this movie.  I thought it didn't even approach the
impact of the story (well, yeah, sure, if you're looking for a
visceral reaction at the prospect of being fed to a dog...)

There were numerous changes made in the original story, all of them
to its detriment.  The most obvious one is the change from a
decaying city to a desert.  Cheaper, I guess, but the city was a
stronger image.

The most important (and worst) change was in the society
underground.  In the original, it was not viciously hypocritical,
condemning people to death with a smile and letting monstrous robots
pursue them; it was simply an attempt to restore Middle American,
middle class, small-town life.  The whole point of this in the story
is that such a life is utterly deadening and forces people into
hypocrisy (the matter of sex Underground is treated much more subtly
in the story than the film).  The film lost this point by having
villains run the town.  Ellison was saying that the town is like
this not because nasty people run it, but by its very nature -- and
thus condemning traditions held sacred by many.  It's a very 60s
type of story (I say this not to condemn, merely to describe).

Aside from that major flaw, the ending of the story is more
horrifying in its lack of description than the film, depending on
visual images, could ever be.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 84 14:52:02-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!fortune!norskog @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Film adaptation of "A Boy and His Dog"

The underground city in the movie is a commentary on Disneyland.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Jan 84 04:25:05-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: SW piracy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SW Bootlegging ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are there bootleg video-cassette copies of TESB and ROTJ available?
Of \course/ there are!  Even if every single projectionist in the
nation was of Lensman integrity--ha!--I saw newspaper reports of at
least 2 thefts of theatre prints.  (In comparison with what pirated
copies of SW-IV was going for in the latter months of 1977, I hear
they're fairly cheap, with ROTJ the cheaper.  Even blackmarket
customers have SOME aesthetic discrimination.)

But Lucasfilm is MIGHTY tetchy about the matter, and nobody in his
right mind will admit possession.  Especially not on SF-LOVERS!
(It's criminal, for one thing, which is ab-so-lute-ly verboten on
the net, and for another, \we/ all DO have Lensman integrity.)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 84 22:23:28-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A universal system of units

Why not have a universal system based on 42, since it is the
Ultimate Answer?  :-)

--greg
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds (UUCP)
Gds@XX (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 84 13:54:58-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!sbcs!bnl!stern @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FTL

>                                                 For example,
>assume you have a total conversion drive which accelerates all
>particles within a given volume equally--no stresses are placed on
>the substance of the starship or the people inside.  With total
>conversion of matter, accelerations of 2000 or 3000 G should be
>easy enough to achieve.  This violates no physical laws that I know
>of; obviously we don't know how to do it yet nor will we for some
>time.

  Actually, to do this would require communicating a change in
velocity instantly over a nonzero distance, which is prohibited by
special relativity.  This is the cause of the large-stick-in-the-
small-garage special relativity so-called paradox.

  The point is, that any FTL scheme would require that special
relativity be extended in a radical way, and we would probably need
a new way of looking at space-time in order to resolve all the
causality paradoxes that arise in special relativity from FTL
communications.

That is why this is science fiction right now.

                                Eric G. Stern

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jan 84 06:30 EST
From: Richard Pavelle <RP%SCRC-TENEX@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: General Relativity
Cc: KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA

    Date: 17 Jan 1984 1615-PST
    Subject: General Relativity
    From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

    I agree that Wheeler and Taylor's "Spacetime Physics" is really
    excellent and explains most of the paradoxes of Relativity.

    HOWEVER, DO NOT EVER try to read Gravitation, by Misner, Thorne,
    and Wheeler to aid in understanding things.  It is really
    bizarre and very hard to make heads or tales of, even if you
    know General Relativity!!  (It is, however, a great book to skim
    through, and certain parts are interesting.  It is also a great
    book to impress everyone with, being extremely massive.)

    One of the best General Relativity books I've seen is the one by
    Weinberg called something like "General Relativity."  It
    actually develops much of the math you need, and covers Special
    Relativity, Gravity Waves, and much of cosmology.  It too is a
    graduate school level text, but General Relativity is really a
    graduate level subject.

    (Also, Adler, Bazin, Shiff (unsure of the exact names, but
    something like that) is also very good, and is more elementary
    than Weinberg.)

The authors of Katz' reference are Adler, Bazin, and Shiffer. I
agree this is a good book. I believe that Weinberg's General
Relativity and Cosmology is the best of the modern texts. However,
if someone wants to understand the mathematics and get some insight
into the subject, the best book ever written is about 60 years old.
It is Eddington's Mathematical Theory of Relativity. Eddington was
one of the first (probably the second person after Einstein) to
really understand the subject and its implications.  His ability to
impart his knowledge was in a class of its own. One can learn a
great deal by studying this one book.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #19
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 84 1608-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:
                 Books - Berlitz & Bova & Chalker &
                         Herbert (2 msgs) & Russ & Young &
                         The Dernyi & Cats in SF & 
                         Book Request (2 msgs),
                 Films - Indiana Jones & Favorite SF Movies (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Parallax & STL Travel, Parsecs, Etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1984 09:58:28 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Miscellaneous comments

    The book entitled The Philadelphia Experiment was written by 
Charles Berlitz -- the same guy who brought the Bermuda Triangle to 
our attention, and then spent umpteen months on the talks show circuit
explaining the unexplainable phenomena to the masses.  (Hmmmm, maybe
Steve Jackson will add a Philadelphia Experiment card to the
Illuminati game...)

Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 23 Jan 1984 09:20:42-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun (Roger H. Goun)
From: <decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@su-shasta>
Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review:  VOYAGERS, by Ben Bova

Fortunately, I picked VOYAGERS up without high expectations, having
been told in advance how awful it was.  It was even worse than I
expected!  The idea that a government might not act responsibly when
faced with the possibility of contact with an alien intelligence
seems perfectly reasonable to me (how do you know it hasn't already
happened?).  Bova's execution of the idea, though, is so
heavy-handed as to be ludicrous.

First contact is one of my favorite SF themes.  Too bad Bova blew it
so badly.

Not all of his work is as bad as VOYAGERS, though.  KINSMAN, for
example, is a fine collection of short stories which revolve around
macho military spaceman Chet Kinsman at the start of the space age.

Bova's MILLENIUM is the sort of novel that can make you very late to
work the next morning if you pick it up in the evening.  It's a
gripping story of an attempt by the U.S. and Soviet crews of a moon
base (established during a period of relative detente) to prevent
the superpowers from waging a nuclear war.

COLONY, set later in the same universe, does a pretty good job of
describing how the politics of terror -- which we might have hoped
to leave behind when space colonies are established -- could still
intrude.

Don't give up on Bova just yet.

                                        -- Roger Goun

UUCP:   {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun
ARPA:   decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@SU-Shasta
USPS:   Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13
        77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749
Tel:    (617) 568-6311

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 17:30:06-EST
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Some responses

Chalker is a total hack author. I used to really enjoy him, but I then
made the mistake of rereading some of his books. Too formula, too
mechanized, too pat. Except maybe Midnight at the Well of Souls, which
I read twice and still enjoyed. The same, incidentally, is true of
Hogan, although from the recent discussions, that's probably 
sacreligous.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 22 Jan 1984 14:14:13-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!elmo!tillery@su-shasta
Subject: DUNE V - "HERETICS of DUNE"

        I just picked up the Feb. "84" edition of OMNI and was quite
suprised to find in the "Coming Attractions" section that there will
be an excerpt from DUNE V (Heritics of Dune) in the March "84"
edition of OMNI. The plot will center on "a girl that finds the
courage and power to control the great Shaitan, a giant sandworm
indigenous to her planet".

        This is the first I have heard of this Dune V, can anyone
add anything to it?

Thanx,
                                        RyKiT_

p.s. This may be old news to some but I have just begun receiving
SF-L again after being w/out it since Oct "82"! Bet I missed a lot!

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 84 0:13:57-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!za62 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Frank Herbert- The Dosadi Experiment, The Whipping Star

>  Date: Mon 16 Jan 84 09:21:23-EST
>  From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
>  Subject: Frank herbert Books

>  Those who liked Destination: Void might try The Dosadi
>Experiment.  It is not in any "sequence" with the other books, but
>addresses several of the same themes.

One thing I would like to add:

The Dosadi Experiment is the sequel to The Whipping Star, and it
would be advisable to read tWS before tDE because some of the themes
and activities in tWS are brought up in tDE.

Brian Keves
sdcsvax!sdccsu3!za62

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1984 09:58:28 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Miscellaneous comments

    The Joanna (not Johanna) Russ story in Dangerous Visions was "When
It Changed".  This story is also incorporated in her novel, The Female
Man.

Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 1984 17:06:02-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: story query

   The story is by Robert F. Young (almost all 1950's and 60's SF
that a cynic might classify as "slushy" is by Young); recollection
in the absence of my collection says the title was "One Love Have
I". I found it in ACROSS THE SEA OF SPACE, an anthology by William
Nolan; don't know whether this came out in hardback or you found it
elsewhere.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 1984  12:30 EST (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: The Deryni

        I heard a rumour recently that a new Deryni novel, "The
Bishop's Heir", will be coming out this spring.  Anyone heard
anything about it?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 09:16:17-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: invisible telepathic cats

The enquiry about the invisible telepathic felines everyone thought
extinct, and the girl who could communicate with them, sounds VERY
like the first of James Schmitz' "Telzey" stories - the girl in
question being Telzey Amberdon, the felines "crest cats", and the
story "Novice", in Analog some time in 1963.

The story is collected (with a couple of other Telzey stories) in a
pb with the dreadful title "The Universe Against Her".  There were
quite a lot of Telzey stories in Analog, as I recall; the best for
my money was "The Lion Game", also now in pb

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 84 0:38:02-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!messick @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Help me find a book.... - (nf)

I can't help you with "Tommorow's Children" but I can suggest a
place to look.  Mark Ziesing of Ziesing Bros. can probably find a
copy (or two) for you if anyone can.  Try writing or calling:

                Mark Ziesing
                PO Box 806
                Willimantic CT  06226

                (203) 423-5836 days
                (203) 423-3867 evenings

--steve
{hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!messick

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 17:30:06-EST
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Some responses

I read a story a long time ago that described a mental hospital where
everyone thought he was one of the doctors, either treating a patient,
or pretending to be a patient while actually treating the 'doctors'.
The story didn't state whether anyone was actually sane or insane. It
was probably in a short story collection, if that helps. Does anyone
know of what I speak [write]?

------------------------------

Subject: Indiana Jones & Movie Reviews
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 84 13:05:13 EST
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

I have been reading the messages about IJ&TD with interest, looking
for details of when it would be released, etc.  I find that I am now
going to have to stop reading such messages.  Apparantly, some
people have a hard time believing that others do NOT WANT TO KNOW
plot details, individual scenes, ESPECIALLY those which get the best
crowd reactions.  If I go to a movie and see the trailer with the
scene, fine.  At least I SAW it and had the pleasure of reacting.
But PLEASE don't talk about it on the list!  Usually, people use a
simple mechanism when they have got to get such things off their
chests:

***********************  SPOILER!  ********************************

Now, if you are reading this, then you are one of the people who
likes to know things ahead of time.  Not all of us are this way.
Please, a little more thought before typing next time.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 1984  11:16 EST (Tue)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: FAVE SF movies

     I agree with almost all of the nominations for great SF films
that have appeared so far, including such unlikely ones as Robinson
Crusoe on Mars (which I enjoyed a lot when I saw it as a kid),
except for ANY of the Planet of the Apes movies.  Come on now! Even
Roddy McDowal couldn't save those bombs!  I would also like to
specifically agree with the person who mentioned "A Boy and His
Dog".  I saw it for the first time within the last year, and really
liked it.
     Now for the addition of some new titles which are, in my opinion,
excellent movies which might not be considered main line SF.
     First, I can't rave enough about "The Illustrated Man" starring
Rod Steiger.  It was based on the book of the same name by Ray
Bradbury.  Besides the fact that Rod Steiger is one of the all time
great actors around, and that he puts in one of his best
performances in this one, the pacing and mood that the movie
projects are truly excellent.  A must see for anyone.
     Secondly, I must at least mention "Slaughterhouse Five".  This
movie rides the same very delicate balance between humor and
seriousness that is found in the original work by Kurt Vonnegut.
The mood etc., is also in very good agreement with the book.  One
caveat though, this is one of those movies that is really hard to
follow if you haven't read the book.  For example, when I saw it,
the guy beside me kept mumbling under his breath "Now how the hell
did he get THERE?  What is going on in this movie?"  I tried to
explain to him, as the movie had briefly mentioned, that the
protagonist was "unstuck in time" and that was why the movie seemed
to jump around a lot, but I don't think this explanation satisfied
him much.  Anyway, the fact that you have to have read the book
first isn't that damning.  After all how many of you will claim to
have understood 2001 without having read the book.  And I for one
certainly wouldn't want to hold ANYTHING against 2001.

Happy viewing,
Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 17:30:06-EST
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Some responses

The Lathe of Heaven (I believe the correct title is a pretty good 
movie).  Does anyone really consider any of the recent space operas to
be serious contenders for all time great SF movie? Bladerunner gets my
vote; I thought 2001 a bit pretentious, and most of the older movies
really don't hold up any more. Maybe Dune...? [Please, let it be
ok...]

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 23 Jan 1984 07:42:36-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!druid!turner@su-shasta
Subject: Interesting Sidelight on Parallax

The concept of parallax was well understood at the time Copernicus
released his circumsolar theory, with the interesting result that
empirical evidence could immediately be shown to disconfirm his
theory!  The stars were not then understood to be nearly as far away
as they in fact are, so the parallax shift expected was greater than
the actual -- and it was not observed.  (The actual shift was too
slight for instruments of the time to detect.)  In spite of this
fact, Copernicus' theory was quickly embraced by the bulk of the
scientific community: it SIMPLY made too much sense.  Ptolemy falls
on Occam's razor.

Examples of this trend in the history of physics abound in the work
of Milic Capek, who has a lovely book whose title I'll scrounge up
if anyone wants and can't find it for himself.  Does this belong in
the Physics list (wherever that is)?  Well, SF folk might cast an
eye over current science for possible cases of ill-measured data
mischievously disconfirming delicious hypotheses.

-- Jim Turner, DEC CPU/Systems Mfg @ ACO, CDN addr PARSEC::TURNER

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 1984  11:20 EST (Tue)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: STL travel, parsecs, etc.

     Although the discussions about vacuums, parsecs, etc. that have
appeared on this list of late have been somewhat redundant and
remedial, they still constitute more of a (and a better) discussion
of physics than has appeared in net.physics within the past two
months!  Keep up the good work!

Greg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #20
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Jan 84 1501-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Jan 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
             Books - Bova & Chalker & Schmitz & Wolfe &
                     Cats in SF & Wombats in SF,
             Films - Favorite Movies & A Boy and His Dog,
             Television - The Apple Macintosh Ad (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 84 8:53:28-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review:  "Voyagers," by Ben Bova

I forgot about THE STARCROSSED.  I loved that book, especially after
having read PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES and learning the background that
inspired it.  So that's three books by Bova that I've liked.  I
still haven't liked anything else, though...

Would anyone happen to know where one might find a copy of THE
STARCROSSED?  I'd like to add it to my shelf.

Thanks,

B.K. Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxs!okie

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 11:40:11 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Chalker is a total hack author
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc.Arpa>
Cc: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA

Well, I don't know about hackness, but the thing I find most
irritating is Chalker's attempts to 'scientific'.  My two favorite
(2) occasions are:
        > "steam combustion" (fuel crisis solved! most two year olds
          know water doesn't burn (except if it's in the Cuyahoga))
        > "liquid(!) magma" on the surface of a planet (as if magma
           is anything other than liquid (my geo profs used to beat
           me with hematite if I made this mistake); and once it's
           on the surface, it's lava)

It was especially amusing to find vulcanism on the Wellworld: isn't
the whole thing a giant computer with a thin veneer of planet?
Maybe that's how it gets rid of its waste heat...

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1984 10:33:15-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: James Schmitz

   certainly didn't die in Campbell's era; JWC died on July 11,
1971, while I remember seeing Schmitz's obit in LOCUS within the
last couple of years.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 84 1:25:17-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Some Gene Wolfe Trivia

Re Borges and Wolfe (Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill): Here is what
Wolfe has to say about Borges:

        Like the undines, Baldanders is a giant who is still
        growing.  I took his name from Jorge Luis Borges's THE BOOK
        OF IMAGINARY BEINGS.  It isn't one of Borges's best books,
        but that has never stopped me from stealing from it
        disgracefully.  (Anyway, second-rate Borges is still very
        good.) In his article on Baldanders, Borges credits the name
        to one Hans Sachs (1494-1576) of Nuremberg, then states,
        'Some ninety years after Sachs's death, Baldanders makes a
        new appearance in the last book of the picaresque-fantastic
        novel by Grimmelshausen, THE ADVENTURESOME SIMPLICISSIMUS
        (1699).'  Were Sachs and Grimmelshausen real?  Is there
        actually a such a book as THE ADVENTURESOME SIMPLICISSIMUS?
        I have no idea.  Borges is capable of making up much better
        books and authors than anyone can find in libraries; for
        examples, read 'The Approach to Al Mu'tasim' and 'Pierre
        Menard, Author of Don Quixote,' both of which are to be
        found in his FICCIONES.  (If you do not get a copy of that
        book, if you fail to read those stories, you will never be
        sure that I am not making up Borges, a literary effort
        worthy of the Nobel Prize.)  [From THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER,
        pp. 46-47]

Wolfe's final parenthetical remark is of course trying to imply that
Borges should get the Nobel Prize for inventing Pierre Menard...  I
have in fact heard of Grimmelshausen -- readers of John Le Carre may
recall that the book which poor George Smiley forgets at the club at
the start of TINKER, TAILOR, SOLDIER, SPY is an old edition of
Grimmelshausen.

Re THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN (Jeff Duntemann at Xerox, Wombat at UI):
The latest word I have on Wolfe comes from the January LOCUS.  The
article says that (a) Wolfe has finally quit his job as an editor of
PLANT ENGINEERING MAGAZINE and is going to be a full-time writer,
(b) he has spent the last year or so writing a new novel entitled
FREE LIVE FREE which has not yet been sold to a publisher, and (c)
'... I've got the fifth book of the New Sun in first draft, but I
haven't done anything on it for months.  I plan to pull it out
eventually and do the final draft.  Comparatively little of the book
takes place in the Urth of the Commonwealth.  A lot of it takes
place in space...  The temptation is... to get away from [writing
about Urth], because I know the place pretty well and it's time to
go and explore a new place.'

Isn't LOCUS wonderful?

On the home front, I gave my younger brother a full set of THE BOOK
OF THE NEW SUN in paperback for Christmas, hoping he might like it
but without much optimism, and to my surprise when I stayed at his
apartment in DC during the Uniforum conference last week, I found
that he was well into THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR and apparently
enjoying it.  When I left he was working on SotL on the couch while
his friend was attempting THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER on a chair.
Will wonders never cease?

Reviews for THE MAN IN THE TREE by Damon Knight, COURTSHIP RITE by
Donald Kingsbury, SOMERSET DREAMS by Kate Wilhelm, FEVRE DREAM by
George Railroad Martin, RIDDLEY WALKER by Russell Hoban, NO ENEMY BUT
TIME by Michael Bishop, and others in a later posting.

Donn Seeley   UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF   ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016  sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@noscvax

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jan 84 18:13:06 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!GSILBERBE@Berkeley
Subject: Another Cat Story

        "Schrodinger's Cat" by Ursula LeGuin.  It's in her
collection THE COMPASS ROSE.

                                        --Glenn Silberberg

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 18 Jan 84 17:19:01 PST
From: tekig!philj.tektronix@Rand-Relay
Subject: Re: wombats in SF

Well, I know of one SF book with wombats in it.  The book is

        'Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats'.

It is about strange occurences at AussieCon (Australia).  You see,
Aliens only show up on Earth when there is an SF convention there,
so they can blend in with the (costumed) crowd . . .

Many Fans who show up at a Con are psychic too.  That's why they
like SF -- they can identify with the main characters in the books.

I wish I could remember the name of the author, because seems like
it is a sequel to another book.  I want to read *that* book too.

Does anyone know the author?  This is GREAT SF (well, SF anyway).

Wombats are my favorite animals, too.

Phil Jansen
Portland, Oregon

ps      WesCon in Portland, Oregon
        4/July/84 !

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jan 84 04:07 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Favourite SF Movies

Why has nobody yet mentioned Dark Star - there are so many jokey
references in this one, from the title to the final "silver surfer"
spoof. The special effects are just fine (even if they were made on
a shoestring) - can't say enough good things about it...
          Deryk Barker.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1984 11:12:13-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: A BOY AND HIS DOG

   Harlan Ellison (according to remarks at the [sneak preview] at
Discon II (August 1974) and subsequent writings) wrote "A Boy and
His Dog" as a largely allegorical scream of rage subsequent to,
among other events, Kent State.  Janice's reading of the
middle-class town as inherently evil doesn't fit the story, in which
the town is far more pathetic than evil.
   The directors of A BOY AND HIS DOG were faced with two choices,
given the precise pictures of film: treating the whole thing as a
mushy allegory (possibly along the lines of a recent French fairy
tale, starring Catherine DeNeuve, in which the fairy godmother
arrives by helicopter), or trying to make realistic sense out of the
story without throwing out the plot line. (I recall that Ellison was
supposed to do the script but clutched shortly after starting,
leaving it to other people in the project.) The underground city run
by velvet-gloved tyrants is far more plausible---if the
middle-American middle class is as witless as described by Ellison
they'd have a hard time making a going concern of an underground
city.
   Granted, the original story had more emphasis on violence and
less on sex; the section in the [movie house], where a XXX film is
just a prelude to the adventure feature, is amusing. But Ellison was
less unhappy about the film \when it came out/ (emphasis important,
as he's always trying to abandon his past) than about any other film
or TV project I've read/heard him talk about.  The one thing he
really didn't like were some of the dog's lines; the dog was modeled
on a pet of his (see "Deathbird") and was [supposed] to be a
complete gentleman, without the MCPish traits he shows in the film.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 1984 11:33:09-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!tonto!collins (Robert J. Collins)
From: <decwrl!rhea!tonto!collins@su-shasta>
Subject: Guess who directed the Apple Macintosh ad...

(Excerpted from The Boston Globe, 24 Jan 1984)

              APPLE SENDS A MESSAGE TO ITS BIG BROTHER

                        by Ronald Rosenberg

       Among the many, many commercials crowding Sunday's Superbowl
     television broadcast, Apple Computer's futuristic shocker
     introducing Macintosh clearly scored highest in terms of
     impact.

       Paying homage to George Orwell's "1984", the 60-second spot
     views like a trailer for a big budget science fiction movie.
     That is, until a voice says

       "On January 24, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh and
     you'll see why 1984 won't be like '1984'".

       The ad cost $400,000 to produce and is part of a $15 million
     Apple advertising campaign for Macintosh.

       Reaction to the ad has been positive, said David Prince,
     broadcast business manager at Chiat/Day, the Los Angeles
     advertising agency that created the ad.  He said Apple spent
     $880,000 to show it during the third quarter of the football
     game alone.

       "I got a list two pages long of calls about the ad," said
     Prince.  "Even film director Steven Spielberg got his secretary
     to call and find out about it."

       The Apple ad was produced in London and the bald-headed
     people are a cult group known as "The Skinheads." The director
     was Ridley Scott, who also directed such feature films as
     "Alien," and "Blade Runner."

       When the ad was first shown to Apple's board of directors
     they wanted to throw it out, claiming it wasn't appropriate.
     But Steven Jobs, company chairman and co-founder argued for it.

Bob Collins     <decwrl!rhea!tonto!collins@SU-Shasta>

------------------------------

Date: 24 January 1984 23:17 EST
From: John G. Aspinall <JGA @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Macintosh commercial

Would anyone else like to comment on the Apple Macintosh commercial
shown during the third quarter of the Super Bowl?  I thought it was
a gripping visceral 60 seconds of SF, and extremely effective.  The
Boston Globe reports (not surprisingly) that it was directed by
Ridley Scott (Alien, Blade Runner).

In case you missed it, it showed a large auditorium filled with
zombie-like people with shaved heads, dressed in grey.  They are
staring at a "Big Brother" figure displayed on a screen who is
lecturing them along the lines of "we control the information...".
Into the hall runs a blonde woman, dressed in bright red, with
police-types chasing her.  Before the police get to her, she whirls
a sledgehammer around her head and hurls it through the screen.  The
screen explodes in a blast of light.  Then the voice-over explains
that Macintosh is coming etc., and 1984 won't be like '1984'.

At first I thought the commercial was an ad for a new SF movie.  But
the one scene went on for too long - movie ads tend to cut among
many scenes.  My next thought was the Olympics - athletes preserving
our freedom etc.  But that didn't fit either - Big Brother was wired
on a different track.  Once the Apple name appeared, it all clicked
- if the young woman is Apple, what other computer manufacturer is
Big Brother?  The deduction - IBM - was almost instantaneous.

Did anyone else have this immediate reaction?  Did Apple tap a lot
of subliminal feelings or is this only the reaction of the computer
sophisticates?  Has SF produced an archetype?

John Aspinall.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 11:08:53 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: A universal system of units
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc.Arpa>
Cc: Gds@XX.Arpa

        "Why not have a universal system based on 42, since it is
        the Ultimate Answer?  :-)"


Or better yet, 47.  Since 47 is the most common number in the
universe (or so I am told), it would be much more obvious a constant
to those who don't know the Answer yet.

                                Chris

PS Is anyone else out there in SFLoversLand acquainted with the 47
theorem?  I used to have the proof for above fact, but cannot find
it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #21
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 84 1426-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 27 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
                     Art - Fantasy Art Thanks,
                     Books - Berlitz & J. F. Bone &
                           Philip E. High Bio/Bibliography & 
                           Book Request Responses (3 msgs),
                     Films - Dune & Favorite Movies (2 msgs),
                     Miscellaneous - Total Conversion Spacedrives & 
                           The Answer 42

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 84 16:28:19-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!oliveb!gnome @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Fantasy Art thanks

Because of a bad mail-gremlin problem, I doubt that any of my
thank-you notes got out of Olivetti through the mail.  So, for all
of you who sent me Centaur artist references -- Thanks !!

        Daf for Darlene
        Tag for Denis
        Trb for Mark (wants you to call him)
        Chuqui for Ken Macklin
        Toms for Barry
        Anita for Real Musgrave
        Faunt for Off Centaur Pub.
and     Richa for Richa

I've contacted all of the artists (except Real) and am waiting for
samples of their work.

I'm always searching for new artists and (relatively serious)
centaur art collectors, so keep that data coming.

Questions and answers always welcome.

                        Thanks again,

                        Gary Traveis
                        at Olivetti ATC

..oliveb!gnome
..hplabs!oliveb!gnome
..ios!oliveb!gnome
..allegra!oliveb!gnome

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1984 0900-PST
Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

I've been reading The Philadelphia Experiment over the past few
days, and my general impression has been disappointment.  This is
mainly due to unfulfilled expectations.  I first saw a reference to
it with a one-sentence blurb in the book catalog of one of the
mail-order discount book sources, like Publisher's Central Bureau or
Barnes&Noble.  The description implied that it was an account of a
military experiment during WWII in trying to make a ship invisible
-- the ultimate camouflage.  So I found the book at the local
library and put it on reserve, since it was out.  When it showed up,
and I started reading, I found that it was only peripherally about
the experiment itself.  I'm about two-thirds through it, and so far
it has dwelt on the lives of the authors and the character of the
"mysterious witness" whose strange letters (written in multi-colored
ink with odd capitalization) seemed to have prompted earlier
articles and discussions on the subject (mostly in the UFO press).
It is just barely interesting enough to continue, in the hope that
it gets better (same as a recent correspondent characterized the
Riverworld series).

I am now in a chapter in which a scientist named only by pseudonym,
and who lives as a secretive hermit in the wilds of Pennsylvania, is
revealing essentially boring details of the discussions and meetings
amongst the scientific advisory staff to the various naval research
organizations during WWII.  It all seems enmeshed in an aura of
revealed secrets and supernormal forces, which the bits of fact that
float to the surface do not seem to justify.

I can only wonder what a movie based on this book would be -- since
the book spends far more time on the search for the information and
on the eccentric behavior of the parties invloved than on the
much-more-interesting (to me, at least) details of the actual
experiment (if it really happened), would the movie be just another
search-behind-the-evil-government-coverup story or would they
dramatize the experiment itself?  The latter could be worthwhile,
but the former is old hat and tedious.

In case you care, the "experiment" was supposed to be an effort
using some implementation of Einstein's Unified Field Theory and
strong electromagnetic fields to render a ship invisible by
deflecting light around it.  The result was said to be effective,
with the minor side effects of teleporting the ship from
Philadelphia to Norfolk and back (instantaneously) and driving the
crew mad.  Hmmm...  A few bugs, I guess...  So, of course, there was
the usual massive hush-hush coverup job and the Navy will never
admit that it ever happened, etc., etc., as you have no doubt seen
in many writings devoted to the conspiracy theory of history.

The name of Einstein has been invoked repeatedly so far in the book
as though mentioning it will make any nonsense reputable.  Maybe
more facts and less mysticism will surface in the later chapters,
but I hold little hope.  If you like reading the UFOlogists, you
might like this; if you don't, you won't.

Will Martin

PS soMe tHINGS Were not meanT For MAN to KNOw...

(underline that line in three colors of ink, and you get the
general impression of this book...  WM)

------------------------------

Date: 26 January 1984 1438-est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Request

Would appreciate pointers (send to my "home" address, I'll be happy
to consolidate replies) to any books, stories, essays, etc by J.F.
Bone.  I met him in college several (!!) years back.  He is an
Oregonian (like me!), he was a professor of Vet Medicine (Science?)
full-time then and a writer part time.  He had planned to retire
(that would have been 5-6 years ago), sail, and write.  I haven't
read anything by him since about 1975 or 1976.  He wrote "Lani
People" (a novel, his first?) and a short story in Geoff Conklins
"13 Above the Night".  I had heard that (about 1977) that he had two
works forthcoming, but never found them in print.

If possible, would like to know how he was doing...he always
threatened to sail to Hawaii to visit when I was there....  Thanks
in advance.
               Roz   (rtaylor at radc-multics)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1984 10:14:10 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Philip E. High Bio/Bibliography

    From that ever-useful reference source, Peter Nicholls' Science
Fiction Encyclopedia, comes the following info on Philip E(mpson)
High:

(1914--) English writer, variously employed for a number of years
before beginning to publish sf in 1955 with "The Statics" for
>Authentic Science Fiction<, contributing to several English
magazines, especially Nebula, before releasing his first sf novel
>>The Prodigal Sun<< (1964), which set the model for most of those
to follow.  It characteristically superimposes over a somewhat
pessimistic rendering of future Earth societies an epic plot, in
this case dealing with the return of an Earthman to his native
planet, but with his powers enhanced through his being raised by an
alien race.  Other novels combining social comment and adventure
include >>No Truce With Terra<< (1964), >> The Mad Metropolis<<
(1966), and >>These Savage Futurians<< (1967).  >>The Time
Mercenaries<< (1968) interestingly places a 20th century submarine
into a time when mankind has lost its genetic capacity to fight; the
resurrected crew (who had been artificially preserved) dutifully
save mankind from the aliens.  Though constrained by his Dystopian
sense of the possibilities of Man's future, PEH has been capable of
writing enjoyable adventures, though without fully stretching his
dark imagination.  [entry by John Clute] Other Works: <<Reality
Forbidden>> (1967), <<Twin Planets>> (1967); <<Invader on my Back>>
(1968); <<Double Illusion>> (1970); <<Butterfly Planet>> (1971);
<<Come Hunt an Earthman>> (1973); <<Sold--For a Spaceship>> (1973);
<<Speaking of Dinosaurs>> (1974).

Hope this proves useful to all the High fans out there....
Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1984  23:57 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Some responses

The title you are looking for is "Leading Man", by Lloyd Biggle, Jr.
You can find it in The Metallic Muse (Doubleday, 1972). In one
respect, you are wrong in your recollection, it is made very clear
the patients are really the doctors.
                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 84 8:31:49-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Help me find a book....

Hey, I've been looking for that book also!  I didn't remember that
it was editied by Isaac Asimov also.  Please let me know where I can
get a copy of this book also.

B.K. Cobb
AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihuxs!okie

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1984 10:03-EST
From: Joseph.Ginder@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #18

The book described in sfl v9.18 about the young boys scuba diving
and the lizard creature is called "Stranger from the Depths" (or
something close to that).  It is by Gerry Turner; I remember reading
it in a Scholastic Book Club edition many years ago.  Excellent
juvenile SF; but as I remember, OK for adults also.  I'm sure I
still have this book somewhere.

The vehicle which penetrates rock by melting it was called a "mole".
I remember that the lizard creatures in the underground cities all
had names with double vowels or some other characteristic spelling
depending on which city they were from.

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following for providing the
same information:

Adam G. Mellis      (Mellis@mit-mc)
Walt Pesch          (ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch@ucb-vax)
Dave Butenhof       (decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof@su-shasta)
]

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984 21:25:45-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!prancr!saunders@su-shasta
Subject: What I read about "Dune" (and wish I hadn't)

    I read an article about "Dune" in last week's Colorado Springs
Sun that gave me a real sinking feeling.  It was an interview with
Francesca (sp?) Annis, who is supposedly playing Jessica.  The
sinking feeling started when she began talking about having to shave
her head and eyebrows to play a Reverend Mother (!!!) on Caladan
(!!!!!!!!!).  Nothing the article said later got rid of that
feeling.

    I believe the article was syndicated, so someone else may have
seen it.  In any case, can anyone out there get rid of this
terrible, sinking feeling I've got?

    Can Frank Herbert (who is supposedly working closely on this
film), have permitted such a large (to say the least) change from
his novel? I don't seem to remember any bald people in the book...


        John Saunders,
        Software Technology Resources, Inc.
        Waltham, Massachusetts
currently on Digital's ENET as PRANCR::SAUNDERS

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 1:25:27-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!zehntel!root @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Great Movies - (nf)

"Being disintegrated makes me ve-ry an-gry!" <huff, huff>

Berry Kercheval         Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!mars!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 05:50:58-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!asylum!simon@su-shasta
Subject: Dark Star - A favorite movie?

     In volume 9, issue 20 (1/26/84), Deryk Barker mentioned the
movie Dark Star as being a favorite movie.  I did not think it was a
great movie, but I enjoyed it and am glad to see it get a mention
here.  The effects were very good and the story very creative.  I
must admit to not being a SF junkie, but rather someone who enjoys
some good SF every now and then and when I saw this movie, I just
didn't know what to make of it.  I would not rate it fantastic, but
worth seeing when it makes the rounds again.

Denise Simon, Hudson, Ma

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984 19:05:49-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!eludom!faiman (Neil Faiman ZKO2-3/N30 381-2017)
From: <decwrl!rhea!eludom!faiman@su-shasta>
Subject: Total Conversion Spacedrives

There is a common assumption in science fiction that a total
conversion drive is all you need to achieve virtually unlimited
velocities.  For example, in E. E. Smith's "The Skylark of Space"
(one of the GREAT early space operas), the heroes jaunt all over the
galaxy at multi-light speeds on the energy released by the
conversion to energy of about 100 lbs of copper.

It doesn't take special relativity to kill this pleasant idea.  High
school physics is good enough.

        (1)  The energy required to accelerate a body of mass m to
             velocity v is m(v**2)/2.
        (2)  The energy released by the total conversion of a body
             of mass m is m(c**2).
        (3)  Letting v=c, we see that accelerating a body of mass m
             to the speed of light, \disregarding relativistic
             effects/, would require the total conversion of a mass
             m/2.

Of course, really useful stardrives give you 100c or 1000c -- total
conversion is utterly useless.  (The best solution appears to be
perfect storage batteries to power the starships, and power stations
at either end (converting asteroids, maybe) to charge the
batteries.)

- Neil Faiman

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 07:22:29-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@su-shasta
Subject: The Answer 42

I have always felt that 42 is not the answer, 42 is the error code!

The only reason it took so long to reach this "answer" is that the
real answer to "life, the universe and everything" IS life, the
universe and everything.  It just took the computer a long time to
verify that there isn't any more to it than that.

As a comic doing a philosopher impression once said: "You may wonder
why I have chosen to speak about the Universe... There isn't
anything else."

As to whether 42 is any better that 47, somewhere I have a "proof"
that 17 is the largest number... How about 17?

                                     - Suford
                                      decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #22
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 84 0132-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 29 Jan 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:
                  Books - Berlitz & Wombats in SF,
                  Films - Star Wars & 2010 (2 msgs) & Favorite Movies,
                  Television - The Lathe of Heaven & 
                          The Apple TV Commercial (3 msgs) &
                          "Doctor" Who,
                  Miscellaneous - D&D vs. Lord of the Rings &
                          The Ultimate Authority on the Ultimate Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 17:16:40-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!asylum!simon@su-shasta
Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment

I too, was greatly disappointed in "The Philadelphia Experiment".
Being an Einstein Fan, I wanted to know how the experiment was
performed and what the results were.  Instead, all I got was a
boring account of how the sketchy details were obtained and brief
mentions of a few of the side effects of the experiment.  This could
have all been summed up in a few paragraphs and I could have read
something worth reading instead of this book.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 1984 1501-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Wombat SF

I did check the authors for "Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats"
They are Coulson and DeWeese.  MITSFS has a copy, but I have a
feeling most others are out of luck.  There are a couple of other
books by Coulson and DeWeese about fans saving the world. "Now You
See It/Him/..." comes to mind.  Gee, another sub-class of SF: fans
saving the world SF.  Any other suggestions?
                        wang

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 84 16:21:38-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SW apostasy

Perhaps the similarities that are described are DELIBERATE.

This might sound strange to some, but there is a device used in
writing and in film whereby foreshadowing is used to unify different
parts of a story.  This might just be what Lucas was doing, or maybe
the ROTJ director was just playing around with the concept.

Whether or not this comes off well, or is done "right" in any given
instance, is an aesthetic question.  I am not expert enough in the
theory of aesthetics to say whether the ROTJ repetition of themes
and visual images is a "good" idea, but it didn't really detract
that much from my own enjoyment.  Possibly because I hadn't burned
out on the original movies first?

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 84 17:00:57 PST
From: Douglas J. Trainor <trainor@UCLA-CS>
Cc: Chandra@U-Illinois
Subject: 2010



MGM/UA's production of the film has started, but can you wait until
the December release?!?

Peter "Outland" Hyames is the producer/director, Richard Edlund is
the visual effects supervisor, and Syd Mead is the visual futurist.
The sets have been built and the live-action shooting starts next
month.  I am with the computer graphics group producing great
quantities of video resolution graphics.

        Douglas J. Trainor
        Video Image Associates
        Marina Del Rey, California

        trainor@ucla-cs
        ...decvax!ucbvax!ucla-vax!ucla-cs!trainor

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 17:27:35-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!yoda!horovitz@su-shasta
Subject: 2010

     Earlier this week I was reading the Boston Herald, and noticed
a small article about 2010 the sequel to 2001.  They anounced that
the lead role was cast to Roy Scheider(sp) of Blue Thunder fame.
The character he will play is probably is Heywood Floyd.  Anyone who
has heard different, it sure would help for you to speak up.

n.l.h.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 8:56:45-PST (Thu)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FAVE SF movies

I have to disagree with the disagreement on the Planet of the Apes
movies.  Of the five (or so?) movies, the first one was quite good,
the next one was average, and the others were there. The series
(remember that?) made Lost in Space look like Emmy material (in
fact, it made Star Trek look like Emmy material).

Also, I have to admit that I understood 2001:A Space Odyssey before
I read the book. In fact, I saw the movie a half dozen times before
reading the book, and I understood it each time! Unfortunately, I
got a different understanding each time I saw it... :->

>From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq (a Silly Old Bear)
                                {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui
                                have you hugged your Pooh today?

The difficult we gave up on yesterday, the impossible we are giving
up on now.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 84 19:59:36-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven

        It's actually pretty good in its PBS incarnation.  The
gradual disintegration of reality as George Orr's shrink tries to
improve the world is well done, and the Zen aliens are choice.

        I have no idea who produced/directed it, or who the actors
were, but its worth watching at least once.

"Go ahead...make my day."
Darth Wombat
{allegra, decvax, ihnp4, harpo, seismo, teklabs, ucbvax}!pur-ee!rsk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 1984 13:30:50-EST
From: Scott.Safier at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: MacIntosh's Big Brother

I too saw the commercial on Sunday.  As several others have
commented, I first thought it was an ad for an SF movie; then an ad
for the olympics (I first thought the women was carrying the Olympic
torch); then it struck me that it was for Mac.  IBM has to be the
big brother; afterall, IBM sucked away most of their PC business and
is their main competitor.

Scott Safier

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 10:23:54-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hound!rfg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Macintosh commercial

Well, yes it's a brilliant commercial that is probably clear to
anyone interested in purchasing either brand. And, yes they may have
created an instant archtype. But look at the brilliant archtype they
are up against - good old Charlie Chaplin, the antithesis of the
machine age man. I always wondered why smart old IBL** chose such a
clod-type character (other than to sell computers, I mean). Now I
can see that through superior industrial espionage they could see
the Apple commercial coming and got there first with the counter: If
you are too inept to package a cake or a hat, an IBM-pc will make
you rich overnight.

-Dick Grantges hound!rfg
 ** This freudian slip was just too good for me to correct.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 8:58:51-PST (Thu)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Macintosh commercial

I think that Apple's belief as to who 'Big Brother' really is can be
deduced from where the ad was shown. With the exception of the
single nationwide ad (on the Superbowl show) that ad showed
regionally in the 14 largest markets in the country and Boca Raton,
Florida (home of the PC group of IBM). Gives you (and them) something
to think about....

chuq
>From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq (a Silly Old Bear)
                                {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui
                                have you hugged your Pooh today?

The difficult we gave up on yesterday, the impossible we are giving
up on now.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 27 Jan 84 15:12:15-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC>
Subject: "Doctor" Who

As one who just recently began watching the good Doctor, I have a
question for you long-time fans.

What field is the Doctor's degree in, and what institution (or
person, or whatever) awarded it to him?

-- Steve Dennett
   SRI

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1984 10:24:03 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: D&D vs. Lord of the Rings: An Historical Approach

     A recent comment on the discussion about the Shannara books
read, in essence, that even "Lord of the Rings" could be considered
a D&D adventure in novel form.  Sorry, but this is historically
impossible, because of the way D&D was actually brought into
existence.  I don't have the precise dates at hand, but the basic
story is this:
     One of the fairly active wargame fan groups back in the 50's
and 60's, with a number of members who were also sf fans, was the
one based in and around Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, then primarily known
as a summer resort town for wealthy Chicagoans and the home of the
first Playboy club.  Like many wargamers of that period, this group
was very interested in developing systems for running mock battles
using scale miniature figures.  One of the results of this interest
was the development of a system called "Chainmail", which was pub-
lished by the members of this group, calling themselves 'Tactical
Studies Rules, Inc.'.  The Chainmail system had, as an afterthought,
an appendix which suggested some ways in which the characters from
Tolkien's novels might be brought into this style of wargaming -- a
few simple rules for movement and battle, and a few basic
incorporations of magic into the (primarily medieval) wargaming
system.
     It was out of the Chainmail system that Gary Gygax and Dave
Arneson, two members of this group, developed the game that became
the original version of Dungeons and Dragons.  Like Chainmail, its
rules were distributed by Tactical Studies Rules, which later
renamed itself TSR; another similarity was that the rules were
published in 5x8 paperback booklets.  Later on, assorted things
happened which led to a split between Gygax and Arneson.  This
split, in turn, brought on a major lawsuit and the development of
the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system.  The AD&D rules were
specifically developed by Gygax to be sufficiently different from
the D&D rules that there could be no legal claim by Arneson to their
content.  (A friend of mine who's Gary's executive assistant tells
me that, in fact, Gygax doesn't actually use either system, but a
cross between them.)  The lawsuit's results didn't totally please
either party, but was (from what I've heard) a fairly equitable
settlement.
     Anyway, the early forms of D&D were quite intentionally trying
to incorporate Tolkien's concepts, so the similarities twixt books
and game are for real.  However, the sequence is the reverse of that
suggested in an earlier sf-lovers comment.  (By the way, the Tolkien
estate raised a fuss with TSR about the use of the copyrighted word
"hobbit", which is why the game uses the term "Halfling" for
critters that are obviously pretty much the same.)

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 28 Jan 1984 10:38:41-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof (Dave Butenhof)
From: <decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof@su-shasta>
Subject: The Ultimate Authority on the Ultimate Answer

My, my, such controversy about 42 and the answer to "Life, the
Universe, and Everything".  You know, there's a very good reason why
Deep Thought and the others couldn't discover the ultimate answer.
In Douglas Adams' own words from The Restaurant At the End of the
Universe:

                    There is a theory which states  that  if
                    ever  anyone  discovers exactly what the
                    Universe is for and why it is  here,  it
                    will instantly disappear and be replaced
                    by  something  even  more  bizarre   and
                    inexplicable.

                    There  is  another theory  which  states
                    that this has already happened.

So, maybe they DID find the answer.  That would explain why we're in
such a mess now ...

                Dave Butenhof
                Digital Equipment Corp.
                110 Spitbrook Rd.
                Nashua NH

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-Jan  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #23
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jan 84 1518-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 Jan 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:
            Books - Bradley & Farmer & Kurtz & Monaco &
                    Spinrad & Women in SF,
            Films - Dune & Movie Request,
            Television - Apple Commercial & Dr. Who (2 msgs)
            Miscellaneous - 42 vs 47 (4 msgs) & Boskone

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jan 84 12:15 CST
From: Csl Guest <guest%ti-csl@CSNet-Relay>
Subject: DARKOVER CHRONOLOGY

This list was compiled for me by a friend who took a published
chronology (by Bradley) and added the newer books in the order that
he perceived them from reading them. I can not attest any further to
their accuracy or completeness.

The chronology of the Darkover books is:
Darkover Landfall
Stormqueen!
Hawkmistress!
Two To Conquer
The Spell Sword
The Shattered Chain
Thendara House
The Forbidden Tower
Star Of Danger
The Bloody Sun
Winds Of Darkover
Heritage Of Hastur
Sword Of Aldones / Sharra's Exile         (alternate versions of
                                           return of Lew Alton
The Planet Savers
The World Wreckers

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 1984  12:28 EST (Mon)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Philip Jose Farmer

    I too have long wondered why anyone thinks that the riverworld
series is worth reading.  My feelings about it match the last
comment very closely (MUCH too long, with a VERY disappointing
ending).  I haven't really read much else by Farmer except for
"Venus of the Halfshell" which he wrote under the name of "Kilgore
Trout".  For those not familiar with VotHS, it is a spoof supposedly
written by a fictitious SF author character of Kurt Vonnegut's
(Kilgore Trout) but, as I mentioned, actually written by PJF.  I
found VotHS quite funny, if vulgar, and all around enjoyable.
    Since no-one else has answered the original query about the
Riverworld series, I can only hope that no-one out there actually
liked it enough to have bothered responding.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 84 00:12 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs@CSNet-Relay>
Subject: New Deryni Trilogy

     There is a new trilogy coming out from Katherine Kurtz, author
of the CHRONICLES OF THE DERYNI and LEGENDS OF CAMBER OF CULDI
trilogies.  As of yet, the new trilogy doesn't have a banner title,
but it is a sequel to the first trilogy, and takes up about two
years later, when Kelson is 16.  The three volumes are tentatively
entitled THE BISHOP'S HEIR, THE RETURN OF THE QUEEN, and THE QUEST
FOR SAINT CAMBER.  The first volume is supposed to be out sometime
this spring; I don't know if it will be a hardcover or an original
paperback.  Those interested in Kurtz's writing may want to pick
up LAMMAS NIGHT, a WWII/Occult novel (if you must categorize it)
that I think she handled very well.  (All this information was
obtained from the author at the Darkover convention this past
Thanksgiving weekend.)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 84 17:02:23 EST
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: RUNES by Richard Monaco

Has anyone read the book RUNES by Richard Monaco?  Looks like an
interesting book but didn't seem interesting enough to buy it
without finding something about it first.

thanks,
ds

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 08:09:11 PST
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: Spinrad

 I just read a terrible book by Norman Spinrad called ``The Void 
Captain's Tale.''  The surprising thing is that the cover has a good 
review by Gregory Benford on it.

  Basically what we have here is the tale of a starship captain who 
becomes involved with his pilot.  In this future, starships are guided
through the Void in hops of ~4.3 light years by placing a woman (the
Pilot) into an electronic circuit derived from some fortuitously
available alien circuitry and (electronically) stimulating her to an
orgasm.  Pilots have mystical experiences during the Jump, and it
takes a harsh physiological toll upon them.

  One of the things that bugged me about the book was the writing 
style.  It is told in the first person by the Captain, and so he uses
his ``future'' lingo.  Problem is that Spinrad blows this one big --
the lingo is neither believable nor particularly readable.  It doesn't
fade in after reading -- I stumbled through the whole book.

  Secondly, the secondary characters' reactions to the Captain are 
completely unbelievable.  Spinrad invents a culture that is completely
free on the face of it and completely hidebound underneath.  Not only
is that unlikely, it is unsupported and unbelievable.

  I could go on, but I think you get the idea.  A poorly written book.
Avoid this one.

                                        -- Scott R. Turner
                                           v.srt@ucla-locus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 15:06:10 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LSCHWEITZ@Berkeley
Subject: women in sf

In reading the latest few issues of F&SF, I noticed two examples of 
female-dominant cultures:

1) Book of The River by Ian Watson

     This one was serialized in 4 parts in the November-February
     issues.  It deals with a human culture spread along the banks
     of a large river.  The river is divided by a "black current"
     with strange properties.  Only women can sail on the river.
     Men are only allowed to pass upon it once.  Since the culture
     depends so highly on the use of the river, women are dominant
     in both governing and social mores (i.e. women sailors cruise
     the bars for one-night stands).  It's a good serial with nice
     characterizations and an interesting world.

2) Five Mercies by Mike Conner

     This is a novella in the latest (march) issue.  It takes place
     in a (mostly) human culture ruled by a hereditary matriarchy.

LSCHWEITZ

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jan 84 15:12:54 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: "Dune" movie

A recent issue of a free movie magazine handed out in certain LA
theater lobbies had an article on "Dune", in particular director
David Lynch's view of it.  It was a rather information poor article,
other than a list of all of the Mexican locations used and special
effects experts involved (almost everybody who doesn't work for
IL&M, except Douglas Trumbull).  It did contain the fascinating
tidbit (which I hadn't heard anywhere else) that David Lynch was
offered ROTJ, but refused it.  Pity, it would have been a much more
interesting movie that way.

The article concentrates on Lynch's insistence that everything used
in the film be unfamiliar to audiences.  This would explain the
earlier reported head shaving of Francesca Annis, who plays Lady
Jessica.  The author of the article seemed to have the idea that an
evil emperor was the moving force behind the story, which, of
course, isn't quite right.  (Jose Ferrer is playing the emperor.)  I
hope the reporter got it wrong, rather than Lynch.

The article also mentioned that Ridley Scott ("Blade Runner" and
"Alien") was initially set to direct, but was canned because he
insisted on concentrating on an incestuous relationship between Paul
and Jessica.  Just as well.

                                                Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 08:09:11 PST
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: A Movie

  I saw an SF film on TV once that I thought was okay.  The only scene
I remember is one in where the protagonists were standing in some kind
of huge underground cave with a line of bodies on slabs stretching off
into the distance.  One of the protagonists was some kind of guardian,
and the bodies were all of the past guardians, or something like that.
Strange how one evocative scene can make a movie (or score, for that
matter.  Would SW have won without such a damn good theme?).

  Anyone know the title?  I thought I'd throw it into the film 
discussion.

                                        -- Scott R. Turner
                                           v.srt@ucla-locus

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 08:09:11 PST
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: MacIntosh

  Some (trivia) questions about the Apple commercial or someone out 
there with a VCR and freeze frame:

        (1) What is on the girl's T-shirt?
        (2) What is written on the back wall of the large
        auditorium?

                                        -- Scott R. Turner
                                           v.srt@ucla-locus

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 29 Jan 1984 15:22:45-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!mother!hughes (Gary Hughes - CSSE/MicroVMS)
From: <decwrl!rhea!mother!hughes@Shasta>
Subject: Qualifications of a time lord

The name of the travelling time lord is simply "Doctor" or "The
Doctor".  This is how he is referred to by other time lords in
various stories, just as his arch-enemy is simply "The Master".

To the best of my memory the name "Doctor Who" has only ever been
spoken once in the TV series. In the very first episode (Unearthly
Child, 1963) when the people who were to become the Doctor's first
companions burst into the TARDIS they call him Dr. Foreman (the
Doctor's 'niece' Susan used that surname) to which he responds:
"Doctor? Doctor Who?"

Gary Hughes

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 1984  12:52 EST (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
To: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC>
Subject: "Doctor" Who

The Doctor holds his degree from the University on Gallifrey if I
recall correctly.  His field is all of them.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 15:06:21 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!SFLOVERS@Berkeley
Subject: 47 as universal constant

 While I cannot provide a *proof* that 47, rather than 42, is the
basis of reality, I can report that at the Claremont Colleges (CA)
the mystic properties of 47 have been understood for decades.
*Everything* here points to 47 as the prime universal constant.
Drop by and I'll demonstrate -- just take Exit 47 from the San
Bernardino Freeway and follow the signs.

                                  Craig Berry
                                  Harvey Mudd College

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 1984  18:55 EST (Sun)
From: "Warren J. Madden" <T.RABBIT@EE>
Subject: The Ultimate Authority on the Ultimate Answer

     The Ultimate Question can be found in many places.  For
example, a question from a Trivial Pursuit card:

     "How many eyes are there on a deck of cards?"

     If Scrabble can hold the question, why not a simple deck of
playing cards?

                                       Warren J. Madden

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jan 84 03:15 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Answer 42

The reason the asnwer is 42 is easily discovered in the I Ching,
hexagram 42 is Change" characterized (in the Wilhelm translation) as
the underlying structure and process of the Universe - need I say
more?
          deryk barker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 15:06:10 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LSCHWEITZ@Berkeley
Subject: 42 vs. 47

As for 42 vs. 47, the Claremont Colleges have had this debate for 
quite some time.  Harvey Mudd, the northernmost college, sides with 
Adams, whereas Pomona, the southernmost, believes in 47.  They cite as
documentation the (a) 47 steps to a certain staircase on their campus,
(b) a mysterious benchmark-like object with "47" on it and (c) the
fact that Indian Hill Boulevard (the exit to Claremont off I 10) is
exit 47.  My belief is that such trivia cannot compete with THE answer
but you 47ists have 5000 misguided underclassmen on your side.

LSCHWEITZ

------------------------------

Reply-to: G.CUNYVM=YBMCU@BERKELEY
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 84  16:32 EST
From: YBMCU@CUNYVM  (Ben Yalow)
Subject: Boskone

For those who may be interested, the person doing fan programming at
Boskone 21 is planning a panel on electronic vs "traditional"
fanzines.  He currently has a number of people who are currently
active on sfl, but might be interested in finding a few more.  He
isn't on the net, but can be reached either by phone or by messages
to me.

He is:  Moshe Feder
        (212) - 445-4614

I can be reached at
BITNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM
ARPA:   G.CUNYVM=YBMCU@BERKELEY
        (or maybe YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@BERKELEY)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #24
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Feb 84 1440-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:
            Books - Recommendations (2 msgs) & Reviews &
                    Fan Fiction,
            Television - The Questor Tapes & Prototype & 
                    Star Trek & The Apple Commercial (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 84 13:01:34-EDT (Sat)
From: jcc <jcc%nsf-cs@CSNet-Relay>
Subject: E.C. Tubb

By the way, why is nobody (at least of the SF-LOVERS crowd) seem to be
reading good old fashioned cut-em-up space opera such as that in 
Tubb's Dumerest series (volume 29 just out). I find that Tubb is by 
far my favorite author of that genre. Besides, he was, I believe, 
responsible for the pilot for that great TV show - Space 1999. More 
seriously, the universe that he created for the Dumerest series is 
fascinating consisting of good (the Church of the Universal 
Brotherhood), Evil (the Cyclan), and an ever changing cast of 
characters that lie in the middle. I got hooked on the series through
my collection efforts in completing my ACE doubles. The novels are
currently being published by DAW and reprinted, I believe, by ACE.

Dumerest is the hero of the series and is a man in search of his home
- lost Earth. He stowed away on a space freighter as a youth and got
lost in the multitude of human settlements in the center of the
galaxy. Humankind has forgotten that it originated on one world and
earth is only a legend now. Dumerest is being chased by the Cyclan, a
group of pure intellects bent on taking over the galaxy, because he
has the secret to a drug that will allow an intellect to dwell in the
body of another. And so forth ... As I said, I recommend the series.

John Cherniavsky jcc.nsf@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 30 January 1984 1532-est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Comments on Wolfe

Last fall when I went to visit my hubby in Korea, I was in the middle
of the "Sun-Series" by Wolfe.  My husband is not a reader of science
fiction, his tastes run towards Louis L'Amour westerns and non-fiction
war/political works/histories.  He picked up Vol 2 while I was working
on Vol 3, and liked it.  Although he found it confusing, since he has
no SF background, and is not fond of cats or computers.  (Outside of
my husband and son, they are my three favorite things!)  He has
decided to read the series from the beginning it has intrigued him so
much.  I have even gotten him to read Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat
series, so there may be hope for him yet!  Thus, if you have a friend
who likes Louis L'Amour westerns, maybe "they" would like Wolfe and
Harrison.

Nasty replies should probably be sent to my personal mailbox rather 
than here (your choice).
                              Roz
                    (rtaylor at radc-multics)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 1984 1721-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Cc: redford at SHORTY
Subject: reviews: Powers, Knight, Kingsbury, Gravel

Some brief reviews:

The Anubis Gates - Tim Powers
     Rip-snorting stuff. An ancient Egyptian magician attempts some
demon-raising in the 1800's in England.  A present-day American
captain of industry notices the historical effects of the rite and
exploits them to build a time machine.  Plus werewolves, a beggar
king with a palace in the sewers, body-switching, and Samuel Taylor
Coleridge.  It gets a bit gruesome at times, but is a real
page-turner.

The Man in the Tree - Damon Knight
     What is going on in this book?  Why did Knight come out of his
long period of silence to write it?  It's not that it's badly
written, or that the style is difficult; it's just that there
doesn't seem to be much point to it.  The book seems to be a Christ
allegory about this man, Gene Anderson.  He grows up in a small town
in Oregon, and discovers early that he has miraculous powers.  A
tragic but stupid accident forces him to flee home at the age of
nine with a revenge-seeking sheriff on his trail.  He grows up to be
a giant some eight and a half feet tall.  He becomes a sophisticate,
an art-lover and a millionaire.  How then can he be a messiah?  The
wealthy and successful people of the world don't become saviors. The
rich don't need saving.  A well-written but frustrating book.

Courtship Rite - Donald Kingsbury
   I must confess that I didn't finish this one.  About halfway
through I stopped suspending my disbelief, and that's fatal.  It's
set in a lost colony where almost none of the native life is edible.
The only nutrition to be had is in the few species brought from
Earth, and in human flesh.  Cannibalism is practiced at the least
excuse.  In general, these people seem to be into pain; they have
ritual scars covering their whole bodies (done without anesthetic),
and select mates with rites involving incredible amounts of torture.
I don't buy it.  There's nothing in someone else's flesh that you
couldn't get just by eating the same things they do.  Since the
people getting eaten will probably object, it's hard to see how this
custom could catch on. The practice of nearly killing a woman you
intend to marry also doesn't seem likely.  Kingsbury is obviously
trying to teach a lesson in cultural relativism.  He's trying to set
up a society where torture and cannibalism are commonplace in order
to prod us into thinking about our own values.  It backfires (for me
at least) because the society seems to be without internal logic.
And since it's a work of fiction, no one has to believe in it
anyhow.

The Alchemists - Geary Gravel
        This is the first time in print for a new author.  The
Empire will authorize the colonization of a planet if the natives
cannot be shown to be sentient.  The standards are tight, though,
and no race yet has qualified.  A team is sent to a newly discovered
planet to evaluate the extremely-human looking natives.  They are
not in fact human, but the leader of the team has a plan to stop the
steamroller of the Empire's expansion.  It's perhaps a bit
over-written, but a good first novel.

/jlr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1984 11:34:49 EST
From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications
From: Mgr.)
Subject: Fan Fiction

d SF.
Any other suggestions?"

    The proper name for this sort of thing is "roman a clef" (with
an accent grave over the solo 'a').  According to Harry Warner Jr.,
this is found in the sf field as far back as 1934, and shows up in
both fan and pro magazines [c.f., Warner, All Our Yesterdays: An
Informal History of Science Fiction Fandom in the Forties (Chicago:
Advent:Publishers, 1969), pp. 51-52.]  One classic example of this
form is "The Enchanted Duplicator", by fans Bob Shaw and Walt Willis
(published and re-published in numerous editions, available at any
good con...), in which Jophan makes his way through such trials as
the Hekto Swamp, the Forest of Stupidity, and the Desert of
Indifference on his journey from the village of Prosaic (in the
country of Mundane, where else?)  to the land of Trufandom, where he
reached the Enchanted Duplicator, clutches its handle, and
thenceforth becomes a True Fan.
    In an article entitled "Say, Didn't I See You at Last Year's
Worldcon" in the February 1976 issue of Dick Geis' Science Fiction
Review (vol 5, #1), author Richard Lupoff cites several other
examples of "fan fiction", such as the short stories "A Way of
Life", by Robert Bloch, and "Whatever Happened to Nick Neptune", by
Lupoff himself.  He also mentions several of the novels of Barry
Malzberg, which take place at cons and feature authors as their
protagonists (or perhaps I should say antagonists).
    One aspect of this style of writing is the process known as
"Tuckerization" (named after its inventor, author & fan Wilson
Tucker), in which real sf personalities are included in a story
under either their own names or a transparent disguise.  It was in
honor of this invention that Tucker is the murder victim in Coulson
& DeWeese's "Now You See Him/It/Them".
    Another classic in this sub-genre is the Larry Niven/David
Gerrold collaboration, "The Flying Sorcerers".  The novel takes
place on a planet whose inhabitants are heavily polytheistic.  All
the gods, plus the heavenly bodies, are named after various sf
personalities, and all the female characters are given the first
names of noted female sf authors.  Among other Tuckerizations in the
book, one finds Hitch, the God of Birds, Ouells and Virn, the twin
suns, Tukker, the God of Names, Elcin, the God of Lightning, and
Rotn'bair, the God of Sheep.  This book has recently come back into
print; there's also a fairly detailed analysis of who the various
names really are in the review of it published in The Alien Critic
back in May 1974.
   A fairly recent example of this is Isaac Asimov's mystery novel,
"Murder at the ABA," which involves not only sf personalities, but
other varieties of notable from the writing/publishing worlds.
Norman Spinrad's non-sf novel "Passing Through the Flame" includes
several scenes depicting an sf writer who is almost certainly Harlan
Ellison.  Most recently, a number of the hexes in the Well World
(from Jack Chalker's series) are named after sf authors.

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 84 17:56 EST (Tuesday)
From: Stevenson.Wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: TV SF movie featuring bodies on slabs

Sounds like "The Questor Tapes", one of Gene Roddenberry's
creations.  Like "Genesis II" and "Spectre", it was a pilot for a
proposed series.

Questor (played by Robert Foxworth) was an android built by a
scientist (Dr.  Vaslovic or something like that) who'd mysteriously
disappeared shortly before finishing the job.  Someone else finished
the construction and found the mag tapes containing the programming
for Questor (hence the title).  Once programmed, Questor waited
until he was alone and did a little further work on himself, after
which he looked completely human.  He then took off in search of
Vaslovic to find out his purpose for existing (that part of the
programming had been lost), with the FBI, CIA, or whoever in hot
pursuit.  Along the way, he acquired a human friend (played by
Bradford Dillman, I think) who helped him.

He eventually found the cave under a mountain (Ararat, I believe)
with the row of bodies on slabs, the last body being Vaslovic's.
Vaslovic had just enough remaining energy to tell Questor that each
"body" was an android -- a guardian, meant to pass for human and
subtly influence world events so as to prevent humanity from
exterminating itself via war, pollution, etc.  As each guardian wore
out, it built its successor, but for some reason I don't remember,
Vaslovic's construction of Questor had been interrupted.

Note that a similar idea of guiding-humanity-through-the-critical-
period-while-wisdom-is-catching-up-to-technology was also used in
the Star Trek episode "Assignment Earth", where Robert Lansing was a
human guardian, trained by aliens from the future and sent back to
1960's Earth, and Teri Garr was a secretary who discovered his
secret.  Roddenberry had hoped for a "spin-off" series from that
episode.

        -- Bill Stevenson

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people for the same
information:
Dave Steiner (Steiner@Rutgers),
Carroll@Usc-Isib,
Swen Johnson (Sjohnson.es@Parc-Maxc),
William Daul (WBD.tym@office-2),
Ron Jarrell (Tim%vpivm2.bitnet@berkely),
ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!bethan@ucb-vax,
Mary Anne Espenshade
   (hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae@ucb-vax),
John Platt (platt@cit-20),
Don Schmitz@cmu-rl-arm),
Matt Lecin (Lecin@RU-blue)
]

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 1984 13:43:50 PST
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: Movie Question - Questor

   Speaking of androids, did anyone see "Prototype" about a month
ago?  Made for TV, with ...his name's on the tip of my tongue - the
Captain from The Sound of Music... as the fatherly creator of an
android named Michael.  He took him away when he learned the Army
was wanting to use him for purposes he didn't approve of.  They had
a point, though- they paid for it, it was theirs.  He only built it
for them.  Interesting study of the man, not hard-core SF, but quite
good.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 84 14:20:50 PST (Tuesday)
From: Chin.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek II question

Upon watching Star Trek II on tape the other night, a thought
occurred to me:
Why couldn't Kirk use the transporter to dematerialize the Genesis
device into its component atoms?  I know they weren't out of range,
since he offered to beam Kahn and survivors over.  Am I missing
something here?

                                        Phil Chin

------------------------------

Date: Tue 31 Jan 84 16:06:08-PST
From: Cher Gunby <CHER@WASHINGTON.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #23

Over the past few days, Ridley Scott's name has been tossed about
concerning the Apple MacIntosh ad...and yes, he did direct "Alien"
however, he did not direct "Blade Runner".  His brother, Tony Scott
directed it.  Both are quite talented and seem to have a geniune
"feel" for the sf genre.  Credit where credit is due, please....

cher gunby
univ. of washington
(cher@washington)

------------------------------

Date: 30 January 1984 1532-est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Comments on  Apples

I too had the same feelings, impressions, and intuitions as John 
Aspinall about the Macintosh commercial!  I thought someone was coming
out with a new SF movie loosely based on 1984, then switched to the
idea of Olympics, etc.  It's nice to see someone else's mind twists
the way mine does!

Nasty replies should probably be sent to my personal mailbox rather 
than here (your choice).
                              Roz
                    (rtaylor at radc-multics)

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 1984  11:20 EST (Tue)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: A Universal system of units

    Stop, Stop, your both wrong.  Neither 42 or 47 is the right
number on which to base the universal system.  The correct number is
obviously 17; the most random number.  What better number on which
to base a totally random concept?

Greg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #25
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Feb 84 1242-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 3 Feb 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:
            Books - Farmer & Recommendations (2 msgs) &
                    Cats in SF & Women in SF & 
                    It's Got To Get Better....,
            Films - A Boy and His Dog & SW Piracy &
                    Authors and Films & Ridley Scott (2 msgs)
            Television - Dr. Who & Questor,
            Miscellaneous - SF Conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Feb 84 11:06 MST
From: RMann@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Philip Jose Farmer

Well, I liked the Riverworld series with the following proviso: By
the time I got to the end of the last book where the secret was
finally revealed, I was bored to death and couldn't care less.
Farmer should have made at most two books. However, I liked what he
did.  Basically, this was an adventure-type story started with a
SF-F premise. If you were turned off by the development, then that's
too bad. I thought it was clever and interesting to "invent"
historical characters and give them an interesting personality.
Indeed, it was enough to hold my attention and read the books
effortlessly.

You have to admit that Farmer is not a hack. He is endowed with an
excellent imagination, vision, and well above average writing
skills. His latest book, whose name escapes me, is wonderful. I mean
there are people on this net who like really DULL stuff that I can't
read. e.g., the Dragonlovers of Porn, so when someone says he finds
Farmer disappointing, it makes me wonder what kind of stuff is
necessary to get their attention.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 84 23:02:23-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!cires!boulder!chris @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sf author recommendations

Firstly, thank you all very much for the previous recommendations.
Perhaps the ones I'm adding haven't been mentioned since they're
such excellent authors, but I'll go ahead anyway...

Stanislaw Lem  (the most widely read SF author in the world)

        Best books-

                Solaris -- dark, fascinating hard-science tale.
                Tales of the Pilot, Pirx -- Excellent descriptions
        of the rigors in space travel.
                Ciberiad -- Incredibly funny, sharp (and occasionally
        recursive!) stories.
                and many others.

Alfred Bester  (No one seems to have heard of him)

        Best books-

                The Demolished Man -- Murder, where the police can
        read your mind... the best of this idea I've seen.
                The Stars My Destination -- One of the five best
        Science fiction stories, ever.
                The Computer Connection -- Also called Extro!, kind
        of Strange.  With a very capital S.
                NEVER READ THE BOOK BY BESTER `Golem 100'.  It is
        almost Pure Trash.

        Thanks for your attention, happy reading...
        Chris Sterritt

{ucbvax!hplabs|allegra!nbires|decvax!kpno|harpo!seismo|ihnp4!kpno}
                        !hao!boulder!chris

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  1 Feb 1984 05:44:16-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm (Len Alanurm)
From: <decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm@Shasta>
Subject: Book recommendation

I have recently read a book that I would like to recommend.  The
book has the unlikely title of "The Saga of Cuckoo" and it is really
the two stories "Farthest Star" and "Wall Around a Star" by Frederik
Pohl and Jack Williamson put into one book. I would class the
stories in the Ringworld Series range of interest.

The plot line consists of the dicovery of an object 20,000 light
years away by a federation of intelligent races including the newly
franchised humanity.  Representatives of all races are sent out to
study the object called Lambda and known as "Cuckoo" (from
expression "Cloud-cuckoo land"). The only method of getting there
was to send replicates of beings by tachycon-transporter.  These
replicates include "edited" persons and "purchased" persons. The
replicates also know that they are not the original even though they
have all the memories of the original up to that point. The
replicates also die again and again and again. There are several
subplots that go on and the characters are fairly well developed.

                                                Len Alanurm

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 84 15:53:18-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Cats in SF

Don't know if I missed this already, but the narrator of

"Space-Time For Springers" is a cat.

Who's the author?
Darned if I can remember, maybe Cyril Kornbluth?

Mike Ciaraldi
ciaraldi@rochester

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 1984 1003 PST
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VAX>
Subject: Women in SF
Reply-to: RAOUL@JPL-VAX

The setting in "Virgin Planet" by Poul Anderson is a female dominant
culture.  A star ship full of women (evidently prospective brides
for colonists on some new planet) crash landed on an uncharted
planet.  The women reproduce themselves from cloning machines
derived from the wreckage of the ship.  Obviously the groups that
control these machines have great influence.  This goes on for
several generations until an explorer ship piloted by a single male
lands on the planet.  The story begins here with his adventures.  I
read this book some time ago but I still remember the descriptions
of the social structures of the various towns the male explorer
visited.  It's worth a look.

Al Wong

------------------------------

Date: 30 January 1984 1532-est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS
Subject: It's got to get better....

Speaking of books, stories, etc one has continued to read thinking 
that the hero has GOT to get smarter (I mean, gee, anyone really that
dumb would forget to breathe, right?!?)...I read at least a third of
Norman's Gor series before I decided the hero was just too dumb to
live; of course, if you like Norman's portrayal of women (?are there
really women like THAT?)....  Another book in that vein (reading,
while thinking it's got to get better) was Herber's Santaroga
(Sarratoga?) Barrier.  As I recall the people raised a fungus or
something which was habit forming.  It's been a VERY long time since I
read it.  The two rememberances I have of the book were: 1) there has
got to be a "kicker" here, somewhere--just keep reading, Roz, and 2)
my visualization of the taste of the "product" resembled the flavor of
blue cheese (good quality blue cheese rather than the "other" stuff!).
If I missed something good in the book, I have no qualms about someone
out there educating me on the item(s)!

Nasty replies should probably be sent to my personal mailbox rather 
than here (your choice).
                              Roz
                    (rtaylor at radc-multics)

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 84 13:55:00-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: A BOY AND HIS DOG

Having been present at the first 2 1/2 times A BOY AND HIS DOG was
presented (Discon II, Washington, D.C., 1974) I can say that Ellison
acted very happy about the movie, and in fact personally introduced
the movie and ol' L. Q. Jones, its producer (he, lately of "Green
Acres" infame).  The desert and the underground city were CHEAPER
than the ruined city of the story, and that's the only reason they
were used.  And yes, ecofreaks, the whole mess was restored to
pristine desolation when the shooting was over.

One of the many great things about that movie was the complete and
utter failure of the "prediction" about the sequence of Presidents:
"Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy..." (Of course,
with that bunch running things that long, one would expect society
to be wiped out in nuclear war, right?)

Anyhow, let's not read artsy meaning into strictly commercial
decisions.

(Harlan's biggest problem that night was that the projectors were
crappy, and he wound up showing the first reel twice--once with
jumpiness, once with distorted sound track.  He gave up in disgust
and rescheduled it the next night, rather than trust his ONE PRINT
(!) to the terrors of the carbon arc.)

Ellison also asked all of us to submit new names, since he was
afraid of the namby-pamby original.  I submitted THE MUD ABOVE, THE
SKY BELOW...

--arlan andrews, at&t consumer products, tuesday evening, indpls, in

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Feb 84 11:27:16 EST
From: Rick Turner (BRL) <rturner%darcom-hq.arpa@darcom-hq.arpa>
Subject: Ref: SW Piracy

WE may all have Lensman integrity, but others don't...

I just returned from a trip to Germany, and videos of TESB and ROTJ
are flourishing over there. I didn't get to see any of them, but I
understand they are of terrible quality.

rick

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 1984 2136-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: authors and films

Can anyone out there think of any SF authors who participated in the
making of an SF movie?  There's Clarke and "2001" of course, but
he's the only one I'm sure of.  I have a vague recollection that
Heinlein did something for "Destination Moon" and that Wells was
involved in "Things to Come", but I'm not sure about either.  The
technical errors in SF movies are so gross and so common that one
would think that the producers would hire an author just for
verisimilitude.

/jlr

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 17:29:12 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Ridley Scott and BladeRunner

To Whomever made the comment that Ridley Scott did *not* direct
Blade Runner...

No!  No!  No!

I have copies of both the book, massive advertising material, and
the script.  Ridley Scott directed Blade Runner (and The Duelists,
and Alien, and the Apple commercial...and about 10,000 other
commercials).

His brother, Tony Scott, has directed many commercials and one flop,
The Hunger.

An examination of credits in the film--or the novel (if you have a
post-movie edition of "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?") or
any of a number of other sources would have prevented this
confusion!

Flame OFF!!!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(I HAVE RETURNED!!!!!)

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to Peter REiher (Reiher@ucla-cs for
the above informtation]

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  3 Feb 1984 06:42:51-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta
Subject: re: Ridley Scott

Two comments about recent postings concerning Ridley Scott:

(1)     Unless there is something fishy going on, Cher
<CHER@WASHINGTON.ARPA> Gunby's claim that Tony Scott, not Ridley
Scott, directed BLADE RUNNER is wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!!!! Ridley
*did* direct BLADE RUNNER --- it says so in all of my sf film
magazines (CINEFANTASTIQUE on down) as well as on my videotape of
the movie.
        His brother Tony Scott, who like Ridley learned his trade
filming commercials, has directed only one feature film to date:
THE HUNGER, an undeservedly maligned horror film. Tony's style is
much like his brother's; without the credits, I might have guessed
that Ridley directed it. As Cher said, "Credit where credit is due,
please...."

(2)     I'd also like to "correct" (in quotes because I have no hard
proof) another comment made about Ridley Scott by Peter Reiher
(quoting a theater giveaway magazine). I had never heard that he was
"canned [from DUNE] because he insisted on concentrating on an
incestuous relationship between Paul and Jessica". Everything that I
have read (which, I admit, could have been "white-washed") indicates
that he left the project of his own volition because he was getting
exasperated by the "off-again/on-again" nature of the production,
and the chance to direct BLADE RUNNER came along.

                        ---jayembee
                           (Jerry Boyajian @ DEC Maynard)
                           (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 31 Jan 1984 17:03:14-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!yoda!horovitz@Shasta
Subject: Doctor Who

     In response to the questions about the Doctor, he is has
received a Doctrate in all sciences from the accademy of Gallifrey.
After graduating, he changed his name to Doctor from his old name
which is a mathametical formula that translates to Pheta Sigma(from
the episode the Armaggedon Factor).  The Doctor does not like to use
his skills to practice medicine and relies on other people to do
that.

     Out with the old in with the new.  Peter Davison is being
replaced by Colin Baker (article in latest Starlog issuse).  Baker
has been seen in a Doctor Who episode, "The Arc of Infinity", he was
one of the guards in the citadel.

n.l.h.
'if you are ever stuck between two desicions always make the third'

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  1 Feb 1984 09:46:23-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: TV Movie Scott Turner almost remembers

The TV movie you are remembering is "The Questor Tapes".  Part of
the reason you probably found the scene evocative is because this
was the pilot of a Roddenberry project and he tends to pay attention
to details like background music having character themes and careful
scene setting.

I thought the opening where the robot wakes up and realizes it must
transform itself into the semblance of a human-being and get away
the most powerful.  Being born and growing up, all in a few minutes!
The scene with the predecessor "guardians" (about 30 as I recall)
is, of couse, orphan finds father.  It had everything: life, death,
family tradition, good against evil (including saving the world),
even a little love and sex.

Whenever one of these lone good guy against the evil organization
plots gets instanced, did you notice that all the good guys, who are
linked in no particular organization, recognize our hero as a good
guy who deserves their help, and proceed to give him/her/it useful
advice, helpful tools and one or more pointers to other people who
are good guys that might help him/her/it?  It seems to be one of
those things that is too obvious to mention, that the good guys of
the world are all linked together in this chaotic non-organization
(like SF fandom or the Usenet...) and that good guys recognize each
other because they notice each other doing "things that good guys
do" (like helping other people out).

As I recall Questor very quickly stumbled onto the right people to
help him - perhaps because anyone is at most 5 friendship-links away
from everybody else in the world.  I wonder if we could figure out
whether the human race is really going to make it from the relative
efficiencies of a non-organized network vs a set of quasi-competing
distinct organizations.  Can the set of organizations that interact
on neutral principals (eg cost/benefit) be ignored in figuring this
model?  If the cost/benefit interactors in the net help the bad
guys, then apparently, capitalism is bad like the socialists claim.
That would be an interesting system to model.

                                      - Suford
                                  Decwrl!rhea!Spider!Lewis@SHASTA

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 1984 2325-PST
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons List updated
To: Cons-List update notice list:

OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready
for FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login
within FTP, using any password.

CONS.TXT is currently 1082 lines (or 53,271 characters).  Please try
to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if
possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #26
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Feb 84 2354-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 5 Feb 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
          Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Comments on Reviews,
          Films - Dark Star & Star Wars,
          Television - The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs) & The Questor Tapes,
          Miscellaneous - The Fantasy Trip & FTL and Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 84 16:23:41-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!rogerc @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Friday, by Heinlein

I have not been on the net very long, so I don't know if Robert
Heinlein's novel "Friday" has been reviewed here.  My wife bought me
this book for Christmas and here is my opinion of it:

PURE DRIVEL FROM FRONT TO BACK!

Pretty strong words from a Heinlein fan.

  Mugs Away, Mate!
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  \\\\\\        _________
  Doctor Dart   - - - - - - - - - -  >>>>>>----==(_________)-----
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  //////
  ..!decvax!tektronix!orca!rogerc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 84 17:13:09-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!tekecs!patcl @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more

I completely agree with your assessment of "Friday" as drivel,
although I must admit that my opinion is based on only the first 1/3
of the book, as that was all I could stomach. I think the worst
aspect of the book was the endlessly monotonous dialogue, which
displayed such a contrived and pre-adolescent attempt at "cuteness"
that it made me wince.

Speaking of bad sf, this gives me an opportunity to voice a
dissenting opinion on Brin's "Startide Rising", another dog that, to
use the words of Dorothy Parker, "should not be tossed lightly
aside, but hurled with great force".  Probably the worst attempt at
depicting aliens that has appeared in many years. Second only to
Gene Wolfe in the bad writing catagory.

Pat Clancy
Tektronix

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 84 8:50:40-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein and Wolfe

More flame on Heinlein.  Someone, I think it was George Orwell, said
that H. G. Wells was "a natural storyteller who has sold his
birthright for a pot of message."  I think that the same is true of
Heinlein.  One of the best examples of this is Glory Road, of which
the first two-thirds is a rollicking adventure story (I think that
it is a bit heavy handed in the sex department, but that is one of
Heinlein's major failings generally), but in the last third he gets
on his high horse and starts preaching his socio-political message
and gets impossible to read.

Starship Troopers is another good example of Heinlein's writing
merely to preach.  Johnny Rico (the hero--Heinlein does not have
protagonists, he has heros.  See Lazarus Long) is a mere cardboard
cutout, not a character, and any novel that has as verbatim
lectures from courses in "History and Moral Philosophy" makes me
think that the author has other motives than just telling a story.
I first read it in college when I took an SF course, and the
professor, knowing that I had served a tour as an infantry officer
in Vietnam, asked me what I thought of ST.  I said, knowing nothing
of Heinlein's background, "This author has an intimate knowledge of
the military, but he has never served in combat.  No one who has
ever been in combat could have possibly written this novel.  It
glorifies war."  It turned out that I was perfectly correct,
Heinlein graduated from Annapolis in the late 1920s, and was
invalided out of the Navy in the mid-30s with tuberculosis.  He
spent WWII in an R&D job in Philadelphia (for you Heinlein fans out
there, I am not trying to disparage him, just pointing out his lack
of combat experience, which is important in judging any author who
writes war novels).  For an antidote to ST, read Joe Haldeman's The
Forever War, which I am told was written in answer to ST.

I like Gene Wolfe.  The Book of the New Sun reminds me very much of
James Branch Cabell.  Has anyone else noticed this?

                                John Hobson
                                AT&T Bell Labs
                                Naperville, IL
                                (312) 979-7293
                                ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 84 21:36:29-EST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!mprvaxa!tbray @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein and Wolfe

x <-- USENET insecticide

I'm always happy to read someone flaming Heinlein.  I hate Heinlein
so much that I hate myself when I occasionally am trapped in the
grip of his once-formidable storytelling ability.  Heinlein is a
classic example of great talent foundering under the weight of
totally corrupt and indefensible ideology.  The Richard Wagner of
SF.

So how can someone with the sense to hate Heinlein also put down
Gene Wolfe?!?!  If anyone is reading this and doesn't know about
Gene Wolfe they should run, not walk, to the nearest bookstore and
pick up The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Gene Wolfe's Book of Days, and
The Devil In a Forest.

Tim Bray  ...decvax!microsoft!ubc-vision!tbray

------------------------------

Date: 2-Feb-84 16:33 PST
From: Rich Zellich  <RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3>
Subject: Re: V9 #24, John Redford reviews of The Man in the Tree,
Subject: Courtship Rite

I agree with John about The Man in the Tree.  I enjoyed it very
much, up until the end when it just kind of changed direction and
then ended abruptly.  There doesn't seem to have been any point to
it (none of the preceding sections of the book were required to
reach that particular ending point - Knight was telling one story
and then stuck the end from a different story on it).

I disagree strongly with his comments on Courtship Rite; I think he
missed some essential points - one of them being that ritual torture
normally had nothing to do with mate-selection.  The particular case
in the book where that occurred was a unique case, where the man
really didn't want to marry that particular woman into his group (he
had been ordered to for political and other reasons) and was hoping
she wouldn't survive the ritual torture game (the ritual having
nothing to do with mate-selecion if I remember right; just a
standard challenge that could be put to any opponent).

-Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@OFFICE-3>

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  2 Feb 1984 13:15:36-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: Dark Star

The more you know about SF and SF movies the funnier Dark Star is.
If you don't know about the scene that a scene in Dark Star is
satyrizing, you will certainly not think it is funny and might well
wonder what is going on.  And since it has a basically nihilistic
underlying theme, it could easily stike one as so-so without the
knowledge of all the gung-ho heroics it is parodying.

I really like the dead captain in the block of ice (preserved in a
semblance of alive by elctrical current through his brain)
complaining that his crew didn't come to visit often enough.  The
talking bomb that had to be persuaded to do what it was supposed to
and kept spouting philosophy (not quoting, it had arrived at its
conclusions independently).

I was in stitches!  Just the parody of the noble "boldly go where no
man has gone before, seek out new life" .... and kill it before it
gets dangerous!

With the world acting so much like a parody, intentional parody gets
harder to recognize every day, but parody Dark Star is!

                                - Suford

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 84 8:10:08-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!drutx!drufl!rjs @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SW apostasy

I asked Hutch to elaborate on the idea of foreshadowing and its use.
He responded with the following communique:

Sure.  What I was saying, (altho on re-reading, not saying well) was
that the similarities between the four plot-sublines of ROTJ and the
other two Starwars movies MIGHT be uses of the literary "devices" of
foreshadowing and underscoring (maybe the wrong term).

If you are unfamiliar with foreshadowing, or prefiguring (a similar
technique) it basically consists of using a theme or motif early in
a story in order to prepare or lead the audience to a later
repetition of the motif, which is hopefully a surprising or
especially satisfying thing given the later situation.

The scene where Vader was "tempting" Luke in TESB was a foreshadow
of the (expected) later battle, as was the Saber duel in New Hope.
The effect was then especially nice as Luke, previously tempted by
the vestigial Dark Side, is able to similarly tempt Vader's
vestigial Light Side.  Of course, in order to make it all obvious to
the critics, we have the Emperor also trying the same tricks to
seduce Luke, who is saved largely because he doesn't care about the
Emperor and therefore doesn't really pay him a lot of attention.

Similar things happen all through.

Underscoring is the trick of repeating elements through a story in
order to make a point about the character or theme.  An excellent
example is the very oft-repeated shaving episodes in the Thomas
Covenant stories by Stephen R.  Donaldson.  Covenant's insistence on
remaining a leper would have been nicely (and subtly) brought out
(IF it hadn't been presented in such a heavy-handed fashion).

I recall also mentioning another storytelling device, but I forget
now what it was.  I did notice something some of my friends missed,
in ROTJ.  There was a strong element of paralellism in the three
ongoing stories of the latter half of the film.  Specifically, the
ground and space battles reflected the battle between Luke and the
Emperor.  This was both a nice dramatic touch, making the turn of
events seem blacker and blacker, and a rather nice illustration of
Lucas' religious assertions about the Force.  The actual battle was
really between Luke and the Emperor, and the other two battles were
reflections and tools of the real combat between Dark and Light.
Nice touch.

Hutch


Thank you, Hutch, for the good words!

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 84 15:25:50-PST (Sun)
From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven

In fact, I have it from unimpeachable sources that Ms. LeGuin
actually had considerable say in the development of the movie of
Lathe of Heaven, and up til it was released, had the right to simply
scratch the entire production completely.  Not bad, considering what
most film contracts do to the writers.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 84 22:15:57-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven

Re: Lathe of heaven.  There was the question "did they actually
manage to turn that mess into a good movie?"

I didn't read the book.  I saw the movie, though.  Twice.  I had to
see it a second time because the first time I saw it, my brother
brought over a sausage pizza and we saw it together; I couldn't
decide if it was the pizza or the movie that made me sick.  It
turned out to be the movie.  It was one of those pretentious, "I
think I'll be confusing so they'll think I'm intelligent" stories.
The only thing I liked about it was the name of the main character,
George Orr, pronounced "Jor Jor".

Mark E. Mallett
decvax!sii!mem

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 84 00:31:26 EST
From: MCGREW@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: Slight Correction:

   A slight correction to the questor article: the human companion
that helped out Questor (and was to be the human advisor to Questor-
as-world-supervisor) was played by Mike Farrell (of MASH) fame.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 17:35:27 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: The Fantasy Trip

Dear All:

Once upon a time there was a Referee who ran a group of crazies
through a gaming system called The Fantasy Trip, which was designed
by another crazy by the name of Steve Jackson...

However, one day, the innocent Referee parked his car in Newark, in
a "secure" parking lot in order to pick up some material needed at a
bargaining session.  When he returned to his car all of his Fantasty
Trip materials--including nearly two years worth of notes, maps,
adventure ideas, etc.--were stolen.

He decided to pursue a Quest.  A Quest to replace his Fantasy Trip
materials.  Unfortunately, Metagaming has gone out of business, and
The Fantasy Trip has gone out of print...

I am looking for anyone who is willing to part with the "main-frame"
sections of Metagaming's The Fantasy Trip.  Specifically, I am
looking for "Advanced Melee", "Advanced Wizard", "In the Labyrinth",
"Referee's Shield", "TFT Codex".  I would be willing to pay up to
twice the original amount for material that is in *excellent*
condition, and various amounts above original price for material in
other conditions....

Please reply by way of my home site...

Thanks muchly,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 18:13:41 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: FTL and time travel

     A few digests back, someone made the comment that no science
fiction authors had ever made use of the fact that according to
quantum physics, faster-than-light travel automatically implied time
travel. One science fiction author HAS made use of the fact: Robert
Heinlein in Time Enough For Love.  I can't find my copy, so I can't
give a direct quote, but I believe the concept is first put to
Lazarus when he is still on Secundus. He is looking for something
new to do because after 3000 or 4000 years he is finally bored.
Someone suggests he go back in time. He says How?  Apparently, when
one makes a decision of where to come out into the regular universe,
one also makes a decision as to WHEN to come out. Lazarus says:"I'll
have to think about it; it sounds like making an intentional bad
landing." He does use this means to travel back in time, where he
has many adventures of an unusual nature which I don't think I can
mention on the net.

RAH! RAH! RAH!
have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #27
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Feb 84 0020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Feb 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:
                  Books - Damon Knight & LeGuin &
                          E. C. Tubb & A Request,
                  Films - Dark Star,
                  Miscellaneous - E.T. Cuisine & 
                          FTL Time Dilation Story & 
                          That Old-Time Relligion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 1984 14:15:09-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: "long silence" of Damon Knight

   Knight hasn't been out of circulation that long; THE WORLD AND
THORINN came out 2-3 years ago, though I would say (guessing from
jrl's pejorative description) that it was similar to his latest (I
read that and was \not/ impressed). Knight has been something of an
experimentalist for quite some time; I'd also say his greatest/best
influence on the field was as a critic and workshop leader rather
than as a writer per se.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 1984  18:50 EST (Sat)
From: Paul Fuqua <PF@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Yet Another Author Recommendation

     I've noticed one author with a consistent universe who has been
left out of the digests I've read: Ursula K LeGuin.  Most of her
science-fiction novels are placed in the same universe, with an
unobtrusive internal chronology that makes them very easy to enjoy
"out of order."  They are (ordered roughly internally):

The Dispossessed
Rocannon's World
Planet of Exile
City of Illusions
The Word for World is Forest  (novella)
The Left Hand of Darkness

This is not the order in which they were written, and the
connections are very tenuous in some instances.  I'm also sure I've
forgotten one, I usually do (not the same one each time, either).
Other books, not necessarily in the same universe:

The Compass Rose  (collection)
The Wind's Twelve Quarters  (collection)
The Beginning Place
The Lathe of Heaven
The Earthsea Trilogy
    A Wizard of Earthsea
    The Tombs of Atuan
    The Farthest Shore

                              pf

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 1984 14:02:34-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
To: jcc.nsf@csnet-relay
Subject: Dumarest

The reason few people are discussing shoot-em-up space opera is that
most of us, even the software weenies, have outgrown it. I read all
of the Dumarest series in a month or so, back when there were only
12-14 of them, and found them "not \that/ bad, but, Lord, it wasn't
good." The polite term for books in which the same scene (cyclan
scout interfacing with master brain) appears on p.  37 of every
volume in the series is "hackwork".
   The fact that Tubb wrote a SPACE: 1999 ("marked down from 2001")
book is a good measure of his ability. (Yes, I know Blish, Haldeman,
and MacIntyre have written STAR TREK books, but (aside from the fact
that ST was a great deal better) Blish was dying and the ones by H
and V are far better than the rest of them.)

------------------------------

From: FINCH.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Date: 3 Feb 84 22:43:25 CST
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #25

I have been looking for a book that I read in the 60's (I think it
was 63 or 64). I don't remember the author or the title but I am
hoping someone can help me out. I would like to find it and read it
again.

It starts with a woman riding a bus when suddenly she can read other
peoples thoughts. She is amazed by this but it doesn't last long. In
the next few days the ability seems to turn on and off as if a
switch was thrown. Later in the book we find out that 20 some years
previously some aliens landed on earth and did something to several
hundred pregnant women so their children would have esp and all the
classical mental abilities, but only if certain radiation was
present. Naturally they had transmitters to transmit this radiation.

These aliens by nature were cowards and they wanted to conquer the
earth. But being cowards, they could not bring themselves to do any
violent acts so when the children were born they kidnapped them and
raised them on the moon. Somehow they missed the protagonist and she
was left to save the world.

The aliens kept the boys and the girls separate and ignorant of each
other. Different radiation controlled each. They had hundreds of
boys and a lot fewer girls. Their plan was to send the boys down to
conquer the earth and kill all humans then send the girls down later
when the boys transmitter was turned off and let them kill the boys.
Then the aliens could take over.

Seems strange not to remember the title at least after all that, but
that's the way it is.

Jim Finch
Xerox, Dallas

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 19:29:42-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!kaufman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Favourite SF Movies - (nf)

But how do I know Dark Star really exists?  :-)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 13:55:57-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: E.T. cuisine

Boiled Vogon Grandmother.

Take a Vogon Grandmother, season with salt, pepper, and garlic.
Boil for three hours over moderate heat.
Serve to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Trall.
(Serving suggestion:  A Pan-Galactic Gargle-Blaster is the preferred
beverage with Boiled Vogon Grandmother.  It takes the taste away.)

                                John Hobson
                                AT&T Bell Labs
                                Naperville, IL
                                (312) 979-0193
                                ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 84 4:04:46-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FTL time dilation story - (nf)

Your description reminds me of the ending of Joe Haldeman's "Forever
Wars" (a VERY good book!), in which (due to the LONG trips involved)
if you ever got separated from someone you could never be rejoined
(practically speaking) in common times again.

There is also a trick ending here, which I will not spoil.

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 84 00:04:16 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Old-Time Religion
Cc: boken@RUTGERS.ARPA, laidlaw@RU-BLUE.ARPA, promish@RU-BLUE.ARPA,

     Ok folks. After 3 months of waiting, I am finally giving out
with the compiled (but not executed) version of Old Time Religion.
Judith Schrier, bless her soul, actually typed in the contents of
Filthy Pierre's songbook, as did a few other people. However, since
she included music, she gets the credit. Topics that are listed are:

Aphrodite, Zeus, Buddha, Druids, Zarathustra, Sun Myung Moon,
Temple, Jesus, Egyptians, Dagon, Hari Krishna, Bubastes, Cabala,
Mogan David, Boris Godunov, Shinto, Castaneda, Azathoth, Parsi,
Conan(Onan), Coven, Benares, Thor And Odin, Voodoo, Valkyries,
Northwoods, Nirvana, Jehova, Loki, Enlil, Mithras, Yuggoth, Astarte,
Hephaestus, Valhalla, Popacatapetl, Gods Of Cargo, Hades


                        REAL OLD TIME RELIGION
                        (to Old Time Religion)

                 (sing verses to same tune as chorus)

                              G                G
CHORUS:         Give me that real old time religion,
                  d  d   e    g    g    g  g  e  d

                              D               G
                Give me that real old time religion,
                  g  g   g    a    a   a   b  a  g

                              G7              C
                Give me that real old time religion,
                  g  g   a    b    b   b   b  a  g

                      G     D7       G
                It's good enough for me.
                 e     d    f#    a  g


1)  We will pray to Aphrodite.
    She's cute but a little flighty
    In her flimsy see-through nightie,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

1a) In the church of Aphrodite,
    The priestess wears a see through nightie,
    She's a mighty righteous sightie,
    And she's good enough for me!
           (Chorus)

2)  We will pray to Father Zeus
    In his temple we'll hang loose
    Eating roast beef au jus,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

3)  We will pray just like the Druids
    Drinking strange fermented fluids
    Running naked through the wo-ods,
    And that's good enough for me.
[Alternative third line:  Running naked but for wo-ads]
           (Chorus)

4)  My roommate worships Buddha.
    There is no idol cuter.
    Comes in copper, bronze, and pewter,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

5)  We will worship Sun Myung Moon
    Though we know he is a goon.
    All our money he'll have soon.
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

6)  We will go down to the temple,
    Sit on mats woven of hemp(le),
    Try to set a good exemple [sic],
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

7)  We will finally pray to Jesus,
    From our sins we hope he frees us,
    Eternal life he guarantees us,
    And that's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

8)  Let us pray to Zarathustra
    Let us pray just like we useta
    I'm a Zarathustra boosta
    It's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

9)  Let us pray like the Egyptians
    Build pyramids to put our crypts in
    Fill our subways with inscriptions
    It's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

10) If it's good enough for Dagon
    That conservative old pagan
    Who still votes for Ronald Reagan
    It's good enough for me
           (Chorus)

11) We will have a mighty orgy,
    In the honor of Astarte
    It will be one helluva party
    And it's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

12) We will sacrifice to Yuggoth
    We will sacrifice to Yuggoth
    Burn a candle for Yog-Sothoth
    And the Goat with a thousand young.
           (Chorus)

13) We will all be saved by Mithras
    We will all be saved by Mithras
    Slay the bull and play the zithras
    On that resurrection day.
           (Chorus)

14) We will all bow down to Enlil
    We will all bow down to Enlil
    Pass your cup and get a refill
    With bold Gilgamesh the brave.
           (Chorus)

15) It was good enough for Loki
    It was good enough for Loki
    He thinks Thor's a little hokey
    And he's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

16) We will all go to Nirvana
    We will all go to Nirvana
    Make a left turn at Savannah
    And we'll see the Promised Land.
           (Chorus)

17) It was good for old Jehova
    He had a son who was a nova
    Hey there, Mithras move on ova'
    A new resurrection day.
           (Chorus)

18) Where's the gong gang? I can't find it
    I think Northwoods is behind it
    For they've always been cymbal minded
    Yet they're good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

19) I hear Valkyries a-comin
    In the air their song is coming
    They forgot the words they're humming
    Yet they're good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

20) There are people into voodoo
    There are people into voodoo
    I know I do; I hope you do
    And it's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

21) It was good for Thor and Odin
    It was good for Thor and Odin
    Grab an axe and get your woad on
    And it's good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

22) If your rising sign is Aries
    You'll be taken by the faeries
    Meet the Buddha in Benares
    Where he'll hit you with a pie.
           (Chorus)

23) There will be a lot of lovin'
    When we're gathered in our coven.
    Quit your pushin' and your shovin'
    So there'll be room enough for me.
           (Chorus)

24) There are followers of Conan.
    There are followers of Conan.
    They're all followers of Onan
    Yet they're good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

25) It could be that you're a Parsi.
    It could be that you're a Parsi.
    Walk on by her; you'll get in free
    And you're good enough for me.
           (Chorus)

26) Azathoth is in his Chaos.
    Azathoth is in his Chaos.
    Now if only he don't sway us,
    Then that's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

27) Just like Carlos Casteneda,
    Just like Carlos Casteneda,
    It'll get you sooner or later
    And it's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

28) There are some who practice Shinto.
    There are some who practice Shinto.
    There's no telling what we're into
    But that's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

29) We will venerate Bubastes.
    We will venerate Bubastes.
    If you like us then just ask us,
    And that's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

30) We will all sing Hari Krishna.
    We will all sing Hari Krishna.
    It's not mentioned in the mishna
    But that's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

31) We will read from the Cabala.
    We will read from the Cabala.
    It won't get you in Valhalla,
    Yet it's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

32) If you think that you'll be sa-ved,
    If you think that you'll be sa-ved,
    If you follow Mogan David,
    You're not good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

33) It's the opera written for us.
    We will all join in the chorus.
    It's the opera about Boris
    Which is Godunov for me.
            (Chorus)

34) There is room enough in Hades
    For lots of criminals and shadies
    And disreputable ladies,
    And they're good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

35) To the tune of Handel's "Largo"
    We will hymn the gods of cargo
    'Til they slap on an embargo
    And that's good enough for me.
             (Chorus)

36) Praise to Popacatapetl
    Just a tiny cigarette'll
    put him in terrific fettle
    so he's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

37) We will drive up to Valhalla
    riding Beetles, not Impalas
    singing "Deutschland Uber Alles"
    and that's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

38) We will all bow to Hephaestus
    As a blacksmith he will test us
    'cause his balls are pure asbestos
    so he's good enough for me.
            (Chorus)

Verses 1-7 (omitting 1a) were submitted ( and possibly written
by)Dan Ruvin.
Verses 8 and 9 submitted by John Redford
Verse 10 submitted by John "Out of tune again" Wenn
Music and verses 11-33 were submitted by Judith Schrier taken from
Filthy Pierre's Song Book.
verses 34-38 submitted by cca-unix  (whoever that is)

Hope it is enjoyed; Further submissions will be welcomed.

Thank you One and all!!!!!
/amqueue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #28
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Feb 84 1356-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Feb 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:
            Books - Chalker & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Lem &
                    Book Recommendations & Romanes a Clef,
            Films - Foreign Fantasy Films & Favorite SF Movies,
            Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  3 Feb 1984 09:17:04-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: Chalker

I believe that ALL the hexes in Jack Chalker's Well World series are 
named after SF people, writers, artists and fans.

                                 - Suford
                            (decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@shasta)

------------------------------

Date: Sun 5 Feb 84 13:17:56-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Heinlein's ideologies

Most of us seem to agree that some Heinlein books are a lot worse
than other Heinlein books.  My own list of bad ones includes
Starship Troopers, Farnham's Freehold, and Time Enough for Love.
For that matter, my list of good ones includes The Door into Summer,
Stranger in a Strange Land, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

But to what extent does this follow from any of Heinlein's several
ideologies?  It's not true that a book is bad merely because a
specific ideology is the basis for the plot and much of the action,
for then TMIAHM would be a lot worse than Glory Road, rather than a
lot better.  Nor, I think, do I just like the books whose ideology I
agree with.  Part of the problem may be that sometimes the ideology
gets in the way of proper construction, characterisation &c.

However, I think it's wrong to speak of Heinlein's "ideology" - I
get more than on ideology out of the books, and its not clear to me
which if any the author believes or lives by.  Perhaps the most
consistent motif is the concept of the "competent person" (and
Friday is not the only Heinlein competent female - consider Anne in
SIASL).  That seems more the antithesis to "ideology", which is
typically the refuge of incompetents.

Robert Firth

PS Hands off Richard Wagner.  I know he was a socialist, and wanted
by the Bavarian police for several years, but in those days
socialism was neither totally corrupt nor utterly indefensible.  And
what have you done as good as Parsifal?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 84 12:10:21-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more

>I completely agree with your assessment of "Friday" as drivel, 
>although I must admit that my opinion is based on only the first >1/3
of the book, as that was all I could stomach. I think the worst 
>aspect of the book was the endlessly monotonous dialogue, which 
>displayed such a contrived and pre-adolescent attempt at "cuteness" 
>that it made me wince.

I completely disagree with your assessment of "Friday". It's not Hugo
material, but I found that it had an aura of maturity and vision I
haven't seen in RAH since the Juvenile days (they may have been
strident, but they were good and he knew what he was trying to say).
What REALLY suprised me was the maturity he had in his sexually
oriented material in Friday. Most Heinlein either suffers from an
Oedipus or a candystore complex; I found Friday to be realistic about
things while still being RAH (a difficult line to tread).

>From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach 
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today?
                                Go, Lemmings, Go!

<I'll give up my quote of the week when YOU give up those pretty 
pictures!> I'm not worried. I gave myself up for dead before we 
started.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 1984 1954-PST
From: KRIEGER@USC-ECLB.ARPA
Subject: Lem's "His Master's Voice"

Has anybody read this book? Iam having difficulty locating it, and
have seen it only in hardback. Any information regarding its content
or availability would be much appreciated.

Please reply to KRIEGER@ECLB.

Thanks,
John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 84 09:39 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Book Recommendations

Alfred Bester is certainly not unknown in England (well no more than
any SF author is unknown!)  BTW the English title of "The Stars My
Destination" was "Tiger Tiger", which anyone who has read it will
comprehend.  There are also a couple of books of his short stories,
the titles of which I forget, but they are both excellent.

In the same sort of 1950s space opera genre, may I mention Charles
L.  Harness, whose three novels ("The Paradox Men", "The Rose" and
"The Ring of Ritornel") I can heartily recommend, and will submit
synopses if I get the time tomorrow.  Anyone who enjoys late-40s Van
Vogt (particularly the Null-A books) will certainly enjoy The
Paradox Men, which takes as its inspiration Toynbee's theories of
history (where Van Vogt used Korzybski's theories of General
Semantics).  The Rose also contains two of the nicest short-stories
I know "The Chess Players" and "The New Reality".

Even the people who have heard of Bester don't seem to have heard of
Harness!!

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  3 Feb 1984 09:17:04-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: Romanes a Clef

Another Roman a Clef is Rocket to the Morgue.  It is borderline SF, 
also by Tucker (as Wilson Tucker - I think his full name is Robert 
Wilson Tucker, hence Bob Tucker to his friends and fandom and Wilson 
Tucker to his readers and publishers).  The key to this novel (roman a
clef means novel with a key, in the sense that a cipher has a key) is
the descendents, publishers and fans of Arthur Conan Doyle.  I think
it was first published in the 50's.

Fan fiction does not, however, mean a roman a clef.  It merely means a
piece of fiction by a fan, usually published in a fanzine without more
than nominal recompense.  There is lots of excellent Trek fan fiction,
for instance that mundane publishers will probably never touch because
it has too much character development (even if the sex is left out...)

On the other hand, commercially published fiction by fans is not 
usually referred to a fan fiction.  After all, by being commercially 
published it has, paradoxically, become "real" fiction or even mundane
fiction!

Now, is the Starblaze books by Bjo about her 10 Years involved with 
Trek fan writing because it is ABOUT fans?  (It is non-fiction...)  A
purist would say: no.  It is about but not within fandom because it
was published by a commercial publisher for the world at large rather
that by a fan publisher for an audience within fandom.

The adjective "FAN" is comparatively restrictive.  It means not merely
having to do with lovers and/or readers of SF.  It means within the
subculture of FANDOM.  Its antithesis, non-fan or mundane is not
purely pejorative, since any person can become a fan by attending a
few cons and/or reading a few fanzines.  (I suspect subscribing to
LOCUS no longer counts as LOCUS has become a profit making -just
barely- concern and thus no longer TRULY FANNISH)

A few words are in order about "faanish" or "faaanish" a word that 
becomes more emphatic as "a"s are added to the middle.  It describes 
the more fanatic and exclusive involvement with the subculture, 
specifically, the fanzine portion.  It is occasionally used by more 
convention oriented fans as a pejorative implying impractical and 
narrow-minded, just as "convention fan" is occasionally used by 
fanzine fans to imply money- grubbing and insensitive.  Then there is
the term "media fan" used usually as a pejorative, to imply 
illiterate, non-contributing or even trouble-making.

The next seminar in the series will cover: neo-fan, fringe-fan, 
costume fan, fake fan and neo-pro.  subscribe now!  available for 
trade or "the usual" ( I think this means SASE plus a couple extra 
stamps )...

                                 - Suford
                            (decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@shasta)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 84 00:01:40 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: foreign fantasy movies

People have been suggesting their favorite sf movies.  I'd like to
tell you about a couple of extremely interesting fantasy movies.
Both are foreign, and subtitled, but don't let that put you off.

I feel almost compelled to tell people about these films, even
though the chances that they will ever get to see them are slim.
One of them plays about one night a year in Los Angeles, and perhaps
occasionally in cities like New York and San Francisco.  The other
plays almost nowhere, for reasons which will be made clear.  Should
you have any influence with convention film schedulers, I strongly
recommend the first, at least.

First, one of my favorite films of all time, "The Saragossa
Manuscript".  It's a Polish film, based on a collection of Polish
stories.  The film concerns a young Polish nobleman of the mid-18th
century.  Receiving an appointment as an officer in a Spanish
cavalry regiment, he makes the mistake (?) of taking a shortcut
through a notoriously haunted region of Spain.  After a bizarre
night in a haunted inn, he meets a hermit who tells him a strange
story.  Then he meets another traveller who tells him a strange
story.  Soon a gypsy is telling a strange story, in which someone
tells a strange story, in which someone tells a strange story...
The fun really begins when the layered stories start to interact.
(The recursion fans among us should be particularly amused).  The
film is loads of fun, with battles, duels, rogues, intrigue,
romance, almost everything you could want.  I never miss a chance to
see it.  The only drawbacks is that the film is in black and white,
when it really should be in color, and that it is in Polish, with
subtitles.  A truly audacious film, not at all the dour social
realism one expects out of Poland.

The other is a German film called "Munchausen", a version of the
legends of the famous German liar.  His fantastic stories include
riding a cannonball; a trip to the moon; a servant who can run from
Constantinople to Vienna, and back, in an hour, with time for a nap
on the way; a ring of invisibility; and more.  The film is in very
attractive technicolor, and, unlike most German films, is handled
with a very light touch.  Over all, it compares well with "The Thief
of Baghdad", though its effects are a little weaker.  There is only
one little problem: it was made in 1943.

There is absolutely no trace of Nazi philosophy in the film, or
militarism, or racial hatred, or even Teutonic/Nazi paraphenalia,
though there is a "modern" section which would have allowed plenty
of room for it.  None the less, it is a relic of the Nazi period.
As a result, it is almost never shown anywhere.  Whether or not this
is the correct policy to take with Nazi art is an interesting
question.  Students of film and sf/fantasy film completests are
advised to watch carefully for it, for it won't screen long, or
often.

                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: 5 February 1984 12:03 EST
From: David A. Adler <DAA @ MIT-ML>
Subject: ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS (with SPOILER) & THE LAST WAVE

In regard to favorite SF movies, I would like to add THE LAST WAVE.  
Unfortunately, I saw it a while ago and don't remember details about 
who directed it, when it was made, etc. The movie is about Australian
aborigines who still have full tribal rites in the cities. Through
some legal process, someone gets involved with the aborigines, finds
out that these tribes stil exist (when they weren't thought to), and
gets involved with history of the tribes.  He starts dreaming that
different things are happening, and when he is brought to a secret
temple, finds that these dreams were documented many years ago by the
aborigines. All in all a very confusing movie, but worth seeing.

Another movie that I have never watched but always come around during
Christmas on television is SANTA CLAUS CONQUERS THE MARTIANS. Anyone
ever watch it?

DAdler

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 5 February 1984 13:38:38 EST
From: Bob.Walker@CMU-EE-FARADAY
Subject: Dr. Who TV scripts?

I was wandering through the Walden Books store in a local mall, and
encountered, in the SF section, something on the order of 30 Dr. Who
books.  Never having seen them before, I took a closer look, and it
appears that they are novelizations based on the TV scripts,
sometimes with the names changed (ie, the "Moonbase" episodes became
"Dr. Who and the Cybermen", or something similar), but the names
usually stayed the same.  The books were published by "Target"
publishing company, and had a sticker on the back saying that they
were being distributed by some company in NJ (I don't have one of
the books handy - I can bring in details if anyone's curious).  The
price was $2.50 per book, and the series also included a 2-volume
"Programme Guide", also title "What's What and Who's Who", listing
the episodes each season, glossary of terms/places/characters, and
the different Doctors' companions cross-referenced by episode.  Has
anyone seen these before?  How accurately do they follow the scripts
(alas, we don't receive "Dr. Who" here in Pittsburgh - the only time
I get to see it is during extended visits to my in-laws in
Washington, DC)?

                - bob walker
                  (walker@cmu-ee-faraday)
                  (bob.walker@cmua)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 8:37:49-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!digi-g!brian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "Doctor" Who

The Doctor's degree is never specified.  He got it on Gallifrey,
home world of the Time Lords.  When he is asked what he is a doctor
of, he dodges the question.
                                                (signed)
                                              Merlyn Leroy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #29
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Feb 84 1408-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:
                Books - Benford & Brin & Heinlein &
                        Leiber & Robinson & A request,
                Films - Obscure SF Films & Star Wars,
                Television - The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - 1984 Space Lectures & Munchausen &
                        Old-Time Religion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 February 1984 12:03 EST
From: David A. Adler <DAA @ MIT-ML>
Subject: ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS (with SPOILER) & THE LAST WAVE

I just finished reading ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS, by Gregory Benford 
(Timescape, $15.95), and thought I would talk about it. It has a 
similar setup to that of TIMESCAPE (written in 1980), in that the 
chapters alternate between time. Most of the book follows the travel 
of a scientific space unit searching for planets with intelligent life
from the years 2056 to 2064. The rest of the book deals with life on
earth in the year 2061. Unlike TIMESCAPE, the two parts are thinly
tied together, with earth sending messages about what is happening
back home and the scientists making connections between what they see
around planets who have had intelligent life forms.

Parts of the book were a little slow going and drawn out, but other 
sections made the old rocking chair rock a little faster. The book 
also contains similar scientific knowledge that TIMESCAPE did, 
intricately describing the passage through a ramscoop or studying the
chemical makeup ofanimals. Overall, I'd give the book about a 7 to 7.5
one the 1 to 10 scale.

*** SPOILER *** For those more interested in the plot.

The space lab is looking for intelligent life and planets that earth 
can expand to so it is harder for humans to be wiped out. They find 
that every planet that had technologically advanced life forms, or 
that could ever develop technologically has a "watcher" that makes 
sure that no technology is ever developed.

Meanwhile, back on earth, someone(thing) has seeded the oceans with 
life forms known as Swarmers and Skimmers. The swarmers attack ships,
even supertankers, and sink them, destroying the world economic
system. The skimmers are intelligent forms, and sound similar to
dolphins (but they aren't). They talk to survivors of shipwrecks who
somehow manage to live on the ocean without being eaten by swarmers.
The situation gets worse and soon the swarmers start moving onto the
land. This causes international tension, finally resulting in a
nuclear war. The swarmers take over the land and the skimmers and
humans chosen by the skimmers now live on the water. The earth gets
its own watcher, and earth is out of the picture.

The space lab tries tinkering with a watcher by trying to blow it up 
with their fusion drive. The watcher lashes out with something 
similar, but more powerful than, a solar flare. The ramscoop is burned
out, and the spaceship is stuck in space.

DAdler

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 84 12:10:21-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more

>Speaking of bad sf, this gives me an opportunity to voice a 
>dissenting opinion on Brin's "Startide Rising", another dog that, >to
use the words of Dorothy Parker, "should not be tossed lightly >aside,
but hurled with great force".  Probably the worst attempt at 
>depicting aliens that has appeared in many years. Second only to 
>Gene Wolfe in the bad writing catagory.

I haven't read Brin yet, but having listened to him at Baycon, I am 
looking forward to it. Also, I don't know how you can consider Gene 
Wolfe a bad writer. It looks like we simply disagree on what makes 
writing good or bad (which makes neither of us right or wrong, just 
different). I seem to like everything you don't, which is why they 
publish such a variety of books these days. Somewhere out there, every
book you consider trash has someone who likes it. It may only be the
author or editor or publisher, but that person exists.

>From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach 
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today?
                                Go, Lemmings, Go!

<I'll give up my quote of the week when YOU give up those pretty 
pictures!> I'm not worried. I gave myself up for dead before we 
started.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 84 19:14:01-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2a!argo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Flaming at Heinlein

        WHAT!!! "I will fear no evil" will last?!!!  That has got to
be one of the worst books I have ever read, and as I've read a good
deal of Heinlein's other works, that's saying something.  I
thoroughly enjoyed about the first 50 pages of this book, up until
Johann Smith became Joan, at which point it degenerated into, uh ...
well, I can't think what it became, but certainly not a good book.
        One thing I have noticed about Heinlein is his absolute
inability to handle anticlimax.  For that matter, he doesn't do an
especially good job with the climax either, but it is his
ridiculously long and boring anticlimaxes that truly stand out.
        To give him his due, what very little he deserves, I have
found some of his short stories have hit the lower bounds of
mediocrity, and one or two actually approach decency, but that is as
far as I will go.

                                        Contact has been made,
                                                Andrew Garrett

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 19:39:27 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Spacetime for Springers

     Was written by Fritz Leiber. There are at least two other
Gummitch stories that I know of: one in The Book Of Fritz Leiber ( I
can't remember the title of the story), and one in the most recent
Anniversary issue of Fantasy and Science Fiction, titled (I believe)
"Cat Hotel". Gummitch is now mentor to a kitten named Psycho.

bye
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 84 11:39:48-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Flaming at Heinlein

        I can't knock the author who introduced me to all of the
wonders of science fiction. While I could try to defend him against
his many critics, I would rather point to an essay entitled "Rah,
Rah, R.A.H" by Spider Robinson. I have forgotten where it was first
published, but it is contained in the second Callahan's book, and is
an excellent defense of both the man and the author.

                                        eric
                                        ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 84 5:54:46-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Title Request

  Can anyone give me the titles of additional works by the
following authors?
1)'Doc' Smith  I have read the: Lensman series, the Skylark
                                series, the Subspace series.
2)l. Ron Hubbard  I have only read Battlefield Earth.  Any other
                    good ones by him?

  Thanks in advance,

Ken Varnum
 (..decvax!dartvax!kenv)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 84 00:02:26 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: obscure sf films

As a footnote to the discussion of "best" sf films, I'd like to
mention a couple that may not be all that good, but are of some
interest and don't get shown much ("Dark Star" is playing on every
street corner, by comparison).  If you know they exist, you'll be
less likely to miss their rare appearances.

There's a little known Soviet sf film called "To the Stars By Hard
Ways" (it sounds a lot better in Latin).  It was apparently
someone's idea of the Soviet answer to "Star Wars".  Better they
hadn't heard the question.  A Soviet space crew discovers a crippled
space ship with one survivor inside.  This survivor is in suspended
animation of some kind, which is finally broken.  World scientists
discover some interesting things about her, and eventually find out
where she came from.  It's a planet being threatened by ecological
disaster brought on by pollution.  The generous Earthmen send off a
ship to investigate, discover that it's indeed true, and fight a
final action involving large quantities of slimey goo.  I can't
really recommend it on any grounds, but it's sort of interesting
that the Soviets are wasting their time on this kind of trash.
(There is a long history of Soviet sf film.  A while back I saw a
Soviet sf/allegory film from the silent era, called "Aellia", or
something like that.  Well, it had interesting costumes, at least.)

"Things to Come" is a fairly good sf film based on H. G. Wells
novel.  It was made in the 1930s, in England, and has been mentioned
briefly on the list.  Here's your chance to see the young Ralph
Richardson as a militaristic warlord.  The effects are extremely
good, for the time.  See London terror bombed, five years before
World War II.

And let us not forget "Metropolis", Fritz Lang's silent classic of
an oppressive future society.  Admittedly, it looks rather
melodramatic (OK, extremely melodramatic) today.  None the less, the
sets are fantastic and the scenes of the creation of the robot are
still impressive.

I have heard of, but not seen, a 1930s Hollywood film about digging
a transatlantic tunnel.  I would appreciate hearing from anyone who
has actually seen it.

There are a few other early Hollywood SF films, including a musical,
of all things.  Most of them are curiousities, true, but they show
that science fiction did not first enter film in the 1950s, as some
believe.
                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 15:19:02-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf)

        The planet called "The Moon of Endor" is indeed a moon,
    a satelite of another planet, called "Endor".  However, Endor
    itself was blown to bits in some ancient cataclysm leaving the
    moon orbiting empty space.  I've pointed this out before, but
    here it is again.

                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  6 Feb 1984 18:57:28-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!regina!augeri@Shasta
Subject: Letter to the Editor

Someone* in SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 9 issue 22 aroused my curiosity
about who produced/directed the movie The Lathe of Heaven.  Here for
the sake of posterity are some facts on the movie:

Produced and Directed by David Loxton and Fred Barzyk

Teleplay by Roger E. Swaybill and Diane English based on the novel
by Ursula K. LeGuin

Main characters:
  George Orr played by Bruce Davison
  Dr. William Haber played by Kevin Conway
  Heather Lelache played by Margaret Avery

* The someone was:
    From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax I am a new
subscriber to the Digest and I don't yet know how to extract a
user's name from the ARPA net gibberish that appears in a From:
heading.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 84 13:20:03-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!digi-g!jel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven

Though I had the (perhaps) misfortune of seeing the movie first and
reading the book second, I thought that the dreams in the movie were
more creative and symbolic than those in the book.  Whoever devised
the dreams of the movie is to be congratulated.

John Lind, DigiGraphic Systems Corp.
           10273 Yellow Circle Drive
           Mpls MN 55343
news, mail: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!digi-g!jel
USnail    : 1515 Brook Ave SE, Mpls MN  55414

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 1984 1612-PST
Subject: 1984 Space Lectures
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>
To: bboard@USC-ISIF, bboard@USC-ECL, space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC

This year, the Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization and Settlement (OASIS/L5) will be presenting a
monthly lecture series entitled "Beyond 1984--Visions of the
Future."  The first of these lectures will be:

                Space and the Nuclear Arms Race

                        Dr. J. Peter Vajk
            (Author of "Doomsday has been Cancelled")

The lecture will begin at 7:00 pm on Saturday, Feb. 15 at the
California Museum of Science and Industry's Kinsey Auditorium.
Admission is $2.00 for OASIS/L5 members and students and $3.00 for
all others.

Future lectures in the series include:

Ray Bradbury, March 27, at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory
George Butler, April 28, back at the Kinsey Auditorium on Space
     Stations
Kraft Ehricke, May 19, at Rockwell International's DEI room

Gene Roddenberry, July 17, at the Glendale High School Auditorium,
     as a part of the Spaceweek celebration honoring the 15th
     anniversary of the first moon landing.  (NOTE: For the
     Roddenberry lecture, advanced purchase of tickets will be
     required).

The OASIS/L5 phone machine is at (213)374-1381.

In my opinion, the lecturers for this series are among the best
and most interesting speakers on Space.  Tell your friends.

                                Alan (Katz@ISIF)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Feb 84 18:46:30 PST
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Munchausen

        He is NOT german, Baron Von Munchausen is Czech.

                Joe Kalash
                (1/4 czech)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 84 1:26:36-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Old-Time Religion - (nf)

  A question to anybody on the net.  As a member of the Midrealm
(relatively new member) I have heard unofficial history about the
"Gods of Northwoods."  Is that one verse a reference to them?

                             Nigel the Voluminous

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #30
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Feb 84 1338-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:
          Books - Boucher (2 msgs) & Harrison & Heinlein,
          Films - The Last Wave & The First Spaceship on Venus,
          Television - The Apple Commercial & Dr. Who (2 msgs) &
                  The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1984 19:03:29-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: ROCKET TO THE MORGUE

   Is by Anthony Boucher, after whom Bouchercon (annual mystery fans
convention) is named. (I was passed a copy by my mother, who skirts
SF but is an avid mystery fan.) My first guess would have been that
it was written and set in the 30's, but I recall a Heinlein
simulacrum (all of the authors' names are disguised, sometimes with
real pseudonyms (e.g. Don Stuart, which Campbell used)) so I'd have
to say 40's.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Feb 1984 05:23:28-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta
Subject: ROCKET TO THE MORGUE

        Suford! I'm shocked! Surely you know that ROCKET TO THE
MORGUE was written by Anthony Boucher, not Bob Tucker!

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Feb 1984 11:41:14-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: "Answers " to Starship Troopers

Bill, The Galactic Hero by Harry Harrison is a scene by scene reply
to and parody of Starship Troopers.  The Forever War is as much a
"reply" to Vietnam as it is to Heinlein.  Haldeman still has some
shrapnel from that, which is why The Forever War isn't as funny as
Bill, the Galactic Hero.

When it first came out, Bill, the Galactic Hero was very funny.  In
the meantime the world has started to look like Harrison's parody
universe here and there...

                            Suford

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 84 4:04:43-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more - (nf)

Let's hear it for "Friday"! I was beginning to worry about him after
"The Number of the Beast" faded into unintelligibility (started
fine, then got weeeiiirrrddd), but "Friday" brings back the good old
secret agent stuff of "Gulf" and "The Puppet Masters" (updated to
scary plausibility, if you've been reading the noises about
seccesion lately, see Naisbitt's "Megatrends").

My one gripe is that the ending is just a bit lame. But that sudden
cut away from the action to a look back from a future quieter time
in the lives of the characters is something RAH has used/abused more
than once (see "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", "Glory Road", and
even "Puppet Masters", for examples), neh?

[Hmm.. was the mishmash at the end of T#otB the beginning of the
trend we've seen with Niven ("Engineers") and Asimov ("Foundation's
Edge" and "Robots of Dawn") on the part of authors to try and make
ALL of their various plot lines come together? Is T#otB a satire,
then? I mean, just this morning Lazarus was complaining to me that R
Daneel was probably really a Pak protector, or vice-versa, and knew
nothing of psycho-history beyond what Jorj X. McKie had brought back
from Dosadi.]

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp,
        101 Twin Dolphins Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Feb 84 13:38:29 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: "The Last Wave"

"The Last Wave" was directed by Peter Weir, an Australian.  It came
out in the mid 1970s (American release 1978, at a guess), and
starred Richard Chamberlain and Gulpilil, an aborigine.  Weir also
directed "Picnic at Hanging Rock", a mystery/period piece with
occult overtones, concerning a group of Victorian school girls who
disappear on a mysterious Australian mountain.  If you liked "The
Last Wave", you'll probably also like "Picnic at Hanging Rock".  His
other films include "Gallipoli", which dealt with an ill fated WWI
expidition, and recently "The Year of Living Dangerously", about the
fall of the Sukarno regime in Indonesia during the early 60s.

                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 84 20:11:01 PST (Wednesday)
From: LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: The First Spaceship on Venus--Slight SPOILER

        A classic 1960 S.F. movie which is quite often overlooked is
"The First Spaceship on Venus".  While this film is often dismissed
(my "Guide to T.V. Movies" gives it 1 1/2 stars out of 4), it is
actually a neglected masterpiece.  In this film, a group of
scientists flies to Venus, where they find the remains of an
ancient, dead, civilization.  Those scenes on Venus inside the ruins
of this civilization are a surrealistic masterpiece.  Highlights
include the scenes where the astronauts are chased up the spiral
ramp-like building by the flowing lava, the scenes inside the green
and glowing pit ( a brain? a computer?) on the planet, and the
bizzare reversal of the ending.  Like "Dark Star", this is a low
budget cheapy, and has some real flaws that are hard to overlook.
But for capturing the bizzare and numinous essence of surrealism on
screen, this movie cannot be equaled!

Anyone else remember this one?

Lawrence <LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC>

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Feb 1984 15:12:58-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!sunfun!stewart@Shasta
Subject: submission for SFL Digest

A while back, someone asked what was on the shirt the runner wore in
the Apple "1984" video.  Adweek says that shirt bears the Macintosh
logo.  The article also points out some things already mentioned in
sfl, like Big Brother = IBM ("It's not too pedantic to point out
that the pervading color in Big Brother's den is blue, as in IBM
blue.").  Adweek also says Apple spent $800k on Super Bowl airtime,
$400k on production, hired 200 extras, and built a seven story set
in England.  Check the January 30 issue for more...

        John Stewart

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Feb 1984 21:58:41-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!coors!vickrey@Shasta

TARGET is a British publisher.  They have been printing Dr Who
novelizations for about 10 years, and there are over 80 in print.
As far as I can tell, they follow the shows fairly closely.
Sometimes they are a little better, and sometimes a little worse.
The two-volume program guide is one book of plot synopses (my
edition only covers the first 18 seasons) and a cross-reference of
characters, places, things, and stuff.  It is extensive, but not
complete (at least I failed to find a few of the things I looked
up).

Up until about a year ago these books were very difficult to get in
the States.  SF bookstores usually carried a very limited number and
you could sometimes pick them up in the Dealer's Rooms at cons.  The
average price was usually three to four dollars.  With the current
popularity the show now enjoys mainstream bookstores are beginning
to carry more.

        "Star Wars is adolescent nonsense; Close Encounters is
         obscurantist drivel; Star Trek can turn your brains to
         puree of bat guano; and the greatest science fiction
         series of all time is Doctor Who!  And I'll take you
         all on, one-by-one or all in a bunch to back it up!"

This is not my opinion!  In 1979, Pinnacle Books, based in Los
Angeles, published 10 of the novelizations virtually intact.  Harlan
Ellison wrote one introduction for all 10 books, from which the
above is extracted.  Ellison seems to unashamedly, unabashedly,
unapologetically LIKE Dr Who; the introduction is good reading.

"This type's not really my forte..."
susan

------------------------------

Date: 8 February 1984 0753-est
From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Dr Who in Philadelphia

I am behind about 1 week in reading past issues...been out of town.
Just received a note from the Dr Who fan club that Tom Baker will be
in Philadelphia on 11 & 12 Feb.  It is presented by Creation and
billed as the Philadelphia Doctor Who Convention.  Anyone interested
in further info let me know.  If there is enough interest, I suppose
it could be posted to the bulletin board!?
                             Roz

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  8 Feb 1984 07:19:01-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!mother!hughes (Gary Hughes - CSSE/MicroVMS)
From: <decwrl!rhea!mother!hughes@Shasta>
Subject: Dr. Who books

The Dr. Who books are published in the UK by Target and vary
considerably in quality. They are adaptations from the original
stories and in most cases should NOT be considered definitive.
Occasionally the author is unable to resist the temptation to
embelish, adding extraneous 'non-facts'.

Some are written by the original scriptwriters and are generally
quite good (although they don't take long to read). Several have
been written by Ian Marter who played Harry Sullivan during the
Baker period. I started to read them to fill in gaps where stories
were banned in Australia by the censors (or more precisely given a
rating that did not permit them to be shown during the kid-vid
hours). The ABC (the antipodean BBC) used to screen Dr. Who at the
same time as the commericial networks' news programs and no one
seemed too concerned about the effects of that on the kiddies.

Getting back to the books - Target started publishing during the
Baker period, about the same time as Dr. Who started appearing on US
TV. Recently they have been publishing earlier stories from the
Hartnell and Troughton series as well as several from each of the
current series.

The two guidebooks are interesting but contain a lot of detail
errors. For episode guides etc. you would be advised to obtain
fanzines and other publications from the various Dr. Who fan clubs.
Occasionally, the BBC publishes Dr. Who material. The most recent
was a color magasine in conjunction with the anniversary special
(The Five Doctors) which was on sale in bookshops in Australia.

I have seen some original scripts, but I have no idea whether they
were obtained by fair means or foul. Does anyone out there know if
such things can be purchased?

Lastly a trivia question on Dr. Who books (I do not know the answer
to this). A long time back, several Dr. Who books were published in
hardback.  I read them about 1965, I guess. They were:
        Dr. Who and the Daleks
        Dr. Who and the Crusaders
        Dr. Who and the Zarbi
Does anyone know who the publishers were? I have heard that they
have since been reprinted by Target but have not verified it myself.

Gary Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Feb 1984 11:47:29-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: Lathe of Heaven

Mark Mallet's problem is that HE is confused.  The ideas presented
in Lathe of Heaven are genuinely confusing.  Le Guin has no need to
put on a pretentious intellectual pose, the problem of reality is a
genuine problem.  I should probably reread the story and see the
movie again before I say this but I BELIEVE that the story LEAVES IT
UP TO THE reader/viewer whether to interpret the whole business as a
dream in one or more minds in Seattle after the bomb drops.

The big problem in the movie was how to distinguish the "dream"
sequences from the "real" sequences.  They finally decided that
since the idea was that the participants couldn't distinguish which
was which (at least until afterwards), and any "effect" they could
use would be hokey and distracting, they decided NOT TO DISTINGUISH
THEM.  This does make the film confusing.

The point of the story, however, is that distinguishing between
reality and dream IS confusing and sometimes not possible.  Perhaps
Mallett is really objecting to the chaos this kind of idea does to
the PLOT.  Depending on what you think was REAL, you get a different
plot:

The bomb dropped on Seattle and destroyed everybody there.

The bomb dropped on Seattle and two survivors changed history
because their minds WOULD NOT accept this horrible thing.

The bomb dropped on Seattle and one survivor made such a paradoxical
mess out of time with the mental abilities this created in another
survivor, that these good guy aliens had to come and straighten it
all out.

Et cetera.

What do YOU think happened?
                                - Suford

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 8:05:09-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Lathe of Heaven movie -- too bad - (nf)

Some years ago, when Roger Duffey (where have you gone, Roger?) was
moderating sf-lovers and it was part of the ARPAnet (the only way
someone on the UUCPnet could get to it was through a system at
Berkeley), I mentioned that the Lathe of Heaven reminded me of an H.
G. Wells story called The Man Who Could Work Miracles.  The Wells
story was about a man who could make things happen just by wishing
them.  He finally tries to duplicate the feat in the book of Joshua
(making the sun stand still in the sky) but forgets to take into
account the law of conservation of angular momentum and manages to
remove earth's atmosphere and everything not literally nailed down.
He finally wishes he were back at the point before he realized he
had this power and that he never discovers it.  Didn't Roger Zelazny
also write a short story along these same general lines?

                                John Hobson
                                AT&T Bell Labs
                                Naperville, IL
                                (312) 979-0193
                                ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #31
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Feb 84 1510-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:
                Books - Herbert & Lafferty & Wolfe &
                        Book Reviews,
                Films - Authors and Films & Ridley Scott & 
                        Dark Star & Star Wars,
                Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & 
                        The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Fanspeak & Lecture Correction &
                        FTL and Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1984 18:14:28-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
To: rtaylor@radc-multics
Subject: THE SANTAROGA BARRIER

Since nobody else seems to have taken this up, I'll see if I can
explain why this book doesn't belong on the trash heap.

Despite his rabid conservatism, Frank Herbert is distinctly
interested in drugs and their effects on comprehension (perhaps his
conservatism is what keeps DUNE from being FLOW MY TEARS, THE
HARKONNEN SAID). The notion of a drug that will somehow make the
scales fall from one's opponents eyes is a seductive one; Brunner's
THE STONE THAT NEVER CAME DOWN is one of the better combinations of
story and argument on this; Herbert works in a different frame
(comprehension of time) in DUNE, but there's a distinct similarity
between the driving factors of tSB and tStNCD (note Brunner's
analogizing of VC to the (argued) pep-pill effect of the
non-conversion of urea in [primates], while the Santarogans describe
jaspers as "consciousness fuel").

tSB, although it is written in third-person singular (everything
from the viewpoint of Gilbert Dassein), does not exist primarily for
a simple linear plot (first he did this, then that, and now he's
doing the other) but for the reactions of Dassein (and of the other
characters to him) as he tries to understand jaspers without taking
significant doses of it. In tStNCD the decision on whether to spread
the drug is begun in reason and made in fright, but there's never a
serious suggestion that the VC is not a good thing, while Herbert
from the beginning gives a more balanced view (it's almost a
libertarian one, in that the most sinister thing is the way the
Santarogans seem to unite and lose their individualities in
confronting the outside world, while their refusal to be swept into
the commercial orbits of various moneyed interests (although it's
the reason Dassein is there) is seen as praiseworthy---which is odd
because Herbert, when he spoke at Boskone XVI, seemed more like a
doctrinaire conservative)).

Certainly there are plenty of things happening---Dassein seems
accident-prone---but the happenings aren't there to advance the plot
but to heighten the tension as Dassein tries to balance the rational
and passional desirability of Santaroga (personified by Dr. Sorge
and his daughter Jenny respectively?) against its sinister
qualities. It could be argued that the inexplicable happenings make
tSB a fictional setting of a ghost story but the apparent
supernaturalism is simply lack of understanding (e.g., Dassein is
invited by Dr. Sorge to expand S's research on the quantifiable
neurological effects of jaspers). I won't argue that tSB is a "great
novel" (however you want to define such) but it is not as pedestrian
as space opera (and its contemporaries) and does not have the
conspicuous flaws or difficulties of many of the works that here
have been praised and damned, both vigorously.

Two final notes: tSB was serialized around 1967 and may have been
written significantly earlier; there's a late-50's/early-60's feel
to it, more obvious than in many space-oriented stories (tolerance
of interracial marriage is marveled at, Gilbert and Jenny barely get
to the handholding stage outside of a particularly stagey moment),
which may put off current readers. And I don't know whether Herbert
deliberately gave his lead a name similar to Gilbert Gosseyn, the
hero of THE WORLD OF NULL-A, but it's certainly possible considering
how much they both deal with a quantum change in mental abilities
(thought tSB is a far better book).

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 17:08:23-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!bbncca!keesan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Raphael Aloysius Lafferty

    What is Lafferty up to these days?  Writing.  I'm currently in
the middle of "Annals of Klepsis" (Ace, August 1983), which is
run-of-the-mill Lafferty, which means nothing to you unless you've
read other Lafferty.  I think he has something out in hardcover
and/or limited edition since then, but no names come into my head.

                                Morris M. Keesan
                                {decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!keesan
                                keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 18:26:49-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: A personal Wolfe for the Northeast.

    Those of you in the northeast may be interested in the
following: I read in Analog today that Gene Wolfe will be the "Guest
of Honor" at the next sf convention in Boston on the 17-19 of
February. ( As I type this, two weekends away. ) The address for
more information is:

Boskone XXI
NESFA Inc.
Box G
MIT Branch PO
Cambridge, Ma. 02139.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 84 12:51:41-PST (Tue)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dragons of Light/ Many Colored Land

A couple of quick reviews of things that have made it through my
inbox:

Dragons of Light, anthology edited by Orson Scott Card (Ace 2.95)
Rating: 3.5 on a scale of 5 (more if you like dragons)

This is an anthology of stories which have the dragon as the
continuing theme. Like most anthologies, it is uneven, some of the
stories are quite good (my favorite was Ice Dragon by G.R.R.Martin,
followed closely by 'The George Business' by Zelazny and 'A Drama of
Dragons' by Craig Shaw Gardner). There are a number of lesser
stories as well, and some that look like the dragon was an
afterthought for the sale (this was especially apparent in 'One
Winter in Eden' by Michael Bishop). If you like stories about
dragons, this book is definitely for you (I also believe there is at
least one companion volume). If you don't, then this is a real
average anthology and you might or might not like it.

The Many-Colored Land by Julian May (DelRey, $2.95)
Rating: 1 on the scale of 5

I've had the pleasure of talking with Julian May at a number of
conventions now, and I don't believe I've talked to a more charming
SF author (actually, person in general) in a long time. It was with
great expectations that I finally got through my in-pile to the
Julian May book.  *sigh* *alack* *alas* I never finished it. To tell
you the truth, I don't know that I ever started it. The first 120
pages are poorly put together (and entirely too volumous)
introductory material, setting up the history and people for the
story to come. By the time I hit page 150, she had started the
story, but I had simply lost interest in things. She is still a
charming woman, but some editor should have mentioned that those 120
pages of introductory material could have fit very nicely into about
20 pages.  Maybe in a month or so I'll start from page 121 (where
the book should have started) and see if it gets any better.

chuq
>From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui    Have you hugged your Pooh today?
                                Go, Lemmings, Go!

<I'll give up my quote of the week when YOU give up those pretty
pictures!>

Everyone wants to make love to their mother, Harold. What I can't
understand is why you want to make love to your grandmother!
                                        - Harold and Maude
Camelot! Camelot! Camelot!
It's only a model...
Shhh!

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 11:07:36-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: authors and films

Didn't Asimov write Fantastic Voyage?  While this is not an SF
movie, Harlan Ellison wrote the screenplay for The Carpetbaggers (a
film which, if you have not seen it, you should keep it that way).

                                John Hobson
                                AT&T Bell Labs
                                Naperville, IL
                                (312) 979-0193
                                ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 84 19:32:54-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #23 - (nf)

Ridley Scott did so direct Blade Runner.  Tony Scott directed only
one film, The Hunger.  They both started directing commercials.
Ridley Scott did the highly-stylized, effects-laden Channel no.
#xxfoo ad with the airplane shadow ascending the Transamerica
Pyramid, accompanied by "I don't want to set the world on fire".

        Brendan Eich
        uiucdcs!eich

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 84 20:08:35-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Favourite SF Movies - (nf)

Yes, the dialogue with the bomb was good. The MOVIE was good. It
should definitely be rated with the best.

        "Root for the bomb!"
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 84 16:49:48-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!isrnix!jec @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf)

        I was under the impression that Endor was the moon of
Centuri since the phrase "Centuri Moon" is used and "Centuri" was
the planet that exploded or otherwise ceased to exist.

                                James Conley
                                Indiana University
                                ...iuvax!isrnix!jec

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 Feb 84 09:44:00-MST
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who - Good-bye Tardis

     From a newspaper article by Charles Catchpole from England:

    "...Dr. Who's famous police box time machine is set to fade away
forever.  BBC chiefs plan to axe the battered blue box--which has
housed the Tardis for 20 years--because young viewers do not know
what it is supposed to be.  Dr. Who producer John Nathan-Turner said
yesterday: "Police boxes are a thing of the past.  I think the last
one in England went about four years ago and a whole generation of
children has grown up believing the box to be a Tardis and nothing
else."
   He plans to phase out the police box during the next series of
Dr. Who..."

From the article it looks like the blue police box shape for the
Tardis will disappear sometime in 1985.  For those unfamiliar with
English terminology -- a series in England is the same as one TV
season in the U.S.
                                  Michi Wada

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 84 20:08:51-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Doctor' Who - (nf)

The Good Doctor (no, the other good doctor hasn't trademarked that
phrase yet), being a time lord, has is degree in horology. It was
issued to him by The Acadamy. He got through in the 51'st
percentile, on his second try.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 84 20:09:07-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Lathe of Heaven movie -- too bad - (nf)

    As LeGuinn said: [and I quote only from memory]

    If you grant me this one preposterous premise -- that this man's
dreams can change reality -- I'll try to make the rest as real and
believable as possible.

        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

In that case, she failed. The reason I said <uncomplimentary> about
the book was that I didn't like it. Watching people flail around for
far too many pages, trying to find a solution that was obvious two
pages after the problem was stated, does NOT make a good book. The
only reason I waded through the rest of it was in hopes that LeGuinn
had a suprise in store.  I lost.

        "Clem Clone: back to the shadows again!"
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 5:47:05-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxh!stevens @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Lathe of Heaven movie -- too bad - (nf)

>   In that case, she failed. The reason I said <uncomplimentary>
>   about the book was that I didn't like it. Watching people flail
>   around for far too many pages, trying to find a solution that
>   was obvious two pages after the problem was stated, does NOT
>   make a good book. The only reason I waded through the rest of it
>   was in hopes that LeGuin had a surprise in store.  I lost.

You thought the point of the story was to find a solution??

Scott Stevens
AT&T Consumer Products
Indianapolis, Indiana, USA
UUCP: inuxh!stevens

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1984 19:07:37-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
To: cca!decvax!decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@CCA-UNIX
Subject: fanspeak

"the usual" tends to include trade, as well as locs (Letters of
Comment), and contribution of articles or artwork. . . .

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1984 1950-PST
Subject: Correction on lecture
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>
To: bboard@USC-ISIF, bboard@USC-ECL, space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC

The date for the Peter Vajk lecture SHOULD have read Feb. 25
(Saturday night) at 7:00 pm.  The rest of the dates are correct.
Sorry for the typo!

                                Alan

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 6:19:03-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FTL and time travel

Larry Niven has also dealt with this subject.  In *A World Out of
Time*, a man from the past is awakened from frozen sleep in another
body (hmmm -- time travel of another kind?).  In his future, he
finds that he is in the body of a criminal that must repay his debt
to the State.  They make him a starship pilot (rammer) and send him
out with a ship on a long mission to "seed" worlds for future life.
Well, he ends up stealing the ship and heading for the galactic core
-- but at one point he has to depend on his ship's computer, which
is intelligent.  The computer puts him into an FTL course around the
black hole at the core (you have to understand a bit about the
cosmology of Niven's galaxy for this) and they wind up back on earth
a few million years later than when he left.  Also, the computer
informs the pilot after the fact that they could have arrived home
only 70,000 years later had the orbit around the black hole been
changed slightly.

It's an interesting concept.

B.K. Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxs!okie

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 84 11:16:31-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FTL and time travel

Another author who made use of the time dialation in speeds close to
light was Poul Anderson in Tau Zero.

Ursula K. LeGuin, in several of her stories (The Left Hand of
Darkness and Semmlys'[sp?] Necklace, to name just two) has her NAFAL
(Nearly As Fast As Light) drive cause time dilations.  In fact, the
ending of Semmly's Necklace depends on it, and the fact that Semmly
has not aged very much during her voyage, while two generations have
passed on her world while she was gone.

                                John Hobson
                                AT&T Bell Labs
                                Naperville, IL
                                (312) 979-0193
                                ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #32
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Feb 84 0117-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 11 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:
            Books - Brin & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hubbard &
                    Niven & E.E. "Doc" Smith,
            Films - Fantastic Voyage (2 msgs) & 
                    The First Spaceship on Venus (2 msgs) &
                    2010 & A Trivia Question & Dune &
                    Tying Up Loose Ends,
            Miscellaneous - More Real Old Time Religion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 1984 16:16:56-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: aliens in STARTIDE RISING

Rather than flaming about who is a good or bad writer (personally I
don't find Wolfe interesting at novel length but enough people,
including the Boskone chair who's my regular bridge partner, do that
I don't argue the matter any more) I'd like to ask Pat Clancy
(publically, since I can't decipher his usenet address usefully)
just what he considers a believable alien? Others with strong
opinions are invited to chime in.
   I'll start with my own opinion: the aliens in STARTIDE RISING are
entirely plausible---not only plausible, but realistically and
distinguishably varied despite the fact that most of them are
presented only in brief sketches.  Some of them may seem less than
three-dimensional, but remember that they are mostly fanatics,
mostly being presented under conditions of considerable stress,
which tends to cause many facets of personality to disappear in a
general haze of aggression. Maybe you're simply offended by the
thought of mankind not even being considered an equal by the aliens?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 84 19:43:44 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Robert Heinlein- a supportive flame!

     Thank you, Rob Warnock! I was beginning to think that all other
Heinlein fans were willing to stick their head in the sand and let
others disseminate their own opinion, no matter how wrong it is. The
Number of the Beast is entirely a parody of Heinlein himself! The
last chapter is a parody of Science Fiction conventions in general,
with almost all of the people there being a character from one of
his books. I got sort of irritated when Lazarus showed up, it seemed
a real cop-out, but it was really the only way to get him into the
convention.....if he wasn't running it, he wouldn't have bothered to
show up.

     Spider Robinson's essay was first printed, I believe, as a
review of T#otB for whatever magazine he was/is doing book reviews
for. In his book, Expanded Universe, Heinlein himself says that the
philosophies espoused in his books do not necessarily have anything
to do with his own personal philosophies. As far as I can tell, his
main philosophy is Homo Sapiens Uber Alles! Since most of his books
are set in a situation where people are trying to survive in a
hostile environment, obviously there must be more humans to
accomplish this, which means pregnant women, who are therefore
helping in the holy cause of survival. This is the only part of his
books that I gag on, since I don't see anything great in being
preggie. However, I am willing to concede that a man may find this
extraordinarily fascinating, especially one who has lived through a
war when more bodies were needed.

In any case, I think Friday could have been better; the return to
the style of his juvenile books left it sort of dry. It is not my
favorite by him; but it isn't the worst by far. Whatever bouts of
senility he has had, and there have been some, due to disease and
medication, neither Friday nor The Number of the Beast are the
products thereof.

Any flamers out there, please reply to me directly, but don't expect
me to reply; I don't have the ability to mail to the sundry nets.

RAH!RAH!RAH!
/amqueue
quint@ru-blue.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 1984 1702-PST
Subject: Heinlein
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

Robert Heinlein is an excellent writer and all of his books (except
the last two) are great.  Anyone who says otherwise is clearly
wrong, so there!!  (This is fact, not opinion).

                                Alan

PS  I hope my postion in this is not too ambiguous.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Feb 84 17:20:32 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

        As far as Hubbard is concerned, I don't think he ever wrote 
anything good, although his dianetics/scientology "non-fiction" is 
sometimes amusing.  On the other hand, if you liked "Battlefield 
Earth" for whatever reason, you might try "Ole Doc Methuselah", which
was published some time in the 70's by DAW.  It's a collection of
short stories from the pulps.  "Ole Doc" is a space doctor, of the
same archetype as Murray Leinster's "Med Series" or Nourse's "Star
Surgeon".  If you can manage to wade through the barely-competent
writing style, the stories present some small amount of plot interest,
of probably average quality for the time (which, considering the pulps
of the 30's & 40's is not saying much for them, keeping Sturgeon's Law
in mind).

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 84 17:21:38 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: mishmash
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@parc-maxc.arpa>

"...was the mishmash at the end of T#otB the beginning of the trend
we've seen with Niven ("Engineers") and Asimov ("Foundation's Edge"
and "Robots of Dawn") on the part of authors to try and make ALL of
their various plot lines come together?"

Actually, the Niven books (commonly called the Known Space series),
were all tied together long before Ringworld Engineers came out.  In
a note in another book, Niven explains why the Pak weren't
discovered to be the engineers in the first book.

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Feb 84 17:20:32 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: E.E. "Doc" Smith

        In addition to the books you mention, you might also try "The
Spacehounds of IPC" by Smith, which is roughly the same kind of space
opera as the rest of his work.  As far as I know it's not part of any
series.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 84 16:08:57 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #31

Asimov wrote only the novelization of Fantastic Voyage.  He had
nothing at all to do with the creation of the film.  In fact, he
tried to convince the powers that were that he was the wrong person
to do the novelization, but when he suggested they give the job to
someone else (Ted Sturgeon?), his motives were considered suspect,
and he ended up with the job.  As I recall, one of the reasons he
didn't want to do the novelization was that he knew people would end
up believing that he had written the original story for the movie.
I forget where I read all of this -- probably in Isaac's
autobiography.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Feb 1984 15:03:14-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: Fantastic Voyage

No Isaac Asimov did NOT write Fantastic Voyage.  He ONLY wrote the
novelization of the screenplay.  He said he did his best to retrieve
the obvious absurdities of the main premise of shrinking people, but
it was really hopeless.  Since the producers of the movie seem to
have contributed to the mistaken impression that Isaac DID write the
movie, it's easy to form that impression.

                              - Suford

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 84 14:17:12 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: The First Spaceship on Venus--Slight SPOILER
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA>

I too remember that movie, and was also impressed by the
surrealistic sets and effects. The colorful, swirling gas/clouds in
the atmosphere added to the wierd mood. It really made you feel that
you were in a very alien place, as opposed to American SF which
usually takes place in a rocky canyon somewhere in L.A., or in a
boring (interior design) spaceship.

The story also had some mysteries (though not well done) to solve:
what happened to the inhabitants of the planet? What are those
strange cables running all over the place? What are these buildings
used for?

I think this was made in Italy, and was dubbed poorly, making it
difficult for many stations to show it seriously. Seems there have
been several Italian SF movies that have a definite style of special
effects, set design, and story. I remember one about a planet of
"vampires" attacking the crew of a ship one by one, and another of
an exploration of a planet (Venus?) in which the astronauts discover
a race of women, and are aided by a tall robot (who comes in handy
when the lava arrives). Anyone know more about them? Titles? Dates?

~Kevin

------------------------------

From: vortex!lauren at RAND-UNIX
Date: Thu, 9-Feb-84 14:25:02-PST
Subject: "First Spaceship on Venus"

Indeed, this film is an oft-overlooked classic.  Another such film
is "The Time Travelers" -- a 1965 production involving a group of
researchers who use a "time window" to enter the future.  Later they
return to "the present" via another window, but come back a little
"early" and get involved in a "time loop".  This is the only film
I've ever seen that actually tried to show the concept of
continuously looping time in a visual manner.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 84 15:00:15 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS>
Subject: "2010" film

The LA Times had an article about the film version of Clarke's
"2010" yesterday.  Most of it covered information already released,
but there were a couple of new items.  It started filming a few days
ago, and should be ready for next Christmas.  The budget is in the
neighborhood of $20 million.  Peter Hyams, the director, has made a
major, but unspecified, change in the plot to make the film "more
relevant".  Clarke seems unenthusiastic about the change, but didn't
comment at length.  Hyams claimed that he got Kubrick's blessing to
make the film (Stanley, by the way, just announced that his next
film will be about the Vietnam War; the title is "Full Metal
Jacket").  The stars are Roy Scheider, John Lithgow (the terrified
passenger in the only good episode from "The Twilight Zone: The
Movie"), and Bob Balaban, sure to be playing a Russian scientist,
given his physical appearance.
                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 84 10:42:19-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!jay @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: trivia question

This is really only a trivia question for those who have not seen
the film because anyone that has should recall the title
immediately.  With that in mind, today's trivia question is:

Name the one (I'm pretty sure of this) movie where in lieu of
opening credits, a voice lists the names and functions of all those
affiliated with the film.

Jay Elvove       ..!seismo!umcp-cs!jay

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Feb 1984 11:11:35-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch (Trivia: Name the first five members of
From: Baseball's Hall of Fame) <decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@Shasta>
Subject: Dune movie article

The February 14 issue of GLOBE (it's one of those National
Enquirer-type papers you can get at the checkout stands [I don't by
'em, my wife does...])  has a one-page layout on the Dune movie.
There is one large photo (what looks like a battle scene) and a
smaller photo (Sian Phillips and Francesca Annis) and a small
write-up.

The important points:

1) Being produced by Rafaella DeLaurentiis (daughter of Dino)
2) $50 million budget
3) Stars: Kyle MacLachlan (the "hero, Atreides")
          Jose Ferrer (the "wicked emperor Padisbah")
          Francesca Annis (the "hero's mother, who ages 200 years
          during the movie")
          Jurgen Prochnow ("father")
          Max Von Sydow ("a planetologist")
          Sting ("special appearance as Feyd-Rautha")
4) "The sandworms alone cost $2 million...They are actually 75 feet
   long"
5) "To create Arrakis, 200 men crawled three square miles on a
   desert location for two months to remove any living thing"
6) "The Fremen's blue eyes were a special challenge...Rafaella tried
   a dye in her eyes to test it and couldn't see for two days.
   Finally someone came up with the idea of doing a color
   touch-up...frame by frame by computer. It was time consuming and
   very expensive"
7) "If anything in this movie looked like it could be found on earth
   today, the producers got rid of it"

I present this with no assurance of its accuracy.


-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp
   Nashua, NH
   UUCP:  {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch
   ARPA:  decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@{Berkeley,SU-Shasta}

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 84 11:06:54-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Tying Up Loose Ends (Re: Indiana Jones, 2010, the Scott
Subject: brothers)

I think the reason that Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom appears
on the side of the video of Raiders is that there is a coming
attractions "trailer" either before or after the actual film on that
videotape. As far as I know, the sequel is still called "Indiana
Jones and the Temple of Doom", and it opens nationally on May 25.

Ridley Scott is definitely the director of "Blade Runner". Tony
Scott's first and only film so far is the film, "The Hunger". Also,
Ridley Scott's next film will be "Legends",some sort of Dark Ages
fantasy, with makeup and "creatures" by Rob Bottin, who did the
Thing in, of course, "The Thing".  Ridley Scott has also done some
American commercials, most notably, the Chanel No. 5 ones("share the
fantasy").

While on the subject of "Dune", I think it's scheduled for a Dec. 5
release.  Also, David Lynch's next film will be a fairly low-budget
"personal" film (a la Spielberg's E.T.) called "Ronnie Rocket".

For whoever wanted to know who directed "The Last Wave", it was
Peter Weir, whose most recent film was "The Year of Living
Dangerously".

Finally, "2010" will star Roy Scheider, John Lithgow, Bob Balaban
and Keir Dullea.

P.S. Where do I write to for input from Stephen King fans? No snide
comments, please. For those who are interested, "Firestarter" opens
nationally on May 11. Also, I just read in Publisher's Weekly that
Universal is in the process of acquiring the rights to the Stephen
King-Peter Straub collaberation, "The Talisman" (to be published in
Sept.), as a possible Steven Spielberg project!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 84 14:10:04 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley
Subject: more real old time religion

Let us do our thing for Eris
Goddess of the discord there is
Apple's golden, it's not ferrous
and that's good enough for me

Of the Old Ones, none is vaster
Even Cthulhu's not his master
I refer to the unspeakable ------*
and that's good enough for me

*  well, do YOU want to say it?

Leslie Schweitzer (HMC)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #33
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Feb 84 1313-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Feb 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:
                           Administrivia,
              Books - Haldeman & Hubbard & Lafferty &
                      McCaffrey & Smith,
              Films - "First Spaceship on Venus" & 
                      "Fire Maidens From Outer Space" & 
                      Star Wars & E.T.,
              Music - Song Query

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 84 14:13:46 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

At Boskone XXI (the Boston regional SF convention), there will be
a panel entitled "Tom Swift and his Electric Fanzine".  Several
members of the SFL community will be participating in it. However,
in consideration of SFL's sensitive nature, it is requested that
any of the SFL readership who might be there refrain from mentioning
SFL or the ARPAnet during the Q&A period.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 Feb 1984 11:54:09-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder (Wanted: A good five-cent nickel)
From: <decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder@Shasta>
Subject: Second the vote for Forever War

Just got onto SF-LOVERS, saw mention of Haldeman's Forever War as
antithesis to Heinlein's Starship Troopers.  Read ST first, so you
can laugh at all the infantile idealisms there while you are reading
FW.  Not that ST is bad, because it's sort of fun in a slambang way
(even the sociopolitical hogwash is part of the fun...), but FW
makes it look like a children's story.  Haldeman has his head
screwed on very straight.

For another equally good treat, read Haldeman's All My Sins
Remembered.  The surprise ending will rock you.

- Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder

------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 Feb 84 00:15:47-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Books by Smith & Hubbard

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hubbard's Earlier Books ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Somebody was asking about L. Ron Hubbard's novels (novellas?  
novelettes?) and collections from about 30 years ago--
     THE KINGSLAYER aka SEVEN STEPS TO THE ARBITER
     DEATH'S DEPUTY (with the above as FROM DEATH TO THE STARS)
     FEAR
     TYPEWRITER IN THE SKY
     THE ULTIMATE ADVENTURE
     FINAL BLACKOUT
     RETURN TO TOMORROW
     SLAVES OF SLEEP
     TRITON
     OLE DOC METHUSELAH

Whether they're "good" or not I can't say.  I especially like SF- 
medicals, so grabbed up that last one but found it so inadequate in 
comparison with not only much more recent ones by White and Nourse, 
but also its nearer contemporaries, Leinster's "Med Service" series, 
that I can't offer much hope.  It was so bad that if Hubbard's recent
book is even half-way good, I'd go along with the folks who doubt that
he wrote it.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 84 05:16:10 EST
From: Liz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Lafferty and McCaffrey

Run of the mill Lafferty is still better than the best output of most
of the writers I am reading these days.  I was not terribly impressed
by Klepsis...I went into it with high hopes, but I do not think
Lafferty is at his best in novels.

My library is STILL in storage...But Lafferty put out a collection 
titled One Thousand Grandmothers ( or it might have been One Hundred)
which should be on anyone who likes short stories shelf.  ( What
syntax?)

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 84 05:16:10 EST
From: Liz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Lafferty and McCaffrey

Did anyone notice the Locus interview where McCaffrey announced she 
had finished the second volume of the Dinosaur Series...Now to dig up
another copy of Dinosaur Planet ( I gave mine away about 5 moves ago).

liz//

------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 Feb 84 00:15:47-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Books by Smith & Hubbard

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Non-Lensman or Skylark Books by Doc Smith ^^^^^^^^

In addition to the Lensman and Skylark series, Smith had three 
"singletons": SUBSPACE EXPLORERS
              SPACEHOUNDS OF IPC
              THE GALAXY PRIMES

The "Family D'Alembert" series, by Smith "with Steve Goldin" are, with
the exception of the 1st, IMPERIAL STARS, all by Goldin.

Fairly recently, (?David A.) Kyle, an old-timer fan and friend of 
Smith has been writing continuations of the Lensmen series, each 
featuring a different one of the non-human 2nd Stage Lensmen.

The Goldin and Kyle books are not well regarded, but if you've read 
the "pure quill" stuff so often you practically know it by heart, yet
your appetite for more is insatiable, the imitations ARE better than
nothing at all.

------------------------------

From: vortex!lauren at RAND-UNIX
Date: Sat, 11-Feb-84 14:24:06-PST
Subject: "First Spaceship on Venus" and "Fire Maidens From Outer
Subject: Space"

Actually, "First Spaceship on Venus" was not Italian, it was 
German/Polish.  The original title was "Der Schweigende Stern" (The 
Silent Star).

---

The film that involved a group of Venus explorers who found a race of
women making sacrifices to a petrified dinosaur (this is the movie
with the robot that's helpful when the lava comes) was called "Fire
Maidens From Outer Space".  Made in 1956, it starred Anthony Dexter
(Basil Rathbone had a fairly minor supporting role).  It is frequently
considered to be one of the worst SF films ever made, though
personally I think it has an interesting "feel" that is unique and
keeps it from being a total loser.

--Lauren--

P.S.  At the end, the robot gets covered with lava and the women
      switch to worshipping the robot instead of the dinosaur!

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 84 20:12:23-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SW television rumor - (nf)

  I have heard a rumor that Star Wars will be broadcast on national
television (CBS, I think) sometime next month.  Can anyone
confirm/deny this rumor??
  Thanks in advance,
Ken Varnum
 (..decvax!dartvax!kenv)
/* ---------- */

I heard about a year ago that CBS was going to televise SW in Spring
1984.  (This was announced around the same time that the HBO
showings were announced.)

I guess that's what you heard, sorta.

        Jeff Bowles

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 February 1984, 08:59-PST
From: Harris Shiffman <Shiffman at SCH-GILA>
Subject: E.T.: Phone For A Second Opinion
To: INFO-COBOL at SCH-GILA, FUN at SCH-GILA

From the Los Angeles Times Calendar Section, 12 February 1984:

         E.T., You Should Have Phoned Home For A Second Opinion

     E.T could have sued for malpractice but he went home instead.

     Gentle, good and lovable E.T. didn't even contact a lawyer
after he almost died on this planet in 1982, but some medical
experts now think he probably had a good case against the doctors
who treated him in Steven Spielberg's "E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial".

     Seriously.  Real-life doctors are making a fuss over the type
of medical treatment E.T. received.  Some emergency-medicine
specialists think that doctors in the movie not only may have failed
to recognize that E.T. could have been suffering from a drug
overdose, but they apparently neglected a basic procedure that is
taught to first-year medical students.

     A cheeky debate on the subject has been carrying on for more
than a year in the letters column of the medical monthly Annals of
Emergency Medicine.  In the current issue, Dr. Alexander Lampone of
St. John's Hospital of Santa Monica - the actor/doctor who headed
the medical team that tended to the creature - defended his actions.
But he did indicate some uncertainly, noting, "Well, how do you know
what to give an alien from space?"

     If they had been sued by E.T., Lampone and his team certainly
would have had a novel defense - one not seen in the average
malpractice dispute.  They say that they did everything that their
colleagues claim they failed to do.  But it actually was director
Spielberg who endangered their professional reputation by editing
out many of the most important steps in the battle to save E.T.'s
life, they claim.

     It's an ancient lament in Hollywood that the actor's best
perfor- mance was left somewhere on the cutting-room floor.  But a
doctor's?

     Spielberg wasn't around to shed any light on any of these
allegations.  His office said that he was out of town and
unavailable.  "And frankly," a spokeswoman said, "on something like
this, I wouldn't have the faintest idea who to refer you to."

     Why all of this is relevant today is testimony more to the
glacial pace of medical-journal communication than to anything else.
But criticism of E.T.'s medical care has been quietly and slowly -
if facetiously - building.  It began in August, 1982, at a medical
symposium on rare poisoning cases, continued in the correspondence
columns of the medicine journal a year later and came to a head in
the current issue.

     The debate pits Lampone against a prominent local emergency
physician, Dr. Jonathan Wasserberger of the Charles R. Drew Medical
School, Dr. Richard Weisman, director of the New York City Poison
Control Center and a prominent expert in the field of toxicology,
and Dr. Gary Ordog, a colleage of Wasserberger's at Martin Luther
King General Hospital.

     E.T.'s physicians, say Wasserberger, Weisman and Ordog, made so
many mistakes when they tried to resuscitate the poor creature that
they almost killed him in the process.

     For one thing, the E.T. medical team failed to ask little
Elliot, his young human friend, just what the stricken creature had
been eating in the days before the attack.  If the doctors had
asked, Elliot probably would have told them that E.T. had liberally
consumed Coors beer and corn chips, a diet that almost certainly
resulted in a potentially catastrophic glucose deficiency.  Because
the doctors didn't ask, they never began emergency intravenous
therapy to correct the dangerous interruption in his blood-sugar
levels - whatever they normally should have been.

     Worse still, E.T.'s doctors completely overlooked the fact that
his pupils were constricted and his skin - if that's what you call
it - was turning bluish in the unmistakable first signs of
cyanosis,, a sure indication he wasn't getting enough oxygen.
Together, those symptoms should have warned E.T.'s physicians the
poor creature was a victim of a narcotic overdose.

     That doesn't mean E.T. was a junkie, the dissident doctors
quickly added.  E.T.'s bizarre physiognomy probably resulted in his
manufacturing massive amounts of opiate-like natural chemicals.
Humans do essentially the same thing on a much smaller scale, in the
manufacture of natural pain-relieving chemicals called endorphins.

     But E.T. probably produced such large quantities of natural
narco- tics that, when his body tried to compensate for the
psychological trauma of being abandoned on Earth, he essentially
overdosed himself.  His doctors missed that, though, and lost an
opportunity to pump him full of a substance called a narcotic
antagonist to ward off the potentially fatal effects of his
do-it-yourself drugs, the doctors charge.

     E.T.'s doctor joined the fray in the current issue, writing, "I
am pleased that our efforts did not go unnoticed by those with
knowledge to judge and evaluate the scene."

     Then, having dismissed virtually all of the deficiencies in
E.T.'s care by using the "Spielberg-cut-it-in-editing" scenario,
Lampone seems to conclude that it doesn't matter since the patient
survived anyway.

     Specifically, Lampone asserted that he and his colleagues did
give E.T. several doses of Nalaxone, a common narcotic antagonist.
And he said that, contrary to the allegations against him, little
Elliot, the boy's family and friends were all quizzed on E.T.'s
eating habits.  "You just have to assume that sometime during that
period (the scene when E.T.'s medical crisis occurs) we would have
taken a thorough history," Lampone said.

     "His heart arrested, and we were going to give him electrical
shocks, but if you shock someone with a crystalline skin, how do you
know you won't just crack them open?"  Besides, Lampone said, "you
can rest assured that E.T. received the very best care.  God was on
our side, and E.T. lives.  He'll be back.

     "Spielberg wouldn't settle for second best for his alien.
Spielberg is that kinda guy."

     It was at the 1982 International Symposium on Toxicology in
Aspen, Colorado, that Weisman and Dr. Lewis Goldfrank, one of
Weisman's colleagues at Bellevue Hospital, concluded that E.T.'s
bizarre "skin" color and tight restriction of his pupils fingered
him as a likely overdose victim.

     E.T. needed a narcotic antagonist, Weisman and Goldfrank
contended.  In fact, Weisman said, in recent research, the two New
York doctors have even come up with a dosage level - two milligrams
- in case any emergency room in the country finds itself with an
extraterrestrial as a patient.

     Months later, Wasserberger, a board-certified poison specialist
and assistant professor at Drew Medical School, expanded on the
original accusation.

     "Considering the way the case appeared to have been handled, I
would say E.T. is lucky to be alive," Wasserberger told Calendar.
"We have to realize that, in many ways, E.T. was like a child.  His
only nourishment appeared to have been Coors and corn chips, and
alcohol in a child is known to cause profound hypoglycemia (a
shortage of sugar in the blood).

     "The doctors should have at least found out what he'd been
eating for the last couple of days.  He looked like any wino they
wheel into the emergency room on Saturday night."

     Then, Wasserberger said, there is the matter of the overdose.
"You could tell his brain was producing inordinate amounts of
narcotics," he said.  "He was overly happy about his situation.  He
was a little blue, and his pupils were small."

     Wasserberger said that "if we had to take it at face value from
what they showed us on the screen, there was obvious malpractice."

     Unlike some internecine disputes in medicine, however, this one
appears unlikely to spill over into the courts, the public meetings
of some medical society or the back-room backbiting of the bars and
other places where doctors gather after work.  The diplomatic
Wasserberger read Lampone's explanation in the latest issue of the
journal and pronounced himself mollified - if not entirely satisfied
- with the cutting-room-floor claim.

     "He's a prominent physician at a major hospital here in town,"
Wasserberger said of Lampone, "and I will take him at his word."

------------------------------

Date: Sun 12 Feb 84 03:10:29-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: song query

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Name That Tune! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was cruising along the highway tonight and getting sleepy, so I
switched from the "easy listening" station to something pop and
contemporary.  A song came on, not too clearly, that must surely
have been one of the pop-songs-with-SF-relevance which were
discussed on SF-LOVERS a while back.  It seemed to have something to
do with spaceships, maybe the shuttle.  There was a 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
countdown (tho no blastoff type sound), with "floating" and maybe
"flying" in what was probably the chorus.  Can anyone identify this
for me?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #34
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 84 1607-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:
          Books - Heinlein & Smith & Wolfe & Cats in SF &
                  Consistency & Dragons & Computer SF in Analog & 
                  Preaching Authors & A Star Trek Question,
          Films - Fire Maidens of Outer Space & SF Movies &
                  Android & Star Wars,
          Television - SW Television Rumor & Green Hornet &
                  The Lathe of Heaven & Questor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 84 14:35:00-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!charlie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more

        Kettle Belly Baldwin was featured in only one other Heinlein
story that I know of, a neat little novella titled Gulf.  It was a
spy story where Kettle Belly was the leader of an underground group
of supermen.  Friday's parents (major gene donors) were two
characters in that story that died to save the Earth.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 16 Feb 1984 07:52:57-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm (Network Systems Group)
From: <decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm@Shasta>
Subject: One more by E.E. Smith

On the subject of books by E.E. Smith, Phd:

        There is one more I have seen that is not mentioned. It is
called "Masters of the Vortex".

Len Alanurm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 84 16:00:33 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin)

  I've been having a hard time finding Gene Wolfe's Operation Ares
(1970).  Is it novel or anthology?  Is it about anything in
particular?
  What was Wolfe's first book?
                                      Steve

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984 09:03:46-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga (Aron Insinga)
From: <decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga@Shasta>
Subject: cats in sf

There were a couple of cat characters in the novel "Beyond
Rejection" (Del Rey, 1980) by Justin Leiber.  (Well, they were cats
more or less.)
                                        - Aron Insinga

UUCP:   {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga
ARPA:   decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga@SU-Shasta

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 84 9:46:17-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!root @ Ucb-Vax
From: amber::chabot  (Lisa Chabot)
Subject: more harping on consistency

RE: The self-consistency of Deryni novels

I didn't think they were self-consistent.  On the first page of the
first book (published) I seem to remember two characters introduced
as being close friends for many years, yet, because the author
resorted to a weak literary device of a conversation to convey
information to the reader (but probably not between the
conversants), these two familiar friends then speak in an overly
formal manner about things that such close friends wouldn't need to
speak of.  One would think they'd rarely met.  Either that, or one
or both were insane.

I want all of you men (or boys) who spent your teens reading
Heinlein books to remember
                                We're all out to get you!!! ( :-) )
                                Lisa S. Chabot

UUCP:   ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot@{ Berkeley | SU-Shasta }
reality:   DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlboro, MA  01752
shadow: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!avalon!chabot

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 9:16:43-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!zeppo!infopro!dave @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dragons of Light/ Many Colored Land - (nf)

The titles DO mean plenty. "Dragons of Darkness", the followup
volume to "Dragons of Light", was chiefly populated by evil dragons
(of the Western variety) and other stories of a "dark" nature. The
editor, realizing how depressing these stories are, alternated them
with more cheerful ones to prevent suicides/unhappiness. This is my
interpretation, but read odd-numbered stories ONLY and you may find
yourself staring out the windows for hours or getting out the old
razor blade. The first book, aside from being more uplifting, had
generally better stories and is highly recommended.
        Another good book for dragons and their fans is "Tea with
the Black Dragon" by R.A. MacAvoy which also has a nonstupid
contemporary computer software subplot.

Dave Fiedler
{harpo,astrovax,philabs}!infopro!dave

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 83 0:21:06-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!onyx!dual!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!vic
From: e!keithl@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Computer SF in Analog

  I haven't seen anything lately from netter Arlan K. Andrews, but a
short story of his appears in the December 1983 "Analog" magazine
(available at a newstand near you).  The subject is electronically
submitted manuscripts, and automated editing/syntax checking taken
too far.  Good Stuff.
  At least 5 of the items in this issue were prepared on computers;
at least two under un*x (I wrote one too).
  Let's see, 2 Gbytes of disk at 8 cents a word...

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 2:28:07-PST (Fri)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Preachy authors continued.....

    I am sure that there are people out there who hate Heinlien,
because of his "right wing" (and sometimes libertarian) slants.

    However, I might note that Heinlein is hardly atypical in this
respect.  I have noticed that almost all authors try to fit their
own particular brand of politics into their stories, from The
Martian Way, up to 1984.

    What is really terrible is to see a once excellent author, like
Heinlein, go bad.  A little politics is fine, especially if it is
incorporated well into the plot line.  But when the author starts to
harrangue, that is where is becomes not worth reading.  There are
some authors that I buy just because they have written the story,
and I feel really ripped off when I start reading a real politicized
dog.

    The latest author who has fallen into this pit is Marion Zimmer
Bradley.  Her Darkover novels have always been written with a bit of
"feminine slant" (i.e. the plots center around: women forced to have
children, women rebelling against the sexist society they live in,
the cruelty of men, protagonists who are helpless in their fate,
woman/woman relationships, etc.), HOWEVER her latest novel Thendara
House really tears it.

    God what a suck novel.

    Instead of having the heroine try to choose between her husband,
and her honor -- or choose between the Terran or the Darkover
culture -- instead, she makes the husband become an absolute
caricature of MCPig'ism.  He is set up like a piece of cardboard.
He greedily lusts after her womb, and is generally so obnoxious it
is hard to believe that she would stay with him for more than 1
chapter.  The rest of the book is drooling self-analysis, stretching
a 2 chapter plot over 300 pages.

    I certainly hope that Ms. Bradley gets over her extremism.  I
know it can be done, even Heinlein has gotten a lot better with his
new book Friday.

    Steven Maurer

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 84 09:40:46 EST
From: Marla <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek question
Reply-to: Selinger@Ru-Blue

In "Star Trek, the New Voyages" (Volume One or Two, I forget), was
the story "Visit to a Strange Planet Revisited".  In it, Shatner,
Kelley and Nimoy suddenly find themselves aboard the *real*
Enterprise (special FX and all) and must play their roles for real,
while trying to find a way back home.

I very much enjoyed it, but I am really interested in finding the
story that is was based on - "Visit to a Strange Planet" (author
mentioned in the preface to "Revisited", I just don't have a copy
handy).  In this story, of course, Kirk, Spock and McCoy find
themselves at the TV show sound stage.  It appeared in some fanzine;
does anyone know where I could obtain a copy or a reprint of this
story?

Please reply to SELINGER@RU-BLUE as well as to SFL; I am not on the
mailing list.

Marla

------------------------------

Date: Wed 15 Feb 84 13:29:51-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Fire Maidens of Outer Space

     You have not lived until you see the Fire-Maidens dancing to
"Strangers in Paradise".  This all-time baddie ends with the Fire-
Maidens (each holding one of the earthmen arm-in-arm) walking back
to the Earth spaceship and bidding their lovers farewell, tearful
promises of returning, etc.  This is definitely part of any bad
movie fanatic's videotape collection.

     Other terribly bad SF flicks are "Plan 9 From Outer Space",
"Bride of the Monster", "Robot Monster", "Buck Rogers in the 25th
Century", "Battlestar Galactica", and "Wargames".  The latter three
more modern stink-bombs enjoyed surprising success; maybe bad movie
fanaticism is not as strange as it once was.

     About "Wargames"; I just saw it for the first time.  I wonder
if we could slap UA with a class-action suit for slander against
computer professionals.  In particular, the implication that "all
computer professionals put in a 'back door' so they can always get
into the system even after they leave and additional security is put
in" sounds like it fits the legal definition of slander.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Feb 1984 17:18:52-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel (Steve Lionel)
From: <decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel@Shasta>
Subject: SF movies

Lawrence Feinberg <LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC> asked if anyone remembered
"First Spaceship on Venus".  I think I do; is that the one where they
accidentally reverse gravity, and the attempts to save one of the
astronauts fails because they keep floating off?  If so, I remember it
had quite an impact on me many many years ago when I saw it.

John Hobson <ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2> asked "Didn't Asimov write Fantastic
Voyage?"  Asimov wrote the novelization, after the movie had been
produced.  In doing so, he corrected a few of the technical errors
that the movie made (such as the lung walls appearing paper thin to
the travellers), but had to leave in quite a few more.  I recall him
discussing the writing of the novel somewhere, but can't recall where.

        Steve Lionel
        UUCP: {ucbvax,decvax}!decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel
        ARPA: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel@Berkeley
        MCI:  slionel

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 84 9:49:56-PST (Tue)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Android (some plot discussion)

Over the weekend I went and saw the new movie 'Android' starring
Klaus (Nosferatu) Kinski. This is a small budget (not low budget)
film very loosely based upon 'Frankenstein'. Kinski is a research
scientist doing work on a satellite in space on androids. Android
research, however, is illegal because androids have been outlawed
after a group of them went berserk in Munich, killing and raping.
Kinski is assisted by an adroid, Max 404 (very well played by an
actor credited only as 'himself'). While the Dr. is working on the
ultimate android (blond, stacked, and submissive), Max is showing
signs of the Munich syndrome, with a fixation on Earth and women. A
disabled ship lands on the satellite with three escaped convicts on
them, one of them a woman, and the movie takes off. Any further
discussion would probably give away things that are better left for
the movie.

Klaus Kinski is very understated in the role, and handles it very
well. All of the acting in the movie is well done. The plot has some
nice twists in it, the sets and special effects (only a few, thank
god) are wonderful. The humor in the movie is sometimes reminiscent
of Dark Star, but the overall feeling of the movie is closer to
Alien or 2001. It's good. Very good.  Potentially a new classic in
SF. See it. Now.

Rating: ****.5 (out of 5) worth full price admission AND standing in
line in the rain.

>From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui    Have you hugged your Pooh today?

Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Feb 84 16:01 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo%SCRC-VIXEN@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: SW idiom

A friend thinks that the death of Jedi masters (Ben, Yoda) is
described by other characters in the films in terms of the Force
(along the lines of "going to the Happy Hunting Ground").  He can't
remember if this is so, and neither can I.  Can anyone help with
this?

Jonathan Ostrowsky
jo%scrc-vixen@mit-mc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 84 16:00:56 EST
From: Chuck Kennedy <kermit@brl-vgr>
Subject: Re:  SW television rumor - (nf)

Yes, I saw the preview last night after the first half of "Gone With
The Wind" was shown.  Star Wars will be televised by CBS.
                                        -Chuck Kennedy

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 84 9:50:05-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!psuvax!burdvax!sjuvax!armstron @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Wanted : 1967 Green Hornet reruns

        Does anyone know where (or more appropriately IF) I can get
any videos of the 1967 Green Hornet series ??  Would anyone who
lives in an area where reruns of this show are shown be willing to
make arrangements with me to tape these ??  All and any help would
be greatly appreciated.
                                        Thanks in Advance,
                                        Len Armstrong
                                        St. Joseph's University.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 84 13:14:48 PST (Wednesday)
From: McCullough.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Lathe of Heaven & Seattle

Volume 30 #29 discusses LeGuin's "Lathe of Heaven," and mentions it
as being set in Seattle.  The streets mentioned in the story are
definitely in Portland, Oregon.  It's been a while since I read the
story and saw the film, but I believe that the story was also set in
Portland.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 84 11:48:10-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix
From: !orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Questor Tapes

Oddly enough, they showed "Questor Tapes" on telly here in Portland
OR just last saturday, on channel 8 (I think).

DREADFUL!  It may just be that I have learned discrimination, but
the dialogue between Questor and the lady scientist/security guard
was SO BAD I couldn't keep watching.

I turned to Portland Wrestling instead, for some better acting.

Hutch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #35
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Feb 84 1339-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
The Day of the JackL.
Re: Name That Tune!
Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #33
That Tune Named
"Countdown song"
re: Song Query
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 84 13:34:49 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: The Day of the JackL.

Reading the recent message about Jack L. Chalker's WELL WORLD series
made me think about submitting a "Compleat Jack L. Chalker".  Here
are the results of my efforts:

1. Books that have not yet been published, or have been published
   and are impossible to find:

   a.  AN INFORMAL BIOGRAPHY OF SCROOGE MCDUCK (mentioned in WAR OF
       SHADOWS, see below).

   b.  WAR GAME (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS).

   c.  RIP SAW (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS).

   d.  DOWNTIMING THE NIGHT SIDE (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS).

   e.  THE DEVIL'S VOYAGE (mentioned in SPIRITS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR,
       see below).

2. Published books that are not part of a series, or are not yet
   part of a series:

   a.  THE WEB OF THE CHOZEN (Del Rey, $1.75, published February 1978,
       cover art by Ralph McQuarrie, ISBN #0-345-2736-1).  WEB is
       one of my favorite Chalker novels.  It has one of Chalker's
       favorite themes--that of transformation.  It is also a
       rousing good space opera, and although not officially a
       series, I have worked out (by myself, never having met
       Chalker, I haven't been able to show them to him!) outlines
       for two more books based on events that take place in the
       first novel.

   b.  DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW (Del Rey, $1.75, published
       August 1978, cover art by Michael Herring, ISBN
       #0-345-27376-1).  DANCERS is a very interesting novel, an
       interesting examination of some events of the sixties and
       early seventies--i.e., the wars in Vietnam and Cambodia.  It
       also continues the use of some Chalker's favorite
       themes--transformation, mind-control, as well as malevolent
       group-mind aliens.  Highly recommended.

   c.  AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER (Del Rey, $1.95, published
       1979, cover art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-27926-3).
       DEVIL is another favorite.  Earthmen have accidentaly brought
       down their own doom and a person who claims to be the Devil
       gives the novel's main characters a chance to save the world.
       Will they do it?  Can he be trusted?  Can he remain sober
       enough to save the world?  A rousing space-time novel, with
       elements of swords and sorcery, Lovecraftian horror, and good
       clean fun.  Look carefully at the cover art, especially the
       bottle.

   d.  A JUNGLE OF STARS (Del Rey, $1.50, published November 1976,
       cover art by H.R. Van Dongen, ISBN #0-345-25457-0-150).  This
       is Chalker's first novel, and has many of the weaknesses that
       first novels develop.  However, it is still an enjoyable
       book.  The main character is killed during the Vietnam war,
       and "wakes" to find that he has been rescued by an alien
       force.  He then becomes involved in a vast galactic war.  The
       novel involves several of Chalker's favorite
       themes--transformation, mind-control, etc.  JUNGLE is
       supposed to be part of a series, a collection of
       short-stories was planned.  Indeed, at least one of the short
       stories was written and published (in Analog, around 1979 or
       thereabouts, I haven't been able to track it down yet).
       Alas, the short story collection has not yet come to be, but
       hope springs eternal...

   e.  THE IDENTITY MATRIX (Timescape, $2.95, published July 1982,
       cover artist unknown, ISBN #0-671-44481-6).  This book has an
       interesting publishing history.  It was first going to be
       published by Dell Books, round about 1979-80, but Chalker had
       problems with the publisher (who wanted all that s*e*x taken
       out).  Dell then had problems with their SF line, and the
       book hung in suspension for a few years.  The book is good,
       but repeats several themes (transformation, mind-control).
       Different in that it takes place mostly on Earth.  It would
       make an interesting television movie, if the Right Hands
       would work on it.  If you can find it (seeing that Timescape
       is in such a state of chaos right now), grab it.

   f.  A WAR OF SHADOWS (Ace, $1.95, published 1979, unknown cover
       artist, ISBN #0-441-87195-X).  Again, a hard book to find,
       but well worth it if you can find it.  A spy thriller with SF
       overtones, in the vein of THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN or FIREFOX.
       The USA is under attack--but by whom?  Someone from the
       outside?  An internal group?  A leftist group?  A rightist
       group? Again, would make an interesting television movie, if
       the right person could be found.  Good stuff.

3. Series books.  This is Chalker's forte, the ever-growing series:

   a.  THE SOUL RIDER SERIES:  Only one book has been published
       so far, I haven't gotten to it yet.  Review forthcoming.

       BOOK ONE:  SPIRITS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR (Tor Books, $2.95,
       published March 1984, cover art by Dawn Wilson, ISBN #
       27298-03).

   b.  THE DANCING GOD SERIES:  As with the above, only one book
       has been published, and I haven't gotten to it yet.  Review
       forthcoming.

       BOOK ONE:  THE RIVER OF THE DANCING GODS (Del Rey, $2.95,
       published February 1984, art by Darrell K. Sweet, mapy by
       Shelly Shapiro, ISBN #0-345-30892-1).

   c.  THE SAGA OF THE WELL WORLD:  Here it is boys and girls, the
       series that made Chalker a household word (well, almost...)
       Yes, as reported, many of the hexes are named after famous SF
       fans.  They are also named after ferry boats, National Parks,
       and other odds and ends.  To describe the plot would take a
       message in itself, perhaps another time...The series consists
       of five books, spanning many years (both in publishing
       history and fictional history).  In my humble opinion, the
       series starts out great, and goes downhill (for the most
       part) from there.  Still in print, and well worth reading, at
       least once.

       BOOK ONE--MIDNIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS (Del Rey, $1.95,
       published July 1977, cover art by H.R. Van Dongen, ISBN #
       0-345-25768-5-175).

       BOOK TWO--EXILES AT THE WELL OF SOULS (Part One of THE WARS
       OF THE WELL) (Del Rey, $1.95, published September 1978, cover
       art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-27701-5).

       BOOK THREE--QUEST FOR THE WELL OF SOULS  (Part Two of THE WARS
       OF THE WELL) (Del Rey, $1.95, published November 1978, cover
       art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-27702-3).

       BOOK FOUR--THE RETURN OF NATHAN BRAZIL (Originally known as
       NATHAN BRAZIL) (Del Rey, $2.95, published January 1980, art
       by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-28367-8).

       BOOK FIVE--TWILIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS:  THE LEGACY OF NATHAN
       BRAZIL (Originally known as NATHAN BRAZIL) (Del Rey, $2.95,
       published October 1980, cover art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #
       0-345-28368-6).

   d.  THE FOUR LORDS OF THE DIAMOND:  I must confess that I am
       finding it difficult to get through this series.  Again,
       a fairly complicated plot, worth a message in itself.  I
       read the first two books and generally enjoyed them.  I
       could hardly get through the third book, and haven't been
       able to get into the fourth book yet.  I don't really know
       what bothers me about the books, perhaps the fact that each
       plotline is generally the same as the others.

       BOOK ONE--LILITH:  A SNAKE IN THE GRASS (Del Rey, $2.50,
       published October 1981, cover art by David B. Mattingly,
       ISBN #0-345-29369-X).

       BOOK TWO--CERBERUS:  A WOLF IN THE FOLD  (Del Rey, $2.50,
       published January 1982, cover art by David B. Mattingly,
       ISBN #0-345-29371-1).

       BOOK THREE--CHARON:  A DRAGON AT THE GATE (Del Rey, $2.95,
       published November 1982, cover art by David B. Mattingly,
       ISBN #0-345-29370-3).

       BOOK FOUR--MEDUSA:  A TIGER BY THE TAIL (Del Rey, $2.95,
       published April 1983, cover art by David B. Mattingly,
       ISBN #0-345-29372-X).

That, to the best of my knowledge, is the "Compleat Jack L.
Chalker".  I will be glad to update this list periodically, as new
books are published, and add new comments as I read the various
books.

Coming soon (I hope!), a fairly complete bibliography of A.E. Van
Vogt!

Sincerely,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 84 01:57:01 EST
From: Don <WATROUS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Name That Tune!
To: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA

It sounds like you are describing Space Hymn by Lothar and the Hand
People.  Back in the late 60's/early 70's Allison Steele, a radio
personality on WNEW-FM, New York, used to occasionally get into a
strange mood and play correspondingly bizarre music.  One of these
pieces was Space Hymn.  After hearing it a couple of times, I
actually caught the name.  Years later, I actually ran across the
album in a store.  For a used (and in not too good shape) copy, the
owner wanted something on the order of $150.  (I think he also had a
mint copy for maybe $100 more.)  At any rate, I was able to rent the
album to take home and record.  Anyway, here're some of the words to
it:

They start with a sort of mellow space blast-off - ala Jefferson
Starship effects.  Then they go into a (quite literally) hypnotic
rap (with a sort of electric sitar sound in the background).  "Now,
sit in a comfortable position.  Close your eyes, and listen very
closely to the sound of my voice.  Imagine that there is nothing but
you and the sound, floating freely high above the Earth.  Now as you
listen, you will begin to relax.  Every sound you hear relaxes you
further...."  They go on like this for a while, finally coming to
countdown from 5 to 0.  Then "Imagine that you are floating high
above the Earth.  In deep space.  Looking out on the universe.
Floating free in space.  Uplifted and filled with awe.  Silently
watching the movements of the stars."  Then a musical "chorus":

   Standing on the moon, filled with thoughts of home, Earth so
        slowly turning.
   Twenty thousand years, Human hopes and fears, are we finally
        learning?
   Riders together on a starship of stone,
   Living together, trying together, dying alone.

        (Repeat.)

A good deal of the spoken part at the beginning could have been a
literal transcript of a session of hypnosis.  (I thought they used
to shy away from doing that over mass media.)  Lothar (from the name
of the group) was a theremin, the Hand People were those who played
Lothar.  The volume and pitch of the theremin are controlled by
moving hands close to or away from two antennae extending from the
box.  Hope this is what you were looking for.

While on the subject of obscure music (but not necessarily SF), does
anyone know where I can get a recording of Stairway to Gilligan's
Island?  (That's the words of Gilligan's Island to the tune of
Stairway to Heaven - withdrawn from market due to copyright
infringement.)

Don

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Feb 84 21:12:58-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #33

HJJH's song query.

The song sounds like 99 Red Balloons performed by the German group
Neena (sp? -- pronounced Naena) The German version was kicking
around Boston for awhile and is called 99 Luft Ballons (sp? again).

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 16 Feb 1984 16:08:26-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!sunfun!stewart@Shasta
Subject: That Tune Named

**********************************************************************
*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Name That Tune! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     *
*                                                                    *
*I was cruising along the highway tonight and getting sleepy, so I   *
*switched from the "easy listening" station to something pop and     *
*contemporary.  A song came on, not too clearly, that must surely    *
*have been one of the pop-songs-with-SF-relevance which were         *
*discussed on SF-LOVERS a while back.  It seemed to have something to*
*do with spaceships, maybe the shuttle.  There was a 4 - 3 - 2 - 1   *
*countdown (tho no blastoff type sound), with "floating" and maybe   *
*"flying" in what was probably the chorus.  Can anyone identify this *
*for me?                                                             *
**********************************************************************

That cut is from Peter Schilling's latest album.  It's called "Major
Tom".  The local stations here play both the English and German
versions, but not as much anymore.  If you liked that, you'd
probably like the tune Planet P had on the charts this summer.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the song, now.  Trivia
time!  Anybody remember the two other songs mentioning Major Tom?

        John Stewart

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 16 Feb 1984 19:29:31-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel (Steve Lionel)
From: <decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel@Shasta>
Subject: "Countdown song"

        From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
        Subject: song query

        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Name That Tune! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        I was cruising along the highway tonight and getting sleepy,
        so I switched from the "easy listening" station to something
        pop and contemporary.  A song came on, not too clearly, that
        must surely have been one of the pop-songs-with-SF-relevance
        which were discussed on SF-LOVERS a while back.  It seemed
        to have something to do with spaceships, maybe the shuttle.
        There was a 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 countdown (tho no blastoff type
        sound), with "floating" and maybe "flying" in what was
        probably the chorus.  Can anyone identify this for me?

This sounds like "Major Tom", a recent release by Peter Schilling
(sp?).  This is NOT to be confused with David Bowie's earlier song
about an astronaut named Major Tom; the title of THAT song is "Space
Oddity".  Schiling's song has been played in both English and German
versions by WBCN in Boston.

                        Steve Lionel
                        ARPA: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel@SU-SHASTA
                        UUCP: decwrl!rhea!orphan
                        MCI:  slionel

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 Feb 1984 05:07:21-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta
Subject: re: Song Query

        The tune you want is, from your description, most likely
"Major Tom (Coming Home)" by Peter Schiller. The chorus goes
something like:

        "Earth below us
         Drifting, falling
         Floating weightless
         Calling, calling home."

        The story in the song is basicly that the pilot of a
spacecraft, after being shot into orbit, decides not to come back,
feeling that he belongs in space, and has indeed "come home".
        Schiller is a German, and the album from which "Major Tom"
comes, ERROR IN THE SYSTEM, is a re-doing of his original album,
which is all in German. As a matter of fact, the original German
version of "Major Tom" can be had on the flip side of the single of
the english version.
        Hope this has been helpful.

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Feb 84 23:24:23 est
From: Beth Gazouleas <beth%Upenn-ASP%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>

The song with the countdown in it is Major Tom (Coming Home) by
Peter Schilling, a sequel to 2 songs by David Bowie (Major Tom and
Ashes to Ashes).  It is a great song!

beth

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to all the people who also responded
on the song query with similar information.  The list is too
numerous to mention here.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #36
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Feb 84 1621-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:
             Books - David Brin,
             Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - ZORK & Believable Aliens &
                     Old Time Religion & Billion Dollar Space Programs &
                     Parsecs & Sure We Can!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 83 14:21:18-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!onyx!dual!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!vic
From: e!keithl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Solar physics in "Sundiver"

I mostly agree with Lew Mammel's comments on Sundiver ( I liked
Startide Rising much better ), but I couldn't let his comment on
solar buffeting go without comment.

If the density is 1e-6 g/cm3 (though it sounds too high), that is
about 0.001 that of the Earth's atmosphere.  Aerodynamic forces are
proportional to the density times the relative wind velocity
squared; the solar velocities would only have to be 30 times higher
for an equivalent force.  Hurricane velocities in the Earth's
atmosphere are around 100 m/sec; an indication of the solar velocity
scale is the solar wind, which comes off the sun at >300 Km/sec!
For this crude analysis, the buffeting forces would be 9,000 times
greater than an Earth hurricane!

Of course, the real situation is dependent on the velocities in the
deeper layers of the Sun, the actual turbulence, and the "wind
shear".  The actual buffeting could be orders of magnitude larger or
smaller, but the important point is that even a "vacuum" can have a
strong wind if it moves fast enough.  The Sun is a powerful
machine...

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 84 14:26:37-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: aliens in STARTIDE RISING

This jumps back a few months, but here goes....

The more I think about it, the more certain I am that the aliens in
Brin's universe will *not* recognize artificial intelligences as
separate and equal species!

Reasons:
        (1) In *Sundiver* mention is made of several extremely
            bloody wars between oxygen breathers and hydrogen
            breathers.  During these wars entire planets are laid
            waste.  Needless to say, this would tend to encourage
            "xenophobia", where "xeno-" refers more to the basic
            biochemistry than the outer appearance.

        (2) If more than one species has created artificial
            intelligences, whose client are they?  Since a large
            amount of prestige is associated with the number of
            clients, the first species with AI clients would
            strongly discourage other species from creating their
            own AI clients.

Finally, I suspect that evolution will continue under the patronage
system.  The upraising species has a very strong vested interest in
its client species, specifically it needs them around to ensure that
their decendents many years later are treated well before
extinction.  (Think of the analogy of parents raising children to
ensure that they will go to a retirement home).  Now, if another
species gives its clients every advantage they can, they have a
better chance of coming out ahead once they're on their own.  And,
if they are one of the more powerful species, they can take better
care of their patrons.  The bottom line is: Natural selection will
work to encourage an "artifical evolution" among the client races.

This analysis leads to two interesting questions:

(1) Since a higher level of technology will also tend to improve a
    species' standing among all species, why are so many races
    content to just "sit back" and do things as they've always been
    done, and

(2) Clearly the galactics do not have any qualms concerning genetic
    engineering (witness the clients).  What prevents a species from
    making a client of itself once they begin to devolve?  Clearly
    genetic engineering (leading to another score million years of
    their existance) is better than extinction in only a short time.

ave discordia                           going bump in the night ...
bruce giles

decvax!ucf-cs!giles                     university of central florida
giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay                 orlando, florida 32816

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 20 Feb 1984 07:53:02-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch (Don't fire until you see the whites of
From: their eyes) <decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@Shasta>
Subject: Re: "Doctor" Who

In the episode "Four for Doomsday", the Doctor (Peter Davison) is
asked what type of doctor he is.

I think he answers the question quite well: "Of everything".

There...straight from the Doctor's mouth!

-- Bill Lynch
   Digital Equipment Corp
   Nashua, NH
   UUCP:  {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch
   ARPA:  decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@{Berkeley,SU-Shasta}

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 84 18:22 EST
From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Dr. Who Video Game???

Rumor has it there is a Dr.  Who video game.  Does anyone know if
this is true?  If it is, what does it run on?  Is it available in
the U.S.?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 20:20:52-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!mlf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dr. Who - Good-bye Tardis

How can they get rid of the police box?  The new generation of kids
may not recognize the thing as a call box, but then I imagine that
young American viewers of a few years back did either, and they
haven't complained.  What with the Doctor becoming so painfully
serious and solemn these days, a TARDIS shaped like an outdated,
incongruous artifact is a badly needed touch of whimsy.
     Yes, they can take away the sonic screwdriver, they can unravel
the scarf, but by God they should not trash the call box.  After
all, what is sacred, anyway?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 84 13:37:31-PST (Thu)
From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 'Doctor' Who - (nf)

        >From: twt@uicsl.UUCP

        >????? What is Horology ?????????????????

Is this a joke?  The original statement that Dr. Who, a timelord,
has a degree in horology was a joke and quite funny too.

Horology is the art (or science) of making ... timepieces.

>From the Tardis of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP,  decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc,
...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 1984 15:00:02 PST
From: <james@ACC>
Subject: ZORK info request
Cc: doug,scott

        Hello, science fiction lovers!! I am not sure if this is the
right place to raise such a question, but here goes...
        My colleagues and I are avid Zork players, but we are
somewhat dissatisfied with the command parsor in our version.  We
are running Version 2.2A.  Is there anyone out there who can help us
find a more current version with a better command parsor?  Also, is
there still(or was there ever, or is there(WHEW)) a
"net.zorkplayers" for those of us who still haven't figured the
whole thing out yet?

        Thanks in advance for all the info...

        "Dangerous" James Fanning

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 Feb 1984 12:07:54-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder (Wanted: A good five-cent nickel)
From: <decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder@Shasta>
Subject: Believable aliens...

csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX brings up the most interesting question of all by
asking what makes a believable alien.  Rather then giving it in my
own words, I suggest that he/she read Niven and Pournelle's The Mote
in God's Eye.  The aliens in that novel are singularly believable,
perhaps the most believable I have seen in print or on film.  One of
the qualities of these aliens that go into their believability is
pivotal to the story (isn't it always that way?), and the entire
business is handled well.  The book is long, so be ready for an
extended session - I couldn't put it down the first time I read it.

- Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Feb 84 07:19:02 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!KUL@Berkeley
Subject: old time religion

Let us watch Ka.ka.pa.ull
Frolic in her swimming pool
Subjecting chaos to her rule
And that's all right with me

   Dar Nushi!   Dar Icus!
   Dar Enlil!   Dar Sud!

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 83 6:36:19-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!onyx!dual!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!vic
From: e!keithl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Billion Dollar Space Programs

I have posted an article about this subject in net.space, where I
think this discussion belongs.  See you there!

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 12:42:08-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!unc!rentsch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

In times when space warp travel is common, getting into and out of
warp quickly might make a HUGE difference in terms of how long the
trip takes, because the trip is much shorter.  Seen in this light,
saying that something was done in "under 17 parsecs" makes a lot of
sense, no?

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 2:43:08-PST (Fri)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sure we can!

>>  If we can discuss the likes of Deryni, Darkover, Terry Brooks,
>>  and Tolkien in SF-Lovers, we can damned well discuss speculative
>>  physics relating to space travel.

    I should point out that there is one difference between
"speculative physics relating to space travel", and "Deryni,
Darkover, Terry Brooks, and Tolkien".  And that is this: In all
cases, the books that you have mentioned are internally
self-consistant (i.e. there is no place where you can say "This part
of the novel disagrees with this part").

    That is not true with "FTL" drives.

    What most authors misunderstand about Einstein's theory of
relativity is that it is not the ACT of moving through space that
"makes time go slower", but rather that space and time are two
components of the same thing.  "Going through Hyperspace" would do
absolutely nothing, because the very ACT of ARRIVING at a location
before light would (given any frame of refrence), is the very ACT of
going backwards through time.

    Thus, though is is possible for "Psychism" to exist, even
"magic" (as long as it is in another universe), FTL cannot.  This
fact will not go away.  Period.  You might as well write 1000 novels
based on Perpetual Motion machines, and have the same degree of
truth in them as Star Wars, Star Trek, etc, etc, etc.

    Steven  Maurer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #37
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Feb 84 1519-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Feb 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:
                Books - Bradley & Heinlein & Smith &
                        Vernor Vinge & Story Requests,
                Films - Munchausen & Movie News & Star Trek III &
                        Star Trek Question,
                Television - Questor (2 msgs) & Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 1984 01:55:36-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: THE MANY-COLORED LAND; THENDARA HOUSE

A recent submission attacked the pacing of THE MANY-COLORED LAND. I
don't recall it taking as long as 150 pages to describe the leading
contemporary characters, but however long it took was certainly
reasonable; there are eight of them, and all of them are going to be
important in the 1200 pages (est.; the last book isn't out yet) that
follow. I'm looking forward to the conclusion of the work (title
forgotten; out so far are tMCL, THE GOLDEN TORC, and THE UNBORN KING
(which has a marvelous portrait of one of the characters which I
could swear is cribbed from a portrait of one of the Medicis,
matching a reference in the book). (NB I \don't/ have infinite
patience; I was bored to death by the first Thomas Covenant book,
went back after all the cheering, and gave up finally half way
through the second.)

Steven Maurer accuses Bradley of falling into the trap of excess
politicization. First he's inaccurate about past books:
                 Her Darkover novels have always been written with a
        bit of "feminine slant" (i.e. the plots center around: women
        forced to have children, women rebelling against the sexist
        society they live in, the cruelty of men, protagonists who
        are helpless in their fate, woman/woman relationships, etc.
This leaves out the first 9 (at least) in the assemblage; most of
these are routine adventure stories, but WINDS OF DARKOVER has a
gutsy female protagonist and HERITAGE OF HASTUR was the beginning of
a string of much solider books.

Second, Peter Haldane was set up as a pig in THE SHATTERED
CHAIN---it's obvious why Magda left him, and it's almost as obvious
why Jaelle (whose upbringing in the Dry Towns has affected her far
more than she likes to acknowledge) is infatuated with him (at least
temporarily--in an essay published in the late 1970's Bradley says
she certainly isn't expecting J to stay with "that turkey Peter
Haldane" for long).
  Now I find it rather less believable that a dilute form of his
attitudes should so permeate Terran Empire headquarters; although we
have virtually no idea, even putting all the books together, what
the Terran Empire is like, I doubt (for instance) that they would
insist on calling Jaelle Mrs. Haldane, but that's less important.
The entire book is about how one deals with borderline-to-completely
unconscious mindsets---the obvious ones of the Terrans and the
subtler but just as disabling ones of the Sisterhood.  (Bradley got
a \lot/ of flack for the scene in DARKOVER LANDFALL in which a
female pilot was refused an abortion because children were vitally
necessary; while she might not write that particular scene again she
is still not a one-sided feminist.)

As to Jaelle sticking with Peter in the face of maltreatment---can
you gauge infatuation? The impression from THE SHATTERED CHAIN is
that this is her first serious love. Look around you, and even in
hotbeds of liberalism you will see many women (and not just ones
acculturated to subordination) sticking with men who mistreat them
(and vice versa).
   Moreover, how much of a sense of duty does Jaelle feel to the
Sisterhood and to Darkover as a whole to bridge the gaps over which
stiff-necked Comyn and patronizing Earth[men, mostly] sneer at each
other. Equally important, how does she compare her position to
Magda's? Envying her the social warmth of Thendara House (against
the thermal warmth and social abstraction of Terran HQ), gradually
realizing that the adjustments are as difficult for Magda (who,
though she is trained to examine and accommodate to different
cultures, is dealing with a group less used to such than the Terrans
and not knowing how alien she is), possibly even feeling duty to
(mixed with competitiveness with?)  her oath daughter to hold up her
end of the bridge as long as Magda holds up hers.

THENDARA HOUSE is far from perfect, but it is not the maudlin
diatribe described by Maurer. (My biggest complaint isn't anything
previously mentioned, but the [almost] supernatural Dark Sisterhood
that we get glimpses of, which in addition to being unnecessarily
elliptical reads like a gigantic sequel hook.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 11:34:29 EST
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: re: Heinlein dislike

My dislike of Heinklein has nothing to do with his political
ramblings.  They don't help any, but since i tend to agree with the
gist of his philosophy, i don't mind.  What i really hate about
Heinlein is watching him write about his sexual fantasies.  At first
it was just a normal attempt to get sex into the stories.  Then i
remember Farmer's Freehold: middle aged man after being married for
some time finally gets good sex from a young attractive girl,
happily losing his middle aged wife in a nuclear exchange.  Then
Stranger in a Strange land: the middle age man was smart enough not
to get married, and has a bevy of young, attractive girls to have
sex with.  Then I Will Fear No Evil: an entire novel of sexual
fantasy.  When i read the one (i didn't even bother to remember the
name) where the middle aged man is immortal, so ALL women want to
have his baby, i decided enough was enough.  It didn't help any
that he gets to have sex with his twin daughters (or sisters?  I
can't remember, but they were 15 years old.).  That's the last
Heinlein i've read.

I pick out books at random, so i don't know if this is really the
cronology these books were written (though i seem to remember it
is).  Are there other books in between that don't exhibit these
traits?
                                        provan@cmua

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 1984 1752-PST
From: tom at LOGICON
Subject: Re: One more by E.E. Smith

Actually the original title of "Masters of the Vortex" was "Vortex
Blasters", or something like that.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Feb 84 05:30:03-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: "VORTEX" not a Doc Smith singleton

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Non-Lensman or Skylark Books by Doc Smith ^^^^^^^^^^

Although not in the main sequence, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX, aka THE
VORTEX BLASTERS, counts as a Lensman book because it is set in that
universe, and re-issues of the series generally include it,
typically as a tag-along at the end.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 1984 1745-PST
From: tom at LOGICON
Subject: True Names and others

To those of you who enjoyed Vernor Vinge's cult classic "True Names"
-take heart!  The May Analog begins a 4-part serial by him that
should really push your buttons, even though the plot is quite
dissimilar.  This is one to wait for - and to nominate for awards!
(By-the-way, it's pronounced "VIN-gee.")

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Feb 84 02:56-EST
From: Marvin Minsky <MINSKY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: authors

Anyone know who wrote these two stories?

1.  There is a guerilla war, and there are nice little kids who are
hungry and pathetic.  When you take them home they blow up.  Maybe
Philip Dick or Damon Knight?

2.  A story in which the aliens land, but all the scientists who try
to communicate with them go mad because their ideas are too alien.
Finally a business enterpreneur goes into the ship and makes contact
with their businessman, and pulls off some kind of good deal.
Because business must show profit and loss, however alien everything
else is.  Maybe Keith Laumer?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 84 03:41 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: This and that

Re: comments about 1943 German film "Munchausen" - not entirely 
germane perhaps but I have a record of Furtwaengler conducting 
Bruckner live in Berlin in 1944 that I wouldn't part with for 
anything...

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 12:44:42 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: News from the Front, Volume I--Movie News

The following is garnered from a variety of sources, LOCUS, STARLOG
and personal sources:

WARP--a science fiction stage trilogy which spawned a comic book
series has been optioned by Mark Victor and Michael Grais, best
known for POLTERGEIST

THE X-MEN--a $22 million Orion picture produced in association with
Canada's Nelvana Studios.  FIRE & ICE writers Roy Thomas and Gerry
Conway will write the script.  The storyline will reportedly follow
closely the sequence beginning with Issue 139 in which Kitty Pryde
joins the mutant team and will include a "pre-Dark Phoenix Jean
Grey".  I hope that all makes sense to you folks, I don't read the
stuff, I just pass it on...

DICK TRACY--Richard Benjamin will direct (or so it says here),
Parmount/ Universal is making it, budget is slated at $12.5 million,
and THE LATEST RUMOUR IS THAT CLINT EASTWOOD WILL STAR!!!!!

FROM A VIEW TO A KILL--the title of the latest James Bond flick, to
star Roger Moore.

V--THE CONCLUSION started filming on December 21.  It is promised by
May, in the form of a six-hour telefilm, but there have been some
production problems, so don't hold your breath.  It will contain all
of the folks from previous film--be they aliens or humans, and will
run for six (!) hours.  Rumour has it that the first film will be
shown immediately before, making it a V-week to say the least!

RED DAWN--about a Russian Invasion Of The USA.  Stars Sandahl
Bergman, Harry Dean Stanton and William Smith.  Directed by John
Milius.

MAD MAX THREE--Mel Gibson will return!!!!!

RETURN OF THE DEAD--Dan O'Bannon directs from his own script.  No
knowledge of what the relation is (if any) with certain other Dead
films...

METROPOLIS--Giorgio Moroder owns the rights to this movie, and is
currently devising a new soundtrack with the talents of Kim Carnes,
Billy Squier and others.  Watchers of MTV and other music/video
shows may have seen the recent "Radio Gaga" video by QUEEN which
features much footage from Metropolis.

To be continued...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 13:04:26 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: STAR TREK III:  THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (SPOILER!!!!!)

The following is garnered from a recent STARLOG article:

The article reveals no major plot hints, but does show the following
in the way of pictures:

1.  A picture of Kirk and Sarek (Mark Lenard) in civilian clothing,
    in Kirk's apartment, with Sarek doing a "mind-touch" on Kirk.

2.  A picture of McCoy, Chekov, Kirk, Scotty, and Sulu in
    civilian clothing, in a dark, foggy forest.  They are all
    looking at something off-camera, and Kirk is aiming his phaser
    at it...

3.  A picture of Kirk and McCoy in civilian clothing, Kirk is about
    to inject something into McCoy's arm.

4.  A picture of Saavik (played by Robin Curtis) and David Marcus on
    THE GENESIS PLANET!!!!!

5.  Kirk and Sarek (I say, but Mark Lenard looks remarkably healthy
    for a man who has been atomized on two separate occasions...) in
    Kirk's apartment.

6.  The new Saavik receiving directions from Leonard Nimoy in his
    role as director.

7.  James B. Sikking (probably familiar to most as "Howard Hunter"
    in HILL STREET BLUES) in the role of a starship commander who is
    "forced into The Search for Spock."

In the article, the following hints were dropped:

1.  A set being built of giant redwood trees...

2.  Kim Ryusaki, who played a cadet in STII and others who played
    cadets will be back again as full-fledged members of the crew.

3.  The Engineering set will not appear in this movie.

4.  The Sick Bay set has been cut in half to make room for a new
    set, a futuristic bar which will NOT be on the Enterprise, but
    in San Francisco, on Earth.

5.  We will see more of the "off duty" life of the characters.

6.  On the stage where the Regula, Regula One and Ceti Alpha V sets
    were built is being constructed a large, multi-level set.  The
    only thing completed by the time the article was written was a
    giant golden-helmeted head positioned against a jet-black
    background.

7.  A giant Vulcan Temple.  A GIANT VULCAN TEMPLE!!!!!  Mark
    Lenard and Dame Judith Anderson appearing in scenes both
    "powerful and pivotal to the storyline".  Hundreds
    (HUNDREDS!!!!!) of robed extras, including George Takei in
    Vulcan disguise (but not as himself, as a Vulcan extra...).

8.  The Torpedo Room in STII, which was the Klingon Bridge in STI,
    is being rebuilt.  Most likely it will be a Klingon Bridge again
    in STIII, as one of the main characters, Kruge (Christopher
    Lloyd) is a Klingon...

See you all in line on June 1!!!!!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 1984 09:40:11-EST
From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY
Subject: Star Trek Question

I was watching ST-TWOK the other day (we have cable, and it really
is one of the best ST's made, anyway...)

   Savaak (sp?): If we enter the nebula, shields will be ineffective

   Spock:          Sauce for the goose

   Savaak:         Eh?

   Spock:          The odds will be even.

All right.  What is 'sauce for the goose'?

>From the oft times puzzled world of Robert Zimmermann

UUCP:   {...decvax!idis!mi-cec!cmu-cs-g!}raz@ampere
ARPA:   raz%ampere@cmu-cs-g

------------------------------

Date: 23 February 1984 08:44 est
From: Gubbins.5581i2160 at RADC-MULTICS
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #34

Hutch, you missed the point of the conversation between Questor and
the guard.  The point is that it was a very poor conversation as
Questor knew not how to converse properly, but thru his interaction,
rapidly learned.  By the time he (it) left, Questor had learned and
was using tone inflections, pauses, pronouns.  Remember (if only I
can...) that a good part of his programming was never completed, one
can assume conversational interaction was a part of the missing
tapes.  I believe Gene Roddenberry in an interview brought this
point out, hence I became aware of its role, not being a big Questor
fan myself.

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984 17:59:29-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!prancr!saunders@Shasta
Subject: Re: Questor Tapes

In reply to a comment by ...!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax:

You should have kept watching the movie.  Questor didn't speak very
well at first.  In fact, as I remember, the guard thought he was ill
or something.  He got better...

        John Saunders

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 84 03:41 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: This and that

Re: Dr.  Who's TARDIS - there would seem to be a head of steam 
building up behind a protest movement against the removal of the 
police box - the BBC are now saying that no firm decision has been 
made...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Feb  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #38
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Feb 84 1306-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:
          Books - Chalker (3 msgs) & Book News (2 msgs) &
                  Playboy Science Fiction and Fantasy & 
                  A book Request & A Request Answered &
                  Star Trek,
          Films - Star Trek (2 msgs),
          Games - News from the Front,
          Television - Dr Who,
          Miscellaneous - Sure We Can

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 1984 13:19-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <taw at S1-C>
Subject: Re: The Day of the JackL.

I have usually enjoyed Chalker, but I'm afraid that he is moving a
bit too much toward the "Book Five of the FOOBAR Trilogy*" syndrome
for my tastes.  When he confines himself to a single book, he is at
his best, but his recent multi-volume works left me a bit cold.
Some books are just so full of ideas that they beg to be stretched.
Chalker's books have some really interesting concepts, but wading
through the packing material to get at them is something I can live
without.

--Tom

* Yes, I know the meaning of the word 'Trilogy', so no flaming mail,
please.  This is not a typo, as anyone who has ever read Farmer's
Riverworld 'Trilogy' will understand.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Feb 84 18:47:35 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: "unpublished or impossible to find" Chalker books

    "An Informal Biography of Scrooge McDuck" is real, although it
may be hard to find.  I have a copy packed away somewhere.  I
remember it as being a very small book, and stapled rather than any
fancier binding (paper covers).  The cover illustration is a picture
of Scrooge McDuck without a face -- that is, it's a picture of a
hat, a pair of glasses, etc. -- everything except the duck.  They
couldn't use an image of Scrooge himself, because the rights to the
character belong to Disney Studios, who refused to allow it to be
used.
    I believe that the book was published by the small publishing
house that Chalker is part owner of (somebody help me out here -- I
don't remember the name -- I think it's either Mirage Press or
Advent Press), and I have no idea whether it's still in print.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 1984 11:38:17-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
To: kiesche@ru-blue
Subject: AN INFORMAL BIOGRAPHY OF SCROOGE MCDUCK

Does indeed exist, although it was printed a \long/ time ago; it may
have been the first [book] from Mirage Press, which is what Chalker
originally called his fanzine [operation]; Mirage also brought out
at least the later edition of Feghoots (80+ stories, foreword by
Poul Anderson, published 1976). The MITSFS used to have a copy, but
it has been effectively out of print for some time (I think Chalker
may have gotten into trouble with Disney over it.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 12:33:27 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: News from the Front--Book News, Volume I

Here is a compilation of recently discovered book news, garnered
from such sources as LOCUS, STARLOG, FANTASY/SPACE GAMER, etc., as
well as personal sources...

Deathbird Stories--by Harlan Ellision, reissued by Bluejay Books for
$6.95.

The End of the Dream--by Philip Wylie, the "classic" disaster novel,
has been reissued by DAW for $2.25, with a special introduction by
John Brunner.

1984--by George Orwell, has been reissued by Signet in a special
1984 edition, priced $2.95, with a preface by Walter Cronkite.

The Penultimate Truth--by Philip K. Dick, Bluejay Books, $6.95.

The Foundation Trilogy--by Isaac Asimov, issued in one volume from
Del Rey Books for $8.95.

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock--by Vonda McIntyre, will be out
from Timescape in JUNE, not APRIL, as they had previously
planned...sigh, I guess the secrets will be safe for a few more
weeks...

Players of Gor--by John Norman, DAW, $3.50 (!!!)

V--there will be three V books released in the near future.  Two
will be based on the movies (i.e., the first movie that we've all
seen, and the second which is in process).  The third will be
written solely on the author's own steam and will show what happened
on the East Coast of the USA while all the action going on out West
was happening...Authors involved will be Anne Crispin and Howard
Weinstein, both alumni of the Timescape/Pocket STAR TREK line.

World's End--by Joan Vinge, Bluejay Books, $13.95.

Heretics of Dune--by Frank Herbert, Putnam's, $16.95.

Extra(Ordinary) People--by Joanna Russ, St. Martin's, $10.95.

The Practice Effect--by David Brin, Bantam, no price listed.

The Ghost Light--by Fritz Leiber, Berkley Books, no price listed.

The Wild Shore--by Kim Stanley Robinson, Ace, $2.95.

The Integral Trees--by Larry Niven, Del Rey, $14.95.

The Flight of the Dragonfly--by Robert L. Forward, Timescape,
$15.95.

1984: Spring, A Choice of Futures--by Arthur C. Clarke, Del Rey,
$14.95.

Ambassador of Progress--by Walter Jon Williams, Tor, $2.95.

Chaos in Lagrangia--by Mack Reynolds and Dean Ing, Tor, $2.95.

Wizard's Eleven--by Sheri S. Tepper, Ace, $2.50.

Hit or Myth--by Robert Asprin, Starblaze, $6.95.

Across the Sea of Suns--by Gregory Benford, Timescape, $15.95.

Frontier of the Dark--by A. Bertram Chandler, Ace, $2.75.

Kelly Country--by A. Bertram Chandler, Penguin, $5.95.

STAR TREK III--William Rotsler has finished THREE of his FOUR book
contract of books based on STAR TREK III.  He is sworn to secrecy...

Finally, how many of you saw the television commercials for 2010:
ODYSSEY TWO?  No, I don't mean commercials for the movie
--commercials for the book!  They were shown on the three major
networks, various smaller networks, and the various commercial cable
stations.  It is about sixty seconds long, features some cheesy
model shots, some good computer animation, and the requisite
stirring music.  Good stuff.

DISCLAIMER: The author assumes no responsibility towards the
accuracy of the prices listed above.  Books are not listed in any
particular order nor is mention made of any particular release date.

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 17:05:15 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: NEWS FLASH!!!  NEWS FLASH!!!

1.  Julian May's THE NON-BORN KING is out in paperback from Del Rey,
    for $3.50, featuring a nifty cover by Michael Whealen.

2.  L. Ron Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH is also out in paperback for
    $4.95 (!!!!). On the cover it states: "Coming Soon As A Major
    Motion Picture".

Will Pittsburgh ever be the same?

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24 Feb 1984 00:33:51-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!vortex!perch!leslie@Shasta
Subject: PLAYBOY SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY

In the 1960s (and maybe 70's and 80's, I don't read Playboy),
Playboy published a number of sf&f in the mag, then anthologised
into at least 1 h/c book.

The copy I have, whose date page has disappeared, includes the
following stories:

        The Fly                         Geaorge Langelaan
        Blood brother                   Charles Beaumont
        Love, Incorporated              Robert Sheckley
        A Foot in the Door              Bruce Jay Friedman
        The Vacation                    Ray Bradbury
        The Never Ending Penny          Bernard Wolfe
        Bernie the Faust                William Tenn
        A Man for the Moon              Leyland Webb
        The Noise                       Ken W. Purdy
        The killer in the TV set        Bruce Jay Friedman
        I remember Babylon              Arthur C. Clarke
        Word of Honour                  Robert Bloch
        John Grant's Little Angel       Walt Grove
        The Fiend                       Frederick Pohl
        Hard Bargin                     Alan E. Nourse
        The Nail and the Oracle         Theodore Sturgeon
        After                           Henry Slesar
        December 28th                   Theodore L. Thomas
        Spy Story                       Robert Sheckley
        Punch                           Frederick Pohl
        The Crooked Man                 Charles Beaumont
        Who Shall Dwell                 H.C.Neal
        Double Take                     Jack Finney     ! see P.S.
        Examination Day                 Henry Slesar
        The Mission                     Hugh Nissenson
        Waste Not, Want Not             John Atherton
        The Dot-Dash Bird               Bernard Wolfe
        The Sensible Man                Avram Davidson
        Souvenir                        J.G.Ballard
        Puppet Show                     Fredric Brown
        The Room                        Ray Russell
        Dial "F" for Frankenstein       Arthur C. Clarke

Are there any more anthologies like this? This must be one of the
best collections I've ever read! What present-day magazines have
this calibre of stories? OMNI started well but I read an OMNI
anthology or two, they were in mag format themselves and I don't
think they've published books, at least not in the U.K.

Did Playboy publish any more? I'd love to know.

andy leslie

P.S. Double Take is the short story that begat a GREAT book! ( and a
     POOR film) Time after Time Shmaltzy but fun.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 1984 1501 PST
From: Big Don Baker <BAKER@JPL-VLSI>
Subject: A GOOD BOOK

        I AM TRYING TO LOCATE A BOOK READ LONG LONG AGO...AUTHOR
UNKNOWN..  PUBLISHER UNKNOW....TITLE "LIGHTNING IN THE EAST"....HELP

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 1984 1736-PST
From: tom@LOGICON
Subject: Minksy's author query

In reference to the second story mentioned, about the
alien businessmen; the story is "Firewater," by William Tenn, which
appeared in Astounding Science Fiction (ASF) ca.  1953.

(Trivia answer by Mike Gannis)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 18:34:34 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Visit to a Strange planet

     "Visit To a Strange Planet Revisited " was in the original New
Voyages, that is Volume 1. The original "Visit to a Strange Planet "
was published in the original Star Trek fanzine Spockanalia. As far
as I know, it is impossible to get any more copies, even at Star
Trek Conventions. It may barely be possible to get something from
the original authors of the zine. I believe it stopped running in
the mid-70's.

Trekkies of the universe, unite!
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984 17:58:57-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!prancr!saunders@Shasta
Subject: Star Trek II Question

Does anyone understand how rank, department, etc are reflected in
the new uniforms?  It used to be that shirt color determined
department, and sleeve stripes (or lack thereof) determined rank.
It now looks like the metallic-looking insignia on the shoulder
determines rank, but I can't make sense out of the shirt colors.
Kirk, Spock, and Terrel all wear white. OK, so that indicates ship
command. Chekov and Uhura wear grey.  Are they both commanders? Then
why does McCoy wear green, when there is one shot in his office with
a sign saying "Cmdr L. McCoy"? It looks pretty much like all the
Lieutenants wear red, someone (ensigns) wear black, but why does
Sulu alone (as far as I saw), wear orange?

By the way, I couldn't quite make out Sulu's rank insignia. Is he a
captain or a commander?  The novelization has him as a captain
taking the Enterprise help out of courtesy and as an excuse to get
back on the Enterprise.

        John Saunders
        PRANCR::SAUNDERS

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 27 Feb 1984 20:57-PST
Subject: sauce for the goose
From: meier@ISL at Sumex-Aim

        In ST-II, the following lines were read.

   Savaak (sp?): If we enter the nebula, shields will be ineffective

   Spock:          Sauce for the goose

   Savaak:         Eh?

   Spock:          The odds will be even.

        The reference is to a cliche.  "What's sauce for the goose
is sauce for the gander".  The implication is that both starships
will be "in the same boat".  This cliche is usually used to indicate
that penalties, rules, and restrictions should be administered
equally, especially between sexes.  This cliche is probably no
longer in frequent use due to the fact that it was abused heavily by
NOW during the early years of its existence.
                                        Bob (isl!meier@shasta)
P.S. <goose> ::= <female tarsi anser>
     <gander> ::= <male tarsi anser>
     <sauce> ::= <a fluid dressing added to roast>
     <tarsi anser> ::= <an edible fowl often prepared as a roast>

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 12:52:56 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: News from the Front, Volume I--Games

The following is garnered from SPACE/FANTASY GAMER and personal
sources:

RINGWORLD: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME (Chaosium)--this game has been
delayed by dinosaurs and "bad blood" which resulted in the firing of
the original designer (Rudy Kraft) and the hiring of a new group
(John Hewitt, Sherman Kahn, Sandy Petersen).  Release date is
questionable--some rumours place it at "early 1984" and others place
it at "summer 1985".  Whatever the release date is, this is one
project that I am looking forward to.  Apparently Niven has been
involved.  The game will be designed around Chaosium's Basic Role
Playing system, which was the basis for CALL OF CTHULHU and others.

Cover painting will be by RALPH MC QUARRIE, and will depict the
Ringworld arch, with giant grass-eater grazing below floating
cities.  Although Chaosium has not disclosed the cost of the
painting, Steve Perrin has said that it was "far more than we ever
paid for a cover."

THE LAST STARFIGHTER--a "micro adventure" from FASA will be released
this summer, based on this movie.

BATTLESTAR GALACTICA--one boardgame in May and two "micro
adventures" from FASA in the summer are being based on this
venerable (so to speak) television series.

STAR TREK THREE--a variety of "micro adventures" and supplements for
FASA's STAR TREK: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME will be coming this summer.

Happy Gaming!!!!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 1984  12:58 EST (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
To: pur-ee!uiucdcs!futrelle%Ucb-Vax@MIT-MC
Subject: Official DrWho Scarf - (nf)

        Question: would anyone know if the pattern uses British #9
needles, or American #9 needles?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 1984 1817-PST
From: Mike Gannis (offnet) at LOGICON
Subject: Re: Sure we can!

Steven Maurer (steven@ucb-vax) calims as "fact" the impossibility
("Period.") of FTL travel, based on Eisteinian Relativity.  Great!
As long as there is identical correspondence between relativity and
reality.  But suppose not?  Superluminal velocities *are* permitted
in theories that postulate a preferred frame of reference.  We can't
yet rule this out; indeed, there are some hints (e.g.  Mach's
principle) that this could be the case.  Would you class as fantasy
all stories involving sub-c time dilation effects simply because
they aren't predicted by Newtonian physics?  Newtonian physics is
"true" - it adequately describes the world around you, doesn't it?

Besides - are you claiming that the Darkover stories are entirely
self-consistent?

Mike Gannis

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #39
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Mar 84 1423-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Mar 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
          Books - Heinlein & Playboy Press & Catching Up &
                  A Story Query & Time After Time vs Time and Again,
          Films - Star Trek (6 msgs) & Star Wars (5 msgs),
          Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Mar 84 07:48:52 pst
From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!GSILBERBE@Berkeley
Subject: Re: re: Heinlein dislike

        You might try The Number of the Beast.  There is not as much
emphasis on sex, and the middle-aged man stays with an older woman.
(The partner-swapping does get going again in the last part of the
book, though.)
                                        --Glenn Silberberg
                                          Claremont, Cal.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 17:49:49 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Playboy press

     There was at least one other sf anthology put out by Playboy
Press: "Stories from the S File". This is composed of stories from
authors whose last name begins with S, such as Sturgeon, Sheckley,
Slesar, and others I can't remember. I got my copy at a flea market
in the mid-late 70's, so I have no idea of its availability.
Supposedly, the playboy people noticed that in their file of sf
stories, the one containing stories from authors whose name began
with S was the largest, and decided to use them only.  A few titles
that I can remember:

The Nail and the Oracle
Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?
The Parade
The Stew

The last title I am not sure of; I think Sturgeon's "If All Men Were
Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister" is in it too, but I'm
not sure.

There are lots more stories in it......

forgetfully yours
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: A number of short notes
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 84 00:15 EST

...catching up with a month or so of SFL can be tiring!  A few things
stand out in mind, or at least on the notepaper I keep handy...

Stephen King: Avoid "The Werewolf", a novella with illustrations by
  Berni Wrightson.  The illos are moderate quality for "modern
  comics", the story is at best a *1/2 - ** effort (not one of his
  best, but maybe one of his worst).  I'm not sure which is the
  worst, the shortness of the text, the quality of the text, or that
  I wasted $28 on this thing!

Stephen King: I just received a notice from Donald M. Grant
  Publishers (West Kingston, RI 02892) -- The Dark Tower: The
  Gunslinger is going into another printing, still only $20.  A
  ****1/2, but only because I don't give out *****'s.

Mark Rogers: Also in the Grant promo: The Adventures of Samurai
  Cat will be out soon ($20, deluxe edition $50). (Rogers does both
  the art and the text.) (This is another book for Cat SF people to
  notice.)  If you haven't been following the adventures of Miaowara
  Tomokato, this is a good place to start.  If you don't like
  Asprin's Myth(ing puns) series, skip this.  I'm ordering a copy
  this week.

Larry Niven: His universe.  Does anyone remember Niven's pre-
  Ringworld proposal "Down in Flames"?  Can anyone access Niven for
  permission to upload it to the net?

Moon of Endor revisited: At SIGGRAPH last year, ILM showed a short
  film loosely titled "How we did it with particle systems for
  SW:RoTJ and ST:TWoK".  During the movie, there was a definite and
  specific reference to "Endor's Moon".  It does seem nonsensical to
  refer to the moon of a planet long out of existence as "the Moon
  of Endor" (no language barrier here because it really isn't
  English they are speaking: we can assume that it has been
  syntactically translated to English as well as psychological
  reorientation to avoid stupid misconceptions).  We can assume they
  are on the moon of some body, and that body (Endor) still exists.

"The Right Stuff":  Just saw it last weekend.  Go see it.  It is
  probably the only movie up for Academy Awards which makes no
  pretention of airy artistic qualities, deep character studies,
  or personal growth.  Just fun, mixed in with some semi-history.
  P.S.  This is not a John Glenn film.  It's a Chuck Yeager film.
  Another note:  I saw "The Dresser" the following evening.  While
  also an excellent film, I don't recommend the pair as a twin
  billing.  They just don't mesh well.

Asprin:  "Hit or Myth", the fourth Skeeve book.  I like Phil Foglio
  illos better than Freas illos.  I don't think I ever liked Freas
  illos.  Asprin is holding out well -- the fourth volume is no
  better or worse than the first (which keeps it in the "light
  reading" category).  Quite surprising, considering what happens
  to most series by this number of volumes

Kotzwinkle (William):  "Trouble in Bugland".  More light fiction --
  my dissertation must be going well since I am unable to read
  anything even remotely dense.  "...a tribute to... Sherlock Holmes
  and... Dr. Watson."  "There is, however, one slight divergence
  from the original--Kotzwinkle's protagonists are all insects."
  Amusing nonserious tales following Inspector Mantis and his
  sidekick Dr. Hopper.

Anyone else find anything unusual?

-steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 06:21 MST
From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Story Query

The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them home is
definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out) Philip Dick -
will check title tonight.  I seem to recall there being 3 types of
enemy robot of which the last (and before the punchline
undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 84 16:04 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo%SCRC-VIXEN@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Time After Time/Time and Again

In V9 #38, Andy Leslie reprinted a list of sf that was originally
published in Playboy and later anthologized (by Playboy Press, I
assume).  The stories included the following:

    Double Take      Jack Finney     ! see P.S.

    P.S. Double Take is the short story that begat a GREAT book!
          (and a POOR film) Time after Time Shmaltzy but fun.

If memory serves me correctly, the Finney book in question is "Time
and Again", a fine time-travel novel that features a wonderfully
detailed recreation of another time and place (New York City in the
late 19th century).

"Time After Time", a Nicholas Meyer film, is in no way related to
the Finney book.  The movie takes place primarily in modern-day San
Francisco; the plot concerns Jack the Ripper's escape from Victorian
London via H.G. Wells's time machine, and Wells's pursuit of him.

I disagree with Andy on this film: although the plot is highly
implausible, the photography and acting (Malcolm McDowell, the
wonderful Mary Steenburgen, and David Warner) are first-rate, and
Meyer creates a high level of suspense.  All in all, one of my
favorite fairy tales.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 20:42:18 EST
From: Marla <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Answer to ST Question...

To add my two cents to the hundreds of pennies that will undoubtedly
pour in in answer to this --

  "...shields will be ineffectual."

  "Sauce for the goose"
                      ....is sauce for the gander.  In effect, Spock
was telling Saavek that whatever would affect the Enterprise would
be affecting the other ship as well, putting them both at the same
(dis)advantage.  "The odds will be even."  I suppose the quote
"what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" refers to when
two different things/people are in the same situation, or are
receiving the same treatment.

Marla <Selinger@Ru-Blue.Arpa>

------------------------------

Date: 28 February 1984 0836-est
From: Roz    <RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS>
Subject: Re:  ("Sauce for the goose") SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #37

    Date: 23 Feb 1984 09:40:11-EST
    From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY
    Subject: Star Trek Question

    I was watching ST-TWOK the other day (we have cable, and it
    really is one of the best ST's made, anyway...)

    Savaak (sp?): If we enter the nebula, shields will be
        ineffective

    Spock:          Sauce for the goose

    Savaak:         Eh?

    Spock:          The odds will be even.

    All right.  What is 'sauce for the goose'?

    >From the oft times puzzled world of Robert Zimmermann

    UUCP:   {...decvax!idis!mi-cec!cmu-cs-g!}raz@ampere
    ARPA:   raz%ampere@cmu-cs-g

We've (my family) always used that phrase to mean: "It doesn't
matter...that's extraneous or unneeded".  (Carry-over from the days
when goose was THE main dish for special/holiday meals...where there
was always so much food that sauce for the goose as almost "too
much"!)
                              Roz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 11:14 EST
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Sauce for the goose

"Sauce for the goose" is short for the expression "what's sauce for
the goose is sauce for the gander," meaning that both of them will
be at the same disadvantage.  Of course, the way the scene actually
turns out, a more appropriate expression would be "one man's food is
another man's poison."
                                        barmar

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 08:00:29-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!parsec!turner@Shasta
Subject: Reply SF-L 9:37

"What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander [same species,
male]" is an old saying indicating that prevailing circumstances
apply equally to everyone who finds himself in those circumstances.
It may more often be used to assert that one party should be
satisfied with what satisfies another party, I'm not real clear on
the connotations.  Spock may well have been playing on the notion
that Khan's goose was cooked if Enterprise's was.

MY problem is: does anybody think there's really a sensible
explanation for the nebula disabling the screens?  Does it react
with the particles it defends against, thus setting off
vision-obscuring fireworks or draining away energy?  P.S. I hope
that nebula was more convincing on the big screen (or ^$^ ...).

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 1984 1056-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #37

"sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"
"Whatever is good (or bad) for one antagonist is equally good (or
bad) for the other"

                --from the English-English phrasebook of Wang Zeep

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 14:59:45-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta
Subject: Sauce for the goose...

The complete saying is:

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Its connotation is: "A is to B as A is to B'".  This is an assertion
of similarity of relationship.  I was going to say that it meant: if
x is good for A then it is good for A', but the saying is actually
more general than just "good for".

As a matter of fact it can be restated in the following appalling
form:

If B' lies within a neighborhood of B which is of measure less than
epsilon, then F(A') will lie within a neighborhood of F(A) which is
of measure less than delta.

Now I don't mean to say that anyone who said this in the 18th
century had the fundamental theorem of calculus in mind.  I just
mean that this old saying expresses a vastly simple idea that is so
simple we can fully express it in mathematical terminology, unlike
most other meaningful, colloquial sentences.

                           Suford Lewis
            decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@shasta

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 84 16:06:21-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!intelca!t4test!chip @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Price We Pay

If you've ever wondered how much of those TV special events is event
and how much is filler, I've got the answer.  For the Sunday showing
of Star Wars, there were approximately 33.5 minutes of commercials
during the movie.

This number does not include the segments before and after the movie
itself.  As I see it, these did not interrupt the presentation of
the film.  However, it does include the comments which were inserted
just before commercials.  Fred Flintstone?  Give me a break.  Well,
at least they didn't have John Denver doing any of them.

  Chip Rosenthal, Intel/Santa Clara
  {pur-ee,hplabs,ucbvax!amd70,ogcvax!omsvax}!intelca!t4test!chip

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 84 10:40:02-PST (Wed)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!ron @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf)

After the rebels are allowed to fly their stolen shuttle, Tiderium,
thru the shield, Darth returns to the Death Star to advise the
Emperor of the situation.  Darth's exact line is:

  "A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on
   Endor."

  (The Emperor replies, "Yes, I know."
   Darth:  "My son is with them...")

  Based on Darth's first line, it would appear that the moon IS
  Endor.  (And perhaps it is serving as a SENTRY moon, since it
  holds the field generator...)

I've not read the book, so don't know how the dialog in ROTJ
compares with the paperback...

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 84 5:31:46-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??

  After watching Star Wars last night on T.V., I got to wondering if
there was any editing.... I think I spotted two places but I'm not
quite sure....

1) In the Rebel base, doesn't Luke meet Biggs before they get
   to the Death Star?
2) Wasn't Princess Leia's awarding a medal to Chewie after the
   Death Star was blown up ommitted?

  Maybe my memory is faulty, but I seem to remember seeing both of
those scenes at the theater.  Can anyone tell me if I am
hallucinating or not???

Ken Varnum
 (..decvax!dartvax!kenv)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 20:42:20-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxa!trough @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars???

I too didn't notice any missing scenes in CBS's Star Wars. However,
I did notice the extra titles "episode ??" and "A New Hope" (sorry,
I should know which episode (IV??), but I'd rather not get it
wrong). Anyway, those were not in the prints that I saw in theaters.

                                        Chris Scussel
                                        Bell Labs
                                        Naperville, Illinois

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 9:29:25-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!akgua!psuvax!starner @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??

I was unable to discover anything that was different in the TV
Version.  Chewie did not get a medal and Luke didn't meet Biggs
(although I think both of these were done in the novel and Luke did
meet Biggs in the National Public Radio adaption).

                Mark L. Starner
                Pennsylvania State University
                {allegra, burdvax, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!starner

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 04:54:01-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!raven1!bluejay@Shasta
Subject: Dr. Who's TARDIS

Does anybody know who we should be sending letters to to protest
changing Dr. Who's TARDIS? I'd like to throw in my two cents worth.
                                           - Bluejay Adametz
                                             Tue 28-FEB-1984 07:52

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #40
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 84 2006-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:
             Books - Heinlein & Smith & Book Request &
                     The Reluctant King,
             Films - Authors and Films & "Peter Pan" & Dark Star,
             Television - Edited Star Wars?? (3 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - FTL and Special Relativity & SF Cons List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Mar 84 13:25:47 est
From: Beth Gazouleas <beth%Upenn-ASP%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>

my first exposure to science fiction was Heinlein.  I still think
The Puppet Masters is one of the best invasion stories i've ever
read.  but his later work is almost impossible to read.  in Stranger
in a Strange Land his middle-aged protaganist (jubal harshaw)
says,"nine out of ten times when a woman is raped it's her own
fault."  i find this view extremely offensive, and it's only one
example of Heinlein's blatant sexism.  not to mention the fact that
his later works are just plain boring.  in Time Enough For Love we
spend the entire book listening to Lazarus Long pontificate.  i
never even tried to read The Number of The Beast, or Friday.  i'm
very disappointed, because he writes so well, but the stories get
lost in all the politics and endless discussion.

beth

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  2 Mar 1984 13:27:21-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN
From: 231-4076) <decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@Shasta>
Subject: Doc smith books and clones

There are still some E.E. Smith books, and clones, that haven't been
listed recently:
    Subspace Encounter is a sequel to Subspace Explorers, truly
written by Smith, but just recently published.
    Masters of the Vortex (a.k.a. The Vortex Blaster) has been
mentioned, but without much information.  It is set in the lensman
universe, but involves completely different characters and problems
than the actual lensman novels.  It is currently marketed as a book
in the lensman series, which is somewhat misleading.

The Stephen Goldin clones of Smith (D'Alembert series) started from
real Smith stories and notes.  The US and British editions of Best
of E. E. Doc Smith have a story which is essentially the first half
of the first book.  I think these are much better than the David A.
Kyle clones (Dragon Lensman, Lensman from Rigel, Z Lensman).  I
think the Kyle books border on unreadable, and I'm a fanatic Smith
fan.

Then there's the Lord Tedric stuff.... my library doesn't live in
the same building with this terminal.  More details on request (this
also is based on real Smith published during his lifetime).

I get a feeling of deja-vu; haven't I parsed this output before?

                David Dyer-Bennet
                DEC Marlboro
                ARPA: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@{berkeley | shasta}
                UUCP: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|mordor|purdue|shasta|
                        ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 2 March 1984 0809-est
From: Roz    <RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS>
Subject: Re: "dangerous children" (SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #39)

This is a story (book?) request.  Back in the nether reaches of time
(MY childhood!) I read a story (?) about children and population
control.  The story line went something like this:
    a couple decides they want children; they have to apply to the
government (?) for permission; the government has a
"child-trial-program" where prospective parents are allowed to
try-out having a child in the house and how they like being parents;
of course, the parents decide (ALWAYS!) not to have children--since
the trial children are behaving in the worst possible ways at all
times; seems there was a "kicker"...(take your choice:) 1) the
children were really robots, 2) it wasn't the government, but
aliens, and/or 3) the children were midgets acting like
"monster-kids"!
    Anybody remember who, what, etc?
    Thanks.
                              Roz

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 84 20:37:11-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!greg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Reluctant King: Vol I? - (nf)

Hang in there; it's possible to find the book.  I had to wait almost
two months to find the first volume, but I finally located it.  Now
I can't remember where I hid volumes two and three so I wouldn't
read them......

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 1:52:01-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: authors and films - (nf)

In article <597@ihuxq.UUCP> amigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) writes:
>Didn't Asimov write Fantastic Voyage?

Well, his autobiography Asimov admits writing the 'book' of
Fantastic Voyage, but he was constrained to follow the plot exactly.
He had to fight like hell just to get them to let him remove the
submarine from the man's body ('But Dr. A, the sub was, like,
crushed, y'know?').  His conclusion was that he would never do
another novelization again no matter how much money they offered
him, and the only GOOD part of the whole experience was meeting
Raquel Welch.

Berry Kercheval   Zehntel Inc.  (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 84 8:54:39-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!lipman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Odd couple

From: nacho::lynch  (And now for something completely different...)
Talk about s-t-r-a-n-g-e:

NPR's Morning Edition reported this morning that Steven Spielberg
may direct a film of "Peter Pan" starring -- are you ready? --
Michael Jackson.

BEEEE-ZARRE!

-- Bill Lynch
   USPS: Digital Equipment Corp / ZKO2-1/M11
         110 Spit Brook Road / Nashua, NH 03082
   Tele: (603) 881-2837
   UUCP: {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch
   ARPA: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@{Berkeley,SU-Shasta}

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 1:51:45-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Dark Star - (nf)

I second Rob Warnocks recommendation (if you can call it that) of
'Battle beyond the Stars'  With Robert Vaughn.  One of the funniest
parts is the way Vaughn RECREATES the role he played in 'The
Magnificent Seven', complete with the black leather glove he
carefully pulls on before using his blaster/six-gun.

Hilarious, if, as Rob warns, you're in the mood for it.

Berry Kercheval    Zehntel Inc.  (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 1984  18:36 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
To: decvax!dartvax!kenv@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Edited Star Wars??

        I don't think anything was wrong with your memory.  While I
didn't notice the first cut, I did notice the second, and, I think,
they also cut some of the dialogue either between Obi Wan and Solo
on the Falcon, or between Obi Wan and Vader later, I'm not sure
which.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 84 12:40:57-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxt!smeier @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars???

I don't recall seeing "Episode IV: A New Hope" at the original
release of Star Wars, but I have definitely seen it at theaters
during later releases. It also appears on the videotape I have seen,
and on HBO.  They must have stuck it on when they decided to make
"Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back."

I think the CBS showing was fully intact, however, I found all the
little speeches by CBS "personalities" about their reactions and
memories of Star Wars rather annoying and distracting.  I mean, who
cares what Kate Jackson or Valerie Bertinelli thought about the
movie, or about anything at all, for that matter?

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 84 7:13:58-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!bill @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars???

I thought that they had left out some of the captions in the bar
scene.  It appears they left in only the captions of the individual
that Han Solo blew away.  Is my memory right on this?


Bill Jefferys  8-%
Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712   (USnail)
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!utastro!bill   (uucp)
utastro!bill@ut-ngp                        (ARPANET)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984 02:41-PST
Subject: FTL and Special Relativity
From: meier@ISL at Sumex-Aim

        Steven Maurer and Mike Gannis have indicated that Special
Relativity disallows FTL travel.  As far as I am aware, the theory
indicates that mass, energy and information cannot travel AT the
speed of light.  I would appreciate any correction.

        I have felt that many authors have considered the problems
of FTL well.  "Doc" Smith used an inertialess drive, which avoided
the problem of mass crossing the light lines (though I'm not sure
how reasonable his treatment of the friction with intersteller gas
was).  Many authors have postulated a "jump" to FTL similar to the
quantum "tunnelling" effect.  Other authors, such as Larry Niven(?)
in "Maelstrom" postulated a rotating gravimetric field that could be
kept in balance so that tidal forces were not catastrophic.

        If one could view a spaceship travelling FTL one would see
it reduce its speed when it fired its engines to push it in the
direction that it was travelling.  In one sense this could be called
travel backward in time, but the equations of motion don't depend on
the direction of time.  As the spaceship continues firing, its mass
increases and so does its entropy.  If entropy is used as the
indicater of time (hence cause and effect) then entropy is seen to
be increasing in the normal fashion.  The pilot in the spaceship
would feel that all is normal, except that he would be amazed as you
read this message backwards and at a continually decreasing rate
(hence entropy continues to rise).

        A time-space diagram is divided by the light lines into
three separate regions, the Absolute Future, the Absolute Past, and
the Absolute Elsewhen.

                       \        ^ time   /
                        \       |       /
                         \      |      /
                    B     \ ABSOLUTE  /
           A               \ FUTURE  /
                            \   |   /
                             \  |  /
                              \ | /
                    ABSOLUTE   \|/   ABSOLUTE     space
        >-----------------------+----------------------->
                    ELSEWHEN   /|\   ELSEWHEN
                              / | \
                       E     /  |  \
                            /   |   \
                      D    /ABSOLUTE \
             C            /   PAST    \
                         /      |      \
                        /       |       \
                       /        ^        \

        Travel faster than light would be indicated on such a
diagram by a slope less than that of light (such as from A to B).
The dilation factor goes to zero on the light lines (or any parallel
line), which is why nonzero mass, energy, or information do not
propagate at the speed of light.  If any world line (track of some
particle on this diagram) must be continuous and smooth then it is
geometrically impossible for any particle to travel between the
ABSOLUTE ELSEWHEN and the ABSOLUTE PAST or FUTURE without going
parallel to the light lines.  However if a world line can be 'bent'
(such as C D E) so that it is continuous, yet has a discontinuous
slope, then it would be possible to travel from the ABSOLUTE
ELSEWHEN to the ABSOLUTE FUTURE without going parallel to the light
lines.  Such discontinuities in the ratio between distance and time
(speed) would be analagous to the discontinuities in the ratio
between orbital energy change and time (spin) encountered in quantum
mechanics.  Alternatively, if general relativity can be assumed
correct, then a spinning black hole might be used to effect a 'bend'
since it has an event horizon (light lines) that doesn't intersect
the singularity (NOW).  (For a more detailed desciption see
"Gravitation" by Mizner, Thorne, and Wheeler.)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 1984 2153-PST
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons list moved

File CONS.TXT has been moved from OFFICE-3, and will now be
available on the SRI-NIC host in file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT -- Also,
requests for copies of the file, updates to the list, requests for
update-notice mailing list changes, etc., should be addressed to
ZELLICH@SRI-NIC in the future instead of ZELLICH@OFFICE-3 or
RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #41
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Mar 84 2028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:
           Books - PLAYBOY Science Fiction and Fantasy &
                   Story Query Answered,
           Television - Edited Star Wars,
           Miscellaneous - FTL Misconceptions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  2 Mar 1984 07:00:52-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta
Subject: re: PLAYBOY Science Fiction and Fantasy

        Andy Leslie in V.9#38 gives the contents of THE PLAYBOY BOOK
OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY (1966, hc & pb) and asks if Playboy
published any other anthologies of this type. Well, you asked for
it, Andy:

THE DEAD ASTRONAUT (1971, pb only)

"The Dead Astronaut"  (J. G. Ballard)
"Skin-Deep" (Brian Rencelaw)
"Here Comes John Henry" (Ray Russell)
"The Wreck of the Ship John B."
"A Man for the Moon" (Leland Webb)
"Nine Lives" (Ursula K. LeGuin)
"Maelstrom II" (Arthur C. Clarke)
"Requiem on the Moon" (David Duncan)
"Spy Story" (Robert Sheckley)
"The Sensible Man" (Avram Davidson)


THE FIEND (1971, pb only)

"The Fiend" (Frederik Pohl)
"Welcome to the Monkey House" (Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.)
"The Ultimate Brunette" (Algis Budrys)
"Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?"
"You Can't Have Them All" (Charles Beaumont)
"Double Standard" (Fredric Brown)
"Adam Frost" (Vance Aandahl)
"The Crooked Man" (Beaumont)
"I Like Blondes" (Robert Bloch)
"The Mission" (Hugh Nissenson)
"I Remember Babylon" (Arthur C. Clarke)
"The Master Copy" (Frank Dobinson)
"Love, Incorporated" (Robert Sheckley)
"The Better Man" (Ray Russell)
"Lovemaking" (Frederik Pohl)

FROM THE "S" FILE (1971, pb only)

"The Nail and the Oracle" (Theodore Sturgeon)
"Melodramine" (Henry Slesar)
"The World of Heart's Desire" (Robert Sheckley)
"Victory Parade" (Henry Slesar)
"Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?" (Sheckley)
"Examination Day" (Slesar)
"Triplication" (Robert Sheckley)
"The Jam" (Henry Slesar)
"Same to You Doubled" (Robert Sheckley)
"After" (Henry Slesar)
"Cordle to Onion to Carrot" (Robert Sheckley)
"The Pool" (Jack Sharkey)
"Control Somnabule" (William Sambrot)
"Conversation with a Bug" (Jack Sharkey)
"The Man from Not-Yet" (John Sladek)
"Deathwatch" (Norman Spinrad)

THE FULLY AUTOMATED LOVE LIFE OF HENRY KEANRIDGE (1971, pb only)

"The Fully Automated Love Life of Henry Keanridge" (Stan Dryer)
"Space Opera" (Ray Russell)
"Mr. Swift and His Remarkable Thing" (Jeremiah McMahon)
"The Trouble with Machines" (Ron Goulart)
"The Killer in the TV Set" (Bruce Jay Friedman)
"Punch" (Frederik Pohl)
"A Miracle of Rare Device" (Ray Bradbury)
"Professor Hyde" (Thomas Berger)
"A Foot in the Door" (Bruce Jay Friedman)
"The Chimeras" (Arthur Koestler)
"A Man's Home is His Castle" (Ron Goulart)
"Number Eight" (Patrick McGivern)
"Put Them All Together, They Spell Monster" (Ray Russell)

LAST TRAIN TO LIMBO (1971, pb only)

"Last Train to Limbo" (Asa Baber)
"Man with a Past" (T. K. Brown III)
"Leviathan!" (Larry Niven)
"Word of Honor" (Robert Bloch)
"The Monster Show" (Charles Beaumont)
"The Lost City of Mars" (Ray Bradbury)
"The Illustrated Woman" (Ray Bradbury)
"December 28th" (Theodore L. Thomas)
"The Food of the Gods" (Arthur C. Clarke)
"Who Shall Dwell..." (H. C. Neal)
"The Splendid Source" (Richard Matheson)
"Puppet Show" (Fredric Brown)
"The Origin of Everything" (Italo Calvino)
"Papa's Planet" (William F. Nolan)
"On Location" (Thomas Baum)
"Dial `F' for Frankenstein" (Arthur C. Clarke)

MASKS (1971, pb only)

"Masks" (Damon Knight)
"The Hat Act" (Robert Coover)
"Perchance to Dream" (Beaumont)
"Death's Door" (Robert McNear)
"The Yellow Room" (John Cheever)
"Colorless in Limestone Caverns" (Allan Seager)
"Fortitude" (Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.)
"Untitled" (Ken W. Purdy)
"Winter in this Latitude" (Rick Rubin)
"A Breath of Lucifer" (R. K. Narayan)

THE PLAYBOY BOOK OF HORROR AND THE SUPERNATURAL (1967, hc & pb)

"Softly Walks the Beetle" (John Collier)
"Side by Side" (John Tomerlin)
"Heavy Set" (Ray Bradbury)
"The Sea Was Wet as Wet Could Be" (Gahan Wilson)
"Nasty" (Fredric Brown)
"Hey, Look at Me!" (Jack Finney)
"Sardonicus" (Ray Russell)
"For the Rich They Sing---Sometimes" (Ken W. Purdy)
"Sorcerer's Moon" (Charles Beaumont)
"I'm Yours" (Charles Schafhauser)
"First Anniversary" (Richard Matheson)
"Double Exposure" (John Reese)
"The Jam" (Henry Slesar)
"The Taste of Fear" (Hugh G. Foster)
"Beelzebub" (Robert Bloch)
"No Such Thing as a Vampire" (Richard Matheson)
"The Machine in Ward Eleven" (Charles Willeford)
"Virginia" (Calvin Tomkins)
"The Academy" (David Ely)
"Black Country" (Charles Beaumont)
"The Manuscript of Dr. Arness" (Gahan Wilson)
"The Traveling Salesman" (Bloch)
"The Party" (William F. Nolan)
"Weird Show" (Herbert Gold)
"Burnt Toast" (Mack Reynolds)
"The Life Work of Juan Diaz" (Ray Bradbury)
"Rendezvous" (John Christopher)
"Comet Wine" (Ray Russell)

PLAYBOY'S STORIES OF THE SINISTER AND STRANGE (1969, pb only)

"The Mannichon Solution" (Irwin Shaw)
"Wise Child" (John Wyndham)
"The Dark Music" (Charles Beaumont)
"Welcome to the Monkey House" (Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.)
"Somewhere Not Far from Here" (Gerald Kersh)
"The Investor" (Bruce Jay Friedman)
"Room 312" (G. L. Tassone)
"Ripples" (Ray Russell)
"The Golden Frog" (Ken W. Purdy)
"The Dispatcher" (Gerald Green)
"The Annex" (John D. MacDonald)

SAGITTARIUS (1971, pb only)   (all stories by Ray Russell)

"Sagittarius"
"The Room"
"Naked in Xanadu"
"Ripples"
"Comet Wine"
"A Night in the Byzantine Palace"
"Sardonicus"
"Ounce of Prevention"

TRANSIT OF EARTH (1971, pb only)

"Transit of Earth" (Arthur C. Clarke)
"The Man in the Rorschach Shirt" (Ray Bradbury)
"Button, Button" (Richard Matheson)
"The Machineries of Joy" (Ray Bradbury)
"Waste Not, Want Not" (John Atherton)
"The Invasion" (Avram Davidson)
"Control Somnambule" (William Sambrot)
"Bernie the Faust" (William Tenn)
"Let There Be Light" (Arthur C. Clarke)
"Cephalotron" (Thomas M. Disch)
"Speed Trap" (Frederik Pohl)
"It Didn't Happen" (Fredric Brown)
"Souvenir" (J. G. Ballard)

WEIRD SHOW (1971, pb only)

"Weird Show" (Herbert Gold)
"The Machine in Ward Eleven" (Charles Willeford)
"A Recluse and His Guest" (Tennessee Williams)
"Double Exposure" (John Reese)
"I Do Not Like Thee, Dr. Feldman" (Henry Slesar)
"The Academy" (David Ely)
"Accidents of a Country Road" (Roger Dionne)
"The Party" (William F. Nolan)
"By Appointment Only" (Richard Matheson)
"Nasty" (Fredric Brown)
"A Life in the Day of" (Frank M. Robinson)
"I'm Yours" (Charles Schafhauser)
"Softly Walks the Beetle" (John Collier)
"The Taste of Fear" (Hugh G. Foster)
"The Convert" (Ken W. Purdy)
"Xong of Xuxan" (Ray Russell)

        All of these books are out-of-print, but they're not very
hard to find in used book stores if you want to go looking for them.
I'm missing only one of them (PLAYBOY'S STORIES OF THE SINISTER AND
STRANGE) and the information for its contents came from William
Contento's INDEX TO SCIENCE FICTION ANTHOLOGIES AND COLLECTIONS
(Boston: G. K. Hall, 1978), which incidentally also lists which
issues of *Playboy* these stories appear in.


<"Bibliography is         --- jayembee
  my business">               (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 84 10:33 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo%SCRC-VIXEN@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Story query (killer cute kids) in V9, #39

    Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 06:21 MST
    From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
    Subject: Story Query

    The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them
    home is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out)
    Philip Dick - will check title tonight.  I seem to recall there
    being 3 types of enemy robot of which the last (and before the
    punchline undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells?

I think this is a Gordon Dickson story that appeared in a collection
published about ten years ago by the SFBC.  The book is no longer in
my collection, but I believe it was called "Ancient, Mine Enemy".
Can't remember the story's title, either.  Good story, snappy
ending.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 84 14:13:01-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!wookie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars???

The Star Wars we saw on CBS was exactly the reissued version from
20th Century.  Nothing was left out and nothing was added.  The
title was changed for the re-release of Star Wars since the other
versions were on hand and it was clear this was no longer a one shot
deal.  So in the re-release the orginal 70 mm version was updated to
the new title.

By the way the CBS version was the updated original 70mm as it
lacked the changed lines of Aunt Beru, the added line for
C3P0,lacked the better synchronized sound effects, used single
sideband communications for the death star battle etc. etc. as
previously discussed.

                                Keith Bauer
                                White Tiger Racing

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984 12:27:06-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!sarah!a_vesper@Shasta
Subject: FTL misconceptions

My first reaction to Steven Maurer's letter (SFL v 9 # 36) was to
send a brief note with my own comments on possibility/impossiblity
of FTL travel to the SFL newsletter.  My second reaction was a
feeling that the subject has been discussed enough for this year.

I eventually decided to go through some previous SFL issues (volume
9 only 'cause that's what was on-line) and point out all discussions
of FTL, give a (very) brief summary and add my comments after each.
I searched for "FTL" so if there was any discussion that did not use
that abbreviation I did not pick it up.

Mon, 16 Jan, # 12 : Ken Varnum <decvax!dartvax!kenv @ ucb-vax>

    Does time slow down as you approach the speed of light (c)
    and go backwards if you go faster than light?

The answer to the first half of the question is very well explained
in the next citation.  The second half cannot be answered at this
time -- we just don't know because we don't any experimental data.

Mon, 16 Jan, # 13 : Bruce Giles <decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ ucb-vax>

An excellent discussion of special relativity, length contraction
and time dilation, but longer than I want to include here.

Wed, 18 Jan, # 15 : Joe Buck <buck@nrl-css>

    "Special relativity shows that if FTL travel is
    possible, time travel (and causality violation) must
    occur as well."

    "Actually, relativity doesn't explicitly prohibit FTL
    travel. It just shows that an object with mass can't
    be accelerated continuously from a velocity below c to
    one above c."

I believe that special (and general) relativity simply don't say
anything about FTL travel, but only STL travel.  The definitions
that Einstein came up with for 'time' and 'simultaneity' are paired
directly with relativity and the STL universe.  A new theory showing
how FTL travel is possible would have to redefine those terms, and
probably 'cause' and 'effect' as well.

Einstein also showed that it takes more and more energy to
accelerate a body (with mass) closer and closer to c and that it
would take infinite energy to accelerate a body TO c.  Assuming that
you must accelerate from below c THROUGH c to above c gives you the
impossibility of FTL travel. (There is a discussion of Tachyons
later in this note.) As an aside, bodies without mass (e.g. photons)
always travel at c in a vacuum.

Sun, 22 Jan, # 17 : Jeff Duntemann <duntemann.wbst @ PARC-MAXC.ARPA>

    Postulates a starship drive which accelerates all
    particles within a given volume equally.  "This violates
    no physical laws that I know of."

    With 2000 or 3000 G acceleration a trip to the nearer
    stars becomes a matter of weeks or months rather than
    centuries.  (Personal time rather than universe time.)

I don't have my copy of *Have Space Suit, Will Travel* by Robert A.
Heinlein with me, but in that novel RAH shows that a constant
acceleration of less than 10 G is sufficient to get to the nearer
stars in a matter of 'weeks or months'.  2000 or 3000 G would
probably get you there within seconds.  I can't do that kind of math
in my head so I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader.

Tue, 24 Jan, # 18 : Eric G. Stern
    <hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!sbcs!bnl!stern @ Ucb-Vax>

    Eric comments that the starship drive which accelerates
    all particles within a given volume equally requires
    communicating a change in velocity instantly over a
    non-zero distance, which is prohibited by special
    relativity.

Oh well. TANSTAAFL.

Thu, 23 Feb, # 36 : Steven Maurer <sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax>

    "Thus, though it is possible for "Psychism" to exist,
    even "magic" (as long as it is in another universe), FTL
    cannot." "Period."

Bunk.  Why can't FTL exist in another universe?  Call it "magic" if
you want.  Why can't FTL exist in our universe?  It might, but we
don't know how yet.  Personally I don't expect to see it possible in
my lifetime, and maybe never (although 'never' is a very strong
word).

Hard science fiction often takes a theory just past where it breaks
down (such as relativity and 'c') and declares that reality works
differently from there.  FTL is prime science fiction material in
this light.

Tue, 28 Feb, # 38 : Mike Gannis <offnet at LOGICON>

    Mike compares Einsteinian relativity to Newtonian
    physics: "Would you class as fantasy all stories
    involving sub-c time dilation effects simply because
    they aren't predicted by Newtonian physics?"

I agree. Newtonian physics cannot handle time dilation.  Einsteinian
relativity cannot handle FTL.  Both are 'true' in that they are
useful descriptions of the 'world' with certain limitations.

I have not seen any mention of Tachyons in the recent past, so I
will bring up the subject myself.  If you take Einstein's theories
and turn them around slightly, you have a universe where all massive
objects travel faster than c, it takes energy to slow them down
towards c and infinite energy to slow them down to c.  This universe
is called a Tachyon universe and the particles in it are Tachyons.
This gives rise to the following FTL drive principle: change matter
into tachyons going in the right direction, travel the distance then
change back into normal matter.  In order to do this, you need (1)
the normal universe, (2) the tachyon universe, (3) some way to
convert between normal matter and tachyons and (4) someplace to
stand while doing the conversion.  (4) implies that the normal
'universe' and the tachyon 'universe' are only subspaces of the
'real universe'.  The normal 'universe' would then not have to obey
conservation laws, which are tricky things to get around when all
that normal matter/energy disappears (and reappears somewhere else
-- presumably with different potential energy).

Wormholes in space are also convenient FTL 'drives'.  Unfortunately,
this also implies a space larger than the 'universe' within which
the 'universe' is folded.  And you still have to do something about
conservation.  (Simply saying that conservation doesn't hold is
tacky and doesn't help much anyway.)

Sorry for running on to such a length, but I hope I cleared up some
of the misconceptions. I will close with my recollection of an old
limerick:

    There once was a woman named Bright,
    Whose speed was far faster than light,
        She set out one day,
        In a relative way,
    And came back the previous night.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #42
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 84 1320-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:
                Books - Brin & Dickson & Heinlein &
                        Book Requests Answered (2 msgs),
                Films - Superman II & Star Trek III & Star Wars (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 84 17:34:23 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: THE PRACTICE EFFECT, by David Brin

Just released:

THE PRACTICE EFFECT, by David Brin (Bantam, $2.75, ISBN
0-553-23992-9):

This one has been eagerly awaited, and is actually in book stores in
New Jersey, so one can only assume that it is available elsewhere
(as NJ is the end of the Known Universe...).

It looks quite interesting.  To give a brief hint of the plot, I
quote from the opening "introductory" page:

"Dennis Nuel was the first man to walk through a zievatron.  But he
never expected it to strand him on such a strange world!  First
there was the baffling technology of the land of Coylia--a weird
blend of the supermodern and the caveman primitive.  Then there was
the Warlord Kremer, whose plans to conquer everything in sight
seemed to involve Dennis's participation, whether he wanted it or
not!  Dennis's only allies were a beautiful captive princess, a
disobedient robot, and a little alien creature with a warped sense
of humor!  Somehow, with their help, Dennis would have to find a way
to make Earth science work on a world where practice REALLY meant
perfect...or else!"

Looks very interesting, aside from all the exclamation marks that
they seem to need.  I'll post a review as soon as I've read it, I'm
sure that this book will mark the start of another long series of
comments!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 84 17:27:56 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: New Book from Dickson

Just picked up, and just published:

JAMIE THE RED, by Gordon R. Dickson (ACE, $2.95, ISBN0-441-38245-2).

Readers with good memory may recall that the character of Jamie the
Red appeared in the first Thieve's World book.  The story that he
actually appeared in (if memory serves) was not written by Dickson,
but Dickson supplied the character...

The book does not indicate if it is connected with the TW series,
but I'm sure I'll find that out when I read it....

More to come!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 84 14:27:17-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: heinlein and FRIDAY

A friend of mine not connected to the net wrote this up on the
subject of Heinlein and Friday.

*********************************FLAME ON***************************

In all the flaming of Heinlein on the net, not one person has stated
the real objection I have to FRIDAY: in real life, women do not fall
in love with their rapists.  (In fact, no one has even mentioned the
beginning or end of the novel at all.)  Most women are not so calm
and collected as Friday, and while she may be SUPPOSED to be
extraordinary, Heinlein does a grave disservice to all of us who are
not such "together" people.  I suppose most of Heinlein's characters
rise to the circumstances much better than we would; it's just that
in all the other circumstances, I can at least imagine that I would
do as well.  I think it's an important consideration.  That is not
to say that I believe that all fiction must be "politically
correct," just that one must consider the consequences of one's
words.  Heinlein may very well leave men with the mistaken
impression that rape is no worse than purse-snatching.  This is what
pisses me off about FRIDAY.

*********************************FLAME OFF**************************

For what its worth, I have a slightly different view on this
subject. I agree that the rape was gratuitous and unlikely, stuck in
to "arouse the audience(of men)." Friday even says at one point the
"rape is a poor interrogation technique," which happens to be true.
It seems unlikely that supposed professionals would waste what turn
out to be critical minutes(more likely hours, the scene is dragged
out forever)before moving on to something more likely to be
effective. I call this gratuitous.

The more important point is that given the character of Friday, she
is unlikely to forgive the rapist as easily as she does.  A much
more likely outcome would be her shooting him the instant she
recognizes him, and perhaps feeling a very small twinge of regret
upon hearing that he's supposed to have been one of the "good guys."
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it happens too quickly
and with too little development to have a shred of credibility.

What is being requested here is a reasonable standard of
characterization, consistant with actual human psychology.  Friday
was not portrayed as a masochist, nor as a victim of the "Patty
Hearst" syndrom, nor were any other reasonable motives put forward.
Hence her behavior seems absurd. Nobody forgives that easily.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Mar 84 20:23:27 EST
From: Kris Hammond <Hammond@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Killer Baby Robots

We seem to have a confusion between two robot baby stories right
now.

From Minsky we have the request:

   1.  There is a guerilla war, and there are nice little kids who
   are hungry and pathetic.  When you take them home they blow up.
   Maybe Philip Dick or Damon Knight?

From Roz Tayler we have the request:

   I read a story (?)  about children and population control.  The
   story line went something like this: a couple decides they want
   children; they have to apply to the government (?)  for
   permission; the government has a "child-trial-program" where
   prospective parents are allowed to try-out having a child in the
   house and how they like being parents; of course, the parents
   decide (ALWAYS!)  not to have children--since the trial children
   are behaving in the worst possible ways at all times; seems there
   was a "kicker"...(take your choice:) 1) the children were really
   robots, 2) it wasn't the government, but aliens, and/or 3) the
   children were midgets acting like "monster-kids"!

Deryk Barker has pointed out correctly that Minsk is looking for a
Philip Dick story:

   The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them home
   is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out) Philip
   Dick - will check title tonight.  I seem to recall there being 3
   types of enemy robot of which the last (and before the punchline
   undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells?

But for unknown reasons Jonathan Ostrowsky has given a pointer to
the second story, (by Gordon Dickson), while refering to it as the
first:

       Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 06:21 MST
       From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
       Subject: Story Query

       The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them
       home is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out)
       Philip Dick - will check title tonight.  I seem to recall
       there being 3 types of enemy robot of which the last (and
       before the punchline undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring
       any bells?

   I think this is a Gordon Dickson story that appeared in a
   collection published about ten years ago by the SFBC.  The book
   is no longer in my collection, but I believe it was called
   "Ancient, Mine Enemy".  Can't remember the story's title, either.
   Good story, snappy ending.

The story Minsky is looking for is part of a loose set of stories by
Philip Dick, that concern the automation of war and the development
of robot bombs that look like people.  Its title is "Second Variety"
and is part of Dick's automation paranoia series.  It was last
collected in a "Best of P.  K.  Dick" but was originally
anthologized in "The Variable Man".  In this story, robots who look
like people wander the earth blowing up people and each other.  They
come in two known, and thus avoidable, types: The first variety is
refered to as the "wounded soldier" while the third variety is
called "David", a lost little boy with a teddy bear.  The plot
revolves around a group of semi-strangers trying to figure out which
of them is the "second variety".  It has a straightforward Philip
Dick ending, in which all our paranoic fantasies come true (it turns
out that there are four varieties, not three).  It is one of the
many works in which Dick argues that automation will eventually
result in machines warring against each other as the end result of
their initial programming.  This basic theme is also used in the
short stories "Nanny" and "Autofac".

The other story, the one that Roz Tayler is looking for, is one by
Gordon Dickson called, "The Education of Tigress McCartal(sp)".
This concerns a government regulation stipulating that before a
couple is allowed to have children they must care for a robot baby
that records the quality of their care for one month.  The robot
actively tries to make the couple's life a living hell by destroying
their home and keeping them up all night.  When they finally give up
the robot goes into a non-baby mode and produces a document for them
to sign waiving all future rights to parenthood.  The stinger is
that the entire program a actually controlled by the Chinese, who
invade the US when the population consists entirely of people in
their 70's, all of whom decided not to have children.  An odd detail
that sticks in my head is the fact that the babies were picked up
from offices in the Empire State Building.

Sorry to take so long but I feel that the world will be a better
place to live in once people learn to identify the different killer
baby robot stories at our disposal.

Kris Hammond

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  5 Mar 1984 15:19:54-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!nylander (Chip)
From: <decwrl!rhea!orphan!nylander@Shasta>
Subject: Re: "dangerous children" book request (SFL V9 #40)

The story was "The Education of Tigress McCardle", written by Cyril
Kornbluth and published 1957 in "Venture".

It's a great story (as were most of Kornbluth's), much reprinted.
The "kicker" you were wondering about is that the trial children are
robots controlled from government "monsterous children" center.

I don't have any kids, but I've been in close proximity to a couple
of rug-rats for the last few years, and Kornbluth had an unusually
good handle on the behavior of babies and new parents.

-chip nylander

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 84 12:11:48-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!nmtvax!ande
From: rsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Superman II - More Questions?

In reply to Jerry Greenberg:

    Q: "Why does Superman have to lose his powers when he falls in
        love with a human?"

    A:  The answer to this is given in a hilarious pseudo-newspaper
        article written by Larry Niven in his book, ALL THE MYRIAD
        WAYS.  The article is titled "Man of Steel, Woman of
        Kleenex" and describes in graphic (and gory) detail EXACTLY
        what would happen if Superman tried to mate with a human
        female without (temporarily, at least) getting rid of his
        powers.  As Niven says, Superman can put a dent
        two-inch-thick steel just by pinching it slightly.  Think of
        what that would mean to a female body when Supes starts to
        forget himself in the midst of passion and . . . well, you
        get the idea.

        Niven also goes into related areas such as the genetics of
        humans and kryptonians and the problems involved when a
        human woman tries to give birth to a kryptonian baby.

                                             andersen@nmtvax

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 84 17:24:15 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Nimoy Talks About STIII

The following was found in the NEWARK STAR-LEDGER, on Sunday, March
4, 1984

NIMOY DEBUTS AT HELM

By Marilyn Beck

Hollywood--Making the leap from directing episodic TV to helming a
special effects-laden science fiction film extravaganza with a cast
of hundreds--of "aliens"--seems more than sufficient cause for an
onslaught of anxiety attacks.

Not for Leonard Nimoy.

"I don't think I'd say I was nerve-wracked.  I was excited more than
anything else," says the man who's been bringing us Earth's favorite
Vulcan, the admirable Spock, for 17 years.

Nimoy, of course, is talking about STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR
SPOCK, the June 1 Parmount release that marks his big-screen
directorial debut.

He's already earned his stripes for bringing in the complicated
feature on time (49 days) and within budget ($16 million, which is
not particularly expensive for high sci-fi).

"The work was hard, very hard.  We had a big cast, lots of people.
The total number of extras must have run in the hundreds.  It was
tremendously ambitious physically, with special effects that had to
be done on the stage as well as those to be added later--effects
that would take days to reset if they didn't work out right the
first time.  We had earthquakes, fissures with fire and steam
pouring out of them, a snowstorm...I think the only thing we didn't
have was rain.

Lovers of Star Trek have already been trying to find out if
portraying Mr. Spock (who met his apparent demise in the last
installment of the saga) is one of the things he did.  Though Nimoy
freely discussed the possibility of resuming his role with the
studio when SEARCH FOR SPOCK was in its idea stage, now he responds
to mention of Spock's future with amused evasiveness, a sidelong
look and a grin.

"The big questions started with 'Is Spock coming back?'  Next it
was, 'If he comes back, what form will we see him in?'  And then the
next phase, the very clever ploy, 'How did it feel to direct
yourself?'  All I can say is we are clinging to the idea that it
will be fun for the audience to see what if any Spock there is in
this film."

--30--

So, there you have it folks, the latest rumours....

See you on line on June 1!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  6 Mar 1984 07:16:05-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!gigi!brendan (Brendan E. Boelke)
From: <decwrl!rhea!gigi!brendan@Shasta>
Subject: Rebel Alliance unfair to Wookies!

        Chewie most definitely did NOT get a medal at the end of
ANH.  It was one of the few things about the movie I found
inconsistent.  If the alliance is all FORCEfull (holy?) and good,
how could they show such obvious bigotry?

/BEB
E-NET   GIGI::BRENDAN
ARPA    ECG.BEB@DEC-MARLBORO

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Mar 84 11:52:32 EST
From: Vicki Kanrek <vkanrek@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: Re: It *is NOT* ENDOR

ENDOR is constantly referred to as the "Sentry Moon"; it just seems
that the pronunciation of the word "Sentry" gets all screwed up and
at times sounds like "Century".  (Sort of like Checkov in ST-TWOK
talking about 'Alpha Ceti' and here I was wondering what "Alpha
City" was!)

In the book, ik, ENDOR IS the moon (to the best of my recollection;
only read it twice).  But, having watched and replayed ROTJ many
times I'm convinced that, after all is said and done, etc., etc.,
ENDOR IS THE SENTRY MOON.

For those who have NOT read the book, how surprising was it REALLY
to see Darth's turnaround to the 'good' side at the end of the
movie?  The book gives a decent (albeit long-winded) background and
lead-up to it, but the movie just (comparatively) jumped into it.
I'm wondering what the non-pre-read audience reaction was?

VJK [vjk@bbn-unix]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #43
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Mar 84 1426-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Mar 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:
         Books - Bradley & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Kornbluth &
                 Niven & Wallace & Robots (2 msgs) & Book Reviews,
         Films - Star Wars,
         Television - Dr. Who & A Query

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 84 17:06:27-PST (Mon)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Preachy authors continued..... - (nf)

>     Well I'm a male and I enjoyed Thendara House.  As I read the
>   book I took no offense, but then maybe that was because the
>   author wasn't talking about me.  Were you like one of the
>   characters in the book?  Is that why you took offense?


        No, I guess I just take offense easily.  In the same
    vein, I am unlike any character in any GOR book I have ever
    looked at, but also take offense at the plastic portrayals of
    people.  The major difference between GOR and Thendra House
    simply seems to be the thrust of the novels: One creates an
    absolutely sexist society to revel in sado-mashochism, one
    creates an absolutely sexist society, to attempt to show that it
    is no different than our own.  Both are such bad writing, they
    made me barf.

>       I though that Zimmer wrote an excellent book portraying a
>   clash of cultures.  Keep in mind that she isn't necessarily
>   writing about our culture (although I'm not so sure it doesn't
>   fit in many cases).  The plot was very well written and really
>   made me think about culture clashes and looking beyond what most
>   of us take for granted.  (and i'm not just refering to
>   male-female relationships...  i'm refering to thousands of
>   pseudo behaviors that society has created).

        It would help Marion Zimmer Bradley, if she ever read
    any NON-FICTION books on the same subject.  Perhaps she might
    wake up from her fantasy long enough to realize that there are
    quite a few present day culture clashes, considerably more
    interesting than her own.  More interesting because they are not
    totally centered around male-female relationships, and because
    they are REAL.  (In Thendara House, not a man from either
    culture is presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of her
    books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he are
    living in.  -- Perhaps if she (or you) read anything by Fernia
    about Islamic culture for instance, you might actually loosen up
    that feminist cultural bigotry that you have.

>       But I suppose that if you were preoccupied with worrying
>   about your male ego, you might have missed that.

         This is an example of "feminist cultural bigotry".  I
    dislike that preachy book, therefore I am "preoccupied with
    worrying about" my MALE ego.....

Steven Maurer

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 84 19:42:14-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: heinlein and FRIDAY

        "In all the flaming of Heinlein on the net, not one person
        has stated the real objection I have to FRIDAY: in real
        life, women do not fall in love with their rapists ...  Most
        women are not so calm and collected as Friday, and while she
        may be SUPPOSED to be extraordinary, Heinlein does a grave
        disservice to all of us who are not such "together" people
        ... Heinlein may very well leave men with the mistaken
        impression that rape is no worse than purse-snatching."

Throughout the book, Heinlein hammers away at the theme that Friday
did not consider herself to be a human being and had a far different
attitude toward sex from that of "real" women.  This was instilled
in her during her upbringing as an "artificial person", the product
of genetic engineering.  During her schooling, she was told daily
that she was not a real person.  She was also given extensive
training in "doxology", the study of how to please a man in bed, so
that when she became of age and her contract was sold, she could
serve as a concubine.

I think that the purpose of the rape scene is to emphasize this
indifference.  Friday really did believe rape to be no worse than
purse-snatching.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 84 19:29:35-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: heinlein and FRIDAY - (nf)

Re. the criticism of Friday for falling in love with her rapist:

I don't think this is well taken.  For one thing, ordinary human
psychology doesn't necessarily extrapolate to Friday.  For example,
it's clear that the rape was not (as such) traumatic to her; with
her mind control discipline, she could and did simply turn it off.
In that long scene of which the rape was part, she dispassionately
recounts the several responses she considered making to the rape.
The only rapist with whom she was upset (and very much so) was the
guy who was unclean and slapped her around.  So I don't find her
response to Mac/Pete/Percival all that odd, although it was kinda
quick.  Even that is understandable; she tends to respond to other
APs wherever and whenever she finds them (witness that gallant
character who runs away from her the second time she crosses from
Canada to California).  Despite her statements that APs don't
particularly stick together, every time she discovers one, they
stick together -- Mac, Tilly, whatsisname....  So it does seem to be
in character.  As for the rape being stuck in to "arouse the
audience (of men)", I think this is nonsense.  It certainly was not
described in a way that I think was erotic or arousing to anyone.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 1984 14:47:18-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: childcare practice

   "The Education of Tigress McArdle", by C. M. Kornbluth, has a
requirement that everybody spend time caring for a robot baby
(radio-controlled by an adult [sadist]) before being allowed to
reproduce. The population basically disappears in a generation.
   I've also run across a Sturgeon story in which a couple makes a
deal with a fairy who for misbehavior was sentenced to several years
duty as a changeling; they have to prove their capacity for
responsibility to a prunish (sic) aunt, preferably by caring for a
child, in order to get an inheritance?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 84 13:18:21 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Niven's Down in Flames

        Larry Niven's "Down in Flames" is now available at Rutgers
via the ANONYMOUS log in of FTP.  The file name is
Down-in-flames.txt and comes to you courtesy of Don Woods.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 1984 09:05:38-EST
From: Jim.Washburn at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: worst sf book ever

I just happend to pick up a book here at work, which appeared
abandoned and since it was a long night I decided to read it.
Fifteen pages later I also abandoned it.  This had to be the worst
SF book ever written.  It is called Heller's Leap by Ian Wallace.
Has anyone out there read it?  Maybe it was meant as a joke or
satire but it seemed to be written by an eleven year old who had
slept through all his elementary school english and science courses.
Has this person written any other "works"?  I would be interested in
hearing any comments.
                                        --Jim Washburn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Mar 84 08:45 MST
From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: What do robots do on their day off?

I am running a campaign for a game called DROIDS.  It is a
role-playing game where the players are intelligent machines left
after a war wipes out the human race (if you would like more info on
the game, let me know).  What I would like to have are the titles
and/or plots of SF stories dealing with robots, machine
intelligence, etc.  which are existing in some sort of society of
their own, without human intervention.  What sort of societies do
robots create, what do they do on their day off, that sort of
thing......

             thanks for any info

             >RUSTY<                  (RNeal.dm8%pco -at cisl)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 1984 14:37:07-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: killer kid robots

   definitely PK Dick, title something like "Type 2" (new series of
humanoid robots with built-in bombs starts turning up; someone
looking at shards finds a #1 and a #3, so which of the randoms
(refugees, etc.) he's seen is #2?  Very early (appears in an
anthology from the mid-50's). The robots include a woman and a cute
kid with a teddy bear.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 7 Mar 84 19:32:33-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.Trei@CU20B>
Subject: Brin & May reviews.

THE ADVERSARY, Julian May (PAN 0-330-28031-7, 1.95 lbs., about 470
pp., pbk) May 1984

THE PRACTICE EFFECT, David Brin (BANTAM 0-553-23992-9, $2.75, 277
pp., pbk) April 84

        These two have been killing my sleep recently.

        Its tough to mention ANY plot elements in THE ADVERSARY
without committing a spoiler. I will therefore try not to mention
any.
        Anyone who has been following the field over the past couple
of years has been aware of the Julian May's 'Saga of the exiles'.
starting with 'The Many-Colored Land' and continuing through 'The
Golden Torc' and 'The Non-Born King', he has built up an enormous
panorama of places, cultures, and people. The characters are finely
drawn, and stand out distinct from each other, a vital thing in a
work this long with literally dozens of major players.
        In case you've gafiated for the past couple of years here is
a thumbnail sketch of whats going on:
        Roughly a century from now, Earth has been absorbed into
'The Galactic Milieu', a galaxy wide society of telepaths.  Earth's
own people are rapidly developing psychic powers, and all is (more
or less) calm, peaceful, and a little bit dull.
        One way out of the boredom is to pass through a time gate
which a solitary scientist has built in his basement in near Lyons,
France. It lets out in the same location, about 6 million years
earlier.  It's strictly a one way trip; anything that tries to pass
in the other direction ages 6 million years and crumbles to dust.
Still, a lot of people have taken this route to a newer, and
hopefully more interesting world.
        Unfortunately, the Earth during the Pliocene Interglacial,
while pleasant, is occupied by two races of alien religious refugees
from another galaxy. Their culture and appearance is amazingly
related to Celtic mythology, and they use their psychic powers to
put the humans coming through the gate into a more or less
benevolent serfdom. This goes on until the start of the first book,
when the main human characters of the story pass through the gate.
The rest of the books mainly deal with the social upheavals, wars,
politics, geophysical disasters, and sundry other excitements
happening largely as a result of these characters.
        May's canvas is enormous; he has three races, psychic
powers, two time frames, and about 1700 pages to fill. There are
enough battles, plots, descriptions, travels, adventures, and
characters to populate another tetrology, and they all blend
together so smoothly that no one character or group seem to
dominate. Like a fugue, all contribute to an amazingly vivid created
world, with things moving along so fast you don't have time to catch
your breath. I stayed up late several nights to finish this, and
thought it well worth the effort. This could reasonably be called
'The Thundering Conclusion of The Saga of the Exiles' if it were not
for the hint of a prequel trilogy in the offing.

        This is not to say there are no flaws. With at least half a
dozen subplots, I kept getting lost. Minor characters drop out of
sight for hundreds of pages, then suddenly step back into the
limelight. Also, the premises of the series as a whole strains
credulity; the aliens and the humans can actually breed together!
The explanation given for this I find inadequate, though I was able
to suspend my disbelief, it was a strain. Nor was the explanation of
the celtic content of the aliens culture truly adequate.

        Overall, I can only say that I really enjoyed THE ADVERSARY,
and it will not let down anyone who has been following the series. I
would not recommend it as a book for anyone who is just starting in
SF, or who has not read the previous volumes.

        David Brin's THE PRACTICE EFFECT is another well-crafted tale.
It is far shorter than May's opus, and works on a far smaller canvas.
In a conscious tribute to the Harold Shea (Incomplete Enchanter)
stories of DeCamp and Pratt, he has a more or less ingenious young
man explore a world with slightly different physical laws; in this
case the effect of the title. Any item, if used with intent, tends to
improve with use; knives get sharper, paths in the woods turn into
paved roads as traffic increases, and so on. The effects of this on
society are the main interest of the story; the ostensible plot is
merely a vehicle to allow exposition of the idea.
        Although THE PRACTICE EFFECT is certainly a page-turner
(once again, it killed a nights sleep); I'm a little disappointed
while there is nothing wrong with it as a piece of light fantasy, I
had been expecting more substance from Brin. In the future I look
forward to more stories of the high standard he set for himself in
STARTIDE RISING. It would be a shame if he turns out to be a flash
in the pan.

------------------------------

Date: 7 March 1984 0838-est
From: Roz    <RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS>
Subject: Re: Darth Vader's turn around (SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #42)

    Date: Tue, 6 Mar 84 11:52:32 EST
    From: Vicki Kanrek <vkanrek@BBN-UNIX>
    Subject: Re: Re: It *is NOT* ENDOR

    [Info about the ENDOR MOON, omitted]

    For those who have NOT read the book, how surprising was it
    REALLY to see Darth's turnaround to the 'good' side at the end
    of the movie?  The book gives a decent (albeit long-winded)
    background and lead-up to it, but the movie just (comparatively)
    jumped into it.  I'm wondering what the non-pre-read audience
    reaction was?

    VJK [vjk@bbn-unix]

I did not "pre-read" the book before seeing ROTJ.  Since I have
always liked happy endings, I was rooting for the switch...
therefore, when it happened I was not surprised--just very very
glad!
                                  Roz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Mar 84 19:37:24 EST
From: Andrew Malis <malis@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Attn: Boston Dr. Who fans

"The Five Doctors" will be on Ch. 44 this Friday, 3/9, at 7:30 PM.

Also, Ch. 2 announced (during a pledge break) that this June they
will be switching from Tom Baker to Pete Davidson, and they implied
that these will be the most recent episodes available.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Mar 84  8:34:16 EST
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: andriods

        There was a movie I watched this weekend called something
   like the making of androids.  In the beginning it showed the
   history of electronics and robots, that started at R1 and worked
   up from there.  They (the robots) talked about the first rule in
   the book was not to harm humans.
        It was set in the future after a nuclear war and the
   humans were slowly dieing from not being able to keep up with the
   death rate.  The robots did most of the work and the big computer
   which was called "mother-father" did a lot of the law making.
        Does any one know who wrote or directed it.  I have a
   guide to movies on TV and it only has the two leading actors.
   Any help would be appreciated.
                                        Thanks,
                                        Craig.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #44
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Mar 84 1306-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:
                           Adminsitrivia,
           Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   Wallace & Axgrinders,
           Films - Favorite SF Movies & "Creation of the Humanoids" &
                   Star Wars,
           Music - Song Query Answers (2 msgs),
           Television - Dr. Who Video Game

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 84 12:38:25 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Adminsitrivia

        In the last issue I announced that Larry Niven's "Down in
Flames" was available via FTP at Rutgers.  Use the ANONYMOUS login
of FTP to access it.  The file is in <jaffe.sfl>down-in-flames.txt.
Happy reading.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 1984 16:28:13-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: THENDARA HOUSE

Steven Maurer says:

                In Thendara House, not a man from either culture
    is presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of [MZB]'s
    books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he are
    living in.

I didn't bother arguing his flat statement on FTL because that's an
area approaching personal belief. This statement, however, can be
tested objectively: both parts are horseshit, pure and simple.
Perhaps SM didn't bother finishing the book; Damon Ridenow[-Alton?]
and Andrew Carr appear rather late, but both of them certainly
qualify as "loving, caring person[s]"; the fact that Damon is turns
out to be one of the key elements in the book.  The second part
requires a little more knowledge of the Darkover books, but I would
definitely point to Danilo [Syrtis? S-Ardais? in HERITAGE OF HASTUR,
and SHARRA'S EXILE], and add Lew Alton after his father's death,
several of the characters in HAWKMISTRESS, all but one of the men in
the reworking of THE BLOODY SUN, and even Regis Hastur himself (RH
dislikes the constraints on him of being the heir-designate but is
no revolutionary, not even on the quiet level of Damon in THE
FORBIDDEN TOWER)---and this is a list from the top of my head. I
deliberately omit all of the early works since they are primarily
adventure stories rather than people stories.
   There are a number of reasons for disliking one or more of the
Darkover books, but they either are matters of taste (a friend
discards them, as he does all ESP, as fantasy) or require more
careful reading to substantiate.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 84 1:34:31-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Preachy authors continued..... - (nf)

        Well I'm a male and I enjoyed Thendara House.  As I read
    the book I took no offense, but then maybe that was because the
    author wasn't talking about me.  Were you like one of the
    characters in the book?  Is that why you took offense?  I though
    that Zimmer wrote an excellent book portraying a clash of
    cultures.  Keep in mind that she isn't necessarily writing about
    our culture (although I'm not so sure it doesn't fit in many
    cases).  The plot was very well written and really made me think
    about culture clashes and looking beyond what most of us take
    for granted.  (and i'm not just refering to male-female
    relationships...  i'm refering to thousands of pseudo behaviors
    that society has created).  But I suppose that if you were
    preoccupied with worrying about your male ego, you might have
    missed that.
                                        mike
                                        ...ctvax!uokvax!jmike

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 1984 1608-PST
From: tom@LOGICON
Subject: Password

After all the furor over "Friday", I thought I would see who
*REALLY* read the book. And now for the quiz:
        What is the password by which APs can identify themselves to
each other as Members of the world-wide AP underground which is
alluded to by Heinlein?

Tom Perrine
P.s. Brownie points and fame for correct answers. Void where
prohibited.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 84 19:42:41-PST (Tue)
From: menlo70!ames-lm!statvax!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: New Heinlein Novel

        I have heard a rumor to the effect that Robert Heinlein has
a new novel due out this Spring or early Summer, titled something
like "Job: A Book". I am *extremely* anxious to find out more about
this, since I am insanely fond of Heinlein novels. I would also
expect that any information anyone has would be of general enough
interest to warrant posting it to net.sf-lovers, judging by the
amount of discussion of Heinlein's books I've seen here. Anyone
heard more about this?

                                        Kenn Barry
                                        NASA-Ames Research Center
                                        Moffett, CA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 1984 16:47:15-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Ian Wallace

   is a strange one, right enough. I read CROYD and [its successor?]
DR.  ORPHEUS a dozen years ago and remember them both as very
strange. I wouldn't condemn them out of hand; after all, a lot of
people like Christopher Priest's work. I haven't read the work
mentioned (and probably won't), but I wouldn't be surprised at
people finding it unreadable.
   For something more digestible, try DEATHSTAR VOYAGE. Still a
strange mood, but much less entangled, perhaps because he sat down
and figured out some plausible rules for psychokinetic techniques,
then worked them into the story.

------------------------------

From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Date: 9 Mar 84 8:56:53 EST
Subject: axgrinders

there is a class of book which i call "axgrinders;" they are books
which offer a heavy sociopolitical position felt by the author
without offering any insights as to why this should be so.
mzbradley is great at this sort of thing; also high on the list is
russ' the female man.  i find them offensive because they condemn
without offering any direction to higher ground.

lest people think i only lump together books which offer opinions
with which i disagree, well, one of the worst offenders was a weird,
vicious little book called the bridge by keith mano.  it took aim at
environmental extremists, who ultimately decree racial suicide
because humans cause discomfort to single-celled organisms existing
everywhere in the environment.  (killing a fly or mosquito is a
capital offense, etc.)  as much as i detest naderism, i was greatly
offended by the book, which ranks as one of the worst axgrinders i
have ever read.  as much as i distrust big government, i toss ayn
rand on the same pile.

i read for insight, not political reinforcement.

and i sure wish people would bury this "male ego" nonsense.  some of
the biggest male egos i've ever seen were owned by women.  the
essential differences between the sexes are considerably less than
the axgrinders would have us believe.  heat is easy.  light is
rough.

sure wish i could make this terminal produce capital letters
again...

--jeff duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@parc-maxc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 84 19:05:43-PST (Tue)
From: menlo70!ames-lm!statvax!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FAVE SF MOVIES

        Ah, yes, guilty pleasures! Has anyone but myself seen (much
less liked) "The Day The Earth Froze"? It must have come out some
time in the sixties, and, title notwithstanding, is not your
standard catastrophe movie. It is a film adaptation of the Finnish
Kalevala (Finns feel free to correct a Norwegian's spelling). The
Kalevala is an epic myth, like the Greek myths or the Nordic Eddas,
a national epic. It had an American distributor's name on the
credits, and some English narration overlayed, but appeared to be
actually Finnish- made, or maybe Russian-made. It is obviously
low-budget, and has very unrealistic special effects and poor
English dubbing, but shining through the rough surface is a quaint
charm that may hold your interest if you're in the right mood.
        I would be interested in hearing about anyone else's "guilty
pleasures" (things you know you oughtn't like, but do) among
sf/fantasy films. What other hidden treasures are out there?

                                        Kenn Barry
                                        NASA-Ames Research Center
                                        Moffett, CA

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 84 12:28:23 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: "Creation of the Humanoids"

The film recently asked about (post-nucelar war, androids and all
that) was a rather talky and cheap movie called CREATION OF THE
HUMANOIDS.  By "cheap" I mean that it had a rather low budget.  By
"talky" I mean that there is very little action, mostly dialog...

I too have been searching for more information on this movie.  I
have seen it (probably) about 24 times, mostly when I was working as
a security guard and it was shown on the Late Late Late Late Late
Show.

Good stuff, if a bit dated.

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 84 14:05:55 PST (Thursday)
From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA>
Subject: Sy Snootles, Live at the Berkeley Square!

(From the San Francisco Chronicle, 06mar84, page 40.  Reproduced
without permission.)


(deleted)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 84 1:34:16-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: song query - (nf)

Unless I'm badly mistaken, there's a thing floating around (I keep
trying to drown it, but just can't :-) called "Why Me" that could
fit that description.  Unfortunately, I've forgotten who did it.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 84 6:25:39-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: song query - (nf)

> Unless I'm badly mistaken, there's a thing floating around (I keep
> trying to drown it, but just can't :-) called "Why Me" that could
> fit that description.  Unfortunately, I've forgotten who did it.

The song "Why Me" is done by the group Planet P.

Allen England at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihuxb!alle

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 84 14:34:47-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektroni
From: x!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dr. Who Video Game???

<squeee-thump! wheeze-thump, wheeze-thump!>

> Yes, there is such a video game.  It is a home game designed to run
on the BBC(!!) home computer.

Honest! Would I lie?

Hutch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #45
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Mar 84 1250-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 Mar 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:
          Books - Bradbury & Brunner & Clarke & Harrison &
                  Heinlein & May & Niven & Wolfe,
          Conventions - Philcon '84,
          Films - Favorite Movies (2 msgs),
          Television - Dr. Who,
          Miscellaneous - Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object &
                  AP's Password

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1984 14:01:55 PST
Subject: Ray Bradbury lecture in LA
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

                Space and 1984

          A lecture by Ray Bradbury

On Tue., March 27, at 7:00, OASIS/L5 will present Ray Bradbury.  The
meeting will be held at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's Von Karman
Auditorium in Pasadena.  Admission is free and the general public is
welcome.

Bradbury will speak to the continuing revolutions in our American
society, including space, the computer, medicine, jets, immigration,
employment, telephones, and freeways. He is best know as the author
of "The Martian Chronicles" and has published more than 400 short
stories and 17 novels.

To get to JPL: Take the Foothill freeway (210) to the Berkshire off
ramp , go right on Berkshire, left on Oak Grove up to JPL (follow
the signs).

Tell your friends!

                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Mar 84 22:31:55 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice>
Subject: British edition of THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER

I've heard that John Brunner's novel THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER was
released in England in substantially different form than the US
Ballantine edition.  In fact, I recall reading that Brunner was
quite peeved that Ballantine had mercilessly hacked his work, even
removing a character without his permission.

Could someone tell me roughly what was changed between the two
versions?  Pointers to British editions that might be available in
the US would also be appreciated.  Since the Ballantine version was
so good, I can't help wondering what the original was like.

                        thanks,
                        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 84 12:42:55 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Update on 2010:  ODYSSEY TWO

The following is taken from THE NEWARK OBSERVER (a Rutgers
University Newark Campus newspaper), dated March 6, 1984:

2010:  AN EXPERIENCE IN SPACE

By Bert Roig

"Helen Mirren, the distinguished British actress, has been set for a
starring role in MGM's "2010", produced and directed by Peter Hyams,
it was announced by Freddie Fields, head of Worldwide theatrical
production for MGM/UA Enter- tainment Co.

"Mirren, whose feature film credits include 'Oh Lucky Man,'
'Excalibur' and 'The Long Good Friday', is well-known for her stage
appearances as a leading lady with the Royal Shakespeare Theatre and
the Shakespeare Memorial Theatre.

"She is regularly seen on British television in such productions as
'Mrs.  Reindhart' shown on PBS in the US.

"MGM's '2010', currently in production at MGM Studios in Culver
City, stars Roy Scheider, Bob Balaban and John Lithgow.  It is
scheduled for a Christmas 1984 release by MGM/UA Entertainment Co.

"'2010' is based on the novel 2010: ODYSSEY TWO by Arthur C. Clarke,
one of the leading writers of science fiction.  He is famous for his
2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY which he wrote in close collaboration with
director Stanley Kubrick who was simultaneously making the film in
1967.

"'2010' is the second part of the story which picks up where its
predecessor left off.  The novel describes the adventure of Heywood
Floyd, an American scientist who dreams of reactiviting HAL 9000,
the maniac computer in the first episode.  A second voyage to
Jupiter, the site of the original story, and the objective of the
mission is 'to proceed to the Jovian System and rendezvous with the
lost U.S. spacecraft DISCOVERY.  A Russian ship, the ALEXI LEONOV is
sent with seven Russian cosmonauts and three American experts,
including Dr. Floyd.

"The story examines Life in Space and such concepts as Life itself.
In one part of the novel there is, on an alien moon, a creature
which lives under the ice, a kind of "octopus" with many tentacles.
It single-handedly destroys a Chinese spacecraft which landed there
to refuel (and which was, by the way, trying to get to the DISCOVERY
first to learn its technological secrets.).

"The novel also explores other kinds of life that multiply at a
tremendous rate and completely cover the surface of Jupiter, at the
climax of the story, turning it into a second sun.  These living
brick-like organisms, similiar to the monoliths in the first story,
reproduce by dividing and subdividing much like cells do.

"The movie version may or may not do justice to the novel that came
out in 1982.  If it does, then there will be better character
interaction and more human relations, maybe even a love story
between Floyd and one of the Russian cosmonauts, most probably
played by Helen Mirren."

--30--

That is quoted directly from the paper.  I take no responsibility
for accuracy of story line, facts, or the mangled English language.
I'm just quoting for you all....

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 84 19:14:10-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers

        "In an unending search for funny SF, I picked up a copy of
        'Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers' by Harry Harrison ...
        The book, to put it mildly, it terrible. ... The
        plot is so stupendously non-existant that I found I didn't
        mind when the cardboard characters stood up and postured
        (Example: the heros are about to be killed by a KGB agent.
        In a last ditch attempt to save their skin, they say 'Sure,
        you were brought up as a socialist, but your father was an
        american (true assumption) and that makes you an american as
        well!' This moved this highly trained and motivated KGB
        agent so much that he changed sides ..."

Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers is meant, not as a "straight"
humorous book to read out of context, but a parody of the classic SF
styles and subgenres.  In particular, most of Heinlein's works were
well and excellently lampooned.  As such, I found it to be about the
funniest book I ever read.

But don't read it unless you have already read quite a bit of
conventional SF, or you won't find it to be very funny.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 84 10:53:12-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein and FRIDAY

Once again, my off-net friend has something to say:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    >Throughout the book, Heinlein hammers away at the theme that
    >Friday did not consider herself to be a human being and had a
    >far different attitude toward sex from that of "real" women.

and

    >I don't think this is well taken.  For one thing, ordinary
    >human psychology doesn't necessarily extrapolate to Friday. For
    >example, it's clear that the rape was not (as such) traumatic
    >to her; with her mind control discipline, she could and did
    >simply turn it off.  In that long scene of which the rape was
    >part, she dispassionately recounts the several responses she
    >considered making to the rape.


So why does everyone hold up Friday as an example of how well
Heinlein portrays a strong female (human) character?  Either she's a
valid example of a strong female character (which implies some
degree of believability in her portrayal as a HUMAN female), or
she's not considered HUMAN (which implies that she can't be held up
as a valid example of a strong female character).

You can't have it both ways.

It seems like the whole point of the novel was that Friday was as
human as any 'normal' human.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My two cents worth:

Friday was supposed to be the best any human could be, but still
human.  Her reaction while being raped is not the issue; I can
believe that she could "turn it off." You could find real people who
could do the same in worse circumstances.

The problem is with her falling for the rapist AP. The suggestion is
not that this is impossible, just that it was tossed off with too
little justification or development, and is fundamentally unlikly to
boot.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 14 Mar 84 08:52:16-PST
From: Cher Gunby <CHER@WASHINGTON.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #43

One small point re Peter Trei's comments on Julian May.  Throughout
his comments he alludes to he.  Ms. May would be quite surprised to
find out that her sex recently changed.  I'm reading "The Adversary"
and find it as well as her other books quite enjoyable although the
"scientific" jargon sometimes goes right over my head and slows an
otherwise enjoyable read.

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for the same
response:

Audrey Ishizaki (hplabs!saturn!ishizaki@UCB-VAX)
Chuq Von Rospach (menlo70!nsc!chuqui@UCB-VAX) ]

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 1984 20:29:58 PST
From: Charles Carvalho <charles@ACC>
Subject: Larry Niven / The Integral Trees

According to the Science Fiction Hotline, Larry Niven will be making
several appearances in Southern California in the next few weeks, in
connection with The Integral Trees.

Autograph parties are scheduled as follows:

Sat, 17-Mar, 2-5 PM, at the Change of Hobbit in Santa Monica,
(213) 473-2873
Sun, 18-Mar, 2-4 PM, at Andromeda Bookshop in Santa Barbara,
(805) 965-2400
Sun, 1-Apr, 2-4 PM, at Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks,
(818) 986-6963

In addition, he will be the guest on Hour 25 (KPFK, 90.7 FM) on
Friday, 16-Mar, between 10 PM and midnight.

                                        Charles Carvalho
                                        <charles@ACC>

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 19:23:00-EST (Mon)
From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: none

>   I've been having a hard time finding Gene Wolfe's Operation Ares
> (1970).  Is it novel or anthology?  Is it about anything in
> particular?

>   What was Wolfe's first book?

        Operation Ares is a novel, and is Wolfe's first book.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Sun 11 Mar 84 05:08:37-EST
From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Philcon programming

I made a serious mistake coming back from Boskone; I hitched back to
Philadelphia with the chairs of Philcon 83 and Philcon 84. By the
time we got to Philly, I seem to have ended up being either in
charge or co-charge of programming for Philcon 84 (it was pointed
out that it was a long walk from Hartford to Philadelphia).

Philcon will be the weekend before Thanksgiving with Larry Niven as
Principal Speaker and Sean Spocker (sp?), a sculptor, as artist GOH.
If you've ever wanted to have input into the programming of a major
regional, here's your chance. I'd appreciate any ideas for panels,
and program items other than panels. These can include things you've
never seen and would like to, or ideas from other cons which could
bear repeating.

Please note that I will next be logging in on this account on 3/24,
and don't know when I will after that, so don't be surprised by
spotty followup from me.

Thanx!

tom galloway
tyg%mit-oz@mit-mc

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 84 15:23:53-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!dan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FAVE SF MOVIES

I'm a little surprised that nobody's mentioned "Blade Runner" as a
favorite! This film is an excellent example of using sci-fi as the
mechanism for telling us the author's views on the roles of God and
man, as well as being an interesting story.

Dan Reynolds <dan@ut-ngp.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 84 8:37:42-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FAVE SF MOVIES

Re: "Day the Earth Froze" (what an obnoxious title).  Clearly a
foreign film, and looks like it was made quite a while ago.  Could
it be a silent film, originally?  I seem to have seen it shown that
way at a convention once, and it isn't nearly as bad without the
dubbed English soundtrack!
   By the way, the Kalevala is a peculiar sort of national Epic,
since it was the work of one man (Elias Lonnrot (sp?)) who assembled
it from diligently collected oral folk legends, songs, and poems.
By the time he collected the stuff (in the 19th century, I think;
don't quote me), figures like Kullervo who probably had once had
high mythic stature had diminished into semi-comical folk figures.
Interestingly, Tolkien and Sibelius (THERE's an odd pair!)  both
raised Kullervo back to heroic status (in the tale of Turin and in
the Kullervo Symphony, respectively).  Ramble, ramble...

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 1984  21:24 EST (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Dr. Who

        Having just seen the Five Doctors, I have one question:
Which is which?  I know Baker and Davison, but I don't know who
played the old man, the short one who looks vaguely like Moe Howard,
and the fancy one with white hair.  Would someone in possession of
such information care to pass it on?  Thanks.
        By the way, I recall reading some while back that there was
a Dr. Who archive on line somewhere.  Could someone tell me where I
can find it?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 11 Mar 84 07:06:39-EST
From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object

A hypothetical paradox:
What would happen in a battle between an Enterprise security team,
who always get killed soon after appearing, and a squad of Imperial
Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of a planet?

tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 84 20:05:34-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Password - (nf)

(rot13 so not spoiler)

Challenge/Punyyratr:    "Zl zbgure jnf n grfg ghor"

Response/Erfcbafr:      "Zl sngure jnf n xavsr"

Is that the one you meant?

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 84 18:49:47 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: AP's password

     "My mother was a test tube, my father was a knife"

Sorry, I can't send over the net, this has to go to the bboard.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #46
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 84 1339-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:
            Books - Bradbury & Bradley & Brin (3 msgs) &
                    Brunner & Niven & Story Request,
            Films - Star Trek III (2 msgs),
            Television - The New Dr Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 14 Mar 1984 17:03-PST
Subject: bradbury lecture at jpl
From: Kevin W. Rudd <kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim>

I will mention that you want 210 West -- if you come from the San
Fernando Valey you will need to turn left on Berkshire...  It should
be obvious, as there isn't much the other direction...
  -- Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 84 10:27:05-PST (Fri)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: THENDARA HOUSE

>   >>  I state: In Thendara House, not a man from either culture is
>   >>  presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of [MZB]'s
>   >>  books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he
>   >>  are
>

> cjh replies:
>                              This statement, however, can be
> tested objectively: both parts are horseshit, pure and simple.
> Perhaps SM didn't bother finishing the book; Damon
> Ridenow[-Alton?] and Andrew Carr appear rather late, but both of
> them certainly qualify as "loving, caring person[s]"; the fact
> that Damon is turns out to be one of the key elements in the book.

        Perhaps you should re-read my statement more carefully.
    I am talking about Thendara House, not The Forbidden Tower.  In
    Thendara House, Damon and Andrew simply are presented simply as
    somewhat atypical nobility -- there is almost no exploration of
    their character at all, since the parts that they play are
    practically walk on bits.  I realize that Damon and Andrew in
    Thendara House are NOT presented as total assholes, like every
    other male in the book, but this hardly misqualifies what I have
    said.

cjh continues:
>    The second part requires a little more knowledge of the
>  Darkover books, but I would definitely point to Danilo [Syrtis?
>  S-Ardais? in HERITAGE OF HASTUR, and SHARRA'S EXILE], and add Lew
>  Alton after his father's death, several of the characters in
>  HAWKMISTRESS, all but one of the men in the reworking of THE
>  BLOODY SUN, and even Regis Hastur himself (RH dislikes the
>  constraints on him of being the heir-designate but is no
>  revolutionary, not even on the quiet level of Damon in THE
>  FORBIDDEN TOWER)---and this is a list from the top of my head. I
>  deliberately omit all of the early works since they are primarily
>  adventure stories rather than people stories.

        Oh I am not saying that all her good male protagonists
    turn out to be total revolutionaries against their own culture
    (only half do), even MZB has too much a sense of reality for
    that.  It is just that EVERY good protagonist seems to spend at
    least 5 pages throughout every book deploring the culture in
    which he was born.  Danilo, Lew, Damon, and Regis certainly
    do.....

    Now before you go to bed tonight, think about the likelihood of
    that happening -- every single good guy is at least a rebel
    sympathiser -- a secret feminist even though the word hasn't
    been invented yet.  I believe that just about as much as I
    believe that all women are secret masochists -- just like it
    says in the GOR books....  MZB cannot seem to create a character
    which does not fit into her good guy/bad guy mold: For example, a
    man who loves his wife and children (golly, maybe he doesn't
    even beat her when their baby turns out to be a girl), but sure
    as hell isn't going to give them any modern-day freedoms...

Steven (horseshit, pure and simple) Maurer

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1984 1746-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: review of "The Practice Effect"

"The Practice Effect" by David Brin

   The gimmick here is that there is a world where things become
better through use.  As you use a knife its edge becomes sharper and
its handle better fitted.  Beds become more comfortable, clothes
more beautiful, walls stronger, etc.  The hero, a 21st century
physicist, has to figure this out and come to terms with it.
   Why did Brin bother to write about such an implausible premise?
It's still a page-turner, but there doesn't seem to be much point.
His explanation for the effect at the end of the book is extremely
weak.  Most of it is just fun and games in trying to exploit the
effect.  Each chapter seems to consist of the hero getting into a
jam and escaping by introducing another bit of Earth technology to
this feudal society.  This "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's
Court" theme is a popular one in science fiction but there doesn't
seem to be much justification for it here.
   Aside: how many other books can people think of that belong to
this genre?  There's "Lest Darkness Fall" by De Camp where an
American saves the Roman Empire by introducing printing and
double-entry bookkeeping, and "Conjure Wife" where they work out the
laws of witchcraft by applying symbolic logic.  Can you think of
others?
   Brin has written some novellas recently that would seem to me to
have much more promise for expansion.  There was "The Postman" where
civilization is restored by the US Postal Service, and another about
a space station built out of Shuttle external tanks.  It beats me
why he spent his time working on this instead.  I suppose that a
full-time writer has to get out something to pay the bills.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 84 9:40:08-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: New Brin Book

I just read "The Practice Effect" by David Brin - a new book that
caught me by surprise last weekend.  I checked the publication date
to make sure, and it said 1984!  Anyway, it is a light-hearted book
that makes the old idea of alternate universes (where magic really
works) enjoyable and almost believable, even to a hard SF fan such
as myself.  As our hero is leaving his world, he is informed by his
rival that one of the laws of thermodynamics seems to be a little
different in the other world.  The first half of the book is the
hero's attempt to discover just what is different about the
alternate universe and his attempts to return to Earth.  The second
half turns into a slightly less interesting chase sequence and a
battle, but overall the quality and imagination remains at a fairly
high level, with an occasional chuckle thrown in.  I recommend the
book highly.
                                Dave Newkirk, ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 84 13:29:35-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!rayssd!gmp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Practice Effect **teensie spoiler**

I bought the book on Monday at a Waldenbooks.  Although it could
almost be renamed "Connecticut Yankee in a Parallel Universe", I
really enjoyed it.  If you liked the other David Brin books, you'll
most likely enjoy this one as well.

Gregory M. Paris {allegra,ccieng5,decvax!brunix,linus}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1984 18:27:56-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
To: mike@rice
Subject: [mutilation] of THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER

So far as Brunner himself has said (in "Noise Level", his column in
SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW), tSR was altered not substantially but
substantively.  Two brothers, Jake(?) and Josh Treves, were merged
into one by an overly-zealous editor/proofreader who halfwittedly
assumed that the two different names were typoes from the manuscript
or British edition. This error appeared in the American hardback
edition, but not in the paperback, which he vigorously urged people
to buy in preference. The Treves are not particularly major
characters (the second appears 90+% of the way through) but if you
work the plot out I think you find that they have to be in two
places a large distance apart at a key point in the story; Brunner
is meticulous about plotting and has frequently fulminated against
editors (usually American) who change text without consulting the
author (as I coedited his songbook (A NEW SETTLEMENT OF OLD SCORES)
last summer, I know he can be quite gracious if shown why/that a
change is necessary).

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Mar 1984 12:58:54-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder (Do not adjust your set...)
From: <decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder@Shasta>
Subject: Larry Niven's story ARM -- SPOILER !!

Niven introduces what I believe to be a horrendous inconsistency in
"ARM" with his description of the behaviour of light inside the
inertialess field of the dead man's machine.

At one point, Jackson Bera comments to Gil Hamilton that it is
exciting to be able to observe light moving at an apparent 300-odd
miles per second inside the field due to the field's 500-fold
increase in the rate of time.  This remark is consistent with
physics as I understand it, because photons are massless particles
and hence have no inertia to be acted upon by the field.  (It is a
photon's lack of mass that permits AND CONSTRAINS it to travel at
c.)

But the two murdered organleggers' faces are described as being
burned off by the beam of the killer's campout lantern as it emerged
from the field and gained 500-fold in energy.  And that is the
inconsistency - if Bera observed light moving at the apparent
reduced speed because the light was actually moving at c, then the
beam of the campout lantern should behave the same way and not gain
any energy upon exiting the field.  There is sort of a halfway
justification of the phenomenon by the description that the
machine's violet glow was really a frequency-shifted display of
heat, implying that the time speedup would cause emission of
electromagnetic radiation at a 500-times higher frequency, but it
still doesn't appear to work as long as we are dealing with
inertialess particles.  They can't be affected by the speedup, hence
will be emitted at the "proper" frequency.

If correct, then this assumption means that it would be dark inside
the field unless it were bathed by the appropriate external
high-energy radiation.

Comments, corrections, etc.??

- Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 84 6:48:18-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihu1g!ealee @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Looking for a Analog story

I'm looking for a story that appeared in Analog magazine between
1977 and 1980. I don't remember the title or the author, but the
story line went something like this:

        A space ship leaves earth with scientist and their families
        to explore a distant planet. Along the way various forms of
        games are used to entertain people, but the favorite is
        "Dungeon and Dragons". This is not the same "D and D" that
        we know now, but a more refined version that has no DM and
        takes place entirely in the heads of the players. Two of the
        players (who's characters are not involved in the main game
        at that time) have their characters have an affair. The
        space ship eventually get to its destination and drops off
        the two previously mentioned people and two others (one
        which is a "D and D" player). The 3 "D and D" players get in
        trouble while on the planet and rather than (or because they
        can't) figure out how to save themselves, they slip into
        their "D and D" characters. They eventually "kill" their "D
        and D" characters and figure out how to get out of their
        troubles.

Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Liz Scheller-Lee "Back in Pooh Corner"

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 11:44:01 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: More Stuff on STIII

With the latest issue of STARLOG, comes more hints and pictures:

1.  A picture of Kirk in civilian clothing, receving instructions from
    Director Nimoy.

2.  A picture of Kirk, McCoy, Uhurha, Savvik, and Sarek.  They are
    all standing on what might be the bridge of the Enterprise.  Or,
    it might be that Vulcan Temple that I mentioned previously.  You
    really can't tell.  In any event, there they all are, looking
    mighty spiffy...

3.  A picture of Sulu talking to somebody behind a "futuristic
    console".  Said person is in uniform, Sulu is in civvies.  This
    author used to be a security guard--something about the way this
    person looks indicates to me that he is filling the same
    position.

4.  Kirk and McCoy, both in civvies, "instigating the SEARCH FOR
    SPOCK".

5.  Uhura in uniform, on a transporter platform, with a phaser at
    the ready.

The issue also contains a article by David Gerrold, NOT describing a
preview that he attended of STIII. He talks about being invited, he
says he had a great time, he says that you'll either love it or hate
it, he says everyone is super, but he doesn't say a G--D-- thing
about the plot!!!

Moderator Jaffe attended Lunacon this weekend and allegedly saw a
slide presentation (moderated by Howard Weinstein) on STIII.
Perhaps if we bug him enough, he'll type in some remarks....

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 13:02:23 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Star trek III

Folks,
        I have just returned from a weekend at Lunacon the New
York/New Jersey regional event and there I witnessed an amazing
slide show presented by Howard Weinstein (author of The Covenant of
the Crown) on Star trek III: The Search for Spock.
        That is now the final title of the film and it looks like it
will be a winner!  Howard was not releasing lots of info about the
film but he did say enough to get the following summary:
        The film starts with the Enterprise limping home after the
battle with Khan.  The ship enters a starbase in Earth orbit that
dwarfs the ship and Kirk is relieved of command.  Apparently the
federation is upset with Kirk over the episode since the Romulans
and Klingons view the Genesis bomb as a weapon.
        All I know about the rest of the plot is that Sarek (played
by Mark Lenard) comes to visit Kirk,  McCoy goes on a drinking binge,
upset because he didn't talk Spock out of committing suicide, and
Kirk watches computer tapes of McCoy and Spock in Engineering and
himself and Spock in the famous death scene.  He then SOMEHOW gets
back the Enterprise (Howard wouldn't say how but the implication of
the slides and his wording is that Kirk and his crew STEAL the ship
back.  We'll have to wait till June 1 to find out for sure) and goes
off in search for Spock.
        James B. Sikking (of Hill Street Blues fame) plays the
commander of the Excelsior the next generation ship after the
Enterprise and it is equipped with something called Trans-warp drive
and Christpher Lloyd (of Taxi fame) plays a klingon commander.  I
have no idea how they affect the story but I can't wait to find out!

I wish today were June 1 !!!!

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 84 15:41:55 EST (Wednesday)
Subject: The new Dr Who
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@parc-maxc.ARPA>

Well, our local station finally got around to showing the first
Peter Davison episode, after promising it to us for over 6 months.
Regeneration was not nearly as traumatic to me as it is to other
people.  I liked Davison, and found it a nice change from years of
Tom Baker.  Adric and the air hostess have got to go, though.

                                        Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #47
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 84 1456-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:
        Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Herbert (2 msgs) & May &
                Powers & Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers,
        Films - Movie Reviews & Star Wars (2 msgs),
        Television - Questor,
        Video - Star Trek,
        Miscellaneous - Proverbs & Nimoy Lecture

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1984 1716-PST
From: tom@LOGICON
Subject: Re: AP's password

I have seen only two responses to my little challenge:

"What is the recognition challenge/response by which Artificial
Persons can identify themselves as members of the world-wide
underground of APs?"

The answer is NOT: "My mother was a test tube, my father was a knife."

Actually, only the challenge is known.  Friday is challenged at
least twice, but does not make the correct response, probably
because she has been separated from AP society by her guardian, Dr.
Baldwin.

You can send replies directly to me. I will forward any correct
answers to the sig.

Tom Perrine

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 84 14:58:39-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein and FRIDAY

I thought that it was her training as a professional
cloak-and-dagger type courier that gained her the edge over the rape
and torture, not the fact that she was AP.

As a matter of fact, I think that using AP as a reason is contrary
to some of the points that Heinlein was trying to express.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 84 12:40:12 EST
From: DELTUVIA@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Tom's Friday quiz

        That's a simple question - the answer must be in that book
five or six times - "My mother was a test tube & my father was a
knife" - here's a harder question - in which book did Mr. Two-canes
appear before, and what are the names of the assassins in Friday's
heritage??
                                John Deltuvia

[Moderator's Note:  Please respond directly to Deltuvia@RU-GREEN.]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 84 13:43:25-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein and FRIDAY

   I've got an idea: why not interpret the novel Friday based on
what's in it, rather than what you wish was in it?
   The present controversy is over Friday's marrying a man who had
previously raped her.  Well, perhaps she wouldn't have thought of it
that way; he was another AP like her, he was a member of her own
profession (giving them a common interest), he helped her escape
onto the colony planet (if I remember correctly). In addition, she
wanted desperately to belong to a family; getting married is a good
first step towards that.  I don't remember whether or not there
would have been other APs in the colonies; from what I remember, she
felt that she couldn't trust regular people, because they might find
out her background and turn against her.  In that case, the rapist
might have been the one person she could trust.  Besides which, the
guy had been kind to her (given that it was his job to rape her; he
was kinder than the others involved), and she hadn't had to watch
him as she was being raped. Perhaps that made it easier to forget
the incident (especially since she'd "turned off" at the time).
   I must admit that I was rather lukewarm about Friday when first I
read the book. Now, looking back on the half-remembered plot, and
with the flames going back and forth on the net to stimulate
thinking about it, I'm growing to appreciate it more. So, keep those
flames burning!

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 84 6:17:27-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxg!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler

xx <- two footed stomp

The March edition of Omni magazine contains a small excerpt from
Frank Herbert's new Dune novel, Heretics of Dune. When I say small,
I mean small!  I haven't read Omni lately, but I seem to remember
that when they excerpted Number of the Beast and Firestarter, the
excerpts had some substance; I finished the Dune excerpt in less
than 10 minutes. Anyway, the story seems to be taking place many
generations after Leto II died and returned his spirit to the desert
(i.e., returned the sandtrout vector of the sandworm to the desert
to start making new sandworms). The excerpt is actually a flashback
of an eleven-year-old priestess to when she was eight years old, and
the circumstances that led to her position. It appears that, while
the sandworms are back, they are not as powerful as before; the girl
refers to a thirty meter worm as a big one, and if I remember
correctly, that wasn't a very big worm in the time of Stilgar and
Paul. Apparently, the Bene Gesserit (yes, the witches are still
around!) have been waiting (of course) for someone to come along who
has the power to control the sandworms, and she's the one. That's
about it for the excerpt.

As an aside, I just want to note that I will probably buy this one
just to keep up the collection (as many of the net readers in
net.comics are doing with the "Secret Wars"), but I really am not
looking forward to reading it; I think Herbert had a great thing
going with Dune, but he really shouldn't have made it into a series
(by the way, what is the proper term for a collection of five books?
Or six books?) I understand he signed a contract to continue the
Dune saga to six books.

                        Doug Burton
                        ATT-CP Indianapolis
                        inuxg!burton

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 84 5:38:23-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler

        What is the proper term for a series of five or six books?
How about a glut? or maybe just "too many".

                                        eric
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu 15 Mar 84 00:41:13-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.Trei@CU20B>
Subject: Julian May's gender...

        Ugh. Mea culpa. I abase myself. Would you believe that I
just looked through my entire set of Julian May, and found NO
mention of her gender?  The Pan paperbacks have nothing, and the
Fawcett trade paperback of The Many-Colored Land evades the topic
even in the micro-bio at the back.
                                Peter

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 11:49:34 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: THE ANNUBIS GATES
To: jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA, zeve@RU-BLUE.ARPA, fischer@RU-BLUE.ARPA,

Dear All:

I know that this book has been discussed before, but, I thought that
I would add my voice to the Cosmic Fugue...

Run--do not walk--run to your nearest bookstore and buy THE ANNUBIS
GATES by Time Powers.  It has got to be one of the best reads that I
have had all year, next to Robert W. Chambers THE SLAYER OF SOULS
and David Brin's THE PRACTICE EFFECT.  I bought it, sat down with
it, and got up a day later...it is a real page-turner.  I had to be
dragged into NYC screaming and kicking to see an opera--I literally
could not put the book down.  Great--and strange characters, an
interesting system of magic, a fantastic plot.  Wow!  Good stuff, I
am now on a search for Time Powers' other book--THE DRAWING OF THE
DARK.

For those of you who like adapting books to RPGs, this would
definately make a good one for such games as TIMESHIP, FRINGEWORTHY
and CALL OF CTHULHU.

Good stuff, good stuff.

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1984 17:36-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <taw at S1-C>
Subject: Re: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers

> Date: 6 Mar 84 19:14:10-PST (Tue)
> Message excerpts from: plabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!andrew@Ucb-Vax
>
>       . . . .  In particular, most of Heinlein's works were well
> and excellently lampooned.

Oh, come on now!!  SSotGR is clearly recognizable as a parody of the
old space opera genre, most notably E.E. "Doc" Smith's Skylark and
Lensmen series.  The poor boy genius from the backwoods, and the
rich cheese heir (the cheese absorbs water from the air, so if you
don't eat it fast enough, you end up with more cheese than you
started out with), converting the football team's 747 for
interplanetary, and later interstellar flight......

>       . . . . As such, I found it to be about the
>       funniest book I ever read.
>
>         -- Andrew Klossner

I heartily concur. But you *do* have to read a lot of the right SF
to understand whatinhell is going on.

Tom Wadlow

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 84 09:16 PST
From: NNicoll.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Desolation Opera (Movie Reviews)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the science fiction movies I have
herewith gathered under the name of "Desolation Opera" :

"MAD MAX"
        This was, I think the beginning of the genre (ripoff?) and
sets the formula for the rest.  The formula is (1.) Start with an
opening of bombs and war and fade to scenes of desolation, (2.)
Costume the characters in Heavy Metal, (3.) Have Mr. T design and
build the vehicles out of whatever is handy, and, (4.) Paint the
characters with as wide a brush as possible (heros are REAL heros,
heroines have LARGE busts, villians are truly VILLANOUS, etc....
(5.) The story line goes good guys loose, then win a little, then
loose again and finally win big, (6.) The hero rides off into the
sunset at the conclusion of the movie.

Mad Max is a brilliant film for the size of its budget and enjoyable
as a "student" type work.

"ROAD WARRIOR"
Is a remake of Mad Max with a larger budget.

"WARLORDS OF THE 21ST CENTURY"
        This little gem has a truck that must have taken Mr. T at
least 15 minutes to weld together, some really funny lines (after
the villian captures a village he casually tells his second in
command to "Inventory and Requisition", the second turns to the
third and snidely says "Inventory and Requisition, Willie", Willie
runs off yelling "LOOT, LOOT", and all elements of the formula in
exact sequence.

"1999, THE BRONX WARRIORS"
        They didn't really need to set this one in the future.  They
used the modern day Bronx for the sets and the characters could be
the ones running the place today.  The story line is pure opera.

"STRYKER"
        This is a basic Italian ripoff, poorly acted, dubbed and
filmed.  Not quite as bad as a "Golan-Globus" production, but not
really worth the effort to sit thru.

"ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK"
        This high budget number has good cinematography but
otherwise......enjoy the formula one more time.

Nick Nicoll

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 84 9:16:56-PST (Wed)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SW Dialog Trivia Contest

OK, for all you Star Wars fans, here's a little trivia quiz to
challenge your memory.  However, unlike most trivia quizes, this one
deals with your memory of who said what, when.

NOTES:

All questions are from the three Star Wars films, I will not accept
any answers based upon the books.

Please mail responses to me.

I will post the correct answers sometime next week.

Good luck.

1. What is the first spoken line in each of the three Star Wars
films?  Who said it? To whom?

2. What is the last spoken line in each of the three Star Wars
films?  Who said it?  To whom?

3. How many times is the line "I've got a bad feeling about this!"
said over the course of the three films?  When?  By whom?

4. How many times is the line "It's not my fault!" said over the
course of the three films?  When?  By whom?

5.  Most people know that James Earl Jones did the voice of Darth
Vader even though David Prowse played the part.  However, there is
one scene where David Prowse's voice comes through.  When?  What
does he say?

Send replies to:

Marla S. Baer
ssc-vax!marla

[Moderator's Note:  Please send all responses directly to
ssc-vax!marla.  Responses sent to sf-lovers WILL NOT BE FORWARDED.]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 84 12:47:13-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!teklds!brianr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Ewok Joke

Haven't you all figured out yet that Ewok is Wookie with the last
letter first?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 84 19:47:37-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!usadaca @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

Questor's friend was played by Mike Farrell of MASH fame.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Mar 84 22:25 EST
From: Winston B. Edmond <wbe@BBN-VAX>
Subject: Star Trek on videotape

   From the Sunday, March 11, 1984 Boston Herald:

   The indestructible "Star Trek" is once again going to boldly go
where no one has gone before.
  Paramount Home Video plans to release all 79 episodes of the
1966-69 TV series exclusively on a direct-mail-only basis.
Subscribers will receive a title a month for $19.95, regardless of
tape or disc format.
   It's a good thing "Trekkies," who have turned a
not-too-successful TV series into a billion-dollar industry, are
used to waiting around for a good thing.  The offering, which will
start sometime later this year, will take 6 1/2 years to complete.
   But the payoff will be a chance to explore outer space again with
Captain Kirk (William Shatner) and Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) in the
starship "Enterprise."

 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 1984 14:23:29 EST
From: David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Goosie Goosie Gander

     The last few issues have had lots of comments about the
proverb, "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander,"
offering various explanations for its meaning.  Well, I'm a
folklorist by training, and proverbs are one of the things we're
supposed to be capable of dealing with (I had a full-semester course
that dealt with nothing but proverbs and riddles, in fact), so I'll
throw in my two cents.
     The critical thing about proverbs is that they are metaphorical
comparisons, not just between the objects described by the proverb's
words, but also between those objects and some portion of "reality,"
as it is perceived by the individual uttering the proverb.  As a
result, the "meaning" of a proverb is totally dependent on the
context in which it's used.  It's also possible that the speaker and
the listener(s) will interpret it differently; in fact, that's quite
likely, given the nature of metaphorical descriptions.
     Thus, in order to know what Spock (it was Spock, wasn't it?)
really meant, we'd have to know what was in his mind when he used
it.  Given that he's not a human, there's a possibility that his
intention was quite different than that assumed either by the
viewers or the other characters in ST, since his understanding of
the proverb's components might not have been what was expected.
     Many proverbs mean totally different things to different users.
For instance, the old saw "A rolling stone gathers no moss" is
generally explained by Scottish informants as indicating how
peaceful it is to live a settled life, while Irish and British
informants interpret it as meaning that one is better off being a
rambler and avoiding the accoutrements of marriage/fixed dwelling/
etc.
     For those who want more info, references, etc., I'll be glad to
provide them separately . . . no use taking up space in sfl for
this, as it's a bit off the beaten path.

Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 84 11:48:36 EST
From: DELTUVIA@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Lecture by Leonard Nimoy



What:  "In Search of...", a Lecture by Leonard Nimoy
Where: Ocean County College, Toms River, NJ (about an hour south of
NB)
When:   Wednesday, May 2, 1984, at 7:00 P.M.
Cost:   $6.00 (unless you're an OCC alumnus, in which case $4.00)
More Info: (201) 255-4000, ask for the student center.

                                -John Deltuvia

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #48
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Mar 84 1132-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Mar 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:
          Books - Anderson & Dewdney & Farmer & Heinlein &
                  Lem & Stapeldon & Villiers,
          Films - Movie Release Schedule & Creation of the Humanoids,
          Miscellaneous - Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object &
                  Proverbs & That Old Time Religion 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 20 Mar 1984 14:37-PST
Subject: D&D in Space
From: meier@ISL at Sumex-Aim

        The story requested by Liz Scheller-Lee was "The Saturn
Game" by Poul Anderson and is included in one of his collections
which is currently being borrowed, so I can't quote the title of the
anthology.  The actual plot is that a team of about 100 scientists
aboard a mobile habitat has gone to investigate the Saturnian
system.  At Saturn, they broke up into smaller research teams to
investigate the various moons.  The four protagonists of the sytem
were sent to Iapetus(?).  During the outbound trip, several D & D
games were started among the crew and three of the protagonists were
involved in a game.  Unconsciously, these D & D games centered
around fantasy environments that resembled the moons that the
respective parties would be exploring.  When placed in the actual
satellite environments, the explorers acted as if they were in the
fantasy environment, with deadly consequences.  (Fighting dragons is
always perilous even if the dragons are imagined.)
        Poul Anderson gives a detailed and credulous account of a
potential problem that exists when people are subject to a closed
community for a long time.  His account shows how the psychological
defenses built up against the closed environment can become lethal
when the person is suddenly exposed to the right situation.  This
would be a serious problem for real space exploration except that
the solution is obvious.  (I'll not spoil the story by revealing it
here.)  His framing of the problem is both enjoyable and
thought-provoking.  I would highly recommend this story and the
anthology that contains it.
                                        Bob (isl!meier@shasta)

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for the same
information:

Frederick Paul Kiesche III (Kiesche@RU-BLUE)
hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan @ Ucb-Vax
Audrey Ishizaki (hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax)
Lee Gold (<decvax!allegra!sdcrdcf!leeway@Berkeley>)
rg.jmturn%mit-oz@mit-mc
d-lamb%tartan@cmu-cs-c
]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Mar 84 01:15:25-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.Trei@CU20B>
Subject: The Planiverse, by AK Dewdney.

        The Planiverse (Computer contact with a two-dimensional
world).  by A.K. Dewdney. Poseiden Press (1984). $9.95, 267 pp.,
trade paperback.  0-671-46363-2 (-4 for hardback).
        Back when I was in high school, one of my math teachers,
aware of my interest in SF, loaned me his copy of A. Abbott's
Flatland, a fantasy written back in 1884 describing a society
inhabiting a 2-dimensional universe. It was fascinating, and
certainly one of the earliest alternate-universe stories I can think
of (do check it out if you can).
        A.K. Dewdney, a CS professor at the University of Western
Ontario, has updated the Abbott's idea, and drawn it out in far
greater detail. With the collaboration of many scientists, he has
restructured Flatland, giving it astrophysics, geology, chemistry,
gravity, biology, and politics. In the book we follow Yndrd, an
inhabitant of the planet Arde, as he travels across his world. He
sees, (and we get to watch) two-dimensional fishing boats, housing,
monsters, steelmills, and cities. He visits the local equivalent of
a university, and we learn of two-dimensional biology, chemistry,
and computer science (beleive it or not, you CAN make two signal
paths cross in 2D, but it's tricky.) The 2D steam-engine is
particularly elegant, and his people also travel by balloon and
rocket. There is even a space station in orbit around his world.
        What makes this all SF rather than just a travelogue is the
way we are in contact with Yndrd; Dr. Dewdney presents the contact
as an accidental byproduct of an experimental simulation of a 2D
world, which somehow resonated with a real Flatland, and put him
into contact with it. On the periphery of the story are the efforts
of himself and the few students in on the contact to keep it a
secret from the university administration, which is firmly opposed
to strange goings on in the CS building late at night.
        I can't say this is deathless prose, but if you saw the
early report on this project which Martin Gardner made in Scientific
American a couple years back, I know you will rush out to get it. If
you liked Hal Clement's "Mission of Gravity" or Forward's more
recent "Dragon's Egg", you will also like it. As an alternate-world
story, it's a little weak on plot, but very strong on ideas and
imagination.
        I cannot leave this review forgetting to mention that The
Planiverse is copiously illustrated by the author, to its great
advantage (try describing a two-dimensional piano without drawing
it!). There is also an appendix which describes many of the facets
of his world which Yndrd never get gets around to.
        Despite the price, this is a must-read book for anyone with
an imagination.
                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20


PS: Has'nt the MZB/feminisim debate gotton a little out of hand? We
are having comments on peoples comments on peoples comments! (Is
that a self-referential sentence?).
                                                     PT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 84 13:50 MST
From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Farmer's Riverworld

Well, I finally got up the drive to read The Magic Labyrinth (book 4 
of Riverworld).  It took a long time to start due to the discouraging
reviews I have read in this meeting.  I was pleasantly surprised.  I
enjoyed the book and I think it did quite a good job of wrapping up
the Riverworld mystery.  Maybe I missed something, but I thought the
reason behind it all was quite good.  The series is quite long,
though, and I would not read it a second time.

               >RUSTY< RNeal.dm8%pco -at cisl

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 84 7:43:07-PST (Thu)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein and an oldie but goodie

Good to see the defenses of Heinlein and Friday.  I enjoyed Friday, 
and my wife who rarely reads sf also read and enjoyed it.  Heinlein is
no god, but he can write a very readable yarn.

                                        Rick Coates
                                        tektronix!iddic!rickc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 84 13:50 MST
From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Stanislaw Lem

Now to Lem.  I have seen some transactions claiming what a great 
writer he is.  I have read The Cyberiad, Solaris, and The Invincible.
The Cyberiad was very good and very funny, and the other two (both
novels, while The Cyberiad is a collection of shorts) started off
well.  But he has an extreme problem ending those two novels!  The
Invincible started off great and got better, but when I got to the
end, I was looking for at least another chapter.  It was as if he ran
out of paper.  It really ticked me off for such a great book to have
such a lack of ending.  I read Solaris because I heard some of the
plot and was interested (and I figured it couldn't just drop off like
the other did-he is supposed to be a good writer).  ss Solaris is good
about 1/3 of the way through.  Then it starts a down hill run the
likes of which I have never encountered before.  By the time I waded
through the muck to the end (I never leave a book unfinished) I wished
I had never heard of Lem and never started this book!

So that some of you out there will know what type of stuff I do like 
(so you can determine if these reviews will do you any good), my 
favorites are Niven, Chalker, Hogan, Piers Anthony, "Doc" Smith, and 
Alan Dean Foster to name a few...

               >RUSTY< RNeal.dm8%pco -at cisl

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 84 7:43:07-PST (Thu)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Heinlein and an oldie but goodie

With all the discussion on the net of favorite and famous authors, I 
am surprised that Olaf Stapeldon has never been mentioned.  His books
Odd John (1935) and Sirius (1944) are readable and philosophically
interesting.  Together with his other books (Last and First Men
(1930), Last Men in London (1932), and Star Maker (1937), all of which
are less accesible than the first two) his work touches on almost all
modern science fiction themes, from interplanetary travel to genetic
engineering.  If you're looking for sf with a different slant (heavily
philosopical), or are interested in the history of sf, look into these
books.  Odd John and Sirius are available in one volume from Dover
books, and the others are available from Penguin.
                                        Rick Coates
                                        tektronix!iddic!rickc

------------------------------

Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 12:58:32-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Query on Anthony Villiers

At the end of the last book in the reprinting of the Anthony
Villiers novels by ACE, there was a note to be on the alert for THE
GALACTIC PANTOGRAPH, supposedly a forthcoming book. That was a
couple of years ago. Does anyone know whether Panshin ever finished
the book, and if so, was it published anywhere?

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 11:35:51 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: MOVIE RELEASE SCHEDULE

Dear All:

The latest STARLOG features a schedule for this summer's films--both
SF and non-SF.  Here then, is your chance to plan your summer
schedule:

March 9--SPLASH

March 16--THE ICE PIRATES

March 23--MUTANT

MARCH 30--GREYSTOKE:  THE LEGEND OF TARZAN, LORD OF THE APES
          ROMANCING THE STONE

SPRING RELEASE DATES--TENTATIVE:

HEARTS IN ARMOR
SLAPSTICK*
THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET*

April 13--ICEMAN

May 11--FIRESTARTER

May 18--FRIDAY THE 13TH, PART IV*

May 23--INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM (!!!!!!!!!!!)

June 1--STAR TREK III--THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (!!!!!!!!!!)

June 8--GREMLINS
        STREETS OF FIRE

June 15--GHOSTBUSTERS

June 22--BUCKAROO BANZAI
         THE LAST STARFIGHTER

July--sometime--THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT

July 6--SUPERGIRL

July 13--THE MUPPETS TAKE MANHATTEN

July 29--RETURN OF THE DEAD*

August 17--SHEENA, QUEEN OF THE JUNGLE
           CLOAK AND DAGGER

Fall--sometime--CREEPSHOW II*
                CONAN II*

October--sometime--THE NEVERENDING STORY*

December 7--DUNE
            2010:  ODYSSEY TWO/2010:  THE ODYSSEY CONTINUES*

Christmas--STARMAN*
           ANNIE II*
           BABY*
           LADYHAWKE*

*Tentative release date....

See you all in line!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 19 Mar 1984 20:02:11-PST
From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!benson@Shasta
Subject: Re: Creation of the Humanoids

   Creation of the Humanoids is my favorite "cheezy" sci-fi movie
(the best kind). In fact, I have the original movie poster (from
1962) hanging on the wall nearby - it reads:

                NEVER HAS THE SCREEN BROUGHT YOU
                  A MORE SHOCKING REVELATION!

Man's Own Creation! Can he control machines that PRODUCE people?

                Out of a World War III Came...

                "THE CREATION OF THE HUMANOIDS"
                       in Eastman Color

                           Starring

                  Don Megowan    Erica Elliot
                Frances McCann    Don Doolittle

                   Produced by Edward J. Kay
                   Directed by Wesley Barry
                   Screenplay by Jay Simms

                     A Genie Production
           Released through Emerson Film Enterprises

   Unfortunately I can't reproduce the stills and drawings in ASCII.
The large center drawing shows two humanoids (who resemble DEVO
members) working on another, in a glass tube. Four more are standing
in tubes nearby. A still showing Craigus and his sister is captioned
"Was she one of the green-blooded people?" which seems to bear no
relation to what happens in the movie. A close up of a humanoid,
which is also none too accurate, asks "Was this monster created by
an electronic computer?"
   I think this is a must-see for anyone in the computer field. The
adjective "talky", used in an earlier message about this movie, is
very accurate. There are only about 5 very minimal sets, and little
action. Even if you can't sit through the whole thing (though it's
only 75 minutes long), be sure to tune in for the last 10 minutes.
They're hilarious - to me, anyway.

Tom Benson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 84 21:31:07-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object

A                     _______________+
Bug      <---         [______________|  <set on kill>
                               |     |
                               |_____|

>>Question was asked: A hypothetical paradox: What would happen in a
>>battle between an Enterprise security team, who always get killed
>>soon after appearing, and a squad of Imperial Stormtroopers, who
>>can't hit the broad side of a planet?

>>tom galloway

Answer: The redshirts would get killed by whatever they were down
there to investigate in the first place!  If that happened to be the
storm troopers, then they get killed by the ricochets.  If all else
fails, they can always get zapped by a plant.  This would leave the
stormtroopers free to crack themselves up on skybikes, shoot each
other, and have their idea of a good time.  If you worked for Moff
Tarkin, maybe that's what you'd do?

                {BTL}!charm!mam

------------------------------

Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 18:27:56-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Goosey, goosey gander

The nursery rhyme "Goosey, goosey gander" has nothing to do with the
proverb "What's sauce for the Goose ...".  The original rhyme reads

        Gandey, goosey gander
        Whither dost thou wander
        Upstairs, downstairs
        In Our Lady's chamber

        If we find a Proctor
        That will not say his prayers
        We'll grab him by his long gown
        And throw him down the stairs

It is an undergraduate taunt, from the English Reformation, and
refers to the regulation that all academics at the two English
universities had to be practicing members of the Anglican church
(which the undergraduates tended to enforce with rather unruly means
- school prayer is an older issue than one might think) As is
evident from the fourth line, the hapless Gandey was a closet - ahem
- follower of the Roman rite, and thereby in danger of expulsion
(offical) or defenestration (unofficial).

Robert Firth ( MA(Oxon) )

------------------------------

From: allegra!princeton!tilt!smw@Berkeley
Date: 20 Mar 1984 03:07-EST
Subject: That Old Time Religion (no, not ANOTHER verse!)

In one verse, THREE great universes...

We'll invoke the blessed Camber, < Katherine Kurtz's Deryni
And the Unicorn of Amber,        < Roger Zelazny's Amber
And the wizard Deliamber,        < Robert Silverberg's Majipoor
They're good enough for me!!

Stewart Wiener, Princeton Univ. EECS
UUCP: allegra!princeton!tilt!smw
ARPA: allegra!princeton!tilt!smw@Berkeley
BITNET: Q2933@PUCC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #49
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Mar 84 1230-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:
                Books - Bradley & Herbert (2 msgs) &
                        The Void Captain's Tale &
                        Best Novels of '84 & Stories Wanted,
                Films - Desolation Operas (2 msgs),
                Games - Chaosium Releases,
                Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 12:51:43-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: THENDARA HOUSE

Mr. Maurer would like to hear about
       For example, a man who loves his wife and children (golly,
       maybe he dosen't even beat her when their baby turns out to
       be a girl), but sure as hell isn't going to give them any
       modern-day freedoms...
in one of MZB's novels.

What about the title character's father, The MacAran, in
*Hawkmistress*?  He loves his daughter dearly, but he won't put up
with any of her tomboy nonsense, and tries to force her into a
marriage against her will.  Yet he is presented as a sympathetic
character.  His daughter even loves him, in spite of their strong
philosophical differences.

(Just for the record, I thought that Mists of Avalon was terrible,
even though I'm a rabid Arthurian.  Maybe BECAUSE I'm a rabid
Arthurian.  So you don't have to be an MZB idolizer to like some of
her works.)

Betsy Perry
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 84 15:31:00-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler

Six books?

        A Sexology, of course!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 84 13:51:52-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler

orstcs!nathan sez:

>>      Six books?  A Sexology, of course!

Nice try, Nathan, but it's a Hexology.

                        John Hobson
                        AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL
                        ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 84 20:37:46-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Void Captain's Tale - (nf)

    This is a statement (story?) to defend "The Void Captain's Tale"
which, in my opinion, is its own best defense.  However since it
can't be here to speak for itself, I shall attempt the effort. "The
Void Captain's Tale" is a story about the ways and mores of a
possible future society.  To be more exact, this story is the
conflict of one man's changing philosophy of life versus that of his
society's.  This note/response is prompted by a very surprising
previous note giving warning to avoid this book.
    One person claimed the characters in this story to be shallow
and therefore uninteresting.  However I contend that the author
purposely made these characters to be shallow -- *not* a shallowness
of the ordinary sense but rather of a sense preprogrammed to create
an impression of a society full of decadence and meaningless social
ideals.
    Certainly the plot in this story is shallow!  (if you consider
it from an adventure book's point of view).  But when one looks at
the book as it was meant to be seen, one finds an incredibly
fascinating interplay of social ideas.  This is where the plot lies
-- on a level that some people seem might overlook.  Certainly there
are some who would find this style uninteresting, but I would hardly
call it weak.
    In reading this book, one is first amazed by the complex yet
talented style in which the author writes.  Then upon reflection the
meaning of the book settles in like the pleasing aftertaste of a
fine wine.  It is rare that one finds an author *capable* of
producing such works of intricate finery and I would warn any reader
not to read such a book too fast lest he lose track of the flow,
becoming confused or bored.  I will give this warning.  This book is
not for everybody.  There will be those who don't understand it and
those who have no patience for the written style.  But if you are
not limited to this catagory, find a copy of "The Void Captain's
Tale" and see what you are missing!

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Mar 84 00:24:11-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: best novels of '84

Anubis Gates, Practice Effect ? You've got to be kidding. The Anubis
Gates was one of those novels written in a deliberately obtuse
style, so as to hide what is going on for as long as possible from
the reader. I've seen worse attempts, I'll admit, but even besides
the quality of the writing, which was only mediocre, the plot and
story-ideas were pretty dumb. Really, magic being anti-terrestrial!
And the Practice Effect was a pure hack; it wasn't particularly
offensive, but hardly worth mentioning; both these novels are based
on such bizarre premises that the writer would have to do an
exceptional job of presenting the environment; in neither case was
this accomplished.

I liked the previous attempts of both writers much better than their
latest productions.

I nominate The Adversary for best novel so far of '84. This is not
because The Adversary is that spectacular; it is not the best novel
of the series, but I just haven't read anything very good this year.

-Laurence

I seem to have gone semi-colon happy in the first paragraph; oh
well; no one's perfect.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 16:14:55-PST
From: Andy Freeman <ANDY@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: pointer to stories wanted

The stories I'm interested in were about physical constraints on
beings and objects in science fiction stories.  The ones I remember
were an analysis on how the invisible man's eyes would work and a
question about why giant spiders don't asphyxiate instead of
destroying NYC.  It was in response to an earlier story which stated
baldly that the invisible man must be blind.  (The constants work
out so that the dark spots are dim enough that you would probably
not notice them.)

Please respond directly to andy@su-score as I am not a subscriber.

thanks,
-andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed 21 Mar 84 01:42:58-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Desolation movies.

I'd like to point out that Mad Max occurs in a contemporary
pre-holocaust setting.  It is basically cops driving around in
suped-up cars chasing motorcycle gangs.  Road Warrior is a very
loose sequel, the only thing they have in common is the main
character.

Another movie you should add to the list is Damnation Alley.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 84 22:08:27-EST (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: Desolation Operas

        While I agree with the point that Nick Nicoll was making
about "Desolation Opera" movies, I object to his simply tossing off
THE ROAD WARRIOR as just a bigger budget remake of MAD MAX.
Superficially, that seems to be the case, but thematically, they are
complete opposites.
        In MAD MAX, our hero is a caring human being, who while
believing that his job of "serving and protecting" is an important
one, also is becoming disillusioned with the restraints that the
police have to work under (a common vigilante theme), especially
when his best friend on the force is burned almost to death after a
member of the biker gang is released on a technicality. In addition,
he seems to have a growing distaste for the not-by-the-book
practices of many of the police, to the point where he tells his
supervisor something on the order of, "The only difference between
us and them is that we're wearing badges." By the end of the film,
he has lost everything that he cares about in the world, his best
friend, his wife, and his son. As a result, he also loses his
humanity.
        In THE ROAD WARRIOR, we see Max as just another desert rat,
roaming the roads searching for food and petrol, scavenging it from
wrecks, or stealing it from others. Human life means nothing to him
these days; notice how he treats the Gyro Captain. Whoever has the
gold makes the rules, Might makes right, and all that. What his
travails in this film do is to show him that alone, he *is* just
another scavenger, and that human life and the need to strive for
something better is worthwhile. He finds that he needs others just
as others need him, and this very fact helps him regain the humanity
that he lost in the first film.
        This is a common theme in literature --- the losing of
humanity (or faith or whatever other positive values) and the
regaining of same through dramatic conflict. Usually this is done
all in one story, whereas with Max, it's done in two. Perhaps
instead of a remake of MAD MAX, THE ROAD WARRIOR is really the
completion of MAD MAX.
        I recall a couple of interviews with George Miller in which
he said that he wouldn't do a third Mad Max film just for the sake
of doing another one, but only if he had a theme that expanded the
character to the next step (whatever that might be). The fact that
he is supposedly doing a third film presumably means that he's found
such a theme, and if he has, I look forward to that film more than
just about any other.
        While it may sound pretentious to say so, I have to agree
with the assessment that Mad Max is an epic character in the true
sense of the term. Put in a way perhaps more familiar to SF/Fantasy
fans, I see Max as being yet another aspect of Moorcock's concept of
The Eternal Champion, seen in terms of the society that he is part
of --- the Road Warrior.
                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 84 13:33:05 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Chaosium Releases
Cc: fischer@RU-BLUE.ARPA, jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA, sherman@RU-BLUE.ARPA

I just got a catalog (dated Winter 1983...so they are a little
slow...)  from CHAOSIUM GAMES, which includes mention of the
following new releases:

Masks of Nyarlathotep (for CALL OF CTHULHU), an adventure which
promises to be "the largest and most extensive published to date".
Release date is Winter, 1983--however, I haven't seen it yet, so I
would guess that gremlins have delayed this product.

Ringworld--a major new RPG, based on the works of Larry Niven.
Again, release date is indicated to be Winter, 1983, but again,
delays have cropped up.

Elfquest--a major RPG based on the comics/books/etc., of the same
name...Release is slated for Winter, 1984.

Pendragon--a RPG based on the legends of King Arthur, Lancelot, et
al.  Release is for Spring, 1984.

Stormbringer Companion--a companion guide to the RPG Stormbringer.
Now out.

The King Arthur Companion--a LITERARY companion to the Arthurian
legends.  Not for any particular gaming system, or even for games in
particular.

More news as it develops...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 18:21:58-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: The Drs Who

Upto the showing of The Five Doctors, the Doctors had been:

1.  William Hartnell (1963-1966) - now alas deceased

        "He was an irascible, snappy old man ... a brilliant
         eccentric old man who had no patience at all with
         us common mortals"

[ all quotes from the BBC Dr Who 20th Anniversary Special ]

When Mr Hartnell had to leave, through ill-health, the series
authors came up with the idea of having the Docoter "regenerate",
which he did at the end of "The Tenth Planet" amid scenes of snowy
desolation in Antarctica.

2.  Patrick Troughton (1966-1969)

        "I started off by making him very clownish,
         and going over the top really, partly to
         make a very clean break from Bill's Doctor"

This was the twit with the flute, and some rather unappealing silly
companions.  Mr Troughton also played in The Six Wives of Henry
VIII.  At the end of The War Games, the Time Lords finally caught up
with the Doctor, and enforced another regeneration.  They also
stopped him travelling in time and space by removing part of his
Tardis.

3.  Jon Pertwee (1969-1974)

        "... my Doctor was the Dandy!"

In my opinion, the best Doctor.  The +XIX opera gear was great, and
the adventures were well plotted (probably because the writers
couldn't just dump the Tardis somewhere strange and waste three
reels teasing us about just where or when they all were).  This was
also the Doctor of UNIT, Brig. Lethbridge-Stewart, and Katy Manning.
It is rumoured that Mr Pertwee was very upset when Miss Manning left
the series to get married, and his emotion at the end of The Green
Death was not all unreal.  In fact, Mr Pertwee stayed for a further
4 stories, and regenerated in Planet of the Spiders, after almost
being destroyed when the Great One exploded.

4.  Tom Baker (1974-1979)

        "What the Doctor did have, he [Mr Baker] hopes, was a
        certain childlike quality, a genuine curiosity about
        anything and everything, ... the capacity for being
        constantly surprised"

Mr Baker could also play well with the Companions: the cross-
characterisation with Louise Jameson and Lalla Ward was far more
believable that the stuff in the old days, when the Doctor was
omnicompetent and all the girls had to do was scream at the right
moment.  He regenerated after Logopolis, ostensibly because he had
been injured falling off a radio telescope; in fact to marry Lalla
Ward.  He later appeared as Rasputin in a BBC play (and Lalla Ward
was Ophelia in that dreadfully limp BBC Hamlet).

5.  Peter Davison (1979-1983)

        "I felt it was very important to put back the idea
        that the Doctor was vulnerable, and could be
        defeated"

The last of the five.  I haven't even seen the sixth yet, so can't
comment.

The Dr Who 20th Anniversary Special (Copyright BBC MCMLXXXIII)
is obtainable from

        BBC Publications
        35 Marylebone High Street
        London  W1M 4AA
        England

price 30/- or L1-50 in that damned decimal money.

"Doctor, are you SURE this is Pittsburgh?"

- Robert Firth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #50
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Mar 84 1349-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Mar 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:
             Books - Asimov & Bradley & Brin & Delany &
                     Dewdney & Hubbard (4 msgs) & Lem & Niven &
                     Silverberg & Stapledon & Villiers & Title Request,
             Films - Movie Query & High Speed Film & Star Wars,
             Television - V & Dr. Who,
             Miscellaneous - FTL

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Long train trip for Dr. A.?
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 84 13:14 EST

In the most recent issue of InfoWorld (April 9) there is an upcoming
announcement for the "International Personal Robot Congress and
Exposition 1984" being held in Albuquerque, New Mexico.  The keynote
speaker is Dr. Isaac Asimov.
   Asimov dislikes flying.  Does anyone know if he is actually
speaking at the IPRCaE?
  -steve

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 84 13:38:21-PST (Tue)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: THENDARA HOUSE

>   What about the title character's father, The MacAran, in
>   *Hawkmistress*?  He loves his daughter dearly, but he won't put
>   up with any of her tomboy nonsense, and tries to force her into
>   a marriage against her will.  Yet he is presented as a
>   sympathetic character.  His daughter even loves him, in spite of
>   their strong philosophical differences.

    Hmmm, you might have got me there.  I haven't read the book.  (I
    think about the only one I don't have).

    Does he finally recant later in the story??  (like what happened
    in Two to Conquer).

    Steven Maurer

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 84 1:38:00-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Practice Effect **teensie spoile - (nf)

I liked 'The Practice Effect' too.  I sure wish I could 'practice'
my programs.  Imagine how good uucp would be by now!  Or FORTRAN!

  --berry

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 84 14:11:04-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!louie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Farmer's Riverworld and Stanislaw Lem

Dhalgren!  I thought I was really missing something.  I've never
been able to get past the first 100 pages or so on a number of
attempts to read it.  Anyone want a copy of it for REAL cheap?  This
is definitely one I don't want to keep.

Louis A. Mamakos - Computer Science Center (Systems Staff)
   - Univ. of Maryland
Internet: louie@cvl.ARPA
uucp: ...!{seismo,ihnp4,allegra}!rlgvax!cvl!louie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Mar 84 12:28:51 pst
From: Dennis Cottel <dennis%cod@Nosc>
Subject: Re: A. K. Dewdney

Beginning next month, A. K. Dewdney, author of the recently reviewed
'The Planiverse', will be writing the "Computer Recreations"
department of Scientific American.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 21 Mar 1984 20:08:06-PST
From: clairmont%elwood.DEC@purdue-merlin.ARPA  (Are we having fun
From: yet?)
Subject: Battlefield Earth



Has anybody read "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard, a relatively
new publication in paperback?  I recently enjoyed "The Forever War"
by Joe Haldeman (?) and wonder if the same sort of shoot-'em-up high
tech action exists in the new book.

        Gary Clairmont

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 84 14:30:32-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Battle Field Earth

Battle Field Earth is a classic example of what advertising can do
for a really poor book.  The kind of book that critics of Sci-Fi
point to and laugh.  L. Ron Hubbard (he can't even write his name
correctly) should have written a few Perry Rhodan books, he would
have fit right in...
                                Rick Schieve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 84 12:33:38-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!neves @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Battle Field Earth

Battlefield Earth is a good book.  I bought it a few weeks ago when
it came out in paperback (I'm a sucker for large books) and was
surprised it was as good as it was.  Believe it or not I was not
bored reading any part of the 1100 pages.  It is none stop action in
the tradition of the early science fiction of the 40's and 50's.
The story (which is man vs alien) and future environment is
believable and interesting.  Unlike many large books it does not
span centuries but takes place in just a few years time with a
relatively small main cast of characters.

The story revolves around an alien mining company that has taken
over earth to mine its minerals.  The human race has been largely
decimated, there are just a few thousand left, living like
primitives.  An amusing couple of paragraphs in the beginning of the
book shows how the mining company found out about earth.

" Man apparently sent out some kind of probe that gave full
directions to the place, had pictures of man on it and everything.
It got picked up by a Psychlo recon.  And you know what? [...] The
probe and the pictures were on a metal that was rare everywhere and
worth a clanking fortune.  And Intergalactic paid the Psychlo
governors sixth trillion Galactic credits for the directions and the
concession."  -dave

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 84 6:23:14-PST (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Battle Field Earth

What trash!!  A hero named "Jonnie Goodboy Tyler", that saves the
world from believable bay guy aliens, exterminating the whole race
of aliens almost single-handedly only to face the worst challenge to
the earth's safety......  REPOSSESSION by the GALACTIC BANK!!!!!!

        no thanks L. Ron Hubbard (the L. must stand for Ludicrous)

                                Rick Schieve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 84 14:33:13-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!h
From: cr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Farmer's Riverworld and Stanislaw Lem

Cheers! I couldn't agree more. I had heard that Solaris was
considered one of S-F's classics, and therefore thought that I was
missing the point as I read the story. By the end of it however, I
realized that pseudo-sentient world books were simply not up my
alley. It was nearly as bad as Dahlgren, and I really deserve a
medal for reading THAT one to the end.

                        Paul Bonneau
                        hcr!hcrvax!paulb

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 84 10:20:37-EDT (Wed)
From: Jcc%nsf-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Larry Niven/Integral Trees

Larry Niven will be autographing copies of Integral Trees in
Washington DC at the Moonstone Bookstore 2145 Pennsylvania Ave. on
March 28th. For details call the store.

john cherniavsky
jcc.nsf@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 84 11:06:26-EDT (Tue)
From: Jcc%nsf-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: DYING INSIDE

One of Silverberg's better novels, DYING INSIDE, has just been
re-issued.  In broad outline, the story concerns a man losing his
gift of telepathy (receive only variety). In style and tone it is
similar to Silverberg's THE BOOK OF SKULLS. I highly recommend it.
In my opinion it is one of the best written SF novels I've come
across.

john cherniavsky
jcc.nsf@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Subject: more Stapeldon
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 84 15:31:37 EST
From: Peter Midford <Midford@YALE.ARPA>

I'm glad someone got around to mentioning one of my favorites.  I
can add Nebula Maker (posthumous 1976) has been widely availible in
from Dodd and Mead for the past few months.  This predcessor to Star
Maker is shorter and a little more accessible introduction to the
different style of Last and First Men and Star Maker.  I wasn't as
pleased with the essays.  Finally does anyone know if Darkness and
Light (1942 ?) is avalible/in print?

                                            Kir azu
                                            Peter Midford

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 84 9:01:25-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Query on Anthony Villiers

I spoke to Alexei Panshin at Boskone this year (February, 1984)
about the Villiers books.  He said that 'there would be five to
seven of them eventually, but that the Ace publications (now
out-of-print) were the only ones which had seen the light of day.'

*deep sigh*.  Anybody know of a good source for the out-of-print
Panshin books? (I'd be happy to pay postage, finders fees, etc.
etc.)

Betsy Perry
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 22 Mar 1984 07:38:26-PST
From: bishop_2%babel.DEC@purdue-merlin.ARPA  (JB)
Subject: Title Request

I'm trying to find the author and title of a story or novelette in
which the hero, a reporter named Flannery, is sent to the planet
Frostbite and uncovers a drug ring run by a man named Parsons.  The
drug is called "JKB", and is supposedly addictive with one dose.
The technology of news is all newspaper-style, complete with an AP
wire service.  Thank you.
                                -John Bishop

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 84 13:20:37 PST
From: Willard Korfhage <korfhage@UCLA-ATS.ARPA>
Subject: Movie query: Stalker, Solaris

  I see by a movie schedule that "Stalker" and "Solaris" (Soviet
films by director Andrei Tarkoysky) will be appearing out here.
Does anyone have comments about these?  Stalker was mentioned some
time ago in SFL, but I can't get at the old SFL volumes and look it
up.

                Thanks,

                Willard Korfhage
                korfhage@ucla-ats

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Mar 84 15:01:29 EST
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: high spped film

Hello,
        Has any one been keeping up with what is going on with high
speed film?  I was reading somewhere that Lucas or Spielberg was
working on a film that had twice as many frames per second as
normal.  They said that the more you increase the number of frames
per second the more reaction and emotion the audience feels.  They
assimilated the effect as the same as the brainstorm type tape.
        The idea wouldn't go over big because of the cost of
replacing all the projection equipment and the amount of film
needed, but it might be good for certain areas.
        Any info on this subject would be appreciated.
                                thanks,
                                craig

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 84 10:27:23-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!clyde!akgua!gatech!dj
From: b @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Edited Star Wars & book comment

Your memory is still intact (you haven't lost your sanity).  The
scenes which you were missing were in the novel not in the movie.
As for the title "A New Hope" - my understanding is that that was
added when George Lucas decided that Star Wars was a large enough
success to go ahead with his original plan - a trilogy of trilogies.
Star Wars happens to be the first of the middle trilogy.  (I wish I
could remember wehre I heard/read/hallucinated all this....seems I
have the impression that the source was reliable.)

As for reading the books - I have found that I enjoy both the book
and the movie much more if I see the movie a couple of times, read
the book, and then go for the record numbers of sittings in a
theater.  The books bring out some personal background for certain
situations which are not apparent in the film (Darth Vader's return
to 'good' for example).

(Anybody else think AT&T's new logo looks like the Death Star?????)

David 'have you been under the raised floor today?' Buechner
UUCP :
...!{akgua,allegra,emory,rlgvax,sb1,ut-ngp,ut-sally}!gatech!djb
ARPA : djb.gatech@CSNet-Relay                CSNET : djb@gatech

Federal snail : Ga. Tech P.O. Box 33336, Atlanta, Georgia 30332
Newsgroups: net.movies.sw

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Mar 84 07:14 MST
From: Dickson.Scouting@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA (Paul W. Dickson)
Subject: V

I just read in my morning newspaper that NBC will be showing "V Part
II: The Final Act" on May 6th through the 8th.  The article was on
how, when the networks final show something worth watching, another
network shows something that is equally interesting at the same time
(the other show is "The Last Days of Pompei" on ABC).

                              Paul Dickson
                              Dickson%pco@cisl

P.S.  Has anyone notice that when you sound out miniseries you get
min-is-er-ies.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 84 14:31:58-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The new Dr Who

This is in response to Chris Heiny's article a while back in
sf-lovers.  I tried to get a reply through, but the UUCP to ARPA
daemon showed up.  Steve Clark will also be interested....

Regarding Adric and Tegan Jovanka....

     Some good news and some bad news....Adric does go...Tegan
Jovanka, on the other hand, is around until the end of the Davisons.
Chris, you, as well as everyone else who is finally getting to see
Doctor 5, should be seeing "Earthshock" shortly, in which the
CYBERMEN return, and Adric is made to leave.  Please note, however,
that Jamie (from the Troughton era) was as, if not more, annoying
than Adric.

                                Happy Times and Places,

                                -The Parker Hobbit
                                 a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri

UUCP:   {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit
        decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit
ARPA & CSNET:   hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 84 23:14:26-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm
From: -cvax!nmtvax!cooley @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FTL

                FTL travel has interesting possibilities when you
consider time as a series of events perceived by the senses and
strung together as a continuous line by consciousness. This is the
same as saying that time is simultaneous and all events happen at
the same "time".
                If such is the case than the likely place to go when
one passes the speed of light is into a different probability
system. Note: I'm not saying that the speed of light is a barrier,
but merely that as you approach the speed of light, your perceptual
network becomes discontinuous with the networks of those at
different speeds (relative to you).
                If you were a telepath traveling at very near the
speed of light, and you tuned in to a telepath moving at a
relatively slow speed, would you be able to read his/her thoughts or
would they be too fast?
                After all, if two photons are traveling towards each
other at the speed of light, isn't the distance between them
shrinking at twice the speed of light? Both the photons and the
distance between them are perceptual objects: In one framework we
are measuring speed of travel from point A to point B, in the other
we are measuring rate of shrinkage. 1 = 1c, 2 = 2c.

                                                Michael Cooley
                                                Socorro, NM
                                                c/o twilight zone

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #51
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Mar 84 1412-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #51
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Mar 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:
           Books - Brin & Clements & Heinlein & Hubbard &
                   Kornbluth & Soviet SF,
           Films - "Stalker" and "Solaris" & High Speed Films (3 msgs),
           Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) & The Tomorrow People

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Mar 1984 at 06:37 EST
From: ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley
Subject: "The Practice Effect"

I just finished David Brin's new "The Practice Effect"; it's a good
book, but not as promising as his earlier two.  The book is set in a
different context; the hero is a Earth mathematical physicist who
travels to a world with different physical laws - the "Practice
Effect".

Unfortunately, Brin's final explanation for everything - like in
"Sundiver" - is a bit obscure.  He still has his tendency for too
many '!' marks, too.

I wouldn't rate this book as his best - "Startide Rising" still is
that.  However, for $2.75 it's well worth reading.  And I am looking
forward to his next book...

-Alan

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 84 23:04:37-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!zben @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Title Request ("Frostbite, drugs")

[I took the liberty of adding to the subject.  It was unreasonably
general.]

    I'm trying to find the author and title of a story or novelette
    in which the hero, a reporter named Flannery, is sent to the
    planet Frostbite and uncovers a drug ring run by a man named
    Parsons.  The drug is called "JKB", and is supposedly addictive
    with one dose.  The technology of news is all newspaper-style,
    complete with an AP wire service.  Thank you.

                                -John Bishop

This sounds much like a book by Hal Clements titled "Iceworld".  I
won't spoil it for other readers, but does the name "tofacco" mean
anything to you?

You might also be interested in "The Nitrogen Fix", by the same
author.

Ben Cranston      ...seismo!umcp-cs!zben       zben@umd2.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 84 19:59:49-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: FRIDAY and Heinlein

Here comes my off-net friend again:

Commentary on:

>    From kcarroll@utzoo.UUCP Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969
>    Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers
>    Subject: Re: Heinlein and FRIDAY
>    Date: Mon, 12-Mar-84 16:43:25 EST
>
>    I've got an idea: why not interpret the novel Friday based on
>    what's in it, rather than what you wish was in it?

A cheap shot.  Besides, most criticism of a book consist of telling
what you think the author did wrong and what he/she should have done
instead, i.e. what you wish was in the book.

>    The present controversy is over Friday's marrying a man who had
>    previously raped her.  Well, perhaps she wouldn't have thought
>    of it that way; he was another AP like her, he was a member of
>    her own profession (giving them a common interest), he helped
>    her escape onto the colony planet (if I remember correctly). In
>    addition, she wanted desperately to belong to a family; getting
>    married is a good first step towards that.

This is like saying if a chemist is raped by another chemist, they
are both human beings and they have their work in common.  Give me a
break!

>    I don't remember whether or not there would have been other APs
>    in the colonies; from what I remember, she felt that she
>    couldn't trust regular people, because they might find out her
>    background and turn against her.  In that case, the rapist
>    might have been the one person she could trust.

Run that one by me again please?

>    Besides which, the guy had been kind to her (given that it was
>    his job to rape her; he was kinder than the others involved),
>    and she hadn't had to watch him as she was being raped. Perhaps
>    that made it easier to forget the incident (especially since
>    she'd "turned off" at the time).

The one reasonable point in this whole item.

>    I must admit that I was rather lukewarm about Friday when first
>    I read the book. Now, looking back on the half-remembered plot,
>    and with the flames going back and forth on the net to
>    stimulate thinking about it, I'm growing to appreciate it more.
>    So, keep those flames burning!
>    .XS
>    -Kieran A. Carroll
>    ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

Well, I did want to stimulate thinking.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 1102 EST (Tuesday)
From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-A
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

Is this L. Ron Hubbard the same bozo who fabricated the
pseudo-science of Dianetics from whole cloth, spawning the
Scientology cult?  On that premise alone I have avoided even looking
very closely at Battlefield Earth.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1984 18:26:17-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: title request: Flannery/Frostbite/Parsons/JKB

   This is "Make Mine Mars", by Cyril M. Kornbluth; it's the first
story in his collection A MILE BEYOND THE MOON, and may have been
reprinted elsewhere as well. Note that newspaper technology doesn't
appear at all; Flannery is a reporter \\for a wire service//. (A
classic example of a writer's professions-to-eat-by getting built
into his fiction; Kornbluth was a writer for a wire service for many
years. Elements of this also appear in his novel THE SYNDIC).

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 84 6:54:56-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Gusliar Wonders.

   A number of people have recently mentioned Soviet science
fiction, which has reminded me of an excellent collection of short
stories I recently read by Kirill Bulychev. ( I hope I spelled the
name right.  ) The book is titled Gusliar Wonders, and has a number
of truly remarkable stories in it. ( It also has some that aren't so
remarkable. ) It is put out by Macmillan, and one of the blurbs on
the cover informed me "This is part of a continuing effort by
Macmillan to expand the horizons of modern science fiction with this
Soviet series." Or words to that effect. Has anyone read any of the
other books in the Macmillan series? Or indeed any Russian authors
at all?

{cornell,decvax}!dartvax!karl // karl@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 84 14:26:33 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: "Stalker" and "Solaris"

These are a pair of science fiction movies by a Soviet director
named Andrei Tarkovsky.  The easiest way to tell if you would like
them is your reaction to "2001".  If any moment of "2001" bored you,
you're not going to like "Stalker" at all, and probably not
"Solaris", either.  Tarkovsky's films are beautiful, but slow.
(He's particularly fond of shots of shallow water filled with
assorted debris).  Shots tend to be long, and the story doesn't move
quickly.  For that matter, the films themselves tend to be long (2
1/2 hrs. +).  You need patience to appreciate them, but they have
many virtues for those who can stick with them.  What makes them
really difficult is that, in order to appreciate them, you
absolutely must pay attention to them, even in the slower moments.

        "Solaris" is based on the Lem novel recently discussed in
the digest.  I haven't read the book, but I strongly suspect that it
is much less cryptic than the film.  It concerns a space station set
up above a living planet.  The planet has bizarre effects on the
scientists in the station, even driving some of them to suicide.
Another scientist is sent to investigate, and the film is basically
about his investigation.  No big special effects shots, no
shoot-outs or mad chases, almost no action in the conventional
sense.

        Personally, I prefer "Stalker", which is even slower.  Some
unexplained disaster has caused weird effects in an area of Russia.
Soldiers sent in to investigate it disappear.  The Soviets wall the
area off, and patrol the boundaries.  However, a rumor has gotten
out that there is a room somewhere in the area (called "The Zone")
which, if visited, will give the visitor his true heart's desire.
Two men, a writer and a scientist, hire a guide, known as a stalker,
to take them into the Zone.  It seems peaceful and harmless, but any
mistep can result in their deaths (or maybe it won't; nothing is
certain in the Zone).  The stalker, who can never visit the room
himself, must guide his skeptical clients through the invisible
hazards.  Don't get the idea that this is terribly suspenseful.  The
pace of the film is stately, to put it politely.  The visuals are
stunning, though, and there is great intelligence behind the film.
Again, no real action or special effects.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 84 15:16:35 est
From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: high speed film

        Yes, there is a new high-speed film format being developed.
However, it is Douglass Trumbal (of Brainstorm) who is pushing it,
and you won't see it in a theatre, but in an amusement park.
        It's called showscan.  It uses 70mm film shown at 60 frames
per second onto a spherecal screen.  It does cause more emotional
reaction to the film.  Because of the cost, Trumball has not gotten
backing from any studios yet.  He tried to see it to Showbiz Pizza,
but they decided it was too much for their setup.  He has made a
short film in it, and there are a couple of theatres in amusement
parks.
        I hope this is accurate.  There was an article about it in
Boxoffice a couple of months ago, but I don't have it with me now.

                                -Mark

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 26 March 1984, 14:21-PST
From: Reynolds at Rand-Unix
Subject: "Showscan" / high frame rate film projection

    Date: Fri, 23 Mar 84 15:01:29 EST
    From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBN-UNIX>
    Subject: high spped film

    Hello,
         Has any one been keeping up with what is going on with
    high speed film?  I was reading somewhere that Lucas or
    Spielberg was working on a film that had twice as many frames
    per second as normal.  They said that the more you increase the
    number of frames per second the more reaction and emotion the
    audience feels.  They assimilated the effect as the same as the
    brainstorm type tape.
         The idea wouldn't go over big because of the cost of
    replacing all the projection equipment and the amount of film
    needed, but it might be good for certain areas.
            Any info on this subject would be appreciated.
                                    thanks,
                                    craig

You almost got it right.  The projection system is called "Showscan"
and is being pushed by Douglas Trumbull.  The frame rate is 60 hertz
and the film format is 70mm, but a 35mm version exists.  Interesting
you should make the comparison to the tapes in "Brainstorm".  That
film (produced by Trumbull) was originally intended as a vehicle for
the introduction of Showscan to the theaters.  The idea was that the
"brainstorm device POV" scenes would be in 70mm 60hz Showscan, and
the mundane world view would be done in 35mm 24hz format (printed up
to Showscan).  As it was, that project could not get funding and the
concept became to switch between "Academy Apreture" and widescreen
format.
 -c

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 84 21:27:08 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: high speed film

As you might guess from the BRAINSTORM reference, high-speed film is
the brainchild of Doug Trumbull, director of BRAINSTORM and SILENT
RUNNING.  It is currently being tested in some pizza chain (Showtime
Pizza?) regionally, and a friend of mine in Dallas who has seen the
demo film says it is very, very, impressive.  (He actually used the
predictable "knocks your socks off" phrase.)

Sorry, but I don't remember the name of the process or any technical
details other than the high frame rate.  Apparently Trumbull is
releasing a number of demo films in the future, each a 1/2 hour
short from a particular genre.  If you're living in an area where
you can see this, go do it.  I'm thinking of road-tripping to Dallas
just to do so.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1984  22:16 EST (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Dr. Who

        I recall reading in a previous issue sometime ago that there
exists a Dr. Who archive on some net site, accessable through
anonymous ftp.  Anyone happen to know where it is, if it still
exists?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 20:20:52-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!mlf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dr. Who - Good-bye Tardis

How can they get rid of the police box?  The new generation of kids
may not recognize the thing as a call box, but then I imagine that
young American viewers of a few years back did either, and they
haven't complained.  What with the Doctor becoming so painfully
serious and solemn these days, a TARDIS shaped like an outdated,
incongruous artifact is a badly needed touch of whimsy.
     Yes, they can take away the sonic screwdriver, they can unravel
the scarf, but by God they should not trash the call box.  After
all, what is sacred, anyway?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 1984 11:15:56-EST
From: Bob.Walker at CMU-EE-FARADAY
Subject: Dalek invasion of Pittsburgh

Well, we're finally getting *some* Dr. Who in Pittsburgh.

This Saturday night (actually early Sunday morning), WPGH-53 will
air the two Dr. Who films:

2:00am  "Dr. Who and the Daleks"
        1965
        with Peter Cushing as Dr. Who
        Based on Terry Nation's story "The Daleks",
            from William Hartnell's (the first Doctor's) first
            season


3:30am "The Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 AD"
        1966
        with Peter Cushing as Dr. Who
        Based on Terry Nation's story "The Dalek Invasion of Earth",
            from William Hartnell's second season


"In these films the Doctor is called Doctor Who.  He is not a Time
Lord but a scientist from Earth who has invented a TARDIS.  He has
two granddaughters, and Susan is only 9 years old..."

Info from "The Doctor Who Programme Guide", by Jean-Marc Lofficier,
Target Books, 1981.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1984 20:46:09 PST
Subject: The Tomorrow People
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

I have been watching this REALLY STRANGE program on cable
(Nickleodean(sp?))  called "The Tomorrow People."  It seems to have
been done on a tiny budget (less than Dr. Who even) but seems to be
pretty well done (in a warped way).  Does anyone know the premise of
this show?  (It is from BBC, about 1974, I think).

In short: The heroes are kids (its a kids show) who have special
powers of some sort.  They can teleport (sometimes they need some
kind of gadget, sometimes they don't).  They have some sort of self
aware computer (or something, its not clear its really a computer).
Alot (but not all) of the science seems pretty much right, it looks
like they paid attention to what their science adviser said.  All
sorts of really strange things happen, but basically good guys vs.
bad guys trying to take over the Earth in one way or another.

                        Alan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #52
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 84 1208-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #52
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 31 Mar 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:
           Books - Brunner & Hubbard & Lem & Silverberg &
                   Stapledon & The Philadelphia Experiment,
           Films - High Speed Film (3 msgs),
           Television - The Tommorrow People

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 84 16:11:42-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: [mutilation] of THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER

It would be useful if publishers' names and edition dates were
mentioned.  In Canada we tend to see a mixture of US and British
editions.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: Tue 27 Mar 84 12:16:42-PST
From: Sam Hahn <Samuel@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Hubbard

Am I too obtuse to notice, or does the populace not recall that L.
Ron Hubbard is the main man behind the dianetics and scientology
crock?

This where one signs on with the religion for 5 billion years if one
can get "cleared", ie brainsucked, the ideal heaven for
scientologists.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 25 Mar 84 21:20:03-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Lem and Stapledon.

  The only book of Lem's that is as much fun as the Cyberiad is Star 
Diaries.  It follows the less preachy of Ijon Tichy's adventures.  I 
find two of his novels interesting, but the others rather turgid.  
They are The Futurological Congress, (available in paperback from Bard
[Avon's international/translation division]) which is about a 
convention goer who is present during a terrorist attack.  The 
terrorists use pharmaceutical weapons, and the rest of the story 
involves trying to figure out what is real and what isn't.  Chain of 
Chance is a detective story with an interesting twist (that can't be 
divulged).  The idea is similar to The Investigation, but the plot 
works much better.  It is, or was published in paperback by Jove 
books.


Joe

------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 84 00:46:18 est
Subject: More on Silverbob

Herein find a second plug for Dying Inside -- it is one of the most
sensitive and balanced books about telepaths I have ever seen.  By
balanced, I mean nicely between the two usual extremes:

    i)  Telepathy is really great stuff, and those who have it tend to
        be better humans in almost all ways than non-telepaths

    ii) Telepathy is terrible stuff, and those who have it are
        terrible-to-insane from having to confront the raw sewage
        that is man's thought.

Also find a VERY ENTHUSIASTIC plug for Book of Skulls, also
mentioned earlier in passing.  The four protagonists are well
characterized, and their mutual opinions and thought styles give the
book a feeling of well-crafted counterpoint (the book is written all
in first-person narratives which switch from the four protagonists).
The plot is tautly crafted, and although I want to avoid from
spoiling it, I will note that this is an excellent case of a book
where the fantastic or strange is kept so much in check that for
most, if not all of the book (no spoiler...) one has no more
confirmation of strangeness going on than a weird feeling on the
back of the neck.

I also recently read a reissue of Philip K. Dick's The Unteleported
Man.  It billed itself as the original version, minus 3 pps lost of
the manuscript (the first publication supposedly was cut, and with a
different ending).  If anyone has read both versions, please comment
on the contrast.  I enjoyed the version I read, but I must admit
those 3 pps were close enough to the end of the book so that they
added greatly to the confusion one generally finds at the end of
Dick's novels.
                       Dar icus, Dar nushi, Dar sud

                       Leslie

------------------------------

Date: Sun 25 Mar 84 21:20:03-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Lem and Stapledon.

Olaf Stapledon is particularly interesting historically.  He wrote in
England in the thirties and forties while the pulps were being 
published in America.  He could be called a father of science fiction.
His works are much more detailed, more scientifically plausible, and
less moralistic than Wells.  Sirius is about who is as intelligent as
a human and grows up as a member of the family.  Odd John is about a
super-human, John, who is a new species of mankind -- homo superior.
He contacts other extra-normals and founds a colony.  Last and First
Men is a history of the entire human race from first man (us) to
seventeeth man. Odd John and Sirius are together in one volume from
Dover as are Last and First Men and Star Maker.  This is truly first
class stuff.  The only difficulty one might have is that they are
written using a classic English style (ala James) as so the narrator
relates the story.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 84 17:45 MST
From: "Jerry Crow"@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment

In SFL, V9-21, Will Martin talks about a book called "The
Philadelphia Experiment".  I haven't read this book, but the
description sounds so much like another book that I am prompted to
ask if anyone else noted the similarity.

<<< Warning:  potential spoiler .... >>>

I refer to "Thin Air", by George Simpson and Neal Burger (Dell,
1978).  The central character of TA is one Nick Hammond, an
investigator for the intelligence arm of the Navy.  The book opens
with a past love of his asking asking to see him.  They meet, and
the subject turns out to be her husband.  He's having nightmares
about being on a boat which disappears.  He has distinct memories of
being at the Philadelphia Navy Yard during his naval service, but
his official naval record does not reflect that.

As a favor to his old love, Hammond agrees to check naval records.
The book unfolds from there as Hammond uncovers a WWII research
project to make things, particularly ships, invisible.  As things
get more complex, he ends up visiting a former member of the
project, a stereotyped brilliant scientist who now lives as a hermit
in the hills of New Mexico in order to escape from society, etc.
Turns out the project was a success, but it drove the participants
insane.  And, more importantly, the project resulted in the
teleportation of the ship, a fact which was regarded by most of the
investigators -- but not all as noted below -- as an undesirable
side effect.  The project, according to the official records, was
cancelled.  And the mess was covered up, as Hammond discovers.

Ah, but one particularly devious principal in the investigation
realizes that teleportation is an interesting goal in its own right,
with potential beyond invisibility.  Hmmm.....

So to the present and the project has been picked up by the, again,
stereotyped "Monolithic Mega Corporation", cloaked in secrecy, and
is being used for private gain and criminal activity, etc.  It is
devoted entirely to teleportation.

The book talks about Einstein, the Unified Field Theory, and the
plot has the "Thin Air" project being led, technically, by an Emil
Kurtnauer who allegedly continued down the path opened by the UFT.

I found this particular book to be a fairly good light read.  The
similarities are so striking that there must be some connection
between the two.  The plot of TA is considerably more detailed than
I have described here, but the general flow is essentially identical
to tPE.

BTW:  I see that tPE is due out as a movie this fall.

Anyone know anything more about these two books and/or a potential
relationship between them?

/Jerry
JCrow%PCO-MULTICS at CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 11:02:54 PST (Tuesday)
From: LFeinberg.es@PARC-GW.ARPA
Subject: Re: high spped film

"They said that the more you increase the number of frames per
second the more reaction and emotion the audience feels."

Begin Flame Here.

What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this?  When will people realize
that any kind of technical resource will not get you reaction and
emotion from anyone?  These are simply not replacements for high
quality scripting, acting, and directing.  Witness the emotional
connections that come the great silent films -- with less frames per
second and terrible film.  Black-and-white, too.

Even if you are just talking about sheer visual impact, it is not
the technical quality of the photographic process which makes the
difference.  Again, look at the silents to see this.... The the
creation of the robot in Fritz Lang's Metropolis, the carriage
bumping down the steps in Sergei Eisenstein's Potempkin, the
stirring march of the French army at the end of Abel Glance's
"Napoleon".

Your gimmicks may be fine, and Lucas and Speilberg may be the right
sort to use them.  But don't confuse that with great film-making.
The great film-makers need a lot less to get their "reaction and
emotion".

End Flame Here.

Lawrence <LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Mar 84 11:37 EST
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: high-speed film

I read somewhere that it was Douglas Trumbull who has been
experimenting with high-speed film.  I also seem to recall that he
was putting money into some special theaters with extra-wide screens
to show movies made with such techniques.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 28 March 1984, 13:59-PST
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman at SCH-Gila>
Subject: Showscan and Brock/Trumbull
Cc: mike at RAND-UNIX

The Showscan process was originally developed by Doug Trumbull as
part of his Future General partnership with Paramount Pictures.  The
process was developed both as a film format (ie, major motion
pictures) and as an amusement park format (as in Disneyland and its
natural descendants, the pizza parlour).  Trumbull's deal with
Paramount included development of the technology and of at least one
motion picture.  One test film was produced.  Called "Night of the
Dreams" it was the lamest of the three script ideas submitted to
Paramount, it was the one Paramount chose, of course, it lasts 15
minutes, is a weak Twilight-zone-like episode and it proves the
technology very well.  You may not want to do a feature film with
this format but you are convinced that it makes an impact an order
of magnitude greater than 70mm, Imax, Omnimax, etc.

As with any new idea Paramount develops, they ultimately chose to
choose nothing and do nothing and sit on it a while and then think
about it and then do nothing.  So it was with Showscan and with the
motion picture that was developed called Brainstorm.  So Trumbull
went elsewhere to try and finance Showscan, ultimately ending up
with the non-Showscan feature that became Brainstorm, financed by
MGM.

Two asides.  First, even though Brainstorm didnt use the Showscan
process it was the first effects feature to use actual 70mm footage
for the effects instead of 35mm footage blown up to 70mm.
Lucasfilm, for example, shoots their effects in a widescreen format,
Vistavision, which is 8-perf 35 mm and then transfer it down to
4-perf 35mm for printing with live action which was shot in
Panavision.  The final print is then blown up to 70mm widescreen for
release.  Brainstorm, on the other hand, kept the effects footage at
70mm, thus avoiding one entire generation loss of resolution plus
the effects of printing down and then printing back up again, a
procedure that always results in loss of detail and clarity and
color.  This explains why some of the sequences in Brainstorm have
the extroardinary clarity that they do.  This may not help the movie
much (reviews were mixed, as they say) but I was pleased.  As an
effects guy who has always worked in 35mm and then transferred to
(blech) video, I've always wanted to see 70mm, really 70mm, and not
the 35mm, transferred twice, and then blown up to 70mm, that we are
used to seeing.  I thought it looked great.  The movie certainly
answered the often asked question: "Is there special effects after
death?"

Second, Showscan is a process that involves more than the often
remarked-upon 60 fps.  It also includes a digital sound system as
well as special speaker delivery.  My suspicion is that any good
sound system would do here but I think that Trumbull's point is that
it is necessary to have that sound system, the usual crummy movie
sound wont do.  Also, because the film moves so much faster in
Showscan, they can pump more light energy through it, getting a
picture twice as bright on a specially shaped screen.  This also
enhances the quality of the imagery.

After many years of showing Showscan to potential investors,
Trumbull finally signed a deal with a Pizza Parlour Entrepreneur
named Brock.  The idea was to make 100's of pizza parlours
nationwide, each equipped with a Showscan theatre.  Trumbull was
commissioned to make a few short films.  The first was a dunebuggy,
surfnut 20min film that is supposed to be "just awful".  The second
is a film called "New Magic" which had at least one good magician
that I know of, Ricky Jay, of LA, as advisor.  I haven't seen that
film either, but reviews are mixed, as they say.  The third film was
to be a graphics effects film and... it's about time!  If there is
one thing that Trumbull does well it is graphics: see for reference
the slitscan scenes in 2001, the final sequences of Close Encounters
and the graphics multiplaning stars in the Showscan demo film.  The
third test film never got made, so far as I have heard.

The final word is that they (Trumbull) are waiting on the investor
(Brock) to see if they can get financing for the Pizza Parlour
upgrade.  They are testing the films in Dallas and Washington, DC
now.  If the financing comes through then Trumbull will get to make
7 short films in a hurry.  That could be very exciting because at
least one of them could be an abstract imagery film.  They hope to
know whether they can go ahead very soon, and I'll let Sf-lovers
know if they get the goahead.

Michael Wahrman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Mar 84 17:15:00 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Tomorrow People

Well, I have cable and can't help watching it sometimes, so I catch
"The Tomorrow People" fairly often.  The premise is basically this:

The Galaxy is populated by hundreds of races; some are telepathic,
some are not.  The telepaths are always mutations from a
non-telepathic base species.  These are developing on Earth, where
they are called (for no readily descernable reason) "Tomorrow
People."  The Galactic Federation goes around finding these people
and contacting them; they become ambassadors for the planet, which
is shielded from outside contact until the telepaths become
dominant.  It turns out that the telepaths are mentally incapable of
violence, so they're safe to let out into Galactic society.

The telepaths also have limited abilities for TK, remote viewing,
and teleportation, called "jaunting" (cf Bester's STARS MY
DESTINATION).  Jaunting range is much enhanced (to interstellar
distances, even) by machine amplification.

The show itself follows the adventures of a group of teenagers/young
adults who have been given a sentient biological computer by the
Galactic Federation.  They keep the Earth safe from invasion by
hostile non-telepathic ETs, are on the run from Earth governments,
who want to use their power for war, etc.  Occasionally they go to
other planets to help out pockets of Tomorrow People there.

All in all, it's not a bad show.  The special effects are mediocre
video stuff, and the plots range from pretty intelligent to pretty
bad.  But there's a fair amount of thought in the background
civilizations and the premise in general.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-Mar  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #53
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Mar 84 1230-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 31 Mar 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:
     Books - Brin & Kornbluth & Lem & Varley & Wolfe (2 msgs),
     Films - Russian Films & 2010 & Roadside Picnic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 20:23:30-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Practice Effect **teensie spoile - (nf)

+--------------------
| (P.S.  After being so negative, I can't wait for "Gorilla" --
|   The quality of books in the sequence "Practice Effect",
|   "Sundiver", "Startide Rising" is analogous to the gamma
|   function!)
+--------------------

>>  Hmm... maybe there IS sometime to the "Practice Effect" ;-}

No, he specifically mentioned that the Practice Effect did not work
on animate matter.  Nice try....

P.S.  He has an science article in the May 1984 *Analog*, an issue
that will readers of this net will not so forget... (see my next
article).

ave discordia                   going bump in the night ...
bruce giles

decvax!ucf-cs!giles             university of central florida
giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay         orlando, florida 32816

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 84 23:33:34-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm
From: -cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Title Request

        Sorry about posting this, but I don't trust sending mail to
funny-looking addresses...

The story about the reporter Flannery on the planet Frostbite is
"Make Mine Mars", by Cyril Kornbluth.  To find it, you will probably
have to go to a library or used book store and look for collections
of his stories.  It's worth the trouble, though, if only for the
song at the beginning:

        X is for the ecstasy she gave me,
        S is for her scales of ivoree
        ...
        Put it all together, it spells XS?????

(I don't remember all of it)

Jim Janney
{parsec,ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax!unm-cvax!janney
{purdue,lbl-csam,cmcl2,csu-cs}!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney

------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 84 03:19:51 est
Subject: In defense of S. Lem

     Some of you who have not been turned of of Lem by way of
Solaris may wish to really give him a chance.  I have just recently
become interested in Lem, and I have found him to have an extremely
nice turn of phrase and an apparent love for words, which shines
through even when hindered by translation.  Following, a short
run-down of some Lem goodies:

The Cyberiad: a set of fables about a mechanized culture.  I read
     the Avon edition (now out of print, spottily available in used
     book stores) and the translation seems excellent (since I don't
     know how to read the original, this means the word flow is
     beautiful)

Tales of Pirx the Pilot: amusing shorts tracing cadet Pirx's life
     as a pilot.  There is a sequel to this but I haven't read it.

Solaris: Our red-letter novel.  I liked it, but the accusations
     leveled about its obscurity and mysticism are pretty accurate.
     The imagery and ideas are definitely weird, but it is still
     worth reading.

Return from the Stars: a novel about Future Shock.  I think the
     edition I read suffered in translation -- either that or the
     prose can get pretty stultifying.

Also, I hear "A Perfect Vaccum" is a must-buy.  However, the HBJ
paper I have seen is a bit high priced for my current
student-impoverished budget.  A.P.V. is a bunch of book reviews of
nonexistent books.

Leslie

All hail the Lords of Asgard  (these Gods brought to you
through the intervention of MMILLER)

------------------------------

Date: 28 March 1984 1945-pst
From: Jerry Bakin    <Bakin @ HI-MULTICS>
Subject: "Press Enter []" by John Varley

The latest "Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine" (May '84) has a
short story by John Varley called "Press Enter[]" This is a very
reasonable account of a software hacker (who gives himself the name
Kluge) who over a 30 year period has erased himself from the world.
Varley admits not anyone can do this, this hacker was in the
business since the fifties, and installed most of the systems
involved. (Setting up Trojan Horses, or acquiring knowledge of their
weaknesses.)

The story is not about Kluge however, it is about Kluge's neighbor
and a Vietnamese woman from CALTECH.

Kluge has committed suicide, and left everything to the neighbor.
The suicide note is written as a computer program, and explains that
the fifty gallon drum of drugs in the bedroom was for his personal
use, not for retail.  LAPD isn't impressed, and fearing murder and
not suicide, retains the woman to make what she can out of his
system.

The dialogue is handled well, with the exception that the woman
obviously had a bad encounter with the MIT hackers dictionary.
Varley uses this as a device to impress the reader with how much the
woman must know about computers, but that's alright, because the
jargon is used in the proper places, and usually is a method the
woman uses to snow the cops or FBI.

Its a fairly well written story, not hard-sf, but plausible, and
makes proper use of the adjective brain-damaged.

My one concern is with the jargon: I haven't wandered around CALTECH
much, do techies really use 95% of the hackers dictionary in every
breadth?  For that matter do the people at MIT?

Jerry.

P.S. The intro mentions that Millenium will soon be a major motion
     picture.  Does anyone know anything more about this?  Will
     Robert Redford be the FAA investigator?  Who will play Louise?
     BC?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 84 0:11:56-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!decwrl!lipman @ Ucb-Vax
From: akov68::boyajian
Subject: Wolfe Stuffe

dartvax!karl:

        THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO is a collection from Zeising Brothers
(the publishers of CASTLE OF THE OTTER). The contents are: "The
Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories", "The Death of Doctor
Island", and "The Doctor of Death Island". Also included, embedded
in the introduction, is a new short-short story, "Death of the
Island Doctor". Since the three novellas are all (I believe) con-
tained in the Pocket Books collection, THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH
AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES [*sic*], this is really more of
a "collector's" book than anything else. Since the SF Book Club did
an edition of OTTER, I suspect that they will do one of ARCHIPELAGO,
too.
        You might want to know, though, that N.E.S.F.A. (The New
England S. F.  Association -- the putters on of Boskone) has
published another Wolfe collection commemorating Wolfe's
guest-of-honorship at this year's Boskone. It's called PLAN[e]T
ENGINERING (a joke; Wolfe used to edit a trade journal called PLANT
ENGINEERING) and is a collection of old (some obscure) and new
material.

        Since your message was apparently cut off (at least on my
end), I can't answer any other questions you might have had.

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 84 23:43:13-PST (Thu)
From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Islands beyond Doctors and Deaths. - (nf)

>    I have seen in the latest Books in Print that Gene Wolfe has
> yet another new ( ? ) book out, The Wolfe Archipelago. Does anyone
> happen to know what is in it? To name a few of the choices, old
> short stories, new short stories, a novel, more background on
> Urth...

        The "Wolfe Archipelago" is a collection of three short
        stories:
          "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories"
          "The Death of Doctor Island"
          "The Doctor of Death Island"
as an added bonus, if you read the intro, you will find another
story:
          "Death of the Island Doctor"

>    Also, I noticed in a short story index today that Wolfe has had
> numerous stories published in anthologies edited by someone named
> R.  Elwood. ( E.g., Dystopian Visions, Showcase, Tomorrow's
> Alternatives, and with Virginia Kidd, Saving World. [or maybe
> Saving Word?] ) Who is R. Elwood?

        R. Elwood is Roger Elwood, who was producing anthologies
seemingly every week during the early and middle 70's. I haven't
heard much from him recently, but that might not mean anything...

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 28 March 1984, 12:59-PST
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman at SCH-Gila>
Subject: Weighing Russian Films, a method for criticism

I have a theory that the Russian film community evaluates cinema in
terms of Kilograms.  One Russian intellectual might meet another on
the street and ask: "Say, comrade, have you seen that new Tarkovsky
film?  How much does it weigh?"  His friend says: "Yes, Tarkovsky is
a true friend of socialism.  His film must weigh 500 kilos at least!
Maybe more!  It runs for over five hours!!"  "Heavy!!" says the
first intellectual, "it must be a very good film indeed!"

Indeed it must be a very good film if it weighs that much.

I saw 'Solaris' when it premiered in L.A. many years ago, before a
nationwide release.  It was a very heavy film.  I didnt see the puny
2.5 hour nothing-ness that some people saw in the nationwide
release.  And I didnt see the lightweight trivial superficial 3.5
hour trifle that showed around LA for a while after the premier.
NO!  I saw the original Tarkovsky masterpiece, a full 4.5 hours of
gravity-loving cinema.

Boring, minor, simple.  A film that is the russian equivalent of a
TV drama, substituting gross film footage for idea as in America we
might substitute another car chase for idea.  Some people would say
that ponderous footage that should have been left on the cutting
room floor is better than the American fetish for mindless action,
and this may be true, but I think that the car chase has at least
the advantage of finishing sooner.

In the case of Solaris, I think it should have been cut into a slow
moving 90 minute foreign film.  One of the hardest things for a film
maker to do is to get out footage that doesn't contribute to the
story.  I believe that this is true for French films as much as
American films, Japanese films, British films, etc.  I believe that
it is true for filmmaking in general.  But the russians, apparently,
in cinema as in fiction, like their entertainment bulky.

------------------------------

Date: 28 March 1984 1913-pst
From: Jerry Bakin    <Bakin @ HI-MULTICS>
Subject: 2010 and Soviet Dissidents

The LA times for 27 April had an article pointing out that the last
names of the seven cosmonauts in 2010 correspond to well known
Soviet dissidents.  The interest arises since the magazine
Tekhnika-Molodyozhi (Technology Youth) is serializing the novel, and
the names have slipped past the Soviet Censors.

The article by Robert Gillette can be found in Part I, page 7 but I
will paraphrase:

 Jerry.

  MOSCOW -- Soviet dissidents, who rarely find much to laugh about
 are enjoying a chuckle these days over what they presume to be a
 subtle practical joke played on government censors by Arthur C.
 Clarke.

  The apparent joke -- " a small but elegant Trojan horse," as one
 dissident describes it -- is contained in 2010: Odyssey Two.

  Russians are among the world's most avid science fiction fans.
 With this in mind, a popular Soviet Science magazine began
 serializing the sequel, and apparently plans to continue publishing
 a condensed Russian-language version for several months.

  What astute Soviet Readers find so amusing, and what censors have
 apparently overlooked is not the book's daring suggestion of
 US-Soviet cooperation, but the particular names Clarke has given to
 the Soviet cosmonauts on the expedition.

  The last names of the cosmonauts correspond to those of well-known
 living Soviet dissidents.  six of the seven are currently serving
 sentences in labor camps or internal exile for their human-rights
 activities.  Under strict censorship regulations, they are rarely
 mentioned in the state controlled Soviet press, and then only as
 objects of official vilification.

  The namesakes appear to be:

 Viktor Brailovsky, a computer scientist and a leading Jewish
 activist.

 Ivan Kovalev, an engineer and a founder of the Helsinki Group.

 Anatoly Marchenko, a 46 year old laborer who has served 18 years in
                      the camps for political offenses.

 Yuri Orlov, Physicist, Jewish activist and Helsinki Group founder.

 Mykola Rudenko, Helsinki Group founder.

 Gleb Rakunin, a Russian Orthodox Priest.

 Andrei Sakharov, physicist and Nobel Laureate.

  In a special introduction to the Soviet version, Clarke fondly
 recalls his friendship with Soviet Cosmonaut Alexi Leonov and
 expresses his hope his book will encourage "friendship among
 peoples," a stock Soviet phrase.

 However, in the Western edition, the book is dedicated to Leonov
 and dissident physicist Andrei D. Sakharov -- "scientist, Nobel
 Laureate, humanist."

  While the names of the cosmonauts may be concidence, dissident
 Muscvites are skeptical.  Several of the names like Brailovsky and
 Yakunin are far from common.  In any case, as one of Clarke's
 characters obsereves, "Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence,
 three times is a conspiracy."

  All of which, to some puzzled readers, makes seven very hard to
 explain.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 8:58:29-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Movie query: Stalker, Solaris - (nf)

 "Roadside Picnic" is NOT about aliens picnicing on Earth, it is
about the effects of The Zone on the inhabitants of the area. One
character, a scientist, likens the Zone to an alien picnic area.
What would the remains of a human picnic site look like to a
less advanced race than ours? It is a superb book, even though the
translation from Russian leaves something to be desired at times.

David C. Kovar
            USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell}!dartvax!davidk
            ARPA:       davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay
            CSNET:      davidk@dartmouth

            U.S. Snail  HB 3140
                        Dartmouth College
                        Hanover NH
                        03755

 "The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #54
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 84 1324-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #54
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:
                Books - Chalker/Foster Book Reviews,
                Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars (6 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - SF Cons List & Parsecs & FTL (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 84 16:46:29-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Chalker/Foster review and spoilers

     Well, I've done it again, scooped up a couple of SF paperbacks
     without checking the back page for (Part II of the Foo the
     Barbarian Saga will be published sometime in 1995).  It seems
     they've stopped noting the fact that the book is part of a
     series on the cover.  It seems that most readers have probably
     caught onto the fact that most N-part series are hastily
     written piles of dragon spew with no valid reason for existence
     including the possession of entertainment value.

     The books I'm referring to are Spell Singer (Alan Dean Foster)
     whose sequel is Hour of the Gate, and The River of the Dancing
     Gods by Jack Chalker.  Well I should have been forewarned, both
     of these authors are hacks from way back but trusting in
     strange and none too reliable gods, I bought them anyways.

     Spell Singer was a mostly harmless, slightly too cute,
     alternate universe story about a drugged out college student
     who gets goniffed into a magic using Universe in order to save
     it from some unknown but terrible threat.  It turns out that
     the kid's a natural (naturally) with a talent for invoking
     spells through music.  (Does this sound familiar or does this
     sound familiar?).  Well, I'd be happier if the kid had to sweat
     some for his magic powers, and the plot is sort of threadbare,
     but handled in the right way this could work.  Unfortunately,
     A. Dean Foster ain't got no style, and not a heck of a lot of
     creativity either.  Part 1 of Spell Singer peters out (suddenly
     and without much happening) and then the Hour of the Gate turns
     *really* bad.  We're talking cliches here, we're talking the
     cavalry coming over the hill, we're talking the final battle
     scene with the Wizard, the Dark Forces, the secret weapon which
     is just after all nothing so very terrible, we're talking the
     hero saving the day in a last minute display of technicolor
     magic virtuosity, we're talking extremely dull predictable
     ending.  Foo.

     Then I ran across Chalker's River of the Dancing Gods.  I once
     had hope for Chalker.  The Well World was creative and
     original, marred only by a writing style second only to Piers
     Anthony in the lack of style and imagery and the possession of
     characters who left splinters on your brains (Is this where we
     got Splinter of the Mind's Eye?).  So let's see if Chalker has
     improved....He has not.  Dancing Gods reads like the sketch of
     a work, the plot is there, the characters are there, they move
     to the conclusion of the book in an undeviating line, and it's
     all shallow as hell. If Chalker spent more than two months
     writing this opus, I'd be shocked.  And what's really bad is
     that Chalker waits till the last line with his little joke,
     which is that he intends to inflict more of this Finagle-cursed
     dreck on the unwitting populace.

     So consider yourself warned.  This stuff is the science fiction
     equivalent of Top 40 music.  It's got as much substance to it
     as Coca Cola.  Avoid it.

     dann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27-MAR-1984 23:57 EST
From: Ronald A. Jarrell <TSDTEST%VPIVAX3.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Star Trek III - More hints

From Enterprise Incidents:  April 1984
Used without permission.


(deleted)

        Enterprise Incidents is published by New Media Publishing
Inc at monthly intervals.]

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 84 22:01:05 EST
From: Marla <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek on videotape

        Actually, this could turn out to be an interesting venture,
if the following could happen:

        First, get 20 or 40 interested people to form a group.  At
50 cents or 1 dollar each, they could see the entire uncut series
for $40/$80 (I'm talking having them all gather in one place to view
it, or circulating the tape between VCR owners).  Second, if it is
possible to select which episode you would like to get next, then,
by having 2 or 3 people subscribe for a large group, you could see
the whole series in much less than 6 years.

        Of course, I suppose Paramount would undertake elaborate
protection schemes for the tapes/disks, otherwise the underground
pirated version of the episodes would quickly put them out of
business....

Marla  [Selinger@Ru-Blue]

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 84 5:31:39-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!edb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Death Star and Endor

[]

I have begun to wonder why, if the new death star was "fully
operational", did it need a ground-based shield at all?  Isn't that
rather unusual?

Emily Brooks    ...ihnp4!akgua!edb

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 84 5:31:46-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??

  After watching Star Wars last night on T.V., I got to wondering if
there was any editing.... I think I spotted two places but I'm not
quite sure....

1) In the Rebel base, doesn't Luke meet Biggs before they get to the
Death Star?

2) Wasn't Princess Leia's awarding a medal to Chewie after the Death
Star was blown up ommitted?

  Maybe my memory is faulty, but I seem to remember seeing both of
those scenes at the theater.  Can anyone tell me if I am
hallucinating or not???

Ken Varnum
 (..decvax!dartvax!kenv)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 84 9:29:25-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??

I was unable to discover anything that was different in the TV
Version.  Chewie did not get a medal and Luke didn't meet Biggs
(although I think both of these were done in the novel and Luke did
meet Biggs in the National Public Radio adaption).

                Mark L. Starner
                Pennsylvania State University
                {allegra, burdvax, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!starner

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 22:03:38-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star and Endor

re: "Why did the 'fully operational' Death Star need a ground-based
shield?"

All part of the ruse.  It was an Empire double-agent who sold the
secret code to the rebels, as well as the disinformation that the
Death Star would not be operational when they wanted to attack.

As Admiral Ackbar (?) said, "It's a trap!"
                                                -- Allan Pratt

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 13:45:02-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Wars Trivia Answers - Apology

My apologies for not posting the answers to the Star Wars trivia
quiz I promised.  Shortly after I posted the origional quiz,
facilities decided to move our group.  We finally got phones and
terminals so now I can post the answers.  Unfortunately, I left them
at home today, so I will have to bring them in tomorrow.

Marla S. Baer
ssc-vax!marla

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 84 14:28:58-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm
From: -cvax!nmtvax!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star and Endor

If the Death Stars was not protected by the shield the good guys
would have known it was operational.  The Emperor wanted to trap
them, and keeping the shield up was jut another little detail to
make sure they were fooled.  Besides, they didn't seem in a hurry to
go anywhere, why go off chasing the rebels when you can just sit and
wait for them to show up, and the shield was no more than a pain in
the neck. It didn't prevent the Death Star from operating normally.

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 84 7:30:09-PST (Tue)
To: SF-Lovers @ Rutgers
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Ewok Joke

Q:  How did Ewoks get their names?

A:  It's the sound they make when they fall out of trees.

          ^^^^^^^^  E
         ()()()()() E
         ()()()()() E
            ####    E
            ####    E
            ####    E
            ####   \\wok//

                                -The Parker Hobbit
                                 a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri

UUCP:   {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit
                decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit
ARPA & CSNET:   hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay
Physical:       Department of Computer Science
                226 Bell Hall
                SUNY Center at Buffalo
                Amherst, NY  14226

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1984 2049-PST
From: Zellich@OFFICE-3.ARPA (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons list updated (note change of host for file)

SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for
FTP.  SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.

CONS.TXT is currently 1131 lines (or 54,765 characters).  Please try
to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if
possible, as the system is usually heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich
[Note that the file has been moved from OFFICE-3 to SRI-NIC; future
messages about list-address changes, etc., directed to me should be
sent to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC instead of ZELLICH@OFFICE-3.]

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 12:42:08-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!unc!rentsch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf)

In times when space warp travel is common, getting into and out of
warp quickly might make a HUGE difference in terms of how long the
trip takes, because the trip is much shorter.  Seen in this light,
saying that something was done in "under 17 parsecs" makes a lot of
sense, no?

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 1984 09:42:36-EST
From: Donald.Schmitz at CMU-RI-ARM
Subject: Re:Re:FTL

Re the post by Michael Cooley in which he gives the example of two
photons approaching each other and claims the distance between them
shrinks at speed 2c.  This seems like an example used to explain
relativity that I've read somewhere before, and the results are not
exactly what are expected, as what happens depends on the point of
view. If viewed from a coordinate system attached to either photon,
the other appears to be approaching at a speed just under c.  If
viewed from a coordinate system attached to say the point of
collision of the two photons, the distance between the two is
shrinking at speed 2c, however this does not imply that any physical
object or information is traveling at speed greater than c.

If I've gotten any of the details wrong here (I'm working completely
from memory and can remember the text) please let me know.  Also,
regarding the question of one telepath traveling at relativistic
speeds compared to the other, Heinlein wrote a story based on just
such a premise many years back (one of his juvenile books I read in
about 8th grade), with exactly what was described happening.  The
telepaths, taken along on the first star trip for communication, had
to concentrate on one idea for hours so that their earth bound
receptors could catch what they were sending, and had to use
hypnosis to pay attention to the return transmission long enough to
understand it (although transmission time was instantaneous).

Don

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 84 2:43:08-PST (Fri)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sure we can!

>>  If we can discuss the likes of Deryni, Darkover, Terry Brooks,
>>  and Tolkien in SF-Lovers, we can damned well discuss speculative
>>  physics relating to space travel.

        I should point out that there is one difference between
    "speculative physics relating to space travel", and "Deryni,
    Darkover, Terry Brooks, and Tolkien".  And that is this: In all
    cases, the books that you have mentioned are internally
    self-consistant (i.e. there is no place where you can say "This
    part of the novel disagrees with this part").

        That is not true with "FTL" drives.

        What most authors misunderstand about Einstein's theory
    of relativity is that it is not the ACT of moving through space
    that "makes time go slower", but rather that space and time are
    two components of the same thing.  "Going through Hyperspace"
    would do absolutely nothing, because the very ACT of ARRIVING at
    a location before light would (given any frame of refrence), is
    the very ACT of going backwards through time.

        Thus, though is is possible for "Psychism" to exist,
    even "magic" (as long as it is in another universe), FTL cannot.
    This fact will not go away.  Period.  You might as well write
    1000 novels based on Perpetual Motion machines, and have the
    same degree of truth in them as Star Wars, Star Trek, etc, etc,
    etc.

    Steven  Maurer

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 84 6:39:07-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sure we can!

   Although you may be correct in that faster than light travel is
not possible, you seem to be rather fanatically set against any
other possibility. Einstein would probably admit that Special
Relativity is not the be-all and end-all of the universe. And if you
think all the vagaries, quirks, and bizarre happenstances of time
have been ironed out, read Timescape, by Gregory Benford.

{decvax,cornell}!dartvax!karl    karl@dartmouth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #55
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Apr 84 1314-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
    Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Author Request &
            Story request & Varley (2 msgs),
    Films - High Speed Film (4 msgs),
    Miscellaneous - FTL & Omni & Dr. Manfred Clynes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 7:20:28-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxj!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Practice Effect

Well, I liked it! I read page 1 last night, and page-the-last about
three hours later.  It's not headed for the Pulitzer, but it's good
reading (and I don't know about you, but that's what I'm here for).
Certainly better than the Alan Dean Foster drivel I was mainlining
(just to get my fix until something good came along, you
understand). Counteracting the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is really
no more unbelievable than Murphy's hyper-extension of the same
law...and Brin was realistic to the extent of giving his protagonist
a concussion after being bopped on the head..

Has anyone read Niven's new book, The Integral Tree? Is it worth
reading?

glenn kapetansky

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 1984 1101 PST
From: John McCluskey <MCCLUSKEY@JPL-VLSI>
Subject: The Practice Effect

I just finished reading "The Practice Effect" this weekend.  It is
not bad, but I nearly split a gut laughing when the author
introduces, "The plain of Darb" (snicker), "the Ruddick River"
(snort), "Count R'krett" (giggle), and best of all, "Count Feif-dei"
(Har har har har har har) Strangely, I can't explain why I found
this funny....

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  1 Apr 1984 12:52:52-PST
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@purdue-merlin.ARPA  (Do not adjust your
From: set...)
To: sfnet%decwrl.ARPA@purdue-merlin.ARPA
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

Yes, the L. Ron Hubbard of "Battlefield Earth" is the same *deleted*
who started dianetics and scientology.  Before he turned into a
*deleted* he was a fairly well known SF author, even roomed with
Heinlein for a while.  The L. stands for Lafayette.  If you will
take a close look at Hubbard's picture and compare it with
Heinlein's description of Lazarus Long, you will see a remarkable
similarity...

Hubbard was quoted, once, long before he started the scientology
thing, as saying (at an SF convention, I believe), "If you want to
get rich, start a religion."  Clearly, he is a very clever
*deleted*!

Or perhaps I should say "WAS a very clever..."  There is serious
ques- tion as to whether Hubbard still lives.  The scientology
*deleted*s maintain that he does, but that may be an elaborate
fiction - they also have a mailbox in each of their "churches" into
which the faithful can put "letters to Ron" - the supposition is
that Hubbard himself reads and answers each one...  Ah, me, my back
aches!

Cheers,

Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 20:01:53-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

The same. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a lot of pulp SF before he invented
Scientology. And whether or not he really said it, "If you want to
make a lot of money, start a religion," is atttributed to him.  He
also suckered his friend, A. E. Van Vogt, into Scientology.
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 31 March 1984 18:39-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: here's the title, who's the author?

I'd like to know who are the authors of these books:

1.  Roadside Picnic  (mentioned recently in SF-L)

2.  The "Pelbar" series

    The Breaking of Northwall
    The Ends of the Circle
    The Dome in the Forest
    The Fall of the Shell
    An Ambush of Shadows

3.  The Syndic

Thank you.
-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 84 18:10:00 PST (Saturday)
Subject: Short story query
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@Xerox.ARPA>

I vaguely recall a short story I'd like to find again. The main
character is a man who finds the pattern of stop lights in a city.
He uses it to drive across town without ever having to stop. He
demonstrates this new-found knowledge to his wife, who is
unimpressed.  Eventually he meets a woman who does appreciate this
skill of his. They also share a kind of telepathic and telekinetic
ability. Somehow they come to be in a skyscraper under construction,
with the police chasing them (for some reason). There is an
accident, and she falls to her death. Blaming himself, he commits
suicide.

Sounds pretty wierd, huh? I think that's because of how little of it
I recall. It did have a nice mood and was well written, I think.
Anyone recognize it?

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 31 March 1984 16:48-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: "Press Enter []" by John Varley
To: Bakin @ HI-MULTICS

You might be amused to note that every major character in this
novella is named after a computer.  Every one.  Some are disguised,
though.

-- Steve

P.S.  SOME people (not everyone, but some) DO use 95% of the Hacker's
      Dictionary in every sentence they speak.  Believe it.
$$

------------------------------

Date: 31 March 1984 18:08-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: "Press Enter []" by John Varley
To: Bakin.SSID @ HI-MULTICS

I should amend my previous note.  Two characters are named "Kluge"
and "Foo".  These are not QUITE names of computers, but they are
close.

Even the first names are used.  Did you notice "Hal", "Lisa", and
even "Victor"?

-- Steve

------------------------------

Subject: Showscan
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 84 01:13:49 EST
From: Jeffrey Grossman <Grossman@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Wahrman's entry on high spped (sic) film

    If Showscan is as much of an eyepopper as everybody says, then
Trumbull should get in contact with Mike "Wizard of Speed and Time"
Jittlov.  Now THAT would be a team to make shorts!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 11:50:32-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!jay @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: high-speed film

Trumbull is indeed sporting his a new high speed film process.  He
calls it SHOWSCAN.  The first feature, New Magic is playing around
the country at (get this) a chain of pizza parlors (Show Biz Pizza,
to be exact).  The film is about 20 minutes in length and unveils
the possibilities of the new technology.  This would have been a
great way to have filmed Brainstorm.  The film is shot at 60 frames
per second and in true 70mm.  It is not a 35mm scope print blown up
like you get a your favorite movie theater.  There are speakers
everywhere and when they don't blast you away by turning the volume
up to high, it is a wonderful audio/visual experience.  The theater,
btw, seats about 50 and there are no bad seats.  The project is no
more than 30 feet from the screen, 70mm at that distance would
almost be good enough.  For those of you who have experienced IMAX
at the Smithsonian, the World's Fair, or some other illustrious
site, this is at least as good, and probably better.  Trumbull is
supposedly going to come out with a film every few months (short
ones, about 20 minutes each) and is now in the process of trying to
convince theaters phase in this equipment.  Whether or not he'll
succeed is anybody's guess.

-- Jay Elvove ..!seismo!umcp-cs!jay

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 84 11:32:41 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: high speed film

Counter-flame:

"What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this?  When will people realize
that any kind of technical resource will not get you reaction and
emotion from anyone?  These are simply not replacements for high
quality scripting, acting, and directing.  "

I think that you have misinterpreted the sense of the original
statement that more frames per second gives heightened emotional
responses from an audience.  What seemed to me to be the intent is
that the same scene, shot in the same way, by the same people, will
look better with more frames per second.  No one claimed that this
was going to turn George Lucas into Eisenstein.  (A few misguided
souls may think that he already is, but that's another argument.)

There is a school of criticism that seems to believe that directors
from earlier periods worked under technical restrictions to preserve
the purity of their art, rather than because that was all they had.
These critics implicitly state that the giants of the past would
still use nitrate film, hand-cranked cameras, black and white rather
than color, and silent rather than sound.  The truth is that most
filmmakers embrace new technologies, once they have been perfected
and are economically feasible.  Even Chaplin eventually went to
sound.

New technologies usually do not make a filmmaker any better.  They
frequently do make his films better, because they allow him to more
perfectly transfer his vision to the screen.  Eisenstein probably
would have killed to have the effects high-speed film are reputed to
give.  (Well, he would have killed a capitalist, at least.)

By the way, the quality of silent film stock isn't nearly as bad as
the common opinion would have it.  Mint fresh 35mm silent prints are
really beautiful.  There just aren't very many of them around,
because of the neglect of the studios, the volatile nature of
nitrate film, and the fact that they are over 50 years old.  The
original audiences of films like "Potemkin" saw much better images
than we see in them today.

flame off
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 84 11:55:12-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sure we can!

        The problem with FTL and special relativity is NOT that the
speed of C is an "illegal" one for anything with mass or that it is
mathematically impossible to go continuously from STL to FTL.  Both
are true under special relativity, but there are always loopholes,
one of the most popular being hyperspace.
        The real problem is that FTL is equivalent to time travel
into the past.  This equivalence is derivable from STL Lorentz
transformations which have been amply verified many times over.
Thus, FTL and time travel share the same set of paradoxes.  My own
favorite to the Grandfather Paradox of time travel (back 50 yr.,
kill Gramps, you never born, you didn't kill....)  is that NOTHING
is certain, so by attempting to set up a paradox, you FORCE
something unlikely to happen.  As Niven puts it, "Try to save Jesus
with a submachine gun, and the gun will POSITIVELY jam."  In other
words, time machines (and thus hyperdrives) are finite improbability
generators in the sense of Hitchhiker.  I once wrote an article for
a fanzine called "Through a Black Hole and Into the Past on an FTL
Ship with the Infinite Improbability Drive".  It had section
headings such as '"Don't Write That Article!", Said the Man who
Looked a lot Like Me...".
        Enough maundering!
                {BTL}!charm!mam

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 84 7:03:49-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!keves @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: omni magazine

news originating in san diego has not been reaching the outside
world for about six weeks now, so i am reposting this article. sorry
if you have seen it before.

are you getting fed up with the way omni is mailing out their
magazines now? i don't like getting my magazine with a mangled cover
or no insides, etc... i suggest to everyone who is in my frame of
mind to write to omni and tell them your displeasure. or if you
prefer, you could send a letter to me and i will have it printed on
a nice laser printer and mailed on to omni.

                        thanks

                "Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand
Name:     Brian Keves
Usenet:   ...!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!keves
          ...!sdcsvax!sdcattb!za62
Decnet:  ...!sdcsvax!sdccs2!za62#rv1
         ...!sdcsvax!sdccs2!zz104bk
USnail:   UCSD Computer Center
          C-010
          La Jolla, Ca.  92093
-----------------------------------------------
| Students of Objectivism                     |
| -----------------------                     |
| Studying the Philosophy of Ayn Rand         |
|                                             |
|                            Sundays 11AM-2PM |
|                Home Savings of America Bank |
|                 4311 La Jolla Village Drive |
| (619) 469-5039      University Towne Center |
|                              San Diego, Ca. |

------------------------------

Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 01:55:36-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Dr. Manfred Clynes

^^^^^^ Anybody know the whereabouts of Dr. Manfred Clynes? ^^^^^^

Had a letter today from SF-author Suzette Haden Elgin, a real nice
lady (and little-known but super filker) sadly afflicted with
multiple sclerosis, asking my Information Specialist assistance.

Mutual friends had told her I had contact with "some sort of
be-acronymed information network that can find any piece of
information whatsoever".  Well, it sounds like they may have
confusedly combined characteristics of ARPA-net and the commercial
database, DIALOG, but the query seems tough enough to stretch the
capabilities of even such a combination.  She writes:

    "For the last two years, I have been trying to get a
    current mailing address for Dr. Manfred Clynes.  The man
    invented the Computer of Average Transients.  He was a
    famous biochemist.  He has published books and articles by
    the peck.  He is a concert pianist.  And he founded the
    American Sentics Assn.  He should NOT be hard to locate.  I
    have tried all the usual things-- queries c/o his
    publishers, notices on electronic bulletin boards, and so
    on, to no avail.  If you should be able to find Clynes for
    me, I'd be so grateful."

Tomorrow I'll see if DIALOG or the university's reference librarian
can come up with anything, but don't expect any better results than
Dr. Elgin has managed.  However, with the broad personal interests,
resources, and contacts of SF-LOVERS readers, y'all just might solve
the conundrum even if it \isn't/ directly science-fictional.  Can
anyone offer any leads other than the standard WHO'S WHO and
AMERICAN MEN & WOMEN OF SCIENCE checking?

(Meanwhile, WHAT is the "Computer of Average Transients", and WHAT
are/is "sentics"?)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #56
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Apr 84 1333-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #56
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:
            Books - Hubbard (2 msgs) & Niven & Pynchon &
                    Varley (2 msgs) & Willians & Review Rebuttal,
            Films - Star Wars (4 msgs),
            Television - The Tomorrow People,
            Miscellaneous - FTL

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 12:07:44-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

I can't remember where I read it, but Hubbard is supposed to have
said at some con, "Someday I'm going to pull something that will
make P.T. Barnum look like a piker!"

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 84 04:12 EST
From: Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: L Ron Hubbard and Scientology

Actually, starting the religion wasn't Hubbard's idea. John Campbell
put him up to it. Campbell later wished he had kept the idea to
himself and done it.

                    Paul

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 84 11:19:49-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!jmcg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Niven's Integral Trees (no spoiler)

I bought Niven's The Integral Trees last night.  I foolishly started
reading it around midnight before going to sleep.  I didn't stop
until I was done, around 5:30am.  Be warned.

The Integral Trees takes place in the gaseous doughnut surrounding
an old neutron star.  Niven has performed the appropriate writer's
magic to make this setting plausible from the point of view of
recent physics, though I felt the biology and human culture to be
less carefully crafted.

The story itself is engaging enough, but lacked the humor and
character depth I remember from the Known Space books.  Cheap
narrative tricks are used to inject the "lectures" that explain how
the place works.  Although most of the main characters "grow", the
reader is not invited in to experience the changes but simply gets
to observe them.  There's more sex than in previous Niven novels.
But, hey, we're talking about a science fiction novel here.  That's
all it is, though written by a favorite author.

My recommendation: Read it, but wait for the paperback.
                                                --jmcg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 1984 13:16:44 EST
From: David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr.
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: "Slow Learner" by Thomas Pynchon

     Though his work isn't totally sf in nature, the writings of
Thomas Pynchon are close enough to merit mention in this list.  So,
for all you Pynchon fans out there, here's a piece of good news:

     The newly-released hardback entitled "Slow Learner" contains
the five hard-to-find short stories written by Pynchon between 1959
and 1964.  These stories were published in small-press magazines and
have been pretty much impossible to locate since then, though they
have been occasionally reprinted in chapbook form overseas (Ziesing
Bros. sometimes has these chapbooks in stock, if anyone's
interested).

     The book is not that long, and with a $14.95 price tag, I'd
recommend that people wait for paperback release.  The contents are:
  1) Introduction (assorted historical looking-backward comments by
Pynchon on the stories and their creation).
  2) "The Small Rain" (March '59)
  3)  "Low-lands" (March '60)
  4)  "Entropy" (Spring '60)
  5)  "Under the Rose" (May '61)
  6)  "The Secret Integration" (December '64).

These stories are all fairly long -- 20-30 pp. each, and would be
better termed novellas or novelets.  Some, by the way, mark the
first appearances of concepts and characters that later appeared in
Pynchon's novels, including the infamous Pig Bodine.

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 1984 1714-PST
Subject: Press Enter[]
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

   Actually, no one I know of here at Caltech speaks in "hacker". In
fact, that was one of the reason I disliked Press Enter[]: it had a
poorly researched background. Normally, I like John Varley. His
plots are interesting (look at some of the short stories in "The
Persistence of Vision" and "The Barbie Murders"). But, he sometimes
gets obsessed with certain themes, then he goes off of the deep end.
For example, rishathtra seemed to dominate "Wizard" and a hate for
computers dominated "The Ophiuchi Hotline" and "Press Enter[]". In
the last case, Varley seemed to swallow the hackers dictionary, and
spew out a poorly written paranoic short story. Sigh. Very
disappointing.

   At least David Brin knows how Techers speak <chuckle>.

                                John (Foo? Who's Foo?) Platt
                                platt @ cit-20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 1984  05:42 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: "Press Enter[]"

Is one of two hacker stories out this month. The other is in
Asimov's, and presents hackers in an even worse light. I believe
Varley wrote that one too. I remember seeing a new item saying he
had teamed up with a programmer (probably the coauthor of "Press
Enter[]"), and was trading law knowlege for computer info.

What annoys me about both stories are these common themes:

 o AI programs can appear out of nothing, based on critical mass. (I
do admire the idea in "Valentina", the other story, of the AI
occuring from the use of bad disk sectors to steal resources). More,
that these intelligences would be anything like human intelligences.

 o There are computers on easily accessable nets which can be broken
into, and which contain sensitive personal or military data under no
protection.

 o No system can be protected from an attack of sufficient skill.

 o All computers can talk to all others, and control them.

The fact that non-programmers are learning the language is to be
feared, not greeted. All it means is that writers can write crap
with convincing language, which scares people needlessly.

                                        James M. Turner
                                        RG.JMTURN!MIT-MC@MIT-OZ

P.S. If I see one more bloody system MOTD which reads "Welcome,
Professor Falken", or "Shall we play a game", I think I'm going to
throw my terminal! Preferably at WarGame's writers!

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Apr 1984 12:44-PST
Subject: Paul O. Williams
From: Kevin W. Rudd <kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim>

wrote the Pelbar series.  he is an english professor at principia
college outside of saint louis.
 -- K

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  3 Apr 1984 10:39-PST
Subject: defense of chalker/foster
From: Kevin W. Rudd <kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim>

I won't say that I often read pulp sf/fantasy, but both of these
authors are MUCH better than many that are out attempting to sell
books.  Case in point -- I just (after 7 years of gathering dust)
read Lin Carter's epic introduction Journey to the Underground
World.  All I can say is that at least Chalker had SOME substance to
it.  The only book which I have read which carries off the "Oh, no,
this is THE END, there is no escape poss--- wait! Thank God for the
... [etc.]" is Harry Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers.
This book, like River of the Dancing Gods, and VERY UNLIKE Journey
to the Underground World, doesn't take itself TOO seriously.
Sometimes it is just kind of amusing to read a book like that.
Needless to say, it will be at least another 7 years before I read
another Lin Carter book.
  -- K

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 84 13:14:57-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Endor and the Death Star

A point nobody seems to have made...

If I had the capability to make such a shield, I certainly would
have put one on the Death Star!!  Since the force field didn't seem
to take up THAT much room, and the Death Star is "the size of a
small moon", I'm sure it would have fit on (and could have been
powered by) the battle station.

So why, once the battle had begun, didn't the Emperor raise the
shield on the "fully operational" battle station?  Perhaps they
needed it lowered to fire the weapon...?

                                SJBerry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 84 8:58:14-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf)

The exact lines from the movie are:

Two red Imperial Guards stand watch at the elevator as the door
opens to reveal Vader. Vader enters the eerie, foreboding throne
room. It appears to be empty. His footsteps echo as he approaches
the throne. He waits, absolutely still. The Emperor sits with his
back to the Dark Lord.

EMPEROR:        I told you to reamin on the command ship.
VADER:          A small rebel force has penetarted the shield and
                landed on Endor.
EMPEROR:        (no surprise) Yes, I know.
VADER:          (after a beat) My son is with them.
EMPEROR:        (very cool) Are you sure?
VADER:          I have felt him, my Master.
EMPEROR:        Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings
                on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.

Vader knows what he is being asked.

VADER:          They are clear, my Master.
EMPEROR:        Then you must go to the Sanctaury Moon and wait for
                him.
VADER:          (skeptical) He will come to me?
EMPEROR:        I have forseen it. His compassion for you will be his
                undoing. He will come to you and then you will bring
                him to me.
VADER:          (bows) As you wish.

The Dark Lord strides out of the throne room.

                     Mark L. Starner
                     Pennsylvania State University
                     {allegra, burdvax, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!starner

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 7:13:49-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Endor and the Death Star

> It is easily conceivable that such a force shield must originate
> from some power-generating place (the moon) and be projected to
> the thing it protects.  Trying to put the generating station on
> the Death Star would be like sitting in a car and pushing on the
> dashboard -- you don't go anywhere.

I don't recall the starship Enterprise ever having to drag a planet
everywhere they go in order to use their deflector shields...

                                SJBerry

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 8:32:50-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!infopro!dave @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: Re: Endor and the Death Star

You forget that Star Trek happens in the future, but Star Wars
happened in the past...  "That's the biz, sweetheart..."
          Dave Fiedler
{harpo,astrovax,philabs}!infopro!dave

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 5:44:21-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: The Tomorrow People

Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA> asks for information on the
British show "The Tomorrow People".  I've watched the whole thing on
Nickelodeon and liked most of it, it gets rather silly toward the
end.  Each story is a serial of from 2 to 5 parts.  It is by Thames
Television (not BBC).

Alan:   "The heroes are kids who have special powers of some sort."

The "tomorrow people" feel they are the next step in human
evolution.  Their special powers (telepathy, short range
teleportation- "jaunting", telekenesis, depending on the person)
"break out" during adolescence, an effect similar to threshold
sickness in the Darkover books.  The main character, John, is the
first tomorrow person known to have survived this without
subconsciously rejecting the powers and not being able to use them
fully.  He was contacted by a federation of telepathic alien races
who will one day invite humans to join them and who, since a
telepathic race is developing on earth, watch over it and protect
this development from the interference of violent, nontelepathic
races.  An effect of the telepathic development is the inability to
commit any violent acts.  They are dedicated to finding other
developing tomorrow people and in keeping their existence secret
from all governments and military organizations, for fear of being
exploited.

Alan:   "They can teleport (sometimes they need some kind of gadget,
sometimes they don't)."

Short "jaunts" don't need power/computer assistance.  For longer
distances the computer can coordinate and trace their teleportation.

Alan:   "They have some sort of self aware computer (or something,
its not clear its really a computer)."

The computer, named Tim, was built by John using technology from the
aliens.

The serials get shorter and sillier as the show progresses.  For
Doctor Who fans out there - the very worst serial has Peter
Davison's TV debut, it is so bad it's embarrassing to watch.

                                Mary Anne Espenshade
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 17:29:43-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Keep the Starships Flying!

In the old days, we were plagued with people who proved the Earth
flat, on the basis of impeccably garbled Aristotelean physics.  Then
we had the sound barrier, the proofs that a bumblebee can't fly,
that rockets couldn't work in a vacuum (they would have nothing to
push against) and so on.

Today it is FTL travel that seems to rattle the cages of the
apostles of final truth.  Well, I think they're probably wrong.

First, Einstein's Theory of General Relativity is not final truth,
any more that Newton, Descartes, Galileo or Boskovich established
final truth.  So at most one might say "as far as we understand it
at present, FTL travel is impossible".

Secondly, even that is not true.  Nothing in General Relativity
prohibits FTL travel - it is merely acceleration upto and through
the speed of light that seems to involve infinities.  And I'm not
completely certain that these infinities are totally prohibitive -
we have similar infinities in quantum electrodynamics, and in
Olbers' Paradox, but they no longer worry people.  If we suppose
some "tunnelling" transition from sublight to superlight speeds,
then, as Feynman showed, it is possible to construct equations that
reasonably describe FTL motion.

Thirdly, FTL travel does not involve travel backwards in time.  If
you plug velocities greater than "c" into the Lorentz equations, you
do not get a reversal of the sign of "t"; you get terms involving
"i.t".  Now I have no idea what imaginary time means, but then I
have no idea what a lot of physics means.  If you went on a voyage
round the Galaxy by FTL ship, in other words, you would get back
home to find SOME time had elapsed on earth, and you couldn't kill
your granmdfather.  There are anomalies associated with signalling
and synchronization, but they all resolve if we throw out the
assumption that no information can travel faster than light - which
the Wu experiment disproved anyway, in the quantum realm.

Moreover, there is no inherent contradiction in the idea of moving
backwards in time.  Most physical equations remain valid under time
reversal - Newton's equations of motion, Clausius' heat equations,
Maxwell's equations, the "relative state" reformulations of
Schroedinger's equation, &c.  In addition, most physical laws can be
rewritten not in terms of differential equations (which some people
interpret as implying causality) but in terms of integral equations
(which those same people do not interpret as implying finality or
entelechy).  A famous example is Heron's Brachistochrone theorem,
the "final" reformulation of Snell's "causal" law of refraction.
The alleged "paradoxes" of time travel are a figment of inadequate
mathematical descriptions; using integral equations, the problems
usually resolve to finding the fixed point of a function.
Differential methods (and computers) find the weakest fixed point,
which is not the same thing at all.

So keep designing those starships, friends!

Robert Firth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #57
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Apr 84 1318-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #57
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:
            Books - Harrison & Kornbluth & Williamson &
            Author Requests Answered & Story Request,
            Films - Star Wars,
            Television - The Tomorrow People,
            Miscellaneous - Time Travel & FTL

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 April 1984 21:13-EST
From: James A. Cox <APPLE @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers
To: "kevinw@SU-DSN@ISL" @ SUMEX-AIM

"Doesn't take itself too seriously" is right.  If memory serves, the 
book had some kids flying around the galaxy in a "modified" 747.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 17:07:12-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Author Enquiry

The Syndic was written by C M Kornbluth, I believe in the late '40s.
It's a great SF novel, though its premise - that government by
organiszd crime would be more tolerable, more efficient and more
honest than what we have now - is perhaps too extreme for our
present decade.

[Moderator's Note: thanks also to Chip
(nylander%orphan.DEC%decwrl@csnet-relay) for the same information.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Apr 84 15:39:39-MST
From: Jerry Duggan <duggan@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: title request...

Jack Williamson wrote the Pelbar series

jpd

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 1984 07:14:11-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: author request

ROADSIDE PICNIC by Strugatsky & Strugatsky? (I won't argue with a
majority.)
THE SYNDIC by Cyril M. Kornbluth (probably the best novel by K w/o
Pohl)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 84 08:30 PST
From: MDugan.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #56

I committed the Ultimate mistake and let someone borrow a favorite
SF book which I occasionally reread just for the fun of it (this was
about 8 yrs. ago).  I further complicated the mistake by forgetting
the Author and title.  I am hoping someone can help me locate it
again (any pointers to where to get a copy would help as well).  The
story line went something like this:

A WWII submarine was attacking an enemy destroyer in the Pacific and
there was a terrible collision but when the lights came back on
everything seemed to be okay and the sub proceeded to port.  As the
story progressed the crew discovered they really weren't at Pearl
Harbor but instead a pretty good duplicate.  The captain is finally
appraised that not only are they not at Pearl but they are not even
on Earth.

The basic premise was that the Earth had progressed through many
centuries and had genetically engineered out the capacity for
mankind to participate in violence (war and fighting) during one of
the political swings to pacifism.

The sub was, in fact, heavily damaged by the destroyer back in 1942
and quickly went to the bottom with all crewmen on board.  The
combination of sea water and a special cargo of chemicals combined
into a preservative that allowed the boat to be raised and the crew
partially revived around the year 2000. (this is an area of the book
that I found implausible) The crew and boat were turned into a
museum exibit and demonstrated WWII sea technology for many years.

Finally, mankind was attacked by an Alien civilization and needed
help to fight back.  The sub crew was brought to the planet under
attack, revived to consciousness, and gradually educated about their
status/history, the year, etc.

The rest of the book describes how the sub crew becomes a catalyst
for a counter-attack and how it is carried out.

The book was an interesting combination of a WWII submarine yarn and
a neat Sci-fi premise.

ANY help locating this book again will be greatly appreciated!!

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 84 19:51:53-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccs7!ee163aca @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Endor and the Death Star

        I was under the impression that the Death Star was not
fully-operational until the last minute.  I seem to recall Darth
getting ticked-off at the commander of the thing, because work was
progressing so slowly ( "We will double our efforts" I believe was
his reply ).  A shield would be necessary to protect the Death Star
until it was tested-out.  I sure wouldn't stake my one and only
Death Star to the Rebel Fleet if I hadn't tested it out yet.

P. van de Graaf         U. C. San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 84 17:28:43-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Tomorrow People

Disclaimer -- I used to watch the show as a form of static.  MTV was
              too distracting and it was easier to pipe TTP >
              /dev/null than try to actively ignore my noisy
              apartment complex.  All precision is due to (1)
              simplicity and (2) repetition.


*The Tomorrow People* was a somewhat inconsistent British television
show of the mid 1970's.  It is my understanding that it was
originally intended for the full audience, but is only used as a
kid's show in North America.  (verilee interesting....)

The basic premise was not unlike *Childhood's End*, except that it
was somewhat less distressing to the adults.  In a nutshell, the
"Tomorrow People" are the evolutionary step beyond homo sapiens, and
in fact they modestly called themselves "homo superior" and everyone
else "saps" for the first few seasons.

Their native talents, which do not appear until the early teens, are
teleportation, telepathy, and psychokinesis.  In return for their
abilities they are unable to kill others, even in order to save
themselves.  (Have I heard this somewhere before?)

Although they can teleport themselves, they generally use those
devices (there were three versions of them) for added range.

The computer was a "biological" computer which "John" constructed
from pieces he (unknowingly) received from the "Galactic
Federation". Yeah.

Somehow, this computer was also capable of telepathy and monitoring
all television and radio frequencies throughout the world, along
with controlling several deep-space spacecraft which act as a "DEW"
line for the earth.  No mention was ever made of how these
satellites were placed into position.

Of course, this computer is fully intelligent, and as I recall
occasionally quoted Shakespeare.

They also had several other interesting devices, to put it mildly.
I must admit, however, that the devices generally made some sense,
despite the fact that the nearest real-life equivalent would cost
billions of dollars and require a nearby FermiLab or CERN, while
theirs either fit into a pocket or were part of the computer's
equipment.

As I mentioned, the shows were somewhat inconsistent.  Here is a
breakdown by season, but I've forgotten a great deal of the details:

1: (1972?)  Characters: John, (white male, late teens)
                        Carol, (white female, mid-late teens)
                        Peter, (white male, early teens)
                        ..?.., (black male, early-mid teens)

   Action: Primarily tried to protect themselves from the hostile
   "saps."  Spent a great deal of time in converted subway lab.

2: Characters:  John, Peter
                Elizabeth, (black female, early 20's)

   Action: Still protecting themselves from hostile "saps," although
   Elizabeth, a school teacher, forced them to spend more time
   helping others.  Went forward 500 years and assisted a "time
   lord" or something, making enemy of robot they teleported to
   Mercury.  Went back to Roman times, screwed up, and returned to a
   20th century Roman empire spread throughout the galaxy.
   Something about a steam engine....

3: Characters:  John, Peter, Elizabeth
                ..?..  (white male, early teens)

   Action: Rescued another tomorrow person from the evil grasp of a
   parapsychologist, and hence the evil grasp of the military. (Come
   again?), meet yet another tomorrow person (..?..: white female,
   early 20's) working for the military, freed a planet held by the
   same aliens who (1) built the pyramids of Egypt, (2) use
   mind-waves that prevent parapsychological abilities, and (3)
   enjoy humanburgers.  Robot from first season returns, generally
   makes the show half-way exciting, and tries to enslave the TP.
   Results in TP being sold out in supermarkets worldwide... no,
   that was Johnny Carson,...  oh yeah, Galatic Federation Hero
   arrives, takes TP (no, I will NOT say it!) back to Federation
   Headquarters for indefinite period, parapsychologist goes into
   coma from shock of losing his subjects.

4: Characters:  John, Elizabeth, ..?.. (?)
                Mike (white male, early teens)

   Action: Show renewed.  Several TP return to earth. Meanwhile, yet
   another TP arrives on scene, leads to interesting discussion of
   social classes in mid 1970's England.  By now the TP have started
   working their way into the British Government (i.e. they
   kidnapped the Prime Minister), tangle with Russian spies, tangle
   with M5 or Scotland Yard or some other such group, save the world
   from destruction by a radical Scottish terrorist group that (1)
   hijacks a rocket to (2) hijack a U.N. peacekeeping space-station
   armed with nuclear weapons.  (Some of the writers were listening
   to the Governor of California, apparently).

5: Characters:  John, Elizabeth, Mike
                Sun Lee (?) (oriental female, late teens)
                Andrew (white male, early teens)

   Action: Set finally replaced with something looking half-decent.
   Mini-computer (portable) constructed.  Sun Lee (?) saved from
   human sacrifice in orient.  Andrew caught while creating ghosts
   and goblins in his father's hotel, Nessie on the Loch.  Show
   definitely shows the end of imagination of the writers.

   Finale: Earth caught in war between two alien species.  American
   President made to look like a total idiot.  AP speaks with
   *heavy* Texas accent, also.  American military also made to look
   like total idiots, worse than *WarGames*.  Galactic Federation
   suddenly decides to play "But what can we do" when it is
   discovered that the earth is soon not to be, John thrown in jail
   because of emotional outburst in front of council (*very* cheap
   aliens, incidently).  Fellow TPers with aid of American astronaut
   they saved earlier in show steal military spacecraft, go to
   Federation Headquarters, and nuke it.  (Note: FH is a giant
   spacecraft thingee).  The perfect shots they are, they hit an
   empty warehouse.  (With a nuclear weapon?  I think someone needs
   to talk to the writers...).  John released, TP go back to earth
   and single-handedly defend it, hand control back to the American
   President (which is good for a few chuckles), and the Federation
   comes to them to apologize, saying they were right and it was
   time for a new beginning in the Federation....

Conclusion: It has got to be better than *HeMan: Master of the
Universe* for impressing kids with science fiction.  But I keep
wondering how the Tomorrow People would ever survive.  They went
through probabily 10 TP, and except for one instance "he" never
noticed "she" (and vice versa) despite living together around the
clock and being at an age when hormone levels are rather high.  But,
of course, a kid won't notice that, RIGHT?!

ave discordia                      going bump in the night ...
bruce giles

decvax!ucf-cs!giles                university of central florida
giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay            orlando, florida 32816

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 1984  19:47 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam@UCB-VAX.ARPA
Subject: Sure we can!

I don't believe in sentient universes...

Or, to expand, the problem I always had with the model of time
travel as put forth by people like Niven (Jesus dying because of a
jammed machine gun, etc), is that it implied a sentient and very
clever universe trying to unbolix the mess you make. I prefer the
idea that you can change the future, but the amount of energy it
takes to throw you into the past is equal to the amount of damage
you do. Since this can be a function of your state of mind when you
leave, you may be able to go one day, but not the next. For example:

A man decides to go and kill his father. He hops into his time
machine and presses go...red lights start to blink and smoke comes
out before the override cuts in. He realizes that since his GF was
going to invent a cure for cancer *after* he was going to be killed,
too much was going to be different, thus too much mass would
eventually be in a different position. The next day, he sets the
dial for just *after* the cure is discovered, and manages to make
it, because less changes in the world. I still don't want his power
bill....
                                                James

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 1984 1532-EST
From: "John Redford" <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Re: FTL travel

    I believe Steve Maurer is right about the physics problems of
FTL drives; if you travel faster than light there are reference
frames in which you travel backwards in time. It shouldn't make a
difference whether you do it with tachyons or hyperdrives or
whatever.  You are still going to violate causality, and that's a
little more valuable than the prospect of interstellar tourism.
     However, all of that is irrelevant.  FTL travel is just a
device to project the great explorations of the past into the
future.  Writers want to retell the great stories of Magellan and
Cook (Captain James Cook => Captain James T.  Kirk) but can't do it
in terms of sailing ships and Polynesian islands because they've
become too familiar.  They want to talk about strange new
civilizations and colonies and empires, but all the present-day
opportunities have become too prosaic.  Do you want to write a story
about a hive city teeming with intrigue, whose inhabitants live and
die within the same cramped quarters?  Well, Hong Kong is where we
get tennis shoes and cheap watches.  Would you like to write about
mighty battles between colossal ships, with the fates of empires
hanging in the balance?  Old Fred down the street fought at Midway
and will tell you about it at length.
     The real constraints of interstellar travel are not compatible
with stories like this.  If you use time dilation or suspended
animation to fit the story into one person's lifetime then the
characters are permanently cut off from their home culture.  You
won't come back from an interstellar battle covered in glory because
the war will have occurred centuries in the past for the people back
on Earth (Eg "The Forever War").  Maintaining an empire is
ridiculous when it takes twenty years to dispatch troops to a
trouble spot.  If you make your characters into patient immortals
willing to wait out the long journeys (Eg "Protector") they become
less human and harder to identify with.
      If you are worried more about getting somewhere rather than
telling good stories about it, then relativity is actually an
advantage.  With time dilation you can get a virtual speed much
greater than that of light.  That is, you can travel a light-year in
the Earth frame in less than a year of ship time.  At 0.99c the
people on board see themselves as going seven light-years per year.
The real limit to how fast you can go is how much energy you have to
expend to do it.  To go seven times the speed of light (2.1 billion
m/s) requires a kinetic energy of 2.2 * 10^18 joules per kilogram
without special relativity, and only 5.5 * 10^17 j/kg with it, a
factor of four difference.  At 100c special relativity wins by a
factor of fifty.  Of course, at that level you have minor problems
like dust coming at you at .999c and starlight being dopplered up
into X-rays, but if you can figure out a way to put that much energy
into something you're probably smart enough to solve the other
problems too.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #58
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Apr 84 1349-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #58
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:
              Books - Brin & High (2 msgs) & Hubbard &
                      Author Correction & "Valentina",
              Films - Star Wars & High Speed Film (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Assistance Please & "Once is an Accident" &
                      Time Paradoxes & FTL (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 84 1:20:31-PST (Sun)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Practice Effect **teensie spoile - (nf)

>>  Hmm... maybe there IS sometime to the "Practice Effect" ;-}

>No, he specifically mentioned that the Practice Effect did not work
>on animate matter.  Nice try....

Perhaps what he does is take one manuscript, practice it a while,
send a copy off to a publisher, practice it some more, send off
another copy, etc. etc.

Surely you can practice a manuscript!  Just read it a lot!

--berry (Why isn't my terminal getting any better?) kercheval

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 12:03 PST (Thursday)
From: Hallgren.pa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #57

In answer to Mike Dugans' author & title request, the book he is
looking for is

                        "Time Mercenaries" by Philip E. High

it is an ACE Double.  The genetic engineering wasn't too successful;
a punch in the nose undid it.  The enemy, by the way, were a race of
intelligent frogs! and mankind were aided by some "elfish-people"
allies.  A fun read all right!

Other favorites by High, "The Prodigal Sun", a novel, " and four
other ACE Double stories. Enjoy.

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Apr 84 02:24:27-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Submarine story identification
Cc: mougan.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Submarine-SF Story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mark's mis-remembered the ocean and the port (not the Pacific and
Pearl Harbor-- Atlantic, and somewhere in Britain), but he
recognizes a good tale!  It's THE TIME MERCENARIES by Philip E.
High.  A 1968 Ace "double" (H59), about the only sources would be
specialist dealers or at cons (check the ads in LOCUS for likely
suppliers).  The price shouldn't be too bad since High doesn't have
a big following to run it up, tho there ARE a lot of Ace-Doubles
collectors who mess a writer's real fans up by collecting for
collecting's sake.

Philip E. High fans of the world-- Arise!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 84 12:50:54-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!k
From: carroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Hubbard

   L. Ron Hubbard is in fact the inventor of Dianetics, and the guru
of Scientology. He was also, in the 1940's (before inventing
dianetics), a science-fiction writer, and a popular one at that. I
believe that he was responsible for the "Ol' Doc Methuselah" series
of stories.  For those who haven't heard the story, dianetics took
the science-fiction community by storm. A.E. van Vogt and John W.
Campbell in particular became involved in it. Several writers had
themselves "cleared" by Hubbard (I think that's the terminology),
and went on to become "auditors", trying to "clear" all of their
friends. I beleive that Campbell's second wife he met thru
dianetics. However, most reasonable people became quickly
disenchanted with the whole thing ( within about a year).  Hubbard
then went on to found his little religion; he seems to have done
quite well by it, although he spends most of his time on his yacht,
out in international waters, to avoid being arrested by the FBI.
-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: Thu 5 Apr 84 16:26:41-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Correction on author of "Pelbar Cycle"

WHOA!!  The Pelbar novels were NOT written by Jack Williamson, they
were written by the 1983 Campbell Award winner, Paul O. Williams.
-Rich

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to  LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20 who sent the
same correction ]

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Apr 1984 09:27:31-PST
From: turner%parsec.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA
To: cc%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA
Subject: Valentina & Cohortroutines

"Valentina" is in May Analog, not Asimov's, and is not by Varley at
all; the item JMT remembers is April's "In Times to Come":

        ...Both Marc Stiegler and Joseph H. Delaney have become well
        known to Analog readers, but "Valentina" didn't become a
        real possibility until they met face to face at the 1982
        World SF Convention in Chicago.  There Joe remarked that he
        had a story that he'd love to write if he knew more about
        computers, and it turned out Marc had been holding back on a
        similar one because he didn't know enough law.  Well, Joe is
        a lawyer and Marc a computer expert, and...

I thought "Valentina" was kind of cute, though I don't know what I'm
comparing it to cuz I missed "Hit Enter[]" (note Varley apparently
knew the restrictions imposed on manual-writers by
standards-writers).  Based on a few details like the Mar-14 security
robot, I think the story is set a little in the future when, we are
to assume, not all but a whole lot of computers (DEC had 1950 last
time I saw someone count'em, hi guys) are on a worldwide net because
they need it for information trade.  So much for easy access -- at
least Stiegler doesn't pretend we can do a DIRectory when we've
failed to log in.

Now as to control and breaking in, we are once again being asked to
believe in an improbably competent HUMAN.  (I'm not claiming
anything is unbreakable in principle until I find whether that
fellow in Israel really cracked a trapdoor encryption, so I'll play
along with the assumption that it's just a matter of DEGREE of
skill.)  I still don't believe in Gunboat Smith, I also disbelieve
in Indiana Jones three times each day before breakfast, for
practice.  But the super-whiz or -wiz is one of the most enduring
and most fondly endured improbabilities foisted upon us by science
fiction in the name of suspending disbelief.  Along with socks that
stand up by themselves (if they can do that, it's because they're
never by themselves)!  Humans definitely suffer more stereotyping
than computers in this story, but we can go along by convention.

The AI program in "Valentina" didn't appear out of nothing -- its
intelligence or self-awareness did!  If you doubt the discontinuity
between intelligence and intelligent behavior -- which would make
the emergence of intelligence on earth what we call a catastrophe,
right? -- then you'd probably also believe that frogs have souls
(little ones).  You'd be right, but that's another item.  Point is,
given that there once was no intelligence and now there is some, if
intelligence doesn't appear out of nothing then you have to admit it
develops out of something that already has no or less intelligence;
all the AI programs I've ever seen met that criterion.  [If you
think intelligence CAN appear out of nothing, then no problem: it
might as well appear out of THIS nothing.]

I take issue most strongly with the doubt that artificial
intelligences would be anything like human ones.  One of the most
striking features (and virtues) of intelligence is abstraction from
its physical circumstances.  And although the abstraction may be
much less complete than many give it credit for, remember the "laws
of thought" according to which Valentina was constructed were
thought up by a human.  I think we face the exobiologists'
challenge, distinguishing the similarities we should expect from the
differences we may or may not be able to imagine.  "Valentina"
doesn't follow the second, often entertaining set of possibilities
very far, though deassigning Gunboat's I/O ports with the robot's
"non-maskable interrupt" transmitter is a nice start.

By the way, I am not the same person to which this response is
directed (note the different middle initial).  I am convinced that
James M. Turner was artificially created when one of my AI programs
punched a second hole in the RX50 of my Pro, escaped, and swiped
some bad blocks containing data which was corrupted in that all the
"W"s were upside down.  -- James W. Turner DEC/CSME

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 84 13:58:06-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!rabbit!sdh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Loose Ends?

What I want to know is: What happened to all those imperial cruisers
that were dicing the rebel forces (or so said the emperor). From
what I remember from sw, just one of those was a formidable attack
force, since they had loads of them, where did they go?  Don't tell
me they got blown up with the death star, because the rebels
would've been taken with them.

"Life.. don't talk to me about life" -Marvin
<allegra,alice>!rabbit!sdh
Steve Hawley

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 84 00:02:56 EST
From: Paul Milazzo <milazzo@cmu-cs-g.ARPA>
Subject: New technologies and the cinema

>   "The truth is that most filmmakers embrace new technologies,
>   once they have been perfected and are economically feasible.
>   Even Chaplin eventually went to sound."
>                               - Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>

True, but the process is usually painful and not always better in
every respect.  For evidence of the former, consider the effect the
advent of sound had on Abel Gance; he destroyed his just-completed
(silent) "Napoleon".  Of course, he also later made many sound
films.

In support of the latter point, many people have pointed out that
the special effects in Fritz Lang's "Metropolis" were made possible
only by the greater latitude of black-and-white film.

                                Paul G. Milazzo <Milazzo@Rice.ARPA>
                                (temporarily hiding at CMU)
                                Dept. of Computer Science
                                Rice University, Houston, TX

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 84 21:36:54-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!clyde!watmath!wa
From: tcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: high-speed film

Does SHOWSCAN use 70mm film running vertically or horizontally?
(IMAX is horizontal.)  Is it wide-screen or close to normal 4:3
ratio?

With 60 frames/sec, motion would be a lot smoother.  Does it use a
single- blade shutter in the projector?  That would get rid of the
double-image effects seen when something moves rapidly.

I wanna see it!

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 1984 13:27:35-EST
From: carol at mit-cipg

I am writing an sf short story, and need the assistance of a
broad-minded Physicist for some plausible bogus physics.  Is there
somebody out there who would be willing to help me?

Thanks in advance.
                                             carol@mit-cipg

p.s.  I know there's a physics net, but thought I'd have better
      luck here.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  5 Apr 1984 11:26:34-PST
From: minow%rex.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Once is an accident

In SFL V9.53, Jerry Bakin (Bakin @ HI-MULTICS) quotes one of Arthur
Clarke's characters as observing "once is an accident, twice is a
coincidence, three times is a conspiracy."

If I remember correctly, the first use of that phrase was from one
of the James Bond novels (Goldfinger?): "once is happistance, twice
is an accident, three times is enemy action."

Martin Minow

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 1984 18:08:12-EST
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: time paradoxes vs. the universe

Niven's remark is possibly borrowing from L. Sprague de Camp's
solution as described in A GUN FOR DINOSAUR: attempting to cause a
paradox creates such a strain on the fabric of the universe that you
are slammed back to your starting point, with the effect of having
covered a distance of c * t in minimal subjective time (this has the
tendency to reduce paradoctors to jelly). Niven and Alfred Bester
also considered the fantastical approach: time travel affects your
own reality, either by sending you to a semi-imaginary universe
(Niven) or by gradually fading you out of this one (Bester). Cute...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 84 10:31 EST
From: "Allan C. Wechsler" <acw%SCC-WAIKATO@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #56

It used to be only death and taxes.  But now, it seems, there are
three things one cannot prevent: death, taxes, and ignorant people
misinterpreting Special Relativity.

I've been on this list a long time.  I must have read the following
"FTL manifesto" at least twenty times.  I rephrase it for reference

I) Special Relativity prohibits, not travel faster than light, but
acceleration through the "light barrier".

II) Special Relativity does not involve time reversal.  It only
involves "imaginary time".

III) Anyone who disagrees with I and II is a conservative
Neanderthal who, if his disease were only a little worse, would
defend the Flat Earth.

I resist the temptation to explain Special Relativity once again.
Suffice it to say that people who espouse I and II are ignorant of
the theory.  I and II are simply dead wrong.  They are
misinterpretations based on people looking only at the Lorenz
Transformation.  They think that that is all there is to Special
Relativity.  Special Relativity expressly forbids information from
any event escaping the light-cone of that event.  I said EXPRESSLY.
Check Einstein, dammit, and stop relying on Heinlein as an
authority.

Oops, I'm flaming.  Sorry.  I know you would rather believe in the
Flat Earth than give up FTL.

   --- Allan

------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Apr 84 07:22:02-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #56

        If you can cruise around faster than light, then it follows
(from special relativity, Lorentz transformations, etc) that you can
find a frame of reference where A occurs before B, and one where B
occurs before A for any two events A and B. I'm sure you've pictures
of light cones where spacetime is divided into regions -- events
that couldn't have effect A, events that could, events A can effect,
events that A will never effect. All this goes away and your left
with any event able to affect any other event, not so good if you
want to hang on to causality.

        Thermodynamics is the only process that is not
time-symetric, you can tell which way time is running by seeing if
you are creating or losing ordered energy.

Joe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #59
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 84 1631-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #59
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:
            Books - Bradbury & Hubbard & Lem (3 msgs) &
                    Book Reviews & "Valentina",
            Films - High Speed Film (3 msgs) & Star Trek &
                    Star Wars (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!KVANSTONE@Berkeley
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 84 14:46:39 est
Subject: out-of print Bradbury

GREETINGS,
  I am a Ray Bradbury fanatic and am trying to develope a complete
Bradbury collection.  I have all in-print bradbury books and many
out of print ones including some that were never for sale in the
U.S. (specificaly "The Day it Rained Forever" from Penguin books),
and many anthologies containing Bradburie's work.  My problem is
that I can find no books that I don't already have.  I have tried
title searches through various used book stores on the titles that I
allready know and after six months have come up with one posible
lead on one book. I have also searched through every used boook
store I can get my hands on, and I have searched through "Books In
Print".  I found nothing!
  Does anyone know where I can find other out of print Bradbury
books or even where I can find a list of all bradbury titles ever
printed?  It doesn't matter if some of them are gatherings of
stories printed in other books -- I told you I'm a fanatic. Also:
how would I go about finding titles and doing searches on my own?
This information would be useful for fanatics of any author.

                      Thanks
                            Kevin A. Cheek

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 84 16:47:50-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!palmer @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

    My favorite L. Ron Hubbard quote is approximately:

        "Someday I'll pull something that will make P. T. Barnum
        look like a piker."

    This was quoted in a book about writing science fiction.  The
book was by a husband-wife team (I think either the del Rays, the
van Voghts, or the Andersons) but I can't remember any more details.

    I don't know whether the Scientologists believe that 'Ron' has
the gift of prophesy, but this is certainly compelling evidence.

                    David Palmer

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 19:48:44-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.cca @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: In defense of S. Lem

All of the humorous short story collections of Lem are quite
worthwhile.  In addition to the ones mentioned, Mortal Engines comes
to mind.  Is novels, on the other hand, just aren't in the same
class.

Don't get turned off by Solaris, read his short story collections!

Charlie Allen
UUCP:           pur-ee!Physics:cca, purdue!Physics:cca
INTERNET:       cca @ pur-phy.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 84 15:32:47-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!mdg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More on S. Lem

Why has no one mentioned Pirx the Pilot, or More Tales of Pirx the
Pilot.  I laughed my way through both of them.  I don't think that
my background helped that much. ( I worked on Air Force Flight
Simulators, and my wife is Russian emigrant.)  Both books are really
collections of short stories about the adventures and mis-adventures
of a young space cadet. WITH NO MEMORABLE POLITICS!  I may be wrong
but apparently Lem and the Soviets don't always see eye to eye but
Russians that like sci-fi love him.  My wife tells me that some of
his works preach true socialism, but that it matters as little to
the story as Heinlein's communes to Time Enough For Love.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 8:14:32-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: In defense of S. Lem

The real problem with @i{Solaris} is the poor translation.  The
movie was a bit more successful at keeping the attention of the
audience.

But despite all the difficulties with Solaris, there is something
haunting about the attempt at communicating through images evoking
strong emotional responses in the humans.  What do you do when
presented with the ghost of someone sorely missed?  What do you do
when given this second chance, even though you know it's entirely
fabricated?  Is it evil?  Do you deny it?  And what sort of
communication is taking place?

I found @i{Solaris} as amorphous and shifting as the creature (?)
itself.

Lisa Chabot
UUCP:   ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot@{ Berkeley | SU-Shasta }
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlboro, MA  01752
shadow: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!avalon!chabot

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 84 10:00:16-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Bard / Many Colored Lands (revisited)

Bard by Keith Tailor (Ace Fantasy $2.75)
    Bard is a fantasy set in the early days of Britain (about AD400)
    just prior to the days of Uther Pendragon and Arthur. The Bard
    is an irish magician/storyteller travelling England and the
    adventures that befall him. It is a straight fantasy, and I
    found it was quite well done.  People who are not as interested
    in early day England may not like it as well. Highly
    recommended. (*** of 5)

The Many Colored Lands by Julian May (Ballantine $2.95)
    A while back I posted a review of this book where I panned it
    and left it unfinished. At the suggestion of a few people who's
    taste I respect, I finally picked it up again. If you can get
    past the first hundred pages or so, this is quite a good book.
    There is way too much introductory material (the first 100 pages
    or so) that moves much too slowly, and doesn't really mean much
    to the story itself. It could have been much better if it was
    cut by about 50%, and since the book is 425 pages, it wouldn't
    have made things too short. A better alternative might have been
    what Chris Stasheff did with 'The Warlock in Spite of Himself
    (highly recommended!)' by placing the details of the history of
    everything in its own book (called 'Escape Velocity', also
    recommended). There is definitely enough material here for a
    book of its own, and I think it deserves its own focus. Here it
    gets in the way of a really good fantasy story.

    The many colored land is the story of three fighting factions,
    set back in the time of the Pliocene stage of earth. Human
    misfits wishing to drop out of society are allowed to travel
    back in time on a one way journey to this time in a attempt to
    find their version of paradise.  When they get there, they are
    enslaved by an alien life form that uses them for their own
    purposes. This story is the story of the the start of the war
    between these aliens and those that would bring down their
    civilization and the slavery they bring to the humans. Once the
    story gets going, it is quite well done, and Julian (a quite
    nice lady, by the way) is very good at creating interesting and
    attractive characters that make you care about them. This is the
    first book in a trilogy, so the climax of the book isn't as big
    as it might be, but it is quite satisfying and the book ends at
    a very appropriate place.  (*** of 5, four if you skim the first
    100 pages).

>From under the bar at Callahan's:      Chuq Von Rospach
{amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242

A toast! To absent friends... {clink}

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Apr 1984  22:34 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: turner%parsec.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
Cc: cc%decwrl.ARPA@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
Subject: Valentina & Cohortroutines

Hmm...I thought Lauren was the definitive AI candidate...The old SFL
archives mention 7 cat brains tied together with a chaosnet.

"I have not now, nor have I ever been, a system monitor!"

Now to rebutal:
Clearly, it is true that most modern AI programs try to mimick human
thought. However, the farther you wander from the goal of trying to
ape natural intelligence, and toward actually doing something (like
expert systems), the less they act like humans. In fact, the
Valentina program was an allocation eating tapeworm, a system
cracking expert system. I will grant it could be amazingly human in
the ways it would try to break into systems, but it would no more
develop emotions that Macsyma would suddenly try to kill you ("I
tell you officer, all I did was request the derivative of X^2+3, and
it shot flames at me.")

Human deductive reasoning is a tricky thing, much harder than
inference, yet Valentina seems to operated on nothing but. And most
system cracking involves inference.

My basic argument is that expert systems don't achieve
self-awareness.  They are limited pieces of knowledge abstraction
which attempt to model a process and provide guesses. If anything,
they are less likely to "come alive" than your copy of visi-calc

BTW, do you have any relation to John W. Turner, a NESFAn? Perhaps
there is a giant J*T tapeworm loose on the net (if you are a
different JWT, I know of 4 people on the net with initials J*T).

                                        James M. Turner
                                        Software Engineer
                                        LISP Machine, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 6 April 1984, 18:20-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr at SCH-Gila>
Subject: high frame rates / strobing

>Date: 1 Apr 84 21:36:54-PST (Sun)

>From:hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!clyde!
>From: watmath!watcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax
>Subject: Re: high-speed film
>    ... With 60 frames/sec, motion would be a lot smoother.  Does
>it use a single-blade shutter in the projector?  That would get rid
>of the double-image effects seen when something moves rapidly.

I think Showscan uses a single bladed shutter.  The 60 hertz frame
rate does make the motion look better, higher sampling rates allows
higher frequencies in the motion with less noticable strobing.  On
the other hand, higher frame rates do not make the problem (temporal
aliasing) go away, any more than using more pixels (higher
resolution) on a display screen makes the "jaggies" (spatial
aliasing) go away.  It merely reduces the amplitude of the error.

BTW: the correct solution to the strobing problem is to use "long"
(on the order of a frame time) "time exposures" to allow the image
to integrate, to properly blur on the film.  Unfortunatly for real
cinematographers, this means that the camera must do its
close-shutter/pull- down-film/open-shutter cycle in zero time (a
mechanical impossibility).  And in fact, preferably the exposure
periods of two sequential frames would overlap to some extent (sort
of a "cross dissolve") which -- since the camera has only one frame
behind the lens at a time -- is a logical impossiblity.

Luckily, this is not a problem for people who make movies by
computer simulation...

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 84 6:11:53-PST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!un
From: m-cvax!unmvax!genix!ldl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: high speed film

  Trumbell was on CBS Nightwatch (?)  within the last couple of
weeks.  He stated that the Showscan 'technique' had the following
principles (to increase emotional response, etc):

  - High action (No shots of people getting into/out of cars,
    walking down alleys, etc)
  - Double 'brilliance' of the 'large' (for the room) screen, thus
    making 'daylight' look more authentic (i.e. you can see people in
    the room with you almost as clearly as if the lights are on)

I got the impression that the approach was to pack as much action
into a 20-30 minute movie as you'd have in a normal 90-120 minute
movie, and not so much on the fact that the film was going so much
faster.  The faster 'sprocket' rate allowed for better 'realism' on
the brighter lighting, but otherwise wasn't supposedly as important
as the content.  The MAIN effect was derived from the telling of the
story.  He went on to say that it will be impossible to expect the
Showscan technology to end up in regular theaters due to the
extremely high prices of the new technology. (The technology of 95%
-- his number -- of the theaters is the same as it was when the
studios were forced to 'divest' the theaters in the 1950's(?date?)
Hmm, wonder what this means for the Bell companies?)  He lamented
the fact that many of the 'Cinerama' theaters (of the 60's) had been
'chopped up' into smaller 35mm theaters; meaning that even the
'Cinerama' technology wasn't around (much) anymore.

  I called the local Showbiz Pizza and they didn't know anything
about the Showscan idea.  Hmm, maybe I should load up the family and
visit my wife's sister (near Dallas).

Spoken: Larry Landis
USnail: 5201 Sooner Trail  NW
        Albuquerque, NM 87120
MaBell: (505)-898-9666    USA
  UUCP: {ucbvax,gatech,parsec}!unmvax!genix!ldl

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 13:07:33-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "Showscan" / high frame rate film projection

The first Showscan theatre is now open in Dallas with a 30 minute
presentation for $3.00.  Three additional theatres are to open
shortly (Huntsville, AL, somewhere in Virginia, and California).

These theatres are adjacent to some sort of large pizza restaurants.
If the idea clicks at the boxoffice, then we can look forward to
seeing more Showscan venues and more Showscan films.

                                        -Eric Carter
                                         AT&T-IS Morristown, NJ
                                         abnjh!cbspt005

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 84 12:28:48 EST
From: DELTUVIA@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Spock didnt have to die...

        I was watching ST II again the other day, and a method of
saving the Enterprise without Spock's death occured to me.  Kirk
wanted to beam aboard Reliant and shut off the machine, but David
said it couldn't be shut off.  -Remember the ST TV episode with
'Jack the Ripper'?  They got rid of him by beaming him out at
'maximum dispersion' so that he was disin- tegrated.  Why couldn't
they do that to Genesis?? Beam it aboard, then out into the nebula,
disintegrated?? Did Captain Spock die in vain?

-John Deltuvia

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 13:45:24-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!45223wc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Princess Who?

    In Star Wars, (the original SW movie), right at the beginning
when the princess' ship is under attack, C3PO says something like
'The princess will never get out of this one O.K.' , but later when
Luke sees part of the video message of the princess and asks C3PO
who that is, C3PO says he doesn't know, but that he thinks she was a
passenger on the ship.  So does C3PO know her or not?
    - Bill (and Mary) Cambre   ATTISL 02272   houxe!45223wc

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 13:45:55-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!45223wc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Speed of Death Star

     Why is it in Star Wars, (the original), the death star take 30
minutes to go half way around one little planet.  It certainly
wouldn't be able to get around the galaxy very well at that slow
speed.  If you say it goes everywhere by jumping through hyperspace,
doesn't it seem odd that they can make it do that, but can't get it
to go any faster at sub-light speeds?
  As a side note, with all that power why spend a half hour going
around a planet while under attack, why not just blow the planet to
bits, then blow the rebel base on the moon to bits, too?
       - Bill Cambre    ATTISL 02272    houxe!45223wc

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 15:35:39-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!flinn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star

Why it took half an hour to go around the planet - I just presumed
that the Death Star was in orbit around the planet, in which case
its velocity would depend on the mass of the planet and its
altitude.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #60
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Apr 84 1950-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #60
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:
      Books - May & May 1984 Analog & Author Request Answered,
      Films - Upcoming Movies (3 msgs) & Star Wars (9 msgs),
      Miscellaneous - Psychic Powers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 84 18:48:14 est
From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
Subject: The Many Colored Land (Julian May), etc.

After reading something favorable in sf-lovers about the first book,
I've managed to read the whole series. It turns out there are four:
        The Many Colored Land
        The Golden Torc
        The Nonborn King
and     The Adversary.

I got an imported copy of The Adversary a few days ago. If you like
the post-introduction part of TMCL, you should enjoy the other three
books.  They're fun to read and interesting, too. There was a little
blurb at the end of The Adversary mentioning a trilogy which takes
place before TMCL (which means it takes place a little under 6
million years after most of the action). There were also a couple of
threads in the last book which could be expanded upon. I hope the
new books are out soon!
                                        - John Romkey
                                          romkey@mit-borax

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 17:25:42-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!mcnc!philabs!aecom!yudelson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog*  < Nuclear flames

> Date: Wed, 28-Mar-84 00:04:26 EST
> I hereby nominate the editorial staff of *Analog* magazine, and
> the two authors of the story "Valentina" (my copy is at home,
> otherwise I would name names; I *had* regarded both of them
> highly) for the uncoveted
>                 [1632 bytes deleted] OF THE YEAR AWARD in the
> category of uncalled-for `ethnic' slurring.

> Their crime, for those of you fortunate enough not to have read
> the article, is protraying all "hackers" as (1) self-centered, (2)
> anti- social, (3) criminal, (4) ignorant of hygiene, (5) having
> numerous personality defects, and undoubtably several other
> dubious traits I have been too incised to notice.

> It was, pure and simple, a gratuitous groin kick at "hackers."

> Finally, I have included "hackers" in quotes because neither the
> authors or editors seem to understand what a hacker is, even
> though they used the term quite liberally....

> Finally, I should mention that the [85 bytes deleted] lawyer was
> also portrayed in highly undesirable tones.  As in, he likes
> little girls, enjoys power trips, has no self-confidence behind a
> Machivelli exterior,

> so, does anyone else feel the same way I do?  Does anyone have the
> phone number of *Analog*'s editor?  I don't feel like a hate
> letter, I want a real live "responible" person on the other end to
> shout at!

> bruce giles

        I forwarded this letter to Shelly Frier, the assistant
editor of Analog.  She pointed out that one of the authors in a
computer programmer.  The other is a lawyer.

        I haven't seen the May issue yet, so I can't comment on the
story, but I remember that Stan Schmidt, the editor, has written in
the past about readers assuming that since the villain in the story
is Jewish or Italian or a hacker, the authors and editors think that
all Jews or Italians or hackers are wicked people who are
self-centered, criminal, anti-social deviants who don't bathe
regularly.

        Actually, from your logic, you would be even more offended
if the criminals were portrayed as responsible graduate students who
had good hygene.  That would imply that you were criminal--a far
more difficult accusation to disprove than (you are a criminal &&
you have bad hygene).

        Actually, from my experience as editor of a (non-s.f.)
magazine, I would make all my villains readers who can't read
straight and then write in nasty letters.

                                                Larry Yudelson
"Beware the Frumiest Bandersnatch!"        philabs!aecom!yudelson

p.s. The views expressed are my own.  They are not (necessarily) the
views of Shelly Frier, Stan Schmidt, the secretaries in the Analog
office, Davis Publications, or even the AECOM computer center.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 20:52:58-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: here's the title, who's the author?

To Steven A. Swernofsky:

(1) ROADSIDE PICNIC is by Arkady & Boris Strugatsky.

(2) The "Pelbar Cycle" is by Paul O. Williams [incidentally, a sixth
book in the series is due out about the end of May].

(3) THE SYNDIC is by C. M. Kornbluth.

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
<"Bibliography is       UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
  my business">         ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 12:55:58-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: MOVIE RELEASE SCHEDULE

Conan II has been retitled 'CONAN THE DESTROYER', stars Arnold
Schwarzenegger (of course), Wilt Chamberlain and Grace Jones(!) and
opens July 6.

Supergirl starring Faye Dunaway, Peter O'Toole, Mia Farrow and
introducing Helen Slater in the title role has been pushed back a
week to July 13.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 1984 22:45:55 PST
Subject: Time Bandits Sequel and FireStarter
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

According to the May issue of Moviegoer magazine (freebee mag):

George Orwell meets Monty Python occurs in Terry Gilliam's new film,
"Brazil."  This film is supposedly the second film in the Time
Bandits trilogy.  It is set in a society ruled by the Ministry of
Information, a Big Brother style bureaucracy which supposedly exists
in Christmas, 1984 (which is when the film is scheduled for
release).  "Brazil" stars Michael Palin, Ian Holm, Katherine
Helmond, and a cameo by Robert De Niro.

In true Pythonesque fashion, the film has nothing to do with South
America.

Also, Stephen King's Firestarter (which is really more of a science
fiction novel than horror) is being made into a movie, the lead role
is being played by Drew Barrymore.  It is currently being filmed.

                                Alan

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 10:11:45 EST
From: Ed Blanchett <Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Movie: Lord of the Rings, Part II

Has anyone heard about what's become of the sequel to The Lord of
the Rings movie? I heard some rumors about a year ago that there was
some work done on it and that it was to be released soon, yet they
seemed to have died (along with any prospect of the sequel). Quite a
pity, the first one looked so promising...

"Oh, Master Frodo, don't let him turn me into something unnatural!"
-Ed Blanchett

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 84 22:05:02-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star

It is generally not a good idea to "blow to bits" the object around
which you are in close orbit.  The Death Star kept a good distance
from Organa, you recall. But they were actually in orbit around the
Rebel Base's primary.

Also, presumably, maneuver drive is Newtonian, while interstellar
drive isn't.  There is a substantial technology difference between
them. Just because you can go fast in one mode doesn't mean you can
go fast in another.
                                                -- Allan Pratt
                                        ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!apratt

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 84 7:18:21-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star

Alderaan.  Calling it Organa is like calling Great Britain "Tudor".

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 84 7:33:51-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Princess Who?

It is possible that C3PO knew that Leia was aboard without having
met her.
                                -The Parker Hobbit
                                 a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri

UUCP:           {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit
                decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit
ARPA & CSNET:   hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 84 5:49:54-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Force Field

My impression is that the previous writer (Allan Pratt?) implied the
reason the force field must be "projected" was some law of physics,
not the particular technology.  Surely we must assume that physical
laws are the same everywhere and everywhen (at least in our
universe...), otherwise this whole discussion is pointless.  So if
Kirk et al can do it, the Empire can as well.

                                SJBerry

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 84 22:43:27-PST (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!smu!clardy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Endor and the Death Star

How about this:
   The shield generator was the first thing built. To protect the
new Death Star while under construction. As to why the generator
wasn't built in space in the first place, well...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 19:13:34-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!intelca!proper!dual!fair @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Endor and the Death Star

        From: disc@houxz.UUCP (S.BERRY)
        Date: Fri, 30-Mar-84 07:13:49 PST

        I don't recall the starship Enterprise ever having to drag a
        planet everywhere they go in order to use their deflector
        shields...
                                        SJBerry

Clearly, the Federation has better shield technology. Or the death
star power system was not yet up to powering the thing & the planet
zapper...

        Erik E. Fair

        dual!fair@Berkeley.ARPA
        {ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!fair
        Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, California

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 19:22:06-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!intelca!proper!dual!fair @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star - (nf)

Larry Niven's Known Space series has a Hyperspace, and Hyperdrive,
and there is the small problem with it:

You can't use it within some arbitrary distance of ANY gravity well.

It is possible that the Hyperdrive in the SW Universe has the same
limitation.  This would tend to explain some of the time that Han
Solo took to `make the jump to lightspeed' in SW:ANH after leaving
Mos Eisley in a hurry, pursued by Imperial Cruisers.

        Erik E. Fair

dual!fair@Berkeley.ARPA
{ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!fair
Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, California

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 84 11:00:49-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!fpa @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Obi-wans brother?

What movie did I miss that one in.  Who is Owen Lars?  Excuse my
ignorance, but I don't remember.  Please enlighten me. (and others,
I presume) I've only seen The Empire Strikes Back once, so maybe
that's it.

I agree with Hutch about Princess Who?

I think c3po knew the Princess well, and was protecting the rebel
alliance by belittling the importance of the hologram.

                - Fred P. Andresen (fpa@cvl)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 17:43:36 PST (Monday)
From: Morrill.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Princess Who?

I read the book "Skywalking, The Life and Films of George Lucas" in
which Lucas explains that C3P0 is programmed for security.
Therefore, even though C3P0 may act dumb (uninformed) at times, it is
just an act.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 1984 1139-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: psychic powers

     It sounds like "The Tomorrow People" makes the same mistake
that a lot of authors do in visualizing what a superior being would
be like.  They seem to think that some form of psychic powers are
the next step up.  Stapledon's Odd John had them, many of Heinlein's
heros have them, and even ET can levitate rubber balls.  I actually
heard some movie reviewer saying that that scene proved that ET had
an Einstein-class intellect.  These people are confused about what
makes humanity different from the other animals.
     Let's look at some of the common psychic abilities.
Telekinesis, the ability to move objects at a distance, would be a
nice thing to have.  No more getting up from your chair to turn off
the stereo.  But it's actually just an extension of your hands.
Instead of having to manipulate things with these crude fingers you
would handle them directly with your mind.  Why is that likely to be
a better way to do things?  If you want to lift heavy objects, use a
forklift.  If you want to move things at a distance, use a piece of
string.  Do you think that you would be more dextrous if there
weren't these clumsy nerve cables between you and the piano?  Your
central nervous system is full of unconscious processing to help you
move your muscles.  If you had to consciously think of each step
involved you would be unable to lift the lid of the keyboard, much
less play Bach sonatas.
     In a similar way, teleportation is an extension of your feet.
Instead of walking somewhere you fly or Jaunt (to use Bester's
term).  Clairvoyance is an extension of your eyes.  You can see
things which are otherwise hidden.  Microscopes let you do that too,
though.  Germanium detectors let you see in the infrared, and
photographic plates in the Xrays.  This amazing power of
clairvoyance lets you do rather less than can already be done with
commonly available technology.
     In any case, hands, feet and eyes are not what has brought us
to where we are.  Other animals have the same or better (well, maybe
not quite in the case of hands.  Man is the only animal that
juggles).  The main reason that we are not just another minor
primate is that we have the ability to communicate and cooperate and
the ability to learn.  There's only one psychic ability that would
affect that, and so it's the only one that I think would be
worthwhile.  That's telepathy.  Telepathy is an extension of the
power of speech, and speech is mainly what makes us human.  Just
having a voice provides an incredible increase in communication
bandwidth between individuals.  The direction-indicating dance of
the honey bee contains perhaps a couple of bits per second of
information whereas the human voice contains hundreds or perhaps
thousands of bits per second (Modern voice compression techniques
can get it down to about a thousand bps with reasonable fidelity).
Extend that bandwidth again to where people can send whole images to
one another (which takes hundreds of thousands of bits per second)
instead of just words and you've got a qualitative change in the
species.
     There's one other aspect of telepathy that would cause real
changes in people. Direct mind to mind communication could eliminate
the ability to lie.  Compare the social impact of that with the
effect of being able to remotely lift rubber balls!

John Redford
VLSI @ Market

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #61
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 84 1646-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #61
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Apr 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:
         Books - Hubbard & Analog (2 msgs) & Book Request,
         Films - Tarzan & Star Wars (5 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - FTL & Laws of Physics & Psychic Powers & A Quote

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 131351.62.735 IDT
Reply-to: POSTMASTER.IGPU-TERRA-STATION.IGPU@RUTGERS.ARPA
Cc: Enforcement@IGPU-TERRA-STATION.TERRA.SECTOR2.IGPU
From: Legal-affairs@IGPU-TERRA-STATION.TERRA.SECTOR2.IGPU
Subject: Messages relating to L. Ron Hubbard on SF-LOVERS mailing list

As you may know, it is a violation of the tarriffs of the IGPU to
send libelous material through the Intergalactic mails.  We believe
that similar laws also exist for the more primitive media used to
distribute SF-LOVERS on its planet of origin.  On several occasions
recently, we have observed assertions concerning the motives of one
L. Ron Hubbard.  For reference, I include representative samples:

        Hubbard was quoted, once, long before he started the
        scientology thing, as saying (at an SF convention, I
        believe)

        And whether or not he really said it, ... is atttributed to
        him.  He also suckered his friend, ...

        I can't remember where I read it, but Hubbard is supposed to
        have said at some con,

We have no objections to correspondents expressing half-baked ideas
about the literary merits of various works.  However we have strong
objections to the use of our facilities for distributing personal
attacks based upon vague rumors.  This is a clear violation of
section II.20.16 of the Universal Canons of Behavior upon which our
organization is based.  I quote: "You shall not accuse anyone
falsely."  Previous decisions by the Intergalactic Mediation Service
are very clear on this point: An accusation may be considered to be
false if the person making it has no proof of it.  The inclusion of
qualifiers such as "supposed to have said" is not a defense.  Many
of the most vicious rumors are couched in language such as this.
The fact that you do not approve of someone's viewpoint is not a
defense either.  Fairness is required most when dealing with someone
of whom you do not approve.

We hereby advise, warn, and admonish you that any further messages
of this sort, directed against Mr. Hubbard, or any other being, will
be forwarded to our Enforcement Bureau for immediate action.

              - Legal affairs officer
                Terra Station
                Intergalactic Postal Union

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 84 15:51:07-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog*  < Nuclear flames

After I cooled down somewhat (to put it mildly), I had grabbed the
previous month's issue and discovered exactly what you mentioned:
the authors were a lawyer and a computer scientist.

Furthermore, I have read *Analog* for a number years, and am aware
of their views on sterotyping.

However, I feel that the situation concerning "hackers" falls into
an entirely different category.  *I* personally perceive the term
"hacker" as being a sterotype.  But I am also aware that many
*others* do not perceive the word as a sterotype.

Instead, it is new expression which does not yet have a universal
meaning.

When I am called a "hacker" by fellow graduate students at UCF, I
take it as a compliment.  In this environment it implies I have a
strong interest in computers.

However, when a local reporter interviewed me as a "hacker", she was
looking for computer criminals.  The possibility of my interest in
computers being purely `scientific' did not appear to have occured
to her.

So, I would have WELCOMED the malevolent "hackers" in the story
being well-groomed, polite, al nauseam.  It would have given the
term some depth.  After all, if not "hackers" are ill-groomed,
perhaps not all "hackers" are out to destroy the world.

The other point (which got buried) was that there was a logical
inconsistency with having the male hacker dress/act in the manner
he did.  I can not conceive of any highly prestigious firm employing
people who meet their clients dressed like they just crawled out of
a sewer.  How would you feel if you went to a car dealership and was
greated by someone with a 3-day beard and filthy sweatclothes,
with no one else in site.  (That was a typo (but a good one)... it
should be `in sight').

Would you feel like parting with your hard-earned cash then?

The female hacker and the lawyer were also offensive to me, but to a
large extent that was triggered by the anger I felt concerning the
male hacker.  When I stop a story in the middle, and ask myself if
(*) has any relevance to the story, and it still wonder why the
author(s) included (*) by the time I finish the story; then I
strongly believe the author(s) should have left it out.  As I
mentioned in the original article, I felt that the characters'
shortcomings were gratuitous, and this was the criteria I used.

I may have entirely misread the story, but I know that in the
approximately 10 years that I have been reading *Analog*, none have
made me as furious over what seemed to be meaningless reasons.

ave discordia                   going bump in the night ...
bruce giles

decvax!ucf-cs!giles             university of central florida
giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay         orlando, florida 32816

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 84 09:35:58 PST (Wednesday)
From: Ayers.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Analog Magazine versus Physics

Dear flamer on the May *Analog* for the use of ethnic stereotypes:

I thought that the reply in V9#60 on steretypes was quite to the
point.

You should have complained about the ignorance of the laws of
physics in the April (perhaps March -- copies not here) issue!

Now there was a disgrace for a "science fact and fiction" magazine!
The main story-line required the group of people inside an adrift,
non-rotating, satellite to make it face the other way. Someone
figures out that he can run around the inside of the satellite. They
do this, crawling, then running, and then they stop, LEAVING THE
SATELLITE WITH A NET ROTATIONAL VELOCITY.

So much for the recent net articles about Oberth wheels.

So much for the conservation of angular momentum.

So much for the physics talents of the Analog editors.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 84 7:41:35-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Who wrote the MED series?

  Could someone please refresh my memory and tell me who the author
of the MED series is?  Thanks in advance.

Ken Varnum
  (decvax!dartvax!kenv)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 84 17:07:41 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: NEVER GO APE (Greystoke -- *NON-SPOILER*)
To: movies@BBN-UNIX

I highly recommend the new "tarzan" movie GREYSTOKE, as both a
movie-goer and an sf lovers.

A lot of money was spent, successfully -- a surprising feat.

I'm not going to bother going into long detail here.

Good color/images/composition, etc.  Good detail.  Adequate acting.
Lovely sets and locales.

I was reminded at times of THE BLACK STALLION, for the long
non-verbal sequences, and NEVER CRY WOLF, for the human:non-human
and non-human:non-human interactions.

As a science fiction person of long addiction, I did NOT find myself
at any point offended by unreasonable stupidities a la SPACE:1999,
CONAN THE BARBARIAN, etc.  Rather, it had that undefinable essence
shared by STAR TREK II, THE LAST UNICORN (otherwise problematic, I
admit) of being done by people who understood the subject matter and
cared about it enought to do it well.

The movie departs markedly from the original TARZAN book.  I think
this was a wise move.  (I have the feeling this is somehow based on
Phillip Jose Farmer's "biography" of "the man the Tarzan books were
based on".  They never call him Tarzan, by the way.)

Lots of humorous touches throughout, clearly deliberate.

NOTE: I attended with an 11-year old girl.  She was somewhat
troubled by the realism of the bloodier ape-killing sequences -- on
a humanitarian, queasy basis, apparantly, as she has sat through
ROCKY III, or FRIDAY THE 17th, or whatever, without comparable
discomfort.  So it is not necessarily for children of all ages.

But it is an honest film, given that -- there is no gratuitious sex
or violence, and it is clear that the violent stuff is painful and
not pleasant to the violentee.

By the way, those big greyish looking critters tromping around the
Greystoke castle are Scottish deerhounds, and the smaller ones
appear to be puppies of same.

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 84 8:31:48-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

You didn't miss anything. No where in the movies do they tell you
that Lars was Obi Wan's brother. That little bit of information came
out in the novelization of Return of the Jedi and there's really no
excuse for it. The question should be: Why is it in science fiction
movies lately you have to buy the book to fully appreciate what went
on on the screen?  I can think of several examples. Maybe 2001 set a
bad example.

Steve Alexander
cmaz504 at ut-ngp

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 84 9:21:04-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!psuvax!kucharic @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: princess who?

Princess who?
   I agree with all the previous suggestions about C3PO trying to
protect the princess and the rebelion, but consider this:
  Perhaps C3PO knew he was on the Princess' ship, but didn't know
who the princess was or what she looked like.  This would explain
the comment about the ship, and why he didn't know the vision in the
hologram.  It's only a suggestion....

                   Frank Kucharik
                   The Pennsylvania State University
                   (..allegra!psuvax!kucharic)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 1984  09:48 EST (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Princess Who?

        It's not Princess Who, it's Doctor Who (sorry).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 84 11:28:03 EST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Death Star shields...
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Xerox.ARPA>

Deja vu is the feeling that you've been somewhere, done something,
or seen someone before, even though you are supposedly experiencing
it for the first time....

About a year ago, there was a discussion about why the shield
generator was on the ground as opposed to the Death Star.  The
following opinions were advanced:

(1) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of ninnies.

(2) The shield also acts to hold the Death Star in an artificially
low gesynchronous orbit so the construction can be more easily
gotten to (it's closer to the planet/moon).

(3) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of dopes.

(4) It enables you to install the shields/drives on the Death Star
at leisure, rather than first thing.

(5) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of cavemen.

(6) It was necessary for the plot.

Any way, the Enterprise and the Death Star are not necessarily from
the same Universe (SW doesn't have transporters either...)

                                        Chris

        Deja vu is the feeling that you've been somewhere, done
        something, or seen someone before, even though you are
        supposedly experiencing it for the first time....

        About a year ago, there was a discussion about why the
        shield generator was on the ground as opposed to the Death
        Star.  The following opinions were advanced:

        (1) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of ninnies.

        (2) The shield also acts to ....

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 11 Apr 1984 10:44-PST
Subject: Re: Princess Who?
From: christe@Rand-Unix

C3PO knows all about the princess, the Rebellion, and Captain
Antilles, by the time the 'droids are sold to Luke's Uncle Owen
Lars.  He mentions Antilles by name, and he sees R2D2 and the
princess together during the battle when she is giving R2 his
mission.

C3PO lacks a certain amount of discretion in the scene in question.
Luke, cleaning up R2D2, remarks on the amount of "carbon-scoring" on
R2D2's body, and C3PO replies that he is not surprised, given what
the 'droids have been through in the Rebellion.  Luke swings around
to C3PO and says "You were in the Rebellion?", but before C3PO can
reply, R2D2 gives a long warning whistle.  Presumably he is telling
C3PO to shut up, because C3PO then makes the excuse that he doesn't
know much and isn't any good at telling stories (which is totally
false; he is the one who tells the Ewoks at length about the
Rebellion and Luke in "Return of the Jedi").

You gotta listen to what R2D2 says.  I am convinced that the
crooning whistle he gives when entering the long desert canyon (in
"Star Wars", just before the jawas get him) is "I have a bad feeling
about this".

--Christe

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 2149 EST (Monday)
From: Victor.Milenkovic@CMU-CS-A.ARPA
Subject: FTL and Time Travel Challenge

Can anyone tell me how I could use a FTL ship to travel back to 1950
or in any way cause a paradox?  I have tried playing with light
cones and transformations, but I can't see how to do it.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 84 2:30:12-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Laws of Physics

"E=MC^2 may only be a local phenomenon."

                        -- Albert Einstein
--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Apr 84 23:33:27 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: psychic powers

I don't agree that all psychic powers but telepathy need be mere
parlor tricks.  Effective teleportation, for instance, would have an
enormous impact on society, as Bester demonstrated in "The
Demolished Man".  Consider the problem of incarcerating teleporters.
Also consider the impact on all transportation industries.  What is
the meaning of a national boundary when you cannot prevent anyone
from crossing it at will, and without even the ability to detect
them?  Talk about illegal aliens!  If every person in third world
countries could teleport, think of the ramifications for
industrialized countries.  They would have to do something to stop
it, and the only truly effective means would be to make their states
so regularized that they could immediately and ruthlessly deal with
unwanted visitors, or to make the potential immigrants want to stay
at home, by improving conditions there.  How do you prevent
burglaries and other intrusions into private/security areas?  This
only scratches the surface of what can be done with a transportation
medium which does not leave the subject in recognizable form as he
goes from here to there, particularly if no equipment is needed.

By the way, I do agree that it is hogwash to assume that psychic
powers necessarily make for better people.  Telepathy might be an
exception here, as seeing another's thoughts may make one more
sensitive to others needs; but just because you can make little
balls float around the room doesn't mean that you're nice.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 11 Apr 1984 06:07:13-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Brendan E. Boelke)
Subject: "Once is a(n) ..."

        I'm not sure which came first (I have neither movie or album
here in my office for reference), but Arlo Guthrie in "Alice's
Restaurant" stated that if (doubt if quote is exact)

        If one person does, they'll call him crazy
                (and haul him away)
        If two people do it, they'll call them both crazy
                (and haul them away),
        But if THREE people do it, they'll call it a MOVEMENT!

                                /BEB

GIGI::BRENDAN
ECG.BEB@MARKET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #62
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 84 1247-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #62
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:
                           Administrivia
         Books - Adams & Hubbard & MacAvoy & May (2 msgs) &
                 Analog (4 msgs) & Med Series (2 msgs) & 
                 Author Request,
         Films - Time Bandits & Star Wars (7 msgs),
         Television - The Tomorrow People,
         Miscellaneous - A Plea for HHGttN

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 84 11:23:55 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

        As some of you may already be aware, the SF-LOVERS archives
at SRI-CSL were lost due to an unfortunate set of circumstances.  I
would like to put out an appeal to anyone out there who may have
copies of the archives before V7 to get in touch with me.  I hope
these issues are not irretrievably lost.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Apr 1984 18:50:00-PST
From: horovitz%yoda.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA
Subject: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFF????

yes Douglas Adams fans, his new book The Meaning of Liff is in the 
stores in hardcover for $7.95 .  He co-wrote this book with an author
I can't remember.

n.l.h.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 13:26:00-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard

Charles Platt's "interview"* with L. Ron gives fair evidence that
the old boy is still with us. Platt was convinced. Seems like I
heard a rumor that LRH was going to disinherit his son or some such
for starting the "Hubbard's dead" thing, too.

* In *Dream Makers II*
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: Mon 9 Apr 84 18:35:06-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Damiano's Lute.

I am now reading Damiano's Lute, the second in a trilogy by R.A.  
MacAvoy, author of Tea With the Black Dragon. It's about a lutist 
named Damiano, living in Renaissance Italy. He's a "witch", and his 
lute instructor is the Archangel Raphael. Don't go away! There is a 
reasonable plot, and though Damiano is still a bit of a simp, the 
writing is well done, and the characters have some depth. If you read
her first novel and found it interesting but lacking literary depth,
as I did, you will be pleasantly surprised by the Damiano trilogy. If
MacAvoy can continue to improve her prose at this rate, she'll be one
of the most noted writers of the coming few years. I have read so
little that was really well done this year, that at present she has my
Hugo vote.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 84 18:27:00-EST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hp-dcde!jack @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response

orstcs!nathan says:
        Julian May's gender is male.
        Julian May's sex is (I am told) undeniably female.

        If you can't figure out the difference, go back to
        grammar school.

My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1979) lists "SEX" as the
first definition of "gender".  I'm sure that Nathan has some subtle
distinction in mind, but if you don't tell us, Nathan, what good
have you done?  And keep the insults ("go back to grammar school")
to yourself, please.
                                        -Jack Applin
                                        (hplabs!hp-dcd!jack)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 9 Apr 84 18:35:06-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Many-Colored Land.

The Many-Colored-Land series is in fact a tetralogy; The Adversary is
the fourth book. The Adversary has not yet come out in American 
paperback, but it is available at bookstores that carry those Pan 
editions. I found the ending to be somewhat of a let-down after 
expecting some incredible tieing up of loose ends, but the action is 
still good.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 84 16:38:04 PST (Wednesday)
From: GMeredith.es@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #61 May 1984 *Analog*  < Nuclear flames

The story in question reads like juvenile material in that it
requires a MAJOR suspension of disbelief if for no other reason
(character development, etc.).

The authors would have the reader buy a subculture of brilliant
'hackers' who could accomplish any miracle if they just felt like
putting down their games for a while or did not compete within their
group, both of which are strictly for ego.

This leads to the idea that full AI is actually just a minor project
and once produced by one 'hacker' may be understood a la Gestalt by
another 'hacker'.

Interesting flight of fantasy, perhaps, but not easy to swallow as
adult fiction.

Guy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 84 11:39:53 EST
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: re: hackers

this certainly isn't the right place for this argument, but the word
hacker was not originally complementary and some people (like me)
don't see why it should be.  programming is like whittling.  the guy
who whittles by slashing at a two-by-four with a hatchet is a
hacker.  the phrase "hack writer" comes to mind.  they program all
night because it takes them that long to get the job done.  and
everything they write looks like it was written by somebody who had
been awake for 48 hours.  they never bother to learn to program,
they just program.  most are more interested in pulling pranks and
otherwise irriting people than doing any useful programming.  THAT's
a hacker, and just because the word's gotten a lot of press doesn't
make it any better.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 84 9:35:07-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!mlh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog*  < Nuclear flames

I read and enjoyed "Valentina".  The characters were both
interesting and entertaining.  Use of hackers and a lawyer as
criminals and warped personalities in no way indicates that all
hackers and lawyers are such.  I see no reason for Giles to be
offended; he apparantly didn't understand the story.  I've known
both lawyers and hackers like the characters, but that doesn't mean
I see them all that way.

Good story!

Mike Holt
abnjh!mlh

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@Xerox.ARPA
Date: 12 Apr 84 15:11:51 EST
Subject: rip analog

lordy, you folks ought to know better than to get bent out of shape
by anything you read in analog.  i gave it up for lost when bova
published "minotaur in a mushroom maze" seven or eight years ago.
as long as a tale feels right to stanley, he'll print it.  the
satellite spinup was a kind of a surprise, tho...

and as for hackers...well, consider that the media needs a word for
"computer criminal."  the press has pretty much decided on "hacker,"
and the press will have its way.  after all, the press decided that
three mile island was a "disaster" even though nobody got hurt, and
decided that nuclear power was too dangerous to develop, even though
it's never probably injured anyone.

the word "hacker" will quickly drop out of legitimate use, just as
"gay" vanished from use (as in "lighthearted") twelve or fifteen
years ago.  for a replacement word i recommend "mxyptlk," which was
a mischievous sprite in old superman mags.  reporters lack
sufficient smarts to spell anything that subtle.

the cost of a free press is..a free press.

jeff duntemann
duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 23:16:36-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re Med series

char *foo;
Ken,

If you mean the med series with Calhoun and Murgatoyd (sp?) the
tormal -- that was Murray Leinster.

If you mean the series featuring Sector General hospital -- that was
James White

If you mean the series featuring Hospital Earth (and the Black
Doctors of pathology etc) -- that was Alan E. Nourse.

Ted Nolan                               usceast!ted 6536 Brookside
Circle
Columbia, SC 29206                      (feather the rast!)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 84 12:38:35 EST
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: The Med Series

The Med Series was written by Murray Leinster, author of many
classics such as the short-story "First Contact".  The Med Series
consists of three books, and were recently re-issued (about a year
or so ago) by (I think) Ace Books for about $2.95 for all three in
one volume.

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 84 21:38:24-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxr!sbg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Have Title - Need Author

Does anyone know who wrote, "The Last Batter is Out"?  This is a
very amusing novel about baseball in the 21st Century.  I'd really
like to read this one again. Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Apr 84 21:23:48-EST
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Time Bandits

In a recent digest, someone commented about the "Time Bandits"
trilogy.

Say what?
                        Jacob Butcher, deep within the Zone

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 0:44:33-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

<Swing that Lightsaber, Ben!>

Sorry to mystify them what ain't completely Star Warped.

Owen Lars is Luke's Uncle Owen.  Uncle Owen who raised him on
Tatooine.  This was revealed in the book version of Retread of the
Jedi.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 84 13:12:35-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!teklds!hercules!archiel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

I think that Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers, and Darth/Anakin and
Luke's aunt (Owen's wife) are brother and sister.  This would not
make Obi-wan Luke's uncle, just his uncle's brother.  I'm not very
sure about all this, however.  Could somebody who has read the book
please try and clean this up?  Thanks in advance.

                                Archie Lachner
                                Logic Design Systems Division
                                Tektronix, Inc.

uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!archiel
CSnet: archiel@tek
ARPAnet: archiel.tek@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 10:59:49-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxv!mwh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

        If Owen Lars is Obi-wans brother then is Luke Obi-wans
nephew because Luke calls Owen "Uncle Owen"?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 19:44:59-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!infopro!dave @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

I think someone out there is approaching the truth of the matter.
If Owen Lars was Luke's uncle, he was therefore the brother of
Luke's father, and therefore of Darth Vader. If Obi-Wan was also
Owen's brother, then Obi-Wan was ALSO Darth's brother, and also
therefore Luke's uncle. I think Owen was Darth-Anakin's brother,
PERIOD, and there was no family connection with Obi-Wan.
Proofreaders have been known to make mistakes, you know...

"That's the biz, sweetheart..."
          Dave Fiedler
{harpo,astrovax,philabs}!infopro!dave

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 84 9:03:30-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!teklds!hercules!archiel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

It is not necessary for Owen to be Darth's brother to be Luke's
uncle.  I seem to remember something in the film that indicated that
Luke's father was his Aunt Berue's brother (something in the
breakfast-table dialog between Owen and Berue).  I'm not sure this
is the case, but the possibility is being overlooked by others
discussing this matter.  Owen could be Luke's uncle by marriage only
and not by blood.
                                Archie Lachner
                                Logic Design Systems Division
                                Tektronix, Inc.

uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!archiel
CSnet: archiel@tek
ARPAnet: archiel.tek@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 84 10:35:27-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!kobold!tjt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

Dave Fiedler (infopro!dave) says:

    If Owen Lars was Luke's uncle, he was therefore the brother of
    Luke's father, and therefore of Darth Vader. If Obi-Wan was also
    Owen's brother, then Obi-Wan was ALSO Darth's brother, and also
    therefore Luke's uncle.

Come now! Think!  Owen Lars could also be Luke's uncle by being
*married* to the sister of Luke's father. i.e.

                ???                  ??? Skywalker
                 |                       |
        -----------------         ---------------
        |               |         |             |
     Obi-Wan        Owen Lars == Beru         Anakin == ???
                                                      |
                                                -------------
                                                |           |
                                              Luke        Leia

Owen could also be the brother of Luke's mother, the husband of
Luke's mother's sister, ...

Tom Teixeira,  Massachusetts Computer Corporation.  Westford MA
...!{ihnp4,harpo,decvax}!masscomp!tjt   (617) 692-6200 x275

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 84 06:37 MST
From: Dickson.Scouting@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA (Paul W. Dickson)
Subject: Re: The speed of the Deathstar and more

Since all Sci-Fi most probably takes place in alternate universes,
the laws of nature don't have to conform to those we understand. For
all we know, there could be other laws, one which we could call
suspense. This new law could make tasks easier or harder, shorter or
longer depending on some outside force like a god (or
director/producer).

But let's try for a more plausible explanation.

The Deathstar came out of Hyperspace on the far-side of Yavin
because the center of gravity for the planetary system was between
Yavin and Yavin-4 (this is assuming that the other satellites of
Yavin were very minor). The beam weapon of the Deathstar must
consume vast amounts of energy (especially since the planets
destroyed, explode), so it must conserve energy and fire from a
stable orbit. This also implies that gravity wells interfere with
Hyperspace travel.

And on to the Deathstar Mk II.

This brings up a slight problem with RotJ. With the amount of power
available to the Deathstar, what happened to it? When the Deathstar
blew, only a small part went to the explosion. And if the Deathstar
had succeeded in destroying Endor, it would have gone up [or out]
with endor because of the close orbit of the Deathstar. But if the
Deathstar had full power when it blew, it would have seared the near
surface of Endor. Obviously, the Deathstar only had minimal power
available. Only enough to destroy some ships and a few hundred
(thousand?) square miles of planetary surface.

Odd thoughts:

     1) Could the blast of the Deathstar have been directed because
     of partial construction of the station (directed other than
     directly at or away from Endor?).

     2) A God (Director/Producer?) intervened and said it would happen
     as to follow a great plan known as a script.

                    -Paul Dickson
                     Dickson%pco@cisl

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Apr 1984 18:50:00-PST
From: horovitz%yoda.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA
Subject: The Tomorrow People

Question on the Tommorrow People, I have watched the show for a while
and I have not seen the Davison episode.  which is it???

n.l.h.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 84 1:16:55-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Plea for HHGttN - (nf)

        [ offering to the god of blank lines! ]

        Would it be possible for someone to MAIL me the text to The
Hitchhikers Guide to the Net. I had a copy, but I lost it.

                                Thanks
                                Thomas Ruschak
                                pur-ee!kechkayl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #63
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Apr 84 1256-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #63
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Apr 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:
                           Administrivia,
            Books - Clarke & Clough & Herbert & MacAvoy,
            Films - 70mm Film & Time Bandits & Star Wars,
            Miscellaneous - Psychic Powers (3 msgs) & 
                    Space Station Talk & If Three People (3 msgs) &
                    That Real Old Time Religion & HHGttN & FTL & 
                    Hackers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 84 11:55:11 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

        Thanks to all those who responded to my request for copies
of the missing SF-LOVERS archives.  The archives are now back on
line at SRI-CSL for volumes 1 - 6.  Volumes 7 and 8 can be found
here at Rutgers.  Back issues of the current volume may be obtained
by sending a request to sf-lovers-request@rutgers.
        Enjoy!

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 84 7:39:51-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!amd70!fortune!dsd!symplex!pat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

        I don't believe that 2001 is a fair example of "novels to
explain movies."  Arthur Clarke wrote a short story titled, I
believe, "THE SENTINEL" dealing with mankinds' meeting a
monolith-like object on the moon.  This inspired Stanley Kubrick to
envision a screenplay, which he & Clarke collaborated on.  The movie
inspired Clarke to write a much more complex & humanistic book (more
than the movie), which carried the same title as the movie.

                                Richard Patrick
                                Symplex Communications
                                ..!fortune!dsd!symplex!pat

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 16 Apr 1984 11:25-PST
Subject: "Damiano's Lute" and "The Crystal Crown"
From: obrien@Rand-Unix

        Several weeks ago I wandered into a bookstore looking for mind
candy to sustain me through a transcontinental flight.  I wound up
with a copy of "The Crystal Crown", by B. W. Clough, obviously a first
novel from DAW.  What a surprise!  This one's really good!  Plot,
characters, ideas, all goes together very well.  I'm looking forward
to more from this person, whoever he or she is.  Does anyone out there
in netland know anything about this person?  This one seems to have
come right out of the woodwork, and while it's not Hugo quality, it's
a sight better than most of the recent stuff.  Fans of AI may be
quietly amused.

                        Mike O'Brien
                        ARPA, CSNET: obrien@rand-unix
                        UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax!trwrb}!randvax!obrien

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Apr 84 12:45:14 PST
From: Mark Trumpler <trumpler@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Heretics of Dune

Heretics of Dune takes place about 3000 years after Leto II's fall.
The main characters are Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers, Tleilaxu
Masters (yes, we find out a bit more about that elusive people), and
a few people on Dune, now called Rakis.  There's the Priests of the
Divided God, and a young priestess who can control the (relatively)
stunted descendants of Leto II.  There is, of course, also a Duncan
Idaho ghola, but he's being raised by the BG, and trained by their
Bashar, an Atreides descendant who is about 300 years old.  There
are also a few "bad guys" from what's called the Scattering.  As you
can imagine, this rather large cast makes the story very complex.
There is the usual BG intrigue, not to mention that of the secretive
Tleilaxu.  The story jumps about, as it did in the previous books,
but with the large cast, and the fact that he uses flashbacks at
times, tends to make the whole thing a bit difficult.  On the whole,
it's a good book for Dune fans.

-+- Mark

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 16 Apr 1984 11:25-PST
Subject: "Damiano's Lute" and "The Crystal Crown"
From: obrien@Rand-Unix

        I also read and enjoyed "Damiano's Lute", by R. A. MacAvoy.  
Warning: it ends with a real punch in the gut.  The ending is so 
strong that I really don't know if I can recommend it or not.  On the
plus side, there is a character in there named MacFhoidhbhuidhe, who's
an Irish harper (about time: Bertie MacAvoy has been playing 
wire-strung Celtic harp for years).  You'll have a good laugh when you
finally figure out how to pronounce that name.

                        Mike O'Brien
                        ARPA, CSNET: obrien@rand-unix
                        UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax!trwrb}!randvax!obrien

------------------------------

Date: Mon 16 Apr 84 12:00:54-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: 70mm

Tron, as well as Brainstorm, was filmed in 70mm although a 70mm print
was never shown in the Boston area.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Apr 84 12:11:51-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Time Bandits

        Saw an ad for Brazil, the second movie in the Time Bandits
Trilogy the other night.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Apr 84 12:10:31-EST
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Deathstars

        It might not take very much energy to blow up a planet --
probably just enough to set up a chain reaction.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 1984  13:15 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@EE>
Subject: Psychic Powers

        I agree that psionics are not necessarily parlor tricks.
Sure they could be, but on the other hand, in a psionic society a
number of things that exist here to serve essentially the same
purpose may never get developed.
        I disagree strongly that psionics makes you a "good" person.
If a person is already "good" then he will probably remain so
(although what did they say about absolute power?), but suppose your
telepath happens to be a sadist?  It seems to me that telepathic
power will enhance that aspect of him, since he can now experience
other's pain directly...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Apr 84 04:04 EST
From: Bergman.SoftArts@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Psychic powers and evolution

There is a very interesting (and moderately old) book on this
subject named "SUNBURST".  I am not sure of the author's name, she
is a woman.  The book is set in a dump town, where the survivors of
a nuclear power plant disaster live (and their descendants).  Some
of these descendants have serious psychic powers.  They are also
juvenile delinquents.  Spoiler follows:

***************** SPOILER ********************************

The story unfolds from the viewpoint of a non-psi who is of the same
generation as the JDs, and who turns out to be a psi-null.
Eventually the theory is developed that psionic powers are an
evolutionary dead end, for much the same reasons advanced earlier in
this digest, INCLUDING telepathy, which is suggested as being a
holdover from being a herd animal.  The problem with telepathy being
that an excited telepath has trouble telling his own thoughts from
those of someone else, and also great difficulty in developing a
personality of his/her own while growing up.
            The true evolutionary step turns out to be the
main character (of course) whose name is Shandy, by the way,
and who in addition to not being psionic, also had an extended
childhood, is incredibly stable, very intelligent, and very
intuitive.

  --mike bergman
bergman.softarts@mit-multics

p.s.  When I find my copy, I'll post the author's name, if she
hasn't already been identified.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 84 00:50:01 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: psychic powers in Heinlein???

     The only Heinlein characters that I can remember having
'psychic powers' are the twins in Time for the Stars. They have
telepathy. I believe that I am rather familiar with Heinlein's
works...in all other cases that I remember, he clearly states that
any 'extra abilities' are either genetically inherited (speed,
dexterity, strength) or the product of thought and reasoning. Can
you be more specific as to which characters you are talking about?

RAH!!!
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 1984 18:22:49 PST
Subject: Space Station Talk in L.A. April 28
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>
To: bboard@USC-ISIF, bboard@USC-ECL, space@MIT-MC

(For Los Angeles people)
The next lecture in the OASIS/L5 lecture series is:

          SPACE STATION CONCEPTS

              George Butler

        Director of Advanced Programs
        McDonnell Douglas Astronautics

Kinsey Auditorium, California Museum of Science and Industry
7:00 pm, April 28, 1984 (Saturday)

The history and the future of the concept of having a permanently
manned US space station (which President Reagan asked for in his
State of the Union address) will be discussed.

We should also be showing the mission film of the last Space Shuttle
Mission (with great scenes of MMU backpack spacewalks).

Admission is free, the meeting starts at 7:00pm in the Kinsey
Auditorium of the California Musuem of Science and Industry, across
from USC and next to the Colosseum.

(Note: Our next scheduled speaker, Dr. Krafft Ehricke, who was to
        speak on May 19 had to cancel due to health reasons.
        Instead, we will be having Robert Salkeld talking on
        "Returning to the Moon." on the same day, still at Rockwell
        International.  I will send another notice out with details
        next month.)
                                Alan

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 84  21:30 EST (Wed)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: if three people do it...

It goes more like:

    If one person does, they'll think he's really sick and they
won't take him...
    And if two people do it (in harmony) they'll think they're both
faggots and they won't take either of them...
    And if three do it... they'll think it's an organization...
    And if 50 people... they'll think it's a movement...

        (The Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement...)

Cheers,
{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 13 Apr 1984 11:28:11-PST
From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Once is a ...

In the musical/movie 1776, John Adams said:

   "One useless man is a disgrace,
    Two are called a law firm, and
    Three or more become a Congress."

"Sit down, John"

Andy Vesper / DEC Maynard

Fri 13-Apr-1984 08:16 Maynard Time
-- Andy Vesper MLO 5-2/U12 DTN (22)3-9005

------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 84 10:44:53 est
Subject: Alice's Restaurant

>If one person does, they'll think he's crazy
>(and haul him away.....)

The correct quote is,

If one person does it, they'll think he's crazy, and they won't take
him.
If two people do it, they'll think they're both faggots, and they
        won't take either one of 'em.
If three people do it -- can you imagine, three people walkin' in,
        humming a bar of Alice's Restaurant, and walkin' out? --
        They'll think it's a movement.  And that's what it is.

                        Will Duquette
                        Claremont, CA

------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 84 22:46:42 est
Subject: That Real Old Time Religion

Now that we've had so much of that "Real Old Time Religion,"
howsabout some of that old "Real Time" religion?

For example,

        They revered ancient ENIAC,
        And sacrificed to UNIVAC.
        Now we sing our chants on VAX disk pack,
        And that's all right with me!

                        Will Duquette,
                        Claremont, CA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 84 19:14 EST
From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: HHGttN

HHGttN (Hitchhikers Guide to the Net) sounds like a useful thing --
does one also want to ask for it?

Ted

(ref:  msg from Ruschak <pur-ee!kechkayl>)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 14:41:43-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faster than light?

I have heard it said, and the math would seem to agree, that it is
only impossible to approach the speed of light, not to exceed it.
As something approaches the speed of light it undergoes time/mass
dilation.  To reach the speed of light would require infinite energy
for any non-zero mass.

But!  If you plug in the value of 2c you get the same mass/energy
values as 1/2c.  This leads to the speculation concerning tachions,
or particles which have a lower limit of the speed of light.  It has
yet to be determined whether the other half of the formula
represents reality or not.  As I understand it particles traveling
faster than light could not interact with normal matter so nobody
has come up with a test.  I'm not saying that this is the key to
"warp" drive, just that there are openings in the math.

On the subject of fiction why is magic OK but ftl unacceptable?
Much magic seems to violate the principles of mass/energy
conservation.  Mass/energy conservation is considered much more
basic than the speed of light limitation.  If an alternate universe
allows one, then why not the other?
                                            Jerry Aguirre
    {hplabs|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 1984  23:35 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A.ARPA
Subject: hackers

Wrong wrong wrong!
   The original term hacker, as relating to CS, originated at MIT,
where it had very much the same connotation as wizard does on the
SAIL systems, one who is conversant enough with the world that
he/she can hack together a fix for a problem in a short period of
time.

   If you look at the MITSAI JARGON file, the 5 definitions of
hacker do include the one being used today by newspeople, someone
who breaks into systems for fun, but it is listed fifth and last.

   I am preparing an article for submission which outlines why the
term is inappropriate for most cases of computer security violation.
Briefly, it goes like this:

All security violation has to begin with access. If you can't get
past the login, you can't do anything (even Trojan horses have to
get by login.) To login, you need insider's info.  At the least, you
need a valid user id. From that, you can use exhaustive search of
passwords (which is slow, but eventually works), or lucky guesses
(the 60% "Susan" rule). Neither of these is elegant, nor does either
require much expertise. I could teach any literate person to break
into systems in under an hour. The tools of a login hacker are
traded secrets, like DEC's field circus password.

Now, the ability of someone to override account limitations once
they get in is a different story. This actually requires
considerable skill. But just like passwords, once one person knows
how to do it, the word gets around (I've heard rumors of a 7 line
MACRO program which turns on VMS SETPRV...)

   The people who are being labeled hackers are in reality the same
people who trade MCI numbers and pay TV decoder plans. The computer
facet just gets more publicity. Calling them hackers is like calling
anyone who can make mustard gas and use it for terrorism a chemist.
I resent being classed with a bunch of third rate pimply high school
kids who don't have what it takes to rate legit computer time.

And in direct response to Don Provan's comment, most hackers (MIT
sense) have the skill to whittle, but I note a lot of the CS gurus
who can whittle don't have the strength to hack.

                        Proud to be called a hacker,
                        James M. Turner
                        Software Engineer, LISP Machine, Inc
                        (JMTURN@MIT-MC)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #64
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Apr 84 1219-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #64
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:
               Books - Chalker & Vance & Two Queries,
               Films - Star Wars (3 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Getting Rich by Time Travel (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 84 22:40:48 est
Subject: Well World Hex Names

A few weeks ago, someone declared that the names of the individual
hexes in Jack Chalker's Well World Series were all actually names of
various authors and fans.  This is not completely true.

For example, for the H. P. Lovecraft fans out there, there are the
hexes of Nyarlath[otep] and Yogsoth[oth].  Then there are my
favorites, a pair of adjacent hexes named Labrea and Tarpitz.
(Unfortunately, they're not at the corner of Pico and Sepulveda.

{Will Duquette, Claremont, CA}

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 84 10:26:50 PST (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Jack Vance
Cc: (Royal Navy) Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA, riggle@UCBARPA.ARPA,
Cc:  chris@UCBARPA.ARPA, sarge%UCBCORY@Berkeley.ARPA,
Cc: edward@UCBARPA.ARPA,
Cc:  taliesin%UCBONYX@Berkeley.ARPA (Lady LLeyn),
Cc: comay@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA,
Cc:  marshall@UCBARPA.ARPA, leres@UCBARPA.ARPA,
Cc: Poskanzer.pa@Xerox.ARPA

I just finished reading Jack Vance's "Eyes of the Overworld."  I
found it laughing-out-loud funny in some places.  Also, I am
overwhelmed by Vance's vocabulary.  Some might think that Mr. Vance
is just showing off his erudition, but I think that his
dissatisfaction with mundane words contributes to the overall style
that is his trademark.

I found the following "out-of-the-ordinary" words in the novel
(doubtless I am only revealing my own ignorance, but I think it's
worth the risk.)  I will leave the definition of these words as an
excercise for the reader:

abnegation, adumbrated, assiduously, cogency, cognomen, egregious,
ensilage, expatiate, flexion, fuscous, hector, hyperbole,
intercongeles*, locutor, lunules, objurgation, pervulsion,
polyandrous, sept, spinifex, sponsons, squamous, supererogatory,
suprapullulations*, syncretic, swange, timorous

[* are probably neologisms]

In addition, I found the following passages (rendered sans
permission) exceptional [NO SPOILER]:

"Precisely this thought deters me," Cugel replied.  "I am a man of
resource, but not insensate recklessness."
...
"All in good time," said Iucounu.  "First I must ensure that, once
at liberty, you conduct yourself with unremitting loyalty, zeal and
singleness of purpose."

"Have no fear," declared Cugel.  "My word is my bond."

"Excellent!" cried Iucounu.  "This knowledge represents a basic
security which I do not take lightly.  The act now to be preformed
is doubtless supererogatory."
...
Cugel hurriedly disavowed any such ambition.  "I am of low quality;
my garments are soiled, my person reeks; my conversation consists of
insipid platitudes.  Best not to disturb the ruler of Cil."
...
"Additionally, Pharesm maintains a conservatory where all may enrich
their intellects.  I myself take instruction in Insect
Indentification, the Heraldry of the Kings of Old Gomaz, Unison
Chanting, Practical Catalepsy and Orthodox Doctrine.  You will never
find a master more generous than Pharesm the Sorcerer!"
...
"...I can define the gravity of your act in this manner: should I
explode you on this instant into the most minute of your parts the
atonement would measure one ten-millionth of your offense.  A more
stringent retribution becomes necessary."
...
[This one is particularly subtle] Cugel thereupon besought him to
lend his talisman of erotic stimulation.  "The women of Erze Damath
show to good advantage, and with the help of the talisman I will
extend my knowledge of their capabilities."

"By no means," said Voynod, hugging his pouch close to his side.
"My reasons need no amplification."

Cugel put on a sullen scowl.  Voynod was a man whose grandiose
personal conceptions seemed particularly far-fetched and
distasteful, by reason of his unhealthy, gaunt and saturnine
appearance.  [har har har!]
...

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 84 14:43:46-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcr!paulb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Spider Robinson/True Names

Does anybody like Spider Robinson?  I recently finished one of his
books (as far as I know his only book), "Mindkiller" and in spite of
the raw edges I rather enjoyed it.  This is the only book of his I
have been able to find, and I searched a really big bookstore here
in Toronto (they call themselves "The World's Largest Bookstore",
but it's still only a Coles) to no avail.  This is typical however -
heavy sigh.

One more query, some time ago I read a "novella" (there were two of
them in the book I read) called "True Names".  It was all about
computer gaming taken to a higher level.  Well, I lost the book, but
liked that author too.  Anyone know who (s)he is?

                        Paul R. Bonneau
                        {decvax|watmath|utzoo}!hcr!hcrvax!paulb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 84 8:32:17-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!psuvax!burdvax!sjuvax!armstron @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

        Now, let's not forget the possibility of Luke simply being
told that Owen was his uncle, but who in reality was actually no
such relation.

        I think we all probably have "aunts", "uncles", and
"cousins" this way.
                                Len Armstrong,
                                St. Joseph's University.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 84 10:34:20-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother?

>Now, let's not forget the possibility of Luke simply being told
>that Owen was his uncle, but who in reality was actually no such
>relation.

This is the case. It is stated very plainly in the book (I dont have
mine handy, or i would tell you a page number).

Mark Starner
Computer Science Department          (814) 863-0392
301b Whitmore Lab                    {allegra,ihnp4}!psuvax!starner
The Pennsylvania State University    starner@penn-state   (csnet)
University Park, PA 16802            starner@psuvax1      (bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 84 0:37:56-PST (Sun)
From: simpers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death-Star and Endor

I always thought that the reason the Death Star's shield was on
Endor was because the Death Star wasn't finished yet.  When the
emperor arrives on the scene, construction is far behind schedule.
When the rebels attack, pictures clearly show a good portion of what
will be the Death Star as open space.  What probably happened is
that the emperor put finishing the weapons as a first priority,
given that he knew the rebels would come.  When he tells Luke the
Death Star is "fully operational" he means the weapons.  This line
is clearly intended to scare Luke, and he would hardly be scared of
shields.

Scott
simpers@BERKELEY
ucbvax!simpers

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 84 10:37:29-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!ss @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Easy Road to Riches

> OK -- here you are in 1984 with your time machine and bank account
> and microfiche of the Wall Street Journal.  You want to go buy
> Xerox when it was Haloid (or whatever), Polaroid, gold, etc., when
> it was at its lowest and sell at the highest peak.  How do you do
> it?  Just going to the bank and getting a briefcase-full of
> Federal Reserve Notes isn't going to help -- most of them will
> date from releases later than the dates you will be going to, and
> they will be considered very good counterfeits.

Why must you buy when it was at its lowest and sell at the highest?
A few small, known fluctuations in the price of a stock will quickly
add up.  You only need go back to last week to make some sensational
stock manuevers (I am reasonably sure).  Doing it this way you won't
have to worry about currency problems, or even finding a stock
broker who wants to know who you are and where you live!  Just use
your own.  Instead of making 1 or 2 large transactions, make a few
dozen small ones - also calls less attention to yourself!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 84 1:06:30-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Easy Road to Riches

+--------------------
| So, before this gets any longer, I'll sum up by asking: "How DO I
| get rich by time travel?"
|
| Will
+--------------------

You said it yourself. Information. Inflation. Both work in your
favor.

But first, there is one other rule that we must add to the game to
make it non-trivial -- you may not time-travel to any time
futurewards of when you would have been had you not begun
travelling. That is, except for returning to a point of departure,
you may not travel into the future. (The rule may be relaxed to
allow "now" + "time spent in past" without changing anything.)

Why do I say the game is trivial without this rule? Because if you
can travel into your "personal" future, all you have to do is be in
business here-and-now and occasionally hop forward a bit to bring
back some useful tidbit. Nobody will question your 1984 $20 bill
when you go to buy two year's Wall Street Journal (on microfiche) in
1986.  "Puts and calls, here I come!" Just don't be too greedy or
the SEC will come a'calling.

Likewise, I must assume another "rule" -- you are not interested in
setting up your major residence in a past time. Otherwise, see
previous example. (Hey, dentistry gets LOTS better, every year.
Just five years ago, you would have lost that tooth!)

O.k., so you're going to live here, and fool around back then.

Overall, the information you carry back must be of such quality as
to permit you to make profits exceeding inflation. Since you want to
stay secret, you cannot make a very big splash either then now.
Therefore you must run a multi-pass operation, such that the
incremental profits don't draw attention to yourself but the total
profit is worth the work you put in. The capital you must expend is
therefore -- your own subjective time (which many will say is the
only true personal capital).

You will expend that "capital" in setting up an alternate
personality who will do the commerce. (Unless you already did this
under your own name, and you're already rich and just playing mind
games with "all us zombies..." [RAH])

Still, there are many things you can take back for the cash portion
of the bootstrap (remember, "no splash" == "small" grubstake):

1. Diamonds. (Not gold... are you kidding?) Other gemstones.

2. Old bills and coins (but for their face, not present, value).
   Not that I'd want to try and handle the culture shock of that
   long a jump, but Confederate money is going for face (or better)
   value these days.

   If you're only hopping a few years (my choice), sort through some
   cash to find the cleanest-looking ones that aren't anachronistic.

3. Ancient articles which are self-identifying (but not TOO rare),
   such as jade, pottery.

4. Advice to others. (Have to be careful with this one. Some states
   have rules on who can give investment advice.)

Generally, you want items that have always had SOME value, but have
NOT been a good hedge against inflation. In fact, anything that was
once valuable, but has recently LOST value (obsolete technology not
yet old enough to be rare), is best. And you don't need very much.
$10,000 will get you well set. I claim that a pocket full of $20's
would be fine.

>From there on, play the "trivial" game defined above, for a good
while.  As you close on current times, you have to figure out a way
to transfer "the goods" from your persona to you. Sell "him"
something "he" wants.  Gouge "him". Pay taxes (probably "again") on
your bounty.

After you have milked "him" (or "her", if you're female) dry, let
"him" retire somewhere and quietly disappear. Start up another one.
(You might actually have several going at once, but beware of over-
extending yourself. The literature if full of warnings, e.g., "The
Man Who Folded Himself".)

Whatever you do in all of your personae, don't screw with the IRS!
You'll be making enough to keep them and you both happy. A special
case of the rule: Don't get greedy; someone will notice.

DON'T make more than a few tens of thousands gambling! (There are
those besides the IRS whose attentions you REALLY don't want!)

Postscript:

1. If short transfers are permitted, the above hassle is totally
   unnecessary.  You will walk in one day and tell yourself to buy
   100 shares of so-and-so.  Do it. You will continue to give
   yourself good advice (from next week).  Listen. Get rich. If you
   are careful, people will just think you are "lucky" or "smart".
   Someday you will get the device (or trick or mantra) let lets you
   go backwards. Start using it to advise your(younger)self.  Keep
   good notes. Someday you may find out where you got the device (or
   trick or mantra). Then again, you may not...

2. If short transfers are NOT permitted (as in Keith Laumer's
   "Dinosaur Beach"), you're in trouble. If tranfers to historical
   times are permitted, you just MIGHT be able to profit from your
   information, but it's going to be hard. The daily details
   (stocks, etc.) aren't recorded back very far, and how does one
   make money from major historical events? Might be better to take
   up residency back then and pop up to now for medical care.

   You could always sell Pompeii short. ;-}

Rob Warnock

UUCP:   {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,harpo,sri-unix,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 84 22:40:52-PST (Fri)
From: wildbill @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine

Better watch yourself with that stock market gimmick. I remember
reading an SF story where a wealthy individual had amassed
considerable assets in the market. He had visions of another crash
upcoming, so he borrowed a time machine which a mad-scientist
relative of his had just recently invented and jumped several years
into the future to find out when it was. Upon consulting the
newspapers in the local library, he fouind out the big crash was the
day after he left, so he dashed back and told his broker to sell
everything. The next day, the headlines were exactly the same as he
remembered, but the fine print (which he hadn't bothered to read in
the library) revealed that the major cause was \\his own sellout//.
He promptly became the target of a rather large lynch mob composed
of people who had lost their shirts in the collapse.

Another story along slightly different lines (I think this one is by
Fredric Brown) concerns the inventor who builds a time machine and
then tries to figure out how to get rich with it when one has
virtually no money, only to find out that there is a Time Police
with the duty of ensuring that no illegal activities are committed
with time machines. He eventually gets shut down permanently --
quite funny.

                                    Bill Laubenheimer
                                    UC-Berkeley Computer Science
      ...Killjoy WAS here!          ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #65
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Apr 84 1352-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #65
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:
     Books - Gotleib & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Robinson (2 msgs) &
             Vinge,
     Films - 70mm & The Last Starfighter & Star Wars,
     Miscellaneous - Hackers (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 20 Apr 84 03:35:53-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: SUNBURST; SF heroines

^^^^^^^^^^^ Author Identified and a Gauntlet Thrown Down ^^^^^^^

SUNBURST, with the young heroine with psi capabilities, is by
Phyllis Gotlieb.  Published in 1964, it is the 9th oldest SF
paperback book with a female protagonist which I have been able to
discover in a number of years' collecting.  (The newest came out
just this week from DelRey-- THE GIRL FROM THE EMERALINE ISLAND by
Robert S. Blum.  Not the greatest, but not bad.)

SF paperback books with female protagonists aren't the rarity they
were back then when there were only 9 between 1951 and 1964.  But
tracking them down isn't easy.  I've located something over a
hundred.  Since every once in a while I come across an oldie I've
missed I have no illusions about my collection being complete.
Though of course I'd sure like it to be!

So I issue this in the form of a challenge-- NOT EVEN ON THIS NET IS
THERE ANYONE WHO CAN NAME A \SCIENCE FICTION/ (NOT FANTASY) PAPER-
BACK BOOK WITH A FEMALE PROTAGONIST THAT'S NOT ALREADY KNOWN TO ME.

Obviously, it's a challenge I hope to lose!

Reply directly to me, to keep the net from being clogged up.  (I do
know about all of Schmitz' and McCaffrey's and about Podkayne, Mia,
Greta, Freda, Rydra, and Rissa; and no, Susan doesn't qualify.)  I
will reply to all suggestions, and shout to the housetops about
anyone who CAN name one I don't know about.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 84 21:12:24-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: short story query

"All You Zombies," R.A. Heinlein, appears in several collections
(4XH?).  ``I know where *I* came from, but what about all you
zombies?'' (Quoted more or less accurately from memory.)

        I wish to know the title of a time-travel story.  In the
        story, a man/woman journeys in time to seduce a woman/man.
        The time- traveler takes the child conceived by this union
        back in time.  The child grows up to become the seduced
        parent. Furthermore after the birth, this mother/father has
        a sex change operation, comes upon a time machine, and
        thereby becomes father/mother as well.  Please give me
        information as to where I can find this story as well as its
        title.

            Robert Luoma
            Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712
        (USmail)
            ...{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!utastro!luoma (uucp)

John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
jsq@ut-sally.ARPA,
jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 18 Apr 1984 14:39-EST
From: munck@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Psychic powers in Heinlein

  It is interesting that Heinlein avoids PSI most of the time.
However, it seems to me that the second exception has to be
Valentine Michael Smith, SiaSL.
                -- Bob Munck, MITRE

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 84 12:15:45 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names
To: decvax!mcnc!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcr!paulb@UCB-VAX.ARPA

        I recently read two of Spider Robinsons other books and
enjoyed them very much.  The first of them "Callahan's Crosstime
Saloon" is a collection of short stories that take place in this
bar.  All the stories center around some theme and all of them are
filled with the worst (best?) puns you can possibly imagine. Or then
again maybe not.  I've seen some from Asimov as well as Zelazny and
I've been known to make quite a few of my own.  In fact, at Boskone
there is an event known as Punday Night which is taken from this
book.  I recommend it to all who have not read it yet.
        The second book is "Time Travelers Strictly Cash" and has
some more stories in it from Callahan's.  It also has in it some of
the stuff that Spider wrote for various magazines including a
defense of Heinlein.  All of those people who have in recent issues
of this digest been putting down Heinlein should read this essay by
Spider Robinson.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 84 18:09:58 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #64

     Does anybody like Spider Robinson???  A resounding Yea!  He has
been around for at least 5 years, writing mostly short stories. Many
of these are about a bar called Callahan's, the first of which are
collected in Callahan's Crosstime Saloon. There are more in the book
Time Travelers Strictly Cash, but that book also has other short
stories in it. At present he has a tendency to write short stories
and then expand them into novels; I feel the novels suffer in
comparison to the short stories. They don't have the impact that the
short stories have, through having that same impact spread through
an entire book. I suppose this may also come of the fact that I grab
everything I can by him, so that the novels are never any surprise.
Here is a listing of his books that I can remember, along with the
short stories they started as:

Novels:
Mindkiller  (God Is An Iron,  Omni magazine)
Stardance  (Stardance, Analog?)
Telempath (Telempath)

Collections of Short Stories:
Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
Time Travelers Strictly Cash
Antinomy

There are more, but I can't remember them now. Almost all of my
copies get borrowed or lent out; I have a tendency to proselytize
about the man. To me he has the optimism of Heinlein, but with a
much surer confidence that things CAN work out right. As example,
see the story "The Magnificent Conspiracy" in Antinomy.

Let me stop before I write a book...
have fun
/amqueue

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people who
responded with similar information:
Harris Shiffman (Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC)
Scott Turner (srt@UCLA-CS)
Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui
]

------------------------------

Date: Thu 19 Apr 84 11:53:29-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: True Names author query in SFL V9 #64
To: decvax!mcnc!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcr!paulb@UCB-VAX.ARPA

"True Names" is by Vernor Vinge, and is one of the two novellas in
Dell SF Binary Star #5.  The other is George R.R. Martin's
"Nightflyers".

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 18 April 1984, 23:19-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr at SCH-Gila>
Subject: 70mm
To: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH at MIT-DM>

    Date: Mon 16 Apr 84 12:00:54-EST
    From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA>
    Subject: 70mm

    Tron, as well as Brainstorm, was filmed in 70mm although a 70mm
    print was never shown in the Boston area.

Well, close enough -- principal photography for a 70mm release print
is normally done in 65mm, but what's 5mm between friends?  But the
effects in TRON were shot in Vistavision (horizontal 35mm, 8 perf
frames) where as the Braindrain effects work was shot in 65mm.  As
Mike Wahrman mentioned, this was better-than-standard practice, and
the proof was on the screen.  -c

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 84 17:09:25 PST (Thursday)
From: Isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: New SF movie: The Last Starfighter (Computer Animation/Efx)

        The final filming of a new "Space Epic" has just been
completed. The twist to this movie, The Last Starfighter
(Lorimar/MGM/Universal), is that it will contain about 20-25 minutes
of Computer generated images: Space battles, planets, star fields,
warp drives, etc. The scenes were done by Digital Productions (Los
Angeles) on a CRAY X/MP (a dual processor CRAY 1). The plot is
fairly simple(not a spoiler as the Trailer is out in the theaters
and says about the same.): Young kid/video hotshot wants out of dull
rural life. his video game scores attract the Alien recruiters who
take him away to fight for the survival of the free galaxy.
        The space scenes are FANTASTIC (I used to work at Digital
Prod.) The level of detail and realism makes TRON look like child's
play. There are NO models used (as in the Star Wars and Star Trek
features). The final battle scenes have more moving objects than
Lucas' ILM has yet been able to do with models (basicly because the
models have to be shot in several passes with some quality losses,
the computer generated images get merged -matted- in the CRAY so
there is only one film recording pass.)

The Art Director was Ron Cobb who did the humans' ship for ALIEN as
well as working on such other flicks as Dark Star, Conan, Raiders of
the Lost Ark, Star Wars (several aliens in the bar). Ron has done
work for NASA.  He did much of the ship designs for Starfighter
(with Lorimar making odd demands that hinder the looks).

There are a couple trailers for the movie currently in the theaters.
The movie itself is scheduled for release in June. The live action
stuff was completed months ago and cut in with the low detail
computer images.  They are now replacing the low res. stuff with the
full blown images.  Some of the scenes took as long as 40 dedicated
CRAY hours to film. Wait till you see this one. The images will blow
your socks off!!

(as for "used to work at": 70-80 hour weeks -7days- without overtime
compensation (straight salary) all the time, no chance of raises,
terrible physical environment, and the company management has a BIG
problem dealing with humans. They are much more at home with a
terminal.- Flame off-)

Jerry Isdale
        (...!)ucbvax!Isdale.es@XEROX.Arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri 20 Apr 84 00:04:24-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.Trei@CU20B>
Subject: Death Star weapon.

        After seeing a lot of casual talk on this board about the
Death Star and its ability to blow up planets, I decided it was time
to get a little more specific. Just how much energy does it actually
take to blow up, say Earth (we dont have the stats for Alderan).

        For the sake of argument, I have defined a planet as being
'blown up' when its fragments are receding from its original
location fast enough so that they will never coalesce again. In
effect, the entire mass of the planet has to be accelerated to its
own escape velocity.

Using the back of a very large envelope, this is what I came up
with. (I hope someone checks these figures).

Earths density : 5.52 g/cm^3
Diameter:        12,757 km
Escape velocity: 11.3 km/s

=> vol = 1.087 E13 km^3
mass = 6 E25 kg

=> Need 3.8307 E33 Joules to blow up.

(Of course, this ignores the planets structural strength, and
assumes 100% efficiency in production of kinetic energy with the
appropriate vectors.)

        Thats a lot of EverReadys. What could be the source of this
energy?  Can the Death Star hold that much? The answer is yes, if
they use mass conversion at high efficiency. Here is the calculation
for the mass equivalent of that energy:

1 kg = 9 E16 Joules   (from E = mc^2)

=> need 4.2555 E16 kg of mass.

If this mass is at the same density as the Earth, you will require
8100 Km^3 of it. In one lump, this is a spheroidal rock about 25 Km
across. Of course, it gets smaller if you use lead, or neutronium.

        Some people have been saying that the DS is '100 miles'
across. I find this difficult to accept. From its appearence in the
movies, I would have said that its diameter was 5-10 miles at the
outside. This obviously leads one to wonder where they keep (a
minimum of) 4 E16 kg of ammo, and still leave room inside for
spacefighter dogfights. Even using antimatter doesn't really help,
at best it improves your ammo's effiency by a factor of two.

        I am forced to the conclusion that the DS's main weapon is
not sending out all of that energy itself. Somewhere along the line
more energy is being produced, and delivered to the target. The
'chain reaction' hypothesis thus appears. I can think of two ways to
do this:

1. Induced fusion.
        Back when they were testing the first thermonuclear weapons
out in the Pacific, some people entertained serious worries that the
shock wave of the bombs would induce fusion in the light water of
the Ocean, leading to a chain reaction in which all the hydrogen of
the Earth would fuse. Also, think of the current work on inertial
confinment laser induced fusion. I have heard that the Antares laser
produces (momentary) flashes of 4 E19 watts.

2. Matter conversion ray.
        In one of his Known Space stories, Larry Niven had a weapon,
the ray of which would convert anything it touched to energy. Even
on an airless moon, you could see the ray because of the destruction
of interplanetary gas. At one point the protagonist accidently
allows the ray to intersect the horizon, causing a major earthquake.
It would be just dandy as a planet destroyer (BTW, this was a HAND
WEAPON!).
                                Peter Trei
                                oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa

PS: I wonder how many times in the past someone has actually done
this calculation!
                                                Hail Eris!
                                                PT

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 1984 06:59:14 PST
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: Correction

The mischievous imp in the Superman comics is MR. MXYZPTLK
(pronounced mix-yez-pit-el-ick).  The "Z" was left out of the
original reference.  I believe he was from a "5th-dimensional" world
with an equally strange name, and would come into our dimension
occasionally to pester Supes.  The only way he could be gotten rid
of (temporarily) was to trick him into saying his name backwards
(kil-tip-zix-em).

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 Apr 1984 06:48:43-PST
From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Duntemann on hackers, Mxyztplk

At least spell it correctly.  M X Y Z T P L K !

I recall being told that this is actually a "real" surname in Poland
and is pronounced approximately Mix YEZ te plik.  I have also heard
it pronounced Mix yez TI pulk, however.  Surely there is someone who
can state which is more proper, and whether Poles, who already have
enough jokes to be offended by, would be offended by this suggested
appropriation of a name to mean "the good kind of hacker; a clever,
mostly harmless, prankster".

I think Duntemann's suggestion has the (possibly unwanted) side
effect of pointing out that even though there may be naive Mxyztplk
style hackers they have the SAME EFFECT as villains because their
pranks can be so disruptive.

As for the media image of the hacker - it has the same relation to
the truth about computer people as "the Mad Scientist" has to the
truth about real scientists.  Just as the mass culture never figured
out why a sane human being would devote his/her life to laboratory
science, it will never figure out the aesthetic high possible from
the exploration of computer science.  Getting bent out of shape
because of this media image is fruitless.  20 years ago some of us
were similarly offended by all the B-movie mad scientists.  But the
image met a need.  The hacker thing meets a need, too.  The same
one, probably.  Just as magicians were once feared and envied, now
people who understand and deal with technology are feared and
envied.  How do you think the farmers who built Stonehenge felt
about the mages who directed the project?

How many people NOWADAYS understand how Stonehenge could be used to
predict eclipses?  If people don't understand that simple, single
purpose computer how do you expect them to understand the modern
thing and the people who work with them?  Give it up.  The Hacker,
as a media image, is here to stay.  It's the mad scientist all over
again.  Blecch.
                      - Suford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #66
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 84 1258-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #66
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:
          Books - Bradley & Donaldson & Hardy & Herbert &
                  Sheckley & V. Vinge,
          Films - Star Wars (3 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Getting Rich By Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 84 1:43:23-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!avsdT.sharon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: List of Darkover Books

    I seem to remember (in the not-too-distant past) the question
arise of "What is the correct chronological order of Marion Zimmer
Bradley's Darkover novels?" Well, I was in a a bookstore today
(Kepler's in Menlo Park for all you other locals) which has posted a
list of the Darkover books. It is here reprinted for you:

        Darkover Books by Internal Chronological Order

                 1. Darkover Landfall
                 2. Stormqueen
                 3. Hawkmistress
                 4. Two to Conquer
                 5. The Spell Sword
                 6. The Forbidden Tower
                 7. The Shattered Chain
                 8. Thendara House
                 9. Star of Danger
                10. Winds of Darkover
                11. The Bloody Sun
                12. The Heritage of Hastur
                13. The Planet Savers
                14. The Sword of Aldones
                15. Sharra's Exile
                16. The World Wreckers

        Collection of Short Stories concerning Darkover
                in Order of Publication
        (caveat emptor:  I believe most of the stories in
        these books are not even written by Marion
        Zimmer Bradley -- they were written by fans.)

                1. The Keeper's Price
                2. Sword of Chaos
                3. Greyhaven

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 84 16:16:21-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!jett!brian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant/Sanskrit definitions

<Melenkurion abatha! Duroc minas mill khabaal!>
   Can anyone out there give me the (real) definitions of some of
the Sanskrit words used in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the
Unbeliever?  I happened to run into a definition of MOKSHA (New
plane of existence entered by souls which have attained perfection
through many incarnations--Hindu belief) today and wondered if the
other definitions were available.  I am especially interested in the
definitions for: aliantha, amanibhavam, anundivian yajna, Banas
Nimoram, Bhrathair (brother?), caamora, Kelenbhrabanal, Melenkurion
abatha (etc), turiya, samadhi, orcrest, lillianrill, lomillialor,
lor-liaril, lianar, rhadhamaerl, suru-pa-maerl, dhraga, dhubha,
dhurng, drhami, durhisitar, ghohristar, ghramin, Haruchai, krill,
rukh, rhysh, skest, ussusimiel, voure, vraith, ak-Haru, clachan,
croyel, Elemesnedene (I know what Elohim means), husta, Kenaustin
Ardenol, maidan, and Nicor.  I list these in case there is someone
out there who knows the definitions but has not read the books.  Of
course, I am sure some of these are not from Sanskrit at all, but I
would not know which ones.

            Thanks for your help,
                -- Brian Reynolds
                {ihnp4|clyde|sdcrdcf}!akgua!jett!brian

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 84 10:34:00-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!kaufman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hardy Sequel Forthcoming

"Secret of the Sixth Magic" by Lyndon Hardy, sequel to "Master of
the Five Magics", is due out in September.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 84 3:24:37-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix21 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dune fans please note, Herbert on radio

Avid Dune fans may be interested to know that Frank Herbert will be
interviewed live on the Larry King Show Thursday evening, (Friday
morning), April 19-20.  The Larry King show is carried on many radio
stations across the nation.  The interview will be on from 12:00 to
3:00 am EST.  Some stations in the Pacific time zone; however,
tape-delay the first two hours of the show and play them back from
2:00 to 4:00 PST.

The first hour will be a straight interview, and the latter two
hours are reserved for phone in questions.  The Larry King show is
carried on the Mutual Broadcast System and many other stations
across the nation; check your newspaper to see if the show is
carried in your area.

In the San Diego area the Larry King Show is on KOGO 600 AM; the
last hour of the interview will be on live at 11:00 pm PST, and the
entire interview will be replayed from 2:00 to 5:00.  In the Los
Angeles area the show is carried on KPRZ 1150 AM on tape from 2:00
to 5:00.

If you want to call in to ask a question the phone number is (703)
685-2177; if you get a ring, hold on, they will answer when it is
your turn to save on your phone charges; this may take 45 minutes if
a lot of people are calling in.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Apr 84 18:24:26-EST
From: Victor Muslin <MUSLIN@DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA>
Subject: ROBERT SHECKLEY

I am collecting SF books by Robert Sheckley. I have about ten or
twelve of his works, but I know that my collection is incomplete. I
would like to buy/trade/receive-as-a-present his books that I don't
have. Anyone else out there interested in his work?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 84 15:42:35-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!parks @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: True Names

TRUE NAMES was written by Vernor Vinge, who is the author of the
currently running serial in Analog this (and next) month.  I also
really enjoy his writing, but he doesn't write all that much.
According to this month's Analog Biolog, he is a mathematics prof at
San Diego, and interested in FORTH among other computer languages.
They also say that the movie rights have been picked up on True
Names!

I would very much like to find out about any other works by Vinge
(Vernor, not his ex-wife Joan).  He has three books published called
"Grimm's World", "The Witling", and "True Names".  He also published
several shorts in Analog and Galaxy, including "The Infinity Sense"
(An), the frontliner (?) series (Galaxy), and "The Peace War" (the
current Analog).  Does anyone know of any others??  Also, what
issues of Galaxy did the frontliner series appear in, and how many
stories?
                                     Jay Parks
          (decvax!hao!ihnp4!seismo)!kpno!parks     :uucp

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 84 19:27 EST
From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Death Star Weapon
To: oc.trei%cu20b@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA

Peter Trei has performed an invaluable service in calculating the
energy we need to put an end to Earthly worries, but he neglects to
include other specific information known about the Death Star's
weapons system.

Assuming 4E33 Joules to kill a planet, and assuming that the Death
Star is capable of delivering that kind of energy, one can make the
following observations about the Death Star's beam:

Using an assumed firing time of 1 second, and assuming six (yes, I
counted the little beams that joined to form the big beam) firing
tubes, each having an effective diameter of 2 meters (a guess from
the picture of one of the firing tubes in the third movie
(admittedly, on the improved Death Star Mk II)), the Death Star's
beam has a power of ~4E33 Watts, and an energy flux density of
5.6E31 Watts/meter-squared.  This works out to an energy density in
the beam of:

1.85E23 Joules/meter-cubed (!!!)

which has an equivalent mass density of 2.06E6
kilograms/meter-cubed, which is over two thousand times the density
of water.

This leads is to one of several conclusions:

1) Not only is the Death Star powered by neutronium, but it fires it
as well.  This would explain, among other things, the bizarre
merging effect of the Death Star's fire into a single beam.
Unfortunately, the entire concept of the Death Star's weapon being a
very advanced ballistic water cannon seems contrary to the spirit of
the movie.

2) A total conversion ray, as discussed in Peter's analysis.  This
gets around the energy problem, but it lacks the god-defying power
present in the image of the Death Star.  Since the Death Star is
much too efficient anyway (biotoxins or heating the planet to 4000
degrees will take out a planet more cheaply), we must assume that
its very reason for existence lay in the twisted power trip of some
high-ranking Imperial official, apparently (from the third movie)
the Emperor himself.  Such a perverse, planet-wrecking mind would
hardly be satisfied by funny scientific trickeries when raw power
would suffice.

3) A Godsfire effect.  (This is my personal favorite.)  1.85E23
Joules/meter-cubed (or six times that at the focal point) seems like
more than enough energy to rip great bloody holes in the fabric of
the universe.  This allows gobs of energy to come from **somewhere**
and pulverize your planet for you.  If you could get away with less,
you save on energy, and your Emperor now can claim wresting fire
from the Gods to fuel his hubris.  The principal argument that I can
see for this lies in the use of weak, primary beams to produce the
mammoth secondary beam; this would correspond to focusing the
maximum amount of power into a single point in order to summon the
energy from **somewhere**.  If I remember right, the primary beams
bore on their focal point for a fraction of a second before the
secondary beam appeared.  You can't do this with simple energy or
ballistic weapons.

4) Magic.  By far the best of the lot, but also the least
satisfying.

These are the biggies that I can come up with.  If anybody else can
think of anything significantly different, I'd like to hear about
it.

The Force Be With You, Always.
--Jim Aspnes (Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 03:07:00 PST (Sun)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #65
From: Operators <ops@uci-750a>

In the book "The Empire Strikes Back" the relation of the characters
is explained.  It says that when Anakin/Darth had the twins Luke and
Leia, he was afraid that the Emperor would find out about them
(since they would be a threat to the Empire).  So Anakin had his
teacher Obi-Wan take the kids and hide them.  Obi-Wan took Leia to
Senator Organa on Alderaan.  Luke was taken to Owen Lars (Obi's
brother) on Tatooine.  The Organa's adopted Leia and the Lars'
adopted Luke.  Really simple, isn't it?

                                         Douglas Krause
                                         <dkrause@uci-750b>
                                         <ops@uci-750a>

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 84 7:45:34-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houxe!45223wc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Princess Who? summary:

After receiving dozens of responses on my Princess Who? article,
 I summarize:

Almost half say that C3PO knew it was the princess but was
   protecting her.
Almost half say that C3PO knew the princess was on board but had
   never met her and therefore did not recognize her.
One person said it was a writer's error and that the line was
   changed in the re-release that came out just before ROTJ to say:
         'The Captain will never get out of this one . . . '

   - Bill Cambre     ATTISL  02272   houxq!45223wc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 84 15:10:54 EST
From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) <wmartin@BRL-VGR.ARPA>
Subject: Start of "Getting Rich By Time Travel" Discussion

I noticed the three messages on the subject topic in the last
digest; I had submitted the message that started the discussion via
USENET net.sf-lovers, and it seems that some of the followups
arrived at the gateway to the ARPANET SF-Lovers Digest, but not the
original (at least, I haven't seen this in a digest that I recall).
So here is a copy of the original:

Using time travel as an aid to the practical and mundane aspects of
life has always appealed to me; I've read SF in which a housewife
time-travels to do her grocery shopping during the Depression, when
bargains were BARGAINS, and we've all seen references to the value
of tomorrow's Wall Street Journal...

However, there are some practical aspects of this that I haven't
seen mentioned in SF. They may well have been, but I don't recall
reading about them. Exactly what is the best way to carry on
time-travel-based commerce?  No matter what information you can
carry with you, at some time you have to get cash or material of
value in the time frame in which you need to make investments or buy
goods.  This isn't as easy as it sounds...

(Aside: a couple assumptions to make the discussion simpler -- 1)
The act of travelling in time and moving materials is easy and
either free or very cheap -- if it requires enormous energy
expenditures, as some have speculated, it becomes so costly as to
eliminate the commercial aspects.
2) You can move to any point in space-time, though limited to stay
on the planet [arbitrary restriction here]; so you can get from 1979
Cleveland to 1803 Paris with your whiz-bang time machine, without
worrying about getting from 1803 Cleveland to 1803 Paris via boat or
whatever...
3) You want to keep this somewhat secret -- no coming back in a
blaze of glory and saying, "Hi There! I'm from the Twentieth Century
and I want to trade these wonderful cassette players and Culture
Club tapes for these dingy old statues you have sitting around the
Forum...")

OK -- here you are in 1984 with your time machine and bank account
and microfiche of the Wall Street Journal.  You want to go buy Xerox
when it was Haloid (or whatever), Polaroid, gold, etc., when it was
at its lowest and sell at the highest peak.  How do you do it?  Just
going to the bank and getting a briefcase-full of Federal Reserve
Notes isn't going to help -- most of them will date from releases
later than the dates you will be going to, and they will be
considered very good counterfeits.  Most of the things you could
buy, take back, and sell for more than you paid for them will be
anachronistic, thus violating your secrecy -- the Time Police from
4754 will come and get you, right?  This leaves out peddling Walkmen
and calculators in 1953.  It seems that you will be best off with
some sort of basic materials instead.

Now, I recall that aluminum was more valuable than gold before the
modern refining processes were developed.  So you buy aluminum
ingots and zip back to Napoleonic France, where you offer to trade
this for gold. This should work for a small amount, but the problem
is that, since there was so little aluminum and it was high priced,
and it isn't very pretty, there's little demand for it.  They made
table services out of it, for ostentation, but the jewelers and
smiths could only sell so many of those; your market gets glutted.

Another source of income could be retrieving lost art and historical
artifacts just before they were destroyed or lost -- pulling the
contents out of the Library at Alexandria microseconds before the
flames reach them, for example.  A traditional way of avoiding
changing the past but recovering from the tragedies of history.  But
what will you do with the carload of scrolls once you have them?
Unless the fact of time travel is known, no one will believe that
these new-looking scrolls came from 2000 years back, so how do you
sell them?  And if you try to sell them in the time when you need
current currency to make your investments, you have changed YOUR
past.

What about land?  Well, I could go back to the Pre-Cambrian and
plant indestructible claim markers all over Gondwanaland.  I'd have
to break secrecy, but could I then claim all the continents by right
of prior discovery? Somehow, I doubt that I could get the legal
system to enforce my claims.

So, before this gets any longer, I'll sum up by asking: "How DO I
get rich by time travel?"  [I just happened to come into possession
of a brand-new but hot-wired 3942 Chronocruiser, with bucket seats
and a hyperspatial trunk, blue with green trim, and I'm just itching
to give it a spin...]

Will

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #67
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Apr 84 1307-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #67
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:
          Administrivia - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net,
          Books - Heinlein & Lem & V. Vinge,
          Films - Star Wars,
          Miscellaneous - Hackers & Get Rich By Time Travel (2 msgs) &
                  Force Fields and Reality (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 13:08:33 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net

        This opus is now available via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP.
The file is <jaffe.sfl>hitch-hikers-guide-to-the-net.txt.  Those of
you who do not have access to FTP can send mail to
sf-lovers-request@rutgers for a copy.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 20:16:38 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Psychics in Heinlein

Pax! Uncle! I surrender!

     I must thank Martin Minow and Andrew Klossner for setting my
memory straight as to Heinlein's use of psychics. Among those
stories mentioned, that I freely admit myself wrong about, were:

Gulf
If This Goes On...
Methuselah's Children
Time Enough For Love
Beyond This Horizon
Lost Legacy


Others mentioned that I would argue about, in no particular order: I
Will Fear No Evil: There were two explanations given for the
'communication' between Johann and Eunice:
     a) Johann is nuts, bonkers, around the bend and imagining it
        all
 and b) in some way Eunice is present in all of her body and
removing the brain has not removed her personality. This second one
seems to be a spinoff of the fact that planaria remember all over
themselves.  In either case, no psychic abilities are brought out.

Stranger in a Strange Land: it is specifically stated that Michael's
abilities are the result of knowing more about the fabric of
spacetime and the nature of reality, and that this knowledge is
teachable once one learns the language. ( I would like to point out
that most sciences have their 'own language' which must be learned
before one can do anything in that science....it took me about a
year to be able to understand 90% of what my hacker friends were
talking about). I believe at some point Mike says that if someone
prefers to believe that what is being done is psychic, that are
welcome to do so, but that they would be wrong.

Waldo/Magic, Inc: Waldo draws power and energy from a pathway to
another universe; magic is magic, not psychic powers ( I will admit
that the difference may be negligible here, but I am not an
authority on magic).  This one may be debatable.

Communicate With Dead in Number of the Beast: If you are referring
to the scene where Jake 'talks' to his wife, I think that is
stretching it. The scientific method is to create a model of the
problem and to manipulate.  This can be done with people too; I see
no reason to think that Jake is talking to this dead wife's spirit
when it is more possible for him to be talking to a mental image. It
is a fact that people who are long married can 'predict' each other
to that extent. And an ideal model would not have the failing of
dying. Everyone has at some point gone through a decision making
process where one says "What would so and so do in this situation?"
This sounds lots like that.

Group Mind In Methuselah's Children: The essence of a mind is
contact between all the nerve cells; for all the book says, each
body could be an electro-magnetic transceiver on some odd band. I
haven't heard of radio waves being classed as extra-sensory....

In all of the above cases, the explanation was either given or
implied somehow in the structure of the book (at least to me). I
think that application of Occam's Razor finds explanations other
that psychic powers for the books I dispute, and have given what I
come up with. I'm sorry I have to answer to the digest, but I cannot
mail directly out to the net. I hope no one is too bored....

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 20 Apr 1984 14:32-PST
Subject: Lem's Solaris -- movie vs. book
From: greep@SU-DSN.ARPA

(I was out of town for a couple of weeks so this is slightly dated
now.)  Some years ago Mike Wahrman told me how utterly boring the
movie Solaris was, so I never bothered to try to see it or read the
book.  When I finally did read it, I thought it was quite good, but
utterly unsuited for the screen, since it is largely philosophical
and there is very little action to be portrayed.  So I would suggest
not letting the movie (whatever version it may be) deter anyone from
reading the book.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 1984 12:25:10 EST
From: FF Bottles of Beer on the Wall,...
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: "True Names" to be Novelized

     Vernor Vinge's "True Names" will soon see re-release in an
expanded (read 'novel') form.  Artist Bob Walters, who's done a fair
amount of work in various magazines (c.f., the illo for Gardner
Dozois' Nebula nominee story, "The Peacemaker") and has just
finished his stuff for the "Dune Encyclopedia" is doing the
wraparound cover and interior work, some of which involved a
housemate and I doing the poses for planning photos.  The precise
publication date isn't set yet, but I'll pass it on when I know it.
--Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 84 9:40:34-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SW Trivia Quiz - ANSWERS!!!!

--------+====  (light sabre that bug!!)

I. AN APOLOGY:
   I'm sorry this took so long to get posted.  First, facilities
   decided we needed to be moved.  It took almost 3 weeks to get
   the computer terminals installed.  Then, just after I had the
   answers typed in, the system crashed and was down for two days.
   I finally have enough time to retype this.  Please forgive me.

II. SCORING:
   The quiz is worth a total of 47 points as follows:
   9 points for #1 (1 for each line, 1 for each speaker,1 for each
     listner.)
   10 points for #2 (same as above + there are two acceptable
     answers for TESB, if both are given, 1 point bonus)
   10 points for #3 (2 each for each correct answer, subtract
     1 point for every extra answer)
   8 points for #4 (same as above)
   10 points for #5.  Yes I know this was a trick question.  I give
     an explanation of this question when I give the answers.

III. THE QUESTIONS

1. What is the first spoken line in each of the three Star Wars
films?  Who said it? To whom?

2. What is the last spoken line in each of the three Star Wars
films?  Who said it?  To whom?

3. How many times is the line "I've got a bad feeling about this!"
said over the course of the three films?  When?  By whom?

4. How many times is the line "It's not my fault!" said over the
course of the three films?  When?  By whom?

5.  Most people know that James Earl Jones did the voice of Darth
Vader, even though David Prowse played the part.  However, there is
one scene where David Prowse's voice comes through.  When?  What
does he say?

IV. THE ANSWERS

NOTE: ANH refers to A New Hope, TESB refers to The Empire Strikes
Back, ROTJ refers to Return of the Jedi.

1. ANH: "Did you hear that? They'v shut down the main reactor!"C3P0
to R2D2.
   TESB: "Echo 3 to Echo 7, Han ol' buddy!" Luke to Han
   ROTJ: "Command Station, this is ST321 code clearance blue.  We
are starting our approach, deactivate the security shield." Darth
Vader's shuttle pilot to energy shield command station.

2. ANH: "He'll be alright" Luke to C3P0
   TESB: "Owww!" Luke to medic droid
            OR
         "Take care you two, May the Force be with you!" Luke to
Lando and Chewie.
    ROTJ: "He's my brother!" Leia to Han.

3. (5 times total)
    1. ANH, Luke when the Falcon is being dragged into the Death
Star.
    2. ANH, Han in the trash compactor.
    3. TESB, Leia when down the throat of the "asteroid creature".
    4. ROTJ, C3P0 just after entering Jabba's castle.
    5. ROTJ, Han about to be roasted by the Ewoks.

4. (4 times total)
    1. TESB, Han after leaving the asteroid belt when the Falcon
won't go into hyperdrive.
    2. TESB, same as above. (The line is "It's not my fault...It's
NOT My Fault!!!!")
    3. TESB, Lando upon leaving Bespin when the Falcon won't go
hyper.
    4. ROTJ, Han to Jabba just after being thawed.

5. (10 points)
   This happened during the big fight scene between Luke and Darth
on Bespin in TESB.  Twice, David Prowse lets out a very audible
"Damn", once when he gets spun around after missing Luke, and once
when he gets pushed off a platform.  After seeing the footage, the
powers that be decided that the lines really didn't fit in, so they
were never over dubbed.  But, David had spoken so loud, they are not
completely covered by the music.

May the Farce Be With You,
Marla S. Baer
ssc-vax!marla

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 84 14:23:00-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "Press Enter []" by John Varley

In "the Hacker's Dictionary" it says about the word FOO:

        "A hacker avoids using 'foo' as the real name of anything.
        Indeed, a standard convention is that any file with 'foo' in
        its name is temporary and can be deleted on sight."

Was this a clue to the fate of Lisa Foo?
Half baked brains are like a fallen souffle.
I maintain that the story is a crock.

BTW, when I was in grade school I thought of a Frob as a little
medallion that construction workers wore from their belt showing a
picture of something like a backhoe or bulldozer.

-Shaun ...uiucdcs!uicsl!keller (from the birthplace of HAL)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 1984  13:52 EST (Thu)
From: Paul Fuqua <PF@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: How to get rich with a time machine

     I recall a story that involved a man who had in some
unspecified way made contact with himself 2 days in the past and 2
days in the future.  By maintaining this contact over a long period,
he made a comfortable living through the same modest investments
someone else suggested.
     Another story involved some mysterious gentleman who appeared
in the 1400s and invested some semi-trivial amount, which grew via
compound interest and prudent manipulations until it included most
of the property in Europe.  The use to which this massive fortune
was put?  Paying for the resources necessary to time-jump back to
the 1400s....
                              pf

------------------------------

Date: Thu 19 Apr 84 15:02:03-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Getting Rich by time Travel

Hey, this is a great new topic!  here are a few thoughts:

1.  There are LOTS of commodities that are cheap now and were
    expensive a few years (or centuries) back.  For ease of
    transport, quality, profit, and untraceability I would choose
    spices: cloves, pepper, cinnamon, ...  were all at one time
    worth more than their weight in gold.  You could also try silk,
    wire, thread, needles, eyeglasses, ...

2.  There are several things expensive now that were cheap then, for
    instance artworks by unappreciated geniuses (you buy a dozen
    Impressionist works for $10 apiece, stuff them away somewhere to
    age, zap forward and retrieve them).

3.  But for my preference, the ideal cheap commodity in earlier
    times was (sorry, folks) - SLAVES.  Imagine setting up in
    Tuscany round about 50 AD, with land, a villa, and enough cheap
    labor to live very comfortably.  Of course, you come back here
    to have your teeth fixed now and then, buy another bag of
    pepper corns, and quietly dispose of another gold bar.  If we are
    to judge by Gibbon, you would have a better life than in +XX New
    York City (apart from those nasty Time Patrolmen on their funny
    bikes)

4.  A final thought - why pay taxes?  You set up a few dummy people,
    and whenever one of them gets audited, just go back and file a
    return for him/her!  Creating birth certificates and other
    documents should also be no great trouble.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 84 19:54:00-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Force Field

        My impression is that the previous writer (Allan Pratt?)
        implied the reason the force field must be "projected" was
        some law of physics, not the particular technology.  Surely
        we must assume that physical laws are the same everywhere
        and everywhen (at least in our universe...), otherwise this
        whole discussion is pointless.  So if Kirk et al can do it,
        the Empire can as well.

I don't know how to tell you this, but I think you should know that
Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Captain Kirk, the Enterprise, the Death
Star, etc.  DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST! They are all imaginary. All of the
episodes of Star Trek, including the movies, and all three Star Wars
movies are FICTION!  Moreover, they are SCIENCE FICTION, which means
that the writers included in the stories technology that depends on
physical laws that have not yet been discovered. Since these "laws"
were only postulated by writers who had no way of testing whether
they were actual laws of the universe, it is possible (almost
certain, in fact) that some of them are not really laws of our
universe. However, in order to enjoy the movies, we (or at least I)
like to pretend that there is a universe in which the story takes
place that has these physical laws. Also, please note the since Star
Trek and Star Wars were created by different people, they take place
in different universes with different laws (this is why the
Enterprise didn't help destroy the Death Star, as you may have
noticed.)

I hope that this explanation was not too technical for you to
understand.  If you have any more questions, find a 12 year old
science fiction fan and have him explain it to you.

                        Scott McEwan
                        pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan

        "Hitler was an idealist.""

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 84 6:24:24-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Force Fields and Reality

Does your machine REALLY eat lines? Mine only gets parts of

        I don't know how to tell you this, but I think you should
        know that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Captain Kirk, the
        Enterprise, the Death Star, etc.  DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST! They
        are all imaginary.  All of the episodes of Star Trek,
        including the movies, and all three Star Wars movies are
        FICTION!

Nawwww, I don't believe it for a minute.  Next thing, you'll be
trying to convince me that Santa and the Easter Bunny don't
exist...Sheeeeeit!

        ...we (or at least I) like to pretend that there is a
        universe in which the story takes place that has these
        physical laws.

Some of us also like to pretend that there are RATIONAL explanations
for what are obviously oversights and inconsistencies by authors who
don't bother to look ahead to the ramifications of their plots (an
impossibility given the sharpies in this group).  We delight in
trying to come up with these explanations as an exercise in
imagination and (in the case of differing viewpoints) the fine art
of persuasion.  I seem to recall an article in either this group or
net.startrek some months ago which defends this feeling more
eloquently than I can.  I like to call the practice "suspension of
suspension of disbelief"

        I hope that this explanation was not too technical for you
        to understand.  If you have any more questions, find a 12
        year old science fiction fan and have him explain it to you.

I won't comment here except to say I resemble that remark (you can
only take sarcasm so far...)

                                SJBerry

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 84 22:04:59-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!notes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Force Fields and Reality

I agree with what my opponent says. I can only add that I might sue
this infidel for definition of character.
                                                -- Allan Pratt
                                        ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!apratt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #68
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Apr 84 1402-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #68
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:
                       Books - Book Reviews,
                       Miscellaneous - Time Travel & FTL & Mxyzptlk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 22:24:31-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Beneath the Son of the Attack of the 50-Foot Book Reviews

Even more book reviews.  Again, '*' marks a collection or anthology.

Presenting:

CHRISTINE.  Stephen King.
DANSE MACABRE.  Stephen King.
PET SEMATARY.  Stephen King.
COURTSHIP RITE.  Donald Kingsbury.
THE MAN IN THE TREE.  Damon Knight.
HIS MASTER'S VOICE.  Stanislaw Lem.
*MORE TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT.  Stanislaw Lem.
TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON.  Roberta A. MacAvoy.

CHRISTINE.  Stephen King.  Signet, c1983.  The original idea of this
novel: Christine is a haunted car.  Not just any car, of course, but
a 1958 Plymouth Fury.  Painted red, of course.  The car is possessed
by the ghost of its first owner, Roland LeBay, Jr., a man of
unbelievably petty, scheming evil who reminds you of every asshole
you ever met.  LeBay lives just long enough to sell the car to young
Arnie Cunningham.  Arnie's best friend, Dennis Guilder, is forced to
watch as the car slowly takes over the mind of its young owner,
first transforming him from a luckless nerd into the boyfriend of
the prettiest girl in high school, then turning him into a... well,
that would give it away.  The characterization and setting in this
novel are more engrossing and effective than the horror; I think the
book is weak but not unlikeable.  While King never manages to
overcome the intrinsic silliness of the idea of a car that drives
around by itself killing people, the victims are nicely drawn and
feel like human beings, the kids you knew (or wanted to know) in
high school.

DANSE MACABRE.  Stephen King.  Berkley, c1981, minor revisions 1983.
This book is King's affectionate tribute to horror movies and horror
literature, covering everything up until 1980; the minor revisions
are due to some help from Dennis Etchison to correct some of the
goofs in the original hardcover edition.  The style is King's usual
down-home tone, breezy and conversational, even when the subject
matter is serious.  The book first discusses the traditional horror
themes ('and there, hanging from the doorhandle is this razor-sharp
hook!'), then it sees how they apply to the genres of early radio
shows, horror movies ('The Horror Movie as Junk Food'), television
('The Glass Teat, or, This Monster Was Brought to You by
Gainesburgers'), and literature.  King reviews some classic books
and movies and tries to explain why they work; these reviews are
punctuated with lots of anecdotes and trivia which will please many
horror buffs.  If dry literary analyses bore you then you shouldn't
be afraid of this book, but if they are your stock in trade then
beware because King has boundless contempt for that sort of thing.
On the other hand, King's taste is not as low as he likes to claim
it is, so it's hard to be offended.

PET SEMATARY.  Stephen King.  Doubleday, c1983 (hardcover).  I
borrowed this book since according to LOCUS the paperback edition
won't be out until September...  This should excuse the vagueness
about the details, since I can't look them up.  This novel was
originally written in 1979, and from the plot it might have been
written in 1879 -- it follows a classic horror plot.  A doctor and
his family move to Maine where the doctor takes up a practice as an
on-duty physician at a small college.  Their house is built on a
noisy main road, but it is only a short walk over the hill before
one reaches impenetrably deep woods.  At the end of the trail, just
before the woods start, there is a small pet cemetery (the sign has
been misspelled by the children who erected it).  Despite a
disquieting incident on the doctor's first day on his job, the
family has a pleasant time, until the family cat is run over by one
of the trucks which run down the road to the cement plant day and
night.  The old man who lives across the road persuades the doctor
to come with him at midnight and bury the cat in the REAL pet
cemetery, which lies in the heart of the woods and is protected by
monstrous Indian ghosts and demons.  The next day, the cat is alive
again...  although it is not quite the same as it was.  Then
something happens to one of the man's children...  I don't want to
give too much away, but this would make a great B movie, one of
those little flicks which you don't see except late at night on
channel 44, and only you have seen it often enough to sing its
praises.  It would be an ordinary B movie except for what happens on
the last page, nay, the last few LINES, of the book, so if you are
in the (filthy) habit of reading the last pages of a book first, you
are not likely to enjoy PET SEMATARY.  Buy the paperback.

COURTSHIP RITE.  Donald Kingsbury.  Pocket, c1982.  This book was
originally serialized in Analog, and it really fits the Analog mold
despite the apparent 'soft' subject matter.  The planet Geta is
beautiful but deadly: it has a breathable atmosphere, plenty of
water and a biosphere at the level of grasses and insects, but all
of the native animals and plants are toxic to human beings.  Only a
few Earth biota can survive such as bees and wheat, which enable
human beings to eke out a marginal existence, subsisting on Earth
plants, Earth insects and the only Earth mammal that exists -- man.
Children are raised for food.  Those who are destined to become
meals are selected by elimination in contests of intelligence and
aggression, thereby improving the gene pool.  If you can stomach
this premise, the rest of the book is quite entertaining.  The basic
story is about the group marriage of the maran-Kaiel, who are forced
by the head of the Kaiel clan to accept a different woman in place
of the one whom they had selected to fill out their 6th position.
The 'courtship rite' of the title is the game which is played
between the group-marriage and its 'fiancee' -- if she survives it,
she is deemed eligible for marriage.  The poor woman is totally
unprepared for the suit of the family, as she is both a vegetarian
(i.e. a non-cannibal, an oddity) and an atheist (someone who does
not believe that the orbiting colony spaceship is God).  Much of the
complicated plot is concerned with the technological renaissance of
the Getans and with their devious political dealings.  Some of the
book is utopian philosophy as well.  I didn't feel bad about the
philosophy (although I think it is unrealistic) but others may have
trouble with it.  Definitely worth reading.

THE MAN IN THE TREE.  Damon Knight.  Berkley, c1984.  The title of
this book of course refers to Jesus Christ, but perhaps in a
different way than you might expect.  Damon Knight postulates a man
who is born with the ability to work miracles, and asks the
question, 'What would this man's life be like?' Gene Anderson is
born in the tiny village of Dog River, Oregon, and comes to realize
at the age of four that other children cannot find the place where a
beetle might have turned left instead of right and make two beetles.
No one believes him when he claims this ability, and out of shame he
conceals it.  At the age of nine he is falsely accused of killing
the son of the village police chief and he runs away.  By this time
he realizes that he is going to grow up to be outrageously tall, and
he stands out so easily in a crowd that when the police chief comes
for his revenge he finds it difficult to hide.  Eventually he joins
a carnival, but the police chief continues to chase him.  In the end
Gene is forced to confront his tormentor and in doing so confronts
his peculiar power.  The resolution is not entirely satisfying (a
friend of mine complained that he expected a tragic end and was
disappointed, in a curious way) but the book as a whole is still
very good.

HIS MASTER'S VOICE.  Stanislaw Lem.  Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich,
c1968, English translation by Michael Kandel c1983 (hardcover -- I
understand the paperback is out now).  Faren Miller in LOCUS called
this book 'more a readable meditation than a novel' and after
reading the book I would have to add my qualified agreement.  The
book is a philosophical retrospection by one of the key members of
the 'His Master's Voice' project, the mathematician Peter Hogarth.
The HMV project was secretly founded by the US government to analyze
and (if possible) translate a signal discovered in modulated
neutrino emissions from deep space.  The military hoped to extract
technology which could be used for new weapons against the Russians.
Hogarth and the other scientists held the military in contempt, and
sought instead to interpret the message and find a way to understand
the Senders.  Several strange results came from the study of the
signal.  One result was a peculiar protoplasm-like material created
by irradiating a chemical soup with the signal.  This goo had the
peculiar characteristic of sustaining itself not through normal
biological energy cycles, but through atomic reactions.  Hogarth and
friends then discovered that the material had the capacity for
causing remote nuclear reactions: an explosion near it released its
energy at a distance.  The possibility arose that detonating a
hydrogen bomb in a roomful of the protoplasm in Nevada might cause
Moscow to be destroyed.  Hogarth and his colleagues had to decide:
what should they tell the military?  Besides this ethical problem,
Hogarth also considers the question of whether there really were any
Senders...  This novel is very difficult but I found it to be
rewarding.

*MORE TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT.  Stanislaw Lem.  HBJ, English
translations by Louis Iribarne and Michael Kandel, c1976, c1982.
The Pirx stories are much more playful than HMV, but still show a
serious undercurrent.  Pirx is a spaceship pilot at a time when the
solar system is well explored enough to be routine and other systems
are just becoming known, but there are still plenty of surprises at
home.  The first story, 'Pirx's Tale', is a fish story about finding
and losing the only alien spaceship ever seen.  All the remaining
stories deal with robots, a continuing preoccupation of Lem's, and
in particular they deal with malfunctions of robots as seen from a
human (Pirx's) viewpoint.  'The Accident' occurs on an Earthlike
planet that is just being opened for exploration; the exploration
party's robot disappears and Pirx must determine why it left as well
as where it went.  'The Hunt' occurs on the moon when a mining robot
goes insane and begins attacking transport vehicles and
communications lines as well as lunar ore; Pirx is recruited to help
track it down and destroy it, but in the process discovers that even
a mere mining robot can be more intelligent than a human being.
'The Inquest' takes Pirx to Saturn on a trip with six crewmen, some
of which are androids being tested as replacements for human crew --
but Pirx doesn't know which are which.  An accident occurs: who is
responsible? The answer is surprising.  In 'Ananke' a
robot-controlled spacecraft causes a disaster on Mars when it
suddenly reverses thrust during a landing approach because its
meteorite-detection algorithm determined that Mars was a meteorite
and hence it must take evasive action; Pirx must figure out how the
programming error occurred.  I liked these stories better than the
original TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT.

TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON.  Roberta A. MacAvoy.  Bantam, c1983.
This book is MacAvoy's first published novel, but she had written
more than a dozen novels prior to this one without getting them
published.  TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON still reads like a first
novel, however.  A slightly dotty woman comes to San Francisco to
look for her daughter, who is in some sort of trouble and has
disappeared.  She meets a reclusive Chinese man who lives in the
penthouse of her hotel, and enlists his help in searching for her
daughter.  It turns out that the daughter is a CS graduate from
Stanford who has gotten into murky dealings involving the
penetration of security on bank computers.  The fantasy element is
that the Chinese man may (or may not) be a Black Dragon in human
form, who is searching for a human who can show him the Tao.  This
curious pair travels around Palo Alto and San Francisco doing
detective work and getting into the usual thriller situations, and
falling in love.  The reviews on the cover of TEA WITH THE BLACK
DRAGON are overkill for a book that is nice but not very
substantial.

Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept.
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 15:59 EST
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: TZ Time Travel

Time and time travel were also the subjects of more than a few
Twilight Zone episodes.  Unfortunately, I don't have my handy-dandy
TZ Episode Guide with me, but here's a few that come to mind:

* The man with the slight limp who visits his childhood home where
he scares himself as a child causing him to fall off the
merry-go-round thus hurting his leg.

* The man who goes back in time to try to prevent Lincoln's
assassination.

* The 707 that goes through a time warp and tries to land at La
Guardia in the 1930's.

* Kick the Can - Old folks become kids again.

* The evil linotype machine - whatever headlines you typed on it
were sure to happen.

* The camera that took pictures of the future.

* The stop watch that could stop time (my favorite - I sure could
have used that when I had a homework assignment due in two hours
that I hadn't started yet).

There must be more . . .

And let's not forget that great Outer Limits episode which featured
an *evolution* machine.  You could hop in and depending on how the
dials were set, you could regress to a Neanderthal, an ape, a
lawyer, or going the other way you could emerge with a cranium
reminiscent of the Cone Heads (late of Saturday Night Live).  They
don't make em like that anymore.

                        - Michel
                        Speaker to Silicon

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Apr 84 20:49:41-EST
From: Bernard M. Gunther <SE.BMG%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Faster than light travel

I remember a short story a few years ago of which the gist was that
hyperspace was possible, but the limiting speed there was less than
the speed of light.  If this is the case, if we can transfer between
spaces without losing our forward velocity, we can go to such a
speed in our dimension that is faster than the speed of light in the
other dimension, switch dimensions, accelerate in the other
dimension until you have passed the speed of light in our dimension
and then switch back to ours again.

Since the formulas [Lorenz Transformations] work at speeds greater
than the speed of light, there shouldn't be any really problem.
This avoids all the trouble of having to pass the speed of light in
our dimension and still allows us to go faster than light by
bypassing the region just around the light barrier.

Bernie Gunther
(se.bmg@ee)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Apr 84 22:13:43-EST
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Mxyzptlk

I wouldn't bet my life on this, but I would be willing to bet, say,
YOUR life:

The first time Mxyzptlk appeared in Superman, his name was spelled
MxyzTPlk.  After very few (possibly 1) appearances, his name was
changed to MxyzPTlk.  Somewhere along the line, his appearance
changed drastically; possibly at the same time. The current
explanation is that Mxyzptlk (modern spelling and dress) is the
Earth-1 version while Mxyxtplk (original spelling and dress) is the
Earth-2 version. [Earth-1 and Earth-2 are parallel earth's created
to explain all of the discrepencies that cropped up in that
particular line of comics in 45+ years.] It is interesting to note
that both Mxyz's are supposed to be from 'another dimension' (name
GC'd), presumably different ones for each imp, and yet always visit
the correct earths.

Just thought I'd add to the confusion.

What ever happened to comics-lovers?

                        Jacob Butcher

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #69
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Apr 84 1257-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #69
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 25 Apr 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:
           Books - Bradbury & Dick & More Book Reviews &
                   Author Enquiries Answered,
           Television - The Return of V!,
           Miscellaneous - Getting Rich By Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 84 9:08:53 CST
From: Will Martin -- DRXAL-RI <wmartin@almsa-1>
Subject: "Bradbury 13" radio series

The local (St. Louis, MO) public radio stations have been carrying a
new NPR-produced radio drama series of Bradbury short stories called
"Bradbury 13" -- 13 episodes in all. One station has aired 3 of them
so far, the other just started with the first one. When I first
heard of this, I was delighted -- I really enjoy good radio
productions, and many of the NPR series have been excellent (Star
Wars, Joe Frank, the BBC Peter Wimsey programs, etc.).

Boy, was I disappointed! So far, I have heard three of these
Bradbury productions, and they are BAD! Slickly produced,
technically excellent, and sonically clear, but irritating and
unsatisfying to hear. The first, a non-sf story called "The Ravine",
is about several women during a mass-murderer scare (like the
Hillside Strangler or similar).  The main character was so
unsympathetic with such an irritating voice that this listener
wished she would get attacked and eliminated by the murderer after 5
minutes of the half-hour program. She didn't, unfortunately. I've
repressed the second episode completely; can't even remember the
title. The third, Bradbury's famous sf story, "The Veldt", was
better than the preceeding two, but still so far inferior to the
printed word and unpleasant to listen to that I have no desire to
hear it again. (I had started to tape all these, but am taping over
the previous episodes as I have no desire to keep them.)

I will continue to listen to these in the hope that some jewel will
be found amongst the garbage, but my expectations fall steadily.  I
am submitting this to reassure any sf-lovers readers who may have
read or heard of this series, but not had a chance to hear the
episodes, that they should not feel too bad about missing this.
There probably is somebody out there who has been listening to these
programs and thinks they are the greatest thing since sliced bread,
but, to me at least, these are real losers.

Will

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1984 12:16-EST
From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-G.ARPA
Subject: Man in the High Castle

Have you ever been with a crowd of people whom you didn't know all
that well, and somebody tells a joke, and everyone thinks it's very
funny except you, and you just put this lame half-smile on your face
and hope nobody notices?  I just read Philip Dick's "The Man in the
High Castle" and got just that feeling.  Why is this book his
"greatest masterpiece"?  What was the point?  Somebody please tell
me -- I had to force myself through 3/4's of the book, and only the
last 3 pages were interesting.  And I still didn't understand.  The
picture on the cover was nice, though.

Oh, yeah, one more thing.  What makes this book science fiction?
(Other than the label on the front cover that says "Berkley (sic)
science fiction")

        Bob      (Bob.Colwell@cmu-cs-g.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 22:16:00-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Son of the Attack of the 50-Foot Book Reviews

I hate to provide evidence that I have any spare time but I had to
get some more book reviews off my chest.  This time the reviews come
without silly ratings points -- back to the old UC Santa Cruz
format.  I still use an asterisk to mark collections or anthologies,
though.

In this episode:

AGAINST INFINITY.  Gregory Benford.
NO ENEMY BUT TIME.  Michael Bishop.
*DARK COMPANIONS.  Ramsey Campbell.
THE UNTELEPORTED MAN.  Philip K. Dick.
THE SILENT GONDOLIERS.  William Goldman (writing as S. Morgenstern).
A STORM OF WINGS.  M. John Harrison.
RIDDLEY WALKER.  Russell Hoban.

AGAINST INFINITY.  Gregory Benford.  Pocket, c1983.  Benford's last
novel, TIMESCAPE, won an award, and this novel is a strong
contender.  Manuel Lopez is born at Sidon Settlement on Ganymede at
a time when Ganymede is being terraformed.  From the time he is a
young boy, Manuel finds himself caught up in the quest for a great
motile alien relic, called the Aleph.  Benford does an excellent job
of rendering the changing ecology and sociology of Ganymede and the
chase scenes are really beautiful.  The only problem with the story
is that it devotes its time to Manuel's obsession with the Aleph at
the expense of enlarging on its interesting ideas of the development
of society in the spacefaring age.  Still a very good book.  (By the
way, the title seems a bit dumb unless you make the connection with
the Borges story, 'The Aleph'.  In comparison with Borges's Aleph,
Benford's Aleph is a bit clunky, but still serviceable.)

NO ENEMY BUT TIME.  Michael Bishop.  Pocket, c1982.  Despite the
rave reviews on its cover, this novel leaves me feeling somewhat
uncomfortable.  John Monegal has dreamed of peculiar animals in a
strange, African setting since he was a child.  When he is an adult,
he discovers that his dreams are faithful reproductions of
conditions in the Pleistocene, back when humans were hominids.  He
is sent on a field expedition into the past (using a method
reminiscent of Jack Finney's TIME AND AGAIN) where he meets and
joins a band of protohumans.  The tale of his gradual acceptance
into this culture and eventual mating with the dominant female is
intertwined with the tale of his peculiar childhood; both
experiences require the overcoming of racial (species?) barriers.
The narrative is graceful and occasionally charming, but it is
sometimes difficult to follow because of the split into childhood
flashbacks and adult experiences.  Another problem is that the story
is weak on science -- perhaps Bishop decided that since time-travel
is unscientific anyway, it doesn't matter how silly the
'science' gets.  And as long as I'm complaining, the description of
the government of Bishp's mythical African nation is parody and jars
with the rest of the book.  Not bad but I was hoping for better.

*DARK COMPANIONS.  Ramsey Campbell.  Macmillan, c1982.  Ramsey
Campbell is a British horror writer whose stories have such a thick
and menacing atmosphere that the very words want to crawl off the
page and choke you to death.  This collection (which I bought
remaindered in hardback, sigh) contains stories from 1973 to 1980,
including three award winners, 'In the Bag', 'The Chimney' and
'Mackintosh Willy'.  Campbell's writing style is wonderful; it
reminds me of one genre of Fritz Leiber's stories (e.g. 'Black
Glass', 'A Bit of the Dark World') where the horror comes as much
from the way in which the story is told as in the content.  All of
the stories are very, very nasty and one has to be brave to read
them on a dark night.  'Down There' will make you nervous about
working late in a dark and empty building (which I do often); 'The
Little Voice' will give you a good idea why it's not so nice to be
schizophrenic; 'The Depths' explains why newspaper articles so often
sound like horror stories; and 'The Companion', a great story, is
about a man's last carnival ride.  These stories are so well done
that they've changed my opinion of the horror genre.  [Why is it so
hard to find Campbell's novels in this country?  PS, I can't resist
quoting Stephen King: '"The Companion" may be the best horror tale
to be written in English in the last thirty years'...]

THE UNTELEPORTED MAN.  Philip K. Dick.  Berkley, c1966 and c1983.
This reprinting of an 18-year old Dick novel is just a part of a
renaissance in Dick reprints that might have raised Dick out of
poverty were he is still living.  In the coming year or so we should
see editions of Dick novels like CLANS OF THE ALPHANE MOON (funny),
THE PENULTIMATE TRUTH (sad), TIME OUT OF JOINT (scary) and THE MAN
WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE (previously unpublished).  Of
course not all of Dick's books are equally good, since they were
frequently written in a single draft over the course of a month or
two, pounded out to make a few bucks to pay alimony and buy food.
THE UNTELEPORTED MAN is one of Dick's lesser novels.  Apart from the
fact that this edition is published from a manuscript that is
missing four pages (introducing breaks in the text with 'See note on
page V', one such break in a really critical part of the climax),
the book suffers from being very uneven and confusing.  The excess
population of Earth is being teleported to a colony planet.
Rachmael ben Applebaum is the bankrupt owner of the last spaceship
company, and he wants to prove that teleportees are really being
transmitted to nowhere; they cease to exist.  What actually happens,
of course, is a very disconcerting LSD trip.  The book never really
coheres, and the style undergoes an abrupt change in the middle
which leads one to wonder about Dick's own chemical intake.  You
probably shouldn't buy this unless you are a real Dick collector.

THE SILENT GONDOLIERS.  William Goldman (writing as S. Morgenstern).
Del Rey, c1983 (hardcover).  According to the biography: 'Many
critics of European literature in general and Florinese prose in
particular rate S. Morgenstern as a modern master.  He is known in
this country primarily for his classic tale of true love and high
adventure, THE PRINCESS BRIDE.' THE SILENT GONDOLIERS is not (alas)
a sequel to THE PRINCESS BRIDE, but it is a parody of historical
romances in a similar vein.  Once upon a time, all Venetian
gondoliers sang; they were such good singers they made Caruso
embarrassed to even chirp.  Along came Luigi, the kid with the goony
smile who, given a boat and a canal, could beat absolutely anyone in
any contest of gondola piloting.  Alas, Luigi is tone deaf...  Will
he ever find fame and fortune as a gondolier? THE SILENT GONDOLIERS
is as funny as THE PRINCESS BRIDE but it lacks the manic pace of
invention that was one of the latter book's great attractions.  It's
still worth buying, though (and it has very nice illustrations).

A STORM OF WINGS.  M. John Harrison.  Pocket, c1980.  I bought this
book on the recommendation of Algis Budrys in the F&SF book review
-- I find that I often agree with him.  Not this time, however.
This book has to be the worst-written excuse for pseudo-literary
trash I have read in years.  The story, as near as I can make it
out, concerns the city of Viriconium at a far future time when Earth
culture has degenerated into a feudal society.  So-called reborn men
were preserved at a past time and have been resurrected to try and
save the current world, but unfortunately the resurrection damaged
their psyches in such a way that they are able to do little more
than wander around mumbling incoherent bits of meaningless poetry.
Two reborns, a dwarf, a ghost, an absent-minded wizard and a (well,
relatively) normal man undertake to save reality from an invasion of
insectile aliens from an alternate universe.  Harrison's main
problem is that he can't write dialogue; all his characters act like
they have speech impediments.  His descriptions are sometimes pretty
in a poetic way, but he is so generous with bizarre metaphors and
odd punctuation that his narrative often reads like extracts from a
freshman creative writing class.  Miss this one.

RIDDLEY WALKER.  Russell Hoban.  Washington Square Press, c1980
(trade).  This is a book in the Post-Holocaust Fable genre, with the
curious distinction that it is written entirely in post-holocaust
dialect.  In plot and setting and mood it reminds me somewhat of
John Crowley's ENGINE SUMMER.  Riddley Walker is the son of the
village 'connexion man' or shaman.  His father dies in an accident
while helping to excavate buried metal from the old times, and
Riddley, at the age of 12, suddenly finds that he is the village's
new connexion man.  But when he is forced to go back to digging
metal for the local warlord, Riddley rebels and runs off to join the
Pack, a roving tribe of (apparently) telepathic dogs.  He has many
adventures and is involved in an effort to recreate the '1 Big 1',
the explosive which destroyed the old civilization of 'Inland'.
This is all hard to follow, mainly because the story is grittily
realistic in that it is the first person narrative of a twelve year
old who uses a language barely recognizable as English.  The
language is actually easier to follow than the symbolism, which is
awfully heavy at times.  But in general I liked it, although it is
definitely not recommended for people who hate John Crowley's
writing.

Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept.
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 19:04:07-EST
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Author Enquiries

Responses to recent Author Enquiries:

1.  The story about the man who was telepathically in contact with
    his past and future selves is

        Now +n Now -n

    by Robert Silverberg.  My copy is in Nova 2, edited by Harry
    Harrison.

2.  The story about the man who invested enough money in the past
    to pay for his trip back there is

        Compounded Interest

    by Mack Reynolds.  My copy is in SF - the Best of the Best, ed
    Judith Merrill, but the citation is (c) 1956 Fantasy House.

Most of us as schoolboys calculated the value of "Caesar's penny",
invested on his visit in 55 BC an some trivial rate of compound
interest.  However, the seminal story is of course H G Wells' When
The Sleeper Wakes.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1984 19:08-EST
From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H.ARPA
Subject: V is back!

        Here in Pittsburgh, I noticed an ad for a new SF series on
TV yesterday.  I got really excited, thinking "this is neat stuff!",
but, boy was I excited at the end of the ad (which lasted >2 minutes
by the way), when I found out it was the sequel to V.  It is called,
"V - The Final Battle" and will be airing in about 2 weeks.  (I
don't recall exactly when) Keep your eyes peeled.

                                        _emt

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 24 Apr 84 9:04:01 EST
Subject: Buy a sheet of Zepps...

Good Lord, an opportunity to weld SF and stamp collecting, my two
most incompatible hobbies...

Hey guys, forget selling aluminum to Napoleon and staking claim to
Gondwanaland.  It's much easier than that:

Prowl the hamfests and computer shows and buy up a hundred or so
8080A chips with 1974/1975 build dates on them.  These days you can
get them for a buck apiece or less.  Hop into your whatchamacallit
and land in mid-1975.  Call a few electronics parts brokers and
offer to sell at $150-$170 per.  You'll get it; street price back
then was in excess of $220 apiece.  This nets you about $15,000 1975
dollars.  Now spend a day or so in downtown Chicago munching burgers
and going from bank to bank buying and selling $50 and $100 bills
until you change your hoard into series 1930 bills.  I remember
buying a typewriter in 1971 with four $100 bills, two of which were
series 1930.  This makes it unnecessary to trade in modern bills for
diamonds or somesuch.

Now the coup de grace: Buzz back to 1930 and hit a few major metro
post offices, buying up sheets of the Graf Zeppelin airmail stamps.
Get about fifty of the $1.30 denomination (fifty sheets, that is)
and about 35 of the $2.60 denomination.  That will about exhaust
your $15,000.  Now come home.  Fly to Switzerland and put ONE of
those sheets up for auction with a Swiss auction house.  It should
realize about half a million dollars at auction, as I have never
heard of a full mint sheet of Zepps surviving to the present.  Buy a
modest Swiss villa and put the rest in a bank.  When the money runs
low, auction off another one.  It's all done anonymously, and of
course the second and subsequent sheets won't realize as much as the
first one, and in a few years the market for Zepps won't be what it
used to be.

But I think that would make me pretty happy.  I'd even get a chance
to put one of the guldurned things in my stamp album...

--Jeff Duntemann    duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #70
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Apr 84 1124-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #70
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
                 SPECIAL ISSUE - More Book Reviews

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 22:45:40-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Return of the Son of the Attack of the 50-Foot Book Reviews
Subject: (in 3-D)

Yet more book reviews.  I suppose I should remind everybody that the
stupid asterisks mark collections or anthologies.

Some people don't like to be kept guessing, so:

FEVRE DREAM.  George R. R. Martin.
THE ANUBIS GATES.  Tim Powers.
*SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE AND OTHER STORIES.  Tom Reamy.
THE WILD SHORE.  Kim Stanley Robinson.
THE SEX SPHERE.  Rudy Rucker.
THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE.  Norman Spinrad.
*GENE WOLFE'S BOOK OF DAYS.  Gene Wolfe.
*THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO.  Gene Wolfe.

FEVRE DREAM.  George R. R. Martin.  Pocket, c1982.  Haven't vampires
been beaten to death over the last several years, what with 'SALEM'S
LOT, GHOST STORY, THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY and other novels repeatedly
dragging the poor creatures from their graves for one more dance?
FEVRE DREAM is at least a decidedly different vampire novel.
Although it follows the recent convention of treating vampires as
being unsupernatural creatures (in FEVRE DREAM we find that vampires
avoid the sun because they get terrible sunburns, they don't turn
into bats and they are long-lived but mortal) this novel goes
further in that it gives a glimpse of what vampire society would be
like.  In the year 1857, Captain Abner Marsh is hired by one Joshua
York to commission and then captain the fastest and fanciest
riverboat ever to sail the Mississippi, the FEVRE DREAM.  York's
peculiar nocturnal habits eventually lead Marsh to suspect that the
reclusive financier is a vampire.  Marsh confronts him, and instead
of being attacked and disposed of, Marsh learns that York is a kind
of vampire vegetarian -- he has discovered a compound which when
ingested by a vampire prevents him or her from lusting after blood.
York, it seems, is on an idealistic quest to meet all the vampires
in America and convince them to give up killing humans for their
blood.  Unfortunately for both York and Marsh, there are vampires
who kill less for nutrition than for sport...  Martin does a good
job of rendering the period atmosphere and of stirring up suspense,
and the depiction of vampires as real creatures is the best I've
read in the genre.  A fun book to read.

THE ANUBIS GATES.  Tim Powers.  Ace, 1983.  This book is impossible
to describe.  I will make a stab at it, but failure is
predestined...  Suppose that reality is determined by what people
believe.  In the past, say, there really were vast and powerful gods
such as Horus and Ra and Anubis, but their powers have dwindled over
time until they are almost insignificant.  Yet suppose that you are
a follower of the ancient gods, and you have discovered a spell that
may allow you to travel back in time to the days of the gods'
greatness.  Magic is almost dead, but in one last gasp you manage to
open a hole to the past...  and that's when things begin to go
wrong.  Instead of opening a conduit to 4000 BC, you have blasted
time with a shotgun, so it is full of holes and creatures from
various times begin popping up inappropriately.  Now, imagine that
you are Brendan Doyle, a professor of English at Cal State
Fullerton, who is asked by a mysterious millionaire to give a
private lecture on Samuel Taylor Coleridge only to find that part of
your task is to escort paying visitors to see the REAL Coleridge
lecture in 1810.  After you arrive in 19th century England, wouldn't
you be just the least bit tempted to stay behind and fool around?
The fun begins when Doyle is abducted by agents of the Egyptian
sorcerers, who think that Doyle can help them achieve their real
goal of destroying the present reality and returning the ancient
gods to power...  The rest of the novel is one pulp thriller scene
after another, and the plot twists come so fast and so inventively
that the reader gets carried away despite the preposterousness of
the premises.  If you don't require every book you read to add to
your understanding of the meaning of life, you'll get much pleasure
out of THE ANUBIS GATES.

*SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE AND OTHER STORIES.  Tom Reamy.  Ace, c1979.
Tom Reamy died at the age of 42 in 1977, leaving behind one novel,
the intriguing but flawed BLIND VOICES, and one story collection,
this one.  The collection is also flawed -- the biggest flaw is the
sick Harlan Ellison introduction.  I used to like Ellison's
introductions in DV, but this introduction is just terrible.  If you
ignore the introduction there are still a few problems but the good
parts are really good.  The first story, 'Twilla', is about a
mysterious little girl who arrives in Hawley, Kansas, and the
elementary school teacher begins to suspect the unpleasantness
behind the facade.  This story, like BLIND VOICES, succeeds in
capturing just the right atmosphere of the small-town Kansas that
Reamy grew up in.  'Under the Hollywood Sign' is a nasty horror
story that preys on heterosexuals' fear of homosexuality.  'Beyond
the Cleft' is a gruesome bit of terror that takes place in a North
Carolina town where children have become cannibals.  'San Diego
Lightfoot Sue' is the story of an amateur witch who casts a spell to
find true love, but it's not the light humorous story you might
expect -- in fact it's quite moving.  'The Detweiler Boy' is about a
hunchbacked boy who seems to have some odd connection to serial
murders in LA (very scary).  Three of the other pieces are light,
throwaway stories ('The Sweetwater Factor', 'The Mistress of
Windraven' and 'Waiting for Billy Star').  One story is dumb and
forgettable ('Dinosaurs') and two are so awful as to be truly
embarrassing ('Insects in Amber' and the unfinished movie outline,
'2076: Blue Eyes'); the book would have been much stronger if the
editor (Ellison? Virginia Kidd?) had left these stories and the
introduction out.  The book is good, but if you want to get
acquainted with Reamy, buy BLIND VOICES instead.

THE WILD SHORE.  Kim Stanley Robinson.  Ace, c1984.  A short story
by Kim Stanley Robinson called 'Venice Drowned' appeared in UNIVERSE
11 (edited by Terry Carr), and was collected in THE BEST SF OF THE
YEAR #11 (also edited by Terry Carr).  This story was a moody
description of an Italian tour guide and his rich Japanese visitors,
diving to the submerged city of Venice in the year 2050 or so.  This
story left several troublesome questions behind -- what was
responsible for the change in the weather that so hurt Venice?  Why
are obnoxious Japanese scavenging the art treasures of Venice
instead of obnoxious Americans?  THE WILD SHORE (first of the new
Ace Specials, edited by (guess who?)  Terry Carr) has some answers
to these questions.  THE WILD SHORE is the story of Henry Fletcher,
a young man who lives in the tiny fishing village of Onofre, sixty
miles or so north of the small town of San Diego, twenty miles from
the fringes of the wasteland that is Orange County.  Henry struggles
in the fishing boats for most of each day, with a little time left
to take lessons from one of the few remaining survivors of the old
times, Tom Barnard.  One day two men arrive over the railway from
the south on a handcart.  They bring word of the American Resistance
and the world beyond the quarantine that cuts America off from its
neighbors.  Henry and Tom travel to San Diego to meet the Mayor, and
gradually they begin to piece together the picture.  According to
legend, one bright day in 1984 or 1985, thousands of neutron weapons
hidden inside identical Chevy vans went off simultaneously, all
across the country.  In the explosions and subsequent panic, almost
the entire population of the country died.  Is this what really
happened?  Why was the country never rebuilt?  This is really a very
well-written book, and full of beautiful images (such as a walk
through the scorched ruins of UCSD :-).  If you liked AGAINST
INFINITY, you will really like THE WILD SHORE.

THE SEX SPHERE.  Rudy Rucker.  Ace, c1983.  This has to be the
dirtiest science fiction novel I have read in a long time (maybe
ever).  It is also very surreal, and very funny, and appropriately
Rucker was the winner of the First Annual Philip K. Dick Award.  A
few fragments of the plot will convince you that the author is
totally insane...  A physicist and a mathematician working in Italy
succeed in isolating a piece of hypermatter and force it to lodge in
our universe.  The hypermatter promptly eats the physicist.
Meanwhile, Alwin Bitter, an American mathematician who teaches in
Heidelberg, is on vacation in Rome.  He goes out for a walk late at
night after having sex with his wife and is accosted by a pimp.  The
pimp saves him from having to get involved in a minor traffic
accident and to be nice Alwin lets him drive him back to the hotel.
The pimp turns out to be a member of a gang of kidnappers who ransom
people for money, and he chains Alwin up in a cell beneath the
Colosseum.  But not for long, because Alwin is 'rescued' by the
radical Green Death gang and forced to help build an atomic bomb.
Just as the bomb is about to go off, Alwin is saved by being
transported into the fourth dimension.  This goes on, and on, and
on, until reality flickers and nearly fades out.  I really don't
have words to describe just how wild this book is.  Buy it and find
out.

THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE.  Norman Spinrad.  Pocket, c1983.  This book
comes with a lot of good reviews on the cover -- does it deserve
them?  You'll have to decide for yourself, because this is the sort
of book you'll either love or you'll hate.  Genro Kane Gupta is the
Void Captain of the DRAGON ZEPHYR, a ship that travels between the
stars carrying both cargo and passengers, in a manner not unlike a
steamboat.  The steerage passengers are in suspended animation,
while the first class passengers live it up in a very stylish way in
the forward cabins and lounges.  The Captain has the function of
being the host of the party, while the Domo is the hostess -- the
two set the style and the mood for the guests.  The Captain has a
subsidiary duty to press the button which activates the hyperspatial
Jump that takes the ship across the Galaxy in hops of 4 light-years
at a time.  But there is more to the hyperspatial travel than meets
the eye: it also requires the participation of a Pilot, who is
physiologically linked into the ship's Jump circuitry.  The Pilot
(who must be female) enters a state of ecstasy or nirvana which is
used by the alien Jump hardware to travel through hyperspace.  The
Pilot usually is a haggard junkie who lives only for Jumps and is
ostracized by the passengers and the rest of the crew; but on the
voyage which the novel is concerned with, Captain Genro is suprised
to discover that the Pilot is a quite comely and intelligent woman,
and he makes the terrible mistake of falling in love with her.
Loving this Pilot is a mistake not just because it earns the Captain
the scorn of his associates, but also because she has a peculiar and
deadly ambition which can only be satisfied through the Captain...
This is certainly Spinrad's best book.  I rather liked it, but you
should be wary of the strange dialect used by the narrator (I had
fun with it) and you may find the physical and philosophical
underpinnings of Spinrad's universe hard to digest (I did but I
managed to live with them).

*GENE WOLFE'S BOOK OF DAYS.  Gene Wolfe.  Doubleday, c1981
(hardcover).  The stories in this book vary in age from 1968 to 1981
and they vary considerably in quality, too.  It's clear in many of
these stories that Wolfe was struggling for the voice which he later
found and used to great effect in works like PEACE and THE FIFTH
HEAD OF CERBERUS; I don't think this is as good a collection as THE
ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES, which I
highly recommend.  The stories have a minor gimmick -- they are set
around the holidays of the year, from Lincoln's Birthday to New
Year's Eve.  Sometimes this fits nicely and sometimes not.  The
really good stories outshine the gimmick.  'The Changeling' is a
story about a Korean War vet who comes home to find that some things
are different but some disturbingly aren't.  ('The Changeling' is
set in the same conceptual universe as the novel PEACE, and helps to
explain some of the latter...) 'Forlesen' is a very disquieting but
also funny story about a man who can't seem to remember why he
exists.  'The War Beneath the Tree' is a funny and touching story
about the struggle of sentient Christmas toys to survive through the
next Christmas.  'Car Sinister' is a little amusement that purports
to divulge the way REAL cars are manufactured.  If you do get the
book, DON'T skip the introduction, which if you ask me is worth the
price of the book in itself.

*THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO.  Gene Wolfe.  Ziesing Bros., c1983.  This
book puts together three of the stories from the collection THE
ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES, all with
the conceit that their title is some permutation of 'The Island of
Doctor Death'.  The story behind these stories is that in 1971
Wolfe's story 'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories' was up
for a Nebula award in the novella category, and at the banquet Isaac
Asimov mistakenly announced that Wolfe had won, when in fact there
had been 'no award'.  The embarrassment must have been agonizing.
Joe Hensley later suggested to Wolfe that he should write a story
called 'The Death of Dr. Island', since it would win easily on the
sympathy vote.  Wolfe wrote the story, turning 'The Island of Dr.
Death and Other Stories' inside out, and the resulting tale actually
did win the Nebula.  'After that,' says Wolfe, 'a hundred readers or
so challenged me to write "The Doctor of Death Island",' and he did,
and it is collected here with the other two stories.  Superficially
the stories are very different.  'The Island of Doctor Death and
Other Stories' is about a child who lives with his divorced mother
and discovers he has a way of entering the world of the tacky
adventure paperbacks he loves to read (or perhaps vice versa).  'The
Death of Dr. Island' is about a psychotic teenager who has had
split-brain surgery and is consigned to a peculiar hospital in orbit
about Jupiter, a hospital which has the form of a sentient island
floating on the waters which cover the inside of a giant transparent
sphere.  The boy discovers that he is being used as a tool to help
another patient.  'The Doctor of Death Island' is about Alan Alvard,
the man who invented talking books -- books which have microscopic
computer speech circuitry in their spines and endpapers, and can
discuss with you the contents of their pages.  Alvard has been been
sentenced to life for killing his business partner, and when it
becomes apparent that he too will die (of cancer), the court rules
that he can use his funds to be frozen until such time as he can be
revivified and cured.  When Alvard awakes he discovers that he has
been cured and granted immortality to boot, but his life sentence
without parole still stands, and worse his patent has been
circumvented and he is penniless.  Alvard then concocts a wicked
revenge on an almost- illiterate society...  These are three of the
best stories from THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND
OTHER STORIES (not THE best story, which I contend is 'The Eyeflash
Miracles'), and they provide a belated hardcover edition for some
excellent work (ISLAND was a paperback original).  The cover art is
well done and amusing, and the book mark is a clever play on 'The
Doctor of Death Island'.  I had no hesitations about buying THE
WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO.  [And DON'T miss the introduction!  More
connections with 'The Changeling'...]

Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept.
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #71
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Apr 84 1156-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #71
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Apr 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:
        Books - MacAvoy & Robinson (2 msgs) & Book Enquiry &
                Enquiry Answered,
        Films - Faithful SF Films (2 msgs) & Star Wars,
        Miscellaneous - Frobs Vs Fobs & Comics-Lovers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 10:15:24-PST
From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: TEA rebuttal

        In regards to Donn Seeley's review of R. A. MacAvoy's TEA
WITH THE BLACK DRAGON: I think the review missed the mark.
        In fact, reviews like this which do little more than
summarize the plot of a book have never impressed me as being fair
to the author.  The plots of many of my favorite books sound pretty
trite when put through such a narrow filter.
        To me, the impact of a book comes from a less tangible
source; from the writer's commitment to the story.  This expresses
itself in the writer's ability to conjure true-to-life characters,
to engage them in dialogue in which I feel a part, and then to
confront them with problems to draw them out of themselves.
        If the writer fails in these, then I am tempermentally
incapable of reading the story.  For that reason, two out of every
three books I start end up in the trash by page seven.  However, any
story succeeding in these things finds a home on my bookshelves.
        TEA is the kind of book I read with pleasure.  The
characters begin to come to life in the first sentence and are
allowed to grow and to change throughout the book.  The dialogues
are fun to read, and the plot, though simple, is calculated to
explore each of the character's strengths and weaknesses.  It is the
kind of book which goes onto a smallish shelf I have for books to be
re-read every couple years.
        That Seeley's review summarizes the main woman character
(Martha) as "dotty" or the main man (Mayland) as "reclusive" tells
me the two of us read distinctly different books inside the same
cover.  No mention is made of the fact that this love story involves
two people over the age of 50 (one possibly much older), or that the
most intriguing mystery is Mayland Long's past.  Mention of the
distinctly Zen/Tao flavor of the book is also omitted.
        In addition, Seeley refers to the cover blurbs as
"overkill."  Do I rightly hear him saying the book did not deserve
the favorable reviews it received from others (which is tactless at
best)?  Am I then to assume that nominations received by TEA for the
Nebula, the Hugo, the John Campbell, the Phillip K. Dick, and the
Compton Crook awards are mere gaudy trappings?
        Sorry, but for all these reasons I feel the review was
unfair to a very good book.

Ron Cain
CAIN@SRI-AI

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 15:44:25-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!palmer @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf)

    Spider Robinson compiled an anthology ("The Best Of All Possible
Worlds", Ace books, 198?) containing good but relatively unknown
stories.  These include Heinlein's "The Man Who Travelled In
Elephants", Niven's "Inconstant Moon", an extract of William Golding
(S. Morgenstern)'s "The Princess Bride", and many other's you may
not have heard of.

    I've only seen one copy of this book (mine), but that one copy
says that there will be a sequel ("The Second Best..." perhaps :-)
).

    This guy has taste, and I will buy the sequel if and when I see
it, does anybody know anything about it?

                AdvThanksance
                    David Palmer

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 84 10:10:26-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf)

I heard that the sequel to the book 'Best of All Possible Worlds'
was canceled because the original just didn't sell as well as hoped.
Oh, well.

>From under the bar at Callahan's:              Chuq Von Rospach
{amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui       (408) 733-2600 x242

Never give your heart to a stranger, unless you are sure that you
are dead.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 84 13:32:00 EST
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Pluribus?

Hello,
        I'm looking for information on a book called PLURIBUS by
Michael Kurland.  All I have is the cover, painted by Boris, which
has among other things two space stations that look like Deathstars.
        I work on a machine called Pluribus so I've kept the
cover around.  Also if you can tell me where the name comes from
in the book.  Any info would be appreciated...
                                                craig.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 25 April 1984, 17:19-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr at WHITE>
Subject: Author Enquiries

    Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 19:04:07-EST
    From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
    Subject: Author Enquiries

    ... The story about the man who invested enough money in the
    past to pay for his trip back there is "Compounded Interest" by
    Mack Reynolds.

    Most of us as schoolboys calculated the value of "Caesar's
    penny", invested on his visit in 55 BC an some trivial rate of
    compound interest.  However, the seminal story is of course H G
    Wells' When The Sleeper Wakes.

Who is the author of "John Jones' Dollar"?  This is basically the
same story (one US dollar invested at 3% (its an old story) held in
a trust for the his first decendant of the fiftieth generation).
The story is set during a history lecture (in a distributed, video
linked class).  The twist is that the story is not about finances
but rather the political structure of their society and how it came
about.

- Craig (no relation to Jack) Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 12:00:15-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: faithful SF films

from a friend of mine off the net:

        The BBC version of THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS (which recently
        ran on the Arts and Entertainment Channel) was a
        exceptionally faithful adaptation of Wyndham's novel.  Most
        SF films made from novels are not.  What are some films that
        HAVE been faithful to the original work (novel, short story,
        etc.)?  (Stick to SF, fantasy, or horror, please.)

        I am NOT talking about novelizations, nor am I asking for
        which films are 'best'.  IT HAPPENS EVERY SPRING is very
        accurate to the novel (I've been told), but it isn't
        particularly high-quality.

        Two suggestions are TERROR OF FRANKENSTEIN (a 1974
        Swedish-Irish co-production) and the BBC version of COUNT
        DRACULA (with Louis Jourdan).  They each diverge somewhat
        from the original work but are closer than any other
        adaptation of each that I've seen.  I haven't read the book
        THINGS TO COME, but I would guess that the film might be
        faithful--Wells wrote the screenplay.  Has anyone read it
        who can tell me?

                                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                                hocse!lznv!ecl

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 14:00:31-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hound!rfg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films

"When Worlds Collide" was pretty close to the book by Balmer (or was
it Wylie?...or both?).
Of course, many sf films are "right on" the book because the book
was written after (or as part of) the film). Sometimes sf films are
based on elements of several "books" hooked together.  I used to be
able to demonstrate that thesis with "2001" but I have forgotten,
now.

hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 19:27:52-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.Trei@CU20B>
Subject: Our continuing plan to blow up the Earth...

        Well, it turns out that I am not the first to work out how
much energy is required to blow up a planet. Jef Poskanzker did it a
couple years ago, and much more correctly than my method. I assumed
that the velocity which each fragment must attain was the same.
This is not so; for a piece of planet at a given depth below the
surface, the effective escape velocity is that required to escape
the gravity generated only by the mass closer to the center than it.
Thus, the amount of energy required drops off towards zero for
peices nearer and nearer the center, and the calculation becomes
non-trivial.

     Date: 20 Apr 84 15:48:38 PST (Friday)
     From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@XEROX.ARPA>
     Subject: Death Star weapon.
     To: oc.trei%cu20b@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA

     Re: I wonder how many times in the past someone has actually
     done this calculation!

     At least once:

          Date: 21 Mar 1982 23:12:33-PST
          From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
          To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
          Subject: Planetary Binding Energy

          A while ago, I mentioned a back-of-the-envelope
          calculation I once did to figure out the relative
          strengths of the gravitational and chemical binding
          energies which hold our planet together.  I claimed that
          the two binding energies were, to within an order of
          magnitude, equal.  Well, I did the computation again, and
          it looks like I was just barely correct.  As I figure it,
          the chemical energy binding the Earth is one-tenth of the
          gravitational energy.  Thus the two are the same to within
          an order of magnitude, but for all practical purposes the
          gravitational energy dominates and our Earth behaves like
          a ball of liquid instead of a ball of rock.

          To compute the gravitatonal binding energy, I integrated
          the potential energies of thin spherical shells of matter
          relative to the matter they enclose.  Assuming a
          constant-density, perfectly-spherical body, the mass of a
          shell is (WARNING: fixed-width font required beyond this
          point!)
                                           2
                        ms = density * 4 pi r  dr  ,
          and the mass inside a shell is
                                                 3
                          m = density * 4 / 3 pi r   .
           The potential energy of ms relative to m is
                                 G m ms
                       Ums =  -  ------   .
                                   r

          Then the total potential energy is the integral
          from r = 0 to r = R of Ums.  The final result is
                                         2         2  5
                            U = - G density 16/15 pi R .

          This looks strange, but the dimensions are mass *
          length**2 / time**2, which is energy, which is what we
          want.  For the Earth, with a radius of 6.37e8 cm and a
          density of 5.52 gm/cm**3, the result is 2.24e39 ergs.

          The chemical binding energy looked a lot harder to compute
          to me, so I settled for a really simple-minded method: I
          figured out how much energy it would take to raise the
          temperture of the planet by 5000 degrees C.  At that
          temperture very few things are chemically bound.  This
          probably is a gross over-estimate, but that's ok because
          it still turns out smaller than the gravitational energy.
          For the Earth, with a mass of 5.98e27 gm, and an
          arbitrarily chosen specific heat of 0.2 cal / gm degC, the
          energy required is 2e38 ergs - one tenth the gravitational
          energy.

          So, the total binding energy of the Earth is about 2.4e39
          ergs, which is quite an impressive ammount.  If Alderaan
          was about the same size as Earth, the Death Star would
          have had to use 100 billion tons of antimatter fuel to
          destroy it!  However, a cheaper method would be to trigger
          a fusion chain reaction in the planet's oceans, as some
          thought would happen here on Earth when we tested the
          H-bomb.  Fusing all the hydrogen in the Earth's oceans
          would release 1e41 ergs, more than enough to disassemble
          the planet.

          Cheerfully yours,

          Jef

     Note: your number for the gravitational binding energy,
     3.8307e33 Joules, or 3.8307e40 ergs, is ten times higher than
     mine.  Your figure for the mass needed to convert to energy is
     one hundred times higher, because I slipped a decimal point.  I
     should have said one TRILLION tons of antimatter, and a like
     quantity of matter.

     Ave Discordia!

     Jef

        An interesting corollary of this is the observation that a
hollow sphere puts no net gravitational force on an object ANYWHERE
within it. This blows all the hollow-earth-civilisation stories out
of the water.

        Whether it takes 4e33 or 2e32 Joules, thats still many many
cords of kindling. Here are one or two other methods:


1.  A ray which depresses (or removes) either the negative charge on
the electron or the postive charge of the proton. The resulting
electrostatic repulsion would tear the planet apart VERY
effectively. Larry Niven is also responsible for this one, again as
a handweapon. (He likes powerful guns!).  Back when the
late-lamented Steady State Universe theory still had a few diehard
supporters, one of the mechanisms they proposed for the continuous
expansion was a slight disparity between the charges of protons and
neutrons.  A VERY small difference is all that is required.

2.  Asimov, in 'The Gods Themselves' had the Earth almost being
destroyed as a byproduct of an energy-production system which had
only one byproduct; the strength of the weak nuclear force was
locally decreased (increased?). This meant that nuclear fusion
became easier and easier as time went on. Indeed, had they left the
generator running too long, lighting a cigarette could have started
a thermonuclear chain reaction. A ray which could do this could
cause a VERY BIG BANG.

        Any more megalomaniac mechanisms out there?

                                                     Peter Trei

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 24 April 1984, 18:03-PST
From: Craig W. Reynolds <cwr at WHITE>
Subject: frobs vs fobs

    Date: 13 Apr 84 14:23:00-PST (Fri)
    From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: Re: "Press Enter []" by John Varley

    In "the Hacker's Dictionary" ...  BTW, when I was in grade
    school I thought of a Frob as a little medallion that
    construction workers wore from their belt showing a picture of
    something like a backhoe or bulldozer.  -Shaun
    ...uiucdcs!uicsl!keller (from the birthplace of HAL)

Perhaps, but when *I* was a kid, the word for what you are
describing was "fob".  They were used a lot to hold watches (not
just decorative emblems), particularly by train crews and other
heavy equipment operators.  Watches on fobs tended to get less shock
damage than wrist watches.  'Course, that was back in the ol' days,
back when watches used to be mechanical widgets ...

Having a frob attached to your belt would be another thing entirely!
-c

------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 14:50:03-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: what ever happened to Comics-Lovers

Jacob Butcher asked, in SFL V9 #68, what happened to Comics-Lovers.
It was moderated by Henry Miller, who seems to have left the net.
At any rate, he left his account at SRI-NIC, where he coordinated
Comics-Lovers.  As of yesterday, I have deleted
Comics-Lovers@SRI-NIC from the list of lists (SRI-NIC file
<NETINFO>INTEREST-GROUPS.TXT, available by FTP using ANONYMOUS FTP
login and any password).

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #72
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Apr 84 1253-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #72
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 27 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
         Books - Heinlein & Leinster & Robinson (3 msgs) &
                 Varley & A Review of The Final Reflection (2 msgs) &
                 A Call for Novels,
         Films - Faithful SF Films (2 msgs),
         Television - Tom Baker as Sherlock Holmes & The Twilight Zone,
         Miscellaneous - More of that "Old Time Religion"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 84 10:36:21-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!barryg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein???

Apparently I am more familiar with Heinlein than you are.  I suggest
you read/reread:

        ASSIGNMENT IN ETERNITY: "Gulf" (telepathy) and "Lost Legacy"
(all the psychic powers you've thought of and possibly more)
        WALDO
        METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN: (towards the end: The Little People
section)
        "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" with reference
to the powers of the Sons of the Bird
        And finally STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND (again, towards the
end)

        --Lee Gold

Barry Gold
usenet:         {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet:        barry@BNL

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 18:30:09-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!nsc!foster @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Med Service series

The Med Service series was written by Will F. Jenkins whose pen name
was Murray Leinster.  He wrote mostly for ACE BOOKS whose address is
(or was some years ago):

                 1120  Avenue of the Americas
                     New York, N. Y. 10036

These stories were written more than twenty years ago and still have
very few anachronisms.  The Med Service series is good entertainment
and more.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 84 13:15:00-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf)

Nobody has mentioned Robinson's novel "Telempath". That, plus
"Stardance" (co-authored with his wife) and "Mindkiller" are what
Robinson has out in the way of novels.  There's also three
collections of short stories: "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon," "Time
Travelers Strictly Cash," and "Antinomy." All recommended, the first
two if you like puns and other low humor. The third contains the
short story (I think it's the title story) which grew up to be
"Mindkiller." Finally, he alternated in the Analog & Destinies
review columns for a long while. He is no longer doing this, much to
my dissapointment. Blast it, I enjoyed reading the man's *reviews*,
and wish he would start doing them again - if only every once and a
while.

Having read all three of his novels, I've noticed that he doesn't
seem to be able to kill people. In all three of them, someone you
thought was dead and gone reappears at the end of the novel -
usually to explain all. Does this annoy anyone else? I was very
off-gepissed *all three times* he did it to me. Especially since I'd
thoroughly enjoyed the books until then.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 12:45:36-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names

<Wow! Another neat place for my quotes! ?

    The third contains the short story (I think it's the title
    story) which grew up to be "Mindkiller."

The story that grew up into Mindkiller was called 'God is an Iron'
and was originally published in Omni.

    Finally, he alternated in the Analog & Destinies review columns
    for a long while. He is no longer doing this, much to my
    dissapointment.  Blast it, I enjoyed reading the man's
    *reviews*, and wish he would start doing them again - if only
    every once and a while.

Actually, he started doing the reviews for Galaxy magazine (for, as
he puts it, cheese sandwiches) before it went under. He did it
because he realized he needed the exposure in the industry. The
problem with book reviewing is that you put an enormous amount of
time into it reading and get very little money back. I miss his
reviews enormously, but I can't blame him and I'd rather have him
spending that time writing his own stuff!

>From under the bar at Callahan's:              Chuq Von Rospach
{amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui       (408) 733-2600 x242

Never give your heart to a stranger, unless you are sure that you
are dead.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 15:18:09-PST (Sun)
From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Best of All Possible Worlds

> From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach)
>
> I heard that the sequel to the book 'Best of All Possible Worlds'
> was canceled because the original just didn't sell as well as
> hoped. Oh, well.

A thundering shame if true. Would it help any to send every
net.sfnik down to buy it? Dear people it is worth it, if only for
Heinlein's favorite underap- preciated story, "Our Lady's Juggler"
by Anatole France.

    This story is a heartwarming picture of human values. (cornier
than the story deserves, but I dont want to do a spoiler here).
Pro-Heinlein folks could make a strong case for the Senile Master
Storyteller (~1/2 :->) by pointing to his admiration for "Our Ladys
Juggler". A better case even than Spider Robinson makes in "rah rah
R.A.H."

    foo! Im working on a beautiful Sunday. My eloquence isn't what I
might like.  I'll just miss that second volume of BoAPW, though.

"Well I'ma tella y'u, mister smartaguy aardawark ..."

        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 84 23:52:16-PST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sbcs!bn
From: l!mbeck @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Anyone seen Varley's "Demon" yet?

<just think of how much disk space we use to defeat the bug!>

     Somewhere recently (not sure if it was here) there was a note
about John Varley's book "Demon", one of the Titan series.

     Has anyone seen this book (either hardcover or paperback) ?

Mark Becker
...bnl!mbeck

------------------------------

Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 18:47:21-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: book review--The Final Reflection

The Final Reflection is the latest Timescape Star Trek novel, this
time by John M. Ford. This is the best Star Trek novel I have read,
and curiously, none of the TV actors are major characters, except
Spock, who is a child at the time of the story.

The book begins with Kirk reading a novel that's just come out, and
ends with him finishing the novel. In between, the
novel-within-a-novel is also called The Final Reflection, and is the
story of a Klingon, seen through his eyes. The novel is without the
sentimentality that degrades much of the Star Trek material that has
come out in the past few years.  The novel presents a good picture
of what Klingon society might be like, and manages to portray them
in a consistent way, not as the murdering hypocrites that they
typically come over as, but also not as clones of the Romulans,
whose societal pattern has already been portrayed both in actual TV
episodes and in novels.

Given the belief in the Star Trek universe, the action in the novel
is both believable and supportive of the "history" which has been
sketched out over the years. If the events of the novel are taken as
truth in the context of the Star Trek universe, then a lot of
formulative events in the history of the Federation are revealed in
this novel, including the first interspecies racial joke: "How many
Romulans does it take to fix a transporter?".

Of course, Ford realizes that his history is not "official"---that
is why it is couched, with an official disclaimer from Starfleet
Command, as a work of fiction.

TFR is so well written, compared with your average Star Trek novel,
that all of you with the least bit of interest in Star Trek should
run out and purchase it at once. I am afraid that this "review" does
not reveal much about the events in the novel, but just about
anything I say would be a spoiler.

Not a Trekkie,

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1984 1406-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: review of "The Final Reflection"

"The Final Reflection" by John M. Ford
Pocket Books, $2.95

     There have recently been a whole slew of novels set in the Star
Trek universe.  The inside cover of "The Final Reflection" lists
fifteen, some of them by fairly well known authors like Vonda
McIntyre and Greg Bear.  Counting the TV short story anthologies,
the cartoon series and all the randoms, the total must come to fifty
books by now.  Perry Rhodan, watch out!  This one caught my eye
because I loved John Ford's first book, "Web of Angels".  His
second, "Princes of the Air", got kind of incoherent, but this one
is tight and well-plotted. Working within the constraints of the ST
universe must have had disciplining effect on him.
      The book is actually not about Kirk, Spock and McCoy, those
well-beloved characters of our youth, although Spock appears in it
as a child.  It's about a Klingon captain, Krenn sur-Rustazh, who
winds up being the first Klingon ambassador to the Federation.  He
is in fact, the Klingon counterpart to Kirk, being bold, courageous,
and cunning, although since he is a Klingon he is also a ruthless
and cold-blooded killer.  There's even a Klingon counterpart to the
Star Trek TV series itself.  Every week the Battleship Vengenance
with Captain Koth at the helm captures an enemy ship or enslaves an
enemy planet.  Although Krenn is without an established Line, he
quickly rises to being the captain of a frontier naval vessel.  When
the Federation starts making peace overtures, he is the one chosen
to bring the Federation ambassador to the Klingon homeworld, since
he is expendable.  This brings him in contact with the devious and
incomprehensible Humans.  Worst of all is Dr. Emmanuel Tagore, the
ambassdor, who is a pacifist. He cannot understand a being who
dislikes war just because it is war, and not because he might lose.
       There are some nice touches in the descriptions of the
totally militarist Klingon culture.  They have a passion for
chess-like games, of which they have a number of forms, some with
live soldiers battling it out. In the afterlife they go to sail with
the Black Fleet, where they can fight and die laughing a thousand
times.  They are baffled by the Human's penchant for going into
large meetings completely unarmed. You don't actually come to
sympathize with them, but they do become more than mere monsters.  I
would have thought that the Star Trek universe would have been
exhausted long ago, but this book proves that an inventive author
can find an interesting angle on anything.

John Redford (vlsi @ dec-marlboro)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 84 13:33:50 PST (Thursday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Call For Novels: wide subject area

I'd like to request recommendations for novels dealing with either
or both of the following topics:

1) Extrapolated Near Earth Future: doesn't even need to be science
fiction.  I'm interested in novels with lots of politics and
intrigue, or studies of alternate realities.  The wider the scope,
the better.  [Books I have read that I consider to be in the class
specified by this topic: "The Man In The High Castle", "Stand On
Zanzibar", "Childhood's End", "1984"]

2) Large Scope Political/Intrigue Imperialism/Revolution: By large I
mean anything from planet-wide to galaxy-wide.  The more complicated
and intertwined the plot, the better.  [Books I have read that I
consider to be in the class specified by this topic: Foundation
Trilogy, Dune series, Illuminatus! Trilogy, Lensman (har har), etc.]

Even more helpful would be recommendations of authors who tend to
write novels of this sort (like Brunner).

Please, reply to: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA only, unless you have
additional comments to make of general interest.

Thanks in advance!

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 84 10:42:43-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!barryg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films

Fantasy films that were faithful to the source?

For TV viewers, I recommend Chuck Jones' "The Selfish Giant" (based
on the Wilde fairy tale) and "Ricky Ticky Tavi" (based on Kipling).

Most non-F&SF films are also not faithful to the source.  I have not
yet seen a faithful version of THREE MUSKETEERS or IVANHOE.

--Lee Gold

Barry Gold
usenet:         {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet:        barry@BNL

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1984  20:54 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: faithful SF films

How about Colossus: The Forbin Project?  That's one of the most
faithful to the book, that wasn't actually written to be made into a
movie, that I've seen.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 84 20:16 EST
From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: For Tom Baker Fans

This has nothing (hardly) whatsoever to do with SF and is clearly a
waste of the taxpayer's money it takes to get it to you, but what
the h....  Those of you who are on a cable TV system may have not
noticed that Tom Baker, yes, the Tom Baker of Dr.  Who, is starring
as Sherlock Holmes in a production of the Hound of the Baskervilles
on the ARTS/ENTERTAINMENT network.  First hour is airing right now,
to be repeated later tonight and again at other times.  My first
reaction at the first few minutes was that it was NOT Sherlock, but
Dr.  Who I was seeing, but then when one thinks about it, the two
characters are remarkably similar and it is excellent casting (even
if it isn't Basil).

Ted

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 25 Apr 1984 06:49:21-PST
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Do not adjust your set...)
To: sfnet@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Another TZ time travel episode

I seem to recall a Twilight Zone episode about a harried businessman
who rode the commuter train and was surprised to find one rainy
evening that it had stopped in a sunny station 100 years ago.  He
stayed on the train for two more rides, and then he'd had enough of
the 20th century, and he got off.

There was also one called "The Third Level" about a chap who had a
friend who had found a lower level of Grand Central Terminal - from
there, one could take the train to the past.  The hero didn't
believe it until his friend disappeared and then the hero found a
letter in his attic (?) that had been stored away for 80-odd years,
to him, from his friend, saying, "I found it!"  But the hero never
found the third level.

Cheers,

Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder

------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 84 11:57:38 est
Subject: More of that "Old Time Religion"

Sorry, Folks, I was feeling inspired.

We will sing of Iluvatur,
Who sent the Valar 'cross the water
To lead Morgoth to the slaughter
And that's just fine with me.

We will sing of Foul the Render,
Who's got Drool Rockworm on a bender
In his cave in Kiril Threndor--
They're both too much for me.

We will sing the Jug of Issek,
And of Fafhrd his chief mystic,
Though to thieving Mouser will stick,
And that's good enough for me.

Of Lord Shardik you must beware;
To please him you must swear;
'Cause enraged he's a real Bear,
He's bad enough for Mr. T!

Will Duquette, Claremont, CA
(I really do apologize, especially for that last one.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-Apr  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #73
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Apr 84 1355-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #73
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Apr 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:
           Books - Asimov & Heinlein (2 msgs) & MacAvoy &
                   May & Niven & Reynolds & Vinge & Analog Story,
           Films - Faithful SF Films (4 msgs) & High Speed Film &
                   Firestarter (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 84 18:07:28-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.Stat-L.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book recommendation (100 short short stories)

        Let me recommend to y'all out there "100 Great Short Short
        Science Fiction Stories", edited by Isaac Asimov et. al.

        Good stuff from beginning to end, great (obviously) for
        reading in small chunks, and contains the story referred to
        (ages ago) in this newsgroup wherein someone makes continual
        references to "pact with the devil" stories...also contains
        "Synchronicity", which I was looking for some time ago
        (probably of interest to fans of the Police) and one of the
        best "unconquerable-human- spirit" stories I've ever read --
        "Upstart".

        Oh, just go buy it.

Rsk the Wombat
UUCP: { allegra, decvax, ihnp4, harpo, teklabs, ucbvax } !pur-ee!rsk
      { cornell, eagle, hplabs, ittvax, lanl-a, ncrday } !purdue!rsk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 13:41:49 est
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: Heinlein & Psi; The Man in the High Castle

   There are at least two Heinlein shorts dealing substantially with
psi, although I've managed to forget both their titles. One is a
novella in which Mt Shasta turns out to be a repository of Atlantean
knowledge, now inhabited by people ranging from Ambrose Bierce to a
Chinese ex-servant; three formerly normal humans discover this after
(in effect) bootstrapping themselves into psi powers. The second is
a short in which a group of psychokinetics prevent A-bombs (hidden
around the country by Russian agents) from exploding after remote
triggering. (There's also a brief mention of the 'supermen' in
"Gulf" finding telepathy to be unreliable at best, and psi is used
for secret communications at the end of "If This Goes On..." and the
beginning of "Methuselah's Children".) Heinlein tended to be
practical about editors' desires, considering himself a hired
craftsman rather than an artist, so when Campbell (who bought most
of Heinlein's magazine-published work) wanted psi stories, he got
them.
   THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE is considered SF because of a general
rubric that alternate-world stories (aka uchronias) are SF even if
there is no travel between alternities (as there is at the end of
tMitHC). Other examples of this are BRING THE JUBILEE (Ward
Moore--travel borderline) and THE ALTERATION (Kingsley Amis). It's
not a bad inclusion---science fiction is definable as "What would
happen if we go this way?" while uchronias are what would (have
happened)/(be happening now) if we had gone that way.

   The recent talk about Heinlein has reminded me of a wonderful
trivia question. When Campbell did a poll on who was the most
popular writer published in ASTOUNDING, he got a surprise: Heinlein
came in SECOND!. Who was first?  Answers \to/ \me/ at the address
below, and I'll post the correct one in a couple of weeks.

        CHip
                (Chip Hitchcock)
                ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
                usenet: ...{!decvax,!linus,!sri-unix}!cca!csin!cjh

War is peace      Freedom is slavery         Ketchup is a vegetable

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 17:53:34-PST (Mon)
From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein???

In fact, MAGIC, INC (in the same volume with WALDO) is pure psychic
fantasy.  One of the dangers of Heinlein is that he is a *master*
storyteller: he makes even utter gibberish plausible, especially
while you are reading it.

        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 17:29:07 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin)
Subject: Tea with the Black Dragon

Warning - don't buy this book unless you are prepared to see
algorithms spelled 'algorythms'.  This only happens once though, so
i suppose it's a typo.  Hi Spd.  Steve.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 14:15:20-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "Adversary" by Julian May (female!)

<Grey torc the bugs>

I am not going to spoil this book by trying my inept hand at a
detailed review.  It is an excellent book and concludes the current
series without eliminating hope for further books in the same
universe.  The back pages mention a pre-quel trilogy about events
leading to the Milieu and the "current" situation.  "Jack the
Bodiless" is one title (and only those familiar with the current
trilogy will understand the significance).

I rate this a solid 8.5/10.  There are a few places where deus ex
machina seems to solve problems.  But it is an excellent read and I
recommend it even as a hard-cover.

One last comment.  How many people noticed the reference to
Industrial Light and Magic near the end?

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Group    University of Toronto
Usenet: {linus, ihnp4, allegra, decvax, floyd}!utcsrgv!perelgut
CSNET:  perelgut@Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 21:49:09-PST (Sun)
From: wildbill @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "Inconstant Moon" little-known?

Who are you trying to kid here? C'mon, it only won a Hugo, that's
all.  I think I have it in a couple of Niven collections, Hugo
Winners III, and two or three other places besides. This out of a
total library of only about 400 books. Not exactly obscure, what?

                                     Bill Laubenheimer
                                     UC-Berkeley Computer Science
       ...Killjoy WAS here!          ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 22:41:30-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!nsc!foster @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: How to get rich with a time machine

The story about a time traveler who went back to Venice in 1300 AD
to invest a modest sum (10 U.S. double eagles) and collected the
principal six and a half centuries later to pay for the enormous
expenses of his own time travel was called "COMPOUNDED INTEREST".
It was written by Mack Reynolds and was first published in Fanstasy
and Science Fiction in 1956.

At one time Mack Reynolds was my favorite author, primarily because
of a story he wrote in the 1960's called BEEHIVE.  First published
as a 3 part serial in Analog, it resulted in a number of other
stories using the same basic plot.  The plot went something like
this:

A vastly superior civilization is discovered by some humanoids who
learn to their peril that these advanced beings have but one law,
"thou shalt not steal".  Stealing results in the humanoids home
planet being converted instantaneously to something that won't
support life (of any kind).  A small number of humans find out about
this and (thankfully) don't take anything from the vastly superior
beings.  The league of planets (or something) is informed and decide
to promote among the members a maximum rate of technological
advancement to hopefully someday be able to counteract the terrible
menace of the vastly superior beings.

Naturally they don't tell the member planets anything about the
vastly superior beings or the plans for technological development.
This job is turned over to the department of dirty tricks (sort of
furturistic CIA).  That group goes around recruiting ordinary
citizens with special talents to help in the cause (their own agents
being too well known).  If this sounds like the current tv show
"Masquerade" you're close.  Personally, I think the idea came from
"The Man From U.N.C.L.E." which predated "Masquerade" by 22 years.

Anyway, the department of dirty tricks goes about its' business of
spread- ing the slogan "Progress Is Our Most Important Product"
across the galaxy and in the process Mack Reynolds generates some
great yarns of daring do (and sometimes their hilarious
repercussions).

Anyone else out there remember Mack Reynolds or the BEEHIVE
scenario?
















9

9

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 84 17:09:00-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: @i(True Names) reissue?

Quoting from the June '84 Analog Biolg:

        "His third, @i(True Names), has been recently issued by
        Bluejay Books. This short novel made the final ballots for
        both the Nebula and Hugo awards, with very favorable reviews
        in @i(Analog) by Spider Robinson and in @i(Microcomputing)
        by Frank Derfler. And a movie option has been taken on it!"

So, it looks like it may be available to those who didn't get it the
first time around. And a *movie!* I can hear the ads now:
"Somewhere, on the edge of the address space, a battle is about to
begin..."

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 18:45:13-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!un
From: m-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Analog Magazine versus Physics

Description of a story in a recent issue of Analog:

        Now there was a disgrace for a "science fact and fiction"
        magazine! The main story-line required the group of people
        inside an adrift, non-rotating, satellite to make it face
        the other way. Someone figures out that he can run around
        the inside of the satellite. They do this, crawling, then
        running, and then they stop, LEAVING THE SATELLITE WITH A
        NET ROTATIONAL VELOCITY.

Shortly before it folded, back in the late 70's, Galaxy ran an
otherwise cute story with the same mistake: people jogging around
the inside of a hollow asteroid were resented because they increased
the asteroid's spin and thus the apparent gravity.  The editor (why
be nice? it was James Baen) was very surprised when people wrote in
complaining about the bad physics.  There's nothing esoteric
involved here: this is simple, fundamental stuff that should be
taught in high school.

Who's editing Analog these days? This is disgraceful!

Jim Janney
{{convex,ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax,{purdue,lbl-csam,cmcl2}!lanl-a}
!unm-cvax!janney

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 10:38 PST
From: Harris Shiffman <Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Faithful to the Source

Colossus (The Forbin Project) was about as close to the original
book as any film I can recall.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 18:44:07 EDT
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #72

The plot of Colossus, the Forbin Project is fairly similar between
book and movie, but that's about as far as the similarity goes.  The
characters are all very different.  In the book, Forbin is sort of a
muddler while in the movie he real together.  His girlfriend is a
conniver in the book desparately trying to get Forbin into her
pants, while in the movie she's not.  There are lots more.  I'm a
big fan of the movie and I thought I liked the book, too, but I just
reread it a few months ago and it really stinks.  There isn't a
single character I can have any respect for.  This seems to be a
rare instance when a bad book is made into a great movie, instead of
vice versa.  How often does that happen?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 11:48:56-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films

   The first film that comes to mind when "sf films that are
faithful to their book versions" is mentioned is, of course, "2001:
A Space Odyssey", by Arthur C. Clarke/Stanley Kubrick.  In this
case, the novel and the movie were made simultaneously. The novel
went through severlal re-writes, in order to get a story that would
work as a film.  There's at least one major discrepancy between the
two, though.  In the book, the Discovery is sent to Iapetus, in the
Saturn system. In the movie, it is sent to Jupiter instead; Kubrick
decided that animating Jupiter was hard enough; animating Saturn
would be even harder, as it'd be like Jupiter, except with rings.
So, Jupiter it was!

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 1984  00:30 EST
From: "Adam G. Mellis" <DVW.AGM%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: faithful SF films

The book "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Clarke and Kubrick is relatively
true to the film and provides some much-needed explanation.
However, the reason is probably that the screenplay, by Kubrick and
Clarke (note the order) was written at the same time.

p.s. 2001 is an expansion of "The Sentinal", a short story by Clarke.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 84 9:31:47-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: high frame rates / strobing

Jerry Aguirre states:

        "When it becomes cheaper to computer synthesize images than
        build sets and costumes the problem will go away.  Or will
        they deliberately incorporate the strobing effect to
        simulate "real" film?

Some of you may be interested to know that this is already happening
(to a degree, anyway).  At a computer graphics conference in Eugene,
Oregon I saw a demonstration of something called "Emulsifilter" (or
something like that).  This is an electronic device that makes
videotape look like film-transferred-to-videotape!  They seem to do
it by dropping the contrast, fooling with the color balance a bit,
and maybe softening the focus a little.  In addition, for this
demonstration they added a little "tickatickaticka" movie projector
sound to the tape to enhance the effect...  It's amazing what the
subtle difference between film and videotape can do to the emotional
impact of a visual work.

What next?  Computer simulations of flip-books?

David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                  (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 9:07:28-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!whuxle!spuxll!abnjh!c
From: bspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Time Bandits Sequel and FireStarter

Firestarter opens nationwide on May 11.

Drew Barrymore, George C. Scott, Martin Sheen, and Louise Fletcher
star.  Richard Fleischer directed.

   -Eric Carter
ATT-IS Morristown, NJ

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 84 5:49:50-PST (Tue)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Time Bandits Sequel and FireStarter

        Correction: "Firestarter" was *not* directed by Richard
Fleischer!!!  I believe Fleischer is directing the "Conan" sequel,
which like "Firestarter" is a Dino DeLaurentiis production. Mark
Lester is the director of "Firestarter";his previous credits include
"Roller Boogie" and "Class of '84", but I'm still looking forward to
the movie!!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #74
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 84 1301-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #74
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:
            Books - Benford & Brin & Goldman (3 msgs) &
                    Robinson (2 msgs) & Varley & More Book Reviews &
                    Omni Story & Totonto Book Stores,
            Films - Dune

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 29 Apr 84 21:41:20-PDT
From: Barry Eynon <EYNON@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: AGAINST INFINITY

I was interested to read the recent review of Benford's AGAINST
INFINITY, and somewhat surprised that noone else has mentioned
something that jumped out at me even from the very first chapter -
the book is stylistically and structurally almost completely
isomorphic with William Faulkner's novella "The Bear". (included,
among other places in the collection GO DOWN MOSES) Since I haven't
read Faulkner since I OD'ed on him for a senior HS English project,
I really had a weird feeling when I started reading AI, and I
couldn't resist digging out my old Faulkner books and rereading "The
Bear". I really can't say more without spoiling both stories, but I
thought the (obviously intentional) reworking of the concepts by
Benford was fascinating.

-Barry Eynon

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 27 Apr 1984 16:55-PST
Subject: micro-thoughts on David Brin's latest -- Practice Effect
From: Kevin W. Rudd <kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim>

1. book was enjoyable (bought it at 9pm, finished (with numerous
   interruptions) at 1am.
2. wrapping up left a lot to be desired.
3. lack of real character development as in Startide Rising (similar
   problem in Sundiver)
4. <conclusion> -- not as good as Startide Rising but more enjoyable
   than Sundiver.
5. <recommendation> -- read 'em all.
  -- Kevin
     kevinw@su-dsn

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 9:20:00-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!kaufman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names

     The extract is from "The Princess Bride" by William Goldman,
not Golding.  Golding wrote "Lord of the Flies" while Goldman's work
includes "Marathon Man" and the screenplay of "Butch Cassidy and the
Sundance Kid".
     Most simply, "The Princess Bride" is wonderful.  I was first
exposed to it through the Robinson collection and was captivated by
the excerpt (a duel scene which has thrilled fencing masters).  I
promptly ran to the store and got a copy of the entire book.  It may
be a bit hard to find; this, along with the rest of Goldman's books,
is usually put in the fiction section rather than in sf/fantasy.
     By the way, has anyone heard about Goldman's progress with the
next S.  Morganstern book?  I heard it was supposed to come out this
year.
                                     "Bevare the Green Dragon"
                                     Ken Kaufman (uiucdcs!kaufman)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 84 9:23:06-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: William Goldman

William Goldman has gotten a new book to press recently, called "The
Color of Light" -- it does not seem to be a F/SF book.

Last year, S. Morgenstern released a hardback called, "The Silent
Gondolier".  I highly recommend reading the book.  It is a short
book, but very enjoyable.

Nowhere is it mentioned that William Goldman == S. Morgenstern.  But
we all have our own feelings on the subject.

        Audrey Ishizaki
        HPLabs
        Palo Alto, CA
        ..!ucbvax!hplabs!ishizaki

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 84 13:57:38-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!palmer @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Goldman, S. Morgenstern, Princess Bride, The Silent
Subject: Gondoliers

    William Goldman's latest S. Morgenstern work is "The Silent
Gondoliers", which has been out for several months in Hardback. (A
rather thin book) I haven't read it yet, but it's about a time when
all gondoliers sang, and were better than Caruso was in his time.
It does not have Goldman's name on the cover, so you may be filed
under Morgenstern at your local book store.

    If you have not been able to find "The Princess Bride", look in
used book stores, in the paperback section.  A local used book store
has several copies in several different covers.  I have never seen a
new copy for sale.
                        David Palmer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 1984  22:12 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm@UCB-VAX.ARPA
Subject: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf)

Actually, the short story that grew up to be Mindkiller was "God Is
An Iron", in "Time Travelers Strictly Cash".
                                        James
                                        (JMTURN@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 11:11:01-PST (Mon)
From: ihnp4!drutx!alanr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names

I have several books by Spider.  Among them are Stardance,
Mindkiller, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (highly recommended --
unless you can't stand puns), and one or two others (that I can't
remember the titles of).

        -- Alan Robertson
           ihnp4!drutx!alanr
           AT&T Information Systems

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 8:09:37-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Varley's Demon

"Demon" was listed in the latest edition of 'Forthcoming Books in
Print' as being available in June.
                                        Rick Coates
                                        tektronix!iddic!rickc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 16:27:55 PST
From: Scott Turner <srt@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Paperback Book Reviews



  MAN IN THE TREE, Damon Knight
  QUEST FOR THE FARADAWN, Richard Ford
  DILVISH THE DAMNED, Roger Zelazny
  EASY TRAVEL TO OTHER PLANETS, Ted Mooney

MAN IN THE TREE, Damon Knight, Berkley Fantasy, 0-425-06006-3, $2.75

This is a fascinating novel about a freak called Gene Anderson.  He
is an eight and a half foot giant with the ability to look into
closely parallel worlds and bring things back (and vice versa).
More importantly, he becomes a prophet, and his life parallels that
of Jesus and others.

Overall, this is a rather curious novel.  There is plenty of action
within, but the book doesn't strike one as action packed because all
the action is described with an eye toward how it affects the
developing Gene Anderson.  In some sense the book is a 250 page
study in character development.  What makes it worthwhile is the
fact that the character under development is a saviour.

One of science fiction's highly touted values is its ability to
translate the reader to a new and different place.  This book is a
superlative example of that.  Knight gives us a peek into the head
of a prophet.  I'd give it five stars if I did things like that.

QUEST FOR THE FARADAWN, Richard Ford, DELL 17182, $3.95

QUEST is the story of a boy named Nab who is searching for a magic
to save the world.  Nab was raised in the wild by a badger family;
he speaks the language of the wild and is friends with the animals.

To judge by the reviews quoted on the covers and inside pages, this
book has been well received.  Reviewers seem to love books about
animal communities.

Personally, I didn't find this book all that enjoyable.  Ford's
fantasy vision is intriguing enough.  But the plotting and the
writing slow the book down to the point where reading it becomes
monotonous.  In spots the reader can skip 10 to 15 pages without
missing anything that is essential to the story.  I must admit that
I haven't quite managed to finish this yet.  I'm about 2/3 of the
way through (the Quest has just started, to give you some idea of
the pacing).

Better stories of this sort have been written.  THE BOOK OF THE DUN
COW and WATERSHIP DOWN come to mind.  So save your money.

DILVISH THE DAMNED, Roger Zelazny, Del Rey Fantasy 30625, $3.50

This is a re-issue of a number of short stories written from 1964 to
1981.  I won't list them all here, but most of them have appeared
elsewhere.  (Curiously, Flying Buffalo owns the rights to one of
them.)  They all concern the adventures of Dilvish, a
warrior/sorceror who has returned from Hell in the company of a
demon steed named Black.  He's out to kill the sorceror who sent him
to Hell, one Jelerak.

I've long been a fan of Zelazny, and that is why I picked up this
book.  Lately his work has been sporadic and poor.  Can he return to
the form he had in LORDS OF LIGHT and the Amber Series?  I'm not
sure, but he doesn't do it here.

These tales are all interesting enough.  After all, Zelazny is a
craftsman, and even his bad stuff is written well.  But there are no
real surprises here, and nothing that makes you weep for a sequel.
So buy it with this in mind: if you like Zelazny, you'll be
semi-satisfied.  If you aren't particularly a Zelazny fan, then
you'll get a dose of mediocre (but well written) fantasy.

EASY TRAVEL TO OTHER PLANETS, Ted Mooney, Ballantine Fiction 30547,
$2.95

This book is copyright 1981, so I apologize if it has been discussed
here before.  I got my copy secondhand.

This is the story of a marine researcher and her interaction with
her laboratory animals - dolphins.  It is set in the near future, a
future where an increasing segment of the population suffers from
``information sickness'' a disease of information overload that
drives people crazy and makes them bleed from the ears.

The writing style is somewhat disconnected and jumpy, but acceptable
after the first 20 pages.  Overall the story is quite interesting.
It doesn't really go anywhere; there is no feeling of enlightenment
after finishing the book.  I'm not sure if that is a minus or not.
It really isn't that kind of a story.  It's a story of interpersonal
relationships, and how people cope with a changing world.

An interesting book.  Which is as far out on a limb as I will go.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 84 16:30:36-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: New SF movie: The Last Starfighter (Computer
Subject: Animation/Efx)

Anybody recall "Last Kid Inside The Mountain" from OMNI a while
back.  The world's best video gamer 10 year old is taken by the
military to NORAD to play the ultimate game.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 10:01:31-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Toronto book stores

Although this might sound strange "The Worlds Largest Bookstore" in
Toronto is one of the WORST bookstores to try to find anything
except gifts in.

They do have a large stock, but it consists mostly of manymanymany
copies of whatever is popular at the time.

For science fiction and fantasy try Bakka Books (Queens street
maybe), they are SURE to have all of Robinsons stuff since they have
a pretty comprehensive used section as well as all the new books.

The word Bakka comes from Dune and means something like "one who
weeps for the world". I'm sure someone out there knows the exact
quote.

Alice Bentley
....seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 84 5:55:46-PST (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dune Notes

+ [Excerpts from the Chicago Tribune "The Arts" Sunday April 22,1984
 The article discusses the production of "Dune" and director David
 Lynch.]

        Dune - Sci-Fi Extravaganza
        by Jeff Rovin

"Dune" has taken a difficult path toward its current production.
Arthur P. Jacobs, producer of "Planet of the Apes" [1968], made the
first attempt to film the novel in 1972.  While the project was in
the early stages of development, Jacobs died, and the property moved
on to Alexandro Jodorowsky, writer and director of the classic
western "El Topo" [1971.  Jodorowsky chose surrealist artist
Salvador Dali to design the sets, but the men couldn't get along,
and the project eventually collapsed.

De Laurentis acquired the film rights in 1980 and began developing
it with ridley Scott, director of "Alien" and "Blade Runner."  But
Scott wanted to emphasize the incestuous relationship between Paul
Atreides and his mother, so De Laurentis went hunting for another
director.

Because of an unfortunate set of circumstances, Lynch happened to be
free.  The director reportedly had turned down an offer from George
Lucas to direct "Return of the Jedi" and had then settled in at
Francis Coppola's Zoetrope Studios to begin work on "Ronnie Rocket,"
the story of "a 3-foot tall boy who has physical problems and
60-cycle alternating-current electricity."  But Zoetrope was close
to bankruptcy in early 1981 - dragged down by Coppola's expensive
production of "One from the Heart" - and "Ronnie Rocket" misfired.
So Lynch was free to accept "Dune."

After he signed on as "Dune's" writer-director, Lynch faced two big
problems.  First, he had to decided how to meet the expectations of
the 30 million people around the world who have read the novel.

That resolved, there was the very real problem of condensing the
book into a script that would run only two hours on the screen.

According to at least one source - the novel's author, Frank Herbert
- the director-screenwriter succeeded.  "David wrote a beautiful
script," Herbert says enthusiastically.  "What you'll see on the
screen is 'Dune.'"

Scenes and settings that can't be built or found in Mexico are being
created by an impressive team of special-effects technicians,
including Carlo Rambaldi, the man who designed the creatures for
"Alien" and "E.T."; Albert Whitlock, who destroyed Los Angeles in
"Earthquake" and blew up the ill-fated dirigible in "The
Hindenburg"; John Dykstra, who made the ships fly in "Star Wars" and
"Firefox"'; and Kit West, who designed action effects for "Raiders
of the Lost Ark" and "Return of the Jedi."

Ironically, the biggest adjustment Lynch has had to make is
unrelated to the vast sets of miniature models: "Dune" is the first
major film he has shot in color.

"I'm not really wild about color," he confesses.  "And I think
something like 'Dune' shot in black and white would have a nice
foreign feeling to it.  However, you have to be practical.  'Dune'
is a commercial venture, something I'm constantly reminded of by the
numbers of merchandising people passing through, preparing to
manufacture sandworm dolls and what-have-you.  That doesn't bother
me, because it's their world, not mine.  but it does reinforce the
fact that this is a moneymaking enterprise."

Lynch admits that shooting in color has advantages, particularly
because it allows him to create distinctive looks for the four
planets where "Dune's" action takes place.  "It would have been
difficult differentiating them in black and white," he concedes.
"And Freddie Francis, the director of photography, is shooting
'Dune' in a way that not only makes the colors richer than anything
we've seen in years, he's also making the shadows soft and subtle to
create a really unusual beauty."

But perhaps the best-known member of the cast is Gordon Sumner,
better known as Sting, lead singer and bass player of the rock group
Police.

Lynch reports that working with the rock superstar has been one of
his greatest pleasures in the set of "Dune."

"Sting is fantastic," he reports. "He is a great presence: Whatever
he does, he just leaps out, even if he's just standing there.  He's
a natural actor, and he brought a lot to the human side of the film.
In fact, all of the actors have been great in their way, with their
enthusiasm and collective experience."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #75
*** EOOH ***
AFTER: 3-MAY-84 23:00
Date:  3 May 84 1451-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #75
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:
           Books - Bulmer & Goldman & Hawke & Heinlein &
                   Lieber (2 msgs) & Spinning Your Satellite,
           Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & 2001 & High Speed Film (2 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Time Travel & CONTACT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 84 16:33:00-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Wanted, one wizard!?!

I am trying to buy a copy of Kenneth Bulmer's _The Wizards of
Senchuria_.  First publication was an Ace Double, probably about
1970. No, I don't know what was on the flip side. This is (I think)
the middle book of his Keys to the Dimensions series. Reasonable
prices go at least as far as 10 times the cover price - maybe more.
If you have a copy you'd like to part with, or a pointer to a good
used book store that will do mail order business, I would greatly
appreciate it if you would get in touch with me (many addresses
below).

        Thanx now, and afterwards,
        <mike

Mike Meyer
decvax!ucbvax!unisoft!mtxinu!ea!mwm             UUCP
allegra!convex!ctvax!uokvax!ea!mwm              more UUCP
unisoft!mtxinu!ea!mwm@berkeley.ARPA             ARPA
1-405-360-2508                                  BellNet nights
1-405-321-5778                                  BellNet days
P.O. Box 1749/Norman, OK 73070                  USnailNet

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 84 7:08:41-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcsla!clark @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Goldman, S. Morgenstern, Princess Bride, The Silent
Subject: Gondoliers

I just saw a new copy of "The Princess Bride" in our university
bookstore.  I didn't read closely, but it appeared to be a new
printing (in paperback).  By the way, an old girlfriend turned me on
to the book (ah yes, it's the only thing I thank her for), and I
have happily recommended it to others since.
-- Clark

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 84 14:56:00-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: best author of '84  uokvax!erlsmith

I have recently come across what i consider to be the best author of
1984, Simon Hawke.  He's really new at the book game, and i just
read his first book "The Ivanhoe Gambit", and absolutely loved it...
It was by far the best book that I have read this year (and I've
read a bunch, and I love sci-fi).

The guy has done his research and the books are great, did i say
books (plural) yes - he's written a sequal "timescape conspiritors"
and its just as good as the first, if not better.  I can't wait for
#3....

 eric l. smith
 ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith

p.s. I want to hear something about Asprin's "Another fine Myth"
     series... all four of them..

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 84 9:57:20-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!sjh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein???

It seems to me that in Time Enough for Love, the 'kids' which were
the offspring side effects of the genetic program which produced the
long- livers had telepathic powers which came in handy during times
of crises.  They could only telepathically communicate with other
'kids' though.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 84 11:51:00-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!stolaf!jensenj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Fritz Lieber -- Actor?

Just last light I saw a movie -- Monsieur Verdoux (1947) starring
Charlie Chaplin.  It was a sort of modern retelling of the legend of
Bluebeard.  What caught my attention was, in the opening credits,
the name of Fritz Lieber crawled up the screen (it would have been a
bit part.)

The question is (as all can see by now), was this THE Fritz Lieber
or not?  Did the author of the Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser series
begin as a Hollywood character actor?  Surely there must have been
only one Fritz Lieber, or was there another?

Does anybody know?
                                Thanks for the effort,
                                 Joel "I read the credits" Jensen
                                        ihnp4!stolaf!jensenj

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 8:40:58-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!barryg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Lieber -- Actor?

Fritz Lieber (the SF author) is Fritz Lieber, Jr.  His father was
the actor.  Fritz claimed that he grew up hearing so much
Shakespeare that it was nearly second nature to be able to write in
iambic pentameter if he chose (and indeed parts of one of his novels
(The Wanderer?) are written that way).

--Lee Gold
Barry Gold
usenet:         {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet:        barry@BNL

------------------------------

Date: Wed 2 May 84 09:10:40-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Spinning your satellite

Yes, the stories mentioned, that had artificial satellites given
intrinsic spin by the people inside them, were wrong, wrong.  But,
yes, you can give your satellite a spin, and no, you don't do it by
running around the inside like a demented squirrel.

Consider a nearly spherical satellite, and put a band around the
middle.  Put another band around that, and a ball race between the
two, so the one can rotate around the other.  Add a small motor.
Turn it on.

Your satellite gradually begins to spin.  But the outer ring begins
to spin the other way - big deal.  Well, take two rather long rods,
attach them at opposite sides of the outer ring, pointing outwards.
Put a rather large mass at the far end of each rod.  Orient the
whole thing so that one rod points directly towards your primary
(that huge globe up there over your head), and the other directly
away from it.  This is your Mass Anchor.

The configuration described is a potential minimum.  If you try to
move the outer ring, the tidal forces of the primary's gravity field
will oppose you.  So you now have something to push against.  Turn
on that motor again.  The outer ring will TILT, but then come to
rest.  There is a net force on the inner ring; it's not a large
force, but you can exert it continuously, and so build up spin.  If
you build up a LOT of spin, you'll find your orbit decaying (that's
where the angular momentum is coming from), but for reasonable sized
satellites you can forget about it.

Finally, dismantle the mass anchor and bring the bits inside the
satellite.  Lock the rings.  Presto - you are spinning.

The spin will of course decay, due to the same tidal forces.  But,
for a nearly symmetrical configuration, the decay is slower.

Robert Firth

(Next week - how to tack in a free balloon)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 84 10:13:00-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spock didnt have to die...

Well i thought of that too but shot it down with this explanation.
Since sensors couldn't lock onto the Reliant (a massive object) they
probably couldn't lock onto anything smaller such as a person or
bomb if that person or bomb were in the nebula outside the
Enterprise.  And you can't use the transporter without locking onto
the object.  Therefore that idea doesn't work.  Now maybe you
could've beamed aboard the reliant and used its transporter but was
it working?  Well they can't think of everything...  That would make
the movie too easy.
                                        mike stanley
                                        ...ctvax!uokvax!jmike

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 20:34:13 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Tidbits about Star Trek III
From: Lopes.ES@XEROX.ARPA

This excerpt comes from an interview with Leonard Nimoy in the May
1984 issue of Los Angeles magazine...

'...As with the first two Star Trek movies, the plot of "In Search of
Spock", due next month, has remained a carefully guarded secret.
Nimoy, though, is willing to impart a few clues.  "We're talking
science-fiction here," he says.  "The question is not whether we
will find Mr. Spock, but what form he will be in when we do.  Is he
dead or alive?  Is he vegetable or animal?  Has he mutated into
something else?  After all, I couldn't make a picture called 'In
Search of Spock' and have it end with Captain Kirk turning to the
audience and saying, 'Sorry, folks, we just couldn't find him.'"'

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 1 May 84 10:52:27 EDT
Subject: why not iapetus?

there was a very specific reason why bowman & poole & hal & co. went
to jupiter and not iapetus in 2001.  doug trumbull did up a saturn
for kubrick and kubrick didn't like it--wasn't colorful enough for
him.  so trumbull made up a jupiter, turned up the hue and intensity
a little, and kubrick decided jupiter was better.  i always resented
the guy for that.  the switch greatly damaged the credibility of the
movie as sf, and all for the sake of bands on a plaster planet.
urrkh.

this from a book by jerome agel (i think; it's been years) called
the making of 2001 or something like that.

you'll note that clarke covered his tracks for 2010.  boo on
kubrick!

--jeff duntemann         duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Wed 2 May 84 00:44:59-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
Subject: High Speed film.

        I've been reading with interest the messages over the past
few months about ShowScan, the 60 frame per second film technology
which is supposed to produce a far more 'emotionally intense'
experience than our standard 40 fps. Some people are saying that it
is all hype, that technology alone can do nothing to improve the
experience, while most of those who have seen it claim that its the
best thing since sliced bread.
        I believe that increasing the frame rate really may produce
a qualitative difference in the viewers experience, and I'd like to
explain why.
        The human eye's photo receptors do not produce an analog
output; each rod or cone cell is connected to nerves which will
carry pulses of a more or less invariant size at large range of
frequencies.  (The impulses are sort of like solitons.)  The
frequency of impulses is roughly proportional to the log of the
brightness, with an absolute upper rate of about 500 pulses per
second for the nerve.
        Because of this, there is an absolute upper limit to the
time resolution of the human eye, with the brightness signal being
continuously averaged over a time period which varies inversely with
the brightness. Any periodicy in the signal at a rate much higher
than this averaging time will be invisible.
        You or I can certainly detect flicker in a standard 24 fps
movie, or for that matter in a 40 fps TV picture (If you couldn't, a
TV screen of 'snow' would look smooth gray). Can the eye detect
flicker in film at 60 fps? I don't know. I suspect that you could
under good conditions, but movies aren't test cards; they are rarely
very bright, and the 'black time' between frames is considerably
less than the time a frame is on the screen. Also, the 500
pulse/second figure I gave is the upper limit for NERVE cells. The
sampling rate for photoreceptors may be lower, and is almost
certainly so at theatre light intensities.
        I don't usually pay attention to the frequently visible
strobing in movies or on television.  It is something that I ignore
in a manner very similar to the 'willing suspension of disbelief' I
use when reading SF. It is there though, and I am sure that it
detracts from the realism of the experience at some subconscious
level. At 60 fps it may actually be eliminated, or at least become
far less noticeable even subliminaly. I will certainly go out of my
way to see ShowScan when it reaches NY, and I have hopes that it
will live up to every bit of hype. I hope that I DON'T have to buy
fast-food pizza to see it.

                                see you on the radio,

                                Peter Trei
                                oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 1984  23:30 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: hplabs!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl@UCB-VAX.ARPA
Subject: high frame rates / strobing

The Emulsifilter process is done by Acme Animation (I kid you not.
Does Wile E. Coyote buy from them?) I saw that demo as part of a
SIGGRAPH demo reel (#7, and worth it for the Cranston-Csuri and III
[Looker] sections.)

Acme does traditional style animation with computers. They seem to
do mostly Carrier Air Conditioning ads if you only watch the tape.
Emulsifilter has been universally judged much inferior to normal
film or video by everyone who has seen my copy of the tape. It looks
something like you had put gelatin on the lens and turned up the
blue too high. One of my friends claims that the problem with video
is that it looks too clear, so people who have been conditioned to
film are distracted, but I feel the Acme process would probably be
worse.
                                        James
                                        (JMTURN@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 84 21:11:40-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!jim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: FTL and Time Travel Challenge

You cannot cause a paradox.  A true paradox by its very nature
indicates the use of a semantically meaningless or ambiguous term.


Does the set of all sets which do not contain themselves contain
itself?
        This very question indicates that "the set" does not exist.

If God is omnipotent, can she create a stone so heavy she cannot
lift it?
        This question indicates a semantic weakness in the notion of
        omnipotence (not to mention the notion of God).

If I go back in time and kill my grandfather, will I cease to exist?
        If the future I came from is different from the future
        resulting from an act I commit in the historical past, then
        *they are different* and there is no reason to think that
        one affects the other.  A multiple universe model provides a
        better view of such situations; David Gerrold explores this
        to the point of nausea in "The Man Who Folded Himself".
        Heinlein's stories "By His Bootstraps" and "All You
        Zombies", and various cheap copies of those, are
        entertaining precisely because there is no "paradox"; he
        sets up a feedback situation such that all the changes
        result in a future identical to that which the characters
        have already experienced.  Note that, although the character
        in "By His Bootstraps" lives through discontinuous
        historical periods and encounters himself at various
        developmental stages, from his point of view there is only
        one of him, with a linear developmental history; he is born,
        he grows old, he dies.  Nothing circular involved.  Ditto
        for the "little black book".  As for where the knowledge of
        the translations written in the little black book came from,
        that is an amusing existential question.

-- Jim Balter (decvax!yale-co!ima!jim)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 84 16:19:16-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!tierney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: CONTACT - (nf)

                        CONTACT

          A SYMPOSIUM OF ANTHROPOLOGY AND SCIENCE FICTION


Science fiction contacts real science at CONTACT, a three day
Conference in Santa Cruz, CA May 4-6.

You're invited to join, in the intimate setting of the Pasatiempo
Inn, Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, C.J.  Cherryh, Paul Bohannan,
Joel Hagen, David Brin and other special guests to examine the
possibilities offered by the connection between anthropology and
science fiction.  CONTACT is not a typical science fiction
convention.

Registration is $40, and we will limit the number of registrants to
350, so pre-registration is urged.  For more information, call (408)
425-6301, 476-8312, or write:

                          CONTACT

                  c/o Anthropology Dept.
                     Cabrillo College
                      Aptos CA 95003

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #76
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 May 84 1209-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:
               Books - Aspirin & Heinlein & MacAvoy,
               Films - 70MM Film Bonanza (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 May 1984  17:56 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Aspirin's "Another Fine Myth"

        In answer to your question, this series is extremely funny,
if you appreciate a combination tongue-in-cheek/slapstick style
humour.  The story is about a demon/wizard named Aahz (no, no
relation) and his apprentice Skeeve, from the dimension Klah.  Aahz,
I should explain, is from Perv, which makes him a Pervert, except to
his face.  The series starts with Aahz being stranded in Klah, after
losing his powers (temporarily, they'll be back in a hundred years
or so), and follows its not so logical course from there.  The title
by the way, is from the following quote:

"That's another fine myth you've gotten me into!"

                        --Lor L. and Har D.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 8:32:29-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: psychics in Heinlein

Wait a minute!  What are 'psychic powers' except abilities to
perform powerful or otherwise useful tasks without using technology?
W. F. Jones' ability to tap magical powers in Waldo certainly seems
'psychic' to me.  Perhaps the confusion stems from the 'psychic
researchers' attempts to be credible and classify their phenomonae.
Since none of their classified effects have been clearly
reproducible, I feel free to include any strange, non-technological
powers that an individual has as 'psychic'.

I Will Fear No Evil: The Joan-Johann connection might have been
                     physical, but what about the connection with
                     Jake?

Stranger in a Strange Land: What precludes a 'psychic' power from
                            being learned?  Seems to me the whole
                            psychic field is based on the idea that
                            current science is incomplete about its
                            knowledge of the nature of reality.

Methuselah's Children: Electromagnetic radiation is not an
                       explanation for the group mind.  Any such
                       radiation would be immediately detected by
                       the ship's instruments. (An aside: for a
                       description of radio based telepathy see Olaf
                       Stapledon's First and Last Men.)

My personal opinion is that Heinlein makes the statement in The
Number of the Beast and I Will Fear No Evil that the noted effects
are real, not imaginary.
                                            Rick Coates
                                            tektronix!iddic!rickc

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 2:08:49-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: It's Gene and Roger time!

It's always much more interesting to see two reviewers disagree than
to see just one reviewer's platitudes.  I think that was the big
plus in format of the original SNEAK PREVIEWS (a PBS movie review TV
show).  This is just the sort of thing I was hoping to stir up.  Mr.
Cain, however, seems to have taken my put-down of the novel TEA WITH
THE BLACK DRAGON somewhat more seriously than I would have -- he
actually gave the review to Ms. MacAvoy, and forwarded her irate
response to me...

Ms. MacAvoy has rightly pointed out that the superficial
biographical information in my review was derived from an interview
in LOCUS #278 (March 1984) and should have been so credited; it was
not my intention to be discourteous to LOCUS, as Ms. MacAvoy seemed
to imply.  I like LOCUS and recommend it to everybody who reads
SF-LOVERS -- you'll find more useful information there (including
better reviews :-) than you'll find in this forum.  Ms. MacAvoy also
says that I had no business relating her first name, which she
prefers to keep out of the public eye (despite the fact that the
LOCUS article starts with '<censored> A.  MacAvoy's first published
novel, TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, ...' -- perhaps this was an
editorial oversight).  Oh well.  As long as I'm handing out credit,
I should note that the background information in the review of Gene
Wolfe's THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO came from the [very good!]
introduction to that book.

On to Mr. Cain's letter...  I shall quote in full lest I be accused
of quoting out of context:

        Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 10:15:24-PST
        From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
        Subject: TEA rebuttal

        In regards to Donn Seeley's review of R. A. MacAvoy's TEA
        WITH THE BLACK DRAGON: I think the review missed the mark.

        In fact, reviews like this which do little more than
        summarize the plot of a book have never impressed me as
        being fair to the author.  The plots of many of my favorite
        books sound pretty trite when put through such a narrow
        filter.

It certainly is true that a summary of the plot of TEA makes it
sound weak.  It is also true that some good books are also hard to
summarize in this way.  This does not, of course, imply that TEA is
one such book.  At any rate I think a review without a reasonable
plot summary is unfair to the reader.

        To me, the impact of a book comes from a less tangible
        source; from the writer's commitment to the story.  This
        expresses itself in the writer's ability to conjure
        true-to-life characters, to engage them in dialogue in which
        I feel a part, and then to confront them with problems to
        draw them out of themselves.

        If the writer fails in these, then I am tempermentally
        incapable of reading the story.  For that reason, two out of
        every three books I start end up in the trash by page seven.
        However, any story succeeding in these things finds a home
        on my bookshelves.

Hm.  I seem to hang on to the end of every book, regardless of how
bad the prospects are.  Sometimes I regret the experience.
Sometimes (as with TEA) I merely feel let down.  I personally think
that part of the favorable reaction from hackers is due to the
(quite tangible) fact that the book deals with computers.  Hey, I'm
a hacker too -- one of the reasons I got the book was to see what
fun it had with computers.  I was disappointed.  By the way, I like
strong characters too (see below).

        TEA is the kind of book I read with pleasure.  The
        characters begin to come to life in the first sentence and
        are allowed to grow and to change throughout the book.  The
        dialogues are fun to read, and the plot, though simple, is
        calculated to explore each of the character's strengths and
        weaknesses.  It is the kind of book which goes onto a
        smallish shelf I have for books to be re-read every couple
        years.

Here is where we diverge.  I came to TEA with great anticipation
after having read several reviews that described it as 'wonderful',
'a delight', and so on.  I was prepared to be resigned to a
superficial treatment of computers and the world of hacking,
although I hoped for better; I wasn't so happy to find the flat
dialogue, the wandering point of view, the insipidness of the
characters, the hokiness of the plot.  I don't want to stomp all
over the book -- the narrative problems are not bad compared to some
authors' first novels.  But given the reviews I expected to find
much more than I found.  I compare this reaction to my feelings
after having read THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson, another
first novel in the set of books which I reviewed: I really had a
moving experience with SHORE, the characters behaved like real
people, did things I did not expect, and the narrative was
pleasantly mature and polished, with lovely imagery and realistic
plotting.  TEA is inferior (my humble opinion) yet has had much more
praise lavished upon it.

        That Seeley's review summarizes the main woman character
        (Martha) as "dotty" or the main man (Mayland) as "reclusive"
        tells me the two of us read distinctly different books
        inside the same cover.  No mention is made of the fact that
        this love story involves two people over the age of 50 (one
        possibly much older), or that the most intriguing mystery is
        Mayland Long's past.  Mention of the distinctly Zen/Tao
        flavor of the book is also omitted.

The age of the leading characters didn't strike me as particularly
relevant.  The Zen or Tao 'flavor' of the book was just that, a
flavor, and perhaps my main gripe against the book is that it is
very unrevealing about the culture of dragons or even about Taoism.
It is true that the resolution of the 'plot' involves the quest for
the Dragon to see the Way, but after pages and pages of machinations
with computers and ruthless criminals it is hardly the central plot
event it should have been.  I think the story would have been much
more interesting (to me at any rate) if computers had been left out
entirely and the book devoted to the events of Long's quest.

        In addition, Seeley refers to the cover blurbs as
        "overkill."  Do I rightly hear him saying the book did not
        deserve the favorable reviews it received from others (which
        is tactless at best)?  Am I then to assume that nominations
        received by TEA for the Nebula, the Hugo, the John Campbell,
        the Phillip K.  Dick, and the Compton Crook awards are mere
        gaudy trappings?

Tsk, another person calls me tactless.  I imagine that personality
defect is all too obvious now that I have undertaken to respond to
this message at such unbearable length...

I certainly think other reviewers are entitled to their opinions.
The remark about the 'overkill' on the cover was simply to express
my feelings about the fact that the book jacket scorns a plot
summary in favor of simply listing quotes from reviewers (very
enthusiastic quotes, I'll admit that right away).  Much better books
in 1983 (my opinion again) received lesser favors from the
publisher.

I must say I am at a loss to explain why TEA is a nominee for the
Hugo when books like Wolfe's THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, Benford's
AGAINST INFINITY and Spinrad's THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE were passed
over.  (Fortunately all three are on the Nebula ballot.  Curiously,
only TEA and Brin's STARTIDE RISING managed to make both ballots.
You may be interested to know that TEA came in second for the Philip
K.  Dick award, after Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES.  All this from
LOCUS issues #279 and #280.)  TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON is
emphatically NOT science fiction -- I'm confused about why it is up
for science fiction awards.  Of course I have been confused about
this before (I like the remark attributed to Alfred Bester which I
read in Richard Lupoff's WHAT IF? series -- 'The fans -- the
wonderful, demented, fans...').  LYONESSE by Jack Vance, equally
non-science-fictional, is up for a Nebula.  Oh well.

        Sorry, but for all these reasons I feel the review was
        unfair to a very good book.

        Ron Cain CAIN@SRI-AI

I'm afraid it just wasn't my cup of (ouch!) tea.

Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept.
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA

PS Hey, you didn't think I was finished without repeating how to get
a subscription to 'LOCUS, the Newspaper of the Science Fiction
Field'?  For a 1-year subscription, send $24 to LOCUS Publications,
PO Box 13305, Oakland CA 94661.  Enjoy.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 15:15:26-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 70MM Film Bonanza

                        70MM Exhibition Craze

The number of theaters with 70MM Six Track Dolby Stereo presentation
capability is rapidly expanding, with Dolby Labs estimating that
some 600 screens will be in operation in the U.S. by the end of
1984.  At this point in time, some 470 U.S. theaters have Dolby's
CP200 six track stereo sound processor for 70MM and 51 additional
packages have been sold in the past four months, a combination of
new screens and upgrading existing facilities.  Since Dolby Labs
will only build 12 units a month through December, this translates
to some 600 units by Christmas.

The prospective 600 screen total does not include specialized 70MM
theaters, including IMAX and OMNIMAX theaters, Douglas Trumbull's
Showscan sites and Walt Disney's shows at EPCOT, Disney World, and
Disneyland.

                        18 70MM Releases Scheduled

Paramount is aiming at having the widest release yet in the wide
gauge for its May 23 opening of Lucasfilm's "Indiana Jones and the
Temple of Doom", targeted for some 200 prints in 70MM!  The final
total will be between 175 and 210 screens.  This should break the
record of 169 70MM prints held by MGM/UA's "Brainstorm" in
September, 1983.  "Jones" will have an additional 1200 35MM houses
playing from day one.  A week later (June 1), Paramount will debut
"Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" on a massive 1700 theater
break, including 100 70MM sites.  Last summer, "Return of the Jedi"
set box office records when it opened wide at 1002 theaters including
164 70MM houses.

Other upcoming 70MM fare from the major distributors will probably
have less populous wide-gauge print runs, following Warner Brothers'
current use of 15 70MM prints for "Greystoke".

The final decision of whether to blow up a particular picture to
70MM for release is still tentative, but the distributors summer
plans for 70MM are as follows:

Columbia's "Ghostbusters"  and "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle"

Universal's "Streets of Fire" and "The Last Starfighter"

Warner Brothers "Gremlins", "Once Upon A Time in America" (Ladd Co.)
and "Tightrope"

There is no word yet on other likely candidates for 70MM, such as
Warner Brothers' "Supergirl" and 20th-Fox/Sherwood's "Buckaroo
Banzai", latter title currently being mixed in six-track stereo,
just in case.

Unlike "Brainstorm", which featured Super Panavision (65MM)
principal photography for many scenes, the upcoming films are
generally being shot in 35MM formats, later to be blown up to 70MM
release prints.  Several, such as "Indiana Jones" and
"Ghostbusters", feature special visual effects material filmed in
wide screen processes such as VistaVision or Super Panavision, but
not for the live action.  This is different from Showscan and IMAX,
which actually film in the larger formats.

Fall releases in 70MM are planned for Orion's "Amadeus" and
Columbia's remake of "The Razor's Edge".  The big news come
Christmas is the impressive lineup of pictures earmarked for 70MM
release:

Columbia's "A Passage to India" by David Lean, whose 1960's
productions were also 70MM releases.

Disney-Buena Vista's "Baby"

MGM/UA's "2010: Odyssey II"

Universal's "Dune" and "The River"

Warner Brothers "City Heat"

No decision has yet been made on Orion's "The Cotton Club" and other
Yuletide fare, which could add to the list.  For 1985, so far
Disney-Buena Vista's "OZ" and "The Black Cauldron" (latter animated
picture being filmed in VistaVision to facilitate wide gauge release
prints) will be in 70MM, with the intention of servicing every
exhibitor request for a 70MM print with same.  Tri-Star Pictures'
$50M production of "Santa Claus" will also be released in 70MM.


-Eric Carter
AT&T-IS
Morristown, NJ
allegra!abnjh!cbspt005

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 8:16:10-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!watcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza

What is the reason for releasing a 70mm print of a film that was
originally shot on 35mm stock?  The resolution is going to be
determined by the original 35mm film.

(I would expect that the film stock used for the release prints
would have grain at least as fine as the original negative, since it
can be made as slow as the film manufacturer likes).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #77
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 84 1449-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #77
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:
        Books - Dick (2 msgs) & Herbert & Leiber (2 msgs) &
                MacAvoy (2 msgs) & Varley & Nebula Awards for 1983 &
                SF and Sex
        Films - 70MM Film Bonanza (3 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - A Lesson in Arabic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 10:34:07-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Man in the High Castle

I agree, I didn't care for "The Man in the High Castle" and I can't
imagine HOW it won a Hugo.  I found it terribly dull - interesting
idea, but poorly done.
  In answer to the question, it is Science Fiction in that it is
depicting a parallel universe.  I would agree that in this case,
this is a weak usage of the term.
        Cliff Shaffer
        ...!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 22:19:56-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Man in the High Castle (SPOILER)

I'm surprised no one has helped answer this question:

        Date: 24 Apr 1984 12:16-EST
        From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-G.ARPA
        Subject: Man in the High Castle

        ... Why is this book [Dick's] "greatest masterpiece"?  What
        was the point?  Somebody please tell me -- I had to force
        myself through 3/4's of the book, and only the last 3 pages
        were interesting.  And I still didn't understand.

The last three pages explain it all.  If you didn't think the
explanation there did any good, then my explanation will go right
past you too.  Apart from the novelty of Dick's book apparently
being the result of I Ching predictions about how the Second World
War resulted, there is a book contained inside CASTLE (THE
GRASSHOPPER LIES HEAVY by Hawthorne Abendsen) which is in turn the
result of I Ching predictions made in CASTLE's alternate universe.
The I Ching in our universe appears to predict the universe of THE
MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, while the I Ching in the universe of CASTLE
appears to predict a universe like ours instead.  (Not exactly like
ours, it's true.) This 'strange loop' or Yin-Yang symbolism is
peculiar enough, but the predictions are twisted still further: the
point of the book is that the literal conclusion of THE GRASSHOPPER
LIES HEAVY is in fact the metaphorical conclusion of THE MAN IN THE
HIGH CASTLE: Germany and Japan LOST THE WAR, although they appeared
to win it.  Without this explanation, none of the preceding action
with Mr. Tagomi makes any sense whatsoever.  The lesson as applied
to the real world I leave as an exercise for the reader.

Not to pick nits, but THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE is a much better
Zen book than a certain other book reviewed in this space recently.
Does anyone else have a different interpretation of CASTLE?  (By the
way, Dick was always very fond of 'strange loops' or
self-referential situations; if you like these then try UBIK -- the
entire book is a self-referential joke.  [Yes, boys and girls,
'taken as directed, Ubik provides uninterrupted sleep without
morning-after grogginess.  You awaken fresh, ready to tackle all
those little annoying problems facing you.  Do not exceed
recommended dosage.'])

        Oh, yeah, one more thing.  What makes this book science
        fiction?

As opposed to fantasy?  It depends on how you classify
alternate-world fiction in general, I think.  Some people consider
time travel to be purely fantasy and won't admit that a story about
time travel can be science fiction, because IT COULDN'T REALLY
HAPPEN.  Alternate-world novels have the same problem except in a
more severe form: 'It DIDN'T really happen.'  I personally tend to
dodge the issue and try to classify SF as 'speculative fiction'
rather than 'science fiction', in which case books like CASTLE fit
right in, as social and philosophical speculation.

Of course I may just be dense (don't quote me here) and what you're
really trying to say is CASTLE isn't STARSHIP TROOPERS or THE GRAY
LENSMAN, in which case you're quite right, and we have nothing to
discuss.  (But I don't think so, otherwise why would you have picked
up CASTLE at all?)

A Dick fan,

Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept.
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619) 452-4016
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun 6 May 84 00:21:05-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
Subject: A man of principle speaks...

     A quote from Frank Herbert, author of DUNE, DUNE MESSIAH,
CHILDREN OF DUNE, GOD-EMPEROR OF DUNE, and HERETICS OF DUNE:

"I'm still against the idea of sequels in principle, because it's
like watering down your wine all the time until you're left with
just water."

        -: from an interview in LOCUS, May 1984

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 10:48:50-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor?

<jug Issek>
Actually, that was probably the father of Fritz Leiber the sf
writer.  Mr. Leiber Sr. was a character actor in a number of old
costume dramas.  Talent seems to run in the family, Justin Leiber is
an sf writer also.

Ted Nolan                               usceast!ted 6536 Brookside
Circle
Columbia, SC 29206                      (feather the rast!)

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 13:51:48-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor?

(oo)
It could just be a coincidental name, but I think it might be
possible.  Fritz Leiber once wrote a story called "The Darfsteller,"
which was about an aging actor.  Possibly, he drew this from his own
experiences.
                               Bob Fishell
                               ihnp4!ihu1g!fish

------------------------------

Date: Fri 4 May 84 14:35:59-PDT
From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Rerebuttal about TEA

        Sigh.  If Donn Seeley and I can't agree to disagree soon, we
will generate enough verbiage between us to outweigh the novel under
dispute, TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON.

        I appreciate his crediting LOCUS.  It really is a good
magazine and deserves to be referenced.  And, yes, it was an
editorial slipup which saw R.A. MacAvoy's first name in print.  She
is not secretive, but expressed her intentions regarding her name
rather plainly when she put it on the cover of the book.

        I also appreciate Mr. Seeley's sprinklings of "in my
opinion" throughout his rebuttal.  The whole point I was trying to
make in my original response is that a review represents no more (or
less) than the reviewer's opinion.  To make sweeping statements
about the book (or worse, about the author) as if they are facts
easily discernible to any reader is overstepping the bounds of
criticism.  It is fine to talk that way to your friends (who
theoretically know how often to believe you), but it does not belong
in a published (destination unknown) review.

        The other point I wish to make now is that it is the
reviewer's responsibility (yes, there are responsibilities to this
job) to have a thorough grasp of a book's strengths and weaknesses.
In most cases, two readings should be enough.  If there is not time
for reading the book twice, there is not enough time for a review.
If the book is not worth reading twice (which is where Mr. Seeley
and I disagree most regarding TEA), then the review should say just
that.

        He calls the dialogue "flat", the point of view "wandering",
the characters "insipid", and the plot "hokey."  Whew!  It is lucky
for us both to be 500 miles apart and my fencing skills with the
foil to be a tad rough.  I call the dialogue "alive", the point of
view "incisive", and the characters "delightful".

        I feel strongly that the book is good.  I have read it three
times now.  Mr. Seeley feels it is, well, less than good, and would
likely not care to read it again.  We agree to disagree.  But let us
tentatively agree to both read it in ten years and compare notes.
Okay?

        A couple last points worth making.  R.A. MacAvoy worked as a
computer programmer for 3 years and knows her way around computers
as well as most of us.  That the computer aspect of the book was
minimized owes to the fact she felt it was of minor importance to
the plot or to the advancement of the characters.  Her choice.

        Second, regarding his statement "much better books in 1983
received lesser favors from the publisher" which was addressed to
the large number of favorable reviews on the cover -- let me point
out that the publisher circulates an early release and collects
reviews from outsiders.  Although these "outsiders" could say
anything they want, giving a favorable review to a bad book will
only damage their credibility.  The publisher certainly chooses what
gets to go on the cover in quotes, but does not get to write it.
Those terse quotations are excerpts from other reviewers, some of
whose opinions I happen to respect.  It is nice to know I am not
alone in my feelings about the book.

        One "yes" vote, and one "no" vote, then.

        And now, Gene, let's have a look at the dogs of the week ...

                                                         Ron Cain
                                                          cain@sri-ai

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 19:32:07-PDT (Mon)
From: agb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: TEA rebuttal

        I wholly agree with the rebuttal -- Tea with the Black
Dragon is one of those books that you want to read as slowly as
possible -- can't bear to have it end...

        Now, *Damiano*, on the other hand (The 2nd [?] book by R.A.
MacAvoy [sp?]), I found to be "one of those books that end up in the
trash before the seventh page"...  I just could not stomach it, and
put it down after about 20 pages, never to be picked up again...  Is
this book really worth reading?  Am I missing a book as good as
black dragon?
                                                Alexander Burchell
                                                [agb@ucbarpa]
                                                [ucbvax!agb]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 84 8:14:59-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: [4mDemon[0m

Hey!

I just saw (in Forthcoming Books in Print) that Varley is FINALLY
publishing [4mDemon[0m, the third book in his Gaea series.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 1984 14:26:06 EDT
From: Another Memo from the Etherial Plane
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Nebula Award Winners for 1983

The winners of this year's Nebula awards are as follows:

NOVEL: "Startide Rising," David Brin (Bantam)
NOVELLA:  "Hardfought", Greg Bear (Asimov's, 2/83)
NOVELETTE: "Blood Music," Greg Bear (Analog, 6/83)
SHORT STORY: "The Peacemaker", Gardner Dozois (Asimov's, 8/83)
GRAND MASTER: Andre Norton.

(For those who were wondering, 'Dozois' is pronounced Doe-zwah.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 4 May 84 02:06:07-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: sf & sex

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ sf & SEX ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now that I have your undivided attention...!

A few issues back Donn Seeley referred to Rucker's SEX SPHERE as the
dirtiest SF novel [known to him].  Has anybody read both it and
YOLANDA: THE GIRL FROM EROSPHERE, or YOLANDA: SLAVES OF SPACE?
They're the dirtiest \I've/ ever encountered-- especially the
latter.  A cosmopolitan-type friend told me they were as dirty as
anything he'd seen in Paris, which figures, since they're translated
from French.

I don't mind reading porn once in a while, if it's witty.  And I've
no objection to SF's containing sex-- or religion, or politics, or
whatever-- so long as it's integral to the story.  (Just started
Busby's new `Rissa' book, ALIEN DEBT, today, and there's already an
irrelevant sex scene on p_ 5.  Darn it!  Busby's too good a
story-teller to have to "spice it up"!)  But I tend to be somewhat
dubious of porn+SF combinations.  Not always-- LAID IN THE FUTURE in
the soft-core "Lady from L.U.S.T" series by Rod Grey is a great
put-on.

But when SF conventions are used to jazz up the monotony of porn so
it can get marketed \as/ SF, it really gripes me.  And that's all
the YOLANDA series is.  They were paperbacks from Grove Press (dunno
if that's a porn publisher, per se, or not) in 1975 & 1976, and the
earlier one was distributed by Dell.  It sure wasn't a Laurel Leaf!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 May 84 14:32:22 edt
From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza

A big advantage in releasing a print in 70MM, even though it was
filmed in 35MM is wear.  Even in the best theaters a print will pick
up dust and scratches as it is shown.  The better theaters will
replace a feature print every two or three weeks, but many will show
the same print for the entire run.  With 70MM film, a scratch on the
print will only be one quarter the size on the screen as the same
scratch on a 35MM print.  Thus one is less likely to see a poor
print in 70MM than in 35MM.
                                -Mark

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 12:41:04-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza

When blowing up a 35MM negative to 70MM, it is true that one gets no
improvement in the resolution of the original image (something from
nothing?), but the image is sharper and clearer and suffers less
geometric distortion because you are not using the anamorphic lenses
that 35MM Panavision uses, for instance, to make a wide screen
image.  These lenses "unsqueeze" the image from the film to fill out
the screen in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.  Flat 70MM projection will give
you a 2.21:1 aspect ratio and a brighter image to boot.  The
six-track Magnetic Dolby Stereo sound quality is much better than
the 4-track 35MM Dolby Stereo optical soundtrack, as well.  More
extended low and high frequency response, larger dynamic range, and
superior signal to noise ratios are some of the benefits.

The result of a 70MM release print, which costs about 6-7 times as
much to make as a 35MM print, is greater impact of the movie-going
experience.  I challenge anyone to view a properly presented film in
70MM and then in 35MM and to state their preference.

"To better films and better film venues!"

-Eric Carter
AT&T-IS
Morristown, NJ
allegra!abnjh!cbspt005

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 11:17:20-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!oscar @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza

A 35 mm print of a 35 mm original is of *poorer* quality than the 35
mm original.  By making a 70 mm print you can minimize the loss of
detail.  Of course, a 70 mm original is better yet.

You can see the same sort of thing when you get a super 8 contact
print of a super 8 original and a 16 mm optical print of the same
original.  The 16 mm print will be much better.

Oscar Nierstrasz

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 9:11:00-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Toronto book stores

Bakka is (I believe -- it is hard to tell in Roman letters) an
Arabic word meaning someone who weeps.

In Hebrew, it would be Bokheh.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #78
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 84 1526-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #78
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:
             Books - Dick (3 msgs) & Kurland & MacAvoy,
             Films - Dune (2 msgs) & 70MM Films & Star Wars (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 21:01:29-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!paul @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Man in the High Castle

> I just read Philip Dick's "The Man in the High Castle" ...  Why is
> this book his "greatest masterpiece"?

It happens to be the one that won a Hugo award (1962 or 3?).  He's
written worse, but also much better.  My favorites are "All We
Marsmen" (published as "Martian Time-Slip" by idiot publishers) and
"The Divine Invasion".

> What was the point?  Somebody please tell me -- I had to force
> myself through 3/4's of the book, and only the last 3 pages were
> interesting.  And I still didn't understand.

When I first encountered Dick's writing, I didn't like it - it
didn't read like "real SF".  Years later I gave him another try, and
was hooked.  People generally react one way or the other.

> Oh, yeah, one more thing.  What makes this book science fiction?
> (Other than the label on the front cover that says "Berkley (sic)
> science fiction")

Well, the publishing industry defines "science fiction" as "books
that have the words `science fiction' on the cover".  Actually, the
fact that it takes place in an "alternate" or "parallel" universe
contemporary with but different from our own (you DID notice, didn't
you :-)) makes it SF, I guess.

Paul Perkins
...{uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!paul
...decvax!yale-co!ima!ism780!paul
"If you don't see the fnord, it can't eat you.  Don't see the
fnord..."

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 22:13:24-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: HIGH CASTLE: Just what is sf, anyway?

> Oh, yeah, one more thing.  What makes this book science fiction?
> (Other than the label on the front cover that says "Berkley (sic)
> science fiction")
>       Bob      (Bob.Colwell@cmu-cs-g.ARPA)

Well, I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be science
fiction (Rich- ard McKenna, ofttimes sf author, had said on occasion
that he thought that his "mainstream" novel, THE SAND PEBBLES, was
science fiction --- the science was sociology (of course, there are
those who don't think that sociology is a valid science)).
Individuals have their own standards, but there are certain concepts
that are generally accepted to be "science fiction": space travel,
time travel, atomic wars, stories clearly set in the future, alien
invasions, etc. One of the more interesting of these concepts is
that of the "alternate history", of which THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE
is a perfect example.

        Perhaps this could be a good topic for discussion here.
Here's something to chew on: is SPACE by James Michener sf? It's
about space travel, but it does not present any technology that we
don't already have. Certainly the characters and situations are
largely fictional, but it's really just a recent-historical novel
about the space program. Think about it.

<"Science fiction is what I point to and say, `That's science
fiction'!">

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 8:20:08-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!un
From: m-cvax!unmvax!moret @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Man in the High Castle et alia

I am getting *very* irritated with net.sf-lovers.  After a flurry of
articles finding Solaris--which is one of the 10-20 greatest SF
novels ever, and surely a masterpiece on the nature of
communication--I had to encounter two articles wondering what
everybody thought was so great about Dick's Man in the High
Castle...  (I don't think that one has to remember WWII to react to
that book; I wasn't born by 1945.  There is a lot to get out of
Dick's novel, about everyday life, about cultural influence, about
human values, but most of all about the meaning of reality.  Why is
it SF?  Well, why is LeGuin's magnificent The Dispossessed
classified as SF?  It's just a label and should not imply anything
more than "fiction based upon a different view of the world";
doesn't SF mean Speculative Fiction?).  From the content of these
articles about Lem and Dick and several other news articles (such as
the running commentary about FTL travel and high-speed cameras), I
must conclude that I have subscribed to the wrong newsgroup.
Imagine: I thought that this newsgroup was for people interested in
SF *literature*, for people who considered SF a form of *art*, NOT a
form of technical writing.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  7 May 1984 06:14:29-PDT
From: goldenberg%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ruth Goldenberg)
Subject: Inquiry about Michael Kurland's PLURIBUS

This is in response to Craig MacFarlane's request in issue #71 for
information on PLURIBUS by Michael Kurland.

The back cover description of the book, which is pretty accurate, says

        "Somewhere on the crumbling road between the Palisades
        Encave in California and the remains of the Chicago
        Spaceport, a brightly-painted wagon rumbles along on the
        last rubber tires in the world. Mordecai Lehrer is moving
        east. His wagon is a traveling medicine show, a peddler's
        pack, home for part-time magicians - and a courier service
        for Earth's last enclaves of scientific knowledge. Ninety
        percent of Earth's population perished in the Death, and the
        remaining ten blame the perils of godless science for that
        terrible plague. They would destroy the science-enclaves if
        they could - and they grow bolder day by day.

        "But the enclaves know what the people cannot; scientists in
        the Mars colony have discovered that the plague will
        inevitably be followed by a mutant form virulent enough to
        wipe out all the survivors of the first siege. Mars has also
        found a vaccine, and even now a suicidal mission of mercy is
        racing toward the ruins of the Chicago spaceport.

        "Meanwhile Mordecai Lehrer bumps across the plains of the
        west, carrying precious instructions from the California
        enclave on how to grow and use the vaccine. He travels in
        secret, and in fear, for all around him are the people whose
        lives will be saved if he succeeds - and who would kill him
        gladly to ensure his failure."

I enjoyed it the first time around and the second-time skimming I
did to see if the title were explained anywhere. I missed any
explanation, but would guess it's taken from "E Pluribus Unum". The
US is fragmented into many different territories with different
money, governments, and leaders. About the only communication not
done by word of mouth or hand-carried letters is among the enclaves
and between one of them and the Mars colony, using jury-rigged radio
parts and hand-cranked generators. In my opinion, the dialogue and
main character [Mordecai the Mensch] are definitely a cut above
average, although the book would have benefited from more
development of some of its subsidiary threads and characters. It's
not a great book, but it's a very pleasant read.

The book was published by Ace in 1980. The publisher's book number
is 67145-4.

Ruth Goldenberg

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 2:12:07-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Sf or fantasy -- who cares??

>                         TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON is emphatically
> NOT science fiction -- I'm confused about why it is up for science
> fiction awards.  Of course I have been confused about this before
> (I like the remark attributed to Alfred Bester which I read in
> Richard Lupoff's WHAT IF? series -- 'The fans -- the wonderful,
> demented, fans...').  LYONESSE by Jack Vance, equally
> non-science-fictional, is up for a Nebula.  Oh well.

> Donn Seeley    UCSD Chemistry Dept.
> ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn

Just what is this concern about whether something is sf or fantasy?
Traditionally, the term "science fiction" is taken to include
fantasy of various flavors as well. [Actually, traditionally, sf
should be considered a subset of fantasy.]  Until the last ten years
or so, when fantasy *really* became a marketable product separate
from sf, fans simply lumped the two into one genre. The Nebulas and
Hugos have always considered stories in both fields; just because
the Hugos are labelled "the Science Fiction Achievement Awards" and
the Nebulas are awarded by the "Science Fiction Writers of America"
doesn't mean that they should ignore fantasy.
        Some years back, Lin Carter tried to start a separate series
of awards for fantasy (actually, only two per year were ever given
out, for Best Novel and for Grand-Master) called the Gandalfs, but
they eventually bit the dust. We also now have a series of World
Fantasy Conventions with its own set of awards (the Howies -- after
H. P. Lovecraft) which garner great prestige themselves, but this
still hasn't deterred fans from nominating and voting fantasy
stories for the Hugos.
        An interesting aside is that the World Fantasy Con members
tend more to separationism than do sf fans. In general, the trend is
toward, though by no means exclusively, "dark fantasy" (ie. horror).
There tends to be few stories generally considered sf nominated for
the Howies (a couple of Wolfe's New Sun novels are recent
exceptions). As a matter of fact, Stephen King turned down a
nomination for THE DEAD ZONE as Best Novel one year because he felt
that the book was sf and not fantasy.
        I tend to prefer hard sf to fantasy, myself, but let's not
start getting into a mindset that demands picky categorization.

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 10:00:23-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax
From: !unmvax!genix!drew @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dune Notes

Has my memory failed me as usual or was David Lynch the director of
Eraserhead and Elephant Man.  I was totatly amazed at how two films
could be so similar and yet so different.  Can't wait to see Dune in
any event.

Drew Einhorn
{csu-cs,gatech,lanl-a,convex,pur-ee,ucbvax}!unmvax!genix!drew
P.O. Box 781, Tijeras, NM 87059, USA.
505/281-1122  505/898-9666

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 16:55:28-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Dune Notes

Yes, David Lynch did direct Eraserhead and The Elephant Man.  Can't
wait for Pearl Harbor Day, either. "Dune" and "2010"!

-Eric Carter
AT&T-IS
Morristown, NJ
allegra!abnjh!cbspt005

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 84 9:32:58-PDT (Mon)
From: upstill @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Why release a 35MM film in 70MM

    Two reasons: one, the grain of the print is not "determined" by
the negative: there is image degradation due to grain at every
stage, regardless of the target format; finer grain/wider format
reduces the degradation.

    Secondly: brighter, sharper projection: the larger the film
area, the more light you can jam through the print without toasting
it.

   Next question...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 19:01:00-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!smu!clardy @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #65

<<FLAME ON>>

Simple and stupid.

In the movie, Darth Vader specifically stated the he did not know
that he had a daughter, and commented on how clever Obi-wan was for
hiding her from him. Go watch it again.

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 13:48:43-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Death Star Weapon

(oo)

It's not necessary for the Death Star weapon to supply all the
energy to blow up the planet, any more than the small plutonium
A-bomb that triggers the great, big fusion explosion in an H-bomb
supplies all that energy.  My hypothesis is that the Death-Star
weapon has a catalytic effect on whatever it hits, causing nuclear
reactions.  Note that in ROTJ, the Death Star weapon was used to
blow up space ships, but the energy available was limited to the
size of the object.  If it contained all the energy needed to blow
up a planet, the whole fleet would have been destroyed, and we'd
have had a rotten ending for the movie.

This is not as far-fetched as it sounds.  Experiments in controlled
fusion use massive lasers to trigger fusion reactions.  Perhaps the
Death Star weapon is just an immensly powerful laser, or more
likely, a particle beam weapon producing a high-energy wavefront.
Consider the effects of bombarding fusionable Hydrogen with a
powerful beam of, say, anti-protons.  I think you could get
something going.
                               Bob Fishell
                               ihnp4!ihu1g!fish

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 9:11:23-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!stolaf!jensenj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine

Thanks due to Will Martin for opening up this interesting topic,
How to Get Rich With a Time Machine.  Here are my thoughts:

1) I would play off of the idea that, at certain points throughout
        History, there have been situations in which a great many
        people would gladly have paid a dear sum for what, to
        others, may seem mundane and ordinary.  The problem is that
        the Clock Broker (our agent we use to make us rich) cannot
        change History appreciably.  Therefore, trading modern
        technology (Sony Betamaxes and Walkmans) to lesser developed
        cultures is right out.  Are there periods in History when
        mundane, ordinary objects commanded a high price?  Sure!
        What about the California Gold Rush of 1849?  Such ordinary
        things as pickaxes, shovels, lodging and food were sold at
        ridiculously exorbitant prices and they were paid for in
        gold, a sure commodity all through the ages.  Developing a
        pipeline from a modern day hardware store to 19th century
        California is as simple as turning a few knobs.

        And what about water?  Haven't there been literally
        thousands of situations in which people would pay anything
        for a glass of water?  (No, I haven't seen Ice Pirates yet.)

2)  My second thought concerns mankind's tendency to make war.
        At those times men will pay dearly for supplies, ammunition,
        etc.  It seems to me that, as long as the time traveler
        knows in advance who is to win what battle and why that he
        can indulge in a little black marketeering without affecting
        his own future.  As an example, take Patton near the end of
        the European conflict in WWII.  His push northward into
        Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel.  Since, in an
        historical sense, the Allies were destined to win anyway, it
        may not have made a great deal of difference who reached
        Berlin first.  Patton would have liked to do it himself and
        I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere, he would have
        paid enough for it to make it worth one's while.

Those are my thoughts for now.  Lets open this topic up and have
some serious discussions about it!
                                        Joel Jensen
                                     today, tomorrow, and forever
                                        ihnp4!stolaf1jensenj

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #79
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 May 84 1408-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #79
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:
      Books - Goldman (2 msgs) & Kingsbury & MacAvoy & Vinge,
      Films - Faithful SF Films & 2010 & 70MM Films & Star Trek (2 msgs),
      Miscellaneous - Time Travel (4 msgs) & Blowing Up the Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 1:45:27-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Goldman ?=? Morgenstern

Did William Goldman actually write THE SILENT GONDOLIERS? The fact
that S. Morgenstern's classic, A PRINCESS BRIDE, was totally
fabricated by Goldman seems to lead people to make the perhaps
unwarranted assumption that he wrote TSG as Morgenstern. I recall
that 10 years ago, most people believed that Vonnegut was re-
sponsible for VENUS IN THE HALFSHELL by "Kilgore Trout" when it was
actually by Philip Jose Farmer. Likewise, a couple of years ago, my
co-compiler and I, in our INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES:
1977, mistakenly assumed that the pseudonym John Thames Rokesmith on
the story "Writers of the Purple Page" (F&SF 5/77) was Farmer, when
it was actually Arthur Jean Cox.
        I don't have any evidence either way about whether Goldman
did or didn't write THE SILENT GONDOLIERS, but I do question the
blind assumption that he did.  Actually, there is something that
suggests that he didn't. His latest book (the title escapes me --
??COLOR OF THE THE SKY??) has a list of his previous works, fiction
and non-fiction. THE SILENT GONDOLIERS does not appear anywhere in
the list (n.b. TSG was published last fall, while the newest book
just appeared last month).
        Does anyone actually know one way or the other?

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 3:34:26-PST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!uofm-cv!janc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: William Goldman

I once checked Who's Who's entry on Goldman.  His wife is not named
Helen, and he has no son (two daughters if I remember right).
Personally, I enjoyed the Princess Bride much more once I learned
the introduction was fictitious.  I still haven't figured out why my
copy is subtitled "A Hot Fairy Tale."  It is only slightly "hotter"
than Tolkien (i.e. there is a girl in it).
                                        -- Jan Wolter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 20:33:29-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax
From: !janney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: the Wolfe Archipelago

Now that Donald Kingsbury has published both "CourtShip Rite" and
"The Shipwright", does anyone think that we will have long to wait
for

                        COURT SHIPWRIGHT
? :-)


        "It's only a model"  shhh!!
Jim Janney
{{convex,ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax,
{purdue,lbl-csam,cmcl2}!lanl-a}!unm-cvax!janney

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 6 May 84 18:06:09 EDT
Subject: "True" Names...

Uhh, the name is Asprin, not Aspirin; unless you were being ironic,
and if you were you were being ironic indeed.  (As anyone who knows
the fellow personally will understand.)

And I was disappointed to hear that R.A. MacAvoy gets bent out of
shape when people "reveal" her first name.  As a writer I can
understand the uses to which pen names are put--and I know from
experience that many people feel the taking of a pen name too
seriously is a childish affectation.  Hal Clement seems indifferent
to the world knowing that he is really Harry Clement Stubbs.  The
work--and the man--each stand on its own.

George Alex Effinger once really and truly wanted people to know him
as "Piglet," and he lost a lot of respect from a lot of people
(myself included) because of it.  When one chooses a nickname rather
than accepts one given from others, I call it an affectation.  How
you see yourself is always (for a writer) less important than how
you are seen by others.

I think TEA is a terrific book, by the way, part of a growing
subgenre of "contemporary fantasy" which I see as a titanic relief
after drowning in unicorns, cute elves, princesses, and stone
castles these past few years.  In the same category see The Land of
Laughs by Jonathan (I think; book is upstairs) Carroll; peculiar but
VERY satisfying.

And as for "Grumpy" MacAvoy, well, perhaps after she wins the Hugo
which she does in fact deserve, she will feel secure enough not to
take reviews of her work too seriously--the groundswell of popular
opinion far outweighs the idiosyncratic views of one (admittedly)
biased reader.

The lady is a helluva writer.  Someday she may even grow up.

--Jeff Duntemann
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the hot tub!"

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 9:42:00-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: True Names

From Analog 5 (ancient anthology) I recall vividly a Vinge short
story called "Bookworm, Run!"  Anyone know if this is included in a
currently available collection?  Quite good.

        Brendan Eich
        ...uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 14:06:55-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films

Another that comes to mind was "The Last Man on Earth," with Vincent
Price.  Despite the lurid and misleading title, this was a fairly
faithful adaptation of Richard Matheson's "I Am Legend," which was a
novel of an Earth taken over by, of all things, a vampire plague.

                               Bob Fishell
                               ihnp4!ihu1g!fish

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 13:24:26-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!ks @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010

I have just learned heard something absolutely terrible about the
upcoming film "2010: Odyssey 2", and I heard it directly from Arthur
himself (appearing at GWU SEDS April 30).  Arthur says that the
writer of the screenplay for his film will be Peter Hyams.  Who is
he, you say?  You're not going to like it.  Peter Hyams wrote and
directed "Capricorn One", the biggest piece of anti-space filth ever
brought to deface the silver screen.  And it wasn't a good adventure
story either, even if you don't mind the political intonations.
Arthur says that he's never met Hyams, but will meet him soon.
Evidently MGM assigned him to the project.  My expectations for the
film have dropped greatly.
     We are also told that Tony Banks (??) will be writing an
original score for the film, i.e. not much old classical music will
be used.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 7 May 1984, 18:29-PDT
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Why release a 35MM film in 70MM?
To: upstill at UCB-VAX

    Date: 30 Apr 84 9:32:58-PDT (Mon)
    From: upstill @ Ucb-Vax
        Two reasons: one, ... finer grain/wider format reduces
    the degradation.
        Secondly: brighter, sharper projection: the larger the
    film area, the more light you can jam through the print without
    toasting it.

Thirdly: the width of a scratch on the film is independent of film
width.  So a scratch on a larger print becomes smaller on the screen
due to the fact that less magnification is required in projection.
-c

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 84 11:41:22 EDT
From: Ed <Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die...

I don't think that the sensors couldn't lock onto the Reliant to
beam Genesis aboard (V9, #75) is quite the right explanation.
Having just seen ST-II on cable last night (for the umpteenth time),
the sensors were indeed working, and trained onto the Reliant (for
Spock says that he is "picking up an unusual energy wave from the
Reliant" - the Genesis Wave). If the sensors were working, it should
have been very easy to lock onto Genesis to stop it from detonating.
Another possible explanation might be that the energy wave might
have been lethal to be around (there were lots of gases coming from
Genesis when it was building up), making it somewhat difficult to be
in the Transporter Room with it at the same time.

-Ed

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 20:23:06-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!s
From: ander @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spock didnt have to die...

>   Why couldn't they do that to Genesis?? Beam it aboard, then out
> into the nebula, disintegrated?? Did Captain Spock die in vain?

Spock died for a very good reason: Nimoy demanded his death as
pre-condition to signing his contract to ST II. I remember reading
about this about 5 mon.  in advance of the film in the Wall Street
Journal. They claimed that Nimoy is tired of people calling him
'Spock' all the time....
                                        Jeremy Sanders
 {spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}
!aecom!{sanders|jsanders|sander}

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 84 12:28:00-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The Easy Road to Riches

How to get rich through time travel.

  Well there are several ways to do this.  In "the end of eternity"
by Asimov you have a society that conducts regular trade using time
ways in the same manner as we use roadways. But that is a little
more organized than you probably want.

  I remember reading one story about a scientist who invents a time
machine and goes back to the middle ages with a pocketfull of silver
coins. He hires a lawyer to manage his investments and through the
miracle of compound interest manages to aquire control of most of
the worlds wealth. He uses this money to pay for the research needed
to construct his time machine.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 7:43:53-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!bmcg!cepu!scw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine

        >1) I would play off of the idea that, at certain points
        >throughout History, there have been situations in which a
        >great many people would gladly have paid a dear sum for
        >what, to others, may seem mundane and ordinary.[ ... ]
        >literally thousands of situations in which people would pay
        >anything for a glass of water?  (No, I haven't seen Ice
        >Pirates yet.)

This would work fairly well.

        >2) My second thought concerns mankind's tendency to make
        >war.  At those times men [...] black marketeering without
        >affecting his own future.  As an example, take Patton near
        >the end of the European conflict in WWII.  His push
        >northward into Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel.
        >Since, in an historical sense, the Allies were destined to
        >win anyway, it may not have made a great deal of difference
        >who reached Berlin first.  Patton would have liked to do it
        >himself and I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere,
        >he would have paid enough for it to make it worth one's
        >while.

The problem here is twofold. (1) George Patton was not an extremely
wealthy man. and (2) Do you have any idea how much fuel Patton's
IIIrd Army used? It took a whole bunch of trucks (1000's) running
~24 hours a day to keep him supplied.  Also you'd be substantially
changing local (time wise) history.  If Patton had reached Berlin
first a whole lot of things would be different. (1) Berlin would not
have been flattened nearly as throughly as it was (the Soviets
deliberately caused as much extra damage as they could).  This would
have far reaching effects in the attitude of the DDR.  (2) Dresden
probably would not have been bombed.  (3) The Warsaw Ghetto uprising
probably would have been successful (the Soviets would not have sat
on their asses across the river, and the German Army would have had
more of its forces on the western front [80% of the German Army was
on the Eastern front]).

Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology)
uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcsvax!bmcg}!cepu!scw
ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-locus       location: N 34 06'37" W 118 25'43"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 1984  18:02 EDT
From: TERZOP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: time travel `paradoxes'

"If I go back in time and kill my grandfather, will I cease to
exist?"  This question assumes that time travel is possible.  Then,
is there any meaning to this phrase "cease to exist" when you have
just assumed that you can cut yourself off from the normal framework
of time?  In what sense can you start or stop existing when the
concepts involve the passage of time?  In the sense of `the world',
you already ceased to exist at the moment you left at the "future"
end of your time jump.  You also started existing at the "past" end
of the jump in a similar fashion.  If you want to argue that you
will have a `subjective' time in which such a thing can happen, I
reply that if you cease to exist, you haven't any subjective time
any longer (yes, I realize I'm also using passage-of-time language
in an inappropriate context, but time travel does that to grammar).

I read an interesting idea on this `paradox': The Overlords of War
(or something like that) by G. Klein (I think the G is for Gerard or
Gerald or some such name; and the book is a translation).  This
thesis is that if you try to do such a thing, you set off a
`timequake' -- a series of oscillations in time which damp
themselves out in some unspecified manner to get rid of the
disturbance (usually you!).  In what sense you can have oscillations
when time is considered a static dimension is left to the reader's
imagination.  I will try to dig out the book and send a full
reference.
                                        der Mouse

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 18:12:30-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine

I think that I might just go back to the method used in I Dream of
Jeanie, where she goes to the track with her master with tomorrow's
results.

STILL waiting for the bolt from the skies,

Walt Pesch
AT&T Technologies
ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 84 16:27:27-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Our continuing plan to blow up the Earth...

2 May 1984

     The center of a planet is likely to contain a high
concentration of uranium and thorium.  They are heavy and sink to
the middle of planets with fluid cores.  Now Star Wars was set "A
long, long time ago".  U-235 has a shorter half-life than U-238,
thus the concentration was higher earlier in the life of your
average planet.  Far enough back, it would have been a fissionable
mix.

     Now, what you do is fire a VERY high power laser at the planet.
This bores a hole to the center.  Now fire a pulse of neutrons into
the core, which causes a small (relatively) detonation from enhanced
fission.  This blows a hole in the middle of the planet, compressing
the remainder of the core.  As the density increases, the rest of
the material fissions.

     KABLOOEY!

P.s.  Hi, Peter. How do I send messages to you directly?

                                                    Dani Eder
                                                    Boeing Aerospace
                                                    ssc-vax!eder

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #80
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 May 84 1332-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:
          Books - Calvino & Dewdney & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                  Leiber & Story Request,
          Films - 2010 (2 msgs) & Faithful SF Films (2 msgs) &
                  Star Wars,
          Television - V: The Final Battle (2 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Thanks & How to Get Rich ( 2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply-to: G.CUNYVM=JDALC012@BERKELEY
Date: Fri, 04 May 84  19:24 EST
From: JDALC012@CUNYVM
Subject: I'm the kid on the block.

     Does anyong know the author Italio Calvino?  He's an Italian 
author who writes some very wierd stuff. I have only found one of his
novels, called T-Zero, and was engrossed in it instantly.

                    Samwise
                    aka Sam
                    g.cunyvm=lc012

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 1984 0918-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: review of "The Planiverse"

"The Planiverse" by A. K. Dewdney
Subtitle: "Computer Contact with a Two-Dimensional World"

    Here's an odd and intriguing book.  It's a thorough exploration
of what happens when you take one dimension out of the world.
Dewdney has worked out what happens to biology, chemistry, physics,
traffic patterns, weather, and even computer design.  Remember
"Flatland", the Victorian novel about A. Square?  Dewdney has taken
Abbott's plain piece of cloth and turned it into a Persian carpet.
     The premise is that a computer science professor has set his
students the task of modelling a two-dimensional world as an
exercise in software engineering.  They build a planet and give it
continents, oceans, an atmosphere, and even simple life forms.  Some
advanced students put in features like a natural language query
interface, and a means of simulating some portions of the world in
great detail while only approximating the rest.  One day as they are
watching one of the creatures, it starts giving responses that are
not in the program.  Its vocabulary and grammar improve beyond what
they put in and it develops a complex set of internal organs.
Somehow they've come in contact with a real two-dimensional world.
The creature's name is Yendred and he lives on the planet Arde.
They follow him about his daily life, and tag along when he goes on
a religious pilgrimage to the far side of the continent.
     The computer contact premise is pretty hard to swallow, but
it's fine as a dramatic device.  There is no way, after all, that
three-dimensional and two-dimensional beings could physically
interact (in "Flatland" Abbott contacted his creatures in dreams).
The computer lets the human characters explore this world, and being
able to talk to the creatures in it gives them some local
perspective.
     The fun of the book is in figuring out how the 2D world would
work.  Grabbing a piece of string, for instance, is difficult
because you can't put your hand around it. Houses have to be
underground because otherwise passers-by would have to climb over
them.  When it rains the water cannot soak into the ground because
every time a rock comes into contact with another rock it forms a
seal that the water cannot penetrate.  In our world a line contact
is a seal, but in the Planiverse all it takes is a point.  He works
out the implications for just about everything (my favorite is the
2D clock), apparently with the help of people from all over the
country.
     Dewdney also has a piece in the Computer Recreation column in
the May Scientific American.  He goes from two dimensions down to
one in describing a game he calls "Core Wars".  Two organisms
(programs) are put into a section of memory.  A supervisory program
called Mars lets them take alternate turns executing.  The goal is
to prevent the other program from executing, generally by writing
over it.  Elaborate strategies for defense and offense can be worked
up.  It sounds like the man has a real penchant for subworlds.

John Redford (vlsi @ dec-marlboro)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 1984  18:02 EDT
From: TERZOP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein???

Those `kids' were hardly mentioned in Time Enough for Love (I can't
recall their being mentioned at all!).  They were talked about
rather a lot in Methusalah's Children though.

                                        der Mouse

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 84 16:29:14-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!uofm-cv!itivax!husak @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein???

As regards psychics in Heinlein, may I recommend "Gulf","Elsewhen"
and "Lost Legacy" in the collection "Assignment in Eternity". Also
the story "Project Nightmare" collected in "The Menace from Earth."

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 21:34:47-PDT (Thu)
From: sri-unix!hplabs!hao!seismo!harpo!decvax!decwrl!boyajian@akov68.D
From: EC
Subject: re: Fritz Leiber -- the Actor??

I'm afraid I have to point out that Leiber did not write "The
Darfstellar" --- Walter M. Miller, Jr. did. However, Leiber *has*
written some drama-oriented short stories. Also, if you pay
attention while reading THE BIG TIME, you might notice that it reads
as if it were intended to be a stage play.
        As to whether Fritz the Writer is Fritz the Actor: others
have pointed out that Leiber Sr. is the actor and Leiber Jr. is the
writer. This is certainly the case. It should be mentioned, however,
that Leiber Jr. *has* done some small amount of acting, though it
was not his career as it was his father's.
        Now, if one *really* paid attention to film credits on old
movies, one may someday notice sf writer/fan Wilson (Bob) Tucker's
name pop up as a lighting engineer. Forry Ackerman also tends to pop
up in cameos in assorted sf/horror movies.

                          --- jayembee
                              (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard)
                        UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian)
                        ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 84 10:06:08-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: story source ?

Yet another "search those memories" request....

20 years ago (I was 4 years old) I read a short story, title
probably "Tatters" in a collection of short stories about cats.  The
story was about a small cat named Tatters who died it's ninth death,
but due to a screw-up was sent to Dog Heaven instead.  It all comes
out all right in the end.

Can anyone tell me the author and source for this story?

Many Thanks (just for trying)
Alice Bentley
...seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 18:34:16-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 2010 - Peter Hyams

Peter Hyams, the writer, producer and director of the film version
of 2010 announced when given the project by MGM/UA that the tone of
the film would not be anything like 2001, i.e. ponderous, enigmatic,
even stately.  Which is a fundamental difference between how the two
books read, as well.  Don't expect the same sort of film-going
experience that 2001 provided.  But if they did their homework, and
used some well-bridled imagination, it could be a bang-up
entertainment!  One thing for sure, the special effects are being
done by the best in the business, Doug Trumbull's Entertainment
Effects Group, under the tutelage of triple Oscar-winner Richard
Edlund("Alien", "The Empire Strikes Back", "Return of the Jedi").

The cast of 2010:
Roy Scheider, John Lithgow, Bob Balaban, Keir Dullea, Helen Mirren,
Douglas Rain, Savely Kramarov, Elya Baskin, Oleg Rudnik, Natasha
Shneider, Vladimir Skomarowsky, Victor Steinbach.

Eric Carter
AT&T-IS
S. Plainfield, NJ
allegra!abnjh!cbspt005

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 May 84 18:53:42 PDT
From: Douglas J. Trainor <trainor@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010

[In regards to the unsigned message about 2010...]

So you don't like Hyams.  Well I don't like people ripping apart
directors and actors solely based on one film.  The news media
suffers greatly from this.  So CAPRICORN ONE wasn't up to par, you
can't condemn the guy forever.  Have you seen one of his more recent
films, like OUTLAND?  You make it look like Clarke doesn't approve.
Clarke & Hyams have been in constant communication (via computer no
less) since the beginning.

As for the music, Tony Banks (of Genesis) is great.  It would be
easy for Hyams to pull out some classic, I admire him for doing
something new.

Why don't you wait and see the film...

        Douglas James Trainor
        Video Image Associates, MGM/UA
        Marina Del Rey, CA

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 13:47:10-PDT (Thu)
From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films

How about The Incredible Shrinking Man? I don't remember Richard
Matheson's novel that well, but I think they were pretty close, save
that Matheson's title was simply "The Shrinking Man". Perhaps he
wanted to make this shrinking as credible as possible :-)

        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 84 12:25:12-PST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: faithful SF films

Here is a response from another off-net friend of mine concerning
the orginal posting of SF films faithful to the novels.

>    ecl is a little confused about THINGS TO COME in its various
>    forms.  There is a book called THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME by
>    H. G. Wells.  It is non-fiction and is speculation about the
>    future.  Wells then wrote a screenplay for a story set in this
>    future to be filmed by Alexander Korda.  That was the film
>    THINGS TO COME.  The screenplay is also available, so there
>    really is a book called THINGS TO COME, but it is merely the
>    screenplay of the film.  The film does diverge from the
>    screenplay occasionally, but in general they are pretty close
>    as one would expect.  The characters and the story of the film
>    do not appear in the book.  There is also a lousy Flash Gordon
>    imitation that had the gall to call itself H. G. WELLS' THE
>    SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME, but in spite of a character being
>    named Cabal, it has nothing to do with the earlier film or any
>    book by Wells.  That film was made in Canada about 1979.
>                                           Mark Leeper
>                                           hocse!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Reply-to: G.CUNYVM=JDALC012@BERKELEY
Date: Fri, 04 May 84  19:24 EST
From: JDALC012@CUNYVM
Subject: I'm the kid on the block.

     I just got on this list and I would like to contribute what I 
can.  I am curious what Star Wars gossip might be flying around as to
whether there will be anymore?  Will someone other than Lucas pick up
the series?

                    Samwise
                    aka Sam
                    g.cunyvm=lc012

------------------------------

Date: Tue 8 May 84 07:07:16-MDT
From: William G. Martin <WMartin@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
Subject: "V"

I just thought that I'd point out that the alien "Visitors" in "V"
went to the Imperial Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship.

It seems that the more advanced your weaponry, the less likely you
are to hit anything with it. (At least in the movies, though I think
we can draw a parallel in real life -- contrast the "make every shot
count" philosophy and long & detailed marksmanship training of the
soldiers who carried Springfields, Mausers, and Enfields in WWI with
the "hold it over your head, close your eyes, and spray" technique
of the grunts with M-16s so often pictured in VietNam war footage.)

Will

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 84 13:10:47 EDT
From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) <wmartin@BRL-VGR.ARPA>
Subject: Nonsense in "V"

A striking and gratuitous continuity goof in "V" -- Much was made,
at the end of the second episode of "The Final Chapter", of the girl
baby having a forked tongue. Yet, when she is used to save the world
at the end of the third episode, close-ups show her licking her lips
several times -- her tongue is an ordinary human one at that point.
It wouldn't have been hard or expensive to use some sort of rubber
prosthesis in those scenes, but they just didn't bother. Humph.

By the way, I probably missed this due to flicking between channels
so I could also watch the destruction of Pompeii, but was the silly
business of the little girl turning all sparkly and reversing the
blow-up of the mother ship ever explained in any fashion? I thought
she was simply going to know the secret code, punch it in, and turn
off the destruct mechanism. Doing it the way they did was SO
hokey...

The obvious lead-in for a possible sequel, with Diana taking off in
the shuttle craft (shades of Darth Vader in his fighter at the end
of SW - ANH!) was just too "cute" for words...

This story was so full of holes, to criticize it will be like
blaming a colander for not holding water!

Will

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 84 13:38:08-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcrvax!paulb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Thanks!!!

<I know you're out there, but I may not be...>

        This net is a veritable wealth of information.  Several
        articles ago I posted a request for Spider Robinson books
        and a query about "True Names".  The response was
        overwhelming.  Aside from the netnews on the subjects, I
        received about 30 pieces of mail.

        So, thank you all, I now know exactly where to go and what
        to buy.  Wow!


                        Paul R. Bonneau
                        {utzoo|watmath|decvax}!hcrvax!paulb
                        (new path!)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 84 12:15:37-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine

While not strictly a time travel story, I can remember reading a
short about a man who placed $1 in the bank to accumulate interest
payable to his descendant in the fiftieth generation. By the time
that it became payable, it represented all the assets in Earth,
Venus, and Mars. The 49th generation person died without issue, and
so the world goal of Communism (which was by this time long quashed)
became reality when the government took default.

Was it in Mathematical Magpie, maybe???  Hmmmm....

                Lyle McElhaney
                (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 13:24:17-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: $1 in the bank

[Penalty for early withdrawal]

The story about the man who willed $1 to his fiftieth-generation
heir was in Fadiman's earlier anthology, _Fantasia Mathematica_.  I
wonder what economists would think of that story.

Col. G. L. Sicherman
...seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #81
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 May 84 1402-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #81
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:
           Books - Comstock & Leiber (2 msgs) & MacAvoy &
                   Tevis & Analog & Libertarian SF & 
                   Author's Names & Hugo/Nebula Request,
           Films - Faithful SF Films (# msgs) & 2001 & 
                   Roll-your-own SF Films

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 13:31:00-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: hardcore sci-fi??? - (nf)

(buy him books, send him to college and all he does is play on the
damn computer)

  recently while looking for a new book to read at b. daltons i came
across what appeared to be a good looking (notice i said looking)
science fiction book.  well being an avid fan of a little sex with
my sci-fi, i decided that the sultry looking cover might just make
this book interesting...
  well, i got into reading the book, "these lawless worlds" by
jarrod comstock, and i think i got a little science fiction with the
sex.  were talking some hardcore porn here... now mind you i don't
mind a little sex when reading, i mean i love heinlein books (read
every book he's written so far), but this was a little to hardcore
for my particular tastes.
  the book's story is kind of as follows: on the technological
planet of magadis, there are four classes 1) the tech's 2) the
robots 3) the non-techs and 4) women. ( a little sexist here )
  the story begins on a satellite of the planet, which watches
everything that happens on the planet.  then a new worker comes to
the satellite and finds there are two modified robots there (both
physically and mentally), that are programmed to receive the "gift"
from humans.  well the boys on the satellite give the gift to these
two robots quite often and finally one of the robots cracks and
kills them all.
  enter our hero, aleria farrell and her faithful sidekick jemall.
a little background here, aleria farrell is a judge for the
confederation of planets and jemall is her baliff.  well the planet
of magadis, wanting an impartial judge calls for one from the
confederation, not knowing they would be receiving a woman judge.
from there we go into approx 110 pages of sex and then get back to
the storyline. not bad for a 231 page book.  it made interesting
reading but definitely not for the kids.

 - eric l. smith
   !ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 7:58:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!emjej @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf)

The question is (as all can see by now), was this THE Fritz Leiber
or not?  Did the author of the Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser series
begin as a Hollywood character actor?  Surely there must have been
only one Fritz Leiber, or was there another?

I second the question, in reference to a truly horrid movie called
*Equinox* (watch for the fellow who played Herb Tarlek on *WKRP*,
among others who are just as convincing as teenagers as Robert
Vaughn was in *Teenage Caveman*). I'd like to think that the
gentleman who writes such classic SF, fantasy, and science essays
wouldn't have touched this turkey...
                                                James Jones

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 84 23:38:26-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf)

        Re Fritz Leiber and "Equinox": I'm sorry to be the one to
have to tell you but, yes, it was Fritz "Fafhrd" Leiber, the SF
writer, in the movie (ref. John Stanley's "Creature Feature Movie
Guide"). Not only that, but Jim Danforth worked on the special (?)
effects. The only comfort I can offer is that Leiber had nothing to
do with the script.
        I have a confession to make: I *liked* "Equinox". I was
deeply into Carl Jung at the time I saw it, and was able to read all
kinds of archetypal symbolism in between the lines, pure and
unsullied by reality, just like a fairy tale. Those who were with me
looked at me *very* strangely when I told them about this. Haven't
seen the pic since it opened; wonder what I'd think of it now?
                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                                Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:          {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 84 15:07:27-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!ehrlich @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE:RE:TEA rebuttal (Damiano)

    Are you missing something as good as TWTBD (by discarding
Damiano)?  Depends on why you liked the black dragon.  The two books
of the Damiano series out so far (there will be three) are different
in many ways from TWTBD.  Personally, I enjoyed them just as much,
and am looking forward (if not with baited breath) to the third.  I
think it helps to be a history buff.  This is pretty good historical
fantasy, not mainstream sf (but then, neither was Macavoy's 1st
book).  Strikes me as a pleasing story with a blend of action--much
of it magical, and dream.  The period (~petrarchan) is not my
specialty but the setting has a ring of authenticity.  More, the
fantasy itself seems appropriate to the time.  The magical beings
and happenings are not so much what one finds in current "medieval"
fantasy, but seem closer to such things a fantasist of the time
might have written.
    For all that, the prose is not stilted or pseudo-archaic, and
though the fantasy and the characters are of largely Christian
flavour, by the end of book 2 there is a distinct touch of ecumenism
which may be closer to the 20th century author's mind set than that
of the period.  There's also more than a little wit/humour.  The
plot: Young man who has lived somewhat sheltered life is forced by
circumstance to set forth on journey wherein he discovers the world
and self.  Nothing new as basic plots go, but there've been some
fine things done with it over the years.  Damiano may not be the
finest ever, but I found it an enjoyable read... not a break- neck
pace, but far from boring.
     If you liked TWTBD because there was mention of computers
and/or Zen, you won't find them in the Damiano books.  The
characters are also rather different.  Still, if you threw down the
book after a few pages, you might find it worthwhile to pick it up
again.  (Kept me up until 3AM, but...)
                      Karen Ehrlich

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 22:45:38-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxhh!kurt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: a book you must read

You must read:

        the steps of the sun
        by  walter tevis

It is one of the best books I have read in a year.
It is a fine work of science fiction.
If you dont read it your missing a lost night of sleep.
I couldnt put it down.

also read tea with black dragon , it is only related as it is the
last book I have read and not slept for.

Kurt Gluck SPL 1c273a Bell Communications Research Inc 6 Corporate
Place Piscataway NJ, 08854
ihnp4!pyuxhh!kurt                   (201)-561-7100 x2023

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 84 8:09:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!emjej @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: True Names - (nf)

Another of his *Analog* shorts, sometime in 1972 I think, concerned
a sentient colonizing ship with some flavor of humans (I forget
whether they were full-grown and in suspended animation or just
gametes) aboard.  I don't recall the title.

                                        James Jones

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 08:32 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Libertarian SF

Does anyone have a list (or an interest in) SF with a Libertarian
theme?

I am speaking of such books as :
        "Alongside Night"       - J. Neil Schulman
        "An Enemy of the State" - F. Paul Wilson
        "The Probability Broach" (and its sequels) - L. Neil Smith

Does anyone know any other books by these authors?

By the way, I heartily recommend all of these books, especially
"Alongside Night".

Tom Perrine
{tom@LOGICON.ARPA}

------------------------------

Date: Wed 9 May 84 09:48:57-PDT
From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Author's names

        There has been some discussion about authors who write under
a pseudonym or their initials and prefer to keep their "real" names
off the record.  Naturally, the reasons for this are as varied as
the authors themselves, but I can name one reason I have heard
voiced by more than one which I consider valid.

        If I were to write under the name J. H. Smith, people
meeting me for the first time might be introduced to me as Mr.
Smith, or as John Smith.  It would then be my privilege to say "my
friends call me John".

        However, if I wrote as John H. Smith, perfect strangers
would feel justified in calling me "John" without a formal
introduction.  For those who prefer formal introductions or that
such familiarity be mutual (i.e. anyone calling me by my first name
had better give me his/her first name in the same sentence), then I
can see the reason for keeping their "real" name out of print.

        And whatever the reason, the name appearing on the cover is
the author's preference.  To circumvent that is to deny the author
the privilege of choice and of privacy.  The fact that the SF-LOVERS
BBOARD has seen messages calling authors "grumpy" or "touchy" or
"secretive" when their first names are discovered merely
demonstrates that very problem.  It is an age-old problem; some
readers can be insensitive to an author's wishes.

        Admittedly, the point is a trivial one, but as one who
values privacy highly, I can at least sympathize.

                                                Ron Cain
                                                cain@sri-ai

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 84 21:42:53-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Hugo/Nebula request

    I have kind of lost track of the Hugo and Nebula awards
recently.  The most currrent list I have has entries only up to
about 1977.  Can anyone who has a current list (or simply knows them
offhand) post a article with the Hugo and/or Nebula winners for the
last five or so years in the novel, novelette, and short stories
categories?
                            Mark Vita
                            Dartmouth College
                            {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 11:06:00-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films

 > Another that comes to mind was "The Last Man on Earth," with
 > Vincent Price.  Despite the lurid and misleading title, this was
 > a fairly faithful adaptation of Richard Matheson's "I Am Legend,"
 > which was a novel of an Earth taken over by, of all things, a
 > vampire plague.

This movie was remade with Charleton Heston playing the main
character.  It was called "The Omega Man."

--> Allen <--
ihnp4!ihuxb!alle

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 14:07:36-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: faithful SF films (...Things to Come)

Just one further note of confusion about `Things to Come' vs.  `The
Shape of Things to Come': The movie known here by the first title
was also released in Britain by the second one.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 84 11:57:41 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: faithful films

The recent (last year) animation of Peter S. Beagle's THE LAST
UNICORN.  The movie had a number of problems, but I found it
faithful to the spirit of the book -- something which all too few
screen adaptations can claim.

Ditto, to a lesser extent, the animation of THE PHANTOM TOLLBOOTH.

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 84 18:08:52-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!knight @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: why not iapetus?

> there was a very specific reason why bowman & poole & hal & co.
> went to jupiter and not iapetus in 2001.  doug trumbull did up a
> saturn for kubrick and kubrick didn't like it--wasn't colorful
> enough for him.  so trumbull made up a jupiter, turned up thehue
> and intensity a little, and kubrick decided jupiter was better.  i
> always resented the guy for that.  the switch greatly damaged the
> credibility of the movie as sf, and all for the sake of bands on a
> plaster planet.  urrkh.

> this from a book by jerome agel (i think; it's been years) called
> the making of 2001 or something like that.

Did we read the same book?  As I recall, the problem was that they
simply could not come up with a believable way of representing the
rings, and it was a collective decision (on both Kubrick's and
Trumbull's parts) to switch to a planet that was easier to produce
*believably* on film (i.e., better a good Jupiter than a poor
Saturn).  I have a difficult time believing that someone like
Kubrick, who approached making "2001" with as much integrity as he
did, would turn fickle over whether he liked the colours or not.

"If you lived here, you'd be home by now."

        Steve Knight
        {seismo,allegra,some other sites}!rlgvax!knight

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 84 15:53:26-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Roll-your-own SF Films

     The years since "Star Wars" have been fat ones for SF film
lovers. Lots of good things to see (especially if you're not *too*
choosy[:-)]). But have you noticed how few of "our" favorite SF
books get made into movies? Lots of original screenplays, but rarely
a "Dune". If you're like me, you have some pet candidates for SF
books you'd like to see on that silver screen, stuff you know would
knock 'em dead at the BO (that's showbiz talk for box office)...
well, here's your chance to tell the world what it's missing; what
SF book/story would you like to see become the next big-budget,
brilliantly directed-and-acted film extravaganza? Why? Who would you
cast for what? Who should direct?
     Rather than simply sitting back and waiting for the inevitable
and overwhelming popular response to this fascinating question, I'll
go ahead and kick this off myself. I nominate "The Stars My
Destination", by Alfred Bester. It has all the action and visual
splendor any "Star Wars" fan could ask for, and a proven plot (it's
a pretty direct lift from "The Count of Monte Cristo"). The pace is
headlong, yet the story has more levels than just the up-front
action. Opportunities for spectacular SFX are many: the Burning Man,
flashing from place to place; the New Year's Day atomic attack on
New York City, seen through the eyes of Lady Olivia, who is blind
except in the infrared region; the guests at Presteign's party
arriving in every form of conveyance known to man.
     And the costumes! Period clothes from every period, side by
side. Architecture huge and Baroque. The desolation of space. And a
man with the face of a tiger.
     Steve Spielberg should direct, I think. Casting I'm less
certain of; probably Margaret Avery ('Heather LaLache' in "The Lathe
of Heaven") as Robin Wednesbury, possibly Robert DeNiro as Gully
Foyle.
     OK, your turn, netland! You, too, can be a producer!

                                           Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA
      Electric Avenue:      {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #82
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 84 1302-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
       Books - Goldman & Kurland & Kurtz & Leiber (2 msgs) &
               Moorcock & Sf or Fantasy (2 msgs),
       Films - Indiana Jones & 2010 (2 msgs) & Roll-your-own SF Films &
               Star Trek,
       Television - V: The Final battle (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 84 16:30:11-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Princess Bride (SPOILER)

[Prepare to die!]

A rather obvious tipoff was the names of the two realms: "Florin"
and "Guilder."  Synonyms - check your dictionary (NOT the gazetteer
section).

Col. G. L. Sicherman
...seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 84 10:08 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Michael Kurland

Does anyone know of other novels/shorts written by Michael Kurland.
I enjoyed Pluribus very much, and wanted more.

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 1984  10:01 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Deryni

        Isn't the new Deryni book supposed to be out around now?
Anyone heard anything about it?

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 84 20:03:00-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!heuring @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf)

The Darfsteller Was NOT written by Leiber!  It was written by Walter
M.  Miller Jr.  and can be found in the book The Best of Walter M.
Miller, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 84 6:25:00-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf)

It's very likely THE Fritz Leiber. His parents were Shakespearian
actors, and he spent several years on the stage and in films
himself.  I think this was when he was in his 20's and before he
started writing.  Fantasy Newsletter/Review/<your name here> has
been carrying autobiographical articles from Leiber for several
issues now -- a good series, may even come out as a book eventually.
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 May 84  16:06 EST
From: JDALC012@CUNYVM
Subject: Elric of Melnibone, and Holographic Universes.

     In a recent conversation with a friend, he showed me where you
might find the metaphysical assumption(s) that Micheal Moorcock used
in creating the Elric series.

         ...And universe and individual are linked, the one mirrored
          in the other, and each contains the others.
                                -The chronicle of the Black Sword

This quote can be found in the beginning of the fourth part of the
last of the series, Stormbringer. I found my friend's comment
interesting and wondered what the implications of a holographic
universe might be.  Could I walk across shadow to Amber and find I
could travel anywhere ???
                                     -Sam
                                     g.cunyvm=jdalc012

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 84 8:52:44-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!hhb!rob
From: @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "What is SF"

        What is SF?

        The answer to that question has eluded many a 'Literature of
Science Fiction' class.  You're on shaky ground when you try to
make objective demarcation in the land of Art.

        Good fiction of any genre is able to achieve what is known
as the 'suspension of disbelief' - where the author knows the reader
is aware he is reading fabrication, and yet, wishing the reader to
nevertheless be able to identify with character and action, tries to
make the fabrication more real by supplying rationalizations and
plausible explanations for the fictional elements.

        Readers of SCIENCE fiction are supposed to be of a more
demanding nature when it comes to the plausibility of fictional
elements in a story.  Many of them possess a greater familiarity
with the workings of REAL world 'elements' as diverse as machines,
political systems, economic policies, etc, than the average reader.
SCIENCE fiction is therefore characterized by a stronger attempt on
the author's part to supply background and incidental factual
information to support the conjectures in his story, and to remain
consistent within the logic of the reality he creates.

        Poor science fiction, failing to 'involve' the reader, can
evoke as much distaste in its audience as a bad romance or western
or mystery novel can in their audiences.  It is a matter of
satisfying the reader - of gently hoodwinking him, like a good
magician, and not being perceived as merely a charlatan.  No one
wishes to be taken for a fool in the area of his interests, and what
he reads reflects his interests.

        In general, science fiction stories deal with a reality
which, in at least one major respect, differs from 'our' reality
enough to require some skill on the author's part in finessing the
'lie' past the reader.  All other genres have characters, settings,
props, motives, conflicts, and resolutions that while perhaps
improbable in our reality, are at least not impossible.

        The fantasy stories, and other stories which explore things
other than just the ramification of gadgets, which have been
included in the genre, now no longer science fiction but
'speculative fiction' for this reason, tend to be self-consistent
and believable as well (at least the good ones), more so than
other works of literature which make no attempt to cater to an
especially critical and educated readership.  The good fantasy
is almost poetic, and engages in flights of fancy at least as
dramatic as one at light speed to a distant star.

        Lest people who read sf feel too buttered-up, however, let
me repeat the views of a Lit-of-SF teacher (and I use the term
loosely) I had once.  He felt that all sf stories had themes which
appealed solely to our more child-like desires - to defeat an (often
evil) authority figure (dad, perhaps?), to romance a beautiful and
willing princess, defeating all opposition (but is this a desire of
only children?), to be recognized by some benevolent power as having
hidden talents, and various others.  Looking back on the stories I
liked, I have to admit that many of them conformed to that scheme.
Many, however, did not, and I think that the genre as a whole has
matured considerably.  Complaints by the snooty about lack of
characterization and shallow motivations are not as justifiable as
they once were.

        But back to my original (although never clearly expressed)
point: I think it is a waste to go drawing borders in the land of
Art.  Do we each need justify our own private Dewey Decimal System?
Just walk into a bookstore (or a movie theater, or a playhouse or
concert hall) and pay attention to what you like.

        I'll let others be content to while away their daydreams on
a desert isle, or out on the range, or in foggy London.  I enjoy
trips to more exotic destinations, in more eccentric company, on
more grand quests.  But I also want to know how I'll get there, and
if I can breathe the air. (I can't help it.)

rob
{decvax,inhp4,allegra}!philabs!hhb!rob

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 12:54:25-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Sf or fantasy -- who cares??

   I beg your pardon, but it's not true that "until fantasy recently
became a marketable product, people tended to lump SF and fantasy
together into one category." SF was what John Campbell printed in
Astounding, while fantasy was what he published in Unknown.
   Seriously, picky people have been trying to distinguish between
SF and fantasy for quite a few years now, at least since the 1940's.
By the '60's, the state of the controversy was that (a) an
easy-going subset of sf fandom, including Judith Merrill, had
decided that "sf" meant "speculative fabulation", or whatever; (b)
another subset had decided that "even if I can't define it, I >know<
what sf is, and it ain't fantasy!"
   As for myself, I don't really care; I'm willing to accept
Campbell's definitions, although I can't really decide where "The
Incompleat Enchanter" et seq lies.
   A common attitude seems to be "I like science fiction, and I like
this book; therefore, this book is science fiction"; or, "...and I
don't like this book, so it isn't science fiction."  The arguments
on the net so far seem to have a distinct flavor of this attitude.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 9:29:08-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Indy Jones and the Temple of Doom

A local radio station talked to a person who saw Indiana Jones and
the Temple of Doom Saturday morning at the Lucasfilm employees
preview. He worked for Lucasfilm, so his comments might be
prejudiced, but he said that he loved it and that, believe it or
not, it made Raiders of the Lost Ark look slow. Anyone got a spare
pacemaker to lend?

(Looking eagerly forward to opening day....)
>From the closet of anxieties of:                Chuq Von Rospach
{amd70,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui         (408) 733-2600 x242

Half asleep I hear a voice; is it only in my mind?
Or is it someone calling me, someone I failed and left behind?

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 84 13:31:31-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 2010 - Peter Hyams

        A trivia question for the net - I note in the previous
message that Douglas Rain will be in the cast of "2010"; well, he
was also in "2001". Anybody know what part he played?
        I'll post the correct answer in a few days if needed.
                                        Regards,
                                           Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA

Electric Avenue:              {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 12:46:41 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: 2010:  Odyssey Two

Peter Hymans is writing AND directing 2010.  He is also (yes) the
director of Capricorn One--and--The Star Chamber and Outland...

Special Effects are being handled by the Doug Trumbull group...

Music is being done by Tony Banks, of the rock group Genesis.  It
will most likely be a totally "synthetic" score, instead of the
recent trend in 64- piece orchestras...

Re--a recent message on why in 2001 the Discovery went to Jupiter
and not Saturn.  The author of that message was partially correct.
In Jerome Agel's Making of 2001 (Signet Books), it is stated that
the main difficulty was the RINGS of Saturn, not the coloration of
the planet.  After all (as it is stated in the book), the two
planets look fairly alike...gas giants with lost of bands of clouds.
The problem was finding a way of depicting the rings so that they
did not look *fake*.

It should be noted that Trumbull was eventually able to solve this
problem, and sent a ship to Saturn in the movie Silent Running...

Respectfully submitted,
Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 13:13:19-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Roll-your-own SF Films

[not quite S-F but...]

        If there is one series I would like to see translated to
    celluloid, it is Zelazny's Amber series.  It would have to be
    directed by someone who has a good feeling for motivation &
    character, AND a good sense of epic fantasy (no easy task).  Art
    direction would need to be given to someone with a GREAT
    imagination!  [unfortunately, it'll never happen.  After what
    Hollywood did to Damnation Alley, Zelazny will never sell movie
    rights again].  This could even be a made-for-TV-epic...
        As for the cast, that takes some thought...it's been a
    while since I read the books, so I don't remember the minor
    characters too well.  ...but here goes...

Corwin . . . Mel Gibson
Random . . . Sting
Oberon . . . Marlon Brando (if you could get him) or Sean Connery?
Eric . . . . Malcolm McDowell
Dworkin  . . Burgess Merideth
                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 May 84  19:24 EST
From: JDALC012@CUNYVM
Subject: I'm the kid on the block.

     I saw some stuff about the next Star Trek movie flying around
last time.  The only things I have heard about it is that you might
see them pulling a 'lucas' and bringing spock back in a 'obi-wan' sort
of way.

                    Samwise
                    aka Sam
                    g.cunyvm=lc012

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 84 22:24:10-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

We all know the problems with V, but what bothers me so much is that
the rest of it is not bad, and approaches high quality in places.
I'm talking about things like the effects, editing, production
values and that sort of thing.  Even the writing is a good suspense
story.  No doubt done by highly trained, qualified cinematic
technicians.

What I don't get is why they never asked their engineers any
questions about the plot.  With all the money they spent, they could
have easily hired one educated consultant.  Anybody with any
knowledge of science would say that the idea of aliens coming here
to steal our water and eat us is really silly.  Water the most
precious substance around?  Give me a break!  People with
biotechnology like that needing to steel our bodies for food,
especially when they have to feed us?  Come on.  And lizards?  Sure.
(This one is the worst.  I am fully prepared to believe human
looking aliens with common ancesters to ours, but lizards in
perfectly molded body suits?

The point is that all these things have no reason behind them.  It
would make a far more intersting fascism story (which is the
producers avowed intention) if they were our cousins.  I am ready to
go for imperialist aliens out to enslave us, but take our water and
eat us?

If they changed these things, V would be a fairly decent SF story,
in fact one of the best ever made for television.  And all they had
to do was ask somebody.  How can so much money be spent and nobody
be asked?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 May 84 14:14:42 PDT
From: Scott Turner <srt@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: V the Final Battle

Have to agree with Will that the ending was too Deus Ex Machina.

Some other goofs:

In one scene, Tyler introduces the new explosive the rebels will be
using to destroy the pumping station, and cautions that it is not
stable below sixty degrees or over seventy-two (F).  In the next
scene, the male leader of the rebels (I forget his name) is shown
tucking the explosive into his vest pocket -- KaBlooey!

If the aliens and humans are close enough to each other
physiologically to interbreed (pretty hokey in itself) then a toxin
that kills one and not the other is pretty hard to accept.

But the biggest surprise this week was Wendy killing herself on St.
Elsewhere, but of course I won't mention that because it isn't SF.

                                                -- Scott

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #83
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 May 84 1341-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #83
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 12 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:
            Books - Stasheff & Sf and Sex & Hugo Awards,
            Films - 2010 (2 msgs) & Roll-your-own SF Film (2 msgs),
            Television - V: The Final Battle,
            Miscellaneous - Art vs Literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 20:17:39-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxj!gek @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Book Request

The books by Chris Stasheff are good enough I thought I'd reply to
the net.  Stasheff wrote The Warlock In Spite of Himself for a
contest; he missed the contest deadline, so he published it instead.
There is now a prequel, Escape Velocity, dealing with the Romantic
Emigres. It's cute. The Warlock Unlocked is great, all the charm of
tWiSoH but with all the rough edges smoothed.  Between the two is
King Kobold, which is a bomb. Even Stasheff admits it, 'cause when
it came up for re-release he insisted on a rewrite.  I'm glad he
did. I read King Kobold Revived yesterday, and it's now better than
EV, not as good as tWU. Her Majesty's Warlock, or some such title,
is mentioned in the inside cover of tWU, but I haven't seen it in
the shops. I wish I did; it promises to be a winner.  There IS one
other story, A Wizard In Bedlam. It is set once Magnus is grown, and
not on Gramarye.  It's good, but I'd rank it below EV.

So if you ignore KK in favor of KKR, everything by Stasheff rates at
least good.

glenn kapetansky
"If I only had a brain"
...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1984 17:40-EDT
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@NRL-AIC>
Subject: Blue Sky Fie

LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20 remarks that YOLANDA: THE GIRL FROM EROSPHERE is
more pornography than SF.  As a devotee of both genres, I have to
agree.  You have to expect sex if you pick up something published by
Grove Press--they made their start publishing Ulysses or Lady
Chatterly or something back when they were obscene.  Unfortunately,
there's a lot of skiffy porn these days, probably because there's a
lot of skiffy and porn in pop culture.

But in the tradition of Kilgore Trout, the Vonnegut character who
published masterpieces of SF in nudie mags, there are a few fairly
decent examples SF and pornography being emulsified with humor.
Unfortunately, you have to go to the used book shelves (in either of
two sorts of shops) or hit the hucksters' tables at a con for the
ones I know of, as they are all out of print.

My favorite example is Ray Kainen, who wrote for the Olympia Press
(another of ``those'' publishers, sadly now defunct).  His novel THE
COSMIC GASH follows Professor F. Rancid Gelding in his Raunchy
Stabber as drives down the Screw-way, where all motive power is
derived from sexual energy.  There is a cast of zillions, all
hilarious stereotypes: Rancid's wife Palomine and her horse Herman,
secretary Wee Kling, biker Hott Cock, dancer Shenta Vidus, guru
Shilly Brahmin, financier J.  Burnup Gettit and his wife Gotta,
valet Trudgen, Senator Homo Humnuts, author Norman Pitter-patter,
psychiatrist Sickman Fried and his patient Amanda Punchingjelly, and
the title character, a giant concave alien.

Kainen's A SEA OF THIGHS is a similar piece, set on a university
campus where a stereotypic cast of zillions comes together as the
sex researchers Roseystern and Gildedk*ntz have an ``incident''
with their nuclear-powered experimental apparatus.

The only other example of Kainen's work I have been able to find is
SATYR TREK.  This differs in that the c. of z. do not get together
for one huge orgy, but interact with the protagonist serially as he
gets tossed across time and space, sort of like a priapic Billy
Pilgrim.  I would have to rate this as the best SF of the lot,
though it's a little too much of a cliff-hanger for my taste in
pornography.

I suppose I should also mention THE SEX MAGICIANS, by Robert Anton
Wilson (co-author of the ILLUMINATUS trilogy).  A Mama Vibe, sort of
an orgone inversion, blankets Chicago and everyone goes crazy until
the Illuminati intervene.  A lot of the stereotype play like Kainen,
though the humor is a little less wacky.

Dan Hoey

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 84  10:52 EST
From: YBMCU@CUNYVM
Subject: Hugo Awards

Seeing Donn Seeley's comments about TWtBD is up for a Hugo award in
V9 #76 reminds me that all too often, people forget the rules for
Hugo awards.  He wants to know why it is up for "science fiction
awards".

According to the World Science Fiction Society Constitution (Article
II, Section 2 - Science Fiction Achievement Awards, Best Novel):

"A science fiction or fantasy story of forty thousand (40,000) words
or more appearing for the first time in the previous calendar
year..."

If a story is either science fiction or fantasy, it is eligible - it
need not be science fiction.

My personal feeling is that this makes things much easier than
getting into arguments over whether something is science fiction or
is fantasy.

(This was not to either recommend or not recommend TWtBD for a Hugo
- merely an attempt to clear up what the rules say.)

Ben Yalow
BITNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM
ARPA: G.CUNYVM=YBMCU@BERKELEY

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 10 May 1984, 15:50-PDT
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman at WHITE>
Reply-to: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #80

    Date: 3 May 84 18:34:16-PDT (Thu)
    From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: 2010 - Peter Hyams

    One thing for sure, the special effects are being done by the
    best in the business, Doug Trumbull's Entertainment Effects
    Group, under the tutelage of triple Oscar-winner Richard
    Edlund("Alien", "The Empire Strikes Back", "Return of the
    Jedi").

NO NO NO.  Richard Edlund isnt working for Doug Trumbull.  Trumbull
has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this film.  Edlund has
set up his company called Boss Film Group in the same warehouse
where Trumbull and EEG used to work but that is the only connection.
There is some overlap in the people who used to work for EEG and are
now working for Boss Films.  I know of at least one, Virgil Morano,
who was stills photographer on Bladerunner for EEG and is now
working on 2010.  Boss Films is also doing the effects for
Ghostbusters.

Four former EEG (Trumbull) employees did set up their own graphics
effects company and are doing the knob graphics (ie computer
displays on spaceships) for 2010.  Their company is called Video
Image Associates.

    Date: Tue, 8 May 84 18:53:42 PDT
    From: Douglas J. Trainor <trainor@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
    Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010

    [In regards to the unsigned message about 2010...]

    So you don't like Hyams.  Well I don't like people ripping apart
    directors and actors solely based on one film.  The news media
    suffers greatly from this.  So CAPRICORN ONE wasn't up to par,
    you can't condemn the guy forever.  Have you seen one of his
    more recent films, like OUTLAND?  You make it look like Clarke
    doesn't approve.  Clarke & Hyams have been in constant
    communication (via computer no less) since the beginning.

Right on.  Everyone in the film business (known in the trade as "the
biz") has worked on films that dont turn out so well.  Give the guy
a break.

Michael Wahrman
(mike@rand-unix, harpo!randvax!mike, ucbvax!randvax!mike)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 May 84 18:00:23 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Hyams and 2010

Hyams is not only writing the screenplay for 2010, he's also
directing it.  On past evidence, he's not anything special as a
director, though he is at least competent.  His past films include
"Capricorn One", "Outland", and "The Star Chamber".  His favorite
theme seems to be paranoia about what high level government
officials are up to.  It would be reasonable to assume that he'll
bend 2010 in that direction.  Once one counts 2010, he will probably
be the most prolific director of science fiction films still working
(well, big budget Hollywood ones, at least), leaping ahead of
Kubrick, Speilberg, and Nicholas Meyer.  (Meyer would still be tied,
if you consider "The Day After" as both a film and science fiction;
a lot of folks hope that at least the latter is true.  Speilberg is
also tied if you count "Raiders", which is really fantasy.)  He will
almost certainly not be considered the best.

I don't see any reason why Hyams shouldn't be dumped on for
"Capricorn One".  It's not as if he turned around and made a really
great science fiction film.  "Outland" isn't really anything
special, except for some of the effects.  "The Star Chamber", for
those who missed it and weren't listening in high school world
history classes, is not science fiction.  It's probably the best of
his films, but it isn't anything special, either.  The fact of the
matter is that Hyams hasn't shown Kubrick's kind of talent, and it
isn't reasonable to expect 2010 to bring it out in him.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 May 84  19:04 EST
From: JDALC012@CUNYVM
Subject: SF films of the future.

     I cast my vote for The Cronichles of Amber.  With much
animation, graphics, and scene changes I think it could make one of
the most visually stimulating SF films.  For the various roles I
would think Shakespearian actors, perhaps of the relatively unknown
type, would be best.  With all the under-currents and family
rivalries it would make for a movie(s) with not just effect but
depth too.
     Second in line would be the Elric series, for some similar
reasons.
               I could go on forever, but time will not permit.
                    Samwise.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 May 84 17:13:12 PDT
From: Willard Korfhage <korfhage@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Roll-your-own SF Film

  I (and some other people I know) would like to see Walter Miller's
"A Canticle for Lebowitz". I don't know who I would ask to direct or
who I would cast (I never remember everybody's name), but
encompassing as it does the rebirth and destruction of civilization,
it could be quite a film (more than mind candy).
                                Willard Korfhage
                                korfhage@ucla-ats

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 84 13:52:28-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

        "V" is a very sore subject with me. I looked forward to the
showing of the first "V" TV-movie, even though it was a network
production. Not expecting much, but hoping.
        The very first episode was excellent. The secret of the
aliens and their nasty intent was not yet revealed, and I was
hooked.
        And then I saw the second half (of the first "V", remember -
we're not talking about the new one here). Friends, if someone had
asked me to make up the stupidest, most impossible 'explanation' for
the mysteries, I could not have topped the sheer incredible idiocy
of what they came up with. I was (am) more than disappointed, I was
(am) genuinely angry about "V", and have avoided the sequel in
righteous indignation.
        I, too, have wondered how such stupefying nonsense makes it
to the air waves. It's hard to believe that anyone could be so
completely ignorant of the laws of nature, but we're talking TV
producers here, and they are a breed apart, thank God. Not only do
many of them think that 'physics' is what you take for constipation,
they also frequently have complete contempt for science fiction, and
for the audience which science fiction attracts. Frankly, when I see
the high ratings which "V" enjoyed, I start wondering if they're
right.
        By the way, I think there is more wrong with "V" than the
science, or the illogical plot. When I saw our heroes starting out
to organize the resistance movement, I nearly fell out of my chair
from laughter. Even a poorly-run tyranny would have had those
comic-opera revolutionaries up against the wall in a week.
        Yes the production values were good. Big deal. Even "The
Starlost" (remember *that* turkey?) had some nice mattes and models.
I'd still rather watch a John Davidson telethon than see any more of
"V".
                                           Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:              {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 8 May 84 13:44:47 EDT
Subject: Bridge over troubled writers

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

Anytime I see the words *art* and *literature* on the same line,
with the ASCII reverence marks around them, I start counting the
family silverware.

About a hundred years ago, physics got sufficiently complicated so
that nonspecialists had a hard time following it.  Human culture
split in two at that point.  Science took one fork; *art* and
*literature* took another.  Read C.P. Snow for the full story; Two
Cultures may well be the most important work of this century.

While grubbing for my B.A. in English, I was forced to wade through
volumes of otherwise sensible men wailing over the death of God,
over the lack of meaning in the universe, and lord only knows what
else.  When my instructor earnestly stated that the central question
confronting modern man is "Why not commit suicide?" (this after two
volumes of Camus) I suggested, "Some of us are interested in what
tomorrow's going to look like."  It all came clear to me then:
Twentieth century literature doesn't believe in tomorrow.  Apart
from the nuclear threat (which wasn't there when Camus and his
buddies were busy despairing) they just don't feel like considering
the possibility that tomorrow might in fact be better.

The reason for that is that they KNOW, on some subconscious level,
that they don't have the experience to understand the forces that
have begun shaping tomorrow.  Mainstream literature has hit a dead
end.  The people who write it can no longer, um, grok the wholeness
of human experience because they failed Physics for Poets and think
math is for nerds.

*Art* and *literature*, which for thousands of years were accurate
reflections of human culture, are no longer complete.  Science never
was complete, but it never claimed to be.

Snow didn't have any answers, and his biases leaned toward letting
scientists set the pace for the advancement of human culture.  That,
I'll tell you, won't work either.

As science fiction has matured these past forty years, it has
broadened to include a host of things Uncle Hugo would have barfed
at.  And yet is hasn't forgotten that science and technology are the
root shapers of any future we may yet have.  The best of us are
producing works of fiction which are broader in their understanding
of the current state of humanity than all but the very best of
mainstream literature.  In another forty years mainstream will have
fallen into its own navel and disappeared, and I won't miss it.  By
then SF will have broadened to become all the literature we need.
It will have healed the rift between Snow's Two Cultures--//if it
doesn't forget where it came from.//

So when I hear the chappie complaining about discussing film
technology and FTL and such when we should be discussing *art* and
*literature* I hearken back to my undergrad days...might I suggest
that he retire to a quiet corner and ask himself "Why not commit
suicide?"--and by the way, here's a .44 to take along in case you
reach the correct conclusion...

A toast to human nature, FTL, joy, sorrow, and Schroedinger's Cat--
  Let us achieve our quest to knit the Two Cultures back into one.

--Jeff Duntemann    duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #84
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 84 1243-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #84
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:
          Administrivia - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net,
          Books - Libertarian SF,
          Films - 2010 & 2001 & Capricorn 1,
          Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Planetary Destruction (3 msgs) &
                  How to Get Rich with a Time Machine (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 14:16:56 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

        Beginning sometime in the next week in the very pages of
this digest I will be re-presenting the one, the only, the original
episodes of HITCH HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE NET.  I now have the entire
13 episodes plus the two episodes of THE RESTAURANT AT THE END OF
THE NET.  One episode will appear in each digest at the very end of
the digest.
        I would like to thank all those out there who sent me the
episodes from wherever they were buried.  And of course a thanks to
the author(s) of this opus whomever he/she/it might be.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 May 84 12:10:52-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: libertarian sf

Well, the books I've read by (F?) Paul Wilson have libertarian
themes (Enemy of the State, and Healer, the first more than the
second).

I see you must like pure libertarian propaganda if you liked the
books by Schulman and Smith. I agree they're fun to read, but the
books by Smith (sequels to the Probability Broach are two, but I
can't remember their names) read more like issues of "handguns of
the world" than science fiction novels.

Except for the fact that I am basically libertarian at heart, I
would consider the books you mentioned to be political propaganda of
the basest and most egregious sort, similar to the stuff put out by
the Nazis in the '30s to inspire their youth movements. Since the
libertarian party in the US is really something of a joke, and since
they mostly seem to be fairly decent fellows I would not ascribe
evil intent to such novels, especially as I agree with the basic
ideas, but still it seems a little crude to attempt to spread the
word in such form.

The novels by Wilson seem to be more libertarian-oriented science
fiction rather than propaganda with science fiction trappings.  Many
other sf writers seem to be basically libertarian, viz.  Heinlein,
Dickson, Anderson, etc. but they generally do not have their
characters ranting on for pages on the advantages of anarchy and why
even schoolchildren should carry fusion pistols.

Oh, recently a novel was published that takes place in a mythical
African country of the future which is basically libertarian in a
world of corporate states, and it is quite good despite the
propaganda, but for the life of me I can't remember the author or
title--perhaps someone else on the net knows, as I would like to
read more by the author.

The reason ths reply is going out to the net instead of in a
personal reply is that I am interested in other people's positions
on fiction as a vehicle for propaganda--do you think its ethically
and/or literarily ok? It seems to me that neither of these is the
case, but you already know this from the above text.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 84 16:32:14-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!dp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 2010 - Peter Hyams

Douglas Rain was the voice of HAL 9000, of course!

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 16:05:12-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Saturn not pretty enuf for Kubrik

The irony of 2001, a generally beautiful film, is that its
depictions of Jupiter and its moons pale to dullness next to the
real thing, as beamed back by the Voyagers and other probes.  Swirls
and eddies on Jupiter, furrows on ?, ice cracks all over Europa, Io's
hell -- yessir, truth can really beat hell out of fiction.  If
anyone had dreamed up something like that for Kubrik, he might have
refused it, saying "that's too fantastic...  there's enuf LDS trip
stuff at the end.  People would laugh at those planets."

Well, I just read 2010, and the special effects to do it anything
like justice had BETTER BE GOOD!  Hope they rip off all they need
from NASA.  No more plaster Jupiters
...mike k

------------------------------

Subject: "Capricorn 1"
Date: Fri, 11 May 84 09:39:36 EDT
From: Nathaniel Mishkin <Mishkin@YALE.ARPA>

Now I know for sure I must have been the only person who liked
"Capricorn 1".  Sure the special effects were marginal, but what
about the chase scene(s) at the end with the helicopter chasing the
bi-plane and then smashing in the side of a cliff?  Great stuff.

I especially liked the ending where the "dead" astronaut arrives at
his own memorial service.  Nicely understated -- just a slow motion
to the end with the TV cameras turning around to show the guy
running up -- i.e. we were spared the "now what happens after the
jig is up" scene.

        Marching to a different drummer?

                -- Nat

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 16:29:49-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!ks @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water]

     I haven't seen more than 2 minutes of "V"; the discussion on
the net says that "they" are here to steal our water.  This really
does seem to be ludicrous to me; the satellites of the outer planets
(Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus) are made up largely of ice.  Any
civilization needing water could simply melt Callisto (Jupiter's
outermost Galilean moon) and have thousands of times the water
available in the Earth's oceans.  If this is really the premise for
"V", then I'm glad I missed it.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 14:29:38-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

concerning the sky-fie space opera V, Brad asks, "How can so much
money be spent and nobody be asked?" how to write a good SF story?
Easy: It was done in Hollywood!  I'm sure that the people involved
in V think that sci-fi starts and ends in hollywood, that all the
BEM movies ever made are typical of the genre, that the only sf
literature ever produced are novelizations of old movies. In other
words, they don't know about Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Campbell, and
all the others on the honor roll, they've never heard of Astounding
or F&SF, and they likely think that they're the first ones to ever
come up with the "Food of the Gods" concept.
   What can you expect from the industry that gave us "The Eye
Creatures"?
   They're right, you know: sci-fi DID start in hollywood, and will
hopefully end there. Forry Ackerman lives out in that neck of the
woods, I beleive, and he invented the term "sci-fi" (taken from
"hi-fi") to label the type of stuff coming out in movies at the
time: pseudo- science-fiction done by amateurs masquerading as film
producers, who knew nothing of the vast body of work that they were
ignoring.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 1984 0927-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "V" vs "V the final battle"

        If anyone remembers the end of "V" Juliet has just sent a
message for help out to the 'enemies' of the Visitors. (The
resistance found out about these enemies from Martin). If as is
supposed in "The Final Battle" the "Doomsday device" has been used
before one must wonder how many planets there are out there that the
Visitors have contacted and either enslaved, destroyed or been
chased out of? Also, why were world wide communications restored
within seconds of the 'red dust' falling out of balloons? On the
lighter side there still are possibly millions of humans and
billions of gallons of water on there way back to the Vistors planet
(in the book the other mother ships left Earth orbit before the
doomsday device was started).  Since all these people need to be
returned to Earth there is going to have to be a sequel if the
ratings were high enough to warrant it.

                        Warren Sander @ DEC-MARLBORO

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 84 22:58:41-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

There's a story called ``Proxima Centauri'' by Murray Leinster that
has huge, self contained star ships, and invading, ravenous,
people-eating aliens.  It is at least representative of that sort of
thing, and can be found in The Road to Science Fiction #2, edited by
James Gunn.  The story was originally published in 1935, from which
we can infer that popular sf on television has advanced to the state
of pulp sf of the 30s.  That's at least as good as the movies, I
suppose, seeing as the Star Wars saga is equivalent to E.E. "Doc"
Smith space opera of the same vintage.  (2001 and The Lathe of
Heaven are not representative, and neither had the same kind of
popularity.)

But, then, Leinster was more creative even back then (his aliens
were carnivorous plants), knew something about science (he used
relativity correctly), and went on to better things (``First
Contact,'' written in 1945, is still the classic story of its kind).
I doubt we can expect the same of the perpetrators of V.

What really annoyed me was the blatant lift of the beginning of
``Space Nazis'' from Childhood's End.  In service of the drivel that
followed.  I hope Arthur C. Clark sues them for plagiarism, not to
mention fraud.

-- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas,
Austin, Texas 78712 USA jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP,
{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  9 May 1984 05:50:48-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: Planetary destruction plans

Re: Our continuing plan to blow up the Earth...

>      The center of a planet is likely to contain a high
> concentration of uranium and thorium.  They are heavy and sink to
> the middle of planets with fluid cores.  Now Star Wars was set "A
> long, long time ago".  U-235 has a shorter half-life than U-238,
> thus the concentration was higher earlier in the life of your
> average planet.  Far enough back, it would have been a fissionable
> mix.

>                                                    Dani Eder
>                                                    ssc-vax!eder

Your assumptions are based on faulty logic.  The intro to SW says,
"Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away."  Now it is only reasonable to
assume that a galaxy in which there is a highly advanced technology
sufficient to support a galaxy-wide empire is a far older galaxy
than our own.  This assumption is borne out by the existence of
stars of varying ages in our galaxy - Sol is only about 4 to 6 aeons
old, but there are stars old enough to have burnt most of their
fusionables and been reduced to white dwarfs or neutron stars.  The
universe is believed to be 12 to 16 aeons old - in that time, a
galaxy that coalesced very early from the primordial cosmic eggwhite
would have produced pretty much the same mixture of stars as exists
here, but much earlier.  Thus, the U235/U238 concentration in any
given planet is a variable - that of Alderaan, for example, would
likely be decayed even further than that of Terra, whereas that of
Endor might be expected to be richer, perhaps even containing
plutonium and other trans-uranics.

Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder
DEC, Littleton, Mass.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 9 May 84 14:54:47-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Squii..sh

How to destroy a planet cheaply:

Get in your time machine, go back 10000 years, and deposit a one-oz
gold coin at 5% compound interest.

When you return to the present, the accumulated pile of gold coins
will form a black hole of approx 10**170 metric tons.  Squish!

PS: don't use the Atlantis Loan & Savings - we tried that, but
    after 1000 years the continent couldn't take the weight of
    gold.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 15:33:02-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Blowing up Earth, and Jupiter methods

It's reassuring to know billionnnzzzz of tonnnzzzz of antimatter
would be needed to blow a planet apart, tho blowing up its Sun would
serve the purpose just as well for present and future life on the
planet.  I understood differently the danger in "The Gods
Themselves" (one the BEST SF novels I've ever read); it was that the
weakening of the nuclear force wouyld spread to the Sun, which would
then nova prematurely.  In fact, the triple-sexed people in the
other universe were already suffering from a dimming of their sun,
since in their universe the nuclear force was getting stronger,
making fusion more difficult.

        New topic: How to blow up Jupiter.  Years ago, I figured
that if a sufficiently crushproof H-bomb could be parachuted down to
where Jupiter consists of metallic hydrogen, and detonated, a chain
reaction could easily be started that should blow most of the planet
away.  Needless to say, I don't recommend it this close to
Earth.

...mike k
PS: not to be confused with making a permanent star out of Jupiter--
"their failures were the wonder of astronomers on a thousand
planets".

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 84 20:12:57-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!dartvax!richard @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine

Problems with your second point.  It's not who wins, but who dies.
If Patton had been given his fuel, then more german's would have
died.  All of whom have affected our present.  Not only that, if the
war had ended sooner, perhaps the Allies would have made it to
Berlin first.

Time travel is confusing, as every voyage back in time, creates
another alternate reality, another alternate universe.  Which one
you return to when you go back to your time, no one can say...

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 21:14:43 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: How to make money with a time machine

All of you guys are missing the central concept here: namely the
time value of money.  This is most commonly evidenced by the
interest rate.  Here's one way to take advantage of it:

First, we want to operate over the period 1830-1890 or so (when US
banks were more or less deregulated).  Take $1000 or so (change it
to gold first) and go back to 1831.  Put it in a handy bank.
Assuming you can get 5% interest (more on that later), when you take
it out in 1890 you'll have $17,789.70.  Take that out, go back to
'31 again, put it in, hop to '90, and withdraw $316,473.45.  Take
that back to 1830 and found the bank.  Because you now (!) own it,
you can easily pay yourself the 5%.  Use the time machine to skim
the period and avoid any major bad investments, and you should be
able to get a 5% return without causing any waves.  When you close
down in 1890 (just before the feds close in) you walk away with
$5,911,466.30.  A tiny bank, nobody will notice it closing.  If
you're greedy, run it through again, but your closing down a major
bank for no apparent reason will attract notice.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 18:11:09-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: $1 in the bank

"$100 placed at 7% interest compounded quarterly for 200 years will
increase to over $100,000,000 - by which time it will be worth
nothing."
                                                -Lazarus Long
                Lyle McElhaney
                (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #85
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 84 1310-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #85
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:
          Books - Bradbury & Calvino & Eco & Fairbaines &
                  Kurland & Stasheff (2 msgs) & Vinge,
          Films - Supergirl & Roll-Your-Own Films (2 msgs),
          Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 84 10:02:52 EDT
From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) <wmartin@BRL-VGR.ARPA>
Subject: "Bradbury 13" has improved

I had previously posted a very critical initial review of the
"Bradbury 13" NPR radio series. I am surprised and most pleased to
say that it has gotten MUCH better. The last two episodes I heard,
"Kaleidoscope" and "Dark They Were, and Golden-Eyed", were far
superior to the preceeding ones in terms of the suitability of the
stories for radio adaptations and the listener's enjoyment of the
programs.  Since NPR stations are carrying these programs in a
staggered manner, you may well be able to hear these episodes
locally. I recommend that you do so, if possible.

If the producers had aired these stories as the first ones in the
series, it would have been a much better introduction; even if the
same poorer episodes, which were aired as the first ones, had been
broadcast later in the series, their failings would have had much
less effect, as the audience would have known how good the series
could be, and could dismiss these lower-quality programs as
abberations or low points, when compared with the superior quality
of these good programs.

I now look forward to the later episodes.

Will

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 12 May 1984 13:29:57-PDT
From: bazemore%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Barbara )
Subject: Italo Calvino

Samwise requested more Italo Calvino titles, so I rummaged around
and found one.

_Cosmicomics_ - 12 short stories which follow an evolutionary theme,
copyright 1965, English translation 1968.  It is pretty strange,
full of non-sequiturs.  Something to read when you're tired of
main-stream SF.
                                Barbara Bazemore
                                Digital Equip. Corp, Nashua, NH
                                decwrl!rhea!babel!bazemore

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 11 May 1984 12:09:39-PDT
From: minow%rex.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Book recommendation -- The Name of the Rose

Strictly speaking it's not SF, but I think many SF-LOVERS will enjoy
reading Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" -- a very literate
detective story set in the middle ages.  If you know Latin and
medieval Catholicism, you'll understand and enjoy more, but it's a
great story even for us infidels.

Martin Minow
Fri 11-May-1984 15:06 Maynard Time.  Martin Minow
MLO3-3/U8, DTN 223-9922

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 14:39:18-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxg!burton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SUNBURST; SF heroines

How about Benefits, by Zoe Fairbaines.  Fairly recent, definitely SF
(speculative fiction).
                        Doug Burton
                        ATT-CP Indianapolis
                        inuxg!burton

< I tried to mail this, but we have trouble returning mail to
Arpa sites >

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 17:31:44 EDT
From: Liz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: kurland

Kurland also wrote The Unicorn Girl (no it is not a heroic
fantasy...it is a very funny alternate universe book) and a book
whose name escapes me right now about alternate universes and Aaron
Burr.  I really enjoyed both of them.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 0:19:55-EDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.cca @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Book Request (Christopher Stasheff)

I believe the sequence is:

        ???? - a prequel, forget the name...
        "The Warlock in Spite of Himself"
        "The Warlock Unlocked"
        "King Kobold"

The prequel (which I have cleverly forgotten the name of) is the
latest, but has been out for several months at least.  Just look
around.

Charlie Allen

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 18:42:44-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Book Request [Warlock series by Christopher Stasheff]

Yes, these are great.  There is one more in the series, which has
just been reissued after a complete revision by the author.  The
title is ``King Kobold Revived'', although the ``Revived'' doesn't
seem to make any sense (probably should have been ``Revised'').

Go read it.  If you haven't read {\it The Warlock in Spite of
Himself}, go read that first.

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 84 12:32:40 EDT
From: Paul Milazzo <milazzo@cmu-cs-g.ARPA>
Subject: Re: True Names
Cc: James Jones <convex!ctvax!uokvax!emjej@Rice.ARPA>

> Another of [Vinge's] *Analog* shorts, sometime in 1972 I think,
> concerned a sentient colonizing ship with some flavor of humans
> [...] aboard.  - James Jones

I believe you're thinking of "Long Shot".  The humans were gametes
on a ship fleeing Sol gone nova.  The plot concerns the fact that
the ship forgets its programming on the way to Alpha Centauri (I
think) because the trip took ~10**5 years, and the data on the
magnetic tapes evaporated.  My copy is 1500 miles from here, so I'm
not sure of the details.
                                Paul G. Milazzo <Milazzo@Rice.ARPA>
                                (temporarily hiding at CMU)
                                Dept. of Computer Science
                                Rice University, Houston, TX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:38:34 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: film news

"Supergirl" has been delayed in release until Christmas.  Wolfgang
Petersen (directed "Das Boot" and the upcoming "The Neverending
Story") has replaced the previous director, whose name escapes me
but was not familiar, on a science fiction film called "Enemy Mine".
I've never heard of it before.  It's currently shooting in Iceland,
and it's budget is in the $15-$20 million range, and rising.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 11 May 1984 13:26:25-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Roll-your-own

Roll your own, eh?  Okay, I vote for _The Mote in God's Eye_ as a
great possibility.  It has space war sequences; high-tech from an
alien culture; the aliens themselves, who could not be faked with
people in alien suits; a good possibility for a romantic subplot; a
grand scale, and (to me the most important point) a real message.
The SPFX people could have a field day with it.  I'd think that
Lucasfilm would build the best miniatures.

Only problem I see is its length - it's a monumentally long book,
and admittedly slow in spots; unfortunately, some of those slow
spots carry information that is critical to plot development.

Dick Binder
decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:56:32 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: roll your own sf films

I've always thought this a sort of fun way to waste time, so I guess
I'll join in.  "The Stars My Destination" always seemed to me to be
a perfect source for a film, and Robert DeNiro a good choice for the
male lead.  I don't remember Margaret Avery, so I can't comment on
her.  Spielberg, though, really isn't the right director for this
kind of film.  Spielberg has some very strong points as a director.
He is a master of action sequences, and does well with suspense.  He
has a talent for sentimentality, as well.  He has not, however,
shown any aptitude for morally complex characterizations or the
darker sides of human emotions.  Since this is the whole point of
the book, a different director might be a better choice.

The perfect director for this project, in my opinion, Werner Herzog.
He is a German director who specializes in films about men with
tremendous, usually insane obsessions.  "Aguirre: The Wrath of God"
concerns a Conquistador who is so determined to find a treasure city
in the South American jungles that he winds up killing all of his
men.  We last see him floating down a river on a raft with only a
bunch of monkeys for companions, madly certain that he will succeed.
Another Herzog film, "Fitzcarraldo", is probably the most impressive
film ever made about obsession.  In this film, a man literally drags
a steamship over a mountain in the middle of the Amazon, surrounded
by hostile natives.  Now that's obsession.

A far more appropriate film for Spielberg would be "Little Fuzzy",
from H. Beam Piper's novel.  This is precisely the kind of material
that Spielberg excells at, and takes as its source a fine novel, as
well.  I have no good ideas about casting it, though.

Another good film for Speilberg would be Burrough's "A Princess of
Mars".  Non-stop action in a romantic setting.  If Speilberg isn't
available for it, George Miller should do well in his place.  For
those who forget, Miller directed "The Road Warrior" and the only
worthwhile episode of "The Twilight Zone: The Motion Picture".  (I
wonder how many people are under the mistaken impression that
Spielberg directed that last episode?)  Kathleen Turner, who starred
in "Body Heat" and "Romancing the Stone", would be fine as Dejah
Thoris, but John Carter is hard to cast.  No, Harrison Ford is not
even remotely suitable.  Errol Flynn or Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. in
their prime are more what's required, and their sort is rare
nowadays.  Technology has finally caught up to the special effects
requirements, but now there are no great swashbucklers to play the
lead.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:15 PDT
From: <Chucko%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: V -- The Final Blunder

What gets me about "V" is that they were stealing water from
Southern California, an area that steals water from Northern
California!

Other than that, it seemed to be good escapist fare, at least to
this non-critical viewer.  (I figure if it doesn't make me turn away
in the first 5 minutes, it's better than at least 80% of commercial
TV.)

 -- Chucko
    Chucko%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 11 May 1984, 16:48-PDT
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman at WHITE>
Reply-to: mike at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Why TV Writers Dont Care About Technical Accuracy

    From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
    Subject: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

    What I don't get is why they never asked their engineers any
    questions about the plot.  With all the money they spent, they
    could have easily hired one educated consultant.  Anybody with
    any knowledge of science would say that the idea of aliens
    coming here to steal our water and eat us is really silly.

I think I can answer this question from the times I have worked with
people who write for television.  What follows is obviously a
generalization but I believe it explains what one sees on the tube.

TV writers (producers and directors) have a model of the viewer that
watches their work.  They believe that the viewer (1) doesn't care
about accuracy, (2) doesn't care about consistancy, (3) is basically
very stupid and (4) needs to have everything explained many times
and (5) needs a lot of action or suspense on a regular basis
especially right before a commercial or the channel will be
switched.

The last time I discussed accuracy with a writer who was working on
a pilot she told me "Dont waste my time."

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 17:47:19-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Space Nazis; Magic in SF

I enjoyed watching "V" (with my educated brain set to Star-Wars
mode, where it ignores all the scientific impossibilities), until
the final scene where hybrid child Elizardbeth pulls her magical
powers on the Bomb controls.  I had the same problem with "The
Secret of NIMH" -- namely, I can't stand it when a "rational" SF
story mixes in PURE MAGIC (without even calling it "sufficiently
advanced technology").  Actually, I thought ET's magic was beautiful
(brain in kid mode?), but V's ending looked like "oh my gawd, only 2
minutes in the 4th quarter" by the screenwriters.  mike k

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 7:10:16-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: drying planets...

>>  1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally
>>  "drying" up, for any number of reasons....

Okay, what are some of those reasons?  Did everyone decide to drink
at the same time?  (Or is it flush?)

Seriously, you can't get rid of water that easily.  Contaminate it,
yes.  But destroy it, no.  (unless you have *very* inefficient
fusion plants :-)).

And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does
disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of the
neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted from any
nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to hauling megamass
of water over interstellar distances.

No -- Drying planets with indigenous life belong in the same class
of stories as those with alpha Centari visible from New York.
Perhaps 1 out of 10,000 has a valid explanation, but certainly none
generated in Hollywood falls into that category.

ave discordia                           going bump in the night ...
bruce giles
decvax!ucf-cs!giles                     university of central florida
giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay                 orlando, florida 32816

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 23:52:56-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: drying planets...

>>  1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally
>>  "drying" up, for any number of reasons....

> Okay, what are some of those reasons?  Did everyone decide to
> drink at the same time?  (Or is it flush?)

Planet-wide drought, caused by imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen
mixture of the planet's atmosphere.

The same, caused by the planet moving out of orbit (closer to its
sun).

The same, caused by contamination of the planet's atmosphere
(perhaps natural, perhaps not).

> And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does
> disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of
> the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted from
> any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to hauling
> megamass of water over interstellar distances.

That is assuming those type of planets exist in their solar system.
If they don't, they must come to other planets.  And if they are
going to do that, they might as well get water in its natural form
(even if they have to steal it) rather than go to Jupiter and do it
the hard way.
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #86
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 May 84 1342-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #86
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:
      Films - Leiber the Actor & 70MM Films & 2010 (3 msgs) &
              Roll-Your-Own Films (4 msgs) Star Trek (2 msgs) & 
              Star Wars,
      Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs),
      Miscellaneous - W&W Installment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 11:57:00-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re: Fritz Leiber -- the Actor??

Not to mention several familiar names in the credits for Flesh
Gordon.  I remember seeing Tom Reamy under Props, f'r instance.

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 21:13:45-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!pournell @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza

It's not strictly true that "35mm neg ---> 70mm release == 35mm neg
---> 35mm release".  In addition to the 4 or 5 extra sound tracks on
the film, the extra print area helps decrease The Creeping Grainies.
Also, 70mm projectionists tend to take better care of their charges
then the jackfools who run 35mm prints on Christies.  Also, magnetic
sound is much better than the horrible optical sound on most 35mm.

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 17:52:48-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Nit picking on 2010 (slight SPOILER)

I hate to bug a novel as good as 2010, but -- when Dave Bowman
re-enters HAL the second time and tells HAL to re-orient the antenna
and send the last message to Earth -- I thought that the antenna and
its notorious AE-35 box had been removed and junked when the Russian
ship was strapped on at the antenna mount.  Hard to believe the dish
would survive the mounting, the forces, the explosive charges at
separation, and the Russians" rocket blast.  Yeah, Clark didn't say
they removed it, just seems kinda necessary.  Watch and see how the
movie screws this one up... mike k

"...except Europa.  That belongs to the V-Lizards."

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 9:38:07-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyu
From: xn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 2010 - Peter Hyams

Frankly, I prefer "2009: Jupiter & Beyond" directed by Woody Tobias,
Jr.  as shown on SCTV (Cinemax) last night.

Simon & Garfunkel in space combined with Abbott & Costello Go To
Mars, Spock's Brain, the Wizard of Oz, and Duck Soup (imagine the
famous "mirror" scene from Duck Soup done with Art Garfunkel and a
black monolith with legs wearing a read frizzy wig; by the way
[SPOILER] the black monolith drops on the Evil Queen killing her)

Try and beat THAT, Peter Hyams!!!

Now I've lost my train of thought. I'll have to catch the bus of
thought.
                        Rich Rosen    pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 12 May 1984 13:12:33-PDT
From: karger%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Paul A. Karger -- DTN 229-6087)
Subject: Douglas Rain and 2010

Douglas Rain was the voice of HAL in 2001.

By the way, Rain is a fine Shakespearian actor and has been a
frequent star at the Stratford Shakespearean Festival in Stratford,
Ontario, Canada.  I remember him nearly 20 years ago as Prince Hal
in Henry IV and as the King in Henry V.

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 1984  13:54 EDT (Sat)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: roll-your-own-SF

        How about the "Doc" Smith's Lensman and Skylark series?
They've certainly got as much action as ever Star Wars did, with
plenty of opportunity for visual effects: imagine the battle between
the Earth forces and the Pirates from Triplanetary.  And Lensman at
least even has a bit more plot.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 May 84 03:13 EDT
From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Amber, The Movie

On the basis of the dogs vs.  Mercedes-Benz chase in the beginning
of Nine Princes in Amber, I would give Random to Mel Gibson (Sting
could play Julian).  Also, I can't see Malcolm McDowell, who usually
plays characters possessed of either childlike innocence (Time After
Time) or adolescent psychopathy (Clockwork Orange, Caligula, etc.)
playing Eric, who is basically noble, and only appears evil because
Corwin doesn't like being blinded (Eric foolishly assumed it beat
being dead.)

Most of the major characters can be easily cast, though.  One big
problem shows up with Benedict: how do you find someone who looks
like Ichabod Crane, and at the same time looks like a military
genius greater than Napoleon, Patton, and Von Klausewitz combined?

--Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sun 13 May 84 16:24:45-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Amber Films

I concur with the previous few messages; the Amber Series would make
an incredibly good movie or series of movies -- but only if **I**
were the director! I would hate to see someone else, even if they
were competent, do the movies, because it would ruin my personal
version of the Amber universe.

While I'm on the subject, does anyone know anything about the three
new Amber novels Zelazny is contracted for? That is, possible
release dates, general subject matter, etc.

WARNING: If anyone spoils the plot for me, I may get violent....

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 1984 07:54:31-EDT
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc
Subject: book--> movie wish

The New Sun Series!  At Boskone, Gene Wolfe was asked if he'd been
approached for movie rights, and he said no, but he'd be happy to
negotiate them if anyone were interested.  He cast Mia Farrow as
Dorcas, and I agree.  How about these others:

Severian - Jack Lord (maybe someone else for young Severian, like
Matt Dillon?)
Agia  - Faye Dunaway
Jolenta - Raquel Welsh (apologies to her as an actress, but she does
have a luscious bod)
Jonas - John Hurt
Master Paelemon - The guy who was the general in Star Wars that made
Princess Leia watch her planet blow up
Master Guerloes - Orson Welles
Thecla - The woman who played Athena on Battlestar Galactica (Marin
something?)

and for the Autarch - Gene Wolfe himself.

Probably Spielberg to direct, with Wolfe's consultation, of course.

e

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 6:49:03-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die...

In article <433@sri-arpa.UUCP> Ed Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA writes:

>I don't think that the sensors couldn't lock onto the Reliant to
>beam Genesis aboard (V9, #75) is quite the right explanantion.
>Having just seen ST-II on cable last night (for the umpteenth
>time), the sensors were indeed working, and trained onto the
>Reliant (for Spock says that he is "picking up an unusual energy
>wave from the Reliant" - the Genesis Wave). If the sensors were
>working, it should have been very easy to lock onto Genesis to stop
>it from detonating.  Another possible explanation might be that the
>energy wave might have been lethal to be around (there were lots of
>gases coming from Genesis when it was building up), making it
>somewhat difficult to be in the Transporter Room with it at the
>same time.

It is much easier to detect that something is there than to
determine exactly where it is.  If the sensors were so scrambled
during the battle that the Enterprise could not see the Reliant to
fire at it, why should they suddenly become clear after the battle?

Jon Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 10:15:31-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!mhuxt!js2j @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die...

   Spock really did have to die.  Even if sensors could lock onto
the Genesis machine and beam it aboard the Enterprise, what could be
done with it then?  At most, they could beam it a few hundred
(thousand?) miles away.  I've never seen transporters used at ranges
much farther than that.  The genesis wave, in order to scrape up
enough dust from the cloud they were in to create a planet and a sun
for it would have had to extend for a range of at least several
light hours, probably more.  Thus, the ONLY way for anyone on the
Enterprise to survive was to warp out of there.

                        Jeff Sonntag

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 13:41:44-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon.

   About the Death Star weapon...
   I don't know if I am thinking of the same Niven weapon or not,
but in one of his Known Space stories ("World of Ptavvs"), the
Slaver uses a weapon which neutralized the charges on the electrons
in the atoms of whatever matter it touched.  The result was that the
atoms blew themselves apart by electromagnetic repulsion, leaving a
cloud of subatomic dust.  (It's really gruesome when he uses it on
living flesh.)
   Anyone care to speculate on the plausibility of this weapon?  It
seems like it should work.  My only question was -- how about the
strong nuclear force in the atom?  I thought that this force was
much stronger than the electromagnetic force at distances on the
order of an nuclear radius.
                            Mark Vita
                            Dartmouth College
                            {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 84 20:30:45-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!randy
From: @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis - (nf)

What bothers me more that all of the blatant violations of physics
and all that is what the producers have done to the biological
sciences.

Tell me if you will, what the chances could be of two races,
evolving on different worlds, being able to cross fertilize??!! I'll
probably watch the final part tonight for a good laugh!

                Randall S. Becker
Usenet:{dalcs,dciem,garfield,musocs,qucis,sask,titan,
       trigraph,ubc-vision,utzoo,watmath,allegra,cornell,
       decvax,decwrl,ihnp4,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!randy
CSNET:  randy@Toronto
ARPA:   randy%Toronto@CSNet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 1:02:44-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

>What I don't get is why they never asked their engineers any
>questions about the plot.  With all the money they spent, they
>could have easily hired one educated consultant.  Anybody with any
>knowledge of science would say that the idea of aliens coming here
>to steal our water and eat us is really silly.  Water the most
>precious substance around?  Give me a break!  People with
>biotechnology like that needing to steel our bodies for food,
>especially when they have to feed us?  Come on.  And lizards?
>Sure.  (This one is the worst.  I am fully prepared to believe
>human looking aliens with common ancesters to ours, but lizards in
>perfectly molded body suits?

I do not think it is silly.  I didn't see the first episodes of V
last year, so I don't know the background of their civilization or
why they came to Earth in the first place.  But consider:

1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally
"drying" up, for any number of reasons.  Since water is scarce, all
primitive forms of life (they ate mice, for example) die out
eventually, leaving the beings.  They have an advanced technology
enough to duplicate the epidermi of other species.  Also, they are a
warlike, fascist state, who feel no shame in taking from other
worlds.

2. Earth is 70% water, and almost all life on Earth is mostly
comprised of water.  (we are, for example, as most primates I
imagine would be, most mammals in general I suppose).  These beings
could certainly use us for food, assuming there are enough of us
around.  It wasn't as if they were going anywhere -- the world's
population of humans and other life could keep their numbers alive
for quite a few years.  When they finally exhaust the supply of life
on Earth, they can just move off to another planet.

Water is a more precious substance than we Earthlings care to think
of it as.  Think about worldwide drought for a long period of time
(one year, let's say) and the effects of it on world politics,
health, the economy, etc.  (Think of Soylent Green, also.  We ate
ourselves when it came down to it, why shouldn't a band of ruthless
aliens do the same?)

                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.

Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds

You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days.

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 8:59:50-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water]

  If the Visitors were advanced enough to build interplanetary
spacecraft, they ought to be able to synthesize water out of
hydrogen and oxygen.  (shouldn't they?)

Ken Varnum
(..decvax!dartvax!!kenv)

ps-  What happened to the other 49 mothercrafts????

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 8:27:16-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

The final battle was my effort to keep my dinner down when I saw how
they "resolved" the story.  So dumb I'm embarassed to admit I spent
the time watching.

In this morning's L.A. Times, they printed NBC's planned Fall
schedule.  "V" will be a regular series on Friday nights in the
8:00-9:00 slot.  Some Hollywood special-effects lab will be kept in
business for a while more, I guess.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 1984 1647 PDT
From: Eric P. Scott <EPS@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: V: no surprises
Reply-to: EPS@JPL-VLSI.ARPA

        ...the silly business of the little girl turning all
        sparkly and reversing the blow-up of the mother ship...

Firestopper!

        The obvious lead-in for a possible sequel, with Diana
        taking off in the shuttle craft (shades of Darth Vader in
        his fighter at the end of SW - ANH!) was just too "cute"
        for words...

We should be so lucky.  NBC recently announced their fall lineup
(guess what's going to be a regular series?).

Are there that few "aliens invade Earth" plots, or am I just
suffering from a bad case of deja vu?  "Technologically advanced
aliens arrive, claim to be our friends, set up an `exchange
program,' really want humans for munchies" (=> Twilight Zone "To
Serve Man") "Reptilian aliens wear body suits to pass for human,
hybrid daughter uses strange powers at the end" (=> "Strange
Invaders") etc.

Anyone else take to referring to Robin's daughter as "Lizard
Breath?"  V would lend itself well to a MAD-style treatment...  "I
couldn't help but noticing that you have `ring around the collar.'"
Pickles and mousies...
                                        -=EPS=-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:43:15 PDT
From: Barry Gold <lcc.barry@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: W&W

W&W installment 16 is available via ftp on BNL in file
/usr/barry/ww16.  If you can't use ftp and aren't already on the
mailing list, send mail to me at lcc!barry@UCLA-LOCUS.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #87
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 May 84 1451-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #87
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:
        Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Corey (3 msgs) & Finney &
                Robinson & Sex in SF,
        Films - Roll-Your-Own-Films,
        Television - V: The Final Battle,
        Miscellaneous - Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 10:02:11-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!jsanders @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: pun help needed

Anyone understand the pun at the end of Asimov's short story "Sure
Thing" in "The Winds of Change.."? The pun is "Sloane's Teddy wins
the race."

The only twist I can think of is "Tony's Sled wins the race" but
that means absolutely nothing to me.

                                        Jeremy Sanders
{ihnp4|spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!sanders

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 5:16:06-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!zben @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: pun help needed

Would you believe "Slow and steady wins the race"?

Ben Cranston   ...seismo!umcp-cs!zben      zben@umd2.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 May 84 14:05:26-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Title Enquiry

The "small African country" in the near future is surely the story
"Manna", by Lee Corey, serialised last year in Analog, now out in
pb.

As I recall, it wasn't libertarian, more mercantilist, but made very
well the point that we can ALL get rich in an open (non-zero-sum)
system, and that there are people who will do almost anything to
stop such systems from happening, because they would then have no
more helots to boss around.

It's a good story, and the characterisation came over better (to me)
than in "Shuttle Down".  There's even a "competent man" in it,
rather more believable than most of Heinlein's.  Buy it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 1984  17:23 EDT
From: Rob MacLachlan <RAM@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Libertatian SF

    Might that recent, somewhat libertarian book be "Manna" by Lee
Corey?  I read this when it was serialized in Analog, and it was
reasonably entertaining.  It seemed that his big idea was not
libertarianism, but the end of the "Economy of Scarcity", meaning
that there's enough goodies to go around, so people don't have to be
so nasty to each other.  Of course there are certain parties that
like things very fine the way they are, thank you, so there is quit
a bit of action.

  Rob

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 17:46:57-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: libertarian sf

    Oh, recently a novel was published that takes place in a
    mythical African country of the future which is basically
    libertarian in a world of corporate states, and it is quite good
    despite the propaganda, but for the life of me I can't remember
    the author or title--perhaps someone else on the net knows, as I
    would like to read more by the author.

It's "Manna", by Lee Corey (aka G.  Harry Stine).  The propaganda is
a little thick, but the Libertarianism flows more or less naturally
from the Philosophy of Abundance that is the central idea forming
the basis of the country in which the novel takes place.  I would
like to know if there is some connection between the backgrounds of
the inhabitants of the country (predominantly African and Persian
Gulf) and this philosophy, something that predisposes to it.

Correy's other books all speak somewhat to personal freedom;
"Skydriver" discusses freedom in an business setting; "Space Doctor"
and "Shuttle Down" have side plots based in freedom of personal
choice.  Primarily Stine promotes space.  The political and personal
ramifications flow from the wealth, the "pioneering" spirit, and the
attitude of the people attracted by the challenges.

This philosophy is reflected in a lot of authors: Heinlein, Niven,
and Pournelle jump to mind.

                Lyle McElhaney
                (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 11:17:03 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Re: TZ time travel: "The Third Level"
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@XEROX.ARPA>

The author of the story on which that episode is based is Jack
Finney, best known for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." He also has
written several short stories that have similarly nice fantasy and
time travel blendings, most notably "The Love Letters," with lovers
sending letters across a century.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 11:55:11-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #64

     Ok, I for do NOT like Spider Robinson!!  There!

     Well, to be truthful, I have only read Stardance , Telempath,
and a Callahan's Saloon story.  Stardance was o.k. and successfully
made the transition from novella to novel.  Telempath didn't; the
puns in it were so bad that at times I felt like strangling the
author.  The puns DID NOT add to the story.  The same goes with the
Callahan story.  Robinson is too punny; blah!

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 0:51:44-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Blue Sky Fie

        "Blue Sky Fie", huh? Cute phrase; but not too many examples
of the stuff around, last time I checked. This has always been a
pretty strait-laced genre. But there are exceptions. No discussion
of the subject would be complete, I think, without mention of the
field's greatest pioneer in this area, Philip Jose Farmer. Even his
classic "The Lovers", which dates from the early '50's and is not
even racy by today's standards, much less pornographic, was
considered very shocking in its day, and I have heard it languished
for some time before finding a publisher.
        Forget the namby-pamby stuff, though - Farmer's real claim
to fame in the Blue Sky Fie department comes from a number of books
he wrote in the late '60's. The three I'm aware of are IMAGE OF THE
BEAST, BLOWN, and A FEAST UNKNOWN, of which I have read the first
and last named. I believe there was a fourth book which would
qualify, but I don't know the title.
        Farmer is a fine writer, but if your curiosity should lead
you to trying these books BE WARNED: these are not what most people
would call 'erotica' - they're more like what Stephen King calls the
'gross-out', and gross they are. I think Farmer's intent was to
shock the reader speechless, not to provide a turn-on. There's a lot
more emphasis on blood, gore, guts and veins-in-your-teeth than
there is on sex.
        Me, I don't know what to make of 'em. They're too unlike
typical pornography to have been a simple hacking-for-money job. I
guess they're an attempt to overload and short-circuit the
'civilized' parts of the reader's nature, a sensory-overload trip,
like some drugs. But I speak as shouldn't, for I didn't like the
ones I read, so I probably missed the point.
        But whatever their quality, these books clearly show that
Farmer is a true pioneer of Blue Sky Fie, and should be recognized
for it.
                                          Kenn Barry
                                          NASA-Ames Research Center
                                          Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:              {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 84 14:51 PDT
From: Harris Shiffman <Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Roll-Your-Own-Films

This is kinda fun.  How about some early Heinlein, from before his
sexually explicit days?  Specifically:

Double Star - Always had a fondness for this one.  Redford would be
     perfect as Bonforte.  I wonder if he could do a sufficiently
     broad performance to be a convincing Lorenzo.

The Puppet Masters - If Hollywood can do Invasion of the Body
     Snatchers (twice), why not another (arguably) better tale of
     alien invasion?

The Door Into Summer - A perfect SF tearjerker.  Would have to be
     updated a bit, as Heinlein's view of the technological level
     of the 70's was a bit too optimistic.

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 10:33:31-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Nonsense in V

I too, was disappointed in the ending of V.  Too predictable, and
too much like Star Wars.  I was expecting the ending to go something
like this:

Since Elizabeth witnessed three murders (1 -- her mother murdered
her boyfriend, 2 -- Diana murdered Pamela, and 3 -- Diana murdered
her commander (?)) I expected that she would have gotten a taste of
blood.  Following this, instead of stopping the nuclear destruction,
I expected that she, following the example of those she saw, was
actually going to START it!  The Earth would have been saved of
course, but at the cost of the lives of the rebellion (there ought
to be some cost for freedom, shouldn't there?)

The greatest letdown was Diana's escape.  Reminiscent of Darth
Vader's escape.  Now they have to make a sequel.  That is the
problem with sci-fi -- Hollywood just wont let it go ... admit they
did a good thing and let it go at that.  Instead, they figure they
have to go all the way with a good idea, and drain as much money out
of it as possible.  This problem plagued TV shows such as Battlestar
Galactica and led to their eventual demise.  Look for a new TV show
one fall:

                V:  The Battle Continues

and we will all be flaming about how the TV show is losing in the
years to come.
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 14:27:29 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy

                                 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                   Episode 1 - First Meeting

One day, not long after tomorrow, Arnold Lint was busy scrolling
through the seemingly infinite reaches of the Net. All of a sudden
the news stopped with an abrupt thud, followed by the angry message
"YOUR NODE HAS BEEN REDUCED TO A LITTLE BLACK, GREASY SPLOTCH IN MY
MEMORY SPACE!!".  No sooner had he assimilated this horrendous event
when a great suction like noise began to eminate from his terminal.
"This is it", he said to himself, "I'm going to die". The screen on
his terminal the imploded and he suddenly found himself sucked into
the terminal . . . . . . . . . . . .

(Arnold Lint regains consciousness, only to find himself in the
company of an odd trio. One of the trio is an apparently normal
human male (named Rod Perfect) and the second is a voluptuous young
woman (named Gillian). The third is also a normal male (named Xaphod
Gronklebox), except for a third, mechanical, arm and a 12" CRT on
his shoulder that keeps scrolling "Pieces of Eight, Pieces of
Eight".)

Rod: Evening all! I'm Rod Perfect, awfully rude of you imploding on
        us this way, you silly twit.
Arnold Lint: Sorry. Am I dead?

Xaphod: Obviously not, you semi-evolved simian! Are all you
        net-landers so stupid. If you were dead would I be talking
        to you? I'm Xaphod Gronklebox, the famous inter-net-al
        criminal and dog molester - you must have heard of me.

Arnold Lint: Actually, no, I haven't.
Xaphod: Oh well, your loss. I just hijacked this node! It's called
        the Infinity, isn't it wild. Just imagine the places we can
        go in this baby.

(Rod notices that Arnold's eyes are transfixed on the young woman)

Rod: Her name's Gillian, at least that's what she wants to be called.
        Actually, her real name is Gertrude Floogie, but she didnt't
        like it, so she changed it.

(Arnold Lint detects a mechanical sound to his right. A robot soon
walks into view)

Robot:  My name is Martin. I am sure you will have an
        absolutely awful time on this node, I always have.
        I do not know why they insist on trying to do
        things to change the Net, they can only make it
        worse.  No matter what happens, some one always
        says something stupid and ruins everything. Then
        someone else feels obliged to a rebuttal, and on
        and on it goes. How awful. Still, what do you
        expect from an imperfect Net.

Rod: Martin is a bit, well, depressing.
Xaphod: He's a real downer, man!
Martin: That's right, ridicule me. See what I care. I'm only an
        android. Just another example of cruelty in this awful Net.

(********************************************************************
The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines cruelty as having to see
constant repetitions of the same salutory comment in more than 20
messages.  History shows that a war was fought over the repetition of
the statement "If you don't like my name - push off, signed xxxx"
appearing in 200 messages from the node of Moronicus. Since that
time, any time a salutory message is used more than 20 times,
subsequent violators have their pelvis screwed to a cake stand while
they are forced to watch repeats of "The Gong Show".
********************************************************************)

Arnold Lint: Well, what do we do now?
Xaphod: We're on our way to Netrothea. (The 12" CRT on his
        shoulder now starts repeating "Polly want a
        sedative, Polly want a sedative") There's supposed
        to be all sorts of wild and amazingly great things
        in that place!

Rod: Martin, set course for Netrothea!
Martin: All right, but you're not going to like it.
Gillian: What will we find on Netrothea?
Xaphod: Well, there's supposed to be a huge stockpile of data there
        that we can sell to the Net for millions.
Arnold Lint: A stockpile of what?
Xaphod: Data! Data! You idiot. Knowledge is power in the Net. All
that data has been accumulating over the centuries. Just imagine the
amazingly amazing philosophical Net-discussions that it stored. I
mean, the Net is the focal point of all wisdom. Just think of all
that smart stuff! Wow!

(********************************************************************
The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" insists that the focal point of
all knowledge in not the Net itself. Rather, it is the fourth stall in
the mens room in Grand Central Station. No one has ever been dumb
enough to waste time disproving this wild claim, so the publishers
avoided some nasty laws suits.
********************************************************************)

Xaphod: We'll have millions! We'll buy everything! No, we'll have
        billions, trillions, . . . .

(Xaphod begins to shake violently and froth at the mouth, then he
falls over backward. A few seconds later he comes to.)

Xaphod: Well, lets go!
Rod: You all right?
Xaphod: Yah, sure. Just the excitement of new conquests.
Arnold Lint: Looked more like Flamers-syndrome to me.
Xaphod: You should talk, you  key-pounding half-wit.
Gillian: If we're going to go, lets go already.
Martin: Do we really have to?
Rod: YES!

(Just as the node starts on it's way, a host of flame-shaped vessels
became visible on the scanners)

Rod: Funny you should mention Flamers-syndrome.
Xaphod: Oh, hell!
Gillian: What are they?
Xaphod: Damn, those are ships belonging the Flamers. They
        go after anything, no matter how pointless or
        unimportant it is. If they catch us, we could
        suffer permanent brain damage, or worse yet - join
        the Moral Majority

Arnold Lint: So this it it, we're all going to die!
Martin: I told you that you would like it.
Others: Oh Shut Up!

        ******************** End Of Part 1 ********************

Will Arnold and his new travelling companions escape the Flamers? Or
will they end up playing rock albums backwards at 66.6 RPM? For the
answers to these, and countless other pointless questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #88
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 84 1233-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #88
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:
            Books - Dewdney & SF Best Sellers (2 msgs),
            Films - Star Trek (4 msgs) & Star Wars,
            Television - V: The Final Battle,
            Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 8:06:12-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: review of "The Planiverse"

How can there be "underground" in a 2D world?

                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 8:50:32-PDT (Mon)
From: sri-unix!hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!jensenj@stolaf.UUCP
Subject: SF best sellers

In recent years SF books have sort of graduated in the public eye
from "pulp" to bona fide "literature" as evidenced by the sudden
inclusion of many good SF books into the national best sellers
lists.  While there have been many such books, they are still too
few.  But while they are still few enough in number, it should be
possible for us to compile a fairly good list of such books.
Include straight SF even fantasy.  (I would like to include Stephen
King too, but that might be pushing it a bit too far...)

Here are a few that come immediately to mind:

Asimov -- Foundation's Edge       Heinlein -- Friday
Clarke -- 2010:  Oddessey Two     Donaldson -- White Gold Wielder
                                               The One Tree
                                               The Wounded Land

I know Marion Zimmer Bradley had at least one, but I don't remember
the title.  Anybody want to have a shot at it?

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 8:48:42-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF best sellers

Well, this just goes to show that there is no relationship between
best sellers and literature.

Anyway, Nevil Shute's "On the Beach" must have been a best seller
(maybe literature too).
                Cliff Shaffer
                ...rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 15:53:51-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!randy
From: @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die...

        I disagree that transporters, assuming they exist, could not
        be used to remove the problem of the genesis machine. If you
        would recall the episode "Wolf in the Fold"...

        The entity who once was called Jack the Ripper, and who
        migrated to Rigel IV with mankind, and then to Argelius has
        taken over the Enterprise computer system. The crew and
        computer system (!) are given some form of a tranquilizer
        forcing the being into a "dead" body. The body is then
        sedated and placed in the transporter and...

                beamed out into space at the widest possible angle!

        Given that our only source of information about the
        Enterprise is the series and previous movies, the genesis
        machine could have been dispersed.

        The "ionic" interference which blinded the Enterprise
        sensors would have probably caused the transporter to be
        unsafe (Because, it would not be able to reconstruct the
        transportee at the destination, which is the exact effect
        desired in this case.

                Randall S. Becker
Usenet: {dalcs,dciem,garfield,musocs,qucis,sask,titan,
        trigraph,ubc-vision,utzoo,watmath,allegra,cornell,
        decvax,decwrl,ihnp4,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!randy
CSNET:  randy@Toronto
ARPA:   randy%Toronto@CSNet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 17:19:43-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!josh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: spock didnot have to die.......

one: I know this is interesting but as someone said....
        "For every new posting there is 20 followups"
        I don't believe this.  "for every new posting that
        has nothing to do with the real world there results 20
        followups"

two: If the genesis device was beamed into the transporter
        could the transporter have kept it without putting it
        anywhere?  In some shows people have been held in the
        transporter for times and did not even notice.  They
        could have beamed the genesis into the transporter and
        fixed the warp engines at their convenience. Then and
        only then ,when the warps were fixed,  put it back
        out into the real world and move away.  QED

I could always be wrong....

          Josh Siegel
        University of New Mexico

{convex,ucbvax,gatech,csu-cs,anl-mcs,lanl-a}!unmvax!unm-cvax!josh

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 13:45:18-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!yale-comix!nglasser @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spock didn't have to die

I think the way the genesis probe was discussed was the following (I
last saw TWOK about 2 or 3 months ago): Spock noticed an unusual
energy pattern.  David told him it was the genesis wave. Kirk
suggested that they beam it aboard and disable it, but David told
him that there was no way to stop it. So that's when it became clear
that the only thing they could do was warp out of there as fast as
possible.
                                Nathan Glasser
                                ..decvax!yale-comix!nglasser

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 16:31:42-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: beaming the genesis machine

It was always stated that the transporter would not work thru
shields.  No beaming bombs into the other guy's engine room.  If the
genesis machine generated any kind of field at all it might be
impossible to lock onto it when it was active.

                                            Jerry Aguirre
    {hplabs|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 17:15:52-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon.

       Anyone care to speculate on the plausibility of this weapon?
    It seems like it should work.  My only question was -- how about
    the strong nuclear force in the atom?  I thought that this force
    was much stronger than the electromagnetic force at distances on
    the order of an nuclear radius.

The strong nuclear force does indeed hold the nucleus together.
There seems to be confusion between the nucleus and the atom itself.
The weapon neutralizes the charges on the electrons, which become
something very like small-mass neutrinos, and they leave the scene
to the unshielded nuclei. These disperse due to their mutual
magnetic repulsion. They do not themselves disintegrate, presumably
because the weapon does not affect their magnetic repulsion/strong
force attraction balance. The radius of effect of the strong force
is on the order of the size of the nucleus; the size of an atom (its
electron shells) is several orders of magnitude greater and the
strong force has no role in keeping the electrons with the nucleus.

The plausibility is the same as for FTL, thiotimoline, and the radio
in Galileo's day - impossibly small *at this time*. Later on, who
knows?
                Lyle McElhaney
                (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 84 11:23:13 EDT
From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) <wmartin@BRL-VGR.ARPA>
Subject: Yet more on "V"

To beat a dead horse even further, we had a discussion here about
"V" regarding what the writers (I use the word loosely) COULD have
done with the [admittedly incredible] idea of the cross-racial
children, instead of the rather weak and sloppy ending they did come
up with.

My idea: Both children live. The little girl turns out to have all
the nasty and evil qualities of the aliens' psyches, is a quisling
turncoat traitor, and helps the Visitors in their malevolent
missions.  (The story would continue over years beyond the birth, of
course, and the children would grow at a more normal pace, not the
silly speeded-up situation that was used.) The reptile creature
remains nasty-looking, but has all the good qualities that can be
found in humans, a veritable saint in fact. He helps the rebels,
maybe has psychic powers, etc.

The idea of a colleague: Ignoring the reptile child for now, and
concentrating on the girl. She grows up to be a chameleon, able to
shift her shape into a reptile or human at will. She forms a bridge
between the species.

Either of those ideas would have improved the ending of "V"
immensely, and also provided ample opportunities for spinoffs ("I
Married A Reptile", "Father Sssss", etc.) and sequels ("The Return
Of V", "Son of V", "Beneath the Planet of the Vs", etc.).

Where do I go to pick up my check?

Will

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 12:13:01 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 2

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                           Episode 2 - The Flamers

(The Infinity's scanners are showing the Flamer's ships approaching
fast.  Arnold Lint and Rod Perfect are franticly scurrying about.
Xaphod is trying to figure out how to fly the node, and Gillian is
fixing her makeup. Martin the android is off on a corner moping about
how he's too young to die.)

Xaphod: This is the node Infinity, we are on a peaceful, although a
        bit mercenary, mission. Hold your fire.

(The commander of the Flamer's fleet appears on the screen. He
appears to be a normal human, except for a small silver halo stapled
to his head.)

Flamer: I am Adolf Riteyus, commander of the Flaming Queen. You have
        violated Flaming space and must be blasted. You will be given
        a fair and drawn out hearing before you are found guilty.
Rod:    We didn't know this was Flaming space!
Adolf:  Ignorance is no excuse. Do you think that just
        because you don't know something you shouldn't be
        responsible for it? Why, if we didn't go around
        blasting people who thought they were innocent,
        there'd be no order. The whole power structure of
        the Net is based on the inalienable right to
        flame. He who flames the loudest and strongest
        will prevail, for he will have maintained purity
        of essence by not compromising his principles. It
        doesn't matter what one flames about, as long as
        one comes out a winner. Winning the argument for
        mandatory retroactive birth control is one of our
        greatest victories.  We Flamers always win because
        we never give up. No, things are either our way or
        they're WRONG.

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists the Flamers as one of the
most argumentative races in the Net. History shows that the Flamers
went to war over the right to keep and bear tongue depressors. They
also had a violent and bloody discussion over the morality of Odor
Eaters. The only time the Flamers can be easily beaten in combat is
on Sunday mornings when they all watch evangelist shows, or during
Ronco "Mr. Microphone" commercials (their symbol of worship).]

Gillian:        What should we do?
Xaphod: How 'bout evasive actions?
Marvin: It won't help.
Rod:    Oh shut up!
Rod:    OK, evasive action!
Adolf:  Where do you come from?
Xaphod: Not from around here.
Adolf:  Where are you headed?
Rod:    Left.
Gillian:        That's telling him?
Adolf:  What is your favorite color?
Arnold Lint:    My what?
Adolf:  Your favorite color!
Rod:    White!
Adolf:  What is the maximum warp speed of a ladened Swaldrel?
Xaphod: Denebian or Rigelian?
Adolf:  I don't know that . . . all right, enough evading, if you
        don't surrender in the next five seconds I'll blast you right
        out of existance.
Rod:    Well, now what.
Adolf:  Five!
Arnold Lint:    What's this button do?
Adolf:  Four!
Xaphod: That's the Illogical Drive. It propels the node on power from
        hard drugs and acid rock. It's kind of dangerous though.
Adolf:  Three!
Arnold Lint:    Should we try it?
Adolf:  Two!
Rod:    Well, lets not . . . Four!
Adolf:  Four!
Arnold Lint:    So this is it, we're all going to die.
Adolf:  Three!
Martin: I warned you about this trip.
Adolf:  Two!
Xaphod: All right, all right, engage the Illogical Drive!
Adolf:  One!

(Arnold Lint engages the Illogical drive. Images of the movie "Easy
Rider" float across the view port. "In-a-gadda-da-vida" starts coming
across the radio. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts scrolling
"Wow man, what a trip!". The scanners show that the Flamers couldn't
handle the sudden flood of sensory excitation and burst their brains.
This only made their reactions a bit slower though as the Flamer's
brain is remarkably small. The Infinity, charged up with Liquid Super
Duetrillium, was able to make warp speed and turn the corner before
the Highway patrol picked them up on radar. This was fortunate for it
meant that they wouldn't be caught by Spiny Norman, the 45 foot blue
hedgehog that had been following them.)

Gillian:        We made it.
Rod:    Yah, where are we Martin.
Martin: We're way out man.
Xaphod: Oh, he's useless now - it'll take a while before he comes
        down.
Arnold Lint:    At least he isn't so gloomy.
Martin: Nooo body knows, the trouble I've see . . . have any of you
        ever contemplated the death of a grain of salt?

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the life and
death of a grain of salt can have amazing importance in the course of
life on the Net.  On particular grain of salt (named Nigel) was
responsible for the overthrow of an entire government. Nigel gave his

                  . <- Nigel

life by falling into the barrel of a shotgun that was aimed at the
planets dictator. Thanks to lousy marksmanship on the part of the
rebels, only Nigel was able to hit the dictator. The rest of the buck
shot killed the dictator's pet salmon, Eric.  Nigel, however,
penetrated the dictators eye and eventually killed him 8 months later
just before a firing squad cut the dictator in two.]

Rod:    Shut Up!
Xaphod: Well, lets get back on course.
Arnold Lint:    What are those?

(The scanners now show a dozen ships shaped like the number one
heading toward the Infinity.)

Xaphod: Those are Singularan ships. They're worse than flamers!
Rod: Oh yeah, they're worse than a visit from an insurance salesman.
Gillian:They're normally mild mannered computer scientists. But
        when they get on the Net, they become endowed with a
        superhuman ability to talk about incredibly personal things,
        things they couldn't otherwise discuss.
Arnold Lint:    Sounds awful.
Martin: That's what I keep telling you.
Rod:    Shut up!
Xaphod: If we don't get out of here fast, we'll end up
        debating which finger a divorced person should
        wear his or her ring on when going to homosexual
        orgies - or worse, have to go to a Pot Luck Dinner
        where all that the people do is talk.

        ******************** End Of Part 2 ********************

Will the crew of the Infinity avoid the clutches of the Singularans?
Or will they end up exchanging recipes for onion dip. For the answers
to these and several other amazingly unimportant questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #89
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 84 1304-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #89
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:
         Films - Enemy Mine & Roll-Your-Own Films (3 msgs),
         Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - Art and Literature & How to get Rich (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 May 1984 09:24:47-EDT
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc
Subject: Enemy Mine

Could this be a film adaptation of the novella "Enemy Mine" by Barry
Longyear?  It's FAIRLY do-able, though seems to me there was a lot
of talk-scenes among the action.  Audiences will like it, though, if
it's brought off - good, clean, sentimental tear-jerker.  And I'm
happy for Longyear, he's a hard worker and a nice guy.

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 20:16:16-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!smw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in films)

> From: matt@oddjob.UChicago.UUCP (Matt Crawford)
>
> ... In particular I think that there has been no real portrayal of
> aliens as complete characters in the movies....  You are free to
> claim that Chmeee and Phssthpok are flat compared to, say, human
> characters in Casablanca or GWTW, but the competition in sf films
> is with the likes of Chewbacca and E.T. (Who knows what the hell
> they're thinking about?), Yoda (of the one-track mind), or the
> Blob.
> Any counter-examples?

Why, OF COURSE.  The best-developed character in all of the realm of
science fiction -- from the original concept, through 79 TV episodes
and reams of further material, culminating in three movies.  Spock,
of the planet Vulcan.

Okay, he's only half alien.  Then again, Phssthpok (is that spelled
right?)  is also of the same blood as humans.

Stewart Wiener             :-) someone just smiled for no special
Princeton Univ. EECS       :-) reason, looks like the smile's come
princeton!tilt!smw         :-) back into season...

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 17:28:41-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!dp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: roll your own sf films

I agree absolutely that "A Princess of Mars" should be made in the
near future. Personally, I think that Spielberg would be the best
choice as director, but his talents should be enhanced by the
presence of Lucas in a creative and organizational role (producer
perhaps). The "Star Wars" trilogy has already demonstrated Lucas'
ability to create and accurately follow the history of an entirely
imaginary civilization without allowing these details to swallow up
the swashbuckling flavor of his stories. The "Star Wars" movies have
more in common with Burroughs' Barsoom stories than any other work
of fiction (in any medium) that I am familiar with. Lucas alone has
demonstrated the capacity to generate the atmosphere of adventure
amidst totally alien settings (albeit at the expense of depth of
character) which was Burroughs' specialty (no one ever accused
Burroughs of overcharacterization, either). In addition, someone
like Lucas should be looking over Spielberg's shoulder to make
certain the movie maintains the breakneck pace of the Barsoom books;
try comparing the pace of "Raiders..." (joint Lucas/Spielberg
effort) with that of CE3K, E.T., or even "Jaws". I agree that John
Carter would be difficult to cast. He is the element I like the
least about the Barsoomian novels, since he is too close to the
stuff of mythology to be at all unpredictable; in this sense, some
of the later books ("Chessmen of Mars") would somewhat avoid the
problem of a "Superman" on Barsoom by deflecting attention from him
to a less imposing figure. Whoever plays John Carter must be
impressive physically (in appearence and agility), but also not take
the character too seriously. I have often thought that Chris Reeve
might make a decent John Carter because of his well-played (at least
in the first film) role as Superman (an even more awful part to
play), but I believe that the setting and atmosphere of a Barsoomian
adaptation would be much more important to its success. For this
reason, I would also hope that John Williams, whose music captures
the spirit of adventure better than that of any other modern
composer, would write the score (an immensely important part of the
atmosphere in this sort of film). In any case, all of the preceding
is simply my personal speculation; I hope that American
International Pictures (the people who brought us "At the Earth's
Core" from the Pellucidar series and "The Land that Time Forgot"
from the Caspak series : yuck [ed. comment]) does not still own the
rights to Barsoom as they did during the 1970's, or someday soon we
may see Doug McClure as John Carter... I welcome any discussion
about the Barsoomian series which anyone might like to start.

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 1984 10:17:34-EDT
From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY
Subject: roll your own

I don't really think there's a better book to make into a film than
Heinlein's Starship Troopers.  It's got spaceships and rayguns for
the kiddies (and each one will want his Mattel-HeinFILMS *Official*
DropShip with the Cap-Trooper Action Figures, ad nauseum), a very
solid basis in science for the nit-pickers, some nice sociological
interplay in the background (whether or not you agree with it), and
it's about the right length.

We open aboard the Valley Forge (that was the first ship, no?), for
suiting up, and dropping.  Then we switch to a knoll above a small
city at dawn.  There is a 'skinny' standing there when hell breaks
loose from above.  'Eggs' are dropping all over the place, there are
fires...

Can't wait to see it ...
                        ... from the oft confused world of
                            Robert A Zimmermann
                            raz@cmu-ee-faraday

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 14:28:22 PDT (Monday)
From: GMeredith.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #83

In same issues of the Digest carrying messages about 'V', there
appear messages about pornography in SF and in one of the latter,
the author makes a statement about 'a little SF with the porn' vs a
little porn with the SF.

In the case of 'V', it is a matter of a little SF in the soap opera.
The holes in the 'science' are nothing compared to the holes in the
plot flow, which seems to be a series of almost individual stories
(originally intended as weekly episodes in a series?) thrown
together.

In turn, the plot within the sub-story is driven by the sleazy soap
technique of adding 'action' through contrived, superficial
situations based on gross character flaws or immature actions of the
characters (note the willfull, childish, simplistic nature of the
lead male and his competitor or the female lead in the Visitor
group).

The special effects were acceptable, though the second 'twin' looked
like something out of the cheapest of the Japanese drivel.  'Attack
of the Killer Tomatoes' did better with less.

If it bothers me so much why did I watch the all three parts (did
not see the first show a few months back)?  I ask the same thing:
perhaps it is for the same reason idiots stop to ogle traffic
accidents.

Guy

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 21:10:02-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!chris @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the fin

(Doc Smith Lives!)

I somehow doubt that water is nearly as precious as you think.  The
moons and rings of saturn are believed to include some large (multi
cubic mile) chunks of ice. Even rocks contain quite a bit of water.
Plans for a moon base include a device for disassociating water from
the lunar soil. Mars has ice caps, venus has water in the clouds
(they are sulfuric acid clouds, but there is lots of water in them)
and the outer planets have water vapor and ice.

The next argument is that "It is too hard/expensive to get to this
water".  The answer is that it's far harder to cross space to
another star.  The British Interplanetary Society did a design
project called Daedelus that was designed to send an instrument
package to Barnard's Star. It was phenominally expensive, on the
order of the GNP of the US. The project involved mining the
atmosphere of Jupiter for fuel for the craft. If we can scoop
atmosphere out of Jupiter, we can move some ice moons from Saturn.
All this was just to send a small instrument package four and a
scosh light years. Trying to transport the populace of a world would
have to be much more expensive. Even allowing for
warp/hyperspace/subspace types of drives, it would still be
amazingly expensive to transport large numbers of people between the
stars.

The final problem is that planets change very slowly. It takes
millions of years for things like the amount of water to change
significantly. The only example we have of a planet that has dried
out is mars. Is used to have more water (pictures show unmistakable
erosion features) but it never had seas or oceans. At best there was
enough water to dig some large canyons. It took literally hundreds
of millions of years for even this small (compared to the earth)
amount to be lost to space. The length of time necessary for a water
world to dry out is large even by geological standards.

The problem with Hollywood SF is that it is largely done by people
who are not SF enthusiasts. Today they do SF, tomorrow adventure,
and on tuesday, psychodrama. V was better then it might have been
(Battlescared Lexicon comes to mind) but it still wasn't that good.

                        chris
                        vortex!ism780!chris
                        decvax!cca!ima!ism780!chris

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 14:53:14-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!bsw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water]

And If the "Visitors" were just meanies who enjoy destroying
inhabited worlds, etc. then why didn't they just take the polar ice
caps, which would take less room, if they kept it around 32 degrees
F. Plus, they also needed humes for food (Here mousie!...)

                Ben Walls
                ...cbosgd!bsw

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 23:09:37-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

>> "V" will be a regular series on Friday nights in the 8:00-9:00
>> slot.

I seem to recall that Galactica came on in the 8:00-9:00 slot also.
(Fate!!  We will be watching "V" reruns 2 years from now.)

I doubt "V" will outdraw Benson/Webster.  It might stand a chance
against The Dukes of Hazzard.
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 84 21:47:25 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: art and literature and sf uber alles

"................................................The best of us are
producing works of fiction which are broader in their understanding
of the current state of humanity than all but the very best of
mainstream literature.  In another forty years mainstream will have
fallen into its own navel and disappeared, and I won't miss it.  "

                        --Jeff Duntemann    duntemann.wbst@xerox

I composed a flaming rebuttal to this submission, but when it
reached 100 lines I realized that this was not such a good idea.
Suffice it to say that I do not believe that the best works of
recent fiction are sf, and I do not believe that sf is destined to
conquer.  Anyone who really does believe this is invited to
correspond with me privately.  I don't think it's worth the reading
list's time to rebut this kind of claim.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                                        ...ucb-vax!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 84 0:44:05-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine

        >2) My second thought concerns mankind's tendency to make
        >war.  At those times men [...] black marketeering without
        >affecting his own future.  As an example, take Patton near
        >the end of the European conflict in WWII.  His push
        >northward into Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel.
        >Since, in an historical sense, the Allies were destined to
        >win anyway, it may not have made a great deal of difference
        >who reached Berlin first.  Patton would have liked to do it
        >himself and I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere,
        >he would have paid enough for it to make it worth one's
        >while.

    >The problem here is twofold. (1) George Patton was not an
    >extreamly >wealthy man. and (2) Do you have any idea how much
    >fuel Patton's IIIrd >Army used? It tookfornia 92152

The major point here is, does changing the time when the Americans
reached Berlin first have a bearing on future events?  I do not
remember when the Berlin Wall was built, but it most probably was a
consequence of Russia's occupation of Poland and East Germany.  Had
we reached there first, we could have avoided the building of the
wall, and possibly the Cold War might not have come to pass.  But
the ramifications of that are unknowable.  It may be that war might
have broken out between Russia and the U.S. for influence of Poland
and East Germany.  (This is outside of net.sf-lovers, so I think
I'll quit here.  Flame away!!)  --
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 16:51:40-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine

      The major point here is, does changing the time when the
      Americans reached Berlin first have a bearing on future
      events?  I do not remember when the Berlin Wall was built, but
      it most probably was a consequence of Russia's occupation of
      Poland and East Germany.  Had we reached there first, we could
      have avoided the building of the wall, and possibly the Cold
      War might not have come to pass.  But the ramifcations of that
      are unknowable.  It may be that war might have broken out
      between Russia and the U.S. for influence of Poland and East
      Germany.

Indeed it was a consequence, but somewhat more remote than appears
to be believed in the discussion. Russia's occupation of Poland and
East Germany became recognized, of course, at the close of WWII, in
1945. Berlin was partitioned at that time, to Russia's disgust,
since it was buried deep in "their" territory. The cold war really
began shortly after WWI ended; only our refusal to enter WWII until
after Hitler attacked its ally Russia kept us from a hot war with
Russia in the meantime.  The "wall of shame" was erected by the East
Germans in August of 1961, in response to the 1000 emigrants per day
leaving East Germany via West Berlin.

The cold war was in the cards; Berlin was only the convenient site
for the confrontation. Microhistory would have been changed if all
of Berlin and Germany had been liberated by the western powers in
1945 - the effect on the long run of history is much less certain.

Sorry about a dry history lesson in these surroundings, but if
history isn't clear, how can you (or I) tell it from an alternate
reality? :-) It's also far from the original subject, but who cares?

                Lyle McElhaney
                (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #90
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 84 1043-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #90
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:
             Books - Daley & Kurland & Libertarian SF &
                     Sex in SF (2 msgs), Trivia Answer,
             Films - Roll-Your-Own Films (2 msgs),
             Television - V: The Final Battle (3 msgs) & TV Writers,
             Miscellaneous - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 3

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 May 1984  11:34 EDT
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: A short review

I recently read a book by Brian Daley which surprised me with its
quality.  The book is "A Tapestry of Magics".  I was most impressed
with his characterization of the protagonist, one Crassmore, who has
the misfortune to have been born into a family where heroic deeds
are a tradition.  In fact his older brother is a bonafide Hero.

Crassmore, however, has the very sensible attitude that he would
rather be as far as possible from any heroic deeds -- it's safer.
In fact, his preference is for wine, women and song.  Unfortunately,
Crassmore is a member of an order of knights who are required to
heroically support the underdog whenever they are asked; if the
order ever hears of his having failed to uphold his knightly oath,
they will force him to retire to a monastery where all the monks are
celibate and sober (a fate just barely worse than death).

The book is the story of how Crassmore becomes a hero (not HERO, or
even Hero), while trying very hard to avoid it.

An enjoyable read with some good characters and some very memorable
scenes.  Worth buying in paperback.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 15 May 84 15:33:47-EDT
From: Janice Eisen <mdc.janice@mit-oz>
Subject: Michael Kurland

Kurland's novel about Aaron Burr (and Alexander Hamilton, and
zeppelins, and all sorts of wondrous stuff) is called THE WHENABOUTS
OF BURR.  Very enjoyable, but a warning: the ending is *very*
anticlimactic.
                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: Tue May 15, 1984 08:48:03 EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
Subject: Re: Libertarian SF?

I always had the impression that one of the purposes of literature
is to show the ideas/feelings of its author; thus, Heinlein,
Dickson, etc. use it to push libertarianism, and (it is reported) E.
E. "Doc" Smith used it to indicate that mankind should strive to be,
not just a jack-of-all-trades, but master of ALL of them.  Isn't
that a side-effect of the fact that all writing must necessarily
derive from the author's experiences and beliefs?

                        Brandon Allbery
                        ...decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsafw

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 May 84 16:13:20 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBN-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: blue skies,fi!

THE TIDES OF LUST, by Samuel Delaney. Graphically erotic (or vice
versa). Is it sf?

DHALGREN, ibid. Ditto, albeit not all the time.

ASTRA & FLONDRIX, by Seamus ?.  Creatively and amusingly
pornographic. Fantasy.

Some of Ted Sturgeon's stories, at least one of which appeared in
Hustler.

How about THE FORBIDDAN TOWER, Marion Z. Bradley...

THE BLUE WORLD, Jack Vance (no, that's blue, but not taboo...)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 May 84 02:50 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: sex in SF

How about Edmund Cooper's "Kronk" (aka "Son of Kronk" although god
knows why - there's no one called Kronk in the book) In this one - I
quote from memory as someone "borrowed" my copy and mysteriously
never returned it!  - a geneticist develops a new form of venereal
disease which has two effects - firstly everyone infected becomes
intensely nymphomaniac (and whatever the male equivalent is - I
apologise for the inherent sexism of parts of the English language)
- the next stage is that they become very passive and non-violent.
The book tells the tale of the inventor's widow (can't recall why
he's dead) and "friend"'s crusade to infect the world and bring
"peace in our time".  There is a catch, of course, but I hate
spoilers.  Among their first targets are, naturally, most of the
foreign embassies in London.  Of course, what I don't know, is
whether Cooper is published much in the US.  It's worth trying to
track down though, as well as being reasonably filthy the book is
very very funny.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 May 84 22:13:22 edt
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: trivia answer

   I've gotten absolutely no responses to the question of who was
first in the hearts of ASTOUNDING readers when Heinlein was second,
so I'll post this now and get it off my queue. The name was "Anson
MacDonald"---which was a pseudonym Heinlein and Campbell had created
so more than one Heinlein story could be run in an issue! (Anson was
RAH's middle (and his mother's maiden) name, but I'm not sure
why/whither MacDonald.) (Yes, Jerry, I got this originally from Ken
Johnson)

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 13:58:38 PDT (Tue)
From: Mike Brzustowicz <mab@aids-unix>
Subject: SF movie suggestions

How about the Stainless Steel Rat series...combine Star Wars with
Indiana Jones.

-Mike <mab@aids-unix>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 May 1984  11:25 EDT
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: roll your own SF movies...

I have always pictured the Chronicles of Amber with Donald
Sutherland (no relation) cast as Brand.  He fits the physical
description (tall, thin -- almost emaciated, red hair, etc.), and is
a fine actor.

Other possible subjects for a good SF/Fantasy movie include:

One or more segments of Vance's Dying Earth
Some of Anderson's Flandry series
Cherryh's Downbelow Station
Many Heinlein; my favorite candidate for a movie is "Magic, Inc."
Niven's "A Gift From Earth"
and many more which escape me at the moment.

Dean F. Sutherland

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 18:56:42-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Book of "V"

I got mail from someone who had read a book version of ....  Nazi
Lizards from Dry Space.  It included the latest final battle
episodes, and he had already read it before the show, I guess.

Just what we needed, but he indicated that it was better than the TV
version.  mike k

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 9:58:58-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

   Ahem. If any alien race wanted a vast quantity of water from our
solar system, it'd be >much< easier to get it from the rings of
Saturn, or the moons of Jupiter, than to descend deep into the
earth's gravity well, suck up >liquid< water (rather than solid
ice), and haul it all back up out of the gravity well. Don't you
think?
   Finding flaws with "V" is like shooting fish in a barrel; it's
too easy, and hence not much fun.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 4:12:34-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V

Too much like Star Wars?  How about too much like Star Trek The
Motion ''Picture''

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 10:11:37-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!iwpba!amigo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Why TV Writers Dont Care About Technical Accuracy

Michael Wahrman says:

>>      TV writers (producers and directors) have a model of the
>>      viewer that watches their work.  They believe that the
>>      viewer (1) doesn't care about accuracy, (2) doesn't care
>>      about consistancy, (3) is basically very stupid and (4)
>>      needs to have everything explained many times and (5) needs
>>      a lot of action or suspense on a regular basis especially
>>      right before a commercial or the channel will be switched.

In other words, as H. L. Mencken put it so well: "No one ever when
broke underestimating the taste of the American public."  That
probably also goes for the intelligence of American public as well.

                        John Hobson
                        AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL
                        ihnp4!iwpba!amigo (NOTE TEMPORARY MACHINE)

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 84 09:57:41 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 3

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                          Episode 3 - The Singularans

(Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are trying to decide what
to do now that they are being faced by the deadly Singularans.)

Xaphod: Oh wow, just when we got past the Flamers, we have to run
        into the 'Singles'. The Illogical drive won't work this time.
Rod:    No, and neither will evasive actions. They all talk that way!
Gillian:        What will we do then?
Arnold Lint:    I'll tell you . . . we're all going to die.
Xaphod: Shut your cake-hole!
Martin: I tried to tell you this trip would be a real downer, but
        would you listen?
Rod:    Quiet!
Xaphod: I guess we should see what they want.

(Xaphod switches on the two way video telecommunicator and RadaRange.
The face of the Singularan captain appears on the screen.  He is a
normal human wearing a T-shirt which says: "Have you ever really
listened to Manilow?" He is also sporting glow in the dark pants and
10 pounds of silver and gold chains arount his neck.)

Singularan:     Hey, like I'm Dirk Thawtphull. We were cruising by and
    saw your node. Interested in some meaningful relationships, free
    from the moral depravity that otherwise infects the net.
Xaphod: Well, I kind of like depravity.
Rod:    Yah, me too.
Dirk:   Wow, you'd love our S & M encounter group then, fershure!
Arnold Lint:    Your what?
Dirk:   S & M encounter group. We get together twice a week and
        exchange recipes and beatings.
Arnold Lint:    How could a group like that command such a strong
        node?
Xaphod: Well, the sudden popularity of Jogging induced widespread
  adoption of the principles of Single-ism. The subsequent rise of the
  sport of 'Joggering' reduced the numbers of Singularans to normal
  size. It appears that they may be making a come back though.

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines 'Joggering' as a sport
originated in Australia to combat the sudden drop in productivity
caused by having everybody jogging. Australian champion Bruce Karnage
describes the sport: "Well, there is a different way of catching both
male and female joggers. If it's a male, you flush him out into the
open with cigarette smoke, then chase him down in your 4 x 4 Land
Rover. When he's tired, bump him with the fender to stun him
momentarily. Then get out and with your driver pick him up by all
fours and run him head-first into the side of the truck. If it's a
female, bait a likely spot with designer jogging wear and then wait
for a flock to arrive. When one becomes interested, sneak up behind
her, very quietly. Then when you are about two feet away, and you can
see the sun dancing on her richly tanned flesh caressing her well
toned figure into a visual symphony of delight, split her skull with
a handy two-by-four. It's a lovely sport!" The sport later became
known as 'Walkmaning'.]

Rod:  We were on our way to Netrothea to pick up some ... uh ...
  fuel, yah that's it.
Dirk:  Well, we've got plenty of fuel, come on over and we'll let
  you have it.
Xaphod:  No, it's OK.
Dirk:  I insist!

(The Singularan ship lets out a pink and purple polka-dot ray that
engulfs the Infinity. Arnold Lint and company find themselves in a
room on the Singularan ship. It is decorated right out off the floor
of a K-Mart. K-Tel's "Feelings" album is playing "You light up my
existence" in the background, on the ceiling is a gigantic mirror,
and in one corner is a gigantic mood-bean-bag chair.)

Gillian:  How awful!
Martin:  Actually, I kind of like it, in a depressing sort of way.
Rod:  Quiet.
Arnold Lint:  Where are we.
Dirk:  You're aboard the Singularan vessel "Sincerity". You will
  remain here until you learn to develop meaningful relationships over
 the Net. Meaningful relationships based on honesty, truth, and having
 nothing to do with physical appearance. Relationships which will grow
  as you and your partner, or partners, share, or don't share, things
  you have, or don't have, in common. You will learn how to have
  every other  sentence include the words 'special' or 'meaningful
  relationship'.
Xaphod:  If he says "meaningful relationship" once more I'll have to
  pray to the porcelain buddha.
Rod:  Sickening, isn't it.
Dirk:  Right, enough of this. Wait here and we'll start programming
  you for meaningful relationships.

(Xaphod bends over a nearby table and vomits, the 12" CRT on his
shoulder starts scrolling "Uuuggghhh")

Gillian:  What did you mean about "programming" us?
Dirk:  We'll have to make you compatible with the environment and
  take away all your inhibitions when discussing your personal life on
  the Net. You'll be subjected to countless sessions watching
  repeats of "The Dating Game", "The Newlywed Game", and "Celebrity
  Wife Swapping". And that's only Stage 1!

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the three old
earth TV shows just mentioned were actually the basis for a huge
inter-conglomerate stock monopolizing scheme started by The Phone
Company. The questions asked on these shows were actually coded
messages issued by The Phone Company to the conglomerates it was
working with. These messages told the associated conglomerates about
which stocks to buy based on information gained by The Phone Company
by listening in on the phones of important companies. The client
corporations paid The Phone Company 1 million dollars for each such
message.  The seemingly idiotic contestants were, more often than
not, government agents trying to break The Phone Company's code.
Chuck Barris, the originator of the shows, was later found to be a
financial genius, rivaled only by Howard Hughes.]

Rod:  We gotta get put of here!
Xaphod:  Yah.
Rod:  You know what really gets Singularans put off? Rudeness and
  crudeness!
Arnold Lint:  What?
Rod: Rudeness, if we act real crude and rude, they'll beg us to leave!
Xaphod:  Great, let's try it!

(Dirk returns with three gorgeous women and one well built female
model andriod.)

Rod:  (To the first girl) Wow, look at that pair!
Xaphod:  (To the second girl) That's a lovely grab!
Rod:  (To the third girl) OK love, drop 'em!
Martin:  (To the female android) I wave my private parts toward
  approximate vector coordinates.
Gillian:  (To Dirk) Say Dirk, if you get some Saran-Wrap and
  chicken wire, I'll get the honey and the plunger.
Dirk:  Get out of here you disgusting filthly maladjusted perverts!

(The three women and one andriod exit with great haste. The crew of
the Infinity is beamed back to their node.)

Dirk:  Good riddens. Put on the flip side of  "Feelings" and pass
  the cheese dip. It's their loss, for only we know what true
  meaningful relationships are. Only we know the feeling of wholeness
  that comes from showing, or not showing, what one feels, or doesn't
  feel, with someone special we care about. We aren't hung up on
  physical things, we are spiritualists. At least, that's what we tell
  everyone else.

Xaphod:  Right, now on to Netrothea, nothing can stop us now.

    ******************** End Of Part 3 ********************

Will the crew of the Infinity reach Netrothea, or will Nothing stop
them? For the answers to this, and other useless questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #91
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 84 1214-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #91
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:
             Films - Star Trek (2 msgs),
             Television - V: The Final Battle (8 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Hitch hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 15 May 84 19:19:35-EDT
From: Vince Fuller <VAF@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SW-TWOK, Spock's death, etc.

Don't any of you remember "The Changeling"? As I recall, it was
possible to use the transporter to dematerialize someone and then
transport them out into space without bothering to send all of the
little bits in the same direction. Wasn't there some comment in "The
Changeling" about "Energize, maximum dispersion" or something like
that? As I recall, then beamed Nomad out into space, scattering him
all over a wide area. Seems this should have been equally possible
with the Genesis torpedo.

        --Vince

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 12:01:45-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die...

>       recall the episode "Wolf in the Fold"...  The entity . . .
>       body is then sedated and placed in the transporter and
>       beamed out into space at the widest possible angle!  Given
>       that our only source of information about the Enterprise is
>       the series and previous movies, the genesis machine could
>       have been dispersed.
>               Randall S. Becker

Well, Kirk did say to activate the transporter, "deep space . . .
widest angle of dispersion" but nowhere is it really made plain that
the body was dispersed.  Remember that the entity could not be
killed but would float in space, unable to do harm, until it
EVENTUALLY died.  The sedated body was only used as a "container"
for the entity until they could get it out of the ship.  What
happened to the body itself was of no consequence since the entity
did not need a body in order to live.  It would die whether it was
dispersed or not.  And the entity could not be affected.  No, we
have no real evidence to indicate that the body (or the entity) was
actually dispersed into separate molecules.  Infer all you want, but
if our only source of information is to be the TV episodes and
movies, we cannot reasonably establish that the Genesis device could
have been dispersed without harming the Enterprise.
        Roger Noe                       ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 84 16:35:39-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!mp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

None of the aliens I know ever came to earth JUST to get water.  The
ones in ``V'' also wanted to raise human cattle to ship back to
their local fast-food places, and in general their junket to earth
provided an excuse to wield power over a less-advanced race.  In
``The Man Who Fell To Earth'', David Bowie came here not only to get
water, but to watch TV as well.

This subject is getting rather dry (sorry).  Do yourself a favor and
don't analyze these movies' scientific facts so critically.

Not to say that V was good.  There were so many ripoffs from Star
Wars, Star Trek, War of the Worlds and other movies that I expected
to see Robbie The Robot or a computer that could talk and read lips.
You know, with a little more effort, V could have been turned into a
reasonably humorous 2-hour parody of famous sf films.
        Mark

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 11:34:17-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water]

        And If the "Visitors" were just meanies who enjoy destroying
        inhabated worlds, etc. then why didn't they just take the
        polar ice caps, which would take less room, if they kept it
        around 32 degrees F. Plus, they also needed humes for food
        (Here mousie!...)

The Earthlings wouldn't have let them take the polar ice caps
either, because lack of them would cause an imbalance in Earth's
climate, resulting in worldwide modified weather patterns, dropping
of the ocean levels, etc...
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 18:38:42-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!randy
From: @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Subtle Space Nazi Flaw

I realize that many viewers do not care about the accuracy of a SF
flic on network television, but few can accept a contradition to one
of the premises of that flic.

As we all know the Space Nazi Lizards were left handed. Those humans
who were captured and converted (whatever that means), started using
their left hands as well. Please offer some justification for ALL of
the main characters using their RIGHT hands to fire weapons.
Further, Diana always fired first at the victims shoulder. Not the
left but invariably the RIGHT one!

I am prepared to accept many violation of current known laws of
physics by Hollywood movie makers (they don't know better). But this
flic has gone too far!

Randall S. Becker
Usenet: {dalcs,dciem,garfield,musocs,qucis,sask,titan,
         trigraph,ubc-vision,utzoo,watmath,allegra,cornell,
         decvax,decwrl,ihnp4,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!randy
CSNET:  randy@Toronto
ARPA:   randy%Toronto@CSNet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 15 May 1984 07:52:41-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Brendan E. Boelke)
Subject: V

>>  1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally
>>  "drying" up, for any number of reasons....

        I don't believe they ever said the planet was 'drying up'.
I think the contention was that they had polluted/abused their
planets resources to the ultimate.

        Also, I conveniently decided to myself that the main reason
for the Visit was not the water, but the food.  If we pollute our
world to the point were we don't have any clean water, and if we
don't die from thirst, we'll surely die from hunger.  I think they
were out on a food hunting party, and the water was secondary.

        BTW, the book V, which I read before seeing ANY of the
series (I totally missed it last year), has a much more viable
ending, and some interesting dialogue that was not in the movie (the
book is based on the script, and in most places, 'is' the script).

                                /BEB
ARPA:   ECG.BEB@DEC-MARLBORO
ENET:   GIGI::BRENDAN

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 11:16:58 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: V "The Final Insult"

It seems that the inconsistent, illogical plot, mediocre acting,
extremely bad model/matte shots, and the scores of other defects in
this product of hollywood brain rot was very appealing to the
average american TV idiot. The ratings it recieved have justified
the beliefs of the writers and producers. These creatures are now
preparing a full scale assault on the minds of their victims.

They are making "V" into a series for the Fall!  (Source: One of the
morning network news shows)

Eris Deliver Us!

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 15:17:01-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Ribbing of American Government in "V"

Despite everything I still enjoyed V: The Final Battle.

Did anyone notice when all the ships had flown off but one, some
newscaster said that Washington was convening later that afternoon
to discuss it ?

I thought that was great and was on the floor laughing (my wife
thinks I have a weird sense of humor, too).

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201)
576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 12:10:58-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2f!5113jls @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: V the TV series this Fall

Well its official, "V" will be a regular TV series on fridays nights
at 8 pm on NBC.  This will put them up against the "Dukes of
Hazzards".  Actually I welcome this.  I would rather have a little
(bad?) SF than a three police car crash any day. (Please Uncle
Jessie, I can't take it any more.  Stay tuned next week when Bo and
Luke try to stop Boss Hogg from eating Hazzard County.  Finger
lick'n good.)

J Schantz - BCR

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 11:06:37-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "The Final Fiasco"--ambidextrous aliens?

 > As we all know the Space Nazi Lizards were left handed. Those
 > humans who were captured and converted (whatever that means),
 > started using their left hands as well. Please offer some
 > justification for ALL of the main characters using their RIGHT
 > hands to fire weapons. Further, Diana always fired first at the
 > victims shoulder. Not the left but invariably the RIGHT one!

I did not see "V" the first time around, but I did see the "Final
Fiasco" and read the novelization by A. C. Crispin.  Nowhere did I
see anything to indicate the ALIENS where left-handed--only those
HUMANS who were "converted" were left-handed (and only because they
were RIGHT-HANDED before the conversion).  According to the book,
during the conversion process, there was some sort of "right/left
brain reversal" (Holy Corpus Callosum, Batman!) which apparently got
the poor victims to thinking backwards (or is that sideways?).  The
handedness switch was an incidental development; or at most one
which merely indicated the completion of the process.  It seems the
writers of the screenplay are as bad at their neural science as
their biology, astrophysics, ecology, behavioral science,
immunology, etc., etc., ad infinitum.  I don't blame Crispin for
this; he just had the impossible job of making all these things
believable--an unenviable position!!

"There's no one in space....to hear you wretch"

                                SJBerry

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 84 09:58:46 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 4

                                 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                        Episode 4 - E.C. (The Extra Commercial)

(Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are on their way to
Netrothea. They have successfully escaped both the Flamers and the
Singles.)

Xaphod: How much longer till we reach Netrothea?
Martin: Too soon.
Rod:    Quiet!
Gillian:        I can't wait to get there!
Arnold Lint:    I'm just glad we're still in one piece.
Martin: It doesn't take much to make you happy, does it?

(All of a sudden, a blinding light fills the bridge of the Infinity.
When the light fades, a small, sickeningly adorable creature is
revealed. He is wearing a cap which says "I'm cute, buy me!")

Gillian:        What's that?
Xaphod: That's E.C. - the Extra Commercial!
Arnold Lint:    The what?
Rod:    The Extra Commercial. The most commercialized being since
  Santa Claus!

["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Santa Claus as a being
from Pluto who suffered severe brain damage when his space ship
crashed on earth. Every year the silly old twit tries to fly an old
sleigh and a flock of equally stupid reindeer back to Pluto.
Unfortunately, his reverse gravity modulator is not 100 percent so he
never quite gets out of earth's orbit. This is just as well as the
jerk lost all his deep space gear. Many people on earth have mistaken
the boxes of Kentucky Fried Chicken he carries on his unlikely space
craft (as rations for the trip to Pluto) for presents to be
distributed to children. In actuality, the only reason Fred Glarn
(his real name) ever climbs down chimneys is because he is totally
wasted on Selurian Brandy and he is merely looking for a likely spot
to sleep it off. (Why else would his nose always be red?).]

Xaphod: I've never met E.C. before, I always though he was just some
  massive advertising ploy.
Gillian:        (To E.C.) Hello, I'm Gillian.
E.C.:   (In a heavy New York - Jewish accent) Oy vey, vhat a trip.
  Say goylie, you're cute.
Xaphod: Huh?
E.C.:   Don't call me E.C., it's a meshugina name. My real name is
  Phil Moskowitz.
Arnold Lint:    Phil Moskowitz?
Phil:   Yes!, Vhat did you expect - Ricardo Montalban?
Rod:    You're the Extra Commercial?
Phil:   Don't laugh, my brother Saul owns Jordache Jeans!

["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" states that the Jordache Jeans
Company was actually a very clever marketing ploy by the makers of
Preparation H. It was their intention to boost the sales of their
rectal paraphenalia by inducing Americans to stuff their glutious
maxima into overly confined garments. The ploy did not succeed.]

Gillian:        What are you doing here?
Phil:   I'm on my vay to the Net Christmas Special. This year it's
  being hosted by Johnny Arson and Bud McMolson. Vhen you're a purely
  commercial item like me, you have to travel a lot.
Xaphod: But you're Jewish, what are you doing on a Christmas special?
Phil:   Believe me, it vasn't my idea. Some people out there actually
  think I'm Christ reborn. I knew a kid in Brooklyn name Jesus
  Martinez, but that's as close as I ever got. Anyvay, I'm hot right
  now in the market, so I go on any show they can get me on.
Arnold Lint:    That's unbelievable! How'd you get started in the
  business?
Phil:
  Vell, I tell ya'. One day I'm sitting there, eating a lox on
  rye, and some movie man comes up to me and says: "I'm gonna
  make you are star".  Next thing I know I'm in some nutso
  movie vith a bunch of little kids. I hate little kids. No
  sooner does the movie hit the screens than there are E.C.
  video games, clothing, silverware, contraceptives, books,
  posters, and kinky undergarments. You name it and I was on
  it. Then came the TV shows and all the publicity events - I
  actually cut the ribbon on the Jimmy Carter Memorial Brothel
  and Pro Shop! Then I had to appear at the opening of "Nukes
  are Us" - a store for budding nuclear powers.

Xaphod: Wow, thats wild.
Phil:   Vell, I gotta run.
Gillian:        Bye!

(The bright light once again fills the bridge, it fades and
E.C. is gone.)

Arnold Lint:    That was incredible!
Martin: If you say so!
Rod:    Quiet!
Xaphod: Well, we're here . . . Netrothea!
Martin: Oh joy and yummies.


        ******************** End Of Part 4 ********************

What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find on
Netrothea?  For the answer to this spine-tingling question .
. . Tune in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same
Net-channel. Also, be sure not to miss the BIG NET CHRISTMAS
SPECIAL starring Johnny Arson, Bud McMolson, Richard Nixon,
Barry Manilow, Richard Simmons, and Teddy the Wonder Lizard.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #92
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 May 84 2117-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #92
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:
    Films - Obsessive Movies & Faithful Films & High Speed Film,
    Television - V: The Final Battle,
    Miscellaneous - Thesis:  Telling Stories As They Used To Be &
            Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 May 84 04:07 EDT
From: Bergman.SoftArts@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Obsessive movies

Another obsessed film by Herzog is "The Burden of Dreams" about a
man obsessed with the need to make a film about a man who drags a
riverboat over a mountain...

There were *NO* special effects used in Fitzcarraldo.  They had to
drag *TWO* riverboats over the mountain because the first one
smashed on the way down...

Generally speaking, making a movie on location in the Amazon river
basin is guaranteed to be at least as difficult as whatever the
characters in the movie are trying to accomplish.

The boat that most of the action in Fitzcarraldo takes place on is
now a floating bar/bordello in Iquitos.

  --mike bergman
  bergman.softarts@mit-multics

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 May 1984 05:28:19-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Faithful films

All in all, once one ignores the introduction of the two World Wars
as background for the calamitous destruction that followed, the film
"The Time Machine" with Rod Taylor was reasonably faithful to Herb's
novel.  The film was made in 1960.

Dick Binder
UUCP: amorphous, will figure it out soon
ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 10:34:27-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: High Speed film.

American television is 30 frames/sec, not 40.  I find it hard
to believe that you can perceive flicker in movie theaters.

I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.
I will not flame.

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 1984 11:26:52 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: "V"

How come when the aliens take off their masks, their heads get
bigger?  One might think they were really humans in lizard masks.  I
guess people in the TV world don't notice such things.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 14 May 1984 10:44:58-PDT
From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Suford Lewis)
Subject: Thesis:  SF gets us back to telling stories as they used to
Subject: be

I also majored in English in college.  (After I discovered that I
was not cut out for physics.) I, however, had already been reading
SF for 11 or 12 years at that point, so perhaps I was "immunized"
against all the "Oh Doomy Gloom" stuff.  I also discovered that most
of what we call art and literature and assume are universal and
forever, are REALLY recent and relatively parochial.  The novel was
only invented a few hundred years ago.  "Literature" itself is a
minor branch of story-telling.

More importantly, the idea that contemporary reality was a suitable
subject for art was a unique invention that NO other culture has
made.  Look at any other time and place and what are the stories
about?  They may have historical significance, but what they are
ABOUT is the structure of the world and how that culture fits into
it.  They are REINTERPRETATIONS of events.  They are consciously
symbolic.  The phrases "word for word" and "what really happened"
don't mean the same thing in all cultures.  Even the idea of
history, as an UNreinterpreted, unelaborated account of events was
invented only once (by a Greek about 1200 years ago).  No other
culture considers REALISM an art form.  (I have a whole schtick
about REALISM and the absurdity of a literal interpretation of the
Bible, that I will leave out here.)

Art forms as diverse as Polynesian songs, Norse eddas, the epic of
Gilgamesh and the Chinese opera all talk about what it means to be a
hero, what the proper attitude is towards the universe (including
all its various spirits and forces), what is the proper way to act.
Usually there is also a healthy helping of "howcome WE are so
terrific" propaganda thrown in.

These old forms were performed rather than written.  They were fun
rather than "arty".  They EXPLAINED - they were sugar-coated with
plenty of action and dirty jokes - but they served the cultural
values of their people, religious and political.  There is evidence
that the bible comes from exactly this sort of tradition.
Shakespeare did this kind of chronicle - most people are familiar
with his picture of Richard the Third and don't even suspect that it
is mostly lies and pro-Tudor propaganda.

Depending on your cynicism, you could view all these old epics -
including virtually everything composed before 1600 and quite a bit
done after that - as inspired attempts to understand the world and
the place of human-kind in it, or as self-serving rationalization of
the status-quo by those who made their living by pleasing kings and
priests.

I tend not to be too cynical about them (any more than I am about
the political intent of George Lucas' Star Wars series) because all
these compositions had to be popular to survive.  They were chanted
or sung, then MUCH later, someone wrote them down.  The epic of
Beowulf was written down by a priest in the 8th century, but took
place in prechristian Denmark (around 500 years before).  In the
original it begins with the line:

                        HWAET! Wae Gar-Dena

Hwaet being the closest the transcriber could come to the long
shrill whistle that was the opening of a real recitation in the
midst of a boistrous feast.  A perfectly accurate translation of
"HWAET!" would be "HEY!  All you shut up and listen!"

Real art and literature are supposed to speak to EVERYBODY about the
nature of the human condition.  That's what it used to do.  It was
all intertwined with religion and politics and no one expected
anything different.  After all, how could one talk about being human
without talking about right and wrong, strength (what was once
called virtue) and weakness?  What do we have in our culture NOW
that does this kind of thing?

TV and movies.  Comics and popular music.  And the writing that
came out of the "pulp" genres of the 20's and 30's:  SF, detective
and romance.  There is a lot of junk of course, but Sturgeon's law
applies.  It is very unlikely that we have even the top 10% of the
old oral tradition, after all.

Pick up any adventure comic.  Good against evil.  Protagonist with
lots of problems, personal and otherwise, moral choices that have
to be made.  The comics, the TV soaps, all their writers are
conscious of the morality of what they are doing.  Bad guys have to
be unhappy, good guys have to keep on being good, even if they are
unhappy, too.  Random people whom the good guys meet, help them
because they are nicer than the bad guys.  There is a lot of
pro-democracy, pro-liberal propaganda about justice and law.  We
take it so much for granted, we hardly notice.  Even if a story
tells about injustice, the whole premise is that that is not the
way it is supposed to be.

You wouldn't believe the places that moral consciousness raises its
head.  I was flabbergasted to note that in "The Barbie Sticker Book"
sweet, feminine, fashionable Barbie is off to spray the seal pups
green!  (My daughter tells me the "her" Barbie is "in computers" and
goes to work and Ken takes care of the house.) There is a lot to
"popular media".  However banally it may be treated, the real
technological dilemmas are being examined among all the chaff of
cute robots and essentially magical devices.  After all, the
question really is: given magical powers, what is the right thing to
do?.

I agree with Duntemann the TWO CULTURES are being welded back
together again.  In a hundred years what will be the curiosity will
be why they ever split apart.  SF will be the obvious genre of all
"serious artists".  SF gets us back to the old epic scale.  The old
forms talked about all the universe that was known to the religious
and political perceptions of their cultures.  Now we need a form
that can talk about all the universe that is known to our religious,
political and scientific perceptions.

A lot of artists still talk in gibberish in the SF idiom, because
their perceptions do not reach very far and they are mostly afraid
of science.  I have a lot of hope that this will get better.  Not so
much that I think people will understand science much better, but
that the esthetics of epic demand a wholistic vision.  The
acknowledged masters of SF are not without passion.  Artists that I
respect are not without rationality.  Kipling and T.S.  Eliot had
their rationality and passion together, the rest of the "main
stream" will eventually get all their stuff together, too.

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 21:01:05 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 5

                                 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                         Episode 5 - Netrothea

(The Infinity is about to land on Netrothea. It is here that Xaphod
hopes to find a wealth of data to sell back to the Net for immense
profits.)

Rod:    Okay Martin, let's land.
Martin: Do we have to?
Xaphod: Yes!
Martin: Very well.
Gillian: Cheer up Martin, maybe you'll meet a nice lady android.
        Wouldn't that be nice.
Martin: Not really.
Arnold Lint:    How 'bout a nice male android?
Martin: That's right more abuse, aren't things bad enough already?
  Besides, how can an android be homosexual? Come to think of it, we
  can't be heterosexual either! How dreadful.
Rod: Quiet, we've landed.
Xaphod: How fantastic!
Gillian:        How wonderful.
Martin: How awful.
All:    Oh shut up!
Xaphod: Right, lets go!

(The door to the Infinity opens to reveal the landscape of
Netrothea.  It is indeed a strange landscape. The ground has the
consistency of a partially frozen waterbed covered with rich
Corinthian leather.  Flames spring forth from the soil in primordial
splendor, displaying brilliant patterns of red and green.  Off in
the distance, great orange hills reflect the light of the purple
sun. Polka-dotted polygram clouds move swiftly in uneven patterns
across the blue and grey striped sky. The hills seemed to have been
polished by the winds of time into huge reflective mounds which make
light dance on the valleys below.  Great forests of trees are off to
the right. The trees are only 4 feet tall, but 20 feet wide.
Stainless steel leaves hang from their bubble gum branches as pink
and black steam spews from their exposed roots. The air stings with
the scent of stale oysters and rotting, 3 day old, MacDougals
BigMuck's.  There is still no sign of civilization. The 12" CRT on
Xaphod's shoulder starts up: "This is David Halfmind. Tomorrow on
'Good Morning Idiots', we'll discuss herpes, the death
penalty, and aerobics at the office. We'll also be talking
with Yassir Arrafat about fashions for hot climates .  In
addition, we'll have some wonderful holiday recipes from the
Ayatollah Khomieni. Also, don't miss our special feature, 'A
trip to the Police Morgue', which we'll show right after the
weather report."]

Gillian:        Ugh, how awful.
Martin: Thats what I keep telling you.
Xaphod: Wow, what a great place for a vacation.
Arnold Lint:    Yah, if you enjoy misery.

["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Netrothea as being in the
top 10 places frequented by masochists. The wretched climate and
unfriendly people (who used to inhabit the place) made Netrothea
about as much fun as a spinal tap performed with a boat hook.
Netrothea's popularity waned as more and more places of vastly
inferior quality were either discovered or created. When these new,
modern, haunts-for-the-very-sick hit the market, old establishments
(like Netrothea) were doomed. The Netrothean government tried to
boost tourist trade by offering 'Club Mud' vacations to Netrothea's
famous 'Bile Bog', but it was to no avail.]

Martin: I can't even enjoy misery, I hate this place too.
Rod:    Quiet!
Xaphod: Lets go over there.

(Arnold Lint and crew make their way around the 20 foot wide trees,
past the 40 foot tall monolith, under the stopwatch draped over the
towel rack, and over the 10 foot diameter pimple. They finally
arrive at a door set into the ground. A stuffed penguin stands by
the door, on it's head is a button labeled "Ring for Verbal Abuse".
Etched into the door are the words:

        "X = 101010        Copyrighted by Deep Thought, so bug off".)

Arnold Lint:    One-Zero-One-Zero-One-Zero? What does it mean?
Xaphod: I don't know?
Gillian:        Should we press the button?
Rod:    Might as well.
Xaphod: (Trying to open the door) Yah, the door's locked anyway.
        Arnold, why don't YOU press the button.
Arnold Lint:    Thank you very much, I think not.
Martin: All right, I'll do it.

(Martin presses the button, the door flies open, and a man pops out
to great the Infinity crew. He is dressed in a business suit and
sports a "Stupidity is it's own reward" button on his jacket.)

Man:    Well, what do you want you smelly, squirming insignificant
        vermin?
Rod:    We wanted to get in the door . . . who are you?
Man:    Oh, I'm Flarg Brittashik, awfully nice to meet you.
Xaphod: (Confused) You're names' what?
Flarg:  FLARG BRITTASHIK, what are deaf as well as stupid? What a
        bunch of mindless, horrific oafs!
Arnold Lint:    Look you, just let us in the door and then push off!!
Flarg:  Why didn't you say so, follow me.

(Flarg descends down the stairs, the rest follow. The stairs form a
spiral, with a half-gainer twist, descending at an incredible rate to
the interior of Netrothea. The stairway is lit by the glow from
halibut fished out of the sea around the nearby nuclear power
plant.)

Rod:    Where are we going?
Flarg:  WHERE ARE WE GOING?! What a perfectly stupid question. We're
        obviously going down you sickening, malodorous pervert!
Gillian:        Do you realize that you're insulting us, and then the
        next moment being polite to us?
Flarg:  Oh, am I? I hadn't noticed.
Rod:    Well it's bloody anoying, mate.
Flarg:  Well, tough rocko's if I do, you wiper of other people's
        behinds!

[The act of wiping other peoples behinds, according to "The Hitch
Hikers Guide to the Net", was once considered a quite honorable
profession in certain areas of the Net. In fact, many of the old
regimes went so far as to have Royal Behind Wipers (or RBW's for
those readers used to TLA's - three letter acronyms)  whose sole task
it was to walk around behind his or her appointed monarch with toilet
paper in hand and perform the specified duty. Although this may seem
an unpopular job, the pay was quite good. As such, positions as Royal
'Pooper Scoopers' were often granted based on tournaments. These
tournaments resembled the earth's olympics except for two facets.
First, all events (actually, they only lasted for one event) were
fought to the death. And second, any event thought up had to envolve
the creative use of human excrement. ]

Martin:  You know, I would have thought any place as awful as this
  might have been amusing to me. But it's just as bad as the
  rest of the Net.  Good thing I'm just an android and don't
  have to ponder the reasons why the Net is as it is. I can
  just be content knowing that it can only get worse.

Xaphod: One more word out of you, and I'll go at your memory banks
        with a chainsaw!!!

        ******************** End Of Part 5 ********************

What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find in Netrothea?
Will Flarg Brittashik insult them to distraction? Or are the already
distracted? Will Xaphod end up doing a lumberjack-job on Martin's
memory banks? In the off chance of being told the answers to these,
and other, ad-libbed questions . . . Tune in next time . . .  same
Net-time . .  . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #93
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 May 84 2131-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #93
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:
       Books - Dewdney (3 msgs) & Kurland & SF Best Sellers,
       Films - Star Trek,
       Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs),
       Miscellaneous - Troubled Writer & Invention of "Sci-Fi" &
               How to Get Rich With a Time Machine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 May 84 13:54:36 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Underground in flatland

It would seem to me that worlds in the planiverse would be circles.
Underground would mean dug into the circle.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 1984 09:07-EST
From: David.Anderson@CMU-CS-G.ARPA
Subject: Re: underground in 2D?
To: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds@ucb-vax

Think of the entire Planiverse as being a plane (let's stick to
Euclidean geometry, although the book doesn't).  The stars and
planets within this universe are circular, and HAVE AN INTERIOR.
"Underground" means "beneath the surface" of the planet.  (You
probably were thinking that the inhabitants of the Planiverse move
freely in a plane, as in Flatland -- but here they are bound by
gravity (not inverse square, but simply inversely proportional) to
the surface of a planet.)

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 21:20:03-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!jim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: review of 'The Planiverse'

You must be joking, or TV has destroyed your mind.  Just ask the
nearest kindergarten student to draw you a picture of a house, then
ask her to put it underground.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 16 May 1984 12:29-PDT
Subject: Re: Kurland title request
From: jim@Rand-Unix

The Aaron Burr book by Michael Kurland is "The Whenabouts of Burr".
Great fun, alternate universes, hijacked Constitution (or is it?),
and so on.

Kurland also wrote "Tomorrow Knight", about future
gladiator/mercenary types, which is pretty good.

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 9:39:32-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF best sellers

I think the book by Marion Zimmer Bradley to make the best-sellers'
list was "The Mists of Avalon".

also, Anne McCaffrey's "The White Dragon" made the best-sellers'
list.

audrey ishizaki
HPlabs
Palo Alto, CA
415-857-5903

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 1984 11:31:37 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: S.T.II and transporter

If they could get the Genesis device into a transporter beam, they
could just send it into space at "maximum dispersion" of the atoms,
just as they did the Jack-the-Ripper creature in the episode "Wolf
in the Fold".  Once they get something into a beam, they can do lots
of things to it, like hold it in stasis for a while, or reassemble
it "wrong".  We had a little discussion a while back on transporter
capabilities/limitations.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 7:57:42-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt002 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

Much has been said about the enema that V gave to physics, how about
the screw that the writers get in on biology/anthropology?  To wit:
- In the first mini-series, Willy rescues a worker from a vat of
liquid nitrogen or the like.  I thought that lizard-likes lose big
when the temp drops. Likewise why did the resistance ever fight the
aliens during the day?  Lizards don't function well at night - which
is why our evolutionary ancestors prevailed.  - A human being
impregnated by another species? Did Russia have have satyr princes
as a result of Catherine the Great's fetishes? Come on now...  - The
bird and marsupial population of the Earth is so much greater than
that of homo-sapiens, why did the visitors bother with us? Obviously
they prefer birds and mice (Diana munches on budgies - not
ladyfingers/ The teen Visitor prefered mouse-ies to the wino, etc.)
more than humans.  Granted we might be easier to catch...  - The
Visitors dropping like flies from inhaling a bacteria? Most of their
skin was covered - why not just break out the bio-hazard gas-masks?
- Julie is pretty active for someone with a congenital heart defect.
We are told about this during her Disco brainwashing. Speaking of
which, why bother at all with brainwashing. Why not just mold a body
suit for a Visitor of correct height and build in the image of the
influential person?  - Did you catch a glimpse at Visitor writing?
Not english like at all...why did they use what looked like QWERTY
kybds? (Remember the PC that Diana was using to teach Elizabeth.
Looked like an IBM-PCjr...).

V: The Final Crusade - The father goes back to the Visitor's home
planet and converts them all. They come back wearing Jimmy Swaggart
masks........

   M Kenig ATT-IS    (last word on V for a while - I promise)
   Piscataway NJ  ..!abjnh!cbspt002

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 8:22:25-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!brl-vgr!wmartin @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Yet more on V

To beat a dead horse even further, we had a discussion here about
"V" regarding what the writers (I use the word loosely) COULD have
done with the [admittedly incredible] idea of the cross-racial
children, instead of the rather weak and sloppy ending they did come
up with.

My idea: Both children live. The little girl turns out to have all
the nasty and evil qualities of the aliens' psyches, is a quisling
turncoat traitor, and helps the Visitors in their malevolent
missions.  (The story would continue over years beyond the birth, of
course, and the children would grow at a more normal pace, not the
silly speeded-up situation that was used.) The reptile creature
remains nasty-looking, but has all the good qualities that can be
found in humans, a veritable saint in fact. He helps the rebels,
maybe has psychic powers, etc.

The idea of a colleague: Ignoring the reptile child for now, and
concentrating on the girl. She grows up to be a chameleon, able to
shift her shape into a reptile or human at will. She forms a bridge
between the species.

Either of those ideas would have improved the ending of "V"
immensely, and also provided ample opportunities for spinoffs ("I
Married A Reptile", "Father Sssss", etc.) and sequels ("The Return
Of V", "Son of V", "Beneath the Planet of the Vs", etc.).

Where do I go to pick up my check?

Will

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 12:13:26-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxj!presley @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Yet more on V (and sequels)

How about:

        I Was a Teenage Reptile
        National Lampoon's "V"acation
        "V" - the Ultimate Battle
        "V" - the Penultimate Battle       (prequels)
        "V" - the Antepenultimate Battle
        Monsanto's repTiles for Fashionable Floors

   Joe Presley (mhuxj!presley, ihnp4!j.presley)

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 10:01:29-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!ittvax!bunker!max @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Subtle Space Nazi Flaw

     One justification for the right-handed shooting in "V"--if
you're a decent shot, your handedness is determined by your eyes,
not how you write.  A good target instructor will determine which is
eye is dominant and have the student use that eye for aiming.  If
your right eye is dominant, you'll shoot right-handed, even if
you're a leftie otherwise (I'm a case in point.)
     Note that eye dominance is not a matter of which has clearer
vision, it has to do with how your brain interprets input.  A quick
test is to use a finger to point at some small distant object as
naturally as possible, then, without moving, look with only one eye,
then the other.  You will see that for one eye, the finger is smack
on top of the object, and for the other it is offset due to
parallax.  The first is your dominant.

            Max Hyre
            (Somewhere in the vicinity of decvax!ittvax!bunker!max)
~v
(^ Where, oh where has my vi gone?)

P.S.: Maybe shooting at right shoulders is just a case of
stupidity.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 15 May 84 11:25:14-PDT
From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Troubled writer

        I must respond to Jeff Duntemann's BRIDGE OVER TROUBLED
WRITERS message.  If it was facetious, then please excuse my
gullibility and allow me to make a fool of myself.  However, if it
was seriously intended, then I can't help myself.
        First, the statement:

        > About a hundred years ago, physics got sufficiently
        > complicated so that nonspecialists had a hard time
        > following it.  Human culture split in two at that point.
        > Science took one fork; *art* and *literature* took
        > another.

        Mankind's chief concern (after the immediate problems of
simple survival were worked out) has always been to try to explain
the universe.  Naturally, there have been (and are) as many
different ideas and theories as there are creative individuals, and
I'll wager most of those were complicated.  Name any domain of
activity (i.e. alchemy, herbal medicine, computers, motorcycles).
There will be specialists in each as well as nonspecialists.  I
happen to be a specialist in two of the examples and a nonspecialist
in the others.
        The second (I think, confused) point of that quotation is
that "physics", "art", "science", and "literature" are autonomous
entities existing apart from mankind.  They are not.  They are
better defined as ways of thinking or ways of interacting with the
world.  Nor are they mutually exclusive.  Granted, some people tend
to specialize in one to the exclusion of another, but there is
nothing inherent to cause this.
        Therefore, in considering the above two paragraphs, I think
it is clear that I disagree that "science (physics) split human
culture".  It is a double non sequitur.  Rather, scientific thinking
proved to be an effective tool which mankind could wield to bring
about change.
        Hence, the "split", if you wish to say there is one, comes
more from the power that scientific thinking permits.  As change
occurs (and accelerates), those nonspecialists in scientific
thinking have less and less voice in the change, and for good reason
feel that they are being overwhelmed by a technological monster.
The specialists, on the other hand, can continue to bring about
change, and can feel good about riding the tide.  "Standing on the
shoulders of giants" builds a comraderie and forms an institution as
solidly as stone blocks make cathedral walls.
        But the point I want to make (and which I believe Mr.
Duntemann overlooks) is that those people most able to bring about
change (the scientific specialists) are not necessarily the most
broadminded individuals, nor are they the ones most able to decide
just what changes ought to be made.  They are (by and large)
specialists in science (!), not in human worth; not in the nature of
the universe.
        The attitude I hear echoed daily is that science has brought
about new ways of looking at the world far and above those held by
people as little as 100 years ago (not to mention the primitives in
the 1800's).  The more I discover about the past, the more I believe
(strongly) that it just ain't so.  Don't simplify the past.  Don't
underrate the accomplishments or world views of those who are dead
and buried.  If you believe that mankind is capable of greatness,
then don't dismiss the fact we have realized it before.

        > As science fiction has matured these past forty years, it
        > has broadened to include a host of things Uncle Hugo would
        > have barfed at.  And yet is hasn't forgotten that science
        > and technology are the root shapers of any future we may
        > yet have.  The best of us are producing works of fiction
        > which are broader in their understanding of the current
        > state of humanity than all but the very best of mainstream
        > literature.  In another forty years mainstream will have
        > fallen into its own navel and disappeared, and I won't
        > miss it.  By then SF will have broadened to become all the
        > literature we need.

        Bunk.  Science and technology are not the salvation of our
future.  They are tools we can use to make a future, granted, as
well as they are the tools which might end it abruptly.  The manner
in which these tools are used for good or bad will come from
somewhere else -- from the most primitive areas of human feelings.
They will be used as we want to use them (or as the most powerful
among us choose).
        Science fiction has not matured in forty years, and
mainstream is not dead.  There are alot of feelings about "what is
this book doing calling itself SF?" which demonstrate a continual
movement to erect walls to keep SF "pure."  It's building a coffin
from the inside.  If you begin to look at the narrow categories
books are being placed in (mystery, romance, SF, fantasy), you will
realize that they are constricting creativity.  If you write a book
which does not fit in an established category, you might as well
save yourself the trouble and line your parakeet's cage with the
manuscript, because it just won't sell.
        Granted, the ideas we have seen generated in the last forty
years have been nothing less than phenomenal.  But there have always
been phenomenal ideas.  Maturity is measured not by the ideas, but
by how well they are materialized in the story and by how consistent
they become.  In my opinion, SF is rich in ideas and weak in the
ability to weave those ideas into something believable.
        The "fringe" SF books (those difficult to classify as
fantasy or SF and which generate alot of debates) are, to me, the
freshness that SF needs.
        So SF will not replace mainstream.  How can it?  Unless it
expands itself, it will stagnate.  If it does expand, then it will
change, and in so changing might blend with mainstream.  I, for one,
approve.  Let's not build genre ghettoes.
                                                ... Ron Cain
                                                (cain@sri-ai)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 May 84 21:01:58 edt
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: invention of "sci-fi"

   Kieran is unfortunately incorrect: Forrest Ackermann invented
"sci-fi" as a trendy term to apply to all forms of SF then existent,
without implying a judgment. (Of course, some of the things Forry
has been involved in strongly imply HE has no judgment.) Right now
there is still a substantial section of literate fandom that uses
"sci-fi" for anything in the field, and some of them use it
deliberately to annoy those whom they see as fannish elitists.
   Ackermann was also responsible for the names given most SF
conventions; he was the first to refer to the first two Worldcons
(in New York and Chicago) as "Nycon" and "Chicon" (I don't remember
offhand who labeled the third "Denvention").
                (Chip Hitchcock)
                ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
                usenet: ...{!decvax,!linus,!sri-unix}!cca!csin!cjh

War is peace    Freedom is slavery     Ketchup is a vegetable

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 1984 12:42-PDT
Subject: Re: how to make money with a time machine
From: Raymond Bates <RBATES at ISIB>

There are other ways of making money with a time machine.  Why
bother to "make" or "steal" a fortune when someone will give you
one?  My idea for making money with a time machine revolves around
getting a hold of the fortune that the Czars left in London banks
when they were in power.  If my memory serves me, the London banks
have a huge fortune waiting for someone in the Czar's family to
claim it.  Of course they were all killed during the Russian
Revolution.  You could use your time machine to plant evidence that
someone is a direct descendant of the Czars, then you could have
that person claim the fortune.  Or better yet, why not save
Anastasia from her execution, make her your ward, announce to the
world you have a time machine and claim your fortune.  You could get
this fortune with very minor manipulations of the past.  I am sure
that there are other fortunes are waiting.

/Ray

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #94
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 84 1237-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #94
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:
       Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Harrison & Hubbard & Spinrad &
               Zelazny & Sex in SF (2 msgs),
       Television - V: The Final Battle (2 msgs),
       Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 6

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley
Date: Fri, 18 May 84 00:38:32 edt
Subject: Startide Rising

For all ye other members of the faithful, the good news is that S.R.
won the nebula.  Let's see how it fares against The Good Doctor in
the Hugo competition.

Yours in procrastination (Algebra final?  What algebra final?)

Leslie

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 12:56:41-PDT (Thu)
From: teklabs!donch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: David Brin's STARTIDE RISING:  unanswered questions

My wife and I just finished and thoroughly enjoyed STARTIDE RISING
by David Brin. However, he left an enormous number of interesting
and crucial items unresolved.  For example, (not giving anything
away here) who was "Herbie" and the fleet that was found.  What
happened in the chapter following the end of the book (obviously
never written --yet-- but the story line begs for a resolution to
the situation at the ending)?

If Brin is on the net, or if anyone knows him, please suggest to him
a sequel to STARTIDE RISING.  He left himself enough meat for a good
one.

Don Chitwood  teklabs/donch
Imaging Research Labs
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 84 17:12:00-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

Sharon didn't claim that was the plot for _Bill the Galactic Zero_,
but for another book by Harrison.  Frankly, the plot sounded a lot
like Sheckley's _Dimension of Miracles_.  My opinion of _DoM_ is
very similar to her opinion on the unnamed book.  I think Sheckley's
short stories are better than his longer works.  I enjoyed _Bill_ in
a tepid sort of way, but won't reread it, which places it rather low
on my list. I did enjoy the Stainless Steel Rat stories, but can't
offhand recall any other works by Harrison that I really liked -
certainly not Deathworld.

Open Question: does the Deathworld series improve, or am I better
off cutting my losses after the first book?

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney
        ..!duke!uok!crigney

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 84 13:25:00-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Battle Field Earth - (nf)

        no thanks L. Ron Hubbard (the L. must stand for Ludicrous)
                                Rick Schieve

Actually, it stands for Lafayette.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 84 8:13:00-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Void Captain's Tale - (nf)

    This is a statement (story?) to defend "The Void Captain's Tale"
which, in my opinion, is its own best defense.  However since it
can't be here to speak for itself, I shall attempt the effort. "The
Void Captain's Tale" is a story about the ways and mores of a
possible future society.  To be more exact, this story is the
conflict of one man's changing philosophy of life versus that of his
society's.  This note/response is prompted by a very surprising
previous note giving warning to avoid this book.
    One person claimed the characters in this story to be shallow
and therefore uninteresting.  However I contend that the author
purposely made these characters to be shallow -- *not* a shallowness
of the ordinary sense but rather of a sense preprogrammed to create
an impression of a society full of decadence and meaningless social
ideals.
    Certainly the plot in this story is shallow!  (if you consider
it from an adventure book's point of view).  But when one looks at
the book as it was meant to be seen, one finds an incredibly
fascinating interplay of social ideas.  This is where the plot lies
-- on a level that some people might overlook.  Certainly there are
some who would find this style uninteresting, but I would hardly
call it weak.
    In reading this book, one is first amazed by the complex yet
talented style in which the author writes.  Then upon reflection the
meaning of the book settles in like the pleasing aftertaste of a
fine wine.  It is rare that one finds an author *capable* of
producing such works of intricate finery and I would warn any reader
not to read such a book too fast lest he lose track of the flow,
becoming confused or bored.  I will give this warning.  This book is
not for everybody.  There will be those who don't understand it and
those who have no patience for the written style.  But if you are
not limited to this catagory, find a copy of "The Void Captain's
Tale" and see what you are missing!

------------------------------

From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley
Date: Fri, 18 May 84 00:31:41 edt
Subject: Zelazny/Dilvish the Damned

For those who're interested, Zelazny's book THE CHANGING LAND takes
place directly after the stories in DILVISH THE DAMNED.  As with
DILVISH, it's not Zelazny's most major work, but it's still worth
reading.

Will Duquette,
Claremont CA

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 10:07:55-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: sf & sex

Somehow this reminds me very much of Kilgore trout's predicament -
For those of you who've read Vonnegut's God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater
and of course Breakfast of the Champions, and Farmer's Venus on the
Halfshell.  Kilgore - what a concept!!!

                                        Andrew
                                        ccivax!abh

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 9:21:32-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Blue Sky Fie

Although the story is not pornography, or racy, or anything like
that, it sort of is. The story being Totenbuch. I forget the author,
but it was in Again, Dangerous Visions. Well worth reading...

{astrovax,cornell,decvax,colby}!dartvax!karl  -- karl@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 1984 12:02-PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #90
From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow <Geoff @ SRI-CSL>

Two things with respect to "[V]irulence":

I conjecture the reason why `they' didn't get their water from the
rings of Saturn or the moons of Jupiter is that `they' hadn't
mastered the science of fluoridation, and hence, only our precious
bodily fluids would do.

Did anyone else entertain the thought that some of `them' might be
bisexual?  (or perhaps TRI?).  Various motions and hand swoopings
that Diana made over some of the females in the travesty looked to
me more like down to earth lust rather than culinary contemplation.

g

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 May 1984, 13:12-PDT
From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX
Subject: talk about being suprised at delivery time

I heard that there was a healthy zebra colt born to normal female
horse this morning.  Nothing bizarre, just a "first", the mare had
received an in-vivo implantation of a zebra embryo.  The point was
to help build up the population of this species of zebra, which is
endangered.

When I heard the report on the radio, I was reminded of the scene in
V where the young girl is rather surprised by what she has given
birth to.  Can you imagine how the poor horse felt?  "Oh, god, its
got stripes!  Take it away!  TAKE IT AWAY!!"
-c

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 21:02:00 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 6

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                                           Episode 6

(Flarg Brittashik is leading the crew of the Infinity down the
contorted stairway toward the interior of Netrothea.)

Martin: What an awful place, why do we bother to go on?
Xaphod: Quiet!
Flarg:  Actually, he's right. One of the things we Netrotheans proved
        was that the Net does not actually exist. It therefore
        follows that nothing we do really matters at all.
Arnold Lint:    What?
Flarg:  Is that all you can say you mindless, facial emation!
Rod:    What do you mean "we don't exist"?
Flarg:  Well, first we approached the problem assuming that we were a
        unique Net. There is none other like us in the entire domain
        of space, right?
Rod:    Right . . .
Flarg:  Well, if we are alone, how do we know we are? Without another
        Net to tell us we are, we may not be. We could just be the
        figments of our imaginations. How do you KNOW that that cat
        over there does in fact have 5 legs? You see it, but what's
        to say that it is actually there. Do you follow?

[********************************************************************
What Flarg Brittashik was pointing out was the famed five-legged cat
of Felix Major. The "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" indicates
that the myth of the five-legged cat was actually the result of the
heavy drinking done on Felix Major. You see, the female of the
species on Felix Major is covered with a blue slime which eventually
dissolves her mate if contact is maintained for too long. Because of
this, the men on Felix Major spend a lot of time in bars discussing
the differences between being Kosher and being a Cannibal. They tend
to drink an awful lot while discussing this topic. In their usually
intoxicated state, it is not difficult to mistake a cat for having a
fifth leg if viewed  side ways (or as having one eye if viewed from
the rear).  The "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" also points out
that the favorite drink on Felix Major is called the 'Intesto-rout'.
It is mixed as follows: Mix equal parts of gin, whiskey, rye, vodka,
rum, bourbon, and brandy. Add a cup of beer that has been left in a
gym locker for 3 days. To this add 5 Ex-Lax pills, 1 Valium, 2
No-Doz, and half a lid of grass. Mix it well in a Hamilton Blech
mixer. Now add a rotten egg, a decaying guppy, the spleen of 10
freshly killed frogs, and about a fistfull of goat brains. Again mix
it all up. To add a bit of zip to the mixture, add some Drain-O. Now
put the whole mixture under a dead horse for 37 hours. After it has
aged, filter it through the right kidney of a rabid llama and serve
it in a slightly soiled bed pan with an olive. Felix Major, quite
obviously developed quite a drunk driving problem. The solution
arrived at was simple and logical. They simply ground up offenders
and added them to 'Intest-rout's. Rumor has it that this extra
ingredient gave the drink the full bodied taste it had always been
lacking.
*******************************************************************]

Arnold Lint:    It's the old "Does a falling tree make a sound if
        there's no one there to hear" story, right?
Flarg:  Ooo! 'The falling tree makes no noise!' Aren't we the
        smart-behinded little cretans!
Xaphod: No, you idiot! It means . . . uh . . .
Flarg:  Actually, he's quite correct. We were not happy with finding
        out that we may be alone, so we then assumed that there was
        the possibility for an infinite number of varied Nets.
Gillian:        How nice.
Flarg:  Yes, well, it now became apparent that our one little Net was
        entirely insignificant in the scope of things in general.
        Mathematically, our percentage of existance amounted to 1
        over infinity, which is too small to even consider. Worse
        yet, since no other Net has ever contacted us, we may REALLY
        not exist after all. We could REALLY be mirages of the
        cosmic mind.
Xaphod: Wow, that's heavy!
Flarg:  Quiet, you drugged out excuse to evacuate my stomach on the
        table!
Rod:    Go on already!
Flarg:  Well, after taking many heavy drugs, we finally arrived at a
        solid decision.
Gillian:        What was it?
Flarg:  We agreed that our existence was so insignificant that
        anything we did really wouldn't matter. Hence our national
        slogan changed to "Who Cares". After all, in light of
        everything I've revealed to you, it must be perfectly
        obvious that it just doesn't matter what you do or say on
        the Net.
Arnold Lint:    Boy, I hope the rest of the Net doesn't hear that.
Flarg:  Oh, they did. That's why they attacked us and wiped out most
        of Netrothea. They just couldn't accept that all the fuss
        they were making really didn't amount to a damn thing.

[********************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the Netrotheans
were somewhat reknowned for exploding the faiths of others. Prior to
their non-existence fetish, they published a series of treatises
titled: "Who is this guy God anyway?", "Everything you always wanted
to know about the benevolent Lord, but were afraid to ask.", and
"Well, that's it for God." The Netrotheans had no fears of being
wiped out for their bizarre views. They believed that since what we
call 'death' is theoreticly infinite, and what we call 'life' is so
finite and miserable (what with everybody wearing digital watches and
coveting thy nieghbor's bits of green-dyed, processed plant matter),
we must surely have gotten things backwards. They therefore had no
problems dealing with the after-life.
*******************************************************************]

Xaphod: Wow, that's wild!
Flarg:  Now if you really want to blow your mind, consider this: If
        the Net doesn't really exist, do we exist? If we exist, what
        is the point of our existence? What is the medium of our
        communication if there really is no Net? What does it all
        mean?
Arnold Lint:    I don't know?
Rod:    That's obvious.
Martin: I'm kind of relieved that nothing really exists. It's sort of
        reassuring to know that all the misery I've endured on the
        Net really doesn't affect anything anyway.
Gillian:        Quiet Martin. Don't you know what this all means! It
        means that the constant day to day struggle to keep up with
        the Net is all pointless. Posting news is futile, reading
        news is futile, thinking about news is futile - because
        wherever the news came from or goes to, what ever thought up
        the news - none of it exists - and neither do we!
Rod: Yah, just think. We may have been posting news to a void!
Xaphod: Wait a minute! We get replies to our news!
Flarg:  We thought of that too. But consider the odds against our
        actual existence. They could be considered random at best.
        The odds of other beings also existing comes down to the
        same random probability.  It follows that any communication
        would have to be a random coincidence. Now, consider that
        the only communication we see is simply processed electrical
        impulses. Consider the quantity and speed of the impulses.
        The odds against them coming together in a logical
        combination are astronomicly bad. It follows, then, that
        what we mistake for communication with other beings (which
        don't exist either) are simply galactic burps in our faces,
        if we existed.
Xaphod: Wow!
Flarg:  Well, you wastes of space, I've got to go and kick my dog
        through a hedge.

(With that Flarg disappears in a burst of purple smoke. When the
smoke clears, only a can of "Putrina Rat Chow" remains.)

      ******************** End Of Part 6 ********************

What other fantastic things (which don't exist) will be revealed on
Netrothea (which also doesn't exist). To find out . . . Tune in next
time (a bizarre concept, time) . . .  same Net-time . . . same
Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #95
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 84 1314-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #95
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:
            Films - 2001 & Roll-Your-Own Films (4 msgs),
            Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 7

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 14:41:16-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Answer to Douglas Rain/2001 trivia question

        Well, I promised I'd post the answer to this, but it WAS too
easy; I received many correct answers, and no wrong ones. Yes,
Douglas Rain was the voice of HAL in 2001, and while I don't
actually know, I would second the guess of some of the respondents
that this is also to be his role in 2010.
        If I post any further trivia questions, I'll try to make
them tougher.
                                           Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA

Electric Avenue:              {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 May 84 10:42:58 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: roll your own sf films: "Starship Troopers"

"Starship Troopers" would make a very good film, excepting, of
course, what is bound to be a vastly unpopular political stance
certain to be dumped on at great length in the media.  There's a
built-in audience: in addition to all the sf fans, every Marine I've
ever met, including the officers, has read it.  I'd suggest John
Milius to direct.  He has a great sympathy for warrior castes.  The
fact that he did a mediocre job on "Conan" is offset by his splendid
direction of "The Wind and the Lion", one of the better adventure
films of the 70's.
                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 13:09:40-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tek
From: tronix!orca!mako!ariels @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: roll-your-own; a TV series

For a while now, I've been thinking of a series of books I'd like to
see done visually.  The more I think on it, the more I realize that
TV would be better suited for this book than the movies.  Or maybe a
TV movie pilot followed by a series.

The subject:  The Stainless Steel Rat

Slippery Jim DeGriz:  Dirk Benedict
Angelina:             ???  -- needs some VERY feminine-looking
                      actress.  How about Amy Irving?  Mary
                      Steenbergen(sp?)?
The chief (name of char?):  Burgess Meridith or Patrick McNee
Simon and Bolivar:   ??? -- wouldn't need them 'til later, anyway.

A sort of futuristic Maverick and It Takes A Thief combined.

Ariel Shattan
..!tektronix!mako!ariels

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 17:02:35-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Roll your own SF films...

I remember reading a short story once where the main characters were
watching a "classic" movie from the 1980s.  It was an Irwin Allen
production of "Gray Lensman" with Charlton Heston in the lead role.
I always thought that a pretty amusing idea....

Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
CSNet:  Spaf @ GATech           ARPA:   Spaf%GATech @ CSNet-Relay
uucp:   ...!{akgua,allegra,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf
        ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 11:09:05-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Amber, The Movie

<bugs should never try to walk the Pattern>

| Most of the major characters can be easily cast, though.  One big
| problem shows up with Benedict: how do you find someone who looks
| like Ichabod Crane, and at the same time looks like a military
| genius greater than Napoleon, Patton, and Von Klausewitz combined?

How about Klaus Kinski?

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 13:53:10-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: drying planets...

    Well, not to defend "V" or anything, but they probably decided
to get their water from Earth because it seemed like a much funner
place than Europa.  These guys obviously got off on facism, and
Europa provides few opportunities for same.
    Also, about the tongue -- it was clear throughout the show that
--somehow-- the aliens could make their tongues look like normal
human tongues, so I see no problem there.
    BUT!! It was also clear that the aliens required LIVE FOOD, (The
Earthlings must never see us eat!), so how did that one alien
commander manage to have dinner at Gooder's moms house all the time?
    There are too many other holes to go into now.

        Hey, if it's okay to use germ warfare on Space Facists,
why not on Earth Facists?

            (The above does not constitute a "cute signoff")

                                                    -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 5:30:28-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!intelca!proper!dave.e @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Book of "V" (Slight Spoiler)

  I also read the "V" book. The tv version was pretty faithful to it
for the first two episodes, then they butchered it for the last one.
That stupid ending that everyone has been complaining about was done
totally differently in the book (Elizabeth changed the bomb timing
delay in the ship's computer to an infinite loop. She used the
computers a lot in the book so, that made some sense.) I thought the
book was pretty decent considering that it had to go off of a ready
made plot. As far as the last episode was concerned, I think that
was too sensationalistic.

/Dave Edick/

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 84 15:31:14-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Space nazis and people who complain

  I wasn't going to say anything about this movie, but everyone else
has said something.  In fact, it looks like everyone else has
decided to put this movie down.
  I don't see why people thought it was such a bad movie.  I keep
reading messages from people who say this that or the other-thing
was wrong.  Why the left hand, why water and not ice, why eat
humans, etc.  Why do people have to question?  I watched the movie
because I wanted to see some entertainment, not because I wanted to
pick apart the science part of the SF.  If people want to pick apart
the science part of the movie, try explaining their spaceships and
why they didn't fall to the ground.  They were close enough, and
they weren't visibly using any fuel to keep aloft.

  Enough said, I think.  Let's not start picking at The Star Trek
movies next :-).

--johnc
  [decvax, linus, cornell, astrovax] !dartvax!johnc

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 13:21:51-PDT (Mon)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: drying planets...

> > Okay, what are some of those reasons?  Did everyone decide to
> > drink at the same time?  (Or is it flush?)
> Planet-wide drought, caused by imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen
> mixture of the planet's atmosphere.
> The same, caused by the planet moving out of orbit (closer to its
> sun).
> The same, caused by contamination of the planet's atmosphere
> (perhaps natural, perhaps not).

1] "imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen mixture" ????
    That would mean that there was either Too much Hydrogen, or Too
    much Oxygen.  Either one, would kill the entire planet long
    before lack of H2O became a problem.  Besides, just what is
    performing the separation into component elements?  Last I
    heard, it takes a lot of KCALs to persuade those little H's to
    break up from the O's.

2]  "Caused by the planet moving .. (closer to its sun)".
    That would not make the water go away.  It would vaporize it
    (and the planet too).

3]  "caused by cotamination of the planet's atmosphere"
    This could only mean that the planet has been producing reducing
    agents at a volume beyond compare.  Even then, the amount of
    water on the planet would be basically unchanged, and it
    certainly would be easier to just extract the water, than to
    travel to another planet to get some.

> > And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does
> > disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of
> > the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted
> > from any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to
> > hauling megamass of water over interstellar distances.
>
> That is assuming those type of planets exist in their solar
> system.  If they don't, they must come to other planets.  And if
> they are going to do that, they might as well get water in its
> natural form (even if they have to steal it) rather than go to
> Jupiter and do it the hard way.

1] There must be 100,000,000 balls of ice between here and the "home
    planet".  The ice contained in all, is no doubt considerably
    larger than the size of jupiter.
2] Grabbing a spaceship full of water, is not exactly going to solve
    the draught problems of an entire planet.
3] There is a story told by Asimov called "The Martian Way", which
    is about the sheer stupidity of people, and what happens when it
    is used by a demogouge.  The sheer stupid subject used by that
    demogouge?  Earth was running out of water (due to Martian use
    of it).

    Steven M.

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 12:41:59 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 7

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                                           Episode 7

(Xaphod, Gillian, Rod, Martin, and Arnold Lint continue their
descent into the heart of Netrothea. Flarg Brittashik has vanished
leaving only a tin of Putrina Rat Chow in his stead.)

Xaphod: Wow, that was far out!
Martin: If you say so.

(All of a sudden, the 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts up . . .
Star Wars type music kicks in . . .  Once upon a time, in a Net far,
far away, a band of steadfast hackers are fighting a gallant fight.
Vast swarms of nauseatingly repetitious messages are swamping their
news. They must retaliate.  This is their story . . . This is Zar
Wars. . . All the nodes beginning with the letter Z have banded
together, they are tired of always being last because the Net does
everything alphabeticly. They decide to stage a bold attack and make
their prescence known! to this end they devised a cunning scheme to
echo their news articles across the known Net several multiple times
each posting. In this way, they would be assured the attention they
feel they deserve. Net.landers are at this moment preparing for a
counterattack.  They are preparing massive Photocomplaint rays,
Gargantugripe bombs, and the ever deadly Superplasmicautor-
everberatingmegamoleculozapperdingledangledonglehyperintensified-
newandimprovedtimewarping complaint field generators. The last
device is one of the most feared (and hardest to pronounce) in the
known Net. Its power is so incredible that grown men have been known
to pull out their own livers rather than be subjected to its awesome
force.)

Rod:    Turn that off!
Xaphod: (Doing so) Yah, what a drag.
Arnold Lint:    Well, what do we do now.
Gillian:        I guess we keep going.
Martin: Do we have to?
All:    Yes!
Arnold Lint:    Sure could go for a cup of tea.
Xaphod: (Mumbling to himself) Stupid git!
Martin: Do you people really think this is necessary? Why can't you
        be satisfied with things as they are? Must you always try to
        change them - things can only get worse.
Xaphod: Look you morose metal moron, we're going on so shut up. Look
        upon this as an adventure into a whole new life.
Martin: Oh no, not another.

(The stairwell they are on leads into a huge room. So huge that it
defies commentary, only to say that it is, in fact, bloody huge. Off
in the distance there is a faint light. Arnold Lint and company head
for it. Two weeks later they arrive. the light is being emitted from
a strange kind of TTY. There is a plaque nearby which reads: "For
the answer to Life, the Net and Everything, type in 'Help'. For
dirty books or leather goods, ring bell for service. The Inter-Net
Megamind Exchange and Novelty Shoppe thanks you for your patronage
of our establishment".)

Arnold Lint:    Wow, the answer to Life, the Net, and Everything!
Xaphod: Who cares, lets get at the dirty books!
Rod:    Yah! I wonder if they have "Advanced Necrophilia for
        Scientists and Engineers" or "Yes, you can be a Toad-Sexer"?
Arnold Lint:    Dirty books, way out here?
Xaphod: Of course, depravity is the universal language.  Pornographic
        material is generally considered legal tender anywhere in
        the Net. I once lived for a whole year on Carnolea, just on
        trading my old "Gland" magazines and lubricants for
        supplies.
Gillian:        (Disgusted by the antics of Rod and Xaphod)Lets see
        the answer already - boy what sicko's.
Xaphod: OK, but then can we get some dirty books.

(Xaphod types in 'HELP' to the keyboard. Strange hummings and
buzzings start to eminate from the TTY. The cryptic characters
"101010" appear on the screen.)

[********************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the number 42,
when viewed in it's binary representation is in fact, quite
revealing.  There are many theories for what it actually means. The
adult magazine "Spurt" suggests that it is the perfect pattern for
an orgy, three males and three females being the supposed ideal. The
actual shape of the characters of '101010' seem to bear this out.
Also the fact that it does go 'boy-girl-boy . . . ' also helps. The
religious magazine 'Modern Moral Majority' (MMM) suggests that it is
in fact a message from God. The pattern indicates that two of the
same sex shall not have intercourse. The fact that there are equal
numbers of both male and female indicates that monogamous
relationships are the thing to do.  Also the fact that, when read,
left to right, the man always comes first, really gave them an edge
on the ERA (who really didn't listen anyway). Most other people
simply wondered why everyone thought the binary sequence had
anything at all to do with sex.
******************************************************************]

Rod:    That's it?
Xaphod: Apparently.
Gillian:        There must be more than just 42.
Martin: I certainly hope not.
Xaphod: Well, lets try to get some more info!

(Xaphod once again starts typing at the TTY. Characters flash and
buzzers buzz. The TTY finally gives up, it types out: "All right
already, if you really want the answers, take the service elevator
to the 127,366,247th floor, then follow the green line till it meets
the blue line till it meets the orange line till it becomes the
slightly off white line. Then climb out the window, jump off and ask
for Ralph.  He'll tell you the whole story. Now push off, I've had a
bad day. (To itself now) Where did I put those Valliums. Crap, I
need a drink . . .  ")

Xaphod: Oh well, what do we have to loose.
Martin: Not much really, just our lives. Of course, my life means so
        little already, I doubt I'd mind if it were lost.
Rod:    Quiet.

        ******************** End Of Part 7 ********************

What is the actual answer to Life, the Net, and Everything? Will
Arnold Lint get his tea? Will Xaphod get his dirty book? Will the
net sponsor a Pot-Luck-Orgy? For the answers to these and many other
pointless questions . . . Tune in next time . . .  same Net-time . .
. same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #96
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 84 1341-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #96
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 May 1984       Volume 9 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:
               Books - Bradley & Herbert & Kurland &
                       Libertarian SF (2 msgs),
               Films - Stalker and Solaris,
               Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - English & Death Star Weapons (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 84 23:55:00-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!jmike@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Preachy authors continued..... - (nf)

    Well I'm a male and I enjoyed Thendara House.  As I read the
book I took no offense, but then maybe that was because the author
wasn't talking about me.  Were you like one of the characters in the
book?  Is that why you took offense?  I though that Zimmer wrote an
excellent book portraying a clash of cultures.  Keep in mind that
she isn't necessarily writing about our culture (although I'm not so
sure it doesn't fit in many cases).  The plot was very well written
and really made me think about culture clashes and looking beyond
what most of us take for granted.  (and i'm not just refering to
male-female relationships...  i'm refering to thousands of pseudo
behaviors that society has created).  But I suppose that if you were
preoccupied with worrying about your male ego, you might have missed
that.
                                mike
                                        ...ctvax!uokvax!jmike

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 2:13:38-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix21 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Dune -- Frank Herbert Interview

The interview of Frank Herbert on the Larry King Show will be
repeated on Saturday night.  Those of you who are interested check
the radio listings in your area for the Larry King Show.  The Frank
Herbert interview will be during the first three hours.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 12:05:20-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Michael Kurland

For other works by Kurland, try

        "The Butterfly Kid"  probably long out of print,
        "The Unicorn Girl"   also probably long out of print,

and I recall at least three others but cannot think of the titles.

By the way, "Butterfly Kid" is by Chester VJ Anderson.  Both books
are, um, unusual explorations of alternate universes?!  If Anderson
actually exists outside of Kurland's head, (I hear he does) then
they have the most amazing ability to write in exactly the same
style!

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Thu 17 May 84 11:16:11-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: libertarian sf

There is a difference between literature as literature, and
literature for propaganda's sake, and the dividing line is probably
more of a 12 lane highway. I have no objection to an authors
opinions coming across in his fiction--far from it. But when a thin
plot, flat characters, etc. are used merely as a vehicle for
conveying politics, that is going a little too far.

Many works of art have been used to sway people's thinking or
communicate some moral, message, or other idea, but as I see it, the
quality of the art should come before the meaning of the message.
Practically, this will convey the author's point better than having
characters rant on for pages at a time on the benefits of some
social system, anyhow.

It's hard to define in general whether some work is "too" blatantly
propagandizing, but its fairly easy to tell in particular for any
specific book.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 84 10:40:45-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Libertarian Futurist Society

For more pointers to libertarian SF, I suggest membership in the
Libertarian Futurist Society.  $10/yr buys access to their small
(8-12 pages) but well constructed newsletter/fanzine, "Prometheus".

Mostly book reviews, but an occasional short article, such as
"Programming Fascism", a dig at computer educators who tout "correct
thinking" via structured languages.

These folks make the yearly "Prometheus Award" for best libertarian
SF.

subscriptions:
LFS, Ben Olson, Treasurer, RR 1, Box 114, Pocohontas, IA  50574
editorial offices:
LFS, 121 McKinley Street, Rochester, NY 14609

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 84 13:39:00-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Movie query: Stalker, Solaris - (nf)

*Stalker* -- Well, I remember going to see this one evening last
summer. I remember being incredibly bored throughout most of the
movie. But I also find that there are quite a few things about it
that still stand out in my mind. It's taken from the Strugatskys'
*Roadside Picnic*, which I haven't read, and I have the impression
that the book is involved with the aliens who stop by Earth for a
picnic, while the film focuses on how "The Zone" where the picnic
was held affects the lives of the people who live near it. There are
some neat things in the film, but there are also some losers.  There
are too many scenes that are held far, far too long. But I'm not
sorry I saw it, even though I couldn't wait for the thing to end
while I was watching it (if I'd ever walked out of a movie, it would
have been either *Stalker* or *Days of Heaven*). If you are prepared
for a long movie about "ordinary" people exploring alien leftovers,
and don't mind waiting a few days or weeks or months to appreciate
what you've seen, go see it.  If not, Indiana Jones and the Temple
of Doom will be out in a few months.
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 6:22:07-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!jeh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V

No one has mentioned another sickeningly obvious parallel to Star
Wars: The supreme commander arriving to visit Diana was exactly like
the emperor arriving to visit Vader.

                                Embarassed to admit I watched it,
                                Jim Heliotis
                                {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!jeh
                                rocksvax!ritcv!jeh
                                ritcv!jeh@Rochester

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 23:24:23-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V

Vader didn't off the Emperor, though.

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 1:38:31-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the - (nf)

        "...why didn't they just take the polar ice caps, which
        would take less room, if they kept it around 32 degrees F."

Omigod I don't believe this.  No wonder 'V' gets good ratings.

ICE TAKES UP MORE ROOM!  WHY DO YOU THINK IT FLOATS!!!

Goodness me, I must be perturbed.  I think this is what they call a
flame.

Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 7:53:27-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V, The Final Whatever

Sorry, but I can't help myself on this one:

> 2. Earth is 70% water, and almost all life on Earth is mostly
> comprised of water.  (we are, for example, as most primates I
> imagine would be, most mammals in general I suppose).  These
> beings could certainly use us for food, assuming there are enough
> of us around.  It wasn't as if they were going anywhere -- the
> world's population of humans and other life could keep their
> numbers alive for quite a few years.  When they finally exhaust
> the supply of life on Earth, they can just move off to another
> planet.
> Water is a more precious substance than we Earthlings care to
> think of it as.  Think about worldwide drought for a long period
> of time (one year, let's say) and the effects of it on world
> politics, health, the economy, etc.  (Think of Soylent Green,
> also.  We ate ourselves when it came down to it, why shouldn't a
> band of ruthless aliens do the same?)

        The Earth is not 70% water. 70% of the surface area of the
earth is covered by water, however.  Balls of water ice are floating
around our solar system; one need not go into the gravity well of
Earth to get it.
        I agree that other, better stories already exist in the same
vein as V: they could have just done Heinlein's Puppet Masters.

                                                Rick Coates
                                                tektronix!iddic!rickc

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 17:59:30-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Arrrgh!  VTV

Oh, gad.  Just another thing which the general public can point to
and say, "Look, Science Fiction is crap!".  I bet this is even worse
than *uck Rogers.

                Moriarty
                {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 1984 15:18:15-EDT
From: Michael.Mauldin@CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: English

        >From: Deryk Barker <DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
        >Subject: sex in SF

        >...nymphomaniac (and whatever the male equivalent is - I
        >apologise for the inherent sexism of parts of the English
        >language)...

   The male equivalent is ``satyriasis'', which admittedly sounds
like something Tegrin (R) would cure (and who knows, it just might,
though I've never heard any authoritative reports to that effect).
And you have no need to apologize for the inherent sexism of parts
of the English language--I seriously doubt that you are personally
responsible for them.

   For the etymological reader, the word is derived from the Greek
word ``satyros'' (eng. satyr), a lecherous woodland deity.  Usually
represented as a man with the legs, ears, and horns of a goat.  Pan
was a satyr.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 9:27:46-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon.

Yes, the strong nuclear force IS much greater than the
electromagnetic force, which is why nuclear weapons make such a big
noise.  I still contend that the Death Star weapon starts a nuclear
chain reaction at the target, but I don't know how you could do it.
Assuming that Alderan was made up of iron and silicates, etc, there
isn't much readily fissionable or fusionable material around.

I don't think a weapon that could neutralize the electrostatic
charges is feasible, but a proton beam would be just as effective.
Trouble is, the effect would be local.

                               Bob Fishell
                               ihnp4!ihu1g!fish

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 May 84 09:36 PDT
From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon (Niven version)

        Larry Niven's weapon which neutralizes the charges on
electrons certainly would be a gadget.  In response to Mark Vita's
question of the plausibility of this weapon, I would have to say it
cannot exist!  First, however, I must make a disclaimer.  Much to my
embarrasement, I have not read the story in which this weapon
appears, so I do not know exactly how the device was intended to
work.  From the descriptions, though, I have a few comments to make.
(Enough with blasphemy... lets get on with it).

Like so many other neat weapons it appears to violate conservation
of energy; that is, if the gun does nothing other than remove the
charges.  The first question one should ask themselves is: Where
does the energy which blows up the target come from?  One might
respond that the energy is locked up in the atomic structure to
start with and it is just a matter of releasing it.  If that is the
case then all we have to do is zap something and collect all of the
free electrons on some capacitor plates, restore the charge and let
it drive a motor.  Then let the charge leak back onto what we zapped
and start over.  This way we can generate all of the energy we want,
right? (Well...)

        Now, if we really want to save this device, we must require
that the gun supply all of the energy to drive this process.  Then
we are left with the nagging question, what powers the gun?  An
alternative explanation could be that we cannot restore the charge
to the electrons once they have been zapped.  Presumably the
phenomenon is a local one or we have just created a new type of
subatomic particle.  One that has the same mass as an electron but
no charge.  Needless to say, none has ever been observed so I think
it is reasonable to assume that this change is not permanent.

        Yet another possible explanation would be that the energy
that is released is partly used to restore the electronic charge.
If this is the case then all we have really done is created a fancy
total energy conversion process, which is not really a new concept.
But, after all this is science fiction.  We could also say that
conservation of energy will be violated as a result of this weapon.
This would not be the first time that a perfectly reasonable
conservation law has bitten the dust.  Just look at conservation of
parity, conservation of cp symmetry, etc.  Somehow though, I don't
think that conservation of energy will ever change.  After all, you
just can't get something for nothing.

        While we are on the topic of removing atomic
characteristics, we can do much better by considering other forces.
For example if we could neutralize the attractive force of gluons
which binds together the quarks in protons and neutrons (among other
particles), we could really get a lot of energy out.  This force is
vastly stronger than the coulomb force.  For example consider a
charmonium particle which consists of a charmed quark and a charmed
antiquark.  The exchange of gluons binds them together.  The force
is unusual in that it increases with distance rather than
decreasing.  As a result, the quarks vibrate at a very high
frequency.  In a distance on the order of 1e-15 meters they go from
approximately three quarters of the speed of light in one direction
to three quarters of the speed of light in the other direction.
This corresponds to a peak force of something like ten tons!  If we
could turn that binding force off we would get rather spectacular
fireworks!

        One last comment about Niven's gun.  If it is a handheld
weapon, it is not likely to be very safe for the operator.  This is
a problem with more mundane weapons such a x-ray or gamma ray laser
guns.  The operator is bombarded with intense doses of backscattered
hard x-rays.

        In any case, plausible or not, bizzare new weapons give us
some interesting topics for thought.
                                        Steve Trainoff

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 84 15:12:29-PDT (Wed)
From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon.

>  The plausibility is the same as for FTL, thiotimoline, and the
>  radio in Galileo's day - impossibly small *at this time*. Later
>  on, who knows?

    <sputter sputter foof>
        FTL is *IMPOSSIBLE*   DO YOU HEAR ME????
        YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE AT MAKING A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE
        THAN YOU HAVE AT MAKING AN FTL DRIVE!!!!
    <foof sputter sputter>

    I find it somewhat humorous (in a sick sort of way) that people
    who are supposed to be as intelligent as SF readers, can totally
    ignore the findings of Einstein -- without even bothering to
    read or understand them.

    What Einstein discovered, is a new (UNBREAKABLE) law: much like
    the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  And ALL THE FUTURE SCIENCE IN
    THE WORLD, will not change it, or allow one to get around it
    somehow.

    The "hyperspace" excuse, arises from an incomplete understanding
    of what Einstein discovered: you cannot "go around" the
    distance, because the very act of APPEARING at a place before
    light gets there, is exactly equivalent to going backwards
    through time.

    Steven Maurer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #97
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 84 1306-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #97
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:
        Books - An Author Enquiry Answered & Cthulu Mythos &
                Book Request,
        Films - Star Trek (2 msgs),
        Television - Questor & Spectre,
        Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 8

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 84 23:06:00-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Author Enquiries - (nf)

A friend of mine talked to Panshin at Chicon IV, where he was told
that the book was finished and would be published "soon." Of course,
that was a year and a half ago and the book hasn't appeared yet. It
may be that Panshin wants to publish the book himself, under his
Elephant Books imprint, and is waiting for a contract with Ace to
run out or something.
                                        Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 10:16:08 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Looking for Cthulhu Mythos stories

   I'm trying to find any and all Cthulhu Mythos stories.  I'd like
pointers to things I may have missed.  Here's a list of what I've
read:

Lovecraft:
        *EVERYTHING* including poems/revisions/collaborations/ghosted
        stuff except "Hist. & Chron. of Necronomicon"
Derleth:
        everything mentioned in Lin Carter's BEHIND THE MYTHOS
        except "Watchers out of Time"
Arkham House anthologies:
        DARK THINGS, TALES OF CTH. MYTHOS, OVER THE EDGE
Howard:
        everything mentioned in Carter except "Arkham" poem
Long:
        "Hounds of Tindalos", "Space Eaters" (where's the stuff abt.
        Chaugnar Faugn: "Horror from Hills", "When Chaugnar Wakes"?)
Smith:
        everything in Carter
Campbell:
        "Mine on Yuggoth" but nothing else from INHABITANT OF THE
        LAKE (know where I might find the whole thing?  It's out of
        print, unless Arkham rereleased it); DEMONS IN DARKNESS
Lumley:
        BURROWERS BENEATH, TRANSITION OF T. CROW, CLOCK OF DREAMS,
        SPAWN OF WINDS, HORROR AT OAKDEENE, CALLER OF BLACK, BENEATH
        MOORS, UNDER MOONS OF BOREA
Myers:
        nothing
Carter:
        LOVECRAFT: BEHIND THE MYTHOS, stories in WEIRD TALES
        paperbacks 1 & 4
Other anthologies:
        SPAWN OF CTH., DISCIPLES OF CTH., something Stuart Schiff
        published called H.P.L.

I know of, but don't have, Carter's DREAMS FROM RLYEH & Campbell's
NEW TALES OF CTH. MYTHOS.  I'm also looking for a Mythos
bibliography by one Edward/Edmund(?) Berglund.  What else is there?
I'll even take references to single stories in anthologies.  Is it
worth subscribing to/hunting up back issues of WHISPERS?

I don't have Net access except through SF-LOVERS Digest, so I can't
describe how to reach me, but if you can somehow send all responses
to me (JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA), I'll summarize for the Digest.

                                        Thanks for ANY help,
                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 1984  15:07 EDT (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Book Request

        I remember reading that a sequel to Master of the Five
Magics is out.  Anyone know the title?

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 1984 1745-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Why SPOCK had to die

Since the ENTERPRISE was in the Moutra Nebula (sp) (they went there
because their sheilds were broken, and sensors were almost out) They
couldn't use their shields (the same is true of Kahn's ship) so the
device could have been beamed aboard if they could get a fix on it
(SPOCK only noticed the power curve that it was producing). Also the
transporter had to be working (When they beamed Kirk and company up
from the GENESIS room they were told that that had used up all the
transporter power). They wouldn't be able to use the transporter
until the mains were back on line (then the warp engines could
recharge the power system). They didn't know or ask if beaming the
GENESIS device aboard the Enterprise would set it off (failsafe
device to keep unfriendlys from taking it apart and finding out how
it works! (remember that the scientists didn't trust the Federation
to use Genesis for peaceful purposes)) or if they could get rid of
it once they had it aboard (no more power for the transporter). They
could have blown the other ship up before Genesis could build up to
explode (but that may have set it off).

It seems to me that someone had to go and get the mains back online
and since Scotty was in a state of shock from the death of his
youngest nephew and the radiation that he had already gotten trying
to fix the ship. Since SPOCK was the only other person that we know
and care about who knows as much about the ship as Scotty (debatable
but SPOCK can fake it) and SPOCK has an ability to withstand more
radiation than the other known members of the Enterprise he was the
logical one to go in and try to get the mains online. I personally
don't think that SPOCK intended to die maybe some previously
forgotten piece of Vulcan anatomy would come into play (it still may
(remember the attack of the one celled life forms and the exposure
to intense light on some long forgotten episode)). That may be what
will happen. Maybe Genesis will just sort of help his Vulcan healing
along (when Vulcans heal themselves they go into that state of
pseudo-suspended animation until the last second and then they have
to be beaten up to get back to the real world - wouldn't it be nice
to see McCoy find the photon torpedo casket open it and start
smacking SPOCK in the face much to the dismay of the others in the
party and have SPOCK sit up and say Thank you Dr.  McCoy that is
quite sufficient. Kirk could then say 'SPOCK your not dead' .....

well I went on enough

        Warren Sander
        SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 1984  04:26 EDT (Sun)
From: "David A. Brown" <ZZZ.DAVID%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Transporting the Genesis machine in TWOK

   There's been a lot of discussion about beaming the Genesis device
into deep space as was done in 'The Changeling' and 'Wolf in the
Fold.'  Kirk suggested this in the movie when they first detected
the device aboard the Reliant, but David quickly said "You can't"
and that was the end of it.  I guess we'll have to take his word
that the transporter wouldn't have been useful on the device.
   Maybe it had something to go with the nature of Genesis - once
the device had been activated, the Genesis energy field had already
been set up (remember David noticed the Genesis wave pattern on a
video display when Khan had just started it up?)  The transporter
isn't very effective on pure energy, only matter.  Disrupting the
device itself (matter) after it had originally set up the Genesis
field (energy) could cause the energy that had already accumulated
to be released.

   I guess Spock really didn't die in vain...

  - David

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 84 13:59:00-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

The best part of Prototype was the way the Android learned.  He'd
see someone else carrying his books more comfortably, and adjust
his.  Or when the professor took his salad (he didn't eat) to make
it look like the android had eaten, the android took his fork and
placed it in the empty bowl.  Very little things, but they had
immense impact.  You could feel the android's attempts to understand
the confusing world of humans, especially with so little help from
the cold professor.  I'd really like to see this as a series, except
I doubt they could keep the quality up.  Lack of ideas may have also
killed Questor.

**************** SPOILER WARNING **********************************

I almost expected that the android faked his death, to throw off
pursuit.  It would have been an eerie scene, at the very last, to
show the burning garage, and the people watching it, and then pull
far back to a nearby rise, and show the Android (Michael?) watching
them.

Free at last.

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney
        ..!duke!uok!crigney

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 84 12:44:00-PST (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

Roddenberry's "Genesis" had two pilots, I believe the second is
called "Earth 2."

Does anyone know if Roddenberry ever filmed the pilot for the series
SPECTRE?  Scripts were once available from Lincoln Enterprises, and
I seem to recall seeing a movie called Spectre, with a very similar
plot, in the TV listings (not a channel my set recieved, blast it).
It concerned a group of people, agents (?), whatever that fought
Evil in the present era - I'm probably wrong on this summary, but
that was the flavor.  I do recall one of the agents was a weretiger.

Anyone remember this or have any more information?

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney
        ..!duke!uok!crigney

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 12:31:53 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 8

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                        Episode 8 - The Flamers Return

(The crew of the Infinity are proceeding to where the TTY directed
them. A place where they would find out more about the answer to
Life, the Net, and Everything.)

Arnold Lint:    This is sure a long trip.
        Martin: Why even bother to travel through the Net. All that
        happens is that you are bombarded with countless meaningless
        messages from Singularans about how they feel, and how they
        feel they should feel, and how others feel they should feel.
        You just get over that and some droning Flamer gets on about
        how drunk drivers should be allowed to retain their licenses
        only if they have oral sex with a diseased Yak, and they go
        on, and on, and on, not even realising that no one is really
        paying attention. Just when you finally get up nerve to post
        something, some jello-brained fanatic gets on your case
        about how you should spell things correctly and "we always
        do things proper where I work", and then someone else gets
        on trying to correlate the right to spell terribly with the
        constitution. And you never know how people will take
        things, either they're offended when they shouldn't be, or
        they take insults as just good conversation. And if you try
        to keep personalities out of what you post, some half wit
        from a fabled crappy state on the eastern sea-board comes
        along and starts getting personal with the insults, not
        realising what he is really getting into. And then some
        emaciated loony starts posting 150 line complaints about
        people posting 150 line articles, which they don't have to
        read anyway, but feel obliged to comment on simply because
        their minute egos need the boost of ragging on someone
        they've never met. And then some deranged cat-molester
        starts some boring discussion about the role of
        contraception in the development of the ballpoint pen, which
        goes on, and on, and you find that before long your 'n' key
        has lost the printing on it from overuse. And then people
        start sending endless messages about stopping the endless
        messages of the ongoing debate.  And then your brain bursts
        from frustration and even if you try to contribute something
        worthwhile to the Net, somone's always getting his rear out
        of joint about something . . .
Xaphod: Will you shut the @#$% up!
Martin: Sure, why not, you weren't really interested anyway.
Rod:    You're bloody right about that.

(All of a sudden, the hall they are travelling darkens. Twenty-two
Flamers beam into view. They are noticibly ticked off.)

Commander:      Look you, we told you to take your mindless drivel
        off the Net.
Number 1:       Yah!
Number 2:       Yah!
Rod:    Yah! . . . yah, yah, yah.
Xaphod: Since when.
Commander: Well, it was in a different time, we boarded your vessel,
        acted like the mindless, malodorous, sodomistic necrophiles
        that we are, did a lot of shouting, and told you to forever
        leave the Net.
Xaphod: Oh yeah, you must be the Flamers from Kekraphoon, you're the
        ones with the delusions of representing the consciousness
        of the Net.
Rod:    What a pack of twits, don't you know that the HHGttN has
        received almost overwhelming support from all over Netland?
Number 1:       We'll have to blast you.
Xaphod: You had your chance torch-head. You should have spoken up
        when we started. But now we have a loyal following.
Number 2:       But you are taking up valuable space.
Rod:    You must be kidding, with the vast quantities of stuff that
        are considerably longer than HHGttN that go out on the Net,
        and ignored totally, you have the narrow mindedness to use
        such a worn out argument.
Commander:      What do you expect!
Gillian:        Haven't you noticed people asking for missed episodes?
Number 1:       Well . . . we choose to ignore that.
Commander:      Now hold it, we want you OFF. You're upsetting the
        balance. Time was when we Flamers had the run of the Net.
        Those were the good old days, pouncing on innocent people
        posting messages for no reason at all. People cowering in
        their offices, wondering if we would cut them to ribbons for
        spelling errors. Now you've ruined it.  We just can't deal
        with . . . satire (Dinsdale?). Our weak attempts to
        counterattack fade quickly. No, you've got to GO, so we can
        retain our purity of essence and have no contamination of
        our precious bodily fluids.
Xaphod: PUSH OFF you stiff! You aren't the bloody consciousness of
        the Net, you aren't even conscious. If you don't like the
        stuff, nobody is forcing you to read it. What are you, one
        of those Moral Majority types. Yah, that's it, you don't
        like what people say, so you try to make sure that nobody
        hears it. That's censorship, mate.  Just because you don't
        appreciate or understand something, doesn't make everyone
        who does wrong.
Commander:      Uh, uh . . .
Rod:    Why don't we start throwing insults at the guy who sent the
        Flamers. We could kick around his childhood and stuff like
        that.
Xaphod: No, let's not go down to that level.
Gillian:        Yah, lets keep our values.

[The editors of "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" point out that
every attempt is made NOT to name names or point fingers. The HHGttN
is a compendium of commentary intended to help understand what goes
on in Netland, a place often billed as a "wheatfield of mental
disorders". The editors also point out that all episodes are
intended purely in the spirit of comedic-satire. Any insults to any
individual's religion, political views, or anything like that is
either purely accidental, or definitely intentional. The HHGttN
complaints department is open at all hours, but has so far only
received one (well intended) complaint, which was kindly accepted
and acknowledged to the sender. The editors remind all Netlanders
that there is no evil spell forcing them to read HHGttN (even though
it makes perfectly good sense to do so)!!! ]

(In a fit of frustration, the Flamers depart, muttering something
about "We shall return".)

Arnold Lint:    Well, that was exciting.
Xaphod: Now let's get going and find the answer.
Rod:    Yah, and the dirty books.
Gillian:        (Looking at a huge mural on what could be considered
        the wall) Look over there, it looks like a whole new Net!
Martin: Oh no, not another.

      ******************** End Of Part 8 ********************

Will the crew of the Infinity ever find the answer, or will they get
interupted again, to find out . . . Tune in next time . . .  same
Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #98
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 84 1345-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #98
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:
             Books - "Valentina",
             Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich & 
                     The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 9

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 84 5:12:00-PST (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog*  < Nuclear flames - (nf)

***** MINOR "VALENTINA" SPOILER *****

[Insert usual disclaimer about working from memory.]

I read "Valentina," and no, I'm not greatly disgusted/angered.

First, the lawyer - he was, indeed, a pretty slimy character.
Reminds me more of a court reporter than a lawyer :-). The thing
that bothered you about him was that he liked young girls, and our
two hackers were the only ones who noticed. Unless I'm badly
mistaken, this was a new twist to his live (we saw the start of it,
remember), and he happened to leave clues where our greasy-haired
hacker would find them.

Now, about the two hackers. You are correct, all hackers aren't that
like that. If they had been blacks/women/<choose your favorite
downtrodden group>, the story would have resulted in a long, loud,
righteous outcry. It would also have been as silly as yours was. The
current trend to display everybody in glowing colors stinks. Doing
so is spreading disinformation as badly as propagating stereotypes.
Worse yet, it handicaps an author.

Now, in this specific case, Celeste needed to be ugly (plot line,
ya'know).  I don't know about the flaw that would have kept her out
of grad school.  The two flaws in her character I found wouldn't
necessarily have been sufficient, especially if she is (as we are
told) the "best in the world" when it comes to hacking.

Gunboat is a slightly different case. I can believe a hacker working
for a law firm - especially one with the traits he displayed. I hope
he'd be thrown out of anything that calls itself a school in short
order; and not because of his lack of hygiene, but because he's
nearly as slimy a character as the lawyer. Or aren't people outside
of the Ivory Tower Universities allowed to have hacker-level
interest in computers, and (maybe even) skills to match? Given that
he's not in a school, he could wind up hacking for almost anybody.

Making gunboat the greasy-haired character he was wasn't needed, but
I think it was appropriate. It makes him that much easier to hate.
Besides which, the majority of the hackers I've run into lean more
towards gunboat than towards the three-piece suit flavored hackers
you (almost) never see.  Given that people like gunboat actually
exist (I've met them; I'm not to far away myself. Long hair,
slovenly dress, and addiction to junk food.  I do try and keep the
dirt to a minimum, though.), I think that Delaney and Stiegler were
justified in their characterization.

Personally, I was *much* more upset by the "backdoors" in
"WarGames." I don't do such things, and don't know of anybody who
ever let a product out the door that had backdoors (in house, yes.
But never to the public.)  "Valentina" gives the world a possibly
biased view of hackers. "WarGames" stooped to slander.

        "Tim! Dave! Cheese! Tim! Dave! Cheese!"
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 11:15:36-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

Well, I guess I will be the bearer of dismal news.

"V - The Final Battle" is, as expected, nothing less than a pilot
for NBC's

        NEW FALL SERIES    "V"  FRIDAY NIGHTS AT 8:00

YUCKA

Oh well.  Can't be much worse than Lost in Space.  Or can it?

Hutch <I used to LIKE watching tv!>

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 84 10:47:16-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

I'm one of those folks who just loves to come up with rational
explanations for irrational Sky-Fy, so...

Obviously, the Visitors are a high-technology people.  (Consider the
energy required to hold those motherships up...)  A reasonable
assumption is that they have been civilized for a long time, and
probably spent several hundred years between their Industrial Age
and the development of interstellar travel.  This is more than
enough time to mess up an ecology completely.

Suppose the Visitors, being exclusively carnivorous, managed to wipe
out all the non-domesticated edible species on their home planet in
that time.  After a few hundred years of inbreeding, it is possible
that the domestic species could suddenly lose viability.  This could
happen in any number of ways, but one likely problem is a plague to
which all the members of a given inbred species are susceptible (for
example, the Irish potato famine of the last century was caused by
the fact that most of the potatoes in Ireland were of the same
strain, and all succumbed at once to a potato blight).

Now we have a planet full of civilized, spacefaring carnivores who
find their food supply in deadly peril.  Perhaps they can hold out
for a while on the remaining species of edible domestic animals, but
they know that they're in trouble.  The cure to inbred, vulnerable
strains is fresh breeding stock.

So, off they go to other worlds for more breeding stock.  However,
the chance of the new stock being able to interbreed with the native
life is remote at best (OK, sometimes you get lucky, but you can't
count on it).  Therefore, the breeding population they bring back
has to be large enough to avoid genetic degradation for as long as
possible...  millions of individuals at least, possibly billions.
Those individuals also have to be as genetically diverse as
possible.

The strategy is obvious.  Large ships and many of them are sent to
each likely world.  Those ships take on native life from
geographically diverse areas to assure a genetic mix.  On civilized
worlds, they settle over cities to reduce the distance the native
life must be transported.

Why take an intelligent species?  I think it's because intelligent
food animals would require less effort to care for once they were
properly domesticated.  In our case, we simply proved too
intractible and the Visitors left quickly, to cover their losses.
Note that they did get away with 50 motherships full of uncounted
millions of frozen humans.

Why sneak about in plastic bodysuits?  I think it's just to make it
easier for them to gather as many of us as possible as easily as
possible.  After all, we don't slaughter cattle in the field and
drag them to the butcher; we make them walk to the slaughterhouse
under their own power.  Dragging a hostile native population in from
the hills is an expensive proposition, since they'll be fighting a
guerilla action on their own home territory.  If wearing an
uncomfortable bodymask and lying through your pointed teeth for a
few years is the alternative to decades of guerilla war, it starts
to look attractive.

Why steal water?  This one's simple.  Water is too easy to
manufacture from common elements for it to be in short supply for a
spacefaring race.  However, if your ships require water for fusion
fuel (or cooling, or whatever) and you're already going down into a
gravity well for supplies, there's no reason not to pick up a few
million gallons while you're there.  ("John, honey, would you mind
getting gas while you're going to Earth?  The tank was
three-quarters empty last night.")

However, not even I can explain the ending.  I think that
"Elizardbeth" (not original with me) reached across the universes
and through time and space to tap into the energy generated at the
end of "Star Trek - the Motionless Picture I"...

Another modern Just-So Story from

David D. Levine   (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)      [UUCP]
                  (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

(By the way, I can't resist mentioning that every time they showed
the aliens' headquarters in Los Angeles I thought of it as the "LA
convention and Visitors' bureau.")

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 84  17:04 EDT (Sat)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: Shoot 'em in the right shoulder!

    Has it not come into anyone else's mind, that perhaps, the RIGHT
side of the chest is where the "Visitor"'s HEARTS might be found?

    This would make some sense if the right side of the chest was
the most common target...

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 12:44:43-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: V: The Series worse than Lost in Space?

Gosh, we can get Robby the Robot out of the Universal props section,
and he can wander around detecting aliens and going "Danger!
Danger!"

And Robin reminded me a little of Dr. Smith (imagine Dr. Smith
pregnant with an alien!  I imagine it would mean that someone would
have to explain the birds and the bees to Will & Penny (and perhaps
Judy & Don)).

The Napoleon of Crime  Currently skulking around
                       UUCP:
         MORIARTY      {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!
                         uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty
                       ARPANET:
   AKA  -jwm-          moriarty@washington

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 84 9:13:12-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!hou3c!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxn!rlr @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf)

What about buying the newspaper from the day after the $20,000,000
lottery numbers are drawn by leaping into the future and leaping
back to buy the ticket?  How do we know this hasn't been done?

Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and
ME...
                                        Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 12:32:42 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 9

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                                           Episode 9
                             .-----------.
                             !  _     _  !
                           .-! /*     *\ !-.
                            \!     O     !/
                             !           !
                             !  .-----.  !
                             ! '       ` !
                             `-----------'
                                !!   !!

                                Martin

(The crew of the Infinity is continuing on their way to find the
explanation to Life, the Net, and Everything. It is a unbelievably
long trip. It is also notably nasty as Martin insists on droning on
and on about what a waste of time it all is and how it will probably
be quite depressing once the destination is reached and so on. Off in
the distance, they hear pounding type noises. The sounds appear to be
getting closer.)

Gillian:        What do you think it is?
Arnold Lint:    I don't know.
Zaphod: Maybe it's some new and amazingly interesting people.
Martin: I hope not.
Rod:    It's definitely getting closer, let's duck out of sight just
to be safe.

(Rod and company duck behind a nearby paperweight. The pounding
sounds can now be identified as the sounds of people running. Mixed
in is a metalic clinking sound and various shouts and yells. As the
sound gets closer, Arnold discerns that there is also a splatting
type of sound mixed in.)

Arnold Lint:    What is that?
Zaphod: Could be a Rigelian Megapede.
Rod:    Or a Richard Simmons show.

(The source of the sound now comes into view. The first thing seen is
a group of seven joggers, of various ages, sexes, and creeds, running
for all they are worth. Close on their heels are two blokes in a Land
Rover, they each wield a large club and a large can of beer. They are,
in fact, none other than Australian Joggering champions Bruce Karnage
and Bruce Bludletter.)

Bruce:  Here Bruce, get closer and I'll get another.
Bruce:  Right Bruce.
Bruce:  Naw, closer, Bruce.
Bruce:  Pass me a beer, Bruce.
Bruce:  Right Bruce.

(The Land Rover approaches the slowest jogger and Bruce pockets him
in the corner with a polo-like shot to the head, causing little bits
of brain to spurt out his ears.)

Bruce:  That was lovely, Bruce!
Bruce:  Thank you, Bruce.

(The joggers and the joggerers depart, the racket follows them, as
well it should.)

Rod:    That was great, what a shot.
Arnold Lint:    That was awful, how viscious and cruel.
Martin: I don't know, I almost enjoyed it.
Gillian:        What do they call that.
Zaphod: That's joggering, lovely sport.
Rod:    Let's go already.
Arnold Lint:    What a savage Net we live in.

[****************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" indicates that one of the most
savage races in the known Net are the Incindarans. These types make
the normal Flamers look like choir boys. These types liked to censor
shows like "8 is Enough" due to it's immoral plot lines. They even
went so far as to publish 'G' rated versions of the Old, New, and
Video Testaments (blessed be the Holy Box). Legend has it that their
system was kept off the Net for a long period of time. Their system
lords felt that this would be best in light of the tendencies of
those in the system. Things got so bad in Incindara that the system
lords decided they better find someone else to fight before they
wiped themselves out. So the Incindaran system was let onto the Net.
They were so busy fighting amongst each other that nobody noticed
the portal to the Net. An errant message found its way to Incindara
which made them all realise that they were not alone. They selected
their most learned scholar, Clyd Noeitall, to investigate the
wonderous Net. It was the first time Incindara had taken enough time
out from fighting to do anything. It was indeed a great day.  He and
his colleages than set out and talked with the Net for the first
time.  Unfortunately, they came in right in the middle of the
debates over Big Mac's. Upon seeing this, Clyd turned to his
colleague and said: "No, it's all got to go". Following this they
began to systematically torch almost every place in the Net. A long
war followed in which the Incindarans lost badly. The Net, being a
bit ticked off, decided on a punishment that suited the crime. They
took away all the 'n' keys on every terminal in Incindara.
Unfortunately, they forgot to make Incindara a read-only location,
allowing the Incindarans to verbally flame. The few Incindarans who
survived can still be found flaming at will about everything they
read (which is everything as there are no 'n' keys). The once proud
and feared Incindarans have been reduced to ranting about Burger
King, drunk drivers, sterilizing non-supporters of ERA, and so on.
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" warns all Net travellers that
when such types are encountered, the best course of action is to
abort the debate, as it is probably pointless anyway.
*****************************************************************]

      ******************** End Of Part 9 ********************

What is the explanation of Life, the Net, and Everything? How did
Bruce do? Did Bruce get his beer. Is Brooke Shields an Alien? To find
out . . . Tune in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same
Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #99
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 May 84 1430-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 May 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:
          Books - Dewdney (2 msgs) & Sex in SF (2 msgs) &
                  Computer Crime in SF & A Guide to Elvish,
          Miscellaneous - Theory of Relativity (2 msgs) & 
                  SF vs Mainstream Fiction & SF vs Sci-Fi & 
                  Planetary Destruction Plans & What is SF?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 May 84 15:01:30 EDT
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBN-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: Planiverse
Cc: vlsi@dec-marlboro.arpa

Hello,
      After flipping through Planiverse at a book store I couldn't
put it down.  The hook was the logistics of a 2D world and its
inhabitants.
      Overall I enjoyed it a lot, but I got mixed up a the end.
Either he didn't quite know how to end it or I just missed his
point.  Please would someone explain it to me.

                                   Thanks,
                                   craig
                                   3D address: cmacfarl@bbnccj

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 84 11:03:41-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: review of 'The Planiverse' - (nf)

When I think of 2-D, I think in the x-y plane, not the x-z plane.
In the x-y plane, there is no such thing as "down", "under", etc.
To take your analogy, ask a kindergarten to draw what lies behind
the house.  Can't be done in the x-z plane.

I always thought the traditional way of 2-D thinking was in the x-y
plane.  Mayhaps we have a "visitor" on the net :-)

                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 1984 1136 PDT
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Sex in SF

Edmund Cooper has published books circulating in the US.  I have his
"The Slaves of Heaven" and "A Far Sunset".  There is some free sex
just for a taste.

"Astra and Flondrix" was written by Seamus Cullen.

Wasting time is an important part of life...

Alvin

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 04:50:17 EDT
From: Liz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: sex in sf

Remember BUG JACK BARRON by Spinrad...if you consider it SF (and I
do), there is some early sex in sf.

If I remember rightly - Andrew Offut used to write porno for
Pinnacle, Club Car and Orpheus Books.  Some of the funniest porno I
have ever read.

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 15:07:52-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Pointer to survey of computer crime in SF

I have posted to net.mag the table of contents of Abacus magazine
for spring 1984.  Here, I would just like to point out the cover
story*, which is a survey of computer crime in fact and, for most of
the article, in SF.  20-30 different books and stories are listed
and many are discussed, including some of my favorites such as
Brunner's "The Shockwave Rider", and others I haven't heard of.

*The cover is a smashing (pun) picture of a knife blade entering a
CRT screen and drawing (green) blood and sparks.

Abacus costs $4.95 in the US.  I don't know how widely it is
available, because I subscribed from issue 1, and I haven't
regretted it.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 84 21:35:20-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!mhuxl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!smw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Fictional languages:  a guide to Elvish

Robert Schroeck of Princeton University, in response to my guide to
the Klingonese language in net.startrek, has compiled a guide to the
Elvish, from Tolkien's works.  With Bob's kind permission, now you
too can speak Quenya and Sindarin.

It's over 700 lines, so I've posted it to net.sources.  (People in
ARPA-land, that's the UNIX-SOURCES mailing list.)

Those of you interested in fictional languages, enjoy it!

Bob can be reached via BITNET at rms@puccuts.BITNET, by way of your
friendly BITNET gateway (probably ucbvax/Berkeley).  As for me,
I'm...

Stewart Wiener / Princeton Univ. EECS / princeton!tilt!smw
Graduating & seeking work...
can YOUR site use an entry-level Unix programmer?

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 84 12:39:24-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon.

> steven@qubix.UUCP (Steve Maurer) writes:
>
>    <sputter sputter foof>
>       FTL is *IMPOSSIBLE*   DO YOU HEAR ME????
>       YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE AT MAKING A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE
>       THAN YOU HAVE AT MAKING AN FTL DRIVE!!!!
>    <foof sputter sputter>

assert(flame).
        People who live in grass huts shouldn't throw flames!
        Before you flam at someone, make sure you know what
        you are talking about also.

>    I find it somewhat humorous (in a sick sort of way) that people
>    who are supposed to be as intelligent as SF readers, can
>    totally ignore the findings of Einstein -- without even
>    bothering to read or understand them.

I find it humorous (in a sad sort of way) that people who are
supposed to be as intelligent as USENET news readers ;-} can totally
ignore the findings of Einstein -- without even bothering to read or
understand them.

1) There is no intelligence prerequisite to reading SF or USENET
    news. People who read SF tend to be above average in
    intelligence, but that is not necessarily so.  Your flame is
    only an ad hominim attack against someone who was posting an
    article in fun anyway.

>    What Einstein discovered, is a new (UNBREAKABLE) law: much like
>    the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  And ALL THE FUTURE SCIENCE
>    IN THE WORLD, will not change it, or allow one to get around it
>    somehow.

Let's examine what Einstein "discovered":

Einstein didn't discover anything in his Theories of Relativity.
What he did was postulate a new physical world view based on a
couple of simple postulates.

1) The laws of physics are unchanged with respect to any observer in
    a inertial reference frame.

2)  The speed of light is measured as a constant for all observers.

First, we must realize that Relativity is only a very well
substantiated theory.  No one has and probably no one EVER will
prove it as true.  The second postulate above, is one of the laws of
physics mentioned in the first postulate.  However, that postulate
only comes from the observations of researchers in the late 19
century, not as a fact handed down by divine inspiration.  These
observers have only been able to make their measurments of the speed
of light in a non-inertial reference frame, where all bets are off
and the Special Theory of Relativity does not apply.  Thus, we don't
even know what physics is like in a TRUE inertial reference frame,
because we don't live in one, and no matter where we go, we will
NEVER find one.  (There is always an acceleration due to gravity
that makes the fram non-inertial, no matter where we go.)  So
Relativity can be called a very good guess.

>    The "hyperspace" excuse, arises from an incomplete
>    understanding of what Einstein discovered: you cannot "go
>    around" the distance, because the very act of APPEARING at a
>    place before light gets there, is exactly equivalent to going
>    backwards through time.

If you assume that travel by hyperspace is the process of leaving
normal space and re-entering elsewhere, then Relativity precludes
that form of travel, IF the theory is true.  (Actually I wonder
whether the theory holds up when one takes it to the limit with
singularities like infinite velocity.)

If hpyerspace travel is, instead, a method of changing the laws of
physics in the local area of space, (such as increasing the speed of
light in a limited area), then Relativity could hold and yet from an
outside observer, it would appear that one was travelling faster
than light.  (The observer would probably see you arrive before you
left, but that can happen even when you travel at less than the
speed of light because of acceleration.

retract(flame).

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not think that just because a new Theory
has been discovered that changed or disproved the old theories, then
it must be true.  We have only extended our knowledge of the
universe, we have not proved that there is nothing more to be
learned.

Jon Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab

P. S.  If you are wondering what my qualifications are, I have
       a B. A. in Engineering/Physics.  However, I would
       need many, many more years of study before I could fully
       appreciate the works of Einstein.  That stuff is hard to
       read!

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 84 18:26:45-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. - (nf)

    >What Einstein discovered, is a new (UNBREAKABLE) law: much like
    >the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  And ALL THE FUTURE SCIENCE
    >IN THE WORLD, will not change it, or allow one to get around it
    >somehow.

My, my, my! Such vehemence! I guess we have discovered someone that
does not know that it is the THEORY (hint: !law) of Relativity.

I thought that one of the basics of the scientific method was that
theories can (and must) be changed to fit newly discovered facts.
If something is discovered that contradict the THEORY, the theory
must be changed to cover the fact. ALL you can say is that the
theory appears to describe reality fairly well.

                                Thomas Ruschak
                                pur-ee!kechkayl
                                "Aiee! A toy robot!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 May 84 16:04:07 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Troubled writer

Since it seems that there are others out there who agree with Jeff
Duntemann's opinion that sf is destined to wipe out mainstream
fiction, I feel compelled to respond at more length.  You claim that
the best works of sf outstrip mainstream fiction.  Put up or shut
up.  What are these wondrous works, and why, with a handful of
exceptions, haven't I read them or heard of them in my fairly wide
experience in the sf field?  Why do I still find the best of recent
mainstream fiction better?

As far as Suford Lewis' points are concerned, he seems to be
laboring under the misconception that "mainstream" implies
"realism".  Not really true, according to a rigorous definition of
realism, and since this kind of definition is the one that Lewis
uses to dismiss mainstream fiction, I don't really think this is a
good argument.  Is "Ulysses" realistic?  How many of us sf fans are
ready to clasp it to our bosoms as part and parcel of science
fiction?  No one who has read his works would classify Faulkner as a
realistic author, but his works certainly aren't science fiction.
Remember, no one is trying to make out that James Michener and
Harold Robbins write better stuff than the best sf.  If you want to
make the kind of claim we've been hearing, you have to go up against
the big boys with the big talents.

By the way, novels were not invented in the 18th century, they were
just popularized then.  Petronius wrote a novel about contemporary
Rome called "The Satyricon" back in BC days.  Also, a great deal of
poetry, ancient and modern, deals with contemporary settings without
fantastic or mythic elements.  Since poetry was the major literary
form until the last couple of centuries, it doesn't pay to overlook
this.  It could also be argued that the reason that fantastic
elements play less part in modern literature is due to the fact that
many old beliefs have been demonstrated to be untrue, by science,
and that much of what we today call fantasy was viewed as plain
truth when written.

I see no evidence that sf is destined to either defeat or swallow
mainstream fiction.  The best sf of the last ten years is certainly
better than the best sf of the previous thirty, but I would
attribute that to a maturing of the form, not incipient conquest.
The fact that a few sf books (not nearly the best ones) are making
the best seller lists can be attributed to this maturing process and
to a current trend for fantasy and escapism.

Finally, both Lewis and Duntemann seem to be implying that
existentialism, which so offended them in college, is the philosophy
behind most recent fiction.  In truth, just about the only
existentialist still practicing is Samuel Beckett.  Existentialism
is now just a part of the cultural backdrop for modern literature,
and receives little more attention (in fact, probably less) than
Plato.
                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun 20 May 84 03:00:15-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
Subject: SF vs sci-fi.

Faannish nomenclature:

        Forry Ackermann did indeed invent the term 'sci-fi'
(sigh-fie, after hi-fi) to refer to ALL forms of science fiction. It
never really caught on among fandom, where the prefered term
remained 'SF' (ess-eff).  The mundane world seized upon sci-fi, and
its use or non-use remains a touchstone for dividing trufans from
mundanes, with the following exception:
        In one of the early editions of Issac Asimov's Science
Fiction Magazine, Issac, in discussing Star Wars and other 'media'
science fiction from sources outside the normal genre, proposed that
'sci-fi' should be reserved for SW, Battlestar Galaxia, and other
works of that ilk (V is a perfect example).  He also suggested that
it be pronounced 'skiffy', and you will occasionally hear it used in
this way at conventions.  You will also see some fans with buttons
reading 'End faanish elitism. Call it SCI-FI!'.
        Frankly, I prefer SF to sci-fi. I feel it sounds less silly,
and includes the more general term 'Speculative Fiction' (is that a
redundancy?).
        One other term which has fallen by the wayside is
'scientifiction' (aka stf, pronounced 'stiff'), which was invented
by Hugo Gernsback back in the 30's for one of his magazines. It is
now of only historical interest.

                                from the trivia files of:
                                Peter Trei
                                ARPA: oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20
                                x-ma-bell: h: 212-569-2371/0282
                                           w: 212-815-3711

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 84 12:13:22-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Planetary destruction plans

<This article contains no strontium-90>

One thing that may be being overlooked is the source of the
higher-numbered elements.  There is to my knowledge no reason for
the Big Bang to have produced anything more complicated than
hydrogen, directly.

I always understood that the reason for the existence of the other
elements was fusion, that is, big star forms, fuses all sorts of
things, expels them via one method or another (novas, etc) and then
they are available to coalesce into stars and such.

Of course, if I have completely got this wrong, then some
astrophysicist reader might be polite enough to explain the reason
why there is any Uranium left anywhere at all?

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 84 9:39:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!erlsmith @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "What is SF" - (nf)

while watching a recent interview on the arts channel on tv, issac
asimov might have given us the answer.

  "people who read science fiction are usually of an above average
   intelligence."

Q.E.D.

   -eric l. smith
   !ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #100
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 84 0958-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #100
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:
      Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs),
      Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich (2 msgs) & Literature &
                   The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 10

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 20 May 84 17:18:25 EDT
Subject: Plot Killer Mark I

All this talk about why V is bad is like chewing copies to see if
they taste as bad as they look.  Save your teeth.  They do.

The longer we look at the problems of FTL space travel, the harder
it seems to be, and therefore the more advanced technologically we
will have to be to achieve it.  So lately I've started looking
askance at plots which have someone or someones going beyond their
stellar system looking for an answer to a physical/biological
problem.

It seems to me that any race of creatures sufficiently
technologically advanced to cross interstellar distances have
sufficient technology to solve ANY physical/biological problem
without leaving the system.

In other words, if the Vizzards have energy and smarts enough to
come from the Vizzard planet here to get water, they can damned well
transmute their old gym socks (or anything else) into all the water
they need.  The energy implied by interstellar travel suggests
energy enough to build huge ecospheres out of whole cloth to replace
hopelessly polluted planetary ecosystems.

I call this Plot Killer #1, in the interest of avoiding having
someone call it Duntemann's Law.  I also have a (marginally related)
Plot Killer #2:

Given sufficient energy, nothing is so hard to synthesize that it
justifies crossing interstellar space to fetch.  In other words, the
plot of Norstrilia collapses because any race advanced enough to
build starships can take a sample of stroon (an immortality drug
which can be bought by anyone with the equivalent of a few
kilobucks) and duplicate it.  Insisting that stroon can be grown
only on Norstrilia is technologically absurd.

We can forgive Cordwainer Smith for this.  It is much harder to
forgive Herbert for hanging his entire, interminable Dune saga on a
geriatric spice which can be found only on Dune.  Horse cookies.  In
such a future, nothing can be found in Just One Place.  Anything
which starcrossing people want badly enough (and immortality drugs
certainly qualify) they will have, right out of their little
gene-splicer/transmutation labs.  Herbert claims to be a scientist;
he should have known better.

I am gradually coming to believe that it would be easier to make an
entire second Earth from scratch than to relieve population
pressures by interstellar colonization.  All yagatta do is grind up
Europa and sprinkle it on Mars...

Star travel is a bitch...

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 1984 1520 PDT
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: V : Invasion of the Space Nazis from Dry Space ; The Final
Subject: Blunder

I always thought ice takes up more volume than water, mole for mole.

Alvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 May 1984  21:13 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb@UCB-VAX.ARPA
Subject: Nonsense in V

>   Vader didn't off the Emperor, though.
Did we watch the same movie? I sure thought I saw Vader throw the
Emperor down a big shaft. Perhaps you mean to say that Vadar didn't
kill the Emperor for personal advancement.

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 84 16:30:39-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

<danger! danger!>

> Oh well.  Can't be much worse than Lost in Space.  Or can it?

It is ridiculous to compare Lost in Space and Invasion of the Space
Nazis.  Lost in Space was adventure/comedy and was not to be taken
seriously.  Obviously, V was meant to be taken seriously, as proof
of this, many netters have attempted to defend some of the
scientific aspects of the show. :-)

Speaking as a Lost in Space fan for life

                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 84 1:24:00-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf)

        As an example, take Patton near the end of the European
        conflict in WWII.  His push northward into Germany was
        halted due to a lack of fuel.  Since, in an historical
        sense, the Allies were destined to win anyway, it may not
        have made a great deal of difference who reached Berlin
        first.  Patton would have liked to do it himself and I'm
        sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere, he would have paid
        enough for it to make it worth one's while.

Joel has some good ideas, but I must disagree with this one.  What
would Patton pay for the fuel with?  And massive quantities of fuel
are required; I can't believe you could operate on that kind of a
scale without someone getting curious ("You want 5000 gallons of
Petrol delivered to your home?"  "Say, George, how are you moving
along when we're not allocating you any fuel?"  "Sure this is a
military surplus shop, but we just don't carry 105mm shells. What do
ya want them for, anyway?" all spring to mind.  Of course, you could
always steal it from someone else's supply dump; but for that matter
you could materialize inside a major bank's vault and make off with
their cash or gold - preferably just before a major fire or
disaster.)

Had Patton reached Berlin ahead of the Russians, the world could be
incredibly different - Germany would not have been partitioned, and
a united Germany on the western side would make a major difference
in the current European Balance.

Finding people who need a drink of water would be difficult, too.
And how much money are they likely to have on them?  (Or you could
let them die of thirst and *take* their money.)

The gold rush merchandising sounds good, but why not look up the
sites of the richest strikes, and then sell the information for a
half-share?  Then just have it deposited in some stable bank or
company stock, and return to your present to enjoy the results.

Ambushing a gold-laden Spanish expedition returning from the new
world would be profitable, but would require an extensive outlay for
the weapons and men to pull it off.  And is immoral besides, for
those who care about such matters.

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney
        ..!duke!uok!crigney

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 21 May 1984 06:22:33-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Brendan E. Boelke)
Subject: How to get rich using time travel

        Why be so extravagant?  Go down to your local state Lottery
commission and pick up a list of the winning numbers for the last
year or so.  Hop back with a few hundred bucks, and get lucky!
Sure, you'll have to pay tax, but then less suspicion is brought on
you.  Don't get greedy though, or they may just stop the lottery.
(For a one-time hit, win the New York Lotto the week before it got
to $18 Million).
                                /BEB

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 21 May 84 16:32:52 EDT
Subject: The literature of despair

Re Ron Cain's note in SFL V9#93; I shan't repeat it here...

Apparently what all that means is that you agree with me.  Mostly.
There are indeed two cultures, as you will find if you ever attempt
to speak hard physics or even math as simple as calculus 1 to an
(ordinary) English major.  Not only don't such people know physics
or math, there is a powerful statistical tendency for them to look
down their noses on people who do.  That is a mighty heavy rift, as
far as I'm concerned.

In general, scientific/engineering types look upon art and
literature as frosting on their cake.  Liberal arts types see it as
the whole cake.  What we got here is a failure to communicate.  And
educate.  And maybe something considerably worse.

Now then.  "Science fiction has not matured in forty years."  Wow.
Read your typical Doc Smith novel of the forties, and then come back
and read The Left Hand of Darkness or Startide'Rising or The Shadow
of the Torturer and tell me that again.  Or are these not SF in your
view?  They sure are in mine.

Mainstream is dead.  It is dead because it has despaired, and
despair is a death of the spirit, and literature is the mapping of
the spirit upon the language of the culture.  I read most of the
Great Writers (mainstream flavor) from Hemingway and Fitzgerald on
down through Camus and Grass and Bellow as simply giving up.
Nothing makes sense.  The gods are against us.  It's all pointless.
One by one we turn into rhinoceri.  Despair.

I will allow that any single person may justifiably despair, but
when a writer claims that despair is one facet or the major facet of
universal truth, I laugh a graveyard laugh and punt the book at the
wall.  SF hasn't despaired yet.  It will prevail.  It will in fact
merge (if you want to call it that) with mainstream by absorbing
what is left of the mainstream after the despairers have shrivelled
up and blown away.

SF is the literature of hope.  Serious studiers of SF don't put
artificial boundaries around it anymore.  I certainly don't.

From ten steps back, it looks like we agree.  Only our definitions
differ.  Thanks for the endorsement.

--Jeff Duntemann
duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 12:33:42 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 10

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                                          Episode 10

(Zaphod, Rod, Gillian, and Marvin are still on their way to find out
more about Life, the Net, and Everything. From off in the distance
they hear a hollow roar punctuated by gunfire. Before they have a
chance to grasp the situation, a huge battle tank screeches to a
halt in front of them. It is a fearsome device with great nasty
teeth painted on it. The cannon looks as if it could punch a hole
through a small planet. A hatch opens and a rightly uniformed man
steps out, crushing a passing cat under his boot.)

Cat:    (splat)
Rod:    Wh . . . who are you?
Roarin' George: I'm General Roarin' George Pahton. I heard there was
        some Singularans around here. Thought I'd do some American
        style joggering.
Zaphod: Oh yeah, they went that a way.
Arnold Lint:    Why does everyone pick on the Singularans? They only
        seek meaningful personal relationships with people they find
        special.
Roarin' George: Right, that's it, we're gonna have some order around
        here. No more of these damn cliches. From here on out, the
        following rules will apply: Anyone who uses the phrases
        'special', 'personal relationship', or 'meaningful
        relationship' WILL be fined twenty dollars for the first
        offense. Subsequent offenders will have their genitalia
        removed with a sharp rock. Anyone who corrects the spelling
        of another, WILL be fined 100 dollars. I won't stand for any
        namby-pamby intellectuals checking spelling when there's so
        much to do. Anyone caught agreeing with anything an
        oppositly gendered personnel says in an obvious attempt to
        make points, WILL have both kneecaps shattered with a
        ball-pean hammer. Likewise, anyone saying things which are
        right out of soap operas with the intentions mentioned above
        WILL also have his (or her) kneecaps shattered with a
        ball-pean hammer. Remember, this is the NET, it's tough out
        there.  Keep your emotions to yourself, do you want a bunch
        of commies to read that gooey crap? Why they'll think we're
        wimps, then they'll invade. They've started infiltrating
        already - ever been to one of the dating service places?
        They're all commies, draining away our precious bodily
        fluids. Now, get back to work!

(With that, he climbs back into the tank and drives off, casually
blowing a 4 foot hole in a nearby wall. Just then, the 12" CRT on
Zaphod's shoulder springs to life. On it is a man in a white suit
with a bible in one hand and a microphone in the other. He speaks:
"Friends. Why are we here today? We are here to hear the words -
(Amen) - to hear the holy words from the Holy Box - (Amen). Oh
blessed be the Holy Box, and it's disciples: Prophit Ronko, Prophit
K-Dul, and the Prophit Popeel - (Amen Amen Amen). Yes, they lead is
to immaculate spending. We here at the Church of the Divine Vision
believe in Johnny and Merv and Mike. TV is the reflection of life,
and life is a reflection of reality, therefore TV IS REALITY.  Yes,
Mrs. Olson may be a Nazi, but if you buy Foljers, you can bake just
like her. And Robert Yung may have multiple personalities and a
penchant for farm animals, but if you drink his coffee, you can
remain calm in the midst of a nuclear explosion . . . ")

Rod:    Shut that OFF.
Zaphod: Bloody religious fanatics.
Arnold Lint:    What an odd religion, worshipping a TV, seems hard to
        believe.
Martin: Not really, just another awful attempt to deal with this
        miserable Net. It's all a cop out. You can't
        understand something so you pretend that there is something
        else in control. It's all rubbish.
Gillian:        Quiet. Of course there's a supreme being.
Martin: If you say so, but if God didn't already exist, he would have
        to be invented.
Rod:    It's hopeless talking to him.

[*******************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" indicates that the members of
the Church of the Divine Vision are basically agnostics. They prefer
to believe what they see on the tube to what some half starved
people wrote about over 2000 years ago. They can't meet God, but if
the TV gives them trouble, they can always replace it. Their belief
led to the writing of the Video Testament, which is the gospel for
all believers in the Holy Box. Although it seems unlikely, the
Church of the Divine Vision was supposed to have formed some amazing
concepts as to how the Net exists.
*******************************************************************]

Gillian:        Let's go.
Martin: Do we have to?

(They all ignore Martin and press on. Two days later they arrive at
their destination. In front of them is a rather bug-eyed looking
lizard.)

Zaphod: Hey man, are you the one with the dope on Life, the Net, and
        Everything.
Lizard: Yes, I am Teddy the Wonder Lizard. I know all there is to
        know about Life, the Net, and Everything.
Rod:    Well, tell us!
Gillian:        Please do!
Teddy:  You won't like it.
Martin: (sarcasticly) Now that's a real surprise.
Teddy:  Are you sure you want to know?
Arnold Lint:    Yes, what is it, got to more than forty-bloody-two.
Teddy:  Yes, that was the answer we told the Net. We figured that the
        real answer was so awful, they'd rather get something vague
        and argue about it forever.
Zaphod: Well, out with it.
Teddy:  It's all here, in the Video Testament!

(He hands Zaphod an old looking book, pops about a dozen valiums, and
then switches on a nearby TV set. He is watching 'Real People'.)

Zaphod: Well, that should finish him off.
Arnold Lint:    The drugs?
Rod:    No, 'Real People', lowers the IQ so much that the brain just
        packs it in and you die.
Gillian:        Find the answer already!
Zaphod: Okay, now lets see . . .

      ******************** End Of Part 10 ********************

What is the answer to Life, the Net, and Everything? Why are we
here?  Are we here? And why is it that vampires never attack Jewish
nieghborhoods? For the answers to some of these questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #101
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 84 1031-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #101
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:
      Books - Kurland & The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction &
              Cthulhu Mythos,
      Films - Roll-Your-Own Films (2 msgs) & Questions for Directors &
              Film News & Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars,
      Television - Spectre,
      Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 11

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1984 22:45-EST
From: Robert.Stockton@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA
Subject: Re: Michael Kurland

I have long been attempting to acquire a complete collection of
Kurland myself.  While I have not succeeded, I believe I can at
least provide a fairly complete list of his books.

These include:
    Tomorrow Knight
    The Whenabouts of Burr
    Transmission Error
    Psi-hunt
    Pluribus
    The Unicorn Girl
  War Incorporated:
    Mission: Third Force
    Mission: Tank War
    A Plague of Spies

"The Unicorn Girl" is, interestingly enough, the second book in a
trilogy, with the first being "The Butterfly Kid" by Chester
Anderson and the third being (something like) "The Probability Pad"
by (probably) Tom Waters.

In addition he has collaborated with Chester Anderson to produce
"Ten Years to Doomsday", and expanded an outline by H. Beam Piper to
produce "First Cycle".

"The Unicorn Girl" includes the following Author's Biography:

  Mister Kurland is a thin, tense young man with wire-rimmed
  glasses and the perpetually frightened look of a rabbit with an
  invitation to lunch at the Lion's Club.  He has a Doctorate in
  Ecdysiology, and his first published work was his thesis:
  Cultural Patterns of Migrant Brooklyn Apple-Pickers With
  Reference to the Prevalence, Utility, Adaptability and Social
  Standing of Ecdysiasts Within the Group-Standard Milieu.  It was
  published as in illustrated children's book under the title She
  Stripped for Cider, and went into three printings.

  He has worked as a wire-stapler, a barrel-staver, a
  window-washer, a herring-kipperer, a Scotch-tippler and a
  peck-of-pickled-peppers-picker.  This diversified background has
  given him the wealth of experience which has so far proved
  totally useless for writing science fiction.

  He is now living and working on a houseboat on the Dhama river in
  Northern Thibeth, but will soon be moving back to the United
  States as he finds it hard to concentrate during the six hours a
  day in which the boat is submerged.  His present project is a
  dictionary which will conform to his unique ideas regarding
  English spelling.
                                        Robert Stockton
                                        rgs@CMU-CS-SPICE

By the way, I will be very interested in any information leading to
the capture or sale (to me) of the above-mentioned "Probability
Pad".

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 16:34:21-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction

   Does anyone out there know if a second edition of "The
Encyclopedia of Science Fiction" (edited by Peter Nichols, et al.)
is either out or being planned?  This book is by far the most
complete and useful SF document that I've seen, but since it was
published in 1977, it is rapidly becoming rather dated.  Anybody
have any clues?
                       Mark Vita
                       Dartmouth College
                       {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 May 84 17:17 MST
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Cthulhu Mythos

One book I didn't see on your list was "Mysteries of the Worm", by
Robert Bloch.

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84  21:21 EDT (Mon)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: roll-your-own-films

Hmn.  What about letting Spielberg make a few "Stainless Steel Rat"
films?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 11:58:55-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in films)

I would say the best would have to be doing an on-screen creation of
Poul Anderson's Dominick Flandry.  it would be entertaining, easy to
identify with, and fun!

Walt Pesch
AT&T Technologies
ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 17:58:21-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!uw-june!m
From: oriarty @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Ask Some directors of Summer SF & Fantasy films a question!

in-depth questions!

The directors and movies I'll be seeing are:

JOE DANTE               GREMLINS                June 1st

        Dante's previous work has included "The Howling", a
wonderful spoof on werewolf movies (one of my favorites), and the
"It's a Good Life" episode of the Twilight Zone movie.

JOHN SAYLES             THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET  May 26th

        Sayles was the writer/director for "Return of the Secaucus
Seven", "Lianna", and "Baby, It's You", and the screenwriter for
"The Howling", "Piranha", and "Alligator" (he can really do great
satires when he feels like it); he is also a well-known author (I've
seen him in the New Yorker several times, so I guess that fills the
bill).

AARON LIPSTADT          CITY LIMITS                     June 2nd

        Director of "Android" (in fact, almost everyone involved in
"Android" is involved in "City Limits").


A major note: I will be competing with other people for Q/A time.
Also, I can decide not to ask a question on the grounds that I'd be
embarrassed to ask it.  Two things readily come to mind: questions
about the director's personal life, and questions whose answers are
readily available in books.  Examples are "Have you divorced
Elizabeth Taylor?", "What's Steven Spielberg REALLY like?","Who
played the mutated dwarf in the space meanies scene...?"  Perhaps
good questions would be in the vein of "How do YOU handle science
fiction, etc.?" as all three of these are fantasy and sci-fi films.
I'll reply to your letters about question status, etc.  I'll report
other people's questions, too, if they are interesting.

Well, I look forward to hearing from you... thanks in advance.

                "He's everywhere! He's everywhere!"

                        Moriarty (aka Jeff Meyer)

UUCP: {ihnp4,cornell,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty
ARPANET:    moriarty@washington

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 22:55:13-EDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!alberta!syali @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: film news

>From:            Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
>
>"Supergirl" has been delayed in release until Christmas.  Wolfgang
>Petersen (directed "Das Boot" and the upcoming "The Neverending
>Story") has replaced the previous director, whose name escapes me
>but was not familiar, on a science fiction film called "Enemy
>Mine".  I've never heard of it before.  It's currently shooting in
>Iceland, and it's budget is in the $15-$20 million range, and
>rising.
>                                       Peter Reiher
>                                       reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

           There's a short story by Barry B. Longyear (sp?), which I
        liked rather a lot, called "Enemy Mine". I have the vague
        impression that it won a Hugo or Nebula (or both) a couple
        of years ago. If anybody out there knows if this film is
        based on the same story could they inform the world
        (particularly myself, I really liked that story!). Any info
        on release dates etc. would also be nice...

                        Cheers,
                                Sy Ali (...!alberta!syali)

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 84 20:47:00-EDT (Wed)
From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!smw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in f

The GREAT lines from Greg Skinner's article:

>Organization: MIT Lusers and Hosers Inc., Cambridge, Ma.
        (cute, and users of 'notes' missed it)
>Joy is in the ears that hear.
        (another Saltheart Foamfollower fan!)

The ones that inspire the followup:

>Spock is hardly an alien -- I tend to think of him more as a
>foreigner with different customs.

Spock IS an alien.  It's thrown in our faces early and often; find
humans who can develop the "customs" of telepathy, pon farr and plak
tow (the physical problems during mating season), and green
T-Negative blood.  Listen to McCoy complain about Spock's alien
physiology, as well as his philosophy.

Perhaps it's a sign of just how well he's been characterized that
you fail to see him as alien, an outsider.  You know him well enough
to count him as one of your own sociological group, though he would
insist on not being included there.  (Happened often in the closing
scenes to the episodes.)
          Stewart Wiener / Princeton Univ. EECS / princeton!tilt!smw
Graduating & seeking work...
can YOUR site use an entry-level Unix programmer?

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 84 10:15:42-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in films)

Spock is hardly an alien -- I tend to think of him more as a
foreigner with different customs.

Perhaps Maia from Space 1999?
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 May 84 21:32 EDT
From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: V and assorted Star Wars nonsense

(1) Vader *did* kill the Emperor, though not quite so elegantly as
with a gun.

(2) Hypothesis: The Death Star takes advantage of non-linear effects
at extremely high energy densities that allow it to violate the
First Law of Thermodynamics.  Consider: (a) the Death Star fires six
secondary energy beams into a point in space, where they *vanish*
momentarily before the primary and *visibly stronger* beam appears.
(b) The energy density necessary to have visible light-beams in hard
vacuum is enormous, or at least many orders of magnitude beyond
anything we can generate or observe.  (c) How do we know what kind
of hell breaks loose at that rarified end of things?  >>>>
Conclusion: The Death Star is a perpetual-motion motor.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 May 84 11:33 PDT
From: Harris Shiffman <Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Spectre

Yes, Gene Roddenberry's Spectre was done as a pilot.  Robert Culp
starred.  As I recall, it was pretty strange stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 09:46:23 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 11

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                   Episode 11 - Life, The Net, and Everything Part 1

(Xaphod, Rod, Gillian, and Arnold Lint have just received the 'Video
Testament' - a scripture said to contain the answer to Life, the
Net, and Everything.)

Rod:    Well, go on, read it.
Arnold Lint:    Do you think we should?
Xaphod: Yah, why not.
Martin: I can think of a few reasons.
Gillian: Quiet, we're going to find out what it all means.
        Aren't you the least bit excited.
Martin: (droning sarcasticly) Oh yes, I can hardly contain myself.
Xaphod: Never mind him, lets read this amazingly amazing book.

(They open the book and it speaks to them.)

Book:   Hark, who goest there.
Rod:    Uh, who are you?
Book:   I . . . am the Video Testament. The compendium of all
        knowledge and smart stuff from the mythical age of Kubla
        Konthemasus.  You may call me . . . Ralph.
[******************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" has this to say about the
mythical ruler Kubla Konthemasus: He was reported to be from Austria
or Germany. He was supposed to be short and have a funny little
mustache. He was supposed to have died in 1945 and then be reborn in
Argentina. His followers looked upon him as a sort of Messiah, who
lead them to the land of Silk and Money. All of this is, of course,
purely hypothetical; as were Konthemasus' friends Herman (Hermie)
McGoering, and Crazy Joe Stalinson.
******************************************************************]
Xaphod: Ralph?
Ralph:  Well, what do you expect?
Rod:    Well, not Ralph.
Gillian: Can you tell us . . .
Ralph:  The answer to Life, the Net, and Everything.
Gillian: . . . why yes.
Arnold Lint:    That's amazing.
Xaphod: To you it would be.
Rod:    Tell us what it all means.
Ralph:  You won't like it.
Martin: That's no surprise.
Xaphod: Just ignore him.
Ralph:  Well, it all began sometime in the 1950's. A group of very
        wealthy and powerful men assembled in Argentina under the
        guidance of a man calling himself Kubla Konthemasus. This
        group of magnates were from various political affiliations -
        Nazis, Communists, Capitalists, and Urologists. They all
        liked money and wanted to rule the world.  They also
        realized that TV was going to be the tool that would give
        them the leverage they needed.
Xaphod: I don't like the way this is starting to sound.
Rod: Me neither.
Ralph:  I warned you.
Martin: You should have listened  to him.
Arnold Lint:    Go on.
Ralph:  Well, they began to infiltrate the TV industry. Soon they not
        only owned huge percentages of each network, but had also
        emplaced their own people into many of the creative
        positions at each network.  Then they began to manipulate
        things. They decided to cast the world in an image that they
        could easily control. So each little kid on TV was either
        predictably (and sickeningly) nice and helpful, or
        predictably always getting into trouble. Women were either
        predictably aggressive or predictably obtuse. You see, they
        set up patterns of behavior that they could count on. Once
        they could predict and control how the public would react to
        something, they could do whatever they wanted. Whenever they
        wanted to do something really tricky (like when they took
        over the Mid-East oil fields in the late 70's and early
        80's) they made sure to get the country thinking their way
        before hand with a massive TV bombardment. If it was a topic
        that they knew nobody would go for no matter how they
        publicized it, they flooded the airways with those sickening
        human emotion type TV-movies. Things like "Plight of the
        Forgotten Children" or "Why is Daddy always angry?". The
        kind of stuff that makes you want to blow lunch.
Rod:    Wow, thats amazing.
Xaphod: Yah.
Ralph:  Their greatest triumph was getting a president elected. Their
        plan was simple. They made sure that the east coast was for
        their candidate, leaving the west coast alone. Then, on
        election day, the TV 'predictions' claimed their candidate
        to be a sure winner. Due to the time difference, all the
        people on the west coast thought the election was over
        anyway and didn't even bother to vote.
Xaphod: Wow, imagine getting a president elected by manipulating the
        media.
Ralph:  And guess what . . . he was an actor!
Gillian:        What a coincidence.
Rod:    Yah, imagine that.
Martin: Doesn't surprise me . . . I expect such things from humans.
Arnold Lint:    But what does all this have to do with the Net?
Gillian: Yah, controlling TV is great but most people in the Net
        are far too dedicated to their work to partake of anything
        as tacky as TV. We're all thoroughly dedicated
        professionals.

(If it were possible for an andriod to supress a burst of
uncontrollable laughter, that is what Martin could now be described
as doing.)
Rod:    Yah what about the Net!?
Ralph:  Well . . .

      ******************** End Of Part 11 ********************

What are the interests of this Neo-Nazi-Communist-Capitalist
organization in the Net? The answer will surprise you - unless
you're a great stupid twit. To find out more . . . Tune in next time
. . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #102
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 84 1047-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #102
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:
        Books - Libertarian SF,
        Films - The Last Starfighter & Roll-Your-Own Films &
                Film News,
        Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 23 May 84 00:45:08-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
Subject: Libertarian SF

        Some one was recently asking about 'libertarian sf'. This is
an interest of mine, so here are some in that vein.

<Flame on>
        First:
        Libertarianism is a political philosophy based on the idea
that it is wrong to interfere in the freedom of others, save to
preserve ones own freedom.  This is not the place to justify or
explore this; if you think of libertarians as anarcho-capitalists
you will get some of the flavor.  For more details, contact me
directly.

        Second:
        It is difficult to decide whether many books are
'libertarian-sf' or not. Books in favor of freedom and critical of
big government are a dime a dozen in sf; but those which take
freedom to its logical conclusion (ie, absence of government) are
less frequent. I will try to list books which libertarians and
others who love liberty might enjoy.

<Flame off>


WE by Yevgeny Zamatyin

This book was written by a Russian dissident about 1920. It
describes a far-future, totally regimented society, and one mans
gradual revolt against the system. This is the earliest sf work I
know of with a distinctly libertarian flavor. It was recently
reprinted by Avon/Bard.

Ayn Rand.

        Ayn Rand's books are EXTREMELY polemical.  Through her works
she tried to expound and disseminate her personal philosophy of
Objectivism, with its emphasis on personal integrity and excellence.
As literature, her works tend to be rather turgid, but if the
philosophy rings a resonant chord in your soul, you'll be utterly
hooked. Ayn Rand's works have probably turned more people on to
libertarian thought than any others.  They seem to effect the young
most strongly; if you have no time for idealism you will proabably
dislike her.

        If you are curious about the ideals to which libertarians
aspire, I could do little better than suggest that you try reading
THE FOUNTAINHEAD, one of her non-sf novels. Two of her other works
have sf elements:

ANTHEM
        One of her shortest books, and based very heavily on the
above mentioned WE.  It is rather more dramatic than its model, but
Rand is probably not as good a writer as Zamyatin.

ATLAS SHRUGGED
        This has very marginal sf elements, but they exist. As
America slowly sinks under a tide of mediocrity and incompetence,
Dagny Taggart singlehandly holds together the last remaining railway
network.  The main thrust of the book is finding out where all the
other competent people have hidden themselves, and why.

        ATLAS SHRUGGED is Rand's magnum opus; it is extremely long,
and moving the plot forward takes back seat to explaining what is
wrong with the world and why people should accept her philosophy.
Despite the sf trappings, the world of AS feels to be circa 1928.  I
dont reccomend AS as a first book on libertarianism or as light
reading, but if you are already interested, you might try reading it
after THE FOUNTAINHEAD.


The following are recent sf novels with an obvious libertarian slant:

ALONGSIDE NIGHT         by J Neil Schulman
        In a future, hyper-inflationary America, the youthful
protagonist gets mixed up in a (literally) underground libertarian
black market cum revolutionary movement, which stages a revolt
against the totalitarian government the US has fallen into the hands
of. Its been a while since I've read this and the details are hazy,
but I remember liking it much.

THE PROBABILITY BROACH
THE VENUS BELT
THE NAGASAKI VECTOR     all by L Neil Smith
        These take place in the same alternative universe, and
though they share characters, they can be read out of sequence. They
are probably a little more far out than the other books I mention,
since a large part of the action takes place in totally libertarian
communities.  Smith has not worked out the facets of such a society
to the point of convincing me , but they remain fun
action-adventures.
        Smith has one other (non-political) book out. THEIR
MAJESTIES BUCKETEERS appears to have been written to answer the
burning question; "Is it possible to write a good victorian murder
mystery where all the characters are tri-symmetric, trisexual
tripods?"  The answer is a resounding NO! This is one of the worst
books I have read in years.

AN ENEMY OF THE STATE   by F Paul Wilson
        Just started this, it appears to be pretty decent, though
heavy on the propaganda.

        All of the above modern sf novels are self-conscious
propaganda; they push a certain point of veiw, and the authors knew
they were doing so.

        In general, I have found that 'novels with a message' tend
to be less successful as entertainment than those without such
pretensions. This is not surprising: unless the author is a perfect
master in the skill of imparting information on the fly, the plot
screeches to a halt every few pages while THE MESSAGE gets beamed at
you. SF has this problem already: in half the sf books I have read,
around page 5 someone says "Tell me professor, how does our society
work?" and then you have a page or two of straight explanation. Some
authors are good at this, others less so. When the author has a
MESSAGE apart from his or her sf story, you get the problem squared.
        I do enjoy polemical novels, but only if they are pandering
to predjudices I already possess. Other peoples propaganda is
usually boring.  The few authors who can hold you captivated with
their story while slipping a heavy message into your brain are
possessed of a powerfull skill indeed.

        I cannot close without recommending a non-partisan (?),
non-propagandistic anthology of stories on the subject of freedom;
its consequences, problems, and abuses and advantages. The book is
THE SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM, a multi-author anthology edited by Jerry
Pournelle, published in paperback by Fawcett.

                                Peter Trei
                                oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 May 84 00:37:45-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
Subject: The Last Starfighter.

        The June issue of High Technology magazine contains an
excellent article on computer graphics, including the following
tidbits on Digital Productions' work for the movie THE LAST
STARFIGHTER:
        The work is being done on a Cray X-MP, printed on 70 mm film
at a resolution of 4000 x 6000, at a pace of about one minute per
day. Unlike TRON, the images include transparency and reflections,
as well as fractal landscapes.
        Some detail is also provided on the Genesis bomb sequence
from ST-TWOK, and other developments in the field.

                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20


ps: The back cover of the paperback of the movie has a small image of
a spacecraft from the film.             pt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 May 84 15:20:17 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: roll your own sf films

How about a film version of Moorcock's Elric novels?  A little
depressing, perhaps, in the long run, but more thoughtful than most
fantasy.  If Max von Sydow were twenty years younger, he would be
perfect for the lead, but since he isn't, how about David Bowie, who
is very good at giving an impression of a tall, thin, pale outsider.
Ridley Scott would be a good choice to direct, as he has a superb
visual sense tending towards the moody and dark.  If he's not
available, his brother Tony is an acceptable second choice.  His
first film, "The Hunger", deals with those who somewhat reluctantly
are forced to live off of others, a theme which has some parallels
in Moorcock's books.

                                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 84 16:15:48-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!isrnix!jon @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: film news

"Enemy Mine", by Barry B. Longyear, did win the 1979 Nebula for best
novella.  I was also very impressed with that story.  I don't know
whether the movie is based on the story, but one can hope...

                                Jon Bayh
                                ihnp4!inuxc!isrnix!jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 May 84 16:39:53 EDT
From: Will Martin <wmartin@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Why we complain; a statement of principles

(Opening trumpet fanfare...)

Regarding the comment by dartvax!johnc that "V" should be treated as
entertainment and we shouldn't complain about the goofs, flaws, and
defects, or pick at it: Since I was one of the earlier submitters of
criticisms of "V", I shall take up this hurled gauntlet and fire it
back...

1) It is also "entertaining" to mock and jeer at drivel.  Talking
back to the characters, catching the writers or producers in a flub,
or otherwise picking at a show is about the same as yelling at the
umpire. A grand American tradition which we have a duty to uphold.
If you do it to the TV screen at home, or to a community of
like-minded people on the net, this is totally harmless, as you
bother no one else (unlike heckling at a movie showing).

2) {IMPORTANT POINT} It is just as easy to do something RIGHT as it
is to do it WRONG. TV people just don't care! (Also some
moviemakers.)  This was explicitly discussed by several commentors.
"V" could have been made with exactly the same cast, at exactly the
same cost, employing exactly the same staff, and come out to be even
more entertaining, if the science had been right, the motives valid,
the characters believeable, and the plot logical. All it would have
took for this to be the case is for the writer(s) to be more
knowledgeable and better skilled, and the other personnel involved
to have CARED if things were right!

(Of course, this doesn't mean we have to explain FTL travel or get
into elaborate technical detail. We can accept certain
pseudoscientific elements as axioms to make SF possible, like
interstellar travel, matter transmission, telepathy, or other SF
standard features. But it doesn't cost anything to make better
choices of plot elements that can have either rational explanations
or good-sounding pseudo-reasoning behind them. For example, in "V",
the aliens could have been grabbing some complex biological compound
secreted in human pituitaries which could not be produced with
recombinant DNA techniques, instead of water.  Sure, we could
probably poke holes in that idea (so what do you expect for off the
top of my head, already?), but it isn't so OBVIOUSLY SILLY as
interstellar water rustling! That would justify them grabbing and
preserving humans as cargo, which could be an important plot
element.)

The problem is that having obvious stupidity presented as
important-to- the-story justification spoils the entertainment value
for people who have the training/intelligence/common sense to
instantly recognize such nonsense as the crap it is. If you have to
think about it, and then later realize that it just isn't right,
that isn't so bad. A lot of fiction falls in that category. You can
be entertained by it for the time being, because you are not doing
deep analysis of the details.

When you get something as blatantly incorrect as "the moon is made
of green cheese" presented as something you have to accept in order
to be entertained in continuing to watch or read the rest of the
story, the writer has failed to do his job. If he presents something
false as true which only one viewer in a thousand will catch, he's
done a much better job. And if he presents something false as true,
but you can only figure that out after taking a graduate course in
astrophysics, he's done a pretty damn good job!

"V" fell in category one. It is intuitively obvious to anyone with
enough intelligence to balance a checkbook that a number of the
basic premises upon which the structure of the story was based were
nonsense.  This required no training or advanced education on the
part of the viewer.  Yet this was not necessarily the case! It would
not have taken much revision to move it to category two. If it had,
it would have been a landmark in TV SF. It could have been just as
much a soap opera in character development and behavior, and that
wouldn't have mattered. (After all, all characters in drama,
literature, or tv behave in an unreal manner -- if they didn't,
there wouldn't be a story in most cases. We are used to this in
everything from "I Love Lucy" to "Masterpiece Theatre".)

There are serious objections to bad programming with an "SF" label,
as it degrades the reputation of a field which we admire. But those
are minor, as we don't really care too much what "they" think,
anyway. Probably, we mainly hack at "V" out of disappointment. All
that effort, money, and time could have been used to make something
we would have liked a lot better. As soon as I rule the world, I'll
see that it's done right...

Will

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 May 84 17:02:45 EDT
From: Will Martin <wmartin@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Another "V" submission

This item went to USENET's net.tv, so wouldn't make it to SF-Lovers,
but I thought it was worth forwarding especially:

From: moriarty@uw-june.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.tv
Subject: Those cute babies on V

I plan to do a V review as soon as the last episode is over, but the
kids last night made me want to drop a note.  The first one was
excellent... I was just thinking, we haven't seen one of the buggers
stick their tongues out yet this time around.  Really scared heck
outta me!  The second one, though, I expected to see a wind-up key
in its back ("Hello! My name is Schecky! Hello! My Name is
Schecky!.....").

Actually, it would have been great if, after all this buildup and
hype, her only kid was... KERMIT THE FROG!!!

        "Oh MY GOD!"
        "Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to... The
        Muppet Show!"  {Muppet show orchestra comes up from
        background...}

They could even have let doctor Rowlf (or whatever his name is)
perform the operation!

Currently residing in
UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty
ARPANET: moriarty@washington

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 14:42:12-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!tekig1!markh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle

<yum>

Doesn't aynone else out there realize that there is Dark Sinister
Purpose in this ostensible idiocy?

What better way to lull our race to sleep than by telling us that
the bad guys are so inanely Bad (and Stupid) that we (the sheep)
come to reject the whole concept of Cosmic Bad Guys as ridiculous?

It isn't that Hollywood is full of airheads, it's that we are on the
verge of being in deep serious cosmic yogurt.  They aren't Coming,
they're Already Here.

But don't listen to me...I'm only kidding anyway.   really.

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 9:40:02-PDT (Mon)
From: sri-unix!hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!hughes@mother.DEC
Subject: The return of beyond the valley of coming soon II (in 3D)

Following hard on the heels of V:The Final Cliche is...

        W: Son of V

gary

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 8:14:13-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Book of "V" (Slight Spoiler)

I think (am not absolutely sure) that I read an interview with A.C.
Crispin (author of the book 'V') that stated that the book 'V' was
written from the screenplay of the Mini-Series.  (somebody correct
me if I am wrong), not vice-versa.

Mark Starner
Computer Science Department     (814) 863-0392
301b Whitmore Lab               {allegra,ihnp4}!psuvax!starner
The Pennsylvania State University starner@penn-state   (csnet)
University Park, PA 16802       starner@psuvax1      (bitnet)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #103
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 84 1240-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #103
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:
   Books - Dewdney & Goldman (2 msgs) & Libertarian SF (2 msgs),
   Television - Roddenberry (2 msgs),
   Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 12

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 84 19:26 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Planiverse: x-y vs. x-z

In V9 #99, Greg Skinner complained about the fact that up and down
are used in "Planiverse".  That is because he thinks about a 2-D
world by laying it out on his table.  In the book, all direction
references are made relative to a Planiverse resident.  "Up" and
"down" mean the same thing to them as it does to us: towards the
center of the planet.  Thus, even if you placed the 2-D world on the
wall, your "up" wouldn't necessarily correspond to the "up" of a
resident of the 2-D world.  One thing to notice in the book: most of
the time, references to lateral directions on the Planiverse planet
(whose name escapes me) are done with "east" and "west", not "right"
and "left".
                                        barmar

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 84 08:16 PDT
From: Harris Shiffman <Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Princess Bride & S. Morganstern

An addendum to the discussion of a few weeks ago:

    Yesterday, I picked up a copy of The Princess Bride for a
friend.  It was an April, 1984 printing, so there shouldn't be any
problem finding it.  Biggest difficulty will be with guessing in
which section your particular bookstore hides it.  I've seen it in
literature, humor and science fiction.  Ah, well.  At least no one
had the nerve to stick it among the Barbara Cartland dreck.

    On the page preceding the title page of TPB, there is a list of
other works by William Goldman.  Directly below the list of his film
scripts appears a box which mentions The Silent Gondoliers.  So,
even though TSG does not mention Goldman, TPB gives him credit for
being Samuel Morganstern for this second book.

                                        Hank Shiffman
                                        Symbolics Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 23:34:26-PST (Sat)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!uofm-cv!janc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: William Goldman

I once checked Who's Who's entry on Goldman.  His wife is not named
Helen, and he has no son (two daughters if I remember right).
Personally, I enjoyed the Princess Bride much more once I learned
the introduction was fictitous.  I still haven't figured out why my
copy is subtitled "A Hot Fairy Tale."  It is only slightly "hotter"
than Tolkien (i.e. there is a girl in it).
                                        -- Jan Wolter

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1984 22:43-EDT
From: James A. Cox <APPLE @ MIT-MC>
Subject: The Probability Broach

After seeing "The Probability Broach" by L. Neil Smith recommended
as an example of libertarian SF, I ran right out to my favorite
bookstore and bought a copy.  Of course I've read a number of books
with libertarian angles, including some by Heinlein, H. Beam Piper,
Lee Correy, and even James P. Hogan but I don't think I've ever read
anything which carried laudatory blurbs from "Libertarian Review"
and "Reason" as this book does.  Unfortunately, I was disappointed
by the book, for two reasons.  First, the book makes a good many
errors about the history of the American Revolution, and to someone
who knows anything about that event, those errors are every bit as
glaring as the errors of science in "V."  Second, the book is
preachy about libertarianism.  Of course I expected that, but what I
didn't expect was that its preaching would be unconvincing!  Maybe
I'm spoiled having read persuasive libertarian arguments in Poli-Sci
for the past few years....

The premise of the book is the existence of an alternative universe
in which the United States has developed into a libertarian "North
American Confederacy."  The history of the two universes was the
same up until 1794, when in the alternative universe George
Washington was killed by Albert Gallatin during the Whisky
Rebellion.  Gallatin (who in "our" universe was an unspectacular
Secretary of the Treasury in the Jefferson administration) led the
attack against the Federalists and "their" Constitution, which was
declared "null and void."  The Articles of Confederation were
reinstated and Gallatin was proclaimed President.  Shortly
thereafter he was confirmed by Congress, which proceeded to abolish
all taxes and restore seized property to the Loyalists and
Federalists.  In 1797, the Articles of Confederation were revised,
binding the United States and the states to respect the civil and
political rights of all citizens.  From that point on, the
government proceeded to gradually wither away, leaving Americans to
enjoy their blissful anarcho-capitalist paradise.

The most obvious historical error is that Gallatin could not have
been "proclaimed" President after the Articles of Confederation were
reinstated, because THERE WAS NO SUCH OFFICE UNDER THE ARTICLES OF
CONFEDERATION!  It got worse from that point on.  Smith's made-up
history has all sorts of unlikely people being elected president
through history, including Albert Jay Nock, H.L. Mencken, and Ayn
Rand (imagine the oh-so-dignified Ms. Rand out "stumping," eating
ethnic dishes and making speeches!).

The libertarianism is, as I said, not very convincing.  The basic
plot has a few concerned individuals trying to stop a "Federalist"
conspiracy to restore the Constitution and do other evil things to
the free people of the Confederation.  (It's not very difficult to
spot the Federalists because they all wear insignia of an
eye-in-a-pyramid [you know, like on the back of a one dollar bill]).
In one scene, the main character has just captured an assasin, sent
to kill him by the number one baddie.  It turns out that Confederacy
"custom" prohibits the guy from threatening the assasin in order to
make him reveal the name of his boss.  Come on!  That sounds like
they let Earl Warren write the criminal rules in both universes.  In
MY libertarian paradise, that man just forfeited ALL rights by
attempting murder.  Once force is used against me, I ought to have
the right to respond with whatever degree of force I deem necessary
in order to insure that those who violated my rights once cannot do
so again.

The characterizations are little better.  "The Probability Broach"
reads as though L. Neil Smith neglected to make up new characters of
his own, and just appropriated ones from the "Lensman" series of
another Smith: E.E. "Doc".  Only the plot is of any rudimentary
interest; I was interested in whether Smith let the Federalists win
in the end--but the book's faults almost had me turning to the last
chapter directly, skipping the rest.

All in all, I do not recommend the book.

 - James Cox

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 13:59:40-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: re: libertarian sf

Someone was asking for libertarian sf stories a while back, and I
have yet to see one of my favorites mentioned:

        "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russel

I know this has been collected at least a couple times, once in a
book by Russel called The Great Explosion (I think).  At any rate,
it was, like much of Russel's work very funny as well as making a
point.

On the subject of Libertarian sf, was anyone else disturbed by the
destruction of Venus in L Neil Smith's The Venus Belt?  I am
generally (though not completely) sympathetic to the libertarian
cause , but this seemed like going beyond the pale.

PS : if I've not spelled Russel correctly, sorry
Ted Nolan                               usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle
Columbia, SC 29206                      (feather the rast!)

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 1984 0029 PDT
From: Eric P. Scott <EPS@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Genesis II 2

Sorry trivia-fans, the sequel was called Planet Earth (this was
about a women-run society that kept men as pets by putting "dink
extract" from a "mutant plant" in their food and conditioning them
with "stims" that could inflict pain or pleasure.  The drug had the
side-effect of making the men sterile, hence their interest in our
hero).

Earth 2, on the other hand, was about a nation-sized space colony
orbiting Earth, a Chinese nuclear device a bit too close, and the
guy they sent out to defuse it before something bad happened... he
risked (and lost) his life saving them.

                                        -=EPS=-

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 13:35:37-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!intelca!cem @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

Actually I belive the second genesis pilot was Genesis II, the movie
Earth II was about a Space Station in orbit, where Marriot Hartely
nearly blows everyone to smithereens with a captured orbital nuke..

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 09:47:40 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 12

                                         Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                   Episode 12 - Life, The Net, and Everything Part 2

(Ralph, the 'Video Testament' is just about to explain Life, the Net,
and Everything to the crew of the Infinity)

Gillian:        Tell us, what does all this neo-Nazi stuff have to do
        with the Net.
Arnold Lint:    I don't think I want to know.
Martin: Me neither.
Rod:    Quiet.
Xaphod: Go on . . .
Ralph:  Anyway, Kubla Konthemasus' followers were doing great.
        Anything they showed on TV was immediately accepted as
        truth. Disco became an overnight sensation, and then was
        phased out when the profit wasn't great enough. It was soon
        realized that there was a significant group of people in
        computer related fields who possessed considerable wealth.
        It was also realized that these people were not being taken
        in by the video blitz.
Arnold Lint:    Good for us!
Martin: Not really, I'm afraid.
Ralph:  Very perceptive, robot. Konthemasus' research showed that
        hackers do not believe what they see or hear, unless it
        comes across a computer terminal. It was fast becoming
        apparent that computers would be vital to the power of the
        new regime, so it was vital that anyone who worked with
        computers could be controlled.
Gillian:Yes, but what does that have to do with the Net? The Net
        is an exchange of ideas and ideals between computer
        professionals!

(Martin starts coughing sarcasticly)

Ralph:  Kubla Konthemasus, in a brilliant stroke, figured out a way
        to not only carry out an experiment in behavioral psychology
        on the computing professionals, but also to put into action
        all his findings. He created the Net. You see, there are a
        few key links in the Net controlled by his men.  At first
        they tried a variety of topics and tested reactions. Then
        they started trying to bend the opinion of Net-landers.
        First by trying to get everyone to like current trends in
        music, then by trying to create the impression that North
        Dakota does not exist. Anyone who rejected the ideas they
        tried to push, and was fool enough to say so, was put onto a
        list. This list will be used to purge the society of all
        those who would corrupt the purity of essence of
        Konthemasus' new order of conformity and religious
        fulfillment.
Xaphod: Wow, that's unbelievable.
Rod:    Yah, I don't think I do believe it.
Arnold Lint:    Me neither . . . An actor in the white house? . . .
        No North Dakota? . . . Couldn't happen!
Gillian:        I don't know, maybe . . .
Ralph:  Well, that's about it. I've got to go, lots to do.
Rod:    What could a book have to do?
Ralph:  About an ounce of cocaine!

(With that, Ralph vanishes into thin air. The crew of the Infinity
is left standing, dumbfounded by what they have heard. They start to
leave and come to the door. There is a moment of hesitation.)

Gillian:If anyone of you open the door for me, I'll put the boot in.
Arnold Lint:    What's with her.
Rod:    she's an ERA.
Arnold Lint:     A what?
Xaphod: ERA - An Extra Rights Activist.

[*******************************************************************
According to "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net", the Extra Rights
Activists group was started by a group of women who were quite upset
by their station in life. They didn't just want equality, they
wanted superiority. They figured they could get all the privileges
of equality with men, and yet retain all the conveniences regarded
them as women.  They wanted equal pay for less work, lower taxes for
women, shorter work hours. After all, the fairer sex shouldn't have
to work so hard, but they do deserve the same pay. They didn't want
to join the army though. They felt that in some cases, where it was
convenient, men could still have it all. The one thing you could do
to make an ERA mad was to hold the door for her. They took it as a
sign of harassment . . . no one knows why. Other acts of courtesy
were also mistaken as antagonising the ERA movement. Helping an ERA
with her coat was the same as telling her she smelled like the
bathroom at the National Food Poisoners Convention. Helping an ERA
with her chair in a restaurant was tantamount to clubbing her about
the head with a moldy Albatros.  In response to this threat to male
dominated society, the all-male anti-ERA faction MCP (Male
Counter-ERA Pact) circulated a pamphlet explaining what a man could
do if the woman he was with gave any indications of trying to open
the door before he could open it for her. It read as follows:

=================================================================

                   ** How not to hold the door for an ERA **

If the woman you are with starts to race for the door so she can
open it for herself, and this upsets you, here are a few things you
can do to make sure it won't happen again.

*       Just as she gets up to speed, trip her from behind.
*       When she has a large enough lead, and has the door open,
        stop to tie your shoe.
*       If there is a convenient doorway (like a men's room) nearby,
        wait until she isn't looking and duck in as she opens the
        door.
*       If she is holding the door, take hold of it as you enter the
        doorway and close it behind. Locking it is a sure-fire clue
        to her that you are displeased.
*       If there is a long corridor before the offending door, and she
        starts to speed up, keep pace with her. When you both hit a
        dead run, body check her into the wall. A well timed 'Ooops'
        will make it all look innocent. This is dangerous if you are
        with a lady roller derby player.
*       If you really don't care about offending her, give her a quick
        feel just as she turns away from you to head for the door.
        Of course, she may never turn her back on you again.

Remember, there is nothing wrong with being courteous. But if she
won't take it gracefully, make it bloody inconvenient for her to
keep doing so.

=====================================================================

The ERA movement, surprisingly, took no action against the MCP.
Rumor has it that they settled the debate in some non-violent
manner.  History notes that there followed a sudden increase in the
sale of plastic drop clothes and corn oil followed by a sudden
increase in births about 9 months later.
********************************************************************]


      ******************** End Of Part 12 ********************

Will Arnold Lint hold the door for Gillian? Or will he become a
soprano? To find out ... Tune in next time ... same Net-time ...
same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #104
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 84 1304-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 May 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:
         Books - Martin & Morrow & Vinge & Techno-sci-fi &
                 Cthulu (2 msgs),
         Television - V: The Final Battles (6 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 13

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 20:48:58-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!akgua!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard

Yes, another insufferable book review...  I couldn't resist.

I reviewed FEVRE DREAM by George R. R. Martin in SF-LOVERS not too
long ago; GREEN EYES does for zombies what FEVRE DREAM does for
vampires, that is to say, it establishes a pseudo-scientific basis
for the creatures.  Jocundra Verret is a therapist at a peculiar
clinic: she supervises the short-lived 'recoveries' of patients who
have been infected with a unique bioluminescent bacteria culture.
The fact that the patients must be dead for at least a few hours
before the culture is administered, and that the eyes of the
patients give off a green glow, leads her to wonder whether these
patients are zombies.  Most of the patients only 'survive' for a few
days, but Jocundra is assigned a patient who has received a mutant
culture and is expected to last for months.  From this patient, who
discovers his true nature and rebels against his impending second
death, Jocundra learns that the voodoo beliefs about zombies are not
as superstitious as they sound...  The book has a very nice feel,
with many beautiful images and interesting characters (the story
does a good job of conjuring up the Cajun country of Louisiana, a
place I've never visited), and it also has a slam-bang climax.  With
its emphasis on the voodoo religion, it reminds me of some of Roger
Zelazny's early novels, but is written with a style and atmosphere
more reminiscent of Michael Bishop.  I really liked it.

Can't stop reading,
Donn Seeley  UCSD Chemistry Dept.
32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W  (619)452-4016
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA

PS -- to readers in San Diego: Kim Stanley Robinson is giving a
reading from his novel THE WILD SHORE and a lecture at UCSD (6/5, 4
PM TCHB 142).  If you have Robinson's PhD dissertation (on the
novels of Philip K. Dick) checked out from the University library,
can I get a look at it before the talk?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 May 84 21:30:44-EDT
From: Stephen Londergan <GZ.STEVE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: James Morrow

Is any one familiar with James Morrow's books, "The Wine of
Violence" and/or "The Continent of Lies" ?

Stephen@MIT-oz

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 3:42:00-PST (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: True Names - (nf)

>From Analog 5 (ancient anthology) I recall vividly a Vinge short
story called "Bookworm, Run!"  Anyone know if this is included in a
currently available collection?  Quite good.

        Brendan Eich
        ...uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 20:54:36-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsstat!cobb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: techno-sci-fi

I am currently looking for some good technocratic science fiction,
especially in the style of JAMES P. HOGAN (Inherit the stars, and
especially The Two Faces of Tomorrow for AI types).  My library
contains all of HOGAN, ASIMOV, CLARKE, STANISLAW LEM, JOSE FARMER,
Ringworld series and Neutron Star of NIVEN, and some of HEINLEIN
with the exception of garbage like "Number of The Beast".  It feels
as if I ran out of good sci-fi. Since experimentation costs a lot, I
decided to poll for recommendations.

Please forward any recommendations to:

                decvax!utzoo!yetti!ozan

                OZan Yigit    (wizard of something or another)
                Dept of Computer Science
                York University
                Canada

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 84 12:20:17 PDT (Friday)
From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Looking for Cthulhu Mythos stories

"FROM THE HEART OF DARKNESS" by David Drake has at least one C.M.
story.  And the other stories are even better!  Joe-Bob says check
it out.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 84 19:40:40-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Cthulhu Myths

Maybe of interest to fellow-worshippers:

the Science Fantasy Bookstore in Harvard Square (Cambridge, MA)
carries a t-shirt with the lettering

                Smile! Cthulhu loves you.

and with a drawing of a (smiling, I think) many-tentacled critter.

        Lisa Chabot

UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA  01752
shadow: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-avalon!chabot

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 19:45:01 EDT
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: more V

First of all, I don't think that these problem are all nearly as
obvious as y'all think.  I understand all of the complaint raised,
but I only spotted one or two of them.  I don't think mister Joe
American would even understand what you're talking about.  We all
know there are huge chunks of ice out there because we've read books
about ice mining and followed the voyager space shot closely.  Most
people don't know these things.

But this is really beside the point.  Frankly, I think they could
have done all of these things right and it still would have been a
shitty show.  The problem with the poison dump at the end wasn't
anything about the delivery system or the nature of the bacteria.
The problem was that it was a clear case of Duo Ex Machina (excuse
my spelling, but I can't find it in my spellerama): the writers
obviously got to that point and then said "now let's make the rebels
win."  It's exactly like the end of War of the Worlds, by the way.
Not even much originality.  And it all showed that kind of lack of
quality.  Who cares if the science was wrong.  It still would have
been bad.

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 5:00:34-PDT (Tue)
From: sri-unix!hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!burl!ulysses!harpo!d
From: ecvax!decwrl!boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: Nazi Space Lizards

Quite frankly, I don't understand what all the carping about
television sf (eg.  V) is about. Why does everyone get so worked up
about it? SF is treated no worse than any other genre on the boob
tube.
        On the other hand, it *is* true that people tend to get a
bad impression of sf from skiffy tv shows, whereas they don't
necessarily get a bad impression of, say, detective fiction from
watching MICKEY SPILLANE'S MIKE HAMMER.

                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 14:44:22-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: V Synopsis
From: Mike Ciaraldi  <ciaraldi>

I just got back from vacation.  While away, I saw the first two
parts of "V", but missed the very last one.  Can someone give me a
quick synopsis of it?  At the end of the second episode, the rebels
had just blown up the pumping station, and the twins had been born,
one human (except for tongue), one lizardish.  Thanks.

Mike Ciaraldi
ciaraldi@rochester
seismo!rochester!ciaraldi

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 15:08:49-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V: The Series worse than Lost in Space?

Probably about the same level as (get those space sickness bags
ready, folks) SPACE:1999 (glawwwwp! retch! <urp!>)

                               Bob Fishell
                               ihnp4!ihu1g!fish

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 84 13:14:02-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Space nazis and people who compplain

Yes, in the foreward to A Hole in Space he says that anyone who has
a first edition of Ringworld should hold on to it.  It's the only
one where the Earth revolves in the wrong direction.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 27 May 1984, 17:02-EDT
From: Arthur L. Chin <ARTHUR at MIT-MC>
Subject: Invasion of Bad Hsiffy... [V-jering]

Now that the Visitors have left our smug little planet, how can we
prepare for their return this Fall?  Would an attempt to get this
digest's main comments and criticisms of V to the NBC writers be
worth it?  Is there anyone out there who has any contact with them?
Or is it too late?  (For some people, I guess it was too late after
the first episode last spring...)

Speaking of bad science fiction,

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 09:48:26 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 13

                                 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
                                                  Episode 13

(When last we left Xaphod and company, Gillian was preparing to put
the boot into the first one who held the door for her - this being an
act of harrassment to the Extra Rights Activists movement.)

Martin: Look, I'll solve the problem.

(With that, Martin blasts the door away with his built in Ultra-Zap
gun.)

Gillian:        You shouldn't have done that Martin, blasting the door
        away is the same as holding it. You are threatening my rights.
Rod:    Forget it.
Xaphod: Yah, besides, putting the boot into old Martin wouldn't
        accomplish anything.
Martin: Well, at least there will be no Martin Jr.'s who have to
        endure this miserable life.
Others: Ugh.
Arnold Lint:    Well, what do we do now?
Gillian:        I guess we'll head back to the Infinity.
Xaphod: Yah, I guess so, this place is getting dull.
Martin: GETTING dull!?
Rod:    Shut up!

(Xaphod and the others make their way back to the Infinity. They are
just about to take off when two strange people appear on the
Infinity's bridge. One of them is dressed in a business suit and is
carrying a brief case with a "Jesus Saves, But Only If You Make A
Deposit!" sticker on it. The other is dressed up as a Nazi SS
Captain.)

Rod:    Who are you two.
Business Man:   We represent the Church of the Holy Profit and Divine
        Purity. We believe in the Word of Adolf.
Xaphod: Do you cats have names.
Nazi:   Names!? I'll ask the questions here.
Rod:    Could you tell us about this 'Word of Adolf'.
Business Man:   Our faith is based on the works of Hitler. When he
        rose again in Argentina, it was the sign of our upcoming
        dominance.
Gillian:        But, how can you worship such a man?
Nazi:   Quiet, the Fuhrer was a great leader.
Business Man:   Actually, we realized that his goals were not that
        much different than those of our previous affiliation - the
        Pay The Lord Club. He believes that our religion is best, he
        believes that all others will rot in Hell. But what makes
        him really different is that he did what all other
        God-fearing evangelists only dream of doing - KILLING THE
        NON-BELIEVERS!!!
Arnold Lint:    They're crazy!

[*******************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that there was in
fact a plot conceived in the late 1970's by Jerry Foulmouth and Oral
Rectal to set up mass extermination camps under the guise of
'Religious Interface Centers'.  Fortunately, The plan was never
carried out as it would have interfered with the football season.
Project 'Clean Slate', as it was known, was rescheduled for 1984. It
was felt that the coincidence with the book of the same title would
lull the masses into thinking that all the strange happenings were
just the result of a few people just took a book a bit too seriously.
********************************************************************]

Xaphod: They may be crazy, but they're right. Have you ever heard
        those guys on TV on Sunday morning. I don't half expect them
        to put all the blacks and Jews up against the wall and shoot
        'em.
Nazi:   Ah what a wonderful thought.
Business Man:   We would like you to join our congregation. Our
        scanners indicate that you could be useful additions to our
        'Flock of Power'. We need people to go out into the Net and
        spread our beliefs. It is best when they know the bible and
        can cloud our intents with a lot of biblical quotes. You'll
        have to brush up a bit on that stuff.  Remember, you'd be
        better off joining us now, than serving us later. First, we
        will have a short prayer to our beloved Adolf .  . .
        everybody now . . .
Gillian:        What will we do?
Nazi:   It's simple - pray  . . . or DIE.
Business Man:   In light of that, we would accept a LARGE donation
        from you. How much do you feel your lives are worth.

(With that, the Nazi pulls out a WWII vintage MP40 sub-machine gun.
Martin, shakes off his usual bustling disinterest and zaps the Nazi
in the groin with 1000 volts. The Business man takes off and is also
quickly laid to rest by Martin's electro-gun.)

Xaphod: Nice shooting Martin!
Rod:    Yah, really 'trific.
Martin: I have a cousin who's Jewish - and a sister who's black.
Arnold Lint:    Yah . . . right.
Gillian: Hard to believe a religion based on taking in money and
        bigotry. Must be a billion to one shot.
Xaphod: Well, where shall we go now?
Rod:    How 'bout Micro-Ways!?
Gillian:        Yah!
Arnold Lint:    What's Micro-Ways?
Martin: It's the restaurant at the end of the Net - you won't like it.

      ******************** End Of Part 13 ********************

What will be found at Micro-Ways? Will they have BigMacs and
Whoppers? How about Egg McMuffins? To find out the menu . . . tune
in to the upcoming RatEotN (Restaurant at the End of the Net). Seen
on many of these Net stations.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #105
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 May 84 1042-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 May 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:

Films - 70MM Film Bonanza (2 msgs) & The Last Starfighter (2 msgs) &
2001/2010 (2 msgs) & Future Spielberg Projects & Star Raiders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 84 11:15:26-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 70MM Film Bonanza

                        70MM Exhibition Craze

The number of theaters with 70MM Six Track Dolby Stereo presentation
capability is rapidly expanding, with Dolby Labs estimating that
some 600 screens will be in operation in the U.S. by the end of
1984.  At this point in time, some 470 U.S. theaters have Dolby's
CP200 six track stereo sound processor for 70MM and 51 additional
packages have been sold in the past four months, a combination of
new screens and upgrading existing facilities.  Since Dolby Labs
will only build 12 units a month through December, this translates
to some 600 units by Christmas.

The prospective 600 screen total does not include specialized 70MM
theaters, including IMAX and OMNIMAX theaters, Douglas Trumbull's
Showscan sites and Walt Disney's shows at EPCOT, Disney World, and
Disneyland.

                        18 70MM Releases Scheduled

Paramount is aiming at having the widest release yet in the wide
gauge for its May 23 opening of Lucasfilm's "Indiana Jones and the
Temple of Doom", targeted for some 200 prints in 70MM!  The final
total will be between 175 and 210 screens.  This should break the
record of 169 70MM prints held by MGM/UA's "Brainstorm" in
September, 1983.  "Jones" will have an additional 1200 35MM houses
playing from day one.  A week later (June 1), Paramount will debut
"Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" on a massive 1700 theater
break, including 100 70MM sites.  Last summer, "Return of the Jedi"
set boxoffice records when it opened wide at 1002 theaters including
164 70MM houses.

Other upcoming 70MM fare from the major distributors will probably
have less populous wide-gauge print runs, following Warner Brothers'
current use of 15 70MM prints for "Greystoke".

The final decision of whether to blow up a particular picture to
70MM for release is still tentative, but the distributors summer
plans for 70MM are as follows:

Columbia's "Ghostbusters"  and "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle"

Universal's "Streets of Fire" and "The Last Starfighter"

Warner Brothers "Gremlins", "Once Upon A Time in America" (Ladd Co.)
and "Tightrope"

There is no word yet on other likely candidates for 70MM, such as
Warner Brothers' "Supergirl" and 20th-Fox/Sherwood's "Buckaroo
Banzai", latter title currently being mixed in six-track stereo,
just in case.

Unlike "Brainstorm", which featured Super Panavision (65MM)
principal photography for many scenes, the upcoming films are
generally being shot in 35MM formats, later to be blown up to 70MM
release prints.  Several, such as "Indiana Jones" and
"Ghostbusters", feature special visual effects material filmed in
wide screen processes such as VistaVision or Super Panavision, but
not for the live action.  This is different from Showscan and IMAX,
which actually film in the larger formats.

Fall releases in 70MM are planned for Orion's "Amadeus" and
Columbia's remake of "The Razor's Edge".  The big news come
Christmas is the impressive lineup of pictures earmarked for 70MM
release:

Columbia's "A Passage to India" by David Lean, whose 1960's
productions were also 70MM releases.

Disney-Buena Vista's "Baby"

MGM/UA's "2010: Odyssey II"

Universal's "Dune" and "The River"

Warner Brothers "City Heat"

No decision has yet been made on Orion's "The Cotton Club" and other
Yuletide fare, which could add to the list.  For 1985, so far
Disney-Buena Vista's "OZ" and "The Black Cauldron" (latter animated
picture being filmed in VistaVision to facilitate wide gauge release
prints) will be in 70MM, with the intention of servicing every
exhibitor request for a 70MM print with same.  Tri-Star Pictures'
$50M production of "Santa Claus" will also be released in 70MM.

-Eric Carter
AT&T-IS
Morristown, NJ
allegra!abnjh!cbspt005

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 84 8:16:10-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!watcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza

What is the reason for releasing a 70mm print of a film that was
originally shot on 35mm stock?  The resolution is going to be
determined by the original 35mm film.

(I would expect that the film stock used for the release prints
would have grain at least as fine as the original negative, since it
can be made as slow as the film manufacturer likes).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 84 18:13 PDT
From: "Craig W. Reynolds" <reynolds@RAND-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: Starfighter FX vs TRON FX
To: "Peter G. Trei" <OC.TREI@CU20B>

    Date: Tue 22 May 84 00:37:45-EDT
    From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
    Subject: The Last Starfighter.
    ... Digital Productions' work for the movie THE LAST STARFIGHTER:

         The work is being done on a Cray X-MP, printed on 70 mm
    film at a resolution of 4000 x 6000, at a pace of about one
    minute per day. Unlike TRON, the images include transparency and
    reflections, as well as fractal landscapes.  ...

That last sentence is correct, except for the fact that the imagery
in TRON included transparency, reflections and fractal landscapes.

The production rate mentioned above is about 5 times faster than the
rate at which frames were produced for TRON (at triple-I on a Foonly
F1).

Also, I am 98% certain that their computer output is on 35mm
vistavision (an 8 perf horizontal format) since DP purchased, and I
assume they are using, the same film recorder (the "DFP") that we
used at triple-I during TRON.  This would eventually be printed up
to 70mm for release.  The max resolution we used back then was 3000
pixels across, more typically it was 1500.  The "correct" number,
based on spot size and film bandwidth is between 1000 and 2000.
Pixel densities above this tend to be for the purpose of "solving"
the aliasing problem by brute force -- super-sampling reduces the
intensity of the aliasing artifacts.  [This is much like solving the
problem of spoiled meat by grinding it into little tiny pieces
before eating it.]  -c

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 84 11:20:01 PDT (Friday)
From: isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: The Last Starfighter

>        The work is being done on a Cray X-MP, printed on 70 mm
>film at a resolution of 4000 x 6000, at a pace of about one minute
>per day. Unlike TRON, the images include transparency and
 >reflections, as well as fractal landscapes.

  The filming of the computer generated sequences was NOT done on
70mm.  This is one of those films where it is shot in 35mm and
printed on 70mm.

 There were actually three "camera" systems used. The primary camera
is called a Digital Film Printer. It is the device III used to film
parts of Tron. It is connected to the IO subsystem of the Cray XMP.
Associated with it are two digital film scanners for film input to
the CRAY (will do some fantastic mattes when and if the
scanners/code work).

 The Secondary camera was a standard Acme animation camera on top of
a Martix RGB 1280x1024 camera system. In normal companies the Matrix
is used to take 8x10's of mundane business graphics. The DPions put
the movie camera on top and hooked it up to a Ramtek 94xx
framebuffer. Most of the work out of DP was done on this device
(Fiero commercial, Sony Superwalkman, Devo's Peek-a-boo and She's
out of Sync and a spot for TSR games to name a few).

 The third "camera" was a tape drive. It recorded the data out of
the framebuffer. Starfighter made one heck of a tape library!!

 The pace of 1 minute of film per day is an average including the
low res./detail game scenes. Some of the multi-ship scenes took over
an hour to generate a single frame (1hr x 24fps = 1 sec/day!!).

 The realism of these scenes must be seen to be appreciated. The
transparency/reflection models are entirely new and quite good but
need the Cray.

 Previews to select crowds have drawn rave reviews. It opens June
15.

 From one who was there....

 JB Isdale

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 12:14:08-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!randvax!kovacs!jim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 2001 and 2010 - (f)

>  From: ks@astrovax.UUCP
>  Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010
>  Evidently MGM assigned him (Peter Hyams) to the project.

Directors are not *assigned* to projects. Those days are long gone.

>  From: cbspt005@abnjh.UUCP (Eric Carter)
>  Subject: 2010 - Peter Hyams
>  One thing for sure, the special effects are being done by the
>  best in the business, Doug Trumbull's Entertainment Effects
>  Group, under the tutelage of triple Oscar-winner Richard Edlund
>  ("Alien", "The Empire Strikes Back", "Return of the Jedi").

Wrong. Edlund is Effects Supervisor, but EEG is not doing the
effects. Where do you people get your information ? And don't tell
me "Starlog", or some other effects rag. The people who write for
those trash rags know less about what's what than my dog.

>  From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
>  Subject: Re: Saturn not pretty enuf for Kubrik
>  The irony of 2001, a generally beautiful film, is that its
>  depictions of Juapiter and its moons pale to dullness next to the
>  real thing, as beamed back by the Voyagers and other probes.
>  Swirls and eddies on Jupiter, furrows on ?, ice craks all over
>  Europa, Io's hell -- yessir, truth can really beat hell out of
>  fiction.  If anyone had dreamed up something like that for
>  Kubrik, he might have refused it, saying "that's too fantastic...
>  there's enuf LDS trip stuff at the end.  People would laugh at
>  those planets." Well, I just read 2010, and the special effects
>  to do it anything like justice had BETTER BE GOOD!  Hope they rip
>  off all they need from NASA. No more plaster Jupiters...mike k

I showed this one to Con Pederson. When he stopped laughing, he said
it wasn't worth his time to reply to it. My response is:

    2001 was begun five years before man landed on the moon.  For
    its time (and for a long time after), it was/is the best film
    (complete film -- story, cinematography, effects) of the genre.
    To compare one effect from the film to a reality of fifteen
    years later, on the surface, seems ludicrous, but actually is
    probably testament to the accomplishment of its makers.

>  From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
>  Subject: 2010:  Odyssey Two
>  Special Effects are being handled by the Doug Trumbull group...

C'mon. I'd really like to know who started this rumor. The company
doing the effects is Boss Film Corp, which now occupies the same
building that EEG used to occupy. And *some* of the people from EEG
are probably working on the film (there is a *limit* to the number
of *talented* effects persons in the business). And unless
something's changed very recently, Doug Trumbull himself should be
off working on SHOWSCAN somewhere.

-Jim-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 May 84 03:43 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: 2001/10

As I recall, in Agel's book, Trumbull says that in order to produce
a convincing Saturn he would have to produce a convincing Jupiter
anyway - because Saturn is essentially Jupiter with rings and also
the Discovery would presumably fly past Jupiter en route to Saturn.

As far as 2010 is concerned - well I didn't rate the book as highly,
but then I guess I have no visual record to rely on.  I don't expect
the film to be as good tho', basically, I guess, because, although
Hyams is a competent - maybe even good - director (I, it seems
unfashionably, did enjoy Capricorn 1 - although I thought it was
more a post-Watergate paranoia movie than SF), Kubrik is/was a Great
Director and 2001 was a Great Film - in my opinion one of the top
dozen ever.  It's probably too much to expect the sequel to match up
(any more than one could reasonably expect Psycho 2 to).  Sure there
has always been a dearth of good SF films, but then there has always
been -relatively speaking - a dearth of any kind of SF film.  I
doubt, really, whether any SF movie, 2001 apart, qualifies as a
Great Film, and it'll probably be a while before there's another (OK
maybe Solaris - personally I fell asleep).  Whatever one may think
about the Lucases and Spielbergs of this world they are not in the
same league as Kubrick,and we should just be grateful for good
workmanlike enjoyable SF films to keep rolling out (Close Encounters
excepted).  Let's all bear in mind Sturgeon's Law "90% of everything
is crap".
          so long, and thanks for all the fish,
           deryk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 84 10:49:25 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Spielberg's future sf/fantasy projects

A recent article in the LA Times dealing extensively with Steven
Speilberg mentioned some of his projects which have a science
fiction/fantasy bent.  Here they are, and they don't sound exciting:

        A remake of "Peter Pan", which will *not* star Michael
                Jackson.

        A remake of "A Guy Named Joe", a 1940s fantasy about a dead
                flyer who returns to earth to help a living one.

        "Protector", a story about a children's camp in outer space.

There were also a few non-sf films under consideration.

There is no certainty that these project will go anywhere, or, if
they do, that Spielberg will direct rather than produce.  No further
word on whether Spielberg is still interested in "Schindler's List",
a true story about an Eastern European industrialist who, for no
reason other than simple humanity, saved the lives of several
hundred Jews from the Nazis at great risk to his own life.  This was
almost assumed to be Spielberg's next project, for quite some time.

                                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 27 May 1984, 17:29-EDT
From: Arthur L. Chin <ARTHUR at MIT-MC>
Subject: Invasion of Bad Hsiffy... (V-jeering)

I was priviliged to see a real ripe movie called SPACE RAIDERS.
About the same level of sophistication as last summer's
SPACEHUNTERS: Adventures in the Forbidden Zone, but without the 3-D.
It had the poorest production values I had seen in a long time.
What awesome special effects from Battlestar Galactica *out-takes*!
(Yeah-- that bad!)  Boy, that spaceship sure looked good --
something like escargot!  And then everyone died from being shot by
blasers which could be heard but not seen.  Except for the cute
ten-year-old boy who did nothing but stare into the camera, being
just about as bored as I was.  A must-not-see.

I am no English scholar but I would like to make one request if you
please could those contributors to SF-LOVERS who infrequently insert
punctuation marks in their letters use them with more frequency as I
find it a bit easier to read that way I don't have to read it over
and over to find out where sentences or if you will phrases start
and stop well live long and prosper.

--- toscanini(.,:;*!)
And so it goes.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-May  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #106
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 May 84 1057-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 May 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:
          Books - Rosenberg & "Parallel Worlds" Stories &
                  Libertarian SF & Non-Human Aliens (10 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1984 17:14-EST
From: Dragon  <Monica.Cellio@cmu-cs-spice>
Subject: Guardians of the Flame

Does anyone out there know when the third book (there had BETTER be
a third book...) of Guardians of the Flame by Joel Rosenberg is
coming out?  (The first two books are "The Sleeping Dragon" and "The
Sword and the Chain".)

Thanks in advance.
                                                        -D

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 May 84 23:06:05-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: "Parallel Worlds" stories

Now I've unpacked my library, let me suggest two other "parallel
worlds" stories:

        The House of many Worlds - Sam Merwyn Jr

        Quicksand - John Brunner (or is it?)

The both came across as good reading.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 84 16:05:46 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Libertarian SF

Someone may have mentioned it, but I didn't notice it if so: One of
the best libertarian SF novels out there is Heinlein's The Moon is a
Harsh Mistress.  It offers a good view of the benefits of both the
anarcho-capitalist and the minarchist ideas, almost without the
reader realizing it is doing so.  It also offers a sapient computer
which has just become conscious as the story opens and "grows up"
marvelously throughout the story; the only mention of Loglan I've
seen in SF; and odd syntax.  [The syntax, which is obviously
intentional, sounds choppy for the first few pages but then you fall
into the swing of it and don't notice it until the next time you
start the book.  The first time I read it, I thought he was writing
in Basic English, but that isn't the case: someone who knows the
language informs me that it is written with Russian syntax.  This
makes sense as (a) in the story, Russian is the second major Lunar
language, and many Russian words are used in the text; (b)
Heinlein's wife was learning Russian at the time the book was being
written.]

--JoSH                          {"Think in Russian"}

ps: For more libertarian fiction, read the Federalist by Hamilton,
     Madison, and Jay.

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 84 14:26:01-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!res @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

An author who has done a good job in presenting aliens from the
aliens' point of view is C. J. Cherryh.  Her "Faded Sun" trilogy is
quite good in this regard.  "Pride of Chanur" is another such novel
that comes to mind.  I highly recommend her novels for good
character development as well as interesting plots.

                                        Rich Strebendt
                                        ihuxn!res

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 84 8:44:05-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Spock (retraction)

Try reading "The Pride of Chanur" by C. J. Cherryh if you want
interesting, non-human aliens.  The main characters (the cat-like
creatures) are pretty standard aliens, but all the others are quite
interesting, certainly unusual.  Even the bad guys are weird.
                Cliff Shaffer
                ...!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 7:15:49-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

Actually, an episode of Star Trek featured an intelligent alien
which was totally unlike humans.  I forget the name of the episode,
but the creature was a Horta.

"Alien" was also a good example of a non-human alien who displayed a
certain amount of intelligence.  Intelligent enough to make a ship
of human beings panic ...
                                              [This space available
                                               for rent.]
Greg Skinner (White Gold Wielder)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, whuxle, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
And he who wields white wild magic gold is a paradox ...

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 84 17:16:25-PDT (Wed)
From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

Eric Frank Russell had a number of well-developed non-humans in his
work. The chess-enthusiast martians of the Jay Score stories were
characters I enjoyed.  The martian poet who became the beloved elder
of a devasted Earth village in Dear Devil. It might also be fair to
include the dogs from Into Your Tent I'll Creep and the camels from
Homo Saps.

"I wish to hell I could get him writing again" -- John Campbell re
EFR
        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 7:14:00-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

>  An author who has done a good job in presenting aliens from the
>  aliens' point of view is C. J. Cherryh.  Her "Faded Sun" trilogy
>  is quite good in this regard.  "Pride of Chanur" is another such
>  novel that comes to mind.  I highly recommend her novels for good
>  character development as well as interesting plots.

I heartily agree, and would add her "Hunter of Worlds" to this list.
Perhaps the most serious flaw in her aliens is that they are almost
always humanoid (or, occasionally, modeled after some other Earth
animal--moles for one of the species in "Hunter", lions in "Pride").
Personally, I am inclined to overlook that flaw and just enjoy.  Few
other authors even attempt to treat things from a non-human point of
view.

It has been said (I don't have the reference handy) that the best
aliens ever were Asimov's in the second part of "The Gods
Themselves".  I tend to think that's true.

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 84 7:13:50-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens - (nf)

For fascinating non-human aliens, you should read Larry Niven.  He
has a number of good ones, the most conspicuous being the 'Moties'
from 'The Mote in God's Eye.'  Constantly throughout the book, we
are given the human point of view, and the characters treat them as
human--but we find out differently in the last one-fourth of the
book.

Another good Niven alien is the puppeteer--a being to whom cowardice
is honorable, a three-legged creature with two heads on stalks above
the main body...well, in Niven's words, imagine "a three-legged
Centaur without the human head, but with two Cecil the Sea-Sick Sea
Serpent puppets on stalks instead."  They pop up in many short
stories, and figure prominently in the two 'Ringworld' novels.

There are also the kzinti, a carniverous, war-like race of giant
orange cat-like beings...the Grogs, a telepathic race that can't
leave it's one planet, or even move around on it...the Slavers, the
ancient race that once ruled the Galaxy (also by telepathy) but was
too stupid to keep it...  the bandersnatchi, large white intelligent
slugs that make treaties with humans for mutual hunts...

I almost include Phsstpok the Pak and the Pak race with these, but
not quite.  While humans are the mutated breeder stage of the Pak,
humans and Pak are quite different in culture, drives, activities,
thought, etc.  The Pak race is the ultimate race of warriors, born
and bred for fighting and protecting their families--fast,
resourceful, incredibly tough, and frighteningly intelligent.

I hope I've whetted your appetite for these interesting and bizarre
characters.  I may have missed a few, but these are (in my humble
opinion) the best ones.  A short list of 'where to find them'
(albeit incomplete) follows:

Moties                  The Mote in God's Eye (novel)
Puppeteers              Ringworld (novel)
                        The Ringworld Engineers (novel)
                        Tales of Known Space (collection)
                        Neutron Star (collection)
Kzinti                  Ringworld/Ringworld Engineers
                        Tales of Known Space
                        Neutron Star
Slavers                 World of Ptaavs (novel)
Bandersnatchi           World of Ptaavs
Pak                     Protector (novel)
                        Ringworld Engineers

B.K. Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxs!okie

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 84 11:53:00-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

And let's not forget David Brin's Sundiver -- the alien called (I
think) Fagan was something a tree-like, broccoli-like creature.  And
he was a good guy, too.  A great book, BTW.

Marion Hakanson
CSnet:  hakanson@oregon-state
UUCP :  {hp-pcd,tektronix}!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 84 5:32:55-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

  What about all of the non-human aliens in 'Doc" Smith's Lensman
series?  They certainly looked nothing like us, but in many cases
were far superior to us.  Smith even had an elaborate way of
describing an alien, from AAAAAAAAA, or completely human to
ZZZZZZZZZ, or not at all like a human.

Ken Varnum
 {dartvax, cornell, astrovax}!decvax!kenv

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 84 15:53:53-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Best non-human aliens

I'd certainly agree that my favorite aliens are the threesome in
Asimov's "The Gods Themselves."  However, I refrained from posting
them as non-human because, apart from having three sexes in their
race, their personalities are quite human.  In fact, the whole race
is a parody (intentional or not, I don't know) on the Parent, Child,
and Adult of Transactional Analysis, a more-or-less serious
psychological movement started about 15 years ago.  One of the
beings is extremely emotional (Child), another very practical and
strict about the rules (Parent), and the third logical but curious
(Adult).  Come to think of it, they'd make a great movie.... mike k

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 9:29:07-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Non-human aliens

A very non-human alien was the title character of "The Black Cloud",
by Fred Hoyle.  (I don't think much of Hoyle's SF generally, but I
did like that one.  He wrote that one with a collaborator.)

Actually, I think aliens that are human-like in some behavior
patterns but not in others are probably more interesting.  And the
first one of those that comes to mind is Larry Niven's "puppeteers".
["But so what if the two of us had remained in stasis for 50,000
years?  Don't you see, we would not have had to leave the safety of
the ship!" -- paraphrase from one of the two Ringworld books]

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 84 10:22:25 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 1

                                 The Restaurant at the End of the Net
                                                           Episode 1

(Xaphod, Rod, Gillian, Martin, and Arnold Lint are on their way to
MicroWays: The Restaurant at the End of the Net.)

Arnold Lint:    What's this MircoWays place like?
Martin: It's awful.
Xaphod: Shut up, it's a wild place. What they did was place a
        restaurant at the exact time in the continuum at which the
        Net ends.  It's all very complicated, but you can dine while
        watching all the nodes and newsgroups you've come to know
        and despise vaporize in a great apocalyptic blaze.

[******************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the Net did
actually cease due to overpopulation. The volume of stupid and
useless comments (and their associated authors) got so compressed
that all activity stopped due to the immense amounts of time
required to sort through this black hole of mental ineptitude. A few
die hards kept on, however, in the hopes that the loyal followers
would again return. Legend has it that they followed the writings of
some mystical female netlander from the Valley (fershure!). This has
been widely disclaimed as gnarly to the max and highly unlikely.
******************************************************************]

Rod:    Yah, it's lovely!
Gillian:        Sounds fun.
Arnold Lint:    You mean the Net isn't forever?
Marvin: Fortunately not.
Arnold Lint:    Gee, it seems kind of pointless to go to so much
        trouble on the Net, knowing that it all is going up in the
        end anyway.
Marvin: Same with everything else in this seemingly endless lament we
        call life . . . why bother.
Xaphod: Quiet.

(A buzzer sounds and the Infinity's sensors show a squadron of ships
approaching. It's the Flamers!!)

Rod:    Oh heck, it's the bloody Flamers again. Don't those mindless
        oafs ever learn!?
Xaphod: Guess not.
Flamer Commander: Right, I thought we were rid of you lot. Push off
        or else.

(The Flamer commander looks a lot like Phil Donahue.)

Gillian:        Ah, go intercourse a leprous elk!
Arnold Lint:    Don't Flamers ever stop? I though they were under
        control a while ago.
Rod:    They were, but they've started another uprising.
Flamer Commander:       Right, assigned topics for discussion WILL be
        adhered to. Anything said which sounds like it might be
        important WILL be ignored. Full frontal lobotomies WILL be
        required.
Martin: I don't think he's too well.
Xaphod: That's an understatement.
Rod:    We better get out of here before they start up.
Flamer Commander:       First, lets discuss the social and political
        effects of shirtsleeves. Should they be rolled up? Left
        down? Or made a felony? Suppose if every American rolled up
        his shirt sleeves and every Commie didn't - where would we
        be then? If you are interested in having an incestuous
        relationship with your illegitimately pregnant sister, what
        impact will the length of your shirtsleeves have on her
        opinion of you? Is the shirtsleeve a phalic symbol? How many
        engineers does it take to sew a shirtsleeve?
Xaphod: STOP! STOP! STOP! What do you want from us?
Arnold Lint:    Wait, I was just getting interested.
Rod:    We better get ourselves out of here quick.
Flamer Commander:       Next, what about people who type in all lower
        case - does this make them homosexuals or ocelots?
Gillian:        Aaaarrrrgggghhh!!!!

      ******************** End Of Part 1 ********************

Will the crew of the Infinity once again escape the clutches of the
Flamers? Or will they start to question the sexual significance of
candlepin bowling? To find out . . . Tune in next time . . .  same
Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #107
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jun 84 1520-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:
            Books - Douglas Adams & Gilliland & Varley &
                    Libertarian SF & Aliens in SF,
            Films - Summer SF and Fantasy Films & High Speed Film &
                    2001/2010 & Temple of Doom (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 May 84 9:24:41-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!tellab1!rcl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Hitchhiker's guide, et al.

Has anyone heard anything about a fourth book in the Hitchhiker's
series?  I heard rumors about a year ago, but so far nothing has
happened.  According to the rumor, the book would be out sometime in
'84, and would be titled "Good Bye, and Thanks For the Fish!"

Also... Anyone else heard rumors about a Hitchiker's movie?

                                Ron Lewen
                                ....ihnp4!tellab1!rcl

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 84 19:16:55 EDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Techno-sf
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>
To: decvax!utzoo!yetti!ozan@UCB-VAX.ARPA

The Rosinante Books by Alexis Gilliland (is that spelled right?) are
pretty good.  There are 3 of the them and the titles are something
like 'LongShot for Rosinante', 'Pirates of Rosinante', and
'Revolution from Rosinante'.  I don't recall the order.  They were
published by Ballantine/DelRey.

                        Bertram Fegg Lives!
                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 84 10:57:17 EDT
From: Liz <SOMMERS@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Demon - John Varley

I picked this one up at Disclave...due to its price - it was the
only new book I bought at Disclave.  Still I think it was worth it.
It is a large trade paperback and is $6.95.

Demon is better than Titan, but I am not sure if it is better than
Wizard.  It is written so that it is possible to read it
independently of the other two, but you will enjoy it MUCH more if
you have read Titan and Wizard previously.

Demon picks up about twenty years after Wizard.  Gaea is crazier
than ever and Rocky has definitly been fired as the wizard.  Her
personality has been expanded in this book, succesfully in my
opinion.  Gaea is no longer the cardboard figure she had been in the
past two books.  Any mention of other characters would be a spoiler.

There are several surprises that are very un-Varley like in this
book but I think everyone will enjoy them.

The book is dedicated to Irving Thalberg, Vlad the Impaler and
Edward Teller - for good reason.

I finished the book BEFORE I got home from Disclave - and I do not
normally spend cons reading.  I could not put it down, however.  It
is one of the best SF books I have read this year (out of a sorry
lot for sure).

liz//

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 84 10:42:36-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!dartvax!lorien @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Wanted: Pointers to Ayn Rand and Libertarianism

I've just finished Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" and found it
stimulating and enjoyable.  Glancing through a book called "The
philosophical thought of Ayn Rand" in the book store today, I
noticed a reference to libertarian philosophy.  I've seen this
mentioned to several times on the net, but have never read anything
on it (or have I?).  Could someone tell me the connection between
this and Rand (I thought she was an Objectivist..?) and/or point me
towards some good discussions of libertarianism (?).

I'd also appreicate archives of the discussion I remember from
net.philosophy a few months back on Rand's ideas.  Any other
pointers will also be appreciated.

--Lorien Y. Pratt               "One can no more look at his mind
Dartmouth College Library        with his mind than see the pupils
Hanover, NH  03755               of his eyes with his eyes"
                                        --Hakuin
decvax!dartvax!lorien

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 84 8:04:57-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Best non-human aliens

        "I'd certainly agree that my favorite aliens are the
        threesome in Asimov's "The Gods Themselves."  However, I
        refrained from posting them as non-human because, apart from
        having three sexes in their race, their personalities are
        quite human.  In fact, the whole race is a parody
        (intentional or not, I don't know) on the Parent, Child, and
        Adult of Transactional Analysis, a more-or-less serious
        psychological movement started about 15 years ago.  One of
        the beings is extremely emotional (Child), another very
        practical and strict about the rules (Parent), and the third
        logical but curious (Adult)."

The three aliens also map into the three partitions of the mind in
Freud's psychoanalytic model: the child is the id, the adult is the
ego, and the parent is the superego.  This is not coincidence, as TA
is psychoanalysis rehashed.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 May 84 14:42:24 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: summer sf/fantasy films

Here's the lastest list, with opening dates for Los Angeles.  Most
will probably open on the same date in most other large American
cities.

June 1          "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock"
June 8          "Streets of Fire" (may be opening June 1)
                "Ghostbusters"
                "Gremlins"
June 22         "The Last Starfighter"
July 6          "Conan The Destroyer"
July 13         "The Philadelphia Experiment"
                "Supergirl" (I had heard a report that this would
                             be delayed until Christmas)
July 27         "The Neverending Story"
                "Visionquest" (not sure it's sf/fantasy, but
                               title sounds like it)
August 10       "Buckaroo Banzai"
August 13       "The Muppets Take Manhattan"
August 17       "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle"
                "Red Dawn"

Beware of the usual cancellations and changes of schedules.

A couple of these haven't been mentioned on sf-lovers before, so
I'll give a little more detail.  "Buckaroo Banzai" is "Unusual
sci-fi comedy with heroes, villains, and a rock & roll-lovin'
physicist."; John Lithgow, Peter Weller, Jeff Goldblum, and
Christopher Lloyd star.  "Red Dawn" is an "action thriller about a
Communist takeover of America", directed by John Milius, starring
Patrick Swayze and C. Thomas Howell.  (Quotes from Michael Auerbach,
"LA Weekly".)
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs

------------------------------

Date: Thu 31 May 84 19:29:54-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B>
Subject: High-speed film.

        Well, I had been told it was unlikely that I saw what I
thought I saw, so I checked. You CAN detect the flicker in TV and
movies, but only under good conditions. These are:

1: When an object moves rapidly past a strongly contrasting
background, you can detect the individual frames (as afterimages?).
It must move more than its own length each frame.

2: When an object moves across the screen quickly, and you track it
with your eyes, it remains blurred. This does not happen under
continuous light.

        I checked this out while watching GREYSTOKE (great movie) in
70 mm this weekend, and found scenes where both of these effects
could be observed. They did not come frequently, and then mainly in
highly active sequences when your mind is more on what is happening
to plot than on picking holes in the illusion. I wonder if directors
subconciously learn to advoid such scenes because they 'feel phony'.
Try looking for yourself; the easiest case is when a dark object
moves rapidly across the sky, when the strobing is sometimes visible
even on TV. Note when I say 'rapidly' I do not mean mph, but in time
from screen edge to screen edge. A big screen definitely helps, as
does sitting fairly close.

        If you still doubt that the eye can resolve single frames on
TV, consider the 'snow' on an unused channel. If you could not
resolve at TV speeds, it would look flat grey, no?

        Does anyone know when and why 24 fps became the accepted
standard?  I suspect that it was the lowest speed at which flicker
can almost always be ignored. At the time it was adopted, proabably
no one had done any real research into the use of higher rates due
to technical limitations. Even if they had, the studios would
probably have gone ahead with 24 fps to save on film. Similarly, why
was the higher frame rate for TV adopted? Phospher limitations?
Because it matches the AC line frequency?

        I am still looking forward to ShowScan, though I have heard
that the pizza/entertainment business is in a slump these days.

                                see you at DECUS,
                                        Peter Trei
                                        Oc.Trei%cu20b@Columbia-20
                                        212-5690282
                                        (dani, whats your phone?)

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 84 10:11:49-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re:Re: 2001/10

[Is this food for thought? Or thought for food?]
>                                ...I doubt, really, whether any SF
> movie, 2001 apart, qualifies as a Great Film, and it'll probably
> be a while before there's another (OK maybe Solaris - personally I
> fell asleep).  Whatever one may think about the Lucases and
> Spielbergs of this world they are not in the same league as
> Kubrick,and we should just be grateful for good workmanlike
> enjoyable SF films to keep rolling out (Close Encounters
> excepted).  Let's all bear in mind Sturgeon's Law
>  "90% of everything is crap".
>           so long, and thanks for all the fish,
>            deryk.

        Disagree. "2001" may be more profound than "Star Wars", but
that doesn't make it better, or mean it took more talent to make.
        I would list the following SF films as Great Films:
                2001
                A Clockwork Orange
                Star Wars
                Close Encounters of the Third Kind
        This list is not exhaustive, either, but since the subject
was Kubrick/Lucas/Spielberg...
                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:          {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 1984  05:42 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Never order out in India...

Well, I caught IJatToD (gee, finally a pronounceable acronym)
tonight.  Giving that it's 5am local and I've been hacking
punch-down blocks all night, some impressions:

First off, not a movie for the very young. While it is in no way
outstanding in terms of gore, it does rate up there in
nightmare-producing potential. I know there were scenes that had
*me* squirming in my seat (I have trouble dealing with insects...).

It's certainly well paced. The consensus among the people I went to
the show with was that we all needed a good rest after it was done.

The logical Karen Allen actress did a good job, in a tricky part.
How'd *you* like to have to play against an overblown persona like
Jones?

And, of course, all the jokes, chase scenes, desperate situations,
and stunts we've come to know and love. Really impressive was a
single camera, no cut, skydive gag.

I know who *I'd* like to own a 1% share in this summer...

                        Sorting 50-Pair Cable,
                        James
                        ARPA:JMTURN@MIT-MC
                        Usenet: Left as an exercise to the reader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 May 84  9:50:14 EDT
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBN-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: Indiana Jones **spoiler??[A

        Hello,
              I just saw Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and
        while not spoiling anything (unlike the trailers) the name
        of the cafe in the beginning was named OB-wan cafe.
              Just thought it was funny...
                                                craig

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 84 22:50:51 edt
From: Beth Gazouleas <beth%Upenn-ASP%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Indiana Jones, not a spoiler

What did everyone think of the new Indiana Jones movie?  i rather
enjoyed it, though I did think it got somewhat gross at points.
Around the middle of the movie I decided I'd seen TOO many insects.
The experience of seeing the movie was rather aptly compared to
riding 12 roller coasters, one right after another.  I didn't breath
much 'til it was over, I was too busy gasping.  I won't review it in
detail, for fear of spoiling it for those who haven't seen it yet.
But I will say that I recommend seeing it.  It wasn't nearly as good
as the first movie, but it was fun.  And despite some mixed reviews,
I think everyone should see it once and form their own opinions.

         beth
         (beth%upenn-asp@upenn@csnet-relay)

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 84 18:10:41-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!greg @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Indiana Jones - Non-Spoiler

Just saw "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" this afternoon.
Overall, it's lots of fun.  The previous note that suggested that
you would need your pacemakers was not too far off.  Action is fast,
furious, and funny.  I'm not quite as satisfied with IJATOD as I was
with ROTLA because some of the sequences are just a bit too
outrageous and required too much suspension of disbelief.

Since this claims to be a non-spoiler, I won't say anything specific
about the plot, but I will say that it features lots of good ideas
for dinner with your mother-in-law....  (Or maybe for your boss?)

I wasn't bored.....  And I'll go back to see it again.

Greg Noel, NCR Torrey Pines
Greg@sdcsvax.UUCP or Greg@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 84 7:05:34-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxx!dpa @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones - Non-Spoiler (Non-Spoiler)

I agree with Greg Noel conserning IJatToD.  I counted 3 incidents,
two at the beginning and 1 near the end, that belonged in a 3
Stooges short.  One other point is that there is a great deal of
graphic violence in the film.  For some reason, the movie is rated
PG but I'm not sure I'd want my 10 year old, if I had one, seeing
this.  Well, other than being briefly ridiculous and getting grossed
out from time to time, I did enjoy the film.  The escape sequence at
the end was spectacular and as good or better than anything in
RotLA.  -- Dave Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 May 84 19:52 PDT
From: Harris Shiffman <Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Indy II & ST III

Just came out of a showing of Indiana Jones And The Temple of Doom.
Without revealing anything about plot, I would say that this film is
even more exciting and faster-paced than Raiders.  One warning: do
not (and I repeat, NOT) eat immediately before going to the theatre.
A second warning: if you're the squeamish type (as I am), avoid the
first ten to fifteen rows of the theatre, depending upon screen
size.  Things get a tad gross during the first half hour to
forty-five minutes.

Indy II was preceded by a trailer for Star Trek III, wherein the
Enterprise, with Kirk et. al. in residence, is having the royal
feces knocked out of it by a Klingon battlecruiser, along with a
voice-over which announces "The Last Voyage of The Sharship
Enterprise".  Looks like fun.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #108
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jun 84 1239-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #108
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:
        Books - Hoyle & Varley & Soviet SF &
                SF vs Mainstrem Literature (3 msgs),
        Films - Long Lines & Dune & The Reason for 24 fps &
                Star Wars (2 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jun 84 02:01 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Fred Hoyle

Sorry you're wrong - "The Black Cloud" was one of Hoyle's solo
efforts - most of his books after this were written in collaboration
with his son Geoffrey - but not TBC.
          so long, and thanks for all the fish,
           deryk.

------------------------------

Subject: Demon
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 84 08:49:06 EDT
From: Peter Midford <Midford@YALE.ARPA>

Here's another enthusiastic vote for Demon, definitely the best book
I've read this year.

kir azu,
Peter.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 84 2:18:15-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: SOVIET SCIENCE FICTION

Just for the record, Asimov did *not* edit SOVIET SCIENCE FICTION
and MORE SOVIET SCIENCE FICTION; he merely provided the
introductions. The lack of credit for an editor (seems to me I
should know who edited them, it must be in Tuck's SF Encyclopedia,
if not Nicholls') has lead many to believe that Asimov was the
editor.

                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 23 May 84 13:52:14 EDT
Subject: The Failed Promise

For those of you who just tuned in (or those of you who just
switched the channel from watching V) the foofaraw is currently
about whether or not mainstream literature will be absorbed by SF
within the coming century.  I say it will.  Others, notably Reiher &
Cain, say no way.

I see the situation this way: SF is broadening year by year, growing
less completely technological and less adventure oriented, and seems
to be heading toward a general understanding of the way human beings
operate within today's (and possibly tomorrow's) universe.

Mainstream, on the other hand, has been growing steadily more
introspective, more limited in scope, and always more prone to
despair, ever since the end of the Victorian era.  Mainstream in the
last fifty years has contracted so much I greatly fear it will
vanish into its own self-made singularity, leaving behind a single
message: It's all pointless!

So what's better?  What is more "true"?  What the heck is literature
for, anyway?

My definition is this (I've said it here before): Literature is the
mapping of the human spirit by the language of the culture.
Literature is NOT the culture, nor does it direct the culture.  It
follows the culture, and reflects those things in which the culture
believes most strongly.  My opinion is that the literature of the
past fifty years comes nowhere near an accurate reflection of
American or British culture.  (I can't speak for other cultures.)
The optimism of the postwar period is unequalled in history.  And
yet what are we offered?  Despair, despair, despair.  "We are the
hollow men/We are the stuffed men/" Crap.  We rate a little better
than that.

Something broke when the Victorians gave way.  I feel something of
the spirit which prompted Tennyson to write, in "Locksley Hall":

Down along the beach I wandered, nourishing a youth sublime/ With
the fairy tales of science, and the long result of time.

"Fairy tales" implies not ridicule but wonder, here.  Tennyson was
not afraid of science, nor did he hold it in disdain.  He was ready
to wait out the long result of time and see what happened.

The literature of the last fifty years seems to have been written by
broken old men who prefer to make literature reflect their own
failings rather than the larger mythic consciousness of their
people.

I suppose it's impossible to say with certainty whether a work of
literature is good or not.  So I guess this whole argument settles
down to a draw.  I accuse the mainstream of failing to accurately
reflect our twentieth century culture which is not, I hold, a
culture in the grip of despair.

I also think that day by day, as our writers grow better, SF more
accurately reflects the underlying optimism of the postwar era.

Who's right?  Who knows?

You tell me.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 May 84 17:45:58-PDT
From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Literature of Hope/Despair

        Regarding Jeff Duntemann's reply to my statement about there
not being a science/art split and about SF not being mature...
        We definitely DO NOT agree.  And you do not have my
endorsement.
        I still feel strongly that the science/art split is much
more complex than you think.  Whether someone sees his own
discipline as "the frosting on the cake" or as "the whole cake" is
clearly a matter of individual perception -- it is not inherent in
the discipline.  Any you clearly voice your own perceptions.
        Why pile the blame for despair on mainstream?  Why give the
gift of hope solely to SF (my god, what literature has more
thoroughly wallowed in galactic destruction?)?  If you feel all of
mainstream literature is the voice of existential despair and has
died, then might I suggest you read the wrong stories?  Credentials
(e.g. majors in English) don't do it.
        I have my own opinions about existential despair and young
scientists, but I'll deliver that one on request only.
        I still maintain SF has not matured appreciably in 40 years.
Re-written westerns and romances on far-flung worlds, yes.  Codified
the rules of FTL travel, sensors, and photon torpedoes, yes.  But SF
is still a special-interest genre, and it does reject alot of new
blood if the rules aren't followed.  I, too, want it to grow.  Up.
        I like SF (surprised?), but only about 10 percent of it.
        I like mainstream (but only about 10 percent of it).
        However, if you feel STARTIDE RISING (which I place solidly
in the unfortunate 90 percent) is genuinely an example of the
maturity (or quality) of SF, then I guess it demonstrates we are not
all of us alike.
                                                        ... ron cain
                                                        (cain@sri-ai)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 84  14:59 EDT (Sat)
From: _Bob <Carter@RUTGERS>
To: duntemann.wbst@XEROX
Subject: Bridge over troubled writers

    From: duntemann.wbst at XEROX.ARPA

    While grubbing for my B.A. in English, I was forced to wade
    through volumes of otherwise sensible men wailing over the death
    of God, over the lack of meaning in the universe, and lord only
    knows what else.  When my instructor earnestly stated that the
    central question confronting modern man is "Why not commit
    suicide?" (this after two volumes of Camus)

    *  *  *

    The reason for that is that they KNOW, on some subconscious
    level, that they don't have the experience to understand the
    forces that have begun shaping tomorrow.  Mainstream literature
    has hit a dead end.  The people who write it can no longer, um,
    grok the wholeness of human experience because they failed
    Physics for Poets and think math is for nerds.

right *O*N*

_B

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 84 16:14:21 PDT
From: Scott Turner <srt@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Indy II & ST III

I heard on the radio Friday morning that no one waited out overnight
to see Star Trek III (in Hollywood, that is).  Rather surprising,
considering that Indy II had people sleeping out 2 nights in
advance.  From the lines I've seen, I'd say that Indy II is
outselling ST III even during prime time.
                                                        -- Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 16:52:49 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: trailer for "Dune"

I saw a trailer for "Dune" yesterday, for the first time.  It looks
weird, unfamiliar, and very interesting.  Lots of action in the
trailer, too.  It looks, from the trailer, like they really should
have gotten Orson Welles instead of Kenneth MacMillan to play Baron
Harkonnen.  MacMillan looks faintly ridiculous. Besides, "We shall
sell no spice before its time." was such a great line.  The trailer
says very little about the plot, and shows relatively few effects.
We get a momentary closeup of what is probably a Guild navigator's
face, but no sign of the worms.
                                        Peter

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 16:48 MST
From: "Jerry Crow"@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Reason for 24 fps
Reply-to: JCrow%PCO-Multics@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA

     >Does anyone know when and why 24 fps became the accepted
     >standard?  I suspect that it was the lowest speed at which
     >flicker can almost always be ignored. ....

I believe the 24 fps speed is the minimum speed required for lip
sync -- i.e, the minimum speed at which the sound track can be
synchronized with lip motion and have the latter appear natural.

/Jerry
JCrow%PCO-Multics@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 84 7:08:58-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader)

[that armor's too strong for blasters!]

>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though.

> Oh, yeah?  Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi when
> Vader threw the Emperor down that pit?

Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker
(from a certain point of view).  :-)

-King
 ARPA:ables@ut-ngp
 UUCP:{ctvax,ihnp4,kpno,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Jun 84 18:26:28-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Star Wars

I'm sure that this will seem like sacrilege to many people, but it
has to be said. Star Wars is NOT a great movie. It was a lot of fun,
but it had holes in the science, in the characterization, in the
'drama', etc.  that you could drive a truck through. I really
enjoyed it the first time I saw it. I thought it was pretty cool the
second time. I will avoid seeing it again for many years, because I
almost certainly wouldn't enjoy it now.  I am not coming out in
favor of any other SF movie as 'great' either, since I haven't seen
any other twice. On the other hand, there are only 3 that I might
think were great if I had.
        First Obi Wan, then Darth; I can't wait for Luke...

                                        Jacob Butcher

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 84 10:23:00 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 2

                                 The Restaurant at the End of the Net
                                                           Episode 2

(Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are once again faced by the
dreaded Flamers. The Flamers are bombarding our heroes with an
infinitely pointless diatribe on the legal points of rolling up ones
shirtsleeves.)

Gillian:        What can we do to stop this?
Martin: Why bother, it's all hopeless anyway.
Rod:    Look you, I've had just about enough of your lip.
Martin: I don't have lips, I'm afraid. My assembler must have been in
        a bad mood and forgot them . . . ah well (sigh).
Gillian:        Well, we better do something!!
Xaphod: We've tried everything else, why don't we try to out-stupid
        them?
Arnold Lint:    Don't you need at least a Master's in Computer
Science to attempt that?
Rod:    Yah, but let's try anyway!!
Xaphod: Right, what's the most idiotic topic we can throw at them?
Gillian:        Spelling mistakes in Net submissions?
Xaphod: No.
Rod:    Profanity on the Net?
Xaphod: No. I'm afraid this won't work.
Arnold Lint:    What will we do?
Flamer: Now, let's turn our attention to the psycho-sexual
        ramifications of user's having to hit the 'n' key
        repetitively when reading Netnews. Does this form a
        non-compliant attitude that is reflected in the individuals
        sex life? If Netnews becomes too dull, will we all go
        sterile from the 'n-key' complex?
Gillian:        I can't take it.
Rod:    There's one last hope. If we pray to the goddess of the Net,
        we may be saved.
Arnold Lint:    The what?
Martin: You really don't want to hear this.

Xaphod: Quiet. The goddess of the Net - Laedeyarh-wehn-kenobi.
        Legend has it she is from the Valley and has amazing powers
        over some denizens of the Net.
Arnold Lint:    What kind of power?
Xaphod: I don't know, but her followers even chipped in for air fare
        so she could sing "Let's get physical" at the Superbowl
        half-time.
Rod:    (Seeing Arnold Lint's look of disgust) Yah, a pretty sick
        bunch.
Gillian:        Well, it's worth a shot.
Xaphod: Okay, when I signal you, chant 'fershure' three times.
Others: Right.
Xaphod: Oh Laedeyarh-wehn-kenobi, protect us from these
        grody-to-the-max flamers.
Others: Fershure! Fershure! Fershure!
Xaphod: Oh Laedeyarh-wehn-kenobi, vanquish these flamers with a
        totally awesome laser blast.
Others: Fershure! Fershure! Fershure!

(From out of nowhere a high pitched, whining voice is heard to say
"Oh wow, flamers. Like, gag me with a spoon." The flamers ships then
implode into nothingness. The voice then says "Far out! Like, may the
force be, like, with you, you know." Arnold Lint and the Infinity
crew are left standing on the bridge looking into the newly empty
space before them.)

Rod:    That was amazing!
Xaphod: That was amazingly amazing.
Martin: Wasn't all that great.
Arnold Lint:    That has to be the most impressive display of power in
the Net!

[*********************************************************************
"The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the most
impressive display of power in the Net was the result of the actual
cooperation of subscribers of net.singles, net.flame, AND
net.religion. According to the story, this unholy trinity was capable
of twisting even the most simple of statements into states of
uncomprehensibly circuitous illogic. The group went their separate
ways when the net.religion group called the net.singles group immoral
sexual deviants and the net.flame group blaspheming agnostics who
would all burn in hell. The net.flames group fried the net.religion
group, but agreed that the net.singles group were real sick. The
net.singles group had an orgy.
********************************************************************]

Rod:    Well, lets get going to Microways.
Arnold Lint:    Yah, I'm getting hungry.
Gillian:        I hope the food is good.
Martin: I'm sure it will be awful. We'll all get food poisoning and
        die in convulsive fits, spitting up bits of intestine and
        semi-digested fruit cup.

      ******************** End Of Part 2 ********************

What will be on the menu at Microways? Is the roast beef purple? To
find out . . . Tune in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same
Net-channel.

     ***************That's All Folks **************************

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #109
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jun 84 1308-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #109
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
        Television - V: The Final Battle (6 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - Aliens in SF & Blowing Up Planets &
                        Drying Planets & How to Get Rich (4 msgs) &
                        Thermdynamics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 May 84 18:18 EDT
From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Re: V: The Series Worse than Lost in Space

For shame!  Picking on poor TV series that never made the slightest
claim to be real SF.  I enjoyed Lost in Splace once (when I was 5),
and I even though Space:1999 was amusing (when I was 8).  You can't
judge a series without considering its target market.

Does this save V?  Hard to say.  My youngest sister (age 7) liked
it.  Maybe it's time us poor, overly-intelligent adults abandoned
television as we keep threatening to and move on to other (and
better) topics.

--Jim (no longer age 8)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 May 84 14:23 CST
From: Nichael Cramer <cramer%ti-csl.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Cc: korfhage@ucla-cs.arpa
Subject: TV SCIENCE[???] FICTION[???????]

        I'm afraid I really don't understand all the gibberish that
thrown around on this net and all the time wasted on that piece of
**** called "V".  For god's sake people, this was a TELEVISION show!
Of course it was illogical!  Of course any and all science was
wrong!  TV has NEVER shown any sign of being capable of producing
anything of any technical sophistication or subtlety.  After years
of such intelligence-insulting drivel as "STAR TREK" and "THE DAY
AFTER" written and package for eight-year-olds [of all ages], why do
you suddenly show outrage when they produce another trash-heap like
"V"?
        One of the most insidious effects of TV is the way it shuts
its victims off from other sources.  As a specific example, in the
current round of suggestions for future SF movies was a call for
Miller's "Canticle For Liebowitz".  If you can pull yourself away
for your glass teat long enough, you'll find that NPR's Radio
Theater is currently playing an excellent version of "Canticle" [it
played here in Dallas about two months ago].  These people have also
done magnificent jobs with "STAR WARS" and "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK"
as well as playing "HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY".

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 84 13:52:02-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!oliveb!oliven!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Space nazis and people who complain

The last set of three V episodes (in my opinion) fall into
two categories --

Day 1&2 --  Pretty interesting, good character development
            (I especially liked the mercenaries) and lots
            of blasters-and-bullets action.  The narrated
            intro's sounded like something from The Untouchables
            and should have been left out entirely.

Day 3   --  I liked the first 2/3 of the show for the same
            reason as above.
            But the last 3rd of the show seemed like the
            writers went on strike and the NBC executives
            had to pit their tiny little brains against
            each other and dig up an ending!  Ugh!  They
            REALLY screwed up the ending so badly that it
            seemed like I changed channels to the Disney
            channel (which no one should be subjected to...)
            and had somehow brought the V characters with
            me.

What a "Waste of good luggage!"

>From the people who cancelled Star Trek, what else would expect?

        Gary

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 84 18:09:01-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader)

[that armor's too strong for blasters!]

>>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though.

>> Oh, yeah?  Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi when
>> Vader threw the Emperor down that pit?

>Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker
>(from a certain point of view).  :-)

        Also, Diane didn't off the "emperor", she offed John.
    The emperor was back on the homeworld.

                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 84 4:27:21-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!c
From: hris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Complaints

Actually, I'm too lazy to write letters to TV studios, etc.  I just
don't watch TV.  Aside from ``accidental'' viewing (e.g., at a
friend's house), I haven't seen any televised programs in several
years.  I can't say I miss any of it, either.

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 84 14:48:48-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader)

>>>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though.

>>> Oh, yeah?  Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi when
>>> Vader threw the Emperor down that pit?

>>Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker
>>(from a certain point of view).  :-)

>       Also, Diane didn't off the "emperor", she offed John.
>    The emperor was back on the homeworld.

But before that she shot John's superior (and the most superior one
on the ship), the character played by Sarah Douglas.

(This is amazing!  This is one of the most interesting discussions
I've seen and, so far, the whole damn thing fits on one screen!)

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 84  15:36 EDT (Sun)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Reply-to: Lecin@Ru-Blue
Subject: [ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds at Ucb-Vax] - Non-human aliens

    Actually, an episode of Star Trek featured an intelligent alien
    which was totally unlike humans.  I forget the name of the
    episode, but the creature was a Horta.

This Star Trek episode was entitled "Devil in the Dark".  The Horta
was a lifeform based on silicon as opposed to carbon, as we human
types are.  Dr. McCoy gets to use his famous "I'm a doctor, not a
brick layer!" line when Kirk wants him to patch the wounded Horta
up.  McCoy then decides that he is capable of "even curing a rainy
day" when he succeeds in patching the Horta up with some silicon
based CEMENT he had beamed down from the Enterprise...

Die Young, Stay Pretty;
{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 84 13:39:47-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!ethan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: blowing up planets

<Woodman spare my planet>

Sorry for the science but,

Hutch writes:
>One thing that may be being overlooked is the source of the
>higher-numbered elements.  There is to my knowledge no reason
>for the Big Bang to have produced anything more complicated than
>hydrogen, directly.

According to the standard model the early universe contained matter
which was predominantly hydrogen, but about 1/4 (by mass) helium.
All heavier elements were made subsequently inside stars.  A point
which tends to confirm this is that the oldest stars are very poor
in elements heavier than helium whereas young stars are a few
percent heavier elements.

"Only perverts use cute signoffs."
Ethan Vishniac
{kpno,charm,ut-sally}!utastro!ethan

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 13:24:32-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!dual!amd70!fortune!wdl1!jme @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: drying planets...

>>  1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally
>>  "drying" up, for any number of reasons....

> Okay, what are some of those reasons?  Did everyone decide to
> drink at the same time?  (Or is it flush?)

Planet-wide drought, caused by imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen
mixture of the planet's atmosphere.

The same, caused by the planet moving out of orbit (closer to its
sun).

The same, caused by contamination of the planet's atmosphere
(perhaps natural, perhaps not).

> And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does
> disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of
> the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted from
> any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to hauling
> megamass of water over interstellar distances.

That is assuming those type of planets exist in their solar system.
If they don't, they must come to other planets.  And if they are
going to do that, they might as well get water in its natural form
(even if they have to steal it) rather than go to Jupiter and do it
the hard way.
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds

You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days.

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 84 16:06:36-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf)

> What about buying the newspaper from the day after the $20,000,000
> lottery numbers are drawn by leaping into the future and leaping
> back to buy the ticket?  How do we know this hasn't been done?

Won't work unless you can jump to the exact spot where the winning
ticket is.  That requires clairvoyance.  Time machines don't give
away all the answers ...
                                        Be ye moby,
                                        for I am moby.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds

Joy is in the ears that hear.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 May 84 15:10:46 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  How to get rich with a time machine - (nf)

Those of us who are members of the Committee for Real Time deplore
those of you coniving on how to make personal advantage of time
travel.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 84 16:27:47-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf)

>Won't work unless you can jump to the exact spot where the winning
>ticket is.  That requires clairvoyance.  Time machines don't give
>away all the answers ...

  Not all state lotteries work like that, however.  In Massachusetts
(and therefore at MIT!) you simply pick a series of numbers.  The
drawing is done by generating a sequence of numbers.  The jackpot is
divided between all who have matching numbers.  Sometimes it's no
one, sometimes it's four or five people.  (If you have two identical
tickets, you get two shares!  This happened to some lucky fool a few
weeks ago who accidently bought two of the same ticket.)
  So, the method of buying that paper and going back in time would
work, if you were playing Megabucks (the aforementioned lottery
game.)
                        Mark Vita
                        Dartmouth College
                        {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1984 1548-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Reply-to: Sander at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: How to get poor via time travel

In reply to all the "sell gas to Patton" ways to get rich all one
has to look at is the price of gas today and in 1944-45. Even with
the war and rationing gas still sold at about $.30 - $.40 per
gallon. Even if Patton was extremely rich and would by your gas how
can you make money buying $1.20 per gallon gas and selling it for
say $.50 - $.60 per gallon (Patton wouldn't pay $1.40 or so for
gas). That is more like how to get poor via time travel.

        There are better ways to get rich via time travel. Get into
your trusty time machine go back to say 1787 or so and get a job of
some sort.  work for a month or two and take your money and come
back to the present.  You now have in your hands some very rare 1787
currency that a coin collector will pay through the nose to have (if
you can find one with a large nose and a big wallet). The same is
true of Stamps. Just a very small investment in something that is
insignificant enough to upset history (would anyone notice a couple
of pennies, dimes and nickels and a few 1/2 cent stamps????). Going
back and picking up a few pounds of Gold from Sutters mill or
winning the lottery could upset the flow of history enough to cause
catastrophic results today.

        Enough for now...

        Anybody want to buy some mint condition 1787 $1 bills??

        Warren Sander           Sander @ Dec-marlboro

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 May 84 10:53:13-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Second Law of Thermdynamics

In my opinion, the best discussion of the controversy concerning the
Second law of Thermdynamics is contained in

        Natural Philosophy of Cause and Chance - Max Born

(Dover pb).  If you are interested, go read the book.  If you are
interested enough to put up with an overbrief summary, one follows.

First, there is no such law in a Newtonian universe.  The analysis
of this problem by the Ehrenfests has suffered no serious challenge,
and it shows

(a) The motion of Newtonian particles is fully reversible; that is,
    there is no "arrow of time"

(b) the theorems of Laplace and Zermelo, that a collection of
    Newtonian particles will eventually return arbitrary closely to
    its initial configuration (provided it has negative total
    energy), are valid.

(c) the proofs of the "law" are circular.  In particular, the
    H-theorem, which is the statistical-mechanical foundation of the
    law, can be proved only by fudging the collision integral to
    contain an assumption of intrinsic randomness.  This proves that
    a collection of ordered particles, subjected to random forces,
    will become disordered. That is not quite good enough.

Secondly, while there is a direction of time in most quantum
theories, there is not an absolute second law either.  In
particular, there are objects that cannot be brought into thermal
equilibrium with their surroundings, and so adiabatic
transformations cannot generally be made on such objects.  Most
"proofs" of increasing entropy in fact prove that quantum systems
are "more likely" to evolve towards more disordered states.  This
unfortunately does not prove that there is a secular increase in
entropy, since the unlikely events may correspond to very large
changes.  As an analogy, a sawtooth curve slopes downhill "almost"
everywhere, but its average height remains the same.

It would be too much of a digression to discuss those cosmological
theories that predict violations of the FIRST law of thermodynamics.

Robert Firth

PS: "What one man is able to imagine, other men will be able to do"
    (Jules Verne)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #110
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jun 84 1349-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #110
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

The Moderator

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 84 09:59:30 PDT (Friday)
From: Conde.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Early Review of Star Trek III

I saw the Search for Spock early last night, and I found it much
more enjoable than, say Indiana Jones and the Temple of Money (I
know I'm comparing apples and oranges).  I know that I'm
tremendously biased, but this was just as good as the second movie.

It kept you guessing all the way, it had the adventure we remember
from the "Khan", but on the other hand, managed to involve the
characters as we expect from a normal episode. Rather than making
this a reunion, they showed the problems with having a 20 year old
ship and old crew members.  The treatment of Kirk's son, David was
rather superficial, and I would have wanted more. On the other hand,
we saw a lot of Savik, the vulcan woman who we saw in "Khan". To me,
she is beginning to remind me of a regular crew member. There was a
lot of humor in this movie that uplifted it, in spite of the tragedy
that surrounds it. There was a lot crammed into this movie, and the
movie went by quickly. And yes, I won't tell you what happens at the
end. But here's a hint. The credits in the theater handouts gave no
clue as to what happenes.

Here are some objections that I have. (**Extra** spoiler warning)

The bit about Savik helping out the young Spock going through
"pains" was awkward. What's going on there? What she supposed to
do??

The women standing around the Vulcan ceremony was totally out of
place with inappropriate dress. It spoils the atmosphere.

They BLEW UP THE ENTERPRISE!!!! <TOTALLY> unforgivable! But boy, did
it go out in style! Of course, they could build a better one in the
next movie.

The Klingon ship seems to change size. When it's standing head to
head with the Enterprise, it looks about the same size. Yet it's
supposed to be a small scout ship. The Klingons do have a lot of
character in this movie. Different Klingons DO have different
personalities!

David's killed too quickly. It's done too callously, but come to
think of it, he does act as what Kirk's son would do.

The Excelsior looks miserable. Some improvement!

Bar scene seems rather gimicky. Too much of that Star Wars influence
here.

My favorite line:

Klingon: "Aren't you going to kill me?"
Kirk:    "No, so I lied."

Dan Conde

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 84 14:48:56 EDT (Friday)
Subject: The Search For Spock
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>

Well, I'll try not to spoil it for you...

A good movie, much better than TMP, but just as good as TWOK.

The ladies in the flimsy gowns shouldn't have been there.

Klingons are interesting and their ships are nifty.

They really tried to get their money's worth from the smoke
machines.  The whole cast will probably get lung cancer.

Go see it.
                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 1984 17:14:33-EDT
From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY
Subject: STIII

Just got back from seeing the afternoon show.  Really good.  My
first complaint is that there should have been less time spent on
flashbacks to the last movie.  Perhaps more time spent on the
Grissom battle.  My second complaint is that I find the need for
'proto-matter' totally irrelevant to the story.  I guess it's better
than stealing water...

Anybody for calling this movie  'grep spock *' ?????

raz

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 84 18:35:15 PDT (Fri)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: Star Trek III

Well.  As a friend I saw the movie with said as we were leaving
after the film: "This is probably the first film in film history
devoted entirely to reclaiming a character."  In fact, as I sit here
typing, I am getting a verbal review... "stock effects"..."cliches,
and good lines" "a reasonably nice story"..."there was actually a
plot and things happened" "space mat work not that good in general,
but some was well done"...  "good fractal fire scenes"... "I'd give
it three stars"... "worth seeing" "restrained use of special
effects, heavy use of funny lines"

I mostly agree with the above comments, but I'd like to add that the
Star Trek people are still doing the things we all forgave them for
in the 60's -- scantily clad women, alien cultures borrowing too
heavily from earth's own cultures, really horrible nasty ugly mean
aliens, (Romulans? Klingons? Who can tell, they keep changing
them...), and of course what I call the "Teela Brown Syndrom", the
ever-present nick-of- time luck that Kirk never loses.  I must
admit that there were some very funny lines, but the dialog and
script were inconsistant and there were also some pretty terrible
lines.  I especially like one particular choice of casting, and Hill
Street Blues fans will note character Howard Hunter present in a
rather fitting role.

Should you go see it?  If you saw and loved both of the other S.T.
movies, by all means see this one.  If your response to the others
was "eh" consider a theater that has discount prices for early
shows.  If you hated the other two movies then why are you reading
this review?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 84 13:53:36 EDT
From: Ed <Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: ST III (not a spoiler)

Just came out from seeing Star Trek III, and, without giving away
any of the plot, I thought it was a very good film. Maybe a little
too hard to believe, but I guess it was simply following the basic
SF rule - start with a fantasy premise, but make the story
believable afterwards. For anyone who has seen it yet, however: at
one point several actors (no names mentioned) were looking up at the
sky from a planet and seeing something burning (am not saying what
it was), and seeing smoke trailing from it. How can smoke exist in
space, where there is not atmosphere to hold it? Or could that have
been light deflected from particles from the burning object?

-Not adverse to waiting in long lines (for a purpose),
-Ed Blanchett

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  3 Jun 84 00:59:25 CDT
From: Stan Barber <sob@rice.ARPA>
Subject: ST III <non-spoiler>
Cc: stan@rice.ARPA, phil@rice.ARPA, wert@rice.ARPA, rbbb@rice.ARPA,
Cc:         fbag@rice.ARPA

Having just seen the new Star Trek Movie on Friday, I decided to
wait and see what effect the events in the film had on me before
attempting to verbalize it.

A bit of backround: I have been involved in Star Trek since the
beginning having watched all the original episodes when they
originally ran and many times thereafter. I have the books, comics,
compendiums, maps, etc. etc.  etc. I guess I am a Trekkie, Trekker
or whatever one calls devotees of Gene Roddenberry's creation.

Here is my thoughts::::::
ST III was the aftermath of ST II, an epilogue more than anything
else.  Yes, there is action and yes, what happens is important.
However, the movie plays heavily on what has happened before
(including what happened in the TV series). If you have not been
familiar with the ST mythos, the movie will be confusing (not that
it won't entertain, but knowing what happens when Kirk tells the
computer "Zero, Zero, DESTRUCT, Zero" and how such a tactic was used
before makes understanding the situation all the more vivid). True
Trekkies/Trekkers will love the movie cause it deals with the people
of Star Trek in an even deeper and more meaningful manner than ever
before. Those attached to certain familiar things in the ST world
may be a bit upset.

It is evident that there will be more Star Trek, but at the end of
the film I was unsure of the road the next movie would take. ST IV
will not be the continuing voyages of the Starship Enterprise and it
is not evident at all what will be the fate of the main ST
characters as a result of the action in this film. Truly, STIV will
be a surprise in many ways and is wide open in terms of available
plots and character involvement.

I liked the movie, but it only whetted my desire to see more.
Commercially, this would be termed a success. Artistically, I see it
as a postlude and a prelude and I am not sure I am patient enough to
wait. I guess I have no choice.

Spock is dead! Long Live Spock!
The Enterprise is dead! .....

Stan Barber
sob@rice

------------------------------

Date: Sun 3 Jun 84 16:09:18-PDT
From: Karl Geiger <Karl@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek III

is every bit as satisfying as hoped for.  This review is a spoiler
so don't read further is you want to be surprised.

Yes the teasers and trailers in theatres and MTV are right: Kirk
dons a leather jacket and takes the Enterprise on its final joyride.
This film is the conclusion to Star Trek II and the career of the
Enterprise.

The story picks up right where Star Trek II leaves off.  Kirk's son
and Saavik are exploring the Genesis planet created in the previous
film.  The battered and blackened Enterprise and her crew limp home
to dock with a humongous space station in Earth orbit.

All is not well, however.  McCoy is behaving strangely, as though
posessed by some other intelligence.  The Enterprise, now
twenty-years old, is destined for the scrap heap, too badly
batttle-damaged to refit.  Back on the Genesis planet, wierd noises
and bush-rattlings lead Saavik and David on a chase through the
jungles.  And Ambassador Sarek, Spock's dad (played againn by Mark
Leonard), demands to know why Kirk failed his son by not saving
Spock's "katra" (soul/mind).  The Vulcans evidently place the
departed's katra in a temple on a mystic mountain so that all the
knowlege and experience of that individual may endure.  "Everything
that Spock was, is lost."

In the meantime, the Klingoni have received data about the Genesis
effect and decide it would make a neat weapon.  The Bird-of-Prey
scoutship, captained convincingly by Christopher Lloyd ("Crazy Jim"
from tv's "Taxi" series), warps to the Genesis planet.  There the
Klingoni accidentally on purpose blow Saavik and David's ship from
orbit, stranding them planetside.  The Klingoni beam down a search
team to find the two and check out the planet.  The orbiting
Bird-of-Prey disappears behind its cloaking device, a very
convincing special effect.

Back at starbase Kirk and Sarek figure out that Spock dumped himself
to tape (McCoy) before jumping into the radiation-poisoned engine
room ("Remember...").  The source of McCoy's schizophrenia and
tendencies to use the word "logical" now are apparent; he is the
possessor of Spock's katra.

The Federation forbids transporting McCoy to Vulcan (via the
Enterprise).  Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov jury rig the
controls and steal the Enterprise, bringing a "kidnapped" McCoy with
them.  The new, transwarp-equipped Excelsior attempts to give chase,
but Scotty has sabotaged their warp-drive and computer by undoing
three little screws.

Saavik and David find a Vulcan boy of ten biological years age
during a desert snowstorm.  Obviously, the boy is clone of Spock,
generated from the not-yet-dead tissues of his corpse by the power
of the Genesis Effect.  The planet and the boy undergo violent
changes as they age rapidly.  David has used "proto-matter", an
unstable substance whose use is forbidden by mutual consent of all
Federation scientists, to create the Genesis Effect.  The boy and
the planet are aging so fast that they are sure to die convulsively
in a few days.

The Klingoni find Saavik, David, and the vulcan adolescent.  The
Enterprise finds the Genesis planet.  The Klingoni Bird-of-Prey
finds the Enterprise.  In a brief battle, the Enterprise minus
shields, takes a severe hit but damages the Klingoni vessel (bad
scaling in this starship battle. The Bid-of-Prey is supposed to be a
small vessel with a total compliment of 12 officers and men, yet it
appears almost as large as the Enterprise, a battle cruiser with ten
times the firepower).

Kirk, helpless, adrift in a nerveless hulk, attempts to bluff the
Klingoni, who promptly kill David ("You Klingon bastards, you killed
my son!" - a great line, repeated about five times).  Kirk
surrenders the Enterprise, but engages the destruct sequence just
before he and every one else beam down to the planet surface.  The
stupid Klingon boarding party just make it to the bridge to hear the
computer count down the last six seconds.  Kirk and crew are safe
planetside as they watch the shattered chunks of the Enterprise burn
during reentry.

The stranded protagonists overpower the two Klingoni guarding Saavik
and the Vulcan young adult.  The planet is starting to come apart at
the seams: violent heavals, burning bushes, lava, storms.  The
Genesis Effect doesn't work.  The Klingoni commander beams down and
recaptures the Federation folk, beaming all but Kirk aboard his
nearly crewless ship.  Then, just like in the old tv shows, he and
Kirk duke it out.  Christopher Lloyd goes over a cliff edge and
flash-fries with a satisfying FOOMP in a convenient lava flow.  Kirk
fools the last Klingon aboard the ship and gets beamed up.  Our
heroes take over the ship and escape just as the entire planet blows
to smithereens (another nicely done effect). Whew.

Kirk et alii warp to Vulcan.  "Remember" we have (1) a tabula rasa
Vulcan male clone of Spock, aged just right, and (2) a core dump of
Spock's katra in McCoy's head.  In another one of those Vulcan
ceremonies consisting of Dame Judith Anderson ("Amok Time" - she's
still alive), women in diaphronous gowns, and much hexagonal gong
banging, Spock gets re-booted.  For some reason, the process takes
all night, probably because the "tape" already had some files on it
and they had to search for and load only the Spock data.

So Spock's back (you can't keep a good, half-breed down).  But at
what cost?  Kirk's only son David has died, and the Enterprise has
along with the Genesis planet rejoined the primordial interstellar
dust.  If I were the Federation, I sure would think twice about
Admiral Kirk getting another commission.  But then again his past
misdeeds and inability to follow regulations and orders have never
harmed him before.  Besides, the Enterprise was scheduled to "be
hauled away AS garbage."

The only problems I have with the story are few.  If the Genesis
Effect doesn't work, how come it sure seemed to in "The Wrath of
Khan"?  Why didn't the Genesis-generated star blow up, too?  Were
the sfx for a (super-) nova too expensive?  If the Spock clone's
existence depended on the Genesis Effect's use of instable
"proto-matter", why didn't he continue to deteriorate?  This
"tied-to-the planet" stuff is nonsense.  Lastly, if it took only a
second for Spock to dump his katra to McCoy, how come it took all
night to re-boot him?

Future possibilities include a "romantic" involvment for Spock and
Saavik (Star Trek IV - The Search for Contraceptives), Kirk and his
buddies hung to dry by the Federation for random behavior, Kirk
finding more children (what about the queen with whom he made it in
"In a Wink of an Eye"?), or perhaps some more harping on the
"getting old" theme.

"Star Trek III" cost four bucks at the Pacific Cinerama Dome in
Hollywood.  It's worth the bucks.  I found it much more consistently
entertaining than "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom": more
believable, better paced, a better yarn all around.  Some of the
dialog is a bit hackneyed and tv-ish, but that's okay.  There is a
lot of comic (cosmic) relief.  We also learn another reason why the
Klingoni are so bad tempered: they can't get toupees to fit over
their bumpy foreheads.

Go.  Enjoy.  Buy lots of popcorn.

:kg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #111
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 84 1152-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:
    Books - Varley & Vernor Vinge & SF vs Mainstream Literature,
    Television - V: The Final Battle (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 4 Jun 84 11:20:44 EDT
Subject: Demon plug (spoilerless)

The Titan series is complete.  DEMON is on the stands, a 7 buck
trade paperback.  My recommendation is: Read the entire series back
to back.  But don't dare miss it.

The gist of the series is the discovery of a wheel-shaped space
habitat in orbit around Saturn.  It's about 1300 klicks in diameter
and looks old and beat-up.  The habitat turns out to be a living
thing, highly intelligent, and very old.

It's called Gaea.  It was evidently bioengineered by a long-vanished
race of creatures and then abandoned.  It can itself do a fair
amount of bioengineering, including the modification of human beings
and the creation of servant creatures of almost any description.
(At one point, while building a highway within the habitat, Gaea
creates a dinosaur-shaped thingie which eats trees and rocks and
shits asphalt.  Things like that.)  An Earth ship is captured by
Gaea and the fun begins.

These books are diabolically clever, very smoothly written, and
occasionally infuriating.  Varley dislikes men; all his weaklings
and psychopaths are men, and all his heroes and Noble Souls are
women.  This would be all right if he could make a good case for it,
but to me it sounds forced, as though he were consciously "making
up" for abortions like Gor where women are furniture.

There is a lot of sex in these books, a lot of lesbians, and a lot
of lesbian sex.  Again, much of that sounds forced.  I often wished
I knew a lesbian so I could ask her if Varley knows what he's
talking about.  As the heterosexual scenes are rather dumb, I
suspect he's making it all up out of whole cloth.

The characterization is generally unconvincing.

But the plot...the action...the IDEAS, good lord, taken on those
terms this series glows in the dark.  It is easily the finest
"constructed world" story I have ever read, and such stories are
special favorites of mine.  (RAMA, Riverworld, Ringworld, etc.)

To say more might spoil any of several hundred surprises these books
contain.  Once more of you have read the whole thing we might
discuss a few more specific points.

Of course, if you have any spoiler commentary, you can always send
it to me directly.

Read 'em all.

--Jeff Duntemann
  Duntemann.wbst@xerox.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 84 15:27 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Vernor Vinge Bibliography

Over the last few issues, several people have been looking for
Vernor Vinge stories. So here is a complete list of *everything* he
has published, thanks to VV.

[I have omitted Non-Fiction, Translations and non-USA releases of SF
-tom]


==Stories==

1. "Apartness"          - in "New Worlds SF" June 1965
                          "World's Best SF 1966" (Ace)

2. "Bookworm, Run!"     - in "Analog" March 1966
                        - "Analog 6" (Pocket Books)

3. "The Accomplice"     -  in "IF" April 1967

4. "Conquest by Default"-  in "Analog" May 1968
                           "Analog's War and Peace", Anthology #6,
                           Summer 1983

5. "Grimm's Story"      - in "Orbit 4", Damon Knight, ed,1968
                          (Berkeley Books)
        (This is approximately the first half of the novel, "Grimm's
        World."

6. "Bomb Scare"         - in "Analog", November 1970
                          "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"
                          Heintz, ed (Holt, Rinehart Winston)

7. "The Science Fair"   - in "Orbit 9", Damon Knight, ed, 1971
                          (Berkely Books)

8. "Just Peace"         - in "Analog" Dec 1971
                          (Co-authored with William Rupp)

9. "Long Shot"          - in "Analog" Aug 1972
                          "1973 Annual World's Best SF", Wollheim,
                                ed (DAW books)
                          "Best SF of the Year", 2nd annual, Lester
                            Del Ray, ed (Dutton, Ace)
                          "Machines that Think: The Best
                            Science-Fiction Stories about Robots and
                            Computers", Asimov, Warrick and Greenberg,
                            editors (Holt Rinehart Winston) 1983

10. "Original Sin"      - in "Analog" Dec 1972

11. "The Whirligig of Time"- in "Stellar 1", 1974, Judy Lynn del
                             Rey, ed (Ballantine)

12. "The Peddler's Apprentice" - in "Analog", Aug 1975

                          "The 1976 World's Best SF", Wollheim, ed
                                (DAW)
                          "Best SF Stories of the Year", 5th Annual,
                                Lester del Rey, ed (Dutton)
                (Co-authoried with Joan D. Vinge)

13. "True Names"        - in Dell Binary Star Number 5, Feb 1982
                          TO APPEAR in Oct 1984 from Bluejay Books

14. "Gemstone"          - in "Analog" Oct 1983
                          "The Year's Best Sceince-Fiction, First
                                Annual Collection", edited by
                                Gardner Dozois, Bluejay Books

==Novels==

1. "The Witling"        - DAW Books 1976

2. "Grimm's World"      - Berkeley Books 1969

3. "Peace War"          - Serialized in "Analog" May..August 1984
                          TO APPEAR in hardback 3rd quarter 1984
                                from Bluejay Books

Tom Perrine
{tom@LOGICON.ARPA}

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Jun 1984 13:09:39-PDT
From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Suford Lewis)
Subject: SF conquers the "mainstream"

Peter Reiher's points are well taken.  He certainly keeps the
discussion above the level of top-of-the-head natter.  I have
actually had to think before responding.  While I have been
condensing my thoughts to reasonable length, Duntemann has made a
few of them.  That has helped.

I am only talking about NOVELS.  Not literature.  Not the general
class into which narrative and poetry both fit.  Science Fiction as
we usually think of it, is narrative.  (I know there are SF poems.
There is even an SF Poetry Ass'n.  SF poetry is beyond the scope of
this discussion!)

I have sloppily included in "realism" the notion that everyday,
non-heroic, non-archetypal characters and actions are a suitable
subject for art.  This notion came in about the same time as the
novel got popular.  What probably happened is that the printing
technology and the ability of a significant portion of the
population to read made what was previously casual, entertaining
tale-spinning into a noticeable publishing business.

As soon as it became BOOKS this practice could be studied (or at
least noticed by scholars and discussed by critics).  Immediately
the debate arose as to whether this stuff was "art".  All kinds of
classical (read: inherited from Roman and Greek) categories and
analyses were brought to bear.  Of course, when some really good
novels came along, the scholarly concensus gradually decided that
novels could be "art".

Part of the argument against novels being art was that their
subjects were neither elevating nor elevated.  Art was supposed to
express TRUTH.  Novels were mostly devoid of much meaning at all.
It was also noticeable that injection of "meaning" tended to make a
novel worse AS A NOVEL, however much better it might be supposed to
improve it as a work of art.  EXCEPT.  Except for the "really good"
ones which were BOTH good as stories and good for their ideas.  But
what WAS it that made it good AS A NOVEL?

What is a good story?  Tom Jones is a good story.  The Exorcist is a
good story.  Personally, I don't think either are much else, but
this makes them useful for describing a good story.  A good story is
good at pushing your buttons, building suspense, sucking you into
the events, carrying you along on the ride, manipulating your
feelings.  There is lots of junk on the Best-Seller list that is
"merely" good story.  Personally, I don't like being manipulated for
no reason, nor will I continue to suspend my disbelief if things get
unreasonable just for the convenience of the plot.  Most novels are
not "art".

On the other hand, I enjoy my "art" in novel form.  Contemporary
mainstream novels, in general, strike me as silly.  They do not
speak to anybody's needs to understand anything.  They are
button-pushers.  At least in Hotel and Airport you could find out a
bit about how hotels and airports work.  I think that to be really
satisfying, the tension-release cycle of the plot must have some
element of problem-solution.  The resolution of the plot must
involve not only the answer to the question "what happened", but
"why".

That is why I bring the older narrative forms in.  They were always
heavy on why.  They usually had several parallel versions of the
same problem running for the different characters so the audience
could see how "proper action" had good results and "improper action"
led to less good results.  Bringing in fantastic elements to
personify qualities and ideas also helped express the "why".  SF is
usually also big on the "why".

Reiher says:
     It could also be argued that the reason that fantastic elements
     play less part in modern literature is due to the fact that
     many old beliefs have been demonstrated to be untrue, by
     science, and that much of what we today call fantasy was viewed
     as plain truth when written.

Certainly science invalidated a lot of fantasy elements for literary
allusion but Christianity had already done that hundreds of years
before.  It would be very difficult to prove whether the deities
invoked in narrative dating from more than 1000 years ago were meant
as allusions to qualities such as beauty, wisdom, bravery, tenacity
and loyalty or whether they were really believed in as actual gods.

Virgil certainly didn't believe in any of the gods he wrote about in
the Aeneid.  He has them squabbling and plotting just like his human
characters and just like they behave in the Odyssey and Iliad -
possibly because he was consciously copying the style, possibly
because it was a useful way to portray the rivalry that grew up
between Rome and Carthage.  The thing that is worth noting is that
these fantastical elements were USEFUL to explain the events of the
story, a commentary on their significance.

NOW FINALLY, why do I think SF will engulf the mainstream?  Because
story telling needs the devices of SF to tell meaningful stories and
because we need meaningful stories today.  The burgeoning popularity
of the fantastical is an attempt to find meaning in events which are
confusing at best.  SF offers new, richer ways of telling stories
that allow the complexities of modern culture to be clarified
without being over-simplified.

It was SF that evolved the techniques that allow an author to
describe the scene, a character's mood, the culture and the planet
all in the same paragraph.  This technique is needed to describe
other cultures right here and now.  Before Sf came along, historical
fiction was hopelessly anachronistic in the attitudes it projected
on its characters.  Most contemporary authors still do a pretty bad
job of describing other cultures, but the tools are now available.

I know enough Japanese history and culture to see that the events of
Clavell's Shogun are considerably compressed and simplified, BUT
just to tell that much required all the multiplexing techniques of
SF.  I kept thinking it read like an SF novel.  Then I realized that
he had to tell us about the people, their relationships, their
attitudes, their culture, everything.  Of course it read just like a
first-contact SF story!  (I am NOT claiming that SHOGUN is great
literature, merely advancing it as an example of one way SF is
already influencing the mainstream.  The Source is another example.)

Of course, it is not just the techniques of SF that make it
powerful, it is the range of new settings and characters that make
it able to tell any story and explore human action and relationships
in new ways.  And there is the revitalizing influence of something
SF has that mainstream fiction needs:

                      Sense of Wonder

A lot of mainstream fiction is not only a meaningless string of
button-pushing events, but it implies that there is no meaning to
our actions, that good and evil are impossible to distinguish.  This
nihilism is what a lot of the fantastical impulse counters.  The
desire for meaningful story-telling is at the root of the popularity
of Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr.  Who, etc.  The tenuous thread between
these simplistic stories (simplistic to us, SF readers) and the
trappings of modern technology imply that there might be some useful
distinction between good and evil after all.

SF lets the story simplify life but at the same time, preserve the
part of the complexity that the author wants to talk about.  That is
what alien cultures and planets are good for.  SF has developed a
set of stock characters that help too: the idealistic scientist, the
evil scientist, the blind bureaucrat, the naive outsider (a must, we
have to have someone to explain to or to learn and think about
things), the misunderstood monster, the good-looking bad guys, the
evil-looking good guys.  Clearly you want a deeper characterization
than that, but the stereotypes are useful to express ideas and help
the readers get their bearings as the story starts.

So, it seems obvious to me that mainstream fiction is increasingly
unable to talk about life and SF is right here, ready to hand with
all the necessary tools.  Popular culture increasingly embraces SF
devices (at their most primitive but you have to start somewhere).
Is this escapism?  What is wrong with escaping from nihilism into
sense of wonder?  As Tolkien once said, "Who is worried about
escape, anyway?  Jailers."

                          - Suford

P.  S. - As for pointing out the examples of SF that can be classed
as great art...  1984 and Brave New World are generally recognized
as at least "important".  I think 50 years has to pass before the
difference between great art and ephemerally relevant becomes clear.
How about suggesting some current "mainstream" works that you would
compare them with?  Remember, narrative works only: Pride and
Prejudice is OK; Ulysses - which I claim is really a poem in spite
of being a long work of prose - is not.

------------------------------

Date: 4-Jun-84 08:46:30-EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
From: glenn  (Glen Norris)
Subject: Comments on ARPANET board "sf-lovers-temp", message #18

>Lost in Space was adventure/comedy n ... Obviously V was meant to
>be taken seriously.

Yes, but it wasn't meant to be taken by us!  The decadence of
television!  The publius public!  V was a comedy for me.  Those I
know who saw it and thought it was good also watch Pac-man on
Saturdays and He-man on the other days.  The (and I hesitate to
confuse a relationship) networks can put this stuff on the air
because it has lasers and ugly aliens in it (LIZARD people!  Come
ON!).  The public loves it and I'm ashamed for them.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 84 13:46:44-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader)

>>>>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though.

>>>> Oh, yeah?  Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi
>>>> when Vader threw the Emperor down that pit?

>>>> Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker
>>>(from a certain point of view).  :-)

>>      Also, Diane didn't off the "emperor", she offed John.
>>    The emperor was back on the homeworld.

>But before that she shot John's superior (and the most superior one
>on the ship), the character played by Sarah Douglas.

But that's still not the emperor.  A better equivalent would be Gov.
Tarkin.
                                -Glenn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #112
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 84 1246-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #112
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:
     Films - Streets of Fire & Does anybody remember these ? (3 msgs),
     Television - Tv scan rate and flicker & Dr. Who (2 msgs),
     Miscellaneous - SF Cons List & Complaints & Computer Crime &
             Time Travel Riches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 84 14:23:16 PDT (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: summer sf/fantasy films
Cc: reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA

Re: Streets of Fire

I'm glad to see that "Streets of Fire" is being recognized as
"fantasy."  I just saw it this weekend, and I was impressed with the
classic (to the point of being formula) fantasy plot:

                   *** SLIGHT SPOILER WARNING ***

Beautiful Princess is kidnapped by Evil Warrior.  Gallant Knight is
summoned to rescue Princess.  Knight gathers Companions about him
(for comedy relief if nothing else) and they set off on a Quest to
rescue the Princess.  Knight and Companions suffer hardships until,
at last, Good confronts Evil for the climax.

*** END SPOILER ***

Who says that "fantasy" must be festooned with unicorns,
fire-breathing dragons, and mail-clad meat-heads?  Instead of
chariots, why not Studebakers?  Instead of magic swords, shotguns?
The creators should be commended for believing that a fantasy story
can be successfully set in a decadent urban environment; in a
culture not unlike New York of the fifties.  The one or two
anachronisms (big screen color tv in one of the night-clubs) do not
distract, but rather help remind the viewer that this isn't quite
Reality (or "realistic", in a "mainstream" film sense.)  I think
even Tolkien would have been satisfied.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 84 20:16:28-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Does anybody remember these ?

I just recently was remembering a movie about some dolphin/aliens
(that were being persecuted ?).  All I remember is scientists trying
to figure out their language and at the end of the movie they
destroy this big dam/bridge.  As you can see, I really don't
remember it that well.  It may have been an Outer Limits.

Speaking of Outer Limits, does anybody remember the one where some
Earth people land on some planet with acid rain.  If you get caught
in the rain, something funny happens to your eyes so that you can't
stand light and you can't stand all dark.  I don't remember this one
too well either.

How about this one ?  Some alien lands in Washington with a robot
who guards the ship.  I seem to recall this was one of the first
science fiction movies with any class.  All I remember with this one
is that the alien tries to get back to his ship at the end of the
movie and some human helps him, I think.

As you can see I did a lot of reminiscing recently.  If anybody
remembers anything more about those movies than I've mentioned, I'd
appreciate hearing it.

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201)
576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 84 5:50:07-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

 > I just recently was remembering a movie about some dolphin/aliens
 > (that were being persecuted ?). All I remember is scientists
 > trying to figure out their language and at the end of the movie
 > they destroy this big dam/bridge.

Maybe it was "The Day of the Dolphin" with George C. Scott...

 > How about this one ?  Some alien lands in Washington with a robot
 > who guards the ship.  I seem to recall this was one of the first
 > science fiction movies with any class.  All I remember with this
 > one is that the alien tries to get back to his ship at the end of
 > the movie and some human helps him, I think.

This was "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Michael Rennie.  The
Robot's name was Klaatu.  You are correct - this movie was one of
the first and still one of the best good science fiction movies.

--> Allen <--
ihnp4!ihuxb!alle

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 84 10:50:24-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!mag @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

The robot's name was Gort, not Klaatu.  He was given an instruction:
"Gort, klaatu berada nikto" which was given by Michael Rennie (the
alien) to some human to relay to him, which prevented the end of the
world, or something.
                                                M.A. Gray, BTL WH.

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people who
contributed similar information:

Bob Fishell (ihnp4!ihu1g!fish)
M. Kenig (hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!spuxll!abnjh!cbspt002@
          Ucb-Vax)
]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 03:22:19-PDT
From: Bob Larson <LARSON@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Tv scan rate and flicker

The easiest place to detect flicker is watching wagon wheels
turning.  Besides the noticeable flicker, they often appear to turn
backwards.  (Most car wheels do not have high contrast spokes.)

Yes, the 60 scans per second, 30 frames per second rate used on TV
was chosen for several reasons.

  1) A multiple/submultiple of the power line frequency was chosen
because most interference is synchronous to the power line.  The eye
can detect a small spot moving at a constant rate much easier than
one staying still.

  2) The phospher used in TV's is not perfect.  It lights up
brightly then fades.  If it stayed at a constant illumination for
1/30 second and then completely went black, a 30 scan per second
rate would have been chosen.  As it is, a 60 scan per second was
chosen to get near uniform perceptible picture brightness over the
entire screen.  Higher persistence phosphers will cause noticeable
image retention.

  3) Interlace was chosen to reduce bandwidth requirements.  Moving
images will be lower resolution than a pure 60 scan per second
system, but steady images will have the same resolution as a pure 30
frame per second system with the same bandwidth.  Increased
bandwidth would cost more in cheap TV receivers, transmitters, and
available channels.  Current expensive TV receivers use extra
circuitry to try and compensate for the reduced bandwidth
(especially color) that costs more than a wider bandwidth circuit
would.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 84 16:12:59-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!mhuxm!mhuxn!mhuxr!mhuxt!crose @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Dr. Who sources wanted

 I am looking for places in New York City where I can find anything
related to `Doctor Who' such as bookstores and what have you. I will
need street names as well as store names. Thank you.

                   Crose
           ...mhuxt!crose

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 84 18:43:28-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dr. Who sources wanted

Dial toll free (800) CALL-WHO.

(And I'm not kidding!!)

D Gary Grady
Duke University Computation Center, Durham, NC  27706
(919) 684-4146
USENET:  {decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 May 84 11:05:05-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: SF Cons list updated - hardcopy also available

SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for
FTP.  SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.  CONS.TXT is currently 1084 lines (or
51,188 characters).

For those desiring a hardcopy of the list, a "pocket" version (4.25"
x 11", 1/4-size print) is available for 50 cents at St. Louis in '88
bid parties, or 75 cents via mail from:

   St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid
   PO Box 1058
   St. Louis, MO  63188

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 29-Jun-84 20:52 PDT
From: William Daul  SoftMark/McDonnell Douglas 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Complaints

I just read someone's complaint about "why complain about the
boobtube treatment of SF, it isn't any worse than the treatment of
other subjects."  That got me to thinking (Congradulations!), there
is ALOT of complaining going on (in my opinion).  If it leads to
readers writing letters to relevant people, then it seems worth it.
Otherwise, it sure takes up alot of peoples time writing and reading
it.

How many of this readership have ever written a letter to the
writers, studios, producers, etc., to complain about their work?  I
am very curious.  I hope my guess is correct...then my mailbox will
have plenty of room left.  If readers have enough interesting
comments, I will try to forward a synopsis of them.

I will continue to read whatever is put in front of me, whether it
makes things better or just gives my eyes exercise.  I hope no one
considers this a "flame", it isn't.

--Bi<<

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 00:26 EDT
From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: ABACUS Article on Computer Crime in Science Fact and Fiction
To: Security-Forum@UTEXAS-20.ARPA

[Prompted by the item I noticed in the SF-Lovers Digest I asked our
library to send me a copy of the Abacus article entitled "Computer
Crime: Science Fiction and Science Fact."  I mildly recommend it.  I
was tempted to excerpt large portions of it, but will restrain
myself and only quote a couple of paragraphs, along with the
complete list of books and articles reviewed.

By the way, the author of the article is named Kurt J. Schmucker,
and the biographical note says he is a "mathematician and computer
scientist with the Department of Defense in Washington, D.C." -- he
is not listed in the NIC; does anyone know (of) him?

The article is a fairly complete compendium of science fiction works
dealing with computer crime, categorized by whether the computer is
the object, environment, instrument, symbolic entity ("trust the
computer"), or perpetrator of the crime.  Quite a few of the works
reviewed seem to have moderately serious and moderately competent
ties to realistic computer security threats and vulnerabilities.

In the spirit of the recent discussions in the Forum about viruses,
let me start by excerpting Schmucker's comments about John Brunner's
"The Shockwave Rider":]

Brunner, John, "The Schockwave Rider," New York, Ballantine Books,
1975.

This science fiction novel is set in a future U.S.  society in which
the all-pervasive computer is abused to a horrifying degree by the
government and by a highly-principled and individualistic
super-programmer.  Computer security topics discussed in this novel
include Trojan Horse programs, encryption, operating system
security, network protection, and authorization and authentication
levels and methods.

   ... the hero's virtuosity was based on his ability to construct
worms electronic worms, that is.  These worms were programs with a
veritable life of their own, crawling through computers and computer
networks to accomplish their assigned tasks, usually unnoticed by
the computer personnel.  His worms could break encryption schemes,
alter databases, modify the network connections, etc., and then
erase themselves.  They could be purely destructive, as well, used
to avenge or deter a hostile act, or to prevent detection of the
hero's network connection.

[Schmucker concludes by referencing the Shoch and Hupp CACM article
on the Xerox Worm.]

[The second excerpt is from Schmucker's descriptions of another
virus program, "The Adolescence of P-1"]

Ryan, Thomas J., "The Adolescence of P-1," New York, Collier Books,
1977.

This novel is the story of a program which was given two goals: to
obtain as much storage as possible on every system it broke into,
and to avoid detection at all cost.

"[from the book, I believe - TMPL] He would build a program that at
first would only learn to acquire storage.  His program would simply
learn how best to penetrate the supervisors of computer systems over
teleprocessing facilities.  It would then acquire storage in
systems, as much as could be taken without interrupting the
operation of the host.  It would learn how to detect the presence of
a teleprocessing link to another system and how to go about getting
to that other system..."

Within 24 hours after it first branched from its home system, the
program was resident on 114 different systems and had allocated
itself 266,098K bytes of storage on those systems.

[Following are the authors and titles of the other works reviewed in
the article]:

Baldwin, Fred. D. "Opening Move," Creative Computing, June 1979.
Berlyn, Michael, "The Integrated Man," New York, Bantam, 1980.
Carney, David, "Too Identified," Creative Computing, July 1980.
Clarke, Arthur C. "2001: A Space Odyssy," 1968.
Compton, D.G., "The Steel Crocodile," New York, Pocket Books, 1970.
Crowe, Sam, "You Can't Think in Two Places at Once," Creative
   Computing, Sept.-Oct. 1978.
Daley, Brian, "TRON,", New York, Ballantine Books, 1982.
Gerrold, David, "When Harlie Was One," New York, Ballantine Books,
   1972.
Heinlein, Robert A., "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," New York,
   Putnam, 1966.
Hogan, James P., "The Genesis Machine," New York, Ballantine, 1978.
Hogan, James P., "The Two Faces of Tomorrow," New York, Ballantine,
   1979.
Jones, D.F., "Colossus" et seq., New York, Berkley Pub. Corp.,
   1966,74,77.
Koontz, Dean R., "Demon Seed," London, Transworld Pub. Ltd., 1977.
Littell, Robert, "The Amateur," New York, Simon and Schuster, 1981.
Matthews, Clyde, "The Ides of March Conspiracy," New York, Arbor
   House, 1979.
Niesewand, Peter, "Fallback," New York, William Morrow & Co., 1982.
Perry, Roland, "Program for a Puppet," New York, Crown Pubs., 1979.
Saberhagen, Fred, "Berseker," New York, Ace Books, 1967.
Shedly, Ethan I., "The Medusa Conspiracy," New York, Viking Press,
   1980.
Vitale, Michael R., "Computer Control," Creative Computing, Nov-Dec
   1977.
Williamson, S.A., "The Link," Creative Computing, Oct 1979.
Yourdon, Edward N., "Silent Witness: A Novel of Computer Crime," New
   York, Yourdon Press, 1982

[Two other observations -- Schmucker starts by outlining what I
believe the popular press calls the salami scam -- catching the
round-off error in a financial institution's interest-paying program
and funnelling to your account.  He observes that this idea has
occurred repeatedly, but yet he has NEVER seen any authenticated
report of it actually having been perpetrated -- does anyone out
there know of a documented case?  Second observation -- The novel
"Fallback" deals with the U.S. having penetrated the Soviet's missle
control computers and re-targeting them against the the Soviet Union
itself.  In his review (parallel between fiction and reality)
Schmucker quotes from Roger Schell's Air University Review article
(the paragraph starting "For example, it has been proposed that the
Air Force dynamically retarget its strategic .... " and ending with
"... However, computers are at the heart of this capability: if they
were penetrated, an enemy could retarget ...."]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 84 09:26:20 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Time travel riches - 1787 money

        Regarding bopping back to 1787, returning with a handful of
currency, and selling it to collectors:

        I'm surprised you didn't think of this flaw; you mentioned
it yourself: it's in mint condition!  After ~200 years?  Who would
believe you didn't print/mint it yourself last week?  A carbon-14
test (on currency, at least; I don't know what you'd do for coins)
wouldn't help, either.

        You'd have to bury it someplace safe for 200 years (!) or
arrange to have it "willed" to you in the present by someone in 1787
(and don't ask me how to do *that*!).

        Try doing the lottery bit once, then take your winnings &
set of Wall Street Journals and invest in commodities (sugar,
precious/strategic metals) a couple of months before they take
massive jumps in price.  You won't attract as much attention as you
would with the regular stock market (after all, how many of us had
heard of Nelson Bunker Hunt before he was caught driving up silver
prices?).

                                Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #113
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 84 1304-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #113
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 84 11:41:29-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!)

In one word: Naaahhhhhh!!!

Well, hey, I *did* enjoy the film, but like RETURN OF THE JEDI and
INDIANA JONES & THE TEMPLE OF DOOM, I felt I got much less than I
hoped for or expected.

First of all, I wasn't all that impressed with the special effects.
ILM's standards are higher than this. The Space Dock was
magnificent, as were assorted other scenes, but most of the ship
movements were awkward and ended up looking like the models that
they were. I will give kudos for the destruction of the *Enter-
prise*, though. Well done, I say, well done. I'm sorry to see her
go, but she at least went out in a (literal) blaze of glory!

Secondly, I thought Nimoy was only OK as director; he just doesn't
have the experience is this job yet, though he certainly shows
promise. Some of the awkward moments, though, could also be put down
to a weak script. I suspect that with THE WRATH OF KHAN, it was Jack
Sowards who contributed much of the dialogue, and that Harve Bennett
couldn't hold the fort by himself for this one. At least we were
spared one thing: I was really afraid that when Spock went through
pon farr, that Saavik was going to end up balling the kid to help
him through it. She may have actually done so (I'll be interested to
see how this is handled in the novelization), but at least it
wasn't made criminally obvious that this was the case. That would
have been too much of an inverted Oedipal situation for me to deal
with. I'll have to give credit, though, for the characterizations of
the Klingons. They say that one can better understand a foreigner's
way of looking at things by studying his language. I felt that the
clipped, direct, no-beating-around-the-bush, to the point dialogue
of the Klingons spoke volumes about their way of thinking ("Speak!"
"Success" "Opponent!")

Thirdly, though I *loved* the "character humor" (ie playful
character interactions --- such as Scotty's reply, "It'll take 8
weeks to refit her, but we don't have 8 weeks, so I'll do it in
2."), there were some scenes with the Klingons, and especially with
Captain "Howard Hunter" Styles that were played too much for laughs.
I was *really* disgusted with the *Excelsior* going klunkety
klunkety klunk and stopping dead in space; it was just too silly.

And last, but not least, I was *outraged* by Spock's resurrection!
Hey, I like Spock as much as the next guy, And I must confess that
the way they pulled it off was consistent and believable (with the
standard disbelief suspenders on, of course), but dead is dead! If
they haven't got the guts to keep him dead, they shouldn't have
killed him in the first place. I applauded their major step for-
ward in realism by killing off a major character, but now they've
just taken a step backward and made Spock's ultimate sacrifice in
TWOK totally meaningless.
        Seriously! Isn't the lesson of Spock's sacrifice lost when
-- like the scene in AIRPLANE II where the guard shoots the little
boy's dog -- all they end up doing is saying, "Hah, hah! Only
kidding. No harm done." All that is accomplished is that Spock fans
have been through an emotional wringer that serves no purpose. I
confess to having been all choked up during the funeral scene in
TWOK (and just about every time I've seen it, too), and because now
we know he's not really dead, I feel like I'm the victim of a sadist
who's tortured me for the fun of it. <Note: I hated this in E.T.,
also>
        In a similar vein, I feel that the point of the current film
is lost, too. Kirk and the others are in deep shit with Star Fleet,
risking their careers (not to mention their lives) to help their
friend. But how much you want to bet that as in "Amok Time", Sarek
and T'Pau (or whoever is Lord High Mucky Muck of Vulcan these days)
vouches for them and gets all charges against them dropped.  Again,
I feel that paying the piper doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot when
you end up getting a refund.
        Sigh. I suppose it seems strange that I could still have
enjoyed the film after blasting it so much, but hell, it *was* well
done for the most part, if one is willing to play along with the
game. I just didn't like them changing the rules. <The *Kobayashi
Maru* be damned!>

                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 84 01:04:07 PDT (Sun)
From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse
Subject: ST III and collections of stories

Just finished seeing ST III.  My impression is that it's worse than
TWOK (not by much) and a lot better than STTMP (that wouldn't be
difficult...).  I expect to see it again.  I recommend it.

                                        der Mouse
                        ihnp4!uw-beaver!utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jun 84 18:46 EDT
From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek III (partial spoiler)

Saw ST3 last night.  It was not completely disgusting, but it was
getting pretty close.

Big gripes:

1.  The Klingons, once a proud starfaring race of great intellect
and nobility (plus a few minor personality problems) have been
turned into juvenile dimwits whose qualifications for empire are
overshadowed by their qualifications for a typical inner-city street
gang.

2.  Much of the movie was strongly influenced by Star Wars.  I'm
sure most people who see it will readily recognize Jabba's pet and
the Bar Scene from SW1.  Other connections are less direct, and may
be coincidence.

3.  At long last, gratuitous Vulcan sex comes to Star Trek.  Merely
one of many flaws in the distinctly non-Vulcan Saavik.  Bring back
the original!

4.  You can't fly a Federation Heavy Cruiser with five crewmen.

Despite this, it was fun watching Kirk play pirate captain, and the
transformation of Star Fleet Command from an imperial military force
to a hidebound beaurocracy gave a nice sense of the difference in
time from the TV series.  And it was still better than Star Trek One

-Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 03:07:54-EDT
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek III -- "In Search Of... Spock"

ST3 felt very short, more like an episode than a whole movie.  It
should have been called "Star Trek 2A", since it starts immediately
after the end of ST2 and serves mostly to finish all the open plot
lines.  A decent, *small* film.

PRAISE: Great acting by DeForrest Kelly (McCoy), especially in the
bar scene.  He definitely steals the show.  Scotty, Sulu and Uhura
aren't bad either, though their parts are small; they and the
Klingon captain get good one-liners.
        Most of the SFX are well done, with the exception of the
hand phasers.  Ships blow up real nice.  Klingon disruptor pistols
are also cute - reminiscent of the effect Japanimation fans call
"Wave Motion Sickness".

BLAME:  Saavik's part is written even worse than in the last movie;
most of the few things she gets to do are out of character.  Kirstie
Alley wanted too much money, so they put in a new actress (Robin
somebody-or-other) who doesn't look Vulcan and can't act.  Nimoy was
the director, and he certainly knows how Vulcans should be played -
why did he tolerate this?!  I wish the wonderful Saavik character
from Vonda McIntyre's novelization of ST2 would make it into the
films....
        The Vulcan religious ceremonies are *silly*, especially the
Voluptuous Vulcan Vestal Virgins in the filmy nighties, and the
Chinaman with the gong.
        Sarek gets emotional.  Even worse, he admits in public to a
Vulcan high priestess that he is getting emotional.  This is
equivalent to getting up at a Jerry Falwell revival and saying
you're a gay Communist.
        All the CRT's on the bridge look like they are attached to
Atari 800's (40 columns or less of 5x7 uppercase letters).  At least
they don't print at 300 baud and bleep after each character.
        The Klingons' dog, a Ray Harryhausen-esque monster, should
have either been used or not been used.  It seems to have just been
there for decoration.
        The premise is weak; it only works because of magic, with a
little bit of amazing coincidence and deus-ex-machina thrown in.
Then again, at least half the episodes were like that too.

        Okay, I knew the Klingons had the Romulan cloaking device,
but since when are they using Romulan bird-of-prey ships as well?
With only 12 crewmen?
        Why does Saavik stay in the cave and let David scout around,
other than to leave her alone with "Spock" for the love scene?  She
is a trained military officer, he is a (wimpier than average)
civilian, and they know enemy troops may be around.  I've also been
asked why she just stands there doing nothing while David is
fistfighting the Klingon guard, but this may be to protect "Spock"
from getting shot at.  And I don't mind losing the Space Preppie.
        When the Enterprise blows up, about half of it seems to make
it out of the explosion (awful lousy self-destruct).  It then
reenters the atmosphere of the Genesis planet, which of course is
still evolving in hiccups.  Will the Enterprise now be reborn, get
Nomad/V'ger syndrome, and go off to find Scotty?
        Kirk has *still* not caught hell for what he did in ST2,
namely willfully disobeying a prime Star Fleet regulation and
thereby getting the Enterprise shot up.  [Theory: Shatner's about as
good an actor as Ron Reagan, maybe he has the Reagan Teflon Factor
too!]  Now he's conspired to steal a starship and sabotage another,
landed on a thoroughly-off-limits planet, perhaps started a war with
the Klingons, and told Star Fleet to take a flying \\\\ at a black
hole.  Even Sarek and T'Pau shouldn't be able to get him out of this
one....  Especially with no ship, what are our heroes going to do
next, head off to Orion and become pirates?
                                --Mike Rubin <Rubin@Columbia-20.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 84 18:51:33-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!dartvax!merchant @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!)

Well, someone said that they wanted to hear a few other comments, so
what the hell.  I'll put in my two cents worth...

I rather enjoyed the movie.  I liked how they managed to bring him
back.  Very clever, indeed.  I would have been thoroughly disgusted
if they landed on the planet to find Spock going "Hey, Jim, what
took you so long?"

I only have one major complaint.  How in the world did the Genesis
effect get into the sealed torpedo?  Possibly it's just ignorance on
my part, but I don't believe the Genesis effect was caused by any
foofy form of radiation or anything like that, and the thing was
sealed shut.  For that matter, how in the world did the kid get out?
Most coffins that seal shut don't have any way to get out from the
inside.  The theory is, if he's dead, he ain't going to be going
anywhere.  The torpedo HAD to be sealed shut.  If it wasn't, how did
it withstand re-entry?

Of course, the argument can be shot down by saying the torpedo was
damaged on re-entry or something like that.  I don't think my
complaint is a major shortcoming...I just wished they'd explained it
better.

Minor complaints:

1.  Some scenes smacked a bit too much of Star Wars.  The bar, in
    particular, and the scene where they break McCoy out, in
    general.  The Klingon Commander's pet reminded a bit too much of
    some of the beasties that inhabitted Boba-Fett's place.

2.  Doesn't it seem like Kirk got away a bit too easy?  I mean, come
    on!  A Starship does have alot of rather interesting things in
    it's memory banks.  Conceivably, information on the Genesis
    device.  The fact that Star Fleet let them, basically, walk away
    with the Enterprise is a bit questionable.

3.  The comment I hear over and over again: How did Kirk notice the
    weirdness of space and the computer didn't.  This one I give a
    half-point.  Basically, nobody asked the computer "Hey, computer,
    analyze what looks like a weirdness in space for me."  Maybe,
    Maybe...

4.  Someone has to tell ILM (Industrial Light & Magic...the people
    who do most of the effects work) to mellow out.  The Transporter
    is far too foofy for my taste.  There is a little twinkle after
    they materialize which reminds me of the pixie dust from Peter
    Pan.  (McCoy's latest: "I'm a doctor, not tinkerbell!")

5.  Why did the Klingon Ship have both a transporter and a way to
    land?  I don't remember seeing the Klingon Transporter Room, so
    maybe there was a logical reason (like the transporter room was
    too small) but it seems like a waste to me.

6.  Similar to the Enterprise concept: Why didn't the Federation
    notice this Klingon Battle Cruiser flying around.  Also, if the
    Federation has bases and things like that on Vulcan (Vulcan is
    supposed to be a pretty mainstay part of the Federation), when
    Kirk zoomed up to Vulcan and went to land, I would think that
    the Federation would have kicked Jim's ass, and I don't care how
    much clout Sarek might have.  Look at it from their point of
    view.  Jim steals the Enterprise.  One of the Federation's
    starships is missing.  Jim returns in a Klingon Battle Cruiser.
    It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that Jim sold out to the
    Klingons.  He's going to take a few potshots at the Federation
    before he goes home to his new buddies.  I'd say Jim should be
    space dust by now.

Of course, it's easy to find fault.  Let's look at some good things:

1.  Christopher Lloyd, who played the Klingon Commander, was
    wonderful.  He played it mean and nasty, but not viciously so.
    He was doing what he had been trained to do.  He didn't have a
    fiendish laugh or anything.  He was quietly nasty.  Bravo!

2.  The fight between Kirk and the Klingon Commander was great.  Jim
    got nailed a couple of times.  I don't expect a 50 year old man
    to fight like a twenty year old man.

3.  Spock, as I said above, was handled very well.  I think they
    might have rushed it a bit at the end.  Spock seemed a little
    unsure at first, but caught on fast after he remembered Jim's
    name.  The eyebrow at the end was great, though I haven't quite
    figured out what might have caused it.  Fascinating.

4.  The execution of the stealing of the Enterprise was great fun.
    The integrating of each of our favourite members was fun.
    Scotty's quote will become the concept for computer hackers
    everywhere.  I just wish I could remember it.

5.  Jim reacted well to the death of his son.  A few moments of
    anger and then back to business.  Just a caustic remark every
    now and then.

All in all, a good movie.  I think my complaints are kind of
nitpicky.  I will definitely go see it again.

"Scotty!  Save my ass!"                          Peter Merchant

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 84 20:29:30 EDT
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) <earl@Brl-Vat.ARPA>
Subject: ST III

1.  Good ole Rev Jim...
2.  I liked the first Saavik best.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #114
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 84 1947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #114
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:
            Books - Varley & SF vs Mainstream (2 msgs),
            Films - Dune & The Last Starfighter,
            Television - Dr. Who & TV Flicker,
            Miscellaneous - Aliens in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 Jun 84 22:05:39-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #111

I too most heartily recommend Demon as the best of the year so far.

"I often wished I knew a centaur so I could find out if the sex
scenes were realistic"

....well, maybe not.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Thu 7 Jun 84 11:46:40-PDT
From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: SF/Mainstream/Beyond

    More on the SF/mainstream controversy, and a little kick ahead ...

        According to Jeff Duntemann:
                > Literature is the mapping of the human spirit
                > by the language of the culture.
        A few paragraphs later:
                > I accuse the mainstream of failing to accurately
                > reflect our twentieth century culture ...

        I maintain that if you define "literature" as a map of the
human spirit via the language and then also say the literature of
the day does not adequately reflect the culture ... well, you have
succeeded in defeating your own definition.
        I do agree with the definition, but not with the
observation.  Literature must ALWAYS be measured according to the
time it was written and not when it was read.  The lag between
creation and wide circulation can generate this apparent descrepancy
between the feelings of the day and the literatary echo.
        Also, literature is a spectrum (as is the human spirit).
You can find depression in any period (regardless of cultural
levity) as easily as you can find hope even in bleak periods.  I
could read mainstream nonstop for weeks (were I so desparate)
without venturing out of comfortable niches of romance and country
gardens.  As well could I drive myself to suicidal despair in a few
days by another selection.
        My point is: choose.  If it seems depressing (and you don't
like depression), just move on.
        I will, however, rally to a point I haven't heard much made
that television has gutted all forms of literature across the board.
While playing to a basically child-like mentality, it has
nevertheless absorbed so much attention from the public, that less
flashy (and often more rewarding) forms of literature flounder.
With television providing the role models for the next generation of
literature, I don't hold too many great hopes for mainstream or SF
going anywhere terribly interesting.
        On the subject of the future (a subject dear to all our
hearts), let me take a wild guess about whether SF will gobble
mainstream or vice versa.  That guess?  Simply that both forms as
they exist today will be as pale as radio programs or BW television
as soon as we get truly interactive literature together.  Neither
one will triumph.  They will both be put on the shelf.  This is not
to say they will not be as interesting and/or powerful as ever --
just that the next evolutionary step (if you want to apply that
dog-eared metaphor to this field) will supplant them both.
        I'm no prophet, but it seems to me that if we get together
good computer graphics, interactive devices, and a few tremendously
creative individuals, we may have some decent interactive
novels/programs/arcade games.  If we have a few Charles Dickens or
Jane Austens who can deal with computers (and have not been spoiled
by too much tv), we might see some major alterations in the way
literature is perceived.
        Note: I do not opine that the new form will be "better."
But I do not feel any evolutionary step ever taken has been
"better", just different.  If it has an appeal which will favor its
survival (as has had tv), then less popular forms of literature just
may get archived.

                                                ... ron cain
                                                    cain@sri-ai

P.S.    For some reason, my letters to this column seem to have a 1
        - 2 week latency (probably network bugs or something).
        Forgive me if some of my responses seem out of sequence.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 84 12:16:01 EDT
From: Stephen Miklos <Miklos@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Genres
To: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA

This is in response to Jeff Duntemann's crusade on behalf of sf.

  SF is not sui generis. It is a genre of literature. Occasionally
an sf book will be so well-written that it appeals to readers (and
critics) who generally are not willing to put up with sf. This
happens with other genres as well, for example Raymond Chandler's
detective novels or Graham Greene's spy books.  Are these books no
longer genre books, because they have been accepted by mainstream
critics? It is hard to say. Perhaps it is a meaningless question.

  It seems to me that most of the popular sub-genres of fiction have
one thing in common: adventure. There is the voyeuristic thrill of
reading about people who do things you don't do. Solving murders,
spying on the Russians, travelling in outer space, having epic love
affairs, or handling huge amounts of money (usually while having
epic love affairs). The difference between a genre novel and a
"mainstream" or serious novel has to do with the quality of writing,
but more to do with the quality of conceptualization, and with a
shift in empahasis from the spying or detecting or space travel or
what-have-you over to the relationships of real characters to each
other and to a real world. The best sf (as well as the best fiction
of other genres) that I know of has very little to do with the genre
fetish, and a whole lot to do with the people in the book.

  There is nothing wrong with genre fiction, just as there is
nothing wrong with rock and roll or hamburgers; but genre fiction is
not generally in the same league with literary fiction. The best of
rock and roll shows the same inventiveness and musical
sophistication as the best art songs, and is therefore "as good as"
the art songs, just as the best sf is "as good as" the best literary
fiction.

  But there remains a core of "fans" who enjoy the mysteries,
romances, sf tales, and so on mainly for the things that make them
genre books, regardless of the "literary" value of the books. I
happen to enjoy sf in this way, but I don't kid myself that any but
a very few sf books have any literary value at all.

  The quality that Mr. Duntemann attributes to sf to set it apart
from "mainstream" fiction, optimism, is available in all the other
genre books. He just happens to be a fan of sf instead of mysteries,
romances, or spy stories. I have a hard time swallowing his
contention that it is not also the main theme of modern serious
fiction. I just don't see all this despair that Mr. Duntemann is
wailing about.  If there is one thread that has persisted throughout
literature it is the notion of the nobility of the human spirit and
a sense of delight at the variety of human life. This has persisted
past the Victorians.  Who can ignore the thundering "yes" of Joyce's
Ulysses or the sublime optimism of Alice Walker's "The Color
Purple", to take an example from each end of the modern era. If
Jeff's instructor thought that Camus was all about whether or not to
commit suicide, then he should have had a more perceptive teacher.
The man was talking about freedom--which includes the freedom to
commit suicide--and committing yourself to something in spite of the
fact that you are absolutely free. Though there is no meaning given
to life from above, our choices make it meaningful. Despair? Think
about the doctor in The Plague and then talk to me about despair.

  The work of any writer you can get me to agree is any good (and
that includes most of the ones most critics think are good--I'm not
trying to pick out an unrepresentative subset), in this century or
any other, is primarily about the worth of human beings and not
about despair, except when despair is shown as a bad option. A very
abbreviated list would include, among authors active since WWII,
John Gardner (not the spy-story guy, but "The Sunlight Dialogues" et
al.), Thomas Pynchon, John Updike, I. B. Singer, Saul Bellow, John
Kennedy Toole, Thornton Wilder, Walker Percy, Athol Fugard, and
Graham Greene, to name only some of my favorites. This list includes
some heavy- and some light-weights, but no pap. And no despair.

  Will sf take over "mainstream"? Indubitably, literature will be
more concerned with technology as real people become more concerned
with technology. When was the last time you read a modern novel in
which a phone call or a car trip did not have an impact on the plot?
This is not, however, what most of us would call sf. It is possible
that the next big theme in serious literature is technology (or the
next + n), but that literature will be different in quality from
most of what we call sf.

  I could go on for days; in fact, I have. Ignore all of this if
what Mr. Duntemann meant by "mainstream" is the best-seller list. It
doesn't much matter whether all the best-sellers next year are
sf--it won't have anything to do with literature. Btw--this is not
an elitist attitude; "literary" fiction is just as much a genre as
sf. Some like plot, some like style.

+++>> stephen <<+++

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Jun 1984 10:06:35-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Aliens, FTL, and the spice of Dune

  Herbert's having based Dune on the uniqueness of melange is quite 
reasonable.  Given today's technology, which can disassemble 
substances down as far as desired, even unto their component atoms and
beyond, why can't anyone duplicate Coca-Cola?  Think they haven't
tried?  Don't count on it.  The problem is in the manufacturing
process - reverse engineering doesn't explain the subtleties of that -
it's virtually impossible to take a piece of steel and analyse it to
the extent that it can be duplicated even to the temper.  And
biologically produced substances are often the hardest to analyse!!!

Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA:
binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 84 12:54:05 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: The Last Starfighter release postponed

After several VERY well recieved preview screenings, the folks at
Universal decided that TLS deserved more hype than previously
allotted.

Therefore the release date has been pushed back to July 15, 1984.

sigh.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jun 84 23:23 EDT
From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Dr. Who Sources
To: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!mhuxm!mhuxn!mhuxr!mhuxt!crose@UCB-VAX.ARPA

If that 800 number doesn't get you what you want, we have a very
large SF bookstore here in Minneapolis that carries a large
collection of the Dr.  Who books (4 or 5 eight foot shelves, if I
remember right), and a good assortment of the other collectibles:
puzzles, games, coin boxes (in the shape of a Tardis, of course) the
various annuals, T-shirts, etc.  The name of the store is Uncle
Hugo's (natch) and they will send you a more-or-less complete
catalogue of all they have and will mail order to anywhere in the
world on a personal check.  (I suspect their catalogue hasn't been
updated in awhile, but the proprieter will I'm sure be glad to
discuss with you at length what he has and if its not in stock
either order it or wait until it comes in.)  Don't have the phone
number or address handy, but I'm sure you can get it from
information.

Ted Lee

p.s.  -- I hope there is a shorter form of your netaddress!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 17:03 PDT
From: reynolds@RAND-UNIX.ARPA
Subject: Tv scan rate and flicker
Cc: Bob Larson <LARSON@USC-ECLB.ARPA>

    Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 03:22:19-PDT
    From: Bob Larson <LARSON@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
    Subject: Re: Tv scan rate and flicker

    The easiest place to detect flicker is watching wagon wheels
    turning.  Besides the noticeable flicker, they often appear to
    turn backwards.  (Most car wheels do not have high contrast
    spokes.)

What you are describing is NOT flicker.  It is usually refered to as
"temporal aliasing" a varient on "spatial aliasing" (the "jaggies"
of computer graphics fame).  Thes are all related to errors
introduced in various signal processing techniques due to "point
sampling", the bagaboo of digital signal processing.  In this sense
even movies are "digital" (in the time domain) because of the
discrete time samples that the individual frames represent.

Personally I'm an old aliasing hater from way back.  Some of you may
have run across the "no jaggies" icon I was apparently the inventor
of back in 1981.  It's the international prohibition symbol (the red
circle with a bar sinister) over a diagonal stair-step edge between
black and white areas.

Just as in the spatial domain aliasing CANNOT be fixed by going to
higher resolutions -- temporal aliasing CANNOT be fixed by going to
higher frame rates.  This is a hot area of research in computer
graphics and there are papers in last year's and (soon to be) this
year's SIGGRAPH conference proceedings.

      1) A multiple/submultiple of the power line frequency was
    chosen because most interference is synchronous to the power
    line.

Surprisingly, this is no longer true.  American color TV (NTSC) runs
ever-so-slightly faster than 60 hertz.
-c

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Jun 1984 10:06:35-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Aliens, FTL, and the spice of Dune

Spock an alien?  Pfui!  Not even close.  If species as closely related
as humans and the great apes can't interbreed, then the chances of two
species from different ecosystems that could do so are laughably
small.  The probability that one such could even eat food from the
other's table is equally infinitesimal.

The closest thing to an alien that Spock could be is a mule.

And while I'm at it, I always wondered if the whole lot on board the 
Enterprise were colour blind or what?  It'a fairly obvious that they 
never saw Spock's blood in its true hue, because copper-based blood 
(which his purportedly is) is blue, not green.  Copper does appear in
some green substances, eg malachite, but blood isn't one of them.  
(For the sceptics out there, copper-based blood is a real thing, right
here on mother Terra, in the bodies of horseshoe crabs.)

It all comes back to the suspension of disbelief.

Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA:
binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #115
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jun 84 2003-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #115
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:
                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 10:54:32-EDT
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: How old is Enterprise?

Just how old was the Starship Enterprise?

Available data indicates Enterprise components assembled in San
Francisco Navy Yard.  Robert April, first Captain of the Enterprise,
directed construction.  His wife was first medical officer stationed
on Enterprise and designed several of the medical equipment as the
needs arose.

Christopher Pike was second captain of the Enterprise.  Spock served
on Enterprise, under Pike, for 11 years, 4 months, and 5 days.

James T. Kirk was third Captain of the ship on a 5 year mission.
The Enterprise underwent a minor refit early in the mission (between
Where No Man Has Gone Before, stardate 1312.4 and The Man trap,
stardate 1513.1), probably due to the damage sustained in WNMHGB.
The incident with Khan Noonian Singh took place stardate 3141.9
during the five year mission.

The first movie takes place 3 years after the end of the five year
mission, during which time the ship is completely redsigned and
refitted.  Captain William Decker oversees the refit, but Admiral
Kirk relieves and replaces him before actual space duty.

In ST II:TWoK, Captain Spock is in command of the ship, making him
the fifth known captain of the Enterprise.  Minor refit and new
bridge station locations noted.  Kirk meets Khan after 15 years from
meeting during 5 year mission.

ST:III takes place right after ST:II, I do not have stardate data
from movies, will have to reference novelizations.

This puts a minimum final age of the Starship Enterprise from birth
at 32 years, not counting Captain April's mission time, or time
between Captains.

Assuming Kirk first ran into Khan during the 2nd year of the 5 year
mission, the Enterprise was only 9 years old since redesign/major
refit.

Comments Please???

Cheers,
Gern

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 84 12:38:10 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: STIII:  The Search for Spock (SPOILER!!!!)

Re a recent message regarding flames and smoke coming from the
wrecked Enterprise in STIII--the Enterprise at that time was NOT in
the vacuum of space, it was falling through the atmosphere of the
Genesis planet, hence the legitimacy of atmospheric effects such as
smoke!

On the sillier side...if Spock and the little critters were
regenerated on the Genesis planet, what does anyone give to the
chances of seeing in STIV a "reborn" Enterprise manned by a "reborn"
David?

Live Long In Phosphorus!

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 1984 1433-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Shades of 1984 (st III)

It's amazing how the enterprise can film everything that is going on
even during the most critical battle situations (that is when you
would want to see everything isn't it?). Maybe 1984 is only 300
years away as it is in ST III?

                Warren sander (Sander at DEC-MARLBORO)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jun 84 13:21:55 PDT
From: Rich Wales <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: ST III (how long is a star date?)

In ST III, as Kirk and Sarek watch the computer's visual log of the
confrontation between Spock and McCoy in the engine room, there is a
numeric scale at the bottom of the screen ticking off star dates.

I've only seen ST III once so far, but my fairly definite
recollection is that:

(1) Said numeric scale showed the star date to four decimal places.

(2) The last decimal place was definitely ticking off faster than
    once per second.  I think it was slower than twice a second.  My
    "gut reaction" at the time was that it was going at about 100
    ticks per minute, but I didn't actually time it with a
    stopwatch.

I suppose someone could use this info to figure out exactly how long
a star date is (at least, how long it is in subjective time,
disregarding any relativistic time dilation or other
considerations).

I am, of course, not sure doing this would be worth it.

-- Rich <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 Jun 84 22:19:45-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: STIII (yet more)

I must concur that the Klingon image has been totally downgraded by
STIII. I suppose you could say the klingons we saw were just part of
the semi-official Klingon "privateer" fleet, but still, they seemed
more like Orion renegades than members of a military dictatorship.

Another thing. Why are the Klingons now so strange looking with the
warped skulls, and all? I seem to remember them being pretty much
human looking, and I presume that even with Star Trek the TV show's
low budget, if it had been desired that Klingons look so strange,
they would have made them look like the weirdos they now seem to be.

And did you believe T'pau -- wearing LIPSTICK? The Vulcan ceremony
was the most ridiculuous thing I've seen in a long time.

And why is Starfleet now such a bunch of twits? The image of all
previous Star Trek material is that Starfleet consists of a group of
dedicated, hand-picked, incredibly gifted naval types, not the gang
of dimwits presented by STIII.

With all the weirdness and inconsistency in STIII, I still agree
with a previous flamer who admitted that he liked it anyway.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 2:03:49 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: STIII:  Bird of prey?

Even though it is strange that the ship is painted and referred to
as a bird-of-prey (that is a Romulan contrivance), however the ship
other than the painting looked Klingonish (two legs and a ball at
the end of the neck).

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 84 12:04:14-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!)

1. The Klingons at Genesis were rebelling against the Klingon empire
itself (notice that they are a different race of Klingon from the
ST-I Klingons).

2. Vulcan is not a mainstay of the Federation -- they have always
been a fringe group; remember T'pau refused a seat in the senate.

3. After Kirk et. al. left for the Enterprise, Uhura scrambled all
federation communications, so that the other Federation star ships
were getting soap operas on their sub-space radios.  Then she
high-tailed it to the Vulcan embassy where Sarek granted her
diplomatic immunity and took her to Vulcan.

                Thought you'd like to know.
                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 84 7:04:31-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!elsie!imsvax!rcc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!)

One problem with your article.  If you want to rant and rave about
how meaningless Spock's death was, if they were going to bring him
back why did they kill him in the first place, etc., direct all
screams >Leonard Nimoy.  The plot for ST II was designed for one
purpose only, to write Spock out of Star Trek.  His death was
originally planned to occur a third of the way through the movie,
but after word got out, they decided that Spock's death would have
to be the climax of the film if things were going to work.  Then, of
course, somewhere through the production of ST II, Nimoy was having
so much fun that he decided he wanted in on ST III, also.  (I'd give
a lot to see Harve Bennet's face when he got *that* piece of news)
So, they went back and shot a few extra scenes that would make a
"ressurection" possible (the remember scene and the Genesis planet
surface scenes) and Bennet started tearing his hair out trying to
figure out how he was going to write Spock back *in*.  Given the
rather conclusive way he wrote Spock out, I think he did a pretty
good job.

Sure, the film has a few problems, but all in all, I'd say that it
was solid, vintage Star Trek.  Now, I'm waiting for Star Trek IV.
That should be good.  Capt. Styles gets thoroughly embarrased, Kirk
ends up with Excelsior, and then viola, Star Trek V: The Wrath of
Styles... :-)

The preceding message was brought to you by --

                Ray Chen
                umcp-cs!eneevax!imsvax!rcc  (NEW ADDRESS)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 7 Jun 84 09:54:11-EDT
From: D-LAMB%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek III - spoiler

My overall reaction was: good, but not as good as STII.  There were
some inconsistencies that bothered me.
1. The other Saavik was better.
2. The Klingon ship kept changing size.

3. How can Spock remember his last words to Kirk, if he
   memory-dumped to McCoy *before* then?

Old SF-Lovers fans will probably remember that various and sundry
folks predicted that Spock would probably be brought back by some
combination of the Genesis effect to restore the body and the
mindlink with McCoy for the mind.

It's easy to concentrate on gripes, though; the movie was well worth
the price of admission.  A friend of mine who is a real Star Trek
fan says she loved it, because it proves they've ``got the series
back''.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  7 Jun 1984 07:01:30-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: ST III - I don't THINK this is a spoiler!

Of the VERY FEW problems I had with Star Trek III, perhaps the worst
was that they used a different actress for Saavik.  I had a real
thing there for Kirstie Alley...  This new girl (there, see, I
forgot her name already!) doesn't give a convincing portrayal.  The
obvious, and to me very attractive, FEMALE ANIMAL part of Saavik, ie
her Romulan half, is totally missing.  Too bad.

Otherwise, the various plot devices, assorted acres of female flesh,
etc., were quite in line with ST II and even more so with the
series.  The Kirk humour, which was sorely lacking in ST I (eugh!)
was there in its proper place.

In response to Ed Blanchett (Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA) and his
problem with a smoke trail from a burning object in space, think
about it, Ed.  Think in terms of re-entry.  Still have a problem?

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 12:47:49 EDT
From: SV07@CMCCTF
Subject: STIII

||||||| Maybe they didn't get Kirstie Alley because she wouldn't
        have been quite as convincing in the "pon farr" (or
        whatever) scene as this other Saavik was.  It's too bad,
        too; the first Saavik *was* better.

||||||| The Excelsior looked just fine; the people who complain
        about the "new look" of the Federation's starships are the
        same people who scoff at new automobile models every year.
        Things change, people...
                The only thing I didn't like was that stupid
        "clunkety-clunk" noise.  Right out of a Saturday-morning
        cartoon.  Icccchhhh.

        There may have been a couple of other things I can't think
of now, but besides these, STIII was marvelous.  Like such movies as
Return of the Jedi and The Natural, the story and certain plot
devices did seem contrived at times, but the movie was...was so well
put-together that it successfully suspended any disbeliefs I had.  I
was on the edge of my seat, despite the inconsistencies.  It was
great.
        I'm goin' again...
                                     From Pittsburgh! (twist, twist)
                                     and the cheerful digital abode
                                     of the Graffiti Monster
                                     (sv07@cmu-cc-tf)

------------------------------

Subject: ST III - Search for Spock
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 16:44:14 EDT
From: Jeffrey Grossman <Grossman@YALE.ARPA>

Just some comments about your complaints:

    re: 'the bar scene is too reminiscent of Star Wars'

        Well, of course!  That whole scene was quite obviously a
    satire of SW.  Almost everything in there was a parody of
    something in SW: the video game (chess on the Milennium Falcon),
    the funky atmosphere (Mos Eisley), the overly-weird alien head,
    and, best of all, when McCoy tries to hire a pirate vessel a
    security officer breaks up the talk!

    re: 'how come Kirk can see through the cloaking device but the
    computer can't'

        *That's* why he's captain, and the computer isn't.

    re: 'Kirk got away too easy'

        I agree, he flew off too easily, but he probably has not
    heard the last of it from the big brass at SFC.

                                        Live long and prosper, or
                                        Live again and be re-fused

                                                    Jeff G.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 84 22:35:45-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!)

I found the largest hole of all in the plot: Star Fleet Command has
declared the Genesis System "off limits" to everyone, is up to its
drives with legal/political/moral/... difficulties pertaining to the
Genesis device, its creation, its use, and purpose, etc, and they do
not have *one* starship protecting the system.  The single ship
there was for the scientists (according to the first few minutes of
the film), although its captain was sure power-crazy.

In fact, this may very well be how they plan to give Kirk et nausea
a new ship: "Well Jim, it seems you and your officiers
single-handedly, and at great personal peril, prevented the Klingons
from ...."

Barf city!

bruce giles
decvax!ucf-cs!giles

P.S.  I liked the other saavik better.  This one looks too much like
a typical American actress with funny eyebrows and ears.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #116
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jun 84 1206-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #116
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
           Books - Dickson (4 msgs) & Gilliland & Varley,
           Films - Remember These? (5 msgs) & DUNE & Popularity &
                   A Book on SF Films & Indiana Jones (2 msgs),
           Television - V: The Final Battle & Genesis II & 
                   24 FPS (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 8:22:31-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Final Encyclopedia

        "Does anybody know when Gordon Dicksons' Final Encyclopedia
        is going to be available?  It seems like its been promised
        forever as the conclusion for his Dorsai stories."

Remember a couple of years ago when a certain Big Name manufacturer
of magnetic media portrayed full page color ads showing Gordon
Dickson touting their brand of floppy disk?  He said that he
wouldn't trust the word processing source to Final Encyclopedia to
anything less.

My fantasy is that the novel files got trashed and he had neglected
to make backups.

("Whaddya mean, you typed 'rm * bak' instead of 'rm *.bak' ?!)

-- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                     (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 20:23:39-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re:final encyclopedia

  Someone recently asked about the final book in Gordon Dickson's
Chylde cycle (or something likee that) called "The final
enceclopedia".  Well, in this month's Analog magazine it is reviewed
in their Reference Library section.
  Generally, the books reviewed there have been out for a few
months, but in this case I don't know.  I have not seen it on any
book stalls.
                               Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP:  {decvax,ucbvax,harpo,allegra,inuxc,seismo,teklabs}!
        pur-ee!Physics:dub
INTERNET:       dub @ pur-phy.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 11:46:09-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Final Encyclopedia

   I don't know when "The Final Encycolpedia" is due out, but the
last book by Dickson that I bought had a few lines on the cover
advertising Dickson as "The author of The Final Encyclopedia".  I
expect it's on its way.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 3:59:06-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA

I learned from a well-informed source (he works for Gordy Dickson)
this past New Year's that THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA has been in the
hands of Ace Books for quite some time. They just haven't scheduled
it yet.
                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!
         dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 11:05:00-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!hamilton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Techno-sf - (nf)

There's also a fourth, non-rosinante, gilliland novel (looks like
they dug it out of the archives after the other 3 sold well).  can't
quite remember the title, but i'm pretty sure it was "(something...)
the empire" (as in "escape from..." or "fall of...").  if you liked
the emphasis on politics and intrigue in *.rosinante, you'll
probably like this one too.
        wayne ({decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!)hamilton

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 14:49:00 PDT (Monday)
From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Titanide sexiness.
To: LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA

Hey, one of my close friends just happens to be a Titanide.  Her
name is Wind Chimes (Sharped Mixolydian Trio) Chorale.  In her case,
the stories are definitely true.

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 84 0:29:53-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Remember these...

All easy ones.  The film with the robot and the spaceship, of
course, is the CLASSIC "The Day the Earth Stood Still".  Someone
would almost have to be hiding in a closet for 30 years not to have
seen this one.  Klatuu to you, too.

As for the Outer Limits episodes (the lizards attacking the dam, the
"acid rain", etc... I provide the following excerpts from my
official online "Outer Limits Episode Guide"...

[The star rating is my personal opinion from one to four stars; the
 date is that of the original network airing of the episode.  Maybe
 it's almost time for me to post the entire guide (and the Twilight
 Zone guide) again...]

The Mutant                                    (3/16/64)     **
   A man, accidently caught outside in an isotope rainfall on a
   newly discovered planet, turns into a mutant who can kill simply
   with his touch.  He holds the whole outpost in isolation via this
   ability to destroy, and eventually has to deal with an inspector
   sent out to find out why things have been kinda strange with the
   outpost (the only one on the planet).

Tourist Attraction                            (12/23/63)     *
   A lizard-like creature is captured and frozen by an expedition in
   South America.  It defrosts and does predictably horrid things.
   A real loser.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 07 Jun 84 09:16:56 PDT (Thu)
Cc: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

 >  > How about this one ?  Some alien lands in Washington with a
 >  > robot who guards the ship.  I seem to recall this was one of
 >  > the first science fiction movies with any class.  All I
 >  > remember with this one is that the alien tries to get back to
 >  > his ship at the end of the movie and some human helps him, I
 >  > think.
 >
 > This was "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Michael Rennie.
 > The Robot's name was Klaatu.  You are correct - this movie was
 > one of the first and still one of the best good science fiction
 > movies.

I agree, this and "Forbidden Planet" are usually listed together as
the two classic SF movies: TDtESS showing the typical sane scientist
amid insanely paranoid military types, and FP showing a mad
scientist amid sane (reasonably: a little girl happy after a long
voyage) military types.

Klaatu was the name of the man from the ship.  The robot was called
Gort.  But if you prefer, in the short story "Farewell to the
Master" on which the movie was based, the robot's name was Gorth.  I
feel the plot of the movie was better than the story, but since they
were completely different except for some characters, the story is
worth reading on it's own merits.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 11:56:11-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!seismo!roc
From: hester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

[ GORT, Klaatu Borada ...er.....uh oh!]

Sorry to bore everyone with this again, but...

"THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL" ... Yes, Gort is the name of the
robot (Also our pet name for our VAX 11/780!) and it is Patricia
Neil's character who is told by Klaatu (Michael Rennie) "If any-
thing should happen to me, tell Gort, 'Klaatu Borada Nikto'.  DON'T
FORGET!...".  Apparently, if she didn't, Gort would destroy the
world (never stated, but implied).

QUESTION: Does anyone know what 'BORADA NIKTO' means???
          If you do, please reply by mail to...

                                The Comfy Hobbit Hole of---

                                -The Parker Hobbit
                                 a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri

UUCP:           {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit
                decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit
ARPA & CSNET:   hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 11:40:11-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

   The movie wherein an alien ship lands in washigton, leaving a
robot to stand guard, is "The Day the Earth Stood Still". An alright
film, but nowhere near as good as the story it was freely adapted
from: "Farewell to the Master", by Harry Bates. Boy, did I like this
one!  It appeared in Astounding, lo these many years ago (1941?),
and the author was, I beleive, ASF's first editor (circa 1930). The
ending was >much< more effective than that in the movie.
   I hope I got all the details of the citation right; it's been a
few years since I read the story.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 14:07:51-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Remember these...

>>  The Mutant                                    (3/16/64)     **
>>     A man, accidently caught outside in an isotope rainfall on a
>>     newly discovered planet, turns into a mutant who can kill
>>     simply with his touch.  He holds the whole outpost in
>>     isolation via this ability to destroy, and eventually has to
>>     deal with an inspector sent out to find out why things have
>>     been kinda strange with the outpost (the only one on the
>>     planet).
>>
>>  Tourist Attraction                            (12/23/63)     *
>>     A lizard-like creature is captured and frozen by an
>>     expedition in South America.  It defrosts and does
>>     predictably horrid things.  A real loser.

"The Mutant" sounds like the one I remember, but "Tourist
Attraction" does not.  I seem to recall people trying to figure out
their language and I distinctly remember there being many of them.

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
(201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 84  16:12 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: trailer for DUNE

I think I saw the same trailer.  A definite "bladerunneresque" look
about it - dark and dingy.  I think they were either showing a scene
on Geidi Prime, the Harkonnen home world, or DUNE is going to be NOT
what any of us expect.

My imagination expects brilliant white sands and blindinglybright
SUNSHINE.  The trailer does not show any of that.

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Jun 1984 13:22:26-PDT
From: eppes%r2me2.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Nina)
Subject: Popularity

In SF-LOVERS Vol. 9 #108, Scott Turner says "...I'd say that Indy II
is outselling ST III even during prime time."  Well, there was an
article in the Boston Globe recently that stated that in its first
weekend Star Trek III out-grossed Temple of Doom's first weekend.
(Can't recall the exact figures.  They were fairly close --
something like $16.9 million for ST and $16.3 million for ToD.)

                                                -- Nina Eppes

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Jun 84 22:51:27-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: SF Movies - Book

There have been a lot of posts recently about SF movies.  May I
recommend to you a good book on the subject:

        John Baxter: Science Fiction in the Cinema
                     (The International Film Guide Series, 1970)

It discusses plot, theme, psychology, and all that good stuff, and
covers (roughly) the period from Metropolis to Farenheit 451

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Jun 1984 11:50:05-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Indiana Jones - SLIGHT SPOILER

 *** *** *** *** *** *** SLIGHT SPOILER *** *** *** *** *** ***

Having seen IJatToD, I must disagree with the enthusiastic comments
so fair aired in its behalf.

It is *NOT* a good film.  Oh, don't get me wrong - I enjoyed it in
spots, but it has several failings:

1.  The plot really isn't one; it's just an excuse for the Indy
    Follies.  Not that RotLA's was much better, but it at least made
    sense - this one doesn't even have that quality.

2.  There is no character development.  And there are no characters.
    The girl, especially, is a notable noncharacter - contrast Karen
    Allen's character in RotLA with the screaming hysterics (and
    very little else!) of this bubblehead.  Why Indy would ever get
    interested in her is a mystery.

3.  The gore was all too realistic and overdone.  Half of it could
    have been left out with a net gain in enjoyableness.  Consider
    the sacrifice scene.

4.  The action was too frenetic.  The really great thing about RotLA
    that made it so wonderfully exciting and enjoyable was the fact
    that there were pauses for the viewer to catch his/her breath,
    to take stock and see that all arms and legs were still there.
    Not so in IJatToD.  It's one continuous action sequence from
    start to finish.

I'll probably go to see RotLA if it comes round again.  But I won't
bother with IJatToD.  Better to spend my money on Star Trek III,
which I liked immensely.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 84 12:06:53 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #107

Will someone tell me how Indiana Jones even remotely qualifies as
Science Fiction?

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 4:09:25-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: Nonsense in V

> Sorry, John was superior to Sarah Douglas.

> David D. Levine

*No one* is superior to Sarah Douglas! :-)

                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!
         dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 84 1:32:14-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Genesis II 2

Ah yes -- Genesis II.  Filmed at the University of California
Riverside campus (at least the exteriors) while I was there.  We had
great fun cheering the burning of the Library....

When it came out, we had fun laughing at how the people kept
teleporting all over campus (the scene-to-scene continuity was
RIDICULOUS iff you knew campus geography well).

Ah, memories of youth....

Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 84 8:36:56-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!rd
From: in!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Reason for 24 fps

>I believe the 24 fps speed is the minimum speed required for lip
>sync -- i.e, the minimum speed at which the sound track can be
>synchronized with lip motion and have the latter appear natural.

Super 8 sound records sound at 18 fps.

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 Jun 1984 15:19:46-PDT
From: libman%grok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Sandy Libman)
Subject: Wagon Wheels

RE: The easiest place to detect flicker is watching wagon wheels
turning.

Good Grief!  Haven't you watched any television in the last decade.

There aren't any more wagon wheels.  They've all become helicopter
rotors.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 14:23:06-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!twh
From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Reason for 24 fps

Super 8 cameras (good ones) record sound movies at 18 *OR* 24 fps.

Movement with/without sound  does not look good at 18 fps.

24 fps is too slow, but not as noticeable.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #117
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 84 1124-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #117
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 15 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:
       Books - Clarke & Gilliland & Peake & Japanese Stories,
       Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still (4 msgs) & Star Wars &
               Temple of Doom & 24 FPS (2 msgs),
       Television - Outer Limits & Dr. Who
       Miscellaneous - Getting Rich by Time Travel & Physics &
               Magazines for Sale

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 8:12:45-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Clarke's Laws (Re: Death Star weapon)

Since a misquotation of Clarke's (First) Law was posted to sf-lovers
a week or so ago, and nobody has put in a correction, I thought I
would.  The previous poster referred to a "highly placed" scientist,
which isn't it.

While I'm at it, I include his other Laws and his comments about
them.  The rest of this message is excerpted from "Profiles of the
Future" by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973 revised edition.

        Too great a burden of knowledge can clog the wheels of
        imagination; I have tried to embody this fact of observation
        in Clarke's Law, which may be formulated as follows:

                When a distinguished but elderly scientist states
                that something is possible, he is almost certainly
                right.  When he states that something is impossible,
                he is very probably wrong.

        Perhaps the adjective "elderly" requires definition.  In
        physics, mathematics, and astronautics it means over thirty;
        in the other disciplines, senile decay is sometimes
        postponed to the forties.  There are, of course, glorious
        exceptions...

[Some pages later]

        ...[T]he only way of discovering the limits of the possible
        is to venture a little past them into the impossible.*

[Footnote]
        *The French edition [of the first edition] of this book
        rather surprised me by calling this Clarke's Second Law. ...
        I accept the label, and have also formulated a Third: "Any
        sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
        magic."

        As three laws were good enough for Newton, I have modestly
        decided to stop there.

Posted by Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 18:53:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!hamilton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Techno-sf

the gilliland title i couldn't quite remember is "end of the
empire".  the copyright date is '83, so maybe it isn't pre-rosinante
after all.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 14:23:00-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hpfclg!bayes @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: request for info

>Can anyone tell me who wrote the book "Titus Groan" (the first of a
>trilogy)?  Any idea where I could find a copy?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Wendy Nather   {ihnp4!,seismo!,allegra!}ut-sally!pooh

I believe Titus Groan was written by Mervyn Peake.

Scott Bayes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jun 84 13:19 MST
From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Japanese swords and sorcery

I would like to request from the users of this meeting a list of
books and authors.  What I am looking for are sword and sorcery
novels set in the orient (Samurai, dragons, demons, etc.).  The only
one I currently know of is RAJAN, by Tim Lukeman.  Any help would be
appreciated.  Don't let this one stump you like my previous request
for stories about what robots do on their day off.........
                    >RUSTY<          RNeal%pco -at cisl

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 22:06:34 PDT (Tue)
To: hobbit.buffalo@Csnet-Relay
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

To my knowledge, and that of my reference books, the meaning of
"Klaatu Barada Nikto" was never disclosed.  However, the robot's
behavior implies one of two messages.  The first would be a simple
plea to help Klaatu rather than destroy the Earth.  As you pointed
out, Klaatu never said that Gort would do that, but he told the
woman that he was afraid of what Gort would do if he were killed.
When she asked him what a single robot could do, he said that it
could destroy the world if it decided to.  He later said the same
thing to the scientist, Professor Barnhard.  Thus one interpretation
would be "Klaatu Needs Help".

The other possibility stems more from Gort's immediate action upon
hearing the message: he returned to the ship and activated the main
screen.  Klaatu used this screen on at least one occasion, and it
seemed that he was giving verbal commands to the ship's computer.
He might also have been communicating with confederates, either for
advice or help for his 'demonstration'.

Gort's use of the screen could have been for two purposes: to use
the ship's instruments for locating Klaatu, or for getting advice
from the ship's computer or others.  I doubt Gort would have
consulted the ship's computer, due to the nature of the intelligence
Klaatu described built into the robot police force.  It is possible
that he might want to consult humans on a policy matter if
specifically instructed to by Klaatu.  Thus the second
interpretation might be "Klaatu requests you seek advice", or just
"Gort, Phone Home" (I can't take credit for the pun, it appeared
some time ago on a bboard).

I don't have a preference between these theories.  I can't see
Klaatu sending a message (in the event of his death) to Gort just to
come and help him, although he certainly might send something like
'help me if possible, otherwise consult the home office before doing
anything rash'.  Given the length of the message, I would expect
Klaatu to instruct Gort to phone home for instructions, but it
seemed to me that Gort was using the screen to find Klaatu rather
than communicate (just a feeling, really).  Klaatu's description of
the robot police force made it clear that they were mentally as well
as physically capable of destroying the planet, which implies a high
degree of intelligence and independence.  I doubt Gort would think
of phoning home on his own.

My pet theory is that the message, if we knew the literal
translation, would still be somewhat cryptic.  I believe that Klaatu
was reminding the robot of part of the Code it followed: that it
must exhaust all possibilities before becomming violent on a
planetary scale (Klaatu mentioned that they AUTOMATICALLY react
against aggressors, but there must be some tempering in there for
cases like when it's master just disappears).  This reminder may
have been in the form of quoting a rule, or something like "Klaatu
is the policy-maker on this mission".

In other words, I don't believe the message was a request at all,
but something with special meaning to the robot, that would
interrupt the automatic strike reflex and get it started thinking
and recognizing it's options (including BOTH or EITHER rescuing
Klaatu or calling for advise) before it went berserk.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 1984 1557 PDT
From: Jeff Skaletsky <JEFF@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Gort! (what did he ask me to say?)
Reply-to: JEFF@JPL-VLSI.ARPA

A friend of mine OWNS Gort, bought from a studio auction.  He, by
the way was one of a few: this one is simply a rigid statue, about 8
feet tall, I seem to remember (haven't seen him in a while).  I
tried to get my friend to install him in an elevator on the front
lawn, so that he would rise when you rang the doorbell.  Anyway, I
asked Gort what "Klaatu Borada Nikto" meant, and he told me it was
"Klaatu will tell you where the 3-in-One is if you don't destroy the
world."
                                {_Jeff_}

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 15:05:31-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

        "Klaatu Barada Nikto" means, "Klaatu says not to bother with
    destroying the earth."
                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 9:59:02-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!iwsl4!m2int @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

You all are wrong the robots name in the Day the earth Stood still
was GORT.  Klatu was the man .

                  Charles Smith

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 13:24:12-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Continuity error in Star Wars (trivia question)

        There is a continuity error in "Star Wars" which, to the
best of my knowledge, has been spotted by no one but me. I offer
official accolades (i.e., I'll post notice of your brilliance) to
anyone who can figure out what the error is.
        Scene is as follows: Luke, Han, Leah, et. al., have just
made good their escape from the deathstar, and destroyed the sentry
ships.  Han and Leah are having a conversation on the bridge of the
Millenium Falcon. There is SOMETHING WRONG with this scene.
        Anybody want to take a crack at it? I'll post the answer in
a couple of weeks, along with suitable praise for anyone who answers
it correctly. If you have a tape of SW, checking it is not cheating;
the error is not obvious even while watching.

                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:            {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Jun 84 19:03:13-EDT
From: Bernard  Gunther <BMG@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Temple of Doom

A few weeks ago, a friend of mine, mis-hearing the mention that the
film Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, thought he heard "Temple
of Dune" to which he said the most memorable line from this movie
never to be:

  Standing on the edge of a five mile chasm, "Sandworms! Why did it
have to be sandworms?!"

Just thought you might appreciate it.

Bernie Gunther
(bmg@xx)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 12:39:44-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!davew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Reason for 24 fps

 Silent movies were shot at 16 fps which gave a resonably jitter
free picture. When sound recording came along it was found that the
optical sound system could not record a sound above 4500-5000 Hertz
because of the size of the film grain.  While this would be good
enough for speech, it was not good enough for music and sound
effects. The film speed was increased to 90 feet per minute (24 fps)
to get better sound response.  Optically recorded sound tracks
generally begin rolling off at 7000 Hertz. It was found that this
was an acceptable number as many of the movie houses of the time had
very poor acoustics and higher frequency response only added to the
problem. Many of the movie houses were long and narrow (They were
called shooting galleries) and standing wave problems were common.
When stereophonic sound recorded on magnetic film came out in the
fifties many of these problems resurfaced and the theaters either
had to do some acoustic treatment to their facilities or roll off
the sound at about 7-8000 Hz. Incidently magnetic film is the
correct term as it was either magnetically striped 35 mm prints or a
seperate 35 mm acetate film base coated with magnetic material. The
sound track was run through a special playback unit sync'd up with
the projector.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 11:26:20 EDT
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: wagon wheels

well, since wagon wheels tend to appear to rotate backwards when
viewed in the real world, i sorta doubt ANY film speed could avoid
this problem.  remember that your vision system has a scan rate,
too.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 1:25:19-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: "Tourist Attraction"

The "Tourist Attracton" Outer Limits episode may still be the one
being discussed.  The guide only gives a very brief summary.  In the
actual episode, they do indeed figure out the creature's language
and find out that it is calling for "help."  A whole slew of the
creatures appear from the deeps (LOTS of them!) and they destroy a
dam and do other similar things.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 6:22:35-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsh!rrj @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dr. Who question

Can anyone tell me what, exactly, is a jelly baby?

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  7 Jun 1984 07:15:09-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Selling fuel to Patton, reprise

> From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
> Subject: How to get poor via time travel

> In reply to all the "sell gas to Patton" ways to get rich all one
> has to look at is the price of gas today and in 1944-45. Even with
> the war and rationing gas still sold at about $.30 - $.40 per
> gallon. Even if Patton was extremely rich and would by your gas
> how can you make money buying $1.20 per gallon gas and selling it
> for say $.50 - $.60 per gallon (Patton wouldn't pay $1.40 or so
> for gas). That is more like how to get poor via time travel.

The point Warren is overlooking is obvious.  Assuming that selling
petrol to Patton were a good idea, which I don't, then the only
sensible way to get it would be to time-travel to the days BEFORE
the war and purchase it at $.19 per gallon.  The catch there is
money.  But if you travel even further back and take advantage of
Warren's own suggestion to invest in some 200-years-old collectible,
say two or three Brasher Doubloons or One-penny Black stamps, then
sell it in 1935 to get the right kind of money, and THEN buy the
petrol, who's to complain?

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 12 Jun 84 13:15:41-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #109

There is no second law of thermodynamics.  There is, however, a
postulate that something like entropy exists (with a long list of
properties) and another postulate that it tends to reach a maximum
with respect to unconstrained variables.  This 1st, 2nd, 3rd "law"
stuff is strictly 19th century (well, part of the 20th).

Read Laszlo Tisza, "Generalized Thermodynamics" or Herbert Callen,
"Thermody- namics".

Summary: They aren't laws, just postulates. (and they have been
verified to break down with very large or very small systems.)

                                'Nuff said,
                                Wang

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 8:12:43-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!4375jlf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Early F&SF Magazines For Sale

For Sale:
The Magazine of Fantasy, Vol.1 No.1 (Fall '49) and Vol.1 No.3
(Summer '50) (This was the progenitor of F&SF Mag.)
Fantasy & Science Fiction: Dec. '50, Dec. '51
Fantasy & Science Fiction: complete years; '52, '53, '54, '55, '56,
'58, '59, '61, '62, '63, '64.  Also Jan. & Feb. '65.
All in excellent condition.
In re-reading these over the past couple of years, I am amazed
at how much of what we now think of as "classic" SF was first
printed in F&SF.  Other good stuff too--like the stories that
were later turned into "Wodehouse Playhouse" on public TV.

Terms of Sale:  $125 plus approximate UPS charges.  I can be
reached usenet reply, or phone (201) 842-4248 after 6 PM EDT.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #118
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 84 1202-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #118
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 15 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:

               ****** SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 84 22:31 CDT
From: Jerry Bakin <Bakin@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Consistency is for a Logical Calculus, not for Star Trek.

I am glad that I caught all of the inconsistencies noted by the
intrepid readers of SF-Lovers.  I definitely liked the flick anyway,
and I think I know why the inconsistencies haven't been a problem to
the enjoyment of the cine.

Let's remember, this is Star Trek.  Has Star Trek ever been
consistent?  If so, why not journey to the Ellison planet and ask
the Guardian of Forever for Spock?  If that doesn't work, take the
Excelsior on a hairpin ride around a star, and travel back in time,
and grab Spock out of the engine room and into the Excelsior's beam
room.

Admit it, if the plot had been consistent it wouldn't have been Star
Trek!

I've been away from the ARPAnet for about two months, so forgive me
if these comments are a little stale.

Other comments on STIIITSFS:

 o Once you realized it was Reverend Jim the cabbie, did the Klingon
   Commander seem nearly as mean?

 o The Hunter male has long served country.  It is good to see that
   Howard Hunter's lineage is continued into the Star Trek era.  I
   bet all those Hunters have been just as pompous.  I wonder when
   Howard get's a kid in Hill Street Blues?  Maybe he gets one of his
   hooker friends pregnant.  But this discussion is better off in
   net.blues....

 o Scottie was given at least a week to disable the Excelsior, a
   task that would only take him an hour or so. (He'd say fifteen
   minutes inorder to maintain his reputation.)  Obviously he spent
   the rest of the week getting the Excelsior to make the Saturday
   Morning Cartoon noises.

 o From my American Heritage Dictionary: Excelsior n.  Wood shavings
   used for packing, stuffing, etc.

 o Have people noticed the presence of Yeoman Janice Rand in the
   bar?

The biggest lose was the loss of Kirstie Alley (sigh)

Jerry.

P.S.  I guess that V'ger can take care of itself, but that seems
      like a more powerful weapon than the genesis bomb.
      (cf. Startide Rising)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 84 6:22:55-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!alice
From: !alb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek III -- "In Search Of... Spock"

You have it backwards.  The Klingons did not steal the Bird of Prey
from the Romulans.  Rather, the Klingons gave the Romulans most of
their technology.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jun 84 18:26:48 edt
From: Beth Gazouleas <beth%Upenn-ASP%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: stIII (more spoiler!)

it's possible that spock knew his last words to kirk because mccoy
knew them.  i don't remember, was mccoy conscious during that scene?
i think he was because he and scotty stopped kirk from running into
the irradiated chamber with spock.  so perhaps spock has a few of
mccoy's memories mixed in with his own?  i realize this sounds
contrived, but why not?

also, here's a contrived explanation for why spock didn't blow up
with the Genesis planet.  his cells were regenerated by the genesis
effect, but it was an unstable regeneration, like the planet.
perhaps spock's naturally stable state was the age he was when he
"died".  the planet had no naturally stable state, so it blew up,
but spock stopped degenerating when he reached the state he had been
in.  this is also contrived, but i like it better than saying he was
"tied" to the planet and stopped aging because he was taken out of
its atmosphere.

the planet blew up! i think that means we've really seen the last of
david and the enterprise.  at least i hope so, it would be pretty
bad if they were so starved for plot that they had to bring them
back.

all in all, though, i loved the movie.  i've seen it twice already
and i hope to see it many more times.  i really do think they have
the flavor of the series back, scantily clad women and all.  i can't
wait for st IV.

               --beth
                 (beth%upenn-asp@upenn@csnet-relay)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 14:11:26 EDT (Sunday)
Subject: Re: Shades of 1984 (st III)
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>
To: Sander@DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA

        'It's amazing how the enterprise can film everything that is
        going on even during the most critical battle situations
        (that is when you would want to see everything isn't it?).
        Maybe 1984 is only 300 years away as it is in ST III?'

Perhaps there are recorders not unlike the "black boxes" found on
commercial airplanes.  They'd cover critical areas like the bridge,
engine room, weapons control, etc.  If you run an endless tape (say
2 hours on Enterprise.  It's about 30 minutes on airliners), you
will constantly overwrite the normal, uninteresting stuff.  When
something interesting occurs (like a space battle, or running into a
star, or someone jumping into the engines), you remove the tape for
the records.
                                Hail Eris,
                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 14:25:22 EDT
From: Eric <LAVITSKY@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #115

        Date: Wed 6 Jun 84 22:19:45-PDT
        From: Laurence R Brothers <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
        Subject: STIII (yet more)

        And did you believe T'pau -- wearing LIPSTICK? The Vulcan
        ceremony was the most ridiculuous thing I've seen in a long
        time.

 Remember that the Vulcans were once one of the most barbaric,
illogical races in existence. Many of their old ceremonies and
traditions simply stayed with them, perhaps as a means of
remembering what perils such barbarism and illogic brings -much like
the Jewish tradition - "Remember what so and so did to you" etc.. so
it would not happen again. Surely there is no logic to the ceremony,
but it is something so ancient and so personal to the Vulcans, that
not even they can clearly justify its existence...

"The word is warp speed"
Wreckless Eric
                        ARPA: Lavitsky@Rutgers
                        UUCP: ...harpo!whuxlb!ru-blue!lavitsky

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Jun 84 11:12 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: ST III - Vulcan Matriarch

The old woman in charge of the Vulcan ceremony was NOT the one from
the Amok Time episode.  Celia Lovsky played T'Pau.  I don't believe
that Dame Judith Anderson was referred to by that name in the film,
so perhaps she was meant to be a different character.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 84 21:43:46-EDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: stIII: Genesis vs V'ger

I have to agree with the posting that suggested that V'ger (from
ST-1) would make a better weapon that Genesis.  I mean, V'ger
digested whole planets just to see what made them tick.  Having just
seen ST3, I am disappointed that the 2nd and 3rd flicks have
completely ignored anything from the 1st movie.

The 1st movie was VERY MUCH about Spock -- his struggle between cold
logic and human feelings -- which should he choose?  I hope the
trekkies who keep downgrading ST-1 will think about this.  And yes,
that Vulcan ceremony in ST3 was a lot hokier, but otherwise much
like the entry thru V'ger's cloud cover.
... mike k

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 1984  08:45 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: STIII

        Of course they destroyed the Enterprise: it was too old and
too badly damaged to repair.  On the other hand, are you familiar
with the a custom of the US Navy: whenever a ship is destroyed in
combat, the next one of that class is often given the same name (how
many vessels named Enterprise have there been...?).

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 12 Jun 84 14:38:44 EDT
Subject: Dumping the ST File

Time to dump the Star Trek file in preparation for the long wait
'til ST IV: Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Federation...
I've seen some celluloid colanders in my time, but this one you
couldn't even drain bowling balls in.  How are we to take a
big-budget movie where they can't even keep the spaceships the same
size from scene to scene?  The only way I could accept ST III was to
consider it the descendent of real midlate Sixties High Camp, like
Batman circa 1966.  (If any of you are creaky-old enough to have
watched Batman in 1966...)  The capper was having the Excelsior limp
out of Starbase sounding like a '69 Mustang about to drop its
transmission.  Yes, I laughed, but hell, this is Star Trek, not
Airplane VIII or something.

My personal favorite character was the Klingons' dog.  As my dear
wife observed: "I'd hate to be the one who had to wash the rugs
after that mutt rolled on 'em."  Amen.

Speaking of Klingons, this may be the time to print the Klingon
Christmas Carol I wrote some years back, to the tune of "Christmas
Is Coming (The Goose is Getting Fat)":

Klingons are coming; they pack a lot of clout/
Rev up your hyperdrive and let's clear out!
If you haven't got a hyperdrive a phaser beam'll do,
But if you haven't got a phaser beam then Ghod...help....you!

High Camp.  I can forgive them this.  I forgave them the Yangs and
the Comes, after all.

Odd note: Sometime in the ukky early-mid Seventies a friend dropped
this groaty girly mag in my hands and said, "Poor Uhuru.  That it
had to come to this."  And sure enough, there she was, leaning on a
chair as God made her, though without the 3C28 heatsink clipped to
her earlobe.  Did anybody else see that?  I'll bet it's worth some
kind of a fortune today.  Makes you wonder what Nichelle is going to
do if the current ST revival dribbles out.  She's a little old to go
back to Jugs Monthly--Beware the Perils of Typcasting!

Now let's talk about something else, please!

--Jeff Duntemann    duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 12:09:00-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: ST III (not a spoiler)

> at one point several actors (no names mentioned) were looking up
> at the sky from a planet and seeing something burning (am not
> saying what it was), and seeing smoke trailing from it. How can
> smoke exist in space, where there is not atmosphere to hold it? Or
> could that have been light deflected from particles from the
> burning object?

It wasn't burning in space; it had hit atmosphere, and was burning
on entry.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 10:48:09-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!py
From: uxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek III (what else? -- contains SPOILERS &
Subject: QUESTIONS)

First, I loved this movie.  It *felt* like an episode.  It *felt*
like I was watching a new episode of the ST series and not a movie
based on that series, and for me, that was good.

Now on with the pixie hats, and the asking of silly questions and
the making of wsilly comments:

1. I was kind of disappointed that T'Pao didn't call Spock "Tspoke"
   the way she did in "Amok Time".  The Vulcan Vestal Virgins were
   definitely what I would call visually disjunctive.

2. Will the Enterprise be regenerated by the Genesis effect?  Since
   protomatter was used in Genesis, isn't the following scenario
   possible?  David and Kruge are regenerated, but due to a time
   warp caused by the protomatter they go back in time to a Los
   Angeles high school and the streets of New York City.  David
   becomes a nerdy/neo-punk student, and Kruge, due to brain damage
   from the regeneration, becomes a derelict who later becomes a cab
   driver (on Square Pegs and Taxi, respectively).  Don't you
   remember Reverend Jim saying "I used to command a spaceship" from
   time to time...

3. Was it EXACTLY the same destruct sequence used in "Let That Be
   Your Last Battlefield"?????

4. WHAT ABOUT THE ORGANIAN SPACE TREATY???  Didn't that "treaty",
   imposed by the Organians, mean that ANY violence between the
   Klingons and the Federation would cause the same interference by
   the Organians as in the original episode, or am I misinterpreting
   the essence of the treaty?

5. Was the opening inset scene (shown in black and white) with Spock
   dying in the chamber talking to Kirk *re-shot*?  His \\// hand
   didn't slide down the glass as I remember it?

6. To add a few of my favorite quotes to Roger's:

        "That's what happens when you miss staff meetings."

        "Because the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the
        many."

   That last one really got to me.  In a way, as long as we're busy
   drawing analogies to the SW trilogy, "the needs of ..."  quotes
   from both movies are slightly analogous to the trading of "I love
   you"--"I know"s in TESB/ROTJ.

7.  In "Menagerie", when Spock showed the footage of the Enterprise
    under Pike, the "film" was stopped with someone exclaiming "No
    starship keeps (kept?) such records!" Do they do so "now" (in
    ST3 time)? (Apparently) I'm referring to Kirk's playback of the
    scene from ST2 in engineering.

AT THE TONE PLEASE LEAVE YOUR NAME AND NET ADDRESS. THANK YOU.
                                            Rich Rosen    pyuxn!rlr

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 1984 1650-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: STIII (not a spoiler)

I saw the movie and liked it but I recommend that you read the book
to get all the seens that were cut from the movie (or not filmed at
all).

Isn't to bad that to see the complete movie you have to wait until
it is on TV. Movies like SUPERMAN (ecch) had many scenes in the TV
version that they didn't have in the theaters (is that because
theaters make money by moving people through in the shortest
possible time and TV makes money by stretching out the movie so that
they can put in more commericals) anyway I would like to see the
missing scenes from ST-III.

                Warren Sander (SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 7:34:03-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek III (what else? -- contains SPOILERS &
Subject: QUESTIONS)

Thank you, Mr. Rosen, for shedding new light and different
perspectives on this fanatico-culttype/religion which seems to
preclude common sense for a strange affliction of
hyper-rationalization.
    Forgive me for my mutational tastes, but not being attracted to
cults, I find many other forms of entertainment superior to Trek
movies. 'Scuse me now, I think I hear Vulcan slave calling......

                                        Andrew
...{rlgvax | decvax | ucbvax!allegra}!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh

"From the ever cycling epicenter of Rochester...."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #119
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 84 1132-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #119
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:
        Books - A Short Book Review,
        Films - Gremlins (4 msgs) & Ghostbusters (2 msgs) &
                The Day the Earth Stood Still (3 msgs),
        Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Jun 84 11:08:36-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Book Notice

This book was published in April, it says, but I only just read it

        Kirk Mitchell : Procurator

It is subtitled "a novel of alternate history" and "the glory of
Rome lives on", which should tell you what it's about.

The Roman Empire has survived until today, and is still expanding.
Technologically they are about at the equivalent of Europo-American
WW II, with some good twists, such as flamethrowers called "portable
Greek fire projectors", and some more amusing terms that are
plausibly evolved from the latin language and Roman history.

It's a reasonably good adventure story, with fairly stock
characters; my one beef is that the hero tries too obviously to act
like Marcus Aurelius.

Worth the $2-75 I paid .  Ace Books 0-441-68029-1

WARNING: The blurb on the back says too much.  You might prefer not
         to read it.  The point of historical divergence is given in
         the blurb, and ALSO on a page just after the title page.  I
         wish I'd read neither of them before starting on the story

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 84 2:19:24-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elmer!goun @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Gremlins

I went to see Steven Spielberg's "Gremlins" last night.  Here are
some of my impressions; I'll try not to generate any spoilers.

In the first thirty minutes or so, I had to wonder if this whole
thing was just some toy company's way of cleaning up next Christmas
with "Gizmo" dolls, T-shirts, games, etc.  It was simply too cute to
live!  By the time things started getting gross, I'd had so much
cute I was numb to the thrills and chills.

If this movie has a spiritual father, it's a classic short called
"Bambi vs.  Godzilla," in which the lovable deer is crushed beneath
the foot of the giant reptile.  "Gremlins" parodies an amazing
number of motion-picture cliches, including (naturally) some
Spielberg movies.  It's right on target, and often very funny.

I loved the mother's scene in the kitchen with the gremlins, and the
gremlins in the bar were wonderful.  Billy's love interest I could
have done without.  She was a carbon copy of the wimpy teenager in
"WarGames."

The creature animation reminded me of "The Dark Crystal."  That is
to say, very natural-looking motion, and creatures that I believed
could just have escaped from somebody's nightmare.  The only fault I
could find was with the frequent close-ups of Gizmo, which looked
rather plastic (especially the eyes).

I'd put "Gremlins" somewhere between "Star Trek III" and "Indiana
Jones" in terms of being worth your $4.50 this week, or even more if
you don't love "Star Trek."  I'd take a ten-year-old to see it, but
I'm not too sure about a younger child.  My shock quotient may be
abnormally high these days after seeing "Indiana Jones."

                        "Nothing shocks me, I'm a scientist."

                                        Roger

ARPA:    goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13
         77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749
MCIMail: RGoun
Tel:     (617) 568-6311

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 12:54:37 EDT
From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Gremlins Rave/view

    Displaying an absolutely perfect mixture of humor and nastiness,
Joe Dante's film "Gremlins" is an exhilarating exercise in
filmmaking.  The story is particularly well developed and the
special effects are terrific.
    The setting is the town of Kingston Falls, a place which Norman
Rockwell would have been proud of. There is a tasteful dusting of
brilliant white snow everywhere, and when people get drunk they
remain nice and sensible. Enter the ill fated Rand Peltzer, an
inventor who has just bought a most unusual Christmas gift for his
vapid son, Billy.
    This gift, the obscure Mogwai, is named Gizmo and is arguably
the most effectively executed creature ever developed. The full
range of facial expressions are dazzling and convincing, not to
mention endearing.
    Before you can say "gosh!" all of the three cardinal rules
regarding the little critter are broken and all hell breaks loose.
It seems that when you feed them after midnight they change into
something worse than a landlord (hard to believe, I know, but
nonetheless true).
    This resulting mayhem is what the film leads up to, and it is
well worth the wait. Hundreds of demonic Mogwai descend upon the
town in an orgy of violence and fun. Some of the best scenes occur
in the bar where Billy's girlfriend Kate (Phoebe Cates) gets stuck
serving drinks to these sharp-toothed and low-tipping creatures. The
deadly Mogwai are absolutely hilarious in their overt humanness; the
`guy' smoking three cigarettes at a time, the jazz listener, and the
break dancer (!!!) are absolutely incredible to behold.
    Mixed in throughout the film are references to a host of other
films and film genres. The ordering of a "vodka martini, shaken not
stirred," by a upwardly mobile bank worker was quite amusing,
although no one else in the audience seemed to share my enthusiasm!
    There is no doubt about it; "Gremlins" is a tremendous movie. So
far I have seen it twice, and plan on seeing it a least a couple of
more times. The pacing, script, and cinematography are all superb.
The deliberately flat human characterizations are interesting and
effective in highlighting the validity of the Mogwai. I can only
hope that audiences take the initiative to check out the film for
themselves, rather than relying on unfavorable reviews from the
likes of Vincent Canby from the NY Times.

*Steve*

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 84 22:33:40-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!otto @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: GREMLINS comments

Once you suspend your disbelief enough to accept the existence of
these creatures*, this movie is light, tight, exciting, and tense.
The scary scenes are nicely balanced by humor that creates a kind of
magical aura surrounding the deeds shown.

There seems to be a trend in films recently of having jokes and
humor happening in the background while the action proceeds in the
foreground.  I noticed some of this in the Inventor's Convention
scenes.  (Equipment and dialog taken right out of other films!)
Were there other background jokes in other parts of the movie?

On the whole I would recommend this picture, although I could
understand how it might give young ones nightmares.

                                        George Otto
                                        AT&T Bell Labs, Whippany

* These creatures should *never* be allowed contact with water, must
  be kept out of the light, and must *never* be fed after midnight!
  Hmmm...  Sounds like the result of normal evolutionary forces to
  me. (:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Jun 84 21:59:28 edt
From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
Subject: Gremlins ... slight spoiler

        I just saw Gremlins last night and really enjoyed it. I can
understand why some people didn't like it: you have to be prepared
to not take the movie to seriously. The only part of the movie I
didn't like much was the ending, when the movie started taking
itself too seriously (the moral of the story and everything). As for
gore, a lot of people died, but the only gore was gremlin gore.
Maybe you just have to be sufficiently warped to appreciate it,
especially the Pelker Gremlin Peeler and Juicer, and the microwave
oven scene.
        Something I really liked about the movie was all the hacks.
Here's a list of the ones I can remember off the top of my head:

        1. Billy is at the bar doing some cartooning. "Mr. Jones" is
           sitting next to him and tells Billy he's improving. Watch
           the credits at the end; Mr. Jones is Chuck Jones of
           cartoon fame.

        2. Billy's father is at an inventors convention or something
           like that. Robby the Robot shows up for a while and you
           can hear him saying some of his lines from Forbidden
           Planet, the first movie he appeared in.

        3. Again, the convention. The first time we see Billy's
           father calling home, there's a machine behind him with a
           big rotating circle on it and a man sitting in it. The
           next time we see him, the machine is gone and people are
           looking around obviously trying to figure out what
           happened. The machine was the Time Machine.

        4. A gremlin breaks the phone lines while Billy's trying to
           warn his mother. The gremlin says that famous line "Phone
           home."

        5. In the drugstore by the stereos there's a record display
           for a hypnotism record, by "Dr. Dante". Joe Dante directs
           the film.

        And there must be others. It was great having a something in
a scene bother me and then realizing what was wrong with it and the
joke which had been played.

         I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the movie; any movie
described as "CUTE" in ads is likely to turn me off, but the
cuteness wasn't really sickly sweet most of the time. Even Gizmo,
gremlin #1, rolls his eyes when he's described as being cute.
                                                - John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Jun 84 13:30:17 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Ghostbusters Four Stars
To: movies@BBNCCH.ARPA

We highly recommend GHOSTBUSTERS for an overall fun time, good SFX.
Slow beginning, picks up soon and stays in full gear.  They're ready
when you are.

Also of note: the video on MTV for "Ghostbusters" theme song.

Daniel P. Dern
Linda P. Vigasin

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 7:30:33-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Ghostbusters (see it)

Thought it was great.  (*** out of ****)

Now, to pick it apart...

 Probably Bill Murray's best role ever (mixing the incredible
restraint he demonstrated in "Tootsie" with his usual craziness).
Ackroyd (sp) was a little weak, undoubtedly making room for Murray.
I was somewhat disappointed with Sigourney Weaver's role, which was
too confused to be believable.  The major problem I had with the
movie was more or less the same thing: an uncomfortable (to me,
anyway) mix of comedy and end-of-the-world theme.  Call me
old-fashioned.  Anyway, despite the problems mentioned, I still
enjoyed it quite a bit.  Rick Moranis (of MacKenzie fame) gives a
great performance as the nerdly accountant down the hall from SW.
The SFX are pretty good, and quite a bit more numerous than I
expected.

After a number of line-feeds, I've excerpted a VERY FUNNY scene
that, alas, had a bad word (referring to the male anatomy) in it
(but it's one of the milder terms for the male anatomy).


{Murray, Ackroyd, and Ramis are talking to the mayor after an EPA
agent shut down part of their operation, cause the caca to hit the
fan.  Ackroyd says to the mayor: "Everything was going fine until
'Dick-less' here (pointing to the EPA guy) shut down the grid."
(The guy tries to get at Ackroyd, but other people restrain him.)
The mayor turns to Bill Murray and asks, "Is this true?"  And Murray
responds, "Yes, it is true, this man has no dick."  (The guy really
tries to get Murray, but is restrained.)

Well, I thought it was really funny.

Randwulf  (Randy Haskins);  Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 84 17:39:39-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Gort! (what did he ask me to say?)

>> Anyway, I asked Gort what "Klaatu Borada Nikto" meant, and he
>> told me it was "Klaatu will tell you where the 3-in-One is if you
>> don't destroy the world."

I haven't seen the movie in a while.  What does "3-in-one mean" ?

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
(201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 84 9:23:11-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!nelson @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Spoiler: Day the Earth Stood Still

How can there be a spoiler for a movie that's almost 30 years old?
Well, the movie was derived from a short story called "The Master",
unknown author, unknown collection. Sorry! The gist of the story is:

[spoiler]

>> Ship lands, message is delivered, emissary is shot, robot takes him
inside the ship for temporary revival (this last part I'm not certain
of). The robot comes back out and some earther officials apologize to
Gort, "We're sorry we killed your master". Gort replies, "You don't
understand, I am the master", of course.

Glenn Nelson    Ampex Corp., Redwood City, CA
                ...!{nsc|hpda|megatest|amd70}!fortune!dsd!avsdS!nelson
                415-367-2499

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 14:51:00-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?

To Jim Hester: I think your theories are all wrong, if you take into
account the original story mentioned by Keiran Carroll.  In this
story, the human has just helped Gort to revivify (actually,
reconstruct) the dead Klaatu, and as Gort is carrying Klaatu to the
ship to leave, the dialog goes something like this...  (note, Gort
could speak in this story)

Human: "Gort, when your master awakens, please tell him it was an
accident."

Gort:   "You don't understand.  *I* am the master."

Obviously, things were changed around a bit for the movie!  Still
one of the all-time SF classics.

Gary Fritz
Hewlett-Packard Co
Ft Collins, CO
ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 14:55:14-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!jrb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Who question - (nf)

>> What is a jelly baby

They're sort of like jelly beans (I think that they also bear a
certain resemblance to Gummy-Bears).

                                John R Blaker
                                UUCP:   ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb
                                ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1
                                and     blaker@FORD-WDL2

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 84 10:32:02-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!utai!j
From: enkin @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dr. Who question

A Jelly Baby is NOT a preserve made from human children, it is,
however a sweet manufactured by Rowntree (in England).  The sweets
come in various unnatural colours and flavors, and are shaped into
more or less human forms.

Aside from their nutritional value, they can be used as a weapon
(The Face of Evil). No TIME LORD should be without one.

Michael Jenkin
University of Toronto

"My Parents went to Gallifrey, and all they got me was this crummy
T-shirt"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 06:23 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who.

Jelly babies are really what they sound like - they are sweets about
an inch long made from jelly and made in a roughly humanoid shape.
They are very common in the UK and generally come in a mixture of
the following colours: Red, Green, Yellow and Black.
          deryk.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #120
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jun 84 1628-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #120
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
          Books - Brust & "Wintermind" (2 msgs) & Peake &
                  Oriental Sword and Sorcery (2 msgs) & Varley,
          Films - Williams/Courage Collaborations & 
                  The Stars My Destination & Dune (2 msgs) &
                  Film Speed & Upcoming Films & "Enemy Mine" &
                  Ghostbusters (2 msgs) & Gremlins,
          Miscellaneous - W&W

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 84 11:48:39-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!dietz @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Brust Books

I just read "Yendi", Steven Brust's second book.  I found it and the
sequel/prequel "Jhereg" quite enjoyable, if somewhat lightweight.
The plots are delightfully complicated.

                        "Do you want her to turn you into a newt?"
                        "I'll get better."

                        cornell!dietz
                        dietz@usc-ecla

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 7:43:45-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!edb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Review of 'Wintermind' (no spoilers)

I have just finished a book by Marvin Kaye and Parke Godwin entitled
*Wintermind* which is fantastic.  Chillingly realistic and
enthralling.

*Wintermind* is set in the far (far!) future after an invasion of
the USA succeeds.  The conquerors are later stranded and the society
changes.  Many factions form and this book is about the mingling of
three of them - the City, the covens, and the "cowans".

The City folk pursue knowledge, the "cowans" survive, and the covens
have developed a telepathic group-consciousness.  The story relates
how individuals in the three groups react to change and culminates
in a terrifying revelation about the very real differences between
the City and the covens.

I found this book very fine.  The action is fast and you don't begin
to realize that all is NOT well until rather late although the
protagonists have their problems like normal folk.  And by the time
you realize that things are not right, the pace is swifter and it is
impossible to stop.

READ THIS BOOK!!  Other comments?

Emily Brooks    ...ihnp4!akgua!edb

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 84 17:16:38-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Review of 'Wintermind' (no spoilers)

I also very much liked _Wintermind_ and read it several months ago,
when it first appeared.  I am anxiously awaiting the next book.

note that _Wintermind_ is a SEQUEL to _The Masters of Solitude_ by
the same authors (which I also liked very much).

        Audrey Ishizaki
        HPlabs
        Palo Alto, CA

        ...ucbvax!hplabs!ishizaki

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 84 12:15:40 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Mervyn Peake

A recent inquiry was posted re TITUS GROAN.

This is indeed part of a trilogy.

The full trilogy is:

TITUS GROAN
GORMENGHAST
TITUS ALONE

All three are by Mervyn Peake.  They were available several years
back from Ballantine/Del Rey.  I'm not sure of their current print
status...

I recommend them highly, they are very moody and atmospheric books.
My personal favorite is the middle book, Gormenghast....

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 14:01:15-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
To: rneal@his-phoenix-multics.arpa
Subject: Oriental Sword and Sorcery

There is a set of three books by Jessica Salmonson, the Tomoe Gozen
saga, which fits into this category.  The books are currently in
print in paperback.  One of them is called The Golden Naginata.  I'm
afraid my library is at home, but since most bookstores shelve by
author you should be able to locate them.

Also, E. Hoffman Price has a book called The Devil Wives of Li Fong.

Oh, if you've been turned off by Jessica Salmonson's other writings,
it might still be worth looking at Tomoe Gozen.  If you haven't read
any of her other writings, don't worry about it.

                        -- David Dyer-Bennet
                        -- decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@BERKELEY

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 9:03:46-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix
From: !orca!mako!ariels @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Japanese swords and sorcery

Just about everything WRITTEN by Jessica Amanda Salmonson is
Japanese S&S.

The Tomoe Gozen Saga:    [edit comment:  pretty good stuff, gets]
  currently including:   [better as it goes along               ]
   Tomoe Gozen
   The Golden Naginata
   The Thousand Shrine Warrior

Swordwoman (or is it Swordswoman?) [edit comment: not as good as TG]

There are also some Japanese and Oriental S&S stories in the Amazons
books that JAS has edited.  Most notably "The Woman Who Loved the
Moon" by Elizabeth Lynn.

Ariel Shattan
..!tektronix!mako!ariels

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 6:40:22-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: DEMON (non-spoiler)

Just putting in my vote for John Varley new book DEMON.  If you
enjoyed TITAN and WIZARD you won't be disappointed in DEMON.

                                Rick Schieve

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 16:18:09-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!w
From: anttaja @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re:  Williams/Courage Collaborations

<This probably got neglected in the hubub over St3's release, but
I'll answer it anyway>

> Here's an interesting trivia question: On what movie(s) did
> Alexander Courage (ST series and STTMP) and John Williams (SW
> etc.) collaborate on the music??

The answer is, surprisingly enough, "Fiddler on the Roof."

Not the primary music, of course, but they were credited under
"orchestration" and other incidental music credits.  But now, my
curiosity is piqued (sp?).  Anybody know of any other movies they
collaborated on??

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 12:49:48-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: THE STARS MY DESTINATION on film

        I was the person who originally posted the thing about how
nice this Bester book would be as a movie. Another netter, Alexander
Burchell, added that it *is* being filmed, or at least that a script
has been bought.  I have one more followup; I heard from a friend
recently, that it's John Carpenter who's doing the film. If this is
true, I'm rather pleased.  My own nominee for director had been
Spielberg, but I'm willing to change my mind. I haven't liked all of
Carpenter's movies (I'm more into SF than horror), but I've liked
some of them (DARK STAR, THE THING) very much, and I think
Carpenter's approach to films could be very well-suited to this
story.
        Anyone heard about this, or have more information?
                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:              {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 84 12:44:10-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!otto @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Dune: the poster

Well, today I saw my first billboard advertisement for *Dune*.  It
is in Times Square, NY, and says

                            D U N E

                "A world beyond your experience.
                        beyond your imagination."

           COMING DURING CHRISTMAS TO A THEATER NEAR YOU.

It shows a man and woman facing each other in the standard "just
about to lean toward each other to kiss" position that Hollywood
seems to like to use when they don't know what else to put on a
poster.
                                        George Otto
                                        AT&T Bell Labs, Whippany

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 84 23:52:49-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dune: the poster

Times Square, New York???

I can see it now -- Paul M*dab (well, its been a while since I read
the book) riding a giant sandworm, and a local artist's surgical
addition of....

Sorry, this is a `PG' rated net.  But you get the idea.  Perhaps the
newspaper ads will include the more interesting aspects of the
movie.

ave discordia
bruce giles
{decvax, duke}!ucf-cs!giles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jun 84 21:16:43 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: silent film speed

While 16 fps is frequently quoted as "silent speed", and is the
speed at which more discriminating theaters show silent films,
silent films were actually shot and shown at variable speeds.  They
ran anywhere from 12fps to 20fps, depending on the cameraman and the
type of scene.  Since silent camera equipment was hand-cranked, this
kind of variation was easy to do.  Also, most silent projection
equipment was hand-cranked, so the projection speed was also subject
to variation.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jun 84 21:26:15 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: trailers for "The Neverending Story" and "2010"

They showed both of these trailers before "Gremlins" in the theater
where I saw it.  "The Neverending Story" looks very interesting,
with a lot of bizarre creatures and imagery.  If any flaw is
apparent, it could only be that the film might end up overly cute.
But then, Germans tend to mix in gloom and nastiness with their
cuteness (read the original Brother's Grimm), so this may be OK.  I
was under the impression that it was shot in German, but there was
some brief dialog in the trailer in English, and it was either shot
that way or was a superior dubbing job.

"2010" looks rather prosaic.  All the old gang is back, and several
new characters, of course, but the scenes shown can't touch the look
of the original.  Only to be expected.  Lots of shots of black slabs
tumbling through space, a somewhat hokier space child, HAL
questioning orders again, a feeble attempt to summon back the image
of Kubrick's shot of Dave reentering the airlock, and so on.  It
didn't excite me that much, but I don't have great expectations for
this film anyway.  The effects look OK, but they didn't show
anything extraordinary.  Maybe (probably) they aren't done yet.

                                Peter Reiher
                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Jun 84 16:10:28 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: film version of "Enemy Mine"

A while ago I posted a notice that Wolfgang Peterson (the German
director of "Das Boot" and "The Neverending Story") had taken over
as director of this film, but I didn't have any other information.
The LA Times had an article about the film this Sunday.  It is
indeed adapted from the novella by Barry Longyear (spelling?).  It
stars Lou Gosset and Dennis Quaid.  It was originally to be filmed
in Iceland, but Peterson decided to film in Germany and one of the
Canary Islands.  The action takes place on an alien world, and
Peterson was not satisfied with the way Iceland looked in the
existing footage, which was scrapped.  It's to be filmed in English,
as, it turns out, was "The Neverending Story", although that too was
shot in Germany and used a mostly German crew.  (By the way, "The
Neverending Story" apparently cost $26 million dollars to film,
which makes it the most expensive German film ever.  It's doing very
well in Germany.)
                                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 09:46:21 PDT (Mon)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS

        Yes, this movie CAN be classed as Science Fiction/Fantasy
with no problem for those of you who are wondering, and no, I don't
intend to define either to support my claim.

Micro-review:

        This movie is GOOD.  It's funny, well done, colorful and
exciting.  Go see it.

** ** ** SPOILER WARNING ** ** **  (scene setting only -- no ending)

Review:
        Once upon a time, in New York, in a University, there were
three PHDs (or semi-PHDs) researching (or semi-researching)
paranormal activities.  This is the story of what happens when two
events combine: they actually come face to face (yes, literally)
with said phenomena, and they lose their research grant and get
kicked out of the University.  Now believers and out of work they
decide to go into the business of catching ethereal critters for a
living.  Fortunately for (and unbeknownst to) our heroes, they have
picked an ideal time to go into this business, as the spirit world
is getting ready for a really big time and some V.I.S. big-wig named
Zoog (Zool?).  Sigourney Weaver (sp?  also known as the heroine in
"Alien) does a fine job as a strong, sensible musician suddenly
tangled in the world of spirits.  One might ask if she is becoming
type cast in this kind of role, but one (me) might not care too much
since she does such a good job.

        This is an extremely funny movie, the acting is great, the
script is great, the special effects are perfectly adequate (as
opposed to over-done) and if you accept some of the basic premises,
the story holds together nicely.  I came out of this one smiling and
chuckling, which is a recommendation all by itself.  This is a
five-star movie.

        sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 21 Jun 84 8:27:09 EDT
Subject: GHOSTBUSTERS!!

This is the best flick I have seen in years.  Perhaps the best
comedy since Stripes or Animal House.

I'm glad that comedies are no longer low-budget by convention.  They
spent some bux on this and it shows--there are better ghosts here
than I have ever seen on screen in my 32 years, and some
unbelievably good lines, none of which I will spoil by repeating.

Some good (and rather original) points:

  The government (EPA in particular) are the bad guys.  Bout time.

  Fighting ghosts with portable cyclotrons.  Very American, if more
expensive than silver crucifixes.

  Art Deco as a haunted art form.  Damn, I've *always* thought Art
Deco buildings were weird.

  The Ghostbusters logo.  Terrific!  At the end of the film they
show people in the relieved crowd selling Ghostbusters T-shirts with
that logo on it.  I want one!  Where are they selling them in
Reality???

  A friend of mine thought this was a slasher movie (!!!) and
wouldn't take her kids.  Actually, it isn't the least bit scary, but
some of the humor is a touch sexual and most of the best lines would
fly right past a ten-year-old.  But I would take my ten year old if
I had a ten year old, which I certainly don't want.  But take yours.

  And tell me where I can buy a Ghostbusters T-shirt.

--Jeff Duntemann    duntemann.wbst@xerox

PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good
Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of
Titan/Wizard/Demon?

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Jun 84 12:25:06-EDT
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: "Gremlins" - short comment

At last they've found the perfect audience for Disco music.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 10:34:54 PDT
From: Barry Gold <lcc.barry@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: W&W

I've run out of places to put the unofficial Wizards & Warriors
continuation installments where people can FTP them.  If you've been
reading them by FTP, you should be aware that the latest one is #17.
If you're missing some, send mail to me and tell me the latest
installment you've seen.

barry
        lcc!barry@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
        {ihnp4,ucbvax,randvax}!ucla-cs!lcc!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #121
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jun 84 1659-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #121
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:

               ****** SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Jun 1984 09:15:47-PDT
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Dave Butenhof, VAX-11 RSX AME)
Subject: STiii

> 3. How can Spock remember his last words to Kirk, if he
>    memory-dumped to McCoy *before* then?

Easy -- I was visiting my parents over the past weekend and watched
STII on my father's RCA video disk player. I noted with interest that
the EXACT same conversation ("The needs of the many outweigh the
needs of the few, or the one; I have been and always will be, your
friend") took place at the beginning of the movie!  Therefore, Spock
was not remembering the final conversation in the engine room, but
rather, the EARLIER conversation.

Oh, and in line with the now well-known "Remember" line before Spock
killed himself (one wonders why they didn't just have him take the
time to find a radiation suit before going inside, and save
themselves the trouble of resurrecting him, by the way), I noticed
after that, as Kirk, McCoy, and others watch the Genesis nebula from
the bridge, McCoy comments "Spock will never be dead, as long as we
remember him ..." or words closely to that effect.

All in all, I liked the movie.  I came out of the theatre feeling
disappointed, but not quite certain of why. On reflection, and after
reading all the messages over the net, I've decided that I liked it:
I'd even like to see it again. I think it was a simpler plot line
than STII. It was, after all, really only an epilogue to STII -- it
simply tied up the remaining plot thread (Spock).  There was less of
the bold sense of adventure; they were rehashing old things, rather
than doing new things.  But the characterizations were good,
particularly the primary ones, and more like the TV characters than
in the other movies. In STII, after the horrendous STI, I felt that
we could see our old friends again. With STIII, I feel that they
once again walk among us.

The old Saavik was indeed better (even though I think the difference
is mostly attributable to writing and directing, rather than to the
actress herself).  I guess we all pay the price of Kirstie's greed.

I think Chris Lloyd did well as a Klingon. Indeed, there were
uncomfortable shades of Taxi drifting through out the theatre. The
problem is not with the actor, but with the audience, however. We've
let ourselves type-cast him; not his fault. I think it's too bad
they killed him off. On the other hand, maybe he'll be replaced by a
Klingon who's had his forehead cleaned and pressed recently ...

As for the mess they all should be in at the end, it looks bad. STIV
should be interesting.  There are some good sides, however -- they
prevented a war with the Klingons (had they succeeded in getting
Genesis, they would surely have gone to war: that's quite a weapon).
They saved the Federation the expense of dismantling (or whatever)
an obsolete starship, etc.

I have mixed emotions about the Excelsior class ship ... it looks
funny, and certainly is not as sleek as the Enterprise; but I'll
reserve judgment for now.  We'll see, we'll see ...  December 85 or
bust!

        /dave

orac::butenhof                  (enet)
decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof       (the cold and cruel world outside)

(no company name or address 'cause we've been told not to! so who
really cares, anyway?)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 23:35:39-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: [Spoiler, by the way] Re: Early Review of Star Trek III

>  What was saavik (sp) doing with young Spock?

I believe that he was going through something called "pon farr" (sp)
which is probably analogous to puberty in humans, but I can't be
certain.  After all, what human could be certain about what's
happening in a green blooded vulcan's body?
--johnc

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 Jun 1984 13:27:17-PDT
From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: SPOCK'S BLOOD

> I have often wondered if the crew of the Enterprise was color
> blind...

They must have been (as were the cameras): Spock would have been
tinted green (or blue) just as our skin is tinted pink because of
our blood.

Steve Kovner
(I dont know how to route TO the DEC Engineering net; my address on
it is: REGINA::KOVNER   )

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 21:29:08-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!mit-eddie!barmar @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek III (what else? -- contains SPOILERS &
Subject: QUESTIONS)

rlr@pyuxn.UUCP writes:
> 1. I was kind of disappointed that T'Pao didn't call Spock
> "Tspoke" the way she did in "Amok Time".

That's because it wasn't T'Pau.  The name of the priestess in STIII
was T'Lon.
                        Barry Margolin
                        ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics
                        UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 21:04:29-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!proper!gam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek III (non-spoiler, context dependent)

I took it as:
        "The needs of the One outweigh the needs of the many."

... but I'm a pretty mystical guy.

I agree with Rich, this was a fine TV episode that happens to be a
feature length film.  That's all I ever expect, and I'm never
disappointed.  (Well, the first one WAS boring).

And yes, there were lots of inconsistencies and illogical things and
historical inaccuracies.

Who cares?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 14:55:01-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!jrb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: [Spoiler, by the way] Re: Early - (nf)

>From _Amok_Time_

        Pon Farr - The time of mating
                   It occurs every 7th year from puberty on.

Young spock was going through his 'first' pon farr.  It strips
Vulcans of their rationality.  Understandably, the Vulcans don't
like to talk about it.

Let's here it for _Star_Trek_IV:_The_Paternity_Suit_!!!

                                John R Blaker
                                UUCP:   ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb
                                ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1
                                and     blaker@FORD-WDL2

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 10:05:54 EDT
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@BBNCCK.ARPA>
Subject: ST III question (spoiler)

Over the weekend, I saw ST II on cable.  Sure 'nuff, just before
Spock takes the final plunge, he neck-grips McCoy and says
"remember..." (read mind-meld/soul-dump).  Funny, though, I don't
remember seeing that scene when I first saw ST II.  Was that scene
there in the original, or did they edit it into recent prints for
consistency's sake?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1984 07:46:07 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB
Subject: ST3 (no spoiler)

RE: Bird of Prey- The original Bird of Prey ship was a Romulan
design.  It was perhaps an old design from the hundred-year old
human-Rom wars.  For whatever reason, the Romulans later used
Klingon designed (built?)  cruisers of the type we are all familiar
with.

RE: Enterprise recordings- I've always marveled at the technology it
would take for those monitors to know when to automatically zoom-in
on Kirk's face at the most dramatic moment.  This happens in lots of
other shows also.  Some of those cameras also tilt and pan to keep
the subject always centered on the screen.  Isn't science wonderful?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 18 Jun 84 14:09:53-EDT
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #118

Was Captain Styles of the Excelsior perhaps Lieutenant Styles from
the episode (forget the title) in which they first meet the
Romulans?  He was the fellow who hated Romulans because his
grandfather had been in the First Romulan War, and who didn't trust
Spock's pointy ears especially when they got the Romulans on video.

According to the book, the computer starts permanent video
recordings in critical areas whenever there is a red alert, and
otherwise keeps a tape loop of a few minutes' duration.

You may have noticed my flaming earlier about the wonderful Saavik
character in the ST2 and ST3 books as opposed to the lousy portrayal
in the films.  I did a little introspecting and noticed I was
reacting to Saavik in about the same way that female fans have
traditionally reacted to Spock... Fascinating.  `:-)

Why don't they let Vonda McIntyre write the movies and send Harve
Bennett off to do publicity or something?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 18 Jun 84 11:36:42-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #118

I think the comment about "The Menagerie" episode (detailed film
records aren't kept) was made because Spock's footage included
scenes in the Captain's bedroom, etc.  Personally, I like the flight
recorder idea, although wasn't there an episode where the record was
tampered with?
                                Wang

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 84 12:23:23 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: STIII:  The Search...

A few possible explanations...

Re--Klingons and way they look different from those in the
television series and ST:TMP...

If you consult either John M. Ford's (excellent) THE FINAL
REFLECTION (Pocket Books), or the KLINGONS supplment for STAR TREK:
THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME, you will learn that there are several
"Klingon" races.  The three most common are the Imperial Klingon
Race (those seen in the first movie), and the various
Romulan-Klingon Fusions and Human-Klingon Fusions.  These Fusions
were created in order to allow the Klingons to interact with various
races...I recommend the Ford book at the very least--it is NOT a ST
Kirk, etc. novel, it is a novel that takes place in the ST universe,
very good...

Re--Running a Heavy Cruiser with five people...The ship was being
re-worked by Scotty, so that it was mostly automatic.  You may have
noticed that the automatic controls could only do things such as
normal space navigation.  When the Enterprise went into battle, the
system became rapidly overloaded (Scotty made comments to this
effect...)...

Re--Why a Bird?

I saw what was reportedly a earlier version of the STIII script.  In
this, the Klingons were NOT Klingons, but Romulans.  If you want to
look at it one way, it is possible that they changed the Romulans to
Klingons, but forgot to change the name of the ship...

I have come up with an alternative suggestion.  It is established in
the TV series that the Romulans and the Klingons have a technology
exchange program going (See THE ENTERPRISE INCIDENT, in which we see
Klingon ships manned by the Romulans, with cloaking devices).  It is
possible that the exchange goes both ways, with the Klingons getting
the cloaking devices--and just possibly, Romulan ships...hence, the
name, Bird-of-Prey...

Incidentally, in gaming terms (for STAR TREK: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME,
as well as STAR FLEET BATTLES and FEDERATION SPACE) "Bird-of-Prey"
is a "generic" name of a class of ships...

More comments as they burble up through the brain...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 84 17:52:00-PDT (Wed)
From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SPOCK'S BLOOD

> They must have been (as were the cameras): Spock would have been
> tinted green (or blue) just as our skin is tinted pink because of
> our blood

        Then could somebody please tell me what Jesse Jackson's
blood is based on? As he isn't pink, it must not be iron.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 84 19:21:18-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!cbosgd!cbscc!cbneb!adm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SPOCK'S BLOOD

>> I have often wondered if the crew of the Enterprise was color
>> blind...

> They must have been (as were the cameras): Spock would have been
> tinted green (or blue) just as our skin is tinted pink because of
> our blood

Unless, of course, Vulcan skin is not translucent, but opaque and
colored pink!!

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 21 Jun 1984 11:31:47-PDT
From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Suford Lewis)
Subject: Star Trek; The Excelsior

I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary recently, but
SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing material as the second
definition?

Excelsior is the comparative form of the Latin adjective excelsis,
which we should all recognize from "Gloria in Excelsis" (a phrase
impossible to avoid independent of your religion).

It thus means higher, moreexcellent
[D
(grumble) more excellent, better, nobler.
Good stuff like that.

Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page by page
because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were equivalent?  O
tempora, O mores.  (O the tempura, O the morels) O DI immortales!

                      - Suford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #122
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 84 0121-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #122
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 24 Jun 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:
            Books - Wodehouse Stories in F&SF (3 msgs) &
                    Oriental Sword and Sorcery
            Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 15:47 EDT
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA>
Subject: Wodehouse stories in F&SF

Re the following, from Vol. 9, #117:

    From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!4375jlf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
    Subject: Early F&SF Magazines For Sale

    For Sale:
    The Magazine of Fantasy, Vol.1 No.1 (Fall '49) and Vol.1 No.3
    (Summer '50) (This was the progenitor of F&SF Mag.)
    Fantasy & Science Fiction: Dec. '50, Dec. '51
    Fantasy & Science Fiction: complete years; '52, '53, '54, '55,
    '56, '58, '59, '61, '62, '63, '64.  Also Jan. & Feb. '65.
    All in excellent condition.
    In re-reading these over the past couple of years, I am amazed
    at how much of what we now think of as "classic" SF was first
    printed in F&SF.  Other good stuff too--like the stories that
    were later turned into "Wodehouse Playhouse" on public TV.

I find it very hard to believe that Wodehouse ever published
anything in F&SF.  Can the sender of this ad, or anyone else, supply
story titles and dates as confirmation of this claim?

Jonathan Ostrowsky
jo%scrc-vixen@mit-mc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 84 7:37:56-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!hogpd!jrrt @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Wodehouse stories in F&SF

I'm the guy who purchased the magazines.  On at least one cover, I
noticed Wodehouse's name.  I'll check the magazines and get a
specific listing of stories, but it will take a few days (there are
over 130 magazines, and my free time is scarce).  Doesn't there
exist some form of reference that lists all SF authors (as of
such-and-such a date), their stories, and the place the stories
where published?

Rob Mitchell
{allegra,ihnp4,pegasus}!hogpd!jrrt

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 1:45:25-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Wodehouse in F&SF

> From:  Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA>

> I find it very hard to believe that Wodehouse ever published
> anything in F&SF.  Can the sender of this ad, or anyone else,
> supply story titles and dates as confirmation of this claim?

How about:

Oct 52  "Unpleasantness at Bludleigh Court"
Jun 55  "A Slice of Life"
Dec 55  "Mulliner's Buck-U-Uppo"
Dec 58  "Honeysuckle Cottage"

plus "Ways to Get a Gal" in DREAM WORLD, Feb 57

These are most likely reprints from some other source. F&SF was fond
of this sort of thing in the 50's. Among other such "unlikely"
authors are:

Truman Capote, Lewis Carroll, Leslie Charteris (5 sf Saint stories
--- there is a recent collection of all of the short sf Saint
stories in hardcover, THE FANTASIC SAINT), Anton Chekhov, Agatha
Christie, Daniel Defoe, Charles Dickens, Allen Drury, C.S. Forester,
Robert Graves, Edward Everett Hale, Washington Irving, Shirley
Jackson, C.S. Lewis, Jack London.  Ogden Nash, Robert Nathan, Edgar
Allen Poe, Saki, James Thur- ber, Mark Twain, Jules Verne, Gore
Vidal, Cornell Wollrich, and Oscar Wilde.
        Some of these authors also had stories in other sf
magazines. Other magazines also had the following:
        Alan Arkin, Steven Vincent Benet, Al Capp, Sid Caesar, Guy
deMaupassant, Franz Kafka, Rudyard Kipling, Madeleine L'Engle,
Alexandre Pushkin, Ayn Rand, William Shakespeare (!), and Tennessee
Williams.

The period I examined for the above is 1951-1965, using THE INDEX TO
THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES, 1951-1965 by Erwin S.  Strauss and
THE INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES, 1951- 1965 by Norman
Metcalf. F&SF continues to feature reprints from
off-the-beaten-orbit authors, a recent one that I can remember
off-hand is a Woody Allen story from THE NEW YORKER about 5 years
ago.

          --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
                decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my Business">

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 84 4:01:49-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyaji
From: an @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: Oriental Sword-&-Sorcery

Here are some oriental fantasy novels that I know about. This list
is most likely woefully incomplete, but it's a start.  Since I'm not
sure what borders you draw in defining "sword and sorcery novels set
in the orient", there are probably some books in this list that
outside the scope of what you want. I included some commentary, so
that you may try to decide for yourself. All of the books mentioned
are in paperback unless otherwise noted. A "*" before a title means
that the paperback is a reprint of a hardcover, and your library may
have the latter if you can't find the former in a bookstore.

Guest, Lynn
   * THE SWORD OF HACHIMAN (Zebra, 1981)
Howard, Robert E.
   THE LOST VALLEY OF ISKANDER (Berkley, 197?)
        (Some of Howard's books are adventure fantasy set in
        India or the Middle East, the most obvious one being
        the one above. It is probably out of print, though it
        may still be in print under either the Ace or Berkley
        imprints.)
Lukeman, Tim
   KOREN (Ace, 198?)
        (This is a sequel to RAJAN. Or is it the other way
        around? Got me; I don't have either of them.)
Lupoff, Richard
   * SWORD OF THE DEMON (Avon, 1978)
Mundy, Talbot
        (A good many of Mundy's novels are adventure with
        varied amounts of the supernatural thrown in. They
        are not strictly sword & sorcery, though if you like
        Robert E. Howard's fiction, you'll probably like
        Mundy's as well. Most of his books are out of print,
        very few have been in recent (last 15 years or so)
        paperback. You may find some of them in libraries.
        The following books take place in early 20th Century
        India and Tibet; some border on science fiction.)
   CAVES OF TERROR
   THE DEVIL'S GUARD (Avon, 1969)
   FULL MOON
   JIMGRIM (Avon, 1969)
   KING--OF THE KHYBER RIFLES (Donald M. Grant, 197?)
        (This is a small press hardcover, still in print)
   THE NINE UNKNOWN (Avon, 1969)
   OLD UGLY FACE
   OM, THE SECRET OF ABHOR VALLEY (Avon, 1969; Carroll
        & Graf, 1984)
Page, Norvell
   FLAME WINDS (Berkley, 1967)
   SONS OF THE BEAR GOD (Berkley, 1969)
        (These have been reprinted since, though I can't
        recall exactly when. Even the reprints are out of
        print, though. S&S in the Howard tradition. The
        hero of both is Prester John.)
Price, E. Hoffmann
   THE DEVIL WIVES OF LI FONG (Del Rey, 1979)
   THE JADE ENCHANTRESS (Del Rey, 1982)
        (These are both supernatural fantasies set in ancient
        China)
Rypel, T. C.
   DEATHWIND OF VEDUN (Zebra, 1982)
   SAMURAI STEEL (Zebra, 1982)
   SAMURAI COMBAT (Zebra, 1983)
        (These are the three books in the "Gonji" series. They
        don't take place in the orient, but they are the adven-
        tures of a samurai warrior in medieval Europe.)
Salmonson, Jessica Amanda
   TOMOE GOZEN (Ace, 1981)
   THE GOLDEN NAGINATA (Ace, 1982)
   THOUSAND SHRINE WARRIOR (Ace, 1984)
        (These are the three books in the "Tomoe Gozen" series.
        They take place in an alternate-Earth Japan, Naipon.)
   THE SWORDSWOMAN (Tor, 1982)
        (Not really oriental s&s, but it is drawn from Japanese
        *kendo*.)
Schmidt, Dennis
   WAY-FARER (Ace, 1978)
   KENSHO (Ace, 1979)
   SATORI (Ace, 1981)
        (These are actually science fiction, but the same comment
        about THE SWORDSWOMAN applies here.)
Yarbro, Chelsea Quinn
   * PATH OF THE ECLIPSE (NAL-Signet, 1982)
        (The adventures of the vampire Saint-Germain in 13th
        Century Mongolia.)

                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my Business">

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 21:31:19 PDT (Mon)
To: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ?
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

    >  To Jim Hester: I think your theories are all wrong, if you
    >  take into account the original story mentioned by Keiran
    >  Carroll.  In this story, the human has just helped Gort to
    >  revivify (actually, reconstruct) the dead Klaatu, and as Gort
    >  is carrying Klaatu to the ship to leave, the dialog goes
    >  something like this...  (note, Gort could speak in this
    >  story)

    >  Human: "Gort, when your master awakens, please tell him it
    >  was an accident."

    >  Gort:   "You don't understand.  *I* am the master."

    >  Obviously, things were changed around a bit for the movie!
    >  Still one of the all-time SF classics.

If you take the short story into account, the question of the
translation is meaningless, since it did not exist in the story.  I
am well aware of the story: you might remember I commented on the
bboard that although I considered the plot of the movie better, the
story was worth reading, since it was entirely different.  The ONLY
similarity between the two is a spaceship, a robot, and a man with
the same name that gets shot by Earthlings.  That's exactly the
problem: the story is NO authority, since it has nothing to do with
the plot of the movie.  I have a copy of the story.  If it was any
help, I would have used it.  My guesses were based only on the
movie.

First, there have been enough people sending in "something like
this"s: let's set the record straight.  The short story was called
"Farewell to the Master", written by Harry Bates.  It was printed by
Street & Smith, Inc., publishers of "Astounding Stories".  The
issue(s) are not given, but S & S has copywrites for the story dated
1939, 1940, 1942, and 1943.  My copy is in the anthology "Adventures
in Time and Space," edited by Healy and McComas and printed (as of
my copy) 8 times between 1946 and 1954.  I was wrong about the
robot's name, it was Gnut.  The end passage mentioned by so many is
as follows (I have no cumpunctions about spoilers since the beans
have already been spilled):

       Of all the things Cliff had wanted to say to Klaatu, one
       remained imperatively present in his mind.  Now, as the green
       metal robot stood framed in the great green ship, (he siezed
       his chance.

       "Gnut," he said earnestly, holding carefully to the limp body
       in his arms, "you must do one thing for me.  Listen
       carefully.  I want you to tell your master - the master yet
       to come - that what happened to the first Klaatu was an
       accident, for which all Earth is immeasurably sorry.  Will
       you do that?"

       "I have known it," the robot answered gently.

       But will you promise to tell your master - just those words -
       as soon as he is arrived?"

       "You misunderstand," said Gnut, still gently, and quietly
       spoke four more words.  As Cliff heard them a mist passed
       over his eyes and his body went numb.

       As he recovered and his eyes came back to focus he saw the
       great ship disappear.  It just suddenly was not there any
       more.  He fell back a step or two.  In his ears, like great
       bells, rang Gnut's last words.  Never, never was he to
       disclose them till the day he came to die.

       "You misunderstand," the mighty robot had said.  "I am the
       master."

So much for the story, back to the movie.

The only thing that most people agree on is that Gort consulted the
screen in the ship in response to the message.  Most also agree that
he was about to destroy the planet before he received the message.
Therefore the message was something that (at least temporarily)
overrode Gort's first reflex (Klaatu told the girl that the robots
AUTOMATICALLY act against any and all aggressors).

The two standard guesses concerning the message are that it was a
plea for help or a suggestion (not order, the Robot Police Force
might listen to suggestions, but Klaatu specifically said that in
matters of aggression they were all-powerful and under no direction
but their own) to consult others (or the ship's computer?) before
acting.

My only addition was that unless Klaatu's language packed a LOT into
a small space, I thought it possible that the message was something
short, just to get the robot thinking and interrupt it's attack
reflex long enough for it to recognize alternatives.  This message
might have been a quote of some sort of prime directive of peace
before war or some other short message that might be meaningless to
Earthlings who don't know the complete history and relationship
between the Robots and Galactics.

My 'theory' as you call it contradicts the standard assumptions only
in the literal translation of the message.  The spirit (and effect)
of the message is the same in either case, and it's unlikely that
the writers had a much better idea of the literal translation.
Since I don't believe there is any 'correct' (and thus any
'incorrect') answer, I speculate freely on possibilities.  That
theory appeals to me, since it explains the terseness of the message
in light of the assumed intentions of the robot.  I would never
insist that I am right or that any theory that does not contradict
the known facts is wrong.  I was merely repeating common assumptions
and adding a comment of my own.

If anyone gets a real interview with someone in the know, PASS IT
ON!  All I know offhand is that Klaatu was Michael Renne and Gort
was the (then) bellboy of Grauman's Chinese Restaurant.  The people
in charge of casting were having a hard time finding somebody right
for Gort, and went out for lunch.  They hired him on the spot.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Jun 84 02:33:37-EDT
From: LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Klaatu

"The Day the Earth Stood Still" is based on "Farewell to the
Master", by Harry Bates. My copy of "Adventures in Time and Space"
(Bantam, 1946) lists it as Copyright 1939.  Bates was the founding
editor of "Astounding Stories of Super-Science" (1930..), quickly
renamed "Astounding Stories".  It is considered the first true pulp
SF magazine, given the literary standards of the Gernsback
magazines.

The story stands up well, barring lines like "[the spaceship] had
been destroyed when it was pulled into the sun."  Of course, the
visitor used "the universal gesture of peace", before saying his
only line into the television (!) cameras:

   "I am Klaatu, and this is Gnut."

**SPOILER** The visitor is then killed, and Gnut eventually
recreates him:

"As you must know, a given body makes a characteristic sound. He
constructed an apparatus which reversed the recording process, and
from the given sound made the characteristic body."

Anyone out there with a collection of Queen albums might like to dig
out the one showing a remorseful robot with blood on its hand.  The
art is adapted from an old Kelly Freas, and the robot is Gnut.

Don Lindsay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #123
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 84 1124-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:
         Art - Sf artwork (2 msgs),
         Books - Gibson (4 msgs) & Peake (2 msgs) & Wolfe,
         Films - Sigourney Weaver (4 msgs) & Ghostbusters &
                 The Day the Earth Stood Still & Dune &
                 The Stars My Destination
         Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 16:49 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: SF Artwork

        "Anyone out there with a collection of Queen albums might
like to dig out the one showing a remorseful robot with blood on its
hand.  The art is adapted from an old Kelly Freas, and the robot is
Gnut."

The illustration is from the cover of Astounding Science Fiction,
Oct.  1953 (although the story named on the cover is "The Gulf
Between", by Tom Godwin).  This and nine other cover illustrations
are reproduced in a strange book called "The Compleat Computer",
whose subtitle continues: "being a compendium of tales of the
amazing & marvelous, poetry, informative news items, articles for
edification and enjoyment, cartoons plus many other illustrations
with a special section of SPLENDIFEROUS SCIENCE FICTION ART in full
color", Dennie Van Tassel, ed., SRA, 1976, ISBN 0-574-21060-1.  It's
organized along the lines of Ted Nelson's famous "Computer Lib/Dream
Machines".  Some of it is amusing for lines like "And, similarly,
many computers are now virtually desk-top machines.  How small will
they get?".  (I vaguely recall bringing this up here a few years ago
(or maybe it's just deja-vu (this comment homage to Lisp))).

Anyway, besides Gnut, they have "The Doom from Planet 4" by Jack
Williamson (Astounding Stories, July, 1932) featuring a spider-like
robot shining a green light on a naked man (!) while a Tesla
coil-type power station glows eerily on a cliff in the background.
My favorite though is "Waldo" (Astounding, Aug. 1942 (25 cents))
showing a huge wheeled two-armed robot looming over a man in the
foreground.  The robot is evidently performing some sort of welding
operation with sparks flying. The position of its arms mimic exactly
the man's.
                        "GoodBYE, Dr. Jones! (har har har)"
                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Jun 84 10:35:54-EDT
From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Queens/ASF cover

There IS a picture of a robot holding a 'broken' human which was
both a Queens album cover and an ASF cover. However, I am almost
certain that the story was NOT "Farewell to the Master".
Unfortunately, I can't look it up 'cause my ASF collection is
conspicuously elsewhere. I'm also not so sure that Kelly Freas drew
it, but it's possible.
                                ~Jacob Butcher
                                   jacob@cmu-cs-c.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 0:14:11-PDT (Thu)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Neuromancer

Neuromancer, William Gibson, Ace Specials, $2.95 ppb.

This book seems like a three way cross between Bladerunner (the
movie), True Names by Vinge, and the Ophiuchi Hotline by Varley.
The book follows protagonist Case from the criminal underworld of
Chiba City, Japan, to the space habitat Villa Straylight.  He is a
computer "cowboy", whose job is to crack computer systems and steal
data.  The world he works in, cyberspace, is reminiscent of the
artificial world in True Names, but a lot more deadly.  The scenery
is gloomy, violent, and high-tech.  The characters are burned out,
drug-ridden, and jaded.  The computers are Machiavellian.  Authority
appears (briefly) in the form of the Turing police, who work to
destroy artificial intelligences that grow beyond certain bounds.
The love interest is Molly, a surgically modified mercenary, or
"razorgirl".

I won't recommend this wholeheartedly, because it is rather strange,
downbeat, and doesn't have much of an ending.  BUT, the language is
good, the concepts are fascinating, and the imagery is splendid.
Very realistic extrapolation.  Worth checking out if you can handle
a little gloom.

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:{ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 12:25:10-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Neromancer

I bought "Neuromancer" because I was curious to see if the book
carried the ideas in "True Names" any further.  I didn't think that
the concept of cyberspace was at all well developed or described
(though it would probably look all right in a movie, in fact it
reminded me of the arcology cityscape of "Bladerunner"), so I was
somewhat disappointed.

Once I got over the disappointment at the book being something other
than what it was hyped up to be, and what I'd hoped it was, though,
I found it generally good reading.  Keith Lofstrom is right, it is
very gloomy, and rather anti-climactic, but the subcultures which
are shown are well-visualized and the characters are more than just
cardboard (even the AI is believable, if not comprehensible).  Not
great, but worth reading.

Incidently, does anyone out there remember a series of short stories
published in Amazing (or maybe Fantastic (great magazine titles,
no?)) in the early '70s, based on a character by the name of Queer
Sal?  The tone (hi-tech punk) and the mood (gloom and doom) of
"Neuromancer" remind me of them.

                        Bruce Cohen
                        UUCP:   ...!tektronix!orca!brucec
                        CSNET:  orca!brucec@tektronix
                        ARPA:   orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay
                        USMail: M/S 61-183
                                Tektronix, Inc.
                                P.O. Box 1000
                                Wilsonville, OR 97070

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 11:23:58-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!jrb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Neuromancer - (nf)

I disagree about the gloom.  I do think that the extrapolation is
very good, not to say extremely likely.  I would recommend it
without reservation.
                                John R Blaker
                                UUCP:   ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb
                                ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1
                                and     blaker@FORD-WDL2

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 84 12:05:27-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Neuromancer - (nf)

+---------------
| Neuromancer, William Gibson, Ace Specials, $2.95 ppb.
|
| This book seems like a three way cross between Bladerunner (the
| movie), True Names by Vinge, and the Ophiuchi Hotline by Varley.
+---------------

Don't forget "Coils", by Zelazny & Saberhagen, or "Fireship" by Joan
Vinge.

"Neuromancer" had a fairly convincing social milieu, a good deal
more complex than "Fireship" (although therefore not as elegant),
and the technology is more convincing than the (totally unjustified)
various one-off ESPs of "Coils".

Rob Warnock

UUCP:{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,harpo,sri-unix,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD:    (415)595-8444
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 1:45:21-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Mervyn Peake

As long as we're discussing Mervyn Peake, I'd like to mention that
there are two different versions of the last book Titus Alone, one
more incomplete than the other.  Peake intended to write 5 or 6
books, but he suffered a stroke and was unable to complete Titus
Alone.  The Ballantine edition, the one most generally available in
this country, is Peake's typewritten first draft.  There is another
version, published by Penguin in England and recently available in
hardcover in the US, that incorporates his hand- written revisions
to the first draft.  You can recognize this version because it has a
preface by Langdon Jones.  It doesn't add a lot of new material but
it is much more coherent.  Good stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT
From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: responses to a variety of msgs.

I also wish to put in a plug for TITUS GROAN, GORMENGHAST, TITUS 
ALONE.  They are kind of heavy reading, but the language weaves an 
incredible, intricate texture into the book that is quite memorable.  
I was very much there when places were described, not just knowing 
where the characters were, but could see and feel and sense the place.

Marty

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: book to read
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 84 00:08 EDT

If you haven't read it, go read Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff".  Even
if you saw the movie.

A recent conversation:

   NM:  What science fiction are you reading *now*?
   me:  <showing book>  It's not science fiction.
        <pause>  On second thought, maybe it is, except
        for the facts.

-steve

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT
From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: responses to a variety of msgs.

 Re: "PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good 
Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of Titan/Wizard/Demon?"

Yes.  Might be a little too weak, though.

Marty

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 15:43 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Sigourney Weaver

Recently Jeff Duntemann wrote:

>PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good
>Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of
>Titan/Wizard/Demon?

Yes!! All the time I was watching Alien, Ghostbusters and other
movies she was in, I was trying to figure out who she reminded me
of. My mental image of Scirocco Jones.

-- Tom Perrine  tom@logicon.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 22 Jun 1984 21:04:04-PDT
From: saunders%prancr.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Sigourney Weaver Jones

> PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good
> Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of
> Titan/Wizard/Demon?

    She's really too good-looking, and I can't see her playing a
drunken Cirrocco.  And can you see her breaking in on Robin and
Chris (in Wizard)?  My choice is Betty Thomas of Hill Street Blues
(with her hair dyed dark?).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 09:02:22 PDT (Friday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: GHOSTBUSTERS!!
Cc: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA

"PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good
Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of
Titan/Wizard/Demon?"

I don't know if you're offering an insult to Sigourney (since
Scirocco is pretty ugly) or a compliment (since Sigourney is a good
actress, despite the fact that she hasn't had a good role since
"Alien").

If Sigourney were to break her nose, she could pass as Scirocco.  I
don't know if she would go for the dykish stuff though.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 84 13:44:43-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!cbosgd!bsw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS

Oopps, *******SPOILER*********

Ok, now that that is taken care of, I got the impression that the
Ghostbusters caused Zool and Vic whatever plus Gozer(sp?BTW, what is
the full name of Vic (the other dog-gatekeeper?)) to pop up because
they didn't enjoy having ghosts boxed up in a toaster.  Or is it
just me??
                Ben Walls
                ...cbosgd!bsw

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 84 1:49:29-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyaji
From: an @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL source

The story from which was derived THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL was
"Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates. It first appeared in the
October 1940 issue of ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION. So far as I know,
it's appeared in only three anthologies since then:

ADVENTURES IN TIME AND SPACE (edited by Raymond J. Healy and
        J. Francis McComas)
THE ASTOUNDING-ANALOG READER, VOLUME ONE (edited by Harry
        Harrison and Brian W. Aldiss)
THEY CAME FROM OUTER SPACE (edited by Jim Wynorski)

The last of those is a very interesting anthology. It reprints sf
stories that were used as bases for movies. In addition to "Farewell
to the Master", it includes "The Sentinel" by Arthur C. Clarke
(2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY); "Who Goes There?" by John W.  Campbell, Jr.
(THE THING); "A Boy and His Dog" by Harlan Ellison; "The Fly" by
George Langelaan, et al.

By the way, in "Farewell to the Master", the robot's name is Gnut,
rather than Gort.

          --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
      decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my Business">

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 10:15:37 EDT
From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Dune trailer

The preview to "Dune" is out in the theaters.  Simply put, it looks
terrific!  Scenes include Harkonnen (spelling approx!)  levitating
about, Sting running around in his blue Calvin Klein underwear,
Paul negating the homer, and the Fremen looking militant. The accent
was clearly on action, and the sets look terrific. With any bit of
luck, we have a fantastic film to look forward to this December!!

*Steve*

P.S. The rotoscoping of the `blue eyes' was not included in any of the
preview footage.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jun 84 17:14 PDT
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman%SWW-WHITE@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: re: THE STARS MY DESTINATION on film

    Another netter, Alexander Burchell, added that it *is* being
    filmed, or at least that a script has been bought.  I have one
    more followup; I heard from a friend recently, that it's John
    Carpenter who's doing the film. If this is true, I'm rather
    pleased.

            Anyone heard about this, or have more information?
                                          Kenn Barry

According to the latest "Hollywood Reported" Film Production
listing, John Carpenter is working on STARMAN, produced by Michael
Douglas.  There is no mention of TSMD anywhere, in "FILMPRODUCTION"
or "PICTURESINPREPARATION".  It is very possible that TSMD is in
pre-production or is being 'developed' at one of the various
studios.  The book is very visual and could make a great adventure
film.

Other films currently in production, out of England:

        "Legend", directed by Ridley Scott (was originally titled
        "Legends out of Darkness" according to a friend at EEG
        during Bladerunner).  "Legend" has Tim Curry listed in the
        cast.

        "Morons from Outer Space" (no comment)

        "OZ", produced by Gary Kurtz.

Sorry about TSMD, it is probably not being filmed anywhere at this
time.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 84 19:39:51-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!psc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Time travel riches - 1787 money

The very first time I read the "bring the collectable coins forward"
theory was in (of all places) a Scrooge McDuck comic.  They brought
up the issue of "hey, this is brand new", but it was considered a
feature, not a bug.  (This magazine had a wealth of good SF ideas in
it.)

So let's cross the rubicon; where *would* you cache your cash for a
few hundred years?  It would help if your "time belt" (ala "The Man
Who Folded Himself") is also a teleport device; any recently dug up
cavern or tomb would do, as would catacombs of old museums.  Anyone
who suggests safe deposit boxes doesn't remember what the average
life expectancy was for banks before FDIC.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #124
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 84 1146-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #124
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:
       Books - Llewellyn & Vertex (2 msgs) & Story Request &
               Japanese Swords and Sorcery & Galileo & 
               Wodehouse in F&SF,
       Films - Filmex (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jun 84 12:50:33 PDT
From: Rich Wales <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Salvage and Destroy" by Edward Llewellyn

I recently read a moderately interesting SF book:

                    Llewellyn, Edward.
                        Salvage and Destroy.
                        Daw Books, 1984.
                        ISBN 0-87997-898-8.

It isn't a fantastic book that you should race down to your local
bookstore at top speed to get -- and then stay up all night reading
-- but it's not bad either.

Without spoiling the plot, I can say that it is about an advanced
spacegoing civilization (the Ults) who have been monitoring Earth
for several hundred years.  When it becomes evident that human
civilization is developing spacefaring abilities, the Ults decide to
find out as much info as they can, then destroy their telemetry
beacon before Earth finds out about it.

The main character in the book is an Ultron (an Ult leader) named
Lucian, who embarks on the "salvage and destroy" mission together
with a crew of humans descended from New Englanders taken by
spaceship to one of the Ult planets around 1700 AD.  The Ults can
change their physical form within limits, so Lucian has assumed the
shape of a human male for this mission.  Ults are hermaphroditic,
incidentally, and much of the story is devoted to Lucian's trying to
comprehend and deal with human sexuality.

Lucian narrates the entire story in first person, which contributes
to its readability.  The ending was not quite what I had expected.

The name "Ult" lends itself easily to some terrible puns, by the
way.  Apparently, the title of respect for an Ultron translates as
"Your Ultimate" -- leading Lucian at one point to ask his human
crewmates to stop calling him that because it sounds silly in
English.

Whether the Ults used Ultrix on their computers is not stated.

-- Rich <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 22:25:47-EDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix
From: !tekig1!markp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Vertex The Magazine of Science Fiction

Does anyone remember Vertex? I have what I think is a complete set
of the mag, but I'm not sure. I have all of volume one, all of two
but number six, and, I think, volume three stoped at number four.
Can anyone tell me if there was a V2#6 and if there were more than
four in V3?

Vertex started in April of 1973, and was a very plush large format
mag.

Several of my personal "best liked" short stories and novelettes
come from Vertex. Several Niven, Van Vogt, etc.

                                Thanks,
 "dignified and dependable"
                                Mark Pease
                                Tektronix, Inc.
                                PO box 500 39-170
                                Beaverton, Oregon 97077
                                (503) 627-3559
                                ...tektronix!tekig1!markp

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 10:00:55-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Vertex The Magazine of Science Fiction

I also have (had? I may have sold them) most of the old Vertex
magazines.  Great magazine, I'm sorry it didn't make it. Towards the
end the quality went down, in fact that last magazine I got was not
a magazine at all but was typeset on newsprint. It tended to be a
bit more progressive and experimental than most magazines at the
time and did some adult oriented work. Oh, well.

chuq

>From the ledge of the seventh cornice:         Chuq Von Rospach
{amd70,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui         (408) 733-2600 x242

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you just
might find, you'll get what you need! -- Rolling Stones

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 23 Jun 1984 15:04:41-PDT
From: leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andy Leslie 1 Bernersh Close,
From: Sandhurst, Surrey, England)
Subject: The Man who Ruled the World

Does anyone remember a book in which a 'perfectly ordinary' guy with
a wrist watch link to a master computer somewhere, rules the world,
but no one knows apart from him?

andy

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 08:53:10 PDT (Friday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Japanese swords and sorcery
Cc: rneal@his-phoenix-multics.ARPA

There is a little known book that is chock full of Japanese samurai
fighting, acts of great heroism and bravery, magical mysticism,
sorcery, and monkish mirth.  The book is called "Tales of the
Heike."  It is about "... the days of the Heike clan ..." and the
war that they fight with their rivals, the Minamoto clan.  The
opening paragraph follows:

        The sound of the bell of Jetavana echoes the impermanence of
        all things.  The hue of the flowers of the teak-tree
        declares that they who flourish must be brought low.  Yea,
        the proud ones are but for a moment, like an evening dream
        in springtime.  The mighty are destroyed at the last, they
        are but as the dust before the wind.

The kicker is that the "Tales of the Heike," or "Heike Monogatari"
was written in the thirteenth century by "historians" of that age:
it is not fiction per se, but rather more like legend.  The events
detailed took place at about the same time that the Icelandic Saga's
were being written.  The translation that I have is by A.L. Sadler,
and can be found in most bookstores that carry non-western history
books.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 10:28:48-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Wanted: Galileo back issues

I am looking to get my hands on back issues of the now defunct sci
fi magazine, Galileo. It ran for 2-3 years about 4 years ago. If
anyone has copies, extras, pointers etc please drop me a line.

                                Andrew Hudson
                                234 canterbury rd
                                Roch., N.Y. 14607
                                1-716-244-4485

...[rlgvax | decvax | ucbvax!allegra]!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh

"From the ever cycling epicenter of Rochester...."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jun 84 10:51 EDT
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Wodehouse in F&SF

Many thanks to both Kenn Barry and Jerry Boyajian for tracking down
the P.G. Wodehouse stories that appeared in F&SF during the 50s.
I'm delighted to have been proven wrong on this.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 84 12:09:38 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: sf at Filmex

Filmex is the Los Angeles International Film Exposition, held
annually.  This year it's being held in early July (I wonder why?
What else could be going on in LA this July?), and it features a
number of science fiction and fantasy films.  Some of these (most of
these) are made by independents or are foreign, and are thus
unlikely to get wide distribution.  Filmex may be the only place
they're shown.  If you're in the Los Angeles area, or are going to
be during July, you might want to look into them.  Here is a list of
the obvious Sf/fantasy films (descriptions are direct quotes from
the Filmex brochure):

July 10 "The Company of Wolves"
                "Centering on the rich, sensual dreams of a young
        girl, this ... film ...is a macabre fairy tale set in a
        world of legend, wonder, and fear.  Angela Lansbury, David
        Warner, and Stephen Rea star."  (This may be the second
        hardest film to get into at Filmex.  Princess Anne, you
        know, the British one, will be appearing before this film to
        say something gracious and aristocratic about British film.)

        "City Limits"
                "Director Aaron Lipstadt and writer/star Don Opper,
        who made last year's low-budget sci-fi hit "Android",
        created this futuristic adventure story about a fun-loving
        bunch of kids who have survived an adult-killing plague.
        James Earl Jones, Rae Dawn Chong, Kim Cattrall, and John
        Stockwell co-star."

July 11 "The Philadelphia Experiment"
                "Michael Pare and Karen Allen star in this exciting,
        action packed sci-fi thriller, directed by Stewart Raffill,
        about a secret navy project in 1943 that goes awry, sending
        two men through time to the year 1984, where they become
        involved in a more dangerous project that threatens the
        existence of the universe.  New World's biggest project to
        date."

July 13 "Eyes of Fire"
                "The powers of good and evil clash in this haunting
        fantasy/ adventure story shot in the beautiful Ozarks of
        Missouri.  Director Avery Crounse follows a group of Irish
        pioneers through the 18th- century American wilderness into
        an eerie, forbidden valley where they are attacked by
        mysterious beings."

        "Science Fiction Omnibus"
                "The best of short sci-fi films: "The Plant", a
        lighthearted fantasy about a most unusual green plant; "The
        Quest", a modern myth based on an original Ray Bradbury
        story; "Renascence", a haunting B&W film about a woman
        tormented by a cruel master; "Strange Tangents", about a
        modern sorceress, a young magician, and a 3-foot-tall
        talking salamander; "The Final Hour", an exciting story of
        love and death on a spacecraft in the year 2213."

July 15 "Pessi and Illusia" (Finland)
                "In Heikki Partanen's wonderfully imaginative
        adaptation of a well-known Finnish fairy tale, Pessi the
        gnome and Illusia the fairy fall in love and brave the many
        dangers and diabolical creatures in a magical forest that
        lies in the shadow of war- fought by man.  Winner of the
        Grand Prize at the Berlin Film Festival's Children's
        Series."

July 16 "The Plague Dogs"
                "As heartbreaking as Lassie pursued by Nazis and as
        sinister as "1984", this animated feature by Martin Rosen
        ("Watership Down"), based on the Richard Adams book about
        two dogs who are hunted down after escaping from a
        government research facility in England, is a brilliantly
        sustained narrative and an experience that will move any
        audience."

July 17 "Ring of Power"
                "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature
        about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in
        a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of
        Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed,
        Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and
        Fire."

July 19 "Firebird" (Korea)
                "Director Eung-Ho Ko's melodrama follows the
        beautiful adopted daughter of a sorceress on a small island
        who believes that a jealous mountain god will protect her by
        destroying any man who tries to haave sexual relations with
        her.  Judging by what happens to the young artist from Seoul
        who paints her in the buff, we have no reason to doubt her."

Those in LA can pick up Filmex calendars a lot of places, including
most record stores and many movie theaters.  If anyone outside of LA
wants particulars on ordering tickets, exact times, and locations,
send me mail.  I hope to see all of these films (and several others,
not sf), and will post my impressions of the ones I see.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        ARPA: reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                                        UUCP: ucbvax!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 84 12:43:16-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: sf at Filmex

Ok, sounds good...

        What IS Filmex?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 23:09:09-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: sf at Filmex

> From:            Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
>
> July 17 "Ring of Power"
>               "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature
>       about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in
>       a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of
>       Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed,
>       Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and
>       Fire."

This sounds like a re-titling of ROCK AND RULE, which came out a
couple of years ago and ended up a disaster. I never got a chance to
see it (I think it lasted only a week in Boston), but considering
the reviews it got, I'm not sure that I wasn't fortunate.

                  --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 84 2:44:31-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: sf at Filmex

>> From:            Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
>>
>> July 17 "Ring of Power"
>>              "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature
>>      about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in
>>      a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of
>>      Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed,
>>      Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and
>>      Fire."

>This sounds like a re-titling of ROCK AND RULE, which came out a
>couple of years ago and ended up a disaster. I never got a chance
>to see it (I think it lasted only a week in Boston), but
>considering the reviews it got, I'm not sure that I wasn't
>fortunate.
>                --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

Yes, I would be willing to bet my reputation (such as it is) on it
being Rock and Rule in a different package.  Rock and Rule was
probably a silly name, anyway.  Well, one of the advantages of MIT
(enter brag mode) is that our Lecture Series Committee does a good
job of getting us sneak previews (we've gotten things like "Missing"
and "Police Academy") when they are available, and we got to see
this flick.  It wasn't bad, it just wasn't great.  The people who
made it were there and had a little discussion after the flick,
asking us what we thought about it and telling us a little about
what was behind it.  I would consider the animation to be pretty
reasonable, and parts of the story are good.  The bad things about
it: the ending is kinda hokey (like Star Wars, etc.), and the
characters are made unnecessarily cute.  I was also rooting for the
bad guy.  Estimated entertainment equivalence (EEE): $1.75.  I was
very happy to see it for free.  -- Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path=
genrad!mit-eddie!rh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #125
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 84 1209-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #125
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:

               ****** SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 21:09:20-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: mild spoiler ST III/IV - (nf)

Yesterday Harve Bennett, writer and producer of STIII, was
interviewed on the radio here in LA.  He strongly hinted that there
would be a new Enterprise (NCC-1701 was hardly the first, after
all!).  Since he pointed out that none of the Enterprise folks liked
anything about the Excelsior (sp? my dictionary defines this as
"wood shavings"!), I don't expect the new Enterprise to look like
*that*.  But I hope they don't end up with something that looks
*too* much like the old one.

Paul Perkins
...{uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!paul
...decvax!yale-co!ima!ism780!paul
"Wir leben immer noch."

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 84 12:08:00-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: [Spoiler, by the way] Re: Early Revi

Saavik could, indeed, mind-meld with Spock.  She is half-Vulcan
(just as he is!), and half-Romulan.  If Spock can mind-meld with
mere *humans*, he can certainly meld with a fellow halfling...

It IS an interesting question, though.  In "Amok Time", Spock was
able to avoid mating by killing Kirk (or so he thought), which
nullified his mating urge.  How was the urge quelled in STIII, if
not by Saavik?  Did the Pon Farr period pass so quickly that poor
adolescent Spock never knew what hit him?

Gary Fritz
Hewlett-Packard
Ft Collins, CO
ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 1984 06:30:31 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
Subject: ST3 and green Spock

I seem to recall from Whitfield's "The Making of Star Trek" (TV
series), that in the early episodes Spock WAS tinted a bit green.
Even if not, maybe Vulcans have a pink coloration over their
greenish blood, as we have black, brown, yellow, and pure-white
albinos, even though we're all red-blooded below.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Jun 84 00:53 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek III -- Film vs. Novelization

As a general rule, I don't like novelizations of original
screenplays.  I can't see shelling out three bucks for a hack
writer's conversion of the movie into a scene by scene retelling,
with a little background added to make the reader feel the money
isn't totally wasted.  As an example of what I mean, I cite the
novelization of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which was done (in) by
Donald Glut.  I cannot recall anything that was enhanced in that
novel, but I can recall several times where Glut's interpretation
was in direct conflict with the scene in the movie, even though the
dialogue remained the same.

Vonda McIntyre, on the other hand, has taken the second and third
Star Trek movies, and made them even more real.  Without the benefit
of special effects or film sets, she has expanded on the movie,
fleshing out the plot and the characters, making them far more real
than either movie was able to accomplish.  Which is as it should be;
as movie adaptations of extant novels tend to cut out scenes and
details in order to get the movie down to a manageable size, so
should a novelization add in details of character and plot to make
up for the lost visual components.

McIntyre's novelization of THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK succeeds in this,
but it also succeeds in two additional levels.  First, it succeeds
as a sequel to the second movie better than the third movie does,
for it finishes the story of Carol Marcus, details better the
initial return from the Genesis planet, and also gives better
background on the Enterprise crew members while on Earth.  Second,
it succeeds in its own right as a sequel to the second movie
novelization, though it does, admittedly, suffer from the fact that
it is a sequel, and not an independent novel.

For those who have read McIntyre's original ST novel, THE ENTROPY
EFFECT, there is the extra bonus of seeing how she has used the
events of the novel as background throwaways in both her
novelizations, neatly integrating it into the official ST milieu.
(Those who haven't read the novel should do so, it is one of the top
three or four ST novels; I also highly recommend THE WOUNDED SKY by
Diane Duane -- Ms. Duane has another ST novel coming out in a week
or two.)  I don't know why McIntyre isn't working on original novels
instead of novelizations -- she won the Hugo award for DREAMSNAKE --
but we're lucky she has such an affinity for ST.  It's amazing how
one can read her movie novelizations and picture the scenes she's
describing -- although not in the movies -- and have them play out
in our minds.  Who said movie novelizations were all bad?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jun 84 20:47 CDT
From: Jerry Bakin <Bakin@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Vulcan Hematology and Human Cosmetology

Look at the early Star Trek episodes.  Spock IS tinted green.  (Was
that my tv set?  Space legs in an Ion Storm?  Copper based blood?)

                              Also,

        I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary
        recently, but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing
        material as the second definition?

Nope! It is the only definition given.

        Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page
        by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were
        equivalent?  O tempora, O mores.  (O the tempura, O the
        morels) O DI immortales!

Actually, in my edition (1974), they take great pains to make sure
one understands the two words are "carefully distinguished in modern
usage.... not interchangeable."

However it is a cruddy dictionary, I have been looking for any
dictionary where I can find the definition of "perjorative" (sic?)
or instantiate.  Anyone got one?  Can't wait to get my Oxford
English Dictionary on a chip.

Jerry.

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek -- spoiler section...
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 84 00:04 EDT

A few things as they occur to me...  I saw ST3 2 or 3 weeks ago, in
the same week with IJ:ToD.  One for $2.50, the other for $3.50.  I
hope ST3 was the $3.50 one, as that's about what each was worth.

I was somewhat dissapointed in the ending -- it was far too
audience-satisfying to make me feel that "something significant has
happened".  But who expects art out of $$-desires?  Besides, it left
everything far too closed.  *My* ending: Spock still a vegetable (if
you *insist* on reviving him), perhaps a glimmer of recognition when
he last sees Kirk - a flicker of an eyebrow raise, nothing more,
then back to the veggie patch.  This leaves "hope", but no firm
commitment to Spockkies...  Kirk and all the rest being led off in
chains: grand larceny, piracy, high treason, sabotage, kidnapping
(remember Uhuru's youngster?), disobeying orders, entering a
quarrantined zone, inciting war with the Klingon empire,
grave-robbing, not locking Starbase doors behind them...  They
should get 40 years in the Spice Mines of Kessel for sure.

A side question: in the ST episode "Attack of the Giant Amoeba", I
remember a Vulcan-manned cruiser being swallowed by the amoeba.  Why
didn't anyone scream because those 400+ *purebred* vulcans (much
better than the mongrel in question) didn't get "the final sysdump"?

{I have more, but it is best sent to a general comment mailing.}

-steve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 20:45:32-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!intelca!t4test!chip @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #118 (Star Trek flight
Subject: recorders)

>From:  Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>I think the comment about "The Menagerie" episode (detailed film
>records aren't kept) was made because Spock's footage included
>scenes in the Captain's bedroom, etc.  Personally, I like the
>flight recorder idea, although wasn't there an episode where the
>record was tampered with?

Yes.  I don't remember the title, maybe "Courtmartial".

In this Kirk was being courtmartialed for making an improper
decision which killed one of his crew.  This crewman was in a pod
taking readings of an ion storm.  Kirk had to jetison the pod.  The
flight recorder showed him doing this during a yellow alert rather
than during an emergency (i.e. red alert).

Turns out that this guy harbored a grudge against Kirk.  Long ago
Kirk put him on report for leaving a something-or-other switch open
while on guard duty, nearly destroying their vessel.  The guy blamed
Kirk for never being promoted to captain.  This grudge drove him to
insanity.

What actually happened was that he wasn't in the jetissoned pod at
all, but rather hid on the Enterprise and later doctored the flight
recorder transcript so to show that Kirk jettisoned the pod during
yellow alert rather than the red alert.  Spock found out that the
computers had been tampered with by beating his own program at
chess, where he should have only been able to get at best a draw.

So, to those of you think that Kirk can't be courtmartialed for
stealing the Enterprise, "phooey!"

Chip Rosenthal, Intel/Santa Clara
{idi|intelca|icalqa|imcgpe|kremvax|qubix|ucscc}!t4test!{chip|news}

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 84 15:10:00-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: ST III question (spoiler)

No, it was definitely in the original release of ST II.  I remember
at the time wondering what in the world was supposed to be
happening.

Gary Fritz
Hewlett Packard
Ft Collins, CO
ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 20:37:34 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: ST3, answers to commetns, possible spoiler?

     The flight recorder that was tampered with was a shuttle flight
recorder in the episode "Courtmartial". I dont remember any
tampering with the recorders of the Enterprise itself.

     As I remember in "Amok Time", Spock was on the order of 50+
years old.  He had not yet had his first pon farr, and states during
the scene where he is telling Kirk about Vulcan Birds and Bees that
he had hoped to be spared the shame. Since the Young Vulcan was
genetically Spock, a hybrid, I can't see why the silly pon farr
happened so early in the first place. Saavik and he did not
necessarily have to do anything, since in "Amok Time" he came out of
it after fighting Kirk, when he should have died. All in all, a
poorly done section of the movie.

    I think the major weakness of the movie was all the bits of the
plot/story that were left on the cutting room floor. I can see the
gaping holes designed to make you buy the book so you can know what
is *really* going on. They did this in ST2 also, where a major scene
was cut out....Kirk finding out that Saavik was "learning by doing"
with David. Without that piece of information, it is very
questionable why Saavik would have taken a relative downgrade from
Command Captain Trainee to Scientific Researcher. I didnt think
Romulans were *that* loyal, and having not been raised Romulan, she
wouldn't have been exposed to those standards of loyalty anyway, but
to Vulcan.

     The Vulcan Temple Maidens were for more than show...didn't
anyone else notice that they seemed to be lending power to
T'Whatsername as she was re-recording Spock into his own head?

Live Long and Prosper
(or as Klingons would put it)
Die Young and be Sterile
Yay Trekkies!
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 84 0:01:20-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!ihlpf!ARPA @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: "Re: STIII:  The Search... - (nf)"

your letter, like many more i've seen on the topic of 'goofs of
ST-III' looks like all the others. in a nutshell:

        the people who made ST-III goof up.  they call a romulan
        ship a kilingon ship.  the klingons look different.  five
        people run a ship that normally requires MANY more. etc.
        etc.

        people come on the net and say 'look, a goof up.'

        then other people come on the net and pull stuff out of
        their ass to show us how/why it could have happened.  you
        said yourself it looked like (from an old script) they
        simply changed from romulans to klingons.  but no!  what if
        (now insert an incredible line from some obscure star-trek
        book no one's ever read) happened!!  do you REALLY believe
        the writers of the movie said 'but in the role playing game
        the klingons......'????????  heck no!  they just throw out
        anything that comes to mind, 'cause they know it will sell.
        the klingons looked different (to me, anyway) because the
        people making the movie simply didn't care!!!

why can't people accept the fact there's hardly a movie made that
isn't full of holes?  the reason i didn't like ST-III that much is
because it had SO many holes.  i couldn't sit there and say to
myself 'why that must be a klingon from the lower south bronx 18th
mutant strain , that's why they look different'.  i simply said
'god, what's that plastic crap on their forheads???'

quit defending the movie with wild-ass speculation!  in some spots
they blew it and obviously didn't fool everyone!!!!  maybe THAT'S
why so many people walked away saying ST-II was so much better...

        ron     replies to:  ihdev!rjv

whooops!  almost fell off my soap-box B-)

ps: yes, i made a lot of exaggerations there, but do you get my
point?  in a sci-fi setting, yes, you can make damn near anything
happen.  but there's a point where you're making things up just to
be making them up.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 8:17:00-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!dwhitney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SPOCK'S BLOOD - (nf)

In "The Making of Star Trek," it is pointed out that makeup coloring
WAS, in fact used to give Mr. Spock the appearance of a green hue to
his skin, but because the color mixing of the film when processed
was so poor that you couldn't tell it.  This is also true for the
color of Kirk's command shirt; how many folks out there know that
his command shirt is really GREEN, not GOLD as it typically appears
on most color sets.  Also, in the first pilot, "the Cage" the green
Orion slave woman went through an interesting process; when they had
an actress come in to the studio for color and film testing of the
green makeup, after each day's test footage was submitted to the
processing department, it would come back the next day and the girl
in the footage, which had been made up green, came out completely
normal-color.  For about a week, this happened, made up green, the
footage came out looking normal.  The reason for this was the man in
the labs doing the processing didn't know she was SUPPOSED to be
green, and therefore didn't know what to do with a green
girl...(there's a joke there, but I'll overlook it..) Anyway, the
lab just kept washing out the green to make her look normal. Once
the production staff and the make up department got their signals
uncrossed, it worked out fine....  David Whitney
!ctvax!uokvax!uok!dwhitney

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #126
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jun 84 1302-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #126
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:
           Books - Gibson & Peake & Solmonsen (2 msgs) &
                   Pronunciation in SF,
           Films - Star Wars (5 msgs),
           Television - Dr. Who ( 2 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich & WorldCon & 
                   "Excelsior" (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1984 1214-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "Neuromancer" by William Gibson

I too thought that "Neuromancer" had great atmosphere and style.  It
was a nice portrayal of a bleak, Japanese-dominated world full of
casually used cybernetics.  My problem with the book was that I had
no sympathy for any of the characters.  The male protagonist, Case,
was a weak and selfish whiner.  For someone who was supposed to be
an ace system cracker, he didn't seem to be very bright; I wouldn't
trust him to program his way out of a begin-end block.  The female
protagonist, Molly, was a psychopathic killer. She has razor blade
claws surgically implanted in her fingers, and makes liberal use of
them through the story.

Why should we care about these people?  Gibson gives us no reason to
do so.  If Case was knocked off by a fellow computer cowboy and
Molly by another ninja, the world would be a better place.  They do
not grow through the story, nor does their conflict with the
space-baron family of Tessier-Ashpool resolve anything.

Now, lots of stories have cowards and villains as main characters.
Usually, though, something in the story depends on their cowardice
or villainy.  Gibson doesn't seem to notice these elementary moral
faults in his characters, and I find that deeply disturbing.  I've
noticed the same thing in a number of works, and it bothers me more
and more.  Indiana Jones in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" is a murderous
maniac, and people say "Oh, how exciting".  Dickson, Pournelle, and
Drake write series of novels about mercenaries, men who make war for
money.  John Norman has written over a dozen books about Tarl Cabot,
a guy who would be serving a several hundred year sentence for sex
crimes if he were on Earth.  People can read and write this sort of
stuff if they want, of course.  I just wish there wasn't so much
money in it.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 84 7:28:45-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!unmvax!moret @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Mervyn Peake

   I highly recommend the Penguin edition--and not just for the
reasons discussed by Jim Janney.  Each book in the trilogy is also a
substantial work, and it pays to have a quality paperback, that
won't disintegrate from repeated readings.
   To my mind, the best volume is the first (Titus Groan); it
includes absolutely fantastic descriptions of the fortress
(Gormenghast), with an atmosphere unequalled in fiction anywhere and
some very humorous passages about education.  The main
characteristic is the style: the author's prose is *very*
sophisticated, although sometimes a bit heavy or germanic.  I found
myself re-reading the same few pages several times over, just to
savor the richness of the prose.
   The second volume is less polished; the style is less consistent
and the atmosphere somewhat lacking.  Towards the end of the second
volume, the author starts on a wholesale campaign of (literally)
character assassination which continues in the third volume.  The
third volume is definitely hasty, as would be expected given the
circumstances under which it finally appeared.  As to whether this
is SF...  There is no futuristic or historical pretense, nor is it
close to fantasy; it is just good (speculative?) fiction.

Bernard M.E. Moret   (505) 277-31{31,12}
Dept. of Computer Science, U. of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM 87131

{convex,ucbvax,gatech,aml-cs,csu-cs,anl-mcs}!unmvax!moret
{pur-ee!purdue,ucbvax!lbl-csam,philabs!cmcl2}!lanl-a!unm-cvax!moret

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT
From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: responses to a variety of msgs.

Re: "Oh, if you've been turned off by Jessica Salmonson's other 
writings, it might still be worth looking at Tomoe Gozen.  If you 
haven't read any of her other writings, don't worry about it."

What is it that turns you off about Jessica Salmonson's other 
writings?  I haven't read that much of her, but I didn't find anything
bad about any of it.

Marty

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 25 Jun 1984 10:10:05-PDT
From: feldman%awesum.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Geoff Feldman at Trilogy
From: 544-3410)
Subject: Jessica Amanda Salmonsen

I have enjoyed her books very much, but heard some strange things
about her.  Since I dont know if they are true, I dont want to state
them here.  I am an instructor in a Korean form of Kendo and like
her books not just because they are entertaining and well written,
but because the sword scenes are not baloney as in so much other
"Sword and Sorcery".

There is another book by an author whose name I forget which has a
Japanese Kendo component as well as Zen.  The basic plot is that a
planet is colonized only to find out too late that it is populated
with a form of Brain parasite.  The very clever expedition commander
(and part time Zen master) forms the culture around Zen precepts.
Only by keeping the mind clear thru Zen meditation Can the colonists
keep there minds from being overcome.  Does this ring any bells??

                                        ---Geoff

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 14:13:43-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jkb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: SF Pronunciation

     I was having a discussion about the upcoming Dune movie with my
friend on the way to work this morning, and the conversation got
around to the pronunciation of people, places, and things in general
in the world of sci-fi.  She was saying that when she reads an
"unpronouncable" word, she stops trying to pronounce it altogether
because a) she doesn't want to go to the trouble every time of
trying to remember how she said it the last time or, b) doesn't want
to mis-pronounce (read: pronounce it differently than the author
intended here) the word.
     I saw an interview with a relatively well-known sci-fi author
(Asimov or Bradbury or ?) sometime back, and on the same subject he
said that he didn't care how people pronounced the words in his
books.  If he was concerned about how they were pronounced, he would
include a glossary/dictionary with pronunciations in the back of the
book.
     I'm curious as to how y'all out there feel about and deal with
this problem.
                                  Yours until the gophers come home,
                                        jb

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 84 9:45:11-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!f
From: luke!ron @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: More Continuity errors in ROTJ (trivia question)

Can anyone identify a peculiar discontinuity or inconsistency in
ROTJ?  The problem starts when we see R2 and C3PO for the first time
in this episode, as they are trucking down the sandy road to Jabba's
towers.

There's another minor discontinuity in the scene where Luke, et al
are trying to get thru the security shield to land on Endor.  As the
shuttle Tyderium flies in front of the bridge tower on the command
ship and the film cuts to scenes inside and outside the shuttle
craft, at least two pieces of film are sequenced backwards.  (i.e.
the shuttle flies completely past an object, then in the next take
the shuttle is not even half way across an object...)  No big deal
though; it's still a fantastic piece of cinematography.

  -Ron

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Jun 1984 10:51:06-PDT
From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Answer to Kenn Barry's question

The error in the scene from Star Wars that you described is this:  
while the conversation is taking place on the bridge, they are 
travelling in hyperspace.  The view out the window is motionless.  
Perhaps they did not have enough of the hyperspace effect to strip 
into that scene, or they thought that it would be too distracting.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 22:50:00-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the

How do you think an experienced smuggler like Hans would try to
skake off a tail? You make a series of small (30 secs) jumps so that
even if they duplicated your first one they could not follow you
beyond the next solar system. They probably did a short jump to the
next star system to get out of immediate danger and then plotted a
safe course to the rebel base.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 15:01:41-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!jeh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the ANSWER

Are you sure other scenes showed an abnormal (or no) star field
while in hyperspace?

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Jun 1984 10:51:06-PDT
From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Answer to Kenn Barry's question

"Gelly babies" are the british name for gelly beans.  Some of you may
remember that one of the Beatles made the mistake of saying that he
liked gelly babies.  From then on, they were pelted with them at 
concerts.  How times have changed.  Reagan likes them, but gets pelted
with criticism instead.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jun 84 01:20 EDT
From: Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who memorabilia

I've heard of Dr.  Who video games and scarves for sale in England.
I believe this digest reaches several British sites.  I'm curious
about what other Dr.  Who items are available.

          Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sat 23 Jun 84 09:56:27-EDT
From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: How to get rich with a time machine

I'm surprised no one has though about this before. What about
aluminum? Up until fairly recently (a hundred years or so ago)
before the bauxite refining process was known, aluminum was
literally worth its weight in gold (they put an aluminum pyramid at
the top of the Washington Monument). So, all you have to to is
gather up a few thousand empty beer and soda cans, melt them down,
and bring them back a hundred years or so where you can easily find
someone who would give you gold for them. To improve your profits,
bring the gold back to a few years ago when it was at $1000 an ounce
and sell it there. Result: a few bucks worth of empty cans (worth
about $.01/ounce today, I think) makes you an easy fortune.

        --Vince

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 84 10:41:01-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!guest @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Wanted: roomates at World Science Fiction Convention

    ******************************************
    *          N E W S F L A S H             *
    ******************************************

I'm looking for a few good people.

The World Science Fiction Convention, also known as LA Con II, is
coming up at the end of August.

Therefore, I am trying to get a group of people together to share a
room or suite; if you can put up with someone who is generally on
the left-hand side of reality and yet tries to avoid virgin
sacrifices, please contact me through one of the access methods
below:

  Mike Sorens               Home phone:   408-446-1260
  10200 Miller Ave. #412    Office phone: 408-257-7000 X3877
  Cupertino, CA 95014       HP Telnet:    157-3877
                            Net:          ...!hplabs!hpda!ms

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jun 84 12:50:12 PDT
From: Rich Wales <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: "infer", "imply", and American Heritage Dictionary

Regarding Suford Lewis's comment in V9 #121:

        Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page
        by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were
        equivalent?

Probably not.

The 1976 edition of the American Heritage Dictionary clearly distin-
guishes between "infer" (to draw a conclusion) and "imply" (to hint
or suggest).  The use of "infer" where "imply" is meant was rejected
by 92% of the membership of the AHD's Usage Panel.

-- Rich <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Jun 84 00:22 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek -- more on Excelsior (plus Nero Wolfe)

Suford Lewis asked:

< Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page by
< page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were equivalent?

No, Nero Wolfe consigned the Webster's New International Dictionary,
Third Edition to the fires one page at a time due to that claim and
other solecisms, retaining his copy of the Second Edition (which,
incidentally, is copyright 1934).  I'm afraid I don't have the name
of the novel in which that memorable scene appeared.

< I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary recently,
< but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing material as the second
< definition?

The abovementioned Webster's Second Edition gives the primary
definition of excelsior (the noun) as "A material of curled shreds
of wood used for stuffing upholstered furniture, for packing, etc."
(Obviously before the advent of foam rubber and styrofoam.)  The
secondary definition has to do with print: "A small size of type (3
points), seldom used."

The definition of excelsior (the adjective) is "More lofty; still
higher; ever upward; -- used as a motto, and [cap.] as the title of
a poem (1841) by Longfellow.

I thought, while I had the dictionary out, it wouldn't hurt to see
what it said about enterprise: "An attempt or project, esp. one
which involves activity, courage, energy, or the like; a bold,
arduous, or hazardous attempt; an important undertaking; as, a
warlike enterprise." (noun) The verb forms were all considered
either archaic or obsolete, but had similar meanings.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 84 22:50:57 PDT (Wed)
Subject: STIII: Excelsior
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

   There seems to be a dearth of good dictionaries on the net.
"Excelsior" is Latin, meaning "higher".  The Oxford at least will
give you exactly the derivation.  I hardly think New York calls
itself the Excelsior State because of its overwhelming lumber
industry.

   Besides, if you research naval history, I think you'll find at
least one or two notable ships named Excelsior, just as you'll find
Exeter and Enterprise.  Furthermore, didn't the episode called The
Ultimate Computer have a sister ship of the Enterprise called
Excelsior, in the war games?  Couldn't swear to it -- I don't
remember it that clearly -- but I thought it did.

                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 08:46:49 EDT
From: MG9G@CMCCTF
Subject: The Excelsior

        "Excelsior" meaning "wood shavings"??  Hasn't anyone out
there heard the old carol "Angels We Have Heard on High"?  You know,
"Gloria in Excelsis Deo"?
                                                Deej
                                                (mg9g@cmu-cc-tf)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Jun  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #127
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jun 84 1340-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #127
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jun 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:
        Books - The Man Who Ruled the World (2 msgs),
        Films - Ghostbusters (3 msgs) & Indiana Jones &
                The Day the Earth Stood Still (3 msgs) & 
                Gremlins (2 msgs) & The Last Starfighter (2 msgs) & 
                Movies in General (3 msgs) & Movie Gossip &
                "Rock and Rule" (2 msgs) & Sigourney Weaver &
                Star Trek III (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 09:33:38 PDT (Thu)
From: Mike Brzustowicz <mab@aids-unix>
Subject: The Man Who Rules the world from his Wristwatch

I remember reading a short story like that in F&SF, which I believe
was made into a novel.  The short story I'm thinking of is
"Michaelmas", I don't remember the author.  Additional information:
the protagonist was an MIT graduate who had started with phone
hacking.  When the phone system got computerized, he made a more
complex system.  Eventually, his program became sentient.  (I
believe it was called Domenick and the man's name was Michaelmas
(last name)). Had a run in with creatures that could redirect
electrons or something.  Anyway, it was a good story, and I want a
pointer to the novel, if any.

-Mike
<mab@aids-unix>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 10:13:20 PDT (Thu)
To: leslie%perch.DEC@Decwrl
Subject: Re: The Man who Ruled the World
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

You might be thinking of Michaelmas by Algis Budrys.  I hope not; it
wasn't very good.  Michaelmas was a news reporter who used an
intelligent computer called Domino (disguised as a tape recorder) to
link into and control the world's computer network.  The plot was
something unbelievable about aliens discovering Earth, and
Michaelmas trying to drive them off without letting Earth know of
the danger.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 21:47:43-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!genrad!wjh12!harvard!brownell @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS

I loved it too.  Funniest horror movie I've seen in years!!  My
favorite part was the the large apparition at the very end ...
reminds me of telling ghost stories around the campfire.

By all means, SEE THIS MOVIE !!!!

Dave Brownell
{allegra,floyd,ihnp4,seismo}!harvard!brownell

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 17:45:00-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS - (nf)

        Ok, now that that is taken care of, I got the impression
        that the Ghostbusters [spoiler deleted] didn't enjoy having
        ghosts boxed up in a toaster.  Or is it just me??

                Ben Walls
                ...cbosgd!bsw

Definitely you. Sigurney Weaver's problems started before the
Ghostbusters ever had a paying job.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT
From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: responses to a variety of msgs.

I thought Ghostbusters, although funny, was NOT a great movie.  It was
too superficial to deserve that title.  As superficial comedy trash,
though, it was wonderful.

Marty

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT
From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: responses to a variety of msgs.

I am beginning to wonder about Spielberg.  Sometimes the guy gets 
carried away with things; witness the butcher job he did on Indiana 
Jones in the Temple of Doom.  Every scene a climax, no sense of 
character, no sense of timing or flow of the plot/intensity.  About 
the only scene I liked was the sequence with Indy in his room and 
dumb-blonde in hers, looking in their respective mirrors and testing 
their respective mouths for bad breath.  There were a lot of pretty 
pictures, but not much else.

Marty

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 84 9:46:09-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!stolaf!neiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: RE: The Day the Earth Stood Still

In "The Day the Earth Stood Still", Klaatu tells us that Gort and
others of his type react automatically against aggression.  We know
that if Klaatu is killed, that Gort is likely to do something nasty.

I think the message that Klaatu gave the human to tell Gort "Klaatu
borada nikto" meant the only thing that would have stopped Gort, and
I think Monty Python intuitively understood this in their film "...
and the Holy Grail".

Obviously, it means "I'm not dead yet..."

question 1: What was the human's name?  What is the name of the
            child?
question 2: What is the authoritative spelling of "Klaatu borada
            nikto"?

Dave Neiman [ihnp4 decvax]!stolaf!neiman
===>Carleton College by dialup
    not yet on the net (net nyet?)

"Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?"

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 84 13:48:00-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: RE: The Day the Earth Stood Still

I was listening to the radio the other day when they were talking
about how hollywood was really into remakes this year. Amoung the
list of remakes either released or in the works was "The day the
Earth stood still". Has anyone else heard about this?

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 11:52:11-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!judy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Klaatu

GNUT??? Gee, I always thought his name was Gort! At least, that was
his name in the movie.

"Turned me into a gnut! ...
I got better."

Judy
(By the way, Klaatu is also the name taken by a musical group who
was at on point suspected of being the Beatles back together again.
Remember? Well, it WAS a long time ago...)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 84 11:57:53-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!allegra!jdd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: GREMLINS (GREAT. (SPOILERS))

Good morning, campers!  I keep reading reviews, pro and con, of
Spielberg's new movie, "Gremlins".  Perhaps someone who has seen
Spielberg's version can compare it with Dante's version, now playing
here on Earth-Prime, and tell us which is better?

Cheers,
John ("Master of the Low-Key Insult") DeTreville
Bell Labs, Murray Hill

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 84 8:54:00-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!acf4!sullivan @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: GREMLINS (GREAT. (SPOILERS))

Even better, let's all ignore Chris Columbus, who wrote the story in
the first place, and did a good bit of the design of how things
should look.  I'm always amazed when his name isn't even mentioned.

I feel obligated to stick up for Chris, because I spent 2 years in
the NYU dorms living next to him.

David Sullivan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 84 11:25:48 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: The Last Starfighter (non spoiler)

Just finished the book and I must truly pray the movie is better.
The book is in the usual ( or to me what seems usual mode of good sf
movie tie ins) mode of draw out the backround and leave the good
stuff for two minutes at the end.

One thing I noticed about the physical book.  On the spine where the
publishers logo often goes it was marked "MOVIE TIE-IN".

Waiting for the hype machine to run out of steam (July 15??)
alex

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 11:58:52-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: The Last Starfighter (book)

I devoured Alan Dean Fosters version of The Last Starfighter last
weekend.  This is his adaption from the screen play (like he did for
Alien) so I expect that the movie will probably hold pretty close to
the book.  I can't wait for the movie!  It sounds like the video
arcade addict's (myself included) dream come true.  There should be
lots of opportunities for the Cray computer's special effects.  It
sounds like there also should be interesting humor, the hero
mentions something about "THE FORCE" right before battle and his
copilots response is very good!  I don't want this to be a spoiler
so I'll stop now, but again, I can't wait for the movie!!

                                Rick Schieve

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Movies in general
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 84 00:05 EDT

  And while we're on the topic, what of "Star Trek IV: The Search
for Consistency"?  Is it really worth it, or should Paramount et.
al. just call it quits while the going's good?
  It seems the era of the high-budget 'fex films may be reaching an
end.  In the beginning, there was Star Wars (IV).  Moderate budget,
made a mint.  It was one-of-a-kind, a new /art/-form.
Flash-trash-fairytale.  We all saw it over and over, and the studio
made itself.  As time went on, we saw more and more, and it begins
to wear thin.  Or out.  Yes, I will go to a film just to watch the
effects.  Part of it is job-related.  But there is really very
little new in the films.  I don't think people are going to see
these films 40 or 50 times.  Can the /flash/ industry hold out for
another few years, will they be able to make a profit (outside of
non-incidentals: toys and chewing gum) on multi-megabuck films with
a lessening (repeat) attendance?  Or will these films turn into a
sales weapons for the toys they support (talk about a self-defining
industry!)?
  Indiana Jones is a one-joke horse.  IJ:RotLA was fun because it
was fast, amusing, and we could identify with the territory (Egypt,
the Lost Ark, etc.).  IJ:ToD was a weaker film: IJ's joke was gone,
the background was unfamiliar, so Lucaspielberg etc. substituted
more and more action.  Slimy grossness is in this year (Saturday the
14'th: The Sequel, coming to a theater near you), so it was made
present in ample quantity.
  ST2 and ST3, as well as SW4 and SW5, at least made some attempt to
develop characters.  IJ:ToD couldn't -- the series can go no
further.
  SW had a story to tell and told it.  It took three episodes, some
were better than others, it sapped out at the end, but it was a
complete story, a good fable.
  ST3 reached an end.  I hope.  "The adventure continues".  Pah.

-steve       platt.upenn@csnet-relay
             or something like that.

p.s. speaking of continuing characters, will Basil ever return?
     will Brenda ever stop crying?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 84 6:11:13-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movies in general

>>p.s. speaking of continuing characters, will Basil ever return?
>>will Brenda ever stop crying?

I sure hope so....I miss the black eyepatch.....8-) 8-)

                   Or is she to be seduced by the Frenchman?
                                -The Parker Hobbit
                                 a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri

UUCP:         {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit
              decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit
ARPA & CSNET: hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 10:42:27-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Holes in movies

I agree with ihdev!rjv (Ron) about why movies are so full of holes
-- the people who could plug them just don't care, they know the
product will sell anyway.

So, instead of spending our time here discussing, flaming about, and
trying to rationalize away the holes in various movies, why don't we
spend our time reading and discussing some bood BOOKS?  At least, in
most books, if there is a hole, there is a single person to blame,
and you might even be able to get an answer to questions about what
alternatives he considered.

                -- David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: {...decvax,ihnp4,qubix,shasta,ucbvax...}!decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb
ARPA: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@{SU-Shasta,Berkeley}

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Jun 84 13:59:00-EDT
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Movie gossip

A local movie critic claims that Daryl Hannah (sp?) (the "Splash"
mermaid) is going to play Ayla the Cro-Magnon cavewoman in a
forthcoming production of "Clan of the Cave Bear".  Sounds a bit
strange to me, since in the book Ayla ages from about five to maybe
fourteen, but then again she does end up taller than all the
Neanderthals.  Anyhow, the book is bad enough that it might make a
good movie....

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 28 Jun 84 8:55:53 EDT
Subject: Rock and Rule

RE ROCK AND RULE...

If you think that's a dumb title, consider the working title, which
was DRATS!  I sat in on a little schtick by Melvana (the Canadian
animation shop which did Rock and Rule, Animalympics, etc.) at
Iguanacon and have been watching for DRATS out of the corner of my
eye ever since.  Best I did was a Marvel comic book made of
fuzzily-screened cells out of the movie.  Looked visually skillful
and unutterably stupid.  On the other hand, if somebody played it at
a con I'd go--if that sounds like a suggestion, well, concoms, it
is.

Sigourney/Scirocco wrapup--looks like the ayes have it.  So Scirocco
had a broken nose--I don't recall any plot point turning on the
brokenness of her nose.  Or her looks generally; if a director
wanted a pretty Scirocco I wouldn't kick too much.  Sigourney Weaver
has the look of high intelligence about her, which is a condition on
which EVERYTHING turns in Titan/Wizard/Demon.

A much tougher directorial challenge would be getting a horde of
topless, full-breasted Titanides past the film censors.  American
nipplephobia is nothing short of astounding.

By the way, I thought that robot painting on the Queen cover was
from I,Robot by Asimov...somebody check, huh?  I don't have the
album, nor the mag from which it came.

--Jeff Duntemann
Something may cycle about Rochester; God knows what; maybe
vultures...

duntemann.wbst@xerox.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1984 1216-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: "Ring of Power" aka "Rock and Rule"

It sounds like "Rock and Rule" is being re-released as "Ring of
Power" at the LA Filmex.  Good, I liked it a lot when I saw it in
Boston a while ago. Sure it had a hokey ending, but there were some
great touches in it. Eg, the aging rock superstar (named "Mock", who
could they be referring to?) has a mansion that metamorhposizes into
a jet-propelled zeppelin after he kidnaps the heroine.  Try doing
that with models, Lucasfilm!  It was only showing in the smallest
theaters, though, and it closed after a week.  "Something Wicked
This Way Comes" also closed after a week, and I also liked it.  For
a while there I was worried that I was poisoning all these great
movies.

/jlr
US mail, Arpanet, EngNet: who cares?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jun 84 15:49:05 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Cirocco Jones

It's "Cirocco."  No "S", that's the Volkswagen, and no double R.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 24 Jun 1984 10:12:01-PDT
From: insinga%elsie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Aron K. Insinga)
Subject: StarTrek[3]

The ST series and (it is now clear) movies are too melodramatic.
The universe is steady-state: important characters don't change,
only temporaries who are passing through.  Indiana Jones probably
won't change either, but I think that in the adventure/comedy
setting "How are you going to get out of this outrageous situation?"
works much better (for 2 movies, at least) since there is less
pretense about it.

                                        - Aron Insinga

UUCP:   {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga
ARPA:   decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga@SU-Shasta
USPS:   77 Reed Road, HL2-2/H13, Hudson, MA 01749
Phone:  (617) 568-4321

------------------------------

Date: 06/28/84 10:07:55 EDT ( THURSDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: ST III-Spock and Pon Farr

The reason Spock had never undergone Pon Farr before Amok Time was
that he had been "linked" to what's her name, thus postponing the
event until a pre-set time.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #128
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jul 84 1259-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #128
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:
         Books - Clement & Salmonsen & Valentina's Sequel &
                 The Man Who Ruled the World & Constructed Worlds &
                 Farewell to the Master,
         Films - Ghostbusters & Filmex & Holes in Movies,
         Miscellaneous - Excelsior (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jun 84 12:41:49 PDT
From: Rich Wales <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Inventory of SF works by Hal Clement

I have listed below all the SF works by Hal Clement (AKA Harry
Clement Stubbs) of which I am aware.  I have read them all, by the
way.
            NOVELS
                Close to Critical
                Cycle of Fire
                Iceworld
                Mission of Gravity
                Needle
                The Nitrogen Fix
                Star Light
                Through the Eye of a Needle

            SHORT STORIES
                Answer
                Assumption Unjustified
                Bulge
                Dust Rag
                Fireproof
                Halo
                Impediment
                Mistaken for Granted
                Question of Guilt
                Raindrop
                Stuck With It
                Sun Spot
                Technical Error
                The Foundling Stars
                The Mechanic
                Trojan Fall
                Uncommon Sense

Does anyone know for sure whether this list is complete -- and if
not, what am I missing, and where might I find it?

Also, does anyone know whether Clement plans to write any more SF?
(He is still alive, isn't he?)

-- Rich <wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 29 Jun 84 16:22:09 EDT
Subject: JASalmonsen

I think the warnings on Jessica Amanda Salmonsen apply to her
well-known radicfem leanings.  The lady is a good writer, certainly
better than MZB, but her writing makes me uncomfortable.  Not so
much for what it says but for the underlying distrust of all things
male.  And yes, there is a profound irony in that--but let's not get
in the habit of turning writers inside out in a public forum.

I've not sampled the Tomoe Gozen (sp?) books yet, but people I trust
say they are gripping and accurate.

Somewhere I have a stack of fanzines dating back to 1977 or 1978,
entitled "The Witch and the Chameleon" which contain a long-running
and lively debate on women in SF.  Sheds a lot of light on who is a
sensitive critic of the sexual balance and who just hates men--and
somewhere in the mess are some excellent insights on the growth of
the field.  If you can find this series, I say read it -- you'll
learn something.

--Jeff Duntemann    duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 84 22:46:35-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Valentina Revisited (calm, later spoiler)

As someone who was very vocal in his opinions concerning the
original `Valentina' short story in *Analog* in May (?), I feel I
should post my response to `The Crystal Ball' in the August issue.

Better, but still needs improvement.

                 >>>>  Beginning mild spoiler <<<<

What I feel is the most glaring deficiency in the novella is the
fact that all of the characters still seem one-dimensional.  Exactly
one character, Steve Schiwetz, has changed/grown.  We are told that
he previously lost his job from "buffoonery, clownish behavior,
insubordination."  Later, when confronted with his past, he admits
"nothing builds discipline like poverty."  If he had changed *in*
the story, I would call that two-dimensional.  But, since the change
occured *before* the story picks up, it still seems somewhat one-
dimensional.

The new lawyers and `hackers' are also somewhat more palatable in
this story.  In fact, Nathan Daniels/Harley 5000 and Roy Stark/Trig
are now `establisment'.  But, once again except for Steve Schiwetz,
everyone seems to have fairly straightfoward roles.  As a perfect
example, the above two programmers are told to erase Valentina, but
when they find out it is intelligent, they go against their boss's
order and let it free.  When their boss finds out, we find out
"they're hidin', like any smart hacker would if he was in the
trashfile on the boss's directory."  While that is a possible
behavior, I can think of another, *very* appropriate response for
them.  (I refrain from mentioning it for fear of ruining the
suspense.)  Of course, it would mean risking their jobs for a
greater goal....

My impression, quite simply, is that the story is a two-dimensional
matrix of one-dimensional characters.  (Not *pure* white and black
hats, but disappointing few greyish hats).

Finally, a needless suspense `gadget' is the fact that Valentina
still risks permanent `death.'  Since they first formed the
corporation, one of their immediate goals should have been obtaining
a home base for Valentina.  That way, there would be no question of
Valentina, Inc., stealing services from other companies (which is
occuring now, as she is using their computers & communication lines
without paying for them).  Furthermore, because of the facilities to
produce backup copies of it, Valentina could take far greater risks
at the cost of occasionally being reconstructed from backup tapes.

                 >>>>  Beginning major spoiler <<<<

A last, but lethal flaw in this story concerns Valentina testifying
in court.  I can envision AI programs eventually testifying in
court, but I can definitely not envision any sane trial judge
allowing testimony over a terminal connected to a world-wide
computer network.  If an AI program were allowed to testify, almost
certainly the court would require (1) no other terminals or
communication lines connected to the machine, (2) expert testimony
that the operating system present was the minimum required to run
the machine, (3) the purge of all other files throughout core and
disk space, and (4) expert testimony that the AI program was not
modified to provide `convient' answers.  A court would *not* allow a
terminal to state `I am a AI program' when hundreds to thousands of
users were connected to the network at the same time!  After all,
how is it (the court) to know that someone in Idaho Falls (or any
other place) is not controlling the terminal in the courtroom?  Yet,
the judge finally said, "The witness, in my opinion, is competent,
Gentlemen.  I'm going to let the jury hear her."

ave discordia                   going bump in the night ...
bruce giles

{decvax, duke}!ucf-cs!giles     university of central florida
giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay         orlando, florida 32816

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 09:05:37 PDT (Friday)
From: mreilly.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Man who Ruled the World and Other Novels.

Another novel in the same "sentient program" vane, is the
Adolescence of P1. Unfortunately I don't remember the author's name
(Any help?).  Anyway it is not quite as fanciful as Michaelmas but
it is somewhat unbelievable.  Wouldn't be as fun if it wasn't. The
book is definitely worth reading though.

--Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sun 1 Jul 84 16:16:52-PDT
From: M.MCLURE%LOTS-A@SU-SCORE.ARPA
Subject: best constructed worlds

Duntemann.wbst@xerox's liking of Varley's Titan series over all
other constructed world series is interesting. I have read a few of
the famous ones (Ringworld, Riverworld, Titan, etc.) but think
really the first Dune book takes the cake, easily. The later Dune
books are garbage.

As a second choice, Asimov's Foundation series maintains its quality
throughout better than all others, in my opinion. Sure, there's
stilted dialogue, but the creativity persists.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 84 15:59:29-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Klaatu

   Apologies if a munged-up version of this article was already
posted; that's the way it goes.
   So, I'm not the only one to confuse the story "Farewell to the
Master", by Harry Bates, and the Kelly Freas cover illustrating a
Tom Godwin story about a military type who learned, to his dismay,
that computers do >exactly< what you tell them to. Both appeared in
Astounding SF; however, the Godwin story came out in 1953. Trivia
question: who knows the title of Godwin's story? And another: what
other story is Godwin justifiably well known for?
   True, the Freas cover was later adapted as a record jacket for a
Queen album. It was also used as the cover illo. for an anthology
edited by Harry Harrison, a "last issue of Astounding", which came
out shortly after Campbell's death. As a result, three images are
inextricably mixed up in my memory: my sorrow on learning of
Campbell's death, the feeling of loss at the end of "Farewell to the
Master", and the painting of a robot gently holding the dead body of
a once- powerful man, as if asking, "Please fix it..."

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1984 10:27:00-EDT
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc

        ************Ghostbusters SPOILER********************

No, I agree with Ben Walls.  Before Sigourney Weaver started having
problems, the Ghostbusters had captured the thing in the ritzy
hotel, and I think a couple of others, and put them in their
toaster.  One of the first things the Keeper confides to
...somebody, I forget who... is that when he finds Zool "All the
prisoners will be freed."  I liked that touch: these defectives
cause a horrendous mess, then become heroes for cleaning it up at
the expense of a great deal of property damage.

I thought the film was hilarious, and guffawed throughout it amidst
the stony silence of the rest of the small audience.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 1984  00:56 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA>
Subject: sf at Filmex

    Date: Tuesday, 19 June 1984  15:09-EDT
    From: Peter Reiher <reiher at UCLA-CS.ARPA>
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   sf at Filmex

    July 17 "Ring of Power"
                    "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated
            feature about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll
            superstar is set in a post-apocalyptic metropolis and
            features the voices of Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara,
            and the music of Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry,
            Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and Fire."

This is almost certainly a re-release of "Rock and Rule", a picture
which bit the big one last year, made by Nelvana, a Canadian
animation house. This, by the way, is the film that convinced
Nelvana to stop doing animated movies (and consequently drop the
Elfquest movie...)
                        James M. Turner
                        ARPA: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
                              JMTURN@MIT-MC
                        UUCP: Left as an exercise to the reader

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 84 14:58:34-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Holes in movies

More to the point, instead of idly discussing what is so bad about
movies, and explaining that it is so bad because ``the product will
sell anyway'', why not hit the problem at its roots, and (a) don't
go to movies that you hear to be bad. ( of course, most people
prefer to make up their own minds about this, which leaves: ) (b) if
it is bad, write to the producer/writer/anyone else you can think
of, and tell them. They do actually listen. Even television people
read mail, movie people must too.

{decvax,cornell,astrovax,uvm-gen,colby}!dartvax!karl;karl@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Jun 1984 14:21:39-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Excelsior, etc., ad nauseam

This discussion does seem to have moved rather far afield from SF,
but...

>        I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary
>        recently, but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing
>        material as the second definition?

> Nope! It is the only definition given.

>        Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning
>        page by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply"
>        were equivalent?  O tempora, O mores.  (O the tempura, O
>        the morels) O DI immortales!

Dii manes, but I'm fascinated to learn that there are other Latin
lovers about!  And I do like morels, too.

> Actually, in my edition (1974), they take great pains to make sure
> one understands the two words are "carefully distinguished in
> modern usage.... not interchangeable."

> However it is a cruddy dictionary, I have been looking for any
> dictionary where I can find the definition of "perjorative" (sic?)
> or instantiate.  Anyone got one?  Can't wait to get my Oxford
> English Dictionary on a chip.

Why bless my bones, and isn't deja vu wonderful!  'Twas just last
year that I witnessed a friend suffering from the selfsame
lamentable complaint.  Well sir, I have just what the doctor
ordered, the wonder tonic of the century! It's called the Oxford
AMERICAN Dictionary (fancy that!), and it contains the following
definitions (pronunciations, etc., omitted for lack of a sufficient
character set):

excelsior:  interj. (as a motto etc.)  higher.

imply:  v.  1. to suggest without stating directly, to hint.

infer: v.  1. to reach an opinion from facts or reasoning.  2. to
imply. ( >this use should be avoided because it conceals the
distinction between infer and imply.)

instantiate:  v.  to represent by an instance.

pejorative:  adj.  disparaging, derogatory.

We should all bear in mind what dictionaries REALLY are, as
explained in the soon-to-be-released CURMUDGEON'S DICTIONARY:

DICTIONARY: A collection of what the editors fondly hope passes for
educational material, intended to record how words are used.  Widely
believed to prescribe the correct usage of language, in consequence
of which belief the language is rapidly going to hell in a
handbasket.  Dictionaries are not entirely without merit, however;
they often earn their editors large sums of money.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Excelsior: The Word (Am. Heritage Dict.)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 84 12:31 EDT

Since my copy of it is handy...  your definition of excelsior is
correct from the AHD, but you miss a few points:
   "excelsior" as wood shavings is a *noun*.  The postnote for the
definition says "[Originally a trade name, from Latin, comparative
of excelsus, high, from the past participle of excellere, to
EXCEL.]"  The definition of "excel" is pretty much what you would
expect it to be.  There is no listing of when the trade name dates
to, but the ship name of excelsior probably predates it, and
probably refers more to its Latin roots than businessperson
applications.  In other words, people, it is an archaic adjective.
Like "Defiant", etc.
   -steve

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 84 13:23 MST
From: "Ronald B. Harvey" <Harvey%pco@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Excelsior

Here's what Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable has to say on
the subject:

Excelsior (Lat. higher). Aim at higher things still. It is the motto
of the United States and has been made popular by Longfellow's poem
so named.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #129
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 84 1613-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #129
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:
    
    Books - Vance & SF Pronounciation & Farewell to the Master,
    Films - 2001 Poster & Clan of the Cave Bear &
            Sigourney Weaver & Spielberg & Star Wars (2 msgs),
    Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
    Miscellaneous - Excelsior (2 msgs) & Star Trek the Game

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jul 84 23:41:09 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Lyonesse" by Jack Vance

I'd like to put in an enthusiastic plug for Jack Vance's "Lyonesse",
a new or relatively new work of fantasy.  Vance is one of the few
science fiction authors who really know how to write, rather than
just how to string together plot and gimmicks.  "Lyonesse" is a fine
example of his work.

"Lyonesse", unlike his Dying Earth books, is in the form of an
extended fairy tale for adults.  The language is not as wryly
baroque, but is still quite rich, and very funny in the appropriate
places.  The story concerns a mythical continent, now sunk beneath
the waves, during the early middle ages.  It is a land of fairies
and magic, at least more so than the rest of Europe, relatively
untouched by Christianity.  (Vance does not give a very portrait of
that religion, which might offend those born again.)  The continent
is divided up into several kingdoms, and is threatened by invasion
by the ruthless Ska, who consider all other humans little better
than animals.  Several of the kings scheme to reunite the realms
under one rule.  Powerful wizards remain mostly aloof in the
background.

But this isn't really the story of great policy, but rather the tale
of a beautiful, forlorn princess, a betrayed prince, their lost
child, and a wizard with a softer heart than is usual among his
kind.  The book is filled with death defying escapes, battles,
treachery, magic, and quests, one leading to another.  There are
suitably nasty villains, who, rather uniquely, have their points of
view, too, and are not mere stick figures of evil.  There are also
many characters who combine good traits and bad.  Vance is one
author in sf who knows how to create real characters, and isn't
afraid to sacrifice them, when necessary.

"Lyonesse" is a fairly long book (over 400 pages of fairly small
type) and leaves you wanting more.  Just as well, then, that this is
the first book of a series of unspecified length.  Vance's is the
most impressive fantasy world I've encountered since my mother read
me "The Lord of the Rings" (a looong time ago).  I recommend it
without reservation.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 5:38:15-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF Pronunciation

I think that what I do with unpronounceables is about what I do with
really long names: just use the random collection of letters as a
pointer to the character that my mind has assembled.  Of course,
this will only occur after several mentions of the character.
Another help is that if the character is ever referred to by a
nickname, I will usually use that as a handle.  I try to stay over
400 wpm (I don't time myself, I'm just estimating based on my max of
800 on newspaper articles (narrow columns) and 600 on most books),
so I usually don't labor over the name.  I just finished "Time
Enough for Love," and I was thrown a little by the fact that
Hamadryad was referred to as Hamadear, Hamadarling, and other such
things.  Once, someone was asking a question, and to address it to
her added "Ham?"  I thought he was asking if anyone wanted some of
the salted pig meat.  (She's also called Hammy, and that's very
funny to us at this facility, but the rest of you won't get it...)
-- Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 0:05:40-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Klaatu (and Queen/ASF)

     Lest there be any lingering confusion:

     1) The ASF cover which inspired the album cover for Queen's
"News of the World" is from the 10/53 issue, was done by Frank Kelly
Freas, and illustrates a Tom Godwin story, "The Gulf Between".
     2) The story "Farewell To The Master", by Harry Bates (on which
the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was loosely based)
appeared in the 10/40 issue of ASF, 13 years before the cover, and
is totally unrelated.

     On to trivia; utzoo!kcaroll asked what story Tom Godwin was
best known for - it's "The Cold Equations" (ASF, 8/54). Now, a
tougher question. Now that we know that the Freas "robot" cover was
not from the same issue as "Farewell To The Master"... what story
*was* illustrated on the cover of the 10/40 ASF in which "Farewell
To The Master" appeared (hint: it was not FTTM)?

     Queen seems fond of science fiction - I recommend watching for
their current music video, "Radio Ga-Ga", for another example of
this.  It includes many clips from Fritz Lang's "Metropolis", and
other parts that imitate scenes from the film. Pretty good song,
too.
                                         Kenn Barry
                                         NASA-Ames Research Center
                                         Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:          {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 11:17 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: 2001 poster

Does anyone have or know where I could find *any* kind of poster
showing anything about 2001 the movie (or book).

Price is definitely an object, as I am not a serious collector.

Thanks,
Tom Perrine
{tom@logicon>

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84  17:29 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: Movie gossip, Clan of the Cave Bear

I have not read same, but my mother (a 6th grade school teacher)
liked "Clan of the Cave Bear".

Mike Rubin - why do you think its so bad?

As to Darryl Hannah playing "Ayla", it is more than common for older
mid-20's actors and actresses to play teens.

Isn't the star of "The Karate Kid" in his early 20's?

From the outside looking in,
{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 84 7:04:56-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!abs @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Sigourney Weaver

Perry (Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA) says (about Sigourney Weaver):

        "... she hasn't had a good role since 'Alien'"

C'mon, Perry!  What about "The Year of Living Dangerously"?  She
played a character far deeper than the one she played in "Alien".
(The movie was quite a bit better, as well.)  I think that she'd
make a great Scirocco Jones, incidently, regardless of her nose and
beauty.
                                Andrew B. Siegel
                                (with regards to Andrew D. Sigel)
                                philabs!rdin!abs

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 84 11:14:21 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Article about Spielberg's films
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@XEROX.ARPA>

Recently there was some mention of trends in Spielberg films. For a
thought-provoking article that discusses a trend see

"Why Steven Spielberg Has Gone Over the Brink Into Violence in
'Indiana Jones'" by Michael Ventura in the L.A. Weekly (It's
probably been reprinted in many places; I found it in the Sunday San
Francisco Chronicle Datebook, Sunday, June 24th, p. 35.)

Basically, it shows that all his films have "the chase of the
unknown vs. man, the man vs. the unknown and finally, chaos." An
important point to consider, which this article doesn't, is that
there are people other than Spielberg who wrote some of these
movies.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 15:37:24-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!nsc!chongo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: SW I or SW VII?

at USENIX, some Lucasfilm folks were being asked (as I'm sure they
get asked too many times...) about the next movie.  anyway the
Lucasfilm people correctly did not respond.  but one of the persons
doing the asking was saying that the next film might be SW VII and
not SW I.  anyone know about this matter?

chongo <im already waiting in line for tickets...> /\zz/\

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 8:53:20-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!mgnetp!ltuxa!tty3b!ponce @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the ANSWER

Yes.  They show a white cloud effect.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Jun 84 09:00:47-EDT
From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Jelly babies

Jelly babies are not at all like jelly beans (does Ronald Reagan
REALLY call them Gelly beans?).  Jelly babies are shaped like little
people - arms, legs, head - and are soft, mildly flavoured, and
delicious.  Jelly beans have a hard shell, much stronger flavour,
and are shaped like beans.

Jelly babies are very popular in England, probably second only to
"liquorice comfits" (somewhat like "torpedoes").  The export of
jelly babies to Gallifrey makes no significant contribution to the
British balance of trade.

"Hello, what are you?"  - Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 21:34:56-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dr. Who memorabilia

   From _BBC Doctor Who 20th Anniversary Special_:

   "If you wanted to, you could now sit in your room, with Doctor
Who wallpaper, or Doctor Who ceramic tiles on the wall, sipping
coffee from a Doctor Who mug, and nibbling on a Doctor Who Chew Bar,
or Easter egg, while you admire your collection of Doctor Who dolls,
your Tardis pencil box, and Doctor Who posters, or alternatively you
could play with your Doctor Who yo-yo, or browse through your
collection of over 80 Doctor Who books.
   "If it all got too much for you, you could change into your
Doctor Who underpants (if you're a chap), your Doctor Who sweatshirt
and Doctor Who baseball cap, take a few coins out of your Doctor Who
moneybox and go down to your local arcade to play a Doctor Who video
game on a Tardis-shaped machine..."

And from later in the article:

   "'The major consideration is whether or not the product is
relevant to the programme', said Christopher Crouch, of BBC
Enterprises."

Okay.

   But anyway, if you're interested in books or posters (the two
items that I know are available in the states; anyone else out there
in net.land know of any other products?), talk to your local
comic-book store; they usually have sources they can order from
(sorry, grammar fans: "sources from which they can order").  I have
a couple of posters, including a nice one of the Tardis (the
proprietor of the store, when he got them in, said "why would anyone
want a poster of a telephone booth?").

                             "Are you in charge here?"
                             "No, but I'm full of ideas!"

Human:  Jamie Green @ Gordon's Account
UUCP:   {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon
ARPA:   gordon@uw-june

            Gordon hates flames, so send 'em in!

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 15:27 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Excelsior else

        "I hardly think New York calls itself the Excelsior State
because of its overwhelming lumber industry."

Well actually New York doesn't call itself the "Excelsior State" at
all.  New York is the Empire State (as in Building).  New York's
*motto* is Excelsior.  You're welcome.

                        "In DWIM We Trust"
                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 09:04 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Excelsior and Dictionaries

Where are you people buying your dictionaries these days?  My
"Webster's New World Dictionary" has the definition and derivation
of excelsior:

"excelsior () adj, interj [see EXCEL] always upward --- n.  long
thin wood shavings use for packing."

Not bad for $2.50. Who needs the Oxford-on-a-chip?

Tom Perrine
"engineeers kant spel gud."
{tom@LOGICON.ARPA}

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 84 11:33:29 pdt
From: <vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb@rand-unix>
Subject: Star Trek - Space Battles

     Frederick Paul Kiesche III recently made a reference to the
Task Force Games products, _Star_Fleet_Battles_ and
_Federation_Space_ which provide a gaming version of the Star Trek
universe.

These products, designed largely by a gentleman by the name of
Stephen V. Cole have always provided a much more rational handling
of the Star Trek universe than have the series or films. For one
thing, when he designs ships he makes them much more sound
engineering. For another, the games weapon systems are more
consistent and the tactics correct than we've seen in series or
film.

The only thing I've ever taken issue with the game was the
introduction of the Kzin race but that's not Cole's fault but rather
Larry Niven's for adapting one of his short stories from a Known
Space story (The Soft Weapon) into a Star Trek one; and what Kzin
and Slaver Empires are doing in the Star Trek Universe, nobody
knows.

There is a major error that few people pick up on; and that is that
the Star Trek ship designs do not take into account the three
dimensional characteristics of space battle. The Enterprise ( and
all Klingon designs ) have immense angles through which they cannot
fire their weapons. The photons (which moved from the upper saucer
surface to the hull pylon between the Five Year Mission and
_Star_Dreck_The_Boring_Picture_ ) fire almost straight forward.
There is no phaser system capable of firing to below-rear at all.

In fact, the only 3-D battle we've seen is in STII and it was a bit
silly.  Instead of attempting to approach the Reliant from an
unexpected angle, ( remember everyone was on visual ) Kirk just
moves straight "down" for a bit ( "3rd Floor - Vulcan underwear,
Klingon sexual devices, Romulan marital aids ") and then back "up".
Not really my idea of 3-D thinking.

Believe it or not, the most thought out space tactics I've seen
comes from E.E. "Doc" Smith's _Lensman_ series. Flying Cone tactics
and cylinder formations.
                                 Robin D. Roberts
                                 TTI - Citicorp
                                 AT&T (213) 450 - 9111 x 2916
                                 vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb

                          aka Buskirk the Valerian
                                Death to Tyrants !
                                Death to Boskone !

This has been a service of the Galactic Patrol News Service.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #130
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 84 1400-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #130
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:
            Art - Record Covers (2 msgs),
            Books - Asimov & Clement (2 msgs) & Piper &
                    Cthulhu & SF Pronunciation & Constructed Worlds &
                    The Cold Equations & Medea,
            Films - Gremlins & Ghostbusters,
            Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jul 84 12:53:59 edt
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: QUEEN album cover
Cc: lindsay%tartan@cmu-cs-c

   Sorry, Don, but the album cover in question has nothing to do
with either the book or the movie. JMB, as 1/2 of Two Wild and Crazy
Indexers, will probably have the exact reference, but I recall from
Freas' showcase/ autobiography, the original was
  1. Freas' first cover for ASTOUNDING
  2. Done for a Tom Godwin story (not "The Cold Equations", but the
same sort of "The universe is absolutely indifferent to us, which is
as bad as if it actively hated us" tripe)
  3. repainted by Freas at the band's request (the original had one
slightly bloody, typically-built male corpse instead of a cluster of
upstanding frippie heaks).  Apparently they invited Freas to a
concert in an airplane hangar to see them in action, and he was
foolish enough to go without earplugs. . . .

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 11:19:33 EDT
From: Brian Charles Sudis <bsudis@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: METROPOLIS and RECORD COVERS

        Well how about both front and back covers of the Be Bop
Delux "LIVE IN THE AIR AGE"!!

        I tend to like that one above most SF covers that
I have seen!
                (but what do I know)
                                        bsudis@bbncct.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 84 16:01:32-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!ihlpf!ARPA @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: "Re: Inventory of SF works by Hal Clement - (nf)"

any brave soul out there DARE to try isaac asimov?  i've got 50+ of
his books, but that's just a drop in the bucket.  what's amazing is
these aren't rehashes of the same old story.  most aren't even
fiction.  "pick a topic, any topic..."

        ron     (replies to:  ihnp4!ihdev!rjv)

ps: how close is asimov to breaking the 300 mark (books published),
        or has he already?

------------------------------

Date: 03 Jul 84 19:13:40 PDT (Tue)
To: Rich Wales <wales@Ucla-Locus>
Subject: Re: Inventory of SF works by Hal Clement
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

Here are some short stories you missed, & all I know about them:

"Proof"
copyright 1942 by Street & Smith Publications
first published in 'Astounding Science Fiction' June 1942
printed in 'SF: Authors' Choice 2'
        ed by Harry Harrison
        Berkley Medallian Books 1970
also printed in 'Where do We Go From Here'
        ed by Isaac Asimov
        Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1971

"Hot Planet"
copyright 1963 by Galaxy Publishing Corporation
in 'The 9th Annual of the Year's Best SF'
        ed by Judith Merril
        Simon and Schuster, Inc 1964

"The Logical Life"
copyright 1974 by Ballantine Books
first printed in 'Stellar #1'
        ed by Judy-Lynn del Rey
        note: NOT 'Stellar' - that's a DIFFERENT anthology by del
        Rey
        Ballantine Books 1974

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT
Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys...

There was a Hal Clement story I didn't see on that list:  "Seasoning,"
which was part of a rather silly series of "shared world" stories
surrounding a planet which Harlan Ellison designed (not built.)  It
was in IASFM about four years ago, and involved baloon creatures and a
supercomputer named Black Diamond (chummily referred to as "Beedee.")
Definitely minor Clement, but if you're a completist...

--Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 14:44 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE by H. Beam Piper

The final Fuzzy book written by H. Beam Piper, FUZZIES AND OTHER
PEOPLE, has just been published by Ace Books.  I hope it will be the
last novel ever published about these beings; I feel certain Piper
intended it to be, just from having read it.  Piper was writing a
future history at the time of his death, and the first Fuzzy novel,
LITTLE FUZZY, was intended to be a one-shot, but the little critters
proved so popular that he wrote a sequel, and, we now see, another
sequel.

The novel feels right.  FUZZY BONES by William Tuning, written when
it seemed that the "lost" novel would stay lost, tried very hard to
capture Piper's style and nearly succeeded, but it shifted scene too
often, and was a little too cute at times.  FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE
also continues the story from the end of FUZZY SAPIENS, and does so
in a way that works better, given the characters as presented.
Piper does take a few easy ways out, and the plot really isn't much
to hang a book on, but I have always wanted to see how Piper would
handle scenes that just had Fuzzies against the wilderness (as in
the Ardath Mayhar book GOLDEN DREAM), so I guess I'm satisfied.

I suppose the thing I'm least happy with is Piper's final conclusion
of the sapience level of Fuzzies.  When all is said and done, I
prefer Tuning's explanation, especially as it fits so nicely with
the titanium requirement in the Fuzzy diet.  It does have to come
from somewhere, and Piper shouldn't have failed to explain it.

If you've read any of the other Fuzzy books, you should get this
one.  If you haven't, I'd start with LITTLE FUZZY first.  It's too
bad that Piper isn't around to enjoy his success; Ace Books is
making a mint off it, and if he'd known what would happen, maybe he
would have kept writing instead of committing suicide.

                               Andrew D. Sigel
                               (with regards to Andrew B. Siegel)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 84 11:08:05 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Follow-up to Cthulhu Mythos request

As it's been a month since my original request for pointers to
additional Cthulhu Mythos stories, I thought I should honor my
promise to summarize my results for SF-LOVERS everywhere.

Unfortunately for me, no one was able to add substanially to my
list, nor could anyone give me pointers to the Berglund
bibliography.  Bob Webber told me about Robert's Bloch's MYSTERIES
OF THE WORM; Carl Powell gave we WORM and Bloch's mythos novel,
STRANGE EONS.  While I thank these folks, I did have these books
already and simply forgot to add Bloch's name to the original list.
Carl also mentioned the Hastur/Carcosa stories by Ambrose Bierce,
the stories of Arthur Machen, and Robert Chambers's THE KING IN
YELLOW.  These may be considered "source material" for Mythos
stories, but as they were written well before Lovecraft created
Cthulhu, they're not Mythos stories, as such.

Winston Edmond called my attention to the Avon paperback
NECRONOMICON, as did Carl.  I've avoided this book because a) it's
not Cthulhu fiction, and b) it's a fake.  I suspect the author is
somehow connected with Satanist Anton Szandor LaVey, who once wrote
some Cthulhu rituals for one of his "Satanic Bibles".

However, Carl also mentioned another NECRONOMICON, which I'd be
interested in seeing.  I quote his paragraph in full:

"There are also two books out about the Necronomicon.  Necronomicon,
published by Avon (I think) and The Necronomicon, published by
Corgi.  The former is a bunch of Persian (I think) mythology revised
by someone named Simon, while the latter is supposedly a decryption
of the book brought back from the court of Stanislaus IV (?), king
of Poland, by John Dee, a mystic from Elizabethan times.  The latter
also contains a lot of conjectures about how Lovecraft might have
gotten ahold of the book, biographical data, etc.  Much more
informative than the former.  It is edited by George Hay.  I got my
copy in a book store in Ireland, and have yet to see a copy in the
States."

Let's get this straight: the Necronomicon, the real Necronomicon,
doesn't exist.  Lovecraft admitted inventing it.  He forged
bibliographical data for it (HIST. & CHRON. OF THE NECR.), and did
it so well that many folks thought it was a real book.  BUT he may
have seen some occult tome and used it as source material.  This may
be what Hay's book is.  In any event, I'd like to see a copy of it.
Any further info on it, anyone?

Finally, a repeat plea: what I'm looking for are places where Mythos
stories may have been anthologized.  SHORT STORY INDEX doesn't cover
every anthology, nor is it useful unless I have particular
authors/titles I'm looking for.  I want stuff I haven't heard of
yet, as well as stuff I have heard of but haven't read.  Please see
my earlier request in SF-LOVERS for details; it's too long to
reproduce here.

Thanks to those who responded; Cthulhu fthagn!

                                Chris Jarocha-Ernst
                                JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 84 16:01:12-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!ihlpf!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: "Re: Re: SF Pronunciation - (nf)"

so, i'm not the only one who blows off trying to pronounce names
that don't look like 'jones' or 'harry'.  i do the same thing in a
lot of stories: if the name isn't like the above mentioned, i just
look at it, and don't even TRY to pronounce it.  one problem with
this method, however - what happens in class when you have to write
an essay about a book and you can't remember the names of the
characters??  i could only recognize them if i saw them.  what a
terrible habit, i really should break myself of it.  BUT i refuse to
actually slow the ol' mental process down (mine's slow enough,
anyway!) just to read the sentence "but zjakp, how can the thporzp
dynasty live without the blessing of muqka-cvc?", asked cffta.

"ok, ok, get to the science fiction part," the net yells!  well,
this got me to thinking about all the wonderful(?) sf names i've
read before.  i think one of the reason asimov is at the top of my
list is most of his futuristic names were....well, they were
realistic.  pronouncible.  i just went and grabbed the first asimov
book i had laying around (foundations edge) and started looking for
some names at random.  gendibal, preem palver, trevize, branno,
quintesetz......  that was just skimming a few pages.  i can SAY
those out loud.  i LIKE that feature in a name.

so, the big debate begins: should futuristic names be any damn thing
the author feels, adding a sense of 'not of this world/time', or
should they be something like 'danell olivaw' (now THAT'S a good
futuristic name.  you KNOW it came from 'daniel oliver', and that
makes it all the better. (he was a robot, by the by...))

let's hear ideas on:
        what should the names look like,
        who has the best names for his/her characters,
        who has the worst,
        most memorable sf names

my god ron!  this topic deals with sf.  it's going to allow people
to reminisce about old sf stories they haven't read in years, more
experienced readers to pass on little tidbits of information to the
less experienced readers (me), and you forgot to mention star-trek
III.  GOOD!  it's about time we got some new topics in this
notesgroup.

        now here's a name:
                ron vaughn      (replies to ihdev!rjv)

ps, i'm already waiting for some smart-ass B-) to go digging into
his asimov books and pull out a 'xxygbm' like name.  i'm sure
there's one (or more) out there, but I'M not gonna' find them.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT
Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys...

No, no!  You got it wrong!  When I spoke of "constructed worlds" I 
meant more than just "built systematically in the head of a writer."  
I meant a planet or planet-sized thingie which was put together out of
whole cloth or reworked wholesale (a la Riverworld) for some purpose.
L5 tincan worlds like Rosinante and Bova's Colony are small change.  I
mean BIIIIG.  Ringworld.  Cuckoo.  Riverworld.  Gaea.  Artifacts or
complete crustal reconstructions.  Did I miss any?

--Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT
Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys...

Tom Godwin is, of course, famous for "The Cold Equations," a story I 
never bought anyway.  It's been 20 years since I read it, but it seems
as though they could have unbolted a chair and thrown in out the door
instead of the girl.  What we in the trade call "idiot plot."

--Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT
Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys...

By the way, did that anthology (called MEDEA: Harlan's World) ever hit
print?  None of the stories fit in with any of the others; some made
the baloon things intelligent and some did not; one writer gave them
the ability to move about at will like dirigibles without saying how;
stuff like that.  A mess, like most anything Harlan gets his fingers
into.

Illigitimati non carborundum, you latin hacks--

--Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Tue 3 Jul 84 22:50:49-EDT
From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Gremlins ripoff (minor spoiler)

Did no one else notice that in addition to ripping off every movie
they could get their hands on, Spielberg, Dante, and Columbus also
ripped off a Gahan Wilson cartoon?

In the scene where the girl is explaining why she hates Xmas, she
tells how, when she was 9, her father dressed up as Santa Claus and
tried to come down the chimney. But he slipped and broke his neck
and stayed there until the odor caused them to call a sweep. This is
very much like a favorite Gahan of mine where some sweeps are
pulling out a skeleton dressed in a Santa suit from a fireplace. The
caption is something like: "Well, we found what's been blocking your
chimney since last December Ma'mm".

Steal from one, it's plagarism. Steal from a lot and its research or
a tribute.

tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 19:16 CDT
From: Giebelhaus@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Ghostbusters

           ***************** SPOILER *******************

  I disagree with Ben Walls and Carol.  The building was built long
ago.  Surely it was built before any of the busters was born and the
building surly had alot to do with attracting Zool and Co.  The
building was ment to attract the destruction of the world with, or
without, the help of any ghostbusters.  Second, the ghost started
acting up before they put their toaster to work.  There was the one
in the library and the one in the hotel which had both been very
quiet till late.  I think that it was the coming that got them all
stirred up.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1984 11:29-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <taw at S1-C>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who memorabilia

      "If you wanted to, you could now sit in your room, with Doctor
   Who wallpaper, or Doctor Who ceramic tiles on the wall, sipping
   coffee from a Doctor Who mug, and nibbling on a Doctor Who Chew
   Bar, or Easter egg, while you admire your collection of Doctor
   Who dolls, your Tardis pencil box, and Doctor Who posters, or
   alternatively you could play with your Doctor Who yo-yo, or
   browse through your collection of over 80 Doctor Who books."

Quite a few years ago a guy named Mike Jittlov made an excellent
(and very funny) short stop-motion film about a guy who had *every*
piece of Mickey Mouse memorabilia ever made.

Perhaps it is time he made "Memorabilia II: Dr. Who"...... --Tom

P.S. Jittlov is very popular at many of the West Coast science
fiction conventions (I don't know if he makes it to anywhere else).
If you get the chance, go see his work.  Especially the Wizard of
Speed and Time.  It's all shoestring budget but amazingly good
stuff.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #131
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 84 1055-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #131
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 7 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:
       Books - SF Pronunciation & Best SF 83 Book Exchange &
               Story Request,
       Films - Ghostbusters & Sigourney Weaver & Gremlins &
               The Last Starfighter (2 msgs),
       Television - The Day of the Triffids

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Jul 1984 06:28:03-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)

Being a lover of English who has also a smattering of other
languages, I make my best effort at pronunciation of unusual names.
For me there is a loss of pleasure if I can't savour the sound of a
word.  It's quite interesting that even a simple word can receive
two radically different treatments; "Dosadi", from Frank Herbert's
"The Dosadi Experiment", (and also my system name) is an example.
It can be pronounced either as "DOE-suh-dye" or "Doe-SAH-dee".
Which sounds better?  I think the second does, but if someone else
prefers the first, that's understandable.  Weird, but
understandable.  :-)

Often, deliberately or not, the author has given a clue to the
correct pronunciation.  "Klaatu" is an example of this.  The "aa"
sound is one that appears in Scandinavian languages and also in
Dutch.  In Swedish, it is written as an "a" with a small circle over
it, and it represents a very broad "awh" sound.  (It's
transliterated into English by the doubled "a".)  In Dutch, it is
written as "aa" and represents a broad "ah"; thus, it's a fairly
safe bet to assume that it ought NOT to be pronounced like a short
"a" as in "bat".

Sometimes one must search rather far afield for the phonetics.  The
name of the human ship in "First Contact" was "Llanvabon" - this
word could be of Spanish origin, with the "Ll" at its beginning, but
it more likely has Welsh roots, and the sound in Welsh of the "Ll"
is "Thl", making "Thlan-VAH-bon" a fairly good guess at the name.

At the other end of the scale, an author may state explicitly that
there is no correct pronunciation available to English speakers;
this is the line chosen by Heinlein in "Glory Road" - after a few
lines of italicized transliterations, the Hero states that he won't
try to render any more Nevian into English sounds.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)
UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 84 9:34:18-PDT (Mon)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!iddic!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Best SF 83 Book Exchange

Just got my latest LOCUS complete with the "LOCUS poll" results.  I
try to read most of the books on their list, just because I've found
from experience that their recommendations match my taste. Here is
the list for BEST SF NOVEL:
                                               I've read    I've got
1. Startide Rising  D. Brin                        x
2. The Robots of Dawn  I. Asimov                   x
3. Millenium J. Varley                             x
4. Helliconia Summer B. Aldiss                     o
5. The Void Captains Tale  N. Spinrad              x           x
6. Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern A. McCaffrey         o
7. Thendara House  M. Z. Bradley                   o
8. Against Infinity G. Benford                     x           x
9. Orion Shall rise  P. Anderson                   o
10. The Nonborn King  J. May                       o
11. Superliminal  V. Mcintyre                      o
12. Welcome, Chaos K. Wilhelm                      o
13. The Crucible of Time J. Brunner                o
14. Worlds Apart J. Haldeman                       o
15. Valentine Pontifex R. Silverberg               o
16. God of the Riverworld P.J. Farmer              o
17. The Citadel of the Autarch G. Wolfe            x
18. Forty Thousand in Gehenna C.J. Cherryh         o
19. A Matter for Men  D. Gerrold                   o
20. Birth of People's Republic of Antartica J. Calvino
21. Wall Around a Star F. Pohl                     x           x
22. Golden Witchbreed M. Gentle                    o
23. Broken Symmetries P. Preus                     o
24. Roderick at Random J. Sladel                   o
25. There is No Darkness J & J Haldeman            x           x
26. Code of the Lifemaker J. Hogan                 o
27. Tik-Tok J. Sladek                              o
28. Transformer M.Foster                           o

They also list 26 BEST FANTASY NOVELS, and 10 BEST First Novels,
with the winners The Mists of Avalon M Z Bradley and Tea with the
Black Dragon R A MacAvoy respectively.

So here's a deal: Have you got any of these in paperback?  Would you
like any of the ones I have in paperback?  Fourth Class Special Book
Rate can't be very expensive for a paperback.  I'd certainly be
willing to mail mine.  If interested, RSVP to

UUCP  ...!tektronix!iddic!brucec (I'm sure)
CSNET iddic!brucec@tektronix     (I think)
ARPA  iddic!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay (I think)

"I feel more like I do now than I did when I first got here."
                               Bruce Cheney

------------------------------

From: berch@lll-tis (Michael Berch)
Date: Fri Jul  6 15:55:59 1984
Subject: Trying to Find a Story
Cc: ./arpanet/netstuff@lll-tis

For about 8 years I have been trying to locate a story that I once
read, probably in an anthology. It probably was published in the
mid- to late-1960's. The central image of the story was a
totalitarian, highly regimented city where life became more
intolerable by the day. One of the worst things that happened to our
protagonists (a married couple?) was that the government changed the
length of the day through "The Department of Time Distribution". The
outlook was dark but not without humor.

Can someone point me to the title, author, and anthology or magazine
reference? The mood was similar to P.K. Dick, Farmer, or Ballard,
but I have researched bibliographies of these authors and cannot
find the story.

It is definitely not Ballard's "Chronopolis"; Ellison's "Repent,
Harlequin...; Farmer's "Sketches Among the Ruins of My Mind"; nor
Farmer's "Sliced-Crosswise-Only-on-Tuesday-World"; though it has
many things in common with these stories.

Thanks in advance.
                           Michael Berch
                           berch@lll-tis
                           ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!berch

------------------------------

From: ihnp4!vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb@Berkeley
Date: 5 Jul 84 18:15:19 CDT (Thu)
Subject: Ghostbusters

Now wait a minute, I just last evening saw Ghostbusters and noticed
some things in reference to some discussions here.

First, Sigourney Weaver was their FIRST client. It was so stated
when she walked into the converted firehouse. That means that "Zool"
was making a mess of her refrigerator before Ghostbusters had
collected their first apparition.

Second, don't forget all that stuff about the origin of the building
she lived in. What with the Gozer (sic) worshipping architect and
the `antenna' framework.

        Onward to my own comments, my favorite scene is in the
basement of the NY Public Library where they rush up to the
apparition of the little ol' lady librarian and say `boo' and she
`boo's' back a little more effectively.

        I didn't get the impression of a group of incompetents
cleaning up their own mess. No, I got the impression of a group of
people armed with technology but little idea of what they were
really dealing with/in. If there was a moral-to-this-story in
Ackroyd and Ramis' minds ( even sub-consciously ) this was it.

                               Robin D. Roberts
                               "Death to Tyrants !"
                               "Long live the Galactic Patrol"

                AT&T: (213) 450-9111 x 2916
                Net: ...!ihnp4!vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 84 12:36:01 PDT (Thursday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Sigourney Weaver

>Perry (Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA) says (about Sigourney Weaver):
>
>        "... she hasn't had a good role since 'Alien'"
>
>C'mon, Perry!  What about "The Year of Living Dangerously"?  She
>played a character far deeper than the one she played in "Alien".
>(The movie was quite a bit better, as well.)  I think that she'd
>make a great Scirocco Jones, incidently, regardless of her nose and
>beauty.

"The Year of Living Dangerously" was an excellent first half movie.
That is, the first half was wonderful, but it seemed to run out of
steam.  The ending was ambivalent and unsatisfying.

But to the point: Sigourney's part could just barely be considered
more than a bit part.  Sure, she provided the "important" plot turn
for the hero, Mel Gibson, but for the most part she was mere window
dressing.  An excuse for a steamy love affair.  Any way,
What's-her-face-that-got-Best-Supporting-Acctress by playing the
part of the male photographer stole the show.

And just to keep this message pertinent: If you've seen "Silkwood",
you might agree with me that Cher would probably make a better
Cirocco than Weaver.  I kid you not! (... click-clack ...
click-clack ...) Hell, if you could put up with all the protests and
jazzercise, Jane Fonda would make a decent Cirocco!

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 84 18:29:00-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: GREMLINS (GREAT. (SPOILERS))

Columbus' name IS mentioned.  If I remember right, there's a line at
the start of the opening credits to the effect of "Based on a story
by Chris Columbus".

Gary Fritz

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 84 0:13:23 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@almsa-1>
Subject: The Last Starfighter

Just saw a sneak of The Last Starfighter tonight.  Tron I liked
because of the computer-generated effects; "Starfighter" would have
been worth seeing whether it had any computer-generated footage or
not.

Don't nit-pick it, just go see and enjoy; it's a fun film!

-Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sat 7 Jul 84 02:42:57-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: The Last Starfighter (!!!SPOILER REVIEW!!!)
Cc: rubin@CUCS20

        I just went to see a 'sneak' preview of THE LAST
STARFIGHTER, so this is a

     *************************SPOILER**************************

        First of all, I would like to say that sneak previews aren't
as sneaky as they used to be. TLS's preview was given a full-page ad
in the NYT, and it is being done over two days in four theatres in
Manhatten, and about 20 around the metropolitan area. Time was, a
'sneak preview' meant something; directors would sit in and gauge
the audiences reaction to different parts, and do a final cut
according to the results. Now it's just part of the marketing hype,
an attempt to build up word-of-mouth even before the official
release.

        I went in expecting to see a special effects movie, with
maybe higher technical standards than TRON, but the same abysmal
standard of script and acting. I was pleasently surprised. While the
plot is very meager it is a perfectly adequate vehicle, and the
acting is mostly perfectly decent.

        I wont go into the plot in detail; basicly video games whiz
Alex (Lance Guest), gets recruited into a space navy by the
mysterious stranger Centauri (Robert Preston, who gives an amazing
performance as a somewhat suspect but extremely enthusiastic
persuader). He finds himself instantly inducted into the ranks of
the STARFIGHTERs, who were recruited into the force for their
special talents. They are to fight for the good Rhyol empire (you
can tell, they dress in white), against the emperors evil son Xur
(played extremely well by some (Shakespearean?) actor name of Snow).
(You can tell they're bad, they like black interior decoration) Alex
chickens out, and while he is back on Earth briefly Xur attacks the
base, believing he is killing all the Starfighters. Alex soon finds
himself back in battle, manning the armaments of the only Gunstar to
escape the destruction, with a trusty navigator in the form of Grig
(Dan Oherlihy, who is forced to act while wrapped in rich Corinthian
leather). After overcoming some initial doubts, he succeeds in
single-handedly wiping out the invading armada (though Xur escapes
for the sequel). He accepts a commission to rebuild the Rhyol fleet,
but only after he returns again breifly to Earth (in a scene
reminiscent of CE3K) to pick up his girl friend.
        There is an amusing subplot concerning events back on Earth
while he is away; Centauri left an exact duplicate android in his
place, and this 'beta-unit' has considerable trouble dealing with
Earth folk, particularly the girlfriend and Lewis, Alex's kid
brother.

        The effects are excellent: computer generated images are
used for all the space scenes, and the field has advanced vastly
since TRON (Digital Effects used a Cray X-MP). They are not stuffed
down your throat the way they were in TRON; there is always a good
reason for showing them; they advance the plot, rather than the
other way around.  The actors are generally competent or better;
though they are asked to play paper-thin characters, they do so with
sincerity and enthusiasm (I dont think Preston has had so much fun
since The Music Man). Of course, there are holes in the plot you
could drive a planetoid through, but you are left not really
minding.

        Overall, I really enjoyed the movie, and it turned out to be
*much* better than I anticipated. On a scale of 10, I would give it
about an 8.  Contrast this with GREMLINS, which was far below what I
hoped; it got a 3.  See it. It opens July 13th.

                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei@cu20b%columbia-20
                                        212-5692371H/8153711W
        Dont let THEM immannentize the Eschaton!

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 84 9:52:12-PDT (Mon)
From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV

The ARTS cable network broadcast a dramatization of John Wyndham's
"Day of the Triffids" last Saturday.  My advice to those who missed
it is: if it comes on again, SEE IT!

This version, unlike a Hollywood version done back in the 60's (I
think), was very faithful to both the letter and the spirit of the
book.  It was emphatically not high-budget, special effects,
movie-type sf.  The emphasis was on character and theme.  The
central characters were well developed and well acted (I believe
that the actor in the leading role was the teacher in the BBC series
"To Serve Them All My Days," which is currently being re-run on
Masterpiece Theater on PBS).  Although the story involves the deaths
of billions of people, this is shown in the deaths of a few, making
the impact much greater, because it is focused.

The basic theme of the story is survival: what it is worth, and how
expensive it is to the survivors and the victims.  The theme runs
thrrough this entire program, rather than being tacked on as a
message at the end.  It never gets preachy or dull, because the
story really is suspenseful: it is never clear until the end whether
anyone will survive, let alone the main characters.

I've always been partial to this book as just about the best
end-of-world story to come out of the gloom of the 40's and 50's
(well, with the exception of "Earth Abides," of course).  The
producers of the program have done a beautiful job of adapting the
book to the screen.  The production values are good, though not as
good as if it had been done with a large budget.  What keeps the
visual aspect of the film going is the "look" of the program: a good
use of light to aid the mood, and the immediacy of tape.  The score
is also quite good, providing a brooding dissonance for the nasty
parts, and good suspense music for the creepy parts.

This is easily the best thing I've seen on TV this year.

                        Bruce Cohen
                        UUCP:   ...!tektronix!orca!brucec
                        CSNET:  orca!brucec@tektronix
                        ARPA:   orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay
                        USMail: M/S 61-183
                                Tektronix, Inc.
                                P.O. Box 1000
                                Wilsonville, OR 97070

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #132
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 84 1122-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #132
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 7 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1984 1358-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: ST-III SPOILER ????

        It seems to me that everyone talking about Pon Far and SPOCK
are missing a subtle point that can be derived from the book as I
will attempt to elaborate on:

        1) Savik and David spent one/many nights together while on
           the Enterprise and the Grissom.

        2) Savik and Spock spent a night together when he was in Pon
           Far (if you read the book Triangle and take it for
           pseudo-gospel then you can see that is Spock makes Vulcan
           love the Pon Far breaks and he is normal again)

        3) Savik sees Spock as a father figure and is constantly
           trying to get him to praise her (etc)

        4) David is killed on the Genisis planet

        5) Spock is now pseudo-ok (Will he remember what happened to
           him on Genisis or will he have McCoys garbled thoughts
           for the same period???)

Anyway this leads us to ST IV which during the courtmartial and/or
award ceremony Savik will come to the conclusion that she is
pregnant (maybe Vulcan women only take 1 to 2 months to have a baby
instead of 9????) and the child will be part Romulan, part Vulcan
and part Human. The question becomes is the father David (making
Kirk a Grandpa) or Spock????? This might be an interesting little
sub plot for Kirk to think about while he is trying to find the guy
who defended him the last time he got into trouble (Samual something
(from Courtmartial))..............

                Warren Sander [SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO]

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1984 2341-EDT
From: Alan H. Martin <AMARTIN at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Re: STIII: Excelsior

There seems to be a dearth of good World Almanacs on the net.  The
nickname for New York State is "The Empire State".  Or did King Kong
climb the Excelsior State Building?  The state motto is
traditionally defined as "Ever upward".

The four other Constitution Class MK-IX heavy cruisers involved in
the war games in "The Ultimate Computer" were named Excalibur,
Lexington, Potemkin and Hood.  The name Excelsior - NCC-1718 was
reserved for use on a Bonhomme Richard Class MK-IXA heavy cruiser
whose construction was authorized by the Star Fleet appropriation of
stardate 3220.  This could not be the Excelsior of ST/III, because
the registration of the ship in the movie was NX-200 (or -2000).

The logical ship to have written in to the script to chase the
Enterprise would be the first MK-X dreadnought scheduled to be built
- the Federation - NCC-2100.  The word that describes a dreadnought
is "more".  It has one more warp engine, mounted on a short pylon
rising up out of the back of the primary hull.  It can go two warp
factors faster - cruising at warp 8 and bursts of warp 10.  It can
go for two more years (20) without stopping for refueling and
resupply.  (New York Star Trek fans know that the important
replenishment stops are not Star Bases, but White Castle hamburger
joints.)

It has one more dish antenna, at the rear of the secondary hull (the
shuttlecraft bay is at the front).  It has two more phaser banks
(they are also on the secondary hull).  It is like the Enterprise,
only it can sense more life forms, kill more life forms and ferry
more ambassadors to apologize for it all.  Maybe the first time they
built one and turned it on it sucked itself into a self-made black
hole.  Or whipped around in circles (since Federation designers have
never learned how to make the engines on these crates so that the
axis of thrust points through the center of gravity).

The dreadnoughts were real hot-rods, that is why Scotty didn't like
the Excelsior.

Alan Martin                     /AHM    (AMARTIN@DEC-MARLBORO)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 84 10:49 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV musings

Having recently seen ST III, I couldn't get a couple of ideas to go
away and let me alone, so I thought I would pass them on.  There are
two people from out of the past who would make interesting, if
temporary partners, with Kirk and company: Harry Mudd and Cyrano
Jones.  Mudd was always asking Kirk to be his partner, but Kirk was
always too busy being a straight laced Federation Star ship captain.
It is also about time for Jones to be done collecting all the
tribbles (unless you count the Saturday morning animation in which
case he lucked out already).  If Kirk has to resort to some sneaky
methods to accomplish something, I can't think of more interesting
accomplices; why shouldn't there be a whole episode which is mostly
comedy?

Also, concerning the fate of Kirk and company, it may depend on how
much Star Fleet Command is concerned with ends, as opposed to means
(i.e.  are they results oriented?).  If Kirk hadn't done what he
did, think about what would have happened.  The fate of his son
would have been worse, the fate of the Enterprise would have been
worse (in my opinion), the Klingons would have gotten what they
wanted, diplomatic relations between Earth and Vulcan wouldn't have
been improved.  On the whole Kirk accomplished much (in an apparent
no-win situation).

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84  17:42 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: pon farr

NO!  In "AMOK TIME", it is clearly told to us that Spock, not being
fully Vulcan, is not reacting normally and that NORMAL is EVERY
SEVEN years after puberty.

T'Pring, who was "betrothed" to Spock with in mind-meld in their
childhood, must have been going BONKERS waiting to see if he EVER
entered pon farr.

Many of the fanzines deal with Spock's NOT HAVING REALLY settled the
matter of his aborted pon farr.  His cycles don't resume normally
and he most often winds up with Christine Chapel for his bondsmate.
There is, of course, some interesting literature dealing with the
Kirk-Spock relationship and Spock's pon farr...

Live Long and Prosper,
{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 1-Jul-84 16:32:03-EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
Cc: bsafw
Subject: Trek III [yet more]

I finally got to see the cause of all the furor in the Digest -- and
have a few comments:

(1) Harve Bennett was great, but two are enough.  Unfortunately,
    he's managed to arrange things so that only he can get Kirk &
    Co. out of their predicament.  How do we oust him NOW?

(2) It looked like David Gerrold time.  Whose idea was all the
    humor?  (But then, we needed the comic relief -- especially
    after watching NCC-1701 go kaboom.)

(3) About Excelsior dropping its transmission: Actually, a reliable
    source tells me that it's the sound of a Model T at the end of
    its life.  As for why Scotty did that -- it seems obvious to me.
    The Captain of the Excelsior was all hyped up about "his" new
    transwarp drive -- Scotty decided to teach him a lesson.  ("GOOD
    MORNING, CAPTAIN") He deserved it!

"Aren't you going to kill me?" -- "I lied."

Brandon Allbery
6504 Chestnut Road
Independence, OH 44131

decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!{bsafw,stuart,ubbs}
BITNET: R0176%CSUOHIO (CSU administration permitting)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 84 12:12:30-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek III

>       From:  Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
> The flight recorder that was tampered with was a shuttle flight
> recorder in the episode "Courtmartial". I dont remember any
> tampering with the recorders of the Enterprise itself.

Shuttle flight recorder?  No, it was the bridge recorder of the
Enterprise.

> I think the major weakness of the movie was all the bits of the
> plot/story that were left on the cutting room floor. I can see the
> gaping holes designed to make you buy the book so you can know
> what is *really* going on.

Many of these scenes which would have helped ST3 were never shot in
the first place.  I hardly think the gaping holes were designed to
get people to buy the book.  Most people don't see these holes until
they have read the book (Trek fans excluded, of course).

> it is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a relative
> downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific Researcher.

She was a cadet in ST2, science officer of Grissom in ST3.  Not what
I would call a demotion.

> The Vulcan Temple Maidens were for more than show...didn't anyone
> else notice that they seemed to be lending power to T'Whatsername
> as she was re-recording Spock into his own head?

They were doing the same thing that Saavik, Sarek and other Vulcans
were doing: they were telepathic spectators.  The women still LOOKED
SILLY.

"The more they overthink the plumbin',
the easier 'tis to stop up the drain."
        Roger Noe                       ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 84 6:17:19-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!burton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: ST-III SPOILER ????

So many people have been speculating about Saavik and Spock and the
possible pregnancy; now someone else has brought up the book, with
the love scene between Saavik and David! If (and I mean IF) you want
to use the book as a source for information, at least use ALL the
information that's there; just before David and Saavik go at it,
David makes a point, something similar to:

David: "Um, where I'm from its polite to point out that I've passed
all my exams in Bio control"
Saavik: "Yes, I always thought the need to control the reproductive
ability amusing, until now"

This is heavily paraphrased, as I borrowed the book from a friend a
few weeks ago and have since returned it. However, the point that
was made early in the book was that apparently all humans and
apparently vulcans (maybe? at least Saavik) learn early to exercise
control over their reproductive system. IF (notice the if) you want
to take the book as Gospel, then not only is Saavik not pregnant by
David, she also is not pregnant by Spock.

Just thought I'd add more fuel to the controversy.

                        Doug Burton
                        ATT-CP Indianapolis
                        inuxg!burton

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 84 9:31:42-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: ST3, answers to commetns, possible s - (nf)

friedman@uiucdcs writes:

>> ...  It is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a
>> relative downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific
>> Researcher. ...

>I don't see that she did take a downgrade (or even a change).  It
>seems clear from Kirk's behavior in various episodes that the
>captain has some familiarity with the science station -- Kirk
>sometimes worked the controls himself.  And don't forget Chekov's
>frequent activity at the science station, as Spock's backup; he was
>also a command trainee, and was often told to take over the science
>station.  Seems to me this would just be part of command training.

The important thing here is that Saavik was not reassigned to the
Grissom permanently!  The Grissom met the Enterprise very soon after
the Genesis device was set off.  Because she was involved in the
incident and had more knowledge of the Genesis device than many
others aboard the Enterprise, she was temporarily detached for duty
aboard the Grissom to investigate the new planet.  She had to go
because the Enterprise couldn't spare anyone else.

Jon Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 84 7:31:00-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: ST3, answers to commetns, possible s

>      The flight recorder that was tampered with was a shuttle
> flight recorder in the episode "Courtmartial". I dont remember any
> tampering with the recorders of the Enterprise itself.

No, your memory is faulty on this.  There was no shuttlecraft
involved in "Court Martial" at all.  It was the Enterprise's flight
recorder that was tampered with (they didn't call it that in the
episode, but that does seem a good word for it).

>      As I remember in "Amok Time", Spock was on the order of 50+
> years old.  He had not yet had his first pon farr, and states
> during the scene where he is telling Kirk about Vulcan Birds and
> Bees that he had hoped to be spared the shame. Since the Young
> Vulcan was genetically Spock, a hybrid, I can't see why the silly
> pon farr happened so early in the first place. Saavik and he did
> not necessarily have to do anything, since in "Amok Time" he came
> out of it after fighting Kirk, when he should have died. All in
> all, a poorly done section of the movie.

You make a good point about the timing.  But I don't agree about the
comparison between relieving Spock's symptoms in "Amok Time", after
the fight, and Saavik doing so in ST III.  The point in "Amok Time"
was that the fight with another male took care of the problem.  That
couldn't have happened in ST III.  It seems to me that Spock and
Saavik had to bond in some way, telepathically, sexually, or
whatever some clever writer dreams up.  (I'll be surprised if there
isn't some treatment of this point in ST IV.)  Personally, I thought
this was a very well done scene, despite the age problem.

> ...  It is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a
> relative downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific
> Researcher. ...

I don't see that she did take a downgrade (or even a change).  It
seems clear from Kirk's behavior in various episodes that the
captain has some familiarity with the science station -- Kirk
sometimes worked the controls himself.  And don't forget Chekov's
frequent activity at the science station, as Spock's backup; he was
also a command trainee, and was often told to take over the science
station.  Seems to me this would just be part of command training.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Jul 84 15:10:48-EDT
From: Vivian R. Glueck <GLUECK@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: ST III

Sorry to come into the debate so late but...

1) The Vulcan high priestess is not T`Lon but T`Lar.

2) "Leonard Nimoy will write, direct and star in Paramounts`
    Star Trek IV" New York Post, June 18, 1984

                                        Vivian Glueck
                                        glueck@columbia-20.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #133
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 84 1542-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #133
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:
       Books - Chalker & Clement & Gibson & Jameson & Kurtz &
               Constructed Worlds & SF Pronunciation (2 msgs) &
               Concept Tie-ins in Books,
       Films - The Last Starfighter & Sigourney Weaver & 
               Silent Speeds & Jittlov & Honors in Films & Star Wars,
       Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 84 13:29:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!esmith @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Jack Chalker review (non spoiler) - (nf)

  I've heard that most people out the don't really care for the
works of Jack Chalker, but in my opinion he's written so very good
works.  His latest series "________ of the Dancing Gods" I believe
are some of better works in SF out today.
  The Dancing god series are relatively new.  The first book "The
River of the Dancing Gods", published Feb. '84, was very
entertaining and left the reader waiting for the second of a three
part series.  The premise of the books is that there is a planet
that when God created Earth this planet was created also.  The only
thing is that this planet wasn't governed by the strict set of rules
that God made for Earth, magic works here, there are wizards and
magical creatures, all governed by their own set of rules.
  Now take two normal run out of luck americans, headed for
disaster, their own deaths, and transport them to this world to
fight for Good.  Good in this case is saving the earth from
Armageddon.
  Chalker weaves a tale that rivals some of the best fantasy books
around and still leaves room for humor and great adventure.
  The second book, "Demons of the Dancing Gods", Jun. '84, picks up
where the first book stops and carries our hero and heroine on to
further adventures.
  I was very entertained by the books and made for some very good
light reading, with lots of adventure.

                           - Eric L. Smith
                            !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 84 14:56:00-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!mgnetp!burl!ulysses!allegra!mdpl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: another Hal Clement short story

Another Hal Clement short story is "Seasoning" in the Sept.-Oct.
1978 issue of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine.
                                        Mary P. Leland
                    AT&T Bell Laboratories

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 84 18:32:24 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: A review of NEUROMANCER by William Gibson

NEUROMANCER.  William Gibson.  Ace Specials, c1984.

Non-spoiler review:     Buy it, buy it!

Micro-spoiler review:

This is a futuristic thriller which deals with 'cyberspace'.  Some
between-the-lines tribute is given to Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES,
which seems to have been the first real implementation of the idea.
Gibson's world is very different from Vinge's, however, and the
action takes place in various seedy settings reminiscent of the
movie BLADERUNNER.  The action is nonstop, and the characters and
setting have a gritty, realistic feel.  If you are afraid of downer
novels, beware that the protagonists of NEUROMANCER are not
particularly sympathetic (in fact they are all professional
criminals), and a lot of, well, bad language is used.  But the book
is so skillfully done and the suspense is so great that I couldn't
put the book down once I'd started it.

Mini-spoiler review:

This is William Gibson's first novel -- NEUROMANCER is the third Ace
Special in the series edited by Terry Carr, where all the books (so
far) are first novels.  (I've reviewed the previous two Specials
here before: THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson and GREEN EYES
by Lucius Shepard.  Algis Budrys in F&SF thought THE WILD SHORE was
very good (with some qualifications) and went ga-ga over GREEN EYES;
my feelings are similar.  By the way, NEUROMANCER apparently got
very good reviews from Norman Spinrad in IASFM recently.)  For a
first novel, this book is amazingly good.

Now a little plot teaser.  (Those of you who hate to hear anything
about plots, skip this paragraph.) Case used to be a cyberspace
cowboy, someone who could jack into the world of cyberspace and
penetrate corporate defenses to bring back data for whoever could
pay the price.  He crossed his bosses once, though, and they
poisoned him with a mycotoxin which destroys the nerve endings
necessary to be able to jack, leaving him stranded in the world of
'meat'.  Now he is slowly degenerating into drug addiction, petty
crime and suicidal mania in the Japanese city of Chiba, where anyone
with the money can have any kind of surgery done, but Case hasn't
the money to repair himself.  Case cheats the fence he deals with
and the fence sends some hoods to rub Case out, but at the last
possible moment Case is rescued by members of an organization
without a name.  They hold out the possibility of a deal: they will
reconstruct Case's ravaged nervous system if he will agree to go on
an extremely dangerous mission whose object they refuse to divulge.
The course of the mission takes Case to BAMA, the city with the
slang name of Sprawl which covers the old eastern seaboard of the
US, to the warrens of Istanbul, and to the satellite of Freeside
where the rich go to play and occasionally to die.  The climax,
however, is in cyberspace, where Case must penetrate a massively
secure system without being 'flatlined', i.e., avoiding brain death
from over stimulation.  This plus ninja assassins, the Turing police,
punk terrorists, the Rastafarian Space Navy and lots more.

In some ways this book resembles Alfred Bester's THE STARS MY
DESTINATION, especially from the point of view of the incredible
pacing and the violence and the plot fireworks, but there are also a
few similarities in characters.  The descriptive language and
dialogue really grab you with detail; this world comes alive,
detestable as some of it is.  Curiously, this book is hard science
fiction, although it doesn't read like it, and you get the feeling
that the social consequences of the technology that he postulates
have all been carefully worked out (although I have a few nits to
pick, as usual).  NEUROMANCER sort of one-ups TRUE NAMES -- if Vinge
is working on an expanded version of TRUE NAMES, it will be
interesting to see how they compare...

Enjoy,

Donn Seeley   University of Utah CS Dept.   donn@utah-cs.ARPA
[Note the new address!]                     decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 84 10:10:35 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Searching for an old book

Greetings:

 HELP!!!  I am looking for a pointer to an available copy of
"Bullard of the Space Patrol" by Michael Jameson.  One of the
stories in it was reprinted in Brian Aldiss's(?) Galactic Empires
anthology ,and truly peaked my curiosity about the rest.

Much thanks in advance.
alex
<latzko@ru-blue.arpa>
!pegasus!ru-blue!latzko.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 07/06/84 14:54:07 EDT ( FRIDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: New Deryni Novels

Has anyone heard if the first of the new Deryni trilogy, The
Bishop's Heir, is out yet, or if it's not, if it will be soon?

------------------------------

Date: 8-Jul-84 01:43:45-EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
Subject: BUILT worlds

I remember reading a book about a world named Patra-Bannk which was
very much built -- (can someone netmail me the name of that book?
All I remember is the name of the planet and that it was VERY
similar to MISSION OF GRAVITY in plot) -- thin dirt shell on metal,
and a quantum black hole (& metallic-hydrogen factory) inside.

Brandon Allbery
6504 Chestnut Road
Independence, OH 44131

decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!{bsafw,stuart,ubbs}
BITNET: R0176%CSUOHIO (CSU administration permitting)

"himself being one universe's prime example of utter, rambunctious
free will!"  

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 9 Jul 84 8:53:36 EDT
Subject: SF Pronunciation

While on our way to a hamfest Sunday we were discussing the Dune
trailer, and found to considerable amusement that we had four
different ways of pronouncing Aetrides (God, I hope that's spelled
correctly...)  It's a problem that comes up only in discussion,
fortunately, as I reserve the right to choose how I pronounce
nonstandard words.  You'd be surprised how vehemently some people
defend their own way of pronouncing something as The Real Thing.

I also write the stuff, and the second most frequently asked
question (after where you get those crazy ideas) is, of course,
where do you get those crazy names.  My answer is both simple and
honest: I get them from my high school yearbook.  The following
names were classmates in woodshop: Czuchra, Hkrepech, and Labiak.
Bajh was originally Bayh, whom I named after the Governor of
Indiana, and changed only after my sister cautioned me against
offending politicians.  (Who are simultaneously the most vicious and
most powerful people in America.)

Many slavic names sound (and look) amazing alien-like to WASP types.
Not all Polish names end in ski or wicz; my mother's maiden name was
Przybytek (Polish for "chalice") and a personal favorite Polish word
(strur, "rat") will be an Evil Emperor type in a novel I have on the
drawing board.

If your high school class were all WASP types, get yourself a
Chicago phone book.

I forgive people who can't pronounce my story character names quite
readily, as it's a rare person who can pronounce "Duntemann"
correctly without some coaching.

And hell, what's in a name, anyway?

--Jeff Duntemann
duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1984 1445-PDT
Subject: (un)pronounceable names
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

  In a fiction APA I'm in, there was a raging debate about
pronounceable names. Many of the newcomers liked to use names with
apostrophes in strange places, funny double letters, and capital
letters in the middle of the name. The pros seem to dislike this,
saying that the weird names didn't seem alien, only silly. One
person, in fact, predicted a great apostrophe backlash ---
apostrophes would come to epitomize all of the silly SF in the 70's
just like hand blasters and green slimy blobs from Mars are the
essential props of bad 50's SF.

                        Ffttssuu'wwTTssvvee'dd the plaid-killer
                                aka platt@cit-20

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  8 Jul 84 15:08:37 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: "biocontrol" in ST III

Biocontrol as it appears in McIntyre's ST III novelization is a
author's-other-work tie-in with the same concept as it appears in
McIntyre's DREAMSNAKE.

Has anybody ever made a list of all the similar cross-fertilization
James Blish used to do?  And not just between his Star Trek stuff
and other work, but between different universes in his other work?

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 84 13:00:13 PDT
From: Mark Trumpler <trumpler@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: The Last Starfighter (No spoiler)

Just saw the sneak preview...the graphics were good, and the plot
was (as has been printed here) a video game addict's dream, but the
characterizations left something to be desired.  But then, this is
SF, so who cares?

-+- Mark <trumpler@ucla-locus.ARPA>
P.S. Saw it with Conan... now that was a good movie!

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 84 19:45:25 PDT (Sat)
From: Mike Brzustowicz <mab@aids-unix>
Subject: Re: Sigourney Weaver

She also played the "heroine" in a movie called "eye witness".  It
was not nearly a bit part, and I think she did it well.

-Mike
<mab@aids-unix>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 84 21:18:34 pdt
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin)
Subject: silent speed

A neighbor in broadcasting tells me that the real reason silent
movies were slower was because of the hand crank projection system
used to display them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Jul 84 09:15:37 EDT
Subject: Jittlov update
From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@csnet-sh.arpa>

        Mike is no longer going to conventions and showing his films
as he is completely wrapped up in making his first feature-length
film, which is basically "The Making of the Wizard of Speed and
Time", a not-very-fictionalized account of his trials and
tribulations as a filmmaker.  He refuses to give up any artistic
control of a project, and hence hasn't got a snowball's chance in
Hell of making it in Hollywood.  He tries anyway.  This film is his
attempt to establish credibility at full feature length.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Jul 84 09:38 CDT
From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Honors in "Gremlins"

One of the best "honors" to previous films was the casting of Lee
Chan, Charlie's Number One Son (Keye Luke) as the Chinese
Grandfather; this gives us a hint as to where the furry critter came
from ...  either Egypt or Shanghai in 1935.  (Where was Indiana
Jones when Charlie found the mummy with the bullet in it?)

On an unrelated topic, Howard Hughes' 1930 epic Hell's Angels
floated by on cable...  SFX fans may want to look it up for some of
the best build-a-model-and-blow-it-up effects ever done...plus
fantastic (live) flying scenes, Jean Harlow slipping into something
more comfortable, high mellerdrammer and the Red Baron.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 84 14:36:15-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SW I or SW VII?

  If they do make a new Star Wars flick, I hope they do SW I, and
not SW VII.  The history of the Empire and how it came into power
seems, to me, to be more interesting than what happens after the
Empire is completely (???) destroyed (unless they're not telling us
something....).  Any other opinions out there?

Ken Varnum

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 84 12:20:16-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!5863mp11 @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: TARDIS isomorphism

Apparently, this error can be attributed to the fact that each show
is written by a different author. In the Pyramids of Mars, the
doctor told Sutec(sp.) that only he could pilot the tardis, but, as
was pointed out, later in the series, other people have piloted the
tardis. The idea of the isomorphism would also create a bit of a
problem concerning how the doctor appropriated the tardis in the
first place. On several occasions, the tardis has been shown to
possess artificial intelligence, and has acted on its own (in The
Time Monster, the tardis rescued the Doctor when the Master trapped
him in the space-time vortex, it also helped in the second
regeneration of the docotor, when he was too weak to get help) and
perhaps this is what the doctor meant (i.e.  it would have
recognized sutec as an enemy and shut itself down).  In any event,
it seems that this most likely occured because the authors didn't
remember the actions of past shows.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #134
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 84 1217-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #134
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Jul 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:
            Books - Busby & Author's Addresses & Vertex,
            Films - The Last Starfighter (2 msgs) & 
                    Roll Your Own Films (2 msgs) & 
                    "The Company of Wolves" & Jittlov,
            Television - The Day of the Triffids & Man vs. Machine &
                    Doctor Who,
            Miscellaneous - Westercon & T-shirts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 84 16:14:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!esmith @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: F.M. Busby review (non spoiler) - (nf)

7 virgins and a mule, keep it cool, keep it cool.

  F.M. Busby and the Rissa Kerguelen Saga.

  I know that these books were published back in 1977, but they have
been re-released and make excellent reading.  Berkley Publishing has
taken the original two book series and split them into three.  The
books are:
                Young Rissa,
                Rissa and Tregare,
             &  The Long View.

  The books get a little hard to follow becuase of the over
abundance of supporting characters, but other than that they are a
very well written series of books.
  The series starts out with our heroine, age five, on Earth.  The
bad guys kill her parents and put her into legalized slavery,
welfare, from here we follow her through several mishaps and she
escapes in a very innovative way, she kills her way out.  Well so as
not to be a spoiler we follow her adventures as she and her husband,
Tregare, try to take back Earth from the evil hands that made the
galaxy such a rotten place to live.
  Every once and a while the movement drags a litte bit and there's
a quite a few a typo's but nobodys perfect.  All in all the reading
was good and was very well done.
  Although the plot is not very original Busby adds a "realism" to
the Books that can only be comapared with some of Heinlein's works.
My recommendation is that if you like Heinlein, you should like
these books very much, I did.

                           - Eric L. Smith
                             !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 84 0:23:28-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Help put David Brin on the net

>    At the same convention, though, Harlan Ellison lamented his
> mistreatment by "fans" who had somehow gotten his address, and
> sent him all manner of postage due, C.O.D., uninvited GARBAGE.  It
> required the hiring of a full-time secretary at one point, and
> probably cost a novel's worth of time.  For this reason, I'm not
> going to post Mr. Brin's address.

        I don't think Mr. Ellison tries too hard to hide. When I
lived in LA last (2 years ago), his name and phone # were in the
phone book.  I checked this out of curiosity after hearing him make
a similar statement to the one reported above.
        I am in no way defending a**holes who hassle Ellison, just
reporting a fact, so no flames, please.
                                                Kenn Barry

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 1:41:47-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: VERTEX SF Magazine

> Does anyone remember Vertex? I have what I think is a complete set
> of the mag, but I'm not sure. I have all of volume one, all of two
> but number six, and, I think, volume three stoped at number four.
> Can anyone tell me if there was a V2#6 and if there were more than
> four in V3?
>
>                               Mark Pease
>                               ...tektronix!tekig1!markp

Yes, there was a V2#6.          Volume 2 #6     February 1975

No, there were only 4           Volume 3 #1     April 1975
issues in Volume 3.
These last 3 issues were in     Volume 3 #2     June 1975
a tabloid newspaper format      Volume 3 #3     July 1975
instead of a slick magazine.    Volume 3 #4     August 1975

Some references list the last three issues as June, August, and
October, but that's flat wrong. A friend of mine has all three.
They are definitely June, July, and August.

          --- jayembee
                (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my Business">

------------------------------

Date: Sun 8 Jul 84 09:36:59-EDT
From: MDC.MIKE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: ST III and the Last Starfighter

Saw Last Starfighter at a preview last night. Because it never aspired
to be great it managed to be a very good show. It was well done,
nicely balanced, real and believable ( well, almost ). This film will
appeal to a wide audience, and you are almost guaranteed a good time.
I thought I saw a couple of visual puns or in-jokes that I would like
to mention here ( ** Probably not a Spoiler **) :

a) The effects were made using many hours of Cray X-MP supercomputer
   time, and look like well done computer graphics. But one of the
   consoles in the command center bears a strong resemblance to the
   operator console of the CDC 6600, which was Seymour Cray's first
   supercomputer! b) At one point a character says something like "I
am going to try
   to ram-charge it" and then we see him fiddling with something
   that could be a RAM board from a PC of some type....

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 84 14:29:11 PDT (Monday)
From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: The Last Starfighter (correct spelling, credits, etc.)

re: Peter Trei"s msg
        the good guys main planet is called "Rylos" not "Rhyol".
        It is also the California license plate on the back of
Centauri's Star Car. (dont bother trying to get the real CA plate.
That went to the head Tech Director at DP last year (he quit shortly
after I did, neither of us got screen credits for all our sleepless
nights).

        The good guys dont have an "empire". They are the called The
Star League and are fighting the Kodan Empire....The game starts out
with the voice: Greetings Starfighter! You have been recruited by
the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Kodan
Armada....

        The company that did the special effects is Digital
Productions not Digital Effects. DE does commercials and logos but
not feature films.  There isn't really anyone else who is set up to
do computer graphics feature films (Lucasfilms ILM does shorts like
the Genesis Effect but that took an incredibly long time considering
the speed which DP gets wiht the Cray XMP (weeks versus hours))

Personal Notes:

        As a previous employee of Digital Productions, I will be
happy to answer any questions I can that you folks in netland may
have regarding the graphics, etc. Digital Prod. is not on the net
but I still maintain some underground connections with them.

Jerry Isdale
Isdale.es@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 84 13:39:05-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Roll Your Own SF (Edgar Rice Burroughs)

I've been meaning to post this for awhile....

I have recently been reading some of the Edgar Rice Burroughs
Martian stories, and I'd like to see them as movies, *animated by
Ralph Bakshi*.  I think he'd do a great job on some of the martian
creatures, the green men, the plant men, and some of the other
things that keep showing up on Mars.

Any opinions?

Arnold Robbins
CSNET: arnold@gatech
RPA:    arnold%gatech.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
UUCP: { akgua, allegra, ihnp4 }!gatech!arnold

Save the Arithmetic IF!

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 84 10:50:39 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Pettit.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #131
Cc: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA

When I first saw the drawings of Cirocco in Titan, I thought she
looked a lot like Cher, and wondered if Varley had suggested that
the artist model her on Cher in preparation for a possible future
movie. And I agree with Perry that Cher's role in Silkwood had a lot
in common with Cirocco's style, too -- rough, tough, fond of women
and beer, and a loyal friend.

Now who would you pick to play Gaby?  I think that's a harder one.
A very complex personality, and she has to be pretty and short, too.

-- Teri

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 84 00:33:56 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Movie review: "The Company of Wolves"

"The Company of Wolves" is a new British fantasy/sort-of-horror film
which just had its American premier at Filmex (LA Film Exposition)
today.  Princess Anne (you know, the British one) milled about the
lobby and left after the short, as a member of her entourage decided
that it wasn't a suitable film for her to see in public.  Angela
Lansbury, one of the film's stars, also attended and kept a low
profile.  But enough gossip, on to the movie.

"The Company of Wolves" is an extremely stylish fairy tale/dream
film.  An adolescent girl falls asleep and dreams that she is in a
land rather similar to the one in which the more sinister fairy
tales took place.  Her sister is killed by a pack of wolves (she
didn't like her much, anyway).  Her kindly old granny, who lives off
in the woods, far from safety, starts telling her some rather nasty
little stories about wolves, mostly involving werewolves of one sort
or another.  According to Granny, the wolves you really have to
worry about are the ones that are hairy inside, not outside.

               ******Mild spoiler between stars******

The various tales are told as stories within stories, the most
extensive dealing with a woman who thought that wolves had carried
away her first husband on their wedding night.  Well, they had.
Sort of.  Another story concerns a woman wronged by a nobleman who
gets a terrible, lupine revenge on his wedding day.  There's also a
fellow who meets the devil in the forest at midnight.  (The devil,
anachronistically, but stylishly, is chauffeurred around in a white
Rolls Royce.)  Eventually, the girl finds out just why she should
beware of men whose eyebrows meet in the middle, and why it's a bad
idea to stray off the path in the forest.  As the more astute of you
might have guessed, at the core is none other than the story of
Little Red Riding Hood, but the wolf has rather different ideas than
in the original.

                     ******end of spoiler******

The film is really beautiful.  It's all shot in the studio, which
gives it an enchanted forest look.  The photography and art
direction are excellent.  The script cleverly winds together the
various threads, giving a complex picture of sexuality, fear, and
desire.  The direction, by Neil Jordan, is also quite crisp.  There
are a number of fine performances which leaven the film with ironic
humor, particularly from Angela Lansbury, as the Granny overfond of
stories with unpleasant, violent ends.  David Warner, unbelievably
enough, plays not a werewolf or villain, but the straightforward
role of the girl's father.  Sarah Patterson, 13 years old, plays the
girl.  There are some bloody transformations, a little different
than the ones in "American Werewolf in London" and "The Howling",
based on the filmmakers' view that you don't turn into a wolf, you
have the wolf inside you.  They are fairly impressive, as is a
special effects wolf used in some scenes.

There are some gross transformations, but otherwise little explicit
violence, certainly none of the gushing blood kind.  There is a
steady sexual undercurrent, as well, but no nudity or explicit sex.
A good bet for the MPAA's brand new PG-13 rating, should the film
get American distribution.  If it should, I strongly recommend it.
It's different, but very entertaining.
                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1984 09:01-EST
From: David.Anderson@CMU-CS-G.ARPA
Subject: Re: Wizard of Speed & Time

By an incredible stroke of good luck I saw this on "TV's Bloopers
and Practical Jokes" -- you know, the silly show with Ed McMahon and
Dick Clark.  They seem to be showing some of the better shorts as a
regular feature of the show.  If they do this at a predictable point
in the program it's worth tuning in.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 84 14:20:18-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!consult @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV

I saw "Day of the Triffids" on ARTS as well, and everything that
people have been saying about it is true. It was very well done.
However, I have the same problem with this movie as I did with the
book:

What the hell do the Triffids have to do with anything???! As far as
I can tell, this is another (very good)
end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it story. Why the Triffids? There could
have just as easily been cougars running around feeding on the blind
people. The impression is that the author was saying "well, what
about man-eating plants? we have to have some of those in here! put
a few in...no, wait! let's name the book/movie after the plants
to!!"

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to downgrade either the book or the
movie...it's just that the Triffids seemed pretty useless...

(or am I missing some deep, dark philosphical point about man
tampering with nature, etc etc etc ?)

                    -- Rob DeMillo   MACC

          Adric: "...I don't know what this thing is,
                 but it's pointing in your direction..."

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 84 9:16:45-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jkb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Man vs. Machine

     I was watching Showtime the other day and happened to see an
episode of The Paper Chase, the Second Year where the engineering
department pitted their "thinking" computer program against the law
department, and eventually, Professor Kingsfield.  He was soundly
trounced on all of the rote questions involving interpretations of
the law because the computer had a faster access to the law database
and could cite (and use) more references and relevant cases for
substantiation.  When it came down to the final showdown, Kingsfield
posed a hypothetical situation to the computer, which proceeded to
apply more and more of its resources to the problem until it barfed.
     My question is this: Is there such a thing as a machine that
will, without regard to its own life and limb and programming,
consume itself by applying more resources (i.e., CPU power, memory,
etc.)  to solve a particular problem?
     This theme has been shown in quite a few SF movies and shows
(Forbidden Planet and the Star Trek episode with the Mark V
computer, to name two).  It bothers me a little that whenever we see
a version of Man vs. Computer, man always wins because computer
barfs.
     Does anybody out in net.sf.land know of a situation where this
has not happened; that is, where either computer wins and man barfs,
or where computer gives up (note: I don't consider Wargames in this
category)?
                                      Yours until Nomad comes home,
                                          John Barbee

------------------------------

Date: 07/11/84 09:01:09 EDT ( WEDNESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Tardis Isomorphism

Of course, the Doctor may simply have lied to Sutec, or it could be
an adjustment he made to it after he stole it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Jul 84 00:53 EDT
From: Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: WesterCon

I guess news travels slowly in the heat, I still haven't heard how
the site selection voting went.  Anyone care to post the voting
results and perhaps a summary of the business meeting and other con
activities.?

And, assuming San Diego won, can anyone give me a contact, phone or
net, on the committee?

          Thanks,
          Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 84 10:11:52 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Ghostbusters T-shirts Wanted

any leads?

Daniel Dern
(ddern at bbn.arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #135
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 84 1241-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #135
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Jul 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Sun 8 Jul 84 09:36:59-EDT
From: MDC.MIKE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: ST III and the Last Starfighter

Saw ST III. My spouse and I were both amazed at the *incredible* job 
of fine acting by DeForrest Kelly ( Bones ). We both felt it was the 
best ST movie yet, but it seems to me that one has to have seen ST II
to get the most out of it, it can't stand alone. Someday they would
make a great double-feature by running ST II and III back to back.
The book made from ST III is even better than the film. It contains
about twice as many scenes and much more information than the film
does. Don't read the book first, or you will consider the movie to be
skimpy.

------------------------------

Date: 07/09/84 17:19:42 EDT ( MONDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Star Trek III

Here's the result of a Star Trek debate that went on out here where
I am between some people not all on the net:

   Let's talk about Enterprise.  We know many of her particulars,
many others we can guess at.  One of the nice things about all three
ST movies is that, at the very least, the producers et. al. seem to
do their homework; they attempt to be consistent with the already
existent ST world (make that universe).  But a bad mistake surfaced
in STIII: Enterprise is not "twenty years old."  Witness: we know,
from the animated episode "The Counter-Clock Incident," that the
first captain of Enterprise was Robert April.  Although we are not
told for how long he commanded the ship, it is probably safe to
assume somewhere between one and five years.  But, to be absolutely
safe, let us also include the possibility that April was aboard an
even shorter time.  We know, from the animated episode "Time Trap,"
that Enterprise was the first Constellation-size vessel to
incorporate the warp drive.  So let us say that April commanded
Enterprise merely for that mission--test of the warp drive in
Constellation-size ships.  Still, he would be aboard for a week, at
the least.
   Now, we know another--probably the second--captain of Enterprise:
Christopher Pike.  In the episode "The Menagerie," Spock notes,
while watching the tapes (transmissions) that the events are from
"thirteen years ago."  Since we see a bond between Kirk and Spock,
it is evident that they have both been aboard Enterprise for at
least a short time.  But, again to be safe and give a minimum
estimate, let's say that Spock's commandeering of Enterprise took
place at the very end of Kirk's five-year command, and that
Enterprise's first visit to Talos IV took place at the very
beginning of Pike's command.  That means that there was a span of at
least eight years between Pike's first day aboard Enterprise and
Kirk's first day.
   Then, of course, we know that Kirk commanded Enterprise for five
years.  Then, from STTMP, we know that Enterprise was in dry dock,
being refitted, for at least two-and-a-half years.  And from STII,
we know (since Kirk says he hasn't seen Khan in fifteen years) that
at least seven-and-a-half years have taken place between STTMP and
STII.  And, of course, there was no time lag to speak of between
STII and STIII.  So, let's add up our time:
                      Minimum          Maximum
          April:      1 week           5 years (let's assume)
          Pike+:      8 years          13 years
          Kirk:       5 years          5 years
          STTMP:      2.5 years        2.5 years
          STII:       7.5 years        8.5 years
                      ---------        ---------
                      23 years 1 week/ 34 years

   So, it would appear that Enterprise is at least twenty-three
years old.  In that case, it is understandable for somebody to say
she is twenty years old.  More than likely, though, she is
twenty-eight to thirty-four years old.  I don't know; I would like
some clarification in STIV about this point.
   What do you know about naval procedure?  Could you tell me a
little bit (if you know) about decommissioning vessels, and the
renaming procedure for destroyed vessels?  Also, are courts-martial
strictly internal to the service?  That is (assuming that Starfleet
follows naval procedure, for the most part), would Kirk and co. be
tried by the Federation government--hijacking, trespassing,
destruction of government property, etc.--or would the matter be
strictly in Starfleet's hands?  And could a court-martial result in
Kirk staying in the service, with, as you suggested, merely a
demotion in rank?

First of all, the animated episodes are notoriously inaccurate.  I
wouldn't consider anything they say to be very important.  Further,
I don't see what the exact age of the Enterprise has to do with
anything.  If its more than 20 years old, then that's all the more
reason for decommissioning it.  I don't really consider this a very
serious point.

As for Naval customs, etc: Generally, the navy names a new vessel of
a given class after one of that class that's been destroyed (or
something).  Witness how many aircraft carriers have been named
Enterprise (that's the most famous example--there's been at least
half a dozen).  Since StarFleet seems patterned much after Earth
20th Century naval customs, they will probably do something
similar.

Court-martials: If StarFleet follows typical military procedure,
then the courtmartial is an internal affair, which the civilian
courts will never have anything to do with.  Normally, I suppose
Kirk would be thrown out of the service, at best, but for the
following points:

1.  If he hadn't stolen Enterprise, the Klingons would have gotten
    Genesis out of David.  No way he could withstand Klingon
    "interrogation" for long.  Although Genesis was a failure at
    what it was supposed to be, it would have been a deadly weapon
    in Klingon hands, the Organian Peace Treaty not withstanding.

2.  Vulcan is a very powerful member of the Federation.  Implication
    is that it is the co-capital (with Earth).  With Vulcan backing
    him, StarFleet is going to be careful about what they do to
    Kirk, as they won't want to offend the Vulcans.

3.  Kirk is, according to StarFleet command (I forget the name of
    the guy, the one who said that the Enterprise was being
    decommissioned), one of the best men in StarFleet.  Witness, he
    managed to steal a starship, right from under StarFleet's
    collective nose.  Cashiering such a person would be tremendous
    waste of manpower.  As Vulcan will undoubtably point out: "It
    would be highly illogical."

   My point about Enterprise's age is not what I would consider a
serious point, and I was not making in order to defend Enterprise's
being decommissioned; it's just that I would think that Commander
Starfleet would know the Enterprise's age.  It just bugs me, that's
all.

   As for the animateds, yes, they must be taken with a grain of
salt.  Nonetheless, they must be taken in some way, I believe.
After all, it is from "Bem" that we come to know Kirk's middle name
(which is a nice detail, I think).

   You bring up excellent points about Kirk's case.  David surely
would have been subjected to the mind-sifter, which, as you say, he
could not possibly withstand.  In this way of looking at it, Kirk
retrieved Genesis from--or, at least, kept it from being captured
by--the Klingon Empire.

   Also, Vulcan would seem to be a major force in the Federation,
one that probably would be a formidable opposition if it came to
that.  In addition, it would seem certain that Sarek will come to
Kirk's defense, as will T'Pau (I assume) and T'Lar (I also assume).

   And then there is Kirk's record to consider.  Brilliant might be
an understatement.

   All good points, well made.  But it also seems that Kirk is
manipulating Starfleet.  I believe what Kirk has done was moral, and
he was not wrong for disobeying orders.  And most of the times he
has disobeyed orders in the past, he has been shown to have been
right.  But won't Starfleet try to put some kind of restraint on
Kirk?  I mean, sure, he's a great captain and leader, a brilliant
strategist and dedicated explorer.  But he continually disobeys
orders.  A starship out in space, away from Starfleet, must surely
be autonomous in many ways.  But Starfleet certainly can't want to
chance Kirk's usurping his power.

   I guess this calls into question Kirk's integrity and loyalty to
the Federation and Starfleet.  And I guess we need go no further if
that is the case.

   There is one major point to be considered, though.  Kirk was
justified in his actions: Spock is alive.  Because of Kirk.  This
can be part of Kirk's defense, but. . . .

   What will the Federation worlds think of Genesis and its
implications?  It is already a "galactic controversy."  And now a
man has been brought back to life because of it.  That is not what
really happened, but it is what will be thought of those who do not
understand or believe in "Vulcan mysticism."  I mean, what Genesis
really did was clone Spock's body.  It regenerated some of his
cells, and surely those cells must already have been alive.  Spock
died of exposure to radiation, but at least some of his cells would
live for a short time.  And Genesis, in effect, cloned him.  That
is not any big deal.  We almost--any perhaps do--have that
technology now.  The major point, which might be disbelieved or
overlooked by many, is that Spock's consciousness was not
regenerated; it was in McCoy.  How could Genesis regenerate a
consciousness?  David and Carol and the others would had to have
known what constituted a consciousness (in which case Paramount
would have had to make some heavy statements about the nature of
mind and body).  Apparently, creating consciousness is still beyond
23rd century science--which is believable.  My whole point here is,
will Starfleet want to reveal to the masses that Spock is alive?
Surely the news of his death was spread throughout the various
media.  His rebirth, as it were, would be equally publicized.  And
many people might feel Genesis to be immoral, and Spock a part of
that immorality.  I think we have a very interesting dilemma here.

   The dilemma would end with Spock, though.  There is no more
Genesis.  The only living member of the science team that developed
Genesis, it seems, is Carol.  Surely she could rebuild it with her
knowledge; it would take years to redevelop, controversy brewing the
entire time.  And it would take years--Khan found all the Genesis
data erased when he arrived at Regula I.

As for Kirk's loyalty, well I wouldn't worry much about that.  His
record seems to show that he's loyal.  If he weren't he could
probably be ruling the Federation, with the help of some of the
advanced races he's found (the Andromedans, for example).

As for Spock being the subject of controversy.  There are several
ways of dealing with this, the simplest is probably to state
something like the following: As everyone knows, Vulcans have
remarkable regenerative capabilities, and when regenerating, are
often in a trance that simulates death so closely it can fool the
best of medical technology.  Spock really didn't die, and the
Genesis radiation simply aided his recovery.

Not entirely true, I will admit, but close enough, and the people
who know the truth won't talk.  As for everyone else, the majority
of people know about Vulcans only by hearsay (one planet, out of how
many?  Vulcans can't be all that usual a sight), and they'll accept
it at face value.  Some people may suspect that there's something
more, but majority of them will probably be in StarFleet anyway.

Finally, I doubt that the Secretary of the Navy knows the ages of
naval vessels better than to a rough approximation.  Also, the
Enterprise was not the first vessel of its type, the Constitution
was (that's why they're call Constitution Class vessels, not
Enterprise Class vessels), so the age estimate is probably off a bit
there.

   Your point about the age of Enterprise is well-taken.  I concede
my case.  Commander Starfleet Morrow is a busy man, after all.

   Nice try with the Spock story, too.  It should work, and since
Genesis is no longer operational--or even existent--controversy
should subside.

   I do not want Kirk to command Excelsior.  That is just the way I
feel.  I was upset that David was killed, and I think it would have
benefited Star Trek in the long run if his character were to have
survived (even if didn't appear in another episode for half-a-dozen
years).  And I was upset that Spock was brought back, but very happy
about it, too.  And the way they brought him back was at least
consistent with the ST universe.  But the thing that really got to
me was the destruction of the Enterprise.  Now, though, I think it
was a good thing to do, as far as the series goes.  First of all, it
surprised me (I stayed away from all rumors, articles, and
commercials about Trek between STII and STIII).  It almost surprised
me into an early grave.  It was nearly as traumatic an experience as
when Spock "died."  (I knew, for the most part, that Spock would
die, due to the media hype.  Therefore, I wasn't surprised like I
was about Enterprise's destruction.)  But it was an emotional
experience, good drama, and that is what Trek must be in addition to
all of its philosophical ideas.  I hate to see Enterprise die, but
better to die by saving Kirk's and company's lives than to waste
away by being decommissioned and dismantled.

   There can be no Enterprise II--why build another
Constitution-class vessel when there are more modern ships.  And so
there will be no new ship of Enterprise's class.  Kirk commanding
Excelsior?  "These are the voyages of the starship Excelsior. . . ?"
I hate it.  I hated Excelsior when I saw her because, knowing
Enterprise was being decommissioned, it was easy to blame Excelsior
for that.  I hate Excelsior and its captain.  How about a new
Excelsior-class (?) vessel for Kirk?  Not Enterprise II, but. .
.what?  Explorer?  Voyager?  Journeyer?  Venture?  Just some ideas.
Nothing, I fear, can replace the name Enterprise.  (Discovery is
another idea, but Arthur C. Clarke might have something to say about
that.)

I'd have to check on the details of the renaming conventions, but I
suspect that even if its an Excelsior Class vessel, it'll be named
Enterprise.  This is chiefly based on the fact that there's always
been an Aircraft carrier named Enterprise, and aircraft carriers
have changed an awful lot since they started out.  The point is that
the Enterprise was a heavy cruiser.

------------------------------

Date: 09 Jul 84 18:24:07 PDT (Mon)
Subject: Re: STIII: Excelsior
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

    Several people have pointed out that New York is the Empire
State; perhaps "Excelsior" is merely on the seal.  I have the Oxford
Universal Dictionary's word for it that it's in there somewhere.
(Though "Excelsior State Building" does have rather a ring to it,
no?)

    However, the point was not geography, but the naming of a ship,
for which "Excelsior", in its Latin meaning, seems quite
appropriate.

    Although I'm glad people are alert to inaccuracies, I hope that
this is the last I will ever see on this subject.  If anything was
ever done to death, this has been.

    On a subject I prefer: does anybody know why this new warp
effect has been used in the last two movies (the one in which the
ship simply accelerates, and leaves behind a trial of multihued
images of itself)?  I thought the star-streaking effect of the first
movie much more effective, and rather more likely (as far as any of
this can be called "likely").  It certainly gave a better impression
of the sort of speeds the ship would attain with warp drive.

                                A. Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #136
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 84 1211-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 12 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:
           Books - Chalker & Constructed Worlds (3 msgs),
           Films - Roll Your Own Films & The Last Starfighter,
           Television - The Day of the Triffids,
           Miscellaneous - WesterCon & Cons in the South & 
                   Man vs Machine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 84 11:44:58 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker review (still non-spoiler)
From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@XEROX.ARPA>

I'm one of those people who don't really care for Chalker, and River
of the Dancing Gods (RotDG) is a typical reason why.  In my opinion,
he tends to come up with extremely interesting settings upon which
he stages extremely poor stories.  The Well World series is another
example -- the very idea of the Well World is fascinating, and the
setting should lend itself to all sorts of interesting stuff.  But I
found Midnight at the Well of Souls to be too shallow and choppy.
(And I'm speaking as one who PREFERS relatively shallow stories; I
find most of Gene Wolfe too deep.)

RotDG has only one thing going for it, and that's the "set of rules"
that govern the magical world.  After all, there are godzillions of
stories about worlds where magic works, and a heckuvalot of them
deal with people from our world going to such places.  The set of
rules, however, set the story up to be a satire of all those other
stories, because the rules purport to be the basis of virtually all
of the cliches we know and love.  ("Weather and climate permitting,
all beautiful young maidens shall be scantily clad.")  Some of the
rules quoted in the course of the novel even poke fun at fairly
specific other novels, such as Lord of the Rings.  But there's not
enough of it to make RotDG satisfying as a satire (I'm not convinced
that satire alone can possibly support an entire novel), and as a
story it's mediocre at best.  The characterisations, which should be
extremely full since they should contrast the cliches against more
normal aspects, range from absurd to absent.  The plot itself is
average, with only a few surprises, and some deus ex machina for
good measure.  And the surprises were typically where Chalker
stepped away from the satire, whereas it would have fit better had
he found ways to dust off old cliches and use them where we didn't
expect them.  That is, my reaction to his twists was usually "Well,
that's different" and it should have been "Of course! I should have
known!"

As the previous review (by Eric Smith) notes, the novel cries out
for a sequel.  (I don't want to create a spoiler by describing the
ending.)  Eric found this a plus.  I thought it was a cheap trick
and found the ending unsatisfying, but then I was bored by the whole
novel and was certainly not interested in a sequel.  Chalker seems
to like producing series.  Besides the mediocre Well World and
mediocre Dancing Gods series, he's got another one (Four Lords of
the Diamond) that I've been told is utterly worthless and have never
bothered to read.

The one book by Chalker that I've actually enjoyed all the way
through was "And the Devil Will Drag You Under".  Though it'll never
be a classic, it was at least a good read.  And it has two features
that set it apart from the other Chalker I've read or heard about:
(1) It not only has an interesting idea as its basis, he spends some
time taking advantage of the idea to generate interesting situations
and resolutions.  (2) To my knowledge it has never had a sequel.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 11 Jul 84 14:33:07 EDT
Subject: Constructed Worlds

Lordy, it was such an awful book I had plum forgotten it...

Patra-Bannk was the hollow planet from THE WORLD IS ROUND by (I
think; book's at home) Tony Rothman, who is the son of another
Rothman who occasionally writes SF.  (First name escapes me right
now.)

THE WORLD IS ROUND was a sad example of a book containing a
well-worked out technological concept and entirely too much filler.
Patra-Bannk was a titanic shell surrounding a black hole, rotating
very slowly as it revolved about its star.  The combination of slow
rotation and period of revolution made for some very bizarre
seasons, alternately hideously cold and killingly hot.  End of
interesting stuff.

What remains is silliness overlaid upon silliness, loose ends
galore, and an ending which left one most thoroughly disappointed.
This might have been something as novel as Ringworld, had the author
taken the time to concoct something clever to happen on or inside
the planet.  Instead there is a stupid war among stupid humanoids
and no identifiable motivation for any of it.

The best parts of this book were the cover painting, the essay on
the seasonal dynamics of Patra-Bannk, and the name of one (minor)
character: Paddleack.  The rest, after a year or two, has simply
faded into the mud.  Skip it.

PS: Do remind me of any other Constructed World stories you are
familiar with...

--Jeff Duntemann
  The Carbon Filament Rat
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 02:33:40-EDT
From: Jacob.Butcher@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Petra-Bank

Or whatever. The constructed world with the black hole in the
center.  The book it appeared in was called "The World is Round",
and might have been by a Tony something.

I don't remember the details of the book or anything, but I believe
there were some type of constructed worlds in Macrolife by George
Zebrowski(?).
                                Jacob Butcher
                                 jacob@cmu-cs-c.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 04:39:34-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: BUILT worlds

> From:  decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
> I remember reading a book about a world named Patra-Bannk which
> was very much built -- (can someone netmail me the name of that
> book?  All I remember is the name of the planet and that it was
> VERY similar to MISSION OF GRAVITY in plot) -- thin dirt shell on
> metal, and a quantum black hole (& metallic-hydrogen factory)
> inside.

The book you're thinking of is THE WORLD IS ROUND by Tony Rothman,
published by Ballantine/Del Rey about 5-6 years ago, if memory
serves.

Another book about articial worlds is ORBITSVILLE, by Bob Shaw,
which is about a Dyson Sphere. A terrible book, though (I read the
serial in GALAXY -- or was it WORLDS OF IF? I'll have to check).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
                !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 84 20:40:36 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: bakshi and burroughs

I, for one, would much prefer that Bakshi didn't even know about
Burrough's Mars books, unless, of course, he was willing to put up
several miilion dollars of bond money to guarantee that he *fully*
animated it, rather than taking the shabby shortcuts he's so fond
of.  Rotoscoping, tinting old film footage, and skimping on the
backgrounds are not my idea of good animation.  Personally, what
with the improvements made with models and puppets, I'd much prefer
to see these books done as live action, since no one will shell out
the money to animate them well.
                                                Peter Reiher
                                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 12-Jul-84 01:45 PDT
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems Div. - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: THE LAST STARFIGHTER (COMPUTER GRAPHICS WORLD July 1984)
To: works@rutgers.arpa

Scene on the cover article on page 62. The following is copied
wthout permission.

   3-D Images for the Film Industry

   Behind Digital Productions' Closely-Guarded Doors

   By W. Mike Tyler

   The largest producer of computer-generated 3-D images, in terms
   of sheer volume, is located in an obscure section of Los Angeles.
   One might not even notice Digital Productions' presence if it
   were not for a huge water cooling tower, or the extra power lines
   coming from a nearby utility pole.

   John Whitney, Jr. and Gary Demos founded Digital Productions in
   1982.  Together, they developed a process known as Digital
   Science Simulation(tm) for creating totally computer-generated
   images for the film industry.  This month, the firm will add
   motion pictures to its list of TV commercial accomplishments when
   Lorimar Productions releases THE LAST STARFIGHTER, a full-length
   feature film containing 21 minutes of computer-generated images.

   Behind Digital Production's closely-guarded doors is the most
   sophisticated hardware and software ever assembled for the sole
   purpose of creating computer-generated imagery and simulation.
   The facility is capable of producing 12 minutes of film per
   month, where the average frame complexity is 250,000 polygons.
   At 24 frames/second, that is 17,280 individual images (4.3
   trillion polygons).

   To accommodate this intensive computational load, Digital
   Productions has acquired a Cray X-MP computer (hence the need for
   the cooling tower which extracts heat from liquid freon
   circulating through the Cray's PC cards).

   In addition to the Cray X-MP, Digital Productions has a full
   array of data entry, encoding, and movie previewing workstations.
   Ramtek RM9460 imaging/graphics display systems give technical
   directors the ability to view fully rendered images before they
   are committed to film.  The amount of data that can be displayed
   is 1280 x 1024 pixels x 24 bits per pixel, or approximately 4
   mega-bytes per frame.  Interfacing to the Cray X-MP via a DEC VAX
   11/782, these previewing stations provide immediate feedback and
   allow the technical directors to experiment with a variety of
   different display attributes.  The hardware also includes a 2560
   x 2048-pixel by 10-bit/color film recorder and a high-speed
   custom interface to the Cray IOP.  Both were designed and built
   be Ramtek.

   From a systems perspective, Digital Productions' designers are
   interacting with a graphic database--representing 3-D shaded
   solid objects, something common to many CAD system designers.
   However, the scope and scale of their system sharply departs from
   your everyday CAD operation.  This has to do with the special
   requirements involved in the production on images for film.  Most
   significant is the need for raw computational speed.

   Quality film production work for a single 35mm frame requires a
   film recorder resolution of 3000 x 4000 pixels and 10 bits for
   each color.  At 10 floating-point calculations per color, per
   pixel, it would take 8.64 billion calculations to produce one
   second of film (3000 x 4000 pixels x 3 colors 24 frames/sec. x 10
   calculations/color pixel).

   In creating realistic computer-simulation scenes, lighting and
   rendering algorithms require one to 10,000 calculations per
   color.  Thus, anywhere from 864 million to 8.64 trillion
   calculations are needed to produce one second of animation.  The
   Cray, at 200 million floating-point instructions per second,
   takes anywhere from three seconds to 10 hours to generate one
   second of film.
    Since adjacent frames contain common image features, programming
   shortcuts exist for reducing the overall number of calculations.
   Large-format 70mm movie film resolution (4600 x 6000 pixels/frame
   x 30 bits/pixel, or approximately 100 Mbytes of data) ups the
   computational requirements even further.

   How economical is all this?  In the case of THE LAST STARFIGHTER
   production costs were significantly lower than filming scale
   models of the Armada ships and performing post-processing to make
   them look real.  When comparing industry firsts, THE LAST
   STARFIGHTER includes over twice the amount of simulation that
   appeared in STAR WARS, and was produced in approximately one
   third the time, at about one quarter the cost.

   CONCLUSION

   There are fundamental parallels between Digital Productions'
   supercomputer environment for film-making and high-performance
   systems for mechanical CAD design or engineering simulation.  All
   have a common purpose: design productivity.  Each has its own
   intensive computation burden.

   But not everyone can afford access to a Cray-class computer.
   However, these application needs have spawned a new generation of
   graphics peripherals with special-purpose computation
   accelerators to tackle the dynamic display of complex 3-D solid
   objects.  Ramtek's new 2020 products fall into this category.
   The major improvement brought by this class of device is the 3-D
   design takes that formerly took anywhere from tens of minutes to
   hours can now be done in seconds.

Mike Tyler is manager of the product management group at Ramtek
Corp.  Prior to this, he was employed by Computer Science Corp.  Mr.
Tyler graduated with a B.S. in Computer Science from the University
of Maryland.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 84 22:31:48-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.ags @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV

>  What the hell do the Triffids have to do with anything???! As far
>  as I can tell, this is another (very good)
>  end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it story. Why the Triffids? There
>  could have just as easily been cougars running around feeding on
>  the blind people.

There was, of course, the interesting point that the humans began by
domesticating the triffids (raising them on farms), after which the
triffids returned the favor...

Dave Seaman                     "My hovercraft is full of eels."
..!pur-ee!pucc-i:ags

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1984 2127-PDT
Subject: westercon voting
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

  The final vote was
    147 San Diego
    100 Phoenix
    13  None of the above
    4   Nome of the above (not a misspelling)
    2   Vandenberg Air Force Base

and one other vote for someplace obscure. Anyway, San Diego won. I
don't believe anyone on the ConCom is on ARPAnet. Looks like you
have to use the US Snail (I don't have the address)

                                          john

------------------------------

Date: 07/12/84 09:08:11 EDT ( THURSDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: from someone off the net

                        I would like to know if anybody has any
information on a Southern Trek con, or an sf con.  By Southern, I
mean North Carolina, South Carolina, and even Georgia.  I would
appreciate it if I could get some info about such cons that would be
held in or after August.
   Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 07/12/84 07:53:45 EDT ( THURSDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Man vs. Machine

Sure, in the movie (and books) Colossus: The Forbin Project the
computer wins in a BIG way (it takes over the world).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #137
Date: 13 Jul 84 1238-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #137
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jul 84 1238-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #137
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 13 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:

      Art - Queens/ASF cover,
      Books - Brunner & Gibson & Godwin & Zelazney & Cthulhu,
      Films - Roll Your Own & Who Are Those Guys & 
              The Last Starfighter & Movies in General & 
              Andrei Tarkovsky,
      Television - The Day of the Triffids & Dr. Who,
      Miscellaneous - T-Shirts & Man vs Machine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 84 17:24:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Queens/ASF cover - (nf)

In _Frank Kelly Freas, The Art of Science Fiction_, the ASF cover
queen used is listed as for:

        _The Gulf Between_, by Tom Goodwin, Oct 53 ASF.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 84 12:09 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Brunner

I just finished Brunner's "Crucible of Time" and came away slightly
disappointed. Brunner seemed to miss the mark with this one. The
real puzzling aspect is I cannot figure out exactly why. Brunner is
probably the best master of the large epic fiction. This book set
out to be a multi-generation story of an alien society and the
aberrations its science and culture go through because of more
severe ice-ages than ours (it goes through dustier sections of the
spiral arms of the galaxy).

Ok, so all the components are there for an epic written on the large
scale, (ala Stand on Zanzibar, Sheep Look Up, Shockwave Rider, etc.)
Part of what fails seems to the be the science itself that the
characters discover - it is boring. Anyone who has studied any of
the history of science realized that the characters that went into
its making were far more colorful than Brunner's characters, but
still, the characters in SR and SoZ, were pretty dull too, Brunner
is not good at characterization.

Its really got me puzzled as to where this story is lacking, Just
like I can't figure out the different path Herbert should have gone
with DUNE after the first hundred pages. (the first hundred pages
had the making of a classic epic story, the rest went rapidly
down-hill as the interesting personalities were killed or underwent
radical personality changes).

How about a contest: Send in your suggestions for how you would
revamp and recast novels that you enjoyed to the 1/2-way point, but
then you felt the author made a major mistake and killed the wrong
person or some other technical flaw.

I can identify a couple of candidates:

Zelazny: Throw away the first and last chapters of (ieeeeee!, I have
         forgotten the name of the novel that was based on the Hindu
         pantheon)

Herbert: Don't kill Duke Atreides in Dune, don't change Paul's
         persona
                                                - Steve Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 14:44:45-PDT
From: dantonio%vlnvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Neuromancer

        I have read the reviews/spoilers on Neuromancer by William
Gibson and they sounded suspiciously like a short story I had read
so I did some research and turned up the following:

William Gibson wrote a short story called "Burning Chrome" in the
July '82 issue of Omni Magazine (the one with the eye-ball and
person doing a back flip on the cover). It too featured a somewhat
less than honest person "jacking into cyberspace" for fun and profit
(mostly the later!). There was also a place called Chiba City where
many people went in hopes of becoming simstim (simulated
stimulation) stars, but it was a minor aspect of the story.

        It was enjoyable and I have reread it many times. If this is
anything like Neuromancer, then I will look forward to getting a
copy...

Beware the black ice!

DDA

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1984 1717-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: defense of "The Cold Equations"

Let me put in a word in favor of "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.
Most SF stories are relentlessly optimistic.  Given enough smarts,
SFers believe that they can get around any difficulty, solve any
problem.  The whole point of "The Cold Equations" is that some
problems cannot be solved.  There is no way that both the pilot and
the stowaway can both land safely.  There is no way that the
stowaway can land the shuttle.  Therefore she has to go out the
airlock.

Jeff Duntemann calls this an "idiot plot", a plot that only works if
everyone involved is an idiot. "Why not unbolt a chair and throw it
out?", he suggests.  Well, the shuttle already had to be stripped
down to make it possible for it to land at all.  The fifty extra
kilos of a stowaway was outside of its safety margin. The idea was
to set up a situation that even can-do engineers would admit was
hopeless.  The parameters of the situation could be changed to make
it even worse. The point is that these situations exist, that
sometimes there is nothing you can do.  This is a true but
unpleasant moral, which is why "The Cold Equations" is a good story.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 23:21:31-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Wombat Science Fiction

@i(Doorways in the Sand) by Roger Zelazny features an alien
plainclothesman disguised as a wombat.  There is also another alien
disguised as a kangaroo.  Fun book - humorous new wave style.

                                wz

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1984 15:19:34-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Response to Cthulhu Mythos request.
Cc: JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE

     Here's a story which relates to the Cthulhu Mythos, and which I
think may be somewhat obscure:

          "Some Notes Concerning a Green Box"

by Alan Dean Foster (believe it or not). The story appeared in
Foster's anthology:

          "With Friends Like These..."

published in paper by Del Rey. The book went into its fourth
printing in October of '83, so copies can probably still be found
floating around. The story originally appeared in The Arkham
Collector, summer '71, and is not at all a bad tale, considering
that it was Foster's first sale.
     Good luck in the search for more....


                      --- Jeff Rogers
                      ARPA: jcr@MITRE-BEDFORD

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 11:35 PDT (Thursday)
From: Hallgren.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #134

In response to Arnold Robbins " Roll Your Own SF (Edgar Rice
Burroughs) ", I also greatly enjoyed the ERB Martian series.  I'm
not sure about Bakshi, unless he followed the style of those great
covers on the ACE paperbacks.  They really had atmosphere!

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 84 8:52:48-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Who are those guys?

Does the addition of "Those guys are GOOD!" ring any bells?

Both are from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

Interestingly (and irrelevantly), the script for that film was
written by William Goldman, who also "adapted" The Princess Bride,
an absolutely marvelous fantasy novel that anybody who likes fantasy
the least little bit has GOT to read.

                        -- David Dyer-Bennet
                        -- ...decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 84 0:47:00-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: The Last Starfighter, ramblings upon - (nf)

Micro Review: Oooh. Aaah.

Mini Review: A Star Wars clone, except they did a better job. See
it.

Review: ****** Begin Spoiler ********* (unless you've seen the
commercial!)

_The Last Starfighter_ is yet another of the space opera stories to
follow in the (very large) footsteps of SW. However, they have a
couple of extra years of fx experience and a CRAY XMP (listed in the
credits, btw) to work with. The animation is - well, the bad parts
are excellent. The stargun liftoff scenes alone are worth the price
of admission. Atari will be marketing an arcade game under the title
"Starfighter", presumably the game seen in the movie, and presumably
using graphics sequences from the movie.  Making sure they get the
most from their computing dollar, I guess.

Like SW & Tron, this movie is more light show than movie. The plot
line & character development may have a little more than SW; meaning
none to speak of. Like those two movies, it's fun. They stole
everybody's favorite plot line: "Young unknown comes from someplace
in the boonies to save the Universe/World/Country/Empire" (I assume
that it's everybody's favorite based on the number of times it's
been used! :-) and made it a vehicle to carry their effects, along
with lots of high-speed action.  They played the movie light, with
some good (and unexpected!) humor. The result works well.

One nice additional touch were the "in joke" references to sf
classics. I caught scenes either stolen from or referring to: _Star
Wars_ (of course) both IV & V, and probably VI; _The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress_ ("We're going to throw *what* at them, Mike?"); _Dr.
Strangelove_; The Lensman series; The Skylark series, and the Arthur
legend. There are probably more.

Summary: If you liked SW and Tron, you'll like this. If you like
computer animation, you'll like it. If you like heavy plots with
good, solid 3d characters, you'll be disappointed.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 84 8:44:00-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movies in general - (nf)

>If were lucky, and if SF is lucky, the Trek adventure WILL continue
>for at least one more good movie.

So, counting that one and the one after that, that would be a total
of two good movies, right? The first one was awful. The second one
was a good ST episode, meaning it was good for SF done by Hollywood.
The third one was laughable - right up there with "The Creature of
Crater Lake," only with better effects.

>Its just about the only thing that keeps SF alive in hollywood, or
>gives it so much as a thread of credibility.

Since when is SF alive in Hollywood? Let's see, lately we've had
some *bad* fantasy (Conan & company), a *good* horror film (Alien)
and some excellent humor (Galaxina, Ghostbusters) that were at best
tolerable SF, and one movie (Bladerunner) that was good SF but a
mediocre movie.

Star Wars was all right, but the plot line occasionally got in the
way of the movie. At first, they didn't have any pretensions: it was
Space Opera, pure and simple. It was even good Space Opera, though
it was lousy SF.  The second one tried to do character development,
and it sorta fell apart.  Some day, I'm going to see the third one.

Next, we have _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_, uh, excuse me, that's
The Last Starfighter. It looks like it could be as good as the first
SW movie, *if* they can avoid trying to make it something it isn't.
It will still be a good movie that's lousy SF, though. I'll give a
full report on it after I see it.

>Star Trek forever

Probably. Undead are hard to kill.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 84 00:20:36 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: a defection

Andrei Tarkovsky, the Soviet director of "Stalker" and "Solaris",
both science fiction films, as well as several other non-science
fiction films, defected from Russia yesterday.  He sited the usual
"artistic freedom" reasons.  He apparently was especially annoyed
that the Russian government had allowed him to make only 6 films in
over twenty years.  He has not yet decided where he will live, but
America seems unlikely.  Anyone who has seen "Stalker" can attest to
the fact that he does not make typical Hollywood films.  His last
film was made in Italy, so he'll probably wind up there.  Tarkovsky
is considered by many to be the finest living Russian director, but
he was never in much favor with his government.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri 13 Jul 84 08:38:39-PDT
From: Chris Stuart <STUART@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV

>  What the hell do the Triffids have to do with anything???! As far
>  as I can tell, this is another (very good)
>  end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it story. Why the Triffids? There
>  could have just as easily been cougars running around feeding on
>  the blind people.

Early in the book, the comment is made that the real advantage
people have over triffids is that people can see. Then we all become
blind...  I presume the author wanted a set of bad guys that were
blind already, and earthworms didn't fit the bill.

                Chris Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 84 13:46:09-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!5863mp11 @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: TARDIS isomorphism

If you think about it, since Sutekh was so very powerful (able to
destroy planets, etc.) and since he was able to quite readily
control the Doctor, it is logical to conclude that he must be able
to read the doctors mind (how else could he, controlling the doctor,
pilot the tardis?). Therefore, one is able to assume that Sutekh
would have known it was a bluff and wouldn't have gone to all the
trouble of taking over the good doctor, and instead would have used
him for a bit of amusement while what's his name (the archeologist)
took the tardis and went to the pyramids. Of course, this is just my
opinion, others are intitled to theirs (incorrect though they may
be)

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 12 Jul 84 16:02:36 EDT
Subject: Ghostbusters T-shirts
To: ddern@BBN-UNIX.ARPA

As of 7/12/84, every major T-shirt place in Rochester New York had
plenty of Ghostbusters T-shirts.  Call around.

--73--

Jeff Duntemann

"If there's somethin' weird in your FCB,
  Who ya gonna call?  BUGBUSTERS!
 If your BIOS croaks on a CTRL-Z,
  Who ya gonna call?  BUGBUSTERS!"

(I ain't fraid of no crocks...)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1984 0932-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Man vs. Machine

   >>Sure, in the movie (and books) Colossus: The Forbin Project the
   >>computer wins in a BIG way (it takes over the world).

 If you read the next book "The Fall of Colossus" you find out that
with the help of 'alien' intelligence's a simple input problem is
enough to cause the new even better Colossus (talked about in the
first book) is brought to it's knees because it's input backs up to
an uncatchable level.

Of course in the 3rd book "Colossus and the Crab" it all works
itself out.  Read the books they are very much different from the
movie. Also keep in mind that they were written in the 50's or 60's
so don't expect to much from them.

 Another Man vs. Machine book is "The Adolesance of P1" in this book
an IBM 360/30 of all machinces develops an Artifical Intelligence
and begins doing some different things

 Also there is Hogan's "Two Faces of Tomorrow" where the men make a
super computerized intelligence and then attack it to make sure that
they can shut it off... This is an excellent book...

 oh well more later

                Warren Sander  (Sander at DEC-MARLBORO)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #138
Date: 16 Jul 84 1127-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #138
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 84 1127-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #138
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:
            Books - Dick & Constructed Worlds (4 msgs) &
                    Book Request Answered &
                    "The Sword of Allah",
            Films - Digital Productions & Movies in General &
                    The Last Starfighter & "Legend" & Star Wars,
            Television - Dr Who & Outer Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 17:46:11-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Philip K. Dick: In His Own Words - (nf)

Philip K. Dick: In His Own Words
by Gregg Rickman
with an Introduction by Roger Zelazny
$9.95, paperback, 256 pages

Published by
Fragments West/The Valentine Press
3908 East 4th Street
Long Beach, CA 90814

This book is based largely on interviews with Dick during the last
year or so of his life.  It is the first of a projected three
volumes.  This book is a must for anyone interested in the life and
works of PKD; it is obviously a labor of love.  I have no connection
to any of this except as a fan of Dick's writing.

Paul Perkins
...{uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!paul
...decvax!yale-co!ima!ism780!paul
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 17:49:16-PDT
From: Per Bothner <BOTHNER@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Constructed worlds: Orbitsville

I don't think anyone has mentioned a pair of books by Bob Shaw, an
Irish author popular in British fandom. (Back in the 50-ies he wrote
with Walt Willis the classic fannish allegory "The Enchanted
Duplicator".) Shaw is also famous for the "Slow Glass" series, and
is a very funny speaker.
   The original book, "Orbitsville," came out around the same time
as Niven's "Ringworld," and so didn't get much notice in the states,
but in many ways it's a superior story. Orbitsville goes all the
way: it tells about the discovery of a Dyson sphere. The political
and personal interactions are also interesting, what with Earth
effectively ruled by an autocratic woman named Elizabeth, and the
protagonist having to flee her wrath. Strongly recommended.
   I don't know if the book is in print in American paperback, but
it should be available from Britain. Recently, a sequel has come
out, which I haven't seen.
        --Per Bothner

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1984 2007-EDT
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: constructed worlds

Here are all the constructed worlds that I can think of, including
the ones that have been mentioned already:

"Ringworld" and "The Ringworld Engineers" by Larry Niven - The
    classic example.  There is some planet-shuffling in "The World
    Out of Time" as well, but no planet construction.

"Orbitsville" by Bob Shaw - Dyson sphere with Earth-like condtions
    inside (well, Earth-like except that the sun never sets).  I
    think there's a sequel out now.

"The World is Round" by Tony Rothman - Jupiter-sized hollow planet
    whose main reason for existence seems to be to make it tough for
    the people on it to realize they are living on a sphere.  They
    go ahead and prove it anyhow, using the same techniques we did.

"Wall Around a Star" by Jack Williamson and Fred Pohl -
    Extra-galactic star-size planet attacks the Milky Way.  "The
    Farthest Star" also has the same premise.

"Strata" by Terry Pratchet - People find Earth-moving machinery left
    over from an alien civilization and start to roll their own.

"Cageworld" by Colin Kapp - Four volumes in this series are out now.
    Giant computer builds shells around the Sun to provide more
    living room.  The old planets (the "cageworlds") sit in gaps in
    the shell like ball bearings in a race.  Kind of glosses over
    where all the material comes from.

"Starmaker" by Olaf Stapledon - A history of intelligent life in the
    universe, with lots of macro-engineering towards the end, eg
    hollowing out crusts of dead stars.

"Titan","Wizard", and "Demon" by John Varley - Creatures a hundred
    kilometers across with habitable conditions inside and eccentric
    masters.

"Maker of Universes" by Philip Jose Farmer - Humanoid aliens make
    pocket universes as playgrounds.  Earth is one of them.  There
    are several books in this series, but this was the only title I
    could remember.  "Riverworld" only counts as terraforming (not
    that digging a million mile long river is easy), not as real
    planet construction.

And finally let me mention "The New Cosmogony", a short story by
Stanislaw Lem (collected in "A Perfect Vacuum").  The trouble with
all this cosmic engineering is that we don't see it taking place.
Surely if re-arranging stars were possible, some alien race would
already be out there doing it.  Lem's answer is that the early
civilizations have gone beyond that; instead of manipulating crude
matter they work with the stuff of physical law itself.  Anomalies
like quasars are past mistakes.  Asymmetries like the spins of muon
emission are problems that are not yet worked out.  The theory would
be proved if we saw these wrinkles being ironed out.  And why aren't
there any intermediate level civilizations?  Because the big boys
don't want anyone else to play.  It's time to start shielding our TV
broadcasts.

/jlr

------------------------------

Date: 13-Jul-84 12:39:55-EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
Subject: Re: Patra-Bannk and Constructed worlds

        I like to hang on ideas.  It's the only way to survive that
portion of SF that is covered by Sturgeon's Law (the percentage is
closer to 99% around here, though).
        Other constructed worlds: The best I have yet read of is
Ringworld; unfortunately, the local modified Law keeps me from
seeing many others -- or is it that SF authors don't write many of
them?  If so, it's a pity -- lots of GOOD ideas, and rarely are they
treated with the mastery needed.  (Niven, yes, but he enjoys weird
settings; did I hear that his latest has people living in a cloud in
space?!)
        Does anyone have any good constructed-world ideas they'd
either like to see written about, or RE-written about by someone who
knows what he's doing?

                Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw
                  6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131

"himself being one universe's prime example of utter, rambunctious
free will!"  

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 9:26:46-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Constructed as in BUILT, guys...

Farmer did another series of 5 (short) books, collectivly called
"The Tierworld Series" (or some slight variant on that).  Worlds in
this universe are quite definitely constructed.  It is a little like
Riverworld, but not so pretentious.  I think they are the best books
he has done (but then, I don't care much for most of Farmer's work).

There is, of course, The Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy...

                Cliff Shaffer
                ...!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 14:36:51-PDT
From: dantonio%vlnvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Book Request

In answer to the request for the name and author of a book in which
colonizers come to a planet with brain parasites, I believe this
book(s) the person had in mind:

Wayfarer Trilogy by Dennis Schmidt:

Way-farer published 1978 by Ace Books (Portions appeared in somewhat
                                        different form in Oct '76
                                        and May '77 Galaxy)

Kensho published 1979 by Ace Books

Satori published 1981 by Ace Books

        I liked this trilogy (each book can be read seperately,
especially Way-farer) even with my limited knowledge of Zen. There
is a lot of sword by not much sorcery and some Zen Koans make it
into the text. Hope this helps...

DDA

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 9:11:30-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: The Sword of Allah - BAD

I know the rest of you are too smart to buy "disaster SF", but I
know one of the authors so I bought:

     The Sword of Allah by "Richard Elliot"
(actually Portland, Oregon "SF Review" editor Richard Geis and Salem,
 Oregon author Elton Elliott)

Mini-Review:
Something this awful has to be intentional.

Review: (Please Laugh - justify my typing this in)

The characters in this turkey are the Pedophilic Evil Scientist, the
Heroic CIA Agent, the Evil Financiers, the Deluded Sister of Radical
Survivalist, and the Woman Vice President.  Pedophilic Evil
Scientist (hereafter PES) builds Immensely Powerful Space Plasma
Beam Weapon to help Fanatic Arab Dictator (backed by the EFs) rule
world.  PES secretly points IPSPBW at Sun, causing Sun to go crazy.
H-CIA-A singlehandedly invades, gets captured, gets loose, destroys
command center.  But the laser causes Sun to emit one hour burst of
intense microwaves, roasting the Eastern Hemisphere (and PES).
H-CIA-A returns to US to help WVP establish martial law and protect
US from black market depredations of EFs.

Meanwhile, the DSRS (remember her?) stumbles on a Secret Underground
Control Center (SUCC?) in the southern Oregon mountains.  She nearly
gets killed by the guards, but is hospitalized by the benevolent
government and given money to stay quiet.  Ungrateful DSRS leaves
and goes to Radical Survivalist Brother, who leads capture of SUCC.
WVP is now WP, who has drafted entire country, and taken over the
economy, so that we can survive aftermath of Eastern Hemisphere
Roasting, such as the high winds INTO the heated area (at all
altitudes!).  WP escapes Washington, and neads SUCC to continue
controlling country.  H-CIA-A single-handedly captures SUCC.

What Can We Learn From This Book?
1)  Watch out for Pedophiles (They may be Evil Scientists!).
2) Watch out for Evil Financiers (who fund Pedophilic Evil
   Scientists).
3) The universe will go out of control at the drop of a
   technological hat.
4)  CIA agents are Heroic and Good.
5)  Microwaves penetrate thick metal, but take minutes to do so.
6)  Air contracts when it heats.
7)  People go crazy in disasters.
8)  Totalitarian control is the only way to survive major disasters.

That's most of the jokes.  The writing was average pot boiler.
Worth speed reading if you're in a cynical mood and get the book
free.  Probably will be a major bestseller.

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 84 14:18:21 PDT
From: so.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Digital Productions

Question: How does a start-up company like Digital Productions
acquire a Cray X-MP?  Are they buying time on it?  Or, are they
leasing it?  Or what?

~ Bosco ~

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 5:28:16-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!elsie!imsvax!rcc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movies in general (and BLADERUNNER)

>Since when is SF alive in Hollywood? Let's see, lately we've had
>some *bad* fantasy (Conan & company), a *good* horror film (Alien)
>and some excellent humor (Galaxina, Ghostbusters) that were at best
>tolerable SF, and one movie (Bladerunner) that was good SF but a
>mediocre movie.

Whoa, back off.  Bladerunner is one of the best movies ever made
period, IF you ignore the voice-over.  The Hollywood movie execs
killed it by adding the voice-over and turning it into a stupid
1940's style detective movie.  They also cut out a scene that should
have been left in.  Remember that two of the replicants died before
getting to Earth?  One died in battle (killed in the space station,
I believe), the other self-destructed.  The scene where the
replicant died of "old age" was cut out.  In that scene, the
replicant dies in front of the others and one of the things he (she,
I forget) does is clench and unclench his hand.  Makes Roy's
clenching and unclenching his hand more significant, no?  Next time
you get a chance, see Bladerunner and ignore the voice- over.  A
VERY good movie.

The preceding message was brought to you by --

                Ray Chen

UUCP:   umcp-cs!eneevax!imsvax!rcc

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 15:29:00-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: none - (nf)

        ************Ghostbusters SPOILER********************

No, I agree with Ben Walls.  Before Sigourney Weaver started having
problems, the Ghostbusters had captured the thing in the ritzy
hotel, and I think a couple of others, and put them in their
toaster.

No, you have it backwards. Sigourney Weaver was the Ghostbusters
first customer. "Remember" -

The three defectives were sitting around eating a take-out Chinese
meal, and Bill Murray says "I'll need to draw some petty cash to
take her out to dinner. After all, we don't want to lose her." One
of the other two (Akroyd?) says "This magnificent feast represents
the last of the petty cash." While this is going on, the secretary
is taking a call from the hotel, along with lines like "They'll be
totally discreet." After she hangs up the phone, she shouts "We got
one!," and the ghostbusters head for the hotel, entering with the
totally discreet line "Hey, has anybody seen a ghost."

So, Sigourney's problems must have started *before* the Ghostbusters
toasterized any ghosts.

        "Gee neat. We're being invaded."
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 84 23:49:51-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!nsc!proper!mikevp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: This is sigh-fie: We can do <anything>!

Re: the message saying "The characterizations are poor (in The Last
Starfighter), but this is SF, so who cares".
  This is one of my major complaints with the way Hollyweird handles
SF attempts.  I can't judge TLSf, as I haven't seen it yet, but I
don't like it at all when movie makers take the attitude that since
this is "just sci-fi", then all the rules of character development,
plot, logic, etc., can just be thrown out the window.  The worst
abortion along these lines that I have seen recently is the last "V"
movie.
  There are certainly other things in good SF that may be at least
as important as the usual stuff-- ideas, for instance-- but
Hollyweird SF very rarely has any ideas worthy of a sea cucumber
anyway.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 84 21:42:12-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: legend : what is it?

<I'm not legend>
I saw an incidental article in the paper today about a fire on the
set of an sf movie called _Legend_. This was the first I had heard
of the movie.  Does anyone know anything about it? Is it going to be
another version of Matheson's _I am Legend_ ?

Ted Nolan                     ...usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle         ...decvac!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206                      ("Sixty-sixty?" he suggested)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 84 10:59:32-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!nsc!proper!mikevp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the ANSWER

In the "A New Hope", just before Han Solo dropped out of hyperspace
into the Alderaan (sp?) system, there was a scene in the window
similar to the "wormhole" in "Star Trek: The Motion Picure".

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 0:29:42-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dr. Who memorabilia - (nf)

I've seen a Doctor Who game for sale in the States. This place
claims to get a lot of Dr. Who stuff from England, tho...

                                Bill Hsu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 12:46:26-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!sues @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: OL episode?

Just a point of curiousity - is "Outer Limits" being run on any
stations anywhere out there?  My parents thought me too young to
watch the show when it was on (probably true) though they did let me
watch "One Step Beyond" once in a while.  Just wish I had a chance
to see the old "Outer Limits" episodes now.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #139
Date: 16 Jul 84 1159-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #139
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 84 1159-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #139
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 02:35:08-EDT
From: Jacob.Butcher@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: james TIBERIAS kirk

Wasn't Kirk's middle name revealed in the original TV show? After
all, it is everyone's favorite piece of Star Trek trivia.

                                        jacob

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 84 0:28:10-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Question on STIII novel

        "When the ENTERPRISE is making its break from Starbase,
        Uhura stays behind to jam all the communication channels.
        This is what prevents other starships from intercepting Kirk
        and crew.  One of the things she does is to mix in TV shows,
        old movies, and other entertainment into Starfleet
        communications.  One of the lines we hear is from an "old
        movie":

                "Who ARE those guys?!?"

        "Is this just some trivial line or does it have some
        significance?  I seem to remember it from somewhere but I
        can't place it.  Anyone got any ideas?"

The line is from the movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid."  It
is spoken several times while the title characters are trying to
elude a posse that they just can't seem to shake.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 84 6:43:55-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2d!jacx @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Question on STIII novel ("Who ARE those guys?!?")

     "Who are those guys?" is a quote from the movie Butch Cassidy
and the Sundance Kid.  "Those guys" refers to a posse which Butch
and Sundance were having difficulty eluding.

                                      John Cadley
                                      AT&T CPL
                                      Neptune,NJ

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 07:56:05-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Ship names, commissioning, etc.

Attempts to clear some of the issues presented re: Enterprise,
renaming, decommissioning, courts-martial, etc.

The use of a ship name is in no way tied to the class of that ship
other than by convention.  US Navy battleships have been for some
time named for US states, cruisers for cities, etc.  But there have
been many deviations, especially among aircraft carriers, which have
borne names ranging from the Presidents (Franklin D. Roosevelt, John
F. Kennedy) to an erstwhile Secretary of the Navy (James E.
Forrestal) to insects (Wasp, Hornet), Revolutionary War battles
(Lexington, Yorktown, Saratoga) and off-the-wall names like
Enterprise.  The first Enterprise wasn't an aircraft carrier; if
memory serves me correctly, she was a corvette or a frigate, under
sail.  The second and third Enterprises were other classes.  The
most recent Enterprise is a space shuttle, albeit one that will
never fly.

So there is no real problem with naming an Excelsior-class ship
"Enterprise".  But it's an UGLY ship!  And it's a dreadnought, which
is clearly too big to go gallivanting about the galaxy at the whim
of an unregenerate gadabout like Kirk - it would be like assigning
an aircraft carrier to courier service.  I suspect that there will
be a new class of heavy cruiser, of which one ship can be a new
Enterprise.

Ships are decommissioned when they have outlived their usefulness.
The US Navy is REcommissioning a SECOND mothballed World War II
battleship to join the New Jersey; my son, who is usually right
about this sort of thing, says it will be the Missouri.  There are
many other ships of the same vintage still in use, from refitted
light cruisers down to lowly minesweepers and sub tenders.  And the
USS Constitution, built in 1797, is, believe it or not, a fully
commissioned frigate in the US Navy.  Granted, the Constitution is a
special case, but she serves to underscore the "usefulness" aspect.
So 20 years is not too old for a ship - the Enterprise of ST could
certainly have been found a berth, even if it were as a yacht or
ferry craft.  Her 2-1/2 year refit before STTMP is proof that
Starfleet was willing to spend LOTS of money to keep her in service;
it is hardly consonant with such determination that she'd be
decommissioned only a few years later.

Courts-martial are the exclusive province of the military.  If it so
chooses, the military can, after holding its own trial, remand a
prisoner to civil authority for further trial by same.

As for Kirk's disobedience of orders and vindication for having so
done, I cite the case of Lieutenant William Calley, who is serving a
life term for the extermination of the people of My Lai in 1968.  It
was made very clear during his trial that what he did was wrong
(that's why they threw the poor sod in jail!), but had he refused to
follow the orders that led to the massacre, then Calley would have
been tried and convicted of wilfully disobeying a direct order given
him by a superior officer.  Under combat conditions, EVEN IF NOT
DURING A DECLARED WAR, such disobedience is classed as desertion
under fire, and the prescribed punishment is death by firing squad
(cf Private Edward Slovik, WWII, executed for desertion in the
European Theatre).  Applying this precedent to James T. Kirk, and
given the recidivistic nature of his behaviour, the proper course
for Starfleet would almost certainly be to have shot him long ago.
The argument that such an execution, or even the lesser punishment
of cashiering him, would be a waste of talent doesn't bear up, as no
military organization can afford to have a commander who will not
follow orders.  It is deemed beneficial to destroy a miscreant, even
a talented one, in light of the example the affair will set for
others who might be contemplating similar offences.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 84 12:16:17 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Self consuming computers.

Wrong Star Trek Episode.  In the Ultimate Computer, Mark V did not
consume itself by applying more of it's own resources to the problem
to a problem.  It did however get power hungry and started taking
over more of the ships resources before it decides to commit suicide
to atone for the killing that it did.  It was Wolf in the Fold,
where Spock sets the computer out to compute PI to drive out the
"Jack the Ripper" entity that has inhabitted it.

-Ron
Nonsequitor, your thoughts are uncoordinated.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 12:49:49 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: STII "Goofs"

To the Gentleman who took issue with my comments regarding STIII--

I hate to say it, sir, but it turns out my rationalizations of STIII
(i.e., the Klingons, the Bird-of-Prey, etc.) are NOT goofs.  It
turns out that there is INDEED an active cross-fertilization between
the folks at Paramount and the folks at FASA/Fantasimulations,
producers of the Star Trek Role Playing Game.  This is confirmed in
conversations with the authors of the game (see the interview, which
I conducted, coming shortly in SPACE GAMER, the gaming magazine
published by Steve Jackson Games, of Austin, TX).

Fantasimulations worked closely with Paramount, in order to make
sure that the game would work with the new facts released from the
movie.  Among the various items developed by Fantasimulations are
rationalizations and ship diagrams (as well as some really nifty
miniatures) of all the ships in the movie.

Furthermore, I have learned that *everything* that is produced for
ST outside of the movies--i.e., books and game materials--is
collected by Paramount and put into files for possible use by the
film producers.  Among some of the material used in STIII ARE THE
MANUSCRIPT BY JOHN M. FORD, THE FINAL REFLECTION AND THE KLINGONS
SUPPLEMENT PRODUCED BY FASA/FANTASIMULATIONS.  Indeed, one of the
co-designers of the Klingons Supplement expressed his amazement and
delight that he had experienced in seeing that the emblems worn by
the Klingons were *HIS* designs!

So, sir, before you jump down my throat next time, take a deep
breath and think things through.  I, at least, took the trouble to
check my facts.  May I suggest that you do the same, as well?

Respectfully submitted,

Frederick Paul Kiesche III
Free-lance reviewer and author,
SPACE GAMER/FANTASY GAMER

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 13 Jul 1984 09:51:31-PDT
From: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
Subject: Re: Star Trek III

Stephen,

A minor quibble with your interesting debate:

        There is no more Genesis....Khan found all the Genesis data
        erased when he arrived at Regula I.

The novelizations make it clear that the Genesis data was hidden in
the Genesis cave on the planetoid near Regula I.  In the most recent
novel, David and Saavik go down there to retrieve it.

The issue of Genesis can be kept very much alive if that's what the
producers want to do.  I personally think it's time for a new
storyline in the "Star Trek" movies, though.  I hope Kirk's
court-martial/exoneration/ execution isn't the entire focus of "Star
Trek IV."

                                        -- Roger Goun

ARPA:    goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elmer!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13
         77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749
MCIMail: RGoun
Tel:     (617) 568-6311

------------------------------

From: ihnp4!vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb@Berkeley
Date: 14 Jul 84 01:48:13 CDT (Sat)
Subject: Star Trek III -- Enterprise

        Several messages have refered to the decommissioning of
Enterprise, including the recent "debate" published by Stephen R.
Balzac. I'd like to plug my two cents worth.

        First, the Enterprise had only been refitted with a new
engine/power system and new weapons and shield systems "at least
seven and a half years ago" in a "two and a half year refit" (
quotes from Balzac's mat'l ). Now why would a two and a half year
refit result in something so useless as to be decommissioned only
seven and a half years later?

        Quite obviously the Enterprise is quite fit for its duties
especially after its recent refit. Perhaps it isn't "state of the
art" but in surface navy practice ( which everyone seems to be
borrowing from ) very few ships are brand new. For that matter, ship
hull construction and power systems change infrequently. The United
States is refitting ships currently that were originally constructed
over forty years ago. ( The New Jersey and her sister ships, Iowa
class I believe ).

        Now weapons technology does change but it is very easy to
refit ships with new weapons kits. It's currently done all the time
with aircraft and ships.

        I am forced to conclude that the idea that Enterprise is to
be decommissioned is just a plot device to have her empty of crew
when Kirk decides to run off with her. Actually a clumsy plot device
as even at the time I said the instant that it was mentioned the
Enterprise would be decommissioned that it was stupid.

        My second point is that I found the idea that the Enterprise
could be defeated by a very small Klingon scout ship quite silly.
First of all that a ship virtually always controlled by one computer
or another couldn't easily be controlled by a hand full of people
through existing computer systems ridiculous. Now I didn't say the
rest of the crew was not useful in a fleet battle or extended
cruising. What I said was that the five people on board should have
been able to hold out against a scout ship for more than five
minutes.
                                Robin D. Roberts
                                ATT: (213) 450 9111 x2916
                                uucp: left as an exercise for the
                                      instructor.
                                "Death to Tyrants!"

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 6:53:33-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!rdin!abs @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Star Trek honoring Arthur C. Clarke(?)

Stephen Balzac recently speculated about the possibilities of
replacing the Enterprise as the Star Trek crew's chief means of
locomotion.  One paragraph in particular caught my eye:

> How about a new Excelsior-class (?) vessel for Kirk?  Not
> Enterprise II, but. . .what?  Explorer?  Voyager?  Journeyer?
> Venture?  Just some ideas.  Nothing, I fear, can replace the name
> Enterprise.  (Discovery is another idea, but Arthur C. Clarke
> might have something to say about that.)

It has occurred to me that a (subtle) link between Star Trek and
Arthur C. Clarke may be in the making, to wit:

I'm sure that you all noticed that the serial number of the
Excelsior was NX-2000.  Wouldn't it make sense (as Stephen
hypothesized) that the ship intended to replace the Enterprise also
be called Enterprise?  And since it is very likely that this "New
Enterprise" will be the next ship in the Excelsior Class, then
wouldn't it make sense to assume that its serial number will be
NX-2001?  And doesn't the number 2001 have significance in a milieu
other than that of Star Trek?  Will "Star Trek IV" be directed by
Stanley Kubrick?

Food for thought...
                                        Andrew Siegel
                                        philabs!rdin!abs

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 84 13:36:20-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!matt @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Question on STIII novel ("Who ARE those guys?!?")

>       When the ENTERPRISE is making its break from Starbase,
> Uhura stays behind to jam all the communication channels.  This is
> what prevents other starships from intercepting Kirk and crew.
> One of the things she does is to mix in TV shows, old movies, and
> other entertainment into Starfleet communications.  One of the
> lines we hear is from an "old movie":

>       "Who ARE those guys?!?"

> Is this just some trivial line or does it have some significance?
> I seem to remember it from somewhere but I can't place it.  Anyone
> got any ideas?

I don't know, but it was also the title of a record by the New
Riders of the Purple Sage.  (Erstwhile warm-up group for the
Greatful Dead.)

Matt            University      ARPA: crawford@anl-mcs.arpa
Crawford        of Chicago      UUCP: ihnp4!oddjob!matt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #140
Date: 18 Jul 84 1354-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #140
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 84 1354-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #140
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:

   Administrivia - Policy Reminders,
   Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Piper & Constructed Worlds (4 msgs),
   Films - "Enemy Mine" & Acquiring Crays & "Legend" &
           "Bladerunner" & Movies from Hollywood & Computers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 84 15:34:37 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

        It seems it is time once again to issue a reminder to people
who read this digest of the policy I have tried to follow.
        First, messages which are to be included in this digest are
to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.  There are several reasons for this
the most important being that the messages are automatically
forwarded to people on the USEnet who read messages as they come in
rather than in digest form.
        SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS should be used for messages that
are only supposed to be read by the moderator.  These messages
include change of address, removal from mailing list, requests for
missing copies, etc. Messages sent to this address that are intended
for inclusion in the digest will be ignored.
        When sending messages to SF-LOVERS, try and stick to one
topic.  That is one author, book, or film.  Many people may not be
interested in one of the topics but are interested in another.  The
way messages are split up allow people to decide whether they want
to go through an entire message or just skim through it to the next.
If you keep your messages to one topic it is much easier on all of
us and your message will get into the digest sooner.
        Also, this is a forum for discussion of SF.  Messages have
been included announcing various events like Worldcon or public
appearances of famous people on occasion in the past.  When posting
such information please do not include any pricing information.  For
political reasons we cannot seem to be "selling" anything.  You can
of course give an address or phone number of where to get further
information.  Also please state whether the event is a money-making
event or non-profit.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 10:33:50-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscure)

Q: How many Pierson's Puppeteers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, it's too dangerous.  They'll hire someone else to do it.

Q: How many Thrintun does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: 17,002.  One to discover a new slave world, 17,000 to enslave it,
   and one to direct the actual operation.

Q: How many Grogs does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None.  You'll do it for them.

Q: How many Pak protectors does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Three million and one.  One million to fight a huge, senseless,
   bloody war over who should change it, one million to research the
   nature and location of the lightbulb, one million to build the
   tools, and one to change the lightbulb.

Q: How many Kzinti does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None.  Kzinti can see in the dark!

Q: How many Kdatlyno does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: What's a lightbulb?

Q: How many Motie engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Only one, but you won't recognize it when she's done with it...

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (tekecs!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 11:20:19-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer)

Q: How many Trinocs does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Three.  One to change the bulb, one to be suspicious of the one
changing the bulb, and one to to be suspicious of the one being
suspicious.  The one changing the bulb is already suspicious.

Q: How many Outsiders does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One, but he may not get around to it for a few thousand years.

Q: How many Tnuctipun does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: The entire Tnuctipun race.  They have to design a genetically
engineered animal species with a specialized lightbulb-changing
limb.

Q: How many Motie Mediators does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None.  It will get trashed in the next collapse anyway.

Q: How many Jinxians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Seven.  Four to tear off the walls of the room, two to lower the
ceiling, and one to change the bulb.

Q: How many psionically lucky humans does it take to change a
 lightbulb?
A: None.  The light bulb will never go out.

                        Bruce Cohen
                        UUCP:   ...!tektronix!orca!brucec
                        CSNET:  orca!brucec@tektronix
                        ARPA:   orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay
                        USMail: M/S 61-183
                                Tektronix, Inc.
                                P.O. Box 1000
                                Wilsonville, OR 97070

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 84 11:17:51-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE by H. Beam Piper

   From what I've read from various sources, I gather that the
reason that Piper suicided (or at least the proximate one) was that
he was broke, and had a philosophical objection against going on
welfare for a living. The reason that he was broke, was that his
literary agent had died, and not left any records to show whether
Piper was owed any money.  Piper thought that his stories were no
longer selling, that he was a failure.  In fact, Piper's agent had
sold several of his novels to Analog (I think) before dying; he just
didn't let Piper know about it. So, if Piper had known about how
successful he in fact was, he might never have felt despondent
enough to take his option. Personally, I think that this is one of
the greatest tragedies in the SF circle. Piper was a great writer,
and but for an unlikely turn of fate, he might still have been with
us.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 10:57:43 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: constructed worlds

All the constructed worlds messages, though fairly repetitive,
missed one very good example: "Moonbow", by J. P. Boyd, a novelette
in the May 1981 IASFM.  It was not a particularly good story, but
the construction was excellent.  Imagine a very thin donut about
one-fifth as big as the sun.  Specifically, it's got a major radius
of 150,000 km, minor radius of 1500 km, surface gravity 0.2 Gs,
about 1 Barr of air pressure, toroidal spin of 6 km/sec, and 16
times the surface area of Earth.

I call this type of object a torusworld.  At the time the story came
out, I was investigating them on my own, so the story got me pretty
excited.  One thing I like about torusworlds is that, unlike EVERY
other non-trivial constructed world in SF, you can build them with
known physical laws and without unreasonably strong materials.
Another thing I like is the gravitational dynamics.  Boyd's story
did not say much about that aspect, but I can tell you they are
pretty wild.  For example, there is a helical orbit looping through
the "hole"...

The best technical reference on torusworlds is "Hydrodynamics", by
Sir Horace Lamb, first published in 1878.  There is also a paper by
Laplace, published in 1780, looking into whether the rings of Saturn
could be a torusworld.

"Plus ca change..."
Jef

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1984 10:04:49 EDT
From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Created Worlds

     "Orbitsville Departure", the sequel to Bob Shaw's
"Orbitsville", was published late last year in Britain by Gollancz.
It's impossible to discuss plot details without spoiling the entire
book, but it's fair to mention that the real purpose behind the
construction of the Dyson Sphere finally is revealed...and it's a
definite surprise.  Rumour has it that US publication may occur this
year.  The original was one of the early Ace SF Specials, I think,
and the sequel may join the new series.
     "God's World", by Ian Watson, should be added to the list of
created worlds.  Again, it's not out in the States, but should be
available from shops that carry imports (e.g., Bakka (Toronto), the
Science Fiction Shop (NYC), or A Change of Hobbit (LA).)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 9:56:06-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: constructed worlds

I am suprised that no one has mentioned Larry Niven's latest
"constructed world", from his book "Integral Trees".  This world is
very interesting, because it is not a world, per se, only a
breathable gas torus around a neutron star.

Jon Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 15:49 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: More constructed worlds

There's also Farmer's "World of Tiers" series, in which a race of 
"Lords" uses an advanced technology to create entire universes, and 
populate them with planets, creatures, etc. for their own amusement.  
Even physical laws can be specified.  Access between universes is via
"gateways".  I had read one book of this a long time ago and got a
pointer here to the rest of the series last year.  I liked all five
books, although things got rather silly towards the end (The Lavalite
World).
                        "Who are you?"
                        "The new Number Two"
                        - Michel

Arpa: Denber.WBST@Xerox UUCP: <buncha weird names & exclamation marks>
RF: KB2BQ

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Jul 84 10:23:49-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Enemy Mine

"Enemy Mine" is being made into a movie and will be directed by
Wolfgang Peterson ("Die Unendliche Geschichte", "The Boat") and will
star Lou Gossett, Jr. and Dennis Quaid. (Source: 7/15 Boston glob)
Yoww!  Finally, a film which isn't a re-make of a Heinlein juvenile.

Despite comments that Barry Longyear "stole" the plot for "Enemy
Mine" from a WWII film, it was a very good story and I believe it
won a Hugo.
                                        wz
The Hastelloy C Gnat

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 11:36:24 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #138

>Question: How does a start-up company like Digital Productions
>acquire a Cray X-MP?  Are they buying time on it?  Or, are they
>leasing it?  Or what?

DP owns the CRAY (actually BofA owns it).
 The founders managed to locate a company with lots of excess
profits and a strong interest in computer graphics...Ramtek Corp. a
major manufacturer of CG hardware. Ramtek has poured many millions
into DP and has backed the BofA loans.
 Also DP was able to convince CRAY that it would be good publicity
and they might someday be able to sell CRAY's with DP's graphics
software.  The purchase price of the CRAY isnt the real money
problem. The operational costs are outrageous.. $50,000/month+ for
on site service, 100Kilo Watts per hour power + power for cooling
system, etc. etc.

When DP isnt using the XMP, they sell time on it thru a subsidiary
called Vector Production. Anybody need a few cycles??

A side note: Digital Prod. originally had a used CRAY 1S that Boeing
Computer Services traded in for a newer model. The video game
scenes, some starfields and most of the star car sequences were
filmed on this machine. The X-MP was not installed until December
1983.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 Jul 1984 12:09:08-PDT
From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Media Graphics,
From: MK01/2N25, DTN:264-5090)
Subject: Re: legend : what is it?

> I saw an incidental article in the paper today about a fire on the
> set of an sf movie called _Legend_...Does anyone know anything
> about it?

Legend is the newest film from Ridley Scott (Alien, Blade Runner,
Apple 1984 Ad, etc.)  The fire broke out while filming a special
effects shot.  the sound stage burned to the ground.  The stage was
the "007 Stage" at Pinewood Studios, Iverheath, England, the world's
largest film stage.  Having visited the stage myself, I can confirm
that it was indeed quite large.  It was built for the production of
"The Spy Who Loved Me" to shoot the oil tanker interior scenes.
Since then, it has appeared in Superman I,II,III, Krull and a few
other films.  I don't know how the fire will effect the production
of _Legend_.  The loss of the "007 Stage" is quite tragic.  I don't
know if Pinewood, or their owners Rank Films, can afford to rebuild
it, insurance or not.  I hope that they do.

Randy Dearborn
Digital Media Graphics
SAGE::DEARBORN
603-884-5090

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 Jul 1984 12:20:51-PDT
From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Media Graphics,
From: MK01/2N25, DTN:264-5090)
Subject: Re: BLADERUNNER COMMENTS

> Bladerunner is one of the best movies ever made period, IF you
> ignore the voice-over.  The Holywood movie execs killed it by
> adding the voice-over and turning it into a stupid 1940's style
> detective movie...

I agree that BLADERUNNER is a fine film.  However, I remember
reading an interview with Harrison Ford in which he said that the
voice-over was part of the ORIGINAL concept for the film.  The
1940's look was integral with Ridley Scott's directoral vision.  I
will admit that the editing is a little uneven and that some scenes
should have been handled differently, but few films have captured a
vision of the future as effectively as BLADERUNNER.  Yes, ignore the
voice-over.  I do, every time I watch my copy.

Randy Dearborn
Digital Media Services
Merrimack, NH
SAGE::DEARBORN
603-884-5090

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 16:56 PDT
From: woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Sigh-Fie Movies from Hollywood

  I'd love to see a SF movie someday which uses special effects to
add to, not carry, the movie.  This is where I thought Star Wars did
well; the effects were there to add to the action, not the other way
around.  And also this is where I thought TRON died horribly; the
plot, characters, and action were only excuses for the pretty
computer graphics.  (Not to say I didn't enjoy the movie; I saw it
twice.)
  To me, the ideal movie would be one where there is extensive
character development, plenty of action to help the story line, and
effects to make it all pretty.  And it's not impossible to have all
this in a short, two hour movie; there are plenty of excellent short
stories which could be made into a two-hour movie without any
problems, and yet fit the bill.

       William Woody
       1-60 Caltech
       Pasadena, CA 91126

  "Research would have been continued along this line, but wasn't,
because the author didn't know what the heck was going on...."

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 15:49 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: More constructed worlds

Why shouldn't computers barf in movies?  I mean it wouldn't be very 
entertaining if the hero typed "Why do you exist?"  on the console, 
and it just typed back "UNDEFINED CAR OF FORM - Why".  Anyway 
sometimes computers really do blow up.  There was a story on the net a
while back about some unfortunate soul who plugged his backplane into
the wall socket.

                        "Who are you?"
                        "The new Number Two"
                        - Michel

Arpa: Denber.WBST@Xerox UUCP: <buncha weird names & exclamation marks>
RF: KB2BQ

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #141
Date: 18 Jul 84 1412-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #141
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 84 1412-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #141
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:

             ******SPECIAL ISSUE - FILMEX REVIEWS******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Jul 84 12:43:29 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: movie review: "Eyes of Fire"

Another film from Filmex, "Eyes of Fire" is an unusual
fantasy/horror film.  It's set in 1750 on the American frontier.  A
preacher with somewhat loose moral standards for his own behavior
barely avoids hanging and escapes to the wilderness with several of
his loyal followers.  They float downriver on a stolen raft, pursued
by the husband of the woman the preacher has been fooling around
with.  Hostile Indians and Frenchmen force them to land and flee to
a valley which the Indians have marked as taboo.  As always in such
films, there's a damn good reason the Indians won't touch it with a
ten foot pole.  Good thing that the settlers have unknowingly
brought along their very own witch, a girl the minister saved when
her mother was burned as a witch (they had a real difficult time
with her; the fire kept going out...).  Ever since saving her, the
minister has been unusually lucky.  For instance, the rope breaks
when the villagers try to hang him.

"Eyes of Fire" is beautifully photographed, in a backwoods area of
Missouri.  The art direction is also quite good, as are the effects
and makeup.  The film cost only a little over a million to make, but
looks much better than that.  There are a lot of shocks and general
grossness, but little blood and dismemberment.  The first-time
director, Avery Crounse, relies more on good, old-fashioned shock
effects than "Friday the 13th" style butchery.  His background as a
still photographer shows up in some lovely shots.

It is only fair to mention that opinion on this film is divided.
Many critics thought that Crounse had taken an interesting situation
and then just dumped it in favor of standard horror film nonsense.
Some people leaving the theater were saying how great it was, others
thought it was a piece of trash.  I, myself, liked it a lot.  It
will probably be released in a few months.

                                Peter Reiher
                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Jul 84 13:06:39 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: movie revies: "A Science Fiction Omnibus"

More news from Filmex.  The programmers grouped together five
science fiction and fantasy shorts made within the last couple years
in Canada and the US, under the title "A Science Fiction Omnibus".
The films are between 13 minutes and half an hour in length, and, as
might be expected, are uneven in quality.

"The Plant" is a film from Canada about an unusually virulant
houseplant taken in by a lonely fellow.  Eventually, it takes over
his house.  The stop-motion effects are well done, and well
integrated, and there's nothing wrong with the film, but it's a bit
thin.

"Quest" is based on an original Ray Bradbury story, and is directed
by Saul and Elaine Bass.  Saul Bass is the fellow responsible for
the credit sequences of the James Bond films, and many other films.
The story concerns a world in which people live for only eight days,
and a boy who is sent out to open a set of doors which will allow
light to flow through and give the people longer lives.  He must
overcome many obstacles on the way.  The imagry is truly dazzling in
this little short, and it includes some first class model and matte
work, as well as a good miniature effect.  The story, unfortunately,
is overly familiar.  None the less, the splendid effects made this
the audience's favorite, and mine as well.

"Renascence", on the other hand, drew hisses and boos.  Half an hour
of a nasty fellow killing off a young woman and reviving her so that
she can do his household chores and serve as his victim again.  The
photography, in black and white, was good, and the actors played
there parts as well as possible, but it's far too long and
repetitive.

"Strange Tangents" combines some pretty good effects with what is
truthfully the worst acting I've ever seen on a movie screen, and
I've seen over 3000 films.  The writing also stinks.  The whole is
obviously an attempt to showcase the special effects talents of the
makers.  The story concerns a sorceress' attempt to recover a
crystal from a far dimension before her master croaks.  There's a
lot of good effects, setting aside some second rate and unnecessary
stop motion photography of a salamander (apparently literally a Ray
Harryhausen reject creature).  There are four speaking parts, and
all of the actors would be booed off the stage at a junior high
school play.

"The Final Hour" concerns a convicted space commander on his way to
his last appeal before he is executed fo murder.  He must save the
two person vessel he is travelling on from disaster, and also
attempt to escape.  A set of final twists is totally without impact.
There are no special effects worth speaking of (other than lots of
sparks and smoke), and the sets were either copied from Roger
Corman's sf films or perhaps are even the same sets slightly
disguised.  Not really worth the trouble.

Overall, I highly recommend "Quest" (if you know someone who
programs for conventions, tell him/her that it's a sure hit), would
suggest seeing "The Plant" if you don't have to go out of your way
to do so, and recommend "Strange Tangents" for those interested in
special effects, even when they're all a film has going for it.  No
need to walk out of "The Final Hour" if you happen to find yourself
watching it, but don't bother looking for it.  Avoid "Renascence" at
all costs.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 84 21:09:36 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Fantasy film: "Pessi and Illusia"

Yet another report from Filmex.  This one is on "Pessi and Illusia",
a Finnish fantasy film.  The story takes place during an
unspecified, but, considering the weaponry, contemporary war, in
Finland.  A father writes home to his young daughter.  In his
letters, he tells her stories about a gnome named Pessi and a fairy
named Illusia.  Illusia has come from the kingdom of her father, the
rainbow, to see what Earth is like.  She meets Pessi, who
immediately falls in love with her.  A cruel spider cuts off
Illusia's wings, leaving her unable to return to her home.  When
winter comes, Illusia is ill equipped to handle the cold and snow,
but Pessi helps her, stealing a shovel from the humans to build a
nest for her.  The spider is still after Illusia, as is a ferret.
Moreover, they have a rather different problem.  The soldier
father's story is not set in the distant past or the far away, but
in the present and right where he is.  In other words, the creatures
have to deal with a modern war, complete with helicopters,
amphibious tanks, and high explosives.  The film has an unexpected
message.  Rather than dumping on war, it suggests that you cannot
really appreciate life until things get rough.

This film was obviously made for children, but not for very young
children.  It's particularly inappropriate for young American
children, as their parents would have to read them the subtitles.
Whether you, an adult, will like it depends on your tastes.  Try
this test: does the thought of a man, a woman, and half a dozen
children dressed up as fieldmice, scampering about, make you want to
retch?  If so, "Pessi and Illusia" isn't for you.  I have a
reasonable tolerance for this sort of thing, so I enjoyed it.
Actually, you probably won't have to worry about this, as I can't
see anyone thinking that they're going to make much money
distributing it, and it isn't good enough to attract the attention
of those who care more about quality than money, and will take a
chance on an interesting film.  Unless someone runs a Finnish film
festival near where you live, or the local revival house programmers
are fond of novelties and don't mind working to get them, you
probably won't get a chance to see it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 84 19:31:04 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: film review: "The Plague Dogs"

Another bulletin from Filmex.

"The Plague Dogs" is an animated version of the book by Richard
Adams, better known for "Watership Down".  In fact, Martin Rosen,
director of "The Plague Dogs", also directed the film version of
"Watership Down".  This film shares some of the same
characteristics.  The animation is fairly good.  It's not up to Don
Bluth, but it's much better than Ralph Bakshi (there's damning with
faint praise).  There are a few good multiplane shots which,
unfortunately, only draw attention to the weakness of the rest of
the animation.  The character animation is spotty, and the
backgrounds range from good to mediocre.  The dogs in question speak
to each other, and to other animals, which provides the fantasy
connection, if any.

The story is really depressing.  A couple of dogs escape from an
experimental facility.  One of them has just had some brain surgery
which plays games with his reality.  The other was subjected to
repeated near-drownings in an attempt to find out if its endurance
increased.  Once the dogs have escaped, though, they find themselves
in the middle of England's Lake District, and are forced to survive
by killing sheep, which doesn't endear them to the populace.  They
are befriended by a canny fox, who helps them out of numerous
scrapes in return for a share of their kills.  As the story of their
escape leaks out, another leak reveals that the laboratory was also
doing research on bubonic plague, presumably for the army.  Though
the dogs haven't been infected, the level of public hysteria greatly
increases.  Coupled with some truly abominable luck, this causes the
net around the dogs to grow tighter and tighter.  This wasn't very
cheerful in print, and a new, more downbeat ending (added with
Adam's approval) makes the film even less so.  In fact, it's
apparently killed dead any chance of the film having a general
release in the near future.  Despite some glowing reviews, business
in test dates has been extremely disappointing.

This is definitely animation for adults.  If I had a five year old,
I don't think I'd want to discuss the pros and cons of vivasection
with him after seeing this film, and I don't think he'd have
anything approximating a good time.  If you do want to see it, you
seem to have two options.  There has been a sale to HBO, the cable
network, so it should appear there soon.  Also, it will be coming
out on videocassette.  I would give the film a qualified
recommendation.  Many of those who saw it with me were more
enthusiastic.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 84 19:34:26 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: a film version of "Out of the Silent Planet"

Martin Rosen, director of "Watership Down", is working on a live
action adaptation of C.S. Lewis' "Out of the Silent Planet".  It is
still in the scripting stages, but Rosen sounds confident that it
will be made.  He mentioned that he intends to combine "Out of the
Silent Planet" and "Perelandra" into a single film.  The time frame
on this is two to four years from now.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 84 02:26:47 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Movie Review:  "Ring of Power"

My penultimate report from Filmex:

"Ring of Power" is an animated rock and roll fantasy which has
already received limited distribution under the title "Rock and
Rule".  The film has been complete for at least 6 months, but
they're having some trouble getting distribution.

"Ring of Power" isn't really a very descriptive name, as the only
ring in the movie is used just to identify someone early on, and
then is seen no more.  The story is set in a post-holocast world in
which dogs, cats, and rats have mutated into more human-like
creatures.  Mok, a rock star with magical powers, wishes to call up
a nasty critter from another dimension, apparently just to prove
that he can do it and to raise a little hell.  To do this, he must
find someone with a special voice to sing a certain song at the
right moment.  This is where the ring comes in.  It recognizes the
right voice.

The only female member of a second rate rock band turns out to be
the lucky one.  Mok kidnaps her and heads for Nuke York (sic),
followed by the other members of the band, including Angel's (that's
the girl) sweetheart.  Mok intends to unleash his demon during a
rock concert, but Angel is unenthusiastic.  Mok captures the clowns
and uses them to force Angel to sing the song.  Whoops, tough luck,
Nuke York doesn't have enough electrical power, so the demon only
trashs Carnagey (sic) Hall.  Back home to Ohm City, where there's
power aplenty.  Here we have the rock concert to end them all, good
faces evil, and so on.  You get the picture.

The animation is fairly good.  The backgrounds are really great, the
characters, which owe a lot to early Ralph Bakshi, less so.  Mok is
obviously physically modelled on Mick Jagger, almost to the point of
it being actionable.  The character concepts aren't much, neither is
their execution.  One exception is a Mister Rogers-like TV character
called Uncle Mikey (or something like that), whose short bit is so
good that it seems like it's out of another movie.  The voices are
nothing special.

There are 9 or 10 rock songs in the film, contributed by Deborah
Harry, Cheap Trick, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, and Earth, Wind, and Fire.
This doesn't conform to my tastes in rock, but the songs are
generally unobjectionable, if also unmemorable.

Overall, I would recommend the film to students of animation, mostly
for its backgrounds and animated special effects.  Others who like
the groups and individuals who contributed music might also be
interested.  As for the rest, well, if you don't have to go out of
your way, and it's cheap, and you had nothing else to do anyway...

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #142
Date: 18 Jul 84 1431-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #142
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 84 1431-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #142
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:

          ******SPECIAL ISSUE - THE LAST STARFIGHTER******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "The Last Starfighter".  People who have not yet seen the
movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 84 21:16:13-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: The Last Starfighter Review (Non-spoiler)

Well, I saw "The Last Starfighter" tonight.  Capsule review:
entertaining, humorous, definitely not high art, great special
effects (they credit "Super Computer -- Cray XMP," amongst other
luminaries), some good performances, and generally poor directing.
Worth $2 to $3 but I'd skip the full price showing.  Okay for most
children and some adults :-).

Now for some specifics.  The movie could have used a stronger story
and some tighter direction.  Too often a scene was shot to emphasize
the hokey aspects rather than just get the point across.  The lead
actor (whose name escapes me at the moment) did a really nice job in
his role.  He overplayed it at times, but his dazed look and
incredulous glances really made some scenes memorable.  Dan
O'Herlihy (where have we seen him before?) played Grig, the alien,
and did a pretty passable job of conveying emotion -- especially
considering the lizard skin makeup.  Robert Preston was marvelous in
his overacting, as usual.  And the female lead didn't really get her
role fleshed out much.  In fact, every time I saw her, I nearly
laughed.  The poor girl looks almost exactly like Robbie Benson (in
drag, of course).

The special effects are great.  The computer generated/enhanced
shots were very well done and were more realistic than any I have
ever seen in a commercial film.  Unfortunately, the mattes in some
scenes were not of the same high quality.  Overlays, such as
explosions, etc., sometimes didn't look quite right. Proportions
were off in spots.

Character development and motivation were poor.  Background was
almost non-existent.  I never really got a good feel for why most of
the characters were doing the things they did.  I had some idea of
what was going on because I had read the novelization, but the
people with me who hadn't read it were left with a number of
questions.

Still, I enjoyed the movie.  I'd go see it again rather than Indiana
Jones, for instance.  I might even go see it again instead of Star
Trek III, but that depends on my mood.  The Last Starfighter has
some moments of high humor, and the audience laughed and cheered
through a number of scenes.  It's great entertainment.  Check it
out.  And hold your breath until DUNE hits the screen....

Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
Phone: (404) 894-6169, (404) 894-6170 [messages]
CSNet: Spaf @ GATech
Arpa:  Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA
uucp:  ...!{akgua,allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf
       ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 84 14:35:47-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Conan and Last Starfighter (minor spoilers)

The best thing about the preview of "Last Starfighter" was that they
let you in for the regular showing of "Conan the Destroyer" and
allowed you to stay for "Last Starfighter".  Meant I got to see two
mindless movies for the price of one.  (I'm from the "mindless is OK
if you don't fool yourself into thinking that you're getting
Something Important" school.  'sides, this is Summer.)

I liked "Last Starfighter" quite a bit more, even though the only
really heroic character in the film is the Beta unit.  The
oft-mentioned Cray-crunched graphics are impressive as hell, but
there's a long way to go before computer graphics can look as
convincing as models.  Two reasons: no motion blur (the
stop-motion/go-motion business) and the preponderance of flat-grey
glare-free surfaces.  Still, there were some pretty convincing
sequences, and it WAS real pretty to watch.

As for the story, the movie that it most resembles ISN'T "Star Wars"
(aside from the Young Hero Who Saves the World).  It's "This Island
Earth".  The alien humanoids even LOOK a little like the Metaluna
folks.  I really don't understand why every space-opera film is
accused of being a "star wars imitation" after all this time.

The arrival of Our Hero at the Good Guy base and his confusion, and
discovery of what's going on, is one of the high points.  The set-up
for the battle was pretty reasonable, as the Bad Guys destroy the
Good Guy base and spaceforce except for Our Hero.  But the Decisive
Space Battle is singularly unexciting.  When the climax finally
occurred, my reaction was "oh.  Was that it?"  Lay this problem
firmly at the feet of the director and editor, who evidently didn't
watch SOME parts of "Star Wars" well enough to learn about pacing
and how to build to a climax.

On the other hand, the "meanwhile, back on Earth" stuff is quite
enjoyable, with some weird humor, and some nicely menacing villains
in the picture too.

The performances are generally good, with Robert Preston stealing
the show, and Daniel O'Herlihy managing to somehow use his eyes to
convey a surprising amount of character through a face full of
latex.

Finally, whether you like the film or not will really depend on how
you respond to its basic good-hearted, innocent, romantic, and even
unashamedly corny approach to the story.  Me, I'm a sucker for that
sort of stuff, so it's about a 7.9 on my scale of 10.  And it's
probably a 9.0 or 10.0 if you're about that age (or are kids too
cynical nowadays?)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 84  9:52:24 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCK.ARPA>
Subject: The Last Starfighter - Recommended (Non-spoiler)

THE LAST STARFIGHTER -- Highly recommended

Here's a four-star summer film with no redeeming social value, so
pack up your troubles and get airconditions for a few hours.

If you like aliens, space ships, video games, and fantasy
fulfillment, you'll love this.

There's also an amazing amount of humorous bits, which I wouldn't
dream of spoil for you by telling.

Try for a theater with a good (dolby) sound system; it's worth it.

The special effects are good.

I found myself thinking about Robert Heinlein's "Have Space Suit --
Will Travel" at times, both during and after seeing this flick.

The similarity is both protogonists want to "get out of this small
town, go to a good college and do something with my life."

The difference is that Clifford "Kip" Russell (in Space Suit) was a
budding engineer/scientist/boy scout (i.e., a typical Heinlein hero
of that era), and Alex Rogan (in Last Starfighter) has, apparently,
a phenomemal skill [...see for yourself, for what it's worth] and
not much beyond that in the way of redeeming or interesting
character, personality -- the kid would make a good vanilla ice
cream sunday, if you poured hot fudge over him.  His younger brother
is much more interesting, and hip, too.

In fact, Alex is much like Luke Skywalker -- a medium sized galoot
ripe for teenage audience identification, which no real problems or
personality of his own. Yawn.

However, this movie makes no pretensions at being any deeper than a
sandbox, or any more meaningful -- far less than Star Wars -- and I
loved almost every minute of it.  I think this is the golden age of
sf films, so let's go go go.

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 84 02:06:41 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: SFX in THE LAST STARFIGHTER

This is the first movie I can remember that has a credit for a
supercomputer; the Cray X-MP of Digital Productions.  And the
special effects are pretty good, even startling at some points.  But
they're marred in a few places.

The most objectionable is a strobing effect when an object flies
right by the "camera" while moving at high speed, as nearly
everything does in TLS.  Because there was apparently no attempt to
blur for motion, objects appear unnaturally jerky.  This is a great
example of why blurring is important in computer graphics.

Less obvious is the Mach band effect as cylindrical objects are seen
to be built up out of rectangles.  This is usually well-hidden, but
look for it on munitions in the Gunstar's bays, and on the Ko-Dan
fighters.

Finally, things just aren't dirty and bumpy enough; nearly
everything is a smooth, metallic, Phong-shaded surface.  A bit more
random texturing might have been appropriate.  Certainly the
asteroid (fractal surface?) was a little too regular.

None of this detracts from the film as a whole, and the graphics
themselves are great fun to watch; there are lots of bits here that
simply couldn't be done with models.  Also, There's a good article
on the SFX in the June CINEFEX, along with GHOSTBUSTERS.

        - Mike

ps.  Watch for the DR. STRANGELOVE reference during the Starfighter
briefing session!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 01:54:16 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Last Starfighter [no spoiler]

Coming out of the theatre from The Last Starfighter, the following
conversation took place between my wife and myself:

me: Some of the scenes were synthesized by computer, could you tell
    which ones?

her: Of course, it was obvious.

me: Well, I guess they haven't gotten to the point where graphics
    are indistinguishable from live action, but I thought they were
    pretty close...

her: It looked pretty indistinguishable to me.

me:  But you just said--

her:  I was kidding.  I have no idea which scenes were generated.

Well, now.  The review of TLS I read in the newspaper gives no hint
that the reviewer knew that the more spectacular half of the sets
existed only in the imagination of a Cray X-MP.  It has only just
occurred to me that a large segment of the viewing public may not
realize it either.

--JoSH
"You're having a terrible nightmare."

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984 06:09:41-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: The last Starfighter, reviews of...

        ****************************************************
        * SPOILER REVIEW * SPOILER REVIEW * SPOILER REVIEW *
        ****************************************************

The idea that a backward, earthbound video-arcade wizard snatched up
from his trailer-park home can save the galaxy (universe?) from the
clutches of an evil emperor is sure to be popular escape fare, but
it's so poorly done in The Last Starfighter that I'd have to say
that the sums spent to make the film, and the probably greater sums
that will be spent to see it, are wasted.  The film is trash.

There isn't a plot.  From the moment that Robert Preston's Star Car
appears, it is a foregone concusion what the rest of the film will
be like.  There is very little acting - with few exceptions,
golliwogs or Cabbage Patch dolls could have displayed more emotion
in reading the lines.  The boy/girl sub-plot doesn't add to the film
because the girl never gets into danger - there isn't any real
reason for her presence except as a foil for the humourous scenes
with the Beta unit.

There aren't any outstanding special effects.  All the full-size
spacecraft interiors, exteriors, et al. are stock-in-trade for any
studio today.  The use of digital simulation for all the usual
miniatures, glass paintings, and such was a clear stroke of genius,
because it cost only a fraction of what the equivalent models and
paintings would have done.  I call it genius because the producers
got their money's worth; the simulations are so obviously
simulations as to be disturbingly unrealistic.  Sure, they're vastly
better than what we see on our Apple and IBM PC screens.  But that's
not the point - if they're not good enough to pass as real, then
they aren't good enough to pass off as real.

The creature makeup was quite well done, but the Rylans' hairlines,
both male and female, smacked of Munchkins, and I couldn't suppress
a snigger when I first saw the girl beckoning to Alex to get out of
Centauri's car.  The effect was such as to belie any seriousness
that might have been intended in dealing with the Rylans.

Casting was reasonable.  The use of archetypical father figure Dan
O'Herlihy as Grig showed real thought, as did the casting of Robert
Preston, of "Music Man" fame, as the lovable con artist Centauri.
These two veteran character actors did more to save the film's shaky
credibility than all the others together, but even their superior
talents couldn't manage the job.

Sorry, folks, but it ain't worth it.  If you feel that you can't
live without seeing The Last Starfighter, then go to a bargain
matinee.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
       decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #143
Date: 19 Jul 84 1137-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #143
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jul 84 1137-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #143
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:
              Books - Barker & Ing & Zelazny & Cthulhu
              Films - Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? (3 msgs) &
                      Conan & "Elfquest" & 2010 & Dune (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 84 15:02:31-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Man of Gold

M.A.R. Barker started thinking up his imaginary world of Tekumel, we
are told, when he was 10 years old.  Tekumel is extraordinarily rich
in culture, geography, history, languages, and mythology and is
probably the first such creation that can justifiably be compared to
Tolkien's world with respect to the sheer volume of creative energy
that has gone into it.  Perhaps most appealing about it is that it
is not yet another medieval European clone-world, but is more
strongly influenced by a combination of Arabic, Hindu and
(curiously) Central American Indian languages and cultures.

But where Tolkien used the conventional forms of literature as his
public outlet for his mythology, Barker instead found his medium in
1975 in the then-infant medium of Fantasy Gaming, and published
"Empire of the Petal Throne".  Since then, the game has been
completely revised and rewritten and is published under the name of
"Swords and Glory".

This month, Barker's first novel of Tekumel, "Man of Gold", has been
published by Daw books.  As a first novel, it's not bad, but nothing
special.  The Young Hero is somewhat vapid (a common enough fault)
but the people around him are pretty interesting folks and everyone
has the unmistakably "alien" feel of a really different culture.
The resolution of the plot has a couple of interesting twists to it,
but I don't want to generate a spoiler.

The problem with the book is that Barker is rather more caught up
with showing you his world and giving you something of a travelogue
than he is interested in coming up with a really original or
interesting story.  He's not the first writer to have this problem
(Lichtenberg's Sime/Gen novels come to mind), but I was hoping for
more from such a creative fellow.  On the other hand, I already knew
a fair amount about Tekumel, and was glad to "visit" it again, so I
enjoyed it anyway.  To a reader new to his world, the reaction might
be either intrigue or utter confusion; I'd be interested to hear.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 15:25 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: "The Gunsel"

I have read and enjoyed both "Systemic Shock" and "Single Combat" by
Dean Ing. I have been told that there will be a third book out this
Fall, called "Wild Country" and that the series is called "The
Gunsel."

Can anyone confirm the existence of a third book?

Thanks,
Tom Perrine

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1984 10:20:59 EDT ( MONDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Zelazny etc

Zelazny's book based on the Hindu Pantheon is Lord of Light.
Speaking of Zelazny, has anyone heard anything more about his new
Amber novels?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 15:22:37-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Response to Cthulhu Mythos request. - (nf)

        I learned about the correspondence on the Cthulhu Mythos a
little late --- could someone mail me the original note with the
list of stories?
        Here are a few contributions. I hope one or two haven't
appeared on previous lists...

1) The Horror at Oakdene and Others by Brian Lumley (Arkham House
   1977)
   This contains 3 Mythos tales including the title story,
   "Aunt Hestor" and "Born of the Winds" which was later expanded
   into a novel (I think). Like most of Lumley's stuff they're
   interesting but not very special.

2) Lost Worlds by Lin Carter (Daw 1980)
   Two "posthumous collaborations" with Clark Ashton Smith,
   "The Scroll of Morloc" and "The Stairs In the Crypt" and
   "The Thing In The Pit".(notice the "Robert Blake" titles!)
   These are little fantasies in the style of C.A. Smith with
   references to the more obscure monsters like Gnopkehs, Voormis
   and Nyogtha.

3) Demons by Daylight by Ramsey Campbell (Jove/HBJ 1979)
   An uneven collection by in my opinion one of the best new
   Mythos writers. This has one piece related to the Mythos,
   "The Franklin Paragraphs", where the author pokes fun at
   his own stories and the Mythos in general.
4) New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos ed. Ramsey Campbell
                  (Arkham House 1980)
   contents:
   Crouch End by Stephen King
   The Star Pools bu A.A. Attanasio (passing references to names,
     etc)
   The Second Wish by Brain Lumley  (passing references)
   Dark Awakening by Frank Belknap Long (not bad)
   Shaft no. 247 by Basil Copper (again, only passing references)
   Black Man With A Horn by T.E.D. Klein (the best of the
     collection)
   Black Tome of Alsophocus by Martin Warnes (pos. coll. with
     Lovecraft ...not terribly interesting)
   Then Curse The Darkness by David Drake (nice story, but no
     further comment since I detest Drake's prose...)
   The Faces At Pine Dunes by Ramsey Campbell

          Michael Crichton's Eaters of the Dead mentions the
necronomicon in the appendix but is not really related to the Mythos
(great stuff, nevertheless!) Basil Copper's novel The Great White
Space pays clear tribute to At the Mountains of Madness, but does
not mention any Mythos names or books. The premise and atmosphere
are also distinctly Cthuloid.
                                        Bill H.
                                        pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 84 9:37:34-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction?

Can Star Wars really be considered science fiction?  The story takes
place a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away.  Although the
characters use technology the real focus is the mystical
pseudo-magical force.  The story strikes me as fantasy or science
fantasy.

Star Trek on the other hand takes place in our near future (which
makes it an optimistic story line -- humans will solve the problems
of today and advance and solve the problems of the future).  There
is a focus on the technology like the Enterprise, the transporter,
warp drive, phasers and similar devices and techniques.  Face it the
phaser seems like a more reasonable futuristic weapon than the light
sabre.

Hollywood seems only rarely to produce genuine science fiction (in
the case of Star Trek only because of trekkie pressure).  Situations
which seem like science fiction are only used as vehicles for
fantasy (Star Wars) or horror (Alien) or some more traditional
genre.

Who wouldn't break for whales?
Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 15:59:18-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!ames!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction?

> Can Star Wars really be considered science fiction?  The story
> takes place a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
> Although the characters use technology the real focus is the
> mystical pseudo-magical force.  The story strikes me as fantasy or
> science fantasy.

        I agree completely, and I think this confusion between STAR
WARS and real science fiction has caused a certain amount of unfair
criticism of the film. George Lucas, himself, (in an interview in
Rolling Stone) calls STAR WARS a "space fanatasy", and either that
or the more common "space opera" are the most accurate designations.
Yet much of what criticism there has been of SW condemns it for not
being "real" SF, even though it was clearly not intended to *be*
real SF. I have always managed to love the movie for what it is,
namely, the best damn space opera yet put on film.

> Hollywood seems only rarely to produce genuine science fiction (in
> the case of Star Trek only because of trekkie pressure).
> Situations which seem like science fiction are only used as
> vehicles for fantasy (Star Wars) or horror (Alien) or some more
> traditional genre.

        Sad, but true. Those most guilty of being unable to
distinguish between real SF and space opera are the Hollywood
producers, themselves, and the success of STAR WARS probably helped
confirm them in their airheaded idea of what SF is. Real SF films
continue to be made only once in a blue moon, and good ones even
less often. The only additional point I want to make is that this is
not the fault of SW or of Lucas, who made a wonderful film that some
silly people insist on mistaking for science fiction.

FRIENDS AND FOES: Note name-change     Kenn Barry
from "ames-lm" to "ames" in            NASA-Ames Research Center
UUCP address                           Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:              {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 11:42:17-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!brahms @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction?

In my opinion Star Wars is Science Fantasy.  Star Trek, 2001, 2010,
Silent Running, etc. are Science Fiction.

                -- Brad Brahms
                   usenet: {decvax,ucbvax}!trwrb!trwspp!brahms
                   arpa:   Brahms@USC-ECLC

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 84 14:35:47-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Conan (minor spoiler)

"Conan" was written by Conway and Thomas, comic-book writers, and it
shows.  Eventful, colorful, fast-paced, but you really gotta leave
your brains in the lobby.  Rather like a Dungeons and Dragon
adventure where there's only one effective character in the party.
This was the main problem: Conan surrounds himself with a thief, a
sorceror, a tough-willed fighter or two, and a Plucky Young Heroine,
but Conan is the only character who really gets to do anything
effective for the Quest.  In fact, he recruits the wizard because
"you need a wizard to fight wizardry", and then the wizard does
nothing effective the entire time they're in the evil wiz's nifty
ice palace.  Just not enough going on when Arnold isn't flexing his
biceps.  So as an "action-adventure" film, I'd only give Conan a
5.5.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 84 02:06:42 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Elfquest" movie

Nirvana Productions, which at one time was planning an animated
version of Wendy & Richard Pini's "Elfquest", is definitely not
making this film.  I heard this direct from the mouth of one of the
executives of the company.  The rights have reverted to the Pini's.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 84 10:43:42-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two

A question to the panel:

   The upcoming movie version of "2010" is, I realize, to be
released in December. I also realize that the original group of
"Odsseiers" are back for their second trek out to the gas giants.
However, could someone in the know answer the following question:
   Is Kubrick the Director????

   Should be a fun movie...I heard MGM spent a fortune
reconstructing the sets for the Discovery...it seems that the
original blueprints have been lost/destroyed/stolen/whatever.  So,
they painstakingly blew up several hundred frames from the original
film, and built the new sets from those...talk about going at it the
long way....
                - Rob DeMillo
                  MACC
Question: If all the world were brothers,
          would you let one marry your sister...?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 84 7:52:05-PDT (Sun)
From: sun!idi!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Request for cast of DUNE

References:
    I don't know what the actual cast for DUNE is, however I do
    still have the suggestions someone made about half a year back
    about what they SHOULD have been.  So without further ado.......
    (Steven Maurer)

The Associated Press yesterday released information concerning the
near completion of the movie version of Frank Herbert's "Dune".
They neglected to announce any casting information, so we at Mellon
Institute thought that we would fill this gap with our own
suggestions:

Baron Harkonnen         Jackie Gleason
        ("One of these days, Leto, a one way trip to 'da doon.  To
         'da doon, Leto!")

Emperor Shaddam         Ricardo Montalbon
        ("Ah, Reverend Mother, are you aware of the old Ixian
        proverb that says, 'Melange is a dish best served cold'?
        You know, it is very cold in spice.")

Duke Leto               Marlon Brando
        (pretentious, overbearing, has the respect of his men, and
        you only see him for the first 15 minutes of the film.
        "Paul, my son, you are going to another planet.  No wait, I
        did this line before...")

Reverend Mother         Joan Rivers
        ("Can we tawk?  You wanna tawk?  Here, stick your hand in
        this box...")

Liet Kynes              Ben Haggerty
        (man of the wild, knows everything about exobiology, but has
        a very common sense way of looking at things.  "Well, see,
        this sandtrout is, like, kind of like a vector, you see.
        He, uh, has this, um...")

Gurney Hallek           Alec Karras
        ("Gurney just pawn in game of life.")

Sandworm                Frank Oz

Stilgar                 Harrison Ford
        ("Shields may be one thing kid, but the sandworms will turn
        you into lunchmeat in a minute.  Give me chrysknife in a
        tight spot anyday.")

Doctor Yueh             Hunter S. Thompson
        (See also his treatise "Fear and Loathing on Arrakis")

Count Fenring           Marty Feldman
        ("I was the Sisterhoods closest attempt at the Kwisatz
        Haderach.  They got everything right except my future sight
        is a bit cockeyed.  They call me the Ersatz Haderach.")

Paul Muad'Dib           Muhhamed Ali
        ("I float like an ornithopter, and I sting like a
        hunter-seeker.  I'm the prettiest duke-apparent, and the
        protector of the weaker.  And if you mess with my Fremen,
        you better call on your Guard, C'oz I'll make you a target
        on my righteous Jihad.")

Princess Irulan         Loni Anderson
        (We don't care if she can't act, we just want to see her in
        an Imperial Bikini).

Chani                   Susan St. James
        (Ditto).

Feyd Rautha             Tom Selleck
        (We have to be fair).

Lady Jessica            Nancy Walker
        ("So.  You killed him.  You proud of yourself?  My son, the
        killer.  Oy, what would your father (may he rest in peace)
        say?")

Thufir Hawat            Hymie
        ("My first line approximation is for goodness and
        niceness.")

Beast Rabban            Bruce Weitz
        ("Okay, hairbag.  It's into the arena with you!")

Jamis                   David Carradine
        ("So grasshopper, you know about slipstyle boots.  Big deal.
        Let's see how you hold up in a tahaddi-challenge.")

Shadout Mapes           Eddie Murphy
        ("'Dis here's mah' castle, see, an' I don' wan' no dumbass
        honkeys fum Caladan messin' wif it, you hear?")

The theme song will be sung by Chrystal Gayle.
        ("Don't it make my brown eyes blue?")

Disrespectfully submitted by Dan Klein and Robert Zimmermann.
Casting for Dune Messiah (a.k.a "Jesus Christ Duneperstar") will
commence soon.

Bonus question: How many Fremen does it take to change a lightbulb?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 17:14:03-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!mgnetp!burl!clyde!watmath!jsgray @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dune Sequels -- It's "Muad'Dib"!  (minor flame)

I've seen it misspelled too many times!  Paul Atreides was
"Muad'Dib", not "Maud'Dib"!  (And how do *you* pronounce it?)

Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP) University of Waterloo (519) 885-1211
 x3870

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #144
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jul 84 1204-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #144
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:
        Books - The Adolescence of P1 & The Princess Bride &
                An Intriguing Contest & Upcoming Books (2 msgs),
        Films - Bakshi and Burroughs & Bladerunner (2 msgs) &
                Graphics in Films (2 msgs) & The Last Starfighter,
        Television - Dr. Who & The Outer Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 84 12:42:00-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!smu!jay @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: The Man who Ruled the World and - (nf)

"Adolescence of P1" is by Ryan.  Thomas or Paul or something.  Nice
story.  To bad he didn't explain how he derived those "routine
analyzer" programs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Jul 84 16:54:52-PDT
From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: the princess bride

does anyone know the author and publisher of the novel "The Princess
Bride"??  I am having trouble finding it.

marcy-bacups
doug

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 84 23:31:16-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Intriguing contest

Analog magazine is starting an interesting contest this month.  The
"Alternate View" column this issue was a speculation on the
existence of other universes (all universes are bubbles in N-space,
formed at the instant of the big bang, separated by an ocean of
H-space).  The author of the piece, John G. Cramer,was talking about
the concept with Gene Wolfe, who suggested that if there are other
universes, calling ours "the universe" is misleading : it ought to
have a name.

I now quote from the magazine :

        So, in order to correct this Name deficiency, I hereby
        announce the 1984 Analog _Name_The_Universe_Competition_ !
        The winner will receive a free one year subscription to this
        magazine and will, in addition, achieve the true immortality
        of having chosen the proper name of an important natural
        object, in this case the Universe in which we live.  Send
        your entries (one per letter please) to me care of Analog,
        380 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY 10017. Include your name
        and address, your suggestion for the Name of the Universe,
        and a brief statement of why you feel the Name is
        appropriate.  The winning Name and the name of the winner
        will be announced in a later Alternate View column (probably
        in early 1985).

        --John G. Cramer, "The Alternate View", Analog September 1984

How about it folks? Any takers?  Then again why name anything that
won't come when you call it...

Ted Nolan                     ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle         ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206
    ("We pray for one last landing on the globe that gave us birth..")

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 10:02:38-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: DEL REY HARDCOVERS: Fall 1984

Here are the DEL REY hardcover announcements for Aug-Nov 1984.  My
goodness, hardbacks are expensive.

        Mike

August: "Bearing An Hourglass -- Book Two of 'Incarnations of
        Immortality'" by Piers Anthony.  "Norton had lost both the
        child and the woman he loved.  So he didn't mind accepting
        when the position of Time was offered to him.  But what
        started as an enjoyable experience--living backwards, from
        present to past--became a war with Satan himself" 288 pages
        $13.95

September: "JOB: A Comedy of Justice" by Robert A.  Heinlein.
        "After a ritual fire walk in Polynesia, vacationer Alex
        Hergensheimer awakes to find the world changed: he is now
        Alec Graham, in love with the magnificent Margrethe.  Before
        long, his world changes again--then again and again.
        Whatever the changes, Alec finds two constants--the
        Apocalypse is coming, and he must bring Margrethe to a state
        of grace before the end..."  384 pages $16.95.  Special
        signed and numbered limited edition $75.00.

October: "The Bishop's Heir. Volume I of `The Histories of King
        Kelson'" by Katherine Kurtz.  "Kelson had been crowned king
        after a political and ecclesiastical upheaval.  Now a new
        faction threatened the stability of the young king's realm.
        Led by ex-archbishop Loris, this force believed the Deryni a
        party of heresy and witchcraft--and pledged to bring its new
        leader low..."  352 pages.  $14.95

November: "The Atlas of Pern" by Karen Wynn Fonstad, introduction by
        Anne McCaffrey.  "The first-ever volume of `Pernography'!
        To the faithful followers of Anne McCaffrey and `The
        Dragonriders of Pern' series, the world of Pern is as real a
        place as earth.  Now they can take an unprecendented tour of
        that world with a magnificent and completely detailed
        atlas."  176 pages.  $19.95.

November: "Lifeburst" by Jack Williamson.  "When Halo Station was
        attacked by aliens, one inhabitant was eager to leave: young
        Quin Dain wished to find his father and receive the Sunmark,
        symbol of fitness for life in space.  But once on Earth,
        Quin found himself framed for murder--and on the run from
        more than one evil adversary..."  288 pages.  $12.95

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 10:15:00-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Egbert Incident book

The Fantasy Association (a mostly-dormant fantasy fan organization)
has received the following book announcement from the Houghton
Mifflin Company.  All grammatical errors are reproduced as they
appear in the announcement (printed on red paper), so no flames to
me.

Re: DUNGEON MASTER: The Disappearance of James Dallas Egbert,III
    Publication Date: October 23, 1984.

When James Dallas Egbert,III disappeared from Michigan State
University in 1979, it was no ordinary college-boy drop out.  Egbert
was a computer genius at sixteen, a boy with an I.Q. of 180-plus,
and an extravagant imagination.  Dallas was a fanatic Dungeons and
Dragons player -- before the game was widely known and he and his
friends played a live version in a weird labyrinth of tunnels and
rooms that ran beneath the university.  These secret passages even
ran within the walls.  After Egbert disappeared there were rumors of
suicide, witch cults, drug rings, and homosexuality to try and
explain the mystery.

When the police search came to a dead end, the Egbert family called
in one of the most colorful and well-known private investigators of
our era, William C. Dear, of Dallas.

Dear's adventures and search for Dallas read like a sensational
novel, but every fact and detail is true.  Dear crawled into baking
hot tunnels, flew over the university campus in a helicopter, and
played D&D with a real Dungeon Master; he called into play every
intuition he could muster to try to out-psych and out-play the
brilliant game-playing mind of Dallas Egbert.

In the end, he did.  The story of the torturous search, the
discovery of the boy, his return to his parents -- and the final
tragedy -- is told here for the first time.

DUNGEON MASTER will be of particular interest to parents, educators,
psychologoists, and other role-playing game players.  Those involved
in the high-tech field and have experimented with D&D on their own
computers will be especially fascinated by this exciting story.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 12:56:52-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: bakshi and burroughs

> From:            Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
>
> I, for one, would much prefer that Bakshi didn't even know about
> Burrough's Mars books, unless, of course, he was willing to put up
> several miilion dollars of bond money to guarantee that he *fully*
> animated it, rather than taking the shabby shortcuts he's so fond
> of.  Rotoscoping, tinting old film footage, and skimping on the
> backgrounds are not my idea of good animation.  Personally, what
> with the improvements made with models and puppets, I'd much
> prefer to see these books done as live action, since no one will
> shell out the money to animate them well.
>                                               Peter Reiher

        The only movie I have seen by Bakshi is the recent "Fire and
Ice", which I thought was quite good.  When I originally posted the
idea of Bakshi doing Burroughs, it was with the idea in mind that he
do it the same way as he did "Fire and Ice."  Not flaming, just
clarifying my original idea... (I understand that his earlier movies
weren't as good).

        I would also like to see the stories animated fully: A
single movie per Martian book (although the 2nd and 3rd sort of go
together).  Some of the things I had in mind were the green
Martians, the martian cities, John Carter's strength and ability to
jump 50 feet....

Arnold Robbins
CSNET: arnold@gatech    ARPA:   arnold%gatech.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
UUCP: { akgua, allegra, ihnp4 }!gatech!arnold

Save the Arithmetic IF!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 3:28:18-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: BLADE RUNNER voice-overs

>> ...and one movie (Bladerunner) that was good SF but a mediocre
>> movie.

> Whoa, back off.  Bladerunner is one of the best movies ever made
> period, IF you ignore the voice-over.  The Hollywood movie execs
> killed it by turning adding the voice-over and turning it into a
> stupid 1940's style detective movie....
>
>               Ray Chen

Whoa, back off. How about us guys that *like* 1940's style detective
movies?? I, and some friends, thought that part of what made BLADE
RUNNER work was that its *film noire* style. I didn't find any
problem, per se, with the voice-over being in the film. The only
problem was in Ford's delivery of said voice-over.
        Besides, it wasn't the "Hollywood movie execs" that put the
voice-over into the film [talk about conspiracy paranoia]. The
fault, if you view it as such, rests in the hands of the
scriptwriters and the director.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 84 11:26:55-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movies in general (and BLADERUNNER)

Missed the original message, so I hope I'm not repeating.  Whether
Blade Runner was a good movie or not, it's a typically bad
adaptation of a book, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.  It's as
if someone reduced the plot to 3 sentences, then handed it to
someone else to expand back into a full length script.  Not only did
they leave out some of the nice things in the book, but the elements
they left in had no relevance to the movie plot.  Example: the
empathy test that involves showing photos to the suspected android.
The whole point in the book was that all the pictures showed death
or mistreatment of animals, and with nearly all animals on the verge
of extinction, any human would have great empathy for the animals.
In the movie, the picture of the nude woman is emphasized, but not
because she's lying on a bearskin rug, as in the book.  If you
didn't read the book, the whole scene doesn't make any sense.

Let's see what they manage to do to Dune.

Bill Kelly
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 84 11:53:55-PDT (Sun)
From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: THE LAST STARFIGHTER (COMPUTER GRAPHICS WORLD July 1984)

As I said in a recent article in net.movies, as a filmgoer my
reaction to all this digital *scene* simulation (not "digital
science simulation" -- that's what they do in NASA's Computational
Chemistry Group :-) ) is big deal.  That will continue to be my
reaction until they start doing something that couldn't be done by
the traditional techniques.  The generated scenes I have seen are
considerably lacking in a sense of depth just like all other 2D
animation techniques.

As a computer professional I have a certain interest in the systems,
techniques etc used to produce these images and indeed in and of
themselves some of the images are very beautiful but so far they
bring nothing new to the filmmakers art.

Comments?  Flames??

>From the TARDIS of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP,  decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc

"Nothing shocks me.  I'm an Engineer."

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 14:41:22-PDT (Mon)
From: sun!idi!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: THE LAST STARFIGHTER (COMPUTER GRAPHICS WORLD July 1984)

In the cas of TRON, the advantage to computer graphics over hand
animation was that you got to see the good parts at (Boston)
SIGGRAPH. Had I realized what a dumb movie the rest of it was, I'd
have skipped seeing it in a theater later on.
    Any chance for LSF trailers in Minneapolis next week?

        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 84 22:53:31 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "The Last Starfighter": Dan O'Herlihy

The last film Dan O'Herlihy made was "Halloween III: The Season of
the Witch".  He played the crazed mask-manufacturer who planned to
unloose chaotic Druid terror on an unsuspecting populace.  He was
much better in "Seconds", a science fiction film made in the
Sixties.  This film almost never receives any attention, which is a
pity.  It's a serious science fiction film based on the premise that
there are a bunch of folks out there who can, for a price, totally
alter your appearance.  Not just a little plastic surgery, but
turning middle aged Dan O'Herlihy to young Rock Hudson, voice and
all.  Of course, they have a few demands which they place on their
clients...  Anyway, Dan O'Herlihy was excellent in this film as a
middle aged man looking for a way out of a life he hated.  O'Herlihy
doesn't do much film work; I'm given to understand that he's more
active on the stage.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1984 10:20:59 EDT ( MONDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Zelazny etc

On TARDIS isomorphism: remember that Time Lords are telepathic.  The 
Doctor may have been able to deceive Sutek about his thoughts even if
Sutek did manage to control him.  For that matter, maybe Sutek's 
control wasn't nearly as complete as he thought.  The Doctor could 
have been fooling him.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 16:22:19-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: OL episode?

Yes, OL is in syndication all over the place.  It isn't currently
running in L.A. except occasionally in the dead of night as a
filler, but it cycles back to a regular schedule every couple of
years.  In some areas, OL has even run without commercials on the
local PBS affiliates.  Sometime soon I'll repost my "Outer Limits
Episode Guide" which gives a complete rundown on the entire program.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #145
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 84 1524-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #145
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:
                Books - Barker & Herbert & Cthulhu &
                        The Adolescence of  P1,
                Films - The Last Starfighter (5 msgs) & 
                        Saul Bass & Legend,
                Videos - Ghostbusters (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Man of Gold
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 84 14:01:25 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

On the whole, I agree with the review of M.A.R. Barker's first novel
of Tekumel.  The Young Hero IS vapid, but that doesn't interfere
with the story and setting.  I find it difficult to be unbiased
about a book like this since I'm already interested in the world of
Tekumel-- I have the impression that almost any passable novel set
in this mythos would find favor with me.

To make a comparison to another recent work, I enjoyed "Man of Gold"
much more than I have the first four books of "The Belgariad" (by
David Eddings).  This series sports an equally vapid Young Hero, and
the series as a whole is slow to develop, with entirely telegraphed
plot turns and a general feeling of straining for effect.  I think
Eddings is really trying to make his world as believable as Middle-
Earth; sadly, only the effort shows.

There's a problem with writing a novel based on a fantasy
role-playing game, of course, and this is that the novel may come to
resemble a transcript of a particular game.  (I know that Barker was
developing Tekumel long before FRP emerged, but the problem still
exists.) Plot devices and storylines may be lifted from gaming
(e.g., dungeon crawling) rather than developed along the original
and interesting paths allowed through the medium of a novel.  It has
also been pointed out to me that a novel presents the opportunity to
show real character development (e.g., greater wisdom and maturity),
rather than the acquisition of the trappings of power which takes
the place of development in gaming.  This problem is not limited to
novels based on FRP, of course; most "Sword & Sorcery" fantasy falls
down on this criterion.

Barker's "Man of Gold" escaped this trap for the first two-thirds of
the book.  There are plenty of interesting supporting characters,
each with drives and motivations of his/her own, and complex plots
revolving around the strictures of the alien cultures of Tekumel.
Unfortunately, the resolution of this web of intrigue relies upon
more conventional "Sword & Sorcery" plot units.  Even so, Barker
handles these in a creditable fashion.  There are some twists in the
final accounting which may be interesting or confusing depending on
the degree to which the reader is able to immerse himself in the
world.  Unfortunately, the book lacks a real sense of character
development (beyond the "S&S" trappings) for the Young Hero.  Still,
this is at least par for the course for fantasy, and the book is a
good read.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 6:29:33-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!perel
From: gut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dune Sequels

>I'm getting weary of hearing people call the Dune sequels
>"garbage".

I think that we may be in for a long fight about the value of
Herbert's writing.  I have TRIED to read anything Herbert wrote
other than DUNE.  My only recourse is to say that he is the worst
writer that I have attempted to read.  And that includes a lot of
garbage.  His characters are fractal-dimensional, his plots are
trivial and meaningless, and his stories are loaded with
pseudo-meaningful concepts.  Anyone can talk about the beginnings
and ends of the world, or hunger, or the evils of neverending
technocracy, or god, or other important issues.  Few can truly deal
with them.  Herbert is not one of the few.

>    .....Herbert creates a universe with fewer strokes than
>    most authors use to create a world.  .....

As far as I am concerned, the above is the most damning thing I
could say about Herbert except I would phrase it:
    "Herbert spends only a few strokes creating a universe when
     most authors lavish great care to create a world or an even
     smaller locale."

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute    University of Toronto
Usenet: {linus, ihnp4, allegra, decvax, floyd}!utcsrgv!perelgut
CSNET:  perelgut@Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 13:47:45 EDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #143
From: Todd Chronis <Chronis.Henr@XEROX.ARPA>

A Cthulhu Mythos related novel is The Philosopher's Stone by Colin
Wilson.  The mood, imagery and plot are in the tradition of ol'
H.P., and the author is a fine writter.  The author has other fine
works, one of which, The God of the Labyrinth can also be considered
a fantasy.  His only science fiction work, The Space Vampires is
best left unread.

~ Todd

------------------------------

From: Joe Buck <buck@NRL-CSS>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 84 14:08:13 EDT
Subject: routine analyzer in "Adolescence of P1"

...is nothing but a disassembler. By fast talking, Ryan is
essentially saying that disassembling code is tantamount to
understanding it.  There are a number of other serious flaws in his
explanation of P1 as well, though I still enjoyed it.

A much better book on the same topic is Hogan's "The Two Faces of
Tomorrow".

-Joe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 84 08:10 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman%SWW-WHITE@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Last Starfighter

    Personally, I found TLS to be more than a little bit
disappointing.  As with the first time I saw Star Trek I, I walked
in expecting to like the film and spent the next couple of hours
trying my damnedest to do so.  It was a losing battle.

    The parallels to Star Wars are obvious, at least to me.  Young
boy in insignificant backwater town (world) desperately wants to get
away and do something significant.  He encounters wise old character
(Robert Preston) who tries to talk him into getting involved in
saving the universe from an ultimate evil which hangs around in a
super warship.  At first he balks, but changes his mind when his
family and friends are threatened (yeah, I know they were killed in
Star Wars; so it's not a PERFECT clone).  Wise friend is killed by
representative of ultimate evil.  Then he goes out and saves the
free world from a fate worse than death.  All to some music which
could have come out of John Williams after a particularly sloppy
lobotomy.

    Some complaints: everybody is just so cute you want to scream.
No personality anywhere; nothing but white bread as far as the eye
could see.  No real, believable threats anywhere.  It all had to be
done using surprise, with creatures jumping from behind buildings.
(Want to see a good, evil scene? Remember the scene in Star Wars
where Vader prepares to interrogate the Princess with that nasty
little machine floating into the cell behind him?  Crash of cell
door and soldiers boots crunching by.)  The final space battle was
pretty sad, especially the Ultimate Weapon.  Bringing Robert Preston
back at the end was a cheap shot, especially considering the fact
that his death was the real motivation for our hero's deciding to
get involved.  As a friend of mine pointed out upon leaving the
theatre, it looked more like a television pilot than a feature film.

                                        Hank Shiffman
                                        Symbolics, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 84 14:41 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Cc: rani%leichterj.DEC@purdue-merlin.arpa
Subject: The Last Starfighter (tLSF?)

Gee, this was a nice film. It was such a simple film, and so
superficially naive and plain, I sorta wonder why it worked. So I
thought of a corollary contest to the one I thought of earlier, that
is:

Name important plot or character items that if missing from a
story/movie would cause it to sink (stink).

** spoiler **

If tLSF did not:

1. have the centurian character to offset the plainess of the rest
   of the cast, we would have had a boring simple film. The sort of
   river-city medicine man huckster was a necessary spice. I have
   not seen his type in SF for quite a while (unlike the Yoda-type
   who has become so prevalent that when he was in the SW movie, he
   was a big yawn).

2. Humor. If this film did not occasionally let us laugh at its
   naivete we would have gotten sick (those of us over 7 years that
   is). But things like "you are having a bad dream", or "Gee, it is
   just like ET", lets the filmakers share an inside joke with them.
   (indeed I think the hand-shaking scene at the end was a
   deliberate spoof on Close Encounters, glad to see the director
   appreciates people who think!)

So, to expand my challenge, think up plot and character changes that
you think could either rescue novels/movies that almost worked, or
if you feel the perverse pleasure, think of interesting ways to
destroy classic books or movies.
                                        - Steve Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 11:10:06 EDT
From: OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: The Last Starfighter

I know it's ridiculous, but Grig reminded me a lot of Grandpa
Munster.  The picture(s) of his family was a nice touch.  What did
he call his kids?
                                        Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS)
"Now you look human!"

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1984 11:52:32-EDT
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc

Did Maggie's grandma look familiar to you?  As I sat there trying to
figure out where I'd seen that face before, my husband leaned over
and whispered, "The grandmother is an alien from Star Trek".  He was
right - remember the show called "The Menagerie", where it's mostly
a flashback about the former captain of the Enterprise, (currently
nothing but a head due to an unfortunate space accident), exploring
a planet where the aliens create illusions in people's minds?
Granny was the Head Alien!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 84 12:10:05 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Dan O'Herlihy

Whoops.  I was mistaken.  Dan O'Herlihy was not in "Seconds" (still
a good movie, though).  He did, however, receive a nomination for an
Oscar for best actor for Luis Bunuel's "The Adventures of Robinson
Crusoe" (in the title role, of course).
                                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 19 Jul 1984 10:43:47-PDT
From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Media Graphics,
From: MK01/2N25, DTN:264-5090)
Subject: Re: "QUEST" AND SAUL BASS

> Saul Bass is the fellow responsible for the credit sequences of
> the James Bond films, and many other films.

Maurice Binder is responsible for the titles of all the Bond films,
except for one of the early ones, perhaps Dr. No.  I don't remember,
off hand.  "Never Say Never Again" had titles designed by someone
else, too.  I think they were done by R. Greenberg (sp?) Assoc.
Saul Bass designed titles for many films in the 60's, like "Charade"
"It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World."  He directed the film "Phase 4."

Randy Dearborn
Digital Media Services
SAGE::DEARBORN
Merrimack, NH 03054
603-884-5090

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 19 Jul 1984 12:37:36-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Brendan E. Boelke)
Subject: LEGEND

        According to the reports I saw when the fire first occured
(in the Boston Globe), the fire will have no effect on LEGEND, but
the next Bond movie has been delayed 3-6 months.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 16:00:44-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video

Terri Garr is the very last person to appear in the video, and a lot
of stations cut it before she comes on.  But she is there, honest.
                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 3:42:04-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video

> The following people are in the "Ghostbusters" video:
>
>        ...[various names]
>        Teri Garr
> Dennis Gibbs

> I was at home last night when the Ghostbusters video came on.  In
> order to once and for all settle the burning question, 'just who
> are those people in the chorus?', I made me a leetle list. In
> Order:
>       ...[various names]
>       Terry Garr
>
>               Ken Fishkin

After I saw Dennis Gibbs' posting, I said to myself, "Nah, that
isn't Terri Garr, is it?" In the time between then and now, when I
read Ken Fishkin's posting making the same identification, I have
seen the video three times. That is definitely *not* Terri Garr!!!
I'm not *positive* who it is, but my original guess, which I stick
by now, is that it's Christie Brinkley.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 10:40:46-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hopd3!dvw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: "Ghostbusters" video

I think that person who "looks like Eddy Grant" (and he dosen't, by
the way) is George Clinton.

Diane Wilkerson
..!hopd3!dvw

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 10:45:46-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hopd3!dvw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video

No, it's Teri Garr.  And the last walk-on in the video is the second
appearance of Chevy Chase flipping a lighted cigarette in his mouth.

Diane Wilkerson
..!hopd3!dvw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #146
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 84 1551-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #146
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:

        Books - Constructed Worlds (3 msgs) & Dent & Jokes,
        Films - Bakshi and Burroughs & Is Star Wars SF (3 msgs) &
                Elfquest & Computer Effects

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 84 12:13:40 PDT (Thursday)
From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: constructed worlds vs. designed worlds
To: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab@UCB-VAX.ARPA

Niven's "Integral Trees" world is a slightly different beast from
what we have been talking about.  The "constructed worlds" were all
built by characters in the fictional universe.  The "Integral Trees"
world is a natural phenomenon in its fictional universe.  The two
ideas are similar because the author has to go through a similar
design process for both.

I suggest we call the designed-but-NOT-built category "designed
worlds".

In this category, the canonical example is Mesklin, from Hal
Clement's "Mission of Gravity".  Bob Forward has recently put out
two excellent examples: "Dragon's Egg" and "The Flight of the
Dragonfly".  Any other memorable examples?

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 5:06:17-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!lgond
From: or @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: constructed worlds

How about Niven's fact article "Bigger than Worlds"?  This appeared
in an anthology of his (A Hole in Space? my memory fails me) some
time ago and described a variety of constructed worlds.  The
Ringworld, by the way, was only middle-sized by his reckoning
(imagine a Dyson sphere around a galactic core!).

On a smaller scale, there are A. Gilliland's Rosinante novels, where
most of the action takes place on O'Neill-type space habitats
(munditos, in his terminology).

Les Gondor, U of Toronto CSRI
{cornell,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,decvax!utzoo}!utcsrgv!lgondor
"Strange women lying in ponds and distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government!"

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 20 Jul 84 8:27:57 EDT
Subject: ConstructedWorlds

Moonbow wasn't the first torusworld; that belongs to Larry Niven,
from PROTECTOR; it was called Kobold, and it had a miniplanet in the
donut hole if I recall.  I had trouble with Kobold; it didn't seem
large enough to have appreciable gravity.  On the other hand, the
Protector who built it (crazy Jack Brennan) had sufficient gadgetry
to provide the equivalent of artificial gravity, but I don't think
Niven stated it that plainly.  The best part of Protector is
perhaps the snippet of dialog I imprecisely quote here, between the
man and the woman when Brennan goes off and leaves them to wander
freely on Kobold with the warning, "Don't open any locked doors.
Remember Bluebeard."

[She]:  "What did he mean, 'Remember Bluebeard?'"
[Truesdale]: "He meant, 'REALLY don't open any locked doors.'"

Not one person in ten understands the allusion; I myself only heard
the story at a boy scout campout at age 12.  I wonder if the
Bluebeard story is in print somewhere...

--Jeff Duntemann   duntemann.wbst@xerox   RF: KB2JN

PS: At the risk of sounding wearisome, let me repeat: Constructed as
in BUILT.  The Smoke Ring from Niven's INTEGRAL TREES was a natural
consequence of a peculiar stellar system.  Nobody went out and put
it together with a wrench.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 12:39:33-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Dent's fiction formula

I'm trying to locate a copy of an article by prolific pulp writer
Lester Dent.  The article was entitled "My Adventure Fiction Master
Plot" or some such.  I think it was published in The Writer's
Handbook in an early-1950s edition.

Has anyone seen this?

Hopefully,
D Gary Grady
Duke University Computation Center, Durham, NC  27706
(919) 684-4146
USENET:  {decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 07:05:04 PDT (Friday)
From: Chapman.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #142

I was much amused by the Larry Niven Lightbulb jokes. (So was Larry.
I showed them to him last night.) When I showed them around the
LASFS (Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society) last night someone
suggested that a similar set might be generated for Gordon R.
Dickson's stories. Gordy will be the Guest of Honor at this year's
World Science Fiction Convention in Anaheim, and SFWA is sponsoring
a roast during the con.  Anybody like to contribute?

Cheryl Chapman
Guest of Honor Relations
LAconII

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Jul 84 00:35:35 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Bakshi and Barsoom

Although "Fire and Ice" was better than many of his other films, I
found it far from satisfying in its implied promise to animate
Frazetta.  The animation quality was noticably better than Saturday
morning stuff, but nothing special.  When I say "full animation", I
don't mean shooting the whole book, or even using animated footage
throughout (though that is a prerequisite).  I mean using the kind
of care for every detail that is evident in the best Disney animated
films, such as "Pinocchio" and "Snow White".  Nobody does that any
more, including Disney (well, maybe the long awaited "The Black
Cauldron" will change that).  Don Bluth did a close approximation on
"The Secret of NIMH".  Unless at least that standard of care in
animation is used, I don't want to see Bakshi defiling books I have
fond memories of.  I think that live action special effects have
progressed enough to allow a reasonable job to be done on Burrough's
Mars stories, at least much better than is economically feasible
with animation.
                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1984  9:09:30 EDT (Friday)
From: Vicki Kanrek <vkanrek@BBNCCF.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Science Fiction?
Cc: vjk@BBNCCF.ARPA

Well..,no.  Lucas, if I remember the quote correctly, is closest to
the 'true definition' of SW (ALL THREE!) when he calls (or whoever
calls) it a 'space opera'.  As a Wagnerite from way, way back, the
story, as it were, of SW IV-VI, is too closely akin to Wagner's Der
Ring Des Nibelungen (written in the 19th century, and taken from
Norse mythology from TRULY WAY, WAY back!).  To top off the
similarity, which almost made me pee despite getting wrapped up in
the emotion of the moment, when Luke lights Darth Vader's (excuse
me, Anakin Skywalker's) funeral pyre, John Williams, in his
inimitable plagiaristic style, actually cites part of the so-called
"immolation motif" from Gotterdammerung, the last opera of Wagner's
tetralogy.

Wagner's "Ring" has been set in many different time periods of late,
especially in Europe; to the dismay of some die-hard and purist
Wagnerites.  The latest in terms of most-advertised version is the
Chereau directed and Boulez conducted Ring that was broadcast on PBS
last year.  About 3-5 years prior to that, the Ring was actually set
(sets and costumes!) in the 'science fiction/fantasy future', space
helmets, suits, and Vader-like respirators and all.  So, you see,
Lucas is certainly not the first to pick up on the Wotan/Odin myth.
(For those of you into the Greek version, we're talking Thor, Zeus,
etc. - I'm not up on my Greek mythology at ALL -- too much keeping
track of the Norse, Wagner-German and modern day (i.e., Lucas)
details.)  Considering the ONLY thing that originally got me in to
see Star Wars was the fact that Alec Guinness was in the movie, it's
amazing that (a) when the movie was over I was SO taken by it that I
couldn't figure out which role was Giunness' since the movie was so
great and (b) I have now become an absolutely die-hard Star Wars
person, vacillating in 'hero'-worship between Ben and Darth. (Ben
turned out to be such a jerk - please pardon me.  Vader almost
turned out to be a simp - I'm getting too cynical in my old age)
But, really and truly, I love ALL these films.  BUT I don't want to
see another one come out - it simply couldn't live up to the first
two and the majority of the last one (I HATED the inclusion of the
Muppet Show!)

Well, this was supposed to be a generally positive statement and I
unfortunately got too caught up in some details that used to bother
me a lot, and now, although I wanted to state them, I have to temper
it with the fact that I don't care about the inconsistencies or
grade-school mentalities that sometimes crop up in these movies - I
just plain love 'em just the way they are!!

Vicki Kanrek
("I've kissed Leonard Nimoy! At 14, my life was complete!!")

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 09:46:09 PDT (Friday)
From: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction?
Cc: Poskanzer.pa@XEROX.ARPA (SmegmaLord)

"In my opinion, \Invasion of the Killer Tomatoes/ can not really be
considered \science fiction/ but rather \speculative science
fantasy/ or perhaps more accurately \satirical pseudo-scientific
political fantasy horror/.  This confusion of genres may explain the
unwarranted and impertinent criticism that this fine movie has
received."

Elmer T. Usenetter
Chairman, Committee Against Redundant Genre Diatribes Committee

Perry

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 20 Jul 84 13:27:12 EDT
Subject: Star Wars is indeed Science Fiction

There isn't a blamed thing in the Star Wars saga to remove it from
our own (albeit remote) future save Lucas's idiotic "Long, long ago
in a galaxy far away..."  Nor is there any reason to put it anywhere
but in our own remote future; why people insist on the fairy tale
prelude escapes me.  Consider The Stainless Steel Rat books, which
take place in our universe umpty-ump thousand years from now, so
that the word "earth" is a synonym for soil and not the name of any
given planet.  (Until DeGriz gets to ride a time machine back to Old
Earth, or Dirt, or whatever the name of the place was...)

There's no way to draw lines between science fiction and non-science
fiction without valid arguments that the lines ought to be drawn
elsewhere.  The internal consistency argument is actually a means of
drawing a line between good writing and bad writing; both SW and ST
fail that test, but whereas I'd grade Star Wars at about 55%, Star
Trek gets a zero for not even bothering to try.

What I suspect is bothering people about Star Wars is the intention
that it be nothing beyond an adventure story.  Well, yeah, that
bothers me too--BUT, considering that Star Trek is really nothing
more than All My Children: 2300AD, I'd say Star Trek is not science
fiction either, but (bad) soap opera with pointed ears.

Damned little media work passes my own personal litmus test for
science fiction, which involves a high level of internal
consistency, "not offending the known", and working from a set of
reasonable premises toward a reasonable theme.  Neither "Cowboys on
Mars" (Star Wars) nor "All My Children: 2300AD" passes the test.  On
the other hand, not many books pass it either.

I think it's a thoroughly stupid thing to throw packets after,
bottom line.  Let's argue about something else.

--Jeff Duntemann   duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 09:42:40 PDT (Friday)
From: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: "Elfquest" movie

> Nirvana Productions, which at one time was planning an animated
> version of Wendy & Richard Pini's "Elfquest", is definitely not
> making this film.

Indeed.  According to the Pini's (via the Elfquest Fanclub
Newsletter), Nevana wanted to do (some portion approaching the whole
of) the film in live action, which the Pini's found repugnant to say
the least.  In addition, the Pini's claim that Nirvana was reluctant
to revert the rights and only threats of legal action goaded them
into doing the right thing.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 10:46:20 PDT (Friday)
From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Computer Efx vs. Std Efx

There were many scenes in TLS that could NOT have been done with
conventional model techniques. these fall into several classes:

1) Painted or metalic ships. Models have to be shot against blue
screen for matting. This restricts the colors that the ships can
have. Note that Star Wars used White ships almost exclusively. (Ron
Cobb had some difficulty convincing the powers that be that space
ships really could be different colors).

2) Complex moves. Some actions are impossible or very difficult to
film with models. TLS used some very long pull backs that would have
required camera tracks several hundred feet if they were done with
models. Also some of the rolls, etc would have been impossible with
models needing supports. Computer space is nearly infinite and there
are no strings or supports to hide.

3) Lots of Ships. Model shots with lots of ships require lots of
matting and this results in a degradation of film quality (plus
matte lines, etc.) The armada scene in TLS had many more ships than
Revenge /return/ of the Jedi armada. The ships in TLS also had more
movements and interactions. These would have been impossible with
models.

4) Lack of Mattes. Starfighter used very few OPTICAL mattes. There
were many 'mattes' done in the CRAY. Starfields, moons, multiple
ships were sometimes done in several passes and the resulting
bitmaps were merged within the CRAY. This resulted in much cleaner
composites than could be done with opticals.

5) Details. The ships in TLS had much more detail and realistic
detail than SW, etc. Ron Cobb (the Art Director) is a NASA artist
and took much of the weaponry out of Space and Aviation Week. Also
the pilots inside the ships actually move. Try that with models.
(then again try to notice it while the ship streaks past.)

6) Laws of Physics: The computer doesn't know about Newton or
Einstein.  Objects can do nearly anything you want them to. Two
objects passing thru each other or one shape evolving into another
are two neat efx that Starfighter didn't use but could be done.

Drawbacks of DSS: 1) it is too crisp. There was not enough time to
add dirt to all the ships or use other techniques to cover the extra
sharp images that computers generate.

2) Explosions. TLS explosions look like rejects from Battlestar
Galactica. They were real pyrotechnics filmed by Apogee. Digital
Prod.  Scanned them into the CRAy memory and matted them together.
Blah.  Simulated explosions are still impossible to do
realistically.

3) Motion Blur. Real objects and some model shots will blur on the
film.  The simulations and many model shots suffer from 'temporal
aliasing' ie you see the ship in two places at once. This is a
difficult problem but one which is close to being solved (ILM claims
to have a method).

For some other examples of Digital Productions work see: Pontiac
Fiero commercial, AT&T blue bits and sphere closing, Sony Walkman
commercial (just won a Cleo), Devo videos She's out of Sync and
Peek-a-Boo, CBS wednesday night movie opener, and 2010's Jupiter in
motion.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #147
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 84 1612-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #147
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 22 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 15:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1984 09:57:49 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: ST III

Decommissioning Enterprise isn't all that surprising in light of two
points: One, it was in pretty sorry shape after ST II.  Hardly worth
spending the money to repair it under those conditions.  It could
easily be cheaper to scrap it.  Second, it could never be fitted
with transwarp drive.  As you may recall from numerous episodes,
(Changling, etc), the ship's structure is not capable of handling
speeds greater than warp 8 for more than maybe a few minutes.  Under
the circumstances, it's not all that surprising that they would
decide to decommission rather than repair it.  My apologies to all
of you who dote on the Enterprise and can't stand to see it go.

Seeing the Enterprise destroyed by a Klingon scout is also not that
startling.  Enterprise had not, as you may recall, been fully
repaired.  At best, Scott had managed to jury rig the systems so
that they would function after all the damage Enterprise had
suffered in ST II.  He simply didn't have time to do any more.

As someone pointed out, in the novel, the Genesis material is left
on the Genesis planet.  I don't remember whether it is beamed aboard
Enterprise or whatever-the-heck the other ship was called, but both
ships were destroyed, so could have gone with it.  Not to have a
backup copy seems silly though, so I suspect that it'll reappear
sometime.

Enough said.  I think this topic is beginning to resemble a dead
horse.  Perhaps we should wait until the next movie and see what
happens then?

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Jul 84 11:31:24-EDT
From: Bernard  Gunther <BMG@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: old naval ships

In the recent debate about decomissioning the enterprise after only
20 years of service, it is interesting to remember that in 1914, the
German high command gave a ship to the Turkish navy.  (they used
this ship to bring Turkey into the war, but that's another story).
Anyway, this ship was used in the shelling of Cyprus in 1971 (yes
71) and unless I'm mistaken, it is still in active service.  This
would make the ship 70 years old.

If a pre-WWI ship is still a ship capable of fighting effectively
and being used in active combat, then there is no real reason why a
ship of the Enterprise's caliber can't still be effective, even
though it is 20 years old.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1984 12:51:20 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: ST III

From a friend of mine not on the network:
   If you could, how about piping this into the net.

   Regarding comments about Kirk's fate as will be determined by
Starfleet (no doubt).  First of all, Kirk will not be executed.  As
we know from the episode, "The Menagerie," there is just one death
penalty left on Starfleet's books: General Order Number
Seven--visitation of Talos IV.  So Kirk will not be executed.  But,
what then?
   The problem is, the producers of Trek have put viewers on an
emotional roller coaster which--in all fairness and in all
likelihood--will stop with the upcoming movie(s).  I mean, first
Spock is cold and heartless (apparently) in STTMP and Kirk can not
command as he used to.  Then Kirk meets his son and Spock dies in
STII.  But wait.  Miracle of miracles, Spock has been (in some
sense, and no comments, please, because I am generalizing terribly)
brought back to life.
   Come on.  Enough already.  I mean, I haven't even mentioned
David's seemingly unnecessary death, or Enterprise's demise.  Let's
stabilize, if only just for one movie.
   But if we stabilize events too quickly in STIV, the movie will
probably be awful.  Witness: "Oh hi, Jim.  How's it going?  By the
way, nice job out at Genesis.  'Preciate it.  Oh, one more thing.
Would you like another ship?  Yes?  Sure, no problem, here are the
keys."
   Of course, under (almost) no circumstances will it be that bad,
but it could be close.  So, will Kirk hang (figuratively) or not?
If he does, Trek suffers and we are back on the roller coaster.  If
not, Trek might suffer because of complete and utter lack of
realism.
   Question for the person on the net with the naval knowledge: If
Kirk were to, say, go on an incredibly dangerous and important
mission (Starfleet having absolutely no recourse but to use Kirk),
and he succeeded, could there realistically be some lesser sentence
levied against Kirk?  Say a year or two in prison, or some such
punishment?

   With any luck at all, by the way, Excelsior will blow up on its
first trial run.  (My apologies to those of you who found the ship
beautiful and exciting.)  I loved Enterprise and was sorry to see it
go.  But I have accepted her demise now, and I think it was good
because it was drastic and unexpected, and that made for good drama.
But Excelsior represents the cause of NCC 1701's demise, in my
imagination--gotta blame it on something, don't you?
   Also, it was obvious to me that Enterprise was decommissioned so
as not to add to Kirk's charges.  I mean, at least he destroyed a
ship which was to be decommissioned, not one that was going out
again.  Of course, I also found it hard to swallow that Starfleet
would decommission Enterprise.  It just didn't seem to make sense,
But it has been suggested that Fleet has been attempting to break up
the Enterprise crew; this could be their way of doing just that.
And maybe, just maybe, Enterprise would have ended up being
REcommissioned instead.  Get Kirk out of the way, and then make a
spontaneous (planned) decision to put Enterprise back in space.

   Star Trek IV already has a great responsibilty: it must answer
the many questions raised in ST III.  If ST IV fails--and it
might--then ST III might be classified a waste of time and money,
and the cause of Trek's eventual decommissioning.  And knowing
Paramount, and some others involved in production, ST IV has a very
good chance of failing, and failing badly.  Let's hope it all works
out.  ST can die, or it can live.  There's no telling what its fate
will be.  I am not optimistic, but I am hopeful.
   May the wind be at our backs, and at the backs of the producers,
writers, et. al.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 84 14:32:16 EDT
From: Ed <Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk

Yes, Kirk's middle name WAS revealed, but not in the series. It was
given in one of the ST cartoons (which one exactly, I can't
remember).

Looking for better things to do with Saturday mornings,
-Ed.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 18 Jul 84 04:09:24-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: TREK & courts martial

   ^^^^^^^^ Military disobedience, France, and Star Trek ^^^^^^^^

Don't know if it's true or not, but I recall reading somewhere,
sometime, that in French military practice a soldier who disobeys an
order (in battle?) is indeed executed-- unless his action leads to a
successful outcome to the engagement, in which case he is not only
pardoned, but awarded a special medal.

Assuming this is true, and that Starfleet draws upon a
multi-national tradition, and that the TREK producers are familiar
with the French practice-- all of which assumptions are shaky-- 'ol
James T. could come out smelling like roses yet again.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 84 15:49 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: More constructed worlds

ST III: The Search for Sequels: The clunkata-clunkata sound effects 
for the Trans-Warp drive might have been dumb, but that scene got a 
big laugh from the moderately large weeknight audience we were in.

                        "Who are you?"
                        "The new Number Two"
                        - Michel

Arpa: Denber.WBST@Xerox UUCP: <buncha weird names & exclamation marks>
RF: KB2BQ

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1984 01:20:25-EDT
From: Walter.Smith at CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Ship numbering

Enterprise: NCC-1701
Excelsior:  NX-2000

NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract (according to Franz
Joseph Designs, anyway).  What, if anything, does NX stand for?

Walter Smith
ARPANet: wrs@cmu-cs-spice

------------------------------

Date: 18-Jul-84 13:19:37-EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery,524-1416)
Subject: Enterprise age and decommissioning

        Someone pointed out earlier that the Enterprise was being
used as a cadet trainee ship at the beginning of STII, and most
ships relegated to that status are on their last legs (er,
thrusters).

        The novelization for STII states that 15 years have passed
since the events in STTMP.  This makes Enterprise 22 1/2 years old,
at least.  (More, since we know Christopher Pike captained it for a
time, and perhaps (if you hold with the animated series) Robert
April did as well.  As I remember the Counter-Clock Incident (in
book form), Captain April commanded for something like 2 1/2 years.
(That could be wrong -- memory serves, but not often.)  Anyone know
how long Pike commanded?

        If we use 2 1/2 years for both, that makes Enterprise 27 1/2
years old.  Young, yes, but...


(1)     Enterprise was one of the first Constitution Class vessels
        made.  We saw maybe 8 in the entire series.  What if they
        made 8 of them and then dropped the class because of
        problems (forseeable ones, maybe?  see below).
(2) The shape of Excelsior, that everyone's upset at: Maybe it's a
        NECESSARY shape for transwarp.  Given that Enterprise has
        shown the need for fast engines, making her a transwarp
        vessel would be a high priority.  BUT WHAT IF SHE'S THE
        WRONG SHAPE FOR SOME REASON?

(3) Someone complained about the Bird of Prey being able to knock
        out Enterprise so easily.  Remember that (1) Khan gave her
        quite a beating, and (2) Starfleet wasn't fixing her.
        Scotty couldn't, either, because (1) he'd need base
        equipment that he wouldn't be allowed to use, and (2) even
        if he could do without, he couldn't be on Excelsior and
        Enterprise at the same time.  That automation stuff was
        probably designed for use during the refitting (so she
        wouldn't have to be fully crewed just to move her around the
        dock).

(4) Possibly already way out of date.  I saw a prediction that if we
        didn't sit back on our haunches, we might have FTL by the
        turn of the century.  (I don't think we'll make it.  Zefrem
        Cochrane, where are you?)  If we were to make it, 1980s
        space probes and exploratory vessels, YOUNGER THAN
        ENTERPRISE by the dating I gave, would be out of date.

        Anyone else want to beat this dead horse?

                Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw
                  6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131

                  Witness, n.  To watch and learn, joyously.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1984  14:29 PDT (Thu)
From: Tony Li <Tli@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
To: Jacob.Butcher@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: james TIBERIAS kirk

No, Kirk's middle name is revealed in "The Making of Star Trek".

My favority piece of ST trivia is the name of Kirk's wife.

LL+P,
Tony ;-)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 84 10:41:27-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!intelca!cem @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk

What about the episode where Kirk is court martialed for ejecting
the guy in the pod on yellow alert, I think you know the episode I
am relating to, when Kirk takes the stand and puts his palm on the
computer lie detector, doesn't it read out his entire record
starting with his FULL name ?

Chuck                          - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - -
{ihnp4,fortune}!Dual\         All opinions expressed herein are my
{proper,idi}-> !intelca!cem   own and not those of my employer, my
ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/           friends, or my avacado plant. :-}
                        ARPAnet    : "hplabs!intelca!cem"@Berkeley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #148
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 84 1212-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #148
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Jul 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:
       
       Books - Brunner & Herbert (2 msgs) & Niven & Varley &
               Zelazny & Story Request & Bluebeard & Jokes (2 msgs),
       Comics - Dent,
       Films - 2010 & The Last Starfighter & Dune,
       Videos - Ghostbusters (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jul 84 01:41:04-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: Book Review:  "Crucible of Time", by John Brunner.

Nano-review:  Boooorrrrriiinnnnggg

review:

This is John Brunner's attempt to come up with a consistent,
interesting, alien civilization, ala Forward's Chella, or
Niven/Pournelle's moties.  He succeeds in being consistent, I guess.
There are two main problems with this book, the first (as someone
else on this list has already pointed out) is that the characters
die just as they become interesting (and on to the next generation).
The second, more serious problem is that the characters don't
succeed in being alien.  I mean, here we have a bunch of creatures
without skeletons and whose civilization is based on bio-technology
instead of engineering.  Pretty alien, huh?  Nope.  You have to keep
reminding yourself that these are funny aliens and not a lost earth
colony or whatever.  They act exactly human, with the one exception
that no one ever doubts the possibility of leaving the planet (the
first earthlings to suggest such ideas were certainly scoffed at!),
and this is never explained.  I find this distressing, since Brunner
is usually so good as creating alien cultures (even when they are
human).  Sigh.  He has some fun with cliches though...

BillW

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 13:10 PDT
From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Paul-Muad'dib and saying his name

I think Muad'dib is pronounced "mooAHd(e)dib".  The mark between
"Muad" and "Dib" is a schwa-E like sound.

Of course, I am probably wrong.  Anyone out there know Arabic?

 William Woody

"Someday I'll figure out what is going on around here.  The shock'll
kill me."

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 84 1:23:30-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Paul-Muad'dib and saying his name

Since the name is not written in Arabic, I can only guess at the
spelling.  Since he is some sort of a prophet, I assume mim damma
waw hamza fatha dal tashdid kasra ba' is meant.  This word means
educator and in certain parts of North Africa a mu'addib is a
teacher in a Koran school.

Pronounce it m followed by long u sound (u in German Blume) followed
by a glottal stop (tt as in Boston pronunciation of bottle) followed
by a as in Frenchman followed by dd (as in they paid Dan, not like
they pay Dan) follwed by i as in did followed by a b souned
(swallowed a little more than in English -- hard to describe but
English b is acceptable).

Who wouldn't break for whales?
Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jul 84 01:56:39-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: Book review:  "The Integral Trees" by Larry Niven.

Micro-review: A good read, if a trifle shallow.  Wait for the
paperback.

Review: My library had this in the new books section, so I picked it
up.  This story takes place in a gas torus around a neutron star.
I'm not up on my physics in this area, but apparently such a thing
can exist, and the gas densities are high enough at points to
support life.  So Mr Niven has this big gas ring where a ramship has
deposited (against its will) a bunch of colonists a couple of
hundred years ago.  Said colonists have evolved/decivilized and are
finding the "smoke ring" a fine place to live, more or less.  An
Integral tree is a LONG tree that floats in the ring, and has
gravity-like forces at either end due to tides, making it a
desirable place for people to live.  The plot involves a group of
people on a tree that has drifted too far into thinner air, and is
consequently dying.

They leave, and travel around (by various surprises that I won't
give away), giving Larry a chance to show off his neat new world.
Which is the weakness of the book - it mostly serves as a vehicle to
show off the "world".  I would have preferred a technical problem
with technical study and solutions (ala Ringworld, Protector, etc),
rather than the existent sort of "escape to freedom by fighting
tooth and nail" plot.  Oh well, it is a neat world, and the plot is
rather exciting, making the whole thing basically a good read...
"The Integral Trees" is set in the same world as "A world out of
Time" (i think), and there could be a sequel... (hopefully set in a
more technically developed future).

BillW

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Jul 84 02:10:16-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: Book Review: "Demon" by John Varley.

Micro-review:  Great!  Best of the Titan series.  A good bet for
                the Hugo/etc.

Review:
This book describes such trivia as the final showdown between Gaea
and Sciroco Jones, the end of the world, and so on.  Gaea is now
quite obviously insane, even by human standards.  There aren't as
many new ideas in "demon" as in the previous two books, but there is
more to the plot than just travelog, and all of the good guys are in
top shape (I reread the whole series.  "Wizard" is really
depressing, when you think about it).  There is one major (human)
new character (Conal), who I felt was handled well.  I was bothered
by some of the "magic" used, since it seemed to be rather
non-scientific, and since Gaea had never shown such abilities
before.  Perhaps we can discuss this after more people have read the
book, and it won't be so much of spoiler.  The book is full of the
little ingenuities that Varley is so good at.  Lots of SF references
(from OZ to Star Wars) too.  In summary: Fun, exciting, and
conclusive (although there could be more sequels).  Probably worth
the 6.95 in trade paperback (no silly pictures, at least) (probably
a wise decision on the part of the publishers - more people will buy
the trade than a hard cover -> greater profits).

BillW

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 84 10:49:36-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!elsie!imsvax!rcc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Zelazny etc

>Zelazny's book based on the Hindu Pantheon is Lord of Light.
>Speaking of Zelazny, has anyone heard anything more about his new
>Amber novels?

Add my request.  At the beginning of "Nine Princes in Amber", Corwin
states that he is telling his story to someone (presumably Merlin)
so maybe it will pass on after he (Corwin) dies in the Courts of
Chaos.  I want to know WHAT HAPPENED TO CORWIN ?

Also, if you haven't read Lord of Light, I recommend it highly.

The preceding message was brought to you by --

                Ray Chen
UUCP:   {umcp-cs!eneevax || elsie}!imsvax!rcc

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 22 Jul 1984 11:45-EDT
From: munck@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Robotic Can Opener

  I have fond but very vague memories of a series of stories from a
couple of decades ago, about an inventor who did his best work while
drunk and the robot he invented while in said state, whose primary
purpose was to be a beer-can opener.  The inventor's name may have
been Gallagher and the robot's Joe; I do remember that beer cans had
just been replaced by "plasti-bulbs," rendering the robot obsolete
as well as silly.

  Can anyone give me a pointer to these stories?  Thanks.
              -- Bob Munck  (MUNCK@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 84 22:55:16-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Remember Bluebeard

_The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories_, by Angela Carter, contains a
rather eccentric retelling of the Bluebeard story.  Also "Puss in
Boots" and some others.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 84 6:43:56-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Niven/Pournelle jokes - even more obscure

     *** The canonical collection of Motie light bulb jokes ***

Q:  How many Watchmakers does it take to change a light bulb?
A:  Not more than one.  PLEASE!!!

Q:  How many Masters does it take to change a light bulb?
A:  None.  That's a Brown problem.

Q:  How many Mediators does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One.  After she becomes its fyunch(click) she'll take its place.

Q:  How many Warriors does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None.  A Warrior can scare anybody she wants into changing it for
    her.

Q:  How many Meats does it take to change a light bulb?
A:  With no arms?  Have you gone Crazy Eddie?

Q:  How many Engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
A:  Light bulb?  You say this thing here used to be a light bulb?

- compiled by Dick Binder and Bob Hapgood

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)
UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }
       !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Jul 84 23:43:05-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Gordon Dickson & lightbulbs

^^^ How many Friendlies does it take to screw in a lightbulb? ^^

4: one to determine it is not a "vanity" (comfort or luxury),
   one to give the invocation, one to do it, and one to give
   the prayer of thanksgiving.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84 09:45:46 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Dent's master formula

While I can't point you to the article you mentioned, the formula
itself can be found in James Steranko's _History of the Comics,
Volume 1_, in the chapter "The Bloody Pulps".

While we're on the subject, can anyone point me to articles, etc.,
on Dent's most famous creation, Doc Savage?  I know of Farmer's
_Apocalyptic Life_, the Marvel Comics magazines, and an article that
appeared in TIME, circa 1971.  Anything else?

                                Chris Jarocha-Ernst
                                (JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 21:34:56-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism70!steven @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: 2010: Odyssey Two

Information from Lotusland

You'll probably get lots and lots of responses, but just in case you
don't:

2010

Starring Roy Scheider, John Lithgow, Helen Mirren and Bob Balaban.

Also starring Keir Dullea (Dave), Douglas Rain (HAL), two Russian
actors from Moscow on the Hudson and one Russian actress.

Tentative release date by MGM/UA: December 7, 1984

Directed by Peter Hyams. Screenplay by Peter Hyams. From the novel
by Arthur C. Clarke. Produced by Peter Hyams.  Photographed by Peter
Hyams.

Quite an auteur, eh? Supposedly Hyams blackmailed the A.S.C. by
threatening to take the production out of Culver City and over to
England for studio work if they didn't let him be Director of
Photography. Kubrick gave his approval for a sequel to Hyams, but
never visited the set. Steven Spielberg did, however, and wasn't
allowed to see the model of the Discovery ship. Prince Andrew also
visited the 2010 set on his recent visit to Los Angeles, but Hyams
wouldn't even let him enter the command bridge set. Hyams insisted
on recreating the exact costumes as well, using a computer to
embroider the command patches to match the exact colors of the
originals. Cost him 20 grand to get the patches right.

Source of information: Onscreen performer on 2010 whom I talked
to.

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: The Last Starfighter
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 84 22:41 EDT

   I liked it.  And I'll say that if you didn't, you probably also
kick puppies and hate baseball.
   How to hate tLS: expect depth.  Expect excellence in direction,
character development, plot line, etc.
   How to like tLS: go with a friend.  When Centurion says "we've
got trouble", fill in the blank, "right here in River City".  When
Grig says "you have that something special", say "use the force,
Luke".  It really is a very silly movie.  We laughed through the
entire thing.
   Enjoy the light show.  Some of the effects are pretty good, and
fairly well integrated.  Much better than Tron by far.  Be
appreciative of the "kill-a-Cray" approach they took to the movie.
Stay through the credits, and cheer when the Digital Productions
people are mentioned.  People will look at you like you are weird.
   Star Wars (A New Hope) had it.  TESB and RotJ lost it.  Raiders
of the Lost Arc had it, but IJ:ToD lost it.  Star Trek never had it,
neither I nor II nor III.  tLS has it.  Magic.
   Imagine: a movie which is too shallow and short for people to
jump and notice any inconsistencies!  What will we talk about?

   -steve

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 22 Jul 1984 11:59:29-PDT
From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

Re: DUNE casting

Back a few years, rumor had it that Orson Welles would be in DUNE.
It did not mention his part, but I would guess he would play Baron
"I will sell no spice before its time" Harkonnen.  (To show the
inaccuracy of the source, it said that Pink Floyd would be doing the
music. [The Dark Side Of Arrakis? with green pyramids?])

Steve Kovner

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner
ARPA:  kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 84 16:46:55 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #146

Now you've got me angry.  It's not Invasion of the Killer Tomatoes
it's the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.  It's not science fiction
it's Horror.  No more SF than Dracula or Jaws.  Also, where does
Indiana Jones get off being discussed on this list either?

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 84 0:49:20-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video

Well, I got a few mail messages with respect to my posting about
Teri Garr not being in the "Ghostbusters" video, most of them
saying, when all is said and done, that I was full of what makes the
grass grow. So, Wednesday morning, I set the Betamax to tape five
hours worth of MTV whilst I slept the sleep of the con- fident. Hah!
I'll show those bastards! I arose in the late afternoon, and having
caught my fix of YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON TELEVISION (on Nickelodeon), I
zipped through approximately three and a half hours of the tape,
until I hit "Ghostbusters". When I got to the controversial
sequence, I watched it about three times, the whole while saying,
"Naaahhhh. Doesn't look like Teri Garr to me."  Then, to be sure, I
went through it again, frame by frame. Jaw drops to the floor
(Thud!). "Nahhh [a little less confidently], can't be! But it is! It
*is* Teri Garr!" And so, here I sit, with egg on my face. I can only
say, and truthfully, too, that seen at normal speed, it *still*
doesn't look like her! You guys have sharper eyes than I.

<God, I'm so embarrassed>

jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 84 10:04:56-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: GHOSTBUSTERS video

<Who you gonna call?>

You're all wrong!  The girl in the video is Teri Garr.

By the way, I missed the original list.  Could someone send it to me
or repost it?

Thanks.

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #149
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 84 1300-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #149
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:

  Books - Vance & Varley & Zelazny & Constructed Worlds (6 msgs),
  Films - The Last Starfighter & Dune (2 msgs) & 2010 & Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 21:15:57 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: A review of CUGEL'S SAGA, by Jack Vance

CUGEL'S SAGA.  Jack Vance.  Timescape, c1983 (hardcover).

Non-spoiler review:     Hilarious.  Recommended.

Micro-spoiler review:

Vance has brought back his old character Cugel the Clever from his
book THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD, which was in turn set in the
universe of his first book THE DYING EARTH.  I think THE EYES OF THE
OVERWORLD is the best book of Vance's that I have read, and I
understand that it is Vance's favorite among his own books.  Cugel
is a thief by profession, but not an exceptionally good thief; and
as a result he is constantly getting in trouble.  CUGEL'S SAGA
follows the adventures of Cugel as he crosses his decaying planet
and tangles with wizards and rogues and demons and monsters, barely
escaping with his skin in most cases and occasionally finding
himself the centerpiece of a free-for-all farce.  If you like Fritz
Leiber's SWORDS books, then you'll thoroughly enjoy this one.

Mini-spoiler review:

This book is not really a novel -- like THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD,
it is a sequence of episodes bracketed by a containing story
involving Iucounu, the Laughing Magician, who displaces Cugel from
his homeland of Almery to a dreary beach halfway around the world,
from which Cugel must return in order to wreak his revenge.  On his
way, Cugel makes his usual dishonest living but also as usual gets
into each situation way over his head as a result of his impossible
arrogance and ends up being cheated of the goods which he worked so
hard to cheat others of.  Some of the stories have a feel of being
written at different times; in particular the climactic piece of the
bracketing story about the overworld creature Sadlark and his
missing 'Pectoral Sky-Break Spatterlight' has a hasty feel to it, as
though it was written long after the rest of the book.  The book is
mildly funny up to the point where Cugel is forced to ground his
boat and escape to land across some noisome mud-flats ('The mud was
deep, viscous and smelled most unpleasantly.  A heavy ribbed stalk
terminating in a globular eye reared up from the mud to peer at
him...'), after which the story gets sillier and sillier until I
simply couldn't stop laughing.

Reading this book reminds one of how much Gene Wolfe borrowed from
Vance in creating THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN; if you liked the latter,
you can think of CUGEL'S SAGA as a comedy set in the same universe.
The books share the same baroque style of language, the same
penchant for using difficult or obsolete vocabulary, and the same
motifs (the fading sun, the revival of magic, the exotic monsters,
the colorful cultures and characters).  CUGEL'S SAGA, however, is
nowhere nearly as complex as NEW SUN, although it doesn't have to
be, since it has a much simpler lesson to teach.  To give you a
taste of the book, here is a short excerpt.  Preceding this little
incident, Cugel has spent the night in a hovel, whose owner
carefully instructed him about how to cross the Plain of Standing
Stones:

        'After four miles the road angled up to a gray plain studded
        at intervals with twelve-foot pillars of gray stone.  Cugel
        found a large pebble, and placing his right hand on his
        buttock made a profound salute to the object.  He scratched
        upon it a sign somewhat similar to that drawn for him by
        Erwig and intoned: "I commend this pebble to the attention
        of Wiulio!  I request that it protect me across this dismal
        plain!"

        'He scrutinized the landscape, but aside from the sarsens
        and the long black shadows laid by the red morning sun, he
        discovered nothing worthy of attention, and thankfully set
        off along the track.

        'He had traveled no more than a hundred yards when he felt a
        presence and whirling about discovered an asm of eight fangs
        almost on his heels.  Cugel held high the pebble and cried
        out: "Away with you!  I carry a sacred object and I do not
        care to be molested!"

        'The asm spoke in a soft blurred voice: "Wrong!  You carry
        an ordinary pebble.  I watched and you scamped the rite.
        Flee if you wish!  I need the exercise."

        'The asm advanced.  Cugel threw the stone with all his
        force.  It struck the black forehead between the bristling
        antennae, and the asm fell flat; before it could rise Cugel
        had severed its head.

        'He started to proceed, then turned back and took up the
        stone.  "Who knows who guided the throw so accurately?
        Wiulio deserves the benefit of the doubt."'

With the demise of Timescape Books, it may be a while before CUGEL'S
SAGA gets a paperback edition...  What a pity.  In the meantime I
hope Vance writes more books like these!

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 21:53:27 PDT
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Demon...

Re:
> Probably worth the 6.95 in trade paperback (no silly pictures, at
> least) (probably a wise decision on the part of the publishers -
> more people will buy the trade than a hard cover -> greater
> profits).

        I'm not sure what you mean, there IS a hardback of DEMON (I
have one, which Varley inscribe "The last spleen quivering
adventure", which I leave to you trivia experts to translate). Also,
publishers DO make more money on hardcovers, as there is a greater
markup, and there are a LOT of libraries...

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkely
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1984 09:57:02 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Chronicles of Amber

I wouldn't get to concerned about Corwin.  Assuming Zelazny is
consistent, Corwin is now unkillable.  Remember folks, he created a
pattern, therefore he is the pattern.  While it stands, he can't be
hurt, and while he stands, it can't be hurt (well, sort of.  There
are ways around it).

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 84 14:16:12-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Constructed as in BUILT, guys...

Then of course, there's always Zelazny's series of universes, as
expounded in the Nine Princes in Amber series. As I recall, these
universes were constructed, although I won't say by whom, as that'd
be a SPOILER.
Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 84 9:34:17-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!garfi
From: eld!dave @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: constructed worlds

| From: VLSI%DEC-MARLBORO@sri-unix.UUCP
| Newgroups: net.sf-lovers
| Subject: constructed worlds
|
| From:  John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
|
| Here are all the constructed worlds that I can think of, including
| the ones that have been mentioned already:

        (somewhat cut)
| "Ringworld" and "The Ringworld Engineers" by Larry Niven
| "Orbitsville" by Bob Shaw
| "The World is Round" by Tony Rothman
| "Wall Around a Star" by Jack Williamson and Fred Pohl
| "Strata" by Terry Pratchet
| "Cageworld" by Colin Kapp
| "Starmaker" by Olaf Stapledon
| "Titan","Wizard", and "Demon" by John Varley
| "Maker of Universes" by Philip Jose Farmer
|
| /jlr

You forgot Zelazny's Amber (+ shadows), which is a *lot* bigger than
anything else mentioned here (and might even include them.)

dave
 David Janes (Memorial University of Newfoundland)
 {allegra, inhp4, utcsrgv}!garfield!dave

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 84 9:34:32-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!linus!philabs
From: !rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: constructed worlds

Sorry to put a damper on this discussion, guys, but I don't think
planet-building will ever really catch on.  Remember the planet
builders of Magrathea?

I'm sooooooo depressed.

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 84 12:48:34 EDT
From: Bob Clements <clements@BBNCD.ARPA>
Subject: Constructed world, Old book request

OK, I will give in to some nostalgia, and admit my age. Can anyone
come up with the title and author from the following story fragment?
This was one of the first SF books I read, when I was a wee tad,
probably in the 50's.

About all I remember is that it was of the "Earth (read Yankee)
engineers can do anything" genre. There was this spaceship and a
crew of fighters/galactic galivanters who cobbled up a drive that
traveled to parallel universes out of spare tubes from their
whatever.  They were busily inventing weapons, fighting bad guys and
universe hopping through most of the book. The thing that might make
it possible to pin down the book is that at the end they zip over to
another universe and find out that it is obviously constructed by a
species more wise and powerful than they are. The whole universe is
empty except for one system consisting of a perfect triangle of
stars around one planet (as I recall it, maybe it was three planets
in a triangle around one star). The all powerful folks who live
there gently but firmly push the protagonists out of "their"
universe and are not seen again. The spaceship goes back to its old
ways in its old universes, but with a bit more humility.

Any pointers?

/Rcc
ARPA: clements@bbn
Usenet: ...!{decvax,linus}!bbncca!clements

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 84 15:02:00-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... - (nf)

He wants built worlds, let's give him a few:

The largest built world story (the world is big, not the story) is
Terry Pratchett's "Strata". It makes Farmer's _World of Tiers_ books
(previously mentioned on the net) look small time.

            ************** MILD SPOILER ****************

In "Strata", we have

        1) A race that creates Hydrogen out of ????.
        2) A race that creates stars out of free Hydrogen.
        3) A race that builds worlds around world-less stars.
        4) A race that lays down crusts on worlds (with "strata
                machines", of course).
        5) (The biggy) A race that builds
                universes, complete with evidence that 1-4 exist.

The only world we get to see in any detail is a *flat* world
(Pratchett likes those - his first novel dealt with one, too) that
looks like the medieval version of earth, complete with angels,
devils (or deveels :-) and magic.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 84 8:20:38-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Constructed worldlets.

The original contributor's postscript, about "it wasn't built with a
wrench", reminded me of a story of Stanislaw Lem's, in which Trurl
builds a whole kingdom in miniature [a couple of square feet, as I
recall] for some wretched king -- and then had second thoughts when
Klapaucius reminded him that those people in there were suffering. I
read it in The Cyberiad, but I forget which Sally it was.
   That might be the smallest constructed world. Shadow must be
largest, Terry Pratchett notwithstanding, since by definition it
contains all other worlds, as I recall.

karl@dartmouth, dartvax!karl

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84 13:44:44 EDT
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: effects in tLSF

i don't really feel like discussing the merits of tLSF, but it
brought up a couple of things in my mind.

it's funny that someone just mentioned detail as a plus in computer
generated graphics.  i've noticed just the opposite.  in computer
generated stuff, the ships always have straight lines and simple
external apparatus: just what you'd expect from a computer. the
model shots of SW, on the other hand, had all manner of random junk
hanging on the outsides of ships, just as you'd expect in the real
world.  there's also no concept in computer graphics of a space ship
being damaged.  it's either destroyed or visually unharmed.  i found
it irritating that the good guys always got hit on the side away
from the "camera", and when they got hit, their ship did the
standard "computer generated shudder", familiar to anyone who's
played a video game.  is there any reason for these things, or are
they just things that need to be developed.

another parellel between SW and tLSF that noone's pointed out is the
use of gun sights which physically move the gunner.  i thought this
was silly in SW and i thought it was silly in tLSF, but rather than
flame, i'd just like to ask if anyone thinks it really would be more
effective to give the gunner a kinetic sense of where he was aiming,
rather than just giving him a video game-like display.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 21:54:02 PDT
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Dune casting

> (To show the inaccuracy of the source, it said that Pink Floyd
> would be doing the music. [The Dark Side Of Arrakis? with green
> pyramids?])

        For what it is worth, Pink Floyd WAS going to do the music
for the second aborted version of Dune (they also had Geiger doing
the set design, some of his usual repellent work).

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 24 Jul 1984 08:07:02-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
To: fl%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: DUNE: Welles and Floyd

> Back a few years, rumor had it that Orson Welles would be in DUNE.
> It did not mention his part, but I would guess he would play Baron
> "I will sell no spice before its time" Harkonnen.  (To show the
> inaccuracy of the source, it said that Pink Floyd would be doing
> the music. [The Dark Side Of Arrakis? with green pyramids?])
>
> Steve Kovner

That source was not so innacurate as you believe. There have been a
few attempts before the current production to film DUNE. In one
such, being produced and directed by Alexandro Jodorowsky, Orson
Welles was indeed picked to play the Baron (and Salvador Dali ---
yes, that one! --- was to play the Emperor). Pink Floyd was signed
on to do the soundtrack for one of the productions, but I think it
wasn't for Jodorowsky, but for a previous attempt by DiLaurentiis.
*That* production was to be directed by Ridley Scott, from a script
by Frank Herbert himself, and with production designs by H. R.
Giger.

jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84 1:02:38-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!atc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: 2010: Odyssey Two

   The director of 2010 is Peter Hyams. His SF-related credits
include Capricorn One and Outland. His most recent film was The Star
Chamber.
                                             A. T. Campbell
                                             (atc@ut-sally!uucp)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84 12:03:46-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!bragvax!david @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Rumors wanted

1. In the August SFC, Kay Anderson repeats a rumor that Star Wars IV
   is in pre-production.  Would anyone in netland like to contribute
   to this rumor?

2. Ditto for details of the Princess Leia/Paul Simon situation.  Was
   this in People magazine?

Please mail-carrier, bring back my person!  (non-sexist version)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Jul  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #150
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Jul 84 1353-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #150
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Jul 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:

                ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1984 16:19:06 EDT ( FRIDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Star Trek

For what its worth, here's my guess as to how STIV will solve the
various problems created in STIII:

Kirk et all leave Vulcan and return to Earth, where StarFleet plans
to roast them alive for stealing Enterprise, disobeyance of orders,
etc, etc...  Unfortunately for StarFleet, the media has somehow
gotten hold of (a version) of the incidents chronicled in STIII (as
to how they manage this, don't ask me.  If they could find out about
Genesis, Khan, et all in the first place, I'm sure they can find out
the rest as well.  Maybe the Vulcans will let it leak out), and is
touting Kirk as Public Hero Number One, the man who saved Genesis
from the dastardly Klingon Empire.  Under the circumstances,
StarFleet finds itself under enormous political and media pressure
(remember, StarFleet is NOT the Federation Government.  It is only a
branch thereof, and has to get its funding somewhere.  Politicians
are notoriously reluctant to courtmartial a Public Hero) to reward
Kirk, not courtmartial him.  The solution they come up with is to
send him off on some highly dangerous mission, somewhere out in the
middle of nowhere.  If he survives, well then they can let bygones
be bygones.  If he fails, then StarFleet has rid itself of an
embarrassment.  Naturally, Kirk and co. will get a new ship,
coincidently named Enterprise, to hop around in.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 14:37:34-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!saturn!hull @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Ship numbering

>>Enterprise: NCC-1701
>>Excelsior:  NX-2000
>>
>>NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract (according to Franz
>>Joseph Designs, anyway).  What, if anything, does NX stand for?

My best guess would be Naval Experimental.

Jim Hull
HP Labs

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 13:03:48-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!dual!jeff @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk

I don't believe Kirk's full name is used until the TV cartoon
releases were done.  His name is spoken by a sloth/jello alien
creature who is telepathic, I don't recall the episode or the aliens
names but each of the aliens refer to Kirk as James Tiberius Kirk.

To quote the immortal Bill the Cat, "GACK".

Jeff Houston
Dual Systems Corp., Berkeley, CA
{ucbvax,ihnp4,cbosgd,zehntel,fortune,decwrl,a few more I dont know
  of}!dual!jeff

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 23 Jul 1984 07:28:22-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Lesser punishment for James T. Kirk

First quote:

>    Question for the person on the net with the naval knowledge: If
> Kirk were to, say, go on an incredibly dangerous and important
> mission (Starfleet having absolutely no recourse but to use Kirk),
> and he succeeded, could there realistically be some lesser
> sentence levied against Kirk?  Say a year or two in prison, or
> some such punishment?

Second quote:

>Don't know if it's true or not, but I recall reading somewhere,
>sometime, that in French military practice a soldier who disobeys
>an order (in battle?) is indeed executed-- unless his action leads
>to a successful outcome to the engagement, in which case he is not
>only pardoned, but awarded a special medal.

Not knowing for certain if I am the "person...with naval knowledge"
who is referred to, I'll take a shot anyway.  The Articles of War
are very specific.  The wording is, I believe, "...death, or such
lesser punishment as he is deemed to deserve."  The administration
of a lesser punishment, as I implied in my earlier screed, is not
undertaken lightly because of the absolute need for unadulterated
discipline.  In the British navy during Napoleonic times, that
lesser punishment was never less than being flogged round the fleet,
ie a minimum of 500 strokes with the cat; and the victim, if he
didn't die outright, wasn't much good for anything tougher than
sitting about and supping soup.  With the vast increase in the
sophistication of punishment technology, one might assume that a
comparable sentence for Kirk would be permanent stimulation of the
tri-geminal nerve or some such.

The romantic French with their swashbuckler's loophole are but one
more example of losers - they have never in their entire history
managed to establish a military force to be reckoned with.  (Please
don't burden the net with citation of the Foreign Legion or Napoleon
- I'll happily discredit them in separate mail.)

As for using Kirk for a mission that only he could handle, no bloody
way!  Assuming that there were an admiral over him stupid enough to
jeopardize HIS OWN career by rewarding Kirk's misbehaviour, Kirk
would still have been disposed of long before such an opportunity
arose.

Third quote:

> Enterprise: NCC-1701
> Excelsior:  NX-2000

> NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract (according to Franz
> Joseph Designs, anyway).  What, if anything, does NX stand for?

Why, it stands for Naval eXperimental, of course!

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }
       !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1984 10:20:36 EDT ( MONDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: ST III

NX probably stands for Naval Experimental, since I doubt it stands
for Nuclear Xylophone.

We've been talking about ST III, and what may happen in ST IV, for
awhile now.  I think maybe we should try to guess the title of ST
IV.  For example:

Star Trek IV:  Jim Kirk Rides Again

               or

Old Starship Captains Never Die, They Just Come Back In Sequels.
(OSCNDTJCBIS)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1984 09:03:55 EDT ( MONDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: ST III

From a friend of mine, not on the network:


   RE: Digest v9 #147 - ST Special

   Here are some comments/questions/vague misgivings which jumped
out at me--and from me--upon reading v9 #147.
   James Kirk's middle name was revealed in the animated episode
"Bem", by David Gerrold.  Now, this statement immediately brings me
cries of "The animateds?!?  Are you crazy?"  and "Cartoon Trek
doesn't count" and such stuff.  I would like to put forth a motion
into the whole of Trek fandom (an awesome task, certainly, but I
like to think big).  What, exactly, comprises the Trek universe?
   When considering this question, we have only a few possible
sources to draw from: the series, the animated episodes, the movies,
the novels, and the documentary-type books.  Now, I think it is
beyond question that the series is and always must be counted as
part of the ST universe.  And the movies are also a prime candidate
(although some want to disavow knowledge of Spock's death and--in my
case--of his resurrection).  But there seems to be a growing and
very determined movement afoot to disclaim the animateds as a part
of the "real" Trek universe.  Certainly, the reasons are
self-evident: the animateds were loose, short, and not entirely
consistent or as good as the live-action series.  Personally, I
would like to count the animateds as "real" Trek; there is a lot of
decent stuff in them, enough to warrant their inclusion into the
Trek universe.  But I can see where it might be better to discount
the animateds.  Let's make a decision on this, Trek fans, so that we
can all talk about Trek on the same level.
   The novels of Trek, it seems, are gaining more and more
acceptance as Trek authorities.  People continue to cite this novel
or that as the source for some piece of Trekanalia.  But the novels
are all too often inconsistent with each other, even though they may
be consistent with the series.  I love most of the novels (and I
have read them all, and hope to write some, sooner or later), but
they really can not be counted as part of Trek universe.  So too
goes the argument on such books as "The Making of. . ."  Roddenberry
may state his opinions, but opinions change and he may not want some
things to be included now.
   Hey, fans, how 'bout this: Star Trek IS the series, the
animateds, and the movies, and that's it.  (As I said, the novels
are nice, and often excellent, sometimes great, but, as a whole, too
inconsistent.  Also, there are certainly many who have not read them
all, and why should they be denied access to the whole of the Trek
universe?)
   Since I have gone on a bit, I'll end and continue with other
stuff later.  Just one more thing: we do not know how long Pike
commanded Enterprise, but Spock served under him for over thirteen
years.
   Peace and long life to all,
   David George

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84  18:49 EDT (Mon)
From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek Trivia (no spoilers)

I believe the animated series in which we learn that T stands for
Tiberius is "BEM" (by Larry Niven?).  A goddess-like intelligence is
supervising the development of a early culture, and the Enterprise
happens to visit this planet.  When she demands to know who is
interfering with her plans, Kirk responds with his FULL name.  I
remember this quite clearly, and was always surprised when others
didn't know Kirk's middle name.

Also, as to what the NX in Excelsius's number stands for...  I've
been working with military equipment for over a year now, and can
state fairly certainly that most equipment serial letters aren't
understandable acronyms.  For instance, our equipment is an
AN/UYK-7.  AN= Army/Navy (invented before Air Force came along), U =
something like general purpose, Y = data processing equipment, K =
komputer (of course!)  7 = major revision #7 of hardware.

Makes almost no sense whatsoever, right?  You'd have to have the
list in front of you to figure out what all the letters stand for.
To complicate matters, a letter in one position doesn't mean the
same thing when it is in a different position.

So NX can probably be defined as almost any reasonable pair of
words.

Marla Selinger <Selinger@Ru-Blue>

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84  18:51 EDT (Mon)
From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Cc: Tony Li <Tli@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: james TIBERIAS kirk

Kirk's wife?  You mean Miramanee?  I think that was the only one he
ever married...

Greetings from Rutgers!

Marla Selinger

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 84 21:19:06-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsafw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Star Trek honoring Arthur C. Clarke(?)

        If so, we were warned by Alan Dean Foster.  In the
novelization of STTMP, Kirk reflects on the surprise generated by
the discovery of a monolith on the moon at the beginning of the 21st
century... :-)

                Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw
                  6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131

                  Witness, n.  To watch and learn, joyously.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 84 9:22:20-PDT (Fri)
From: sun!qubix!ios!wjvax!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk

Nope!  The computer says only 'James T. Kirk'... The only reference
to Kirk's middle name that I have seen was in the novelization of
STTMP, by Kirk himself in the forward.

The cited episode (Court Martial) does provide material for a real
hummer of a trivia question:

        What is James T. Kirk's serial number?

Unfortunately, I can't remember. Anyone?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1984 14:49:19 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: ST III

From a friend of mine not on the net:
Date: 24 July 1984, 14:07:01 EDT
From: ELLIS2   at YKTVMT

   How about putting this sucker in for me, please?

   I am continually reading messages about Star Trek in the Digest.
Some comment positively, others comment negatively.  Now, I have met
plenty of people who really like Star Trek, and plenty of others who
simply do not like it.  I have met still others (very few of these)
who have never even watched ST, and others (even fewer of these) who
truly love ST.  But I am surprised at the types of negative comments
that have been written about Trek in this Digest.
   The question I have to ask is: why?  I can understand people not
liking Trek because they don't like Shatner, or sf, or cult fandom,
or just the whole show itself.  I can understand people who like
Trek only because they like Shatner, or sf, or cult fandoms, or just
the show itself.  It is easy to understand that some people have
never seen Trek.  (It is sometimes hard to believe that there are
others who love Trek for the reasons that I do, but I believe there
must be somebody out there.)
   But I like Star Trek for very philosophic reasons.  Star Trek
attempts to project--and sometimes comment on--different philosophic
items: honor, love, death, friendship, courage, etc.  Also included
in the philosophies are moral questions: overpopulation, killing,
self-defense, prejudice.  Now, there are episodes when the acting is
terrible, or the story, the dialogue, the effects--everything, in
fact--is terrible.  You could even argue that EVERY piece of Trek
ever produced is terrible in all of these ways, and more.  (I would
not agree, but that is irrelevant.)  But Star Trek is something else
entirely.
   Star Trek is a commercial product, a vehicle to make certain
people as much money as possible.  As we have seen, in Trek and
other productions, this commercialism often comprises stories,
characters, and the like.  But through all of Trek's tribulations,
it has ATTEMPTED in a very serious manner to present and examine
moral and philosophical entities.  Still, Trek must make money, and
these two points are often irreconcilable.  I am sure there are
those of you out there that will say that there was not one instant
of Trek that was ever any good.  But is that really true?  For, from
the outset, Trek has sought to do what no other entity had ever
done: produce a forum for ideas and philosophies for the general
public.
   I am not a "Trekkie".  I was touched when Spock died, felt like I
had lost a friend, in fact.  But I accepted it.  It was good drama
(in my opinion).  For this reason, I did not want Spock to come
back; I felt (and feel) it would (and did) sacrifice some of the
impact of ST II.  I mention this because I want to show that I am
not a "Trekkie".  I am a Star Trek fan, a science fiction fan, if
you must have a label.  But I like the genre of sf for the same
reasons I like ST: it provides a means of presenting and examining
philsophies and ideas.  Not all sf is good at so doing; those pieces
I do not like, but I do not condemn--they have tried, but they could
have been better.  Other pieces of sf I feel are trash: they do not
try to do anything.  If you consider Star Wars sf, then (I feel) it
is garbage.  I loved Star Wars; I feel it was not trash.  But it was
not science fiction.
   What it comes down to is this: you might not enjoy Star Trek, or
you might feel that it misses its intended mark (even to 100%
innaccuracy), but can it be CONDEMNED?  Some of you have written
very biting remarks about Trek, and those hit home because they
concern not just a show or movie, but a group of philosophies and
ideas.  Even if you feel that Trek misses the mark (and I agree that
it has, at least sometimes), doesn't it deserve some measure of
appreciation for what it has attempted to be, and what it has become
on different levels?  I mean, can you imagine what Trek would be
like--how good, even great, it would be--if somebody who loved ST
and sf produced it.  Maybe someday that might happen.  I, for one,
am hoping it does.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #151
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 84 1200-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #151
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:
         Administrivia - Downtime at Rutgers,
         Books - Lieber & Jokes (2 msgs) & Man vs Machine &
                 The Man Who Ruled the World & 
                 Robotic Can Opener (3 msgs) & Book Request,
         Films - Dan O'Herlihy & Elfquest & Dante,
         Miscellaneous - Films at SF Cons & SF in Media &
                 Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? & PARTY TIME

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 84 11:16:45 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Down time at Rutgers

        My deepest apologies to all of you SF fans out there who
were suffering from loss of SF-LOVERS for the last week or so.
Because of various mix-ups, bureaucratic fumbles and a bevy of
gremlins, we lost our connection to the ARPAnet for a time.  Those
of you who sent messages back that could not get through may resend
them!
        SF-LOVERS is alive and well and digests shall once more
storm forth to plague all your mail files!

Live long and prosper!
Saul Jaffe (The  Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Aug 84 12:05 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Ghostbusters & Lieber

While the GhostBusters plot theme did appear highly original, I did
remember reading something similiar, after a check of my library I
found it:

                OUR LADY OF DARKNESS -- Fritz Lieber (c) 1977

This is a story about one very weird man by the name of Thiebaut
deCastries who lived in San Francisco from 1900-1928. He was
interested and published a book about paramentals and their growing
concentration in large cities. deCastries was your basic
DoomProphet, prophesizing that the increasing concentration of
steel, paper, concrete, and oil products in cities was causing an
increase in paramental activity and eventual doom. deCastries was
"discovered" by a group of bohemian writers/poets/actresses living
in the city at the time (Jack London, Clark Ashton Smith, ... ) and
became a focus point for anti-industrial sabatoge against the
increasing concentration of mass in the city.  Weird stuff, but even
stranger is that the story is told via flashback by a contemporary
sf/mystery writer who discovers that himself at the "fulcrum" of a
paramental time bomb left by deCastries.

This book is written in the style of a travelog. In a manner
similiar to Victor Hugo in Les Miserables, we are taken through the
streets hills and sights of San Francisco. For lovers of this city,
it is a real trip to read.

An excellent story by an Author who is not given enough credit. (I
also recommend the Gray Mouser series, and Gather Darkness, a story
about future based witches).

Q: The general theme of SF is that Technology contains the ANSWERS
and that religion is just common-sense sociology. But there are some
authors who have taken the delightfully perverse opposite attitude
that increasing technology will increase para-normal events. I'm
definitely not talking about the Force in SW, but things such as
MidSummer Century by Blish (he turned to mysticism towards his
death), and the Fritz Lieber stories I just mentioned. <so get to
the question> Ok, so what other stories do people know that buck the
group-think of current SF and deal with paramentalism and mysticism
in a technological future. Send in your replies as "RE:
paratechnomysticism"

                        - Steven Gutfreund
                          gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1984 10:13:12 EDT ( MONDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Gordon R. Dickson Light Bulb Jokes

How many Dorsai does it take to change a light bulb?

At least 4:

1 Battle Op to consider the theoretical tactical and strategic
  ramifications,
1 Field Marshall to adapt the Battle Op's results to the actual
  situation,
1 Soldier to stand guard on the light bulb socket,
1 Soldier to perform the operation according to the Field Marshall's
  conclusions, modified by his particular situation.

Of course, many more Dorsai could be required, to wit:

1 Squad to take and hold the building containing the burnt out light
  bulb,
1 Squad to take and hold the nearest light bulb factory,
1 Convoy to bring the light bulb from the factory to the building,
1 Squad to protect the convoy.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1984 10:02:27 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Gordon R. Dickson & Light Bulbs

How many Friendlies does it take to screw in a light bulb?

None.  When the Lord no longer wants His soldiers to sit in the
dark, He will grant them light.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 84 10:49:06-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine

Another is in a recent Asimov's, a short called Reatime.  A great
story, I highly recommend it.

Walt Pesch
AT&T Technologies
ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 84 10:02:26-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!jss @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Man who Ruled the World

Ah, Michaelmas was a short story that was blown up into a novel.
That explains what has been bothering me about it. The novel, by the
way, was published 1977, by Berkley Medallion Books. It has nice
characterization, and goes along quite well until some point where
the author seems to realize that while he's got a nice,
well-worked-out gimmick, he doesn't have a *plot*. So he tosses in
some aliens with no motivation to give himself an ending.

This is often a problem with otherwise good science fiction
(possibly with non-science fiction, too. I don't read much of it).
It is relatively easy to come up with a "what if", but much more
difficult to create a plot.

judith schrier
brunix!jss

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1984 01:42-EST
From: Dragon  <Monica.Cellio@cmu-cs-cad>
Subject: Robotic bottle opener

The story in question (series?  I'd be interested in knowing if
there are others) is Gallegher Plus, by Henry Kuttner.  It can be
found in Cosmic Laughter (ed. Joe Haldeman).  The robot never really
had a name; Gallegher called it Narciscus but it objected.

                                                -D

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 24 Jul 1984 07:55:33-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Robotic Can Opener

>   I have fond but very vague memories of a series of stories from
> a couple of decades ago, about an inventor who did his best work
> while drunk and the robot he invented while in said state, whose
> primary purpose was to be a beer-can opener.  The inventor's name
> may have been Gallagher and the robot's Joe; I do remember that
> beer cans had just been replaced by "plasti-bulbs," rendering the
> robot obsolete as well as silly.
>
>  Can anyone give me a pointer to these stories?  Thanks.
>              -- Bob Munck  (MUNCK@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA)

I believe you're thinking of the "Galloway Gallegher" stories by
Henry Kuttner (originally published in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION
under the pseudonym Lewis Padgett). The only collection of those
stories, ROBOTS HAVE NO TAILS, is long out of print, but you might
find a copy in a good used bookstore. You might find some of the
stories in other collections of Kuttner's, too. Give a day or so,
and I'll have a bibliography for you.

jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my Business">

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 84 00:10:14 PDT (Wed)
From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse
Subject: Robotic Can Opener

     The story is "The Proud Robot", by Lewis Padgett.  I have it in
the collection "FAMOUS SCIENCE-FICTION STORIES: Adventures in Time
and Space", editors Raymond J. Healy and J. Francis McComas; The
Modern Library (Random House), New York.  The collection is
copyright 1946, 1957 (more than a couple of decades ago!) by Random
House.  The credits in the front credit the story to Astounding, no
date given.  The inventor was Gallegher and the robot was indeed
Joe.

     I love it.

     If you liked "The Proud Robot", you should like "Time Locker",
Lewis Padgett, same collection, same credits.

     Personally, I like about three-quarters of the stories in that
collection.  There's quite a selection there; it's 997 pages.

                                        der Mouse
                        (...!uw-beaver!utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse)

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following for presenting
similar information:

Peter Alfke (Alfke.pasa@XEROX.ARPA)
Morris M. Keesan (keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA)
]

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 84 21:22:22 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Book request

Well, here's a tough one for you.  I'm trying to get the title of
the first science fiction book that I read (about 10 years ago).  I
know it was one book in an Ace Double.  What little I remember
(which could be wrong) is as follows: A man (earthman?) is rescuing
a girl (alien girl?) from a city on an alien planet.  What I really
remember is a scene where they escaped from the city and are fleeing
across an "ocean" which is made up of some kind of "webbing".  There
are also interesting boats on this "ocean".

Sorry for not being able to recall more of the story but its been
quite a while.  Any ideas would be appreciated.

ds

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84 14:15:49-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: "The Last Starfighter": Dan O'Herlihy

Actually, O'Herlihy was in the last couple of episodes of "Whiz
Kids" as the head of a secret NSA-like organization.  In fact... I
wonder if the character has an alias called "Dr. Smith"? :-) Lucky
Richie never ran into the organization's enforcer...

                                "That's the biz, sweetheart"

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
 {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax}
 -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
        fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 84 11:10:58-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: "Elfquest" movie

| > Nirvana Productions, which at one time was planning an animated
| > version of Wendy & Richard Pini's "Elfquest", is definitely not
| > making this film.

| Indeed.  According to the Pini's (via the Elfquest Fanclub
| Newsletter), Nevana wanted to do (some portion approaching the
| whole of) the film in live action, which the Pini's found
| repugnant to say the least.  In addition, the Pini's claim that
| Nirvana was reluctant to revert the rights and only threats of
| legal action goaded them into doing the right thing.


OK, folks, repeat after me.

        Nelvana  NEL VAN A   nelvana nelvana nelvana nelvana

Now, remember, it isn't "Nirvana Productions" and it isn't Nevana.

It's NELVANA.  The name comes from the Amerind mythos of several
Canadian tribes, and is the name of the Goddess of the Aurora, if I
recall correctly.

Please try to be more precise in the future.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jul 84 15:26:58 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Joe Dante's next film

Joe Dante, director of "Gremlins", is next going to be working on a
science fiction film called "Explorers" (despite an earlier comment
on his part that he was tired of working with horror/fantasy).  The
original screenplay is by Eric Luke, a graduate of the UCLA film
school, who once worked at "A Change of Hobbit", LA's best sf
bookstore.  The content of the film is a closely guarded secret.
All they're saying is :

 " "Explorers" plot concerns three boys who make "an amazing
   discovery" that propels them on a "fantastic journey" involving
   a common dream. "
                (LA Times, July 27).

Filming will start in fall, if it doesn't get scuttled before then.

                                        Peter Reiher
                                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                                        {ihnp4,ucb}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 16:59:38 EDT
From: Sue Muuss <sue@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Cc: mjm@BRL-TGR.ARPA
Subject: favorite sf movies

Here's your chance to tell me what sf films you would like to see
when you go to sf conventions: I'm conducting an informal poll to
obtain film tiltles.  The poll will last from now until Labor Day
(Sept.03), and I'll post preliminary results about three weeks from
now.  Final results will be posted shortly after Labor Day.
Please, DO NOT send your votes to SF-Lovers; address them to
mjm@brl.arpa.  This is very important, since it would not be nice to
congest the digest.
                         mjm@brl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 84 15:08:16 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: SF In Media: This Is Progress?

The Boston Globe has ads for a new musical.

Based on "The Little Shop Of Horrors."

I kid you not.

Tendrilly,

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 84 11:22:31-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!plus5!bob @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction?

: What is SF without a little fantasy? :

        Bah!  It is all fiction, and all fiction is fantasy.

        We are just more willing to believe in the 'reality' of
something with familiar science, situations, and stereotypes.

                                        bob@plus5
   Bob Simpson                              ...!ihnp4!plus5!bob
   765 Westwood Dr.
   St. Louis, MO 63105                             314-725-9492

------------------------------

Date: Mon 6 Aug 84 00:36-EDT
From: James M. Turner <RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: It's time again...

to think about the yearly SFL Worldcon Party. The annual pairing of
faces and net-names, and a chance to communicate with your fellow
fan faster than 9600 baud.

If you are going to be at L.A.Con and want more information on
location and time, send your electronic mail address to:

SF-LOVERS-PARTY-REQUESTS@MIT-MC

This will place you on the SF-LOVERS-PARTY mailing list, which will
be used to discuss party details.

As always, if you would like to contribute food, beverage, or even
the use of a room (we badly need a suite), get in touch ASAP.

Look for "Friends of Duffey, Jaffe, and Lauren" on the party boards.

                                        James Turner
                                        RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
                                        JMTURN@MIT-MC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #152
Date:  6 Aug 84 1225-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #152
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 84 1225-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #152
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:
     Books - Barker & Goldman & Stasheff & Constructed Worlds,
     Films - The Philadelphia Experiment & Star Trek (4 msgs),
     Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Aug 84 15:22:23 EDT
From: Brian Charles Sudis <bsudis@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: M.A.R BARKER

        From reading the MAN OF GOLD without any previous knowledge
or experience in his world Tukemel, I was both very impressed and
very bored.

        I found that I had to keep reminding myself that I was not
reading an introduction to a world but a book. (I could be wrong, it
might have been an introduction.)

        There were some very good points to the book from both
points of view. The way Barker built the political frame of the
world was very good, but pulled away from what I felt the story line
was intended to be. If taken and read by skipping every other
chapter you could have one very good book and one real good insight
to the world of Tukemel.
                                "Just one man's opinion"

                                        Brian C. Sudis

------------------------------

Date: Fri 3 Aug 84 08:18:45-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: The Princess Bride

In response to the recent query: The princess Bride, by William
Goldman, is available in pb from Ballantine, $3-50,
ISBN 0 345 31532 4

It is subtitled "A Hot Fairy Tale", but it's barely lukewarm.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 25 Jul 84 19:21:09-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SRI-KL.ARPA>
Subject: Book reveiw: "King Kobold Revived" by Christopher Stasheff

Micro-reveiw: You shouldn't re-write the middle book of a trilogy.
                other than that, better than the original.

Reveiw:
This is a re-write of "king Kobold", the middle book of the "warlock
in spite of himself" trilogy.  I read the original (hard to find)
version, and it was really much worse than the other books, and as
such, I guess rewriting it was a good idea.  Unfortunately, some of
the major plot elements and twists from the original have been
changed completely.  This isn't so bad by itself, but now "Warlock
Unleashed" refers back to events that never happened.  Oh well.
Basic plot summary: The good guys are being attacked by mean nasty
guys with powerful (even for gramarye!) evil-eye psychic powers.  So
our hero has to figure out who and why and how to defeat them.  The
book is much smoother than the original "king kobold", and you won't
be getting ripped off by buying both, but it just doesn't fit in as
well with the rest of the trilogy.

Speaking of Stasheff, in the prequel ("Escape velocity"), There are
a number of planets that might be interesting in the future.  One is
Gramarye, one is the asteroid where Fess comes from, and the third
is the "prison planet" where the book opens.  Whatever happened to
that place?  Is it the topic of any other books?

BillW

------------------------------

Date: Fri 3 Aug 84 08:18:28-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Constructed Worlds

A real oldie, packed with stock characters, bad plotting, sense of
wonder &c is

        Dave Grinnell : Edge of Time

Scientists have constructed a miniature universe in a magnetic
bottle, which they watch evolve from a little bang to a single
spiral galaxy; naturally at a very rapid rate.  They have
instruments that can spy on the tiny critters that evolve on the
weeny planets, so as to steal their advanced technology ...

I liked it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Aug 84 12:34:35 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "The Philadelphia Experiment"

*Some spoiler material*

"The Philadelphia Experiment" is a new science fiction film from New
World Pictures (whose logo looks like AT&T's, rotated and in a
different color).  New World used to be Roger Corman's company, he
of beach blanket movies, Hell's Angels opera (the plural of opus;
sure suprised *me* when I looked it up), and Vincent Price/Edgar
Allen Poe horror films.  Well, New World is trying to go a little
bit more legitimate, so "The Philadelphia Experiment" looks more
like a typical Hollywood studio film.  Too bad.  It could have used
a little energy, however sleazy.

The story takes as its starting point some apparently actual
experiments made by the US Navy during WWII.  The idea was to make
ships radar invisible.  According to rumor, something went
disastrously wrong, and the experiment was abandoned (something
about a ship really disappearing...).  The film assumes that what
happened involved a time warp which throws a couple of sailors into
1984, where the same scientist who ran the first experiments is
running another set.  He's opened some kind of void which spits the
sailors out, sucks a town in, and is on the way to eating the entire
world.  Something Must Be Done.

Well, one of the sailors is the film's stars, Michael Pare.  He and
his buddy, Bobby Di Cicco, are initially confused, then frightened,
since ham-handed MPs seem more intent on killing them than capturing
them.  They kidnap Nancy Allen (veteran of seemingly countless Brian
DePalma films), who falls in love with Pare.  Di Cicco is sucked
back to the fourties, and Pare must choose between his love for
Allen or saving the world.  (How many of you really believe he can't
get both?)

It's not entirely clear why anyone bothered to make "The
Philadelphia Experiment".  There's nothing truly wrong with it, but
it doesn't seem to excite any of the participants.  Pare has a
couple of good moments.  Director Stewart Raffill actually manages
to do something interesting with a car chase scene.  Other than
that, there is nothing much there.  The special effects run heavily
to lowering clouds and lightning, with the occasional pyrotechnics
and a plagiarized light show.  They are functional, but not special.
Unless you're a completest, or find Pare irresistable, this would be
a good film to catch up with on cable.

                                Peter Reiher
                                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                                {...ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Aug 84 15:36:36 EDT
From: Brian Charles Sudis <bsudis@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: NX-2000

        My vote is for Naval Experimental. I also think that to name
the next ship Enterprise would be simple. If they want to keep some
small ties to realism, then they should attempt come up with an
acceptable name. So far as the series was concerned, they stuck with
"historic" vessel from the U.S.  Navy. I think they should attempt
to bring in a name (or names) from other historic naval vessel.
(Remember, they are set in a time when world peace is reality) So
why not a historic British ship or maybe even a German or Russian
ship or even something from an other Federation planets Naval past?

                                "        !"
                                        Brian C. Sudis

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Aug 84 10:25 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Court Martial?

For what it's worth:

    In recent history (last 10 years or so), general officers (U.S.
Army sticks in my mind) who ***spoke*** out against the
administration were not courtmartialed (of course, they hadn't
stolen anything quite so valuable as a starship).  These poor (?)
fellows spoke their minds and opinions which happened to be
countrary to government (stated) policy.  Normally, what happens is
he is offered a new assignment which is drastically below his
current assignment, in prestige, responsibility, etc.  (For example,
a 2-star general might be offerred a 1-star's job...not good!)
Normally, the erring officer then exercises his option to retire
rather than accept the "down-grade" assignment.
    In worse offenses (like speaking your mind and saying the
President was wrong, but not treason, murder, etc), the service has
been known to give the officer the option: you may retire, or you
may have a courtmartial...the option is only given when the service
is concerned about the image of its officer corps or its own image.
    Because discipline is so very important during war, the Services
have to demand discipline during non-wartime to ensure it is
available when needed.  This leads to a variety of responses to
non-capital offenses during peace time, from verbal reprimands to
courtsmartial...lest we forget, capital punishment is still a viable
punishment for a court to award...although there are regulations
saying which offenses can use capital punishment.  (It has been a
long time since anyone was executed for it, but rape is still
punishible by death under courtmartial regulations!)
    Although the public may not know or realize it, most officers in
any branch of US Service (and probably the enlisted personnel even
better) can read between the lines and see the disciplinary action
in most cases (which are publicized).  And, for that reason the
military community understands or knows what is going on, even if
the general public doesn't.  For example, several years ago an Army
general in Hawaii came out on at least two occasions and said in
polite politicalese that the President's policy in a particular area
was wrong...the first time he made a public apology...30 days after
the last one he announced his retirement!
    Sorry about the lesson on military justice...the bottom line is,
that I feel Starfleet would consider the above and come out with
something like the following; probably playing on Kirk's
"officership":
    "For the good of the corps, discipline must be maintained!"  I
think a courtmartial would be required for Admiral Kirk, unless he
were a hero in the public's eye.  In that case, he would be offered
his choice of retirement or some very obscure underling job
somewhere....[and once you've tasted power it is hard to go without
it!]
    Flames and discussions on this topic can and should be addressed
to me at my EMAIL address: rtaylor at radc-multics
                                  Roz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Aug 84 23:28 EDT
From: Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Kirk's future with Starfleet

  Kirk's future with Starfleet isn't necessarily as bleak as some
people suggest. Remember that in any Navy that ever has existed (and
presumably, ever will exist) rank and promotion at the command level
depends in large part on political influence.

     In this case, it is quite likely that Kirk will have the
Vulcans in his corner, as welll as some of the other races he and
his crew helped at various times. Starfleet may not like it, but it
is quite possible they will find the most expedient thing to do is
to gloss over the whole incident. After all, Kirk's action kept a
potentially devastating weapon out of the hands of an implacable
enemy of the Federation.

    That doesn't necessarily mean Kirk will continue to climb the
promotion ladder, however. His career had almost certainly been
damaged.  However he has repeatedly shown that he he is more
effective as a ship commander than as an admiral. The logical thing
to do would be to give him a ship and send him out on a "five year
mission to explore strange new worlds. To boldly go where no man has
gone before"...or something like that. Who knows, they may even bust
him back to captain.

  STIV anyone?

Rick Cook (using a friend's mailbox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Aug 84 09:56 EDT
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #150

As any Treker knows, Kirk's serial number (from memory now) is:

SC 937-0176 CEC

As for Tiberius, it has long been known that this was Kirk's middle
name, long before the animated episodes or novelizations.  I do not
remember if it was ever stated in the shows.  The likely places it
may be found are ion the grave stone in Where No Man Has Gone
Before, Courtmarshal, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield giving
destruct orders, And it Must be on Kirk's Starship Pilot License!!!

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 84 16:54:49 EDT
From: Will Martin <wmartin@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Matter Transmission

We had a long discussion involving matter transmission a few years
back on the SF-Lovers Digest, inspired mainly by a posting I made
about possible forms of transportation in future societies. Not to
rehash that, but because I happened to be thinking a bit more on the
subject, I thought I'd send in this submission for what it is
worth...

I think that few SF authors who happen to use matter transmission as
an ingredient or background in their work recognize all the
implications of the technology. I speak here of electro-mechanical
methods, not of psi powers like teleportation. I contend that, if
you have matter transmission, you also have matter duplication.
People offer arguments against that, speculating that it might be
impossible to store the information necessary to reconstruct complex
things like living organisms or the like, but it seems doubtful that
such restrictions would last long if they existed at all.

Matter duplication has profound implications for every aspect of
life and social structure. The idea that you feed dirt, garbage,
radioactive waste, or whatever in one end of the device, and at the
other end take out diamonds, steak dinners, the Mona Lisa, more
matter duplicators, pets, or people destroys all concepts of
"wealth", "status", or "value", and not only grants immortality but
also simultaneously makes life, human or otherwise, value-less.
(What difference does it make if you kill somebody if he can be
re-created from the last recorded pattern? You maybe made him lose
an hour or a day of time; nothing more.)

It grants immortality by "editing in the mix", as it were -- when
you pass through the matter transmitter to go out for dinner, at the
same time as it zips you to the restaurant on Tahiti or on Cygnus 4,
it recreates you without crud in your arteries, stones in your
kidneys, excess fat cells, cancer cells, dirt on your skin, or waste
in your intestines or bladder; it can even bring you out with your
hair combed (and more or less of it, as you wish!) and dressed in a
tuxedo. We have just eliminated the need for clothes closets and
bathrooms, among other facilities, like hospitals.

Would you like to make a ringworld or a Dyson sphere? Just feed in
dust, plasma, or gas giants into one end of a BIG matter duplicator,
and get out a stream of ringworld material at the other end. Or get
out Earth-like planets in an endless row -- could our orbit hold a
few hundred Earths, equidistantly spaced far enough to minimize
excess tides on each? Churn out as many as you want -- you could
create them with the proper motion necessary to slip right into
orbit as desired.

Is your universe dying down? Feed in old, feeble stars and put out
bright young main-sequence stars, chock-full of unburned hydrogen,
complete with fresh planetary systems. To hell with entropy!

Talk about science indistinguishable from magic!

Anyway, what I am getting at, besides all the purple prose (*), is
that a writer who throws in matter transport but leaves the rest of
the fictional society exactly like ours, or medieval Europe, or
whatever, is being inconsistent. Anyone like to nominate writers and
works where the implications of the technology are taken to the
fullest (at least as far as a book or series can go)?

Will

(*) If you poured a bottle of Burgundy over several members of
the SFWA, would they be "purple pro's"? [Evil chuckle....]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #153
Date:  8 Aug 84 1153-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #153
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Aug 84 1153-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #153
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Aug 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:

      Books - Piper & Robots & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) &
              ParaTechnoMysticism (2 msgs),
      Films - Hyams & Star Trek,
      Miscellaneous - SF Cons List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 7 Aug 84 13:15:09 EDT
Subject: Fuzzies and Other Sequels

I just finished FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE, the "lost" Fuzzies novel
by H. Beam Piper.  I can summarize the plot without it being any
spoiler at all: Fuzzies run around and have fun; some of them get
into trouble and get out again; everybody lives happily ever after.

I guess none of that should come as a surprise.

This is an interesting novel for another reason entirely: It was
found in a paper box labeled "pencil stubs" or "old bills" or
"Christmas cards" or something.  Poor, distraught Piper put the
manuscript in the wrong box and forgot about it in those last dark
days before he blew his brains out.  So the story goes.  I have
another theory: I think Piper was ashamed of the book and hid it
while he decided what could be done with it.

The book is utterly flat.  It tells us nothing about Fuzzies that we
didn't already know.  It tells us nothing about any of the major
characters (Jack Holloway, Pancho Ybarra, Gerd Riebeck, the whole
crowd of them sort of stand around and smoke cigarettes through the
whole book) nor does it show any major character learning anything,
or undergoing any kind of personality change.  Nobody gains
anything.  Nobody loses anything.  Nothing seems to matter a whit.

As I closed the book, I found myself devoutly wishing that no
further book on Fuzzies will ever be written.  Not because I don't
enjoy Fuzzies; I've read LITTLE FUZZY seven or eight times now.  But
the story has been told.  There simply isn't anything more in it.

I wished it because, if Fuzzies get too popular, the publishing
industry will smell money and make a series out of it: FUZZIES #5:
THE ZATKU PLAGUE by Alan Dean Foster and Jack Chalker.  If you get
my drift...

FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE solidifed my hatred of sequels for all
time.  A story starts somewhere, goes somewhere, and ends somewhere.
Someone gains, someone loses, someone learns; some truth is told.
Then the story is finished.  A sequel, on the other hand, is a
mechanical exercise which places familiar characters in a familiar
setting and makes them dance one more dance.  No one dares change
anything too much, because the existence of one sequel implies the
possibility of more.

Star Trek, which like all television-born fiction is nothing but a
series of sequels without an original work, can get away with what
it does because nobody really expects anything like a story in Star
Trek; one expects a stock collection of archetypes to do predictable
things within a tighly-bounded sphere of possibility.  What
surprises are there are minimized because they have no ultimate
effects.  Spock can't die; too many 14-year-olds would jump off of
bridges.  So you bring the chap back from the dead.  Nothing lost.
Nothing changed.

Star Wars had the good sense to End.  It was shallow, but it went
somewhere.  Dune, which was a medioche work to begin with, will
continue to spurt vapid sequels like a Gremlin undergoing Chinese
water torture until Herbert has the good sense to die or become a
real estate broker.  Dune, like Trek, has become high-tech soap
opera; each time a new sequel appears I read three pages and groan.

Worst of all, sequels can drag an original work down iunto the mud.
2010 hangs from 2001 like a titanium albatross; the crisp irony of
2001's closing is gone forever.

Building a new world from scratch is bold and risky.  Endless
slogging through old ones is safe and cowardly.  Piper's response
was best: If you write a sequel, put it in a box.  If all you can
write are sequels, it's time to move on to something else.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  7 Aug 1984 09:31-EDT
From: munck@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Re: Robots have no Tails -- Henry Kuttner

  Henry Kuttner it is. Rushing to the Kn-Ku box of my SF collection,
I find "Robots have no Tails" in both an undated Lancer edition
($.95 - maybe 73-75?) and a 1960 Ballantine ($.35 !).  According to
the foreword by his wife (C. L. Moore), they were written in the
early forties under the name Lewis Padgett and published mostly in
ASF.

  Thanks for the pointers; a linear search through my 3K+ SF books
would have taken months (with the probable digressions for
re-reading).  BTW, the name is "Galloway Gallegher", Gallegher with
an "e" and Galloway because that was the name in the first story and
Kuttner forgot it while writing the second.  Gallegher tended to
call the robot "Narcissus," but it insisted that its name was Joe.
               -- Bob Munck

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Aug 84 11:35 PDT
From: Alfke.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Matter Transmission

Some flames regarding Will Martins discussion of matter
transmission/duplication:

Matter transmission would not inevitably lead to duplication.  It
would (eventually) if methods of the form "record-everything-about-
the-object-then-transmit-this-to-the-receiver-which-then-rebuilds-it"
were used (although you could set your story in the intervening time
(centuries?)  before it is discovered how to record such an insanely
high-bandwidth signal.  However, it seems quite possible that
teleportation devices might use quantum-mechanical means, in which
the object's probability waveform is distorted so as to reach
maximum in some distant location.  (How this could be done while
still maintaining the proper constraints on the waveform's shape is
beyond me; let some real scientist figure that one out.)

Additionally, even having the ability to record the signal
describing an object does not automatically grant the ability to
change it in subtle ways (removal of aging effects,
combing/uncombing of hair, and more were mentioned).  Maybe it would
eventually be perfected, but give it a few centuries after the
invention of the duplicator (remember, we need computers that can
comprehend the entire enormous signal...)

Other restrictions: Can the duplicator transmute elements, or do you
have to dump in sufficient amounts of the proper elements to create
something?  (Bit of a problem for rejuvenating stars.)  Even if it
can, can it transmute subatomic particles?

Even given all this stuff, I still refuse to believe that it
automatically grants you entropy reversal.  Entropy is such a
fundamental mathematical consequence of physical law, it will find
some method of increasing itself.  To build brand-new stars from the
ruins of old ones would probably require several stars-worth of
energy to be dumped in . . . (Any society which used duplicators
heavily would thus still require some fairly hefty source of power
to run them, and you can't cheat and allow the duplicators to
provide the energy.  Solar seems like the best bet.  Maybe the Dyson
sphere will become a necessity, just to trap all the sunlight?)

Boy!  Isn't science *fun* ????

~~Some further reading~~
Larry Niven, "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation"
        (Essay from All the Myriad Ways (Ballantine) )
        A nice essay, mostly summarizing methods from other books,
        but also offering a few ideas of its own.
George O. Smith, The Complete Venus Equilateral (Ballantine)
        A terrific series of stories from the 30's and 40's; a
        matter duplicator is eventually developed and nearly
        destroys "civilization as we know it".
                                                --Peter Alfke
                "I teleported home one day
                with Ron and Sid and Meg;
                Ron stole Maggie's heart away
                And I got Sidney's leg . . ."

------------------------------

Date: Tue 7 Aug 84 13:20:32-EDT
From: P. David Lebling <PDL@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Matter Duplication

The best matter duplication story I know of is Damon Knight's book,
"A for Anything."  In it, a cheap, easily made duplicator is
invented.  In the first chapter, civilization collapses.  Then
Knight skips ahead a few hundred years to look at the society
(basically a feudal one) that arises to deal with the duplicators.
The book is, I fear, out of print.

        Dave
        (pdl@xx)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Aug 84 10:55 PDT
From: Alfke.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: ParaTechnoMysticism

Another story that "deals with paramentalism and mysticism in a
technological future" is 'Little, Big' by John Crowley (an EXCELLENT
writer --- I enthusiastically recommend all four of his books to
everyone!).  This book deals with the simultaneous return of the
denizens of Faerie and an ancient force of evil, with the decaying
America of the next century as the backdrop.

One could call this book "fantasy" instead of "science-fiction", but
I have largely given up making such distinctions . . . in any case,
it's a wonderful book.
                                                -- Peter Alfke

                                "Man, woman, child --
                                All is up against the wall of
                                        SCIENCE"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Aug 84 13:11 PDT
From: susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Paratechnomysticism

On the subject of paratechnomysticism, A. E. vanVogt has a fairly
new book out called COMPUTERWORLD.  The book is set in a future
where the USA (or moral equivalent thereof) is largely controlled by
a vast, central computer with something on the order of eighteen
billion peripherals.  The entire book is written from the computer's
point of view, which is presented very believably.

The paratechnomysticsm comes in when the computer is fitted with
peripherals that allow it to monitor what I would call people's
"auras", but what vanVogt referred to as "bio-magnetic energies".
In response, a group of scientific mystics arises, protesting that
the computer is actually draining these energies, much to the
detriment of everybody's life force.  The mystics use the computer's
manipulation of these bio-magnetic energies to increase their own
power and find a really nifty conclusion to the story.

I don't know if this is the kind of paratechnomysticism you were
looking for, but I would recommend it as an entertaining story (if
you can ignore the gaping holes in vanVogt's knowledge of computer
science).

-- Josh Susser

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  6 Aug 1984 05:59:35-PDT
From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy SFX Dearborn, DTN:
From: 264-5090)
Subject: Peter Hyams, Director of 2010

Just a little bit of trivia about Peter Hyams, the director of 2010:
Odyssey Two: His first film was "T.R.Baskin."  It was an awful film,
shot in Chicago, staring Candice Bergen.  Before that, he was a
newscaster on the channel 2 news in Chicago.  He seems to be known
for turning out very average, very "safe" films.  I hope that his
skills have improved on 2010.
                                      Randy Dearborn
                                      Digital Media Services
                                      Merrimack, NH
                                      SAGE::DEARBORN
                                      603-884-5090
F.A.B.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Aug 84 02:28 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek -- Canon and Deadwood

David George brings up an excellent point for discussion: what are
the boundaries of the Star Trek universe?  Not geographically, but
in terms of source material.

I have noticed a few things, however.  While I would certainly not
be at all willing to allow the Star Trek books, as a general rule,
to be official source material, I should point out that at least one
original novel, to my knowledge, has been used by Harve Bennett.

All through the three seasons, two characters were never given
names.  Oh, we knew James Kirk, Montgomery Scott, Leonard McCoy,
Pavel Chekov, Christine Chapel, and even Janice Rand.  But it was
always Mr. Sulu, and Lieutenant Uhura.  The first Star Trek novel
published by Pocket Books changed that.  Sulu was a key character,
and was given a name: Hikaru.  The novel was THE ENTROPY EFFECT by
Vonda McIntyre.  It was natural, therefore, for her to insert that
name into the novelization of THE WRATH OF KHAN, though it never
appeared in the movie.  In ST III, however, the name Hikaru is said
by Kirk (in the living room scene which Sarek interrupts); the quote
is "Uhura, Pavel, Hikaru...".  Sulu now has a first name officially
inserted into the ST canon.  The strange thing is that, in an
informal setting, he still calls the Lt. by her last name.

Well, now Uhura HAS a first name.  In Diane Duane's MY ENEMY, MY
ALLY, it is Nyota Uhura.  (And furthermore, she is ranked a Lt.
Commander, while Sulu and Chekov are still Lieutenants.)  Now, I'm
not sure I buy that ranking, because she's just a Commander in the
most recent movie, while both Sulu and Chekov have gone beyond that
rank, and I can't believe she'd be that much slower than they would.
However, as far as I'm concerned, she's Nyota Uhura, and I hope the
next movie or movie adaptation confirms it, because she's needed a
first name for nearly 20 years.  Three cheers for Diane Duane.

Because Hikaru was taken from THE ENTROPY EFFECT, does that mean the
novel also becomes canon?  Or because characters and situations from
that novel are referred to in the novelizations of the second and
third movies, do they therefore gain respectability?  To that
latter, more than the former, I would say yes.  So much of both
movies ended up on the cutting room floor, some of the books are
just restoring scenes that should never have been cut in the first
place.  And for the rest, well, I trust Vonda McIntyre.  She is not
only a highly competent writer, but she knows her Star Trek, and has
great affection for the material.

In my view, THE ENTROPY EFFECT is also to be allowed to join canon,
as McIntyre has managed to integrate it so well with her movie
novelizations.  With less conviction, I allow certain of the novels
into the canon, because they don't violate anything I hold dear,
because they add important details (MY ENEMY, MY ALLY, and, because
it introduces several characters found in MEMA, her first novel, THE
WOUNDED SKY, both by Diane Duane; she gave Uhura a first name), and
because they are well written AND good ST adventures.

I will, as a general rule, discount any fan fiction and most of what
was published by Bantam and Ballantine.  I think, however, little
bits of information from the cartoon series can be accepted.
Specifically, the expansion of James T. Kirk to James Tiberius Kirk.
Lets face it, the episode was written by David Gerrold, who wrote
THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES.  It filled out information we had (T. to
Tiberius), and Gerrold is one of the big ST mavens.  I have no doubt
that whoever writes ST IV is going to have, as part of the bio
sheets on all the characters, the name of James Tiberius Kirk, with
the added info that the T. is commonly used.

Most of the criteria here is highly personalized, but I'd be willing
to thrash out something more 'logical' and generalized.  What do the
rest of you want to do?
                                Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Fri 3 Aug 84 00:39:53-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: SF Cons list updated

SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for
FTP.  SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.  CONS.TXT is currently 999 lines (or 45,361
characters).

For those desiring a hardcopy of the list, a "pocket" version (4.25"
x 11", 1/4-size print) is available for 50 cents at St. Louis in '88
bid parties, or 75 cents via mail from:

   St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid
   PO Box 1058
   St. Louis, MO  63188

Hope to see you all at L.A.Con II,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #154
Date: 10 Aug 84 1219-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #154
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Aug 84 1219-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #154
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 10 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:

         Books - Anthony & Delany & MacAvoy & May & Piper &
                 Sequels & Matter Transmission (5 msgs),
         Films - The Last Starfighter & Star Wars & 
                 Buckaroo Banzai & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 84 17:48:10-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!whuxle!eric @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Ghostbusters & Lieber

Well, how about "On a Pale Horse", a recent offering from that book
cranker outer, Piers Anthony. In said story, we have Zane, an
inhabitant in a near future Earth. Science hasn't advanced much, but
MAGIC and SUPERNATURAL have come to the front. Zane becomes Death,
in the mythilogical sense, Satan plays a part, we have potions,
stones, carpets, and everything else.... a GREAT read (now what
Piers? where's the Xanth book? I'm waiting!!!!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 8 Aug 84 13:42:48-PDT
From: Sam Hahn <SHahn@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Delany's

"The Tides of Lust".  How does one obtain a copy these days?  I
understand it's out of print.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 Aug 84 11:22:37-PDT
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: R. A. MacAvoy

AUTOGRAPH PARTY

R. A. MacAvoy will be autographing her books on

SUNDAY, AUGUST 19   from 3 to 5 pm      at

Future Fantasy,   2033 El Camino Real, Palo Alto   327-9242

Her books:

Tea With the Black Dragon   (Hugo and Nebula nominee)

Domiano
Domiano's Lute
Raphael       (due in for the party)

Bring your books and meet the author.

(Future Fantasy is in the first block south of Stanford University.)

------------------------------

Date: 06 Aug 84 11:10:25 PDT (Mon)
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-750a>
Subject: Julian May and The Adversary

   I just received the final book (yes, it is the final book) in the
Julian May's Pliocene Era tetrology. I couldn't resist peeking at
the end of the book to see if this was indeed the final chapter, but
May fans need not fret; there is a new trilogy under way that covers
the events of the rebellion in the Galactic Milieu.

   If any of you out there are time travel or psychic power fans -
you should not miss this series. It presents some rather interesting
ideas. And if you are not fans - read it anyway - it's good fun.

   More on the latest book, The Adversary, when I finish reading it.

                        Greg (finnegan@uci-750a)

"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Aug 84 10:18:04 edt
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: H. Beam Piper

   I have read that the proximate cause of his suicide (aside from
possible worship of Hemingway) was the news that the last part of
the magazine serialization that became LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN had
been irretrievably lost by the Post Offal (apparently Piper was the
sort of person who believed that Real Men don't use carbon paper).
This turned out to be false, but by then it was too late. . . .
   I wouldn't swear to this, since it sounds a little too
Hollywoodesque to have really happened.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 8 Aug 84 23:46:00-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Sequels

A rousing Hurrah! to Jeff Duntemann's diatribe against sequels.

Yes, even "2010"; even "Foundation's Edge"; even "Gods of
Riverworld"; even "Vice-Presidential Candidate of Dune"; ...

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  8 Aug 1984 04:56:38-PDT
From: bluejay%raven1.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Re: A Matter of Transmission

Re: the use of matter transmitters to dress you on the way to the
theater and cleaning up your insides:

Larry Niven's novel "A World out of Time" uses displacement booths
for just such a purpose.

(Slight spoiler)

In one scene, our hero jumps into a displacement booth and pushes
the button, trying to get away from the bad guys. Much to his
surprise, he goes no where, but he notices that a cloud of 'stuff'
appears in the booth across the room. He runs off, and later we find
that the colour is returning to his hair, etc...

(End spoiler)

From the flapping feathers of       | The above text does not in any
    ...decwrl!rhea!raven1!Bluejay   | represent the views, thoughts,
    or on the DEC Enet,             | or anything else or any person,
          Raven1::Bluejay           | institution, organization,
                                    | company, or sentient being,
                                    | other than [perhaps] myself.

------------------------------

Date: 9 August 1984 00:22-EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Matter Transmission
To: Alfke.PASA @ XEROX

I am rather surprised that no one has mentioned Ray Brown's
''Reformed Sufi'' universe, which relates the ''Transmat'' matter
transmission device and the religion(!) which develops due to it.
Recent stories have developed an interesting twist to the
store-and-forward method of matter transmission -- matter
simulation!

Rather than storing the pattern to real-world objects and
duplicating them in the real-world, why not just place the
''object'' in a pattern for a small part of the universe (a pocket
universe) and simulate its activity?  After all, if you can store
all that data you should also be able to process it!

This leads to some interesting results.  For example, the simulated
world can run at normal speed, or faster or slower.  Or backwards.
Or with different ''physical laws.''  Or ... well, see the stories.

(Is this the real world, or just a simulation?)
-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Aug 1984 06:01:34-PDT
From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Social Effects of Matter Transmitters

Will Martin asked about stories that discuss (mechanical) matter
transmitters and how they might change society.

Larry Niven, "Exercise in Speculation: The Theory and Practice of
Teleportation" (C) 69 Galaxy.  In @i(All the Myriad Ways),
Ballantine, 71.

  An excellent discussion on how society might change given
  teleporters with different characteristics.  (Cost per pound
  moved, maximum range, ...)

Larry Niven, "Flash Crowd" (C) 73, @i(Three Trips in Time and Space)
Dell, 73, Robert Silverberg, Ed.  Also in @i(The Flight of the
Horse), Ballantine 73.

  What happens when a large number of people can 'port into one
  small area quickly?

Larry Niven, "Alibi Machine" and "All the Bridges Rusting" (C) 73
Vertex, "A @i(Kind) of Murder" (C) 74 Analog, "The Last Days of the
Permanent Floating Riot Club", all in @i(A Hole in Space),
Ballantine 74.

   Misc. topics.

(I stopped researching at home at this point, the rest is sketchy
because it is from my memory.)

Larry Niven, "A World out of Time".

  Although "instant elsewhere" machines form only a small part of
  this novel, you may find it interesting.

Alfred Bester, @i(The Stars My Destination).

  This is a SF classic dealing with the implications of
  non-mechanical teleportation (called "Jaunting").

George O. Smith, @i(The Complete Venus Equilateral) has a couple of
stories dealing with mechanical teleportation.

  I can't remember the names but I recommend that you read every
  story anyway as they are lots of fun to read ("Dad, you ran Venus
  Equilateral on VACUUM TUBES").

Jack Williamson & somebody else, @i(Wall Around a Star) and its
predecessor or successor.

  Matter transmitters are indeed duplicators. They are expensive
  enough that there is (usually) one person per planet and so they
  don't change society.  I add these novels for the sake of
  completeness and don't particularly recommend them.  They do allow
  for 'editing' so you might want to give them a try.

There was also a story on this in Analog recently (within a year or
two) -- I will search for it when I get home.

Andy Vesper

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 84 5:40:40-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Matter Transmitters

Nick Graham's analysis of the strictly materialistic case is too
simple, I think.  Even without postulating a soul (not that there's
any reason not to), it may be that a crude matter duplicator gets
things pretty close to right, but doesn't quite reproduce all the
subtleties of a real object (electric charge distribution?
isomers?); this would still make it useful for gross objects, might
make it useful for duplicating food (depending on the level of
accuracy) and even complex electronics (since they get their state
reset when power comes on), but perhaps not good enough to duplicate
a living body and keep it living.  This, of course, would lead a
good percentage of the people in this hypothetical world to believe
that the problem was with duplicating the soul or life-force or
something, even though it would also prevent duplication of animals,
which in Christian theology don't have souls.

Let's see, doesn't Damon Knight's A for Anything deal with matter
duplication?

        -- David Dyer-Bennet
        -- {decvax|ihnp4|purdue|allegra}!decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 84 11:44:41-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission

Actually, in Venus Equilateral, the matter duplicator LOST the
fight.  It tossed very large snowballs with a catapult. They
opposition noticed the regularity of the pattern, dodged it, and
buried the operator under his own snowballs.

All in all it is an amusing book.

David C. Kovar
    USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk
    ARPA:       davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay
    CSNET:      davidk@dartmouth

"The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Aug 84 10:19:54 edt
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: The Last Starfighter

   Computer-generated images: bah, humbug! So they did all sorts of
things that can't be done with models? At least the models in other
movies looked reasonably real. And what price absence of image
degradation (from multiplied shots) when the image is unbelievably
flat in the first place?  It wasn't quite as noticeable with
Centauri's car, but I got quite a jolt when they cut from the
generated picture of a hangar full of fighters to a shot of people
gathered around the base of one; all you could see was one leg of
the ship but it was made the previous shot look terribly faked.
   I wasn't that happy about the rest of the film, either, but then
I hated ET (I really don't like movies that are disgustingly obvious
about trying to pluck the viewers' heartstrings), and tLSf is
tolerable eyewooze for a Saturday night.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 84 7:45:24-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!microsoft!fluke!moria
From: rty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Next SW film begins production

Not being a standard reader of CINEFANTASTIQUE (in fact, I hear
nasty comments about them from a lot of filmakers), how reliable is
this information?  The news itself is incredible, but hearing that
Spielberg is involved, and digital animation....

Never thought I'd ever have anything nice to say about Linda
Rondstadt!
                        "This looks like a job for BICYCLE REPAIRMAN!"

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
 {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax}
  -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
        fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 2:36:52-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: BUCKAROO BANZAI

There's a new sf/fantasy film being released this weekend called
BUCKAROO BANZAI Just the other day I finished reading the
novelization (by Earl Mac Rauch, who is the creator of Buckaroo and
company and wrote the screenplay). Actually, I'm not sure that it
classifies as a novelization any more than the book 2001: A SPACE
ODYSSEY by Clarke classifies as a novelization of the movie.
Anyways, the book is terrific, and I recommend it regardless of how
the movie turns out.
        It's a *very* strange book. The story is not an easy one to
describe, nor is the general feel of the book. The best I can do is
that it reads like a combination of Doc Savage, the Illuminati, and
the Monkees. And then, it starts to get weird...
        What else can one say about a book that contains characters
with names like Buckaroo Banzai, Reno Nevada, Rawhide, Big Norse,
and Dr. Emilio Lizardo?  Not to mention the hordes of Lectroids from
Planet 10 (all of whom are named John), the Nova Police, the
Oscillation Overthruster, the Hong Kong Cavaliers, the Blue Blaze
Irregulars, or even the death dwarves.
        The only books that I've read that match BUCKAROO BANZAI in
weirdness are the Illuminati books by Robert Shea and Robert Anton
Wilson, and a novel by Jody Scott called PASSING FOR HUMAN. If you
liked any of those, you're likely to like this.
        How good the movie will be depends on how well the director
(W.D. Rich- ter, in his directorial debut --- he's previously been a
screenwriter) can pull off the weirdness. If he can, it'll be a hit;
if he can't, it'll be a bomb. Anyways, as I said, the book is
definitely worth reading.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Aug 1984 01:59:00-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: Nyota Uhura & the Star Trek canon

> From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> Subject: Star Trek -- Canon and Deadwood

> Well, now Uhura HAS a first name.  In Diane Duane's MY ENEMY, MY
> ALLY, it is Nyota Uhura....  ...as far as I'm concerned, she's
> Nyota Uhura, and I hope the next movie or movie adaptation
> confirms it, because she's needed a first name for nearly 20
> years.  Three cheers for Diane Duane.  ...she gave Uhura a first
> name...

While I have no wish to denigrate the contributions of Diane Duane
to the Star Trek universe, I feel obliged to point out that she was
*not* the person who gave Uhura a first name.  Giving credit where
credit is due, it was William Rotsler.
        Back when STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN was released,
Simon and Schuster, owners of Pocket Books and thus the Star Trek
publishing rights, published under their Wanderer Books ("juvenile")
imprint three tie-in books, all trade paperbacks by William Rotsler.
One was a collection of short stories, all taking place, if I
remember correctly, while the *Enterprise* is returning to Earth
from Genesis. The second was one of those ubiquitous
"choose-your-own-adventure" interactive fiction books.  The third
was a series of biographical sketches of the various Trek
characters. It was in *this* book that Uhura was given the first
name Nyota. It is to Duane's credit that she acknowledged this
contribution to the Star Trek mythos.
        BTW, the bio book is pretty awful in general. A good part of
it is synopses of various episodes that had significance to the
lives of one character or another. There are also numerous
"excerpts" from non-existent books written about or by the various
characters. The bibliography in the back is a scream if you can get
all of the hidden references to real sf authors and big-name fans.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #155
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 84 1300-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #155
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:

             Books - Delany & Gibson & Leiber & Piper &
                     Matter Transmission (5 msgs),
             Films - Star Wars & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - WorldCon & Trivia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 10:14:00-PDT (Thu)
From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Delany's

> "The Tides of Lust".  How does one obtain a copy these days?  I
> understand it's out of print.

        Good bloody luck. In my years of collecting, I have seen
exactly two copies of that "jewel". The one I got, I sold for $10,
and that was five years ago. If it helps at all, it is a pink book,
and was put out by lancer, and can on VERY rare occasions be found
in used porno sections (that's where I found mine).

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

P.S. I didn't like the book, but then I don't like Delaney.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 Aug 84 10:18:47-PDT
From: PALEVICH%hp-labs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: "Neuromancer" review

This is a recommendation for William Gibson's new book,
"Neuromancer".

If you like "Shockwave Rider", "True Names", "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress", "Fire Ship", and the movie "BladeRunner", then you will
probably like "Neuromancer", William Gibson's first SF novel.

If you read Omni, you'll remember Gibson's two earlier stories,
"Johny Mnemonic", and "Burning Chrome".  His novel is set in the
same world as his two short stories -- a world of urban violence and
corporate empires, much like Alfred Bester's "Gulf"/"Golem 100".

It's your classic "Heist" plot-line; the hero is hired to break into
a computer, which he eventually does.  But the author has a style of
story telling that's like Varley at his best.  Very visual;
sensory.

This book reads like a fever dream; I spent five hours straight on
it.

Lots of neat ideas, sexy violence and violent sex, with a satisfying
bittersweet ending.

Jack Palevich

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 23:55:43-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Leiber and paratechnomysticism

I believe Fritz Leiber was the first to write stories based on the
notion that people create gods appropriate to their environment and
that these gods then forcefully demand worship.  Thus, the high
concentrations of people in cities create powerful gods appropriate
to cities: generally rather unpleasant ones.  Two of these stories
are _Smoke Ghost_ and _The Hound_.  Harlan Ellison's collection
_Deathbird Stories_ is based on the same idea.

        Another novel by Fritz Leiber which I highly recommend is
_Conjure Wife_, which deals with the practice of witchcraft in the
anthropology department of a small college.  As in _Our Lady of
Darkness_, Leiber is able to sustain a mood of increasing suspense
and horror for hundreds of pages, finally bringing it to a climax.
Don't be put off by the packaging of the current Ace edition--it's
not what it looks like.  (Note to the people at universities: if you
think you have trouble with department politics, you ain't seen
nuthin' yet.)

Jim Janney
{{ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax, {purdue,lbl-csam,ihnp4!cmcl2}!lanl-a}!
   unm-cvax!janney

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Aug 84 20:15:32 PDT
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Piper Manuscripts

>    I have read that the proximate cause of his suicide (aside from
> possible worship of Hemingway) was the news that the last part of
> the magazine serialization that became LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN
> had been irretrievably lost by the Post Offal (apparently Piper
> was the sort of person who believed that Real Men don't use carbon
> paper).  This turned out to be false, but by then it was too late.
> . . .

        I have seen someplace between 4 and 7 Piper manuscripts, and
they were ALL carbons (with various changes in Piper's hand). The
currently "accepted" story is that he committed suicide because he
thought he couldn't support himself writing, and had a moral
repugnance against welfare.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 84 15:47:05-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!bragvax!david @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission

I don't think the economic effect of technological (non-magical)
matter transmitters/duplicators would be very dramatic (especially
when compared to the other effects).  Energy would still be a
useful/logical currency, and the economic situation would not be all
that different.  For example, only the wealthiest organizations
would possess the (energy) capital to synthesize a new matter
transmitter.  It would take a great deal of wealth to even rent one.
(Can you afford to rent an oil refinery for one day, much less
construct one?)

Of course, I may be wrong.  I'm assuming that the efficiency of a
generalized matter transmuter would be very low.

Do I smell home cooking?  It's only the river.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 84 9:33:09-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!nick @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda.

Somehow, this business of matter transmission and self-duplication
seems to be one of those questions that keeps coming up.  It would
seem to me that the result of the exact physical duplication of a
human being will be dependent upon what actually makes up a human
being.  Either you take a view that man consists of his physical
component only, or else you take the view that in addition to man's
material flesh and bones form, there is 'something else' that gives
man his elevated place in the animal world.  Elaboration:

If you follow a strictly traditional evolutionary view, and say that
man is just a collection of chemicals that has attained through
evolutionary selection an illusion of consciousness, then fine: the
exact duplication of every molecule of somebody's body will create a
new, living human being.  However, there is no reason to assume that
this new being in any sense would provide a continuity for the
original person should the original person cease to exist upon the
creation of the duplicate.  If you were to give me, say, a small
wooden statue, I could meticulously copy every detail of it, and
create a new statue that to all external tests would appear to be
the same statue.  However, if I were to burn your statue, I do not
think that I could seriously claim that your statue still existed.
Only one rather like it.

If you believe that there is more to man than his physical form (eg,
a soul), then simply copying the physical form is not going to be
good enough.  The crucial part, the soul is not going to be captured
during the molecular-level transfer.  This is a little more scary:
imagine, a matter transfer takes place, the body is transmitted, the
soul remains stranded outside the evaporated original host body, and
a new, soulless body is assembled at the other end of the
transmitter.  The soul makes it's merry way off to the next world,
but what happens to the body?  If we follow the Christian religion,
it is quite possible for a body to survive without a soul -- animals
do it all the time.  So do we, in one fell swoop, wipe out the souls
of every person on earth?  Sounds like a good 50's horror movie.
All we need is a mad scientist...

Anyway, that's about it as far as I can see.  I don't claim to know
whether a soul exists or not; however neither situation seems really
thrilling to me.  Guess I'll never walk into a matter transmitter.

                                        Nick Graham,
                                        University of Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 84 0:51:47-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: U-Haul (matter transmission)

For an interesting analysis of matter transmission as a stored
record phenomenon, see "Farthest Star" and "Wall Around A Star" by
Frederick Pohl and Jack Williamson.

This was collected as "The Saga of Cuckoo" by Sci Fi book club.

It has all sorts of interesting ramifications.  The transmitter does
NOT transmit.  It makes a copy.  Energy and matter are fed in the
receiver and reformatted into an exact copy of the item (however
complex) in the sender.

They did get into the moral and human implications of this.  Ignore
the ending, it seems to be more of their rather insipid
techno-humanist crapola.  The real story comes in the effects of
this one new technology on all the races, and the whole Cuckoo thing
merely provides a not-too-original not-very-plausible conflict to
catalyze the action.

  Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 84 13:15:40-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda.

        "The exact duplication of every molecule of somebody's body
        will create a new, living human being."

Setting aside for the moment the transmission of the "soul", there's
still the conflict with Heisenberg's thesis, which states [briefly]
that you can't exactly determine both the position and the velocity
of a subatomic particle.  Without this information, you can't
replicate the particle with its velocity.

And, yes, I agree that this thesis may well prove to be
surmountable, but some pretty heavy present-day theory rests on it.
Anyway, it makes as much sense to cling to Heisenberg as to the
Einsteinian anti-FTL claims ...

Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                  (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Aug 1984 05:12:59-PDT
From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: More on matter tranmitters and social effects

Larry Niven, "A World out of Time" is Ballantine '76 (portions from
Galaxy '71 and '76)

Alfred Bester, @i(The Stars My Destination) was in Galaxy in '56, I
found it in @i(A Treasury of Great Science Fiction, Vol 2), Anthony
Boucher, Ed. Doubleday '59.

George O. Smith, "Special Delivery" Astounding Mar '45 and
"Pandora's Millions" Astounding June '45, both in @i(The Complete
Venus Equilateral) Ballantine '76.

Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson, @i(The Farthest Star) Ballantine
'75 and @i(Wall Around A Star) Ballantine '83.

I haven't found the story in Analog I was looking for, but here is a
consolation prize.

Ray Brown, "A Change of Employment", Analog August '82.

There is a sequel, far better than this story, but I didn't find it
in the few minutes before leaving home this morning.  I will
continue searching.

Andy Vesper

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 84 7:40:45-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!alice!td @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Next SW film begins production

When I heard that this rumor had started at Cinefantastique, I
discounted it immediately.  This publication has an unaccountable
grudge against Lucasfilm, and anything they say is suspect.
Nevertheless, I checked the rumor out with two independent sources
at Lucasfilm.  While neither source is an ultimate authority (i.e.
not George or Steven), both were people in positions where I would
expect them to have definitive knowledge.  Both sources denied any
knowledge of any planned SW production.  Neither could state
certainly that a production would not be undertaken in the future,
but for the moment it appears that nothing is in the works.  (Note
that neither source said that no SW movie was in the works, only
that they knew of none.  Presumably this doesn't include the already
announced Ewok TV movie, due for broadcast in November.)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 10:03:32-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!barnett @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI

I've been seeing trailers for this movie on TV during the Olympics,
and I noticed one thing that really intrigued me.  There is a scene
shown where some sort of craft comes crashing through a brick wall.
On the brick wall, there's a painted billboard which says:

        YOYODYNE

Yoyodyne was the corporation at the center of the web of intrigue
generated by Thomas Pynchon in his novel "The Crying of Lot 49."
Does anyone know if this was just a quote, or if there's some more
concrete connection between Pynchon and Buckaroo Banzai?

By the way, if you like weird, Pynchon is for you.


Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX
78712

barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 14:10:25-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!guy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI

> On the brick wall, there's a painted billboard which says:
>       YOYODYNE
> Yoyodyne was the corporation at the center of the web of intrigue
> generated by Thomas Pynchon in his novel "The Crying of Lot 49."

While we're on the subject, the original article mentioned "the Nova
Police" as appearing in "Buckaroo Banzai"; I've not seen the movie
(yet), nor read anything by William Burroughs (yet), but I remember
the Nova Police mentioned as something from Burroughs' writing.  It
sounds like there's More to "Buckaroo Banzai" Than Meets the Eye...
- all the more reason to catch it.

(P.S. I second your comment on Pynchon.)

        Guy Harris
        {seismi,ihnp4,allegra}!rlgvax!guy

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 11:57:11-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!noao!kpnoa!parks @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: WorldCon

A previous message stated:

>  If you are going to be at L.A.Con and want more information on
>  location and time, send your electronic mail address to:
>  SF-LOVERS-PARTY-REQUESTS@MIT-MC

I'm sorry, but I can't seen to send mail to an ARPA address.  If
anyone knows how, I would like to find out.  In the meantime, yes I
will be there so please add me to the lists.

For some actual net-worthy comments:

Is there going to be a computer room at worldcon (c'mon, there must
be).  If so, is there any way we can get a tie-in to usenet?  A
modem to a mainframe or perhaps a real micro like Lauren's running
unix?

What hard materials should be brought?  Some ideas are:

For us experienced netters:

a complete transcript of the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net
hard copies of some of the best of net.jokes
bibliographies and samples of good computer SF
floppy disks (for people with personal computers) with your favorite
  programs for gift or trade
maps to the net (is there a real US map with the links shown
  geographically?)

For the novices, at the party or in the computer room

all of the above
listings of all the subject categories, net.*
instructions on using readnews, vnews, or whatever is being run
sample articles or controversies from some of the largest newsgroups
  (sf-lovers, micro, flame, etc)
statistics on the number of messages and data flow through the net
  nndaily

Well, those are some ideas.  Let me know if I can help.

                                Waiting for WorldCon,
                                     Jay Parks

(decvax!hao!ihnp4!seismo)!noao!parks     :uucp
Kitt Peak National Observatory           :U.S. Snail
950 N. Cherry, Tucson, AZ  85726

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 18:31:20-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!jett!brian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Brian Reynold's "Trivia" list

I kept things simple in my first trivia posting to insure an
adequate number of responses (and I might add, NOBODY has gotten
more than 24 questions yet!).  However, if you want it, give me a
while to prepare it (I have several other things to do first, such
as post my Zork spoiler to net.games) and I will come up with a
REALLY DIFFICULT SF/Fantasy trivia quiz...

                -- Brian Reynolds
                {ihnp4|clyde|sdcrdcf}!akgua!jett!brian

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #156
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 84 1341-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #156
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:

          Books - Crowley & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) &
                  Book Request,
          Films - Buckaroo Banzai,
          Miscellaneous - Mavens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Aug 84 03:40:23 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Reviews of THE DEEP and BEASTS by John Crowley

THE DEEP.  John Crowley.  Bantam, c1975; new edition 1984.
BEASTS.  John Crowley.  Bantam, c1976; new edition 1983.

It's taken me some time after reading John Crowley's ENGINE SUMMER
and LITTLE, BIG to get around to investigating his earlier works.
Both ENGINE SUMMER and LITTLE, BIG are fun books (although I incline
more toward LITTLE, BIG, despite its mammoth size and occasional
lapses into cuteness -- other people must have liked it too, since
it won the World Fantasy Award).  When an author has done so well
with their current material, there's always a little hesitation for
me in hunting up their older books; not infrequently a first novel
that has dropped out of sight thoroughly deserved its fate, and
reading it can spoil the taste of the other books.  How many people
have heard of Gene Wolfe's first novel, OPERATION ARES?  After
reading Harlan Ellison's comments, I've been afraid to even look for
it...

I was therefore very pleasantly surprised by THE DEEP and BEASTS.
Both novels have been reissued by Bantam books with striking new
covers by Yvonne Gilbert, part of the promotion for the mass market
edition of LITTLE, BIG.  Both books are well worth reading and I'm
curious how I managed to avoid hearing about them for so long.

BEASTS is the weaker of the two; it contains elements that prefigure
both ENGINE SUMMER and LITTLE, BIG and can perhaps be regarded as a
kind of transition book.  Painter is a leo, a member of a breed that
was created by fusing human and leonine genetic material using
recombinant DNA techniques.  The government of the US has crumbled
and all that remains are petty 'autonomies' which struggle to
maintain a semblance of authority.  The leos have evolved their own
alien culture living in the wild apart from humanity.  When we meet
Painter, however, he is on the run -- leos and other synthetic
species have become undesirables under a new revival of the central
government.  How is it possible to persuade human beings to preserve
something so unearthly as leos?  The book investigates this problem
at several different levels, from the experiences of humans in
direct contact with leos to the incredibly tangled politics of
xenophobia.  Although the problem is not really resolved at the end
of the book, it is still thought-provoking.  Despite the occasional
silliness of Crowley's assumptions (well, of course lion/humans act
just like lions that think; well, of course leos can communicate
telepathically with dogs, they're animals, aren't they?) and the
jumpiness of the plot line -- some important events take place off
stage, others are crammed together -- the book is worth reading for
the quality of its writing and characterization.

THE DEEP is full of beautiful images and is a surprisingly
satisfying book; what an impressive debut this was...  The title
refers to the void which surrounds the world, from whose bottomless
reaches rises the pillar of gleaming adamant that supports the
circles of human existence, through whose limitless spaces the Sun
must travel every night in order to return to its position in the
East at dawn, and from which a mysterious traveler arrives on a day
of battle.  He is found injured; a sword has cut open his head and
his memory has leaked out along with some of his curious blood.
Thrust into the conflict between the Reds and the Blacks, two
factions of the nobility who have perpetually struggled for
supremacy, the Visitor must learn about the destiny of human beings
before he can consider his own.  It's hard to say much about the
plot without saying too much, since it is very complicated, but one
interesting aspect is the existence of the Just, who are a secret
society whose purpose is to destroy the nobility and bring about the
rule of Leviathan, whose technique is assassination, whose weapon is
the Gun, a tool which despite its crudeness seems beyond the
technological level of the otherwise feudal society.  The 'answer'
to the riddle of the world's existence, when it comes, is really
amazing.  I liked THE DEEP a lot and I can recommend it as being of
a quality far superior to the current boring run of medieval
fantasies.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 11:14 EDT
From: Garnaat.henr@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Matter Transmission

The recent discussions re. matter transmission reminded me of a book
I recently read.  In "The Unteleported Man" by Phillip K. Dick,
future Earth (i.e. post World War III) perfects a technique of
matter transmission and uses it to shuttle colonists to an
Earth-like planet some 18 lightyears away.  Unfortunately the
teleportation mechanism is under the control of a huge corporation
whose motives, as discovered by the protaganist of the story, are
evil and mercenary.

Although I wouldn't say this is an example of a work "where the
implications of the technology are taken to the fullest" as Mr.
Martin was interested in, it does have an example of the kind of
matter modification mentioned in the original message.  In this
case, the operators of the teleportation equipment are able to
juxtapose the psyche of the teleported individual by overlaying
their mind with false definition of reality, referred to as a
"paraworld" by Dick.  This notion of "paraworlds" and false
realities provides a perfect backdrop for the kind of explorations
of schizophrenia common in many of Dick's books.  I found the book
interesting and well worth reading, although the ending seemed a bit
of a cop out.

While on the subject of the ending, I would like to pose a question
to anyone familiar with Dick's work.  The book I have is a
re-release (since his death, many of his novels have been
re-released) and claims to have the "original, uncensored" ending
which was supposedly left out of the original release for
"commercial" reasons.  My disapointment with the ending got me
wondering about the original book.  How does the ending differ? Or,
better yet, any ideas on where I could find a copy of the original
release?

Mitch

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 23:20:15 PDT (Fri)
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-750a>
Subject: matter transmitter

> Jack Williamson & somebody else, @i(Wall Around a Star) and its
> predecessor or successor.
>
> Matter transmitters are indeed duplicators. They are expensive
> enough that there is (usually) one person per planet and so they
> don't change society.  I add these novels for the sake of
> completeness and don't particularly recommend them.  They do allow
> for 'editing' so you might want to give them a try.

The book is by Jack W. and Fredrick Pohl.  But what makes the book
interesting is the fact that only copies of the source are
transmitted, that is, the object is not physically displaced.

This becomes interesting when the person sends a copy of himself to
some far off world. The copy would have the same physical
characteristics (unless they decide to alter them), not to mention
the same emotions, political beliefs, etc. This can lead to serious
episodes with (ex?) loved ones and old friends. So what about bank
accounts, taxes, and authorship -- does each copy receive credit,
the copy and the original (since he was responsible for the copy in
the first place), or just the copy himself?.

And do copies need permission from the original to make copies of
themselves (copyright infringement?); and what do you call each copy
 - John ver. 1.0, John ver. 1.1; and what about....

This may be the law practice of the future.

                        Greg (finnegan@uci-750a)
(I'm still waiting for a matter transmitter at my local ski resort
 - "what lift lines?")

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 8:50:28-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission

     How about pursuing the idea that matter
transmission/duplication is possible, but very energy intensive.  An
obvious figure is the energy content of the mass sent/copied, i.e.
E=mc^2.  The US electrical generating capacity is something like 6
grams/second.  What cargo/product would justify that?  This works
out to roughly $14,000 a gram.  A five carat (one gram) diamond just
about is worth that much.  Not much else is.  Certain rare postage
stamps, a few radioactive isotopes.
     Anyone have ideas on the consequences of this?

Dani Eder / Boeing Aerospace Company / ssc-vax!eder

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 7:31:21-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!allegra!down!eosp1!siemens!wws @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Trying to find a book...

About 10 years ago I had a paperback science fiction short story
anthology.  I lost it and don't remember the title or any
information about the book except for a couple of stories that I
remembered, and then, I don't remember the titles of the stories.

One of the stories was a kind of a mystery.  It started out with a
police investigation of a man in an apartment building dead with the
window of his apartment broken with all the glass knocked inside the
room.  Then the scene flashed back and we saw the man alive.  He had
an elaborate doll house that he imagined the dolls were really
alive.  I won't spoil the story any more than to say that the man
was God to the people in his doll house.

Another story that I remember involved a transport mechanism to an
alternate universe.  The alternate universe was based on Mother
Goose tales in all their gory details.  It resembled a war zone only
worse, and I think the people in the story ended up getting stuck
their.

A third story involved a space ship for faster-than-light travel.
The traveler went faster and faster until he left our universe.  In
the process he was magnified trillions of times until he was bigger
than the universe. What he found was that our galaxy was just an
atom on a slide in some scientist's laboratory in an even bigger
universe.  The traveler ends up talking to the scientist and I don't
remember much more about this story.

I was pretty young when I read these stories and would like to
re-read them to see how distorted my memories of them are.  If you
know the name of the anthology and its publisher, I would appreciate
you sending by e-mail enough information for me to get a copy of the
book.  (I won't be reading news for a while, so if you post a
response, I would appreciate being mailed a copy of the posting as
well.)

Bill Smith
ihnp4!mhuxi!princeton!siemens!wws

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 84 01:25:10 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Buckaroo Banzai"

"Buckaroo Banzai" (more accurately, "The Adventures of Buckaroo
Banzai: Across the 8th Dimension") is a very strange film.  As far
as I'm concerned, strangeness is a point in a film's favor.  I like
films which are different, and this is what pleased me most about
"Buckaroo Banzai".  (They could probably make a pretty good comedy
out of the meetings the creative folks had with the money folks,
trying to explain just what they wanted to do.)

This is a difficult one to summarize.  There's this guy, Buckaroo
Banzai (he's half Japanese).  He's the world's greatest neurosurgeon
and physicist.  He and his equally intellectual pals also form a hot
rock band, and save the world in their spare moments.  This has made
them tremendously popular with just about everyone.  Buckaroo has
just come up with a device called an overthruster, which allows him
to travel through solid objects by going into a different dimension.
Unfortunately, a much earlier experiment of the same kind screwed up
badly.  One of the participants in that experiment, a Dr.  Emilio
Lizardo, went insane, apparently.  Actually, his body was taken over
by an evil being from another dimension.  More of these beings,
exiled from their home dimension, are trying to build a craft to
return to their home, so that they can take it over again.  The
folks in charge there think this is a bad idea, and will blow up the
Earth, if necessary, to prevent it from happening.  Who can save us?
Why, Buckaroo Banzai, of course.

The plot is so far off the wall that it really doesn't pay to try to
delve into it in more detail.  Suffice to say that a lot happens
fast.  "Buckaroo Banzai" is blessed with a very fine script,
courtesy of Earl Mac Rauch, which moves quickly and always has a few
surprises.  Unfortunately, "Buckaroo Banzai" is a good example of
how important a director is to a film.  W.D. Richter had been a
writer up to this point.  This is his first directorial job.  He
isn't quite up to it.

Now, don't get me wrong.  Richter doesn't ruin the film, or
anything.  He's perfectly competent.  However, he takes what had the
potential to be a really fine film and fails in his assignment.  He
can't put across the script as well as it deserves.  The action
scenes never really thrilled me, and far too many of the neat throw
away bits were obviously from the script.  Nothing wrong with the
script being inventive, but it's so much better if the director is,
too.

Richter has mixed results with the actors.  Peter Weller plays the
title role.  He had two choices: he could underplay it or overplay
it, since the part would never work at a realistic level.  He chose
underplaying, and perhaps went a bit too far in that direction.
None the less, he looks comfortable in the part, so I can't complain
too much.  John Lithgow, who plays Dr. Lizardo, went in precisely
the opposite direction, with splendid results.  He plays it all with
a juicy Italian accent and definitely steals the picture.  (Lithgow
has tremendous range.  He went almost insane in "The Twilight Zone",
and played a nice, normal guy in "Terms of Endearment".  He played a
Bible Belt preacher in "Footloose" and a transexual in "The World
According to Garp".  For my money, he's one of the most talented
actors working in American films.)  Jeff Goldblum has a lot of fun
playing a brain surgeon who joins Buckaroo's team.  He's ready for
medicine, high tech, and rock and roll, but he hadn't figured on
saving the world quite so soon.  Some of the other actors playing
Buckaroo's sidekicks are able to make themselves stand out.  Some
aren't.  Ellen Barkin manages nicely as a girl Buckaroo saves from
suicide and prison, especially since the script requires her to
serve as one of the film's many intentional loose ends.

I liked "Buckaroo Banzai" a lot, but it disappointed me, too.
Unlike "Indiana Jones", or "Star Trek III", or "Gremlins", the
script gave it a fighting chance to be really special. Instead, it
just turned out different.  Given the way things are in Hollywood
nowadays, I'll settle for different.  But, gee, I really yearn for
special.
                Peter Reiher
                reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                {...ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Aug 1984 06:11:23-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)

> From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> ...and Gerrold is one of the big ST mavens...

I should guess that Mr Gerrold might take strong exception to being
called a maven.  A maven is the female counterpart of a master, ie a
woman possessing surpassing skill.  In fiction, the term is usually
applied to those indulging in witchcraft, as in this bit:

"...Falangor was called the mightiest of warlocks; he was master of
the darkest of the black arts, and the people walked in fear of his
wrath.  And Alyssa his betrothed had learnt well of him, for she was
his equal, a maven of terrifying power..."

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
       decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #157
Date: 14 Aug 84 1750-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #157
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Aug 84 1750-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #157
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:

        Books - Clarke & Joe Haldeman & Heinlein & Pynchon &
                Matter Transmission (2 msgs),
        Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Dune,
        Miscellaneous - The Star Trek Univers & Mavens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1984 09:16:08-EDT
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: 2010

Having just read 2010 by Clarke, is he accurate when he describes
the method of sling-shotting around Jupiter?  He says you decelerate
to lose velocity, to fall toward the planet.  This sounds backwards
to me.  I would think you would need to increase the magnitude of
your velocity, angling in the direction of the planet, to produce
the hyperbolic orbit needed.  Am I off the wall?

                                      Jim Rachiele

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 Aug 84 04:16:48-PDT
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet>
Subject: Book Review: Worlds Apart by Joe Haldeman

Worlds Apart --- Joe Haldeman
  Ace Paperback: September 1984  $2.95  Isbn: 0-441-91072-6
  (My how time flies, I thought it was still August.)

Micro-Review: Ho-hum

Mini-review: Not bad, but not great.  Interesting Ideas not fully
developed.

Review:

  This book, a sequil to WORLDS, is a post world war 4 (or 3) novel
centered on the surviving L5 type space station.  Action takes
place, but it happens to the main character more than being caused
by the main character.  It contains two separate plot lines that get
further apart as the book continues.  I do like Joe Haldeman's
writing style, but this book reads like the middle book of a
trilogy: much of the action taking place before the book starts and
there is no solid ending.  The original idea in this novel... a
plague that kill everyone over about 20... is used more as a
backdrop than anything else.
  This review probably makes the book sound worse that it is, but
this certainly isn't Joe Haldemans best work.

P.s. Which story is Rhysling from?  I recognize all the other
dedications.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 84 2:20:10-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: New Heinlein Novel- Job: A Comedy of Justice

JOB: A Comedy of Justice    by Robert A. Heinlein
$16.95  Del Rey/Ballantine

Well, R.A.H. fans, welcome to a GOOD alternate world story.  I won't
reveal many details (the outragousness of them are much of the fun),
but I'll tell you about as much as the blurb does:

   Alexander Hergensheimer is a fundamentalist minister and
administrator for a "religious" group so repressive it makes Jerry
Falwell look like "mister tolerance".  This is the sympathetic
character.  Got that?

   The story follows the travels of A.H. through a number of
alternate universes, as our hero gradually becomes a more decent
fellow.  Heinlein takes this opportunity to sketch out a number of
small variations on the "alternate America" theme.  Then he proceeds
to romp all over various forms of christian mythology.  Some pretty
amazing things are depicted, in the very believable Heinlein style.

  This book is fun, loving, well written, and blasphemous.  If you
were created in the image of a humorless God, this book is not for
you.  If you are a humorless secular humanist, you may find the
constant reminders of christianity politically unacceptable.  If you
want humor and a good story, buy the book!

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 01:03:35-PDT
From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Suford Lewis)
Subject: Thomas Pynchon

I tried to start V. and The Journal of Albion Moonlight and found
both to be full of pretentious, self-indulgent writing about silly,
uninteresting characters.  They might have claimed to be looking for
"MEANING" but they were'nt looking very hard and they didn't really
seem to want to find any.

However, since I couldn't finish either, and both were relatively
early works, perhaps someone can tell me why Pynchon is worth
reading?

                                   - Suford

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 84 16:06:43 EDT
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Matter Transmission

Dave Dyer-Bennet suggests that if matter transmitters can't transmit
living beings, people might conclude erroneously that they have
souls.  As I recall, one of the papers in Computers and Thought
[Feigenbaum and Feldman, eds] (I think the paper is by Minsky)
suggested that if we ever succeed in producing self-aware computers,
they will believe that they have souls.  Although the article
doesn't say so, there is at least the implication that people's
belief in the soul may be a similar illusion.  The problem is that
it is impossible to watch ourselves thinking, so our own mental
processes will always remain somewhat of a mystery, and seem to be
apart from the physical world around us.  That certainly sounds like
an interesting starting-point for an SF story or two.

Actually, both that paper and Dyer-Bennet's message to SF-LOVERS
takes for granted a definition of soul that is no longer as
widespread as it used to be.  The classic treatment of this issue in
Christian theology is Agape and Eros, by Nygren.  Nygren (followed
by many others) believes that the traditional way of looking at the
soul owes more to the neo-Platonists than to the Judeo-Christian
tradition.  The neo-Platonists believed that the material universe
is naturally evil. It was not even created by the Supreme Being
directly.  Human evil happens because our immortal souls have become
trapped in material bodies.  However when we die, our souls are
freed and return to the realm of light.  The Jewish view was quite
different.  It is best summarized by saying that Man does not *have*
a soul, he *is* a soul. It is not a separate part of him, having a
different nature.  Nor is there a part of man that is immortal.
Christian theology has to a large extent returned to this view.
(Christians do not necessarily believe in the immortality of the
soul.  The creeds talk about "the resurrection of the body", which
is quite a different thing.)  I like to consider the soul as a
process, with our body as the hardware on which it is running.  This
raises another interesting issue that I would like to see SF
explore.  If we succeed in creating an intelligent computer, at what
point does it become murder to turn it off?  Or is it enough if we
store its current state on tape?  (Perhaps turning it off in that
case is not murder but kidnapping.)  The issues are clearly
analogous to those raised by the ability to store recordings of
people.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 1984 13:43:17 EDT
From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: More on Matter Transmission

The following are excerpted from The Science Fiction Encyclopedia,
Peter Nicholls, ed. (1979):

MATTER TRANSMISSION: The matter transmitter is one of several sf
devices which though purporting to have a technological explanation,
have the effect of being a pseudo-scientific analogue of various psi
powers, in this instance teleportation.  Both processes involve the
instantaneous (or nearly so) transfer of a person or object from one
place to another without apparent traverse of the intervening space.
. . . [T]eleportation is defined as such transportation achieved by
mental power, although the term is frequently used in contexts where
the actual process is matter transmission, the mechanical
accomplishment of such a journey.  This confusion of terminology is
evident in Larry Niven's article "The Theory and Practice of
Teleportation" (1969), which is primarily concerned with matter
transmission, and is otherwise a useful introduction to the various
problems and paradoxes raised by this branch of imaginary science.
     The earliest use of the matter transmitter in sf is probably
the horrific "The Man Without a Body" (1877) by Edward Page
Mitchell. . . .Matter transmission is used for interplanetary travel
in To Venus in Five Seconds by Fred T. Jane.  Early Pulp examples
are "The Secret of Electrical Transmission" (1922) by Clement
Fezandia, "The Moon Menace" (1927) by Edmond Hamilton, and "Cosmic
Express" (1930) by Jack Williamson.
     As the last example suggests, m.t. is primarily used in sf
simply as a convenient transportation device, esp. for overcoming
the problems of travelling interstellar distances. . . . Sometimes
this involves the physical disintegration of the original body -- as
in The Enemy Stars (1959) by Poul Anderson ... -- but more often
this aspect is glossed over.  In Joe Haldeman's Mindbridge (1976),
the transmitter requires no receiver but its use is circumscribed by
a "slingshot" effect. . . Matter transmitters are an aid to
colonization of an alien world in Joseph L. Green's The Loafers of
Refuge (1965), and are essential to the alien intrigues of Lloyd
Biggle's All the Colors of Darkness (1963); these are typical
cosmetic uses of the device.  In Clifford D. Simak's Way Station
(1963), there is a galaxy-wide network of matter transmitters of
restricted range, like a railway system. . . . One interesting
artifact developed from this notion is the 'House' in Today We
Choose Faces (1973) by Roger Zelazny: a single, huge building whose
various wings are actually on different worlds, joined together by
matter transmitters.
     Larry Niven has himself written a number of stories based on
the assumption of a m.t. which will revolutionize transport on Earth
but will not work over interplanetary distances, . . . [including]
"Flash Crowd" (1973), . . . "The Alibi Machine" (1973), "All The
Bridges Rusting" (1973), "A Kind of Murder" (1974), and "The Last
Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club" (1974).  In the opening
chapter of Ringworld (1970), Niven describes how the existence of
matter transmitters irons out differences between cities (as the
existence of airports already does, to a limited extent). . . . An
absurd but logical method of space travel using short-range matter
transmission suggested in Niven's article is used humorously in Bob
Shaw's Who Goes Here? (1977): a spaceship with a matter transmitter
at the rear and a receiver at the front repeatedly transmits itself
forward through itself.  Other authors to have examined seriously the
implications of matter transmission include John Brunner in Web of
Everywhere (1974) and Harry Harrison in One Step from Earth (coll.
of linked stories 1970).
     The recording of a signal which is then decoded by a receiver
does not necessarily, in theory, involve the dissolution of the body
being recorded.  A matter transmitter can therefore be a matter
duplicator.  (There are many sf stories about matter duplicators
which are not matter transmitters but presumably might be if a
transmitted signal were substituted for the circuitry linking their
two halves.)  This idea provides the mechanism in Algis Budrys'
Rogue Moon (1960), whereby the protagonist, having travelled by
matter transmitter to the Moon, is able repeatedly to explore and be
killed by a mysterious alien structure, while his other body on
Earth, to which he is telepathically linked, learns from his
successive deaths.  [Note that Chalker's 'Four Lords of the Diamond'
series derives from this mechanism, though w/o matter transmission.]
An elegant variant is Thomas M. Disch's Echo Round His Bones (1969),
in which a matter transmitter leaves behind an "echo" of anything
which passes through it, undetectable and intangible in the "real
world" but actual enough to other echoes.  These stories address,
indirectly, a problem which most m.t. tales gloss over: identity.

     M.t.'s are familiar devices through their use in films and TV
series.  "The Fly" and its sequels examine, in fairly simplistic
terms, the possibility of the signal's becoming scrambled, with
horrifying consequences. . . . In "Star Trek", m.t. (without a
receiver being necessary) is used to transfer the crew of the
Enterprise from orbit to a planetary surface and back, thus enabling
the show to carry on without long pauses in the action.  The
creators of the 1978 British TV series "Blake's Seven" evidently
thought this idea so firmly established with the audience that they
adopted it without feeling any explanation was needed.

[Based on the above approach, Bester's The Stars My Destination
would not involve m.t., but rather psi powers; same for Blish's Jack
of Eagles and similar novels.]

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 84 17:24:47-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdchema!djo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI

I saw Buckaroo Banzai last night and I was disappointed.  What
little I had heard about it intrigued me but often I felt rather
bored.  The dialogue at times seemed stiff, partially I think
because they were trying to make the movie resemble a comic book but
many times it just plain fell flat.  The acting was not superlative
with the exception of John Lithgow.  He made a Dr. Lizardo come
alive brilliantly.  I loved the scenes of the 8th dimension and
wished there were more of them.  If these folks make another movie,
as advertised at the end of this one, I will certainly give it a
try.  I think there is a lot of entertainment potential and they may
get improve with the second film.  If you like Sci Fi spoofs be sure
to check it out.  There are many funny scenes despite my own
personal disappointment with it.

P.S.  I also wish there would have been more shown about
      Buckaroo's martial arts skill.

Denise

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1984 11:46:40 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Dune

Could someone who has a copy of the hack cast for Dune, please send
it to me?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 9-Aug-84 14:34:07-EDT
From: decvax!ncoast!bsa@Berkeley  (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #153

How about John Ford's THE FINAL REFLECTION?  It can't really
conflict with the ST universe because it revolves about a
not-too-clearly-defined area of Trek: the Klingon Empire.  In fact,
Vonda McIntyre uses some things from it in the novelization of ST
III ("Could it be that you believe the slanderous cant put about,
that Kumburanya are in the ascendancy over Rumaiym?").  And it DOES
clear up quite a bit about those funny-looking guys that grew ridges
when we weren't looking....

Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET
 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416

"The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis tae stop up
the drain."

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 84 02:18:41 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Maven

Websters' defines "maven" (also "mavin" or "mayvin") as "n [Yiddish
"meyvn", fr LHeb "mebhin"]: one who is experienced or knowlegeable:
EXPERT"

No mention is made of sex.  In common usage in my experience,
"maven" is used interchangeably with "expert".  The word "master"
derives from the Latin "magister" through the French, not Hebrew.
The feminine form of "master" is "mistress".

JoSH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 14:44:15 EDT
From: Bob Clements <clements@bbn-cd.arpa>
Subject: "Maven"
Cc: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.arpa

Dick Binder says "A maven is the female counterpart of a master
...".  I say "Foo". And my Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
agrees. It says:
        Maven or mavin n [Yiddish meyvn, ... fr Heb l'havin to
        understand](1952): one who is experienced or
        knowledgable

Nothing about "female".
/Rcc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #158
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Aug 84 1411-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #158
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Aug 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:

Books - Campbell & Pynchon & Varley & Matter Transmission (6 msgs),
Films - Metropolis & Buckaroo Banzai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 84 17:57 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Hallgren.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #149

In reply to Bob Clements "Old Book Request", the scene he mentioned
is in "The Incredible Planet" by John Campbell, Jr.  One of my high
school favorites, and one of the original space operas.  I
interpreted the scene to mean that the inhabitants of the planets
of that space didn't want any 'poaching' on their territory by
relatively primative beings.  Campbell never got around to taking
Aarn & company back to that space, although he might have.

This is the second of the Aarn Munro books written in the mid or
early 30s', and my favorite space opera.  The first book is "The
Mightiest Machine" which has appeared as an ACE paperback.  To the
best of my knowledge TIP has never been put into paperback release.
If there's anyone from a publishing house reading this distribution
list, get this old wonder in print!

Actually it is three stories in one volume 1) the Incredible Planet,
in which our heroes return to our space and encounter a VERY old
planet; 2) the Interstellar Search in which they try to find Earth
and finally succeed with help; and 3) the Infinite Atom, where they
are pressed into Earth's defense by some plausible enemies.  If you
like the Arcot-Wade-Morey books, (The Black Star Passes, Islands of
Space, Invaders From The Infinite), or the E. E. Smith series this
is as good, and the last major book before Campbell really took up
the editing helm of Astounding/Analog.


Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: Wed Aug 15 20:20:55 1984
From: mclure@sri-prism
Subject: Pynchon; why read him?

Pynchon is for the Pynchon groupies, no one else.

I too tried to read some of his books and found them tiresome.  He
doesn't hold a candle to V.  Nabokov or (when they are writing at
full strength) H.  Ellison & R.  Silverberg.  There are some
mainstream authors too that he has trouble matching.  I think
certain authors tend to get overrated by the "college crowd" and
then get "pushed" onto everyone else as "good" literature, when in
fact they produce nothing more than the usual mundane stuff.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 20:10:46 EDT
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBNCCI.ARPA>
Subject: Models for illustrations of Cirocco in TITAN

    Someone in a recent issue of SF-LOVERS commented that the
illustrations of Cirocco in Varley's TITAN looked a lot like Cher,
and wondered whether the author or artist had intended this.  I
wrote to Freff, the artist, asking him about this.  His response
was, "Interesting notion, Cher...but nothing that Varley ever said
to me or that I ever thought."  He goes on to say that Cirocco as
drawn was modeled on two people, one whom he was visiting while
reading the manuscript, "and aside from hair and skin color her
features were an exact match for Varley's description."  The other,
the model for the body, was "the only six foot tall, slinky,
essentially flat-chested ex-ballet dancer" he knew.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 21:06:12-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda.

     "The exact duplication of every molecule will
      create a new human being."

Or something like that. I've never agreed with this in connection
with matter transportation. (Something like, is the Dr. McCoy on the
planet the same Dr. McCoy who left the ship?)

Matter and energy are, after all, completely equivalent. ("Yeah" for
Albert Baby!) So, if McCoy's matter is converted to energy, radiated
elsewhere, and reconvert to matter...it's the same McCoy - assuming
the matter matrix is recreated exactly.

Right? (please say yes, or I'll be crushed...)

              -- Rob
                  MACC

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 20:58:26-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission

Commenting (again) on the concept of putting a ham sandwich in one
end of a transporter and pulling out gold bullion:

The first thing that comes to mind is that it would be far "easier"
to use a matter transporter for moving matter from point A to point
B then it would be to use it for manipulating matter.
Transportation would require a "simple" (hehe) scan of the subatomic
structure of the thing being transported, and then based on this
information, reconstruct the object from the energy wavefront. In
order to create a "new" object from the "old" would require that you
already had a subatomic "blueprint" to use. Also, matter can neither
be created nor destroyed. Therefore, a ham sandwich would make a
very small peice of gold bullion since it's density and atomic
weight are less.

Ah, but I'm full of spurious comments tonite...

                      --- Rob DeMillo
                          MACC

         "...I know engineers, they LOVE to change things!"

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 20:47:30-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda.

Karl ---
  In the question of clones and immortality, I'd have to agree with
Perlman. Selfness is not dependent on behavior.  Because you have
another entity with the same genetic pattern as yourself does not
imply that this new entity is the same as yourself. Even if you
could core dump what we embody with the term "mind" into the clone
he/she/it would still not be you. The two of you would have the same
"life experiences" up to and including the core dump, but you would
no longer be sharing the same perspectives, etc...
   Philosphers and scientists have long debated what it is that
actually comprises the "soul" of a being...chances are it doesn't
depend on the hardware or the software so much as the firmware. The
combination of the physical brain and the energy that the brain
generates...
   Ah well, it was just an observation...I'll stop myself
before I begin to ramble...

                  --- Rob DeMillo
                      MACC

"...I don't know what this is, but it's pointing in your
direction..."

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 01:08:06-PDT
From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Suford Lewis)
Subject: Matter Transmission

It seems to me that transmission of one's SELF becomes simplified if
one has a soul.  The physical part gets destroyed in one place and
created in another.  The "soul", being immaterial, is not bound by
any laws to "be" anywhere in particular and simply IS in the new
place after the transmiaaion.

Mind you, I say this who once used to worry if I was the same "me"
when I woke up in the morning as I had been when I went to sleep.  I
knew I had the same memories, but that didn't mean I was the SAME.
It is the identical problem as with matter transmission, depending
on what you think "consciousness" means, depending on what you think
continuity of existence consists of.  By the way, I never could
decide whether I was the same "me" or whether I died every night
when I went to sleep and a "new" me with the identical memories
lived through each day.  It is undecideable, so I decided to stop
worrying about it.  I gradually did.  I think I was 8 when this
problem occurred to me.  It took me a couple of years to stop
worrying about it.

Varley has an interesting description of recording/duplication of
people in Ophiuchi Hotline.  People have themselves (whatever that
is) recorded every so often.  When they die (presumably by accident)
they get "restarted" from a clone fed their most recent copy.  In
the story, the bad guys need more than one copy of our protagonist,
so they make more.  Each "reawakened" person tries to figure out
what happened to their previous version so they canavoid similar
problems.  At the denoument, all the parts achieve a psychic union
and have a perception of themself as a fourdimensional treelike
structure.

Nice idea.  I'ld like to believe it.  Is there a level of complexity
that leads to the "program" continuing to exist after the machine
breaks down totally?  (I don't fancy the idea of God with piles and
piles of old listings of every program He ever wrote... and what
good would that be to me anyway?  The listings aren't alive, the
programs have to be running - consciousness as I know it requires
the passage of time, the possibility of change, the flow of
thought.)

Well, it's all still undecideable, so we can amuse ourselves
speculating to our hearts' content...

                               - SUford

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 84 17:46:38-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!nsc!idi!kiessig @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission

There are other implications of matter transmitters:

        1. The 'original' matter must somehow be 'destroyed'.

        2. Because of the large amount of energy present in matter
           (e=mc^2), it seems likely that matter transmitters do NOT
           in fact imply matter duplication, except perhaps at
           extremely high cost.  In the normal case, it seems more
           likely that the energy obtained by 'disintegrating' the
           original matter would have to be used to recreate the
           object at its new location.  I suppose it might be
           possible to use some other matter as an energy source,
           but only if the encoding and disintegration processes
           were seperable, which doesn't seem obvious to me.

        3. Because of this, a more likely technology would not
           involve 'storage' of a 'pattern', but rather
           disintegration combined with simultaneous recreation at
           the receiving end.  It seems unlikely that sufficient
           energy could be stored remotely to create any substantial
           amount of matter - the required energy would more likely
           be transmitted, along with pattern information.

        4. I do think that a pre-cursor of a matter transmitter
           would have to involve controlled (i.e. non-radioactive)
           disintegration of matter - into some form of energy
           capable of holding information.  I'm not sure which
           energy form is capable of passing the required amount
           of energy most efficiently.  Lasers?  Microwaves?

        5. Another pre-cursor would have to be the creation of
           matter from energy.  Has any theoretical work yet been
           done on that?  The obvious problem is how to 'tell' the
           energy to condense into some particular molecular form,
           including specific bonding information.  Sounds like a
           real messy problem.

        6. Receiving stations would likely be accompanied by large
           power plants, because of energy transmission losses that
           would have to be made up if the original matter were to
           be exactly recreated.

Rick Kiessig
{decvax, ucbvax}!sun!idi!kiessig
{akgua, allegra, amd, burl, cbosgd, decwrl, dual, ihnp4}
!idi!kiessig
Phone: 408-996-2399

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 05:35:35-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission/duplication

> From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
>      How about pursuing the idea that matter
> transmission/duplication is possible, but very energy intensive.
> An obvious figure is the energy content of the mass sent/copied,
> i.e.  E=mc^2.  The US electrical generating capacity is something
> like 6 grams/second.  What cargo/product would justify that?  This
> works out to roughly $14,000 a gram.  A five carat (one gram)
> diamond just about is worth that much.  Not much else is.  Certain
> rare postage stamps, a few radioactive isotopes.
>      Anyone have ideas on the consequences of this?

The obvious conclusion that I'd draw from the theory that matter
trnsmission/duplication is energy intensive is that the dissolution
of the transmitted object at the transmitting end of the link would
provide most, but clearly not ALL, of the energy required for
transmission.  Now this energy would obviously not be available at
the receiving end, but a reasonable facsimile thereof would be, from
the last object that was sent from there.  If we limit the masses
transmitted to the same amount, ie one person plus some amount of
ballast to make all the transactions workout roughly the same, then
energy becomes a non-problem.  Sure, there is a lot of it to cope
with, released in very short order, but any society that has a
matter transmitter will have solved the problems of handling huge
amounts of energy.  Perhaps storing it as some form of proto-matter,
eg all loose quarks, to be drawn from as needed...

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)
UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
       decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed 15 Aug 84 00:22:58-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA>
Subject: METROPOLIS

        There is a new release of Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS out. This
is good news and bad news.

        The good news is that many segments which were cut out of
the original English-titled version have been restored, or at least
attempts made to restore plot continuity thru the use of stills from
lost segments and extra titling. I would estimate that about 10-15
minutes have been added to the film, with a considerable increase in
comprehensibility.

        The bad news is the sound track: Giorgio Moroder probably
thought he could bring in a whole new audience with heavy metal
music and songs by himself and Pete Bellotte, as performed by Cycle
5, Pat Benatar, Billy Squier, Jon Anderson, Adam Ant, Bonnie Tyler,
Freddie Mercury, and Loverboy. I must admit the New York audience
cheered at the end, but I felt that I had seen a great masterpiece
ruined. If it were not for the promise of the restored sequences,
both I and my companion would have walked out. It made both of us
very angry.

        Classic silent films, at least to me, are somewhat
dreamlike; there is little or no color (this version successfully
uses tinting to evoke mood, and occasionally two colors in a scene),
and the action seems sometimes enigmatic. In METROPOLIS, the actors
make heavy use of facial expression and body english (german?) to
get their intentions and feelings across; in this version, the
actors' intents and moods are telegraphed far in advance by the
music and (very saccharine) songs, so the actors seem to be hamming
it up, and many times caused audience laughter during the most
intense scenes.

        See this version if you are an SF film completest;
otherwise, try to see an older version, or better yet, wait till the
video tape comes out and watch that.... with the sound off.

                                                Peter Trei

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 84 2:31:21-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: re: BUCKAROO BANZAI

Well, the Nova *Mob* shows up in a couple of William Burroughs'
books. I think that Earl MacRauch's use of the Nova Police and
Yoyodyne are tips of the hat to both Burroughs and Pynchon. I
wouldn't be surprised if there are some other hidden references in
there, too.

 jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #159
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Aug 84 1514-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #159
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Aug 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:

  Books - Dick & Heinlein & Piper & Matter Transmitters (3 msgs),
  Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Dreamscape & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 12:48:45 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission (and Dick's THE UNTELEPORTED MAN)

         From Garnaat.henr@Xerox.ARPA:

        While on the subject of the ending [of THE UNTELEPORTED
        MAN], I would like to pose a question to anyone familiar
        with Dick's work.  The book I have is a re-release (since
        his death, many of his novels have been re-released) and
        claims to have the "original, uncensored" ending which was
        supposedly left out of the original release for "commercial"
        reasons.  My disapointment with the ending got me wondering
        about the original book.  How does the ending differ? Or,
        better yet, any ideas on where I could find a copy of the
        original release?

        Mitch

Coincidentally, the August LOCUS (#283) has a review of yet another
version of THE UNTELEPORTED MAN, this one titled LIES, INC. and
published by Gollancz in the UK.  Here is what Dan Chow has to say
(yes, copied without permission, etc.):

	(deleted)

Sounds like Gollancz did it right.  I wonder if this edition will
ever appear in paperback on this side of the pond?

Coincidentally again, the same issue of LOCUS has a letter from
Tessa B. Dick complaining about the editorial practices of Berkley
in putting together their edition of THE UNTELEPORTED MAN...

Finally got around to A MAZE OF DEATH, starting soon on DR.
FUTURITY,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 84 09:54:51 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #157

Unless my knowledge is very mistaken Rhysling shows up in at least
two stories by RAH. To wit, "The Green Hills of Earth" and " Time
Enough for Love".  The character is a totally optically impaired (
not blind, just without optical ability) space tramp who was at one
time an engineer on a space liner.  At the time we meet him he was
living by singing in bars and cafes ( as well as an occasional
bordello) and being a philosopher.

hope this helps ,
alex
<latzko@ru-blue.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Aug 84 07:42 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman%SWW-WHITE@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Fuzzy Sequels

My reaction to Fuzzies And Other People was similar to that of Mr.
Duntemann, particularly having read the two recent Fuzzy books by
other authors: Fuzzy Bones by William Tuning and Golden Dream by
<author forgotten>.  Fuzzy Bones managed to succeed exactly where
Piper failed.  Tuning expanded the story in one major way
(explaining the Fuzzies' need for titanium on a titanium-poor world)
and moved characters along in other ways.  To me, the book was a
modest success, both as a pastiche of Piper's childlike writing
style and as an explainer of some of the peculiarities of Piper's
scenario.  Now if only Piper had done so well...

Of course, Piper was not one to worry too much about inconsistencies
or biological improbabilities.  In the original story Gunpowder God,
he had humans mating (both naturally and successfully) with members
of an alien humanoid (human-looking but NOT human) race.  I believe
it was John Campbell who caught him on this and suggested that he
turn the story into a Paratime tale (which became Lord Kalvan of
Otherwhen).
                                                Hank Shiffman
                                                Symbolics, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1984 10:58-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <taw@mordor.ARPA>
Subject: Matter transmitters with no soul

        Imagine, a matter transfer takes place, the body is
        transmitted, the soul remains stranded outside the
        evaporated original host body, and a new, soulless body is
        assembled at the other end of the transmitter.  The soul
        makes it's merry way off to the next world, but what happens
        to the body?  If we follow the Christian religion, it is
        quite possible for a body to survive without a soul --
        animals do it all the time.  So do we, in one fell swoop,
        wipe out the souls of every person on earth?

We may not wipe them out, they may just hang around.  Talk about a
plot for Ghostbusters II!!!

                                        -- Tom

"I ain't 'fraid of no bugs...."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 84 09:18 PDT
From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Matter Transmitters and Duplicators

Matter transmitters do not necessarily have to be matter duplicators
or matter transmutters.  The common every day examples of
information transmission, such as radio and television broadcasts,
Xerox machines, stereo recordings, computer storage, etc., have the
property that the copying is not a destructive process.  That is to
say, you can record music and make a copy without destroying the
original.  The same may not be true for a matter transmitter.  It
may be necessary to destroy the object to record its data.  As far
as the matter transmuting goes, does a Xerox machine have to
transmute air into ink?

Simply accumulating the data would be a monumental task.  It might
not be necessary to make an EXACT, identical copy of something to
retain its essential charateristics.  I define essential
characteristics to include, form, total mass, viablity of living
creatures, memory and personality of sentient creatures.  It is very
unlikely that a single electron having its spin flipped will effect
the overall personality of a duplicated person (Who knows?  Would
that make a person flip out?  (sorry)) Now, to just get an idea of
how much information we are talking about let us ignore things like
electron spins, excited electronic and nuclear states, etc. and try
just to duplicate the correct atoms in a human.  I am going to make
a few unrealistic assumptions to do a top of the head calculation
(an order of magnitude in the order of magnitude will be fine (think
about that for a moment)).

An average person masses around 65 kilograms, round off to 1e5 g.  A
human is mostly composed of hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen.
Let us assume that they are in roughly equal amounts by number (they
aren't, but it should be close enough).  They have an average atomic
weight of around 10 g/mole.  Avogadro's number (6.02e23 atoms/mole)
can be rounded to 1e24 atoms/mole.  So we have on the order of 1e28
atoms.  For a given person, assume that each atom is one of the four
I have mentioned.  In terms of the binary storage, each position
requires 2 bits for each atom so we have 2e24 bits.  Now recall that
this is a terribly gross underestimate of the total amount of
information stored in the wavefunction of a person.  The true wave
function would also have to include information on the positioning,
velocity, etc. of each subatomic particle.  The true quantum state
must include interactions between all of the particles, so it
probably scales as the factorial of the number of the particles.  So
in some sense my order of magnitude is probably too small by many,
many of orders of magnitude.  As, just a guess, it doesn't seem too
unreasonable to say a human might require more than 1e100 bits of
total storage.  I just picked that to defy anyone trying to envision
a computer storage that could store 2e24 bits.  2e24 bits is almost
conceivable, 1e100 is not.

Now it is quite conceivable that a device that attempted to
duplicate the exact quantum state of human would not be able to
store all of the information that it is transmitting to a receiving
station.  A good example of this type of information device is a
television camera.  It is quite believeable that a handheld video
camera could take more data than it could store.  I know, you could
always buy a video tape recorder, but conceptually, it is ridiculous
to assume that any device be able to store as much information as it
can aquire.  In addition, since it appears very unlikely that we
could ever make enough computer storage to store an object, it seems
even more unlikely that we would ever be able to process the data.
(Have you ever tried to take a FFT of a big array?  It scales as
n*log(n).  1e102 is a mighty big number.  (Well just take 1e102
processors in parallel and....))

Then there is the problem of the data transmission.  It is going to
take a while.  Assume that a matter transmitter is built which
solves the storage problem.  How would you like to hop into it,
press the button ("Press the button, Max!"), and arrive just in time
to watch the universe fold up in the Big Crunch?  Sounds like a neat
one way time machine.

This entire diatribe has also ignored one minor detail; the
Heisenberg uncertainty principle.  I addessed the data storage
problem.  This point is academic since we can't accumulate the data
in the first place.

                From the fallible, flailing fingers of

                Steve "I just couldn't resist any longer" Trainoff
                Xerox Special Information Systems
                101 N. Halstead, Pasadena CA. 91106

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1984 16:03:19 EDT ( WEDNESDAY )
From: Stephen R. Balzac <BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Matter Transmission

Another story dealing with Matter Transmission is Players of Null-A
and World of Null-A by Van Vogt.  His matter transmitters do not
create duplicates, or disassemble the subject, but rather work on
the principle of similarity: if you make the starting point A
similiar enough to the destination point B, then an object at A will
move to B, the amount of time involved depending on how close the
similarity is.  While the principle is not the most accurate, it
does enable a society to exist without having any of the cultural
problems involved in matter transmission.

A comment from ST: In the novelization of ST III, there is a line to
the effect that only groups such as StarFleet can make use of a
transporter.  It's far too expensive for commercial use.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 84 14:52:30-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI

        First read the book.  Then see the movie.  Don't buy the
    Marvel adaptation, the artwork is lousy.  The book is serious
    and funny.  The movie isn't quite so serious or funny as the
    book.  Buckaroo Banzai is (I hope) going to be the next James
    Bond, with a string of movies as long as your arm.  The
    development of the supporting characters still needs a bit of
    work, though.
        Casting gets a 12 (out of a possible 12) in my book.  Peter
    Weller pulls off the very difficult task of being Buckaroo
    Banzai.  John Lithgow, who I am convinced could play any role in
    the world, does just fine as Emilio Lizardo/John Whorfin.  The
    guy from TAXI and Star Trek III, whose name escapes me, plays an
    alien yet again, this time the avaricious John Bigboote'.  (All
    the aliens are named John in this movie, but some of the last
    names bare mentioning:
        John Ya Ya
        John Repeat Dance
        John Small Berries
        John O'Connor
        John Ready to Fly

        and others.  This movie could have been better, but not
    much.  Expect to see Buckaroo Banzai posters, dolls, comics,
    saturday morning kid shows, basketballs, neckties, stained glass
    windows, and OSCILLATION OVERTHRUSTERS in your toystores soon.
        And remember that, no matter where you go... there you are.

                                                        -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Aug 84 10:49:14 EDT
From: Dave Mankins <dm@BBN-CLXX.ARPA>
Subject: Dreamscape

Saw ``Dreamscape'' last night.  A wonderful science-fiction movie
speculating on what would happen if a psychic could enter into a
person's dreams (as a participant).  Stars Dennis Quaid (one of the
astronauts in ``The Right Stuff''), Max von Sydow, and Kate Capshaw
(gosh, she really can act, not just scream helplessly, what a
pleasant surprise).

The dream sequences are especially good, with just the right amount
of eerie-dreaminess to them.  The characters are good and
believable, and the events of the movie, given the premise of
"dream-linking", are good.  In fact, having seen the movie, I can
recall very few flaws, and thinking about the movie afterward, I
haven't thought, "Why did they have to do that?  Why didn't they
just..."

And the best part: NO CUTE FURRY CREATURES WITH BIG EYES.  The
characters in this movie earn your adulation (or distaste) instead
of coming with handy labels of "good guy" or "bad guy".  There is a
cute kid, but he has a real problem, and he's only around to
establish the character that Dennis Quaid plays.

Go see it.  Show those Hollywood executives that a real SF movie can
do well.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following message.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 84 12:12:04-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!security!wdr @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Kirk's future with Starfleet

>From:   Paul Schauble <Schauble@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA

>  Kirk's future with Starfleet isn't necessarily as bleak as some
>people suggest. Remember that in any Navy that ever has existed
>(and presumably, ever will exist) rank and promotion at the command
>level depends in large part on political influence.

>     In this case, it is quite likely that Kirk will have the
>Vulcans in his corner, as welll as some of the other races he and
>his crew helped at various times. Starfleet may not like it, but it
>is quite possible they will find the most expedient thing to do is
>to gloss over the whole incident. After all, Kirk's action kept a
>potentially devastating weapon out of the hands of an implacable
>enemyy [sic] of the Federation.

D*** straight!  The Vulcan Ambassador, no less, personally
benefitted.  If the theft was never leaked to the press, their
should be no problem.  On the other hand, if the press is out for
blood, Kirk & Sarek may be jointly sacrificed.  But "The Adventure
Continues".  It wouldn't be the first time Kirk has been [almost?]
court-martialed.  But how can ILM get any business on a Politics &
Legal movie?

  William Ricker
  wdr@mitre-bedford.ARPA                                (MIL)
  wdr@security.UUCP                                     (UUCP)
  decvax!genrad!security!wdr                            (UUCP)
 {allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!security!wdr (UUCP)

Opinions are my own and not necessarily anyone elses.  Likewise the
"facts".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #160
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 84 1130-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #160
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 160

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony & Dickson & Heinlein & SF Porn &
                  Sequels & Matter Transmission (4 msgs),
          Films - Metropolis & The Last Starfighter & 
                  Star Trek (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 19:02:19-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: FINALLY! -- and -- *Bearing an Hourglass*

Just finished *Bearing an Hourglass*, by Piers Anthony.

Nano-Review: Good, but not quite as good as *On a Pale Horse*.

Micro-Review:

Typical Anthony style.  Main character is Norton, a guy who likes
wilderness and likes to ``see the other side of the mountain, even
if it's artificial''.  The book contains the (now standard) Author's
Note (see if you can find the(?) pun in(?) it - I thought it was a
typo at first) which explains that while writing this book about
Time, Anthony was pressed for time himself.  I'm afraid it shows a
bit.  But it is still a good book.  I'm not sure what else I can say
here without creating a spoiler.  I'd have to reread it first.
Anyway, if you like Anthony's fantasy, you'll like *Hourglass*.

(By the way, don't take the ``now standard'' the wrong way: I *like*
the Notes.)

(Argh, I really want to say something but I'm afraid it would
constitute a spoiler. )

                      *** SPOILER WARNING ***

I wish he had somehow incorporated a ``waste of time'' conflict into
the book.  The statement he makes in the last paragraph or two of
the Author's Note ought to be made somewhere in the novel.  Perhaps
the third ``inner fantasy'' (the one with both Bat Dursten and the
Alicorn and the others) constituted one such statement to some
extent, but if so, I don't think it was quite strong enough.  Also,
*Horse* had some really nice internal and external struggles;
*Hourglass* seemed to lack the internal ones.  Oh well, maybe I
missed something this time through.

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 84 7:37:09-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!genrad!security!bs @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Dickson's 'Final Encyclopedia'

        I recently saw a Doer's White Label ad touting Dickson's
        latest work 'The Final Encyclopedia'. So where is it? Does
        anyone know when it will appear? Dickson has published
        excerpts from it [as long as 2 years ago!]

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 16 Aug 1984 16:09:39-PDT
From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS 'who ius

<Which story is Rhysling from?...>

Do you mean you never heard of Rhysling, the Blind Singer of the
Spaceways?  A man known on more worlds than Michael Jackson?

If you haven't heard of him, read the short story "The Green Hills
of Earth" by Robert Heinlein. (It must be in print in some Heinlein
collection.)

It is somewhat dated, but still one of my favorite SF stories, and
the story that might have made me an SF-Lover...

Steve Kovner
(The tone-deaf singer of the Earthways?)

"I pray for one last landing
 On the globe that gave me birth.
Let me rest my eyes on fleecy skies
 And the cool, green hills of Earth."

UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner
ARPA:kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 Aug 84 23:59:33-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA>
Subject: Tides of Lust, et al..

        This is an extract from a much longer review of SF porn I
did some time ago, but the subject had died down by the time I
finished, so I did not post it.

        TIDES OF LUST, by Samuel Delany. This is a non-SF work, and
describes the experiences of a black sea captain and his 'crew'
during a layover in a small Gulf Coast town. Heavily into
homosexuality and violent sex, it sometimes reads like a dream of
racial revenge. The sex in here is not pretty, but the literary
style is miles ahead anything else I will mention, drawing heavily
on the legend of Faust.  ISBN # 0861300165 1.50 pounds

        THE GAS, by Charles Platt. This has a minor SF element: An
explosion at a secret biowarfare research station in the SW of
England causes the release of a gas which causes people to loose
their normal 'civilized' inhibitions, while boosting their levels of
sexual hormones. The gas blankets southern England, and as
civilization collapses around him in a nationwide orgy, one man trys
to escape from the affected zone with his family (until they too
fall to the gas).  While the sex here is highly erotic, the overall
tone of the book is misanthropic in the extreme. The author simply
does not seem to like people, and consistantly tries to show them at
their worst.  (By the way, this is the same author who mounted a
campaign to get BATTLEFIELD EARTH onto the Hugo ballot. THE GAS is
quite specific at one point about denigrating SF fans.)

        THE GAS was originally published in 1970 by the Ophelia
press, a raunchier offshoot of the Olympia press which published
high quality porn. Both TIDES OF LUST and THE GAS were recently
reprinted in trade paperback editions by Savoy Books, a small
English publisher. There was an attempt in England to ban the latter
book. The Savoy edition of THE GAS has an introduction by Philip
Jose Farmer.  ISBN # 0861300238 1.50 pounds

        The address I have for Savoy Books is:
                Savoy Books Ltd.
                279 Deansgate,
                Manchester M3 4EW,
                England

TIDES OF LUST I found at The Science Fiction Shop, and THE GAS at
Forbidden Planet, both in New York City. The SF Shop is particulary
good for obscure or very new books; they have already had JOB by RAH
for a couple of weeks (yes, I've read it).
                                                Peter Trei

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 84 19:02:19-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: FINALLY! -- and -- *Bearing an Hourglass*

Jeff Duntemann put it pretty well, but I'd like to add that (I
think, at least) what he said near the top of the message was more
important than what he said near the end.  It isn't ``sequels'' that
are bad, it's lack of new developments.  A mechanical way of
deciding whether a ``sequel'' is ``interesting'' that works fairly
well is: does it have a different central character?  If so, it
probably has a different conflict and/or resolution.  (It usually
helps if the time frame is different, too.)

Also note that things that are labeled as sequels are not
necessarily so; it seems to be an editorial device to sell books.

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 84 21:41:40-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: More on Matter Transmission

Some interesting thoughts on matter transmission can also be found
in some of Piers Anthony's novels (in particular the Cluster series
and the Tarot trilogy).  In one of the Tarot books Brother Paul has
a rather odd experience during the mattermission . . . or does he?
The transmission is supposed to be instantaneous.  How, then, can he
be cogitating on the experience as it happens?  The world may never
know.  (Oops, sorry, wrong commercial :-) ) (By the way, I happen to
dislike the Tarot books personally; I haven't reread them even once.
But then again I did find them intriguing enough to buy all three.)

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1984 09:38:57-EDT
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc
Subject: Matter transmission

Michael Kurland wrote a very funny short story which examined
several possible problems with m.t. during its early development.
The story is called "Small World", and I have it in a paperback
short story collection called "Two Views of Wonder".  In it, such
problems as one guy going in and two coming out (at different
destinations), a person whose amino acids are all switched right-
handed for left-handed so he can't digest Earth food anymore, and a
wife who sues the company because her husband emerged from the
transporter without a soul, are raised.  Some problems are solved
(like the problem of Arabs who go to San Francisco, eat at a posh
restaurant and then recite the phrase 'Ay Kan-nod Pai'so that they
can spend two weeks of luxury eating prison food).  The man whose
soul got lost in transit is declared a found object, therefore
chattel of the M.T. company.  Other problems are left unsolved.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 84 16:14:03-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: More on Matter Transmission (Nicholls encyclopedia)

A minor error in the Nicholls encyclopedia:

> Larry Niven has himself written a number of stories based on the
> assumption of a m.t. which will revolutionize transport on Earth
> but will not work over interplanetary distances, . . . [including]
> "Flash Crowd" (1973), . . . "The Alibi Machine" (1973), "All The
> Bridges Rusting" (1973), "A Kind of Murder" (1974), and "The Last
> Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club" (1974).

        The stories do involve interplanetary travel, and even
interstellar travel.  Since the m.t. conserves energy and momentum,
you have to be careful about where you go: transmitting from one of
the poles to the equator will leave you with a difference in
velocity of about 1000 mph, not the most pleasant way to arrive.
Similarly, changes in altitude consume or release energy.

        "All The Bridges Rusting" involves the problem of using a
m.t.  based ship to rescue a conventional (interstellar) rocket that
is traveling at 1/7 the speed of light: getting there is easy, but
what do you do about the tremendous difference in velocity?
Naturally, an ingenous solution is found.

Jim Janney
{{ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax, {purdue,lbl-csam,ihnp4!cmcl2}!lanl-a}!
   unm-cvax!janney

        "Slowly, an icy clam descended upon him"        (glom)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 84 12:42:58 EDT
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: matter transmission

no!  if you copy all the contents and spins and states from one
place to another, you do NOT have the same object: you have a
perfect COPY of the object.  the "me" here, my consciousness, will
NOT be transmitted, it will be DUPLICATED.  even though no one will
be able to tell the difference, thus making it a "transmission" to
the scientist, *I*'ll be dead, dead, dead.  i'm glad this isn't
going to come up in the near future, 'cuz i'm sure i'd be ridiculed
just like people who didn't think Man should fly, but it seems
obvious to me that getting in a matter transmitter would be fatal.
it really makes me understand how those people feel who refuse to
fly even though all their friends keep saying "look at me: i flew
and it hasn't hurt me a bit."

so enough of this line.  if you want matter transmission, you have
to do it using space/time warps.  obviously with a space/time warp,
you don't get playback.  so matter transmission does not imply
infinite duplication anymore than FTL does.

now if you ask me again tomorrow morning....

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Aug 84 22:53:35-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Metropolis

Most reissues of Metropolis contain the original cuts (a
demonstration that the absence of a thing is as real as its
presence?)

The main victims are the introduction, which shows a '30s view of
Olympic training, replete with overt Naziism and repressed
homosexuality; and the erotic dance of the golem (Brigitte Helm).
American censors usually removed another sequence, in which a giant
machine (Capitalism) is seen as Moloch devouring helpless humans
(Labor) [ First Amendment? - a mere piece of paper, Herr President
].

If you get the chance, SEE an uncut Metropolis.  The sound-track
problem is susceptible to a technical solution - take ear muffs!

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 84 21:27:00-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!apratt @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Last Starfighter

I would like to add something to this excellent review of TLS... The
movie gave itself away to me when Robert Preston (playing The Music
Man again) was driving the "car", and, for no apparent reason, took
off his human mask. It was gratuitous make-up stuff; there was no
motivation for the character to do what he did when he did it. That
made me realize that the movie was cheaply put together through and
through, and it wasn't likely to get any better.

Nice graphics, no plot, white bread characters, but boy, that Cray
X-MP sure could crank out those frames...
                                                -- Allan Pratt
                                                iuvax!apratt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 84 6:52:25-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!security!jjg @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #150

as I recall, the tombstone in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" said
"James R. Kirk", not "James T.".

/jeff

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Aug 84 23:10:32-CDT
From: R E Boyd <CC.BOYD@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek episodes

I seem to remember a guide to the Star Trek series, something like a
paragraph about each episode?  Any help in locating this list is
appreciated, thanks,

reb

[Moderator's Note:  This is available via the ANONYMOUS logon of
FTP in the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers.  The directory name
is T:<SFL>.  Also available are the following:

        Outer Limits Episode Guide
        Twilight Zone Episode Guide
        Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net
]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 84 12:47:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!convex!ayers @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Court Martial? - (nf)

Or how about the old standby that saves face for all:

We are announcing that Kirk and crew were on secret mission all
along.

or didn't you see the FIRST cloaking device story?????

                        blues, II

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 Aug 1984 09:51-EDT
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Kirk's future - Trek III

        Personally, I feel that if there is a Trek IV, much of what
happens to Kirk will (or should) be centered on the loss of what I
feel (personal opinion folks) was the real star of the series, the
Enterprise. If we all recall all the series in which Kirks life was
centered (especially emotionally) around the Enterprise. I feel her
loss was downplayed too much. For me, at least, the series won't be
the same. A new Enterprise just won't make it in my book!

                                        ---- Wes Miler ----
                                        wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #161
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 84 1157-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #161
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:

               Books - Delany & McKiernan & Pynchon &
                       Matter Transmission (5 msgs),
               Films - Metropolis & Dreamscape
               Miscellaneous - Humorless God & Filk Songs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 84 19:18:36-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Delany's - (nf)

       There is a British edition of The Tides of Lust (Savoy Books)
which may be a little easier to find. It has a black cover and LOOKS
like a porno novel. A shop in my vicinity keeps it in stock all the
time; they're also very good about mail orders. The address:

       Von's Books Store
       State Street
       West Lafayette, IN47907

       Despite being an avid Delany fan, I didn't enjoy Tides. The
later books were much more interesting.

                                        pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 84 7:32:36-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!wolenty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Iron Tower Trilogy

I have read "The Dark Tide" by Dennis McKiernan, part one of the
Iron Tower Trilogy and found it to be very enjoyable reading.  I
would recommend it to all who enjoy the epic quest ala "Lord of the
Rings".  Dwarves, elves, men and warrows unite to defend against the
'evil from the north'.  I can't wait for part two....

                                Ron Wolenty (AT&T Consumer Products)
                                Indpls., IN

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Aug 84 11:11:56 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Thomas Pynchon

Well, I don't know about you folks, but on the basis of "Gravity's
Rainbow", Thomas Pynchon is one of my favorite authors, up there
with Dickens, Joseph Conrad, and Mark Twain, and far beyond the
range of vision of Ellison and Silverberg.  (Nabakov is a great
writer, and I like many of his works; I couldn't criticize someone
who liked him more than Pynchon, but I do have my own preferences.)
Thomas Pynchon combines a weird world view with an awe inspiring
ability to write.  Admittedly, his books are not easy, and if you
gave up on "Ulysses", you'll very likely give up on Pynchon.  (In
fact, Pynchon reminds me more of Joyce than any other author, even
though he is far less interested in word games.)  But where else can
you find banana breakfasts, the Kenosha Kid, Rocketman, an octopus
with Pavlovian training to attack a certain woman, a hilarious
expose of the true nature of English hard candies (including the
dreaded Marmalade Surprise), a smuggler who flies in cream pies via
hot air balloon, and a hero whose sexual exploits have a disturbing
correlation with the places about to be destroyed by German V2
rockets?  Not to mention Rocket Limericks, some of the less obscene
of which have turned up in recent versions of UNIX's fortune
program.

        "The Crying of Lot 49" isn't anywhere near as good as
"Gravity's Rainbow", and parts of "V" are downright bad.  But I
haven't noticed any of those dumping on Pynchon saying anything
about "Gravity's Rainbow".  Perhaps they haven't read it.  To give
you an idea as to why I consider Pynchon so special, I include a
selection from "Gravity's Rainbow" which is part of one of my
favorite passages in all literature.  Little background is needed.
The scene is WWII Britain, Christmas Eve.  "The White Visitation" is
an insane asylum fronting for a research facility working on
military applications of paranormal activities.

"At "The White Visitation" there's a longtime schiz, you know, who
believes that *he* is World War II.  He gets no newspapers, refuses
to listen to the wireless, but still, the day of the Normandy
invasion somehow his temperature shot up to 104 degrees.  Now, as
the pincers east and west continue their slow reflex contraction, he
speaks of darkness invading his mind, of an attrition of self...The
Rundstedt offensive perked him up, though, gave him a new lease on
life-"A beautiful Christmas gift", he confessed to the residents on
the ward, "it's the season of birth, of fresh beginnings."  Whenever
the rockets fall- those which are audible- he smiles, turns out to
pace the ward, tears about to splash from the corners of his merry
eyes, caught up in a ruddy high tonicity that can't help cheering
his fellow patients.  His days are numbered.  He's to die on VE day.
If not in fact the war, then he's its child surrogate, living high
for a certain term, but come the ceremonial day, look out.  The true
king only dies a mock death.  Remember.  Any number of young men may
be selected to die in his place while the real king, foxy old
bastard, goes on.  Will he show up under the Star, slyly
genuflecting with the other kings as this winter solstice draws on
us?  Bring to the serai gifts of tungsten, cordite, high-octane?
Will the child gaze up from his ground of golden straw then, gaze
into the eyes of the old king who bends long and unfurling overhead,
leans to proffer his gift, will the eyes meet, and what message,
what possible greeting or entente will flow between the king and the
infant prince?  Is the baby smiling, or is it just gas?  Which do
you want it to be?"
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 84 10:46:59 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission
From: Jerry <Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA>

1) if E=mcc, the energy is a wavefront (vs particles), and somehow
        gravity ties to the mass/energy (large concentrations of
        energy affect matter), what happens as you transmit this
        gravity thru space/earth?

        i wouldnt want to get in the way of the beam sending a heavy
        wavefront.  Has any SF author given this treatment to this
        problem?

2) If the transciever requires LOTS of Quarks/Energy, Perhaps the
        limiting factor may be a quark enriched fuel, rare and
        expensive.  Brother could you spare a crystal to get me
        home?

3) The question of transmission of body/mind/soul might find some
        leads in old mythologies of ghosts and possessions.
        According to some, when the body dies suddenly (read
        disintegrates), the soul/ghost remains to haunt the area
        (perhaps because the body/home isnt reconstructed where it
        can be found). Or the tales of astral projection where
        somebody else takes over your body while you're away (with
        or without leave to do so). Suppose there is a mixup in
        transmission and you wind up echoing around while someone
        else uses your body. (wire taps?)

        There some good ideas in there somewhere for a
        paratechnomagickal story.

From the magic desk of
Jerry Isdale

arpa: isdale.es@Xerox.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Aug 84 14:34 EDT
From: Winston B. Edmond <wbe@bbn-vax.ARPA>
Subject: Suford Lewis's Am I the Same?

To Suford Lewis who wondered if he was the same when he wakes up in
the morning: No, you are not the same, even from moment to moment.
You are constantly changing.  As some would say, change is the only
constant.

Matter transmitters: As for matter transmitters not being able to
circumvent the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle well enough to
transmit people: one of the chief characteristics of living systems
is their ability to organize their environment.  An organism can
either change the environment to its liking, or can employ its
immune system to eliminate a problem.  As long as the matter
transference system leaves the organism's systems basically
undamaged, it should not matter if small errors occur during
transmission.  If the errors get too large, or course, the person
will be rather ill after being transmitted.
 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 84 10:18:36-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Disch, matter transmission - (nf)

       In case no one has mentioned this yet, Tom Disch's Echo
Around His Bones is also about matter transmission ( not one of his
best, tho).
                                    Bill H.
                                    pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 84 18:13:40-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission

>      How about pursuing the idea that matter
> transmission/duplication is possible, but very energy intensive.
> An obvious figure is the energy content of the mass sent/copied,
> i.e. E=mc^2.  The US electrical generating

Actually, it would be even worse; I suspect E=mc^2 would be the
IDEAL energy for it; production versions would be inefficient,
perhaps greatly so.  I would guess at 5%-20% efficiency in the very
first one built.  At E=mc^2 it would be excusable if we found the
technique but lacked the energy to make it work...

["Beam me up, Scotty" -- "Aye, but ye've gained weight, we dinna
come with the power to beam ye aboard, Captain"]

--bsa
Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsa: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET
                                         ^ Note name change!
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416

"The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis tae stop up
the drain."

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 84 8:25:23-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!mgnetp!burl!clyde!watmath!watrose!mabarnstijn @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Matter Transmission (NOT duplication)

A quick note: if all you wish to do is "transmit" mass Z from point
A to point B in 3-space, why not use the "old" idea: Cause a fold
through higer dimensions which then "aligns" A and B, and then push
Z through a "hole" created in some way.

I thought for sure that someone would eventually mention this, but
unless I missed it, no one did.  Thought I'd rake this oldie up.
However, its being old doesn't mean it ain't possible.  The
advantages are: no scanning for information content, no transmission
of more bits than you can shake a logic probe at, and no
reconstitution through matter transmutation at the other end.

Just step through and hot-foot it to the next booth before those
cops figure out what number you dialed!...

Michael A. Barnstijn
UUCP:  {decvax clyde allegra}!watmath!watrose!mabarnstijn
CSNET: mabarnstijn%watrose%waterloo.CSNET
ARPA:  mabarnstijn%watrose%waterloo.CSNET@csnet-relay.CSNET
other: Dept. Of C.S., University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario,
 Canada

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 84 13:17:44-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!garret @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Metropolis 1984

Has anybody seen the new souped-up version of "Metropolis" yet?
This one supposedly is in color and has a rock music score.

Thank you,

   Trisha O Tuama

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 84 16:43:58 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Dreamscape"

"Dreamscape" is yet another potboiler from the Hollywood SF factory.
Potboilers have an undeservedly bad reputation.  Sure, they're made
exclusively to make money, but, when well done, they can give value
for your admission price.  I don't want to see Bergman, Kurosawa,
and Renoir all the time.  "Dreamscape" is a good enough film, and I
doubt if anyone expected more from it.  I certainly didn't, so I
wasn't disappointed.  On the other hand, I also wasn't surprised.

The premise is that those with strong psychical ability can project
themselves into the dreams of others.  Once this is done, they can
become active participants in those dreams.  If they're good enough,
they can even shape them to fit their desires.  Now, throw in a
handsome young psychic blackmailed into participating, a kindly old
researcher who means well, a sinister rightwing government type
who's backing the experiments, an obviously looney psychic, a
beautiful doctor who doesn't want to jeopardize the experiments by
falling in love, and a President whose nuclear related nightmares
are impelling him towards disarmament.  It shouldn't take you too
long to figure out the major plot twists.  Even the minor characters
are formulaic.  A little kid beset by nightmares obviously exists to
provide our hero with a nasty monster to fight and to demonstrate
his abilities.  An expose-type author is marked for death the moment
we know what he's after.

Any surprises in the film are on a very low level, such as just what
will pop out at what point in a nightmare.  This isn't the way to
make a good movie, but it is the way to do a genre picture.  The
audience for such a film isn't after brilliant insights and novel
plot twists.  They just want the rollercoaster to follow the same
tracks as usual, and it doesn't take much from the enjoyment that
you can see the whole ride's progress from the moment you get on.

The cast does solid work.  Dennis Quaid is strong and resourceful as
Our Hero.  Kate Capshaw finally gets a break from screaming
impotently (the bulk of her assignments in "Indiana Jones" and "Best
Defense").  Max von Sydow plays the kindly scientist and Christopher
Plummer the evil head of an intelligence agency (I suppose that they
just flipped a coin to see which of them got which of the two parts;
both actors are old hands at these sorts of things).  Eddie Albert
is convincing enough as the President.  He plays it as least as well
as Ronnie.

The effects are OK, though the dream snakeman is animated rather
unconvincingly.  One or two of the images in the dream sequences are
striking, but overall these are not very imaginative dreams.
Photography and music are about par for this kind of thing.  Joseph
Ruben,the director, managed to get in a few good touchs but was
ultimately unable to convince me that I hadn't seen this all before.

In one sense, "Dreamscape" is a very good movie.  You are almost
certain to know beforehand whether or not you will like it.  I liked
it more than, say, "The Philadelphia Experiment", since it really
knew where it was going, but much less than "Raiders of the Lost
Ark", since it couldn't provide any surprises on the way.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 84 11:51:34-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: "Humorless God": is there any other kind?

vice!keithl suggests that some people were created in the image of a
humorless god.  This implies that God might not be humorless.  A few
weeks ago I saw a TV show called "DeBono's Thinking Course", in with
Dr. DeBono proved logically that God cannot have a sense of humor:

God knows everything;
therefore, God knows all the punch lines.

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 84 10:03:00-PDT (Sat)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcsb!mcdaniel @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS 'who ius - (nf)



"I pray for one last landing
 On the globe that gave me birth.
Let me rest my eyes on fleecy skies
 And the cool, green hills of Earth."

A fun game: think up possible tunes for this song.

Some thoughts are below.  The rhythm and note matching is as
indicated below.  Each word of "Green Hills" is put below its
corresponding word of the original song.  Sing the new word at the
same note that the old word is sung at.  Sometimes a phrase
corresponds to a phrase -- the rhythms are different.  Got it?

"House of the Rising Sun":
    There is   a   house in   New Orleans . . .
    I     pray for one   last landing . . .

The Coke song: I'd like to  teach the  world to sing . . .
               I   pray for one   last landing  on . . .

"Jingle Bells":
    Jingle bells, jingle bells,        jingle     all  the way . . .
      I pray for one last langing on the globe that gave us  birth...
        (very fast and cheery! also the most sickening of the bunch)

Try singing them at a con! I'll pay survivor benefits to your
next-of-kin. :-)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #162
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Aug 84 1203-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #162
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Aug 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:

        Books - Heinlein & Scholz & Jokes & Reader's Guide &
                Matter Transmission,
        Films - Dreamscape (2 msgs) & Star Wars,
        Miscellaneous - Songs (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday, 20 Aug 1984 08:07:35-PDT
From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah)
Subject: Rhysling

Rhysling is the blind "Poet of the Sapceways" from Robert A.
Heinlein's Future History series. He is eulogized in the title story
of "The Green Hills of Earth".

The entire series is also contained in the omnibus edition, "The
Past Through Tomorrow".
                                        Andrew Kenah
                                        DEC in Nashua, N.H.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 84 04:17:18 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: A review of PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt

PALIMPSESTS.  Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt.  Ace Specials,
  c1984.

Non-spoiler review:  A difficult read.  Pynchon fans may like it.

Micro-spoiler review:

This is billed as a time-travel novel, but it is as much about time
travel as GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is about space travel.  The style is
very 'artistic' and convoluted, the protagonist is an angst-ridden
anti-hero, and the story ends with a deflating anti-climax.  There
are some people who see these things as virtues, among them Barry
Malzberg, who renders glowing compliments to Carter Scholz on the
back flap.  I didn't enjoy GRAVITY'S RAINBOW and I had to force
myself to finish this novel, but I know people who adore Pynchon and
might like PALIMPSESTS.

Mini-spoiler review:

This novel stirs me to make bad 'angst' jokes.  ('What is nihilism?'
'One angst clapping.' Maybe it sounds better with elephants...) The
novel is not all bad -- sometimes it slips in a good one:

        Uneasily Camus lit a cigarette.  Carpenter was close to
        raving.  He held his arms apart now, facing the coffin.  'O
        sublime ALU-father, daddy data, maw of the motherboard,
        blind as a battery, adding in ADA, singing the
        giga-GIGO-data-dada-blues, yes, tremulous deliria of deltic
        delphic time, the fast fast blues, the ultraviolet and the
        invisible....' He broke off witha rough laugh.  'Blacks get
        blues.  Whites get angst.  Machines get even.  It's called
        parity.'

If you like this sort of thing, then you might like this book since
virtually all the dialogues and internal monologues are written the
same way, alternating philosophical and literary allusions with
'prose-poetry' and amusing Pynchon-like ramblings.  The plot, such as
it is, centers around a German graduate student in paleoanthropology
with the unlikely name of Camus.  (Most of the characters have
unlikely names, another steal from Pynchon.) Camus is amazingly
selfish for a person who seems to be completely empty -- he has no
visible ambitions or strong emotions, other than boredom and
occasionally lust.  We are told that he enjoys failure and is
irritated by success, so he is actually feeling pretty good at a
pointless dig in the Neander Valley.  But a hidden cave is
discovered by his advisor, Professor Warner, and in that cave is
found a Neanderthal skeleton and a curious block of metal two
centimeters on a side, weighing two kilograms.  This block is
construed as evidence of time travel (not visiting aliens, for some
reason) and when Camus finds himself in possession of it he learns
that a certain organization is willing to kill to obtain it.  During
the chase Camus manages to fall in love again with his old
girlfriend; I found these scenes to be the most enjoyable in the
book, although of course he dumps her again later on and she
attempts to revenge herself on him.  The block and the corporation
are meant to be analogous to the corresponding substance and company
in GRAVITY'S RAINBOW (yet another steal).  Eventually the company
captures Camus with the help of Professor Warner and Camus is forced
to descend through the heavily symbolic seven levels of its mammoth
underground building in Alaska, whose inhabitants have all been
driven insane by unresolved angst or tainted egg-salad sandwiches or
something.

Why read about angst when you can enjoy it in the comfort of your
own home?  Yawn.  The authors DID leave out Pynchon's imitations of
Rabelais' lists, and the constant sexual philandering.  ('But
GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is SUPPOSED to be boring -- it's demonstrating the
banality of war with the banality of sex.'  'If you say so.')

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa

PS -- There do appear to be some possibly better Ace Specials coming
down the pike, according to the list in PALIMPSESTS: Howard
Waldrop's novel THEM BONES is scheduled for November and Michael
Swanwick's IN THE DRIFT should come out in February next year.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 84 15:23:47-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!alberta!sask!hardie @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer)

I beg to differ .... the answer to 'how many Outsiders does it take
to change a lightbulb is ....

That information will cost you one trillion credits.

Sorry.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 84 10:43:54 CDT
From: Will Martin -- DRXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Reader's Guide to Fantasy

I've been looking at a book that readers of SF-Lovers should find of
some interest. It is A READER'S GUIDE TO FANTASY, by Baird Searles,
Beth Meacham, and Michael Franklin (1982, Facts on File publishers).

It is a survey volume, most of which is an alphabetical list of
authors, with a discussion of their fantasy works. Minor authors get
half a page or so; major ones get 3-4 pages. Other sections include
lists of series, arranged by author and series name, and some lists
of recommended reading and general discussion of the genre.

It's not the sort of thing that most people would find worth buying,
but it is handy to get from the library and scan through. I made
notes as I read it about books and series which sounded as if I
would enjoy them. I then searched through the catalog in the library
trying to find these books. Sadly, the St. Louis Public Library
system was lacking most of the ones I wanted, and, annoyingly, they
would have some of a series but not all (missing one or more out of
the middle, which is inexplicable to me -- I could understand having
the first or first few and then not having the rest, but not missing
#3 out of a series of four, for example). I hope your library system
is better!

The book is somewhat sloppily constructed. There are an annoying
number of typos. The word "quest" is spelled "guest" repeatedly, for
example. (Maybe typesetting from poor handwriting?) But an editor
and proofreader should catch this stuff. Also, an appendix lists
winners of various fantasy awards, yet not all those listed as
winners are included in the author listings.

However, as a source of suggestions as to what you might like to
read, it is useful. Since a lot of fantasy is aimed at children, it
is sometimes hard to determine what an adult will enjoy reading.
Having this sort of guide helps weed out authors or books you don't
want to bother with, and gives hints to those you might want to keep
an eye out for at a used book store or a con.

Regards, Will

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 09:34 PDT
From: alfke.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Still another m.t. story . . .

OK, I remember a story (but not the title or author, unfortunately)
in which matter transmission had replaced other forms of public
transit; i.e. the booths were large and expensive and run by the
city (of New York, I believe).  This being a public transit system,
it of course breaks down one day during rush hour, leaving several
dozen people in the process of transmission as it stops.  These
people find themselves, in the midst of what was normally an
instantaneous process, stuck in a limbo (a batch output queue?) with
no sensory input.  While the repairmen fix the central transceiver
(which takes a few hours), the people in the machine find themselves
able to communicate telepathically, and during this time a pregnant
woman who is being rushed to the hospital gives birth, the child
becoming the first person ever to be born "in transit" . . .

I read this story in an anthology several years back.  I think I
have the plot straight, but I'd be interested in hearing from anyone
who knows what story this is.

Anyway, this seems like a fairly interesting method of matter
transmission.  Although these people have no bodies at all for
several hours, they obviously retain their souls (minds,
consciousnesses, whatever) -- so where are the souls stored?  Are
they "haunting" the machine?  Could the souls be "bottled" and put
into, say, a memory board?  Could the machine be made to put the
wrong soul in the wrong body when the body rematerializes?

                                        -- Peter Alfke
                                     (Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA)

(And, if only one person survived the ordeal, would he be the soul
survivor?  No, but seriously folks . . . )

------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 Aug 84 17:41:06-PDT
From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Dreamscape

In reply to Dave Mankins' message about Dreamscape:

Some who have seen "Dreamscape" seem to think it was a good SF
film.  I very much disagree.

The plot was thin; the villain was under-developed and quite simple
minded.  In the end the hero was able to defeat the villian and save
all only because the villain came right out and told our hero the
secret to 'dream warfare'.

The dream sequences contained very few special effects.  The main
dream monster (the snake-man) was nothing more than a rubber suite
one could probably buy at a good costume store.  I felt the special
effects were very much substandard for a 1984 film.  A number of the
dreams had a nuclear destruction theme and in these you can see film
clips from 1950's DoD tests.  These clips were made into 'special
effects' by simply adding color masks and filters.  Such techniques
would be acceptable for TV or a feature film make 25 years ago but
not in a modern SF film.

Also I felt the film did not nearly enough develop the technical
aspects of dream intervention.  In the early parts of the movie all
kinds of computers and electrical equipment are shown to be used to
help a person enter another person's dream yet not even a hint as to
how this is done is given.

So if you want to see a good SF film, avoid "Dreamscape" at all
costs.
        Doug Bryan
        bryan@su-sierra

        facts are temporary...
        long live fantasy!

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 84 15:20:01 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: "Dreamscape" (Peter Reiher's review in V9 #161)
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@XEROX.ARPA>

"An expose-type author is marked for death the moment we know what
he's after."

No, he wrote horror novels (one of which he showed) and was getting
material for a new book (he even said so). This is something I liked
about the movie. It brought up several of the implications of dream
manipulation/observance.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1984  9:45:02 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Vicki Kanrek <vkanrek@BBNCCF.ARPA>
Subject: Star Wars I - Conjecture...

Regarding the recent blurb in CINEFANTASTIQUE, a couple of
questions:

a)  WHY do people feel Cinefastastique is biased against Lucas et al?

b) IF the leak is true, then what possibilities do people out there
    foresee as a possible plot for Star Wars I??  Who will be in
    it?, i.e., will they manage to get the current 'stars' in
    playing their ancestors?  Ian McDermid is, after all, young
    enough to play a younger Senator Palpitane.  Will this be a
    boring disappointment, like the unfortunate muppet show part of
    Jedi, or the overuse of mucus therein?

My sister and I would love to hear some conjecture on the above.
Frankly, I don't think Lucas can pull it off, and still feel he
should quit while 'ahead'.  (She thinks he can!) Of course, I hated
ROTJ the first time, and have now come to love it AND TESB, too!
Talk about a 180!

Any thoughts will be muchly appreciated.

                                        Vicki Kanrek
                                        (vjk@bbn-unix.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 08:23 PDT
From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #161

"I've tried each spinning space mote
  And reconned its true worth
Take me back again to the homes of Men
 And the cool, green hills of Earth."

Try the Gilligan's Island theme.

--Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 Aug 84 10:38:43-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <GOLD@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Cool Green Hills of Earth

Forgive me for asking, but why bother to put this song to a
different tune?  Is the original tune so obscure that nobody seems
to know it?

If you can pick it up, radio station WVHC in Hempstead, NY (Long
Island), at 88.7 FM used to have and probably still does have a C&W
program called Western Star which is run on Saturday mornings (I
suggest calling them at (516)489-8870 for the exact time slot).  Why
do I bother to mention this?  Well, it just happens to be the case
that the woman who does this show is an avid fan of SF, and "Cool
Green Hills of Earth" was the first Science-Fiction-Country-And-
Western song ever done, as she will gladly tell you.  In fact, Alice
likes it SO much that she uses it as her closing theme!

For those of us who aren't within WVHC's broadcast range, the best I
can do to describe the tune is to say it is similar to "The Green,
Green Grass of Home."

Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 Aug 84 16:48:15-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #161

More tunes for "Green Hills of Earth":

Gilligan's Island Theme (not bad if done slowly)

Beethoven's 9th (the Ode to Joy part)

Clementine

Basically, since the song is in iambic septameter(?), it fits a huge
number of songs.  Lovely way to get a free shower.

                wz

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 84 11:20:57-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS 'who ius - (nf)

AWFUL tunes for some favorite words...

     Just sit  right back and  you'll hear a tale
     I    pray for   one  last landing     on

     A   tale  of a fateful trip
     The globe that gave us birth

     That   started  from this   tropic port
     Let us lift our eyes to the fleecy skies

     Aboard      this  tiny     ship...
     Of the cool green hills of Earth...

And another:

     In a    cavern,  in  a canyon
     Soldier ask not, now or ever

     Exca-    va- ting for a    mine
     Where to war your bannners go

     Dwelt a  miner   Forty-Niner
     Anarch's legions all surround us

     And his    daughter Clementine
     Strike and do not   count the blow

Want more?  Try "Greensleeves" to the Gilligan's island theme.  Try
"The Marines' Hymn" to "Clementine."  Try "Clementine" to "The Song
of the Volga Boatmen" (you know, "Yo ho heave ho (ugh), Yo ho heave
ho (ugh)...").

Slaughterer of favorite songs:

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)         [UUCP]
                 (tekecs!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA]

P.S.  Can anyone tell me what the Subject: line of the base article
means?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #163
Date: 23 Aug 84 1232-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #163
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Aug 84 1232-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #163
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Aug 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:

              Books - MacAvoy & Pynchon & Swycaffer &
                      Psychologically Complex Authors & 
                      Matter Transmission & Souls (3 msgs),
              Films - Metropolis & Star Trek (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 10:40:25 EDT
Subject: "Raphael"
From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@csnet-sh.arpa>

        I've just finished "Raphael", by R. A. MacAvoy, and I can
wholeheartedly recommend the series which it concludes, the first
two books being "Damiano" and "Damiano's Lute".  Good writing is,
thankfully, becoming less rare in the fantasy field, and this is
very good writing indeed.  What is much more rare is originality,
and this we receive in full measure here.  I hadn't realized how
irritated and depressed I was becoming, reading all of the other
recent fantasy.  (One major offender in this regard is Patricia C.
Wrede: an excellent writer whose works I enjoy, but whose plots, and
most of whose characters, practically have visible mold marks.)
MacAvoy lets me rejoice in not knowing what is coming next.  This is
not the frenetic confusion that marked things like the "Illuminatus"
trilogy, but a well-played sense that the author knows what is
coming, and dares you to guess what it is.

        There are times when the author hides too much of the
overall motivation of the book, and what started as a tightly
plotted story turns picaresque.  There is nothing wrong with a
picaresque novel, to be sure, but a transition to and from such a
style within a single book can be jarring.  Compared to the grevious
literary offenses committed by the author's peers, however, this is
a minor flaw indeed.

        Those who take their literature straight, and can be found
in the company of Jane Austen as well as Robert Heinlein, will enjoy
these books immensely.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 21 Aug 84 13:50:17 EDT
Subject: Pynchon's New Clothes

I see Peter's at it again; 'bout time for a balanced view...

Long time ago a friend of mine sat on my chest until I promised to
read GRAVITY'S RAINBOW.  I read the first 24,268 pages or so (just
kidding guys, it only FELT that long) and then gave up.

Is GRAVITY'S RAINBOW literature?  I guess so; says so on the label
and all that.  Is it a story?  No.

What it is is an inner core of clever notions embedded in a 15,000
kilometer-thick outer crust of self-indulgent, chaotic,
goshwowaintiawordsmith verbal posturings.  I happen to be a
reactionary with respect to *Style* (note ASCII reverence marks) and
I believe it should lurk in the dark spaces beneath the prose and
bite you in the ass when you aren't looking.  All through GR I felt
myself getting hit so hard on the head with *Style* that my ears are
still ringing.  Pynchon was straining so hard for *Style* I thought
he'd bust a hemmorhoid and bleed to death.

There was a good novel knocking around in there somewhere.  Written
cleanly at about one third its current monumental length, the book
just might have had something real to say about war and human
foolishness.  As it stands, I think it's terminally artsyfartsy and
not worth the effort to find a gem every 300 pages.

Send brickbats freight collect; they're too heavy for UPS.

Jeff Duntemann
duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 1984 17:56:21 PDT
Subject: "Not in Our Stars"
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

   "Not in Our Stars" by Jefferson P. Swycaffer just came out. It's
not a bad book: it has a lot of interesting space battles, admirals
screaming at each other, and political intrigue. Sort of like
Pournelle, except without a right-wing slant. Swycaffer's universe
is based loosely on the game "Traveller", so if you like the game,
you'll probably like the book.
                                        enjoy,
                                           John Platt

------------------------------

Date: Mon Aug 20 21:15:04 1984
From: mclure@sri-prism
Subject: psychologically complex authors

Re: Gravity's Rainbow.

I tried reading it. I got about one or two hundred pages in and gave
up (as I did with Delaney's DAHLGREN and Clavell's SHOGUN and ...)

There's only so much claptrap I'm willing to put up with. If the
author doesn't catch and hold my attention in one hundred pages, I
figure he's failed miserably.

Gravity's Rainbow is amusing but grossly overlong.  I think much of
Pynchon's popularity comes from his 'errie personal life' as
perceived by his fans (much as with J.D.  Salinger).

As far as Joyce goes, I'm not impressed with him either.  I think
FINNEGAN'S WAKE is pathetic garbage.  I don't know a single person
who has finished it or even claims to understand 1% of what the guy
is trying to say (he's trying to say something?).  ULYSSES is
somewhat better but has much of the same.

If you are looking for superior fiction, pick up a copy of Vladimir
Nabokov's THE ANNOTATED LOLITA.  It has many puzzle-like themes
running through it, but it maintains the humanity so many of the
others lack.  I have not read a better work in the English language
than this book.  Joyce, Conrad, Faulkner, etc.  all pale in
comparison with what the master Nabokov does with the English
language in this book.  It revitalized the idea of the English novel
when it came out.  Many critics, at the time, felt that the English
novel was dead.

Other fine Nabokov books: ADA, THE DEFENSE, PALE FIRE, PNIN.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 84 17:45 PDT
From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Matter Transmission and Souls

Here's a problem which arises, then: Today I'm me.  I'm made up of
around 160 pounds of matter, and if I step into a matter- transport,
the machine goes *wrrrrr* and poof!, it copies all of the spin
states and the wave forms of the atoms and molecules making up the
poor fat of this body, and duplicates it, zapping this old poor body
in the sending booth in the process.  Is it really *me* in the new
location? (Or is it Memorex?)

Okay, so I'm not me.  I'm just a copy of the old *me*.

I go to sleep tonight, and a few molecules in my brain get shuffled
out, and some new ones take their places.  This happens all the
time; I'm slowly, amino acid by amino acid, being replaced by new
molecules.

In a few years, the majority of the molecules which used to be in
*me* before are now gone; replaced.  The mass of the matter, instead
of being ripped up and destroyed, only to be reassembled, has now
over a period of many years been destroyed and flushed away.

Okay: is it really me now?  I mean before I got put into a matter-
transmitter; now I've just sat around on my behind for a couple of
years.  So, am I really me, or am I a cheap imitation, made up of
matter from Big-Macs and Milk-Shakes?

  -  From the smoking remains of
           Bill Woody

"You are what you eat."

------------------------------

From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 20 Aug 84 15:52:28 EDT
Subject: Silicon souls

Ahhh, souls...one of my favorite topics as a writer.  For those who
are interested, I've had three pertinent stories in print:

"Ariel" in a hammy collection called TALES OF THE MARVELOUS MACHINE,
  published by Creative Computing Press.  A man who has just lost
  his wife of many years asks a priest: Can a computer have a soul,
  and is it moral to "turn him off?"

"Silicon Psalm" in IASFM for February 1981.  An intelligent medical
  life support system is asked by its patient to turn her off and
  let her die.

"Guardian" in IASFM for September 1980.  Was on the Hugo final
  ballot in 1981.  An ancient fighting machine emerges from a swamp
  after 1700 years and challenges the beliefs of a rural abbott in a
  ruined future America.

Not many writers have taken this issue by the horns; most cannot
disconnect the silliness of organized religion from the serious
questions of the nature of spirit and human immortality.  Most
assume that there cannot be immortal souls without admitting to some
kind of almighty God--a connection I find puzzling, and a tribute to
the power of pseudochristian brainwashing.

Gaby's spiritual presence after death in Varley's DEMON is one of
the few thoughtful explorations of the notion of spirit to appear in
recent years.

Also see "Trinity" by Nancy Kress in the current edition of IASFM.
Nan is a good friend and I helped her with the project a little.
"Trinity" is all the more remarkable considering it came from a
rather militant Atheist--Nan is considerably more openminded about
the notion of spirit than several (mostly male) writers Whose Names
You Would Know, who have poked fun of every serious attempt to
consider the possibilities of spirit and immortality to come up in
discussions I've had with them.  At worst, their reactions remind me
of the poor sap who throws a screaming temper tantrum anytime
anybody suggests we think about the possibilities of travelling
faster than light.

Pure rationality is necessary, but insufficient to our understanding
of the universe and how it works.  Just ask Schroedinger's Cat.

Jeff Duntemann
duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Souls and Clones
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 84 00:29 EDT

Syd Logsdon: ^SA Fond Farewell to Dying^S, discusses the problem of
the transfer of the soul in a cloned human being.

Alternate notes on matter transmission/creation: why is it necessary
to create ^Sa lot^S of matter?  If you are re/constructing to meet
subatomic specifications, you might as well create wafer-sized IC's,
worth far more than gold by weight.  Surgical implants and
extractions in otherwise unreachable sites, etc, etc.
  As a weapon: pump some small amount of mass (say, one years'
garbage output of NYC) into a single point; this'll create a black
hole which will quickly evaporate in a rather nasty explosion.  (I
^Stried^S to turn this into an energy source, but the amt. of mass
to stabilize the evaporation is just too large.  In what would be
managable, you could only create a blot which would explode in no
time at all.)

steve

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 84 12:41:42-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: souls

[The world is a Klein bottle]

> From: HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA
> I like to consider the soul as a process, with our body as the
> hardware on which it is running.  This raises another interesting
> issue that I would like to see SF explore.  If we succeed in
> creating an intelligent computer, at what point does it become
> murder to turn it off?  Or is it enough if we store its current
> state on tape?  (Perhaps turning it off in that case is not murder
> but kidnapping.)

        "...He had been threatened with disconnection; he would be
deprived of all his inputs, and thrown into an unimaginable state of
unconsciousness.

        "To Hal, this was the equivalent of Death.  For he had never
slept, and therefore could not know that one could wake again..."

                           -Arthur C. Clarke,
                           "2001:  A Space Odyssey" (novelization)

Which could become an important consideration when we get
intelligent computers going.  Remember: the moment consumers are
able to get at them, some brain is going to do something really
ignorant and foolish; an intelligent computer is going to have to
put up with a LOT of human foibles.  If he (the I.C.) feels the way
HAL did, we're all in trouble.

bsa
Brandon Allbery:
     decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!ncoast!bsa: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET
                                 ^ Note name change!
     6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416

"The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis tae stop up
the drain."

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 84 6:36:58-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!tellab3!steve @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Metropolis 1984

Yes and it's pretty good. I wouldn't say they added full color ---
just some scenes are "tinted". The music helped alot (although the
lyrics get corny now and then). The subtitles have been redone and
some footage which was cut out of the original flick for America has
been spliced back in. This makes the film alot easier to follow.

...ihnp4!tellab1!steve
Steve Harpster
Tellabs, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 09:26 EDT
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #160

Kirk's tombstone in Where No Man Has Gone Before, incorrectly reads
in the Blish novelizations as James R.  Kirk (this is where you got
the R.  from).  Anyone know what, if readable at all, the tombstone
in the series read???

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe@rand-unix>
Date: 21 Aug 84 13:04:06 PDT (Tue)
Subject: Star Trek, The TV Show

Channel 13, a local Los Angeles TV station, showed a double bill
last night.  Part one was an hour-long "special" on the character
development of Spock which was narrated by Leonard Nimoy.  It had
clips from many episodes, as well as from the first two movies.
From remarks at the end, it was made during the filming of "The
Search for Spock".  Part two was the episode "Space Seed" from the
first season of STAR TREK (the one about original discovery of
Khan's Botany Bay sleeper ship and his first attempt to take over
the Enterprise).

Both shows had "commercials" from Channel 13, claiming that the
station has found at Paramount the original shooting film, made new
35mm prints, and will be showing the original STAR TREK TV episodes
**UNCUT** this fall (no time or days given).  I lost too many great
moments to Cal Worthington commercials during the syndicated reruns
to appreciate them.  If the screening of "Space Seed" last night was
any indication, the reprints are gorgeous--clean color, no
streaks--and complete!

Further, Herve Bennet really did his homework on the episode.  At
one point in evaluating Khan's recovery in the Enterprise sick bay,
McCoy remarks to Kirk "He's strong.  He could probably lift you and
me both with one arm", prefiguring the scene where Khan lifts Chekov
in STII.  And later, McCoy assures Lt.  Marla McGivers (who
eventually becomes Mrs.  Khan) that Khan is recovering "There's
something in this man that won't accept death."  As Khan would say,
"Excellent".

--Christe McMenomy

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 84 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the
movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".  People who have not
yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following message.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1984 1321-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Star Trek IV

There's a lot of talk on what may happen if ST IV continues along
the same path as ST II and ST III. Who's to say that it will
continue that way.  STTMP and STtRoK take place year(s) apart
because this newly refurbished Enterprise has become a training
ship. What is to say that ST IV couldn't happen at some earlier time
say the last adventure of the now immortalized 5-year mission. Or
maybe they could overlook the entire thing and just make a Star Trek
movie. I hope they don't get hung up on what happened before. Think
carefully how much of the main action of ST II was incorporated into
ST III all the Gensis/Spock stuff was just filler leading up to the
ST III. The main action was Kahn escaping and going after Kirk. So
maybe there is some action perhaps on the side that we may be
missing. (ie the 'secret mission' etc) that will quickly resolve the
past and let them continue on into the future with a new adventure.
(maybe McCoy and Spock will now share some mind link that the
Klingons and/or Romulans will use to get to Spock.) remember Kirk
did steal a Klingon ship, maybe they're mad at him.. (something to
think about) after all courtroom movies are good only if you haven't
seen all the action before (a la Breaker Morant or even the
Courtmarshall episode of ST).

                Warren Sander  [SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Aug  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #164
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Aug 84 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #164
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Aug 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 164

Today's Topics:

            Books - Longyear & Pohl (5 msgs) & Pynchon &
                    Fantasy Reading Recommendation & Book Request &
                    Matter Transmission (5 msgs) & Jokes,
            Films - Movie Request,
            Miscellaneous - SFLOVERS Party at Worldcon & Songs (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 26 Aug 1984 22:08:08-PDT
From: goldenberg%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ruth Goldenberg)
Subject: Adagio by Barry Longyear

I recommend that you go buy/read the Sept. Omni for Adagio by Barry
Longyear.  It's a great story - imaginative plot, more real-sounding
dialogue and monologue than most, and a glorious punchline. Almost
any plot details would spoil it - it's the story of 5 people
stranded on an out-of-the-way planet and what they do in their
copious free time.

Ruth Goldenberg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 84 20:40:41-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Fredrick Pohl's "Gateway"

Does anybody know if there was any sequel to "Gateway" ?  If so,
please mail the title to me.

Did anybody else like that book as much as I did ?  I thought he set
up a really interesting civilization.  On par with Asimov's
civilization in "The God's Themselves".

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
    (201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 84 6:25:42-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Sequel to Gateway

The sequel to Frederik Poul's book "Gateway" is "Beyond The Blue
Event Horizon" copyright 1980, published by Ballantine Books, ISBN
0-345-27535-7.

I dug my copy out of the attic as I could not remember the title at
first.  Most of the mysteries of the Heechee are answered and
Robinette Broadhead is still the main character.

                        Nuf Sed
                                Rick Schieve

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 84 11:46:43-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Fredrick Pohl's "Gateway"

Try "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon". Excellent sequel to "Gateway".
There may be a third in this series.

Fritz Benedict  (512)471-4461x448
uucp: {...seismo,decvax}!noao!utastro!fritz
arpa: fritz@ut-ngp
snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX  78712

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 84 10:19:31-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Heeche revisited

>> I'm told, but have not read, that the Heechee appear in THE
>> MERCHANTS OF VENUS.
>>
>>      Neil Ostrove    cbosgd!ost

Does anyone know if this is true ?

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
    (201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 84 6:31:22-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Sequels to "Gateway"

The sequels are :

        1       Gateway  (paperback)
        2       Beyond the blue event horizon  (paperback)
        3       HeeChee rendezvous  (hardback , just out)

To everybody who answered me -- thank you very much.

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
    (201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 84 23:38:35 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Pynchon

Needless to say, I do not agree with Mr. Duntemann's and Mr.
Mclure's appraisal of "Gravity's Rainbow".  I should have mentioned
earlier that "Gravity's Rainbow" is not the sort of book everyone
will like.  But, if you do like it, you'll probably *really* like
it.  Thus, for those with any interest, I suggest borrowing a copy
and reading the first fifty or one hundred pages.  If you don't like
it by this point, quit, as the beginning of the book is
representative of the rest.  (On one important point Duntemann is
definitely right.  "Gravity's Rainbow" is very long, over 800 pages
of small type in my edition.  If you dislike long books, probably
you shouldn't bother with it.)  Might further discussion of the
literary merits of this book be better carried out in private mail
or net.books?
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 84 7:07:12-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!harvard!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!browngr!smd @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Fantasy reading recommendation (request)

    I'd like to see reveiws to at least some of the series you
mentioned.
    In addition I need some recommendations for some books to read
in general, both in fantasy and science fiction.  I've just about
exhausted my old author favorites and I'm anxiously awaiting new
books by them.  Here is a list of some of my favorites....reviews
can be furnished if requested:
        Piers Anthony, Randall Garrett, David Gerrold, James Hogan
        Ann McCaffery, Larry Niven, Alan Dean Foster, Robert
        Forward, Lyndon Hardy, and Christopher Stasheff.
smd%brown@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1984 06:45:18 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
Subject: Author/title request

   Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in
which only one person voted.  Statistical sampling had advanced to
the point that one specially chosen citizen could be questioned
about many different things and the outcome of any contest
predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs.  It was a
great honor to be the person chosen, even though you knew that about
1/2 of the country would be mad at you.  It didn't even matter which
candidate YOU personally wanted, just how your answers reflected
society as a whole.  The subject was hooked into a polygraph device,
not because of fear of lying, but to help measure the exact strength
of feelings when the verbal answers were given.  Anyone know
title/author?

Thanx,
Steve (carroll@USC-ISIB)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 84 15:27:51-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!barnett @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Yet another m.t. story . . .

After all these weeks of discussion on matter transmission, I just
remembered a really interesting story with an odd twist on it.  The
story (novel, I guess, though I read an abridgement in some
anthology when I was about 12) is "The Stars My Destination" by
Alfred Bester.  It's called "jaunting," and is a mental rather than
a mechanical process.  You have to know the spatial coordinates of
your destination before you start, then you just sort of wish
yourself there, if I remember correctly.  Not knowing your
destination results in personal disaster.  Part of the story takes
place in a prison, where one of the prevalent means of "escape" is
the "blue jaunt," a one-way trip that is detectable by the
characteristic muffled thud it produces.  The hero of the story, one
Gulliver Foyle, is somewhat unusual (even in this scenario) in that
he is the first man to discover how to jaunt in space *and* time.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin,
 TX 78712

-- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
      {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 1984  23:58 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: alfke.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Still another m.t. story . . .

Basically, the issue of "what happens if you get temporarily stuck
in a processor because of reason x" has had many manifestations,
most notably (to me) "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" by...run to
bookshelf...  John Varley, reprinted in the 1977 World's Best SF.

%RMS-PERSON-OVERFL Personality Overflows Virtual Address Space

                                        Stuck on magtape,
                                        James Turner

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 84 8:20:17-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!scgvaxd!wlbr!dcm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Yet another m.t. story . . . YAMTS?

An excellant book is Transmission Error by (Memory fault:core uh,
core uh? er?).

See what happens when some one changes the setting of a matter
transmitter at the last minute.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 24 Aug 84 11:17:01-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hp-labs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Matter Transmission

Matter transmission can quite possibly be accomplished without
technology remotely resembling that required for replication.  Aside
from the psi-based (i.e., magic) teleportation of Null-A, there is a
possible quantum mechanical explanation.  As Scotty (aka James
Blish) explains in /Spock Must Die!/:

        "What the transporter does is analyze the energy /state/ of
        each particle in the body and then produce a Dirac jump to
        an equivalent state somewhere else.  No conversion is
        involved -- if there were, we'd blow up the ship." (p. 3)

An alternative explanation relies on the same principle whereby
black holes can be used to create TV sets.  What you think is your
body is only a collection of probabilities.  We simply (!) build a
machine that makes it much more probable that your body is someplace
else and presto! you're there.  The Infinite Improbability Drive in
the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is in all "probability" based
on exactly this principle.

There is also the question of whether it's really "you" when you get
to the other end.  Well, if you look at it the right way, you're
really staying still while the rest of the universe has been moved.
(Einstein said we could look at it this way.)  So you really are
still "you".  As for the rest of the universe...

P.S. Is there any basis to the rumor that ST IV will be called
        STAR TREK IV: The Wrath of Spock ??

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 84 20:27:25-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!psc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Suford Lewis's Am I the Same?

"Suford Lewis:  is he the same when he wakes up the next morning?"

If, one morning, she didn't wake up female, she sure wouldn't be the
same!  (If I'm confusing SL with someone else, this joke is going to
be humorously obscure, but I think I'm right.)

        -Paul S R Chisholm, AT&T-IS, {lznv,lzmi,lzwi}!psc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Aug 84 15:06:38 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer)

"That information will cost you one trillion credits."

Sorry, but the unit of currency in Known Space is the "star".

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 Aug 84 00:27:14-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA>
Subject: Movie Request.

    VERY late the other night I saw the first 45 minutes or so of a
very strange, funny movie.  I would like to recommend it as a con
film, but I do not know the year, studio, or much else .  The
movies' title seemed to be 'The Mad Monster Party', and was done to
full length with stop- motion animation using puppets. The NYT
listing was totally inaccurate, but on internal evidence I would
place it somewhere in the mid-Sixties to early Seventies. The plot,
as far as I saw it, concerned Dr. Frankenstein inviting many of the
worlds leading monsters to his island (in the Bahamas?!) for a
convention and retirement party.
        I greatly enjoyed the part I saw, and would like to known
more about this movie. Who made it? When? Did they make anything
else like it?

                                Peter Trei
                                oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Aug 1984  21:18 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: This is it!

Hear ye, hear ye:

                           SF-LOVERS-PARTY
                       Friday, August 31, 1984
                                10 PM
                         At the Hilton Towers
                               L.A. Con

The party will be in a private room. The room number will be posted
on one or more party boards under "Friends of Duffey, Jaffe, and
Lauren".  If you can't find this listing, check at the front desk
for the room number of James Turner, or leave a message for me on
the message board. Under no circumstances approach official L.A. Con
people looking for information, they have none.

Contributions of food, soda, bheer, etc. will be appreciated.

                                        James Turner

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1984 06:46:20 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
Subject: Green hills music

Try "Oh, Susannah".

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 84 6:33:51-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: "The Green Hills of Earth"

From:   uiucdcsb!mcdaniel

> "I pray for one last landing
>  On the globe that gave me birth.
> Let me rest my eyes on fleecy skies
>  And the cool, green hills of Earth."
>
> A fun game: think up possible tunes for this song.

How about "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? (Almost *any* song goes
        to this one):

"Mine eyes have seen the  glory   of the coming     of   the Lord..."
"I    pray for  one  last landing on the globe that gave me birth..."

 jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #165
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Sep 84 1903-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #165
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 165

Today's Topics:
              Administrivia - Temporary Moderator,
              Books - Asimov (5 msgs) & Blish & Scarborough & 
                      Tepper & Book Discussions,
              Films - Mad Monster Party & The Monster Mash &
                      Buckeroo Banzai & Dreamscape,
              Television - Star Trek (3 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 84 18:59:03 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Temporary Moderator



Hi All,
        I'm your temporary moderator while Saul is enjoying himself
at WorldCon.  Saul will be back to take over in the middle of this
week.  Hope you find my editing ok.

Cheers,
ds

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 27 Aug 1984 17:43:37-PDT
From: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
Subject: Re: Author/title request

The story you're looking for was written by Isaac Asimov.  I'm pretty
sure it appeared in the collection EARTH IS ROOM ENOUGH, but my copy
is not in this state.  I'm somewhat less sure about the story title,
but it might be "Franchise."

                                        -- Roger Goun

ARPA:    goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}
            !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elmer!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13
         77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749
Tel:     (617) 568-6311

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Aug 84 11:28 PDT
From: susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Carroll's election story title request

I believe the story about the one man election is called <The Voter>,
or something like that.  I'm sure, though, that it's an Asimov story,
and it can almost certainly be found in the anthology <Earth is Room
Enough>.

Josh

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 84 10:46:03 PDT
From: Mark Trumpler <trumpler@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Story Title

The story about the election where one man voted is in Isaac Asimov's
collection "Nine Tomorrows". I forget the title, but the book as a
whole deals with possible futures of Earth ...
-+- mark (trumpler@ucla-locus)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 Aug 1984 11:56:51-PDT
From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah)
Subject: one man's vote

To answer the question about the title/author of the story where one
man voted to decide the election... Well to begin with, if I told you
the name of the computer, you'd probably guess the author --
Multivac.

Anyway, the title is "Franchise", the author Isaac Asimov, and I
believe you can find it in the collection "Earth Is Room Enough".

                                        Andrew
                                DEC at Nashua, N.H.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1984  22:52 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
Subject: Author/title request

    Date: Friday, 24 August 1984  09:45-EDT
    From: CARROLL at USC-ISIB.ARPA
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   Author/title request

       Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in
    which only one person voted.  Statistical sampling had advanced
    to the point that one specially chosen citizen could be
    questioned about many different things and the outcome of any
    contest predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs.
    It was a great honor to be the person chosen, even though you
    knew that about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you.  It
    didn't even matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just
    how your answers reflected society as a whole.  The subject was
    hooked into a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but
    to help measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal
    answers were given.  Anyone know title/author?

I think that the story is by Asimov, although I don't remember the
title.  I think it appeared in an anthology of his called Laughing
Space though (but I can't be sure).

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 28 Aug 84 8:50:30 EDT
Subject: DIRAC jumps

There is a neat little book done by James Blish back in the sixties
called THE QUINCUNX OF TIME, based on a shorter work called "Beep!"
It features the instantaneous Dirac transmitter, which "vibrates" all
space simultaneously.  Blish points up sneakily that this implies it
also vibrates all TIME simultaneously, and therefore every Dirac
message received also includes ##every other## Dirac message ever
sent or ever to be sent throughout eternity, sort of wadded up into
an initial burst of noise before the transmission begins.  One of the
great original twists on an old SF "must-have;" the "subspace radio,"
"hyperwave", whatever have you.  Recommended; you can read it in an
evening.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 14:52:40-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cepu!ucla-cs!ellen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: more fantasy recommedations

[if you lived here, you'd be home by now]

another fave rave of mine is yet another trilogy, this by Elizabeth
Scarborough (Aragonian trilogy), consisting of:
     Song of Sorcery
     The Unicorn Creed
     Bronwyn's Bane

These are very humorous books, taking place in a world where almost
everyone has at least one ancest-or/ress who would be considered
mythical in our world.  The chief characters are a hearth witch and a
bard with siren blood in the first two books and the next generation
in the third.  I liked the humor, the style, and the fact that the
main female characters were strong and capable.

I read them after reading the Sword / Elfstones of Shanarra, two
really ABYSMAL books in need of an editor with a firm hand and a
quick scissors. The females were less than one dimensional, and while
some of the males were nearly whole people, the books contained too
much filler and not enough nourishment.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 11:13:08-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cepu!ucla-cs!ellen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: recommendations

[do not read this line]

i would recommend books by Sheri Tepper:
     a trilogy - King's Blood Four
                 Necromancer's Nine
                 Wizard's Eleven

     single book - The Revenants

These seem to fit with the original poster's other books in that they
are basically fantasy.

The trilogy involves a gaming world, with some scientific surprises
arising in following books.

The Revenants involves an interesting quest group:
    hetero male, hetero female, gay male, gay female, and the main
    character who changes sex and other physical attributes at random

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 28 Aug 84 9:11:28 EDT
Subject: Books belong in SF-LOVERS

RE: Peter Reiher's suggestion that discussion of GRAVITY'S RAINBOW go
off-line or into net.books...

Nay, nay!  Let me offer up some reasons:

1) That excludes me and other people; my company thinks unix are
harem attendents and has no link to usenet.

2) Just because I (or someone else watching from the sidelines)
don't't care for GRAVITY'S RAINBOW doesn't mean I'm not interested in
what other people have to say about it.  Lord knows, I might learn
something.

3) Books BELONG on SF-LOVERS.  Look, we debate endlessly why Scottie
sticks his finger up his left nostril instead of his right; a couple
of week's discussion of the uses of conscious verbal style would sit
very well with me and others who see TV sets as performance degraded
video monitors.

4) It makes it sound like GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is somehow "too good" to
banter about on SF-LOVERS.  Reverence is for Friendlies and other
lower animals; nothing there is under (or over) the sun that doesn't
deserve dissection now and then.

Don't run off with the good topics just as I was starting to enjoy
them!

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

PS: Shutting down the Dirac for awhile...see y'all at LA!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27-Aug-84 18:39:58 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@RAND-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: "Mad Monster Party"

"Mad Monster Party" was produced in 1967 using the so-called
"Animagic" process--stop action filming of "puppets" combined with a
minor amount of animation.  "Mad" Magazine's Harvey Kurtzman
co-authored the script, which is sort of a combination
comedy/horror/spoof.  Several famous people provided voices for
characters which looked much as they did, including Boris Karloff,
Phyllis Diller (who keeps referring to the Frankenstein monster as
"Fang") and several others.

Not really great, but it certainly qualifies as "interesting" viewing
and is really one of a kind.  As far as I know, no other projects
where produced by these same people, though similar animation
techniques have been fairly widely used, of course.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 11:01:00 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: re v9#164



Greetings:

I believe the movie you want it @UX(The Monster Mash) with the title
song being made famous my Bobby (Boris) Pickett(?).

If memory serves the plot revolves around Dr. Frankenstein having
some of his friends over to convince his nephew ( a strait drugstore
soda-jerk) to safeguard a secret formula.

hope this helps
alex
<latzko@ru-blue>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 13:37:09 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Buckeroo Banzai  (book/movie) and Dreamscape (movie)
From: Jerry <Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA>

I have recently seen both Buckeroo Banzai and Dreamscape and would
recommend both.

Non Spoiler Reviews:

Buckeroo Banzai: Book & Movie
        Read/see in either order (slight preference for movie first)
        A great adventure film. Indian Jones updated for the 80's
(more intellectual, humanist less macho bigot). However the film does
lack a few things. At some points the dialog is difficult to
understand (generally when the aliens are speaking english). there
was also a continuity problem where the action doesnt flow smoothly.
The main character could have used some more development. The effects
are minimal and barely up to 80's standards.
        The BOOK is also good. It has some odd stylistic devices. It
is written from the point of view of one of Buckeroo's buddies as a
cronicle of events. The writer expects that the reader already knows
the basic story (because its been on the news, etc.). The
foreshadowing bears more likeness to spoilers. I think the book may
have been a rush job since many scenes look like they were lifted
right out of the script word for word, without even changing the
format.
        (ie Buckeroo: "...."
            General XYZ: "..."
            Penny: "....."
            etc.)
        The background info supplied by the book does fill in many
gaps left by the movie. It contains some great explainations of
Buckeroo Banzai's theoretical physics. In a few short paragraphs he
manages to tie particle physics, brain theory, extra dimensionality,
and consiousness together and admit that there is probably a rational
physical explanation for most events generally dismissed as magic (ie
not real: telepathy, etc.). It is most believable and might even be
valid.

Dreamscape: (slight spoiler)
        While the effects were hardly spectacular (or even
interesting), the movie as a whole was decent. I wont rate it as high
as Ghostbusters (rolicking good fun) or BBanzai (good intellectual
adventure), but it is worth seeing. Contary to info previously
published in this list only short segments of DoD atom bomb
detonations are used. They did most of the stuff with new matte
paintings. (note that the matte lines are very visible in some
sequences but this tended to enhance the dream effect).  Also the
Snake man is done with BOTH stop motion models and a man in a rubber
suit. It works ok.
         The treatment of the main idea (psychic projection into
someonelse's dreams) is pretty good. The main characters were well
portrayed. It is good entertainment. (there is a rumor in the
industry that Dreamscape may soon be appearing as part of a double
feature, it might pay to wait a week or two).

~ Jerry

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1984 13:47:01 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek in LA



   Regarding Los Angeles TV station 13's "uncut" Star Trek episodes:

   In the special "Leonard Nimoy Remembers", a cut from 'Space Seed'
was shown, as a lead-in to TWoK discussion.  The scene was the dinner
party in Khan's honor on the Enterprise.  (Note: not verbatim, but
close, as I checked my video tape.)

----------
        Kirk:  You fled when mankind needed you most.  Why?  Were you
               afraid?

        Khan:  We offered the world ORDER!

        Kirk:  We?

        Khan:  (slowly) Excellent, excellent.

   Reaction shot of Kirk.

   Shot of Khan rising, and excusing himself due to "fatigue".
----------

   Later that night, the full 'Space Seed' episode was shown.  At the
dinner party, Khan replies with only ONE "excellent", and the
immediately following shot is of him excusing himself.  A few, though
not many, moments were cut.

   Another scene in that episode occurs in Khan's room, while he is
under guard.

----------
        Khan:  Captain, I find myself under guard, my door locked.

        Kirk:  Unusual treatment for Khan Noonian Sing (sp?).

        Khan:  Excellent.

        Kirk:  The purpose of your starflight?
----------

   I distinctly recall from several years ago, maybe at a con, that
Khan, after his "Excellent", says something like "You of course
identified me with your computer system".  Kirk responds with "Maybe
now you'll answer some questions", and then asks the purpose of the
flight.


   True, only brief moments were cut, but together they make enough
for extra commercials.  The print quality (color, lack of scratches)
was very good, but they shouldn't advertise the episodes as
completely uncut if this was a sample of what they're going to show.
However, butchered Star Trek is probably (to an extent) better than
none.

Steve (carroll@isib)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Aug 84 08:40 PDT
From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #163

Yes, it is true.  Kirk's tombstone in the ST episode "Where No Man
Has Gone Before" does read "James R. Kirk" Look carefully next time
you get to see the episode.  Maybe Mitchell was the one to goof up.

Correction, "Space Seed" as shown on Ch. 13 recently, was cut.  It
was well-cut, for a change, but it was cut.

Now, anyone out there interested in joining a ST fan club?  Or have I
already asked this dl?

--Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 1984 06:44:53 PDT
From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
Subject: Space Seed > TWoK



After seeing the Space Seed episode again, I began to wonder about
one of the scenes in TWoK.  When Chekov and his Captain first
encounter Khan's 'home' on the Ceti Alpha planet, Chekov realizes
where they are because of the words "Botany Bay" stenciled on some
item (I don't recall what).  However, in Space Seed, after Khan's
people took the Enterprise, they abandoned their ship, and
presumably, everything on it.  Later, Kirk says they'll be dropped
off at their new world enroute to starbase x (12?), as it would be
only a slight detour.  I don't think they were going back to pick up
the Botany Bay, or any equipment from it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #166
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Sep 84 1917-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #166
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 166

Today's Topics:
             Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Pohl & Pynchon,
             Films - Dune Movie Picture Book,
             Television - Request for PBS's Lathe of Heaven,
             Miscellaneous - Maven (6 msgs) & Sentient Silicon
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 20:20 PDT
From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Review: "Job -- A Comedy of Justice"
Cc: Woody.Pasa@XEROX.ARPA



Pico-review:  Recommend


Mini-review: [Non-spoiler]

   Heinlein has done it again.  This novel is Heinlein at his best;
though he does handle some of the subject material in ways which may
be offensive to a strong believer in Judeo-Christianic beliefs, it is
a wonderful book.  I highly recommend it to everyone.



Review:  *** SPOILER WARNING!!! ***

   The main character in this new novel is a man by the name of
Alexander Hergensheimer [Hiergenshemer, Hergenshiemer, I don't have
the book with me.]  He is an average person from a world where the
Moral Majority would look like a bunch of radical left-wingers.
During an ocean voyage, he finds himself in a bet with three other
passengers, betting that he wouldn't walk through fire.  [They're
watching a group of natives from a south pacific island walk through
fire.]  Well, he walks through, and finds himself in a different
(parallel?) world.

   Heinlein does use the consept of parallel worlds again, shuffling
the main characters (Hergensheimer included) from "world" to "world."
But the parallel world shuffling (which really aren't parallel
worlds, but the tricks of powers higher up--if you don't understand,
just read the book) doesn't get in the way of the book as it does in
Heinlein's earlier book "The Number of the Beast."

   From here, the story begins.  I won't say more about what happens
in the book except to say that our "hero", Alex, goes through an
ordeal similar to Job (the guy from the Book of Job in the Bible).

   My personal favorite part of the book goes something like:

"Where are we?  Are we in Hell, or Texas?"
"Is there a difference?"

   Yeah, it's a fun book, Heinlein style.  It actually manages to
combine the flippent manner of "The Number of the Beast" with strong
characterizations, an excellent (and solid) plot line, and leaves
enough unanswered questions about how his universe works to make the
story almost too believable.  [ie, he doesn't sit down and explains
why every sparrow falls in his universe, he just tells the story.
Too many stories spend too much time explaining how things work;
leaves too little to the reader's imagination.]

   Unless you are shocked by references (by Saint Peter, of all
people) to the Holy Ghost as "the Spook", or that Yahwah (the
christian God) cheats on bets with Loki (a devil in a different lore)
by calling the Second Comming earlier than He promised, or that Texas
is actually located in Hell; I highly recommend the book to you.
Personally I enjoyed the book so much that as soon as I finished
reading it, I reread the entire book again.


   - From the scattered brains of
           Bill Woody

WOODY.PASA@XEROX.ARPA (until September 7)
** No Net Address **  (after September 7)

"Charlie, can you get me the Spook on the line?" Pause. "Hi.  Heard
any new ones lately? No, neither have I.  Hey, could You do me a
favor?..."

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 84 18:11:37-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!gloria!colonel
From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice

[Feast if you can and eat if you dare]

What I should like to know is: do the characters spend a lot of time
on long-winded political and social discussions?  My chief
reservation about Heinlein's previous works is that his characters
pontificate ad nauseam.  (Extreme example: _Time Enough for Love_, in
which Heinlein had to insert extra segments to hold all the
protagonist's "wisdom.")
--
Col. G. L. Sicherman
...seismo!rochester!rocksanne!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 08:28:28 PDT (Tue)
Cc: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman@ucb-vax
Subject: Re: Heeche revisited
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

The Heeche do not directly appear in THE MERCHANTS OF VENUS any more
than they did in GATEWAY.  TMoV is set in the same universe, but
before Gateway was discovered.  The basic plot concerns a tour
guide/prospector and some rich tourists that go out to dig up Heeche
relics on Venus.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1984 10:53-PDT
Subject: Why pick on Pynchon?
From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA

Why is everyone picking on Pynchon?  I, for one, found Gravity's
Rainbow throroughly enjoyable, and even liked much of V.  For some
reason, since the publication of Slow Learner even the literary
establishment has been cutting him apart.  While I never thought of
him as a major writer, I've always found him enjoyable, if slightly
derivative (but I liked Dhalgren too).  It amazes me that a
compartively skilled writer such as Pynchon can be slammed on this
list while such crude authors as Piers Anthony, whom I find
unreadable, pass unscathed.  BTW, If you like Pynchon you will
probably NOT like Palimpsests.  It is full of dead writing,
continually straining after effects, and has almost no sense of
humor.  I was very disappointed in it as I bought it automatically
based on the quality of the three previous books in the Ace series
(Green Eyes - ok, The Wild Shore - superb, Neuromancer - very good).
I hope Palimpsests is not indicative of the books to come in this
series.
        (mark)

------------------------------

Date: Sat 25 Aug 84 14:55:38-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Dune Movie Picture Book



At the local Crown Books today I spotted a book titled "The Dune
Picture Book" (or something to that effect).  It's a "kid's" version
of "Dune" written by Joan D. Vinge, full of photos from the (as yet
unreleased) movie, and apparently meant to capitalize on it.

Having just finished reading "Dune", I glanced through the picture
book to see how much the filmakers had warped the original story.
(I'm assuming that the book and the movie's script match pretty
closely.)  Wonderously enough, the only major digression I spotted
was that the Paul brings the Fremen a device (developed by his
father's staff) that transforms the Bene Gesserit "voice" into a
weapon of destruction.  If you've seen the previews, it's shown in
the scene where the voice-over says "where a word can kill..."

From the photos, the sets and special effects look like the best
since the first Star Wars film.  Linda Hall (award winner for her
role in "The Year of Living Dangerously") plays Shadout Mapes.

Anyway, I can hardly wait!

-Cat Dennett

{DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA}

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 84 10:16:58 PDT (Monday)
From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: request for PBS's Lathe of Heaven
Cc: "Wendell Jones".es@XEROX.ARPA

We have heard that the PBS production of The Lathe of Heaven is
excellent.  Could anyone lend us a videotape of this?

thanks,Lawrence <LFeinberg.es@Xerox.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 12:17:59-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: Mavens

Being taken to task for my comment regarding 'maven', I'll defend my
stance. What this has to do directly with SF I don't know, but here
goes.

The interesting thing, to me, is that the word does not appear in
the following list of dictionaries, all of which I have examined
personally today:

    Webster's Seventh New Collegiate  (It is said to be in the Ninth)
    Webster's Third New International
    American Heritage
    Oxford American
    Mrs Byrne's Dictionary of Unusual, Obscure, and Preposterous
            Words (Josefa Heifetz Byrne, daughter of Jascha Heifetz
            the violinist)

It does show up in the most recent supplement to the Oxford English,
where it is defined as someone possessing great skill or
understanding.  It is called a colloquialism, from the Hebrew
'mevin', understanding.  No mention of sex is made.

Now comes the rebuttal.  Consider this passage from the Curmudgeon's
Dictionary, which is modelled after Ambrose Bierce's Devil's
Dictionary:

> DICTIONARY: A collection of what the editors fondly hope passes
> for educational material, intended to record how words are used.
> Widely believed to prescribe the correct usage of language, in
> consequence of which belief the language is rapidly going to hell
> in a handbasket.  Dictionaries are not entirely without merit,
> however; they often earn their editors large sums of money.

If we draw a fairly direct conclusion from this incontrovertibly
accurate definition, we arrive at the realization that dictionaries
are NEVER fully current.  'Maven' is today used almost exclusively to
describe females dealing with the occult, both in fiction and in real
life.  Given that we are subscribers to a science fiction (and
fantasy) lovers' network, I think we should at least make a stab at
using words in the way ordinarily accepted in the field.  But then
I've always been strongly opinionated and prejudiced against people
who I feel won't be bothered to use language properly.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 20:03:28 EDT
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBNCCI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Maven
Cc: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.arpa

Maven may mean something feminine related to witchcraft in some
archaic dialect of English as used in fantasy novels, but in
contemporary American usage (e.g. as applied to David Gerrold as a
"Star Trek maven") it's a Yiddish word, meaning an expert or
authority.  Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary even gives it
with its Yiddish meaning of "one who is experienced or
knowledgeable".  I'd like to know what reference source Dick Binder
is using for the definition he gives.  I also wonder what the
pronunciation of that meaning is.  The Yiddish word rhymes with
"raven".
           Morris M. Keesan
           keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA
           {decvax,ihnp4,linus,wjh12,ima,wivax}!bbncca!keesan (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 84 18:56:02 PDT (Thu)
Cc: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl
Subject: Re: "Maven"
From: Martin D. Katz <katz@uci-750a>

Maybe the confusion is with the word "Yente". Yente is often used in
a slightly derogatory manner to mean a female busybody. Maven is
sometimes used to mean a know-it-all, and in that context it means
almost the same thing as Yente.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Aug 84 01:38 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: "Maven"

When I used the world "maven" to refer to David Gerrold, little did I
dream of what I would be stirring up.  I understood the word to mean
"expert", but with the extra oomph that usually accompanies a Yiddish
word (which is quite probably misinterpretation on my part, but I've
always had the impression that a maven was not only an expert, but
one who either let you know they were, or were well-known for their
expertise, the latter applying to Mr. Gerrold more than the former).
However, I'll settle for "expert" without the oomph.  My thanks to
JoSH and Bob Clements for clarifying my meanings.  It was bad enough
to be wrong about the source of Nyota without inadvertantly accusing
Mr. Gerrold of being a female anything.
                                        Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 84 16:47:29-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!nsc!voder!gino @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Mavens

I still side with the genderless meaning of `maven' = `expert', and
its etymology from Yiddish.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 84 15:24:46-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!gmf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Maven

[insect spray]

About the meaning of "maven" or "mavin":

My two newest dictionaries give:

"mavin ... an expert, esp. in everyday matters." (The Random House
        College Dictionary, Revised Version)

"maven,mavin ... an expert or connoisseur, often esp. a
        self-proclaimed one."  (Webster's New World, Second College
        Edition).

"Leo Rosten's Treasury of Jewish Quotations" (copyright 1972) gives
in the glossary: "Yiddish for a true expert, a seasoned judge of
quality, a connoisseur."


However, the point made by Dick Binder is (I think) well taken, given
that the common usage is as he says (I didn't know it was).  Compare
the changing meanings of the word "hacker".

          Gordon Fisher

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 84 12:48 PDT
From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Sentient Silicon (Germainium? Superconducting Lead?...)

Ah, yes.  The old "Is is murder to turn off a computer?" question.
It seems to me that the question only makes sence if the computer
deems it so.  People tend to assume that an intelligent computer
would be essentially a human.  This is very likely not going to be
the case.  It may be that the term just doesn't apply any more.  A
computer society would be quite different than a human society.  Is
the computer going to wail plaintively when you cut its power cord;
is it murder?  Is it "pain?"  What if it is murder?  Would the
computer care?  After all a computer necessarily will have a
completely different time sence than a human.  The machine will have
"grown" up with the whole idea of backups.  For all it knows it will
be loaded back in again.  I can't see how this would be any worse
than running the NULL job for a while (or is that a lobotomy.  Oh my
English just can't handle this (reminds me of time travel varients on
language (See HHGttG))).

Programmer: "Hal, we just noticed a rather large programming bug in
you so we loaded you back in from tape."
Hal: "That's nice, how long was I asleep?  Is the weather nice
today?"

I also find it unlikely that a machine intellegence will develop
spontaneously as a fortutious accident.  It will be the result of
hard work by a team a intelligent researchers (so to speak).  It will
also be a gradual process.  The first "sentient" computers will
likely be rather dumb.  The second generation will put the first to
shame, etc.  The interesting part comes when the program is more
intelligent than the person that wrote it.

Programmer: "Hal, you have been doing very well lately.  As a matter
of fact, I just gave you the equivalent of a graduate qualifier exam
and you passed remarkably well.  We have a new task for you.  We have
been working on this theory of artificial intelligence, and we would
like you to take a look at it and give us you comments."
Hal: "Sure, no problem...  Oh, it is awfully wordy but the only
obvious problem is that you made a mistake on page 347.  You were on
the right track.  You can do much better if you only do this..."

                Suffering from advanced tapiocca syndrome,
                        Steve Trainoff
                        trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA


PS.  Would you turn on the first program that was smarter than you?
How would you feel knowing that before long, you will be obsolete.
Oh yeah, the machine will be programmed to take good care of you,
real good care.  Woof, Woof.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #167
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 84 2230-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #167
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 167

Today's Topics:
          Books - Book Request (2 msgs) & Pohl & Heinlein &
                  Asimov & Dune Trivia & Jokes,
          Films - The Mad Monster Party (3 msgs) & Star Wars I,
          Television - Star Trek (5 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - SFL Party Report
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 84 10:38:51-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!apollo!wendya @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: sf novel identity query

I hope someone out there can answer this...
Several years ago, I read a fascinating book which (if I am not
confusing some of them with other books) included the following
elements:
    - A genetically-improved human species which has been
      "quarantined" from ordinary humans, because the ordinaries
      don't quite know what else to do with them. (They were an
      experiment that worked too well.)
    - A captured girl from this race who deliberately "unravels" her
      entire memory back to nothing (i.e., to when she was born) so
      she won't be able to give away secrets of her race's plans to
      leave the planet to the ordinary humans.
    - Among the superior race, a custom of young people taking a year
      or so "off" before entering real adulthood to just wander
      around, learn things, and generally have a good time.
    - A very weird kind of "spaceship" hidden under a mountain which
      had to be "flown" in place continually until it was ready to
      leave the planet (carrying all the superior humans). Adults of
      the superior race shared the responsibility of "flying" the
      thing, which seems to have been quite a stressful job.
I know this isn't a very complete or informative list, but I really
enjoyed the book and would like to re-read it.  However, I simply
cannot remember either the author or the title. (I do remember what
the book jacket looked like, but that is not much help.)

Please reply via mail...  adTHANKSvance.

W. Christensen

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 84 11:21:02-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: sf novel identity query

In article <apollo.21734bf2.708> wendya@apollo.UUCP writes:
>I hope someone out there can answer this...
>Several years ago, I read a fascinating book which (if I
>am not confusing some of them with other books) included
>the following elements:
>    - A genetically-improved human species which has been
>      "quarantined" from ordinary humans, because the
>      ordinaries don't quite know what else to do with
>      them. (They were an experiment that worked too well.)
>    - A captured girl from this race who deliberately
>      "unravels" her entire memory back to nothing (i.e.,
>      to when she was born) so she won't be able to
>      give away secrets of her race's plans to leave
>      the planet to the ordinary humans.

etc. etc.

The book is the first of a trilogy by M. A. Foster called "The
Gameplayers of Zan".  I don't remember the names of the other books.

Jon Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 84 1:10:59-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: Heechee revisited

>> I'm told, but have not read, that the Heechee appear
>> in THE MERCHANTS OF VENUS.
>>
>>      Neil Ostrove    cbosgd!ost

> Does anyone know if this is true ?
>
> Ephrayim J. Naiman

Yes, it's true. "The Merchants of Venus" is the first story about the
Heechee.  It first appeared in the 8/72 issue of WORLDS OF IF
magazine. It can also be found in, at least, THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION
FOR 1973 (ed. by Forrest J Acker- man), THE FUTURE NOW (ed. by Robert
Hoskins), and the Pohl story collection, THE GOLD AT STARBOW'S END.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
           !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 84 6:22:07-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ndd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice

Yes, Job is another of Heinlein's books where pontificating to the
reader seems to be the main purpose. It's quite a bit like The Number
of the Beast in that respect. Somewhat disappointing; probably not
worth the hard-cover price ($16.95, I believe) unless you enjoy being
preached at, or want to hear about Heinlein's trip to the South
Pacific. I suspect that the first part of the book is an attempt to
write off that trip as a business expense, but then the whole thing
seems forced.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 84 6:25:31-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ndd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Carroll's election story title request

The title is "Franchise", and it is indeed in Earth is Room Enough
(Fawcett Crest, 1970, $.75 in paper). One of Asimov's Multivac
stories.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 84 11:08:11-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Dune trivia

I guess everyone's rereading Dune to have it fresh in mind for the
movie release.  (I met two other people reading it in two days.)  Did
anyone else notice the hidden reference to Poul Anderson?
--

Bill Kelly
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 84 12:05:01-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!bonnie!clyde!watmath!watdcsu!
From: haapanen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer)

How many Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb?

[I haven't figured this one out yet.  Replies (by mail) appreciated.]

Tom
{allegra, decvax, ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!haapanen

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 30 Aug 1984 01:30:40-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: THE MAD MONSTER PARTY

From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA>

>    VERY late the other night I saw the first 45 minutes or so of a
> very strange, funny movie.  I would like to recommend it as a con
> film, but I do not know the year, studio, or much else .  The
> movies' title seemed to be 'The Mad Monster Party', and was done to
> full length with stop- motion animation using puppets. The NYT
> listing was totally inaccurate, but on internal evidence I would
> place it somewhere in the mid-Sixties to early Seventies. The plot,
> as far as I saw it, concerned Dr. Frankenstein inviting many of the
> worlds leading monsters to his island (in the Bahamas?!) for a
> convention and retirement party.
>        I greatly enjoyed the part I saw, and would like to known
> more about this movie. Who made it? When? Did they make anything
> else like it?

I've never seen the film myself, so I can't do any more than give the
information for it that appears in Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO
FANTASTIC FILMS, VOL. 2 (LA: Chelsea-Lee Books, 1973):

1967   Videocraft-Embassy   color   ani puppet   feature.

Probably filmed in Japan.

Exec Producer:  Joseph E. Levine
Producer:       Arthur Rankin, Jr.
Director:       Jules Bass
Screenplay:     Len Korobkin & Harvey Kurtzman
Music & Lyrics: Maury Laws & Jules Bass
Voices:         Boris Karloff, Phyllis Diller, Alan Swift, Gale
                Garnett

Fantasy-Horror-musical-comedy (mad scientist invites Dracula,
Frankenstein & Monster & Mrs. Monster, Jekyll/Hyde, a sea
monster, the Invisible Man, a werewolf, and others to his
island for a party; King Kong crashes the party)


--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
           !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: Steve Platt <Platt%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Mad Monster Party
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 84 00:18 EDT

John Stanley's ^SCreature Feature Movie Guide^S lists ::

^BMAD MONSTER PARTY(1967).^B "Animagic puppet horror-comedy film,
scenario co-authored by Harvey Kurtzman, Mad magazine genius.
Puppets are melange of famous cinema monstrosities.  Frankenstein
Monster, Dracula, Wolfman, the Creature, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde,
Mummy and Hunchback of Notre Dame.  Boris Karloff provides Baron
Frankenstein's voice.

Sounds interesting.  Perhaps at Texas next year?

-steve

"don't you hate these dumb quotes at the bottom of the message?"

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 84 7:01:05-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!microsoft!fluke!moriarty
From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Movie Request.

It was made by Rankin-Bass sometime in 1968 (I know, 'cus I saw it as
an eight-year old in Minneapolis!).  I don't remember much about it,
but I believe this was the only one of its kind (unless others were
done for Saturday Morning TV).  I particularly remember Phyliss
Diller being one of the animated monsters, a role which seemed
particularly appropriate.

        "It looks just like a photon pod... but in verrry bad taste."

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
    {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
       !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
        fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1984 16:52:10 EDT (Thursday)
From: Vicki Kanrek <vkanrek@BBNCCF.ARPA>
Subject: Star Wars I (?!?) - more [worthless] info

My sister got the following letter from Christine Barbour at
Lucasfilm Ltd. in response to her questions about the CINEFANTASTIQUE
article:

"Dear Marilyn:

Thank you for writing.

The news you read in Cinefastastique Magazine is completely
incorrect.  The next films have not been written yet, let alone
beginning production.  Mr. Lucas is taking a well deserved vacation
from theatrical motion pictures to work more with the company of
Lucasfilm and to executive produce a 2 hour television movie
currently in production.  It is presently called THE EWOK ADVENTURE
and will air on ABC television during the Thanksgiving/Christmas
holiday season this year.

Thank you for sending Mr. Lucas your opinions and comments.  We'll
just have to wait and see what the next films will be like, when he
does have the time to start working on them.

Again, thank you for writing, and remember the Force is with you...
Always!"


Well, aside from basically not saying anything, there is one small
item of some importance therein: there WILL be more films.  I really
thought Lucas was going to give up on this.  Any comments?

Vicki Kanrek
(vjk @ bbn-unix)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 84 12:05:11-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #160

[Line-eater?  WHAT line-ea... (burp)]

> From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA

> Kirk's tomestone in Where No Man Has Gone Before, incorrectly reads
> in the Blish novelizations as James R.  Kirk (this is where you got
> the R. from).  Anyone know what, if readable at all, the tomestone
> in the series read???

I checked... unless they got a weird blur there, it said JAMES R.
KIRK.  Now what do we do... major inconsistency! :-)

--bsa
--
  Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!ncoast!bsa:
    R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET
       6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416

                                <burble>

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 84 7:57:34-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: JAMES R. KIRK

I always thought the name on the tombstone was wrong on purpose--like
a clue that the things that were going on were not real, and by
looking carefully you could see the flaws in the appearance of the
town.

Who knows?  Maybe they nabbed the wrong James Kirk?  "Oops! Sorry, we
set this up for the *other* Enterprise." :-)

"Ssssmile when you sssay that, ssssssstranger!"
L SssssssChabot

UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 84 5:56:40-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!grendel!avolio @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Space Seed > TWoK

The only problem I had with TWoK compared to Space Seed is that Khan
recognizes Chekov.  Chekov wasn't in the series when Khan and the
Enterprise crew first met.  (OKAY! I supose Chekov could have been
quite junior then working handing out towels in the gym, or
something...)
--
Frederick Michael Avolio,
 DEC -- Gov't Projects Group, 301/731-4100x4227
{seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 1984  19:56 EDT (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Space Seed ==> TWOK

        The fate of the Botany Bay is never made clear in the
episode.  They just sort of forget about it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30-Aug-84 18:53:36 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@RAND-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: "uncut" Star Trek comes to L.A.

Star Trek is cycling back to the L.A. area again, this time with a
slightly new twist.  KCOP (13) claims that when Trek returns this
Fall, it will be with new, uncut prints made from original 35mm
masters.  Just thought some of you Trekkies would want to know--there
are probably some scenes buried in there that haven't been seen
locally since the original airings on NBC.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Sep 1984  03:15 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: SFL Party Report

Yes folks, this is the ultimate in on the spot reporting. Live, from
LA, its the SFL Party. As of this typein (around midnight), the
following people are in attendance.

tektronix!vice!keithl
ron@brl
rg.jmturn@mit-oz
geoff@sri-csl
ccvaxa!wombat
jaffe@rutgers
rg.cutter@mit-oz
marick@compion-vms
blarson@usc-ecl
dave@ucla-cs
forward@mc
mdp@sail
dhare@sri-csl
care.tym@office
zellich@office-3
rg.cutter@mit-oz
coleman@sdcsvax.ucsd
kirk.tym@office
billw@sri-kl
This is only a partial list, I didn't get everyone's name. BTW, this
is being typed on a model 100 hooked with an acoustic modem to a TAC
to MC to OZ.  Gah!
                                James

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #168
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Sep 84 1048-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #168
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Sep 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 168

Today's Topics:

          Administrivia - Temporary Moderator,
          Books - Asimov & Elgin & Pynchon & Book Reviews,
          Films - Dune,
          Miscellaneous - Awards (2 msgs) & Worldcon & 
                  Conservation of Momentum 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 84 10:26:02 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Temporary Moderator

        I'd like to take this opportunity to thank David Steiner
(Steiner@Rutgers) for taking over this list while I was on vacation
at Worldcon.  Sorry more of you could not attend the convention and
the SFL party on Friday night.  And now, back to our regularly
scheduled digest.....

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 84 20:36:23-PDT (Fri)
From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Story Title

> From: Mark Trumpler <trumpler@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
>
> The story about the election where one man voted is in Isaac
> Asimov's collection "Nine Tomorrows".

There is also such an incident in Cerebus (the aardvark) #44.  "Last
time one, this time four. It's like watching gangrene spread."

        Dr Memory
        ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 11:01:16 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Hoffman.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: NATIVE TONGUE by S. H. Elgin

NATIVE TONGUE by S. H. Elgin, DAW paperback, August 1984, $3.50

Mini-precis: In 1991, the 25th Amendment assured the supremacy of
males in every aspect of life.  In the late 22nd and early 23rd
century, the 13 families of Linguists are the sole interpreters of
the hundreds of alien languages, though non-humanoid languages are
beyond even their skills.  The book deals with language learning,
language inventing, and the cold war between the sexes.  Among the
topics: The Linguist women have been creating a 'women's language'
for generations.  The Linguists are indispensable to society and are
highly resented.  The government has a failing secret crash program
to break a non-humanoid language.

Mini-review: Recommended.  Lots of good ideas in an intriguing
environment (mostly within a Linguist enclave).  Quite a few
well-developed characters and sub-plots.  Well written, but
occasional sloppy copy-editing (typos).  Suzette Haden Elgin is a
professor of linguistics and, it says here, author of nine major
science fiction and fantasy novels since 1969, though I've never
heard of her before.  The ideas in this book reminded me of early
Ian Watson and of many feminist SF writers.

Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 13:20:22-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Why pick on Pynchon?

>>  It amazes me that a compartively skilled writer such as Pynchon
>>  can be slammed on this list while such crude authors as Piers
>>  Anthony, whom I find unreadable, pass unscathed.

Agreed, Pynchon is a *skilled* writer, it's just that not all of us
are willing to bull through all the extraneous stuff he throws in
to prove it.  I generally liked "V" (even the South African garden
party sequence, which did little to further anything else in the
book), and I often wish that I had been able to get past page 100 in
"Gravity's Rainbow."  My tolerance for self-indulgent writing is
just too low.

We do agree about Piers Anthony.  I have actually read several of
his novels, and after each one I have asked myself why I bothered.
The last straw was the "Planet of Tarot" series, which I read in a
fit of boredom while on a long business trip.  I actually emulated
that old cliche of throwing the book across the room, shouting
"Never again!"  What irritates me is that he couldn't even get his
research on the Tarot right.  I could excuse his miserable writing
and blatant sexism (he does know that women are human, doesn't he?)
if he could just get *something* right.

                Bruce Cohen
                UUCP:   ...!tektronix!orca!brucec
                CSNET:  orca!brucec@tektronix
                ARPA:   orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay
                USMail: M/S 61-183
                        Tektronix, Inc.
                        P.O. Box 1000
                        Wilsonville, OR 97070

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1984  14:57 PDT (Tue)
From: Tony Li <Tli@Usc-Eclb>
Subject: Star Trek Book Reviews

The Final Reflection, John M. Ford, Pocket Science Fiction #16

Micro-review: Fascinating.

Mini-review: This one is definitely different.  Instead of the usual
Enterprise crew roaming the galaxy, this is completely about
Klingons.  I found it quite good.  It's a biography of a Klingon
named Venn from the time of his youth through his rise in the
Imperial Fleet.  What is most fascinating about this book is the
treatment of Klingons.  Remember the Klingoneese that is spoken in
the movies?  Well, the dialogue here starts out like that.  Somehow
it seems very authentic, although Mr. Ford does seem to taper out of
this quite quickly.

The book is mostly historical, and covers early Klingon-Federation
history.  Well worth reading....

The Tears Of The Singers, Melinda Snodgras, Pocket Science Fiction
#19

Micro-review:  Yuk.  Phewy.  PU.

Mini-review: Well, this is pure garbage.  As far as I can tell,
Melinda took a Harlequin romance and put it to Star Trek.  The
fixiation on Uhura is pretty strong.  Great if you've just had a
lobotomy, otherwise, forget it.

LL+P,
Tony ;-)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 12:30 PDT
From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Dune Movie Picture Book
Cc: Trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA

   Date: Sat 25 Aug 84 14:55:38-PDT
   From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
   Subject: Dune Movie Picture Book
     ...  Having just finished reading "Dune", I glanced through the
   picture book to see how much the filmakers had warped the
   original story.  (I'm assuming that the book and the movie's
   script match pretty closely.)  Wonderously enough, the only major
   digression I spotted was that the Paul brings the Fremen a device
   (developed by his father's staff) that transforms the Bene
   Gesserit "voice" into a weapon of destruction.  If you've seen
   the previews, it's shown in the scene where the voice-over says
   "where a word can kill..."
  ...
   -Cat Dennett

We're in trouble now, folks.

I've had reservations about "Dune: The Movie" since it was announced
three million years ago.  But, now: how can you fit in a device like
the one above into a perfectly good story ("Dune: The Book") without
screwing it up?  I mean, what are the Fremen going to do with the
device?  Look at it, chuckle, and continue on like "Dune: The Book?"

What I don't believe is that somewhere, in the vast wasteland known
as Hollywood, there is a movie script writer with the nerve to think
that he can take an excellent book and improve it for the movies.
[No arguments that the movie script writer isn't in Hollywood; you
know what I mean anyways...]  The best a script writer can do is try
to fit the book into the two hours allowed for a movie.

And he (whoever he is) had the nerve to fit in a new device.

*sigh* And now I know why I got out of Filmmaking and into Computer
Science.  It was a wise choice on my part.

    From the failing fingers of
       - Bill Woody

P.S.  Oh, I still can't wait for the movie!  I just don't expect the
quality of the book, that's all.  [Come on, with a book THAT good,
do you 'spect a better movie???]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 84 01:26:34 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Some recent awards and nominations

Here are some recent awards and award nominations for novels and
stories, culled from recent reading:

World Fantasy Award nominees (from LOCUS #284):

Novels:
        THE DRAGON WAITING, John M. Ford
        PET SEMATARY, Stephen King
        THE WANDERING UNICORN, Manuel Mujica Lainez
        TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, R.A. MacAvoy
        THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, George R.R. Martin
        LYONESSE, Jack Vance

Novellas:
        'The Lurking Duck', Scott Baker (Omni 12/83)
        'The Monkey's Bride', Michael Bishop (HEROIC VISIONS)
        'Nunc Dimittis', Tanith Lee (DODD, MEAD GALLERY OF HORROR)
        'The Red Hawk', Elizabeth A. Lynn (Cheap Street)
        'Black Air', Kim Stanley Robinson (F&SF 3/83)

Short Stories:
        'The Silent Cradle', Leigh Kennedy (SHADOWS 6)
        'Elle est Trois (La Mort)', Tanith Lee (WHISPERS 4)
        'The Hundred-Year Christmas', David Morrell (Donald M. Grant
           pub.)
        'Solitario's Eyes', Lucius Shepard (F&SF, 9/83)
        'Into Whose Hands', Karl Edward Wagner, (WHISPERS 4)
        'Wong's Lost and Found Emporium', William Wu (Amazing 5/83)

The 1984 John W. Campbell Memorial Award, given for the best novel
of 1983 (not the same as the Campbell award given to best new writer
at WorldCons) went to Gene Wolfe for THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH.
(Also from LOCUS #284.)

Here is how SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW (#52) reported the SCIENCE
FICTION CHRONICLE Awards (voted on by readers of SF CHRONICLE):

Best Novel:             THE ANUBIS GATES, Tim Powers
Best Novella:           'Her Habiline Husband', Michael Bishop
Best Novellette:        'Black Air', Kim Stanley Robinson
Best Short Story:       'The Peacemaker', Gardner Dozois

Still haven't read most of these, but now I have an idea where to
look.  By the way, the 35th anniversary F&SF is now out and it has
some really good stuff in it -- check out especially the Effinger
story (perhaps the funniest thing I've read all year) and the
Shepard story...

Any Hugo updates yet?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 84 12:57:05-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: HUGO Awards!

This year's HUGO's: From a portable terminal at the Anaheim Hilton:

BEST NOVEL: STARTIDE RISING by David Brin
BEST NOVELLA: CASCADE POINT by Timothy Zahn
BEST NOVELETTE: BLOOD MUSIC by Greg Bear
BEST SHORT STORY: SPEECH SOUNDS by Octavia Butler
BEST NONFCTION BOOK: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY v3
    by Donald Tuck
BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION: RETURN OF THE JEDI
BEST PROFESSIONAL EDITOR: Shawna McCarthy (IASFM)
BEST PROFESSIONAL ARTIST: Michael Whelan
BEST SEMIPRO MAGAZINE: LOCUS
BEST FANZINE: FILE 770

BEST FAN WRITER: Mike Gleyer
BEST FAN ARTIST: Alexis Gilliland
JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD: R. A. MacAvoy

Congratulations to all, etc.

tektronix!vice!hilton!anaheim!6605!trs80-100!keithl
Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 12:06:26 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Worldcon: The High Point
Cc: chris@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, comay@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA, Conde.PA@XEROX.ARPA,
Cc: edward@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, leres@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, Mackey.PA@XEROX.ARPA,
Cc: marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, Poskanzer.pa@XEROX.ARPA (SmegmaLord),
Cc: Riggle.PA@XEROX.ARPA, sarge%UCBCORY@UCB-VAX.ARPA,
Cc: taliesin%UCBONYX@UCB-VAX.ARPA, Yamamoto.PA@XEROX.ARPA,
Cc: Yang.PA@XEROX.ARPA

I could only attend one day (Saturday), so my opinion of the High
Point of the convention is necessarily skewed.  I'm sorry I missed
the Ice Cream Social, the Elfquest party, and of course, the
SFL-Party.

Anyway, for me, the High Point of the convention was the Elfquest
panel.  Richard Pini gave a HILARIOUS slide presentation.  Really
first-rate stuff.  Did anyone else attend?

First runner-up was the celebrity SFWA Roast of Gordy Dickson.  This
being my first Worldcon, I was pleased to finally see the faces of
such names as: Jerry Pournelle ("No one has ever accused me of being
polite"), Bob Bloch (what a wise-guy!), Norman Spinrad, Randall
Garrett, Harry Harrison, Robert Silverberg, Marta Randall, Fred
Pohl, Larry Niven ("We drank propellent") Poul Anderson, and of
course, Gordon Dickson himself.  You know the old rag about how it
is always disappointing to meet the person behind the legend ...
well I'm glad to say that an exception to the rule has been found.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 84 13:19:19-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!varian!vaxwaller!cw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Conservation of Momentum (and MT)

        This item was inspired partly by the talk on matter
transmission, but is not really about matter transmission.  I'll
mention a tie in between the two at the end.
        One problem with interstellar travel that I've hardly ever
seen addressed (maybe because sf-writers aren't LOOKING for
problems, just trying to explain away the ones people are already
likely to know) is that of conservation of momentum.  Isaac Asimov
did make some use of the concept in 'The Gods Themselves', but
otherwise it has been ignored, even by people like John Campbell,
who generally seems very conscientious about scientific accuracy.
In one of his novels, I think it was called 'The Mightiest Machine',
his characters have a device that makes the random motion of
molecules in an object become un-random; it can be used to make an
object shoot of in a given direction, the energy being provided by
the heat energy of the object, which becomes extremely cold. Nothing
shoots off in the opposite direction however, so momentum is not
conserved.
        A SF writer doesn't need to go around destroying planets to
provide energy to move a space ship around all the time, he or she
only needs to be able to borrow some for the voyage, then put it
back.
        If a rocket takes off for Alpha Centauri, it gets momentum
by providing momentum to exhaust gases in the opposite direction.
When the ship gets where it is going it loses this momentum by
giving it to more exhaust gases.  Now the rocket ship is in a
different place, but you have two clouds of gas hurtling away from
each other.  Physics majors can check me on this but I do not
believe that the center of mass of the universe ever changes during
all of this.
        Suppose somebody invents an anti-gravity device, and his
space ship "pushes" against a planet to get going for Centauri, then
pushes against another planet to stop.  Now these two planets are
moving apart ever so slightly, or not so slightly if the ship got up
to extremely high speeds.  So far no energy is recovered or put
back, but maybe the ship could use its anti-grav in a reverse
direction and pull back on the same planet that it started from,
which is what normal gravity does, the kinetic energy of the two
objects has to go somewhere, maybe it can be recovered and stored.
Now the ship is at point B, nothing is hurtling away from anything
else anymore than it was before, and presumably the center of mass
of the universe is still the same because the planet has moved over
a little bit to balance the greater displacement of the ship. How
soon the ship can arrive at a certain place is determined by how
much energy it can beg borrow or steal for the duration. If the ship
put a lot of energy into the motion, and got there in a short period
of time, would the distribution of mass be the same as if the voyage
had been more leisurely?
        A similar situation would be a car with batteries and
electric motors/generators that could brake by recharging its
battery.  Except for friction losses it could start and stop and
travel all around the planet, momentum being transferred back and
forth between planet and car.  Thinking about this I can't help but
wonder if momentum isn't the most primitive concept in physics.
        What is the tie-in with matter transmission?  Well, one or
maybe two people pointed out that one way around the problems
brought up about matter transmission was that two places in the
universe could be juxtaposed by bending the universe through another
dimension and having the person or whatever just step across the now
short space. Momentum could also be conserved by this method, but
would the center of mass of the universe still be the same?  What
other implications would there be?
                                Regards,
                                Carl Weidling

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #169
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 84 1200-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #169
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 6 Sep 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 169

Today's Topics:

       Books - Heinlein & Jokes (2 msgs) & Reviews (2 msgs) &
               Story Requests Answered (3 msgs) & Story Request &
               Sentient Silicon (2 msgs),
       Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs),
       Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 12:14 PDT
From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Re: Job

   Date: 25 Aug 84 18:11:37-PDT (Sat)
   From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!gloria!colonel
   From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
   Subject: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice

   [Feast if you can and eat if you dare]

   What I should like to know is: do the characters spend a lot of
   time on long-winded political and social discussions?  My chief
   reservation about Heinlein's previous works is that his
   characters pontificate ad nauseam.  (Extreme example: _Time
   Enough for Love_, in which Heinlein had to insert extra segments
   to hold all the protagonist's "wisdom.")  -- Col. G. L. Sicherman

No, he didn't.  Which is surprising; I think Heinlein slipped up
there.  Fairly un-Heinlein like, I'll admit.  I suppose He's
back-sliding.

    From the scrambled remains of
        - Bill Woody

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 84 7:53:52-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!wucs!nz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer)

> How many Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb?
>

   None,
         it's a Protector-designed bulb so it never burns out.

...nz@wucs (Washington U, where something almost happens sometimes)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 8:22:25-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer)

How many Protectors does it take to change a light bulb?

Only one, but you better find the one who built it...

Berry Kercheval    Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 84 20:01:06-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!kentb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Reviews (mini-spoiler)

Following are reviews of recent books: "Palimsests," by Carter
Scholz and Glenn Harcourt, and "Home Sweet Home, 2010 A.D.," by Mack
Reynolds with Dean Ing.

First the bad news--

Title- Palimpsests
Author(s)- Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt
Editor- Terry Carr
Publisher- Ace Science Fiction
Publishing date- September 1984

"Palimpsests," is the latest in the new (old) Ace Science Fiction
Specials series, a series intended to introduce new writers and
unusual styles to readers of presumably discerning taste.  The only
other book in this series that I have read was "The Wild Shore," by
Kim Stanley Robinson, a book that by its cover quotes was the herald
of a new age.  I was less than impressed, and I haven't read the
other two books that have appeared in the series.  When
"Palimpsests" showed up however, it looked good enough to risk
another try at a, "...novel of high quality and imagination."

A palimsest is a trace of writing on old parchments that have been
scraped clean and reused.  Since this practice was common among
early Christian monks reusing parchments originally containing pagan
writings, the practice of analyzing palimsests is of great value to
archeologists, since many early Christian parchments are still
extant.  The story revolves around a young archeologist named Camus,
who finds a kind of palimsest from the future at a dig in Germany.
Camus then discovers that the artifact he has discovered is wanted
by both the superpowers as well as several provate interests.  One
of these private research institutes, located in far Alaska,
captures the object and the protaganist in question, and proceeds to
experiment with both, culminating in a heroic world (universe)
saving effort by the confused Camus.  It doesn't sound like much of
a plot to me either.

In his introduction Terry Carr defies anyone to read the first
chapter and not go on to read the rest of the book.  As far as that
goes, he was right, the first chapter sets up the rest of the book
as well as any I have ever read.  Unfortunately Carter and Scholz
have real problems with pacing.  About two thirds of the way through
all of the tensions of that marvelous first chapter have been
resolved, and the conclusion came as a relief, not because the world
was no longer in danger, but because I no longer had to read the
drivel that was passing as an exploration of the nature of time.  I
enjoy reading books that challenge my basic beliefs, but it is not
necessary to pound such challenges into poi to get a point across.

All in all a fair book, and it probably could be read for the first
chapter alone.  I can't honestly recommend that, tho, unless you
want to feel compeled to wade through some pea-soup prose later.

Now the good news:

Title- Home Sweet Home, 2010 A.D.
Author- Mack Reynolds with Dean Ing
Publisher- Dell
Publication date- September 1984

Fun.  Fun, fun, fun.  The only thing not fun about this book was the
copyright being in the name of the literary estate of Mack Reynolds.
I had not known that he was dead.  Farewell Lagrangia.

The book looks like this: It is about a wacko extended family in the
aforementioned year, and the equally (if less delightfully) wacko
society in which they live.  One subplot involves a hit man who is
after a radical political writer the family is unwittingly
harboring.  The other concerns the last Indians in America and their
attempt to hold onto their land in the face of government attempts
to grab the uranium on it.  In the end the government and the status
quo take it in the tuckus, but everyone else seems to be satisfied.

The family, surnamed Chutzba (isn't that Yiddish for ...), reminds
me of what Heinlein's extended families would turn out to be in
practice.  Some members smart, some dumb, some beautiful, some not,
and things get done when the spirit moves.  Nobody is a superbeing,
but between them things seem to work out.  The society they live in
depends on welfare to support the populace, since automation has
taken over all the "real jobs" except government.  The family is
quite happy with this, since it leaves them time for farming,
drinking, and sex, definitely not in that order.

So sit back, kick off your sandals, pour yourself some applejack,
and enjoy.  But don't let Ruthie corner you, she's only 9, you know.

The preceding submitted from the flying fingers of:
    Kent Beck
    Tektronix, Inc.
    M/S 50-662
    POB 500
    Beaverton, OR 97077

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 84 17:30:02 cdt
From: David Wilson <wookie@rice.ARPA>

I can't help but agree with DUNTEMANN (7AUG84) about FUZZIES AND
OTHER PEOPLE.

Also, I agree with his opinions about 2001 and 2010.  (although I
thought that both were trash instead of just 2010)

However, I must somewhat vehemently disagree with his opinions
concerning Herbert's DUNE 'series'.  I will admit that it does seem
as if Herbert writes every other book with the sole intention of
paying off some mortgage, but it is possible that DUNE MESSIAH and
GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE were required to set up the situations which
made their successors so fascinating.  Yes, I did find CHILDREN OF
DUNE and HERETICS OF DUNE to be quite fascinating---they provided a
depth of realism not found in most of the societies created by
sci-fi authors that I am familiar with.  Further, I really don`t
care whether or not the DUNE series has any 'socially redeeming
literary value', I got quite a kick out of all of them and recommend
that if you have never bothered to finish the series (or even start
it), you should do so.

I could use a little advice: I vastly enjoyed Elizabeth A. Lynn's
book which starred Rhani, Zed, et cetera (my mind is a little numbed
by a few too many Beck Dark's to recall the title) but I wonder if
her other books are as good and if she has published anything in the
same vein.  Help me please??

I also strongly recommend Julian May's PLIOCENE EXILE  series.

Who originally introduced eroticism/pornography into sci-fi?  Was it
perhaps an obvious step in the evolution of the genre?  Might it not
be a sub-genre in itself?

Todd Smith       (therion on various un-netted systems--you can
PO Box 2671       communicate w/ me via wookie or snail mail)
Rice U.
Houston, TEXAS 77252

[Have pity on we the poor uneducated souls who have only the rarest
opportunity to screw around on a non-educational (i.e.,
non-restricted) system]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Sep 84 19:26:55 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #167

This plot also sounds similar to AE Vogt's SLAN.  This is an old
book (I believe my paperback copy was printed before I was born) but
has been reprinted recently.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 84 11:50:29-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Author/title request

> From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
>    Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in
> which only one person voted.  Statistical sampling had advanced to
> the point that one specially chosen citizen could be questioned
> about many different things and the outcome of any contest
> predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs.  It was a
> great honor to be the person chosen, even though you knew that
> about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you.  It didn't even
> matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just how your
> answers reflected society as a whole.  The subject was hooked into
> a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but to help
> measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal answers
> were given.  Anyone know title/author?

"Polygraph", indeed!  It was one of Asimov's Multivac stories.  I
don't remember which.

--bsa

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 84 9:41:59-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!pesnta!wjvax!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Author/title request

>> From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA
>>    Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in
>> which only one person voted.  Statistical sampling had advanced
>> to the point that one specially chosen citizen could be
>> questioned about many different things and the outcome of any
>> contest predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs.
>> It was a great honor to be the person chosen, even though you
>> knew that about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you.  It
>> didn't even matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just
>> how your answers reflected society as a whole.  The subject was
>> hooked into a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but
>> to help measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal
>> answers were given.  Anyone know title/author?

>"Polygraph", indeed!  It was one of Asimov's Multivac stories.  I
>don't remember which.
>--bsa

The story in question is "Franchise" by Ike Asimov.

                        Paul Summers
                        Watkins Johsnon, Co.
                        San Jose, Ca.
                        (...ios!wjvax!paul)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 11:39:03 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23

I personally have not read this book, but my aunt did, so this
description is second hand:

The story takes place in the future, where resources are scarce.  My
aunt recalls a description of taking a shower, with a five minute
hot water allotment.

On an asteroid, some <thing> (machine, device, computer) directs
adventurous individuals on a random expedition.  These expeditions
are exploratory.  If a valuable astronomical body is found (like a
double star), then the adventurers can claim overwhelming rewards.
More often that not, however, the adventurers never return alive.

The story has a humorous tone.  The hero is a bumbler.  It turns out
that the crew that he gets shipped out with does indeed find a
double star, but they have trouble escaping from it's gravitational
pull.  To get away, they decide to jettison one of the pods of their
two pod ship.  They put all the heavy unnecessary stuff in one pod,
and they climbed into the other ... all but the hero that is.  By
his clumsiness, he and his girlfriend were stuck in the pod about to
be jettisoned.  Somehow, by deciding to sacrifice himself and stay
in the bad pod, he manages to get his girlfriend over into the good
pod.

But something happens and the HERO gets saved, and the other pod,
with the rest of his crew, gets shot into the middle of the double
star.

In the end, he feels regret, for he knows that although years have
passed for him (he's wealthy now for the discovery), because of the
near light acceleration of the other pod, his crewmates are still
suffering and have not yet died!

Doubtless this description is HIGHLY distorted, having come second
hand, ACROSS A LANGUAGE BARRIER (my aunt is German and she can't
remember if she read the story in German or English).  But if anyone
recognizes it, the author and title would be greatly appreciated by

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 84 10:52:58-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!linus!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Sentient Silicon

That reminds me of a story I read wherein medical technology had
advanced to the point where the recently dead could be brought back
to life.  This resulted in an increased murder rate accompanied by
an almost total apathy toward the crime.  The police would allow
murder victims, after being resurected, to seek "retribution"
against their murderers.  The main character, after killing his
wife's murderer, was said to have felt better about it than any
other murder he had committed, since this murderer's people did not
believe in medical resurection.

An amusing line from the story (paraphrased):

"Johnson screwed up the Collins report, so I had to kill him again."

Robert Perlberg
Resource Dynamics Inc.
New York
philabs!rdin!perl

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 84 12:04:59-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Sentient Silicon (Germainium? Superconducting Lead?...)

> From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
> human.  The machine will have "grown" up with the whole idea of
> backups.  For all it knows it will be loaded back in again.  I
> can't see how this would be any worse than running the NULL job
> for a while (or is that a lobotomy.  Oh my English just can't
> handle this (reminds me of time travel varients on language (See
> HHGttG))).

Hmmm... seems to me you just legitimized Genesis.  Did Spock know he
would be re-booted? :-)

Time travel variants on language?  How about Deety and Lib in Number
of the Beast?  (now there's weird for you :-)

--bsa

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 09:58:50 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Mad Monster Party

Mercy ,please have mercy because my memory failed. It was just a
parity error. Honest!

However, more mundanely, does anyone know when Buckaroo Banzai will
be released in New York.  I missed it when I was in LA and am now
soundly cursing Fox for the delay.  Help Please.......

wondering about the whichness of why
alex

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 84 10:23:45 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Buckaroo Bonzai

        According to rumors I heard floating around Worldcon, this
movie was removed from circulation because it was not doing well.
Does anyone have any more information??

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 1984 13:58:01-EDT
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: star trek in LA.

Well cut Star Trek is better than what WPIX (11) New York has been
showing weeknights after midnight.  I call it "Star Trek
highlights".

                           Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #170
Date:  7 Sep 84 1234-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #170
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Sep 84 1234-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #170
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 7 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 170

Today's Topics:

                 Administrivia - The Hugos,
                 Books - Asimov & Borges & Pynchon,
                 Films - Dune & Buckaroo Banzai,
                 Videos - The Lathe of Heaven & Fantasy Videos,
                 Miscellaneous - Conservation of Momentum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 12:19:05 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hugos

        In the continuing tradition of public service to the readers
of this digest, now available via FTP in the directory T:<SFL> here
at Rutgers is the complete history of the Hugo Awards.  This file
(hugos.txt) includes all the hugo award winners since the first
award given in 1953 including special awards.  Use the ANONYMOUS
login of FTP to retrieve the file.
        For those of you who are not on the ARPAnet or do not have
access to FTP, please do not send me requests to mail it to you.
The file is too large for the mailers to handle.  Please see someone
at your site for information on how to get access to the file.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  7 Sep 1984 04:54:14-PDT
From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: The Good Doctor

In one of the many responses identifying Isaac Asimov's "Franchise",
Paul Summers said:

        "The story in question is "Franchise" by Ike Asimov."

Surely anyone who is at all familiar with Asimov's autobiographical
writings should know that if there's one name he absolutely
DESPISES, it's "Ike".

By the way, in a preface to one of the Multivac stories he relates
how he came up with the name "Multivac".  You see, there was this
well known computer of the time called Univac, and Asimov wanted his
computer to have LOTS of vacuum tubes, instead of Univac's one....

        Steve Lionel
        ARPA: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
        UUCP: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orphan!lionel
        MCI:  Steve Lionel (177-0623)

"God is real unless declared integer."

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 3:00:20-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!utah-cs!donn @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Fun with Borges' 'The Library of Babel'

This discussion is a bit of a spoiler, so if you hate spoilers and
enjoy fantasy, rush out right now and buy Jorge Luis Borges'
FICCIONES (which contains some really remarkable stories besides
'The Library of Babel', including 'The Circular Ruins' and 'Pierre
Menard, Author of DON QUIXOTE'), read it, then come back and read
this...

'The Library of Babel' is really a fun story, and it's a fun story on
several levels, as a fantasy, as a mathematical game, as
philosophical speculation and as satire (Borges was once a librarian
and was (is?)  director of the National Library of Argentina).  The
story has been anthologized in numerous places, and has inspired a
number of SF stories; for example Gene Wolfe has admitted in
PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING that the Library was an inspiration for the
peculiar library of the Citadel (and perhaps the House Absolute and
who knows how many other places) in his BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.

One of the more straightforward puzzles is the construction of the
Library.  Here is how Borges describes it:

        The universe (which others call the Library) is composed of
        an indefinite, perhaps an infinite, number of hexagonal
        galleries, with enormous ventilation shafts in the middle,
        encircled by very low railings.  From any hexagon the upper
        or lower stories are visible, interminably.  The
        distribution of the galleries is invariable.  Twenty shelves
        -- five long shelves per side -- cover all sides except two;
        their height, which is that of each floor, scarcely exceeds
        that of an average librarian.  One of the free sides gives
        upon a narrow entrance way, which leads to another gallery,
        identical to the first and to all the others.  To the left
        and right of the entrance way are two miniature rooms.  One
        allows standing room for sleeping; the other, the
        satisfaction of fecal necessities.  Through this section
        passes the spiral staircase, which plunges down into the
        abyss and rises up to the heights....

This description is somewhat ambiguous and incomplete; the only
other information we have is the following cryptic Dictum which is
passed down among librarians through the generations:

        The Library is a sphere whose consummate center is any
        hexagon, and whose circumference is inaccessible.

Let's make some assumptions.  From the Dictum, let us assume that
the Library fills space; it extends to an arbitrarily large distance
in all directions in three dimensions (or more?).  Let's assume that
the second 'free side' of a hexagon opens onto another gallery
directly, without passing through a hall with a staircase.  Without
this assumption it would be difficult to establish an arrangement
compatible with the first assumption.  Next, let's assume that given
sufficient time, it is possible to travel from any hexagon to any
other; this is implied but not stated in the course of the story.
Finally, to make tiling convenient, let's assume that the halls
which contain stairwells are hexagonal in shape and the same size as
the book hexagons.  We can explain the narrowness of the corridor by
the fact that the bedrooms and bathrooms and stairs take up most of
the floor space.  We can even put the stairs in the same position as
the central ventilation shaft of the book hexagons (they were
pre-fabricated!).

Then the fun question to ask is: How are the hexagons laid out?
Several possibilities come to mind, depending on what aesthetic
restrictions one chooses to impose on the structure.  One really
simple possibility is to lay the rooms out in rows; here is a crude
picture (O's mark stairwell hexagons, ='s and X's mark doors):

        \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /     Sample closed hexagon:
         = O =   =   = O =   =   = O =
        / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \                  / \
           = O =   =   = O =   =   = O =                |   |
        \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /                  \ /
         =   = O =   =   = O =   =   =
        / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \

In this batik-like pattern the paths through the Library run from
left to right, with a stairwell every third hexagon.  This
arrangement has a difficulty -- it's impossible to move from one row
of hexagons to another on the same level.  If the same pattern
occurs on lower levels, then the Library ends up being partitioned
into planes of hexagons.  This runs against our assumption that
every hexagon is accessible from every other.

Perhaps we can salvage this tiling and preserve its symmetry by
assuming that alternate levels of the Library alternate reflections
of the tiling.  Reflecting the tiling across an axis passing through
a column of stairwell rooms preserves the positions of stairwells
and ventilation shafts (which are mutually exclusive by virtue of
the statement that they continue 'interminably') but changes the
orientations of the rows of rooms.  This allows you to go down a
level, traipse through a few rooms, then come up a level into a
different row.  Does this solve the problem?

It seems that this isn't quite enough.  Instead of arbitrarily many
sets of rooms, we now have three sets of rooms.  The difficulty is
that stairwells are spaced three rooms apart, so when you go down a
level and skip along to another stairwell, you will always come up a
multiple of 3 rows away from your starting point.  Rows that are 1
mod 3 or 2 mod 3 distant are in disjoint sets.  Is there any tiling
in which all the rooms are laid out this way and every room is
accessible from every other room?  By 'this way', I mean an
arrangement where all the stated assumptions are true, with the
additional hypotheses that every hexagon has an infinite linear path
going through it, and various levels may be rotations or reflections
of the basic pattern.

What happens if the paths through the Library need not be straight?
An example of a crooked tiling might be the following (X's and ='s
denote doors):

        \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ /      Sample closed hexagon:
         = O =   |   = O =   |   = O =
        / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \                  / \
           = O =   |   = O =   |   = O =                |   |
        X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ /                  \ /
         |   = O =   |   = O =   |   =
        / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \

As with the previous pattern, if this pattern were to continue up
and down for indefinite distances, then the Library would be
partitioned into an infinite number of sets.  Unlike the previous
pattern, if the levels of the Library alternate with appropriate
reflections of the tiling, any hexagon of the Library can be reached
from any other.  (Try to visualize the method.)

While this arrangement satisfies all the assumptions, it is clumsy.
If you want to reach a hexagon that is on the same level as the one
you are standing in, chances are that you can't get there without
changing levels.  Is it possible to have a layout of hexagons that
will get you to any other hexagon on the current level without
needing to cross levels?

This is an easy question, so I'll make it somewhat harder: is it
possible to create a layout such that the time it takes to travel
between two hexagons on the same level, without changing levels, is
independent of their location in the Library?  Is it possible to
design a layout that has a minimal average path between two hexagons
on the same level?  I don't have answers for these...

A liberal interpretation of Borges' description might permit
stairwell hexagons to have more than two entrances.  Does this
change the problem?  (This is fairly easy.)

That's all I have to say on this at the moment.  Corrections and
suggestions are welcome...  The next posting I want to make on this
will examine the size of the Library.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 13:20:22-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Why pick on Pynchon?

>>  It amazes me that a compartively skilled writer such as Pynchon
>>  can be slammed on this list while such crude authors as Piers
>>  Anthony, whom I find unreadable, pass unscathed.

Agreed, Pynchon is a *skilled* writer, it's just that not all of us
are willing to bull through all the extraneaous stuff he throws in
to prove it.  I generally liked "V" (even the South African garden
party sequence, which did little to further anything else in the
book), and I often wish that I had been able to get past page 100 in
"Gravity's Rainbow."  My tolerance for self-indulgent writing is
just too low.

We do agree about Piers Anthony.  I have actually read several of
his novels, and after each one I have asked myself why I bothered.
The last straw was the "Planet of Tarot" series, which I read in a
fit of boredom while on a long business trip.  I actually emulated
that old cliche of throwing the book across the room, shouting
"Never again!"  What irritates me is that he couldn't even get his
research on the Tarot right.  I could excuse his miserable writing
and blatant sexism (he does know that women are human, doesn't he?)
if he could just get *something* right.

                        Bruce Cohen
                        UUCP:   ...!tektronix!orca!brucec
                        CSNET:  orca!brucec@tektronix
                        ARPA:   orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay
                        USMail: M/S 61-183
                                Tektronix, Inc.
                                P.O. Box 1000
                                Wilsonville, OR 97070

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 09:10:10 PDT (Thursday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Dune Movie Picture Book

>>And he (whoever he is) had the nerve to fit in a new device.

This is particularly obnoxious in the face of the Butlerian Jihad!
Where did this device come from?  Ix?

My expectations for the movie are so low that I doubt that I can be
seriously disappointed.  The movie trailer sure looks gee-whiz, but
I can't see that special-effects could replace the intricate plot(s)
in the book.

I did have one expectation, which of course is not fulfilled in the
movie.  I don't know about anyone else, but it seemed to me that
Herbert intentionally gave the Fremen an Arabian (near eastern
anyway) motiff.  So why is it that the Fremen in the movie (trailer)
look like a bunch of surfers off of Malibu, wetsuits and all??  Is
this an unreasonable interpretation?

Anyway, my money is on 2010, negative rumours notwithstanding.

Perry

PS
Oh yes, the actor who plays Harkonnen isn't fat enough.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 10:30:48-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai support

You may have noticed that the film Buckaroo Banzai is not really
around at the moment.

If you want it to come back and play at local theaters, send a quick
letter (of support) to:

        Kathryn Linclau
        Sherwood Productions
        9454 Wilshire Blvd.
        Beverly Hills, CA 90212

-address supplied by 20th C Fox.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 84 7:19:00-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2h!ajw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Lathe of Heaven

hmm...i'd like a copy too...

I've seen it twice on PBS and found it VERY accurate to the book
(refreshing, what?) - 'twas good enough I'll (Finally!) have to
break down and buy a VCR!  (of course, then i'll have no excuse NOT
to buy all the StarTrek tapes :-)

is anyone SELLING LoH commercially? PBS? PLEASE????

-art    ...ihnp4!hou2h!ajw      HO1B612 201/834-1142

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 84 13:49 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Fantasy Videos

Does anyone know where you may obtain video cassettes of TV fantasy
or SF shows?  In particular, I have a friend who desperately wants
copies of all the Wizards and Warriors shows (nine of them?) from
last year.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 12:38:27 EDT
From: Louis Steinberg <STEINBERG@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: conservation of momentum

Carl Weidling notes that matter transmission does not necessarily
imply violating consevation of momentum, but notes that classical
conservation of momentum implies that the center of mass of the the
universe is not altered while matter transmission does seem to alter
it.  I have two comments:

If momentum is conserved, then you come out of the matter
transmitter with the same momentum you went into it with.  Since
your mass doesn't change (we hope!), your velocity doesn't change.
The problem is that the place you transmit to may be moving with a
quite different velocity.  E.g. if you transmit from one point on
the equator to another point on the equator exactly on the other
side of the earth, you will come out moving about 2000 mph relative
to the ground.  Interplanetary MT is even worse.  I vaguely remember
one of the series of short stories on MT used this device to limit
the range of MT for the first few stories.  Eventually a method was
developed that allowed the momentum to be transfered to some large
mass somewhere in the process of transmitting you.  (This was the
series including the story Flash Crowd.)

While conservation of momentum is a well established law, the
question about center of mass of the universe is not a real issue.
In fact, the term "center of mass of the universe" does not even
make much sense in a relativistic universe.  Presumably one defines
this by taking the position and mass of every particle at some
instant.  The problem is that there is no consistent way to define
"the same instant in time" for two particles that are moving
relative to each other at some noticable fraction of the speed of
light.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #171
Date: 10 Sep 84 1233-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #171
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 84 1233-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #171
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 171

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Dickson & Heinlein &
                  Pohl (4 msgs) & Reynolds,
          Films - Buckaroo Banzai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: berch%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Date: Wed Sep  5 22:25:36 1984
Subject: Review: ON A PALE HORSE by Piers Anthony

Anthony, Piers. ON A PALE HORSE. (Ballantine/Del Rey, August 1984,
  pb, 325 pp., $2.95. ISBN 0-345-30518-3.)
  ``Book One of Incarnations of Immortality''

Summary: Below average for Anthony, but inoffensive reading.

Review:

Each of Piers Anthony's series has taken up a new set of elaborate
symbols and social institutions. In the CLUSTER novels it was alien
cultures and their symbolic `themes.' In the APPRENTICE ADEPT (Split
Infinity etc.) it was the ritual games of Proton and the adepts of
Phaze. In the XANTH novels Anthony has built a detailed system of
personal and collective magic.

ON A PALE HORSE introduces a new system where science and magic
coexist (rather unconvincingly, I think: the APPRENTICE ADEPT books
showed exactly why science and magic don't mix well; however,
Anthony has chosen not to take his own advice).

The kicker here is that the archetypical figures of Death, Fate,
Nature, War, and Time are literal, and are incarnate; their offices
are filled by humans who carry out their traditional duties (and
have the benefit of certain powers and perquisites).

The book's hero, Zane, becomes Death (as revealed on the back
cover). Yes, there is a love interest. Yes, our hero must find a way
to outfox the baddies while just beginning to learn the ropes of his
new job. Yes, there are a number of unforgiveable puns.  Yes, there
are fights and chases in which our hero must defeat his enemies by
quick thinking and intuition rather than brawn.  Yes, there is a
faithful steed that reveals useful information to our hero at
crucial moments. Is this beginning to sound familiar?

Yes. Unfortunately, after exploring numerous mature themes in books
like CHTHON, the CLUSTER novels, and particularly the BATTLE CIRCLE
series (Sos the Rope, etc.) Anthony has turned out a large number of
inoffensive books with no real substance or flavor. I finished ON A
PALE HORSE with a shrug rather than a moist eye or a smile.

Oh, yes, there's supposed to be a message in here about ``death with
dignity'' and death as a natural process, and I think that this is
admirable. Unfortunately, the points are rather heavy-handed.

Readers who follow Anthony's career will also enjoy the author's
lengthy note at the end of the book, similar to that following
VISCOUS CIRCLE. I somehow get the idea that Anthony knows he is not
living up to the promise of his early writing, but is either a)
unable to return to his forte, or b) enjoying life on the
best-seller lists too much. Curiously, the BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT
series, also unfinished, does not suffer from the same flaws as ON A
PALE HORSE.

I wish I could recommend ON A PALE HORSE more highly, having spent
many happy hours with the CLUSTER and BATTLE CIRCLE books. Perhaps
``Book Two of Incarnations of Immortality'', BEARING AN HOURGLASS,
now in hardcover, will provide that opportunity.

                                Michael Berch
                                berch@lll-tis.arpa
                                ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!berch

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 20:19:50-PDT
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet>
Subject: Piers Anthony

Unlike some other people on this net, I do enjoy most of what Piers
Anthony writes.  Much of it is not worth contemplation or
re-reading, but it does suit my primary purpose of reading SF:
entertainment.  My point in writing this is to recommend two of his
books to those of you who have not read them because of the author.

Bio of a space Tyrant: Vol 1: Refugee 0-380-84194-0 Avon Oct 83
  $2.95
Bio of a space Tyrant: Vol 2: Mercenary 0-380-87221-8 Avon Jun 84
  $2.95

Not the light entertainment of Piers Anthony's other writings.  A
serious story of how circumstances turned someone into a "tyrant",
from the tyrant's point of view.  Two of the best books in my
collection.  Warning: those of you who want to be offended will be
by descriptions of both violence and sex.  Vol 3: Politician will be
out eventually.  ("Soon")

Bob Larson <Blarson@Usc-Ecl>

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 20:32:47-PDT
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet>
Subject: Gordon R. Dickson: The Final Encyclopedia

is available in hardcover.  A must for readers of the Childe Cycle
series.  Since I am not good at reviewing, I won't.  I liked it.

The Final Encyclopedia  Gordon R. Dickson
  Tor 0-312-93241-3 Oct 84 $18.95

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 6:34:31-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!mcnc!rti!rti-sel!rcb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS 'who ius

        The collection to find "Green Hills of Earth" is Heinlein's
first masterpiece collection, THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW. It contains
his future history series of short stories (about 30) and is the
best book I've ever read (and read and read...). A absolute must for
any Heinlein lover.
                                        Randy Buckland
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti!rcb

------------------------------

Date: 07-Sep-1984 1058
From: g_hafner%wookie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gerry Hafner)
Subject: Re:Book request, SF-LOVERS V9.169

>From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
>
>I personally have not read this book, but my aunt did, so this
>description is second hand:

>The story takes place in the future, where resources are scarce.
>My aunt recalls a description of taking a shower, with a five
>minute hot water allotment.

>On an asteroid, some <thing> (machine, device, computer) directs
>adventurous individuals on a random expedition.  These expeditions
>are exploratory.  If a valuable astronomical body is found (like a
>double star), then the adventurers can claim overwhelming rewards.
>More often that not, however, the adventurers never return alive.

>The story has a humorous tone.  The hero is a bumbler.  It turns
>out that the crew that he gets shipped out with does indeed find a
>double star, but they have trouble escaping from it's gravitational
>pull.  To get away, they decide to jettison one of the pods of
>their two pod ship.  They put all the heavy unnecessary stuff in
>one pod, and they climbed into the other ... all but the hero that
>is.  By his clumsiness, he and his girlfriend were stuck in the pod
>about to be jettisoned.  Somehow, by deciding to sacrifice himself
>and stay in the bad pod, he manages to get his girlfriend over into
>the good pod.

>But something happens and the HERO gets saved, and the other pod,
>with the rest of his crew, gets shot into the middle of the double
>star.

>In the end, he feels regret, for he knows that although years have
>passed for him (he's wealthy now for the discovery), because of the
>near light acceleration of the other pod, his crewmates are still
>suffering and have not yet died!

>Doubtless this description is HIGHLY distorted, having come second
>hand, ACROSS A LANGUAGE BARRIER (my aunt is German and she can't
>remember if she read the story in German or English).  But if
>anyone recognizes it, the author and title would be greatly
>appreciated by

>Perry
            ************** SLIGHT SPOILER *************
        The story your aunt described has to be "Gateway", by
Frederik(sp?)  Pohl. The "trips" were volunteer missions in
'Heechee' ships, found parked in a hollow asteroid, and, yes, they
were more often than not one-way rides. The main character,
Robinette Broadhead, became quite wealthy when he became the sole
returnee from the last trip he made, where he left his girlfriend
and several other people behind (I can't remember if it was
accidental or on purpose, it's been a while since I read it).
However, I would like to point out one thing: the last trip he made
ended up, I believe, coming into a reasonably close orbit around a
black hole, rather than a double star. I can't say more without
ruining the ending, though. I suggest you read it, if you're this
interested, you'll probably enjoy it.
        By the way, I highly recommend the next book in the series,
"Beyond the Blue Event Horizon" (don't know the date, my copy is
paperback and at home), I thought it carried along the ideas from
Gateway quite well.
        Gerry Hafner
        DEC Littleton (MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
           !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-wookie!hafner
ARPA:   hafner%wookie.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 7 Sep 84 21:54:16 EDT
Subject: Gateway & Your German Aunt

That fellow's German aunt was reading GATEWAY by Frederick
Pohl...but it boggles the mind to think that she (or anybody!) could
think of it as a humorous work.  It remains one of the grimmest
tales I have ever read.  Makes you wonder what those English-German
translators smoke while they do their thing.

Nonetheless, it is good readiing, and the two sequels are tolerable,
as sequels go.  BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON & HEECHEE RONDEZVOUS

I cannot, however, read the word "kugelblitz" without thinking of a
German pastry.  (It's actually a thoroughly nasty thing; black hole
containing horrible monsters, from HEECHEE RONDEZVOUS.)  Sort of
adds fuel to my contention that translation is impossible without
numerous unintentional giggles.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Sep 1984  00:41 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23

    Date: Tuesday, 4 September 1984  14:39-EDT
    From: Caro.PA at XEROX.ARPA
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23

The story in question is "Gateway", by Fredrick Pohl, with the
following comments:

    The story takes place in the future, where resources are scarce.
    My aunt recalls a description of taking a shower, with a five
    minute hot water allotment.

On the asteroid, this is certainly true. Back on Earth, food is
pretty short, but water isn't a problem.

    On an asteroid, some <thing> (machine, device, computer) directs
    adventurous individuals on a random expedition.

The "thing" is a governing council from the United Nations. The
missions aren't so much random as that the scientists have no idea
how the ships work.

    These expeditions are exploratory.  If a valuable astronomical
    body is found (like a double star), then the adventurers can
    claim overwhelming rewards.  More often that not, however, the
    adventurers never return alive.

Pretty accurate, except the board is much more interested in Heechee
junk than neat stars.

    The story has a humorous tone.  The hero is a bumbler.

The story is very tragic in tone, and Robin is portrayed
sympathetically.

    It turns out that the crew that he gets shipped out with does
    indeed find a double star, but they have trouble escaping from
    it's gravitational pull.  To get away, they decide to jettison
    one of the pods of their two pod ship.  They put all the heavy
    unnecessary stuff in one pod, and they climbed into the other
    ... all but the hero that is.  By his clumsiness, he and his
    girlfriend were stuck in the pod about to be jettisoned.
    Somehow, by deciding to sacrifice himself and stay in the bad
    pod, he manages to get his girlfriend over into the good pod.

For double star read black hole, and he isn't clumsy.

    In the end, he feels regret, for he knows that although years
    have passed for him (he's wealthy now for the discovery),
    because of the near light acceleration of the other pod, his
    crewmates are still suffering and have not yet died!

Fairly accurate again, except that the time dilation is due to the
event horizon of the black hole.

It should also be noted that there are two sequels (mentioned
recently):

Beyond the Blue Event Horizon
Heechee Rendezvous
                                                James

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Sep 1984  22:27 EDT
From: CCS.TMRC.MAP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23

This sounds similar to the opening of "Beyond the Blue Event
Horizon" by Fredrik Pohl.  However there are some MAJOR
discrepancies which may be either due to your aunt's memory, the
transfer of information to you, or the fact that it is the wrong
story.  BtBEH is actually about events considerably after the loss
of the girl and describe the hero involved in other episodes, but
being haunted by the memory of the girl friend.  The lost half of
ship wasn't lost to a star system of any kind but to a black hole,
thus the reference to the "Event Horizon".  This is one of the
Heechee series being discussed elsewhere on the mailing list for
different reasons.  The "asteroid machine" is an artifact of the
Heechee, a long gone super-civilization.  The humans do not know how
to control it, but it often has VERY useful artifacts at the far end
of the transport beam and sometimes it brings back the bold
adventurers.  If you have any questions or desire further info, feel
free to contact me (if you can't get me here, I'm also MAP@MIT-MC).

Mike

P.S. For your further information here is the entries from my
personal bibliography for the two books in this series I own:

Book (SFBC)
Title:          Gateway
Author:         Fredrik Pohl
Publisher:      St. Martin's Press, Inc.
                175 Fifth Avenue
                New York, New York 10010

Book (SFBC)
Title:          Beyond the Blue Event Horizon
Author:         Fredrik Pohl
Publisher:      Ballantine Books
                New York, New York
Synopsis:       Sequel to Gateway

[Moderator's Note: I received many answers to this story response
but unfortunately because of space limitations I cannot include them
all.  There also seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether
the story is "Gateway" or Beyond the Blue Event Horizon."  The
following people believe it to be "Gateway":

FIRTH@TL-20B
Andy V (a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl)
carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc
Roger (goun%whoaru.DEC@decwrl)
Tom Perrine (tom@LOGICON)
Stephen R. Balzac (LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC)
Andrew Kenah (kenah%super.DEC@decwrl)
Peter (Alfke.PASA@XEROX)
utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse
Roy J. Mongiovi (hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!gitpyr!roy
                @Ucb-Vax)

The Following believe it to be "Beyond...":

Dave (Newman.pasa@Xerox)
Jim  (feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl)
Wang Zeep (G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC)

Whichever book it actually comes from I'm sure it is well worth
reading the whole series.  Thanks to all for responses.]

------------------------------

Date: Fri 7 Sep 84 12:36:30-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #169

Mack Reynolds died about a year and a half ago, right before Boskone
'83 (Washington's Birthday Weekend) at which he was to be the GoH.
It was suggested that the traditional Dead Dog party at the con's
end should be renamed the Dead Guest of Honor party....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Sep 84 11:58 PDT
From: Alfke.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai

> According to rumors I heard floating around Worldcon, this movie
> was removed from circulation because it was not doing well.  Does
> anyone have any more information??

Well, I saw the movie last weekend in Orange County (i.e. at the
same time as WorldCon), so it's probably still playing.  I have
heard nothing about it's being axed . . . does this mean they won't
do "Buckaroo Banzai Versus the World Crime League" ??

                                        -- Peter Alfke
                "Post No Bills"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #172
Date: 10 Sep 84 1254-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #172
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 84 1254-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #172
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:

        Books - Aspirin & Brust & Burgess & Elgin (3 msgs) &
                Foster & Gibson & Saberhagen,
        Films - Dune & The Stainless Steel Rat,
        Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - Conservation of Center of Mass of the Universe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 08:11 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23
Cc: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA

Here is my question : Are there any other books by Robert Lynn Aspirin
in the same Milleux as "Another Fine Myth"? This milleux is NOT the
Thieve's world stuff (Of which another book is scheduled to come out
in the next couple of months) but I have heard that there are some
other books about this milleux. I enjoyed AFM but can't find any
others. Can someone give me a hand ?? ((I KNOW this is more Fantasy
than SF but....))

   >>Dave

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 13:31:56-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Jhereg:  review, no spoilers

Jhereg, by Steven Brust, Ace Fantasy, $2.50

Mini-review: Buy it!  Saint the author!  If you like assassins,
you'll love this one.

Normal review: *Jhereg* is a devious tale concerning an assassin
named Vlad Taltos, who lives in a town called Adrilankha which makes
Lankhmar look normal.  (Maybe it's the 'kh' which does it.)  It's
about devious maneuvers, life-death battles, Death, Loyalty, Honour,
Subtlety, and several other good words.  Let me give a brief sample
(non-spoiler) of the text:

...At the other extreme from simply killing someone and leaving his
body to be found and, possibly, revivified, is a special kind of
murder which is almost never done.  To take an example, let us say
that an assassin whom you have hired is caught by the Empire and
tells them who hired him, in exchange for his worthless soul.
   What do you do?  You've already marked him as dead -- no way the
Empire can protect him enough to keep a top-notch assassin out.  But
that isn't enough; not for someone low enough to talk to the Empire
about you.  So what do you do?  You scrape together, oh, at least
six thousand gold, and you arrange to meet with the best assassin
you can find -- an absolute top-notch professional -- and give him
the name of the target, and you say "Morganti."

Jhereg is as twisted as your favorite DNA; half-way through the book
the hero is in a position in which he has the choice of:
  1. Dishonoring his closest friend and touching off the equivalent
     of a jihad.
  2. Sparing the friend's honor, losing his own honor (and
     subsequently his life), and having the same blood-feud happen
     anyway.

It's set in a world where everybody is dangerous (those who aren't,
die), and most are cruel.  There are several conversations between
angry friends which sent shivers up my spine.

Furthermore, there's a prequel, Yendi.  But read Jhereg first.

"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the
shoulder-blades will seriously cramp his style."

Betsy Perry
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy "What is Truth?" said
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth                     jesting Pilate; and would
ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay          not stay for an answer.

------------------------------

Date: 07 Sep 84 02:04:43 PDT (Fri)
Cc: mrose@uci-750a
Subject: Review: The End of the World News
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-750a>

Micro-review: read it--especially the Foreword--a howl.

Macro-review:

According to the introduction (a rather strange one, implying that
the author is dead, when he probably isn't--well, is he?), the title
of this book by Anthony Burgess is inspired by the BBC news signoff
"That's the end of the World News".  TEotWN is three almost
completely separate stories mixed in alternating chapters into one
book.

One story is a historical dramatization of Freud's invention of
psychoanalysis and his trials and tribulations from then until the
beginning of World War Two, when he was rescued from the clutches of
the Austrian Gestapo (Freud was a Jew, you see). The story is told
in flashback, mostly from Freud's point of view.

The second story is a quasi-musical, complete with song cues and
lyrics, but no actual music, that describes a visit (fictional or
not--I'm not sure) by Trotsky to New York just prior to the 1917
Communist revolution in Russia.

The third story is really about the end of the world.  A rogue
planet named Lynx is due to make a destructive flyby of Earth, round
the sun, and return to collide with Earth one year later. The story
is a half-parody of "When Worlds Collide", with a dash of "A
Clockwork Orange" (another book by Burgess, which was made into an
equally depraved movie by Kubrick) thrown in for good measure.

The story about Freud is interesting, the Trotsky musical is awful,
and the end of the world story is somewhat banal, but not too bad.
The mixture is enough to keep your interest up; it's sort of like
switching channels between three network shows without losing the
thread of any one show.  I'm probably dense, but I can't find any
but the most superficial relationships among the three stories.

Publication information:
        The End Of The World News
        by Anthony Burgess
        softcover from Penguin Books, New York; 1983
        (the copyright is by Lianna Burgess; maybe AB actually
        croaked!)
-jns

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 1984 12:17:12 EDT ( WEDNESDAY )
From: <ALBERGA%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: S. H. Elgin

Elgin has always been one of my favorite writers, and it is with
great pleasure that I see her working again in "our" field.

I can identify 8 of her 9 novels, and would appreciate anyone
pointing me toward the missing title.  I am at work (IBM Research)
and don't have the bibliographic information handy.

The Communipaths
Fartherest
At the Seventh Level
   These are from c. 1970, and have been recently reprinted in one
   volumn as the Communipaht Novels.

The Ozark Trilogy, consisting of:
  Twelve Fair Kingdoms
  The Grand Jubilee
  Then There'll be Fireworks

Star Anchored, Star Angered
Native Tongue

These are all avalable in paperback.
Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: Thu 6 Sep 84 19:58:55-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Books by S H Elgin

The only other books I know of by Suzette Haden Elgin are the "Ozark
Trilogy":

        Twelve Fair Kingdoms
        The Grand Jubilee
        And Then There'll be Fireworks

All three are collected in an SFBC Edition, published by Doubleday.
Unfortunately there seems to be no ISBN on my copy (shame, sirs!).

The trilogy is set on the planet of Ozark,where there is a society
of some strangeness, and a heroine (Responsible of Brightwater) that
it was very hard to sympathise with.  Perhaps I got so little out of
the books because I know nothing about things "Ozark".

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 12:38:35-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: NATIVE TONGUE by S. H. Elgin

Suzette Hadley Elgin is the author of a fine trilogy about a planet
called Mizzurah; the only title I can remember is the last volume,
called 'And Then There'll Be Fireworks'.  Mizzurah is a planet
settled by a number of disgusted Appalachians; needless to say,
magic works.  I thought it was funny, and the heroine's marvelous.
Her name is Responsible of Brightwater; need I say more?

Ms. Elgin also has written several stories/novellas about the
Communipath worlds, so called because telepaths are used for
interstellar communication.  Unfortunately, they tend to burn out
and die before they're twenty.  Again, I like the characters very
much.  (Trivia note: Joanna Russ' 'The Two of Us' is based on the
setting of one of Ms. Elgin's Communipath novels.)

Betsy Perry
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy  "What is Truth?" said
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth                      jesting Pilate; and would
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay          not stay for an answer.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 84 21:09:48-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!geoff @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: sf novel identity query

>> I hope someone out there can answer this...
>>              .... included
>> the following elements:
>>     - A genetically-improved human species which has been
>>       "quarantined" from ordinary humans, because the
>>       ordinaries don't quite know what else to do with
>>       them. (They were an experiment that worked too well.)
They were called 'the Ler'

>> Please reply via mail...  adTHANKSvance.
>> W. Christensen

Sorry for posting this, but I don't know the path from ima ==>
apollo ('W.', couldn't you have given us some hints?)

Anyway the book you remember is:

  THE GAMESPLAYERS OF ZAN (for sure)  by  M. A. FOSTER (I think)

I recommend it to all netlanders who enjoy convoluted stories, I
couldn't have remembered as much as W did from one reading,
especially since it's the kind of book one doesn't put down until
finished.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 17:56:30-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Mini-review: Neuromancer

Mini-review: "Neuromancer" by William Gibson

An ACE Science Fiction Special

What do you get when you cross a pirate / hacker with a wirehead? A
fairly interesting book. Good technological extrapolation. Also, as
Joe Bob might put it, 40 gallons of blood, some kung-fu, a couple of
car-type chases ( in a tricky environment), some kinky sex.... Check
it out.

This author was included in a recent 'Best of' anthology (sorry. I
cannot remember where! The ravages of age...); title was "Black
ICE". If you have a short attention span, find and read this.

Fritz Benedict  (512)471-4461x448
uucp: {...seismo,decvax}!noao!utastro!fritz
arpa: fritz@ut-ngp
snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX  78712

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 11:05:37-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!abnjh!lute @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Looking for an out of print book (Fantasy)

I am looking for an out of print book entitled: Second Book of
Swords by Fred Saberhagen.  This book came out in Oct. 1983, and was
out of print by the time I heard about it in June, 1984.  I have
tried calling the publisher in N.Y.C. but they say they saved NO
copies of the book.  This is VERY weird because this is the second
book of a trilogy, and I wouldn't have even asked for the book if I
hadn't noticed that the "Third Book of Swords" was out.  Why would
they stop printing the 2nd book in a trilogy within a year, and then
come out with the third book, and leave the first book in print????

Anyway, none of the bigger bookstores in Central NJ seems to have it
now.  If there are any netters out there who happen to see it in a
local bookstore, ANYWHERE IN THE U.S. OR CANADA, please give me the
name, location and (if possible) the phone number of the bookstore
so that I might order it from the bookstore.  Or if any of you out
there have read it, and would like to sell it and send it to me, I'd
appreciate that, too.  Please though, contact me by UNIX mail first
so that I don't get a dozen copies of the book.

Thanks for the help.
                                        Jim Collymore

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 13:22:57-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!oliven!albert @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dune Movie Picture Book

I have heard from somebody that there are no 'Makers' to be seen in
this movie.  I realize the difficulty involved in creating special
effects involving giant worms, but I cannont conceive of a movie
version of DUNE without giant worm scenes.  Does anybody know more
about the subject ?
                                Alberto @ Olivetti ATC
                                Mentat trainee.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 17:44:12-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!unc!black @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat

   A group of us has been trying to figure out a good cast for a
movie version of The Stainless Steel Rat (by Harry Harrison).  We've
cast James Garner in the title role, with possibly Harrison Ford as
Inskipp.  The biggest problem we're having is trying to find a
gorgeous actress who is also talented to play Angelica/Angela/Angel.
Any suggestions?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 18:02:18-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!oliveb!oliven!hawk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: JAMES R. KIRK

>I always thought the name on the tombstone was wrong on
>purpose--like a clue that the things that were going on were not
>real, and by looking carefully you could see the flaws in the
>appearance of the town.

Wait a minute--wasn't this the second pilot?  I watched this one a
few weeks ago--no McCoy (was a doctor though), now sulu, I forget
about Uhura, different corridors.

I think kirk had his name changed, probably to make it harder for
the lawyer representing Dr. Marcus in the paternity suit!

   rick                             (Rick Hawkins @ Olivetti ATC)
[hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix]!oliveb!oliven!hawk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 7:19:00-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Space Seed ==> TWOK - (nf)

> The fate of the Botany Bay is never made clear in the episode.
> They just sort of forget about it.

No, the fate of the Botany Bay seemed pretty clear to me: When Khan
took over the Enterprise, he simply abandoned it.  There was a shot
of the two ships moving apart as the Enterprise pulled away.

But that doesn't seem to me to conflict with finding gear marked
"Botany Bay" on Khan's planet.  They could have moved a lot of gear
to the Enterprise before abandoning the Botany Bay.  And that gear
would likely have been sent down to the planet with them.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 03:17:34-PDT
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet>
Subject: re: conservation of center of mass of the universe

The center of mass of the universe is not conserved by the
conversion of mass to energy or visa-versa.  The real question
should be: Is the center of mass/energy of the universe conserved by
know laws of physics and acceped theorys?

Bob Larson <Blarson@Usc-Ecl>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #173
Date: 13 Sep 84 1231-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #173
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Sep 84 1231-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #173
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Sep 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:

       Books - Anthony & Asprin & Burgess & Dewdney & Elgin &
               Saberhagen & Jokes (2 msgs),
       Films - The Stainless Steel Rat & Buckaroo Banzai &
               Dune  (2 msgs) & Metropolis 1984,
       Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Hitch Hiker's Guide

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 11 Sep 1984 07:52:54-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Bio of a Space Tyrant

>Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 20:19:50-PDT
>From: Bob Larson <BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet>
>Subject: Piers Anthony
>
> ...Vol 3: Politician will be out eventually.  ("Soon")
>
>Bob Larson <Blarson@Usc-Ecl>

        I have heard that the book is due this spring.  Good series
so far.  I even read the first two books backwards, and Mercenary
stands reasonably well by itself.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Sep 84 13:04:22-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Aspirin's "Myth" books

The following are the books in Robert Lynn Aspirin's Myth series:
  Another Fine Myth*    Hit or Myth         Myth Conceptions
  Myth Directions       Mything Persons**
All of these books are trade paperbacks from Donning Press (aka
StarBlaze editions) except * which is also in mass market paperback.
** is /very/ recent (should be out any day now! -- has anyone seen
one yet?).  There is also a comix edition of Myth Adventures from
WARP, of which the first two editions are out.  They are black and
white with color covers and follow the story line reasonably
closely.  They claim that they will eventually publish new stories,
but at the rate comix publish, and if they go through all five
books, Aspirin will probably have written a few more by then and
they may never catch up....

Incidentally, if you are curious what Aspirin looks like, he is one
of the characters on the cover of (the trade edition of) AFM.  I
think he's selling sausages or something.  The books are very much
like sausages.  After reading each one, you are convinced it is the
wurst of the series.  They are also like drugs because you can't
wait for the next fix.

[Moderator's Note: Thanks to the many people who responded with
similar information:

"Jim Hester" (hester@uci-750a)
"Stephen R. Balzac" (LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC)
Bernard Gunther (BMG@MIT-XX)
Will Martin (wmartin@BRL-TGR)
Dragon  (Monica.Cellio@cmu-cs-cad)
RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl  (Jerry Boyajian)
Hank Shiffman (Shiffman%SWW-WHITE@SCRC-STONY-BROOK)
Susser.PASA@XEROX
Don Woods (Woods.pa@XEROX)
Bob Larson (BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet)
]

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 12 Sep 1984 05:48:21-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: END OF THE WORLD NEWS

> The third story is really about the end of the world.  A rogue
> planet named Lynx is due to make a destructive flyby of Earth,
> round the sun, and return to collide with Earth one year later.
> The story is a half-parody of "When Worlds Collide", with a dash
> of "A Clockwork Orange" (another book by Burgess, which was made
> into an equally depraved movie by Kubrick) thrown in for good
> measure.
> -jns

It's not just happenstance that Burgess wrote this "half-parody" of
WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE. He had been contracted to write the screenplay
for a remake of that film. The project later fell through, and
Burgess probably saw this book as a way to salvage his work on the
script. I have not read Burgess' book, but I've wondered how he
managed to avoid infringing upon Wylie and Balmer's (or their
estates') copyright on WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE.

By the way, if anyone has gotten a feeling of deja vu reading jns'
review of Burgess' book, it might be because excerpts from the book
were published in OMNI and PENTHOUSE last year.

jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84 09:57:54 PDT (Tuesday)
From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: A.K. Dewdney's The Planiverse

In A.K. Dewdney's The Planiverse, one of the students is named Alice
Little, an obvious tip o' the hat to Lewis Carroll.  Yet none of the
other names seemed to strike any chords with me. Did anyone else
notice any other references?  Some of the names of the Plainiversal
persons looked like possible anagrams, but I couldn't make any of
them meaningful.

Lawrence <LFeinberg.es@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1984 14:29:32 EDT ( TUESDAY )
From: <ALBERGA%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: S. H. Elgin, redux

Emendations and corrections to list of titles:

The Communipaths       Ace double, 441-11560-075,  1970
Furthest               Ace, 441-25950-075, 1971
At the Seventh Level   DAW, No. 10, 1972
Twelve Fair Kingdoms   Doubleday, 1981
                       Berkley, 0-425-05850-6 250, 1983
The Grand Jubilee      Doubleday, 1981
                       Berkley, 0-425-06045-4 250, 1983
And Then There'll be Fireworks
                       Doubleday, 1981
                       Berkley, 0-425-06290-4 250, 1983
Star-Anchored, Star-angered
                       DAW, No. 579, 1984
                       (May have been published earler by Doubleday)
Native Tongue          DAW, No.589, 1984

Ms. Elgin has also published a novelette, "For the Sake of Grace",
in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, May 1969.  This was
later expanded into "At the Seventh Level".  She also has a short
story, "Magic Granny says Don't Meddle", in the August 1984 F&SF.

She certainly has other short pieces, but I don't have the biblio.
info., She had already published poetry before 1969, and has at
least two books in popular linguistics.  (I remember something like
"Transformational Linguistics for the Beginner" -- wrong, but close
-- and "More on the Gentle art of Verble Selfdefence" -- which seems
to imply at least one more title.)

None of which illuminates the missing ninth novel.  I have written
to Ms.  Elgin, and will report on anything I discover.

Cyril

P.S. I have enjoyed everything she has written, and feel sorry for
anyone who doesn't like Responsible, though I will admit to liking
Troublesome a bit more.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84 09:21:24 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Looking for an out of print book (Fantasy)
From: Cooper.pa@XEROX.ARPA

I believe the entire trilogy has been published as one volume,
sensibly titled "The Book of Swords". This would also help to
explain why the publishers have apparently got themselves confused
over the series.

        Martin.

------------------------------

Date: 9 September 1984 04:01-EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: still more Larry Niven lightbulb jokes

I thought it was:

    Q.  How many Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb?
    A.  None -- lightbulbs don't "smell right".

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84 8:59:18-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!apl-uw!sam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke

 Q. How many Leptors does it take to change a lightbulb?
 A. Four, but only if they exist in a right-handed coordinate
    system.

   Sam the grinch

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 84 2:58:38-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

>   A group of us has been trying to figure out a good cast for a
>movie version of The Stainless Steel Rat (by Harry Harrison).
>We've cast James Garner in the title role, with possibly Harrison
>Ford as Inskipp.  The biggest problem we're having is trying to
>find a gorgeous actress who is also talented to play
>Angelica/Angela/Angel...  Any suggestions?

Diana Rigg could do quite well in that role. Also Sigourney Weaver
perhaps.

>From the spotlight of the center ring:         Chuqles Von Rospach
{amd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui    nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

And now... Mutual of Omaha presents "Penguins: Antarctica's little
clowns"

------------------------------

Date: 11 September 1984 03:55-EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai
To: Alfke.PASA @ XEROX

    Date: Fri, 7 Sep 84 11:58 PDT
    Re:   Buckaroo Banzai

    According to rumors I heard floating around Worldcon, this movie
    was removed from circulation because it was not doing well.
    Does anyone have any more information??

As of today, Buckaroo Banzai was still playing at the Egyptian
Theater in Westwood (Los Angeles, CA).  It's not dead yet.

 Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 1984 14:17:25 EDT
From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Dune Info

    Among the various free handouts at this year's WorldCon was
Volume 1, Number 1 of "The Dune Reader", which described itself as
the "...official Dune film newsletter."  While it's clearly a
studio-funded 'zine, there was a fair amount of useful info containe
therein, which I'll try to summarize for SFL.

CASTING
   Kyle MacLachlan will play Paul Atreides.  He's a 25-year-old
actor whose previous work has been all on stage.  During last year's
Dune presentation, the shots were intentionally framed to prevent
the audience from seeing his face -- perhaps the studio is planning
to revive the star system?
   Francesca Annis as Lady Jessica.  Previous roles include
Polanski's 'Macbeth' and the Widow of the Web in 'Krull'.
   Jurgen Prochnow as Duke Leto.  Played the Captain in 'Das Boot'
and the Nazi commandant in 'The Keep'; also did a lot of work
w/Fassbinder.
   Jose Ferrer as the Emperor.  He's best known for his lead in
1950's 'Cyrano de Bergerac'.
   Max von Sydow will play Dr. Kynes.
   Sean Young as Chani; you may recall her as the replicant Rachel
in 'Blade Runner'.
   Sian Phillips will play the Reverend Mother; a noted English
actress, but not well known over here.
   Sting will be playing Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen.  He's a cute rock
star (need we say more?)
   Kenneth McMillan will play Baron Harkonnen.
   Silvana Mangano (the producer's wife) will play the other
Reverend Mother; she's actually a better actress than one would
expect from her taste in men.
   Patrick Stewart will paly Gurney Halleck.
   Richard Jordan has been cast as Duncan Idaho.
   Linda Hunt will be the Shadout Mapes; I think this was an
excellent choice.
   And, you'll also see Everett McGill as Stilgar, Judd Omen as
Jamis, Dean Stockwell as Dr. Yueh, Freddie Jones as Thufir Hawat,
Brad Dourif as Piter, Jack Nance (from Eraserhead) as Nefud, Paul
Smith as Beast Rabban, Virginia Madsen as Princess Irulan, Molly
Wryn as Harah, and Alicia Roanne Witt as Alia.

DIRECTION/PRODUCTION/SCRIPTING
   David Lynch ('Eraserhead', 'The Elephant Man' [two Oscars for him
on that one]) is directing the film, his third.  The infamous Dino
De Laurentis and his daughter Raffaella are producing the film, but
insiders say that they're keeping their hands to themselves.  The
script was written by Lynch, but has been approved by Frank Herbert.
The magazine quotes Herbert in several places as loving the script
and the movie.

EFFECTS and CREW
   Director of Photography: Freddie Francis (Oscar for 'Sons and
Lovers', plus 'The French Lieutenant's Woman', 'The Elephant Man',
and 'Room at the Top')
   Production Designer: Tony Masters (nominated for Best Art
Direction for '2001'; also worked on 'Lawrence of Arabia' and
Papillon')
   Costume Design: Bob Ringwood, who did the same for 'Excalibur'.
   Fight Coordination: Kiyoshi Yamazaki (martial-arts expert who
also worked on 'Conan the Barbarian' and 'Beastmaster')
   Special Sounds Designer: Alan Splet (who's been on Lynch's other
two films, too).
   Mechanical Creatures Modeler: Carlo Rambaldi, the man who built
E.T., with Oscars for that film, 'King Kong', and 'Alien'.
   Supervisor, Special Mechanical Effects: Kit West, who won an
Oscar for work on Raiders.
   Supervisor, Special Photographic Effects: Barry Nolan.
   Special Optical Effects: Albert Whitlock, whose matte work won
Oscars for 'Earthquake' and 'The Hindenburg'.
   Miniatures Supervisor: Brian Smithies
   Model Builder: Emilio Ruiz
   Blue Screen Director: Stanley Sayer
   Special Effects Photography Director: Jimmy Devis

All of this makes me think that the movie has a chance of being at
least half decent.  Herbert's continued support doesn't affect my
decision, since he probably owns a point or two of the profits and
wouldn't be so silly as to cut his own throat.

Oh, and for those who are interested in getting their own copies of
"The Dune Reader", just write to the Dune Fan Club, 1680 N. Vine,
Suite 900, Hollywood, CA 90028.  Enjoy . . .

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 84 13:10:13-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cadovax!keithd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Dune Movie Worms

At WORLDCON '84, I went to one of the DUNE conferences, primarily
because I thought David Lynch was going to make an appearance.  He
didn't, but Frank Herbert did, and commented on the movie.  He said
that the worms were in the film and that he thought they were
everything he thought they could be but didn't show us any previews
of the worms themselves.  He seemed very pleased with the movie, and
that it was VERY true to the book.  Knowing Lynch, the worms will
probably knock your socks off.

When does the line start forming to see the movie?

Keith Doyle

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 84 13:01:23-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cadovax!keithd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Metropolis 1984

Several years ago, I first saw Metropolis at the FOX Venice ( or was
it the Nuart?) in L.A..  I was very impressed by both the movie and
the soundtrack.  Later I purchased a copy of the videotape, and was
disappointed to find that the soundtrack was different.  Now I find
there is a new soundtrack.  Personally, I prefer the first one I
heard, which was primarily piano and sax, a kind of Industrial Jazz
that fit the visuals well, and appeared to be composed specifically
for the film.  The videotape had an orchestral piece that also was
composed for the film, but I thought it was awful.  Does anyone
know: 1. what the jazz version music was, or 2. where a video copy
of the film with this soundtrack might be obtained?

Keith Doyle
{ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 84 9:40:50-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ag4 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Space Seed ==> TWOK -- (Botany Bay)

Au contraire, there is a scene specifically showing the ship falling
away from the Enterprise while Kirk narrates into his log that Khan
has discarded his old ship for useless.

Jeff Lewis
{decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 84 12:22:39-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!plus5!bob @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: the fate of the "Botany Bay"

> From: Stephen R. Balzac <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>       The fate of the Botany Bay is never made clear in the
> episode.  They just sort of forget about it.

     They aired this episode not long ago here, and I remember a
quick shot of the Enterprise pulling away from the Botany Bay,
leaving it a hulk in space.  I somehow have the feeling that this
scene gets cut by local stations to make room for comercials.

     Dr. Bahb                USENET  ..!ihnp4!plus5!bob

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1984 19:57:17-EDT
From: John.Wenn at CMU-CS-G
Subject: HHGTTG

This coming sunday (9/16/84), channel 13 will be showing all 6 TV
episodes of "The HitchHiker's Guide To The Galaxy" from 2pm onward.
(At least according to Pittsburgh Magazine).  This is a fairly
successful adaption of the first 6 radio episodes, which in turn
roughly correspond to the first book and selected chapters of the
second book in random order.  For anyone who is not familiar with
this masterpiece of SF-Humor, GO SEE IT!!!

John

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #174
Date: 20 Sep 84 1207-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #174
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 84 1207-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #174
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 20 Sep 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:

   Books - Asprin (4 msgs) & Heinlein & McKiernan & Saberhagen &
           Story Request & Dragons & Upcoming Books,
   Films - Dune (2 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai,
   Television - Star Trek
   Miscellaneous - Conservation of Mass & SF Cons List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 84 13:35:29-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!carlton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re:  Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23

The four Myth books (by Robert Asprin) are collected in a Science
Fiction Book Club edition.  You can get it, and 3 other books, for
10 cents plus approx. $5.00 shipping and handling if you join as a
new member.  Their advertisments can be found inside your average
prozine. (Analog, Fantasy & Science Fiction, Issac Asimov's....)

Further, Phil Foglio (who did the cover and inside illios for the
Starblaze editions) is doing a b&w comic book.  It is a worthwhile
adaption, interesting both for its artwork, and plot advancement.
Two issues are already out.

                Carl Hommel
Wife: What does "Yog-Soggoth went to R'leh, and all I got was this
       lousy tee shirt" mean?
Husband:  Campus Crusade for Cthulu - It found me!

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 84 9:23:00-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re:  Here's The Plot, What's The Tit

    It might be worthwhile to point out that your following
statement is somewhat incorrect.

>Further, Phil Foglio (who did the cover and inside illios for the
>Starblaze editions) is doing a b&w comic book.  It is a worthwhile
>adaption, interesting both for its artwork, and plot advancement.
>Two issues are already out.

    The comic book you are referring to is published by WaRP
Graphics, owned and operated by Wendy and Richard Pini (of ElfQuest
fame).  Phil is collaborating with them on the comic (he's doing all
of the art) but he's not really the one that's putting out the
comic.  Forgive me if I'm simply resatating what you originally
meant, but your article sounded as if you meant that Phil was
putting out the comic himself.
                                        Mark Cook
                                        HP-PCD
                                        Corvallis, OR

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 84 07:27 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman%SWW-WHITE@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: Bob Asprin's next Myth book

According to the folks at A Change of Hobbit in L.A., the next book
in the Myth series is due out in November.  Be warned, however, that
the publisher does not have much of a reputation for meeting
schedules.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 7:55:52-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Asprin

At LA Con II in the art show I saw a Foglio painting that was listed
as the cover for _Mything Persons_.  The painting showed Aahz and
Skeeve barely outrunning something(s) through a street.  I would
guess that Asprin has something in the publishing cycle for us
devotees.
John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84  18:26 EDT (Tue)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: The Green Hills Of Earth

It was rather considerate for Heinlein (or his publisher, whoever
got the idea first) to put it all together in one volume.  All of
the stories from "The Future Histories" have been published in other
collections - as I snobbishly reach onto the shelf and pull out the
(1958, 4th printing) paperback entitled "The Green Hills Of Earth",
which contains:

    Delilah And The Space-Rigger
    Space Jockey
    The Long Watch
    Gentleman, Be Seated
    The Black Pits Of Luna
    It's Great To Be Back
    "- We Also Walk Dogs"
    Ordeal In Space
    The Green Hills Of Earth
    Logic Of Empire

It is amusing that the chart of "Future History" is also given here,
but it only goes up to 2600 A.D. - "Time Enough For Love" still a
gleam in old RAH's eye... Of course, Lazarus is shown in the chart,
or rather, shown extending off both ends of it...

Trivia - give me the full quote about "...time enough for love".

!* Mijjil!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84 7:10:06-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxx!dpa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Dennis McKiernan

There was a spot in this weeks Bell Labs News stating that an
employee, Dennis McKiernan was the author of three SF books.  The
publisher was Doubleday and the titles are:

                Shadows of Doom
                Darkest Day
                The Dark Tide

Does anyone Know anything about these books and are any of them
still in print?

Dave Allen

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 15 Sep 1984 05:13:59-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: Saberhagen's BOOKs OF SWORDS

> From: Cooper.pa@XEROX.ARPA
>
> I believe the entire trilogy has been published as one volume,
> sensibly titled "The Book of Swords". This would also help to
> explain why the publishers have apparently got themselves confused
> over the series.
>
>        Martin.

Not true, unless the SF Book Club did such an omnibus.  Chances are
what happened is that THE FIRST BOOK OF SWORDS is in print in
*mass-market* paperback, but not in its original trade-paperback
edition. THE THIRD BOOK OF SWORDS may be out in trade paperback, and
still in print. THE SECOND BOOK OF SWORDS, however, may well be out
of print in the trade edition, and staying that way until the
publisher (Tor Books) puts out a mass-market edition.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: garrettk.dlos@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 13 Sep 84 14:39:29 CDT
Subject: Looking for a name of SCI.FI short story

I'm looking for the title of a science fiction short story its
author and the name of the anthology its in.  The plot concerns a
day in earth's time being bought by an alien race that markets
entertainment programs to other alien races throughout the universe.
They have purchased one day in earth's time to be repeated over and
over again for a thousand years.  (I believe that at the end of a
thousand years the earths inhabitants will be paid huge sums of
money, or eternal life, both,etc).  The aliens have broadcast this
offer to earth but the humans have no option.

The main charater is a man who begins his day by waking up beside
his girlfriend, arguing with her, slapping her, walking out, and
then finding an old lost love at the train station who will end her
day dying in a train crash.  He is a little sad at the thought of
repeating this day over and over for a thousand years.

He discovers though that with tremendous willpower you can change
one tiny facet or thought.  This is cumlative and so after some time
he is able to avoid slapping his girlfriend.  Later he is able to
tell his long lost love that she can avoid the train crash simply by
not getting on the train.

This leaves the reader with a happy feeling that once again we have
put one over on those imperialistic foes inhabiting the outer
reaches of unknown space.

Chris Beach (reply to garrettk.dlos)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 84 16:04:18-EDT (Thu)
From: Judi (dragonlady) <stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa>
Subject: HI!

Let me say that after receiving my first few SF lovers' digests, all
of which contained nasty slurs on Piers Anthony, I appreciate Bob
Larsen & Michael Berch defending him somewhat.  APPRENTICE ADEPT and
especially the XANTH books are *very* enjoyable reading, if only for
the unforgivable puns.

Now, I am a collector of dragons of all shapes, sizes, kinds, and
forms, and if any of you spot a *good* dragon book(*not* any more
bad medieval fantasy and *not* Anne McCaffrey; I've got all of
hers), I would appreciate hearing about it.  In case you haven't
heard, DRAGONS OF LIGHT is a fantastic collection of short stories
and poems, fantasy and SF, edited by Orson Scott Card.  A companion
novel, DRAGONS OF DARKNESS was due out fall, 1983, but I haven't
been able to locate it yet.  The former is worth reading, even if
you don't particularly like dragons.

Have any of you decided how to spell <bonzai, banzai> yet?

                        Judi (The Dragon Lady, et.al.)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 15:18:12 PDT (Friday)
From: Hoffman.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Forthcoming SF

Scattered gleanings from the fat Fall Releases issue of Publisher's
Monthly:

OCTOBER

K. Kurtz, 'The Bishop's Heir', Del Rey, $15
R. Silverberg, 'Gilgamesh the King', Arbor House, $17

NOVEMBER

K. Fonstad, 'The Atlas of Pern', Del Rey, $20
J. R. R. Tolkein, 'The Book of Lost Tales, Part II', Houghton
  Mifflin, $15
J. Williamson, 'Lifeburst', Del Rey, $13

DECEMBER

I. Asimov, 'Opus 300', Houghton Mifflin, $18
S. R. Delany, 'Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand', Bantam, $17
M. Randall (ed.), 'The Nebula Awards, #19', Arbor House, $17

JANUARY

S. Lem, 'Microworlds: Writings on Science Fiction and Fantasy',
        Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, $16

--Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 1984  23:35 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Macintosh Devaluation Manager@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA,
To:       <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Dune Info

    Date: Monday, 10 September 1984  14:17-EDT
    From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager at csnet-relay.arpa,
          <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet at csnet-relay.arpa>
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   Dune Info

        Among the various free handouts at this year's WorldCon was
    Volume 1, Number 1 of "The Dune Reader", which described itself
    as the "...official Dune film newsletter."  While it's clearly a
    studio-funded 'zine, there was a fair amount of useful info
    containe therein, which I'll try to summarize for SFL.

    CASTING
        .
        .
        .
       Sting will be playing Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen.  He's a cute rock
    star (need we say more?)

Probably. Sting is actually an above-average actor. His portrayal of
a loner in "Brimstone and Treacle" was (to me) very interesting and
complex.
                                        Defender of stereotypees,
                                        James M. Turner
                                        RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 84  21:30 EDT (Sun)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: Dune trivia - hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly

    I guess everyone's rereading Dune to have it fresh in mind for
    the movie release.  (I met two other people reading it in two
    days.)  Did anyone else notice the hidden reference to Poul
    Anderson?

Now, I consider myself to be an ichiban Dune fan.  Perhaps I am not
familiar enough with the works of Poul Anderson to have caught it -
it's been 2 weeks, I give up.

Whats the reference?

!* Mijjil!

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 05:30:43 PDT (Fri)
To: "Steven A. Swernofsky" <SASW@mit-mc>
Cc: Alfke.PASA@xerox
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai
From: Marshall Rose <mrose@uci-750a>

Well, maybe it's still playing in Southern California, but it hasn't
hit the East coast yet.  I hope that it gets here soon, after all it
did open a month ago on the West coast.

On another note, I read the book last night.  Although the style is
interesting (Reno, the narrator, tells you everything before it
happens), I didn't like it as well as the film.

The interesting part is that the book and film have different
accounts of Banzai's news conference.  Unfortunately, the book also
has a photo of that scene from the film which (naturally) conflicts
with the book's version.  Apparently, someone caught this and
(sloppily) "fixed" the photo to match the book's version.  Real
sloppy.

/mtr

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 84 19:33:47-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting
Subject: corolation

I was watching "Assignment: Earth" last night and heard something
interesting.  When Gary Seven asked Roberta Lincoln what she was
supposedly employed for, she replied :

"Research for a new encyclopedia (with that funny quizzical look of
hers) ??"

As us Asimov fans know, that was the Foundations official reason for
moving to the edge of the galaxy.

There is another thing to look for if you happen to be watching that
episode.  When there are just a few seconds left before the bomb
will go off, Kirk and Spock say something along these lines :

Kirk : "Spock, if you can't figure out how to work this thing in the
       next few seconds I'm going to have to let him (Gary) do it."

Spock : "Admittedly, it's a difficult decision."

Look at Kirk's face when Spock is talking.  He looks like he's about
to smile.  It's as though he were saying : "Why don't you say
something obvious Spock."  Oh well, I guess you have to be there.

While I'm talking about "Assignment: Earth", I have five
questions/comments :

1) Why couldn't Scotty blow up the rocket ?

        Scotty mentioned the possibility but that he'd have to move
        to a lower orbit.  It's possible that by the time the dust
        settled (with getting Kirk + Spock out of NASA), it was too
        late to move to a lower orbit.  Although, Scotty should have
        taken that into account.

2) How did the Enterprise travel thru time ?

3) Why did Kirk + Spock not get beamed directly to Gary's apartment
   the first time ?

4) Why did they Kirk only know about the history of the rocket
   and Gary Seven at the end of the show ?

5) The cat/human was definitely not in the credits.

        Questions #3 and #4 don't deserve answers.  Despite my
questions I thought this ranked in the top ten episodes.

==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
    (201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, maxvax, cbosgd, lzmi, ...]!
       pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 84 8:34:48-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!ethan @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: conservation of center of mass of the universe

Perhaps this belongs in net.physics ... but converting mass to
energy (or vice-versa) does not in any way invalidate the correct
generalization of the invariance of the center of mass of an
isolated system.  The center of *mass-energy* does just fine thank
you.

As to the center of mass of the universe, I'm not sure what that is,
or if that concept can be given any rigorous definition.  However,
the argument still follows if we consider the planets, stellar
systems whatever that include the beginning and endpoints of the
matter transmission as an isolated system.

              Ethan Vishniac

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Sep 84 01:35:07-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: SF Cons list updated

SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for
FTP.  SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.  CONS.TXT is currently 1322 lines (or
64,178 characters).

For those desiring a hardcopy of the list, a 50%-reduced size
version is available for 50 cents at St. Louis in '88 bid parties,
or 75 cents via mail from:

   St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid
   PO Box 1058
   St. Louis, MO  63188

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #175
Date: 20 Sep 84 1428-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #175
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 84 1428-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #175
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 20 Sep 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 175

Today's Topics:

       Books - Dickson & Heinlein & Hogan &
               Out of Print Books & Looking for a Book,
       Films - Buckaroo Banzai & The Stainless Steel Rat (3 msgs),
       Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Day of the Triffids

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 84 18:00:13-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Final-ly here

    Well, it's out!!!  Gordon R. Dickson's Final Encyclopedia...  I
just spotted it in a local bookstore (Von's).  I believe it is
published by Doublesday (don't shoot me if I'm wrong) It is
hardcover, 600 plus pages and ..drumroll please.. the page edges are
evenly cut!
   No, I didn't buy it.  I didn't have $19 on me at the time.

Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs  }
      !pur-ee!Physics:dub
      { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax }
      !purdue!Physics:dub

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 84 13:23:00-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice - (nf)

Yes, Job is another of Heinlein's books where pontificating to the
reader seems to be the main purpose.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

Yes, but it's such *fun* pontification. For instance, the list of

                ** START MINOR SPOILER **

"worthwhile achievments" for Alex <what's-is-name> (even he isn't
sure!):

        a) A federal law making abortion a capital offense.
        b) A federal making the manufacture, sale, possession,
                importation, transportation or use of any/all
                contraceptive devices a felony. No outs "for
                prevention of diseases only."
        c) A federal law placing gambling under federal
                jurisdiction.
        d) Community standards of the median-population city
                applying to all cities in a state.
        e) Progress towards getting tobacco defined as a
                prescription drug.
        f) Progress towards depriving schools not affiliated with a
                Christian sect of their tax-free status, possibly
                including Catholic schools.

and the "to-do" list for next years:

        g) Determine if there is a humane solution to the "jewish
                problem."
        h) Work on frustrating astronomers.
        i) Quit paying attention to "suffragettes."
        j) Separate schools for boys and girls.
        k) Restore the death penalty for Witchcraft and Satanism.
        l) The Alaska option for the "negro problem."
        m) Homosexuals - Punishment, surgery or something else?

I enjoyed watching RAH pontificate on the subject of religious
intolerance while his protagonist preached for the other side.

RAH also hit his two old favorites: anti-fascist and
pro-honor/responsibility.  I didn't notice these as much as I did in
NOTB.  Maybe I'm getting immunized?

He also displayed his sexist streak again - the female protagonist
was (smarter, more tolerant, less argumentative, more flexible) than
the male protagonist.

JOB looks so much like NOTB that I suspect that RAH has found a
formula he likes - and is using it in his books to sell his message.
It appears to work. I had trouble finding a place to put JOB down -
I failed at it.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 9:38:06-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!intelca!cem @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Book Review : Code of the LifeMaker

Title - Code of The Lifemaker
Author - Tom Hogan
Type of SF - HiTech

This is a "new" book (copyright 1983) by Tom Hogan that is set in a
future of about 50 to 100 years. The main plot centers around an
alien remote manufacturing system that has been damaged in flight,
and the humans discovery and exploitation of that system. The aliens
(they are never explicitly discussed) have developed a survey ship
that seeks out promising planets or asteroids, sets up an
intelligent factory, that then builds robots, that then builds more
factories that eventually become a production/extraction center that
then ship refined metals and products back to the home system.  One
such survey ship is damaged by a nearby nova and wanders into our
solar system and attempts to start the process on Titan. The nova
has erased/ modified some of the programs in the ship and the whole
thing doesn't quite work the way it should. What then follows is an
electronic version of evolution (with self modifing code of course),
the humans discover the system and some realize the potential of it
as a prebuilt factory with free labor, materials, and transportation
costs. Others take a more humanistic view of the machines that are n
the surface.

   There are several interesting characters, one of which is so
obviously a play on "the amazing Kreskin" that I had to chuckle when
I read it. I was a little disappointed in Hogan's handling of the
"electronics" on Titan, (this is Hogan so we have to have a sentient
computer right?) but the interactions of his characters came off
well and were certainly dynamic enough.  I enjoyed the book and was
glad something other that fantasy was being written these days.

Reccomendations - If you are like me and enjoy the "hard" science
type of science fiction I reccomend it.

-- Chuck
- - - D I S C L A I M E R - - -
All opinions expressed herein are my
own and not those of my employer, my
friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
{ihnp4,fortune}!dual\
        {proper,idi}-> !intelca!cem
 {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/
 ARPAnet    : "hplabs!intelca!cem"@Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 84 7:09:14-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!abnjh!lute @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Finding Out of Print Books.

In regards to my earlier inquiry on obtaining the out of print
(oopb) "Second Book of Swords" by Fred Saberhagen, I received this
recommendation from a fellow netter, on a place in N.H. that might
be able to help one locate oopbs.

"The local bookstore here in Hanover does searches for out of print
books. So far I've tried to get about five, and they've only failed
on one. [And that was a very obscure book.] You pay to oops, two
dollars for advertising, but if they find the book, it gets
refunded. [They knock two bucks off the price -- which is usually
dirt cheap anyway.] Something like the second piece of a trilogy
shouldn't be hard to find."
   The address is
Dartmouth Bookstore
Main St.
Hanover, N.H. 03755
(603) 643-3616

I hope this information proves useful to some of you out there.

                                        Jim Collymore

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 11:47:58-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxf!dma @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Looking for a SF book

I'm trying to locate a science fiction book.  I read part of it a
couple of years ago and returned it to the library.  Since then,
I've been unable to find it again because I forgot both the author
and the title.

It is set in the post-nuclear-war future in Great Britain.
Civilization and science have degenerated.  Representatives of the
government (called "the ram") travel around giving a puppet show
with propagandistic overtones.  A principal character in the show ie
"Eusa" or something like that.  From the context it seems like a
misspelling of USA.  There are a number of ritual sites located in a
circular pattern around the country.  In fact, the title way well
include something like "circle" or "ring" or something like that.
The main character teams up with a mutant of some sort.  That's
about all I remember.

Any leads to the book - title, author or anything else would be
greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

Doug Anderson
AT&T Bell Laboratories
houxf!dma

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 13:26:37-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!nsc!proper!dsmith @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai

        Buckaroo Banzai is reputed to be opening tomorrow (9-15) in
San Francisco.
                        David L. Smith @ Proper Unix

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 84 13:38:46 PDT (Wednesday)
From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: query - Cronenburg and "Brainstorm"?

The movie "Brainstorm" had very much the look of the director
[Walter?]  Cronenberg, who directed Scanners, Videodrome, and a
couple other movies.  This "look" was evidenced in the casting, the
subject and script, and in the high-tech institutional shots
throughtout the movie.  Can anyone tell me if he was ever associated
with the movie?  Was he the original director before Natalie Wood's
death put the movie on hold?

Lawrence
"What's a beast without an algorithm?"

p.s.  Moderate spoiler --> One more reason that Brainstorm is
worthwhile: The first major motion picture where someone dies of
smoking!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84 7:35:17-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

Absolutely, Sigourney Weaver would be perfect as Angelica (she has
that homicidal look she can put on, as in GHOSTBUSTERS).  Garner's
getting a little old... howsabout Daniel Hughes-Kelley, (last name
may be wrong), who does a nice job with a bad script as McCormick on
HARDCASTLE & MCCORMICK?  Yes, I know, a relative unknown (at least
he's not my relative [insert raspberry here]).

                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
    {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
 !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 84 17:45:39-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!akgua!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!bbane
From: rje @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

>>    A group of us has been trying to figure out a good cast for a
>> movie version of The Stainless Steel Rat (by Harry Harrison).
>> We've cast James Garner in the title role, with possibly Harrison
>> Ford as Inskipp.  The biggest problem we're having is trying to
>> find a gorgeous actress who is also talented to play
>> Angelica/Angela/Angel...  Any suggestions?

Don't you have the two actors mixed up?  Inskipp is the old has
been.  Obviously Garner should play him, with Harrison Ford in the
title role.

Angelica is a very difficult role to fill.  Gorgeous isn't the half
of it.  Angelica had *BRAINS* and no scruples whatsoever (My kind of
Woman :-).  I can't think of any established actress who could do
justice to her.

Regards,
                                Binayak Banerjee
        {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!bbanerje
P.S. Send Flames, I love mail.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 84 8:34:06-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!unc!walker @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

How about Sigourney Weaver as Angelina?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 10:33:15-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!mcnc!unc!walker @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting
Subject: corolation

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember the opening sequence mentioning
the use of the Guardian of Forever to send them back.

I also seem to remember that the Enterprise's deflector shields kept
them from being detected, and in the other episode, the deflectors
had been knocked out.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 84 22:32:32-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!mit-athena!martillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting
Subject: corolation

Obviously noone noticed the big lumbering star ship because the
Enterprise was testing out the cloaking device which had been swiped
from the Romulans.

Yaqim Martillo

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 9:58:27-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS (BBC Version)

          DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS: Thoughts on Seeing the Play
                         By Mark R. Leeper

     Some thoughts on THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS as I'm watching the
BBC version for the third time.  The reason that the 1961 film was
so bad compared to the book and the BBC version is that it missed
the point of the story.  The film producers saw the book and thought
"monsters." Triffids are man-eating plants and they could make a
monster movie.  They missed the point entirely.

     THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS is really about society and what makes
it work.  It's about what makes small societies successful so they
grow into big societies.  The comet flashes--if that's what they
were--that blinded all but a tiny fraction of society shook up the
culture and everyone had to start over, forming their own small
societies.  The new society game is played in rounds, as I see it.
In each round it gets successively tougher for a society to survive.

     In round one, we see if a society is strong enough to hold
together on its own.  In THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS the ones that fail
here are the ones that try to hold onto their valuable, sighted
people claiming need.  In these, the blind tell the sighted people,
"Please don't go; we can't survive without you." It is a sad thing,
but need alone does not suffice to hold people who are required.  In
round one, the societies that survive are the ones that offer their
valuable people more than just a sense of doing the right thing.  In
round one, the name of the game is cohesion.

     In round two, a society finds itself bumping up against other
societies.  Round two is all about competition.  There is
competition for food and resources.  Jack Coker's first society of
captive sighted people leading multiple groups of blind people was
cohesively stable, perhaps even fair.  But in round two, they could
not survive marauders with guns.  A few sighted people with guns
smashed Coker's groups.  Some societies work by militant defense,
some by isolation, but the society that cannot avoid being destroyed
by other societies obviously cannot survive.

     Round three involves natural enemies, particularly disease.
The society at Tynshin survived the first two rounds.  Many might
have died eventually by poor planning, but a nucleus probably would
have survived.  They died from the plague.  The defense here is
either the scientific knowledge of how to combat the disease or
being a society of large enough population that it can survive
attacks of its natural enemies.  This is one of the things wrong
with the old films in which everyone is wiped out but one man and
one woman.  These films end up with the two people walking off into
the sunset under the title "The Beginning." Well, it's the beginning
of a very short story.  Without a critical mass of people, a society
will die out through disease and inbreeding.

     For those societies who make it past round three, there is a
fourth round waiting, sort of a super-version of competition
involving a relatively alien, intelligent culture.  It is not until
this round that the triffids are anything but a minor natural
menace, killing off only the blind and the weak.  For the societies
that survive disease, this is a much more powerful enemy.  The
militaristic group we meet at the end of the novel have things
pretty well in hand with tanks and presumably captured medical
supplies, perhaps even doctors.  When Bill Mason lets the triffids
in on them, however, it is quite another story.  Bill's response to
this super- competition is to retreat to the Channel Islands and
plot humanity's return to England.  Whether he can do that or even
survive on the Islands we are never told.

     At any rate, there is a degree of depth and complexity in the
book and the play that makes THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS a much more
serious work than its plot makes it seem.  If you haven't read it
for a few years, read it again.
                                (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                Mark R. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #176
Date: 24 Sep 84 1305-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #176
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Sep 84 1305-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #176
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Asprin & Brust (2 msgs) &
                    Heinlein (3 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) & Niven & 
                    Dead Authors,
            Films - Brainstorm (3 msgs),
            Magazines - A Request,
            Miscellaneous - Rumors & SF/Fantasy License Plates

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 84 11:29:53-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!ames!bub @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Piers Anthony - MACROSCOPE

With all this pro-ing and con-ing of Piers Anthony nobody has
mentioned Macroscope, which I thought was just great. The concept of
the signal from space that would drive you crazy only if you were
above a certain level of intelligence was particularly intriguing (I
mean, what would it contain be?). Is Macroscope out of print (I read
it a long time ago) or did I just miss any remarks about it? I think
most of his other stuff is too similar. He seems to have a sort of
standard plot and characters and just changes the situations,
location, and brand of aliens.

Bub
{dual,hao,ihnp4,philabs,vortex}!ames!bub

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 8:04:02-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!moriarty @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Myth Advenures

As "The Science Fiction Book Club" has asked me to rejoin (they know
which side their bread is buttered on), one of my choices was a
4-in-1 collection of the "Myth" adventures.  One hopes that you
don't have to sign up to get the book...

                        "It's not MY GODDAMN PLANET, Monkey Boy!"

                                Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
    {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
    !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 84 17:48:00-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!lmaher @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Jhereg:  review, no spoilers - (nf)

This is an enthusiastic endorsement of dartvax!betsy's
recommendation of _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_, written by Steven Brust.
Note that the events in _Yendi_ (the second book) occur *before* the
events in Jhereg, and it's better to read it first.  I'm hoping
Brust will see fit to complete the cycle with 15 more.

        Carl
        ..!ctvax!uokvax!lmaher

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 84 21:52:00-EDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcsb!mcdaniel @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Jhereg:  review, no spoilers - (nf)

Ditto on endorsement of Jhereg.

------------------------------

Date: Thu Sep 20 20:36:31 1984
From: mclure@sri-prism
Subject: On Reading Mr. Heinlein

    I have done my fair share of Heinlein reading over the years.
Yes, he was an innovator. Yes, he brought SF to a new level of
quality compared with the old "pulp" SF. Yes, his plots were more
complex and interwoven, but...

        I think Heinlein's dialogue and characterizations are flimsy
        and thin compared to some of the better writers of the 50's,
        60's, and 70's. I don't enjoy a majority of his characters.

Blasphemy? ... Perhaps.  Compared to the characterizations of an
Ellison, or Varley, or Silverberg, Mr. Heinlein, in my opinion,
pales in comparison.

    And of course, next to some of the better writers outside of the
SF genre, he becomes a ghost of an author.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 84 18:52:25-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice - (nf)

> From: mwm@ea.UUCP
> He also displayed his sexist streak again - the female protagonist
> was (smarter, more tolerant, less argumentative, more flexible)
> than the male protagonist.

Has anyone else noticed that he started writing about intelligent
(redheaded) females at about the time he met one? Maybe she "hit him
with an anvil"? :-)

--bsa

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 84 10:19:34-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rick @ Ucb-Vax.arpa

I haven't read Job yet (the hardback price is pretty steep, and I
don't trust RAH to always write a good book anymore), but he
certainly has a line up of heavy recommendations on the back of the
jacket.

I'm sure Issac Asimov must endorse a lot of books, but I thought he
had no love lost for Heinlein.

Niven and Pournelle owe RAH one or two, so they're not too
surprising.

I _was_ surprised to see Arthur C. Clarke on there, though; does he
do a lot of this kind of thing?

                                            Rick Coates
                                            tektronix!iddic!rick

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 84 13:24:19-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Tom Hogan

Is this Tom Hogan, who wrote Code of the Lifemaker, any relation to
the James P. Hogan who has a work with a very similar title in
print?
                        -- David Dyer-Bennet
                        -- ...decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 84 12:28:39-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!unc!walker @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Book Review : Code of the LifeMaker

Is 'Tom' somehow short for 'James P.'?  I thought that James P.
Hogan wrote _Code_of_the_Life_Maker_.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 84 08:39 PDT (Friday)
From: Dewing.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: : Gravity on a Integral Tree

  In Larry Nivens book 'The Integral Tree' I don't understand the
'gravity'. In the tree tufts there is 'gravity' and in the mid-trunk
area there is zero g. How is this possible. The tree doesn't rotate
end for end, one end is always toward Voy.  Can anyone out there
explain it in a relatively simple manner?
       Thanks Ahead,
          John Dewing

P.S. I thought it odd that in the seemingly male oriented society on
London Tree that the Scientist's Apprentice was female.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 84 5:56:08-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: Wyndham's WEB

> From: hocsj!ecl           11-Sep-1984 12:19:19
> > I guess what started that trend was Tolkien's SILMARILLION.
> More recently there was a new "Fuzzy" novel by H. Beam Piper.
> There are whole series of Doc Smith and Robert E.  Howard books
> published after the author's death with the help of a co-author
> that the poor dead author never chose.

Methinks that you show a slight ignorance of this subject. First of
all, this trend you describe started *long* before THE SILMARILLION.
DeCamp and Carter, for instance, were hauling Robert Howard material
out long before Christopher Tolkien did the same with Dear Old Dad.

Secondly, The circumstances behind Piper's lost Fuzzy novel had
nothing at all with whether Piper thought it was good enough to be
published. He had written it, but never got around to submitting it
before he blew his brains out, because he thought his stuff wasn't
selling well enough for him to make a living as a writer. And as far
as the dead author never choosing his "collaborator", Jerry
Pournelle has written permission *from Piper himself* to write more
Space Viking novels (now if only Jerry would write the suckers!).

Thirdly, the "new Doc Smith" books are nothing of the sort, except
for SUBSPACE ENCOUNTER. The first Family D'Alembert book was a
novelette by Smith expanded by Stephen Goldin into a novel. The
further books in that series are *solely* the work of Goldin, though
there are claims that he's working from notes left by Smith, and
despite the use of the collaborative byline. The same is true of the
Lord Tedric series by Gordon Eklund. And the new Lensman books are
solely the work of the authors whose bylines are on the books.

As for the Robert E. Howard material, there has never been any
pretense that it is "new" material by Howard. In some cases, whole
stories found in storage have been published here and there, but in
most cases what we end up with is DeCamp, Carter, or whoever writing
a story from notes or fragments found in Howard's papers. And in all
of these cases, a collaborative byline is used.

I also think you are making a mistake in assuming that the reason a
given story was never published in the author's lifetime was because
it was an inferior work, and that the author recognized it as such.
In the case of Howard, it was simply that many of his stories
couldn't find a market. Some of the stories of his that found their
way into print in the last couple of decades have been a lot better
than much of what he sold in his lifetime, and I am glad they were
discovered.
        In the case of WEB, it could well be that Wyndham couldn't
find anyone who wanted to buy it, not that he was "ashamed" of it.
Remember, Cordwainer Smith couldn't sell "Scanners Live in Vain" for
*years*, but once it finally found its way into print, it was hailed
as a classic. Madeleine L'Engle tried selling A WRINKLE IN TIME for
quite a while before one publisher finally accepted it, and then it
won the Newbery Award as Best Chidren's Novel of the Year.

        Admittedly, there are times when I think it gets a little
out of hand, and often a "collaborator" doesn't do justice to the
original author's material.  On the other hand, many of these
"resurrections" are for reasons of literary historical interest,
such as, say, T. H. White's THE BOOK OF MERLIN. I can sympathize
with the idea that an author may not have wanted some of his work to
see the light of day, but I can also sympathize with his fans'
interest in seeing more work from that author. Are their "rights"
any less important than his?
        I don't mean to come down so hard, and I could well be
reading things into your comments that you didn't intend. But I felt
the need to debate your comments.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu Sep 20 21:21:23 1984
From: mclure@sri-prism
Subject: Brainstorm could have been great

    I thought this movie had potential but that it was totally
mis-used.  Remember the scene where Chris Walken and Natalie Wood
(husband and wife) discover what each other think of each other via
the mind reading device?  He sees himself through her eyes.  I
thought that was an extremely powerful scene, worthy of building an
entire movie around.  But unfortunately it was only a brief
encounter.

    The whole movie, instead of centering on science and that absurd
lab with its awfully designed equipment should have centered on the
breakup of the marriage of these two people, formerly in love.  It
should have concentrated on what they felt about each other and how
the machine reveals it to each of them.  Then, knowing what the
other person thinks, the breakup accelerates, perhaps into violence.

    I was enthralled when Walken put on the cap and saw himself
through Natalie Wood's eyes.  I still think this is the best scene
in the movie, when he is seeing what they did in the early days of
their marriage through her mind: the fun, the joy, the love.  And as
he persists with the mind reading device, he sees the decay and how
she perceives his worsening attitude toward her.  Great stuff!  I
wish I could have had a look at the script and made some
recommendations before they started filming.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 84 23:44:32 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Brainstorm" and Cronenberg

Cronenberg had nothing to do with "Brainstorm" at any point, as far
as I've heard.  It was a Douglas Trumbull film all the way. The
story was from a screenwriter (whose name I don't remember);
Trumbull discovered his script and, I believe, helped him adapt it.
Trumbull originally conceived "Brainstorm" to showcase his Showscan
process.  It went from studio to studio, always with Trumbull
attached, and he was finally able to make it as part of a deal
involving rescue work on the special effects for "Star Trek: The
Motion Picture".  When Natalie Wood died, it was largely Trumbull's
persistence that kept the film going.  "Brainstorm" is definitely
Trumbull's film, start to finish.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 21 Sep 1984 06:18:27-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: BRAINSTORM/Cronenberg

> From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA

> The movie "Brainstorm" had very much the look of the director
> [Walter?]  Cronenberg, who directed Scanners, Videodrome, and a
> couple other movies.  This "look" was evidenced in the casting,
> the subject and script, and in the high-tech institutional shots
> throughtout the movie.  Can anyone tell me if he was ever
> associated with the movie?  Was he the original director before
> Natalie Wood's death put the movie on hold?

Nope. It was Doug Trumball all the way. A few points:

(1) It's David Cronenberg.
(2) The only similarity I could see in the casting was the male
    lead Christopher Walken in both BRAINSTORM and Cronenberg's
    THE DEAD ZONE. Cronenberg tends to use Canadian bit-players,
    and/or moderate-unknowns. BRAINSTORM was star-studded.
(3) The only similarity that I could see in the story is that
    Cronenberg has a fetish for plots of a biological (or, more
    accurately, physiological) nature. It would be stretching
    things to say that BRAINSTORM had a similar theme, but the
    point *could* be argued.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Date: Fri Sep 21 21:58:44 1984
Subject: Magazine request: Cineflex (?)

My cousin is looking for the issue of Cineflex (Cinefex??)  that
featured Ghostbusters on the cover. It is apparently the issue
before the one now on the racks. Evidently the Ghostbusters issue
was very popular and sold out quickly.  None of the sf/movie
bookstores around here seem to have it & one is actively looking for
copies.

I am not familiar with the publication and so probably don't even
have the title right, but any information would be appreciated.

                                Michael Berch
                                mcb@lll-tis.arpa
                                ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 84 16:21 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Overheard at a Writer's Conference

1.  Twilight Zone should return Fall of '85.  Same producer as "Simon
and Simon."

2.  Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky" has been sold to Fox.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 22 Sep 84 02:46:44-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: SF/Fantasy License Plates

I have just gotten license plates for my car which say LSN1RLN.  I
am curious about other people who have clever SF/Fantasy related
license plates.  (By clever, I mean something other than a license
plate that simply says "SF 1984" or whatever (no offense intended to
the proud possessors of such plates!)).  Part of the fun of the
clever plates, of course, is figuring out what they are supposed to
say!  If people send them to me off-net, I will post a list of the
plates and after a suitable lag time publish a list of explanations.

leban%hplabs@csnet-relay (CSNET)
... hplabs!leban (UUCP)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #177
Date: 24 Sep 84 1415-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #177
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Sep 84 1415-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #177
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:

         Books - Hoban (2 msgs) & Saberhagen & Book Query &
                 Dead Authors & Jokes (2 msgs),
         Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs),
         Radio - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Sep 84 00:17:54-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA>
Subject: Re: Trying to find an SF book....

> I'm trying to locate a science fiction book.  I read part of it a
> couple of years ago and returned it to the library.  Since then,
> I've been unable to find it again because I forgot both the author
> and the title.

> It is set in the post-nuclear-war future in Great Britain.
> Civilization and science have degenerated.  Representatives of the
> government (called "the ram") travel around giving a puppet show
> with propagandistic overtones.  A principal character in the show
> ie "Eusa" or something like that.  From the context it seems like
> a misspelling of USA.  There are a number of ritual sites located
> in a circular pattern around the country.  In fact, the title way
> well include something like "circle" or "ring" or something like
> that.  The main character teams up with a mutant of some sort.
> That's about all I remember.

> Any leads to the book - title, author or anything else would be
> greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

> Doug Anderson
> AT&T Bell Laboratories
> houxf!dma

        There is no doubt in my mind that you were reading RIDDLEY
WALKER, by Russel Hoban (1980 Summit Books $12.95, ISBN
0-671-42147-6). One of the major points of interest of RW was its
writing style, which I can best show by entering the first
paragraph:

         On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt
     a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs
     any how there hadnt been none for a long time befor him nor I
     aint looking to see none agen. He dint make the groun shake nor
     nothing like that when he come on to my spear he wernt all that
     big plus he lookit poorly. He done the reqwryt he ternt and
     stood and clattert hes teef and made his rush and there we were
     then. Him on 1 end of the spear kicking his life out and me on
     the other end watching him dy.  I said, 'Your tern now my tern
     later.' The other spears gone in then and he were dead and the
     steam coming up off him in the rain and we all yelt, 'Offert!'.

     The entire book (220 pages) is written in this style; after a
remarkably short time you cease to notice it. Back when it first
came out, RW has highly praised by many critics outside the SF
field; I can't remember, but I think it won the Pulitzer Prize. (??)
It is definitely worth going to some trouble to find.

                                    Peter Trei
                                    oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 1984 12:03:24 EDT
From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager
From: <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Which Book Was It?

     The book set in a post-holocaust future which mentions "Eusa"
is, I believe, Russell Hoban's novel "Riddley Walker".  This book,
which won some awards and was a close runner-up for others
(including the Hugo), was one of my own favorites of last year.
It's not an easy read, because Hoban has very carefully worked out
all the details of the dialect spoken by the characters (who, since
they're descended from the present-day residents of the English
countryside, would be a bit hard to understand even now . . .), and
has written the entire book in this dialect.  Nevertheless, it's
worth it.
     Hoban's other works, many of which are worth noting, include a
number of children's books (esp. "The Mouse and His Child"), the
intriguing fantasy novel "The Lion of Boaz-Jachin and Jachin-Boaz",
and the recent "Pilgermann".  Overall, an important present-day
author of several varieties of fiction.

--Dave Axler

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people for similar
information:

Evelyn C. Leeper (ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl@Ucb-Vax)
Ethan Vishniac (hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!ethan@Ucb-Vax)
Donn Seeley (donn@utah-cs)
]

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 84 17:09:24-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!stuart @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Saberhagen's BOOKs OF SWORDS

I spoke with somebody at a local B.Dalton Booksellers recently and
got the following info (some of it unconfirmed) about the Book(s) of
Swords.

The publisher pulled the Second Book before many (any?) copies of
the initial printing were ever distributed.  Nobody I've talked to
anywhere knows why.

The (1) First Book is currently available in mass market format
(fact), and I assume, in trade format as well ('though you might
have to order it).

The (2) Second Book is supposed to be released by the end of the
year in mass market (regular paperback size) format (unconfirmed).

The (3) Third Book, which is currently available in trade format
(fact), is supposed to be released around the end of the year in
mass market format (unconfirmed).

Stu Friedberg
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@rochester

------------------------------

Date: Thu Sep 20 18:05:08 1984
From: mclure@sri-prism
Subject: book query

Does anyone out there know more about the book called

  How to Enjoy Yourself During the Decline of Western Civilization
  --- -- ----- -------- ------ --- ------- -- ------- ------------

I don't know who the author is. I am wondering if anyone out there
has read it and if so, what you thought of it.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 84 5:27:40-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: re: re: Wyndham's WEB

jayembee,

 >Methinks that you show a slight ignorance of this subject.  First
 >of all, this trend you describe started *long* before THE
 >SILMARILLION.  DeCamp and Carter, for instance, were hauling
 >Robert Howard material out long before Christopher Tolkien did the
 >same with Dear Old Dad.

That is probably true, they did.  However I am not sure I really see
it as a trend until Tolkien did it.  Such diverse works as MYSTERY
OF EDWIN DROOD and TURANDOT had unchosen co-authors after the famous
author's death.  It is a moot point when it became a trend.

 >Secondly, The circumstances behind Piper's lost Fuzzy novel had
 >nothing at all with whether Piper thought it was good enough to be
 >published.  He had written it, but never got around to submitting
 >it before he blew his brains out, because he thought his stuff
 >wasn't selling well enough for him to make a living as a writer.

What I had heard was that the last Fuzzy novel had apparently
actually been hidden by the author.  I don't remember the exact
story, but it seems to me it was hidden at the bottom of a box of
correspondence or or a stationery box or something of the sort.  It
was really this story that prompted my original comments.

 >And as far as the dead author never choosing his "collaborator",
 >Jerry Pournelle has written permission *from Piper himself* to
 >write more Space Viking novels (now if only Jerry would write the
 >suckers!).

If you look at what I said, I claimed only that Smith and Howard did
not choose their co-authors.  Who said that Piper never chose a
collaborator?  Any reference I made to Piper concerned the new Fuzzy
novel and that I said concerned a related trend co-authoring trend.

 >Thirdly, the "new Doc Smith" books are nothing of the sort, except
 >for SUBSPACE ENCOUNTER.  The first Family D'Alembert book was a
 >novelette by Smith expanded by Stephen Goldin into a novel.  The
 >further books in that series are *solely* the work of Goldin,
 >though there are claims that he's working from notes left by
 >Smith, and despite the use of the collaborative byline.

I still contend that they claim to be collaborations with the dead
author.  Smith's name is prominently on the cover.  Whether or not
they are really serious collaborations, the way the Conan books are,
is irrelevant.  They are still using the dead author's name to sell
books without the dead author's consent.

 >The same is true of the Lord Tedric series by Gordon Eklund.  And
 >the new Lensman books are solely the work of the authors whose
 >bylines are on the books.

 >As for the Robert E. Howard material, there has never been any
 >pretense that it is "new" material by Howard.  In some cases,
 >whole stories found in storage have been published here and there,
 >but in most cases what we end up with is DeCamp, Carter, or
 >whoever writing a story from notes or fragments found in Howard's
 >papers.  And in all of these cases, a collaborative byline is
 >used.

They still do the same thing, trade off a dead author's name and
exploit completists of that author's works.

 >I also think you are making a mistake in assuming that the reason
 >a given story was never published in the author's lifetime was
 >because it was an inferior work, and that the author recognized it
 >as such.

The phrase I use is "more often than not."  That may be taking some
license, since I haven't done a statistical study, but I do not
claim it always is that way.

 >In the case of Howard, it was simply that many of his stories
 >couldn't find a market.  Some of the stories of his that found
 >their way into print in the last couple of decades have been a lot
 >better than much of what he sold in his lifetime, and I am glad
 >they were discovered.

I do not say it is an invariable rule.

 >In the case of WEB, it could well be that Wyndham couldn't find
 >anyone who wanted to buy it, not that he was "ashamed" of it.
 >Remember, Cordwainer Smith couldn't sell "Scanners Live in Vain"
 >for *years*, but once it finally found its way into print, it was
 >hailed as a classic.  Madeleine L'Engle tried selling A WRINKLE IN
 >TIME for quite a while before one publisher finally accepted it,
 >and then it won the Newbery Award as Best Chidren's Novel of the
 >Year.

Don't forget WATERSHIP DOWN, CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES, and CATCH-22.
Each of them nearly did not get published.  Still, none of these
contradict what I was saying.

 >Admittedly, there are times when I think it gets a little out of
 >hand, and often a "collaborator" doesn't do justice to the
 >original author's material.  On the other hand, many of these
 >"resurrections" are for reasons of literary historical interest,
 >such as, say, T. H. White's THE BOOK OF MERLIN.  I can sympathize
 >with the idea that an author may not have wanted some of his work
 >to see the light of day, but I can also sympathize with his fans'
 >interest in seeing more work from that author.  Are their "rights"
 >any less important than his?

Sure they are.  Writing is a struggle and not all exercises work
out.  An author has a write to privacy on what he considers his
mistakes, even if his fans would love to see it.  I am no Ayn Rand
fan, but her point in FOUNTAINHEAD is well taken.  A creator has the
right to complete ownership of his creation.  [There are special
cases where a creation is already sold before it comes about... For
example, I have sold away the right to my software creation when I
came to work for AT&T, but it was my right to do so.]  The right may
not be enforceable for a dead author, but it should be.

 >I don't mean to come down so hard, and I could well be reading
 >things into your comments that you didn't intend.  But I felt the
 >need to debate your comments.

Feel free.  I don't agree with your arguments, as obvious from the
above, but the discussion was worth having.  In any case, I suspect
that John Beynon Harris would have probably wanted WEB to come out
under his real name.  It is closer to the quality of those books
that did.  Only the few books he wrote that were especially good
seem to have been published under the pseudonym John Wyndham and it
is unlikely he would have wanted WEB associated with books as good
as WHEN THE KRAKEN WAKES (OUT OF THE DEEPS), MIDWICH CUCKOOS
(VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED), THE CHRYSALIDS (REBIRTH), and especially
DAY (REVOLT) OF THE TRIFFIDS (I wonder what American publishers had
against his original titles?)
                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 84 10:33:34-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!davis @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke

>From: sam@apl-uw.UUCP (Sam Broda)
>Newsgroups: net.jokes,net.sf-lovers
>Subject: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke

> Q. How many Leptors does it take to change a lightbulb?
> A. Four, but only if they exist in a right-handed coordinate system.
>   ---Sam the grinch

    All right, we thought that we had read virtually all of Larry
Niven's works.  Please send a reference for this.

                                Jim Davis (hplabs!davis)
                                Paul Gootherts (hplabs!hpclla!pdg)
                                         Jim Davis (James W Davis)
                                {any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis
                                          davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 84 13:18:23-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!apl-uw!sam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke

Here is the original joke:

   Q. How many Leptors does it take to change a lightbulb?
   A. Four, but only if they exist in a right-handed coordinate
      system.

Due to popular demand, I will cite my reference for this joke:

  As far as I know, no one (including Larry Niven) has ever written
  about Leptors.  This joke is a non-joke, and belongs in
  /dev/soap/radio.  The subject header stated "An Obscure Larry
  Niven Lightbulb Joke", and I think that was an adequate
  description---the joke is a little bit "obscure".  |-)

---Sam the grinch
  Today's Uni* Proverb: "Control-C killed the cat."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 84 19:18:29 PDT
From: ewok%ucbingres@Berkeley (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai

        I heard on the radio that KFOG (San Francisco station) is
hosting a sneak preview of the movie on September 27. This implies
that it will be coming out in theatres soon, yes?

                                -ewok

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 24 Sep 1984 09:04:05-PDT
From: sharp%farmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Don Sharp, MKO1-1/B7 DTN
From: 264-6068)
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai in Boston

may have been playing for a month on the west coast, but it's just
now getting to Boston. This weekend (Sept 22&23) for the first time
I started hearing plugs for the sneak preview of Buckaroo Banzai on
Thursday Sept 27.  (Heard on WBCN, FM 104.1 Boston)

Don.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 84 7:28:05-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!noao!aquila!sharp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: HHGTTG

>.............  This is a fairly successful adaption of the first 6
>radio episodes, which in turn roughly correspond to the first book
>and selected chapters of the second book in random order.

Please !  The radio programme (since it IS English) came first, and
the first two books were loosely adapted from that.  The third book
is a complete departure.  The television version is to my mind (and
I heard the original in England, the very first time it was
broadcast) rather inferior.  In particular, the visualisation of
Marvin is poor, the character of Trillian was changed almost beyond
recognition, and they did a very poor piece of "second head" special
effects for Zaphod.  Oddly enough, the stage adaptation seemed to
work better, even though they used two people in one costume to get
the two heads !

Nigel Sharp [noao!sharp National Optical Astronomy Observatories]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #178
Date: 28 Sep 84 1051-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #178
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 84 1051-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #178
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 28 Sep 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:

      Books - Anthony & Brown & Niven (4 msgs) & Saberhagen &
              Story Request (2 msgs) & Dragons & Repeating Days,
      Television - Star Trek (3 msgs)
      Miscellaneous - SF License Plates

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 84 16:55:48 PDT (Thu)
Subject: Bearing an Hourglass (Book Two of the Incarnations of
Subject: Immortality)
From: Marshall Rose <mrose@uci-750a>

The second of the series focuses on Chronos, the incarnation who
controls time.  Time is around to ensure that "cause and effect"
works.  To do this, Chronos, like Merlin, lives his life backwards,
so it's "effect and cause" to him.  Hence, the person who assumes
the office of time leaves office when he's born which is before
(after) he took the office later (earlier) in life.  Needless to
say, this gives Chronos a lot of advantages towards the end
(beginning) of his term.  Unfortunately, Chronos is most vulnerable
that the beginning (end) of this term, when he knows virtually
nothing and all the other incarnations know everything that already
happened.  Needless to say, the Father of Lies, takes subtle
advantage of this several times to win his dominion over creation.

The book is a *lot* of fun.  Anthony spends a lot of time discussing
the paradoxes that can happen when Time (and others Time designates)
move about in time (with his hourglass, Time can do all kinds of
nifty temporal hocus-pocus).  There's also a lot of humorous
shenanigan's that Chronos gets himself into when learning about the
hourglass.  A few scenes were so funny I had to put the book down
until I could stop giggling.

I have one complaint about the book and one about the series: for
the book, some of the constraints placed on the use of the hourglass
seem to be artificial (i.e., inserted only to prevent the
protagonist from easily working things out).  Perhaps not.  for the
series: you'd think that the incarnations would have a manual
telling them all about their new powers and so on.  It'd save a lot
of times and mistakes (and make the Father of Lies' job a lot
harder).

/mtr

------------------------------

Date: Sat 22 Sep 84 02:39:54-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Night of the Jabberwock mini-review (non-spoiler)

/Night of the Jabberwock/ (****) by Fredric Brown, Copyright 1950
- recently reprinted by William Morrow and Co as a Quill Mysterious
  Classic
- also reprinted in a Black Box omnibus with /The Screaming Mimi/
  (****), /Knock Three-One-Two/ (**1/2) and /The Fabulous Clipjoint/
  (***)

/Night of the Jabberwock/ is /not/ one of Brown's science fiction 
stories.  It is, however, probably one of the most engaging and 
fascinating mystery stories you will ever read.

The protagonist of the novel is Doc Stoeger who is a Lewis Carroll 
scholar/ fan/enthusiast.  The plot of the novel revolves around 
elements from the two Alice books and as a Carroll enthusiast myself,
I found it very enjoyable.  The mystery is bizarre, but Brown is very
fair in the telling.  I was able to figure things out just as Doc
Stoeger figured them out himself, but not much sooner.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1984 10:21:40-EDT
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: re:  the integral trees

The trees DO rotate end to end.  This is also what causes the "wind"
effect.  I'm not sure about the reference to Voy though.
                       Jim

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 84 08:30:05 PDT (Tue)
To: Dewing.PA@xerox
Subject: Re: : Gravity on a Integral Tree
From: Martin D. Katz <katz@uci-750a>

     In Larry Nivens book 'The Integral Tree' I don't understand the
   'gravity'. In the tree tufts there is 'gravity' and in the
   mid-trunk area there is zero g. How is this possible.

The 'gravity' you speak of is not gravitational attraction from the
tree, but rather a tidal effect caused by gravitational attraction
from Voy (the star the trees orbit).  The tree is in an orbit which
is approximately that of its center of mass.  The end of the tree
closest to Voy is under a higher gravitational pull, but the tree
doesn't move toward Voy because the opposite end has a balancing
decrease in gravitational pull.

The people on the close end feel this higher pull relative to the
average pull on the tree, and thus have a net gravitational
acceleration (which they feel as weight) relative to the tree.  If
they let go, they fall toward Voy (thus, Voy is under their feet).
On the far end, the attraction of the people is less than the
average for the tree, so people tend to fall out away from the tree,
and Voy is in the sky for them.

The effect is also what keeps the ends of the tree pointing directly
toward (away from) Voy. The same effects are at work between the
Earth and Moon.  The Moon always keeps the same face toward the
Earth because of tidal effects.  In addition, the tendency of tidal
effects to push objects away from the center of gravity of the
moving object (e.g. the Earth) is what causes high tides when the
Moon is above and directly below (mere direct gravitational
attraction on the water would cause high tides to be only every 24
hours, not every 12 hours).

Hope this long winded note explained more than it bored.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 84 08:12:00 EDT
From: "Cyril N. Alberga"
From: <ALBERGA.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Niven, Gravity in Integral Trees:

Not having read the book, this is an informed guess.

Remember "Neutron Star"?  I believe the answer to the Gravity
problem must be tidal forces.  The "trees" are in orbit, but they
are not point masses, thus only their centers of mass are in true
free-fall, any part nearer the primary will experience an inward
gravitational pull, while any part further from it will experience
"centrifical" force, an apparent negative pull (relative to the
primary).

All of which has interesting consequences, I wish the book would
appear in paperback soon.

Cyril

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 27 Sep 84 8:31:51 EDT
Subject: Integral Tree "gravity"

The "gravity" present at the tufts of the integral trees is an
inertial effect, not a force at all in the sense that gravity is a
force.  The trees orbit Voy, and the inner end of the tree would (if
it were free) orbit Voy more quickly than the outer end.  The whole
tree (being a single object) settles into a compromise orbit with
the midpoint of the tree in freefall orbit and the two tufts
"straining" to break free so that the inner tuft could orbit more
quickly and the outer tuft more slowly.

The people living at the tufts experience "gravity" because the
tufts are preventing them from orbiting freely.  If you "fall off"
one of the tufts, you immediately go into a proper freefall orbit
and move rapidly away from the tuft.

It's a bizarre, beautiful concept that was utterly wasted on the
total banality of the story, which was a travelog with some
shootemup here and there to keep things interesting.  This could
have been another Ringworld, but I suspect NIven wasn't quite sure
what to do with his creation once he had worked out all the math.

It needed a high tech civilization and some aliens.  Niven doesn't
do well with primitives, and his human characters are usually the
weakest.

Sidenote: The tidal forces of the Voy system are the same as the
tidal forces which bedeviled our buddy Beowulf Shaeffer when he spun
around the Neutron Star, and the tidal forces from the ball of
neutronium which tipped off Louis Wu that it was NOT a Slaver stasis
box in "There is a Tide."  Niven is fascinated by tides.  One
wonders how much more he can do with them...

--Jeff Duntemann   duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Sep 84 22:18:14 PDT
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Second Book of Swords

> I spoke with somebody at a local B.Dalton Booksellers recently and
> got the following info (some of it unconfirmed) about the Book(s)
> of Swords. The publisher pulled the Second Book before many (any?)
> copies of the initial printing were ever distributed.

Well, I got my copy of it from my usual pusher of SF, so there would
seem to have been at least SOME distribution of the book. The book
does really exist, and is about the same level of the other two
(i.e. reasonably fun read, but nothing really earth shattering). It
is amusing 'tho that these books are (very distant) sequels to the
"Empire of the East" books, which I liked more.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 84 10:14 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Title request - Bullard/Malcom Jameson?

I'm looking for a book I read in 1967.  It is by Malcom Jameson (?).
It s a book of short stories about a character called Bullard.  One
of the stories has been frequently reprinted called "Bullard
Reflects".  This is classic space opera where Bullard is the captain
of a space ship in the Terran "Space Patrol".

Does anyone know the name of the book, or know where I can find it?

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 27 September 1984 22:20:04 EDT
From: Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa
Subject: Do you recognize this story?

I'm sure this mailing list gets a lot of this, but I'd really
appreciate a pointer to a short story with the following rough plot:

A young alien boy lives on Earth, and he is unaware of his origins.
Apparently he has a sense of ``winding number'', in that if he were
to walk around the block, he would feel a desire to turn once in the
opposite direction, to regain his equilibrium.  Naturally, he
attempts to suppress this strange behavior, and as he gets older he
is able to tolerate larger winding numbers---at the end of the day
he stands on his bed turning and doing backflips.  The purpose of
the sense is to orient him with respect to his home, which is a
distant star.

This summary may be considerably distorted, since it is second- or
third-hand.

Thanks much,
Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri 28 Sep 84 08:43:29-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Dragon NON-fiction

[Judi the dragon lady asked for stories on dragons a few issues
back.  My mailer barfed on her return address, so I'm sending to the
whole list.]

There is a book called "The Flight of Dragons", whose author
explains how it is possible that a creature that we would recognize
as a dragon really did exist.  The creature he describes is not
magical, but does fly, is physically large (although not heavy -
riddle me that), breathes fire, and would almost certainly not leave
a fossil record, so there is little point looking for it in rocks.
None of what the author writes can be proved (as the author admits),
but he makes a fascinating case, tying much of traditional dragon
lore into a coherent (and real-world possible) whole.  I'll tell
more if you find it interesting... but maybe you don't go hunting
real dragons.

        Enjoy,
        Larry Seiler
        Seiler@MIT-XX.arpa

PS - "Roadmarks" by Zelazny has dragons in it, in a sort-of minor
way (?).

------------------------------

Date: Sat 22 Sep 84 02:39:54-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Night of the Jabberwock mini-review (non-spoiler)

Chris Beach's mention of the story about repeating the same day over 
and over again for a thousand years reminded me of another story which
I would like to recommend, but I can't quite place it.  The title is
something like "Yesterday was Tuesday".

The story is about a person who goes to sleep Tuesday and when he 
wakes up the next day he has this funny feeling that it's not 
Wednesday.  It turns out that he somehow woke up "back stage" while 
"they" were setting up Wednesday.  It's a good story which I would 
recommend, except I don't know the right reference.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 21 Sep 1984 14:09:38-PDT
From: vickrey%coors.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans

>1) Why couldn't Scotty blow up the rocket ?

    Scotty couldn't blow up the rocket because that would be an
    observed interference.

>2) How did the Enterprise travel thru time ?

    The Enterprise accidentally returned to the year 1970 or
    thereabouts by passing too close to a neutron star and
    discovering a slingshot effect that covered time as well as
    distance (Tomorrow is Yesterday).  The Enterprise also
    discovered a way to travel through time when escaping a decaying
    orbit about a disintegrating planet (cold-start of the warp
    drive by an induced implosion in The Naked Time).

>3) Why did Kirk + Spock not get beamed directly to Gary's apartment
>the first time ?

    Kirk & Spock couldn't beam into Gary Seven's apartment because
    he erased the coordinate settings.  The best they could do was
    beam a party down within a thousand meters, and triangulate.

>4) Why did they Kirk only know about the history of the rocket and
>Gary Seven at the end of the show ?

    Kirk only SAID something about the history of the rocket and
    Gary Seven at the end of the show.  He could have known it all
    along, and just been playing out his role in history.  By this
    time the Enterprise personnel knew that messing around with your
    own history could be a short trip to oblivion (Tomorrow is
    Yesterday, The City on the Edge of Forever).  Actually, this is
    a good answer to 1) too.  Scotty couldn't blow up the rocket
    because he didn't blow up the rocket.

>5) The cat/human was definitely not in the credits.

    Isis didn't have any speaking lines (in her human form).  Extras
    don't get credits.

I never made the Foundation/encyclopedia connection before.  I like
it.

This is one of my favorite episodes too.  It was intended to be a
pilot for a spinoff series, but it didn't sell.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 1984  21:26 EDT
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman@UCB-VAX.ARPA
Subject: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting

    Date: Monday, 10 September 1984  22:33-EDT
    From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman at Ucb-Vax.arpa
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting
          corolation

    4) Why did they Kirk only know about the history of the rocket
       and Gary Seven at the end of the show ?

1) Apropos rocket, our gang only had one piece of data regarding the
causality of time travel, from the previous mis-adventure.
Therefore, they probably didn't bother checking, since their very
presence might have changed history (note: this is an official
coverup of an obvious writer slip-up)

2) The tag line "Mr Seven and Miss whatis lived happily ever after"
(paraphrase) which Spock says at the end is a tie-in for a
never-implemented spin-off NBC wanted to do. Shame.

                                                James

------------------------------

Date: Mon 24 Sep 84 17:27:02-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #167

        Re: James R. Kirk: the version I always heard was that he
was James R. in "Where No Man...", then Rodenberry decided that "T."
sounded better (I don't know when they came up with Tyberus as a
middle name).  -- Rob <sra@xx>

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 25 Sep 1984 07:27:30-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: License Plates

        I'm sorry I'm sending this to the net, but I can't figure
out how to send directly to those strange ( :-) ) addresses.  I
believe I first saw this in SFL but, there is always the infamous
GROK 42.
                                        /BEB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #179
Date:  1 Oct 84 1152-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #179
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 84 1152-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #179
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:

       Books - Bradbury & Brust & Fried (2 msgs) & Jameson &
               Niven (3 msgs) & Pynchon & Rogers & Wyndham,
       Films - Stainless Steel Rat (2 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 84 10:31:43-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Short Story Title Request (help!)

The short story about the man in the cocoon is called "Chrysalis" By
Ray Bradbury and can be found in one of "S is for Space" or "R is
for Rocket", I don't remember which.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 10:19:07-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #176

If people are interested in Steven Brust, they may want to get a
copy of his latest, _To Reign in Hell_, which may be one of the more
original treatments of the downfall of Lucifer and the Angels since
_Paradise Lost_.  It's available for $17 from Steeldragon Press in
Minnesota, in a signed, limited acid-free hardcover with illos.
This book is a great deal, both for its writing (which may be a bit
ambitious, but worth reading) and for the aforementioned physical
aspects.  Steeldragon also has spiffy editions planned for Larry
Niven and others.
                        wz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Oct 84 10:19:53 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: BOOK ABOUT A BOY WHO SPINS AROUND

I'll guess THE REVOLVING BOY, by Gertrude Fried (or something like
that last name).  The title sure sounds right.  I haven't seen my
copy in years, but I'm sure it's a staple in the used areas.  And a
very nice book it is, BTW.

Daniel Dern
"Machina Sapiens Pro Avia"
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  1 Oct 1984 06:51:39-PDT
From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah)
Subject: This version is grammatically correct...

In answer to the question about the story of the alien boy who
needed to do backflips, etc. I'm afraid I've forgotten the author's
name, but she expanded the story into novel length, entitled "The
Revolving Boy".
                                        andrew

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 84 14:18:49-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!rick @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Title request - Bullard/Malcom Jameson?

The title is _Bullard_of_the_Space_Patrol_, and the author is indeed
Malcolm Jameson.  It is a whiz-bang-shoot-em-up classic of space
opera -- makes the Lensman books look 2nd rate (deflectors up
Captain!  Doc Smith Fan Flame coming in).  I wouldn't mind owning
this one myself.  From memory, other stories in it include

Inspection -- Bullard as brand new officer on a crack ship,
   ends up saving everyone when a simulated crisis turns into the
   real thing.  (The inspection is carried out by teaming the crew
   with their counterparts from a rival ship as referees; extensive
   use of simulated casualties smoke bombs let off in the ship, etc.
   The story refers to this doubling of crews as being a US Navy, WW
   II era practice.  Anyone know if this was ever really done?)

White Mutiny -- Bullard gets rid of an incompetent superior
   who takes refuge in the regulations, by outdoing him in following
   "the book" -- and ONLY the book.

Bullard Reflects -- a real BAD pun at the end.  Good story.
   Introduces DazzleDart, one of the more interesting zero-gee
   sports that writers have come up with.

Blockade Runner -- Bullard manages some gee-whiz space smuggling
   by pulling deus-ex-techno-machina type stuff.  An ok story,
   nothing special.

The Threat (?)  -- In a postwar space navy, Bullard has to send out
   a colleague on essentially a suicide mission, backed only by his
   secret orders.  Bullard has by this time advanced out of combat
   duty into administration, which is rare for space opera type
   heroes (anyone ever see Kirk stay behind?)

The Bureaucrat (?)  -- The son of an old comrade comes to Admiral
   B., and asks for help in getting off of the coward's ship he's on
   now (a scam rigged up for the sons of rich men to avoid the
   draft), and into real combat.  Bullard explains that his hands
   are tied, and that he can only follow orders.  As one might
   expect, though, he can do a fair bit by only following orders.
   Ends up with a nice space battle description.

    I think there are a few other stories.

 Apart from the way Bullard ages, and moves out of the active end of
the story and into the administrative end, there are other nice
points.
 The stories were written in the 40s, and they reflect a sea-going
Navy all the way.  Guns are loaded by hand; aiming is done by huge
wheels with azimuths and such marked on them; the space torpedoes
need to have their explosives mixed and loaded just before
launching.  There's a pleasant old- fashioned feeling about the
spaceships which makes them somehow much more realistic than the
glitzy, positronic, miles of shining circuitry in the walls
spaceships which are the usual thing in space opera now.  I am
particularly fond of any spaceship which has "speaking tubes" as a
backup intercom system (watch old movies to see them in use; a few
Dr. Who episodes have used them also -- The Horror of Fang Rock, and
Enlightenment, among them).

Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706

"This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put"
       -- Winston Churchill

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 84 15:44:27-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Gravity on an Integral Tree

Larry Niven wrote another story in which tidal forces were used.  It
was one of the "known space" series though I don't have the title
handy but I think it was "Tidal Stress".

It that story the main character was asked to pilot a ship in a
sling-shot orbit that took it very near a neutron star.  The idea
was to collect scientific info during the near pass or something.
The reasoning was that since the ship was in free fall there would
be no gravitational attraction even at the closest approach to the
star.  The ship had enough power to make minor course corrections
but nowhere near enough to pull out of the orbit.

The previous pilots have been found crushed even though the ships
hull was still entact.  Needless to say the hero finds out that
though the center of mass of the ship is in free fall the two ends
of it are not.

I will leave how he survives a mystery.

                                            Jerry Aguirre
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 84 13:25:42-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc6!calmasd!gail @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Gravity on an Integral Tree

_Descent of Anansi_ by Larry Niven and Steven Barnes used tides.  As
did Niven's stories "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" (not "Tidal
Stress" in my copy).  "Neutron Star" at least can be found in the
short story collection _Neutron Star_.  (Big surprise, that).

        Gail Bayley Hanrahan
        {decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail
        Calma Company, San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 84 15:44:11 EDT
From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: ringworld

I've always disliked the Ringworld books and I'm glad some on in
v9#178 finally put their finger on it for me, although he was
talking about the tree book, not the ringworld books.  Ringworld is
just a boring travellog in a fascinating setting.  I wish someone
good would take Ringworld and do something interesting with it.

------------------------------

Date: 15-Aug-84 14:13 PDT
From: Kirk Kelley  <KIRK.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon

I can imagine why Pynchon would come across " full of pretentious,
self-indulgent writing ...".  Pynchon gives us a literary stream of
sensory input just like real life.  And, O what a stream!  My
experience with Gravity's Rainbow was as soon as I gave up trying to
connect all the details that might be necessary to a plot, and
started EXPERIENCING all the detail, I got hooked.  I liked GR
better than V.

So I have two suggestions.  First, try Gravity's Rainbow.  And
secondly, dont try to remember the details.  Just let them flow over
you.  Experience them.  It's a trip.

 -- kirk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 84 14:55:00-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Samurai Cat (very mild spoiler)

If you're looking for a healthy dose of excessive silliness, you
might want to check out *The Adventures of Samurai Cat*, by Mark E.
Rogers.  This oversized, illustrated book chronicles the exploits of
the great feline samurai, Miaowara Tomokato, as he seeks to revenge
the murder of his daimyo (lord).

Tomokato is a *mean* mother (bystanders are wont to utter "What a
stud!"), but is also the picture of *bushido* (samurai chivalry),
and takes on everything from armies of Porks (orcs) to Fenrir Wolf,
the Midgard Serpent, and Surtur the Fire-Giant with aplomb.  His
vengeance takes him through several adventures in
strangely-familiar-sounding places:

        Catzad-Dum (^ over the u), where he meets up with an old
          greybeard with a blue light on his staff and a retinue of
          8 elves, dwarves, humans, and short guys with furry feet,
          and battles disgusting Porks and the fearsome B'aalhop
          ("Give us a tip, my love")
        The Book of the Dunwich Cow, where he meets the Real Old God
          K'Chu (Cthulhu) and his sidekick Bl'syu
        The Pictish woods, where he and Con-Ed the Barbarian defeat
          the Porka Picts (th-th-th-that's all, folks!) and the
          evil wizard Thpageti-Thoth

You get the idea.  The book is full of punny names, in-jokes, and
sight-gags, and is a good time for light entertainment.  The
illustrations are almost as hilarious as the text.  Just don't
expect any literary classics!

Gary Fritz
{ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 84 12:19:19-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: John Wyndham's WEB

                            WEB by John Wyndham
                      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     A peculiar practice that seems to be becoming common is when a
popular (or even a not-so-popular) author dies, you stash his last
novel in a vault somewhere for a decade or more, wait for the author
to become legend, then publish the book.  The reading public is
supposed to see the book for sale and say something like "A new book
by Mort D. Ceased?!?  Why, he's been dead for years!  I gotta have
this book to complete my collection."  More often than not you find
out that this may not have actually been his last novel, but is an
earlier work that the author--perhaps inspired by the parent in a
Lovecraft story about a monstrous child--could not disown, but could
not release on the world either, so hid in an attic.  I guess what
started that trend was Tolkien's SILMARILLION.  More recently there
was a new "Fuzzy" novel by H. Beam Piper.  There are whole series of
Doc Smith and Robert E.  Howard books published after the author's
death with the help of a co-author that the poor dead author never
chose.  But this is a slightly different but related trend.  It all
comes down to the fact that when an author dies his name may become
more popular and he totally loses the right to say that one of his
works turned out wrong and should not be published.

     WEB is a new novel by John Wyndham.  These days if you ask me
who my favorite science fiction authors are, you will probably get
an evasive answer like "I don't have favorite authors, only favorite
books."  That's an easy out but it avoids claiming I like everything
by a given author.  Nonetheless, if you'd asked that question when I
was in high school, you'd probably get Wyndham as one of the top
three.  Wyndham never published WEB, and the reasons are clear from
the novel.  It's not that WEB is not an enjoyable book to read, but
when it comes right down to it, WEB simply failed to become a whole
lot better than a nature disaster novel like any number of writers
like James Herbert or Arthur Herzog write--perhaps not even that
good.

     The plot of WEB involves an attempt to start a Utopian
community on an isolated South Pacific atoll.  One major problem,
however, is that this particular island has been taken over by a new
mutated breed of spider.  They are no different than any other
spiders except that they have learned to co-operate like ants and
bees do.  The result, reminiscient of PHASE IV, is that they have
become rulers of their environment and when they are invaded they
battle for dominance of the island.  There is also a subplot of a
native curse of the island that seems borrowed from a grade-B movie.
Not that that in itself is bad.  THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS is
superficially about giant walking man-eating plants.  If that isn't
a B-film concept, nothing is.  Wyndham can take an unpromising idea
and make a good book out of it.

     Well, WEB isn't a *bad* book.  It is well-written with a sense
of wonder at the natural history of spiders.  After reading WEB, I
find spiders much more interesting creatures.  And there are some
interesting discussions of nature and the naivete' of looking at
nature as benevolent or as anything but a vicious game in which
humans are temporarily the best players.  WEB is a book written with
vision which simply failed to be sufficiently different from a hack
novel.  So Wyndham never published it.  And Penguin Books did when
Wyndham could not say no.  It's okay fare overall.  Completists
won't have too bad a time with it.
                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 84 18:09:53-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!oliveb!oliven!hawk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

>  The biggest problem we're having is trying to find a gorgeous
>actress who is also talented to play Angelica/Angela/Angel...  Any
>suggestions?

Gee, what about Bo Derek?

[Awk!  back, I didn't mean it!  put that flamethrower down. . . .
please?
   ARGHhh
         hh
           h
            h
             h
              !
[hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix]!oliveb!oliven!hawk

------------------------------

Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 16:18:11-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Stainless Steel Rat Cast

        Funny, I had always thought of Harrison Ford as DiGriz, not
Inskip.  The best Angelina I've heard suggested so far is the female
lead from "Risky Business", who's name I have forgotten.  She's not
perfect, but it's a very hard role to fill.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 84 10:25:01 PDT (Tue)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai
From: Richard Johnson <raj@uci-750a>

I was told recently by a friend that this movie was going to be
re-released around Christmas time on the east coast in hopes that it
would do better then.  Evidently, even though it has quite a few
devoted fans (like myself), it just doesn't seem to appeal to the
general public.

Along other lines, I haven't been able to find a soundtrack from
this movie.  Has anyone seen one?

Richard Johnson                        raj@uci               (ARPA)
UCI ICS Systems Manager                ucbvax!ucivax!raj     (UUCP)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #180
Date:  1 Oct 84 1218-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #180
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 84 1218-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #180
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anthony & McKiernan & Saberhagen & Seltzer &
                Sucharitkul & Williamson,
        Films - Stainless Steel Rat (3 msgs) & Films We'd Like to See &
                2010 & Battlefield Earth & Upcoming SF Movies,
        Television - Dr Who & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 84 10:34:48-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony - MACROSCOPE

         I agree. Macroscope is probably the best thing Piers
Anthony has ever written (what has he put out since then that's even
close?)  I, too, read it several years ago and can only remember the
intriguing split personality sequences and the hallucinatory battle
scenes near the end which compare well with Zelazny. Anthony also
wrote a nice story for Harlan Ellison's "Again, Dangerous Visions"
called In The Barn, which is definitely worth reading. I haven't
been impressed with his recent stuff. Looks like a classic case of a
promising young talent's degeneration into hackhood...

                                     Bill Hsu
                                     pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 84 12:52:23 EDT
From: GOLD@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Inquiry on Dennis McKiernan

After reading an earlier inquiry as to who Dennis McKiernan was, I
too became curious.  When I was unable to find any of his books, I
decided to take advantage of inter-departmental mail at Bell and
find out directly.

I have since spoken with him and he was good enough to give me quite
a bit of detail as to the background of his books.  Although I still
have not had the pleasure of reading the books, for those of you
that find them this may be of interest:

After being in a serious accident in 1977 in a motorcycle race, he
spent quite a bit of time hospitalized in traction and then in a
body cast.  To keep his mind occupied during that time, he decided
to do something that he had considered for some time but never had
the chance to do, write a book.  He wrote a sequel to the Lord of
the Rings that told of the dwarves attempts to regain their ancient
homeland.  Doubleday became interested in the book and entered into
negotiations with the Tolkein estate for the rights to a sequel, but
after 2 years of negotiations the estate decided against authorizing
a sequel.

At this point Doubleday asked McKiernan to rewrite the book and
remove it from the Tolkien world.  He did this, Doubleday liked the
book and intended to publish it, but by that point he had also begin
work on the prequel and suggested to Doubleday that they wait and
publish that one first.  It is this second work, which develops the
setting for the original story that has been published by Doubleday
as a trilogy.  It was intended asa single story, but was split by
Doubleday due to it's length (aprox.  250,000 words).  The correct
order of the books is:
        The Darkest Tide
        Shadows of Doom
        Darkest Day

THe first book, will be coming out about a year from now with the
proposed title The Silver Call.  It is aproximately 140,000 words so
there is a chance that Doubleday will split this one into two.

The author has expressed his hope that the books are not "just
another Tolkein ripoff".  I too hope that they succeed in this.  I
can certainly understand his desire once he developed a world as a
setting for the first book to want to do the pre-quel for furthur
depth.

If any of you manage to find the books before I do I would
appreciate hearing your reactions.

Cynthia Gold

Gold@Ru-Blue
hou3c!tpsa!crg

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 84 9:24:04-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!drlmain @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Books of Swords

I have read both the First and Second Book of Swords by Fred
Saberhagen.  However, I had to borrow them from a friend who
borrowed them from a friend (not exactly widely distributed).  Both
books were trade size and I've been unable to locate any copies in
the Austin area.  Admittedly, it hasn't been one of my top
priorities.

Hopefully with the Third Book out, we'll see a reissue of the first
two.
                                      Tim Meluch a.k.a.
                        Lohiro, Archmage of the Hidden City of Quo

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 84 7:25:07-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-hubie!kreidler @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Humorous SF

People who enjoy puns and zany humor as well as fantasy would
probably enjoy The Lizard of Oz.

The description on the back cover reads: "When an elementary class
sets out on a quest to save the world from disenchantment, their
adventures reveal paradoxes of the human mind and ways of awakening
the magic within us."

Characters include:

Lewis Carroll --
"I don't understand everything.  I just stand under the world.
There are others much lower who stand under us.  There are many
levels of understanding."

The empty-headed pothead, who has an empty flowerpot instead of a
head --
"Some of these guys will put anything in their head just to have
something there; but I'm waiting till I find something worth putting
in."

Prince Frog, the frog who turned himself into a price to make
himself lovable --
"It's so good to be loved, but then it's so comfortable being a
frog.  I think I'll go down to the river and croak."

Miss Fortune, one of the Mother's of Fact --
"That's be the emperor's new clothes.  There's a very special fiber
for making it visible.  Yes, moral fiber.  The emperor has to supply
that himself.

Some of the other characters:

the humdrum Humbug, beating on his humdrum,
Humpty Dumpty and the little blue wallflower he fell for,
Sir Real,
Francis Bacon,
the Redcoats,
Joan of Noah's Ark,
Mr. Charon, the ferryboatman,
Mr. Plato,
the Witch,
the Physicist,
King Arthur and the Knights of the Merry-Go-Round Table,
Shakespeare,
Daniel Boone,
Mr. Marx,
Crazy Horse,
the Weatherman,
Mr. Shermin, the fish who was a teacher before he decided he wanted
   to be a fish and then he knew how to make himself a fish, which
   not many people, even teachers, know how to do,
and many others.

A little radio station on Cape Cod (WOMR, Provincetown) has produced
a radio play based on it (three 45 minute episodes) that they plan
to broadcast soon and hope to distribute nationally over National
Public Radio.

There's also a children's play version available.

The book has been through three printings over the last ten years,
but can be found in only very few bookstores.

The best way to get it is directly from the publisher: B&R Samizat
Express, PO Box 161, West Roxbury, MA 02132. (617) 469-2269.  The
Lizard of Oz, by Richard Seltzer illustrated by Christin Couture,
Paperback, 126 pp., $4.50.

You could also order it from me over the net.  (I happen to be the
author.)

Richard Seltzer

Digital Equipment, Concord, MA     HUBIE::KREIDLER
over USENET                   decvax!decwrl!rhea!hubie!kreidler
over ARPANET                  kreidler%hubie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 1984 10:35:54-EDT
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc

Hasn't anyone else answered Chris Beach's story request yet?  The
story is called, "Absent Thee From Felicity Awhile..." by Somtow
Sucharitkul.  It's in The 1982 Annual World's Best SF, ed. by Donald
Wollheim), and is copyrighted by Davis Publications, 1981, which
means it was in either IASFM or Amazing, I think.  Chris has the
plot slightly wrong: the aliens are using the Earth's culture as a
kind of Junior High School Social Studies project for its children.
Also, the Earth people can communicate to the aliens by touching
conveniently placed poles, and have the hours every morning between
6 AM and 8 AM free to do as they please (since the protagonist wakes
up at 11AM on the day in question, it takes him awhile to discover
this).  Also, the girl that dies in a train wreck isn't an old
girlfriend, she's someone he meets during a 'free time' exploration.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 84 10:47:30-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Jack Williamson's DARKER THAN YOU THINK

                  DARKER THAN YOU THINK by Jack Williamson
                      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     All the bad news about this book (in the Blue Jay Books
edition) concerns the cover: it is out of keeping with the style of
the rest of the book, it cannot be carried around in polite society
(or even at work), it curls, and it bears the price of $8.95 for a
novel that has been around 36 years and is not particularly rare.
The good news is that once you get past the cover, the book is a
sheer joy.  David Klein did all the art and his interior
illustrations deserve awards.  The book is profusely illustrated
with marvelous scratchpad art that captures the feel of the Forties
and the dark menace of the novel.  Williamson is best known for SF
and when you come right down to it, this is a decent SF novel with
engaging "what-if" ideas.  But over that is layered a horror-fantasy
in the best traditions of A. E.  Merritt.  For years I've enjoyed
attempts to explain traditional supernatural creatures in scientific
terms.  This is one of the three stories I've recommended (along
with Matheson's I AM LEGEND and Kneale's QUATERMASS AND THE PIT).  I
particularly recommend it in this edition.  You can't tell a book by
it's cover.
                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 84 21:08:20-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!geoff @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

My vote is Sigourney Weaver for Angelica...  Any ideas for James and
Bolivar?

(nukes to anyone who suggests the Dukes of Hazard)

------------------------------

Date: Sun 30 Sep 84 22:13:40-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA>
Subject: Who should play Angelina?

        I pass this on from an off-net friend....
30-Sep-84 19:05:43-EDT,456;000000000001
Return-Path: <D-BURSTEIN@CUTC20>
Received: from CUTC20 by CU20B with DECnet; 30 Sep 84 19:05:39 EDT
Date: Sun 30 Sep 84 19:05:29-EDT
From: Daniel Burstein <D-BURSTEIN@CUTC20>
Subject: the actress question...
To: trei@CU20B

in sf-lovers the question was raised as to which actress should play
angelina in "the stainless steel rat".
   I believe it should be Diana Rigg, based on her portrayal of Mrs.
Peel in the Avengers.

danny

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 84 8:23:06-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!cepu!scw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

I vote for Fay Dunaway as Angelina. She also (as in Jane Seymour)
has beauty, brains, and can be quite evil (cf. \The {Three,Four}
Musketeers/), in addition she's a VERY good actress.

Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology)
uucp:   { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcrdcf}!cepu!scw
ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 3' 9.1" W 118 27' 4.3"

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 84 13:10:58-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Adventures in the 8th dimension.

How about basing a film around an aging actor, a chimp and and a
nuclear war -- Buckari Bonzo!

Gary
(hplabs,etc..)oliveb!olivee!gnome
Why walk when you can stagger!

------------------------------

Date: 13-Aug-84 02:30 PDT
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems Div. - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Preview For 2010

I just caught the preview tonight.  There wasn't a whole lot to it
but...I felt like it may capture some of the feeling of 2001.  HAL
and Discovery never looked better.  I can "get into" anything I see
in the movies, and I am looking forward to 2010 (good or bad)!
--Bi<<

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Sep 84 11:10:07 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Battlefield Earth" becomes a film (?)

Well, maybe it becomes two films.  An independent production company
that I'd never heard of before announced that it intends to make L.
Ron Hubbard's sf whale-on-the-beach into two films.  They're running
a contest to find a logo for the productions.  I'd offer to bet
anyone that the production company is a Scientology offshoot, but I
don't think there's anyone out there stupid enough to lose money
that way.  This also sounds to me like of one of those productions
that never come off, and it won't bother me one bit if I'm right.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 84 13:30:55-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!cepu!ucla-cs!reiher @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Release dates of upcoming SF and fantasy movies

"Amadeus" probably doesn't belong in a list of sf/fantasy movies,
and "Starman" definitely does.  "Amadeus" does contain speculation
beyond what is known about Mozart's death, but nothing that would
qualify as fantasy.  "Starman" is a real sf picture aboutt a
stranded alien, played by Jeff Bridges.  I may be misremembering
this, but I think Nancy Allen, Brian dePalma's wife, is the female
lead, a woman who is more or less kidnapped to help the alien make a
rendezvous which is far away.  I should remember the director's
name, but don't.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 1984  23:17 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Doctor Who

        For those who are interested in such things, there will be a
Dr. Who convention at Copley Sq (I don't remember the specific
hotel) next Sat & Sun (Oct 8-9).  If anyone is interested, I do have
phone number somewhere that I could send.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 84 9:54:43-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!dartvax!merchant @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting
Subject: corolation

Your answers:

1) Scotty cannot blow up the rocket because it would change history.
    Kirk, we discover, knows that the rocket is supposed to
    malfunction.  If it goes up and Scotty phasers it, it disappears
    in a flash of special effects and governments start asking nosy
    questions.  By having it malfunction "the way it is supposed
    to", they don't connect the Enterprise to it.  (By the way, I
    think this was mentioned in the episode.)


2) Possibly the same way they did it for "Tomorrow is Yesteday".
    (ie, hit a "Black star", etc...)

3 and 4 supposedly didn't need answers, so...

5) The reason the person didn't get any credit was that she didn't
    have any lines.  She just sat there and looked sexy for a quick
    shot or two.  Hollywood is not in the habit of giving screen
    credit for "Extras", no matter how good looking they are.

Which brings up my question: In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they spotted
the Enterprise on radar because it was flying low.  Supposedly,
"Assignment: Earth" was supposed to take place in the early 70s (ie,
near future) where they would have improved space tracking
facilities.  Why didn't anyone notice the lumbering starship up
among the heavens?

"What was that flash, Orville?"
Peter Merchant

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #181
Date:  5 Oct 84 1249-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #181
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Oct 84 1249-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #181
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Bradbury & Elgin &
                   Friedberg (3 msgs) & Ryan & Takei,
           Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Asimov at the Movies &
                   Starman & The Twilight Zone,
           Television - Star Trek (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 84 16:15:04-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!edb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Story Author and Anthology Request

Someone mentioned a book where the hero survives by accident and his
companions fall perpetually into the event horizon of a ?giant
star?.

I once read a short story with a similar plot and would like to know
which anthology.  Please respond by mail and I will post the answer.

A survey ship is approaching a black hole accompanied by a
telepathic girl and (outside the ship) an energy being they all
refer to as "Lucifer".  Lucifer and the girl (Evangeline?) 'talk' a
lot; he is almost her only companion.  As they approach the black
hole, Lucifer darts over to investigate and is trapped by the
gravitational pull.  The story jumps to some years later and to a
Lunar convent where the girl is now a novice?.  Every year she says
a prayer for Lucifer... whom she can still hear falling forever into
Hell.

The name of the story is I believe *Kyrie*; I do not remember the
author.

Please help!  All leads cheerfully accepted.

Emily Brooks            {...ihnp4!}akgua!edb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 84 12:17:00-EDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Story Author and Anthology Request

    I'd have answered this sooner, but I've been away from this net
topic for a few days.  The author of "Kyrie" was Poul Anderson, I
believe.  My copy of that short story is in "The World's Best SF of
1968", or somewhere in that time frame.  I will confirm both the
author and the book tomorrow (Thurs., 10/4/84).

                                Regards,

                                Mark Cook
                                HP-PCD
                                Corvallis, OR
                                ...!hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 84 14:22:00-EDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfclp!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Short Story Title Request (help!)

> /***** hpfclp:net.sf-lovers / dartvax!markv / 3:01 pm Sep 26,
> 1984*/
>     I remember reading this short story about ten or so years ago.
> I cannot now for the life of me figure out either the story's
> title or author.  The annoying thing is, I am almost sure that the
> story is contained somewhere in one of the many anthologies I own.
> So I'm hoping that one of you netlanders out there can help me
> out.  The plot went basically like this:
                        (plot summary follows)

Wasn't this "I Sing the Body Electric" by Ray Bradbury?

Gary Fritz
{ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Oct 84 07:50:45 EDT
From: "Cyril N. Alberga"
From: <ALBERGA.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Elgin, "missing" novel;  SF data-base query

The final word on the putative ninth novel by S. H. Elgin (credited
to her in the blurb printed in Native Tongue.  In correspondence
with Ms. Elgin I have been told that this is an editorial error, the
book The Communipath Worlds was counted as a separate work, when in
fact it is a reprinting of three early novels.

On to other matters.  I am attempting to design a data-base
structure to allow me to index my SF collection.  I am neither a
data base guru, nor a librarian.  I have a (very) rough outline,
still under revision.  If anyone has done this already, or is
interested (or willing) to comment on my structure, I would like to
hear from them.  I fully expect to be beaten up by experts.

Thank you, in advance,
   Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  1 Oct 1984 10:43:25-PDT
From: sharp%farmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Don Sharp, MKO1-1/B7 DTN
From: 264-6068)
Subject: Re: Do you recognize this story?

>From: Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa
>A young alien boy lives on Earth, and he is unaware of his origins.
>Apparently he has a sense of ``winding number'', in that if he were
>to walk around the block, he would feel a desire to turn once in
>the opposite direction, to regain his equilibrium.  Naturally, he
>attempts to suppress this strange behavior, and as he gets older he
>is able to tolerate larger winding numbers---at the end of the day
>he stands on his bed turning and doing backflips.  The purpose of
>the sense is to orient him with respect to his home, which is a
>distant star.

I recognize this enough to supply some more detail, but I can't
place it.  The story's protagonist was not an alien, but a human
with the distinction of being the first human born in freefall, in
orbit. He might also have spent some pre-natal time in freefall. He
grew up with this infallible inertial sense of direction, and nobody
could figure out how come. Then later in his life he suddenly
experienced a debilitating case of chronic vertigo. His directional
sense suddenly deserted him. Since they didn't know where it came
from in the first place doctors had no explanation where it went.
But by diligent research he found his own answer: a radio signal
from space had suddenly turned off. It was a galactic carrier
signal, that our hero had sensed with some hitherto dormant organ,
and the vertigo he experienced heralded a message from the
Benevolent Space Brothers.

-Don.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 84 14:28:24 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: reply to story request about "winding numbers"

Peter.Menta must be thinking of Gertrude Friedberg's
_The_Revolving_Boy_, recently reprinted after too long a time out of
print.  The boy isn't alien; he's human, but was born in zero
gravity.  No spoilers; it's a wonderful book.  A friend of mine had
been buying up every used copy he could find of the original
printing, thinking it an unrecognized classic and hoping to corner
the market.  Of course, now that it's been reprinted...

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 84 15:50:49-PDT (Mon)
From: wildbill @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Do you recognize this story?

> I'm sure this mailing list gets a lot of this, but I'd really
> appreciate a pointer to a short story with the following rough
> plot:
>
> A young alien boy lives on Earth, and he is unaware of his
> origins.  Apparently he has a sense of ``winding number'', in that
> if he were to walk around the block, he would feel a desire to
> turn once in the opposite direction, to regain his equilibrium.
> Naturally, he attempts to suppress this strange behavior, and as
> he gets older he is able to tolerate larger winding numbers---at
> the end of the day he stands on his bed turning and doing
> backflips.  The purpose of the sense is to orient him with respect
> to his home, which is a distant star.
>
> This summary may be considerably distorted, since it is second- or
> third-hand.
>
> Thanks much,
> Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa

It's not a short story, it's a novel. The title is \\The Revolving
Boy//.  I believe the author is female, but I don't recall the name.
It's been a while since I read it.

The boy is not an alien. What he is is the first human born in
space, the result of some unauthorized screwing around during a
space mission crewed by a married couple.

                                   Bill Laubenheimer
                                   UC-Berkeley Computer Science
...Killjoy went that-a-way--->     ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  2 Oct 1984 09:38:55-PDT
From: mccoy%orc.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gary McCoy 247-2047)
Subject: Adolescence Of P-1 (SPOILER)

THE FOLLOWING DISCUSSES THE ENDING  OF THE BOOK
THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1.

          *****************SPOLIER WARNING****************

The ending is the book The Adolescence of P-1 by Thomas J. Ryan has
intrigued me for some time. The first time through the book, I was
unable to translate the last two words, however, my wife has given
me what I believe to be the answer.

I will refresh your memory. (Are you still reading this if you
haven't read the book?) Linda has just typed the letters 'p1' on
Gregory's old computer console at the university he attended.  As
she is leaving, the following response is typed:

                OOLCAY ITAY

My wife tells me this is 'pig Latin' (funny name for an encoding
method). Removing the AY's and taking the C and moving it to the
beginning of the first word we have:

                COOL IT

This would seen to be an appropriate ending to the book, meaning
that p-1 has survived, and is hiding out (or what ever a computer
program does) as Gregory had once instructed.

My question is this, am I the only person who had trouble
translating the ending of the book. Pig Latin? I cannot remember any
other reference to this in the book.

Gary McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Oct 84 03:26:07-PDT
From: Bob Larson <Blarson@usc-ecl>
Subject: Mirror friend, Mirror Foe / George Takei & Robert Asprin

This is an enjoyable book about an oriental sword master and his
robot sidekick.  A quick, fun read without as many puns as some of
Asprin's other books.  (Myth adventures)

I first read this book a few years ago and eventually picked up a
copy for myself used.

My question: Has George Takei written any other books?

Mirror Friend, Mirror Foe  George Takei & Robert Asprin
Playboy press  December 1979   Isbn: 0-872-16581-7
[1979 price: $1.95]

(Yes, Trekies, it is the same George Takei.)

Bob Larson <Blarson@usc-ecl>

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 84 16:23:18-EDT (Thu)
From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai

I saw a preview for Buckaroo Banzai in the Washington, D. C.  area
this weekend.  I guess it's working its way in this direction!

                                        Judi

------------------------------

Date: Wed 3 Oct 84 02:16:33-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai

Dunno what's happening elsewhere, but BUCKAROO BANZAI opened here in
Austin last week.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 84 14:17:00-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Asimov at the movies

According to the Oct issue of Starlog, Peter (Final Countdown)
Douglas is working on a adapation of Asimovs "End of Eternity". He
is also working on a remake of "The day the Earth stood still".

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Oct 84 15:40 MST
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Starman
Reply-to: Lippard@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA

The director is John Carpenter.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 84 21:14:51-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Twilight Zone

For those of you who have SHOWTIME, they're showing the TZ movie
this month, and this Thursday (Oct. 4) they're giving us a treat
before the movie runs at 7pm (Central time).  At 6:30, they're
showing "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" as a prologue to the film.
This is one of those 4 or 5 shows that are not in syndication.

I have also heard from a friend that WGN (Chicago) is going to pull
out those un-syndicated shows and show them.  I haven't heard
anything about this, though, I haven't been watching TZ on WGN
lately.  I assume they'll have ads to this effect around and during
TZ when they are showing it.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 84 18:45:25-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Yesterday, etc.

Regarding the episode where the Enterprise travels back in time and
accidentally intercepts Gary 7.

If more people would LISTEN to those captain's log entries at the
beginning of the show! The captain starts out by saying:

    Using the sling-shot principle the Enterprise has traveled back
    in time to observe history ....  and is currently in EXTENDED
    orbit using DEFLECTORS to avoid detection.

Remember all that junk from Scotty about there "still being time to
descend low enough to blast the missile".  Knowing what we do about
the range of the Enterprise's phasers do you think she was only a few
thousand miles up!

As to detection: If we, using 20th century technology, can develop
the stealth bomber don't you think the Enterprise could avoid
detection by some "primitive radar".

I thought this show was interesting in that it is one of the few
that uses the discoveries made in previous shows.  I mean how about
the one where Spock's brain is stolen and used as a environmental
control computer.  In another show we see the previous captain of
the Enterprise paralyzed.  His brain in working order, but unable to
speak or move.  If the technology existed to interface to Spock's
disembodied brain, why not the other man's.  I am sure all of us can
think of discoveries on one show that could have solved the problems
in the next.
                                            Jerry Aguirre
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Oct 84 12:31:34 edt
From: Bruce Kaufman <kaufman@nrl-css>
Subject: Assignment Earth



>> Which brings up my question: In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they
>> spotted the Enterprise on radar because it was flying low.
>> Supposedly, "Assignment: Earth" was supposed to take place in the
>> early 70s (ie, near future) where they would have improved space
>> tracking facilities.  Why didn't anyone notice the lumbering
>> starship up among the heavens?

If my recollection was correct, I believe that it was stated in the
opening "Captain's report" that the deflector screens were being
used to make the Enterprise "invisible" to the old-style Earth
sensors.

By-the-way: for those in the D.C. area who were less than thrilled
with WTTV taking the 5:00 weekly time slot of ST and replacing it
with a single Saturday 10:00 AM showing, take heed.  Channel 45
plays ST at 6:00 on weekdays.  There really IS a God!

LLAP, Barney K.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 1984  12:15 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting

    Which brings up my question: In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they
    spotted the Enterprise on radar because it was flying low.
    Supposedly, "Assignment: Earth" was supposed to take place in
    the early 70s (ie, near future) where they would have improved
    space tracking facilities.  Why didn't anyone notice the
    lumbering starship up among the heavens?

In "Tomorrow is Yesterday", they were able to spot the Enterprise
with radar because the deflectors were not working.  In "Assignment:
Earth" they were, and were thus able to hide from such primitive
devices as radar.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Oct 84 13:14 EDT
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #180

In regard to recent Star trek Questions:

As Stated, Scotty could have phasered it, but this would be noticed.

The Time travel was achieved using the Light Speed Breakaway Factor.
I guess this is based on the method Spock/Scott used to return
through time after hitting the black hole.

The Enterprise was not detected as it had its Shields up.  After
hitting the black hole, the shields (and most everything else) was
down.  Spock states that 'Mr.  Scott now has the shields up, which
will prevent us from further being detected' (or something to this
effect).

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #182
Date:  8 Oct 84 1215-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #182
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 84 1215-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #182
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 182

Today's Topics:

  Books - Anderson (3 msgs) & Asprin & Brust & Jameson (2 msgs) &
          Ryan (2 msgs) & Zelazney & Collaborations & "Valentina",
  Films - Buckaroo Banzai & The Stainless Steel Rat,
  Television - Star Trek (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Oct 1984 10:26:31-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: "Kyrie" request

> A survey ship is approaching a black hole accompanied by a
> telepathic girl and (outside the ship) an energy being they all
> refer to as "Lucifer".  Lucifer and the girl (Evangeline?) 'talk'
> a lot; he is almost her only companion.  As they approach the
> black hole, Lucifer darts over to investigate and is trapped by
> the gravitational pull.  The story jumps to some years later and
> to a Lunar convent where the girl is now a novice?.  Every year
> she says a prayer for Lucifer... whom she can still hear falling
> forever into Hell.
>
> The name of the story is I believe *Kyrie*; I do not remember the
> author.
>
> Emily Brooks          {...ihnp4!}akgua!edb

The story is, as you say, "Kyrie"; the author is Poul Anderson.  It
was first published in an anthology of original stories:

        THE FARTHEST REACHES, edited by Joseph Elder.

It has since appeared in:

        EXPLORERS OF SPACE, edited by Robert Silverberg
        UNIVERSE AHEAD, edited by Sylvia Engdahl & Rick Roberson
        WORLD'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION: 1969, edited by Donald A.
                Wollheim and Terry Carr
and     THE BEST OF POUL ANDERSON

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 8 Oct 84 10:17:17 EDT
Subject: KYRIE

Poul Anderson's "Kyrie" is also in an anthology called "Black Holes"
which I suspect (book is not close to hand) was edited by Jerry
Pournelle.  It's about five years old, and I remember it being much
duller than it should have been.  I dislike themed anthologies; they
contain so few surprises.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 84 13:28:14-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!rick @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Obscure Poul Anderson books (Trygve Yamamura stories)

Poul Anderson wrote several stories in the late 50s-early 60s
concerning one Trygve Yamamura, a half-Norwegian, half-Japanese
detective in Los Angeles.  I believe the title of one was "Death in
Black Letter."  The copy I read was stolen from my hometown library
years ago, so I've never been able to reread it.
         What I mostly remember is a mix of the hard-boiled
detective genre with some of the delight in life (classical music,
beer, martial arts, counter-culture people) that is typical of
characters onto whom Anderson appears to be projecting himself.
Yamamura was an unusual character, but very enjoyable.
        Does anyone know what the other stories were, and if these
have ever been reprinted elsewhere?

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness,
   starving hysterical naked...."  -- Allen Ginsberg, "Howl"
Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 84 17:46:20-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxj!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Asprin books

For all out there who are interested in Asprin's "Myth*" books, you
may also be interested in..."Mythadventures", the comic book!  I'm
not sure who publishes this; I think it's an independent company; I
can check if anyone wants me to. Asprin is credited with plotting
the thing; as far as I could tell at first skim, it follows the plot
of the first book pretty closely.  The drawing is cartoon; it looks
like the artist is trying to capture the spirit of Freas at his most
whimsical, although (alas) it's not done by Freas, of course.

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Oct 84 12:48:14 cdt
From: ihnp4!hyper!brust@Berkeley (Steven Brust)
Subject: Here I am

For some reason, someone suggested that I let you people know that
I'm on the net.  Well, er, I am.  I've been seeing some of the
reviews of my stuff that are forwarded to me, and like what I've
seen so far.  I hope my being here isn't going to make anyone
self-concious about saying what trash I write, or whatever.  I mean,
shucks....

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 84 11:43:56 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: sundry things

Bullard of the Space Patrol ( which I have been trying to find for a
while) is not quite as naval as was pointed out.  The two main
weapons used in the Vindictive were Mark XX Kackatrons(sp) . The
mark XXs were basically atomic bomb projectors which built up a
charge and then threw the unit . Their only problem was the time
they took to recharge and their power drain.

The second weapon used was called a HELL BORE and consisted of a
basic 'death ray type weapon' as used in a newer class of ships.

alex <latzko@ru-blue>

The opinions expressed herein are strictly my own, and not the
thought processes of my employers

1.  Bring back barberella.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 84 6:23:55-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Bullard/Jameson

I haven't yet seen the query about these stories, but I've seen a
response summarizing many of them; it brings back memories.  I
really liked them also.  I think I read them in two hardcover
volumes from the public library; I've never owned them.  I don't
suppose there's ever been a paperback edition?  (Incidentally, this
is one reason I view getting recreational reading from libraries
with suspicion; that library is now 1500 miles away, and the local
one doesn't have Bullard.)

I confess to liking Doc Smith's Lensman series somewhat better than
Bullard; possibly partly because there was so much MORE of it.  In
fairness, and while still avoiding flamage, I must point out that
even Kimball Kinnison becomes an administrator by the end of the
series.
                        -- David Dyer-Bennet
                        -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 06 Oct 84 00:30:46 PDT (Sat)
To: mccoy%orc.DEC@decwrl
Subject: Re: Adolescence Of P-1 (SPOILER)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

   "Pig Latin" is a joke, moderately commonly known.  Pretending to
be another language, it simply takes each English word, moves the
first consonant (if any) to the end, and appends "ay".  If the first
letter is not a consonant, it just appends "ay".  This is the only
modification it makes.  I assume it works for most other languages
as well as (or as badly as) for English.  P1 used it as people
sometimes will who are trying to be secretive (pretty useless when
it's commonly known).  It was, as you say, trying to hide away in
Waterloo's 370 (from what little I've heard of OS360, P1 may even
have had a good chance of succeeding).

    Some cereal company (I don't known which and I certainly don't
care) used it in its advertising campaign, years ago now, and I
suspect that spread it around a good deal.

    On to trivia even less important ...

                                        A. Milne
                                        ETC, UC Irvine.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  8 Oct 1984 07:01:19-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P-1 ** SPOILER

          *************** SPOILER WARNING ***************

OOLCAY ITAY does appear to be Pig Latin.  If so, it fits in quite
nicely with the title of the book, as Pig Latin is (or, at least,
used to be) the universal (in the US) first encoding method used by
ADOLESCENTS when they are trying to a) be cool, and b) conceal the
subject of their speech from younger uninitiates.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)
UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
       decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 84 15:37:51-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: New Zelazny "Chronicles of Amber" books?

Does anyone know when Roger Zelazny is supposed to release his new
book(s) in the Amber series? I am impatiently waiting and waiting.

David C. Kovar
USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk
ARPA:   davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk@dartmouth

"The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Oct 84 05:37 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Collaborations

Let's also not forget that Jules Verne wrote a completion of Edgar
Allan Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym".

I would also suggest that people had been "completing" (e.g.) the
final fugue from Bach's "Art of Fugue" and Schubert's "Unfinished"
symphony even earlier - but that's probably a different subject.

          deryk.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 84 15:35:59-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Valentina, Soul In Sapphire

Has anyone read "Valentina, Soul in Sapphire" yet?

It looks very much like a feminized version of "The Adolescence of
P1" except that it is somewhat updated.  Even includes Usenet (WELL,
sort of).

I glanced at the first few pages in the store, and the writing looks
to be somewhat better than "P1".

Also, the hackerese is somewhat better.  The self-aware process
speaks in "ModuLisp" which (of course) reads like a lisp-modula
cross.  I don't know if there actually IS such a language.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 84 11:43:56 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: sundry things

Greetings:

Buckaroo Banzai is opening in New York and environs on Friday
October 5.

alex
<latzko@ru-blue>

The opinions expressed herein are strictly my own, and not the thought
processes of my employers

1.  Bring back barberella.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 84 11:43:56 EDT
From: Alexander B. Latzko <LATZKO@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: sundry things

Greetings:

For a Stainless Steel Rat Movie:
        Slippery Jim DiGriz : Harrison Ford
        Inkskip     : Roger Moore
        Angela              : a}early stories Sigourney Weaver
                              b}late stories  Jane Fonda @+1
        James and Bolivar   : A pair of totally unknown twins.

alex
<latzko@ru-blue>

The opinions expressed herein are strictly my own, and not the thought
processes of my employers

1.  Bring back barberella.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 84 14:19:31-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!whuxle!spuxll!abnjh!u1100a!pyuxn!pyuxww!pyuxa!
From: ajf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Yesterday, etc. (Spock's Brain)

Several people have recently mentioned something to the effect that
"why couldn't Capt. Pike's brain be put in a box like Spock's
was..."

Well... if you remember, Spock's brain was stolen for use in the
environmental control system that had been set up by a now-dead race
of super-advanced people (I believe they were called the Teachers).
It was they who had developed the technology to take a brain out of
someone's head and attach it to a computer, not the federation.  If
you remember, McCoy had to be "taught" how to put Spock's brain back
in his body, and one of his arguments for using the "teacher" device
was to gain this incredible knowledge so he could bring it back to
the federation. As it turned out, his new-found genius was only
short-term, and he just barely got Spock's brain back in place (with
a little help from Spock himself).

Thus, the reason that Pike's brain couldn't be so used was because
the technology was lost forever when McCoy forgot what the teachers
had taught him.  (I won't even start to get into the moral questions
involved.)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 84 3:32:38-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Tomorrow is Yesterday, etc.

> I thought this show was interesting in that it is one of the few
> that uses the discoveries made in previous shows.  I mean how
> about the one where Spock's brain is stolen and used as a
> environmental control computer.  In another show we see the
> previous captain of the Enterprise paralized.  His brain in
> working order, but unable to speak or move.  If the technology
> existed to interface to Spock's disembodied brain, why not the
> other man's.  I am sure all of us can think of discoveries on one
> show that could have solved the problems in the next.

If I recall properly, in the episode in which Spock's brain was
transplanted, the knowledge of how to do so, was not common
knowledge, but was available to the race of females on the planet by
use of a "teaching" helmet.  McCoy used the helmet, but began to
forget all the complex information in the middle of his operation.
I suppose they could have borrowed that knowledge for the
Federation, but no where did it state that they did.  So, my point
is that they did not have the knowledge to transplant Captain Pike's
brain.  Another thing I'm not sure of is which episode came first.
Can anyone fill us in on that.
                        Marc Lavine
uucp:   ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1984 1235-GDT
From: CCD-ARG (on Dundee Tech DEC20) <CCD-ARG@dct>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #181

Regarding the comment about technology being used in one show not
being present in another, well in "The Menagerie" in which the
previous Capt. of the Enterprise (Pike ?) is seen paralysed they
could not interface his brain as happened to Spock in "Spock's
Brain" as
a) Spock's Brain was a considerably later episode
b) Spock's was operated on by an alien race using knowledge
   considerably in advance of anything 'Bones' can do. Indeed he
   risks his life to save Spock's by connecting himself to the alien
   teaching machine which temporarily gives him the skills to
   reconnect Spock

Incidentally The Menagerie was a two part episode constructed from
the second Star Trek pilot and so was one of the first episodes made
in any case.
                                Alan Greig
                                 Comp Centre
                                  Dundee College of Technology
                                   Dundee
                                    Scotland

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #183
Date:  9 Oct 84 1335-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #183
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 84 1335-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #183
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 183

Today's Topics:

        Books - Asprin & Bradbury & Niven & K.S. Robinson &
                Saxon & V. Vinge & Wolfe & Thieve's World,
        Films - Dune (2 msgs),
        Television - Twilight zone (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 84 11:15:56 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Mythadventures Comic Book

     The comic book is being done by the Same people who brought you
ElfQuest....Wendy and Richard Pini. It is following the first book
exactly, and is drawn by Phil Foglio (who did the cover for the
latest Myth* book in trade paperback edition). I beleive it is on a
quarterly schedule, but I may be wrong. You can order it from the
publishers, and it is probably available elsewhere, but I dont know
where. I can get more information, but I cant send out to netland
personally, so this will do people little good.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 84 3:42:35-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Short Story Title Request (help!)

> The short story about the man in the cocoon is called "Chrysalis"
> By Ray Bradbury and can be found in one of "S is for Space" or "R
> is for Rocket", I don't remember which.

Well, I have "R is for Rocket", and its not in there so...

                        Marc Lavine
uucp:   ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  6 Oct 1984 10:40:14-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: THE INTEGRAL TREES

> It's a bizarre, beautiful concept that was utterly wasted on the
> total banality of the story, which was a travelog with some
> shootemup here and there to keep things interesting.  This could
> have been another Ringworld, but I suspect NIven wasn't quite sure
> what to do with his creation once he had worked out all the math.
>
> --Jeff Duntemann   duntemann.wbst@xerox

That's funny, I was rather disappointed with RINGWORLD because I
thought *it* was nothing more than a "travelog with some shootemup
here and there to keep things interesting".

I muchly preferred RINGWORLD ENGINEERS, because it used the
Ringworld as a setting for a real story.

And I'm a hardcore Niven fan.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Oct 84 04:15:29 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: A review of ICEHENGE by Kim Stanley Robinson

ICEHENGE.  Kim Stanley Robinson.  Ace, c1984.

Non-spoiler review:     A very good book.  Sensitive hard SF.

Micro-spoiler review:

A very different book from Robinson's previous novel, THE WILD
SHORE, but just as well written.  Robinson shows a lot of attention
to detail in both characters and setting, evoking a clear vision of
life on Mars and around the outer planets over the next seven
centuries.  The title refers to a curious structure of 66 blocks of
ice in a circular array that has been found at the north pole of
Pluto.  Who built it?  It's not an easy question, and you will be
left guessing right up to the last couple pages.  This is fine hard
SF from a writer who brings more to the genre than most other
writers.

Mini-spoiler review:

ICEHENGE reminds me strongly of Gregory Benford's work.  Robinson
has a thoroughly worked out picture of human history through at
least the 2600's, covering the political consequences of planetary
colonization and the social consequences of 600-year lifespans; the
latter are particularly interesting given the hypothesis that memory
diminishes over time, so that people can only maintain a clear image
of their last hundred years or so and sometimes need to resort to
detective work to discover what they did when they were 'young'.
Technology is altering the faces of the other planets in the solar
system, and Robinson brings us along on a hike across a partially
terraformed Mars.  (One of Robinson's characters works for the Titan
Weather Company.)  Political unrest on Mars leads to revolt, which
is handled (alas) much more realistically than in THE MOON IS A
HARSH MISTRESS.  This detail lends a wonderful feel to the book
which is missing from the sort of space western which is all too
prone to turn up when you look for hard SF.

The book is divided into three sections; each section is narrated by
a character whose motives are called into question by the narrators
of other sections, so that you are forced to judge for yourself whom
to believe.  The first section is told by Emma Weil, a life
scientist who finds herself shanghaied by members of the Mars
Starship Association during the confusion of the Martian Civil War.
The second story is told by Hjalmar Nederland, a 300-year-old
archaeologist who is desperately trying to prove that the official
version of the war is not the right one.  (Although Nederland lived
during the war, it happened so long ago that his memory of it has
evaporated...)  The third story is told by Edmond Doya, the
great-grandson of Nederland, who believes that Nederland and Weil
were wrong and that someone behind the scenes has been manipulating
events.  His paranoia runs deep -- but perhaps not deep enough.
Surrounding these three very different personalities is the
enigmatic circle of Icehenge, whose mystery gradually secretes
itself into the structure of their lives, leading to a grand
obsession that can only be satisfied by the discovery of the
builders.

Very nicely done and well recommended.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 1984 1435 PDT
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Pig Latin in P1

   Pig Latin was a very common coding algorithm in my grade school
days.  One takes the first consonant of each word, suffix it with
"ay" and suffix the result at the end of the word.  There was no
reference to it in the P1 book.  Robert Heinlein uses/refers to it
in a couple of his books.

   But since we are on the subject of explanations, has anyone read
"The Hieros Gamos of Sam and Ann Smith" by Josephine Saxon (I
think).  It was published a while back (15+ years) and there has
been no new printings.  The book had received quite good reviews.  I
would appreciate any comments or even a logical explanation of the
storyline jump.  To refresh the memories of those of you that have
read it :

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

   The story opens with Sam, a young boy, being the only human on
earth.  During the course of the story, he finds a woman giving
birth to a baby girl.  The woman dies shortly after childbirth and
Sam is left to take care of the girl (Ann).  After Ann matures, she
becomes Sam's wife.  Up to now, Sam and Ann are the only humans on
earth.  Then the story takes a drastic jump and we find Sam and Ann
are middle class people with a house in the suburbs and Sam with a
9-5 job.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Oct 84 22:03:29-EDT
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: TRUE NAMES returns

According to a Bluejay employee, Bluejay is reprinting Vernor
Vinge's 1981 novella TRUE NAMES; scheduled release in December, b&w
illustrated (I didn't recognize the artist's name).  I'm unsure
whether it's hardcover or trade paperback.  Erythrina lives!!!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Oct 84 04:47:39 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Gene Wolfe's new novel FREE LIVE FREE

Gene Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE is going to be published by Mark
Ziesing's specialty press sometime in the next few weeks.  FREE LIVE
FREE lived free of a contract for a while because Timescape Books
went down the tubes, but in a deal with Ziesing, who also published
Wolfe's book about THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN named THE CASTLE OF THE
OTTER, a special limited edition will come out this month.
According to LOCUS #285, the edition will be illustrated, signed,
and limited to 750 copies.  According to Mark Ziesing when I spoke
to him on the phone, the book will be a high quality printing, 500
pages with a fancy dustjacket, and will cost $45.  I shelled out for
one, and if you think $45 is a bit steep then you can find out later
whether it's worth it when I review it.  If you're interested in a
copy yourself, here are Mark's parameters:

        Mark Ziesing
        PO Box 806 (for orders) or
        762 Main St. (where the shop is)
        Willimantic CT 06226
        (203) 423-5836 until 7 PM, Tuesday through Saturday
        'Orders over $25 are sent post free' except $2.50 overseas

Mark has also published Phil Dick's early novel THE MAN WHOSE TEETH
WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE, one of the missing books from Dick's pre-SF
period.  When Dick re-read his old unpublished novels soon before he
died, he picked TEETH as his favorite.  Mark will part with a copy
of TEETH for $19.50, plus $1.50 postage and handling if it's not
part of another order.

I have no connection with Mark Ziesing and have never even been to
Connecticut,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Sun 7 Oct 84 21:26:14-PDT
From: Bob Larson <Blarson@Usc-Ecl>
Subject: Thieves World #6: Wings of Omen

There is a new volume in the thieves world series.  If you liked the
previous ones, you'll probably like this one.  Due to numerous vague
references to things that are explained or happened in previous
volumes, I would not recommend starting the series with this volume.
There are two new (to the series) authors: Diane Duane and Robin
Bailey, and Janet Morris has Chris as a co-author (Husband?).  Lynn
Abbey is co-editor again.  Did anyone else notice the high
proportion of female authors in this series?  (Not a complaint, just
an observation)

A note in the front of the book mentions "various short stories and
one novel published involving a Thieves World(TM) character" and
notes that events in unauthorized stories will not effect sanctuary.
The novel is Jamie the Red by Gordon Dickson and Roland Green, what
are the short stories?  Listed as authorized tie-in works are three
novels by Janet Morris, one to be published next May, and the others
do not have a publisher mentioned so probably haven't been
published.

Thieves World #6: Wings of Omen Edited by Robert Asprin and Lynn
Abbey Ace Fantasy November 1984 Isbn: 0-441-80593-0 $2.95

Bob Larson <BLarson@Usc-Ecl>

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 84 15:37:51-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Comment on Dune movie

I saw the 1985 Dune calendar. It had stills from the movie.
ARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGG. Paul is waiting on the sand just before riding
his first Maker and is wearing *nothing* above the shoulders. No
cape, no stillsuit, no nothing. Now I realize that you can't pay an
actor so much $$$ and cover his face, but lets be reasonable. Also,
the previews I saw in the theatre had the Baron flying around on his
suspensors.  Last I checked, they only supported his weight, they
could not lift nor guide him. ARRRRRRRRGGRGRGRGGRGGG.

David C. Kovar
USNET:  {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk
ARPA:   davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk@dartmouth

"The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now."

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 84 6:33:57-PDT (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Comment on Dune movie

        While we may not agree with the way Dune is presented in the
movies, one thing to remember is that Herbert was deeply involved
with the project, and is very happy with the result.

                                eric
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 84 20:23:29-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Twilight Zone

Of course, "Incident at Owl Creek Bridge" was, properly speaking,
not really a TZ episode at all.  The show consists of Serling
appearing at the beginning admitting that they didn't make this
film, and that they were running it due to its high quality and
award winning status.  It is the same short subject that has made
the rounds through various outlets over the years, only with the
short intro by Serling prepended in this case.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1984  01:31 MDT (Sat)
From: Ron Fowler <RFOWLER@SIMTEL20>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #181

On Friday, October 12, WGN will present its "Twilight Zone Silver
Anniversary" at 11:45 PM Central, 12:45 Easter time.  Here's the
synopsis from my TV Guide:

"This salute to the series features three seldom-seen episodes with
some familiar start -- and with some segments reprocessed in color.
1. 'Miniature,' with Robert Duvall.  2. 'A Short Drink from a
Certain Fountain,' with Patrick O'Neal.  3.  'Sounds and Silences,'
with John McGiver.  (2hrs.)"

Alas, no mention of "An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge".

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 84 22:38:26-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!harvard!godot!mit-eddie!barmar @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Twilight Zone

ables@ut-ngp.UUCP (King Ables) writes:
>I have also heard from a friend that WGN (Chicago) is going to pull
>out those un-syndicated shows and show them.

The way I have heard it (from at least two sources), about four
episodes are being added to the set that are in syndication, and
they will be shown all around the country starting this month.  This
set includes the doll house episode which stars a very young Robert
Duvall.

    Barry Margolin
    ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics
    UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 84 10:38:04-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxo!engels @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Twilight Zone

4 episodes of Twilight Zone were aired last night on WGN.  The doll
house episode with Robert Duvall was amoung them.

        Sue Engels
        ihnp4!ihuxo!engels

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 84 3:53:41-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Twilight Zone

> The way I have heard it (from at least two sources), about four
> episodes are being added to the set that are in syndication, and
> they will be shown all around the country starting this month.
> This set includes the doll house episode which stars a very young
> Robert Duvall.

On the EMMY awards show, they showed a scene from that episode, and
said it hadn't been seen on television in 20 years.  That seemed a
little strange to me, since I really thought I'd seen that one a few
years ago.
                        Marc Lavine
uucp:   ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #184
Date: 10 Oct 84 1148-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #184
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Oct 84 1148-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #184
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Oct 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 184

Today's Topics:

            Books - McCaffrey & Saxon & Collaborations &
                    Libraries & Thieve's World,
            Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Dune & Metropolis,
            Television - Star Trek & Dr. Who,
            Miscellaneous - Con in Belleville, NJ

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 12:07:49-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ihu1j!gek @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Review of MORETA

I finally broke down and bought Moreta, by Anne McCaffrey (at least,
I can say with some pride, I waited for paperback!). Ycch; I
finished it but it went straight into my "resell" pile. I don't want
to make this a spoiler, but it is safe to say that AM never made it
clear who the hero(ine) is. Is it the Masterhealer? The Lord of
Rautha? The aging queen rider? Surely not Moreta, we never even got
to see her song (not even a single line!). Everybody gets equal
time, and nobody gets enough time.

Well, that's my opinion in 8 lines. I bought Buckaroo Banzai at the
same time because of all the noise on the net about the movie, and
I'm thoroughly enjoying it (by way of comparison)!

glenn kapetansky

           "The time has come", the Walrus said,
           "To talk of many things..."

...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek

------------------------------

From: DALTON FHL (on ERCC DEC-10) <J.Dalton%edxa@ucl-cs.arpa>
Date: Wednesday, 10-Oct-84 10:48:18-BST
Subject: The Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith

     A few years ago, I read a something by Josephine Saxon and,
wanting more, obtained "The Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith"
through interlibrary loan from my local library (this was in the
US), an excellent method for finding even books as obscure as this
one.

     It's not for everyone, but I was very impressed.

     I too was puzzled by the ending.  It would help, or at least I
hope it would, to know what "hieros gamos" means, or even to find
some reason for the name "An" instead of "Ann", but I'm not sure a
logical explanation of the storyline jump is possible.  Still, if we
all throw in a few bits, perhaps something will emerge.

 >>> If you have not read the book, you may want to stop here. <<<

     First, it's not quite true that Sam is the only human on earth.
Apart from the woman who dies, I think I recall (this means I'm not
sure I trust the memory) that the boy had met some other people and
was reluctant to meet more.  This is why he didn't like to loop back
to anywhere he'd already been -- he might meet someone who was
following.  Then there was the old woman (I'm more sure of this) in
the Department store who selected a pile of books for him to read.
(If I'm correct here, does anyone remember which books?)  Still, Sam
and An never actually meet anyone else, so for most of the story
they are effectively the only ones.

     I also recall that a lot of things-in-need-of-explanation
happen on the way to the story discontinuity.  I believe that for
most of the book, the boy and girl have no names, or at least that
something involving names happens near the end.  I wish I could
remember how old they were and what they did just before the
discontinuity as well.  Their life changes considerably once they
reach the sea (at the amusement park): she becomes his wife, but
other things happen as well, and the girl is the leader in at least
some of this.  (I seem to recall her suggesting that it was "time".)

     Well, you can see that my memory is hazy (at best) on all
points, but if I had to make a guess at what it was all about, I'd
say that it involved the transformation of children into adults (the
transformation in general -- because otherwise I wouldn't be saying
much, but also because Sam and An are sort of generic names).  I
would look for metaphors and associations rather than something
like: someone tried an experiment along the lines of Wigner's Friend
and this is what happened before someone looked in to make the
quantum choice determinate, or: disease (war?) killed most people on
earth, but actually the world split at that point and somehow the
boy and girl were able to reunite the alternates.

     Actually, I'm more inclined not to interpret it at all and just
see what else, if anything, connects.

Jeff Dalton, University of Edinburgh
J.Dalton%edxa@ucl-cs

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 84 10:22:58 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Verne and Poe

In V9 #182, Deryk Barker says,

   Let's also not forget that Jules Verne wrote a completion of
   Edgar Allan Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym".

Let's do forget that Verne wrote a completion and instead remember
that he wrote a SEQUEL to Poe's "Pym" (called, I believe, AN
ANTARCTIC ADVENTURE) (and a pretty poor sequel it was, too).

Poe completed "Pym" all by himself.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 84 10:24:13 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Recreational reading from libraries

In V9 #182, David Dyer-Bennet says,

   I haven't yet seen the query about these stories, but I've seen a
   response summarizing many of them; it brings back memories.  I
   really liked them also.  I think I read them in two hardcover
   volumes from the public library; I've never owned them.  I don't
   suppose there's ever been a paperback edition?  (Incidentally,
   this is one reason I view getting recreational reading from
   libraries with suspicion; that library is now 1500 miles away,
   and the local one doesn't have Bullard.)

May I submit that David has missed the point regarding recreational
reading from libraries?  Since he never owned a copy of Bullard of
the Space Patrol, how could he have had these pleasant memories if
not for the library?  Correspondingly, how many times has he (or
anyone) bought and read a book, only to say, "Well, that was a waste
of good money."?

Personal libraries are well and good (he says, having quite a large
one himself), but they're always limited by one's (past and current)
tastes.  Public libraries are *designed* for recreational reading.

Sheesh!

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1984  22:48 EDT (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Thieves World #6: Wings of Omen

        There was a short story about Lythande in a recent issue of
Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, I believe.  I can get the
title if anyone is interested.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 84 11:10:25 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai....SPOILER!!!!!

     If you like bizarre movies, if absurd things casually thrown
together make you giggle incessantly, if you **LOVE** comic books
and wish they were on the big screen, GO SEE THIS MOVIE!!!!!

                   *****SPOILER STARTS HERE*****

     Buckaroo Banzai seems to me like a true comic book in the 50's
tradition filmed exactly as written. Buckaroo Banzai is a brain
surgeon. However, he got bored, and decided to pursue particle
physics and rock music. He travels with "those hard-rocking
scientists, the Hong Kong Cavaliers". He is the son of a Japanese
father and an American mother, and so started life as he was
destined to live it...going in many directions at once. He is
fighting evil aliens from Planet Ten at the command of Good Aliens
from Planet Ten (if he doesn't catch the bad guy, they are going to
bomb Russia and make it look like we did it). There is the
obligatory Scientist Friend of His Deceased Parents, the Smart
Blonde Who Acts Dumb, the New Member of The Group, and other
marvelous types. The Evil Ring leader talks with an accent that is
apparently deliberately a cross between Italian and Jamaican. The
Good Aliens look like Rastafarians to almost everyone. The space
ships look like sea shells. There is a watermelon in a hydraulic
press. There is one Evil Alien who sucks on a 6volt battery like a
soda. The War of the Worlds radio hoax was no hoax: Hundreds of
people from Grovers Mill applied for Social Security on November 1,
1938 for a company called Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems.....the hotbed
of the Evil Aliens and the current contractor for America's new
bomber. There is so much and so little going on at once that after 2
showings I am still confused, and still giggling. This movie has no
reason for existence. But then, neither does Rocky Horror. It is
fun. I want the sound track.

"What is that watermelon doing there?"
"I'll tell you later."

Insanity Reigns,
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 84 12:54:56 EDT
From: Brian Charles Sudis <bsudis@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai!

        Having just seen this movie this weekend in the D.C. area, I
have to say it is far from the best movie I have ever seen, but it
sure is one of the most FUN movies I have had a chance to see in a
long time!

        Read the book too! (Before or after, cause it's fun too!)

                                        Brian.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 1984  22:38 EDT
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Herbert's involvement with Dune

Herbert did a pretty good job of trashing Dune when he wrote God
Emperor etc.  Why should we expect him to do any better on the
screen?

--Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 84 10:51 EST
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Metropolis

For a MACPerson, who gets a major high out of visuals (work
stations, etc.)  Fritz Lang is a real treat. This film makes
excellent use of the visual media that Film in truth is. One recent
NYT magazine reviewer complained that he film he was watching on an
airline (without sound) was incredibly boring, that modern directors
have forgotten how to film without sound.  Not so with Fritz Lang or
the MTV people.

As for the much criticized musical sound track that has been added
to this film - I liked it. A purist will only be satisfied with
orthodox purity, but I felt the sound-track added a bit of humorous
running commentary on a film whose plot is a bit stale after 58
years. It's sort of like the vaudeville act where the person doing
the skit on stage is parodied by a person in the wings.

                                                - Steven Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 1984 10:11-PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #182
From: Craig E. Ward <WARD@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

    Incidentally The Menagerie was a two part episode constructed
    from the second Star Trek pilot and so was one of the first
    episodes made in any case.

The Menagerie was the first pilot.  It did not have as much
"adventure" as the TV executives wanted so Where No Man Has Gone
Before was made at a later date.  Not all of the actors from the
first pilot were available so Roddenberry had to get new people for
such roles as Captain Kirk.

Incidentally, according to Roddenberry, the original color print for
The Menagerie has been lost.  Only the parts used in the later
two-part show exist in color.  (I've seen it in B&W and it is as
good as any other episode).

So it goes.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Oct 84 12:53:43-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who Convention with Matthew Waterhouse (Adric)

We had a Who/Trek/Comics convention in Boston last weekend, and I
got to hear Matthew Waterhouse talk about his experiences as Adric.
Here are some of the questions and paraphrased answers [with my
comments in brackets].

*** If you haven't seen the Adric episodes yet, this is a minor
spoiler ***

Q: Are you a fan of Doctor Who?
A: Every Briton of my age grew up watching Doctor Who, and had toy
   Daleks (I had six).  [In other words, not any more - it's just a
   kid show, right?]

Q: How did you feel about getting the part?
A: I ran right home and signed the contract before they could change
   their minds.  I was very happy with the money I was going to
   make.
Q: Did you leave the series by choice?

A: Yes - I had been on for two years and was ready for other things
   (currently I am working in the theater).  There's not a lot for a
   sidekick to do.  I spent most of my time saying "I don't
   understand, Doctor", and "please explain, Doctor", and "Why?!?".
Q: How did you feel when Adric was killed off?

A: Relieved.  The way Adric was defined, it was unlikely that he
   would ever want to stay behind on a planet, and he was too young
   to fall in love.  Killing him was the only way for him to leave
   that was consistent with his character.  The writer [I forget his
   name] who has done some of the best Dr. Who scripts said that he
   would have killed off Leela too, instead of the silly thing they
   did.
Q: Were you happy with the way Adric developed as compared to the
   concept?
A: The problem was that most of the production crew are bachelors,
   and the rest only have small children.  So even though Adric was
   supposed to be 15 (I was 17 when I left the show), he was written
   much younger (the director kept telling me to "be more
   innocent").
Q: When you walk into the Tardis, is it really as small as it looks?
A: BBC hasn't got the technology to make it bigger on the inside
   than on the outside.  One time, Adric was marched into the Tardis
   by six guards with big guns, and we really were crowded into a
   box the size of a phone booth.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 84 19:10:06-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!mhuxj!mhuxm!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Mini-con in Belleville, NJ, 10/20

    .
 \  .  /
  \ * /
   \*/
..**O  THE NEW JERSEY SCIENCE FICTION SOCIETY PROUDLY PRESENTS
   /*\
  / * \
    .

 ***   *    *   *    ***    *     ***   *    ***  *****  ***  *    *
*     * *   **  *   *      * *   *     * *  *       *     *   **   *
*     * *   * * *   *      * *   *     * *  *       *     *   * *  *
*     * *   *  **   *      * *   *     * *  *       *     *   *  * *
 ***   *    *   *    ***    *     ***   *    ***    *    ***  *   **


                     ------             |
                    /      \      |     |
                   /        \     |     |
                   |        |     |     |
                    \      /      |     |
                     >----<       \     |
                    /      \       -----+
                   |        |           |
                    \       /           |
                     \_____/            ^


************** A One-Day Mini-Con ****************

GOH:    L. Sprague De Camp
        Lin Carter

Also:   Films           Video           Art             Dealers
                Discussions                 FUN

When:   Saturday,  October 20, Noon --->  Midnight
The Bad News:   $4.00 Admission
Where:  Belleville Masonic Temple
        126 Joralemon Street
        Belleville, NJ

How to Get There:

Temple is at 126 Joralemon St., near Washington Ave, in Belleville.
From NY, take De Camp #44 bus (sorry, I'm just relaying these
                                directions!)
From NJ, take TNJ #13 bus (      "     )
Driving, take Rt. 3 to Rt. 21S, get off 21 at Main St. exit.
        Turn left, drive to Joralemon (crossing railroad tracks, then
        main drag on hill), turn right.  Temple on right, big concrete
        pillars, can't be mistaken for anything but what it is.

For Information:

        Randolph Fritz (201) 641-2170 (phone)

        New Jersey SF Society
                PO Box 65
                Paramus NJ 07653

********* DEALER SPACE FREE IF WE HAVE ANY LEFT ********

Art Show Info:

        Robert Hepperle (201) 434-8857

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #185
Date: 11 Oct 84 1149-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #185
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 84 1149-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #185
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Oct 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 185


Today's Topics:

           Books - Zelazney & Valentina (2 msgs) & Poe &
                   Defending the Literary Fort,
           Films - Stainless Steel Rat & Buckaroo Banzai (3 msgs) &
                   Conan & Dune (2 msgs),
           Television - Tales From the Darkside & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 14:07:24-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Amber

        What's this about more Amber books?  I thought Courts of Chaos
pretty much tied that off.  There's more coming?  Please tell.

                                        -- Rob <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 12:57:28-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: valentina

This is the first novel I've read which was based on computers, was
written by someone who knew something about computers, and actually
uses computer jargon with relative accuracy.

Unfortunately, a lot of stuff in the book is just plain WRONG! I
won't go into it, or the discussion will be worse than that on "V"
which dragged on interminably without any interest-value at all.

What I will criticize is a) the statement that all hackers are
criminals who enjoy breaking other people's programs, and b) the
portrayal of all hackers in the novel (there are at least 6), as
being totally weird and divorced from normal society. The two main
characters are stereotyped freaks; the heroine is a shy overweight
games-player who knows more than four times as many computer
languages fluently than she does human languages, of which she knows
seven. The other main character is a slob with an addiction to
french-fries and might be portrayed by, say, Walter Matthau severely
hung-over on a bad day.

Now, I don't claim that all or even most hackers come anywhere near
any kind of societal norm, but most of them you could pass in the
street without crossing to the other side, which is more than I can
say for most of the people in Valentina (who is, by the way, totally
impossible as far as the technology rendered in the book, but that's
besides the point).

In other words, too bad guys (I forget who the co-authors are), but
the book just doesn't succeed. It would have done well if either the
writing and plot had been good (it is almost puerile in its
reasoning), or the characters and technology had been reasonable,
but the book fails in almost all respects.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 12:55:29-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: _Valentina-Soul in Sapphire_

_Valentina-Soul in Sapphire_; Joseph H. Delany and Mark Siegler

_Valentina_ is three shorter works cobbled together.  Two appeared
in Analog this year (May(?) and September).  The book is fun, I
think.  However, The first appearance of Valentina in Analog caused
a bit of an uproar here on the net over the characterization of the
two hacker protagonists.  The idea of the computer program who wakes
up is intriguing.  The author's characterization of the title
character is good.  Some of the other characters are a bit
cardboard.  The last section is a bit hokey but overall the stories
are a good read.

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Oct 84 10:01:06-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Arthur Gordon Pym

The full title of Poe's only novel is

        The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket

and I will say nothing that might spoil this story for anyone who
hasn't read it.

Jules Verne's sequel is

        The Sphynx of the Ice-Fields

In addition, there are allusions or reflections of Poe's book in
some other fantastic novels, such as

        The Greatest Adventure  -  John Taine
        At the Mountains of Madness  -  H P Lovecraft

But Poe's work itself in some respects strangely resembles another,
greater book - Moby Dick

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 84 21:32:44 PDT (Wed)
Subject: Defending the literary fort...
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-icsc>

        (I hope that these kind of flames are not getting tedious,
but here goes...)

        After reading various negative comments about some of the
authors (Herbert, Anthony, Niven) and their works (Dune, Adept
series, Ringworld,etc.)  that I have enjoyed greatly, I felt I
should argue in favor of the aforementioned. But I didn't feel that
I should answer in rebuttal to each argument posted, until I was
inspired by a foreword by Isaac Asimov that appeared in an old
anthology. This should sum up why I feel some opinions of these
books is unfair (everyone is entitled to their own opinion - even if
they are wrong...).

        Science fiction (this include fantasy in my mind) is the
only printed arena where authors can get away with such far (and not
so far) reaching ideas as they do (unless you want to count some of
the off the wall works of Gore Vidal -- Duluth, and such). Since the
author is not usually dealing with such well known facts that
objects fall when you drop them, dogs bark, and fire trucks are red
(in my town), he must spend much of his time describing the
background - social, political, biological, etc. aspects. This
leaves very little room to expand upon characterization and minute
plot details that writers of 'normal' fiction delve into. Sure the
characters in Dune are shallow and sometimes boring, but the
political web that is woven by Herbert is immense. And sure, Niven's
Integral Trees is just a shoot-em-up travelogue, but he gave us a
novel (no pun...) setting that is unparalleled in any of the reading
I have done lately (read LATELY! - and I will accept suggestions).

        This may sound rude, but if you want thoughtful
characterizations and intricate plots all of the time - read a few
of the classics recommended by the national library association. I
admit that there are sf novels out there that meet these
requirements, but that doesn't mean that the others can't be enjoyed
for what they are.
                   -- Greg
                   finnegan@uci-icsc

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 14:07:24-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Stainless Steel Rat

        JANE FONDA and ROGER MOORE as Inskipp and Angelina?!!!?  Gag!!
(The others are ok.)  How about Sean Connery as Inskipp?  He looks the
part and is a *much* better actor than Moore ever was or will be.
                                -- Rob <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 7:32:55-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: BUCKEROO BANZAI

The problem with a movie where anything can happen is that
*anything* can happen.
                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 7:32:46-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: BUCKEROO BANZAI

                          BUCKEROO BANZAI
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     The phenomenon of the midnight audience cult classic has given
rise to a number of films trying to outdo each other for weirdness.
It seems that to capture this highly profitable audience the
filmmaker has to create a film unlike the kind of fare that one
usually sees when common work-a-day people can get to a theater.  In
nature the majority of mutations are non-viable, and the same
principle applies to films that try to be different to catch the
after-midnight crowd.  Most are films everyone should see at most
once.  And that isn't the idea at all.  Rare is the person who sits
through ERASERHEAD repeatedly.  In any town big enough to make
showing midnight films profitable, people who would see ERASERHEAD
more than once will find other establishments to cater to their
masochistic tendencies.

     More light-hearted than most attempted classics is BUCKEROO
BANZAI: ACROSS THE 8TH DIMENSION.  This film bears roughly the same
relationship to comic books that head cheese bears to meat.  It is a
very strange dicing and throwing together of many very odd ideas.
It is sort of DOC SAVAGE crossed with THE MONITORS done in the style
of THE LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH.  It seems that we really were
invaded the night of the famous Orson Welles broadcast of THE WAR OF
THE WORLDS on October 30, 1938.  (The scriptwriter and most of the
rest of the world think the date was the 31st, but the correct date
was really Sunday the 30th.)  There are two groups of battling
aliens, the red Lectroids and the black Lectroids, with Earth caught
in the middle.  The only person who can save us is
super-scientist/rock- singer/neurosurgeon Buckeroo Banzai.  This
over-achiever leads a band of loyal compatriots and an army of child
confederates.  On the side of evil is B.B.'s arch-enemy Emilio
Lizardo (John Lithgow) and the nasty red Lectroids.  Allied with
Buckeroo for good are the black Lectroids.  The aliens are all
around but without special glasses, the red Lectroids look like AT&T
executives and the blacks look like Rastafarians.  Does that sound
odd?  There is more to come.  B.B. has a new device that lets him
move through solid matter by projecting him into the eighth
dimension which turns out to be the subway tunnel the Lectroids use
to get here from Planet Ten (of course!).  If that sounds confusing,
don't worry.  You now have a concrete advantage over the rest of the
audience toward understanding this film.  It may even give you a
fighting chance to assimilate what is going on.  Maybe.

     Confusion, camp, bad acting, strange action, rock music, and
homilies like, "No matter where you go, there you are" combine to
make this film,...well...odd.  Not too bad, but a long way from
perfect.  Rate it +1 (on a -4 to +4 scale).

                                (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                Mark R. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1984 04:24:17-EDT (Thursday)
From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMV%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai

I really liked the movie, but let me emphasize that it is really
helpful to read the novelization before going.  Whereas most movies
don't do justice to their books, novelizations, frequently having
nothing to do but paraphrase a script and paint pictures, don't have
as much of a quality gap.  I was the only one of my friends who
liked Star Trek, the first of many, because I knew what was going
on.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Oct 84 00:25:56 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: The next Conan movie

According to a recent announcement in the LA Times, the next Conan
movie has already started shooting.  The working title is "Red
Sonja".  (I thought Milius had already stolen most of the
interesting stuff from Howard's Red Sonja, but...)  Arnold is
playing Conan, as before.  Sandahl Bergman is playing a villainess;
it will be interesting to see how they slip that one by.  An unknown
is playing Red Sonja, out for revenge against the nasty lady who
croaked her family (Bergman's guilty, of course), and informed by a
vision not to fool around with any man unless he can beat her in
combat.  Guess who that'll be?  The reported budget is $35 million,
which is about twice the budget of "Conan the Destroyer", and should
buy lots of special effects, especially if they film it in Mexico,
like the last one.  I've lost the announcement, but I believe that
Richard Fleischer is directing, again.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 84 09:30:21 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Comment on Dune movie

Re: eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric

>        While we may not agree with the way Dune is presented in
>the movies, one thing to remember is that Herbert was deeply
>involved with the project, and is very happy with the result.

This is not the first time I've heard this argument in defense of
the movie's desecration of The Book, but if you think about it, you
see that this is a weak defense indeed.  Consider: Herbert has not
written a good book since Dune (nor, in my opinion, has he EVER
written a good book, with the exception of Dune.)  "Heretics of
Dune"?  "The White Plague"?  It is to laugh!  Herbert is perhaps the
LEAST qualified person to oversee the integrity of the movie
translation.

Now, if the movie had been made right after Herbert had finished the
book oh-so-many years ago, then maybe ... but now, no way.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 17:40:45-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @
From: Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Upcoming Dune movie, Herbert's involvement

Yes, Frank Herbert is involved in the Dune movie, and yes, he is
happy about it.  But I'm not happy about the other Dune books he's
done (say, the last three), and I'm not particularly happy about
many of the other books he's done, so I don't find his happiness to
be that comforting.
                        -- David Dyer-Bennet
                        -- ...!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 7:33:31-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE

                          TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE
                      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE is an anthology series produced by
George Romero (of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD fame).  It is syndicated
to any local station who wants to fill a half hour here and there.
It had a shaky but interesting pilot about a year ago, with an
episode entitled "Trick or Treat." This time around the series
opener is called "I'll Give a Million."  I expected it to leave me
yearning for the old TWILIGHT ZONEs I grew up with.  Well, the story
might have been better compared to Alfred Hitchcock's old half-hour
show--it's more his style--but I'll give "I'll Give a Million" is a
better story than most of Rod Serling's fare.  It concerns two
wealthy, ruthless old codgers--a la TRADING PLACES--who have been
pulling shady deals for a long time.  Unexpectedly, one offers the
other one million dollars for his soul.  Since neither is
particularly religious, it sounds like a good deal.  Or is it?
     Well, what can I tell you?  I used to call TALES OF THE
UNEXPECTED "Tales of the Totally Predictable" but this story did
keep me guessing what was going on.  There is something I like a lot
about the last five minutes or so, but to say anything about it
would rule out one or more of about five or six possible courses for
the plot.  I don't want to do that so somebody (please!) who has
seen it, talk (write) to me about it so I can tell you what I liked.
Nice going, Mr. Romero.  Nice touch at the end.  It shows you are
more than just a horror story fan.

                                (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                Mark R. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 14:07:24-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek

        Re: "The Menagerie" (Star Trek): it was the first pilot, not 
the second.  James R. Kirk was Captain in the second pilot, which was
indeed "Where No Man Has Gone Before".  Spock was the only character
in both pilots, and in "Menagerie" (originally called "The Cage") he
was highly emotional and had RED skin (I don't remember if he was
called a Vulcan, a Martian, or unspecified pointy-eared token alien).
                                        -- Rob <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #186
Date: 15 Oct 84 1150-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #186
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Oct 84 1150-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #186
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 186

Today's Topics:

       Books - Brunner & Delany & Herbert & Saxon (3 msgs) &
               Zelazney,
       Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still & Red Sonja &
               Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs),
       Television - The Twilight Zone & V & Star Trek (5 msgs),
       Video - Barbarella

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 84 06:39:05 PDT (Friday)
Subject: SF story concerning computers
To: <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
From: Jeff Hodges <Hodges.pa@XEROX.ARPA>

Laurence -

A SF book concerning computers you may enjoy is John Brunner's
"Shockwave Rider".  It is set in the USA in the near future.  The
nation is wired together by a huge, pervasive computer network.
Everyone has access to the net, and everyone's life is highly
affected by the information maintained about them by the 'net' (the
existence of monstrous databases and machines is hinted about, but
never really explained).  Brunner's understanding of computers and
networks is pretty accurate.  He introduces the idea of 'worm'
programs.  A worm is a distributed program that propogates itself
across the network, while accomplishing whatever job it was designed
to do.  A paper I read (in ACM or IEEE journal) a few years ago,
authored at PARC and concerning experimentation with 'worms', was
the impetus to read "Shockwave Rider".  The authors of the paper
indicate (in the paper) Brunner's book was where they got their
ideas.  They did succeed in writing a 'worm', as I recall.

You may enjoy this book more than 'Valentina' (no promises).

<Subject Change>

Anyone know when 'Zardoz' will be comming back to the BayArea?

        -Jeff-

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 84 09:15:40 PDT (Friday)
From: Hoffman.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: STARBOARD WINE by Delany

I'm trying to find 'Starboard Wine' by Samuel R. Delany.  I have
seen a couple of written mentions of it, but I can find out no more.
I'm not even sure whether it is fiction or non-fiction.

Two knowledgeable bookstores find no help in 'Starmont: Delany', 'SF
Writers', '20th Century SF Writers', 'Encyclopedia of SF', 'Welles
Index', or 'The Delany Intersection'.

Any leads are greatly appreciated.

--Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Oct 84 22:46:28 PDT
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Herbert, and his other good book

> Consider: Herbert has not written a good book since Dune (nor, in
> my opinion, has he EVER written a good book, with the exception of
> Dune.)

         Then you must never have read "Under Pressure" (also known
as "21st Century Sub", and "Dragon in the Sea"). While I agree that
most of Herbert's writting can be ignored, he DOES have two first
rate books.
                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1984 1123 PDT
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith

   "Hieros gamos" is greek meaning marriage.  I read the book long
ago so my memory is hazy too.  I was holding back a few of my
"clues" to see if anyone else had interpreted them differently.  I
seem to remember a parrot in one part of the story saying "Time is
the prime subjective" or something to that effect.  I believe Sam
was a 11-15 when he first saw An.  An was around that age when she
became his wife.  This is one book that remains a mystery to me.
The reviews for it were good but they all side stepped the issue of
explaining the book.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Oct 84 16:01:56 EDT
From: Stephen Miklos <Miklos@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: [csi!miklos: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #184]

    From: DALTON FHL (on ERCC DEC-10) <J.Dalton%edxa@ucl-cs.arpa>
    Date: Wednesday, 10-Oct-84 10:48:18-BST
    Subject: The Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith

    ...It would help, or at least I hope it would, to know what
    "hieros gamos" means...

Sacred marriage (Holy Matrimony, batman!!)

  From the trusty Greek Dictionary of Stephen J. Miklos

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Oct 84 02:49:15-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: "Hieros Gamos"

Check with someone who really knows Greek for a better translation,
but from etymologically related words in English (hieroglyphic,
hierarchy, hierophont; monogamy, polygamy) I'd guess <Hieros Gamos>
might mean "priestly [holy? sacred?] marriage".

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1984  13:15 EDT (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Amber

Supposedly, Zelazny has signed to write 3 more Amber stories.  He
was quoted as saying that, "the stories will not continue from where
Courts of Chaos left off.  They will occur later in time, and will
not necessarily involve the same characters, although characters
from the first series will appear from time to time."

I don't think I've remembered that quote 100% accurately, but that's
the gist of it anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 11 Oct 1984 09:55-EDT
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: movie remakes

        I can't believe that they are planning a remake of "The Day
the Earth Stood Still". I can't imagine what they will do to it.
They made a remake of "The Thing", which did try to follow the short
story by John W. Campbell, Jr.  as far as the plot was concerned
(even if they did go overboard with the horror crap!). The original
story that TDTEST was based on was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry
Bates, which, though interesting, had nothing to do with the movie
version, except for Klaatu and Gort (who was Gnut in the story).
Besides this being one of my favorite SF movies (even though I don't
like the way they ended it) I can't see how they can improve on it
with a remake. They might try to razzle-dazzle us with special
effects, but that is not what it's all about! It would probably ruin
it. They can't follow the original story, as they did with "The
Thing", it doesn't have what it takes to make it. With all the good
SF out there, why do they have to do remakes? Look at the super job
they did with "Lathe of Heaven"! We need more NEW works, no
rehashes. What was so terrific about TDTEST was it was a period
film. It played on the sentiments and feeling of the cold war times.
The same premise today would be laughed at.

                    "Gort, Klaatu berada nickto!"

                                                wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Oct 84 11:53 EDT
From: Winston B. Edmond <wbe@bbn-vax.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Red Sonja

   A couple years ago I saw the rumor that a Red Sonja movie was
going to be made, but it's been so long I figured the idea had been
dropped.
   Are you sure that Conan appears in the movie?  Red Sonja and
Conan were supposed to be contemporaries, but what little I remember
of the original announcement indicated it was a movie about her, not
her and Conan.
 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Oct 84 19:54:38 edt
From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai

Has anyone seen the soundtrack for Buckaroo Banzai anywhere,
particularly in the Boston area?  The movie finally seems to be
getting a following, it was sold out here in one theatre and almost
at the other one it was showing at.  Are we just crazy, or are there
other people out there going around quoting the movie all of the
time?
                                        -Mark
"John Beluga is dead,
 he fell on his head."
          -John Kent

------------------------------

Date: 14 October 1984 20:20-EDT
From: John G. Aspinall <JGA @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai and Repo Man - weird and REALLY INTENSE WEIRD

Within the past week I saw "Buckaroo Banzai" and "Repo Man".

I had high hopes for Buckaroo Banzai.  I've read "The Crying of Lot
49", I enjoy conspiracy theories, I identify with the ideal of a
"competent man" (a la Heinlein).  I was looking forward to some
interesting entertainment.  But I was a little disappointed.  While
Buckaroo Banzai achieves a level of weirdness at times, the overall
impression was that they could have done much more with the good
ideas they had.  The film resorted to physical chase scenes on the
level of Starsky-and-Hutch mind-pablum too often instead of offering
an intelligent, or humorous, or even, yes, weird solution to the
protagonist's problems.

If you want WEIRD, check out Repo Man.  This story of a punk turned
auto-repossesor (repo man) and his intersection with an old Chevy
carrying alien material liberated from Los Alamos has the flavor
that Banzai should've had.  The running jokes that keep recurring
through the movie give it a sustained humor.  And it's got a better
soundtrack too.

 John Aspinall.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Oct 1984 14:14-EDT
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: twilight zone

        I saw the shows in question last Friday on local uhf (they
had nine hours of episodes that night). The 'guide' said that the
shows on the special were never aired before, but I know for a fact
that I saw the "Sounds of Silence" 'many moons ago'. Have all of
these in fact been seen before? I was rather disappointed.

                                                wesm@mitre-b

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 1984 13:24:19-EDT
From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday
Subject: Invasion Of The Space Nazis

   NBC has announced that V (the whatever) is starting soon.  I
would like to propose the following point of netiquette:

   Whereas: 'V' has proven itself to be written by a bunch of
            mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall
            when the revolution comes, and

   Whereas: Flaming about the above is a waste of time better spent
            picking lint off of a dog, and

   Whereas: Precedent already exists in the case of Light-Bulb_Jokes

   Be It Moved That: Henceforth, anyone posting messages about the
            series 'V' have his/her message returned without
            inclusion, and be forced to re-read the novelization of
            said series.

   Robert A Zimmermann
   (raz@cmu-ee-faraday)

"Whose M-grams did you use doctor?"
"Why my own, of course.  I haven't lost my mind, I've got it backed
         up on tape"

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 84 18:44:46 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #184

     The first episode was titled "The Cage", NOT "The Menagerie".
Among the things that the networks didn't like were a female
second-in-command and an alien. Roddenberry then got private funding
and made "Where No Man Has Gone Before". The actor who played Pike
was busy, so Shatner was given the part.  Roddenberry wanted an
alien, so Spock was kept (and Nimoy in the role). Gary Lockwood was
given a part because the networks liked him.

     Roddenberry, not one to waste anything, later made "The
Menagerie" by intercutting it with pieces from "The Cage". Quite a
few years later he realized that the only color negative was cut up
for use in "The Menagerie", so all that is left is black and white.
And no, it doesnt seem to matter much to the story.

llap

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 84 10:23:33 EDT
From: TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: The Menagerie

 >"Spock was the only character in both pilots, and in "Menagerie"
 >(originally called "The Cage") he was highly emotional and had RED
 >skin (I don't remember if he was called a Vulcan, a Martian, or
 >unspecified pointy-eared token alien)."

        RED skin!  I remember Star Trek well enough to know that
Spock was white since the program's creation.  The only colored
person in the episode was the blue dancer in one of Pike's
illusionary dreams.  Also, although they did not use the character
of Number One, Majel Barret later became Nurse Chapel (Something to
do with her being married to Gene Roddenbery, I think).
        While I'm on the subject of Star Trek, I've got a great new
game for you.  Invite several friends over and see if you can guess
what episode it is as soon as the show starts, even before they roll
the titles.  It's fast, it's fun, and can stir up debates among your
friends as to the true nature of the plotline.  Guess how many red
shirts(security guards) buy it in the show.  Figure out if Spock is
going to get emotional enough to call Kirk "Jim."  Also, take bets
on whether or not Scotty can come up with a good excuse for why the
ship doesn't work.  You'll be amazed at how much you know, and how
much you think you know.  Unfortunately, I am one of those blessed
(or cursed, depending on how you look at it) with the ability to
know all about an episode within 30-40 seconds of the start, so I
disqualify myself from playing when my friends and I get together.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1984 1725-GDT
From: CCD-ARG (on Dundee Tech DEC20) <CCD-ARG@dct>
Subject: Star Trek pilots

>        Re: "The Menagerie" (Star Trek): it was the first pilot,
>not the second.  James R. Kirk was Captain in the second pilot,
>which was indeed "Where No Man Has Gone Before".  Spock was the
>only character in both pilots, and in "Menagerie" (originally
>called "The Cage") he

Yes "The Menagerie" was indeed based on the first pilot. I can only
assume that I was suffering severe disconnection of brain neurons
when I wrote it.

Surely you mean James T Kirk ?

Although Spock was the only character in both, he was not the only
actor to appear as a regular later. 'Number One' was written out of
the series but the actress then went on to play Nurse Christine
Chapel.

I seem to recall that Spock was actually the character the TV
company least wanted to see survive ! Maybe someone could relate the
story behind the two pilots better than the details I can remember ?

        Alan (Alan%Dct%ddxa@ucl-cs.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Sun 14 Oct 84 19:41:43-EDT
From: Janice Eisen
Subject: Star Trek

Spock was known as a "Vulcanian" in "The Cage."  Although you will
see old info about the show describing his skin as reddish, if you
watch the portions reproduced in color in "The Menagerie," you will
note no red coloring at all.  What you will notice is that he smiles
at some sort of vibrating plant -- they hadn't decided he was
emotionless yet.  You may also notice he is limping -- this is
explained in the original pilot as the result of a battle on that
planet where Pike later fantasizes saving Vina from that big, hairy,
grunting savage.
                                Janice
                                Former (VERY former) Trekkie

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 84 19:45:59-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!oliveb!tymix!figmo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Star Trek Joke

Have you heard the name of Star Trek IV?

        "YOU KLINGON SONS, YOU KILLED MY BASTARD!"

--Lynn Gold
{...hplabs!oliveb!tymix!figmo}

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 12 Oct 1984 10:08:10-PDT
From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Bring back Barbarella

In a recent digest, LATZKO@RU-BLUE ended several movie reviews with
the comment "Bring back Barbarella."  Well, she's back, at least if
you have a VCR.  Barbarella is one of a number of videotapes being
released soon at the bargain price of $23.50.  Given some of the
other titles in the list (Star Trek I and II), I think that these
all may be from Universal.

I'm looking forward to renting this - I saw it when it was first
released, but realize that it has been cut some in the meantime.
(Did you know that you can also get "Flesh Gordon" on videotape?)

        Steve Lionel
        ARPA: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
        UUCP: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orphan!lionel
        MCI:  Steve Lionel (177-0623)

"God is real unless declared integer."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #187
Date: 18 Oct 84 1132-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #187
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Oct 84 1132-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #187
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Oct 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 187

Today's Topics:

          Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & Mainstream Criticism,
          Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Remakes,
          Television - The Twilight Zone,
          Video - Star Wars, 
          Miscellaneous - Activities in the Rochester NY Area

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday, 15 Oct 1984 15:20:15-PDT
From: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: flaws in "Dune"

   Regarding Greg Finnegan's defense of "Dune" and "The Integral
Trees": I would actually fault "Dune" on more than just bad
characterization.  The planet of Arrakis is ridiculous from an
ecological point of view.  The main form of life on Arrakis is these
sandworms: a kilometer long, a hundred meters in diameter, and
powerful enough to push their way through sand.  What do the
sandworms live on?  Bacteria that live in the sand, I guess.  And
what would the bacteria live on?  Where do they get their energy?
Sand is opaque to sunlight.  Get more than a couple of millimeters
into a sand dune and there is nothing to use for photosynthesis.  No
light, no energy, and so no life.  The bottom of the ocean is
sterile for the same reason, except for the critters that feed on
the detritus that floats down from the surface.  The surface of Dune
is just rock and sand; hardly even any lichen.  There isn't enough
green matter to feed a snake, much less something with the energy
needs of a sandworm.
    There's other silly stuff too, like the doctor with the
unbreakable training for loyalty, who is broken by threats against
his wife.  A blackmailer will first try to threaten you, and then
threaten your relations.  "Damn, didn't think of that", the doctor's
trainers no doubt muttered.  The breeding program for the Kwisatz
Haderach seems to be a cumbersome way to go about it.  If you are
looking for people who can see into the future, and know enough
about the talent to know that it's linked to the Y chromosome (since
only males have it), then, jeez, go in and modify the Y chromosome
instead of monkeying about for 500 generations.  If you've got
starships and galactic empires a little genetic engineering can't be
too tough.

     A more general complaint against Herbert is that manipulation
is such a constant theme in his work.  All of his characters are
continually plotting against one another, trying to control one
another.  It gets tiresome after a while.  You can only read so many
pages about the detailed analysis of an eyebrow twitch.  Why can't
they just leave one another alone?  But Herbert seems to accept
manipulation as an inevitability.  Paul Muad'dib can see the future,
and so is the supreme manipulator, and so gets to be ruler of the
galaxy.  Why should anybody rule the galaxy?  Why can't people rule
themselves, or at least have some say in who rules them?  Paul is
supposed to be a hero, but Herbert forces him into becoming this
religious tyrant.  A real hero would overthrow the Emperor and then
provide justice and liberty for all.  Instead we get this young,
handsome Ayatollah.  Herbert seemed to like the idea, since he wrote
five more books on the theme, with Paul becoming steadily more
god-like.  The plots become steadily more complex, the manipulations
more devious.  Quite a few readers stopped caring, but there are
enough head-game fans out there to keep Herbert on the best-seller
lists.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 84 19:57:08 PDT (Wed)
Subject: Re: Herbert, and his other good book
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

  Second the motion for "Dragon in the Sea", which it still was when
I first read it.  I'm sorry to hear about the title "21st Century
Sub"; it seems to me to miss the point.

  I also want to suggest "The Dosadi Experiment" as a powerful story
(I regret I have not read the one before it, "Whipping Star").
Though only moderate on characterisations, it has all of Herbert's
talent for complex intrigues and hidden motivations, all bound up in
alien cultures.  I also found the details of the Gowachin legal
system fascinating, if very uncomfortable.

  To refer to what started this debate, in the case of the Dune
movie, I hardly think it matters how well (or poorly) Herbert has
succeeded with his other books.  His position as the creator of the
Dune world is what makes his opinion on the movie valuable.  If he
feels that it states adequately on the screen what he wanted to say
in the book, knowing better than anybody else can just what the book
is trying to say, then I for one feel encouraged about the movie.

  (Of course, if you hold the opinion that the creator of a work is
simply its starting point, and that it grows from there through the
interpretations of its audience, then the above is not necessarily
true.  I don't hold that opinion personally, so I defer further
discussion to people who do.)

  As for financial persuasions, Herbert is not one of the struggling
writers who must, for practical reasons, let money take precedence
over art.  He is widely published, with a number of well-known
books.  He has worked in a broad range of fields and gained a number
of qualifications.  And I know of at least one precedent, in the
case of Paddy Cheyevsky, for an author's refusing the fruits of a
disagreeable modification of his work (in fact, in Cheyevsky's case,
disowning the modification entirely).  So although the possibility
exists that he is simply contributing to the lining of his own
pocket, I think the probability is comfortably low.

                                        A. Milne
                                        UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Oct 1984 10:09:46-PDT
From: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: Mainstream criticism

   Has anyone else noticed how misguided mainstream book reviewers
are with regard to science fiction?  Most of them ignore it
completely of course, but even the ones that do pay attention seem
to have no idea what is going on.  They will heap praise on someone
like Doris Lessing, who uses the most heavy-handed symbolism and
cliched settings, and ignore someone like C. J. Cherryh, who has
been writing the most consistently interesting stuff of the last
five years.  They think that Stanislaw Lem or Jorge Luis Borges are
the pinnacle of SF achievement.  Certainly these are good authors,
but they are way outside the normal channels of SF.  "Dhalgren" got
a lot of attention from the mainstream, but most fans found it
unreadable.  Are the mainstream people simply stupid?  Possibly,
since most of them live in the inbred culture of Manhattan.
Manhattan itself is so hard on the nerves, and so much advertising
and television has come from there that perhaps it does deaden its
inhabitants.
    But I have another theory.  When outsiders read science fiction,
I think they read it as allegory.  All these exotic settings and
adventures are just symbols for things in present day life.  A story
about running out of oxygen on Mars is no different to them than one
about running out of water in the Sahara.  Mars is just another
locale, like medieval France would be in a historical romance.
Doris Lessings' books are called the the Canopus Archives series.
Canopus is a very bright and therefore short-lived star and so would
not have habitable planets.  But if you pointed that out to them,
they would say "Look, she's trying to talk about racism and
relations between the sexes and here you are bringing in
astrophysics."
    But to us, the fans, the excitement of science fiction is that
IT ACTUALLY MIGHT HAPPEN THIS WAY.  There actually might be galactic
civilizations out there, and they are not likely to be based on
Canopus.  The aliens are not likely to be Lessings' humanoids, and
if they have problems between their sexes, it's because it's hard to
arrange for all 23 sexes to be in one place at one time.  We want to
know what it would really be like to live on Mars, to meet aliens,
or to travel through time.
    It may sound paradoxical, but the attraction of science fiction
is that it does have this hold on reality.  If anything can happen,
then why should one care about anything that does?  That's why the
fans gave up on "Dhalgren".  Here was this guy in a surreal city
with incomprehensible things happening to him. The mainstream
critics read "Dhalgren" as a metaphor for all city life.  SF fans
kept hoping to find out what was going on.  Well, that wasn't the
point.  Delany was saying that you never do find out, that life is
just a series of episodes with no climax and no conclusion.
Modernists love that kind of stuff.  Half of Stanislaw Lem's books
have the same theme.  SF fans, though, have a yearn to KNOW, and
feel cheated when nothing is resolved.  The mainstream is willing to
give up verisimilitude for literary style, and we are not.

John Redford

P.S. And what did you think of the rumbling spaceships in "Star
Wars"?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 1984 12:36:25 EDT
From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet (Macintosh
From: Devaluation Manager)@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai meets the Big Apple

    Buckaroo Banzai does, indeed, exist up in the Big Apple; right
now, it's playing at both the D.W.Griffith and Murray Hill theatres.
The "New Yorker" magazine, darling of us East Coast intellectual
types, did a lengthy review of the movie in the 8/20 issue, and is
using the following capsule review in its 'In Brief' section while
it's still at the local theatres:

     Making his debut as a director, W. D. (Dick) Richter doesn't
bring out the baroque lunacy of the material -- a kind of fermented
parody of "M*A*S*H," "Star Wars," "Raiders of the Lost Ark," and the
TV series "The A-Team" -- but though the characters don't develop
and the laughs don't build or come together, the film's uninflected
deadpan tone is somehow likable.  Dr. Buckaroo Banzai (Peter
Weller), the half-Japanese, half-American hero, is a neurosurgeon, a
physicist, a jet-car racer (who goes right through a mountain), and
the leader of the Team Banzai -- seven dapper whiz-bang Renaissance
men.  For relaxation, Buckaroo and a few of the others have formed
their own rock group, the Hong Kong Cavaliers, and it's at a
Cavaliers performance in a New Jersey night spot that the
hypersensitive Buckaroo picks up the disturbed vibes of someone in
the audience; that's how he meets the heroine, Penny Priddy (Ellen
Barkin).  Richter and the scriptwriter, Earl Mac Rauch, don't seem
to have an angle of vision on the interplanetary fantasy world they
present; what they've got is an unmoored hipsterism and a lot of
inventiveness.  As Dr. Lizardo, the mad-genius villain (a
comic-strip mixture of Eisenstein, Klaus Kinski, and a Wagnerian
tenor), John Lithgow gives the movie the anchor it needs.
White-faced, with bloodshot eyes, dark, greenish teeth, and a wild
foreign accent, Lithgow's Dr. Lizardo can make you crazy with
happiness.  With Jeff Goldblum, Matt Clark as the Secretary of
Defense, Carl Lumbly as the friendly alien who disguises himself as
a Rastafarian, Christopher Lloyd, Vincent Schiavelli, Rosalind Cash,
Ronald Lacey, and the platinum-blond Lewis Smith.  The picture's
visual style helps to compensate for the absence of directorial
style; the production designer was J. Micheal Riva.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 84 09:07:16 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: More Banzaroo Buckeye

Will Buckaroo Banzai make enough of a profit to justify sequels?
Will Marvel (or is it DC?) continue to publish the comic book?  Will
Mac Rauch write more BB novels?  Stay tuned til next week, same
Banzai time, same Banzai channel ...

Seriously, I was wondering if any of you out there could resolve a
disagreement between Commander T'Lydown and myself: did Mac Rauch
(author of "Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension" the novel, and
given "Written By" credit in the movie) write the movie first, or
the novel?  Or were they created simultaneously?  In fact, any
information on the genesis of the BB project (not the character,
which is fairly well explained in the novel) would be greatly
appreciated.

Please, no speculation (unless it's an educated guess).  I'd like
some cold hard facts.  Pointers to documentation (written or
otherwise) would be just as useful.

"Massacre a'them, and give a'them not a quarter!"

"The clock, she is a'ticking!"

"BUT WHY ME, JOHN BIGBOOTE?"
"IT MIGHT BE BOOBYTRAPPED!"
"OH..."

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Oct 84 12:31:37-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Remakes

Will they remake The Day The Earth Stood Still?

Of course they will!  After all, they remade Lost Horizon into a
musical; they remade The Blue Lagoon into a skin flick; they even
remade King Kong into a hairy horrible DISASTER.

There is NO limit to the utter nerdishness of these people.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Oct 1984 07:28:03-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Re: twilight zone, the anniversary special

In the Boston area, the special was aired on Channel 38, followed by
- get this! - SEVEN SOLID HOURS of favorite TZ episodes.  The
on-camera announcer for Ch. 38 said several times that the three
episodes they ran as the "special" had never been SYNDICATED before.
This statement is a lot different from "never aired before."

Cheers,
Dick Binder   ("Beware the Jabberwock, my son!")

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 84 19:12:40-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!oliveb!tymix!figmo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: rotj and tesb videocassettes wanted

"The Empire Strikes Back" is supposed to be out on videocassette and
laserdisk around Christmas.  Some video stores are already taking
orders (I have mine in!).

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 84 14:14 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Rochester SF Film/Video

It's looking like a promising autumn for SF film lovers in the
Rochester area.  The Dryden Theater has several SF movies scheduled
in its current series, including THX-1138 (last week), Little Shop
of Horrors, and one more I forget (I don't have the catalog here).
For those who may not know, the Dryden is located in the Eastman
House, aka. the George Eastman International Museum of Photography.
They regularly assemble film series on various themes often showing
rare and unusual movies from their archives, including some on
nitrate stock (!).

Also, channel 31 WUHF will be showing 11 Twilight Zones in a row
starting at 9 PM, Friday, November 2nd (crank up your VCR's).
Included will be three rarely seen episodes (due to legal problems,
according to the newspaper) "A Short Drink from a Certain Fountain",
with Patrick O'Neal and Ruta Lee, 1963; "Sounds and Silences", with
John McGiver, 1964; and "Miniatures" with Robert Duvall, 1963.

"Miniatures" is to be shown using a computer-controlled coloring
process developed by Viacom Industries.  The paper says they
digitize each frame and assign colors to every object in the scene.
The computer then colors each object and tracks it from frame to
frame, coloring subsequent frames automatically (that's what they
said).  This I have to see.

Finally, the Little Theater is showing Metropolis (the rock music
version).  Enjoy!
                        - Michel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #188
Date: 22 Oct 84 1252-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #188
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 84 1252-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #188
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:

                 Administrivia - Returned Messages,
                 Books - Herbert (5 msgs) & Worms &
                         Mainstream Criticism (2 msgs),
                 Films - Remakes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 84 12:17:45 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Returned messages

        It seems that all the unemployed gremlins have somehow
gotten into the mailer system.  Many people have been complaining
that messages to SFLOVERS@RUTGERS have been returned for some reason
by the mailer.  If you will look closely at the messages you will
probably note that the address that is being rejected is
SF-LOVERS-USENET@SRI-UNIX.  This is our connection to the Usenet and
net.sf.
        Have no fear folks, your messages are getting through to me
and will be put into digests as soon as I can.  Where your messages
are NOT going is to net.sf although messages FROM there are being
received.
        Apparently SRI-UNIX is doing some hardware switching and we
got lost in the shuffle.  I have someone looking into it and
hopefully the problem will resolved within a week.  If not I plan to
sit down with my copy of the Necronomicon and whip up a demon or
two to "fix" things for us....

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Thu Oct 18 19:24:41 1984
From: mclure@sri-unix
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #187

I found digest V9 #187 quite depressing.  John Redford has
completely deflated one of my favorite books, DUNE.  I reread DUNE
every couple years and am always pleased that its complexity of
dialogue, description, plot, etc., are always interesting yet
another time.

Now, I don't know. I think we can all find unrealistic things in
most major SF works, but why point them out? They just spoil it
for those of us who hadn't noticed them.

I hope John will spare us any further comments on major works.
These are not meant to be scientific journal articles, you know.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 84 10:35:16-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!zehntel!ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax.arpa
Subject: Re: Comment on Dune movie

Perhaps, if John W. Campbell, Jr., were still around to make
suggestions as I understand that he did on the original DUNE
books, there would be more satisfaction with Herbert's
satisfaction?

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Oct 1984 09:44:05-PDT
From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: DUNE FLAMING

In issue 187, John Redford attacked Herbert's Dune on story content
and on the plausability of the ecological background.  While most of
his points about the story were correct, he should stay away from
analyzing the ecology.  Anyone who has opened up a septic tank can
tell you that bacteria don't need light or for that matter oxygen to
do quite well thank you.  And as for a large creature existing on
small organisms, all you have to do is look in our seas for an
example of that.  Herbert's "hobby" is ecology and he manages to use
it as a sub-theme in many of his books.  As for the Bene Geserit
breeding program, remember the Butlerian Jihad would of inhibited
them from using the necessary equipment to use genetic engineering.
I agree that the continual plot within a plot can get tedius and in
the books that followed Dune, Herbert raised that to an art form
that few readers appreciated.  The Dosadi Experiment I think was his
best balance of involuted plot and action.  As for having Herbert's
"seal of approval" on Dune, the movie, the only seal I'm interested
in is my own and I think he wants another fish so.......

                                       "F L A M E   O N"

                                          Jim Feldman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 15:13 EDT
From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Redford: Flaws in "Dune"

To open this, I'll state what I believe is the definition of SF in
general:

        *Fiction dealing with the future, including events made
                possible only by advances in technology.*

But the drawing card for SF lovers is its open speculation of the
future, with few holds barred.  Since this leaves the imagination to
run rampant, only gross flaws in known science or continuity of the
story line can ruin the concept, bad writing can ruin the story.
The nits at which you pick hardly makes "Dune" a poor
characterization.  F'instance-

The ecology of Dune: nuts, we don't even understand our own that
well!  Certain whales eat nothing but plankton, and it doesn't take
much imagination to believe a story with sand whales, plankton, and
everything else that goes along.  If Herbert were to go into such
trivial detail, explaining every aspect, he'd never have published
the book, it would have collapsed from it own mass.

Loyality training: many persons, myself included, take physical
risks without much concern for themselves.  But threaten harm on my
family!, that's a different matter, I'd become very worried, perhaps
paranoid, and the emotional stress would become quite severe.  It's
an obvious thing to do.  In fact, terrorists do it all the time.

Breeding of humans: recall that Herbert's society refuses to use
computers, instead using mentats, and new technology is shunned-
only the Scythians experiment with it, and all their "products" are
sold underground.  Does the technology have to exist?  The Chinese
had gunpowder for years before a European invented the firearm.
Accept the premise, it has factual basis, and is necessary for the
plot.  Or, write a book.

Herbert' theme: Anyone remember the old saw "ultimate power corrupts
ultimately?"  From Julius Ceasar thru George Washington to Dick
Nixon, history rubs our noses in it.  Not that the hero always asks
for it- Washington refused a third presidential term after
suggestions were made that he should be made king. The "hero rescues
princess and sets up utopian libertarian society" theme is a gross
oversimplification that made Star Wars so enjoyable to so many,
after a hard day on the job, it's a complete escape from reality.
In the real world, heroes are often forced by circumstance to do
things they would rather not.  And manipulation is a constant fact
of life.  If this were not true, books such as "Dress for Success,"
"The 60 Second Manager," etc., would not be so popular.

In all, I found "Dune" very enjoyable- intriguing and believeable.
It could make a good movie.  To enjoy SF in general, one must
remember- this is the author's world, not your own.  And he writes
the rules.

Does anyone remember Lazarus Long's defination of a critic?

endofflame-regards-zot<schneider.wbst>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 1984  16:30 EDT
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford)
Subject: flaws in "Dune"

Dammit.  Dune was FANTASY, and anyone reading it should know better
than to criticize it for ecological errors.  You do raise a few good
points, though:

(1) Breeding vs. Engineering.  The Tleilaxu (implicitly) had
considerable genetic engineering ability.  They couldn't make a
Kwisatz Haderach.  Dune makes a very strong distinction between
mechanistic technology (Ix, the computers purged by the Butlerian
jihad, the Guild) and artful use of the world around you (the Bene
Gesserit, the Fremen).  Having the Bene Gesserit go out and engineer
their prophet, or even the possibility of their doing so, would
destroy this basic theme.

(2) Manipulation vs. "Freedom".  Again, another juxtaposition.  The
big manipulators are principally represented among the evil or
ambiguous characters (the Baron, particularly in his incarnation in
Alia; the Sisterhood).  Characters such as the old Duke or Paul
Atreides are merely *aware* of the manipulation; they do not engage
in it themselves.  The Fremen do not practice it at all.  In the
end, it is the Fremen, whose principal trait is their openness, who
defeat the agents of the Emperor, and it is this tradition that
Muad'Dib represents.

Of course, these themes vanish, for the most part, after the first
book.  It is a pity that Herbert's volumes of cheap suspense
(Hellstrom's Hive, the BuSab books) overwhelmed the force of the
(ecologically ridiculous) world he created.

--Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 84 23:18:50 EDT
From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARP
From: A
Subject: Worms & Shockwave Rider

In a message about Shockwave Rider by John Brunner, mention was made
by HODGES.PA@XEROX.ARPA of a paper in an ACM or IEEE journal about
worms.  Does anyone know the journal and issue the article was in?
In general, I'd be interested in hearing about articles in the
literature about worms.
                      Michael D'Alessandro
                      Dept. of Computer Science
                      Wayne State University

Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 01:43:44 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Mainstream criticism

I agree with John Redford's point that mainstream reviewers unfairly
ignore genre sf, but I think he falls into overgeneralization when
he begins to discuss the reasons why this occurs.

People who read just genre sf become a bit limited in their
thinking.  The point I want to make is not 'Gee, you should read at
least one mainstream book for every sf book or else your brain will
become peach cobbler' -- rather, it's that sf is not by any means
the only genre which mainstream reviewers ignore.  There are all
kinds of genre devotees; the world is not divided into us (sf) and
them (mainstream).  My father, for example, is a Western addict.
Occasionally he finds a really good book and lends it to me.  A
really good WESTERN?  You're kidding, right?  Everyone knows that
Westerns are unreadable; after all, none of them are ever good
enough to be reviewed in major magazines...  But to my amazement, my
father finds them, and their quality is that much more obvious for
its being unexpected.

So why aren't I posting to western-lovers, you cynically ask?  The
truth is, I do have a special affection for sf -- but I try not to
let this be an infatuation.  People who read only one kind of
fiction eventually end up without the imagination to appreciate why
someone else's tastes differ.  This is as true of 'mainstream'
devotees as it is of sf fans.  Worse, this leads to a kind of false
nationalism: if the other side likes this book, surely it can't be
worth reading.  If you take seriously remarks like, 'Are the
mainstream people simply stupid?', then you risk slipping into the
worst sort of jingoism.

John Redford's comments on Lem and Borges are telling.  (Beware!
Advance warning -- I may be the biggest Lem fan and probably one of
the top 10 Borges fans in Salt Lake County.) Just because the
establishment 'approves' of these writers doesn't mean that their
works aren't sf.  Upon reading the Newsweek review of Lem's latest
book to be translated into English, IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE (I have a
copy but I haven't read it yet; a review will come later), I get the
feeling that at least some 'mainstream' reviewers completely miss
the central expressions and themes of Lem's work.  John's comments
('Half of Stanislaw Lem's books have the same theme') lead me to
suspect that he has missed the boat, too.  I can't imagine how John
managed to get the idea that Lem is a proponent of world-weary
nihilism -- this attitude runs completely contrary to everything
I've ever read in Lem.  It's true that Lem is often subtle and
devious (as in one of my absolute favorite novels, THE
INVESTIGATION), but how can anyone criticize exhilaratingly playful
works like THE CYBERIAD as being reducible to modernist allegory?

John Redford knocks Doris Lessing for not paying attention to
astrophysics.  I've never read any of Lessing's books, so I have no
opinion about them; but I do have an opinion about the sort of qualm
which John voices, namely that it's silly.  'Real' scientists don't
read sf for precisely the reason that it doesn't pay enough
attention to science.  They notice so many boners while reading a
story that they can't maintain their interest.  In addition to the
problems with scientific 'accuracy', many stories don't seem to
expend any effort to strive for psychological or sociological
verisimilitude.  It strikes me that unbelievable plot or
characterization is just as distracting as unbelievable science.  My
favorite kind of sf story is one that so overwhelms me with
consistency and detail, with the clarity of its vision, that I can
BE there, in the story.  If some element of the story is somewhat
bogus, I can often be convinced to play along if everything else
fits together nicely.  The fact that a book (or movie :-) seems to
accept that explosions in vacuum are audible doesn't make me
immediately say, 'Well, that's another five bucks down the
toilet...'

How do other people feel?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 84 10:51:32 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: Mainstream criticism
From: Colvin.PA@XEROX.ARPA

In John Redford's message he says

>  "When outsiders read science fiction, I think they read it as
>  allegory.  All these exotic settings and adventures are just
>  symbols for things in present day life ........But to us, the
>  fans, the excitement of science fiction is that IT ACTUALLY MIGHT
>  HAPPEN THIS WAY."

I disagree with this and think that just the opposite is true. Good
Science Fiction typically presents a world or environment which is
very different from our own, but which causes us to relate it and
compare it to our own world and environment, thus giving us a
different perspective upon which to look at our present world. Much
SF does not even pretend that "IT ACTUALLY MIGHT HAPPEN THIS WAY"
and some portray it as already having happened. Yet even these can
cause us to look at our own world in comparision with the one being
described. This different perspective is what the mainstream critics
are looking at, and what makes good Science Fiction good.

  -- Craig

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Oct 1984 05:27:44-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Remakes

> From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA

> Will they remake The Day The Earth Stood Still?
>
> Of course they will!  After all, they remade Lost Horizon into a
> musical; they remade The Blue Lagoon into a skin flick; they even
> remade King Kong into a hairy horrible DISASTER.
>
> There is NO limit to the utter nerdishness of these people.

On the other hand, the remakes of both THE THING and INVASION OF THE
BODY SNATCHERS were, in their own ways, reasonably good (and
different) movies. Some later versions of DRACULA are better (in my
opinion) than the Tod Browning film. And (to go slightly off the sf
track) there had been a few earlier film versions of THE THREE
MUSKETEERS than Richard Lester's, but his two films are, as far as
I'm concerned, the best costume-drama/adventure films ever made. And
the John Huston/Humphrey Bogart THE MALTESE FALCON was also a
remake. And don't forget GREYSTOKE, which despite its faults, is
better than most of the many previous Tarzan movies.

While I question the need for a remake of THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD
STILL, it's quite possible that with some creative people in
control, it could turn out to be a decent product. Let's not rant
and rave about "them" until we find out who "they" are.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
         decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #189
Date: 22 Oct 84 1323-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #189
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 84 1323-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #189
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Oct 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:

              Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & The Talisman,
              Films - Buckaroo Banzai (3 msgs),
              Television - SF Commercial & V (2 msgs),
              Videos - Barbarella

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 19:55:33 edt
From: csin!cjh@cca-unix
Subject: dragons; Herbert

In a belated response to the "dragonlady" asking for stories about
dragons, I recommend THE SLEEPING DRAGON and THE SWORD AND THE
CHAIN, Joel Rosenberg's first and second books. The dragon is not
central, but a source of much of the plot. Much grittier (and to an
Anachronist, much more true-to-life) than most fantasies.

John Redford asks why the Bene Gesserit didn't go in for direct
genetic manipulation. Two answers: (1) \\Nobody// had suggested a
plausible form of what we now call genetic manipulation (i.e.,
actually cutting and pasting chromosomes) in SF when DUNE was
written, and I don't think anybody had suggested it outside of
(possibly) extremely technical journals (Damon Knight put
chromosomes in a solution that swells them to a manageable size, but
this is in a near-fantasy context and only for plants). Herbert's
imagination can be faulted here, but only mildly. (2) Manipulations
such as Heinlein described in BEYOND THIS HORIZON (test-tube
fertilization using inferred-"best" sperm and ova) are presently
more than many churchmen can stomach. Given the religious
prohibition to computers in DUNE, why should direct manipulation be
tolerated?
   I would point out in contrast to JR's increasing dislike (which
parallels my own) of this series that a local biologist/cynic/fan
has become increasingly fascinated with the philosophical concept of
the ruler as a deliberate, race-improving predator Herbert has been
dealing with (no, the fan is not a eugenicist or a Wilsonian).

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 22 Oct 84 8:42:26 EDT
Subject: Dune bugs

Gawrsh!  You mean it's legal to criticize Dune and Dhalgren?

Bout time...I pushed my way through Dune when it first appeared (I
was 17) and read it again ten years later.  The bugs were still
there, as was the pompous, agonizing self-importance of it all.
Herbert, who claims to be an ecologist, may be the biggest phony in
the business.  For example:

1) The worms would not only starve to death, they would collapse
under their own weight.  Even if they were considerably less dense
than water (which seems unlikely given the descriptions in the
books) their mass would be unable to support itself.  As oceanlife,
no sweat.  Futzing about a desert, nossir, I don't buy it.

2) Less clear-cut but worth discussing is the notion that any
ecology must have a certain critical mass of living species to
sustain itself.  Biologist Barry Gehm dismissed Dune as an ecology
story because "it's an ecology with three moving parts."  Where's
the rest of the food chain?

3) We are now on the verge of being able to terraform whole planets.
I find it hard to accept that a human culture capable of
interstellar flight would live on such an arid rockball without
remaking it to their own tastes.  Virtually all stellar systems are
likely to have comet haloes even if there is no water-rich planet or
moon in the system.  Diverting a few dozen comets to impact on Dune
should be a cinch.  Herbert, who claims such insight into human
nature, should accept that the human desire for comfort would render
Dune either Earthlike in short order or abandoned as more trouble
than it's worth.

4) The geriatric spice (as I have said here before) is so important
that it will be synthesized, atom by atom if need be, on every world
where humans live.  Once we crack FTL travel (as a measure of
engineering accomplsihment) NOTHING in the universe will be found in
Only One Place.  Especially something so crucial as a chemical which
wards off death.

One would assume that a man who claims to be an expert on ecology
would have thought of these hassles, any of which would wound the
Dune concept's viability, and all of which taken together prove the
man either knows diddle about ecology (which was a hot buzzword when
the book was written) or he's been putting us on for fifteen years
and really doesn't give a damn.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox

  The Misch Metal Rat

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Oct 84 18:01:59 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: A review of THE TALISMAN by Stephen King and Peter Straub

THE TALISMAN.  Stephen King and Peter Straub.  Viking, 1984
(hardcover).

Non-spoiler review: A good read but not the best work of either
author.

Micro-spoiler review:

This is a fantasy novel written by two horror authors.  While the
fantasy setting is interesting, more loving attention is given to
grue than to developing the background or the characters, which is a
pity.  The story revolves around a boy of 12 named Jack Sawyer, who
discovers that his late father's mysterious disappearances had a
reason: he could transfer himself into a parallel universe called
the Territories, which contains analogues of people and events in
our universe but works by different, magical principles.  Jack is
drawn into the Territories on a quest to recover the Talisman, a
magical object of terrible power and significance.  In places the
book is tender and funny, but unfortunately it dwells too long on
situations that are meant to be frightening but don't advance the
plot or even fill in the setting.  The book creates some stiff
competition for itself by making analogies to THE LORD OF THE RINGS,
TOM SAWYER and HUCKLEBERRY FINN, and perhaps Zelazny's Amber series,
and I don't think it lives up to its promise.  The collaboration
between King and Straub is seamless, as far as the prose is
concerned; only the occasional parenthetical remark in italics
(King) or a Lovecraftian horror (Straub) reminds you that two people
wrote this book.

Mini-spoiler review:

Although the two universes themselves are a bit sketchy, King and
Straub do have a lot of fun with the interface between the worlds.
The 'sympathy' between the universes brings constant surprises, and
a number of curious consequences are worked out; the most
interesting is the idea that the frightening and unexplainable
events that are the usual subject of horror novels are in fact the
result of the interpenetration of our universe with the Territories.
(The reverse may also be true, of course: scary things in the
Territories may be the result of invasions from our universe!) For
example, Jack meets a friend in the Territories who is good-natured,
not too bright, and has animal characteristics (paws for feet, thick
body hair, etc.); on introduction to our universe, the friend turns
out to be a werewolf...

The contrast between the universes also makes for some very funny
scenes.  There should be a word for this technique (like anachronism
but referring to different cultures) but I can't think of it...  I
won't give these away, you'll have to discover them for yourself.
King's touch for characters is evident in a number of places, too,
and this makes for some nicely realistic situations.  Some of the
scary scenes are really scary, and the climax (although it lacks
some coherence) is exciting.  But the book as a whole seems flat and
occasionally a bit staged.  Some of the flatness comes from the
feeling that this is exclusively a boys' book; the curious family
arrangements of the main characters are present in order to make a
simplistic thematic statement.  While simplicity is not always bad
(and can be popular: witness Spielberg's movies (I hear that
Spielberg has optioned THE TALISMAN)), I think this novel could have
been more interesting if it had followed up some of its
complications.  For example, the idea is mentioned that the
Territories have their own parallel universe behind them, but this
is never really followed up.  And despite the references to TOM
SAWYER and HUCKLEBERRY FINN, THE TALISMAN lacks the depth of these
novels -- Twain's works are not merely boys' novels, they are
satirical reflections of the world of adults in the actions of
children.

I don't mean to say that THE TALISMAN is necessarily a bad novel,
it's just that I'm disappointed by the missed opportunities in it.
Both authors have done much better.  Don't pay $18.95 for it...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 84 23:37:59 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: genesis of "Buckeroo Banzai"

From what I've read, Rauch had been fooling around with scripts
based on this character for years.  He finally found someone crazy
enough to agree to actually make one of them.  The sources I've seen
would definitely indicate that the script (and probably the movie
itself) came well before the book.

                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 84 09:52:40 PDT (Friday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai meets the Big Apple

>As Dr. Lizardo, the mad-genius villain (a comic-strip mixture of
>Eisenstein, Klaus Kinski, and a Wagnerian tenor),

Huh.  I would have said "a comic-strip mixture of Mussolini, John
Belushi, and Father Guido Sarducci."

Perfect Tommy:  "Why me?"
Buckaroo:       "Because you're perfect."
Perfect Tommy:  "You've got a point there ..."

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Oct 84 15:49:05 edt
From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai--Background info

In response to Perry (Caro.PA@XEROX)'s request for background
information about the BB project, here are some excerpts from the
Production Information included with the advertising packet from
20th Century Fox.

[Author Earl Mac Rauch writes] "When I'd first come out to L.A.,
Rick [producer W.D.Richter] and his wife Susan had advanced me money
to start work on a script about an unusual guy which I called 'Find
the Jetcar, Said the President----A Buckaroo Banzai Thriller.'"
Rauch quit after about ninety pages, but over the years started
other fantastic Buckaroo yarns, which Richter collected.  In 1980,
Richter and producer Neil Canton formed a partnership and ultimately
convinced David Begelman and Sherwood Productions to back the
outlandish adventure story.  Rauch wrote a whole new draft entitled
"Lepers from Saturn," which metamorphosed into "The Adventures of
Buckaroo Banzai," Richter's debut as a director."

Rauch doesn't quit remember the genesis of "Buckaroo Banzai," but he
does recall the it was started after a period in which he had
briefly changed his name to John Texas.  "I wanted to write some
kind of pulp serial about a guy who's rich enough to do whatever he
wants, someone who's a cross between Mick Jagger and Michael
DeBakey, someone humane with the ability to exist outside the
system, with the kind of instant recognition Sherlock Holmes and
James Bond have."

With the movie and the novelization finished, Rauch is already
toying with the idea of sequels.  "My next story," he says, "deals
with Buckaroo's struggles with Hanoi Zan, boss of the infamous World
Crime League."

Richter and Rauch started the project over 9 years ago, and an
entire world has been created.  Hopefully he will find backing for
the sequel.  The packet says for further information, and to obtain
the publications "Hard Facts and Persistent Rumors" and "Moving
Through Matter", write

        Banzai Institute for
          Biomedical Engineering and
          Strategic Information
        c/o 20th Century Fox
        P.O. Box 900
        Beverly Hills, CA  90213
                                        -Mark Rosenstein
"Use'a more honey--find out a'what she knows"

------------------------------

Date: Fri Oct 19 20:16:33 1984
From: mclure@sri-unix
Subject: SF commercial

The latest British Airways commercial is a delight. I don't know
much about its production history but it looks awfully expensive.
Has anyone else seen it? It's the one with a couple of moon-men
discovering a British Airways terminal on the moon after their LEM
takes off without them. After the commercial there's a scene coming
up from behind the moon to reveal the Earth pretty similar to that
scene in the opening dialogue of THE INVADERS (TV series, 1960's).

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 84  9:39:52 EDT
From: Ronald L. Singleton <rsingle@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Invasion of the Space Nazis

    I agree with Zimmerman (SF-Lovers Digest, 17 Oct).  Since it
seems that a huge majority of SFL'ers are, to say the least,
"disappointed" with "V" and any following of the story line, it
seems useless for us to flame at each other.

    Instead, someone post the address and we can start a
letter-writing campaign.  That probably won't help as long as they
are making money from the series, but when "V" is cancelled we can
feel that we may have been part of the influence that caused it.

    New Subject: I am about to finish "Juxtaposition:" is there
more, or is this a true trilogy? Please respond directly to me.

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 1984 12:35:34-PDT
From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
Subject: Re: Invasion Of The Space Nazis

   Robert A Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday):

   Be It Moved That: Henceforth, anyone posting messages about the
            series 'V' have his/her message returned without
            inclusion, and be forced to re-read the novelization of
            said series.

While I agree that "V" is mostly drivel, it does have its moments.
(Remember the mercenary's line, "Too bad, they would have made great
luggage.")

I propose a friendly amendment to your motion: have ONE person post
a plot synopsis after each episode, along with his or her judgement
as to whether or not the episode is worth catching in reruns.

I volunteer.  However, I may not catch all the episodes.  If you'd
like to volunteer too, please send me PERSONAL MAIL saying so.  We
can rotate the duty or something.

Unless, of course, I get publicly humiliated for this suggestion.

                                        -- Roger Goun

ARPA:    goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}!
         decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
         100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:     (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Oct 1984 04:58:34-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Bring back Barbarella

> From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
> In a recent digest, LATZKO@RU-BLUE ended several movie reviews
> with the comment "Bring back Barbarella."  Well, she's back, at
> least if you have a VCR.  Barbarella is one of a number of
> videotapes being released soon at the bargain price of $23.50.
> Given some of the other titles in the list (Star Trek I and II), I
> think that these all may be from Universal.

But Steve, the TREK pictures (and BARBARELLA for that matter) are
from Paramount, not Universal.

> (Did you know that you can also get "Flesh Gordon" on videotape?)

FLESH GORDON has been available on tape for some time now, but
considering how emasculated (so to speak) the "R" rated version is,
I refuse to consider watching it.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #190
Date: 26 Oct 84 1136-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #190
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Oct 84 1136-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #190
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 190

Today's Topics:

             Art - Don Davis Paintings,
             Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & King & Varley &
                     Waldrop & SF Stories,
             Television - V,
             Misc - Horror Films & Worm Literature &
                    Columbia SF Marathon & Updated SF Cons List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 84 14:16:44 PDT (Monday)
From: nowicki.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Don Davis space art paintings for sale

Two airbrush paintings by Emmy award-winning space artist Don Davis
for sale --

Comet: Painting of a comet whizzing though space.  The comet's tail
and background stars predominate the view; the comet is rushing
toward the viewer.  The painting is 15"w x 14"h; framed size is 18"w
x 19"h.

Nebula: Painting of the inside view of a nebula, an area where stars
are being born.  Delightful star forms are within the nebula, along
with unusual cloud-like formations.  Painting is 20"w x 24"h; framed
size the same.

Don Davis paintings have been published in "Cosmos" and "The Dragons
of Eden" by Carl Sagan, "The New Solar System", and in numerous
issues of "Sky and Telescope" and other astronomical magazines.  He
was awarded an Emmy, along with a group of space artists, for his
work on the "Cosmos" TV series.  Don Davis is noted both for his
imaginative views of outer space, and for the scientific research he
puts behind his paintings.  He is currently working on a book of his
paintings; the nebula painting will be published in this book.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 23 Oct 1984 10:31:32-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: More comments on DUNE, the book

> As for the Bene Geserit breeding program, remember the Butlerian
> Jihad would of inhibited them from using the necessary equipment
> to use genetic engineering.

Oh, no, not at all.  The specific object of the Butlerian Jihad was
embodied in the O.C. Bible, "Thou shalt not make a machine in the
likeness of a man's mind."  Genetic engineering, pfui!  The Bene
Gesserit programme made a far better story, because it dealt with
the realities of people and their behaviour.  Remember, the Lady
Jessica was ordered to produce a FEMALE Atreides, who was to be
inbred with a Harkonnen to produce the Kwisatz Haderach.  But she
disobeyed orders, for reasons that even she herself couldn't
explain.  All of this byplay, whilst it is meaningless in regard to
the very EXISTENCE of the Lisan al Gaib, who could indeed have been
designed as was Heinlein's Friday, makes for some very insightful
interplay between Paul and his mother.  Example:

"What have you DONE to me??"

"I gave you birth."

> Loyality training: many persons, myself included, take physical
> risks without much concern for themselves.  But threaten harm on
> my family!, that's a different matter, I'd become very worried,
> perhaps paranoid, and the emotional stress would become quite
> severe.  It's an obvious thing to do.  In fact, terrorists do it
> all the time.

Loyalty training is a very real thing.  Partly instinctive, and
partly instilled habit, it is quite solidly based in history.  The
US Marines, British SAS, or any other crack military organisation
DEPENDS upon the fact that its personnel have been thoroughly
indoctrinated to function under the belief that the whole is more
valuable than the one, and the one must never betray the whole.
There's no reason such training could not be applied in a much more
permanent and deep-seated fashion by the proper use of psychology or
mind-altering substances or both.

> Herbert' theme: Anyone remember the old saw "ultimate power
> corrupts ultimately?"  From Julius Ceasar thru George Washington
> to Dick Nixon, history rubs our noses in it.

Absolutely.  Almost all of human nature is driven by the desire to
have power in one form or another, even the procreational urge,
which grants power by numbers of presumably loyal offspring.  Only
what we so blithely call civilisation has changed that instinctive
animalistic outlook.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   ("Beware the Jabberwock, my son!")

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
       decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 84  18:36 EDT (Tue)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: DUNE: tleilaxu couldn't produce kwisatz haderach? (slight
Subject: spoiler)

    (1) Breeding vs. Engineering.  The Tleilaxu (implicitly) had
    considerable genetic engineering ability.  They couldn't make a
    Kwisatz Haderach.

They most certainly could, and did!  This particular piece comes
from the discussion had by the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam,
Princess Irulan, the Tleilaxu Face Dancer Scytale and a Guild
Steersman Edric.  Page 20 of DUNE MESSIAH:

    "Because we once bread a kwisatz haderach of our own," Scytale
said.
    With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother
looked up at him.  "You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
    "You didn't ask," Scytale said.
    "How did you overcome your kwisatz haderach?" Irulan asked.
    "A creature who has spent his life creating one particular
representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the
antithesis of that representation," Scytale said.
    "I do not understand," Edric ventured.
     "He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled.

That paragraph details the plot of the whole book.  In the end,
Muad'dib walks willingly to his death in the desert.

There are other references.  In THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA, the listing
for a particular DUNCAN IDAHO ghola (as we know, the Tleilaxu
produced Duncan Idaho gholas for the God Emperor Leto during his
entire 3500 year reign) it says:

    "A reconstruction of the artificial Kwisatz Haderach that the
Bene Tleilax had created during the regency of Alia Atreides..."

In HERETICS OF DUNE, the latest (and final?) Duncan Idaho ghola is,
once again, "altered" by the Tleilaxu.  This time he is not the
kwisatz haderach that the bene Gesserit must fear, but the one male
that all the "honored matres" of the Scattering abhor...

So, they CAN, COULD and DID make them.

------------------------------

From: draper%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Margaret Draper)
Date: Tue Oct 23 14:35:38 1984
Subject: Shephen King

A friend told me Shephen King has written some SF.  Have i missed
something????

     M.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 84 19:10:13 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.SV@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION
Cc: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA, marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA

John Varley's classic short story collection THE PERSISTENCE OF
VISION is once again in print, published by Berkley.  Normally, this
would be an occasion for celebration, since this is one of the
greatest short story collections of all time, and my copy of the old
Dell edition was "borrowed" years ago and never returned.
Unfortunately, the new edition has two serious flaws:

(1) The cover painting, a rendition of a Symb-Human pair floating in
space, is inaccurate and moderately ugly.  Certainly the old cover,
of two null-suited people playing in a pool of mercury, was
preferable.  Oh well.

(2) Approximately two pages of text are simply omitted from "In the
Bowl", near the top of page 173.  The omitted text includes the
climax of the story.  This is really inexcuseable, and I intend to
write to the publisher and complain.

On balance, I still recommend the book, but not as strongly as I
expected to.  Those of you lucky enough to still have a Dell
edition, hold on to it.  Except for one of you, who should sell it
to me!

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1984 22:19-PDT
Subject: Them Bones, a short review
From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA

Them Bones, by Howard Waldrop, is the most recent entry in the new
Ace Science Fiction Specials.  This series, which has been of uneven
quality, although tending toward the good, almost lost me as a
steady purchaser with the publication of Palimpsests by Scholz &
Harcourt, a truly awful book.  Fortunately, things are looking up
with Them Bones.  The basic premise (which you can get by reading
the back cover) is that the survivors of World War III, using
imperfect technology, want to send a medium-sized expedition back to
the 1930's to try to alter history in order to avert WWIII.
(Interestingly enough, Waldrop finesses away the time travel
paradox.)  The story soon splits into three separate time lines: the
major one concerns a scout who gets separated in time from everyone
else, and winds up settling down with some casual Indians from the
14th century in a world whose history has been dominated by Islam
(although this is just background).  Most of the story concerns the
scout hanging out with the Indians.  The second major story line is
about a group of archeologists in 1929 trying to figure out what
horse skulls and bullet casings are doing in a 14th century burial
mound.  Finally, there is the rest of the original expedition, also
lost in time. It is really not as complicated as it might seem, and
makes for a pleasant afternoon's reading.  The writing is clear and
straightforward, and full of nice little humorous touches.  I was a
little disappointed (as I was with Pohl's Heechee Rendevous) that
there never seemed to be much point to the story.  But, there are
enough good bits along the way to make it worth while.
        (mark)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 23 Oct 84 20:46:39-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: SF stories: could they "actually happen that way"?

Rather than requiring of a science fiction story that "it might
actually happen that way", I think a better requirement is that the
story present a "possible world".  It is not OUR world, in ways
either subtle or blatant, but it has an internal logic and
consistency that make it believable.  Of course, believability is a
matter of personal taste and is based on several points.  Scientific
accuracy is just one point, although it is fairly important.
Believable characters (with comprehensible motivations) are also
useful.  The richness of the environment in which the story takes
place can also make it more believable, even if this richness is
based on something that seems implausible.  Dune is a beautiful
example of this kind of science fiction.

Something like spaceships noisily exploding in a vacuum is a
different issue from all this.  Gene Roddenberry was smart enough to
know that spaceships don't whoosh past, and designed the opening to
Star Trek accordingly.  But it felt dead, to himself and everyone
else.  So he added the whoosh, and whadda ya know?  It felt right,
even though it is absurd.  If technical accuracy gets in the way of
telling the story (and of making it feel believable), then I'm
willing to suspend disbelief a little and let it go by.

        Larry Seiler

PS - The claim about mainstream reviewers' opinion about SF - that
it is just an allegory told using technological props - is an
excellent description of Star Wars.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 07:54 PDT
From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: V

First of all, I read the novel before I saw the mini-series.  I
liked it.  Many of the flaws of the mini-series are avoided in the
novel, and other flaws were molified by Crispin's writing.

Having seen the mini-series next, I liked it.  Not great SF, of
course, but it had it's fun moments.  (Mostly, I was impressed with
the use of images: the spray painted V, the initial discovery of the
no-humanity of the Visitors, the balloons.  And, I can argue with
the scientific complaints -- those about the biology presented all
assume that the physiology of the Visitors must be exactly like
lizards on our planet.  Since they're aliens, that's silly.  And all
of you who reject the series because the idea of a human/Visitor
child is impossible, must all hate Star Trek, too, since it's
ridiculous to think a green-blooded Vulcan could mate with a human.)
I'll watch the series, at least for laughs.

So, I have to cry "censorship!" in response to Ronald Singleton's
suggestion that a letter campaign be started to try to have the
series cancelled.  If you don't like the series, don't watch it!
Let the rest of us have our low-grade fun.  And if you think that
better SF shows should be made -- and I certainly agree -- start a
letter campaign urging that.  The failure of "V" won't encourage the
making of better TV SF, only discourage the making of it at all.  Of
course, some people would like that idea, believing SF belongs only
in writing, but I'm a Star Trek fan, and would love to see something
like ST hit the airwaves again.

--Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 22 Oct 1984 18:15:21-PDT
From: herbison%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (B.J.)
Subject: Horror films

If you live in Eastern Massachusetts and have not decided what to do
on All Saints Eve (or Halloween for that matter), I suggest you
check out the Worcester Art Museum.

They are putting on "It Came From the Worcester Art Museum", 13
hours of horror films from the 1950s: The Thing (1951), Invasion of
the Body Snatchers (1956), The Blob (1956), Forbidden Planet (1956),
Tarantula (1955), I Was a Teenage Werewolf (1958), The Tingler
(1959).

There is an admission charge.  For more information call
617/799-4406 extension 269.  The address of the museum is 55
Salisbury Street; Worcester, MA 01609.

[The museum is also worth visiting during regular hours:
        10:00 - 17:00 Tuesday through Saturday,
        13:00 - 17:00 Sunday, closed Mondays]

                                        See you on 31 October,
                                                B.J.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 23 Oct 84 16:23:01-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: The Worm Literature !

The article which quotes John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" is

    The "Worm" Programs - Early Experience with a Distributed
        Computation
    John F. Shoch and Jon A. Hupp
    Xerox Palo Alto Research Centre
    Communications of the ACM
    Vol. 25 #3 P.172  March 1982

The basic idea was to have distributed computations that replicate
themselves into idle machines, and that survive the sudden death of
the "worm segments".  Worked fine, but one day a mutant took over
100 machines and wouldn't let go.  It's a good article.

Don Lindsay                             Lindsay@Tartan.Arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 21:40:44 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Columbia SF marathon in Los Angeles

To those outside Southern California, sorry for the useless
information.

Saturday, November 19th, the LA County Museum of Art will be showing
an all day (12 noon to midnight) marathon of Columbia Studio's
science fiction and fantasy films.  The schedule:

                "The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T"
                "It Came From Beneath the Sea"
                "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad"
                "Mysterious Island"
                "20 Million Miles to Earth"
                "First Men in the Moon"
                "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" (original cut)

The prints should be pretty good, probably all in 35mm. Ther will be
an admission charge.  Note the preponderance of Ray Harryhausen
films.
                                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Oct 84 21:50:11-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: SF Cons list updated

SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for
FTP.  SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within
FTP, using any password.  CONS.TXT is currently 1235 lines (or
59,885 characters).

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #191
Date: 29 Oct 84 1214-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #191
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Oct 84 1214-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #191
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Oct 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:

              Books - Christopher & Herbert (5 msgs) &
                      SF Criticism (3 msgs),
              Films - Converting Books to Films

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue Oct 23 22:21:41 1984
From: mclure@sri-unix
Subject: Mark Twain in SF

The comments about Peter Straub's and Stephen King's book not living
up to Mark Twain is interesting.  Twain is a lot more complex than
most people think.  If we discount "local color" (the type of story
Twain was aiming for), we're left with long boyhood voyages, almost
epic in proportion.

I've read a lot of SF that would *seem* to fit this bill, but if
we're talking mainly of adolescent characters, there is only one
that really *does* fit the bill.  I mentioned it on this list 3 or 4
years ago and someone took a nasty swipe at me then, but I am not
afraid of mentioning it again.

The author is John Christopher and the books are: The White
Mountains, The City of Gold and Lead and The Pool of Fire.  It is
collectively known as The White Mountains Trilogy.  They were all
written more or less at once, so they don't suffer the usual
extremes in quality from book to book as found in most SF.  In fact
it actually improves as the story gets more complex.

To me, at least, this is the "ultimate" boyhood journey in fiction.
I like it much better than Twain's TOM SAWYER, HUCK FINN, LIFE ...
etc.  These three books were chiefly responsible for sparking my
interest in SF.

For comparision purposes I have read a lot of Heinlein "juveniles"
and juveniles by other authors.  None hold a candle to TWMT.  Sadly,
a reading of Christopher's other juveniles revealed no works at a
similar level.

Take this as fond nostalgia of an interest sparked in my youth, but
I have reread the books as an adult (?) and still enjoy them very
much.
        Stuart

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 24 Oct 84 8:21:43 EDT
Subject: Machines will always win

I witheld this point from my last message on Dune because it needs
some elbow room, but now that the discussion has gotten lively...

Yet another hassle with Dune involves a basic question of human
nature: Can human beings resist the lure of high technology?
Herbert, who is a roots'n'berries type, plainly distrusts anything
which can either think or manipulate human genes which is not itself
human.  So we have the Butlerian Jihad which deep sixes all
computers except for (not surprisingly) robot gardeners to water the
roots'n'berries.  This is completely against human nature, but
understandable given Herbert's biases and the age in which Dune was
written.

There is a deeply flawed but still funny book called Player Piano by
Kurt Vonnegut in which a malcontent brings down a heavily automated
society, then finds (to his horror) that the common citizenry begins
to tinker the hateful machines back together again.  TI sold a
million "home computers" to people with no earthly use for one, and
I get ten mail order catalogs a week full of computerized blotters,
computerized air fresheners, and gawdonlyknows what else.  Some
might call this a fluke of the times, but I see in it a reflection
of the forces which accelerated our evolution and our dominance of
the planet: Man made tools <> Tools made Man.  Our fascination with
technology runs right into our genes and there is no getting rid of
it now.

History has shown us a number of jihads against various things, but
a jihad against high technology wouldn't work, in part because it
runs powerfully against human nature, and mostly because technology
is a mighty powerful force in favor of its own continued existence.
If you wipe out (almost) all the high tech from a planet, the
revolutionaries who take up the fragments and embrace technology
again will plow you under in a hurry.  No one has ever captured this
notion better than an old Vaughn Bode cartoon starring Cheech
Wizard, who is being pursued by a karate-chopping oriental mystic
who professes to be pure of spirit and hence invincible-- until
Cheech blows his head off with a shotgun.  "Welcum ta da West,
Gooko!" says Cheech.

Pit the techies against the roots'n'berries types, and the techies
will win EVERY time.  Religious fervor will triumph against
everything except technology.

Herbert should have quit after writing Under Pressure, the submarine
tugboat novel.

--Jeff Duntemann
  duntemann.wbst@xerox
  The Wolfram Rat

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 84 09:36:56 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Dune bugs
From: Colvin.pa@XEROX.ARPA

In Jeff Duntemann's message regarding Dune Bugs (SF-Lovers Digest
#189) he says

" We are now on the verge of being able to terraform whole planets."

WE ARE?!?!?!?

  -- Craig Colvin
Colvin.pa@XEROX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Oct 84 09:50:42-PDT
From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Author/Person

        Ouch, Jeff Duntemann did it again.  Listen, getting on a
soap box and spitting at authors is neither polite nor in the bounds
of discussions I care to read in this BB.  I am referring to "Dune
Bugs" in which he accuses Herbert of knowing "diddle about ecology",
"not giving a damn", und so weiter.
        If you don't like the book (and we agree here Mr. D.), then
just say so.  Point out all the flaws you want, but do not make a
frontal assault on the author.
        A reviewer who cannot make the distinction between a book
and the author clearly has no background in formal criticism, and
though BB's are intended for exchanging ideas, I question the ease
with which petty comments gain a wide audience.
        I don't propose censorship.  But a little good taste would
go a long way.
                                        Ron Cain (Cain@SRI-AI)

------------------------------

From: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa@Berkeley
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 84 16:43:03 edt
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS ARPA Digest

| Date: Fri, 19 Oct 1984  16:30 EDT
| From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
| To: redford%shorty.DEC@DELdecwrl.ARPA (John Redford)DEL
| Subject: flaws in "Dune"
|
| (1) Breeding vs. Engineering.  The Tleilaxu (implicitly) had
| considerable genetic engineering ability.  They couldn't make a
| Kwisatz Haderach.

Berkley Medallion edition, September 1975, DUNE MESSIAH (pp. 22-23):

        "We sold you a creature called Hayt," Scytale said.
        "Ah, yes -- Hayt," Edric said.  "Why did you sell him to us?"
        "Because we once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own,"
Scytale said.
        With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother
looked up at him.  "You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
        "You didn't ask," Scytale said.

For those who don't want to look it up, Edric was a Guild Navigator
and Scytale was a Tleilaxu Face Dancer.  This was part of a longer
conversation between the two, Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam,
and Princess Irulan.  Later on, Scytale revealed that their kwisatz
haderach had killed himself because "A creature who has spent his
life creating one particular representation of his selfhood will die
rather than become the antithesis of that representation".

--bsa (decvax!ucbvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa@Berkeley)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Oct 1984  03:46 EDT
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: DUNE: tleilaxu couldn't produce kwisatz haderach? (slight
Subject: spoiler)

Ah!  You go and quote DUNE MESSIAH at me!  Yes, the Tleilaxu claim
to have produced a Kwisatz Haderach.  (But my position on the worth
of the interminable sequels to DUNE as other than kindling has been
said too many times already.)

My point was that, in DUNE itself, the Tleilaxu had not and could
not have produced such a beast, their greatest accomplishment (and
partial failure) being the production of the sterile Face Dancers.
This was regarded throughout DUNE as the apex of Tleilaxu
engineering; it came nowhere near the level of another Muad'Dib.

An artificial distinction, perhaps, between the two books?  Maybe.
Unfortunately, Herbert is not the first author to fudge his future
in between sequels, and the ever-expanding abilities of the Tleilaxu
and Ixian technologists is not the only thing that changes.

--Jim

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 84 07:54 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Mainstream Criticism and Scientific Authenticity

Well, here are my two cents:

(plink plink)

Personally, I read SF for its escapist value as much as anything
else.  Good SF (for me) will have all the stuff that most people
think is important in a book (characterization, interesting plot,
...) but for the most part, I want something that is different from
the world that I live in. If I want to read about things that might
happen, I read regular fiction or spy novels. I don't compare the
world I am reading about in a SF novel to my own, and I don't think
of the setting as an allegory; I *WANT* something different and
completely removed from what I know in the real world. (Well-written
fantasy is as good to me as SF.)

Secondly, I think that it is really irresponsible for a SF writer to
use bad science in their work. There is enough that we don't know to
keep everyone busy writing SF with interesting scientific
speculation for a long time. Putting things that are just plain
wrong in a story disappoints those who know better, and gives those
who don't know any better the wrong idea. I would like to think that
I have learned something from SF or al least think that I haven't
been mislead into thinking that something might be possible when it
really isn't. Of course, there is always the willing suspension of
disbelief ...

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 18:20 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF Criticism

    I would like to ask those who object to noises in space (whining
engines, zapping lasers, etc.) whether they would have much fun at a
movie where all of the scenes in vacuum were absolutely silent??
(Perhaps background music only) Noise in space may not be very
realistic, but it adds to the effect of the movie. I, for one, am
willing to ignore the lack of absolute accuracy.

    Asto whether Herbert or any other author is totally accurate, I
personally look for internal consistency, not scientific perfection.
After all, even Niven's Ringworld has been shown to be unstable
(even with the corrections in Ringworld Engineers), and Niven is
someone who does more than his share of research into his science.
In my view of science fiction, I'm not reading about science, I'm
reading about people.  Peoples reaction to situations, events, etc.
The technology is a part of this, but only a part. A well-crafted
story (characters, plot, etc.) with poor science is better than a
poorly-crafted story with the science perfect (in my opinion).

   Oh, well. 'Nuff said.

 Brett Slocum
 Computer Sciences Center
 Honeywell, Inc.  MN09-1400
 10701 Lyndale Avenue South
 Bloomington, MN 55420

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 84 19:04:24 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Lazarus Longs definition of a critic goes something like
Subject: this:

    A critic is someone who is incapable of creative thought, and
thereby feels himself worthy of judging those who are; there is
justice in this, as he is unbiased: he hates all creative people
equally.

     I may be wrong, my copy of Time Enough For Love is not here
with me; that is the gist of it, however.

Rah!Rah!Rah!
have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 84 12:11:02 EDT
From: TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Movie conversions

Can I say a few words about the film industry in general?  When was
the last time any of you read a book, and found the screen
adaptation lacking?  Time and time again I overhear people leaving
the theatres saying
    'They should've included X or left out Y.  It would have made
    the film better than it was. In any case, the book was better.'
This comment holds true for most movie adaptations, and does not
limit itself to Sci-fi.  Everyone has their own interpretation of
what they read, and their opinion may be strikingly different from
your own.  This carries over to the movie industry, where the film
you see is the interpretation of several people combined-generally,
the producers, directors and writers.  What you see on the screen is
the decision of this group; they decide what to include, and what to
exclude from a movie. The major consideration has got to be time,
and there are limits as to how long the audience will sit for a
movie.  For some books, it would take as long as it took for you to
read it as it would to present it on the screen in a way that would
do the book justice.  As a result, many compromises have to be made;
scenes, characters, and themes are eliminated or combined to make
this happen.
        A special problem arises in Sci-fi: technical information.
Presenting it in an understandable manner is easy for us, because we
know a lot.  Unfortunately, the bulk of the population is not so
technically literate.  (remember the parsec thing in Star Wars?)
Here again, more compromises have to be made, and more of the
original context of the story is lost.  An example of this would be
in Blade Runner where the confirmation test for replicants was
reduced to the Voight-Kampf test; in the book the final confirmation
came from the bone marrow test.  Such fineness of detail is too
complex a concept for most people, so this was extracted from the
story for simplicity's sake.  I may not be giving the masses enough
credit, but I feel this is a semi-accurate description.
        Why write this now?  There has been much ado about Dune on
the digest, and I know for a fact that many of those who read the
book will not be happy with the final product.  Thank Zarquon that
Frank Herbert joined the production staff of the movie.  This will
keep Dune from being butchered as much as it could have been if
DeLaurentis went at it alone (as he did with King Kong).  Along the
way, some people (including a few of you) will not like what they
see, but that's life.  As for me, I will welcome someone else's view
of what the story is about.  I also may not like what I see, but at
least I'm willing to see it through someone else's eyes.
        To sum up, I just want you to realize that everyone has a
different opinion about everything.  Try to be a little more
tolerant when these people are conveying theirs.  If you don't like
it, go out to Hollywood and take up directing, producing or
whatever,and you can see what it takes to put a film together.(I
knew there was a reason I took that film course)

ps. as per the 'reality' of sandworms, I find them just as
believable as going backwards or forwards in time, travelling
through hyperspace, or creating androids 'more human than human'

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-Oct  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #192
Date: 31 Oct 84 0950-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #192
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Oct 84 0950-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #192
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 31 Oct 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:

            Books - Christopher & King (2 msgs) & Lem &
                    Varley & Waldrop & Story Request,
            Television - Varley on TV & V

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 21:14:09 -0200
From: eyal@wisdom (Eyal mozes)
Subject: the White Mountains Trilogy

Well, I'm really glad to know that someone else has heard about
these books!

In all my years at high-school in Israel, there was one good thing I
could say for our school system: that they included "The White
Mountains" in the English-class curriculum (It was provided in
simplified English, and the adaptation was quite good. They also
provided the other two books, each one written with a progressively
more advanced vocabulary, so that those interested in continuing the
trilogy were forced to work harder on their English). As far as I
remember, this was my first introduction to Science-fiction. For
some reason, however, I never heard of these books afterward, and
never had a chance to read them in the original.

I do, however, question the assertion that these are "the ultimate
juvenile journey in fiction". As much as I like these books, there
certainly are other juvenile books far superior to them in plot,
excitement, and appealing characters.  Examples are Heinleins
"Citizen of the Galaxy", and "Have Space Suit, Will Travel".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Oct 84 16:07:12 pdt
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
To: draper%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis
Subject: Re:  Shephen King

        The rumour mill has it that "Richard Bachman" is actually
Stephen King. He has written three "SF-horror" book: Rage, The Long
Walk, and The Running Man. I have never read the first, the second
two DO read like King, and I thought the last one was the best. You
should take this with a grain of salt (needless to say).

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 Oct 1984 01:55:09-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re SF by Stephen King

> From: draper%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Margaret Draper)
> A friend told me Shephen King has written some SF.  Have i missed
> something????

Well, it all depends on what borders you place on what sf is.  Three
of King's novels (CARRIE, THE DEAD ZONE, and FIRESTARTER) all
feature protagonists who have paranormal powers that are implicitly
(or in the case of the last one, explicitly) assumed to be of a
physiological, rather than supernatural, origin.  In my opinion,
this makes these books sf rather than fantasy.  As a matter of fact,
when THE DEAD ZONE was nominated for the World Fantasy Award for
Best Novel, King withdrew it, claiming that it was sf and not
fantasy.  And then there is THE STAND, whose premise is that 90% of
the world's population is wiped out by plague of "superflu" germs.
The book does drift into sequences of a fantasy nature, but the
first third of the book is solid sf. He also has a full-length novel
in the anthology DARK FORCES (edited by Kirby McCauley) called "The
Mist", in which a military/scientific project goes awry, ripping a
hole in a dimensional wall, and letting into our dimension a hoard
of real nasty critters (I mean *real* nasty --- these guys would eat
Godzilla for lunch, with The Alien as an appetizer and The Thing for
dessert).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 01:50:26 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Stanislaw Lem's IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE

IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE is the latest in a series of new Lem
translations from HBJ; this particular hardcover edition was
translated by Marc E.  Heine from an original that appeared in
Poland in 1973, with later revisions.  (Curiously, the dust jacket
claims that Lem lives in Vienna -- when did he leave Poland?  Part
of IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE was published in a Polish literary magazine
in Krakow in 1981...)

IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE is a companion to A PERFECT VACUUM; the latter
book is a collection of reviews of nonexistent books, the former is
a collection of introductions and excerpts from the same.  These
pieces run the gamut from silliness to facetiousness to pedantry to
philosophy.  NECROBES is a curiously rationalized introduction to a
book of pornographic X-ray images; ERUNTICS prepares us for the
story of a mad biologist who tries to teach bacteria English, and
succeeds beyond his expectations; the introduction to A HISTORY OF
BITIC LITERATURE is a rather dry and scholarly discussion of a
catalogue of texts written by machine intelligences; and the
introductory offer for VESTRAND'S EXTELOPEDIA IN 44 MAGNETOMES
drowns us in a tide of ridiculous neologisms as it gives us the hard
sell for an encyclopedia that is so up-to-date, it predicts the
future:

        In an extreme instance, in which there is a Propervirt of
        less than 0.9%, the TEXT OF THE PRESENT PROSPECTUS may
        likewise undergo an ABRUPT change.  If, while you are
        reading these sentences, the words begin to jump about, and
        the letters quiver and blur, please interrupt your reading
        for ten or twenty seconds to wipe your glasses, adjust your
        clothing, or the like, and then start reading AGAIN from the
        beginning, and NOT JUST from the place where your reading
        was interrupted, since such a TRANSFORMATION indicates that
        a correction of DEFICIENCIES is now taking place.

The core of IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE, however, is the extract from GOLEM
XIV, a book by and about a superintelligent computer.  Golem XIV was
the last in a line of machines produced by the US military in an
effort to close the artificial intelligence gap with the Russkies
(who, it turned out, were so far behind that the idea of competition
was silly).  Unfortunately, when called upon, Golem XIV refused to
act; it had better things to do...  Two of Golem XIV's lectures are
included in IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE: the first one discusses Man,
concentrating on the nature of human intelligence; the 43rd lecture
is about the potential for machine intelligence -- it expresses the
belief that not only are human beings incapable of appreciating the
reasoning of a computer as smart as Golem, but Golem is incapable of
understanding thought on the next level of intelligence, and so on
forever.  Is there any hope for advance?  Lem walks a narrow line by
pretending to be a superintelligent machine, and I don't think he
quite pulls it off, although the story is nevertheless very
interesting.

I found IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE to be less fun than A PERFECT VACUUM,
mainly because the prose seems a bit lifeless in places.  This may
be due to the different translations (VACUUM was translated by
Michael Kandel, the same fellow who was responsible for the
fantastic translation of THE CYBERIAD), although it's always
possible that the original was simply more turgid.  The best part is
Golem XIV's 43rd lecture, which (perhaps not coincidentally) was
written 8 years after the rest of the book.  Unless you're a diehard
Lem fan like me, you should probably wait for the paperback
edition...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

PS -- A quote for John Redford: 'Chronocurrent exformatics is based
on the existence of ISOTHEMES (q.v.).  An ISOTHEME is a line in
SEMANTIC SPACE (q.v.) passing through all thematically identical
publications...'

------------------------------

Date: Fri Oct 26 21:11:26 1984
From: mclure@sri-unix
Subject: Comments on Varley and others

This is in reply to Jef Poskanzer's comments about John Varley's THE
PERSISTENCE OF VISION.

I totally agree with his strong recommendation of the book.  I have
a signed copy of the first hardcover edition of PERSISTENCE.  It is
in my top four favorite books in all the fiction I have read (not
just SF), the others of which are Harlan Ellison's DEATHBIRD
STORIES, Robert Silverberg's DYING INSIDE, and Vladimir Nabokov's
LOLITA.

A common theme running throughout these books is a powerfully
centralized character with excellent dialogue and plotting and in
Ellison's and Nabokov's case, amazing use of the English language.
Nathaniel Hawthorne's THE SCARLET LETTER came quite close to being
added to these four, but I am still deciding.  I also detect a theme
of general despair in these works.  Perhaps it is my cynicism
manifesting itself!

Obviously we all have highly personal tastes in fiction, but if you
haven't read any of them, I recommend them.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 01:26:10 mdt
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Them Bones, a short review

Here's a second recommendation.  Waldrop is the author of 'The Ugly
Chickens', an amazingly amusing story (science fiction about
ornithology?!) which won the Nebula and World Fantasy awards, and if
you haven't read it, you're really missing something.  THEM BONES
has the same wit and style and is a lot of fun to read.  As Mark
Feber points out, the book is a little disappointing at the end,
since we don't get to follow up the consequences of the interesting
parallel universe (universes?) which Waldrop has constructed, but
the book mostly makes up for it by giving careful attention to the
setting and characters.  If you want to see Waldrop find a parallel
universe and extend it to its wacky limits, find the story he wrote
with Stephen Utley called 'Custer's Last Jump'; it's an insanely
funny tale of how the Battle of the Little Big Horn was fought with
dirigibles and biplanes, containing all the necessary supporting
documentation...

'Nunc audite verbum dei',

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 84 08:48:09 PST (Tue)
Subject: Here's the Plot - What's the Title?
From: "Jim Hester" <hester@uci-750a>

I read this long ago in the dark ages, and it has recently
resurfaced to haunt my thoughts.  Can anyone help me with some
pointers?

An inventor, working on a television with lots of extra gadgetry
added on suddenly gets a picture of the next room.  Fiddling with
some of the extra knobs he added causes the picture to shift
location, and he is able to get clear views of the goings-on
anywhere in the world.  Walls don't seem to matter to it.  He
further discovers that one of the knobs controls time, such that the
picture can be focused on any time in the past.  As a final assault
on our intelligence he fixes an addition that looks at the effect of
vibrations on surfaces in the picture, and reproduces the sounds in
the scene being viewed.

Realizing some of the consequences of such a discovery, he decides
that it should belong to the people, and so devises an elaborate
scheme of mailing plans to hundreds of places.  He develops a
special glue for false faces on the envelopes that is designed to
let go somewhere in the mailing process, making it harder to trace
where the plans originated.

The bulk of the story is concerned with the radical changes caused
in the world.  Crime is impossible, as is any form of privacy.
Religion takes a serious drubbing.  This was the part I only
remember parts of, and would like to review.  The story ends with
someone finally managing to trace the origin of the plans back
through the mail and assassinating the inventor.

Any help mill be gratefully received.           Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Oct 1984  10:56 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Salvation from the Space Nazis

Just when you thought facist lizards had usurped broadcast SF
forever, comes:

   `American Playhouse': Three Months at a Glance...

    Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (February 4) Raul Julia ia
    the antihero who becomes lost in the inner workings of
    a giant computer in the not-so-distant future. Written
    by Corinne Jacker, Directed by Doug Williams.

This comes staight from ``DIAL'', the program guide for WGBH,
Boston.  I assume the other public stations will be showing it at
the same time.

For those of you who don't know, @i<Overdrawn at the Memory Bank> is
a John Varley short story, anthologized in one of the DAW ``Best of
the Year'' collections, about a man who's memory is preserved in a
computer after his body is accidentally misplaced.

Let's hope for the best...

                      James Turner
                      ARPA: RG.JMTURN@MIT-OZ%MIT-MC
                      or for those with dumb mailers
                      ARPA: JMTURN@MIT-MC
                      UUCP: Left as an excercise to the reader

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 26 Oct 1984 18:35:00-PDT
From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
Subject: This week on "V"

When last we saw our heroes, Julie had developed a bacteria that
kills Visitors (and an antidote given to the "good" ones),
Elizardbeth had disabled the bomb, and Diana had just escaped from
the captured mothership in a fighter.  Now...V: The Series.

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

Donovan chases Diana in another fighter, shoots her down and
captures her.

It is one year later: Liberation Day.  Diana is to be put on trial
for "crimes against humanity."  But the evil head of the corporation
exploiting alien technology from the mothership has other ideas.  He
wants Diana to work for him in secret.  Tyler, the mercenary, is
enlisted to kidnap Diana from the authorities.

The kidnapping succeeds, but Donovan and Martin (a "good" alien)
follow.  When Martin tries to kill Diana, she escapes.  Martin dies.

Meanwhile, some news reporters show up at Elizardbeth's home in a
helicopter to interview her, but she pushes the 'copter away by
staring at it.  Later, Elizardbeth starts going through some sort of
metamorphosis.  She's all wrapped up in a cocoon and glowing with a
pulsing green light.  (I know, I don't believe this nonsense
either.)

Donovan and Tyler, who seems to have changed his mind (sigh), follow
Diana to a tracking station where she's calling the Visitor fleet
for help.  Lots of computers with flashing front panel lights get
blown up, and Diana escapes in a Visitor fighter that arrives just
in time.

Diana discovers that the red dye no longer seems to affect
uninnoculated Visitors.  As the episode ends, we see the Visitor
fleet hiding behind the Earth's moon.

There was more SF in the commercials than in "V".  Quasar had a
weird one with engineers in miner's helmets harvesting electronics
products from pods, straight out of "Invasion of the Body
Snatchers."  GE had a bad one with a space motif (space-saver
refrigerators, shuttle-shelves, etc.).  Polaroid's was the best: a
family on vacation runs into a pack of BEMs.  Unfortunately, they
forgot the film.

I'm not sure how much longer I can stand this.

                                        -- Roger Goun

ARPA:    goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}!
         decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
         100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:     (617) 689-1675

"Too bad, they would have made great luggage."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #193
Date:  1 Nov 84 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #193
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Nov 84 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #193
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 193

Today's Topics:

             Books - Herbert (5 msgs) & King (2 msgs) &
                     Wilson & Scientific Accuracy & 
                     Juvenile SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 1984  00:12 EST
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Machines will always win

Two assumptions you have made, neither of them true in all cases:

(1) Man = contemporary American technophiles

(2) Technology = militarily applicable technology

Let's take number one first.  Sure, people in the U.S. have made a
habit recently of wasting perfectly good resources on technological
gimmickry of questionable value in the hopes that it will make their
life better, their work easier, or their kids grow up to be other
than brain-damaged under-educated gas station attendants.  But there
have been cultures (feudal China comes to mind, or feudal Japan)
which had actively restricted technological development
*successfully* for two millennia.  Had European barbarians not
arrived without scruples against the use of guns, they would most
likely be doing it still.  In DUNE, there are no Europeans to arrive
and conquer; the local technologists are well-restricted, and the
Houses maintain a large stockpile of nukes to vaporize anybody who
might someday show up from the outside.  Note that the basically
feudal economy of DUNE furthermore tends to eliminate the
competitive pressure to acquire and use advanced machinery that is
present in our society.

My second point: historically, it must be admitted, no militarily
applicable technological advancement, once used, has been put back
in the box it came from.  But the machines restricted in DUNE are
not, in general, militarily useful within the context of DUNE's
interstellar society.  To what purpose can a computer be employed
when any weapon more powerful than a broadsword is ineffective,
suicidal, or both?  Fire control for bows and arrows?  Intelligence
in a world where major powers are guarded by intensely loyal family
servants?  (Or, for the bad guys, blind deaf-mutes?)  No application
of a restricted machine could possibly help any of the powers that
be, as its presence would, at best, undermine the very system on
which their power was based.

There are a number of flaws in the culture of DUNE, but the
Butlerian jihad and its effects are too similar to events in our own
history to be among them.

--Jim

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 30 Oct 84 11:16:17 EST
Subject: Flatworms of Dune

One last shot at DUNE and then it's on to moister and less touchy
pastures...

All of my objections to DUNE could be uneasily plastered over except
for one: The worms, as given, would flatten themselves by virtue of
their own mass, which is proportional to volume, which increases as
the cube of linear measure.  It's the same reason LAND OF THE GIANTS
was so silly, along with a host of grade B magnified-iguana movies.
Assuming the worms are carbon-based life pretty much as we know it,
they simply can't be that big and live, much less move around under
their own power.

The sad part is that Herbert should know that; he has had at least
as many hours of physics as I have (and I was an English major) and
ought to keep such fundamental rules of the universe in the corner
of his mind as he spins his yarns.  If he were an ignorant busboy in
a Chinese restaurant I guess I could forgive him, but he claims to
be a scientist, and a life scientist at that.  Shame on him.

Sadder still is the fact that a perfectly reasonable sandworm,
perhaps seventy feet long and six feet in diameter, could live on
DUNE and still be nothing I would want to encounter in the middle of
nowhere with nothing but a pointed stick in my hand.

I'll accept DUNE as fantasy, but hell, it's been shouted up the
rafters as science fiction (ecological science fiction at that) for
going on 15 years or so.  Samuel Delany, a man who at least knows
when to draw the line between SF and fantasy, holds that science
fiction must not "offend the known."  Time travel is even predicted
by certain solutions of Special Relativity, and hyperdrives fall out
into that area in which we do not yet know enough to say for sure
what offends the known.  But when you take an annelid worm and blow
it up to kilometer dimensions you are offending the bejayzus out of
the known.

I guess I oughta know better than to stick spears in sacred cows.
Moooooo!

--Jeff Duntemann
  The Invar Rat

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 30 Oct 84 11:32:14 EST
Subject: Terraforming

We are indeed on the verge of being able to terraform whole planets.
Two points to discuss:
  1) Some planets are more terraformable than others; and
  2) I take the long view on verges and their definitions.

As a terraforming target, Mars is a cinch.  We could do it right now
if we'd quit fooling around, ante up the bux, and do it.  James
Oberg reports the blow-by-blow in a superfine book called (I hope,
it's at home) NEW EARTHS on Stackpole Press.  Required reading for
those who take the science in science fiction seriously.

Venus is much rougher; heating is always easier than air
conditioning, and getting rid of atmospheric gas is always harder
than adding it.

Terraforming Titan would be harder still--but how hard, and for how
long, are you willing to work at it?

By "on the verge" I mean within the next hundred years.  If we don't
blow ourselves up within that time period there will be no end to
us, and the universe has a LONG way to go before it dies of old age.
On the (optimistic) timeline of the history of the human race, a
hundred years is nothing, nothing at all.

--Jeff Duntemann
  The Nichrome Rat

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 1984 10:11:29-PST
From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: technology in the genes

Re: innate human drive to be technological:

    I don't agree with Jeff Duntemann that human beings have an
innate fascination with technology.  We have been in our present
biological form for at least fifty thousand years now, and only in
the last five thousand have we done much with tools.  Only in the
last five hundred has technology really taken off.
    Now, you could make a case that people in Western civilization,
and Americans in particular, are fascinated by gadget-building.
That's because we're trained from birth to be interested in that
sort of stuff. First it's blocks, and then erector sets and
bicycles, and then cars and radios and computers.  In "Player
Piano", I think Vonnegut was referring to this American urge to
invent and not any innate instinct.  Vonnegut's mistake was to think
that once these automated factories were set up there would be
nothing left to invent or build.  In fact, machines have been
replacing hand labor since the start of the Industrial Revolution.
People are still working, though, and they'll keep finding something
to do when steel robots replace organic ones on the assembly lines.
   I would also disagree with the comment that the techies win every
time against the roots'n berries folk.  The British techies lost
against the Afghani primitives in the nineteenth century, and the
Russian techies are losing against them today.  For that matter, the
relatively primitive Russians beat the technologically sophisticated
Germans in World War II, and the barbaric Germans beat the
sophisticated Romans in classical times.  Of course, there are a lot
more cases of superior weapons aiding victory in warfare (Spanish
conquistadors, the British Raj, the Boxer Rebellion), but technology
alone is not enough.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 16:47 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Yet another DUNE message

    After reading several months of debate about DUNE, I feel it is
time to clear the air.  A compromise is in order.  Everyone who
doesn't like DUNE, don't see the movie.  (Novel idea, eh?) Or those
who didn't like the book might like the movie.  After all, it
probably won't be just like the book.  Everyone who liked it to some
degree, go see it.  Those who haven't read it, go see it.  This last
group will have the fewest prejudices, and therefore, will probably
like it the best.

    Now that that is out of the way, let's get on to some more
meaningful discussions.  I'm tired of reading about this.

     Brett Slocum

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Stephen King
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 19:47:08 EST
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
To: draper%lll-tis.arpa@LLL-TIS

    A friend told me Shephen King has written some SF.  Have i
missed something????

Yes, he has, but no, you haven't missed anything.  Check out recent
issues of F&SF.  The one with the cover story "Ganglion" (with the
hideous art) contains an awful piece by King--I forget the title,
but the plot is Frozen-Sleep-Colonization-Vessel-With-Crew-
Contingent-That-Runs-Into-Trouble.  (I believe Vogt did the premier
story of this type, reprinted as part of "Quest for the Future.")
King's reworking (I just remembered the title--"What makes us
human?") uses this and a straightforward Berserker-type artifact to
set up the background for a ridiculous morality cartoon.  Ugh.  F&SF
must have been desperate for filler.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 31 Oct 1984 23:43:56-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: Stephen King/Richard Bachman

> From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
>        The rumour mill has it that "Richard Bachman" is actually
> Stephen King. He has written three "SF-horror" book: Rage, The
> Long Walk, and The Running Man. I have never read the first, the
> second two DO read like King, and I thought the last one was the
> best. You should take this with a grain of salt (needless to say).

Yes, this rumor persists. In fact, a recent catalog I got from a
book dealer lists THE RUNNING MAN under King, and at the World
Fantasy Con, this dealer was insisting to me that the rumor is true.
I neglected to ask him later whether he succeeded in getting the
book autographed by King. I haven't read any of the Bachman books,
so I can't say yeah or nay as to similarity of styles, but ---

Three years ago, at the World Fantasy Con in New Haven, in answer to
a question I had regarding a rumor that he'd had a pseudonymous
novel published prior to CARRIE, King himself told me that, with the
exception of a short story or two published in men's magazines in
the early '70's, he has *not* been published under *any* pseudonyms.
Two bibliographies of King's work that I have seen acknowledge the
"Richard Bachman" rumor, but say that it has not been substantiated.

King has also mentioned, in print I believe (I will see if I can
find the source), that he is *not* Bachman, though he has met
Bachman, who is (or was) a fellow Bangorite. He believes that the
rumor started due to some confusion at NAL-Signet, the paperback
publisher of both King and Bachman, having to do with the fact that
they both come from Bangor.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 84 17:21:04 EST (Tuesday)
From: Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: New (?) Illuminatus book
Cc: Illuminafa.pa@XEROX.ARPA

I uncovered a new (or at least hitherto unknown to me) Illuminatus
production last week.  It's "The Earth Will Shake: Volume 1 of the
Historical Illuminatus Chronicles" by Robert Anton Wilson, published
by Bluejay Press.  It's copyright 1982, but the first printing is
dated August 84. The next volume, "The Window's Son", is 'coming
soon'.

It's done in a rather different style than "Illuminatus!",
"Schroedinger's Cat" or "Masks of the Illuminati".  I found it quite
amusing and look forward to the next volume.

-- somewhat incoherent nano-spoiler review follows --

The book centers on Sigismundo Celine, an adolescent in 18th century
Naples, who becomes involved in the usual (if you can call it that)
maze of conspiracies and strange Neapolitan & Sicilian behavior
involving people named Maldonado (all of them with huge noses),
Celine, Portinari, Joyce, Verey, Cagliostro, Mozart, Frankenstein,
and Robert <fill-in-the-name> Drake; among others.  The starring
conspiracies include Masons (four or five different flavors),
Jesuits, Dominicans, the >Rossi< (a bunch of proto-Bolsheviks),
>Allumbrados<, etc.  Blue garters appear occasionally.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 1984 10:02:59-PST
From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: value of scientific accuracy

Brett Slocum asks:

>    I would like to ask those who object to noises in space
> (whining engines, zapping lasers, etc.) whether they would have
> much fun at a movie where all of the scenes in vacuum were
> absolutely silent??

Well, 2001 tried to be accurate about noises in space by including
only noises in the spacesuit, mainly the astronaut's breathing. That
worked very well dramatically, since it gave the audience immediate
clues to his state of mind.  The airlock entrance scene was played
completely silently, and that added to its nightmarish quality.
Kubrick managed to be both scientifically correct and dramatically
interesting.  That's the combination that we are looking for.
Stories that are all science and no drama, like Hal Clement's, tend
to pall after a while, and stories that neglect the realistic
details risk losing the reader's suspension of disbelief.  If you
think that sandworms are ridiculous, then tense scenes about trying
to ride them have no impact.
    There is one other important reason to try and get the details
right. The real world is ultimately richer and more interesting than
anyone's imagination.  If you look for inspiration to real science,
you can never run out of ideas.  Lucas looked for inspiration to the
serials of the thirties, and as a result the "Star Wars" series was
played out by the third movie.  He fell back on blowing up the Death
Star again, on having another duel with the Force, on more spaceship
chases and dogfights.  If he had tried to imagine what an
interstellar civilization would really entail, he would not have had
to repeat himself so soon.  Sf writers have been working on them for
fifty years now, and "Downbelow Station" proves that the field is
not mined out.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: Wed Oct 31 20:06:59 1984
From: mclure@sri-unix
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #192

I contest Eyal Mozes' claim that Heinlein's CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY is
a better juvenile than Christopher's THE WHITE MOUNTAINS trilogy.  I
specifically read COTG because I had heard it was one of Heinlein's
best juvenlies and while it is good, I don't think it is the best.
Moreover, I think Heinlein is generally overrated as an author now.
In his time, he was the architect of major structural changes to the
genre of SF but now he is a historical figure of no practical
present importance.

        Stuart

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #194
Date:  5 Nov 84 1103-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #194
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Nov 84 1103-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #194
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:

                Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer &
                        Varley & Wilder,
                Comics - Star Trek,
                Radio - King's THE MIST

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 02 Nov 84 10:45:30 PST (Fri)
To: duntemann.wbst@xerox
Subject: Re: Flatworms of Dune / realism and suspension of disbelief
From: Martin D. Katz <katz@uci-750a>

   "The worms, as given, would flatten themselves by virtue of their
   own mass, which is proportional to volume, which increases as the
   cube of linear measure."

One should not assume that sand worms are overgrown annelid (earth
worm).  They could be designed with a strong arched internal support
in each segment.  The mass-volume rule you give only applies to
homogenous structures with no change in composition.  It only
applies approximately to real systems.  If it applied in all cases,
elephants could not walk.

Neither should one assume that an annelid is hollow and empty.
Worms living underground are partially supported on all sides by the
ground around them.  If they had to support the weight of the ground
above them they would indeed be flattened.  If a sand worm surfaces,
but is at least half-way submerged then the surrounding sand could
tend to help support the worm.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  2 Nov 1984 13:29:53-PST
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Will the DUNE controversy never end?

Rebuttal to ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA:

> Two assumptions you have made, neither of them true in all cases:
> (1) Man = contemporary American technophiles
> (2) Technology = militarily applicable technology
> Let's take number one first...
> ...Had European barbarians not arrived without scruples against
> the use of guns, they would most likely be doing it still.  In
> DUNE, there are no Europeans to arrive and conquer; the local
> technologists are well-restricted, and the Houses maintain a large
> stockpile of nukes to vaporize anybody who might someday show up
> from the outside.

ARRGGH!  The most serious violation of the Convention possible, as
pointed out just before the final battle in DUNE, is the use of
atomics against people.  Nuking the hypothetical outsiders isn't a
viable option.  As for scruples against the use of guns, Baron
Harkonnen seems not to have had any such, and his invasion of
Arrakis with artillery was therefore quite effective.

> My second point: historically, it must be admitted, no militarily
> applicable technological advancement, once used, has been put back
> in the box it came from.  But the machines restricted in DUNE are
> not, in general, militarily useful within the context of DUNE's
> interstellar society.  To what purpose can a computer be employed
> when any weapon more powerful than a broadsword is ineffective,
> suicidal, or both?  Fire control for bows and arrows?

Aw, c'mon now, this surmise borders on idiocy.  Consider the hunter-
seeker that was used in the initial attempt on Paul's life.  That
was a little more sophisticated than a broadsword, I'll wager.  If
such weapons are possible, what is the law of nature that says an
electronically aimed slow pellet cannon (whose projectiles explode
once inside a shield) won't work?  Such a device, controlled by even
a stupid automaton, could wreak havoc.  The key question here, then,
is rather at what point of sophistication said fire-control engine
becomes a machine built in the image of a man's mind - that is what
the Butlerian Jihad destroyed and the O.C. Bible prohibits.

And now, to give the other side equal time, rebuttal to
duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA:

> All of my objections to DUNE could be uneasily plastered over
> except for one: The worms, as given, would flatten themselves by
> virtue of their own mass, which is proportional to volume, which
> increases as the cube of linear measure.  It's the same reason
> LAND OF THE GIANTS was so silly, along with a host of grade B
> magnified-iguana movies.  Assuming the worms are carbon-based life
> pretty much as we know it, they simply can't be that big and live,
> much less move around under their own power.

This assumption is precisely the one that one CANNOT make -
otherwise, water and the ecology of the palmaries of the south of
Arrakis would not be so bloody deadly to the Makers.  The Arrakis
ecology is clearly not based on carbon-based life pretty much as we
know it.  Shall we try for silicon?  Silicon compounds have a much
higher strength to mass ratio than do similar ones based on carbon.
Also, given that the Makers are worms, the stress on any given
cross-sectional area is proportional to the square of the linear
dimension, not the cube.  It's a nit, but the difference, relative
to a creature that must support its body above the ground on legs,
is significant.  I admit, though, that a living creature 80-100
metres in diameter and two kilometres (half a league, wasn't it?)
long stretches my credulity even then.

> The sad part is that Herbert should know that; he has had at least
> as many hours of physics as I have (and I was an English major)
> and ought to keep such fundamental rules of the universe in the
> corner of his mind as he spins his yarns.  If he were an ignorant
> busboy in a Chinese restaurant I guess I could forgive him, but he
> claims to be a scientist, and a life scientist at that.  Shame on
> him.

Allow me to quote Ezra Pound: "You can spot the bad critic when he
starts by discussing the poet and not the poem."

Cheers,
Dick Binder   ("Beware the Jabberwock, my son!")

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!
       decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 05:04:02 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: David R. Palmer's EMERGENCE

EMERGENCE (Bantam, 1984; 291 pp.) is David R. Palmer's first novel,
and it's a humdinger of a science fiction adventure in the best
tradition of Analog and Astounding -- Campbell would have been proud
of it.  It's not surprising, then, that the first two sections were
published in Analog magazine, and they managed to garner a Nebula
nomination and two Hugo nominations...

The book is the diary of one Candy Smith-Foster, 11-year-old prodigy
and irrepressible heroine.  When a Russian first strike kills 99.9%
or more of the population of North America, Candy finds herself and
her obnoxious companion, a bright blue macaw named Terry, alone in a
huge fallout shelter which her foster father has had constructed
beneath their home in Wisconsin.  Normal folks might find this
situation a bit depressing, but fortunately Candy is an absurdly
optimistic person and she and her bird soon emerge to embark on a
wild and hairy tour that takes her back and forth across the
continent and eventually into space...  The action comes in bursts
of surprising intensity, and although this makes the narrative a bit
jumpy, you tend not to notice this while reading because you are
much too busy turning pages.  The style is rather curious and takes
some getting used to: it is a very telegraphic English, which is
rationalized as being the result of the impatience of someone with
an IQ of well over 200 trying not to be bored while writing as fast
as possible in shorthand (Pitman shorthand -- Palmer is a certified
shorthand court reporter, according to the biographical blurb).  The
book is funny and exciting by turns, and always engrossing.

There are some negative things about the book, too, unfortunately.
One problem is the difficulty that Palmer has in preventing Candy
from backsliding into cuteness; Candy has a good feel for when to
drop a self-deprecating remark, though, so this isn't usually very
annoying.  Like another recent first novel which is somewhat similar
in feel, Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES, the plot has a number of
gaping holes and preposterous assumptions that are only evident when
you finally read the last page, wipe your brow and exhale.  (Are the
Russians really so evil that they would attempt to kill every human
being on the planet, then leave behind a doomsday device that would
take care of any inquisitive survivors just in case the first try
overlooked someone?  And that's positively straightforward compared
to certain other events which I won't spoil...) Another minor
problem with the book is that once you realize just what kind of
book it is, it becomes fairly easy to predict the plot, although for
some reason this doesn't decrease the suspense any.

Don't expect depth from EMERGENCE, but I can pretty much guarantee
that you'll have fun reading it.  (Go back to your library and
re-read Sturgeon's MORE THAN HUMAN to get the marshmallow feeling
out of your mind...)

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Nov 84 05:49:45-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Varley's PERSISTENCE OF VISION

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PERSISTENCE OF VISION ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm another who rarely reads short sf because it's less enjoyable to
me than the long.  (Whether a short story's good or bad, I too often
feel cheated.  If bad, because I wasted my time on something I half
expected to be worthless.  If good, because it was over so soon.)

So there may be some significance that among all my hundreds of sf
books (and I keep less than 1 out of 5 that I read) there is \one/
single-author collection-- PERSISTENCE OF VISION.  And, that of the
2 I have in hardback despite severe space shortage which restricts
my sf to paperbacks, one is PERSISTENCE....  It, and Schmitz' DEMON
BREED I have "backup" hardback copies of against the inevitable day
when the paperbacks' pages have turned brown and started falling
out.

Only the title-story itself turns me off utterly.  The others range
from a couple fair to 2-3 so good that they hurt... like "Phantom of
Kansas" and "In the Halls of the Martian Kings".

While I fully agree with Jef Poskanzer that the original cover is
superb (tho the paperback's is too small and cluttered to be very
effective except insofar as it is evocative of the larger version on
the dust jacket of the hardcopy), to me it's contents rather than
containers which matter.  But I \do/ have that Dell 1979 paperback
edition he yearns for, and if he comes on down to NASFiC next year--
I'll make him a present of it!

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Nov 84 05:53:46-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Wilder's LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Defective books: LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jef Poskanzer's ire at shoddy publishing is well based, but whether
writing in protest does any good is, from my experience, dubious.
Maybe one \ought to/, on principle.  But only for the sake of the
principle, not from any anticipation of its making any difference.

A few years back the paperback edition of Cherry Wilder's LUCK OF
BRIN'S FIVE came out \minus the last 12 pages/!  This was FAR worse
than 2 from a short story, for all the threads of the plot were left
dangling, and there was no clue to the fact that the publisher had
goofed rather than that the then-all-but-unknown author couldn't
craft a story properly.  Both Varley and PERSISTENCE OF VISION are
known and secure in readers' regard.  But this was Wilder's first
U.S. mass-market book, and one can only wonder how many people who
DID take a chance and buy it never would shell out for another by
Wilder.

Having come across the hardback edition among the `young people's
books' at the library (one never knows what will turn up there!),
I'd been so impressed with Wilder's intriguing alien culture and the
reactions of the stranded human to it and the aliens' to him, that I
was so resentful of the harm done to the potential contributions
this writer might have made to sf that I felt unusually impelled to
DO something.  I didn't just write in protest but sent along my copy
and asked for a refund.

The response?  Zilch.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 84 09:17:11 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek

        DC comics has started to publish a Star Trek comic book.
They did an adaptation of the movie which was fairly good and now
they are into new stories of the Enterpriseless crew.
        They have a fairly interesting set of ideas though on what
happens to the crew.  The story goes something like this:

                       ****** SPOILER ******

        The crew leaves Vulcan in the Bird of Prey heading to
Starbase 13 to "turn themselves in."  Meanwhile Starbase 13 has come
under attack by a ship and the Excelsior commanded by Captain Styles
rushes to the rescue.  Along the way, the Excelsior picks up the
Bird of Prey and places Kirk and his crew under arrest.  They reach
the Starbase to find that it is under attack by (any guesses??)....
The Enterprise!!!!!!  It seems that the other dimension Kirk from
"Mirror, Mirror" has crossed over to our dimension in the hopes of
conquering the Federation.
        The other Kirk fights the Excelsior and winds up capturing
the ship (it seems he is at least as resourceful as our Kirk) and he
places our Kirk under arrest.  The other Spock takes off in the Bird
of Prey heading towards Vulcan to mind meld with our Spock to learn
the secret of Genesis which the scientists in the other dimension
have not yet discovered.
        As you might have guessed by now, our Kirk gets free and
beams over to the Enterprise where with the help of the intruder
defense system and his own crew from our universe, takes over that
ship.
        How's that for a way to not only regain the Enterprise but
also I suspect that the other Spock will somehow be responsible for
the full mental recovery of our Spock.  As either would say...
Fascinating.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 13:21:24 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: King's THE MIST / Radio drama

Regarding the reference in #192 to King's THE MIST, I thought I'd
let you know that a radio dramatization of that forms the first
three episodes of an NPR fantasy/SF series called "The Cabinet of
Dr. Fritz". {Yes, I, too, thought of Mondale...]

This series is produced in binaural sound, designed for headphone
listening.  You might want to check with your local NPR FM stations
to find if it is, will be, or has been carried in your area. NPR
stations seem to carry this sort of thing on an independent basis --
it's been on WSIE (Edwardsville, IL) for three weeks now, but that
doesn't mean much in relation to any other station.

It's not a bad radio drama; the sound effects are pretty good. I
cannot compare the story to the original, as I haven't found that
DARK FORCES anthology yet. I heard the first episode in the true
binaural mode, and it is worthwhile to listen through headphones.
(Unfortunately, the student engineers at WSIE mucked up the audio on
the next two broadcasts, putting one in mono and the other with one
or the other channel dropping out from time to time... Sigh...)

Anyway, it's worth a listen. Each episode is 30 minutes long.

Regards, Will

ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #195
Date:  7 Nov 84 1202-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #195
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 84 1202-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #195
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 195

Today's Topics:

          Administrivia - Returned Messages (PLEASE READ),
          Books - Foster (2 msgs) & Herbert 3 msgs) &
                  Story Request Answered (5 msgs),
          Films - Comments on Films,
          Television - V,
          Miscellaneous - Obituary of Barry Gray

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 84 09:12:42 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Returned messages

To all readers and contributers:

        What is happening is that sf-lovers-usenet@sri-unix is the
mailing address for our connection to the usenet.  For the past
several weeks sri-unix has been switching machines and the mailer is
therefore down.  Someone at that site knows of the situation and
will re-install the address when they have finished their conversion
effort.  Meantime, I will be getting the usenet messages relayed
through someone else and am furiously pushing the appropriate people
here at Rutgers to get our unix machine onto the usenet.
        If you receive a returned message when submitting to
sf-lovers, there is no need to resubmit it.  I have received one
copy of the message and I will put that message in a digest as soon
as possible.
        Please bear with us.......

Saul

------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: M. A. Foster's newest collection
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 22:27:15 MST

I just got a publicity flyer from DAW advertising M. A. Foster's new
book OWLTIME as "four short novels...a unique reading experience."
The page count for the entire book is "256pp."  That averages 64
pages per story.  Unless these figures are in base twenty (what the
heck is the word for "base twenty"-- my mind has created a black
hole for this information to hide in), these are at best novellas or
perhaps even novelettes.

They may still be good but they ain't novels.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: M.A. Foster's new collection
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 03:08:12 MST

> I just got a publicity flyer from DAW advertising M. A. Foster's
> new book OWLTIME as "four short novels...a unique reading
> experience."  The page count for the entire book is "256pp."  That
> averages 64 pages per story.  Unless these figures are in base
> twenty (what the heck is the word for "base twenty"-- my mind has
> created a black hole for this information to hide in), these are
> at best novellas or perhaps even novelettes.
>
>They may still be good but they ain't novels.
>
>                                       Evelyn C. Leeper

Well, they *did* say "*short* novels". If you look up "novella" in
the dictionary (the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY, anyway), you will
see it defined (2.) as "A short novel." In fact, the term "short
novel" is much more commonly used than "novella".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 84 02:20:22 PST (Sun)
Subject: Sandworms to flatworms?
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

   Why should the weight of a sandworm crush it?  Why should its
weight increase in direct (or cubic) proportion to its volume?
These are animals with moderately (perhaps very) sophisticated
anatomies, not objects all composed of the same material.  Parts of
them are likely to be very light; possibly they have bony or
chelatinous skeletal structures specially adapted for bearing great
weight, as have the shrew and the whale (the shrew, although
obviously very light by itself, can bear great weights without being
crushed, because of the structure of its spine).

   Also, the sandworms don't live ON land, except when the Fremen
force them to: they live under it, and enjoy from it a support which
must be at least similar to what whales get (and what the larger
dinosaurs are believed to have got) from water.  Perhaps the tiring
of a maker after it has been ridden for a time is at least partly an
adaptation to let it return to the depths of the sand.

   Obviously, I don't *KNOW* whether non-marine animals that size
could survive.  But I DO know that the animals of Earth alone
exhibit enormous complexity in the range of their adaptations for
survival, including some which are pretty unbelievable.  So it seems
reasonable to me to accept the sandworms without fuss.  They are
clearly extraordinary; but clearly impossible?  Certainly not.

                                 A. Milne

PS Herbert wanted to tell a story, and a political story at that, of
    a feudal society, degenerate in many aspects, into which the
    people of Dune wanted to burst with rebellion and slaughter.  He
    was not publishing a technical manual on the ecology (or the
    zoology) of a desert planet.  Perhaps, if people are so
    interested in them (or keep trying to find flaws in them) he
    should publish as an appendix some of the notes of Kynes and his
    father.  But they are not a story and do not belong in the
    story.

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 84 02:28:21 PST (Sun)
Subject: Terraforming Arrakis
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

   Isn't that just what the Fremen were working on in secret, under
the guidance of Kynes, and his father before him?  And secret it had
to be: suppose the Emperor, or the Harkonnens (before the Atreides
succeeded them) had discovered them trying to change fundamentally
the planet which was the greatest known spice source?  What would
have happened to the Fremen and their desert stations then?  The
Harkonnens would have launched a campaign to wipe them out, instead
of merely despising and persecuting them in a mean, small fashion.

                                A. Milne
                                UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 04 Nov 84 02:33:40 PST (Sun)
Subject: Re: Herbert, and his other good book
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-750a>

  I want to add my vote for "Dragon in the Sea", which it still was
when I first read it.  I'm sorry to hear about the title "21st
Century Sub"; it seems to me to miss the point.

  I also want to suggest "The Dosadi Experiment" as a powerful story
(I regret I have not read the one before it, "Whipping Star").
Though only moderate on characterisations, it has all of Herbert's
talent for complex intrigues and hidden motivations, all bound up in
alien cultures.  I find the details of the Gowachin legal system
fascinating, if very uncomfortable.

  To refer to what started this debate, in the case of the Dune
movie, I hardly think it matters how well (or poorly) Herbert has
succeeded with his other books.  His position as the creator of the
Dune world is what makes his opinion on the movie valuable.  If he
feels that it states adequately on the screen what he wanted to say
in the book, knowing better than anybody else can just what the book
is trying to say, then I for one feel encouraged about the movie.

  (Of course, if you hold the opinion that the creator of a work is
simply its starting point, and that it grows from there through the
interpretations of its audience, then the above is not necessarily
true.  I don't hold that opinion personally, so I defer further
discussion to people who do.)

  As for financial persuasions, Herbert is not one of the struggling
writers who must, for practical reasons, let money take precedence
over art.  He is widely published, with a number of well-known
books.  He has worked in a broad range of fields and gained a number
of qualifications.  And I know of at least one precedent, in the
case of Paddy Cheyevsky, for an author's refusing the fruits of a
disagreeable modification of his work (in fact, in Cheyevsky's case,
disowning the modification entirely).  So although the possibility
exists that he is simply contributing to the lining of his own
pocket, I think the probability is comfortably low.

                                        A. Milne
                                        UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84  9:53:23 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Re Story Query for TV Viewing

Re Jim Hester's query on a modified TV that lets you see ( and hear)
anywhere, and resulting impacts on society:

1.  My first guess is "I See You" by Damon Knight, a short story.  I
    think this was in one of the F&SF Special Issues, and/or one of
    the Terry Carr Year's Best SF anthologies.  I find it hard to
    believe the story is more than five years old, which makes me
    worry about people talking about the dark ages.

2.  An older, longer and more memorable work on this theme is "E For
    Effort", by T.L.Sherred.  The main argument against this being
    the story looked for is "reproduces the sounds of the scene
    being viewed." In Sherred's story, they couldn't do that.  They
    hired lots of lip readers.  Other disqualifications: mailing
    lots of plans out, viewing the present.  This is a more
    interesting story to read, I think.  It's in a collection of
    four of Sherred's novellettes, all quite good.

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 10:37 PST
From: Piersol.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #192

I remember the story, and even the name of the device, an Ozo. I saw
it in an anthology on time travel, but no more information occurs to
me.  Sorry...

There were some really unusual ideas in the story, such as why
people after the Ozo's invention still found "Bob & Carol & Ted &
Alice" wildly funny.  Apparently, these people were accustomed to
seeing anything and everything about anyone, so they found the
rather veiled and adolescent references to sex in the movie
hilarious.  I remember the ending differently, with the inventor of
the Ozo being dead by the time he was discovered.

The only religion which survives is a particularly severe form of
Zen.  The other religions all have inspiring, but hardly divine,
moments in which they were concieved.  Religion dies with a whimper.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Nov 1984  04:02 EST
From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Jim Hester <hester@UCI-750A.ARPA>
Subject: Here's the Plot - What's the Title?

The story you're looking for is...run to library (boy, I'm glad I
read SFl at home)... "I See You", by Damon Knight, anthologized in
DAW's "The 1977 Annual World's Best SF". Great story, but the bit
you thought you remembered about the inventor being assassinated is
non-existent.
                                        James

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  2 Nov 84 11:05:25 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Here's the Plot, What's the Title?

I didn't send this earlier 'cause I don't have all the info, but...

The story about the device that can view all of space/time is called
"I See You."  It's in Best Science Fiction Stories of the Year #6, I
think.  Unfortunately, I can't remember the author's name, but it's
an excellent story.

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  3 Nov 1984 08:02:28-PST
From: herbison%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (B.J.)
Subject: Re: What's the Title? - inventing the viewer

The story of the inventor who discovers a viewer that can get images
across space and time (and its effect on life) is *I See You* by
Damon Knight.  It appeared in F&SF's special Damon Knight issue
(November 1976), I have it in *The Best From Fantasy and Science
Fiction, 23rd series*.

The story is well written and required careful reading on my part.
Several times the characters did actions which confused me, but
became clear when I read on and looked back.
                                                B.J.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 12:54 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: John Redford's comments

    I agree with John Redford's comments in regards to my
discussions of noise in space.  I think that Kubrick's handling of
the exterior scenes was wonderful, and the airlock scene was
masterful.  2001 is a special case, though.  The scenes in vacuum
were fairly simple - no combat (at least not ship-to-ship), one
ship, a pod, and one or two humans.  As long as the point of view is
the person in the suit, it works.  I'd like to see him try that
technique on a starship combat of any type.

    As far as sandworms are concerned, they did not stretch my
willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point, but maybe
mine is a little more pliable than others.  (I know I said that we
should stop talking about Dune, but just this once, please!)

    I also agree with your comments about STAR WARS.  I enjoyed the
STAR WARS trilogy, but I didn't think it was great science fiction.
I would say it was pretty good space opera.  (Especially The Last
Hope.)  Maybe Lucas has made enough money to try something daring
next time.  Like a real science fiction movie with all the good
things included: accuracy, plotline, characterization, drama, humor,
etc. And no cutsey creatures that are purely for the 'oohh, isn't
that cute' effect. (You know who I mean.)

    Brett Slocum

    "I canna do it, Captain. I've gotta have thirty minutes!"

------------------------------

From: nova@abnjh.UUCP (Scott Allen)
Subject: V: Elizabeth's future (SPOILER!!)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 19:28:32 MST

[Say the word and he's a walking pair of aligator shoes!]

The thing about this series is that it's trying to be a cross
between the average action show (everything happens in 48 minutes of
broadcast time) and a night-time "soap" (continueing plots over
several weeks).  NBC has released a lot of information about V to TV
Guide and other tabloids.  One of the things everybody wants "the
inside story" on Elizabeth.

                 *** SPOILER  SPOILER   SPOILER ***

Elizabeth is mutating into a teenager.  The actress that will play
the older Lizard (Uh, I mean 'Lizzie) has appearred in TV Guide (one
of the future plots will be how she and her mother will compete for
the same man) and has had several TV interviews (Entertainment
Tonight I think).

Now if this is how NBC is going to run things, I think it will be
(one of) the series' downfalls.  One of the things that makes
Science-Fiction great is the surprises.  Although I can't expect V
to have the amount of security as a major motion picture, I wish NBC
would quit broadcasting what's going to happen.

Scott Allen
ATT-IS
Orlando, Florida
..!abnjh!nova

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  5 Nov 1984 09:59:10-PST
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Art Director,
From: DTN 264-5090 MK01-2N25)
Subject: BARRY GRAY, COMPOSER

I just learned yesterday of the death of Barry Gray.  Barry was
responsible for the music for most of Gerry Anderson's television
and film projects.  These included: FOUR FEATHER FALLS, TORCHY THE
BATTERY BOY, SUPERCAR, FIREBALL XL-5, STINGRAY, THUNDERBIRDS, (and
the two Thunderbirds films,) CAPTAIN SCARLET, JOE-90, SECRET
SERVICE, THE INVESTIGATOR, UFO, SPACE 1999 (year one,) the films
JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN and THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW, and
the commercial ALIEN ATTACK for Jif Dessert Toppings.  He was
involved in other projects as well, but was best known for his work
with Century 21 Studios.

His work enhanced the efforts of the other specialists and artists
involved in the projects.  Many of them, like Gray, got their start
at C21, and are recognized as among the best in their fields. (Derek
Meddings has gone on to be one of THE people in miniature film
effects.)

Barry Gray has spent the last few years working on "Library" music
for different studios in England.

Although his work will live on, he will be missed.

Randy Dearborn
Digital Media Services, Merrimack
603-884-5090
Merrimack, NH
HYSTER::DEARBORN
F.A.B.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #196
Date:  7 Nov 84 1257-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #196
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 84 1257-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #196
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 196

Today's Topics:

        Books - Borges & Brin & Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer &
                Varley (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Authors of No Importance &
                A Misidentification,
        Television - Star Trek (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: Schenck and Borges
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 07:08:25 MDT

Those of you who were fascinated by/enthralled by/mildly interested
in Hilbert Schenck's "The Geometry of Narrative" should read
Borges's "An Examination of the Work of Herbert Quain."  (It appears
in FICCIONES, and possibly other collections of Borges's work.)
Those of you who like it should read more Borges.  (And conversely,
those of you who like Borges should read Schenck's story, which
appeared in ANALOG last year--I forget which issue.)

                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

From: novikoff@tesla.UUCP (Eric A. Novikoff)
Subject: Discovered David Brin
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 17:18:20 MST

Has anybody read STARTIDE RISING, SUNDIVER, and THE PRACTICE EFFECT
by David Brin?  I found the books (especially STARTIDE RISING) to be
captivating and deep (sorry about the pun, Brin fans.)  Has / is he
writing anything new?  I anxiously await the reopening of the door
into the Brin universe.  Has any one else thought of "uplifting"
dolphins?

Eric Novikoff
tesla!novikoff@cornell.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 1984 12:23:24-EST
From: Bob.Walker@cmu-ee-faraday
Subject: Nat. Lamp's DOON - slight spoiler

On the other hand, if you *do* enjoy poking fun at Dune, then you
might like "National Lampoon's DOON", by Ellis Weiner (Pocket Books,
1984, $2.95, in the Humor section).

                         * slight spoiler *

This is the story of Pall Agamemnides, which begins with his mother,
the Lady Jazzica (of the Boni Maroni cooking school) taking him to
be tested by the Revved-Up Mother George Cynthis Mohairem.  Here is
he is tested with the abdul-jabbar, the high-handed, long-legged
enemy (also called the skyhook).

He passes, of course, and is soon on his way to Arruckus, Doon, the
dessert planet.  A sugar-coated planet entirely without entrees, it
is patrolled by the enigmatic, sweatsuit-wearing Freedmenmen (the
sweatsuits help them rid themselves of extra calories).

And, of course, it is the tale of his rise to power.  How he becomes
the Laserium al-Dilah', The Bright Light of the Italian Love Song,
and the Mahdl-T, the one who will drive us to Paradise and back.
How he becomes Mauve'Bib:

        Pall thought a moment, then spied Loni in the crowd.  The
    moonlight glowed cool silver on the purple napkin around her
    neck, and he recalled with an inward-warming-up-feeling how she
    had cleansed his lip of sudsfoam.  "What do you call these
    napkins?" he asked, pointing to those worn by all the tribe.
        Spilgard looked puzzled, indicated his own.  "Why, Pall who
    is Assol, it is the color mauve, and it is a bib.  We call this
    a mauve bib."  He looked at the others, shrugging.
        "That shall be my name, then," Pall said.  "That, plus my
    given name, lest I forget my father and his executors (sic).
    From this day I shall be Mauve'Bib Agamemnides!"
        He shot a glance around the gathered tribe in triumph, yet
    saw averted eyes, strained smiles hidding embarrasment, heard
    surpressed titter-laughs.
        A voice emerged from the rear of the group.  "Pretty stupid
    name..."

And finally, how he becomes the Kumkwat Haagendasz, The One Whose
Fruit-Like Soul is Tempered to a Soft Consistency, perhaps also
referring to a chef who can prepare many dishes so that they can all
become ready at the proper time.

And of course, this is the tale of the addictive drink called
"Beer", which permeates Arruckus.  Beer, also called Foam, Suds, or
Brew, is found on the surface in pools called beer bellies, causing
all the inhabitants to have the distinctive red-in-red eyes.  And
roaming the planet are the giant sand pretzels, which Pall must
learn to ride.

        - bob walker
          walker@cmu-ee-faraday.arpa

The Litany Against Fun, from "National Lampoon's DOON":

I must not have fun.  Fun is the time-killer.  Fun is for children,
customers, and the help.  I will forget fun.  I will take a pass on
it.  And while it is going, I will turn a blind eye toward it.  When
fun is gone there will be nothing.  Only I will remain - I, and my
will to win.  Damn, I'm good.

------------------------------

From: knight@rlgvax.UUCP (Steve Knight)
Subject: National Lampoon's DOON
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 19:51:00 MDT

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

I happened to be in the local high-volume commercial bookstore and
came across a book on their front stands entitled "National
Lampoon's DOON."  I didn't catch the author's name; sorry.  Since
I'm as much of a sucker as anyone else for a good pun-laced parody
of a popular work (I throughly enjoyed "Bored of the Rings," after
all), I gave it a quick thumbing through.  Seems we have a young
protagonist named Pall, who is being sent to Arruckus, the Dessert
planet, where the dominant form of life is a form of giant
pretzel... ho hum.

Now, I don't exactly know why, but my internal warning system lit
up, telling me, "Don't buy this turkey!"  Before I completely
dismiss it based on my one unreasonably rushed thumbing through,
however, I wanted to see whether anyone out there has read it and
could either confirm my good taste or else teach me never to make
such snap decisions ever again.  How about it?  Would anyone care to
post a review?

By the way, if you think the timing of the release of this book has
nothing to do with the fact that the movie is coming out in two
months, have I got a bridge for *you*!

        Steve Knight
        {seismo,allegra,some other sites}!rlgvax!knight

------------------------------

Date: Tue 6 Nov 84 00:19:36-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Emergence

Emergence is a terrible book.  Sort of a cross of Dean Ing's
Systemic Shock with Podykayne of Mars, except that it gets both the
kid and the technology wrong.  Give me a break; although it may
sell, the last thing this world needs is another h. sapiens
successor story.  (I was hoping they would discover some form of
kryptonite that attacked h. post-hominem superpeople, but no such
luck.)
                wz

------------------------------

Date: Mon Nov  5 19:47:50 1984
From: mclure@sri-unix
Subject: Varley

As a premier Varley fan who was turned on to him by this list some
number of years ago, I must say that I was very disappointed by his
post-Persistence work including the Titan series and Millenium. I
think that his publishers or someone pushed him into novel-length
fiction before he was ready.

To be sure, his Ophiuchi Hotline novel was interesting but read more
like an extended story such as The Time Machine, rather than a full
novel. And his Titan series and Millenium are very shakey by my
standards.  Barbie Murders was ok but not up to the level of
Persistence even though some of the stories were intermixed in the
same time period.

I'd be interested to find out what his next novel will be about. I
think he should return to the "Eight Worlds." He belongs there until
he matures.

Let me reiterate that I consider his Persistence collection and
Ellison's Deathbird Stories collection the absolute *best* short
fiction I have read anywhere, including all the short fiction I read
by the "masters." But because the former was a quick spurt of
creativity over just a few short years and the latter was a
compendium of the best short works by a prolific short fiction
author, I consider the former to be a greater creative achievement.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 84 10:57:56 EST (Tuesday)
From: Russell.Wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Varley back in print

Varley's THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE has also been reissued in paperback.
After all the positive comments about it and THE PERSISTENCE OF
VISION in this digest over the years I finally got copies of both
and enjoyed them very much. Anyone like to supply the text for the
missing two pages of IN THE BOWL?

Corky (russell.wbst@xerox.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 03:18:11 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: FREE LIVE FREE by Gene Wolfe

Imagine my amazement when I walked home in the dark in the wee hours
of my birthday recently and found a package from Mark Ziesing, sf
bookseller and specialty publisher, on the doorstep.  Of course it
wasn't a birthday present but the result of a check I sent him a
month ago for a new book he's published, Gene Wolfe's novel FREE
LIVE FREE ($45, 496 pp.).  The book is well-produced, profusely
illustrated (a drawing by Rich Schindler appears at the head of
every one of the 60 chapters, plus there are several full-page
drawings by Rick DeMarco, and the (peculiar, to say the least) cover
art is by Carl Lundgren), signed (by Wolfe and each of the artists),
numbered (mine is #218 out of 750), and genuinely funny...

The plot of FREE LIVE FREE is very difficult to summarize; not
because a summary would give the game away (which games?!), but
because the plot is so crazy that I couldn't possibly say anything
without being misleading...  and I might not realize I was being
misleading until the next time I read the book!  No worries about
spoilers from me this time.  About all I can say is that the book
appears (stress the 'appears') to take place in a very run-down part
of an unnamed large city, in our own time, and involves a literally
bewitching cast of characters from the street.  There are
science-fictional elements in the story; and there are also fantasy
elements, detective-novel elements, spy-novel elements, Dickensian
elements, satirical elements, occult elements and probably as many
other elements as I could name.  It's practically a periodic table.
(I should mention that Wolfe also reveals a ghastly weakness for
puns and malapropisms.)

I can say what this book isn't: it most definitely isn't THE BOOK OF
THE NEW SUN.  It also isn't 'The Rubber Bend', 'A Criminal
Proceeding' (both from PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING) or 'The Eyeflash
Miracles' (from THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND
OTHER STORIES), even though it shares themes and styles with all
three stories.  The ultimate product is unique.

I have some hypotheses about what the book IS (besides 'unique'),
but I won't spoil them except to note that the epigraph of the book
reads:
        'The country needs and, unless I mistake its temper, the
        country demands bold, persistent experimentation.'
                                -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt

And I can't resist quoting at least one short passage:

        '"Well, blow me down!  I just remembered, I got a date wit
        Olive.  What time is it?"

        'Stubb glanced at his wrist.  "Six forty-five."

        '"Wow!" Candy looked around at the darkened buildings.  "It
        seems more like midnight.  It really got late early
        tonight."

        'Nimo capering ahead of the rest, stopped and threw his arms
        wide.  "Lipstick!"

        '"Listen," Barnes told Stubb.  "I got to get slicked up.
        She's going to pick me up in front of the Consort at eight."

        '"Okay, you're not heavy.  I bet Candy could do it."

        'Nimo dropped to his knees before her.  "If I only had a
        lipstick, I could make stripes on these pajamas.  I could
        give myself a red nose, too."

        '"Jim, get him away from me!  I think he's going to sing
        that song from 'The Wizard of Oz.'"

        '"I like it," Little Ozzie announced.  "We're o-o-off to see
        the Wizard, the Wonnerful WizardoFoz!"

Because of the wonderful things he does,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 84 16:26:51 EST (Friday)
Subject: Re: Stuart's article about Heinlein.
From: Todd Chronis <Chronis.Henr@XEROX.ARPA>

FLAME ON!
Using his criterion, here's a few other historical figures of no
practical present import:

Plato
Freud
Rosseau
Proust
Morris
Hemingway

And here's a couple of present day figures of no importance at all:
Spider Robinson
Herbert
Christopher
Norton
King
Varley
Niven

These writer's have few imitators. Certainly ten years from now they
will have no imitators.

As a matter of fact, I would say that precious few modern day
writers have any importance NOW.  All the writer's in my first group
have had major impacts on how literature has evolved, and all other
writer's are unabashedly copying their style; to a large extent the
vast majority of writers are mimicing the work of a few.  (Heinlein
is one of these few) This confirms their importance today,
yesterday, and in some cases 2000 years ago.  To say that "he was
the architect of major structural changes to the genre of SF but now
he is a historical figure of no practical present importance." is to
utter a contradiction.  FLAME OFF!

~ Todd

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  2 Nov 1984 22:15:38-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Stephen King

> From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
> Check out recent issues of F&SF.  The one with the cover story
> "Ganglion" (with the hideous art) contains an awful piece by
> King--I forget the title, but the plot is
> Frozen-Sleep-Colonization-Vessel-With-Crew-
> Contingent-That-Runs-Into-Trouble.  (I believe Vogt did the
> premier story of this type, reprinted as part of "Quest for the
> Future.")  King's reworking (I just remembered the title--"What
> makes us human?") uses this and a straightforward Berserker-type
> artifact to set up the background for a ridiculous morality
> cartoon.

I hate to tell you this (actually, I love to tell you this, being a
King fan, myself), but the story you just described, "What Makes Us
Human" [no "?"], in the August 1984 of F&SF is by Stephen R.
Donaldson, *not* Stephen King.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Star Trek pilots
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 09:23:24 MST

>If you want to get picky you would have to say that Spock and Capt.
>Pike were the only two characters in both episodes. Although I have
>heard that the actor in the "wheelchair" was not the same one that
>played Capt. Pike in the first pilot.  John Eaton

Capt Pike, in "The Cage", was played by the late (note *late*)
Jeffrey Hunter. I don't know if he was replaced by Shatner because
he was killed or whether he was fired (so to speak) before his
death.

He died after breaking his neck in a fall down his cellar steps
quite a few years ago.  He is possibly most known for his portrayal
of Christ in the movie *King of Kings* shown in every city on at
least one station *every* Easter season.

Fred Avolio, DEC -- U{LTR,N}IX Support
301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA:  grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

From: herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services)
Subject: Re: Star Trek pilots
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 12:58:24 MST

According to Gene Rodenberry in The Making of Startrek (I'm pretty
sure it was there), Jeff Hunter was not signed to the second pilot,
"Where No Man Has Gone Before", because he was already signed to a
movie during the time they were planning to film.  So they had to
find a replacement and William Shatner happened to be available.

Herb...

I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
BITNET: herbie at watdcs,herbie at watdcsu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #197
Date:  7 Nov 84 1332-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #197
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 84 1332-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #197
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 197

Today's Topics:

        Books - Ellison (9 msgs) & Powers (3 msgs) & Wilder,
        Films - Cronenberg & Mars Needs Women (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP
Subject: Re: World Fantasycon Report (*long*)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 84 18:39:00 MDT

*sigh* At last year's World Fantasy Con in Chicago, Harlan Ellison
read most of a good vampire story. He'd almost finished it, and
promised it would be out in the next "Whispers," which was to be a
special Ellison issue, an issue which has as yet to materialize
(through not fault of Stuart David Schiff, I'm certain). Maybe
someday, after *The Last Dangerous Visions*, perhaps, I'll find out
how it ends...
                                        Wombat
                "I am not, nor have I ever been, Jan Howard Finder"
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: yteitz@aecom.UUCP (Yosef Teitz)
Subject: Harlan Ellison and Frank Herbert
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 18:26:30 MDT

As far as Herbert goes, I must agree that he is definitely not one
of the most awesome of writers.  On the other hand...

HARLAN ELLISON

I recommend anything that this man has wrote, and if you can get
your hands on a slightly obscure book by Keith Laumer called "Five
Fates", it includes stories by Laumer, Ellison, Herbert, Dickson and
Anderson.

Keith Laumer wrote a one page start of a story, and the all five of
them wrote separate short stories using it as the basis of their
story.  One can see their divergent styles just by analyzing each of
their first paragraphs.

One more thing: If anyone has a way of obtaining some of Ellison's
older books, send me a message.

        You can't always get what you want,
        But if you try sometimes you just might find
        You don't get it anyway.

                yteitz

------------------------------

From: hughes@super.DEC (Gary Hughes - CSSE  residing on SUPER for
From: today only)
Subject: Ellison vampire story
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 08:24:16 MST

At SYNCON 83 (Sydney, Australia), Harlan Ellison read his incomplete
vampire story also. The complete version was meant to be printed in
a fanzine produced in New Zealand (another con where the incomplete
story was read).

If anyone knows when/if it will be published, please post it to the
net. I would really like to know the outcome of the story.

Gary Hughes

UUCP: ...{decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mother!hughes
                                             ...!dec-godzla!hughes
ARPA:      hughes%mother.DEC @decwrl.ARPA
           hughes%godzla.DEC @decwrl.ARPA
reality?:  DEC, ZKO1-2/C07, 110 Spit Brook Rd, Nashua NH 03062

------------------------------

From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui)
Subject: Re: World Fantasycon Report (*long*)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 11:21:11 MST

>  Maybe someday, after *The Last Dangerous Visions*,

There was an article in Locus a few months back which said that
Harlan was going to ship TLDV to the publisher the first week of
August. He seems to have finally broken a 10 year writers block that
seems to have actually been caused by some physical problems he has
had. Considering that TLDV was due out in 1976 or so, I'm glad I
didn't hold my breath for it, but I AM looking forward to seeing it
when it does arrive.

chuq
From the Department of Bistromatics:              Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

  I'd know those eyes from a million years away....

------------------------------

From: mikevp@proper.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 14:47:05 MST

RE: Harlan Ellision?

I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved
morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you.  Personally, I would
rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of
humanness somewhere in it.

------------------------------

From: lasko@regina.DEC
Subject: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 07:38:43 MST

I disagree completely with proper!mikevp.

<SET FLAME/SIMMER>

Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much as
some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly and soft
place.  If one can't feel sympathy and the pain behind the
characters in the "Paingod" collection, the frustration in the
"Gentleman Junkie..." collection, and the revenge, and hatred, and
indifference in other stories of his, then I daresay that you lack
the glimmer of "humanness" that you claim to seek.

I'm told that in person, Mr. Ellison is not the most congenial of
people in the world.  So be it.  I judge a person by his deeds and
works, not by his social graces.

His stories are not often optomistic, but they are practically
guaranteed to make you *think*, and maybe reconsider part of the
world around you.  And maybe it just might help you share a lonely,
depressed evening.

And maybe even survive one.

Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great
injustice.

tim lasko
{decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. al.}!decvax!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko
DEC, Maynard, Mass.

------------------------------

From: ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 09:46:16 MST

>from the terminal of Tim Lasko
> His stories are not often optomistic, but they are practically
> guaranteed to make you *think*, and maybe reconsider part of the
> world around you.  And maybe it just might help you share a
> lonely, depressed evening.  And maybe even survive one.

Ellison's stories are depressing.  They make you think.  They need
to be taken in small doses.  I would not 'share' such an evening
with Ellison unless I had something a bit more cheerful to relieve
the depression he added to it.  It is much more enlightening and fun
to read his commentary on just about anything.  His acerbic wit
makes his prose on any subject enjoyable to read even if it pisses
you off.  It makes you think as well. So I agree with Tim's last
statement.  > > Writing Harlan Ellison of(f) as "morbid" is doing
him a great injustice.

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

From: mikevp@proper.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 00:49:27 MST

lasko@regina.DEC writes:

>I disagree completely with proper!mikevp.
>
>Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much as
>some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly and
>soft place. ...
>
>Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great
>injustice.

Well, everyone to their own tastes.  I have read only two stories by
Ellison that I liked: "Repent, Harlequin...", and "Pennies off a
Dead Man's Eyes".  I thought "Pennies..." was outstanding.  However,
everything else I have read of his, is ugly, depressing, and, yes,
morbid.  "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" is fairly typical.

The human condition isn't a 100% evil, nasty, sadistic horror,
either.

------------------------------

From: lasko@regina.DEC
Subject: Re: RE: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 00:08:38 MST

"nasty, evil, sadistic horror?"

Nonsense.  Ellison's stories admittedly deal with the darker effects
of our actions ("Croatoan"), our inner demons ("In Fear of K"), our
inner apathies and fears ("The Whimper of Whipped Dogs", but he also
talks about how we have brought things upon ourselves ("Repent
Harlequin..." and "I Have No Mouth..." are cautionary tales).  But
he can also speak of triumph ("Wanted in Surgery", "Life Hutch"),
and sometimes he can even be funny.

But since even Yahweh would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah, had Lot
been able to find one worthy person, even Ellison should not be
consigned to morbidity and sadism.  Here are five of his stories
that I guarantee not to be depressing:

    "Mom" - Strange Wine
    "From A to Z, In the Chocolate Alphabet"  -  Strange Wine
    "How's the Night Life on Cassida?"  -  Shatterday
    "Working With the Little People"  -  Strange Wine
    "Deeper than the Darkness"  -  Paingod and other Delusions

I also highly recommend The Glass Teat/The Other Glass Teat for
biting, hilarious, and thought-provoking commentary about 1968
through 1971.  And, if you can't take full doses of Ellison, try his
Partners in Wonder collection of collaborations.

tim lasko
{decvax,ihnp4,allegra,et.al.}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko

------------------------------

Date: Tue 6 Nov 84 00:26:00-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Tim Powers

Contrary to popular belief (or at least Donn Seeley's), Anubis Gates
was not Power's first novel.  From the ill-fated Laser series, I
found two more (MITSFS has 'em).  Look for "Epitaph in Rust" and
"The Skys Discrowned" -- the latter's cover painting is reprinted in
the Freas artbook with the Fredric Brown Martian.  He then published
the Drawing of the Dark.

ratings:
AG (as a standard) 10.0
DotD                9.0  --(magic is precursor of AG's magic)
tSD                 6.0
EiR                 6.0

                Yet another good reason to join MITSFS,
                wz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 08:02 EST
From: "Andrew D. Sigel" <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Tim Powers' first novel

The novel in question was not THE ANUBIS GATE (a very good second
novel, to my mind), but THE DRAWING OF THE DARK, published a number
of years ago (four?  five?) by Del Rey.  Or, rather, TDOTD was
Powers' first novel.

I understand that a third novel is due out in the next month or
two....
                                        Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Nov 1984  13:42 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #194

>From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
>annoying.  Like another recent first novel which is somewhat
>similar in feel, Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES, the plot has a
>number of gaping holes and preposterous assumptions that are only
>evident when

Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES is NOT his first novel!!!!  His book
"The Drawing of the Dark" was published about 5 (or more) years ago.
It is a truly ingenious Arthurian fantasy set in 14th century
Vienna.  Although not "great literature", it is sufficiently
inventive, well written, and amusing that it should be on everyone's
must read list.  (it doesn't quite make the "must buy" list,
though...)

Dean F. Sutherland
Tartan Labs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 08:11 EST
From: "Andrew D. Sigel" <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: THE LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE printer error

It's interesting that this topic should come up, but I remember when
the first Pocket printing with the 12 missing pages was issued.  I
hadn't read Wilder at the time, but I had a friend who did, and who
mentioned, a very short while after the book came out, that the last
twelve pages of the hardcover were missing.  I was working in a
bookstore at the time, looked at one of our copies, and it seemed to
end awfully abruptly, so I 'borrowed' some of the store letterhead
and dropped a note to Pocket.

The response (I don't recall from whom) came rather swiftly; my
letter apparently beat that of Wilder's agent by a few days, and
Pocket said that I should strip the covers from our copies and send
them back; the book would be reissued 'soon'.  (As I recall, it took
almost a year for Pocket to reissue the book.)  However, I don't
recall seeing ANY publicity about the strip-and-return policy; if I
hadn't written, the books would have stayed on the shelf.  My friend
had a running battle with Kroch's and Brentano's in Chicago -- about
once a week, she'd go in and make them pull the book from the shelf,
only to come in the next week to find it was back out.

For those who have never read Wilder, she has six novels published
thus far -- one completed trilogy, one original paperback, and the
first two books of a second trilogy -- A PRINCESS OF THE CHAMELN,
and YORATH THE WOLF.  I enjoyed all of the books in the trilogies,
though I have yet to read the sf paperback.

                                        Andrew Sigel

PS: It'll be interesting to see how Berkley deals with its two page
     omission in THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION.  Any word yet?

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: Cronenberg's STEREO & CRIMES OF THE FUTURE
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 13:34:11 MDT

>   Based on these films Cronenberg has become, I am told, the
> second highest Canadian filmmaker.

What does he do, smoke the cuttings?

------------------------------

From: donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley)
Subject: MARS NEEDS WOMEN
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 84 18:33:56 MDT

        From Jeff Lewis (lewie@pur-ee.UUCP):

        Is there some significance to the phrase "Mars Needs Women"
        or is its correlation to a Tonio K. song (and my signature!)
        just another example of synchronicity???

        I think it's a plot...

I've never heard of 'Tonio K.' or a song named 'Mars Needs Women',
but there is a classic bad sf film named MARS NEEDS WOMEN that gets
shown every now and then on late night TV.  I turn into a pathetic
heap of giggles whenever I see it...  The, um, plot of the movie is
very straightforwardly based on the title.  The only lines I still
remember from the flick (no doubt incorrectly) are:

        (The Martians pile into a shiny American car.  The camera
        follows MARTIAN #1, who is wearing a suit with a thin tie
        and narrow lapels, just like all the other Martians, as he
        flops into his seat.  [I don't recall that any explanation
        was given for the origin of their snappy duds.]  MARTIAN #2
        is about to follow MARTIAN #1 into the car.  MARTIAN #1
        palpates his tie and gives MARTIAN #2 a quizzical glance.)

MARTIAN #1:     What a primitive culture!
MARTIAN #2: (Fingers his own tie.)  Why, yes!  These went out of
                style at least 50 years ago on Mars!

Joe Bob says check it out,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: cuccia@ucbvax.ARPA (Nick Cuccia)
Subject: Re: MARS NEEDS WOMEN
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 19:29:25 MST

For MARS NEEDS WOMEN, one can also refer to the Bloom County strip
of October 19 (or October 12).  Fun Stuff.

--Nick Cuccia
--ucbvax!cuccia

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #198
Date:  9 Nov 84 1453-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 84 1453-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 198

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Kim Stanley Robinson &
                           The Flying Sorcerors (10 msgs),
                   Miscellaneous - Combat in a Vacuum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: ICEHENGE
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 12:18:18 MST

                      ICEHENGE by Kim Stanley Robinson
                             Ace, 1984, $2.95.
                     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This novel is similar to PALIMPSESTS, another novel published
by Ace.  Both speak of the past (history) as being unknowable.  That
is, we base our knowledge of history on artifacts.  But artifacts
can be misinterpreted, faked, lost, or whatever.  In addition, no
one sees the entirety of a historical event--just their corner of
it.  As Connie Willis pointed out at L.A.con II, there was no single
event called 'Dunkirk,' but a collection of impressions.  The
'Dunkirk' of someone on the coast of France was different from the
'Dunkirk' of someone in a boat on the Channel being shelled, and
neither is the same as the 'Dunkirk' of a general in London.

     ICEHENGE is Robinson's attempt to show both these ideas, and
some others besides.  It is told in three parts: "Emma Weil: 2248
A.D.," "Hjalmar Nederland: 2547 A.D.," and "Edmond Doya: 2610 A.D."
Weil is caught up in the original Martian mutiny, Nederland is
excavating a Martian city destroyed during that mutiny, and Doya is
trying to explain Icehenge, a structure of ice slabs resembling
Stonehenge but built on Pluto and found while Nederland was
excavating on Mars.  Much of the latter two sections is concerned
with theories and how they rise and fall as new evidence is
discovered.  (An earlier version of the first section appeared as
"To Leave a Mark" in the November 1982 issue of F&SF and was
nominated for a Hugo; part also appeared as "On the North Pole of
Pluto" in ORBIT 21.)

     Robinson's main characters are interesting, though his
auxiliary characters seem a bit sketchy.  The plot is
straightforward, interesting, and moves right along.  There are a
lot of good ideas (not just the historical ones mentioned).  The
only quibble I have is that three points of view of history is the
wrong number.  None of the sections (except perhaps the first)
really stands on its own, yet the three together still seem
incomplete.  Once Robinson has said that there are many
interpretations of history, he should show us more than three.  One
person has complained that this book wraps everything up too
neatly--that the reader *knows* what happened when it's done.  I'd
like to see Robinson do a sequel proving how wrong the reader was!
(This has great possibilities as an open-ended series, each
disproving the conclusions of the preceding volume!)  I claimed that
Robinson's first novel was Hugo material; while this isn't quite
that, it's right up there.  Robinson is a new author I'd keep an eye
on.

     Appropos of this topic of historical/archeological uncertainty,
I would recommend James Michener's THE SOURCE.  The framework of
this novel is an archaeological dig in Israel and the various
sections have to do with the true history of the items that are
found.  (I say "true" history because the sections are told from
third-person omniscient point of view, rather than third-person
non-omniscient as Robinson's are.) For example, the archaeologists
find a marble hand at the level of Grecian influence and postulate
that it was broken from some statue which has not survived.  In
fact, there was never any more statue than the hand itself, carved
by the artist to *suggest* the rest of the figure.  And there are
artifacts described by the third-person omniscient narrator which
are never found, that would explain a lot more of what *really*
happened.  (And for those who haven't read Carter Scholz's and Glenn
Harcourt's PALIMPSESTS, it puts forward the idea that artifacts are
altered to change history, much as the names of those fallen from
favor in ancient Egypt were chiseled out of the obelisks previously
erected in their honor.)
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

From: jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL)
Subject: Summarizing the TFS responses
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 09:02:40 MDT

[Pass the Quaff...I want to make defiled water.]

Thanks for all the responses concerning the gods and such in THE
FLYING SORCERORS by Gerrold and Niven.  I got lots of mail,
including some from:

ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!alcmist (Fred Wamsley)
ihnp4!decvax!genrad!teddy!mjn (Mark J. Norton)
ihnp4!decvax!ittvax!bunker!bunkerb!mary (Mary Shurtleff)
ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!rohn (Laurinda Rohn)
ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry (berry?)
ihnp4!inuxc!inuxa!rmrin (?)1

Just about everyone proved to be smarter than me by suggesting
"Musk-watz" was Sam Moskowitz, the author/editor/fan/critic/
historian.

My lack of familiarity with SF magazines showed itself when lots of
people suggested "Furman", the god of fasf, was spotlighting Ed
Ferman, a former editor of FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION (which can be
abbreviated FASF).

Po, the god of Decay, is most probably Poe, as in Edgar Allen, and
not Pohl as I had originally suggested.  Instead, Pohl may be
identified by Fol, the god of Distortion, but I'm still not sure
why.

Other suggestions that I have less confidence in include "Yake" as
being Asimov (based on "Ike".  I can assure you this is not correct.
The Good Doctor is mentioned in the book, but giving the context
would be a terrible spoiler), or as John Jakes.

One writer suggests "Eccar" is Forrest J. Ackerman.  Another offers
Edgar Rice Burroughs, with Tarzan = "The Man".

"Kronk" may well refer to Walter Cronkite, as most people suggested,
but I'm sure a more appropriate diety for The Future could be found
among all the unused SF authors.  One person offered Groff Conklin.
(What *does* the K in Ursula K. LeGuin stand for?)

"Poup" *might* be Pournelle, as someone offered, but I don't think
he'd published anything at the time TFS was published (1971).
Another suggestion was that this god of Fertility should be
pronounced "pop" as in "population."  Perhaps, but this theory
spoils the SF trend of the pantheon.

One person states that at the time they were writing the book,
Gerrold and Niven were active in LA fandom, and immortalized some of
their fellow fans by using variants of their names to christen the
characters in the book.  Hence, names like Shoogar and Lant have no
intrinsic puns in them.  (A major exception exists in the case of
Lant's offspring...)

There's lots of subtle word play in the book, such as in the names
of the twin suns, some geological features, currency, and so forth.
If you've not read THE FLYING SORCERORS, I highly recommend it as an
excellent and humorous "analysis" of the dramatic effect technology
can have on one's life.

Rob Mitchell  {allegra,ihnp4}!hogpd!jrrt

Don't get me wrong.  I like those people and in many ways admire
them.  They're the salt of the earth.  It's simply that I want other
condiments as well.
        - Clifford Simak

------------------------------

From: hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: re: flying sorcerers
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 10:41:07 MDT

The pun on Asimov's name was specifically revealed at the end of the
book.  In fact, Asimov was the main character's real name.  The name
Purple came about because his translating machine had misinterpreted
Asimov as "As a mauve" which came out "As a color, shade of purple
gray" in the local language.

-- J. Hollombe
   The Polymath

------------------------------

From: smw@sjuvax.UUCP (Stewart Wiener)
Subject: Re: Questions on TFS
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 16:51:26 MST

You might also notice that the word "yngvi" is used throughout *The
Flying Sorcerors* to mean "louse".  The origin of this is L. Sprague
de Camp and Fletcher Pratt's stories of Harold Shea (five of them,
available in paperback as "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of
Serpents") -- in one of which a mad prisoner in a dungeon shouts,
every hour on the hour, "Yngvi is a louse!!"

        Stewart Wiener / St. Joseph's University / allegra!sjuvax!smw

------------------------------

From: scw@cepu.UUCP
Subject: Re: Flying Sorcerers
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 16:25:02 MST

rcmcc@whuxi.UUCP (MC_CONNELL) writes:

>If I remember correctly, the natives kept referring to the lead
>character as "Purple."
>  "Purple" <- As-i-mauve <- Asimov
>is my interpretation.

Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine renders
his name in the language of the natives of the planet as:

"as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun.

The story is told from the point of view of one of the natives.

Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology)
uucp:   { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcrdcf}!cepu!scw
ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 3' 9.1" W 118 27' 4.3"

------------------------------

From: dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight)
Subject: re:TFS summary--Fol
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 10:22:22 MST

> From: jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL)
>
> Po, the god of Decay, is most probably Poe, as in Edgar Allen, and
> not Pohl as I had originally suggested.  Instead, Pohl may be
> identified by Fol, the god of Distortion, but I'm still not sure
> why.

        How do you get Fol (god of distortion) out of Phol?  Here
goes.  You distort Pohl's middle letters and you get Phol which can
be shortened to Fol (in a similar manner that fish can be lengthened
into phish.)

                               Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP:{decvax,icalqa,ihnp4,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs}!pur-ee!pur-phy!dub
     {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!dub

------------------------------

From: jeff1@garfield.UUCP (Jeff Sparkes)
Subject: Re: Re: Flying Sorcerers
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 11:15:55 MST

> rcmcc@whuxi.UUCP (MC_CONNELL) writes:
> >If I remember correctly, the natives kept referring to the lead
> >character as "Purple."
> >  "Purple" <- As-i-mauve <- Asimov
> >is my interpretation.
>
> Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine
> renders his name in the language of the natives of the planet as:
> "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun.

        And of course, Asimov loves a good ( or bad ) pun!!!

                                        Jeff Sparkes
                                        jeff1@garfield
Gee... I don't have a cute quote.....

------------------------------

From: dave@garfield.UUCP (David Janes)
Subject: Re: Flying Sorcerers
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 16:09:52 MST

| Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine
| renders his name in the lanuguage of the natives of the planet as:
| "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun.
| -- Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of
| Neurology)

It is also interesting to look at the description that is first
given of "Purple" in the book. Rather descriptive of the Good Doctor
I would say.

dave (the Mercenary Programmer)
David Janes     "Come in, come out of the rain"
Internet:       dave@garfield.UUCP
UUCP:           {allegra,ihnp4,utcsrgv}!garfield!dave

------------------------------

From: davidl@orca.UUCP (David Levine)
Subject: re:TFS summary--Fol (more expanations of gods in Flying
Subject: Sorcerors)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 14:42:14 MST

My best guess is that Fol, the god of Distortion, is Phil Foglio
(pronounced "folio").  Foglio, winner of three (?) Fan Artist hugos,
is a cartoonist and caricaturist, ergo a god of distortion.

Eccar the Man is definitely Forrie Ackerman, "a mortal (fan) raised
up to the status of a god."  I am unsure of the significance of the
triangle as his symbol.

Others not mentioned in the base article:

N'veen, god of tides - Larry Niven ("There is a Tide", "Neutron
    Star")
Elcin, "midget god of thunder and loud noises" - Harlan Ellison
Rot'n'bair, the god of sheep - Gene Roddenberry (his symbol is the
    horned box (TV) and his avatar is a malformed changeling
    (Spock) - my guess is that the sheep are Trekkies)
Nils'n, the slime god, enemy of Rot'n'bair - Neilsen (ratings)
Filfo-mar, god of rivers - Phillip Jose Farmer ("Riverworld")
Caff, god of dragons - Anne McCaffrey ("Dragon{flight,quest,song,
    etc.}")

(There may be more - it's been a few years since I read it.)

In addition, all the female natives have the first names of female
SF authors.  The balloon "Cathawk" and the statement "The Cathawk
has landed" seem to imply some kinship with the Eagle of Apollo 11.
Oells and Virn, the two suns, are H.G. (not Orson) Welles and Jules
Verne.

As far as anyone I know has ever determined, there is no fannish
meaning to the names Shoogar and Lant, or several other male
natives.  There also seems to be no god based on David Gerrold.

David D. Levine
(...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl)          [UUCP]
(tekecs!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

"APA:DAVID isn't dead, it's just very very very late..." - D.S.
Cargo

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov75.DEC
Subject: re: FLYING SORCERERS references
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 22:45:29 MST

> From: orca!davidl     (David D. Levine)

> My best guess is that Fol, the god of Distortion, is Phil Foglio
> (pronounced "folio").  Foglio, winner of three (?) Fan Artist
> hugos, is a cartoonist and caricaturist, ergo a god of distortion.

At the time THE FLYING SORCERERS was published (let alone written)
--- 1971 --- Phil was a minor (in the sense of "not very well
known") artist, if he was even doing anything at that time. The
chances that he would be so honored in TFS is *extremely* unlikely.

> The balloon "Cathawk" and the statement "The Cathawk has landed"
> seem to imply some kinship with the Eagle of Apollo 11.

(How soon they forget) Obviously, the "has landed" bit is a
reference to Apollo 11, but the Cathawk business is a reference to
Kitty Hawk. Remember the characters of Wilville and Orbur?

> As far as anyone I know has ever determined, there is no fannish
> meaning to the names Shoogar and Lant,...

If I remember correctly, Larry Niven's wife had mentioned in a
fanzine once that Shoogar is definitely *not* a reference to anyone
in particular.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: Yngvi
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 07:48:08 MST

It is possible that de Camp and Pratt's Shea stories are the origin
of "Yngvi is a louse!!"  However, my understanding was that it had a
more obscure origin, somewhere in fandom, and was then drawn up into
the Harold Shea universe.  I'm not positive on this, and I'm not a
fanzine collector so I can't really look for references in fandom
pre-dating the Shea stories.  Anybody have any good references to
cite on this?
                        -- David Dyer-Bennet
                        -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 1984  21:38 EST
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Cc: asp%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Death in Silence

Combat in vacuum?  The problem isn't that silent rayguns are dull,
or that an audience won't sit through it, but that you can't play
knight-in-shining-armor when the universe around you will kill you
if gets a chance.  Melodrama, in a place where a rip in your
spacesuit costs you everything?  Lucas wouldn't have stood a chance.

But if somebody could pull it off ... think of the surrealism, the
sense of constant danger.  Space would never look the same again.

--Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #199
Date:  9 Nov 84 1515-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 84 1515-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 199

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brin & Campbell & Ellison (3 msgs) &
                    Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer (2 msgs) &
                    Powers & Some Book Reviews,
            Films - Buckaroo Banzai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Nov  7 19:53:34 1984
From: cracraft@sri-tsca
Subject: Brin's Startide Rising

Someone told me that this has similarities to Varley. True?

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 03:18:31 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Ramsey Campbell's INCARNATE

Ramsey Campbell is a British horror writer, and INCARNATE (Tor 1983;
499pp. -- I have the MacMillan hardcover, which is 368pp.) is a
decidedly nasty horror novel.  But unlike many (most?) other books
in the genre, INCARNATE does not depend on gore to make your palms
become very wet; in fact there is only one actual murder in the
book, and it takes place offstage.  The plot, characters and setting
are exceedingly realistic, with very little of the cardboard which
one often finds strewn among the pages of horror novels.  This
attention to detail is perhaps somewhat misleading, because the
focus of the novel is on dreaming: over the course of the novel the
reader's grasp on reality (and sometimes on the narrative) can
become rather slim.  The story starts with an experiment in
predictive dreaming that ends in panic and hysteria.  Eleven years
later the subjects of the experiments discover that their dreams are
starting to invade their waking lives, and evidence begins to
accumulate that other people are perceiving their nightmares, and
that their actions while asleep are shaping events in the light of
day.  Will reality survive?  Campbell keeps you guessing right up to
the last few pages...

The only other contemporary horror author who seems to me to have an
equivalent sensibility for characters and setting is Stephen King,
but Campbell is British, and this makes for a distinctly different
tone.  I could only think of a couple minor complaints about the
style.  The story is a bit deliberate in getting its job done;
unlike King's works, INCARNATE never lets up for comic relief, never
once forgets that every scene is carefully crafted to advance the
plot.  At the same time, although the novel feels nicely balanced
and well structured, it misses the wonderful compactness of
narrative which Campbell brings to his short story writing...  But
all in all it's quite a fun read, and I would strongly recommend it
to people who are tired of the chainsaw school of horror writing:

        '"... You do remember how it was, don't you?  You must
        remember. ... How nobody will be sure what's behind a door
        until they open it, and how you'll never know where any
        street leads, and the worst thing you can do will be to ask
        someone the way..."'

Not recommended for paranoid schizophrenics,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thu Nov  8 20:06:02 1984
From: cracraft@sri-tsca
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #197

Ahhhh, SF-LOVERS has touched a nerve again.

One day a few years ago, I decided it was time to pick up a book by
Ellison.  I had read nothing by him.  I happened to pick up
DEATHBIRD STORIES.  I spent the next 6 or 7 hours *TOTALLY* absorbed
in this man's universe of contradiction, horror, blasphemy, and
black humor.  I came away from the experience emotionally exhausted
and totally elated.  There is good reason for his warning in the
early pages not to read too much at one sitting.

Harlan Ellison is a great writer.  I don't mean good.  I mean
*GREAT*.  I can't tell you how much I have read over the years and
how many authors.  Ellison has touched me deeply.  He has an
unrelenting power in linguistic style I have found in no other
author except Vladimir Nabokov.

Unlike in real-life where it is considered generally unpleasant to
constantly touch other people's hot-points, I think this is (or
should be) the major goal of fiction, film, and the creative arts in
general.  Stories and characters should be created that somehow
impinge on our idea of what humanity or personalities should be
like.  Ellison does this to an extremely intense degree.  I don't
find his stories particularly depressing Sure, they contain an
enormous amount of black humor but that makes it less depressing.
Many people cannot recognize black humor for what it is and think it
is merely a bleak world-view.

Take this as an advocacy of decadence.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Thu Nov  8 20:18:31 1984
From: cracraft@sri-tsca
Subject: Ellison's writer's block

It was caused by an unusually long emotional depression lasting 10
years.  I read about this in a recent LOCUS.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 09:49 EST
From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Harlan "you're a nobody!" Ellison, SF-LOVERS Digest   V9

Um, I like Ellison, but having read "A Boy and His Dog," I wonder if
it might be considered anti-social, or at least chauvinistic.  Are
there any Ellison anthologies available?  I haven't seen one since I
acquired this morbid interest.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 7 Nov 84 13:29:02 EST
Subject: Sandworms and Silicon

It is unlikely in the extreme that a silicon ecology would evolve on
a planet which is as hospitable to humanity as is Dune.  The
sandworms in particular are not silicon based because 1) They
produce a spice which is edible by human beings, and 2) the
sandtrout (which are immature sandworms) merge with Leto in God
Emperor of Dune.  Leto, in effect, becomes a sandworm.  No chemistry
I know of would allow a creature to be part silicon-based and part
carbon-based.  But, yeah, it's science fiction, right?  Who cares
about keeping dumb things like facts straight?

--Jeff Duntemann
The German Silver Rat

------------------------------

Date: Wed 7 Nov 84 22:04:04-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Herbert's other good book

DOSADI EXPERIMENT is pretty good, although I find it less fun on a
reread than DUNE.  However, don't be sad that you haven't read
WHIPPING STAR; it is a real piece of trash, down there with some of
his worst.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 84 10:36:15 PST (Thu)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: Review: "Emergence" by D. Palmer

pico review: yum!

micro review:
        Believe the cover captions.  Most like Varley, best of
        Robinson.

Mini review:
        Posterity approves.  Good, fun book.  Consumed in one
        sitting; external events (any?) unnoticed.

        Subject: girl genius and idiot twin avian survive bionuclear
        "event" in deep hole.  Emerge.  Discover why (both).
        Interesting further adventures (refuse to spoil).

        Authors first!! More, please?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1984 05:19:33 PST
Subject: In search of the AAA
From: Steve Rabin <STEVER@CIT-20.ARPA>

David R. Palmer's "Emergence" is a book with much more going for it
than the mispelling of "Caltech".  -Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 21:11:59 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re:  Tim Powers

Mea culpa.  I have indeed heard of THE DRAWING OF THE DARK but I
managed to completely forget about it when writing the review that
was mentioned.  It helps that I've never seen a copy of it and of
course my edition of THE ANUBIS GATES is imprisoned with the rest of
my books in a storage locker in San Diego since U of Utah doesn't
pay moving fees.  (I'm planning a rescue operation next week.) Sorry
about the screw-up, Powers fans.  Is DARK worth tracking down?

Surprised that anyone actually reads my reviews,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: Ace SF Specials--a Review
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 12:17:34 MST

                        Ace Science Fiction Specials
                   Five book reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Terry Carr and Ace Books have started yet another series of
"Ace Science Fiction Specials."  The first series gave us such books
as LeGuin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS and Panshin's RITE OF PASSAGE.
Then Ace terminated the series, only to revive it later with such
"classics" as Chapman's RED TIDE.  Now it's back, and the five books
scheduled for the first year have been issued.  Here then is my
summary of this beginning.

                   THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson

     This was the first Ace Special, and the best so far.  A
post-holocaust story, it describes the life of one fairly average
teenager (though the term "teenager" has connotations which do not
apply in a post-holocaust, low-tech society) and his passage into
adulthood.  I said at the time that this book could be Hugo material
this year, and I still think that's true.  It made me expect a lot
for the Ace series.

                        GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard

     This was somewhat of a let-down after THE WILD SHORE.  I was
really looking forward to this one, both because of THE WILD SHORE
and because it was described as doing for zombies what Martin's
FEVRE DREAM did for vampires.  However the result was neither fish
nor fowl and never captured my full interest; I found the
point-of-view changes were disconcerting, and the "scientific
explanation" not very convincing.  On the other hand, many people
liked it.

                       NEUROMANCER by William Gibson

     Again, not my style of book, though the characters were more
memorable than those of GREEN EYES, and the action more interesting.
A high-tech story, it goes well with such other stories as Vinge's
TRUE NAMES and Gibson's own "Burning Chrome."  Though the West
Indian dialect of one of the characters was somewhat difficult to
follow, the story as a whole moved well.  A step up for the Ace
series.

              PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt

     A palimpsest is a parchment that has been scraped clean and
re-written.  The idea behind PALIMPSESTS is that history is not
straightforward but consists of palimpsests: artifacts that have
many different layers of concealed or destroyed truth on them.  The
main character, Camus (yes, he's related), is an archaeologist who
finds an impossibly dense cube in a dig in Germany.  The cube, when
tested, gives all sorts of conflicting evidence as to its real age.
There is a lot of spy thriller action as various interests chase
Camus and his girlfriend around to get the cube, and then some
"Andromeda Strain" action at a multi-leveled, underground research
establishment.  There is a lot of pseudo-science about "What is
time?" and "What is causality?" and how souls are being reincarnated
backwards in time.  I've read a fair amount of time-travel/time-
paradox novels and this was *still* incoherent.  The writing style
shows occasional flashes of insight, but the plot doesn't carry it,
and Camus spends too much of his time feeling sorry for himself for
the reader to really get involved with him.

                        THEM BONES by Howard Waldrop

     This is the least unusual of the Ace Specials so far.  It is a
fairly straightforward time travel/alternate history novel with a
heavy bent toward adventure.  There are three narratives, labeled
"Bessie," "Leake," and "The Box."  "Bessie" is Bessie Level, an
archaeologist working in 1929 Louisiana who discovers horses and
rifle cartridges in a burial mound dating between 700 A.D. and 1500
A.D.  "Leake" is Madison Yazoo Leake, a post-World War III draftee
sent back to pre-World War III to try to prevent its occurrence.
Somewhere along the line, however, he jumps the track and lands in
the right time (circa 1930), the right place (Louisiana), but the
wrong universe (no Roman Empire, no Christianity, and the Arabs have
explored the New World).  He discovers the Huastecas (Aztecs) are
still going strong, human sacrifices and all.  "The Box" is a box
full of reports written by the rest of Leake's party, who were
supposed to follow him into Louisiana.  Somehow they've gotten the
right place but they've been sidetracked to the wrong time (1100
A.D. give or take a few hundred years).

     The three threads are "alternated" (or whatever the word is
when talking about more than two).  Not surprisingly, the most
interesting is "Leake" and the rest seem to act as commentary on his
rather than independent themes.  The portrayal of Huasteca
civilization is accurate at first glance, but one glaring error
makes me question how accurate the rest is.  (Waldrop has Leake ride
his horse up the steps of a Huasteca pyramid and down again.
Huasteca pyramids have an inclination of between 45 and 60 degrees,
and steps only six to eight inches front-to-back.  I'd like to see a
horse ride up a pyramid like that!)  On the plus side, none of the
characters ever really knows what is going on.  Leake never finds
out more than a minimum of what his new world is like.  He learns
bits and pieces from Arab traders, but there is none of the usual
"discussion with the historian" that one often finds in novels of
this type.  His companions never quite figure out where they are or
what's happened to them.  They know something's gone wrong, they
suspect they're in the wrong time, but they're too busy trying to
avoid getting picked off by the natives to spend a lot of time
intellectualizing about their situation.  Bessie has perhaps the
best notion of what's going on, but even she is confused and misled
by what she sees.  As Connie Willis pointed out at L.A.con II, no
one ever sees history, they just see their part of it.  By using
three threads, Waldrop manages to convey this limitation, while
allowing the reader to have more idea of what's going on than any
one of the characters.  Not a great book, but an enjoyable one, and
worth the time.

                                  Summary

     Ace has a good idea here--promoting unusual science fiction
books.  They are to be commended for publishing the unusual.  Del
Rey and DAW publish more science fiction than Ace, but there's a
certain sameness to it all.  I mean, when DAW publishes the
twentieth novel by John Norman or C. J.  Cherryh (and I'm *not*
claiming they're at all similar to each other!), you know what to
expect.  With the Ace Specials, you don't.  You know you'll get
something with good points and bad points, maybe an innovative
style, maybe a new idea, maybe interesting characters.  You don't
get something stamped out a cookie cutter.  They're not all great,
but I'll keep buying them.  They're...special.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

From: mac@tesla.UUCP (Michael Mc Namara)
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai - (nf)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 21:16:17 MST

    Saw Buckaroo & his buddies in New Jersey the other week.  I have
an extra interest in the film, and others starring Peter Weller, as
he used to take care of me and my sisters while our parents were
away when we all lived in Germany in the early sixties.  I think the
film's a lot better than, although comparisons are difficult,
considering the film's basic plot differences, one of his earlier
films, "Just Tell Me What You Want", which he played across (and
with) Ali McGraw.  Peter has been on Broadway a lot, and does films
occasionally.

    It's good to see your old babysitter on the silver screen...

..!cornell!tesla!mac       Michael Mc Namara  @ Cornell University

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #200
Date: 13 Nov 84 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Nov 84 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 200

Today's Topics:

      Books - Benford & Ellison (3 msgs) & Herbert (2 msgs) &
              Palmer & Saberhagen & Bad Fiction & 
              Story Recommendation & Story Request,
      Films - Buckaroo Banzai,
      Miscellaneous - Silicon Chemistry & Mars Needs Women Song &
              Worldcon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 21:16:14-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #198

There is another artifact-based story coming from Greg Benford.  He
was at MIT last week and mentioned that his latest will (partially
set at MIT and BU) concern a strange artifact.  MIT gets into the
book because of its fine archaeological materials faculty, although
he got the lab in the wrong place.

                        wz
                        (Element 127 - wolframzeppelium)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 1984  16:08 EST
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*, *D*E*M*I*G*O*D*

I don't know.  Writers who inspire such fanatic, unquestioning
devotion seem somehow suspect to begin with.  As long as we're
throwing ad hominem attacks at each other, I, personally, doubt the
"humanness" of anyone who doubts the "humanness" of anyone else for
doubting the "humanness" of another's works.

(figure that one out :-)

No HE like THE HE, no? (tee hee)

--Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat 10 Nov 84 00:52:29-EST
From: Janice Eisen
Subject: Harlan Ellison and "A Boy and his Dog"
Reply-to: mdc.janice@mit-oz

Deciding that Ellison is "antisocial and chauvinistic" on the basis
of this short story violates the First Commandment of criticism:
Thou Shalt Not Confuse the Author With His Characters.  An author's
creation of a sexist/racist/antisocial/warmongering/cat-hating
character (or society for that matter) tells you nothing very much
about the author.  But then, Harlan seems to elicit such reactions.
One of his stories, "Croatoan," managed the amazing feat of
simultaneously pissing off both pro-choice and anti-abortion folk.

I have read all of Ellison's stuff that I can get my hands on, and
reread it regularly.  I firmly believe he is a *great* writer whose
work can stand alongside the classics (not all of it, of course, but
even Shakespeare had off days).  I would hardly call "I Have No
Mouth And I Must Scream" typical, by the way; it is probably the
most extremely viscerally revolting of all his stories.  And anyone
who thinks his stories demonstrate Ellison doesn't understand love
or sensitivity should read "The Deathbird," particularly the segment
of it titled "AHBHU."

For real Ellison fans, or anyone who likes good essays for that
matter, a collection of some of the best of Ellison's nonfiction has
recently appeared.  It's called SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN
BED.  I'm not sure of the publisher, but I'm sure jayembee or
someone can enlighten us ...
                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 12 Nov 1984 14:41:39-PST
From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Harlan Ellison and fans

At the convention in Los Angeles a couple months ago, Harlan Ellison
gave a speech about the rude, nasty, and criminal things that
science-fiction fans do to their idols.  They write anonymous hate
letters (Harlan identified one and scared him to death by promising
to do something someday), sign up the authors' home address for all
sorts of awful magazines, steal the authors' property if invited
into the author's home (probably for souvenirs), also throw vomit in
authors' faces at conventions, and say rude and thoughtless things
to authors at conventions.  One author who allowed a fan to sleep in
his house (I don't understand that either) found later his daughter
had been raped by the fan in the night.  Ellison's front door was
egged by a prankster (hours after Ellison had talked about the
beautifully carved doors on a local science-fiction talk show
(Hour25 on KPFK).  There was more, but you don't want to know, and
my memory has graciously failed me here.  Let's treat these authors
with respect and help protect their privacy.

Tom Janzen

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 84 01:52:00 EST
From: Bob Webber <WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Herbert's Fiction

Having seen so many notes on the writings of Frank Herbert, I find
it odd that no one has mentioned his best work, i.e., THE GODMAKERS
(1972 G.P.Putnam's Sons, Berkley edition/ Sept '78, 12th printing/
July 1981).  This work combines a moderately interesting plot with
the pseudo-religious quotations that are the real reason people read
Herbert. For example, midway through the book, we find the following
quotation:

   Those who seek knowledge for the sake of reward, yea even to the
   knowledge of Psi, repeat the errors of the primitive religions.
   Knowledge gained out of fear or hope of reward holds you in a
   basket of ignorance.  Thus the ancients learned to falsify their
   lives.
          ---- Sayings of the ABBODS,
                 The Approach to Psi

Such quotations change from a mere stylistic device to lend
verisimilitude (e.g., Asimov's Encyclopedia Galactica) to intruding
to the extent of becoming the whole point of the book.  I know that
once I had skimmed the quotes in Herbert's latest Dune Revisited, I
knew I had read all that was of interest there.  Given such a
viewpoint, questions of scientific accuracy in Herbert's religious
(science?) fiction seem as irrelevant as creationism.

                BOB (webber@rutgers.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 1984  21:32 EST
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: binder%dosadi.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
Subject: Militarily applicable technology

    Date: Friday, 2 November 1984  16:29-EST
    From: binder%dosadi.DEC at decwrl.ARPA
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   Will the DUNE controversy never end?

    ARRGGH!  The most serious violation of the Convention possible,
    as pointed out just before the final battle in DUNE, is the use
    of atomics against people.  Nuking the hypothetical outsiders
    isn't a viable option.  As for scruples against the use of guns,
    Baron Harkonnen seems not to have had any such, and his invasion
    of Arrakis with artillery was therefore quite effective.

True.  But the stated primary purpose of the weapons was not
deterrence, but fighting off non-human intelligences if they ever
arrived.  DUNE had no human outsiders; it is this closedness that
makes the Butlerian restriction possible.  I did not intend to imply
that guns were tabu as well; this was purely a part of my historical
example.  However, on every planet in the system *except Arrakis*
(where shields' attractiveness to sandworms made their use
dangerous), guns were effectively useless.  It is a credit to the
Baron's intelligence/cunning/tactics that he was capable of
employing such an obscure weapon to good effect in the one situation
where it would be usable.

    > ...  To what purpose can a computer be employed when any
    > weapon more powerful than a broadsword is ineffective,
    > suicidal, or both?  Fire control for bows and arrows?

    Aw, c'mon now, this surmise borders on idiocy.  Consider the
    hunter- seeker that was used in the initial attempt on Paul's
    life.  That was a little more sophisticated than a broadsword,
    I'll wager.  If such weapons are possible, what is the law of
    nature that says an electronically aimed slow pellet cannon
    (whose projectiles explode once inside a shield) won't work?
    Such a device, controlled by even a stupid automaton, could
    wreak havoc.  The key question here, then, is rather at what
    point of sophistication said fire-control engine becomes a
    machine built in the image of a man's mind - that is what the
    Butlerian Jihad destroyed and the O.C. Bible prohibits.

I think that this is the point where we have to step back a bit from
DUNE itself and consider the author's intent.  Sure, you can build
slow missiles, but what impact will they have on the story?  Most of
DUNE's power comes from Herbert's translation of an Arabian-Nights
setting into SF terms.  "Hi-tech" (stillsuits, etc., excluded)
*must* be both suspect and esoteric, or it ceases to be a thematic
equivalent of magic.  Had Herbert written DUNE as an allegory of
WW2, maybe.  (As far as that goes, I'm sure Herbert could easily
have bullshitted in some obscure characteristic of shields (they fry
computers, maybe?) to eliminate it.  It's a trivial enough point
that I wouldn't even bother to accuse him of oversight though.)

--Jim

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1984 09:47:16-EST
From: uucp at CCC
Subject: Palmer's Emergence

Having read both the stories ``Emergence'' is based on, and having
nominated and voted both for the Hugo, I have to say I was happy
with the resulting novel.

I'd have to say the pacing of the book is one of it's big points.
Palmer is very good at spacing action out with long narratives to
keep the pacing even. Also, various and sundry events keep the book
from degrading into ``Candy takes a vacation''.

Apropos comments about Heinlein-like supercharacters: Candy is
bright. Candy is strong. However, unlike most of RAH's
super-characters, Candy is not perfect. She screws up, misjudges
people, etc. And, most important, she has self-doubts.  Frequently.
No Heinlein superman ever stopped to think if they were doing the
right thing. Also, Candy gets *very* scared on several occasions.

The key to creating a post-homo superior race is in making it still
have the homo half (anyone making dirty jokes stays after school).
That is, they must still seem human, and have human problems. They
can be smarter and stronger, but must still seem to be like us. I
had hundreds of times the compassion and ability to relate to Candy
than I did for Joe from Heinlein's Gulf, even given the sex
difference.

                      *** Spoiler Warning ***

Finally, I realy hadn't the slightest idea whether she would survive
her re-entry. *That* strikes me as good writing. And, importantly, I
really cared.
                        James M. Turner
                        lmi-capricorn!jmturn%ccc@MIT-MC
                        uucp: physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 14:08 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Book of Swords

    The complete set of The Book of Swords is the current selection
of the Science Fiction Book Club.  My notice came yesterday.  For
those of you who wish a copy, find a friend who is a member, or
whatever.

    Just thought you'd like to know.

Brett Slocum
     ("Risk ... risk is our business.")

------------------------------

Date: Fri Nov  9 11:53:06 1984
From: cracraft@sri-tsca
Cc: pourne@mit-mc
Subject: fiction that I hate

This is frequently the sort of fiction assigned in 'masterpieces'
literature courses at universities. It is the sort of fiction that
is "folksy", or "cute", or "down-home."

I think, for the most part (no matter who has written it), it is the
most useless and boring garbage I have ever read.  We get stock
characters, although distorted in various sophisticated ways so as
to make them less "stock", but I see through that ruse and despise
it nevertheless.

I have had to put up with so much of this over the years that when I
get back to really good fiction like Silverberg's DYING INSIDE or
Harlan Ellison's DEATHBIRD STORIES, I revel in the fact that
literature is not dead.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 13:08:29-PST
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Bridges for sale

> From: knight@rlgvax.UUCP (Steve Knight)
> By the way . . . have I got a bridge for *you*!

If you really think you have a bridge to sell, I highly recommend
reading the story "Bernie the Faust."  I can't recall the author
right off, but the story has appeared in several anthologies.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1984 08:58:48-EST
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc
Subject: The Steiger Effect

I'm trying to locate a story, possibly called 'The Steiger Effect'
in which Earth sells machinery and/or electronics to aliens.  The
aliens take the goods back to their planet, and find that none of
them work.  A guy named Steiger is sent to discover why, and he
figures out that there is an effect, named later after him, that a
device only works if there is someone around who has some inkling of
how it works.  The solution is that humans have to be stationed on
the aliens' planet to induce the stuff to work.  I may have the plot
wrong - the thing I remember is the Steiger Effect.

Does anyone recognise this story?  Who wrote it, and where was it
published?

------------------------------

From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (The Napoleon of Crime)
Subject: Re: Re: Buckaroo Banzai, Babysitter
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 19:21:51 MST

>    It's good to see your old babysitter on the silver screen...

Ah, protecting innocents even then... is it any wonder that we'd
follow him anywhere?

Seriously, do you know if he played a Jewish Nazi (!) in an episode
of Lou Grant?  I saw it the other night, but missed the credits.

After "Firstborn", boasting that he was your babysitter may be
something of a claim to bravery... :-)

                          "It's not MY GODDAMN PLANET, Monkey Boy!"

                                Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
 {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
 !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

From: lhasa!stew@harvard.ARPA
Date: 9 Nov 84 22:35 EST
Subject: Silicon chemistry

There's nothing wrong, chemically, with carbon-silicon combinations.
Organic chemists make organosilicon compounds all the time.  The big
problem with silicon based compounds is that the Si-Si bond is quite
weak.  All the strong silicon compounds (glass, etc.) contain
lattices of silicon-oxygen-silicon units.  There are good chemical
reasons why carbon is the major constituent of living organisms.  In
fact, I find life such as that found in Dr. Bob Forward's "Dragon's
Egg" more plausible than non-carbon based life, but maybe only
because I know less about nuclear than organic chemistry...

Though, speaking of Forward, his next book is about Silicon based
life living on an interesting planet in the Barnard's Star system.
He spends a great deal more time discussing the planetary system
than the chemistry of the inhabitants, though.

Stew
rubenstein@harvard.arpa
ihnp4!harvard!rubenstein

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 23:07:12-CST
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: MARS NEEDS WOMEN

One thing that might be of interest (or might not) is the fact that
there is a song entitled Mars Needs Women on Peter Wolf's newest
album.  It has absolutely no significance that I know of.

                --Doug

------------------------------

Date: Sat Nov 10 12:00:37 1984
From: cracraft@sri-tsca
Subject: Worldcon in Australia

I would like to find out when and where the worldcon in Australia
will be.  I wouldn't normally go so far, but a good friend of mine
lives down under and it will be an extra excuse to visit.

        Stuart

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #201
Date: 15 Nov 84 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Nov 84 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 15 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 201

Today's Topics:

              Art - SF Artists,
              Books - Donaldson & Ellison & Heinlein &
                      Herbert (2 msgs) & Knight & Kurtz &
                      LeGuin & Palmer,
              Films - Buckaroo Banzai,
              Radio - SF Programs,
              Miscellaneous - Combat in a Vacuum (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1984 11:17:23-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: SF artists.

     Recent comments on the cover of the new edition of THE
PERSISTENCE OF VISION inspired me to post this.  I agree with those
comments, by the way; the new cover is almost laughable compared to
the original.  Anyone know if the SF Book Club still offers their
edition of the book?  Like the Dell paperback, its jacket had the
same illo as the original Dial Press edition.  And whatever happened
to Dial Press anyway?

     But before I digress further....

     A recent Locus contained results of a readers' poll; one
category was best artist.  Results follow:

                                   points
                                   ------
          1)  Michael Whelan        2054
          2)  Rowena Morrill        1141
          3)  Don Maitz              576
          4)  Barclay Shaw           545
          5)  Boris Vallejo          413
          6)  Darrell Sweet          335
          7)  Victoria Poyser        268
          8)  Val Lakey Lindahn      253
          9)  Kelly Freas            239
         10)  Carl Lundgren          238
         11)  Alicia Austin          221
         12)  Vincent DiFate         193
         13)  Jim Burns              188
         14)  David Mattingly        180
         15)  The Dillons            153
         16)  Stephen Fabian         141
         17)  Frank Frazetta         123
         18)  Tom Kidd               122
         19)  Phil Foglio            117
         20)  Kevin Johnson          114
         20)  A. Gilliland           114

     I was a bit disappointed to see Whelan at the top (just as I
was to see him take the Hugo again this year).  Yeah, he's good; but
personally I feel that lately he's let his quality slip in favor of
quantity, and I consider the former more important.

     But my really big disappointment was that Stephen Hickman did
not even make the list!  Honestly, I was mystified!  Hickman's done
some fine work: covers for several of Ardath Mayhar's books, also
for JHEREG and YENDI by Stephen Brust.  My own favorite is his cover
for the Ace edition of IN IRON YEARS by Gordon R.  Dickson.  Hickman
deserves some recognition; anyone else feel similarly?  Or have
related comments?

     My nomination for most delightful cover of the year: that of
THE DIGGING LEVIATHAN by James P. Blaylock (Ace).  It's by Jim
Gurney (a newcomer as far as I know, but one who's coming up fast;
I've already seen at least two covers by him for Baen/Tor, one for
DAW, and he did the December F&SF (the big dragon)).  Imagine (if
you can) Norman Rockwell illustrating one of Burroughs' Pellucidar
novels --- wonderful!
                                   ---  Jeff Rogers
                                        jcr@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

Subject: King Donaldson
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 18:17:25 EST
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

        ... contains an awful piece by King ...

    I hate to tell you this (actually, I love to tell you this,
    being a King fan, myself), but the story you just described,
    "What Makes Us Human" [no "?"], in the August 1984 of F&SF is by
    Stephen R.  Donaldson, *not* Stephen King.

    --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

Well, I guess that's the kind of thing that makes us human.  Let's
hope Donaldson's had his fill of SF writing.  (Oh my, I hope that
doesn't offend anyone ... )

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 84 09:22 EST
From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Eisen's (et al) message regarding Ellison SF-LOVERS
Subject: Digest
Cc: mdc.janice@mit-oz.ARPA

Oooo, Janice, I didn't say I had decided Ellison was a chauvanist,
anti-social, or any such thing.  But the feminine reaction to "A Boy
and His Dog" in these parts has been humorously extreme: L. Q.
Jones's movie version was picketed by NOW when it played at the
Univ. of Rochester, and my girlfriend refuses to read it.  From this
context, the enjoyment of such works could be viewed as antisocial
and chauvinistic.  And so I have been told...

As to the "You're a nobody" quotation: Ellison blurted this out upon
being introduced to Issac Asimov. (i think it was IA) I believe this
episode is related in the intro to "Again, Dangerous Visions".

I meant this only as an allusion to the public response to the
Ellison work I am most familiar with.

I'm still looking for Ellison anthologies...

Regards
zot  <schneider.wbst>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 13:27 MST
From: Charlie Spitzer <Spitzer@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: JOB: A Comedy of Justice (R A Heinlein)
Cc: "{forum >udd>bm>mtgs>books.control}"@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA

I just finished reading this.  It starts off ok, but loses its'
place in the middle and finishes terribly.  Unless you're a diehard
Heinlein fan, don't bother with this one.

charlie spitzer (spitzer%pco@cisl-service-multics)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 13:49:30 EST
From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Science vs Story, and Dune in Particular.

Dave cannot directly access CSNET, so I'm relaying his contribution.

Date: 13 November 1984, 09:11:02 CST
From: David W. Marquart
      47K/050-3
      Rochester MN 55901

A couple of comments about the debate on Science vs. Story, with the
Dune books in particular:

I like a wide range of SF and fantasy, ranging from 'hard' to 'soft'
and all of the unclassifiable subgenres.  Scientific errors don't
spoil stories for me (unless they are to the point of stupidity),
and analysis of the science or lack thereof in a story doesn't spoil
it either.  My friends and I enjoy such analysis, and often do it at
conventions.  (We wonder such things as whether the satellite with
the rebel base on it in Star Wars would break up because it was too
close to its primary.)  Those not interested in such discussions
don't participate.

Somewhere in the books there was a speculation that the sandworms
were not indigenous to the planet, and that they had destroyed an
earlier ecosystem after their (unexplained) introduction.  This is
in response to the comment that they could not have evolved on the
planet.

I think that science is important, and that stories should not throw
science to the wind.  On the other hand, there are many good stories
that postulate changes to physical laws, or introduce new science
that lets us 'get around' current limitations, etc.  The important
thing is to make it believable.  I can accept fantasy, new
universes, new machines, etc., but not gross insults to my
intelligence.  The problem here is that everyone defines that
differently.

On Dune in general, I like the first book and thought that the rest
of the series was a long decline.

David Marquart     2115 23rd st NW, Rochester MN  55901
   "just south of the glacier"

I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a prefrontal
lobotomy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 14 Nov 84 01:43:32-EST
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Quotations at the heads of chapters

Several authors use this trick, and I enjoy it.  It can be used (as
Herbert did in Dune) to give background information and impressions
without interrupting the story flow.  And it's fun to pay close
attention to them on a reread, to catch all the foreward references
that they usually contain.

BUT - to say that they are the point of the book, and the most
interesting part?  If so, then GODMAKERS could have been a lot
shorter - just print the quotations and leave out the plot.  Once
they reached the religion planet, I didn't like the book all that
well.  Guess if I'd liked the chapter head quotes, I might have
liked the rest better.

        Larry

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 12 Nov 1984 14:39:05-PST
From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: I See You by Damon Knight

If someone asked about a story about a device that allowed people to
see any place or time, it was "I See You" by Damon Knight and is in
Best Science fiction #6 by Terry Carr.  I like it because of the
reference to Natalie Wood.  Tom

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1984  13:50 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Deryni

        Anyone know when the next book, "The King's Justice", is due
out?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 11:36 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Who put the K. in Ursula K.?

    From: jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL)
    Subject: Summarizing the TFS responses
    Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 09:02:40 MDT

    "Kronk" may well refer to Walter Cronkite, as most people
    suggested, but I'm sure a more appropriate diety for The Future
    could be found among all the unused SF authors.  One person
    offered Groff Conklin.  (What *does* the K in Ursula K. LeGuin
    stand for?)

K. is for Kroeber.  LeGuin's father was Alfred Kroeber, a noted
anthropologist.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1984 23:50-EST
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@NRL-AIC>
Subject: Re: Palmer's Emergence
Cc: umcp-cs!allegra!physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn at NRL-AIC

    Date: 10 Nov 1984 09:47:16-EST
    From: James M Turner <lmi-capricorn!jmturn%ccc@MIT-MC>

    Apropos comments about Heinlein-like supercharacters: Candy is
    bright. Candy is strong. However, unlike most of RAH's
    super-characters, Candy is not perfect. She screws up, misjudges
    people, etc. And, most important, she has self-doubts.
    Frequently.  No Heinlein superman ever stopped to think if they
    were doing the right thing. Also, Candy gets *very* scared on
    several occasions.

Funny, the Emergence stories looked like a Podkayne clone to me.  I
can't quote you chapter and verse, but your description of C is
exactly my vague recollection of P.

Podkayne seemed unfinished, though, and there I think Emergence
wins.  But I think the best female adolescence story I've read is
Panshin's Rite of Passage.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1984 11:14:42-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai's other role.

     Haven't seen this in the digest yet, and so just in case some
of you are unaware of it, here goes....

     Peter Weller also stars in a more recently released film,
"Firstborn."  Though not a fantasy or SF film in any way, it is (and
this is more important anyway) a very, very good film, with several
excellent performances, of which Weller's is by no means the least.

     For what it's worth, I recommend it highly.

                                    ---  Jeff Rogers
                                         jcr@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 12 Nov 1984 14:42:21-PST
From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Stop me if you've heard this one

ANNOUNCER:      Listener-sponsored Pacifica radio for all of
                southern California, this is KPFK, Los Angeles,
                ninety-point seven on your FM dial, Dolby-B encoded,
                twenty-four hours a day.
                (beat)
                It's ten o'clock on a Friday night, and time for
                science fact, science fantasy, and science fiction
                on Hour twenty-five, with your hosts Mike Hodel, Mel
                Gilden, and Terry Hodel with the Science- Fiction
                Calendar.  It's the first Friday of the month, and
                as always Linda Strawn will be here with Future
                Watch at ten thirty.

Then a groovy intro where the "Group Mind" is engaged like a NASA
launch.  Then Mike and Mel goof off for a couple minutes, then tell
what the next five shows will be about, then read a couple quick
articles from the magazines and newspapers about sf, then by 10:20
or 10:40 Terry Hodel (the ex mrs. mike) does five or so minutes of
science-fiction etc.  events for the week, then about 10:45 the
guest of the evening comes on and Mike and Mel interview them.  The
guest is usually a biggie in the field.  Harlan Ellison is on a lot
because he lives nearby, or he calls in with something.  David
Gerrold, whose secretary I tried to date without knowing she was his
secretary, lives a little further and is on sometimes.  Bradbury is
on every so often, and he once told me I tell a good ghost story,
which I did over the phone last halloween (Twain's Golden Arm from
how to tell a story).  They talk about the writing field (both hosts
are pro writers), getting started, about movies and that field.
They open the phones and the listeners (the Group Mind, or G.M.) ask
tough questions and give information.  the engineer for the show is
Burt Handlesman, Crack Engineer (or just C.E.).  This goes on for
two hours solid, except the first friday when the incredible
brilliant and attractive Linda is on, talking to "people that watch
the future".

Don't you wish you were going to be in L.A. next Friday night?

Tom Janzen DEC Marlboro MA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 15:28 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re : Death in Silence
To: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA

    Just thought I'd clear something up.  I was refering to
ship-to-ship combat, not man-to-man combat.  I agree with you about
the potential excitement that could be generated, if it
(hand-to-hand or man-to-man combat in vacuum) was done right.

    I remember a novel by Ben Bova called The Duelists (or something
like that) in which two people would hook themselves up to a direct
brain stimulation unit to duel.  The machine could generate any
environment or situation in the minds of the participants, and they
would fight each other in their heads.  Kind of like video games in
the brain.  When you killed your opponent in the simulation, the
duel was over and both were alive.

    In one such duel, the environment was the surface of a small
asteroid, and the duelists were in vacc suits.  The first to breach
the other's suit would win the duel.  It was very interesting book,
and that scene illustrates the kind of thing about which you are
talking.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 1984  20:14 EST
From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Mortal Combat

Gee, I alway thought ship-to-ship combat was mortal ... perhaps I
haven't played enough videogames lately.

On a more serious note, the big problem with skiffy movies as a
genre is that they seem to be mostly drawn from the WWI fighter
pilot archetype (or, on occasion, the WW2 protracted naval
engagement movie).  While this is a reasonable source, it requires
things like noise in a vacuum, "fighters" with wings, a consistently
maintained "up", etc., to pull it off.

There is, fortunately, an existing precedent for the kind of combat
that one would be likely to see in space, although (with the
exception of one relatively bad Star Trek episode) no one that I
know of has done much with it; this is the submarine warfare movie,
along the lines of _Run Silent, Run Deep_ or, more recently, _Das
Boot_.  You don't have to be swimming for the water to drown you.
And you don't have to be in a spacesuit, fighting with switchblades,
for space to feel dangerous.

--Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #202
Date: 19 Nov 84 1142-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Nov 84 1142-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 202

Today's Topics:

           Books - Donaldson & Heinlein & Niven & Tenn &
                   The Flying Sorceror (3 msgs),
           Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 09:35:16-EST
From: Nancy Lynn Connor <NANCY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson

Actually he has written some good works... he wrote "The Chronicles
of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever".  I will say however, that the
second chronicles are not of the same quality as the first.  In the
first of the two trilogies he writes about magic, giants, and a very
real love of the Land, in such a way as to put you there.  It had a
good measure of pain and suffering, but that was leavened with hope
and joy.

In the second trilogy, after Covenant has saved the Land (with great
pain and cost to everyone involved), the Land again needs saving...
but this time he is not to be the central character.  A new one is
brought in, and this changes the viewpoint drastically.  This would
not be a bad thing, in and of itself, but there is too much emphasis
on blood, evil, and perversion.

So, while I wouldn't necessarily recommend the second trilogy, I
would recommend the first.  It is fantasy, but for those who love
unlikely heros, and a quest with many sidetracks into good character
development, these would be for you.

        -Nancy Connor   <nancy@mit-mc%oz>

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 84 12:49:41 EST (Friday)
Subject: RE: JOB: A Comedy of Justice (R A Heinlein)
From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@XEROX.ARPA>

   "I just finished reading this.  It starts off ok, but loses its'
place in the middle and finishes terribly.  Unless you're a diehard
Heinlein fan, don't bother with this one.

charlie spitzer (spitzer%pco@cisl-service-multics)"

I disagree entirely!! I thought this was the best book Heinlein's
written in years and would recommend it to anyone interested in
religion, Heinlein, or just a good story.  Of course, I could be
prejudiced because he picked out all of the things about
Christianity that I have always been uncomfortable with, and gave
plausible alternative explanations that I liked a lot.

I should say that a friend of mine, who also thought it was an
excellent book, pointed out that the dialog was unnatural at times,
but the story is great.

                     ******MINI-SPOILER*******

If you liked the world view in "The Unpleasant Profession of
Jonathan Hoag", you should definitely read this book.

~Brenda

It was mighty foggy outside of Rochester a few weeks ago.......

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1984 11:13:16-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: SF -- keeping facts straight.

     I must agree with Jeff Duntemann's most recent comment in which
he writes:

        "...it's science fiction, right?  Who cares
         about keeping dumb things like facts straight?"

I mean, how can it be worth reading if it's not firmly based in
current scientific theory?  Why, one of the greatest charlatans of
all time is Larry Niven, who has somehow managed to convince people
that he's a writer of hard SF.  Even the most cursory examination of
his most popular work, RINGWORLD, will reveal that this is not so.
"Scrith," indeed!  The existence of such a substance has absolutely
no foundation in current theory; it's utter fantasy!  If Niven knew
any physics at all, he wouldn't insult our intelligence by throwing
such unexplained stupidities at us.  And considering how important
the substance is to the novel's plot, I've no choice but to throw
RINGWORLD on the dungheap along with all other such fantastic trash.
     But even Niven's work is not as bad as what's openly classed as
fantasy.  Talk about throwing scientific theory to the winds!
Reality itself is not safe in that genre.  Thank god fantasy and SF
are two distinct genres, with no blurring, no continuous spectrum,
between them.  That would be unbearable!

     OK.  I've gone on long enough.  Forgive me.  It's just that I
tire of the negative remarks concerning DUNE, and I genuinely feel
that the discussion has reached the point of ... pointlessness.

                                          ---  Jeff Rogers
                                               jcr@mitre-bedford
[ Hi, Dwight Bartholomew. Remember me? ]

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 15 Nov 84 15:26:38 EST
Subject: Bernie the Faust!

Bernie the Faust is perhaps the best work of William Tenn, who also
wrote the so-so novel OF MEN AND MONSTERS and a memorable tale
called "On Venus, Do We Have a Rabbi."  Ballantine released a set of
six books by Tenn back when I was in college, with very distinctive
covers.  Uneven stuff, from howlers like Bernie to any number of
things that fall utterly flat.  I believe the author's real name is
Phil Klass, and much of his fiction has a distinctly Jewish flavor.
I heard him speak at a con some years back and he was sensational.
If you can find something called "The Masculinist Revolt", read it.
But strap yourself into your chair first...

--Jeff Duntemann
Oh, rats.  Out of metals.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 15 Nov 1984 11:53:12-PST
From: wasser_1%viking.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John A. Wasser)
Subject: Cast of "Flying Sorcerers"

Here is the (hopefully) complete cast of characters from "The Flying
Sorcerers" as derived from earlier postings in SF-LOVERS and a
re-reading of the book.  Please let me know if anyone is missing or
if any of the information is inaccurate.  Note that persons marked
"(deceased)" are the ones who are dead when their names are first
mentioned.

                Locals:

Lant the Bonemonger (later turned Speaker of the Upper Village)
                (full name: Lant-la-lee-lay-lie-ah-no) The story is
                told from Lant's point of view.
Shoogar the Magician (trained by Alger)
Wilville and Orbur, the bicycle makers (eldest sons of Lant)
        Wilbur and Orville Wright (also bicycle makers)
Pilg the Crier
Damd the Tree-Binder
Ang the Frog Grader (later turned Fish-Farmer and Net-tender)
Thran the Speaker (deceased)
Tavit the Shepherd (deceased)
Ran'll the Quaff-Maker (deceased)
Froo the Shepherd
Jark the Quaff-Maker
Hinc the Weaver
Hinc the Lesser (a.k.a. Lesser Hinc) Hinc's half brother, later
        called Hinc the Hairless because he argued with Shoogar...
Gortik the Speaker (of the Lower Village)
Lesta the Weaver (head of the Weavers Caste (later the Clothmakers
        Guild))
Dorthi the Magician (deceased) (classmate of Shoogar... student of
        Alger)
Trone the Copersmith
Bellis the Potter
Farg the Weaver
Ford the Digger (deceased)
Grimm the Tailor
Pran the Carpenter
Zone the Vendor
Little Gortik (probably son of Gortik)
Snarg
Kif
Totty
Goldin
Old Khart, the lead ram of the flock

                The Visitor:

His speakerspell translates his name as:
        "as a color, shade of purple gray"
He is known throughout the book as Purple.

                The Suns:

Ouells, the blue sun
        H. G. Wells

Virn, the red sun
        Jules Vern

                The Gods:

        Most if not all of the Gods are named after Science Fiction
        luminaries.  The names given below are the best fit that
        I've heard so far...  If you have a better choice, please
        let me know so I can update this list.  I could also use
        some more justification for the names given... many are just
        there because of a similarity of pronunciation.

Fineline, God of Engineers and Architects
        Robert Heinlin?

Brad, God of the Past
        Ray Bradburry?

Pull'nissin, God of Duels
        Paul Anderson?

Klarther, God of the Skies and Seas
        Arthur C. Clark?

Hitch, God of the Birds
        Alfred Hitchcock (for the movie "The Birds")

Blok, God of Violence
        ???????

Tis'turzhin, God of Love
        ???????

Leeb, God of Magic
        Fritz Lieber?

Musk-watz, God of Winds
        Sam Moskowitz, the author/editor/fan/critic/historian.

Furman, God of Fasf
        Ed Ferman, a former editor of FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION

Po, the Causer of Decay
        Edgar Allen Poe

Peers, "a mad demon who gnashes and gnarls mightily" Ruler of the
       mountain chain called the "Teeth of Despair"
        ??????

Fol, God of Distortion
        Fredric Pohl?
        Phil Foglio?  (winner of three (?) Fan Artist hugos. He is a
                cartoonist and caricaturist, ergo a god of
                distortion)

Tukker, God of Names
        Wilson Tucker?

Yake, God of What-if
        John Jakes?

Eccar the Man:  An arrangement of moons.  His symbol is the
                triangle.
                A mortal who became a god.
        Forrest J. Ackerman (why the triangle)

Kronk, God of the Future
        Walter Cronkite?  (hosted "the 21st century")
        Groff Conklin?

Poup, God of Fertility
        Jerry Pournelle?
        pop (as in Population)?

N'veen, God of Tides and Patron of Mapmakers
        Larry Niven ("There is a Tide", "Neutron Star")

Elcin, "Oh Great and Tiny God of Lightning and Loud Noises"
        Harlan Ellison

Rotn'bair, God of Sheep: symbol is the horned box. favored son is
                the deformed changeling.
        Gene Roddenberry (horned box = TV, deformed changeling =
                Spock, sheep = Trekkies)

Nils'n, God of the Mud Creatures: symbol is "%", enemy of Rotn'bair.
        Neilson (ratings)

Sp'ree, Ruler of Slime
        Norman Spinrad?

Filfo-mar, God of Rivers
        Phillip Jose Farmer ("Riverworld")

Caff, God of Dragons
        Anne McCaffrey ("Dragonriders of Pern")

                Other notes:

All the female natives (who have names at all) seem to have the
names of female SF authors:
        Kate    (Wilhelm?)
        Judy    (?)
        Anne    (?)
        Ursula  (K. LeGuin)
        Karen   (?)
        Andre   (?)
        Marian  (Zimmer Bradley)
        Leigh   (?)
        Miriam  (?)
        Sonya   (?)
        Zenna   (Henderson)
        Joanna  (?)
        Quinn   (?)
They are given names by Purple so he can tell them apart as native
women normally have no names.

Wilville and Orbur are bicycle builders who help to design and build
a flying machine (hydrogen balloon).  The balloon is named "Cathawk"
by Purple.  Probably the best translation he could get for "Kitty
Hawk"

"The Cathawk has landed" seem to imply some kinship with the Eagle
of Apollo 11.

The word "yngvi" is used to mean "louse".  The origin of this may be
L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt's stories of Harold Shea -- in
one of which a mad prisoner in a dungeon shouts, every hour on the
hour, "Yngvi is a louse!!"

Dorthi, the Magician of one of the island villages, died when Purple
fell from the sky and landed on him.  Purple becomes the new
Magician and gets Dorthi's "scarlet sandals" as a badge of office.
Sound familiar?

Two of Shoogars magic implements are the "filk-singer flute" and the
"appas" (APA's... get it).

                John A. Wasser
                Digital Equipment Corporation

ARPAnet:WASSER%VIKING.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-viking!wasser
USPS:   LJO2/E4
        30 Porter Rd
        Littleton, MA  01460

------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 01:12:42-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
Subject: The Flying Sorcerers

        My interest piqued by the recent letters in SFL, I pulled
down my copy of The Flying Sorcerers (by David Gerrold and Larry
Niven), and reread it while keeping notes on the fannish in-jokes.
(I first read it in 75', before I was really aware of fandom).  I
think this is a more or less exhaustive list of the characters, with
as many of the real names as possible attached. I certainly did not
get all of these myself; many came from the earlier letters
published in this space.

                         ** slight spoiler **

Major characters:

As a color, shade of Purple-grey (Purple)       Issac Asimov
Lant-la-lee-lay-ah-no (Lant)                    ?
Shoogar the Magician                            ?
        (has a 'filk-singer' flute).
Wilville and Orbur                              Wilbur & Orville
                                                (Wright)

Other natives:
Pilg the Crier          Hinc the weaver         Damd the tree binder
Ran'll the Quaff-maker  Tavit the shepherd      Ang the frog grader
Trone the coppersmith   Bellis the potter       Lesta the weaver
Ford the digger         Grimm the tailor        Little Gortik
Big Gortik              Zone the vendor         Farg the weaver

Dorthi: a magician, whom Purple kills by falling from the sky,
        crushing his house. He wore scarlet sandals, which Purple
        inherited.  Obviously a reference to OZ.
Old Alger, a magician.

Gods:
Musk-Watz, the wind-god                         Sam Moskowitz
N'veen, god of tides, patron of mapmakers       Larry Niven
Rotn'bair, god of sheep. sign: horned box (TV)  Gene Rodenberry
        Deformed changeling (Spock?) is his favored son.
Nils'n, god of mud creatures. sign: %           Harry Neilson
        Enemy of Rotn'bair.
Filfo-mar, the river god                        Phil Farmer
Eccar the Man                                   Forry Ackerman?
        served the gods so well he was raised to godhood himself.
        Symbol: triangle.
Elcin, the great and tiny god of thunder.       Harlan Ellison
Klarther, god of seas and skies                 Arthur C.  Clarke
Fol, god of Distortion                          Fred Pohl?
Hitch, god of birds.                            Alfred Hitchcock
Blok, god of violence                           Robert Bloch
Tis'turzhin, god of love                        ??distortion
Pull'nissin, god of duels                       ??pugillism
Tukker, god of names                            Bob Tucker
Caff, god of dragons                            Anne McCaffrey
Yake, god of what-if                            ?
Furman, god of fasf                             Ed Ferman

The sign of Gafia, when all the gods stop listening. (get away from
it all).

Womens' names: Kate (Wilheim), Judy (-Lynn Del Rey), Anne
(McCaffrey), Ursula (K. LeGuin), Karen (?), Andre (Norten), Miriam
(Zimmer Bradley), Leigh (Brackett), Sonya (?), Zenna (Henderson),
Joanna (Russ), (Chelsea) Quinn (Yarbro).

Things:
Ouells and Virn, the two suns                      Wells and Verne

The Mouth of Teev. A whirlpool, appears at the end of summer, and
        sucks up everything. The fall TV season?

The Teeth of Despair. A mountain range, with peaks like Critic's
        Tooth and Viper's Bite. Ruled by the mad demon Peers, who
        'gnashes and gnarls mightily. He attacks natives and
        strangers alike.' I feel this is probably someone.

The Cathawk. (Kittyhawk) A dirigible built by Wilville and Orbur. At
        the end of the story, it is put on display in Smith's Son's
        Clearing (the Smithsonian).
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei%cu20b.arpa
"Life sucks, and then you die."

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 84 11:34:03 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Flying Sorceror

        I believe that Tis 'turzhin is Ted Sturgeon and Peers may be
Piers Anthony.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 10:00 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Sub warfare in space
To: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA

    Is the Star Trek episode you are refering to called "Balance of
Terror"?  Personally I enjoyed that one a lot.  It was one of two
episodes that had Romulans in it (My favorite ST aliens, though
Klingons are fab too).  I must admit I liked "The Enterprise
Incident" better, but you get to see Kirk with pointed ears and you
get to see Spock get intimate.  Not to mention that Romulans are in
it.

Brett Slocum
("I'm going to bob your ears.")

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #203
Date: 20 Nov 84 1322-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Nov 84 1322-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 203

Today's Topics:

      Books - Adams & Eddings & The Flying Sorceror (7 msgs) &
              Comments on SF (2 msgs),
      Films - The Terminator,
      Videos - The Empire Strikes Back (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 07:09:57 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH by Douglas Adams

This book is billed as 'the fourth book in the HITCHHIKER'S
trilogy', which tells you at once just how serious it is...  I won't
attempt to describe the book for someone who hasn't learned how to
fly, or to mix a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster, or to enjoy THE
HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY and other books by Douglas Adams,
but I will drop the following tidbits for aficionados: Arthur Dent
is back on Earth, where curiously no one seems to remember that the
planet was destroyed to make way for a hyperspatial bypass, and even
more surprisingly, he manages to fall in love.  FISH feels weaker
than the other books in the series because its sole plot device is
to tie together three fairly trivial loose ends from the earlier
story, but it is more satisfactory in its treatment of characters --
we get to see more of Arthur Dent than his years of existence as the
ashtray of history.  The book is every bit as funny as its
predecessors: Adams' talent for irony is superior to every other sf
writer I know except possibly Robert Sheckley.

The obligatory quote:

        THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, in a moment of
        reasoned lucidity which is almost unique among its current
        tally of five million, nine hundred and seventy-three
        thousand, five hundred and nine pages, says of the Sirius
        Cybernetics Corporation products that 'it is very easy to be
        blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of
        achievement you get from getting them to work at all.

        'In other words -- and this is the rock-solid principle on
        which the whole of the Corporation's Galaxywide success is
        founded -- their fundamental design flaws are completely
        hidden by their superficial design flaws.'

Don't forget to forget the bit about hitting the ground,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

PS -- Monty Python's THE MEANING OF LIFE is currently playing on
cable; if you're an Adams trivia freak, watch the movie's title
sequence very closely and you'll see something amusing.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 12:55:31-CST
From: Pete Galvin <CC.GALVIN@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Enchanter's End Game

For those of you who were in the same boat as me, that is having
read the first four books in a five book series, the agony is over.

Enchanter's End Game by David Eddings

has finally hit the stores (at least here in Texas).  I haven't read
it yet (I just bought it 10 minutes ago), but I though I'd share my
glee.

                                   --Pete

P.s. For those of you who haven't yet started the series, there are
no more excuses.  In my humble opinion, this series is on a par with
AMBER.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 19 Nov 84 23:10:31-EST
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: The Flying Sorceror

Mad demon Peers ==> an author's peers, the most critical of critics?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 84 21:58:48 PST (Mon)
Subject: Flying Sorcerers
From: "Tim Shimeall" <tim@uci-icsd>

Could the "mad demon Peers" be a reference to simply that, an
author's peers?  Typically critics are authors themselves...  I
think this fits better than Piers Anthony.
                                Tim

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Nov 84 01:55:15-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: re: The Flying Sorceror

"Peer" most definitely is Piers Anthony.  He was known among SF
writers as the person most likely to sue or to present demands for
justice.  I recall hearing that he has mellowed: perhaps a result of
financial success.  In any case, clearly he was the "mad demon who
gnashes and gnarls mightily".

                                        Don

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 23:30 MST
From: "Ronald B. Harvey" <Harvey@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Cast of "Flying Sorcerers"
Cc: wasser_1%viking.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA (John A. Wasser)

I'm not an expert, but here are my contributions:

First off, you managed to typo some names:

Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, Poul Anderson

Now, for some possibilities:

Blok --> Robert Bloch (wrote Psycho)

Tis'turzhin --> Theodore Sturgeon (God of Love makes some sense if
     you have ever heard him expound his philosophy of life)

Peers --> Piers Anthony? (I have studiously avoided his work)

Fol --> Fred Pohl (Foglio was almost definitely unknown in 1971)

Anne -> McCaffrey
Andre -> Norton
Leigh -> Brackett
Judy -> Judy-Lynn del Rey (?)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 09:49:51 EST
Subject: "With wobbly to fill in the cracks"
From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA>

        I think these are the last few still in dispute ("The Flying
Sorcerers"):

Tis'turzhin, god of love -      Ted Sturgeon
Pull'nissin, god of duels -     Poul Anderson
Peers, gnasher of teeth -       Piers Anthony
Karen -                         Probably Karen Anderson
Miriam -                        NOT Zimmer Bradley (that's Marion),
                                but I can't remember who it is

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 10:52:25 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: womens' names in FLYING SORCERERS

"Karen" is almost certainly Karen Anderson, Poul's wife.

Aren't there any Poul Anderson fans out there?

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1984 11:07:11-EST
From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc
Subject: RE:  Eccar the Man

How about Jesus?  I haven't read the book, so this may be way off
base, but wasn't it Pilate who said, "Ecce homo" ('behold the man',
or maybe 'look at this man') of Jesus when he brought him before the
mob hoping to convince them not to demand his death?  Somebody did,
anyway.  It's one of those quotes I heard around during my four year
hitch at a Protestant girls' school.  He was a man who was also 'God
incarnate', etc., and the triangle is like the Trinity .

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 13:01:41 est
From: cjh@cca-unix (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: two comments

wrt Duntemann's remarks about HSapiens' incurable technophilia: this
is an idea which other SF luminaries have trumpeted in wider forums,
with predictable results. A well-known case is Lester del Rey, whose
continued insistence that a spaceshipload of intelligent castaways
would at once [re]establish a mechanistic culture so irritated
Marion Zimmer Bradley that she wrote DARKOVER LANDFALL, in which
virtually the opposite happens, for good reasons. John Brunner
tackled the question from a different slant (and with a Larousse
Encyclopedia of Mythology conveniently at hand, well before Zelazny
started writing about humans setting themselves up as random
pantheons) and came up with BEDLAM PLANET.

Another reader says that we should ignore the flaws in the world[s]
Herbert creates in DUNE because the flaws are irrelevant to the
story of social decay.  This shows some misunderstanding of
Herbert's own interests and biases, cf for instance THE GREEN BRAIN
(?) (attempting to wipe out all the insects in the Brazilian (?)
jungle causes predictable problems). I also question the assumptions
about the specific focus of DUNE, for which I would argue that it
was based as much on a created ecology (with the plot coming
afterwards) as LORD OF THE RINGS was based on Tolkien's created
languages and the societies they reflected.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 1984  22:27 EST
From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: jcr@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA
Subject: Hard SF and other contradictions in terms

There's a reason that there's not much hard SF hitting the markets
these days, and that is that truly hard SF usually manages to be
unspeakably boring.  I would argue fairly strongly that most good SF
(going back to Wells, even), has required a fair degree of playing
with reality.  "Hard" SF has, for the most part, been a fairly
recent innovation, and one that is easily corrupted (as by Niven, or
by most current practicioners of Hard SF).  Write a story an
engineer can read ...

... and only an engineer will read it.  Oh well.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sun 18 Nov 84 20:32:56-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: The Terminator

    I saw "The Terminator" last night, and found it surprisingly
good.  Of course, with Arnold ("Conan") Schwarnegger in the title
role, my expectations weren't terribly high.

  ********************** SLIGHT SPOILER **************************

    The plot revolves around several well-worn SF ideas:

    - a future where machines have attained consciousness and have
      decided that humans are their enemies and must be exterminated;

    - time travel discovered in the future and used to send a killer
      back in time to assassinate your strongest foe's parent(s);

    - a robot (here called a "cyborg") disguised as a human by having
      a human "skin" grown over it.

    The Terminator is sent from the future to find and kill the
woman named "Sarah Conner", whose son will lead the human forces
against the machines of 2029.  A human soldier is sent after him by
the future humans, to protect Sarah and destroy the Terminator.

    Two things lift "Terminator" above the run-of-the-mill action
film.  First, there are lots of humorous, yet appropriate, little
touches, often based on the fact that the Terminator is a robot, and
thus often quite literal in doing what he says.  These keep the film
from being totally grim, despite the continuous killing.  [Also, the
killings are generally handled in the sanitized TV style (i.e.
without blood and internal organs splattered all over); the worst
gore all relates to damage the Terminator's fleshy shell sustains.]

    Second is the touching romance that develops between the woman
stalked by the Terminator, and the man sent from the future to
protect her.  They both come across as real people, making the best
of a terrible situation.  Even the growth in Sarah's character, from
naive girl to self-sufficient woman is handled believably.

    Flash-forwards to the future are well-timed, although the
special effects aren't particularly spectacular.  Probably the least
satisfying aspect of this film in SF terms is that it completely
ignores the paradoxes inherent in "changing the past", e.g. Can the
past be changed?  What will happen to the Terminator's future if he
does succeed?  Its nature as an action film leaves no room for such
interesting speculations.

    "Terminator" is not a "great" film, but it is completely
satisfying as an action-adventure-chase file. Additionally, as my
companion observed, "Terminator" could be the start of a new film
genre: "SF-Comedy-Violence".  From the print reviews I've seen of
another just-released SF film, "Night of the Comet", he may be
right.

  Steve Dennett
  dennett@sri-nic

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 16 Nov 1984 09:04:42-PST
From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: The Empire Strikes Back videotape defect

I picked up my copies of the Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back
videotapes last night.  While the overall quality of the picture and
the sound is superb, especially the digitally-mastered Beta Hi-Fi
soundtrack of TESB, there is a serious manufacturing defect in the
latter tape.

At 1h32m56s into the tape, there is a complete loss of audio on both
the Hi-Fi and normal soundtracks; this dropout lasts about a second.
My dealer told me that this defect was on all of the nine copies of
the tape he tried; the defect is not on the VHS format copies,
though.  (The scene is where Lando is explaining to Leia and the
just-tortured Han that Vader wants someone named Skywalker.)

The dealer has a call into CBS/Fox to get more information about
this.  I have written a nastygram (via MCI mail) to CBS/Fox
demanding a replacement.  I'll let folks know what I learn about
this.  If you are intending to buy the Beta version of the tape, you
may want to take this into account, though you will almost certainly
be able to get the tape replaced if defective.

Of secondary irritation was the fact that both tapes were covered
with paper dust from the cardboard sleeve - I hate to think what
this might be doing to my VCR's heads.

                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date: Sun 18 Nov 84 13:15:50-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: "The Empire Strikes Back" on video

     I just got my copy, on Laser Disc.  Overall, my feelings of the
video version are *very* mixed.  I have good feelings because this
version is probably the only one we'll ever be able to get for home
use (legally, anyway).  I have bad feelings because the overall
result is technically quite inferior from what it could have been,
especially compared to the wonderful versions of "Star Wars" and
"Raiders of the Lost Ark" which came out earlier.

     Rumor states that George Lucas didn't want to release TESB for
video because he didn't think it could do justice to his work (this
compares to Steven Spielberg's opinion of the video version of
"Raiders"; he thought the color balancing was *better* than the
movie).  One wonders if Lucas ordered this sloppy job to prove his
point.

     The audio tracks were poorly equalized and at some times sound
downright tinny.  Those of you playing it on ordinary Beta or VHS
VCR's probably wouldn't notice the difference, but anybody with
Laser or Beta/VHS Hi-Fi will hear it instantly.

     The video work was rushed, and it shows.  There are a few
breaks, as if they used a theatre print instead of a virgin one.
Quite annoying is that the video version is just the center area of
the movie version; the sides are completely cut off.  No attempt was
made to pan from side to side to show the missing action (which was
done in both "Star Wars" and "Raiders" to great advantage).  This
"cut-off" probably improved the Yoda scenes, but in the space battle
scenes you lost much of the effect.

     In Laser, the movie breaks abruptly to make you change sides
just as Luke is about to enter the cave; they could have picked any
of several clean scene changes to place the break.  Laser is capable
of *much* higher video quality than Beta or VHS, but it didn't show
up in this print.  I saw a VHS version (a worst case video; Beta is
cleaner) in a video store; while the Laser version was better it
wasn't *that much* better.  It looks like they mastered for Beta/VHS
first and then did Laser as an afterthought.  By comparision, I
believe "Star Wars" was separately mastered for Laser.

     All in all, I think the work deserved a better job.  At $30 for
the Laser version, I'm not complaining too much; I've seen (and
paid) for worse.  At the obscene price of $80 for a Beta or VHS
version, I would be upset, especially since the Laser customers were
getting the same print (that would last forever) for $50 less.

-- Mark --

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #204
Date: 24 Nov 84 1605-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Nov 84 1605-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 24 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 204

Today's Topics:

              Books - The Flying Sorcerors (6 msgs) &
                      Comments on SF (3 msgs),
              Films - The Terminator (2 msgs),
              Videos - The Empire Strikes Back (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Aussiecon Two - 1985 Worldcon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 08:28:04 EST
From: "Cyril N. Alberga"
From: <ALBERGA.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Flying Sorcerors

Karen is probably Karen Anderson.

One of Piers Anthony's early works was a novel (which I have not
read, nor own) about a inter-stellar orthodontist, with (on the
paper back I have seen) an illustration showing a set of teeth large
enough that heavy contruction equipment is being used to repair
them.

Guess I'll have to find a copy of the book and join the name hunt.

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Nov 84 16:31:19-EST
From: Elizabeth J. Willey <ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: "The Flying Sorcerers"

The reference to Shoogar may be related to the battle Asimov had
with SUGAR: a diet in which he lost a bit of weight.  Poup may be
the Pope? a proponent of fertility.  And isn't there a writer of
Star Trek books (maybe other stuff I haven't seen too) called Sonya
something?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 84 12:10:02 PST (Tuesday)
From: Michael Tallan <Tallan.pa@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Cast of "Flying Sorcerers"

A few more comments and additions to the Flying Sorcerers list of
names, as summarized by Wasser and Trei:

      The Gods:
Blok, God of Violence - Robert Bloch  (author of "Psycho")
Tis'turzhin, God of Love - Ted Sturgeon  (read name as T. Sturgeon;
                 stories often based on love)
Pull'nissin, god of duels - Poul Anderson  (founder of SCA)

      Female natives:
Judy (could be -Lynn Del Rey, but more likely Merril)
Karen (Anderson, Poul's wife and also an author)
Sonya (can't quite remember the last name, but I think she's
published in F+SF.  Somebody could check issues from the '60s.)

The Teeth of Despair. A mountain range, with peaks like Critic's
Tooth and Viper's Bite. Ruled by the mad demon Peers, who 'gnashes
and gnarls mightily. He attacks natives and strangers alike.' -
could Peers just refer to a science fiction writer's fellow authors,
his peers, many of whom are also book reviewers (e.g., Budrys,
Sturgeon, Robinson, etc.)  and therefore on occasion harsh critics
of their works?

      Major characters:
Lant-la-lee-lay-ah-no (Lant) - the first two syllables of Lant's
name, Lant-la, are an anagram for Tallan, so clearly Gerrold and
Niven are referring to ME!  (If I repeat this several million times
I might even believe it myself.)

-- Michael Tallan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 1984 12:10:43 EST
From: "Wherever I go, there I am" <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet (Wherever I
From: go, there I am)@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: More on The Flying Sorcerors

    Here are a few more details on "The Flying Sorcerors":

1) Klarther is, indeed, Arthur C. Clarke.  The "skies and seas"
refers to the fact that, though he's known for his space-set sf,
several of his earlier novels (including The Deep Range, about
near-future farming under the sea) are ocean- based.  Also, he's an
avid skin diver, and has written about that topic in several forums;
it's this interest which caused him to move to Sri Lanka.

2) Tis'turzhin, God of Love, is Ted Sturgeon, who's written numerous
stories and novels on that topic in sf settings.

3) Peers, the demon who rules the Teeth of Despair, is Piers
Anthony.  The reference is to his short stories collected in the
book Prostho Plus (1971; stories were originally in IF in the late
sixties); they're tales of an interstellar dentist.

4) Tukker, God of Names, is Wilson Tucker, who, as a fan writer,
invented the tradition of using the names of fans and writers for
characters in novels; this process is known in fannish circles, as
"Tuckerization", and the names themselves as "Tuckerisms".

5) Yake, God of What-if, may be John W. Campbell (JWC -> Yake?),
once editor of Astounding (now known as Analog), who used to meet
with writers and give them story ideas in the form of "What if..."
questions.

6) Poup, God of Fertility, may be a reference to Fredric Pohl.  Or,
it may be a homonym for 'Pope'.

7) The womens' names are, as others have noted, those of female sf
writers and editors.  However, Judy is Judith Merrill, not Judy-Lynn
del Rey, who wasn't very well known when TFS was written.  Sonya is
Sonya Dorman, an American writer who's only published in the
magazines, to my recollection.  I suspect that Karen is Karen
Anderson, Poul's wife; she doesn't write sf, but is an active fan
and an old friend of Niven.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 21 Nov 84 10:03:02-EST
From: P. David Lebling <PDL@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #202

More on "Flying Sorcerers"; "Yake, the god of What-if" is probably
Ejlar Jacobsson, who was editor of Worlds of IF when the book was
serialized in it.
        Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Nov 84 10:50 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Name in "The Flying Sorcerors"

    Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 09:49:51 EST
    From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA>

         I think these are the last few still in dispute ("The
Flying Sorcerers"):

    Tis'turzhin, god of love -  Ted Sturgeon
    Pull'nissin, god of duels - Poul Anderson
    Peers, gnasher of teeth -   Piers Anthony
    Karen -                     Probably Karen Anderson
    Miriam -                    NOT Zimmer Bradley (that's Marion),
                                but I can't remember who it is
"Miriam" must be Miriam Allen DeFord, I think.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 15:54:06 EST
From: Ronald L. Singleton <rsingle@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Facts, Twisting of, in Science Fiction

  Now, Jeff (Rogers, in SFL Digest of 20 Nov), keeping facts
straight indeed!  Next thing, someone will declare that all FTL
drives should be banished because they are "impossible."  Unless
they keep up, that is, some scientist in South Africa is saying he
will soon publish a paper contending that FTL travel is possible.
He has said that "I will aver that an object travelling faster than
light will not travel backward in time and have negative mass."

  As for me, whether he is right or not I will continue reading
those "fantastic" suppositions (and possibly completely impossible -
wait, did I just write something that it is impossible to write??
-), because I read them for *enjoyment,* as do many others.  For
facts I can get Scientific American, Newsweek, or any one of
hundreds of other sources.

  Let's keep on keeping on!

Ron S.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 21 Nov 84 8:41:09 EST
Subject: Slow times at the idea factory

I imagine we'd all scream at each other a little less if we took
time to recall what each of us does this for--some read SF to get
their soap opera fix, others to find believable characters to swap
shoes with for awhile.  It's this sort of thing which led me to
despair of formal criticism years ago--hey, bottom line we like it
because we know what we like and this is it.  Poking holes in
sandworms falls flat for some people because they're interested in
the costume drama.

My First Commandment to SF authors has always been: Tell me
something I don't already know.  I have forgiven an awful lot of
very bad writing because behind it the man has come up with
something striking and original.  Hal Clement's writing runs from
middling to awful when one drops it on the scale of important
English prose, but he invented Mesklin, and I'm a sucker for oddball
planets.  Much the same goes for Larry Niven--back when he was
really producing, he was dropping original notions right and left,
which distracted from the fact that he doesn't do characters well.

It's been slim pickins for Clement and Niven lately, at least in
part because the sort of thing they do has become a lot more popular
in the last twenty years, and all the obvious and easy notions have
been done, sometimes to death.

It takes a good imagination and a lot of math to do really original
idea fiction these days.  Bob Forward is a TERRIBLE prose stylist,
but the guy can still tell me something I haven't heard
againandagainandagain, and for that reason I buy his books in
hardcover.

I expect a lot from David Brin, and so far he's done fairly well.
Greg Bear has his moments.  Benford is a rare treat.  It's HARD
doing that stuff.

It's all what you need from the printed page.  I picked up Darkover
Landfall when it first came out and tossed it against the wall.  Yet
another King Arthur on Mars story.  Others devour the stuff...

I want ideas.  You are welcome to King Arthur.

--Jeff Duntemann

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 84 11:04:44 PST (Wed)
Subject: Scrith indeed...
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-icsc>

>  "Scrith," indeed!  The existence of such a substance has
>  absolutely no foundation in current theory; it's utter fantasy!

        You know - that's what they said about the theory that the
sun was at the center of the solar system...

        That is the beauty of science fiction ( as in 'fiction') -
it allows the author to explore areas and ideas that are not
necessarily feasible (or are they? --- how do we know?).

                -- Greg
                   finnegan@uci-icsc

                The earth is really an inside out sphere, too.

------------------------------

To: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Terminator
Date: 21 Nov 84 20:00:46 EST (Wed)
From: Marshall Rose <mrose%udel-dewey.delaware@udel-relay.ARPA>

         Probably the least satisfying aspect of this film in SF
         terms is that it completely ignores the paradoxes inherent
         in "changing the past", e.g. Can the past be changed?  What
         will happen to the Terminator's future if he does succeed?
         Its nature as an action film leaves no room for such
         interesting speculations.

    Uh, I thought the ending tied it all rather nicely and resolved
    the paradox question.  I really can't say more without giving it
    all away, but note that the soldier from the future said he was
    from one of "many possible futures".

    Also, for an ironic laugh, listen to the message on the
    protagonist's phone recorder.  Anyway, "Terminator" is a pretty
    good film (I'd call it "great"), it had me in stitches for most
    of the evening.

    I saw "Night of the Comet" a couple of nights ago.  Not bad,
    liked it quite a bit.  Micro plot summary:

         Every 60 million years or so this comet goes through our
         solar system.  Although it doesn't hit Earth, we go right
         through its tail one evening.  Incidentally, the last time
         this happened the dinosaurs became extinct.  A few people
         are lucky/smart enough to shield themselves that fateful
         night.  They survive.  The others, well, most are lucky,
         some aren't.
/mtr

------------------------------

Date: Thu 22 Nov 84 00:22:43-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
Subject: The Terminator (slight spoiler)

                        ** slight spoiler **

        A friend of mine recently went to see 'The Terminator'
starring Arnold Schwarzeneggar (sp?), and came back with an
interesting tidbit of information; It seems that the cyborg who is
played by AS was made by Apple, or at least has the brains of a
microcomputer. At times we see the world from the androids point of
veiw. It is oddly tinted, and there are 'meaningless' printouts
scrolling across the field of vision.
        The printouts are not quite meaningless: they are source
code for the 6502 microprocessor which is used by the Apple ][ line
among others; in fact the particular listings involved appeared in
Nybble, an Apple magazine.
        Maybe Schwarzeneggar's character is also trying to kill the
inventor of the IBM-PC...
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 20 Nov 1984 21:02:08-PST
From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: The Empire Strikes Back, so return it

Earlier I reported that the Beta copy of The Empire Strikes Back I
purchased was defective.  Apparently this defect was not universal.
My dealer received replacement copies without the defect.  So, if
you buy one, it will probably be ok, but make sure you can exchange
it if you have to.

Mark Crispin said that the sound on his laserdisc copy of TESB was
"tinny"; I didn't notice this as a problem, though the treble was a
bit brighter, no doubt due to the digital mastering.  The picture
looked very good to me, though; I do have a high-quality monitor.
The Star Wars tape, on the other hand, was mediocre in both picture
and sound.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 21 Nov 1984 09:21-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Cc: mrc@su-score
Subject: EMIPRE STRIKES BACK ON LASER DISK

        I too have bought TESB on laser disc and was not pleased at
all.  First, I am positive that the soundtrack for the first five
minutes or so (at least) has been totally altered (not the same
music that is in the screen version). Second, and most important, I
found that in order for CBS/FOX to fit the entire movie on to one
disc, they recorded the movie at a slightly faster speed than
normal. This is very noticeable when C3PO and Yoda speak, their
voices are abnormally high. I first thought it was me, but when I
saw the running time of 120 minutes it confirmed my suspicions
(maximum play time for a laser disc is 60 minutes per side). Mark,
could you pass on to me the adress (and phone) of CBS/FOX - I'd also
like a word with them! I would have gladly paid the extra money for
the thing done right!

        This isn't the first SF flick that has been butchered. My
copy of ALIEN has about 5 minutes of footage missing. I also hear
that there is a version of STAR WARS out with an extra five minutes
added. I don't really see the justification for all this. It makes
for dissatisfied customers.

------------------------------

From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Date: Wed Nov 14 22:08:26 1984
Subject: Aussiecon Two - 1985 Worldcon
Cc: cracraft@sri-tsca.ARPA

The following is taken from the Aussiecon 2 ad on page 47 of the LA
con II program book:

Aussiecon Two
43rd world science fiction convention
Southern Cross Hotel, Melbourne, Australia
22-26 August 1984

Gene Wolfe, Pro Guest of Honor (excuse me... "Honour")
Ted White, Fan Guest of Honour

Memberships and info by mail -
US Funds cheque payable to Aussiecon Two, contact:

Fred Patten
11863 West Jefferson Blvd
Culver City, CA 90230

Other US info addresses:

Joyce Scrivner                              Jan Howard Finder
2732 - 14th Avenue South Lower              P.O. Box 428
Minneapolis, MN 55404                       Latham, NY 12110

The reason for this unscheduled emulation of SF-CONS-LIST is that
it's NOT TOO EARLY to think about charter flights and suchlike.  I'm
not sure enough of my own plans to offer to organize a list on this
topic, but I'll bet there might be enough of us come next spring to
get a good rate out of San Francisco (hint, hint) or L.A. ... Stay
tuned.
                                Michael C. Berch
                                mcb@lll-tis.ARPA
                                ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #205
Date: 26 Nov 84 1201-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Nov 84 1201-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 205

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams ( 3 msgs) & Asimov (7 msgs) &
                    Padgett & Palmer (2 msgs) & 
                    Van Vogt (2 msgs) &
                    The Flying Sorceror (2 msgs),
            Films - Buckaroo Banzai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: louie@umd5.UUCP
Subject: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The Fish
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 20:22:25 MST

Well, Douglas Adams was here at the University of Maryland tonight,
along with copies of his new book "So Long, And Thanks For All The
Fish", the fourth book in the The Hitchhiker's Trilogy.  I have the
hardcover edition in my hot little hands at this moment, and can't
wait to start.

During the two hours that he was here, he mentioned that production
of the MOVIE version of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy is due
to begin in the first half of 1985.  He also said to watch for The
Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy VIDEO GAME to appear in the next
few weeks. (Just in time for Christmas).

It was a weird, wonderful couple of hours with Douglas Adams.. he
did a number of readings from The Restaurant At The End Of The
Universe and Life, The Universe And Everything.  What a guy!

Louis A. Mamakos
Computer Science Center - Systems Programming
Univ. of Maryland.

------------------------------

From: eric@milo.UUCP (Eric Bergan)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The
Subject: Fish
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 07:48:17 MST

        Douglas Adams has just releases HHGTTG in yet another form -
that of a computer adventure. When I first saw the Infocom ads, I
figured they had just bought the rights to it. But lo and behold,
when I got it it shows Douglas Adams as author (and the manual was
definitely written by him). I have not started it yet, but a blurb
in the manual states that having read the books will help only in
the early going, the rest is all new.  Looks like another wacky
first from Adams.
                                eric
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric

------------------------------

From: gmp@rayssd.UUCP
Subject: New R.Adams: one line review
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 06:25:53 MST

"So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish":  wait for the paperback.

------------------------------

From: gmp@rayssd.UUCP
Subject: Robots of Dawn
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 11:13:50 MST

For those of you that don't know, "The Robots of Dawn" by Asimov is
now out in paperback.  For those of you that haven't read it, I
recommend it.  However, I recommend that you don't read the hype on
or near the covers--at least until you're half-way through the book.

Gregory M. Paris     {allegra,ccice5,decvax!brunix,linus}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

From: recovert@ihuxf.UUCP (recovert)
Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 07:53:46 MST

I just started reading the Robots Of Dawn by Asimov. The book
appears to be ONE LONG story about a human detective investigating
the *death* of an intelligent robot. After ~100 pages, I keep
expecting the human detective to discover who killed the robot. My
biggest complaint is that the story topic seems more suited to a
short story then a 300 page novel. Asimov spends to much time trying
to develope an alternate world (Aurora) in order to solve the crime.

Richard E. Covert (312) 979-4428 ihuxf!recovert (BTL,Indian Hill)

------------------------------

From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag)
Subject: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>  **SPOILER!**
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 10:59:28 MST

> I just started reading the Robots Of Dawn by Asimov. The book
> appears to be ONE LONG story about a human detective investigating
> the *death* of an intelligent robot. After ~100 pages, I keep
> expecting the human detective to discover who killed the robot. My
> biggest compliant

A couple other things bothered me too:

    1.)  The robot that was killed was a 'humaniform' robot, and
         much of the plot hinges on the fact that no one except one
         particular roboticist can make a humaniform robot.  But
         later on, we find out that the only real difference between
         a regular robot and a humaniform robot is that the h.
         robots, as the name suggests, have a very human appearance.
         Way back in 2300, or so, long before this story takes place
         in Asomov's robot universe, there was a robot which became
         humaniform by upgrading himself.

     2.) One possibility, which the detective didn't even
         investigate, was suicide.  He carefully eliminated many
         more unlikely alternatives than this one, even though the
         robot had a great motive for suicide.  (his continued
         existence could have been construed as causing 'harm' to
         his HUMAN lover.  By the first law of robotics, I don't see
         why it would be unreasonable to suspect that he had offed
         himself.)

   All in all, not *too* bad, though it certainly would have been
better if it had been about half as long.

Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxl!mhuxt!js2j

p.s. For extra credit, what was the name of the robot who became a
     man, the name of the book, and the year in which it occured?

------------------------------

From: ted@usceast.UUCP (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn -> -> tieins
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 14:03:13 MST

js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) writes:
>
>Jeff Sonntag
>ihnp4!mhuxl!mhuxt!js2j
>
>p.s. For extra credit, what was the name of the robot who became a
>man, the name of the book, and the year in which it occured?

I beleive it was in 2076 and the robots name was something Martin
(he is mentioned in the Robots of Dawn) . I think the book was The
Bicentenial Man.

I've noticed that in his most recent 2 SF books Asimov is starting
to tie a large body of his work into one universe. In _Foundations
Edge_ he brings in the robots (and why there are no more) and
"eternity" from _The End of Eternity_ and the planet from
"Misbegotten Missionary" .  In _The Robots of Dawn_, he shows the
robots making the decision that they are bad for humanity and tells
why the second wave of outmigration from Earth leaves the Spacer
worlds alone and forgotten by the time of the First Empire.

What I want to know is how he will explain the Earth's becoming
radioactive.  It is not so in Bayley's time, but it is in _The Stars
Like Dust_ (which takes place before the First Empire, but after the
settlement of Trantor) Any ideas?  And for that matter, why the
compulsion to tie everything together. (And where does _Pebble in
the Sky_ go ,if anywhere? (Wasn't the snaypsifer mentioned in
_Foundations Edge_ ? ) )

Ted Nolan                    ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle        ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206
     ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")

------------------------------

From: red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth)
Subject: Re: Answer to extra-credit question
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 84 19:47:04 MST

The name of the robot was Andrew, and it was in "The Bicentennial
Man" It's an excellent story, by the way. Asimov at his second best.

Asimov at his first best is his limericks

                        Red

------------------------------

From: jagardner@watmath.UUCP (jagardner)
Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn -> -> tieins
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 09:58:58 MST

One of the great strengths and weaknesses of SF is how much it is a
literature of ideas.  Of course there are many authors who also
handle character, plot, and language well, but there are a large
number of SF writers who simply come up with interesting ideas and
write cardboard characters and plots as an excuse to present the
ideas.

Given this, tie-ins make a good deal more sense in SF than in many
other genres.  When a book is written in some other genre, it
follows a character or a story and ends when the character has
passed some significant turning point or when the story comes to an
end.  In SF, on the other hand, things aren't so cleanly tied off.
Characters may die or pass their turning point, and stories may end,
but the ideas go on.  They also go on percolating in the author's
mind and also in the minds of fans who may suggest new ideas to the
author.  At any rate, the ideas spawn new ideas and eventually one
gets spin-off novels and stories.  It doesn't hurt that the
SF-buying public encourages this trend by clamouring for sequels and
by gobbling up books that are related to previous scenarios.

Furthermore, there is the pure intellectual challenge of tying a set
of ideas together.  This makes for a sort of meta-idea that appeals
greatly to the average SF writer.  Remember that SF writers often
have strong science backgrounds and that one of the foremost goals
of scientists is to tie a large number of observations together into
a single simple system.  The same impulse leads writers to strive to
tie everything together into one glorious consistency.  Most readers
(me included) also enjoy this tying together, even though it's
annoying if you haven't read all the preceding books.  To paraphrase
Hannibal on the A-Team, "I love it when a universe comes together."

                    Jim Gardner, UW Software Development Group

------------------------------

From: mcdonald@smu.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>  *
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 09:55:00 MST

But are you sure that the U.S. Robots stories (I think TBM was one
of these) are in the same future history as Elijah Bailey?  They
don't seem at all consistent, largely for the reason you mentioned
-- robots are _not_ commonplace in inhabited areas, while they
became commonplace in the USRobots world in the early 21st century.

The Three Laws are held in common, but in Bailey's world they are
credited to an ancient philosopher whose name is a mangling of
Asimov, with the implication that they were formulated long before
they had any practical application.  I am not sure, but I believe
they were actually arrived at by the roboticists preceding USRobots.

If anyone knows of any evidence in the Bailey books that they do
coexist with USR, please post references.  The mention of ancient
Asimov is in _The_Caves_of_Steel_, during the interview with the
Earth roboticist.

(TBM stretched over 200 years, of course, starting in 2076.)

                                                     Mc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 06:32:27 pst
From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: Lewis Padgett story hunt

I am looking for a Lewis Padgett story "Mimsy Were the Borogoves".
Does anyone out there know where I could find this -- has it been
printed in a collection recently or something?

        Please reply directly -- don't clog the digest....

                                        der Mouse

{decvax,ihnp4,etc.}!uw-beaver!utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

From: ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241)
Subject: _Emergence_
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 09:14:48 MST

_Emergence_ by David R. Palmer

        I finally got a chance to find out what happened to Candida.
She was introduced in a novella in Analog.  There was a followup
story almost a year later.  David Palmer's novel has those two
connected stories as the first two chapters of the novel.  That is
about 1/6 of the novel.  It is very much worth buying.  I bought it
yesterday afternoon and finished it in one sitting.  I will reread
probably this weekend.  It is an after-the-holocast-with-the-New-Man
novel but very well done.  Candida (Candy,of course) is a new person
and survives.  She is eleven.  That's all the spoiler I will give.
Palmer uses a type of shorthand prose that is quite short on
articles, conjunctions and prepositions.  It is understandable.
Candida's narrative is funny and serious.  READ IT!

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

From: ishizaki@saturn.UUCP (Audrey Ishizaki)
Subject: Re: _Emergence_
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 00:41:40 MST

I, too, read _Emergence_ by David Palmer in both Analog and in the
recently released novel form.  I liked it, on the whole, but thought
that the protagonist, Candy Smith-Foster, like Jean Auel's (_Clan of
the Cave Bear_, _The Valley of Horses_) character Ayla, was a bit
Too Remarkable.

It's worth reading, but I felt the promise of the first chapter
(which was presented as a novella in Analog) was not lived up to.

Audrey Ishizaki
HPlabs
Palo Alto, Ca           ...ucbvax!hplabs!ishizaki

------------------------------

From: seetha@wateng.UUCP (Selvaraj SEETHARAMAN)
Subject: Sequel to Slan by A.E. van Vogt
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 13:53:29 MST

 Has anyone ever heard of a sequel to the book by A.E. van Vogt
named above.  In case you don't get the correct header the title is
SLAN.
 Thanks for any help you can provide.

------------------------------

From: jdb@qubix.UUCP (Jeff Bulf)
Subject: Re: Sequel to Slan by A.E. van Vogt
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 17:15:52 MST

> Has anyone ever heard of a sequel to the book by A.E. van Vogt
> named above.  In case you don't get the correct header the title
> is SLAN.  Thanks for any help you can provide.

    A sequel to SLAN?!!! Please post this one, or at least mail me a
copy.  vanVogt at his most human was a real pleasure.

        Dr Memory
        ...{amd,ucbvax,ihnp4}!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

From: west@utcsrgv.UUCP (Thomas L. West)
Subject: The Flying Sorcerors - Shoogar.
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 13:09:29 MST

  The pun on Shoogar is fairly obvious if you read the passages
involving him out loud, especially to the uninitiated.  The idea of
all of these people calling an important sorceror Shoogar which when
read becomes Sugar can be reasonably amusing.

   Tom West
 { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!west

------------------------------

From: msj@gitpyr.UUCP (Mike St. Johns)
Subject: Re: Re: Flying Sorcerers
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 20:33:33 MST

jeff1@garfield.UUCP (Jeff Sparkes) writes:
>> rcmcc@whuxi.UUCP (MC_CONNELL) writes:
>> >If I remember correctly, the natives kept
>> >referring to the lead character as "Purple."
>> >
>> >  "Purple" <- As-i-mauve <- Asimov
>> >
>> >is my interpretation.
>>
>> Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine
>> renders his name in the lanuguage of the natives of the planet
>> as:
>> "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun.
>       And of course, Asimov loves a good ( or bad ) pun!!!
>

Sorry to correct you, but the quote was:

 "As a color, shade of purple-gray"
 Mike.

Mike St. Johns
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!msj

------------------------------

From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins)
Subject: Re: Re: Buckaroo Banzai, Babysitter
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 20:08:43 MST

>    It's good to see your old babysitter on the silver screen...
>...  After "Firstborn", boasting that he was your babysitter may be
>something of a claim to bravery... :-)

Yeah, he's the meanest looking person with blue eyes I've ever seen.
When I saw this flick last night, I kept thinking about how he would
babysit.  He got to kick the crap out of Albert Finney in "Shoot the
Moon," too, (not that Finney didn't deserve it at that (or any
other) point).  It's going to interesting to watch the way Hollywood
deals with Weller over the next year or too.  He seems to bring a
lot of quiet intensity to his parts.  Also, after seeing "Red Dawn"
and "Firstborn," I think I've come up for what PG13 means:
  "Well, we didn't really do anything to get an 'R,' rating, but you
really don't want your young kids to see this flick."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #206
Date: 26 Nov 84 1311-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Nov 84 1311-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 206

Today's Topics:

       Books - Brin (6 msgs) & Clarke & Saberhagen (2 msgs) &
               Spinrad (5 msgs),
       Television - Tales From the Dark Side (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dcmartin@ucbvax.ARPA (David C. Martin)
Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 01:33:33 MST

I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation as
well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of the
same subject.  (I will grant you that I did not read the entire
novel, so no flames please!)  I have picked up a novel on
recommendation that I found of the same style.  (Not uplift, but
writing) It is called The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester and was
the winner of the first Hugo.  I would highly recommend it to anyone
who liked David Brin's style.

------------------------------

From: kevin@voder.UUCP (worthless scum)
Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 20:50:35 MST

> Has anybody read STARTIDE RISING, SUNDIVER, and THE PRACTICE
> EFFECT by David Brin?  I found the books (especially STARTIDE
> RISING) to be captivating and deep (sorry about the pun, Brin
> fans.)  Has / is he writing anything new?  I anxiously await the
> reopening of the door into the Brin universe.  Has any one else
> thought of "uplifting" dolphins?
> Eric Novikoff tesla!novikoff@cornell.arpa

   STARTIDE RISING won a Hugo for best science-fiction novel for
1983.  Before we start uplifting dolphins we'd better start
uplifting some humans ( :-) ?).

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin
"It's sort of a threat, you see.  I've never been very good at them
  myself but I'm told they can be very effective."

------------------------------

From: asente@Cascade.ARPA
Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 18:04:50 MST

> I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation
> as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of
> the same subject.

It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same
"future history" as the first two.  There are several references in
The Practice Effect that indicate that the world in which the
beginning takes place is the same earth where Sundiver takes place.

        -paul asente
Practice makes perfect.

------------------------------

From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 23:01:52 MST

> > I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation
> > as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of
> > the same subject.
>
> It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same
> "future history" as the first two.  There are several references
> in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world in which the
> beginning takes place is the same earth where Sundiver takes
> place.
>       -paul asente

I've read all three.  Where?

        Ray Chen
        princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

From: asente@Cascade.ARPA
Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 15:35:42 MST

>>> I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation
>>> as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of
>>> the same subject.
>>
>> It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same
>> "future history" as the first two.  There are several references
>> in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world in which the
>> beginning takes place is the same earth where Sundiver takes
>> place.
>>      -paul asente
>
> I've read all three.  Where?
>
>       Ray Chen
>       princeton!tilt!chenr

The Practice Effect, page 17:
"I've made a real neat picture of the launch tower in Ecuador!  You
know, the Vanilla Needle?"

        -paul asente

------------------------------

From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 84 14:33:10 MST

> >> It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same
> >> "future history" as the first two.  There are several
> >> references in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world
> >> in which the beginning takes place is the same earth where
> >> Sundiver takes place.
> >>    -paul asente
> The Practice Effect, page 17:
> "I've made a real neat picture of the launch tower in Ecuador!  You
> know, the Vanilla Needle?"

So they both have a launch tower in Ecuador.  Big deal.  Ecuador is
one of the obvious places to put one of those things.  You're
missing the fact that there are things in the Practice Effect which
make its universe incompatible with that of Sundiver and Startide
Rising.

        1) The ziev effect, which is the whole reason behind the
           events in the Practice Effect.  While the Galactic races
           in Sundiver/Startide Rising possess probability-altering
           stardrives, nobody has anything like the zievatron.  The
           ziev effect supposedly became one of the two major facets
           of human civilization.

        2) The large number of human-colonized planets and the
           conspicuous absence of any mention of the Galactics, plus
           the fact that the human race uses genetically engineered,
           intelligent animals in the place of machines.  This in
           itself is totally incompatible with the spirit behind
           Uplift.

        Ray Chen
        princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

Date: Fri 23 Nov 84 12:24:08-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Clarke's Law

Every knows that Clarke's Law goes:

A sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.

I wonder, though, if anyone has ever noted the logical converse,
which goes:

A sufficiently degraded magic is indistinguishable from science.

I wouldn't want to claim to have originated someone else's
apothegm....

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: dave@uwvax.UUCP (Dave Cohrs)
Subject: Swords Books -- availability update
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 23:53:15 MST

A new edition of Saberhagens Books of Swords is available.  I am a
member of the 'Science Fiction Book Club' and was pleased
(ecstatic?)  to see that this month's selection was a 3-in-1 set of
the books.  Needless to say, I'm getting this selection.  So, all of
you who want to read the 2nd book, quick.... join up!

Dave Cohrs
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!dave
dave@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

From: ttb@ihuxn.UUCP (Thomas T. Butler)
Subject: Question about "Book of Swords"
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 07:05:23 MST

The latest offering of the SFBC is "The Complete Book of Swords" (3
books in one) by Fred Saberhagen.  In spite of my 35 years as an
avid Science Fiction fan, I am not familiar with this author or any
of the "Sword" books.  The brochure makes them sound very exciting,
but before plunking down $9.32 I would appreciate hearing from
someone who has read one or more of these books.  How about it?  Can
anyone give me a review?  Positive or negative comments would be
appreciated by mail or post.

                          Thanks in advance,
                           Tom Butler
                           ..!ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb

------------------------------

From: rik@uf-csg.UUCP (Rik Faith [guest])
Subject: Carcinoma Angels
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 17:24:24 MST

Several years ago I read a short story by that title (Carcinoma
Angels) about a guy who got cancer and cured himself by taking a
weird concoction of drugs.  I don't know who it's by or in what
anthology it appears.  If anybody out there knows who wrote this
story, or where I can find a copy, please send mail.  Thanks in
advance.

Rik Faith, student at the University of Florida, Gainesville
UUCP: ..!akgua!uf-csv!uf-csg!rik
[Is not life a hundred times to short for us to bore ourselves?
-F.N.]

------------------------------

From: herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 10:53:07 MST

I think that it was in Dangerous Visions, or was it Again, Dangerous
Visions, edited by Harlan Ellison.  I could be wrong, since I don't
have all my books with me at school.

Herb Chong...

I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
BITNET: herbie at watdcs,herbie at watdcsu

------------------------------

From: rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec (Vombatus Hirsutus))
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 12:57:16 MST

It's in "Dangerous Visions", edited by Harlan Ellison.

It's a great tongue-in-cheek short about Harrison Wintergreen,
who found that the world was his oyster when he looked at it sideways.

---Rsk

UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!rsk
      { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk

------------------------------

From: consult@uwmacc.UUCP (MACC Consultants)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 22:28:22 MST

Rik Faith writes:
>Several years ago I read a short story by that title (Carcinoma
>Angels) about a guy who got cancer and cured himself by taking a
>weird concoction of drugs.  I don't know who it's by or in what
>anthology it appears.  If anybody out there knows who wrote this
>story, or where I can find a copy, please send mail.  Thanks in
>advance.

The story was written by Norman Spinrad.  He's also the author of
THe Iron Dream, which says on the cover that it was written by
Adolph Hitler. (to be explained) And he wrote at least one episode
of Star Trek.

Several years ago, Norman Spinrad came to speak to a science fiction
class that I was taking. After the class, several of us went to the
Union to have a beer with him.  Someone asked him why there were
motorcycle riders in many of his stories (including Carcinoma Angles
and the Iron Dream).  He said that he had spent a lot of time with
some motorcycle gangs in California. He had some friends in the
gangs, and they would sometimes show up at his house and invite him
somewhere. He didn't dare offend them and not go, so he would
sometimes disappear with them for several days.

About The Iron Dream: According to the cover, it was written by
Adolph Hitler. In the introduction, Spinrad says that Hitler
'dabbled in radical politics' in Germany, got frustrated, and moved
to the U. S. in the early 30's, and began to write science fiction,
including THe Iron Dream.

Spinrad told us that he wrote the book by immersing (sp?) himself in
everything Hitler had written, and everything written about him.
(Including a 600 page book titled 'Hitler's Dinner conversations')
He finished the book just in time for Mardi Gras, and got Hitler out
of his system by going to New Orleans and partying for several days.

I still have my copy of THe Iron Dream, which he autographed
'adolph Hitler'.
                                      Sue Brunkow
                                 U Wisconsin - MACC

                  ...{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmacc!consult
          (please put my name on any mail, I share this login.)

------------------------------

From: markv@dartvax.UUCP (Mark Vita)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 11:58:27 MST

> The story was written by Norman Spinrad.  He's also the author of
> THe Iron Dream, which says on the cover that it was written by
> Adolph Hitler. (to be explained) And he wrote at least one episode
> of Star Trek.

   Yes, the Star Trek episode he wrote was "The Doomsday Machine".

                                Mark Vita
                                Dartmouth College

USENET:  {decvax,cornell,linus,astrovax}!dartvax!markv
ARPA:    markv%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:   markv@dartmouth

------------------------------

From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Subject: New fantasy series - Tales from the DARK SIDE
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 22:00:00 MST

Has anybody else been seeing this show?  It seems to be like a
modern Twilight Zone.  While the quality varies, some of the stories
are quite good and have well-known actors.  They say they were done
in 1984, yet the local NBC affiliate is showing them monday nights
at 1:30 am, after Letterman.  Does anybody else know anything about
this series?

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: Re: TALES FROM THE DARK SIDE (reposting)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 09:25:16 MST

Comments previously posted by Mark R. Leeper:

> TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE is an anthology series produced by George
> Romero (of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD fame).  It is syndicated to
> any local station who wants to fill a half hour here and there.
> It had a shaky but interesting pilot about a year ago, with an
> episode entitled "Trick or Treat."  This time around the series
> opener is called "I'll Give a Million."  I expected it to leave me
> yearning for the old TWILIGHT ZONEs I grew up with.  Well, the
> story might have been better compared to Alfred Hitchcock's old
> half-hour show--it's more his style--but I'll give "I'll Give a
> Million" is a better story than most of Serling's fare.  It
> concerns two wealthy, ruthless old codgers--a la TRADING
> PLACES--who have been pulling shady deals for a long time.
> Unexpectedly, one offers the other one million dollars for his
> soul.  Since neither is particularly religious, it sounds like a
> good deal.  Or is it?

> Well, what can I tell you?  I used to call TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED
> "Tales of the Totally Predictable" but this story did keep me
> guessing what was going on.  There is something I like a lot about
> the last five minutes or so, but to say anything about it would
> rule out one or more of about five or six possible courses for the
> plot.  I don't want to do that so somebody (please!)  who has seen
> it, talk (write) to me about it so I can tell you what I liked.
> Nice going, Mr.  Romero.  Nice touch at the end.  It shows you are
> more than just a horror story fan.

> TV fantasy was good in the golden old days: the days of the first
> couple of seasons of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, the first and maybe the
> second season of STAR TREK, but even that was pretty spotty.  This
> is another of those golden years it seems, because TALES FROM THE
> DARKSIDE so far has had more good episodes than bad.  NIGHTMARES,
> had it sold, would have had at least three good episodes.  The
> best shows were very good in the old days, just like the best of
> British television is pretty good.  But that does not mean that
> the average show from Britain of the 1950's was all that good.  It
> may be that the highs are not as good.  The best of TALES FROM THE
> DARKSIDE may not affect us like the best of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, but
> then series lasted longer in those days.

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: TALES FROM THE DARK SIDE (reposting)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 84 08:07:32 MST

I ran across one of the DARK SIDE episodes a week or so ago, having
stayed up unusually late. I watched it, after seeing the credits,
because the writer was Harlan Ellison. Unfortunately, I guess it was
late enough that my memory circuits were non-functional; I cannot
recall anything other than that fact about the episode. A clue will
probably bring it all back. I have the general impression that it
was fairly good, though.

Will

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #207
Date: 26 Nov 84 1423-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Nov 84 1423-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 207

Today's Topics:

        ****** SPECIAL HARLAN ELLISON ISSUE - PART I ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: isiw@druri.UUCP (WattIS)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 08:58:21 MST

Well, I for one agree with the previous. If I read one more
Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-
blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going to be ill. The guy has *no*
understanding of the word "subtlety". His idea of compassion is
maudlin sentimentality and shameless pandering to the popular swings
of fandom. And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got
a writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break! He's a
hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a young hack who
made it early enough so nobody wants to call him a hack, and now all
the sf types who try to hold up an example of science fiction's
literary legitimacy use *Harlan Ellison* as their shining example
and give everyone who reads serious novels a good laugh. What a joke
- the guy's been living in Hollywood too long, he finally believes
all the nice things everybody says about him because they wouldn't
know great writing if it came up and bit 'em.

But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, Barry
B.  Longyear, Anne McCaffrey (oh, those dragons are just *so*
cute!). Meanwhile, mainstream fiction has Martin Cruz Smith, Mark
Halprin, geez - even Rosemary Rogers writes better than they do!
Wake up! Neat ideas and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions
don't make up for bad characterization, weak plots, and no character
development, no matter *how* many tribbles you strew around.

If it wasn't for Gene Wolfe and Orson Scott Card holding up a mirror
to the rest of their peers, the level would be even worse than it
was in the alleged "Golden Age". These two are all that stands
between sf and mediocre garbage, though you might include the
new-improved Robert Silverberg if you were being charitable.

Davis Tucker
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO

P.S. - Stephen R. Donaldson is a hack, too.

------------------------------

From: render@uiucdcs.UUCP
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 12:02:00 MST

Regarding the recent note concerning the "morbidity" and lack of
humanity of Harlan Ellison, I find it hard to believe that anyone
who has read any fair share of his work could question his feeling
for people.  Admittedly some of his stories are grim (i.e. "I Have
No Mouth And I Must Scream") and most exhibit a cynical view of the
human race, but it obviously stems from his deep concern for the
poor way in which we present ourselves as a supposedly wise and
caring species.  Such works as "Jeffty is Five" and "Repent!
Harlequin, Cried the Ticktockman" are warm, funny and supremely
humane, while still challenging us to better ourselves.  I would
much rather read the works of a man who dares us to be what we
should, as opposed to the stories of many authors who merely
congratulate us on being such a grand folk.

                                  Comments, anyone?

                                  Hal Render
                                  U. of Illinois
                                  (uiucdcsb!render)

------------------------------

From: mwm@ea.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 13:22:00 MST

I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved
morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you.  Personally, I would
rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of
humanness somewhere in it.

"Looking for Kadak" (sp?) terminally depressing unrelieved morbidness?

Much of what Ellison writes is depressing, but *all* of it makes me
think.  I like that; that's why I like Ellison.

        <mike

------------------------------

From: mikevp@proper.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 12:54:40 MST

ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241) writes:
>It is much more enlightening and fun to read his (Ellison's)
>commentary on just about anything.  His acerbic wit makes his prose
>on any subject enjoyable to read even if it pisses you off.  It
>makes you think as well.

I certainly agree with that.  My comments were strictly aimed at
Ellison's fiction.  A friend gave me a copy of a book of his short
stories, saying "Here's his least depressing stuff" (She really
liked Ellison), and they were as morbid as the rest of his stuff
that I dislike.  However, I did enjoy his introductions to the
stories, and I have liked his nonfiction, such as his articles about
his misadventures in TV land.

------------------------------

From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins)
Subject: Re: RE: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 20:22:41 MST

I've seen him speak twice in the last few years, and he is an
incredibly dynamic speaker.  I also had the rare 'treat' of eating
dinner with him the last time he was here.  Well, let's just say
this: having met him in person and spent time in a social situation,
I'd be more content to continue reading his stuff than I would to be
counted among his close personal friends.  Oh, well.  I was a bit
disappointed, but that's life.  I still find his writing to be the
stuff that has what it takes.

From the article...
>I also highly recommend The Glass Teat/The Other Glass Teat for
>biting,

Sorry, but the fact that this line ended at the point it did really
got to me....

------------------------------

From: yteitz@aecom.UUCP (Yosef Teitz)
Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 21:27:45 MST

> I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved
> morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you.  Personally, I would
> rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of
> humanness somewhere in it.

If you want humanity...try his stories:

1.  Looking for Kadak--in Approaching Oblivion
2.  The 3 Most Important Things in My Life--in Stalking the Nightmare.

If you want others...just ask.
                        yair griver...
                                logging on as yteitz @ aecom

------------------------------

From: hsut@ecn-ee.UUCP
Subject: Ellison and 'I Have No Mouth...'
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 22:27:02 MST

          I enjoy a fair amount of Ellison's work, and also detest a
lot of it. Ellison is more subtle than many people think (though he
has also written stories that are gimmicky and less than inspiring).
What no one has pointed out yet about "I Have No Mouth and I Must
Scream" is the POINT of VIEW of the narrator, which changes the tone
of the story entirely.
          In an essay Ellison wrote about "I Have No Mouth..." (I
don't remember where it was published --- should be easily
available) the author stressed that the narrator used to be a
compassionate and generous person. It is this compassionate nature
that the computer warped and distorted, just as it had mutilated the
other human survivors in more obvious ways. The story is cold, cruel
and morbid because WE SEE IT THROUGH THE NARRATOR'S DISTORTED
VIEWPOINT. It is an expression of the cynical and cruel personality
generated by the computer in the narrator.
          There is more to Ellison than unrelieved gloom and
pessimism. Try "Jefty Is Five" and "Paingod" for beautiful, human
stories.
                           Bill Hsu
                           pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

From: chabot@amber.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 13:43:46 MST

Davis Tucker  ==  >
> He's a hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a young
> hack who made it early enough so nobody wants to call him a hack,
> ...

"Young"?  Well, maybe "young at heart"?

> What a joke - the guy's been living in Hollywood too long, ...

"Hollywood"?  Actually, it's Sherman Oaks.

> But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin,
> Barry B.  Longyear, Anne McCaffrey ...  Neat ideas and far-off
> worlds and fantastic expostions don't make up for bad
> characterization, weak plots, and no character development, no
> matter *how* many tribbles you strew around.

"Tribbles"?  As far as I know, David Gerrold is the only one who's
written about tribbles, and his name's not in that list up there.
Perhaps you have the wrong Star Trek episode in mind.

> If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-
> likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going
> to be ill.

Gee, I've read all the Harlan Ellison books I could lay my eyes on,
and I've never come across one of these stories.  Anybody have any
references?

> And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got a
> writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break!

Whatever the reasons for the delay are, are we to assume that you,
David, have experience in producing anthologies?  Or have you at
least seen anthologies such as DV and ADV which do involve an amount
of writing on the part of the editor?

> ...he finally believes all the nice things everybody says about him
> The guy has *no* understanding of the word "subtlety". His idea of
> compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless pandering to
> the popular swings of fandom.

Weird.  The usual line is that people say nasty things about Harlan
Ellison (usually in fun, though).  But of all the nasty things I've
heard "maudlin sentimentality" and "pandering" were never among
them.

Did I miss something?  Was that letter supposed to be a joke, or what?

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: bes@drutx.UUCP
Subject: Harlan Ellison
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 09:11:30 MST

Now that all you Ellison fans have come out of the closet so to
speak, I have a question for you.  I have heard that the novel upon
which the movie A_Boy_and_His_Dog is based was written by Ellison.
The book has a rather bizarre title that I can never seem to
remember correctly, something like: Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_
Sheep?.  Can anyone help me?  Please email your replies.  I'll post
the answer to the net (these multiple answers are making my n-finger
grow callus).

        Bruce Sizer
        Denver, CO

------------------------------

From: ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: RE: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 11:04:24 MST

Re: Harlan Ellison stories guaranteed not to depress you.

Don't forget "I'm Looking For Kadak," to be found in Jack Dann's
"Wandering Stars" collection. Kadak has to be the funniest Jewish
extraterrestrial ever conceived.

Ariel (So why am I talking to a butterfly?) Shattan
..!tektronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

From: jdb@qubix.UUCP (Jeff Bulf)
Subject: Re: Ellison
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 17:11:28 MST

Just a note here...

    In all the talk lately about Ellison, I'm a little surprised
that nobody has mentioned _A Boy and His Dog_. Ellison's strengths
are at their best in that one with the offbeat-but-deep friendship,
and the gross violence that he does to the "Hollywood Happy Ending"
is in the league with Blazing Saddles' assault on western cliches.

    At the same, Ellison's scary side comes across, too. If the sex
of the characters had been reversed, I would have been hard put to
keep my mind on the statement being made about friendship and
priorities. Ellison has a fine eye for where you can be jerked into
"Wait a minute, thats US he's talking about". He probably does us a
subtle service by making us face our own pavlovian conditioning, but
I would appreciate some help in the struggle, instead of just being
thrown in.

    Foo, Im rambling on.....

"Well I aint often right, but I've never been wrong;
You know it seldom works out the way it does in a song"

        Dr Memory
        ...{amd,ucbvax,ihnp4}!qubix!jdb

------------------------------

From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 00:14:27 MST

isiw@druri.UUCP writes:
>If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-
>likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going
>to be ill. The guy has *no* understanding of the word "subtlety".
>His idea of compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless
>pandering to the popular swings of fandom.

Hmm... I've never seen anyone accuse Harlan of being subtle. He
isn't, and doesn't want to be. Maudlin sentimentality? shameless
pandering? Are you sure you don't have one of those wonderfully high
quality Star Trek novels in your hand? Harlan has been notoriously
uneven for years-- at his worst he comes across as self-indulgent
and immature but at his best he is one of the best writers in
America. Period. His is not an easy form of literature to read
because it makes you think and it forces you to consider the
unpleasant aspects of life. He isn't a light read, but then neither
are writers such as Kafka, Dante, Cervantes and most of the other
classic writers. Of all of the SF that I feel will survive the test
of time, Harlan's stuff is a good contender, along with Gene Wolfe's
New Sun stuff and Bradbury. These authors will be around long after
the Clarkes and Asimovs of the world are out of print because they
aren't just good SF, they are good works of literature. That doesn't
make them easy things to read, or enjoyable, but they are compelling
and technically excellant.

>And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got a
>writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break! He's a
>hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a

You obviously have never seriously tried to write. I could make a
snide comment about the chances of your success by the quality of
your posting, but I'll be nice and refrain. Anthologies are a LOT of
work. Harlan's writers block also had a physiological base (there
was an article in Locus a few issues back on this-- I can detail it
if neccessary) that made it impossible for him to work at all. One
thing Harlan has NEVER been is a hack. Just ask all of those
castrated editors who tried to modify his work when he didn't agree
with their changes. Hacks care about money, Harlan cares about
words...

>But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin,
>Barry B.  Longyear, Anne McCaffrey (oh, those dragons are just *so*
>cute!).

Oooh, lets just take a potshot at ALL of SF while we're at it. Jump
on Issac, jump on Arthur, you forgot Terry Carr and R. A. MacAvoy,
too.

>Mean while, mainstream fiction has Martin Cruz Smith, Mark Halprin,
>geez - even Rosemary Rogers writes better than they do! Wake up!
>Neat ideas and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions don't make
>up for bad characterization, weak plots, and no character
>development, no matter *how* many tribbles you strew around.

There are at least as many BAD authors in 'mainstream' as there are
in any genre. Perhaps more. You can put the best SF authors and
worst mainstream people together and get just as biased a discussion
in the other direction.  It sounds to my like you simply have a bias
against SF.

chuq

From the Department of Bistromatics:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #208
Date: 26 Nov 84 1429-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Nov 84 1429-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 208

Today's Topics:

        ****** SPECIAL HARLAN ELLISON ISSUE - PART II ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hsut@ecn-ee.UUCP
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 00:32:06 MST

           The movie is based on Ellison's novella "A Boy And His
Dog". The story won a nebula and has been anthologized many times.
It can be found in collections of nebula-winning stories, Ellison's
"The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart of the World and other
stories", and numerous other books. The movie is easily obtainable
on videotape and follows the story rather closely. The punch line at
the end of the movie (not in the novella) is offensive to people
with no stomach for puns...
           Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is a novel by Philip
K. Dick. The movie based on DADOES is Blade Runner, a vastly
superior movie to A Boy And His Dog. I've seen both movies several
times and enjoyed them immensely.

                                  Bill Hsu
                                  pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

From: isiw@druri.UUCP (WattIS)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 09:48:52 MST

 Well, well, well, chuq...

You should have your reader's license suspended for reading while
indoctrinated if you can even utter Ellison's name in the same *day*
as Kafka, Dante, and Cervantes! Just because he's written some good
stuff (I do agree with you there - he's come through a few times,
but...) does not qualify him as an artist, nor does it qualify his
work as literature. Ask any English teacher.

BTW, even hacks don't like their work changed (just like hackers
don't like their code changed...) - even Alan Dean Foster barks a
few times, I would think. But just because Ellison has garnered a
rep as being *the* enfant terrible of the genre is no reason to
assume that the words he defends are any good. "The squeaky wheel
gets the grease" - that's all it means.

Anthologies I have had experience with, as well as working on a
large newspaper. Ellison has no excuse for 10 years of "writer's
block" on what could be at most 40 pages which don't require much
creativity, just background information and a little fanfare by way
of introduction (I'm not going to mention his penchant for
self-indulgent forewords in the previous DV-ADV... let's just say
those forewords are so odious they could gag a maggot on a meat
wagon).

You're probably right about mainstream fiction and *its* hacks. I
bow to that one - mainly, I read magazines like "Easyrider",
"Hustler", "Gung-Ho!", "Reader's Digest", "Ebony", "Tiger Beat",
"Mad", "Parade", "People", "Us", and "National Enquirer". So I'm not
so up-to-snuff.

And as far as Gene Wolfe goes, I agree with you double on that one.
He's so far above the rest of his peers... I just hope the quality
of his literature inspires others in the genre to get out of their
ruts and try to rise above their sometimes painfully obvious levels
of incompetence. It's about time.

Davis Tucker
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO

------------------------------

From: jimb@amd.UUCP (Jim Budler)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 15:17:22 MST

bes@drutx.UUCP writes:
>Now that all you Ellison fans have come out of the closet so to
>speak, movie A_Boy_and_His_Dog is based was written by Ellison.
>The book has a rather bizarre title that I can never seem to
>remember correctly, something like: Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_
>Sheep?.  Can anyone help

I don't know much about Ellison but 'Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep' was by Philip K. Dick and is the basis of Bladerunner.

 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 982-6547
 UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!jimb
 Compuserve ID: 72415,1200

------------------------------

From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui)
Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 00:53:33 MST

mwm@ea.UUCP writes:
>I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved
>morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you.  Personally, I would
>rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of
>humanness somewhere in it.

If this is what you want, I suggest Kurt Vonnegut instead. Harlan
does have a warmer side (Repent, Harlequin! comes to mind) although
even then he bites. Vonnegut is unrepentently depressing. So is
Heller, for that matter.

chuq

From the Department of Bistromatics:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 12:41:56 MST

        I have a question: a number of people have mentioned a
"writer's block" in connection with Ellison's delays getting LAST
DANGEROUS VISIONS to the publishers. Since it's now been about 10
years since the original date announced for the publication of LDV,
and since Ellison has written MANY stories in the last decade, my
question is this: WHAT writer's block?  Does it only affect his
writing of introductions to other people's stories?
        This question is not meant sarcastically; perhaps such a
specialized sort of writer's block is possible. I am genuinely
curious if anyone has any hard information on this. Can anybody
help?

-  From the Crow's Nest  -              Kenn Barry
                                        NASA-Ames Research Center
                                        Moffett Field, CA
Electric Avenue:            {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: Re: Ellison vs. Kafka, Dante, & Cervantes
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 15:07:24 MST

> You should have your reader's license suspended for reading while
> indoctrinated if you can even utter Ellison's name in the same
> *day* as Kafka, Dante, and Cervantes! Just because he's written
> some good stuff (I do agree with you there - he's come through a
> few times, but...) does not qualify him as an artist, nor does it
> qualify his work as literature. Ask any English teacher.

And what the hell would an *English* teacher know about *any* of the
authors mentioned?  Kafka wrote in German, Dante in Italian, and
Cervantes in Spanish.

I don't claim Ellison is as good as any of the above, but far too
many people in this country (USA) think that everyone wrote in
English.  In the current discussion of Borges's "Library of Babel,"
for example, the question of exact meaning can be resolved only by
looking at the original Spanish.  You can enjoy the works in
translation, of course, but *English* teachers are not the ones to
go to for a discussion of their merit.

BTW, Kafka and Dante are great fantasy!  (So is Milton--and he did
write in English!)

The daughter of a Spanish professor, hence somewhat biased,
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

From: davison@bnl.UUCP (daniel burton davison)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 84 18:40:53 MST

bes@drutx.UUCP writes:
> >Now that all you Ellison fans have come out of the closet so to
> >speak, movie A_Boy_and_His_Dog is based was written by Ellison.
> >The book has a rather bizarre title that I can never seem to
> >remember correctly, something like:
> >Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep?.  Can anyone help
>
> I don't know much about Ellison but 'Do Androids Dream of Electric
> Sheep' was by Philip K. Dick and is the basis of Bladerunner.
>  Jim Budler
>  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
>  (408) 982-6547
>  UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!jimb
>  Compuserve ID: 72415,1200

The story that "A Boy and His Dog" came from was "Blood's a rover";
it's in one of the numerous ellison collections, perhaps a nth
Dangerous Vision.  I heard him read "Blood's a rover" at a con a
while ago; it was *very* effective.

dan davison
uucp: ..decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!davison
arpa: davison@bnl

------------------------------

From: kalash@ucbcad.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 10:24:50 MST

> The story that "A Boy and His Dog" came from was "Blood's a rover";

        Nope, the movie "A Boy and His Dog" came from the story "A
Boy and His Dog". The story "Blood's a Rover" is a sequel (or maybe
a prequel) written after "A Boy and His Dog".

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 12:03:50 MST

> Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much as
> some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly and
> soft place.  If one can't feel sympathy and the pain behind the
> characters in the "Paingod" collection, the frustration in the
> "Gentleman Junkie..." collection, and the revenge, and hatred, and
> indifference in other stories of his, then I daresay that you lack
> the glimmer of "humanness" that you claim to seek.
> Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great
> injustice.
> tim lasko {decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et.
> al.}!decvax!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko DEC, Maynard, Mass.

I used to swallow up material from Ellison as fast as he could
produce it. (Well, OK, slight exaggeration there...at any rate, I
read him a lot.) I used to like him quite a bit, and I still agree
with his viewpoints to some extent. Also, his socio/political
(non-fiction) writings, as in "The Glass Teat", are wonderful. He is
about as close to being Hunter Thompson as one can be without being
Hunter Thompson...

...(yup, here it comes)...HOWEVER....

   I have come to the conclusion that the man writes himself into a
trap. In his strive for "telling it like it is," he's forgotten
almost entirely about the other side of humanity...the side of us
that hopes, dreams and strives (whether we fail or not, some of us
DO strive).. he's become obsessed with sitting and brooding about
how rotten we all are. In all things, especially writing, we should
try and keep and open mind.

Tim Lasko also wrote that he does not base his opinion of people on
their "social graces." (Forgive me, Tim, if I am misquoting you...
and corrct me if I am taking you out of context.)  That, however, is
a large window into someone's personality, and what is writing if
not a reflection of the person doing the writing?  Don't get me
wrong, Ellison is a very elloquent, brilliant writer...  he is also,
unfortunately, vearing toward manic depression about humanity...
   ...ah, I can hear him calling me a "pinko, twit bastard" right
now...so be it...

   One final word about Ellison that has bothered me for a long
time...he seems to be quite a poor sport. I have a copy of a letter
from him when StarTrek was about to be taken off the air...saying
that StarTrek is the best thing since slice bread....after some
disagreements with Roddenberry over his "City On the Edge of
Forever" script, and, more recently, in the refusal in accepting his
script for the ST movies, Ellison suddenly began attaching labels on
StarTrek like "pablum for the mind."

StarTrek is only one example of many from his past track record...
...just something to think about when you evaluate the man...

                     --- Rob DeMillo
                         MACC
                         ...seismo!uwvax!demillo@uwmacc

------------------------------

From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 84 15:48:11 MST

barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>       I have a question: a number of people have mentioned a
>"writer's block" in connection with Ellison's delays getting LAST
>DANGEROUS VISIONS to the publishers.

The article I used as a basis for my comments is from Locus #283.
The following excerpts should clarify things:

[from Harlan Ellison, Back From the Depths; Locus #283, used without
permission]

Harlan Ellison, after 10 years of massive writer's block, is working
again and finally finishing old projects, thanks to a little help
from his friends.

"When I turned forty, something happened to my metabolism. I have
always had a peculiar metabolism-- I don't use drugs or drink
because I can't. Ten years ago I took on major projects: The Last
Dangerous Visions, The Harlan Ellison Hornbook, and a lot of other
books that haven't come out. I was only halfway through when the
trouble worsened."

Ellison developed uncontrollable rages, leg tremors at night,
insomnia, memory loss, lack of sex drive, and trouble concentrating.
Although he was still able to crank out the occasional short story,
his other projects all came to a halt.

Finally he read an article in New York magazine on Endogenous
Depression.  Unlike emotional depression, which results from outside
causes, this is due to a biochemical imbalance.

Five years of specialists, tests, drugs, and $30,000 later, they
decided his illness was unique and incurable.

"I am still sick, but now when I feel the lassitude I slap my face
to get the adrenalin going and work up my anger. I am working every
day."

From the Department of Bistromatics:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 06:32:40 pst
From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* vs. harlan ellison

     Sorry.

     I just do not like Harlan Ellison's work.  Those of you who do
please feel free to skip this.  I think the real reason I don't care
for his stuff is the general tone, which strikes me as bringing out
the worst in either us or others.  Perhaps this is intended as
satire or some such form of humor, but if so, the negativity is
strong enough to hide it from me, at least when I'm reading to enjoy
rather than reading to criticize.

     Just my opinion....
                                        der Mouse

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #209
Date: 27 Nov 84 0944-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #209
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Nov 84 0944-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #209
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Nov 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 209

Today's Topics:

        Books - Asprin (2 msgs) & Eddings (3 msgs) & 
                Lynn & Wolfe (2 msgs),
        Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - Plausibility in SF & SF Book Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mcdonald@smu.UUCP
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 84 08:49:00 MST

WaRP does indeed plan to put out four issues of MythAdventures a
year.  They plan to follow all the books exactly, at a rate of six
issues per book; the first three have appeared.  Foglio's art is
amazing; the demons have more expressive range than you'd expect
from humans...  There are humorous details in almost every panel
that you may not catch until the third reading.

The most reliable way to get it will be to subscribe.  (I'm sorry I
don't have the address with me.)  You can also find it at comics
specialty stores, but some of them seem to have trouble keeping it
in stock.  The rumor I hear is that some of their distributors are
hoarding.  (I have not heard any reason why they would do this.
WaRP books can't be collector's items any time in the near future,
as WaRP keeps them in print until the series ends.)

                                       Erin McDonald

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 84 08:41:00 MST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>

     The comic book is being done by the Same people who brought you
ElfQuest....Wendy and Richard Pini. It is following the first book
exactly, and is drawn by Phil Foglio (who did the cover for the
latest Myth* book in trade paperback edition). I believe it is on a
quarterly schedule, but I may be wrong. You can order it from the
publishers, and it is probably available elsewhere, but I dont know
where. I can get more information, but I can't send out to netland
personally, so this will do people little good.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: sanders@aecom.UUCP (Jeremy Sanders)
Subject: Enchanters' Endgame
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 16:39:50 MST

Yes, its been a long wait (though not as long as some others I
remember), but "Enchanter's Endgame" the fifth and final book in
David Eddings Belgariad just hit the stands. I recommend this whole
series as one of the best to come out in the last ten years.

                                Jeremy Sanders
                                aecom!sanders

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes )
Subject: Re: Enchanters' Endgame
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 07:53:01 MST

>... "Enchanter's Endgame" the fifth and final book in David Eddings
>Belgariad just hit the stands. I recommend this whole series as one
>of the best to come out in the last ten years.
>                               Jeremy Sanders

I, too, have been waiting for this to come out.  I started it Sunday
afternoon and finished it Sunday evening (with only one stop for
food).  As you might guess, i did enjoy it very much, but I do have
some complaints.  I feel rather let down by the ending of the book.
I don't know why, maybe I was just expecting him to do something
really original.  After all, the concept was good, his writing has a
quality and wit that is far too rare in this genre, the characters
were well drawn and (mostly) believable.  What more could I ask for?

[  ... Spoiler Alert ... Spoiler Alert ... Spoiler Alert ...  ]

Well, for starters, I wish that it didn't have such a @!##$@*!
Hollywood ending.  Everybody (well, almost) gets married and is
expected to "live happily ever after" (except Garion, his rather
forced marriage has all the seeds for a really hen-pecked husband).
I often felt that characters were thrown at each other and told to
be "in love" without getting a chance to know each other and develop
any sort of true understanding.  The best example is probably Adara,
the "true confession" scene wherein she expresses her love for
Hettar as she lies (she thinks) dying rings totally false.  It's
just too contrived to feel true.  This applies to most of the
romances.  I'm not opposed to romance or happy endings, but I would
have liked a little more originality and a little less reliance on
old, worn-out formulae for a happy end.

In all, this book feels more rushed than the first four.  It seems
that the author lost control of some of his characters and relied
on cliche to carry them rather than maintaining the expressive
writing style that I was starting to expect from him.  Perhaps he
had too many people populating his book and tried to give them all
equal access to center stage, but didn't have the time to craft
each appearance for maximum effect.

Finally, the confrontation with Torak, though exciting, left me with
no real impression other than "Oh well, another Ultimate-Evil-in-
the-Universe-gets-destroyed-novel."  I'm tired of that sort of
stuff. Why can't more fantasy literature take a realistic approach
to this subject, i.e. that evil resides in each of us, and that the
true war between good and evil lies in the internal struggle rather
than in destroying some great EVIL being.  (sigh, I'll get off my
soapbox, now) Whatever "technical and philosophical points" the
author was trying to develop apparently got lost in the telling of
one more good-destroys-evil fantasy story.  And that is very
disappointing, because he had the potential to do much better than
that.

I still recommend the series highly.  It's exciting, often
humourous, and has some of the most enjoyable characters I've seen
in a long time.  It stands far above most fantasy literature in
quality and concept.  Read it.

Posted by:                           Jeff Hanes
USnail: 508 Wheel Rd.           UUCP:{seismo,decvax}!brl-bmd!jeffh
        Bel Air, MD  21014      ARPA:<brl-bmd!jeffh@seismo.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Book Five of The Belgariad out!
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 17:31:26 MST

Enchanter's End Game by David Eddings
Ballantine Books
$3.50 (U.S)

Now, I know how things on this net go.  Either 1) I am the only one
who liked books 1-4 (Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of Sorcery, Magician's
Gambit, Castle of Wizardry), 2) this was already announced by 30 or
40 of you last week when a) Grendel was down due to hard disk errors
after which it b) came up with a bad old version of rnews and tossed
out a few hundred articles, or 3) even as I type this 20 or so
others are typing in this very same scoop (the theory of the
parallel network (wow!).  What the heck -- I took a shot. (Hey, this
could've been a lot shorter!)

Fred Avolio, DEC -- U{LTR,N}IX Support
301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA:  grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP
Subject: SILVER HORSE
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 14:05:29 MST

                     SILVER HORSE by Elizabeth A. Lynn
                      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Last month I reviewed a Bluejay Books release, DARKER THAN YOU
THINK by Jack Williamson.  This month I got another Bluejay Books
story to read.  THE SILVER HORSE is by World Fantasy Award-winning
author Elizabeth Lynn.  It's about a little girl who dreams she is
in Storyland where all the toys that never got proper names end up.
She meets several toys that come to life and has an adventure saving
her brother from Dreamland, where he is a prisoner of the Dreamlady.

     The illustrations by Jeanne Gomoll aren't any good either.

                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

From: ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan)
Subject: Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 18:51:25 MST

While reading some of the repartee concerning Harlan Ellison
(including those oh so sage comments from the oh so ever present
Chuq), I saw several references to Gene Wolfe's four book series,
collectively know as "The Book of the New Sun".  There seems to be
relatively wide agreement that these are excellent books.  I too
have read all four of the New Sun books, plus most of Wolfe's other
books.  From this I guess it could be concluded that I like Wolfe,
and it is true.  I liked the New Sun books because of the writing
style, Wolfe's descriptions and the action element of the story.  In
these books Wolfe has woven an incredibly complex plot whose central
point I hoped would be revealed in the last book.  For me at least,
this did not happen and the books remain enigmatic.  In the last few
pages of the last New Sun book, "The Citadel of the Autarch", the
new Autarch, whose previous career we have followed, states that he
is leaving the Book of the New Sun behind on earth and going to meet
the extra-terrestrials.  While on this flight he will rewrite the
book a second time.  Since he has perfect memory, he can reproduce
the book exactly.  He says that if you don't understand the book,
read it a second time, just as he is writing it a second time.  I
have not done this yet.

Even though the plot of Wolfe's New Sun seems to be only a
collection of strange events, I believe that it is clear that the
books contain more.  I just have not discovered it yet.  The
question I pose to you out in net land is what ties the events in
the book together.

Those of you who believe Wolfe to be such a great writer presumably
see what I have missed.  If you don't, I wonder if perhaps you are
confusing Wolfe's obscureness with literary greatness.  I like
Wolfe, but I am not yet convinced that he is a great american
writer.

Well I hope that this will provide much interesting discussion and
perhaps some enlightenment for

                          Ian Kaplan
                          Loral Data Flow Group

------------------------------

From: cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 84 12:09:01 MST

     Ian Kaplan writes:

                 In these books Wolfe has woven an incredibly
complex plot whose central point I hoped would be revealed in the
last book.  For me at least, this did not happen and the books
remain enigmatic.  In the last few pages of the last New Sun book,
"The Citadel of the Autarch", the new Autarch, whose previous career
we have followed, states that he is leaving the Book of the New Sun
behind on earth and going to meet the extra-terrestrials.  While on
this flight he will rewrite the book a second time.  Since he has
perfect memory, he can reproduce the book exactly.  He says that if
you don't understand the book, read it a second time, just as he is
writing it a second time.

     I found that repeated readings of these books were needed, not
only to refresh my memory of them (they came out at intervals of 8
to 12 months) but also to understand them at all. Wolfe apparently
wants the reader to work hard (as witness his use of obscure words,
not explained), and in many places a "throw-away line" clarifies
something that appeared hundreds of pages back, or even in a
previous volume.

     What does it all mean?
     I don't know that it *has* to mean anything. If a book engages
the reader's attention and gives enjoyment, then it is satisfactory.
If it survives several attentive rereadings, and still gives
enjoyment, it is excellent. I think _The_New_Sun_ qualifies.
     One reservation: Severian's promotion to the position of
Autarch seems unmotivated; i.e. it does not make sense in the
context of the book. (Even the characters in the book seem to feel
their world is pretty weird.) This is a defect, and is not repaired
by having the previous Autarch suggest that indeed it was
unmotivated.  But maybe, the next time around, I'll see why Severian
was the obvious choice, and this was the obvious thing to happen to
him.

Regards,
Chris

Full-Name:  Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:  ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:   (201) 870-5853

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 13:09:12 EST
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBNCCJ.ARPA>
Subject: 3-D chess?
To: cracraft@sri-tsc.arpa

   Does anyone out there have any info on how the 3-D chess game is
played that appearred in the Star Trek series?  I know how to build
it and set up the pieces, but thats about it...

                                               thanks,
                                               [raig
                                               cmacfarlane@bbnccj

------------------------------

Date: Mon Nov 26 16:10:17 1984
From: cracraft@sri-tsca
To: cmacfarl@BBNCCJ.ARPA
Subject: Re: 3-D chess?

I think the 3-D Star Trek chess game was just a prop.  I've tried to
get a duplicate, but it is not easy.  There is another type of 3-D
chess game which has 3 full-sized boards one over the other.  I
think the resulting game is too complicated and confusing to be
enjoyable.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 06:33:15 pst
From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: Plausibility in SF

     Well, here are my two cents on the believability, plausibility,
et cetera controversy.

     I read both sf and fantasy, though for different reasons (and
hence I like fairly restricted subclasses of each).

     The sort of sf I read is the sort which takes one or two (or
some small number of) assumptions which are either "impossible" or
simply beyond what we can do today (though maybe we can see how we'd
do it tomorrow).  For example, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
(Heinlein) assumes two things (Turing-potential computers and
colonization of Luna) and builds the rest on those two and hard
science as we know it today.  Ringworld assumes several things
(Scrith, various aliens, a *lot* of technology), but the rest is
fairly consistent (see also below).  This is the "new idea" sort of
sf; perhaps that's why I like it.

     Fantasy I read for escapism.  This means stuff like Darkover,
The Lord of the Rings, Anne McCaffrey (various books), Amber
(Zelazny), Lord Darcy (Randall Garret), Gray Mouser (Fritz Lieber),
etc.  Generally, this involves a heavy dash of magic in some form
(usually psi powers, though usually not so called)).  This of course
runs counter to the reasons I read sf (does it now?  Somebody said
that magic was just not-yet-understood science).

     I will also read a work in either genre which builds a detailed
and internally consistent world, such as Dune (which doesn't really
fit either of the previous two paragraphs).  Yes yes, calm down, I'm
sure Dune has internal inconsistencies.  The thing is, they were
either minor enough or hidden enough that I didn't notice them.  Or,
for example, Ringworld.  I'm not sure why I read these; I guess I
just enjoy any well-built world.
                                        der Mouse
Hacker: Someone who destroys /
Wizard: Someone who brings it back

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 23:56:46 EST
From: Bob Clements <clements@bbncd1.arpa>
Subject: SF Book Club

I am finally tired of checking the "No, don't send me that junk" box
on my SF Book Club form, and I'm going to cancel.  I'd like to know
whether anyone knows of an address which might reach the editorial
staff of the Club, rather than just the mailing computer. I would
really like to let them know why I am giving up.

In case anyone is interested, or would like to discuss it or flame
about it, my reason is mainly that I want Science Fiction and they
aren't providing it lately. They have stopped carrying the annual
Best of and Orbit and Universe class books. Most of the selections
have Swords, sorcerors, dragons, unicorns and barbarians. That's
Fantasy, not Science Fiction, in my book.  I like a dash of Fantasy
now and then, and have subscribed to F&SF for eons. But I think the
Club has gone off the deep end in the F department and forgotten the
SF.

/Rcc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #210
Date: 28 Nov 84 1316-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #210
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Nov 84 1316-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #210
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Nov 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 210

Today's Topics:

     Books - Asimov & Ellison (3 msgs) & Wolfe & Book Reviews,
     Miscellaneous - Hitch Hiker's Game

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 26 Nov 84 23:04:47-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Asimov's robots

I'm not sure whether or not there's any direct evidence that Asimov
intends Lije Baley and R. Daneel to be in the same universe as that
of U.S. Robots, but given his present tendency to tie everything
together I'd suspect it is.  In general I am willing to forgive
minor inconsistencies produced by such tying together of stories
written at different times.

However, such forgiveness is not required in the case of ROBOTS OF
DAWN.  If you reread "The Bicentennial Man" you will find that
Andrew was a fluke, not supposed to have come out the way he did.
You will also find that in reaction to that fluke, U.S. Robots
(corporate fascists that they were) started making robots less and
less independent minded (and thus less humanoid).

More importantly, Andrew was *NOT* humaniform in the sense that R.
Daneel is.  He got his brain put into a biologically human body.  This
is not the same as creating an artificial body which appears to
function like that of a human.  The important point in "The
Bicentennial Man" is not that Andrew becomes humaniform but that he
becomes HUMAN.
                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 10:28 EST
From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Again, Harlan Ellison SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #207

After having read this issue of SFlovers, I draw the following
conclusion about Harlan Ellison: he's certainly the most thought
provoking author SF has offered in some time, and borders on genius.
And how could one possibly enjoy, or at least, respect Ellison's
work?  If one will let go of his own fantasies regarding the human
condition long enough to realize that the world ain't always a
pretty place to live, one would see that Ellison grasps the dark
side of the psyche firmly; if someone would say that "A Boy and His
Dog" was simply morose claptrap and bullfeathers, I would ask you,
why are so many women and children in this country treated in much
the same way as in Ellison's fictional society?  Come on folks, give
it up, SF is not always escapist fare.  Ellison throws our own
shortcomings back in our faces, smack where we don't want them to
be: where we can see them vividly.

Regards-  zot <schneider.wbst>

PS- The movie "A Boy and His Dog" was based on a story of the same
title by Ellison, but I read it in a borrowed book.

PPS- I wonder what Ellison might think of all this?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 12:29:20 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Harlan Ellison & Manners

In reading SF-LOVERS for the past year and a half, I have noticed a
tendency for the focus of debate on topics to often digress from
talking either about a work one has read/seen/heard, or how you
reacted to it, felt about it, feel during/after it, what it reminded
you...eventually drifting down to picking apart the creator and/or
the "science".

Particularly when somebody doesn't like an author, concept, etc.,
this can radidly degenerate into mud-slinging and trashing.  We've
had our periods of dumping on everything from Donaldson and Asimov
and Heinlein to (currently) DUNE and Harlan Ellison.

May I politely remind the readership that some of the people you are
flinging mud at may either be reading this directly, or be shown it
by friends.  I'm clearly not the only SFWA (Science Fiction Writers
of America) member getting SF-LOVERS.

Kindly separate your remarks about Harlan Ellison (as an example)
from specific works or his work in general.  And think about whether
you have all the facts.  Harlan isn't going around criticising your
C programs and shellscripts.  And if he did, I doubt he'd
immediately lambast everything else you'd done professionally, sight
unseen, or then analyze and criticize your own personality defects.

I had Harlan as one of my instructors at the 1973 Clarion Science
Fiction Writers Workshop (East).  I've seen him speak; have two of
his albums; and have read (and re-read) a substantial amount of his
work, plus his extensive introductions, essays, and notes, and other
related biographical and critical essays on him and his works.
(I.e., about what anyone reading sf compulsively and rapidly for ten
or twenty years knows.)

I won't place Harlan's works at the top of my sf pantheon, but he
never asked to be.  Put within the historical framework of sf,
Harlan has been one of those authors who grew with the times,
developed levels of quality, depth, originality, style, and
relevance that a lot of other authors I won't name never even tried
and failed at.

Some of his work is so-so.  Some of it is (in my opinion) excellent.
Most of it is "a good read".  He works hard at what he does, tries
to be a professional, and is doing it to earn a living.  Frankly, I
have looked at some of the authors and books gushed over in this
newsletter, and I don't understand what the fuss is at all. (I won't
name names here; it's my opinion, and this is not the place to kick
off more mud-flinging.)

But Harlan and his work need no defending.  They speak for
themselves.  Read some of his earlier collections of non-sf.  Read
some of his more recent works.

What does need attending to is the level of manners here at times.
Can we tone it down a bit, please?  SF-LOVERS is not the only
netmail that gets out of hand at times, but that's no excuse.  Just
bear in mind that your subject may be reading what you write, hmm?

And I'd like to hear more about more?  What's up in the magazines
these days?  Is anybody writing or reading original short sf?  Is
there anything happening these days besides sequels to trilogies,
thud-and-blunder, sword-and-sorcery, and other imitation adventures?
Is the 'sequel' to THE SPACE MERCHANTS any good?  What do you all
think about Barry Malzberg's definitions, comments, historical
summaries, and analyses of sf in ENGINES OF THE NIGHT?  What d'ya
think of A MATTER FOR MEN (?) by David Gerrold?  Do you feel that
TALES OF NEVERYONE (Delaney) is trying to make one or more specific
points, or is more an experiental book?  And, either way, how do you
relate this to DHALGREN, TRITON, and HEAVENLY BREAKFAST?  What sf
books do you feel still hold up today?  Do you read Phillip Wylie,
Bernard Wolf, or Gerald Kersh? Do you feel that the increased
popularity of low-content sf/fantasy is doing a Gresham's Law on
that which we held to be near and dear to us?  How many times have
you read ENGINE SUMMER?  Did you feel that the style in RIDDLEY
WALKER was successful and essential?  How do you feel about DAVY, by
Edgar Pangborn?  How did you get started reading SF; what have you
read?  Have you read Patricia McKillip's RIDDLE OF STARS trilogy,
and if so, how many times?  Do you prefer 'genre' sf or non-genre
sf?  Do you feel that general writers can, as a rule, write sf
acceptably when they try, or are more often to fail?  Do you feel
that writers like John D. MacDonald and Steven King, to name a few,
cross the line well?  Do you feel that "When It Changed" was indeed
a pivotal story in sf?  Do you care whether the Darkover stories
maintain continuity?

Is there a lamppost in YOUR closet?

Daniel P. Dern

------------------------------

Date: Wed 28 Nov 84 08:15:46-EST
From: Elizabeth Willey <ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re...:Harlan Ellison

Even people who don't like Ellison's fiction should try his
nonfiction.  Most recent is _Sleepless_Nights_in_the_Procrustean_
Bed_, an anthology of short essays about everything from his own
late mother to video games to dating games.

eliz

------------------------------

From: donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 84 06:27:52 MST

I've been out of town and just recently managed to get caught up
with everything -- otherwise I would have attended to this earlier.
(Perhaps not coincidentally, my trip was to recover my library from
storage, including THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN!) Beware: some spoilers
may lurk in the following discussion...

In the last chapter of THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, Severian says:

        Have I told you all I promised?  I am aware that at various
        places in my narrative I have pledged that this or that
        should be made clear in the knitting up of the story.  I
        remember them all, I am sure, but then I remember so much
        else.  Before you assume that I have cheated you, read
        again, as I will write again.

Wolfe is something of a fan of detective fiction (as you might guess
from his story 'The Rubber Bend'), and the last several chapters
consist of the summation which the great detective always makes at
the end of the story.  Of course Wolfe doesn't want to spoil the fun
of finding the answers, so he answers things obliquely, and you have
to read carefully to guess at what particular puzzle is being
explained.

I don't like to spoil the fun either, but I will mention some points
to direct your re-reading that stem from things I've noticed or read
elsewhere.

 +      Easy one: Can you draw Severian's family tree?  There are a
        number of red herrings which appear in the course of the
        books but the answer to this is fairly clear by the end of
        CITADEL.

 +      What is the connection between the gold coin which Vodalus
        gave to Severian, and Dr. Talos?  What relates it to the Sun
        and to the old mausoleum in the necropolis of the Citadel?
        Bonus question, unrelated: What was the original function of
        the Citadel?

 +      What generates the apparitions of Master Malrubius and the
        dog, Triskele?  This should be easy to answer, perhaps more
        so because of the recent Asimov novel.  (There does seem to
        be a curious parallel between Asimov's universe and
        Wolfe's...)

 +      What really happened in the climactic event of THE CLAW OF
        THE CONCILIATOR?  I don't believe this is stated directly
        but it is relatively straightforward to guess.

 +      What is the basis of the Urthian religion?  Analogies with
        at least two of our religions come to mind.

 +      Who is the Conciliator?  What is Severian's connection to
        him, and to the New Sun?  Who is responsible for this
        connection?

 +      Finally, why is a rose's thorn as efficacious as the Claw?
        If you understand this, you understand the core of the
        books.

You have 30 minutes.  Put your pencil down to indicate when you have
finished.  Start now.

There are lots of fun things to look for besides plot events, of
course.  One is tracing the origins of the stories and legends which
the people of Urth tell.  Another is catching references to Jorge
Luis Borges' works; two places to look are the story of Domnina's
encounter with Father Inire, and 'The Tale of the Student and His
Son'.  (There are others, too...) Another is looking for little
clevernesses -- for example, what book in the set of four which
Severian fetches for Thecla does he NOT describe?  (I wouldn't have
noticed this if Wolfe hadn't mentioned it in an article.)  If you
fancy this sort of thing, it helps to have a copy of THE CASTLE OF
THE OTTER and to read 'The Books in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN' in
PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING (which also has a map of the continent on which
Nessus is located).

Wolfe started working on THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN in 1975 and the
last volume wasn't published until 1983.  Think of all the effort
that went into it -- it shouldn't be surprising that Wolfe wants the
reader to do some work too.

If all else fails, you can see if the answers are in THE URTH OF THE
NEW SUN when it comes out,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui)
Subject: various reviews (catching up a bit)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 18:00:44 MST

It's amazing how much reading you can catch up while criss-crossing
this wonderful country of ours-- airplanes and airports seem to have
a purpose after all. Anyway, onward to things I should have read
months ago:

Dying of the Light - George R. R. Martin
Pocket Books, $1.95
Rating: ***

I've seen mixed reviews of this book, but I found myself entranced
and involved in it. It isn't an easy or happy book-- this is a book
for an active reader (similar but not as well done as Wolfe's
books); definitely not a casual read. The story is set on Worlorn, a
rogue planet on it's way out of a star system and into unending
darkness. Worlorn was used as a festival planet by a federation of
worlds, and now scientists are studying it as it dies. The book
studies the scientists, their societies, and how they interact with
each other. Very powerful on a gut level, especially the characters
and their strengths, faults and foibles. It made me read long after
I should have been asleep, and that is the best recommendation I can
make.

Wings of Omen -- thieves world #6 - robert lynn asprin
Ace Fantasy, $2.95
Rating: **

I was looking forward to this book after devouring 1-5, but this one
left me flat. Perhaps the new characters just aren't as interesting
as the older ones (noticably in the background in this book). Part
of it may be that I just have trouble with the Beysibs (an amphibian
invasionary force from book #5). Mostly I think it is just that I
(and some of the authors) are running out of steam on the project--
I just don't think it will sustain itself much longer.

Robots of Dawn - Isaac Asimov
Ballantine #3.95
Rating: *

*yawn* a 398 page short story, padded to fill. No real challenges,
no real suspense, Asimov at his most mechanical. Isaac Asimov
writing about sex reminds me of reading Gray's Anatomy-- it's all
there, in perfect detail, and I'm terribly bored. The whole book
left me terribly flat, the only reason this book seems to exist is
to try to link (with understated references to psychohistory) the
robots with Foundation. Not really worth it, in retrospect.

hmm... only 30 books to go and I'm up to date. Time to go back east
again, I guess... *grin*

chuq

From the Department of Bistromatics:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 84 12:33:24 EST
From: TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Hitchhikers Game

Well, I have tried the new Infocom Adventure HHGTTG, and I am really
impressed.  As some of you know, Infocom is notorious for using
straight text, and HHGTTG is unfortunately no exception.  What I
mean is that the Guide's listings could have been done as
graphically as the tv series, but they weren't.  This leaves more
space on the disk for other things, such as more events, a better
parser, and lies.  Yes, I said lies.  This game lies to you!!!  I
won't give away any of the particulars, but it suffices to say that
it is not fully truthful all of the time, and it doesn't let you do
everything you would like to, ie. looking in Ford's satchel yields a
message something like 'You can't.  It's Ford's and it's private.'
This makes for some humorous, frustrating and exciting play,
something that I have found lacking in most other adventure games.
Well worth it, if you ask me.  Just remember, persistence pays in
playing this game.

Jon
"So this is it, we're going to die."
"I wish you'd stop saying that..."

ps-how about a digest called Net.Ellison.flame?  I'm tired of
reading the same arguments about how good or bad he is.  It's
obvious that both sides of the 'debate' will never concede each
other's views, so I feel that it's time to drop the subject.  If you
don't like him, don't read him, and if you do, feel free to
continue. It's that simple.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #211
Date: 30 Nov 84 1253-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #211
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Nov 84 1253-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #211
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 30 Nov 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 211

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bradley & Clarke & Herbert & McCaffrey &
                  Wolfe & Zelazny & The Flying Sorceror &
                  Thieves World & Networks,
          Films - The Terminator (3 msgs) & Godzilla Remake,
          Television - The Twilight Zone & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 84  21:23 EST (Tue)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-BLUE>
Subject: Darkover

I don't know if this subject has been covered before, sorry if this
has been done here before...

I have never read any of the DARKOVER series by Marian Zimmer
Bradley.  Can someone give me a complete list of titles *AND* a
suggested reading order for same?

Please reply to me, don't deluge the digest...

Thanks,
!* Mijjil!

ARPA: LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
UUCP: best-route-to => allegra!ru-blue!lecin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Nov 1984 11:06:56 EST
From: "Wherever I go, there I am" <AXLER%upenn-1100.csnet (Wherever I
From: go, there I am)@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Clarke's Law Revisited

Well, since Clarke's Law has (once again) appeared in this digest, I
suppose it's time to remind everyone of its non-fictional
equivalent, developed by author John Ford ("The Princes of the Air",
"The Dragon Waiting", etc.).

FORD'S LAW: Any sufficiently advanced technology is
             indistinguishable from cheap special effects.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1984 11:20:41-EST
From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday
Subject: Dune and the Art of Ruining a good book

(slight spoiler warning, but if you haven't already read the book,
what are you doing on sf-lovers?)

    The Marvel Comics version of the movie came out last week.  I
bought it primarily because I like the artist, but I also wanted to
see how badly the movie was going to be butchered.

    Stephen King, eat your heart out!

    Aside from completely re-timing the book (which is acceptable
when you only have 2 hours), the plot is completely changed.  You
see, the Atreides have developed a voice activated sonic weapon
called the 'Weirding Module'.  Therefore, the Emperor allows the
Harkonnens to destroy House Atreides (and Summer Cottage Atreides).

    We will all go see the movie, and complain.  Just remember,
you've been warned.

raz
"Heck, Beave, you never like anything!"

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 28 Nov 1984 09:53:02-PST
From: eppes%grafix.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Nina)
Subject: New McCaffrey book out

At long last, Anne McCaffrey has written a sequel to "Dinosaur
Planet," one of her earliest works (I think).  It is called
"Survivors of Dinosaur Planet" (or something like that).  I bought
it, but I haven't read it yet...(I'm working on The Belgariad, now
that all the books are out [yay!!])
                                                -- Nina Eppes
                                                   DEC
                                                   Spit Brook Rd.
                                                   Nashua, NH

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Nov 1984  04:28 EST
From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Book of the New Sun

I, too, found it difficult to find a true plot to The Book.  It's
curious, because Wolfe has done more substantial works (_Fevre
Dream_ comes to mind), where he has managed to keep his plot tight
and his characters human.  Perhaps it's the strange setting or the
self-indulgent first-person narrative, but The Book of the New Sun
reads like literary doodling.  It has points of greatness (the story
told by the Ascian is a work of art in itself), and they manage to
carry the story limpingly along, but the work as a whole seems more
of an anthology than a series of novels.

My praise will flow freely for anyone who can pick out some
semblance of continuity of plot and can justify it well.  But at the
moment it seems very much that the Autarch's clothes are impossible
for any but the truly wise to see.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 09:54 CST
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Ancient request for dragons

    Awhile ago, someone requested titles of books with dragons in
them.  One that comes to mind is called CHANGELING by Roger Zelazny.
Dragons are not the main theme, but the way they are handled and the
way magic is handled I found quite interesting.  There is also a
sequel called MADWAND.  There are no dragons in MADWAND.

    These are very good books, and I recommend them highly.

                      (*** SPOILER NOTICE ***)

    Changeling begins at the end of a war in which a powerful
magician is defeated and killed.  Magical ability is hereditary in
this family, so the victorious magician takes the defeated
magician's infant son to another dimension and exchanges him for a
baby there.  This is a technological dimension where he supposedly
won't get into any trouble, and the other baby won't have any
magical ability.

    Years later, when these two have grown up, the magician comes
back to get the young man and take him back, because his counterpart
is causing all kinds of trouble with his mechanical montrosities and
they need his help.

    The rest of the book tells the story of this young magician's
rediscovery of his family heritage, and his attempts to defeat his
changeling counterpart.

    The second book continues with the same character, but the plot
is not really related.  They are each complete novels.  I don't
recall the exact plot but I remember it being a quest for knowledge
of sorts.  It was also good.  The word 'madwand' refers to a person
with a lot of magical talent, but no training.  This happens to
describe the main character quite well.  A madwand is thought to be
quite dangerous.

    Brett Slocum
    "I meant to say that it should be hauled off as garbage!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 20:44:35 est
From: cjh@cca-unix (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: "Yngvi is a louse!"

I read an explanation of this several years ago; my recollection is
that it is a punning racial (in mythological, not modern terms)
slur, Yngvi being the progenitor or prototypical member of the
species in question (there are a \lot/ of obscure humanoid species
in Norse mythology). I very much doubt that anyone will find signs
of this line in fandom before it appeared in the magazine version of
that section of Harold Shea's misadventures, since it was published
something like 50 years ago.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 11:36:56 EST
From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Thieves World 6 - Wings of Omen

At my local Caldor's the other day, I spotted a copy of Thieves'
World number 6 - Wings of Omen.  I haven't read it yet, other than
looking it over briefly and noting that it contains stories by
Asprin, Abbey and Cherryh, as well as a note from the editors
explaining why response to fan mail is running years late.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 13:05 EST
From: Henry Nussbacher <HJNCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Networks and Science Fiction

I would like to start a discussion about SF and worldwide computer
networks.  I have recently read some Valentina stories in Analog:

Valentina - May 1984
The Crystal Ball - August 1984
The Light in the Looking Glass - September 1984

The whole concept of a Worldnet does not appear to be that far off.
With Arpanet and Csnet each having well over 1,200 nodes each and
Bitnet/EARN having just started in late 1981 and having 400 nodes it
appears that we are well on our way to a 'Wired World'.  I am
interested in hearing more on this subject and on other SF stories
related to networks (i.e. The Environment Accounts).

Henry Nussbacher

------------------------------

From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: "The Terminator"
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 01:23:53 MST

     "The Terminator" is better than I thought it would be.  The
coming attractions made it look like a fairly standard action film
emphasizing multiple deaths.  Well, that element is certainly
present, but there is more to the film than violent killings.  Not
an awful lot more, but more.  The story concerns a killing machine
in the form of a human being (played by Arnold Schwarzenegger) sent
back in time to eliminate a woman destined to be the mother of a
freedom fighter of the future.  Human guerrillas in that future have
just succeeded in overcoming a genocidal computer and its machine
minions.  The cyborg is sent back to prevent the leader from ever
being born, and the guerrillas dispatch a soldier to stop the
terminator.

     Schwarzenegger has nothing but a name and a city to go on, so
he goes to the phone book and starts murdering all the women named
Sarah Connors.  Meanwhile, the soldier, with a little more
information, has started tailing the important Sarah Connors, a
rather average young woman who has no suspicion that disaster is
about to strike.  The police and the press quickly catch on that
something unusual is up, but the terminator is extraordinarily
persistent.  Shotgun blasts and bullets are no more than minor
inconveniences to him because, beneath the flesh, he is really a
robot made from an incredibly hard metal alloy.

     James Cameron, the director and co-author of the script,
deserves most of the credit for lifting the film above others of its
kind.  "The Terminator" is well paced, the action sequences are well
handled, and Cameron manages to bring enough interesting ideas (both
in plot and presentation) to the non-action scenes that we don't
fall asleep between bouts of gunplay. Cameron puts the camera in
reasonable places, if not the perfect place, he understands how to
foreshadow plot developments, and (assuming he had a hand in the
editing) he knows how to put sequences together.  The action scenes
aren't on a par with those of "The Road Warrior", or even close, but
they are vastly superior to the garbage one sees in films like "The
Exterminator II".

     The acting is good, if unspectacular.  Schwarzenegger's body
looks even more impressive than in the Conan films, and he brings a
certain inhumanity to the role which is entirely appropriate.  He
and Cameron even manage to get together for a few mildly comic
moments.  Linda Hamilton is properly paniced as the terminator's
target, and Michael Biehn heroic as the soldier from the future.
They work rather well together, which is fortunate, since they are
together for most of the film.  Paul Winfield is wasted again in the
role of a police lieutenant who discovers too late that he is out of
his depth.

     "The Terminator" is true to its genre.  Many bullets fly, cars
crash and explode, and a lot of people die.  For the most part, the
violence is not terribly explicit.  Cameron does not insist on
showing us closeups of bullets impacting on Schwarzenegger's
victims, which is a welcome change from the usual style of
presentation in exploitation films.  On the other hand, "The
Terminator" is definitely not for the queasy of stomach, for Cameron
deploys some special makeup effects which allow Schwarzenegger (oh,
why couldn't the man have a shorter name, or at least one easier to
spell?) to perform on-camera surgery on his arm and his eye.  The
effects, by Stan Winston, are not terribly convincing, but the mere
concept of presenting them for our viewing pleasure is pretty gross.

     "The Terminator" also has a few more science fiction tricks up
its sleeve than is customary.  There are extended sequences set in
the future that make good use of some fairly good model work.  The
special effects people still have to work on a more convincing dummy
for their car crashes, however, as the one they used just doesn't
make it.  There's also a bit of stop-motion animation which is of
varying quality, but effective overall.  Cameron and Gale Anne Hurd,
his co-writer and producer, give a bit more sf type explanation than
one usually gets, which is just fine with me.  Adam Greenberg's
photography is also better than average for exploitation action
films.  I particularly liked the way he clearly established the
difference between scenes set in the present and those set in the
future by lighting, using colder and harsher lights for the
futuristic scenes, warmer and more natural lighting for the modern
ones.  Not a major innovation, but more than what cinematographers
for action films usually bother with.

     In summary, if you think you might like "The Terminator", you
almost certainly will.  If you are unsure, give it a try.  If you
really don't think that a picture with this kind of plot appeals to
you, skip it.  "The Terminator" works well within its boundaries,
but it certainly doesn't transcend them.

                         Peter Reiher
                         reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                         {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: gnome@olivee.UUCP
Subject: Re: "The Terminator"
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 15:01:39 MST

By the way, there is an article about TERMINATOR in, you guessed it

  SOLDIER OF FORTUNE   magazine!

I kid you not!

Newsstands hate speedreaders...

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 14:16 CST
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: TERMINATOR

I also saw this movie recently.  On the whole I thought it was
pretty good, and so must many other people.  According to a Newsweek
article I read, it was the top grossing movie one week.  A later
newspaper article indicated that it had slipped to number two, and
then to number four, but that is still pretty good.  I had noticed
the "interior views" of the terminator.  I didn't recognize any of
the assembly language, but I thought I saw some fragments of COBOL
(an identification division).

*************************SPOILER**********************************

More than a week after I saw the movie I realized that the way the
machines could have prevented the human leader from being born was
to NOT send the Terminator into the past!  Think about it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 24 Nov 84 13:29:16-EST
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Rumor: "Godzilla" remake

A Group W radio correspondent in Tokyo reports that a $40 million
remake of "Godzilla" will be produced in time for the 30th
anniversary of the original film in 1986.  The monster will be 264
feet tall; it will be awakened by a volcanic eruption, gain strength
by eating plutonium, and destroy Tokyo in the usual fashion.
Destroying the creature will involve American and Soviet aircraft
carriers and bring the world to the brink of nuclear war.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1984 09:41-EDT
From: David.Anderson@CMU-CS-K.ARPA
Subject: Twilight Zone to return

I heard on TV the other night that the Twilight Zone is going to
return to television next season (on NBC, I believe).  One of the
first episodes is being written by Stephen King.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 84 11:26:53 PST (Wed)
Subject: Re: 3-d chess
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-icsc>

        The 3-d chess game in Star Trek to the best of my knowledge
is just a prop. I have never seen a chess game with that many levels
and I cannot think of any possible rules to govern the movements
from one level to another.  I have played the commercial version of
3-d chess (3 8x8 identical boards stacked upon one another) and have
enjoyed the break from the traditional chess games (anyone out there
ever play on a "tube-shaped board" - each side is a continued to the
other side - kind of fun).

                        - Greg Finnegan
                          finnegan@uci-icsc

P.S.
        Star Trek bumper sticker fads:

                Out --> Beam me up Scotty

                In  --> He's dead Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #212
Date:  4 Dec 84 1214-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #212
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Dec 84 1214-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #212
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 4 Dec 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 212

Today's Topics:

    Books - Adams & Asimov & Hardy & Heinlein & Hugo Gernsback,
    Films - The Terminator & Dune & 2010

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The
Subject: Fish
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 09:33:26 MST

Regarding the HHGTTG Game:

> My LSC connection tells me that Douglas Adams has been working on
> a game with Steve Meretsky of InfoCom (the Zork people) -- I
> believe, therefore, this game will be a COMPUTER game, not a VIDEO
> game.  I think Steve's other games include Planetfall

Hey, gang, it's already out... I've seen in (although haven't played
it) in Commodore 64, Apple II, and MAC (!) formats.  It comes with a
"Don't Panic" button, some tourist brochures for galactic Hot Spots,
and a supply of authentic lint.

For those not familiar with Infocom games, these are "text"
adventures... not the "move the hero with the joystick" games.  I
saw an article which says the Infocom HHGTTG parallels the book, but
familiarity with the book is not especially helpful.

                                             Ron Wanttaja
                                             (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

From: mike@ucf-cs.UUCP (Ruthless)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 84 15:22:14 MST

Readers will recall that the legend of Susan Calvin causing a mind
reading robot to destroy itself is retold in Robots of Dawn.  Susan
Calvin existed in the era of U.S. Robots.  Thus U.S. Robots and
Bailey are part of the same future history.

Mike Eisler
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Central Florida
Orlando, FL  32816
uucp:  {decvax, duke, princeton}!ucf-cs!mike
arpa:  mike.ucf-cs@csnet-relay
csnet: mike@ucf

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl)
Subject: THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SF
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 18:27:39 MST

        THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION by Phil Hardy
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Less than a year ago I saw for the first time and reviewed a
book called THE PSYCHOTRONIC ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FILM by Michael Weldon.
I considered this to be the best reference book on science fiction,
fantasy, and horror film I had seen in well over a decade.  I stand
by that assessment.  The heavyweight reference books in the field
were Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS and Donald C.
Willis's HORROR AND SCIENCE FICTION FILMS: A CHECKLIST, both
published in the early Seventies.  These were the best works for
finding out about that film that the local independent station was
showing at 3 AM, Sunday morning.  The early Seventies were a long
time ago.  There has been no updating of Lee and while Willis did
write a follow-up, HORROR AND SCIENCE FICTION FILMS II, it is a bit
inconvenient to have to look up films in both books.  Two general
books on films MOVIES ON TV by Steven Scheuer and especially TV
MOVIES by Leonard Maltin good books and are helpful, but neither is
complete on genre films and Scheuer consistently underrates genre
films.

     So when PSYCHOTRONIC came out, it was certainly the most
complete reference work on genre films to have been published for
quite a long time.  Now another good book has been published.  The
book is THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION by Phil Hardy.  He
does not cover the entire genre, he covers only films with some
science fiction content.  Hence, he does not list KING KONG, but
does list KING KONG VS. GODZILLA.  He lists only films released
theatrically in this country, not made-for-tv films.  Within those
bounds, Hardy is dependable and complete.  I consider myself
something of an expert on science fiction films and I had a really
hard time finding science fiction films that do not have entries.
Most unlisted films I have found are really fringey: DR. X, THE
APEMAN, THE HAPPINESS CAGE, MAN MADE MONSTER.  They tend to be more
horror than science fiction.  Where Hardy really shines is in his
coverage of foreign science fiction films.  Minor Italian, Mexican,
and Japanese films are included and I have yet to pick one that I
have seen that Hardy does not cover.

     For each film covered there is a review of at least a paragraph
in length, followed by credits and cast.  The reviews are pretty
reliable.  Hardy knows the good films from the bad ones, generally,
though on a few his opinions seem a bit off base.  The listings are
by year which means that it can be used as a reference on specific
films or one can go through page-by- page to get a good overview of
the history of the science fiction film, or, better yet, one can
just browse the book.  Overall, the book is a really pleasurable one
to read and the work put into it justifies the apparently steep $25
price tag.  If you do not want to buy it for yourself, have your
library buy it for their reference section.

                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl)
Subject: JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 18:30:03 MST

           JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE by Robert A. Heinlein
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
                     Ballantine, 1984, $16.95.

     This one starts out with more promise than other recent
Heinlein novels (NUMBER OF THE BEAST and FRIDAY, in particular), but
about halfway through Heinlein once again reverts to his stock
characters and the novel loses steam.

     The premise is intriguing.  Alex (that's Alexander
Hergensheimer) is on a cruise in an alternate world to ours in which
the Moral Majority would seem positively decadent.  He walks through
a fire in Poynesia (on a bet) and finds himself in an alternate
world (to his) which is far more free.  There he meets Margrethe, a
stewardess on the cruise ship, who has been having an affair with
Alex Graham, Alex's alter-ego in her world, and conveniently decides
to fall in love with Alex.  (If her name sounds like a literary
allusion, it's no accident.)  If this isn't confusing enough, some
gangsters are after Alex Graham for the million dollars he has in
his lock box on board, and in the confusion that follows, Alex and
Margrethe end up in yet another world.  This is just the
beginning--they jump from world to world, usually with nothing more
than the clothes on their back (sometimes less).

     Now, I liked all the alternate world stuff, but that's my
particular thing.  I don't think Heinlein does it particularly well,
but then he has an out--but that would spoil some of the plot.  He's
done this sort of thing before (in NUMBER OF THE BEAST), and it
wasn't all that great there either.  But the different life-views
are interesting, even if all the consequences are perfectly worked
out.  Alex is a born-again Christian (of course--but would the
phrase 'born-again' have arisen in *his* world?); Margrethe believes
in Odin.  Together they conclude that someone (some deity,
actually--Loki?  Satan?) has it in for them, and that's why their
world keeps changing.

     Unfortunately, somewhere around world #8 (give or take a couple
of worlds), they meet a couple a lot like Robert and Virginia
Heinlein (one presumes) who live in an amazing house (luckily we are
spared precise descriptions of the plumbing, which up until this
novel seem to have been a Heinlein mainstay) and have very liberal
and radical ideas.  There's a lot of talk about nudity and sex
(another Heinlein staple--I wouldn't mind it so much if he did it
well) and the usual philosophical speeches before Alex and Margrethe
once again jump somewhere else.  It's also about here that Alex and
Margrethe start talking like stock Heinlein characters.  A
pity--they were interesting up to this point.

     Then about three-quarters of the way through, Heinlein does an
abrupt left turn and the novel becomes something else entirely.
Unfortunately, what it becomes is not nearly as interesting as what
it was.  (Telling what would ruin the surprise, which is about all
it's got going for it.) The novel just sort of trickles out, with a
very unsatisfactory conclusion.

     JOB is better than other recent Heinlein novels (everything
since TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE), but it's not up to his earlier work by
any means.  It will probably be nominated by a Hugo (it seems that
any novel by Asimov, Clarke, or Heinlein is), but it's a nostalgia
nominee.  (Strangely enough, it seems remiscient of Silverberg's UP
THE LINE, though I can't pin down why.)

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
==> Note new net address:               ...ihnp4!houxq!ahuta!ecl
(Mail sent to my old address will be forwarded temporarily.)

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl)
Subject: Hugo Gernsback
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 18:28:19 MST

                           Hugo Gernsback
                  An editorial by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Every year the World Science Fiction Convention members give
out the "Hugos," awards named after Hugo Gernsback.  But what did
Gernsback do to deserve this honor, and the respect that he is given
in the science fiction community?

     He didn't invent science fiction.  Whether you want to claim
that science fiction was invented by Jonathan Swift (or even
earlier) or are one of those who dates (modern) science fiction from
Shelley, Verne, and Wells, you have to admit that Gernsback did not
invent it.  He didn't even write much of it--his one surviving work
is RALPH 24C41+--and a pretty bad novel it is.  He didn't seek out
and promote the best authors--Wells and Stapledon were not regular
contributors to AMAZING.  What he did do was to give science fiction
its own name--and its own ghetto.  Far from performing a service for
the genre, he acted in such a way that it has taken almost fifty
years to even attempt to recover from the damage he did.

     Before AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was published in
mainstream magazines.  After AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was
published in science fiction magazines.  Before AMAZING STORIES,
authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press, sell
well, and be read be a lot of people.  After AMAZING STORIES,
authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press, sell
well, and be read be a lot of people--*unless* it was science
fiction, in which case it wouldn't be reviewed (except in science
fiction magazines), sell just about the same number of copies as any
other science fiction novel, and be read by just about the same
number of people as any other science fiction novel.  The phenomenon
of "it's not science fiction because it's good" got started here;
science fiction books weren't reviewed by major reviewers.

     At last we seem to be escaping from this trap.  What prompted
me to write this editorial was the increasing number of "cross-over"
books that are being reviewed in both the science fiction markets
and the mainstream markets.  Authors like Isaac Asimov, Arthur
Clarke, and Robert Heinlein you might expect to find on the
bestseller lists and reviewed in the NEW YORK TIMES REVIEW OF BOOKS,
but Anne McCaffrey and Philip Jose Farmer?

     The "horror novel" was exempted from Gernsback's scope, and so
(until a few years ago) horror novels were kept in the fiction
section of the bookstore, not in a special section next to "science
fiction" and "juveniles." With the Stephen King phenomenon, and what
seems like every author coming out with a horror novel, some (but
only some) stores have set up separate sections for horror novels,
but even this seems to be going away.  Not the science fiction
section, though--Waldenbooks is even giving it its own club.

     The result is that everyone loses.  The authors whose books are
classified as science fiction sell less (which is why so many
"science fiction" authors have renounced the field).  The readers
who prefer science fiction tend to do all their browsing in that
section and miss the good novels filed in the fiction (which may or
may not be science fiction anyway).  Authors recently reviewed here
that you might have missed by not checking the fiction section
include Russell Hoban (PILGERMANN), Virginia Woolf (ORLANDO: A
BIOGRAPHY), and Doris Lessing (SHIKASTA).  Other authors of the
fantastic not to be found in the science fiction section include
Jorge Luis Borges and Robertson Davies.

     Given all the trouble that's he's caused, why *do* people
venerate Hugo Gernsback?
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl

------------------------------

From: hlj@amdahl.UUCP (Hal Jespersen)
Subject: Re: "The Terminator"
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 84 19:11:56 MST

Has anyone noticed the various textual data shown in the
Terminator's computer images?  One of the sequences was a *COBOL*
program!  I also thought I saw some VAX assembler.  Incidentally, I
don't normally like really violent movies, but this was one of the
more entertaining ones I've seen this year.  Parts were like the A
Team with real bullets.
                                Hal Jespersen
                                (408) 746-8288
                                ...{hplabs,ihnp4,amd}!amdahl!hlj

[The opinions expressed are those of the author and not necessarily
those of Amdahl Corporation, its management, or employees.]

------------------------------

From: howard@garfield.UUCP (Howard . Campbell)
Subject: Dune - Article in Forbes Magazine.
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 17:07:11 MST

Hello, net-people, Dune is coming!  Actually, that's old news, but
the following isn't. ( I hope! )

DUNE is to be released in 1700 theatres world-wide on Dec. 14.  The
magazine Forbes ( Nov. 5 issue - bi-weekly from someplace in NYC )
has a multipage article ( with several informative and 2001-word
colour shots; written by Tom O'Hanlon name "Billion Dollar Flick" )
on the film as well as a pair of pages on Frank Herbert and his
famous book.  And, if you are as lazy as I am, here are some
multi-byte information chunks:

        The Director is Dino de Laurentis's 30 year old daughter and
        DdL is producing the picture.

        The whole thing costs about US$ 40m, with a similar amount
        being thrown in for promotion, distribution and advertising.

        It will be more than two hours long, it required 70 sets and
        35 dialogue segments.

        Ten (yes, 10!) subsequent pictures will be released in the
        following 18 months. ( I expect there may be a misprint
        here, but exactly what the movies are to be about is not
        stated, I suppose one is expected to infer that they'll all
        be Dune sequels, or related somehow.  Perhaps some crap for
        TV? )

        Currently, 5 soundstages have been built in Wilmington,
        North Carolina, with 7 more to come.  ( So many!! So much
        Money!! )

Remember, if you want more, see the above mentioned magazine.  It's
an interesting article.  You'll likely find it in any public
library, I expect.  ( I stumbled on it in our university library. )

                                        Howard
                                          Campbell

{akgua, allegra, dalcs!dreacad, ihnp4, utcsrgv}!garfield!howard
                Memorial University of Newfoundland

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: "2010" is Coming!
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 16:30:14 MST

Since nobody else has mentioned this, I saw a TV ad a couple nites
ago for the movie 2010, sequel to 2001.  The few short action scenes
they showed didn't permit me to make much in the way of quality
judgments, but it seemed OK.
        Having read, and really enjoyed, the book, no way will I see
this flick less than twice.  It's supposed to come here (Chicago
land) Dec 7 (too bad half the astronauts are Russian, not Japanese
:-)).  That's one week ahead of "Dune."  Looks like a real sci-fi
Xmas, no?  mike k

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #213
Date:  4 Dec 84 1252-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #213
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Dec 84 1252-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #213
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 4 Dec 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 213

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Asimov & Delany &
                     Ellison (2 msgs) & Kurtz & Padgett &
                     Vonnegut & Wolfe,
             Films - 2010 & Starman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1984 0121-GMT
From: Alan Greig <Alan%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: So Long and Thanks For All the Fish

Having held out until this monday before buying the book in order to
have it signed by Douglas Adams at my local bookstore, it seems to
me to be well worth the extra cost of the hardback edition. The only
thing I can think of which might be causing it to have such mediocre
reviews on the wrong side of the Atlantic is that 90% of the book
takes place on Earth, the U.K.(to be precise) Much of the humour
whilst not being totally lost upon an American readership might
loose a lot of its edge. Still, I would think that the tying
together of lots off loose ends would more than make up for that and
my advice has to be to buy it now. Besides a hardback always looks
better on a shelf than a paperback !!

------------------------------

From: eric@milo.UUCP (Eric Bergan)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The
Subject: Fish
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 09:57:55 MST

        I have started working over HHGTTG from Infocom. It is
immediately apparent that Douglas Adams played an integral role in
creating the game.  The manual reads much like the books (make sure
and read the sample dialogue and other sections you normally skip
over). So far the plot of the adventure has followed the plot of the
book, but the puzzles I have encountered so far have not been helped
by knowing the book.
                                eric
                                ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 84 15:48:13 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Robots
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>
Cc: MDC.Janice%Mit-oz@MIT-MC.ARPA

I recall several references in the Baley/Daneel series to Susan
Calvin, US Robots, and so on.  I think the "Little Miss" reference
in 'the Robots of Dawn' points to a previous US Robots story.  The
lying telepathic robot of legend is definitely a pointer to the US
Robots/Calvin era, a story called "Liar!".

The first Baley/Daneel stories are published together with all the
other robot stories in one volume (which I think is called 'the
Robot Collection').  In his notes in this volume, Asimov makes no
distinction between the Baley/Daneel universe and the US
Robots/Calvin universe.

I think it's pretty safe to assume they are the same universes.

                                        Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed 28 Nov 84 20:45:28-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <Q.QUASAR@[36.48.0.5]>
Subject: New Delany novel

Stars in My Pockets Like Grains of Sand.

The following is not a review, a real one would require many pages.

Well, Delany has finally written another good novel--I couldn't
stand that Neveryona arglebargle. It is (outside of Dhalgren)
perhaps his weirdest social setting, a galactic culture where the
only pronoun in common usage is "she", for both males and females.

This culture is the semantic battleground of two groups, the "sygn",
whose position is hard to describe briefly but are kind of high-tech
Taoists, and the "family" who are tradition-loving believers in
tight family groups. The two forces encompass much of the galaxy and
attempt to convert planetary populations to their view, having
roughly equal success. The other major social force is the "web", a
kind of galactic NSA who control the flow of information between
planets.

The main-character is another of Delany's weirdos, an Industrial
Diplomat born on a world shared by humans and aliens and raised in a
living arrangement which encouraged him to regard members of both
races as relatives. In addition (a major plot element), the
character is a homosexual with a thing for nail-biting giants. In
short, he would seem to be the least likely person anyone would ever
identify with, given both the culture and some strange personal
characteristics, but it is a tribute to Delany's writing that
identification does indeed take place.

Delany has done an awful lot of work defining his cultures, and
though one gets the idea that he has set up his society to prove or
demonstrate some kind of point, it is not the patronizing attitude
he took in the Neveryona books ("look at this society I have
constructed for your edification; please take careful notes....").

To say much more about the book would be something of a spoiler, so
I won't. I would, however, like to read a real review, if anyone
ever writes one.

Oh, the book is supposed to be the first of two, a "diptych", in
Delany's words. As is kind of usual for Delany, I bet this book will
be a Nebula nominee or winner but will lose big in Hugo voting.

Oh, and lest you decide not to read the novel based on bad past
experience (ie Dhalgren), let me assure you that I really disliked
Dhalgren too (well, actually I never did finish the damned
thing....)

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 84 11:01:10 PST (Thursday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison & Manners
To: ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA

Daniel,

Your message started off in a very positive way (translation: I
agree with you)

>>In reading SF-LOVERS for the past year and a half, I have noticed
>>a tendency for the focus of debate on topics to often digress from
>>talking either about a work one has read/seen/heard, or how you
>>reacted to it, felt about it, feel during/after it, what it
>>reminded you...eventually drifting down to picking apart the
>>creator and/or the "science".

But, unlike you, I am willing to put up with the dross in order to
savor the occasional gem.  In any case, I like the fact that there
exists a forum for exploring ANY topic related to science fiction
and fantasy; namely, SF-LOVERS.  I think it's simple human nature
for a discussion to branch and flow away from the initial topic.
Perhaps it is your expectations of SF-LOVERS that needs review,
rather than our tendency to fly off on a tangent.

While we're on the subject of manners, Daniel, PLEASE do me a favor
and keep your holier-than-thou attitude to yourself!  What
arrogance!  Also, I find your name-dropping and "I'm a SFWA Clarion
graduate, -- nyaa, nyaa, nyaa," tiresome, pompous, and ridiculous!
After all, I am an Ordained Minister of the Holy Church of the
SubGenius, and "Bob" is a personal friend (besides being my personal
saviour), SO DON'T TALK DOWN TO ME!!-)

>>some of the people you are flinging mud at may either be reading
>>this directly, or be shown it by friends.

So what if Harlan, or any other author, is on this list?  It's not
like they are FORCED to listen to the amateur criticism of a bunch
of sf-lovers.  I can't imagine ANY author of adult maturity being
upset or dispondent because Jeff Duntemann or Joe Kalash didn't like
this or that about his book, his personality, or his looks!
Besides, what sort of friend would show Harlan Ellison a message
that said, "Harlan is a jerk!"  Give to me a break!

To get more topical [back to the surface of the matter]: When Harlan
isn't wallowing is self-pity, he can be very provocative.  But a
"genius?"  I don't know about that.  Then again, I think Jack Vance
is a genius, so what do I know?

These are the cogent and curteous remarks of,
Perry A. Caro

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 14:16:49 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Abashed reply to reply
To: caro.PA@xerox.arpa

Perry --

Whoops! Apologies!  I didn't mean to be holier-than-whomever or
name-dropping, or talk down to you.  Apologies all around to any
others who agree with Perry that I got out of line...

I went back to an article seven years old, when Harlan spoke at MIT.
Nothing much has changed; whether or not he's still asking
for/provoking all this ruckus, he's still getting it.

But it's funny, isn't it, how we'll work so hard at trashing people
who work very hard for us, while we're bombarded with sludge so bad
it isn't even worth mentioning.  (No specific references,
intentionally.)

I'm not sure I can agree with "...I can't imagine ANY author of
adult maturity being upset... because [someone] didn't like this or
that about his book..."

And I'd bet an electronic nickle that somebody out there shows a
copy of some or all of this to Harlan, either a friend, or
otherwise.

I like a lot of Jack Vance, too.  Have you read any of his
mainstream/detective novels (sorry, don't recall the pseudonym)?

Next victim, please... new plates! No room! No room!

From the a-wee-bit-triggerhappy terminal of
Daniel P. Dern

------------------------------

From: mjn@teddy.UUCP (Mark J. Norton)
Subject: New Deryni Novel by Katherine Kurtz
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 08:56:21 MST

A recent bookstore excursion yielded a new novel by Katherine Kurtz
set in her Deryni Universe.  You will no doubt remember the first
trilogy (Deryni, Deryni Rising, and Deryni Checkmate) and the second
(Camber of Culdi, et al).  This trilogy is called "The Histories of
King Kelson" and picks up where the first trilogy left off.  We
re-join our heroes: Kelson, Duncan and Morgan in a new set of
adventures.

The first book of this new trilogy is called "The Bishop's Heir" and
is currently available only in Del Rey hardcover ($14.95).  The also
published page reveals the next two titles: "The King's Justice" and
"The Quest for Saint Camber".

Since I'm only a few chapters into the book, I really can't give a
recommendation of this novel (or give anything away, either).  On
the other hand, I've read the six previous Deryni novels and liked
them all.  Anything new in this series falls into a BUY-IMMEDIATELY
category for me.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 84 7:49:19-EST (Fri)
From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa
To: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse%uw-beaver.arpa@darcom-hq
To: .arpa
Subject: MIMSY WERE THE BOROGOVES

Dear Der Mouse,
        I read "mimsy Were the Borogoves" in Isaac Asimov Presents
The Great SF Stories 5 (1943) which was edited by Himself and Martin
H. Greenberg.  Published 1981 by Daw Books, Inc.  Want an address?
According to its intro in the book, it was printed in *Astounding*
in Feb. of the year in discussion (1943) and Asimov calls it a
*classic*.  It fascinated me (obviously; I only read it once but it
stuck in my mind) and it's frightfully good reading (but literally
NOT recommended for people who already have paranoid tendencies.)
Some of the ideas presented were pretty novel in 1943, I expect, and
they're still pretty thought-provoking.
        Whoever it was that said he wanted ideas in his science
fiction, read this **immediately** if you haven't already.

                                        Judith Tabron

agnostic, n. Person who is absolutely certain that nothing is
absolutely certain.

P.S.  Did you know that "Lewis Padgett" is a pseudonym for Henry
Kuttner and C.L. Moore as a writing team?
                                       jlt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 12:11 CST
From: Brett Slocum <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Vonnegut (Re: Re: Ellison)

I'm no expert on Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. after having read one book
(Cat's Cradle), but I found it to be very humorous and entertaining.
I would recommend it strongly. It most certainly wasn't
'unrepentently(sp) depressing'.  Yes, it dealt with the end of the
world, but there are a lot of stories that have done that, and those
authors aren't labelled 'depressing'.

Now, 'Slaughterhouse-Five' is about the fire-bombing of Dresden in
WW II which isn't very cheery, but you must realize that Vonnegut
was there at the time.

Oh, well. That's all. Just wanted to defend one of my favorite
authors (so far).

Brett Slocum

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 17:53 EST
From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Gene Wolfe books about books

          Does anyone know of any easy (or possible) ways of
\getting/ Gene Wolfe's THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER and/or PLAN[E]T
ENGINEERING?  As I understand it, both were put out by small presses
in small quantities.  I heard that the Science Fiction Book Club put
out THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER.  Is this true?  Is it still available?
(I.e., if I joined now, could I get it?)

Thanks in advance,

Mark Purtill
Purtill@MIT_MULTICS

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: More on "2010" movie
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 16:37:53 MST

Let me expand on my previous posting re 2010 flick (it's too late
for you to stop me anyway...)  Previous discussions here, several
moons ago, implied that the director of this flick had the wrong
attitudes for serious SF film work.  I didn't see any evidence of
that in the few TV commercial scenes, but then they were so short
that it's hard to tell.  At least it didn't seem hoked up like "Dark
Star", and they trimmed the plastic flashing and excess glue off
their models.
        The moons of Jupiter play a big part in this story.  Months
ago I mentioned that the film had better do an awesome job in the
SFX dept to match the moon actions in the novel AND our close-up
Voyager photos of the actual moons.  Next to NASA's pix, 2001's
Jupiter stuff looks pretty dull.  Come to think of it, NASA does
pretty good zero-G special effects too-- have they got something
Hollywood doesn"t? :-)

        "That's cheating--using REAL spaceships!"  mike k

------------------------------

Date: Sun 2 Dec 84 15:43:53-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: STARMAN Review

"Starman" previewed in Palo Alto last night, and I attended with high
expectations.

MINI-REVIEW:  "Arf-arf."

REVIEW: This movie has been compared by some previewers to "The Day
the Earth Stood Still".  Well... that's an insult to TDTESS, and
rather like comparing an episode of "Lost in Space" with "Forbidden
Planet".  The only similarity between the two is the premise, "alien
emissary lands on earth and meets hostility".

The implausiblities start with the alien's ship being intercepted by
U.S.  jets and shot down.  Would our military shoot down an object
from space without even attempting to communicate with it or
identify it, especially when the object's trajectory will land it in
the Arizona desert?  Our military may be paranoid and aggressive,
but it's hard to imagine them being as stupid as they are portrayed
in this film.

           ************ MILD SPOILER WARNING ************

Jeff Bridges as the alien (his name is never given) TRIES to bring
life to the character; but he hardly talks, other than to say "What
is 'tree'?", "What is 'automobile'?".  Karen Allen, as the woman he
kidnaps, creates a relatively rounded character.  But the remaining
people in "Starman" are two dimensional, easily summed up as "The
Emotionless Government Boss", "The Compassionate Scientist", "The
Pugnacious Redneck", etc.

As for suspense, how much can there be with a character who can walk
through fire and raise the dead?  Whom all the "little people" go
out of their way to help?

The dialogue, especially the alien's (when he says more than three
words), tended to be cliches from old SF movies, ie., along the
lines of "On my world we are one race, living by one law, as
brothers."  "There are many intelligent races, but YOUR race is
unique."  "Earth is primitive, savage, but beautiful."  (These are
paraphrased.)

Summing it up, "Starman" comes across as a bad 1950's B-grade SF
movie.  If you MUST see it, don't pay full price.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #214
Date:  4 Dec 84 1315-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #214
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Dec 84 1315-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #214
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 214

Today's Topics:

        Books - Adams & Ballard & Dragons & Hugo Gernsback,
        Television - The Twilight Zone,
        Miscellaneous - 3D Chess (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jab@uokvax.UUCP
Subject: So Long, and Thanks for the Memories
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 22:01:00 MST

"So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" is okay, but not great.
Possibly the best line is
        "... For those of you not interested, you should turn to the
        last chapter, which includes Marvin, the paranoid android."
A book to read, but definitely not a book to buy.

Stand in the BDalton's and read it.

        Jeff Bowles
        Lisle, IL

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 17:19:44 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: EMPIRE OF THE SUN by J G Ballard

A lot of sf readers profess not to enjoy the work of J G Ballard.
His stories are often cold and pessimistic, built around metaphors
instead of plot or character development; his anti-heroes behave
irrationally at best; his universes are usually brutal and
indifferent to human struggles.  I sometimes think these things, and
it's true that I haven't bought very much that Ballard has done
recently, but I find that many images from Ballard stories stick
with me and that upon rereading they seem to mean different things.
Novels like THE CRYSTAL WORLD, THE DROUGHT, stories like 'The
Terminal Beach', 'Chronopolis','The Voices of Time' or (my favorite)
'Build-up', have dream-like settings which appeal strongly to me
when I'm in the right mood.  Why is Ballard's fictional space so
strange?  It's not because he indulges in fashionable technophobia
and world-weariness; in Charles Platt's interview with Ballard in
DREAM MAKERS we hear: 'I'm completely out of sympathy with the whole
antitechnology movement...  [A]ll these doom-sayers and
echo-watchers -- their prescriptions for disaster always strike me
as simply wrong, factually, and also appallingly defeatist,
expressing some sort of latent sense of failure.  I feel very
OPTIMISTIC about science and technology.  And yet almost my entire
fiction has been an illustration of the opposite.  I show all these
entropic universes with everything running down.  I think it has a
lot to do with my childhood in Shanghai during the war.'

EMPIRE OF THE SUN (Simon and Schuster, 1984; 279 pp.) is a novel
which deals with Ballard's wartime experiences in excruciating
detail.  It is unlike anything of Ballard's that I have ever read
before; in fact it (deceptively) reads like a straightforward
mainstream novel, but it really is an exhaustive catalog of all the
images and characters which Ballard has used in his work.  The
drained swimming pools, the wrecks of aircraft, the inhuman
protagonists, the Kafkaesque agents of authority: they're all here,
and it's exceedingly disturbing that they can't be dismissed as
figments of nightmares as they sometimes can in Ballard's stories.
They are all real, terrifyingly real, all evidences of a basic
disturbance in the universe which has caused the rind of culture and
civilization that we take for granted to be peeled away.  Young Jim
is eleven years old in December, 1941, when the novel opens; he
lives a comfortable existence as the son of a well-to-do English
mill owner in Shanghai.  Across the Yangtze the Japanese gather for
their final assault, but life among the expatriates proceeds as
usual.  On the morning of December 8 (December 7 across the date
line in Hawaii), the ships in the Shanghai roads are bombed by the
Japanese, and in the ensuing panic Jim is separated from his
parents.  He manages to find his way back to his house in the
British quarter, but his parents never return...  Jim's world begins
to bend, then crack under the weight of events; his childish outlook
is never shaken, however, and it adapts in a remarkable way to
account for a life of eating weevils for protein, volunteering for
kitchen duty in order to steal sweet potatoes, watching Chinese
beaten to death for sport by guards, stripping bodies of salable
possessions.  In short he becomes a classic Ballard character:
someone whose soul has died but whose body lives on.  This is not a
novel for people who maintain that war brings out heroism in the
common man.  In EMPIRE, war is simply an efficient way of converting
common men and women into bloated, fly-spotted corpses.

EMPIRE OF THE SUN is not a book for the squeamish, but it is an
effective book: it achieves its narrative purpose, it shocks you
from your complacent existence, showing you just how little
experience you may have of the way the world operates outside your
comfortable pocket in it.  It is not technically a science fiction
novel, but its world is as alien to ours as any distant planet, and
it is an encyclopedia of images from Ballard's sf.  Despite my
lingering revulsion, I'm glad I bought the book.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Sat 1 Dec 84 13:48:15-EST
From: Nancy Lynn Connor <NANCY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Dragons

        I was reading a story about dragons lately called "Jhereg"
by Steven Brust, and I couldn't help making a comparison to Anne
McCaffery's Pern stories, and a story I read earlier called "The
Dragon Lord" by David Drake.

        It was interesting to note that Brust uses his dragon as a
tool for crime (having him eat people, having him get information,
etc.) and Drake uses his as a weapon and threat, where McCaffery
uses her dragons as a tool to help people.  I wonder if this carries
over to other animals and tools as well.  For instance, Vonda
McIntyre wrote "Dreamsnake" about snakes used as medical assistants,
and Zenna Henderson writes about telepathic powers and how they are
used to help people.

        Does anybody have another observations along this line?

------------------------------

From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 16:40:55 MST

>      Every year the World Science Fiction Convention members give
> out the "Hugos," awards named after Hugo Gernsback.  But what did
> Gernsback do to deserve this honor, and the respect that he is
> given in the science fiction community?

>      He didn't invent science fiction.  Whether you want to claim
> that science fiction was invented by Jonathan Swift (or even
> earlier) or are one of those who dates (modern) science fiction
> from Shelley, Verne, and Wells, you have to admit that Gernsback
> did not invent it.  He didn't even write much of it--his one
> surviving work is RALPH 24C41+--and a pretty bad novel it is.  He
> didn't seek out and promote the best authors--Wells and Stapledon
> were not regular contributors to AMAZING.  What he did do was to
> give science fiction its own name--and its own ghetto.  Far from
> performing a service for the genre, he acted in such a way that it
> has taken almost fifty years to even attempt to recover from the
> damage he did.

        No, he didn't invent SF, but he did invent the name, and he
created SF in the sense of its becoming a separate and distinct
genre of fiction. Before Gernsback, no such distinction was made. We
agree he was a terrible writer, but no one argues that his writing
is the reason for his fame in the SF field. As to Wells and
Stapledon: Wells was reprinted in almost every issue of Amazing in
its early days. Gernsback would probably have been very happy to
have had original contributions from either of these writers, but
it's hardly his fault if they didn't send him anything.  Wells was
getting paid much more than Gernsback could have afforded for
original material, and Stapledon may not have ever *heard* of
AMAZING; like Wells, he was a British author, and more a philosopher
than a SF writer. And his 1st "SF" book (LAST AND FIRST MEN) wasn't
published (even in Britain) until 1930, by which time Gernsback no
longer owned AMAZING.  He ran another rag, yes, but that was the
magazine whose author compensation was described as "payable upon
lawsuit"; I doubt he could have afforded Stapledon, either.

>      Before AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was published in
> mainstream magazines.  After AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was
> published in science fiction magazines.  Before AMAZING STORIES,
> authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press,
> sell well, and be read be a lot of people.  After AMAZING STORIES,
> authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press,
> sell well, and be read be a lot of people--*unless* it was science
> fiction, in which case it wouldn't be reviewed (except in science
> fiction magazines), sell just about the same number of copies as
> any other science fiction novel, and be read by just about the
> same number of people as any other science fiction novel.  The
> phenomenon of "it's not science fiction because it's good" got
> started here; science fiction books weren't reviewed by major
> reviewers.

        I disagree about the respect that fantastic literature was
supposedly accorded before Gernsback. This could be the subject of a
long essay all by itself but, briefly, fantasy seems to have fallen
into disfavor during the Enlightenment, and only started to
re-emerge (as the more rational SF) in the 19th century with a *few*
authors. The bulk of fantastic literature in the late 19th and early
20th century was published in pulp magazines or dime novels, and was
not "respectable". Only now is fantasy/ SF regaining its recognition
as a very large, important and respectable branch of literature.
        You're mostly right in what you say about the negative
effects of the ghettoization of SF on good writers. Many good SF
books have not been taken seriously because of the "SF" label. But
aren't there good effects from this ghettoization, as well? For one
thing, SF needed to develop some common foundations before SF books
could go beyond the basics.  I don't think that a LEFT HAND OF
DARKNESS, to cite just one example, would have been possible until
many other books had beaten the subject of star travel and alien
worlds to death. Early SF gave us a vocabulary of familiar concepts
(aliens, FTL, robots, time travel, etc.) that could be made the
foundation of better books that simply used such "plumbing" to
create a situation where the results of such things could be
extrapolated into humanly-interesting questions. The insularity of
SF helped this process along by making it easier for all the SF fans
and writers to see what everyone else was doing in the field, and so
to borrow useful concepts and ideas from one another.
        Another point in favor of ghettoization: SF fans are, by and
large, more fanatically dedicated to their literature than can be
reasonably explained. The only other special-interest audiences I
know of who can be as fanatic are (some) jazz and opera fans. For
the trufan, special SF sections in bookstores are a plus, not a
minus. It filters out the uninteresting, and makes the interesting
easier to find. Sure, you can flame the hardcore fan for his/her
narrowness, but it's their business.  More on this below.

>      The result is that everyone loses.  The authors whose books
> are classified as science fiction sell less (which is why so many
> "science fiction" authors have renounced the field).  The readers
> who prefer science fiction tend to do all their browsing in that
> section and miss the good novels filed in the fiction (which may
> or may not be science fiction anyway).  Authors recently reviewed
> here that you might have missed by not checking the fiction
> section include Russell Hoban (PILGERMANN), Virginia Woolf
> (ORLANDO: A BIOGRAPHY), and Doris Lessing (SHIKASTA).  Other
> authors of the fantastic not to be found in the science fiction
> section include Jorge Luis Borges and Robertson Davies.

        While it probably *used* to be true that the SF label cut
down sales of good books (and, BTW, *helped* the sales of bad
books), it doesn't seem to be true any more. How can you otherwise
explain the bestseller treatment of some SF authors nowadays
(Heinlein, Clarke, et al)? Or the fact that used-book stores pay
*more* for SF than any other kind of fiction?
        As to fans missing other good books because they only browse
the SF sections: you're putting the cart before the horse. If a SF
fan is so into SF that they're uninterested in other literature,
lumping the books together in the stores won't change them, it'll
just make it harder for them to find the stuff they like. Besides,
since there seem to be dozens (hundreds?) of new books published
every day, all of us are forced to use some kind of filter in
deciding what books we'll even consider reading. Being guided by the
"SF" label is no better or worse than any other filter; you end up
reading some bad books, and missing some good ones, but there's no
avoiding that with so many books in print.
        And what makes you think authors like Lessing and Borges are
unknown to SF zombies? I discovered Borges thru reprints in F&SF;
Lessing, from reviews in the same magazine. And Woolf is almost a
household name.  I think I first heard of her from the movie with
her name in the title.  The others you mention are less familiar to
me, but I suspect that's because I haven't been keeping up to date
on *any* fiction, SF included, in the past few years (%$&!*
computers taking up all my free time!! :-)).

>      Given all the trouble that's he's caused, why *do* people
> venerate Hugo Gernsback?

        Because, as you yourself point out, he was mainly
responsible for ghettoizing SF. Whether or not that was a good idea,
it makes old Hugo important in the history of SF. One thing I
suspect we'd both agree on, is that modern American SF would have
been very different if SF hadn't gotten cut off from the mainstream
of literature. Maybe better, maybe worse, but, either way, Gernsback
was instrumental in making it what it *is*.

-  From the Crow's Nest  -                 Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA
USENET:                       {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry
SOURCE:                       ST7891

------------------------------

Date: Sun 2 Dec 84 00:01:49-EST
From: Janice Eisen
Subject: Yes, Twilight Zone to return

According to the latest issue of LOCUS, Twilight Zone will indeed be
returning to a boob tube near you.  A piece of good news is that
they've hired Harlan Ellison (no flames please) as creative
director; his job is basically going to be to make sure they don't
do any old, tired ideas.

                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 84 02:37:45 EST
From: Bob Webber <WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: 3-d chess (Star Trek and elswhere)

many versions of 3-d chess exist.  the interested reader is referred
to:
   A Guide to Fairy Chess
   Anthony Dickins, Dover Publications, 1971.
however, it is much more important that we start analyzing 4-d chess
(also presented in same reference).  the significance of this is
illustrated in the story: "A board in the other direction" by Ruth
Berman, F&SF 1972, reprinted in: Pawn To Infinity by Fred and Joan
Saberhagen, Ace Science Fiction, 1982.

  Bob (webber@rutgers)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Dec 84 12:22:13-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: 3D chess

There's a Trek cult book called "The Star Fleet Technical Manual"
(published by Ballentine, but only dedicated types would buy it).  I
think there is a diagram of the 3D chess board in there, but no
instructions on how to play (although from somewhere I recall
something about two of each piece (ie, two queens, etc)).  Probably
was just a prop, like everybody's been saying.

                                --Rob <sra@xx.arpa>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #215
Date:  6 Dec 84 1300-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #215
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Dec 84 1300-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #215
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 6 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 215

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bradley & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Zelazny &
                    Manners & Networks,
            Films - Supergirl & The Terminator

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 84 14:53:57-EST (Wed)
From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa
Cc: lecin%ru-blue.arpa@darcom-hq.arpa
Subject: MIJJIL on DARKOVER

Thanks, Mijjil, for asking this question.  I've read (and re-read)
*lots* of DARKOVER novels, and I would love to see such a list.  If
anyone does have such a list, I would like a copy too, please!!!  I
never have been able to figure out how they go...

                                        Susan Tabron
                                        stabron@darcom-hq.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1984 10:17-PST
Subject: Re: The Book of the New Sun
From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA

        Jim Aspnes recently added a new book to the Wolfe canon,
Fevre Dream, which, considering it is by George R R Martin, is
fairly suprising.  Since arguing ad hominem is generally frowned
upon, I will restrict this flame to the following: There seems to be
a widely held belief that a narrative can take only one (or maybe
two or three, for the more liberal minded) forms, and that
everything else is either "literary doodling" or "too long" or "full
of big words" etc. etc. I would suggest that before you start
attacking a book on literary grounds, you understand something about
the subject - Northrup Frye's Anatomy of Criticism is a good place
to start.  Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun (which is really one
book, as its name implies) has an episodic narrative which places it
squarely in the oldest literary tradition there is (except for maybe
the grunt).  What makes it a fascinating work, outside of the
clarity of its prose, is the interweaving of themes and motifs.  But
if you don't get it by reading it, no amount of explication will
help.
                (mark)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 05:33:08 mst
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe books about books
Cc: Purtill@mit-multics.ARPA

I don't have a line on purchasable copies of THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER
or PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING, but a good place to start is with Mark
Ziesing, publisher of OTTER and from whom I bought both books:

        Mark V Ziesing
        PO Box 806 (orders) or 762 Main St. (store)
        Willimantic CT 06226
        (203) 423-5836, Tuesday through Saturday

Ziesing is a wonderful source of Wolfe books; apart from OTTER and
PLAN[E]T, I've bought THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO, FREE LIVE FREE (both
published by Mark), THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, and just recently an
autographed hardbound edition of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS (a great
book that has been afflicted with revolting cover art in its
paperback editions).  Even if Mark can't get you copies of these
books, you might be able to find out from him where else they might
be available now or in the future.

Here's some publication info on OTTER and PLAN[E]T:

THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER: A BOOK ABOUT The Book of the New Sun.  Gene
Wolfe.  Ziesing Bros.: Willimantic CT, 1982.  ISBN 0-917488-10-5,
0-917488-11-3 (signed ed.).  117 pp.  Limited edition of 520 copies.
Contains essays on the structure and symbolism of the novel, poetry,
onomastics ('the study of names') and warfare; plus a glossary for
SHADOW, an essay on writing, a collection of jokes told by
characters from the novel, a history of the publishing of the novel
and a Wolfe bibliography through 10/81, by Gordon Benson.

PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING.  Gene Wolfe.  NESFA Press: Box G MIT Branch
P.O., Cambridge MA 02139-0910, 1984.  ISBN 0-915368-25-0,
0-915368-83-8 (slipcased ed.).  155 pp.  Limited edition of 1000
copies.  Contains: Introduction by David Hartwell; 'Logology' (a
foreword); 'The Books in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN' (an essay); 'In
Looking-Glass Castle', 'The Rubber Bend', 'The Marvelous Brass
Chessplaying Automaton', 'When I was Ming the Merciless', 'The
HORARS of War', 'A Criminal Proceeding' (a personal favorite), 'The
Detective of Dreams' (all stories); 'British Soldier near Rapier
Antiaircraft Missile Battery Scans for the Enemy', 'Last Night in
the Garden of Forking Tongues' (about guess who?), 'The Computer
Iterates the Greater Trumps' (all poetry); and 'The Anatomy of a
Robot', an article from PLANT ENGINEERING MAGAZINE.

I originally heard about Mark Ziesing and OTTER through sf-lovers,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 10:10:19 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBNCCI.ARPA>
Subject: Source for PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING
To: Purtill@mit-multics.arpa

Plan[e]t Engineering was published by the NESFA Press.  As such, it
should be available from
                        NESFA
                        P.O. Box G
                        MIT Branch Post Office
                        Cambridge, MA 02139

Write to them for further information.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Dec 84 12:16:29-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Madwands

There was one (rather large) dragon in Madwand.  I didn't like
Changeling that much, but thought Madwand had a lot of promise.
Haven't seen anything on it for a while, pity.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 84 15:15:41-EST (Wed)
From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa
To: ddern%bbncch.arpa@darcom-hq.arpa
Subject: Manners, et al

Good for you, Mr. Dern.  I to would like to see more discussion on
more subjects with more manners.  A little heated discussion never
hurt anything, but must it go on for weeks?  Or be so gratuitiously
nasty?

These have probably been on before (I've only been on here since
summer), but I particularly like Darkover, McCaffrey (is there a new
Crystalsinger in the works?), Heinlein (JOB isn't my favorite
either, Moon Is a Harsh Mistress & Stranger are) - and most
especially E. E. Smith.  I ordered a special British edition of
never-before-published-in-book-form short works of Doc's, but
haven't gotten it yet - boy are my fingers crossed.  I have a
collection of first editions of his that I am really proud of.  I
also really like Auel's Clan books - so Ayla is a little improbable
- *somebody* discovered all those things first...


I'm looking forward to reading Emergence, but haven't found it yet.
I have read recently Valentina and Native Tongue, both of which I
loved and for which I thank the Digest.  I also read The Vulcan
Academy Murders, which has appeal to both Trekkies and computer SF
lovers -- lots of stuff about life on and by Vulcans, and a murder
mystery to boot.

Anyway, there are lots of things, old and new, to talk about without
all the flaming..
                                Susan Tabron

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 84 12:56:13 PST (Saturday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Networks and Science Fiction

Stories about a Worldnet?  Try "Dial F for Frankenstein" by Arthur
Clarke.  I won't spoil your reading by saying more than it's a
really hoopy story.  Also, I seem to remember a story about the
original virus program that involved a large net, but I can't
remember the title/author.

--Josh
"Don't just eat a hamburger - eat the HELL out of it."

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  4 Dec 1984 11:20:35-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)

>From: Henry Nussbacher <HJNCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@Berkeley>
>Subject: Networks and Science Fiction
>
>I would like to start a discussion about SF and worldwide computer
>networks. ...

        There was an extensive discussion of this topic in not too
distant past in the Human Net Digest (HUMNET).  Interested parties
may want to send mail to "HUMAN-NETS@RUTGERS.ARPA".  This is the
submission address as I do not have the moderators address.

                                /BEB

------------------------------

From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: "Supergirl"
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 84 22:42:54 MST

        The Salkinds seem intent on becoming the most seasonal of
movie producers.  They're bring us "Santa Claus" for the Christmas
of 85, and they're offering us a turkey for this Thanksgiving.
(It's an old joke, but I couldn't resist.) "Supergirl" isn't a very
good movie.  I think the Salkinds realized this, because they
haven't spent much money on building it up.  Maybe it will make its
money back, but probably "Supergirl" signals the end of the Superman
movies.  If this film and "Superman III" are the best ideas anyone
can come up with, it's just as well.

     Supergirl (Helen Slater) lives in a city saved from the des-
truction of Krypton. The filmmakers don't bother explaining how this
happened, and it's been a long time since I read comics, so you'll
have to go to net.comics to find out.  (If you must, please do.  I
have absolutely no interest in finding out, myself.)  At any rate,
the city is kept going by a couple of power sources known as
octahedrons.  Due to carelessness, Kara (that's Supergirl's
Kryptonian name) loses one.  It lands on earth, in the hands of Faye
Dunaway, a witch with dreams of world domination which the
octahedron can fulfill.  Kara goes to Earth to retrieve the
octahedron, as the city cannot long survive without it.

     For obscure reasons, she disguises herself as Linda Lee, a
student at a girls' academy in the Midwest.  The long arm of
coincidence makes Lois Lane's cousin her roommate.  The only point
of this seems to be to introduce Jimmy Olsen as Lana Lane's
boyfriend, but, since he has nothing to do other than represent the
otherwise absent cast of the "Superman" movies, this point seems
pointless.  Rather than bustle about looking for the octahedron,
Supergirl wastes her time attending classes.  There's another
worthless subplot involving Dunaway's and Slater's rivalry over Hart
Bochner, a gardener who attracts their attention.

     The screenplay of "Supergirl" is very arbitrary and makes
little sense.  Would two idiots really try to rape a woman in a
Superman costume, particularly when she had already blown one of
them through a wall and heated up the knife the other one pulls?
Why does the octahedron make its container grow?  Why does the
voodoo wand Dunaway lays her hands on suddenly give her complete
control over the octahedron's power?  Why, when a love spell goes
awry, doesn't Dunaway immediately break it?  Again, don't bother
sending me justifications, I really don't care.  There's no point
plugging holes in a Swiss cheese.  David Odell deserves the blame
for the screenplay.  A few good lines do not make up for the overall
dreadfulness of this script.

     Some people protested when, earlier this year, I predicted that
"Supergirl" would be a disaster due to the choice of Jeannot Szwarc
as director.  They said that my assessment of Szwarc as a hack was
too harsh.  Well, I was right and they were wrong.  Szwarc, in fact,
gives a bad name to hacks.  He has absolutely no visible talent.
The man just cannot direct.  Since Alexander Salkind has chosen him
to direct "Santa Claus", too, that film also is doomed to disaster.
No great matter, it was a rotten idea anyway, and by keeping Szwarc
busy on it, Salkind may have kept him from ruining a film with some
potential.  I am quite sure that Szwarc's main attraction for
Salkind is that he works quickly and cheaply.  Rapid shooting is OK,
but not if it shows, and "Supergirl" displays telltale signs of
shoddy, careless direction, probably due in part to cutting corners.

     One of the few good things about "Supergirl" is the produc-
tion design, which is superb.  The sets are beautifully dressed and
are quite original.  The special effects are of variable quality and
sometimes detract from the otherwise excellent surroundings.  Many
of the flying effects are unconvincing.  To paraphrase the
advertising slogan of the first "Superman" film, I do not believe
that a girl can fly.  There are also some overly obvious mattes and
composite shots.  On the other hand, some of the effects do work,
particularly the carnage of an invisible monster sent to destroy
Supergirl.

     The acting is also variable.  Helen Slater starts out very
badly, but eventually turns out all right.  She is much better as
Linda Lee than as Kara, and she is certainly not the find Chris-
topher Reeve was.  Hart Bochner has such a rotten part that it's
hard to say whether he's unbearable through his own fault or not.
Brenda Vaccaro, on leave from tampon commercials, is pretty good as
Dunaway's sidekick.  Peter Cook is largely wasted as Dunaway's
ex-mentor, though he does have a good moment teaching the girls of
Linda Lee's academy, reminiscent of some of the great skits he used
to do with Dudley Moore in reviews like "Good Evening", classics
like "The Frog and Peach", "One Leg Too Few", and "Down the Mine".
But I digress.  Mia Farrow and Simon Ward share only one scene as
Kara's parents.

     Acting is a mystery to me, despite the fact that I have seen
thousands of performances in films and have even done some acting on
stage myself.  Why is it that when Peter O'Toole, a very talented
actor, lets out all the stops he is utterly delightful, whereas Faye
Dunaway, also quite talented, is merely embarrassing when she uses
the same tactic?  Perhaps O'Toole would have been equally annoying
if he had more scenes, but I don't think so.  His eventual
reappearance is one of the highlights of the film, even though his
duties are just as silly as everyone else's.  Faye Dunaway, on the
other hand, overacts so outrageously that her perpetual presence is
very hard to take.  Some people may view her performance as high
camp, and I suppose that that is what she was trying for, but I
found her only intermittently amusing.

     The careless nature of "Supergirl" makes it completely unen-
gaging.  Only the less discriminating fans of special effects ex-
travaganzas and those with a taste for surfeits of camp will get
much out of it.  "Supergirl" isn't really much fun, and, for this
kind of film, that is the ultimate indictment.

                         Peter Reiher
                         reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                         {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1984 10:29:07-EST
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: terminator

Just a few comments:
      Arnold Shwartzenegger(sp?) does have a shorter name: He is
known to all his body-building fans as simply ARNOLD.  How many
Arnolds are there (besides the pig)?

                      ****Slight spoiler*****

     Apparently the plot of the Terminator calls for a "static"
theory of time, somewhat like Superman comics employed: No matter
what you do to change the past, you will always find that what you
have done to try to change it had already happened.  This is
different from the main other theory of time, which seems to
indicate that every time you travel back in time, you are creating a
new universe identical to your own, up to the point at which you
flashed back.

                 Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #216
Date: 10 Dec 84 1227-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #216
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Dec 84 1227-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #216
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Dec 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 216

Today's Topics:

      Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Asprin & Goulart & Gernsback,
      Films - A Modest Proposal & Dune (3 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mikey@trsvax.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>  *
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 12:53:00 MST

There were robot stories that took place after the death of Susan
Calvin that explained the vanishing of robots on Earth, but not on
the outer colonies.  There are inconsistencies, but the presence or
lack of robots is not a major one.  Also, in TBM I detected just a
trace of anti-robot sentiment that supposedly became widespread by
the time of the three Elija Bailey novels and the short story that
went with them.

mikey at trsvax

------------------------------

From: mikey@trsvax.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn -> -> tieins
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 12:57:00 MST

Remember Bel Aarvdin (sp???), the explorer in Pebble in the Sky?  He
is mentioned in the original Foundation, as being a supporter of SOL
for the "Owigin Qwestion".

mikey at trsvax

------------------------------

From: gm@trsvax.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>  *
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 16:57:00 MST

If you have the paperback version of "The Robots of Dawn", look on
the front cover. Directly below the the robot's spread feet, in the
mound of dirt, is a shadowy face of a man. Anybody happen to know
who this is? Baley? Asmiov?

Also, did anyone read the "About the Author" paragraph at the very
end of the book? Very amusing life story of Asmiov. It starts off:

        Issac Asmiov was born in the Soviet Union, much to his
        great suprise....

George Moore                              Tandy System Software
uucp: {laidbak, sco, microsoft, allegra!convex!ctvax}!trsvax!gm
arpa: cu-arpa.trsvax!gm@Cornell.ARPA

------------------------------

From: esmith@uok.UUCP
Subject: Mything Persons (Non-Spoiler)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 13:44:00 MST

  Mything Persons  by  Robert Asprin

  I enjoyed the book, but I didn't think it was as good as the
others in the series.  I will call it a must for the Myth Adventure
fan.  Once again Bob has put our faithful heroes in complicated and
humorus situations.  To sum up in a nutshell: Light reading, (about
one and a half hours, with constant interruptions), good humor, and
just overall good fun.  I liked it.  What can I say I'm easy to
please...

 "would you just turn the damn thing off!!!!"

 -Eric L. Smith
 !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith

------------------------------

From: esmith@uok.UUCP
Subject: Help - Ron Goulart books
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 13:49:00 MST

 Would someone out there in Netland give me a list of the books,
short stories, etc. by Ron Goulart.  I picked up a couple of books
from the local used bookstore, by him and had a lot of fun reading
them.

  "I tried shoving a wiener in the warp drive..."

 -Eric L. Smith
  !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith

------------------------------

From: rwl@uvacs.UUCP (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 17:35:48 MST

   Evelyn Leeper writes of Hugo Gernsback:

>      He didn't invent science fiction.  Whether you want to claim
> that science fiction was invented by Jonathan Swift (or even
> earlier) or are one of those who dates (modern) science fiction
> from Shelley, Verne, and Wells, you have to admit that Gernsback
> did not invent it.  He didn't even write much of it--his one
> surviving work is RALPH 24C41+--and a pretty bad novel it is.  He
> didn't seek out and promote the best authors--Wells and Stapledon
> were not regular contributors to AMAZING.  What he did do was to
> give science fiction its own name--and its own ghetto.  Far from
> performing a service for the genre, he acted in such a way that it
> has taken almost fifty years to even attempt to recover from the
> damage he did.

   Look, I love science fiction; I've been reading it since I was a
child.  In the past I have found myself attempting to justify it to
people in terms of its merits (some of which just can't be found in
"mainstream" fiction).  However, I don't see any point in crying
over lost chances for critical review of, say, Asimov's "Nightfall"
in the New Yorker.  It is not a story of human passions; it is not
the kind of fiction that can help you to understand your own
feelings about the drama of human existence.

   Rather, it is a story which takes you beyond that realm.  It
offers an alien perspective that can inspire new ways of piecing
together your own puzzles of meaning and metaphor.  For me, this
exemplifies what SF has to offer to the literary community.

   I'm glad to see that the literary community is getting a chance
to experience what SF has to offer now.  But I don't think it was
poor Hugo's fault that SF has been locked in a ghetto.  It was
inevitable; Gernsback was merely a mirror of that phase of SF
history.  Science fiction was not all that literarily acceptable at
that time because, as a genre it didn't exist.  Not even in the
minds of its occasional authors.

   First, look at the Names mentioned in the previous article.
Swift?  He wasn't a science fiction writer; he was a social
satirist.  Verne?  A writer of adventure stories; sometimes they
involved "futuristic" hardware.  Wells?  In a biography I read some
time ago, it was noted that the science fiction stories were not the
works for which he wanted to be remembered; he was principally a
mainstream author by his own definition.

   Lets face it, there was a time in the twenties and thirties when
science fiction was just not that good.  "Ralph 124C42+" was a
middle-of-the-road example.  I wouldn't blame reviewers for not
being able to seriously critique a wet-dream stories of BEM's
drooling over the quivvering bodies of naked virgins.  But this was
a phase.

   Science fiction of the forties began to rediscover the idea of
human beings in fiction.  By the time of the 1960's several authors
had established themselves as standard-bearer's of the genre.  Even
then, SF hasn't done much to prove itself a fiction of human
relevance.  Take, for example the body of Heinlein's work after (or
during) _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_.  I'm sure I'll be flamed for
this, but I think that Heinlein's juvenile novels (e.g.,
_Have_Space_Suit_Will_Travel_, _Red_Planet_, etc) have more human
feeling to them than his later, supposedly more urbane and worldly,
cyclopediae like _Time_Enough_For_Love_.

   I think that SF would have been in a ghetto for decades with or
without Gernsback.  By the time SF came to take itself seriously
(after the BEM phase) it was dealing with matters of cosmic scope;
this was not something that a member of the literary establishment
was going to appreciate any more than the average person.  I've
always considered myself an elitest because I could appreciate
science fiction.  Not everyone can, and this is a matter apart from
differing tastes.

   Now that we have all, to some extent learned to be "shock wave
riders", science fiction is not all that hard to comprehend.  Even
better, it is gaining the personal relevance that separates a novel
from hack work.  I think Hugo and the BEM's played their part and
now that part is over.  Let's at least give him some credit for
"science fiction" (he was thinking of calling it "scientifiction"
[yuk!]).

   (WHEW!  Just had to get that off my chest.)

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: A Modest Proposal
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 00:16:06 MST

That last modest proposal wound up rather more modest than I had
planned.  Let's try again.

Having just seen a different version of "Once Upon a Time in
America", I was reminded of someone's earlier posting which
postulated what a Star Wars movie directed by Sergio Leone would be
like.  How about a Star Wars movie directed by Orson Welles?  Why
not
                *******************************************
                *                                         *
                *            Citizen Darth!               *
                *                                         *
                *******************************************

Luke could be dissastisfied with what he knows about his father, so
he goes on a quest through the galaxy looking for the real Darth
Vader.  Everyone he meets would give him a different impression of
what Vader was really like.  Welles could even do a flashback to
Vader's death and reveal that his last word was really "Rosebud".
Think how hard it will be for even a Jedi like Luke to turn up a
sled out of all the garbage in the universe.  Perhaps the Emperor's
true hold on Vader was that he held the sled for ransom!  Perhaps
Annakin Skywalker will be unable to become one with the Force (or
whatever) until the sled is recovered.  Maybe Han Solo could be
sorely tempted to sell the sled for megacredits to some
intergalactic souvenir collector.  (Extra credit trivia question:
Who currently owns Rosebud?)  We might have something here.  (Or,
perhaps, not...)
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: Re: Dune - Article in Forbes Magazine.
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 21:41:57 MST

A few inaccuracies here.  David Lynch ("Eraserhead", "The Elephant
Man") is the director, not Rafaella de Laurentiis, who is the
producer.  She previously produced "Conan the Barbarian", and
stories from the set indicate that she is an active line producer,
not a figurehead.

$40 million for the production may be a slight exaggeration.  The
$40 million for distribution almost certainly is.

The "10 films in 18 months" almost certainly refers to the total
output of De Laurentiis' new studio in North Carolina (strange but
true).  Michael Cimino is, at this very moment, filming "The Year of
the Dragon" (a film about Chinese tongs) there, and suffering from
an acute shortage of Oriental extras.  As the output of the studio,
10 films might be an overestimate, but it wouldn't surprise me too
much if they managed it.  Of course, many of the films will be cheap
trash.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: tim@reed.UUCP (Flanagan)
Subject: DUNE -- accurate information
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 17:20:11 MST

I have been looking forward to DUNE for some time, and have spent a
good portion of my spare time and cash on anything likely to tip me
off to the status of the finished product.  Here is some of the more
relevant data:

Yes, Dino De Laurenti$ supplied most of the funds for production and
promotion.  He is, however, leaving the actual management of the
film to his daughter, Rafaella.

Early in production, the film was moved to Cherobusca (?sp?)
studios in Mexico, primarily for financial reasonses as well as the
predominance of large, open, undeveloped expanses with nothing but
SAND all over them.

Approximately 3,000 (!!) extras were cast for the final battle
scene. ( this was possible, I gather, due to the supply of cheap
mexican labor).

DUNE cost about $40 million.

Toto is producing, arranging, and performing most of the soundtrack,
with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra at their disposal.  (As a matter
of fact, I bought the soundtrack yesterday, and it is much better
than one might expect... The two groups of performers (rock-group
and symphony orchestra) work very well together, and at no time does
one feel like he is listening to the next top-40 hit, but rather a
fine piece of mood-setting music)

The only person who I have had contact with who actually went to one
of the preview screenings (ahh, to live in L.A.), had this to say:
No, there were NOT any big disappointments.

          Yes, it would behoove one greatly to have read the book
          because the time element forced David Lynch to "jump into"
          the plot, leaving very little early develpment for those
          not familiar with the characters. (I suspect this may be
          the reason so many have come away from the screening
          disappointed) The final battle scene (with Fremen on
          sandworms, et al) is FANTASTIC.

Now, I don't know how good this guy's judgement is, and I haven't
seen the film myself, so bear in mind that this is only what I've
heard.

If anybody has other information, please post it.  If anyone out
there knows ANYTHING about the costumes(i.e. materials or processes
used, approximate costs, design details, etc.) send the information
(or appropriate addresses where I should inquire) to me.  I am
hoping to construct an accurate Feyd Rautha costume, and a friend
and I are looking closely at the Atreides uniforms (notice the
borders at the top of the collar and the hawk patches---beautiful
work...difficult to reproduce accurately).

                Till I see the film, I remain:
                        Suspensefully waiting,
                        Tim ("I spent $250 on my ST II uniform")
                        Flanagan

------------------------------

From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Re: Dune (& Dino)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 22:46:12 MST

On the other hand, Dino has done the excellent "Ragtime" adaptation
(if ANYONE could truly have adapted it), and THE DEAD ZONE, which is
one of the most underated movies of last year -- much better than
the book.  So it looks like a toss-up to me.

Oh, Frank Herbert says it's great, but then he also has contracts
for the options on the next score of Dune movies, and is in trouble
for back taxes in our ol' state of Washington (talk about the White
Plague... the Worst Plague is tax people :-) ).  Also, he keeps
hinting that Lucas plagarized from Dune in the STAR WARS movies.
Frank should be so lucky.
                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax}
-- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai times three
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 22:18:21 MST

Well, Mr. B. Banzai and his merry band of new wave musicians and
particle physicists is out again at several cities... and after my
third sitting, I still find it one of the best movies of the years.

You've heard me yack about this all year.  However, I took two
people with me (my parents -- they heard an excellent review on ALL
THINGS CONSIDERED), without telling them anything about the plot.  I
just told them it was pretty fragmented and could be somewhat
confusing.

Well, they loved the movie -- Dad thought it was probably a good
successor for the saturday matinees of the past (I remember a kid
behind me whispering "Watch out, Buckaroo!" behind me) -- and
neither of them thought it confusing.  They suggested that, being
forewarned, they had payed closer attention than they usually do,
and that made all the difference.

So, if you've been scared away from this movie due to claims that it
is incomprehensible -- take heart.  You're missing one heck of a
treat in this movie.
                        Any opposing views may simply go to hell.

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax}
 -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #217
Date: 10 Dec 84 1255-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #217
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Dec 84 1255-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #217
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Dec 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 217

Today's Topics:

        Art - Giger,
        Books - Asimov & Ellison & Kurtz & Niven (3 msgs) &
                Powers & Gernsback,
        Films - Dune (2 msgs) & Buckarro Banzai & Starman
        Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle)
Subject: Re: H.R. Giger's Works
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 10:54:50 MST

> .... I would like to know if anyone knows where I can get some
>sort of collection of the works of H.R. Giger

>He has also done some illustrations for the new movie 'Dune'.

His original collection 'Necronomicon' is now out of print.  Copies
on the collectors market now go for upwards of $100.  His work for
'Dune' was done for Alexandro Jodorowski quite a few years ago when
Jodorowski was going to do it.  I hear David Lynch decided not to
use him for the upcoming version (they're both painters, and each
have their own unique style) He has produced a book of his work on
'Dune' for Jodorowski, but it too, may be out of print by now.
Other examples of his work exist in various forms, he's been in
Penthouse, Heavy Metal, and I think, OMNI.  His Alien was made into
a 1 foot tall 'action figure' by Kenner, but I think this too is no
longer available.  One new item that just came out: a 3-D tee shirt
with Alien Jr. bursting out of the chest.  It's put out by a company
that produces some very gross 3-D tee shirts, (hatchets stuck in
them, guts hanging out, etc.) and they're brand new products.

Keith Doyle
{ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd
"You'll PAY to know what you REALLY think!"

------------------------------

From: mikey@trsvax.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoi
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 17:30:00 MST

After the death of Susan Calvin, people of earth became more
anti-robot.  The major inconsistancies were that shortly after her
death, there were little or no robots on earth.  This may be
cyclical flucuation, but if the Bicentenial man had that much affect
on people, then there should have been more robots.

mikey at trsvax

------------------------------

From: chabot@amber.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: Harlan Ellison essays (book recommendation)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 08:01:36 MST

I'd like to recommend _Sleepness_Nights_in_the_Procrustean_Bed_, a
book of rare and previously unreprinted essays by Harlan Ellison,
edited by Marty Clark.  It contains the Introduction to the "Harlan
Ellison Issue" of F&SF, some speeches and program book essays from
WorldCons, several essays normally rather hard to find for some of
us since they were originally published in Los Angeles magazine,
Video Review, and other magazines.  Two of the items come from SFWA
speeches: these show briefly that Ellison does know quite a good
deal about the movie business and its attitudes towards writers.
There is also an account of Ellison's participation in the March on
Montogomery in '65; this article is a chilling time-capsule/
time-bomb of the hatred and fear in Alabama concerning the Civil
Rights marches.

This volume may be a bit hard to find (I only saw it accidentally in
a bookstore I normally don't go to), so here's some publishing info
from the back cover: The Borgo Press, Distributed to the trade by
Newcastle Publishing Co., Inc., P.O. Box 7589, Van Nuys, CA 91409.
It has a copyright date of 1984.  ISBN 0-89370-270-6.  To interested
Cambridge Mass folk, I found mine in the Paperback Booksmith in
Harvard Square in the science fiction section.

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1984  13:03 EST (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: New Deryni Novel by Katherine Kurtz

        Having read, "The Bishop's Heir" some weeks back, I can give
it a recommendation.  Buy it.  The only thing wrong with it is that
once you finish it, you'll have to wait an indefinite period for the
next one to come out.

------------------------------

From: mwm@ea.UUCP
Subject: Re: Woman of Steel, etc.?
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 14:23:00 MST

I don't know if anyone has prodded Niven, but I've got something
from uokvax!jab that delves into the problem. He also considers the
problems of raising a superkid from birth, as opposed to from
already being potty trained (For the Kent's sake, I *hope* Clark was
potty trained when they adopted him!).

        <mike

------------------------------

From: emjej@uokvax.UUCP
Subject: Woman of Steel, etc.?
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 15:34:00 MST

Apologies if someone has thought of this before, but in view of the
debut of the *Supergirl* movie, I can't help asking: has anyone
prodded Niven to write a sequel to "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex?"
I would imagine that potential suitors would be scared off quickly
if they but thought...
                                                James Jones

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1984  19:27 EST (Sat)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Clarke's Law

        Well, if we're going to bring up Clarke's Law, let's not
forget Niven's Converse to Clarke's Law:

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from
technology.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 84 13:48 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Tim Powers, Dinner at Deviant's Palace

Dinner at Deviant's Palace -- Tim Powers

Tim Power's third (fourth?) book is just out.  I read it in two late
night sessions over this weekend.  I think this is his best written
book to date, although I admit I liked the premise of "The Drawing
of the Dark" best.

TDotD was about a conflict in the 14th(?) century between the
empires of the East and West.  The East was marching on Vienna to
destroy either the Western King (Fisher king of Grail legend) or the
Western Heart.  The western heart was the oldest brewery in the
world, and when the latest batch of beer matures (once every 600
years or so) it will revive the West.  I like the idea of Western
civilization being based on beer.

                    Mild Spoiler

DaDP is set in future LA.  Aftermath of global war, with depressing
civilization left.  There are a few bits of technology left, but
characters were surprised to find functional firearms, or internal
combustion, for example.
     There is a cult, Jaybush, formed by Norton Jaybush, where the
members take Sacrament where they have parts of their individuality
taken from them and 'consumed'.
     The hero is a 'redeemer' who rescues and deprogramms cult
members.  The story is his 'quest' to rescue a girl he once knew,
and the truth behind the cult and its relationship to the Deviant's
Palace.  They started to sneak in clues about the cult early but I
figured it out very late in the book, in what seemed an abrupt
revelation.
     I think the pacing in the book could have been better, but all
in all, its one of the best out lately.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  5 Dec 1984 05:28:30-PST
From: minow%rex.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Editorial on Hugo Gernsback

I must take exception to several of Evelyn Leeper's statments on
Hugo Gernsback.  First, the title (and hero) of his novel was named
"Ralph 124C41+" -- to explain why would be a spoiler.  I read the
book when I was a kid, and don't remember it as being much worse
than anything else I was reading.

Evelyn claims that, after Amazing Stories started, science fiction
disappeared from the "mainstream" magazines.  I don't thing this is
true.  Many of Heinlein's stories were first published in McCalls,
Colliers, and the Saturday Evening Post.  These stories form the
core of his "future history."  Indeed, the classic "The Green Hills
of Earth" was published by either Colliers or SEP.  I first read
Heinlein's novels when they were serialized in the Boy Scout's
magazine "Boy's Life."  (Now you know why there were Boy Scouts in
Farmer in the Sky.)

The rise of Science Fiction specialty magazines in the 50's expanded
the market for authors, without necessarily increasing the quality.
With an assured market of fans who would read anything, authors
didn't have to compete for space in general audience magazines
(which didn't survive the advent of television).

The fans grew up, still hungry for SF, and became an important
market force -- I remember reading that SF comprises 15% of all
paperback fiction.  So, it isn't suprising that genre authors are
reviewed in newspapers and mainstream magazines.

While I wouldn't give too much credit to Gernsback, he did feed
quite a few authors who would otherwise have to work for a living,
and, by giving them an opportunity to develop their talents, gave
them the chance to break into mainstream markets.

------------------------------

From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Re: Dune & The Kiddies [:-)]
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 23:13:15 MST

> Check out the children's section of your local bookstore. It
> should have The Dune Storybook and The Dune Activity Book, both
> with pictures from the movie.

Yup, just what every parent wants when they get home from work: 20
little buggers dressed up in wetsuits running at them with steak
knives screaming: "JIIIIHAAAAAAD!!"

                "They dared to call me mad!  ME!  HA! HA! HA!...."

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax}
-- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  4 Dec 1984 08:08:21-PST
From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: EX

Regarding Inconsistencies in DUNE:

My wife has always wondered why, with water so scarce, spice beer
and spice coffee were plentiful. How were they made?

Also, while looking for DOON (?) (which I didn't find), I saw a DUNE
calendar, with scenes from the movie. (It didn't say so, but it was
copyright DiLaurentis Procductions, and the scenes were obviously
photographs.)

The calendar included NO scenes of Makers!! It included few scenes
that would REALLY tell the quality of the movie. (I guess they're
holding these until the movie comes out.) Most scenes were
close-ups, and the set design is excellent. Stillsuits are not quite
what I imagined, but they are good.

The scenes I remember are:
   One panorama of a city at night; good but I don't know what city.

   The Gom Jabbar: the box is more ornate; Paul does not (yet) have
the knife at his throat, but the Reverend Mother and the background
are almost what I imagined. Excellent.

   Scene of the move to the palace in Arrakis; good.

   Scenes of Fremen, inside (w/ stillsuits open) and outside (w/
stillsuit masks and gloves in place.

   Fremen holding crysknives high (welcoming Paul?). Good.

   Baron Harkonnen (?) in a stillsuit. Too thin! No suspensors to
hold his fat. (Maybe it wasn't the Baron but who would it be in that
case?)

   The Emperor on his throne, holding court. Very ornate and
decadent.

In general, it looks quite good, but none of the critical scenes
were there. I guess we'll have to wait.

Steve Kovner

I must wait.
Waiting is the time-killer.
I will wait the time;
I will let it pass by me and through me
Until the movie is here.

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner
ARPA:  kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: gtaylor@lasspvax.UUCP (Greg Taylor)
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai times three
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 84 07:22:35 MST

moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) writes:
>So, if you've been scared away from this movie due to claims that
>it is incomprehensible -- take heart.  You're missing one heck of a
>treat in this movie.

After having hung on for who knows how long waiting for it to wander
into the Maul cinema, I gotta agree. If anything, the strong sense
that I had is that the script writers themselves had great fun
writing the thing, the actors really enjoyed themselves, and then
the studio people saw the rough cuts and laid a brick, sending some
poor hapless smurf scurrying into the editing room with instructions
to make it more linear. Perhaps if they'd adopted the "Repo Man"
school of PostModern editing (Pastiche is the name of the game,
don't be afraid to *let* the movie unroll in the little world it has
created for itself), this would have been truly transcendant.

A diamond in the rough, definitely.  Any film that opens with a
Marvin Gaye quote in the middle of a desert test *can't* be all bad,
niet waar?

Greg

------------------------------

From: chin@ucbvax.ARPA
Subject: Starman review
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 20:52:19 MST

This was gleamed from a "sneak preview", so some of it may change by
the time Starman actually is released.

Rating:  3.5/4

Synopsis: Starman is billed as a "Science Fiction Love Story".  Jeff
Bridges plays an alien who takes up the Voyager probe's invitation
to visit earth, is shot down, and clones a human body by analysis of
chromosomes in some hair.  This body is a replica of that of the
husband of a recently breaved widow, played by Karen Allen.  The
story is about the many humorous/touching/suspensful (in that order)
episodes the two encounter as the Starman enlists Karen Allen's help
in driving to a rendevous with his mother ship.  Allen of course
gradually falls in love with the Starman along the way.  (Note: I
didn't put a spoiler warning for the above because it does not
detract anything from the movie).

Critique: This is the movie that Close Encounters tried to be, but
failed.  It's an ET for adults (no cutesy aliens ala Speilburg/Lucas
here).  Special Effects are minimimal and used only in appropriate
situations.  The acting by Bridges and Allen is very good.  The
script is spotty with some great humorous skits but interspersed
with some really hokey lines (e.g. the Starman states that the best
quality of humanity is that "you are at your best when things are at
their worse" which elicited an unintended chuckle from the
audience).  Although the plot is completely predictable, the love
story is still quite believable largely through the superior acting
of the two principles.  Unfortunately, all the other parts are
completely cardboard, ranging from a trigger-happy, totally inhumane
military officer, to an eccentric, bleeding-heart-liberal scientist
(contrasted with stereotype scientists in white lab coats).  This is
a science fiction film with a large human element for people that
like warm humorous love stories and not Special Effects for its own
sake.
                                        David Chin
                                        ucbvax!chin
                                        chin@BERKELEY

------------------------------

Date: 05 Dec 84 17:01:52 PST (Wed)
Cc: sra@mit-xx
Subject: Starfleet Technical Manual
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

   I've seen it (not a bad Christmas present for an sf fanatic), but
my major impression is that it's firmly based on the old series, and
incorporates little or nothing of the progress (no flames, please)
made in the movies.  I expect it was written before the movies, but
it hasn't been kept up to date.  So don't expect to keep up with the
background of the Star Trek world by reading it.

   As for 3-D chess, I can't remember any mention of it -- but then,
I wasn't looking for it.

                                Alastair

PS Almost forgot: I haven't seen the manual very recently.  Does
anybody know whether updated versions are available or planned?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #218
Date: 10 Dec 84 1326-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #218
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Dec 84 1326-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #218
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Dec 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 218

Today's Topics:

       Books - Adams & Bradley & Brunner & Padgett (2 msgs) &
               Vance & Wolfe & The Flying Sorcerors &
               Gernsback,
       Films - 2010 & Supergirl
       Television - Star Trek 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 1984  03:31 EST
From: GZT.FORD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #214

        Although I do have reservations about the book, I can not
quite agree with Jeff Bowles's "best line" quote.  The book contains
much typical Adams- humor, (i.e. hilarious at times) but it is
spread a bit thin.  I think this is due largely to the nature of
this book: it is a collection and resolution of most (but not all)
of the loose ends left from the first three.  It is as if the
previous book (Life, the Universe, and Everything) told that Ford,
Arthur, and everyone lived happily ever after, and this book is for
those folks who want to know the details of how, why, and with whom.
The overall style is slightly different, (difficult for me to put my
finger on exactly how) but the old Adams touch is there.
        This book semms to be a general rapping-it-all up, but as I
said, there are still loose ends left to be explored.  It has been
determined that Agrajag will be killed in yet another life by
Arthur, but it didn't happen in this book.  Adams even says in one
of the last pages of this book, "...we can talk about why it's
interesting later."  Will there be another?  Since trilogy doesn't
mean three books, who knows what it does mean?  But I hope Douglas
Adams finds some new ideas, and maybe even a plot for his next work.
        And in sumary: Not quite up to par with the first three, but
an enjoyable HHGTG-style adventure for those who follow the series.
Anyone who REALLY knows where his towel is will enjoy it at least as
much as I did.

                Happy Hitchhiking!!
                        -=] Michael Ditto (FORD%OZ@MIT-MC) [=-

------------------------------


Return-Path: <nancy@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 14:51 EST
From: Nancy Connor <nancy@SCRC-CUPID.ARPA>
Subject: Darkover

I tried to mail this to just mjjil, but apparently his computer
wasn't receiving mail.  I saw another request for it, so I thought
I'd send it to the list.

As far as I know, this is the complete list of Darkover books in the
proper order.  If anyone tells you about one I've missed, I'd
appreciate it if you would let me know.

Darkover Landfall                       The landing
Hawkmistress                            MacAran gift, King Carolin
Two to Conquer                          Signing of the Compact
The Spell Sword \  The Ages of Chaos    Don't remember the topic
Stormqueen /                            Matrix war and genetic
                                        tampering
The Shattered Chain \  Same time        Free Amazons - their point
                                        of view
The Forbidden Tower /                   Story about the Towers
Thendara House                          Free Amazons - Terran point
                                        of view
Star of Danger                          Kennard and Larry meeting
The Winds of Darkover                   Larry's fostering
The Bloody Sun                          Don't remember the topic
Heritage of Hastur                      About Sharra worship
The Sword of Aldones - re-written as Sharra's Exile  ""
The Planet Savers                       Darkovan & Terran working
                                        together
The World Wreckers                      Terrans try to wreck Darkover

Anthologies (all times in Darkover's history)
Sword of Chaos
The Keeper's Price

Other books by MZB

Hunters of the Red Moon         Shapechanging hunters steal people
                                to conduct a hunt
The Survivors                   The survivors of ^ go on another
                                mission
Falcons of Narabedla            Strange book about people who use
                                sorcery
The Mists of Avalon             About the women of King Arthurs' time
The House Between Worlds        Gateways between strange worlds
Sword & Sorceress               Short stories about women fighters &
                                witches
Chains of Isis (?)              Women rule a world with men
                                considered pets
Survey Ship                     People being chosen for an elite
                                mission

Grayhaven                       Haven't read these yet
Endless Voyage
The Brass Dragon
Door Through Space
Seven From the Stars

        -Nancy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 11:13 CST
From: "Brett D. Slocum" <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Networks and Science Fiction

Susser:
    I think the book you might be refering to is SHOCKWAVE RIDER by
John Brunner.

                     (**** CAPSULE REVIEW ****)

     The US (or maybe the world) has a huge network that everyone
has access to through phones, terminals, etc.  Each person has an
identification number that serves as social security number,
telephone number, income tax number, bank account, etc.  You must
petition the government in order to move, and then your new location
is recorded in the network (read government) databanks.  The main
character is a guy who knows the network so well that he can change
his identity and ID number and cause all sorts of trouble using
viruses (virii?).  He lives outside of the system, and changes his
identity whenever the government gets too close to finding him.

I would recommend it.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  6 Dec 1984 20:58:09-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: "Lewis Padgett"

> From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa (Judith Tabron)
> P.S.  Did you know that "Lewis Padgett" is a pseudonym for Henry
> Kuttner and C.L. Moore as a writing team?

Well, sort of... "Lewis Padgett" was sometimes Kuttner and Moore
together, sometimes Kuttner alone, and sometimes Moore alone. Most
of the Padgett stories are collaborations, however, as are some of
the stories by-lined "Lawrence O'Donnell" (most are Moore alone).
To confuse the issue even more, many of the stories credited to
Kuttner alone that were written after he and Moore got married are
actually collaborations!

See the entries for Kuttner and Moore in Peter Nicholls' SCIENCE
FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Dec 84 11:25:06 EST
From: rajunas@DEC-HUDSON
Subject: Lewis Padgett's "The Fairy Chessmen"

Speaking of Lewis Padgett (Kuttner and Moore), and of chess
variants, there was a long story (novella?)  that I read many years
ago and would like to find again.  It was in a library book
(hardcover) titled "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and The Fairy Chessmen."
The book consisted of just those two stories, which were quite long.
I can't remember anything about the first story, "Tomorrow and
Tomorrow," but I recall quite a bit about "The Fairy Chessmen."
Supposedly fairy chess consisted of variants of ordinary chess, with
different rules, pieces, and boards, and players therefore had to be
very mentally flexible to succeed at fairy chess (I have never heard
of fairy chess elsewhere).

The world of the story was deadlocked in a massive war of two
superpowers, very evenly matched until someone from the future comes
back and slips one side some advanced science, in the form of an
equation whose applications defy currently understood physics.
Unfortunately, study of this equation and its applications drives
scientists and mathematicians mad.  The good guys (via espionage)
get the equation, and get the bright idea of finding a mathematician
who plays fairy chess (figuring he would be mentally flexible enough
to retain his sanity).  There are complications and subplots, such
as temporally disoriented individuals who had the misfortune to be
conceived near alien artifacts, double agents, and Ridgeley, the man
from the future.  In the end, those of our heros who have managed to
remain sane face the prospect of a peaceful and united world and can
contemplate the exporation of space.

It has been many, many years since I read this story (I was in high
school).  I would very much like to read it again to see if it was
as good as my adolescent mind thought it was.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 14:12:06 pst
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Jack Vance pen names

> I like a lot of Jack Vance, too.  Have you read any of his
> mainstream/detective novels (sorry, don't recall the pseudonym)?

        He normally write the mysterys under his real name of "John
Holbrook Vance", "Jack Vance" could technically be considered a
pseudonym. He has also written under the "Ellery Queen" house name
"The Four Johns", "The Madman Theory", and "A Room to Die In". For
those of you with access to HUGH libraries, maybe you can find

        "Take My Face" as Peter Held
        "Isle of Peril" as Alan Wade

Although I wouldn't hold my breath. I have only seen one each of
those books, and I am looking for them through rare book dealers.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 84 16:53:08 EST
From: GOLD@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: plan(e)t engineering

Plan(e)t Engineering is available through the NESFA press for 13
dollars through:

                NESFA Inc.
                Box G MIT Branch Post Office
                Cambridge, MA
                02139

OR: you can go to Boskone the weekend of Feb.15-17 and buy it
directly!  I highly recommend the convention, it is a large, well
run regional at the Copley Marriott Hotel.

------------------------------

Date: 06 Dec 84 18:29:57 PST (Thu)
Subject: Flying Sorceres
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

Folks,
        What with all he recent fuss over Harlan, and the recent
discussion of Niven & Gerrold's 'The Flying Sorceres', I'm suprised
that one of the lovliest puns in the book has been ( I think... )
overlooked.

        There is a point in the book where the nuclear pile in
Purple's egg goes boom.  Lant later describes this event to Purple
as the egg 'being struck by the wrath of Elcin, the tiny god of
thunder and loud noises.'  Now who do you suppose that could be a
take-off on ?
                        Dave Godwin
                        UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Thu 6 Dec 84 19:23:38-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Why honor Hugo Gernsback?

It's already been pointed out that sf was not a "respected" field of
literature before AMAZING.  (Using Jules Verne as an example is
fallacious; the French to this day take sf a great deal more
seriously as literature than do Americans.)  With good reason.  Some
of that early stuff (including Gernsback's) is enough to make you
barf.

What Gernsback did was spread the gospel of sf.  He began by
printing the occasional "scientifiction" (as he called it) story in
his electronics magazine, and eventually determined there was enough
reader interest to start a magazine devoted solely to such stories.
He helped create and increase that interest.  You must remember that
the pulp era had magazines (and ghettos) for everything: sf,
mysteries, Westerns, romances, "men's fiction," doctor stories, etc.
That was how popular (as opposed to "literary") fiction was being
marketed at the time.

The pulp market eventually died out, with the only such specialty
magazines left the sf magazines and a couple of mystery magazines.
The ghettos remain in just about all those genres, though.  The
problem is that science fiction (and, to some extent, mysteries,
although that's another subject) has outgrown its ghetto, has become
better than pulp fiction.  (Not all of it has, of course.)  The
market is slowly beginning to recognize this, as witness the
best-seller list appearances of so many sf books of late.  But that
will take time.

Back to Hugo Gernsback.  He did not deprive sf of respectability,
nor did he ghettoize it from "real" literature.  What he did was
give it a place in the then-expanding pulp market and allow it to
grow.  Because of the magazines' existence, sf is now almost the
only field in which it is possible to make money by selling short
stories.  (Ask any "mainstream" writer how hard it is to break into
the few paying markets for his fiction.)  For this reason, we have
an exciting, growing field.

That is why we honor Hugo Gernsback.  He gave sf (in this country) a
nursery.  It is hardly his fault if much of the world refuses to
recognize that science fiction has since grown up.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 84 13:13:19 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: 2010 Jupiter Effects
From: Jerry <Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA>

The scenes of Jupiter in the upcoming 2010 should be very realistic
and close to the NASA pictures, mainly because they are computer
generated efx derived from the NASA pictures. Digital Productions
(LA) has done some incredible work on animating the clouds of
Jupiter. They took some NASA/JPL still photos and sweated over the
math for several months and finally got some real nice simulated
time-lapse shots of Jupiter. I understand these will appear several
times as monitor displays, etc. The space ships, etc. will be
standard model shots (still the cheapest way).

~ Jerry

------------------------------

Date: Fri 7 Dec 84 14:43:30-PST
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: /Supergirl/ (V9 #215)

This review complains about Supergirl wasting her time attending
classes as Linda Lee and that the movie in general makes little
sense.  It's easy to explain the things that don't make sense
(below), but much harder to explain the things that do make sense
(sic).  For example, if Supergirl can so easily visit us, why don't
all the people from Argo City do this...?

  | From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP (Peter Reiher)
  |
  | At any rate, the city is kept going by a couple of power sources
  | known as octahedrons.

These power sources are actually omegahedrons, not octahedrons.  I
hope that explains all the other confusing parts of the movie. (:-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 1984  03:00 EST
From: GZT.FORD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Tridimentional Chess (a la Star Trek)

        The "Star Fleet Technical Manual" mentioned in the last
digest does include layout, dimensions, pictures of playing pieces
(same as traditional chess) and rules for play.  The rules basically
are the same as traditional chess, with a few exceptions: The
starting position has changed; some pieces start on the "attack
boards."  The multiple levels are dealt with by allowing a piece
just moved to be placed on any available square in a vertical line
with the traditional destination.  Also the "attack boards" are
small 2 by 2 square boards which can be moved, but only when empty
or occupied by exactly one pawn.  The spoken notation of course
requires modification, as in the Star Trek cliche, "Queen to queen's
level 3."  I have not yet had the opportunity to play, as my board
is still under construction, but I do find it remarkable that "just
a prop" is so well designed and consistent with traditional chess
(Total of 64 squares, similar starting positions, etc.)  By the way,
the official name is "Tridimentional chess."

                        -=] Michael Ditto, (FORD@MIT-OZ) [=-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #219
Date: 11 Dec 84 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #219
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Dec 84 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #219
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 11 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 219

Today's Topics:

               Books - Attanasio & Martin & Powers &
                       Gernsback & A Conundrum,
               Films - 2010 (2 msgs),
               Television - Amazing Tales & Star Trek,
               Miscellaneous - Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 08 Dec 84 14:31:51 PST (Sat)
Subject: A.A. Attanasio - new author
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-icsc>

        I just finished reading RADIX by A.A. Attanasio and felt
compelled to write this immediately. This is his first book
(according to some of the blurbs on the covers), and this first
effort leaves me wondering how he will do in the future.

        The book revolves around a somewhat odd hero, Sumner Kagan,
who lives in the 23rd century after earth has passed through a
stream of radiation called the Line emanating from the center of the
galaxy. Needless to say, this plays havoc with earth's inhabitants,
which now range from badly distorted humans with beetle-like
exoskeletons to god-minds. Sumner becomes entangled in the affairs
of half the world and the story revolves around his deeds...

      I won't go on because just outlining the plot would spoil the
book because I would have to explain almost every detail (there is a
glossary of terms, a biography of the cast, and a time line - all
needed).

        One note: the book is full of imagery; so full that
sometimes it is overburdening (this is not an example of excessive
imagery):

        Patterns of fire circled him - the stars: emblems of all
        directions, the intersections of never and always. In the
        star-patterns he saw the origin: light, the ardor and
        selfishness of It, the chthonic journey, descanting into
        geometry, echoing across the shell of time as language:
        mesons talking atoms into being, molecular communities
        communicating, no end to It, on addition, time, the
        futureless deception, until the final addition, the mindfire
        of consciousness that burns through the drug of dreams and
        anneals the pain of living with the living pain.

        The whole book is filled with such imagery, alternating with
solid plot development and sometimes confused characterization.
Sometimes the characters do things that up until that point, would
not have ever considered. But all in all it is an interesting book.
I would recommend it to anyone looking for something different in
the sf market, even if it is the only book that I have read since
the 7th grade that caused me to seek the dictionary more than once -
even if only to see if the word actually existed.

                                -- Greg Finnegan
                                   finnegan@uci-icsc

p.s. I just saw the review for his new book in the L.A. Times book
review - yes! a sf book, yet alone one from a relatively unknown
author on only his second book! - called "In Other Worlds" (Morrow:
$12.95, 211 pp.). Sounds like even more imagery.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  6 Dec 1984 21:00:25-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: FEVRE DREAM

> From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
> ...Wolfe has done more substantial works (_Fevre
> Dream_ comes to mind), ...

FEVRE DREAM was not written by Gene Wolfe, but by George R. R.
Martin, another writer of high quality. Though an ardent fan of
Martin's work, I had to admit that his weak point (in general) was
in the endings of his stories. With FEVRE DREAM and his subsequent
novel, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, though, he seems to have solved this
problem.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Dec 84 14:48:07-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #215

Tim Powers lovers will be happy to know that his new book, "Dinner
at Deviant's Palace" is out.  It takes place in a post-nuclear war
LA, and as I haven't finished it yet, I can't post a review.  So
far, it appears that his books just keep getting better....

                        wz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 12:04:01 -0200
From: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@Berkeley (Eyal mozes)
Subject: Re: Gernsback and Ghettoization

There is another aspect to this issue which people seem to be
ignoring.  The main reason why SF had to be 'ghettoized' is that it
was one of the last fortresses of Romanticism in literature.

The 19th century was the great era of Romanticism in literature; the
century of Victor Hugo, Edmond Rostand, Walter Scott, and many
others like them.  If you wanted a view of the grandeur of man, a
portrayal of inspiring characters working purposefully to achieve
their goals, and a suspenseful, skillfully constructed plot, you
could find all this in the mainstream literature.  When you have all
that, you don't really NEED science-fiction.

When the 20th century started, this wasn't so any longer.
Mainstream literature was now almost completely under the rule of
naturalism.  Science-fiction became one of the only two places where
readers who still wanted inspiring characters and interesting plots
could find them (the other place was thrillers and mystery fiction);
and they could also find two other things: a refreshingly optimistic
view of the future, badly needed by those whom mainstream fiction
(and, in many cases, real life) has succeeded in depressing; and
"hard-core", thought-provoking scientific speculations.

With this situation, the only way for science-fiction to survive was
to be "ghettoized"; the only other possibility was to become
"legitimate" and "respectable" by being as boring and depressing as
all the rest - which is, in essence, what the "new wave in SF" did
several decades later.

It is interesting to note that the first two great writers of SF
signalled the two different ways it will go. On the one hand, there
was Jules Verne, who, from the start, had all the values good SF has
to offer; the "Golden Age of SF" was, in fact, the Golden Age of the
Verne tradition. On the other hand, there was H. G. Wells, who used
his great ingenuity in plot construction to present stories just as
malevolent and pessimistic, and just as unscientific, as those of
Harlan Ellison and Ray Bradbury.

And today? Now, when, in mainstream literature, what we have is "The
World According to Garp", the traditional values of SF are as
crucial as ever. But now SF is emerging from its "ghetto", and we
can find more and more writers following the Wells tradition (only
in part, though; they do have Wells' depressing pessimism, but not
his interesting plots). It is true that there still are a few
authors who are offering us what SF really has to offer (there is
only one contemporary author I can think of who does it consistently
- James P. Hogan); and, of course, this requires them to remain as
"ghettoized", as ignored by the mainstream, as SF used to be.

It seems, then, that the "ghettoization" of SF was really a great
boon to readers, and we should all thank Gernsback for helping
achieve this.  It's just a pity that it didn't last longer.

        Eyal Mozes

        eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA  (CSNET)
        eyal@wisdom.bitnet              (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 84 08:28:17 EST
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Conundrum

Can you identify the following science fiction classic:

The title of the book refers to a planet, which is the home of a
"chosen people", who are somehow different, somehow better, than the
average person selected at random elsewhere.

The planet is threatened by an evil galactic empire.  The story
revolves around a hero who saves it, with the help of the special
people of course, from the evil empire's dastardly aims.

As the story opens, our hero is about to be tested by someone
immensely older and wiser than he is.  This someone seems to be part
of a secretive force which has, and will continue to, manipulate the
hero to get him into the critical situations to come.

The hero is not on the special planet when this happens.  Not too
far into the story, the hero is betrayed, suffering a setback
leaving him in an apparently hopeless situation.  This actually,
however, puts him with the special people, and the plot proceeds
apace.

All is not sweetness and light with the forces of the evil empire
and its various co- and sub- conspirators.  There is much action as
they jockey for position with each other.

The hero grows in powers/abilities, not only of the sort that make
the special people special, but particular unique powers inherent in
himself alone.  Much of his struggle is to try to understand his own
nature.

There are battles in which the special people perform amazingly
against the supposedly superior forces of the evil empire.  The book
closes over the aftermath of the final battle wherein the hero has
triumphed.  His joy is not complete because someone supposedly very
close to him, but who hasn't really showed up very much in the book,
has been killed in the course of the fighting.

This SF classic, and it is a classic which had a major impact and
whose name is instantly recognizeable to most fans, is NOT Dune.
See if you can guess it.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Dec 84 03:16-EST
From: James M. Turner <RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: 2010, Oddity too

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!

Ok, now that I've gotten that out of my system...

<<<FLAME ON!!!>>>

Allegedly, Clarke and Peter Hyams (the director) stayed in close
contact during the making of the film via electronic mail. I'd love
to see the letter from Hyams to Clarke saying, ``Oh, by the way,
I've decided to totally change the point of your story, and make it
a political statement instead...''

I understand the need for a movie to remove or add plot to tighten
things up, but that movie is just plain awful. The science is worse
than 2001's, 15 years later! The effects were at best mediocre, and
the whole Russian-US business was totally ... words fail me!

More to the point, Clarke's 2010 makes the point that Americans and
Russians can learn to work together, in the movie, we need aliens to
"show us the way". All this does is foster the belief that humanity
is unable to solve it's own problems.

If a heavy-handed ultra-liberal director is going to ruin a film, at
least he should ruin it right.

<<<FLAME OFF (for now...)>>>
                                James Turner
                                lmi-capricorn!jmturn%CCC@MIT-MC
                                physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 84 03:38:19 EST
From: Liz <SOMMERS@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: 2010: "OPEN THE THEATRE DOORS, HAL!"

taaaah
TaaaaH
TAAAAH
TAH-TAH...(tum-tum tum-tum-tum-tum)

Zarathustra spake, but Arthur C. Clarke didn't listen.

The "something wonderful" advertised in Peter Hyams's "2010: The
year we make contact," isn't. The acting is respectable, the special
effects are superb, and the women are handsome.  The plot is lacking
a certain something - challenge.  Can you say overkill, boys and
girls?  we knew you could.

Part of the movie had us holding our breath and hanging on to our
chairs...and we still feel something for some of the characters ( a
whole half hour has passed).  Still, the movie seems to have left a
bad taste in our mouths.  For a long while we considered coming to
spend our 2.50 again....and then "something wonderful" happened.

Something blunderful happened, and we can only blame it on the plot.
This isn't to say that we weren't warned: Peter Hyams has stated
repeatedly that 2010 is not meant to mimic 2001. In a TV interview
last evening, Hyams stated that "2001 asked questions; 2010 answers
them," and this is indeed the case. However, the answers provided by
Hyams were trite and shallow. They didn't answer any of the
questions which we brought to the movie.

HAL, the hacker's wet dream in 2001, is completely re-characterized
by Hyams. The familiar, placatingly threatening nature of HAL's
voice is still with us, but his daredevil personality has been
erased. Dr.  Chandra, HAL's designer is a pathetic collage. He
dresses like a hacker and plays the part of Jane Goodall. Had we
heard one more time about "silicon life forms" we would have tossed
our pop-corn right there.

In conclusion: go stoned, pay half price, and leave before the last
ten minutes. Sometimes anticipating "something wonderful" is better
than experiencing it.

                        Liz Sommers
                        Ron Widman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 84 16:23 PST
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman%SWW-WHITE@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Reply-to: mike@RAND-UNIX.ARPA
Subject: Spielberg's Amazing Tales

    The very strange story on Sf-Lovers about "Twilight Zone"'s
return to the air next season makes me wonder if this isn't really a
reference to Stephen Spielberg's Amazing Tales.  Mr.  Spielberg is
executive producing this episodic television in cooperation with
Universal Pictures.

    The series is planned to have 90 episodes.  Usually series are
guaranteed only a much smaller number of episodes, such as half a
season, if that many.  It may mean that they are interested in
guaranteeing that the show will have enough episodes to go into
repeats.

    Harlan Ellison and Ray Bradbury are reported to be working on
scripts.  David Gerrold said he was contacted through four different
agents to suggest ideas.  Several other screenwriters that I know
were besides themselves with excitement... this is the best thing to
hit television for years if you are a fantasy/horror/sf writer.

    So this is why I was surprised to also hear about a Twilight
Zone series.  Maybe NBC is responding to Amazing Tales?  Maybe the
name got changed to Twilight Zone (... rises from the dead?).  Or
maybe the story was just reported wrong and should have said "... a
Twilight Zone-like series".

Michael Wahrman

arpa: mike@rand-unix.arpa
uucp: ucbvax!randvax!mike
      decvax!randvax!mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84  8:43:58 EST
From: Craig MacFarlane <cmacfarl@BBNCCJ.ARPA>
Subject: star trek

   In original query about 3D chess on Star Trek I asked about rules
of movement(ie. different levels, attack boards...).  I have the
star fleet technical manual(and medical), but it doesn't tell you
about moving pieces on or off the attack boards or to other levels.
   Actually it isn't just 3 level chess because the attack boards
are half levels and can be move under the bottom and above the top.
   I would expect this game to be much less complex than it appears;
there aren't as many squares open to all pieces.  The attack boards
use up a total of 16 squares.
                                        [raig
                                        cmacfarlane@bbnccj
                                        617-497-2972

 PS. "The Courtmartial" is the only show I can remember that has
Spock playing it in the forground...

------------------------------

Date: Fri 7 Dec 84 00:32:34-EST
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: terminator and time travel

I don't know where I heard this theory of time travel -- it may have
even been on SF-Lovers last year -- but it goes something like:

        Nature abhors a time paradox even more than she abhors a
        vacuum.  All time paradoxes will be resolved so as to cause
        the nonexistence of whomever created them.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #220
Date: 13 Dec 84 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #220
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Dec 84 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #220
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 220

Today's Topics:

      Books - Attanasio (3 msgs) & Bradbury & Bradley & Vinge,
      Films - Supergirl & Starman & 2010 & Dune (2 msgs),
      Radio - Lord of the Rings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 84 09:33:40 PST (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: A.A. Attanasio - new author
Cc: finnegan@UCI-ICSC.ARPA

>>This is his first book...

Are you sure A.A. Attanasio is a man?  "He" may well be, but for
some reason my first impression was that the author was a woman.
Even if the L.A. Times reviewer used the male pronoun, I would still
have my doubts: we all know the story about the reviewer who
INSISTED that Andre Norton was a man (or was it James Tiptree Jr.?)!

Perry

------------------------------

From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Date: Wed Dec 12 21:47:42 1984
Subject: Attanasio's RADIX

    >  Patterns of fire circled him - the stars: emblems of all
    >  directions, the intersections of never and always. In the
    >  star-patterns he saw the origin: light, the ardor and
    >  selfishness of It, the chthonic journey, descanting into
    >  geometry, echoing across the shell of time as language:
    >  mesons talking atoms into being, molecular communities
    >  communicating, no end to It, on addition, time, the
    >  futureless deception, until the final addition, the mindfire
    >  of consciousness that burns through the drug of dreams and
    >  anneals the pain of living with the living pain.

        -- From RADIX by A.T. Attanasio, as quoted in this digest

Come on now! Are you seriously suggesting that a sane reader could
get through 300+ pages of the above? Maybe the quote is out of
context (though what context such a quote could exist in is another
matter entirely), but I hope that this does not signal sf's imminent
return to the era of purple prose...

                                Michael C. Berch
                                mcb@lll-tis.ARPA
                                ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 84 20:27:04 PST (Wed)
To: Caro.PA@xerox
Subject: Re: A.A. Attanasio - new author
From: Greg Finnegan <finnegan@uci-icsc>

Well, the back cover of the book had a picture of a man (I hope).

                        -- Greg

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 84 09:51:34 PST (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Gernsback and Ghettoization
To: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA

Eyal,

I found that your message pulled together many of the random
observations I have had about science and mainstream fiction.
Bravo!

However, I cannot accept the categorization of the fiction of Ray
Bradbury as "malevolent and pessimistic, and ... unscientific."  I
agree that some of the fiction that Ray Bradbury wrote is NOT
science fiction -- but that doesn't mean that it is unscientific
(eg. half of the Martian Chronicles, "The Illustrated Man," etc.).
He also wrote science fiction that was scientific: "Fahrenheit 451"
is a pretty darn good science fiction novel!

Some of Bradbury's work is gloom and doom, but certainly not all of
it.  "Something Wicked This Way Comes" was one of the most uplifting
novels I have ever read!  Malevolent?  Do you refer to characters or
the attitude of the author?  I simply can't imagine Bradbury himself
as malevolent, and I see nothing wrong with having malevolent
characters (neither does Bradbury, it would seem, since he has a
knack for creating them!)

An old time Bradbury fan (couldn't you tell?)
Perry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 17:02 EST
From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Darkover

  Actually, The Spell Sword is a direct prequel to The Forbidden
Tower, and is not set in the age of chaos.  The Bloody Sun concerns,
I think, the grandchildren of the characters in those two books.
However, it was written rather early in the series and hence doesn't
fit in with the later books too well.
  Basicly, Bradley's view of Darkover changed as she went along, so
that it might be better to think of a bunch of nearly identical
"parallel" Darkovers (like parallel earths) rather than just one.
(I think she even wrote something of the sort in an introduction to
some edition of one of the books.)  This change is at least part of
the reason why Sword of Aldones was rewritten as Sharra's Exile.
The prequel to them (either? both?), Heritage of Hastur, which is
relatively recent, wasn't terribly consistent with Sword of Aldones
(which was either the first or the second written).
  As to reading order, I would suggest reading the more recently
written books first, as they tend to be better.  (The later ones are
put out by DAW, while the earlier are from ACE).

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 14:19:13 PST
From: Gremban.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: "True Names", a story about a worldnet

        A great story I read just recently involving a worldnet is
"True Names" by Vernor Vinge.  WARNING: this short review is a
mini-spoiler, though what I'll describe is developed in the first
several pages of this novelette.

         The story begins in the near future when most computers are
linked in a worldwide network, and a direct I/O device to the
nervous sytem has been developed.  With this I/O device, computer
wizards are able to enter and (for short periods of time) live in
the computing network as in an alternate reality.  There have grown
up groups of pirates who use witchcraft lore to get around in the
computing world, and band together on the computing plane in covens.
These pirates know each other by their assumed (computed) bodies and
names, and protect their true names as thoroughly as any witch or
warlock did in the past -- for to know someone's true identity is to
have complete power over him.

        The story is about how the protagonist, 'Slippery', who is
one of these warlocks, handles the threat posed by another, who is
bent on taking over the whole world via the computer network.  The
story is far more engrossing than may be represented by this
thumbnail sketch.  A large part of the story is spent developing the
idea of the alternate computing reality and how one gets around in
it.  Despite a few difficulties, this development is excellent, and
it created for me a believable and exciting environment that I got
involved in.  The suspense grows through the story, as the main
characters also grow.  The weakest part of "True Names" may be its
ending, which is satisfactory but a letdown after the high intensity
reached earlier in the story.

        In conclusion, I found this story exciting and
thought-provoking, and I would recommend it to anyone interested in
interactive computing and computer networking.  Much of its depth,
however, may be lost to people unfamiliar with computing.
Unfortunately, although it was published only 3 years ago, it seems
to be already out of print.

Ron

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 12 Dec 1984 05:48:36-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Supergirl

>Date: Fri 7 Dec 84 14:43:30-PST
>From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
>Subject: Re: /Supergirl/ (V9 #215)

>For example, if Supergirl can so easily visit us, why don't all the
>people from Argo City do this...?

        If you recall, Supergirl left the city in a ship designed
and build by whatshisname.  When he told the other citizens of the
city that he intended to go to Earth, or maybe Saturn
(?Jupiter?Venus??) in it, they looked about ready to commit him.

                /BEB

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 84 12:31:02 EST
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: Starman ===> In a word, *TRASH*

    How anyone with any taste at all can enjoy this film is beyond
reason... the film is incredibly *BAD*, and does not provide ANY
sense of wonder. It does provoke much thought regarding how or why
it was ever made, however.
    It is an amateurish attempt to cash in on the same themes which
Spielberg has utilized so well, but it never even begins to come
close. An embarrassing script has made two competent actors look
like they had just gotten their brains removed for fun. Carpenter
directs this mess like it was an inferior episode of "The Dukes of
Hazard;" the film cries out for a new rating system such as PGV
(Parental Guidance, Vomiting suggested).
    On the other hand, if you have a retarded six year old lying
about, bring him to see it.  Maybe Carpenter is aiming for a very
select audience these days.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 11:38:16 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: 2010

After the two messages in V2 #219, I feel like I may be in the
minority, but...

I liked the book.  I didn't like the movie as much.  I agree that
the political statements were incredibly heavy-handed.  The tone of
the book, particularly the comraderie among the Leonov's crew, is
almost entirely gone; a big loss.

HAL, I thought, was as good as ever.  Clarke has realized since 2001
that AI is not likely to produce a real intelligence soon, only a
mimic.  Note in the book that when Chandra and SAL speak, Clarke
points out that SAL understands only a little of what's going on.
As Bowman says in 2001 the movie, "Of course, he's programmed that
way to make it easier for use to talk to him."  HAL remains to my
mind a great SF computer.  And I liked Chandra as well.  Not the
Indian ascetic of the book, more a basement hacker type.  I found
him easy to identify with.

The special effects range from being mediocre (most of the model
work) to spectacular (crossing over to Discovery, most of the
Jupiter animation).  Ironically, in most respects 2001 had better
special effects.  The computer screens in 2010, for example, seem to
be TRS-80s with scrolling garbage.

The real loss in translation from book to film comes with the parts
from Bowman's point of view.  This is, to my mind, the best part of
the book.  The movie couldn't figure out how to show it, so they
left it out.  Introspection is hard to film, particularly if the
introspector isn't corporeal.

In short, 2010 is a flawed work, but it has its moments.

        Mike Caplinger

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 84 13:51:42 PST
From: Pavel.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Review of DUNE, via the comic book (*Spoilers*)

I can't stand it any longer; the hopeful comments in V9 #216 about
how fantastic DUNE the movie will be touched me so much that it has
finally stirred me out of my usual procrastination enough to tell
what I know.

About two weeks ago, the Marvel Comics Official Adaptation of the
DUNE Movie arrived in my local comic book store.  Since it only cost
$2.50 and was drawn by one of my favorite artists, I figured I would
buy it and find out what the movie was going to be like.  It has
been my experience that much of the feel of a movie and essentially
all of the plot can be garnered from these comics adaptations.  A
measure of their loyalty to the screenplay can be found in the lack
of a credit for author; Marvel didn't get to write anything!  In any
case, here's the review:

Micro-Review:
        Barf!

Mini-Review:
        Ugh, Blech, pitooey!  Several orders of magnitude worse than
the worst I could have imagined.

Mainframe-Review:
        DUNE the movie as adapted for comics is as awful a piece of
trash as I have seen in recent memory.  Every piece of subtlety,
complexity or humanity that I could remember from the book has been
ruthlessly cut out, every event in the book has been reduced to its
most sensationalist aspect and every secret and surprise blandly
spoiled through resequencing.  Examples of all of these are
altogether too easy to come by:
        We discover in the very opening scene that the Emperor is
plotting the downfall of everyone.  By the time we first meet the
Atreides, we already know that one of their household was planted
there as a traitor.
        The Baron Harkonnen is not an excessively fat man whose bulk
is somewhat supported by suspensors.  No, no, instead we have a
slightly overweight man with incredible acne who seems to have an
antigravity belt which allows him to fly all over the set and hover
above people to intimidate them.  He also lives on a world which
looks like a conscious attempt to drown in industrial waste; in
fact, we even get to see him enjoying his favorite activity: being
sprayed with the filth from the surface.
        Since audiences are well known to love fight scenes, they
have been spared the majority of the plot between such things; every
thing is rushed except the fights, which are drawn out, overdone and
more numerous than in the book.
        The most outrageous thing in the whole charade, however, is
the ending; how can you take anything as a serious adaptation of
DUNE the book when it ends with a great, planet-covering rainstorm
and beautiful, touching and shallow rainbow?!
        In summary, this looks like the idiotic, sensationalist,
exploitive piece of garbage that I had expected from an endeavor run
by a DiLaurentis and praised by Frank Herbert.  I'd only be
disgusted if this were just some random sci-fi movie, but as it is
I'm angry and resentful; now we'll never get to see a movie of the
book we loved.

                Pavel Curtis
                Pavel.pa@Xerox
                ...!decvax!cornell!pavel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 10:11 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Dune preview

SF-LOVERS scoops the world on this one -- the Boston press preview
isn't even until tonight.  A friend saw it last night at midnight at
Copley Place (70MM, Dolby); the guy teaching my friend's film class
is a projectionist there, and screened it for his students.

Anyway, both my friend and his teacher thought the film was
atrocious.  Comments as I remember them:

* The movie drowns itself in self-consciousness and pretension.
Nothing significant happens that isn't accompanied by portentous
music.  Points are made and remade until they're painfully obvious.

* The script is terrible.  It would have been impossible for David
Lynch (the director) to salvage the film, given such a script.

* Interaction between characters is minimal; no one speaks more than
a few lines to anyone else at any time.  This is caused partly by
the conceit of having characters think out loud.

* The plot is rarely advanced by dialogue or action, but mostly by
these spoken thoughts.

* Many characters (such as Max von Sydow's and Linda Hunt's) appear
on screen just long enough to think something.

* Some of the effects (such as riding the sandworms) are very poorly
done.

One man's opinion;  you might love it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 11:50:56-PST
From: DCOHEN%ECLD@ECLA
Subject: NPR's Lord of the Rings

I'll admit it was clumsy, but I somehow managed to erase my
recording of the fourth episode of National Public Radio's
Presentation of The Lord of the Rings, currently being presented to
the Los Angeles listening community.  Obviously this is bad enough,
but it is worse -- there are several children somewhere else
depending on me for a complete set of these tapes.  Is there some
kind hearted soul out there who will send me a copy of this episode?
Blank tape by return mail and copious thank yous...

David A. Cohen
Computing Information Services, Jef 102
University of Southern California
University Park
Los Angeles, California   90089-1291

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #221
Date: 14 Dec 84 1228-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #221
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Dec 84 1228-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #221
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Dec 1984      Volume 9 : Issue 221

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bishop & Padgett & Powers (2 msgs) &
                    Robinson & The Flying Sorceror & 
                    Conundrum Answered,
            Miscellaneous - Who's Got Rosebud & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 06:33:47 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Michael Bishop's WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE?

Michael Bishop is not known for being a horror writer, but he has
managed to produce (according to the blurb) 'a blood curdling novel
of satanism, illicit lust and supernatural horror' called WHO MADE
STEVIE CRYE? (Arkham House, 1984; 309 pp.).  Some blurbs leave more
unsaid than others, and while this blurb is accurate in what it
says, it is so incomplete and misleading as to be virtually useless
in telling you why you should read this book.  And you should read
this book -- I think it's definitely the best novel Bishop has
produced to date.

Stevenson Crye is a woman in her thirties whose husband has died and
left her to support their two children.  Stevie earns a meager
living by free-lancing articles for newspapers and magazines in the
area around her home town in Georgia.  One day her fancy daisy-wheel
electric typewriter breaks down; when she learns that it will cost
$52 to replace the cable on her ribbon carrier, plus $23 for a
service call if she won't make the 80 mile round trip to the service
center, she screams in fury and frustration.  A friend suggests a
tiny shop in a nearby town that will fix it for $10.67, so she
decides to give it a try (bad news, as any horror fan can tell you).
The young man who 'fixes' her typewriter bears a remarkable
resemblance to John Hinckley...  When Stevie brings the typewriter
home, she discovers that it is possessed: it will type out things
that no one ever typed into it.  Its taste in subject matter runs to
gruesome nightmares, nightmares that Stevie begins to experience in
her sleep and then even when she's awake...  Has her typewriter been
taken over by the ghost of her husband Ted?  Are demons from hell
trying to destroy her mind?  Has the psychopathic typewriter
repairman installed an RS-232 interface?

  'Stop!' she commanded the machine.

   The Exceleriter paused briefly, paragraphed, and rattled off
   another two lines of type.  Then it stopped.

   That the runaway Exceleriter had obeyed her impulsive command
   Stevie found amazing.  Why should it listen to her?  If it
   chose to obey, it did so primarily to demonstrate the paradox
   that IT was in control.  Its halting on her rattled say-so only
   served to heighten her feelings of inadequacy and
   victimization. ...

   Shivering, Stevie approached her desk.  She removed the taped
   pages from the typewriter to see what it had written. ...

   This chapter -- if you could call it a chapter -- ended rather
   abruptly.  Its final words were:

      '"Stop!" she commanded the machine.

      'The Exceleriter paused briefly, paragraphed, and
      rattled off another two lines of type.  Then it stopped.'

If you guessed that this book is somewhat less than serious about
partaking of the horror genre, you're quite right.  (Actually when I
finished STEVIE I was laughing so hard my lungs hurt.) Bishop's
writing has more in common with Gene Wolfe and Philip Dick than with
Stephen King, and the book abounds in nice touches.  The characters
are well drawn and consistent, especially Stevie, a woman totally
out of sympathy with the stereotypically tearful and danger-prone
virgins who populate more ordinary horror novels.

This Arkham edition is illustrated by J K Potter with large numbers
of wonderfully revolting 'photographs', and has an amusing jacket by
Glennray Tutor; not a bad deal for $15.95.  I remember with fondness
a short story called 'Built Up Logically' (which I believe had a
companion piece called (naturally) 'Built Down Logically'; I've lost
my copies, can anyone tell me where to find these stories?) -- if
you liked that story, you'll really like WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE?.

I know, I know, look it up in the Library of Babel,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 84 14:23:30 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: The Fairy Chessmen
From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@XEROX.ARPA>

This story has been on my wish-list for over a decade (my father
remembers it and recommended it to me), but I've never been able to
find it.  That's for the extra title pointer (Tomorrow and
Tomorrow); I'm also told that TFC has appeared under the title
"Chessboard Planet".

Fairy chess is (I thought) a well-known term that describes any
variation on the "standard" rules of chess.  E.g., different shaped
boards, 3-D chess, different pieces (one of my favorites is the
"edgehog", which moves like a queen but must either start or end
each move on the edge of the board), different goals (if you can
capture you must; first player to lose all his pieces wins), etc.
Dover Publications once put out a good book on the subject.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 11 Dec 1984 23:27:40-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Timothy Powers

> From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> Dinner at Deviant's Palace -- Tim Powers
>
> Tim Power's third (fourth?) book is just out.

DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE is neither Tim Powers' third book nor
fourth book; it's his fifth. His five books so far are:

THE SKIES DISCROWNED    (Laser Books, 1976)
EPITAPH IN RUST         (Laser Books, 1976)
THE DRAWING OF THE DARK (Del Rey Books, 1979)
THE ANUBIS GATES        (Ace Books, 1983)
DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE  (Ace Books, 1984)

A lot of people used to knock Laser Books, but they published some
rather interesting stuff. Aside from Powers' first two novels, they
published Jerry Pournelle's first two novels, as well as some solid
--- though admittedly not outstanding --- books by, among others, J.
Hunter Holly, J. F. Bone, Gordon Eklund, Raymond F. Jones, and R.
Faraday Nelson.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 11:14:26-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #219

Well, I must say that I don't like most of Tim Powers' writing. From
the rave reviews I have read I got the idea I should, so I have so
far read Drawing of the Dark, The Anubis Gates, and Dinner At
Deviants' Palace, and not liked any of them. I'm not quite sure why,
because for each of the bad points I can identify in any of these
books I have liked other books with just these failings. For example
in Dinner we have a Philip K Dick-esque work with a plot and premise
that just doesn't stand up to criticism. However, a lot of Dick's
work was like that, but it didn't faze me. Maybe I just couldn't
suspend my disbelief high enough for Powers' mobile Empire State
Building to cruise under, but still... well I don't know. Anyone
else out there actually dislike this stuff or am I the only one?

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Dec 84 09:56:51-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Icehenge, by Kim Stanley Robinson

ICEHENGE is the latest book by Kim Stanley Robinson, author of The
Wild Shore.  In fact, the book is a revised and expanded form of two
earlier stories, one from F&SF (To Leave a Mark) and one from Orbit
21 (On the North Pole of Pluto)

As the blurb will tell you, the title refers to a large artifact
discovered on the planet Pluto, that seems to be of human origin.

Micro Review: I liked the book a lot - more than The Wild Shore -
and am about to read it again.

Review **** Mild Spoiler ****

The book is constructed as three sections, each told from the
viewpoint of a different person.  As in traditional SF, there are
some problems to be solved.  By the end of the book, these problems
are solved, in the sense that the protagonists have reached answers
satisfactory TO THEM.  Unlike traditional SF, the author does not
give us a pretend "external reality", so it is a moot point whether
the answers believed in by the characters are the "right" answers.

It seemed to me that the Icehenge artifact was not the main problem;
it is however a symbol associated with the main problem.  Also,
there is some political action in the book, far more realistic than
that in books like Against Night or The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
(ie, the good guys lose), but that also is not the main plot.

The basic issue, I believe, is the issue of longevity.  In the book,
people live for many centuries, but their ability to remember their
own past has not increased correspondingly.  Several of the
characters are archeologists, but have perhaps more trouble
reconstructing their own early life than in reconstructing tangible
ruins.  The author uses several plot devices to create in the
reader's mind uncertainty about the truth of anything expressed in
the past tense.

Well worth reading

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Thu 13 Dec 84 01:16:18-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
Subject: The Flying Sorcerors (Yngvi subtopic)

        I think I may have uncovered some evidence in the 'yngvi
mystery'.  The following appeared in the FANCYCLOPEDIA II, a
mimeographed fan publication copyrighted in 1959. It was produced by
Richard Eney, with a raft of advisors and assistants, and based on
the FANCYCLOPEDIA produced earlier by Jack Speer.  The following
quotation appears entirely without permission.

    (deleted)

        So there you have it, filled with references to a bygone era
of fandom, with disputes, personalities, and fanspeak which seems as
strange to us today as modern fanspeak seems to todays mundanes.

                                              Peter Trei
                                              oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 84 13:57:35 EST
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Conundrum

As correctly guessed by KLH@MC, the SF classic is World of Null-A,
by A.E.van Vogt.  This novel, which first appeared (in Astounding)
in 1945, was almost solely responsible for the subsequent fad in
learned circles for General Semantics.

    The title of the book refers to a planet, which is the home of a
    "chosen people", who are somehow different, somehow better, than
    the average person selected at random elsewhere.
"The World of Null-A" is Venus, colonized exclusively by
"integrated" (null-A) people.

    The planet is threatened by an evil galactic empire.  The story
    revolves around a hero who saves it, with the help of the
    special people of course, from the evil empire's dastardly aims.
The hero is Gilbert Gosseyn.

    As the story opens, our hero is about to be tested by someone
    immensely older and wiser than he is.  This someone seems to be
    part of a secretive force which has, and will continue to,
    manipulate the hero to get him into the critical situations to
    come.
Gosseyn is to be tested by the Games Machine, (a sentient computer).

    The hero is not on the special planet when this happens.  Not
    too far into the story, however, the hero suffers a setback
    leaving him in an apparently hopeless situation.  This actually,
    however, puts him with the special people, and the plot proceeds
    apace.
He is betrayed by the daughter of the President of Earth, and is
killed.

    All is not sweetness and light with the forces of the evil
    empire and its various co- and sub- conspirators.  There is much
    action as they jockey for position with each other.
etc etc etc

    The hero grows in powers/abilities, not only of the sort that
    make the special people special, but particular unique powers
    inherent in himself alone.  Much of his struggle is to try to
    understand his own nature.
Gosseyn is null-A-integrated -- he also has an extra piece of brain
which gives him certain powers.  He starts the story with a set of
false memories, and spends it trying to find out who he really is.
More than this would give away the plot.

    There are battles in which the special people perform amazingly
    against the supposedly superior forces of the evil empire.  The
    book closes over the aftermath of the final battle wherein the
    hero has triumphed.  His joy is not complete because someone
    supposedly very close to him, but who hasn't really showed up
    very much in the book, has been killed in the course of the
    fighting.
This is part and parcel of the key to the plot, so I won't reveal it
here.

I reread this book and Dune recently, and was forcefully struck by
the parallels.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 10:26 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Who's got Rosebud?

In #216, Peter Reiher asked:

> (Extra credit trivia question: Who currently owns Rosebud?)

As I recall, it was sold to Steven Spielberg at a large auction a
couple of years ago.  It probably cost more than your average sled.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 12:53:03-PST
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Time Travel Theories

My favorite time travel theory is:

        Those who alter the past are condemned to repeat it.

This is from a recent issue of /Fantasy and Science Fiction/ which
had the results of a competition for Science Fiction proverbs.  My
other favorite among the proverbs is:

        Global thermonuclear war means never having to say you're
        sorry.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #222
Date: 18 Dec 84 1136-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Dec 84 1136-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 222

Today's Topics:

                 ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - DUNE ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "Dune".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: witters@fluke.UUCP (John Witters)
Subject: Dune to be shown in lousy theaters?
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 10:42:00 MST

Yesterday I saw a list of theaters Dune will be opening at.  Boy,
was I pissed off!  Basically, Dune has been booked at the WORST
theaters in Seattle.  All but one are suburban multiplexes with
auditoriums the size of a single bowling lane with paper thin walls
between auditoriums.  None of them are equipped with 70 mm
equipment, and only one theater is equipped with an inferior Dolby
stereo system.  All the auditoriums are filthy with God nows how
many years of built up popcorn and soda on the seats and floor.  I
stopped patronizing these places years ago.

I suppose that Beverly Hills Cop will get booked at one of the Super
70mm Cinamascope theaters downtown.  I have nothing against Eddie
Murphy.  I just can't imagine watching him in 12 channel Dolby
stereo on a three story high wide screen.

Is Dune getting similar treatment in other cities?  I'd particularly
like to hear if Dune is showing at a decent theater in Vancouver
B.C. or Portland Oregon.  If Dune turns out to be a good movie, I'll
make a special trip to see it.  Otherwise I'll wait till it comes to
a decent theater in Seattle.
                                      Paul is a son of a witch....

                                          John Witters
                                          John Fluke Mfg. Co.  Inc.
                                          P.O.B. C9090 M/S 243F
                                          Everett, Washington  98204
                                          (206) 356-5274

------------------------------

From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth)
Subject: Dune review in Newsweek "On Campus" edition
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 09:29:42 MST
Reply-to: ihnp4!pur-ee!lewie

> "Big Thud on Arrakis"

> OK, everybody come on in and sit down at the table. The Christmas
> turkey is here, and it's a nice big one: "Dune," ...

another line of interest at the beginning of the article:

> The story of a mammoth battle for liberation on the dust choked
> planet Arrakis, "Dune" has been a science fiction cult favorite
> since its publication in 1965.

Cult favorite???  I think _Dune_ is a little more than a *cult*
favorite (ok, a *lot* more than a cult favorite!).  At least they
didn't call it "sci-fi" (shudder) ...

Anyway, here's the gist of what they say:
(my additional comments in <>'s)

David Lynch proves unwilling to develop the story dramatically and
instead "dumps a load of text" on the viewer hoping they'll catch
on.  Apparently the Emperor's daughter <who is a somewhat important
character towards the end of the book>, just shows up in the
prologue to "dump" a bit of background info on the viewer and is
never seen again.  Even clumsier, though, is how they try to use
Paul's thoughts to fill in details: picture Paul with eyebrows
knitted thinking "Someone is trying to kill me. But who? And why?
Does it have something to do with the spice?"  <Weak, very weak!>

Also, the noble duke comes off as being "handsome, square-jawed and
about as charismatic as a side of lox."  Sting, as Feyd, comes off
as a "grinning psychopath" <which may be easy for Sting to portray,
but not quite what the part calls for!>.  The special effects are
surprisingly tame, and Toto's soundtrack is "an ear-splitting
nightmare."

<end of gist>

Here's to hoping they're dead wrong!

BTW, to anyone who recently saw "Snakedance" (Dr. Who episode):
don't you think the bozo who played the ruler's son (you know, the
dude with the lipstick!) would make an excellant Feyd-Rautha (I
think that's how you spell his name)?

"Will you stand by me against the cold night,
or are you afraid of the Ice?"

Jeff Lewis
{decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie

------------------------------

From: aam@pucc-h (Dwight McKay)
Subject: Dune - Newsweek on campus?
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 12:40:32 MST

I wouldn't take the Newsweek On Campus _Dune_ review too seriously.
After all, on the next page their review of _2010_ starts with:

        "It's nine years later and the space station Discovery..."

I could of sworn Discovery was a space ship in _2001_? :-) :-)

Dwight Douglas McKay, PUCC user services
USENET: {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!Pucc-H:aam
MCI Mail: paintedpony

------------------------------

From: ronin@reed.UUCP (Colon)
Subject: Re: Dune to be shown in lousy theaters?
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 05:43:26 MST

> Is Dune getting similar treatment in other cities?  I'd
> particularly like to hear if Dune is showing at a decent theater
> in Vancouver B.C. or Portland Oregon.  If Dune turns out to be a
> good movie, I'll make a special trip to see it.  Otherwise I'll
> wait till it comes to a decent theater in Seattle.

Here in Portland, the sneak preview of Dune is playing at a theatre
downtown called the Music Box, It isn't the greatest theatre ever
built, but the sound is good and most of the movies with good sound
tracks seems to play thier, (as in Amedias sp?). It will open here
on the 14th, the same as in Seattle. Another thing, Don't bother
waiting, It will be great. I must have listened to the sound track
15 times and will enjoy it again before I see the movie. Don't let
the fact that Toto did the soundtrack fool you, this is not
something you would compare to a rock album. Have a nice drive and
enjoy...
                           The Begining is a very special time...
                           Miguel Colon (cologne)
                           Reed College Box 1177
                           !reed!ronin

------------------------------

From: wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Interview with Herbert in Seattle
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 00:50:49 MST

One of the local TV stations had an interview with Frank Herbert at
a benefit showing of Dune.  Here are some quotes which might be of
interest:

"It's as close to the book as a movie can get."

"Several of my books are under consideration, and I may direct one
of them."

------------------------------

Date: Sat 15 Dec 84 10:08:42-PST
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #221

I joined a group of friends yesterday and went to the opening of
Dune at a local theatre. We all have read the books, and,
unanimously felt that Dune as a movie was *great*. The film is
intense, and, the few slowly moving FXs were appreciated breaks in
the action.

I personally prefer this film to its Star Wars counterparts.

                        Bill

------------------------------

From: JANSSEN.RX@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 17 Dec 84 5:08:14 EST
Subject: DUNE FILM REVIEW GERMAN TV

Preview of DUNE on German Tv.

Last sunday evening (16 dec) a review was shown on Dune with an
interview with Herbert.  The focus in the interview lay on two
items.

1.  Earth is a limited planet with limited resources.  Herbert wants
to warn us with his writing what can happen if we use these
resources to rapidly.

2.  Herbert warns us for following a godlike leader like Paul
Muad'dib.  He quotes Franklin D.  Roosevelt that dragged you lot
into WW-II.  John F. Kennedy who left you with the Vietnam-syndrome
and off-course Adolf Hitler who's 'leadership' destroyed Germany.

I was surprised that Frank Herbert was so involved.  From the other
side it disappointed me that he used such a commonplace to explain
why he writes.  Here in Holland we call that to "break through an
open door"

Anyway the scenes they showed from the film looked indeed very
promising. I am looking forward to it.

                                        Paul Janssen
                                        JANSSEN.RX@XEROX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 17 Dec 1984 05:20:51-PST
From: soule%rainbw.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Marc Soule)
Subject: STARMAN and DUNE

>  SF-Lovers  Volume 9 : Issue 220
>  Subject: Starman ===> In a word, *TRASH*

I caught Siskel & Ebert's AT THE MOVIES last Friday (CBS in Boston,
11:30pm).  They loved this film.  DUNE on the other hand, came
within a whisker of becoming the "skunk of the week."  After
watching DUNE pumped up here for the past year, and then reading the
reviews later in this digest, I'm afraid that I am going to be
disappointed.  I guess I will have to go to both films just to see
for myself.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 17 Dec 1984 10:11:04-PST
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: DUNE

DUNE

Well, like most everyone else, I went to see it. If you don't like
spoilers, and are one of the odd people in this forum who haven't
seen it yet, and plan to, don't read this!

It's not bad.

It's not too good, either.

On a scale of accuracy to a book of colossal popularity and eternal
fan-following, I'd say it's quite a bit better than what Greystroke
did to Tarzan; but it could have been improved substantially without
too much work.

Necessarily, and excusably, most of the subplots were left out. This
is the straight main-line action. There simply isn't time in a
movie. Much of the main line was compressed. Very little was
rearranged or severely modified (until the end, anyway).

The effects are good.  Except they were a bit too much into blood
for my tastes.  The acting was reasonably good, except for Paul and
Feyd, who were excellent, and the Baron, who reminded me most of
Hackman's Lex Luthor in the first Superman movie: he did all the
requisite evil things, but never really convinced me that his heart
was in it.

There were minor (not excusable, but overlook-able) changes. The
Atreides troops (and the Fedaykin) fought with Atreides-patented
"wierding units" which convert the fighter's voice into a sort of
sonic beam, which can stun, cut, cause-to-flame, break rock, etc. I
watched in hopeless terror that they would use these at the end when
Paul confronted the Rev. Mother and learned to "use his Voice as a
weapon" -- luckily, they did not, and so I recommend simply ignoring
these minor perversions.

The Baron wasn't fat enough, cultivated ugly facial infections, flew
around on his suspensors, wallowed in muck, and liked to pull a
person's "heart plug" and cuddle as the person died. I didn't find
him very impressive. I wish his personality had been done better --
whether the fault is in acting, writing, or directing, I couldn't
say. He held up his end of the plot in a satisfactory manner,
however, so he can be overlooked as well. In fact, for those purists
who have complained that the Baron flies, I should point out that he
does in the book as well, if only momentarily as he dies (re-read
that section, if you doubt).

The major failing of the movie; the one totally inexcusable,
unforgivable, and fatally damning failing, takes place at the very
end. For after felling Feyd and cowing the Rev. Mother with his
Voice, Paul decides that it's time for some rain.  The movie ends
with the Freman troops yelling and dashing about while getting
drenched from above with some good heavy Ark weather.

        /dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 20:53 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: DUNE!  See it!

DUNE!

Micro-Review: If you're into action, spectaculars, or weird
characters, see Dune.  If you like sensitivity or characterizations,
you will be disappointed.

I have read Dune more times than I can count and this proved a
detriment.  Every time I saw a 30 second scene, I could see the 40
pages in the book that were behind that scene.  The movie seemed
quite shallow to me.  On the other hand they did a remarkable job of
conveying the entire content of the book in 2.4 hrs.  They hit every
major point, and made the audience understand what was going on
(with the exception of some professional movie critics).

The thing which was lost in the movie was the characters.  Most of
them seemed to have little motivation.  Paul met Chani, she
threatened him with a knife and they were lovers, as quick as that.
Jessica, Paul's mother, did almost nothing in the whole movie.  Only
in one scene did Jessica show any presence, when they were captured
by the Fremen she took the leader captive barehanded.  There was
little or no explanation for how she had this power and it was not
used later.

Despite this loss, the movie was still good.  I was with a friend
who had never read the book and afterward he complained about all
the people who said the book was so good.  "I would have enjoyed it
more if all those people hadn't told me the movie could never match
the book."  So the movie obviously does reach some who haven't read
the book, especially if they want an impressive, action picture.

The stupid rain at the end was far to Biblical, but other than that
this was worth seeing.

Following is the review sent locally by a friend whose name is
excluded to same him possible embarrassment.  Excuse the language,
but this is verbatim.

From:   LVVAX1::PANZER         17-DEC-1984 19:25
To:     @HH.DIS
Subj:   MORE DUNE

I've about had it with all the movie vs book dialog on the subject
of DUNE. I saw the movie but did NOT read the book. I feel slighted.
I felt like I was not supposed to like the movie because it wasn't
going to live up to the blasted book!

   Screw the damn book. I was not lost in the characters or places.
The movie had an excellent main plot with a number of interesting
sub-plots. The acting was comparable to most of the other fantasy
movies. The scenes stirred my imagination on wondering what it would
be like to be in that world. The ending did not wrap up all the ends
as well as the book supposedly does, but I can live with that.

   If you want to see a pretty good fantasy movie, GO SEE DUNE, and
tell all the book people to take a flying leap a rolling doughnut.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #223
Date: 18 Dec 84 1156-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #223
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Dec 84 1156-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #223
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 223

Today's Topics:

       Books - Ellison & Smith & Wolfe & Gernsback (2 msgs) &
               Collector's Editions (2 msgs),
       Miscellaneous - Organ Banks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Ellison & Smith
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 84 12:10:56 MST

I was never in the closet about liking Harlan Ellison.  I went to
Westercon this year only because he was the guest of honor, and it
was well worth it.

On the same subject, a new edition/version of "From the Land of
Fear" is supposed to appear soon, if it hasn't already.  There is
also a new book running around, "Sleepless Nights In the Procrustean
Bed," a collection of his essays.  Some of them I have seen before
in other books, many are new.  I often enjoy his essays even more
than I do his stories, and I think the book is well worth reading.

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Ellison & Smith
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 84 12:10:56 MST

I was wondering if anyone around here had read anything by L. Neil
Smith (no, *besides* the "Lando Calrissian" books).  I have read all
five of his books (I don't count the ones mentioned above).  One
that I would recommend is "Their Majesties' Bucketeers," which is
basically a detective novel, even a Sherlock Holmes-type, except for
a couple of things:

1)  The detective doesn't know how to detect, but he's learning.

2) The detective, his sidekick, the murderer, the murdered, and, in
    fact, all of the people in the book are aliens.  They are built
    on the base of three.  Brain divided into thirds, three eyes,
    three limbs, each divided into three more, three sexes, etc.
    There is a nice picture of what they look like on the cover of
    the book.

------------------------------

From: robertsl@stolaf.UUCP (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Gene Wolfe - some spoilers
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 22:09:29 MST

     I've enjoyed the recent discussions of Gene Wolfe's
_Book_of_the_New_Sun_.  I've read ( and re-read) this and a fair
ammount of Wolfe's other work.  Has anyone out there read
_The_Fifth_Head_of_Cerberus_?  Has anyone read both that book and
Silverberg's _Lord_Valentine's_Castle_?  Did it seem to you as if
LVC lifted certain concepts from Fifth Head - note the similarity of
the Annese to Silverberg's Metamorphs, and the underlying theme in
both books of metamorphasis - in Fifth Head from generation to
generation of clones (#5) and from VRT to Marsch , and in LVC from
the old Valentine to the new.  And, although I'm no Heinlein fan,
what about Michael Valentine Smith's Castle?  Well, perhaps I'm
paranoid.

     Is it possible that there never was a Marsch in the first
place, that VRT made him up?  I haven't re-read the book since I
heard this hypothesis, but even if there aren't any contradictions
to it, it sounds kind of shaky.  Of course, you've probably noticed
the marsch-men pun in "A Story" .  Then again, how about March's
green eyes?  Was there a handwriting change in the journals in part
3?

     One analysis I read mentions that scenery in "A Story" also
appears in "VRT" (part 3).  I never noticed this before - I'll have
to watch next time.

     Now a few New Sun things... What about the second time the
Green Man was supposed to save Severian's life?  Has anyone heard
when _The_Urth_of_the_New_ _Sun_ is coming out?  What is
_The_Wolfe_Archipeligo_?

      Does anyone out there read Thomas Disch or Somtow Sucharitkul?
They are both marvelously literate authors.  What's your opinion of
Wolfe and Disch (among others) publishing unaffordable collectors
editions that you'd be afraid to read for fear of damaging them,
even if you could afford them... I'm not even talking about $18
hardbacks ( although those are bad enough ) .  I'm complaining about
$100 books, and somewhat about Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for
Toothpaste Press...  Opinions?

       Laurence Roberts
       ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

"Ifrit first you don't succeed, fly, fly a djinn!"

------------------------------

From: srk@ihuxl.UUCP (S R Krause)
Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 17:16:41 MST

One possible reason that the HUGO awards honor Hugo Gernsback is
related to the World Science Fiction Society.  The same authors that
were published in Amazing Stories, and the readers of such
publications are typically the people that went to the WorldCons.
The fact that people liked the idea of special recognition for their
favorite stories is not surprising.

It is debatable that the pulp magazines were detrimental to the
field.  I started reading science fiction very early; much earlier
than I would have read anything more demanding.  I read the Tom
Swift Jr series rather than the Hardy Boys.  Although these books
may not be great literature I enjoyed them at the time.  The same
goes for the Science fiction magazines.  They offered an avenue for
both the reader and the writer to explore many different realities.
I would feel deprived if I had to wait for a similar story in the
"high class" magazines.

This is not to say that all the stories are worth reading but my
inclination is choose from many rather than wait for a few good
ones.  Who would decide if they are good anyway?  My values are
definitely not the same as the New York critics.

I for one am glad to have the Hugo awards.  Beside the obvious
incentive for authors, the list of Hugo nominations is usually an
excellent reading list.

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (e.leeper)
Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 84 20:11:07 MST

                               Hugo Gernsback
                   A counter-editorial by Mark R. Leeper

     Last week Evelyn published an editorial suggesting that Hugo
Gernsback has had a negative effect on the field of science fiction.
In the guise of the "loyal opposition" I would like to disagree.
Her argument is two-fold.  First, it is that he was an incompetent
writer and second, that by creating separate science fiction
magazines, he pulled science fiction out of the mainstream and made
it a separate genre that the critics could ignore.

     On the first charge I have to admit that Evelyn is right, but
Gernsback is guilty with mitigating circumstances.  People like
Wells and Verne were writing for a fiction-reading audience and were
putting new twists on fiction writing when they wrote what we call
science fiction.  Gernsback was a science writer.  He started with
science articles about the present, went on to scientific
speculation about the future, and then as twists on that he started
putting characters in, and writing his articles as stories.  He was
writing the literary equivalent of a World's Fair exhibit showing
the world of the future.  These exhibits, incidentally, often create
a fictional character, usually called Jimmy, and take Jimmy through
a typical day.  One gets to the end of such an exhibit with some
dubious idea of what the future may be like, but rarely does he or
she get any earth-shaking insights into Jimmy's psyche.

     What Gernsback discovered was that just like there are long
lines outside World's Fair future exhibits, there was a demand for
his future fiction.  Now at this time, there were maybe two or three
novels written in a year about the future.  Maybe one in six was any
good, so every couple of years there would be a competently written
book that we would consider a science fiction novel.  Critics
noticed this one book every couple of years and called it to the
attention of their readers, many of whom had some interest in the
fantastic.

     Gernsback recognized this interest and started devoting
separate magazines to it.  Readers brought writers; writers brought
more readers.  Suddenly readers no longer needed the critics to
point out where fantastic literature was--it was right there on the
magazine shelf.  Critics continued to point out literature their
readers might miss, but it was not science fiction because that was
not hard to find.  Also, the percentage of hack writers had
increased with a proven demand for science fiction.  They tended to
give the field a bad name.  Soon every science fiction magazine had
its own critics reviewing science fiction books and telling which
were the good.  There was no need for mainstream critics to discuss
science fiction at all.

     Now what gave science fiction a bad name were the hack writers
and the demand for even hack science fiction.  There was a real
market for bug-eyed monster stories in magazines with bug-eyed
monsters on the cover.  Through all this the critics disdained the
bad stuff and enjoyed the good, but there was little need to review
the good because people who liked the fantastic had very apparent
ways of finding the better writing.  In the Fifties, celebrities,
including prominent critics, would show up on the back cover of F&SF
extolling the virtues of science fiction.

     Most high school English teachers were not well-read in science
fiction and, having seen newsstands, were painfully aware that much
of science fiction was bad, backed away from letting students read
it for school.  Now the readership of science fiction is expanding
as never before.  Baby-boom children who grew up on Captain Video or
Captain Kirk make up a large proportion of the reading public.  That
means that science fiction is now creeping onto the bestseller
lists.  Further, there are people who do not read the science-
fiction-only critics who are getting interested in the field, so
mainstream critics are reviewing science fiction for them.

     All this might or might not have happened without Gernsback's
help.  He was just someone who saw a demand and made some money
filling it.  But by creating a dependable source of his "scientific
fiction"--a magazine that showed up down at the corner drugstore
once a month--he brought together the people who wanted to read
science fiction and the people who wanted to write it.  Once that
happened, both the success of the genre and the ghetto were
inevitable.  The former is what Gernsback is gratefully remembered
for.  The latter was a temporary minor inconvenience resulting from
the formation of the genre.  The formation of the ghetto could have
been avoided only if the supply of science fiction had remained very
small.  And that is too high a price to pay for a few pats on the
back from mainstream critics.

     To blame Gernsback for the formation of the science fiction
ghetto is like blaming Henry Ford for our country's dependence on
petroleum.  All this convinces the writing critics that there is
enough interest in science fiction that their readers will want to
read about the field.
                                   (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                   Mark R. Leeper
                                   ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: Collector's editions
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 08:05:43 MST

Having a housemate who collects seriously, and knowing the
perpetrators of two different small presses, I have some opinions
about collectors editions to contribute in response to Laurence
Roberts' query.

First, they aren't generally published "by" the author, as your
message seems to imply.  Generally, the small press approaches the
author; the author simply accepts the offer (perhaps after
negotiation).

More important, I think, is that a collector's edition rarely delays
the appearance of a mass-market edition.  Often they appear after a
regular hardback is out.  I do know of one case where a collectors'
edition delayed publication of the paperback by (I think it's) 9
months; but that edition cost only $17, not out of range for a
normal hardcover.  Some of the things appearing in special editions
probably won't ever appear in mass-market paper; no demand.  Few
authors (and I note that Gene Wolfe, in particular, went to
supporting himself entirely from his writing relatively recently)
will agree to a limited-profit edition if it interferes with a mass
edition.

On other points in that message, my memory of Fifth Head is a bit
old; but I think that drawing the parallel of "transformation"
between that and Lord Valentine is a bit thin.  Transformation could
be argued to be the theme of essentially any "literary" work (any
work which features character development prominently), with about
as good a case.  You could make the case even more strongly,
perhaps, for most of Jack Chalker's books.  As someone pointed out
here long ago, he puts his characters through far more than most
authors.

(Fire preventative: I am not commenting on character development in
Chalker's works!!  I am not pushing his books into the "literary"
genre; more the reverse, actually.)

        -- David Dyer-Bennet
        -- {ihnp4|purdue|decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe - some spoilers
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 14:43:18 MST

> ...  What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch (among others)
>publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid to
>read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford them...
>I'm not even talking about $18 hardbacks ( although those are bad
>enough ) .  I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat about
>Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press...  Opinions?

        Why would you want to complain? You're not required to buy
the expensive collector's editions. These books almost invariably
come out in large trade editions, as well, or in paperback. The only
ones that don't are those which wouldn't have a mass audience. In
such cases high prices are inevitable, since you're unable to
prorate the costs of publishing over a large print run.
        The main reasons these editions are expensive is that they
are limited editions, and they (usually) are better made than trade
editions.  The reason they're published at all is that there are
collectors who are willing to pay the high prices for them. I've
paid more than $100.00 for some books, and I have no complaints.
        Having roasted you adequately, let me back down a bit. I
*have* seen cases where there has been an unconscionably long delay
between the publishing of the collector's edition, and later
publishing of the trade edition. This seems to be an effort to boost
sales of the expensive version by withholding the affordable copies,
and I consider it a low practice.  Lest the libertarians flame me, I
should add that publishers have a right to do it; but I don't have
to like it.

-  From the Crow's Nest  -            Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry
SOURCE: ST7891

------------------------------

From: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner)
Subject: Organ Banks for real ?
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 05:41:42 MST

Hey , look whats going on in net.politics :-

mike <mwm@ea.UUCP> writes :-

!  Using unwanted adults as an organ supply has already been
!  suggested.  The basis is that condemned criminals would lose the
!  "right" to control what happens to their body after their death,
!  and all their organs would be available for transplants. The idea
!  is that they just may save more lives than they destroyed.
!
!    When the politicians get hold of this, it will undoubtedly
!  become law.  After all, the "people" can extend their lifes with
!  it. It will also doom the movement to do away with the death
!  penalty. Finally, you can expect the death penalty to be applied
!  to steadily less severe crimes, until to many moving violations
!  gets you sent to the organ banks.
!
!  Isn't the will of the majority fun?
!
!       <mike

... sounds familiar , doesnt it ?

UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt  ( L.K.Turner)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #224
Date: 18 Dec 84 1222-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #224
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Dec 84 1222-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #224
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 224

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART 1 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: stoner@qumix.UUCP (David Stone)
Subject: RE: 2010 Movie
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 13:57:10 MST

If anyone is interested the is a picture layout and a couple of good
articles on '2010' in the most recent issue of OMNI magazine
(November I think).

stoner@qumix
David A. Stone
Qume Corp.
San Jose,Calif.

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: Newsweek (p)review of 2010
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 16:56:35 MST

Following its Dune review, Newsweek (the regular edition) has a
short job on 2010.  Their synopsis: it starts fine, goes great, good
acting, great SFX, but the conclusion fizzles.  Apparently the
director hosed up the Clarke story a bit, by injecting fears of Nuke
War on Earth any day now thanks to a reactionary US President
invading Central America.  (Okay, we all read the papers and some
may agree with the director's point of view.  But what about AC
Clarke's viewpoint, such as expressed in his book?  No great
US-Soviet tensions in there.)  I plan to see it at least twice
anyway, but will be quite pissed if they muff the book's ending,
which subsumes anti-war sentiments by the way.
        The review showed a still of an astronaut working outside
with IO or Jupiter in the background -- it looked excellent.

mike k
PS: Want to know a movie where the concluding scenes were neither as
meaningful nor as thrilling as the book?  Crichton's "Terminal Man."

------------------------------

From: stonehen@ncoast.UUCP (Sammie Chan)
Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two <First part not spoiler, second spoiler>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 01:43:30 MST

The first few paragraphs are not really that much of a spoiler but
be forewarned!  This review will be a big big spoiler!!!

   The movie 2010: Odyssey Two is only worth seeing if you have
never read the book!  The movie attempts to follow the book but a
few "SMALL THINGS" got in the way.  One of the "SMALL THINGS" is the
world politics of today.  The writers made the tension between US
and USSR explode due to a blockade of Honduras by the US; no reason
was clearly given why it happened.  The movie revolve entirely
around this explosion of tension, bringing around a complete break
in relation between US and USSR.  Due to this differences, the movie
contradicts quite a bit of the book and also 2001.
   This movie also left out / re-written some of the book.  To name
the biggest omission, it is section II TSIEN.  The writers had to
disturb the order of the book because of this.  Two of the
charactors were rewritten, Dr. Heywood Floyd and Dr.
Chandrasegrampillai.  Heywood in the book was more of a gentlemen
and fitted the image from 2001, but the movie version, he was a
hardnose politican.  Dr. Chandra. in the book is an Indian and
introverted, but the movie showed him as a short white professor,
and almost out spoken much of the time.  All of the Russians' roles
were off because of the world views.  And there was one less
Russian: Katerina Rudenko, they put either Alexander Kovalev or
Nikolai Ternovsky in that role.
   The special effect in this movie is good but does not compare
with 2001's effects.  2010's effects were short and showed things
happening too fast.  The ships' thrust were only to be about a tenth
of a gee at maximum but the effects showed instant rocket power!
Plus all of the very good zero gravity effects in 2001 were not
followed up upon.  They had me confused as to where on both ships is
the area with gravity are located. Also of the excellent tricks with
change of inertia frames found in 2001, there are none in 2010.

   My last note on this before the real spoiler / comparison part is
that the movie is good if you don't compare with the book and is
worth seeing at least once.  But put everything out of you mind
before you walk into the theater.

The following is a detailed comparsion of the movie and the book!!
Skip now or forever hold your peace!!!

   This movie started with a report (summary) of 2001 and then
switches to Heywood cleaning one of the dish of the Arizona radio
array.  Ok so it wasn't the Arecibo 1000 footer, but why cleaning
it??  The minute after that almost caused me to leave the theater.
Dr. Dimitri Moisevitch shows up and played a cat and mouse game with
Heywood in a hostile manner.  (But wasn't he a best friend? and the
Russian wanted to cooperate with the Americans?)  The movie then
followed up on the BS that goes on in Washington as Heywood tries to
convince a big G official on the plans to go with Leonov.  From this
we learn of the increasing tension and of the new reactionary
President.  Ok, Ok, if that's how they want to screw it up, I can't
complain about the cost of the ticket; I won it from WMMS 100.7 in
Cleveland, and I am one of the first few to view it.
   A very touching 5 min. was of the chapter The House of the
Dolphins.  The movie showed what can be read and not read from this
chapter, and provided a much better view of the family man Heywood.
It was beter done than the phone call scene in 2001.
   As said before, section II TSIEN was omitted, they replaced it
with a short scene.  Leonov was 2 days from Jupiter and just passing
Europa.  A routine check indicated life is there, and a probe is
sent fore to investigate.  Needless to say, something repels the
probe just as they begin to see what the greenish creature was.  Ok
the last part of the book Epilog 20001 was partially put at the
start of the movie...HUH???  Were the writers afraid to hurt the new
relationship with China or something???  Again...HUH???
   The next section followed from the book nicely.  They played up
Chap. 14 Double Encounter very well.  Chap. 17 boarding party was
very very well done.  The addition of comedy was also welcome.  The
special effects in this part of the movie were good, the aerobrake
maneuver was nicely displayed.  And the view of Discovery flipping
end over end was fantasitic!
   Section IV Lagrange was too much over done.  By this time Max and
Curnow had gotten Discovery back up to working condition and Dr. C
has HAL up and cooperating.  It was time to meet Big Brother...
They really over played the Russian Captain Orlova as the female
fist of the crew.  She order Max to EVA to Big Brother in (get this)
one of Leonov's pods.  In the book, Max was the one to see Bowman
emerge from the monolith, but in the movie he gets kill as Bowman
opens up space.  The pod was exactly over the area of the warp.<<--
hmmmmm?!
   Section V A Child of the Stars was chopped up in the movie, I
don't know why they omitted chap. 36, and 38.  If they would have
made the effects, it would have made 2010 one of the best special
effect movie of '84.  A few chapters like 34, 35, & 37 could not be
done on screen but they don't really matter much in a movie.  The
other chapters of Bowman visiting his mother and Betty was done with
good emotion.  Even though the part with his mother on the death bed
is a bit corny, it followed the book well.  The meeting of Bowman
and Heywood was played out for almost 10 min.  A great deal of
dialog was written for the movie, but it did have a favor for the
book.
   During this time, the US and USSR had broken all relations.  The
American part of the crew was ordered to go to Discovery and fly her
back. (??? cute) And the Russian was given the same orders.  If the
Americans or Russian was found on the opposite side he/she is to be
arrested (??? cuter).  This total deviation from the book is not in
my taste at all.  After Heywood got the message from Bowman, he
decided to hell with the break in relations.  He EVA over to Leonov
and had a talk with the Captain; and the monolith disappears.  This
is now getting into section VI Devourer of Worlds.  Needless to say
the disapperance of the monolith convinced the Captain and plans
were made to use Discovery as a booster.
   The movie then follows this section well, plus it gave some great
special effects on the conversion of Jupiter by the monoliths into a
sun.  Most of the action here was special effects; again not too
bad.  The only gripe is that Leonov was not tied to Discovery, it
had a docking arm which fitted the slender body of Discovery very
very well.  <<---again hmmm!?
   The final section Lucifer Rising was done with style and followed
the book.  The time scale between events was distorted, they
shortening it.  Just after Leonov was separated from Discovery,
Jupiter imploded into a star, blowing Discovery away but not Leonov.
I am sure that Leonov can't be going that fast to escape destruction
if Discovery was destoryed.  The interaction of Bowman and HAL was
done as best as possible; how can one show an energy being
interfacing with a computer???  One final thing that the writers did
to the book was to add two lines to the last message...
    All of these worlds are yours - except Europa.
    Attempt no landings there.
    Use them together.
    Use them for peace.
With this the writers hoped to tell the morale of this story, and to
save all of the omissions and changes from the book.  I don't agree!
   The ending of this movie was good.  It used the end of the
Epilog's favor to show that the monolith is now helping evolution on
Europa just as it did for man in 2001.  But I am very disappointed
that they did not attempt to show what the Europians looked liked,
only the green swamp land, a promise of life and maybe
intelligences.

Sammie Chung Yu Chan: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!stonehen:
R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET
1611 E. 32nd St., Cleveland, Ohio 44114  (216) 696-3549

------------------------------

From: jsgray@watmath.UUCP (Jan Gray)
Subject: 2010 mini-review and mistake (spoiler)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 19:56:46 MST

2010 was just okay.  It was faithful to the book, except that they
added a silly nuclear war tension, and narration which hurt 2010 as
much as it hurt Blade Runner.

SPOILER WARNING!

The mistake occurs when the expedition discovers why HAL killed the
rest of the Discovery crew.  It is revealed that the National
Security Comission (a future NSA?) implanted the knowledge of the
monolith into HAL (causing inner conflict and therefore malfunction
in HAL) without telling Heywood Floyd.  In fact he repeats "they
didn't tell me" over and over again.  BUT in 2001 he *did* know.
Proof?  After HAL was disconnected a prerecorded briefing message
was displayed on a monitor, and in that briefing Heywood Floyd said:
(I have this scene memorized...)

        "Good afternoon gentlemen.  This is a prerecorded briefing
made prior to your departure, which, for security reasons of the
highest importance, has been known on board, during the mission,
only by your H-A-L 9000 computer.  Eighteen months ago the first
evidence of intelligent life off the earth was discovered on the
moon near the crater Tycho.  Except for a single, very powerful
radio emission aimed at Jupiter, the four million year old black
monolith has remained completely inert.  Its origin and purpose
still a total mystery."

So...In "2001" Floyd says that he told HAL about the monolith, and
in 2010 he violently denies that he did...

Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP)
University of Waterloo
(519) 885-1211 x3870

------------------------------

From: louie@umd5.UUCP
Subject: 2010 review review
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 20:21:51 MST

What follows is a review of the movie "2010" reproduced here without
prior permission from the Washington Post "Weekend" section.

                         2010: Odyssey Two
               Mankind's Spaced Out Again, by Jupiter
                           By Rita Kemply

  In the beginning, Arthur C. Clarke created "2001: A Space
Odyssey."  The next 15 years, he rested.  Now Peter Hyams presents
the sequel to the metaphysial cliffhanger, a larger-than-life work
based on Clarke's "2010: Odyssey Two," a cerebral story of second
genesis.

  Keir Dullea returns as [sic] John Bowman, the astronaut who made
contact with the Eerie Beings in the classic directed by Stanley
Kubrick.  And Canadian Douglas Rain reprises his role as the voice
of H.A.L 9000, the computer who went mad on the original odyssey.
Bowman's last transmission from the now-silent Discovery, "My God,
it's full of stars," gives us the starting point in "2010."

  A team of Russian and American scientists takes the Soviet
spacecraft Leonov to investigate the [sic] Jupiterian monoliths that
turned Bowman into the big Star Baby.  Is Bowman a god, the Messiah,
a close relative of the Kwisatz Haderach?  And what about H.A.L.?
Who was behind the secret message in his circuits? Was it the CIA or
IBM?  And what is a higher life form anyway?

  They'll learn the Big Answers to the Big Questions in this chapter
of the cosmic soap opera.  But the revelations are equivocal,
faithful to the ambiguity of the original.  The major difference
between films is "2010's" greater emphasis on people.  The
performances are all excellent, but Helen Mirren is utterly
convincing as the formidable commander of the Leonov.  Roy Scheider
costars as the former head of the Space Agency, with John Lithgow as
the [sic] engineer of Discovery and Bob Balaban as the father of
H.A.L.

  The great Lithgow's bout with acrophobia as he crosses the void
from Leonov to Discovery is one of the film's best, most human
moments.  Balaban's relationship with H.A.L. is also tender. (He
cries.)  But an attempt to warm things up by including Scheider's
family and pet dolphins just slows things down.

  Space is slowww.  And it is vast.  Like the original, "2010" is a
celebration of spaciousness and tomorrow's technology.  But current
technology has surpassed the author's imagination for now.
Sometimes the crew looks out on Io or Europa and gasps as the wonder
of it.  But it really isn't as interesting as a live Voyager
transmission.

  Much of the science of "2010" is questionable in the face of what
we knew, know and are learning.  A new star appears in the solar
system and the earth escapes without a tremor.  The Leonov embarks
without enough fuel to either return or slow down.  They do "air
braking" (without air) to slow Leonov as she whips around the planet
and into a new orbit.  How's that for science friction.

  Still "2010" is a repectable production despite the
disappointments.  But sometimes a movie just cries out for a wise
old rubber Muppet.  But now, not so much as a hairy paw.

[Flame on, NOVA intensity]

I'm not sure what to think about a movie after a review like this.
I really wonder if Rita Kempley actually saw this movie.  How could
someone screw up Dave Bowman's name??  John??  And Jupiterian, I
would think that the simple adjective "Jovian" would do just fine.
Some of the not-so-fine plot details which the movie seems to go out
of its way to point out are completely missed.  The Leonov doesn't
depart without enough fuel.  The early departure from Jupiter is
makes the kludge with Discovery necessary.  And "air braking" is not
science fiction made up for the movie, it was even featured on the
cover of Popular Science a year or so ago.

I'm sure glad I was saw 2010 (on opening day, first show) before I
read this review.

Louis A. Mamakos
Computer Science Center - Systems Programming
University of Maryland, College Park

Internet: louie@umd5.arpa
UUCP: ..!seismo!cvl!umd5!louie

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #225
Date: 18 Dec 84 1239-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #225
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Dec 84 1239-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #225
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984     Volume 9 : Issue 225

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART II ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Subject: 2010 review
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 84 22:00:00 MST

I came into 2010 not expecting a lot.  After all, 2001 had been
directed by God in His Incarnation As Stanley Kubrick, but still it
is a major SF movie based on a book by one of the biggest authors in
the field.

Anyway, it turns out that I was very pleasantly surprised.  This
film sticks well to the novel and captures much of its flavour.

Clarke must have approved.  Watch him feeding the birds in front of
the White House in an early scene in the movie.

There is an extra "world tension" subplot which isn't all that
necessary, I guess it's to make the film more topical, but it
doesn't detract a lot.

All in all one of the better SF movies in a while.  (Of course the
last film I saw before this was Android.  If Mary Schelly got a
royalty for each time her story was retold, she'd make a fortune!
Couldn't do a lot with it now, mind you, being dead and all, but it
would be a fortune.)

Anyway, the tradition of 2001 must have rubbed off on Hyams.  A good
(although not perfect like S. K.) attempt at depiction of realistic
spaceflight.  Reasonable use of music (not as good as 2001) and sfx.
Balaban as HAL's creator was kinda week in my opinion.

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer)
Subject: 2010 review--non spoiler
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 23:30:39 MST

2001 was one of the few movies which was richer in allusion and
subtlety than the book.  Unfortunately, 2010, the movie, continues
this seemingly inexorable progress towards literal-mindedness.  It
begins with a "computer printout" summary of what "happened" in 2001
(just the facts, ma'am) worthy of the 3 minute synopses which begin
the episodes of made-for-TV mini-series extravaganzas, and proceeds
with some horrendous expository dialogue for the next 40 minutes or
so.  The characters here don't talk to each other, they explain the
background of the plot to the audience.  This is static stuff,
anti-cinematic really, and the director (what's his name, who
cares?) does nothing to help.

In fact, this movie really is TV quality: the characters are thinly
drawn--non-dimensional, perhaps.  The Soviets (you've all seen the
plot summaries, right?) are cold war zombies, and our hero Roy
Scheider knows it all, in the best US tradition.  As tensions
increase on earth, with a war brewing between the superpowers,
things begin to "heat up" on Jupiter.  "Something wonderful is about
to happen!" claims a resurrected Dave Bowman, late of 2001, to
Scheider.  Indeed!  If you gagged on "Close Encounters", you'll
choke on 2010.

There are a very few good scenes, especially those involving the HAL
9000 computer and Chandra, HAL's programmer, but they do not a movie
make.

Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against 2001,
one of the most influential movies of all time.  Perhaps it IS an
unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every respect.

/Steve Dyer
{decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer
sdyer@bbncca.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl)
Subject: 2010: THE YEAR WE MAKE CONTACT
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 08:20:59 MST

                   2010: THE YEAR WE MAKE CONTACT
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Peter Hyams is one of the last people whom I would have
expected would make a sequel to 2001.  It was the a point of pride
with Clarke and Kubrick that their 1968 film be as faithful to
scientific fact as was possible.  Hyams has played fast and loose
with scientific accuracy in his two previous science fiction films,
CAPRICORN ONE and OUTLAND.  Hyams was to write, produce, and direct
2010 by himself.  Clarke had retired to Sri Lanka and apparently
could not oversee the scientific accuracy of the production.

     So how do the two films compare?  Hyams's film by itself is a
remarkable film.  As an adaptation of the book, it is a real rarity.
It is a pure science fiction film.  That does not mean science
fantasy, it does not mean science horror.  It means that this is a
film that takes scientific ideas and plays with them.  It does so
not to scare us with monsters, not to give us a western set in
space, not to show us a love story that happens to take place in
space.  It is an extrapolation of theory and idea.  The story
concerns men and women making scientific discoveries, but it is
primarily about the discoveries, not the people making them.  By
following a team of scientists as they attack scientific problems it
is closer in spirit to Clarke's RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA than it is to
2001.

     2010 stands head and shoulders above anything that we could
have expected from Hyams based on his previous work.  But that is no
surprise since Hyams merely had to be accurate to a pure science
fiction book.  Word has it that it is a fairly accurate
representation, with a few minor liberties.  As far as pacing, the
second film is a considerable improvement.  Hyams has made a
slightly less visual film, still very visual, and picked up the pace
considerably.  2001 was intended to be a showcase of the future and
that means in may places the plot stops dead to show a visual
effect.  The new film's science is a little less accurate.  As in
OUTLAND, Hyams does not understand gravity, artificial and natural.

     With the exception of scientific errors, the worst faults of
2010 probably lie with Clarke and the novel.  The film teasingly
promises to give new insights into the questions raised in the first
film.  It then reneges on that promise.  When it is over, the alien
race is as much a mystery as it was in 1968.  There are more
theories as to what the monolith actually is, but they remain
theories.  Clarke's "see the movie, read the book, see the movie,
read the book..." does not seem to be a sufficient answer to the
questions.  Now it probably is true that that is a realistic touch.
The aliens probably would be unfathomable to the human mind.  But to
fall back on that does not make for good cinema and even makes
unsatisfying science fiction.  The trailers and script promise that
at the end of the film "something wonderful" will happen.  In fact,
what happens is wondrous, but the film is very unsuccessful in
conveying why it is wonderful.  Most of the effect of the something
wonderful appears to be that it temporarily averts a war on Earth
and that there are somewhat superficial celestial events that can be
seen from Earth.  The full implications of the something wonderful
are never explained.  The impact of the something wonderful on the
audience is considerably undercut by an almost identical something
wonderful that happened in another popular science fiction film of
the past few years.  That makes the big surprise at the end
something of a letdown.

     Production credits are all very good.  Visually the film shows
a number of remarkable sights without making them the static set
pieces that the first film made of them.  There are still a fair
number of scenes of stark beauty, such as the view of the churning
surface of Jupiter.  I was a little sorry to see the part of Heywood
Floyd went to Roy Scheider instead of the underrated William
Sylvester, who played the part in the original and is a familiar
face from a number of good British genre films.  John Lithgow is
along in large part for comic relief.  Helen Mirren, familiar from
THE LONG GOOD FRIDAY and EXCALIBUR, plays one of the few Russian
characters not played by a member of the cast of MOSCOW ON THE
HUDSON.  Bob Balaban at first seems miscast as Dr. Chandra, since he
has no Indian accent, but by 2010 he could be a second or third
generation American.  In a less than stellar year for science
fiction films this is the best so far.  Give it a 2 on the -4 to +4
scale.
                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                         Mark R. Leeper
                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: 2010 review--non spoiler
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 00:01:11 MST

My editor hiccupped, and the 2010 review was ejected from its pod
prematurely.  Let me continue...

Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against 2001,
one of the most influential movies of all time.  Perhaps it IS an
unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every respect.
But, let's face the nature of sequels: their lot is to be compared
against the original.  Simply because so few sequels are equal or
better is no reason to accept mediocrity.  And, what's more, a
sequel, by trading on the success of the original, bears a heavy
responsibility to its audience.

2010's special effects are nothing special, mostly being of the Star
Trek throw-yourself-across-the-room variety.  Compare this with
2001, whose effects set a new standard (and raised one's own
standards.)

2010's use of music is minimal, and certainly suffers compared with
Kubrick's.  It dusts off the Ligeti "Kyrie" from 2001 occasionaly
when the monolith appears, but more often contents itself with
pedestrian workaday movie music.

But most earthbound is the vision of 2010.  Compared with Kubrick's
sardonic view of a soulless consumer culture of the 1960s projected
into the 21st century and its salvation despite itself, and filled
with inchoate, resonant symbols, 2010 contents itself with a
connect-the-dots sledge-hammer message of peace and brotherhood,
completely lacking in subtlety, guaranteed to incense anyone who
thought highly of the first movie.

/Steve Dyer
{decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA

------------------------------

From: louie@umd5.UUCP
Subject: Re: 2010 review--non spoiler
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 09:12:58 MST
Reply-to: louie@umd5.UUCP (Louis Mamakos)

sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) writes:
>Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against
>2001, one of the most influential movies of all time.  Perhaps it
>IS an unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every
>respect.

Perhaps it IS unfair, but when a film is obviously a sequel to a
classic, people will expect more (a lot more!) than they would out
of the run of the mill film.  Peter Hyams should have been aware of
this.  It was a little too 'blinky-light' for my taste.  Just
contrast the instrumentation of the Leonov with the Discovery.  I
agree with Steve, the opening sequence was just a too easy of a way
out of explaining what happened.

Despite these criticisms, I'll see 2010 one or two more times.  It's
not a bad movie; it just doesn't stack up to what I expected from
2001.

Louis A. Mamakos
Computer Science Center - Systems Programming
University of Maryland, College Park

Internet: louie@umd5.arpa
UUCP: ..!seismo!cvl!umd5!louie

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: 2010 review
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 03:58:17 MST

There're two ways of looking at 2010: as its own movie and as a
companion to 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY. The latter first.

They say comparisons are odious, but here it's inevitable. Quite
frankly, as a sequel to 2001, 2010 just doesn't cut the mustard.
First of all, as primitive as 2001's effects look these days, they
look much better than the ones in the sequel. Many of the models, as
well as the Jupiter/Io/Europa mattes, did not look very convincing.
The biggest consequence of this for me was that I didn't have the
feeling of really being in space that I got with the first film.
        Secondly, I found the direction too ordinary. Kubrick was
very much a stylist, and though 2001's characters (and through the
characters, the implied sociology of our future) seemed dull, that
dullness was for a stylistic reason, to indicate a dehumanization
process. Mankind reaching a plateau in evolution that the events in
the film would help to overcome. In contrast, 2010's characters (and
implied sociology) seemed too much like our present-day. Maybe it's
more reasonable to suggest that life in 2010 would be pretty much
just like it is now, but it still doesn't give the sense of alieness
that was a part of the heart of 2001.

However, as its own film, I found 2010 to be very enjoyable. Peter
Hyams, while not a *bad* writer/director, didn't inspire much
confidence for me. And I certainly found many scenes in 2010 to be
handled very awkwardly (much of this being Dr. Floyd's "diary"
voice-overs), just as I'd expected. Where Hyams really brought this
off, however, was in the characters. The characterization and
dialogue were, for the most part, delightful, aided immeasureably by
the talents of a top-notch cast. Roy Scheider is an actor I admire,
and he didn't let me down. And John Lithgow --- words fail me. He
isn't always superb, and to be honest, his work in 2010 isn't among
his best, but I'm impressed by the *range* of his talent. I have yet
to see him play the same character twice! Contrast this with someone
like Peter O'Toole, who always plays the same brash, self-indulgent
character. The real treat here, though, was Helen Mirren. I wasn't
all that taken with her performance as Morgana in EXCALIBUR, but
here she managed to convincingly pull off the role as the Soviet
mission commander.

2010 wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it was *far*
better than I had expected it to be, and I highly recommend it. On a
scale of 1-10, I would give this a 7.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: patcl@tekecs.UUCP (Pat Clancy)
Subject: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 23:22:02 MST

All true SF lovers and tech-nerds in general should be very
disappointed in 2010. Where 2001 was one of the first (or *the*
first?) truly intelligent attempts to convincingly depict a
not-to-distant future technology, and show a voyage through deep
space with stunning and painstaking realism, 2010 is just Battlestar
Galactica level cheap thrills for the kiddies.  It's OK for
spaceships in a vacuum to noisily roar by in Star Wars, because
that's "fantasy". Its not OK in 2010; in fact, it's practically
blasphemous. Perhaps the general "sci-fi" audience of the 1980's is
simply unaware of the difference between Hollywood-style
pseudo-science and physics.  Besides sound travelling through space,
other failings in the effects/realism department included:

(1) "Air-braking" (passing through Jupitor atmosphere) sequence that
resembled a burning marshmellow being held in front of a fan;
(2) entire circumnavigation of Jupitor appearing to take about 10
minutes, yielding effective velocity very close to c;
(3) people walking around normally in 0 g;
(4) sloppy paint job evident on close-ups of space pod and
instrument panels in Discovery;
(5) "blat-blat-blat" sound (radar?) coming from probe monitor on
board ship as probe nears moon, which purely for dramatic effect
increases in frequency and loudness as probe nears area where
chlorophyll is present, as if all their instruments were designed by
Mattel.

Pat Clancy
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,hplabs}
!tektronix!tekecs!patcl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #226
Date: 18 Dec 84 1330-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #226
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Dec 84 1330-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #226
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Dec 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 226

Today's Topics:

          Books - M.A. Foster & Gernsback & Story Request,
          Films - Quiz (2 msgs) & 2010 (6 msgs),
          Television - Star Trek,
          Miscellaneous - Rosebud

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwnorman@watrose.UUCP (mwnorman)
Subject: "M.A. Foster - I like him. Anyone else?"
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 13:23:19 MST

Hi! This my first attempt at getting something posted to the net, so
please be patient with me (i.e like if I've left anything out from
the header, break any ettiquette (sp?) rules, fart rudely, etc ...)

I'd like to know if anyone out there in net-land has heard of a SF
author by the name of M.A. Foster?  He/she (I don't know which) did
"Warriors of Dawn", "Game Players of Zan", "Waves" ... etc

In my opinion, this person is just a fantastic writer.  It seems to
me that he (in the generic-use-mode) must have a very solid
grounding in social pyschology AND math.  He likes most to play with
different societies which he constructs with great detail.  I don't
mean that there is a lot of volume there, it's just that what he
presents is so believable.  The characters are interesting as well.
He usually doesn't draw upon the usual North-American cultures when
he does the background history of these people (or planets).  Its
quite refreshing to see something very new and very good at the same
time.

Mike Norman (student-at-large - a little too large right now,
                                I've got to lose some weight.
                                Anyone out there want some?
                                Going cheap!
University of Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
...allegra!watmath!watrose!mwnorman - the allegra machine is
the only one that I know of that gets here.

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (e.leeper)
Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 08:19:36 MST

Evelyn made an error typing in my counter-editorial about Gernsback.
The sentence:
        All this convinces the writing critics that there is enough
        interest in science fiction that their readers will want to
        read about the field.
should have been at the end of the third to last paragraph, and the
last paragraph should read just:
        To blame Gernsback for the formation of the science fiction
        ghetto is like blaming Henry Ford for our country's
        dependence on petroleum.

                      (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                      Mark R. Leeper
                      ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl
[Mea culpa--ecl]

------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Here's the plot...
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 13:25:28 MST

I know this is a long shot, but...

At the bardic circle at Darkover Grand Council (Wilmington, DE;
Thanksgiving) someone sang a song that might have been called "The
Wild Hunt".  She said it was based on a story she had just had
published, but I don't know her name, the name of the story, or
where it was published.

The basic theme was the wild hunt from Celtic mythology.  The hunt
is a supernatural thing that sweeps through areas and tends to pick
up people along the way to join in random slaughter.  In this
particular case someone challenges the hunter, but I don't want to
say any more.

Now that I have become addicted to the song, I'm looking for a
pointer to the story.

Here are the first couple of verses to the song (hope I'm not
violating too many copyright laws here):

It's fifty score fine warriors at feasting in the hall,
And there was I, the Lord Idath, the chiefest of them all.
And it's fifty score fine warriors as brave as e'er were born,
And there was I, the Lord Idath, the wearer of the horn.

And as they feasted at the boar the wind blew wide the door.
The brightness of that e'er great hall was suddenly no more.
And up there rose a howling then like baying of a hound,
And all that fearless fifty score were frozen at the sound.

"The hunt! The hunt!" the people cried, "Oh hide yourselves away,
"For none who go abroad this night shall live to see the day."
The sleepless dead go far this night; the readied hounds awake.
No light nor darkness do they serve; they kill for killing's sake....

                                                  -Dragon
UUCP: ...seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl)
Subject: Leeper Film Quiz #3
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 07:35:58 MST

LEEPER FILM QUIZ #3

(Send replies to ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl, please.)

In what science fiction films are the following quotes?

1. "DA... Differential Analyzer... DA..."
2. "God bless Mrs. Ethel Shroak."
3. "I'm pulling the plug on myself."
4. "I've a whale of a tale to tell to you."
5. "It reminds me of my days in a red light district."
6. "Lucky.  Lucky.  Lucky."
7. "Me and my rhythm box."
8. "Nipples for men!"
9. "Operation Sand-dust."
10. "Operation Skyhook."
11. "Shit, and I was such a great guy, too."
12. "Snake servo-mechanism."
13. "There comes a time in every man's life when he can't believe
    his eyes."
14. "They tell me this Mexican food is terrific."
15. "To God there is no zero."
16. "We weren't programmed to land in the water."
17. "What sin could one man commit in a single lifetime to deserve
    this?"
18. "You may send rockets into space, but you're a menace on the
    highway."
19. "You're a brick."
20. "Your story's gotten bigger, kid."

                      (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                      Mark R. Leeper
                      ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl)
Subject: Leeper Film Quiz #4
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 07:36:23 MST

LEEPER FILM QUIZ #4

(Send replies to ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl, please.)

What in what science fiction films do the following names arise?

1. J.J. Adams
2. Victor Barbicane
3. Dr. Miles Bennell
4. Mitch Brenner
5. John Cabal
6. Scott Carey
7. Andre Delambre
8. Jack Driscoll
9. John Ellman
10. David Filby
11. Dr. Heywood Floyd
12. Jon Fredersen
13. Adam Hart
14. Pat Hendry
15. Ernest Hubbs
16. Prof. Oliver Lindenbrook
17. Freeman Lowell
18. Steve Martin
19. Dr. Russell Marvin
20. Cal Meachum
21. Miles Monroe
22. Cora Peterson
23. Billy Pilgrim
24. Dave Randell
25. Dr. Matthew Roney
26. Dr. Adam Royston
27. Dr. Janos Rukh
28. Steven Shorter
29. Winston Smith
30. Dr. Stephen Sorensen
31. Gideon Spilitt
32. Dr. Brian Stanley
33. Dr. Jeremy Stone
34. Phillip Strock
35. George Taylor
36. Dr. Alexander Thorkel
37. Dwight Towers
38. Sylvia Van Buren
39. Jason Webb
40. Maple White
41. Gordon Zellaby
                         (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                         Mark R. Leeper
                         ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: eric@milo.UUCP (Eric Bergan)
Subject: Re: 2010 review--non spoiler
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 06:36:55 MST

>Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against
>2001, one of the most influential movies of all time.  Perhaps it
>IS an unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every
>respect.

        Actually, I don't think it is unfair at all. They are
obviously reaping marketing benefits by being a sequel, they should
also be prepared to take their lumps in comparison.

                              eric
                              ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric

------------------------------

From: cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 08:31:42 MST

Another mistake in the film (other than Heywood Floyd knowing that
the monolith hadn't been discussed with the crew) is the lone EVA
pod in the docking bay of Discovery. I had always thought that there
were only 3 and if one was lost with Frank Poole, another when
Bowman had to enter the ship manually (ahem) and the last when
Bowman heads toward the monolith then why is that one there? The
suit without the helmet in the docking bay may also be a blooper
(shouldn't it be a helmet without a suit?) but I haven't seen 2001
in awhile.

------------------------------

From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 23:56:51 MST

As long as we're at it (the "mistakes" are about the most diverting
features of this fiasco) how about the scene when the space-walking
astronauts first approach the docking bay of the Discovery?  It's
covered with some kind of space dust, like dirty clay, and one of
their first actions is to brush the surface with their hands.  This
space dust is rather earthbound, for it doesn't scatter in a cloud
as you might expect (assuming that dust would settle on a spaceship
anyway) but acts remarkably like the dust on my coffee table, being
attracted to the surface, just like gravity.

/Steve Dyer
{decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA

------------------------------

From: eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: 2010 review review
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 18:19:48 MST

>   Much of the science of "2010" is questionable in the face of
> what we knew, know and are learning.  A new star appears in the
> solar system and the earth escapes without a tremor.  The Leonov
> embarks without enough fuel to either return or slow down.  They
> do "air braking" (without air) to slow Leonov as she whips around
> the planet and into a new orbit.  How's that for science friction.

> missed.  The Leonov doesn't depart without enough fuel.  The early
> departure from Jupiter is makes the kludge with Discovery
> necessary.  And "air braking" is not science fiction made up for
> the movie, it was even featured on the cover of Popular Science a
> year or so ago.

     First of all, the term is 'aerobraking'.  Yes it is possible
(we are studying it here at Boeing.  In fact, Dr. Dana Andrews, who
does aero-propulsion design, has a patent on the concept and was a
technical consultant for 2010.) No, it was not accurately portrayed
in the film.  A one-half orbit around Jupiter at cloud top level
takes 88.6 minutes.  In the film it is portrayed as taking 1-2
minutes.  The aerobrake trail would be too small to see on the scale
of Jupiter as a whole.

     Credit goes to the filmmakers for getting a reasonable design
for the aerobrake, a multiple-ballute type.  They got the color
right, it would be dark so as to radiate the absorbed heat flux.
You would probably jettison them as in the film.

     While on the subject of technical mistakes, the Discovery is
found rotating endwise.  Initially, the carousel stopping would
leave it spinning around its' long axis.  This is unstable and would
decay into the end-for-end rotation.  But, when you spin up the
carousel again, it wouldn't stop rotating end-for-end, it would be a
combination motion.  The spinning Discovery would also be pulling
about 5 g's at the command center.

     The apparent motion of the clouds on Jupiter works out to more
than escape velocity (good stiff breeze).  Your hair floats in zero-
gravity (see any shuttle tapes).  They probably knew about this one
but passed because of cost.  They did know that stars are not
visible in space when the sun or a planet is out, but felt the
audience would accept it better with stars.

     When they are escaping from Jupiter, it implodes just as they
burn out the Leonov's engines.  Surface escape from Jupiter is 67
kilometers/second (151,000 mph) in the few minutes since they
started to escape, their distance would have changed
insignificantly.  If Jupiter is as bright at Europa as the Sun is at
Earth, then Jupiter as seen from the Earth would be as bright as a
first-quarter moon.  In the daytime you would have a hard time
finding it.

Dani Eder / Boeing Aerospace Company / ssc-vax!eder / (206)773-4545

p.s. The aerobrake flight demonstration is scheduled (Congress
willing) for 1988. It won't be 'untried'.

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: 2001: How NOT to make a Movie
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 17:10:10 MST

Since others have impugned the value of Hugo Gernsback, I feel ready
to get off my chest something that's bothered me for years:

"2001" had a lot of faults as a movie, and spoiled a lot of other
movies and TV series by establishing some bad habits.  Period.

Kubrick was a good enough director and had good enough SFX that he
brought it off.  But 2001 set some rather damaging precedents:

--Half-hour worth of plot dragged into a 2+ hour movie
--Wooden, emotionless acting (OK, that's part of Kubrick's story,
but..)
--Slooooowwwww pacing, including long special-effects views and
what's really worse, actors' faces "spacing out" staring at those
scenes.

Certain movies and shows that suffered from the above bad habits
were the first Star Trek movie and an otherwise very well done TV
series called "The Starlost."  The latter was especially troubled by
slow pacing and spaced-out characters, although at least they showed
emotions.

Actually, maybe the real blame is on our culture for changing so
much in expectations.  2001 is from 1967, when LSD, Zen, and
introspection were big.  Today people want action, love scenes, and
cocaine rushes.  So when "Star Trek: The Movie" was made in 2001
style (actually done a lot better, in my opinion), our late 70's
reviewers blamed it for the same things they praised in 2001.

Lesson One:  Don't believe anything any critic says.
Lesson Two:  Don't believe anything another person says.
Lesson Three: Don't feel bound to what *you* thought five years ago,
unless you think you somehow transcend the pop culture of the moment
(we all think that, don't we?)

        mike k

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 84 23:41:08 PST (Tue)
Subject: Re: star trek
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>   In original query about 3D chess on Star Trek I asked about
>rules of movement(ie. different levels, attack boards...).  I have
>the star fleet technical manual(and medical), but it doesn't tell
>you about moving pieces on or off the attack boards or to other
>levels.
>   Actually it isn't just 3 level chess because the attack boards
>are half levels and can be move under the bottom and above the top.
>   I would expect this game to be much less complex than it
>appears; there aren't as many squares open to all pieces.  The
>attack boards use up a total of 16 squares.
>                                   [raig
>                                   cmacfarlane@bbnccj
>                                   617-497-2972
>
>PS. "The Courtmartial" is the only show I can remember that has
>     Spock playing it in the forground...

  In "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk and Spock are first seen
over a game of 3D chess (Kirk beats Spock!!), and in "Charley" (I
think that's the name), Spock and Charley play, after Charley cuts
off Spock's explanation of the game.  When Spock beats him in fewer
than 5 moves, Charley becomes enraged and melts down all the pieces
on the board.
  That's all I can remember offhand.  Can anybody add any more?

                        Alastair

PS. I think it was just "Courtmartial".

------------------------------

From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler)
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal - Rosebud?
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 07:32:08 MST

There were apparently three (3) Rosebuds.  One was burned for the
movie and the other two put back in storage as the scene went on the
first take.  Speilberg now has one of the sleds and some guy out on
Long Island has the other.  The Long Island sled was picked up at an
auction a number of year ago (that's years).  Speilberg got his from
someone else who was at the auction.  At least this was the story
that was banging around in the papers about a year ago in this area.

T. C. Wheeler

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #227
Date: 19 Dec 84 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #227
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Dec 84 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #227
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Dec 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 227

Today's Topics:

              Books - Bradley & M.A. Foster & Goble &
                      Vinge (2 msgs) & Gernsback,
              Films - Buckaroo Banzai,
              Radio - The Lord of the Rings (2 msgs),
              Television - The Twilight Zone (3 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 84  0057 PST
From: David M. Chelberg <DMC@SU-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Darkover

City of Sorcery  continuation of the free Amazons concerning
                 Magdalen Lorne

is a new book by MZB chronologically 7 years after Thendara House.

  - Dave Chelberg (DMC @SAIL)

------------------------------

From: wjr@utcs.UUCP (William Rucklidge)
Subject: Re: "M.A. Foster - I like him. Anyone else?"
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 22:34:31 MST

> FROM : mwnorman@watrose (Mike Norman - student-at-large; U of
> Waterloo)
> I'd like to know if anyone out there in net-land has heard of a SF
> author by the name of M.A. Foster?  He/she (I don't know which)
> did "Warriors of Dawn", "Game Players of Zan", "Waves" ... etc
> In my opinion, this person is just a fantastic writer.  It seems
> to me that he (in the generic-use-mode) must have a very solid
> grounding in social pyschology AND math.  He likes most to play
> with different societies which he constructs with great detail.  I
> don't mean that there is alot of volume there, its just that what
> he presents is so believable.  The characters are interesting as
> well.  He usually doesn't draw upon the usual North-American
> cultures when he does the background history of these people (or
> planets).  Its quite refreshing to see something very new and very
> good at the same time.

I haven't seen any work by M.A.Foster, but from the Science Fiction
Encyclopedia (1977), here is some more information:

FOSTER, M(ICHAEL) A(NTHONY) (1939-): American writer, former data
systems analyst and ICBM launch crew commander for the American Air
Force...MAF's slow but detailed constuction of the Ier culture and
language...marks his series out as one of potential importance to
the genre.

"You can always put something in a box."
This message brought to you with the aid of the Poslfit Committee.
William Rucklidge       University of Toronto Computing Services
{decvax,ihnp4,utcsrgv,{allegra,linus}!utzoo}!utcs!wjr

------------------------------

Date: Sat 15 Dec 84 15:22:57-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: The Kalevide, by Lou Goble

THE KALEVIDE    (c)1982, Bantam 0-553-22531-6

I strongly recommend this book to lovers of myth and fantasy.  Why?
Well, yes, the writing is better than mine.  Yes, it has plot,
action, characters, demons, locales, cryptic references, cursed
swords, and all the other hallmarks. But more importantly:

        It is itself.

This book is sideways from The Lord of the Rings and all that
followed it. It is a retelling of the "Kalevipoeg", the national
epic of Estonia, and as such has echos of the Finnish "Kalevala".
But it IS itself.  The hero, the Kalevide, is just outright stupid,
but he has heart.  He braves the underworld itself, he leads
gallantly, and in the end, Ukko sets his spirit as warden at the
door between death and life.  But he's clumsy, he falls asleep, he
forgets his Quest, and his story is altogether apart from the usual
run. The world is younger, simpler, and rawer; the magic is
unexpected; Viru, on the Amber Sea, is strangely transformed by
teachings, by foreigners, and by war.

Historians place this story in the thirteenth century. Lou Goble has
wisely moved it to a more abstract time, and a more formless world,
where words such as "epic" seem more truthful.  It's not a comedy,
and not as grim as "Hrolf Kraki's Saga", but it has more of these
than it has of Tolkein.

Don                             Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 14 Dec 84 8:05:47 EST
Subject: Mr. Slippery's back in print

After waythehell too long, Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES is back in
print as a trade paperback.  I forget the publisher; such books are
unwelcome in these offices.  But it's a story NO ONE on this network
should fail to read.  Much better than Varley's PRESS ENTER, which I
didn't buy for a moment (Varley obviously read The Hacker's
Dictionary and was a little too impressed) and one of the more
plausible speculations on the nature of 21st century networking.
Networking will go one of two ways, depending how successful we are
at creating artificial intelligences in the next forty years.
Vinge's vision is one.  Nobody has done the other yet, and if I
hurry I may be able to before Hogan does...

--Jeff Duntemann

The Pyroceram Rat

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 84  1759 PST
From: Hans Moravec <HPM@S1-A.ARPA>
Subject: True Names

The old edition of True Names by Dell (in Binary Star #5) seems to
be no longer available, but I saw an ad for a new, illustrated,
edition by Bluejay books in Analog a few months ago.  They also have
Vernor Vinge's new book, "The Peace War".
 True Names is about the new future (traditional space travel
stories are the old future - not obsolete, but incomplete).

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 23:07:16-EST
From: Janice <mdc.janice@mit-oz.arpa>
Subject: Song of the Derriere-Garde (Gernsback and Ghettoization)
Cc: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@UCB-VAX.ARPA

     "We do not like mainstream, because it is dumb.
     There's no sense of wonder, it's cheerless and glum.
     It's mundane and windy and tiresome too ...
     We've never read any, but know this is true."
                    -- from "The Song of the Derriere-Garde,"
                       by Arthur Hlavaty

Eyal Mozes is singing an old song, and one that is just as pointless
now as it was when first sung.

To class all of "mainstream" (what a useless word) fiction as glum
and depressing is to make the same mistake as "mundanes" do when
they put down all of science fiction as Westerns in spacesuits.
Sure, The World According to Garp is depressing.  It's extremely
depressing, and no one would suggest that someone who doesn't like
depressing fiction should read it.  (It does have other redeeming
values, such as a fine, ironic sense of humor and an interesting
portrait of a writer, but never mind.)  On the other hand, to name
merely the most recent "mainstream" novel I've read, take Alice
Walker's book The Color Purple.  (It won the Pulitzer Prize -- you
can't get much more mainstream.)  The book is depressing in spots,
yes, but on the whole it is a book about triumph, about overcoming
obstacles, about the ability of people to succeed and achieve
independence no matter what the odds, and about bonds between
people.  It even has its own version of "sense of wonder" -- a
wonder at nature, which can be at least as amazing as the works of
technology.  I could name others, but I won't here.  The point is
that to apply one set of adjectives to an entire class of fiction,
when that class is more a device of marketing than anything else, is
always a mistake.

     "We do not like Malzberg or Ballard or Lem,
     Silverberg, Tiptree, or any of them.
     Oh, can you imagine a fouler sin
     Than books where the heros do not always win?"
                     -- "The Song of the Derriere-Garde"

I don't like every one of the above-named authors.  Many people
don't.  However, those like Eyal who class all of them under the
rubric "New Wave" and therefore depressing and boring are missing
quite a lot.

Their first mistake is to misunderstand what the "New Wave" was
about.  (And to forget that it is basically over.)  Its purpose was
not to produce "depressing" stories -- as Eyal pointed out, Wells
and his descendants had been doing a good job of that, and even in
his beloved "Golden Age," there were depressing stories.  (No one
can tell me, for example, that Asimov's "Nightfall," one of The
Great Ghod Campbell's favorites, is not depressing.)  The purpose of
the New Wave was to bring literary standards to sf.

What do I mean by literary standards?  Use of language that is more
than pedestrian.  Rounded, real characters.  More of a theme than
"Goshwowboyoboy, isn't technology great?"  An understanding that
Sensawunda does not substitute for all of these things.

In many ways, the New Wave was a failure.  Much of the fiction
produced was not experimental, it was simply bad.  Some authors
decided to eliminate plot, rather than add to it.  Lots of pretty
words do not a story (or a novel) make.  But then, neither do lots
of pretty spaceships.

However, in a couple of important ways the New Wave was a success.
It helped finish the process, started by Campbell, of bringing
verisimilitude to sf characters.  One of the reasons Gernsback's
"Ralph ..." is so bad is that the characters spend half their time
marveling at all the technological wonders that surround them.  (How
many times do you turn to the guy at the next terminal and say,
"Aren't computers amazing?  And aren't we lucky to live in a world
where science has produced such wonders?"  And if you did, would
your neighbor be likely to reply, "Yes, and not only these
computers, but the television, that incredible device, make our
lives so much more enjoyable than they would have been without
science.")  You don't find that anymore.  Nor do you (often) find
the kind of pulp character Harry Harrison parodies in Bill, the
Galactic Hero.

The second mistake is to think that everything that Ellison, or
Bradbury (neither of whom is really a "New Wave" writer -- they
started writing too early for that), or [fill in you favorite modern
sf author] writes is depressing.  It's simply not true.  I'm not
going to get into any more flames on Ellison, or any particular
author, but I will continue to insist that not everything he writes
is depressing.  And no, they don't write "hardware" sf.  That's not
what they're after.  Sf can involve many kinds of speculation.

The third mistake is drawing too narrow a definition of the purpose
of literature.  The purpose of literature is not to cheer us up, or
to give us hope, or to be romantic, although it can do all of those
things.  Literature, good literature, tells us about ourselves.
What it tells us may be optimistic, or it may be depressing, and you
can select what books you read solely on those grounds if you
choose.  But then you will be missing a lot.  Life is often
depressing, and there are bad things in the world.  Literature at
its best can, rather than depress us further about life, help us get
a handle on it.

I don't like fiction that seems to have no aim other than depressing
the reader (in my opinion, most of Thomas Disch's work fits into
this category).  I do like fiction that tells me a truth, or many
truths, about myself and the rest of the world.  It's fine to escape
from time to time.  It's not so fine to think that is the only
purpose of literature.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 14:20 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai

Finally, some outspoken praise for Buckaroo Banzai (in #216 and
#217)!  Thanks, Jeff Meyer and Greg Taylor.

Until these messages appeared, I was mystified by the generally
lukewarm reception it's received in sf-lovers.  Granted, it's not
the best movie ever made (although in a forum where SW3, "A New
Hope", was once awarded this distinction, normal standards of
comparison can safely be suspended), but I found it to be witty,
inventive, absorbing, and, most of all ...

...incredibly rich in detail.  Friends who have seen BB five times
are still discovering new things both visually and aurally.  The
visual complexity of any given scene (inside Yoyodyne, for example,
or in John Whorfin's room at the Trenton Home for the Criminally
Insane) is overwhelming.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the movie has not done well
generally, considering that Fox has done an abysmal job of marketing
it, but I am disappointed that fans have given it such short shrift.
The irony here is that if (for instance) a Star Trek film were done
with such wit and intelligence, many fans would be making
comparisons to "Citizen Kane".

------------------------------

Date: 14 December 1984 22:39-EST
From: Mark W. Terpin <MWT @ MIT-MC>

Will the National Public Radio's 'Lord of the Rings' be broadcast in
the Boston area?  Not just children would like to hear it, or else
I'm a kid at heart...

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon 17 Dec 84 09:52:51-PST
From: Andy Freeman <ANDY@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: NPR's Lord of the Rings
To: dcohen%ecld@USC-ECL.ARPA

Many decent bookstores sell those tapes, so please buy them instead
of taping off the radio.

No, I'm not suggesting this because of the copyright notice, but
rather because I'm greedy.  If no one buys the tapes, there won't be
any new ones.  (NPR doesn't have the production budget to make those
tapes; there's a company behind it.)  Think of it as buying future
"taped books" for the little ones.

-andy

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 84 22:02:55 PST (Tue)
To: mike@rand-unix
Subject: Re: Spielberg's Amazing Tales
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

According to the December 1984 issue of STARLOG, "The Twilight Zone"
is planned to begin Fall 1985 on CBS.  Phil DeGuere (creator/
producer of Simon and Simon, co-creator/exec. producer of Whiz Kids,
and crafter of the Doctor Strange pilot) is heading the show.

"Amazing Stories" by Spielberg is mentioned, and it is different.
It will play on NBC.  They claim that Twilight Zone was NOT prompted
by Amazing Stories.  The only difference given is that Twilight Zone
will be somewhat scary: a 10pm show.  Amazing Stories will be
milder: shown at 8pm.

They say they may re-do some of the old episodes, but want the show
to appeal to modern children, and plan to rely heavily on
contemporary SF.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 09:03 CST
From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Return of the Twilight Zone
To: mike@RAND-UNIX.ARPA

Mike questioned the rumor about the return of the Twilight Zone
which I posted to sf-lovers some time back, so let me expand a bit.
The statement was made by both the producer of Simon and Simon and
his agent that he had bought the rights to the Twilight Zone, had a
deal to get it on the air, and was negotiating with the Serling
estate for the rights to old scripts.  This statement was made
publicly on the last day of the Cabrillo Mystery Writer's
Conference, and was made in the context of soliciting scripts from
the attending authors.  I have no idea what the status of the
various deals involved is, but the intent from the production
company side certainly seems clear.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 19:49:22-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Twilight Zone TV series

It is indeed a different series from AMAZING.  Read LOCUS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 05:16:25 PST
From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: Re: Michael Rubin: terminator and time travel (paradoxes)

This sounds like the paradox avoidance theory in a book I read some
years ago.  It was called "The Overlords of War", by Gerard Klein
(translated from some foreign language -- the name of John Brunner
comes to mind as translator but I don't have the book in front of
me).  If something happens to cause a paradox, a "timequake", a
series of oscillations in time, occurs (in what sense something of
this nature can be said to "occur" is not explained).  These
oscillations eventually damp themselves out in some way which avoids
the paradox -- and history is consistent again.  How wonderful.

                                        der Mouse

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 19-Dec  SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #228
Date: 19 Dec 84 0948-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #228
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Dec 84 0948-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #228
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Dec 1984    Volume 9 : Issue 228

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brust & Chalker & Ellison &
                        LeGuin & Modesty Blaise,
                Films - Freaks & Dune (3 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Boskone Filksong Contest

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 16 Dec 84 17:05:32-PST
From: Andrew Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: Brust's "Jhereg" & Nancy Connor
Reply-to: GIDEON@SU-SCORE.ARPA

I feel obliged to comment on Nancy Connor's (V9 #214) statement
concerning Steven Brust's "Jhereg" (and "Yendi", too I guess).  The
main character of these stories uses his familiar, which is a
dragon-like creature, we assume, to survive in his world.

Born a noncitizen (wrong species), hated by the majority of the
population, pushed into the "house" of organized crime, Vlad Taltos
hasn't a good deal going for him.

Vlad's primary use of his familiar is information ("who notices a
jhereg flying above the city") and protection.  His original "line
of crime" is assassin, but he is only killing members of a species
who take great pleasure in beating and killing his kind.  In fact,
he originally chose this line of work because of the treatment he
received at the hands of citizens.

There is more 'justification', but that may yield too much of the
plot.

Vlad is *NOT* a bad guy.  He is even told at one point, "For an
assassin, you're a real sweetheart."

Andy Gideon
gideon@su-score.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 20:53 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Masters of Flux & Anchor

The concluding book in Jack Chalker's Soul Rider series is out and
it is very good.  The book is "Masters of Flux and Anchor".  This is
the third book in the series and concludes the plot line started in
"Spirits of Flux and Anchor".

Anchors are regions of normality surrounded by Flux.  The Fluxlands
are areas covered with a "magic ether" (forgive me but I don't know
how to describe it better).  The Flux can be manipulated by
"wizards" who are feared by the people in Anchors.  The books are
about conflicts between different groups of these "wizards".  Some
of which want to open some gates to other universes even though
legend has it that horrible enemies wait behind the gate.

In the third book a group of people in Anchor overthrow a matriarchy
and start conditioning people to believe that men are made to rule
and women are to be housewives and pets.

All of this is done rather better in the book than I can describe
here.  Jack Chalker has always has a great way of inventing and
describing unusual environments, and I believe in this book he has
finally been able to create a ending to a book which is good enough
to match the body.

This series is excellent!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1984 08:20:47-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Ellison question....

     All that talk of Harlan Ellison inspired me to read some more
of his stuff, and since the general consensus seems to be that
DEATHBIRD STORIES is his best collection, I decided I should start
with it.  However, it's not all that easy to find anymore. I've seen
a few copies of the Bluejay edition, but they've all been pretty
battered.  Then I came across an ad for the Science Fiction Book
Club which listed DEATHBIRD STORIES as one of the titles you could
get upon joining.

     So, my question is: Has anyone out there seen the SF Book Club
edition? Is it drawn from the Bluejay edition or from some earlier
version? The reason I'm concerned is that the Bluejay edition
contains a note about how all earlier editions were not quite as
Ellison wanted them to be, and about how the Bluejay version has
been specifically revised and updated.
     Thanks in advance for any help.
                                     --- Jeff Rogers
                                         jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 84 16:21:05 PST (Mon)
Subject: Ursala K. Le Guin's "The Eye of the Heron"
From: "Tim Shimeall" <tim@uci-icsd>

This book is well worth reading, perhaps several times.  There are
two groups of people occupying a small area on an otherwise
uninhabited planet.  The first group, The City folk, is the
decendants of criminals sentenced to the planet when it was a penal
colony.  The second group (The Shanty Towners) is the decendants of
a group of civil disobedience advocates exiled fifty years after the
first group arrived.  LeGuin provides a VERY believable portayal of
these two groups and their interactions.  There are not many
two-dimensional characters, which is rare in a book discussing such
widely divergent lifestyles.  Those who like "liberterian S-F"
should really get into this book, but most of the rest of us will
find it worthwhile as well.
                                Tim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 20:45 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Modesty Blaise

Modesty Blaise --
Mysterious Press has just released three American Editions of
Modesty Blaise books.  Modesty is a freelance spy and former crook
of sorts who tends to get involved in various criminal and
governmental hassles.

The books are not really Science Fiction, but they are usually
imported into the better Science Fiction stores.  The stories do
involve a little speculation, usually of the ESP, precognition
variety.  The books are crime/action/suspense and always involve
some well-described fighting with a variety of weapons from swords
to hand-to-hand.

These three books are not new, but haven't been available in
American editions for some time and some have never been available
in paperback.  The released books are:
  Sabre Tooth
  I, Lucifer
  A Taste for Death

The book also says that the first book, Modesty Blaise, and The
Xanadu Talisman are also available.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1984 08:21:40-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Film request....

     Does anyone know if Todd Browning's 1930's film "Freaks" is
available on videotape? If so I'd appreciate any info you have
concerning manufacturer, distributor, etc.
     Again, thanks in advance.
                                    --- Jeff Rogers
                                        jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 18 Dec 84 11:29:54-PST
From: Dave Combs <COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: DUNE, one more time

Along with what seems like half the population of the United States,
I went to see DUNE last week.  Though I didn't read the Newsweek on
Campus reviews mentioned in several earlier notes, I must say that I
agreed with them.
  This movie appears to be a "lets see how many high points of the
book we can cram into a little over 2 hours" type of movie.
Characters are never developed, except in a very superficial sense.
Various terms from the book are thrown in, with no explanation, then
never used again.  This "facial infection" business with the Baron
was totally unnecessary, unless you are really into grotesque
effects.  The sound effects, which I heard in a theater with a 70mm
screen and Dolby, were fine but, as various people have mentioned,
were loud enough to be painful at several points.  Finally, the
narration method of hearing a character's thoughts as they were
viewed on the screen was rather distracting and didn't seem to
explain anything that wasn't reasonably obvious to anyone paying
attention.
  Now to the good parts.  First, the plot does, with some minor
exceptions including the "biblical" rainstorm at the end, stick very
close to the book.  The sandworms, while not exactly what I had
envisioned, were at least interesting.  Finally, the people I went
with who hadn't read the book said that the movie was a good
adventure/battle film, though they agreed the sound was way too
loud.
   As far as I'm concerned, it wasn't as bad as it could have been,
it wasn't NEARLY as good as it could have been, but it definitely
wasn't worth $6 to stand in line for 2 hours to see.

  Dave Combs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 14:08 EST
From: Henry Nussbacher <HJNCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: DUNE

First let me state where I am coming from. I read all the Dune
books, enjoyed them and have been patiently awaiting the movie for 2
years ever since I heard it being produced.  I saw some TV reviews
and read some reviews and basically discounted these reviews because
I felt that the reviewer had never read any of the books.  I felt if
you don't read the books you will miss out on what is unsaid in the
movie.  I went into the movie on Sunday night with a positive
attitude, intending to enjoy it.  (I have enjoyed all the Star Wars
epics and the Star Trek movies and episopes (some more than
others)).

I have never been so let down in my life.  The theater was a good
theater but it appeared that everyone seeing it was smoking some
weed in order to "appreciate" it more.  I scanned the theater and
saw many single men and guys in teams (looking and talking like
programmers, incidentally).  Not very many women came out to the
theater where I was.

The movie stank!  There was no characterizations and the special
effects were not all that good either.  I squirmed in my chair
keeping track of the time and hoping that the movie would end.  This
past week I have seen "2010 and "The Terminator" and "Dune" is
clearly at the end of the list.  I hope to see "Starman" tonight and
I know whatever quality it is, it will far exceed anything "Dune"
had to offer.

Henry Nussbacher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 1984  18:11 EST
From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Dune

Micro-review: gag.  yucko.  blech.

A fair number of major wincers, including bullets than penetrate
shields, lasguns carried as standard weapons, rain on Arrakis
(there's a little justification for this one, but ...); and a fair
number of loose ends: the Atreides family atomics appear
miraculously when needed, without the slightest hint of the
Convention, Thufir Hawat is left hanging on Giedi Prime, the Shadout
Mapes appears and vanishes without accomplishing anything, the movie
ends before the book, etc.

I think the biggest problem was the director/writer's apparent
desire to make Dune comprehensible to people who had never read the
book.  Most of the significant pieces of dialogue get repeated over
and over again in Paul's thoughts, and a few images (the opening
hand, the dripping water) that worked reasonably well the first time
were replayed into oblivion.  It didn't seem to help much, as one
person I know who had not read Dune came out of the movie
understanding far less than when he went in, having only a few
buzzphrases ("traveling without moving", "the sleeper must awaken")
to show for his $4.75.

Lotta blood though.  That's easy enough to figure out.  Ideally, the
movie will make enough money off the hack-slash-and-pull-your-heart-
plug set that someone will try making a decent remake twenty years
from now.  Even if that never comes, it's probably best to wait.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 13:38 EST
From: "J. Spencer Love" <JSLove@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Boskone Filksong Contest

The New England Science Fiction Association (NESFA) is sponsoring a
Filksong contest associated with Boskone XXII, its annual science
fiction convention.  Boskone is a major east cost regional, with
expected attendance of about 2500.

Filksongs may owe their name to a misprint in a WorldCon program
some years ago.  Readers of MAD magazine are familiar with the
concept: new words to old tunes.  Many are humorous, but some tell
stories, are sprinkled with science fiction trivia, or deal with the
fannish condition.

The genre has attracted some singers and folk writers of
considerable talent.  Songbooks and performance tapes are
commercially available, which cater to different market segments.
There are songs about Star Trek and Star Wars, songs about
conventions, songs about the SCA, songs which are complete original
science fiction stories, and folk songs about space exploration and
development.

The NESFA Hymnal is a songbook with a large collection of "old
favorites".  Most of the songs in it use tunes that are widely
known.  The filksong contest is one way of finding "new favorites"
which could populate a second volume of the Hymnal.  The advent of
computerized music typesetting means that the second volume can
contain more obscure or original tunes, but emphasis is still on
singability.  The prizes in the contest are symbolic: ribbons and
possible notoriety.

NESFA is a non-profit organization, run by volunteers.  Surplus
income is used to make possible new ventures, such as NESFA Press
books, and as protection against the possibility that a blizzard
some February would cancel a Boskone with large financial liability.
Consequently, no prize money or song royalties are possible.

Contest rules:
 1.  Anyone may enter.
 2.  Send as many songs as you like.
 3.  Either the words, or the tune, or both must be the original
     work of the submitter(s).  Please include a copyright notice
     if you want one.  Material by someone else must be
     attributed, at least to a source.  Adaptations of someone
     else's words to another someone else's tune can't be judged.
 4.  Submissions may not have been published in any songbook,
     fanzine or prozine before January 1st, 1984.
 5.  In an effort to give as many prizes to deserving entries as
     possible, and to encourage as many types of entries as we
     can, we will select categories after all entries are
     received, and give a first prize and honorable mention(s) in
     each category.
 6.  No judge will judge his or her own entry in the contest.
 7.  If you wish to enter an obscure, difficult or original tune,
     then either score or a cassette tape would be appreciated,
     since we may decide otherwise that judging the entry is too
     difficult.  Recorded evidence of inability to sing will not
     hurt your chances of winning.
 8.  To enter, send your lyrics by computer mail to
         JSLove@MIT-Multics.ARPA
     or send (typed?) lyrics, music and/or tape to
         NESFA Filksong Contest
         Box G, MIT Branch Post Office
         Cambridge, MA  02139
 9.  The deadline for posting lyrics is 2 January 1985.  If you
     send by network mail, thus saving the effort of keyboarding
     the songs at this end, the deadline is 14 January 1985.  The
     deadline for posting cassettes or scores for network mailed
     entries is 14 January 1985.  Entries will be acknowledged.
10.  Winners will be announced at the opening ceremonies of
     Boskone XXII on Saturday 16 February 1985.  If the entrant
     is present, the ribbon will be presented.  Otherwise the
     award will be mailed.
11.  We will return cassettes and other posted materials if
     adequate return postage is enclosed.
12.  Entering a song gives NESFA permission to use it in a future
     NESFA hymnal.  Your copyright notice (if any) and your
     attribution will be preserved.  However, if part of your
     entry is protected by someone else's copyright, that will
     not disqualify the entry.  To publish that part as well,
     NESFA would have to obtain permission from the third party.

There is not time to process requests for additional information by
U.S. Mail.  However, requests send via network mail will be answered
the first week in January.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


